# Hope of afterlife



## 1gr8bldr (Mar 17, 2013)

I don't know how to word this in a way that it suspresses religion. I am interested in the religious perspective, just not at the beginning of the thread because it seems to restrain the atheist view  that I am foremost interested in. But I do hope to hear from both sides

I my circle, in my world, my contacts, people I know, seems everyone has a hope of a better afterlife. Every funeral I have ever attended, regardless of beliefs, the family always says "they are in a better place now". What are your thoughts about this? Hope of an afterlife


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2013)

I believe that while experiencing "life" and "living"... we as a species don't want it to end. Once a person dies I believe they are gone. The kind words and best wishes after a person passes are for the comfort of the survivors as it helps them deal with the loss and the mortality that we all face.
If a hunter passes, well then "he has gone to the great woods of the sky."
If a highly religious person passes..."he or she is with God now".
Each and every persons passion in life is mentioned and passed along with them in death...according to everyone around them that is still living. Sports, fanatics, political,close family ties, outdoorsmen, slot machine players, car enthusiasts etc...you name it...the living associate their time after death with what they loved during life. The thoughts of these things is what helps the living cope with death. If we knew there was nothing we would go mad thinking about it 24/7. This "hope" does tie in with religion, control and order in that behaving now gets you to a better place and then in that better place you will be rewarded.....so behave NOW...when in reality if we all live to be a healthy 100yrs old, it is not a lot of time, and WHY work, WHY behave, Why do anything other than what you want to do because in the end having a bazillion dollars or a nickle to your name does not matter one iota. The only thing while living is being able to pass the "good" memories along to your family and friends and some wealth if you want to help with their lives. Otherwise....you are just dead.
As much as I love to hunt and shoot and reload, I highly doubt I'm going to the "great Arsenal and 1000yd range in the Sky".


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## WTM45 (Mar 17, 2013)

bullethead said:


> This "hope" does tie in with religion, control and order in that behaving now gets you to a better place and then in that better place you will be rewarded.....so behave NOW...



Religious belief systems have used this not only in controlling the thoughts and actions of people but in the creation of the eternally existing deity in which they base their beliefs.

Yep, that ideal of "hope" exists for those who remain, not the one who is gone.  Often times it is hard for the living to find closure when faced with the Duck Commander's "He gone!" reply.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2013)

I hear "they are in a better place now". I used to automatically think Heaven...now I think yep, it is they do not have to put up with the suffering,pain, or whatever ailed them here.
The sudden losses are always tough to comprehend although "God wanted them or God always takes the good ones first" are never left out...neither are the "It was their time" or " When your time is up in the book there is nothing you can do about it"....I think there is something wrong if there is a book that says "John Doe, 8:17am...going to work after promising kids he will attend their school open house in evening...To Be beheaded in violent car crash on way to work...29years of age". Then have a family member of survivor say "Thank God for stepping in and sparing her life...yeah she lost both arms and legs and is paralyzed, but it wasn't HER time". Gimme a break!! On the other hand just about everyone at some point has or will actually wish for the passing of a terminal friend or family member. At first prayer to save them is common then prayer to end the suffering takes over. If they pass that second or after weeks of suffering somehow the "merciful" God still gets credit. Truth is they died when they died.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 17, 2013)

I believe that most are buried and dead and are no more, such as a pet. No he11. I have the view that God has chosen some to reveal himself to, like the Israelites. They even they, such as the Israelites have breeches of faith. Those whom he has chosen, Jesus being the first, will be raised from the dead to live in a heaven like relationship with God, such as life in the garden of eden. The other view of he11 makes God out to be a monster whom does not assume responsibility for creating man that has trouble seeing him.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 17, 2013)

I have a friend who was recently in a terrible accident, whom may never walk again. I keep hearing people say that God worked a miracle by him surviving the crash. But I know that his teenage son is saying, "where was God before the crash?" I wonder if people realize what they are saying or whether they do realize it but are trying to find good among the bad?


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 17, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> Religious belief systems have used this not only in controlling the thoughts and actions of people but in the creation of the eternally existing deity in which they base their beliefs.
> 
> Yep, that ideal of "hope" exists for those who remain, not the one who is gone.  Often times it is hard for the living to find closure when faced with the Duck Commander's "He gone!" reply.


I have never realized just how much this "hope" is in religion until now. From beginning to end of the scriptures. Yes, I agree that they use this to control, with an emphasis on the heat


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## BuckHunter31 (Mar 17, 2013)

As a God fearing man, I believe there is a better life after death for myself. The Bible says there will be no more suffering, pain or struggles. That no matter what physical state I am in when I do pass, I WILL be restored to the fullest. That's the promise behind the words.

Now when it comes to funerals and the saying they are in a better place, I feel that is just to comfort the loved ones. The only thing that gets you into that "better place" is based on a PERSONAL relationship with Christ. How does anyone know for sure if anyone but themselves is in the righteous? Like I said, it is personal. 

And as far as the "controlling" goes... it's not so much of trying to be in control, but rather to live a life worth living. To live the "right" not the "wrong" way. To follow the righteous path. But no matter how nice you are or how many good deeds you have done, in the end, it is still your personal relationship with the Lord that matters. No sin or wrong doing can keep you from Heaven other than not accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior. Though you will answer for all your sins, the blood of Christ will wash you clean and forgiveness will be given.

Everything happens for a reason. We may not see the reason behind it, but there is a plan. We sometimes are not meant to understand and that's okay. God is in control. And yes God will get ALL the credit for he is the creator of the universe, I do believe. I watched my great Grandma suffer for a month in hospice. It seemed every day it got harder and harder for her to take a breath. She was in a coma state the last 2 weeks of her soul being here on the Earth. We prayed she would go fast and painless, but she did not. When in fact she did leave this place, God received the glory. For it was Him that took the pain and suffering away. 

As I watched her wither away, I couldn't help but to reflect on my past. My life in general and what I have done with it. It reminded me that life is precious and short. None of us know for a fact when our time will be up. Live and love life like it's about to end. Spend time with those that lift you up, not bring you down. Enjoy your time here. These are just some things that I really homed in on. I saw my little brother cry for the first time from an emotional matter. I saw my mom grow stronger during the process for her husband who was losing his mom. Maybe these were some of the reasons why she stayed with us so long. Maybe not. I will never understand and that is okay. She died at the ripe old age of 98. Which is still not long enough. But it changed me as a person, as a believer and follower of Christ. 

I never post in the section but stumbled across this and felt the need to share. I really don't have a dog in the fight because I feel everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and ways about which they live their lives. I have friends that are homosexual, non believers, sinners, Baptist, Jewish, Catholic, black, white and everything in between. I do not judge as this is not for me to do. I will reach out to friends in need and pray for them. I will ask non believers to come to church and see what it's all about. I will be a Christian and show love and kindness to those who have not been loving and kind. But do not take my kindness for weakness. I will stand up for what I believe in. But I will not push my beliefs on to anyone who is not the same as myself. But I will continue to be the light shining in the dark just in case they make "that" decision and need someone to turn to.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 17, 2013)

BuckHunter31 said:


> As a God fearing man, I believe there is a better life after death for myself. The Bible says there will be no more suffering, pain or struggles. That no matter what physical state I am in when I do pass, I WILL be restored to the fullest. That's the promise behind the words.
> 
> Now when it comes to funerals and the saying they are in a better place, I feel that is just to comfort the loved ones. The only thing that gets you into that "better place" is based on a PERSONAL relationship with Christ. How does anyone know for sure if anyone but themselves is in the righteous? Like I said, it is personal.
> 
> ...




Thanks for sharing. I appreciate your attitude


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2013)

BuckHunter31 said:


> As a God fearing man, I believe there is a better life after death for myself. The Bible says there will be no more suffering, pain or struggles. That no matter what physical state I am in when I do pass, I WILL be restored to the fullest. That's the promise behind the words.
> 
> Now when it comes to funerals and the saying they are in a better place, I feel that is just to comfort the loved ones. The only thing that gets you into that "better place" is based on a PERSONAL relationship with Christ. How does anyone know for sure if anyone but themselves is in the righteous? Like I said, it is personal.
> 
> ...



Someone, a student I believe, once said darkness is just the absence of light.........


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## BuckHunter31 (Mar 17, 2013)

That is correcto  mine was just a figure of speech. Man you're quick lol. Take care brother


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2013)

BuckHunter31 said:


> That is correcto  mine was just a figure of speech. Man you're quick lol. Take care brother



All in good fun. Take care, Happy Easter.


