# How much does your arrow weigh?



## J-Rod (Nov 28, 2014)

So after having a chat with some guys on AT. It seems they think my arrow is to light to shoot a 2" two blade mechanical or a 1.75" 3 blade mechanical. ( Killzone and Spitfire Maxx) I'm right at 410 grains finished, pulling 70# at 29 inches on my Hoyt Charger. I thought I was good to go with just about anything honestly. They tell me that with does I would be fine but on a good size buck, a pass through would almost surprise them. Is this any of yalls experience? There recommending a 500+ grain arrow. I'm afraid that would bring my speed down way to much. Are they just saying this bc they are from out west where the deer are bigger?


----------



## BROWNING7WSM (Nov 28, 2014)

410 gr.... Your good. 

Mine weigh 380 finished.  Never had an issue.


----------



## Grey Man (Nov 28, 2014)

Be curious to know what others think. 

I'm at 70 lbs with a 31" draw and a 400 grain arrow, and I shoot 1 3/8" Grim Reapers. I've never put them through a deer older than 2.5, but from the difficulty I've had pulling them out of the ground, I can tell you they will rip through a big buck. I put one through the shoulder blade of a doe at 25 yards and still had to yank to pull it out of the ground. I have a very hard time believing that my setup will have any problems with a 200 pound buck. Maybe yours would because you are using bigger blades, but I would  bet against it.

In fact, I'm going to time how long it takes before someone with your setup posts a pic of a nice buck they killed. I'm thinking it will take less  than a day.

AT is full of guys who spend so much time thinking that they don't know anything.


----------



## Stealth (Nov 28, 2014)

My arrows weigh 376 grns.  Nothing but complete pass throughs on deer in Ohio and Georgia. I tried mechs one season out of curiosity had no problems with them but switched back to fixed blades the next season


----------



## The Arrow Guru (Nov 28, 2014)

J-Rod and Grey Man, I would say that in both cases your arrows are adequate for whitetail deer and some would say for elk. However I would say that they are not optimum. 

Everybody talks about arrow drop when going to a heavier arrow but the average whitetail deer is still killed at an average of 20 yards regardless of weapon. the drop just isn't as important as people think. Add to that the fact that you can go really heavy and the difference at bow hunting distances just isn't very much.

My arrow has been getting heavier and heavier over the years. The more I think about and test, the more advantages I find in heavy arrows with high FOC verses and negatives.

My current arrow is about 450 grains, however I have purchased all the components to build a new set of arrows that will end up weighing around the 525 grain mark with over 200 of that in the front.

What you have WILL work but there will be instances where it will not do what you want it to when things do not go jut right. These types of failures are almost always blamed on the broached when in actuality, it can be blamed on low poundage, light arrows, or less than perfect arrow flight.

Hope this helps


----------



## DuckArrow (Nov 28, 2014)

With 410gr you are good, no idea why they would have told you that it wasn't heavy enough. Mine are 475.5+\-. Which is heavier than a lot of people shoot but not crazy.


----------



## Kris87 (Nov 29, 2014)

460 grains.  I shoot big mechanicals too.  You can't really be too heavy IMO.


----------



## lungbuster123 (Nov 29, 2014)

427 grains of pain here. Shooting either Rage or Killzones at 68lbs. J-rod the buck in my avatar was killed with a setup real similar to yours just a little higher IBO speed but I was shooting a Vector Turbo at 29" and 70lbs with a 390 grain arrow and 2 blade Rage. 30 yards straight through him and never found the arrow. 175 lbs if I remember correctly


----------



## dvmill (Nov 29, 2014)

As a general rule no less that six grains per pound.  60lb = 360 gr. this has always worked well for me.


----------



## BlackEagle (Nov 29, 2014)

378 Grains finished weight. 

I shoot the Killzones as well. Never had a problem.


----------



## pasinthrough (Nov 29, 2014)

396 here for this year.  I went down to about 373 last year and didn't like it near as much.  I've always shot around 400-420 so the 396 isn't too far from that.  I may add some pdp weights for next year...


----------



## work2play (Nov 29, 2014)

I'm at 465grains this year, love it. 280fps @28' @65lbs

check this out


----------



## J-Rod (Nov 29, 2014)

Well, I just bought new arrows and stepped up to 410 from 370 grains. Looks like before season next year I may be moving up again. Obviously more weight means less speed. At what number would you say your shooting to slow? I know traditional guys shoot I the high 100's but I'm definatly not shooting that slow.


