# Chattahoochee National Forest



## Possum (Sep 28, 2016)

I have hunted the gov land in north Ga mountains for 20 years now. I've killed many many deer up here. 7 years ago the number of doe days during rifle season was reduced to 3. Last year I think I saw less than 10 does all season and so far this year in 6 sittings I haven't seen any. I remember back in early 2000s I wouldn't see deer every time I went in woods but it was rare to go 3 or 4 sittings without seeing a deer. 
So what is going on??! Predation? Food? It's not more deer being killed by hunters for sure. 
Any body else seeing different results than me? I'd be curious if anyone sees more does now than they did 10 years ago.


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## PappyHoel (Sep 28, 2016)

The check in results differ from your opinion

Union - 61 deer checked 25 male 36 female

Fannin - 41 deer checked 13 male 41 female

Lumpkin - 54 deer checked 18 male 36 female

I'm sure I missed a county where the NF is but my point is, folks are killing all the deer.  Those 3 counties are neck and neck with other counties reported totals.


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## Possum (Sep 28, 2016)

How do they differ when there isn't results from 10 years ago? Question was is anyone seeing more does now than they used to before the doe days were reduced to 3? I know people still kill deer up here but I'm asking to compare now to 7+ years ago when there was a lot more doe days.


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## Possum (Sep 28, 2016)

Also keep in mind that's only a little over 100 does killed in 3 weeks on how many hundreds of thousands of acres?


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## Duff (Sep 28, 2016)

Idk Possum. I haven't hunted NF and have not wanted too. 2 friends that have been have seen 2 deer between 20 sits and they are good mtn hunters. Something is up. 

I know the private fields that but up to NF around this area are usually full of deer before season and early season. Not this year. Can't even see a deer in those fields. What do you think is going on??


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## Possum (Sep 28, 2016)

Idk either? But reducing doe days didn't help. I think biologist need to go back to drawing board and figure something else out. 
Ind I looked up the land area of those three counties and it's about 1,000 sq miles= 640,000 acres so that's about one doe killed for every 6,400 acres in first three weeks of bow season.


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## Possum (Sep 28, 2016)

I do know I see way more coyotes and bears than I did 10 years ago and hogs showed up around that time too. Maybe that has more to do with it than the state thinks?


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## Beardedbud (Sep 28, 2016)

I have been in the woods about 3 times on NF Land this year. Tons of acorns dropping and I haven't seen the first deer.


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## Possum (Sep 28, 2016)

Another observation that I find unusual is the ratio. I see about 2 does to one buck. And that's been pretty consistant last few years. The stats say that's accurate based on harvest this year. But one would think having so many buck only days and so few either sex days the ratio would be much higher does per buck? Is it possible that does with smaller body size could fall to predation easier than a buck? I'm not saying this is fact, just an observation.


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## whitetailfreak (Sep 28, 2016)

Numbers seem to be up a tad here in western cnf. Im in Murray/Gilmer.


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## Duff (Sep 28, 2016)

Possum said:


> I do know I see way more coyotes and bears than I did 10 years ago and hogs showed up around that time too. Maybe that has more to do with it than the state thinks?



Maybe so. Thats were I would start


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## PappyHoel (Sep 28, 2016)

Coyotes and bears will take lots of fawns..  IMO the deer migrated off the forest to private because they don't allow clear cutting anymore.  The habitat isn't there and everyone and their grandmother deer hunts up there. I've hunted CHF off and on since 1993.


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## Possum (Sep 28, 2016)

That may be the case in parts of CNF but not around here. I hunt it a lot, at least twice a week all season, I haven't seen another deer hunter in the woods in probably 5 years. See trucks but I don't park anywhere near another truck and usually walk a good ways in. It's nothing like WMA hunting, way less pressure. And the deer may have migrated but it wasn't due to food. Forest service still does fair amount of timber harvest and controlled burns happen every few years in this area. 
I believe habitat and food is as good as it was 10 years ago and if anything there is less pressure now. 
Turkeys are as good as they were back then, only species I see less of is deer.


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## jbogg (Sep 28, 2016)

I just started hunting the mountains this year so I can't speak to NF lands, but I had a small 200 acre lease in White county for the last 20+ years and our deer numbers fell tremendously over the past ten years or so.  The bumper acorn crop this year makes a tough situation even tougher since they don't have to travel to find food.


