# Scrub Hickory Bow



## RBM (Oct 24, 2011)

Going to give it another try mid-winter when the sap is low and cut a green stave. The last time I cut some green Maple staves, some boring bugs had got into it (that I did not see or know about) and destroyed the rough tillered bows I had strapped up to cure. Going with Swamp Hickory this time. Probably rough tiller the stave as before and seal the ends with pine resin to prevent checking. I will make the bow a little longer so I can remove the sealed ends later after it cures and I take it down for final tillering. It will be a short bow and I hope I don't break it in the process.


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## trial&error (Oct 24, 2011)

Interesting, I assumed fall to winter when the sap was down would be best time too, then when I posted the question I mas told early to mid summer when the spring growth had stopped was the best time.


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## RBM (Oct 24, 2011)

When the sap is low in winter, the green wood cures faster. McPherson says this is the best time for cutting green staves rough tillered that are to be strapped down (shaped) for curing because of the faster curing time.

I have been calling it Swamp Hickory but it is really Scrub Hickory (Carya floridana). Sorry.


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## pine nut (Oct 25, 2011)

It is usually very hard to get the bark off hickory in winter or fall.   Spring is easier, it will peel off better.  I'm no expert but that's what most folks say.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 25, 2011)

Mid-summer is a good time to cut hickory, the bark comes off easy, and it already has a good layer of latewood on the outside ring. With that said, anytime you can find it and have a chance to cut it is good. It's not that hard to get the bark off winter-cut hickory, just use a drawknife bevel-down. And no need at all to remove the sealed ends, why would you want to? I often seal the ends and the whole back of the debarked stave, just scrape it off before sanding the bow. As for the borers, they love hickory and most white woods. The secret is to get the bark off before seasoning. A hickory stave with bark on it will be bored full of holes in a month around here. If I take the bark off, they don't bother them at all. A friend and I made a hickory bow in three days with stone tools once, including chopping the tree down. It'll dry fast if you get it down to near-bow dimensions and let the sun and wind hit it.


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## RBM (Oct 25, 2011)

NCHillbilly said:
			
		

> no need at all to remove the sealed ends, why would you want to? I often seal the ends and the whole back of the debarked stave, just scrape it off before sanding the bow. As for the borers, they love hickory and most white woods. The secret is to get the bark off before seasoning. A hickory stave with bark on it will be bored full of holes in a month around here. If I take the bark off, they don't bother them at all. A friend and I made a hickory bow in three days with stone tools once, including chopping the tree down. It'll dry fast if you get it down to near-bow dimensions and let the sun and wind hit it.



I did debark the Maple staves I lost and the bugs still got it and I did not even know they were in the wood. No sign of them at all. I debark staves anyway before I tie them up for curing. No need to take the sealed ends off I guess. I just figured I would make it a bit oversize and would be taking the ends off anyway. I just might seal the back with pine resin also. Thanks for the tip. Just have to be careful not to sand or mess with the outer growth ring of the back so as not to weaken it. Most bows fail under compression with the back tearing apart giving the impression that the back failed first under tension. Most woods are stronger under tension than under compression. However the back can fail if that tension has been violated. I would be careful about putting any green wood out to cure in the direct sun. The high fast heat of the sun could cause more severe checking as moisture leaves the wood too quickly. I have had this happen with some wood types already. Slow low heat okay, high direct heat no.



			
				pine nut said:
			
		

> Spring is easier, it will peel off better.



Not only does a Spring/Summer green stave take longer to cure due to the extra sap moisture but it can lead to more checking as more of the sap moisture must leave the wood.



			
				pine nut said:
			
		

> I'm no expert but that's what most folks say.



