# Free Grace vs Lordship Salvation



## Artfuldodger

As it relates to how individuals are saved, there are two main positions that scholars take; one position is the free grace view, the other is the lordship salvation view. The former states that a believer receives the right to live with God for all eternity solely by the grace of God which is given at no cost to the believer. The latter states that the right to live with God for all eternity is not only based on trust in God but totally and completely surrendering every aspect of their lives to God. 

Now here are some observations about Lordship salvation.
1. In the final analysis, it is salvation by works, which is in direct contrast to the teaching of the Scriptures.
2. If one must accept Christ as Lord of his life in order to be saved, it would of necessity remove growth in grace.
3. Lordship salvation necessitates the doctrine of losing one's salvation. If one must make Jesus his Lord in order to be saved, then when he backslides to the position to where Jesus is no longer his Lord, consistency would drive us to believe that he is no longer saved.
4. Lordship salvation makes no provision for the carnal Christian. None of us takes pleasure in the carnality of a Christian, but the fact remains that there is such a person taught in the Bible.
5. Lordship salvation removes grace and would nullify the plainest verses in the Bible concerning salvation.
6. Salvation is receiving, not giving.
3. When Christ enters, the old man does not leave.
Perhaps the greatest Christian who ever lived was the Apostle Paul. In speaking of himself he said, "0 wretched man that I am." He called himself "the chief of sinners." He said the things that he would do, he did not, and the things he would not do, he did. Probably Jesus was Lord of more of Paul's life than any other person who ever lived, but Paul himself said he had not yet apprehended.
by Dr. Jack Hyles:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books..._salvation.htm


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## Artfuldodger

I'm just asking for feelings on the topic. Does Lordship Salvation equal works? Does salvation have to be one or the other?


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm just asking for feelings on the topic. Does Lordship Salvation equal works? Does salvation have to be one or the other?


Salvation is either by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone,


Or


It is by the free will, works and worthiness of man.


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## Boot

IMHO, we are justified, or saved by faith alone. However, that faith, if real, will produce obedience to the Fathers commandments, ALL of them, not just the ones that are easy or socially acceptable. Y'all youtube "True and false conversions" by Ray Comfort, he explains it alot better than I ever could.


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## rjcruiser

I didn't realize that free grace was opposition to Lordship salvation.

God freely gives His grace to us (Rom 3:23).  He also gives us the desire to love him with every aspect of our lives and do good works (James 2)


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## mtnwoman

rjcruiser said:


> I didn't realize that free grace was opposition to Lordship salvation.
> 
> God freely gives His grace to us (Rom 3:23).  He also gives us the desire to love him with every aspect of our lives and do good works (James 2)



I agree. I didn't think it was either/or.
Maybe I just don't get the question.


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## Artfuldodger

Boot said:


> IMHO, we are justified, or saved by faith alone. However, that faith, if real, will produce obedience to the Fathers commandments, ALL of them, not just the ones that are easy or socially acceptable. Y'all youtube "True and false conversions" by Ray Comfort, he explains it alot better than I ever could.



I can't doubt the lessons of Lordship Salvation, just the concept is different from Free Grace Salvation. 
If one looks at the Ray Comfort video, look at the comments too. Ray does teach Lordship Salvation and it appears he is preaching that if a Christian continues to sin, then his Salvation isn't real. He had a false conversion. I do believe Christians are know by their fruits but isn't it being a little self righteous for us to say who is saved and who isn't.
A big part of their doctrine is Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


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## Artfuldodger

mtnwoman said:


> I agree. I didn't think it was either/or.
> Maybe I just don't get the question.



That was the reason for my question. I didn't know there was a division. In fact I've never even heard the term "Lordship Salvation" until today. I'm still learning about it. 
For some reason Kirk Cameron's name comes up in reading about it. 
I do believe in works as being part of salvation but very few Christians do believe  this. That's one reason for the research. That being said, there is something about it that is putting up a red flag in my heart and I don't know why.

I guess Ray Comforts "false conversion" is a way to say a person was never a christian to begin with which is used by many believers as a justification for falling away. I could even go that far but to say a Christian quits sinning, I can't agree with.


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## Artfuldodger

John 6:40...
    “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

I know this is just one verse but what about Christians, sins, and fruit? How does Lordship Salvation become a part of this?


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> As it relates to how individuals are saved, there are two main positions that scholars take; one position is the free grace view, the other is the lordship salvation view. The former states that a believer receives the right to live with God for all eternity solely by the grace of God which is given at no cost to the believer. The latter states that the right to live with God for all eternity is not only based on trust in God but totally and completely surrendering every aspect of their lives to God.
> 
> Now here are some observations about Lordship salvation.
> 1. In the final analysis, it is salvation by works, which is in direct contrast to the teaching of the Scriptures.
> 2. If one must accept Christ as Lord of his life in order to be saved, it would of necessity remove growth in grace.
> 3. Lordship salvation necessitates the doctrine of losing one's salvation. If one must make Jesus his Lord in order to be saved, then when he backslides to the position to where Jesus is no longer his Lord, consistency would drive us to believe that he is no longer saved.
> 4. Lordship salvation makes no provision for the carnal Christian. None of us takes pleasure in the carnality of a Christian, but the fact remains that there is such a person taught in the Bible.
> 5. Lordship salvation removes grace and would nullify the plainest verses in the Bible concerning salvation.
> 6. Salvation is receiving, not giving.
> 3. When Christ enters, the old man does not leave.
> Perhaps the greatest Christian who ever lived was the Apostle Paul. In speaking of himself he said, "0 wretched man that I am." He called himself "the chief of sinners." He said the things that he would do, he did not, and the things he would not do, he did. Probably Jesus was Lord of more of Paul's life than any other person who ever lived, but Paul himself said he had not yet apprehended.
> by Dr. Jack Hyles:
> http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books..._salvation.htm



This thing reminds me of an archery target I saw today, full of holes but none in the middle.


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## rjcruiser

Heres a great article on what Lordship Salvation is and the reasons behind defining it


http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/A114


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## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> This thing reminds me of an archery target I saw today, full of holes but none in the middle.



Could you elaborate a little more? Do you agree with Lordship Salvation? Is anything else just a watered down religion to appease the masses?
Is Salvation from God or our ability of our "new nature" to overcome sin? 
Is sin something we should try to overcome to show our love to God or is it an invention of God to show us we can't overcome sin?


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Salvation is either by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone,
> Or
> It is by the free will, works and worthiness of man.



I agree your belief is easier. This Lordship salvation is leaning more to Predestination beliefs than Freewill. 
It is a belief that you give up your will and accept God's will. In affect you "surrender all". God takes over control of your life. 
Don't you agree that Christians don't sin? This would certainly explain why.


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## Ronnie T

Scripturally...........

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

*lot's of stuff contained in those three verses.


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## Mako22

Lordship salvation = the heretic John McCarthur who will one day swim for all eternity in the lake of fire, hyper Calvinist nut job that he is!


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Scripturally...........
> 
> Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
> 
> *lot's of stuff contained in those three verses.



I'm confused that you suggesed we all read books by David Platt the new Lordship Salvation preacher who is becoming the new John MacCarthur. 
Do we read his material and pick out the free will parts like reading Spurgeon? I would agree I don't have to follow their beliefs, at least all of them to gain some knowledge from them.

http://expreacherman.com/2012/11/13...penly-declares-his-lordship-salvation-stance/

Many times in Radical, Platt makes discipleship a prerequisite to salvation.
http://gbcfacultyblog.wordpress.com/2012/10/01/5/


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## Artfuldodger

Calvinistas 
Somewhat related as they preach Lordship Salvation and write lots of books:
These men hang around in groups such as The Gospel Coalition and Together for the Gospel. They write lots of books, endorse each others’ books, and fly around to lots of conferences where they hear each other speak, etc. They stress big churches and pull in big incomes. They are so sought after that they are asked to autograph Bibles by their admirers. Some of the big boys in this movement (it's important to stress that this is a predominantly a male thing since women have no place in church leadership) include: Mark Driscoll, CJ Mahaney, Joshua Harris, John Piper, Matt Chandler, Mark Dever, Al Mohler, David Platt, and Francis Chan, among a growing throng of leaders who want to catch the Calvinista wave.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/09...is-chan-two-calvinistas-i-could-grow-to-love/


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## gemcgrew

Woodsman69 said:


> Lordship salvation = the heretic John McCarthur who will one day swim for all eternity in the lake of fire, hyper Calvinist nut job that he is!


That is a bold accusation, so I will wait for your evidence. Hyper Calvinist label MacArthur as an Arminian and his Lordship salvation as legalism. I see MacArthur using Lordship salvation in a way that exposes easy believism as the empty shell that it is.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> That is a bold accusation, so I will wait for your evidence. Hyper Calvinist label MacArthur as an Arminian and his Lordship salvation as legalism. I see MacArthur using Lordship salvation in a way that exposes easy believism as the empty shell that it is.



Don't you just hate all these labels we put on each other, me included? I've been on here long enough to know that you don't fall under a label per say.

I don't agree with Woodsman's bold statement either. Salvation is between God & MacArthur. MacArthur's salvation that is.


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## hobbs27

Free grace or Lordship salvation? Arent these two terms rules man has come up with and both are limited by mans rules?Can't the God Almighty save who He wants how He wants?
I generally feel it takes a broken heart, an understanding that Jesus hung on the cross not so much for the worlds sin, but for yours [it is personal], and an acceptance into the family, a re-birth if you will, spiritually.
 I also believe God is bigger than doctrinal limitations of man, and deal with each one of us on His terms.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Free grace or Lordship salvation? Arent these two terms rules man has come up with and both are limited by mans rules?Can't the God Almighty save who He wants how He wants?
> I generally feel it takes a broken heart, an understanding that Jesus hung on the cross not so much for the worlds sin, but for yours [it is personal], and an acceptance into the family, a re-birth if you will, spiritually.
> I also believe God is bigger than doctrinal limitations of man, and deal with each one of us on His terms.



I like your way of thinking. I too believe salvation is between God and man on an individual basis. Just as each child is different, we rear them differently according to the individual.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree your belief is easier. This Lordship salvation is leaning more to Predestination beliefs than Freewill.


We would have to settle on a definition of what "Lordship salvation" is. For some, it is "making Christ Lord of your life". I would reject that because I know that I did not make Jesus Lord of my life, God did, "and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."


Artfuldodger said:


> It is a belief that you give up your will and accept God's will. In affect you "surrender all". God takes over control of your life.


There is no point in my life where God was not in control of it. He is either in absolute control of all things or not. If He is not, He is not God over all. 


Artfuldodger said:


> Don't you agree that Christians don't sin? This would certainly explain why.


Of course I do not agree. All believers have two natures, flesh and spirit, warring against each other.


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## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Scripturally...........
> 
> Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
> 
> *lot's of stuff contained in those three verses.





Artfuldodger said:


> I'm confused that you suggesed we all read books by David Platt the new Lordship Salvation preacher who is becoming the new John MacCarthur. Do we read his material and pick out the free will parts like reading Spurgeon? I would agree I don't have to follow their beliefs, at least all of them to gain some knowledge from them.
> 
> http://expreacherman.com/2012/11/13...penly-declares-his-lordship-salvation-stance/
> 
> Many times in Radical, Platt makes discipleship a prerequisite to salvation.
> http://gbcfacultyblog.wordpress.com/2012/10/01/5/



I don't recall suggesting that anyone read his book.
And walking in the light is always about discipleship.


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## Huntinfool

Woodsman69 said:


> Lordship salvation = the heretic John McCarthur who will one day swim for all eternity in the lake of fire, hyper Calvinist nut job that he is!





I imagine RJ will be along shortly...




I will say this.  There are a lot of preachers I don't agree with or just plain old think are wrong on things.  I can't recall that I would ever go so far as to refer to any of them as heretic nutjobs.

I'm reminded of a verse I memorized recently and it has come back to me many times over the past few months...

"Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths.  But only that which is good for building up, as suits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear."

I'm sure I messed it up a little since it's from memory.  But you get the gist.  Great job Woodsman.


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## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Don't you just hate all these labels we put on each other, me included? I've been on here long enough to know that you don't fall under a label per say.
> 
> I don't agree with Woodsman's bold statement either. Salvation is between God & MacArthur. MacArthur's salvation that is.



Nothing will keep me out of a discussion more than seeing all these silly labels and groupings that often come up.  If you "hate" it, why do you do it so often?


