# Can Atheist teach the Gospel?



## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

The thread on Bart Ehrman and some readings I have read by Davis D. Danizer have me wondering. Is it wrong to use the teachings of Atheist? They aren't trying to divide or persuade. They are well informed about the bible. Some of them are former Christians. 
Jesus said "you are either with me or against me.
then there is the verse about God making all vessels for his own purposes. Some for good, some for bad. Could he have made Atheist vessels  to be great teachers?

Davis D. Danizer:
Many who have read my commentaries have jumped to inaccurate conclusions about the tone and intent of these writings, as well as to incorrect conclusions about my purposes and background. First of all, I want to make it very clear that this is not an "anti-Christian" work, and is not meant to attack or insult the deeply-held beliefs of Christians.

I know from the occasional hate mail (and e-mail) I have received that many will interpret these ideas in a negative way, and as personal insults against themselves and their beliefs.

Clearly it is my intent to challenge the beliefs of Christians and give them something to think about that they probably haven't seriously considered before.

Clearly I reject beliefs about Jesus that transform this wondrous teacher and insightful prophet into a god or messiah -- or Christ. But I hope that my sincere affection for this man and his wonderful teachings shows through, especially as I defend his original message against the attacks from the "apostle" Paul who I believe has done more to undermine Christianity than anyone else in history.

I do not hate Chritianity or Christians, though I question some of the things the more evangelical sects believe in. I was raised a conservative Christian and grew up believing the Bible to be the inerrant and infallible word of God. I was active in Christian youth groups and during my teenage years converted other friends to the faith. Most of my family and many of my closest friends maintain a strong and abiding faith in the Christian beliefs and believe me to be sadly in error, but because they know me personally and know that I am sincere, they tolerate me with the hopeful optimism I will return like the lost sheep to the fold (hmmm, perhaps the "sheep" metaphor is appropriate here).

http://www.wordwiz72.com/danizier/


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

I would add that the two mentioned above just teach the Bible. They don't even have a dog in the hunt to convert anyone, just teach.
They might do more of a service to Christianity than Benny Hinn or Joel Osteen. Benny Hinn accuses Joel Osteen for not staying biblical in his teachings. I believe Osteen said there could be other paths to Heaven than Jesus. I don't believe they are false prophets, just letting their own beliefs get in the way. Someone else mentioned there is a lot in their teachings that is good and correct and biblical. You just have to overlook the part you don't agree with. What about new converts that don't know any better?


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## formula1 (Feb 27, 2013)

*Re:*

Matthew 10:24 
A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 

2 Peter 2:1 
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 5
10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

2 John 1
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 

2 John 1
9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

No Master, No Message, No Testimony, No Life,  and No Gospel.  It is not possible that a deceiver and false teacher has anything good to teach that would benefit the Gospel. The  scriptures even tell us if you welcome him, you take part in his works!


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## stringmusic (Feb 27, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is it wrong to use the teachings of Atheist?


Yes, as Formula1 has wonderfully point out.



> They aren't trying to divide or persuade.


Do you really believe that?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Do you really believe that?



I've read some of their teachings, I didn't see any persuasion to me leaving my faith. Is an Atheist teaching about God, worse than a person who believes in another God teaching me about my God? Or is that wrong too? What about a Jewish teacher who believes in the same God as me but not Jesus?


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## stringmusic (Feb 27, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've read some of their teachings, I didn't see any persuasion to me leaving my faith.


Really? All the "Jesus is not the Christ" and "Jesus didn't really exist" stuff didn't throw a red flag?




> Is an Atheist teaching about God, worse than a person who believes in another God teaching me about my God? Or is that wrong too? What about a Jewish teacher who believes in the same God as me but not Jesus?



I can only refer you back to the verses in post #3


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Really? All the "Jesus is not the Christ" and "Jesus didn't really exist" stuff didn't throw a red flag?
> 
> I can only refer you back to the verses in post #3



That wasn't in the video I watched. I thought he believed Jesus did exist. We all have different beliefs on who Jesus is but that's a different subject. At least we know they are Atheist. The "tares" in the Church are the ones to watch out for. Hard to figure out who they are. They might be in the pulpit, Sunday School teacher, on an internet blog, or  someone on this forum.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 27, 2013)

Bart would make the best Sunday school teacher that anyone has ever heard. As long as you are teaching the bible and what it says. You guys know my beliefs, I'm Unitarian, but Bart is supporting your beliefs, claiming that Paul taught a high Christology. I have tried to change his mind


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

Bart believes Jesus existed. He doesn't believe in Jesus' diety.


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## stringmusic (Feb 27, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> He doesn't believe in Jesus' diety.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 27, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Bart believes Jesus existed. He doesn't believe in Jesus' diety.


Bart is not atheist. He is agnostic. Way more agnostics in the world than atheist yet they all get called atheist. Atheist have pondered it over and come to the conclusion that no god exist. Agnostics have pondered it over and have determined that there very well may be a higher power. Bart knows the bible and biblical history/jewish life/ conflicts/geography/economy/etc better than 25 preachers put together. This is why he would make such a great bible teacher. But not when it comes to applying as a preacher does


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## Huntinfool (Feb 27, 2013)

He may very well know the Bible and biblical history.  

