# Romans 12:3 -help in context-



## hobbs27 (Jun 8, 2014)

Romans 12:3
  For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.


 I've seen this argued that the context is about God giving us faith,or about believing but it appears to be more about charismatic gifts....maybe another context I am missing altogether, opinions appreciated.. thanks.


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## Day trip (Jun 8, 2014)

This in a nut shell is about team work and humility.  It is a call to be humble, to not be so high on yourself, or feel special because you may be good at one thing or your knowledge/ understanding may exceed others.  Christians are called to be a part of the team.  The grand purpose of this team is not to score points or defeat another team but to nurture and develop the Word of God so that all may benefit.  I like the saying "a fish judged on his ability to climb trees would be considered a failure".  Since we Christians and all mankind are part of this team, we should not be too proud because we are competent in our role.  If we think that our understanding or our charity or whatever characteristic we are discussing that we are successful in makes us better than another because they are not as good in this area then we have missed the point.  Think about baseball.  Do you judge a pitcher on his ability to hit? No!  You are thankful for the pitchers ability to get batters out.  Do you judge a shortstop on his ability to cover large areas of ground? Well kind of but not the same as you would judge an outfielder.  You are responsible for taking care of your role to the best of your ability and instead of judging others based on your responsibilities, you encourage them to fulfill their role based on their abilities and responsibilities.  Then instead of thinking that you are great because you're the clean up hitter with a high batting average and lots of home runs, know that you are simply doing your job to help the team.  Then you encourage others to do their best in their areas to help the team.  By going to practice every day, working hard and doing your job, you become a source of inspiration for others to do the same.  Not for others to train hard to be good at your "position" but to train hard to be good at their "positions".  No one can play every position by him self.  You need your "teammates" to get this job done right.  Some positions may be perceived as more glorious to mankind but let the best pitcher ever have a ball hit into the outfield with no one there to get the ball,  he will not win that game.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 8, 2014)

Day trip said:


> This in a nut shell is about team work and humility.  It is a call to be humble, to not be so high on yourself, or feel special because you may be good at one thing or your knowledge/ understanding may exceed others.  Christians are called to be a part of the team.  The grand purpose of this team is not to score points or defeat another team but to nurture and develop the Word of God so that all may benefit.  I like the saying "a fish judged on his ability to climb trees would be considered a failure".  Since we Christians and all mankind are part of this team, we should not be too proud because we are competent in our role.  If we think that our understanding or our charity or whatever characteristic we are discussing that we are successful in makes us better than another because they are not as good in this area then we have missed the point.  Think about baseball.  Do you judge a pitcher on his ability to hit? No!  You are thankful for the pitchers ability to get batters out.  Do you judge a shortstop on his ability to cover large areas of ground? Well kind of but not the same as you would judge an outfielder.  You are responsible for taking care of your role to the best of your ability and instead of judging others based on your responsibilities, you encourage them to fulfill their role based on their abilities and responsibilities.  Then instead of thinking that you are great because you're the clean up hitter with a high batting average and lots of home runs, know that you are simply doing your job to help the team.  Then you encourage others to do their best in their areas to help the team.  By going to practice every day, working hard and doing your job, you become a source of inspiration for others to do the same.  Not for others to train hard to be good at your "position" but to train hard to be good at their "positions".  No one can play every position by him self.  You need your "teammates" to get this job done right.  Some positions may be perceived as more glorious to mankind but let the best pitcher ever have a ball hit into the outfield with no one there to get the ball,  he will not win that game.




"Paragraphs!  Paragraphs!  My kingdom for paragraphs!"

-- Richard III


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## Day trip (Jun 8, 2014)

Sorry, it was supposed to be a quick reply.  Got carried away, I'll do better.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 8, 2014)

So if a Calvanist says this verse proves God gives us faith...that person will be reading the verse out of context?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 9, 2014)

When Jesus healed a lame person and would then say "get up and walk," when did the healing take place?
Was it before the person got up or when the person had the faith to get up? 
Was the given measure the spark needed to get one's on faith energized? If Jesus healed the man, did the patient/man need faith to walk? Where did this faith come from?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 9, 2014)

Corinthians 12:8-9
8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 

In comparison to Romans 12:3 where the measure is given to each and everyone, in Corinthians 12:8-9, one is given knowledge and another is given faith.

