# We are our worse enemy!



## Glenn (Jun 11, 2006)

This was posted on several sites today and I did not see it here:

Basicly these clowns are making hunting a "Nascar" or "Fishing Tournament" event out of hunting. http://www.worldhunt.com/ is the web site.

There are letters being typed up as I type to respond to this and if allowed I will post them when ready. Folks friendly competition is one thing but out right killing animals for money and trophy's is not why we hunt.

feel free to comment....


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## Glenn (Jun 11, 2006)

*Here are media contactsfor those who wish to email the company on their own....and hopefully you will...

*




> In the mean time....here's some addresses we've found that anyone that cares to can contact.
> 
> Media Contacts
> Ken Mandelkern
> ...


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## Flintlock1776 (Jun 11, 2006)

*I was just about to post on that*



			
				Glenn said:
			
		

> This was posted on several sites today and I did not see it here:
> 
> Basicly these clowns are making hunting a "Nascar" or "Fishing Tournament" event out of hunting. http://www.worldhunt.com/ is the web site.
> 
> ...




It is starting to get out on other forums.

I already sent an email of to G5 and Polaris asking them "what were you thinking"

Drug shoot non-letal hunting. LIke WWF on Meth, this "hunt" deal is insane!


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## Mechanicaldawg (Jun 11, 2006)

It is pitiful, but don't be surprised to find folks on here before sunrise telling that it is awesome.


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## Son (Jun 11, 2006)

*They are our enemy*

Yep, Big money cashing in on another one of our outdoor experiences.


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## Glenn (Jun 11, 2006)

Jeff sad but true there will be those who think it is a great thing for our hunting heritage.

Glad to know some have seen it already....


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## Glenn (Jun 11, 2006)

Man this just keeps getting worse!

If you read in their "Mission Statement" they will be using "Non-Lethal" means to hunt.....DARTS!


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## tearbritches (Jun 11, 2006)

where is peta when you need 'em?


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## discounthunter (Jun 11, 2006)

it says non-fatal,couldnot find anything that said non-lethal,not that it makes much differance, it still looks pretty stupid,especially the guy sitting in the tree with the george w. hand action.


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## Jim Thompson (Jun 12, 2006)

idiots


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## Glenn (Jun 12, 2006)

discounthunter said:
			
		

> it says non-fatal,couldnot find anything that said non-lethal,not that it makes much differance, it still looks pretty stupid,especially the guy sitting in the tree with the george w. hand action.



Non-Fatal, Non Lethal....is there a difference?

Either way it is going to be a busy day of emails and letters


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## Mechanicaldawg (Jun 12, 2006)

Wonder how it feels to be shot with a blunt arrow moving 290+fps?


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## Son (Jun 12, 2006)

*They are our enemy*

Just another catch and release, so they can continue making money off the same game.
Nobody complained when the same happened to fishing. Guess people see fish and animals differently.


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## SADDADDY (Jun 12, 2006)

*bad, bad, to worse*

Sadly enough we done this to ourselves….
QDM, Trophy management, better deer, bigger deer, bigger antlers, Big Buck competitions, Hunting Shows promoting and showing nothing but huge B&C or P&Y Class animals, companies competing against one another to corner the hunting market with new ideas and hunters wanting more for less….the list goes on but it all boils down to greed and minemineminemine! or memememememe! Mentality. 
We are all guilty in some shape or form, some lease property to shoot bigger bucks, pay more $$ to join a lease to kill bigger Bucks or hope to kill more deer, Plant food plots to grow bigger and better deer, use all the high tech gadgets on the market to better our odds of killing a trophy animal, go on pay hunts that guarantee a trophy whitetail deer, watch and indorse these so called pro’s, Pro staffer’s or whatever you want to call them buying their video’s, watching their shows and buying their merchandise because the host may have shot a 180class buck using whatever they are selling at the time….Of course they are gonna push it to the extreme, some ideas fail and some are the next best thing hunters could not live with out, just hit and miss and I am sure if they pitch this idea another 10 years from now it will be all the rage because by then the video game experience will be needing something to take it just that much farther (real life, real time games) and it probably won’t be the hunter pushing for it but die hard gamers will be thirsty for some real time interaction game….

Sure I think it stinks, and yes these guys are idiots trying to push this on people but take a long look back and see where hunting is today compared to 25 years ago….now look forward and try to imagine what it will be like 25 years from today…doesn’t look to pretty from where I am sitting (Hunting is big business and once you release that dragon there is no stopping it)


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## MoeBirds (Jun 12, 2006)

Weird concept, I agree !!

But haven't the _Drury_ brothers been doing this sort of competition thing for the past few seasons??? 
....With their _Pros versus Ams _video-series, on the Outdoor Channel ???
www.druryoutdoors.com

...and what about www.CambellOutdoorChallenge.com ????

They comptete to actually "kill the largest bucks" for cash and prizes, while pretending its based on videography skills and foodplot product salesmanship  !!??

Plenty of well known hunting-industry sponsors are involved with these guys. I'm wondering why their isn't an equally conserted effort to pull these shows (via mass-emails) by concerned sportsmen. ????!!!


