# Why did god let this happen?



## atlashunter (Jun 5, 2018)

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/06/05/pastor-killed-by-crocodile-during-water-baptism.html

Another case of him working in mysterious ways and another case of completely unsurprising if he doesn't exist and one goes for a dunk with crocs.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 5, 2018)

Maybe God believes in "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes" also.


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## atlashunter (Jun 5, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Maybe God believes in "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes" also.



Mark 16
_17 And these signs_ _will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons;_ _they will speak in new tongues;_ _18 they will pick up snakes_ _with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on_ _sick people, and they will get well.”_ 

Nah. Scripture invites believers to play stupid games and promises they won't win stupid prizes.


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## Spotlite (Jun 5, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/06/05/pastor-killed-by-crocodile-during-water-baptism.html
> 
> Another case of him working in mysterious ways and another case of completely unsurprising if he doesn't exist and one goes for a dunk with crocs.


Did you happen to take note to the photo of the lake? And did you notice something right under the photo? It states - *"Abaya Lake is located in Southern Ethiopia and is reported to have a large crocodile population"*

Who`s fault is it if I stepped out in front of a dump truck on the interstate?


Miguel Cervantes said:


> "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes"


Speaks volumes!! But failure to use common sense is not the agenda...........


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 5, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Mark 16
> _17 And these signs_ _will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons;_ _they will speak in new tongues;_ _18 they will pick up snakes_ _with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on_ _sick people, and they will get well.”_
> 
> Nah. Scripture invites believers to play stupid games and promises they won't win stupid prizes.


An Atheist taking snippets of scripture to use in their argument against the fact of whether there is a God or not. Look boys, how cute is that?


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## Spotlite (Jun 5, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Mark 16
> _17 And these signs_ _will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons;_ _they will speak in new tongues;_ _18 they will pick up snakes_ _with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on_ _sick people, and they will get well.”_
> 
> Nah. Scripture invites believers to play stupid games and promises they won't win stupid prizes.



Mark 16:18

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Wrong. You play stupid games you will win stupid prizes. I don't know anyone that plays with snakes or drinks deadly stuff based on that, but if an accident happened, I believe that God will deliver.

Doing something intentional and using scripture for justification reveals nothing but ignorance and or arrogance.


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## 660griz (Jun 5, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Doing something intentional and using scripture for justification reveals nothing but ignorance and or arrogance.



That's what I have been saying all along.


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## Spotlite (Jun 5, 2018)

660griz said:


> That's what I have been saying all along.


Yes I know you have.......... but when scripture is intentionally used to justify swimming with crocs on purpose.........its arrogant.........and when scripture is used to justify the arrogance it becomes ignorance............


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 5, 2018)

Why is it that people think bad things don't happen to Christians?  

We all gotta die sometimes. It is biblical teaching.  As Christians, we just look at death differently.  It is not the end, but just a transition to another realm.  One that is vastly different than the one we are traveling in now.

Don't y'all know that Phillip was stoned to death?  Peter was crucified? John was boiled in hot oil?  All of the people who proclaimed Christ as savior from the late 1800's and back are all dead.  Why?  Because that is the only path to exit this world.  Who cares how you go?  I can't think of a better way to pass than to be doing the work that Christ has called me to do.  Can you?


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## atlashunter (Jun 5, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Mark 16:18
> 
> 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
> 
> ...



"They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them "

How exactly does one "take up" serpents on accident? Nothing in this verse or in verse 17 indicates this applies only to accidents. It says if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them. That isn't just an accident contingency. That is blanket coverage of all cases. Is laying hands on the sick and them recovering also only in accidental cases? Or are we once again playing the "what the bible really meant to say" game?

For someone who doesn't believe there is some overlord in the sky intervening in nature to protect believers this guy did something stupid and paid an expected price. For someone who believes in these scriptures or at least claims to there is a disconnect between the expectations the scriptures set and real world results.

Odd that the bible cites numerous supernatural interventions on behalf of those doing gods work. The miraculous feeding of the masses to hear Jesus preach and the calling down of a bear to eat kids who made fun of a prophets bald head just to name two cases. Yet no intervention on behalf of this preacher baptizing people.


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## atlashunter (Jun 5, 2018)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I can't think of a better way to pass than to be doing the work that Christ has called me to do.  Can you?



I hear there's a job opening doing the lords work in Ethiopia.


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## Spotlite (Jun 5, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> "They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them "
> 
> How exactly does one "take up" serpents on accident? Nothing in this verse or in verse 17 indicates this applies only to accidents. It says if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them. That isn't just an accident contingency. That is blanket coverage of all cases.


I guess you`re not aware that a serpent is not limited to a snake...............

But just for simplicity reasons, I know there are snake handlers out there. Some are even job related at many different levels...........and there is a group that plays with them during service................but I don't know any. I don't even know anyone that does know any of them. I don`t even know anyone that would remain in the building if they pulled the snakes out during service.    

And I really don't know of any folks getting together drinking deadly drinks either............

So...........it appears that the majority of the folks that read that scripture are not getting the same message that you and some of those that are playing with snakes and drinking deadly stuff are getting.


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## 660griz (Jun 5, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> So...........it appears that the majority of the folks that read that scripture are not getting the same message ......



You could pretty much stop there.


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## Spotlite (Jun 5, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> For someone who believes in these scriptures or at least claims to there is a disconnect between the expectations the scriptures set and real world results.
> 
> Odd that the bible cites numerous supernatural interventions on behalf of those doing gods work. The miraculous feeding of the masses to hear Jesus preach and the calling down of a bear to eat kids who made fun of a prophets bald head just to name two cases. Yet no intervention on behalf of this preacher baptizing people.



The disconnect is always the human that thinks he knows everything and has everything under control doing things his way....................

There are even a couple of scriptures for that........."lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths"

If you neglect the first part of that, you might win a stupid prize.


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## Spotlite (Jun 5, 2018)

660griz said:


> You could pretty much stop there.


Could, if it were generically about everyone having a little different understanding of things. But when it is used specifically to try to justify intentional carelessness, or try to prove that God does not exist.........

Might keep a fella from drinking weed killer



Spotlite said:


> So...........it appears that the majority of the folks that read that scripture are not getting the same message that you and some of those that are playing with snakes and drinking deadly stuff are getting.


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## atlashunter (Jun 5, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I guess you`re not aware that a serpent is not limited to a snake...............
> 
> But just for simplicity reasons, I know there are snake handlers out there. Some are even job related at many different levels...........and there is a group that plays with them during service................but I don't know any. I don't even know anyone that does know any of them. I don`t even know anyone that would remain in the building if they pulled the snakes out during service.
> 
> ...