I agree with Day trip the lesson is on pride and humility.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 9, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> So if a Calvanist says this verse proves God gives us faith...that person will be reading the verse out of context?


Who is originator of faith? Who sustains it?


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## Day trip (Jun 9, 2014)

I don't think you can take one sentence and neglect the context in which it was written.  Therefore, that's what I was writing about earlier.  However, does God give us faith?  Of course, name one thing you have that God hasn't given you.  Out if context, I can see where someone may excuse themself from the banquet because they claim that they have not been given enough faith.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 9, 2014)

Faith comes from God; belief, trust, & hope come from the individual. We can perfect the faith given through Jesus.

I guess it would be wrong to tell a person, "you don't have enough faith."


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## gemcgrew (Jun 9, 2014)

Day trip said:


> I don't think you can take one sentence and neglect the context in which it was written.


Agreed.


Day trip said:


> However, does God give us faith?  Of course, name one thing you have that God hasn't given you.


Case closed.


Day trip said:


> Out if context, I can see where someone may excuse themself from the banquet because they claim that they have not been given enough faith.


Within context, I believe that Paul was addressing the issue of pride among believers.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 9, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Faith comes from God, belief, trust, & hope come from the individual.


You are in opposition to Paul. "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake".



Artfuldodger said:


> We can perfect the faith given through Jesus.


You are not as confident as Paul in "that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 9, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Within context, I believe that Paul was addressing the issue of pride among believers.



So ...To say we have mustered up enough faith is to be prideful? If so,  is this the context of this verse ; (claiming faith comes from us and not God is boastful) ? 

Thanks for the input guys you're all a big help as I haven't had time lately to do the necessary studies on this.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 9, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> You are in opposition to Paul. "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake".
> 
> 
> You are not as confident as Paul in "that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"?



Jesus said "O ye of little faith." Strange he's asking me to have something that comes from him. Was the lame man healed by his faith or not?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 9, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> You are in opposition to Paul. "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake".
> 
> 
> You are not as confident as Paul in "that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"?



I can't help it, I was raised a Protestant Baptist. I'm learning I now have nothing to protest.


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## 04ctd (Jun 9, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Within context, I believe that Paul was addressing the issue of pride among believers.



yes, having moved a lot thru the years, you see a lot of churches that are "owned" by a group of people:  the deacons, a certain family, patriarchs, or people who actually built it.

Humans have a desperate need to be "in charge" or "in control" and gain thier self-worth by being in those positions.

when that happens in a church, it can really tear things up.

our church policy states deacons can only serve ~5 years, and most other positions only 3 years, before they rotate out.


we just need to be humble & love each other.
if we focused on God, instead of each other, we might get something right...


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## Ronnie T (Jun 9, 2014)

The subject of chapter 12 is not "faith", but sacrificial living(when a strong slant on humility).  Giving ourselves to God.

12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function


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## gemcgrew (Jun 9, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus said "O ye of little faith." Strange he's asking me to have something that comes from him.


I don't see Jesus asking anything there. Isn't "little" a measure?



Artfuldodger said:


> Was the lame man healed by his faith or not?


No, he was healed by Jesus.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 9, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I can't help it, I was raised a Protestant Baptist. I'm learning I now have nothing to protest.


From 5 yrs ago...


			
				gemcgrew said:
			
		

> I am not Protestant or Catholic. I am Baptist.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 9, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> So ...To say we have mustered up enough faith is to be prideful? If so,  is this the context of this verse ; (claiming faith comes from us and not God is boastful) ?


I do not see that in the context.


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## Day trip (Jun 9, 2014)

No, he was healed by Jesus.[/QUOTE]

Luke 8:48. Jesus said to her, "Daughter, it is your faith that has cured you.  Now go in peace. 

Matthew 8:13. To the centurion Jesus said, "Go home, it shall be done because you trusted." That very moment the boy got better.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 9, 2014)

Day trip said:


> Luke 8:48. Jesus said to her, "Daughter, it is your faith that has cured you.  Now go in peace.
> 
> Matthew 8:13. To the centurion Jesus said, "Go home, it shall be done because you trusted." That very moment the boy got better.


