# Accepting  Jesus after death



## Fuzzy D Fellers

I believe one must accept Jesus to enter the Kingdom of God, however where in the bible does it say Jesus must be accepted prior to physical death?


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## gordon 2

Migmack said:


> I believe one must accept Jesus to enter the Kingdom of God, however where in the bible does it say Jesus must be accepted prior to physical death?






Mark 16:16

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I don't know but can you be baptized for belief after physical death? On what forehead, or from what  watery pool will you towel your born again spirit and what ear will be yours to understand even half, no a quarter of what Jesus might offer you after death? Will his "language" be yours--so you will understand him?

I seems to me that baptism is a spiritual feature  of salvation for the living. Try to bring a divining rod with you, hope a friend got in with a cup or a bottle and hope he was smart enough to get saved before he got there....pray for water and maybe--he/she will agree to get you baptized... and the buzzing in your spiritual ears was not a buzz at all as you towel it ---but all this time it was Jesus saying "Hallo!" to you. No. I think baptism is for the living. ( Or perhaps you could hope that some proxy might get baptized for you, someday.... as in the days of the living ( these days but past yours).... if you so believe in such baptism.)

Also the kingdom, I could show you is in the hear and now, but I'm not going to go there at this time.

PS, Migmack...  was once spelled Micmac ( the native people of Maine and Atlantic Canada.) Am I correct? Or is it Mig as in welding and Mack... as in Mackenzie? Or some other?

What's your angle on this bros?


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## gordon 2

21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


Cross References
Matthew 10:15
Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

Matthew 25:11
"Later the others also came. 'Lord, Lord,' they said, 'open the door for us!'

Luke 13:25
Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking  and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 

But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

---------------------------------------

It seems to me that there is doing and a being ( to be)---(respect and responsibility)--- that in required in this life, as shown in scripture. Scripture seems to indicate that some "Christians in name" will be bullies and will persecute others to get ahead in the world. But not all Christians will be like this. Some will toil with respect for all peoples, respecting their relationships and understandings towards the Creator and their fellow man, respecting our different ways to pray to God and respecting nature as wholesome.

Their is an interesting quirk concerning Christians and their beliefs. It goes something like this: 

In the beginning was the word, and the word.... wait let me try this again...

  " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

 And people who believe Jesus believe that Jesus is this Word made flesh! And not only this, but that He is the Creator!

My point is that many might just know Jesus ( they might be in a relationship with him as Creator)--but know not that for promises and prayers-- that from our Father God and a Hebrew girl some time ago--to all of us he came. His name Jesus. And what he did for us all, what he said for our benefit--it is not only good news, but for many still it is new news, real news!


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## Fuzzy D Fellers

gordon 2 said:


> Mark 16:16
> 
> 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
> 
> I don't know but can you be baptized for belief after physical death? On what forehead, or from what  watery pool will you towel your born again spirit and what ear will be yours to understand even half, no a quarter of what Jesus might offer you after death? Will his "language" be yours--so you will understand him?
> 
> I seems to me that baptism is a spiritual feature  of salvation for the living. Try to bring a divining rod with you, hope a friend got in with a cup or a bottle and hope he was smart enough to get saved before he got there....pray for water and maybe--he/she will agree to get you baptized... and the buzzing in your spiritual ears was not a buzz at all as you towel it ---but all this time it was Jesus saying "Hallo!" to you. No. I think baptism is for the living. ( Or perhaps you could hope that some proxy might get baptized for you, someday.... as in the days of the living ( these days but past yours).... if you so believe in such baptism.)
> 
> Also the kingdom, I could show you is in the hear and now, but I'm not going to go there at this time.
> 
> PS, Migmack...  was once spelled Micmac ( the native people of Maine and Atlantic Canada.) Am I correct? Or is it Mig as in welding and Mack... as in Mackenzie? Or some other?
> 
> What's your angle on this bros?



No angle I just never read in the bible where one must accept before a physical death.


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## gordon 2

Migmack said:


> No angle I just never read in the bible where one must accept before a physical death.



K. Your question is not unique however... if you google it--it does exist. It is just that their is a motivation in asking it, especially that other folk have asked it-- that I am curious about... Usually questions of this kind have a motivation... that is either from somewhere is  going somewhere. Peace bros.


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## Fuzzy D Fellers

I'm not trying to start a debate nor will I debate. it.


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## hobbs27

Hebrews 9:27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,


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## rjcruiser

hobbs27 said:


> Hebrews 9:27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,



Bingo.

Another I thought of is the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31.


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## centerpin fan

Migmack said:


> I just never read in the bible where one must accept before a physical death.



I never read in the Bible where one must accept.


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## gordon 2

What did Paul mean by: 

Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? (1 Corinthians 15:29)


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## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> What did Paul mean by:
> 
> Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? (1 Corinthians 15:29)



 In our day you can go to just about any religious channel and here preachers declare the rapture is near and will happen at any moment. Be prepared!

 Since the rapture theory is relatively new to the Christian faith (1832), these Christians in Corinth were not looking for a rapture but, they were looking for the return of Christ and the resurrection. It was preached as being "at hand" "within their generation" "soon" "quickly" and "before the disciples could travel through the cities of Israel". John even stated they were "in the last hour"

With all this urgency they were concerned about their family members and apparently even about the ones that had died before Christ return. Just as the Christians in 1 Thessalonians 4  were so worried about their loved ones that passed before His return.

 I believe this was a false doctrine they picked up during this time and Paul was using it to express his point about the faith in His return...What good would this baptism be if the dead were not going to rise?

 That's my opinion, probably no one elses.


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## marketgunner

Heb 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


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## hawglips

When Mary saw Jesus on the 3rd day, He said to her:

John 20: 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 

So, where had He been in spirit during this time between His death and resurrection?

1 Peter 3: 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison...

1 Peter 4: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Why preach His gospel to the spirits in prison, if there was no point to it?  Seems to me that it's because there was a point to it - that they may be judged righteously.  How can a man be judged for rejecting the gospel of Christ, if he had never had the chance to accept it while in mortality?

And since there is a way prepared for all to have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ, there must also be a way prepared for them to obey the commandment of baptism - which is pointed to by Paul during a sermon on the resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15: 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?


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## Artfuldodger

marketgunner said:


> Heb 9:27
> And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:



True but isn't there a time period between our physical deaths and this judgment?


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## Artfuldodger

hawglips said:


> And since there is a way prepared for all to have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ, there must also be a way prepared for them to obey the commandment of baptism - which is pointed to by Paul during a sermon on the resurrection:
> 
> 1 Corinthians 15: 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?



I'm curious how this proxy baptism works, meaning is it one for one or can one person be baptized for all the dead? What words are said during this baptism? 
If I was to be baptized today for all of the dead, would it cover people who die tomorrow?

There must be a time between our physical deaths and our judgment. In line with this is praying for the dead where those are dead people who have been baptized but maybe haven't repented enough for salvation.


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## welderguy

In 1 Cor.15:29 ,Paul is asking the question: If Jesus is still dead(not risen),then whats the point of being baptized for a dead saviour? He's making the point that Jesus HAS risen and is alive and that there is very much a point to it.


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## hawglips

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm curious how this proxy baptism works, meaning is it one for one or can one person be baptized for all the dead? What words are said during this baptism?
> If I was to be baptized today for all of the dead, would it cover people who die tomorrow?



The same words as a live baptism, only stating the vicarious connection of it, done one at a time.

2nd question - no.


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## hawglips

welderguy said:


> In 1 Cor.15:29 ,Paul is asking the question: If Jesus is still dead(not risen),then whats the point of being baptized for a dead saviour? He's making the point that Jesus HAS risen and is alive and that there is very much a point to it.



"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..."

So, we don't get baptized for Jesus' sins, we get baptized for the remission of our own sins.


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## welderguy

hawglips said:


> "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..."
> 
> So, we don't get baptized for Jesus' sins, we get baptized for the remission of our own sins.



We don't get baptized so that WE can remiss our sins,but rather because JESUS has remissed them.

1 Pet.3:21 explains it:
"The like figure whereunto baptism doth also now save us(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,but the answer of a good conscience toward God), by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Don't let the "save us" part confuse you.It's not speaking of eternal saving.It's for our conscience sake in the obedience to God's command to be baptized.


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## hawglips

welderguy said:


> Don't let the "save us" part confuse you.It's not speaking of eternal saving.It's for our conscience sake in the obedience to God's command to be baptized.



Reminds me of...  15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...


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## welderguy

hawglips said:


> Reminds me of...  15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...



This verse is definitely referring to eternal life,but it's not the baptism that saves eternally.(ie. thief on the cross)
Salvation is by grace through faith,and that not of yourselves,lest any man should boast.

Faith gives the ability to believe.
Baptism is in obedience as a result of the saving Faith.
Faith is the gift of God.


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## clayservant

Migmack said:


> No angle I just never read in the bible where one must accept before a physical death.



you will never read of one AFTER either.


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## Artfuldodger

clayservant said:


> you will never read of one AFTER either.



On another thread you show a couple of verses that was related to how to get into Christ through baptism.
Is it possible that people who have accepted Jesus but die before baptism  will need a proxy baptism as a way to get into Christ?


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> On another thread you show a couple of verses that was related to how to get into Christ through baptism.
> Is it possible that people who have accepted Jesus but die before baptism  will need a proxy baptism as a way to get into Christ?



