# Alcohol on Sunday



## Randy (Nov 8, 2011)

Did any of your pastors speak out this past Sunday to vote against the alcohol sales on Sunday issue?

The head of the Christian Coalition in Georgia says he could not find one church that had stood up against it.


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## gtparts (Nov 8, 2011)

Randy said:


> Did any of your pastors speak out this past Sunday to vote against the alcohol sales on Sunday issue?
> 
> The head of the Christian Coalition in Georgia says he could not find one church that had stood up against it.



Sounds like the CCG didn't take the lead on this one. You can't fault the uninformed. Furthermore, perhaps the Lord was more intentional about evangelical preaching being the subject this past Sunday. 

Let those who choose to behave contrary to the will of God give account.


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## jmharris23 (Nov 8, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Sounds like the CCG didn't take the lead on this one. You can't fault the uninformed. Furthermore, perhaps the Lord was more intentional about evangelical preaching being the subject this past Sunday.
> 
> Let those who choose to behave contrary to the will of God give account.



This is my stance. Right or wrong I don't know, but I choose not to deal in politics from my pulpit. 

I believe that it is much more productive to preach the gospel and let people vote as their conscience and the Spirit move them to.


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## Randy (Nov 8, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> This is my stance. Right or wrong I don't know, but I choose not to deal in politics from my pulpit.
> 
> I believe that it is much more productive to preach the gospel and let people vote as their conscience and the Spirit move them to.


So did you preach on what the Bible says about drinking and keeping the Sabbath holy.


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## JB0704 (Nov 8, 2011)

Was it Sunday when Jesus made the wine for the after party?


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## TheBishop (Nov 8, 2011)

Randy said:


> So did you preach on what the Bible says about drinking and keeping the Sabbath holy.



So should the police powers of government be used to keep the sabbath holy, even though there are a considerable amount of people that don't believe any day is more holy than the next?


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## Havana Dude (Nov 8, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Sounds like the CCG didn't take the lead on this one. You can't fault the uninformed. Furthermore, perhaps the Lord was more intentional about evangelical preaching being the subject this past Sunday.
> 
> Let those who choose to behave contrary to the will of God give account.





jmharris23 said:


> This is my stance. Right or wrong I don't know, but I choose not to deal in politics from my pulpit.
> 
> I believe that it is much more productive to preach the gospel and let people vote as their conscience and the Spirit move them to.



Sounds like these 2 men have a firm grip on reality. Excellent responses.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 8, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> This is my stance. Right or wrong I don't know, but I choose not to deal in politics from my pulpit.
> 
> I believe that it is much more productive to preach the gospel and let people vote as their conscience and the Spirit move them to.



Me to.
I spoke concerning "The Faithfulness of God".
I thought it was a good subject.


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## dawg2 (Nov 8, 2011)

Randy said:


> Did any of your pastors speak out this past Sunday to vote against the alcohol sales on Sunday issue?
> 
> The head of the Christian Coalition in Georgia says he could not find one church that had stood up against it.



It's a two way street.  If churches involve themselves in legislation, then they too will be legislated.


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## Randy (Nov 8, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> So should the police powers of government be used to keep the sabbath holy, even though there are a considerable amount of people that don't believe any day is more holy than the next?


Nope.  In fact, I have no problem with this being brought up for a vate.  Our gooberment is based on that.  My hope would be that the church would come out and say it is wrong and put that on it's church goers.  They certainly have no problem preaching on tything!  The church is too scared to "tell it like it is" now days for fear that they may loose some members.  As such, we have lost God in our schools and other places.


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## dawg2 (Nov 8, 2011)

Randy said:


> Nope.  In fact, I have no problem with this being brought up for a vate.  Our gooberment is based on that.  My hope would be that the church would come out and say it is wrong and put that on it's church goers.  They certainly have no problem preaching on tything!  The church is too scared to "tell it like it is" now days for fear that they may loose some members.  As such, we have lost God in our schools and other places.


Does the bible say no alcohol /drinking on Sunday?  (I am not talking about getting sloppy drunk).


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## Randy (Nov 8, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> Does the bible say no alcohol /drinking on Sunday?  (I am not talking about getting sloppy drunk).


No actually it says non on Saturday (the Sabbath), but that is another subject.


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## dawg2 (Nov 8, 2011)

Randy said:


> No actually it says non on Saturday (the Sabbath), but that is another subject.



Do you have a verse that say that?  I thought alcohol was allowed during the Sabbath.  The restriction would be for grain alcohol during Passover because it would be considered chametz or leaven.  

Not trying to be argumentative, but I had not heard that.


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## Randy (Nov 8, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> Do you have a verse that say that?  I thought alcohol was allowed during the Sabbath.  The restriction would be for grain alcohol during Passover because it would be considered chametz or leaven.
> 
> Not trying to be argumentative, but I had not heard that.



I guess it is what you believe God means when He says keep the Sabbath holy.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 8, 2011)

I'm pretty much leaning towards the majority here. You can't pick one thing, alcohol, and say not selling it on sunday, but yet you expect people to work on sunday at the restaurants so's you can go out and eat after church, or go shopping, or working, or plowing, or making your wife cook or fix you lunch after church. Cops can't direct the church traffic,  no gas station people working, no tv networkers, NO FOOTBALL(i'd love that..lol).

I worked many a sunday with bellsouth and would've rather been in church. Didn't mean in my heart I wasn't worshiping my Lord, though, no one can take that away.

