# Thoughts



## BCPerry (Jan 9, 2012)

Hey guys. We started having a debate in class yesterday at church, instead of a discussion. The debate was whether your thoughts constitute a sin. What do you guys think?


----------



## BCPerry (Jan 9, 2012)

He also said something else that shocked me. He stated that because he is saved, he could go out and pull an Adolf Hitler, commit mass murder, and he knows he is still going to heaven. Any comments?


----------



## formula1 (Jan 9, 2012)

*Re:*

My first thought is that I would not be assured of my salvation if I deliberately chose to sin rather than to abide in Him:

I John 3
6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.


----------



## gtparts (Jan 9, 2012)

Matthew 7:21 pretty much deflates the assertion made by this person in your Bible class.

“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter."   - from the NLT -

Jesus' words, not mine.


----------



## Steve Thompson (Jan 9, 2012)

Man can lie to everybody but himself & God.
 Our thoughts and dreams are nothing but a reflection of our reality.


----------



## gtparts (Jan 9, 2012)

Matt. 15:10-20 addresses the origin of the evil that men do.

 10-11He then called the crowd together and said, "Listen, and take this to heart. It's not what you swallow that pollutes your life, but what you vomit up."

 12Later his disciples came and told him, "Did you know how upset the Pharisees were when they heard what you said?"

 13-14Jesus shrugged it off. "Every tree that wasn't planted by my Father in heaven will be pulled up by its roots. Forget them. They are blind men leading blind men. When a blind man leads a blind man, they both end up in the ditch."

 15Peter said, "I don't get it. Put it in plain language."

 16-20Jesus replied, "You, too? Are you being willfully stupid? Don't you know that anything that is swallowed works its way through the intestines and is finally defecated? But what comes out of the mouth gets its start in the heart. It's from the heart that we vomit up evil arguments, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, lies, and cussing. That's what pollutes. Eating or not eating certain foods, washing or not washing your hands—that's neither here nor there."

Sin, start to finish,......
Conceived in our mind.
Pondered in our heart.
Tested in our will.
Expressed in our action.
Confirmed in our practice.
Condemned in our habituation.


----------



## StriperAddict (Jan 9, 2012)

Sometimes devils come in classy clothes. 
We can cross a line in our minds and hearts should the subilty of sin tap on our minds eye.  I'm honestly challenged by Matt 5:28 daily. The power of sin will always be around us, and nagging at our flesh until we come home. But our Lord has defeated sin (of the mind/heart) and we join in His victory by taking thoughts captive in knowing Him and His word. It is the inner man who has victory over these things by the power of the cross, so that when we see our thoughts move off the mark, we can by confession destroy the power of the temptation. Resist the devil and he will flee. 

Keeping it simple... you'll know when you're lusting after the world and the flesh, and when you're not.


----------



## StriperAddict (Jan 9, 2012)

gtparts said:


> Sin, start to finish,......
> Conceived in our mind.
> Pondered in our heart.
> Tested in our will.
> ...


 
Excellent quote.  

I believe there's one more point in the mix that is important for us to understand, and it would come before the "Expressed in our Action" step.... 

to anyone, what is it? 



(BBL)


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Jan 9, 2012)

BCPerry said:


> Hey guys. We started having a debate in class yesterday at church, instead of a discussion. The debate was whether your thoughts constitute a sin. What do you guys think?



Of course your thoughts constitute sin. This was Jesus's message to the religious. They did not commit adultery but he pointed out what was in their heart. Take coveting for example. It is from the mind and only shows itself in some instances. The law did not address man's problems. They were still there only restrained. The New covenant dealt with the heart. As far as your teacher saying he could commit a major sin and still go to heaven was just an extra stupid way of trying to teach irreverable salvation. His example is an oxymoran. No saved person would ever do what he said. I commend you for not swallowing everything your taught in church.


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 9, 2012)

Steve Thompson said:


> Our thoughts and dreams are nothing but a reflection of our reality.



Thoughts, maybe, but dreams?


----------



## BCPerry (Jan 9, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Of course your thoughts constitute sin. This was Jesus's message to the religious. They did not commit adultery but he pointed out what was in their heart. Take coveting for example. It is from the mind and only shows itself in some instances. The law did not address man's problems. They were still there only restrained. The New covenant dealt with the heart. As far as your teacher saying he could commit a major sin and still go to heaven was just an extra stupid way of trying to teach irreverable salvation. His example is an oxymoran. No saved person would ever do what he said. I commend you for not swallowing everything your taught in church.



Now, based on your statement, answer this, when Satan was tempting Jesus, are you telling me that Jesus thought nothing of what he was saying. Now, we know what Jesus did, and we know that what he did is what was going to happen, but do you really believe that the thought didn't even pop in. Even if he did dismiss it as soon as it entered his mind.