What is a proxy baptism?


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> What is a proxy baptism?



When the living get baptized for the dead saints who missed their chance to get baptized while alive. Proxy baptism is necessary for certain believers who think that one must be baptized to enter Heaven.  

1 Corinthians 15: 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> When the living get baptized for the dead saints who missed their chance to get baptized while alive. Proxy baptism is necessary for certain believers who think that one must be baptized to enter Heaven.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 15: 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?



Are you one of those certain believers?

That's not what this verse is referring to at all.


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Are you one of those certain believers?
> 
> That's not what this verse is referring to at all.



No, but if one believes baptism is required for salvation to take affect then it is a way for it to happen if one dies before actually getting baptized.
I don't believe baptism is a part of salvation.


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## clayservant

Artfuldodger said:


> On another thread you show a couple of verses that was related to how to get into Christ through baptism.
> Is it possible that people who have accepted Jesus but die before baptism  will need a proxy baptism as a way to get into Christ?



I think you may have me mixed up with some one else, I don,t think I ever spoke on  how to get into Christ through baptism.


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## NCHillbilly

What does the Catholic idea of Purgatory entail? And praying for the souls of the dead?


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## Artfuldodger

clayservant said:


> I think you may have me mixed up with some one else, I don,t think I ever spoke on  how to get into Christ through baptism.



You are correct and I apologize.


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## hobbs27

7mmMag said:


> First of all baptism has nothing to do with salvation except that you are showing to the "world" that you have died to the love and practice of sin and are a new creature in Christ. There must be 1st conviction then conversion. If Christ has never convicted you then you have never been saved. It is not something you just decide one day " I'm going to be a saved today". To answer your original question the kjv of the bible states as a tree falleth so shall it lie refurring to death. How death finds your soul is how you will stand in the judgement. There will be no chance for change after death



Not disagreeing with you, but can you put that doctrine to scripture? Thanks.


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## speedcop

try Revelations 20:12


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## hobbs27

speedcop said:


> try Revelations 20:12



What about Revelation 22:17?


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## hobbs27

7mmMag said:


> The thief on the cross that Jesus told today thous shalt be with me in paradise died there on the cross never having a chance to be baptized.



 The thief was not saved on the cross, besides he died under the old covenant before salvation was given in the new covenant. Paradise was a place in Hades not heaven, we know this for several reasons but the most obvious being that Christ didn't ascend at His death on the cross but descended...Eph. 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

I don't disagree with your doctrine of salvation, I just read it in a different part of scripture and for a different reason. Not that we are scared of hades, but because the spirit draws us, the kingdom draws us, and we know for everlasting life we must enter covenant with God.
 Rev. 22


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> The thief was not saved on the cross, besides he died under the old covenant before salvation was given in the new covenant. Paradise was a place in Hades not heaven, we know this for several reasons but the most obvious being that Christ didn't ascend at His death on the cross but descended...Eph. 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
> 
> I don't disagree with your doctrine of salvation, I just read it in a different part of scripture and for a different reason. Not that we are scared of hades, but because the spirit draws us, the kingdom draws us, and we know for everlasting life we must enter covenant with God.
> Rev. 22



The thief was elected before the foundation of the world.His sins were atoned for on the cross,never to be remembered by God again.
"Hades" ,or more correctly "he11",refers to the grave in this instance: The thief's soul did not go to the grave,his body did(Eccl.12:7).His soul went to paradise which is where God is(heaven).Heaven is seperated from he11(in this case not the grave but the place of torment) by a vast distance.The work of salvation was finished at Jesus' death.It was shown to be approved by the Father at the resurrection on the third day.

Eph.4:10 "He that descended"...(Jesus was put into the grave by Joseph of Arimithea and Nicodemas)..."is the same that ascended"...(was resurrected the third day)..."far above all heavens,that He might fill all things."

Salvation for all of God's elect,past present and future,was accomplished at Jesus' death.
He didn't go to some mystical place some people refer to as "hades" to preach to souls.That is a false teaching of 1 Peter 3:19  ,which is speaking of Noah preaching,not Jesus.

He also did not have to wait until 70 AD for salvation to be accomplished.Jesus said on the cross "It is finished".The temple veil was torn apart signifying a new and living way to approach unto God.We can enter boldly into the Holiest of Holies unto the throne of grace.The middle wall of partition having been broken down.

Jesus has not come back yet because when He does,time as we know it will cease.And it is then that every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.


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## NE GA Pappy

the thief died after Christ died, so wouldn't he be under the new covenant?

Welder, the statement about sin never to be remembered by God again..... can you qualify that statement.  I read where each man will be judge by his actions, and will give an account for every deed.  If those deeds are not remembered, how can you give an account for them.    Paul speaks of all people standing before God for judgement, and that all our works would be judged.  Again, if our evil, sinful works are to be judged, how can they be forgotten?

this was a question that came up in our Bible study last Sunday night.  I have been thinking on it a bit, and believe I have a valid answer, but would love to hear your thoughts.


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## welderguy

NE GA Pappy said:


> the thief died after Christ died, so wouldn't he be under the new covenant?
> 
> Welder, the statement about sin never to be remembered by God again..... can you qualify that statement.  I read where each man will be judge by his actions, and will give an account for every deed.  If those deeds are not remembered, how can you give an account for them.    Paul speaks of all people standing before God for judgement, and that all our works would be judged.  Again, if our evil, sinful works are to be judged, how can they be forgotten?
> 
> this was a question that came up in our Bible study last Sunday night.  I have been thinking on it a bit, and believe I have a valid answer, but would love to hear your thoughts.



Yes,this blows my mind also.This is what's so amazing about what Jesus accomplished.He blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us.Now our sins are as far away from God as the east is from the west.They are cast behind His back.They are sewn up in a bag and cast into the midst of the sea.
And here's my favorite:
Rom.8:1"There is therefore NOW no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus,who walk by the spirit not by the flesh.

Yes,we will all stand before the judgement seat in God's courtroom,but our great advocate Jesus will be standing with us.And the Father will say "not guilty".And Jesus will say "come,inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world,"


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## Artfuldodger

I wonder what condemnation this is;

Romans 2:1-3
1Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God.

 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,…

Does the Lord giveth salvation and then take it away from the person who judges? The person who condemns themselves by judging others because they still sin? Perhaps we are all equally as guilty as the next man but when we judge others, we condemn ourselves. God grants us salvation but takes it away when we condemn our selves.


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Yes,this blows my mind also.This is what's so amazing about what Jesus accomplished.He blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us.Now our sins are as far away from God as the east is from the west.They are cast behind His back.They are sewn up in a bag and cast into the midst of the sea.
> And here's my favorite:
> Rom.8:1"There is therefore NOW no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus,who walk by the spirit not by the flesh.
> 
> Yes,we will all stand before the judgement seat in God's courtroom,but our great advocate Jesus will be standing with us.And the Father will say "not guilty".And Jesus will say "come,inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world,"



Isn't Romans 8:1 about someone who walks by the spirit instead of the Elect? The individuals who are "in Christ" who walk by the spirit?
If I eat too much am I walking in the flesh? If I'm jealous am I walking in the flesh? If I'm angry at my brother am I walking in the flesh or is it a constant  walk that makes it "walking in the flesh?"
How much judging others can I do before I condemn myself because I too walk in the flesh? I do the same things they do. I'm equally as guilty.


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## welderguy

7mmMag said:


> I told myself I wouldn't ever post on this forum again because there are so many different doctrines these days. I didn't mean hades as another place other than he11 I used that word because it kept censoring me. I would hate to know that someone told my children or grandchildren that their sin is already done away with or they could be saved after they die or that their salvation has already taken place or deceive them by saying be baptized and you will go to heaven. There is so much junk out there these days and I do mean junk because if someone goes to this church and doesn't like being convicted of their sin they just go to another church that tells them as long as you pad the preachers pocket your ok or if you live this way or that way you'll go to heaven. As far as giving an account for the deeds done in the flesh. This is after you are saved. The sin before salvation is what is forgotten. Those that have never been saved will be sent to he11 "depart from me you workers of iniquity I never knew you"



So are you saying the "sins" in Heb.8:11-12 are not all the sins of the elect?


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> The thief was elected before the foundation of the world.His sins were atoned for on the cross,never to be remembered by God again.
> "Hades" ,or more correctly "he11",refers to the grave in this instance: The thief's soul did not go to the grave,his body did(Eccl.12:7).His soul went to paradise which is where God is(heaven).Heaven is seperated from he11(in this case not the grave but the place of torment) by a vast distance.The work of salvation was finished at Jesus' death.It was shown to be approved by the Father at the resurrection on the third day.
> 
> Eph.4:10 "He that descended"...(Jesus was put into the grave by Joseph of Arimithea and Nicodemas)..."is the same that ascended"...(was resurrected the third day)..."far above all heavens,that He might fill all things."
> 
> Salvation for all of God's elect,past present and future,was accomplished at Jesus' death.
> He didn't go to some mystical place some people refer to as "hades" to preach to souls.That is a false teaching of 1 Peter 3:19  ,which is speaking of Noah preaching,not Jesus.
> 
> He also did not have to wait until 70 AD for salvation to be accomplished.Jesus said on the cross "It is finished".The temple veil was torn apart signifying a new and living way to approach unto God.We can enter boldly into the Holiest of Holies unto the throne of grace.The middle wall of partition having been broken down.
> 
> Jesus has not come back yet because when He does,time as we know it will cease.And it is then that every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.



