# Reality Check!!!



## christianhunter (Aug 27, 2011)

The 7 page Divorce thread,and the David Berkowitz thread,along with feelings I have had for a while now.Have led me to ponder some things.There are,and have been a lot of threads written,and discussed.Some folks get on here and are very quick to judge.I have 4 people on here that I actually talk to on the phone.Believe me the conversations are different than the chats on here.

They are conversations of the reality of the struggle,we have in our Christian walk.I have temptations in my life,almost daily.I have openly confessed some of them on here.If I fail or fall,I would not give it a second thought about posting it here,and asking for prayer support.Under sensitive circumstances,I have accountability partners,I have chosen in the past.They know who they are by the PM's they were sent.

What I do not understand is those few,who seem to think they know all,like the friends of JOB.Job was the righteous man,not his friends.The friends did not feel the pain and anguish that Job felt.They were quick to tell him what to do though, weren't they?
I along with several others,have gotten on here testifying of my short comings and sins.There are others,who I get the impression,think they have very little sin in their life.

After all of that,this is my conviction.It is easy to give a testimony.It is easy to give a praise report.It is easy to pray for someone.Apparently for some,it is easy to judge.How easy is it to publically admit,before GOD and man,the temptations we struggle with?


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## christianhunter (Aug 27, 2011)

Before GOD,and THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.I struggle with a temper,and lust of the flesh.Admittedly,I'm not going to expect many.This is going to take honesty and humility.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 28, 2011)

I think I spend most of the day praying, short little prayers all day, and in between I'm rebuking the devil and his little demons. Constantly I'm under fire, seems like.

I pray for God to take this or that away, all day.
I can't quit cussin', that's one thing. I only use a few choice words when I get ticked off, which I guess is somewhat of an anger issue. 

I worked in customer service for many years which can be very abusive, especially at bellsouth where nobody is calling in to tell you how great bellsouth is, if you get my drift. I worked there over 30 yrs and I'm sick to death of mean, hateful people and when somebody starts gossiping or doggin' somebody out I've got to 'jump', especially when it comes to kids and teens. I'd rather somebody pop somebodys behind than to belittle or talk hateful or down to them.  And I know exactly how kids can be sometimes, but they are defenseless against harsh words. And if folks don't think it's my business well keep your business out of my hearing range.

See now that's an attitude I'd like to lose. I should ask them if they'd like some prayer or something.


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## Israel (Aug 28, 2011)

I am easily given to finding excuse for my own behavior, but not so generous with grace when I imagine someone else has driven into a ditch.


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## BT Charlie (Aug 28, 2011)

In the brief time I've been visiting here, I've enjoyed many different folks' perspectives.  I find myself making it a point to check out posts from particular people, CH, Mtnwoman and Israel among them.

Not sure why this thread has caused me some angst, but it has.

Perhaps it is my belief that God already knows the blackness of my own heart, the depths of depraved treachery of which it is capable.


Or maybe it's this.  If I say I'm a judgmental hypocrite, it is true so far as it goes.   It highlights self awareness of the pharisee in me. But it leaves out mean-spirited, lustful, envious, covetous and murderously angry old goat, among a long long list of other sins for which Christ gave his life in opportunity of redemption.   I confess to even lacking self awareness of many many sins and foibles contrary to God's perfect presence as well.  (Filleted open, is any of us an attractive guest to share with the rest of the family?)

So any acknowledgement of self-awareness of a "top 10 list" of "worst" sins that I'm actually "struggling" to part company with  through reliance upon the Holy Spirit, death to self and focus on Christ's work on the cross is still incomplete and potentially self-deceiving, right?  There's always "And you forgot this nasty little aspect of your human heart (insert).


If out of respect for CH's challenge and honesty I need to pluck one out of my personal cesspool to demonstrate that I can be tough (I don't find anything easy about testimony or encouragement, left to my flesh, by the way) then let me begin with the physical symptoms.  My pupils dilate upon seeing it.  My pulse picks up, kind of signaling a fight or flight angst that pours over me.  I feel a tense pull right under my sternum, where my diaphragm begins to labor a little.  I get to feeling hot, uncomfortable.  I become obsessed with the thought of having, no dominating ... . 

Flee like a gazelle?  I wish.  If I've recognized the early signs in this progression of symptoms, I can lift my eyes to heaven and lean into the spirit, breaking the tractor-beam pulling me down.  But if I've laid there in my bed with my iPad, staring, obsessing, my mind has left no room for human judgment to ask "is the next step going to lead me closer to Christ, my Lord and Savior?" I become this heated, obsessed maniac.

And that's what I go through simply looking at CH's avatar! That giant whitetail, all those points, the spread, the mass, his stuffed lifeless head on my living room wall with some of his cousins .... Mine, mine, mine!


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## mtnwoman (Aug 28, 2011)

Israel said:


> I am easily given to finding excuse for my own behavior, but not so generous with grace when I imagine someone else has driven into a ditch.



Man, ain't that the truth!

Lord, create in me a clean heart.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 28, 2011)

That is a purdy buck!!


