# Law and Grace



## barryl (Jun 9, 2013)

"Mixing Law and Grace" This is happening everywhere. Time to get back to Sound Doctrine!    Law- Condemnation, Grace-Liberty. I know this will be a edifying discussion.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 9, 2013)

Time to pull out Paul's letter written to the churches in Galatia.

Gal 3:3 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 9, 2013)

barryl said:


> "Mixing Law and Grace" This is happening everywhere. Time to get back to Sound Doctrine!    Law- Condemnation, Grace-Liberty. I know this will be a edifying discussion.



For those that don't know grace; the law/works is much easier. All one would have to do is impress other people, whether this is feeding the homeless or cutting a big check for the church offering. Making " going to church" a social status instead of a worship session. Church meetings should be all about the Lord and raising him up..I don't even like when the church recognizes my birthday on the lords day...Im only alive because of Him, He deserves all the honor.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 9, 2013)

There is much said about law and grace that is unproductive I think. Lots of christians use the "law" to paint each other as "works" targets and somehow find in grace a way to pelt their brothers and sisters with stones.

After reading Pauls letters a little bit, I now perhaps understand that he is using the "law" to mean a return or looking back to the old covenant by new believers, or the churches which he was the spiritual father( Hebrews for example).

 The cross or Jesus crucified had cut off the old covenant of the law of sacrifice. God's people no longer needed to purify themselves in the pools of the temple i order to offer sacrifice for example. That old mind set was now gone. Those who believed on him, Jesus crusified, were made clean.

 And in the new covenant of Grace, for Jesus' sacrifice a new mind set was in play, especially that believers recieved the Holy Spirit into their selves individual and corporately (as the church). God through the Holy Spirit... walked out of the Temple and for the Holy Spirit made man again ( believers) his Temple much like Adam and Eve had been...perhaps...

The curious thing about the new covenant of Grace, I suppose was that believers were made free in the world for their  doings or works as servants! and sanctified ( made spiritually healthy) individually for the spiritual foods offered by the new body of Christ which was the church.

Faith was now making life with God visible and tangible and surprising... Folk that were nobodies last week were prophecying. Peace was no longer hope and the accident of mercy, but the deliberate object and practice of justice-- the will of God.

 The scriptures opened up like springs to a desert people. The meals and feasts of the saints were now the fruits of the cross, and not animal sacrefices such as pass over lambs and the like.  The Lords Supper was  that fruit feeding the hearts and as seed planted there it grew and raised the cross again and again and the Good News again and again all over the world.

Going back to the old covenant of the law of sacrefice was a sin-- in the light of what was now know to the believers. Going forward  with the covenant of grace and life with the Holy Spirit was choosing the tree of life... again.  Now for the cross the old covenant really condemned. The law was not "works" it was missing the boat---eh Noah? Christ crucified for Paul was not just the redeeming work of Jesus...it was the world turned on its ear and tuned into Love. A new world and new heavens had been created by the Holy Spirit, by God, by Jesus....again and it was/ is sound.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 10, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> There is much said about law and grace that is unproductive I think. Lots of christians use the "law" to paint each other as "works" targets and somehow find in grace a way to pelt their brothers and sisters with stones.
> 
> After reading Pauls letters a little bit, I now perhaps understand that he is using the "law" to mean a return or looking back to the old covenant by new believers, or the churches which he was the spiritual father( Hebrews for example).
> 
> ...



Thar it is.  I agree with your thoughts.
Most people who are "accused" of being "salvation through works" believers aren't that at all.  People just like to throw rocks.  No No:


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## barryl (Jun 10, 2013)

*Works*



gordon 2 said:


> There is much said about law and grace that is unproductive I think. Lots of christians use the "law" to paint each other as "works" targets and somehow find in grace a way to pelt their brothers and sisters with stones.
> 
> After reading Pauls letters a little bit, I now perhaps understand that he is using the "law" to mean a return or looking back to the old covenant by new believers, or the churches which he was the spiritual father( Hebrews for example).
> 
> ...


I think Paul said it best in Gal. Ch. 2 when he rebuked Peter "face to face" when he was eating with the Gentiles and the Judiaizers caught him doing it. {The Apostle to the Jews}Peter, had a lot of trouble understanding that God had turned to the Gentiles.{Acts Ch. 10} Christ fulfilled the Law. The best example I have ever heard was by a Bible Believing Preacher,"Because The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law, I can do anything I want to, but because I have the Holy Spirit living inside me, I DON'T want too." There are to many examples today of using the Mosaic Law to try to control{put fear} into people.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 10, 2013)

barryl said:


> I think Paul said it best in Gal. Ch. 2 when he rebuked Peter "face to face" when he was eating with the Gentiles and the Judiaizers caught him doing it. {The Apostle to the Jews}Peter, had a lot of trouble understanding that God had turned to the Gentiles.{Acts Ch. 10} Christ fulfilled the Law. The best example I have ever heard was by a Bible Believing Preacher,"Because The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law, I can do anything I want to, but because I have the Holy Spirit living inside me, I DON'T want too." There are to many examples today of using the Mosaic Law to try to control{put fear} into people.



Wow.


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## StriperAddict (Jun 10, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Wow.


 
Easy bro. I'm sure barryl is a Rom 6:1 & 2 kinda guy





Great discussion.

I'd really like to hear if folks ever read Tim McVey's "GraceWalk" or Brennin Manning's "The Ragamuffin Gospel", as points in them would warm the cockles of many a worn out believer struggling with this subject.  It may jus lite an unquenchable fire 

just my 2 euros


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## centerpin fan (Jun 10, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> I'd really like to hear if folks ever read Tim McVey's "GraceWalk" or Brennin Manning's "The Ragamuffin Gospel", as points in them would warm the cockles of many a worn out believer struggling with this subject.  It may jus lite an unquenchable fire



Reading it now.  Having a hard time getting through it.


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## barryl (Jun 10, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Wow.


Can anyone say, Legalism ?

Hey Little Hank, why didn't you highlight the whole sentence?


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## Israel (Jun 10, 2013)

Anything...at all...that my soul comforts itself by saying "I have done thus and so, I have the ability to stand now" will find itself...soon and very soon...on its face and spiraling downward. 

We need not even resort to recalling stone tablets...we can make laws, and will until set free, of almost anything.

Oops, do I pray "without ceasing?"

Oops, "am I thankful in all things?"

Oops..."how much "assembling" is enough?"

Oops..."have I sold all, given to the poor, gone into all the world...?"

We will...and must...all...each of us..."be" according as our revelation of our God...has formed us.

How does the God who is kind to the ungrateful..."be" that way?
How does he "be" according to a lack of appreciation...unaffected?

How can he not only tell us to love our enemies...but "be" that way...as the one who loves those who revile him?

I live in a world of barter and trade...if I do this...you will do...or give me some of what I need from you. Who and how...is the one who gives all before he is even asked?
How can he "be" that way?

I think it was Gordon who asked  "What is the proper use of grace"? Could it be to eventually be able to grow to see it all?
And in so seeing...show?


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## Ronnie T (Jun 10, 2013)

barryl said:


> I think Paul said it best in Gal. Ch. 2 when he rebuked Peter "face to face" when he was eating with the Gentiles and the Judiaizers caught him doing it. {The Apostle to the Jews}Peter, had a lot of trouble understanding that God had turned to the Gentiles.{Acts Ch. 10} Christ fulfilled the Law. The best example I have ever heard was by a Bible Believing Preacher,"Because The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law, I can do anything I want to, but because I have the Holy Spirit living inside me, I DON'T want too." There are to many examples today of using the Mosaic Law to try to control{put fear} into people.



God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?(lol, there ya go Striper)





Ronnie T said:


> Wow.





barryl said:


> Can anyone say, Legalism ?
> 
> Hey Little Hank, why didn't you highlight the whole sentence?



You said:  Because The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law, I can do anything I want to, but because I have the Holy Spirit living inside me, I DON'T want too." 

*Hank says:  Because Jesus Christ, in His death on the cross, paid the price for all the sins of the world; and because of my faith and belief in His death and resurrection, I am no longer under bondage of the Law.  The bondage of the Law no longer exist.  My salvation is in Christ and His blood.  I have been clothed in Christ.  I might(will) sin in my life, but rather than being condemned by the Law, I am forgiven and strengthen by my Lord, and by God's Spirit which abides in me.


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## barryl (Jun 11, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?(lol, there ya go Striper)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's good to know that we are saved through faith. 1 Cor. 15:1-4, the Good news{Gospel}. Eph. 2:8-9, The results of mixing Mosaic Law and Grace, Gal. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.  KJV AV


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## StriperAddict (Jun 11, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Reading it now. Having a hard time getting through it.


Interesting. I'd love to get your gleanings.
Me, I think it's one of the best eye(heart) opening works on grace I've ever read.



Israel said:


> (1) I live in a world of barter and trade...if I do this...you will do...or give me some of what I need from you.
> 
> (2) Who and how...is the one who gives all before he is even asked?
> How can he "be" that way?


Priceless.
(1) Indeed, we just may project that kind of understanding back to heaven... and to our hurt. A form of short-sightedness that I confess I've succomed to at times.  
There is no bartering, for redemption's reward is complete in Him!

(2)  What giving - grace indeed! It's been said the greatest words in the scriptures come from the Father's response to his returning home prodigal son (Lk 15:20):
"... while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and <SUP class=footnote value='[b]'></SUP><SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>embraced him and kissed him."
What compassion!
Ought we not be "moved that the father didn't cross examine the boy, bully him, lecture him on ingratitude, or insist on any high motivation? He was so overjoyed at the sight of his son that he ignored all the canons of prudence and parental discretion"
 and simply welcomed him home - a gracious father, taking him back just the way he was.
And this boy was coming back for the main reason of ... survival! He wasted everything the father gave him - and yet,
even in the thought to "barter" with dad...
even thinking he would become a slave because of his actions,
the father's welcoming response is one we'd do well to consider:
For upon our own returns from that far country,
in whatever degree we find ourselves fallen,
great or small... 
the theologians and legalists will sift that all out we can be sure...
but yet, the Greater One still calls...
still beckons and bids us home.

Tell me, should we have to sift our own heart an over analyze all our intentions...
before we return "home"?
Abba just wants us to arrive.
Tarry should we, until the purity comes again to heart?
Father alone does the washing by the life of His very on Son,
freely.

It's amazing that even if the boy, _or US_, should nurse a secret "nostalgia" for that far country as we return, 
the father still falls on our neck and kisses us!!


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## Israel (Jun 11, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> Interesting. I'd love to get your gleanings.
> Me, I think it's one of the best eye(heart) opening works on grace I've ever read.
> 
> 
> ...



"out of your belly shall flow rivers of living water..."
I am overwhelmed...yet...I breathe...I breathe...

You smell of honeysuckle, brother...


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## gordon 2 (Jun 11, 2013)

Israel said:


> "out of your belly shall flow rivers of living water..."
> I am overwhelmed...yet...I breathe...I breathe...
> 
> You smell of honeysuckle, brother...



It's Sharon Flower.  As pink is to fuchia (StriperAddicts shirts...) , honeysuckle is to Sharon Flower.


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## StriperAddict (Jun 12, 2013)

We emerge from captivity only because we see.
The law held us for a ransom we could have never paid,
but the law did someting else...
Described the bondage.

In order to free the captive, one must name the captivity.

And our Divine Jailbreaker/Lover of our soul did that and took us into that which is so far greater than what the law could never do -

Enter us in the forever Life and recieve the riches of His grace. 


---
Now on this honeysuckle thing...  well, bless you both. It's good, says His word, that our hearts be strengthened in his grace...   

You fellows and so many more here do that when I drop on in!

I enjoy our time serving one another in the word, in the Lord, Psalm 133:1-3


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## StriperAddict (Jun 12, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> As pink is to fuchia (StriperAddicts shirts...) , honeysuckle is to Sharon Flower.


 
Are you referring to the shirt I was wearing when I was operating a 50 Cal Sniper Rifle ??  
It was "salmon", not pink!   

Besides, anyone who can fire a 50 and pick off targets 1/2 mile away can wear whatever shirt they want!


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## gordon 2 (Jun 13, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> Are you referring to the shirt I was wearing when I was operating a 50 Cal Sniper Rifle ??
> It was "salmon", not pink!
> 
> Besides, anyone who can fire a 50 and pick off targets 1/2 mile away can wear whatever shirt they want!



: Col 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


You do have a point and now it is salmon. geesh...


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## barryl (Jun 13, 2013)

*Justification*

Do we really understand the significance of "Justification"? In the book of Romans as well as Galatians Justification is spoken of, even the book of Acts. There are Churches today that won't even teach this part of the Salvation Doctrines. To Justify, means "to declare righteous by God." Romans 4:3-5  3-For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4- Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5- But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteouness. Gal. 3: 22-29  Acts 13:38-39   38- Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethern, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39- And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Mixing law and grace just won't work.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 13, 2013)

barryl said:


> Do we really understand the significance of "Justification"? In the book of Romans as well as Galatians Justification is spoken of, even the book of Acts. There are Churches today that won't even teach this part of the Salvation Doctrines. To Justify, means "to declare righteous by God." Romans 4:3-5  3-For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4- Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5- But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteouness. Gal. 3: 22-29  Acts 13:38-39   38- Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethern, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39- And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Mixing law and grace just won't work.



Paul! Paul! It takes patience to love Paul. 

Today we ( some) are justified from all things. In the old covenant some were justified for some things--which they did...because Moses told them to.

I am beginning to write and read scripture like a calvanist! " All don't mean all, all the time, y'all. "  Scarry!

Ok, I'll put my ordinary hat.

 It is very difficult, even for "saved" christians to be rid of all their counter productive vanities. Some vanities are perhaps just good self- esteem, so perhaps some vanities are good. But we have lots of " worldly vanities". And by wordly, I don't mean of the flesh, I mean that belong to the world outside the kingdom as per the Gospel. Example, learning to serve others and ourselves is often a long "learning how to balance the bycicle" experience.

 ( I actually put my fist into the fender via the head light of my father's 1957 chevy's as I was trying to learn to ride the first CCM bycicle he had brought me for my birthday. As I pushed off the front steps my handle bars magically ended up where I did not what to go, which is were I was looking! Wow! He did not say a word...)