Me either but I am just restating what McPherson has said and I do consider him to be an expert.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 26, 2011)

RBM said:


> I did debark the Maple staves I lost and the bugs still got it and I did not even know they were in the wood. No sign of them at all. I debark staves anyway before I tie them up for curing. No need to take the sealed ends off I guess. I just figured I would make it a bit oversize and would be taking the ends off anyway. I just might seal the back with pine resin also. Thanks for the tip. Just have to be careful not to sand or mess with the outer growth ring of the back so as not to weaken it. Most bows fail under compression with the back tearing apart giving the impression that the back failed first under tension. Most woods are stronger under tension than under compression. However the back can fail if that tension has been violated. I would be careful about putting any green wood out to cure in the direct sun. The high fast heat of the sun could cause more severe checking as moisture leaves the wood too quickly. I have had this happen with some wood types already. Slow low heat okay, high direct heat no.
> 
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> 
> ...



The checking depends on the wood type. Most species of hickory hardly ever check. Osage, locust, dogwood, some elms, and some others will check on you in a heartbeat. That's the ones that I seal the whole back after debarking or chasing a ring. With hickory, instead of tying it up for curing, I'll take the seasoned floor-tillered stave and clamp it to a form, then heat-treat the belly and add some reflex and straighten any flaws at the same time. Tempering the belly can make a big difference in performance with whitewoods, especially here in the humid southeast.


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## RBM (Oct 26, 2011)

NCHillbilly said:
			
		

> The checking depends on the wood type.



Yep. I agree.



			
				NCHillbilly said:
			
		

> Most species of hickory hardly ever check. Osage, locust, dogwood, some elms, and some others will check on you in a heartbeat. That's the ones that I seal the whole back after debarking or chasing a ring. With hickory, instead of tying it up for curing, I'll take the seasoned floor-tillered stave and clamp it to a form, then heat-treat the belly and add some reflex and straighten any flaws at the same time. Tempering the belly can make a big difference in performance with whitewoods, especially here in the humid southeast.



Yeah. Ideally I would like to find a good seasoned piece to use and do that with but lately there just hasn't been any. There is plenty of green Hickory though and I will probably end up having to use the green stuff if I still can't find any. I do want to use this particular kind of Hickory. Its still a long time until mid-winter so I will just keep looking in the meantime. Good to know that "most" Hickory does not check as bad. I will keep that in mind but this species may or may not if that is the case.


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## Buddy Darden (Nov 18, 2011)

I had to delay cutting my hickory staves until September due to heart surgery in early August. I removed the bark with a hatchet. It was not easy to remove, causing some cuts deeper than I wanted. I ended up with 16 staves, most large enough to make 2 bows. I am a beginner so tell me if I should scrape the entire back of the bow to the deepest portion or smooth around the deep cut areas. I don't plan on starting on these staves until they dry a few months.


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## RBM (Nov 18, 2011)

Buddy Darden said:
			
		

> I am a beginner so tell me if I should scrape the entire back of the bow to the deepest portion or smooth around the deep cut areas. I don't plan on starting on these staves until they dry a few months.



I am not an experienced bowyer and certainly no expert. All I do know is that the back of the bow should not be messed with. Remove (scrape) the bark from the back but do not cut into the growth ring. If the growth ring on the back has been cut into, it must be removed all the way down to the next growth ring. Wood can be removed from the belly and the sides but not the back. The back is under tension. The belly under compression. When a bow fails, it usually fails under compression first (pulling past its draw length or incorrectly tillered can do this as far as I know) giving the impression that it failed under tension as the back tears apart. However if the back is weakened, it will fail under tension first. This is my understanding from McPherson.


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## Redbow (Nov 26, 2011)

Don't forget about Dogwood, it makes a heck of a good bow. I like to dry my staves in an old car or truck sitting out in the Sun or in the attic of my shop. It gets hot up there too ...Dry'em for several months, a green bow won't last long.