If paradise is heaven as you suggest then Christ lied. After He rose he told Mary not to cling to Him for He had not ascended to the Father yet. He told the thief on the cross, today you will be with me in paradise.

 How do you explain this?


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## hobbs27

The resurrection of Christ ( though very important and victorious) is not the ascension referred to in Ephesians.


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## hummerpoo

When we speak of God's attributes, we are talking about those characteristics that help us to understand who He truly is. That which follows is a thorough, yet incomplete list and summary of His attributes.

Eternality 
Goodness                
Grace                                        
Immanence              
Immutability           
Justice                      
Love                        
Mercy
Omnipotence 
Omnipresence 
Omniscience 
Holiness 
Righteousness
Self-Existence 
Sovereignty
Transcendence


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> If paradise is heaven as you suggest then Christ lied. After He rose he told Mary not to cling to Him for He had not ascended to the Father yet. He told the thief on the cross, today you will be with me in paradise.
> 
> How do you explain this?



Jesus' spirit went to paradise(heaven) the moment He "gave up the ghost" on the cross.The thief's spirit did also.Their bodies went to the graves.
On the third day Jesus' body was resurrected and reunited with His spirit(same as ours will be at our resurrection).Jesus is the "first fruits" of them that sleep.
My opinion of why Jesus told Mary not to touch Him is this: He didn't want her to hinder Him at that moment,but to hurry and go tell the disciples to meet Him in Galilee.There was nothing wrong with her touching Him because later He would tell Thomas to touch the nail prints in His hands and thrust his hand into His side.


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Jesus' spirit went to paradise(heaven) the moment He "gave up the ghost" on the cross.The thief's spirit did also.Their bodies went to the graves.
> On the third day Jesus' body was resurrected and reunited with His spirit(same as ours will be at our resurrection).Jesus is the "first fruits" of them that sleep.
> My opinion of why Jesus told Mary not to touch Him is this: He didn't want her to hinder Him at that moment,but to hurry and go tell the disciples to meet Him in Galilee.There was nothing wrong with her touching Him because later He would tell Thomas to touch the nail prints in His hands and thrust his hand into His side.



While I don't agree that the resurrection was referred to as the ascencion nor that Paradise was Heaven, I would agree that touching in John 20:17 was "clinging" or "do not hold onto me."

In relation to the OP, Jesus went somewhere to preach. I don't know why or to whom but he did go somewhere spiritually to preach. This leads me to believe he has his own spirit. At least his 100% man part had a 100% man spirit that went somewhere to preach.  What was the purpose of that mission?


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Jesus' spirit went to paradise(heaven) the moment He "gave up the ghost" on the cross.The thief's spirit did also.Their bodies went to the graves.
> On the third day Jesus' body was resurrected and reunited with His spirit(same as ours will be at our resurrection).Jesus is the "first fruits" of them that sleep.
> My opinion of why Jesus told Mary not to touch Him is this: He didn't want her to hinder Him at that moment,but to hurry and go tell the disciples to meet Him in Galilee.There was nothing wrong with her touching Him because later He would tell Thomas to touch the nail prints in His hands and thrust his hand into His side.




I understand and agree why Jesus said not to cling to Him. Jesus clearly said " I have not yet ascended to the Father."
 You are saying He was either wrong, or partially wrong. I say He was telling the truth.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I understand and agree why Jesus said not to cling to Him. Jesus clearly said " I have not yet ascended to the Father."
> You are saying He was either wrong, or partially wrong. I say He was telling the truth.



He's saying that His body has not ascended yet to heaven.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> He's saying that His body has not ascended yet to heaven.



You have several problems with that assumption.


1. There's no scriptural support at all that Christ went to the Father in spirit for those three days.

2. There is scriptural support of Christ descending. There is scriptural support of Him leading captives upon His ascension.

3. You cite Ecclesiastes 12:7, dust returning to dust. This means our flesh when dead is nothing but earthly material, its man's Spirit in which His life is. If Christ went as a spirit to Heaven that would have been Him, not the lifeless corpse left in the tomb. Jesus was promised His body would not face corruption though, so His circumstance was different than ours.


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## Artfuldodger

1 Peter 3: 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison...

1 Peter 4: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Some believe Jesus went to the prisoners to "proclaim" victory yet 1 Peter 4:6 says to preach the gospel. Why or for what purpose?


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> You have several problems with that assumption.
> 
> 
> 1. There's no scriptural support at all that Christ went to the Father in spirit for those three days.
> 
> 2. There is scriptural support of Christ descending. There is scriptural support of Him leading captives upon His ascension.
> 
> 3. You cite Ecclesiastes 12:7, dust returning to dust. This means our flesh when dead is nothing but earthly material, its man's Spirit in which His life is. If Christ went as a spirit to Heaven that would have been Him, not the lifeless corpse left in the tomb. Jesus was promised His body would not face corruption though, so His circumstance was different than ours.



Number 3 above, does that mean Jesus died spiritually? If a man's life is spiritual and Jesus had to die for our sins, did he die spiritually? If Jesus was truly dead for three days and it took God to raise him from that death?
I'm not saying it happened this way, just trying to figure out what life and death means in the terms of Jesus dying and being made alive three days later if life is spiritual. 
If Christ went to the prison to preach, that would have been him. Same as if he went to Heaven. Yet he was dead. Some believe he didn't go anywhere because he was dead. That his preaching wasn't literal but figurative. It was his actual death on the cross that was his preaching."He poured out His soul unto death," and "made His soul an offering for sin."

Such as in the example of Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> You have several problems with that assumption.
> 
> 
> 1. There's no scriptural support at all that Christ went to the Father in spirit for those three days.
> 
> 2. There is scriptural support of Christ descending. There is scriptural support of Him leading captives upon His ascension.
> 
> 3. You cite Ecclesiastes 12:7, dust returning to dust. This means our flesh when dead is nothing but earthly material, its man's Spirit in which His life is. If Christ went as a spirit to Heaven that would have been Him, not the lifeless corpse left in the tomb. Jesus was promised His body would not face corruption though, so His circumstance was different than ours.



Luke23:46
"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice,He said,Father ,into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus,He gave up the ghost."

This,along with Eccl.12:7 confirms to me that Jesus' spirit went to the Father upon his death.


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Luke23:46
> "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice,He said,Father ,into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus,He gave up the ghost."
> 
> This,along with Eccl.12:7 confirms to me that Jesus' spirit went to the Father upon his death.



"Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit." 
“My Father, into your hands I lay down my spirit.” 
"And with those words he breathed his last."
"He said this and he expired."
"After he said this, he died."

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Maybe he was spiritually dead for three days and three nights. If lost sinners die when they die and Jesus took on the sins of the world. If eternal life is spiritual then wouldn't death also be spiritual?

Perhaps Jesus told the thief "truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise."


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## Artfuldodger

Gen 25:8 Then Abraham gave up The ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gaThered to his people.

Gen 25:17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.

Gen 35:29 And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

Gen 49:33 And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.

Job 3:11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?


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## Artfuldodger

Is the ghost people give up the the breath of life? Maybe in bible language to give up the ghost means to die. To give up the breath of life. God gave it to you and takes it away.
Then you either die or are granted eternal life.

Eccles 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

If the spirit goes back to God, does that mean that no matter who we are, saved or unsaved we will all return to God? I understand judgement but doesn't this mean our living breath that makes us a living soul?


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## hobbs27

Art, I'm amazed at times how your mind works to solve problems.
 Yes Jesus died a spiritual death. The death that Adam died " in the day" he took of the fruit. It's always been spiritual with God.

When Christ was resurrected a living spirit..He was born again. Christ died in the flesh, but rose a spiritual being, just as we are when we are saved, spiritually born again....resurrected at Salvation.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Art, I'm amazed at times how your mind works to solve problems.
> Yes Jesus died a spiritual death. The death that Adam died " in the day" he took of the fruit. It's always been spiritual with God.
> 
> When Christ was resurrected a living spirit..He was born again. Christ died in the flesh, but rose a spiritual being, just as we are when we are saved, spiritually born again....resurrected at Salvation.





   Luke 24:39
" Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

Have you ever seen a spirit eat broiled fish and honeycomb?..vs42


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## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> Is the ghost people give up the the breath of life? Maybe in bible language to give up the ghost means to die. To give up the breath of life. God gave it to you and takes it away.
> Then you either die or are granted eternal life.
> 
> Eccles 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
> 
> Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
> 
> Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
> 
> Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
> 
> If the spirit goes back to God, does that mean that no matter who we are, saved or unsaved we will all return to God? I understand judgement but doesn't this mean our living breath that makes us a living soul?



