# Do you have to be good to go to heaven?



## Ronnie T

Recently the young wife of a youth minister told me that "a person doesn't have to be good to go to heaven".

Is that really a true statement?


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## centerpin fan

They need to be born again.  You will know them by their fruit.


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## formula1

*Re:*

There is nothing good you can do to be saved.  God granted salvation by His grace through faith in Jesus to all those who believe.  God's law condemns all men except by this truth and the acceptance of it!

But doesn't it make sense that those who believe (that is trust and live) in Christ by faith would bear the fruits of Christ living in Him and working through Him. I don't think it can be defined as 'us doing good' but rather Christ doing His works through us, and therefore His works are good.

John 15:5
I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.


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## barryl

Amen !!!!!!! Cf, f1


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## Artfuldodger

You have to believe in Jesus first, then you have to live as Jesus did. You never can live as perfectly as he did but you have to try. If you don't try to live as Jesus did, you won't go to Heaven. It takes something from you as well as God. It's like a marriage. It takes two to make it work.


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## Michael F. Gray

Paul said it best in I Corinthians 11:1


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## hummerpoo

I have know way of knowing the lady's meaning, but Mark 10:18 jumped to my mind when I read her statement.
"And Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone' ".


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## Ronnie T

hummerpoo said:


> I have know way of knowing the lady's meaning, but Mark 10:18 jumped to my mind when I read her statement.
> "And Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone' ".



Yeah I know what you mean.
But her statement leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
We certainly should never consider ourselves good, but when a person says, "I don't have to be good to go to heaven" something got missed in the discipleship class.


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## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> I have know way of knowing the lady's meaning, but Mark 10:18 jumped to my mind when I read her statement.
> "And Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone' ".



It sounds like Jesus is saying he isn't God. If Jesus isn't good, then is he saying he isn't perfect? In this same story he tells the man he must follow God's commandments and get rid of his worldly goods, if he wants to go to Heaven. 
By what he told this man, there is more to getting to Heaven than being saved. There is something the man must do himself.
• Opening, Mark 10:17: Jesus was leaving on a trip when a rich young man came running up to Him asking how he could get to heaven.

• Middle, Mark 10:18-21: Jesus had a conversation with the young man telling him to obey the commandments to reach heaven. Jesus loves the man offers the young man a chance to follow Him, and he rejects Jesus offer.

• Closing, Mark 10:22: As a rich person, he was unable to give up material goods for spiritual goods to attain heaven.

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/282550


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## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> Yeah I know what you mean.
> But her statement leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
> We certainly should never consider ourselves good, but when a person says, "I don't have to be good to go to heaven" something got missed in the discipleship class.



Me too, on the bad taste.  I hope her need is for better communication skills.


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> It sounds like Jesus is saying he isn't God. If Jesus isn't good, then is he saying he isn't perfect? In this same story he tells the man he must follow God's commandments and get rid of his worldly goods, if he wants to go to Heaven.
> By what he told this man, there is more to getting to Heaven than being saved. There is something the man must do himself.
> • Opening, Mark 10:17: Jesus was leaving on a trip when a rich young man came running up to Him asking how he could get to heaven.
> 
> • Middle, Mark 10:18-21: Jesus had a conversation with the young man telling him to obey the commandments to reach heaven. Jesus loves the man offers the young man a chance to follow Him, and he rejects Jesus offer.
> 
> • Closing, Mark 10:22: As a rich person, he was unable to give up material goods for spiritual goods to attain heaven.
> 
> Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/282550



To the contrary, it sounds like Jesus is saying "Do you know that I am God?"
In asking about the commandments he is saying "Do you practice the teachings of Moses?"
Next He says, "Then follow Me in true discipleship", and that was the answer to "what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

But that is not the "closing", far from it, it continues through vs. 31.  I'll not write a study of the passage here, as it is off topic, but if you choose to study it, please don't miss the key implications of  "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."

One more note, be very cautious of on-line information.  There are no substitutes there for the Holy Spirit.


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## fish hawk

Artfuldodger said:


> You never can live as perfectly as he did but you have to try. If you don't try to live as Jesus did, you won't go to Heaven.



Sorry i have to respectfully disagree.....The if you don't try to live as Jesus did,you wont go to heaven part.
Who can even come close to living as Jesus did?
John 3:7 Ye must be born again
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Acts 16_30-13 Sirs,what must I do to be saved?And they said.Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Matthew 10:32  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
God's power will save you,keep you saved and enable you to live the life he has call you to.
God's gift of salvation is a free gift.If God gives you something do you think he's gonna take it back?
You have to look no further than Davids life to see that once your saved your always saved.
When you become a Christian you are instantly transformed and should strive to live a life thats good and pleasing to God.
For instance:A person gives there life and heart to Jesus at the age of 15,they do what God has commanded them to do as far as gaining there salvation.At the age of 18 they fall into temptation, start living a worldly life,but they still believe in God,but maybe there not exactly living for him and are doing thing that are not so good.Then at the age of 30 they start living for the Lord again.Say they died between the ages of 18-30, when they were not doing good or not living for the Lord does this mean between those years they were not saved?Is that what your saying?
I think as Christians we should live the best life we can and try to do good.I think we should follow Jesus' teachings,commandments and examples,but for most of us trying to live as Jesus did is an unattainable burden that can never be achieved by most.....thats why we have the free gift of salvation!!!It lifts that burden.


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## fish hawk

Ronnie T said:


> Recently the young wife of a youth minister told me that "a person doesn't have to be good to go to heaven".
> 
> Is that really a true statement?





Ronnie T said:


> Yeah I know what you mean.
> But her statement leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
> We certainly should never consider ourselves good, but when a person says, "I don't have to be good to go to heaven" something got missed in the discipleship class.



Ronnie i think her statement should require further explanations,especially if she was telling this to a new believer.
I get what your saying though.


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## Artfuldodger

fish hawk said:


> Sorry i have to respectfully disagree.....The if you don't try to live as Jesus did,you wont go to heaven part.
> For instance:A person gives there life and heart to Jesus at the age of 15,they do what God has commanded them to do as far as gaining there salvation.At the age of 18 they fall into temptation, start living a worldly life,but they still believe in God,but maybe there not exactly living for him and are doing thing that are not so good.Then at the age of 30 they start living for the Lord again.Say they died between the ages of 18-30, when they were not doing good or not living for the Lord does this mean between those years they were not saved?Is that what your saying?


Yes that's what i'm saying. I don't believe in "once saved always saved."  What if the person strays and never comes back? The same person could stray so far that he proclaims he is a atheist and die before he goes back to the Church. Some atheist do this. Some repent and come back to Jesus. I feel if they were to die in this state of non-belief, they would not go to Heaven. 
Matthew 12:30
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.


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## gordon 2

I don't know if a parallel if apropriate, but the Hebrews were "saved" from bondage in Egypt--Yet, the first generation did not enter into the Promised Land. They were not "good" in that they were adulterous to the God of Abraham.  They ended wondering in the desert a full generation or two.

So christians are "saved" by the Cross from the world of sin, but yet we are not "saved" for being into the Kingdom if we refuse it... because like the first generation of Hebrews we cling to adulterous relationships and cannot enter, or don't what to enter, though we call ourselves saved, called and chosen. 

