# Over Penetration with TC Shockwaves?



## Chase4556 (Dec 16, 2013)

I'm shooting the TC Shockwave 250gr out of my CVA Wolf. 100gr charge of 777 pellets. Not sure what velocities that gives you, but I have shot 2 deer so far with them, and my buddy has shot 1. 

First deer was hit right between the hind legs at the spine, bullet traveled all the way through the body and exited the front left shoulder.

Deer two was pretty much the same as deer one, just reversed. Bullet entered the front right shoulder, exited the rear end. On this deer, it ran about 25 yards and only bled for the last 5 yards, and even then it was not a heavy blood trail.

Deer three I am not sure how it was shot as I am home and my buddy was using the gun. However, he said it too ran about 30 yds before crashing, and the only blood he found was a drop where it was shot, and a drop where he found the deer. 

Has anyone else experienced these issues of over penetration and a weak blood trail with the Shockwaves? They group great, but we got lucky on finding those last two deer because they only ran a short way, thank you 45cal bullet! I am thinking about shooting the Maxi-hunters and seeing how they group. I like the thought of a big solid lead bullet.

Also, I can use most any 45 cal bullets in the sabots right? Meaning I can go buy loose 45cal handgun/rifle bullets, load them in the sabot, and shoot them? I may look into doing that if possible.


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## icdedturkes (Dec 18, 2013)

I have shot 2 deer with the shockwave/SST that I recovered with zero expansion and very little to no blood.. Alternatively I have recovered 2 deer shot with the SST/Shockwave with complete core jacket separation and no weight retention.. 

I no longer shoot them or will shoot them..


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## chevyman32257 (Dec 18, 2013)

I had a similar problem with the t/c shockwaves.(yellow bullets) Shot a buck ran 40 yards only a few drops of blood and almost no expansion. next year shot ( blue bullets) shot two deer dropped one other ran 20 yards. , great expansion, blood trail easy to follow.
 What i found is all the bullets are the same weight wise. The yellow bullets are for target shooting, and the blue bullets are for hunting. On the side of the box on the newer boxes they explain what the bullet is designed for. Other than the color there is no difference that you can see in the bullets. Shot the blue shockwaves, almost lost a 140inch 9 point, shooting the yellow shockwaves


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## Chase4556 (Dec 18, 2013)

Hmm. Seems like I will swap to a different type like the blue tipped, or swap rpunds all together. 

Sucks that my buddy just bought a brand new package of the yellows. Maybe try for neck shots with these.


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## 7Mag Hunter (Dec 18, 2013)

I have the same problem with round balls in my 54 cal Hawken....

Blows right thru deer.......and leaves 'em dead..........


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## LanceColeman (Dec 19, 2013)

You can't really compare your blood trails with others blood trails describing the shots you took. Your putting entrance and exit wounds in heavily muscled and bone areas unlike rib cages and aren't going to get the same results.

2yrs ago I shot one through the brisket with the bullet lodging in the rear ham. Dear made it 50yds and piled up in sight of me. That was with a hornady XTP out of a 480ruger. Blood trail was marginal but so was my shot! Deer was dead regardless.

On a side note every one my wife has hit with hornady 240gr XTPs behind the shoulder has left great blood trails, and not went far at all. She shoots 100grs of clean shot.


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## shadow2 (Dec 19, 2013)

I killed two Tuesday in ky with shockwaves.  One went 0 feet after a high shoulder shot at 120yds and the other went about 50 after a double lung shot with very good blood after the first 15 yds.  I have had great results with them on the 15 or so deer I have shot with them.


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## icdedturkes (Dec 19, 2013)

chevyman32257 said:


> I had a similar problem with the t/c shockwaves.(yellow bullets) Shot a buck ran 40 yards only a few drops of blood and almost no expansion. next year shot ( blue bullets) shot two deer dropped one other ran 20 yards. , great expansion, blood trail easy to follow.
> What i found is all the bullets are the same weight wise. The yellow bullets are for target shooting, and the blue bullets are for hunting. On the side of the box on the newer boxes they explain what the bullet is designed for. Other than the color there is no difference that you can see in the bullets. Shot the blue shockwaves, almost lost a 140inch 9 point, shooting the yellow shockwaves



The blue tipped Shockwaves are a bonded bullet.. It _should_ help to eliminate the core jacket separation common with the regular Shockwave or SST.... Whether it will remedy the problem of failure to open would have to be seen.. From what I have seen very few people shoot the bonded shockwave, the regular yellow tipped shockwaves are much more readily available. 