No airline people working, nor motel/hotel people working. If you want to abide by that law that is certainly understandable but you can't pick and choose one thing that you don't like and shut that down. Besides everyone doesn't believe as we do. You keep that law if you want to,
if it's heavy on your heart. Don't hunt on sunday, don't drink on sunday, don't watch football or tv because you're watching other people work. Don't do anything but go to church come home and rest. My daughters family does that, right after they go out and eat they take a nap and go back to church, so they can't say they abide by that law entirely.

And yes to the point that we can't force our beliefs on others unless we expect the same done back to us.


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## jmharris23 (Nov 8, 2011)

Randy said:


> So did you preach on what the Bible says about drinking and keeping the Sabbath holy.



Nope I continued a series of sermons I am doing on the Sermon on the Mount. We have been going through the beatitudes for several weeks. This Sunday's message was based on the 5th beatitude, "Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy." 

For the record, I don't preach on tithing much either


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## gtparts (Nov 8, 2011)

*To those who claim the blood of Christ.....*

Two points and I am out of this thread.

1) If you are honest in your approach to Scripture, there is no injunction against the prudent and conservative use of beverage alcohol. There is against drunkenness, accompanied by many warnings. Beyond that, we are told that if God pricks your conscience regarding a personal practice, put it down and walk away. If God does not ***** some in the same manner, understand that God has a reason for not doing so. If we were all the same in all points, God might treat us all the same. We are not and He does not.

2) Scripture tells us that the Sabbath was made for us. We were not made for the Sabbath. If observing the Sabbath holds a special place for you, why do you treat the other 6 with so little regard? If observing the Sabbath just isn't part of your spiritual routine, then what you do the other 6 is of no consequence. Finally, if you hold all 7 days as sacred unto the Lord, then the Kingdom is not far from you.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 8, 2011)

In Jesus, every day is a holy day unto the Lord.


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## dawg2 (Nov 8, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Two points and I am out of this thread.
> 
> 1) If you are honest in your approach to Scripture, there is no injunction against the prudent and conservative use of beverage alcohol. There is against drunkenness, accompanied by many warnings. Beyond that, we are told that if God pricks your conscience regarding a personal practice, put it down and walk away. If God does not ***** some in the same manner, understand that God has a reason for not doing so. If we were all the same in all points, God might treat us all the same. We are not and He does not.
> 
> 2) Scripture tells us that the Sabbath was made for us. We were not made for the Sabbath. If observing the Sabbath holds a special place for you, why do you treat the other 6 with so little regard? If observing the Sabbath just isn't part of your spiritual routine, then what you do the other 6 is of no consequence. Finally, if you hold all 7 days as sacred unto the Lord, then the Kingdom is not far from you.





Ronnie T said:


> In Jesus, every day is a holy day unto the Lord.



Very well said.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 8, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> In Jesus, every day is a holy day unto the Lord.



Amen!!


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## thedeacon (Nov 9, 2011)

NEWS FLASH!!

If drinking is wrong on Sunday, it is wrong on Monday.


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## dawg2 (Nov 9, 2011)

thedeacon said:


> NEWS FLASH!!
> 
> If drinking is wrong on Sunday, it is wrong on Monday.



AND: If it is OK on Sunday, it's OK on Monday


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## ryanh487 (Nov 18, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Two points and I am out of this thread.
> 
> 2) Scripture tells us that the Sabbath was made for us. We were not made for the Sabbath. If observing the Sabbath holds a special place for you, why do you treat the other 6 with so little regard? If observing the Sabbath just isn't part of your spiritual routine, then what you do the other 6 is of no consequence. Finally, if you hold all 7 days as sacred unto the Lord, then the Kingdom is not far from you.



The Sabbath, like any blessing from God, is only a blessing in His intended contexts. And keeping Sabbath 7 days a week isn't Holy, it's LAZY, and disobedient. God commanded us to work the other 6 days. The Sabbath, which Biblically is NOT sunday as Randy pointed out, is a special "date" day with God. Christianity is about love relationship with our heavenly Father, and relationships take time. If we can't spend 1 24 hour period a week dedicated 100% to nothing but fellowship with our creator, how do we expect to spend eternity with Him?


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## rjcruiser (Nov 18, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> AND: If it is OK on Sunday, it's OK on Monday



What about Friday?


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## stringmusic (Nov 18, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> What about Friday?


Hand over the keys to that three wheeler and scooter in your avatar...


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## HoCoLion91 (Nov 18, 2011)

Churches would double in attendance if they would get off the alcohol is a sin soapbox.  Jesus turned 7 jars of water into wine at a wedding.  Do you think he had a problem with drinking?


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## ryanh487 (Nov 21, 2011)

HoCoLion91 said:


> Churches would double in attendance if they would get off the alcohol is a sin soapbox.  Jesus turned 7 jars of water into wine at a wedding.  Do you think he had a problem with drinking?



who said it had alcohol? the term applied to both grape juice and alcoholic wine, but was primarily applied to juice. with all the verses in the bible condemning the excessive consumption of alcohol and drunkenness as a sin, do you REALLY think Jesus would create hundreds of gallons of alcohol?

regardless of whether or not alcohol is a "sin" or not, the church should have no say in legislation just like legislation should have no say in the church. If people want to drink on Sunday, they will. If they don't, they won't.


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## dawg2 (Nov 21, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> who said it had alcohol? the term applied to both grape juice and alcoholic wine, but was primarily applied to juice. with all the verses in the bible condemning the excessive consumption of alcohol and drunkenness as a sin, do you REALLY think Jesus would create hundreds of gallons of alcohol?
> 
> regardless of whether or not alcohol is a "sin" or not, the church should have no say in legislation just like legislation should have no say in the church. If people want to drink on Sunday, they will. If they don't, they won't.