Wherever the Kingdom will lead to, like the first generation of Hebrews, we will not get "overthere" but perhaps our children and great grand children will for being "good".

So yes we are saved from the world and can yet be ungodly, but we cannot be saved into anything Kingdom and Heaven and be to other gods and to the men of old gods. For this lack of goodness we (generations) are doomed to wonder...alot, just like Moses and his people.

So yes again we can be saved from and don't have to be good, but we wonder like the first generations of Hebrews wondered their deserts, refusing to be good and saved into our Promised Land.

This is perhaps a very crude analogy, but lets say that many, myself and others, are called to serve and to be marines ( Marine Corp).  Now after basic training, how long do you think we would be marines if we did not fight like marines, struck out on our own, scoffed at Esprit -de- Corp, knew not who was friendly and who was not, and why and for who we served? I wonder.


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## fish hawk

Artfuldodger said:


> Yes that's what i'm saying. I don't believe in "once saved always saved."  What if the person strays and never comes back? The same person could stray so far that he proclaims he is a atheist and die before he goes back to the Church. Some atheist do this. Some repent and come back to Jesus. I feel if they were to die in this state of non-belief, they would not go to Heaven.
> Matthew 12:30
> King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
> He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.



I think we have to look no further than the story of the prodigal son 
Luke 15:11-21

New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Lost Son
 11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

   13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

   17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.

   “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

   21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

   22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate....... 
Even though the father knew his son was off in the far country ,squandered his wealth in wild living and not living to please the Lord.He still loved him.

Also:
John 10:28-30

New International Version (NIV)
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”


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## pthunter74

Short answer is no.Convicted mass murderer on the electric chair repents and accepts Jesus as lord and savior gets into heaven but that dosent make him a good person.


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## Ronnie T

fish hawk said:


> I think we have to look no further than the story of the prodigal son
> Luke 15:11-21
> 
> New International Version (NIV)
> The Parable of the Lost Son
> 11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.
> 
> 13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.
> 
> 17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.
> 
> “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
> 
> 21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
> 
> 22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.......
> Even though the father knew his son was off in the far country ,squandered his wealth in wild living and not living to please the Lord.He still loved him.
> 
> Also:
> John 10:28-30
> 
> New International Version (NIV)
> 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”



If you've read many of my forum comments you probably already know that I put no value in the modern-day teaching of once saved always saved.
As for the prodigal son;  the young man was seperated from his father and lost "until" the son chose to return.  The father did not go get him, and the father had nothing for the son "until" the son returned.
The same is true of our relationship with God.

Does a person have to be good to go to heaven?  
The real question:  "Will a saved person strive to be good?


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## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> If you've read many of my forum comments you probably already know that I put no value in the modern-day teaching of once saved always saved.
> As for the prodigal son;  the young man was seperated from his father and lost "until" the son chose to return.  The father did not go get him, and the father had nothing for the son "until" the son returned.
> The same is true of our relationship with God.
> 
> Does a person have to be good to go to heaven?
> The real question:  "Will a saved person strive to be good?



Now we're on the narrow path.


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## RBM

Artfuldodger said:
			
		

> Yes that's what i'm saying. I don't believe in "once saved always saved." What if the person strays and never comes back? The same person could stray so far that he proclaims he is a atheist and die before he goes back to the Church. Some atheist do this. Some repent and come back to Jesus. I feel if they were to die in this state of non-belief, they would not go to Heaven.





			
				Ronnie T said:
			
		

> If you've read many of my forum comments you probably already know that I put no value in the modern-day teaching of once saved always saved.



I don't call once saved always saved "modern-day" teaching. It has always been this way for many Christians. So its "old-day" teaching. My belief is Christ died once for all folk as the perfect sacrifice. He does not need to die more than once. We die once with Christ, buried in water, and raised to new life in like manner of Christ's example. So once saved always saved in like manner. If a person who "claims" to be saved goes so far away from Christ then they need to take a long hard look at "if" they were saved to begin with. There are times we stray and do need to repent but we know we need to repent through the "pulling" of Christ and the Spirit of God (the Comforter) on our hearts. Even scripture calls this backsliding. It is not up to us to determine the salvation of someone else, only our own salvation. We are not saved by emotions but by Christ who "changes" the heart and spirit at the age of accountability when we know the need for Christ. As a personal experience, only God and the person knows the transformation of heart and spirit. Are we going to say, "I was saved yesterday but not today?" God forbid. How many times did Christ die and rise from the dead? I can bring up the scripture to reinforce once saved always saved.

Psalms 103:10-12
John 14:1-4
John 6:37
John 10:28
Romans 5:8-9
Romans 8:16,17,23
Romans 8:28-39
Ephesians 1:13, 4:30
Philippians 1:6
2 Timothy 1:12
1 John 3:14, 5:12


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## fish hawk

Ronnie T said:


> As for the prodigal son;  the young man was seperated from his father and lost "until" the son chose to return.  The father did not go get him, and the father had nothing for the son "until" the son returned.
> The same is true of our relationship with God.



But his father still loved him!!!


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> As for the prodigal son;  the young man was seperated from his father and lost "until" the son chose to return.  The father did not go get him, and the father had nothing for the son "until" the son returned.
> The same is true of our relationship with God.


The key is the son chose to return as Ronnie pointed out. Of course the father still loved him. What father wouldn't? No one can snatch you from God's hands but you can yourself. Your free will doesn't vanish when you get saved. Once saved always saved must go hand in hand with election.
I don't think we can say , well that person was never saved.
Go over to the triple A, atheist & others forum and ask some of the former Christians if they were once saved.


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## Ronnie T

RBM said:


> I don't call once saved always saved "modern-day" teaching. It has always been this way for many Christians. So its "old-day" teaching. My belief is Christ died once for all folk as the perfect sacrifice. He does not need to die more than once. We die once with Christ, buried in water, and raised to new life in like manner of Christ's example. So once saved always saved in like manner. If a person who "claims" to be saved goes so far away from Christ then they need to take a long hard look at "if" they were saved to begin with. There are times we stray and do need to repent but we know we need to repent through the "pulling" of Christ and the Spirit of God (the Comforter) on our hearts. Even scripture calls this backsliding. It is not up to us to determine the salvation of someone else, only our own salvation. We are not saved by emotions but by Christ who "changes" the heart and spirit at the age of accountability when we know the need for Christ. As a personal experience, only God and the person knows the transformation of heart and spirit. Are we going to say, "I was saved yesterday but not today?" God forbid.
> 
> How many times did Christ die and rise from the dead?  That has absolutely nothing at all to do with once saved always saved
> 
> I can bring up the scripture to reinforce once saved always saved.
> 
> Psalms 103:10-12
> John 14:1-4
> John 6:37
> John 10:28
> Romans 5:8-9
> Romans 8:16,17,23
> Romans 8:28-39
> Ephesians 1:13, 4:30
> Philippians 1:6
> 2 Timothy 1:12
> 1 John 3:14, 5:12



There isn't one scripture above that substantiates once saved always saved.  None of them.  Once saved always saved is a fairly new phenomenon.  For many many centuries, there was no such belief and no such teaching.
I know, there are an enormous number of Christians who disagree with me.
We really don't need to discuss it.
It's off topic anyhow.