He is not, however, filled with the Holy Spirit and does not have either the eyes to see nor the ears to hear that a follower of Christ has.

Anyone who has read the Word of God deeply and intimately and has spent years and years pouring over it and come away with "Eh....I'm not sure." would in no way make a "great Bible teacher".  

He may make a great teacher of what the Bible says.  But his biblical expertise stops there.  He does not understand what it says.  We know that with 100% certainty.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 27, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> He may very well know the Bible and biblical history.
> 
> He is not, however, filled with the Holy Spirit and does not have either the eyes to see nor the ears to hear that a follower of Christ has.
> 
> ...



Bingo.

Might be able to teach religion...but the gospel?  How can anyone who hasn't experienced a subject fully teach it?


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## WTM45 (Feb 27, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> He may very well know the Bible and biblical history.
> 
> He is not, however, filled with the Holy Spirit and does not have either the eyes to see nor the ears to hear that a follower of Christ has.



There it is, the doctrine of "annointment" or "select few!"

Is it predetermined?

Reason I bring this up is because WHY HAS HE NOT BEEN VISITED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT?   One would think that would easily occur when one devotes that much time, energy and effort into the study.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 27, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> One would think that would easily occur when one devotes that much time, energy and effort into the study.


Why would one think that?


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## stringmusic (Feb 27, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> Reason I bring this up is because WHY HAS HE NOT BEEN VISITED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT?


because...


Artfuldodger said:


> He doesn't believe in Jesus' diety.


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## WTM45 (Feb 27, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Why would one think that?



How else does one find themselves in contact with and emotionally responding to an unseen, previously unknown or uncontacted part of the Trinity, the "Holy Ghost" which will "convict" them to repent and believe with full faith what they have been investigating at length?

Why would that "Holy Ghost" not make a move towards one who is actively seeking all they can find regarding that belief system?  It would take that "conviction" to refute the disbelief in Christ's deity!


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## WTM45 (Feb 27, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Why would one think that?



Seems only rational that those SEEKING would be more likely to be visited than those who are not.

Ironic how the most knowledgeable in a belief system tend to be the ones most questioning of that system.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 27, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> How else does one find themselves in contact with and emotionally responding to an unseen, previously unknown or uncontacted part of the Trinity, the "Holy Ghost" which will "convict" them to repent and believe with full faith what they have been investigating at length?
> 
> Why would that "Holy Ghost" not make a move towards one who is actively seeking all they can find regarding that belief system?  It would take that "conviction" to refute the disbelief in Christ's deity!


"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8)


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## WTM45 (Feb 27, 2013)

The mystery.  Leads some to believe in predetermination, others to believe it is a fable, and even others to feel they are somewhat superior to others as THEY are "chosen."

And I know the verses that apply to all three...


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 27, 2013)

Based on the wording of the OP [gospel], I have to say no. But can he teach the bible. Yes. In Erhman's bible classes, many are not aware that he is not a christian. He teaches the entire semester without showing biased either way. The last day of class is opitional where he describes his view


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## gemcgrew (Feb 27, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> Seems only rational that those SEEKING would be more likely to be visited than those who are not.


I was not seeking. It does not appear rational to me.


WTM45 said:


> Ironic how the most knowledgeable in a belief system tend to be the ones most questioning of that system.


Nice deflection.


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## Lowjack (Feb 27, 2013)

An Atheist teaching the Gospel is like HAsatan quoting the bible


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## WTM45 (Feb 27, 2013)

No deflection, just a rational observation which happens to be true.

Odds should only increase when one is actively searching for something using the correct tools.  As an example, maybe you found gold looking down while walking the sidewalk.  Good thing.  But would not one who is in a proven gold area, who is using a pan correctly more likely to find gold?


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## WTM45 (Feb 27, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> An Atheist teaching the Gospel is like HAsatan quoting the bible



Tell us how you know the difference in an Atheist or "HAsatan" and a believer without them telling you!  

Fruit?


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## gemcgrew (Feb 27, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> The mystery.  Leads some to believe in predetermination, others to believe it is a fable, and even others to feel they are somewhat superior to others as THEY are "chosen."


What mystery? There is no mystery in that which is revealed. Is it a mystery to you?


WTM45 said:


> And I know the verses that apply to all three...


Congratulations! Does it remain a mystery to you?


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## WTM45 (Feb 27, 2013)

I'm sure to those who are "predestined" it is not a mystery.
They can enjoy their superiority.

Whether a graduate level professor or gospel evangelist, even the appeal to emotion tactic is not always foolproof in convincing the masses to believe.  All religious belief systems use it often.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 27, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> No deflection, just a rational observation which happens to be true.


Do you get to determine what is rational and true? What do you base what is rational and true upon? 


WTM45 said:


> Odds should only increase when one is actively searching for something using the correct tools.  As an example, maybe you found gold looking down while walking the sidewalk.  Good thing.  But would not one who is in a proven gold area, who is using a pan correctly more likely to find gold?


Seriously? I am getting bored already.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 27, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> I'm sure to those who are "predestined" it is not a mystery.
> They can enjoy their superiority.


