# A question for the believers that frequent here...



## bad0351 (Jul 24, 2011)

Is there anything that could happen in your life ....and I mean ANYTHING that may cause you to rethink your belief?
Something that could so shake the foundation of what you believe to be true that you could see yourself disavowing religion all together?

Hmmmmmmm.......I wonder


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## ted_BSR (Jul 24, 2011)

I think that any trial or tribulation would only reinforce my faith. There are already plenty of bad examples (false prophets) of believers out there. And there is plenty of terrible life stuff that happens to everyone. I don't hold my beliefs because it makes life easy or makes it go the way I want it to. I believe it because my heart and mind are convicted that it is the truth.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 24, 2011)

This thread makes me think of Job


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## CAL (Jul 24, 2011)

Me....,I would only be a fool to not believe in our Lord after the things I have seen and experienced that only God could cause to take place.


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## bad0351 (Jul 25, 2011)

CAL said:


> Me....,I would only be a fool to not believe in our Lord after the things I have seen and experienced that only God could cause to take place.



Could you elaborate on some of the things you think only a god could cause to take place?


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## Havana Dude (Jul 25, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> Is there anything that could happen in your life ....and I mean ANYTHING that may cause you to rethink your belief?
> Something that could so shake the foundation of what you believe to be true that you could see yourself disavowing religion all together?
> 
> Hmmmmmmm.......I wonder



Religion?????............perhaps. God????...............never.


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## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2011)

Most believers are too afraid of burning to question their beliefs.


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## VisionCasting (Jul 25, 2011)

God could show up in my office and tell me He isn't real.  That would make me think.


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## Huntinfool (Jul 25, 2011)

I've been through too much already that only served to point me toward God.

Have I lived through the worst possible stuff?  No.  I haven't.  But I promise you I've lived through periods in my life that were worse than most people ever experience.

The end result was/is that I'm more sure of my faith now than I was before.  Actually, I'm not even sure how real my faith was before.

If you're asking something to the effect of "if my kid got cancer and died", would I disavow God....I'm not sure how I would make it through that without him.


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## WTM45 (Jul 25, 2011)

If the ships from other worlds landed, and the lifeforms emerged and communicated with us, would folks THEN start to question all religious beliefs?


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 25, 2011)

Not Catholics. The Vatican said that they have acklowledged the possibility of ET life. They've begun hedging their bets.


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## dawg2 (Jul 25, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Most believers are too afraid of burning to question their beliefs.



Seriously?  That is one of the most ignorant posts I have read on here.  Talk about trolling.


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## dawg2 (Jul 25, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> If the ships from other worlds landed, and the lifeforms emerged and communicated with us, would folks THEN start to question all religious beliefs?



No.  Why would that cause a problem?


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## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> Seriously?  That is one of the most ignorant posts I have read on here.  Talk about trolling.



Seriously? Do you know how many times Pascals wager has been used on this forum?


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## JB0704 (Jul 25, 2011)

> Most believers are too afraid of burning to question their beliefs.





> That is one of the most ignorant posts I have read on here



Not sure I agree Dawg, I was raised in a system (independant Baptist) which likened questioning beliefs to blasphemy.  Additionally, I was taught as a child that doubting was evidence of a lack of faith, which led to condemnation.  This stifles a lot of intelectual "digging" for kids in such a scenario.  While it does appear there is some pot stirring involved, I have to think Atlas' statement is accurate.


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## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> No.  Why would that cause a problem?



I suppose Jesus died for their sins too...


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## pbradley (Jul 25, 2011)

2 Timothy 1:12
King James Version (KJV)

 12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.


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## TheBishop (Jul 25, 2011)

I wouldn't consider any one thing that cuased my agnostictism.  It was more a period of enlightenment that began somewhere in my early 20's and continues today.  I began to question everything.  Government, law, faith, purpose, ect.


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## bad0351 (Jul 25, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> God could show up in my office and tell me He isn't real.  That would make me think.



How would you know that it was god?


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## bad0351 (Jul 25, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> Seriously?  That is one of the most ignorant posts I have read on here.  Talk about trolling.



