# The Jehovah's Witness Note - (That I leave at some 'not a homes')



## MoonPie

Hello Neighbor,

   I am one of the group of Christian Jehovah's Witnesses that visit your neighborhood on a monthly basis. We have not found you home or you may have been home, and understandably not opened the door. I most times do the same thing when someone I do not know comes to mine.

   Perhaps you have an idea of who we are, and do not want to be bothered. We encounter all ranges of emotion, from deep appreciation to repulsion as a part of our daily experience. These very things that you think about us are the very reasons why we are calling - to give a clear understanding of who we are, what we do, and more importantly to give encouragement from scripture.  Most neighbors are at least comforted by the facts that - we are spiritual, clean cut, and harmless, but we are so much more...

   Our work is simple and  described at Matthew 28:19 to "Go ye therefore, and teach all... to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you”- (King James version). No matter what faith, we face common concerns... _crime_, sickness, death, suffering, etc. Scripture can bring  comfort. In our ministry _we many times actually meet the criminals who are robbing, stealing, and attacking us good citizens of Montgomery._  We reason with them the same as we do with every listening household, from the scriptures. MANY have turned around and stopped their evil ways, simply from a scriptural study of  Gods Word the Bible.

   We are very happy to be good neighbors, donating our time, and for some of us with what little energy we have left, in this busy world to help make it a better and more comfortable place for all of us.

   Personally I am always encouraged by three scriptures, no matter what life throws our way, they ALWAYS provide the comfort and hope to tread confident through another day:
Romans 15:4 - ”For all things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope”.
John 17:3 - ”This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ”.
John 17:17 ”Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth”.

Please, next time we knock on your door or you see us walking down the street, come out or stop for a few seconds and say "hey". It be appreciated, as it is for your reading this note.

Sincerely Thank You,
WD Smith


----------



## gemcgrew

Get off of my porch!


----------



## j_seph

Moon Pie, are you JW?


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

It's always nice to look at other versions of scripture.  This is my personal favorite, the English Standard Version. It can be wordy at times, but its use of the English language always strives for clarity. So what bible is your favorite?

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

Romans 15
4 For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

John 17
3 And this is eternal life, that they know You the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

John 17
17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your Word is truth.


----------



## MoonPie

j_seph said:


> Moon Pie, are you JW?



Yes


----------



## SemperFiDawg

I love welcoming JW and LDS visitors into my home to witness to them.  They are well versed in scripture, are kind, and are spiritually receptive which is rare these days.   We had two LDS missionaries come by last year.  My wife and I both witnessed to them, loaded them up with home made watermelon jelly, peach butter, apple butter,  and pickles.  Invited them back to go deer hunting with me and watch some football.  Two weeks later the Bishop of the LDS Church came by and we had him in also.  He declined our hospitality and let us know that the missionaries would not be back to visit us.   I thought that a bit odd.


----------



## 04ctd

SemperFiDawg said:


> We had two LDS missionaries come by last year.  My wife and I both witnessed to them, loaded them up with home made watermelon jelly, peach butter, apple butter,  and pickles.  Invited them back to go deer hunting with me and watch some football.  Two weeks later the Bishop of the LDS Church came by and we had him in also.  He declined our hospitality and let us know that the missionaries would not be back to visit us.   I thought that a bit odd.



we had a family canvas our neighborhood last summer.
it's HOT here. I keep gatorade & water in fridge outside by the case. it's HOT and HUMID HERE.

they had on long sleeve dress clothes

had a teen from my church cutting grass (try to hire one teen guy every summer, and teach him how to keep up a house & cars), and wife had made him some cookies.

so I got the JW kids some cookies, and got all of them a water or a gatorade, whatever they wanted.

we had a great conversation, and they were blown away with my hospitality....no I mean it, it was like they were AMAZED that i could be so good to them, and tell them about God's love and His power and Strength and Mercy, and know Him on a personal basis.  


> I thought that a bit odd.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Same here.  They were jacked about coming over and watching football with us and hunting with me.  Maybe, just maybe, they came to realize that people outside their Church love and follow Jesus also.  I think they went back to the Church, told someone about their experience, and we were seen as dangerous because of this and placed off limits.  It's a shame but that's the only 
explaination that fits.


----------



## j_seph

Why is it that JW do not celebrate anything other than wedding anniversaries? No birthdays, no Easter, no Christmas?


----------



## hobbs27

My childhood friend and neighbor was JW . One of the saddest things you'll ever see is a JW kid at Christmas time. He always waited a couple of days before coming over to see what my brother and I got, and when we asked what he got , he just shrugged his shoulders and wouldn't talk about it.


----------



## j_seph

hobbs27 said:


> My childhood friend and neighbor was JW . One of the saddest things you'll ever see is a JW kid at Christmas time. He always waited a couple of days before coming over to see what my brother and I got, and when we asked what he got , he just shrugged his shoulders and wouldn't talk about it.


Friend of mine son is JW, they give their grand kids presents but are not allowed to tel them they are Christmas presents nor are they allowed to wrap them They don't do the big Christmas get togethers with them as well


----------



## 1john4:4

MoonPie said:


> Hello Neighbor,
> 
> 
> 
> Our work is simple and  described at Matthew 28:19 to "Go ye therefore, and teach all... to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you”- (King James version).
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you choose to leave out this part in this letter? baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
> 
> Just curious?


----------



## M80

I had a good talk with some a few years back. 45 minutes later giving them verses they left scratching their heads saying"you sure gave us a lot to study and think about". 

My KJV bible says these things are written that you may know, I'm glad I know that heaven is my home. Amen


----------



## Hawire

Do JWs believe in the Father and the Son?  Or just the Father?


----------



## 1john4:4

mwilliams80 said:


> i had a good talk with some a few years back. 45 minutes later giving them verses they left scratching their heads saying"you sure gave us a lot to study and think about".
> 
> My kjv bible says these things are written that you may know, i'm glad i know that heaven is my home. Amen




amen!


----------



## MoonPie

SemperFiDawg said:


> Same here.  They were jacked about coming over and watching football with us and hunting with me.  Maybe, just maybe, they came to realize that people outside their Church love and follow Jesus also.  I think they went back to the Church, told someone about their experience, and we were seen as dangerous because of this and placed off limits.  It's a shame but that's the only
> explaination that fits.



Appreciate the posts. Don't know what LDS is (hope you don't mean LSD) but look at the avitar, the happy dude on the left in there, that be me. Dove shootin and Deer hunting flunky... couple a year for our house, one for our daughter, and if blessed with any more they go the poor here in Montgomery.  Just sayin, nuthin special here. Just a regular people who loves people and scripture. I don't try to push it, debate it or the like... just use it to comfort.  It is the ultimate comfort and the ultimate guide. And to "love and follow Jesus". You said it Brother!


----------



## centerpin fan

MoonPie said:


> Appreciate the posts. Don't know what LDS is ...



"Latter Day Saints", a/k/a Mormons.


----------



## Mako22

I go door to door every week, I tell people about the lake of fire, eternal punishment and that Jesus Christ who is God died for their sin. Most look worried when I approach but when I tell them I am a Baptist they usually smile and say "oh I thought you were a JW".


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Hello Moonpie, thanks for sharing. I often see JW's talking with people down at a popular fishing spot on the river. Mike and Cyntia[JW's] used to come by and we would talk for hours. LOL, I thought I would eventually convert them. Funny that my beliefs have changed much since then.


----------



## Artfuldodger

SemperFiDawg said:


> I love welcoming JW and LDS visitors into my home to witness to them.  They are well versed in scripture, are kind, and are spiritually receptive which is rare these days.   We had two LDS missionaries come by last year.  My wife and I both witnessed to them, loaded them up with home made watermelon jelly, peach butter, apple butter,  and pickles.  Invited them back to go deer hunting with me and watch some football.  Two weeks later the Bishop of the LDS Church came by and we had him in also.  He declined our hospitality and let us know that the missionaries would not be back to visit us.   I thought that a bit odd.



They might have figured the missionaries could be used better elswhere. Why preach to the choir?


----------



## Artfuldodger

1john4:4 said:


> MoonPie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Neighbor,
> 
> 
> 
> Our work is simple and  described at Matthew 28:19 to "Go ye therefore, and teach all... to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you”- (King James version).
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you choose to leave out this part in this letter? baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
> 
> Just curious?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:
> 
> "The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."
Click to expand...


----------



## Artfuldodger

Hawire said:


> Do JWs believe in the Father and the Son?  Or just the Father?



Both but they don't believe Jesus is his Father.


----------



## Artfuldodger

j_seph said:


> Why is it that JW do not celebrate anything other than wedding anniversaries? No birthdays, no Easter, no Christmas?



It's not Biblical and some celebrations have Pagan origins. JW's aren't the only Christians who don't celebrate Christmas.

http://www.ucg.org/doctrinal-beliefs/why-some-christians-dont-celebrate-christmas/

Many feel that Christmas marks Christ's birthday and that it honors Him. After all, can 2 billion professing Christians be wrong? At the same time, some few Christians don't observe Christmas, believing that Jesus didn't sanction it and that it dishonors Him. Who is right—and why?


----------



## j_seph

Hawire said:


> Do JWs believe in the Father and the Son?  Or just the Father?


From JW website: WEBSITE

 Yes. We are Christians for the following reasons:


  We try to follow closely the teachings and behavior of Jesus Christ.—1 Peter 2:21.
  We believe that Jesus is the key to salvation, that “<q class="scrp">there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.</q>”—Acts 4:12.
  When people become Jehovah’s Witnesses, they are baptized in the name of Jesus.—Matthew 28:18, 19.
  We offer our prayers in Jesus’ name.—John 15:16.
  We believe that Jesus is the Head, or the one appointed to have authority, over every man.—1 Corinthians 11:3.
However, in a number of ways, we are  different from other religious groups that are called Christian. For  example, we believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus is the Son of God,  not part of a Trinity. (Mark 12:29)  We do not believe that the soul is immortal, that there is any basis in  Scripture for saying that God tortures people in an everlasting - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -,  or that those who take the lead in religious activities should have  titles that elevate them above others.—Ecclesiastes 9:5; Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 23:8-10.


----------



## M80

j_seph said:


> From JW website: WEBSITE
> 
> Yes. We are Christians for the following reasons:
> 
> 
> We try to follow closely the teachings and behavior of Jesus Christ.—1 Peter 2:21.
> We believe that Jesus is the key to salvation, that “<q class="scrp">there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.</q>”—Acts 4:12.
> When people become Jehovah’s Witnesses, they are baptized in the name of Jesus.—Matthew 28:18, 19.
> We offer our prayers in Jesus’ name.—John 15:16.
> We believe that Jesus is the Head, or the one appointed to have authority, over every man.—1 Corinthians 11:3.
> However, in a number of ways, we are  different from other religious groups that are called Christian. For  example, we believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus is the Son of God,  not part of a Trinity. (Mark 12:29)  We do not believe that the soul is immortal, that there is any basis in  Scripture for saying that God tortures people in an everlasting - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -,  or that those who take the lead in religious activities should have  titles that elevate them above others.—Ecclesiastes 9:5; Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 23:8-10.



That's terrible if that's what's on there site and what they believe. They need to read the bible cause he11 is mentioned more than heaven is mentioned. 

Moonpie, you said you don't push your beliefs and I'm not going to argue about it, but you need to study hard and not listen to what just men say. You can work or walk as close to Jesus ways as hard as you can, all that will do is lead someone to he11. Please study Gods holy word and let The Lord lead you and not man. I believe you will see things differant and I'll be praying for you.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

I would like to point out that JW's, trins, mormans, etc, all formulate their beliefs from the bible. They just interpret the verses differently. I will say that JW's I have met know much more about their bible than   average church goers. When I say "more", I'm not saying that their interpretation is more correct, just saying they on average are more "trained" than average church goers.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

mwilliams80 said:


> That's terrible if that's what's on there site and what they believe. They need to read the bible cause he11 is mentioned more than heaven is mentioned.
> 
> Moonpie, you said you don't push your beliefs and I'm not going to argue about it, but you need to study hard and not listen to what just men say. You can work or walk as close to Jesus ways as hard as you can, all that will do is lead someone to he11. Please study Gods holy word and let The Lord lead you and not man. I believe you will see things differant and I'll be praying for you.


You might be surprised about the word he11. It is actually gehena in the greek. Gehenna was a trash dump where they discarded dung and trash. The fire was constant, never going out because people continued to bring trash every day. So.... point is, what did the original writer who penned the word gehena mean when he used it? Everlasting eternal punishment... or irreversible destruction? Point is that the he11 doctrine is not founded on near as much as people think. Maybe 2 verses in all


----------



## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> You might be surprised about the word he11. It is actually gehena in the greek. Gehenna was a trash dump where they discarded dung and trash. The fire was constant, never going out because people continued to bring trash every day. So.... point is, what did the original writer who penned the word gehena mean when he used it? Everlasting eternal punishment... or irreversible destruction? Point is that the he11 doctrine is not founded on near as much as people think. Maybe 2 verses in all



You're right about Gehenna, and it may be a worthy study for us here someday.



1gr8bldr said:


> I will say that JW's I have met know much more about their bible than   average church goers. When I say "more", I'm not saying that their interpretation is more correct, just saying they on average are more "trained" than average church goers



Correct again---My personal opinion is they are trained manipulators and do a good job convincing the gullible. A well established Christian wont fall for their "training".


----------



## Artfuldodger

I've read in the Bible about "everlasting life." Perhaps the alternative is everlasting death. Maybe the saved receive everlasting life and the unsaved receive death.
I think this is how JW's see it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> You're right about Gehenna, and it may be a worthy study for us here someday.
> 
> 
> 
> Correct again---My personal opinion is they are trained manipulators and do a good job convincing the gullible. A well established Christian wont fall for their "training".



Does the "Great Commission" the JW's practice from Matthew pertain to modern Christians?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Does the "Great Commission" the JW's practice from Matthew pertain to modern Christians?



No.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> You're right about Gehenna, and it may be a worthy study for us here someday.
> 
> 
> 
> Correct again---My personal opinion is they are trained manipulators and do a good job convincing the gullible. A well established Christian wont fall for their "training".



Well established Christians have been being manipulated and gullible for hundred of years!

Christians who are willing to place more emphasis on one verse that they will not place on another.
Christians who believe and taut doctrines that are not doctrines of Jesus or the apostles.

Who isn't guilty?????????
.


----------



## fish hawk

MoonPie said:


> Hello Neighbor,
> 
> 
> Please, next time we knock on your door or you see us walking down the street, come out or stop for a few seconds and say "hey". It be appreciated, as it is for your reading this note.
> 
> Sincerely Thank You,
> WD Smith



Why do yall have to keep a log of how much time you put in witnessing?And why do they give yall a certain territory to cover?And why do you have to go to a witnessing school?I know a lot about JW's as my MOM  is one.I'm a Christian first but attend a Baptist church,we've had some interesting conversations.
Also why must you come around at 9:00 AM on a Sat. morning?What if I decided to sleep in that morning because I had a hard  week at work and yall come knocking at the door while I'm still in my bath robe or worse still sleeping or worse than that,trying to have a romantic time with my lady?


----------



## Israel

There used to be this joke, "how do you carve an elephant?"
"Simple, start with a block of wood, and take away all the pieces that don't look like an elephant."


----------



## gordon 2

Israel said:


> There used to be this joke, "how do you carve an elephant?"
> "Simple, start with a block of wood, and take away all the pieces that don't look like an elephant."



Now that's funny...right there.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Well established Christians have been being manipulated and gullible for hundred of years!
> 
> Christians who are willing to place more emphasis on one verse that they will not place on another.
> Christians who believe and taut doctrines that are not doctrines of Jesus or the apostles.
> 
> Who isn't guilty?????????
> .



 I think a well established Christian knows to test the spirits and are quick to seperate those from God and those from evil. Sure we all may disagree on some doctrines of the church--- but do you know any elders of your church that could be convinced to leave their doctrine for the Kingdom Hall down the road?

 To answer your final question... I don't know if anyone else is guilty of teaching doctrines that are not of Jesus or the Apostles but I stand guilty, for I was once taught wrongly and continued the false teaching. I am more careful these days when I have to stand to teach, and leave most of the controversial and unsure topics for internet forum conversations.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> I think a well established Christian knows to test the spirits and are quick to seperate those from God and those from evil. Sure we all may disagree on some doctrines of the church--- but do you know any elders of your church that could be convinced to leave their doctrine for the Kingdom Hall down the road?
> 
> To answer your final question... I don't know if anyone else is guilty of teaching doctrines that are not of Jesus or the Apostles but I stand guilty, for I was once taught wrongly and continued the false teaching. I am more careful these days when I have to stand to teach, and leave most of the controversial and unsure topics for internet forum conversations.



   Very wise.  So do I.


----------



## MoonPie

Seeing the many threads and posts that tore up JW's, I felt it time to thread. Thank you to those who've been humble, respectful, and loving and hope you have felt me to be the same. Knowing that humility is  part of being a true Christian, and know many on this thread have a good grasp of scripture, I almost  think that the condescending posts are be out of place. Still, it gives me somewhat of a reason to defend my beliefs before you lay into me again and give y'all an idea of how I got to where I am. 

Some have portrayed me as being a ignorant lamb been led away to the slaughter.  Actually the truth is, it has been many years and  a long and exhaustive study of the Bible that has brought me to this point.  It started many years before becoming a Jehovah's Witness so no one led me in with mind control or the like. The fact is - some of what I'd been taught was not Biblical. Believing the Bible to be the word of God, and recognizing that the answers were there somewhere in it, the next step was to make a serious study. No longer was the time of being ready to accept things just because the crowd did or the preacher said. When a scripture like John 1:1 encouraged the belief that Jesus was God and I was encouraged to think that, why would the reading of the entire rest of the book teach that he was the Son of God. And why would Jesus say in Jn 20:17 that he was ascending to "my  father and your father and to my God and your God". I looked at the entire book, and the many cross scriptures that delt with it. When the apostles asked Jesus who do you think me to be, their answer was - you are the Son of God.  And if Jesus is God where was God between the time Jesus died and was resurrected. Well, then theres the trinity? He now did not fit there. God himself stated that he is ONE God (Is 44:6 KJV ... "I am the first, I am the last: beside me there is no God"). Not that truth is found there, but even the public library confirms these things. Still and importantly, Jesus being God's son takes nothing from him. As firstborn of all creation. The second-greatest personage in the universe, all prayer goes through him and we do all we can to imitate him. 

Every question, after letting the Bible prove itself to be God's word, can be answered by it. But searching out the truth from the scriptures is not always easy. In fact the Bible says this not always easy (Pro. 2:4 like searching for silver) and wanted us to search out his word for this accurate knowledge. Jesus spoke of  a narrow road leading to life that few would find (Matt 8:13) and a wide and easy one leading off into destruction that many would find. I want to be one of the few.

My Lord, how the intellectual and the debating can go on forever, but Jesus had a negative view of this (Matt 11:25) where he keeps the truth from the intellectuals while revealing it to babes. This thought always encourages me cause I am a flunky.  It's way more rewarding actually doing what Jesus commanded being of out there.  Going therefore, making disciples. Sometimes it seems like we are the only group on earth doing this. Not just once in awhile or for a year or so but always and forever until God says to stop.  He also said his people would be united. Ain't  Never heard of a Southern JW's or a Fundamentalist JW, or a Independant JW.  


By doing these things, He blesses me and I'm doing what I truely believe to be right and pleasing in his eyes. Well guess thats it. You've treated me with a fine degree of dignity and respect. I sincerely appreciate it. Now, (ha) let the bashin begin.