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't agree with Woodsman's bold statement either.


It is nothing more than a slanderous, malicious, false defamatory statement. I hope that Woodsman will provide his biblical evidence or retract the post.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Nothing will keep me out of a discussion more than seeing all these silly labels and groupings that often come up.  If you "hate" it, why do you do it so often?



I was referring to me as a labeler, not a hater of labels. It's just human nature. We like for everything to be black or white, Democrat or Republican, liberal or conservative, Catholic or Protestant, Freewill or Predestination, Ford or Chevy.
Labeling is one of my weaknesses. I can't even attend a Church without wondering what their Creed is. I went to a Lutheran Church recently and was glad they posted their Creed in the bulletin.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> I don't recall suggesting that anyone read his book.
> And walking in the light is always about discipleship.



It was from this thread;

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=739351


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## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> I was referring to me as a labeler, not a hater of labels. It's just human nature. We like for everything to be black or white, Democrat or Republican, liberal or conservative, Catholic or Protestant, Freewill or Predestination, Ford or Chevy.
> Labeling is one of my weaknesses. I can't even attend a Church without wondering what their Creed is. I went to a Lutheran Church recently and was glad they posted their Creed in the bulletin.


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## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> It was from this thread;
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=739351



I didn't suggest everyone read the book.  I suggest everyone watch the 4 minute video.
I just rewatched the video and still hope everyone else watched it.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> I didn't suggest everyone read the book.  I suggest everyone watch the 4 minute video.
> I just rewatched the video and still hope everyone else watched it.



My apology for reading that into it. I agree it needs to be watched. I agree with the concept as I said earlier. I just don't buy into the preacher's overall concept.  I do agree with discipleship.
Am I trying to seperate everything from salvation except grace & faith?  Is this wrong? I'm trying to 
understand law, sin, works, & fruit and there difference if there is one.

It just looks like he is teaching that there is more to salvation than grace & faith and maybe there is. Some Christians look at this Lordship Salvation as if it is terribly wrong while others look at it as it is the only way.
I don't know enough about it to even form an opinion and I can't pinpoint why I'm struggling with the concept.  I will definitely pray about it and learn all I can.

Again as Ronnie said and I agree watch the video from this thread;

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=739351


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> It just looks like he is teaching that there is more to salvation than grace & faith and maybe there is.


I have friends from childhood that profess to be Christian. In the 30 plus years, their lifestyles say otherwise. Where is the fruit?


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## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> That was the reason for my question. I didn't know there was a division. In fact I've never even heard the term "Lordship Salvation" until today. I'm still learning about it.
> For some reason Kirk Cameron's name comes up in reading about it.
> I do believe in works as being part of salvation but very few Christians do believe  this. That's one reason for the research. That being said, there is something about it that is putting up a red flag in my heart and I don't know why.
> 
> I guess Ray Comforts "false conversion" is a way to say a person was never a christian to begin with which is used by many believers as a justification for falling away. I could even go that far but to say a Christian quits sinning, I can't agree with.



Ok, gotcha. I agree pretty much with this post. I'll read up on it, too...and haven't heard of it either. 

I guess my view on works, is that it doesn't (by itself) lead to salvation. But I do believe that it comes along with salvation, not necessarily as a 'must' but more of a want to, or conviction of. I believe Jesus loves/helps/feeds/clothes others 'thru' us..I'll hate to be judged for not letting that happen.


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## Ronnie T

Here are two truths.

Truth #1.  Every saved person brought their sins and repentance, and laid them at the foot of Jesus' cross.  Those people were forgiven of their past sins and accepted by God by virtue of their faith in God, Jesus Christ, and His Gospel.

Truth #2.  Every person of faith, who walks in the light(ways) of Jesus Christ, will have all their sins continually forgiven by the cleansing blood of Jesus. (1John 1).


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Truth #1.  Every saved person brought their sins and repentance, and laid them at the foot of Jesus' cross.  Those people were forgiven of their past sins and accepted by God by virtue of their faith in God, Jesus Christ, and His Gospel.


My faith is not my Savior, Christ is. I have no acceptance before God but Christ.



Ronnie T said:


> Truth #2.  Every person of faith, who walks in the light(ways) of Jesus Christ, will have all their sins continually forgiven by the cleansing blood of Jesus. (1John 1).


I smell works salvation.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Here are two truths.
> 
> Truth #1.  Every saved person brought their sins and repentance, and laid them at the foot of Jesus' cross.  Those people were forgiven of their past sins and accepted by God by virtue of their faith in God, Jesus Christ, and His Gospel.
> 
> Truth #2.  Every person of faith, who walks in the light(ways) of Jesus Christ, will have all their sins continually forgiven by the cleansing blood of Jesus. (1John 1).



That's the way I see it too. If "walks in the light" in Truth #2 means works then so be it.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> My faith is not my Savior, Christ is. I have no acceptance before God but Christ.
> 
> I smell works salvation.



How is "walks in the light" different from fruit? 

I'm guessing but would assume in your Church a person would never say they have accepted Jesus but just make a statement to the affect that "Jesus saved me last night and gave me the gift of the Holy Spirit?"


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> How is "walks in the light" different from fruit?


I was not addressing that as much as the "Those people were forgiven of their past sins" and "who walks in the light(ways) of Jesus Christ, will have all their sins continually forgiven by the cleansing blood of Jesus."

This appears to make forgiveness of sin to be dependent upon something man does or continues to do.


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## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> Heres a great article on what Lordship Salvation is and the reasons behind defining it
> 
> http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/A114



I've read it a couple of times yesterday and today. Is Lordship Salvation something a person of free will can do? How does one begin?
I have a few questions from the article;
1)Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47) that consists not of a human work but of a divinely bestowed grace (Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25)END QUOTE
This makes it sound like a Christian has no choice or it becomes a human work. If it's not divinely bestowed on me did I have a "false conversion?"
2) Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Eph. 2:1-5,8). END QUOTE
 If I have faith it has to be God within me. If I have faith because of free will it is a "work" and I had a "false conversion?"
3)Faith therefore involves personal commitment to Christ (2 Cor. 5:15). In other words, all true believers follow Jesus (John 10:27-28). END QUOTE
Didn't he just contradict himself? How can I have a "personal commitment" & "follow" Jesus if faith isn't a "work" of man?
4) Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matt. 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Eph. 2:10), and continue in the faith (Col. 1:21-23; Heb. 3:14).END QUOTE
And none of that requires any "work" from me? None of that is remotely related to the "law?"
5)Fifth, Scripture teaches that God's gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3; Rom. 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven. In contrast, according to easy-believism, only the judicial aspects of salvation (e.g., justification, adoption, and positional sanctification) are guaranteed for believers in this life; practical sanctification and growth in grace require a post-conversion act of dedication. END QUOTE
I'm not sure what he is saying the difference is in easy-believism's view.
6) Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Rom. 6:17-18; 10:9-10).END QUOTE  Is the faith that Jesus demands, the same faith that isn't a "work" of man? Define unconditional surrender: do I leave my wife and sell my worldly possessions? 
7)Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ. END QUOTE   I agree with this one.
8) Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3).END QUOTE   I agree with this one as long as I can use my free will to be "obedient."
9)In contrast, easy-believism teaches that a true believer may utterly forsake Christ and come to the point of not believing. END QUOTE I personally believe a Christian still has free will to return the gift of salvation. Most Christians don't believe that. either way how is that belief tied into "Lordship Salvation?" I guess this one is thrown in to show that some people have "false conversions."


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## Artfuldodger

What or who causes these "false conversions?" I can't see God performing one of these. I mean if election is true and he doesn't want to save them is one thing, but to drag them to an Alter for a "false conversion" I can't see him doing. 
That's why I think the conversion was heartfelt and real at the time but the person never let the Holy Spirit into their heart or just abandoned him later. 
I realize most people don't follow this belief.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> I was not addressing that as much as the "Those people were forgiven of their past sins" and "who walks in the light(ways) of Jesus Christ, will have all their sins continually forgiven by the cleansing blood of Jesus."
> 
> This appears to make forgiveness of sin to be dependent upon something man does or continues to do.



Understood.
And of accepting Jesus?


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Could you elaborate a little more?
> It would be difficult to respond with more detail to Jack Hyle's statement simply because there is so much wrong with it.
> 
> Do you agree with Lordship Salvation?
> I don't know what it is, so I couldn't say.
> 
> 
> Is anything else just a watered down religion to appease the masses?
> I doubt it, but without knowing what it is, I couldn't say for sure.  There certainly is a great deal of "watered down religion" available in the market today, and I suppose that a lot of it is probably market driven.
> 
> Is Salvation from God or our ability of our "new nature" to overcome sin?
> Salvation is from God alone and for His own purposes only and will serve only those purposes.  "New nature" is also from God alone and for His own purposes only and will serve only those purposes.
> 
> Is sin something we ***should *** try to overcome to show our love to God or is it an invention of God to show us we can't overcome sin?
> First, see "New Nature".  God uses His chosen people in many ways for His glory, how they deal with sin in their lives is one of those ways.  Their love for Him and their love of His providence is another of those ways.



**Something I stumbled on to when playing around with my Strong's Concordance:
of the 350+ times that the word "should" is used in the NT (KJV), in only 28 cases is it a direct translation of a Greek work.  Of the 400+ times that "should" appears in the OT (KJV), none is a direct translation of a word in the original language.


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> I was not addressing that as much as the "Those people were forgiven of their past sins" and "who walks in the light(ways) of Jesus Christ, will have all their sins continually forgiven by the cleansing blood of Jesus."
> 
> This appears to make forgiveness of sin to be dependent upon something man does or continues to do.



All I did was provide bible information.  I didn't make it up.

See 1John 1.
Or most of Jesus' parables.
Or Jesus dialog concerning, "I was hungry and you gave me to drink."


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> What or who causes these "false conversions?" I can't see God performing one of these. I mean if election is true and he doesn't want to save them is one thing, but to drag them to an Alter for a "false conversion" I can't see him doing.


Can you see him "sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie"? Or "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."?


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> All I did was provide bible information.  I didn't make it up.


Ambiguous at best. God's word does not proclaim the possibility of forgiveness, but the accomplishment of forgiveness.
"Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins."


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I have friends from childhood that profess to be Christian. In the 30 plus years, their lifestyles say otherwise. Where is the fruit?



Maybe they weren't 'chosen' to be part of the elect, so why would they produce fruit?


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I was not addressing that as much as the "Those people were forgiven of their past sins" and "who walks in the light(ways) of Jesus Christ, will have all their sins continually forgiven by the cleansing blood of Jesus."
> 
> This appears to make forgiveness of sin to be dependent upon something man does or continues to do.



Ok, now I'm confused....as usual..lol. We do or we don't have to work on our actions? If we're 'chosen', why do we have to do anything? Aren't we saved no matter what we do or don't do?


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## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> **Something I stumbled on to when playing around with my Strong's Concordance:
> of the 350+ times that the word "should" is used in the NT (KJV), in only 28 cases is it a direct translation of a Greek work.  Of the 400+ times that "should" appears in the OT (KJV), none is a direct translation of a word in the original language.



What about the Old Testament? Just curious. Did you also look for "shall?"

You would have to look at the context of the verse. If Jesus is stating "you should keep my Father's commandments" or "you should have faith in me", he literally means "you" and not "me in you." 
There are just too many verses of shall and shan't for it to mean any other way.


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## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Maybe they weren't 'chosen' to be part of the elect, so why would they produce fruit?


Maybe they are elect but have not yet experienced regeneration.


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## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> All I did was provide bible information.  I didn't make it up.
> 
> See 1John 1.
> Or most of Jesus' parables.
> Or Jesus dialog concerning, "I was hungry and you gave me to drink."





gemcgrew said:


> Ambiguous at best. God's word does not proclaim the possibility of forgiveness, but the accomplishment of forgiveness.
> "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins."



Again, I provided scriptural material that directly relates to the specific subject.  And I didn't go way over yonder to get a scripture.


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## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Ok, now I'm confused....as usual..lol. We do or we don't have to work on our actions? If we're 'chosen', why do we have to do anything?


Because you were chosen to be something and to do something.


mtnwoman said:


> Aren't we saved no matter what we do or don't do?


We have no role in salvation. Salvation is entirely the work of the triune God.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Again, I provided scriptural material that directly relates to the specific subject.  And I didn't go way over yonder to get a scripture.