How is it you feel that was ignorant?
isn't that a true statement?
I find most believing folks I talk to get very nervous when you even bring up the subject in conversation.


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## ambush80 (Jul 25, 2011)

pbradley said:


> 2 Timothy 1:12
> King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.



That was a very exclusive introduction.


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## 1john4:4 (Jul 25, 2011)

Havana Dude said:


> Religion?????............perhaps. God????...............never.




Thats right.


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## CAL (Jul 25, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> Could you elaborate on some of the things you think only a god could cause to take place?



I most certainly could and would if people would understand as I do the things that I have seen and experienced.But I will not for the sake of not having people like yourself take my experiences apart and try to make something of them they are most definitely not.See,ya have to know the Lord to understand when he speaks and moves.If one doesn't know the Lord,that same one will never hear his voice nor see His results.


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## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2011)

CAL said:


> I most certainly could and would if people would understand as I do the things that I have seen and experienced.But I will not for the sake of not having people like yourself take my experiences apart and try to make something of them they are most definitely not.See,ya have to know the Lord to understand when he speaks and moves.If one doesn't know the Lord,that same one will never hear his voice nor see His results.



Doesn't it speak to the weakness of the experiences if they are only capable of convincing people that already believe? That is, an experience that can only be used to confirm a preconception?


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## JB0704 (Jul 25, 2011)

> Doesn't it speak to the weakness of the experiences if they are only capable of convincing people that already believe? That is, an experience that can only be used to confirm a preconception



....But, what if a person says "I saw God."  Shouldn't you, being an honest atheist, recognize the possibility of this being accurate because you do not know the truth of the matter and have no way of proving or disproving the statement aside from a prejudice against the existence of God (which remains within the realm of possibilities)?


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## Havana Dude (Jul 25, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Seriously? Do you know how many times Pascals wager has been used on this forum?



Can't you grasp that Pascals wager is just breaking it down into it's simplest, most basic form, so that one could understand............................or maybe not.
For the life of me I cannot understand why the OP would even ask such a question. Non-believers continually try and tear apart our beliefs, or break everything down into small pieces that they then try and disprove. 
Man!!!!, this is worse than the baiting threads. Ya'll can take a rest if ya want to, cause nothing will make me not believe.


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## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> ....But, what if a person says "I saw God."  Shouldn't you, being an honest atheist, recognize the possibility of this being accurate because you do not know the truth of the matter and have no way of proving or disproving the statement aside from a prejudice against the existence of God (which remains within the realm of possibilities)?



If I may answer your question with a comparable question...


....But, what if a person says "I saw a dinosaur running down my street."  Shouldn't you recognize the possibility of this being accurate because you do not know the truth of the matter and have no way of proving or disproving the statement aside from a prejudice against the existence of living dinosaurs (which remains within the realm of possibilities)?

or...

....But, what if a person says "I was abducted by aliens."  Shouldn't you recognize the possibility of this being accurate because you do not know the truth of the matter and have no way of proving or disproving the statement aside from a prejudice against the existence of aliens (which remains within the realm of possibilities)?


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## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2011)

Havana Dude said:


> Can't you grasp that Pascals wager is just breaking it down into it's simplest, most basic form, so that one could understand............................or maybe not.
> For the life of me I cannot understand why the OP would even ask such a question. Non-believers continually try and tear apart our beliefs, or break everything down into small pieces that they then try and disprove.
> Man!!!!, this is worse than the baiting threads. Ya'll can take a rest if ya want to, cause nothing will make me not believe.



The most common presentation of Pascals wager here is "If I'm wrong I've lost nothing, if you're wrong you'll burn.". Another way of putting it is, I'm not going to take a chance of eternal burning. It scares people into not questioning which is exactly why so many successful religions include something like the hot place. And I know from personal experience how powerful an influence it can have on a persons mind.


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## JB0704 (Jul 25, 2011)

> aside from a prejudice against the existence of living dinosaurs (which remains within the realm of possibilities)?



First, that is a pretty good response.   

