# If Atheist are so smart .....



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 6, 2013)

If Atheist are so smart and if they do, as they oft haughtily proclaim, represent the intellectually, free and elite, why have they yet to offer a theory that is not only comprehensive enough to answer the questions of life with regards to Origin, Meaning, Morality, Destiny, Love, Forgiveness, Beauty, Transcendence, and Intelligence, but also logically and reasonably sound in principle when applied to each category while simultaneously offering inspiration and hope?
I'm just an old Redneck.  It would seem to me that this would not be such a tall order for such a gifted class of intellectuals.


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## ambush80 (Jul 6, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If Atheist are so smart and if they do, as they oft haughtily proclaim, represent the intellectually, free and elite, why have they yet to offer a theory that is not only comprehensive enough to answer the questions of life with regards to Origin, Meaning, Morality, Destiny, Love, Forgiveness, Beauty, Transcendence, and Intelligence, but also logically and reasonably sound in principle when applied to each category while simultaneously offering inspiration and hope?
> I'm just an old Redneck.  It would seem to me that this would not be such a tall order for such a gifted class of intellectuals.



Seems odd to me that one would feel the need bundle all that stuff into a single package.

(Someone post the picture of Curly from City slickers)


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## stringmusic (Jul 6, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Seems odd to me that one would feel the need bundle all that stuff into a single package.



It's called being a human.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Jul 6, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If Atheist are so smart and if they do, as they oft haughtily proclaim, represent the intellectually, free and elite, why have they yet to offer a theory that is not only comprehensive enough to answer the questions of life with regards to Origin, Meaning, Morality, Destiny, Love, Forgiveness, Beauty, Transcendence, and Intelligence, but also logically and reasonably sound in principle when applied to each category while simultaneously offering inspiration and hope?
> I'm just an old Redneck.  It would seem to me that this would not be such a tall order for such a gifted class of intellectuals.



Such a theory has been offered long ago - "Stuff" Happens"

Also, some folks seem to need to believe in something to get them through life, others don't.


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## ambush80 (Jul 6, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> It's called being a human.



That's pretty simplistic considering how complex we are.



Dr. Strangelove said:


> Such a theory has been offered long ago - "Stuff" Happens"
> 
> Also, some folks seem to need to believe in something to get them through life, others don't.



That's not good enough.  Some people need to feel special.  "Washed by blood, saved by grace, 'called', Southern by the grace of God".   What's a shame to me is that most people (Universalists excluded (hee)) latch on to the one way that they were born into and never give the other flavors an honest chance.  Talk about brand loyalty....


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## vowell462 (Jul 7, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If Atheist are so smart and if they do, as they oft haughtily proclaim, represent the intellectually, free and elite, why have they yet to offer a theory that is not only comprehensive enough to answer the questions of life with regards to Origin, Meaning, Morality, Destiny, Love, Forgiveness, Beauty, Transcendence, and Intelligence, but also logically and reasonably sound in principle when applied to each category while simultaneously offering inspiration and hope?
> I'm just an old Redneck.  It would seem to me that this would not be such a tall order for such a gifted class of intellectuals.



Ive never seen an atheist claim he was smarter than anybody. But ive seen things like this written by believers time and time again. I think it stems from a sense of questioning your own beliefs when an atheist or agnostic lays out plain logic to debunk something such as an unimaginable story like Jonah and the Whale or Noahs Ark. What I mean is, nobody likes to be wrong. And when they are, or when they don't have an answer, the other party tends to be known as a smarty pants to you or your followers. Thus, it tends to make the atheist look " smarter" because the god done it argument doesn't hold. Atheist and Agnostics are not enemies of Christians. Just because we don't believe in such as you do doesn't mean we are the " debil" as we are portrayed. We aren't smarter, we just don't fall into the same things that believers do. We are usually just people enjoying the little time we have in this life and don't spend it worrying about the unknown. Because after all, its still UNKNOWN.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 7, 2013)

The opening sentence makes me uncomfortable. Anyway, I think the perception you have comes from the fact that most athiest that frequent a forum like this, are not athiest "by faith" as most religious people are. They have studied the issue in search for what they deem as reasonable truth. To the point that they have concluded "answers" to the questions that arise at a forum such as this. After that, the discussions just become interesting. They don't come here to try to deconvert anyone.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 7, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> The opening sentence makes me uncomfortable. Anyway, I think the perception you have comes from the fact that most athiest that frequent a forum like this, are not athiest "by faith" as most religious people are. They have studied the issue in search for what they deem as reasonable truth. To the point that they have concluded "answers" to the questions that arise at a forum such as this. After that, the discussions just become interesting. They don't come here to try to deconvert anyone.



I would agree and like they say, Atheism is not a religion. It's like being left handed. I'm a left handed Christian and we are smarter than right handed Atheist.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 7, 2013)

Origin, Meaning, Morality, Destiny, Love, Forgiveness, Beauty, Transcendence, and Intelligence are all explained by other religions too. Why are all those people so dumb?


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## ambush80 (Jul 7, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> The opening sentence makes me uncomfortable. Anyway, I think the perception you have comes from the fact that most athiest that frequent a forum like this, are not athiest "by faith" as most religious people are. They have studied the issue in search for what they deem as reasonable truth. To the point that they have concluded "answers" to the questions that arise at a forum such as this. After that, the discussions just become interesting. They don't come here to try to deconvert anyone.




Well said.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 7, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> Ive never seen an atheist claim he was smarter than anybody.




“Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is the belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.” 
â€• Richard Dawkins

“One of the truly bad effects of religion is that it teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding.” 
â€• Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

“It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).” 
â€• Richard Dawkins

"There is something infantile in the presumption that somebody else (parents in the case of children, God in the case of adults) has a responsibility to give your life meaning and point. [...]
--- Richard Dawkins

“One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody—not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms—had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge (as well as for comfort, reassurance and other infantile needs). Today the least educated of my children knows much more about the natural order than any of the founders of religion, ....
â€• Christopher Hitchens, God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything

“Everything about Christianity is contained in the pathetic image of 'the flock.” 
â€• Christopher Hitchens, Hitch-22: A Memoir

“Those of us who write and study history are accustomed to its approximations and ambiguities. This is why we do not take literally the tenth-hand reports of frightened and illiterate peasants who claim to have seen miracles or to have had encounters with messiahs and prophets and redeemers who were, like them, mere humans. And this is also why we will never submit to dictation from those who display a fanatical belief in certainty and revelation.” 
â€• Christopher Hitchens

“Our weapons are the ironic mind against the literal: the open mind against the credulous; the courageous pursuit of truth against the fearful and abject forces who would set limits to investigation (and who stupidly claim that we already have all the truth we need). Perhaps above all, we affirm life over the cults of death and human sacrifice and are afraid, not of inevitable death, but rather of a human life that is cramped and distorted by the pathetic need to offer mindless adulation, or the dismal belief that the laws of nature respond to wailings and incantations.” 
â€• Christopher Hitchens

“It is merely an accident of history that it is considered normal in our society to believe that the Creator of the universe can hear your thoughts while it is demonstrative of mental illness to believe that he is communicating with you by having the rain tap in Morse code on your bedroom window.” 
â€• Sam Harris, The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason

“_t is difficult to imagine a set of beliefs more suggestive of mental illness than those that lie at the heart of many of our religious traditions.” 
â€• Sam Harris, The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason

“Religious faith is the one species of human ignorance that will not admit of even the possibility of correction.” 
â€• Sam Harris, The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason

How is it that, in this one area of our lives [religion], we have convinced ourselves that our beliefs about the world can float entirely free of reason and evidence?” 
â€• Sam Harris, The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason_


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 7, 2013)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> Such a theory has been offered long ago - "Stuff" Happens"



Guess you missed the hope and inspiration qualifier.



Dr. Strangelove said:


> Also, some folks seem to need to believe in something to get them through life, others don't.



To which group are you attributing this 'need to believe' to?


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## hummdaddy (Jul 7, 2013)

“One of the truly bad effects of religion is that it teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding.” 
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS ONE MAN YOU WILL NEVER GET IT!!!
everyone is free to believe what they believe,but i think everyone should do their own research to find their belief...


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## ambush80 (Jul 7, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Guess you missed the hope and inspiration qualifier.
> 
> 
> 
> To which group are you attributing this 'need to believe' to?



I get great comfort and inspiration from "stuff happens".   Wanna know how?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 7, 2013)

hummdaddy said:


> “One of the truly bad effects of religion is that it teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding.”
> â€• Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion



Thanks for providing another of Dawkins egotistical and fallacious quotes.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Jul 7, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Guess you missed the hope and inspiration qualifier.
> 
> 
> 
> To which group are you attributing this 'need to believe' to?



Nope, "Stuff happens" is very inspiring to me.

What group? Why, religious people of course.


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## bullethead (Jul 7, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> “Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is the belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.”
> ― Richard Dawkins
> 
> “One of the truly bad effects of religion is that it teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding.”
> ...


_

Now wait a second....
Are you lumping every person that does not believe in a god with the guys you quoted above?

If so, you are in some neat company with other believers.

PS: Slap a few founding father's quotes up there too regarding their take on religion. They were dummies like all the atheists too._


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 7, 2013)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> What group? Why, religious people of course.



Thanks for reinforcing the assertion of the OP.


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## hummdaddy (Jul 7, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Thanks for providing another of Dawkins egotistical and fallacious quotes.



you don't even know what you quoted


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## Dr. Strangelove (Jul 7, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Thanks for reinforcing the assertion of the OP.



No, I never said I look down upon religious people or that needing something to believe in was a weakness, but thanks for trying to put words in my mouth.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 7, 2013)

hummdaddy said:


> you don't even know what you quoted



TBH They're so many, and so common, and all saying the same thing that after a while they tend to run together.  To answer your earlier post, I get it and it's still both false and insulting.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 7, 2013)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> No, I never said I look down upon religious people or that needing something to believe in was a weakness, but thanks for trying to put words in my mouth.



Then you would have no problem with the assertion that Atheist have a need to believe in something to get them through life that others don't.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 7, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> =They don't come here to try to deconvert anyone.




Really??  Bull!


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## vowell462 (Jul 8, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> “Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is the belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.”
> â€• Richard Dawkins
> 
> “One of the truly bad effects of religion is that it teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding.”
> ...


_

Thank you for providing all of this from cutting my very first sentence of my paragraph. Probably didn't bother to read the rest.
Nowhere in any of these quotes did I see where someone said they were smarter. I saw allegations of be stupid, childish, etc. You are somehow proving my point.
These quotes have threatened you because you don't agree with them, yet you have no rebuttal to offer. You don't have an answer, in which, you have labeled them a smarty pants. Again, nobody likes to be wrong, or not have a logical answer. You have labeled these particular ones as smart, not them.
And also, isn't it kind of immature to assume that all atheist speak in the same tone as some of these guys you quoted? That's a heckuva assumption. I don't believe as you, but I don't go around degrading people either. Im sure if I wanted, I could do some google searching on some horrible things Christians have said about atheists. But that gets nowhere.
Not sure what you're trying to get out of this thread, but its about as useless as a screw in a nail gun._


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 8, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Really??  Bull!


Most of what I see from the athiest is an attempt to show themselves as reasonable people. Usually, it is the Christians who are trying to convert and the athiest explaining why they don't buy it.


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## vowell462 (Jul 8, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> Most of what I see from the athiest is an attempt to show themselves as reasonable people. Usually, it is the Christians who are trying to convert and the athiest explaining why they don't buy it.


yep


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## Dr. Strangelove (Jul 9, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Then you would have no problem with the assertion that Atheist have a need to believe in something to get them through life that others don't.