So the righteous in the old covenant were driving were they were told to. In the newer covenant we have to look were we are going.... we have to look, learn and choose from our hearts, from scripture, from church, from the Holy Spirit....
etc


And this. The trinity. God-->Holy Spirit--> Jesus--> Holy Spirit-->Jesus--> God--> Holy Spirit -->Jesus-->Holy Spirit-->Jesus--> God...  Now say I'm to any one person in faith am I justified? I think so. But to know the three persons our spirituality is fuller in the justification scheme. The face of God to all is a lot closer than it was in the old covenant.

So we are justified "from all things". Our spiritual tether is off. We walk a little more like Adam did. We have lost our way of climbing hills  fallin on our "all fours". We are justified with a little more understanding....we are now fit to climb mountains upright and to look down on the valley.

We hope in faith as the ancients hoped. But we hope for a different day of the Lord. We have been taken back, we have been grafted in. But from the mountains, oh we look down on His valley! It is still not His. But our hope: Someday for us--- he will take it back.

 So we are justified with perhaps a little more spiritual smarts, but... we for our hope are just as justified as Noah or David, or...the man I was 40 yrs ago....I've said enough....


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## Israel (Jun 13, 2013)

Do we find it a bit awkward...well..maybe not awkward, but unusually apparent that when we speak of the Lord...it is always 
in his presence?
To speak to "you" about him as the sort of absent party we are discussing is getting, well...yes....here, awkward fits. 
I think as I see and hear more of the Lord through each of you...it is exposing a false premise I have embraced and operated under.
(With an aside.."did I phrase that easily and rightly enough, Lord?)
You see, daily, I am found speaking this or that about the Lord...but in my usual manner with most, as though he were indeed absent...for in my mind...to a great extent...he "appears" to be so from the thoughts of many. Rare but precious it is when I find a patient (usually more so than co workers) that are comfortable with the Lord being spoken "of"...and together we often join in a combined recognition of Him, either by short prayer or praise.

I am glad to be discovering that the Lord was never...is never "abstract". Perhaps when I am fully convinced as to that of which Gordon speaks, I shall no longer operate according to the vanity of my mind...but that the Lord's face truly is as close to each as it is to any.
 And perhaps then is discovered the reality of the truth found here:
Heb_8:11  And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 
 Perhaps it is the slowest one for whom the Lord is waiting...patiently.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 13, 2013)

Isreal!

Perhaps the first will be the last, and the last the first.

When Jesus talks of his Father in him....and then makes me a brother, he makes me sit on a alpine hill with the prophets where I am a guest to their kindness. They are the camp cooks and councellors. By day, we climb to survey.  In the evenings Jesus brings the wine. We break bread and search the skys for odd and old chariots of fire. Elijah is a bit like Uncle Si which takes the edge of moody Moses. We laugh alot.

I fully expect that one day you and all on Woody's will be there just a little ahead of me and from where we will all meet as one witness to the new tranfiguration that shall provide that all know Him and Him no longer a mystery as it was in the days of our old vanities, our old covenants--when we strived to be back to Adam.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 13, 2013)

I seem to hear and see a lot of discussion lately on the subject of mixing law and grace.  But in my personal life of meeting and knowing thousands of Christians, I don't believe I've ever come across a Christian who believed law and grace belonged together.

Salvation is a personal experience.  Individual salvation cannot be dissected in a University science lab.  And a church leader cannot maintain a list of all those who have been granted salvation.
The granting of salvation belongs to the Lord.  And as has already been pointed out, the Lord is looking into my face as I type these words.  What does Jesus say about salvation?  Jesus said, "If I am your Lord, I grant unto you salvation".  And Jesus knows who looks to Him as Lord.
With all of our searching and battling for which belief is righteous and which is not, in the final analysis it becomes "Is Jesus my Lord?".  The "truth" is also vital for Jesus said: "The truth shall make you free".  But don't you think a journey to this truth will always lead to Jesus as Lord?

It isn't about who's the smartest or who has all the right answers?  Don't you believe it's about Lordship?

"From the least to the greatest"
Heb_8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 14, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I seem to hear and see a lot of discussion lately on the subject of mixing law and grace.  But in my personal life of meeting and knowing thousands of Christians, I don't believe I've ever come across a Christian who believed law and grace belonged together.



But Ronnie, strawmen are so much more fun to fight than real enemies.


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## Israel (Jun 14, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> But Ronnie, strawmen are so much more fun to fight than real enemies.



Ha!
Amen.
I ain't met a strawman yet over whom I cannot prevail. After all, I am his maker...I know all his weaknesses...and I designed him to show my strength.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2013)

Mixing law and grace....yes Christians do it. Everyone that says you are saved by grace....but then can lose it by not following the law. I've had a many people use this example, " He was saved then went out and got drunk and had an accident that killed someone." They go on to ask, " Do you believe God would let someone like this in heaven" ? 
 I always answer yes! I believe God knows everything that is going to happen in our life, He knew it when He hung on the cross for me, and He knew it when He saved me. None of us are perfect or deserving of the salvation that God sheds down on us.


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## StriperAddict (Jun 14, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Paul! Paul! It takes patience to love Paul.


Hahaha! Amen indeed! You should hear my wife...  she's gonna have words with that fella LOL 



gordon 2 said:


> We walk a little more like Adam did.


Though we "see thru the glass darkly", yes! An even bigger amen! 

The past two days have been crazy/challenging for this clay.  Us guys may well not multi-task like our beloved sisters and I've had more issues on the plate at work than I can number.  It even felt like I was "out of touch", if you get my driftwood.

But when I talked to Liberty (my wife, not principle, although threre's a neat message in sayin that ) we both saw that it was indeed His grace that got me thru, 
that special touch that, without it I'd be looking like the wrek of the Hespress!
Sans humor...
His touch, when seen, when opened (I remind myself again & again it's a gift)...
is better than - well, you name it!  Indescribable ...   ! 
Bless the Name of the Lord  !


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 14, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> Hahaha! Amen indeed! You should hear my wife...  she's gonna have words with that fella LOL
> 
> 
> Though we "see thru the glass darkly", yes! An even bigger amen!
> ...



Ya'll don't have a child named Justice do you? I can see it when Justice becomes a teenager, trying to keep balance.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 14, 2013)

I don't think Christians mix law & grace for salvation purposes but mix them for "sanctification." 
I haven't got that for into those processes like sanctification & justification to honestly know that much about how the law or works plays a part in our way of life. I would say it isn't a part of our salvation. Just to let all know, I wouldn't have said that a year ago.
Anyway  do ya'll think the law is a part of our sanctification?
Here is somthing I was reading:

Paul In Romans 6:14  states that as believers we are "no longer under law but under grace." This clearly teaches that law is not used as a saving or a sanctifying prescript for believers . Some wrongly misinterpret this and have us believe that it says "you are not under the law for salvation, but are under the law for sanctification." This is to misuse Scripture and ignore the context. Paul in his writings conveys a whole, unified law system and not just parts, rarely does the context show otherwise. 

http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd7.htm


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## Ronnie T (Jun 14, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Mixing law and grace....yes Christians do it. Everyone that says you are saved by grace....but then can lose it by not following the law. I've had a many people use this example, " He was saved then went out and got drunk and had an accident that killed someone." They go on to ask, " Do you believe God would let someone like this in heaven" ?
> I always answer yes! I believe God knows everything that is going to happen in our life, He knew it when He hung on the cross for me, and He knew it when He saved me. None of us are perfect or deserving of the salvation that God sheds down on us.



I hope those are just the feelings of a person with great remorse who hasn't yet reached back out to the arms of Jesus.  God loves us and forgives us, even when the other family might not.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 14, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Mixing law and grace....yes Christians do it. Everyone that says you are saved by grace....but then can lose it by not following the law. I've had a many people use this example, " He was saved then went out and got drunk and had an accident that killed someone." They go on to ask, " Do you believe God would let someone like this in heaven" ?
> I always answer yes! I believe God knows everything that is going to happen in our life, He knew it when He hung on the cross for me, and He knew it when He saved me. None of us are perfect or deserving of the salvation that God sheds down on us.



If, when you say 'law' you're speaking of the old law, I don't know any person who's trying to live under the covenant of the old law.

I do know people who seek to be obedient in their Christian life....... not so they can get saved, but because their obedience would be a natural connect to the good news of Christ Jesus.  I don't know any who believe a person can work themselves into grace, but they do believe a changed life is naturally connected to God's grace.

And there is a "falling" from grace.  Cannot be denied.
Galatians 5.......  One who has been saved by the grace of God can fall from grace.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 14, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> And there is a "falling" from grace.  Cannot be denied.
> Galatians 5.......  One who has been saved by the grace of God can fall from grace.


Absurd! If one falls from grace, they were never in the grace of God. If you depart from Christ, were you ever truly in Christ? No.

What is this frustrated, impotent grace you speak of?


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## barryl (Jun 14, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I seem to hear and see a lot of discussion lately on the subject of mixing law and grace.  But in my personal life of meeting and knowing thousands of Christians, I don't believe I've ever come across a Christian who believed law and grace belonged together.
> 
> Salvation is a personal experience.  Individual salvation cannot be dissected in a University science lab.  And a church leader cannot maintain a list of all those who have been granted salvation.
> The granting of salvation belongs to the Lord.  And as has already been pointed out, the Lord is looking into my face as I type these words.  What does Jesus say about salvation?  Jesus said, "If I am your Lord, I grant unto you salvation".  And Jesus knows who looks to Him as Lord.
> ...


I see where you and Isreal quoted this scripture{Hebrews 8:11} for some kind of proof text. If ya'll will look back a verse or two, 8- For finding fault with them, he saith, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Isreal and with the house of Judah: 9- Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10- For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Isreal after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.     If ya'll will go back and look at the "context" these scriptures you will see if you try to make this apply to ya'll, you will miss the Rapture of the Church.{This is plainly an 2nd Advent passage} House of Isreal and house of Judah, the whole nation will be saved, so there won't be any witnessing or testifying going on. 2:Tim.2:15 It's all about "rightly dividing the word of truth."


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## barryl (Jun 14, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Mixing law and grace....yes Christians do it. Everyone that says you are saved by grace....but then can lose it by not following the law. I've had a many people use this example, " He was saved then went out and got drunk and had an accident that killed someone." They go on to ask, " Do you believe God would let someone like this in heaven" ?
> I always answer yes! I believe God knows everything that is going to happen in our life, He knew it when He hung on the cross for me, and He knew it when He saved me. None of us are perfect or deserving of the salvation that God sheds down on us.


hobbs27,Christians mixing law and grace, you are absolutly right !! Want me to name some of them? I don't have to, you probably already know.


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## Israel (Jun 14, 2013)

barryl said:


> I see where you and Isreal quoted this scripture{Hebrews 8:11} for some kind of proof text. If ya'll will look back a verse or two, 8- For finding fault with them, he saith, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Isreal and with the house of Judah: 9- Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10- For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Isreal after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.     If ya'll will go back and look at the "context" these scriptures you will see if you try to make this apply to ya'll, you will miss the Rapture of the Church.{This is plainly an 2nd Advent passage} House of Isreal and house of Judah, the whole nation will be saved, so there won't be any witnessing or testifying going on. 2:Tim.2:15 It's all about "rightly dividing the word of truth."



I can't answer for Ronnie. He's more than able.

Don't know much about the rapture till a man tells me what he means by it. Kinda like the word christian.
Not worried about missing much of anything, maybe even learning to not worry about missing anything at all.

And as far as what a proof text is, pretty convinced by now God is well able to prove himself to his own...which was, I believe, the reason I included it in the first place.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 14, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Absurd! If one falls from grace, they were never in the grace of God. If you depart from Christ, were you ever truly in Christ? No.} end QUOTE
> 
> As per Adam and Eve never being in Yaweh? And Judas, was never in Christ? and Paul's churches wanting to return to the old covenant--were never in Christ?


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## gemcgrew (Jun 14, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> As per Adam and Eve never being in Yaweh?


Did grace not seek and find them and clothe them with the skins of the innocent?



gordon 2 said:


> And Judas, was never in Christ?


Never. "For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."



gordon 2 said:


> and Paul's churches wanting to return to the old covenant--were never in Christ?


Be specific. Are you referring to Galatians?


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## Ronnie T (Jun 14, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Absurd! If one falls from grace, they were never in the grace of God. If you depart from Christ, were you ever truly in Christ? No.
> 
> What is this frustrated, impotent grace you speak of?



One can only fall from grace if THE BIBLE SAYS ONE CAN.
And it does.
Nuff said, for me.  Ya can't make this stuff up, and I've got too much at stake in it.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 14, 2013)

barryl said:


> hobbs27,Christians mixing law and grace, you are absolutly right !! Want me to name some of them? I don't have to, you probably already know.



You look back over my written comments and find anything that I posted that would indicate that I believe one receives salvation or grace through works!
You make sure you quote my entire comment and don't just pull half a sentence.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 14, 2013)

Falling from grace.

Gal 4: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. 8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 5:  5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; *ye are fallen from grace*.5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 14, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> One can only fall from grace if THE BIBLE SAYS ONE CAN.
> And it does.
> Nuff said, for me.  Ya can't make this stuff up, and I've got too much at stake in it.


You are reaching. You are taking "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" to mean, and I quote you, "One who has been saved by the grace of God can fall from grace."

That puts you in direct conflict with much of scripture.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 14, 2013)

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Is that the only reason a Christian can loose his assurance of Salvation, returning to the law?


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## gemcgrew (Jun 14, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
> 
> Is that the only reason a Christian can loose his assurance of Salvation, returning to the law?



A believer doesn't return to the law, he is dead to the law. A believer rests entirely upon Christ.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 14, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
> 
> Is that the only reason a Christian can loose his assurance of Salvation, returning to the law?



That's not a question I can answer.
.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 14, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> A believer doesn't return to the law, he is dead to the law. A believer rests entirely upon Christ.



Then what is being discussed in Galatians 4 and 5? 
(actually, the entire letter)


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 14, 2013)

This has me wondering how we go through a progressive sanctification & justification to become more like Jesus. We have to do this without using the "law." 

 Romans 3:21-26: “But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Maybe sanctification & justification happened at conversion. Maybe they are spiritual in nature and don't include any "works."

Should I be afraid to do any works lest I fall from grace?


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## gemcgrew (Jun 14, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Then what is being discussed in Galatians 4 and 5?
> (actually, the entire letter)


Paul is addressing false teachers who are perverting the truth.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 14, 2013)

The difference the Christians in Galatia that Paul was referring to, the ones who fell from grace, might have been because they reverted back to believing once again that "works" were required for Salvation. 
This might be different from knowing Salvation is of Grace alone and "works" are for sanctification & justification. As we become more like Jesus we will help others, (a work) as an example. These works or actions have to be a part of our process of becoming more like Jesus although they are definitely not a part of our salvation.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 14, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Paul is addressing false teachers who are perverting the truth.