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## huntmore (Aug 28, 2011)

As a Catholic that goes to confession I can tell you this. Looking into another mans eyes and telling him all you sins isn't easy. I can also say that when it is over I feel like a great weight is lifted off my shoulders.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 29, 2011)

huntmore said:


> As a Catholic that goes to confession I can tell you this. Looking into another mans eyes and telling him all you sins isn't easy. I can also say that when it is over I feel like a great weight is lifted off my shoulders.



I'm sure that must be difficult....not sure I could do it.

I just stand in my kitchen and look up and say Jesus, you know my sins, please forgive me, I am not worthy and you know how rotten I am and unworthy of the cross. Please create in me a clean heart.

I am ashamed and feel like such a dirty dog in front of my saviour....Lord help me to change. I also feel a burden lifted.


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## gtparts (Aug 29, 2011)

Not sure I could wait. I spend far too much time failing God, not to confess as soon and where the Holy Spirit brings it to mind. Exactly like Adam and Eve, God knows where I am and what I have done, continuously. When I see how I have disappointed Him, well, it is then time to hit my knees and confess, especially since He has already taken the punishment for me and forgiven me through the same.

I was bought with a terrible price, yet He lives. To whom do I owe my confession but my Master?


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## formula1 (Aug 29, 2011)

*Re:*

I can easily give Gods grace to anyone who needs or wants it, yet I struggle in trusting God's grace for myself.  I want to somehow try to earn the un-earnable,  It is very difficult for me to rest in the goodness of God's tender mercy and trust Him without trying to do it myself.  The daily struggles I face are directly related to this issue and God is forcing me to learn to trust Him completely.

So I am in the middle of a struggle, but still trying to count it all joy!


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## Ronnie T (Aug 29, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> The 7 page Divorce thread,and the David Berkowitz thread,along with feelings I have had for a while now.Have led me to ponder some things.There are,and have been a lot of threads written,and discussed.Some folks get on here and are very quick to judge.I have 4 people on here that I actually talk to on the phone.Believe me the conversations are different than the chats on here.
> 
> They are conversations of the reality of the struggle,we have in our Christian walk.I have temptations in my life,almost daily.I have openly confessed some of them on here.If I fail or fall,I would not give it a second thought about posting it here,and asking for prayer support.Under sensitive circumstances,I have accountability partners,I have chosen in the past.They know who they are by the PM's they were sent.
> 
> ...



I think we all move into and out of that group containing the judgemental, condemning christian(small letter).
Some don't mean to be counted in that group, so they aren't there for very long at a time.  But others have given their lives, not to Jesus, but to that group.  And that's just the way it is.
Ideally, and scripturally, the answer is to ignore them and move away from them.

*Now, the subject of confessing our sins and temptations to others:  As others will attest, it's especially difficult when you're a pastor and minister for Christ.  A couple of decades ago I didn't have any sins or temptations that needed to be confessed (if you know what I mean).  Being perfect, ya know!  
Now I try (I said try) to never speak of another person's sin without mentioning my own sin.
My greatest sin today is thinking I've already done enough in my life.  That I've been beaten up enough by Christians.  That I've fought against the unwilling and I shouldn't have to do it anymore.  
In my heart I know it's not enough.  Even in my mind I know it isn't enough.  I preach the Gospel as much for myself as for anyone else.  I study for me first, then for others.  
Oh, wait!  It isn't "me" and "I".  It's my heavenly Father and my Lord Jesus.  There's my sin.


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## huntmore (Aug 29, 2011)

If Jesus was standing in front of you in the flesh do you think you could confess to him? I find it hard to beleave that a person can't confess to a person but could confess to God.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 29, 2011)

huntmore said:


> If Jesus was standing in front of you in the flesh do you think you could confess to him? I find it hard to beleave that a person can't confess to a person but could confess to God.



God already knows our sins....our confession to Him is admitting our wrong doing and trusting in the fact that His death and resurrection covers the penalty for our sin.



In answering the OP, I know I've done plenty wrong and am far from perfect.  However, the I know at least one of the two threads has nothing to do with salvation/justification.  The only judgement that I've seen in the thread is from folks questioning the salvation of the OP because of his stance on the eternity of marriage.

Can we not discuss divorce and it's affect on leadership within the church?  Does every religious discussion that debates the effect of sin get labeled "Judgemental?"


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## centerpin fan (Aug 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> The only judgement that I've seen in the thread is from folks questioning the salvation of the OP because of his stance on the eternity of marriage.
> 
> Can we not discuss divorce and it's affect on leadership within the church?  Does every religious discussion that debates the effect of sin get labeled "Judgemental?"



Yeah, I just haven't seen the judgement of others or people saying they have very little sin in their lives.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> God already knows our sins....our confession to Him is admitting our wrong doing and trusting in the fact that His death and resurrection covers the penalty for our sin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I suspect the biggest problem is that the greatest "judgers" in the church don't see themselves as judgers, so they deny deny deny, then turn the subject back in the other direction!