Which one is the lame man? The daughter or the centurion? Or neither?


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## Day trip (Jun 9, 2014)

So hemorrhage and dieing can be healed by faith but lameness cannot.  Got it.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 9, 2014)

Day trip said:


> So hemorrhage and dieing can be healed by faith but lameness cannot.  Got it.


Where did I say this? I will not attempt to rob Jesus of his healing the lame man. I do not call the lame man a liar.
"The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole."


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## Dr. Strangelove (Jun 9, 2014)

Don't think more or less of others because they have more or less faith than yourself?

A pretty good way to live, I believe.  It's the way I try to live.


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## Day trip (Jun 9, 2014)

The point is that you cannot separate Jesus healing a person versus a person being healed by faith.  Faith in what?  In Jesus! It is all one in the same.  I think I'm missing your point, help me see it.

Mark 6:5  He could work no miracles there, apart from curing a few who were sick by laying hands on them, so much did their lack of faith distress him.

Is this what you mean?


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## gemcgrew (Jun 9, 2014)

Day trip said:


> The point is that you cannot separate Jesus healing a person versus a person being healed by faith.  Faith in what?  In Jesus! It is all one in the same.  I think I'm missing your point, help me see it.
> 
> Mark 6:5  He could work no miracles there, apart from curing a few who were sick by laying hands on them, so much did their lack of faith distress him.
> 
> Is this what you mean?



I answered Art's question regarding the lame man. You took my answer and applied it to the daughter and the centurion. If you do not see what you did, I am not sure that I can help you see anything.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 9, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I answered Art's question regarding the lame man. You took my answer and applied it to the daughter and the centurion. If you do not see what you did, I am not sure that I can help you see anything.



In Day trip's defense he was just using the daughter & centurion as two more examples of faith. What is the difference between those two examples and the lame man? Why was Day trip's application wrong?

How can our faith be a requirement if given from God? Not even part of the OP as we have mentioned, just puzzling.


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## Day trip (Jun 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> In Day trip's defense he was just using the daughter & centurion as two more examples of faith. What is the difference between those two examples and the lame man? Why was Day trip's application wrong?
> 
> How can our faith be a requirement if given from God? Not even part of the OP as we have mentioned, just puzzling.



Consider your faith as a sword, given to you as a gift to help you in a great battle.  The battle is against the prince of the world, Satan.  Although it is by your side, it does you no good without using it.  Without using it, you will lose the battle.  If you use it a little, you will be clumsy, ineffective but still better off than if stays in it's scabbard.  The more you practice with it, the more you learn about it, then the more effective and powerful warrior you will become.  The requirement, or the expectation is that the ones who use their faith, who practice it and make it a natural part of their lives, they will prevail. 
 We all have that faith, that sword, and at any point in our lives we may pull it out.  At any point, anyone can do devastating damage with faith, even if unskilled in its use.  Some are taught to use that sword from the day they were born.  To some it can become such a common place item that we put it down and allow it to collect dust.  Others are inspired to use the sword of faith from a divine revelation.   Atheist who become Christians.  But ultimately, to get back to the OP, we don't judge others based on how they handle their faith, their sword. We don't glorify ourselves in our ability to handle our faith, our sword. Some are appointed the trivial tasks of small skirmishes, others are appointed the task of great battles but we are all important in our roles.  At any point, anyone may pull their sword and use it with more skill, power and grace than you could have imagined.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 10, 2014)

Day trip. I would agree that sword can be used to fight off demons, but Satan lost his/her battle to Jesus.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> In Day trip's defense he was just using the daughter & centurion as two more examples of faith. What is the difference between those two examples and the lame man? Why was Day trip's application wrong?


Art, you are doing the same thing. It can not be "two more examples of faith" unless you can show me that the lame man's faith healed him. The lame man himself said that Jesus healed him. But you can't show it and that is why you run to the centurion and the daughter, as if that invalidates my answer.


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## Day trip (Jun 10, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Day trip. I would agree that sword can be used to fight off demons, but Satan lost his/her battle to Jesus.



I almost didn't put in the line about satan.  It is unnecessary for my point but the battle metaphor needed an opponent.  Faith in Jesus prepares us for all of our battles, internal and external.