Know any folks who lay hands on the sick in prayer?


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## atlashunter (Jun 5, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> The disconnect is always the human that thinks he knows everything and has everything under control doing things his way....................
> 
> There are even a couple of scriptures for that........."lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths"
> 
> If you neglect the first part of that, you might win a stupid prize.




How exactly does one avoid playing stupid games if they don't depend on their own understanding?


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## Spotlite (Jun 5, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Know any folks who lay hands on the sick in prayer?


Yup. I know plenty, and none of them drink deadly drinks or play with snakes. Is that a requirement?

When you see a man that tries everything possible to stay away from that lake full of crocs, yet he falls in and swims to the other side...........we say "thank God"............you would say but the same exact things happen to non-believers.

But when a man intentionally ignores the fact that the lake is full of crocs and gets in there anyway, we say play stupid games and win stupid prizes.............you try quoting scripture in hopes to prove that God does not exist.

You`re not interested in the Bible and what it says, you want to cherry pick it and use it as a tool to try and prove your own lack of believe in God, and it is miserably failing.

We as Christians that believe in God understand that in cases such as this when people intentionally do things,  they might win a stupid prize.

If nothing else, just good ole walking around sense says to leave snakes and poison alone. Why on earth would you try to justify it using scripture to convince us that that is exactly what those scriptures mean???


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## NCHillbilly (Jun 5, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Mark 16:18
> 
> 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
> 
> ...



You haven't been very far into the mountains, have you? Plenty of churches in Appalachia where they take up serpents and drink strychnine, and hold their hands in flames, and suchlike stuff. A preacher was killed by a timber rattler bite sustained during a sermon right here in my county a decade or so ago.


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## atlashunter (Jun 5, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Yup. I know plenty, and none of them drink deadly drinks or play with snakes. Is that a requirement?



Just shows they cherry pick which scriptures to take seriously and which to ignore.



Spotlite said:


> When you see a man that tries everything possible to stay away from that lake full of crocs, yet he falls in and swims to the other side...........we say "thank God"............you would say but the same exact things happen to non-believers.



Believers have a tendency to call it a miracle and evidence of god. Nonbelievers say some percentage of incidents beat the odds and he was one of them.



Spotlite said:


> But when a man intentionally ignores the fact that the lake is full of crocs and gets in there anyway, we say play stupid games and win stupid prizes.............you try quoting scripture in hopes to prove that God does not exist.



Yeah suddenly god was no longer involved in the outcome. Funny how that works. When things go well he gets credit and it serves as evidence of his existence. When things don't go well then it's just luck of the draw. Atheists say he was one of the ones that didn't beat the odds. In both cases it's what we should expect if there is no supernatural intervention. Some folks survive the risk and some don't. 



Spotlite said:


> You`re not interested in the Bible and what it says, you want to cherry pick it and use it as a tool to try and prove your own lack of believe in God, and it is miserably failing.



There's only one side of this who is counting the hits and ignoring the misses.



Spotlite said:


> We as Christians that believe in God understand that in cases such as this when people intentionally do things,  they might win a stupid prize.



Like when believers who handle venomous snakes and get bit and die or when they drink poison and die? Funny because that is exactly what nonbelievers would say. It's what one could reasonably expect with a nonexistent god. But it should come as quite a surprise to someone that sincerely believes every word of scripture.



Spotlite said:


> If nothing else, just good ole walking around sense says to leave snakes and poison alone. Why on earth would you try to justify it using scripture to convince us that that is exactly what those scriptures mean???



Yeah reason says that. Scripture doesn't. The scripture says shall.

*shall*
  (shăl)
_aux.v._ _Past tense_ *should* (sho͝od)
*1. *Used before a verb in the infinitive to show:
*a. *Something that will take place or exist in the future: We shall arrive tomorrow.
*b. *An order, promise, requirement, or obligation: You shall leave now. He shall answer for his misdeeds. Thepenalty shall not exceed two years in prison.
*c. *The will to do something or have something take place: I shall go out if I feel like it.
*d. *Something that is inevitable: That day shall come.

When the bible says "shall" how ironclad do you consider that promise to be?


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## atlashunter (Jun 5, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> You haven't been very far into the mountains, have you? Plenty of churches in Appalachia where they take up serpents and drink strychnine, and hold their hands in flames, and suchlike stuff. A preacher was killed by a timber rattler bite sustained during a sermon right here in my county a decade or so ago.



Those churches fascinate me. They remind me of some of the churches I came up in as a child. I always thought it would be interesting to visit one some day.


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## NUTT (Jun 5, 2018)

I think the Lord is working on you now: HE has you looking up scripture and all! Fascinated by churches too. Praying for you brother!


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## Spotlite (Jun 5, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> You haven't been very far into the mountains, have you? Plenty of churches in Appalachia where they take up serpents and drink strychnine, and hold their hands in flames, and suchlike stuff. A preacher was killed by a timber rattler bite sustained during a sermon right here in my county a decade or so ago.


Of course, I have an Uncle from East Tenn and one from Boone NC. Spent a few times a year there and in the surrounding area for the last 30 years or so. I didn't say there were not any. I said a few do.


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## atlashunter (Jun 5, 2018)

NUTT said:


> I think the Lord is working on you now: HE has you looking up scripture and all! Fascinated by churches too. Praying for you brother!



BTDT but I appreciate the good wishes.


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## Spotlite (Jun 5, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Yeah reason says that. Scripture doesn't. The scripture says shall.
> 
> *shall*
> (shăl)
> ...



Shall is hinged on circumstances and not a requirement to do. You WILL is a requirement. 

I "shall" do those things and will be protected if and when the need arises..........

But since there is no requirement to play with snakes and I free lance out on my own............I may not.

No a hard concept to grasp.


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## Israel (Jun 5, 2018)

Did I miss something? Was the article very short? 

Presumption, a sin with which I am not unfamiliar, never goes without consequence. 
But I don't see anything to indicate the man was operating in that, nothing at all. A man was attacked and killed by a crocodile. It says nothing about his attitude regarding what "the lake is known for", nor even if he himself knew. But regardless, dens full of lions or furnaces heated to seven times...it would be to our shame to presume...the man was being either ignorant or presumptuous.
Faith takes as many forms as "what's that to you?...you follow me..."
And I'd be a little more cautious, and a lot less cavalier deciding the man won a prize for stupidity.
A man may be persuaded to appear in the most horrific circumstance to onlookers, and even to himself...by the grace of God.
Such a man may bear testimony to, and of Jesus Christ, that onlookers have not yet begun to enter into.
But, I don't say these things as one who exceeds any in piety, just as one having had some very precious stripes laid to him in his presumptions.
Pain is a great attention getter...if all else is to no remedy.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 5, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> I hear there's a job opening doing the lords work in Ethiopia.