My very limited understanding.
The place where spirit and dust join is soul.
It comes into being when (where) spirit is imparted to dirt.
Soul is therefore...purposed to be. Spirit is not. Spirit is. Always. 
A living soul was given instruction by the Father of spirits Do this: have authority/dominion over all of this creation
Don't do this: eat of that one tree

One "to do" was not done, one "not to do" was done.
(In other words...don't be taking instruction from something over which I have given you dominion)
Failure in the one...led to failure complete.
Listening to the earthy was the breach, and yet, in Christ, this man of Earth is held blameless. Which is why despite sedition, God gave seed time and harvest, seed time and harvest, seed time and harvest till the promise be fulfilled.
What promise? The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, manifest in the fullness of time. The "One" of whom is said "let us make man in our image, and in our likeness"...for which Adam and Eve are a perfect...beginning...bringing forth in time...a son. A "son" of man...not the next evolution so to speak...but the son seen and promised...the fulfillment. First the earthy...then the heavenly. First the natural, then the spiritual. All perfectly of plan. 
The why of it all may be found in this...but I will not strive for I am just a man:

for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.

It would appear to me (now at least) there is something so delightful to God in the showing of mercy that he would allow for such despite in order to show it. Yes, one may say "but OH! how we suffered in that unbelief!" It was "too much". But...how can a man who has tasted the mercy of God...seen his delight in it...say such a thing? One totally eclipses the other...as a candle is eclipsed by the sun. One may say...this God then is very selfish...to be so consumed with what gives him pleasure, as to let "us" suffer...so greatly!

Yet...to him, and for him...are all things. Would you argue? And for thy pleasure...they are created. This must be settled in our hearts...for if we claim to see mercy...yet do not also have the breathtakingly glorious view of it so that all is magnificently eclipsed in its light...we must continue on.

For me, now it becomes very consuming...I must know it. This thing that God has wanted us to know, in our being made in his image and likeness, that he has purposed is learned...no other way. He is wise. The supreme pleasure of being made to show mercy...is that for which he has made us...that we might know his supreme pleasure in it.
I believe it must be so pleasing to God...that any and all other insult accrued to its sharing...becomes inconsequential to Him.
I truly believe I don't know much about it at all...but it's doing something inside me.

It (He) is doing what I could perceive...He must be..."winning my soul" away from all the earthy input I, as Adam, once embraced, and therefore knowing only the lack and passing away of my dust. (He who is wise...wins souls)
But...someone has been sent into my earth, giving life in the spirit to speak over the previous demands of all I had known...flesh. And so, now...being made alive to him, and through him, to God our Father...we may, having already learned the pain of detour...only to be empowered now by such grace and mercy...to have dominion over the earthy part in every sense, and yield, be won, be caught away by and with...the heavenly man, in whose image we are always to have been....where old is already passed away.

Jesus commended his spirit into God's hands. But of himself he says "I was dead, and now I live forevermore."
When we make his soul...an offering for sin...our soul follows him, to where he is. Spiritually (meaning REALLY) alive.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Luke 24:39
> " Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."
> 
> Have you ever seen a spirit eat broiled fish and honeycomb?..vs42



I don't expect you would believe what I'm saying even if you understood it. Jesus brought to life in spirit through resurrection... We are brought to life in spirit when we are saved...resurrected in a spiritual sense ...and we still eat, but as you say this flesh will go back to the dust one day. The flesh is death, the spirit is life eternal through the grace of God.


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## gordon 2

Israel said:


> My very limited understanding.
> The place where spirit and dust join is soul.
> It comes into being when (where) spirit is imparted to dirt.
> Soul is therefore...purposed to be. Spirit is not. Spirit is. Always.
> A living soul was given instruction by the Father of spirits Do this: have authority/dominion over all of this creation
> Don't do this: eat of that one tree
> 
> One "to do" was not done, one "not to do" was done.
> (In other words...don't be taking instruction from something over which I have given you dominion)
> Failure in the one...led to failure complete.
> Listening to the earthy was the breach, and yet, in Christ, this man of Earth is held blameless. Which is why despite sedition, God gave seed time and harvest, seed time and harvest, seed time and harvest till the promise be fulfilled.
> What promise? The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, manifest in the fullness of time. The "One" of whom is said "let us make man in our image, and in our likeness"...for which Adam and Eve are a perfect...beginning...bringing forth in time...a son. A "son" of man...not the next evolution so to speak...but the son seen and promised...the fulfillment. First the earthy...then the heavenly. First the natural, then the spiritual. All perfectly of plan.
> The why of it all may be found in this...but I will not strive for I am just a man:
> 
> for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.
> 
> It would appear to me (now at least) there is something so delightful to God in the showing of mercy that he would allow for such despite in order to show it. Yes, one may say "but OH! how we suffered in that unbelief!" It was "too much". But...how can a man who has tasted the mercy of God...seen his delight in it...say such a thing? One totally eclipses the other...as a candle is eclipsed by the sun. One may say...this God then is very selfish...to be so consumed with what gives him pleasure, as to let "us" suffer...so greatly!
> 
> Yet...to him, and for him...are all things. Would you argue? And for thy pleasure...they are created. This must be settled in our hearts...for if we claim to see mercy...yet do not also have the breathtakingly glorious view of it so that all is magnificently eclipsed in its light...we must continue on.
> 
> For me, now it becomes very consuming...I must know it. This thing that God has wanted us to know, in our being made in his image and likeness, that he has purposed is learned...no other way. He is wise. The supreme pleasure of being made to show mercy...is that for which he has made us...that we might know his supreme pleasure in it.
> I believe it must be so pleasing to God...that any and all other insult accrued to its sharing...becomes inconsequential to Him.
> I truly believe I don't know much about it at all...but it's doing something inside me.
> 
> It (He) is doing what I could perceive...He must be..."winning my soul" away from all the earthy input I, as Adam, once embraced, and therefore knowing only the lack and passing away of my dust. (He who is wise...wins souls)
> But...someone has been sent into my earth, giving life in the spirit to speak over the previous demands of all I had known...flesh. And so, now...being made alive to him, and through him, to God our Father...we may, having already learned the pain of detour...only to be empowered now by such grace and mercy...to have dominion over the earthy part in every sense, and yield, be won, be caught away by and with...the heavenly man, in whose image we are always to have been....where old is already passed away.
> 
> Jesus commended his spirit into God's hands. But of himself he says "I was dead, and now I live forevermore."
> When we make his soul...an offering for sin...our soul follows him, to where he is. Spiritually (meaning REALLY) alive.




Ok. Don't get me wrong. I am not cheering Isreal--that old crank.  I'm cheering the spirit in him. Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is of the Spirit I pray to. Wow!!!!!!!!! and Amen. So again don't get me wrong, I'm not Isreal's cheerleader, but Wow!  So


----------



## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> My very limited understanding.
> The place where spirit and dust join is soul.
> It comes into being when (where) spirit is imparted to dirt.
> Soul is therefore...purposed to be. Spirit is not. Spirit is. Always.
> A living soul was given instruction by the Father of spirits Do this: have authority/dominion over all of this creation
> Don't do this: eat of that one tree
> 
> One "to do" was not done, one "not to do" was done.
> (In other words...don't be taking instruction from something over which I have given you dominion)
> Failure in the one...led to failure complete.
> Listening to the earthy was the breach, and yet, in Christ, this man of Earth is held blameless. Which is why despite sedition, God gave seed time and harvest, seed time and harvest, seed time and harvest till the promise be fulfilled.
> What promise? The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, manifest in the fullness of time. The "One" of whom is said "let us make man in our image, and in our likeness"...for which Adam and Eve are a perfect...beginning...bringing forth in time...a son. A "son" of man...not the next evolution so to speak...but the son seen and promised...the fulfillment. First the earthy...then the heavenly. First the natural, then the spiritual. All perfectly of plan.
> The why of it all may be found in this...but I will not strive for I am just a man:
> 
> for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.
> 
> It would appear to me (now at least) there is something so delightful to God in the showing of mercy that he would allow for such despite in order to show it. Yes, one may say "but OH! how we suffered in that unbelief!" It was "too much". But...how can a man who has tasted the mercy of God...seen his delight in it...say such a thing? One totally eclipses the other...as a candle is eclipsed by the sun. One may say...this God then is very selfish...to be so consumed with what gives him pleasure, as to let "us" suffer...so greatly!
> 
> Yet...to him, and for him...are all things. Would you argue? And for thy pleasure...they are created. This must be settled in our hearts...for if we claim to see mercy...yet do not also have the breathtakingly glorious view of it so that all is magnificently eclipsed in its light...we must continue on.
> 
> For me, now it becomes very consuming...I must know it. This thing that God has wanted us to know, in our being made in his image and likeness, that he has purposed is learned...no other way. He is wise. The supreme pleasure of being made to show mercy...is that for which he has made us...that we might know his supreme pleasure in it.
> I believe it must be so pleasing to God...that any and all other insult accrued to its sharing...becomes inconsequential to Him.
> I truly believe I don't know much about it at all...but it's doing something inside me.
> 
> It (He) is doing what I could perceive...He must be..."winning my soul" away from all the earthy input I, as Adam, once embraced, and therefore knowing only the lack and passing away of my dust. (He who is wise...wins souls)
> But...someone has been sent into my earth, giving life in the spirit to speak over the previous demands of all I had known...flesh. And so, now...being made alive to him, and through him, to God our Father...we may, having already learned the pain of detour...only to be empowered now by such grace and mercy...to have dominion over the earthy part in every sense, and yield, be won, be caught away by and with...the heavenly man, in whose image we are always to have been....where old is already passed away.
> 
> Jesus commended his spirit into God's hands. But of himself he says "I was dead, and now I live forevermore."
> When we make his soul...an offering for sin...our soul follows him, to where he is. Spiritually (meaning REALLY) alive.