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## TripleXBullies (Mar 18, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> I don't know how to word this in a way that it suspresses religion. I am interested in the religious perspective, just not at the beginning of the thread because it seems to restrain the atheist view  that I am foremost interested in. But I do hope to hear from both sides
> 
> I my circle, in my world, my contacts, people I know, seems everyone has a hope of a better afterlife. Every funeral I have ever attended, regardless of beliefs, the family always says "they are in a better place now". What are your thoughts about this? Hope of an afterlife



The afterlife, and likely much of the other junk that accompanies it, was thought up to help people deal with death. People can do some crazy things when dealing with fear.... and I think that everyone has a fear of death because it is inevitable. I am sure a lot of religious, christians (not just them specifically but a lot of them don't like saying they are religious) or whatever will say that they have no fear of it... They may not... because they have their "assurance" of the afterlife. It did part of what it was intended to do. It's pretty clear that no one knows anything about the afterlife... since all we can know is about life... And that it is pretty comforting to say, "they're in a better place."


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## TripleXBullies (Mar 18, 2013)

BuckHunter31 said:


> And as far as the "controlling" goes... it's not so much of trying to be in control, but rather to live a life worth living. To live the "right" not the "wrong" way. To follow the righteous path. But no matter how nice you are or how many good deeds you have done, in the end, it is still your personal relationship with the Lord that matters. No sin or wrong doing can keep you from Heaven other than not accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior. Though you will answer for all your sins, the blood of Christ will wash you clean and forgiveness will be given.



Definitely, when you're trying to to get people to follow the "righteous" path then you have to convince them to do it. For whatever the reason, if you want someone or group of people to act in a certain way... control them. If it's all about a "personal" relationship, then you, or they, have nothing to do with anyone else's.


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## stringmusic (Mar 18, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> The afterlife, and likely much of the other junk that accompanies it, was thought up to help people deal with death. People can do some crazy things when dealing with fear.... and I think that everyone has a fear of death because it is inevitable. I am sure a lot of religious, christians (not just them specifically but a lot of them don't like saying they are religious) or whatever will say that they have no fear of it... They may not... because they have their "assurance" of the afterlife. It did part of what it was intended to do. It's pretty clear that no one knows anything about the afterlife... since all we can know is about life... And that it is pretty comforting to say, "they're in a better place."



We know there is nothing in the afterlife, because when we ask the dead, they say "nothing".


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## TripleXBullies (Mar 18, 2013)

They said it theyselves


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 18, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> I believe that most are buried and dead and are no more, such as a pet. No he11. I have the view that God has chosen some to reveal himself to, like the Israelites. They even they, such as the Israelites have breeches of faith. Those whom he has chosen, Jesus being the first, will be raised from the dead to live in a heaven like relationship with God, such as life in the garden of eden. The other view of he11 makes God out to be a monster whom does not assume responsibility for creating man that has trouble seeing him.



So you believe more or less like JW's. If you are a Christian in God's view , you live forever?  If you are unsaved, you die when you die? The bible says Christians will have an eternal life. The unsaved  will have no eternal life. JW's believe this eternal life will be spent on Earth by most with only a few going to Heaven.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 18, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> So you believe more or less like JW's. If you are a Christian in God's view , you live forever?  If you are unsaved, you die when you die? The bible says Christians will have an eternal life. The unsaved  will have no eternal life. JW's believe this eternal life will be spent on Earth by most with only a few going to Heaven.


We have some similar beliefs yet have other differences to big to reconcile. I did not know that they believe some will go to heaven. I have found that among those who call themselves JW's, they have different beliefs. One that worked for me this summer, believed you had to work and no blood products. The ones that used to come to my house did not believe you had to work but stated that it was not out of obligation but that they did what they did because it seemed like the right thing to do considering what God had done for us


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## jmharris23 (Mar 18, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> We have some similar beliefs yet have other differences to big to reconcile. I did not know that they believe some will go to heaven. I have found that among those who call themselves JW's, they have different beliefs. One that worked for me this summer, believed you had to work and no blood products. The ones that used to come to my house did not believe you had to work but stated that it was not out of obligation but that they did what they did because it seemed like the right thing to do considering what God had done for us



What do you believe? I thought you were a professing Christian? I must have missed a thread or post somewhere?


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 18, 2013)

Hey JmHarris, I believe that Jesus is the adopted son of God, that the HS is not a person as says the creeds and that he11 is a product of bad translating. That is where I differ with most people


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 18, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey JmHarris, I believe that Jesus is the adopted son of God, that the HS is not a person as says the creeds and that he11 is a product of bad translating. That is where I differ with most people



Well as you know my beliefs don't follow main stream Christian beliefs either. I believe Jesus is the actual Son of God having all powers bestowed on him by his Father. I don't believe Jesus is God.The Holy Spirit is the power of God. I follow more closely to the United Church of God. I do believe in an actual He!!. I don't believe you go to Heaven until you get a new body. I believe Jesus in in Heaven today in a body of flesh & bones.

http://www.ucg.org/booklet/who-god/god-trinity/


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## bullethead (Mar 18, 2013)

These things, these "I believe in God but not quite like you do", these 30,000+ Christian denominations that ALL differ slightly from the next and each and every individual within those denominations differs slightly from the next........
I just cannot bring myself to embrace the concept.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> We have some similar beliefs yet have other differences to big to reconcile. I did not know that they believe some will go to heaven. I have found that among those who call themselves JW's, they have different beliefs. One that worked for me this summer, believed you had to work and no blood products. The ones that used to come to my house did not believe you had to work but stated that it was not out of obligation but that they did what they did because it seemed like the right thing to do considering what God had done for us



Actually it depends on what the Bible says. You either believe what the Bible says or you don't.  And yes there are different interpretations of a lot of things. But it says (for the JWs) we are not saved by works. They don't believe that. No one could ever do enough works to match what Christ did on the cross, in my opinion. Yes we are to witness, they've got that, and they are faithful in doing it....something I couldn't go door to door with.  But I am a witness for Christ every chance I get....I come here for that reason...and it was by accident I got into this forum at all. No where in the bible except the old testament does it say anything about blood...and Christ finished/fulfilled that covenant on the cross.

The bible also says that satan is the author of confusion. Anything to trick and trip us up.

Of course I could go on and on, but I'm tryin' to tame ol' ramblin' rose within myself..

JMHO


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## mtnwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

This thread makes me wanna say...."help us Sweet Jesus".


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 19, 2013)

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?


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## jmharris23 (Mar 19, 2013)

This thread makes me want to be an atheist.....honest to goodness I don't blame any of these guys for not believing. 

What a mess.....


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 19, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Well as you know my beliefs don't follow main stream Christian beliefs either. I believe Jesus is the actual Son of God having all powers bestowed on him by his Father. I don't believe Jesus is God.The Holy Spirit is the power of God. I follow more closely to the United Church of God. I do believe in an actual He!!. I don't believe you go to Heaven until you get a new body. I believe Jesus in in Heaven today in a body of flesh & bones.
> 
> http://www.ucg.org/booklet/who-god/god-trinity/


Have you ever studied the he11 concept? It can be interesting. Paul did not believe in he11. He said that he wished that he could be cut off from God if his people would only know God. He would not say that if he thought that he would suffer extremely forever and ever. Also, the original writer when he wrote he11, the greek word he used was gehenna. That was a picture of a trash dump outside the city where they throwed rubbish, dung, etc. People were coming everyday so the fire never went out. It does not carry the thought of eternal torment, rather irreversable destruction.


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## TripleXBullies (Mar 19, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey JmHarris, I believe that Jesus is the adopted son of God, that the HS is not a person as says the creeds and that he11 is a product of bad translating. That is where I differ with most people



He11 is a product of bad translating.. Just the area outside of the city?


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## TripleXBullies (Mar 19, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Well as you know my beliefs don't follow main stream Christian beliefs either. I believe Jesus is the actual Son of God having all powers bestowed on him by his Father. I don't believe Jesus is God.The Holy Spirit is the power of God. I follow more closely to the United Church of God. I do believe in an actual He!!. I don't believe you go to Heaven until you get a new body. I believe Jesus in in Heaven today in a body of flesh & bones.
> 
> http://www.ucg.org/booklet/who-god/god-trinity/



Heaven, a spiritual place, is where flesh and bones Jesus lives?


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 19, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Actually it depends on what the Bible says. You either believe what the Bible says or you don't.  And yes there are different interpretations of a lot of things. But it says (for the JWs) we are not saved by works. They don't believe that. No one could ever do enough works to match what Christ did on the cross, in my opinion. Yes we are to witness, they've got that, and they are faithful in doing it....something I couldn't go door to door with.  But I am a witness for Christ every chance I get....I come here for that reason...and it was by accident I got into this forum at all. No where in the bible except the old testament does it say anything about blood...and Christ finished/fulfilled that covenant on the cross
> 
> The bible also says that satan is the author of confusion. Anything to trick and trip us up.
> 
> ...


 I asked the JW that worked for me last summer where they got the idea about no blood. As I expected, it is a twisting of only 2 verses that is not even the subject of the verse. They say "see, I told you it was in there".


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 19, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> He11 is a product of bad translating.. Just the area outside of the city?


Sorry to be the one to point this out. Traditions are powerful. Maybe we should make a thread about this. Check into it and you will see what I am saying about gehenna. Hollywood has given us an incorrect view of angels. The same way, he11 has lost it's original meaning. We have to look back to see what the original writer intended.