----------



## hobbs27

Moonpie..
 Do you believe the Lord returned in 1914 and rules as King on earth through the watchtower society?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

MoonPie said:


> Seeing the many threads and posts that tore up JW's, I felt it time to thread. Thank you to those who've been humble, respectful, and loving and hope you have felt me to be the same. Knowing that humility is  part of being a true Christian, and know many on this thread have a good grasp of scripture, I almost  think that the condescending posts are be out of place. Still, it gives me somewhat of a reason to defend my beliefs before you lay into me again and give y'all an idea of how I got to where I am.
> 
> Some have portrayed me as being a ignorant lamb been led away to the slaughter.  Actually the truth is, it has been many years and  a long and exhaustive study of the Bible that has brought me to this point.  It started many years before becoming a Jehovah's Witness so no one led me in with mind control or the like. The fact is - some of what I'd been taught was not Biblical. Believing the Bible to be the word of God, and recognizing that the answers were there somewhere in it, the next step was to make a serious study. No longer was the time of being ready to accept things just because the crowd did or the preacher said. When a scripture like John 1:1 encouraged the belief that Jesus was God and I was encouraged to think that, why would the reading of the entire rest of the book teach that he was the Son of God. And why would Jesus say in Jn 20:17 that he was ascending to "my  father and your father and to my God and your God". I looked at the entire book, and the many cross scriptures that delt with it. When the apostles asked Jesus who do you think me to be, their answer was - you are the Son of God.  And if Jesus is God where was God between the time Jesus died and was resurrected. Well, then theres the trinity? He now did not fit there. God himself stated that he is ONE God (Is 44:6 KJV ... "I am the first, I am the last: beside me there is no God"). Not that truth is found there, but even the public library confirms these things. Still and importantly, Jesus being God's son takes nothing from him. As firstborn of all creation. The second-greatest personage in the universe, all prayer goes through him and we do all we can to imitate him.
> 
> Every question, after letting the Bible prove itself to be God's word, can be answered by it. But searching out the truth from the scriptures is not always easy. In fact the Bible says this not always easy (Pro. 2:4 like searching for silver) and wanted us to search out his word for this accurate knowledge. Jesus spoke of  a narrow road leading to life that few would find (Matt 8:13) and a wide and easy one leading off into destruction that many would find. I want to be one of the few.
> 
> My Lord, how the intellectual and the debating can go on forever, but Jesus had a negative view of this (Matt 11:25) where he keeps the truth from the intellectuals while revealing it to babes. This thought always encourages me cause I am a flunky.  It's way more rewarding actually doing what Jesus commanded being of out there.  Going therefore, making disciples. Sometimes it seems like we are the only group on earth doing this. Not just once in awhile or for a year or so but always and forever until God says to stop.  He also said his people would be united. Ain't  Never heard of a Southern JW's or a Fundamentalist JW, or a Independant JW.
> 
> 
> By doing these things, He blesses me and I'm doing what I truely believe to be right and pleasing in his eyes. Well guess thats it. You've treated me with a fine degree of dignity and respect. I sincerely appreciate it. Now, (ha) let the bashin begin.


Hey friend, thanks for sharing. I very much respect someone's belief when it was founded on much study and soul searching,  agree or not, it is those who have not studied but rather continue with a mom and pop, grandma religion, this I can't respect.  As far as those whom disagree with your belief, I have found most to be respectful, but since it is a discussion forum, everyone feels free to disagree, and rightly so. It makes interesting discussions. I liked how you introduced your intentions in the OP. I have several questions about the Jw beliefs but refrained from asking them because it could change the direction of your intentions of the thread.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> Moonpie..
> Do you believe the Lord returned in 1914 and rules as King on earth through the watchtower society?


I have never heard this? Is this a JW belief


----------



## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> I have never heard this? Is this a JW belief



Since Im not a JW I dont think it would be fair for me to answer what they believe or dont on this thread, seeing how it is started by a participating JW, I was asking moonpie because according to a JW friend of mine this is a JW belief.

 Funny thing, I believe the Lord has returned also, just as He said He would and when He said He would.. Within the generation of the people that were alive while He ministered to the Jew of the coming Kingdom.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

MoonPie.  I appreciate the dialog and the spirit of love in which you have shared it.  I have a very dear friend who is JW though not active.  There are a lot of issues that I have doctrinally with JWs (most notably with who they say Jesus was and the fact that they deny his physical resurrection).   Personally I just can't understand if Jesus is not God incarnate and was not physically resurrected how I am saved.  That aside (and the same is true with the LDSs) I applaude the way both they and your Churches proselytize, and wish all churches displayed the same fervor.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

SemperFiDawg said:


> MoonPie.  I appreciate the dialog and the spirit of love in which you have shared it.  I have a very dear friend who is JW though not active.  There are a lot of issues that I have doctrinally with JWs (most notably with who they say Jesus was and the fact that they deny his physical resurrection).   Personally I just can't understand if Jesus is not God incarnate and was not physically resurrected how I am saved.  That aside (and the same is true with the LDSs) I applaude the way both they and your Churches proselytize, and wish all churches displayed the same fervor.


I did not know they deny his physical resurrection???? I wonder if within JW circles, different beliefs are held. Because I have talked with two different ones from different locals and their beliefs were different.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

SemperFiDawg said:


> Personally I just can't understand if Jesus is not God incarnate and was not physically resurrected how I am saved.  That aside (and the same is true with the LDSs) I applaude the way both they and your Churches proselytize, and wish all churches displayed the same fervor.


May I address the view of having to be God to pay the price. Many think that a sinless God only could pay the debt. But consider the example, "a lamb without spot or blemish". This is only an outward appearence and does not tell us entirely about the lamb.  Jesus being sinless was not a requirement, but rather a fullfilled prophecy. Continuity is key so we start at the beginning. A sacrifice for sin was made in the making of garments for Adam and eve. From the beginning we see that the firstborn was the sacrifice with the story of Cain and Abel. We see God tell Abraham to go sacrifice his firstborn at which time he declares that he will provide a sacrifice. The Jews sacrificed substitutes that were not able to clear the conscience, but just a reminder of the substitute. Also, going a step farther, the Levites were commisiioned to serve in the temple as substitutes of the firstborn sons. All firstborn sons were to serve God in the temple but with the sin of the golden calf, the Levites were given this task. So, all firstborn sons were to make an offering to the Levites for being their substitute. Only the firstborn had to do this, redeeming the remainder of the family. The second and third need not because it was accomplished by the first. But this offering was again, a constant reminder that a substitute stood in the temple, that the real sacrifice and the real firstborn son was yet to be revealed. This is why Jesus is called "the firstborn of many brothers" and "our high priest in service to God". This was the issue to believe or not to believe, that Jesus was the son of God. If he is the son of God, then he redeems the remainder of the family.  No where are we asked to believe he is God, but rather that he is the son of God. This is the explanation of the view/belief opposite of Jesus having to be God in order to pay sin debt. Courious if this would be close to a JW belief???


----------



## fish hawk

MoonPie said:


> Seeing the many threads and posts that tore up JW's, I felt it time to thread. Thank you to those who've been humble, respectful, and loving and hope you have felt me to be the same. Knowing that humility is  part of being a true Christian, and know many on this thread have a good grasp of scripture, I almost  think that the condescending posts are be out of place. Still, it gives me somewhat of a reason to defend my beliefs before you lay into me again and give y'all an idea of how I got to where I am.
> 
> Some have portrayed me as being a ignorant lamb been led away to the slaughter.  Actually the truth is, it has been many years and  a long and exhaustive study of the Bible that has brought me to this point.  It started many years before becoming a Jehovah's Witness so no one led me in with mind control or the like. The fact is - some of what I'd been taught was not Biblical. Believing the Bible to be the word of God, and recognizing that the answers were there somewhere in it, the next step was to make a serious study. No longer was the time of being ready to accept things just because the crowd did or the preacher said. When a scripture like John 1:1 encouraged the belief that Jesus was God and I was encouraged to think that, why would the reading of the entire rest of the book teach that he was the Son of God. And why would Jesus say in Jn 20:17 that he was ascending to "my  father and your father and to my God and your God". I looked at the entire book, and the many cross scriptures that delt with it. When the apostles asked Jesus who do you think me to be, their answer was - you are the Son of God.  And if Jesus is God where was God between the time Jesus died and was resurrected. Well, then theres the trinity? He now did not fit there. God himself stated that he is ONE God (Is 44:6 KJV ... "I am the first, I am the last: beside me there is no God"). Not that truth is found there, but even the public library confirms these things. Still and importantly, Jesus being God's son takes nothing from him. As firstborn of all creation. The second-greatest personage in the universe, all prayer goes through him and we do all we can to imitate him.
> 
> Every question, after letting the Bible prove itself to be God's word, can be answered by it. But searching out the truth from the scriptures is not always easy. In fact the Bible says this not always easy (Pro. 2:4 like searching for silver) and wanted us to search out his word for this accurate knowledge. Jesus spoke of  a narrow road leading to life that few would find (Matt 8:13) and a wide and easy one leading off into destruction that many would find. I want to be one of the few.
> 
> My Lord, how the intellectual and the debating can go on forever, but Jesus had a negative view of this (Matt 11:25) where he keeps the truth from the intellectuals while revealing it to babes. This thought always encourages me cause I am a flunky.  *It's way more rewarding actually doing what Jesus commanded being of out there.  Going therefore, making disciples. Sometimes it seems like we are the only group on earth doing this. Not just once in awhile or for a year or so but always and forever until God says to stop.*  He also said his people would be united. Ain't  Never heard of a Southern JW's or a Fundamentalist JW, or a Independant JW.
> 
> 
> By doing these things, He blesses me and I'm doing what I truely believe to be right and pleasing in his eyes. Well guess thats it. You've treated me with a fine degree of dignity and respect. I sincerely appreciate it. Now, (ha) let the bashin begin.



Witnessing and works is not what gets you saved........And believe me, your not the only ones out sharing the love of Christ to people.
Why do yall believe that only 144,000 will be going to heaven and the rest will inhabit a new earth?
And why do yall believe that Jehovah Witnesses are the only people that are truly saved?Isnt that for God to judge and not man?


----------



## SemperFiDawg

1gr8bldr said:


> May I address the view of having to be God to pay the price. Many think that a sinless God only could pay the debt. But consider the example, "a lamb without spot or blemish". This is only an outward appearence and does not tell us entirely about the lamb.  Jesus being sinless was not a requirement, but rather a fullfilled prophecy. Continuity is key so we start at the beginning. A sacrifice for sin was made in the making of garments for Adam and eve. From the beginning we see that the firstborn was the sacrifice with the story of Cain and Abel. We see God tell Abraham to go sacrifice his firstborn at which time he declares that he will provide a sacrifice. The Jews sacrificed substitutes that were not able to clear the conscience, but just a reminder of the substitute. Also, going a step farther, the Levites were commisiioned to serve in the temple as substitutes of the firstborn sons. All firstborn sons were to serve God in the temple but with the sin of the golden calf, the Levites were given this task. So, all firstborn sons were to make an offering to the Levites for being their substitute. Only the firstborn had to do this, redeeming the remainder of the family. The second and third need not because it was accomplished by the first. But this offering was again, a constant reminder that a substitute stood in the temple, that the real sacrifice and the real firstborn son was yet to be revealed. This is why Jesus is called "the firstborn of many brothers" and "our high priest in service to God". This was the issue to believe or not to believe, that Jesus was the son of God. If he is the son of God, then he redeems the remainder of the family.  No where are we asked to believe he is God, but rather that he is the son of God. This is the explanation of the view/belief opposite of Jesus having to be God in order to pay sin debt. Courious if this would be close to a JW belief???



If Jesus being sinless wasn't a requirement  then to my understanding if he was sinful also he could not be my savior because he would need a savior of his own.  The very fact that he was sinless allowed him to die for MY SIN.

Christ plainly says " I and the Father are one." And in John 14 he essentially pleads with Phillip to believe it, in essence telling him that if he can't believe it based on his word then to believe it based on the miracles Phillip had witnessed with his own eyes.

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.


----------



## hobbs27

SemperFiDawg said:


> If Jesus being sinless wasn't a requirement  then to my understanding if he was sinful also he could not be my savior because he would need a savior of his own.  The very fact that he was sinless allowed him to die for MY SIN.
> 
> Christ plainly says " I and the Father are one." And in John 14 he essentially pleads with Phillip to believe it, in essence telling him that if he can't believe it based on his word then to believe it based on the miracles Phillip had witnessed with his own eyes.
> 
> 8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
> 
> 9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.



I agree with you 100% on this issue, but sometimes actions speak louder than words. 

 In the Revelation John bowed down to worship an angel and was rebuked for it:

Revelation 22:8-9
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.


Yet When He saw Jesus and fell to worship, he was not rebuked for Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. One God!

Revelation 1:10-18

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of he11 and of death.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

SemperFiDawg said:


> If Jesus being sinless wasn't a requirement  then to my understanding if he was sinful also he could not be my savior because he would need a savior of his own.  The very fact that he was sinless allowed him to die for MY SIN.
> 
> Christ plainly says " I and the Father are one." And in John 14 he essentially pleads with Phillip to believe it, in essence telling him that if he can't believe it based on his word then to believe it based on the miracles Phillip had witnessed with his own eyes.
> 
> 8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
> 
> 9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.


He did need saving? He was a man, born under the curse of "you will surely die". All men, sinners or not fall under this curse. If he was any part man. That is why he was the "firstborn from the dead". Jesus had faith that God would do as said in the scriptures, raise his firstborn, not let him see decay.


----------



## Artfuldodger

fish hawk said:


> Witnessing and works is not what gets you saved........And believe me, your not the only ones out sharing the love of Christ to people.
> Why do yall believe that only 144,000 will be going to heaven and the rest will inhabit a new earth?
> And why do yall believe that Jehovah Witnesses are the only people that are truly saved?Isnt that for God to judge and not man?



Matthew 6:10
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

What Kingdom is this? What is the new heaven and new earth?


----------



## Artfuldodger

When we look at the views of just the members of this forum we see many differences, not just the JW"s. Some members don't believe Jesus was his Father. Some believe Jesus was resurrected spiritually and God made his body resurrect as just proof to the disciples that he resurrected spiritually. Some believe Jesus has already come again, perhaps more than once. Some members believe He!! isn't a physical burning place. Some believe if you don't receive salvation, you die when you die. Some members believe God's kingdom will be in a new heaven and new earth.
With all of the differences in mainstream Christianity, Protestants, Catholics, Oneness, etc., it's not that the JW's or LDS has a monopoly of differences.
I agree we should discuss these differences and doing so will help us learn. One thing 1gr8bldr said that I agree with is to not just accept what your family or preacher tells you. Grab a Bible and figure it out for yourself. Question all of the spirits and I mean "all."


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> When we look at the views of just the members of this forum we see many differences, not just the JW"s. Some members don't believe Jesus was his Father. Some believe Jesus was resurrected spiritually and God made his body resurrect as just proof to the disciples that he resurrected spiritually. Some believe Jesus has already come again, perhaps more than once. Some members believe He!! isn't a physical burning place. Some believe if you don't receive salvation, you die when you die. Some members believe God's kingdom will be in a new heaven and new earth.
> With all of the differences in mainstream Christianity, Protestants, Catholics, Oneness, etc., it's not that the JW's or LDS has a monopoly of differences.
> I agree we should discuss these differences and doing so will help us learn. One thing 1gr8bldr said that I agree with is to not just accept what your family or preacher tells you. *Grab a Bible and figure it out for yourself*. Question all of the spirits and I mean "all."


We often come to different conclusions.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

We do often disagree on Christianity.... but I visit many other forums and I can say without doubt that this one is the most accepting of other beliefs. Not that they accept anything but rather that we are all responsible for ourselves and acknowledge that many people interpret the scriptures differently. We discuss our own belief as if it were right, yet it does not become a point of controversy. Thanks guys. I enjoy the discussion and chance to air out my beliefs and to ponder others beliefs


----------



## SemperFiDawg

1gr8bldr said:


> He did need saving?



Not sure what you mean by this statement with a ?



1gr8bldr said:


> He was a man, born under the curse of "you will surely die".



And he did die a physical death as you correctly note all do, but I feel that his physical death was necessary due to his being "fully man" and not as a result of any sin.  

Again, if Christ sinned he could NOT save anyone.  It was the very fact that he was sinless that made his offering of his body and his blood acceptable to God, and it's to this fact that there was a resurrection.  There never would have been a resurrection had Christ been sinful.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

hobbs27 said:


> I agree with you 100% on this issue, but sometimes actions speak louder than words.
> 
> In the Revelation John bowed down to worship an angel and was rebuked for it:
> 
> Revelation 22:8-9
> 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
> 
> 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
> 
> 
> Yet When He saw Jesus and fell to worship, he was not rebuked for Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. One God!
> 
> Revelation 1:10-18
> 
> 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
> 
> 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
> 
> 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
> 
> 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
> 
> 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
> 
> 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
> 
> 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
> 
> 17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
> 
> 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of he11 and of death.



Great example.  I had forgotten about that.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

1gr8bldr said:


> I did not know they deny his physical resurrection???? I wonder if within JW circles, different beliefs are held. Because I have talked with two different ones from different locals and their beliefs were different.



I think their doctrines are pretty set in stone as most others denominations are.  I would venture to guess the differences come from a lack of understanding, also present in other denominations.  Or maybe there are some that just pick and chose what they wish to believe.  That's also prevalent across the board.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

SemperFiDawg said:


> Not sure what you mean by this statement with a ?
> 
> 
> 
> And he did die a physical death as you correctly note all do, but I feel that his physical death was necessary due to his being "fully man" and not as a result of any sin.
> 
> Again, if Christ sinned he could NOT save anyone.  It was the very fact that he was sinless that made his offering of his body and his blood acceptable to God, and it's to this fact that there was a resurrection.  There never would have been a resurrection had Christ been sinful.


Just to clarify, I think Christ could have sinned but did not.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

1gr8bldr said:


> Just to clarify, I think Christ could have sinned but did not.



I agree.


----------



## rjcruiser

Hmm...I think the biggest issue I have is that JWs don't believe Jesus is God.

Imho, to deny this fact is to deny Christ.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

SemperFiDawg said:


> I agree.


Not many will agree with us. They say that since Jesus was God, he was incapable of sin.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> Hmm...I think the biggest issue I have is that JWs don't believe Jesus is God.
> 
> Imho, to deny this fact is to deny Christ.



If one believes Jesus died for one's sins, how is that denying Christ as their savior? Please don't quote a verse showing Jesus is God. Just quote a verse requiring a belief that Jesus is God to obtain salvation. I would like possibly two verses to show this requirement. I know there are plenty of verses that say Jesus is God, that's not what I'm looking for.


----------



## panfried0419

Why do they have to knock so loud so early.....on a Saturday???


----------



## Ruger#3

Artfuldodger said:


> If one believes Jesus died for one's sins, how is that denying Christ as their savior? Please don't quote a verse showing Jesus is God. Just quote a verse requiring a belief that Jesus is God to obtain salvation. I would like possibly two verses to show this requirement. I know there are plenty of verses that say Jesus is God, that's not what I'm looking for.



Respectfully, how would one interpret this otherwise. This is to continue discussion not challenge anyones belief.

John

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Acts

" And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Artfuldodger said:


> If one believes Jesus died for one's sins, how is that denying Christ as their savior? Please don't quote a verse showing Jesus is God. Just quote a verse requiring a belief that Jesus is God to obtain salvation. I would like possibly two verses to show this requirement. I know there are plenty of verses that say Jesus is God, that's not what I'm looking for.