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## Randy (Jun 12, 2006)

Bound2Ramble is right.  I see nothing wrong here if you are in to it.  It would not be for me.  I want to kill the biggest not tag it!  Some people just want to kill something.  Some people just want to hunt something.  Some just want to sit in the woods.  Some people want to kill the most.  Some want to kill the biggest.  Some people want a challenge.  Some people want to make it easier.  Some just want to hang out at the club and get drunk.  How many times has it been said here about giving everybody a choice?


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## Glenn (Jun 12, 2006)

Randy....Do you like to eat wild game?

The reason I ask is if this guy gets his way there would be no killing at all and it would all be a game of catch and release. PETA and all the other ANTI groups are going to use this "added" fuel to put an end to hunting all lethal hunting all together.

Aside from that hunting is not a sport or game. It is a primal instinct between one predator and it's prey. Hunting has always been about putting food on the table for our family and never about putting cash in the back of someones pocket.

And I do have the right just like thousands of others to banned such nonsense as this.


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## Randy (Jun 12, 2006)

Glenn said:
			
		

> Randy....Do you like to eat wild game?



Yes, but that is not why I hunt.  It is much cheaper in the long run to buy meat. 




			
				Glenn said:
			
		

> The reason I ask is if this guy gets his way there would be no killing at all and it would all be a game of catch and release. PETA and all the other ANTI groups are going to use this "added" fuel to put an end to hunting all lethal hunting all together.



I dought that.




			
				Glenn said:
			
		

> Aside from that hunting is not a sport or game. It is a primal instinct between one predator and it's prey. Hunting has always been about putting food on the table for our family and never about putting cash in the back of someones pocket.



A primal instinct we no longer require to live.  Like having multipel partners, it might be a great primal instinct but it is not necessary for our survival.  It is in fact, a sport.  Putting food on the table is a good extra but it is not the reason most do it.  As stated above, all things considered, it is much cheaper to buy food.


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## SlipperyHill Mo (Jun 12, 2006)

Randy has made some good points.

How is fishing different than hunting? I use the fishing argument against the antis all of the time.

About the same to me.


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## Mechanicaldawg (Jun 12, 2006)

SlipperyHill Mo said:
			
		

> How is fishin different than hunting? .



You're kiddin' right?

What's the punchline?


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## Glenn (Jun 12, 2006)

You know what scares me more than the Anti Hunting groups are people who think it is ok to hunt in a High Fenced "Yard" and shoot animals with blunts for money and then call themselves "Professional Hunters".

I bet some of ya'll liked the Jimmy Houston video also?


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## Spinkaleo (Jun 12, 2006)

*Why not*

Why not do something like this, after all, money is the true driving force behind it.  What a bunch of idiots, why not just carry a good digital camera in lieu of the weapon?  That is the best way to hunt the "catch and release" method.


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## GeauxLSU (Jun 12, 2006)

*Though it may seem stupid, as does many new things...*

I confess, I don't feel the outrage either.  There are plenty other LEGAL methods that are much more detestable in my eyes AND the anti's eyes.  
Does this have any appeal to me?  No, not really.  But then again I don't "get" a lot of things.  
IMO though, 'catch and release hunting' for money, is way down on the list of atrocities in our sport.   I suspect they will be a flash in the pan and quietly disappear, but with the apparent desire to pay for testosterone (due to apparently lacking natural levels) in today's males in the U.S., maybe it will be a hit.  Who knows?


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## SlipperyHill Mo (Jun 12, 2006)

I am still waiting for an answer.

Animal size, brain size, type of weapons?


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## GeauxLSU (Jun 12, 2006)

SlipperyHill Mo said:
			
		

> I am still waiting for an answer.
> 
> Animal size, brain size, type of weapons?


You can't pet a fish.


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## Glenn (Jun 12, 2006)

G5 outdoors has withdrawn their sponsorship. 

For those who care about our heritage...


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## GeauxLSU (Jun 12, 2006)

Glenn said:
			
		

> G5 outdoors has withdrawn their sponsorship.
> 
> For those who care about our heritage...


Glenn,
I applaud your activism.


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## SlipperyHill Mo (Jun 12, 2006)

Good point Phil!


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## nwgahunter (Jun 12, 2006)

*Details?*



			
				Glenn said:
			
		

> G5 outdoors has withdrawn their sponsorship.
> 
> For those who care about our heritage...



You got any details on their withdrawl?


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## reylamb (Jun 12, 2006)

It is posted on their website.


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## MoeBirds (Jun 12, 2006)

For the record- I didn't say I was for it, or didn't have a problem with it. 
I do find it ridiculous, and sincerly aplaud your activism (for sportsmen) as well.

 Since this protest is going so well, and Jimmy Houston seems to be on the down slope thanks to his idiotic high fence hunt antics and concerned sportsmens oposition to them..... 

.....what about the Drury and Cambell video guys  ???
........shouldn't we start adressing their contest-sponsors as well ???
I don't see any difference in the contests, except that they actually kill the animal for money as apposed to harass it !?
In fact, this could be "illegal" (killing wildgame for $$$ and prizes) couldn't it ???
If it isn't, it should be IMO  !!!


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## discounthunter (Jun 12, 2006)

b2r you got me thinking and i do believe it is against the law to harrass wildlife.not sure which state these dingleberries are in but im sure there are similiar laws in effect?


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## camo93 (Jun 12, 2006)

Maybe, I don’t understand the issue but what’s the difference between GON truck-buck contest and what these guys are doing..

Help me understand..