----------



## gtparts (Jan 9, 2012)

BCPerry said:


> Now, based on your statement, answer this, when Satan was tempting Jesus, are you telling me that Jesus thought nothing of what he was saying. Now, we know what Jesus did, and we know that what he did is what was going to happen, but do you really believe that the thought didn't even pop in. Even if he did dismiss it as soon as it entered his mind.



I believe that every thought of my Lord and Savior was and is passed through the filter of being perfectly consistent with the will of the Father ("I and the Father are one."). It was an appeal to His humanity, but His humanity did not rule His being. To understand the propositions of Satan does not imply that Jesus ever gave any thought to complying. He immediately, without hesitation, responded with Scripture. We should be so prepared, also.


----------



## gtparts (Jan 9, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Excellent quote.
> 
> I believe there's one more point in the mix that is important for us to understand, and it would come before the "Expressed in our Action" step....
> 
> ...



Perhaps..... "Justified (or rationalized) in our selfish desire (or conscience)."


----------



## Ronnie T (Jan 9, 2012)

James 1:14-15 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Look at the words of those verses carefully.  
Temptations will come.  They came to Jesus.  But Jesus immediately dealt with them rather than allowing them to become sin.
Remember what he said to Peter:  "Get thee behind me satan".

Very good comments from all of you on this question.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jan 9, 2012)

BCPerry said:


> Now, based on your statement, answer this, when Satan was tempting Jesus, are you telling me that Jesus thought nothing of what he was saying. Now, we know what Jesus did, and we know that what he did is what was going to happen, but do you really believe that the thought didn't even pop in. Even if he did dismiss it as soon as it entered his mind.



Thoughts are like a traveling salesman at your front door:  you can politely decline his offer or invite him in.  Jesus declined.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jan 9, 2012)

BCPerry said:


> He also said something else that shocked me. He stated that because he is saved, he could go out and pull an Adolf Hitler, commit mass murder, and he knows he is still going to heaven. Any comments?


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 9, 2012)

BCPerry said:


> He also said something else that shocked me. He stated that because he is saved, he could go out and pull an Adolf Hitler, commit mass murder, and he knows he is still going to heaven. Any comments?



Classic. This is a consequence of being "saved" for a Kingdom to come, or a place in heaven or in the cross over Jordan and not into a Kingdom that is in the here and now according to God's grace and justice.

This classic is  of an ole world of sin and sorrow and although one is saved one is not saved  from this ever fallen world which we are all born to.

Those who hold this doctrine will ever be "saved" yet sinners...because their interaction with a sinful world demands not grace, but in extremes, sinful intervention.

So any thought of acts outside grace and justice is sinful, but acceptable in our "when is Rome" world. In this sense devine forgiveness is an ever and  ongoing patience and was not once and for all. 

This classic explains why christians, take care of number one first, can be excessively competitive, and can dehumanize  other people, and can rub out, enslave and torture "the enemy" and yet still feel quite right with God and Jesus.

I do not hold to this doctrine, yet I ever try to understand its world. 

I am curious. As a peace officer do you assume that every and all citizens are criminal or have engaged in crimial activity to some extent? When you question someone...do you go by this as an "in".


----------



## StriperAddict (Jan 9, 2012)

gtparts said:


> Perhaps..... "Justified (or rationalized) in our selfish desire (or conscience)."


 
Certainly... but what is the catalyst that causes us to rationalise a selfish desire?


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 9, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Certainly... but what is the catalyst that causes us to rationalise a selfish desire?



Doctrine.


----------



## thedeacon (Jan 9, 2012)

BCPerry said:


> Hey guys. We started having a debate in class yesterday at church, instead of a discussion. The debate was whether your thoughts constitute a sin. What do you guys think?



Of course your thoughts can be a sin.


----------



## thedeacon (Jan 9, 2012)

BCPerry said:


> He also said something else that shocked me. He stated that because he is saved, he could go out and pull an Adolf Hitler, commit mass murder, and he knows he is still going to heaven. Any comments?



I would like to know what scripture he uses to justify such behavior.


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 9, 2012)

thedeacon said:


> I would like to know what scripture he uses to justify such behavior.



Some folks think this verse is referring to salvation:

Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. 

I guess if you believe the saved folks (elect) are the only ones God loved, then according to this verse the fella's assertion might be accurate.  Nothing evil you could do could change anything.


----------



## StriperAddict (Jan 9, 2012)

what is the catalyst that causes us to rationalise a selfish desire?



gordon 2 said:


> Doctrine.


 
Ok.  I'll go one step further...

Belief.

If we rationalise sin it is because of a (false) belief at the time we choose to act.