Your question doesn't correspond to rjs quote



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by rjcruiser
> Hmm...I think the biggest issue I have is that JWs don't believe Jesus is God.
> 
> Imho, to deny this fact is to deny Christ.



He's talking about Jesus being God incarnate.

According to your question 



Artfuldodger said:


> If one believes Jesus died for one's sins, how is that denying Christ as their savior?



Jesus could have been a Chicken as long as one believed he died for their sins and was their savior.

The point is "Who do you say Jesus was?"  

If he was is not "God Incarnate" then for all practical purposes all you have left to chose from is a created being like.........a chicken or a man, neither of which can save you.

How's that?  No verse at all as per your request....just a bit of common sense.


----------



## Artfuldodger

SemperFiDawg said:


> Your question doesn't correspond to rjs quote
> 
> 
> 
> He's talking about Jesus being God incarnate.
> 
> According to your question
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus could have been a Chicken as long as one believed he died for their sins and was their savior.
> 
> The point is "Who do you say Jesus was?"
> 
> If he was is not "God Incarnate" then for all practical purposes all you have left to chose from is a created being like.........a chicken or a man, neither of which can save you.
> 
> How's that?  No verse at all as per your request....just a bit of common sense.



God thought it necessary for his son to be manifest as a man, in the form of his only begotton son to die for our sins.
If God required a belief that his son was in fact really him as a term for our salvation, he would not leave it to man's common sense. He would have told us. Again what single verse tells me that I must believe Jesus is his Father for salvation?


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Artfuldodger said:


> God thought it necessary for his son to be manifest as a man, in the form of his only begotton son to die for our sins.
> If God required a belief that his son was in fact really him as a term for our salvation, he would not leave it to man's common sense. He would have told us. Again what single verse tells me that I must believe Jesus is his Father for salvation?



Never said nor implied that God required it.  I think God saves us based on how we respond to what we do understand.  Again, two separate issues.


----------



## Artfuldodger

SemperFiDawg said:


> Never said nor implied that God required it.  I think God saves us based on how we respond to what we do understand.  Again, two separate issues.



I agree. Maybe RJ's definition of denying Christ is different from mine.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

SemperFiDawg said:


> Your question doesn't correspond to rjs quote
> 
> 
> 
> He's talking about Jesus being God incarnate.
> 
> According to your question
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus could have been a Chicken as long as one believed he died for their sins and was their savior.
> 
> The point is "Who do you say Jesus was?"


I will answer in the same words of Peter, "You are the son of the living God". Yet, this has varying meanings throughout Christian circles


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree. Maybe RJ's definition of denying Christ is different from mine.


The word "Christ" has meaning.... as you know. I wonder if he worded his response as he intended to.... cause I did not quite get that. Although I knew what he meant to say. Edit, I looked back at the post. He was using the word in name, not meaning


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree. Maybe RJ's definition of denying Christ is different from mine.


----------



## hobbs27

Matthew 28:18

And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.


----------



## hobbs27

"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,




Acts 4:
10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11 He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”


Exodus 3:14

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"


The I AM statements of Jesus

Who do you say Jesus is? Jesus asked this same question to his disciples about what others thought of him and then asked what they thought of him.

Jn.5:37: "And the Father himself, who sent me, has borne witness of me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. ‘Jesus gives the source of his commission, which is from the Father personally. It is the Fathers voice and form they have not seen, yet Christ has.

Christ who is called the exact image of the invisible Father is the voice that the people heard. He then says that they search the Scriptures in them you think you have eternal life but they testify of me."(v.39) The Son is said to be the eternal life with the Father. Are we to believe the Scriptures testify of only a human being and not God himself? In the end of the discourse Jesus says in vs.46-47 "If you believed Moses you would believe Me; for he wrote about me. But if you don’t believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

When did Moses write of him? Deut.18:15-19: "The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, "according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' "And the LORD said to me: 'What they have spoken is good. 'I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 'And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him." Jesus claims to be the prophet Moses spoke of that should listen to. Notice that it says they did not want to hear the voice of the Lord anymore or see his glory in Horeb. Then God says he will put his words in a future prophets mouth if they do not listen to his words, God will require it of him." This very thing Jesus said of himself in Jn.8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am (He), you will die in your sins."

John 6:51:"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;"

John 8:23: And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I AM from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 8:12: Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I AM the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

John 10:9: "I AM the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

John 10:11: "I AM the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

John 10:36: "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 15:1: "I AM the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

John 19:2: Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews,' but, 'He said, "I am the King of the Jews."'"

Acts 7:32: Stephen speaking of Moses' encounter at the burning bush  "saying, 'I am the God of your fathers-- the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' And Moses trembled and dared not look."

Acts 9:5: And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."

The I Am In the Old Testament was whatever man needed. He became, he was his all in all. Jesus in the New Testament uses all the examples to show who He is. He is everything to man and the only way to God.

The most important of all the statements is in  John 8:24 after he tells them I am not of this world.
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am [He], you will die in your sins." ( he is not in the original). He is communicating to them he is the same I AM that Moses met at the burning bush which commissioned him.

http://www.letusreason.org/trin16.htm


----------



## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acts 4:
> 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11 He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
> 
> 
> Exodus 3:14
> 
> God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
> 
> 
> The I AM statements of Jesus
> 
> Who do you say Jesus is? Jesus asked this same question to his disciples about what others thought of him and then asked what they thought of him.
> 
> Jn.5:37: "And the Father himself, who sent me, has borne witness of me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. ‘Jesus gives the source of his commission, which is from the Father personally. It is the Fathers voice and form they have not seen, yet Christ has.
> 
> Christ who is called the exact image of the invisible Father is the voice that the people heard. He then says that they search the Scriptures in them you think you have eternal life but they testify of me."(v.39) The Son is said to be the eternal life with the Father. Are we to believe the Scriptures testify of only a human being and not God himself? In the end of the discourse Jesus says in vs.46-47 "If you believed Moses you would believe Me; for he wrote about me. But if you don’t believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"
> 
> When did Moses write of him? Deut.18:15-19: "The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, "according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' "And the LORD said to me: 'What they have spoken is good. 'I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 'And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him." Jesus claims to be the prophet Moses spoke of that should listen to. Notice that it says they did not want to hear the voice of the Lord anymore or see his glory in Horeb. Then God says he will put his words in a future prophets mouth if they do not listen to his words, God will require it of him." This very thing Jesus said of himself in Jn.8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am (He), you will die in your sins."
> 
> John 6:51:"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;"
> 
> John 8:23: And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I AM from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
> 
> John 8:12: Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I AM the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."
> 
> John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
> 
> John 10:9: "I AM the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."
> 
> John 10:11: "I AM the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
> 
> John 10:36: "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
> 
> John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
> 
> John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
> 
> John 15:1: "I AM the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
> 
> John 19:2: Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews,' but, 'He said, "I am the King of the Jews."'"
> 
> Acts 7:32: Stephen speaking of Moses' encounter at the burning bush  "saying, 'I am the God of your fathers-- the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' And Moses trembled and dared not look."
> 
> Acts 9:5: And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."
> 
> The I Am In the Old Testament was whatever man needed. He became, he was his all in all. Jesus in the New Testament uses all the examples to show who He is. He is everything to man and the only way to God.
> 
> The most important of all the statements is in  John 8:24 after he tells them I am not of this world.
> "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am [He], you will die in your sins." ( he is not in the original). He is communicating to them he is the same I AM that Moses met at the burning bush which commissioned him.
> 
> http://www.letusreason.org/trin16.htm


Hey friend, If you look back over this you will notice than none of these say that Jesus is God, but many people deduce from this that this must mean it so. I just wanted to point out that. To some, it's right there, to others, it's where?


----------



## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey friend, If you look back over this you will notice than none of these say that Jesus is God, but many people deduce from this that this must mean it so. I just wanted to point out that. To some, it's right there, to others, it's where?



I understand. I dont need Jesus to verbally say it, as many times as He made it obvious.


----------



## grizlbr

Artfuldodger said:


> It's not Biblical and some celebrations have Pagan origins.
> So if the star the Magi followed was Halley's comet it was visible in April- May: Easter. So was Christmas around Pass Over so Believers would not feel left out? Just a thought, like the reason Russia can not hit the moon is the day in old testament where the sun stood still about a day so they could finish the battle. That would validate Bible history  .


----------



## Nerf Warrior

John 1:1... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God..


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Nerf Warrior said:


> John 1:1... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God..


Some see this as the smoking gun, yet I don't see it at all


----------



## hobbs27

Looks like we lost the JW, I was hoping he would hang around for a little while.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Matthew 28:18
> 
> And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.



Who gave Jesus this authority?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Nerf Warrior said:


> John 1:1... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God..



That verse has been used by some to prove Jesus is God. Does that verse show a belief that Jesus is God is necessary for salvation? Again, I'm not looking for verses that show Jesus is God but that there is a required belief that he is for salvation. Must a newly saved person who just testified to the world by mouth that he believes Jesus died for his sins, believe that Jesus is God? Show me four verses that say that. We should never use just one verse to prove anything. Also as suggested on another thread about speculating:
IMHO it's better to say "I don't know."


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> That verse has been used by some to prove Jesus is God. Does that verse show a belief that Jesus is God is necessary for salvation? Again, I'm not looking for verses that show Jesus is God but that there is a required belief that he is for salvation. Must a newly saved person who just testified to the world by mouth that he believes Jesus died for his sins, believe that Jesus is God? Show me four verses that say that. We should never use just one verse to prove anything. Also as suggested on another thread about speculating:
> IMHO it's better to say "I don't know."



Agree.  I'm certain there were huge numbers of 1st century Christians that hadn't even been taught the fullness of who Jesus was.

One is saved by faith, not comprehension.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Back to the OP, are these two verses in Acts the main justification for not eating blood? How do you get around eating meat where the blood is cooked? How does not eating blood verses constitute not receiving blood transfusion? Do JW's have special butcher shops who verify the animal wasn't strangled? 

Acts 15:20
Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

Acts 15:29
You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.


----------



## MoonPie

Artfuldodger said:


> Back to the OP, are these two verses in Acts the main justification for not eating blood? How do you get around eating meat where the blood is cooked? How does not eating blood verses constitute not receiving blood transfusion? Do JW's have special butcher shops who verify the animal wasn't strangled?
> 
> Acts 15:20
> Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
> 
> 
> 
> Acts 15:29
> You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.



I hunt and do not strangle my kill. All our family's meat (guess we are around 90% vegetarian) comes from me. As a group we do observe this command, but at the same time do not become obsessed with this issue.


----------



## Artfuldodger

MoonPie said:


> I hunt and do not strangle my kill. All our family's meat (guess we are around 90% vegetarian) comes from me. As a group we do observe this command, but at the same time do not become obsessed with this issue.



OK, we won't dwell on cooked blood. On to the resurrection or life for the eternal. Will you live eternity as a spirit, resurrected being of flesh & bones, or just keep on living as you are in your body of flesh & blood? Eternity being  the Kingdom.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> OK, we won't dwell on cooked blood. On to the resurrection or life for the eternal. Will you live eternity as a spirit, resurrected being of flesh & bones, or just keep on living as you are in your body of flesh & blood? Eternity being  the Kingdom.


LOL, I got so many questions, but I don't want to look like I am attacking. Truth is, that I am very close in beliefs "on what I am aware of"


----------



## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> LOL, I got so many questions, but I don't want to look like I am attacking. Truth is, that I am very close in beliefs "on what I am aware of"



Yeah me too! I think if Moonpie looks back at some of my posts, yours, or even Hobbs27, he would see similar beliefs in some respect regarding non-trinitarian for you and me, Jesus already returning, kingdom already, resurrection of Jesus as spirit, in Hobbs27. I doubt any of us believe Jesus is Michael though. That gets as confusing as the Trinity. Jesus dying as Jesus but resurrecting a Michael or something like that.
We might also have similar ideas on He!! and God's Kingdom. Jesus did teach a lot on God's Kingdom. 
I would think Moonpie knows who is attacking and who isn't. I hope he hangs around to witness and fellowship.


----------



## MoonPie

Artfuldodger said:


> Will you live eternity as a spirit, resurrected being of flesh & bones, or just keep on living as you are in your body of flesh & blood? Eternity being  the Kingdom.



Afd, Here are a few Scriptures that encourage me: 

Psalm 37:29 The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it. 
Matthew 6:10 Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. 
Psalm 37:9 For evil men will be done away with, But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth. 
Proverbs 2:21 For only the upright will reside in the earth, And the blameless will remain in it. 
Matthew 5:5 Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.

This page can answer a lot of questions. http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/


----------



## MoonPie

Artfuldodger said:


> I would think Moonpie knows who is attacking and who isn't. I hope he hangs around to witness and fellowship.


Be my privilege.


----------



## M80

MoonPie said:


> Afd, Here are a few Scriptures that encourage me:
> 
> Psalm 37:29 The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.
> Matthew 6:10 Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.
> Psalm 37:9 For evil men will be done away with, But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth.
> Proverbs 2:21 For only the upright will reside in the earth, And the blameless will remain in it.
> Matthew 5:5 Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.
> 
> This page can answer a lot of questions. http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/



What will happen to the evil men that are done away with


----------



## hobbs27

Hobbs27 said:
			
		

> Moonpie..
> Do you believe the Lord returned in 1914 and rules as King on earth through the watchtower society?






			
				1gr8bldr said:
			
		

> I have never heard this? Is this a JW belief





			
				Hobbs27 said:
			
		

> Since Im not a JW I dont think it would be fair for me to answer what they believe or dont on this thread, seeing how it is started by a participating JW, I was asking moonpie because according to a JW friend of mine this is a JW belief.




 Well, its time for me to answer this... the truth must come out.

What JW's believe about Christianity: Except for a few scattered individuals who kept the faith, true Christianity vanished from the face of the earth shortly after the death of the twelve apostles. It was not restored until charles taze russell set up the watchtower organization in the late 1870's . When Christ returned invisibly in 1914 , He found russells group doing the work of the "faithful and wise servant" Matthew 24:45. and appointed them over all His belongings. All other churches and professed Christians (US) are tools of the devil.

 They also believed and maybe still do im not sure, that the generation of people that witnessed Christs invisible return in 1914 would not pass away before Armegeddon comes Matthew 24:34.


----------



## drippin' rock

The good church going folks I know believe JW is a cult, just like Mormons, meaning they will burn.  Really surprised that hasn't come up here yet.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Well, its time for me to answer this... the truth must come out.
> 
> What JW's believe about Christianity: Except for a few scattered individuals who kept the faith, true Christianity vanished from the face of the earth shortly after the death of the twelve apostles. It was not restored until charles taze russell set up the watchtower organization in the late 1870's . When Christ returned invisibly in 1914 , He found russells group doing the work of the "faithful and wise servant" Matthew 24:45. and appointed them over all His belongings. All other churches and professed Christians (US) are tools of the devil.
> 
> They also believed and maybe still do im not sure, that the generation of people that witnessed Christs invisible return in 1914 would not pass away before Armegeddon comes Matthew 24:34.



When Christ returned in 70AD, was he visible? Is he still here on Earth in his Kingdom, invisibly ruling?

The JW story reminds me of a fellow named Martin Luther. He went against the Church with some different beliefs including that salvation was by faith alone.
Now I don't know how he stood on the salvation of individuals that believed salvation was by faith & works but some Christians believe salvation doesn't wait for the faith plus works crowd.
That would mean, there were no Christians between the Early Church and the Reformation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

drippin' rock said:


> The good church going folks I know believe JW is a cult, just like Mormons, meaning they will burn.  Really surprised that hasn't come up here yet.



Is there a Bible verse stating cult members aren't saved? God's grace isn't from God's choosing and salvation based on that grace plus our faith?
JWs and Mormons do not believe in a literal burning He11. Death and separation from God instead of everlasting life is their He11.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> When Christ returned in 70AD, was he visible? Is he still here on Earth in his Kingdom, invisibly ruling?



Art, it is my opinion based on my studies with the study of scriptures and prophecy in Matthew, Luke, and Revelation, plus the study of history about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD by the eye witnesses Titus and Josephus that Christs judgement was visible and the Jews knew whom the judgement was coming from. Did they see Christ? I believe they did along with those that pierced Him.

Jesus is Omnipresent. He is King of Kings, Lord of Lords. He rides the white horse, He fights the battle of Armageddon, He plagues the great prostitute,He's in the midst of the churchs' standing at the door knocking, He wants you to live in the great city....Revelation is past, present, and an ongoing future forever and ever, Amen, Amen.



			
				Artfuldodger said:
			
		

> The JW story reminds me of a fellow named Martin Luther. He went against the Church with some different beliefs including that salvation was by faith alone.


 Honestly?..Come on, be honest, you said that just to be contrary didnt you?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Honestly?..Come on, be honest, you said that just to be contrary didnt you?



No, just to show a comparison. I don't follow all of the beliefs of Martin Luther or Charles Taze Russell.  I feel they both missed a lot of correct doctrine. I don't place my faith in either.
JW's do place too much trust in man over scripture in my opinion as do many other mainstream Christians.
I just don't think no one has all of the answers and we're quick to adapt the beliefs of our parents.


----------



## Ronnie T

drippin' rock said:


> The good church going folks I know believe JW is a cult, just like Mormons, meaning they will burn.  Really surprised that hasn't come up here yet.



What would cause a person to refer to another religious group a cult?

Why not "unscriptural"  or  "unchristian"?

But why "cult"?


----------



## Ronnie T

Several people have accused me of being a cult member because my church beliefs are in the minority.

Any person who would do that is an egotistical, arrogant, blind follower of fodder.


----------



## Israel

As much as I am frequently tempted (and succumb) to believe Jesus is "my" personal savior...my excursions into owning him (instead of the other way round) get revealed for the folly they are a lot sooner than I'd previously experienced.
I am slowly beginning to appreciate that the testing of our faith, although it does not preclude a certain defense of that faith, also doesn't include my predisposition to decide where and to whom he may appear.
I think, like the strange case of Benjamin Button, I am going backwards, eventually heading to a perception of the true foundation of that faith, where once I, in great presumption, had assumed I had already launched from.
I am simply a latecomer to a party.
Or a feast, if you prefer a less modern interpretation.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> No, just to show a comparison. I don't follow all of the beliefs of Martin Luther or Charles Taze Russell.
> .
> I just don't think no one has all of the answers and we're quick to adapt the beliefs of our parents.



There's a huge difference in the direction the two men went., and I agree no one person has all the answers, I plan on spending the rest of my life here praying for more answers and praising Him for the ones He's already given.


----------



## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> As much as I am frequently tempted (and succumb) to believe Jesus is "my" personal savior...my excursions into owning him (instead of the other way round) get revealed for the folly they are a lot sooner than I'd previously experienced.
> I am slowly beginning to appreciate that the testing of our faith, although it does not preclude a certain defense of that faith, also doesn't include my predisposition to decide where and to whom he may appear.
> I think, like the strange case of Benjamin Button, I am going backwards, eventually heading to a perception of the true foundation of that faith, where once I, in great presumption, had assumed I had already launched from.
> I am simply a latecomer to a party.
> Or a feast, if you prefer a less modern interpretation.



The smallest glimpse of God is almost too much to bear.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/what-plants-talk-about/video-full-episode/8243/

While being very interested  in (often amazed by) this documentary about some glimpses God is revealing of His creation, most revealing of all is that I might deignedly think, even fleetingly, that I have pleased the Creator, or myself. 

It’s all about God!


----------



## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> What would cause a person to refer to another religious group a cult?
> 
> Why not "unscriptural"  or  "unchristian"?
> 
> But why "cult"?