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## jcarter (Jun 12, 2006)

i see nothing wrong with this. if you do, as some seem to, fight against it. write letters, make phone calls, do what you can to have it stopped. i dont see how you can condemn this and be ok with bass, flw tournaments or big buck tourneys or with any competition where sportsmen are rewarded for the amount or size of animal killed , caught, or captured.  i dont think i would ever get involved in this type of venture, but i do like to trophy hunt and fish. its not far removed from a lot of what goes on today in the professional world of hunting. all you guys that like to watch hunting videos are the ones that are inadvertantly promoting these types of ventures.


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## Flintlock1776 (Jun 12, 2006)

*G5 Backs out of World Hunting Association!!!!*

I was one to write to Polaris and g5, loks like the effort paid off!


WHA Statement
G5 Outdoors would like to formally announce that we are withdrawing our sponsorship of the World Hunting Association (WHA).

It was our intention to strengthen bow hunting’s foundation by broadening the appeal of archery to the public; however, based on communications, via email and phone, we have received from fellow bow hunters, we have come to the conclusion that the WHA is not the vehicle to achieve this end.

G5 would like to thank all those who have shared their thoughts, comments and concerns with us.


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## tearbritches (Jun 12, 2006)

j carter, you are dead right on this one. i ain't buying into any more commercialism...if i can help it!


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## MoeBirds (Jun 13, 2006)

jcarter said:
			
		

> i see nothing wrong with this. if you do, as some seem to, fight against it. write letters, make phone calls, do what you can to have it stopped. i dont see how you can condemn this and be ok with bass, flw tournaments or big buck tourneys or with any competition where sportsmen are rewarded for the amount or size of animal killed , caught, or captured.  i dont think i would ever get involved in this type of venture, but i do like to trophy hunt and fish. its not far removed from a lot of what goes on today in the professional world of hunting. all you guys that like to watch hunting videos are the ones that are inadvertantly promoting these types of ventures.



 Please let me explain where I find the difference between _this _and the other contests, you and others have posted about...

Big Buck Contests overall are kinda "iffy" (as to be included with these more extreme type contests), some admittedly are strictly based on who kills the biggest buck and I too find this troublesome.
 But there are a few, like GON's Truck Buck Contest, in which hunters who subscribe to the mag. go out and hunt wherever they live/lease and "if" they're _lucky_ enough to kill a whopper-buck and it scores high enough for that week, they are "entered" in the contest. 

The contest where you have to hit an egg with a pellet-gun from so many yards repeatedly till there's a winner of the truck !!!
It's all for fun, you don't win $$$ or prizes for killing the biggest deer, you win only by being able to shoot an egg !!

BRILLIANT  !!!

..... as far as BASS Tournaments well I think any comparison is laughable  ?! 
Catch and Release tournaments were designed to save the species from over-fishing, and besides we all know (except PETA) that fish can't feel pain  !?

Hunting stands by itself as a MULTI BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY and this does not escape the attention of whacky investors taking stabs at potentialy lucritive ventures, no matter how ill conceived, with little thought for the negative impact they might be on sportsmen. 
I don't believe any one action or even the suggested "watching of videos" can be blamed for these investors to come out  with these schemes.


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## TOW (Jun 13, 2006)

SADDADDY said:
			
		

> Sadly enough we done this to ourselves….
> QDM, Trophy management, better deer, bigger deer, bigger antlers, Big Buck competitions, Hunting Shows promoting and showing nothing but huge B&C or P&Y Class animals, companies competing against one another to corner the hunting market with new ideas and hunters wanting more for less….the list goes on but it all boils down to greed and minemineminemine! or memememememe! Mentality.



*BINGO!! GIVE THE MAN A CEEEGGGGAAAARRRR!*

We've done it to ourselves guys.

Antler worship and the resultuing commercialization of our "sport" will kill deer hunting.


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## TOW (Jun 13, 2006)

Online poll at ESPN.

Bottom right of page..

http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/index


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## GeauxLSU (Jun 13, 2006)

TOW said:
			
		

> Online poll at ESPN.
> 
> Bottom right of page..
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/index


Currently 56 to 44 percent in favor.


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## nwgahunter (Jun 13, 2006)

I voted no!

What is the effect of shooting a deer with an arrow going 260 + fps? That's got to screw one up if you miss hit one and break it's leg. I don't like it. Plus you could break a rib if you miss the muscle. Read an article a while back about people shooting elk with blunts for fun out of season and REALLY messing them up. Besides, I imagine they would aim for the rump?  

That'll teach someone new to the sport where the kill zone is for sure?


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## elfiii (Jun 13, 2006)

Don't know about anybody else, but I'm not pulling the trigger (release or firearm) on anything that's not going in my freezer.

Why take the risk of injuring the animal?


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## nwgahunter (Jun 13, 2006)

elfiii said:
			
		

> Don't know about anybody else, but I'm not pulling the trigger (release or firearm) on anything that's not going in my freezer.
> 
> Why take the risk of injuring the animal?



 EXACTLY MY POINT!!!!!!!!!! Oh Yeah! and injuring them on purpose! That's a better idea!


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## reylamb (Jun 13, 2006)

Let's for one second put aside the fact that using chemical tipped weapons is illegal in 49 of 50 states on public land (unless behind some high fences in some states), that said chemicals are a controlled substance, that it is all about stroking egos and making money, consider the side arguments here.