Sure!


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 9, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> Thank you for providing all of this from cutting my very first sentence of my paragraph. Probably didn't bother to read the rest..



No I read it all, but the quotes were offered as a rebuttal to your statement. "Ive never seen an atheist claim he was smarter than anybody."



vowell462 said:


> Nowhere in any of these quotes did I see where someone said they were smarter. I saw allegations of be stupid, childish, etc. .



Maybe you should re-read them.



vowell462 said:


> You are somehow proving my point.
> These quotes have threatened you because you don't agree with them, yet you have no rebuttal to offer. .



Not sure there is a rebuttal to a stereotype.



vowell462 said:


> You don't have an answer, in which, you have labeled them a smarty pants. Again, nobody likes to be wrong, or not have a logical answer. You have labeled these particular ones as smart, not them..



Vague.  Unsure what you mean by this.



vowell462 said:


> And also, isn't it kind of immature to assume that all atheist speak in the same tone as some of these guys you quoted? That's a heckuva assumption. .



I'm aware not all Atheist lack common courtesy just as not all Christians have it, but to get back to the OP ...



vowell462 said:


> I don't believe as you, but I don't go around degrading people either..Im sure if I wanted, I could do some google searching on some horrible things Christians have said about atheists.



I'm sure you could, but the difference being that those Christians would be acting against the very principles to they profess.  In contrast an Atheist subscribes to no such transcendent moral ethos so if you "don't go around degrading people" it's not because you feel obliged to do so.  It's just your choice.  If you change your mind in ten minutes you can do so with impunity.  Atheism has no conscious.


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## 660griz (Jul 13, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If Atheist are so smart and if they do, as they oft haughtily proclaim, represent the intellectually, free and elite, why have they yet to offer a theory that is not only comprehensive enough to answer the questions of life with regards to Origin, Meaning, Morality, Destiny, Love, Forgiveness, Beauty, Transcendence, and Intelligence, but also logically and reasonably sound in principle when applied to each category while simultaneously offering inspiration and hope?



What is wrong with "I don't know" ? Can't we just keep trying to find answers to the mysteries of life? A long time ago..."Is the world flat?" I don't know, let's find out.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 13, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> That's pretty simplistic considering how complex we are.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not good enough.  Some people need to feel special.  "Washed by blood, saved by grace, 'called', Southern by the grace of God".   What's a shame to me is that most people (Universalists excluded (hee)) latch on to the one way that they were born into and never give the other flavors an honest chance.  Talk about brand loyalty....



Yes we are complex, we don't even have the same fingerprints, we are not all 'one' we were created differently and uniquely according to the Word.

Nothing is no more 'special' than thinking that you and you alone have all the answers to how you came into being, not even considering that it's possible we were created by something or someone....that we are so smart that we know for sure there is no God.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 13, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> Most of what I see from the athiest is an attempt to show themselves as reasonable people. Usually, it is the Christians who are trying to convert and the athiest explaining why they don't buy it.



I just don't buy that explanation of why atheists come here. I believe all of us come here to say what we believe, however (speaking for myself) mostly what goes on here is one side belittling the other side. I believe in science and not so naive that I call it fairy tales. In my opinion anything is possible.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 14, 2013)

660griz said:


> What is wrong with "I don't know" ? Can't we just keep trying to find answers to the mysteries of life? A long time ago..."Is the world flat?" I don't know, let's find out.



I have no problem with I don't know.  What I find hypocritical is for Atheist like Hitchens, Harris and Dawkins and anyone else to portray believers as ignorant and unthinking, when their own answers, at best, only correspond to a few of the many questions of life, much less provide any hope or inspiration.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 14, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Yes we are complex, we don't even have the same fingerprints, we are not all 'one' we were created differently and uniquely according to the Word.
> 
> Nothing is no more 'special' than thinking that you and you alone have all the answers to how you came into being, not even considering that it's possible we were created by something or someone....that we are so smart that we know for sure there is no God.



Very, very well put.


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## bullethead (Jul 14, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Very, very well put.



(Don't tell anyone else but ALL primates have fingerprints....some on the end of their tales)

Still feel special?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 14, 2013)

bullethead said:


> (Don't tell anyone else but ALL primates have fingerprints....some on the end of their tales)
> 
> Still feel special?



I was referring to her second point.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 15, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> I just don't buy that explanation of why atheists come here. I believe all of us come here to say what we believe, however (speaking for myself) mostly what goes on here is one side belittling the other side. I believe in science and not so naive that I call it fairy tales. In my opinion anything is possible.



Anything except your god not being real.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I have no problem with I don't know.  What I find hypocritical is for Atheist like Hitchens, Harris and Dawkins and anyone else to portray believers as ignorant and unthinking, when their own answers, at best, only correspond to a few of the many questions of life, much less provide any hope or inspiration.



To make up one answer that does it all... answers all of those many questions of life and provides hop and inspiration, they'd have to make up a god.....


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## stringmusic (Jul 15, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> To make up one answer that does it all... answers all of those many questions of life and provides hop and inspiration, they'd have to make up a god.....



Don't you find it interesting that one answer can actually *coherently* answer all the tough philosophical questions in life and provide hope and inspiration at the same time?

Seems to me that shows evidence for the answer to be true, not false.


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## 660griz (Jul 15, 2013)

Who needs hope and inspiration? What does that mean? Hope and inspiration for what? If someone needs hope and inspiration, are they weak?


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## stringmusic (Jul 15, 2013)

660griz said:


> Who needs hope and inspiration?


Humans.



> What does that mean?


Google the definitions



> Hope and inspiration for what?


That there is more to life than simply having a meaningless existence.



> If someone needs hope and inspiration, are they weak?


In a way, yes. That's why God sent Christ to die for us. I have hope and inspriation now, and I'm no longer weak in that area.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 15, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Yes we are complex, we don't even have the same fingerprints, we are not all 'one' we were created differently and uniquely according to the Word.
> 
> Nothing is no more 'special' than thinking that you and you alone have all the answers to how you came into being, not even considering that it's possible we were created by something or someone....that we are so smart that we know for sure there is no God.