Cults are generally puritanical in my view. They pit human activities against "Bible teachings" and exercise counter productive controls on members. By isolating ourselves from the examples Jesus gave to all as per the gospels, we walk not by the light of grace which is our Lord. But instead by the reasoning and interpretation of founders, leaders and the communities at large, cults would use the light of the old covenant, which is the law, to control all of life itself and call themselves christian. Yet, it is Jesus, God, in the hearts and lives of Christians that directs them. In cults Micah will be used, before the speaker of the Sermon on the Mount as the mouth piece of justice for example. 


Cults also use the gospels with minds and hearts still of the old covenant. They have difficulty assimilating the Trinity generally.

They use gospel to teach what not to do or "You- shall -nots". We will show that in the gospels what not to do, and  claim as highlight to good living the examples Romans 13:12-14, Galatians 5:19-21 and 1 Peter 4:3. And in this way we will isolate ourselves progressively from unclean things--regardless of what Jesus to our hearts or Paul to our minds, might communicate in our worship.

Cults read and interpret scripture as if one leader is a prophet and given special "in the spirit" gift of prophecy or vision, forgetting or unknowing, or purposely withholding that Christians or believers, for the cross, are now all prophets and seers and all have the spirit who are baptized!

If  (personally) I find that a christian community outside of the orthodox christian communities could be or could qualify as a movement of the greater christian community then they are not cults. In short if they don't have a church line that I can follow way back... then my ears perk up and I suspect someone did not come in the fold by the gate--but hopped the fence at some point instead.


----------



## MoonPie

hobbs27 said:


> Well, its time for me to answer this... the truth must come out... JW's believe... All other churches and professed Christians (US) are tools of the devil.


No. We’ve found that many people who already have a religion enjoy discussing Bible topics. Of course, we respect a person’s right to hold a belief different from ours, and we don’t force our message on others. It’s not anyones job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.—John 5:22, 27.

Still, Jesus Christ didn’t agree with the view that there are many religions, many roads, all leading to salvation. Rather, he said: “Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:14) Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that they’ve found that road. Otherwise, we’d look for another religion.

On a personal note, I believe that the Bible itself is true road /guide and that we are doing all humanly possible, though imperfectly, to follow it's guidelines.


----------



## M80

MoonPie said:


> Afd, Here are a few Scriptures that encourage me:
> 
> Psalm 37:29 The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.
> Matthew 6:10 Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.
> Psalm 37:9 For evil men will be done away with, But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth.
> Proverbs 2:21 For only the upright will reside in the earth, And the blameless will remain in it.
> Matthew 5:5 Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.
> 
> This page can answer a lot of questions. http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/



I still wished Moonpie would answer the question I asked about what is god going to do with the people in psalms 37.9


----------



## gordon 2

MoonPie said:


> No. We’ve found that many people who already have a religion enjoy discussing Bible topics. Of course, we respect a person’s right to hold a belief different from ours, and we don’t force our message on others. It’s not anyones job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.—John 5:22, 27.
> 
> Still, Jesus Christ didn’t agree with the view that there are many religions, many roads, all leading to salvation. Rather, he said: “Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:14) Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that they’ve found that road. Otherwise, we’d look for another religion.
> 
> On a personal note, I believe that the Bible itself is true road /guide and that we are doing all humanly possible, though imperfectly, to follow it's guidelines.



Ok...  yet, my friend,so what you believe might not be what scripture states. So since scripture is your guide, here's what scripture says concerning who or what is really the guide for believers and it is not scripture:
Colossians 2:8-9

English Standard Version (ESV)


8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits[a] of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,




Colossians 2:10

English Standard Version (ESV)


10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

------------------------

I remember the day when I vowed never to reply to a brother with line and verse. Yet today I do. The vows I make to myself are empty I guess. Such is my poverty--that I now must share the little I own.


----------



## kmh1031

*Ps 37:9*

To answer the question, until MoonPie does...
Simply put, they are going to be destroyed, much like the people of Sodom, the Flood etc.

Plenty of examples in the Bible when god destroyed ungodly/unrighteous people after giving them ample time to learn the truth, change their ways, and more.
kmh


----------



## Artfuldodger

kmh1031 said:


> To answer the question, until MoonPie does...
> Simply put, they are going to be destroyed, much like the people of Sodom, the Flood etc.
> 
> Plenty of examples in the Bible when god destroyed ungodly/unrighteous people after giving them ample time to learn the truth, change their ways, and more.
> kmh



And they'll die when they die? In other words, their souls will die also?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Speaking of Christian's souls at death is the subject of soul sleep which I think JW's follow.  I once believed in soul sleep but if we don't know, we don't know.
Judgement Day is an interesting topic for all believers. How long is Judgement Day and when is it? You can't be going to Heaven or eternal life when you die if you haven't been judged for your deeds.


----------



## kmh1031

Well, that is a good question..
the early Christians never believed in an immortal soul.

The bible clearly states at Ex 18.4 the soul that is sinning it itself will die.
Ecc 9:5 shows the condition of the dead.
Jesus referred to Lazarus as sleeping, (death is like a sleep like state) not in heaven, or someplace else.
None of the ones resurrected in the bible ever indicated they were somewhere else...when resurrected.

In Gen, God never said Adam/Eve would go someplace else after they died...just that if they eat from the tree, they would die...
The devil is the one that indicated that life would continue after death, and said, you positively will not die..

So, death is the final punishment. If you do the research on the soul, and belief that it is immortal, you will see that it is not founded in the early Christian teaching, but other religions at the time.


----------



## gordon 2

kmh1031 said:


> Well, that is a good question..
> the early Christians never believed in an immortal soul.
> 
> The bible clearly states at Ex 18.4 the soul that is sinning it itself will die.
> Ecc 9:5 shows the condition of the dead.
> Jesus referred to Lazarus as sleeping, (death is like a sleep like state) not in heaven, or someplace else.
> None of the ones resurrected in the bible ever indicated they were somewhere else...when resurrected.
> 
> In Gen, God never said Adam/Eve would go someplace else after they died...just that if they eat from the tree, they would die...
> The devil is the one that indicated that life would continue after death, and said, you positively will not die..
> 
> So, death is the final punishment. If you do the research on the soul, and belief that it is immortal, you will see that it is not founded in the early Christian teaching, but other religions at the time.





Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV)
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


----------



## kmh1031

Gorden,
Thanks for the scripture reference to these holy ones.
Who do you think they are?


----------



## hobbs27

What of the rich man and Lazurus?


----------



## kmh1031

Thanks, but no not that one...that scriptural example was a parable,
the ones referred to in his scriptural quotes in Revelation..

I have my own views, but would be interested in his view..


----------



## MoonPie

MoonPie said:


> On a personal note, I believe that the Bible itself is true road /guide and that we are doing all humanly possible, though imperfectly, to follow it's guidelines.





gordon 2 said:


> Ok...  yet, my friend,so what you believe might not be what scripture states. So since scripture is your guide, here's what scripture says concerning who or what is really the guide for believers and it is not scripture:
> Colossians 2:8-9
> 8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits[a] of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
> ------------------------
> I remember the day when I vowed never to reply to a brother with line and verse. Yet today I do. The vows I make to myself are empty I guess. Such is my poverty--that I now must share the little I own.


I'm sorry, no disrespect but where in the world did you come up with this reply to my post? Arn't all of us who believe in the Bible as the word of God, though imperfect, trying to follow it's guidelines?


----------



## gordon 2

kmh1031 said:


> Gorden,
> Thanks for the scripture reference to these holy ones.
> Who do you think they are?



I would say anyone that craves for justice as per our Creator fits the answer line, those knowing it and seeing it not, or seeing it taken away. Of course the reference speaks of the slain for the word of God and for the testimony they held ---or the martyrs.


----------



## gordon 2

MoonPie said:


> I'm sorry, no disrespect but where in the world did you come up with this reply to my post? Arn't all of us who believe in the Bible as the word of God, though imperfect, trying to follow it's guidelines?


 I will agree with you on this. However all who believe are not of the same covenant. Some, though they share in name, follow the guidelines of one convenant, some another, or having a foot in all, are to none.

From the providence of God , for his grace, through Jesus our Savior, we are redeemed from our incomplete nature due the fall of man and to a more complete and intimate union with God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit for our born again nature with God as loving Father, His Son as our brother and the Holy Spirit as our teacher!

Although all of scripture is profitable it does not compare to the guiding Light which Christians can see for the example of Jesus and the Good News or for the new covenant where God is our's and we are His forever. 

Being raised up, born again whole in Jesus our Lord, why would I cower now to the faint light of old root cellars and crawl spaces of the old covenants for guidance  -- especially that I can stand up like a man in the light of Christ,  with brothers and sisters in Christ today?

"The bible's view" is not a view. My Lord's view is.  The point of view of Jesus is no contest compared to the "bible's view"  the latter which is often no more than the best assessments of "imperfect but trying man."  




Matthew 11:28-30
King James Version (KJV)
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


----------



## Artfuldodger

In Matthew 11:28-30 Jesus invites us all to receive his yoke. His yoke is easy. 
It took me awhile to believe this. Today there are Christians everywhere who feel like they must do more than this, witness, get Baptised, pray, repent, stop sinning, believe in the Trinity, believe in He!!, believe in a life in Heaven, freewill, predestination, and on and on.

What point are you making? That one must give their yoke to God and take on the yoke of Jesus to what extreme? If someone believes they must witness or try to stop sinning, why does this mean they haven't received the Yoke of Christ?
Can't someone go above and beyond the basic "grace & faith?"

What covenant are we really under?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Colossians 2:8-9
8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits[a] of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

I always thought Paul was talking about Dispensationalist, not JW's.

Dispensationalism: A Return to Biblical Theology or Pseudo Christian Cult – Part I
http://new-covenant.co.uk/group/pseudo-christianity/page/dispensationalism01#.UzYXN_svnJY


----------



## Artfuldodger

kmh1031 said:


> Well, that is a good question..
> the early Christians never believed in an immortal soul.
> 
> The bible clearly states at Ex 18.4 the soul that is sinning it itself will die.
> Ecc 9:5 shows the condition of the dead.
> Jesus referred to Lazarus as sleeping, (death is like a sleep like state) not in heaven, or someplace else.
> None of the ones resurrected in the bible ever indicated they were somewhere else...when resurrected.
> 
> In Gen, God never said Adam/Eve would go someplace else after they died...just that if they eat from the tree, they would die...
> The devil is the one that indicated that life would continue after death, and said, you positively will not die..
> 
> So, death is the final punishment. If you do the research on the soul, and belief that it is immortal, you will see that it is not founded in the early Christian teaching, but other religions at the time.



So what happens to the Christian's soul/body who dies a physical death? Do ya'll have Church members who don't die a physical death?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Colossians 2:8-9
> 8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits[a] of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
> 
> I always thought Paul was talking about Dispensationalist, not JW's.
> 
> Dispensationalism: A Return to Biblical Theology or Pseudo Christian Cult – Part I
> http://new-covenant.co.uk/group/pseudo-christianity/page/dispensationalism01#.UzYXN_svnJY




How could Paul be speaking of either, when neither existed?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> How could Paul be speaking of either, when neither existed?



Now I was being contrary. But I am interested in mortal souls and the non-spiritual world of eternal life on earth.
In your opinion resurrection is always spiritual and we won't be returning for a body. I wonder if the 144,000 that Jesus went to prepare a place for will go as mortal souls or spirits?
When will they go, when they die or at some future point?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Now I was being contrary. But I am interested in mortal souls and the non-spiritual world of eternal life on earth.
> In your opinion resurrection is always spiritual and we won't be returning for a body. I wonder if the 144,000 that Jesus went to prepare a place for will go as mortal souls or spirits?
> When will they go, when they die or at some future point?



Jesus is the only one resurrected in a physical body, the 144,000 left out already, and here is who they were,

Who were the 144,000 in Revelation? 

Answer: The 144,000 are mentioned only two times in scripture, both in the book of Revelation. Most people only read Chapter 14 and speculate who they are. But chapter 7 tells us who they are!

Compare Revelation 14:1,4 with Revelation 7:4-8. Chapter 7 clearly tells us who these 144,000 are. They are the twelve tribes of Israel that were living in the first century. Scripture even calls each tribe by name, and tells us how many of each tribe are part of the 144,000! 

Next, notice that the word "firstfruits" in Revelation 14:4 is used to describe the 144,000. Now compare this with the "firstfruits" in James 1:18. Who are these firstfruits? James already identified who these firstfruits were in James 1:1, at the very beginning of his epistle! Who are they? The twelve tribes of Israel living in the first century! These are all those elect Jews during the period from AD 30-70 (Romans 8:23). 

As for the 144,000 in Revelation 14:4, the phrase "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins" means these are they which are pure from idolatry, and are presented as unspotted virgins to their Lord and Savior Christ (see 2 Corinthians 11:2). 
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/preterist-questions.html


----------



## kmh1031

Just a comment on Jesus body, and who the 144,000 are...
The 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 most likely refer to spiritual Israel, and not the exact tribes for several key reasons. 

The listing does not match that of natural Israel at Numbers chapter 1. Also it is interesting to review other publications, because according to historical records, Jerusalem’s temple and priesthood and all the tribal records of natural Israel were permanently destroyed, lost forever, long before John had his vision in 96 C.E. 

But more important, the Apostle John received his vision upon a background of the previously mentioned developments from and after Pentecost 33 C.E. 

With this being known, John’s vision of those standing on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb, (whom natural Israel had rejected) revealed the number of this spiritual Israel of God to be 144,000 bought from among mankind as referenced by Re 7:4; 14:1, 4.

And as far as Jesus being resurrected in the physical body, I am not a believer in that, as I know he was seen by over 500 people, and was raised up in plain sight…however, no doubt turned into a spirit, once out of sight, so note these scriptures as a reference,

Jesus was put to death in the flesh, but he was made alive in the spirit as pointed out by 1 Pet 3:18

The scriptures point out that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom,” said the apostle Paul at 1Co 15:50 so this would also exclude flesh and bones don’t you think? 

Flesh and bones do not have life unless they have blood, for the blood contains the “soul” or that which is necessary for the life of the creature of flesh as referenced by Ge 9:4.


----------



## hobbs27

Just a comment on the late date of Johns vision..Most theologians are accepting the fact that the late date of 95 or 96 ad doesnt hold up.

The Late Date Theory
Those who hold to the "late date," have Revelation written during the time of Domitian Caesar (AD 95-96). This date is determined by the following statement by Irenaeus (AD 130 to AD 202), as quoted by Eusebius, the church historian, in AD 325: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign." 


There are things about this statement that need to be noted. First, Irenaeus did not witness this. He referred to Polycarp (who supposedly knew the apostle John). Secondly, the key part — "it is not long since it was seen" — is ambiguous. According to Irenaeus recollection, Polycarp saw "it" sometime in AD 95-96, during the last part Domitian's reign. Thirdly, we do not know if the "it" Polycarp was referring to was John, the visions he saw, the name of anti-christ, or the book itself and we do not know if he meant that the book was written at that time or not. Furthermore, it comes to us through three people separated by three centuries. Simply put, this is hear-say. 


This statement, even with all of this uncertainty, is the only evidence used to support the "late date" theory. It has been accepted by generations of people without really questioning it or examining it in light of the book itself. The late date has been passed on to us in the same way it was passed on to Eusebius, "…it [was] handed down by tradition…" Tradition is not the way to interpret Scripture. 


Another statement by Irenaeus seems to indicate the earlier date also. In his fifth book, he speaks as follows concerning the Apocalypse of John and the number of the name of the Antichrist: "As these things are so, and this number is found in all the approved and ancient copies." Domitian's reign was almost in his own day, but now he speaks of the Revelation being written in ancient copies. His statement at least gives some doubt as to the "vision" being seen in 95 AD which was almost in his day, and even suggests a time somewhat removed from his own day for him to consider the copies available to him as ancient.


----------



## Artfuldodger

kmh1031 said:


> Just a comment on Jesus body, and who the 144,000 are...
> The 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 most likely refer to spiritual Israel, and not the exact tribes for several key reasons.



How is it the 144,000 have souls but we don't? They went or will go to Heaven only as spirits. Doesn't that contradict your Church's beliefs on man having immortal souls? Why did they and Jesus have eternal life as spirit beings yet the rest of us must chug along eternity as mortals?
I thought we would become as Jesus is.


----------



## kmh1031

They, we are a living soul....and they die, and are resurrected, given life, immortality, bought from the earth as Rev 14:3 brings out.

If you read also in Revelation, you will see that in Revelation 7:9 it speaks of a great crowd that no one is able to number...these are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, that live on the earth, that were approved by god.

So, no we are not just chugging along..we can enjoy life here in the near future and enjoy the benefits of that kingdom we pray for...also fulfilling many scriptures about the meek inheriting the earth, and others as brought out in Ps 37. Also Rev 21:3 and 4. Perfect, free from death, crime, etc, and have the benefit of seeing our dead loved ones raised back as well..that is the purpose of the resurrection! 

Jesus as you know, shared a glimpse of the benefits of that kingdom, when he cured the blind, lame, and raised the dead....Dan 2:44 tells us this kingdom will crush all other kingdoms and stand to time indefinite. Jesus main message was the kingdom and the benefits..

When you think about it...who wants to die? Everybody wants to go to heaven...but no one wants to die...? Because God put in our hearts everlasting life...Adam lost that for us, and Jesus, restored that, or gave us a chance to have it back.
If there is a kingdom, then their is a king, Jesus, and the 144K are the co-rulers, bought from the earth....who better to help rule, than those who have lived here and able to judge based on experience. 


Subjects as the bible mentions? Then that would be us, that survive the great tribulation/and Armageddon...

Perhaps a different thought than many have imagined.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I'm OK with the co-rulers but how did they get to Heaven? Do they have flesh and blood, flesh and bones, or are they spirits?
Why did these mortal men have immortal souls?
I'm OK with living an eternal life on earth. I just want to live in God's presence. I don't really care if it's on Earth, Heaven, or a new Heaven or Earth. What happens if I die before my eternal live begins? 
Jesus being a man, why did his mortal body give up his ghost/soul/spirit?
I do not want to die. Eternal life is all I'm looking for. He!!, being physical, isn't that important. I would rather die when I die than go to He!!. Your religion does sound better in that respect. No Heaven but no He!! either. The wages of sin is death. Jesus promised everlasting life. I like it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

If it's not a comfortable subject of separating my soul from my dead body, what happens to "me" when I die? "Me" being my mind, body, & soul. If I don't go to an intermediate waiting place, then I must sleep until the Lord returns and I have a physical resurrection. 
Many Christians believe in a physical resurrection. 
How is a Christians physical death different from a non believers death or is it? 
Do all of the dead resurrect for the Millennium reign? If so then some people will die twice.


----------



## kmh1031

Lots of questions, but I will give it a try…
First of all they die…..and are resurrected to a spirit life…not flesh and blood, as previously stated, as flesh and blood cannot inherit gods kingdom..

Well we can read in Eph 1:13, 14 and 4:30 that the 1st century Christians are spoken of as being “sealed” by means of holy spirit, which is an advance token of their heavenly inheritance.  

The seal signifies their being God’s possession as it were, and shows that they are truly in line for heavenly life. You can read about this at  2 Cor 1;21 and 11.
Revelation, 7:2, and 9:4 shows the number finally sealed to be 144,000.   These called-out ones are “bought from among mankind” to carry out a special work here on earth and then to be with Christ in heaven as his bride. 