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## Israel (Jun 11, 2014)

We can speak of another daughter. 
But then, more discussions.
Talitha cumi.
Is Jesus "the man" that has faith, and specifically if it further need be defined, in the very essential goodness of God?

When it pleased God to reveal his son in me.
Are we "that one?"
Or do we recognize now we are all "of one"...no separation?
How far we walk in that unity has been purposed.
May we walk to the end of that faith?


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## gordon 2 (Jun 11, 2014)

Israel said:


> We can speak of another daughter.
> But then, more discussions.
> Talitha cumi.
> Is Jesus "the man" that has faith, and specifically if it further need be defined, in the very essential goodness of God?
> ...



These are possibly good questions. Whenever faith meets works be they sacrificial or simply in relationship; be they the works of God as He ministers to man or the works of man as he cleaves and nears himself to God --- the "by faith and not works" crowd will be frantic as fish shocked for being dumped into foreign waters as it were...

Shocked I say... like skin shocked to goose bump by emotions and spirits that tug back to the conformity of the world. 

It is a grand relationship to hear or even read that this one or that one  was healed or saved by faith. That to be physically healed or to be saved is the same thing--- being not different to God for faith or trust in loving relationship. It takes a mighty work in faith to sense it perhaps, this by itself, and added to it, the mightier sacrifice we all must accomplish individual and as christian communities to live it.

Perhaps we live in  a kind of flood days. The waters of baptism sends us out to help build the arks and communities we and others can step onto, or it sends us to judgement by our building nothing for ourselves and others. We just drown in spiritual rabbit holes, or in selfish and stimulating spiritual self discovery, as per the type which in the ancient days had not relationship to God at all, a people having no clue as to what all the fuss is about in good and evil being compared to faith and works--laughing at Noah's ridiculous mindset, the strange will pushing him to work,--- to fit ribs to his ridiculous ship.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 11, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Art, you are doing the same thing. It can not be "two more examples of faith" unless you can show me that the lame man's faith healed him. The lame man himself said that Jesus healed him. But you can't show it and that is why you run to the centurion and the daughter, as if that invalidates my answer.




 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

When an individual excepts God's call to believe Jesus died for him, what must this person do? Doesn't believing or trusting in Jesus require faith? 
I guess one could say our gift of faith from God is what makes one believe & trust his son died for us. 
There truly is no reason to witness to a person to have faith in Jesus. Without this free gift of faith from God that person will never believe.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 11, 2014)

Interesting sermon on "Faith does not save you" by John Crowder. 

What reformer Martin Luther referred to as the "idol of the will" is still worshiped throughout Christendom - the idea that your willpower, choice or human decision is what gets you into Heaven. Faith doesn't "make it happen." Faith simply realizes it has already happened. You were saved by Grace - a free gift - and faith (trust) is simply the conduit through which we enjoy that salvation gift. If anyone's faith saves us, it is not our own - but rather the very faith of Christ Himself!


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 11, 2014)

Day trip said:


> Consider your faith as a sword, given to you as a gift to help you in a great battle.  The battle is against the prince of the world, Satan.  Although it is by your side, it does you no good without using it.  Without using it, you will lose the battle.  If you use it a little, you will be clumsy, ineffective but still better off than if stays in it's scabbard.  The more you practice with it, the more you learn about it, then the more effective and powerful warrior you will become.  The requirement, or the expectation is that the ones who use their faith, who practice it and make it a natural part of their lives, they will prevail.
> We all have that faith, that sword, and at any point in our lives we may pull it out.  At any point, anyone can do devastating damage with faith, even if unskilled in its use.  Some are taught to use that sword from the day they were born.  To some it can become such a common place item that we put it down and allow it to collect dust.  Others are inspired to use the sword of faith from a divine revelation.   Atheist who become Christians.  But ultimately, to get back to the OP, we don't judge others based on how they handle their faith, their sword. We don't glorify ourselves in our ability to handle our faith, our sword. Some are appointed the trivial tasks of small skirmishes, others are appointed the task of great battles but we are all important in our roles.  At any point, anyone may pull their sword and use it with more skill, power and grace than you could have imagined.



Interesting analogy and I like it but if God never gives someone the sword of faith, then it is a useless story.
Once acquiring this sword, your story is wonderful!