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## Water Swat (Sep 28, 2016)

2 sits ZERO sightings.


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## C.Killmaster (Sep 28, 2016)

PappyHoel said:


> The check in results differ from your opinion
> 
> Union - 61 deer checked 25 male 36 female
> 
> ...



Most of those deer would have come from private land.  There have only been 30 deer reported on the entire CNF outside WMAs thus far and that's the total from all counties that have CNF lands.


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## C.Killmaster (Sep 28, 2016)

Possum said:


> I have hunted the gov land in north Ga mountains for 20 years now. I've killed many many deer up here. 7 years ago the number of doe days during rifle season was reduced to 3. Last year I think I saw less than 10 does all season and so far this year in 6 sittings I haven't seen any. I remember back in early 2000s I wouldn't see deer every time I went in woods but it was rare to go 3 or 4 sittings without seeing a deer.
> So what is going on??! Predation? Food? It's not more deer being killed by hunters for sure.
> Any body else seeing different results than me? I'd be curious if anyone sees more does now than they did 10 years ago.



This very topic is of considerable concern within WRD.  We are in the early stages of designing one of the most comprehensive research projects ever conducted in Georgia to shed some light on the issue.  In addition, a meeting has been scheduled for biologists from all the states in the southern appalachians that will likely lead to similar projects in each of those states.


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## Duff (Sep 28, 2016)

C.Killmaster said:


> This very topic is of considerable concern within WRD.  We are in the early stages of designing one of the most comprehensive research projects ever conducted in Georgia to shed some light on the issue.  In addition, a meeting has been scheduled for biologists from all the states in the southern appalachians that will likely lead to similar projects in each of those states.



That is good to hear. Cut, cut and cut

Does this have anything to do with the meetings I saw recently asking for public input. I believe one of the meetings is scheduled in Dalonega. Another in Rome ...  Maybe 2 different things.


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## C.Killmaster (Sep 29, 2016)

Duff said:


> That is good to hear. Cut, cut and cut
> 
> Does this have anything to do with the meetings I saw recently asking for public input. I believe one of the meetings is scheduled in Dalonega. Another in Rome ...  Maybe 2 different things.



No, it's two different things.  There's nothing official in place yet, but it shouldn't be long.


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## Possum (Sep 29, 2016)

C.Killmaster said:


> This very topic is of considerable concern within WRD.  We are in the early stages of designing one of the most comprehensive research projects ever conducted in Georgia to shed some light on the issue.  In addition, a meeting has been scheduled for biologists from all the states in the southern appalachians that will likely lead to similar projects in each of those states.



Oh yes! Music to my ears! Glad to know things are being discussed! Look forward to more info about it.
Thank you sir


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## Possum (Sep 29, 2016)

C.Killmaster said:


> Most of those deer would have come from private land.  There have only been 30 deer reported on the entire CNF outside WMAs thus far and that's the total from all counties that have CNF lands.



That's incredibly sad! One deer killed per 25,000 acres of CNF in three weeks!


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## Possum (Sep 29, 2016)

Many people know how bad it has got, but for those that don't, let me paint this picture... 15-20 years ago me and my dad would ride around the dirt roads up here scouting. In a couple hours of driving around we would frequently count 10+ deer spotted from truck. Now you can ride those same roads 10+ times and you'd be lucky to see a single deer at all. 
10 years ago in 2006 I hunted nothing but CNF that season. That year I shot a doe and an 8 point with a bow, two does with ML and another 8 point and a few does with rifle. One of those does was killed at Warwoman and it was aged at 9.5 yr old. You can say I contributed to the fall of the deer population but I let many many bucks walk and probably saw 40+ does from the stand that year. 
That was also the year I shot first coyote from CNF.
In 2013 I saw and killed more coyotes from the deer stand than I did deer. 
In last 3 years I have only killed 2 bucks and one doe off CNF.
I don't know if it's coyotes, bear, hogs or what but something is bad off from what it should be.


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## j_seph (Sep 29, 2016)

Is restocking the mountains not feasible?