But, dinosaurs are extinct and the evidence is overwhelming: fossil records, total lack of video evidence (much like bigfoot, somebody would have one on a trail cam by now), modern animals, and the scientific data which indicates dinosaurs would have difficulty surviving the modern climate (at least I think I read that somewhere).  

God is a different matter altogether because it is beyond the natural, or physical, and one would not expect to see such physical evidence.  However, my logic indicates the possibility of God's existence, and logic as well as evidence indicates dinosaurs must be extinct.


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## WTM45 (Jul 25, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> No.  Why would that cause a problem?



It would seem quite strange that any omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent intelligent designer would not have at least given notice of another part of their creation work even if it was only a simple dream of a prophet or an apostle.

I'd think such a finding would shake every religious belief known to mankind right to its very core.


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## JB0704 (Jul 25, 2011)

> But, what if a person says "I was abducted by aliens." Shouldn't you recognize the possibility of this being accurate because you do not know the truth of the matter and have no way of proving or disproving the statement aside from a prejudice against the existence of aliens (which remains within the realm of possibilities)?



Much better example than dinosaurs.  Not sure.  I saw a movie once where aliens took some logger.  It could happen, I guess...


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## stringmusic (Jul 25, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> It would seem quite strange that any omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent intelligent designer would not have at least given notice of another part of their creation work even if it was only a simple dream of a prophet or an apostle.


And because there is not a "notice" given, that means what?



> I'd think such a finding would shake every religious belief known to mankind right to its very core.



why?


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## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> First, that is a pretty good response.
> 
> But, dinosaurs are extinct and the evidence is overwhelming: fossil records, total lack of video evidence (much like bigfoot, somebody would have one on a trail cam by now), modern animals, and the scientific data which indicates dinosaurs would have difficulty surviving the modern climate (at least I think I read that somewhere).
> 
> God is a different matter altogether because it is beyond the natural, or physical, and one would not expect to see such physical evidence.  However, my logic indicates the possibility of God's existence, and logic as well as evidence indicates dinosaurs must be extinct.



I think you missed the point. There is no verifiable evidence of the existence of any God. All we have is claims of personal experience. Claims that are so unconvincing that we are told that they won't even be shared with us because it is already known they would be rejected. If that is all it takes to convince you of something that has never been shown to exist at any point in history then why would you be skeptical of an unverified claim to have seen an animal that we know for sure has existed? You're lowering the bar for the God claim and my question is, why is that necessary?


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## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Much better example than dinosaurs.  Not sure.  I saw a movie once where aliens took some logger.  It could happen, I guess...



Sure. It could happen just like there could be a god. But what would it take to convince you? If they told you "I was abducted by aliens and I would tell you more details about my experience but I won't bother because I know you won't believe me.", what would you think?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 25, 2011)

Havana Dude said:


> Can't you grasp that Pascals wager is just breaking it down into it's simplest, most basic form, so that one could understand............................or maybe not.
> For the life of me I cannot understand why the OP would even ask such a question. Non-believers continually try and tear apart our beliefs, or break everything down into small pieces that they then try and disprove.
> Man!!!!, this is worse than the baiting threads. Ya'll can take a rest if ya want to, cause nothing will make me not believe.


  It is part of their Identity Crisis. A simple and true Atheist doesn't give a flip about what you believe and lives their life doing their own thing without regard to your belief system. Now the politically motivated Marxism Atheist are a different story. That is a movement that has been defeated several times, yet followers continue to pick up the torch and assail Christianity in their efforts to corral all thinkers into one neat robotic mold. It isn't anything a little education wouldn't cure, but most are too stubborn or lazy to go to the effort.


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## WTM45 (Jul 25, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> And because there is not a "notice" given, that means what?



Someone forgot?  
Someone thought it was not important enough for us to know?  Maybe someone did not know what was going on with another intelligent designer in another universe?

Evidence of intelligent life outside our world would simply crush current monotheistic belief systems.

Another scenerio.  If the world as we know it was demolished by nuclear war, or by a catastrophic cosmic event, and only a few humans survived in a remote area (you being one) would you then say "Pooh!" on the dreams and visions of the prophets John and Isiah?