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## Ronnie T (Aug 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> God already knows our sins....our confession to Him is admitting our wrong doing and trusting in the fact that His death and resurrection covers the penalty for our sin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Some place in the Bible is says to "confess your sins to one another"  ..... let me see if I can find my Bible.


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## formula1 (Aug 29, 2011)

*Re:*

I think the scripture you are thinking of is this one:

James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

Another less known one might be(Context provided):

Acts 19
13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists undertook to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, "I adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul proclaims." 14 Seven sons of a Jewish high priest named Sceva were doing this. 15 But the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and Paul I recognize, but who are you?" 16 And the man in whom was the evil spirit leaped on them, mastered all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17And this became known to all the residents of Ephesus, both Jews and Greeks. And fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was extolled. 18 Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices. 19 And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted the value of them and found it came to fifty thousand pieces of silver. 20 So the word of the Lord continued to increase and prevail mightily.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 29, 2011)

For the record, I have talked with JB about that thread and we are good.  Neither of us took anything personally and we're fine.  I don't know of anybody else who even came close to being offended.

Shoot....I think that I took the brunt of that thread.  I knew it was coming so I don't complain.

Well....except for one comment.  I kind of complained about that.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 29, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> For the record, I have talked with JB about that thread and we are good.  Neither of us took anything personally and we're fine.  I don't know of anybody else who even came close to being offended.
> 
> Shoot....I think that I took the brunt of that thread.  I knew it was coming so I don't complain.
> 
> Well....except for one comment.  I kind of complained about that.



I don't believe this thread is specifically targeting the divorce thread.  I think he's speaking in general terms.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 29, 2011)

I was addressing RJ's comment that is not there anymore.  That's why I brought up the divorce thread.






Toughest two words in the english language are "I'm sorry"....aren't they folks?


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## rjcruiser (Aug 29, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I suspect the biggest problem is that the greatest "judgers" in the church don't see themselves as judgers, so they deny deny deny, then turn the subject back in the other direction!



Any specifics Ronnie?

Reason I ask is that I see a lot of generalization of people saying others are judging.

Threads about humility.  Threads about judging others.

People saying that it is going on.

I just don't see it.  CH has referenced the divorce thread.  I saw a lot of humility in how Huntinfool portrayed his case.  It was well thought out, had Biblical answers to the scriptures in question.  

Was it personal for some?  Yes.  Was it judgmental?  No.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 29, 2011)

I understand the point of what CH posted, and I agree.

But I think people need to understand something (at least from my perspective)...

If you ask me my opinion on something or if you put a question out there...I'm likely going to answer it if I've thought through that question and have a biblically based answer.

If it disagrees with your feelings or what you've been taught or with what you just want to believe, that's fine.  But understand that, if you ask, and you get an answer that doesn't sit well, it's not because you are being judged.  

Your question was answered by someone who happens to hold an opinion different than yours or an intepretation different than yours.  

So...I feel that marriage is meant to be permanent (just using that thread as an example).  You or someone you know is divorced.  Am I making a judgement on the kind of person you are, you salvation or even whether you're a spiffy dresser?  NO WAY!

I'm just telling you that, from my study and my understanding of the scriptures, God considers marriage permanent.  Am I of the opinion that you getting a divorce was against the will of God and so sinful?  You bet I do.  I also happen to believe that the thoughts I just had about the smokin' hot girl that just walked by my desk were sinful as well.....and equally so.  

I said this many times in that thread.  Grace covers all.  No judgement.  Correction?  Yes.  That's what we are called to do FOR each other...to our mutual benefit.  Judgement?  No.  Not in the eternal sense.  Correction?  Absolutely.  I can think of nothing more loving than a brother point another down the right path.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 29, 2011)

In other words....

Too many people wrongly hear "I disagree with you" as "You're going to Hades"


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## rjcruiser (Aug 29, 2011)

2 years ago...that was a problem.

Not so much these days.  I have to say, the Mods have done a good job of cleaning threads up in the past....taking out people who continually tell others they're headed to hades.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 29, 2011)

But you and I are still here man!


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## stringmusic (Aug 29, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I understand the point of what CH posted, and I agree.
> 
> But I think people need to understand something (at least from my perspective)...
> 
> ...





We are to be a light to this world (Mathew 5:14) Some people, and sadly including many Christians, need sunglasses.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 29, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> But you and I are still here man!



almost 10,000 posts strong too 

Now...if they'd count all the deleted ones, I'd be well over the mark


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## Ronnie T (Aug 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Any specifics Ronnie?
> 
> Reason I ask is that I see a lot of generalization of people saying others are judging.
> 
> ...



Sure, I'll give you at least one specific.
I grew up in a judgmental Christian society.  "Our way or the highway."  "Believe my way or burn in hel l"  And I believed most of it.

One of the catastrophes today is the church on one side of town judging the church on the other side of town.  Sometimes it's done in the 'letter to the editor' section of the local newspaper.
That very thing happened in the S. East U.S. a few years ago.  Within the same denomination.  It went on for several weeks.  One church judging the other.  What happened?  The church doing the judging fell apart, the accused church absorbed many of those who left.