Correct but these false teachers are getting real current Galatian Christians to revert back to the "law" for salvation.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 14, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Paul is addressing false teachers who are perverting the truth.



Paul is not writing to false teachers.... He's writing to those who are, or are considering, turning to the teachings of the false teachers.
Paul keeps asking them:  "Why are you even considering turning away from salvation by grace?"  "If you aren't looking to Christ, there is no salvation."

Isn't that the entirety of what Paul writes in the entire letter?
.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 14, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> The difference the Christians in Galatia that Paul was referring to, the ones who fell from grace, might have been because they reverted back to believing once again that "works" were required for Salvation.
> This might be different from knowing Salvation is of Grace alone and "works" are for sanctification & justification. As we become more like Jesus we will help others, (a work) as an example. These works or actions have to be a part of our process of becoming more like Jesus although they are definitely not a part of our salvation.



Yeah, I agree.
Paul is saying:  "If you're looking for salvation through anything other than Jesus Christ, you aren't going to have it."
.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 14, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Paul is not writing to false teachers.... He's writing to those who are, or are considering, turning to the teachings of the false teachers.
> Paul keeps asking them:  "Why are you even considering turning away from salvation by grace?"  "If you aren't looking to Christ, there is no salvation."
> 
> Isn't that the entirety of what Paul writes in the entire letter?
> .



"I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be." 5:10


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> "I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be." 5:10



Well was Paul concerned enough to warn them in the preceding verses what could happen to them if they reverted back to trying to use the Law for salvation? 
Confidence is one thing, it doesn't mean it's gonna happen that way. We have confidence our children will do right but we still warn them of the pitfalls of life.
After our warning to our children we might even say "but I have confidence you will be none otherwise minded."


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## barryl (Jun 15, 2013)

Israel said:


> I can't answer for Ronnie. He's more than able.
> 
> Don't know much about the rapture till a man tells me what he means by it. Kinda like the word christian.
> Not worried about missing much of anything, maybe even learning to not worry about missing anything at all.
> ...


No problem, but misapplying scripture could lead a new Christian astray. I just take God at his word !!


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## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2013)

This is a good study. This Galations 5 has been used many times to make a point of the doctrine of salvation. I see something a little different in it and will try to point it out in its appropriate context.


1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

      2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

 At this point I see Paul talking to those that are in limbo---between Christianity and Judism. They may have been circumsised as children but if they try to use that as justification, and they practice the OT laws, they will not find favor in Gods eyes. Christianity is the only true pure Religion.


4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 
 God has poured his grace out on the whole world. If you seek God through the law you have fallen from grace...Jesus victory on calvary was enough to save the whole world...many choose to walk away..seek justification in other areas..(they have fallen from grace that is made available to whosoever will).


5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love."

 Love trumps all.


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## barryl (Jun 15, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> You look back over my written comments and find anything that I posted that would indicate that I believe one receives salvation or grace through works!
> You make sure you quote my entire comment and don't just pull half a sentence.


Hey Hank, how bout Post # 42 ?


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## Ronnie T (Jun 15, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> You look back over my written comments and find anything that I posted that would indicate that I believe one receives salvation or grace through works!
> You make sure you quote my entire comment and don't just pull half a sentence.





barryl said:


> Hey Hank, how bout Post # 42 ?



Post 42 is a post by gemcgrew.  Now, where have a said one receives salvation or grace through works.  All I did in gemcgrew's commented post was quote a scripture.
You aren't going to find it cause I don't believe it.
But I do believe the verses of Galatians... and I don't for one moment believe Paul wrote any of those words to unbelievers.





gemcgrew said:


> You are reaching. You are taking "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" to mean, and I quote you, "One who has been saved by the grace of God can fall from grace."
> 
> That puts you in direct conflict with much of scripture.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 15, 2013)

Israel said:


> Is it just me...or is that funny no matter who you are...



Actually, I'm not sure; sometimes I laugh, sometimes I bite my tounge, most often its an inappropriately loud ... HA!


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## gordon 2 (Jun 15, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Did grace not seek and find them and clothe them with the skins of the innocent?
> 
> Brother, I know not anything of this. I am almost compelled to cry did not God put skins on coyotes and bears? Predators made good skins for Adam and Eve... But that would be base, and in ignorance of what the heck you are talking about?
> 
> ...


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> 2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.[/COLOR]
> 
> At this point I see Paul talking to those that are in limbo---between Christianity and Judism. They may have been circumsised as children but if they try to use that as justification, and they practice the OT laws, they will not find favor in Gods eyes. Christianity is the only true pure Religion.
> 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
> ...



Weren't the Galatians mostly Gentile? Regardless to whom Paul was warning they were mixing Grace & Law(circumcision). After the warning Paul informed them what would happen if they continued to listen to the false teachers. Then Paul told them he had confidence in them that they would not heed the false teachers. Hopefully they didn't.
Either way whoever the warning was for, they were definitely in limbo.


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## Israel (Jun 15, 2013)

yep


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2013)

barryl said:


> Hey Hank, how bout Post # 42 ?



You must be getting Ronnie mixed up with another Hank. He referenced Galatians to show what Paul warned would happen if they did mix works with grace. 
If he did believe in mixing works with grace (which he doesn't) he sure picked the wrong verses to show it.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> You must be getting Ronnie mixed up with another Hank. He referenced Galatians to show what Paul warned would happen if they did mix works with grace.
> If he did believe in mixing works with grace (which he doesn't) he sure picked the wrong verses to show it.



Post 42


gemcgrew said:


> You are reaching. You are taking "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" to mean, and I quote you(Ronnie), "One who has been saved by the grace of God can fall from grace."
> 
> That puts you in direct conflict with much of scripture.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 15, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Brother, I know not anything of this.


Fair enough.



gordon 2 said:


> Jesus was addressing the folk in Capernaum, not Judas.


Keep reading, it's there.



gordon 2 said:


> Hebrews 10.


Nope


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## Ronnie T (Jun 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> You must be getting Ronnie mixed up with another Hank. He referenced Galatians to show what Paul warned would happen if they did mix works with grace.
> If he did believe in mixing works with grace (which he doesn't) he sure picked the wrong verses to show it.



Ding ding.

Actually, I used those verses(and they know it) to show Paul telling them they would "fall from grace".  The post has nothing to do with the 'salvation/law/grace' subject.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 15, 2013)

Is there a way to discuss deeds/works/fruits of the Spirit.
How can one discuss the doctrine of Obedience(there is such a doctrine), without being accused of believing in works based salvation.

On this forum, would it ever be possible to have that discussion without accusations flying?
.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Weren't the Galatians mostly Gentile? Regardless to whom Paul was warning they were mixing Grace & Law(circumcision). After the warning Paul informed them what would happen if they continued to listen to the false teachers. Then Paul told them he had confidence in them that they would not heed the false teachers. Hopefully they didn't.
> Either way whoever the warning was for, they were definitely in limbo.




Yes, false teaching must have been a more serious problem in the beginning of Christ church. How would they have known were it not for direction from the Holy Spirit? Especially the Galations being illiterate from what I have researched. Non- believers then and now will boast as being Christian leaders...running on false doctrine they lead people away from the Gospel.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 15, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> How can one discuss the doctrine of Obedience(there is such a doctrine), without being accused of believing in works based salvation.


You said "One who has been saved by the grace of God can fall from grace."

Now, please explain how this is not works based.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Post 42



Ok I had to think about this some more to figure out the logic you are using. Here it goes:
Since Ronnie believes (and me to) that Paul was telling the Galatians that if they mix law and grace together they will fall from God's grace and thus lose salvation. 
By Ronnie believing this is what the scripture says, he has therefore inadvertently mixed law and grace. The contention is salvation is by grace alone. Therefore adding or subtracting works to the equation is mixing law & grace.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Is there a way to discuss deeds/works/fruits of the Spirit.
> How can one discuss the doctrine of Obedience(there is such a doctrine), without being accused of believing in works based salvation.
> 
> On this forum, would it ever be possible to have that discussion without accusations flying?
> .



Barryl is one of the most Christians I've ever met into sanctification, justification, and the other "ions". How do we do all of those and obedience without it becoming part of something?
Many verses about grace and works. It's really confusing when Paul does it in Galatians. He did say if you mix law and grace, you could fall from grace. Didn't he know by saying that, he just did it?
the Bible tends to go back and forth on this and so do Christians. We used to believe in the 10 commandments, now they are just used for a guide, not really necessary.


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## barryl (Jun 15, 2013)

Lordy, Lordy, Lordy, not sure how it happened, but this thread turned into a "loss of salvation" thread. So before we get back on topic let me see if I can straiten some of this mess out. Gal. Ch. 5:4 is one of the 5 or 6 scriptures that the COC, DOC, and the RCC use for a proof text to prove you can supposedly lose salvation. If you think I'm kidding, check it out. There are other Denom's that use other scriptures to try to prove you can{in out in out}, "mulitilate the Body of Christ." Gal. 5:4 Christ has become of no effect unto you,"whosoever of you are justified by the law;" ye are fallen from grace.{Quotations mine} Those who reject Christ{as here} after grace has been offered{as here} are "fallen from grace"{as here}. 5"For [we] [through the Spirit] wait for the hope of righteousness by faith." {Brackets mine} Now if you will notice verse 4 is {you} and in verse 5 is we{In Christ}. Back on topic, Gal. Ch. 2 Is talking about new believers Peter was eating with, when the Judiasers came calling, Peter hauled freight. He was rebuked by Paul{Gal. 2:14} just like anyone today would be for someone trying to take advantage of a new believer trying to pin them down with legalism. Refer to Gal. Ch. 4 explains what happens when you try to mix law and grace.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 15, 2013)

barryl said:


> Lordy, Lordy, Lordy, not sure how it happened, but this thread turned into a "loss of salvation" thread. So before we get back on topic let me see if I can straiten some of this mess out. Gal. Ch. 5:4 is one of the 5 or 6 scriptures that the COC, DOC, and the RCC use for a proof text to prove you can supposedly lose salvation. If you think I'm kidding, check it out. There are other Denom's that use other scriptures to try to prove you can{in out in out}, "mulitilate the Body of Christ." Gal. 5:4 Christ has become of no effect unto you,"whosoever of you are justified by the law;" ye are fallen from grace.{Quotations mine} Those who reject Christ{as here} after grace has been offered{as here} are "fallen from grace"{as here}. 5"For [we] [through the Spirit] wait for the hope of righteousness by faith." {Brackets mine} Now if you will notice verse 4 is {you} and in verse 5 is we{In Christ}. Back on topic, Gal. Ch. 2 Is talking about new believers Peter was eating with, when the Judiasers came calling, Peter hauled freight. He was rebuked by Paul{Gal. 2:14} just like anyone today would be for someone trying to take advantage of a new believer trying to pin them down with legalism. Refer to Gal. Ch. 4 explains what happens when you try to mix law and grace.



Totally disagree with your above understanding.  And I know you don't take disagreement very well.
Paul is addressing believers who either have already, or are about to revert to the old law away from the Christ they've already accepted as savior.
When they turn from Christ, back to the law, they leave grace, because grace is only found in Christ.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, false teaching must have been a more serious problem in the beginning of Christ church. How would they have known were it not for direction from the Holy Spirit? Especially the Galations being illiterate from what I have researched. Non- believers then and now will boast as being Christian leaders...running on false doctrine they lead people away from the Gospel.



But you don't believe the members of the Galatian Church were bonafide Christians? You said something about them being in limbo between Christianity and Judaism. 
How can someone fall from God's grace that never had God's grace? Paul said it not me.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jun 15, 2013)

barryl said:


> Lordy, Lordy, Lordy, not sure how it happened, but this thread turned into a "loss of salvation" thread. So before we get back on topic let me see if I can straiten some of this mess out. Gal. Ch. 5:4 is one of the 5 or 6 scriptures that the COC, DOC, and the RCC use for a proof text to prove you can supposedly lose salvation. If you think I'm kidding, check it out. There are other Denom's that use other scriptures to try to prove you can{in out in out}, "mulitilate the Body of Christ." Gal. 5:4 Christ has become of no effect unto you,"whosoever of you are justified by the law;" ye are fallen from grace.{Quotations mine} Those who reject Christ{as here} after grace has been offered{as here} are "fallen from grace"{as here}. 5"For [we] [through the Spirit] wait for the hope of righteousness by faith." {Brackets mine} Now if you will notice verse 4 is {you} and in verse 5 is we{In Christ}. Back on topic, Gal. Ch. 2 Is talking about new believers Peter was eating with, when the Judiasers came calling, Peter hauled freight. He was rebuked by Paul{Gal. 2:14} just like anyone today would be for someone trying to take advantage of a new believer trying to pin them down with legalism. Refer to Gal. Ch. 4 explains what happens when you try to mix law and grace.



*So before we get back on topic let me see if I can straiten some of this mess out


Actually, I don't know if I've every spent as much time on this subject as I have in the last two weeks.  It actually isn't a subject I have to prove.
In fact, except for this thread I  have little concern for the subject.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> But you don't believe the members of the Galatian Church were bonafide Christians? You said something about them being in limbo between Christianity and Judaism.
> How can someone fall from God's grace that never had God's grace? Paul said it not me.



Forget it Art.  He says that because that's the only way the verse cannot mean what it says.  
The same is true of the letters Jesus transcribed to the apostle John in Rev 1-3.  Supposedly, those letters were for unbelievers, because Jesus spoke of removing people from the kingdom.

Time to let the differences remain.


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## barryl (Jun 15, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Totally disagree with your above understanding.  And I know you don't take disagreement very well.
> Paul is addressing believers who either have already, or are about to revert to the old law away from the Christ they've already accepted as savior.
> When they turn from Christ, back to the law, they leave grace, because grace is only found in Christ.


O.K. Hank, no big deal. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one too!!


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## gemcgrew (Jun 15, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Forget it Art.  He says that because that's the only way the verse cannot mean what it says.


I find that interesting, seeing how you said "One who has been saved by the grace of God can fall from grace." If this be true, none of the people of Galatia were "actually saved", but rather "potentially saved". Their salvation was dependent upon them and what they did or did not.

But, yet in your mind, this is not works based.