Not my calling, but I have been to India and Jamaica working in orphanages and helping with a drug rehab center in Kingston.  Maybe God is calling you to work there, since you were drawn to this story and saw the need.


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## atlashunter (Jun 5, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Shall is hinged on circumstances and not a requirement to do. You WILL is a requirement.
> 
> I "shall" do those things and will be protected if and when the need arises..........
> 
> ...



Very well. Here it is in the New International Version.

_17 And these signs_ _will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons;_ _they will speak in new tongues;_ _18 they will pick up snakes_ _with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on_ _sick people, and they will get well.”_ 

Except that promise of what will happen doesn't always pan out does it? In fact there's no evidence that any of these things are more likely to happen in favor of believers than in favor of anyone else. That evidence should be readily abundant if the scriptures were true.


How about this one?

*Romans 10:13 New King James Version (NKJV)*
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”


Or this one?

*Acts 2:21 New King James Version (NKJV)*
21 And it shall come to pass
_That_ whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’

This?

*Mark 16:16 King James Version (KJV)*
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

How about this?

*Romans 14:11 King James Version (KJV)*
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.




Something a believer can really count on? Or does it really mean to say may or may not happen depending on the circumstances in accidental cases?


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## Spotlite (Jun 5, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> In fact there's no evidence that any of these things are more likely to happen in favor of believers than in favor of anyone else. That evidence should be readily abundant if the scriptures were true.


If you were 100% completely confident that your statement is true, you’d be at rest with your conclusion 

Look up the definition of hinged and read your scriptures again.


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## atlashunter (Jun 5, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> If you were 100% completely confident that your statement is true, you’d be at rest with your conclusion
> 
> Look up the definition of hinged and read your scriptures again.



It's easily put to the test and yes I'm as confident it's true as you are that having faith in a milk carton has zero effectiveness.


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## atlashunter (Jun 5, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Something a believer can really count on? Or does it really mean to say may or may not happen depending on the circumstances in accidental cases?


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## blood on the ground (Jun 5, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> You haven't been very far into the mountains, have you? Plenty of churches in Appalachia where they take up serpents and drink strychnine, and hold their hands in flames, and suchlike stuff. A preacher was killed by a timber rattler bite sustained during a sermon right here in my county a decade or so ago.


Can you imagine being a first time visitor at a church like that!


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 5, 2018)

blood on the ground said:


> Can you imagine being a first time visitor at a church like that!



you know how they get the visitors excited?  raise the lid on the snake box, and say ' Cousin Zeke, weren't there 3 snakes in here earlier?'


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## blood on the ground (Jun 5, 2018)

NE GA Pappy said:


> you know how they get the visitors excited?  raise the lid on the snake box, and say ' Cousin Zeke, weren't there 3 snakes in here earlier?'


LOL .... Id like to see the show!


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## Spotlite (Jun 5, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> It's easily put to the test and yes I'm as confident it's true as you are that having faith in a milk carton has zero effectiveness.



So that means that you can go on record and state that you’re 100% positive beyond a shadow of a doubt?




atlashunter said:


> 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”             "shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them"
> Something a believer can really count on? Or does it really mean to say may or may not happen depending on the circumstances in accidental cases?





atlashunter said:


>



I can see that you didn’t research “hinge”.

hinge - to be dependent or contingent on, or as if on, a hinge (usually followed by on or upon) "everything hinges on his decision"

Do you have car insurance? Are you promised to receive the required protection to be legal under state law if you pay your premiums? Sort of hinges on you paying, right?

And if you have an accident, do they state that they will cover the damages? Or is that protection "hinging" on circumstances........or are you  allowed to run around hit cars on purpose all day?

I shall grow old........is that a promise that no matter how I treat my body, I will grow old? 

If you want to get scriptural........... "don`t tempt the Lord"


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 6, 2018)

Clearly somebody doesn't understand the context of "saved" in the use of the scriptures they are misquoting. But when a human considers himself smarter than God, what would you expect.


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## Spotlite (Jun 6, 2018)

Israel said:


> Did I miss something? Was the article very short?
> 
> Presumption, a sin with which I am not unfamiliar, never goes without consequence.
> But I don't see anything to indicate the man was operating in that, nothing at all. A man was attacked and killed by a crocodile. It says nothing about his attitude regarding what "the lake is known for", nor even if he himself knew. But regardless, dens full of lions or furnaces heated to seven times...it would be to our shame to presume...the man was being either ignorant or presumptuous.
> ...



Generally speaking, play stupid games and win stupid prizes means just that. Has nothing to do with loosing salvation. 

 You dont run into a burning house......or play with deadly stuff just for fun. That’s playing a stupid game. The stupid prize you win is you might get burnt. Who’s fault is that?? That’s the topic of this thread, blaming God for things that people do.


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## 660griz (Jun 6, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> But when a man intentionally ignores the fact that the lake is full of crocs and gets in there anyway, we say play stupid games and win stupid prizes.............you try quoting scripture in hopes to prove that God does not exist.


So, you are saying, around that guys area in Nigeria, there was a body of water that didn't have any crocs and he chose the one full of crocs. Perhaps all the bodies of water had crocs but, that one was the one they had always used and God protected them...except this time. 

I know there are poisonous snakes in the woods. Is it a stupid game to go in the woods? I drive on 285 to work. Stupid game? 
What you might call a stupid game, some folks may do everyday for livelihood. Croc attacks are pretty common in Africa. Folks have to get water. Crocs in the water. Stupid game?
He didn't go in to wrestle the crocs with a bleeding catfish around his neck. I think you should rethink 'stupid game'.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 6, 2018)

There are no poisonous snakes anywhere in the world.


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## 660griz (Jun 6, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> There are no poisonous snakes anywhere in the world.


Venomous?  Ruin a day? 2 steps?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 6, 2018)

660griz said:


> Venomous?  Ruin a day? 2 steps?


Venomous would be correct.


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## bullethead (Jun 6, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Clearly somebody doesn't understand the context of "saved" in the use of the scriptures they are misquoting. But when a human considers himself smarter than God, what would you expect.