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## j_seph (Sep 29, 2016)

Possum said:


> Many people know how bad it has got, but for those that don't, let me paint this picture... 15-20 years ago me and my dad would ride around the dirt roads up here scouting. In a couple hours of driving around we would frequently count 10+ deer spotted from truck. Now you can ride those same roads 10+ times and you'd be lucky to see a single deer at all.
> 10 years ago in 2006 I hunted nothing but CNF that season. That year I shot a doe and an 8 point with a bow, two does with ML and another 8 point and a few does with rifle. One of those does was killed at Warwoman and it was aged at 9.5 yr old. You can say I contributed to the fall of the deer population but I let many many bucks walk and probably saw 40+ does from the stand that year.
> That was also the year I shot first coyote from CNF.
> In 2013 I saw and killed more coyotes from the deer stand than I did deer.
> ...


I can remember back then riding through Russell, one loop see 20 -50 deer. Had videos of not one but 3-5 bucks standing in foodplots before season. It is something now if ya ride through and happen to see a deer run across road. Could drive by some plots and there would be 15 deer standing out there eating, go 300 yards to next one and be 10 standing in it.


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## Possum (Sep 29, 2016)

j_seph said:


> Is restocking the mountains not feasible?



I vote we gather up all the deer from suburbs and restock mountains! They don't need all those big deer!

And I know exactly what you are talking about, Russell WMA is a good example of the population crash. Still a lot more deer there than up here in North Habersham though.


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## C.Killmaster (Sep 29, 2016)

j_seph said:


> Is restocking the mountains not feasible?



No, it wouldn't really make sense to spend lots of money to capture and release a bunch of deer without first addressing the cause of the decline.  Those stocked deer will be subject to the same issue and we'll be right back to square one in a few years.  On top of that, there are too many disease concerns when you start moving animals around.  We  now have cranial abscess in nearly half the state from deer we sourced from Wisconsin 50 years ago.  You just never know what problems you may cause down the road, even if you source animals from within the state.


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## j_seph (Sep 29, 2016)

C.Killmaster said:


> No, it wouldn't really make sense to spend lots of money to capture and release a bunch of deer without first addressing the cause of the decline.  Those stocked deer will be subject to the same issue and we'll be right back to square one in a few years.  On top of that, there are too many disease concerns when you start moving animals around.  We  now have cranial abscess in nearly half the state from deer we sourced from Wisconsin 50 years ago.  You just never know what problems you may cause down the road, even if you source animals from within the state.


So what if the cause of decline was too liberal hunting limits? How long would it take to build the herd back to what it once was if seasons or limits were cut back?
Thanks for reply


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## j_seph (Sep 29, 2016)

Possum said:


> I vote we gather up all the deer from suburbs and restock mountains! They don't need all those big deer!
> 
> And I know exactly what you are talking about, Russell WMA is a good example of the population crash. Still a lot more deer there than up here in North Habersham though.


Remember the Village? You turned me on to that, drive thru and slap covered with deer now not so


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## Etoncathunter (Sep 29, 2016)

I've noticed the same issue here on the western side of the CNF. Back in the late 80's/90's we hunted the peeples lake/tatum lead area. You could count on seeing something on more hunts than not. When I started back hunting in '11 after about a 10 year break it was like a night and day difference. Very little sign, and after hunting HARD for 3 years I could count the number of deer seen on 2 hands with fingers left over. The last season I hunted there was '14 and I hunted at least 3-4 days each week for the entire season and only saw 1 doe. I think it's a combination problem, the increase in bear population, hogs &coyotes  moving in, and the fact the woods are more mature. With less new growth there is less browse and less cover for fawns.  That is all a guess through.


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## biggdogg (Sep 29, 2016)

Probably the biggest problem on federal lands is the fact that there is no more logging leaving very little in the way of natural browse.


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## Possum (Sep 29, 2016)

j_seph said:


> Remember the Village? You turned me on to that, drive thru and slap covered with deer now not so



Haha yeah I still hunt there some, it's still about best place around here but yeah, nothing like it used to be. 

Bears are probably doing so well now because there is a ton of acorns and no deer to eat them.

This morning was my 9th time on 9 different stands on CNF. Every place had great white oaks. Not a deer seen yet. Not even bumped anything on way in or out. 

I'm about to give it up and stick to my place in Piedmont. I love sitting in woods and don't consider it unsuccessful just because I don't kill a deer but sitting for 50 hours and not seeing a deer sure gets boring!


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## Possum (Sep 29, 2016)

biggdogg said:


> Probably the biggest problem on federal lands is the fact that there is no more logging leaving very little in the way of natural browse.



There is still some logging on national forest. I don't remember if there was a lot more 10 years ago but I don't recall there being that much going on back then either. 