No, you are misusing 1 John 1 to promote a works religion, salvation. Salvation is in no way dependent upon our personal obedience. 
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." (Romans 4:4)


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Can you see him "sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie"? Or "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."?



What I'm trying to understand is the concept of a false conversion, not how much of it was God or how much of it was me. 
I have found six warning signs of a "false conversion." I can't say I agree with it.

Sign #1 – Immediate Joy That Doesn’t Last
Jesus says that a sign of a false convert is a person who is immediately filled with joy upon hearing the gospel message, but followed by a quick fading away. 

To me emotions are different from each person to the next. This is why you might see someone cry at a wedding and laugh at a funeral. I agree with the quick fading away but not the emotion of Joy.

http://www.bereanwife.net/2008/07/six-signs-of-a-false-conversion/


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> No, you are misusing 1 John 1 to promote a works religion, salvation. Salvation is in no way dependent upon our personal obedience.
> "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." (Romans 4:4)



I'm not trying to promote a works religion.  There is no works religion.

Since you say I'm misusing 1 John maybe you would explain the thrust of the following.

1John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.


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## Artfuldodger

3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Why did Jesus say we are no longer under the Law and then tell us we must keep His commandments? He didn't say we would automatically do this as in fruit in this verse.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> I'm not trying to promote a works religion.  There is no works religion.


That puts you at odds with much of scripture.



Ronnie T said:


> Since you say I'm misusing 1 John maybe you would explain the thrust of the following.


Did I not understand you correctly? Did you not put forward the notion that forgiveness of sins is determined by something we do? 

I am about to leave the house and will return late tomorrow, Lord willing.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> That puts you at odds with much of scripture.
> 
> 
> Did I not understand you correctly? Did you not put forward the notion that forgiveness of sins is determined by something we do?
> 
> I am about to leave the house and will return late tomorrow, Lord willing.



And we're finally back on topic. Free Grace vs. Lordship Salvation. 
Do we keep the New Covenant commandments or not? If not you are a  liar, and the truth is not in you. We are talking real live commandments. 
I think that is what the Lordship Salvation is saying. Maybe they just have a strange way of conveying their message.

Please watch the video:


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## rjcruiser

Woodsman69 said:


> Lordship salvation = the heretic John McCarthur who will one day swim for all eternity in the lake of fire, hyper Calvinist nut job that he is!





Huntinfool said:


> I imagine RJ will be along shortly...[/COLOR]





Life/Work got in the way to respond, but posts that are so far off in left field don't need a response to show them for what they are.


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## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> Life/Work got in the way to respond, but posts that are so far off in left field don't need a response to show them for what they are.



And the bad thing is he doesn't stay around and defend his statements.


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Maybe they are elect but have not yet experienced regeneration.



What is the something we are to be, and the something we are to do?  I hope you have done 'the' something about your friends.


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Because you were chosen to be something and to do something.



Something like what?


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## Boot

Our "works", are obedience, and fear (read reverence) for the Almighty. Not earning our way to heaven, earning salvation, or earning anything. The Lord created us and we as His children owe Him our very existence. The commandments are instructions for how to live this life according to His will. We are to "Be holy for I am holy" and we are called to be imitators of Christ. The "works" are simply the Lords way of sanctifying us after He alone saved us. Salvation is walking thru the door, sanctification is the journey from the folks we were, to the children of Yahweh that He wants and calls us to be. Salvation is a gift to us from the Father, but it was at a cost. The Son, who ALWAYS obeyed the Fathers will, paid a terrible, horrific price. When I studied and realized what it cost the Father, to provide me with the gift of salvation, I went from being a believer, to being a FOLLOWER of Christ. There is a difference. When we were all kids, we did what daddy told us to do, and as we got older, we realized that it was for our own good and benefit. Our heavenly Father is not that much different. He calls us to be set apart from things of this world, and that is for our own good, even if we don't understand every instruction. I think sometimes folks confuse "works" with obedience, or reverence for the Lord. I myself have nothing He didn't give me in the first place. The way to make my daddy happy, was to do as he asked and grow into a man that he wanted to see raise his grandchildren. The way to to make the Father happy is to follow His instruction, and grow to be more like the Son He gave up to pay my debt. In that process, we'll have work to do, have growing pains, and we'll bear fruit fitting to offer the Creator of the universe, who also happens to desire to live in our heart. Sometimes He has to do a little remodeling, before we are fit to move into. Christ was 100% man, but had " an un-measureable indwelling of the Holy Spirit", therefore was able to resist all temptation, and lead a holy life. Thats what we're shootin for, and I for one, don't see me getting anywhere close doing things my way. So the only option is, live His way, by His instructions, my "work" doesn't earn anything, but my obedience draws me near to the Father. Y'all all have a blessed Sabbath, and I hope the Almighty rains peace and His love on us all.


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## hummerpoo

Boot said:


> Our "works", are obedience, and fear (read reverence) for the Almighty. Not earning our way to heaven, earning salvation, or earning anything. The Lord created us and we as His children owe Him our very existence. The commandments are instructions for how to live this life according to His will. We are to "Be holy for I am holy" and we are called to be imitators of Christ. The "works" are simply the Lords way of sanctifying us after He alone saved us. Salvation is walking thru the door, sanctification is the journey from the folks we were, to the children of Yahweh that He wants and calls us to be. Salvation is a gift to us from the Father, but it was at a cost. The Son, who ALWAYS obeyed the Fathers will, paid a terrible, horrific price. When I studied and realized what it cost the Father, to provide me with the gift of salvation, I went from being a believer, to being a FOLLOWER of Christ. There is a difference. When we were all kids, we did what daddy told us to do, and as we got older, we realized that it was for our own good and benefit. Our heavenly Father is not that much different. He calls us to be set apart from things of this world, and that is for our own good, even if we don't understand every instruction. I think sometimes folks confuse "works" with obedience, or reverence for the Lord. I myself have nothing He didn't give me in the first place. The way to make my daddy happy, was to do as he asked and grow into a man that he wanted to see raise his grandchildren. The way to to make the Father happy is to follow His instruction, and grow to be more like the Son He gave up to pay my debt. In that process, we'll have work to do, have growing pains, and we'll bear fruit fitting to offer the Creator of the universe, who also happens to desire to live in our heart. Sometimes He has to do a little remodeling, before we are fit to move into. Christ was 100% man, but had " an un-measureable indwelling of the Holy Spirit", therefore was able to resist all temptation, and lead a holy life. Thats what we're shootin for, and I for one, don't see me getting anywhere close doing things my way. So the only option is, live His way, by His instructions, my "work" doesn't earn anything, but my obedience draws me near to the Father. Y'all all have a blessed Sabbath, and I hope the Almighty rains peace and His love on us all.



Well said.


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## Artfuldodger

Boot said:


> Our "works", are obedience, and fear (read reverence) for the Almighty. Not earning our way to heaven, earning salvation, or earning anything. The Lord created us and we as His children owe Him our very existence. The commandments are instructions for how to live this life according to His will. We are to "Be holy for I am holy" and we are called to be imitators of Christ. The "works" are simply the Lords way of sanctifying us after He alone saved us. Salvation is walking thru the door, sanctification is the journey from the folks we were, to the children of Yahweh that He wants and calls us to be. Salvation is a gift to us from the Father, but it was at a cost. The Son, who ALWAYS obeyed the Fathers will, paid a terrible, horrific price. When I studied and realized what it cost the Father, to provide me with the gift of salvation, I went from being a believer, to being a FOLLOWER of Christ. There is a difference. When we were all kids, we did what daddy told us to do, and as we got older, we realized that it was for our own good and benefit. Our heavenly Father is not that much different. He calls us to be set apart from things of this world, and that is for our own good, even if we don't understand every instruction. I think sometimes folks confuse "works" with obedience, or reverence for the Lord. I myself have nothing He didn't give me in the first place. The way to make my daddy happy, was to do as he asked and grow into a man that he wanted to see raise his grandchildren. The way to to make the Father happy is to follow His instruction, and grow to be more like the Son He gave up to pay my debt. In that process, we'll have work to do, have growing pains, and we'll bear fruit fitting to offer the Creator of the universe, who also happens to desire to live in our heart. Sometimes He has to do a little remodeling, before we are fit to move into. Christ was 100% man, but had " an un-measureable indwelling of the Holy Spirit", therefore was able to resist all temptation, and lead a holy life. Thats what we're shootin for, and I for one, don't see me getting anywhere close doing things my way. So the only option is, live His way, by His instructions, my "work" doesn't earn anything, but my obedience draws me near to the Father. Y'all all have a blessed Sabbath, and I hope the Almighty rains peace and His love on us all.



X2, Do you do any preaching? Hopefully you are at least a Sunday School teacher.


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## Boot

Lol. No sir, I'm a heavy equipment / diesel mechanic. A while back, after I found grace, and was saved, I went to church every week, read my bible, gave tithe, said the blessing before dinner, stopped cussing, gave up looking at alot of things on the web, etc etc. I was trying to be a good christian. I know in my heart and soul I was saved the night I cried to the Almighty, my "sinners prayer" was mostly tears and snot, and the only words you could've probably made out was "I'm sorry". And I WAS SORRY. My life was not what anyone would call "holy". Fast fwd a year, church was mundane, seemed like a weeky repeat of an hour long "alter call", but I continued to go, continued to read my bible, not understanding what is actually there. I wondered if maybe I'd done something wrong, maybe God had forgotten me, maybe I wasn't really saved? I prayed and prayed and prayed, wanting to know why I didnt feel as close to God as I did at the time He forgave my sin, and saved me. He sent a fellow to work with me, that shared some things that I never heard in church. Since then, I have began to understand scripture like never before. A couple things that come to mind; Yahweh, ( I prefer His actual name over the word "God". Its easier to have a personal relationship, not using a generic term, which means anything thats worshipped) never ever changes. To be "just", and we all agree He is just and holy, He wouldnt set different rules/commandments/guidelines for different people/times/societies. Seeing this, I studied further, and learned more and more, for example, Christ said "no man has seen or heard the Fathers voice". We all agree that Christ never lied, further study showed me that it was Christ that gave the law on mt sinai. I studied into crucifiction itself, and learned what a HORRIBLE way that was to die. The bible became one book, not 2 seperate testaments, with a jew half and a gentile half. When I read and study now, I look up the original hebrew or greek meanings to words. ALOT is lost in translation!!!! Anyway, I figured out that the Almighty will give us understanding if we truly seek HIS kingdom. I decided to start making a few changes in my life, and got alot fo grief from family, friends, and co-workers. At first, my family was NOT happy about giving up pork, but now, my wife wont even allow it in the house, and my children dont eat it away from home. We also keep the sabbath, I dont/wont work on Saturday anymore. Its the 7th day, and therefore, to be holy and set apart. I fellowship now more often than ever before, I am happy to say that I am less stressed, and MUCH closer to the Lord than ever before. We dont celebrate easter or christmas, because I feel they were based in pagean rituals originally, and we are commanded not to worship Yahweh the way the pageans worship their gods, and not to adopt rituals of pagean peoples. Now, let me say this, I DO NOT EXPECT ANYONE TO CHANGE THEIR HOLIDAYS, STOP EATING PORK, TAKE SATURDAYS OFF, OR CHANGE THEIR BELIEFS BASED ON ANYTHING I SAY. I am sharing these things because of the life my family and I have been blessed with since I chose to stop "interpreting scripture" , and just do what is written in the Bible. I'm sure I have MUCH MUCH more to learn, and will be making lifestyle changes as we grow further toward the Lord. The small steps my household has taken to do things His way, has not only brought us all closer to Him, it has strenghthened the family, strenghthened my marriage, and renewed and fortified my faith. I am in no way claiming to have all the answers, or be perfect. I have broken all the commandments in my life, and am ashamed of the fact. When I started studying the "law" of scripture, it seems clear now that it wasn't given to condemn us, but its there to point out our need for faith in Christ. Until I realized just how unholy I was, I didnt fully appreciate and cherish the gift given to me by the Father, and the sacrifice made by the Son. So, on to my point after rambling. For me personally, I try to simply do whats in the scripture, as I learn it, and it has made a tremendous difference in my life. If anyone is wondering about their faith, its worth doing. Do something you dont understand, based solely on the fact that the Lord said so, THATS faith. Take a step toward Him, and He'll draw you near. Doesn't matter if you give up pork, observe the Sabbath, stop doing christmas/easter, or whatever. Read, ask for guidance, and just change something to His way. He'll give you what you need to do. My "works" are nothing more than trying to live the way I believe the Lord wants me to live. I earn nothing , and deserve nothing except death for my sins, but the Son of Yahweh himself, paid my debt, and I owe my eternal life to the giver of that gift, and the forgiver of that debt. I can not offer anything to the Almighty that makes Him greater than He is, for me, it aint work, its just doing what Daddy said do, because I want to please Him.