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## gemcgrew (Jun 11, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Doesn't believing or trusting in Jesus require faith?


What is the sum total of belief, trust and faith? Where can we find the fullness of it?


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## gordon 2 (Jun 11, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
> 
> When an individual excepts God's call to believe Jesus died for him, what must this person do? Doesn't believing or trusting in Jesus require faith?
> I guess one could say our gift of faith from God is what makes one believe & trust his son died for us.
> There truly is no reason to witness to a person to have faith in Jesus. Without this free gift of faith from God that person will never believe.



By grace we are saved through faith. So grace is the gift to us, not faith. Faith is the work or the gift of man to God and grace is the gift of God to man? By grace we are saved...it is a predestined gift to  all... however it is a gift picked up by the faithful, the believers,  the workers of righteousness not because of what this promises for themselves, but because of God's promises for all .


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## gordon 2 (Jun 11, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> What is the sum total of belief, trust and faith? Where can we find the fullness of it?



Prayer? Visits? The holy? The saintly? Visiting the lonely? Caring for the infirm? Respecting prisoners? Washing before going to bed? Sharing your smile with a stranger? Sharing your resources with the rich...


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 11, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> What is the sum total of belief, trust and faith? Where can we find the fullness of it?



God's grace of his Son dying on the cross.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 11, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> By grace we are saved through faith. So grace is the gift to us, not faith. Faith is the work or the gift of man to God and grace is the gift of God to man? By grace we are saved...it is a predestined gift to  all... however it is a gift picked up by the faithful, the believers,  the workers of righteousness not because of what this promises for themselves, but because of God's promises for all .



8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

So I was interpreting this verse wrong? The gift is grace through my faith? "that not of yourselves" points to grace and not faith?

Again though it starts sounding like something "I" must do if I must have faith or I must repent or I must be baptized or I must do anything. Either I'm saved by God's grace or I'm not.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 11, 2014)

God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God 

God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.

(It appears that I can't take any credit whatsoever in my salvation. I had nothing to do with it. It didn't come from me or anything I did.)


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## gordon 2 (Jun 11, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
> 
> So I was interpreting this verse wrong? The gift is grace through my faith? "that not of yourselves" points to grace and not faith?
> 
> Again though it starts sounding like something "I" must do if I must have faith or I must repent or I must be baptized or I must do anything. Either I'm saved by God's grace or I'm not.



OK. If I was a horse and my master had a manger of oats for me some distance away to where I could see it but not reach it for some fear in the way....how long would I go hungry? Either I would conquer my fear, and trust that my master had made the way safe or I waste away.

Now if those oats were the grace of God, how full of them are you right now?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 11, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> OK. If I was a horse and my master had a manger of oats for me some distance away to where I could see it but not reach it for some fear in the way....how long would I go hungry? Either I would conquer my fear, and trust that my master had made the way safe or I waste away.
> 
> Now if those oats were the grace of God, how full of them are you right now?



I don't think that is how God's grace works. It didn't work that way for Paul. God crammed those oats down his throat.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 11, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't think that is how God's grace works. It didn't work that way for Paul. God crammed those oats down his throat.



I don't know why or how you can say that? Paul had to agree to the laying of the hands on himself? He had to say "Yes". I don't know that God ever forced  someone to serve him, against their own will.???? Explain? How was grace crammed down Paul's throat?

If the cross is for everyone for the grace of God, but not all pick it up, not all choosing redemption and salvation, then salvation surely requires one's consent and a "doing" what our God says to do. ????Or am I still in left field here?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 11, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> I don't know why or how you can say that? Paul had to agree to the laying of the hands on himself? He had to say "Yes". I don't know that God ever forced  someone to serve him, against their own will.???? Explain? How was grace crammed down Paul's throat?
> 
> If the cross is for everyone for the grace of God, but not all pick it up, not all choosing redemption and salvation, then salvation surely requires one's consent and a "doing" what our God says to do. ????Or am I still in left field here?



Yeah I might have come on a little strong with forced grace instead of divine assistance. Maybe Paul was hard headed and needed tough divine assistance.
Back to "faith" though is any of it granted by divine assistance? Do  I need God to assist me by giving me the faith to believe?