When lust is concieved and enters the next step of sin (coveting, adultery) it is because we BELIEVE the results of our actions trump the truth of scripture, or what God by His Spirit is showing us.  

A believer will let a lingering eye covet such items he cannot have because he BELIEVES he will not suffer any consequences; he justifies it by the "right to fun", etc. 

A believer will justify an outburst of anger because he BELIEVES he has a "right" to fairness in all situations, etc., etc.

As a believer in Christ, I'll admit to jumping over the wall to selfishly coveting worldly things, but as the reasons I BELIEVE I can do that come to the light, the light exposes the systems of false beliefs and changes take place.  

This is why renewing our minds in the presence of the Lord is sooooo critical, by prayerful study of His word. Accountability is a big part also, since as "we confess our faults to one another and pray for one another, we can be healed". 

We have no power of ourselves to conquer the power of sin that pushes at us daily.  We are constantly pressed to become something or someone that God never created us; and all by the world the flesh and the devil.  The great news is Christ has overcome the world, and His life is in us. Only as our new man in Christ grows (or groans) through each life circumstance with His strength, not our own, will we have more and more victories.



gtparts said:


> To understand the propositions of Satan does not imply that Jesus ever gave any thought to complying. He immediately, without hesitation, responded with Scripture. We should be so prepared, also.


 
In the Garden of Gethsemane came perhaps the ultimate battle against sin's power the world had ever seen.  Jesus sweat drops of blood as he fought the temptation to abandon the plan and save his hide from the pain of the cross and worse, the pain of the sins of all mankind.  But He stayed the course. He BELIEVED the results of obedience to the Father were greater rewards than walking away.  

The book of Hebrews says we have not resisted sin to the point of shedding our blood.  

Imagine what would become of our witness if we also didn't care what happened to our hides.  *Revelation 12:11*
"And they overcame him (the accuser of the brethren) because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death." 
Our "dead to sin" inner man knows this, we just have to shed the false and renew our minds in truth.

Finding what causes us to sin by uncovering the _belief system_ at that time will work wonders in sanctification (our behavior becoming more Christlike).


----------



## BCPerry (Jan 9, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Classic. This is a consequence of being "saved" for a Kingdom to come, or a place in heaven or in the cross over Jordan and not into a Kingdom that is in the here and now according to God's grace and justice.
> 
> This classic is  of an ole world of sin and sorrow and although one is saved one is not saved  from this ever fallen world which we are all born to.
> 
> ...



To answer your question, no. I don't believe every person has commited a crime or is engaged in criminal activity.


----------



## gtparts (Jan 9, 2012)

Sin, start to finish,......

Conceived in our mind.
Pondered in our heart.
Tested in our will.
Supported by our erroneous beliefs
Expressed in our action.
Confirmed in our practice.
Condemned in our habituation.

How's that, my friend?

God can and will forgive the one who commits a sin, but He will not forgive the one who chooses to live (dwell) in it.


----------



## thedeacon (Jan 9, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Some folks think this verse is referring to salvation:
> 
> Romans 8:38-39
> 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> ...



No I don't believe the saved folks (elect) are the only ones
God loves, he loves all his children and the sinner is as much the child of God as the saved. The bible says that God will not be slack concerning his commandments. In other words he will hold us responsible for our sins.

That seems to be a problem with us sometimes, how dare God hold me responsible for my sins, the thought of the idea. Sometimes we just don't possess a penitant heart the way God wants us to.

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. 

I believe this verse with all my heart, but I can, on my own, without the help of anyone, or anything, separate myself from the love of God, not meaning God doesn't love me anymore but I by my own choice separate myself from his love. If I don't love God, I have no hope.

If you love me you will keep my commandments.

God Bless


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 9, 2012)

BCPerry said:


> To answer your question, no. I don't believe every person has commited a crime or is engaged in criminal activity.



Yet many define themselves as sinners. Kind of interesting, at least to me. 

The reason I asked is I deal with game wardens and I find they assume that every hunter is guilty of something....


----------



## StriperAddict (Jan 9, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Yet many define themselves as sinners.


 
The heart of the regenerate knows better...  



gtparts said:


> Sin, start to finish,......
> 
> Conceived in our mind.
> Pondered in our heart.
> ...


 
Works for me .

The latter part of your last sentance brings up the topic of addiction... maybe for another thread!


----------



## Israel (Jan 9, 2012)

I knew a man once who had a huge garden of delight and pleasure. He had an immeasurable amount of wonderful things in which he could find joy and life. 
He was told, however, just to avoid doing one thing, and one thing alone. 
In that he discovered this one thing...that "that" one thing he was told to not do was the very thing that absorbed his attention. 