I 100% Consider it.... and 100% don't think I have all of the answers.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 15, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Don't you find it interesting that one answer can actually *coherently* answer all the tough philosophical questions in life and provide hope and inspiration at the same time?
> 
> Seems to me that shows evidence for the answer to be true, not false.



Not when it has to be as ridiculous as it all is in order to get there. That is opinion of course.


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## stringmusic (Jul 15, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Not when it has to be as ridiculous as it all is in order to get there. That is opinion of course.



How is it rediculous if it actually coherently answers the major question about life? No other answer I know can do that.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 15, 2013)

It TRIES to answer them. Obviously, I believe it has very few real answers.


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## 660griz (Jul 15, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Humans.



I guess only some humans need it. Googled it, in your context I guess you mean bible hope. I'm good. 

Actually, I don't need hope or inspiration. I am in charge of my hapiness and my future. 
Unless I get hit by a meteor. I hope I don't.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 15, 2013)

But you have hope, that you won't be hit by a meteor.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 15, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> To make up one answer that does it all... answers all of those many questions of life and provides hop and inspiration, they'd have to make up a god.....



Wow!  You said it all right there.  How feeble and haughty their arrogance in light of your statement.


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## 660griz (Jul 15, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> But you have hope, that you won't be hit by a meteor.



Hope won't help.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Wow!  You said it all right there.  How feeble and haughty their arrogance in light of your statement.



I don't follow.


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## selfbowman (Jul 15, 2013)

Jesus is my way. Pick what you want or not at all. Truth will be known soon enough.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 15, 2013)

660griz said:


> Actually, I don't need hope or inspiration. I am in charge of my hapiness and my future.



That is correct until the day you die, but eternity is a mighty long time to have regrets if you are wrong.  Chances are you take your love ones down with you too, because they look to you for leadership.  You might be willing to risk being wrong and take the consequences yourself, but are you so certain that you are right that you are willing to risk your loves ones fate too?


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## Ridge Walker (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That is correct until the day you die, but eternity is a mighty long time to have regrets if you are wrong.  Chances are you take your love ones down with you too, because they look to you for leadership.  You might be willing to risk being wrong and take the consequences yourself, but are you so certain that you are right that you are willing to risk your loves ones fate too?



Of course this applies to you as well. If there is a god, I hope you chose the right one. I assume you have studied all the other world religions and decided that christianity was the correct one?


RW


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That is correct until the day you die, but eternity is a mighty long time to have regrets if you are wrong.  Chances are you take your love ones down with you too, because they look to you for leadership.  You might be willing to risk being wrong and take the consequences yourself, but are you so certain that you are right that you are willing to risk your loves ones fate too?



You are too.. Straw man.


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## bullethead (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That is correct until the day you die, but eternity is a mighty long time to have regrets if you are wrong.  Chances are you take your love ones down with you too, because they look to you for leadership.  You might be willing to risk being wrong and take the consequences yourself, but are you so certain that you are right that you are willing to risk your loves ones fate too?



So when we die, heaven or h3ll, we live on forever as a spirit.....sounds god-like to me.

You have one base covered out of tens of thousands. I hope you are right. And "we" feel we are just as right as you are.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 15, 2013)

Ridge Walker said:


> Of course this applies to you as well. If there is a god, I hope you chose the right one. I assume you have studied all the other world religions and decided that christianity was the correct one?
> 
> 
> RW




Again, you are correct.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 15, 2013)

bullethead said:


> So when we die, heaven or h3ll, we live on forever as a spirit.....sounds god-like to me.



How so?



bullethead said:


> You have one base covered out of tens of thousands. I hope you are right. And "we" feel we are just as right as you are.



Unsure what you mean in your 1:10,000 assertion, but based on history I feel another ludicrous analogy coming this way.  

You "feel" you are just as right as we are?  WOW!  Oh yeah, I forgot.  You've already spent a lot of time elaborating on how you justify your moral decisions based on how you "feel".  I wasn't aware it was also how you justified your decision of what is true, but I guess it stands to reason.  Well, by all means, carry on.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You "feel" you are just as right as we are?  WOW!  Oh yeah, I forgot.  You've already spent a lot of time elaborating on how you justify your moral decisions based on how you "feel".  I wasn't aware it was also how you justified your decision of what is true, but I guess it stands to reason.  Well, by all means, carry on.



I see another straw man... Anyways....

You do this EXACT same thing... you just call it something different..


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## bullethead (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> How so?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It has gotten me by for 43 years.


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## bullethead (Jul 15, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I see another straw man... Anyways....
> 
> You do this EXACT same thing... you just call it something different..



Yep. He likes to call people out for not doing exactly as he does, yet he is doing the exact same thing with a different name to it.


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## bullethead (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> How so?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It all boils down to YOU asserting all your morals and everything to a higher power that only exists in your mind. You base it off of how "god" would feel, but in reality you are the "god" in your own mind. You are doing what I do but you owe it all to one extra invisible guy that you put in the mix. He is your check valve. AND, like in each and every post you fail to provide any proof that such a being exists despite all the wild claims otherwise.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 15, 2013)

bullethead said:


> It has gotten me by for 43 years.




Charles Manson could say the same.  In fact anyone could because, again without a standard, which you deny exists, it is a meaningless statement.  Your assertion in effect denies itself.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Charles Manson could say the same.  In fact anyone could because, again without a standard, which you deny exists, it is a meaningless statement.  Your assertion in effect denies itself.



Show me the standard. Don't tell me. Show me. Prove to me there is a higher power that gave us these morals. And if it is responsible for my morals then where is my free will? If we all have these morals from your God then we all disregard them. You, me, everyone.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 15, 2013)

bullethead said:


> It all boils down to YOU asserting all your morals and everything to a higher power that only exists in your mind. .