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## Artfuldodger

pthunter74 said:


> Short answer is no.Convicted mass murderer on the electric chair repents and accepts Jesus as lord and savior gets into heaven but that dosent make him a good person.



You really got me on that one. I've seen men live their whole lives dedicated to God and living right. I've seen bad evil men repent right before dying of cancer. I guess this is where the rewards come into play.


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## fish hawk

Artfuldodger said:


> Go over to the triple A, atheist & others forum and ask some of the former Christians if they were once saved.



Thats quite alright....I try not to spend too much time there.....I'll just look for my answers in the bible or ask my pastor!!!!I try not to get advice on spiritual matters from atheist.....yall rock on brother.I'll just sit hear and be happy and secure in my salvation.


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Recently the young wife of a youth minister told me that "a person doesn't have to be good to go to heaven".
> 
> Is that really a true statement?



Yes, it really is a true statement.There is only one sin that will not be forgiven," blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". (My understanding) and the reason I use my understanding ,is because I don't want to be one of those that say it's my way or else. Is that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is denying his call to salvation. If He calls and you answer, you will be saved.The Book tells us there will be many that did works in his name, they healed in his name, yet he never knew them.It's by Grace you are saved , not by works. Grace being that of an undeserved love...too many folks are going to die thinking they did a good enough job...but never answered his calling and drawing spirit.If salvation were of works, would not man boast of how great they are?


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## Ole Crip

formula1 said:


> There is nothing good you can do to be saved.  God granted salvation by His grace through faith in Jesus to all those who believe.  God's law condemns all men except by this truth and the acceptance of it!
> 
> But doesn't it make sense that those who believe (that is trust and live) in Christ by faith would bear the fruits of Christ living in Him and working through Him. I don't think it can be defined as 'us doing good' but rather Christ doing His works through us, and therefore His works are good.
> 
> John 15:5
> I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.


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## Huntinfool

In a very simplistic way...

She didn't say you have to be good to be saved.

You have to be saved to go to heaven.  You have to be good if you are saved.

Good does not save.  Christ does.  The result of the HS in us....is "good".

Let me put it this way.  If you are saved, you will be "good" from the world's perspective because the HS is in you.  

So, in a sense, yes...you do have to be good if you're going to heaven.  Not to be saved, but BECAUSE you are saved.  It doesn't save you.  It's an indicator of salvation.


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## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> Recently the young wife of a youth minister told me that "a person doesn't have to be good to go to heaven".
> 
> Is that really a true statement?



Yes....example...the thief on the cross.



Ronnie T said:


> But her statement leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
> We certainly should never consider ourselves good, but when a person says, "I don't have to be good to go to heaven" something got missed in the discipleship class.



Sounds like the response of the religious leaders in Christ's time.



Ronnie T said:


> The real question:  "Will a saved person strive to be good?



Ahh...now you're changing the question.

Yes, a saved person will strive to be good.



Why do we try so hard to change the gospel from something that God does to something we do?


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## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Why do we try so hard to change the gospel from something that God does to something we do?



Calvinist!


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## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> Calvinist!






You don't have to be a Calvanist to believe that Salvation is not by works.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [h]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. 



I added vs. 10 for everyone so that I wouldn't be accused of cherry picking verses.  But I will say, if you look at vs 10, those good works do not come from us...but come from God.

A Christ-centered Gospel is what is taught in the Bible.  However, within a century or two of Christ's life, that began to shift to a man-centered gospel.  Only one is a true saving gospel....the other...well...


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## Ronnie T

Rj.

Listen, pay close attention and stop changing the subject.  Okay?

This question has nothing to do with being saved by works.

The question has to do with whether a person can believe they got save; then move on with a life that never thinks about repentance and moving towards godly ways..........  And a youth minister's wife saying it's an acceptable belief. And she even advocates it.

Do you get it now?


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## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> Rj.
> 
> Listen, pay close attention and stop changing the subject.  Okay?





First, how am I changing the subject?

Second, what thread in this forum doesn't get side-tracked a little bit?



			
				RonnieT said:
			
		

> This question has nothing to do with being saved by works.
> 
> The question has to do with whether a person can believe they got save; then move on with a life that never thinks about repentance and moving towards godly ways..........  And a youth minister's wife saying it's an acceptable belief. And she even advocates it.
> 
> Do you get it now?



You are adding detail...changing the original question...You are going to get a different response.

The first post/question asked a single question...to which I answered.  Look at the thief on the cross.  Lived a horrible life....was sentenced to death...yet somehow....made it to Heaven.  


So I ask....Was he a good person?


Now, to answer your last post...your last post describes a false gospel.  No, a person can't be a Christian and never think about Christ....to which I also answered above.


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Rj.
> 
> 
> The question has to do with whether a person can believe they got save; then move on with a life that never thinks about repentance and moving towards godly ways..........  And a youth minister's wife saying it's an acceptable belief. And she even advocates it.



A close friend of mine struggles with this all the time.He believes salvation can be lost, He can't defend it by not making himself sound as he is boasting or judging others.
He believes he is great and maintains salvation because even though he admits he sins, he says he's in constant repentence..Then he judges those that go out drinking, or stay out of church and cuts their grass on Sunday...They are going to heII because according to him they aren't repenting, either way he is selfrightous.
 But when you understand Grace, and know that we all are deserving of HeII-, and you realize that sin is sin and we all do it..you realize just what a debtor you are to Jesus, and how great he is.
 As for sinning after salvation...he will never forsake you, but he will chastise you...It's between you and Him!


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## Ronnie T

So are some of you saying that the young lady is correct in proclaiming to the young people of the church her husbands serves that "you don't have to be good!"  ?


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## RBM

Ronnie T said:
			
		

> How many times did Christ die and rise from the dead? That has absolutely nothing at all to do with once saved always saved
> 
> There isn't one scripture above that substantiates once saved always saved. None of them. Once saved always saved is a fairly new phenomenon. For many many centuries, there was no such belief and no such teaching.
> I know, there are an enormous number of Christians who disagree with me.
> We really don't need to discuss it.
> It's off topic anyhow.



My point was that if a person is falling in and out of salvation, how many times does Christ need to sacrifice Himself to save a person once and for all? So Christ sacrificed Himself once for all and we follow Him in the death of the "old man" of the world as Paul puts it to put on the "new man" in Christ.

If we are sealed as the scripture says, then we cannot be unsealed. If Christ said that no man and nothing can pluck the saved out of His hand, then no man and nothing can pluck the saved out of His hand. There are plenty of scriptures to back up once saved always saved and I just gave a lot of them. Yes it is off topic but I did not bring it up. I guess that we can just agree to disagree.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> So are some of you saying that the young lady is correct in proclaiming to the young people of the church her husbands serves that "you don't have to be good!"  ?



Looking over the posts I would say most are saying that, not just some....I don't know what she said after the initial statement that got your attention.Ive taught teens and adults and there's times you need to make a blunt statement to get folks minds to working.
 What she said is true, but it needs to be explained .


