# Relevance with revelation



## StriperAddict (Sep 26, 2019)

Christianity isn't Judaism Part 2, and it's not mixed with Judaism. It's not Judeo-Christianity. The Old Covenant, upon which Judaism is based, led *to* the New Covenant. At that point, the Old Covenant was made *obsolete.* (Hebrews 8:13). Notice that Hebrews doesn't say that it became part of the New Covenant, or the basis for the New Covenant. It was made *obsolete,* and "growing old" and "ready to vanish away."

Something that is old and ready to vanish away doesn't get mixed in with something new! (Something about new wine and old wineskins?).  No, they don't mix at all. Out with the Old and in with the New. It's a brand new life, not an old dead religion!

From Joel Breseke


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 26, 2019)

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Romans 11:19
You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."

What does or how does Romans 11 bring it all together? It seems to be addressing Gentiles becoming member to the Commonwealth of Israel through a grafting.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 26, 2019)

I understand and can see that the Old Covenant is gone, but reading Romans 11, I still see some form of Judeo-Christianity.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 26, 2019)

StriperAddict said:


> Christianity isn't Judaism Part 2, and it's not mixed with Judaism. It's not Judeo-Christianity. The Old Covenant, upon which Judaism is based, led *to* the New Covenant. At that point, the Old Covenant was made *obsolete.* (Hebrews 8:13). Notice that Hebrews doesn't say that it became part of the New Covenant, or the basis for the New Covenant. It was made *obsolete,* and "growing old" and "ready to vanish away."
> 
> Something that is old and ready to vanish away doesn't get mixed in with something new! (Something about new wine and old wineskins?).  No, they don't mix at all. Out with the Old and in with the New. It's a brand new life, not an old dead religion!
> 
> From Joel Breseke



That doesn't mean that the laws were done away.  If that were the case, Jesus would have said he came to do away with the law.  Instead, He said he came to fulfill the law. and not a jot or tiddle would pass from the law until all things were fulfilled.

Isn't that why in 2 Peter, Chapter 2, he tells us all about the condemnation that people are heaping upon themselves because they are breaking the laws concerning sexual sins?


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 26, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> I understand and can see that the Old Covenant is gone, but reading Romans 11, I still see some from of Judeo-Christianity.



I think we confuse what the old covenant was, and what was really made obsolete. 

The law was not the covenant.  It was the rules to live by.  The covenant was that God would forgive sins if you followed certain practices of sacrifice and purification.  Not that this is the only covenant that God made, but it is the major one that was done away with at Christ's death.

God is a God of covenants.  He made one with Abraham.  Another with Moses.  He has made a covenant with us also


----------



## StriperAddict (Sep 26, 2019)

The law was given so that it would show our sinfulness. But we have died to the law through the body of Christ, in His death and in His resurrection. 
When the Commandment came, sin revives and I die. The law was given through Moses, but Grace and Truth are from Jesus Christ. Big difference between the two. 

The love affair with Moses it's not the motivation anymore, or should it be. Most of the church is just not getting this. Sorry if this looks controversial but it is the cross and resurrection that brings new life and birth, making us new creations.  The law of Moses just stirs up the sin which indwells our unredeemed bodies into action. Trusting in Jesus and depending on him are the power to keep sin and the flesh influences at bay.  A crucial understanding, which also gives relevance to Rom 8:1 ... there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ.  A past perfect work makes this a present reality.

Christ came to give us new life, this is the bringing in of the new hope - something that the law of sin and death can never do.  

We have a choice to accept what the cross and Resurrection did for us and did to us, or go back to Moses as the means by which we have righteousness.
As a friend often rightly says, Flirting with Moses is cheating on Jesus.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 26, 2019)

StriperAddict said:


> The law was given so that it would show our sinfulness.


Yes,  The law is death, but grace thru Christ is life everlasting.



> But we have died to the law through the body of Christ, in His death and in His resurrection.



But the Law is not dead.  It is still there, heaping condemnation on the fallen, whether angels or humans. It is there to point the direction of travel for us, and to let us know if we are not heading in the right paths



> The love affair with Moses it's not the motivation anymore, or should it be. Most of the church is just not getting this. Sorry if this looks controversial but it is the cross and resurrection that brings new life and birth, making us new creations.


You need to read 2 Peter 1 and 2 Peter 2.  In 1 Peter, he talks about how if we draw near to God we can never fall, but the theme of 2 Peter is how the law is still there as a standard for all to be judged.  Peter is using a carrot in the first chapter to try to convince people of the rewards of following God, but in chapter 2, he is warning them that there is a rod of punishment if they don't heed the law.