It does not require anything that dramatic for one to lose faith in a belief system.  It is proven every day, as many good, well meaning people have the rug yanked out from under them in their lives and their thoughts move to questioning and disbelief.  Some find they can hang on to their beliefs, others simply see their own reality as being sufficient.


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## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> It would seem quite strange that any omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent intelligent designer would not have at least given notice of another part of their creation work even if it was only a simple dream of a prophet or an apostle.
> 
> I'd think such a finding would shake every religious belief known to mankind right to its very core.



It probably would for some. Maybe it would cause them to lose their religion. Others would find a way to adapt their religious views. In essence, any religion that couldn't adapt to the new paradigm of extraterrestrial life would die and one that could would survive. Religion has and will continue to evolve.


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## JB0704 (Jul 25, 2011)

> You're lowering the bar for the God claim and my question is, why is that necessary?



I am only lowering it to the point that it is possible somebody has seen God.  I get your point about dinosaurs, aliens, etc.  

My point is that Individual prejudices and perception of evidence will determine whether or not we believe the claim, not the claim itself.

Examples:
1. I have never seen any physical or logical evidence of bigfoot, I will not believe a bigfoot claim.
2. I have never seen any physical or logical evidence of the tooth fairy (however I have lost many dollars pretending to be him), I will not believe a toothfairy claim.
3. I have never seen any physical evidence of aliens, but logic leads me to believe that aliens might exist, I will give a little more credit to an alien claim.
4. As far as God is concerned, see #3.

That's my only point. That if we recognize a (or lack of) possibility, one of those possibilities might be that the claim is correct.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 25, 2011)

robotic?? Like singing hyms and saying amen all at once?


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## WTM45 (Jul 25, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> It probably would for some. Maybe it would cause them to lose their religion. Others would find a way to adapt their religious views. In essence, any religion that couldn't adapt to the new paradigm of extraterrestrial life would die and one that could would survive. Religion has and will continue to evolve.



Nailed.

That's how belief systems have survived.  They modify and stretch to fit.


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## JB0704 (Jul 25, 2011)

> "I was abducted by aliens and I would tell you more details about my experience but I won't bother because I know you won't believe me.", what would you think?



I would tend to discredit the claim, much like you have.  But, there are additional circumstances involved.  Some folks don't want to be made fun of.  Some folks don't understand things well enough themselves to defend their position (even if correct).  Some folks see that the people listening would not be convinced, short of a talking donkey tied to a burning bush, and will not wast their time.


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## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I am only lowering it to the point that it is possible somebody has seen God.  I get your point about dinosaurs, aliens, etc.
> 
> My point is that Individual prejudices and perception of evidence will determine whether or not we believe the claim, not the claim itself.
> 
> ...



I appreciate your answer. Logic for me puts God into the same category as the tooth fairy. That is, those entities which are not known to exist, have never been known to exist, and for which no comparable entity has been known to exist. I also have the evidence that certain claims of the bible are false and logical contradictions in claims made about the Christian god that further persuades me that it isn't true. Doesn't mean a god couldn't exist. I'm open to the possibility that a god or a tooth fairy could exist. I could be convinced. But it would take a great deal more than what has so far been offered.

Bigfoot and aliens I put into a separate category and that is things that are comparable to other entities that are already known to exist (organic life forms), but have never themselves been proven to exist. I consider the possibility of their existence greater than the other category but still would need more than anecdotal stories to be persuaded.


"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."


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## JB0704 (Jul 25, 2011)

> Logic for me puts God into the same category as the tooth fairy



Fair enough.  We just viewed the same evidence and came to different logical conclusions, and I think that is an argument for a different post.  It happens.....


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 25, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I appreciate your answer. Logic for me puts God into the same category as the tooth fairy. That is, those entities which are not known to exist, have never been known to exist, and for which no comparable entity has been known to exist. I also have the evidence that certain claims of the bible are false and logical contradictions in claims made about the Christian god that further persuades me that it isn't true. Doesn't mean a god couldn't exist. I'm open to the possibility that a god or a tooth fairy could exist. I could be convinced. But it would take a great deal more than what has so far been offered.
> 
> Bigfoot and aliens I put into a separate category and that is things that are comparable to other entities that are already known to exist (organic life forms), but have never themselves been proven to exist. I consider the possibility of their existence greater than the other category but still would need more than anecdotal stories to be persuaded.
> 
> ...