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## hummerpoo

Boot, I desire to affirm and encourage you on your path, but in truth, I am the one affirmed and encouraged.


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## Artfuldodger

I wish us all to do as Boot and find our way to the truth. As he said, don't do as he Boot says, do it as the scriptures say. In other words pray for guidance and find out for yourself.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I wish us all to do as Boot and find our way to the truth. As he said, don't do as he Boot says, do it as the scriptures say. In other words pray for guidance and find out for yourself.



Ironic isn't it how we all read the same scripture and yet we can come out of it with totally different meanings.I wonder sometimes just how much of the scripture people are reading when they start believing in strange things, like not eating pork, or saturday worship for Christians.It seems most believers like that pick a couple of verses and repeat them over and over without putting them into context...The good thing is as long as they continue to study a true meaning will eventually soak in.


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## Boot

I guess "believing in strange things" depends on one's point of view. We could go back and forth all day quoting verse after verse, to no avail. I'll explain my way of thinking, so maybe everyone can understand better. Again, I'M IN NO WAY PREACHING, OR CONDEMNING ANYONE WHO DOESN'T AGREE WITH MY THOUGHTS, I'm simply sharing my ongoing journey, with fellow believers. Ok, for Christ to have paid MY debt, He would have to owe no debt on His own, (debt= wages of sin is death). The new testament wasn't written til after He had ascended back into heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. So, by default, when Christ said "it is written" , or ever qouted scripture, it had to have been what we call the old testament. We all base our faith in the fact that Christ lived a perfect life, therfore owed no sin debt, and paid mine by choosing to follow the Fathers will. If he never sinned, which I believe means breaking the Fathers law, then Christ would not have eaten pork or any other unclean animal, He would have went to worship on the 7th day of the week (which we call saturday), and many more things that society today would deem "strange". It wasn't until I STOPPED picking a few verses here and there, and started reading/studying the entire book that it started to make sense. We can worship ANY day of the week, and probably should be all 7 days, but the 7th day is to be set apart, and kept holy. That's in the 10 commandments, not an interpretation of an obscure scripture taken out of context. The roman church changed the "day of worship" to sunday at the council of laodecia, several hundred years after Christs death. Sunday is FINE for church, worship, fellowship, or work. It is the first day of the week, and the Almighty was workin on the 1st day, creating light and dark. Thats in everyones bible the same way. Not an interpretation. We can all go to church on sunday to worship and fellowship, however, for me, I will observe the sabbath, on the 7th day (saturday), for the simple reason that the Almighty Himself rested on the 7th day, and made it holy, then it was commanded to honor the sabbath day (7th day(saturday)) when the law that Christ obeyed was given on Mt Sinai. I choose not to eat animals that were labeled as "unclean", for the simple reason that for Christ to have lived sin free, He would've chosen to abstain from "unclean" foods as well. He had the Torah, or old testament to go by, and it plainly says consuming pork is an abomination. As for christmas and easter, things were integrated by Constantine, in order to gain favor from society in general. My bible plainly states that I am not to worship the way pageans worshipped, or adopt habits/customs of pageans. Dont get offended, I'm not labeling anyone a pagean. I think 2000 years has diluted what was originally in scripture, and folks just do what they are taught by grandma/grandpa, or what they learn at modern mainstream church. Saying things like satuday is the 7th day, and the sabbath, and saying pork is an unclean food, does NOT fill up church pews or offering plates, so things just keep on keeping on, status quo, like it's always been. Scripture also plainly states "study to show thyself approved", so I started studying deeper and deeper, into the original meaning of the words in hebrew and greek. Our modern translations are good, but alot is lost in the translation. For example, the KJV is the only one that has the word "easter". Other translations all use the original word "Passover". Little things like that got me more and more interested, and the deeper I studied, the more Yahweh revealed. At first, my family thought I'd lost my mind, but they are all understanding now, the same as me. I get grief from friends about not eating pork, but I cant find a single person who can show me in any scripture, that Yeshua (Jesus) ever ate pork, or condoned it. I have changed alot more than just observing sabbath, and not eating pork anymore, but those were mentioned, and always seem to be what people in general pick out to flame me on. I'm sure I'd be labeled "strange" by alot of folks if they lived a month at my house. I'm currently trying to learn about the feasts of Yahweh, and will be observing them as they roll thru the year. Yes, I use Yahweh and Yeshua, instead of God and Jesus. It's a respect thing for me, I have no business re-naming my creator and saviour. Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ), was born in Bethlehem, raised by Jewish parents, and observed Jewish customs and Yahweh's commandments. The definition of "jew", is "one who praises Yahweh", and we, as believers, are grafted back into the original tree (Christ). I'm not claiming to be a "jew", a "gentile", a "christian" or anything eles other than a FOLLOWER of my Lord and Saviour, Yeshua Messiah. The things I do, I do solely based on the studies I've done, that point out how HE lived and walked. I'll never be perfect and without blemish, but I WANT TO BE. My Father in heaven deserves that. I loved bacon, and being a diesel mechanic, I used to make a ton of side money working saturdays. Not anymore. I CHOOSE the life I lead now, trying to be an imitator of Christ. Thats the beauty of free will, its all about choices. The definition of "holy" in the scripture, is "set apart". I dont mind folks saying I'm "strange", it just means I'm different, and hopefully, "set apart". Just a thought, Ya'll do your own research, about the sabbath, see if scripture changed it, or if the roman church changed it. Its the 4th commandment, yet nobody pays attention to it, and the same folk will swear that murder or adultery is a sin. Pork is listed as an abomination, in THE SAME BOOK that lists homosexuality as an abomonation. Folks will eat a BLT, while preaching about homosexuality being a sin. For me personally, I am tyring to get away from "cafeteria christianity" (I'll take some of this, alot of that, but dont give me any of the other), and I'm trying to be obedient, no more, no less. I dont preach to, condemn, or even fuss at folks who work saturday, or eat pork. I even allowed my 3 daughters to CHOOSE what they eat. (They are all eating clean now). Yet, nobody extends the same tolerance to me, and some fellow believers I share, worship, and fellowship with. One man I study with, was asked not to come back to a particular church that he'd attended for a long time, after going to the preacher about sabbath being the 7th day, and not eating pork. Thats sad. Anyway, I sincerely hope nobody is offended, or mad at me. Like I said, I just wanted to explain my way of thinking. There is the possibility that I'm wrong on all these things, but I refuse to believe the Lord will be angry at me for trying to be obedient as He leads my family to be. I didnt want to go quoting any scripture, but I cant help myself, Joshua 24:14-15 "Now therefore fear Yahweh, and serve him in sincerity and in truth. Put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the river, in Egypt; and serve Yahweh. (15) If it seems evil to you to serve Yahweh, choose today whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the river, or the gods of the amorites, in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh. 
Everything I've said, is from love for the Father, and love for my brothers. Dont take my word for anything, study, the whole book, and study history, and pray . He will lead His children where they need to be.


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## Artfuldodger

Boot, do you rest on the Sabbath and go to Church on Sunday? What constitutes resting and keeping the day Holy? I'm just curious so I hope I'm not bugging you.
What if someone has a job where they are required to work on the Sabbath?
We did have a discussion on here where we talked about some of the New Testament books should probably be in the Old Testament.


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## Boot

Actually, the church that my wife and I are members of, meets on Tuesday eveings. Ashamedly, I haven't been going for a little while now, due to differences of opinion on scripture. We are currently looking for a church to fellowship and worship with, where folks dont look at us like we have 3 eyeballs.  Lol. Day of the week is not important to me for fellowship, any day is fine. I just keep Saturday set apart, and do my studying, then. Church on Saturday or Sunday would be fine, long as I didnt get flamed for believing the 7th day of the week is sabbath. When you start to believe "strange things", its funny how little you get invited.


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## hobbs27

Boot, Im glad you're saved and on a journey, but beware of those that would like to sidetrack your journey...Jesus fulfilled the Law, we(All People) are under the same New Testament.

Moses saw Gods back...Jesus didn't lie, but he was talking about seeing the face of God.
18And he said, I beseech you, show me your glory.

19And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.

20And he said, You can not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

21And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and you shall stand upon a rock:

22And it shall come to pass, while my glory passes by, that I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and will cover you with my hand while I pass by:

23And I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back: but my face shall not be seen.


Peter told to eat unclean meat...as the New Testament came down..

9On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.


Early Christians met on the first day...The day of the Lord to worship and collect tithes.

6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.

7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.


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## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> Ironic isn't it how we all read the same scripture and yet we can come out of it with totally different meanings.I wonder sometimes just how much of the scripture people are reading when they start believing in strange things, like not eating pork, or saturday worship for Christians.It seems most believers like that pick a couple of verses and repeat them over and over without putting them into context...The good thing is as long as they continue to study a true meaning will eventually soak in.



Of far greater concern is those who read a few paragraphs with interesting subtitles, or the review on the dust cover, then  read the mistaken understanding gained by way of such shortcuts into the whole of the book.


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## Boot

Hobbs, early christians met on the first day, to collect tithes and worship, so they could honor the sabbath and keep it holy. The sabbath was "banned" so to speak by the roman church. Check their encyclopedia. Peter WALKED with Christ, and yet still ate "clean" at the time of his dream.  In my opinion, when peter was instructed not to call things unclean which had been made clean, it was the gentile believers being referenced, since jews weren't allowed to associate with them. If pork had been deemed clean by the Messiah, I'd think He would've mentioned it to the apostles at dinner one evening. Yeshua did fulfill the law, because we cant. He is the Word made flesh. He didn't abolish it, and I dont feel that I'm excused from it. He said "not one jot or tittle will change until heaven and earth pass away". In NO WAY AM I ASKING ANYONE TO CHANGE THEMSELVES. What I dont understand, is why so many people insist on "correcting" me, and saying I need to study further. DUH! We all do! But in my heart, I dont feel the Almighty telling me that doing things like keeping the sabbath, and refraining from unclean foods is silly, unwise, wrong, or offensive to him. I never said it was for anyone else. Just that it was my path, and the more I do things His way, the closer He draws me near. I appreciate other opinions, but it seems folks just want to show me where I went wrong, instead of share their journey. Iron sharpens Iron, and I enjoy a healthy conversation, but I also understand why they say "don't discuss religion or politics ". I will not judge another mans faith or journey. I choose to be as obedient as I know how. Nobody has to justify to me why they eat whatever they eat, or worship on whatever day they worship. I only wish to not have to justify trying to be obedient. What difference does it make to other folks if I dont eat bacon, and spend Saturday resting, studying, and enjoying fellowship with my family? I dont know, but everywhere I turn, folks are trying to change my mind. My wife and I sat down at lunch today with a lifelong friend and his wife.  They had bacon. It didnt bother me, they know I dont eat it, and it doesn't bother them that we dont. He's one of a very few, who dont make fun, give me grief, or try to correct my obvious misguided faith. For the life of me, I cant figure out why my diet, and Saturday activities are offensive and strange enough to warrant so much correction from so many people.


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## hobbs27

Boot said:


> For the life of me, I cant figure out why my diet, and Saturday activities are offensive and strange enough to warrant so much correction from so many people.


I don't think it is offensive as it throws up a red flag to people that would care for you, and just hate to see you go down a path that could someday hurt your faith altogether.I also have some beliefs that some consider strange and I'll show that in the next quote I took from you, but all in all I say carry on, love the brethren and stay strong in your faith in Christ no matter what you find out in your journey of denominations.



Boot said:


> Yeshua did fulfill the law, because we cant. He is the Word made flesh. He didn't abolish it, and I dont feel that I'm excused from it. He said "not one jot or tittle will change until heaven and earth pass away".



Here's my strange belief to some...The heaven and earth did pass away, the heaven and earth was referred to in the OT as this the heaven= government of Israel....earth = Israel and the people....I believe God sent in the Roman soldiers in 70 ad to destroy completely Jerusalem and the temple..which they did.In doing so the old heaven and earth passed away and a new heaven and earth was sent down, spoken of in Revelations its a new covenant of grace we are under and Christ is the King of this new kingdom. God Bless!