If it didn't, then the people would not have been surprised that the 2nd round of wine was "the good stuff."  The good stuff is always served 1st.  The cheap stuff is served 2nd because at that point they have had enough to get tipsy and not care or notice the 2nd round was the "cheap stuff."


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## ryanh487 (Nov 21, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> If it didn't, then the people would not have been surprised that the 2nd round of wine was "the good stuff."  The good stuff is always served 1st.  The cheap stuff is served 2nd because at that point they have had enough to get tipsy and not care or notice the 2nd round was the "cheap stuff."



"the good stuff" just meant fresh. Grape harvest was only a few months out of the year. Obviously fresher was better. In order to preserve the grape juice, the grapes would be boiled down into a sterile syrup, or concentrated, and stored in large earthen jars. the syrup was diluted with water and used throughout the year. the older concentrate was cheaper, fresher was more expensive.


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## dawg2 (Nov 21, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> "the good stuff" just meant fresh. Grape harvest was only a few months out of the year. Obviously fresher was better. In order to preserve the grape juice, the grapes would be boiled down into a sterile syrup, or concentrated, and stored in large earthen jars. the syrup was diluted with water and used throughout the year. the older concentrate was cheaper, fresher was more expensive.



If it were "grape juice" then why was Jesus accused of being a "wine-bibber?"  Nobody would have cared if it was grape juice.  That term only applies to alcoholic wine.


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## 1john4:4 (Nov 21, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> who said it had alcohol? the term applied to both grape juice and alcoholic wine, but was primarily applied to juice. with all the verses in the bible condemning the excessive consumption of alcohol and drunkenness as a sin, do you REALLY think Jesus would create hundreds of gallons of alcohol?
> 
> regardless of whether or not alcohol is a "sin" or not, the church should have no say in legislation just like legislation should have no say in the church. If people want to drink on Sunday, they will. If they don't, they won't.




Yep




ryanh487 said:


> "the good stuff" just meant fresh. Grape harvest was only a few months out of the year. Obviously fresher was better. In order to preserve the grape juice, the grapes would be boiled down into a sterile syrup, or concentrated, and stored in large earthen jars. the syrup was diluted with water and used throughout the year. the older concentrate was cheaper, fresher was more expensive.



I agree... If you compare fresh grape juice to fermented grape juice the fresh will always taste better.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 21, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> If it were "grape juice" then why was Jesus accused of being a "wine-bibber?"  Nobody would have cared if it was grape juice.  That term only applies to alcoholic wine.



Because of the company he kept. They also called him a sinner and a blasphemer, doesn't make it true.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 21, 2011)

The modern-day disciple has to very slowly crawl out onto a very thin branch if they're going to claim alcoholic wine wasn't made, drank and shared during the 1st century.

Wine had to be fermented!  I know, I know, it was fermented in a way that didn't result in it being alcoholic.  Wrong.

Now I'm not a drinker of alcohol.  But it doesn't serve a good purpose for me to invent a reason to call it a sin.


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## stringmusic (Nov 21, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> The modern-day disciple has to very slowly crawl out onto a very thin branch if they're going to claim alcoholic wine wasn't made, drank and shared during the 1st century.
> 
> Wine had to be fermented!  I know, I know, it was fermented in a way that didn't result in it being alcoholic.  Wrong.
> 
> Now I'm not a drinker of alcohol.  But it doesn't serve a good purpose for me to invent a reason to call it a sin.



Great post!


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## dawg2 (Nov 21, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> The modern-day disciple has to very slowly crawl out onto a very thin branch if they're going to claim alcoholic wine wasn't made, drank and shared during the 1st century.
> 
> Wine had to be fermented!  I know, I know, it was fermented in a way that didn't result in it being alcoholic.  Wrong.
> 
> Now I'm not a drinker of alcohol.  But it doesn't serve a good purpose for me to invent a reason to call it a sin.



YOU said it better than I ever could.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 21, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> The modern-day disciple has to very slowly crawl out onto a very thin branch if they're going to claim alcoholic wine wasn't made, drank and shared during the 1st century.
> 
> Wine had to be fermented!  I know, I know, it was fermented in a way that didn't result in it being alcoholic.  Wrong.
> 
> Now I'm not a drinker of alcohol.  But it doesn't serve a good purpose for me to invent a reason to call it a sin.



fermentation is a deliberate process that results in alcohol production. concentration is a process that preserves without alcohol. concentration was commonly used as a preservative method. the fact that the wine from the wedding was stored in jars and not skins is further evidence that it was in fact concentrated grape juice and not fermented wine.

I'm not saying it is or isn't wrong to have a drink or two. While I personally see no benefit or glory to God in drinking and choose not to, that's a personal decision. I'm saying that our Lord and Savior did not create a environment for his friends and family to get smashed.


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## dawg2 (Nov 21, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> fermentation is a deliberate process that results in alcohol production. concentration is a process that preserves with alcohol.



So let me get this straight.  They boiled the juice to sterilize and make it safe for consumption and storage.  Then they add unsterilized water and contaminate it.  Doesn't past muster.