In what way are they superior? Do you sense that they have a superior means of understanding what is true?


WTM45 said:


> Whether a graduate level professor or gospel evangelist, even the appeal to emotion tactic is not always foolproof in convincing the masses to believe.  All religious belief systems use it often.


Who are you arguing with?


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 27, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> I'm sure to those who are "predestined" it is not a mystery.
> They can enjoy their superiority.
> 
> Whether a graduate level professor or gospel evangelist, even the *appeal to emotion* tactic is not always foolproof in convincing the masses to believe.  All religious belief systems use it often.


Even the animal rescue wanting money


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## WTM45 (Feb 27, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Who are you arguing with?



I'm not.

I am appealing to the predestination crowd.  I'm sure they will be along shortly.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 27, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> I'm not.
> 
> I am appealing to the predestination crowd.  I'm sure they will be along shortly.


Glad to hear it. Wouldn't your appeal and whether or not they address your confusion, also be predestined?


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## WTM45 (Feb 27, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Glad to hear it. Wouldn't your appeal and whether or not they address your confusion, also be predestined?



Could be.  Might not be.  Whether or not they respond is up to their "conviction" and if they are "moved" to do so.

They could simply be "bored" too...


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## gemcgrew (Feb 27, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> Could be.  Might not be.  Whether or not they respond is up to their "conviction" and if they are "moved" to do so.
> 
> They could simply be "bored" too...


How could they not be? You are all over the place in this conversation and you want to tell me what is rational and true?


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## WTM45 (Feb 27, 2013)

I'm not telling you anything.  We are simply talking here.
I'm NOT a predestination type, in any shape or form, therefore I keep the window open that someone who IS would present their argument.  Or not.  It is up to them to do so.
Don't fret, I am not confused at all.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 27, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> I'm not telling you anything.  We are simply talking here.


Didn't you say, "No deflection, just a rational observation which happens to be true."?
So now you can not even be truthful?



WTM45 said:


> I'm NOT a predestination type, in any shape or form, therefore I keep the window open that someone who IS would present their argument.  Or not.  It is up to them to do so.
> Don't fret, I am not confused at all.


Not only are you confused, you are dishonest.


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## WTM45 (Feb 27, 2013)

Whoa!  Explain that one!

What I said is true.  I never said those who question do not find answers.  I only stated they tend to question the most, and that questioning tends to lead them to investigate further.

Call me dishonest if you will.  I can stay above that.
Trust me.  I am not confused.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 27, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> What I said is true.


So now you are telling me something, or are we still simply talking? And you are not confused? Do you always reason this way?


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## WTM45 (Feb 27, 2013)

It's all talk.  And it means nothing.
Nothing.

Are we answering the OP's question with all this?


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## gemcgrew (Feb 27, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> It's all talk.  And it means nothing.
> Nothing.
> 
> Are we answering the OP's question with all this?


I think you are answering it in a big way. Thanks for talking and meaning nothing.


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## WTM45 (Feb 27, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Thanks for talking and meaning nothing.



Thank you for the same!

The insulting attitude, not so much.
It's all good.


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## WTM45 (Feb 27, 2013)

Art, would a believer build their beliefs and knowledge of their belief system to be stronger simply by taking a look at what those who do not believe base their rejections on?  

If not, is that contending that any counter argument or questioning of beliefs is purely detrimental to one's level of faith?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> Art, would a believer build their beliefs and knowledge of their belief system to be stronger simply by taking a look at what those who do not believe base their rejections on?
> 
> If not, is that contending that any counter argument or questioning of beliefs is purely detrimental to one's level of faith?



Can you ask that a different way? I'm not sure what you are  asking.
I believe one must "seek to find" so therefore using free will i get to decide to follow Jesus. I can be helped or called by the Holy Spirit if I'm seeking God. I wish I believed in election then I too would not wonder why we all aren't overcome by the Holy Spirit. I also believe you can fall away from the Church which could explain why some atheist used to be Christians. I truly believe that at some point in their lives they were sheep and not tares. they lost sight and either become tares or Atheist. I would trust an atheist over a tare. 
I believe I can learn from all people. Perhaps God made them what they are for his glory and Bart has no choice. Election would make that real easy to understand. Perhaps God makes me think I have fee will and I really don't. Maybe he gives some people free will and others he elects. Yes even with my faith it is a mystery. If I believed in predestination, nothing would be a mystery.
I could sleep better at night know nothing was my fault and any choice I made was useless.
Now again, what was your question?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

stringmusic 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTM45 View Post
Reason I bring this up is because WHY HAS HE NOT BEEN VISITED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT?
because...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
He doesn't believe in Jesus' diety.

Most Christians do believe in the deity of Jesus but I don't believe it is Biblical nor a requirement for salvation, just a belief that he died for you sins, "Grace"remember. That would be a work. I guess you could say God will not give any un-believer the Holy Ghost if he doesn't believe Jesus has deity, therefore  God will not grant them Grace & Salvation.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> Based on the wording of the OP [gospel], I have to say no. But can he teach the bible. Yes. In Erhman's bible classes, many are not aware that he is not a christian. He teaches the entire semester without showing biased either way. The last day of class is opitional where he describes his view



Yes I should have said the Bible but most would not feel any differently. The Good News is part of the Bible.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yes I should have said the Bible but most would not feel any differently. The Good News is part of the Bible.