As there were requirements for membership in the Hebrew congregation of God, so there are requisites for membership in the Christian “congregation of God.” 
Again, Revelation points this out in Chapter 14, 1-5. 

 Those making it up are spiritual virgins who keep following the Lamb, Jesus Christ, no matter where he goes, “and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

Eternal life was what was provided in the beginning….on earth, man messed it up, that has not changed God’s original purpose for the earth to be populated by righteous people, living in peace, without the problems we now face including death…thus why we need his Kingdom soon.

And, if you die before the Great Tribulation, and ultimately Armageddon (war of God, not man), then hopefully you will be resurrected to a clean, new peaceful earth, as promised many times in the bible, and as mentioned in Ps 37 and other places…we know that as again, Jesus and the apostles, showed us, the benefits of the kingdom, and one was the resurrection hope!

Really no one can say who will be resurrected, but if you live according to Gods will, and obey his commandments, one would think we would be there, with the other faithful men of old, who died, but did not get the promise of life in heaven, but on earth as indicated by Heb 11:4.


----------



## kmh1031

Well, I will try to answer you last couple questions..

Judgment day, has long been discussed, and many opinions have been formulated as to exactly what it is, and who is involved. 

I too have thought much about this, and what is to take place and when.
According to the Apostle John’s vision, “scrolls were opened,” and “the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.” 

The scrolls are not the records of our past deeds, or what they did before they died. We know that based on the key scripture, “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” (Romans 6:7) 

Why would god bring us back to life, only to kill us again, for what we had done in the past? 

Thus, those resurrected must come to life with a clean slate, so to speak. The scrolls mentioned in Revelation, apparently represent God’s further requirements. 

To live forever (as originally intended from the Garden of Eden and God’s purpose), both righteous Armageddon survivors and resurrected ones will have to obey God’s commandments, including whatever new requirements God might reveal during the thousand years. This time free from imperfection, and Satan's influence as today.

Thus, individuals will be judged on the basis of what they do during Judgment Day, after learning of God’s righteous requirements.

However, we know from the scriptures, that not all will be willing to conform to God’s will just as today as indicated by Isaiah 26:10: Though the wicked one should be shown favor, he simply will not learn righteousness. In the land of straightforwardness he will act unjustly and will not see the eminence of God.” These wicked ones will be put to death permanently during Judgment Day Isaiah, 65:20.  

According to Revelation 20:5, by the end of Judgment Day, surviving humans will have “come to life” fully as perfect humans.

Judgment Day will thus see the restoration of mankind to its original perfect state, like the Garden of Eden before man sinned, and this is shown at 1 Cor 15-24-28. 

Then a final test will take place. Satan will be released from his imprisonment and allowed to try to mislead mankind one last time as pointed out in Revelation 20:3 and then 7-10.  
Those who resist him will enjoy the complete fulfillment of the Bible’s promise: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” Psalm 37:29.  

When this takes place, then we will be where God intended, in the beginning, living on a peaceful, righteous earth, free of all the problems, sickness and death we face now...

Hope this makes a little sense,,,getting late.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Thanks KMH for the explanations. Maybe it's just over my head or your explanation was too deep. Please explain what will happen to me, If God deems me to have salvation, when I die physically. Where do I go other than the ground and how or what part of me comes out of the ground? Maybe a simple explanation of your own thoughts like explaining it to a two year old.
I'm still confused about the JW's beliefs concerning my resurrection.
After you've explained my resurrection, I'd like to compare it to the resurrection of Jesus and to the resurrection of the 144,00.
But first just my resurrection.


----------



## kmh1031

Sorry for the long absence to this post…tons of “Honey Doo’s today..
To help answer your question, first  look at what the bible says and how the 9 resurrections in the bible took place, how they came back, and this will give you an idea regarding yourself.  

Some had been dead a short while, others, a few days, and their body was in decay, returning to the earth.

Those nine resurrections provide a basis for faith in Paul’s statement and they also strengthen our confidence in Jesus’ assurance at John 5:28,29:
“The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear Jesus voice and come out.” 

Thus this shows their location…and also helps us understand that they are nowhere else…but asleep in death.

The majority of those who are resurrected will come back to an earth made peaceful under God’s Kingdom which was the focal point of Jesus ministry while here on earth, the kingdom and its real benefits.  You can see for yourself some of these found at Psalm 37:10, 11, 29; Isaiah 11:6-9; 35:5, 6; 65:21-23.

In the Bible, the word “resurrection” occurs more than 40times. It is translated from a Greek word that literally means “a standing up again” and the Hebrew expression means “revival of the dead.” 

So to further answer your question, after a person dies, what is resurrected? 
It cannot be the body, which decays and returns to the dust of the ground. What is resurrected is not the same body but the same person who died. 

Thus, resurrection involves the restoration of the life pattern of the individual his personality traits, his personal history, and all the details of his identity. 

We must remember, that god, who is perfect in memory, has no problem remembering the life patterns of those who have died and a good reference to this is Isa 40:26.

Since he is the Originator of life, God can readily bring back to life the same person in a newly formed body.

Also, the Bible states that God has a yearning, an earnest longing and desire to resurrect the dead as Job said at Job 14:14, 15.  

So, if you are resurrected, the God who created all things, the universe, earth and more, can easily bring us back to life in a new body.

The teaching of the resurrection and the idea of the immortality of the human soul or spirit are, incompatible.

If something inside us survived death, what need would there be for a resurrection? 

Lazarus’ sister Martha did not believe that when her brother died, that he continued to exist in a spirit realm. 

She had faith in the resurrection. When Jesus assured her: “Your brother will rise,” Martha said at John 11:23,24: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” No evidence in the scriptures shows that she thought he was living somewhere else after his death in a spirit form.

And when brought back to life, Lazarus did not relate any experiences of an afterlife. He had been dead. “As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all,” states the Bible at Ecc 9:5 and 10.
Does this help at all?


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> If one believes Jesus died for one's sins, how is that denying Christ as their savior? Please don't quote a verse showing Jesus is God. Just quote a verse requiring a belief that Jesus is God to obtain salvation. I would like possibly two verses to show this requirement. I know there are plenty of verses that say Jesus is God, that's not what I'm looking for.



It isn't a requirement....but once one denies Christ's deity, they call him a liar. Others have pointed to many scriptures where Christ claims to be God.



drippin' rock said:


> The good church going folks I know believe JW is a cult, just like Mormons, meaning they will burn.  Really surprised that hasn't come up here yet.



Hmm...thought I did with my post below.....just did it in nicer terms. 



rjcruiser said:


> Hmm...I think the biggest issue I have is that JWs don't believe Jesus is God.
> 
> Imho, to deny this fact is to deny Christ.



I find it interesting that the JWs answering questions about their faith haven't touched this statement. 

Was Christ lying when he said he was the "I Am?"  Were the Jews wrong for assuming only God can forgive a man's sin when Christ healed the lame man in Mark 2?


----------



## kmh1031

RJ, 
I will respond to a couple of your comments, questions, and hope that I have done so to all, as this is a long thread..

You mentioned cult, which is according to the dictionary, 
a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous

Are our beliefs extreme? Different than some here, but not from a cult...as we use, read, study the bible as imperfect people, trying to determine how to worship god in spirit and truth, as the bible told us to do. 

Jesus in Matt chap 7 clearly shows that not all religions are true, or from God, so it is up to us to keep looking, seeking the truth, and just not believe what is easy, fun, or what we have always done..

We don't just sit back and believe what someone told us, or what our parents believe...as our lives are at stake. We study hours weekly, individually and as a group just to get the meaning of the scriptures.

Question, have I/we quoted the bible in almost all instances? 
We have used the scripture to defend, and answer all questions, not some man, or  personal belief. 

Jim Jones, and others who had their own views, and not of the bible or god are considered cults.

We have over 7 million members, but in many cases have over 19 million at our meetings...obviously due to the fact that many are looking outside their own religion..to continue to find the truth. 
We are one of the fastest growing religions, worldwide...

Most of the members, including myself, have come out of other religions due to the fact that they could not find the answers they were looking for at their own church, why do we grow old and die
why does god permit wickedness
what happens to us when we die
if there is a god, why does he not stop our suffering
What is our future
Are we living in the last days?

and many more....I was a Baptist, my wife a Methodist, still others Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, and more, all looking for answers....yet no religion provided them..

We have over 52,000 congregations worldwide, that teach the exact same thing, at all our meetings, regardless if it is in Atlanta, or in Australia, Africa, ...how many cults do you know that do that? O even religions?

Heck you cannot go to one denomination church here in GA, ad then go to another and find they teach much the same. 
I know, I did.....

And as far as Christ being God this is a lengthy topic, but I am ready to give a defense...yes, he is a god, but not Almighty God...
Jesus while on earth NEVER claimed to be God..ever.
Ps 83:18 shows who almighty God is..
And use an original translation of the Bible to get who that was and the name mentioned. As it was mentioned over 6.200 times in the original writings...

The Bible does not portray Jesus as being Almighty God or equal to God. On the contrary, it clearly teaches that Jesus is a god, but not Almighty God, and inferior to God. 
For example, the Bible records Jesus’ own words: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) The Bible also says: “No man has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18) Jesus cannot be God because many people did in fact see Jesus.
Jesus’ early followers did not claim that he was God. For example, the Gospel writer John said concerning the things he recorded: “These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God John 20:31.
Do we recognize Jesus as the son of God, and realize that only through him can we reach God and be saved? Yes, absolutely. Is Jesus part of our worship and teachings and example to follow? Yes most definitely.

Are we perfect? Far from it..
Are we striving hard to live up to the example Jesus set, and search for the truth rather than follow tradition, or false teachings again as Jesus warned against in Matt 7? Yes, every day.


----------



## Israel

The truth of God is not labeled, nor defined by our associations.
The foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, the Lord knows those who are his.
Till we discover there is something that seeks a group identity primarily, and then perhaps a deference to God's word somewhere after that, we simply argue one religious tradition against another.
It seems not enough to refer to Paul's criticisms "I am of Paul, I am of Apollos", for these fall on deaf ears who still prefer to identify themselves as _this flavor_ of God seeker.
No, it is not to extol a false benefit in saying "I am nameless, I am non denominational" as this is just the same folly. "_My_ church teaches"..."_we_" believe...etc etc, ad nauseum.
In the above it is stated:
Are we striving hard to live up to the example Jesus set, and search for the truth rather than follow tradition, or false teachings again as Jesus warned against in Matt 7? _Yes, every day. _

Really? One can answer for all according to the disposition of some, perhaps, and do this on the basis of nothing else than an affiliation by some created name attached to themselves? 

Ahh, but men love to have their credentials speak for them, having nothing of spirit that God confirms, hoping against hope...by the joining of themselves amongst themselves, they may show God's preference and good pleasure.
Who would answer the Lord as to their making every effort to please him...the Laodiceans? The Smyrnans? The Thyatirans? The Sardisians? 
He who searches the hearts and minds, He who tries the reins, He who brings every hidden thing to light makes clear attendances, boasts, even the gatherings together, may be for the worse, and not the better when the simple boast becomes "well, at least we do not forsake the assembling together of ourselves, as is the habit of some!"

God knows who loves him, and those who would seek to make a fair show by the reliance of claims of belonging to this _thing_, or that _thing_, abstaining from this _thing_ adhering to that_ thing_, have yet to learn Christ is all that is given to be shared, all that is given to be magnified, all that is given that the Father recognizes as _His own_.

If no one else ever does...so be it. If all say this man is a son of God, so be it. That is of less than of any consequence.

To rely upon the no_thing_ but the Lord for his revelation, trusting that if it pleases him, you too may be revealed with him in glory is more than enough. 
Of this, and these, the foundation stands sure.


----------



## gordon 2

Israel said:


> The truth of God is not labeled, nor defined by our associations.
> The foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, the Lord knows those who are his.
> Till we discover there is something that seeks a group identity primarily, and then perhaps a deference to God's word somewhere after that, we simply argue one religious tradition against another.
> It seems not enough to refer to Paul's criticisms "I am of Paul, I am of Apollos", for these fall on deaf ears who still prefer to identify themselves as _this flavor_ of God seeker.
> No, it is not to extol a false benefit in saying "I am nameless, I am non denominational" as this is just the same folly. "_My_ church teaches"..."_we_" believe...etc etc, ad nauseum.
> In the above it is stated:
> Are we striving hard to live up to the example Jesus set, and search for the truth rather than follow tradition, or false teachings again as Jesus warned against in Matt 7? _Yes, every day. _
> 
> Really? One can answer for all according to the disposition of some, perhaps, and do this on the basis of nothing else than an affiliation by some created name attached to themselves?
> 
> Ahh, but men love to have their credentials speak for them, having nothing of spirit that God confirms, hoping against hope...by the joining of themselves amongst themselves, they may show God's preference and good pleasure.
> Who would answer the Lord as to their making every effort to please him...the Laodiceans? The Smyrnans? The Thyatirans? The Sardisians?
> He who searches the hearts and minds, He who tries the reins, He who brings every hidden thing to light makes clear attendances, boasts, even the gatherings together, may be for the worse, and not the better when the simple boast becomes "well, at least we do not forsake the assembling together of ourselves, as is the habit of some!"
> 
> God knows who loves him, and those who would seek to make a fair show by the reliance of claims of belonging to this _thing_, or that _thing_, abstaining from this _thing_ adhering to that_ thing_, have yet to learn Christ is all that is given to be shared, all that is given to be magnified, all that is given that the Father recognizes as _His own_.
> 
> If no one else ever does...so be it. If all say this man is a son of God, so be it. That is of less than any consequence.
> 
> To rely upon the no_thing_ but the Lord for his revelation, trusting that if it pleases him, you too may be revealed with him in glory is more than enough.
> Of this, and these, the foundation stands sure.



I am in awe!


----------



## kmh1031

Israel, not quite sure of what you were trying to say fully, but in reference to your posts in red, regarding the use of the term “we” 

I am sure that you are aware, that one of the many signs of Jesus followers was unity…note Micah 2:12.
“In unity I shall set them, like a flock in the pen”. 
Also note 1 Cor 12:12 and 13: For just as the body is one but has many members, and all the members of that body, although many, are one body, so too is the Christ.

 For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit.
Striving to worship in truth, enables people to cooperate as harmoniously as the members of our own body, and thus if it is a group on the same path, then we can be used.
Also it is not uncommon to use the term “we” in reference to many things, we as a family, we as a business in our views and how we go to market, we as a team? If all within a group believe the same, worship the same, and strive for the same goal…”we” can be used…

So although these are my beliefs they are the same as the other millions of JW’s worldwide.

Yes and you are right, and God does recognize his own….
One example is the fact that he has a “people” here on earth…and also provides a warning for them…as a group, and not as an individual…

Revelation 18:4:  And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues."
This scripture actually has application now…


----------



## hobbs27

About salvation and my Savior, my Lord Jesus Christ..
Genesis 2:
21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22 The Lord God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. 23 The man said,


“This is now bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”

24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh



John 19:

31 Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him; 33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36 For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “Not a bone of Him shall be broken.” 37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”


Just as God put a sleep on Adam and took a rib from his side to make him a bride...Jesus gave up the ghost on the Cross and when that Roman soldier speared Him in the side blood and water ran out...that water was living water and what it produces is Christs bride! 

 It is this that my salvation has come, the blood and water that come from the side of my Lord and savior Jesus Christ while on the cross at Calvary!


----------



## hobbs27

SAVIOR!

Matthew 28: And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.


----------



## kmh1031

Yes, Hobbs
No argument there.....simple post, but very true..Clearly stated here also..

John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God,+ and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.


----------



## Artfuldodger

KMH, good job explaining our physical resurrections. I too don't see any point going to Heaven only to come back for a body. Some Christians believe we don't come back, that resurrection is only spiritual. 
These new bodies we'll have, do they contain flesh & bones or flesh & blood? I was thinking maybe the new heaven(atmosphere) and new Earth might be another planet. Just speculation, not Biblical. 
Now that you've explained my resurrection, how is it the 144,000 have souls but we don't? They went or will go to Heaven only as spirits.
I'm still stuck on my resurrection being different from the 144,000 and Jesus for that matter.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> SAVIOR!
> 
> Matthew 28: And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.



Who gave Jesus all authority? Doesn't God also give Jesus the duties of Judge? Mediator?


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> It isn't a requirement....but once one denies Christ's deity, they call him a liar. Others have pointed to many scriptures where Christ claims to be God.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm...thought I did with my post below.....just did it in nicer terms.
> 
> 
> 
> I find it interesting that the JWs answering questions about their faith haven't touched this statement.
> 
> Was Christ lying when he said he was the "I Am?"  Were the Jews wrong for assuming only God can forgive a man's sin when Christ healed the lame man in Mark 2?



I'm glad I'm not a member of organized religion. I've spent a lifetime dividing Christians, now I'm ready to unite.
I don't believe the JW's are any better at it either.

How do you feel about the salvation of Oneness believers?

I'm glad I've finally realized salvation is from Grace and the Bible was written for me but not to me. I'm really enjoying my new found freedom.


----------



## kmh1031

Regarding a few of your questions..

Again, what does the bible describe when the other 9 resurrections took place? Did anyone indicate they were different? No, they were brought back to life, here on earth as normal flesh and blood humans and returned to their families. 

Also about the new earth, it is certainly not going to be replaced with another earth as some may think. 

We can look at the prophetic vision of Revelation 21:1-4 it points to the time of “a new heaven” and “a new earth” and gives the promise that then “death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.” 

Since this promise is given, not to spirit creatures, but specifically to mankind it gives assurance that a new earthly society of humankind living under the “new heaven” will experience restoration of mind and body to fullness of health and everlasting life as earthly “children of God.”

Consider two Scriptural facts that help us reach the right conclusion. First, in the Bible the term “earth” at times refers to people, not the globe as shown by just one example, Psalm 96:1.

Second, the Bible foretold that under God’s rule, faithful humans would learn righteousness, which would spread earth wide again, look at Isaiah 26:9. 

So, the new earth then must refer to a society of people who would submit to God’s rulership and live by his righteous standards.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Who gave Jesus all authority? Doesn't God also give Jesus the duties of Judge? Mediator?



It was probably a 2 to 1 vote .. I dont know who gave the authority nor do I think its important, what is important is Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth. This is also a fulfilled prophecy, using scripture to answer scripture we turn to Daniel 7:13-14


Daniel 7:13-14

New King James Version (NKJV)



13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.


----------



## hobbs27

kmh, I see you are really struggling to explain/understand the new heaven and earth.. I'll try to help by explaining it in a simple way, if more is needed I have tons on it.

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matthew 5:17-18 NKJV) 

Do you believe that heaven and earth have not passed away yet? If you do, do you also believe that we are still under every jot and tittle of the law? Logically speaking you must believe that we are still under every jot and tittle of the law if heaven and earth have not passed away yet. 

The phrase "heavens and earth" is covenantal language. It is not referring to the physical heavens and earth. The Old Heavens and Earth was the Old Covenant and the New Heavens and Earth is the New Covenant where righteousness dwells. Christians are the New Creation and the New Heavens and Earth. Once again, the concept is spiritual/covenantal, not physical/literal.


----------



## kmh1031

No, not really struggling…not at all. 

And no not under the old law, and yes, I know it is not literal and does not apply to the physical earth…or physical heavens…and it is symbolic…for example

Peter had just referred to symbolic “heavens” human governments that are lifted up or exalted above their subjects in 2 Peter 3:10-12. 

These “heavens” have failed mankind and will pass away as clearly stated in Dan 2:44. Again, the heavens are  symbolic in the scripture. 

The “new heavens” that will replace them is God’s Kingdom made up of Jesus Christ.