The church has always had judges.  And, as I said earlier, all of us will act like judges from time to time.  We shouldn't.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 29, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Sure, I'll give you at least one specific.
> I grew up in a judgmental Christian society.  "Our way or the highway."  "Believe my way or burn in hel l"  And I believed most of it.
> 
> One of the catastrophes today is the church on one side of town judging the church on the other side of town.  Sometimes it's done in the 'letter to the editor' section of the local newspaper.
> ...



I gotcha...I guess I was referring to this forum.

The OP was referencing several threads within this forum....I just don't agree that we've got judgemental folks in here anymore.

At one time?  Sure did.  But it has been cleaned up for the most part.

I've been guilty of it before as well.  Remember one thread in particular...about 2-3 years ago.  Won't forget it...and have tried to learn from it.  Just wish others would give more specific details rather than generalizations and accusations with no link or quote.


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## huntmore (Aug 30, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> God already knows our sins....our confession to Him is admitting our wrong doing and trusting in the fact that His death and resurrection covers the penalty for our sin.
> 
> [
> 
> ...



Yes, I know God already knows our sins. I also know if you can't tell someone who your sins mean nothing to, you haven't got the guts to tell God to his face. It says in your Bible that we must confess our sins to one another. I believe references to those verses have been provided to you by others here.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 30, 2011)

> Yes, I know God already knows our sins. I also know if you can't tell someone who your sins mean nothing to, you haven't got the guts to tell God to his face. It says in your Bible that we must confess our sins to one another. I believe references to those verses have been provided to you by others here.



We are also called to bear one another's burdens and mourn with each other...

...but I don't walk down the street grabbing random people and telling them all the terrible things I've done in my life.

Believe me my man, 



> I also know if you can't tell someone who your sins mean nothing to, you haven't got the guts to tell God to his face.



...this might be the most grossly incorrect statement you've ever made in your life.  I've told God about some stuff that you will never know about.  

Why?  Because I don't know you...and therefore do not know that I can trust you with that knowledge.  People who know me deeply and initmately know those things.  But trust me bud...you ain't EVER gonna hear them unless you and I get REALLY close.

I know first hand what gossip and lies can do in a church.  Not all in a body are ready to be trusted.  

So no, it's not true that if you can't tell people you've never met what you've done, you don't have the guts to tell God.

My sins mean nothing to you...you're right.  They mean a heap of a lot to God.  So I'll keep on telling him and excluding you from the conversation...my guts intact.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 30, 2011)

huntmore said:


> Yes, I know God already knows our sins. I also know if you can't tell someone who your sins mean nothing to, you haven't got the guts to tell God to his face. It says in your Bible that we must confess our sins to one another. I believe references to those verses have been provided to you by others here.



Where did you get the idea that I said we aren't supposed to discuss our sin issues with others?    Don't think I said anything to that affect above.  Accountability is a big ticket item in one's spiritual life....I never said it wasn't.


And no....telling someone about my sins means nothing in regards to being able to confess my sins to God.  

When we realize what our sin does to our Heavenly Father...the pain it causes Him....the disappointment it causes Him to have....when we are truly broken over our own personal sin, that is when we will have true spiritual growth.


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## BT Charlie (Aug 30, 2011)

I think Huntmore and others have made good points.  Confession is obedient and good for the confessor as well as the listeners who take on such confidential burdens in a nonjudgmental way.

I am comforted that God knows and sees all, and that the Spirit intercedes for me and provides an assist to my woeful prayers when my own vanity, pride, arrogance, blindness or as Huntmore says my pure cowardness lead me to deny my sins, or try to hide my sins in shame, or to blame others for my sins.

There are two contexts at least that seem to exist. The first is when you've wronged somebody or become angry withna brother. Can somebody help me with the scripture on that point? I think the sun is not supposed to set on your anger, which involves a sort of confession or revelation to the third party involved. Also, I think apologizing is a kind of confession.  Somebody straighten me out on those please.

The other context is the idea that we've sinned, third parties are not owed either a discussion or apology per the context above, and we have to unload this poisoness mess we've caused.  I think prayerful repentance to God is healthy.  I always thought it was obedient, too.  You know, keeping a short account.

Are the "must confess to third parties" guys saying that private 
penitence and confession is unworthy or that it doesn't count some how? Is private prayer and repentance to God disobedient or wrong?

Huntmore and others may be able to help me with those questions.  My maternal grandmother was excommunicated from the Catholic Church for marrying a Presbyterian.  My mother suffered the same experience when she married my Presbyterian dad.  So it was not without ancestral turmoil that I married my Catholic wife in the Catholic church after Vatican II.  In my experience, confession to clergy, confession to fellow believers and confession to God privately, all occurring in a confidential environment, are functional equivalents.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 30, 2011)

huntmore said:


> If Jesus was standing in front of you in the flesh do you think you could confess to him? I find it hard to beleave that a person can't confess to a person but could confess to God.