Chase4556 said:


> Hmm. Seems like I will swap to a different type like the blue tipped, or swap rpunds all together.
> 
> Sucks that my buddy just bought a brand new package of the yellows. Maybe try for neck shots with these.



I would switch to a Barnes bullet.. Simple design very very low chance of failure.. We have a Wolf, 2 Optimas and an Optima Elite in the family and all shoot the 250 Barnes T-EZ as well as anything.. 

The XTP mentioned above is the better bullet choice from TC/Hornady and perform great on deer.. IME the accuracy is not on par with a T-EZ or SST but more than acceptable.. 

As for the new box of Shockwaves, drill a hole straight through the center.. They make great deep water Carolina rig sinkers.


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## watermedic (Dec 19, 2013)

If you wait for a better shot angle you will get a blood trail.

High entry shots that pass through the guts before exiting usually don't leave good blood.

Let them get broadside and shoot them in the lower third of the chest.

If you shoot them longways you are only getting one lung so you cant expect to have the best blood right?


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## Chase4556 (Dec 20, 2013)

Yeah, not one of the mentioned shots was ideal in any way. I was stalking the deer, and when they saw me, I took the shot I was presented. Id assume with a better shot, the blood trail eould also be better. It was more of how the bullet traveled the entire length of the animal, and still exited. 

I may pick up some different bullets. Im home in Texas and the Gander Mountain has a large selection of both powders and bullets. Merry Christmas to me.


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## bronco611 (Dec 21, 2013)

I have had similar experiences with the power belt bullets with the plastic tips. I removed the plastic tips and problem has been solved. The bullet still passes through but it actually expands and leaves a much larger exit hole than just the diameter of the bullet. Probably could solve that problem the same way?


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## watermedic (Dec 21, 2013)

Dang guys, 

A 50 cal muzzle loader shoots a .45 in diameter bullet if you use sabots.

You aren't really looking for expansion, just penetration and shock.


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## Chase4556 (Dec 22, 2013)

Yeah, but the more expansion, and the bigger the exit hole, the happier I am. 

I am looking at the Hornady XTP rounds, or Barnes XPBs. I figured I will pick them up, and some of the super glide sabots and see how they do. May end up shooting better groups, and have a nice hollow point that I know will expand upon impact.


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## icdedturkes (Dec 22, 2013)

Chase4556 said:


> Yeah, but the more expansion, and the bigger the exit hole, the happier I am.
> 
> I am looking at the Hornady XTP rounds, or Barnes XPBs. I figured I will pick them up, and some of the super glide sabots and see how they do. May end up shooting better groups, and have a nice hollow point that I know will expand upon impact.


Why not just buy Hornady XTPs or Barnes Expanders with a supplied Sabot.. 

I shoot Barnes T-EZ tipped flat base.. I love them, but if all my shots were 100 and under I would shoot the Expander..


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## Chase4556 (Dec 24, 2013)

I will pick up a 20 pack of the XTPs to begin with to check how the rifle shoots them. If it shoots well, and performs well, I can buy the bullets and sabots seperatly and come out at about $50 for 100 rounds for the 250gr XTPs, and $60/100 for the 240gr XTP MAGs. It would cost a little more to get the pre packaged ones. It was just a thought anyway. Odds are, 100rds are WAY more than I want at one time, seeing as 20 would probably last plenty long after I got the gun initially sighted in.


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## Chase4556 (Dec 24, 2013)

Just looked at the Expander. I like Barnes stuff, so I may pick them up too. When I walk over to the black powder isle at the Gander Mountain, I am just overwhelmed. At least at the Bass Pro back in Savannah, I was limited so I had to just make a decision. Now there are so many to choose from. I'm like a kid in a candy shop.