And I do not agree to disagree. I adamantly disagree.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 16, 2013)

I'm not going to continue trading comments with you, I'll just post what the Bible says and let it's words speak for themselves.

Galatians 5
1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 

5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.


13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 16, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> But you don't believe the members of the Galatian Church were bonafide Christians? You said something about them being in limbo between Christianity and Judaism.
> How can someone fall from God's grace that never had God's grace? Paul said it not me.



Gods grace is sufficient for the whole world. Though many are called few are chosen. You can fall from grace without receiving, simply by turning away from the sound doctrine of the Gospel. Not every person in the church is a believer...not every deacon, preacher , or pastor is a believer either...Many of the modern prosperity preachers we see on tv would not be mocking the Gospel if they were true believers. They wouldn't be able to stand it.

That's how I see the warning from Paul. I can understand how others may see it different.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jun 16, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I'm not going to continue trading comments with you, I'll just post what the Bible says and let it's words speak for themselves.
> 
> 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


"You who are seeking to be justified by law" is not a true believer. No true faith in Christ. They are yet trusting in themselves. They are adding to the accomplishment of Christ. Paul is addressing this "Christ plus something else" error. 

That brings me back to your "One who has been saved by the grace of God can fall from grace." If one can be saved and then lost, then salvation is surely by man. But scripture is clear that "Salvation is of the Lord". You nor I can pluck me out of his hand. I have no acceptance before God but Christ. It is not his accomplishment plus mine. Christ alone.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 16, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> "You who are seeking to be justified by law" is not a true believer. No true faith in Christ. They are yet trusting in themselves. They are adding to the accomplishment of Christ. Paul is addressing this "Christ plus something else" error.
> .




Forget it Gem. He says that because that's the only way the verse cannot mean what it says.


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## barryl (Jun 16, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> One can only fall from grace if THE BIBLE SAYS ONE CAN.
> And it does.
> Nuff said, for me.  Ya can't make this stuff up, and I've got too much at stake in it.


One more time! (Mixing Law and Grace) -  Whenever the Denominations that believe you can lose salvation in the grace dispensation{Body of Christ} see the word "fall", they think it means losing salvation.  .."In Galatians, 5:4, the grace of God was offered to a lost sinner, but because he was trusting his keeping of the Law to save him, Christ could not effect any change in his life, so he "fell" from(denied) the grace of God that was offered to save him."                                         Regarding taking oneself out of this grace dispensation that we are currently living in:     I heard a sermon this morning on how Noah saved his family from the flood by building the Ark.  There is a major, major difference in "falling" while inside the Ark than "falling" out of the Ark. Correct interpretation of scripture allows us to fully understand the words of God in his Holy Book (KJV AV).   I also need to point out that the Bible says we are "Saved" -- past tense.  We are not "Safe".    We are "Saved" forever more - those that fully trust in Chrst.  Those that are truly "Saved" (past tense) cannot take themselves out!   Prov 24:16"For a just man "falleth" seven times, and riseth up again:  but the wicked shall "fall" into mischief".  Psalms 37:23-24; Romans 8:35-39.     2 Tim. 2:15- "rightly divide"


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## Ronnie T (Jun 16, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Forget it Gem. He says that because that's the only way the verse cannot mean what it says.



No.  "Forget it Gem.  He says that because that's exactly what the verse says!  And if that's what the verse says, he will not ignore that verse simply because it might not sit well with someone's thoughts concerning other verses in the Bible."
Every verse and every chapter of the Bible are important.  I willing accept each verse with no thought of dismantling any verse for the sake of church doctrine.

The letter is question is what it is and it says what it says.  There isn't a magician alive who can make it say otherwise.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 16, 2013)

barryl said:


> One more time! (Mixing Law and Grace) -  Whenever the Denominations that believe you can lose salvation in the grace dispensation{Body of Christ} see the word "fall", they think it means losing salvation.  .."In Galatians, 5:4, the grace of God was offered to a lost sinner, but because he was trusting his keeping of the Law to save him, Christ could not effect any change in his life, so he "fell" from(denied) the grace of God that was offered to save him."                                         Regarding taking oneself out of this grace dispensation that we are currently living in:     I heard a sermon this morning on how Noah saved his family from the flood by building the Ark.  There is a major, major difference in "falling" while inside the Ark than "falling" out of the Ark. Correct interpretation of scripture allows us to fully understand the words of God in his Holy Book (KJV AV).   I also need to point out that the Bible says we are "Saved" -- past tense.  We are not "Safe".    We are "Saved" forever more - those that fully trust in Chrst.  Those that are truly "Saved" (past tense) cannot take themselves out!   Prov 24:16"For a just man "falleth" seven times, and riseth up again:  but the wicked shall "fall" into mischief".  Psalms 37:23-24; Romans 8:35-39.     2 Tim. 2:15- "rightly divide"



Barry, there's nothing you could say that would cause me to not accept these verses of Galatians exactly as they are written.  I don't care about your church beliefs or my churches beliefs.  I care what this letter says.  And after reading the letter in question at least 40 times in my life I'm convinced Paul is speaking to Christians. 

And I don't care what other verses say.  I'll accept these verses, and these latest ones that you've mentioned.  But one verse will not void the other.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 16, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> And after reading the letter in question at least 40 times in my life I'm convinced Paul is speaking to Christians.


He is and he is speaking to non Christians as well. He is speaking about non Christians at times. "And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:" (2:4)

I recommend a 41st reading and within context this time.

Side note:
I have not spent as much time here as I would like. Being on the computer has become very frustrating and painful due to cataracts. It is a huge struggle for me. Lord willing, I am having surgery for one eye on July 2nd and the other eye two weeks later.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 16, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> He is and he is speaking to non Christians as well. He is speaking about non Christians at times. "And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:" (2:4)
> 
> I recommend a 41st reading and within context this time.
> 
> ...



Then I would ask that you provide a semi-detailed look at the verses, beginning early in chapter 4.  Show and explain to me, by showing me scriptural evidence that what you say is true.

Cataract surgery has come to be an easy surgery in recent years.  I pray yours will be very successful.
If you haven't already, increase the magnification of your computer screen.  Bottom right corner of screen.  Just above the time.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 16, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Then I would ask that you provide a semi-detailed look at the verses, beginning early in chapter 4.  Show and explain to me, by showing me scriptural evidence that what you say is true.



Can we agree that "false brethren" indicates non Christian?



Ronnie T said:


> Cataract surgery has come to be an easy surgery in recent years.  I pray yours will be very successful.
> If you haven't already, increase the magnification of your computer screen.  Bottom right corner of screen.  Just above the time.


Thank you. Cataracts is a blessing and will give me a greater appreciation for clear vision. It is the light from the screen that is blinding and triggers headaches(migraines at times). Pray for my wife and her fear of how I will view her without the cataract.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 16, 2013)

Israel said:


> yep



No! Not even maybe.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 16, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Can we agree that "false brethren" indicates non Christian?
> I agree.  Actually were Jewish rebels.(instigators).
> 
> Thank you. Cataracts is a blessing and will give me a greater appreciation for clear vision. It is the light from the screen that is blinding and triggers headaches(migraines at times). Pray for my wife and her fear of how I will view her without the cataract.



Now that's funny right there.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 16, 2013)

Here's a short bleep from a Baptist preacher by the name of Paul Decker, Pastor, Memorial Baptist Church.

I agree with everything he says.....  about the Galatians and about grace.

"3. Anytime we obligate ourselves to law, we ruin grace.

Once they submit to the rite of circumcision…
…they confess that they think Christ is insufficient, 
…the Spirit is not a good guide for living, 
…that Moses needs to be obeyed for acceptance with God, and,
…that one needs, in effect, to become a Jew to be a child of God.
But the truth is, when Christ died for our sins to repair the injury we had done to God’s honor, our debt was totally covered! 
Any effort to increase the deposit made for us by Christ at Calvary is an insult to its infinite value.
So when we try to improve on it, we, in effect, reject it.
We are always to depend on grace, not law.
We are always to depend on God alone, and not our efforts.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 16, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I agree. Actually were Jewish rebels.(instigators)


Yes and these rebels were brought in unawares. They are there and Paul is also addressing or confronting them in his letter. That is why we see terms like "if you receive circumcision", "to every man who receives circumcision", "you who are seeking to be justified by law", we see Christ rejecting, rebellious Jews who are still seeking their justification. They are seeking to be made justified by something they do. They are perverting the Gospel and are cut off from salvation. They never had true faith in Christ.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 16, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Yes and these rebels were brought in unawares. They are there and Paul is also addressing or confronting them in his letter. That is why we see terms like "if you receive circumcision", "to every man who receives circumcision", "you who are seeking to be justified by law", we see Christ rejecting, rebellious Jews who are still seeking their justification. They are seeking to be made justified by something they do. They are perverting the Gospel and are cut off from salvation. They never had true faith in Christ.



These Judaizing rebels have come into the Galatian church seeking to cause the Christians of the church to leave the grace of Christ and return to the ways of the circumcised.
These Judaizer are there to persuade the Christians to adapt to Jewish laws.

I agree, these Judaizers never believed or accepted Christ.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 17, 2013)

Ronnie and Gem, I have no dog involved here (it even appears that I don't know what the terms "grace" and "law" refer to) but as I understand it, the "false brethern" being refered to were in Jerusalem years prior to the letter to the Galatians.


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## Israel (Jun 17, 2013)

LOL Hummerpoo...
Maybe grace is precisely demonstrated when you don't "have" to prove you know anything about it at all?
Maybe law is all the little "have to's"...whether they be be found between leather covers or our ears...

Which reminds me of a song...




You may...ask yourself...

Then again...

You may just cry out, "My God! What have I done?"   trying to be helpful, (especially helpful) enlightening, evil, good (oh, yes, especially good) , and find water...running underground...through places you never imagined.

And we may even stop trying to figure out how to "work this" relationship...and just let it work...


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## Ronnie T (Jun 17, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> Ronnie and Gem, I have no dog involved here (it even appears that I don't know what the terms "grace" and "law" refer to) but as I understand it, the "false brethern" being refered to were in Jerusalem years prior to the letter to the Galatians.



YOU'RE RIGHT.  
In chapter two Paul is speaking historically of his time in Jerusalem and what had occurred there.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 17, 2013)

I pulled these verses for myself.  Thought I 'd post them since I had them.

Acts 15: 15	And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined ... 

Gal 1: 6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 

Gal 1:  8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. ... 

Chap 3: 1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

Chap 4: 8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

Chap 5: 7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.

Chap 5: 10 I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.

Chap 5: 12 I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves. 

--The liberty Paul writes about in this epistle pertains to...
   a. Freedom from the bondage of sin - cf. Ga 2:16
   b. Freedom from the Law of Moses - cf. Ga 4:4-5
   c. Freedom to serve one another in love - cf. Ga 5:13
   d. Freedom from the works of the flesh - cf. Ga 5:16,19-21

*Important note:  Paul isn't writing to one congregation.  He's writing to at least 3 congregations.
   e. Freedom to produce the fruit of the Spirit - cf. Ga 5:22-25


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 17, 2013)

Paul was warning someone in Galatia that if they mixed law & grace they would fall from God's grace. It appears to be Christians with phrases like "ye have known God", " how turn ye again", &  "desire again to be in bondage".  Even the very phrase "fall from grace" all appear as if someone who returned and then fell. How do you fall from something you never had?
But for the sake of argument let's say Paul was referring to non-Christians who hadn't used their freewill to decide yet. Why or how did these non-Christians fall from the grace they didn't have yet?
Why did Paul need to warn them, because at that point they didn't have salvation?(non-believers already have been warned)
By accusing Ronnie of mixing Law & Grace by the Galatian verses you are in affect accusing God of mixing law & grace. God said it through Paul. It's really in Galatians I read it again to make sure. So no matter who God is warning through Paul, Christian or not, he is warning someone not to do it or else fall from grace.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 17, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> Ronnie and Gem, I have no dog involved here (it even appears that I don't know what the terms "grace" and "law" refer to) but as I understand it, the "false brethern" being refered to were in Jerusalem years prior to the letter to the Galatians.


Correct. Paul is addressing the same thing here. He may very well have this person or persons in mind when he said "but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be" and "I would they were even cut off which trouble you".


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## Israel (Jun 17, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Correct. Paul is addressing the same thing here. He may very well have this person or persons in mind when he said "but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be" and "I would they were even cut off which trouble you".[/QUOT
> 
> Perhaps Paul even got to the point of understanding where a lot of the "troubling" came from....And persuaded that the same spirit that had taught him, would teach others...and if indeed, they had not that spirit, no amount of cajoling, convincing, explanations would account for anything.
> Perhaps care can even go beyond believing we are needed at all...and that true care is finding the expediency in our "going away"...also?
> ...


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## gemcgrew (Jun 17, 2013)

Israel said:


> Perhaps Paul even got to the point of understanding where a lot of the "troubling" came from....And persuaded that the same spirit that had taught him, would teach others...and if indeed, they had not that spirit, no amount of cajoling, convincing, explanations would account for anything.


Perhaps. Paul is very consistent in his condemnatory attitude toward the Judaizers. Law and grace are mutually exclusive in justification before God.

I can only hope to be as consistent.


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## barryl (Jun 17, 2013)

barryl said:


> One more time! (Mixing Law and Grace) -  Whenever the Denominations that believe you can lose salvation in the grace dispensation{Body of Christ} see the word "fall", they think it means losing salvation.  .."In Galatians, 5:4, the grace of God was offered to a lost sinner, but because he was trusting his keeping of the Law to save him, Christ could not effect any change in his life, so he "fell" from(denied) the grace of God that was offered to save him."                                         Regarding taking oneself out of this grace dispensation that we are currently living in:     I heard a sermon this morning on how Noah saved his family from the flood by building the Ark.  There is a major, major difference in "falling" while inside the Ark than "falling" out of the Ark. Correct interpretation of scripture allows us to fully understand the words of God in his Holy Book (KJV AV).   I also need to point out that the Bible says we are "Saved" -- past tense.  We are not "Safe".    We are "Saved" forever more - those that fully trust in Chrst.  Those that are truly "Saved" (past tense) cannot take themselves out!   Prov 24:16"For a just man "falleth" seven times, and riseth up again:  but the wicked shall "fall" into mischief".  Psalms 37:23-24; Romans 8:35-39.     2 Tim. 2:15- "rightly divide"





Ronnie T said:


> Barry, there's nothing you could say that would cause me to not accept these verses of Galatians exactly as they are written.  I don't care about your church beliefs or my churches beliefs.  I care what this letter says.  And after reading the letter in question at least 40 times in my life I'm convinced Paul is speaking to Christians.
> 
> And I don't care what other verses say.  I'll accept these verses, and these latest ones that you've mentioned.  But one verse will not void the other.