1.  What are the effects on the animal long-term?  Deer do not handle stress very well.
2.  Is this the proper way to promote hunting?  
3.  Is this hunting?
4.  Does this add fuel to the anti-hunting fire? 
5. Does this promote conservation? 

Comparing it to fishing is an apples to oranges comparison.  In fishing it is possible to overfish the resource and destroy or very seriously deplete the resource.  In hunting, without killing to manage the herd the herd would eventually destroy itself through starvation and disease.

Ultimately, hunting comes down to killing.  For years we have been combating the anti-agenda that says hunters are only out to pump their chest, stroke their ego, get the biggest horns, etc.  The anti-crowd for years has said that hunters are not about managing the resource, but rather about getting trophies.  This promotes hunting how?

I have already had conversations with 3 of my neighbors that have heard about this on ESPN.  All 3 have said, here you go, here is a way to hunt without killing anything.  Yes indeed, this is promoting hunting.

As for the poll on ESPN.  It is at best questionable.  If you delete cookies or disable your cookies you can vote as much and as often as you want.  No control there from ESPN.  The numbers are going everywhere.  It started out 85% against, then 50%, then down to 30%, then down to 25% and now back to almost 50-50..........

For what it is worth, and for the record.  I am adamently against the GON truck buck contest.  Unfortunately, P&Y is partially to blame through no fault of their own.  Their record book began as a way for an organization to show detailed records to wildlife agencies that bowhunting was a viable way to control deer populations.  It is now so far from what it began that I can only imagine that Mr. St. Charles would frown upon the organization if he were around today.


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## GeauxLSU (Jun 13, 2006)

elfiii said:
			
		

> Don't know about anybody else, but I'm not pulling the trigger (release or firearm) on anything that's not going in my freezer.
> 
> Why take the risk of injuring the animal?


Yotes!


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## Mechanicaldawg (Jun 13, 2006)

reylamb,

Excellent post!


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## elfiii (Jun 13, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Yotes!



OK, with the exception of predators.


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## Junebug (Jun 13, 2006)

*Question.*

I remember a saying:
We don't hunt to kill - we kill (occasionally) to have hunted.

Hunters I know don't care to, want to, or expect to kill something everytime they go.  But if there were NEVER any intent to occasionally harvest something, can you still call it hunting?

Is it really hunting if there is no intent to kill?


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## patchestc (Jun 13, 2006)

never point a gun or bow at anything you don't intend to kill.  i want no part of catch and release hunting.


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## Glenn (Jun 13, 2006)

For alot more information on contacts etc...

Please go to www.tradgang.com and go to the Pow Wow section you will see the posting.


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## Flintlock1776 (Jun 13, 2006)

*Catch & release Deer Hunting????????*



			
				elfiii said:
			
		

> Don't know about anybody else, but I'm not pulling the trigger (release or firearm) on anything that's not going in my freezer.
> 
> Why take the risk of injuring the animal?



This CEO must be feeling the heat. He posted this lame garbage on his site, He still does not "get it"

Fromavid Farbman, Commissioner and CEO
Date:June 12, 2006
Re:World Hunting Association

Dear fellow hunters:

I want to personally welcome you to the WHA, a new professional competitive world tour designed by hunters, for hunters. I have been an avid hunter for more than 20 years and have hunted with nearly every weapon. Hunting is my passion, and I am now dedicating my life to the sport. In addition, our team and supporters are largely comprised of experienced and passionate hunters.

The World Hunting Association intends to expand the next generation of hunters and hunting fans by showcasing the true essence of hunting and by offering exciting and educational content to provide more people facts about hunting. We are also creating a foundation which will donate to charitable and non-profit organizations that help enhance hunting, such as venison donation charities, and that offer hunting trips to those who are critically ill or less privileged.

Many people are very interested in finding out more details on the WHA and how we will achieve our goals.

Over the coming months, we will unveil:

•Details about the competitions and tournament format.

•The darting process and procedures, including the recovery, release and treatment process.

•Exciting features on the full-scale, interactive worldhunt.com website.

•The positive impact the WHA will have on conservation, including aging of animals, vaccinations against widespread disease found in deer herds, and other valuable scientific and wildlife impacts.

•Valuable tips relating to deer management and crop management.

•The culling process that we use to thin the herd in a responsible and educated manner (taking place outside of the tournament format).

•The hunting-related charitable organizations that will be the recipients of WHA donations.

Let’s face it: our sport could use a “shot in the arm.” The number of licensed hunters has been declining for years and many people view hunters and hunting in an inaccurate and unflattering way.

It’s time to improve that image and show the world the complexity, skill, and strategy that is the core
of hunting.

While additional details of the WHA will be disclosed in the coming months, I want you to understand some of the core elements of the competitions:

•Although, for purposes of broadening viewership, the competition will be based on “non-fatal” hunting, we completely support harvest hunting.

•The WHA competition will focus on many of the same skills required in harvest hunting, including scents, positioning, scent elimination, stand strategies, gauging and playing the wind, and many other practices.

•The scoring system will reward competitors for their hunting skill. While the animals will not die, the hunt itself will be challenging and intense.

•To preserve ecology, the animals will be given certain vaccinations and will have blood work completed immediately by a licensed veterinarian; animals will be marked and not shot twice in a competition.

