# Judge revolver vs. shotgun law?



## Cknerr (Oct 19, 2009)

If it is legal to have a judge -6 shot revolver made for .410 shotgun shells - what kind of twist to the law did they use to get by the 18" minimum?

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Chris


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## TACTICOOL (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm taking a guess here, but is it because the .410 is a caliber (or bore) rather than a gauge??

hmmmmm


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## TACTICOOL (Oct 19, 2009)

found it.........  Good ole Wiki

The fact that the .410 bore shell fits in a .45 Colt chamber has resulted in some unusual applications. While shotguns are often limited in minimum length, a firearm chambered in .45 Colt, such as the Contender pistol, is not defined as a shotgun even though it can chamber shotgun shells. American Derringer has long offered .45 Colt/.410 bore Derringers[8], and recently Taurus and Magnum Research both began to offer revolvers with extended cylinders, chambered for .45 Colt but long enough to hold .410 shells as well. Magnum Research's is an expensive single-action model in their BFR (Biggest, Finest Revolver) line, while the inexpensive Taurus Judge is similar in price to their other double-action revolvers. The now discontinued MIL Thunder 5 was also chambered in .410-bore.


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## Doyle (Oct 20, 2009)

Actually, it has more to do with the fact that the judge has a rifled barrel.  If that exact same judge was produced in a smooth bore version, that would now be an illegal length shotgun.


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## germag (Oct 20, 2009)

Doyle said:


> Actually, it has more to do with the fact that the judge has a rifled barrel.  If that exact same judge was produced in a smooth bore version, that would now be an illegal length shotgun.



So, does that mean that if I have a fully rifled 12 Guage slug gun, it would be legal to cut it down to under 18"?


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## redneckcamo (Oct 20, 2009)

the judge is a legal handgun ..... and a company in Tenn. makes a a 410/45colt  derringer and also makes a 410 double barrel  with a pistol grip thats around 14'' overall length ........but if you put a buttstock on it its illegal ....


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## bighonkinjeep (Oct 20, 2009)

germag said:


> So, does that mean that if I have a fully rifled 12 Guage slug gun, it would be legal to cut it down to under 18"?



It also has to do with how the receiver was designated when it left the factory. 
If it left the factory as a long gun then it has to stay a long gun.
 Unless you follow the rules to pay the tax, register it and convert it to a SBS


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## Cknerr (Oct 20, 2009)

I have one of the older T/C barrels chambered extra deep for 44 colt and a .410 certainly fits very nicely. Think it says 410  and 44 on the barrel.  Told don't take it to the Great Socialist Country of California because they branded it a shotgun and the barrel is too short. Granted they can make the law more stringent....

Being kinda paranoid, I kept my barrel tucked away. Now I hear about this Judge revolver. Sounded a little too fantastic to be true. Guess it is though! cool

Time to load up some brass and knock the dust off the rafters! 

...and won't turn work away when someone wants their barrel re-chambered a bit deeper.

Thanks,
Chris


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## jbowes89 (Oct 21, 2009)

Doyle said:


> Actually, it has more to do with the fact that the judge has a rifled barrel.  If that exact same judge was produced in a smooth bore version, that would now be an illegal length shotgun.


Actually if I'm not mistaken if it were a smooth bore that would classify it as an AOW or Any Other Weapon, it wouldn't be a pistol because it's smooth bore, wouldn't be a rifle or shotgun because it has no stock or legal length barrel.


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## redlevel (Oct 21, 2009)

*mare's laig*

http://www.bountyhunterspecial.com/

Have you seen this one?   I understand it is legal because it is manufactured as a handgun.  If you cut a rifle down to the exact same specs, it would be illegal.


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## dawg2 (Oct 21, 2009)

No different than an AR pistol.


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## MustangMAtt30 (Oct 21, 2009)

The only thing that concerns me about the Judge and I think it is a cool gun......is the barrell length enough to ensure that the buckshot fired out of it will penetrate far enough into the vitals?