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## TripleXBullies (Mar 19, 2013)

I know. I have read a little bit about that. I hadn't read your post about the dump yet when I posted that.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 19, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I know. I have read a little bit about that. I hadn't read your post about the dump yet when I posted that.


The study eventually leads to the parable of the rich man in he11. This is the only hurdle to making a solid case against the modern view of he11. If it were not for this parable, it would be an easy sell


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## TripleXBullies (Mar 19, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> This thread makes me want to be an atheist.....honest to goodness I don't blame any of these guys for not believing.
> 
> What a mess.....



The truth works in mysterious ways.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 19, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> This thread makes me want to be an atheist.....honest to goodness I don't blame any of these guys for not believing.
> 
> What a mess.....



So if you discard my beliefs and 1gr8bldr's beliefs, that leaves you with 28, 998+ denominations to contend with.
Let's throw in some good ole foot washing & shouting Oneness instead of the Trinity beliefs to help these guys out or actually eating & drinking Jesus' blood & flesh.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 19, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Heaven, a spiritual place, is where flesh and bones Jesus lives?



Most mainstream Christians believe Heaven will be a physical place. They believe their souls will come back to Earth when Jesus returns and re-enter their renewed resurrected bodies. Eventually they will return to Heaven with Jesus in their bodies of flesh & bones. 
This is what I was taught growing up in a Baptist Chruch.

My difference is I believe the soul sleeps or goes to Paradise until Jesus returns to the Earth. Then your body will awake & resurrect. Lot of other Christias believe this so it's not one of my "out there somewhere" beliefs. 
It is funny how Christians believe there way is the only way. Especially after saying we are saved by grace & faith and nothing else matters as for as salvation is concerned.


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## jmharris23 (Mar 19, 2013)

bullethead said:


> These things, these "I believe in God but not quite like you do", these 30,000+ Christian denominations that ALL differ slightly from the next and each and every individual within those denominations differs slightly from the next........
> I just cannot bring myself to embrace the concept.



I don't blame ya......I really don't.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 20, 2013)

bullethead said:


> These things, these "I believe in God but not quite like you do", these 30,000+ Christian denominations that ALL differ slightly from the next and each and every individual within those denominations differs slightly from the next........
> I just cannot bring myself to embrace the concept.



The important part of Christianity is that Jesus died for our sins, anyone who believes. Then he was resurrected by His Father, and ascended to Heaven to be with his Father.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> The important part of Christianity is that Jesus died for our sins, anyone who believes. Then he was resurrected by His Father, and ascended to Heaven to be with his Father.



I was a practicing Christian for 20 years I know the story. In the  23 years since I stopped practicing I have found that on an individual level each person thinks differently than the next and is quick to point out the faults in what someone else believes yet they are CERTAIN that what they believe is exactly spot on and somehow they understand the Bible and God better than all others. Go to the next person and it is the same thing...they are right and the last person "doesn't get it".
I have come to the conclusion that No ONE gets it because there is nothing to be "got".


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 20, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I was a practicing Christian for 20 years I know the story. In the  23 years since I stopped practicing I have found that on an individual level each person thinks differently than the next and is quick to point out the faults in what someone else believes yet they are CERTAIN that what they believe is exactly spot on and somehow they understand the Bible and God better than all others. Go to the next person and it is the same thing...they are right and the last person "doesn't get it".
> I have come to the conclusion that No ONE gets it because there is nothing to be "got".



The very same Christians who tell you "you don't get it if you don't follow their individual  beliefs", are the very same Christians who say, all that matters is being saved by grace.
I would say listen and learn from everyone. The more you know the easier it will be to "rightly divide the truth."
Then you can personally decide what is a part of salvation and what is part of living a Christian life.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> The very same Christians who tell you "you don't get it if you don't follow their individual  beliefs", are the very same Christians who say, all that matters is being saved by grace.
> I would say listen and learn from everyone. The more you know the easier it will be to "rightly divide the truth."
> Then you can personally decide what is a part of salvation and what is part of living a Christian life.



Respectfully, No Thank You.
I have already been there and done that and have found out that it is not for me. I simply don't want to be a part of something I cannot believe in.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 20, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Respectfully, No Thank You.
> I have already been there and done that and have found out that it is not for me. I simply don't want to be a part of something I cannot believe in.



You'll be ok, you were a Christian for 20 years. God will call you back to the flock before you die.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> You'll be ok, you were a Christian for 20 years. God will call you back to the flock before you die.



Free Will says he won't. He does not have the choice, I do.


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## WTM45 (Mar 20, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> You'll be ok, you were a Christian for 20 years. God will call you back to the flock before you die.



I bet that would be a lazer light show to rival a Pink Floyd concert!


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## ambush80 (Mar 20, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> I bet that would be a lazer light show to rival a Pink Floyd concert!



One freaking talking burning bush.  That's all I want.  Is that too much to ask?


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## mtnwoman (Mar 20, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> One freaking talking burning bush.  That's all I want.  Is that too much to ask?



Sorry, Moses beat you to the punch on that one.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2013)

I think Moses was the grand poo-bah of telling stories, and not true stories.


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## Asath (Mar 20, 2013)

"Every funeral I have ever attended, regardless of beliefs, the family always says "they are in a better place now"."

Indeed.  No bills to pay.  Nobody carping at them all day.  No 'leaders' ordering them around.  No hunger.  No thirst.  No fears.  No desires.  No advertising.  No shopping malls.  No demands.  No rewards.  No expectations.  No pressures. No nothing.  

Just dead.  Finally.  

What's so great about existence that makes non-existence so scary?  Seems like a relief.

Afterlife?  For Eternity?  Keep it.  What would you do for eternity?  Play solitaire and listen to sermons?  Learn how to play the harpsichord?  Wonder how those other fellas in their own eternity are getting along with their 72 virgins?  Listen to thousands of years worth of your fellow 'Saved' expound about how great they were, back in the day?  Forever?

Really.  Think about it.  What possible attraction could there be in 'Forever'?

So, yeah -- they are in a better place -- not here.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 21, 2013)

Asath said:


> "Every funeral I have ever attended, regardless of beliefs, the family always says "they are in a better place now"."
> 
> Indeed.  No bills to pay.  Nobody carping at them all day.  No 'leaders' ordering them around.  No hunger.  No thirst.  No fears.  No desires.  No advertising.  No shopping malls.  No demands.  No rewards.  No expectations.  No pressures. No nothing.
> 
> ...



This is the answer I was looking for, the atheist perspective. Interesting, I never expected this. I wonder if this is a "typical atheist answer" or if there are atheist who think it would be great to live forever?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 21, 2013)

I wonder if a 95 year old yearns for eternity as much as a 20 year old?  From a He!! believing Christian perspective, eternity isn't a choice. I asked on the forum before, if he!! didn't exist would the reward of Heaven be enough to become a Christian. Some said the whole concept was Christ saving us from He!! so There would be no point in believing without the existiance of He!!. Yet there are Christians who don't believe in he!!, so the rewards of eternity in Heaven are enough.


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## jmharris23 (Mar 21, 2013)

Asath said:


> "Every funeral I have ever attended, regardless of beliefs, the family always says "they are in a better place now"."
> 
> Indeed.  No bills to pay.  Nobody carping at them all day.  No 'leaders' ordering them around.  No hunger.  No thirst.  No fears.  No desires.  No advertising.  No shopping malls.  No demands.  No rewards.  No expectations.  No pressures. No nothing.
> 
> ...



I get what you're saying here and from your perspective I agree with it totally. 

Of course, from my biblical perspective, eternity is none of the things you listed for the believer nor the non-believer. 

Eternity for the believer is the ability to finally live in the reality of creation as God intended. Pure joy, true happiness, a complete and unbroken communication with the creator God, no sadness or pain, true worship, fulfillment, and many other wonderful things....

For the non-believer eternity is the complete opposite of this, brokenness, sadness, pain, separation, and other horrors that no one wants to experience. 

Now I understand you don't believe any of that, and as I have said before, I am not sure I blame you, and it is certainly your right. 

I just wanted to give a more biblical perspective of eternity, for it is none of the things you listed.


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## stringmusic (Mar 21, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> This is the answer I was looking for, the atheist perspective. Interesting, I never expected this. I wonder if this is a "typical atheist answer" or if there are atheist who think it would be great to live forever?



I think I remember four saying he would like to live forever.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> I get what you're saying here and from your perspective I agree with it totally.
> 
> Of course, from my biblical perspective, eternity is none of the things you listed for the believer nor the non-believer.
> 
> ...



One of the great "problems" with believers of specific religions is that they get complacent in an "either this or that" type of mindset. They narrow it all down to "if I am wrong I have lost nothing" because they ONLY take into account that it is Either their religion or nothing. Eternity is described by ALL religions and it seems to differ among them. If a believer of one can think that IF they are wrong then I have lost nothing...and open the door to at least One other option then they really should consider that IF they are wrong there are many options. Being believers already has them considering One possibility and already having that belief should open their eyes to the possibility that yeah we think there is a God, but we might not have it quite right. Being that there is so much dissension within our own ranks about our own religion maybe we ought to cover more bases.
There are other religions that has a version of eternity that is none of the things the Bible has listed......what if  one of those is correct?