Now is the time for all hunters to stand together, shoulder to shoulder. While new ideas and change can sometimes be uncomfortable, this is a great opportunity for hunters to elevate the sport, clear up misconceptions, and expand the next generation of hunters.

Let us unite as hunters and work together to grow the sport. I welcome your feedback and suggestions as we are building the tour. Please send feedback to commissioner@worldhunt.com. When we launch the first event in the fall, it will be our tour, designed especially for hunters like us.
We should all be proud.


Sincerely,


David Farbman
Commissioner and CEO, WHA




 G5 has already pulled their sponsorship. Mathews Bow has said they will NOT be affiliated with this nor any of their staff. If you feel like me: OK folks, here is the deal. Every time he links some poor fool sponsor, let's nail 'em with emails to end this deal. Spread the word on other forums. As a cable subscriber I'll also be sending emails to any channel that puts on hunting & fishing shows to make sure they "get it". Let us do our best to make sure this concept does not even get one show "in the can". We all need to start an email campaign and get the word out to our other hunting forums! Let us stick to it and win!!


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## Glenn (Jun 13, 2006)

There seems to be some more bad news coming down the pike very soon. I will try and post it when and if I find out what it is.

There are some very big players in the fight now and it is turning into a legal battle also.I just glad we have hunters that care enough to spend their time and money to help out.

Fingers crossed!


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2006)

update...

Looks like the bad news is not so bad after all. Cabelas has came out and said they will and do not support the WHA and Bass Pro shops will be releasing their stance today or tommorow.

*We must stay on top of this for the tradition of hunting and for the respect and care of the wild game we pursue!*


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## nwgahunter (Jun 14, 2006)

*Let's keep it going!*



			
				Glenn said:
			
		

> update...
> 
> Looks like the bad news is not so bad after all. Cabelas has came out and said they will and do not support the WHA and Bass Pro shops will be releasing their stance today or tommorow.
> 
> *We must stay on top of this for the tradition of hunting and for the respect and care of the wild game we pursue!*


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## Jorge (Jun 14, 2006)

*I received an e-mail bulletin from SCI about this subject.*

Cut and pasted from SCI's e-mail:

SCI - First For Hunters 
In the Crosshairs -- e-news from SCI’s Washington Office 
The latest and hottest news on federal, state, and international 
political and conservation events    
June 14, 2006 

_*SCI Questions Concept of "World Hunting Association"*
The "World Hunting Association" last week announced that it would stage a series of "tournament" professional hunting events this year, in which the game pursued would be shot with tranquilizer darts launched from bow hunting equipment.  Participants would compete for much as $600,000 in prize money over the series of tournament events.  SCI has serious concerns with attempts to "professionalize" the tradition of the hunt, particularly with cash rewards.  In addition, the institution of "catch and release" tactics for hunting, using powerful sedatives, is highly questionable with regard to the future health of the game animals that are captured for the competition.  While the group espouses the noble goals of increasing hunter recruitment and retention, SCI believes that education and outreach programs remain the best option for bring newcomers into the field.  Likewise, SCI believes that conventional regulated hunting techniques, including due diligence on the part of hunters to prevent the wounding of game, are the only true definition of hunting.  SCI President Mike Simpson told Crosshairs that "Hunting isn't bass fishing.  It just doesn't translate to made-for-TV entertainment, conducted on a professional catch-and-release basis for cash rewards."_


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## Flintlock1776 (Jun 14, 2006)

*Think again*



			
				Woodswalker said:
			
		

> Geez, once again, we hunters find ourselves impaled on the horns of a dilemma.
> 
> i hope no lives are lost because of it.




No, the point is Hunting involves killing the game and drugging or any from of "catch & release" does not apply to deer hunting.


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## GeauxLSU (Jun 14, 2006)

*It just struck me as funny.*



			
				Jorge said:
			
		

> SCI believes that conventional regulated hunting techniques......


like shooting exotic animals over bait in a fenced enclosure





			
				Jorge said:
			
		

> ,are the only true definition of hunting.


Sorry Jorge, I couldn't resist.


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## GeauxLSU (Jun 14, 2006)

*Devil's advocate.*

By the way, how many times have we discussed here that hunting is NOT about killing?   
This is starting to get confusing.  

Let's assume these guys scout, place stands, improve the habitat, learn all about the animals they persue, teach others/new comers about it (apparently a big deal to them), chase their much smarter quarry in all sorts of inclimate weather etc., etc.  The ONLY difference is they shoot a dart, revive the animal and it goes on it's merry way.  Depending on the size they may win something.  
WE on the other hand, kill the the thing, hope to find it and hang it on the wall as our 'prize' or enter the truck buck contest and hope to win our week so we can have a chance to win a truck or just put the most expensive meat on the planet in the freezer.  
Help me out with the big difference again?  I got the killing part.  We kill 'em, they let 'em live (but probably also kill them when they hunt 'regular' for all we know).


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## Jorge (Jun 14, 2006)

Whatever Phil.  

I'm just passing on some information that others participating in this thread might find useful or interesting as it pertains to the topic of this thread.

While off topic, your comments do bring me back to this:



> 2). People (myself included) are real quick to Monday morning QB and jump to conclusions by filling in blanks when they were not asked to. I'm going to try and quit that one myself. Probably won't be successful though....