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## Twenty five ought six (Oct 21, 2009)

redlevel said:


> http://www.bountyhunterspecial.com/
> 
> Have you seen this one?   I understand it is legal because it is manufactured as a handgun.  If you cut a rifle down to the exact same specs, it would be illegal.



It is legal because you have to register it with BATF as a short barreled rifle.  If you don't register it, it would be illegal to possess.  It's not a handgun.

It is not manufactured as a hand gun, they are cut down Winchesters.  Once a receiver has been used to create either a rifle or handgun, it retains that characterization regardless of subsequent modifications.

Anyone who wanted to mess up a perfectly good rifle, and pay all the taxes could make a similar gun from about any rifle.


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## Cknerr (Oct 21, 2009)

judging by the price tag, they are right proud of their work!!

Noticed the 8 states where they can not be licensed - most in New England....sigh, what is this country coming too.


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## redlevel (Oct 21, 2009)

*con-frused*



Twenty five ought six said:


> It is legal because you have to register it with BATF as a short barreled rifle.  If you don't register it, it would be illegal to possess.  It's not a handgun.
> 
> It is not manufactured as a hand gun, they are cut down Winchesters.  Once a receiver has been used to create either a rifle or handgun, it retains that characterization regardless of subsequent modifications.
> 
> Anyone who wanted to mess up a perfectly good rifle, and pay all the taxes could make a similar gun from about any rifle.



Yeah, you are correct about that particular model.  However, someone, Rossi I believe, is making a Mare's Leg with the same specs.

http://www.gunblast.com/Puma-MaresLeg.htm
_McQueen’s Mare’s Leg has been replicated before, and cutting down a rifle to this configuration requires permission from the government and a $200 tax to do it legally. Manufacturing the Mare’s Leg as a pistol avoids that legal pitfall, and it has been done on a small scale just a few years ago. Now however, Legacy Sports is marketing the Mare’s Leg shown here as a Puma 92 Bounty Hunter pistol, and doing so by placing the 92 pistol among its already extensive lineup of Model 92 rifles and carbines. The Puma rifles are now made by Chiappa in Italy, and no longer wear a manual safety atop the bolt, as they did when they were built by Rossi in Brazil. The new 92 Pumas have very smooth actions, excellent workmanship, and are well-fitted._

Sorry.  I was confrused about which model was an actual cut-down Win 92 and which was the "handgun" reproduction.


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## Twenty five ought six (Oct 21, 2009)

> However, someone, Rossi I believe, is making a Mare's Leg with the same specs.



Rossi is using new receivers (I'm assuming), which it can designate as rifle or pistol.  As Dawg2 noted, same situation with AR-15 receivers.  Exactly same receiver can be either a pistol or  rifle, but once designated, it has to keep that designation for ever.

So the "bountyhunter" rebuild and Rossi  new manufacture are two entirely different things legally.  Not trying to be critical, but with the gun regs. it's really easy to paint with too broad a brush.  Too many reactions "you can do this because I saw (or better "heard") this.  "

This is a very good example because two different companies are apparently making similar  modifications to otherwise identical Win. 92 receivers.  In a perfect world there wouldn't be a difference, but in the imperfect world in which we live, there certainly is.


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## Backlasher82 (Oct 23, 2009)

jbowes89 said:


> Actually if I'm not mistaken if it were a smooth bore that would classify it as an AOW or Any Other Weapon, it wouldn't be a pistol because it's smooth bore, wouldn't be a rifle or shotgun because it has no stock or legal length barrel.



You're correct, a short barrel shotgun is classified as AOW and can be purchased by paying a $5 transfer fee. 

http://www.g-man-weaponry.com/Short_Barrel_Shotguns.htm 

This guy is in GA and sells 10" and 12.5" short barrel shotguns. I know a guy that had G Man make a 9" barrel model for him and it was very well made, he carried it in a holster I guess he had made for it. I know it was a very impressive sidearm. I don't know about shooting a 12 gauge pump with a 9" barrel and what it would take to hold on to it but I imagine the pattern would pretty much cover everything in front of you.