The “new earth” that Peter mentioned is not a new planet. God, made the earth perfect for everlasting human life. 

So as I said in previous posts, at times, the Bible refers to “the earth” when people are meant. 

The earth that will soon be destroyed consists of people who have made themselves part of this wicked world. 

So, the new earth, is a new society of people, God’s true worshippers, who are “upright in their hearts, a few as pointed out by Psalm 125:4; 1 John 2:17.   

All laws for the “new earth” will come from the “new heavens.” 
Perhaps, I was not clear, or you may have read my previous post incorrectly.


----------



## hobbs27

kmh1031 said:


> No, not really struggling…not at all.
> 
> And no not under the old law,
> 
> All laws for the “new earth” will come from the “new heavens.”
> Perhaps, I was not clear, or you may have read my previous post incorrectly.



Let's stick with Matthew 5: 17-18. You have three options here.
1. Jesus lied
2. We are still under the old law
3. The new heaven and earth have come already

Which is it?


----------



## kmh1031

Partially, number 3. 

As Jesus cannot lie, Christ fulfilled the Law, thus, Christians are under a new law, “the law of the Christ

New heavens have taken place as Jesus has been restored as king, and ruling in the new heavens according to the "signs" he gave that would indicate this.
New earth, complete with all righteous people, adhering to God, is yet to come..

What is your belief along these lines? Scripturally of course.


----------



## Israel

kmh1031 said:


> Israel, not quite sure of what you were trying to say fully, but in reference to your posts in red, regarding the use of the term “we”
> 
> I am sure that you are aware, that one of the many signs of Jesus followers was unity…note Micah 2:12.
> “In unity I shall set them, like a flock in the pen”.
> Also note 1 Cor 12:12 and 13: For just as the body is one but has many members, and all the members of that body, although many, are one body, so too is the Christ.
> 
> For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit.
> Striving to worship in truth, enables people to cooperate as harmoniously as the members of our own body, and thus if it is a group on the same path, then we can be used.
> Also it is not uncommon to use the term “we” in reference to many things, we as a family, we as a business in our views and how we go to market, we as a team? If all within a group believe the same, worship the same, and strive for the same goal…”we” can be used…
> 
> So although these are my beliefs they are the same as the other millions of JW’s worldwide.
> 
> Yes and you are right, and God does recognize his own….
> One example is the fact that he has a “people” here on earth…and also provides a warning for them…as a group, and not as an individual…
> 
> Revelation 18:4:  And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues."
> This scripture actually has application now…



The one who has ears to hear surely knows he is not the only one hearing. But even if he were, it would make no difference. Who hears, is the Lord's work, alone. And that, by his word.
That men work from the outside, hoping their constructs, labels, adornments (or lack thereof), proper scriptural references and arguments will support the eternal weight of glory they eagerly seek to make known by such structures, find themselves in form, not reality.
The terrible imposition of framework without spirit, a form of light without revelation, a parade of works without Him who does all things well, may indeed conscript the one who has succumbed to displays of his own reason.

But not so the disciple seared by the spirit of God. The altar from which he eats is not his own, the unity he seeks is not his own, the life he lives is not his own.
He can no more, would no more, delightfully forbids himself from saying anymore "this is the place, and these are the people".
The unity of spirit is bequeathed him, amongst the many he will discover not of the same mind, not of the same agreements, not of the same temperaments and dispositions, but it is precisely here he may discover it may be maintained in faith and truth as he lays down his own vanity of imagination that would tell him "I am the place and the people".

The ever present, and very present instruction to "come out of her, my people" is both universal, and personal.
That coming out, beyond the gate of the religious city, bearing both reproach and scorn is the disciple's treasure.
It is here, naked and helpless with nothing to offer, not even, and especially, of his own righteousness, he finds himself both received and heartily embraced.
His only hope is mercy, his only plea a single name, (not his own) his only trust is in resurrection...and it is here he finds them all.
That he finds others so occupied is all too wonderful, too.


----------



## Artfuldodger

This is getting interesting in a good way. Mainly because Hobbs and kmh have similar beliefs about the Kingdom. I do think the Preterist view explains a lot of loose ends others can't explain. 
The "Kingdom" holds all of the answers as this is what Jesus mostly taught. Thy Kingdom come on earth as in heaven. 
Lots of interesting thoughts, prayer is needed.


----------



## hobbs27

kmh1031 said:


> Partially, number 3.


   <--- this represents the struggle I was referring to. Matthew 5:17-18 are very clear verses, and if we believe Christ cannot lie then we must believe that number 3 in its entirety is the only choice. 





> What is your belief along these lines? Scripturally of course.



Here's some scripture and thoughts along with a link to more..

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
It would seem appropriate in light of the above passage to find another passage that would seem to pinpoint the timing of this passing of heaven and earth. How do we interpret Matthew 5:17,18 if we believe the Old Covenant has passed away? What is the heaven and earth? 
Matthew 5:17-18  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
First, as with all passages, we should try to use some sort of a consistent hermeneutic. One of the questions that always comes to mind when reading such an obviously leading statement is, what would they (first-century observers) have thought? I.e. first, were they familiar with this type of language? 
Well, obviously they were familiar with the law, but what about the phrase "heaven and earth?" Here are just a few important observations: 

Consider how the law is described here and its implications upon those underneath its curse: 

Deuteronomy 8:19 And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.
The command of not worshiping other gods was a command that God would use "against them." 
Again, this same idolatry is mentioned with similar language: 

Deuteronomy 31:18-19  And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. {19} Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.
The song would be a "witness...against the children of Israel." 
Likewise here: 

Deuteronomy 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware. With even more clarity, we see this "witness against" them: 
Deuteronomy 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
In the above passage it is far more evident that that which is a witness against them is that which is in the ark of the covenant-namely the two tables of stone or the ministration of death. Of course we remember this ministration of death as that which was in the process of fading at the time of the writing of the 2 epistle to the Corinthians. It was contrasted with the excelling glory of the New Covenant: 
2 Corinthians 3:11 For if that which is passing away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
So we see that the ministration of death was in the process of passing away. This of course was consummated at the destruction of the Jewish Temple in ad 70. 
But returning to our observation, it was the law that was a witness against the Israelites. It was a witness against them. They could not escape this witness regardless of their efforts. It showed them guilty before God. It was His witness against them. 

Specifically, the command to abstain from idolatry was the "witness against" them. Consider this passage: 

Deuteronomy 4:25-26  When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger: {26} I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
Notice the witness against them-heaven and earth. The law was their heaven and earth. It was their world and surroundings. The passage says that heaven and earth would be there as a witness against them..."that ye shall soon utterly perish..." 
This reminds us of a previous passage: 

Deuteronomy 8:19 And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.
How did God testify against them? With the heaven and earth of the law: 
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
What records against them? Certainly not the physical heavens and earth, but rather the law: 
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Through the law, all of their transgressions were recorded against them. 
Finally, the most convincing passage of all includes everything we have just mentioned: 

Deuteronomy 31:26-28 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it (the law) may be there for a witness against thee. 27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? 28 Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.
With this in mind, I think we could answer the problem in Matthew 5: 
Matthew 5:17-18  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Any Israelites who were remotely familiar with the law were probably well aware of the fact that heaven and earth was synonymous with the law or the Old Covenant. 
The big question is, when did heaven and earth pass, or has it passed at all. Hebrews 12 gives some excellent insight concerning this issue: 

(Hebrews 12:18-27 KJV) For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, {19} And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: {20} (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: {21} And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake {22} But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, {23} To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, {24} And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. {25} See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: {26} Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. {27} And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Notice the words heaven and earth. Also notice the use of the present tense to describe what was taking place at this time: 
"... And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are being shaken (OC), as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken (NC) may remain."
Of course this should bring to mind Hebrews 8: 
(Hebrews 8:10-13 KJV) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: {11} And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. {12} For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. {13} In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
We see that the Old Covenant that was decaying (present tense) and waxing old (present tense) was ready to vanish away. With the destruction of their Temple (the centerpiece of the Jewish Old Covenant system), the Old Covenant had completely waxed old and vanished away. The Heaven and Earth had passed away. This would explain Isaiah 51, a passage that compares the temporal quality of the law versus the eternal quality of the New Covenant salvation: 
Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Again, compare with: 
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Even Psalms speaks of this: 
Psalms 102:25-26  Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. {26} They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
Some may ask whether this affects Revelation 21: 
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Also, 2 Peter 3 may be considered: 
2 Peter 3:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. {11} Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, {12} Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? {13} Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
As we have already proved, heaven and earth refers to the Old Covenant and the conscience underneath that Old Covenant. As far as the passage in Peter is concerned, the term "works" is clearly referring to those works done underneath the OC law by which men attempted to justify themselves. Those works, however, that were done in faith would not be burned up: 
1 Corinthians 3:9-15 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. {10} According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. {11} For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. {12} Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; {13} Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. {14} If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. {15} If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
The term "elements" (stoicheion) is also referring to those principles or rudiments under the law. It is used seven times in the New Testament and each time it is used it refers to those principles of the OC law: 
Galatians 4:1-10 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; {2} But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. {3} Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements (stoicheion) of the world: {4} But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, {5} To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. {6} And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. {7} Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. {8} Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. {9} But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements (stoicheion), whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? {10} Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 
Colossians 2:8-22 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, and not after Christ. {9} For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. {10} And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: {11} In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: {12} Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. {13} And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; {14} Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (law) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; {15} And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. {16} Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days (law): {17} Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. {18} Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, {19} And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. {20} Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, {21} (Touch not; taste not; handle not; {22} Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men (law)?

Hebrews, directed to Israelites, says: 
Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Now, concerning oracles we read: 
Romans 3:1-2 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? {2} Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Therefore, the two times the word is used in 2 Peter would seem to be referring to the OC system and order. Also, the fact that Peter tells his audience to look for the coming day of God clearly implies that they were expecting an imminent dissolution of the OC order. 


http://eschatology.com/heavenearthsea.html


----------



## hobbs27

It wouldnt be fair to not mention the destruction of the temple in 70 ad as the judgement of Israel and the end of the old covenant.

http://www.bible.ca/pre-flavius-josephus-70AD-Mt24-fulfilled.htm


----------



## kmh1031

Hobbs,
A lot to read, and digest, and that will have to be tomorrow...
but I will read to get a better understanding of your views.

"The new heaven and earth have come already"

Yes, the new heavens have, and are as Jesus is in power of the kingdom. 
Yet, the new earth is yet to come. How do we know that?

Well the conditions that the kingdom promised in Rev 21 3 and 4, Ps 37 have yet to take place. 
Jesus kingdom, putting an end to earthly kingdoms as mentioned in Dan 2:44 has yet to take place, but has to be soon based on world conditions we see as none of the benefits that the kingdom and Jesus rule are evident on earth today, but will be in the future.

However it cannot be far off based on the hint we get from the scriptures, Luke 21, 2 Tim 3:1-5 shows we are living late in the last days.


----------



## Israel

Some see a chicken from afar flapping its wings and running wildly, and remark, "that sure is one lively chicken".
Others, perhaps, on closer inspection learn that flurry of activity is precisely because its head has been removed, and have no issue uttering what they know is already true, "that chicken is dead".
Don't watch the chicken, find out where dinner is being served.


----------



## Artfuldodger

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matthew 5:17-18 NKJV) 

I wish I knew enough about this to even ask questions. I have heard Christians say Jesus fulfilled all on the cross. Hopefully others will chime in. If Heaven & Earth passing is just covenant talk and not literal, why ask about a literal Heaven & Earth Passing?
If it's spiritual and covental, then it has nothing to do with an actual physical passing. 
We definitely aren't under the law, so the new Heaven & Earth(New Covenant) is in affect.
I don't really see the importance of a 1914 starting point of Jesus' Heavenly rule or a 70AD starting point of an earthly Kingdom.
We've already established the new heaven & earth isn't literal.
If we are saved by God's grace, what really is the importance of any of this? It's like the Trinity. Many different beliefs that don't really matter when it comes to God's grace and the sacrifice Jesus made. 

From Paul: And such were some of you.
Knowing this:
that the law is not made for a righteous man,
but for the lawless and disobedient,

I guess it's fun and interesting trying to figure it all out but if you believe your salvation rest on anything other than believing that Jesus died for your sins, you are mistaken. You are still saved, but it's not a part of your salvation. It's just a part of trying to figure it all out. 
Predestination, freewill, soul sleep, He11, Heaven, works, repentance, baptism, prayer, are not part of your salvation. 
You can study forever and it won't save you. It is fun though isn't it. I've got it figured out in two words: Jesus saves.
Now what comes with that? Obedience to God, Loving others, helping others, forgiving others, prayer, worship, thanksgiving, holiness, and on and on.
OK back to the fun and interesting discussion.


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> 17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matthew 5:17-18 NKJV)
> 
> I wish I knew enough about this to even ask questions. I have heard Christians say Jesus fulfilled all on the cross. Hopefully others will chime in. If Heaven & Earth passing is just covenant talk and not literal, why ask about a literal Heaven & Earth Passing?
> If it's spiritual and covental, then it has nothing to do with an actual physical passing.
> We definitely aren't under the law, so the new Heaven & Earth(New Covenant) is in affect.
> I don't really see the importance of a 1914 starting point of Jesus' Heavenly rule or a 70AD starting point of an earthly Kingdom.
> We've already established the new heaven & earth isn't literal.
> If we are saved by God's grace, what really is the importance of any of this? It's like the Trinity. Many different beliefs that don't really matter when it comes to God's grace and the sacrifice Jesus made.
> 
> From Paul: And such were some of you.
> Knowing this:
> that the law is not made for a righteous man,
> but for the lawless and disobedient,
> 
> I guess it's fun and interesting trying to figure it all out but if you believe your salvation rest on anything other than believing that Jesus died for your sins, you are mistaken. You are still saved, but it's not a part of your salvation. It's just a part of trying to figure it all out.
> Predestination, freewill, soul sleep, He11, Heaven, works, repentance, baptism, prayer, are not part of your salvation.
> You can study forever and it won't save you. It is fun though isn't it. I've got it figured out in two words: Jesus saves.
> Now what comes with that? Obedience to God, Loving others, helping others, forgiving others, prayer, worship, thanksgiving, holiness, and on and on.
> OK back to the fun and interesting discussion.



Good points. So can I go on to say what remains then is the way we act and behave in the here and now. Or the how we act and behave, (behavior). ---Or how we walk in faith and order our lives according to the law of liberty?

It seems to me there are two blanket ways to those who claim the Way: To engage in the world fully or to withdraw from it. That one man sees fit to withdraw and another to engage I have no problem with. However "christian" communities that "force" people to withdraw from the world or be ostracized from the body of Christ or have a diet to follow on how to engage the world or be ostracized form the body of Christ, I have a problem with.

My problem is that if Christ came to free captives and I am to seek to do likewise-- why should my community make captives the saints or even a mean sinner like me? I have to ask, is it Christ or is it another?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I guess it's fun and interesting trying to figure it all out but if you believe your salvation rest on anything other than believing that Jesus died for your sins, you are mistaken. You are still saved, but it's not a part of your salvation. It's just a part of trying to figure it all out.
> Predestination, freewill, soul sleep, He11, Heaven, works, repentance, baptism, prayer, are not part of your salvation.



Art, Jesus is going to remain drawing and saving people. You know I've never said eschatology has anything to do with salvation and never will. 

 What it does have to do with is the strengthening of Gods kingdom and the happiness of the little children (as John refers to us). In one of my FB groups on partial preterism, there's two men and a woman talking about the negative effects on their lives that dispensationalism caused. Two of the guys are 40 year old and decided to not marry because there was no hope for the future and the woman now past child bearing age decided to not bring children into  world that was doomed

 Anything that takes away the happiness and joy of salvation is of evil spirits and I will say here, that dispensationalism is of evil & not good.

 I may be wrong but I think the church across many denominations is poised and ready for another great reformation, and purging premellinialism dispensationalism out of it will be a great start. It has no scriptural basis to it anyways.


----------



## Israel

gordon 2 said:


> Good points. So can I go on to say what remains then is the way we act and behave in the here and now. Or the how we act and behave, (behavior). ---Or how we walk in faith and order our lives according to the law of liberty?
> 
> It seems to me their are two blanket ways to those who claim the Way: To engage in the world fully or to withdraw from it. That one man sees fit to withdraw and another to engage I have no problem with. However "christian" communities that "force" people to withdraw from the world or be ostracized from the body of Christ or have a diet to follow on how to engage the world or be ostracized form the body of Christ, I have a problem with.
> 
> My problem is that if Christ came to free captives and I am to seek to do likewise-- why should my community make captives the saints or even a mean sinner like me? I have to ask, is it Christ or is it another?


amen...liberty is sometimes a terror to the soul when it sits between, for unschooled it brings indulgences that boomerang and wound, yet it will not be denied...and the discovery of being released from all worldly constraints and motive of display may be taken advantage of by another to display another, and yet these things of making a show of liberty even become a burden, but yet again, liberty will not be denied.
It drags us through the brambles to discover the one who freely waits to bind all our wounds, patiently.
And perhaps, we may learn and hear "you are now free to go and do likewise..."

And we may learn to stand fast in the liberty with which Christ has made us free. Waiting for the wounded. Or as another loves to say...to show justice, and mercy.


----------



## hobbs27

kmh1031 said:


> However it cannot be far off based on the hint we get from the scriptures, Luke 21, 2 Tim 3:1-5 shows we are living late in the last days.



Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are fulfilled. We know this because Jesus told His disciples Matthew 24:34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 

 I dont understand why you keep putting us in the Gospels. No doubt there are great lessons and teachings there that we gain from, but we were'nt there and Jesus didn't come for us as He made clear ;
Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

His ministry in the Gospels was to benefit the misled Jew that a new covenant ie. kingdom was coming soon. It did come soon, and the Gentile ie. us benefit from this Gospel, salvation came first to the Jew ( day of Pentacost)and later to the Gentile.

2Timothy 3:1-5 does not show we live in the last days, it shows that they lived in the last days. We live in the days of Christs kingdom that lasts forever and ever Amen!


----------



## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Good points. So can I go on to say what remains then is the way we act and behave in the here and now. Or the how we act and behave, (behavior). ---Or how we walk in faith and order our lives according to the law of liberty?
> 
> It seems to me there are two blanket ways to those who claim the Way: To engage in the world fully or to withdraw from it. That one man sees fit to withdraw and another to engage I have no problem with. However "christian" communities that "force" people to withdraw from the world or be ostracized from the body of Christ or have a diet to follow on how to engage the world or be ostracized form the body of Christ, I have a problem with.
> 
> My problem is that if Christ came to free captives and I am to seek to do likewise-- why should my community make captives the saints or even a mean sinner like me? I have to ask, is it Christ or is it another?



I was just thinking about the "worldly, not worldly" ideals while dozing off to sleep last night. I don't won't to separate myself from the world. I want to enjoy the world. JW's as do other Churches do preach against being worldly although they attend public school. They still live in our society.
We must remain holy and not do ungodly world things. This doesn't mean we can't vote or join the military. We are of this world until we are in God's Kingdom.

Now on acting & behaving, we should all strive to be like Jesus. We all have weaknesses. Paul listed some and said, an such were some of you. We were all lost but are now found. Paul could have used any list of sins. Make up your own  list and say, and such were you. We are quick to add sexual sins, adultery, murder to other's list when our own list might include lust or hatred, both being equal to adultery or murder.
I'm just glad Paul said, and such were some of you. This was Paul's way of saying "but." 
I now know what that "but" is. Paul went on to say,  but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

I'm thankful for all of those buts because my list of sins is way longer than Paul's list. I can only assume this is why I needed Jesus in the first place.