You do realize why they fermented grape juice right?  Water supplies were not treated "back then" and people got sick from water.  Fermenting allowed a drink that wouldn't kill you and could be stored for long periods and not put you in a grave.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 21, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> So let me get this straight.  They boiled the juice to sterilize and make it safe for consumption and storage.  Then they add unsterilized water and contaminate it.  Doesn't past muster.
> 
> You do realize why they fermented grape juice right?  Water supplies were not treated "back then" and people got sick from water.  Fermenting allowed a drink that wouldn't kill you and could be stored for long periods and not put you in a grave.



The roman empire was known for it's water systems... plus, Jesus drank water from a well with the samaritan woman. clearly there was water available that was drinkable without needing fermented additives to clean it.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Great post!



X2, I'm so glad to see that I'm not alone in this one


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 21, 2011)

I can make grape juice by smashing up some grapes but there's no miracle in that. It had to be fermented inorder to be a miracle. By the way, I don't drink so I'm not trying to justify anything


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## Living Proof (Nov 21, 2011)

I'm just glad He turned water to wine and not beer or liquor! It wouldn't be as much fun to mess with the Baptist.


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## brian lancaster (Nov 21, 2011)

If you have to constantly try to justify why its alright for you todrink then its probably wrong in Gods eyes.


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## dawg2 (Nov 21, 2011)

brian lancaster said:


> If you have to constantly try to justify why its alright for you todrink then its probably wrong in Gods eyes.



Matthew 11 18-19 KJV

18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. 

 19The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. 

______________________________________________

Funny thing is, he was (is) a friend of publicians and sinners.  No justification, only moderation.


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## rjcruiser (Nov 21, 2011)

brian lancaster said:


> If you have to constantly try to justify why its alright for you todrink then its probably wrong in Gods eyes.




Kinda like Jesus having to constantly justify His breaking the rules of the Sabbath?


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 22, 2011)

Jesus turned water into wine. Not grape juice. 

Good GRIEF.

Just because some Baptists get bent out of shape demonizing alcohol, dancing, playing cards, enjoying one's self, rock and roll music and all other manner of non-scripturally prohibited things that simply go against their natural sense of being a rabid killjoy doesn't mean I don't have to even begin to remotely argue for or against their weird attempts to turn wine into grape juice.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 22, 2011)

I've got to admit that it is humorous to me how Christians are so quick to rationalize their 'freedom' to drink alcohol.
It's one of those things the world could do without now that we have chlorine to purify water with.


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 22, 2011)

> I've got to admit that it is humorous to me how Christians are so quick to rationalize their 'freedom' to drink alcohol.



You must be confusing the Bible with the Koran.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 22, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> You must be confusing the Bible with the Koran.



Nope!


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## Six million dollar ham (Nov 22, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Now I'm not a drinker of alcohol.  But it doesn't serve a good purpose for me to invent a reason to call it a sin.



Not bad!


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 22, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Nope!



The verse you're looking for is here

O ye who believe! Intoxicants and Gambling, (Dedication of) stones, And (divination by) arrows, Are an Abomination Of Satan’s handiwork; Eschew such (abomination), That ye may prosper. [Al-Qur’an 5:90]

It isn't in the Bible.

Hope this helps.


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## Mako22 (Nov 22, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> Jesus turned water into wine. Not grape juice.
> 
> Good GRIEF.
> 
> Just because some Baptists get bent out of shape demonizing alcohol, dancing, playing cards, enjoying one's self, rock and roll music and all other manner of non-scripturally prohibited things that simply go against their natural sense of being a rabid killjoy doesn't mean I don't have to even begin to remotely argue for or against their weird attempts to turn wine into grape juice.



You cant even find a Baptust church that is against those sins anymore so please retire that line!


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## dawg2 (Nov 22, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I've got to admit that it is humorous to me how Christians are so quick to rationalize their 'freedom' to drink alcohol.
> It's one of those things the world could do without now that we have chlorine to purify water with.



Not being argumentative on this one.  So let me quantify my response first.  I do agree there are people that should probably NEVER drink alcohol.  There are others who should probably never be parents, drive cars, hunt, own a firearm, be around a Ryans buffet, posess a credit card, etc.  Some people have no self-control and once they recognize their weakness or faults they should avoid those situations or scenarios.

But I find it odd that the 1st miracle Jesus performed was turning water into wine.  It doesn't say grape juice or concentrate, or cider or anythng else.  It clearly said wine and it was "good wine" which is a hint it was alcoholic.  

But then if we read the "red" scripture, he did talk about alcohol, specifically in Matthew 11.  It wasn't the main focus of the conversation, but he clearly said he came drinking wine and they called him a wine bibber.  That would only apply to alcoholic wines.  Oddly enough, he says John The Baptist was accused of being posessed by the devil since he did not drink wine. So obviously there are non-alcoholic options for hydration.  So by his own admission, he did drink alcoholic wine.  It is printed in red in the KJV bible.  He clearly did not tak ethe same stance as JTB.  Maybe JTB understood it was a stumbling block for him and avoided alcohol.  But Jesus apparently could handle it and did not condemn others who drank in moderation.    

The other way I look at this is: What other scripture in "red" condemns alcohol or acohol in moderation?  Apparently it was not forbidden.  It also isn't listed on the 10 Commandments.  I have no problem with people that drink nor people that choose not to.  I have a problem with "abuse" and not just with regard to alcohol.

Going back to the OP:  Churches should not force legislation if they seek protection from legislation.  It is a slippery slope and one that will result in a difficult recovery.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 22, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> You must be confusing the Bible with the Koran.