When he discovered another had done that one thing of which he was forbidden and it didn't seem to do in her the very thing he was told it would do in him, he disregarded the thing he was told, and ate. 
And being found to have done that one thing... when he was discovered to have done it...he blamed his fault upon the two, the one who had given him the fruit...and the One who had given him the one who had given him the fruit. 
The very one who had told him "don't do this one thing". 

He was now full of blame for everyone he knew.

He's very much like a man I have known who has often pondered "well, what's the worse that could happen?" Never knowing just how terrible things could be, just as surely as he could never rightly apprehend just how good things were for him. 
He was the man unable to see good when it comes. 

And he didn't know that in the doing that "one thing" he was actually saying "I despise all the good things you have given me". 
He is the man full of regret, only learning of what he had after it was gone.

Later, when he struggled to provide for himself all that was once freely given, and he labored in sweat to find the weariness of being responsible for his own life...he wept.

But never as bitterly as when word came that one of his sons had slaughtered another.

I have known that man that invited all sorts of grief to himself and his own, simply because he refused to see and believe how wonderful he had it...and instead was troubled by the one instruction he had received...but refused to esteem rightly:

 "Do not ever not listen to and believe me"

But now I see another man. He always listens for one voice, and one instruction. 

He invites.

He asks me now...will you keep this garden? What will you let in?


----------



## gtparts (Jan 10, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Some folks think this verse is referring to salvation:
> 
> Romans 8:38-39
> 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> ...



I guess I could state the obvious, but the book of Romans was written to the saints in Rome, those who made up the church there. So the verses you posted, if not taken out of context, speaks of Paul's testimony that saints by virtue of being saved are also transformed. 

But the overriding point of verses 38 & 39 is this: While in many areas, both OT and NT, God has made promises with conditions (I'll do this if you will do this.), God's promise to love his children has no conditions, no restrictions, and no reservations. Think about it! God loves his children and absolutely nothing can change that reality.

The real question to be answered is, "Who are the children of God?".

Therefore, the statement by this teacher concerning a child of God behaving in such an ungodly way is fundamentally true, such is the nature of God's love towards the redeemed. However, in actual practice, it is simply a fabrication to illustrate the degree to which God loves. It assumes that such behavior could be engaged in by the redeemed, the transformed, but that relationship is in total conflict with the suggested behavior. That evil behavior demonstrates the nature of someone who dwells, abides, lives in sin. It is not a single sin followed by genuine contrition and a return to the things of God. It better illustrates the scenario in Luke 13:27 and Matthew 7:23, where Christ will, in the last day, separate the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the tares.


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 10, 2012)

gtparts said:


> I guess I could state the obvious, but the book of Romans was written to the saints in Rome, those who made up the church there. So the verses you posted, if not taken out of context, speaks of Paul's testimony that saints by virtue of being saved are also transformed. .



I follow.  I was not making a blanket statement of my opinion, simply an observation of conclusions which may be drawn.  The scripture I listed is memorized by kids everywhere at a very young age with little reference to context.  That being the case, I understand why a person might come to the conclusion the teacher did.

I agree with your overall point.  But I also personally believe God loves everybody both pre and post salvation, therefore Romans 8:38 is not a statement on eternal security, just a statement on God's awesome love.  It was written to a Roman church, but I think the point of the verse is that God's love is supreme, not "your spot is secured."


----------



## Ronnie T (Jan 10, 2012)

That scripture is almost always used by the "once saved er's" to make their points.
The OP proves how one can be deceived by such use.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Jan 10, 2012)

Steve Thompson said:


> Man can lie to everybody but himself & God.
> Our thoughts and dreams are nothing but a reflection of our reality.



Are schizophrenics exempted from the need for salvation in Christianity?


----------



## StriperAddict (Jan 10, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Are schizophrenics exempted from the need for salvation in Christianity?


 
I'd say get 'em "_both_" saved...

more bang for the buck 


Sorry, I couldn't resist


----------



## stringmusic (Jan 10, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> I'd say get 'em "_both_" saved...
> 
> more bang for the buck
> 
> ...


----------



## mtnwoman (Jan 10, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> I'd say get 'em "_both_" saved...
> 
> more bang for the buck
> 
> ...






Or however many there are....


----------



## Israel (Jan 10, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Are schizophrenics exempted from the need for salvation in Christianity?



I believe you gave the brother, as we used to say, short shrift.

I understand and appreciate your lightheartedness, but there is a truth there you may not care to plumb.
On the face of it, you may think you may have much in common with your brothers in, let's just say for the sake of argument, atheism. You might even be shocked to discover the many realities they have internalized as their modus vivendi, and even be repulsed. 
Trust me or not, the common ground you may think you share with all others who reject a consciousness of God could well leave you in a place of "duck and cover"...no less than the present squabbles you may perceive in those who claim the name of Christ.