> The law of Moses just stirs up the sin which indwells our unredeemed bodies into action.



the law does not stir up anything.  It is a measurement tool or a plumb line.  It points to truth.



> Trusting in Jesus and depending on him are the power to keep sin and the flesh influences at bay.  A crucial understanding, which also gives relevance to Rom 8:1 ... there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ.  A past perfect work makes this a present reality.



yes, this is the truth that 2 Peter Chapter 1 teaches.  That as we seek and draw near to God, we will not fall into sin and the temptations that our flesh desires, we will not obey those temptations.




> Christ came to give us new life, this is the bringing in of the new hope - something that the law of sin and death can never do.



A HEARTY AMEN!



> We have a choice to accept what the cross and Resurrection did for us and did to us, or go back to Moses as the means by which we have righteousness.
> As a friend often rightly says, Flirting with Moses is cheating on Jesus.



I am not saying we need to go back to the covenant that Moses at all.  What I am saying is the Law is still the standard by which the unrepentant will be judged.  The Law did not cease to exist because of Christ. In fact, Jesus gave us an even harder law to follow....  Love the Lord your God will ALL your heart, and your neighbor as yourself.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 26, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I think we confuse what the old covenant was, and what was really made obsolete.
> 
> The law was not the covenant.  It was the rules to live by.  The covenant was that God would forgive sins if you followed certain practices of sacrifice and purification.  Not that this is the only covenant that God made, but it is the major one that was done away with at Christ's death.
> 
> God is a God of covenants.  He made one with Abraham.  Another with Moses.  He has made a covenant with us also



Romans 9:4
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.

Romans 11:27
And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

I'm still a bit confuse as to what was made obsolete vs what Jesus fulfilled.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 26, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 9:4
> the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
> 
> Romans 11:27
> ...



I am not sure why you are using Romans 9 in this context.  Paul is speaking of his turmoil over the jewish nation not accepting Christ.

9 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen 

Romans 11:26-27 is a quotation from Isaiah 59.  As Paul says in vs 25 I believe... As it is written.... then in vs 26 starts quoting Is. 59:20.

The covenant that God made with Moses thru the law was the covenant of forgiveness of sins thru obedience and sacrifice.  This is the covenant that was superseded by the sacrifice of Christ.  As Paul says in Heb 10:26.. if we continue to knowingly continue in sin, there is not another sacrifice that will cover those sins.

New Living Translation
Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. 

To continue in known sin and try to justify our lifestyle choices in spite of the teachings of the Bible is a weighty matter.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Sep 27, 2019)

I think the referring to the law... is the 10 commandments, not the rituals that they adopted. Thus, those in Christ are not governed any longer by the law, but rather by the spirit. And if by the spirit, then those laws will not be broken.


----------



## Madman (Sep 27, 2019)

StriperAddict said:


> The love affair with Moses it's not the motivation anymore, or should it be. Most of the church is just not getting this. Sorry if this looks controversial but it is the cross and resurrection that brings new life and birth, making us new creations.



what is the evidence of this?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 27, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> I think the referring to the law... is the 10 commandments, not the rituals that they adopted. Thus, those in Christ are not governed any longer by the law, but rather by the spirit. And if by the spirit, then those laws will not be broken.


What did Jesus mean when he said he didn't come to abolish the Law but fulfill it?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 27, 2019)

Matthew 5:18
  18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

or "Till all is fulfilled."
The "all things" in both cases are the great facts of our Lord's life, death, resurrection, and the establishment of the kingdom of God.

Perhaps Jesus has accomplished what he came to accomplish and therefore fulfilled the Law. Jesus does not nullify it, but came so that everything in it will be accomplished.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 27, 2019)

Romans 10:4-5
For Christ _is_ the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5For concerning the righteousness that is by the Law, Moses writes: “The man who does these things will live by them.” 

That option is still available if anyone want to try it.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 27, 2019)

"Heaven and Earth" have passed!


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Sep 27, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> What did Jesus mean when he said he didn't come to abolish the Law but fulfill it?


i think he meant that life in the spirit fulfilled [always does] the law. It's like I told my wife. i would never cheat on her because of my beliefs, yet love trumps my beliefs. This is now why I would never cheat on her. yet... is both does the same


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Sep 27, 2019)

A verse to look at... can't remember... If the gentiles, who by nature  obey the law... I had better go look


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Sep 27, 2019)

13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous. 14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, 15since they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them.


----------



## StriperAddict (Sep 27, 2019)

Madman said:


> what is the evidence of this?