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## Artfuldodger

What are some verses that say a person must do something? What are some verses where a person can depart from the faith?

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven." (Matt. 7:21)

"He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13)

"All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it. Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win. Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified." (1 Cor. 9:23-27)
"If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:26-27)

"So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling." (Phil. 2:12)
"For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them." (2 Peter 2:20-21)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
1Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. 
I Cor 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 

I TIMOTHY 4:1
    Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
HOW CAN YOU DEPART FROM THE FAITH IF YOU WERE NOT SAVED? ONLY PEOPLE WHO WERE ONCE SAVED CAN DEPART FROM THE FAITH!

Now i'm sure you could say God wasn't talking To Christians in the verses above. There are plenty of other verses  where God or Jesus tells us we must "Abide in God and keep his commandments".


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## speedcop

isnt that why there will be a judgment. not to judge the wicked and unsaved because their fate is sealed at death or the rapture. The saved will be judged according to their works.  Christ knows we are going to sin. Some will try harder than others not to sin. I think of the part where some will have more stars in their crown than others.

But, for someone to advocate that you dont have to be good to go to heaven seems to shift into reverse what the gosple is all about IMHO. Seems like trying to follow God's commandments as opposed to just taking it for granted and not progressing through study and prayer would reap a grander reward. I hope this young lady realizes where this might put here on the scale to heaven if in fact she's serious.

Saw a church sign today that says " mercy and goodness are inseparable".  Keep it up guys, I love your discussions.


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Looking over the posts I would say most are saying that, not just some....I don't know what she said after the initial statement that got your attention.Ive taught teens and adults and there's times you need to make a blunt statement to get folks minds to working.
> What she said is true, but it needs to be explained .



She made the statement because she heard a teenager say:  "I'm a Christian, I'm not suppose to be living like people who never thing of Jesus as their Lord."


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## Ronnie T

speedcop said:


> isnt that why there will be a judgment. not to judge the wicked and unsaved because their fate is sealed at death or the rapture. The saved will be judged according to their works.  Christ knows we are going to sin. Some will try harder than others not to sin. I think of the part where some will have more stars in their crown than others.
> 
> But, for someone to advocate that you dont have to be good to go to heaven seems to shift into reverse what the gosple is all about IMHO. Seems like trying to follow God's commandments as opposed to just taking it for granted and not progressing through study and prayer would reap a grander reward. I hope this young lady realizes where this might put here on the scale to heaven if in fact she's serious.
> 
> Saw a church sign today that says " mercy and goodness are inseparable".  Keep it up guys, I love your discussions.



Well thank you very much.
Someone who can look at a subject and discuss it without trying to minister church doctrine!!!!!
By the way, she was totally serious.

Thanks.


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Looking over the posts I would say most are saying that, not just some....I don't know what she said after the initial statement that got your attention.Ive taught teens and adults and there's times you need to make a blunt statement to get folks minds to working.
> What she said is true, but it needs to be explained .



1John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> 1John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.



Amazing how God works! He gave me a verse for the day last night. I posted it first and came here, we're in the same chapter.

lets look at v9

 Verse 9. Whosever is born of God doth not commit sin;

The blood of Christ cleanses all sin, once it is applied it cleanses the sin of yesterday and tomorrow.Those that are born again, are born into the kingdom. This is why I say my judgement came at calvary. I don't believe the final judgement puts me in front of God to explain my works here, he knows them already.What I have read into the word is the final judgement is nothing more than a seperation of the sheep and the goats.

None of us can live this life here on Earth and not sin.
Romans 3:23-24
23.For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24.Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The teenager should have been explained what living bad after salvation gets you...Chastisement!


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## fish hawk

Ronnie T said:


> So are some of you saying that the young lady is correct in proclaiming to the young people of the church her husbands serves that "you don't have to be good!"  ?



So what constitutes being good?I dont think I could ever be good enough to earn my way to heaven....thanks to Jesus I dont have to,earn that is.....Don't Muslims have a good and a bad scale???


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## Artfuldodger

I found this on 1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin - This passage must either mean that they who are born of God, that is, who are true Christians, do not sin habitually and characteristically, or that everyone who is a true Christian is absolutely perfect, and never commits any sin. If it can be used as referring to the doctrine of absolute perfection at all, it proves, not that Christians may be perfect, or that a "portion" of them are, but that all are. But who can maintain this? Who can believe that John meant to affirm this? Nothing can be clearer than that the passage has not this meaning, and that John did not teach a doctrine so contrary to the current strain of the Scriptures, and to fact; and if he did not teach this, then in this whole passage he refers to those who are habitually and characteristically righteous.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Amazing how God works! He gave me a verse for the day last night. I posted it first and came here, we're in the same chapter.
> 
> lets look at v9
> 
> Verse 9. Whosever is born of God doth not commit sin;
> 
> The blood of Christ cleanses all sin, once it is applied it cleanses the sin of yesterday and tomorrow.Those that are born again, are born into the kingdom. This is why I say my judgement came at calvary. I don't believe the final judgement puts me in front of God to explain my works here, he knows them already.What I have read into the word is the final judgement is nothing more than a seperation of the sheep and the goats.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Does this mean since Jesus died for our sins and our sins are forgivin that we can go on sinning without even trying not to? We can lie, steal, and cheat and ask for forgiveness later. There  isn't anything a Christian can do to put themselfs in danger of He11?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Does this mean since Jesus died for our sins and our sins are forgivin that we can go on sinning without even trying not to? We can lie, steal, and cheat and ask for forgiveness later. There  isn't anything a Christian can do to put themselfs in danger of He11?



If you can stand the chastising...which you can't. God keeps us in line as any Good Shepherd would.He knows what it takes for each one of us.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> If you can stand the chastising...which you can't. God keeps us in line as any Good Shepherd would.He knows what it takes for each one of us.


I agree our relationship with God is personal and different from each person. God knows what's in our hearts and who is trying to live right. It might be easier for one person than the next not to do a certain sin. Not everyone is an A+ non-sinner. This brings up the term "Accidental Sinning" verses sinning on purpose. That could really be a gray area.


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## gtparts

Ronnie T said:


> Yeah I know what you mean.
> But her statement leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
> We certainly should never consider ourselves good, but when a person says, "I don't have to be good to go to heaven" something got missed in the discipleship class.



I hope that she just made a poor choice of words in expressing herself. Often, there is a disparity in the truth and our understanding of that truth. And sometimes, we just get it wrong... or "speak" before we think. 

I would say this. Scripture clearly points to those who love God, doing good deeds.

*Ephesians 2:10*

New Living Translation (NLT)

 <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.


This reads very nearly the same in most translations. It could be said that God regards everything we do according to His will. He alone reserves the right to determine what is good and what is not.

At creation, God pronounced it "good" and after His crowning creation, mankind, He declared it "very good". Man and, indeed, his heart were good. Then, the Fall......
When we are saved, God gives us back a "good" heart and the desire to operate from that heart. Since salvation is totally the work of God, it is complete. Good works are not a necessity for salvation (so, technically, she is correct), but they (good works) are the natural and expected result, the motivated response, to being saved. 