That is exactly what happens when someone takes scripture out of its proper context. When you do not see what all the scripture has to say about all the scripture.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 17, 2013)

barryl said:


> That is exactly what happens when someone takes scripture out of its proper context. When you do not see what all the scripture has to say about all the scripture.



barryl, is it possible that _you_ are taking scripture out of context?


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## hummerpoo (Jun 17, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Correct. Paul is addressing the same thing here. He may very well have this person or persons in mind when he said "but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be" and "I would they were even cut off which trouble you".





Israel said:


> gemcgrew said:
> 
> 
> > Correct. Paul is addressing the same thing here. He may very well have this person or persons in mind when he said "but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be" and "I would they were even cut off which trouble you".[/QUOT
> ...


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## barryl (Jun 17, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> barryl, is it possible that _you_ are taking scripture out of context?


No!No No:


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## Israel (Jun 17, 2013)

was that No as emphatic as both the "!" and the emoticon would indicate...or do you have a sense of humor?


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## hummerpoo (Jun 17, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Law and grace are mutually exclusive in justification before God.



Thank you Gem.  Honestly, I didn't expect anyone to provide the qualification that gives this conversation, what I consider, proper focus.


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## Israel (Jun 17, 2013)

Has anyone else ever thought...especially after or during a contest of what appears as belief vs unbelief...
"Gee, if only someone could see Jesus the way I do, I know they'd love him"?
That is where you will learn the difference between law and grace...


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## gemcgrew (Jun 17, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> ^^What he said.^^
> 
> Paul seems to identify the "false brethern" in Jerusalem while those in Galatia are enigmatic,  perhaps allowing those addressed to find the culprit in themselves.


I still see Paul addressing those who never truly had the grace of God, even though they claimed to have it. They embraced another gospel and Christ is of no effect to them. Paul is hostile towards them. I do not see a hint of 5:4 meaning "One who has been saved by the grace of God can fall from grace." No way. I will continue to refute it.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 17, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I still see Paul addressing those who never truly had the grace of God, even though they claimed to have it. They embraced another gospel and Christ is of no effect to them. Paul is hostile towards them. I do not see a hint of 5:4 meaning "One who has been saved by the grace of God can fall from grace." No way. I will continue to refute it.



I may not see the degree of hostility that you do, but on your basic point I concur.


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## Israel (Jun 17, 2013)

A wonderful progression.
Dirt and water mixed with the breath of God.
Dirt and water betraying (displaying) its nature.
The coming in childhood of all the "be careful{s}" "don't do this or that"...
The youth wandering far away to prove himself.
And proving himself...nothing.
The call home...where nothing is required, nothing a burden, nothing an obligation, but just be, and admit, I am but dirt and water...but made, by YOU!

To see...what it took to get dirt and water to see what cannot be seen by only dirt and water.
To see..."take this bread and eat, it is my body, given for you"
"this wine is my blood..."


To see, who is totally invested in dirt and water and has always given it breath, food, drink...till it can see...what cannot be seen...


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## gemcgrew (Jun 17, 2013)

Israel said:


> A wonderful progression.
> Dirt and water mixed with the breath of God.
> Dirt and water betraying (displaying) its nature.
> The coming in childhood of all the "be careful{s}" "don't do this or that"...
> ...



Israel, some of your post can irritate me beyond the beyond.

This is not one of them.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 17, 2013)

barryl said:


> No!No No:


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## Israel (Jun 17, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


>


Dear brother. I am often found a liar.
In more cases than not when I post LOL...I am really not L-ingOL...maybe chuckling to myself.

Thank you for delivering me into the truth.
LOL


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## hummerpoo (Jun 17, 2013)

Israel said:


> A wonderful progression.
> Dirt and water mixed with the breath of God.
> Dirt and water betraying (displaying) its nature.
> The coming in childhood of all the "be careful{s}" "don't do this or that"...
> ...



 "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known."

AWESOME!


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## barryl (Jun 18, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


>


CPF, Isreal, ya'll know good and well ole barryl doesn't take disagreement{ Posts #73 and #77} very well as per RT. Come to think of it, I believe he has "ESPN".


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## barryl (Jun 18, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> He is and he is speaking to non Christians as well. He is speaking about non Christians at times. "And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:" (2:4)
> 
> I recommend a 41st reading and within context this time.
> 
> ...


Prayin' for ya man! Gotta probably make that trip before long.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 18, 2013)

Who's right?  Who's wrong?  ........Who cares?  I thoroughly enjoyed this thread. You can't discuss these things in a church full of like believers and get challenged on your beliefs. This has been a very healthy discussion. IMO.


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## Israel (Jun 18, 2013)

barryl said:


> CPF, Isreal, ya'll know good and well ole barryl doesn't take disagreement{ Posts #73 and #77} very well as per RT. Come to think of it, I believe he has "ESPN".


see, now dats what I'm talkin' bout. a good laugh can really only be had if it's shared...
good to see you in da cheap seats...


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## barryl (Jun 19, 2013)

Israel said:


> see, now dats what I'm talkin' bout. a good laugh can really only be had if it's shared...
> good to see you in da cheap seats...


You are absolutely right! You know, I read somewhere, oh now I remember, It was when reading and studying my Bible{KJV AV} I read that even God has a sense of humor. I was reading where God made a Mule{A**} talk.


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## barryl (Jun 19, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Who's right?  Who's wrong?  ........Who cares?  I thoroughly enjoyed this thread. You can't discuss these things in a church full of like believers and get challenged on your beliefs. This has been a very healthy discussion. IMO.


This thread was started to make certain Christians, Denom's, or sects step back and look again whether they have been taught sound Doctrine or not. Didn't know It was gonna turn into a shootin' match. For me lookin' at it, any time you have Christians{the Body of Christ} trying to drag us{Christians} back into the gospels, Acts{Ch. 2},or Hebrews, things can get "wrongly divided". Over in the "Assurance of Salvation" thread it got pretty wild. {Spiritually, Historically, or Doctrinally} Every verse of scripture needs to be applied{Dividied} this way.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 19, 2013)

barryl said:


> This thread was started to make certain Christians, Denom's, or sects step back and look again whether they have been taught sound Doctrine or not.




If anybody comes to this forum for "sound doctrine" ...


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## Ronnie T (Jun 19, 2013)

One of the great difficulties of spiritual discussions on this, and other, forums is that we aren't able to share the Bible with each other in the way we would if we were in the same room.
Another great difficulty is our bringing our denominational beliefs into the discussion.  It's often difficult to simply look and discuss a verse without bringing 'outside interference' into the discussion.
And when someone doesn't accept a scripture exactly the way we accept a scripture, we often speak down to them rather than accepting their 'right' to stand by their conviction.

"Rightly dividing the Word of God".  You know what that means?  It means, "You must totally agree with me, or you're not rightly dividing the Word.

The Bible isn't difficult.  We are difficult.  Maybe we trust more in our individual beliefs, and our churches beliefs, than we do Jesus Christ.  We might all be wrong you know.  Standing on our doctrinal soapboxes seeking to prove that I am correct and you are not can always become a complicated place to be.

The question is, and always will be, "Is Jesus your Lord?"


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## Ronnie T (Jun 19, 2013)

barryl said:


> This thread was started to make certain Christians, Denom's, or sects step back and look again whether they have been taught sound Doctrine or not. QUOTE]
> 
> Let's face it, and the many comments to this thread will prove the point I'm about to make....
> This thread was started to make certain all other Christians believe what the originator of this thread has been taught to accept as sound doctrine.
> ...


----------



## centerpin fan (Jun 19, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> This thread was started to make certain all other Christians believe what the originator of this thread has been taught to accept as sound doctrine.


----------



## barryl (Jun 19, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> barryl said:
> 
> 
> > This thread was started to make certain Christians, Denom's, or sects step back and look again whether they have been taught sound Doctrine or not. QUOTE]
> ...


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## barryl (Jun 19, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> If anybody comes to this forum for "sound doctrine" ...


I tell ya what CP, don't know if these forums give out annual awards or not, if they did you would get my vote!!!!! That's good right there !!


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## Ronnie T (Jun 19, 2013)

barryl said:


> Ronnie T said:
> 
> 
> > Since you won't go back and see who started this thread, I'll help you out, barryl did, and guess who jumped on it like a Duck on a Junebug with the second post, Rt did. Just to knock out two birds with one stone, if I were interested in your or my opinion then I would not be interested in what the Lord has to say in his word, now would I? Now if you don't or won't, Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Tim. 2:15 KJV AV     One more question, is that why every other thread is started on these forums, to make Christians believe what the originator of the thread believes?:whip:
> ...


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## gtparts (Jun 20, 2013)

First, to the matter of law and grace, it occurs to me that there is a measure of grace in the giving of the law. Had God withheld the law, Scripture tells us we would not know our transgressions, have no standard by which we might understand our condition before a holy God. Even so, the law never has had the power to save, but certainly the power to condemn. 

God has held two "mirrors" up for us to examine ourselves. The law shows us just how ugly and flawed our sinful nature is. The second "mirror", Christ shows us the compassion of our Creator and the perfect example of who God intended us to be,... and can be, in Him.

My first question is, How compassionate is God, given that He is holy and just? What a contradiction, if God redeems us by the death of His only Son, yet it has no permanence! Thinks He so little of His Son... and of us? 

I'd give an illustration of the relationship between the saved and God, but God has already done so (and far more eloquently).

There was a man who had two sons, both of whom he loved dearly, but one day the younger son (who allowed himself to be influenced by the secular nature of his "friends") finally persuaded his father to give him his rightful inheritance, which he promptly blew in self indulgence. Got the picture?

#2 @ home ---- the second son
#2, in a foreign land ---- still a son
#2, in a pig sty ---- still a son
#2, back home, filled with contrition and humility ---- still a son
#2, at his return party, feeling foolish, but ever so grateful that his father loves him after all he did to displease his father, and all he did to debase himself.

Now, here is an interesting fact. When Paul speaks of our adoption as redeemed children, he is making his point on Roman law. The laws governing adoption were strict and forever binding on the one doing the adopting. It was done very publicly to ensure that the relationship was established in the sight of all the citizens gathered. It underscored an irrevocable legal obligation to the adoptee, to provide for them as a natural-born son. A natural-born son could be disowned easily. The adopted son could never be disowned. Paul is describing salvation exactly as the Roman law frames adoption.

Now, back to the story. At no time did #2 lose his son-ship, never was he disowned or disavowed. Neither do the saved through Christ need to be fearful of their position in Christ. All this puts a different light on the idea of "falling away". 

It is indeed possible to "fall away", that is, to be outside of God's will for us (suffering consequences because He chastises those He loves) and to place ourselves out of fellowship with him. The strain on the relationship will be evident in us, but God never waivers from His side of the relationship. If we are His, we cannot change that. He keeps His covenants!   

This doctrine is never OSAS, never really has been. OSAS can be argued if one leaves the idea of salvation open to wrong interpretation. It has always been ISAS, If Saved, Always Saved.

Salvation is not some wishy-washy, on again - off again promise of God...... His grace has never been some inferior, unreliable handout that He withholds to manipulate us.

Christ says that "not one that the Father has been given me can be taken from my hand". I'll take Him at His word.

The law cannot save. It can only condemn.
Grace unto salvation always saves and saves permanently. It is the expression of God's unfailing love.


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## barryl (Jun 20, 2013)

GT, Good Post, AMEN !!!!


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## Ronnie T (Jun 20, 2013)

gtparts said:


> First, to the matter of law and grace, it occurs to me that there is a measure of grace in the giving of the law. Had God withheld the law, Scripture tells us we would not know our transgressions, have no standard by which we might understand our condition before a holy God. Even so, the law never has had the power to save, but certainly the power to condemn.
> 
> God has held two "mirrors" up for us to view of ourselves. The law shows us just how ugly and flawed our sinful nature is. Christ shows us the compassion of our Creator and the perfect example of who God intended us to be,... and can be, in Him.
> 
> ...



Makes sense.  It's logical.  The problem?  Those are your words and thoughts, but does not include the entireity(I made it up) of the Gospel.

The apostle John records these words spoken by Jesus. "not one that the Father has been given me can be taken from my hand".  You say that you'll take Him at His word.  But Jesus wasn't speaking to you or to believers, He was speaking to Jews who would destroy Christ and His kingdom.

Also if those words from John's Gospel are good enough for you and you'll take Jesus at His words, would you do the same for the following words spoken by Jesus in John's Gospel......


John 8:42 says:  “Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” 

God's grace of salvation was not our own personal key to the doorway of heaven.  God's grace of salvation is a road block that has separated up from the Law and our sins of the past.  God's grace is an empowerment.  God's grace provides everything to us necessary for us to live for Christ, rather than ourselves.

Christians today would be wise to not ignore the call to discipleship.

In the parable of the Prodigal Son, son #2 took the gift and left his father.  The father didn't rescue the son.  The father did not influence the son.  The father did not bring the son home.  The father simply waited.  Waited and hoped.  And finally, the son came to his senses.  There was no indication that the son was preordained to come to his senses.  The message of the story was:  "The son came to his senses and returned to the Father.  And the Father stood waiting.  And was overjoyed that the son who was gone has now returned.
What if the son had not returned?  Nothing there indicates that it was not a possibility.  Actually, quiet the opposite.

We are called to discipleship.  Not sinlessness, but discipleship.


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## gtparts (Jun 20, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Makes sense.  It's logical.  The problem?  Those are your words and thoughts, but does not include the entireity(I made it up) of the Gospel.
> 
> I'm sorry Ronnie, but it was not my intention to paraphrase the entire Gospel.... merely to illustrate from Scripture.
> 
> ...



We are also called to repentance, holiness, obedience, humility, etc., as well as discipleship.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 20, 2013)

gtparts said:


> First, to the matter of law and grace, it occurs to me that there is a measure of grace in the giving of the law.



BINGO!!.

I’M sure my departures from your post would be judged quibbles.

For an artistic illustration of this I recommend Orson Welles’ adaptation of Kafka’s “The Trial”.  It provides an interesting perspective.  Caution: the secular interpretations of Kafka’s work don’t make sense, at least to this rather tangled mind.