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## Chase4556 (Dec 30, 2013)

Just shot one this evening, broadside at about 80yds. Still using the Shockwaves because I have not had a chance to sight in with the XTPs I just picked up. Tracked the deer for over 400 yards, found a place where it laid up, then no blood past that. Had a good to very good blood trail the entire way. No deer so far. 

This is the first deer I have ever lost, pretty sick to my stomache over it. I am going back in a couple hours with my buddies dog and will see how that goes. I will be out there again in the morning and be looking again if I dont find it later. Will be sighting in the new XTPs tomorrow.


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## Apex Predator (Dec 31, 2013)

Me thinks the bullet ain't at fault.  Where did you "think" you hit the deer?


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## Chase4556 (Dec 31, 2013)

Square in the lungs, broad side. Found blood where I shot her, and the trail was constant bright red blood. No gut material in it, just frothy bright red blood. It looked like you walked through the woods with a 5 gallon cooler of kool aid and just left a steady stream of blood. I will say that im pretty sure I pushed her at first. I found a spot where it looked like she layed up, then kept going. When I found that, I backed out for about an hour and came back with a couple buddies.

I went back this morning with a dog, and we still didnt find her. I will keep trying today, I know the meat is bad by now, but I at least want to find the deer. I am also going to sigbht in the XTPs.


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## Chase4556 (Dec 31, 2013)

Even with the bullet not expanding, there is no way I would have thought a deer could run that far with a 45cal hole through it. I didnt imagine they could loose that much blood and keep trucking. Thats why I really think I may have pushed her. So Id say a combination of me pushing her, and what I believe to be no expansion of the bullet is what lead to this deer running so far and maybe not being recovered.


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## Apex Predator (Dec 31, 2013)

You don't think there's a chance you didn't hit it through both lungs?  400 yards with both lungs shot through is pretty long odds.  Just sayin.


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## icdedturkes (Dec 31, 2013)

As bad as I hate SST/Shockwave it is not to blame in this incident.. If that deer had been shot through the lungs, she was dead before you got out of your stand and you would not have pushed her.. 

Additionally the two deer I have recovered with zero expansion from a SST had no blood, not what you describe.. 

If it indeed was bullet failure and your shot was as perfect as described I would be more apt to think core jacket separation resulting in penetration to one lung and no pass through.. Is there blood on both sides?

All In all I would say you most likely your aim was off. My best guess..


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## Chase4556 (Dec 31, 2013)

Aim could have been off, but if that is the case, I cant explain the bright red frothy blood. Cant tell if blood was on both sides, BUT I shot the deer on its left side, and there was blood on trees that would indicate it was coming out the right side of the deer. So complete pass through. 

The fact that I have shot two deer before and the bullet traveled the full body length and exited, I find it hard to believe this shot the bullet did not have a complete pass through. Am I wrong in saying that a liver shot is darker blood? And a gut shot deer wont bleed a whole lot, and will usually have digestive gunk in the blood? I just know what blood looks like after having an arrow through both lungs, and the blood was the same in this case. 

I guess im just upset not only with loosing the deer, but the fact that it was my first deer to ever loose.


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## hortonhunter22 (Jan 1, 2014)

usually when i see bright red long tracks,  aim was low and was either hit leg or low chest...some of those end alright eventually,  some dont


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## Chase4556 (Jan 1, 2014)

Went and looked for another 2 hours today. Obviously the meat is no good, but I at least wanted to find the deer. My buddy and I have come to the conclusion that aliens came and beamed her up from the last place we found blood. You could tell she laid up there, blood everywhere, then nada leaving it. Must have been aliens. 

It makes me upset that I lost this deer. Its the first deer I have ever lost, and its a kick to the gut. Im peetty sure poor bullet performance and me pushing her are the two leading causes. The deer is dead, we all know that, but my poor decision to not let her lay up longer is what I think really caused it. She would have still died even with poor bullet performance, but me pushing her is what I think sealed the deal on loosing her.


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## Apex Predator (Jan 2, 2014)

You are in denial about the "two leading causes".  This hunting sometimes requires learning from your own mistakes, but you, prolly like the rest of us, don't have time to make all those mistakes yourself!  Good job on sticking with the recovery for as long as you did.  They can be really tough critters, but shot placement trumps that 99.9% of the time.