I don't put the tooh fairy in the same bucket with a god. I am a father and I am pretty certain that I will be the one putting the cash under the pillow in the next few months... BUT if my parents and most of the people I have been aquanted with had continued lieing to me about the tooth fairy to this day, I would expect to be checking my daughter's pillow before she woke up. My point being, I am fairly certain EVERYONE loses the tale of the tooth fairy. Gods and religions are kept going by a lot of people.


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## pacecars (Jul 25, 2011)

To the original question: NO!


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## JFS (Jul 25, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I am a father and I am pretty certain that I will be the one putting the cash under the pillow in the next few months.



Maybe your Fairy Godmother would be a better analogy.


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## Michael F. Gray (Jul 25, 2011)

I've endured several battles with cancer, and listen to the physicians give me 3-6 months while saying there is nothing else they can do. [That was in 1987]. I believe trials will drive one into the loving arms of the Almighty, or away from him. Made my decision 1n 1976. If I wanted to turn back, what is there to turn too? No, I await his final summons where as said Job, I'll see him face to face. I encourage you to study Proverbs 29:1 ; before it's everlasting to late.


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## formula1 (Jul 25, 2011)

*Re:*

No! Only Christ has the words of life.


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## ted_BSR (Jul 25, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Most believers are too afraid of burning to question their beliefs.



That is a ridiculous generalization. Sometimes I think you are alright, and then you post garbage like that.


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## bullethead (Jul 25, 2011)

Originally Posted by atlashunter 
Most believers are too afraid of burning to question their beliefs.



ted_BSR said:


> That is a ridiculous generalization. Sometimes I think you are alright, and then you post garbage like that.



I have to admit that is exactly how I felt when I first started to question my beliefs. I'd get a thought in my head and quickly abandon it fearing what would happen if I went against everything I was taught for 20 years.


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## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I have to admit that is exactly how I felt when I first started to question my beliefs. I'd get a thought in my head and quickly abandon it fearing what would happen if I went against everything I was taught for 20 years.



I would question and be bothered by the claims the bible made that didn't make sense but I had a lingering fear that if I was wrong and died I might go to the bad place. Took me years to get over it. The strong reactions from the believers only shows they know deep down it is true. It's an "intelligently designed" feature of many religions.


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## bullethead (Jul 25, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I would question and be bothered by the claims the bible made that didn't make sense but I had a lingering fear that if I was wrong and died I might go to the bad place. Took me years to get over it. The strong reactions from the believers only shows they know deep down it is true. It's an "intelligently designed" feature of many religions.



Yessir! I can relate.


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## CAL (Jul 25, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I would question and be bothered by the claims the bible made that didn't make sense but I had a lingering fear that if I was wrong and died I might go to the bad place. Took me years to get over it. The strong reactions from the believers only shows they know deep down it is true. It's an "intelligently designed" feature of many religions.



All jokes aside gentlemen,I wished I could look any non believer in their eyes and tell them some things I have seen and have happened to me.I really think I could convince some and maybe all that there is a Holy Spirit and how real it has been in my life and my families life.Looking in a persons eyes to me is telling what you have to say with facial expressions are quite different from typing on one of these.I have always felt I could tell whether a person was telling the truth or not too by looking.I do consider all of us friends with just different definitions an opinions of Christianity.The Bible speaks of more than one Heaven,I want to be there and I want all my friends there too.Does this make sense to anyone?