_Frequent personal observation._

Been to several meetings where guilt, not the Spirit of God, is the motivation for works of righteousness. Rare indeed to hear a sermon on Galatians 5:18 ! ...  _But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. _

The teaching of depending on what Christ has done for AND to a believer in raising them to new life - and the subsequent fruit which follows - is nearly left out or practically anathema in churches today. Any fruit of the Spirit comes from grace thru faith ... a needed revelation today, and a motivating mind renewal truth of our identity in Christ.


----------



## StriperAddict (Sep 27, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 10:4-5
> For Christ _is_ the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5For concerning the righteousness that is by the Law, Moses writes: “The man who does these things will live by them.”
> 
> That option is still available if anyone want to try it.



Scripture goes on to say that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. The law is SO PERFECT that not a man on earth save the Son of Man Himself, fulfilled the righteous requirement of it, therefore it is a curse to fallen, sinful man.

And that's the point, the law "made nothing, or no man perfect", its design was meant to lead convicted sinners away from Moses into the grace and mercy of Christ.

Romans 3:21 says that APART from the law the righteousness of God has been brought fourth or manifested.  If we are indwelt of Christ by faith in the finished work of the cross and resurrection, then we have His righteousness by grace thru faith.
It's a better one, surpassing that of the Pharisees, because it is NOT from ourselves or our religious self-effort.  It's a gift of mercy and grace.


----------



## StriperAddict (Sep 27, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> New Living Translation
> Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.
> 
> To continue in known sin and try to justify our lifestyle choices in spite of the teachings of the Bible is a weighty matter.



Here's an encouraging message for believers about the difficult Heb 10 passage (vs 26-31).


----------



## StriperAddict (Sep 27, 2019)

An encouraging recap:


"As long as we think of sin...

as the breaking of a moral standard,

a law...

or a commandment,

instead of an inner power...

which induces us to attempt life...

apart from God...

and His grace,

disconnected,

we will exalt moral compliance...
as the goal of life,
guaranteeing our frustration,

and miss the One who is Life,
and who happily takes up residence within us."

~ Ralph Harris


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 27, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> "Heaven and Earth" have passed!



strange.  I live on earth, and I will live in Heaven one day.  How could I if they have passed away


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 27, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> strange.  I live on earth, and I will live in Heaven one day.  How could I if they have passed away


If they haven't, that means the Law will be in place even after we live in Heaven one day.  Heaven will never pass in that sense and thus neither the Law.

If the Law hasn't passed, what parts do we keep?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 27, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> strange.  I live on earth, and I will live in Heaven one day.  How could I if they have passed away


I remember having this discussion years ago on this forum. Heaven and earth must pass when all is fulfilled. Perhaps when all was fulfilled on the Cross, the Law was fulfilled. Maybe it was the destruction of Israel, so Heaven and earth was Old Israel. It could also mean the temple destruction. Jesus replaced the old temple. His temple arose in three days.

Matthew 24:34-35
34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Did that generation not see it pass?


----------



## StriperAddict (Sep 29, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> If they haven't, that means the Law will be in place even after we live in Heaven one day.  Heaven will never pass in that sense and thus neither the Law.
> 
> If the Law hasn't passed, what parts do we keep?


Sin takes it's opportunity thru the law as we strive to "keep" it.
Consider: Rom 7:8 ...  8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [a]coveting of every kind; for apart [b]from the Law sin _is_ dead. 

Rom 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be_ *joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God*_*. *

You're under grace, not the judicial requirement of the Mosaic law. 
Believers abiding in Christ will show the fruit of the Spirit, not the striving to reach the 613 commandments of the law. 
The law does not impart life, Christ does.
The law cannot make us perfect (as in complete, lacking nothing for life and godliness) but Christ did, sacrificing Himself and rising from death.

Life is the benefit of the cross and resurrection.
Death is the outcome of the law.  

Check the link below below Art. The first 5 min of this program answers your law concerns:
AFM Call In/Meaning of the law. 
or click:
https://subspla.sh/hzhgzxq


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 29, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> I remember having this discussion years ago on this forum. Heaven and earth must pass when all is fulfilled. Perhaps when all was fulfilled on the Cross, the Law was fulfilled. Maybe it was the destruction of Israel, so Heaven and earth was Old Israel. It could also mean the temple destruction. Jesus replaced the old temple. His temple arose in three days.
> 
> Matthew 24:34-35
> 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
> ...



context man... context.  What generation is he talking about?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 29, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> context man... context.  What generation is he talking about?


Matthew 16:28
"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 30, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 16:28
> "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."



why would you go to Matt 16 to find the generation he is speaking of in Matt 24?