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## Chase4556 (Jan 2, 2014)

Yeah, im just saying that even with a less than perfect shot, had I let her lay for 20-30 minutes, I probably would have found her. 

Lesson to learn by, and from now on I will give them time unless I see them laying where I shot them.


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## Stingray23 (Jan 2, 2014)

I shot a big doe Friday using T/C Shockwaves 250gr, ( yellow) at 65 yds, double lung and she ran about 30 yds, exit wound was the size of a silver dollar.


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## Chase4556 (Jan 2, 2014)

Stingray23 said:


> I shot a big doe Friday using T/C Shockwaves 250gr, ( yellow) at 65 yds, double lung and she ran about 30 yds, exit wound was the size of a silver dollar.



I was using the yellow tips as well. Wish I had the same experience. The two deer I did shoot with them had the same size holes, both entrance and exit.


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## Chase4556 (Jan 9, 2014)

Finished up my season tonight with one more doe. My freezer is filler and I can not be happier with how the new XTPs performed. The bullet expanded just as I wanted, and it was a bang flop scenario. Massive trauma, and a nice big exit wound.


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## Apex Predator (Jan 10, 2014)

Chase4556 said:


> Finished up my season tonight with one more doe. My freezer is filler and I can not be happier with how the new XTPs performed. The bullet expanded just as I wanted, and it was a bang flop scenario. Massive trauma, and a nice big exit wound.



Sweet!  I'm glad you found something that works better for you.  I ordered some sabots that I want to try some different pills with.


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## Chase4556 (Jan 10, 2014)

I was told by a friend to try out PR Bullets. Im going to order some and olay around with different bullets, powders and piwder loads now that Im in the "off season". Its time to squeeze the best performance out of this thing.


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## tcward (Jan 11, 2014)

Chase4556 said:


> I was told by a friend to try out PR Bullets. Im going to order some and olay around with different bullets, powders and piwder loads now that Im in the "off season". Its time to squeeze the best performance out of this thing.



I love the 195 grain .45!


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## Mtns2hunt (Mar 15, 2014)

I am reading a lot of dissatisfaction with the TC shockwave a bullet similar to Hornady's SST. I shoot TC shockwaves in the 200 grain (a 40 cal Bullet) out to 300 yds. This bullet will at times not expand unless hitting bone but is deadly on shoulder shots - especially when aiming for the off shoulder. 90% of my deer drop within 20 yards or immediately with the shoulder shot.

On chest shots I aim behind the shoulder and low for the best blood trail. If the bullet hits a rib it will expand nicely: if not it will pencil through. 

The shockwave will expand when shooting the neck - as close to the body as possible where it will encounter greater resistance. I seldom use this shot.

On close in shots to the shoulder - damage can be severe - there will be fragmentation and possibly no exit. I have little doubt that the bullet expends a lot of energy when leaving no exit wound. Many hunters like to dump all the energy in the deer - others prefer a pass through for a good blood trail.

Shockwave performance varies due to range and velocity but is one of the most accurate bullets I have ever shot. This allows me to place my bullets where they are most effective even when shooting running deer and I do shoot running deer. I also practice my shooting year around.

Many of the shots recounted in this forum indicate poor bullet placement - this will definitely impact upon a bullets performance. 

So far I have killed over sixty deer with the TC shockwave. I shoot a TC Pro Hunter with a Leopold ultimateslam scope with 200 grain shockwaves, 110 grains of BH-209 and a CCI shotgun primer. I am very accurate out to 300 yards but limit my shots to 250. 

Each of us must determine what the best combination is to shoot - that is half the fun - So for my two cents the shockwave performs very well and I donate a lot of venison to the needy as well as fill my freezers.


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## Chase4556 (Apr 27, 2014)

Mtns2hunt said:


> I am reading a lot of dissatisfaction with the TC shockwave a bullet similar to Hornady's SST. I shoot TC shockwaves in the 200 grain (a 40 cal Bullet) out to 300 yds. This bullet will at times not expand unless hitting bone but is deadly on shoulder shots - especially when aiming for the off shoulder. 90% of my deer drop within 20 yards or immediately with the shoulder shot.
> 
> On chest shots I aim behind the shoulder and low for the best blood trail. If the bullet hits a rib it will expand nicely: if not it will pencil through.
> 
> ...