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## Israel (Jun 20, 2013)

Souls, like bodies...get excited.
Souls, like bodies have the tendency to want to relieve the stress of that "excitedness".
When this happens between two bodies, sometimes babies are born.
When this happens amongst souls...sometimes lotsa seed gets spilled, some gets rejected...and some find a place prepared for them.
The only seed that matters is what will bring forth fruit for our elder brother...


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## Ronnie T (Jun 20, 2013)

gtparts said:


> We are also called to repentance, holiness, obedience, humility, etc., as well as discipleship.



Agree.  And still, we're only saved through God's grace.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 21, 2013)

Israel said:


> Souls, like bodies...get excited.
> Souls, like bodies have the tendency to want to relieve the stress of that "excitedness".
> When this happens between two bodies, sometimes babies are born.
> When this happens amongst souls...sometimes lotsa seed gets spilled, some gets rejected...and some find a place prepared for them.
> The only seed that matters is what will bring forth fruit for our elder brother...



Beautiful, Thank You


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## Israel (Jun 22, 2013)

Our own works, when considered in the light and truth of the Spirit's presence are like character witnesses presented at the sentencing of a guilty man.
There is really nothing that is not embarrassing past the admission of guilt.
It's a peculiar thing to find mercy, not in the striving to "be" good, but in the admission it has never been within your power.
Remarkably...when that is relinquished, evil is neither counted against one.


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## barryl (Jun 25, 2013)

*Legalism*

1 Timothy is a very enlightening chapter, legalism and unsound teaching "rebuked". The whole chapter ole' Paul, is choppin' the wood!! Verse 9, "Knowing this,that the Law is not made for the righteous man . . ." There are several Denomination's today doing what Paul is rebuking in 1 Tim. and Galations.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 25, 2013)

barryl said:


> 1 Timothy is a very enlightening chapter, legalism and unsound teaching "rebuked". The whole chapter ole' Paul, is choppin' the wood!! Verse 9, "Knowing this,that the Law is not made for the righteous man . . ." There are several Denomination's today doing what Paul is rebuking in 1 Tim. and Galations.



You're right.  The Law was for sinners.  In Christ's coming, a person could finally repent from that life and be able to live for Christ.
The church could become everything Israel was not.  
Israel was filled with unloving religious people.
The church could be filled with people who are convicted and loving.  True children of God.


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## barryl (Jun 25, 2013)

Law-Condemnation. The lord Jesus Christ- Gods perfect "Righteousness"- Liberty,Law fulfilled. 2 words come to mind, Doctrines of "Redemption", the one time price has been paid. No longer under law. Gal. 4:4-5. "Adoption" a changed position, no longer a servant, but a son, a heir. Gal. 4:6-7 KJV AV


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## Israel (Jun 25, 2013)

We accept God's judgment for sin and against sin through the death of the Lord Jesus Christ. We agree in every particular that the law is Holy, Just, and Good. In that we agree...we are not. The truth of this in our apprehension is the measure of our participation in the Lord's death...we live no longer according to the knowledge of good and evil...and the striving to be "good enough" ...but by the spirit. We do not ever take goodness to ourself, claim it for ourself, and indeed we relinquish its pursuit...for ourself. We have come to recognize the dreadful consequences of the self's ill handling of this thing it strives for... to be able to say of itself "I am good". 
"If I do this thing...I am good"...for we have discovered that the self never allows for anything BUT the goodness of itself...and we learn the truth of this in our "self" for our self..."All of a man's ways are right in his own eyes".
Jesus said to the rich young ruler who confidently asserted he had "kept all these things from my youth"..."ONE thing thou lackest"...and it was for him...the ONE thing he could never do by himself of himself...just as it always is for you and I...whenever we resort to OUR confidence we have fulfilled the law's demands...we have not yet died to our own self. I may say '''yes, I love my neighbor...I love God"...but dare I place it against the DEMONSTRATION of the meaning of that seen in Christ? On what ground can I stand when the plumbline is placed against my efforts...my vain imagination that I have fulfilled this as seen in Christ?
Some may say "do you then recommend surrender to being evil?" Do you then say this is a hopeless gospel? God forbid.
We are a different species now. We live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God...we dare not invent our own goodness...manufacture our own approvals...no more than I, as a husband, would be pleased to hear my wife say "I wash your socks, I cook your meals, I clean your house...therefore, "I am a good wife".
No...my love is aroused, provoked, revealed to her in her simple submission and enduring to hear, from me alone..."you please me".
When I was a callous youth, and love was bartered and traded more in word than in truth and I would say "I love you" the expectation and indeed, I came to see, the motivation of my saying that was to precisely hear back "I love you ,too."
Now...in my age, there is nothing that thrills me, nothing that fulfills my joy in my bride, nothing that satisfies all the longing of my heart in my relationship with her... that when I say "I love you"...her simple response is "I believe you". 
The Lord wants us to receive him...and in that...he knows we both love him...and believe him.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 25, 2013)

Israel said:


> We accept God's judgment for sin and against sin through the death of the Lord Jesus Christ. We agree in every particular that the law is Holy, Just, and Good. In that we agree...we are not. The truth of this in our apprehension is the measure of our participation in the Lord's death...we live no longer according to the knowledge of good and evil...and the striving to be "good enough" ...but by the spirit. We do not ever take goodness to ourself, claim it for ourself, and indeed we relinquish its pursuit...for ourself. We have come to recognize the dreadful consequences of the self's ill handling of this thing it strives for... to be able to say of itself "I am good".
> "If I do this thing...I am good"...for we have discovered that the self never allows for anything BUT the goodness of itself...and we learn the truth of this in our "self" for our self..."All of a man's ways are right in his own eyes".
> Jesus said to the rich young ruler who confidently asserted he had "kept all these things from my youth"..."ONE thing thou lackest"...and it was for him...the ONE thing he could never do by himself of himself...just as it always is for you and I...whenever we resort to OUR confidence we have fulfilled the law's demands...we have not yet died to our own self. I may say '''yes, I love my neighbor...I love God"...but dare I place it against the DEMONSTRATION of the meaning of that seen in Christ? On what ground can I stand when the plumbline is placed against my efforts...my vain imagination that I have fulfilled this as seen in Christ?
> Some may say "do you then recommend surrender to being evil?" Do you then say this is a hopeless gospel? God forbid.
> ...



Great way of expressing it.  
.


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## Bama4me (Jun 26, 2013)

Though it's been touched on in the thread, I think it's very important to understand the meaning of "the law" when we read that phrase in Scripture.  Most often, the phrase is used to identify the Law of Moses.  The term "grace" is often used to identify the gospel... the new covenant that was made possible through Christ's blood.

In studying through Romans, you see these two terms used in a comparative way.  Though people HAD been saved in an earlier time period through following "the law" (law of Moses), when Christ died on the cross, He thus established a new way to be saved (through His blood - "grace").  In short, the book of Romans was written so that the superiority of "grace" (the gospel) would be clearly evident... people today cannot follow the law of Moses to have salvation... they must follow Christ.

In Galatians, a similar discussion ensues.  There, you have people who have obeyed the gospel (grace) who are now trying to incorporate elements of the Mosaical law (the law - specifically circumcision) into that gospel.  Rather than saying "people are saved solely through Christ", the brethren were saying "people are saved through Christ AND an ordinance from the Law of Moses".  Thus, the book of Galatians clearly tells us what happens when we try to incorporate elements from another religious system into the gospel.

Despite the seeming opposition of "the law" and "grace", there was a relationship.  Galatians 3:23ff tells us that the law of Moses "brought people to" the gospel (called "faith" in that passage).  Jesus Himself said in Matthew 5:17ff that He had come to fulfill the law of Moses... and that it was important.  However, after the cross, people can no longer be saved by doing the things commanded in the law of Moses... only through the gospel can people be saved today!


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## hobbs27 (Jun 28, 2013)

Im wondering with all this talk of law and grace and works and grace, if we arent somewhat making the same arguments in different ways? Years ago an old man that had spent a lifetime studying and preaching Gods word said something in a bible study one night that has stuck with me and has helped me understand things a whole lot better. I may not remember his exact statement  but it was something like this,
 " Folks, there's a lot in the bible you will never understand until you understand this basic principle.
 The NT is a spiritual kingdom and the OT was a physical kingdom.
 Gods chosen people the Jew in the OT represents Gods chosen people in the NT  the saved. 
The Gentile in the OT represents lost folks in the NT. 
Israel in the OT is represented by the church(Christs Kingdom) in the NT.
 The law in the OT represented the Holy Spirit in the NT."

I say all that to show where we may be missing each other on our arguments. I am strong in my belief of Grace. 
 I believe once a person has had an experience with Gods grace and is converted to a newborn Christian there is no turning back, they are what they are, born into the kingdom of Christ never to be expelled. The Holy Spirit dwells within them, Christs blood flows through their veins, but they are still human and still living inside this old sinful flesh. 
 When they exercise their beliefs through study, worship, and prayer, works will be done through the spirit. These works are wonderous works, they are the fruits of grace.

 Now, for the person that has never been born of the spirit, never had an experience of Gods grace, is wholly flesh. This person may do works to obtain that grace...aint gonna happen! This works are works done through the filthy sinful flesh, works that originate in the mind not the heart and soul of a true believer. These works are done so that the person may boast..."Look at what a great Christian am I !"" I do all these things that God may love me more."  These works are in vain. Its these works that us ( Saved by Grace folks)  are talking about. Works by men of dead dry bones. 
 Works come after grace and glorify God...Not the other way around that works bring on grace and glorify man.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2013)

Why do some Christians become cold? What about Christians that become lukewarm being neither hot or cold? Christians losing hope, losing their way, & not following the light?
If God will eventually round up all the Christians who have gone astray, why all the warnings from God?
Answer: they were never Christian or they won't recieve any rewards. (that's  the best  two justifications)


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## Ronnie T (Jun 28, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why do some Christians become cold? Great question.  Why does the Bible talk of Christians becoming cold???
> 
> What about Christians that become lukewarm being neither hot or cold? Another great question.  Why does the Bible (Holy Spirit) speak of Christians becoming neither hot or cold??
> 
> ...



No place does the Bible speak of us accepting God's grace while denouncing the affect it will have upon our lives.
Again, I've just got to ask this question:  Why is this such a continual subject for some people?  Bro Hobbs talks about ALL these people who believe they are saved by their works.  I don't believe I've ever spoken to any Christian who ever professed they believe they would be saved by their salvation.

I have known Christians, myself included, who become concerned when another Christian begins to grow cold in their attitude and intensity for Christ.  When we see someone suddenly leave their walk in Christ.  We always begin to encourage and help those people along.  Our concern isn't that their works have been reduced.... our concern is that their faithfulness is waning.

And I've also known Christians(?) who never did anything.  Were never a disciple, or anything else, for Christ's church.  Nothing.  No outward expression of their Christianity at all.........  Yet, they claim salvation through God's grace, with nothing of themselves.

But why do we continually debate this issue of Grace verses Works, as they the two are in competition?  Is this the new American Christian subject of discussion?  

Just remember this:  The Bible says one is saved by "faith".

Actually................................................


*25 Things That Saves.*

1.  God 
Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (Romans 8:33)

2.  Jesus 
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

3.  Holy Spirit 
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)

4.  Faith 
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. (Hebrews 11:6)

5.  The Word 
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. (James 1:21)

6.  Preaching 
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Corinthians 1:21)

7. Hearing 
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)

8.  Repentance 
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Corinthians 7:10)

9.  Confession 
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:10)

10.  Baptism 
There is also an antitype which now saves us; baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21)

11.  Grace 
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

12.  Mercy 
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5)

13.  Love 
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

14.  Jesus' Blood 
Who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. (Hebrews 7:27)

15.  Jesus' Life 
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (Romans 5:10)
25 Things That Save.


16.  Jesus' Death 
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. (Romans 5:9)

17.  Gospel 
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

18.  Doing the will of the Lord 
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

19.  Being Righteous 
"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:20)

20.  Enduring to the end 
"And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved." (Matthew 10:22)

21.  Calling on the name of the Lord 
And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. (Acts 2:21)

22.  Doctrine 
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. (1 Timothy 4:16)

23.  Turning a sinner from the error of his way 
Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. (James 5:20)

24.  The name of Jesus 
"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

25.  Childbearing 
Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1 Timothy 2:15)

*Eternal life is found in a combining of most of these verses(not all of them).


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## gemcgrew (Jun 28, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Why is this such a continual subject for some people?


Because words have meaning.... and some continue to tell me what I must do.... to make the sacrifice of Christ effectual.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 28, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Because words have meaning.... and some continue to tell me what I must do.... to make the sacrifice of Christ effectual.



Maybe there are some people who know you personally who are concerned that your Spiritual fruits are not indicating that you have the salvation you claim to have?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 28, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> But why do we continually debate this issue of Grace verses Works, as they the two are in competition?  Is this the new American Christian subject of discussion?



 Surely you know more of Church history than you reveal by asking this question. Its been an ongoing struggle or fight since the first 100 years of the NT church.
 Man can understand works..it can be witnessed by and approved by man.. but Gods grace now thats something we recieve invisible to other men, it is a simple yet confusing thing to those that want to figure out salvation in the mind of man. 
 Men have been trying to come up with all kinds of tricks and gimmicks that satisfy themselves that others have grace....such as infant baptism. 
 These days we have (repeat these words after me) (sign your name on this card) ( just say you believe). All these things are doctrinations that will send good people to he11 if they put all their stock in them and refuse the true calling of God into their hearts....Salvation is so easy a child can understand it...but boy how man has got in the mix and made it complicated... reminds me of the man that reached his arm out to keep the arc from falling and was struck dead by  God.  He really doesnt need our help in saving folks, He just desires that we worship him and are obedient to Him.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2013)

I don't think we can seperate free grace, lordship salvation, God's love, our obedience, etc. I too see it as more of a division than in the past but at the same time I do understand the division in Church history on grace vs works. When did tithing stop being a part of Christianity? When did Churches stop following the 10 commandments? It appears  modern Churches are getting farther away from lordship and more into just grace. I think we need a balance. 
I'm reminded of David Platt and his belief in lordship salvation. The first time I heard him I was against his teachings. Now I can see what he is saying. Like Hobbs said, you can't repeat after me and be saved.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2013)

Maybe the key is how the two camps view repentance. Is it a work?
Acts 20:21 
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Could someone accept Jesus as savior at 12 and as lord at 21?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2013)

The main change in our local Churches is the belief in accepting Jesus as savior without accepting him as Lord.
Churches have seperated those two and thus the divisions.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 28, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Maybe there are some people who know you personally who are concerned that your Spiritual fruits are not indicating that you have the salvation you claim to have?