That did not last long. Think what you will about SCI and yourself. Others have different opinions. While some may spew pompous and pious rhetoric here in the name of hunting heritage (which generally ends up being a bunch of bunk and goes no further than here), I will continue putting my money and faith in SCI to protect my rights hunt the same as I put my money and faith in the NRA to protect my rights to own guns.


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## GeauxLSU (Jun 14, 2006)

Jorge,
It was a JOKE!  Didn't mean to attack the church of SCI!


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## reylamb (Jun 15, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> By the way, how many times have we discussed here that hunting is NOT about killing?
> This is starting to get confusing.
> 
> Let's assume these guys scout, place stands, improve the habitat, learn all about the animals they persue, teach others/new comers about it (apparently a big deal to them), chase their much smarter quarry in all sorts of inclimate weather etc., etc.  The ONLY difference is they shoot a dart, revive the animal and it goes on it's merry way.  Depending on the size they may win something.
> ...


What we do is legal.  Hunting with chemicals is not in 49 of 50 statest.  What we do keeps the herd in balance, shooting tranqs does not.

Furthermore, not all of us enter truck buck contests.  Some of us actually find that practice deplorable.


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## GeauxLSU (Jun 15, 2006)

reylamb said:
			
		

> What we do is legal.  Hunting with chemicals is not in 49 of 50 statest.  What we do keeps the herd in balance, shooting tranqs does not.
> 
> Furthermore, not all of us enter truck buck contests.  Some of us actually find that practice deplorable.


Rey,
I assume everyone of these guys also hunts (as we define it).  I also assume they are not going to do something illegal.  If it's illegal to dart game then they obviously will not get away with it.  Legality is NOT the issue, I assume, for this discussion.  If that is what everyone is hot and bothered by, I'm in.  I will not support ANY illegal activity. 
I believe some are just shocked that people would consider darting game a 'sport'.  I also assume they thing this puts 'regular hunting' in a bad light.  My only point is, those folks need to wake up.  We have MUCH bigger problems.  If the same outrage and energy that is apparently being spent on this bizarre practice was spent on cleaning up our own ranks, we'd be LIGHT YEARS ahead in both image and tangible progress of where we'd be simply by stopping some idiots from darting deer.


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## reylamb (Jun 15, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Rey,
> I assume everyone of these guys also hunts (as we define it).  I also assume they are not going to do something illegal.  If it's illegal to dart game then they obviously will not get away with it.  Legality is NOT the issue, I assume, for this discussion.  If that is what everyone is hot and bothered by, I'm in.  I will not support ANY illegal activity.
> I believe some are just shocked that people would consider darting game a 'sport'.  I also assume they thing this puts 'regular hunting' in a bad light.  My only point is, those folks need to wake up.  We have MUCH bigger problems.  If the same outrage and energy that is apparently being spent on this bizarre practice was spent on cleaning up our own ranks, we'd be LIGHT YEARS ahead in both image and tangible progress of where we'd be simply by stopping some idiots from darting deer.


True, but there are other issues here.  It is being promoted to non-hunters as a viable alternative to hunting.  Is this not fodder to the anti-hunters to promote that which we have been fighting for years, ie non-lethal hunting?  

While hunting is not completely about the kill, let's not fool ourselves.  If at some point something is not killed are we really hunting or are we observing?  If something is not eventually killed are we properly managing the resource?  For decades we have used herd management as one of our top defenses against the onslaught of attacks from PETA.  We have used that as a defense and justification for hunting against their cries of hunters are only bloodthirsty, our for their ego, only in it for the horns, etc.  This practice of non-lethal hunting only feeds their arguments and does nothing to promote hunting as herd control.  Why hide from the non-hunters what hunting is, the only effective tool for managing the deer herd, turkey numbers, coyotes or whatever is being hunted?

This week alone I have had this discussion with several non-hunters that have read about this on ESPN's website.  They have said, "hey Jeff, we read how you can now hunt without killing, we think it is a great idea."  I see nothing positive about this in any way shape or form.

Hunting for me is not a competition.  It is not about my ego.  It is not about making money.  I find deer competitions in bad taste and deplorable.  Not just this particular competition, but all of them, including the disgrace that is the GON truck buck.  On a side note, I blame all of this on P&Y and B&C, but that is a soap box for another day.

The legality of the practice has not been resolved at this point in time.  Michigan DNR is currently reviewing this proposal.  While the deer are behind a high fence, the general hunting regulations still apply, and chemical tipped arrows are illegal in Michigan.  Ultimately it will be the lawyers and a judge that determine if this gets off the ground.  It is not illegal to discuss tranq'ing deer.  What will probably happen is charges will be brought when the first deer is darted.  Heck, they have not even gotten into the discussion of the chemical agents themselves are a controlled substance, just wait until that can of worms is opened.


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## GeauxLSU (Jun 15, 2006)

Rey,
Appreciate the thoughts.  Where is it being promoted as a 'viable alternative to hunting'.  I guess it's how you definite it right?  For some, I guess it is a 'viable alternative'.  
In any case, non hunters advocating darting deer is, or has no where near, the damaging impact to traditional hunting as does their (non hunters) view of shooting exotics over bait in fences.  Not sure how shooting an African plains animal in a fence in Texas is 'managing the herd', but I realize others may view it differently, that's fine.  Like I said, I applaud everyone's activism.  It's refreshing to see.  I just wish it was more broad based, more consistent, more objective and less emotional just because it's something new.  Lest someone misunderstand, the practive sounds stupid to me.  I'm not worry about stupid, I'm worried about detrimental.