I will agree they are super accurate. However, they just didn't perform as expected for me.


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## dwinsor (May 20, 2014)

Chase4556 said:


> I'm shooting the TC Shockwave 250gr out of my CVA Wolf. 100gr charge of 777 pellets. Not sure what velocities that gives you, but I have shot 2 deer so far with them, and my buddy has shot 1.
> 
> First deer was hit right between the hind legs at the spine, bullet traveled all the way through the body and exited the front left shoulder.
> 
> ...





When I first got into muzzleloading I shot the maxi and the maxi-hunters for a couple of years.  I was always spot on with my shot and never lost a deer.  That being said the bullets had little to no expansion.  Little hole in, Little hole out, never a blood trail.  Then T/C came out with the 3 piece sabot.  I used a Nosler 240 grain JSP .429 dia.  Little hole in, chunks of lungs blown out the other side.  Awsome blood trail.  Nosler 240 grain JSP is one wicked bullet for deer.


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## Mtns2hunt (Jun 6, 2014)

Chase4556 said:


> I will agree they are super accurate. However, they just didn't perform as expected for me.



No disrespect but I feel you missed my point. Shot placement is the key. You have to shoot your bullet enough to insure it hits exactly where you intend it too. This is true with any bullet.

The TC shockwave performs differently in regard to distance, velocity and placement. You have to account for all of these variables. 

I have shot many different bullets and they all have their idiosyncrasies that need to be learned and addressed. Otherwise you will just bounce from bullet to bullet never really learning that particular bullet. I have shot at least a couple of thousand shockwaves - its a good bullet.


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## BarnesAddict (Jun 7, 2014)

One thing I learned a long time ago, was to NEVER shoot a bullet that you couldn't consider reliable 100% of the time.  Another thing taught long ago is, that you can shoot the best bullet in the world, but it won't make up for poor shot placement.

IMO confidence in the rifle, load, bullet and one's self is Rule #2, safety is #1.  To gain confidence, you won't do it by shooting a dozen rounds a year.  Obtaining total confidence is when the rifle becomes an extension of your body, not an object in your hand.  A man or woman with total confidence in their firearm, will most likely shoot better than another with a top of the line firearm, with little or no confidence.  Its .... ALL .... about confidence.

If you're shooting a bullet that you have no confidence in or, that many others have had bad experiences with, why are you hunting with it?  Wouldn't it make more sense to research and look for a bullet with the least amount of negativity?  Of course eliminating the shooters with the poor shot placements.

Which of the following bullets would you prefer to shoot game with?

This bullet was recovered after a complete pass through and found in the dirt corn field.





Both these bullets were recovered, shooting 90grs 2f at about 120yds.





Look over the following examples





The following is of a Barnes 250gr TMZ bullet a friend recovered.  He took a running doe in the chest at over 100yds.  He recovered the bullet just under the hide in one of the rear quarters.  The deer dropped in it stride and never moved.





Although a brand of bullet may be accurate and group very well, that DOES NOT mean that its a reliable bullet for hunting.  Now some may argue that 100's of thousands have been harvested with a round ball.  No argument but, we don't know how many were lost either!  Makes the argument mute.......

Here's a bullet that you'll find little negativity about, a Barnes and unless someone had poor judgment and ended up with a poorly placed shot, you won't find much negativity with them.  They're a premium bullet and used by many who expect reliability.  Many of the smokeless shooters use Barnes when hunting, leaving the MH bullets for target shooting.

Look'em all over.... Which bullet do you rather hunt with?


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## Mtns2hunt (Jun 10, 2014)

Barmesaddict nice post and very convincing. 

I shot the Barnes at one time. It was devastating when it hit bone but on several chest shots it was like shooting a steel rod through the deer - no expansion. 