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## TheBishop (Mar 21, 2013)

Asath said:


> "Every funeral I have ever attended, regardless of beliefs, the family always says "they are in a better place now"."
> 
> Indeed.  No bills to pay.  Nobody carping at them all day.  No 'leaders' ordering them around.  No hunger.  No thirst.  No fears.  No desires.  No advertising.  No shopping malls.  No demands.  No rewards.  No expectations.  No pressures. No nothing.
> 
> ...



So, um, like, getting back to that whole 72 virgin thing, um, do you get 72 more when you reach number 72, or are you stuck with the same 72 for eternity? Do they need to be vrigins or can I upgrade to partly seasoned vets? Do I get any say in the age range, with otpions to upgrade for mileage? What about maintenance, what kind of emotional requirments are expected on my half? How are they chosen, I mean do I get some say in their dimensional aspects? What kind of hormonal issuse do we have in this paradise? Women that live together tend to cycle together, paradise would quickly devolve with 72 women that were "cranky" at the same time!


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## jmharris23 (Mar 21, 2013)

bullethead said:


> One of the great "problems" with believers of specific religions is that they get complacent in an "either this or that" type of mindset. They narrow it all down to "if I am wrong I have lost nothing" because they ONLY take into account that it is Either their religion or nothing. Eternity is described by ALL religions and it seems to differ among them. If a believer of one can think that IF they are wrong then I have lost nothing...and open the door to at least One other option then they really should consider that IF they are wrong there are many options. Being believers already has them considering One possibility and already having that belief should open their eyes to the possibility that yeah we think there is a God, but we might not have it quite right. Being that there is so much dissension within our own ranks about our own religion maybe we ought to cover more bases.
> There are other religions that has a version of eternity that is none of the things the Bible has listed......what if  one of those is correct?



That's a good question......what if one of them is correct? 

My honest answer and non-sarcastic answer is this: " Then I was wrong!"


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## Asath (Mar 22, 2013)

The problem, I guess, is right here -- 

"Eternity for the believer is the ability to finally live in the reality of creation as God intended."

But here one makes the leap from the rather tangible idea of one's personal dreams and hopes to an assuumption -- By what authority can one, First, posit the actual existence of a god of any sort, or Second, speak with such certainty as to what this entity 'intended'?

Our world contains many different versions of 'God's intentions' -- and remember here that Islam, Judaism, and Christianity all derive from the same Old Testament, and view the very same 'God of Abraham' as their authority -- but we see radically different ideas as to just how the 'intentions' of this god ought to be viewed.  Just which man, among so many, is able to be the one to assume that the 'intentions' of 'God' seem to match his own? A miracle, certainly, for such an exact alignment to occur.

Bishop makes this same point, though more humorously -- his point asks, "Um, Eternity seems like quite a long time, what if I grow up and change my mind?"  The whole idea becomes an imaginary wresting match, then, between one's expectations and what might actually occur in such an imaginary place as an afterlife -- what is Eternity to a child who dies as an infant?  To an Alzheimer's patient who dies without awareness even of themselves?  To a Down's Syndrome victim, or a brain-damaged accident victim?  Is Eternity just an endless continuation of the state one was found when one expired?  Does anyone know this, with certainty?  

Is the infant suddenly grown, and endowed with experiences and awarenesses never encountered?  Are the minds of those who either never had them or lost them suddenly made aware and whole and ideal?  CAN one grow, and change, and advance, and finally learn to play the harpsichord, given that one now has all of ETERNITY to do so?  Or is this just another ill-thought out promise of the belief industry, secure in the knowledge that all they need to do is scare folks and offer vague visions of ideals in order to grow rich and powerful in the here and now?  

Any discussion of the 'intentions' of a god would, also, need to be prefaced by a demonstration that such a god did, indeed, exist, had somehow made such intentions manifest objectively for all to see, and had delivered some tangible results that can be relied upon.  Lacking that, which you would expect of any company asking an investment of your money, it seems odd that folks are so willing to invest their entire self-definition and sacrifice their entire existence to ideas that have no delivery but death, which will happen anyway, with the approval of the self-appointed elders or without.

Wrestling with the non-existent is an exercise that may well have built all manner of cathedrals and mosques and 'Holy' shrines along the course of history, but from a perspective of pure rationality it seems academic.  The only results any of the religions have to show are, and have always been, in the here and now, and most of those results do not testify favorably on their behalf.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 22, 2013)

TheBishop said:


> So, um, like, getting back to that whole 72 virgin thing, um, do you get 72 more when you reach number 72, or are you stuck with the same 72 for eternity? Do they need to be vrigins or can I upgrade to partly seasoned vets? Do I get any say in the age range, with otpions to upgrade for mileage? What about maintenance, what kind of emotional requirments are expected on my half? How are they chosen, I mean do I get some say in their dimensional aspects? What kind of hormonal issuse do we have in this paradise? Women that live together tend to cycle together, paradise would quickly devolve with 72 women that were "cranky" at the same time!



72 virgins

I don't know if you get to pick them, but I don't think they will cycle...that wouldn't be heaven would it....more likely a hades...

You're right, women living together or are close friends seem to cycle together. So 5 days outta the month...do not pass go, go staight to the man cave. 

Wonder what women get? probably not much but servidude...that's one reason why I believe differently...No No:


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## jmharris23 (Mar 22, 2013)

Asath said:


> The problem, I guess, is right here --
> 
> "Eternity for the believer is the ability to finally live in the reality of creation as God intended."
> 
> ...



Well my answer to your question is the bible is my authority on which I based my answer and my certainty. 

Of course I understand that doesn't work for you. But you asked the question and I answered it. 

To the rest of your commentary, I will point you to my previous answer to bullet.......perhaps I am wrong, and I guess one day we shall see. But today, I would give my all and even my life for what I believe. 

It's ok to pity me in that if you must. The Apostle Paul said "if what we claim to believe is not true, then when are above all the world most to be pitied."


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 22, 2013)

Hope for eternity reminds me of discussions on what eternity in Heaven will be like. Here is something I had but I don't remember who said it:
quote: NEW, IMMORTAL, REAL, PHYSICAL AND YOUTHFUL BODIES - No wrinkles, blemishes, bumps or scars. Perfect symmetry and proportion. - For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Philippians 3:20,21) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:52,53) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. (1 Corinthians 15:49) Notice God's promise. - His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth: (Job 33:25) end quote
Quote: To enjoy all the blessings of our eternal life, we’ll require a physical body. We know this because Jesus made such a point of demonstrating that He had one (Luke 24:36-39), and John wrote that when we see Him we’ll be like He is. (1 John 3:2) Departed believers have to wait for the rapture to get theirs just like we do. In fact, the entire creation is waiting for the Rapture. (Romans 8:19)end quote
quote: Jesus had a real body; He invited Thomas to touch Him (John 20:27). On this occasion Jesus walked into a real house, talked to real people, and ate real food (Luke 24:43). We can be assured that our heavenly bodies will be as solid and real as Christ’s resurrected body. end quote
quote: The resurrection of the body is what sets Christianity apart, as unique, in the religions of the world. Christianity says that the body is good. It is made by God, and He said it is very good. His Son took on a literal body in the Incarnation. He raised up His body and took it to heaven in the Ascension. His plan is to raise up all the redeemed in their bodies. The body is a key part of God's plan for man. God intends to save the bodies of men forever.end quote
quote: The physical body is not some evil thing that we need to escape from (as many non-Christians have taught). Jesus had a physical body, and there was nothing wrong with that.

In fact, Jesus was made flesh for the very purpose of redeeming all things (Col. 1:19-20). God is not abandoning the physical world — he is rescuing it. Romans 8:21 tells us that the physical creation will be liberated from its bondage when we are transformed into glory. This salvation involves the "redemption of our bodies" (v. 23).

Yes, our bodies will be redeemed, not discarded. Our bodies will be raised immortal and imperishable, freed from the decay that affects the physical world today. Christ has made it possible, as shown in his own resurrection with a body that transcends the limits of space and time.end quote


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## Asath (Mar 23, 2013)

"Well my answer to your question is the bible is my authority on which I based my answer and my certainty." 

I guess there is much that can be said in answer to that, and also nothing at all that can be said.  If that sudden disconnect -- the paralysis of further thought that occurs when encountering the impenetrable wall of 'Belief'-- is the final limit of intellectual pursuit and of honest discussion, as is too often the case, then I suppose that all of the various religions on offer have both won and lost their cases.  The walls weren't built high enough.