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## chehawknapper (Nov 27, 2011)

You can cut hickory at most anytime of the year as long as you understand how the tree produces cellulose and how that affects how you treat the stave. Deciduous hardwoods produce wood that has large pores called vascular bundles that allow the transfer of water from the roots to feed the newly forming leaves. Once those leaves reach full size, the tree doesn't need so much water and then produces denser wood with much smaller pores. Ideally, you want wood that is straight grained with a large percent of "late" wood to a small percent of "early" wood. By not violating the back, which should consist of a wide ring of late wood, the tension is concentrated in a growth ring of fibers that all grew together providing good strength. Different woods have different strengths and weaknesses in tension and compression. It will also differ in individual trees. Whereas a furniture maker wants tight growth in hardwoods to minimize warping, a bowmaker wants wide growth rings in hardwood which provides tremendous strength in tension. Conifers, on the other hand, are stronger in compression and do better if chosen with tight growth rings. 
I start all new bowyers off with hickory because it is the most forgiving wood out there. I still have the first "serious" bow I ever made (late 60's) and it still shoots after a fashion. Pitiful workmanship, violated about every rule that exist in making bows but it still shoots. Killed squirrells, rabbits and 1 chipmunk with it many years ago. Cut through growth rings on the back, knots from front to back and almost side to side yet it didn't break. I have made dozens of hickory bows that are bias ringed and edge ringed that shoot fine. There are other factors to consider - how long of a bow do you wish the end product to be? Bows that are 67"+ nock to nock can be made that are hunting weight strength while violating back rings as long as you follow certain rules for making a bias ringed bow. I don't recommend you attempt a bias ring bow until you have succesfully made traditional styles first. The only reason I bother to make one myself is simply to utilize wood left over that would not make a traditional bow. 
Carefully remove the bark until you see the brown thin layer right next to the sapwood. You can leave that on after thinning it sufficiently or scrape it down to the sapwood. If the last growth ring is sufficiently thick, scrapiing a littly won't hurt anything. If it is really thin, which is quite possible with the drought we have been through, scrape down "chasing" a thicker summer ring. Or choose another stave with thicker rings. Just go slow on the back, line out and cut the sides and then patiently tiller. Good luck.


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## RBM (Nov 27, 2011)

Redbow said:
			
		

> Don't forget about Dogwood, it makes a heck of a good bow.



No I haven't forgotten, its just that there is only one kind of Dogwood that grows here that I am aware of. Stiff Dogwood Cornus foemina and I have not seen it yet nor am I familiar with it. But I will keep an eye out.


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## RBM (Nov 27, 2011)

Thanks for the low down, Ben. Good helpful info. I figured hickory would be my best choice anyway. Was thinking about a short bow of say 52 inches but depending on what I have to work with I could go up to 67. Just have to take a long look at those scrub hickory patches growing on the hill and pick and choose the best trunk.

Do you think I should keep or remove any heartwood (if present) from the grip, belly, and limbs while tillering?


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## chehawknapper (Nov 27, 2011)

Heartwood on the belly will not effect it at all. You can even make the bow from heartwood but the sapwood of hickory is stronger in tension. Shorter bows require more exacting attention to detail because there is less wood to absorb the tension and compression forces. Longer bows are more forgiving of slight mistakes. I have made bows of hunting weight as short as 42" but find my accuracy suffers with such a short bow. I currently still have a horse bow of osage, sinew backed, 52" long that pulls 82 lbs. with a 26" draw. I am good for one shot with that bow and then forget it - it's too strong for me! The deer sinew string I originally made for it is still on it, though I worry about it breaking every time I shoot it.
If you have a draw of 27/28", stick with bows of about 66-68" until you have several under your belt. Then experiment more. Once you are bitten by the bug, you will be making your own bows from now on.


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## RBM (Nov 27, 2011)

chehawknapper said:
			
		

> Heartwood on the belly will not effect it at all. If you have a draw of 27/28", stick with bows of about 66-68" until you have several under your belt.



Thanks. Then I won't worry about the heartwood. I thought draw length needed to be no greater than or maximum half the length of the bow. So that would be less than.


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## chehawknapper (Nov 27, 2011)

General rule of thumb for safety: working limb needs to be at least the length of the draw length. Less than that increases greatly the stresses on the wood to take the compression and tension without blowing up or at least taking major set in the limbs. Hickory is more likely to just take a large amount of set.


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