Well don't worry about whether he is teaching the gospel, he's teaching what he believes about the bible, just like science worshippers teach what they believe without absolute truth/proof.


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## WTM45 (Feb 27, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Most Christians do believe in the deity of Jesus but I don't believe it is Biblical nor a requirement for salvation, just a belief that he died for you sins, "Grace"remember. That would be a work. I guess you could say God will not give any un-believer the Holy Ghost if he doesn't believe Jesus has deity, therefore  God will not grant them Grace & Salvation.



The "Holy Ghost" is said to be more than just a "comforter" to those who believe.  What brings "conviction" upon the heart of the unbeliever?

Is there a scripture which supports the above underlined?

Art, you answered my question quite well above.  Thank you.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Well don't worry about whether he is teaching the gospel, he's teaching what he believes about the bible, just like science worshippers teach what they believe without absolute truth/proof.



The apostles and including Paul were speaking the words of the Holy Spirit. They were channeling if you will. When preachers & teachers of today preach, they are speaking their words. They my by guided by the Holy Spirit but there is a difference. If there isn't then we are no different from them and have no free will. Everything we say or do is actually the work of the Holy Spirit. Free will is why we have preachers like Hinn & Osteen. Are they tares or just misguided souls? Maybe they are listening to their spirits more than the Holy Spirit.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 27, 2013)

Can Atheist teach the Gospel?

2Cor 6:14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? 16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
“I will dwell in them and walk among them;
And I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
17 “Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord.
“And do not touch what is unclean;
And I will welcome you.
18 “And I will be a father to you,
And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,”
Says the Lord Almighty.

*No they can't.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 28, 2013)

WTM, you and I have been back and forth enough about various subjects that I won't pretend to be able to convince you of my beliefs.  I fully respect that you are well versed and educated in subjects related to christianity and other religions.

My only response is simply this...there is a gulf of a difference between reading the Bible a lot and seeking God.

Nothing in God's Word promises that if you simple read his Word, you will find him.  In fact, there are story after story regarding those who DID know God's Word well and yet didn't know him.

There is also example after example of his promise that you will find him when you seek him.  

Many will know the Bible.  They will only find him when they seek.  Whether that's prompted by God or by man is a subject for a different day.  But your assertion that your odds of finding him should increase the longer you read is counter to what you will read in there.


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## WTM45 (Feb 28, 2013)

Does Mathew 7:7 ring a bell?


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 28, 2013)

Artfulrodger I haven't been here on the spiritual forum for a week so forgive my ignorance if this has been asked before, but I've noticed that you ask a lot of skeptical questions.  Do you ask these out of a sincere search for the truth or are they asked merely to promote thoughtful discussion?  The reason I ask is simply put 'Intent is prior to content.'


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## Huntinfool (Feb 28, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> Does Mathew 7:7 ring a bell?



Yep....SEEK....and you will find.  As I said, huge difference between reading and seeking.

Our friends over in the athiest part of this forum prove every day that many people read heavily...but have no intention of seeking.


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## WTM45 (Feb 28, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> Yep....SEEK....and you will find.  As I said, huge difference between reading and seeking.
> 
> Our friends over in the athiest part of this forum prove every day that many people read heavily...but have no intention of seeking.



I used that word "seek" earlier in this thread.  But I can not agree with your premise.  I think a lot of folks seek without coming to the exact same conclusions as "believers."  What causes that to happen?  Why is there conviction leading to acceptance for some but an increase in doubt for others?


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## JB0704 (Feb 28, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> Whether that's prompted by God or by man is a subject for a different day.



What do you mean????


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## JB0704 (Feb 28, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> What causes that to happen?  Why is there conviction leading to acceptance for some but an increase in doubt for others?



Believing in something without that "cold-hard fact" that seems to be the bar set by non-believers.

Think about it, the effectiveness of the Bible is based on whether one accepts the premise that God exists.  If such notion is rejected, then the Bible makes no sense.  You aren't going to find that piece of information in there.

However, if one accepts that "a" God exists, then religious texts are open to further scrutiny.  Before such a notion is accepted, then it is all just the ramblings of goat-herders.


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## WTM45 (Feb 28, 2013)

Many "believers" find their "cold-hard fact" and that leads them to hold faith in high regard.  I'm not one to argue that someone else's "cold-hard fact" is not indeed true.  It is for them.

My question is deeper than that.  Regardless of if one is an Atheist, an Agnostic, a skeptic or a believer in another deity and religious belief system altogether, why does "conviction" and a visit from the God of Abraham skip many who do indeed "seek?"


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## Huntinfool (Feb 28, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> I used that word "seek" earlier in this thread.  But I can not agree with your premise.  I think a lot of folks seek without coming to the exact same conclusions as "believers."  What causes that to happen?  Why is there conviction leading to acceptance for some but an increase in doubt for others?



Whatever "seek" means, you cannot disagree that the Bible is very clear that, when you seek, you will find.