I would suggest that is a statement you cannot remotely hope to prove as true, but be my guest.



bullethead said:


> You base it off of how "god" would feel, but in reality you are the "god" in your own mind. .



  I'm assuming you are speaking of the God of Christianity.
If so this assertion is even more blatantly false, but go on and give me a defense of it.



bullethead said:


> You are doing what I do but you owe it all to one extra invisible guy that you put in the mix. He is your check valve. AND, like in each and every post you fail to provide any proof that such a being exists despite all the wild claims otherwise.



Close. We both worship one God.  Mine is the God of Christianity.  Atheist worship themselves as god.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I would suggest that is a statement you cannot remotely hope to prove as true, but be my guest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know I exist.
Anytime you want to introduce me to your guru my door is open.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I would suggest that is a statement you cannot remotely hope to prove as true, but be my guest.


You now know what it is like to be in my shoes talking to you.





SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm assuming you are speaking of the God of Christianity.
> If so this assertion is even more blatantly false, but go on and give me a defense of it.


His absence is my defense.





SemperFiDawg said:


> Close. We both worship one God.  Mine is the God of Christianity.  Atheist worship themselves as god.



And YOU have the stones to tell me that I make statements that I cannot prove to be true and make false assertions.....welcome to the club, you are now vice president.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Atheist worship themselves as god.




straw man.............


----------



## bullethead (Jul 15, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> straw man.............



Do As I Say, Not As I Do........


----------



## 660griz (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That is correct until the day you die, but eternity is a mighty long time to have regrets if you are wrong.


 If I thought there was a chance I was wrong, I would believe. 





SemperFiDawg said:


> Chances are you take your love ones down with you too, because they look to you for leadership.


 They were also born with the ability to reason and make decisions. I don't force my views on anyone. I didn't teach them about religion so, they are exempt until taught and doomed. 





SemperFiDawg said:


> You might be willing to risk being wrong and take the consequences yourself, but are you so certain that you are right that you are willing to risk your loves ones fate too?


 Well...Yes. I am just that sure. I also have the character to not to believe "just in case."  

Blind faith is a dangerous thing.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 15, 2013)

SFD has made a HUGE mistake.. as does everyone who says all atheists should believe because the possible consequences of not believing. 

I don't believe because my own instinct tells me is a load of mess. My intuition. The voice inside my head tells me that. The same voice inside your head that they call god, tells me not to believe it. I CAN'T just say, "yeah, ok, I'll believe." because I'm not just choosing to rebel like SFD seems to think I/we are. I specifically believe that it's not true. 

Although I DO believe that there is a chance I'm wrong. I am not arrogant enough to think I've got it right. The god in the bible could be the real one.. That isn't enough for me to BELIEVE the way it's necessary for me to believe. I'd be kidding myself.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 15, 2013)

bullethead said:


> You now know what it is like to be in my shoes talking to you.





bullethead said:


> His absence is my defense.



By that standard is it safe to assume that by the absence of you offering a reasonable defense for your assertions that none exists.



bullethead said:


> And YOU have the stones to tell me that I make statements that I cannot prove to be true and make false assertions.....welcome to the club, you are now vice president.



Oh I think it's a quiet reasonable assertion that Atheist hold themselves up as God.

Who do Atheist look to in defining morality? 
Themselves.

Who do atheist look to in determining human worth?
Themselves

Who do Atheist hold that is sits atop of the known universe?
Mankind/Themselves

Who do Atheist look to for guidance?
Themselves

Who do Athiest look to for giving thanks?
Themselves

Who do Atheist owe alliegence too?
Themselves 

Who do Atheist look to in order to define origin, meaning, purpose?
Themselves

The list goes on an on, but I think it's obvious there is a difference in that Christians contend they answer to a God they see as external and superior to them whereas Athiest hold that mankind is Superior and hence they are only answerable to themselves.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 15, 2013)

660griz said:


> If I thought there was a chance I was wrong, I would believe.  They were also born with the ability to reason and make decisions. I don't force my views on anyone. I didn't teach them about religion so, they are exempt until taught and doomed.  Well...Yes. I am just that sure. I also have the character to not to believe "just in case."



Fair enough.



660griz said:


> Blind faith is a dangerous thing.



Yes it is, but not as dangerous as no faith.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> By that standard is it safe to assume that by the absence of you offering a reasonable defense for your assertions that none exists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're saying that if your god told you to kill someone, you would do it, even though you understand that mankind doesn't want you to do that... Or if god told you to kill your child... because he is Superior and you are ultimately answerable to him, not the government where you live.... Good to know.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> By that standard is it safe to assume that by the absence of you offering a reasonable defense for your assertions that none exists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"I feel the rhythm with your hands"
"Steal the rhythm while you can"
" STRAW-MAN"


special thanks to Soundgarden for using some of their lyrics


----------



## drippin' rock (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> By that standard is it safe to assume that by the absence of you offering a reasonable defense for your assertions that none exists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Where do I get the ability to live, grow, laugh, learn, love, hate, reason, and wonder?  Myself.  Why should I think it comes from any other source?


----------



## ddd-shooter (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> By that standard is it safe to assume that by the absence of you offering a reasonable defense for your assertions that none exists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's a lot of "who do" coming from a Christian. lol 

Maybe next time it can be 'To whom do they look..."


----------



## ddd-shooter (Jul 15, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> You're saying that if your god told you to kill someone, you would do it, even though you understand that mankind doesn't want you to do that... Or if god told you to kill your child... because he is Superior and you are ultimately answerable to him, not the government where you live.... Good to know.


I think you know enough of the Bible to know that ain't coming from God...


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 15, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> That's a lot of "who do" coming from a Christian. lol
> 
> Maybe next time it can be 'To whom do they look..."



Sorry.  I ain't no Anglish Major, but I guess that's obvious.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 15, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Where do I get the ability to live, grow, laugh, learn, love, hate, reason, and wonder?  Myself.  Why should I think it comes from any other source?