There are 75 verses in the Bible condemning drinking as foolish behavior, and many verses equating foolishness with ungodliness. Of the stories in the Bible where "Bible heroes" are drinking alcohol, something bad always results--Noah, Lot, and Sampson are a few good examples. And priests were forbidden to drink alcohol or strong drink. If we are to be a "peculiar people", "Holy as I (God) am holy", and "unspotted of the world", why are we so persistent in justifying things that serve no benefit to our body and in fact cause far more harm than good.


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## SpinrB8 (Nov 22, 2011)

What gets me is the "judging" that is done by those deemed "thy good folk" because they attend organized church. Find yourself and hold it true to your interpretation of the good book, not what others interpret "for" you.

and @ Ronnie T and Dawg2...dig ya


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## Jeff Raines (Nov 22, 2011)

The water saw it's maker,and blushed.


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 23, 2011)

Woodsman69 said:


> You cant even find a Baptust church that is against those sins anymore so please retire that line!



And yet you consider those sins, and state them to be so. Very interesting.


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 23, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> There are 75 verses in the Bible condemning drinking as foolish behavior, and many verses equating foolishness with ungodliness.



Condemning drunkenness as foolish behaviour, and rightly so.

What does having the odd glass of wine with a meal, or maybe even as part of, you know -  a sacrament Jesus told his disciples to continue - with the same substance he turned water into, just sayin' - have to do with the Bible pointing out, rightly, that getting wasted can lead to problems?

I'm talking about those folks with the Baptist bible, the one that condemns dancing, playing cards, Elvis Presley, the Beatles, etc. who think that Jesus converted water to grape juice because they believe one iota of ethyl alcohol in their system a literal sin. The Bible doesn't preach this, but the Koran does.


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 23, 2011)

SpinrB8 said:


> What gets me is the "judging" that is done by those deemed "thy good folk" because they attend organized church. Find yourself and hold it true to your interpretation of the good book, not what others interpret "for" you.
> 
> and @ Ronnie T and Dawg2...dig ya



If I've come across as judgmental, please firstly forgive me, and secondly let me know where, so I can mend my ways.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 23, 2011)

Pauls rebuke of the way they were dishonoring the Lords supper was not that they were partaking of alcohol but that some were getting drunk. The qualification for a deacon is not that he abstain, but that he not be given to drunkeness. The NT context is clear, there was no teaching against it. As a reminder, I don't drink so I'm not trying to justify anything, only pointing out that religious legalist have no basis for using the bible as justification for their opinion.


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 23, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> religious legalist



The word you're looking for here is "Pharisee".


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## thedeacon (Nov 23, 2011)

I choose to be a non-drinker but I cannot go to the bible a prove that it is wrong to drink (in moderation) 

I can however show you where drunkeness is condemned. I can also show you verses that could prove that you could use saltine crackers in such a way that is wrong.

We can take anything good or not so good and treat it in such a way that it could be wrong at times.

I can say that the person that never takes a drink will never be an alcoholic.

Even though I cannot teach that moderate drinking is wrong I cannot condemn other people for teaching against something they think will condemn a soul. I do know its alright not to drink.

Just as I don't want them judgeing me, I don't have the right to condemn them. Maybe we need both sides in order to bring a little balance on something that could be trublesome to our world both spiritual and physical.

I choose not to put my trust in the teaching of this group or that group but instead put my trust in God.

Just my opinion, God bless


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## Madman (Nov 23, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> The word you're looking for here is "Pharisee".



Or "Cheap Grace".


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## Glock Master (Nov 23, 2011)

*Sunday*

First off the sabboth was orginally saturday. 
Second off Drinking is not biblically wrong, just being drunk
Third who is the government to say that we cant but stuff on certain days. 
If we start letting the Government pass laws like that, then what about Muslim Holidays? This kinda stuff is a slippery slope and we need to be carefull that we dont give an inch or they will take a mile....


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## centerpin fan (Nov 23, 2011)

These alcohol threads always bring out the new posters.


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## JB0704 (Nov 23, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> These alcohol threads always bring out the new posters.



....I wish some of the old ones would jump in.  HF isn't posting much these days, and I think this would be one thread where he and I would be on the same team.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 23, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> There are 75 verses in the Bible condemning drinking as foolish behavior, and many verses equating foolishness with ungodliness. Of the stories in the Bible where "Bible heroes" are drinking alcohol, something bad always results--Noah, Lot, and Sampson are a few good examples. And priests were forbidden to drink alcohol or strong drink. If we are to be a "peculiar people", "Holy as I (God) am holy", and "unspotted of the world", why are we so persistent in justifying things that serve no benefit to our body and in fact cause far more harm than good.



You make an excellant point in your last comment.


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## gtparts (Nov 24, 2011)

Glock Master said:


> First off the sabboth was orginally saturday.
> Second off Drinking is not biblically wrong, just being drunk
> Third who is the government to say that we cant but stuff on certain days.
> If we start letting the Government pass laws like that, then what about Muslim Holidays? This kinda stuff is a slippery slope and we need to be carefull that we dont give an inch or they will take a mile....



Don't know if you were "shooting from the hip", but your second comment seems rooted in a form of "religious legalism".

To those in Christ, we know that God will not squash us like a bug; our desire to know His will for us and to do it, is motivated by wanting to please Him, not avoiding punishment. 

Since this is true on the basis of each individual, should God impress upon me to be circumcised and for me to know, but not do it, it is sin. 

Should God not make the same clear to me, but rather, He instructs me to remain uncircumcised, then for me to submit to circumcision is sin. Paul spent some time refuting the legalism of the Judaizers on this point, as well as eating or not eating certain food items. (The
implications were intended to extend beyond circumcision and dietary considerations.)