Paul also said, Three things will last forever--faith, hope, and love--and the greatest of these is love.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Anything that takes away the happiness and joy of salvation is of evil spirits and I will say here, that dispensationalism is of evil & not good.
> 
> I may be wrong but I think the church across many denominations is poised and ready for another great reformation, and purging premellinialism dispensationalism out of it will be a great start. It has no scriptural basis to it anyways.



I've always thought of Preterism being somewhat  like Dispensationalism. This is an interesting discussion for you:


There is a strange link between partial preterism and pre-trib dispensationalism. (The 'left behind' idea of the rapture.) Now these two systems are actually enemies and the advocates will spend time attacking each other.

However...

(1) In both cases, they have a "two comings" system. They split up the 2nd Coming material into different events. With partial preterism they split it between AD70 and the 2nd Coming. With dispensationalism they split it between the rapture and the 2nd Coming.

(2) In both cases, the systems appear to be relatively modern inventions.

(3) They both deny that the same event is being spoken of in 1 Thess. 4 and Matt. 24:30-31.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7788991/


----------



## kmh1031

Hobbs, just a little more this morning, then I have to go, but be back later...When Bible prophecy speaks of “this generation,” it is necessary to consider the context to determine what generation is meant. 

Jesus Christ, when denouncing the Jewish religious leaders, concluded by saying: “Truly I say to you, All these things will come upon this generation.” 
And yes, history recounts that about 37 years later (in 70 C.E.) that contemporary generation personally experienced the destruction of Jerusalem, as foretold.

However, later that same day, Jesus again used practically the same words, saying: “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” 

In this instance, Jesus was answering a question regarding the desolation of Jerusalem and its temple as well as regarding the sign of his presence and of the conclusion of the system of things based on the questions his apostles asked.

So his comment about “this generation” logically had an application down to 70 C.E. Yet, he was also using the word “generation” with reference to humans whose lives would in some way be associated with the foretold events during his presence.

Why do we draw that conclusion?  By carefully considering the context, as recorded in Matt 24:32 and 33where Jesus said: “Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.” You can compare Mark 13:28-30 and Luke 21:30-32.

 “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.”

Jesus said that it was his disciples, soon to be anointed with holy spirit, who should be able to draw certain conclusions when they saw “all these things” occur. 

So Jesus must have been referring to his disciples when he made the statement: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.”

Unlike unbelievers, Jesus’ disciples would not only see the sign but also understand its significance. They would “learn” from the features of that sign and “know” their true meaning. They would fully appreciate that “he is near at the doors.” 

While it is true that both unbelieving Jews and faithful anointed Christians saw a limited fulfillment of Jesus’ words in the first century, only his anointed followers back then could learn from these events could understand the true meaning of what they saw.

Some today, with different views, beliefs, have felt that there has been no “striking observableness” with regard to the sign of Jesus’ presence. 

Many reason that everything is continuing on as it did in the past as evidenced by 2 Peter 3:4.  On the other hand, Christ’s faithful and those that recognize the signs, and full meaning that it extends to our day and yet to see the full fulfillment of the sign, “not pass away “until all these things occur”.

Other Bible prophecies make it evident that Christ’s presence refers to an extended period of time and not merely to his coming to destroy the wicked. 

The book of Revelation portrays Jesus as riding on a white horse and being given a crown. After being crowned as King in Jesus is pictured as going “forth conquering and to complete his conquest.” The account then shows that he is followed by riders seated on different-colored horses. 
These prophetically represent war, food shortages, and pestilence, all of which have occurred over the extended period of time that is referred to as “the last days.” We are seeing the fulfillment of this prophecy in our lifetime.

Our understanding of the meaning of Christ’s presence, generation, helps us to intensify our feelings of urgency. We know that Jesus is already present and has been reigning invisibly as King in heaven. 
Soon he will come to destroy the wicked and bring about vast changes to this entire globe brought forth by the kingdom.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I've always thought of Preterism being somewhat  like Dispensationalism. This is an interesting discussion for you:
> 
> 
> There is a strange link between partial preterism and pre-trib dispensationalism. (The 'left behind' idea of the rapture.) Now these two systems are actually enemies and the advocates will spend time attacking each other.
> 
> However...
> 
> (1) In both cases, they have a "two comings" system. They split up the 2nd Coming material into different events. With partial preterism they split it between AD70 and the 2nd Coming. With dispensationalism they split it between the rapture and the 2nd Coming.
> 
> (2) In both cases, the systems appear to be relatively modern inventions.
> 
> (3) They both deny that the same event is being spoken of in 1 Thess. 4 and Matt. 24:30-31.
> 
> http://www.christianforums.com/t7788991/



That is an interesting conversation and I appreciate the link. I see my own journey in some of the folks responding there. It is very hard to shake traditions that have been taught to you.

 Most partial preterist are that because they cant deny the plain text of Matthew 24 and they believe the bible is inerrant as I do. Where they choke up so to speak is admitting all of Matthew 24 is fulfilled and all of Revelation especially Ch. 20 is fulfilled. I was this way myself up to very recent. I didnt want to be considered an heretic, but the scripture was so clear and the spirit kept nudging me more and more toward consistent preterism.

 As for the connection of dispensationalism and preterism...the person has more history to read. Clement of Alexandria would have been considered a partial preterist, along with many reformers. Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Matthew Henry.


----------



## hobbs27

kmh1031 said:


> Hobbs, just a little more this morning, then I have to go, but be back later...When Bible prophecy speaks of “this generation,” it is necessary to consider the context to determine what generation is meant.
> 
> Jesus Christ, when denouncing the Jewish religious leaders, concluded by saying: “Truly I say to you, All these things will come upon this generation.”
> And yes, history recounts that about 37 years later (in 70 C.E.) that contemporary generation personally experienced the destruction of Jerusalem, as foretold.
> 
> However, later that same day, Jesus again used practically the same words, saying: “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.”
> 
> In this instance, Jesus was answering a question regarding the desolation of Jerusalem and its temple as well as regarding the sign of his presence and of the conclusion of the system of things based on the questions his apostles asked.
> 
> So his comment about “this generation” logically had an application down to 70 C.E. Yet, he was also using the word “generation” with reference to humans whose lives would in some way be associated with the foretold events during his presence.
> 
> Why do we draw that conclusion?  By carefully considering the context, as recorded in Matt 24:32 and 33where Jesus said: “Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.” You can compare Mark 13:28-30 and Luke 21:30-32.
> 
> “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.”
> 
> Jesus said that it was his disciples, soon to be anointed with holy spirit, who should be able to draw certain conclusions when they saw “all these things” occur.
> 
> So Jesus must have been referring to his disciples when he made the statement: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.”
> 
> Unlike unbelievers, Jesus’ disciples would not only see the sign but also understand its significance. They would “learn” from the features of that sign and “know” their true meaning. They would fully appreciate that “he is near at the doors.”
> 
> While it is true that both unbelieving Jews and faithful anointed Christians saw a limited fulfillment of Jesus’ words in the first century, only his anointed followers back then could learn from these events could understand the true meaning of what they saw.
> 
> Some today, with different views, beliefs, have felt that there has been no “striking observableness” with regard to the sign of Jesus’ presence.
> 
> Many reason that everything is continuing on as it did in the past as evidenced by 2 Peter 3:4.  On the other hand, Christ’s faithful and those that recognize the signs, and full meaning that it extends to our day and yet to see the full fulfillment of the sign, “not pass away “until all these things occur”.
> 
> Other Bible prophecies make it evident that Christ’s presence refers to an extended period of time and not merely to his coming to destroy the wicked.
> 
> The book of Revelation portrays Jesus as riding on a white horse and being given a crown. After being crowned as King in Jesus is pictured as going “forth conquering and to complete his conquest.” The account then shows that he is followed by riders seated on different-colored horses.
> These prophetically represent war, food shortages, and pestilence, all of which have occurred over the extended period of time that is referred to as “the last days.” We are seeing the fulfillment of this prophecy in our lifetime.
> 
> Our understanding of the meaning of Christ’s presence, generation, helps us to intensify our feelings of urgency. We know that Jesus is already present and has been reigning invisibly as King in heaven.
> Soon he will come to destroy the wicked and bring about vast changes to this entire globe brought forth by the kingdom.



Maybe you should erase all preconceived ideas in your mind and re-read your post. You are trying to point out a difference in " this generation" in one verse compared to another. There is no difference. " This Generation means This Generation!  Also from earlier..

_Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are fulfilled. We know this because Jesus told His disciples Matthew 24:34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 

I dont understand why you keep putting us in the Gospels. No doubt there are great lessons and teachings there that we gain from, but we were'nt there and Jesus didn't come for us as He made clear ;
Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

His ministry in the Gospels was to benefit the misled Jew that a new covenant ie. kingdom was coming soon. It did come soon, and the Gentile ie. us benefit from this Gospel, salvation came first to the Jew ( day of Pentacost)and later to the Gentile.

2Timothy 3:1-5 does not show we live in the last days, it shows that they lived in the last days. We live in the days of Christs kingdom that lasts forever and ever Amen! _


Ephesians 3:21



21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


----------



## M80

MoonPie said:


> Afd, Here are a few Scriptures that encourage me:
> 
> Psalm 37:29 The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.
> Matthew 6:10 Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.
> Psalm 37:9 For evil men will be done away with, But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth.
> Proverbs 2:21 For only the upright will reside in the earth, And the blameless will remain in it.
> Matthew 5:5 Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.
> 
> This page can answer a lot of questions. http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/



My 3rd and final time to request an answer to what happen to the evil men in psalm's 37


----------



## MoonPie

Some,  putting togeather a bit of  a crossword puzzle see the full puzzle as revealed.  Others say "I believe" who have never read or studied the entire Bible. Some overlook the things that do not fit. Then others ask where does God come from? Some think it ridiculous to ask. Some have never read Habakukuk 3:3 "God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran".  Others overlook this knowing God is eternal. Some see Jesus as God. And some see him as the Son of God. Isreal's illustration below, and below that, some are looking for where dinner is being served.



Israel said:


> Some see a chicken from afar flapping its wings and running wildly, and remark, "that sure is one lively chicken".
> Others, perhaps, on closer inspection learn that flurry of activity is precisely because its head has been removed, and have no issue uttering what they know is already true, "that chicken is dead".
> Don't watch the chicken, find out where dinner is being served.


Some wonder. Is God "the firstborn of creation", the "only begotten-Son". Ohters wonder where God was during the days from Jesus death to his ressurection. Some think it a sin to wonder. The sin is NOT to wonder. The sin is just going along with the crowd and overlooking them. Some slave for Jesus God, and some for Jesus the Son of God. Who's watching the chicken? Who's finding out where the dinner is served?

If you believe in God, take to heart the counsel at Romans 12:2: “Do not act like the sinful people of the world. Let God change your life. First of all, let Him give you a new mind. Then you will know what God wants you to do. And the things you do will be good and pleasing and perfect.” — New Life Version.

For God to “give you a new mind,” you have to learn what He thinks and what He wants you to do. That information can be found in His Word, the Bible. Read it daily and study it. When we let God touch our lives, we become a better person. Then we can touch the lives of others. But it starts with being honest with ourselves and being determined to make needed changes. Many people who have touched the lives of others have had to commit to doing more than following the crowd.

The way we are taught by God is not always by reading or studying alone. Sometimes truth comes knocking at your door.


----------



## kmh1031

Mwilliams80

Simply put, the wicked, or evil one will be destroyed. How do we know that?
God did not fail to act in times past, as we have the examples of the Flood, Sodom, and even when Moses came down off of Mt Sinai when thousands were destroyed because they were holding a “celebration”,  but it was basically idol worship. 

2 Peter 2:9 and 10 shows that that will be in the near future:
"So, then, God knows how to rescue people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people to be destroyed on the day of judgment, 10 especially those who seek to defile the flesh of others and who despise authority".

Our knowing that God will not tolerate wickedness forever gives us a sound hope for the future. 
God has promised to remove those who persist in evil acts, so that “the meek ones” can enjoy eternal life on earth as he originally intended as again evidenced by the scriptures noted Psalm 37:10, 11, 29.

10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more;
You will look at where they were,
And they will not be there.
11 But the meek will possess the earth,
And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace
29 The righteous will possess the earth,
And they will live forever on it.


----------



## Israel

I know little to nothing of the artist known as "Prince" except he made a movie, was very popular and I have danced with my wife to his song "Purple Rain", on more than one occasion. But when I came across this several years ago, and listened to the words, I was blessed. 
Being somewhat taken aback, I enquired as to his acknowledgement of the Lord and was told he had studied with some Jehovah's Witnesses. I pray he continue in the good confession.




"Everlasting Now"...indeed.


----------



## drippin' rock

Man you are some long winded folks. Let's get to the punch line. Somebody is right and somebody is wrong. Who is it?  JW's or mainline Christians?


----------



## Artfuldodger

drippin' rock said:


> Man you are some long winded folks. Let's get to the punch line. Somebody is right and somebody is wrong. Who is it?  JW's or mainline Christians?



We might have to check with the Freemasons!


----------



## kmh1031

Drippn Rock,

That my friend is best answered by you, doing your own research, and study, and not necessarily by what we post here entirely..!


----------



## Artfuldodger

drippin' rock said:


> Man you are some long winded folks. Let's get to the punch line. Somebody is right and somebody is wrong. Who is it?  JW's or mainline Christians?



I would have to agree with kmh. There is no such thing as mainline Christians. Too many varying beliefs from Methodist to Catholics. From freewill to predestination, from grace salvation to lordship salvation.
The Christians who have it right are the ones who believe Christ died for their sins. 
I see the JW's as just another denomination. The same as the Mormons, Catholics, Protestants, Adventists,etc.
They do explain everything using the Bible. That's more than some people do. 
Do you believe that following Jesus is the only way to achieve salvation? That is of the utmost importance.


----------



## M80

kmh1031 said:


> Mwilliams80
> 
> Simply put, the wicked, or evil one will be destroyed. How do we know that?
> God did not fail to act in times past, as we have the examples of the Flood, Sodom, and even when Moses came down off of Mt Sinai when thousands were destroyed because they were holding a “celebration”,  but it was basically idol worship.
> 
> 2 Peter 2:9 and 10 shows that that will be in the near future:
> "So, then, God knows how to rescue people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people to be destroyed on the day of judgment, 10 especially those who seek to defile the flesh of others and who despise authority".
> 
> Our knowing that God will not tolerate wickedness forever gives us a sound hope for the future.
> God has promised to remove those who persist in evil acts, so that “the meek ones” can enjoy eternal life on earth as he originally intended as again evidenced by the scriptures noted Psalm 37:10, 11, 29.
> 
> 10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more;
> You will look at where they were,
> And they will not be there.
> 11 But the meek will possess the earth,
> And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace
> 29 The righteous will possess the earth,
> And they will live forever on it.



Read revelation 20 vrs 10-15 (KJV)

Is your name written in the book of life


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I see the JW's as just another denomination. The same as the Mormons, Catholics, Protestants, Adventists,etc.
> They do explain everything using the Bible. That's more than some people do.
> Do you believe that following Jesus is the only way to achieve salvation? That is of the utmost importance.



Maybe Im wrong in general here, but my JW friend doesnt like being called a Christian. He's  a JW and Im a Christian.

He abhors the cross and demands that Christ was crucified on a stake, he also denies Christ as diety. I was kind of shocked to see khm admit Christ is a god, but upset at the same time he didnt recognize Him as God the Lord and Savior. 

 My main complaint with the watch tower organization, other than doctrine is the way they bound their members and dont allow them the freedom to think for themselves. The scriptures and verses we have spoken of here prove that Matthew 24 is fulfilled because Jesus said so, but this wont be admitted by them. When I've shown my JW friend verses like this in the past he would say ," let me talk with my elders about this." Usally that would end the discussion.

 I also have little respect for an organization that rewrites the bible just to support their beliefs. Thats what the Watch Tower organization does, They started out on the King James version, went to the American Standard, and finally had to write their own version.

 Twice they have predicted the end of the world with dates that have come and gone.. both times their membership suffered tremendously..I mean imagine what those poor souls went through that really fell for their lies. I wish each and every member could get to know Christ for the awesome Savior He is and could enjoy the liberty that comes with being in Christ and He in them. Being a Christian is better than anything this world has to offer.


----------



## Israel

drippin' rock said:


> Man you are some long winded folks. Let's get to the punch line. Somebody is right and somebody is wrong. Who is it?  JW's or mainline Christians?



LOL...who gets to answer?
Are those the only two allowed to play?
I'll take Eschatology for 500$ Alex.
Oooops, time to go to commercial, please enjoy the music till we return


----------



## MoonPie

MoonPie said:


> Some,  putting togeather a bit of  a crossword puzzle see the full puzzle as revealed.  Others say "I believe" who have never read or studied the entire Bible. Some overlook the things that do not fit. Then others ask where does God come from? Some think it ridiculous to ask. Some have never read Habakukuk 3:3 "God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran".  Others overlook this knowing God is eternal. Some see Jesus as God. And some see him as the Son of God. Isreal's illustration below, and below that, some are looking for where dinner is being served.
> 
> 
> Some wonder. Is God "the firstborn of creation", the "only begotten-Son". Others wonder where God was during the days from Jesus death to his ressurection. Some think it a sin to wonder. The sin is NOT to wonder. The sin is just going along with the crowd and overlooking them. Some slave for Jesus God, and some for Jesus the Son of God. Who's watching the chicken? Who's finding out where the dinner is served?
> 
> If you believe in God, take to heart the counsel at Romans 12:2: “Do not act like the sinful people of the world. Let God change your life. First of all, let Him give you a new mind. Then you will know what God wants you to do. And the things you do will be good and pleasing and perfect.” — New Life Version.
> 
> For God to “give you a new mind,” you have to learn what He thinks and what He wants you to do. That information can be found in His Word, the Bible. Read it daily and study it. When we let God touch our lives, we become a better person. Then we can touch the lives of others. But it starts with being honest with ourselves and being determined to make needed changes. Many people who have touched the lives of others have had to commit to doing more than following the crowd.
> 
> The way we are taught by God is not always by reading or studying alone. Sometimes truth comes knocking at your door.





hobbs27 said:


> Maybe Im wrong in general here, but my JW friend doesnt like being called a Christian. He's  a JW and Im a Christian.


Some slave for the Master Jesus Christ and make desciples. Others think the end is to acquire head knowledge and to be judges. And judge those working for the Master. And then there are those know who rules the world. Know who sucks us is into endless debates of show nothing more than pride on a computer screen. For me and my house we will slave for our Master and leave the judgements to y'all.


----------



## hobbs27

Some realize it is God that adds to the church, that it is God that draws, and God that saves.


----------



## Israel

The making of disciples is a curious endeavor. We are told it is something we are to be about, yet not really told specifically how.

"Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
Is that what he commanded the "them"? Or the us? Must I trust that everything Jesus told the disciples with him at that time is recorded...for me?
We are sometimes like men watching a movie, we see what is presented, never asking "does the hero pick his nose while sitting on the john?" It never even enters our minds.
Now, some may believe I am questioning the completeness of the Bible, which I am am not. What I am questioning is our predisposition to pick and choose amongst all that is presented, make many efforts to fulfill "one part, or some parts", exalt ourselves by saying "I" do this...or "we" do this...and therefore "I" am doing..."we" are doing the will of God.
On what shall we stand?
Shall we say "I' (we) go door to door".
Or, "I pay tithes"
Or, "I pray without ceasing"
Or, "I rejoice in the Lord always"
Or, "I command the rich of this world to share with the poor"
Or, "I love without hypocrisy"
Or, "I answer not a fool in his folly"
Or, "I answer a fool in his folly"
Or, "I am diligent in study"
Or, "I walk worthy of God"...etc...