Artfuldodger said:


> It sounds like Jesus is saying he isn't God. If Jesus isn't good, then is he saying he isn't perfect? In this same story he tells the man he must follow God's commandments and get rid of his worldly goods, if he wants to go to Heaven.
> By what he told this man, there is more to getting to Heaven than being saved. There is something the man must do himself.
> • Opening, Mark 10:17: Jesus was leaving on a trip when a rich young man came running up to Him asking how he could get to heaven.
> 
> • Middle, Mark 10:18-21: Jesus had a conversation with the young man telling him to obey the commandments to reach heaven. Jesus loves the man offers the young man a chance to follow Him, and he rejects Jesus offer.
> 
> • Closing, Mark 10:22: As a rich person, he was unable to give up material goods for spiritual goods to attain heaven.
> 
> Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/282550



I guess one could come away with that line of thinking. I find it more likely that Jesus is contrasting the efforts of man with the workings of God through man. The young aristocrat thought highly of his own efforts, yet he knew deep down inside that he was missing something. Christ showed him that his heart treasured his accumulated wealth above gaining eternal life... or helping relieve the plight of others. God is more concerned with who we are than in what we do. If we are the persons He created us to be, we will do the things He created for us to do.



RBM said:


> I don't call once saved always saved "modern-day" teaching. It has always been this way for many Christians. So its "old-day" teaching. My belief is Christ died once for all folk as the perfect sacrifice. He does not need to die more than once. We die once with Christ, buried in water, and raised to new life in like manner of Christ's example. So once saved always saved in like manner. If a person who "claims" to be saved goes so far away from Christ then they need to take a long hard look at "if" they were saved to begin with. There are times we stray and do need to repent but we know we need to repent through the "pulling" of Christ and the Spirit of God (the Comforter) on our hearts. Even scripture calls this backsliding. It is not up to us to determine the salvation of someone else, only our own salvation. We are not saved by emotions but by Christ who "changes" the heart and spirit at the age of accountability when we know the need for Christ. As a personal experience, only God and the person knows the transformation of heart and spirit. Are we going to say, "I was saved yesterday but not today?" God forbid. How many times did Christ die and rise from the dead? I can bring up the scripture to reinforce once saved always saved.
> 
> Psalms 103:10-12
> John 14:1-4
> John 6:37
> John 10:28
> Romans 5:8-9
> Romans 8:16,17,23
> Romans 8:28-39
> Ephesians 1:13, 4:30
> Philippians 1:6
> 2 Timothy 1:12
> 1 John 3:14, 5:12



A great study on this is found in Charles F. Stanley's  Life Principles Study Series, "Understanding Eternal Security". As he points out, there are at least two reasons why some doubt eternal security.

#1 We continue to sin after we are saved and many Christians have a difficult time understanding the difference between a sin nature and sinful acts.
#2 Certain passages of Scripture seem to say on the surface that a person can "lose" his salvation.

Stanley does a scholarly job of explaining and debunking the ignorance around this subject.



Artfuldodger said:


> The key is the son chose to return as Ronnie pointed out. Of course the father still loved him. What father wouldn't? No one can snatch you from God's hands but you can yourself. Your free will doesn't vanish when you get saved. Once saved always saved must go hand in hand with election.
> I don't think we can say , well that person was never saved.
> Go over to the triple A, atheist & others forum and ask some of the former Christians if they were once saved.



You seem to have missed a key point in the story. A son is a son always; when he is at home, he is part of the family; when he goes his separate way, he is still part of the family; when he returns, contrite and humble, he is still family. So it is with God's family, those whom He has adopted. In the first century Roman Empire, if a person was adopted, by Roman law he or she received all the rights and privileges as any natural born heir. The one making the adoption could not rescind his own decision. Adoptions were not extremely common (more frequently, the one adopting had no living, natural born heir) because of the permanence of the new relationship.


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## gtparts

Artfuldodger said:


> I found this on 1 John 3:9
> Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin - This passage must either mean that they who are born of God, that is, who are true Christians, do not sin habitually and characteristically, or that everyone who is a true Christian is absolutely perfect, and never commits any sin. If it can be used as referring to the doctrine of absolute perfection at all, it proves, not that Christians may be perfect, or that a "portion" of them are, but that all are. But who can maintain this? Who can believe that John meant to affirm this? Nothing can be clearer than that the passage has not this meaning, and that John did not teach a doctrine so contrary to the current strain of the Scriptures, and to fact; and if he did not teach this, then in this whole passage he refers to those who are habitually and characteristically righteous.



There is another option. It could be that when John wrote down these thoughts, inspired by God, he was giving God's perspective, where the saved are viewed (by Him) as under the blood of Christ, perfect and sinless. If Christ did not die taking on all our sin punishment on the cross, then who can stand before God for the sins that were not covered? It is also apparent, as you wrote, that no one can "maintain" perfection. Perfection cannot be acquired in any way except by grace; we cannot earn it, nor could we maintain it. Thankfully, God can and does.


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## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> So are some of you saying that the young lady is correct in proclaiming to the young people of the church her husbands serves that "you don't have to be good!"  ?



What is your definition of "good?"

And I ask you again....



rjcruiser said:


> So I ask, the thief on the cross....Was he a good person?









Ronnie T said:


> Well thank you very much.
> Someone who can look at a subject and discuss it without trying to minister church doctrine!!!!!



And we wonder why our churches are full of weak minded spiritual babes.  They've never been taught doctrine...and when it comes up...they run the other way.


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## Ronnie T

1John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

 *Make sure no one deceives you.  There will always be new ways of thinking.  Make sure no one deceives you!  People who will want it to say what it doesn't day.  Make sure no one deceives you?  People who will not like the way it's worded.  Make sure no one deceives you?

the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

"The one who practices, the one who lives in, the one who is comfortable, the one who never repents of it, the one who never turns from it.


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## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> 1John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."
> 
> *Make sure no one deceives you.  There will always be new ways of thinking.  Make sure no one deceives you!  People who will want it to say what it doesn't day.  Make sure no one deceives you?  People who will not like the way it's worded.  Make sure no one deceives you?
> 
> the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
> 
> "The one who practices, the one who lives in, the one who is comfortable, the one who never repents of it, the one who never turns from it.




I agree with your above post....if you are saved, you will bear the fruit of your Heavenly Father.

But...do you have to have that fruit to be saved?


I think you've got the order a little mixed up RonnieT.  Sanctification comes after Salvation...not before.

So I ask you again...

Was the thief on the cross a good person?


----------



## speedcop

obviously the thief on the cross was not a good person....... up to the point where Christ forgave him. Then his sins were blotted out from God's eyes. How many will have the opportunity to be next to Christ and recieve salvation and forgiveness in their last dying moments. He was like a new born baby entering the kingdom. 

We, on the other hand given this great gift of salvation and Christ interceeding for our sins daily must continue to try to climb higher to Christ through our walk in this life and setting the example that Christ laid out for us. At least thats the way I percieve it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Why didn't God just put John 3:16 in the Bible? He could have left out all the stuff about living right, commandments, & Christian requirements. If I can live however I want to and still get to Heaven, that's all i'm worried about. I have a fear of He11, i'm not worried about various rewards, I just want to sneak in through the gate. This sure is a relief off my mind. 
I know I should do my best to follow Jesus' teachings, but just to get a few extra perks, i'm glad I can be  luke warm Christian.