I cannot deny the outworking of accepting the reality of Christ by some, to onlookers often appears bizarre. But just as you might say to your brothers "OK, since we accept there is no God, let us press on to a concord in this reality that is worthy of those who discard the notion of deity..." and be no less at odds in the pursuit of "what that *should* mean" than those whose pursuit you presently eschew. 
In short, I truly believe everyone has a notion of what they perceive as the "perfect man" in their consciousness, and are either accused or excused by his presence.
Believers in Christ have accepted their place as those dwelling with everlasting burnings, to paraphrase a prophet. Images must constantly be surrendered in pursuit of what they have confessed as real;  a continuous uprooting, subtraction and addition, so that they no longer dwell in the place of shadows, but true substance. Yet they do this in a place where mercy and grace become manifest as ever more present and ever more needful. 

And, yes, we have accepted being consigned to the opprobrium associated with being "crazy" to the world.

We will watch as the worldlings struggle to bring forth the manifestation of their own perfect man. And in time, he will appear, and fully inhabit a body, which, if you saw and beheld with any modicum of spiritual insight you would flee this instant. He is the full manifestation of all that is without grace, and shows no mercy.

He is no more nor less than all I would be without the Lord. The beast from beneath.

May you not share in his judgments.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Jan 10, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> I'd say get 'em "_both_" saved...
> 
> more bang for the buck
> 
> ...



You might be thinking of dissociative identity disorder.  Schizophrenia involves hallucinations, delusions, paranoia, etc.  I doubt such patients enjoy their disease.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Jan 10, 2012)

Israel said:


> I understand and appreciate your lightheartedness



Nope, it was a serious question about your doctrine.  Sorry you typed all that out needlessly.


----------



## Israel (Jan 11, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Nope, it was a serious question about your doctrine.  Sorry you typed all that out needlessly.


Then, if indeed you are serious, all the more need.


----------



## gtparts (Jan 11, 2012)

BCPerry said:


> He also said something else that shocked me. He stated that because he is saved, he could go out and pull an Adolf Hitler, commit mass murder, and he knows he is still going to heaven. Any comments?



One last observation or, perhaps, clarification seems warranted.

The state of one claiming to be "of Christ", yea, redeemed of the Lord, is apparent when one considers that the term or title of "Lord and Savior" is one inseparable appellation, one declaration. Anyone can assert that one stands as "saved", but if the claim fails to recognize and the actions fail to support Christ's lordship, then there is no transformation. The one who would, 





> "pull an Adolf Hitler, commit mass murder, and he knows he is still going to heaven"


 is still a slave to sin. Since we are bought with a price, we are to become slaves to God. 

How unfortunate and unwise to claim to be saved, yet repudiate that notion with ones actions. Jesus concluded just that scenario with these words, "Depart from me. I never knew you." He will not hesitate to repeat them on the last day.

Yes, the passage describes right actions and wrong motives. It is just as ridiculous to have right motives and persist in wrong actions.

Our motivations and our actions are uniquely and intimately connected.


----------



## Israel (Jan 11, 2012)

gtparts said:


> One last observation or, perhaps, clarification seems warranted.
> 
> The state of one claiming to be "of Christ", yea, redeemed of the Lord, is apparent when one considers that the term or title of "Lord and Savior" is one inseparable appellation, one declaration. Anyone can assert that one stands as "saved", but if the claim fails to recognize and the actions fail to support Christ's lordship, then there is no transformation. The one who would  is still a slave to sin. Since we are bought with a price, we are to become slaves to God.
> 
> ...



well said brother.
Some imagine their devotions and salvation are to a doctrinal stance instead of a person.
Grace is not something that cannot be broken except by those who have not yet seen how willingly Jesus was broken to deliver it.
It's easier for us to imagine we apprehend things and notions, and deceive ourselves thereby.
Salvation is a person.

He not only speaks for us. 

On our side, we learn to let him speak instead of us. 

Or not.


----------



## StriperAddict (Jan 11, 2012)

Israel said:


> well said brother.
> Some imagine their devotions and salvation are to a doctrinal stance instead of a person.
> Grace is not something that cannot be broken except by those who have not yet seen how willingly Jesus was broken to deliver it.
> It's easier for us to imagine we apprehend things and notions, and deceive ourselves thereby.
> ...


 
Equally well said.  I'd have a new sig line if the quote fit...



> Grace is not something that cannot be broken except by those who have not yet seen how willingly Jesus was broken to deliver it.


----------



## thomas the redneck (Feb 16, 2012)

i dont think i have posted here before but couldnt help on this subject it is a topic an ex wife an i had talked about this before
she also thought once saved allways saved i do not belive this i think being saved washes you of past sins. now i cannot quote the bible i have read it some parts a few times. and this is just my take on it .