----------



## BROWNING7WSM (Nov 29, 2014)

J-Rod said:


> Well, I just bought new arrows and stepped up to 410 from 370 grains. Looks like before season next year I may be moving up again. Obviously more weight means less speed. At what number would you say your shooting to slow? I know traditional guys shoot I the high 100's but I'm definatly not shooting that slow.



Waste your money on new arrows if you want but a 410 gr arrow is plenty for any whitetail.


----------



## Grey Man (Nov 29, 2014)

Actually took less than eight hours for someone to post that pic. That oughta tell you something.


----------



## Grey Man (Nov 29, 2014)

BIGRNYRS said:


> J-Rod and Grey Man, I would say that in both cases your arrows are adequate for whitetail deer and some would say for elk. However I would say that they are not optimum.
> 
> Everybody talks about arrow drop when going to a heavier arrow but the average whitetail deer is still killed at an average of 20 yards regardless of weapon. the drop just isn't as important as people think. Add to that the fact that you can go really heavy and the difference at bow hunting distances just isn't very much.
> 
> ...



Can't say I'm overly fussed about it. Why? Because soon optimum will be something else, and I'm not a gear head who likes to experiment or change every five minutes. Give me something that works and I'll use it and kill stuff. I use the 1 3/8" Reapers because the 2" gives people fits, while no one complains about the 1 3/8". I use Gold Tips XT Hunters because they are affordable, dependable and reliable. I shoot a single cam bow because it's less fickle. If I had it to do over again, I'd probably pick 125 grain Reapers instead of 100. Probably will get some. But I've been doing this long enough to know that I'm not going to chase optimum. Give me old reliable any day.


----------



## alligood729 (Nov 30, 2014)

Grey Man said:


> Can't say I'm overly fussed about it. Why? Because soon optimum will be something else, and I'm not a gear head who likes to experiment or change every five minutes. Give me something that works and I'll use it and kill stuff. I use the 1 3/8" Reapers because the 2" gives people fits, while no one complains about the 1 3/8". I use Gold Tips XT Hunters because they are affordable, dependable and reliable. I shoot a single cam bow because it's less fickle. If I had it to do over again, I'd probably pick 125 grain Reapers instead of 100. Probably will get some. But I've been doing this long enough to know that I'm not going to chase optimum. Give me old reliable any day.


So, what I get from that last statement, is that you are satisfied with reliable, but aren't interested enough to find out what it takes to get the absolute most out of your setup....I'm certainly not trying to pick at you, just wondering. I'm one'a them that likes to tinker...not as much as Byron and kris, but I do want the best I can get out of mine. Then, I know it's reliable.


----------



## The Arrow Guru (Nov 30, 2014)

alligood729 said:


> So, what I get from that last statement, is that you are satisfied with reliable, but aren't interested enough to find out what it takes to get the absolute most out of your setup....I'm certainly not trying to pick at you, just wondering. I'm one'a them that likes to tinker...not as much as Byron and kris, but I do want the best I can get out of mine. Then, I know it's reliable.



There is no doubt that I am probably the most prolific "tinkerer" out there. At least that I know. However I will give a little back ground.

Every since I was a boy I have been a knowledge hound. I have never wanted anything done for me I have always wanted to know how to do it for myself. I suppose it's a quality that my dad pounded into me as I grew up. Anytime I said I didn't know how, his response was "Well, now is as good of a time to learn as any." And then he would make me stay with what ever task until I did it and did it correctly. Growing up in the HVAC and Electrical construction business my dad has made me tear out a complete duct system that I had just put in an redo it because it didn't look good and he would not put his name on it.

So fast forward a little and I'm 15 years old and i have my first compound bow. A hand me down from my uncle. I am at the bow shop and I would pay the guy for some work, but end up having him show me how to do it and doing it myself. Thinking back I must have irritated that guy to no end. Some of you know him, Dubba Shulenburg. He was at Southern Outdoor Enthusiast in Roopeville Ga, then Buck Creek in Carrollton and finally Bowhunters Supply in Carrollton. I guess Dubba is about 86 years old now.

I can remember buying my first premium bow, a PSE Baby G and taking it home and completely disassembling it in my living room. Every E-clip, axle, bushing, and part played in order across the living room floor so that I could figure out how these bows work.