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

the things that will be fulfilled are in red.  The generation that will see it is in purple.  

Now, we just need to figure out what the fig tree represents and what the putting on of leaves means about the fig tree.

and no, all this did not happen in 70ad.  I don't recall all of his elect being gathered from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other during that timeframe


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 30, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> why would you go to Matt 16 to find the generation he is speaking of in Matt 24?
> 
> 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
> 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
> ...



I was thinking it was all one account.  So which one is the future account and which one has already happened?

Matthew 16:27 
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. 

Matthew 24:16 
then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.


----------



## Spineyman (Oct 1, 2019)

* Revelation 1 *
*Introduction and Benediction*
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show *His servants*—*things which must shortly take place.*


----------



## Spineyman (Oct 1, 2019)

That is why it was written and here is who it was written to:

* Revelation 1:2-4 *
2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.  3 Blessed _is_ he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, *and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.*

*Greeting the Seven Churches*

4 *John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:*
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,


----------



## Madman (Oct 2, 2019)

StriperAddict said:


> _Frequent personal observation._
> 
> Been to several meetings where guilt, not the Spirit of God, is the motivation for works of righteousness. Rare indeed to hear a sermon on Galatians 5:18 ! ...  _But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. _
> 
> The teaching of depending on what Christ has done for AND to a believer in raising them to new life - and the subsequent fruit which follows - is nearly left out or practically anathema in churches today. Any fruit of the Spirit comes from grace thru faith ... a needed revelation today, and a motivating mind renewal truth of our identity in Christ.


Sorry to hear that.   It is the job of the Church to teach and edify the saints.  Our church does an excellent job.


----------



## StriperAddict (Oct 6, 2019)

This adds an application aka "living in faith response" to post 1 and some other notes here:
==================

When Paul said, "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ" (Rom 1:16), he wasn't talking about not being ashamed to live righteously and morally in a world full of sinful people. In his life before Christ, Paul already had confidence in his fleshly abilities to live righteously and morally... and that is what he said he had to count as cow dung so that he could embrace the true gospel!

In order for Paul to be "found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is by faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith" (Phil 3:9), Paul had to chuck aside any and all of his sense of his own righteousness and morality according to the law, which would have been a major deviation from his previous stance in life and from what his Jewish brothers expected of him.

It is this 180° turn that Paul was not ashamed of! It wasn't a turn from unrighteous living to righteous living that Paul was now standing for. It was a turn from trusting in righteous living to trusting in Christ alone for righteousness! That's the gospel - the *gift* of God's righteousness given freely to all who believe.

From *Joel Brueseke*


----------



## hobbs27 (Nov 11, 2019)

Christianity is the continuation of the old covenant. It is better than the old, but it was what the old covenant saints looked to, hope for. It is death defeated, eternal life, The Kingdom from heaven, as Jesus Christ our King!

The law is fulfilled, every jot and tittle. Jesus accomplished what He came to do, and when a contract is fulfilled , or a debt is paid, that contract and debt is no more than a memory.

God Bless! Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lord's!


----------



## gordon 2 (Nov 14, 2019)

StriperAddict said:


> An encouraging recap:
> 
> 
> "As long as we think of sin...
> ...


Thinking is the problem? Does not sin injure one's spiritual life and thinking about sin besides?

The struggle of Christians is not one of moral standard, it is rather one of Godly standard afforded by grace? The problem is grieving the Spirit in Christianity. And to my mind thinking that the way we think makes for what contaminates the Christian life is just folly. We miss "the one who is Life" because our Christian ancestors missed " the one who is Life" in their spiritual walks and we choose a false righteousness knowing death as life or we chose death even though we sing that we chose life. We live the lives of worms and declare ourselves as angels.  The mind can play all kinds of spins on this... but in the end... the heart simply will say, " What a sin! To love God with all your heart and mind is not enough... to the souls condemned to wonder...elsewhere..."

So without thinking too much about it... I think for God the problem is the heart not the mind... It is the heart that was injured by the fall from grace... it is the heart that is injured by the fall from grace...

And this is really about the great problem of bible based Christianity... which for the most part has become  basically a glorified bible study... of what the "bible says" to the mind, never minding what God ( "God within") whispers to the hearts of Christian men and women.  History will tell that with their minds Christians sinned with evil just as well as " the uncivilized" that they by great commission sought to convert to their  more mindful and sinful ways. From bargaining with forked tongues, to pushing enemy soldier out of choppers, to the systematic ( state sanctioned)  torture of enemies...Christians have splaining to do... But few will explain from the heart... they have none... their Christian mind ate it.