Thank you for reinforcing my point.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 15, 2013)

From the way I understand Christianity. God calls and then we answer. We can't expect God to call every Atheist. If I didn't believe Jesus died for my sins and rose from the grave, I would not have become a Christian. I would not be a Christian just because of a fear of He!!. Some Christians don't even believe in an eternal burning He!! yet they have been called to believe. Not everyone will be elected. 
There has to be that spark from the Holy Spirit to open the heart of the un-believer. I don't think a person who becomes a Christian because "they might be wrong" or "what if you're wrong" would make a very good Christian. There would be something missing from their heart. The love of God would not be present. The Holy Spirit might not be present which would mean the person wasn't even a Christian after all.
My witnessing doesn't even  include "what if you are wrong?" Mainly because if they accept Jesus they do believe. After all what is salvation from? I guess it could be from eternal death vs eternal life. Either way I don't try to use scare tactics but love tactics.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Thank you for reinforcing my point.



If morals come from a God why are they not so clear cut and why don't the majority of people adhere to them?

Lots of people rioting over the GZ verdict. Are their actions a result of this same God? Has the feeling to act like animals been instilled in them from some God? Or are their primordial instincts showing through?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 16, 2013)

bullethead said:


> If morals come from a God why are they not so clear cut and why don't the majority of people adhere to them?
> 
> Lots of people rioting over the GZ verdict. Are their actions a result of this same God? Has the feeling to act like animals been instilled in them from some God? Or are their primordial instincts showing through?




This probably deserves its own thread


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 16, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> From the way I understand Christianity. God calls and then we answer. We can't expect God to call every Atheist. If I didn't believe Jesus died for my sins and rose from the grave, I would not have become a Christian. I would not be a Christian just because of a fear of He!!. Some Christians don't even believe in an eternal burning He!! yet they have been called to believe. Not everyone will be elected.
> There has to be that spark from the Holy Spirit to open the heart of the un-believer. I don't think a person who becomes a Christian because "they might be wrong" or "what if you're wrong" would make a very good Christian. There would be something missing from their heart. The love of God would not be present. The Holy Spirit might not be present which would mean the person wasn't even a Christian after all.
> My witnessing doesn't even  include "what if you are wrong?" Mainly because if they accept Jesus they do believe. After all what is salvation from? I guess it could be from eternal death vs eternal life. Either way I don't try to use scare tactics but love tactics.



This definitely deserves its own thread.  You could fill a library with what has been written on this.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 16, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> I think you know enough of the Bible to know that ain't coming from God...



He's done it before. And I do know enough to know that ain't coming from any god... because I assume that there is no god for it to come from.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 16, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> This probably deserves its own thread



It deserves an answer.

It is no more off topic than your "Atheist hold themselves as God" post in here. I posted it because of that.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 16, 2013)

bullethead said:


> It all boils down to YOU asserting all your morals and everything to a higher power that only exists in your mind. You base it off of how "god" would feel, but in reality you are the "god" in your own mind. You are doing what I do but you owe it all to one extra invisible guy that you put in the mix. He is your check valve. AND, like in each and every post you fail to provide any proof that such a being exists despite all the wild claims otherwise.



It's ultimately a way not to have to take responsibility for one's own actions and a psychologically burdensome one at that.  "I'm a born sinner because of Adam." (How's that make you feel everyday?)  "I'm saved and forgiven.  But not you."  "God told me to do it." "It's the Devil.  He's behind all the bad stuff!"


----------



## bullethead (Jul 16, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> It's ultimately a way not to have to take responsibility for one's own actions and a psychologically burdensome one at that.  "I'm a born sinner because of Adam." (How's that make you feel everyday?)  "I'm saved and forgiven.  But not you."  "God told me to do it." "It's the Devil.  He's behind all the bad stuff!"



Yep, pass the blame to someone else.
That darn Adam, always screwing things up for the rest of us....
It is a way to pass the buck on the inherently bad actions that consume mankind.

But you would think that Jesus dying erased all those sins so anyone born since Jesus died for those sins "should" have a clean slate like Adam started with, but why let the details get in the way of a good fable?


----------



## drippin' rock (Jul 16, 2013)

I wouldn't even say pass the blame. I believe we are dealing with a creation story passed along for thousands of years, tweaked and embellished with each retelling.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 16, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Yep, pass the blame to someone else.
> That darn Adam, always screwing things up for the rest of us....
> It is a way to pass the buck on the inherently bad actions that consume mankind.
> 
> But you would think that Jesus dying erased all those sins so anyone born since Jesus died for those sins "should" have a clean slate like Adam started with, but why let the details get in the way of a good fable?



I do have a clean slate.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 16, 2013)

bullethead said:


> It deserves an answer.
> 
> It is no more off topic than your "Atheist hold themselves as God" post in here. I posted it because of that.



O.K.  I'll bite



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by bullethead
> If morals come from a God why are they not so clear cut and why don't the majority of people adhere to them?



Just to be clear before I reply, which are you asserting: that because morals are not clear cut and the majority of people don't adhere to them this implies either there is no God or that morals don't come from him or both?


----------



## ddd-shooter (Jul 16, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Yep, pass the blame to someone else.
> That darn Adam, always screwing things up for the rest of us....
> It is a way to pass the buck on the inherently bad actions that consume mankind.
> 
> But you would think that Jesus dying erased all those sins so anyone born since Jesus died for those sins "should" have a clean slate like Adam started with, but why let the details get in the way of a good fable?


Born once, you have the Adamic nature. You are dead spiritually. 
Born twice, you have Christ's nature. You are alive. 
Ye must be born again. 

Jesus didn't come to make bad people good  he came to make dead people live.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 16, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> Born once, you have the Adamic nature. You are dead spiritually.
> Born twice, you have Christ's nature. You are alive.
> Ye must be born again.
> 
> Jesus didn't come to make bad people good  he came to make dead people live.