So when it comes to arrows, I have always been fascinated with what makes them work or not work. I notice things. Like, the fact that less and less pass through shots are made on TV than they used to. I talked to Travis the other day about this and his assumption was the same as mine. Guys are using light poundage, light arrows and putting too much emphasis on speed.

Once I discovered Dr. Ed Ashby's articles on arrow lethality I was engrossed and I think I read all of his published articles in one week!

So, when the question like "Is my arrow heavy enough?" is asked it has many layers. It is kind of the same as asking if a .223 is a large enough caliber for deer. Yes, it WILL kill deer but will there be problems? Probably. 

I have posted the video above several times. The fact is that the difference in arrow drop just isn't as pronounced as people think, but the penetration potential goes up dramatically with weight and FOC.

Grey Man, never think that I am telling you that you are wrong at any point about YOUR set up, I believe that confidence is also a major factor in this activity of bow hunting. But I am alway pursuing optimal, all the time. Bow hunting by it's nature is a log jam of things that can go wrong, trying to over power that is something that is constantly on my mind.

Like the broad head issue, I would bet there is no one on this board that has shot more broad heads and has spend as much money on that one component than I have. 

Know this, if I offer an opinion on something related to the bow and arrow, that opinion has been shaped by a lot of research and testing and not simply biased base on what I use.


----------



## alligood729 (Nov 30, 2014)

I can attest to the fact that Byron is a heavyweight tinkerer...but I have a question Byron. I already said that I've gone from a 340 gr arrow to a 390 gr this year, and will probably be around 430 very soon. But is there a point, where you can start losing "optimum" performance out of your bow, by going heavier and heavier? I have my opinion, but what say ye? I know the faster you can push a heavy arrow the more ke you build, and momentum you maintain, but is there a wall you hit by going too heavy? Am I making myself clear?


----------



## The Arrow Guru (Nov 30, 2014)

alligood729 said:


> I can attest to the fact that Byron is a heavyweight tinkerer...but I have a question Byron. I already said that I've gone from a 340 gr arrow to a 390 gr this year, and will probably be around 430 very soon. But is there a point, where you can start losing "optimum" performance out of your bow, by going heavier and heavier? I have my opinion, but what say ye? I know the faster you can push a heavy arrow the more ke you build, and momentum you maintain, but is there a wall you hit by going too heavy? Am I making myself clear?



There is always a point of diminished returns. The easy way to draw that line is to go as heavy as you can with acceptable trajectory. Let me give you a little scenario. If I am setting up for whitetail deer, although it's a romantic notion that we are going to be making 50 yard shots, it simply isn't reality. So, I set in my mind that I will be making 40 yard shots at the very max and the typical shot will be 20. There for I am not in need of a super flat shooting arrow. I always use a range finder and generally landmark yardage circles around my stand before hand. Therefore as long as I do not have such an arc on my arrow that I am in danger of hitting limbs above my line of sight I am happy. Now, let say that I am heading back to Colorado to hunt elk on public land. I am going to build some what of a lighter arrow for trajectory. I will be prepared to make a longer shot and I want a little more of a flat arrow, but only to a point. I still will be mindful of FOC and overall mass because of the size of the animal. It seems a little backwards to lighten the arrow for the heavier animal, but the potential for a longer range shot has to be figured in. Fact is I am probably taking about going from a 500 grain arrow for deer to a 450 for elk. All these arrows fall into the "moderate" range for arrow weight. The fact is MOST hunters are using arrows that are considered "very light". I personally think that the bare minimum arrow I would ever use for anything is 400 grains even for squirrels.

Dr. Ashby says that the magic number for optimum arrow weight starts at the 650 grain mark. Although I have not gotten to that extreme, southern whitetails make up 90% of my hunting, I have cheated towards that every year.

Just to back up the practice of what I am talking about verses me talking about it. When I went to Illinois to hunt really big whitetails, I built an arrow accordingly. I had a 580 grain Harvest Time shaft with a 90 grain insert and 125 grain broad head. It went through a 250lb whitetail and sunk to the fletching in the ground.

I still shoot a full 70 pound compound too. I am by no means a strong man, but I lift weights and workout with functional strength as the goal in order to make that easy. I considered an 80 pound compound this year but didn't end up going that route.

So a lot of this is personally subjective. What is a acceptable trajectory? Well, that is up to each one of us. Knowing that most all the deer I shoot are inside of 30 yards, I could probably shoot a 1000 grain arrow and be good, but I do like to have the option of longer shots.