They do not fall, who have seen the candle brought to nothing by the sun.  With all things to Him and all things for Him, what is there to fall?  That which can fall has been made nothing.  It is not.

Bless you brother, the message you bring is assurance.


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## Artfuldodger

1 Corinthians 15:44-45
They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Adam was from the dust, Jesus was from Heaven. We are earthly dust, Jesus is a Heavenly spirit. We were born in the image of the earthly. We will be buried in this image but will be raised to bear the image of the heavenly. Our dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever. Our earthly dust bodies cannot inherit what will last forever. The perishable does not inherit the imperishable. 
Then the mystery/secret  comes. We will not all die but we will all be changed. In the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

OK at this point, the prophesy looses me. We will not all sleep/die but yet we must all wait until the last trumpet. Then and only then will our perishable take on the imperishable. Therefore we must all die a physical and spiritual  death just as Jesus did. He died physically and spiritually. When Paul says we will not all die, he means permanently. But he does say our transformation happens at the last trumpet. He never says our spirits go anywhere until the last trumpet. This is when the dead decaying perishable person puts on the imperishable spiritual body.
If Christ died so that we will live forever then we must consider how Adam died when he sinned. We know he died spiritually at the instant he sinned. Christ became the second Adam. He had to also die spiritually to take on death for us. Otherwise he only died for us physically which we know isn't true. Why because we know that our bodies return to dust. The perishable can't become imperishable. We were born earthly. Christ was from Heaven. We must take on the image of Christ(spirit) to live forever.

Now another thing I can't figure out is when we all die we will not all sleep or stay dead yet we will all be transformed. Does this mean that at the last trumpet lost sinners will also be transformed into an imperishable spiritual body?

It appears all of this transformation centers around the last trumpet in in this particular account given by Paul. We will not all sleep or stay dead leads me to believe some of us will. Yet we will all be transformed. I can't grasp that concept.


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## Artfuldodger

I think I just figured out the mystery that we will not all sleep.

1 Corinthians 15:51
Listen! I am telling you a mystery: We will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,

or
Listen! I am telling you a mystery: We will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,

This is just saying "at the last trumpet," not all Christians will be dead. Some Christians will still be alive at the last trumpet. Paul is reassuring the live Christians that the dead Christians will also be transformed and made imperishable.
Paul is addressing Christians and how they will enter Heaven. He is telling them they must shed their earthly flesh to dust, become the image of Christ who is from Heaven(spirit), die, wait until the last trumpet, and then become imperishable.
Not all Christians will be sleeping(dead) when Christ returns but all Christians will be transformed. 
But then again isn't there a verse about those in Christ rising before the lost sinners?

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 

It goes back that this happens at "the trumpet call of God."

I can find verses where dead lost sinners die but I can't find any where dead lost sinners are made imperishable. I'm trying to recall a verse where the dead Christians were called first at the last trump, then the live Christians and then the dead lost sinners.
The mystery/secret that not all Christians will die but all Christians will be transformed at the last trumpet call of God.
Yet I know that the dead lost sinners and the live lost sinners will be judged.

Just as Jesus died physically and spiritually, we will die physically and spiritually. Then we must wait until the last trump.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

This doesn't say we go directly to Heaven when we die. Physical death is like sleep. The dead know nothing. Then in the blinking of an eye, at the last trump, we will be awakened. We are sowed imperishable earthly bodies, we are raised imperishable spiritual bodies in the image of Jesus who is from Heaven(spirit) at the last trump.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

It's a temporary death for us just like Jesus had. We do all agree that Jesus died for three days don't we? This has to be more than a physical death and a physical resurrection for Jesus and us. Jesus died, and I mean all of his human entity, for three days and three nights. His Father awoke him from his death. Otherwise He didn't really die for our sins. Otherwise lost sinners don't really die, they just live forever like Christians. Adam died a spiritual death that separated him from God. Christ became a life giving spirit. We must take on this image of what Christ became.


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## hobbs27

Art, read Corinthians as a member of the church in Corinth in the first century that just received this letter.
Same with Thessalonians... They so desperately looked toward the end of the age.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Art, read Corinthians as a member of the church in Corinth in the first century that just received this letter.
> Same with Thessalonians... They so desperately looked toward the end of the age.



If the Last trumpet has sounded, the dead in Christ were raised from the grave, then the living Christians. At that time they were all transformed and went with Jesus back to heaven. They became imperishable. They took on eternal life. 
I'm with you so far. What about the lost sinners? What happened to them at the last trump? Both the living and the dead lost sinners?

What happens now that the last trumpet has sounded as it regards Christians who die a physical death? Tie this into the fact that Jesus has defeated death once and for all. I'm assuming that Christians no longer have to wait and now go directly to be with the Lord. Otherwise we will surely be waiting on that last trump. Paul said so. If the last trump is in the future then Jesus hasn't returned for us as John 14:3 says. If it has then he can come for us spiritually and take us home spiritually. Again if the last trump hasn't sounded then I see no way for him to come to us as Paul said the mystery/secret of the transformation will happen "at the last trump."
So show us the transition using scripture and opinion on what transpires to Christians now that the last trump has sounded.


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## hobbs27

Art scroll down to #7 it answers your question.
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/preterist-questions.html


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Art scroll down to #7 it answers your question.
> http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/preterist-questions.html



I understand that the last trump may have sounded. I get that or at least I understand the belief. Now let's go from that point in time until now. 
I always visioned life as we know it and the earth would end. I understand the belief that maybe it doesn't. 
Take me from the last trump until now, according to scripture. Futurist are waiting for something. I don't know what for as most believe they will go to Heaven when they die. Still they are anxious for Christ to return. Now if they believed they wouldn't go to Heaven until Christ came for them, I could understand their anticipation. 
Preterist aren't waiting for Christ's return except for Christ to appear spiritually and take them home as a spirit.
Is that all there is? We're just waiting to die a physical death  to be taken home spiritually? 
No future earth shattering kaboom? No physical resurrection? No dragons with seven heads? No seven angels with literal trumpets? No Jesus riding in on clouds?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Art, I'm amazed at times how your mind works to solve problems.
> Yes Jesus died a spiritual death. The death that Adam died " in the day" he took of the fruit. It's always been spiritual with God.
> 
> When Christ was resurrected a living spirit..He was born again. Christ died in the flesh, but rose a spiritual being, just as we are when we are saved, spiritually born again....resurrected at Salvation.



If Christ died physically and spiritually for three days, would this be considered soul sleep? Can we assume the dead Old Testament saints died physically and spiritually until Christ's resurrection? Why did they resurrect physically if life after death is spiritual? 

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

These saints that were sleeping, were their spirits also asleep? It they weren't and they were somewhere else other than Heaven, this is proof that we can't go to Heaven without a resurrected body. Otherwise their spirits would have just went to Heaven after Christ's resurrection. 

Even if the last trump is in the future, It would appear we must sleep like Jesus did for three days. Death for Jesus was like sleep. Death for the Old Testament saints was like sleep.
I'm trying to figure out if we must all die and what is death. The death that Adam died. The death that Jesus tasted. Perhaps death ended with Jesus for believers. Maybe Jesus conquered death by dying physically and spiritually. Maybe now believers will live an everlasting life.

If this is true now, it wasn't true until Jesus returned in 70AD and the last trump was sounded because Paul said dead Christians would wait in the ground until Christ returned for them at the last trump. Well John said that too.    
                                                                                              There would be no transformation for the dead Christians or the live Christians into a spiritual body for their trip to Heaven with Jesus until the last trump. That means until the last trump the dead knew nothing.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I understand that the last trump may have sounded. I get that or at least I understand the belief. Now let's go from that point in time until now.
> I always visioned life as we know it and the earth would end. I understand the belief that maybe it doesn't.
> Take me from the last trump until now, according to scripture. Futurist are waiting for something. I don't know what for as most believe they will go to Heaven when they die. Still they are anxious for Christ to return. Now if they believed they wouldn't go to Heaven until Christ came for them, I could understand their anticipation.
> Preterist aren't waiting for Christ's return except for Christ to appear spiritually and take them home as a spirit.
> Is that all there is? We're just waiting to die a physical death  to be taken home spiritually?
> No future earth shattering kaboom? No physical resurrection? No dragons with seven heads? No seven angels with literal trumpets? No Jesus riding in on clouds?




Futurist have all kinds of wild different ideas of what they are waiting for. 

What were there first century Christians awaiting for Christ's return? Eternal life with Christ. Even the Christians of the first century died and was held awaiting His return. ( Those dead in Christ) were raised first, then those that were alive and Remained...were joined with them in the Lord Jesus...those that were alive and Remained could be comforted that they would not be separated from Christ upon death , but would be with Him.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Futurist have all kinds of wild different ideas of what they are waiting for.
> 
> What were there first century Christians awaiting for Christ's return? Eternal life with Christ. Even the Christians of the first century died and was held awaiting His return. ( Those dead in Christ) were raised first, then those that were alive and Remained...were joined with them in the Lord Jesus...those that were alive and Remained could be comforted that they would not be separated from Christ upon death , but would be with Him.



I thought the ones who were alive and remained at the last trump were also called up to join the transformed dead Christians?