For some it is easier to consider oneself rather than consider things(real or make believe) that have absolutely zero impact in their lives.


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> So that means that you can go on record and state that you’re 100% positive beyond a shadow of a doubt?



Yep. As close to 100% as one can get on matters like this. We've been over this a million times on this forum. There is zero evidence that prayer works. There is also scant interest on the part of christians to show in controlled experiments that it works. If it was as effective as claimed the evidence would be readily abundant. It's not. Don't tell me it works. Show me.






Spotlite said:


> I can see that you didn’t research “hinge”.
> 
> hinge - to be dependent or contingent on, or as if on, a hinge (usually followed by on or upon) "everything hinges on his decision"
> 
> ...



Mark 16:17 says _"And these signs_ _will accompany those who believe:_ "

There is your "hinge". Do you believe? Bible says these signs WILL accompany you as a believer. So let's put that to the test shall we? If following scripture is "tempting the lord" then you may as well throw the whole book in the garbage. If laying hands on the sick and praying for them isn't tempting god then neither is drinking poison because the capability of doing both comes from the same verse. Why cherry pick? Not much of a demonstration of faith and certainly not a way to discourage people from playing stupid games. If you can drink deadly poison and handle deadly snakes with impunity then it's reasonable for a believer to think they can swim in croc infested waters. But you can't drink deadly poison without harm and preachers can't baptize people with crocs without possibly getting eaten. That happens to be exactly the results we should expect if the bible was false and god didn't exist.


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## j_seph (Jun 6, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Mark 16:18
> 
> 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
> 
> ...


our pastor says to do stupid things you got to be tough lol


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## j_seph (Jun 6, 2018)

"Additionally, the Bible tells us that we should not tempt God by deliberately placing ourselves in potential danger (Matthew 4:5, 7). Based on these scriptures, we can conclude that God does not want us to handle poisonous snakes today to prove we are Christians. We can also be assured that God continues to perform miracles in healing and protecting those who trust and believe in Him. "


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 6, 2018)

j_seph said:


> "Additionally, the Bible tells us that we should not tempt God by deliberately placing ourselves in potential danger (Matthew 4:5, 7). Based on these scriptures, we can conclude that God does not want us to handle poisonous snakes today to prove we are Christians. We can also be assured that God continues to perform miracles in healing and protecting those who trust and believe in Him. "


You must be wrong. The Atheist clearly have a vastly superior knowledge of the Bible and how to prove God does not exist using pick and choose scriptures from the Bible. (si)


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## Spotlite (Jun 6, 2018)

j_seph said:


> our pastor says to do stupid things you got to be tough lol


Lol yea if you’re going to be stupid, you gotta be tough!


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## 660griz (Jun 6, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> You must be wrong. The Atheist clearly have a vastly superior knowledge of the Bible


This is true.

A new Pew survey is pretty much guaranteed to ruffle the feathers of the faithful. In a survey of religious knowledge, Americans did fairly poorly, displaying little knowledge of world religions. More provocatively, Americans did not even know much about their _own_ religions. A shocking forty-five percent of Catholics incorrectly answered a question about Catholicism and Communion, for example. To make matters worse, it seems that those who scored highest on this survey were, in fact, atheists and agnostics.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 6, 2018)

660griz said:


> This is true.
> 
> A new Pew survey is pretty much guaranteed to ruffle the feathers of the faithful. In a survey of religious knowledge, Americans did fairly poorly, displaying little knowledge of world religions. More provocatively, Americans did not even know much about their _own_ religions. A shocking forty-five percent of Catholics incorrectly answered a question about Catholicism and Communion, for example. To make matters worse, it seems that those who scored highest on this survey were, in fact, atheists and agnostics.


Catholics............well............there it is. A Thank God grip on the cliff of reality for all of you Atheist to cling too.


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## Spotlite (Jun 6, 2018)

660griz said:


> So, you are saying, around that guys area in Nigeria, there was a body of water that didn't have any crocs and he chose the one full of crocs. Perhaps all the bodies of water had crocs but, that one was the one they had always used and God protected them...except this time.
> 
> I know there are poisonous snakes in the woods. Is it a stupid game to go in the woods? I drive on 285 to work. Stupid game?
> What you might call a stupid game, some folks may do everyday for livelihood. Croc attacks are pretty common in Africa. Folks have to get water. Crocs in the water. Stupid game?
> He didn't go in to wrestle the crocs with a bleeding catfish around his neck. I think you should rethink 'stupid game'.


It would be a fair assessment to say there are a lot of assumptions and facts that neither of us know. I can rethink the stupid game, the question is can the non believer rethink their position that God is at fault?? Unless they have all of the facts, which we’ve established there’s alot of unknowns here.


----------



## 660griz (Jun 6, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> the question is can the non believer rethink their position that God is at fault??



Read your question again.


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> It would be a fair assessment to say there are a lot of assumptions and facts that neither of us know. I can rethink the stupid game, the question is can the non believer rethink their position that God is at fault?? Unless they have all of the facts, which we’ve established there’s alot of unknowns here.



If there is a god and if the bible is true then one should expect this god protects folks while they are carrying out his instructions. Believers are always praying for his protection which would indicate they think there is intervention on their behalf. I wonder how many prayers were said on behalf of this preacher while his fellow believers were struggling to save him? Yet nature took its course just as we would expect if god didn't exist at all. To say it's his fault presumes his existence. Nonbelievers don't make that presumption. I don't think it was his fault. I think this is exactly the outcome one might expect absent the protection of a deity. The absence of that protection is easily explained if the deity doesn't exist. Not so easy for believers whose bible says you can drink any deadly thing and handle deadly snakes and will not be harmed. Meanwhile some believer is finding a lost wedding ring on a beach and finding divine intervention in it.


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

660griz said:


> Read your question again.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 6, 2018)

660griz said:


> Read your question again.


Based on new info. I rethunk the stupid game.......he might have made a stupid decision.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...-in-an-ethiopian-lake-a-crocodile-killed-him/


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## Spotlite (Jun 6, 2018)

660griz said:


> Read your question again.


Because you and I both know that the real agenda here........the non believer must continuously prove his lack of belief.