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## bullethead (Jul 26, 2011)

Sure it makes sense Cal. But Christians are not the only ones to have gone through tough times, have had miraculous things happen, been cured of a disease or many similar experiences. I don't doubt you had those things happen to you but it is not exclusive to Christianity. What drives many of us away is the constant push, the constant "owe everything good to God" mindset, the constant " if I am wrong I have lost nothing" slogan, the constant "if ya can't dis-prove it then it must be true" attitude that believers always cram down others throats. At the same time they overlook and dismiss exact experiences by others religious followers because they are not of the same faith. 
I can accept that there are many different types of religions and faiths. I understand that the way they worship is what gets them through life. I understand it is human nature to want to share these things with others. They should stick to sharing with like minded individuals within the same religion. Because once somebody devout in one religion gets to talking to someone devout in another religion the beautiful experiences of how their God has touched them turns into a "mine is better than yours" debate, each side dismissing each others God (for the same reasons we do) and then the peace on love teachings turn into hatred.
Cal you have experienced what YOU need out of religion. That is great. Others simply get that satisfaction somewhere else.


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## VisionCasting (Jul 26, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> God could show up in my office and tell me He isn't real.  That would make me think.





bad0351 said:


> How would you know that it was god?



Sorry, it was a bad attempt at humor.  

Scripture is clear on this - when God next shows up, it'll be undeniable that it's Him.  I am not worried that I will fail to recognize Him.  If were blind, I am still not worried that I would fail to recognize Him.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 26, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> Is there anything that could happen in your life ....and I mean ANYTHING that may cause you to rethink your belief?
> Something that could so shake the foundation of what you believe to be true that you could see yourself disavowing religion all together?
> 
> Hmmmmmmm.......I wonder




I've been a christian since I was like 14, but about 15 years ago I saw a show on PBS that discussed early christianity that really rocked me.   It was the first time I have ever heard of these "other gospels".    I was shaken by this for not-a-few days, until I learned that these "other gospels" were mainly Gnostic in origin but also 2nd century of later.     If I had not learned that most biblical scholars dated these gospels outside of the 1st century I would have (maybe) really questioned what I believed.  

Bandy


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## atlashunter (Jul 26, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I've been a christian since I was like 14, but about 15 years ago I saw a show on PBS that discussed early christianity that really rocked me.   It was the first time I have ever heard of these "other gospels".    I was shaken by this for not-a-few days, until I learned that these "other gospels" were mainly Gnostic in origin but also 2nd century of later.     If I had not learned that most biblical scholars dated these gospels outside of the 1st century I would have (maybe) really questioned what I believed.
> 
> Bandy



Do you reject everything that came after the 1st century? How do you know the Gnostics were wrong?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 26, 2011)

Yes.   I reject 2nd century just as I would 21st century.  Anything outside of the lifetimes of first-hand authors should be considered suspect.


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## atlashunter (Jul 26, 2011)

CAL said:


> All jokes aside gentlemen,I wished I could look any non believer in their eyes and tell them some things I have seen and have happened to me.I really think I could convince some and maybe all that there is a Holy Spirit and how real it has been in my life and my families life.Looking in a persons eyes to me is telling what you have to say with facial expressions are quite different from typing on one of these.I have always felt I could tell whether a person was telling the truth or not too by looking.I do consider all of us friends with just different definitions an opinions of Christianity.The Bible speaks of more than one Heaven,I want to be there and I want all my friends there too.Does this make sense to anyone?



I don't doubt your sincerity. But personal experiences just aren't enough to persuade me. I too have personal experiences from when I was a Christian that I could tell you about.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I don't doubt your sincerity. But personal experiences just aren't enough to persuade me. I too have personal experiences from when I was a Christian that I could tell you about.



let me guess......former catholic?


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## atlashunter (Jul 26, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Yes.   I reject 2nd century just as I would 21st century.  Anything outside of the lifetimes of first-hand authors should be considered suspect.



You might find this list of early christian writings with date ranges interesting.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/index.html

Also, what about additions that were made to the earlier texts long after they were originally written? Shouldn't those be discounted too?


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## atlashunter (Jul 26, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> let me guess......former catholic?



Assembly of God/Non-denominational


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You might find this list of early christian writings with date ranges interesting.
> 
> http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/index.html
> 
> Also, what about additions that were made to the earlier texts long after they were originally written? Shouldn't those be discounted too?