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## Vlad (Jun 15, 2006)

*Whhhooaaaaaaa!*

Watch the video intro...after the "CEO" comes on and does his "WWF" challenge thing...watch the bow hunter....he spots a big buck.....waits.....and CLOSES HIS EYES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.


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## GeauxLSU (Jun 15, 2006)

Vlad said:
			
		

> Watch the video intro...after the "CEO" comes on and does his "WWF" challenge thing...watch the bow hunter....he spots a big buck.....waits.....and CLOSES HIS EYES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.


I noticed that too but I think it's because he goes into the 'dream sequence' that follows about the big check etc....  
Doesn't he then open his eyes and shoot the dart?  
Regardless, it is sort of comical.


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## reylamb (Jun 15, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Rey,
> 
> In any case, non hunters advocating darting deer is, or has no where near, the damaging impact to traditional hunting as does their (non hunters) view of shooting exotics over bait in fences.  Not sure how shooting an African plains animal in a fence in Texas is 'managing the herd', but I realize others may view it differently, that's fine.  Like I said, I applaud everyone's activism.  It's refreshing to see.  I just wish it was more broad based, more consistent, more objective and less emotional just because it's something new.  Lest someone misunderstand, the practive sounds stupid to me.  I'm not worry about stupid, I'm worried about detrimental.


Last I checked non-hunters make up the vast majority of voters, if they advocate dartin instead of killing...............................


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## GeauxLSU (Jun 15, 2006)

*Just not worried about it.*



			
				reylamb said:
			
		

> Last I checked non-hunters make up the vast majority of voters, if they advocate dartin instead of killing...............................


Yes I agree.  But I think I'm going to change my opinion of their impact since they are apparently very ineffective at getting their desires legislated.  They are basically categorically opposed to hunting inside fences and over bait...


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## patchestc (Jun 15, 2006)

I guess if that's what u want to do, it should be legal, but
speaking for myself, I don't want any part of it.  Kinda like
running deer with dogs, or trapping, or fishing with live bait, if that's what u want, go ahead, it's just not for me.


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## MoeBirds (Jun 15, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> In any case, non hunters advocating darting deer is, or has no where near, the damaging impact to traditional hunting as does their (non hunters) view of shooting exotics over bait in fences.  Not sure how shooting an African plains animal in a fence in Texas is 'managing the herd', but I realize others may view it differently, that's fine.  Like I said, I applaud everyone's activism.  It's refreshing to see.  I just wish it was more broad based, more consistent, more objective and less emotional just because it's something new.  Lest someone misunderstand, the practive sounds stupid to me.  I'm not worry about stupid, I'm worried about detrimental.



I feel this particular venture; darting of deer, the way it's being $old, if successfully put out on the air Nationaly, could be detrimental to traditional hunting as well. 

I hear ya about the highfences and baiting, infact I think this may even take place in a highfence ?!
....since it's in Michigan , "_The Highfence Capitol of the World"_ !!??
...So it's a double whammy for objection !?

I'm equally apposed to highfenced shoots, baiting, and now....."darting for cash and prizes" !!!

I also, as mentioned earlier find these Drury/Cambell videotapes where they compete to kill the biggest buck on camera for cash and prizes deplorable  !? 

It's ALL STUPID !!!!...and deserving of a good fight !!

Come on Phil, we need someone like you behind us on this thing !!!

ps. the SCI barb was hysterical !!


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## GeauxLSU (Jun 15, 2006)

Bound2Ramble said:
			
		

> infact I think this may even take place in a highfence ?!


 It does.


			
				Bound2Ramble said:
			
		

> I'm equally apposed to highfenced shoots, baiting, and now....."darting for cash and prizes" !!!


I'm opposed to all of it as well but I wouldn't say equally.  


			
				B2R said:
			
		

> ps. the SCI barb was hysterical !!


I thought so to, but apparently not.  They can get sensitive about that stuff!


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## holadude (Jun 15, 2006)

Is it at all possible that the WHA is a covert campaign that was started by the anti-hunting organizations? It is such a blatently attroucious idea that it will never get off its feet, but in the meantime, our image as ethical hunters is tarnished. All the average non-hunter will hear about it is, "The hunters shoot the animals for fun and then let them go after the drugs wear off." That will definitely create a negative stereotype of us.
We are the ones fightng the fire, but also the ones that will be ultimately blamed. I think we've been framed! It is odd that I have not heard a peep out of PeTA or HSUS about this. They should be screaming, but they're not. They are purposly waiting until it gets out of control, then they will step in and declare themselves, "Heroes".


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## Flintlock1776 (Jun 17, 2006)

*Bass Pro says NO   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.CFPage?appID=34&template=news_display.cfm&newsID=179


Alright!!!  When the Big Box stores tell their vendors they are against it, how many sponsors are going to ignore that?