----------



## StriperAddict (Nov 18, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> ...Christians have splaining to do... But few will explain from the heart... they have none... their Christian mind ate it.


Christians have no heart. (?) 
Interesting. 
In the New Covenant God gave believers new hearts and spirits. So important was this that it was stated by Ezekiel years before the cross and resurrection made it a reality. (Ch 36)
True, our thinking gets affected by the power of sin, but greater is Christ within us than he that is in the world, aka the influencers of ungodliness, namely the world flesh and the devil. I've stated countless times that these 3 are not the believers identity, but Gordon, you desire to strip a Christians indwelt life with every fiber of your being, as if nothing came of this incredible one time sacrifice for sinners.  I am not surprised by this in much of the "religious" - void of the Spirit community, and I'm not suggesting you fall into that, but you seek to give unbelief rights to the same throne of God as those who fell at Jesus feet and by believing have inherited eternal life.  
I hope your experience with believers, especially those who will love you in Christ by His power within - changes.  And this concern is from my heart, wether you believe me or not.
The grace of God in broken earthen pots filled in Christ will go where unbelieving humanity cannot. And those filled pots will take their new hearts along, with or without good thought choices. 

Grace and Peace to you. 
- Walter


----------



## Israel (Nov 19, 2019)

gordon 2 said:


> From bargaining with forked tongues, to pushing enemy soldier out of choppers, to the systematic ( state sanctioned)  torture of enemies...Christians have splaining to do... But few will explain from the heart... they have none... their Christian mind ate it.



What you describe above, are they not the works of the flesh?

My being able to identify them as such means nothing, any literate Bible owner can recite them from Galatians. And with enough immersion in_ Christian culture_...even feign repugnance.
(they also seem notably of American historicity in their recounting, dealings/treaties with the indigenous tribes, Vietnam helicopter interrogations, and more recent waterboardings) Of course it doesn't help when you have those willing to describe, (and those willing to eat such description of) the USA as a_ shining_ "City set on a hill"..._the light of the world_ while their own wife is consulting astrologers.

In certain areas (of the USA) one has a better chance of escaping without a broken lip by saying Jesus made some serious mistakes instead of casting any aspersions upon Ronaldus Magnus. But, yes, to a great extent certains view Jesus Christ as driving a Ford pick up, equipped with a gun rack, NRA decal, and a bumper sticker "America, love it or leave it!". To think of Christ as driving a Toyota...well...is blasphemy of the highest sort.

The USA has never been shy about declaring itself the recipient of Divine mandate, protector and promulgator of such, last bastion of liberty in a darkening world. (Till one tests such "liberty" by merely speaking publicly of those things found an offense)

But let's face it "God on Our Side" is no anthem new nor reserved to just the USA. It has served as cover for all manner of things down through the ages...no matter what god was being touted as superior...and what better justification is there than "Divine Mandate"? What can't one indemnify himself against by such usage?

But that ultimately is less the issue than the general predilection of man to serve whatever (to him) is exalted form of the "superior". The _age of reason_ itself has much to answer for.

Why would we...if we have any conviction that the word of Christ is true...doubt such as "many will come in my name..."? Christ knows how many will seek advantage in acknowledging Him in some form or other...even to the most craven deceptions. (Which seems never far from my own considerations "Is it I Lord?") But that helps no one at all...in "my" confession...it makes me neither honest broker nor anything at all except (if one can believe it)...I am no more more inured to deception than any other. My only hope is as I see it...I am lost apart from so great an intervention on my behalf as is _almost_ unspeakable...and that _almost_ is where "how great a salvation!" meets "if the righteous be scarcely saved" finding resolution, for only there I am delighted to be pressed to receive...scarcely. I, who am at best scarcely...is even given to speak of "so great a salvation".

You see, though I am not known to have ever pushed a presumed Viet Cong from a chopper, nor waterboarded anyone (though I am not free of the knowledge of more advanced form of torture, like merely withholding an honest fellowship from a pleading soul) I am surely open to the accusation of being double tongued before the Lord. God forbid I lie in regards to His knowing of me! The fears I often entertain (one may rightly ask...is just "one"...too often?) and find moving me...hidden...till His light reproves. Corruption rarely declares itself plainly...while it may remain hidden in such common (and often acceptable form)..."but I am just a little worried".
The _victim of fear_ in any form claims for himself all ungodly exoneration. Victims...always _hold a right_ to themselves.

No, I don't know how one can claim the Lord's name while doing anything untoward...except they must be self convinced they have a_ right to._


And_ that, _I understand all_ too well._

_



_


----------