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## gordon 2 (Jun 11, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yeah I might have come on a little strong with forced grace instead of divine assistance. Maybe Paul was hard headed and needed tough divine assistance.
> Back to "faith" though is any of it granted by divine assistance? Do  I need God to assist me by giving me the faith to believe?



We ask for help all the time. God's relationship with us is plain. Our relationship with Him is a bit of a challenge still, even today, even with redemption, even with the born again, even with those in Christ. So you can ask God to help you with faith--which is what we do all the time when we pray for others as well as ourselves. I don't think faith is granted, it is something we grow up with in Christ... from yet carnal christian to degrees of maturity....


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## Day trip (Jun 11, 2014)

Through Christ's life and through Christ's death, we have been given the potential to succeed.  The Grace given us is the ability to know God, the ability to become son's of God despite the fact that we cannot quite understand what that means.  It is an intuition.  Like a dream we awaken from, so clear and fresh in our minds but the second you try to describe it, the picture starts to fade away and you are left grasping smoke.  We cannot quantitate God.  The harder we try, the less clear He becomes. 

So instead of following laws and rules as a duty, we follow Christ's example.  Doing your duty is noble but it does not bring you to acting intuitively as a disciple of Christ. 

As we start out humble, learning how to love others, forgive, absorb injury and return kindness, we start to see the tiniest idea of what it means to become a member of the body if Christ.  If we stop there, thinking we've got it, we fail.  We must remain humble, practicing every day the simple principles of Christ's life until we begin to change.  We change because the simple daily acts of love become instinctive, natural.  We adore God, imitating him until we no longer do what is right because it is right but instead, we do what is right because that is now your natural inclination.  That is who you are.  

Does God give us faith to help us along our journey?  Yes but not passively.  At least not for everyone.  The potential for faith is inside everybody.  Blessed are those who believe without seeing!  Truly they are blessed, they do not have to find out the hard way that the  principles of Jesus work under any circumstance.  For the doubting Thomas's it just requires more effort.  Jesus did not condemn Thomas for doubting. God offers you a chance to grow in your faith by presenting you with challenges that allow you to use that faith.  For the thick headed like me it requires an active process of living, experiencing life, discerning what is truth and what is not. Once we start accumulating experiences with our simple active processes of applying the teaching of Christ, we come to understand that by following Christ, under any circumstance, we will be ok.  Maybe not as you would have it but as God would have it.  The faith we have grows because we know that if our actions worked in previous encounters, we can confidently apply the same principles to future encounters and we will still be ok.  

God became man so that men could become like God.  It is an active process.  We don't sit back passively thinking the work has been done and we can just cruise through life.  We follow the role model of Jesus, pretending to be something we are not until we change and eventually we become what we are imitating.  When we are challenged and our automatic response is to act as Jesus did, then we are making progress.  Since there cannot be a rule for every possible scenario that we encounter, we apply the same principles of love and understanding to every encounter and despite the outcome, we know beyond all doubt that we have acted as Christ and are ok with the results.  Faith grows as our challenges come at us.  When you are threatened, accused, or attacked do you rely on your flesh to fight back and defend your honor or do you continue to apply the principles you are learning from Christ?  Throughout our lives, God challenges you to help you grow in faith.  Christ died on the cross with all the power of the Almighty unused in his pocket because he was doing what was right, regardless of the consequences.  Do we have the faith to do the same?  That is our goal.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 11, 2014)

My faith is a gift from God. My natural instinct is to doubt, and distrust. It is from personal experiences with God that my faith has grown.

 One thing I know and will never again doubt is that there is a God, and He is an awesome God. He blesses me in reading of the scriptures and prayer for understanding. He has blessed me for praising the name of His son Jesus, therefore only because I know there is a God do I know the scriptures(Holy Bible) is an accurate account and not vice versa. 

  Did God give me that portion of faith in the beginning that through it I may be saved by grace?   I think so....I think He stood at the door and knocked, and with a broken and contrite heart I opened the door and let Him in. 
 My opening the door was only a work of the faith in which He gave me...I'm just an unworthy servant.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 11, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I think He stood at the door and knocked


But can you show this from Scripture, as relating to an individual? Do you apply it to Lydia?
"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."


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## hobbs27 (Jun 11, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> But can you show this from Scripture, as relating to an individual? Do you apply it to Lydia?
> "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."