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## rjcruiser

speedcop said:


> obviously the thief on the cross was not a good person.......



So, based on that example, you don't have to be a "good person" to be saved.



Artfuldodger said:


> i'm glad I can be  luke warm Christian.



Hmmm...just ask the Laodiceans.


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## pstrahin

Yes.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> So, based on that example, you don't have to be a "good person" to be saved.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm...just ask the Laodiceans.



I agree, I don't think the Laodiceans will make it to Heaven.
I think faith without works is not going to work out for some people and I think it's more than rewards as in punishment.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree, I don't think the Laodiceans will make it to Heaven.
> I think faith without works is not going to work out for some people and I think it's more than rewards as in punishment.



But...the problem with your last line...is that the thief on the cross had no good works.  Just a "deathbed" conversion.  Does that mean he wasn't saved?

How does that reasoning and the rest of scripture apply to our own lives?


After all, either you believe in a works based salvation or you believe in a grace based salvation.  Grace+Works just doesn't work...the two are incompatible when it comes to explaining salvation.


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## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> 1John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."
> 
> *Make sure no one deceives you.  There will always be new ways of thinking.  Make sure no one deceives you!  People who will want it to say what it doesn't day.  Make sure no one deceives you?  People who will not like the way it's worded.  Make sure no one deceives you?
> 
> the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
> 
> "The one who practices, the one who lives in, the one who is comfortable, the one who never repents of it, the one who never turns from it.



Make sure no one deceives you.
Some will bring up the thief on the cross.  Make sure no one deceives you.  What I write is for you, not for the thief.  Make sure no one deceives you.  There's a million unanswerable questions concerning the thief.  Make sure no one deceives you.
You are not the thief.  Make sure no one deceives you.
"the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning."


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## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> Make sure no one deceives you.
> Some will bring up the thief on the cross.  Make sure no one deceives you.  What I write is for you, not for the thief.  Make sure no one deceives you.  There's a million unanswerable questions concerning the thief.  Make sure no one deceives you.
> You are not the thief.  Make sure no one deceives you.
> "the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning."




How is bringing up the thief on the cross being deceitful?


Are we not to search the scriptures like the Bereans in Acts 17:11?


How do we keep from being deceived?


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## Ronnie T

1John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

*If these verses are too difficult, bring another issue into the equation.  Use the thief to prove that these words, and all the others words of the Gospel don't actually mean what they say.
That cannot mean what they say if the thief................

Before His death, Jesus had a word for the thief.  After Jesus' death and resurrection, Jesus had a word for us.... The Gospel.
Do not be deceived.


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> Before His death, Jesus had a word for the thief.  After Jesus' death and resurrection, Jesus had a word for us.... The Gospel.
> Do not be deceived.



Are you saying that the gospel/how one gains eternal life changed from one way before Christ's death to something different after His death/resurection?

I thought that the book of Hebrews solved that one for us.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Are you saying that the gospel/how one gains eternal life changed from one way before Christ's death to something different after His death/resurection?
> 
> I thought that the book of Hebrews solved that one for us.



Does the writer of Hebrews nullify the writings of IJohn?

1John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."


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## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> Does the writer of Hebrews nullify the writings of IJohn?
> 
> 1John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."



No.  Rather, it clarifies I John.  And so does the thief on the cross.

Scripture interprets scripture.

However, in your case (and possibly in the case of the youth minister's wife), when you focus on just one or two verses, you can twist scripture to say whatever you want.


Why do you dance around the question I asked?  Do you not believe that the thief is in Heaven today?  Do you not believe that there can be death bed conversions?


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## Artfuldodger

The thief is in Heaven because he was saved and then died. I don't think he had much time to do much of any kind of living a righteous or sinful life after he was saved. What you do before you are saved doesn't count against you. What you do afterwards does. 
If you are saved and can do what you want, what will blasphemy against the Holy Spirit get you? It's got to be one way or the other.


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## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> The thief is in Heaven because he was saved and then died. I don't think he had much time to do much of any kind of living a righteous or sinful life after he was saved. What you do before you are saved doesn't count against you.



Right.  So therefore, the answer to the OP is no, you don't have to be "good" to be saved.



			
				Artfuldodger said:
			
		

> What you do afterwards does.
> If you are saved and can do what you want, what will blasphemy against the Holy Spirit get you? It's got to be one way or the other.



Correct again.

If you are truly saved, you won't do what you want, but will do what God wants.  And when you do sin, you'll repent.  After all, like RonnieT has posted numerous times, the righteous will act like it.

Those works will not guarantee salvation, but rather, they are evidence of it.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> If you are saved and can do what you want, what will blasphemy against the Holy Spirit get you? It's got to be one way or the other.



This depends on what you consider blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to be...I've studied it pretty deep and my conclusion is that to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to deny the calling to salvation..when beckoned.
 Therefore if you are already saved you can't commit blasphemy because you have accepted the Holy Spirit and not denied.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> This depends on what you consider blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to be...I've studied it pretty deep and my conclusion is that to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to deny the calling to salvation..when beckoned.
> Therefore if you are already saved you can't commit blasphemy because you have accepted the Holy Spirit and not denied.



At least you admit someone has a choice to accept Jesus or not.
I've had a coworker witness to me and others in our shop and I could feel the power of the Holy Spirit like he wanted to electrify me, but I didn't let him do it. Since i'm already saved , hopefully that didn't count as to what you are talking about.


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## barryl

*Law*



hobbs27 said:


> This depends on what you consider blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to be...I've studied it pretty deep and my conclusion is that to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to deny the calling to salvation..when beckoned.
> Therefore if you are already saved you can't commit blasphemy because you have accepted the Holy Spirit and not denied.


According to my Bible, blaspheming the Holy Ghost is in Mark 3 29-30 Come on people, get out from under the LAW !!!


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> At least you admit someone has a choice to accept Jesus or not.
> I've had a coworker witness to me and others in our shop and I could feel the power of the Holy Spirit like he wanted to electrify me, but I didn't let him do it. Since i'm already saved , hopefully that didn't count as to what you are talking about.



What you felt was within you, not your co-worker.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> What you felt was within you, not your co-worker.



Exactly, but I didn't allow him to fully compell me. I guess I felt it would be too embarassing if I got up and started acting how i was beginning to feel. If I had been in Church that would have been different.


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## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> Right.  So therefore, the answer to the OP is no, you don't have to be "good" to be saved.
> QUOTE]
> 
> You are correct, you got me on a technicality. The same would be true for a 15 year old who accepted Jesus at Church and died on his way out the door. He didn't have time to be good or bad.


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## thedeacon

Of course you have to be good to be a Christian.

Not according to the standards of man. 
They are to strict.

You must be good according to the standards 
set by God.

You don't have to be good to become a Christian.
Christianity REQUIRES repentance, that means
you leave the evil and embrace the good.

You can be bad, accept Christ and be good just
a mille second later.

We can never assume our definetions of words
are the same as Gods.