They logged a good area I hunted 3-4 years ago and I've hunted it last couple years with no noticeable difference in number of deer I've seen in there. Even a couple years ago when it had tons of browse and there was no acorns in mountains.


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## Possum (Sep 29, 2016)

I'm just glad the DNR realizes there is a problem and something needs to be done differently. 

And I guess it is good evidence that you can reduce doe days and shorten season and it still may have no impact on improving deer numbers. 

If they decide predators are the problem and don't want to do a bounty, I'd be all for giving CNF hunters one deer tag and then they can turn in a coyote killed for an extra deer tag. That would get more people out actually hunting yotes.


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## Duff (Sep 29, 2016)

Possum said:


> I'm just glad the DNR realizes there is a problem and something needs to be done differently.
> 
> And I guess it is good evidence that you can reduce doe days and shorten season and it still may have no impact on improving deer numbers.
> 
> If they decide predators are the problem and don't want to do a bounty, I'd be all for giving CNF hunters one deer tag and then they can turn in a coyote killed for an extra deer tag. That would get more people out actually hunting yotes.



I'm glad they realize it also. I use to hunt Chatt and Chestatee a good bit. I wrote the decline off to no timber harvest. But the last few years I've heard about a drastic decline on Russell and the surrounding NF. They are always cutting on Russell. (At least they did when I hunted there). Hope they figure it out soon


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## Unicoidawg (Sep 29, 2016)

My personal opinion is it is a combination of things. Lack of forest management, due to influence above our local USFS and DNR guys. Population explosions of both bears, illegally introduced hogs and coyotes. I think something drastic is going to have to be done........ what IDK, but I am glad Charlie and the guys in the know realize there is a problem and are at least willing to look into it. I will always hunt up in the mtns. as long as I am able. There's nothing like watching the sun rise over the Blue Ridge welcoming a crisp fall morning......


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## bowbuck (Sep 29, 2016)

There is no doubt that NF in Habersham isn't what it was in the 90's.  I hunt it about 50% of the time and private land the rest.   I will say before the doe days changed to just two I had a hard time seeing deer. I have saw more does and deer the last two years.   I also did a good bit of scouting the last couple of years and have found a couple of areas on NF in another county with a lot of deer. I see deer just about every time.  I love hunting the areas I grew up on but if there are no deer I am willing to use my fingers on the Internet and my danners on the ground to have better places. I killed a doe this morning on NF. The area was covered up in deer sign and bear sign. 

I think predation by bears is the biggest issue.  CNF lands outside the WMA's get very little pressure on the bears. It seems as if hunting pressure on NF is not like it use too. My folks have land that borders NF and there use to be 8-10 vehicles on Saturdays on he the side of the road. I can't remember the last time I saw more than one parked there.


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## PaDawg (Sep 29, 2016)

C.Killmaster said:


> This very topic is of considerable concern within WRD.  We are in the early stages of designing one of the most comprehensive research projects ever conducted in Georgia to shed some light on the issue.  In addition, a meeting has been scheduled for biologists from all the states in the southern appalachians that will likely lead to similar projects in each of those states.



This is definitely music to my ears.  Personally I believe its the bears.  This exact scenario played out in northern PA.  The habitat management subsided(e.g. fewer areas logged) and the bears exploded.  The end result is few if any deer sightings.  I hope the deer population in the GA mountains never get as bad as northcentral PA.

Wasn't there a study from Fort Rucker(?) Alabama that showed at some point when the deer population drop below a certain point, it couldn't recover.  I doubt we're that bad, but it does makes my wonder with every season...


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 1, 2016)

Way more hogs in those areas now and growing. I see hog sign almost every time im in the woods


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## tree cutter 08 (Oct 1, 2016)

Bears, then yotes second and hogs. All I hunt is cnf and wmas in the nf. I can take you right now to 7 stands of white oaks and each one has multiple bears using them. Mainly seems to be sows with cubs. When you see a sow she usually has 3 or 4 cubs. This isn't high bear country either. Its smaller pockets of nf  that's scattered over habersham and white county. Seems that the buck do ratio is closer than I can remember and I feel like its resulting in better bucks, but deer are just few and far between compared to 10 years ago. The timber hasent changed that much in the last 10 years. When you get into the higher elevation nf land its even worse. Some of my favorite spots to hunt this time of year for deer are full of bear and hog sign. The deer don't stand a chance.