 1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

Are you saying the "remained" didn't meet up with the others at that moment but had to wait and die first? What about Paul's mystery that we wouldn't all sleep but we would all be transformed. That's the mystery/secret, that we won't all die but we will all be transformed. The quick and the dead will be or were transfomed at the last trump.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought the ones who were alive and remained at the last trump were also called up to join the transformed dead Christians?
> 
> 1 Thessalonians 4:17
> "Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."
> 
> Are you saying the "remained" didn't meet up with the others at that moment but had to wait and die first? What about Paul's mystery that we wouldn't all sleep but we would all be transformed. That's the mystery/secret, that we won't all die but we will all be transformed. The quick and the dead will be or were transfomed at the last trump.



They were " caught up" and joined together with them in the spirit and in the body of Christ. When you were saved you were " caught up" in the spirit with them all part of the Kingdom and one Body of Christ.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> They were " caught up" and joined together with them in the spirit and in the body of Christ. When you were saved you were " caught up" in the spirit with them all part of the Kingdom and one Body of Christ.



That's the mystery Paul was describing? That the dead Christians would resurrect but live Christians would be "caught up" with them in "spirit" only while "remaining" on the earth to die a physical death? We are now "caught up" when we are saved? Even  though our spirits don't leave our bodies until we die a physical death? 
Even though I feel associated with Christ's spirit, I don't feel like I'm associated with the resurrected spirits. I feel like I must die a physical death and be resurrected in order to be "caught up." I don't see any of these resurrected spirits. Seeing means feeling. I feel disconnected from them. I only feel Christ's spirit. 

Would you say that all humans must die in order to get to Heaven? That as the last trump the living didn't ascend with Jesus because they weren't dead yet?

Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

2 Samuel 14:14
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But that is not what God desires; rather, he devises ways so that a banished person does not remain banished from him.

Must we all die in order to be resurrected and transformed into a new spiritual body? If so then the living at the last trump could not be transformed at that time because they weren't dead yet. Paul didn't say the living died and were transformed. Hebrews says we must all die once.

Dying appears to be a big part of God's plan in order for us to get rid of the earthly body made of dust and resurrect into a transformed or changed spiritual body.

Are there any more verses that show man must die in order to be transformed?


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## Artfuldodger

Now if we must die in order to be transformed then death is really only sleep. Death for the Christian is temporary and for the lost sinner, permanent. 
Death includes our spirit. The dead know nothing. We are sleeping. We will be awakened in the twinkling of an eye. We will all sleep until Christ returns for us. Our spirit is part of who we are.
Our bodies return to dust. 
Eternal life is a promise if we are saved. This starts after our sleep/death. Even Jesus has to sleep for three days. Jesus actually died and stayed dead for three days. He was really dead. Even though he eventually gained eternal life it took three days before it took affect. He had to be resurrected and transformed in order to gain everlasting life but for three days he didn't have it. He was dead. This is the way it will be for us.

Job 14:10 But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more.
Job 14:11 As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
Job 14:12 so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Eccl 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Eccl 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Eternal life is a promise that starts at "the last day."

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredation.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

2 Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


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## Artfuldodger

The resurrection of the dead is in the form of hope. Now if we must sleep until then this is an important part of Christianity. If we go to be with the Lord when our physical bodies returns to dust then what's the importance of a future resurrection? Why return for a spiritual body if we are already at peace in Heaven as a spirit?
If our spirit never sleeps, why the importance of a resurrection?

1 Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1 Cor 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1 Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1 Cor 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1 Cor 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1 Cor 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1 Cor 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

"at his coming" "our resurrection" "the last trumpet" "Jesus returns for us"


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## welderguy

Art. When you get a few minutes,read Eph.1 starting around verse 9 thru the end of the chapter.Paul unfolds here in a nutshell the "mystery" that has so many confused.He is speaking of an inheritence,which is eternal life.Now,although we are guaranteed that we will receive this inheritence,it is not in our full possession yet.We have been given an "earnest" of our inheritence for the time being while still in the flesh,which s the Holy Spirit.
If you understand the concept of earnest money then you know that it is not the full inheritance,only a small part of it.There's a whole lot more to come.
Paul says we are given the Spirit for earnest until the "redemption of the purchased possession".Jesus paid a very large price to purchase us for all eternity,but He has not gathered all that are in heaven and all that are on earth together yet.
I think where preterists get derailed is they get caught up in thinking the "earnest" is the whole inheritence.But it's only a part of it.


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Art. When you get a few minutes,read Eph.1 starting around verse 9 thru the end of the chapter.Paul unfolds here in a nutshell the "mystery" that has so many confused.He is speaking of an inheritence,which is eternal life.Now,although we are guaranteed that we will receive this inheritence,it is not in our full possession yet.We have been given an "earnest" of our inheritence for the time being while still in the flesh,which s the Holy Spirit.
> If you understand the concept of earnest money then you know that it is not the full inheritance,only a small part of it.There's a whole lot more to come.
> Paul says we are given the Spirit for earnest until the "redemption of the purchased possession".Jesus paid a very large price to purchase us for all eternity,but He has not gathered all that are in heaven and all that are on earth together yet.
> I think where preterists get derailed is they get caught up in thinking the "earnest" is the whole inheritence.But it's only a part of it.



OK I'll give it a read. I agree that preterist see us in the whole Kingdom. I see myself in the kingdom but not yet in the Kingdom. I can see the earnest money as the promise of everlasting life. I don't feel like it's all here yet. I don't feel like I'm just a spirit as I still have flesh. I see death as a new beginning. Preterist see resurrection happening the instant a Christian dies. I can see some of the things they see. Their line is straight and the Futurists line is tangled. Preterist die, are judged, and go straight to Heaven spiritually.

How would you define death and immortality? Is man mortal or immortal? Does death include the spirit? If not then doesn't that make man immortal? If Adam didn't die spiritually and Jesus didn't die spiritually, did they really die? Is death just a type of sleep? Eventually to be awakened at the return of Christ? Must every man die in order to be judged?


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## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> How would you define death and immortality? Is man mortal or immortal? Does death include the spirit? If not then doesn't that make man immortal? If Adam didn't die spiritually and Jesus didn't die spiritually, did they really die? Is death just a type of sleep? Eventually to be awakened at the return of Christ? Must every man die in order to be judged?




That's eight questions in one paragraph.


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## Artfuldodger

Maybe the Preterist read this;

Ephesians 2:1
Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.
(that's how they see death)

Ephesians 2:5
that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!)
(resurrection of the new spiritual life at salvation) 
(born again)
(inherited children of God)
(born of dust, raised in spirit)

Ephesians 2:6
For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.
(already there!)
(in the Kingdom)

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
(separate from Israel)
(separate from God)
(without promise)
(without hope)

Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
(grafted to the Jewish olive tree)
(becoming a child of God)
(receiving full inheritance)
(brought near God)


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe the Preterist read this;
> 
> Ephesians 2:1
> Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.
> (that's how they see death)
> 
> Ephesians 2:5
> that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!)
> (resurrection of the new spiritual life at salvation)
> (born again)
> (inherited children of God)
> (born of dust, raised in spirit)
> 
> Ephesians 2:6
> For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.
> (already there!)
> (in the Kingdom)
> 
> Ephesians 2:12
> remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
> (separate from Israel)
> (separate from God)
> (without promise)
> (without hope)
> 
> Ephesians 2:13
> But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
> (grafted to the Jewish olive tree)
> (becoming a child of God)
> (receiving full inheritance)
> (brought near God)



The first half of this chapter,Paul is speaking about being born again.
This is the earnest of our inheritance I mentioned earlier.

The second half of this chapter is concerning the Gentiles being brought in to the covenant of grace.

Neither of which are showing a full inheritance yet,but an earnest of the inheritance that is to come.
(vs.7 does allude to the full inheritance but specifies that it is in the future to come.)

Notice also the subtle correlation Paul makes about the "Gentile" nature(flesh) being reconciled with the "Jewish" nature(spirit),by the blood of Jesus.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe the Preterist read this;
> 
> Ephesians 2:1
> Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.
> (that's how they see death)
> 
> Ephesians 2:5
> that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!)
> (resurrection of the new spiritual life at salvation)
> (born again)
> (inherited children of God)
> (born of dust, raised in spirit)
> 
> Ephesians 2:6
> For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.
> (already there!)
> (in the Kingdom)
> 
> Ephesians 2:12
> remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
> (separate from Israel)
> (separate from God)
> (without promise)
> (without hope)
> 
> Ephesians 2:13
> But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
> (grafted to the Jewish olive tree)
> (becoming a child of God)
> (receiving full inheritance)
> (brought near God)



Very Good. All of scripture reads this way. Jesus is victorious, death has been defeated.

I've heard many preachers explain Salvation as first being dead in trespass and sin then being made alive and a new creature. Where they can't see the forest for the trees is Salvation is resurrection. 

 I believe in a Jesus that did what He said He would and did it when He said He would..notice sig line.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Very Good. All of scripture reads this way. Jesus is victorious, death has been defeated.
> 
> I've heard many preachers explain Salvation as first being dead in trespass and sin then being made alive and a new creature. Where they can't see the forest for the trees is Salvation is resurrection.
> 
> I believe in a Jesus that did what He said He would and did it when He said He would..notice sig line.



If it hasn't all been fulfilled then I've got to lot of explaining to do. I might start a thread on Immortality, Death & Resurrection as much of Christianity centers around death and resurrection. I've always believed humans were mortal. That they had to die both physically and spiritually and resurrected from this death. 
Death being sleep and resurrection being at the Last Trumpet call of God.