I would encourage them to confront me and discuss it. My comment was in the context of this forum.

I can think of a couple such confrontations in the last several years however...

A "Christian" coworker told me that if my mom did not recover from her cancer, it was due to her lack of faith.

A "Christian" coworker found out that I was struggling financially. He approached one day and told me that I was apparently not tithing enough or God would be blessing me more.

A "Christian" relative once told me that I could not smoke a cigarette and be a Christian.

I did not sense any love or concern in any of the above examples. It was more of a self righteous... look at me... kind of thing.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 28, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I would encourage them to confront me and discuss it. My comment was in the context of this forum.
> 
> I can think of a couple such confrontations in the last several years however...
> 
> ...



Sorry about that..... And I guess I should be even more thankful that I associate with the kind of Christians I do.
But I have heard the cigarette sin before.  And the going fishing on Sunday afternoon.
.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2013)

I would still like an answer as to why all the verses from God warning Christians in the Bible? For argument's sake let's say you are always saved. What are the warnings for? If God himself has moved into my body in the form of the Holy Spirit and I no longer have to perform the work of God, because God now performs his work through me, why the warnings? How could I possibly fall, grow cold, backslide, or whatever you want to call it if God himself is in me? Again I'm not talking about losing salvation in this question.
I guess my question is how come some Christians grow cold even with God living in them? It happens thus the warnings from God. 
A lot of God's warnings are tied to the "end times" and  staying steadfast to the end. 
If it's all layed out in an easy format to "just believe" and begin your simple easy believism journey, why the warnings?
How could someone produce fruits for 5,10, 20 years and just stop with God living in their heart?
And to all of you who say it's just that easy, just repeat after me. Is that what you truly believe? If not then you are just as guilty as me by adding fruits in the form of faith, repentance, discipleship, & lordship. You are now saying we must have some proof that a mighty all powerful God has saved you. And this proof in the form of fruits must last your entire life. If you grow cold in 30 years well, you were never saved.
So as I ramble and in closing, why the warnings from God to Christians? Is it just for stars in our crown? Is it possible we might continue to have freewill even after conversion?


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## Israel (Jun 29, 2013)

No one has free will but the Lord.
And no one knows free will till the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Having choice is not "free will".


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## StriperAddict (Jun 29, 2013)

Art, one answer is that it is no less grace of those in the body to assist a fallen soilder.  I think every blood bought believer can testify of those times when busy-ness  and the world's pressure push us away, in sorts, to our intimate relationship with our Lord.  A drift here and there can lead to want of that pleasure country where a saint may find himself with that false belief starting up that his/her needs can be met outside of Christ. That was the lie of the Garden and it is fully alive today.
So when you or I lift up another, it's to dust off those lies and build another in the faith - something we all will be doing, and in like manner at times, have done to us by wise caring counsel.

Warnings aren't the food of the spirit, but of a soul needing the check to turn into the love that has never left nor will ever leave. 
In one big sence its so we get our communication with Father back, the "pipe" on our end getting dirty.
Yet He will still bring grace to help in those times, always.


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## barryl (Jun 29, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would still like an answer as to why all the verses from God warning Christians in the Bible? For argument's sake let's say you are always saved. What are the warnings for? If God himself has moved into my body in the form of the Holy Spirit and I no longer have to perform the work of God, because God now performs his work through me, why the warnings? How could I possibly fall, grow cold, backslide, or whatever you want to call it if God himself is in me? Again I'm not talking about losing salvation in this question.
> I guess my question is how come some Christians grow cold even with God living in them? It happens thus the warnings from God.
> A lot of God's warnings are tied to the "end times" and  staying steadfast to the end.
> If it's all layed out in an easy format to "just believe" and begin your simple easy believism journey, why the warnings?
> ...


You asked, how can someone grow cold? I ask,are you always on top of the Mountain? Romans 5:3 KJV AV. Another reason, stay in the word of God! Another reason, a weak prayer life! Stay under "Sound Preaching".


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## gemcgrew (Jun 29, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would still like an answer as to why all the verses from God warning Christians in the Bible? For argument's sake let's say you are always saved. What are the warnings for?


These warnings are one of the means by which God preserves them. Reprobates will ignore them, elect will heed them.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"


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## Israel (Jun 30, 2013)

Unbelievers are used of God. It might irk them to know what a useful "tool" they are till they repent. Shouldn't believers be as irked when used of Satan unknowingly?
That's all the "warnings" are...stay happy...don't allow yourself to be unknowingly used.
When we see how joyous God is...it's less a wonder why he would want his people as happy as He.


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## barryl (Jul 2, 2013)

Acts Ch.15 is a good chapter to study concerning this thread title.


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## barryl (Aug 5, 2013)

"Propitiation", "Justification" Romans Ch. 3:21-31 KJV AV 26- To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27-Where is thy boasting then? It is excluded. By what Law? of works? Nay: but by the Law of faith. 28- Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2013)

Does salvation happen in a moment? Is it really that easy?


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## Ronnie T (Aug 5, 2013)

barryl said:


> "Propitiation", "Justification" Romans Ch. 3:21-31 KJV AV 26- To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27-Where is thy boasting then? It is excluded. By what Law? of works? Nay: but by the Law of faith. 28- Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law.



In the early church Paul was continually troubled by the Jewish Christians who claimed that all Christians (even Gentile) had to comply with Jewish requirements in order to be saved by the blood of Jesus.

It was a real problem for Paul.  Here he was, traveling from city to city teaching the Gospel of Christ, teaching Christians how to live in a "heart" relationship with Christ..... but right behind him were people teaching that a Christian had to be circumcised.

But true circumcision comes as a person's heart is purified in Christ.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does salvation happen in a moment? Is it really that easy?



It really is that easy for us..Jesus did all the hard stuff.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does salvation happen in a moment? Is it really that easy?


No physical act required.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 5, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> No physical act required.



To make that statement, or to teach it, would be to ignore the instructions of Jesus to His apostles, and ignore the apostles actions and teachings as the lost were being saved.
Rather than analyze and bring modern day theology into  Jesus' teachings and instructions, why not just do it the way Jesus instructed it be done, and the way apostles carried it out?

Doesn't it seen a bit worldly to just say, "No, you don't have to do it the way Jesus instructed it be done"?

Hey, that's a great question:
"What instruction did Jesus give to His apostles about the specifics of salvation to believers?"

It began by Him saying:  "Go ye into the whole world...."


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## hummerpoo (Aug 5, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> To make that statement, or to teach it, would be to ignore the instructions of Jesus to His apostles, and ignore the apostles actions and teachings as the lost were being saved.
> Rather than analyze and bring modern day theology into  Jesus' teachings and instructions, why not just do it the way Jesus instructed it be done, and the way apostles carried it out?
> 
> Doesn't it seen a bit worldly to just say, "No, you don't have to do it the way Jesus instructed it be done"?
> ...



Just in case you get something started here, I'll thow my $.02 in early.  I believe that it says "having gone", which gives a "lifestyle" twist to evangalism.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 5, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> Just in case you get something started here, I'll thow my $.02 in early.  I believe that it says "having gone", which gives a "lifestyle" twist to evangalism.



It does not so!  Trouble maker.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 5, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> Just in case you get something started here, I'll thow my $.02 in early.  I believe that it says "having gone", which gives a "lifestyle" twist to evangalism.


That is a little more than $.02. 

I was hit with a question a few days ago, "If the gospel was preached to every creature which is under heaven (Colossians 1:23), what is left for us to accomplish?


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## gemcgrew (Aug 5, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> It does not so!  Trouble maker.


http://biblehub.com/text/mark/16-15.htm


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## Israel (Aug 5, 2013)

A man discover how things have always been.
A man sees the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
A man may realize what remains of stubborness in himself is the only thing that keeps him from enjoying this inheritance he has discovered...fully.
This man may come to the point where recognition of that stubborness is seen most plainly when being instructed in something, he is prone to ask "why should I do that?"
A man may come to the point where he recognizes that those who may not have quite seen this stubborness in the terms he now plainly sees it, in order to satisfy something in themselves...have come up with many "becauses"
Because if I don't preach...people will go to gehenna.
Because if I don't preach, I will go to gehenna.
Because if I don't "do something"...the world will lack...something.

All these becauses undercut the central ground of faith...that the Sovereign God of all will always do right...and as much as it formerly pleased this man to think himself necessary in much...he now finds only one thing necessary...abiding in, and with a friend...who had prepared a place for him before the world ever was.
And so...because this man is pleased with nothing less than seeing his friend's good pleasure in the fellowship for which he paid a very great price...a man may be won to doing only what he sees this friend doing, just to stay in his presence...with him.

Sometimes, this man may even find himself lost again in the inventions of becauses...to avoid something that seems to have no merit to it...no glory in it, no hope in it...but he sees...that is where his friend is headed...and it is enough to follow...just to be with him.
And in that...the foolishness of the unnecessary is revealed in the invitation of hilariously generous excess of doing what can never  be done of obligation...but is necessary for others to see joy.
And a man may even come to realize that instructions to preach the gospel _is a gift to him_, as it has always been...and that by that doing...he is given more of joy to see.
Even in others.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 5, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> To make that statement, or to teach it, would be to ignore the instructions of Jesus to His apostles, and ignore the apostles actions and teachings as the lost were being saved.
> Rather than analyze and bring modern day theology into  Jesus' teachings and instructions, why not just do it the way Jesus instructed it be done, and the way apostles carried it out?
> 
> Doesn't it seen a bit worldly to just say, "No, you don't have to do it the way Jesus instructed it be done"?
> ...




Discipleship is what Christians do in obedience...Salvation is what makes one a Christian. Jesus' Apostles/Disciples...even they had no way to salvation until the blood and water poured out our Saviors side. 
 You may see it differently though.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 5, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> http://biblehub.com/text/mark/16-15.htm



Or.

http://biblelexicon.org/mark/16-15.htm


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## Ronnie T (Aug 5, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> To make that statement, or to teach it, would be to ignore the instructions of Jesus to His apostles, and ignore the apostles actions and teachings as the lost were being saved.
> Rather than analyze and bring modern day theology into  Jesus' teachings and instructions, why not just do it the way Jesus instructed it be done, and the way apostles carried it out?
> 
> Doesn't it seen a bit worldly to just say, "No, you don't have to do it the way Jesus instructed it be done"?
> ...





hobbs27 said:


> Discipleship is what Christians do in obedience...Salvation is what makes one a Christian. Jesus' Apostles/Disciples...even they had no way to salvation until the blood and water poured out our Saviors side.
> You may see it differently though.



I'm gonna have to refer you back to my question above.  I agree with you concerning Jesus' blood.
But look at my question above.


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## Israel (Aug 5, 2013)

I will say with great boldness...or timidity, perhaps...that it really only is in the "going" we begin to learn what the gospel is...and so even in this instruction lay the Lord's desire that we know...as he knows...and be full of joy...no less than he.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> It really is that easy for us..Jesus did all the hard stuff.



So the lesbian United Church of Christ preacher is saved after all? Now over the years she can work on her discipleship at her leisure to show her obedience. Her name is recorded in the Lamb's Book of Life.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> No physical act required.



No mental acts of work either. The lesbian United Church of Christ preacher will be glad for the "blessed assurance" which happened in her moment of salvation. 
She will be especially grateful for the Gift of grace alone, that God is no respecter of man, that her past works/action didn't have any bearing on her Election, and that she is well on her way to Heaven. 
Now she can work on her believeing, faith, repentance, and obedience as the Holy Spirit dishes out these qualities to her.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> That is a little more than $.02.
> 
> I was hit with a question a few days ago, "If the gospel was preached to every creature which is under heaven (Colossians 1:23), what is left for us to accomplish?



We Arminians see the verses concerning The Great Commission, of telling the world about Jesus, the way Calvinist see the verses on praying. We're just following New Testament commandments. 
Neither amount to changing anything, God just thought it would be a great way to show obedience.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> These warnings are one of the means by which God preserves them. Reprobates will ignore them, elect will heed them.
> 
> "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"



Why does the Christian who was saved in a moment need any type of commandments for obedience, responsibilities, or to be preserved? If they are saved then they are saved. If saved by free will or election Christians are saved in a moment. It matters not what denomination you are if you are called to God by his free gift of Grace. It matters not why you accept his free gift of grace. Once you have it, you have it. God is no respecter of man.  He isn't basing his gift to you on any past or present lifestyle. There can't be any future works done by you to prove salvation, only to show obedience. Obedience through any form of sanctification happens by the power of the Holy Spirit in his due time. This isn't proof of someone not receiving salvation. It will happen when the Holy Spirit gets good and ready for it to happen. Reprobates never get this chance. 
Works in the form of anything only amounts to obedience, not proof of salvation. Again, salvation occurs in an instant as a result of God's grace.
New Testament  commandments aren't for reprobates. Reprobates aren't saved in a moment, Christians are. Proof of salvation in a moment is the free gift of Grace. When a person enters that moment of salvation either by his free will to believe or God's election, he is saved. It doesn't matter to the individual why he was called or why he heeded the call. He only knows he answered the call.

God pretty much doesn't care how you've acted in the past or future. He already knows how you'll act in the future. He has mercy on whomever he has mercy on. 
Romans 9:18
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why does the Christian who was saved in a moment need any type of commandments for obedience, responsibilities, or to be preserved?


Study it and let me know what you conclude.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Study it and let me know what you conclude.



I already know the answer. It's using my free will to obey the Greatest commandment and the second greatest commandment as told by Jesus. 
I think it has more to using our free will to love God and others as it does about showing obedience to God. 
If God was more concerned with us following commandments of obedience instead of helping others, he would not have issued the two New Testament commandments of love. 
Then again I believe there is more to prayer and everything else than just obedience and responsibility.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> The lesbian United Church of Christ preacher will be glad for the "blessed assurance" which happened in her moment of salvation.


Do you have an actual person in mind here or are you just bored?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Do you have an actual person in mind here or are you just bored?



