# Venus Flytrap...another amazing creature that defies evolution.



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 13, 2011)

http://crev.info/content/110912-venus_flytrap_de_darwinized


interesting read on how this plant does what it does...


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 13, 2011)

It's very interesting. I've seen several shows on things like this. One is a giraffe, how his heart, valves and other vascular organs work. Specifically, a huge heart to pump way up to his head but his head doesn't explode when he slumps over for some water... because of how all the rest of it works together. So how did that evovle? The first one to realize he didn't have what it took, died... it couldn't continue evolving... For this particular example there is one VERY important assumption being made... That the giraffe has always had a long neck. 

I may take the time to read (gah, I hate reading) the link.. but from that show I saw that they were leaving out the big picture of evolution and just taking in to account specific parts of the organism to say it couldn't have evolved, when just logically thinking from someone who took 4 biology classes in college, thinking about the whole thing can easily become feasible.


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## bullethead (Sep 13, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> http://crev.info/content/110912-venus_flytrap_de_darwinized
> 
> 
> interesting read on how this plant does what it does...



Brought to you by the makers of:
http://masterplanassociation.org/index.html


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 13, 2011)

I have a Master... I wonder if he's a mutant rat from Japan.


I read it... They refer to Darwin specifically a lot. Did Darwin himself ever claim to have all of the answers to the complete evolution of all species? It asks - how does Darwin account for that? Are we supposed to ask him? If he was alive and still studying maybe he'd have the answer. 

Bandy, when was the last time you understood how a plant species in a fly infested swamp dealt with it's existence over millions of years? Understand that, or how anything deals with it's own existence over millions of years and I'll take your word for it. And no, I'm not taking the other side's word for it either. I'm siding with what makes more sense to me.


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## ambush80 (Sep 13, 2011)

Also from the page:

_Creation Scientist of the Month

Thomas Young
1773 - 1829

Like the great mathematician Leonhard Euler, Thomas Young was one of those rare individuals with such awesome intellectual powers it makes one marvel at the potential in one human brain.  And if one thinks intelligence leads to skepticism, Young would disagree.  He maintained his childlike faith and moral uprightness throughout his all-to-brief life of 56 years.  Click his name to read more._



Is childlike faith really something to be admired in someone who claims to be a scientist?


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## ambush80 (Sep 13, 2011)

Bandersnatch,

What would you like science teachers to say to students about the age of the Earth, the fossil record and genetic sequencing?


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## bullethead (Sep 13, 2011)

I didn't get this at Staples, but that was easy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8151000/8151644.stm


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## CAL (Sep 13, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Is childlike faith really something to be admired in someone who claims to be a scientist?



Matthew 18; 3
Verily I say unto you,Except ye be converted and become as little children,ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 13, 2011)

As little children - and do what I say no matter how stupid it may sound. Even if it's not really right because you're too stupid to understand... Just like don't eat from the tree of knowledge, because I'd prefer you stupid.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 13, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> http://crev.info/content/110912-venus_flytrap_de_darwinized
> 
> 
> interesting read on how this plant does what it does...




And I know this goes both ways... For both of us... You feel compelled that science can explain this in a sufficient way that defies evolution, but you also would argue (I suppose) that a lot of science that explains thing in a sufficient way to defy your belief, is wrong.  Science that seems good for you is right, otherwise, it's wrong. For me, it's science that is not yet complete does little to help a no creator scenario, but it doesn't negate the idea. While the more complete (not totally) science does a lot to support what I find more likely.


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## ambush80 (Sep 13, 2011)

CAL said:


> Matthew 18; 3
> Verily I say unto you,Except ye be converted and become as little children,ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.




"but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

I'm made sure my daughter knows the difference between reality and fairy tales.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 11, 2011)

> - and do what I say no matter how stupid it may sound. Even if it's not really right because you're too stupid to understand... Just like don't eat from the tree of knowledge, because I'd prefer you stupid.



Awefully cynical, don't ya think?

This post reads as if the knowledge of Evil is a positive experience.  We've been talking about how God could allow such evil as to watch a little girl be stalked by a vulture.  So I think we all agree that it would be better if evil not be in the earth.