God already knows my sins, really all I'm doing is asking for forgiveness for them and I am specific about what sins I'm speaking of. I like being able to ask for forgiveness any time and place, and usually as soon as it happens.
I can tell my friends or family especially my daughter how I've sinned. I just couldn't tell a stranger, well I could and have, I guess I just don't do it that way or see any reason to, when Jesus is right here with me. And I can ask Him to take the desire away of whatever it is I've been doing and when I don't know what to say, the Holy Spirit will intervene for me. 'Help me Lord not to sin again...even though I will'. 

Whatever we're convicted of doing is what we should do, and there are different ways to ask for forgiveness. I'm just thankful I don't have to go sacrifice a lamb.


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## christianhunter (Aug 30, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I don't believe this thread is specifically targeting the divorce thread.  I think he's speaking in general terms.



Amen Ronnie,only as examples.I'm not refering to any one in general,either.There have been posts and threads where people came across as judgmental.Guess what?...I can think of times that I have done it.I'm doing absolutely no finger pointing,with maybe an exception of myself.We are to confess to one another F1 gave us the Scripture.


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## christianhunter (Aug 30, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I understand the point of what CH posted, and I agree.
> 
> But I think people need to understand something (at least from my perspective)...
> 
> ...



...Okay,let's take the divorce thread out of the OP.It was an example nothing more.The reason it was worth mentioning is because of the amount of pages it has.F1 is a friend,I have actually talked with him numerous times.He took no offense,because we have talked,and I think we know each others heart.Typing on here doesn't really relay feeling and emotion very well.I have no negative feelings on the Divorce thread,although it did draw a lot of fire.Peace RJ and HF,we are Brothers in good standing.
As far as the serial killer Thread that F1 posted,I have mixed,and what I would consider normal emotions on that one.That one brings up a good point on judging,as you can see on some of the posts.
As a side note RJ,there does appear to be some folks,though they are few, who I think still come across as judgmental.Maybe I'm wrong,but we all fall short.As far as the comment about people who "think they are sinless",I believe some appear to be "puffed up" at times.No one in particular,no quotes,no names given,no one in general for that matter.I've been on here for four years and yes I have seen it recently.


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## huntmore (Aug 30, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> We are also called to bear one another's burdens and mourn with each other...
> 
> ...but I don't walk down the street grabbing random people and telling them all the terrible things I've done in my life.
> 
> ...



First off I am not your man or your bud. Leave the name calling alone.
How can you bear one anothers burdens without confessing them to someone. I never said to just get some random person and tell them your sins. Do not put words in my mouth and then complain/whine about( your) words.

 I would think a rational man would pick someone to tell their sins to that had a clue. Meaning someone who knew the word of God and understands the gravity of sin. That person or persons should also be able to help you after you have confessed.
I still say if you can't confess to the person who you have not offended you sure can't tell the LORD GOD. After all he is the one who you have offended most by your sins.

I guess I am lucky I haven't ever heard of any of the  Churchs that I have gone to have that problem (gossip and lies as a result of a confession). As a matter of fact I have heard of Priest going to jail for not telling what they have heard in confession.


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## huntmore (Aug 30, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Where did you get the idea that I said we aren't supposed to discuss our sin issues with others?    Don't think I said anything to that affect above.  Accountability is a big ticket item in one's spiritual life....I never said it wasn't.
> 
> 
> And no....telling someone about my sins means nothing in regards to being able to confess my sins to God.
> ...



So you do think that God wants us to confess our sins to a human standing in front of us or no. Just asking. If I have misrepresented your words I am sorry. I sometimes do not pay as close attention as I should.


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## huntmore (Aug 30, 2011)

Sin is before all else an offence against God, a rupture of communion with him. At the same time it damages communion with the Church. For this reason conversion entails both Gods forgiveness and reconciliation with the Church, which are expressed and accomplished liturgically by the sacrament of Penance and reconciliation. 

Only God forgives sin
Since he is the son of God, Jesus says of himself "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power. "Your sins are forgiven" MK 2:5, 10 : Lk 7:48. Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name. JN 20: 21-23.
Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the execise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the "ministry of reconciliation " COR 5:18 The apostile is sent out on behalf of Christ with " God making his appeal" through him and pleading :
"Be reconciled to God"Cor 5:20

and here we go!!


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## BT Charlie (Aug 31, 2011)

Thanks Huntmore.


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## formula1 (Aug 31, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> ...Okay,let's take the divorce thread out of the OP.It was an example nothing more.The reason it was worth mentioning is because of the amount of pages it has.F1 is a friend,I have actually talked with him numerous times.He took no offense,because we have talked,and I think we know each others heart.Typing on here doesn't really relay feeling and emotion very well.I have no negative feelings on the Divorce thread,although it did draw a lot of fire.Peace RJ and HF,we are Brothers in good standing.
> As far as the serial killer Thread that F1 posted,I have mixed,and what I would consider normal emotions on that one.That one brings up a good point on judging,as you can see on some of the posts.
> As a side note RJ,there does appear to be some folks,though they are few, who I think still come across as judgmental.Maybe I'm wrong,but we all fall short.As far as the comment about people who "think they are sinless",I believe some appear to be "puffed up" at times.No one in particular,no quotes,no names given,no one in general for that matter.I've been on here for four years and yes I have seen it recently.