Just my opinion, God bless


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## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> No.  Rather, it clarifies I John.  And so does the thief on the cross.
> 
> Scripture interprets scripture.
> 
> However, in your case (and possibly in the case of the youth minister's wife), when you focus on just one or two verses, you can twist scripture to say whatever you want.
> 
> 
> Why do you dance around the question I asked?  Do you not believe that the thief is in Heaven today?  Do you not believe that there can be death bed conversions?



I hope you don't think I'm twisting scripture simply because I'd like to stick with one thing at the time.
What John wrote in his first letter didn't reference the thief and it has absolutely nothing to do with the thief.

I might be wrong, but I don't believe the thief on the cross was ever mentioned again after Jesus was buried.
So I'd say he isn't germane.
But he is a great diversion.
But he can also be used deceptively.

1John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil;

*Personally, I believe the word "practices" is a key word here.  No one loses salvation through a sin.  
But the one who "practices" sin is not walking in the light.


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## grizlbr

Ronnie T said:


> Recently the young wife of a youth minister told me that "a person doesn't have to be good to go to heaven".
> 
> Is that really a true statement?


 Yes! with a name : grizlbr?  Think Im sweet and cuddly? But you will see me in heaven! I know Jesus. I think I just passed the first requirement!  Claim Jesus now and he will claim you when you get there: Heaven! Sounds too easy. I knew someone So mean: he took wife's tires off her car to prevent her driving to church. He was an usher at the end of the story.


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## Ronnie T

grizlbr said:


> Yes! with a name : grizlbr?  Think Im sweet and cuddly? But you will see me in heaven! I know Jesus. I think I just passed the first requirement!  Claim Jesus now and he will claim you when you get there: Heaven! Sounds too easy. I knew someone So mean: he took wife's tires off her car to prevent her driving to church. He was an usher at the end of the story.



I'll bet he became a "good" usher.
But he shouldn't have took his wife's tires.


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## Kawaliga

Ronnie T, How many people do you know that don't sin on a pretty regular basis after they are saved, and some of the same sins over and over at that. A few examples are: gossip, thinking lustful thoughts about women, pride, and oh by the way, a little white lie now and then. If you say that after you are saved, and you continue to sin you are of the devil, then there are a lot of us in SW Georgia that are going to he11. This thing can get pretty complicated and confusing if you are really honest with yourself.


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## Ronnie T

Kawaliga said:


> Ronnie T, How many people do you know that don't sin on a pretty regular basis after they are saved, and some of the same sins over and over at that. A few examples are: gossip, thinking lustful thoughts about women, pride, and oh by the way, a little white lie now and then. If you say that after you are saved, and you continue to sin you are of the devil, then there are a lot of us in SW Georgia that are going to he11. This thing can get pretty complicated and confusing if you are really honest with yourself.



You pegged me pretty well.  Thankfully, sin ain't gonna keep me away from my lord.
Being "good" isn't going to get you or myself into heaven.
But that doesn't mean it's proper to tell someone "you don't have to be good to go to heaven".


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## Ronnie T

I was just thinking.....  I wonder if any of the inspired New Testament writers ever told a person to "now that you've been saved, go on with your life, you don't have to be good"?


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## formula1

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> I was just thinking.....  I wonder if any of the inspired New Testament writers ever told a person to "now that you've been saved, go on with your life, you don't have to be good"?



Probably didn't have to, because the Gift of Salvation was so wonderful to the hearers, service came naturally out of Love.  This is the same as it should be today, yet for many Satan has deceived us into thinking that the Power of God is weak in overcoming the sinful nature. Many have believed a lie and walk in darkness! Jesus warned us to be careful! I am challenged!

Luke 11 
33  “No one after lighting a lamp puts it in a cellar or under a basket, but on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light. 34 Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eye is healthy, your whole body is full of light, but when it is bad, your body is full of darkness. 35  Therefore be careful lest the light in you be darkness.

Ephesians 5:11
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

1 John 1:6
If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.


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## Artfuldodger

formula1 said:


> Probably didn't have to, because the Gift of Salvation was so wonderful to the hearers, service came naturally out of Love.  This is the same as it should be today, yet for many Satan has deceived us into thinking that the Power of God is weak in overcoming the sinful nature. Many have believed a lie and walk in darkness! Jesus warned us to be careful! I am challenged!
> 
> Luke 11
> 33  “No one after lighting a lamp puts it in a cellar or under a basket, but on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light. 34 Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eye is healthy, your whole body is full of light, but when it is bad, your body is full of darkness. 35  Therefore be careful lest the light in you be darkness.



You are telling a new Christian he has the power of the Holy Spirit so he'll not have to worry about living right anymore. Then you offer him a verse where Jesus is telling him to "be careful".


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## formula1

Artfuldodger said:


> You are telling a new Christian he has the power of the Holy Spirit so he'll not have to worry about living right anymore. Then you offer him a verse where Jesus is telling him to "be careful".



Yes (though I did not say he doesn't have to worry, you did) and Yes. And what is the contradiction???


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## Ronnie T

Kawaliga said:


> Ronnie T, How many people do you know that don't sin on a pretty regular basis after they are saved, and some of the same sins over and over at that. A few examples are: gossip, thinking lustful thoughts about women, pride, and oh by the way, a little white lie now and then. If you say that after you are saved, and you continue to sin you are of the devil, then there are a lot of us in SW Georgia that are going to he11. This thing can get pretty complicated and confusing if you are really honest with yourself.



After rethinking this during the night I'd like to revisit your questions.
I know plenty of Christians who do not sin on a regular basis.  I know lots of people who don't lie, not even a white lie.  And why shouldn't their lives be that way?  Why shouldn't they?  None of that means they deserve any credit for it.  It simply is an indication that they've truly been touched by the gracious blood of Jesus.

It changes a person.  Fruits of the Spirit.


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## thedeacon

Christ was GOOD we have to pattern our lives after his. Is there anyone that can't grasp even that.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Do you have to be good to go to heaven?



As good as God.


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## Artfuldodger

formula1 said:


> Probably didn't have to, because the Gift of Salvation was so wonderful to the hearers, service came naturally out of Love.  This is the same as it should be today, yet for many Satan has deceived us into thinking that the Power of God is weak in overcoming the sinful nature. Many have believed a lie and walk in darkness! Jesus warned us to be careful! I am challenged!QUOTE]
> 
> I just interpreted what you said wrong quoting  Luke 11.
> Above you did say Jesus warned us to be careful.


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## gtparts

formula1 said:


> Probably didn't have to, because the Gift of Salvation was so wonderful to the hearers, service came naturally out of Love.  This is the same as it should be today, yet for many Satan has deceived us into thinking that the Power of God is weak in overcoming the sinful nature. Many have believed a lie and walk in darkness! Jesus warned us to be careful! I am challenged!
> 
> Luke 11
> 33  “No one after lighting a lamp puts it in a cellar or under a basket, but on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light. 34 Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eye is healthy, your whole body is full of light, but when it is bad, your body is full of darkness. 35  Therefore be careful lest the light in you be darkness.
> 
> Ephesians 5:11
> Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
> 
> 1 John 1:6
> If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.