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 6, 2018)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Why is it that people think bad things don't happen to Christians?
> 
> We all gotta die sometimes. It is biblical teaching.  As Christians, we just look at death differently.  It is not the end, but just a transition to another realm.  One that is vastly different than the one we are traveling in now.
> 
> Don't y'all know that Phillip was stoned to death?  Peter was crucified? John was boiled in hot oil?  All of the people who proclaimed Christ as savior from the late 1800's and back are all dead.  Why?  Because that is the only path to exit this world.  Who cares how you go?  I can't think of a better way to pass than to be doing the work that Christ has called me to do.  Can you?



actually according to the bible death is not the only way to exit this world. Quite a few bible characters ascended straight up into heaven without ever tasting death - ten seconds before this crocodile showed up would have been a good time to revive the tradition. Already covered but:
"an area known to have a huge crocodile population" should be a red flag to whomever did the recon & risk assessment for this mission.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> If there is a god and if the bible is true then one should expect this god protects folks while they are carrying out his instructions.


This is the rich part. An atheist laying down parameters for God to operate under based on his own misguided understanding of the Bible and operating from a position of total lack of faith.  You really can't make this stuff up!!!


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## 660griz (Jun 6, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Based on new info. I rethunk the stupid game.......he might have made a stupid decision.
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...-in-an-ethiopian-lake-a-crocodile-killed-him/


I agree. Doing what 'God' 'called' him to do. This is supposed to be reserved for missionaries.


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 6, 2018)

blood on the ground said:


> Can you imagine being a first time visitor at a church like that!



I can imagine being a last time visitor that's for sure! Doesn't the bible say "thou shall not put thy lord (your god) to the test"? Or am I misinterpreting this phrase?


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## 660griz (Jun 6, 2018)

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. 
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. 
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? 
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”     
―     Epicurus

I realize a Croc is not evil. Just hungry. 
A better answer from the believers would have been, "God wanted him." or, "He is going to a much better place. What's the problem?" or, "Death is something to look forward to." or, " He died doing God's work. Glory be to God." 
I really didn't expect the 'stupid games', argument.


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## Spotlite (Jun 6, 2018)

660griz said:


> I agree. Doing what 'God' 'called' him to do. This is supposed to be reserved for missionaries.


Didn’t mean for that to go too high? Murky waters with a shortage fish with  aggressive force where a human has no chance to see them......

Just trying to keep it simple.


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## Spotlite (Jun 6, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Didn’t mean for that to go too high? Murky waters with a shortage fish with  aggressive crocs  where a human has no chance to see them......
> 
> Just trying to keep it simple.


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## 660griz (Jun 6, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Murky waters with a shortage fish with  aggressive force where a human has no chance to see them......
> .


I think that is called Africa.


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## Spotlite (Jun 6, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> This is the rich part. An atheist laying down parameters for God to operate under based on his own misguided understanding of the Bible and operating from a position of total lack of faith.  You really can't make this stuff up!!!


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

j_seph said:


> "Additionally, the Bible tells us that we should not tempt God by deliberately placing ourselves in potential danger (Matthew 4:5, 7). Based on these scriptures, we can conclude that God does not want us to handle poisonous snakes today to prove we are Christians. We can also be assured that God continues to perform miracles in healing and protecting those who trust and believe in Him. "




Matthew and Mark are two different authors. If they say two different things, one being that you shouldn't place yourself in potential danger and other that you can and WILL as a sign and do it without being harmed then you've got a contradiction and have to decide which one is telling the truth. Or you find a way to resolve the contradiction in which case what Mark says is true and we should see the evidence of that truth.

Even if you limit Mark to those cases in which the exposure to harm is inadvertent and not done with the intention of putting god to the test this incident would still fall into the former group. This guy wasn't willfully interacting with a croc to prove god would save him. He was just going about his business of baptizing people. Would be no different from a preacher here baptizing people and being bitten by a venomous snake. If you can't even count on the promise in Mark 16 in that situation then where exactly is the sign that these beliefs offer the believer any protection at all?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> If you can't even count on the promise in Mark 16 in that situation then where exactly is the sign that these beliefs offer the believer any protection at all?


You are assuming, in this story, that just because he was a preacher his faith was absolute. The answer to that one is one that none of us will know.


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## Spotlite (Jun 6, 2018)

660griz said:


> I think that is called Africa.


So...........the change from crocs being a tourist attraction and becoming aggressive due to the lack of fish in that lake should not have been considered??? Right.


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## j_seph (Jun 6, 2018)

“They only managed to get his dead body,” added Kanko, an officer from Arba Minch, 300 miles south of the Ethiopian capital, Addis Ababa. “They were unable to save him.” 

Yup, by Grace we are saved not by man


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> You are assuming, in this story, that just because he was a preacher his faith was absolute. The answer to that one is one that none of us will know.



That's a convenient retreat since we can't read minds and know for sure how deeply a belief is held. I wonder, if a church was poisoned would it be the position of the survivors that all of those who died must not have been true believers and therefore must be roasting? What do you think?


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## 660griz (Jun 6, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> So...........the change from crocs being a tourist attraction and becoming aggressive due to the lack of fish in that lake should not have been considered??? Right.


Not sure. Do you think he got Fox News?

I definitely would have considered it. Of course, I would not be in the lake baptizing folks either. In the lake...(period) I have only me. No God.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> That's a convenient retreat since we can't read minds and know for sure how deeply a belief is held. I wonder, if a church was poisoned would it be the position of the survivors that all of those who died must not have been true believers and therefore must be roasting? What do you think?


I think you speculate too much in your feeble attempt to prove that something you vehemently don't believe in doesn't exist. It makes me wonder about your security as an Atheist.


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

j_seph said:


> “They only managed to get his dead body,” added Kanko, an officer from Arba Minch, 300 miles south of the Ethiopian capital, Addis Ababa. “They were unable to save him.”
> 
> Yup, by Grace we are saved not by man



So you're one of those who forego man made healthcare and just trust solely in faith?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> So you're one of those who forego man made healthcare and just trust solely in faith?


Again, you misconstrue the meaning of "saved".


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I think you speculate too much in your feeble attempt to prove that something you vehemently don't believe in doesn't exist. It makes me wonder about your security as an Atheist.



That's what I thought.


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Again, you misconstrue the meaning of "saved".



The cited passage from the article was referring to physically saving the man.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> The cited passage from the article was referring to physically saving the man.


And you have consistently attempted to blend it with scripture that wasn't about physically saving men.


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> And you have consistently attempted to blend it with scripture that wasn't about physically saving men.



Nope. You just missed the point. Whether the saving in those passages was physical or spiritual was not the point. The point was that the same word "shall" was used as in Mark 16 which some seem to interpret as "might possibly under the right circumstances".


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Nope. You just missed the point. Whether the saving in those passages was physical or spiritual was not the point. The point was that the same word "shall" was used as in Mark 16 which some seem to interpret as "might possibly under the right circumstances".