I've been to that website numerous times, and it states that most biblical scholars agree that the NT books were 1st century.   

Also, YES, if something was added later, I would not hold it in the same esteem that I would the former.


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## atlashunter (Jul 26, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I've been to that website numerous times, and it states that most biblical scholars agree that the NT books were 1st century.
> 
> Also, YES, if something was added later, I would not hold it in the same esteem that I would the former.



Well you've got the Gospel of John, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John, 1st and 2nd Timothy, Titus, 2nd Peter that are likely 2nd century. The point is, if you look at that list there are quite a few books from the NT that either could be or are confirmed to be 2nd century and you have other christian writings not included in the NT that are earlier.

Concerning the later editing that went on that is one of the challenges for textual critics. When you have manuscripts that say different things how do you know which is the original and which was altered? That said, there are parts of the New Testament that are known to have been later additions. For example, the story of Jesus and the adulteress woman in the gospel of John.


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## atlashunter (Jul 26, 2011)

I wonder, if we had perfect originals of each of the books in that list and you were asked to go through them and determine which were the inspired word of God and which weren't, do you think you could do it and come up with the same list as those who compiled the New Testament?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 26, 2011)

I consider that a great question, Atlas.   Never thought of that, but here goes...

I considered this question while I was in a meeting here at work, (being bored stiff lol)  and this is what I would do....

I'd look at the list of books, and would use the same criteria that any book of antiquity should be gauged by...  1) internal evidence 2) external evidence and 3) bibliographic evidence.

Who was the author?  Was the author a contemporary of Jesus or Jesus' companions?

Were there known factual errors in the manuscripts?

What were other writers saying about the book?

In my opinion, if 1 and 2 Tim, all the Johns, etc, were outside the lifetime of John and Paul, I would hold those writings as 'suspicious'.


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## atlashunter (Jul 26, 2011)

Those are good questions to ask. I'm sure there are many more. Unfortunately many of them are simply unknown such as who the authors were. Even if we did have the answers though I'm not sure how much help it would be in identifying divinely inspired scripture. For example, assume we have a text that we know with certainty was written by a disciple of Jesus and we couldn't find any claims that were proven false by other known historical facts. Would that be sufficient proof of divine origin?

Those who compiled the New Testament did not have all the answers to these questions available to them. Or if they did, it didn't make much difference to them. How can I say this? Because the gospels are written by anonymous authors, contradict each other in their accounts, and contain factual errors.

Even in a perfect world where we had the correct answers to all of these questions if you gave these books to 10 different people and asked them individually to sort out those that were God's word from those that weren't you wouldn't get any two that came up with exactly the same results. And as we know, those who cobbled the New Testament together didn't have those perfect conditions of knowledge so shouldn't that cast a little bit of doubt on their results?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Because the gospels are written by anonymous authors, contradict each other in their accounts, and contain factual errors.



Personally, I'm glad the gospels don't agree word-for-word on every detail...because if they did, we all know what everyone would say about that!    COLLABORATION!

I was scanning the 'earlychristianwritings.com' site earlier and something jumped out at me...    

Man, that Jesus guy must have been one heckofa man!!!   ("if you can call him a man..."  Josephus Flavius 93AD)    Who heap load of writing about someone who may have never existed, too!       sorry....i digress.


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## atlashunter (Jul 26, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Personally, I'm glad the gospels don't agree word-for-word on every detail...because if they did, we all know what everyone would say about that!    COLLABORATION!



Yeah maybe so. But one thing we can say for sure in light of this fact, they aren't inerrant. And if they aren't inerrant then they either are the work of man, not God, Or... God inspired conflicting accounts. Take your pick. And by the way, if inerrancy isn't a qualifier for distinguishing a book supposedly from a deity then what is?




BANDERSNATCH said:


> I was scanning the 'earlychristianwritings.com' site earlier and something jumped out at me...
> 
> Man, that Jesus guy must have been one heckofa man!!!   ("if you can call him a man..."  Josephus Flavius 93AD)    Who heap load of writing about someone who may have never existed, too!       sorry....i digress.



Having an empire on your side certainly helps.