So I switched to the 200 gr shockwave 40 cal. I did experience fragmentation and separation of the jacket and core on shoulder shots but the damage was incredible. The shockwave was dumping all its energy into the deer rather then losing energy by passing through - is this bad?  At the same time when shooting into the chest I get a complete pass through, expansion and a very good blood trail so long as the bullet hits low in the chest. 

High chest shots seldom leave a good blood trail but with such an accurate bullet there is little reason you can not place the bullet exactly where you want - even on running shots.

I have confidence in the shockwave: it performs predictably when I shoot into the shoulder or chest and I practice all year  as I truly enjoy shooting a muzzle loader.

I also think the Barnes and Hornady bullets are very good but my success on whitetail with the 200 grain shockwave has been outstanding. 

I would probably shoot the Barnes on bear, elk or moose but the Shockwave is my go to bullet on Whitetail. With the very liberal seasons in my state I have put a lot of deer on the ground to prove its effectiveness.

I am however open to experimentation and plan later this summer to shoot several different bullets that have been mentioned in forums to check their quality. I have not done this for awhile and may be missing some advancements in technology.

I do agree that it is all about practice and confidence and personal opinion.


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## BarnesAddict (Jun 10, 2014)

Mtns2hunt said:


> Barmesaddict nice post and very convincing.
> 
> I shot the Barnes at one time. It was devastating when it hit bone but on several chest shots it was like shooting a steel rod through the deer - no expansion.
> 
> ...



The age old "stop or pass thru" issue  

On the deer you shot in the chest, did you recover the bullets and have photos of them?

  Barnes are designed to open reliably down to 1,000fps.  The Expander is devastating at ranges to 150yds and opens very rapidly, obviously because of the larger opening.  The TMZ/T-EZ bullets also expand reliably and in production rifles, I shoot nothing but the TMZ 250gr.

It can and will be argued the difference between a bullet stopping in an animal or passing thru.  Many debates start with, "What about body armor?  The bullet expends all of its energy without passing thru and the soldier doesn't die but, if the bullet passed thru, the soldier would die?"  Pretty hard to debate that.  However the bullet isn't stopping on the exterior of an animal.  So then the debate boils down between energy transfer and hydrostatic shock.  Stopping power isn't necessarily caused by the force of the bullet, but the bullets damaging effects to vital organs.  High speed ballistics testing on gelatin shows how the hydrostatic shock is sent throughout the gelatin, the same as inside an animal.  I'm of the belief that if the bullet passes completely thru, it caused that shock from entrance to exit.  It also leaves two holes for blood loss vs just a single hole.

Here's an example of great hydrostatic shock: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-xOHEKLobQ

I shoot the muzz like a mad man and have shot up to 4,000 rounds a year.  I've shot just about every bullet that's came down the pike, with some being very accurate but, known by some to have poor performance.  Myself, I stay away from a hunting bullet that has a high percentage of bad hunting reports.  When the Shockwave came out and although I was still shooting the Expanders, I tried them, the 250gr.  They shot very accurate, so I figured I'd give them a try that season.  Evening hunt, same blind, same location, out came a 160's+ buck into the field.  Ever so slightly quartering away shot, crosshairs on the opposite shoulder and sent the bullet.  Heard it hit the animal and thought that one would be taken back to the barn.  On the snow...... we found about 4 drops of blood and hair.  I knew that the bullet didn't pass thru.  With a million tracks, we couldn't find a single spot more.  I had three other guys at the farm hunting that night and not a drop past POI.  However, we did hear a truck start on the neighbors property and leave.  Come to find out, it made it across the fence into the neighbor's property, who had allowed someone to hunt.  The buck fell in front of his truck, he loaded it up and took off with it.   He wasn't allowed back on the neighbor's farm......

So........ the debate about complete energy transfer and hydrostatic shock will probably be debated forever.  The key to the harvest IMO, is to only take high percentage shots.  After that.. good luck 

There ain't nothing I love more than shoot'n the muzz.


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## Mtns2hunt (Jul 1, 2014)

I hope the XTP's work for you. However, it might help if you could find some time to practice shooting to improve bullet placement. 

Practicing from field positions after sighting in on the bench may be a big benefit as no bullet will perform its best with poor shot placement.

Hope you find a bullet that works for you. I too hate to lose a deer or any animal for that matter.


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