----------



## barryl (Feb 16, 2012)

John 3:16    For God so Loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have "everlasting Life".     KJV 1611


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 17, 2012)

barryl said:


> John 3:16    For God so Loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have "everlasting Life".     KJV 1611


Why would it not be possible for your beliefs to change? I also have a hard time believing that you can except Jesus as your Savior and go on living however you want to just to ask for forgiveness later. I know works don't get you into Heaven but they do enter into the equation somehow.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 17, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I also have a hard time believing that you can except Jesus as your Savior and go on living however you want to just to ask for forgiveness later. I know works don't get you into Heaven but they do enter into the equation somehow.



This made me think of the book of James.  The author kind-of makes me think of folks like Huntinfool (meant to be complimentary), very "in your face" and blunt.  There are a lot of nuggets in there.  One of them addresses how works interact with faith:

James 2:17-18
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

It's not that works accomplish salvation, but that salvation produces works.  That's my take on it, anyway.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 17, 2012)

If Huntinfool believes "once saved always saved" is wrong then I'll finally get to agree with him on something!


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 18, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I guess if you believe the saved folks (elect) are the only ones God loved, then according to this verse the fella's assertion might be accurate.  Nothing evil you could do could change anything.



Seems to me he would have to believe he was predestined and nothing could change that no matter what he did, so I agree totally.


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> If Huntinfool believes "once saved always saved" is wrong then I'll finally get to agree with him on something!



Edited to add, please read entire post before you'ns jump my bones...lol

Well I do believe once saved always saved, I just don't believe that I could even think I could/would go out and kill a mob of people, if truly I was saved, unless I believed I was predestined/elected by God, then I guess I could think however I wanted to, I'm good to go. I don't believe anyone that is truly saved would even say anything like that, unless they felt chosen/special....not even the ones who believe they are of the elect would think they could do anything like that, unless they just think they are of the elect and they aren't or maybe not even saved. Not condemning the guy, but sheesh that was a pretty scary/delusions of grandure statement for someone to make.  I don't think any Christian around here would even believe anything like that.


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why would it not be possible for your beliefs to change? I also have a hard time believing that you can except Jesus as your Savior and go on living however you want to just to ask for forgiveness later. I know works don't get you into Heaven but they do enter into the equation somehow.



Works do not get us into heaven, but we will be judged on them once we get there. I better git busy!!


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 18, 2012)

thomas the redneck said:


> i dont think i have posted here before but couldnt help on this subject it is a topic an ex wife an i had talked about this before
> she also thought once saved allways saved i do not belive this i think being saved washes you of past sins. now i cannot quote the bible i have read it some parts a few times. and this is just my take on it .



Been there and thought that, too.

But Jesus says once you are saved that nothing can snatch you out of the palm of His hand. He proved that to me. If you are truly saved then you will always be saved. I believe the only way to lose that salvation is to extinquish/blaspheme the Holy Spirit which is about impossible if you are saved.

We will always sin, no matter how hard we try not to. We are covered under the blood and our relationship with the Holy Spirit convicts us to do the right things. We will mess up, no doubt. I continue to ask for forgiveness, some people think you don't have to. As soon as I say a bad word, I ask for forgiveness immediately for example, I'm instantly convicted that it was wrong for me to say that, especially if I'm saying it to another person.

We don't have to be perfect to be saved we just have to believe what John 3:16 says. It is impossible for me to commit some of the sins I used to commit. But I will still slip up on some stuff.

Happy for you to be here with us


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> If Huntinfool believes "once saved always saved" is wrong then I'll finally get to agree with him on something!



I was only commenting on how his style compares to the author of James.  I am not certain what he believes about salvation.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why would it not be possible for your beliefs to change? I also have a hard time believing that you can except Jesus as your Savior and go on living however you want to just to ask for forgiveness later. I know works don't get you into Heaven but they do enter into the equation somehow.



I totally agree with you and it is scripture such as Romans chapter 8.  Actually, chap's 7 and 8.  To totally understand it, include chapter 6 in there also.

Works will not save us, but a person who has received God's spirit will have their life transformed, by the power of God.

"12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 

Romans 6, 7, and 8 are very instructive concerning how one goes from the struggle of living a worldly life to living as sons of God.


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 18, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> I totally agree with you and it is scripture such as Romans chapter 8.  Actually, chap's 7 and 8.  To totally understand it, include chapter 6 in there also.
> 
> Works will not save us, but a person who has received God's spirit will have their life transformed, by the power of God.
> 
> ...