----------



## alligood729 (Nov 30, 2014)

BIGRNYRS said:


> There is always a point of diminished returns. The easy way to draw that line is to go as heavy as you can with acceptable trajectory. Let me give you a little scenario. If I am setting up for whitetail deer, although it's a romantic notion that we are going to be making 50 yard shots, it simply isn't reality. So, I set in my mind that I will be making 40 yard shots at the very max and the typical shot will be 20. There for I am not in need of a super flat shooting arrow. I always use a range finder and generally landmark yardage circles around my stand before hand. Therefore as long as I do not have such an arc on my arrow that I am in danger of hitting limbs above my line of sight I am happy. Now, let say that I am heading back to Colorado to hunt elk on public land. I am going to build some what of a lighter arrow for trajectory. I will be prepared to make a longer shot and I want a little more of a flat arrow, but only to a point. I still will be mindful of FOC and overall mass because of the size of the animal. It seems a little backwards to lighten the arrow for the heavier animal, but the potential for a longer range shot has to be figured in. Fact is I am probably taking about going from a 500 grain arrow for deer to a 450 for elk. All these arrows fall into the "moderate" range for arrow weight. The fact is MOST hunters are using arrows that are considered "very light". I personally think that the bare minimum arrow I would ever use for anything is 400 grains even for squirrels.
> 
> Dr. Ashby says that the magic number for optimum arrow weight starts at the 650 grain mark. Although I have not gotten to that extreme, southern whitetails make up 90% of my hunting, I have cheated towards that every year.
> 
> ...


----------



## J-Rod (Nov 30, 2014)

BIGRNYRS said:


> There is always a point of diminished returns. The easy way to draw that line is to go as heavy as you can with acceptable trajectory. Let me give you a little scenario. If I am setting up for whitetail deer, although it's a romantic notion that we are going to be making 50 yard shots, it simply isn't reality. So, I set in my mind that I will be making 40 yard shots at the very max and the typical shot will be 20. There for I am not in need of a super flat shooting arrow. I always use a range finder and generally landmark yardage circles around my stand before hand. Therefore as long as I do not have such an arc on my arrow that I am in danger of hitting limbs above my line of sight I am happy. Now, let say that I am heading back to Colorado to hunt elk on public land. I am going to build some what of a lighter arrow for trajectory. I will be prepared to make a longer shot and I want a little more of a flat arrow, but only to a point. I still will be mindful of FOC and overall mass because of the size of the animal. It seems a little backwards to lighten the arrow for the heavier animal, but the potential for a longer range shot has to be figured in. Fact is I am probably taking about going from a 500 grain arrow for deer to a 450 for elk. All these arrows fall into the "moderate" range for arrow weight. The fact is MOST hunters are using arrows that are considered "very light". I personally think that the bare minimum arrow I would ever use for anything is 400 grains even for squirrels.
> 
> Dr. Ashby says that the magic number for optimum arrow weight starts at the 650 grain mark. Although I have not gotten to that extreme, southern whitetails make up 90% of my hunting, I have cheated towards that every year.
> 
> ...



I'm not going to tinker to the extreme of taking my bow completely apart. Mainly bc I could never get it back together. I do however want to learn to work on my own rig and better understand how everything works together. The purpose of this thread is simple. I wanted to know what some of you thought about the weight of my current arrow. It seems that what I have now will definatly do the job of killing whitetails around here. But, after reading this thread I will definatly being doing some experimenting to find the optimum arrow for my setup and style of hunting. When I achieve this I will have the most lethal arrow combo that will take down my game as fast as possible and a huge boost in confidence in my equipment. Thank you for all your input and advice.


----------



## Grey Man (Dec 1, 2014)

J-Rod said:


> I'm not going to tinker to the extreme of taking my bow completely apart. Mainly bc I could never get it back together. I do however want to learn to work on my own rig and better understand how everything works together. The purpose of this thread is simple. I wanted to know what some of you thought about the weight of my current arrow. It seems that what I have now will definatly do the job of killing whitetails around here. But, after reading this thread I will definatly being doing some experimenting to find the optimum arrow for my setup and style of hunting. When I achieve this I will have the most lethal arrow combo that will take down my game as fast as possible and a huge boost in confidence in my equipment. Thank you for all your input and advice.