Amen


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 16, 2013)

Dead spiritually? So I don't have a spirit until being born again? Spirits, being spirits can be dead at all? What has happened to my live spirit since I "deconverted" or whatever you'd like to call it?

Maybe those specific details aren't important, so I ask, take it literally, or figuratively? If I take it figuratively, how do I know which figurative interpretation is correct?


----------



## ddd-shooter (Jul 16, 2013)

Literally, the part of triple x that is spirit is dead. Literally, ( no hard feelings) that part of you has never been alive. 

To borrow from C.S. Lewis: When a man gets connected to God, how can he not but live? If a man is separated from God, what can he do but whither and die?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 16, 2013)

Has NEVER been alive? I was once as saved as you think you are.


----------



## swampstalker24 (Jul 16, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That is correct until the day you die, but eternity is a mighty long time to have regrets if you are wrong.  Chances are you take your love ones down with you too, because they look to you for leadership.  You might be willing to risk being wrong and take the consequences yourself, but are you so certain that you are right that you are willing to risk your loves ones fate too?



Thats one of the major concepts that turned me from religion; the idea of ETERNITY.  I dont think there is such a thing, infinity maybe, but not eternity.  Besides, god said himself that he is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end.  So how can he be the begining and the end, if eternity is real?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 16, 2013)

swampstalker24 said:


> Thats one of the major concepts that turned me from religion; the idea of ETERNITY.  I dont think there is such a thing, infinity maybe, but not eternity.  Besides, god said himself that he is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end.  So how can he be the begining and the end, if eternity is real?



I think you are speaking of two separate concepts.  The verses in the Bible regarding the Alpha and Omega, in my opinion, speak to Gods sovereignty more so than his eternal nature, not that his eternal nature isn't implied also.  It certainly is.

Personally the concept of time is so ingrained I have a very hard time conceptually thinking of something not being bound by time, just as I have a hard time conceptually thinking of a 4th or 5th dimension.  I say this to quantify that my answer is just one of a novice.  But, if we look at time as we know it, as as something that can be measured and has a beginning and an end which is what both science and the Bible suggest, then it is certainly a finite concept.  However something existed before, if you will, the Big Bang which is when the concept of time as we understand it in its finite sense began.  So if something existed prior to, or outside of, our concept of finite time then the concept of 'eternal' is a logical assertion as would your supposition of infinity if you mean something existing outside of the laws of nature.

Sorry but that's the best I got so far.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 16, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> O.K.  I'll bite
> 
> 
> 
> Just to be clear before I reply, which are you asserting: that because morals are not clear cut and the majority of people don't adhere to them this implies either there is no God or that morals don't come from him or both?



That is a good start.....one or both
Take it from there


----------



## ddd-shooter (Jul 16, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Has NEVER been alive? I was once as saved as you think you are.



So then you agree. It is dead and has never been alive. You posit the reason is because God is not real, I say you could not have ever been alive and then decided an God was fake. You might decide you would rather be alone, but you would still know God was real. 

Anyway, I think we are both being presumptuous saying what others may or may not feel. I apologize if it was too much.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 16, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> Born once, you have the Adamic nature. You are dead spiritually.
> Born twice, you have Christ's nature. You are alive.
> Ye must be born again.
> 
> Jesus didn't come to make bad people good  he came to make dead people live.



Everyone is said to have a soul.
Once we all die our soul is supposed to live forever...somewhere. depending on what a person believes it could be that the soul lives on forever in heaven, h3ll or somewhere in between. The dead Live on either way.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 17, 2013)

> Originally Posted by bullethead
> If morals come from a God why are they not so clear cut and why don't the majority of people adhere to them?





> Originally posted by SFD
> Just to be clear before I reply, which are you asserting: that because morals are not clear cut and the majority of people don't adhere to them this implies either there is no God or that morals don't come from him or both?





bullethead said:


> That is a good start.....one or both
> Take it from there



I would say that neither the assertion that morals are not clear cut nor the assertion that the majority don't adhere to them disprove there is no God nor that morals don't come from him.  We could make the exact same assertions regarding the U.S. Tax Code, but that certainly doesn't prove that Congress doesn't exist nor does it prove that they in fact DON'T issue the tax laws.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 17, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I think you are speaking of two separate concepts.  The verses in the Bible regarding the Alpha and Omega, in my opinion, speak to Gods sovereignty more so than his eternal nature, not that his eternal nature isn't implied also.  It certainly is.



Saying you're the beginning and the end implies eternal?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 17, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> So then you agree. It is dead and has never been alive. You posit the reason is because God is not real, I say you could not have ever been alive and then decided an God was fake. You might decide you would rather be alone, but you would still know God was real.
> 
> Anyway, I think we are both being presumptuous saying what others may or may not feel. I apologize if it was too much.



My soul was never alive because it doesn't exist. But my soul was once as saved as yours is. Playing in your world, does that mean my soul was dead, became alive when I accept Jesus Christ As My Lord ANd SAVior, and is now dead again?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 17, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Saying you're the beginning and the end implies eternal?



You will have to ask Swampstalker.  It was his assertion.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 17, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I would say that neither the assertion that morals are not clear cut nor the assertion that the majority don't adhere to them disprove there is no God nor that morals don't come from him.  We could make the exact same assertions regarding the U.S. Tax Code, but that certainly doesn't prove that Congress doesn't exist nor does it prove that they in fact DON'T issue the tax laws.



I had hoped a God would not be held to the same standards as Congress.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 17, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I had hoped a God would not be held to the same standards as Congress.



God is not held to the same standards as Congress and that's certianly not what SFD is implying.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 17, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> God is not held to the same standards as Congress and that's certianly not what SFD is implying.



Then if this God is capable of god-like things I expect something above and beyond normal to distance himself from the pack. Things should be more clear cut when a God is involved or why call him God?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 17, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I had hoped a God would not be held to the same standards as Congress.