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## Possum (Oct 2, 2016)

tree cutter 08 said:


> Bears, then yotes second and hogs. All I hunt is cnf and wmas in the nf. I can take you right now to 7 stands of white oaks and each one has multiple bears using them. Mainly seems to be sows with cubs. When you see a sow she usually has 3 or 4 cubs. This isn't high bear country either. Its smaller pockets of nf  that's scattered over habersham and white county. Seems that the buck do ratio is closer than I can remember and I feel like its resulting in better bucks, but deer are just few and far between compared to 10 years ago. The timber hasent changed that much in the last 10 years. When you get into the higher elevation nf land its even worse. Some of my favorite spots to hunt this time of year for deer are full of bear and hog sign. The deer don't stand a chance.



I agree with you that quality has improved. I had a trail cam this summer that had a bachelor group of 5 bucks and three were shooters. Last year had a 130+" deer on trail cam. 
It just seems odd to have such a good buck to doe ratio on land than has almost entirely buck only hunting.
Oh and Btw, the bachelor group pictures were in July. I haven't got one single deer on that camera on same tree since August 1st. Did get tons of bear pictures in August and coyote pictures almost every single night.


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## JerseyJim (Oct 2, 2016)

I hunt the eastern side of CNF outside of WMA's.
The forest service has controlled burned thousands of acres up there. There are also some cutting here and there.
The area looks great but I have not seen more than 10 deer in 3 years hunting. And I get far back in most of the time.
Heck sometimes I feel lucky to see a squirrel. And this is with acorns on the ground.
I have seen plenty of turkeys.
 It really is hard to figure how an area that looks so good can have so few deer.
Why do I continue to go up there? Because its beautiful and you can walk for miles and not see another hunter.
 I have hunted areas of PA with the exact same forest type and elevations etc and can see way more deer.
And trust me, PA has lots of coyotes and bears.

 Jim


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## 35 Whelen (Oct 2, 2016)

PaDawg said:


> This is definitely music to my ears.  Personally I believe its the bears.  This exact scenario played out in northern PA.  The habitat management subsided(e.g. fewer areas logged) and the bears exploded.  The end result is few if any deer sightings.  I hope the deer population in the GA mountains never get as bad as northcentral PA.
> 
> Hunted Potter County, PA from 1967 to 1973, was a deer hunter's paradise then.  Hard to believe it is in that bad of shape now, sad indeed.


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## Possum (Oct 4, 2016)

Here is link where hunters can comment online directly to USFS. 
Speak up if you would like to see a change on how they manage the land and wildlife up here!
www.tinyurl.com/FoothillsLandscape.


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## ArticSnake (Oct 7, 2016)

I think most deer are staying on private lands because there safer from hunters. There's a place I've hunted nf for couple yrs now and first yr I hunted it I seen 2-3 does and couple small bucks I let walk. Last yr I didn't see anything in there and so far this yr not a thing. Its all private land with lots of fields before you get to nf. Most houses there are move ins. They have feeders in there front and back yrds. I drove up there two days ago and counted 35 deer in those fields in less than a mile but nothing on the nf. I think there's plenty of deer here in the mtns but you have to ride through subdivisions to see them. They know there safer and they get plenty of food they don't have to hunt for its there mostly yr round.


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## ArticSnake (Oct 7, 2016)

My friends mom lives in kinda a subdivision there's lots of houses around and it borders nf land. She can't have a garden or even flowers in her yard because the deer eat them. She said she had to run them off her porch because they were eating her flowers in her pots. So private lands where u can't hunt subdivisions ect that's where all the mtn deer are now. Ppl are getting them so tame there putting ribbon around there neck so hunters won't shoot "there pet deer"


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## Rulo (Oct 7, 2016)

Its the perfect storm........

On the CNF ......The lack of clear cutting and the rise of coyote populations..........has done more to hurt deer populations than anything else.

Not to mention ruffed grouse..........their gone to.

Hunting and game numbers are not in the CNF's management plan.  We just dont rate in their eyes.........

Now the environmental groups.......the tree huggers and such.........they are listened to.


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## Dana Young (Oct 7, 2016)

Possum said:


> I do know I see way more coyotes and bears than I did 10 years ago and hogs showed up around that time too. Maybe that has more to do with it than the state thinks?



Here is your answer


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