Beverage alcohol is much the same and God's criticism and condemnation of overindulgence (as it applies to many things) is intended to safeguard us and others. Such is the reasonable and caring nature of God. Likewise, we are cautioned about unwisely placing burdens on others based on our own situations or God's expectations for us personally.


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## JB0704 (Nov 24, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> why are we so persistent in justifying things that serve no benefit to our body and in fact cause far more harm than good.



I do not feel the need to justify anything.  I like beer.  So, I drink it when the mood hits.  I don't owe anybody an explanation or justification.  Your interpretation of the Bible's stance on the subject is irrelevant to my opinion on the matter.

Good thing is, you are free to not drink alcohol, just as I am free to drink it.  I think that is pretty cool.

Happy Thanksgiving everybody!


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## TimB (Nov 24, 2011)

If the good Lord were so opposed to drinking then why would he tell the Israelites to spend a part of their tithes on wine and strong drink? Can    anyone answer that for me? 




> Deut. 14: 22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.
> 
> 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away),
> 
> 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 *Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink,* or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.





As to the topic of this thread, the church has no right or place pushing government to pass laws intended to keep sinners from sinning. Pass all the laws you want and sinners  will still sin.  Did we learn nothing after 4000 years of Mosaic law? 

Besides if the church can get laws passed that it wants then how long before other religions are imposing their beliefs on us? How would we like it if Jews got a law passed to keep us from driving our cars on the Sabbath (which they are prohibited from doing)?


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## Ronnie T (Nov 25, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I do not feel the need to justify anything.  I like beer.  So, I drink it when the mood hits.  I don't owe anybody an explanation or justification.  Your interpretation of the Bible's stance on the subject is irrelevant to my opinion on the matter.
> 
> Good thing is, you are free to not drink alcohol, just as I am free to drink it.  I think that is pretty cool.
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving everybody!



I'm assuming you meant that you don't have to justify your stance on drinking to anyone.  If so, I agree.  But it might be worth the discussion sometimes.

I don't know about you but I'm usually prepared to justify anything I think, believe or do.


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## Alaska (Nov 25, 2011)

I promise not to mix my alcohol with your beliefs if you promise not to mix your beliefs with our government!


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## centerpin fan (Nov 25, 2011)

As I said before:



centerpin fan said:


> These alcohol threads always bring out the new posters.



Imagine the posts if we combined alcohol and Freemasonry into one thread.  Toss baptism and free will into the mix, and we might have the world's most dangerous thread ... something similar to this:


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## JB0704 (Nov 26, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I'm assuming you meant that you don't have to justify your stance on drinking to anyone.



That is correct. It was in reference to this opinion that those of us who enjoy the occasional adult beverage have to find ways to "spin" it to make it right.  I don't.  I just have a beer from time to time, or a glass of wine (my wife nixed the stronger stuff years ago).



Ronnie T said:


> If so, I agree.  But it might be worth the discussion sometimes.



I always enjoy the conversations on here.



Ronnie T said:


> I don't know about you but I'm usually prepared to justify anything I think, believe or do.



I am as well, until it seems folks think I need their permission or approval, I seek neither.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 26, 2011)

I've often considered having a small glass of wine at night.
I "hear" that's it's really good for a persons health.


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## The Foreigner (Dec 8, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> The verse you're looking for is here
> 
> O ye who believe! Intoxicants and Gambling, (Dedication of) stones, And (divination by) arrows, Are an Abomination Of Satan’s handiwork; Eschew such (abomination), That ye may prosper. [Al-Qur’an 5:90]
> 
> ...



LOL that's hilarious.

When will we get over this alcohol thing? Threee points:

1. Jesus gave us wine to symbolize his blood- strange we should re-write scripture and make it grape juice.
2. To say he made non-alcoholic wine is the worst of revisionist madness - if this was the case, and the water to wine was actually water to grape juice, why would the Holy Spirit use EXACTLY THE SAME WORD for wine in the command "do not be drunk with wine" Eph 5:18.  
3. Wine is part of God's creation and is given to us to enjoy: people don't only drink it because it was good for their stomach, but because it tasted good - hence John 2.

This line of non-alcoholic wine being wrong and sinful really must stop. It dishonors God and his word.

Now drunkenness - we all know that's a sin.

Peace


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## The Foreigner (Dec 8, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> As I said before:
> 
> 
> 
> Imagine the posts if we combined alcohol and Freemasonry into one thread.  Toss baptism and free will into the mix, and we might have the world's most dangerous thread ... something similar to this:



Now that is even funnier.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 9, 2011)

We don't use wine at my church, we use grapejuice and pretend it is wine pretending to be blood.  And I'm pretty sure that provides our coverage on being a stumbling block to an alcoholic...and underage drinking.   Funny how actions of the flesh define actions of the spirit in oh so many instances.

If I were starving without crackers/wine on a desert island I could still take communion with my Lord.

Yes, drunkeness is a sin and since I can have 2 drinks and be drunk, I'm guilty. :worm:   lol


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 9, 2011)

I'd say Jesus turned the water into wine instead of Gatorade, orange juice, or RC cola simply because people haven't changed much-they were partying and wanted something alchoholic to drink just like we would now. And no, I don't agree at all with the Baptist Sharia laws that are so prevelant through the south. Clear meddling of church and state, i.e., unconstitutional. And no, I don't hate Baptists, my dad was a Baptist preacher. But I don't think that Baptist dogma has any business being made into state law.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 9, 2011)

NCHillbilly said:


> I'd say Jesus turned the water into wine instead of Gatorade, orange juice, or RC cola simply because people haven't changed much-they were partying and wanted something alchoholic to drink just like we would now. And no, I don't agree at all with the Baptist Sharia laws that are so prevelant through the south.