CH and all:

On the divorce thread, I didn't really have any input as I don't have much experience with it (been married once to one wife for 28 years). But since I know what Grace is, I can say God forgives, God restores, and God qualifies His people for service.  Man should just probably get out of the way and trust God in this respect.

The serial killer thread was very intentional.  I wanted it to challenge us.  We all(christians) need to realize that if Grace cannot be extended to the most heinous among us, that how can we ourselves expect Grace on our day before the Lord. I would be as hopelessly lost as David B., but for God's grace, he and I are both in right relationship with the Father. The Grace of Christ is truly amazing!


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## Huntinfool (Aug 31, 2011)

> First off I am not your man or your bud. Leave the name calling alone.



Not name calling bud...that's just how I talk.  



> How can you bear one anothers burdens without confessing them to someone.



You can't...I didn't say that you could.



> I never said to just get some random person and tell them your sins. Do not put words in my mouth and then complain/whine about( your) words.



Uh....it sure read like you were "encouraging" us to confess our sins here on this open forum...to a bunch of random people.  I didn't put words in your mouth.  I just restated what you posted.  See?



> ...if you can't tell someone who your sins mean nothing to (i.e. random people on this board), you haven't got the guts to tell God to his face.



If I mis-read that, I apologize.  It sure sounded like you were following the theme of the thread and saying that we should just post 'em on up here.  Of course believers should hold each other accountable.  But that is reserved for close and deep relationships...not a bunch of folks on an internet message board...no matter how long we've all been here.


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## gtparts (Aug 31, 2011)

Huntmore, 

I am not trying to pick a fight or to derail or even start a new thread, but I just can't grasp the need to unburden my soul to a party not involved in the nature of my sin. 

First of all, when I confess to God directly, I am not telling Him anything He doesn't know, nor do I leave with any burden. 
I do not have anything to share with anyone else, as I am forgiven by God, except this: 

To the extent that I can, I am obligated to go to the person or persons against whom I have sinned and make restitution. Whether I am offered forgiveness or not is beyond my control. I may receive it or I may not. But, by doing so, I have done what is pleasing to God. 

As for penance, my God and Savior did penance for me on a cross. Would it be right for God or God's Church to punish me as well, after exacting full payment from His Son, who bore all my sins?

I sincerely hope this has not elevated your blood pressure or caused you distress, for it was not my intent.
I am merely trying to express my understanding of Scripture.

As for the confessing before men, I believe it is necessary for an entirely different purpose, that of making us more aware of our tendency to sin and our spiritual growth through accountability. Paul confessed his sin (failures) to many people without trying to justify them because it was a clear lesson in the power of Jesus to transform lives. In fact, such speech should be part of our testimony also.

Bottom line for me is this: 

If confession to a priest for the purpose of receiving forgiveness, penance, and reconciliation is what you believe, by all means, do it. God expects it.
God has not placed that on me. I'll just stick to the High Priest that God provided, Jesus.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 31, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> Peace RJ and HF,we are Brothers in good standing.







huntmore said:


> So you do think that God wants us to confess our sins to a human standing in front of us or no. Just asking. If I have misrepresented your words I am sorry. I sometimes do not pay as close attention as I should.



We should ask forgiveness of those we've wronged.  We should reach out for help in areas of struggle.

Confession to a priest does no good in my mind.  Christ is our high priest and it is only He that can forgive us our sins.  Why go to an intermediary when you can go straight to Christ Himself?

No...I don't expect an answer on that last question.  I understand, you're Catholic, I'm Protestant.  There are things we will not agree upon.  I'm not trying to stomp on the ant bed here, just telling you what I believe and why I believe it.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 31, 2011)

"confess your sins to one another"

My friends and myself have always had an inclination to discuss our personal weaknesses and sins among ourselves.  We share our struggles and weaknesses.  I think it's good for the soul.  Makes us humble among our friends.  Keeps our feet on the ground.
It gets lonesome up on the tip top of the mountain, trying to stay above everyone else.  Being able to talk about ourselves with other people tends to keep us down at the foot of the mountain with everyone else.


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## huntmore (Aug 31, 2011)

I will be back later and for the record no one has made me mad. I have a pretty thick skin and i am forgiving. 
Oh and  what ronniet said in his last post.


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## huntmore (Aug 31, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> We should ask forgiveness of those we've wronged.  We should reach out for help in areas of struggle.
> 
> Confession to a priest does no good in my mind.  Christ is our high priest and it is only He that can forgive us our sins.  Why go to an intermediary when you can go straight to Christ Himself?
> 
> No...I don't expect an answer on that last question.  I understand, you're Catholic, I'm Protestant.  There are things we will not agree upon.  I'm not trying to stomp on the ant bed here, just telling you what I believe and why I believe it.