It was in reference to another thread:
My In-Laws United Church of Christ. They have a fantastic lesbian pastor who speaks with honesty, love, compassion and conviction.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=764218

Wonderful that God didn't elect her for her actions and that she was saved by God's free gift of Grace. Now she is waiting on her other free gifts of faith & sanctification.
Those other gifts will help her perform her obedience requirements which has nothing whatsoever to do with that moment of salvation. Works are totally different from salvation. 
Maybe God molded her to be a great preacher. Being the Potter that he is, he can mold clay for good or bad. 
Being that God molded everyone, I'm beginning to wonder
why I'm still awake at this late hour.
Thank God he is making me go to bed. Amen


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## gemcgrew (Aug 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Thank God he is making me go to bed. Amen


The sleep deprivation is obvious.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 6, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> The sleep deprivation is obvious.



It was, I was starting to cross over into Calvinism. I was going to become a Primitive Catholic or Old School Methodist.

I would agree that showing the  love Jesus mentioned in the Great Commandment would most definately show obedience to God. Jesus was stressing that loving God and others would be a better way than some of the Old Testament ways of showing obedience.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 6, 2013)

I'll even agree with the Calvinest Arthur Pink when it comes to obedience and what is required of a Christian:

We are not Christians at all unless we have fully surrendered to and “received Christ Jesus the Lord” (Col. 2:6). We would plead with you to ponder that statement diligently. Satan is deceiving many today by leading them to suppose that they are savingly trusting in “the finished work” of Christ while their hearts remain unchanged and self still rules their lives. Listen to God’s Word: “Salvation is far from the wicked; for they seek not thy statutes” (Psa. 119:155). Do you really seek His statutes? Do you diligently search His Word to discover what He has commanded? “He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (I John 2:4). What could be plainer than that?

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). Obedience to the Lord in life, not merely glowing words from the lips, is what Christ requires. What a searching and solemn word is that in James 1:22: “Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves!” There are many hearers of the Word, regular hearers, reverent hearers, interested hearers; but alas, what they hear is not incorporated into the life: it does not regulate their way. And God says that they who are not doers of the Word are deceiving their own selves!

Alas, how many such there are in Christendom today! They are not downright hypocrites, but deluded. They suppose that because they are so dear upon salvation by grace alone they are saved.

http://www.the-highway.com/obedience_Pink.html


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## hummerpoo (Aug 6, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> It does not so!  Trouble maker.



Guilty as charged.

There are many questions that must be ask to determine how we will react to, or teach, the so called "great commission": to whom is it given?, how?, when? etc.  And we will come up with different answers for the usual reasons.  Personally, I believe the proper emphasis is on discipleship.

My great concern is that we start out right.  I believe great harm has been done by starting with "go", because the most common answer is "obviously, I can't go, here's twenty bucks."  If we start with a correct understanding no such avoidance is possible, whether God has placed one in the position of an evangelist, a foreign missionary, a pastor, a school teacher, a plumber, or a warehouse order picker.

http://75645.inspyred.com/images/The_Mission_of_the_Great_Commission-Outline.pdf
http://www.disciplemagazine.com/www/articles/189.995
http://www.newhopeoburg.com/about.htm
http://berithroad.blogspot.com/2012/05/great-commission-of-discipleship.html
http://www.geocities.com/prbryan.geo/greatcom.htm

I just picked those up from google.  I’m sure there is better material available for study.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 6, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> That is a little more than $.02.
> 
> I was hit with a question a few days ago, "If the gospel was preached to every creature which is under heaven (Colossians 1:23), what is left for us to accomplish?



WOW! I'd probably have to get up from the floor before responding to that one.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 6, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> Guilty as charged.
> 
> There are many questions that must be ask to determine how we will react to, or teach, the so called "great commission": to whom is it given?, how?, when? etc.  And we will come up with different answers for the usual reasons.  Personally, I believe the proper emphasis is on discipleship.
> 
> ...



I totally see what you're saying, and agree.
The Gospel was taken into the world.  The church was established.  The kingdom of God is no longer at hand, it exist - and it is thriving.
The scriptures have been recorded, and missionaries are still being sent and going throughout the world.

There are still churches(congregations) to be planted and nourished. Disciples to be grown.  Christians to be reminded.
Just as done in the 1st century.  Jesus' instructions still as valid as then, and the Gospel still as sweet.


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## Lowjack (Aug 7, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> For those that don't know grace; the law/works is much easier. All one would have to do is impress other people, whether this is feeding the homeless or cutting a big check for the church offering. Making " going to church" a social status instead of a worship session. Church meetings should be all about the Lord and raising him up..I don't even like when the church recognizes my birthday on the lords day...Im only alive because of Him, He deserves all the honor.



You are confusing Magnesium and milk of Magnesia.
The works of the Law are not only doing good deeds the works of the Law is obeying his commandments not for salvation but for the heavenly rewards , in Judgedment day will you be judge by your Faith or by your works ? By your works indeed !http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=142


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## Lowjack (Aug 7, 2013)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=142


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## Israel (Aug 7, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> You are confusing Magnesium and milk of Magnesia.
> The works of the Law are not only doing good deeds the works of the Law is obeying his commandments not for salvation but for the heavenly rewards , in Judgedment day will you be judge by your Faith or by your works ? By your works indeed !http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=142



I had to "come clean" with the Lord. I don't like work. Never have...can't imagine (even more so now) a scenario where I would, or could.

If I speak as an unbeliever, I would say it this way, if the Kingdom of God is no better than the world...do this and you'll receive a certain "thing"...well then...I go a'fishing.
Never had to have my arm twisted for that.

The doing of a thing because it "has to" or "should be"...or "better be"...well...if I don't believe the Kingdom of God is even better than Adam had it (which I do)...it's then I find a drawing requiring no effort on my part, that "makes" me want to find out how good it is. Like a child, I don't have to be coerced to check out how many different rides there are at the party.


I know, I know, what a ridiculous statement.

Let me put it another way.
I had something to do at the house that would benefit all, and it was something I really looked forward to doing. Putting a roof of sorts over the deck area. Shade=Cool. Carpentry=fun. A dry place to sit outside in the rain...nice.
Everyone would "like" it. 

But as my carpentry skills began to show through (altogether absent)...and my inabilities were being made more and more plain...and the dropping of things...and the trying to steady and hold things awkwardly...and the up and down the ladder with an overweight carcass began to tell on me...I easily began to resent my fun project turning into a single handed torment of myself.

Why wouldn't everyone else now drop everything and help? And all the words began to form...unkind words, unkind attitudes...demands and commands...ready to be thundered out.
Yes...what I once saw as fun was decidedly work, now. And I was going to make sure everyone knew just what a hard time I was having...by giving them some of this "hard time".

BUT...I am rebuked. Sharply, soundly, irrefutably. And I know it is right, just, proper, and perfectly fitting that I be so.
"You are the one who is making this "not fun"...do you know why?" I hear in my spirit.

"You have set goals for yourself and vain imaginations of how you thought it should go, and be, and when certain accomplishments are to take place. And certain things that were "Not" to happen." 

Like repeatedly finding the screws strip out far too easily. That a light ladder gets heavy after having to be lugged around to correct previously imperfect measurements that you hoped you could slide by with. That gravity continues to work on items you drop.

Now, you may ask, what has this to do with anything?

Basically...as much as I have been motivated by my "imagination" of what that roof would provide (a reward), how I would do it myself, and in some stupid way achieve some measure of affirmation in myself...to myself "hey, I didn't do a bad job, did I?"...I am now, thankfully, smacked down...reproved, rebuked, but also...at rest.

So, I am reminded. 

"This was and still is a fun thing for us to do together. I didn't go anywhere when you were discovering what a needful carpenter you are...you just didn't want to go at my pace...and stay in step with me. You let the idea of reward take you to a place far from me...for it was self reward. The "work" is a gift...and every discovery of inadequacy in yourself an opportunity to rely on me...and not...as you so easily are wont to do, try to make your gift...into a burden for others. 

But now I also see, that was as much a part of the fun of it as anything. For me to be brought to a place to learn that. To see that, to hear that, to revel in that. The Lord just wants me to do everything with him. 
And that...is the reward. And I can settle for nothing less.



The moment I set out to "do" anything for anyone...and all my inadequacies show up...suddenly, I resent the one I set out to serve.

When I am reproved, and brought back to understand all of my being/existing/doing/obeying...is all a gift with no strings, no performance grade...simply either received...or not...then, again like a child I am impelled to ask..."gee...and it's even better than this...what's next to be found?"

But...it's always him...always him...always him...and always new...and always surprising...and always more life than I thought I had...or could ever be.

Sure, I don't think I'm alone were I to say (as the above testimony adequately shows)...I believe I have the Lord...but I'd also like to see what a finished deck cover can provide in the way of reward, what "other" things might hold some promise of joy.


But I am never disappointed to be reminded...there is nothing else. Not because he sets limits...but because he truly is all there is to ever have or experience.

So, you see, the do something to get something is not a concept with which I am unfamiliar.

But I am always delighted to be shown it is not so.
Just explore what you already have. Find out you can never gain more...

Only _more_ of less time...being rebuked.


You could rightly say, and I could not refute it...except by my own spiritual intuition so to speak, (that is applicable to absolutely NO ONE but myself), that the Lord is SOOOOO GREAT...he could even have something prepared to give you that you will miss if you don't work diligently enough to earn it. And if you believe that...then right you would be to seek to earn it.

For me, I just want to be with him, in that place where no labor is required to "get" something...no "doing" is done with thought of earning...no exchanges take place on a quid pro quo basis...where all is gloriously a celebration of what he, alone, has done, and all praise and attention is given...not because it ought to be...but to the one who inspires all, gives to all...every bit of joy in losing themselves in the endless love of One.

And for this, I am glad you have said what you have said.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 7, 2013)

Israel said:


> For me, I just want to be with him, in that place where no labor is required to "get" something...no "doing" is done with thought of earning...no exchanges take place on a quid pro quo basis...where all is gloriously a celebration of what he, alone, has done, and all praise and attention is given...not because it ought to be...but to the one who inspires all, gives to all...every bit of joy in losing themselves in the endless love of One.



Good stuff Israel! Who came up with such a notion of degrees of reward in heaven? Are we so self-righteous as to desire God to judge and reward us based upon our own works? Good grief man, I shudder to think such a thought. Our only acceptance is Christ. No good thing will be withheld from us.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 8, 2013)

Whoever dies with the most toys wins...Just another self serving idea.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 8, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> You are confusing Magnesium and milk of Magnesia.
> The works of the Law are not only doing good deeds the works of the Law is obeying his commandments not for salvation but for the heavenly rewards , in Judgedment day will you be judge by your Faith or by your works ? By your works indeed !http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=142



I wish you would comment in the thread titled Judgement Day...I would like to hear your opinion on what you consider that to be.Thanks.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=756958


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## Israel (Aug 8, 2013)

Paul came to understand something about being crowned.

Php_4:1  Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved. 

There seems to be a joy discovered in becoming less for the sake of others...a compelling to see efforts to restrain the flesh, not for its own sake...but that others may be presented as such:

Col 1:28  Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 
Col 1:29  Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. 

Paul never seemed to lose sight of this central truth...that it was always and only God working in him to be about those things which are commended before God.
Yes...there was a labor...of love...taking place inside his vessel...of which he plainly testified. He knew well it was far more than his working toward a goal...but that it was always and manifestly the working of the one who had already achieved his goal...now working in him, on Paul's behalf. And compelling Paul to always stretch forward to see, all that had been accomplished on our behalf in Messiah.

I so plainly hear Paul's gratitude at the end of his strong word of instruction by the plain truth of his being:

Gal_2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Yes, Paul knew the one given to him of love...and who, and how that One would be manifest through him...only by walking in the light that Jesus had specifically come for him...to now tell all...in perfect liberty...he has come for you...no less.


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## hawglips (Aug 9, 2013)

These type threads always remind me of this:

13 ¶Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

 14 Because strait is the bate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it....

21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 24 ¶Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


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## Israel (Aug 9, 2013)

hawglips said:


> These type threads always remind me of this:
> 
> 13 ¶Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
> 
> ...



Yes...
I was reminded today on my commute...as though the Lord were saying "Don't you KNOW...everyone calls out to me in the storm?

I am not hard hearted, but I am true."

Again and again I hear in the spirit...pay heed to the truth of the resurrection...don't become so familiar with doctrines...but let the real significance of that sink as far down as it must...ALL is new...ALL is different than it was...and ALL is far better than you have yet seen of imagined...

All things are possible with God...the truth of that is like a rudder set to bring us into all sorts of wonderful, new, and for us at least...uncharted areas.
My own heart needs reminding again and again in this place where routine seeks to rule every bit of heart and mind.

The temptation to be delighted with the knowing of something...must always be exceeded by the desire to know him as he is.
Thanks be to God for the helper of all my weakness.


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## barryl (Aug 21, 2013)

Wasn't sure which thread, so heres to the ones trying to work yourself to heaven. Acts 13:38-39 Paul says, 38- Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethern, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39- And by him all that believe are "justified"{theres that ugly word again} from all things, from which ye could not be "justified" by the Law of Moses. Romans 4:3-5 KJV AV


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## centerpin fan (Aug 21, 2013)

barryl said:


> Wasn't sure which thread, so heres to the ones trying to work yourself to heaven.



Nobody on "my side" is trying to work his way to heaven because we know that is impossible.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.  -- Eph. 2:8-9 NIV UV


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## Ronnie T (Aug 21, 2013)

barryl said:


> Wasn't sure which thread, so heres to the ones trying to work yourself to heaven. Acts 13:38-39 Paul says, 38- Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethern, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39- And by him all that believe are "justified"{theres that ugly word again} from all things, from which ye could not be "justified" by the Law of Moses. Romans 4:3-5 KJV AV



Thank you Bro Barry.  I want it known to everyone here that I have never even attempted to live by the Law of Moses.  There!  Glad I got it out.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 21, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Nobody on "my side" is trying to work his way to heaven because we know that is impossible.
> 
> For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.  -- Eph. 2:8-9 NIV UV



Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

(whispering)  it doesn't matter, he just loves to say it.

Hey.  Let's post some "works" verses.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 21, 2013)

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2 Timothy 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Philippians 2:12-13 - Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Genesis 2:15  Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it      (work)


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## centerpin fan (Aug 22, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
> 
> (whispering)  it doesn't matter, he just loves to say it.
> 
> Hey.  Let's post some "works" verses.




I'll just post my favorite Christian hymn:



_Whistle while you work!
Your salvation must be earned!
Just work and work and work and work,
Or for eternity you will  burn._


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## barryl (Aug 22, 2013)

Don't you boys know you just lost your salvation? Rev. 21:27, 22:15KJV AV Ain't we havin' fun joshin' one another? Once again you tweety birds have confused Faith and repentance, bless ya'lls heart.


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