I think that's wise. Like Alligood said of me, I'm not one to tinker, but that's because of your second to last sentence: I think confidence in equipment is vital. I'd venture to say that's more true for me than for most.

For instance, two years before I went elk hunting, I looked at every aspect of my setup and shooting. I improved my form, got better arrows, different broadheads, basically changed everything. That year, I missed the deer I shot at. I had changed everything and it took me a  year to get the confidence I needed. But when I went elk hunting, I was better than before. It took me a year to get that confidence.

Now that I believe in my equipment, I'm a better shot than I've ever been, and I don't want to tinker with that just to get a bit of extra performance, whether it's speed or arrow weight or anything.  I will make changes again, I'm sure, but when I do it will be long before the season, and it will be done in a direction that is tried and true. So we'll see if this heavy arrow thing goes away, or becomes the new old reliable. I'll watch, wait, learn, and along the way keep killing stuff.


----------



## rbuck2 (Dec 1, 2014)

340 grains, pulling 70 pounds and 28". Pass thru's at 30 yards with swhackers!


----------



## tmullins (Dec 1, 2014)

27" draw , 62# draw weight , 395 grains, 265 fps  = Enough KE for 3 pass throughs this season....


----------



## GTHunter007 (Dec 2, 2014)

BIGRNYRS said:


> There is always a point of diminished returns. The easy way to draw that line is to go as heavy as you can with acceptable trajectory. Let me give you a little scenario. If I am setting up for whitetail deer, although it's a romantic notion that we are going to be making 50 yard shots, it simply isn't reality. So, I set in my mind that I will be making 40 yard shots at the very max and the typical shot will be 20. There for I am not in need of a super flat shooting arrow. I always use a range finder and generally landmark yardage circles around my stand before hand. Therefore as long as I do not have such an arc on my arrow that I am in danger of hitting limbs above my line of sight I am happy. Now, let say that I am heading back to Colorado to hunt elk on public land. I am going to build some what of a lighter arrow for trajectory. I will be prepared to make a longer shot and I want a little more of a flat arrow, but only to a point. I still will be mindful of FOC and overall mass because of the size of the animal. It seems a little backwards to lighten the arrow for the heavier animal, but the potential for a longer range shot has to be figured in. Fact is I am probably taking about going from a 500 grain arrow for deer to a 450 for elk. All these arrows fall into the "moderate" range for arrow weight. The fact is MOST hunters are using arrows that are considered "very light". I personally think that the bare minimum arrow I would ever use for anything is 400 grains even for squirrels.
> 
> Dr. Ashby says that the magic number for optimum arrow weight starts at the 650 grain mark. Although I have not gotten to that extreme, southern whitetails make up 90% of my hunting, I have cheated towards that every year.
> 
> ...



What you are describing is all about Momentum.  There is a point where velocity drops to a point that momentum starts to drop on any given bow.  Increase the weight...increases momentum even as the speed drops but eventually both start to fall. So shooting a 1000gr arrow is likely not going to be ideal because it could surpass the point where momentum continues to increase.  

I have a question, as I am about to build off my newly acquired Elite.  Momentum/Penetration will be my main focus.  Forget speed.  

The higher weighted arrows have a stiffer spine...at what point have you experienced diminishing returns on arrow flight by getting an overspined arrow?  For example, in using the calculators on the bow I have coming in (I know the numbers won't be exactly right) the charts all tell me a 400 spined arrow is optimal.  I will start with 340s, but to get the higher KE and MO I am after, I want the 300s, I need heavier spined arrows and perhaps a step up to 125 gr broadheads.  But at what cost can going too far with the arrows produce?


----------



## GTHunter007 (Dec 2, 2014)

For what its worth...speed is sexy for sure...but momentum and penetration IS the "Old Reliable" tried and true.  Just ask the Indians and the Trad gang.  

With the technology at our fingertips today, we should all be able to throw an arrow through a brick wall, not splinter on the face of it.