Each forbids any trespass upon the hallowed ground of their own Belief, while freely denigrating, assailing, insulting, and openly mocking the thoughts of others.  In many parts of the world even today we have folks who consider their Belief to be so sacrosanct that the murder of unbelievers is openly preached by their leaders.  These folks are the modern continuation of the blood-soaked history of the God of Abraham.  Their Belief in the same God Christians believe in gives them sanction to murder you.  The Belief of Christians in the same God the Islamists Believe in gives Christians sanction to defend themselves, to the death, or to the similar murder of the 'infidels'.  Nice.  Y'all built a self-contained, closed loop of endless hostility upon the same foundation.  Good job.

Neither side can be questioned concerning this apparent absurdity.  Each throws up the wall of 'Belief' at the first sign of doubt or honest questioning.  Neither side has answers to the hard questions, and all sides display angry and hostile responses at the mere suggestion that someone here is clearly wrong, and openly declare War at the suggestion that ALL sides might well be wrong.  The fact that this attitude is anti-intellectual, avoids the inconvenience of requiring facts, is based entirely on ancient scribblings of unknown and questionable authenticity, and has as an expressed aim the 'mission' to spread itself, and itself only, to all of humanity -- on every side of the debate -- has led to what we see around us:

Unproven, unprovable, abstract, ever-changing and constantly revised political rationalizations masquerading as fact and aiming for sole conquest of all earthly power to govern.  

If the majority of Believers, of whatever stripe, were like most present themselves here -- simple, private folks who think as they wish to think, and do no harm by it, hurt no one, help many, and wish simply to be left to their own thoughts without intrusion -- well, nobody would have a problem with that.  But that is not the case, and any protest to the contrary is given the lie if only by the existence of this forum.

The very existence of disagreement could not and would not be tolerated in any of the Forums above this one -- so a place had to be set aside in token fairness to the misguided heretics.  But they dare not show their faces anywhere else.  This sort of thing is not a benign and placid manifestation of one's peace and the comfort in one's Belief -- all disagreement with the conventional is subjected to relentless and often vicious attack down here --  it is a hostile respose to a threat that must be contained and compartmentalized and managed.  But this is not unusual, and it is not a criticism, so much as an observation.  Because disagreement IS a threat, and the first basic human instinct is to contain and marginalize any threats, then to defeat them.  Unfortunately, it makes perfect sense.

But in the larger sense -- take this instinct, employed with relative benevolence in this case, but undeniably observed and implemented -- and expand it to the world as the stage.  

Scary, huh?  One side thinks, to the death, that their Bible is right.  Another side thinks, to the death, that their Koran is right.  One side has the advantage of a strong governmental structure that (in theory) prevents one faction from legislating for all, and so has the freedom to think as they wish.  The other side doesn't.  As someone must have thought, even on the small scale of a message board, that allowing free expression (while keeping it tightly controlled) was a worthy ideal, the opposite side allows no such luxury, even on a limited scale.  If you disagree with THEM, they simply kill you.

All this, over a dispute concerning the 'intentions' of the God of Abraham?

Be serious.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 24, 2013)

Asath said:


> "Well my answer to your question is the bible is my authority on which I based my answer and my certainty."
> 
> I guess there is much that can be said in answer to that, and also nothing at all that can be said.  If that sudden disconnect -- the paralysis of further thought that occurs when encountering the impenetrable wall of 'Belief'-- is the final limit of intellectual pursuit and of honest discussion, as is too often the case, then I suppose that all of the various religions on offer have both won and lost their cases.  The walls weren't built high enough.
> 
> ...


I enjoy reading your post. They make me ponder a little deeper than before. This is not the typical redneck that I speak or am accustomed to. I'm am curious about you Mr. Asath. Are you a professor, psychology maybe?


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## panfried0419 (Mar 24, 2013)

Its better to believe and be right than not believe and be wrong! Why do I believe? I fear God. I also believe that Jesus came to this earth to give us a path to salvation. He wanted to heal the hearts of all those who were sinners but wanted to believe. I believe that Jesus' words in the gospels sealed the deal on my belief in the afterlife and how to get there.


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## WTM45 (Mar 24, 2013)

Seems that is a shallow belief and quite self-serving.
But I suspect that is the case for most who believe.  And that is OK.
It just seems strange to some folks.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 24, 2013)

We've discussed that on here before as believing in God out of fear of God and he!!. Better to be right than wrong. I'm hoping people just say that as a last resort when debating with an Atheist.
Although some Christians have said it's all about the fear of he!!. Jesus came to save us from He!!. He came to save us from eternal burning. Living an eternity in Heaven is icing on the cake so to speak. Well some Christians believe "everlasting" life means just that. If you are bad, you die when you die. 
I do fear God though. I have to because I don't believe in "once save, always saved" and not to pick on you Panfried, because I too fear God. So I guess my belief is about rewards and punishment.


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## panfried0419 (Mar 24, 2013)

I mentioned the rewards. Jesus' path to salvation


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## bullethead (Mar 24, 2013)

panfried0419 said:


> Its better to believe and be right than not believe and be wrong! Why do I believe? I fear God. I also believe that Jesus came to this earth to give us a path to salvation. He wanted to heal the hearts of all those who were sinners but wanted to believe. I believe that Jesus' words in the gospels sealed the deal on my belief in the afterlife and how to get there.



panfried, you seem to have it narrowed down to 2 choices when there are literally hundreds of religions to choose from.
So you pick "believe". What if what you are "supposed" to believe in is not the one you currently think it is?
According to your rules you should cover more bases and practice them all????


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## jmharris23 (Mar 24, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> Seems that is a shallow belief and quite self-serving.
> But I suspect that is the case for most who believe.  And that is OK.
> It just seems strange to some folks.



I agree. I am no big fan of "Pascal's Wager." I believe in Jesus Christ because:

1. I believe he was a historical person. I believe that history provides enough evidence to give proof that he in fact walked the earth. 

2. I believe that this person, Jesus, believed himself to be the son of God. 

3. I believe that this belief got him killed. 

4. I believe the New Testament writings concerning the life, death, burial, and ressurection of this person are historically verifiable by any standard used to measure such things and that the writers of the NT believed him to be who he claimed to be and later died for that belief. 

5. These beliefs spur me to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.


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## panfried0419 (Mar 24, 2013)

bullethead said:


> panfried, you seem to have it narrowed down to 2 choices when there are literally hundreds of religions to choose from.
> So you pick "believe". What if what you are "supposed" to believe in is not the one you currently think it is?
> According to your rules you should cover more bases and practice them all????



I didn't say they were my rules now did I? But I did say I believe in believing and not believing. I did not condone/condemn others nor did I say that is "how it is" Already starting the misinterpretation of a direct post I see. Not so clever.No No:


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## panfried0419 (Mar 24, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> Seems that is a shallow belief and quite self-serving.
> But I suspect that is the case for most who believe.  And that is OK.
> It just seems strange to some folks.



It's shallow that I believe that God gave his only Son to lead us through a righteous path to peaceful eternity. Not at all. Is it shallow for missionaries to perform their work or religious leaders to preach the gospel that leads to salvation? Nope.


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## bullethead (Mar 24, 2013)

panfried0419 said:


> I didn't say they were my rules now did I? But I did say I believe in believing and not believing. I did not condone/condemn others nor did I say that is "how it is" Already starting the misinterpretation of a direct post I see. Not so clever.No No:





panfried0419 said:


> *Its better to believe and be right than not believe and be wrong!* Why do I believe? I fear God. I also believe that Jesus came to this earth to give us a path to salvation. He wanted to heal the hearts of all those who were sinners but wanted to believe. I believe that Jesus' words in the gospels sealed the deal on my belief in the afterlife and how to get there.



Who's rules are the ones in bold above?
If I misunderstood that you believe that it is better to believe (in Jesus) and be right rather than to not believe(in Jesus) and be wrong please tell me.
What I asked you is if it is possible that there are more than those 2 clear cut choices being that there are many religions and they have a different story than yours. And if you are a believer and that believing is better than not believeing, why not believe in them all?


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## BuckHunter31 (Mar 24, 2013)

This is for entertainment purposes only since discussing/debating this topic with some people is more or less pointless.

bullethead the "bold" sentence above is most definitely not a "rule." It is simply a statement and an opinion. Though I agree with it I'm sure you've dissected it and "evolved" it into something it isn't. 

Also there is only ONE path. And that is the one where you acknowledge God. Believe in Him. Know that he sent his only begotten Son Jesus Christ to the earth to die on the cross for our sins in order for us to have eternal life in Heaven. And that you accept that fact. No other option is available. Sorry.


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## panfried0419 (Mar 24, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Who's rules are the ones in bold above?
> If I misunderstood that you believe that it is better to believe (in Jesus) and be right rather than to not believe(in Jesus) and be wrong please tell me.
> What I asked you is if it is possible that there are more than those 2 clear cut choices being that there are many religions and they have a different story than yours. And if you are a believer and that believing is better than not believeing, why not believe in them all?



Great we are stuck on repeat. Those aren't rules and never said they were.


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## bullethead (Mar 24, 2013)

panfried0419 said:


> Great we are stuck on repeat. Those aren't rules and never said they were.