The word "Shall" did not exist in the original text of Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic. Take it up with those that translated the texts.


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> The word "Shall" did not exist in the original text of Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic. Take it up with those that translated the texts.




So which verses exactly are mistranslations?


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 6, 2018)

660griz said:


> Not sure. Do you think he got Fox News?
> 
> I definitely would have considered it. Of course, I would not be in the lake baptizing folks either. In the lake...(period) I have only me. No God.


I can agree with you here. I wouldn’t have went in either. And I don’t know if he got Fox News, but I’m sure their folks reported news to fox. Which is why I said there’s alot that neither of us know.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> So which verses exactly are mistranslations?


Is this really that difficult? If the word "shall" did not exist in any of the original text languages then I suppose you'd best familiarize yourself with the Interlinear Scripture in order to find the word origins in each instance it was used. Otherwise folks of faith might not believe that you have a clue what you are talking about. Tragic, I know.


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## Israel (Jun 6, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Generally speaking, play stupid games and win stupid prizes means just that. Has nothing to do with loosing salvation.
> 
> You dont run into a burning house......or play with deadly stuff just for fun. That’s playing a stupid game. The stupid prize you win is you might get burnt. Who’s fault is that?? That’s the topic of this thread, blaming God for things that people do.



Oh, you have assumed he was baptizing...just for fun?


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Yep. As close to 100% as one can get on matters like this. There is zero evidence that prayer works.


But still not 100%. Which leaves room. Do you have the evidence to prove your claim?


atlashunter said:


> If there is a god and if the bible is true


But you don’t really believe that  with assurance.


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## 660griz (Jun 6, 2018)

I think, in certain situations, prayer works for much the same reason placebos work.


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## Spotlite (Jun 6, 2018)

Israel said:


> Oh, you have assumed he was baptizing...just for fun?


Nope. You’re getting off on a cow trail.


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Is this really that difficult? If the word "shall" did not exist in any of the original text languages then I suppose you'd best familiarize yourself with the Interlinear Scripture in order to find the word origins in each instance it was used. Otherwise folks of faith might not believe that you have a clue what you are talking about. Tragic, I know.



You still haven't answered the question. Which verses are mistranslations? If the translation is good then what is your point? Do you speak Greek or Hebrew? Is the original Greek used in Mark 16 different from the Greek used in the other verses? Is the english translation true to the original meaning? If it's not then why are believers using it?

Words mean things. The word "shall" has a meaning. What I'd like to know is why believers take that word seriously when it promises them salvation but far less seriously when it promises them safety from drinking poison?


----------



## j_seph (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> So you're one of those who forego man made healthcare and just trust solely in faith?


I am one of those who got saved by God's amazing grace trough the blood of Jesus Christ. I have healthcare and thank God for it. I also do not believe that it is through man that I have healthcare. Nor through man that I have a job that provides the said healthcare for myself and my family. Everything I have and do not have, all that I have been through and been carried through I give God the credit for.


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> But still not 100%. Which leaves room. Do you have the evidence to prove your claim?



Yes there is room for me to change my mind if the evidence warrants it. The evidence that something doesn't work is that it doesn't work. Where is your evidence that it does work? How do you explain the results of this study on intercessory prayer?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

j_seph said:


> I am one of those who got saved by God's amazing grace trough the blood of Jesus Christ. I have healthcare and thank God for it. I also do not believe that it is through man that I have healthcare. Nor through man that I have a job that provides the said healthcare for myself and my family. Everything I have and do not have, all that I have been through and been carried through I give God the credit for.



If it's not through man that you have healthcare then you have no need of doctors, nurses, hospitals, man made medicines, or man made insurance to pay for them.

"We hear much about His patience and forbearance and long-suffering; we hear nothing about our own, which much exceeds it. We hear much about His mercy and kindness and goodness - in words - the words of His Book and of His pulpit - and the meek multitude is content with this evidence, such as it is, seeking no further; but whoso searcheth after a concreted sample of it will in time acquire fatigue. There being no instances of it. For what are gilded as mercies are not in any recorded case more than mere common justices, and due - due without thanks or compliment. To rescue without personal risk a cripple from a burning house is not a mercy, it is a mere commonplace duty; anybody would do it that could. And not by proxy, either - delegating the work but confiscating the credit for it. If men neglected "God’s poor" and "God’s stricken and helpless ones" as He does, what would become of them? The answer is to be found in those dark lands where man follows His example and turns his indifferent back upon them: they get no help at all; they cry, and plead and pray in vain, they linger and suffer, and miserably die. If you will look at the matter rationally and without prejudice, the proper place to hunt for the facts of His mercy, is not where man does the mercies and He collects the praise, but in those regions where He has the field to Himself." ~Mark Twain


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## furtaker (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Yes there is room for me to change my mind if the evidence warrants it. The evidence that something doesn't work is that it doesn't work. Where is your evidence that it does work? How do you explain the results of this study on intercessory prayer?
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567



Why do you dismiss 86.47% of the Bible as innacurate, mistranslated fairy tales but believe every anti-Christian study that you read on the internet?


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## j_seph (Jun 6, 2018)

furtaker said:


> Why do you dismiss 86.47% of the Bible as innacurate, mistranslated fairy tales but believe every anti-Christian study that you read on the internet?


Because internet was not around back then ;-)


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## goodshot (Jun 6, 2018)

That is an interesting point furtaker!
My take on the original post is that in this age Holy Spirit guides us in all truth, what we do with it is our responsibility. A warning of crocodile infestation going unheeded maybe be the result.
best wishes


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

furtaker said:


> Why do you dismiss 86.47% of the Bible as innacurate, mistranslated fairy tales but believe every anti-Christian study that you read on the internet?



How is a study on intercessory prayer "anti-Christian"? And why should you find it surprising that someone might find studies a better tool to discovering what is true than blind acceptance of mythology?


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## Spotlite (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Yes there is room for me to change my mind if the evidence warrants it.


That’s fair enough. Thanks for clarifying that. For some there is no room for change.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> You still haven't answered the question. Which verses are mistranslations? If the translation is good then what is your point? Do you speak Greek or Hebrew? Is the original Greek used in Mark 16 different from the Greek used in the other verses? Is the english translation true to the original meaning? If it's not then why are believers using it?
> 
> Words mean things. The word "shall" has a meaning. What I'd like to know is why believers take that word seriously when it promises them salvation but far less seriously when it promises them safety from drinking poison?


I've answered your question in spades and even given you a direction to look to study up on the why's. This is the second thread you have ignored such advice. Just because you don't like the answers doesn't make them wrong.