----------



## The Arrow Guru (Dec 2, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> What you are describing is all about Momentum.  There is a point where velocity drops to a point that momentum starts to drop on any given bow.  Increase the weight...increases momentum even as the speed drops but eventually both start to fall. So shooting a 1000gr arrow is likely not going to be ideal because it could surpass the point where momentum continues to increase.
> 
> I have a question, as I am about to build off my newly acquired Elite.  Momentum/Penetration will be my main focus.  Forget speed.
> 
> The higher weighted arrows have a stiffer spine...at what point have you experienced diminishing returns on arrow flight by getting an overspined arrow?  For example, in using the calculators on the bow I have coming in (I know the numbers won't be exactly right) the charts all tell me a 400 spined arrow is optimal.  I will start with 340s, but to get the higher KE and MO I am after, I want the 300s, I need heavier spined arrows and perhaps a step up to 125 gr broadheads.  But at what cost can going too far with the arrows produce?



You are exactly right, mass and momentum are the important attributes of an arrow. Many talk about Kenetic Energy, (KE) but they do this generally for the same reason every one talks about speed, because it's advertised by the archery manufacturers. KE is at best a measurement of how efficient any given compound bow is. If you were to do a KE measurement for an array of arrows shot out of the same bow, heavy arrows to light, they would all be very much the same with the heavier arrows having a little higher because the more mass the arrow has the more energy from the bow it can absorb and store. However that has nothing to do with penetration per say.

In answer to your question, it is very possible to tune a over spined arrow but in my opinion it will be a little more critical. However I will say that I try not to pick up all my weight in the shaft. I try to add a lot of weight to the front of the arrow and believe that a properly spined arrow is always better.

Diminished returns in my opinion will always relate to acceptable trajectory. As I mentioned in the other post I bet at the average distance that I shoot at deer, a 1000 grain arrow would be fine. Believe it or not I still would have not reached the point that my speed would have been reduced enough to affect momentum. However I do, and will again, take longer than average shots at animals and want to carry a little more speed than is necessary for 20 - 30 yards shots.

FOC is very important too. Two arrows that weigh the same but one has most of it's weight in the front will fly and penetrate better. High FOC does a few things. It helps in penetration for several reasons but one of the main reasons id controls oscillation on impact. Everybody has seen the videos of arrows being shot out of a bow but what a lot of people do not think about is that the arrow reacts very much the same way when it hits a target. With most of the weight in the front it reduces this effect and that keeps the the energy of the arrow pushing through the animal. The arrow can recover more quickly at the shot as well, meaning the arrow will be more consistent and easier to tune for the most part. It increases the "lever arm" of the fletching, in effect giving the fletching more control of the arrow. This will help with fixed blade flight. And lastly it allows the arrow to maintain more momentum as it flies down range and this will also help when thinking about acceptable trajectory. Yes, high FOC will help an arrow have  a flatter trajectory compared to a equally weighted arrow with the weight more evenly distributed throughout the shaft.


----------



## alligood729 (Dec 2, 2014)

Ya' know.....I started with a bow over 30 years ago, but I was a "30 day bowhunter, hit a pie plate at 20yds kinda shooter", and once mid October rolled around, out came the 06. Until about 8 years ago, when I got heavy into 3D, I was ignorant about all the aspects of getting the best performance out of my bow. I was fortunate enough to have enough common sense tho, to listen to others that had more knowledge than me, and I managed to kill a few with that game plan. I got a lesson in the real world of bow performance when the shop was still open in Covington, and my eyes were really opened. The first X Force bow came out in '07, and at that point, I was all about getting the fastest arrow I could out of my bow. 300+ was a pipe dream for short draw archers,  and that was what I strived for. I managed to actually get to 315fps one year, and was happy as a pig in slop, but shooting a 320 grain arrow. I killed deer with that setup, but nothing over 100lbs, and all does. In the following years, I've gradually went to a little heavier arrow, and like I've already said, this year it's at 390, but will be getting some of Tim's new Bipolar Express heads soon, and will be around 430. I want to see just how much difference it makes in speed and trajectory. I may not stick with it, may like the setup I have now, who knows. All I know, is that the last 8 years have taught me that I want my arrow leaving the bow as straight as possible, that my bow itself is tuned as well as it can be, and that I can deliver the best arrow for my setup to the maximum distance I feel comfortable shooting at a live animal. Several people have contributed to my ever increasing knowledge of the in's and out's of bow tuning, Steve and his crew, Tim Knight, Big John, GRIV, Kris, and yes, even ole' Byron...probably a couple I missed, but they know who they are. May have gone a little off topic for the thread, so I'll finish with this. Heavier is better......


----------



## The Arrow Guru (Dec 2, 2014)

I might even get this tattoo'd on me somewhere:

Mass + high FOC X perfect arrow flight = penetration 

Got me 6 Bi-Polar Express already! 