Thought it was the rules you live by. Glad you are not so close minded.


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## bullethead (Mar 24, 2013)

BuckHunter31 said:


> This is for entertainment purposes only since discussing/debating this topic with some people is more or less pointless.
> 
> bullethead the "bold" sentence above is most definitely not a "rule." It is simply a statement and an opinion. Though I agree with it I'm sure you've dissected it and "evolved" it into something it isn't.
> 
> Also there is only ONE path. And that is the one where you acknowledge God. Believe in Him. Know that he sent his only begotten Son Jesus Christ to the earth to die on the cross for our sins in order for us to have eternal life in Heaven. And that you accept that fact. No other option is available. Sorry.



More opinion. Thanks


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## panfried0419 (Mar 24, 2013)

Glad you quit being arrogant. Thanks.


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## bullethead (Mar 24, 2013)

panfried0419 said:


> Glad you quit being arrogant. Thanks.


 No Problem


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 24, 2013)

panfried0419 said:


> I mentioned the rewards. Jesus' path to salvation



Yelp, it's hard to look at one without the other. Salvation is being saved from sin and it's consequences, being He!! or no eternal life. Hypothetical question. What if we took He!! out of the equation? Our salvation would be salvation from death and that's it. I don't really expect you to answer that as I couldn't answer it either because I already believe in God, Jesus, Heaven, and a physical fire burning He!!.
It would be interesting though presenting Christianity to others who have never heard: Believe in Jesus and you will have eternal life. That alone should be enough but i'll never personally know. I feel that if I suddenly stopped believing in he!! I would still believe in Jesus' salvation from eternal death.


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## TripleXBullies (Mar 25, 2013)

I see what bullet is saying about the OPINION that he bolded. It's not being arrogant.... You're saying you are better safe than sorry.. when to be REALLY safe, just in case, you should practice more than one religion... All of them would be your safest bet.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 25, 2013)

Asath said:


> All this, over a dispute concerning the 'intentions' of the God of Abraham?
> 
> Be serious.



To be one paradigm shift away from knowing anything at all. Frustrating, isn't it?


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## pnome (Mar 25, 2013)

We are a way for the universe to know itself.  It would be a waste if all that information is simply lost when we die.  So, I hope there is something else besides this mortal coil.


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## ambush80 (Mar 25, 2013)

pnome said:


> We are a way for the universe to know itself.  It would be a waste if all that information is simply lost when we die.  So, I hope there is something else besides this mortal coil.



Wow.  You're out there now......

Is it better?


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## pnome (Mar 25, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Wow.  You're out there now......
> 
> Is it better?



Out there with Carl...


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## ambush80 (Mar 25, 2013)

pnome said:


> Out there with Carl...



Context.  In the entirety of the segment he doesn't imply that the Cosmos has any consciousness, which might be inferred by that snippet.  This is how he really feels:

http://

Strangely, instead of making my existence seem pointless and insignificant I am filled with exuberance by the realization that I am here at all.  Here and now. No afterlife. No do overs. Make it count.


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## pnome (Mar 25, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Context.  In the entirety of the segment he doesn't imply that the Cosmos has any consciousness, which might be inferred by that snippet.



Agreed. My point in my previous comment was that IF we accept that "we are a way for the cosmos to know itself" then, all of that information being lost in death, is a waste.


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## ambush80 (Mar 25, 2013)

pnome said:


> Agreed. My point in my previous comment was that IF we accept that "we are a way for the cosmos to know itself" then, all of that information being lost in death, is a waste.



Maybe from our perspective, which as we know has limitations.

I think about that minnow that I flung off by accident while casting and how i probably ripped his eyes out.  That seemed like a waste.   What am I gonna do?  Quit fishing or try to cast better?  Maybe he went to minnow Heaven, having sacrificed himself for the good of the rest of them.

Besides, who says it leaves the Cosmos?


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## Asath (Mar 28, 2013)

Well, I tried not to do this part, but here it is – “For the non-believer eternity is the complete opposite of this, brokenness, sadness, pain, separation, and other horrors that no one wants to experience.”

Um?  Are we assuming much?  Such as – there is actually an ‘Experience’ of Eternity?  No sale.  Interesting assumption.  But, No.  A demonstration cannot be offered.  Only a description, which is cut whole out of the cloth of the imaginary, and taken whole out of whatever part of the myths one was brain-washed with in childhood.  Show us a single scrap of anything at all  that indicates ‘Eternity,’ in any fashion, and then we can talk.    

This sort of thinking represents a threat that is made to all who fail to obey your own doctrine, and it depends entirely, since it has no basis that can be demonstrated, upon the receptiveness, and prior conditioning, of the audience.  If the audience simply sits back, amused, as many of us do, and says, “Really?, ” then what?  You can’t control us without our consent, and if we withhold that consent you guys are out of business.  You have no product we wish to purchase.  

It is difficult enough to understand just why any rational being would choose to give the only life they will ever have over to the invisible and never delivered promises of mystics, none of whom have ever produced a single thing other than thundering, endlessly revised  rhetoric meant to create fears that they can then grow rich upon – in the here and now – but it is a whole separate leap to jump from one’s own delusions, freely accepted as taught to you by those same mystics, to the condemnation of other peoples equally freely arrived at conclusions.

The non-believers will ‘experience’ an eternity of  “  . . . brokenness, sadness, pain, separation, and other horrors . . . “?   Really?  Who in the name of all that is good and just would have dared to teach anyone such a thing with nothing other than their own assertions to support it?  Are you listening to yourselves?

You can actually, conversationally, offer and promise me Eternal ‘horrors’ for failing to agree with YOUR imaginary interpretation of YOUR imaginary being?  No.  You cannot.

You would need my consent to threaten me with ‘Eternal Horror’ if I fail to do and think as you wish me to do and think – and I’m afraid that I won’t accept that prescription, since it is written in invisible ink on ever-shifting rationalizations offered only by folks who haven’t a single tangible accomplishment or tangible fact to offer in exchange.  This is the threat of terrorists, to any thinking person, and has no basis other than itself.

Not good enough.  

If you cannot show that you are right, on any level or on any basis, then stick with your own thoughts and pursue them peacefully and without intruding on the rest of us.  Your ‘beliefs’ are interesting only to yourselves.  Spend your own money on your Temples, and practice your primitive rituals as you see fit – But if you wish to be left alone to ‘Believe’ as you see fit, then leave the rest of us alone as well, and stay in your little world of delusion.

Reality isn’t interested, and we have better things to do.   

Then this, from Buckhunter—“Also there is only ONE path. And that is the one where you acknowledge God. Believe in Him. Know that he sent his only begotten Son Jesus Christ to the earth to die on the cross for our sins in order for us to have eternal life in Heaven. And that you accept that fact. No other option is available. Sorry.”

How pathetic is that, as a statement?

“ No other option is available.”

Could someone with clear access to this ‘afterlife’ that only the Preachers seem to have knowledge of please do me a favor?  Send a message to Stalin and tell him that he was a Christian after all – he just didn’t know it.  In philosophy, they agree with him completely.  They differ only in the details.


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## jmharris23 (Mar 28, 2013)

Asath, it's clear we don't agree and that's fine. I offered my opinion from a biblical standpoint and said up front that I know you disregard it. 

From your posts last night I gather that you think this forum is an inappropriate place for such conversations to take place. 

I would encourage you to go to the top of this forum and read again that there are three words that start with A. One of them is apologetics, and I know your are intelligent enough to know the definition of the word. 

You tell your side and I'll tell mine. You can call ignorant or pathetic or anything else you want. I know that I am not going to change your mind and that is not my intention. My intention is simply to present my side, and hear yours, which I have no problem doing, and neither should you.


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## Asath (Mar 29, 2013)

Apologetics is that branch of theology concerned with the defense or proof of Christianity.  Not unrestrained preaching.  No problems there.  But a defense is normally not concerned with the condemnation of others to an Eternity of pain.  When it takes that form, without proof other than itself, it is now outside the realm of Apologetics, and is plain old-fashioned fire-and-brimstone proselytizing.  Mildly offered, in this case, but no different philosophically.

The world offers a Baskin-Robbins selection of flavors of beliefs, and if one considers Vanilla to be true, and Mint Chocolate Chip to be nonsense, then it is simply a matter of disagreement over tastes.  But if Apologetics is as benign as it offers itself, concerned with defending its own particular flavor, then I merely observe that an intellectual battle line is deliberately crossed when such defense resorts to condemning all other flavors to an eternity of horrors.  That sort of thing is not defending anything by proof or logic – it is simply threatening consequences for disagreement.

My point, overall, is that I have no problem with honest discussion and debate that keeps to the intellectual and logical defense, avoiding fallacies and unsupportable assertions,  and the offering of genuine, independently verifiable truth.  Flat out preaching that one’s own flavor of choice is unchallenged and unquestionable truth, not subject to the rigor of open and verifiable inquiry demanded of everything else in the world, does not seem to be in the spirit of conversation.  