Do you tell your kids not to stick their fingers in the meat grinder when you process a deer and you have to walk away for a moment?

You'd prefer them stay "stupid" in that sense, huh?


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## Huntinfool (Oct 11, 2011)

> I'm made sure my daughter knows the difference between reality and fairy tales.



She must have had an awefully boring childhood.


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## bigreddwon (Oct 11, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> She must have had an awefully boring childhood.



I really doubt that. The knowledge that some things are real and some make believe doesn't harm a child or stifle their awesome imagination. Kind of arrogant on your part to assume that, in my humble opinion..


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## Huntinfool (Oct 12, 2011)

> I really doubt that. The knowledge that some things are real and some make believe doesn't harm a child or stifle their awesome imagination. Kind of arrogant on your part to assume that, in my humble opinion..



humble...and your opinion...in the same sentence.  Now there's a concept I wouldn't have envisioned.

No Cinderella.  No Sleeping Beauty.  No Santa Clause.  No Easter Bunny.  No Super Woman.

You realize that imagination...is often making things up that aren't real....right?


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## ambush80 (Oct 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> She must have had an awefully boring childhood.



She has pretend, invisible friends.  She also knows that Gram and Gramps have a pretend, invisible friend named Jesus.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 12, 2011)

But I thought you made sure she knew the difference between reality and fairy tales...


Who's indoctrinating their children to believe certain things?


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## applejuice (Oct 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> But I thought you made sure she knew the difference between reality and fairy tales...
> 
> 
> Who's indoctrinating their children to believe certain things?



Everyone does, its called parenting


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## Huntinfool (Oct 12, 2011)

You're 100% correct.  Somehow, though, when Christians do it, it's bad and called indoctrination.

I've had a hard time getting folks in here to admit that they do it to their own kids.

Typically I get "No!  I let them think for themselves!"...which is pure stuff that comes out the back end of a bull.


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## applejuice (Oct 12, 2011)

Well you raise your children the way that you see fit and when they are grown they will either side with you or make their own path. 
Its like politics, im voting for x because my dad and grandad do. Everyone has a bias teaching toward their kids, just the way it works. 

A child taught to think for themselves is preparing them for this world. Dont believe everything you hear, think about it and research yourself. 

Skepticism is a very useful tool


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## JB0704 (Oct 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Typically I get "No!  I let them think for themselves!"...which is pure stuff that comes out the back end of a bull.



You can let your kids think for themselves, and teach them what you think.  

Kind-of like "this is why I believe what I believe," as opposed to "this is what it is."


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## Huntinfool (Oct 12, 2011)

If you tell your 7 YO that you think Ronald Reagan is the best President this country has ever seen and then tell them why...who do you think they will tell people is the best President this country has ever seen?

Parental influence is the single greatest factor for the opinions of young children.  They will believe what you believe whether you want them to or not.  Why do you think they take "mock polls" in schools before political elections?  It's not because they care what the kids think.

Teach your kids how to think.  Absolutely.  But just please don't tell me that you don't influence their opinions or ideas.


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## JB0704 (Oct 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> If you tell your 7 YO that you think Ronald Reagan is the best President this country has ever seen and then tell them why...who do you think they will tell people is the best President this country has ever seen?
> 
> Parental influence is the single greatest factor for the opinions of young children.  They will believe what you believe whether you want them to or not.  Why do you think they take "mock polls" in schools before political elections?  It's not because they care what the kids think.
> 
> Teach your kids how to think.  Absolutely.  But just please don't tell me that you don't influence their opinions or ideas.



Any teaching is influence.  I agree with you there.  I was just pointing out, what I see, the difference between teaching and indoctrinating a kid is.

I tell my kid why I believe what I believe, and am not afraid of him hearing counter-points, I often present them.  A good example is politics, I tell him why I am conservative, and why folks are liberal.  At eleven, he takes my side.  When he is twenty five, he will know why because I was willing to tell him "why" when he was eleven instead of saying "conservative is right, I said it, that settles it."


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## ambush80 (Oct 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> But I thought you made sure she knew the difference between reality and fairy tales...
> 
> 
> Who's indoctrinating their children to believe certain things?




She knows what invisible is and she knows what pretend is.  When she sees people praying, she makes the connection.


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