Oh and because a heavier arrow absorbs more energy, it makes your bow quieter!


----------



## gcs (Dec 3, 2014)

I'm 380 grain total arrow weight. My setup is 28-1/2" dl @70# dw. The biggest game I've taken with my setup were two bull elk. I was using Rage bh and both elk drop within 100yds of being shot. I didn't get a pass through on either but I did bury the arrow to the fletchings on both elk. I kinda want a heavier setup, maybe around 425-450 total grains so I can up my KE.


----------



## bowhunterdavid (Dec 3, 2014)

I am at 405 grain with a Easton axis 400, I think next year I will go heaver. a 340 are the full metal jacket.


----------



## Tlajoe (Dec 3, 2014)

Not going to get as technical as some of these posts but I think a lot depends on your set up and what it is capable of. I shoot a Hoyt Faktor 34 with 31" draw at 74lbs. Shooting Full Metal Jackets and 100 grain Killzones at 295fps. Arrow weight is 509 grains.


----------



## dvmill (Dec 3, 2014)

bowhunterdavid said:


> I am at 405 grain with a Easton axis 400, I think next year I will go heaver. a 340 are the full metal jacket.


I'm shooting the axis 500's thinking about going to the 400's let me know if you have any you want to get rid of if you do make the switch. Vic


----------



## GTHunter007 (Dec 3, 2014)

Tlajoe said:


> Not going to get as technical as some of these posts but I think a lot depends on your set up and what it is capable of. I shoot a Hoyt Faktor 34 with 31" draw at 74lbs. Shooting Full Metal Jackets and 100 grain Killzones at 295fps. Arrow weight is 509 grains.



That is destroying whatever it hits...best setup combination I have seen posted.  If you are truly getting 295fps.  You have a KE of 98.2 and Momentum of .67.  That is power and speed.  



I am currently doing a bunch of calculations on arrow combinations.  I am seeing a KE curve on my particular bow.  Low weight arrows (415 and lower) have the same KE as those over 500.  But on my bow, over 500 is taking the speeds close to 284.  The momentum is very very high though.  Meaning penetration will still be better.  

What I am seeing on my plotted chart, is I like my speeds and MO together around the 470gr arrow weights.  

So back calculating for setup on the arrow, I can deduct out arrow components like head, inserts, nocks and veins to then decide which arrow (within my spine designations) will do what I want.  I am liking the Axis 340 arrows loaded up on front to get to that weight.  As opposed to getting it through the heavier FMJs in same spine using a smaller broadhead.  The Axis with a 125 should give more FOC to go with the same KE and Momentum.


----------



## reylamb (Dec 3, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> That is destroying whatever it hits...best setup combination I have seen posted.  If you are truly getting 295fps.  You have a KE of 98.2 and Momentum of .67.  That is power and speed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For the record, and just being purely technical about it all.....


KE has no bell curve, at least not within realistic weights for hunting arrows.  It has been tested numerous times by folks out of actual bows, with actual weighted arrows, tuned correctly, spined correctly, through chronographs.  Out to at least 2500 grains, heavier always has more KE and more MO.  We are not talking 25% more, but still more...

A heavier arrow will always have more KE and more momentum when shot out of a given bow than a lighter arrow.....as long as the heavier arrow is at least stiff enough, and tuned properly to the bow......always, every time.  Pretty basic physics at work.

The online calculators will show a bell curve.  But they are wrong.

I am not saying everyone should run out and shoot 800 grain arrows.  I personally prefer to find a happy medium based upon the game animals you will be shooting, under the conditions that you normally hunt.

I like the 450 grain range for me personally.


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 3, 2014)

I'm at 460.  I'm on the other side of the spectrum...thinking of going lighter...maybe around the 375-390 range.  

Why?  Well...I've got a single pin slider and hunting out in the midwest, I'd like to have the pin set at 35ish and it be good from 20-50 with minimal drop.

But...at other times, I think the set up I have is working...so why change?


----------



## The Arrow Guru (Dec 3, 2014)

reylamb said:


> For the record, and just being purely technical about it all.....
> 
> 
> KE has no bell curve, at least not within realistic weights for hunting arrows.  It has been tested numerous times by folks out of actual bows, with actual weighted arrows, tuned correctly, spined correctly, through chronographs.  Out to at least 2500 grains, heavier always has more KE and more MO.  We are not talking 25% more, but still more...
> ...