She did attend unto the things which were spoke..what does that mean exactly?

 I know you know the scripture but for those that dont, Revelation 3: _20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”_

 I think this is in reference to salvation, it doesnt specifically say it is, but if not what? If Jesus comes into us and dines...what exactly would that mean, if not salvation?


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## Israel (Jun 11, 2014)

For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Maybe there's nothing a man struggles harder against than looking stupid.
Till he sees the Lord, as a man willing to wait to be shown things.
Funny how faith and patience both never made him look stupid, nor act like he knew it all.
Just as funny how our fight against looking a certain way is only won by not giving in to the fight to be anything at all.


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## Day trip (Jun 11, 2014)

Israel said:


> For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
> 
> Maybe there's nothing a man struggles harder against than looking stupid.
> Till he sees the Lord, as a man willing to wait to be shown things.
> ...



This is beautiful! 
On the other hand, I hope we can risk looking stupid in this forum with no ill long term affects.  I personally present my ideas as a student turning in an essay of ideas for review.  I love the criticism.  I love how others reveal things that I would have never seen.  Israel is spot on about life but let's keep challenging each other here.


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## Israel (Jun 12, 2014)

Day trip said:


> This is beautiful!
> On the other hand, I hope we can risk looking stupid in this forum with no ill long term affects.  I personally present my ideas as a student turning in an essay of ideas for review.  I love the criticism.  I love how others reveal things that I would have never seen.  Israel is spot on about life but let's keep challenging each other here.


amen!
we are free.
Free to wrestle, exchange, enquire in the house of the Lord (whose house we are), seek in one another, ask of one another ("who told you this?", he said, "say this of yourself?") knock...in our pursuit of the Lord.
Perhaps we have all heard the "knock against"...from outside, as in "see, they can't even agree amongst themselves! there are 40,000, 4 million, ten billion (pick a number) denominations"...never knowing that what men assume as a monolithic agreement outside of Christ will stand when it's confused foundations are revealed. But, we know it doesn't.
Jesus knows this testing of being in the place of "unknowing"...of waiting to see, of laboring to discover...the labor of confronting the things that combat faith and patience "Hey, if you need to know, just throw yourself off this temple..."

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that, when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is, and every man that has this hope in him, purifies himself, even as he is pure".

Amen. God forbid any forbidding as "we" work out, what has been worked in.


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## 04ctd (Jun 12, 2014)

buddy sends out devotions, I like this one, because everyone wants to be in the SPOTLIGHT and in CONTROL, POWER, and AUTHORITY in the church. But it cant be like that.  Second Fiddle is where some of us do our best work.  Just get in, fit in, and work hard for God



ROPE HOLDERS



Acts 9: 22 - 25  "But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.  23   And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:   24   But their laying await was known of Saul. And they watched the gates day and night to kill him.   25  Then the disciples took him by night, and let him down by the wall in a basket."

    How many Christians today only do things for the Lord and the Church when others are looking, just to look glorious in others eyes. Here in the Book of Acts, we find some ordinary godly Christians, the Bible calls them "disciples," that are helping the man of GOD. WOW, today there are very few that will HOLD THE ROPE for the man of GOD unless there is something in it for them. 

     The Jews wanted to kill Paul and these disciples knew it! So, they took their place on the ROPE, Paul climbed in the basket and those UN-NAMED disciples, those disciples that did not want any glory for themselves let Paul down by the wall. Paul was then able to go and win many souls to Christ because of those ROPE HOLDERS. 

     You know that I am telling the truth. Today, people are discussed, aggravated, just downright hating the position of a ROPE HOLDER! I wish rope holders of today had the understanding that those rope holders for Paul had. You see, it does not matter WHO IS IN THE BASKET, WE ALL WIN! It's not about who is holding the microphone, it's not about WHO is the leader, what matters is that JESUS CHRIST IS LIFTED UP! That is what the saints of old KNEW! Sure, we all know Paul, Peter, John, but did you know this, _*they did not do anything by themselves. There were MANY behind the scenes*_, many that took the Apostles food when they had no food. So the next time you get a chance to be a ROPE HOLDER, DO IT WITH A SMILE, with joy in your heart!


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