Who of us will say "this is where the completeness is found, here, with us, as us"?
Who will say "I have done all these things..." and hope to gain entrance by their own doings?

One thing thou lackest. 
Always that one thing.

Whenever I am confident of myself. Always that one thing gets pointed out.

I could say this thread was started with an eye to engaging the "not at homes"...the trying to reach and speak to the ones that "one" finds unreceptive to their brand.

I really know of only "one" good neighbor, the one who left his home and station to visit my sin infected house...and even he was loathe to say he was "good".
But, I may...and am glad to.


Little children, keep yourselves from idols.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

drippin' rock said:


> Man you are some long winded folks. Let's get to the punch line. Somebody is right and somebody is wrong. Who is it?  JW's or mainline Christians?



Ask The Judge.....that would be God.  In all honesty I feel JWs stand on very shaky doctrine.  That being said, I feel that God doesn't judge us on how much we understand, but how we respond to what we DO understand.


----------



## kmh1031

To Hobbs and others...

As far as us being called Christian…
Yes, we endeavor to be every day, much like many out her on this site. Being Christian, means, “Christ like”, and following the teachings of Christ, and more importantly applying them in our lives, and doing what he did as well as his apostles…preaching the good news about the kingdom, and thus this is what started this post. We strive to do that everyday…

SO yes we believe in Jesus Christ and what his life and death meant to us. In fact, on April 14 we are celebrating the anniversary of his death…the one celebration that he commanded his followers to keep. It is based on the exact date of his death according to the Jewish calendar…Nisan 14.

Regarding just a couple other points, you have made…on the NWT of the Bible..

Some linguists have examined modern Bible translations including the New World Translation for examples of inaccuracy and bias. 
One such scholar is Jason David BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University in the United States. 
In 2003 he published a 200-page study of nine of “the Bibles most widely in use in the English-speaking world.” 

His study examined several passages of Scripture that are controversial, for that is where “bias is most likely to interfere with translation.” 

For each passage, he compared the Greek text with the renderings of each English translation, and he looked for biased attempts to change the meaning. What is his assessment?

BeDuhn points out that the general public and many Bible scholars assume that the differences in the New World Translation (NW) are due to religious bias on the part of its translators. 

However, he states: “Most of the differences are due to the greater accuracy of the NW as a literal, conservative translation.” 

While BeDuhn disagrees with certain renderings of the New World Translation, he says that this version “emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared.” He calls it a “remarkably good” translation.

Also, Dr. Benjamin Kedar, a Hebrew scholar in Israel, made a similar comment concerning the New World Translation. He said: “This work reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible. . . . I have never discovered in the New World Translation any biased intent to read something into the text that it does not contain.”

Various other scholars were impressed. For example, British Bible scholar Alexander Thomson noted that the New World Translation is outstanding in accurately rendering the Greek present tense. 

Most importantly, in the NWT God’s name (Jehovah) has been restored.   Why was it taken out of many versions, translations when it was in the original writings over 6,200 times? Older versions of many translations contain it, but in the past few years it is absent…

Ask yourself: ‘What is my goal in reading the Bible? Do I want easy reading with less attention to accuracy? Or do I want to read thoughts that reflect the original inspired text as closely as possible?’ Our objective should determine your choice of translation.

“Bound their members, and do not allow them the freedom to think?

No, quite the opposite my friend…as my family was a member of another “organized religion” and was told what to believe from the “pulpit” every Sunday…without doing much research on my own (my fault)

However, the more I attended, and read the KJV, I realized that what was being taught was not in line with Bible teaching..so we left. 

And just so you will know, we have regular Bible study as individuals, as groups and at our church. We examine and study the complete bible and utilize many, many translations and reference bibles to get the “sense” of what was written. 

“We rewrite the bible”? Go to a book store and see how many versions, translations, “easy read” bibles there are on the shelf that are written differently from the original translations. 

Since many of our members, were Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, (as I was) and more before studying the bible and becoming a JW, we have the opportunity, to learn about all religions, and their beliefs and continue proving that what we may believe is in line with what the bible teaches. 

I realize that some of these beliefs are different than what may be presented here. However, just like all, we are imperfect, and are working hard to get the true meaning of the bible, regardless of the version/translation. 

Truth is, IF one is looking for the truth, it can be found in any bible.

Regarding Dates…we continue to use Bible chronology and events, to determine the time we are living in, and the continued fulfillment of many scriptures. At no time was any date projected by our organization as the end of the world. 
Some individuals, though as you pointed out concluded that 1975 being the end of mankind’s 6,000 year existence on earth assumed that this was going to be the end..
However, it was not taught, nor proclaimed by JW’s as a group. We are all familiar with the scripture at Matt 24: 36:
“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father”

So, we do believe in Jesus ransom sacrifice, and that only through him can we get salvation….

So, perhaps, you may have some incorrect ideas about our beliefs …and may want to do a little more research. 

I am sure that IF I went to the internet and looked up your beliefs, as well as any others here, I could find positive and negative comments about them. 

Thus the reason I have never spoke in a negative fashion on your beliefs, but have talked to you personally via this site.


----------



## Israel

As peculiar as this may sound, I am inclined to believe your reception has been no less cordial than one who might venture here extolling the benefits of being a Baptist, a Catholic, a Presbyterian, etc.
We are all, everyone, the world over, being tested, Christ exalter or Christ denier, for our belief.
If God so winnows that our faith be found as only a speck of dust amidst the cumbersome clutter of all else...thanks be to God.
If the righteous be scarcely saved...and for God's purposes, it be enough...to him alone be the glory.
Would I like to think better of myself?
"One thing thou lackest" is all I hear in response.


----------



## rjcruiser

kmh1031 said:


> RJ,
> I will respond to a couple of your comments, questions, and hope that I have done so to all, as this is a long thread..
> 
> You mentioned cult, which is according to the dictionary,
> a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous
> 
> Are our beliefs extreme? Different than some here, but not from a cult...as we use, read, study the bible as imperfect people, trying to determine how to worship god in spirit and truth, as the bible told us to do.
> 
> And as far as Christ being God this is a lengthy topic, but I am ready to give a defense...yes, he is a god, but not Almighty God...
> Jesus while on earth NEVER claimed to be God..ever.
> Ps 83:18 shows who almighty God is..
> And use an original translation of the Bible to get who that was and the name mentioned. As it was mentioned over 6.200 times in the original writings...
> 
> The Bible does not portray Jesus as being Almighty God or equal to God. On the contrary, it clearly teaches that Jesus is a god, but not Almighty God, and inferior to God.



Well...I'd say your belief that Jesus is a god...and not the "I AM" is dangerous and extreme.  For Jesus called himself God...and that is why the Jews wanted him dead...again...see passage in Mark 2.


The fact that Jesus is God is a core belief of Christians....it has been something that was taught from the beginning of the church.  To teach something other than this is a false gospel...and why the term "cult" is given to JWs.  

I know we won't come to an agreement on what the scripture says...which is fine...but all should study Christology....and determine their belief on who Christ is.  If one can study the Bible....the doctrine of Christ...and come to the conclusion that Christ is in fact, merely a god...like us...then I guess they should join your church.  But if they determine that Christ is in fact not only the Son of God....but God himself...then they should realize that the teachings of the JW movement are the same false teachings talked about in Jude.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I prefer this "Oneness" Church's view of Jesus and they aren't even JW's. They use the Bible to explain what is biblical. There is only one God, God was in Jesus:

Paul taught that “God was in Christ” reconciling the world unto himself (2 Corinthians 5:19) not “incarnated” as the Christ. Jesus was the manifestation of God, as he himself testified (John 14:10). In nature he was the same as all mankind, “tempted in all points like his brethren” but in begettal (the manner of his birth) Jesus was divine for he was anointed by God with the Holy Spirit “without measure” (Acts 10:38; John 3:34) and it is in that sense that Jesus differed from all men before or since (Hebrews 4:14-15 and Hebrews 9:24).

“Jesus Christ”, the Son of God, is not the “second person” of an eternal Trinity, but the manifestation of the One Eternal Creator who is “above all and through all” (Ephesians 4:6), and “to whom are all things” (Romans 11:36). By God’s Spirit, this Creator begat (caused to be birthed) Jesus, who God deemed would be to Him a Son (Hebrews 1:5); by the same power God anointed him and dwelt in him and with him (Acts 10:38; 2 Corinthians 5:19). Allowing himself to be used by God through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Jesus was Emmanuel, God with us, God manifested in the flesh-yet was, prior to his death, of like nature with mortal man, being made of a woman of the house and lineage of David, and therefore a sufferer in the days of his flesh (Matthew 1:23; 1 Timothy 3:16; Hebrews 2:7; Galatians 4:4)

Jesus Christ, therefore, must be considered from two points of view, one Deity and the other Man. The man was the Son, whose existence dates from the birth of Jesus; the Deity dwelling in him was the Father, Who without beginning of days, is alone eternally pre-existent. God’s relation to the Son was made known in the event related in Luke 1:35, by which Paul styles as being ‘the mystery of Godliness;’ for God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory (1 Timothy 3:16).”

http://www.theonenessofgod.org/what-we-believe/


----------



## Artfuldodger

The Doctrine Of God

(John 7:16)Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.

 There is One God, Isa 42:8, 45:5 Ex 3:15

There is One Mediator between God 
and men, the man Christ Jesus, 
1 Ti 2:5, Ac 2:22

Jesus was “MADE” of a Woman, Ga 4:4 whom God said:
 “and he shall be to me a Son” Heb 1:5

God Was “MANIFEST” (revealed)
 “In The Flesh” (the life of Jesus), 1 Ti 3:16
 To wit that God was “IN” Christ, 2 Co 5:19 
“the father that dwelleth in me” Jn 14:10

 Christ Died for our sins, Ro 5:6, 1Co 15:3

God Raised Jesus from the Dead, Ac 4:10

Jesus is in heaven “with” God, Heb 9:24

We are Children & Sons of God, Ro 8:14, Ga 3:26, Ga 4:4-7

 We are Brothers & Sisters with Christ
 Mat 12:50, Mk 3:35, Ro 8:17


Human Created Creeds
(Non-Biblical)

 The concept of God as a Trinity being

The concept of One And “THE SAME”

God was Totally Human & Totally God
 (A contradictory concept within itself)

The concept God Was “INCARNATED”
 (“As” Jesus Christ)

God Came To Earth “APPEARING AS” a Human infant, then “ACTED AS” or “PRETENDED TO BE" a Son to Himself

It was God who Died for our sins

Jesus Raised Himself from the Dead

We are Children & Sons of Christ

Jesus is in heaven “as” God -

The concept of Don’t Ask & Don’t Tell
 Why? Because we can never prove a LIE
 So, Where is the “Human" Soul (Spirit) of Jesus?

http://www.theonenessofgod.org/


----------



## hobbs27

Kmh and moonpie, 

 I guess Im done here unless more interesting topics pop up. Im getting stuff ready to go to our family house at Keaton Beach to get in some trout fishing over this spring break.

 Ive enjoyed the discussions with you and I feel a burden has been lifted off me talking to you about Matthew 24 and how Jesus said in verse 34 & 35 
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

 If you are truly seekers of truth these verses will sting everytime you read them until you give in to what they are saying and admit it.

 Theres one more I want to leave with you that should make you think a bit, its Revelation 1:1


King James Version (KJV)

 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 Now you said you studied the bible and studied it chronological---so you do understand what is meant in this very first verse that was written bout 1950 years ago::  things which must soon come to pass?    Keep this in mind as you study and it will sting a bit too, until you accept it as truth and give in to what it is saying, then you will be as me and enjoying this true kingdom of earth known as The New Covenant Christs kingdom of grace, you will be so


----------



## kmh1031

Hobbs,
I too have enjoyed our discussions, and really do appreciate your comments, as well as your particular view and hope that you have appreciated my view. I guess we agree to disagree...

And, I do enjoy trout fishing...and you could invite me! Just kidding...
Good luck with your fishing, and being with family as that is precious.

Be safe, and perhaps we will talk again sometime...
Headed to Wildcat Creek, up in the GA mountains soon myself to trout fish....one weekend soon.

Thanks for the additional thoughts...and the song...

KMH


----------



## Israel

hobbs27 said:


> Kmh and moonpie,
> 
> I guess Im done here unless more interesting topics pop up. Im getting stuff ready to go to our family house at Keaton Beach to get in some trout fishing over this spring break.
> 
> Ive enjoyed the discussions with you and I feel a burden has been lifted off me talking to you about Matthew 24 and how Jesus said in verse 34 & 35
> 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
> 
> 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
> 
> If you are truly seekers of truth these verses will sting everytime you read them until you give in to what they are saying and admit it.
> 
> Theres one more I want to leave with you that should make you think a bit, its Revelation 1:1
> 
> 
> King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
> 
> Now you said you studied the bible and studied it chronological---so you do understand what is meant in this very first verse that was written bout 1950 years ago::  things which must soon come to pass?    Keep this in mind as you study and it will sting a bit too, until you accept it as truth and give in to what it is saying, then you will be as me and enjoying this true kingdom of earth known as The New Covenant Christs kingdom of grace, you will be so




Ha! Thanks...like a room without a roof!


----------



## GunnSmokeer

*likes and dislikes*

Three things about Jehovah's Witnesses that appeal to me:

1.)  Jesus is the Son of God, but not God himself in human form, and not part of a Trinity. God is superior to the Son. 

2.) They do not worship humans.  Setting aside the nature of Jesus Christ, at the very least this means no praying to saints, no idolizing church leaders, etc.  (Although I think they take this too far with respect to not celebrating birthdays).  They do not talk about their own church leaders and founders of their movement. They talk about the bible and God, not what Charles Taze Russell did or said or wrote back in the day.

3.)  They are vigilant about rooting out religious practices and beliefs that are based on the ideas of man rather than the instructions of God.  For example, they know that full-immersion baptism was the way it was done in the bible, and it's still possible to do it that way, so they insist on doing it. Even if sprinkling a few drops of water would be more convenient.  


BUT three things about Witnesses that I don't like:

A.)   They reject the world, society in general, civil government, etc. I wouldn't write-off the world or the institutions and advances of mankind as just the meaningless meddlings of Satan. 

B.)    They live in this society that is managed by our government and which is protected by our military forces, but they will not assist in running the government or serving in the military, no matter how pressing the need or how evil the foe is.   That's being a "free rider" and benefiting from the service of others.  I feel the same way about the Amish.  They could not exist in a nation made up only of their kind--or if they could exist, they would not thrive, and ultimately they would cease to exist as they would eventually be conquered by stronger groups.

C.)  Their selective reading of the Old Testament laws of Moses, making a big deal about consuming blood while not otherwise keeping Kosher and wearing garments of mixed fabrics, or planting two kinds of seeds in the same  garden.

When it comes to blood transfusions, I think the rule should be informed by Christ's response to those that said his disciples violated the Law of the Sabbath by harvesting grain on that day.  Christ basically said that's a good general rule, but there are exceptions based on unusual cases of necessity. This allows a small amount of food preparation even on the Sabbath, because that law was made to serve the needs of man, and man was not made to serve [the law about] the Sabbath.

If a person who is very hungry can briefly stop to pick some food from a garden on his way home, even on the Sabbath, then a person who is sick and needs a blood transfusion can consume blood that way.  I think that under dire circumstances, a person can righteously drink blood.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I see some things I too like about the JW's and some I don't but I can do this with every Protestant denomination, Catholics , Quakers, Hutterites, Amish, and Mormons(LDS).

Take the Amish, they too separate themselves from the world but are way better than most at helping and forgiving.


----------



## Mako22

The JWs are a hateful cult that ruin folks lives, I have seen 1st hand how they dis-fellowship individuals and then force their own blood family to turn on them.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Woodsman69 said:


> The JWs are a hateful cult that ruin folks lives, I have seen 1st hand how they dis-fellowship individuals and then force their own blood family to turn on them.



Aren't we required to rebuke Church members as Paul told the Church to do to the man sleeping with his wicked Stepmother?
Doesn't the Bible say even families will be divided?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

I find it strange that they  are careful about verses in regard to Jesus being God, yet they pull out of context  a couple verses about blood and invent a division that is completly unfounded...... and will not consider that they are straining out a knat to swallow a camel.


----------



## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> I find it strange that they  are careful about verses in regard to Jesus being God, yet they pull out of context  a couple verses about blood and invent a division that is completly unfounded...... and will not consider that they are straining out a knat to swallow a camel.



The Church of Christ, Scientist (a.k.a. Christian Science) refuse all medical treatment.

They would make good predestination believers, believing God will heal them or not.
My days are truly numbered but I don't want to shorten the number by refusing medical care or a blood transfusion.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> The Church of Christ, Scientist (a.k.a. Christian Science) refuse all medical treatment.
> 
> They would make good predestination believers, believing God will heal them or not.
> My days are truly numbered but I don't want to shorten the number by refusing medical care or a blood transfusion.


I would already be dead with the blood. As much as I did not want to, non religious reasons, I had to


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> The Church of Christ, Scientist (a.k.a. Christian Science) refuse all medical treatment.
> 
> They would make good predestination believers, believing God will heal them or not.
> My days are truly numbered but I don't want to shorten the number by refusing medical care or a blood transfusion.


That's kinda funny Art, ain't it?
But...I get you...


----------



## clayservant

I think I will give moon pie a Christmas gift this year.


----------



## swampstalker24

This has been an interesting read for me....  For some reason I get a kick out of one person telling another person that their religion is stupid.....

I will say that it is good to see that some on here don't take that approach, and can a question anothers belief while still being tolerant and respectful....


----------



## 1gr8bldr

swampstalker24 said:


> This has been an interesting read for me....  For some reason I get a kick out of one person *telling another person that their religion is stupid.....*
> 
> I will say that it is good to see that some on here don't take that approach, and can a question anothers belief while still being tolerant and respectful....


I  sure hope none of my post are perceived that way. I can understand how our attitudes don't convey properly in writing. I just enjoy discussing these things, often bringing up a point of disagreement to provoke a discussion..... not to provoke.


----------



## rjcruiser

Had two come to my driveway this morning while I was saying goodbye to the wife leaving for some errands this morning.

Was an interesting debate....in which at the end, the two JWs decided that rather than seek out the truth, they'd continue on in their studies via the JW.org website.

They started out with pointing to Revelation 12 and a verse talking about the Serpent deceiving people on this earth.  I asked about Jesus being God....and they said they believed that Jesus was a god, not God the Father.

I asked them about Jesus claiming to be the "I AM" to which they responded about Jesus praying to the Father...doing the will of the Father....etc etc.

I then asked them about the Shema and if they believed what Duet. says about God being One..and there being One true God.  To which they both agreed, yes...only one true God. 

So...I asked...who is the one True God?  Jesus or God the Father...to which they had no reply.  They read John 1 out of the NW Translation...which adds an all important "a."  I told both of them to search out the original greek translation which doesn't have that there.  They both decided they'd had enough and politely declined.  They said they had both searched out the translation on their website and in their Bibles...and they had the truth.  With that, they decided to leave and did not want to debate anymore.  What was interesting is that they didn't want to explore the original greek text...but were fine with maintaining the status quo based on what they had been taught.


Again, the Doctrine of Christ is of utmost importance...doctrine is key.  We don't want to be like those in Hebrews who were "hard of hearing...content on the milk of the word...never maturing in our faith."


----------