If the Word of God is to be true, then those who simply read and do not "find" are not "seeking".

So, in terms of what the Bible says, seeking does not = reading/studying.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 28, 2013)

> why does "conviction" and a visit from the God of Abraham skip many who do indeed "seek?"



Biblically speaking....it doesn't.  That's a very clear promise in scripture.

I grew up a PK.  I knew the Bible inside and out.  I was not seeking....and I did not find for nearly 3 decades.


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## Mako22 (Feb 28, 2013)

There is no such thing as a former Christian and how can someone teach the bible without the power of the Holy Spirit? The bible is spiritually discerned an athiest has no way of truly understanding it.


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## WTM45 (Feb 28, 2013)

What about those who "find" when they were not "seeking" at all?  
Why is the "Holy Spirit" so selective?  Predestination?


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## Huntinfool (Feb 28, 2013)

I don't think you can make the case, biblically, that seeking is required for finding.  Only that seeking always leads to finding.

Paul, for example.....not seeking, but boy was he ever found.  

I won't pretend to tell you I understand all of the ways/reasons of the Holy Spirit.  If you're making the case that "it's not fair"...I agree with you and I'm glad for it.


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## WTM45 (Feb 28, 2013)

Not concerned over a concept of "fairness" but interested in how people reach their conclusions in relation to belief.  Some of the most studied and knowledgeable don't develop the level of faith which I have seen in folks with what most "believers" would consider a very low level of knowledge.  With that faith usually is found a hunger and a desire to learn more.  

Thanks for the responses!  Always good to talk with you HF!


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2013)

Do not be bound together with unbelievers

Why is it OK to be bound together in the Boy Scouts & Masonry with un-believers? What about  the AAA Forum? Is it just hanging out with them, lowering to their ways, or worshipping?


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## Huntinfool (Feb 28, 2013)

By the definition of "bound" that you seem to be putting forth, Jesus was the chief violator of that statement during his ministry.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 28, 2013)

Woodsman69 said:


> There is no such thing as a former Christian and how can someone teach the bible without the power of the Holy Spirit? The bible is spiritually discerned an athiest has no way of truly understanding it.



I disagree with you on the atheist statement.  Ever heard of C. S. Lewis?  We are all in essence atheist or agnostics at some point prior to searching for and finding the truth.  The Gospel of John alone has cracked open the door of understanding to many self-proclaimed atheist.  The Holy Ghost will answer ALL who earnestly seek The truth.


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## bigdawg25 (Feb 28, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would add that the two mentioned above just teach the Bible. They don't even have a dog in the hunt to convert anyone, just teach.
> They might do more of a service to Christianity than Benny Hinn or Joel Osteen. Benny Hinn accuses Joel Osteen for not staying biblical in his teachings. I believe Osteen said there could be other paths to Heaven than Jesus. I don't believe they are false prophets, just letting their own beliefs get in the way. Someone else mentioned there is a lot in their teachings that is good and correct and biblical. You just have to overlook the part you don't agree with. What about new converts that don't know any better?



to answer your question, absolutely yes!

I dont know on this planet who hasn't had doubts about religion, about divinity of Jesus, Buddha etc; they just dont admit it and get along with life; some may actually be preachers preaching every Sunday without even knowing it.

Its the process of doubt which makes one's faith stronger. I can name tens of thousands of athiests/agnostics/non religious folks who took to study of religion just for the sake of knowledge without expecting anything (promise of salvation etc), and when they eventually found "faith" they turned out to be more stronger, devout, and knowledgeable Christians then the one who pretend to have found god on day 1 when they were born. Many of those folks taught religion in universities etc before they became religious; and almost anyone attending their classes will tell you that they benefited more from those lectures then sermons in churches.


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## bigdawg25 (Feb 28, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I disagree with you on the atheist statement.  Ever heard of C. S. Lewis?  We are all in essence atheist or agnostics at some point prior to searching for and finding the truth.  The Gospel of John alone has cracked open the door of understanding to many self-proclaimed atheist.  The Holy Ghost will answer ALL who earnestly seek The truth.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Artfulrodger I haven't been here on the spiritual forum for a week so forgive my ignorance if this has been asked before, but I've noticed that you ask a lot of skeptical questions.  Do you ask these out of a sincere search for the truth or are they asked merely to promote thoughtful discussion?  The reason I ask is simply put 'Intent is prior to content.'



Left-handed people have an unorthodox way of looking at the world. Studies have shown this. So has my personal experience.

While most people, i.e. right-handers, are encouraged and sometimes struggle with "thinking outside of the box," it seems to come naturally to we left-handers. The trouble left-handers have with seeing the world differently is not realizing that most people do not see the world the same way we do.


Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories...rent-and-i-can-prove-it-226794/#ixzz2MDO4MW4E


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Artfulrodger I haven't been here on the spiritual forum for a week so forgive my ignorance if this has been asked before, but I've noticed that you ask a lot of skeptical questions.  Do you ask these out of a sincere search for the truth or are they asked merely to promote thoughtful discussion?  The reason I ask is simply put 'Intent is prior to content.'