Hopefully, the WHA will be DOA soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Flintlock1776 (Jun 18, 2006)

*I think you have something there!*



			
				holadude said:
			
		

> Is it at all possible that the WHA is a covert campaign that was started by the anti-hunting organizations? It is such a blatently attroucious idea that it will never get off its feet, but in the meantime, our image as ethical hunters is tarnished. All the average non-hunter will hear about it is, "The hunters shoot the animals for fun and then let them go after the drugs wear off." That will definitely create a negative stereotype of us.
> We are the ones fightng the fire, but also the ones that will be ultimately blamed. I think we've been framed! It is odd that I have not heard a peep out of PeTA or HSUS about this. They should be screaming, but they're not. They are purposly waiting until it gets out of control, then they will step in and declare themselves, "Heroes".



<eom>


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## Son (Jun 21, 2006)

*Our worse enemy?*

You may say shame on me, but I've never bought a hunting or fishing video. Won one bass tournament in 1954, but my day entered me in it. That was before tournaments as we know them today. I don't fish tournaments even though I'm an accomplished bass fisherman living on Lake Seminole. I don't buy scents, camo, hunting gadgets etc.. although I have a few camo clothes given to me. A few free hats. Might say I just don't cater to the commercial side of our outdoor pursuits. I do buy good hunting equipment such as, bows, guns, boots, blinds and good food. 
I don't agree with catch and release hunting. Our hunting as we've known it in the past has already gone down the tubes somewhat. Not arguing with anybody, just stating my opinion.


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## Flintlock1776 (Jun 28, 2006)

*Bowhunt Magazine backs out of WHA!! GOOD!!*

Saw this on another forum, hopefully this stuid drug deer contest will die before launch:

Bowhunt America's stance on the WHA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just spoke with Bill Krenz, owner/editor of BH AM. He informed me that there will be one Ad in I believe the Whitetail spcl, that cannot be pulled. They do not support the WHA.
He also said the WHA paid for a years worth of ads but wouldnt reveal what they were all about as it was wanted to be a "surprise". The WHA was refunded appropriate $ and was dropped. Mr. Krenz stated he felt duped into a bad position by haveing the true nature of the WHA concealed from him.
Having to hide the facts of your orginization in order to get publicity is yet another indicator of just how BAD an idea this is!


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## JBowers (Jun 30, 2006)

Flintlock1776 said:
			
		

> Saw this on another forum, hopefully this stuid drug deer contest will die before launch:
> 
> Bowhunt America's stance on the WHA
> 
> ...


 
I've heard from a few other organizations that were supposedly duped as well.  The story you provided was almost word for word!

I don't think this one we hunters should let pass w/o sharing our voices to David Farbman at commissioner@worldhunt.com.

Like other bad ideas, I couldn't help but notice their claims for helping "children" & "the disabled", and the typical call to stand united, "shoulder to shoulder".  Unfortunately, those have become buzz words that require further investigation.  Somehow, I doubt that there will be many "world-class" hunters from Woody's offered an invitation.


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## JBowers (Jun 30, 2006)

Son said:
			
		

> You may say shame on me, but I've never bought a hunting or fishing video. I don't buy scents, camo, hunting gadgets etc.. although I have a few camo clothes given to me. A few free hats. Might say I just don't cater to the commercial side of our outdoor pursuits. I do buy good hunting equipment such as, bows, guns, boots, blinds and good food.
> I don't agree with catch and release hunting. Our hunting as we've known it in the past has already gone down the tubes somewhat. Not arguing with anybody, just stating my opinion.


 
Son,

While it is most probable that we will not agree on everything, it seems you and I may have alot in common!  I haven't bought a thread of camo in over 12 years!  I don't buy gadgets.  And I like your post!

I would like to share this quote with all:

"If one were to present the hunter with the death of an animal as a gift he would refuse hit.  What he is after is having to win it, to conquer the surly brute through his own effort and skill with all the extras that this carries with: the immersion in the countryside, the healthfulness of the exercise, the distracdtion from his job, and so on and so forth."  In summation, "...one does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted."  Thanks to an intuitive and insightful Spanish hunter and philosopher!


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## treedawg (Jun 30, 2006)

I'm not sure you feel about this but I can tell you given a choice I'd much rather take my chances being shot with a tranquilizer dart over a 30-06.

This is strictly a guess but one can assume the the survival rate of a deer shot with a tranquilizer would  be 99% or greater. The survival rate of a deer with a well placed shot from a 30-06 is nill.

There's always a chance the deer shot with the tranquilizer can pass on his genes and be harvested again. The same can't be said for the deer that was shot with the -06.

I think the concept behind the WHA is silly to say the least but who am I to condemn the next guy if that's his cup of tea.

I think we as "hunters" spend entirely to much time worrying about the activities on our neighbor's side of the fence. I don't know about y'all but I have enough to worry about on my side of the fence.

TD


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## OkieHunter (Jun 30, 2006)

PETA is going to tear them a new one and all hunters are going to take the hit, and we as hunters do not need this kind of problem.


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## whitworth (Jul 2, 2006)

*Last I heard. . .*

hunters never signed a peace treaty.  Heck, it's hard enough to get them at peace on a piece of leased deer land.  

And don't ever attempt to have them agree on the best weapon to use for a hunt.


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## Flintlock1776 (Jul 7, 2006)

*Eastman Outdoors / Gorrila Tree Stand against WHA*

Saw this on another forum. Long read but tons of facts to support the closing of the insane "World Hunting Association"

Worth the time to read the entire post

http://mossyoak.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=4134

That's the fact jack!


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