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## Artfuldodger

I understand what Boot is saying.It's his journey not mine or yours. What he's doing and how he is living might be "overkill" but why does it matter to anyone else? He's not trying to persuade me or you to living as he does. He is saying study the scriptures for yourself and develop your own beliefs.
I have some "strange" beliefs myself and have been told if they are "strange" then you are wrong. I don't believe I am and I don't really care if you follow my "strange" beliefs. As Boot said, please don't take my word for it, read the scriptures for yourself. It's hard to put indoctrination aside and read with an open heart.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I understand what Boot is saying.It's his journey not mine or yours. What he's doing and how he is living might be "overkill" but why does it matter to anyone else? He's not trying to persuade me or you to living as he does. He is saying study the scriptures for yourself and develop your own beliefs.
> I have some "strange" beliefs myself and have been told if they are "strange" then you are wrong. I don't believe I am and I don't really care if you follow my "strange" beliefs. As Boot said, please don't take my word for it, read the scriptures for yourself. It's hard to put indoctrination aside and read with an open heart.



Yes I'm sure we all have some belief that makes us seem strange to others, but we should expect some correction when our beliefs take us off the reservation.


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## Boot

Artful, what seems like overkill, is to me, not enough. Strangely, the law itself draws me closer to the Lord. The more I realize how short I have fallen of the mark, the more I cherish the gift of salvation and the giver of salvation. Your statement about indoctrination is spot on. It wasn't until I put away what I'd been indoctrinated with, and studied with an open, servants heart, that I gained understanding. 
Hobbs, if I were doing something outside of scripture, or committing sin in the name of Yahweh, I'd expect some correction. Nothing I do is against scripture that I know of, some things may or may not be required, but as stated before, I base my actions on how my Savior walked while He was on earth. Do you believe Christ broke any of the ot laws? When He spoke of the greatest commandments, He even said "the whole law and prophets depend on these two commandments ". Trying to establish things in my life, like He lived His, in todays day and age is strange, but it does draw me near the Father, and my family nearer each other. I just didnt see the downside to going off the reservation, to get to a narrow gate.


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## Boot

The 2 greatest commandments , love the Lord, and love your neighbor. All the other laws, are the instruction manual on HOW to do these. How we worship, the fruits we bear, and how to help  the fellow men we walk with are all there. You just have to read the bible as one timeless scripture. The Lord is timeless, and doesn't change. In my humble opinion, His Word doesn't either. John 1:1


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## hobbs27

Boot said:


> Hobbs, if I were doing something outside of scripture, or committing sin in the name of Yahweh, I'd expect some correction. Nothing I do is against scripture that I know of, some things may or may not be required, but as stated before, I base my actions on how my Savior walked while He was on earth. Do you believe Christ broke any of the ot laws?


 You know...that's an interesting question.My first thought would be of course Jesus didn't break any laws.But He did heal on the Sabbath, He did travel and had His disciples pick corn to eat on the Sabbath.He did ultimately commit blasphemy by suggesting that He was indeed God in the flesh.But he did not sin! The law was imperfect for Jesus, and it is imperfect for those of us that have received Jesus as our savior.





> When He spoke of the greatest commandments, He even said "the whole law and prophets depend on these two commandments ". Trying to establish things in my life, like He lived His, in todays day and age is strange, but it does draw me near the Father, and my family nearer each other. I just didnt see the downside to going off the reservation, to get to a narrow gate.



My last response to you was carry on, but I caution to beware.
1 Timothy ch. 4 warns us to not abstain from certain meats, for all is good that is received in thanksgiving.I thank Him dearly for Boston Butts, and pulled pork BBQ!


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## Artfuldodger

Boot said:


> The 2 greatest commandments , love the Lord, and love your neighbor. All the other laws, are the instruction manual on HOW to do these. How we worship, the fruits we bear, and how to help  the fellow men we walk with are all there. You just have to read the bible as one timeless scripture. The Lord is timeless, and doesn't change. In my humble opinion, His Word doesn't either. John 1:1



If we perform those two commandments, we are performing all the others. 
I believe the moral ones are more important than ceremonial commandments.
I'm still trying to work it all out.
This is from John and must mean something.
 3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.


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## Boot

Christ could never have broken a scriptural law, I think you have confused scripture with the rabbinical laws put forth by the pharisees. They were man made, and not given by the Father. Would you be so quick to encourage me to enjoy bacon and bbq if a doctor had told me to stop eating pork because my cholesterol was high? Probably not. Odd how anyone could accept my diet, if it were recommended by a man, yet fervently try to correct me when I say I believe it was commanded by the Father. Just to draw an end, lets just say my choice of foods was recommended by the Healer, and the Great Physician. I don't understand every command, but my faith is too the level where I dont have to. I'll sit at the table with anyone as they eat bbq, and not be bothered, but they are generally offended when I choose something else. That's sort of my entire point. The minute I confess that my actions are in obedience, folks get bent, but at the same dinner table, if I refused pork and claimed high cholesterol, and a dr's recommended diet, folks would ask me how I'm doing, how I feel, or show concern / sympathy etc. I'm just getting a head start on avoiding later heart disease, or cholesterol issues, my diet was recommended by a great dr. He healed people without prescription drugs, and sees clean into their hearts without an x-ray! He is pretty awesome! In fact, He even holds the design/creation patent on the body that carries my soul thru this life. I figure I'll listen to Him.


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## Artfuldodger

Boot said:


> Our "works", are obedience, and fear (read reverence) for the Almighty. Not earning our way to heaven, earning salvation, or earning anything.
> 
> Salvation is walking thru the door, sanctification is the journey from the folks we were, to the children of Yahweh that He wants and calls us to be.



What happens to a Christian who after walking thru the door of salvation, doesn't do much in their journey of sanctification?


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## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> What happens to a Christian who after walking thru the door of salvation, doesn't do much in their journey of sanctification?



I imagine that is like the church of Laodicea.


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## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> I imagine that is like the church of Laodicea.



They were considered lukewarm Christians. What was their fate, less rewards in Heaven compared to Hot Christians?


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## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> They were considered lukewarm Christians. What was their fate, less rewards in Heaven compared to Hot Christians?



Revelation 3:16 tells us their fate.  They were spit out....they weren't true Christians.

Luke warm water...it is good for nothing.  Make it either hot...or make it cold.  But lukewarm...good for nothing.


So it is for "christians" who do not grow in sanctification.  Are you going to have times of no growth?  Sure....but over time, if there's no growth, you have to seriously start to ask the question "why?"


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## Boot

This is gonna get deep. Quick. Lukewarm is a MIXTURE of hot and cold. In my opinion, the lesson to learn is about avoiding mixture. I'm at work now, posting from my phone, but this evening, when I get home to the computer, I will try and share more of my journey. This is going to be a touchy subject, and will get me flamed. But I believe it to be the truth. Salvation from the lake of fire is a gift from the Father, we cannot earn it. Yahweh gets honor and glory from our obedience. Satans goal is to prevent that. If we are decieved into sinning, but believe we are doing right, the Father gets no glory. All the letters to the churches, including laodicia, began with saying "I know/see your works", not I know your beliefs. Where does the Father receive glory if ones life and lifestyle doesn't change? Lip service at church? Or obedience, which is faith in motion? Repent means to turn away from our sin. Salvation should lead to the turning away from the worlds way of doing things, and turning to the Fathers instructions. More to follow this evening .......


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## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> Revelation 3:16 tells us their fate.  They were spit out....they weren't true Christians.
> 
> Luke warm water...it is good for nothing.  Make it either hot...or make it cold.  But lukewarm...good for nothing.
> 
> 
> So it is for "christians" who do not grow in sanctification.  Are you going to have times of no growth?  Sure....but over time, if there's no growth, you have to seriously start to ask the question "why?"



That's understandable, were they ever Christians?


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## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> That's understandable, were they ever Chritians?



imo...no...because I believe we can not lose our salvation.

but that's another thread


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## Artfuldodger

John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
John 8:15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one

Looking foward to ideas on the message to the Laodicean Church and what the Mixture is all about. I don't know if it was about human performance or not.


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## Boot

rjcruiser said:


> imo...no...because I believe we can not lose our salvation.
> 
> but that's another thread



Amen. If one is truly saved, the Lord will not take it away.


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## Artfuldodger

There is this view that the Church at Laodicea thought of itself as rich and in need of nothing from Christ. Like the city’s water supply, the church is useless in its service to the Lord, and Christ is about to spit it from his mouth.
The church does not show forth the power of Christ and the Holy Spirit. The metaphor of the water supply says not so much that the church is half-hearted, but that its works are barren of God’s power.
Christ makes them a promise in Revelation 3:20-21 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
21)To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.
http://www.gci.org/bible/rev/laodicea

At least this version doesn't condemn the Church at Laodicea of never being Christians and is more grace oriented. Works for the wrong reason perhaps.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.


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## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> There is this view that the Church at Laodicea thought of itself as rich and in need of nothing from Christ. Like the city’s water supply, the church is useless in its service to the Lord, and Christ is about to spit it from his mouth.
> The church does not show forth the power of Christ and the Holy Spirit. The metaphor of the water supply says not so much that the church is half-hearted, but that its works are barren of God’s power.
> Christ makes them a promise in Revelation 3:20-21 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
> 21)To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.
> http://www.gci.org/bible/rev/laodicea
> 
> At least this version doesn't condemn the Church at Laodicea of never being Christians and is more grace oriented. Works for the wrong reason perhaps.
> 
> John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.



At a minimum...the church was in sin...for the Lord is telling them to repent.

But I read it as saying that they are not going to join Christ in His kingdom....based on the verses following (Rev 3:21-22).


Why are you so against Christ condemning the church of Laodicea?  I think that there are many churches like this today.


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## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> At a minimum...the church was in sin...for the Lord is telling them to repent.
> 
> But I read it as saying that they are not going to join Christ in His kingdom....based on the verses following (Rev 3:21-22).
> 
> 
> Why are you so against Christ condemning the church of Laodicea?  I think that there are many churches like this today.



I don't mind Christ doing as he pleases, I'm just trying to "rightly divide the truth."


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## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't mind Christ doing as he pleases, I'm just trying to "rightly divide the truth."





I gotcha...sorry if it came across the wrong way.

Just seems as though sometimes you pick out views that are out of the norm to fit a preferred outcome.

Not saying that that is wrong...just curious as I'd think most would agree that the Loadiceans were not truly saved...but merely at church for the social aspect.