Non-belief only comes in one flavor, it comes in no various ‘versions,’ and it has been chased out of all the other forums as an offense to those to whom Baskin-Robbins can sell only one flavor.  That seems a bit odd to me on many levels, but I accept that decision.  Yet fairness would seem also to suggest that allowing the cascading Single-Flavor zealots to also have free reign here, set up their tents and bully-pulpits, and continue their attack without any check on it and without at least asking that they stay within the bounds of Apologetics as an intellectual exercise is self-defeating.  It negates the effort made to establish this forum to begin with.

We are expected to respect their boundaries, and we do so.  A bit of quid pro quo seems appropriate and not unfair to ask.


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## fish hawk (Mar 29, 2013)

Asath said:


> Apologetics is that branch of theology concerned with the defense or proof of Christianity.  Not unrestrained preaching.  No problems there.  But a defense is normally not concerned with the condemnation of others to an Eternity of pain.  When it takes that form, without proof other than itself, it is now outside the realm of Apologetics, and is plain old-fashioned fire-and-brimstone proselytizing.  Mildly offered, in this case, but no different philosophically.
> 
> The world offers a Baskin-Robbins selection of flavors of beliefs, and if one considers Vanilla to be true, and Mint Chocolate Chip to be nonsense, then it is simply a matter of disagreement over tastes.  But if Apologetics is as benign as it offers itself, concerned with defending its own particular flavor, then I merely observe that an intellectual battle line is deliberately crossed when such defense resorts to condemning all other flavors to an eternity of horrors.  That sort of thing is not defending anything by proof or logic – it is simply threatening consequences for disagreement.
> 
> ...



You should be happy.You have a whole sub forum dedicated to only a  handful.If you take away the believers that post here then you really wouldn't  have enough traffic to justify it


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## bullethead (Mar 29, 2013)

fish hawk said:


> You should be happy.You have a whole sub forum dedicated to only a  handful.If you take away the believers that post here then you really wouldn't  have enough traffic to justify it



Thanks for helping us out.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 29, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Thanks for helping us out.



Hey, ya'll don't have a forum without Christian input. We have one without Atheist input but we do have to share it with Jews. Maybe it should be the "God of Abraham" forum.
This was just an observation.


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## bullethead (Mar 29, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hey, ya'll don't have a forum without Christian input. We have one without Atheist input but we do have to share it with Jews. Maybe it should be the "God of Abraham" forum.
> This was just an observation.



The extra input in here is appreciated and while discussions would be less entertaining without you guys we probably would not have the in fighting like goes on within the Christian ranks above either. Overall there would be less discussion here but much less disagreement within our own ranks with the things we would discuss.
We have a slight disadvantage in that anytime we do have a discussion is not limited down here like it is above. The Apologetics side is a fantastic contributor but in reality there are not many true Apologetics that defend their faith with rational basis as there are people who just like to offer the same lame biblical and religious rhetoric that obviously didn't work for "us" the first thousand times around and isn't working now either.
 Posters like 1gr8bldr, JB, you(artfuldodger) and a few others try to at least put a spin on it that is non conventional yet defends the faith. BUT, you are the same ones that do not quite fit in above all the time either. Most of the others just drop down a forum and spout the like-minded stuff that they talk about above after they get a few confidence building hi-fives and cyber hugs in agreement where all the Christians hang together. Most of that stuff is not exactly apologetic.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 29, 2013)

bullethead said:


> The extra input in here is appreciated and while discussions would be less entertaining without you guys we probably would not have the in fighting like goes on within the Christian ranks above either. Overall there would be less discussion here but much less disagreement within our own ranks with the things we would discuss.
> We have a slight disadvantage in that anytime we do have a discussion is not limited down here like it is above. The Apologetics side is a fantastic contributor but in reality there are not many true Apologetics that defend their faith with rational basis as there are people who just like to offer the same lame biblical and religious rhetoric that obviously didn't work for "us" the first thousand times around and isn't working now either.
> Posters like 1gr8bldr, JB, you(artfuldodger) and a few others try to at least put a spin on it that is non conventional yet defends the faith. BUT, you are the same ones that do not quite fit in above all the time either. Most of the others just drop down a forum and spout the like-minded stuff that they talk about above after they get a few confidence building hi-fives and cyber hugs in agreement where all the Christians hang together. Most of that stuff is not exactly apologetic.



I just wanted to add we Christians have a Great Commission to witness. So at least you can understand that aspect. I would think my fellow Christians will do the same when the Jehovah Witnesses come around.


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## bullethead (Mar 29, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I just wanted to add we Christians have a Great Commission to witness. So at least you can understand that aspect. I would think my fellow Christians will do the same when the Jehovah Witnesses come around.



I totally understand that is the Christian fine print, but is that really apologetics?


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## jmharris23 (Mar 29, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I totally understand that is the Christian fine print, but is that really apologetics?



From Merriam-Webster: 

Definition of APOLOGETICS

1: systematic argumentative discourse in defense (as of a doctrine)

2: a branch of theology devoted to the defense of the divine origin and authority of Christianity


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## bullethead (Mar 29, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> From Merriam-Webster:
> 
> Definition of APOLOGETICS
> 
> ...



I'm pickin up what your throwin down Jim. Is "the Great Commission to witness" actually Apologetics though?

Here's a little more:
apologetics
   (Concise Encyclopedia)

Branch of Christian theology devoted to the intellectual defense of faith. In Protestantism, apologetics is distinguished from polemics, the defense of a particular sect. In Roman Catholicism, apologetics refers to the defense of the whole of Catholic teaching. Apologetics has traditionally argued positively to quell believers' doubts and negatively against opposing beliefs to remove obstacles to conversion. It attempts to take objections to Christianity seriously without giving ground to skepticism. Biblical apologetics defended Christianity as the culmination of Judaism, with Jesus as the Messiah. In the 2nd and 3rd centuries a number of Christian writers defended the faith against the criticisms of Greco-Roman culture, and in the 5th century St. Augustine wrote his monumental City of God as a response to further criticisms of Christianity following the sack of Rome in 410. John Calvin's “natural theology” attempted to establish religious truths by rational argument. The late 18th-century argument that a universe exhibiting design must have a designer continues to be used; apologists have also dealt with the challenges of Darwinism, Marxism, and psychoanalysis.

Again I totally understand that there are different versions of Apologetics and Apologetic Tactics. The most common on here, and also it seems to be the most ineffective , is the one where "apologists" use biblical scripture to further the point of biblical scripture to people who's main problem with religion is biblical scripture. 
For me, the most interesting apologists are the ones that can have a conversation not limited to biblical scripture and facts that in all honesty just are not even close to being facts at all. Those guys really hold my interest and get my brain thinking along their lines. As soon as someone posts up a verse....they have lost my attention.


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## BuckHunter31 (Mar 30, 2013)

Folks get their feelings hurt to easily. Everytime someone doesn't get along or agree with them tears start flying. Too many cry babies on here sometimes.

Everytime someone states their righteous path and personal beliefs, it's always followed by someone having a defensive break down and dissection of previous posts. 

Tell ya what... I won't post my 0.02 and in return you don't post yours? Would that work? Yea... Didn't think so. You don't see me getting bent out of shape when someone mocks God or in your terms my "imaginary being." 
But I guess if it puts lead in your pencil then by all means continue with your normal programming. Always seems pointless trying to discuss these matters with select individuals.


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## jmharris23 (Mar 30, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Again I totally understand that there are different versions of Apologetics and Apologetic Tactics. The most common on here, and also it seems to be the most ineffective , is the one where "apologists" use biblical scripture to further the point of biblical scripture to people who's main problem with religion is biblical scripture.
> For me, the most interesting apologists are the ones that can have a conversation not limited to biblical scripture and facts that in all honesty just are not even close to being facts at all. Those guys really hold my interest and get my brain thinking along their lines. As soon as someone posts up a verse....they have lost my attention.



I hear that bullet. But the issue here is if you are a Christian, at some point in the conversation, you have to get to scripture? 

We all know that at some point following Christ becomes about faith. Faith, that he was who *the scriptures *say he was. 

I believe he was. You don't. I'm pretty sure that is never going to change, and honestly I am not on this forum with the intention of changing your mind. I like hearing and discussing (if we can call it that) both sides of the coin. 

I am interested in your viewpoint and what you have to say. I don't think for a minute that I can change your mind by throwing scripture at you or as Asath seems to think, the threat of H e l l. 

Honestly for all of us, if our intentions are to change someone's mind, then this is an exercise in futility and possibly the biggest waste of time we are involved in. 

I come to this forum because I like to discuss spiritual (or maybe in this case, non-spiritual) things, and hear what others have to say. 

Anyways, you might have a conversation about the existence of God without scripture involved but if the conversation turns to Christ, then the bible must be thrown into the fray.


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## bullethead (Mar 30, 2013)

BuckHunter31 said:


> Folks get their feelings hurt to easily. Everytime someone doesn't get along or agree with them tears start flying. Too many cry babies on here sometimes.
> 
> Everytime someone states their righteous path and personal beliefs, it's always followed by someone having a defensive break down and dissection of previous posts.
> 
> ...