Seriously though, I'm asking out of sincerity as I search for the truth. Most of my questions come from the various posts on GON. It's kinda like watching a video on youtube and clicking on another and another.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Artfulrodger I haven't been here on the spiritual forum for a week so forgive my ignorance if this has been asked before, but I've noticed that you ask a lot of skeptical questions.  Do you ask these out of a sincere search for the truth or are they asked merely to promote thoughtful discussion?  The reason I ask is simply put 'Intent is prior to content.'



I was first accused of being a troll, a past poster, and an Artful Dodger, when I joined. I grew up in a Baptist Church down the road from Dublin in Douglas. I'm trying to abandon my upbringing and learn the Bible for myself and through the eyes of others. In reality it's hard to do. I had been out of the Church for awhile after leaving Douglas and have a lot of catching up to do. I'm just trying to "rightlyfully divide the truth" so to speak.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 28, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I was first accused of being a troll, a past poster, and an Artful Dodger, when I joined. I grew up in a Baptist Church down the road from Dublin in Douglas. I'm trying to abandon my upbringing and learn the Bible for myself and through the eyes of others. In reality it's hard to do. I had been out of the Church for awhile after leaving Douglas and have a lot of catching up to do. I'm just trying to "rightlyfully divide the truth" so to speak.




Funny, I don't read 'troll'. into any of your post.  Actually I couldnt figure out if you were 'catching up' or a 'mature Christian'  if you will, because the questions you ask are very thought provoking for both groups.  I could point you to some excellent sources in your search for the truth if you are interested.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Funny, I don't read 'troll'. into any of your post.  Actually I couldnt figure out if you were 'catching up' or a 'mature Christian'  if you will, because the questions you ask are very thought provoking for both groups.  I could point you to some excellent sources in your search for the truth if you are interested.



Sure shoot me a PM.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I disagree with you on the atheist statement.  Ever heard of C. S. Lewis?  We are all in essence atheist or agnostics at some point prior to searching for and finding the truth.  The Gospel of John alone has cracked open the door of understanding to many self-proclaimed atheist.  The Holy Ghost will answer ALL who earnestly seek The truth.



I read Lewis's bio, wasn't he an Atheist who became a Christian? Woodsman69 believes that once you are save, you are always save. Isn't that different from Lewis' life?

I believe one CAN  fall away from the Church. There are verses leaning both ways just like everyting else. Because of my belief, I don't have a problem believing in ex Christians. I believe they truly were saved and lost faith.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 28, 2013)

Yes he was.  That's true.  If you've never read Mere Christianity, you should.  It's as masterly written as The Narnia series.  No, even moreso.  I haven't read his bio so I don't understand your question as it relates to once saved always saved.   You say you believe one can fall away from the church.  I understand you to mean 'fall away from your relationship with God'.  Yes that is true.  I'm living proof of that, as are many more.  And yes there are verses that will support both eternal salvation and lost salvation.  I have studied both sides of the issue and both sides have solid, reasonable, well grounded doctrine to back them up.  That being said, only one can be true.  I believe you can't lose your salvation and would be glad to discuss why if you are interested, but I don't want to derail thread.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 28, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> ....WHY HAS HE NOT BEEN VISITED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT? One would think that would easily occur when one devotes that much time, energy and effort into the study.


 
God is no respector of persons, nor their works.
Pulling your religious self along is hideous to the Gospel and is a slap in the face to the free work of mercy from the cross.
God gives His Spirit freely to those who thirst for Him, call out to Him and ask to be saved from their sin, not those who "work" for Him.


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## WTM45 (Feb 28, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> God is no respector of persons, nor their works.
> Pulling your religious self along is hideous to the Gospel and is a slap in the face to the free work of mercy from the cross.
> God gives His Spirit freely to those who thirst for Him, call out to Him and ask to be saved from their sin, not those who "work" for Him.




I was not referring to any "works" or "working" for "salvation."  I don't think those who really dig deep in investigation and study of Judeo Christian theology and the Bible are attempting to "make" something happen outside growing their own individual knowledge.  I only wonder why everyone who makes such an effort is not "rewarded" with an ability to believe through faith.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> God is no respector of persons, nor their works.
> Pulling your religious self along is hideous to the Gospel and is a slap in the face to the free work of mercy from the cross.
> God gives His Spirit freely to those who thirst for Him, call out to Him and ask to be saved from their sin, not those who "work" for Him.



The Election crowd takes God is no respecter of man one step farther. I think they believe seeking is a work also.
Meaning God delivers to Jesus who he wants.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> I was not referring to any "works" or "working" for "salvation."  I don't think those who really dig deep in investigation and study of Judeo Christian theology and the Bible are attempting to "make" something happen outside growing their own individual knowledge.  I only wonder why everyone who makes such an effort is not "rewarded" with an ability to believe through faith.



It appears you are asking, why does the Holy Spirit only guide certain "seeking" un believers? I would add, he guides all un believers who are seeking, only some accept the call. This is due to free will. Otherwise, everyone God wanted to save would be saved. I've personally felt the power of the Holy Spirit and at the time refused to let him enter my body.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 28, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've personally felt the power of the Holy Spirit and at the time refused to let him enter my body.