When Lazarus was awakened from his sleep of death did he recall his glorious trip to Heaven or Paradise? Then again this was before Jesus defeated death.

I Corinthians 15 is the "resurrection chapter" of the Bible. That might be a good place to start.  Then again to a Preterist this too has passed. The resurrection Paul is explaining has already happened. They did have to die in order to be resurrected. Now that death has been defeated man is immortal. Only lost sinners die.

Regardless I'd like to see some views on immortality, death, and most the importance of the resurrection if it is a future event. The Preterist view does explain it better. I'm just not there yet.


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## Farmer Black

isnt that pretty close to the catholic theory of Pergatory?


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## Artfuldodger

Farmer Black said:


> isnt that pretty close to the catholic theory of Pergatory?



The people in Purgatory are already saved. They just haven't purified enough to enter Heaven. There is no danger of them going to He!!. Through prayer/indulgences(works) and mediation through the Church the living can make up the difference. This will allow the dead to enter Heaven.

Instead of proxy baptism maybe it's proxy works.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I've heard many preachers explain Salvation as first being dead in trespass and sin then being made alive and a new creature. Where they can't see the forest for the trees is Salvation is resurrection.



When you say "salvation", are you referring to being born again?(regenerated by the Holy Spirit)?


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> When you say "salvation", are you referring to being born again?(regenerated by the Holy Spirit)?



Yes


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## hawglips

If salvation is not available after death, does God condemn all those billions since Adam that never had the opportunity to accept Jesus while in mortality?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Yes



OK.Then I agree with you that regeneration is a resurrection.That is done by the Holy Spirit when He makes us new creatures in Christ.This is the earnest of our inheritance.But don't you believe there will be a physical resurrection,aside from that one?(the full inheritance)


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## welderguy

hawglips said:


> If salvation is not available after death, does God condemn all those billions since Adam that never had the opportunity to accept Jesus while in mortality?



All that the Father hath given me SHALL come to me...

It's the effectual call of God.He never gets a busy signal.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> OK.Then I agree with you that regeneration is a resurrection.That is done by the Holy Spirit when He makes us new creatures in Christ.This is the earnest of our inheritance.But don't you believe there will be a physical resurrection,aside from that one?(the full inheritance)



Why would God be concerned with flesh that can't inherit the kingdom, flesh that goes back to dust, flesh that is the cause of our sinful desires?


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## hobbs27

hawglips said:


> If salvation is not available after death, does God condemn all those billions since Adam that never had the opportunity to accept Jesus while in mortality?



Those that died under the old covenant have been judged. They are either with Christ or faced the second death. There is no longer a grave, we die physically and face judgment. Those of us that are covered by the blood are of Christ and will remain with Christ, those that are not face the second death.


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## NE GA Pappy

Artfuldodger said:


> The people in Purgatory are already saved. They just haven't purified enough to enter Heaven. There is no danger of them going to He!!. Through prayer/indulgences(works) and mediation through the Church the living can make up the difference. This will allow the dead to enter Heaven.
> 
> Instead of proxy baptism maybe it's proxy works.



hmmm.... others working for my salvation. 

Sounds like a great socialist plan to me.  

...weren't saved enough to go to heaven.....   gee, just how saved is saved?  


some folks are really confused about redemption and grace if they believe that stuff.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Why would God be concerned with flesh that can't inherit the kingdom, flesh that goes back to dust, flesh that is the cause of our sinful desires?



I believe our vile bodies will be changed and "fashioned like unto His glorious body...".(Phill.3:21)

I don't know all the details about these glorious bodies because:
 "it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."(1 John 3:2)

I believe we will be able to talk and sing and shout and eat and drink and enjoy life forever with the Lord in perfectness without sin or anything that is contrary to love and joy and peace.It will be far better than you can imagine.

1 Corinthians 2:9

 "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

He said we would eat of the tree of life and drink of the Living waters.He also said there would be a marriage supper of the Lamb.Are all these things just figurative? Maybe.Maybe not. I tend to believe they are figurative language representing something even better.

Jesus also told the disciples this at the last supper:

Matthew 26:29

 "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."


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## Lead Poison

Migmack said:


> I believe one must accept Jesus to enter the Kingdom of God, however where in the bible does it say Jesus must be accepted prior to physical death?



It doesn't make sense that you can live anyway you want, even rejecting Jesus and living like satan, if you have an option to simply accept Jesus after you die! 

I truly believe one MUST sincerely accept Jesus BEFORE they die in order to be saved.


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## Artfuldodger

Lead Poison said:


> It doesn't make sense that you can live anyway you want, even rejecting Jesus and living like satan, if you have an option to simply accept Jesus after you die!
> 
> I truly believe one MUST sincerely accept Jesus BEFORE they die in order to be saved.



You mean before they die physically? If lost sinners still live spiritually after death, why can't they use their mental capacity to believe?
If the end hasn't come yet and death hasn't been destroyed?

 1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Again what is death? Is man immortal? If Jesus hasn't defeated death yet then we must all die. If the dead sleep until a future resurrection then they know nothing. They haven't been awakened. There is no hope for them to believe in Christ. They are waiting for the resurrection. They still have time.

If they didn't really die spiritually then they have the opportunity to use their spirit minds and accept Christ. They didn't really die. If dead people's spirits live on then they aren't really dead.

Now if death has been destroyed, that's another question. At that point we have everlasting life. Well some of us will. At the point of resurrection(past or present) is when death is defeated and everlasting life begins.

If the dead will not be raised, what point is there in people being baptized for those who are dead? Why do it unless the dead will someday rise again?


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I believe our vile bodies will be changed and "fashioned like unto His glorious body...".(Phill.3:21)
> 
> I don't know all the details about these glorious bodies because:
> "it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."(1 John 3:2)
> 
> I believe we will be able to talk and sing and shout and eat and drink and enjoy life forever with the Lord in perfectness without sin or anything that is contrary to love and joy and peace.It will be far better than you can imagine.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 2:9
> 
> "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."
> 
> He said we would eat of the tree of life and drink of the Living waters.He also said there would be a marriage supper of the Lamb.Are all these things just figurative? Maybe.Maybe not. I tend to believe they are figurative language representing something even better.
> 
> Jesus also told the disciples this at the last supper:
> 
> Matthew 26:29
> 
> "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."




<sup class="versenum">18 </sup>Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
 <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>Master,  Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind  him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and  raise up seed unto his brother.
 <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
 <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
 <sup class="versenum">22 </sup>And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
 <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
 <sup class="versenum">24 </sup>And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
 <sup class="versenum">25 </sup>For  when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given  in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
 <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>And  as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of  Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of  Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
 <sup class="versenum">27 </sup>He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

The Sadducee didn't believe in an afterlife, but they posed this question to Jesus to stump Him. They assumed the Pharisee taught that the resurrection would be physical as you do, they also assumed that the resurrection would take place in the Law. If the Law were standing at the resurrection then they would commit polygamy

Jesus said, When they "the 7 men and that woman"  Jesus said: shall not marry , nor be given in marriage.. They are physically dead, Paul explains in Romans 7:1-3 that upon death the marriage is annulled according the the law. In heaven there is no need for marriage since it's purpose is procreation which is no longer applicable. Moses law did not apply to heaven.

There is no physical body in Jesus account , after the resurrection of the dead ones.


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> All that the Father hath given me SHALL come to me...
> 
> It's the effectual call of God.He never gets a busy signal.



Ephesians 2:12-13
In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope.
13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

The Elected Gentiles before the blood of Christ was poured lived away from God and the promise. They lived in this world without God and without hope. 

One could read this as though there were some dead elected Gentiles before the blood poured, these dead elected Gentiles were brought near God by the blood of Jesus. 

If so then this means they received salvation after their physical deaths. When they lived on the earth they were far away from God and live with no hope or promise. Their calling/election happened after their physical deaths.

None of this really matters much if election is at the foundation of the world. God truly can have mercy on whom he will have mercy, even dead people who lived away form God and had no promise of salvation.

We never get a busy signal from God as long as death hasn't been defeated. As long as the resurrection is in the future, we aren't really dead. We can still receive that call/election.


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> OK.Then I agree with you that regeneration is a resurrection.That is done by the Holy Spirit when He makes us new creatures in Christ.This is the earnest of our inheritance.But don't you believe there will be a physical resurrection,aside from that one?(the full inheritance)



I can but only if that is when I'm actually born again as a spirit and if that is when eternal life actually begins. If that is when Christ will defeat death. Otherwise I'll feel like I'm still dead in the ground until the resurrection. I'll feel kinda cheated from my inheritance having to wait for my "full inheritance."  
                                                                                                                                 What will I be waiting for if my flesh returned to dust and my spirit is with God? That sounds like a "full inheritance" to me. That almost sounds like death was defeated and I have been resurrected. I don't need or want to return for a physical body if I was already enjoying a spiritual heaven.
If I'd already shed my flesh to the dust and taken on the appearance of the man who came down form Heaven. I'm assuming when Jesus came down from Heaven, it was as a spirit.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
> <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>Master,  Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind  him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and  raise up seed unto his brother.
> <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
> <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
> <sup class="versenum">22 </sup>And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
> <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
> <sup class="versenum">24 </sup>And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
> <sup class="versenum">25 </sup>For  when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given  in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
> <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>And  as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of  Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of  Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
> <sup class="versenum">27 </sup>He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
> 
> The Sadducee didn't believe in an afterlife, but they posed this question to Jesus to stump Him. They assumed the Pharisee taught that the resurrection would be physical as you do, they also assumed that the resurrection would take place in the Law. If the Law were standing at the resurrection then they would commit polygamy
> 
> Jesus said, When they "the 7 men and that woman"  Jesus said: shall not marry , nor be given in marriage.. They are physically dead, Paul explains in Romans 7:1-3 that upon death the marriage is annulled according the the law. In heaven there is no need for marriage since it's purpose is procreation which is no longer applicable. Moses law did not apply to heaven.
> 
> There is no physical body in Jesus account , after the resurrection of the dead ones.