Sorry to disapoint you but here is my answer. It is simple really, Jesus commanded us to tell an intermediary. I wish I could type better and cut and paste like others I could show you. I posted some places you can find the answer in one of my last posts. Jesus told Peter " whomever sins  you (Peter the intermediary) hold bound on earth will be bound in heaven" so on and so forth. There is no way anyone can miss enterperate those words unless they just want to. 
Confessing to a Priest can be good in several ways. Some people have a hard time forgiving themselves. Talking with a Priest gives the Priest a chance to tell you, you are not alone we (God and the Church are here to help). Someone my mother knew many years ago (relative) had his small son riding a tractor with him. The son fell off the tractor and was run over and killed. That father made a small whip of some kind and beat himself for years. 
Some people have a hard time forgiving others. The Priest can tell them how they can accomplish that and rid themselves of any hate or anamosity towards someone who has hurt them.
I forgive you for being a Protestant.


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## JB0704 (Aug 31, 2011)

huntmore said:


> First off I am not your man or your bud. Leave the name calling alone.





Huntinfool said:


> Not name calling bud...that's just how I talk.



.....really?  

It is amazing how a thread which started with the concept of peace and unity in mind turned into a doctrinal debate over confessions.  I am not certain if there is any difference between one guy talking to his priest and another guy talking to his "accountabillabuddy" (as South Park calls it).  Catholics go to the priest, everybody else tells their friends.  Not sure it really matters in the end.

I thought you guys (you know who you are) claimed being judgmental was what all good Christians do to each other? 

And to answer the OP, I hold grudges


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## huntmore (Aug 31, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Huntmore,
> 
> I am not trying to pick a fight or to derail or even start a new thread, but I just can't grasp the need to unburden my soul to a party not involved in the nature of my sin.
> 
> ...



Bottom line for me is this. Jesus gave us (The Church) the power to help one another. He also gave the power to forgive sins to his Church (says so in the Bible)and that is what we as Catholics been doing for a long time and we been sticken with Jesus as well.  

This is way to much typing for me.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 31, 2011)

huntmore said:


> Sorry to disapoint you but here is my answer. It is simple really, Jesus commanded us to tell an intermediary. I wish I could type better and cut and paste like others I could show you. I posted some places you can find the answer in one of my last posts. Jesus told Peter " whomever sins  you (Peter the intermediary) hold bound on earth will be bound in heaven" so on and so forth. There is no way anyone can miss enterperate those words unless they just want to.
> Confessing to a Priest can be good in several ways. Some people have a hard time forgiving themselves. Talking with a Priest gives the Priest a chance to tell you, you are not alone we (God and the Church are here to help). Someone my mother knew many years ago (relative) had his small son riding a tractor with him. The son fell off the tractor and was run over and killed. That father made a small whip of some kind and beat himself for years.
> Some people have a hard time forgiving others. The Priest can tell them how they can accomplish that and rid themselves of any hate or anamosity towards someone who has hurt them.
> I forgive you for being a Protestant.



To copy and paste, take your mouse and point to the first letter of where you want to copy, holding your left mouse button down and scroll over all the letter/words you want to copy, which will highlight usually in blue. Leaving the highlight up, hold down your control button on the bottom left of your keyboard and hit the letter C at the same time.....then point your mouse where you want to drop/paste and then hit your control button again and at the same time hit your V. It will drop it on the line in your post where you want it. If it copies something that you don't want, just erase it the same way you correct a mistake. 
That is so much better and easier than typing a bunch of scripture. 

If you want to practice, start at the T at the beginning of this/my post and holding your left mouse button down all the way to the end and then go to pm me a message and drop it in the message. I'll let you know if you passed the test....hahahahahaha. It will stay copied until you log out, or until you copy and paste something else.


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## huntmore (Aug 31, 2011)

JB0704 
Thats what I thought. Funny, looked at several of his other posts and he didn't address anyone else in this manner. It's ok he is forgiven.


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## huntmore (Aug 31, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> To copy and paste, take your mouse and point to the first letter of where you want to copy, holding your left mouse button down and scroll over all the letter/words you want to copy, which will highlight usually in blue. Leaving the highlight up, hold down your control button on the bottom left of your keyboard and hit the letter C at the same time.....then point your mouse where you want to drop/paste and then hit your control button again and at the same time hit your V. It will drop it on the line in your post where you want it. If it copies something that you don't want, just erase it the same way you correct a mistake.
> That is so much better and easier than typing a bunch of scripture.
> 
> If you want to practice, start at the T at the beginning of this/my post and holding your left mouse button down all the way to the end and then go to pm me a message and drop it in the message. I'll let you know if you passed the test....hahahahahaha. It will stay copied until you log out, or until you copy and paste something else.



Sorry mtnwoman I meant to say I need to learn how to go to another site copy something from there and get it to show up on one of my posts. keeping in mind that by the time I get to the other website I would most likely forget where I need to go back to. Blond and old is a bad combonation. Oh and can't spell either.