Hey I resemble that remark....


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## TimB (Dec 10, 2011)

The Foreigner said:


> LOL that's hilarious.
> 
> When will we get over this alcohol thing? Threee points:
> 
> ...




You're absolutely right of course. And I'll add this to confirm that the New testament does not talk about grapejuice. 



> Mat 9:17	 	Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.




You can put grape juice into old bottles or skins all day long and you won't have a problem. Only fermented wine  puts off the gasses that will stretch and break an old bottle or "skin".  

 And the word "wine" here is the same as when Jesus turned water into wine.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 10, 2011)

NCHillbilly said:


> And no, I don't agree at all with the Baptist Sharia laws that are so prevelant through the south. Clear meddling of church and state, i.e., unconstitutional.



The laws are prevalent because a lot of people voted for them.  I'm pretty sure voting is constitutional.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 10, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> The laws are prevalent because a lot of people voted for them.  I'm pretty sure voting is constitutional.



Thank God for that! Nobody appreciates that most of the south is also pro 'right to bear arms'.  Win some, lose some.


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## TimB (Dec 13, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> The laws are prevalent because a lot of people voted for them.  I'm pretty sure voting is constitutional.



But this isn't a democracy, you can't vote to make something law that is unconstitutional. That requires a constitutional amendment. 

 For instance you can't vote to keep minorities from eating in restaurants or using the same drinking fountains white people do. 

 Most of the so called "Blue laws" were instituted in the south when the Baptist church pretty much ruled  and had a lot of say in who got elected so the laws were put in by  baptist legislators or legislators who feared losing their job because the preachers came against them from the pulpit. 

 Times have changed. I remember a time when visiting my brother in the hospital I couldn't buy him a gift because it was Sunday and the Gift shop had to close because of blue laws. 

 It's time to   come out of the dark ages. God gives us a personal choice on how to live our lives and does not force anything on us. WE should follow his example. You can't force righteousness on someone by passing a law.


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## brotherslick (Dec 31, 2011)

*the good book*

1 Thess  5 : 22 that says it all


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## JB0704 (Dec 31, 2011)

brotherslick said:


> 1 Thess  5 : 22 that says it all



But what does that got to do with beer?


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## TimB (Jan 1, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> But what does that got to do with beer?



Good question. People assign evil to all sorts of things that the bible does not say are evil. Drunkeness is evil, the alcohol itself, not so much. 

 At any rate we believers have no business trying to legislate our morals on the unbelievers through government or the courts.


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## brotherslick (Jan 1, 2012)

The BIBLE does not say just evil but the APPEARANCE OF EVIL . If anything appears to be evil believers should abstain.


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## JB0704 (Jan 1, 2012)

brotherslick said:


> The BIBLE does not say just evil but the APPEARANCE OF EVIL . If anything appears to be evil believers should abstain.




My beer looks like beer.  What evil are you talking about?


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## brotherslick (Jan 1, 2012)

1 Cor 8:9


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## JB0704 (Jan 1, 2012)

brotherslick said:


> 1 Cor 8:9



Sorry, but how is me drinking beer on Sunday causing anybody to stumble?  

I think people forcing others to adhere to one's religious prejudices causes those who don't believe to stumble.


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## brotherslick (Jan 1, 2012)

be hard to witness to someone any time with a beer in your hand


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## TimB (Jan 1, 2012)

brotherslick said:


> The BIBLE does not say just evil but the APPEARANCE OF EVIL . If anything appears to be evil believers should abstain.



How far do you take that? The problem is that the idea of what is sin literally changes with each individual person. There are people who think it sinful for a woman to wear a dress that rises above her ankles or whose hair is not shoulder blade length. 

 To the Jew it is sin to drive a car on the Sabbath, to some it is sinful still to eat pork. To some it is a sin to drink coffee with caffeine. 

 Also to be clear I'm not advocating Christians going out bar hopping and drinking openly in a manner that appears he is drinking just for the sake of drinking to get high. But I absolutely see nothing wrong with having a glass of wine with dinner or even a beer if that is your preference as long as it is done in moderation and with good behavior. 

 In Deuteronomy 14 God tells the Israelites to spend a portion of one of the commanded tithes (the one where they save so they can go to feasts and such) to buy wine and "strong drink" and to basicly have a party before the Lord. Obviously God doesn't have a problem with a drink at the right time and for the right occasion. 

 But my post above and my main point here is regarding the topic of whether or not Christians should oppose the sale of alcohol on Sunday. 

 Frankly it's none of our business whether or not Joe Smith down the street wants to have a beer on Sunday. It's a free country, why should I be able to enforce my beliefs as a believer on an unbeliever? Frankly so called blue laws just cause resentment in the community toward Christians and Church people. And once you go down that road where do you stop? Should the Catholics be able to keep the rest of us from having meat on Friday or whatever it is they believe?


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## georgia_home (Jan 1, 2012)

It always amazes me:

Some bible thumpers feel that IF mans law says they CAN by alcohol they seem to think they MUST.

They seem not to have control or conviction to say "you go ahead, it ain't for me." they seem to feel that if they ain't trying to FORCE their religious, something is wrong.