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I've answered your question in spades and even given you a direction to look to study up on the why's. This is the second thread you have ignored such advice. Just because you don't like the answers doesn't make them wrong.



I asked you which verses exactly were mistranslations. You haven't answered that.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> I asked you which verses exactly were mistranslations. You haven't answered that.


I most certainly did answer. Any verse with the word 'shall' in it. There are roughly 900 english translations of the Bible. I have no clue which one you are using to gain your superior knowledge of the subject over everyone else in the world, but unless you are using a translated version from the original text you are thumbing your nose to the wind. Now, quit your whining and do your homework homey.


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> The evidence that something doesn't work is that it doesn't work. Where is your evidence that it does work? How do you explain the results of this study on intercessory prayer?
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I most certainly did answer. Any verse with the word 'shall' in it. Now, quit your whining and do your homework homey.



Any verse with the word "shall" in it is a mistranslation? What then is the proper translation? For that matter what is the original Greek word?


----------



## j_seph (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Any verse with the word "shall" in it is a mistranslation? What then is the proper translation? For that matter what is the original Greek word?


ἄνθρωπος, ου, ὁ


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Any verse with the word "shall" in it is a mistranslation? What then is the proper translation? For that matter what is the original Greek word?


For the last time, since you seem to be so hard headed for someone that holds themselves in such high esteem. Use the Interlinear Bible for the original text and how it was translated. You can even pick and choose the verse you desire (your amply practiced at that) right down to the very word you wish to know about.

Cute meme, but applied in the wrong direction. Most of what you claim bears no foundation other than Atlashunters brain, which is to be highly suspect given it's lack of ability to follow directions. 

Now, do your own homework.


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> For the last time, since you seem to be so hard headed for someone that holds themselves in such high esteem. Use the Interlinear Bible for the original text and how it was translated. You can even pick and choose the verse you desire (your amply practiced at that) right down to the very word you wish to know about.
> 
> Cute meme, but applied in the wrong direction. Most of what you claim bears no foundation other than Atlashunters brain, which is to be highly suspect given it's lack of ability to follow directions.
> 
> Now, do your own homework.



That would be your homework. You made the claim that the use of shall in every verse is a mistranslation. Substantiate your claim. Don't ask me to do it for you. While you're at it be sure to let your fellow believers know that when the bible says "shall be saved" it doesn't actually mean what it says.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> That would be your homework. You made the claim that the use of shall in every verse is a mistranslation. Substantiate your claim. Don't ask me to do it for you. While you're at it be sure to let your fellow believers know that when the bible says "shall be saved" it doesn't actually mean what it says.



There are a lot of mistranslations in the Bible mainly due to "A"- the word now used didn't exist when it was written in the original language and text, and "B" the fact that it has been translated in every language in the world multiple different times and in multiple dialects of all of those languages. 

It is you that seems to think you are the authority to use it in YOUR argument against the existence of God. One would think that someone that is so high on themselves and their opinion would want to make sure they are 100% correct in their claims when using a source to validate their argument. 

I am fine with you looking like a fool by using whatever text and translation you insist on using. It is actually quite comical and entertaining. I feel no need to help you out if you don't feel the need to help yourself out.


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> There are a lot of mistranslations in the Bible mainly due to "A"- the word now used didn't exist when it was written in the original language and text, and "B" the fact that it has been translated in every language in the world multiple different times and in multiple dialects of all of those languages.
> 
> It is you that seems to think you are the authority to use it in YOUR argument against the existence of God. One would think that someone that is so high on themselves and their opinion would want to make sure they are 100% correct in their claims when using a source to validate their argument.
> 
> I am fine with you looking like a fool by using whatever text and translation you insist on using. It is actually quite comical and entertaining. I feel no need to help you out if you don't feel the need to help yourself out.



You still haven't shown it's a mistranslation. It's not my translation. It's what english speaking christians use. It very well may be a mistranslation but so far you haven't shown that to be the case and I doubt it's the case in every single use of the word shall as you have claimed. Nor have you said what you think the proper translation would be. Even if we assume you actually know better than the numerous translators who have produced the various english translations of the bible (a stretch that even the most credulous believer dare not make) then what would we be left with but a verse that makes the remarkable claim that dying from handling venomous snakes and drinking poison is a sign from god?  Incredible!


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Words mean things. The word "shall" has a meaning. What I'd like to know is why believers take that word seriously when it promises them salvation but far less seriously when it promises them safety from drinking poison?


Believers don’t take it more seriously in some aspects and less in others. 

Words do have meanings, and depending on how they are used changes what they mean. 

You shall go to the restroom is a permission.

You shall pay your taxes is a requirement. 

“shall” can be also hinged (contingent) - cut that grass and you shall receive money. 

“


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Believers don’t take it more seriously in some aspects and less in others.
> 
> Words do have meanings, and depending on how they are used changes what they mean.
> 
> ...



Here is the definition:

*shall*
past should play \shəd, ˈshu̇d\; present singular and plural shall
auxiliary verb
1archaic
a *: *will have to *: *must
b *: *will be able to *: *can
2a —used to express a command or exhortation

you shall go
b —used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory

it shall be unlawful to carry firearms
3a —used to express what is inevitable or seems likely to happen in the future

we shallhave to be ready
we shall see
b —used to express simple futurity

when shall we expect you
4—used to express determination

they shall not pass

In the context of Mark 16 it matters not whether you apply the "must" or the "can" definition. The bottom line is that they are supposed to be protected.


----------



## Spotlite (Jun 6, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> One would think that someone that is so high on themselves and their opinion would want to make sure they are 100% correct in their claims when using a source to validate their argument.


----------



## Israel (Jun 6, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Nope. You’re getting off on a cow trail.



The man was not playing with a crocodile. The man was baptizing. The brother...was baptizing.
The OP and the motive for the OP is on the shoulders of he who posted it. How the leap is made (seemingly in defense of God and His motives) need not include any sort of assumption to a presumption that this brother was doing anything "outside the will of God" that led to his demise. How can any think to make such a leap? Just because there are many dangers in the world (is the brother who contracts malaria, or something like Ebola ministering to the poor in nations to which this might be endemic)...presumptuous in his ministry? God knows.
Yes, there are many promises of protection, and every day perhaps the blind do not know how many pit falls...and _close calls_ they have been saved from. But to me it is far more grievous for one calling themselves a believer to assume that when a man succumbs to even what _may appear outwardly_ a glaring misjudgment, that such a man earns being labeled foolhardy and somehow his actions are adjudged as going beyond the faith of the Son of God in stupidity.
I have far more concern regarding those who claim the name of Jesus Christ that have such a casual regard for a man who may (and until it is further concluded) been about the Master's business and met his end...(by whatever means) than seeking to present argument that such a man, by such a demise, shows he was acting in less than faith.