Those same calculations will show that as weight increases the KE will increase marginally. This is due to the more mass absorbed ore energy. However the momentum increase much more as the weight goes up. 

I do believe that most people would have to really work to get an arrow in the very heavy range. It would be a dramatic change for most to get into the moderate - heavy range. Again, according to Dr. Ashby the "heavy" arrow STARTS at 650 grains! So if a guy gets out of the 300's in to the 400's the positive outweighs the negative 100 -1. I am realistic and there aren't very many that are going to build arrows in the 500 - 600 grain range. However I will keep preaching heavy arrows.


----------



## bluemarlin (Dec 4, 2014)

I'm in the process of building some that are going to be around 600 and 20% FOC.

My bow was set up shooting 66 pounds, 29 draw, shooting a 451g stick w 12% FOC at 256 fps and 66 lbs ke.
My broadhead stopped on the shoulder of one at 15 yards. No recovery.

This will make you change your set up.

So, I bumped it up to a 540g arrow w 180g German Kinetics. I'm sure I lost a little speed but the surprise throughout the process of slowly going heavier has been hardly any drop to my sight out to 30.. 
I rarely ever make a shot over 30 and most under 20. I'm cool with that. I've learned from my mistakes, when I try and stretch it over 30, my arrow has a slim chance to get there because of tree limbs or simply lack of windows.
I'm now have axis 300's with 75g brass inserts, 200g single bevel Helix broadhead, vanes, nocturnal, is just at 600g's.. I'll chrono them next week.
You can customize your game however you want but when you start having penetration issues, you want pass thrus, this opened my eyes to the power of heavy arrows and how quiet your bow can become.
It's kind of a traditional set up... Those guys kill deer w a stick and string.. Just have to keep in perspective and not try and stretch the limits of your equipment.

Now, if I was hunting out west I'd set my bow up differently…


----------



## tescobedo (Dec 4, 2014)

I'm planning for an elk hunt next year and going up from 425 grains to 550 grain arrows. Longer shots are influencing my choice less than the potential to impact bigger bones.


----------



## The Arrow Guru (Dec 4, 2014)

Let me put this in perspective for you. An ounce is 438 grains. If your arrow only weighs 380, it not even an ounce. It's pretty light.


----------



## J-Rod (Dec 4, 2014)

BIGRNYRS said:


> Let me put this in perspective for you. An ounce is 438 grains. If your arrow only weighs 380, it not even an ounce. It's pretty light.



Wow. This just floored me.


----------



## GTHunter007 (Dec 5, 2014)

bluemarlin said:


> I'm in the process of building some that are going to be around 600 and 20% FOC.
> 
> My bow was set up shooting 66 pounds, 29 draw, shooting a 451g stick w 12% FOC at 256 fps and 66 lbs ke.
> My broadhead stopped on the shoulder of one at 15 yards. No recovery.
> ...



Those 600s are gonna slow you down under 210 fps.  Reducing your KE substantially but upping your momentum (penetration).  

I am not willing to go that slow.  You WILL notice that in your arrow flight.


----------



## The Arrow Guru (Dec 5, 2014)

You can figure that the average modern compound will lose 1 FPS for every 3 grains of arrow weight.


----------



## reylamb (Dec 5, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> Those 600s are gonna slow you down under 210 fps.  Reducing your KE substantially but upping your momentum (penetration).
> 
> I am not willing to go that slow.  You WILL notice that in your arrow flight.



Again, no, it will not reduce the KE.

Also, if KE goes down....so does MO.  While the calculations are different the components for the calculations are the same.

KE will go up.  Is it a substantial increase?  No.  KE will go up with a heavier arrow.....as long as the heavier arrow is properly tuned and at least stiff enough.


----------



## alligood729 (Dec 5, 2014)

I figured my FOC today based on one of the online calculators, it's right at 17%.......Can't wait to get them 165 grain heads and see what it goes to.


----------



## Rich Blood (Dec 6, 2014)

J-Rod said:


> Is this any of yalls experience? There recommending a 500+ grain arrow.



Sounds right. I use the GTip hunters 5575 with 180grain, two blade Zwickies. Think I weigh out at just under 500 gr. Pass through every time unless I hit the shoulder ball perfectly on the other side. Then half the arrow just breaks off inside.


----------