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## Boot

If a man tells his wife he loves her every sunday morning, but doesn't give of himself to her during the days between, she will eventually get to the point that she isnt interested in hearing the sunday morning repeat. It's really not a difficult concept. t
The fact that we as believers have questions and seek answers is a good thing. I think its the Holy Spirit nudging us to grow. If there is no change in a mans life after salvation, perhaps there is no Christ in the man ? What has changed in my life? Alot, some things have been mentioned in earlier posts, but the point is, I gave up my will, and am trying to do what's in scripture, solely to honor my Creator, and show Him I am grateful for the gift of salvation. Matt 25 is a good chapter concerning this idea. The servant that is tossed out in verse 30, did nothing with what was given to him, he just hid it, and was cast into outer darkness when the master returned. Was he a true servant of the master in his heart ? Or a servant in label only? What will you do with your gift of salvation? Keep it put away as fire insurance against eternity in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - Or will you allow Yahwehs word, (and according to scripture, Christ is the Word made flesh), permeate your heart, and change you into being a servant of the Lord? I have asked alot of folks that try to change my mind about pork, saturday sabbath, christmas, easter, etc etc, if they could show me in scripture where these things are commanded to be done. None have been able to offer anything more than "My preacher says........" or "I believe........". I used to wonder why we are commanded to do certain things, and abstain from others, but when I started studying the "law", I no longer worried or wondered. The "law", is the Torah, which means "teaching". Law is the word used to translate it by the greeks. When i saw how far short of the mark I'd fallen, I realized I was the gum, on the bottom of a flip-flop shoe, worn by a walking pile of trash, yet my Father loved me so much, He gave up His only Son, that willfully surrendered His life, not owing a death, so that I may have eternal life with the Father. That fact, makes me ashamed of myself for the life I had, and eternally thankful, for the life I have. What does the Lord need from me? I cant create like Him, I cant forgive like Him, I cant love like Him, yet He poured out His precious own perfect blood for me, so that I didn't have to face the debt for my sin. Tears well up in my eyes when I try to fathom the love He has for us, and the pain of my sins being paid for by the Son, as the Father had to look away. The law, torah, teaching, word, scripture, whatever you choose to call it has shown me just how much I've been forgivin of. I didnt understand most of scripture myself until I took a leap of faith. For me, it started with pork/unclean food. I didnt get why it was an abomination, and frankly, I really loved bacon, but I decided to do something HIS way, even though at the start , thought it was "strange". The result of that simple act of obedience, (FOR ME) has been no less than amazing. I understand scripture much better now, I have since changed other things in my life, for no reason other than doing what I believe the Almighty asks of me. I am closer to Him than ever before, I feel the warmth of His presence in my life now, I am learning more and more every day. He has placed people in my life that teach me, and people that learn from me. That is what its all about. As I have said several times before, I'm no scholar, no preacher, no teacher, always cross examine everything you see on the web. Study to show thyself appoved. The Creator of heaven and earth, needs nothing from me, so by default, my "works" are worthless to barter salvation with. What my Creator, Lord, Master and Savior wants from me, is an obedient, servants heart. The law showed me my sin, and I have been forgiven much. I will serve Yahweh, the best I can, for no reason other than I cant help but love the One who loved me more before I even knew who He was. Please dont think I'm claiming to have it all figured out, or to have all the answers. I sometimes just enjoy sharing my journey, and the blessings I've been given. If anyone is questioning their faith, know that I did as well, just before I came to the decision to give up bacon. Lol. It was sort of a challenge from a fellow follower of Christ. I took a step not understanding why, but just because I felt the Holy Spirit convicting me. I've never looked back. I'm not asking/telling anyone to follow my particular path, as you'll probably trip over me when I fall down. Lol. Your mileage will vary, but I do encourage folks to find SOMETHING that they know is scriptural, and be obedient in it. It opened my heart to the Almighty, and I pray it will affect others the same way.


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## Boot

My apologies, I wasn't thinking when I referenced the lake of fire in its 4 letter name. Hence the potty mouth censor.


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## Boot

One more thought, if we can separate the meaning of works vs obedience, this would all be alot easier. The Almighty knows our hearts, I think maybe our obedience is not there to show Him how much we love Him, but it's to show US how much we love Him, or the lack thereof.


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## hobbs27

Boot said:


> I have asked alot of folks that try to change my mind about pork, saturday sabbath, christmas, easter, etc etc, if they could show me in scripture where these things are commanded to be done.  .



Peter told to eat unclean meat...as the New Testament came down..

9On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

1Timothy 4
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.





Colossians 2:16-17



16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


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## Boot

Hobbs, read all those IN context. Peter was told not to call gentile believers unclean.
Pork was unclean way before the "law" was given, and never meant to be food.
If you can show me where the Messiah ate unclean food, or failed to honor the sabbath, then I will accept you judging me doing what little I can to be obedient and honor Him. Otherwise, for petes sake, get off my case! I have not once told or directed anyone to be like me. I just wanted to share my walk, and the blessings I'm given. Maybe, just maybe the last section was talking to me, and I'm not to let you judge me on abstaining from pork, or observing sabbath, the way I believe Christ did?


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## hobbs27

Boot said:


> Hobbs, read all those IN context. Peter was told not to call gentile believers unclean.
> Pork was unclean way before the "law" was given, and never meant to be food.
> If you can show me where the Messiah ate unclean food, or failed to honor the sabbath, then I will accept you judging me doing what little I can to be obedient and honor Him. Otherwise, for petes sake, get off my case! I have not once told or directed anyone to be like me. I just wanted to share my walk, and the blessings I'm given. Maybe, just maybe the last section was talking to me, and I'm not to let you judge me on abstaining from pork, or observing sabbath, the way I believe Christ did?



So you say no one can show you in scripture *this* or *that* but when they do they are out of context, judging, or on your case? Interesting way of proving your ideology.

Since the scripture I provided is so direct...why don't we discuss it in context and see where it leaves us?Are you open minded to exploring scripture?


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## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> I gotcha...sorry if it came across the wrong way.
> 
> Just seems as though sometimes you pick out views that are out of the norm to fit a preferred outcome.
> 
> Not saying that that is wrong...just curious as I'd think most would agree that the Loadiceans were not truly saved...but merely at church for the social aspect.



Didn't you say Christ was calling for them to repent? How can they repent if they were never saved? 
There are a lot of metaphors in that message. 
Hot water is good, cold water is good. Lukewarm water is bad. Mixing the two makes bad water. I don't think i'm the only one in whole world who looks at it the way you do. I will agree that there are more people who believe it as you do.
Does God wish it better for them to be evil? Is that what "cold" means?

Although and just to show you reference  to Christians who lost their way. It would have been better for them to have been "cold" in the following:
2 Peter 2:20-22.

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

 I would assume you don't believe they were ever Christians either but God did say it would be better for them to have been "cold."
I've looked at the hot, cold, and lukewarm both ways. Most people see it your way. Most people don't believe the people in 2 Peter 2:20 were Christian either.
Even though they had escaped the pollutions of the world and had known the way of righteousness.


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## hobbs27

Boot said:


> If you can show me where the Messiah ate unclean food,



What about where he declared all unclean food good?

Mark 7:19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)


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## Boot

Hobbs, I'm sorry for being less than brotherly earlier. I just get so worn out on folks telling me I'm wrong, off the resevation, misguided, and sometimes insinuating that my faith is false. I've repeatedly said I don't want or expect anyone to follow my path or anything I say. I just don't understand why it's so important for some to discourage me from what I read as far as how the Messiah lived. I'm all ears, where did Christ fail to observe the sabbath as directed by scripture? Where did the Messiah eat unclean food? When did he celebrate easter and forget about Passover? I am more interested in direct instances in the Messiah's life, than paul, peter, james or john. They were undoubtedly great men, but they didn't die on the cross for me.


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## Boot

Start at Mark 7:1, I see the reference concerning unwashed hands, which was a tradition of the pharisees, not scripture.


----------



## Boot

Artful, sorry about getting off track in your thread. My long winded point, was to seek the Lord, be obedient, and He will bring you the truth. "Works" is often confused with obedience, and I got too wound up in trying to explain it. I pray you are blessed, and the Lord shines his countenance upon you as you journey from who you were, to who He calls you to be.


----------



## hobbs27

Boot said:


> Start at Mark 7:1, I see the reference concerning unwashed hands, which was a tradition of the pharisees, not scripture.



I will try to show where the discussion stops about the tradition of cleaning hands and begins on all foods are declared clean...blue=hands.....red= food..


Followers of Tradition
1The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had come from Jerusalem, 2and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed. 3(For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders; 4and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.) 5The Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?”

6And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
            ‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
            BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.

      7‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
            TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’


8“Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”

      9He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10“For Moses said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH’; 11but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”


The Heart of Man

14After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, “Listen to Me, all of you, and understand: 15there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man. 16[“If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”]

      17When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable. 18And He said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.) 20And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23“All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”


Brother boot...please show where I am taking this out of context...Thankyou.


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## Artfuldodger

Boot said:


> Artful, sorry about getting off track in your thread. My long winded point, was to seek the Lord, be obedient, and He will bring you the truth. "Works" is often confused with obedience, and I got too wound up in trying to explain it. I pray you are blessed, and the Lord shines his countenance upon you as you journey from who you were, to who He calls you to be.



I don't mind as it's all related to the topic. I can see where you can get upset about people hounding you for not eating pork. You did say it's your path and  we'll have to search our hearts & scripture for our paths. 
Hobbs27 is also using scriptures to show that all food is now clean. I don't think he was preaching just to you but to show a different view. You sounded a little abrupt but reconciled with an apology. 
Personally it appears you are bringing up your beliefs on Sabbath keeping and not eating pork just a little too much. I can understand why but we get the point. 
But then again if someone else brings it up, it is your duty to respond. 
Maybe we've chewed the fat(pork) enough and you can give your ideas on lukewarm and mixing in Laodicea.
This is all very spiritual and enlightening to me.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Or we can discuss clean and dirty hands, it's all part of learning and our pathways. this is how we learn by sharing the scriptures.


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## Artfuldodger

Isn't the whole story of the Pharisees is that they were hypocrites? They followed all the laws but didn't have anything in their hearts. 
Following the Law wasn't their sin. BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. They were doing it for the wrong reasons.

There is nothing from outside a man entering into him which can defile him;   But can I go get drunk, smoke reefer, get fat from fatty foods, put bad rap music in my ears, XXX rated porno in my eyes? (I guess the last tow would go to my heart but it all could if it consumed me to the point of replacing what's in my heart.)

We are talking about Christians correct? I want to make sure of that. 
Mark 7:18-19 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them?
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all kinds of food.
(Isn't purging all foods a different interpretation from purifying all meat? Excrement isn't pure.)

Maybe we are overthinking it and it's about making sure your heart is right before you start to practice the New Covenant commandments. Then you can keep these commandments for the right reason. It could be about the reason for keeping commandments. It could be about which commandment to shed. Ceremonial commandments like washing hands, eating pork, keeping the Sabbath, are they in the New Covenant? 
 21“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23“All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”
The New covenant laws appear to be more about morals.


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## gemcgrew

Boot said:


> I am more interested in direct instances in the Messiah's life, than paul, peter, james or john. They were undoubtedly great men, but they didn't die on the cross for me.


Jesus spoke all the words of the Bible.
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Timothy 3:16)


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## Artfuldodger

Well since this thread ties in to commandment keeping I've been brushing up on covenants and commandments and how they apply to me. I found a site called the Ten Commandments that is very informative. It might teach us even if we don't agree with all being said. I understand we won't all agree with the site info, i'm just reading it with an open heart. It might still teach us something even if we don't agree with all of it.


http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/old_and_new_covenants.html


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> I gotcha...sorry if it came across the wrong way.
> 
> Just seems as though sometimes you pick out views that are out of the norm to fit a preferred outcome.
> 
> Not saying that that is wrong...just curious as I'd think most would agree that the Loadiceans were not truly saved...but merely at church for the social aspect.



Just showing another view from yours and most Christians on Loadicea:

This shows  a completely different interpretation of Revelations 3:14-22 

http://escapetoreality.org/2010/07/15/the-gospel-comes-to-laodicea/


----------



## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> Now before anyone writes to me calling for “balance,” let me remind you that the moment you balance grace with human works or human responsibility, it stops being grace. You cannot balance unmerited favor with merited favor. How do you receive the grace of God in vain? By trying to merit it, by trying to earn what was freely given.


 
Better said than I.


----------



## Artfuldodger

StriperAddict said:


> Better said than I.



One verse I was reading concerned Satan trying to complicate my Salvation. I thought it might be appropiate here. 
 2 Corinthians 11:3-4
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his cunning, so your minds should be corrupted from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ.4)For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.


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## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> Didn't you say Christ was calling for them to repent? How can they repent if they were never saved?
> Does God wish it better for them to be evil? Is that what "cold" means?.



I think that in this passage, calling to repentance can be viewed as calling to salvation.

I don't think cold means evil....I think God wants us to be useful.  Cold=useful, Hot=useful.  Luke warm= not useful



Artfuldodger said:


> Just showing another view from yours and most Christians on Loadicea:
> 
> This shows  a completely different interpretation of Revelations 3:14-22
> 
> http://escapetoreality.org/2010/07/15/the-gospel-comes-to-laodicea/



Love that blog entry.  I read it and totally agree.  We are saved by grace.  God chose us...it was free and un-merited.

Now...the flipside is that our fruit will show our love for Christ.  This fruit is not to earn the love of Christ....but rather done out of gratitude and love for our Savior.

I think you nailed it earlier....the quote that Striper has posted above.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> I think that in this passage, calling to repentance can be viewed as calling to salvation.
> 
> I don't think cold means evil....I think God wants us to be useful.  Cold=useful, Hot=useful.  Luke warm= not useful
> 
> 
> 
> Love that blog entry.  I read it and totally agree.  We are saved by grace.  God chose us...it was free and un-merited.
> 
> Now...the flipside is that our fruit will show our love for Christ.  This fruit is not to earn the love of Christ....but rather done out of gratitude and love for our Savior.
> 
> I think you nailed it earlier....the quote that Striper has posted above.



Maybe it's finally sinking in. Amen!


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## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe it's finally sinking in. Amen!