And just about the time I thought I've heard it all. Apparently, God's will is subservient to man's will.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> And just about the time I thought I've heard it all. God's will is subservient to man's will.



You didn't send me a verse to back that up.
I thought every creature is subservient to the will of God.

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2013)

While we're on the topic of seeking & choosing:

Proverbs 1:28-29
Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me.
Since they hated knowledge
and did not CHOOSE to fear the LORD.

Proverbs 8:10
CHOOSE my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold

Joshua 24:14-15
Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then CHOOSE for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.

OK, that was my short sermon on "Seeking & Choosing"


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## gemcgrew (Feb 28, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> You didn't send me a verse to back that up.
> I thought every creature is subservient to the will of God.


Apparently not in your case. I was pointing out what your comment was indicating. I should have been more clear.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 28, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> OK, that was my short sermon on "Seeking & Choosing"


You forgot one.

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11)


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> And just about the time I thought I've heard it all. Apparently, God's will is subservient to man's will.



You are so correct in how I read that and I apologize. Not that I agree with your concept, but I did read your response wrong. Your response was clear, I just heard it wrong.

How do you find resolution in Matthew 7:7 Seek and you will find?


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## gemcgrew (Feb 28, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> How do you find resolution in Matthew 7:7 Seek and you will find?


"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"

When we ask and seek under the influence of the Holy Spirit, we find. When I sought and asked under the influence of friends, preachers and family, I found nothing.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 1, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> I don't think you can make the case, biblically, that seeking is required for finding.  Only that seeking always leads to finding.
> 
> Paul, for example.....not seeking, but boy was he ever found.
> 
> I won't pretend to tell you I understand all of the ways/reasons of the Holy Spirit.  If you're making the case that "it's not fair"...I agree with you and I'm glad for it.



I believe Paul was predestined/chosen as all of the disciples, also Jonah, Moses and Jeremiah, Isaiah and Billy Graham.

Deuteronomy 18:18 
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Jeremiah 1:5 
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations

Every one of us are not prophets, nor whale riders, nor commandment writers or leaders.

Most of us are sheep. The people who God predestined did not have a choice. He pulled them above the brethren (us) to be leaders, teachers, examples, whatever. 

Some are predestined and have no free will, God's tools, angels whatever you want to consider them.

I personally was obviously seeking something that I could not find, for many years of my life. God didn't just pull me up and make me be saved. Come to find out I was seeking Him all along and had been brought up to believe that all I needed was Jesus and once I came to my knees in the world, I finally surrendered to something I had been taught many years before, the gospel...because of someone who opted to go into ALL the world preaching the gospel. I thank God for Jesus and giving me and everyone else the gift of salvation, but it was up to me to reject or accept. Nothing I could do would save me, I wasn't raised out of a multitude to be anything...I was given a gift that I accepted. I'd like to believe that God chose me, but actually God chose for no one to perish and everyone has the same option....those that weren't predestined to be something other than a sheep. 

And all the letters written between the churches were addressed to God's elect/preselected/chosen, to the leaders not the sheep. IMHO


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## mtnwoman (Mar 1, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"
> 
> When we ask and seek under the influence of the Holy Spirit, we find. When I sought and asked under the influence of friends, preachers and family, I found nothing.



So the gospel didn't effect you? You just all of a sudden  realized you were saved? and you had no choice like Paul or Jeremiah you were called out of the brethren that you didn't know you were in? If so then perhaps you were called out and you have a special calling above the other brethren who are simply followers of Christ. Ephesians tells you how to find out what that calling is.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 1, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> You forgot one.
> 
> "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11)



Why were graven images made, or other idols if no one was seeking a god?

Picking one verse does not prove a point...read the rest of the chapter

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Faith in His blood and belief in Jesus is a requirement for salvation. You have to believe, you are not forced to believe. If God's will is for no one to perish then He could predestine everyone and make them believe. Yes God chooses, but He chooses for none to perish, He doesn't chose some to perish, He chooses no one to perish...but if we believe we will not perish.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"
> 
> When we ask and seek under the influence of the Holy Spirit, we find. When I sought and asked under the influence of friends, preachers and family, I found nothing.



This asking & seeking under the influence of the Holy Spirit is something any non believer can do?


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## gemcgrew (Mar 1, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> This asking & seeking under the influence of the Holy Spirit is something any non belieber can do?


It is something every unbeliever will do, when influenced by the Holy Spirit.

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)"(Ephesians 2:1-5)


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> It is something every unbeliever will do, when influenced by the Holy Spirit.
> 
> "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)"(Ephesians 2:1-5)



That verse says nothing about "asking & seeking." It is more about being awakened by the Holy Spirit. This could explain why some people are saved while not seeking.
What about people who are actively seeking who do try it with influence from friends, preachers and family. I would agree you won't find God that way but only with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 7:7 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.  (this appears that any non believer can do this. It in no way leaves  the Holy Spirit out of the process.)


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## hobbs27 (Mar 1, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> That verse says nothing about "asking & seeking." It is more about being awakened by the Holy Spirit. This could explain why some people are saved while not seeking.



I've heard a lot of testimonies in my time, but I have yet to hear someone say they were just walking down the street minding their own business and BAM! God saved them.