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## Cknerr (Oct 23, 2009)

*short barrel*

I have had a lot of small business owners ask me for a sawed off pump with a pistol grip. My first question is why a pump? You will only get one shot with a 12 ga, and likely the same result with a 20ga. The sound of chambering a round won't do any good at that late stage of the robbery.

They give me a funny luck - have to point out it is really hard pulling a trigger the second time when you have several broken fingers - especially the one previously on the trigger that is now mangled in the trigger guard. The extra light weight is going to create a kick like nothing they ever encountered. They likely won't be properly braced for the shot, so the outcome is pretty much assured.

Wish I could fix them up. The punks deserve every last pellet they get. Hope they live a long time and feel everyone of those pellets too!

Doubt reduced loads would help much....

...sigh, guess we will have to strap on a policeman to our belts for protection? That would really thrill'em! What is a person to do?

Just went through this first thing this morning with a young lady. Very frustrating, really wish I could help her. She does have reason to be concerned. She is single, and runs the business pretty much herself. Waiting on an escort is difficult. Her hours don't make it convenient to schedule a guard. Would a policemen or deputy that is on duty escort her? I have never asked one - guess I need to...or is there a Leo reading this that can answer?  

Facing the deposit machine at night makes it very easy for someone to sneak up and do you dirty. Even if you where armed, would you be able to reach for it and fire with some accuracy before the robber beat you to it?

wow, this is getting long winded and a bit off topic
Take care,
Chris


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## tv_racin_fan (Oct 23, 2009)

I dunno but I would think something like this would be fine in such a short 12guage.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=766772

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=162922


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## Twenty five ought six (Oct 23, 2009)

tv_racin_fan said:


> I dunno but I would think something like this would be fine in such a short 12guage.
> 
> http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=766772
> 
> http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=162922









As an aside I ran across some of these and shot them at sporting clays to see if they would function in my 390.  As with everything else I've run through it, it worked fine.

As far as a shotgun goes for self defense, I think for a lot of people it is preferable to a revolver simply because shooting it two handed, they are more likely to instinctively move to the target.

I've experimented around with shooting shotguns through plywood (developing shields for trappers in the days of manual traps), and at ranges up to about 5 yards, there is minimal dispersion, even from a cyl. bore.  The shot basically acts as a single slug --which is why SC ranges quickly abandoned using plywood as a shield.  

I pretty much have my choice of shotguns for home defense, and my choice is a 20 ga. SXS in a "coach gun" configuration.


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## acmech (Oct 25, 2009)

MustangMAtt30 said:


> The only thing that concerns me about the Judge and I think it is a cool gun......is the barrell length enough to ensure that the buckshot fired out of it will penetrate far enough into the vitals?



The ballistic testing I've seen shows it to be a very poor performer as a self defense weapon using .410 loads.  Best penetration with a .410 slug was around 7 inches and buckshot was 4.5.  Keep in mind to be considered a good round for self defense, it needs to penetrate at least 12 inches of ballistic gel.  Your concerns are valid, there is more hype and Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- surrounding Judge than fact.  It does do well in ballistic gel with 45lc loads.


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## bowbuck (Nov 2, 2009)

acmech said:


> The ballistic testing I've seen shows it to be a very poor performer as a self defense weapon using .410 loads.  Best penetration with a .410 slug was around 7 inches and buckshot was 4.5.  Keep in mind to be considered a good round for self defense, it needs to penetrate at least 12 inches of ballistic gel.  Your concerns are valid, there is more hype and Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- surrounding Judge than fact.  It does do well in ballistic gel with 45lc loads.



Not trying to stir the pot, but at the range the judge was designed to be used (or any compact handgun too).  7 inches will get to the heart of a subject or lungs for that matter pretty well. The bottom line is that once someone takes a load of buckshot at 6 feet in the chest, it takes a real bad mother to want anymore of it. Thus allowing you to get distance from the subject.   If they do want more then at that point the second shot should go to the head at which point you should take out your tactical knife and behead them before the demon arises for more.  On a lot of people 14 inches of pentration kills the innocent person behind them on the street.  Just my take on it.


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