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## furtaker (Jun 6, 2018)

Atheists are always so bitter about Christianity and it must be depressing and confusing to go through life so constantly angry about something that you say is false or doesn't exist.  I guess if I thought that I was a random evolved piece of slime with no meaning or purpose in life then I would be mad at the world too.

Atlashunter:

Since you are so big on "proof" and "substantiating claims", prove to me that the Christian God doesn't exist.  I don't want to hear your argument that there is no evidence.  Show me 100% proof.


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## Spotlite (Jun 6, 2018)

Israel said:


> The man was not playing with a crocodile. The man was baptizing. The brother...was baptizing.
> But to me it is far more grievous for one calling themselves a believer to assume that when a man succumbs to even what _may appear outwardly_ a glaring misjudgment, that such a man earns being labeled foolhardy and somehow his actions are adjudged as going beyond the faith of the Son of God in stupidity.
> I have far more concern regarding those who claim the name of Jesus Christ that have such a casual regard for a man who may (and until it is further concluded) been about the Master's business and met his end...(by whatever means) than seeking to present argument that such a man, by such a demise, shows he was acting in less than faith.


I find it disturbing that a man known to expound with his writings is completely oblivious here.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 6, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I find it disturbing that a man kn mission tgere twice a yearown to expound with his writings is completely oblivious here.


It is ok. The number one cause of illness in that country is intestinal parasites contracted from the untreated water. This is from my Dr. who serves a church mission there, seeing and treating around 300 patients a day when there. It is a double edged sword for the locals because dehydration is a huge problem to which the cure is drinking water but they have little or no purification methods. Surely the pastor doing the baptizing was aware of this along with the crocodile population, threats and habits. Being a man of the cloth doing Gods work does not by proxy render one safe from the human trait of poor judgement nor the consequences there of. Thus my observation stands. Israel is free to judge me as he wishes and at his own peril.


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

furtaker said:


> Since you are so big on "proof" and "substantiating claims", prove to me that the Christian God doesn't exist.  I don't want to hear your argument that there is no evidence.  Show me 100% proof.



https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/145/Proving-Non-Existence


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

Had the man survived the attack believers would be saying it was only thanks to supernatural intervention. But when he dies they don't consider that evidence of absence. That's called confirmation bias and under those rules any mythological creature can be validated. It begs the question why must the bar be set so low and why is it not set equally low for all deities?


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## WaltL1 (Jun 6, 2018)

> furtaker said:
> Since you are so big on "proof" and "substantiating claims", prove to me that the Christian God doesn't exist.  I don't want to hear your argument that there is no evidence.  Show me 100% proof.





atlashunter said:


> https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/145/Proving-Non-Existence


I dream of the day when we never hear this ridiculous argument again in here


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> How do you explain the results of this study on intercessory prayer?
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567



It's not gone unnoticed that you didn't find this shocking or even interesting.


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## atlashunter (Jun 6, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I dream of the day when we never hear this ridiculous argument again in here



Yeah that one's been covered a million times here.


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## Israel (Jun 6, 2018)

660griz said:


> “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
> Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
> Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
> Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
> ...



"I really didn't expect the 'stupid games', argument."

Neither do I.

That's about all I know...the brother died baptizing. At least according to the report.
I don't know of any presumption except such as I see here.
It's notable also to me how easily, even casually, the assumption is made this brother acted stupidly, or rashly in a boldness that his death, and manner of it,  must testify to this.

I am more reminded of a man who went to the tree knowing how the religious would perceive it.


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## Lukikus2 (Jun 6, 2018)

The versus where written by prophets a thousand years ago. As seeing into the future. Wether or not seeing scams they didn't have a clue but wrote it. Two ways to look at it. Scam artist or superhumandevilbeings.


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 7, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Yes there is room for me to change my mind if the evidence warrants it. The evidence that something doesn't work is that it doesn't work. Where is your evidence that it does work? How do you explain the results of this study on intercessory prayer?
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567



too easy....god was watching the experiment play out, and made it look like prayer doesn't work to test the faithful while at the same time "adding fuel to the fire" for the unbelievers to continue their march toward their high-dive into the eternal pool of fire & brimstone. Sort of like how god created (then planted) thousands of dinosaur and Neanderthal fossils knowing evolution believers would take the bait.....mission accomplished!


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 7, 2018)

that Mark Twain quote was great. If I had to have a "top five" list of who I could meet if I could go back in time, he would be on it. Truly a class act and great human being - too bad he's just a human Duraflame log on Judgement Day.


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## atlashunter (Jun 7, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> too easy....god was watching the experiment play out, and made it look like prayer doesn't work to test the faithful while at the same time "adding fuel to the fire" for the unbelievers to continue their march toward their high-dive into the eternal pool of fire & brimstone. Sort of like how god created (then planted) thousands of dinosaur and Neanderthal fossils knowing evolution believers would take the bait.....mission accomplished!



And with that the mystery is solved.


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## j_seph (Jun 7, 2018)

"_I think the goodness, the justice, and the mercy of God are manifested in His works: I perceive that they are manifested toward me in this life; the logical conclusion is that they will be manifested toward me in the life to come, if there should be one._ " Mark Twain


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## atlashunter (Jun 7, 2018)

_"Annihilation has no terrors for me, because I have already tried it before I was born—a hundred million years—and I have suffered more in an hour, in this life, than I remember to have suffered in the whole hundred million years put together." ~Mark Twain_


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 8, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> _"Annihilation has no terrors for me, because I have already tried it before I was born—a hundred million years—and I have suffered more in an hour, in this life, than I remember to have suffered in the whole hundred million years put together." ~Mark Twain_



I have also heard a similar Mark Twain saying about death: "I'm not afraid of death. I was dead for billions of years before I was alive, and it doesn't seem to have harmed me any."


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## atlashunter (Jun 8, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> I have also heard a similar Mark Twain saying about death: "I'm not afraid of death. I was dead for billions of years before I was alive, and it doesn't seem to have harmed me any."



Yes I'm familiar with that one but I don't believe it is authentic. I think it is a paraphrase of the one I quoted which came from his autobiography.


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## j_seph (Jun 8, 2018)

Have yall read the book Mark twain wrote about Joan of Arc


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