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## stringmusic (Jul 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Yeah maybe so. But one thing we can say for sure in light of this fact, they aren't inerrant. And if they aren't inerrant then they either are the work of man, not God, Or... God inspired conflicting accounts. Take your pick. And by the way, if inerrancy isn't a qualifier for distinguishing a book supposedly from a deity then what is?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What empire would that have been?


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## atlashunter (Jul 26, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> What empire would that have been?



The Romans.


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## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

I should have also mentioned that along with the fear of eternal torment if you are wrong and the bible is right is the fear of no heaven if you are right and the bible is wrong. It's very hard to face the possibility that death and separation from your loved ones might be permanent.


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## stringmusic (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> The Romans.



Wasn't Paul inprisoned there?


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## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Wasn't Paul inprisoned there?



That was before it became the state religion.


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## dawg2 (Jul 27, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> What empire would that have been?





atlashunter said:


> The Romans.





stringmusic said:


> Wasn't Paul inprisoned there?





atlashunter said:


> That was before it became the state religion.



So which is it?  He did or did not have an empire behind him?  Doesn't make sense if his "empire" crucified him.  Kind of an odd way to show support.


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## stringmusic (Jul 27, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> So which is it?  He did or did not have an empire behind him?  Doesn't make sense if his "empire" crucified him.  Kind of an odd way to show support.



Exactly.


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## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> So which is it?  He did or did not have an empire behind him?  Doesn't make sense if his "empire" crucified him.  Kind of an odd way to show support.



My response about having an empire on your side was addressing the spread of christianity. No where did I suggest that Paul had the Roman empire on his side. Paul was never even mentioned.


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## stringmusic (Jul 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> My response about having an empire on your side was addressing the spread of christianity. No where did I suggest that Paul had the Roman empire on his side. Paul was never even mentioned.



I think Paul was pretty big on spreading the good news of Christ, if the Roman empire was on the side of spreading Christianity, they were on the side of Paul...... who they inprisioned???


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## JB0704 (Jul 27, 2011)

Christianity became the official religion of Rome in 391 ad (I confess, I used wikipedia).

Paul was executed around 67 AD (wiki again).

It seems that Rome's habit of changing leadership could allow one to conclude that the emprie's position on Christianity changed over a few hundred years.


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## kedo (Aug 10, 2011)

To the original question: No! Never!! I look to Him to get me through each and every day - no matter what happens!!!!


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## Madman (Aug 10, 2011)

I constantly look at what I believe and how God has worked in my life.

Does it make sense?  Is it real?  Has God been faithful?  Has He lied to me yet? Has He ever asked/commanded ANYTHING that was not for mine and other's best interest?

The only thing I have seen presented here are the same old "what ifs", I've lived through the what ifs.

I now live in the WHAT IS.


Mark 12: 13 Then they sent to Him some of the Pharisees and the Herodians, to catch Him in His words. 14 When they had come, they said to Him, “Teacher, we know that You are true, and care about no one; for You do not regard the person of men, but teach the way of God in truth.

John 8: 31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” 


And WHO is truth.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 10, 2011)

You live in the what you think is. As do I.


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## gmchd (Aug 10, 2011)

No, I have seen to many miracles in my life for that. Without belief there is no hope. John 3:16 :-]


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## bad0351 (Aug 10, 2011)

gmchd said:


> No, I have seen to many miracles in my life for that. Without belief there is no hope. John 3:16 :-]



Tell us about one....


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## ambush80 (Aug 10, 2011)

Madman said:


> I constantly look at what I believe and how God has worked in my life.
> 
> Does it make sense?  Is it real?  Has God been faithful?  Has He lied to me yet? Has He ever asked/commanded ANYTHING that was not for mine and other's best interest?
> 
> ...



Quoting scripture here is kind of like quoting MSNBC in the political forum.


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## Madman (Aug 11, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Quoting scripture here is kind of like quoting MSNBC in the political forum.



Why is that?


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## bullethead (Aug 11, 2011)

Madman said:


> Why is that?



Would you take any scripture from outside of the Bible seriously?


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