Amen!!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 18, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I was only commenting on how his style compares to the author of James.  I am not certain what he believes about salvation.



I understood you didn't know what his belief was on said subject. Just figured he'd make his way here soon. I respect and welcome his views.


----------



## barryl (Feb 19, 2012)

*Saved and Secure*

I am so tired of people who claim to be Blood bought Children of God as well as people who are not Saved, calling God a Liar!!! Jesus Christ only one time, went to the Cross, willingly, to pay the sin Debt for all Men!!! Why would God put his [sinless perfect] Reputation on the line to keep me, if he couldn’t? Sooner or later all men have to decide who their Final Authority is, God, or Yourself!!! 1 Cor. 1:18-27; 1 Cor. 2:14; Isa.55:8-9.  You know, Truth, is never popular, the only way one will ever come to the knowledge of the Truth, is to SEEK TRUTH !!! Now here’s truth, God’s Word, John 17: 17! I have the living word of God in my hands, KJV 1611 Bible, inerrant, infallible, inspired, [Perfectly Preserved] Word of God !!!!!! All, not parts! 2 Tim. 2:15; 2 Tim. 3:15-17;  Prov. 3: 3-8.  You folks that think you can lose you’re Salvation, YOU can’t lose it because YOU didn’t give it !!!!!!!!!!! Who did? Eph. 2:4-10.  The book of Romans and Gal. also explain salvation. Once Saved, you bet your life!  I take God’s Word for it!!!  My proof text to prove that I do is 1 Cor. 6:19-20:   “What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost, which is in you, which ye have of God, and YE ARE NOT YOUR OWN? For ye are BOUGHT with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, WHICH ARE GOD’S.”  There are many other verses of scripture regarding this subject.  I know you will say there is scripture to contradict this, only through private interpretation!! 2 Peter 1:19-21; Romans 3:4; John 14:26   You can go ahead and be lazy and not do what II Timothy 2:15 tells us to do or you can seek the Truth.  Now if you disagree, tough.   This is God’s Word.  You will have to take that up with Him.   II Timothy 3:5-7 – Chapter 3 is a good chapter to study to find out where we as individuals stand.  My prayer is that any one that has questions concerning what is written above will not rely on their head knowledge, but look at what God looks at – your heart.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 19, 2012)

John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'" 
1 John 4:14, "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world." 
Jesus died for everyone. Everyone is not going to Heaven. Does that make God a liar?


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 19, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'"
> 1 John 4:14, "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."
> Jesus died for everyone. Everyone is not going to Heaven. Does that make God a liar?



Oh goodness.......the Calvinists will be here soon....


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 19, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'"
> 1 John 4:14, "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."
> Jesus died for everyone. Everyone is not going to Heaven. Does that make God a liar?



Dat's right! God wishes  for no one to perish, but because we have free will, some people will not choose God, even though He offered them salvation/redemption...they will not accept it...they turn away.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 19, 2012)

John 10:29
New Living Translation (©2007)
For my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else.   
Thought #1) Why is God more powerful than Jesus?
Thought #2) (except the person himself. Don't you believe in free will?)


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 20, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 10:29
> New Living Translation (©2007)
> For my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else.
> Thought #1) Why is God more powerful than Jesus?
> Thought #2) (except the person himself. Don't you believe in free will?)



Who is this post for, me? since I posted last before yours, or just for anyone?

Thanks


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 20, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Who is this post for, me? since I posted last before yours, or just for anyone?
> 
> Thanks



Just for anyone, but i would like to hear your response.


----------



## barryl (Feb 20, 2012)

Since I qualify as anyone, a. d., I'll do like you do, answer a question with a question!! Prov. 3:1-7, Job 5:13, 1 Cor. 3:19 KJV 1611


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 20, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 10:29
> New Living Translation (©2007)
> For my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else.
> Thought #1) Why is God more powerful than Jesus?
> Thought #2) (except the person himself. Don't you believe in free will?)



I'm not sure I follow you but if I understand what you're asking, I'll use this text, to answer you...even though it's a few more verses, it sort of all fits together.

John 10:27-29
King James Version (KJV)

 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 

 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 

 29My Father, *which gave them me*, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I'll use my own personal experience, so as not to speak for everyone.

I'll keep it short....

I was truly saved at 12 and fell away about 11 yrs later. For about 25 or so years I hid from God. At His time, He left the 90 and 9 and brought me back to Himself because I belonged to Him. Nothing, no man, no thing could snatch me away forever because I belonged to Him from age 12 on, whether I wanted to believe it or hid from it or whatever.
God gave Him(Jesus) to us, for us, to save us, to redeem us. Jesus was our scapegoat, He paid for our sins. He did it, we agree He did and we become His forever and ever.