Do you have any evidence of someone being saved without seeking?


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 1, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I've heard a lot of testimonies in my time, but I have yet to hear someone say they were just walking down the street minding their own business and BAM! God saved them.
> 
> Do you have any evidence of someone being saved without seeking?



Saul


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Saul



That's only one example, are there more? I was thinking of Cornelius but he might have been seeking as he was praying. I'm sure there are examples even today.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 1, 2013)

More often than not I think we are guilty of limiting God to our understanding of scripture, and I think it's comparable to looking at a black and white photo of a mountain range and claiming to know every stream, tree, rock,crevasse and the understand the nature of the creatures of the forests intimately from our simple view of the picture.  In all honesty we can know only what is made known, but we take our suppositions and spout them as doctrine, in so doing take on the authority of the creator.   I would suggest that more damage has been done to Christianity,by Christians, in this manner than all of the persecution combined yet it continues to this day.  Why can't we as Christians be amazed with what God has made evident, and bedazzled with the thoughts of what is yet to be revealed.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 1, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's only one example, are there more? I was thinking of Cornelius but he might have been seeking as he was praying. I'm sure there are examples even today.



O.K.  Of all the major players in the OT it would be easier to ask which ones were looking for God than ask which ones weren't.  I think that still applies today.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 1, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's only one example, are there more? I was thinking of Cornelius but he might have been seeking as he was praying. I'm sure there are examples even today.


I was not seeking and neither was my 18 year old son, just 2 nights ago. He now seeks answers to what exactly happened.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 1, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Saul



Im not sure Saul recieved salvation on the road to Damascus,  but he was certainly educated.
I am more interested in examples of today now that the Kingdom is fully recieved.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 1, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I was not seeking and neither was my 18 year old son, just 2 nights ago. He now seeks answers to what exactly happened.



What happened 2 nights ago?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 1, 2013)

Reading the story again...thanks for bringing it up.

Saul would have received salvation in Acts 9:18. Blinded and hearing the very voice of God, surely brought on conviction in which he could not have easily turned from.

I also like the story of the eunuch in acts 8, or the Jews on the day of Pentecost ...both had to hear the word before their hearts were pricked (conviction) fell on them. They then seeked for relief.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 1, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> What happened 2 nights ago?


My wife woke me up at about midnight. She told me that our son was sobbing uncontrollably in his room and for no apparent reason. I knew that it was a mighty confrontation taking place. She wanted me to get involved but I wouldn't. I knew it was being worked out. The next morning, he professed Christ as his Savior!

Paul is not an exception to the rule. He is an example or pattern. He tells us this in 1 Timothy 1:16.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 1, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I knew that it was a mighty confrontation taking place. She wanted me to get involved but I wouldn't. I knew it was being worked out. The next morning, he professed Christ as his Savior!1



Best news I've heard all day! Glad he worked it out.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 1, 2013)

That is awesome


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2013)

I love it.  Thanks for sharing that with us.
.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 1, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> My wife woke me up at about midnight. She told me that our son was sobbing uncontrollably in his room and for no apparent reason. I knew that it was a mighty confrontation taking place. She wanted me to get involved but I wouldn't. I knew it was being worked out. The next morning, he professed Christ as his Savior!


 
What great news! I will pray he grows in the grace of the Lord Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2013)

Amen gemcgrew, that's great news. I'm sure ya'll are all ecstatic.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 1, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> My wife woke me up at about midnight. She told me that our son was sobbing uncontrollably in his room and for no apparent reason. I knew that it was a mighty confrontation taking place. She wanted me to get involved but I wouldn't. I knew it was being worked out. The next morning, he professed Christ as his Savior!



Awesome!


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2013)

Hearing gemcgrew's good news is very humbling and kinda puts a lot of what we are talking about on these forums into prospective. On the one had it appears to be petty bickering at times. Then when I hear good news like today, it makes me glad that I'm learning and having fellowship.


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## Israel (Mar 1, 2013)

LOL...it is in learning to patiently resist the urge to "do something" that we discover God is already (and always has been) at work.
Our fixing of situations is our undoing.
God's work is perfect.


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## hummerpoo (Mar 4, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> More often than not I think we are guilty of limiting God to our understanding of scripture, and I think it's comparable to looking at a black and white photo of a mountain range and claiming to know every stream, tree, rock,crevasse and the understand the nature of the creatures of the forests intimately from our simple view of the picture.  In all honesty we can know only what is made known, but we take our suppositions and spout them as doctrine, in so doing take on the authority of the creator.   I would suggest that more damage has been done to Christianity,by Christians, in this manner than all of the persecution combined yet it continues to this day.  Why can't we as Christians be amazed with what God has made evident, and bedazzled with the thoughts of what is yet to be revealed.





Israel said:


> LOL...it is in learning to patiently resist the urge to "do something" that we discover God is already (and always has been) at work.
> Our fixing of situations is our undoing.
> God's work is perfect.



Two excellent examples of "God centered faith".
Makes me feel good all over.  Thanks guys.


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## formula1 (Mar 4, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> Two excellent examples of "God centered faith".
> Makes me feel good all over.  Thanks guys.



I'll second your post!


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