Artfuldodger said:


> You are telling a new Christian he has the power of the Holy Spirit so he'll not have to worry about living right anymore. Then you offer him a verse where Jesus is telling him to "be careful".





Ronnie T said:


> After rethinking this during the night I'd like to revisit your questions.
> I know plenty of Christians who do not sin on a regular basis.  I know lots of people who don't lie, not even a white lie.  And why shouldn't their lives be that way?  Why shouldn't they?  None of that means they deserve any credit for it.  It simply is an indication that they've truly been touched by the gracious blood of Jesus.
> 
> It changes a person.  Fruits of the Spirit.



Seems to me that we (a large number of Christians) think of the Holy Spirit as some kind of 'guardian angel' or talisman, to keep us on the straight and narrow. It is a though when we sin, we could blame the Holy Spirit for not doing His job. 

But, Scripture describes Him as the Parakletos, one called or sent to come along side to help, counsel, advise, and advocate. The context is that of the perfect asset to assist us in living a godly life. He does not rule over us, at least not in the sense that He mandates all our thought and behavior. Instead, we must avail ourselves of what He can and will do for us and others. He can be a moral compass, if we pay Him heed. He can be the comforter, if we allow Him to carry our burden. He can and does advocate for us when we are committed to dwell in God's will, but we stumble. He stands in the gap when we are under the assault from Satan and his crowd. He helps and advises us, if we ask. He doesn't force himself upon the believer, but willingly provides leadership when we admit we do not know the way and seek His direction. 

But, He is no more a genie in "our bottle" than the waffle I had for breakfast is. Not Santa Claus nor the Tooth Fairy. 

The point is, He can only do what we allow Him to do in our lives. When we choose to go it alone, we bear all the consequences that might result.


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## formula1

*Re:*



Artfuldodger said:


> I just interpreted what you said wrong quoting  Luke 11.
> Above you did say Jesus warned us to be careful.



Well, ,thanks for the opportunity to clear things up. There is no contradiction at least from my point of view.

Jesus did warn us to be careful.  Why?  Because we have a nature that is prone to choose wrongly (to hide our light), to gratify the desires of the flesh rather than listen to the Holy Spirit as a guide in our lives. After awhile, we get to believing we are doing OK, yet we are still refusing to submit our will to the Power of the Holy Spirit in us.  Eventually, this causes us to judge our own hearts as clean, yet still deceiving ourselves.  We know His will for the Holy Spirit has made it clear to us (by His Word and Spirit), but we willfully ignore it. That's when the light in us becomes darkness, as we fail to respond to the His light within.  

The Power of God through the Holy Spirit truly is an amazing force in helping us be overcomers in Christ. But if we don't guard our path, what can He do?

Psalm 119:9
How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to Your Word.

I hope this helps!!!


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## Ronnie T

Came across this today.

*New Life in Christ 
     If I had a car with the engine that was ready for the grave, I'd have a new engine put in. I'd take the car into a mechanic who would put it in for me. If when I got that car back, it ran just as poorly, I'd begin to wonder if the old really had been replaced or just cleaned up. It is not different with our new lives in Christ. 

         Christian Personal Ethics, C.F.H.Henry,Eerdmans,
         1957, pp. 383ff


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## Ronnie T

Another one.

James 1:22 

 I was hungry and you formed a humanities club and discussed my hunger.
I was imprisoned and you crept off quietly to your chapel and prayed for my release.
I was naked and in your mind you debated the morality of my appearance.
I was sick and you knelt and thanked God for your health.
I was homeless and you preached to me of the spiritual shelter of the love of God.
I was lonely and you left me alone to pray for me.
You seem so holy, so close to God.
But I'm still very hungry and lonely and cold.

We must hear again the words of James: 'But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only"" (James 1:22).


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Came across this today.
> 
> *New Life in Christ
> If I had a car with the engine that was ready for the grave, I'd have a new engine put in. I'd take the car into a mechanic who would put it in for me. If when I got that car back, it ran just as poorly, I'd begin to wonder if the old really had been replaced or just cleaned up. It is not different with our new lives in Christ.
> 
> Christian Personal Ethics, C.F.H.Henry,Eerdmans,
> 1957, pp. 383ff



I agree, as long as we evaluate things under our own hoods, and don't go around judging other cars.


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## mtnwoman

We are not suppose to continue in sin. Even though we do, sometimes. Jesus changed the way I think/thought about things. I was having so much fun, I was killing myself. I wasn't a mean kind of sinner, just a stupid kind of sinner.

I look at the Holy Spirit as sort of an 'umpire'...'do go here, don't go there, don't do this or that, don't say that, do say that'....I'm instantly convicted when I do something I shouldn't and I instantly ask for forgiveness. In my spirit, lives Jesus, in my soul lives me. I'm battling myself and my flesh, I'm not battling Jesus. When I am weak, He is strong....sometimes I turn a blind eye and sin anyway, knowing good and well......my goal is to become more and more like Christ everyday. It's really easier to be like Him than it is to suffer the consequences of being like me....I cause my ownself grief.


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> I agree, as long as we evaluate things under our own hoods, and don't go around judging other cars.



I always appreciate it when someone tells me my car's not sounding so good.  

I'm equally greatful when a good brother points out something in my life that I'm not doing such a good job at.


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> I always appreciate it when someone tells me my car's not sounding so good.
> 
> I'm equally greatful when a good brother points out something in my life that I'm not doing such a good job at.



My brother is just as inexperienced as I am, and would probably ignore his own rod knocking to point out my ticking valve  I'll take the advice of my Father.


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## Ronnie T

Then I'd appreciate him letting me know what that ticking noise is.

James 5:20
 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> As good as God.



We are not called Godians for a reason. We are Christians as we are to Try to be as Christ like as humanly possible.
One more thing to show the difference between God & Jesus. You might get close to being Christ like but you will never be God like.


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## Ronnie T

Do you have to be good to go to heaven?

It just came to me tonight.......

No? But the one going to heaven will have an inner desire to be good.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> You might get close to being Christ like but you will never be God like.



How close to being Christ like would one need to be in order to enter heaven? The righteousness required by God, only God can give. Only one who is equal to God can stand in the presence of God.(Psalm 24:3-5) (Matthew 17:5)


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## StriperAddict

Ronnie T said:


> Do you have to be good to go to heaven?
> 
> It just came to me tonight.......
> 
> No? But the one going to heaven will have an inner desire to be good.


 
Pardon me for thinking that's a given.  And worse yet I suppose...
  taking it for granted.


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Do you have to be good to go to heaven?
> 
> It just came to me tonight.......
> 
> No? But the one going to heaven will have an inner desire to be good.



An inspired revelation. Amen!


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## Ronnie T

StriperAddict said:


> Pardon me for thinking that's a given.  And worse yet I suppose...
> taking it for granted.



Obviously not by some of the previous comments.


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## speedcop

rjcruiser said:


> So, based on that example, you don't have to be a "good person" to be saved.
> 
> You either misunderstood the original question or misread it. The question was do you have to be a good person to go to heaven.
> 
> Of course you dont have to be a good person to be "saved". Thats what it's for. So based on your phrase I would agree with you


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