----------



## Artfuldodger

My only confusion is now that we all agree "we are saved by Grace and it was all from God and our works has no play in our Salvation."
Someone will come along and say "well he was never saved or he had a false conversion. He was never of the Elect. You can't have it both ways. 
Everyone who professes Jesus as their Savior believe they are saved. Have you ever known anyone who believes in "Election" to believe he isn't "Elected?" 
Haven't we all pretty much said we don't need physical proof of salvation because we have Biblical proof from God. John 3:16 and John 10:29 tells us that, correct?
John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.


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## Artfuldodger

Romans 11:16 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

FOR by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8.

2 Timothy 1:9 9 It is God who saved us and chose us to live a holy life. He did this not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan long before the world began--to show his love and kindness to us through Christ Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger

While we are on the topic of Grace. We've only talked about Grace as it pertains to our only way to Salvation.
Now I need God's Grace to help me live the way he wants me to. What are some assuring verses that God will grant me Grace to do this?


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> My only confusion is now that we all agree "we are saved by Grace and it was all from God and our works has no play in our Salvation."
> Someone will come along and say "well he was never saved or he had a false conversion. He was never of the Elect. You can't have it both ways.
> Everyone who professes Jesus as their Savior believe they are saved. Have you ever known anyone who believes in "Election" to believe he isn't "Elected?"
> Haven't we all pretty much said we don't need physical proof of salvation because we have Biblical proof from God. John 3:16 and John 10:29 tells us that, correct?
> John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.



Not everyone who calls "Lord Lord" is saved.  We must have discernment.  For to call the Lord our Savior and to believe it 100% are two different things.

That is where we come to discernment and like I John tells us, we need to examine ourselves.  

That being said, that's why we can believe that "if saved, always saved."



Artfuldodger said:


> While we are on the topic of Grace. We've only talked about Grace as it pertains to our only way to Salvation.
> Now I need God's Grace to help me live the way he wants me to. What are some assuring verses that God will grant me Grace to do this?



Gal 2:20.  I've been crucified with Christ...and it's no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.  And the life I live, I live by faith in the one who loved me and delivered himself up for me.

Also, plenty of scripture that tells us to ask for wisdom and God will give it to us.  James tells us that.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> Not everyone who calls "Lord Lord" is saved.  We must have discernment.  For to call the Lord our Savior and to believe it 100% are two different things.
> 
> That is where we come to discernment and like I John tells us, we need to examine ourselves.
> 
> That being said, that's why we can believe that "if saved, always saved."
> 
> 
> 
> Gal 2:20.  I've been crucified with Christ...and it's no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.  And the life I live, I live by faith in the one who loved me and delivered himself up for me.
> 
> Also, plenty of scripture that tells us to ask for wisdom and God will give it to us.  James tells us that.



I understand we must have discernment, sanctfication, fruit, etc. But none of that takes away our Salvation that is of Grace alone.

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole."

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.


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## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> I understand we must have discernment, sanctfication, fruit, etc. But none of that takes away our Salvation that is of Grace alone.



Absolutely.

Now...this is not to stomp on the ant bed...and I'm not wanting to debate this here either...just pointing out....

There in lies the rub between the Reformers and the Catholics.


So...can you believe in an alternative salvation method...and be saved?


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## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Now...this is not to stomp on the ant bed...and I'm not wanting to debate this here either...just pointing out....
> 
> There in lies the rub between the Reformers and the Catholics.
> 
> 
> So...can you believe in an alternative salvation method...and be saved?



Yes you can as long as you believe Jesus died for your sins. Anything you do extra isn't an alternative salvation. You can't add or take away from your slavation. Anything extra a believer does or believes in isn't taking away from their Salvation. You can do all the singing, praying, helping, sanctifiying, Bible reading, commandment keeping, and even things of the opposite nature like gambling, adultry, lying, & cheating if you repent and don't do it all the time. Once saved always saved.
If you are saved by the grace of God, you don't have to interpret every verse the same as every other Christian. 

I don't know yet what all that extra doing and not doing will account for but it's not Salvation.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> Yes you can as long as you believe Jesus died for your sins. Anything you do extra isn't an alternative salvation. You can't add or take away from your slavation. Anything extra a believer does or believes in isn't taking away from their Salvation. You can do all the singing, praying, helping, sanctifiying, Bible reading, commandment keeping, and even things of the opposite nature like gambling, adultry, lying, & cheating if you repent and don't do it all the time. Once saved always saved.
> If you are saved by the grace of God, you don't have to interpret every verse the same as every other Christian.
> 
> I don't know yet what all that extra doing and not doing will account for but it's not Salvation.



I guess my question would be...what if you believe your works assist in your salvation?

Doesn't that take away from the work that Christ did/does for us?  Is that true saving faith then?

Jesus died for my sins....but, I have to keep doing _____ in order to be truly saved.  Or, Jesus died for my sins and I did ______ to be saved.

Is that the gospel of grace?


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## hobbs27

rjcruiser said:


> Or, Jesus died for my sins and I did ______ to be saved.
> 
> Is that the gospel of grace?



Sorry to but-in ...I would fill in the blank with surrender.Then answer the question with yes.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Sorry to but-in ...I would fill in the blank with surrender.Then answer the question with yes.



Not butting in, and what did you do to surrender?


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> I guess my question would be...what if you believe your works assist in your salvation?
> 
> Doesn't that take away from the work that Christ did/does for us?  Is that true saving faith then?
> 
> Jesus died for my sins....but, I have to keep doing _____ in order to be truly saved.  Or, Jesus died for my sins and I did ______ to be saved.
> 
> Is that the gospel of grace?



They've aready met the requirement by God for salvation,  in their belief in Jesus as savior. If they add man's requirement, they aren't taking away from God's.
If a Baptist woman is saved by Grace and marries a Catholic and converts, why would she lose her Salvation?
Doesn't OSAS still apply? Please don't tell me she was never saved. She will just change her beliefs on  the extras.
The extras aren't going to remove her Salvation as she can't lose that. The extras are man's requirements. She would just be going above and beyond. It would be like keeping the Sabbath. Why would Sabbath keeping ruin your salvation? 
If a Methodist suddenly started keeping the sabbath 10 years after conversion, would that do anything to his salvation?


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Now...this is not to stomp on the ant bed...and I'm not wanting to debate this here either...just pointing out....
> 
> There in lies the rub between the Reformers and the Catholics.
> 
> 
> So...can you believe in an alternative salvation method...and be saved?



I just went back and read this verse:
2 Corinthians 11:3-4
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his cunning, so your minds should be corrupted from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ.4)For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 


So I can see kinda what you are leading up too. If they are adding works to the salvation requirement, they are taking away from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ. They are preaching another Jesus. An I'm the one who posted this verse on here. I had an accidental relapse into my previous "works required salvation."
Well since I believed in works as being a part of my Salvation at conversion, am I still saved after seeing the err of my ways?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Not butting in, and what did you do to surrender?



I accepted that Christ was calling and I could answer or face the consequences of what I was deserving of.He made a way, and praise God he made an offer.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> If they add man's requirement, they aren't taking away from God's.



Impossible to do.  Adding man's anything takes away from the "free" part of the gift.



Artfuldodger said:


> I just went back and read this verse:
> 2 Corinthians 11:3-4
> But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his cunning, so your minds should be corrupted from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ.4)For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
> 
> 
> So I can see kinda what you are leading up too. If they are adding works to the salvation requirement, they are taking away from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ. They are preaching another Jesus. An I'm the one who posted this verse on here. I had an accidental relapse into my previous "works required salvation."
> Well since I believed in works as being a part of my Salvation at conversion, am I still saved after seeing the err of my ways?



Not only the simplicity...but the awesomeness and completeness of the grace and mercy which God bestowed upon us.


As far as your last question...I don't like to determine date of salvation...what matters is what do you believe right now?  Whether or not you were saved 10 years ago or saved today...all that matters is you are saved today.


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## gordon 2

I am hoping you are all tired of sin. But not so tired as to ignore it, but to confront it both in ourselves and in the world.

This is what Jesus teaches we should do, in addition to being the beneficiaries of grace and even rid of the guilt of original sin. I like to think of it in terms of striving to achieve the spirit of these commandments... personally and in the world in general. I have a long way to go...

Matthew 5: 20-48.


20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Concerning Anger

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, ‘You shall not murder’; and ‘whoever murders shall be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister,[a] you will be liable to judgment; and if you insult* a brother or sister,[c] you will be liable to the council; and if you say, ‘You fool,’ you will be liable to the - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -[d] of fire. 23 So when you are offering your gift at the altar, if you remember that your brother or sister[e] has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother or sister,[f] and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court[g] with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

Concerning Adultery

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be thrown into - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -.[h] 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -.

Concerning Divorce

31 “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Concerning Oaths

33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but carry out the vows you have made to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 Let your word be ‘Yes, Yes’ or ‘No, No’; anything more than this comes from the evil one.[j]

Concerning Retaliation

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; 40 and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; 41 and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. 42 Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers and sisters,[k] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


--------------------------

Tall order... eh?*


----------



## hobbs27

Something has to happen on this side of life. Regeneration I believe but something has to take place.It's not just a matter of believing.Folks in he11 are believers.


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Something has to happen on this side of life. Regeneration I believe but something has to take place.It's not just a matter of believing.Folks in he11 are believers.



Yea... and I recently found out that satanist believe also,  and that some understand redemption and salvation real well, but they just don't care...to end up miserable for eternity!

Personally my pet quest is justice--as per my Lord.

Ever wonder what the link between sexual assault and crimes agains humanity is? This:


----------



## Artfuldodger

What about "repentance?" How does it fit into our salvation? Some feel repentance is a work, is it?


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## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> What about "repentance?" How does it fit into our salvation? Some feel repentance is a work, is it?



That's because some people aren't able to place a scriptural perspective on 'works'.

Without repentance, there is no salvation!

Repentance says, "I want Jesus rather than the world".

Repentance is how one walks in the light.
Without repentance, there is only darkness.

Here's scripture that deals with repentance and deeds.
"John 3:19-21, Jesus said to Nicodemus,   "And this is judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."


----------



## Israel

I keep crashing into something whenever I set out to do anything.
I am beginning to see the safety of my doing nothing.
Grace has allowed me to see who I crash into.
The only one who is doing anything.


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## StriperAddict

*Amen, thanks brother*



Israel said:


> I keep crashing into something whenever I set out to do anything.
> I am beginning to see the safety of my doing nothing.
> Grace has allowed me to see who I crash into.
> The only one who is doing anything.



I get that.  

But I admit often I'll go to the point of a complete train wreck before that One is seen by me as the all of it. 
Nowhere else have we to go. No one has words of life, none take us on and have us emptied of all we are....  yet in that death be filled with Himself - 
but seen only with faith.
I'm becoming more content in that, just wish this 'ol clay would stop pushing "those buttons" .  

House hunting has been a real button stomper!


----------



## Artfuldodger

StriperAddict said:


> I get that.
> 
> But I admit often I'll go to the point of a complete train wreck before that One is seen by me as the all of it.
> Nowhere else have we to go. No one has words of life, none take us on and have us emptied of all we are....  yet in that death be filled with Himself -
> but seen only with faith.
> I'm becoming more content in that, just wish this 'ol clay would stop pushing "those buttons" .
> 
> House hunting has been a real button stomper!



No luck on finding a house yet?


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> As it relates to how individuals are saved, there are two main positions that scholars take; one position is the free grace view, the other is the lordship salvation view. The former states that a believer receives the right to live with God for all eternity solely by the grace of God which is given at no cost to the believer. The latter states that the right to live with God for all eternity is not only based on trust in God but totally and completely surrendering every aspect of their lives to God.
> 
> Now here are some observations about Lordship salvation.
> 1. In the final analysis, it is salvation by works, which is in direct contrast to the teaching of the Scriptures.
> 2. If one must accept Christ as Lord of his life in order to be saved, it would of necessity remove growth in grace.
> 3. Lordship salvation necessitates the doctrine of losing one's salvation. If one must make Jesus his Lord in order to be saved, then when he backslides to the position to where Jesus is no longer his Lord, consistency would drive us to believe that he is no longer saved.
> 4. Lordship salvation makes no provision for the carnal Christian. None of us takes pleasure in the carnality of a Christian, but the fact remains that there is such a person taught in the Bible.
> 5. Lordship salvation removes grace and would nullify the plainest verses in the Bible concerning salvation.
> 6. Salvation is receiving, not giving.
> 3. When Christ enters, the old man does not leave.
> Perhaps the greatest Christian who ever lived was the Apostle Paul. In speaking of himself he said, "0 wretched man that I am." He called himself "the chief of sinners." He said the things that he would do, he did not, and the things he would not do, he did. Probably Jesus was Lord of more of Paul's life than any other person who ever lived, but Paul himself said he had not yet apprehended.
> by Dr. Jack Hyles:
> http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books..._salvation.htm



I don't know why   but I am drawn back to this OP in this thread this morning.
Should we be embarrassed to even consider anything less that what I've highlighted in blue above?
Are we, and have we become the people of Noah's day?  So filled with ourselves and our desire to live lives that can only be committed to ourselves.  Are people no longer capable of living with an acknowledgement that Jesus is the lord of their life?........  That I can somehow, somehow.... believe in Him and trust in Him, but not realized Him as Lord?