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## huntmore (Aug 31, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> .....really?
> 
> It is amazing how a thread which started with the concept of peace and unity in mind turned into a doctrinal debate over confessions.  I am not certain if there is any difference between one guy talking to his priest and another guy talking to his "accountabillabuddy" (as South Park calls it).  Catholics go to the priest, everybody else tells their friends.  Not sure it really matters in the end.
> 
> ...


 
As far as I know I haven't judged anyone here. Jsut told them what I believe. If we did it your way all you would hear in here is-------- (those are crickets)


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## JB0704 (Sep 1, 2011)

huntmore said:


> As far as I know I haven't judged anyone here. Jsut told them what I believe. If we did it your way all you would hear in here is-------- (those are crickets)




Wasn't talking about you.  I have had conversations with others who openly believe it is thier duty to judge other christians.  

About the crickets, you might have a point, but I am not talking about debate.


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## stringmusic (Sep 1, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Wasn't talking about you.  I have had conversations with others who openly believe it is thier duty to judge other christians.
> 
> About the crickets, you might have a point, but I am not talking about debate.



JB, I think your putting to much emphasis on the judging thing, IMO, we are called to hold others proclaiming Christ accountable for their sins. 

That does not mean we nit-pick everything we see, but to call a spade a spade when it is apparent in someones' life that sin is causing seperation in their relationship with Christ.


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## stringmusic (Sep 1, 2011)

huntmore said:


> Sorry to disapoint you but here is my answer. It is simple really, Jesus commanded us to tell an intermediary. I wish I could type better and cut and paste like others I could show you. I posted some places you can find the answer in one of my last posts. Jesus told Peter " whomever sins  you (Peter the intermediary) hold bound on earth will be bound in heaven" so on and so forth. There is no way anyone can miss enterperate those words unless they just want to.
> *Confessing to a Priest *can be good in several ways. Some people have a hard time forgiving themselves. *Talking with a Priest *gives* the Priest *a chance to tell you, you are not alone we (God and the Church are here to help). Someone my mother knew many years ago (relative) had his small son riding a tractor with him. The son fell off the tractor and was run over and killed. That father made a small whip of some kind and beat himself for years.
> Some people have a hard time forgiving others.* The Priest *can tell them how they can accomplish that and rid themselves of any hate or anamosity towards someone who has hurt them.
> I forgive you for being a Protestant.



You are right, the book of Hebrews lays out the particular Priest you're talking about, starting around chapter 4 verse 14


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## rjcruiser (Sep 1, 2011)

huntmore said:


> I forgive you for being a Protestant.



and I forgive you for being Catholic  



JB0704 said:


> "accountabillabuddy" (as South Park calls it).



You watch SouthPark?



stringmusic said:


> You are right, the book of Hebrews lays out the particular Priest you're talking about, starting around chapter 4 verse 14


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## huntmore (Sep 1, 2011)

RJ Thanks (I think) more


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## Huntinfool (Sep 13, 2011)

> I thought you guys (you know who you are) claimed being judgmental was what all good Christians do to each other?



Just for the record, not a single person claimed that being judgmental was what all good Christians do to each other.

Judging the actions of a brother against scripture and helping him realize a weakness...very loving.  Being judgemental...not so much.

At all times we need to be aware that we will be judged with the same measure that we judge.  It's a good reminder that we need not be harsh in that act.




> And to answer the OP, I hold grudges




For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
(Matthew 6:14-15 ESV)

forgive, and you will be forgiven;
(Luke 6:37 ESV)


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## Israel (Sep 13, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Not sure I could wait. I spend far too much time failing God, not to confess as soon and where the Holy Spirit brings it to mind. Exactly like Adam and Eve, God knows where I am and what I have done, continuously. When I see how I have disappointed Him, well, it is then time to hit my knees and confess, especially since He has already taken the punishment for me and forgiven me through the same.
> 
> I was bought with a terrible price, yet He lives. To whom do I owe my confession but my Master?



Amen.

And yet...has anyone else had the experience that often comes with "confess your faults to one another?" I see sin lose its hold when brought to the light, I see the comfort of the Holy Ghost and relief of not trying to maintain a facade others may mistakenly see, and enforce by their attitudes...give way to "gee, I didn't know you struggled with that!" ...which points to best outcome I see in the instruction: All of us, from the newest convert to the most seasoned saint, deal with the exact same things. 
There are none, even the most exercised saint that has not learned the self will adopt whatever camoflauge is convenient to flee the cross, and each of us is given one to deal with it.
We, often, at first, see the obvious and grossly visible. But later we may learn that the pride that so easily used to raise it's head in loudly vilifying others, has learned to manifest itself in the subtlest of ways...a word not spoken when we felt the spirit's prompting...or words seemingly harmless and casual, when the spirit was saying, "peace, be still".
Yes, admitting our weakness, not for its own sake, but as invitation to a savior we all need, moment by moment...benefits the whole body. An organ that may like to think of itself alone, and even be brought to presumptuously boast "I don't need the blood as much as you obviously do..." will find itself shriveled and dying, in short order.


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