Obviously I have free will to run away and free will to come back...however it took more power than I had to get back, so when brought to my knees and cried out to God for help...He snatched me back, in a heartbeat, in the twinkling of an eye, literally in one moment I changed. Stopped smoking ciggys, stopped drinking and partying and went straight back to God. No days for weaning off anything, I mean cold turkey...I was redeemed and delivered....Hallelujah to the Lamb of God, I'm havin' church up in here on Monday mornin...gettin' myself all up in the Holy Ghost just speaking of what Jesus did for and showed me.

I believe Jesus is saying that His Father is more powerful than any man on earth (and satan/demons) to not be able to seduce us, tempt us, snatch us away from Him if once we first believed.

Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine....because God gave Him to us.

I believe we have free will, but I think there are boundaries that God will not allow us to cross by using conviction. Even in my fallen days there were things that others around me would do, that were just beyond my boundaries. Not that one sin is greater, there were just things and places I would not go....now of course I understand why.  Now I know why I was only addicted to a lifestyle that I escaped from. I was never addicted to any drug or alcohol and now I know why. I couldn't understand others around me that would fall into that and even if I was their friend, I didn't. I know why now....nothing will snatch me out of the palm of His hand...and that's also why I believe once saved always saved.

Ok, I'll stop.

Love,
Ramblin Rose...


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 20, 2012)

Great testimony MtnWoman, The question I was asking about John 10:29 was about the second half of the verse that I accidentally left off and it is, No one can pluck them from my Fathers hands but could you yourself do the plucking? You did answer you had free will to run away but do you have free will to stay away?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 20, 2012)

barryl said:


> Since I qualify as anyone, a. d., I'll do like you do, answer a question with a question!! Prov. 3:1-7, Job 5:13, 1 Cor. 3:19 KJV 1611


For it is written, “He is the One Who catches the wise in their craftiness"; and again, “the Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless.” (1 Corinthians 3:19b-20)
Those were interesting verses that I have never read before. I assure you I am not "wise in my craftiness".
Craftiness means a skill in deception, shyness, an Artful Dodger. 
I've used Artful Dodger who was the pick pocket in Oliver Twist since I purchased a 65 Dodge years ago if that's what you are alluding to.
Now you could accuse me of being "Religiously educated beyond my intelligence" and I might agree as others on this forum have insinuated.


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 20, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Great testimony MtnWoman, The question I was asking about John 10:29 was about the second half of the verse that I accidentally left off and it is, No one can pluck them from my Fathers hands but could you yourself do the plucking? You did answer you had free will to run away but do you have free will to stay away?



No, I don't have free will to stay away...it says nothing can pluck us out of His hand, and that includes our ownselves...that's why I believe once saved always saved...nothing means nothing in my opinion.

I'm not sure I can explain this exactly, but I'll do my best...

I believe most all of us have free will to accept Christ or not and I believe some are chosen, like Paul, Jonah...God has to use someone and He chose them, ordinary men perhaps?...maybe.

Once I became His, He ultimately has control over me if He chooses. I have free will at this moment to go out to a club/bar and get hammered, but I won't, that desire has been taken away, I ask and received.  I ask God to take the desire of needing 'a' man and the pain of being lonely away, and He did. Do I believe that I could go out and find a man tonight? yes, I think I could. But at this moment I don't have that desire, it's as if I'm bound like an ocean between the ebbs and flows, very calm, and peaceful though. I know in my mind it would be natural to go find a husband, but I told God if He wanted me to get married He'd have to send someone along for me....I'm not pickin' another one myself. So He gives me peace and joy that I myself cannot understand in that area. I'm alone but not lonely, and no one knows how thankful I am for that because I've spent a few times in my life being hurt and lonely.

I hope that makes sense. I'm trying to use things that most people can relate to when it comes to expressing how I believe in free will. I can do those things, but God has given me peace and joy without those things, so in some kind of way He has a rein on my will because I gave Him the reins when I surrendered my life to Him.  His will for me, works better than my will for me....and I'm grateful for that, too.

Hope that makes sense.


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 20, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> For it is written, “He is the One Who catches the wise in their craftiness"; and again, “the Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless.” (1 Corinthians 3:19b-20)
> Those were interesting verses that I have never read before. I assure you I am not "wise in my craftiness".
> Craftiness means a skill in deception, shyness, an Artful Dodger.
> I've used Artful Dodger who was the pick pocket in Oliver Twist since I purchased a 65 Dodge years ago if that's what you are alluding to.
> Now you could accuse me of being "Religiously educated beyond my intelligence" and I might agree as others on this forum have insinuated.



Guess I really have been sheltered. I wondered what Artful Dodger meant....now I know...it was a person in a book I've never read, only heard of. I don't think you fit that description.


----------