Here's another statement from the original post:
"5. Lordship salvation removes grace and would nullify the plainest verses in the Bible concerning salvation."
Frankly, this is the statement of scriptural fool!!!!!
Jesus Christ IS Lord.  
Ask Adam and Eve if grace and Lordship work together.  Or Cain.  Or Peter.  Or Annanias and his wife.

The thought of separating grace and lordship is hogwash.

.


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## Israel

StriperAddict said:


> I get that.
> 
> But I admit often I'll go to the point of a complete train wreck before that One is seen by me as the all of it.
> Nowhere else have we to go. No one has words of life, none take us on and have us emptied of all we are....  yet in that death be filled with Himself -
> but seen only with faith.
> I'm becoming more content in that, just wish this 'ol clay would stop pushing "those buttons" .
> 
> House hunting has been a real button stomper!



It's great to be "gotten"...and I mean that profoundly.
I think sometimes of those places where the Lord speaks of having "joy" in us...and I see more and more how much it is to do with understanding him...receiving him...his finding someone who either seeks to...or "gets" him.
And I only speak of that from my own meager perspective...that is...since I am discovering how rare and precious it is for anyone to say "I understand you" since I am rather simple and easily sorted out...how much more the Lord must appreciate it.


Maybe someone will get this...maybe not...


And I believe I say this without shame.

I would be a liar to deny how much and how often I am ashamed of the man I am. But, that being said...even in the midst of that...I see hope. And the seeing of that hope does a remarkable thing about the experience of that shame. 
It is not that I am surprised I am not a better man...but more like...wow, Lord...no wonder you had to die! No wonder you didn't let me see this at the beginning...I don't know if the depths of it would have been anything but discouraging...

And, without shame I again say...I am stupid to think I have actually seen anything but the surface scratched. And I am not encouraging anyone to go on a depths of depravity safari.
I simply see that I am all wrong...and it's allright...because that is who Jesus is...the one who came for the "all wrong".
I simply can't deny it. 

He gives me hope when everything else I could possibly see as a reality in that situation argues against it.

 And hope, I begin to understand, maketh not ashamed.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> I don't know why   but I am drawn back to this OP in this thread this morning.
> Should we be embarrassed to even consider anything less that what I've highlighted in blue above?
> Are we, and have we become the people of Noah's day?  So filled with ourselves and our desire to live lives that can only be committed to ourselves.  Are people no longer capable of living with an acknowledgement that Jesus is the lord of their life?........  That I can somehow, somehow.... believe in Him and trust in Him, but not realized Him as Lord?
> 
> Here's another statement from the original post:
> "5. Lordship salvation removes grace and would nullify the plainest verses in the Bible concerning salvation."
> Frankly, this is the statement of scriptural fool!!!!!
> Jesus Christ IS Lord.
> Ask Adam and Eve if grace and Lordship work together.  Or Cain.  Or Peter.  Or Annanias and his wife.
> 
> The thought of separating grace and lordship is hogwash.
> 
> .



Of course Grace & Lordship/Discipleship  go together but the point is whether Lordship is part of your salvation. 
 Baptism, forgiving others, and help sick people are part of Christianity but are they part of our salvation?
I think you started a thread about Discipleship about what would we give up to follow Jesus. Does God want every one of us to become a preacher or missionary? Does he want all of us to sell our homes? 
I started this thread after looking and reading some of David Platt's preachings. I'm not against discipleship but I didn't like the way he was wrapping it into salvation. Then he's trying to tell everyone to sell their goods and become a missionary. That's all well and good if the Holy Spirit moves you in that direction but it isn't part of salvation.
Here is a review of his book "Radical" that reflects my view:
Sure, the book contains examples of how David has moved to a smaller house, and how rich people in his church sold everything to give the money to the church, and the struggle David faces in reconciling the teachings of Jesus with pastoring a megachurch. But he's still there and so is the multimillion dollar campus. The people are still rich. The church is still powerful. David is still famous.

Is it possible to have a book written by someone who is not all these things? What about the person who gives the widow's mite? What about the pastor who has served in the same church for 50 years in a dying community? What about the parents who never had children, and didn't have the money to adopt, and didn't qualify for foster care, but still took care of needy children in their neighborhood?

What about the family who could never downsize their home because they never owned a home? What about the pastor who grew his church from 10 to 100, and then, rather than give himself a raise, took a pay cut and a second job so he could send 50 of those people to another part of the city to plant a new church? This is radical. This is following Jesus. This is living your faith outside the American dream. I personally know people who have done all these things. To me, they are the true radicals. 

http://www.amazon.com/Radical-Takin...?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0


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## Artfuldodger

There is a difference between the requirements for and the results of salvation. One can blurr the line of distinction between the doctrines of salvation and discipleship. It requires an upfront commitment to the "good works" of discipleship in "exchange" for salvation. It shows our obedience to God is part of our salvation instead of our love of God after we have salvation.  We are saved by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Now if you want to talk about the importance of discipleship we can do that but I don't see how we can add it to our salvation.


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## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> No luck on finding a house yet?


Bless you brother for asking.. 

Another contract has begun, and the wait begins again at the time of this writing.  As our brother Israel shared, I am content in the hope of God's work, even in this struggle with self and some vain reasoning's during the process.  
By faith I see and cling to the greater good, sans my own feeble input and understanding. 

Well content with my weakness?  Maybe I'm not there quite yet!  But I've said before, I'll hope in what my eyes do not see... and I might rest while the trial continues,
while God shakes and breaks,
and molds us unto the hidden life already alive within.


And please pray. I am always _well content_ in that!


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## StriperAddict

Israel said:


> And I believe I say this without shame.
> 
> I would be a liar to deny how much and how often I am ashamed of the man I am. But, that being said...even in the midst of that...I see hope. And the seeing of that hope does a remarkable thing about the experience of that shame.
> It is not that I am surprised I am not a better man...but more like...wow, Lord...no wonder you had to die! No wonder you didn't let me see this at the beginning...I don't know if the depths of it would have been anything but discouraging...
> 
> And, without shame I again say...I am stupid to think I have actually seen anything but the surface scratched. And I am not encouraging anyone to go on a depths of depravity safari.
> I simply see that I am all wrong...and it's allright...because that is who Jesus is...the one who came for the "all wrong".
> I simply can't deny it.
> 
> He gives me hope when everything else I could possibly see as a reality in that situation argues against it.
> 
> And hope, I begin to understand, maketh not ashamed.



Bless you Israel. So many amens here, especially for what's highlighted.


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## Artfuldodger

I'm glad you mentioned "Hope." We don't talk about hope very much.

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
The whole chapter 13 talks about our discipleship being worthless without love. We can tie faith, hope, & love into our discipleship.


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## StriperAddict

*Hope...  !*

Here's some wonderful verses of necessity I am clinging to lately...

Romans 5:3-5 
<sup class="versenum">3 </sup>And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; <sup class="versenum">
</sup><sup class="versenum">4 </sup>and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; <sup class="versenum">
5 </sup>and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


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## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> There is a difference between the requirements for and the results of salvation. One can blurr the line of distinction between the doctrines of salvation and discipleship. It requires an upfront commitment to the "good works" of discipleship in "exchange" for salvation. It shows our obedience to God is part of our salvation instead of our love of God after we have salvation.  We are saved by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
> 
> Now if you want to talk about the importance of discipleship we can do that but I don't see how we can add it to our salvation.



Mine and your meager attempt of it is already there.  Or salvation has eluded us.  Discipleship is nothing more than loving and seeking.


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## Israel

sometimes I think salvation is like air, it's all around...everyone enjoys its benefits...but to those who refuse it...someday will ask..."how was I kept alive by refusing to breathe?"
"Oh", the Lord may reply, "even in your refusal I showed you great mercy and kept you by grace and miraculous power...but now you shall have everything you wanted...and nothing of what you refused...your very own way"
Judas went to his own place.

Me...I am just beginning to discover, having my own way, and being alone...is the place where I have gnashed my own teeth to the bone.
I have been the bully on the playground, and when I have scared everyone else off...I find it is no playground anymore.


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## Ronnie T

Whenever a 'lover of Christ' discusses salvation they will often find themselves in the same dark corner as Paul was in 2Cor 12....... discussing salvation without appearing to boast.

There's no room for boasting in salvation.  There never is.  But as in the case of Paul, salvation and life in Christ should not be allowed to become a garbage heap.

There simply must be an acceptance of Christ's lordship in the life of a person who has accepted the touch of God's son.  Yet even as I acknowledge it, I see my own failures.  But my failures don't change the truth of the Lordship of Christ.
.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Whenever a 'lover of Christ' discusses salvation they will often find themselves in the same dark corner as Paul was in 2Cor 12....... discussing salvation without appearing to boast.
> 
> There's no room for boasting in salvation.  There never is.  But as in the case of Paul, salvation and life in Christ should not be allowed to become a garbage heap.
> 
> There simply must be an acceptance of Christ's lordship in the life of a person who has accepted the touch of God's son.  Yet even as I acknowledge it, I see my own failures.  But my failures don't change the truth of the Lordship of Christ.
> .



It's very hard not to boast. Some lost people take witnessing the wrong way. They think you are just trying to make it appear you are just better than them. I guess we have to be careful what we boast about and place the praise on God & Jesus.
Galatians 6:14
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.


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## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> *It's very hard not to boast. *Some lost people take witnessing the wrong way. They think you are just trying to make it appear you are just better than them. I guess we have to be careful what we boast about and place the praise on God & Jesus.
> Galatians 6:14
> May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.



Yes.
It is the seeking out of how that thing that so loves to do that (boast)...in fact has made it its sole and major occupation, has been put to death in the Lord that frees us to preach the gospel. Otherwise it simply becomes something other than the truth. Which is called a lie. 

And is nothing less than an occasion for the flesh to proclaim "my God is better than your God so do as I say..."

Are we disqualified? No. 
Do we learn through many chastenings? Yes.

This gospel really is true, God is love. And no amount of arm twisting, service, sacrifice, pleading could get him to love any of us more than he already does...or even love any "other"...any less.

As Groucho Marx wisely said:

"I would not belong to any club that would have me as a member"

The club mentality, the in crowd, the out crowd, all...put to death through the body of Messiah.


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## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> It's very hard not to boast. Some lost people take witnessing the wrong way. They think you are just trying to make it appear you are just better than them. I guess we have to be careful what we boast about and place the praise on God & Jesus.
> Galatians 6:14
> May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.



Exactly... I don't boast because God chose me and maybe not you! I praise God for giving me the option of the cross.


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## hawglips

I think Christians should believe what Christ said about salvation - all of it.


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## rjcruiser

hawglips said:


> I think Christians should believe what Christ said about salvation - all of it.



I absolutely agree with you.  The Bible paints a complete picture of salvation....no reason to add to it or take away from it.


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## Big7

EVERY DENOMINATION except ONE is a schism.
It was the first and it will be the last.

Only thing close is Eastern Orthodox.

You guy's need to just stop.

Especially some of the post's on the first 2 pages.


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## rjcruiser

Big7 said:


> EVERY DENOMINATION except ONE is a schism.
> It was the first and it will be the last.
> 
> Only thing close is Eastern Orthodox.
> 
> You guy's need to just stop.
> 
> Especially some of the post's on the first 2 pages.




I'm betting if you asked the Eastern Orthodox who was the only one...they'd say they were

BTW...welcome back.  Dawg2 has been holding down the fort pretty well for y'all.  Miss some of those oldies but goodies with you and Dominic.


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