1.If your referring to someone specifically, use the quote feature so we know who and then what the blazes your talking about.
2. If you are referring to me, since i had the last post in the thread up to that point, I certainly do not have any hurt feelings or am bent out of shape about anything. I am an adult I can take it. In fact I would love to have a special forum where it was adult access only by signing in again with a verified password and only viewable to those that are verified where people did not have to hold back and could say what they really felt. Colorful terms and all. A "Big-Boys" room if you will.


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## bullethead (Mar 30, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> I hear that bullet. But the issue here is if you are a Christian, at some point in the conversation, you have to get to scripture?
> 
> We all know that at some point following Christ becomes about faith. Faith, that he was who *the scriptures *say he was.
> 
> ...



Jim I understand what your saying.

I always understood that Apologetics were to be able to use rational thoughts and arguments to try to explain scripture to those that either do not understand scripture or those that do not agree with scripture. Apologetics were to have the ability to explain it in ways that were more understandable and in terms that were less biblical. Basically they have a knack for using laymens terms.
To discuss scripture, especially with someone who thinks scripture is untrue, and only use more scripture to try to justify it just is not a sound tactic. I am sure it works with like minded individuals as I see it all the time in the Christianity and Judiasm forum. But here, if that is actually an apologetic tactic, it fails to provide anything helpful in getting a point across. I have never seen a "true Apologist" use scripture to try to explain scripture when conversing with a person or people that do not believe in the authenticity or validity of scripture. 

If someone says xyz 4:17 contradicts zyx 17:4, therefore they believe it is all corrupt, it is pointless to come back with a reply telling them to read yxz 1:1.


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## jmharris23 (Mar 30, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Jim I understand what your saying.
> 
> I always understood that Apologetics were to be able to use rational thoughts and arguments to try to explain scripture to those that either do not understand scripture or those that do not agree with scripture. Apologetics were to have the ability to explain it in ways that were more understandable and in terms that were less biblical. Basically they have a knack for using laymens terms.
> To discuss scripture, especially with someone who thinks scripture is untrue, and only use more scripture to try to justify it just is not a sound tactic. I am sure it works with like minded individuals as I see it all the time in the Christianity and Judiasm forum. But here, if that is actually an apologetic tactic, it fails to provide anything helpful in getting a point across. I have never seen a "true Apologist" use scripture to try to explain scripture when conversing with a person or people that do not believe in the authenticity or validity of scripture.
> ...



I am totally with you. That's why I said what I did. I guess the real question we are dealing with here is what the Apologist is "defending." 

If the apologist is making a defense for the existence of God, that can be done without the use of scripture. 

If the apologist is making a defense for the historical man/teacher/rabbi whose name was Jesus of Nazareth being not only a man/teacher/rabbi but also the son of God who died on a cross and was buried and then resurrected, then I do not believe you can make a defense for that without scripture. 

You and I both know that when it comes to Christ and to a lesser degree the existence of God, faith is key. 

At some point logic is always going to break down when you you start speaking of "dead men being raised back to life, ascending to a God in heaven, and sending his spirit to deal with the hearts and lives of men." For this there really is no defense. You either believe it or you don't. I know that. 

I also know that scripture, the gospel, and belief in God and Christ, really make no logical sense.Honestly it seems completely unbelievable and really beyond ridiculous when you apply logic. 

Yet millions have believed it. 

Maybe they (or should I say we) were all weak-minded, ignorant, easily duped individuals looking for hope in something better than this life, and we have attached ourselves to a made up story written by men and compiled into a "Holy Book." 

Maybe we only believe because we've been indoctrinated by our parents, or threatened with H e l l. 

Maybe we believe because we just simply want something to believe in. 

Maybe we believe because we think that there has to be more to life than this.

I could list countless reasons why me might believe. 

Maybe we're wrong. Is it possible we're wrong? Logically and theoretically I suppose it's more than possible, I'll admit that it's probable.

Obviously I don't think I am wrong and while I certainly hope that it never comes to this, I would give my life and to some degree have given my life for this belief. But that is the faith I have in this. 

Do I think I can convince you by anything I say? Absolutely not! 

The only thing I can say with 100% absolute certainty is this,  one day I will die, and one day you will too, and then and only then will we truly know. 

Until then I wish you well, and appreciate your desire for logical and practical truth.


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## bullethead (Mar 30, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> I am totally with you. That's why I said what I did. I guess the real question we are dealing with here is what the Apologist is "defending."
> 
> If the apologist is making a defense for the existence of God, that can be done without the use of scripture.
> 
> ...



Appreciated. Back Atcha Jm. Happy Easter


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## BuckHunter31 (Mar 30, 2013)

bullethead said:


> 1.If your referring to someone specifically, use the quote feature so we know who and then what the blazes your talking about.
> 2. If you are referring to me, since i had the last post in the thread up to that point, I certainly do not have any hurt feelings or am bent out of shape about anything. I am an adult I can take it. In fact I would love to have a special forum where it was adult access only by signing in again with a verified password and only viewable to those that are verified where people did not have to hold back and could say what they really felt. Colorful terms and all. A "Big-Boys" room if you will.



It was directed towards the one and only Asath  Don't know why I didn't hit quote on his post. It was late, I was tired, guess it didn't cross my mind.

Though Asath probably isn't bent out of shape, whenever someone posts something, all he has in response is a break down of what they say with comments or opinions thrown in there. People try to post ABOUT the thread topic and all his posts consists of is a dissection of others posts. Gets old. Had to give him a shout out  

And I would love an adult only forum! Excellent idea. I'm in! 

Take care.


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## Asath (Mar 31, 2013)

"It was directed towards the one and only Asath "

"Folks get their feelings hurt to easily. Everytime someone doesn't get along or agree with them tears start flying. Too many cry babies on here sometimes.

Everytime someone states their righteous path and personal beliefs, it's always followed by someone having a defensive break down and dissection of previous posts. 

Tell ya what... I won't post my 0.02 and in return you don't post yours? Would that work? Yea... Didn't think so. You don't see me getting bent out of shape when someone mocks God or in your terms my "imaginary being." 
But I guess if it puts lead in your pencil then by all means continue with your normal programming. Always seems pointless trying to discuss these matters with select individuals."

Okay.  I'll play.

You see, I thoroughly enjoy watching and learning from the attitudes of the cannibals.  There is much to be learned, even now, from the primitive expressions of aggression contained in the intolerance of dissent.  Simply defending oneself from the relentless attack of the proselytizers offends them so much that they mount these sorts of accusatory counter-offensives.  That these drive-by bits of mockery and accusation are entirely devoid of thoughtful content, reasoned argument, logical connection, or evidence of any kind makes them even more informative, as well as endlessly amusing.

Pay particularly close attention, if one is analyzing such sub-cultures, to the pointed use of the word 'always,' the word 'righteous,' and to the use of dismissal as a tactic of logical refutation.  

Fascinating.

This is the sort of thing that could keep a committee of cultural anthropologists in Vienna busy for a generation.

Add this one to the stew:  " . . . whenever someone posts something, all he has in response is a break down of what they say with comments or opinions thrown in there."

Um?   

There you have it.  

A 'discussion' with the cannibals, does not, it seems, consist of listening to what they have to say, trying to isolate the operative thoughts expressed, and responding to them.  That sort of give and take which makes up an actually intelligent exchange of views "Gets old."  Don't "throw in" comments or opinions, you tiresome fools! -- they were taught to accept what THEY were told at face value, and by golly, when they repeat it thoughtlessly, so should YOU. The message is clear:  

RESISTENCE IS USELESS, SILLY HUMANS! ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!

Just observing.  I couldn't make this stuff up with a panel of comedy writers to help out. The tragi-comedy writes itself, and this is the form it chooses time and again.

On the back of my dollar bill, which is worth far more as a bit of paper and ink than this sort of 'argument,' there is 'The Great Seal,' containing the words 'Novus Ordo Seclorum.'  

If only they had known it would be this silly.

Or maybe they did, and it is just another of the grandest ironies ever codified.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 31, 2013)

I would like to add something that I think is important. Folks are talking about rewards in heaven, and pain and suffering in the other place. In my understanding, the "rewards" will be nothing more than to be in the presence of God (Hallelujah!). The "pain and suffering" will be nothing more (terrible as it is) than the separation from God. There won't be any "prizes" in heaven, and no particular torture in the other place (other than being separated from God).

72 virgins? No, I don't think so. Virginity is a bodily condition. I think only our souls will be in the afterlife. Our bodies will be food for worms. I don't believe animals have souls. They do have a spirit, but not a soul. The soul is eternal. The spirit is but a flicker of energy. The soul transcends the immediate, and extends to eternity.

Many, most, all? civilizations have some tale of the afterlife. Could it be that every human on the planet for all of time is/has been wrong about this. Maybe.

These are my beliefs. This is what I consider the beliefs of Christianity to be.


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