I sure hope not.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 17, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Then if this God is capable of god-like things I expect something above and beyond normal to distance himself from the pack. Things should be more clear cut when a God is involved or why call him God?



Bullet what sort of evidence would you need?  I've got a fairly moderate education in science, yet when I look around at nature I'm amazed at the enormity of what we DON'T know, and its everywhere.  The more we understand in any given field just makes us realize how little we do understand and begs more questions than answers.  There's infinite wonder in even the most minuscule concepts.  Personally I can't think of any more powerful evidence that an unending well of wonders in every aspect of nature we can imagine.  It's like a bottomless toy chest.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 17, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Bullet what sort of evidence would you need?  I've got a fairly moderate education in science, yet when I look around at nature I'm amazed at the enormity of what we DON'T know, and its everywhere.  The more we understand in any given field just makes us realize how little we do understand and begs more questions than answers.  There's infinite wonder in even the most minuscule concepts.  Personally I can't think of any more powerful evidence that an unending well of wonders in every aspect of nature we can imagine.  It's like a bottomless toy chest.



Is it beyond the God of the Bible to make his presence known to anyone wanting to know the truth and do it in a way that is absolutely unique to that individual so there is no doubt about interpreting the event?

I full well expect the Universe and every single thing in it down to each and every individual sub atomic particle to be a challenge to understand. 

I don't expect that from an entity that is supposed to want our worship.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 17, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You will have to ask Swampstalker.  It was his assertion.



You said it was certainly implied...


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 17, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> You said it was certainly implied...



If you read that post, then you should not have to ask me that question.  It was answered.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 17, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Is it beyond the God of the Bible to make his presence known to anyone wanting to know the truth and do it in a way that is absolutely unique to that individual so there is no doubt about interpreting the event?
> 
> I full well expect the Universe and every single thing in it down to each and every individual sub atomic particle to be a challenge to understand.
> 
> I don't expect that from an entity that is supposed to want our worship.



Personally that is one reason I WANT to worship him, that he has made nature so awe inspiring to me.  I don't think it's accurate to say he wants or needs our worship.  The conclusion I draw is that he is worthy of worship thus we do if out of gratitude.  It means more to me when my kids give me a spontaneous hug or 'I love you' than it does if I have to coax it out of them.  

Mandated adulation and affection is not evidence of love, but of servitude.  True love can only be proven as true if there is also a choice of not to love.  We have been given that power of choice.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 17, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Personally that is one reason I WANT to worship him, that he has made nature so awe inspiring to me.  I don't think it's accurate to say he wants or needs our worship.  The conclusion I draw is that he is worthy of worship thus we do if out of gratitude.  It means more to me when my kids give me a spontaneous hug or 'I love you' than it does if I have to coax it out of them.
> 
> Mandated adulation and affection is not evidence of love, but of servitude.  True love can only be proven as true if there is also a choice of not to love.  We have been given that power of choice.



Your answer tells me what works for you.

Didn't answer my question to you about your god's capability.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 17, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Is it beyond the God of the Bible to make his presence known to anyone wanting to know the truth and do it in a way that is absolutely unique to that individual so there is no doubt about interpreting the event?


He does it every day.

Now, if you arguing that you want to be able to interpret another person's unique personal event, then that's another story.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 17, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> He does it every day.
> 
> Now, if you arguing that you want to be able to interpret another person's unique personal event, then that's another story.



mtnwo.....errr string, please stop the nonsense.

I want god to single ME out and specifically give ME what I need in order to believe in HIM.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 17, 2013)

I think I understand your point, and I'm not sure exactly how best to answer it, if in fact I can, but let me ask you something just to clarify it a bit for me.   By holding God to such a high standard in providing you proof of his existence, in all honesty are you not subjecting him to a higher standard than you do for most other things in your life.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 17, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If you read that post, then you should not have to ask me that question.  It was answered.



I see no explanation of that. So I will assume that it all you've got for an answer.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 17, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I don't think it's accurate to say he wants or needs our worship.



Now that's funny. Do you read the bible??


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 17, 2013)

triplexbullies said:


> i see no explanation of that. So i will assume that it all you've got for an answer.



o.k.


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## bullethead (Jul 17, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I think I understand your point, and I'm not sure exactly how best to answer it, if in fact I can, but let me ask you something just to clarify it a bit for me.   By holding God to such a high standard in providing you proof of his existence, in all honesty are you not subjecting him to a higher standard than you do for most other things in your life.



A god should not have a problem being held to god-like standards. Since I am not a God all I ask is that he meets or if he wishes exceeds my highest standards.
IF he is a God he should be able to handle it in a way that blows me away. If he is real but incapable then I have no reason to call him God. If he is not real then I guess I won't be hearing from him.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 17, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> My soul was never alive because it doesn't exist. But my soul was once as saved as yours is. Playing in your world, does that mean my soul was dead, became alive when I accept Jesus Christ As My Lord ANd SAVior, and is now dead again?



Already answered...


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 18, 2013)

bullethead said:


> A god should not have a problem being held to god-like standards. Since I am not a God all I ask is that he meets or if he wishes exceeds my highest standards.



What are your highest standards he should meet specifically?



bullethead said:


> IF he is a God he should be able to handle it in a way that blows me away. If he is real but incapable then I have no reason to call him God. If he is not real then I guess I won't be hearing from him.



Dang Bullet I almost detect a hint optimism in that.


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## bullethead (Jul 18, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> What are your highest standards he should meet specifically?


If there is a God he would know.





SemperFiDawg said:


> Dang Bullet I almost detect a hint optimism in that.



My intentions are not to disprove a god or gods, I have been looking for proof. There is optimism, waning optimism, it is just that the more I search for the truth the more I find less in favor of such a being.


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## bullethead (Jul 18, 2013)

And let me be crystal clear. I hope there is a God. I am looking to find the proof of any God. I am convinced God, as told in the Bible, is either not real or has been grossly misrepresented by the authors of those writings.


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