If it isn't for you, fine don't. If you feel the Lord is telling you NO then obey, and don't.

Follow your beliefs, keep you nose out of my business. I don't want you telling me what I can / can't do the same as you don't want me dictating to you.

How stupid are some folks that this is lost.

Are the against folks against all alcohol sales? Be cause if you are so worthless and week to resist alcohol on Sunday, how do you make it through the other 6 days sober?

And why promote the lie that drinking isn't happening on Sunday? Do you think people don't overloads on Saturday, just to get the, through the Sunday games?

Oh the hypocrites amoung us!


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## mtnwoman (Jan 1, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> These alcohol threads always bring out the new posters.



I know, would you like to sit down with me and have a chat and have a beer?


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## Israel (Jan 2, 2012)

Beer on Sunday? Of course.
But only if it's OK on Monday and Saturday, too, with every day in between.
If it's OK then, then it's OK.
Either one of two things are being seen; a man by the faith of Christ is clean, or at best he may be 1/7th saved.
All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient.
Both the day I drink beer without the Lord, and the day I think the Lord is "more present" on one day over another, leaves me in an old place.


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## georgia_home (Jan 2, 2012)

Heck yeah!!! are you free next sunday? 



mtnwoman said:


> I know, would you like to sit down with me and have a chat and have a beer?


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## thedeacon (Jan 2, 2012)

Israel said:


> Beer on Sunday? Of course.
> But only if it's OK on Monday and Saturday, too, with every day in between.
> If it's OK then, then it's OK.
> Either one of two things are being seen; a man by the faith of Christ is clean, or at best he may be 1/7th saved.
> ...



Here, Here I agree 100%.

Will this post never end? I looked back at a few of the post and I don't think anyone has changed their mind because of anything being said here.

First of all the state cannot legislate morality, every time. If you can buy beer on Sat., well that kind of takes care of Sunday doesn't it. What is wrong on Sunday well it is for sure wrong on Sat.

Sometimes I think our cap is on crooked when we get involved with such stuff as this. (if you were sitting on my couch I would call it something else)

Some of us are to worried about what people can't do instead  of worrying about what we can do.

Just my opinion. God Bless


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## gtparts (Jan 2, 2012)

Israel said:


> Beer on Sunday? Of course.
> But only if it's OK on Monday and Saturday, too, with every day in between.
> If it's OK then, then it's OK.
> Either one of two things are being seen; a man by the faith of Christ is clean, or at best he may be 1/7th saved.
> ...



In order to express the gratitude for where we are, based on what He has done, we need to sometimes be reminded of the old place, where we were. 

Thanks for the reminder of the freedom found in Christ. My freedom is found in pleasing Him. If it pleases Him, then I am all in. If it does not please Him, count me out, and happily so. True liberty is only found in Jesus. It can only be perceived from the inside, while the world struggles with the idea of a "liberty" that is really eternal bondage to sin.


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## JB0704 (Jan 3, 2012)

brotherslick said:


> be hard to witness to someone any time with a beer in your hand



Only if that person already thought drinking was a sin.....then they would just be judgmental, and a bit misguided IMHO.  It would be a good opportunity to explain freedom.

The greatest Bible study I have ever been a part of almost always had beer present.  If it is not a sin, then it is not a sin.  It only appears as evil to those who think it is a sin.  To those of us who understand how to enjoy responsibly, it is no different than you drinking sweet tea.


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## ambush80 (Jan 3, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Only if that person already thought drinking was a sin.....then they would just be judgmental, and a bit misguided IMHO.  It would be a good opportunity to explain freedom.
> 
> The greatest Bible study I have ever been a part of almost always had beer present.  If it is not a sin, then it is not a sin.  It only appears as evil to those who think it is a sin.  To those of us who understand how to enjoy responsibly, it is no different than you drinking sweet tea.



Sigh..... wish all Christians were as reasonable as you.


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## Jeffriesw (Jan 3, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Sigh..... wish all Christians were as reasonable as you.



Most are, we just don't scream as loudly as the others. 


It's a strange place to find oneself, more "conservative" on an issue than God is.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 3, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Only if that person already thought drinking was a sin.....then they would just be judgmental, and a bit misguided IMHO.  It would be a good opportunity to explain freedom.
> 
> The greatest Bible study I have ever been a part of almost always had beer present.  If it is not a sin, then it is not a sin.  It only appears as evil to those who think it is a sin.  To those of us who understand how to enjoy responsibly, it is no different than you drinking sweet tea.



I agree. 
Only you know what the HS has given you discernment on. Can drinking beer be sinful, of course it can be just like glutony, or gambling or anything else that we are out of control on. Sin means missing the mark. If I'm drunker than cooter brown and driving, is that sinful?...of course it is, cause I'm missing my mark as a responsible human being. Does it state in the bible that drinking and driving is a sin, no it doesn't say that per se but we know that it is wrong, whether we believe in Christ, we are still missing our mark (sinning) when we don't do the right things regarding other people's or even our own safety.


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## brotherslick (Jan 3, 2012)

proverbs  20:1


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## JB0704 (Jan 3, 2012)

brotherslick said:


> proverbs  20:1



I will be sure not to be led astray by either.  Instead, I will enjoy in moderation


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## JB0704 (Jan 3, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Sigh..... wish all Christians were as reasonable as you.



I appreciate it.  As swamp runner said, there are a lot of reasonable Christians out there.  They just aren't the ones who get the most attention.


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## brotherslick (Jan 3, 2012)

To many people out there that the only thing that says they are Christian is there mouth


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