I have to disagree.Just because Jesus showed that there will be no marriage in heaven,that doesn't mean we won't have physical characteristics like Jesus had.I believe the reason we will not be given in marriage in heaven is because we,as the bride of Jesus,will be one with Him,as our husband(Eph.5:31-32).
Another thing,if Jesus will be the head and we will be the body,then we would need to have the same physical and spiritual characteristics,don't you think? We will be one.


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## Lead Poison

Artfuldodger said:


> You mean before they die physically? If lost sinners still live spiritually after death, why can't they use their mental capacity to believe?
> If the end hasn't come yet and death hasn't been destroyed?
> 
> 1 Corinthians 15:26
> The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
> 
> Again what is death? Is man immortal? If Jesus hasn't defeated death yet then we must all die. If the dead sleep until a future resurrection then they know nothing. They haven't been awakened. There is no hope for them to believe in Christ. They are waiting for the resurrection. They still have time.
> 
> If they didn't really die spiritually then they have the opportunity to use their spirit minds and accept Christ. They didn't really die. If dead people's spirits live on then they aren't really dead.
> 
> Now if death has been destroyed, that's another question. At that point we have everlasting life. Well some of us will. At the point of resurrection(past or present) is when death is defeated and everlasting life begins.
> 
> If the dead will not be raised, what point is there in people being baptized for those who are dead? Why do it unless the dead will someday rise again?



Using your logic why wouldn't ALL simply save themselves like that? Respectfully, I don't understand your logic on this at all. It doesn't make sense. 

Again, I believe you have no choice after you physically die.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I have to disagree.Just because Jesus showed that there will be no marriage in heaven,that doesn't mean we won't have physical characteristics like Jesus had.I believe the reason we will not be given in marriage in heaven is because we,as the bride of Jesus,will be one with Him,as our husband(Eph.5:31-32).
> Another thing,if Jesus will be the head and we will be the body,then we would need to have the same physical and spiritual characteristics,don't you think? We will be one.



Jesus is the head of the church, we are the body..now.

1 Corinthians 15:46. Paul states natural first then spiritual. You are saying natural, then spiritual, then back to natural. Yes we will have to disagree, as I take the word of God over any system of belief.


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> I don't know all the details about these glorious bodies because:
> "it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."(1 John 3:2)



When one of the Elect die a physical death and their spirit goes to be with God, why can't they see and be like Jesus?

1 John 3:2 doesn't say anything about a glorious body, physical body, or spiritual body. It doesn't say we go to Heaven when we die. It actually says "when Christ appears, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." Therefore if this appearance is in the future, we will all have to wait to see Jesus and become like him. If I must die and my spirit goes to Heaven, it would be a pity to not see Jesus. I'd just as soon sleep in the ground and wait for his appearance. Then in the blink of an eye, I'll be awakened by God with no memory of my sleep, and see Jesus for the first time since my real death. Real death of my body and spirit. 
Then I can enjoy Heaven as I will become like Jesus and receive my "full inheritance." I can even drink wine. I think it'll be worth the wait. I won't know anyway about the wait because I'll be really dead. I don't even want to go to any kind of holding place to wait to be like Jesus. That would be agony. I'd rather be dead and know nothing.

2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord.
2 Cor 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2 Cor 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

See Paul is telling us we wait in the body. Until Christ appears and we become like him.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus is the head of the church, we are the body..now.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 15:46. Paul states natural first then spiritual. You are saying natural, then spiritual, then back to natural. Yes we will have to disagree, as I take the word of God over any system of belief.



I'm not making any distinction.I'm saying the church is the body now AND then.We are being sanctified just as we husbands sanctify our own wives,"that we may present them to ourselves without spot or wrinkle."


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## Artfuldodger

Lead Poison said:


> Using your logic why wouldn't ALL simply save themselves like that? Respectfully, I don't understand your logic on this at all. It doesn't make sense.
> 
> Again, I believe you have no choice after you physically die.



If we die physically and spiritually then we have no more thoughts. We will know nothing. We won't be able to make decisions. We will  have no free will. We can't make choices.

Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

This is what this Psalm is telling us. That after our physical and spiritual death, we will not know anything. It will be too late to decide. We will be dead. The dead don't make choices.

Now if death is just physical then we still have a living spirit. This spirit will be viable. It will have the will to hear of the Gospel. It can be called or elected. It can believe. It can put it's trust in God. 
To a living spirit, a body means nothing. To a living spirit, a body is a hindrance.  If one can see, hear, feel, make choices, praise God, or turn from God like Satan did as a spirit, then choosing God will be possible.

Now if Death has already been defeated then we won't have to wait in the ground. Judgment will happen the instant  our bodies return to dust and our spirits will not be given the opportunity to decide as there will be no holding place for the dead. If all is fulfilled then our death will be our resurrection. We'll die a physical death and resurrect an everlasting spiritual life. Lost sinners will die physically, judged, and die the second death of their spirit.
In this scenario there is no intermediate state of death.
With no intermediate state, there will be no time to decide after physical death.  

If man is truly mortal then death has to be both physical and spiritual. Otherwise we won't actually die. Our beings of soul/spirit will still be alive. 
If we die physically and spiritually and our resurrection is in the future, then our promise & hope of everlasting life will start at our resurrection. That's when Jesus will appear and we'll see him and become like him. 
That is the promise and as it is told in the Resurrection chapter of 1 Corinthians 15.


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## hobbs27

I want to demonstrate the timing of the resurrection and unity in scripture, I suggest reading more than what I present here, but this is just awesome truth.

Daniel 12 1-7.“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?”

7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

Notice resurrection and end would happen when the power of the Holy People is completely shattered...70ad



. 25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Notice You Yourselves! Jesus was speaking to the first century people not writing it down for you and me. They were to see the prophets...but how is this possible, the prophets were dead?


Revelation 11. 8And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

 Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem, there is no doubt Jerusalem is the city figuratively called Sodom.

Rev 11.18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So why were the first century people in Jerusalem going to see the prophets? Because they were going to be raised from the dead and given their reward, ( eternal life) this was the first resurrection. The first century people Jesus was speaking to in Luke 13 so this themselves. At the time the power of the Holy People was shattered ( 70 ad) .
 Matthew 24, 1 Corinthians 15, and 1 Thessalonians 4 are parallel to one another, one destruction, one resurrection, and one end of the old age.


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## hawglips

hobbs27 said:


> Those that died under the old covenant have been judged. They are either with Christ or faced the second death. There is no longer a grave, we die physically and face judgment. Those of us that are covered by the blood are of Christ and will remain with Christ, those that are not face the second death.



So the billions that never heard of Christ, plus those billions that may have heard his name but never had an opportunity to learn about him or accept him, have been or will be judged, and condemned - even though they never had a chance?


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## Artfuldodger

Did Lazarus of Bethany die saved or unsaved? Is it possible that he died unsaved but was "called" while he was dead and then resurrected?
Where did his spirit go? What was his account of his intermediated state?


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## hobbs27

hawglips said:


> So the billions that never heard of Christ, plus those billions that may have heard his name but never had an opportunity to learn about him or accept him, have been or will be judged, and condemned - even though they never had a chance?



I didn't say that, here's what scripture says.Romans 2
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

So, to answer your question. I really don't know about those out of covenant that are ignorant. Maybe they are as children and held to the same account???


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I didn't say that, here's what scripture says.Romans 2
> 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
> 
> 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
> 
> 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
> 
> 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
> 
> 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
> 
> So, to answer your question. I really don't know about those out of covenant that are ignorant. Maybe they are as children and held to the same account???



I would add this: anything done without faith is sin,no matter how "good" it might seem.(Rom.14:23)


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## welderguy

hawglips said:


> So the billions that never heard of Christ, plus those billions that may have heard his name but never had an opportunity to learn about him or accept him, have been or will be judged, and condemned - even though they never had a chance?



All of God's children,wherever they are,even if they are blind or deaf or mentally rtarded or unborn even,will be called by the Spirit and be made to know their Saviour.


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Did Lazarus of Bethany die saved or unsaved? Is it possible that he died unsaved but was "called" while he was dead and then resurrected?
> Where did his spirit go? What was his account of his intermediated state?



Lazerus was elect before the foundation of the world.
How do I know this?
John 11:5
"Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazerus."

If He ever loved us He will always love us.
Rom.8 tells us "nothing can separate us from the love of God",not even death.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Lazerus was elect before the foundation of the world.
> How do I know this?
> John 11:5
> "Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazerus."
> 
> If He ever loved us He will always love us.
> Rom.8 tells us "nothing can separate us from the love of God",not even death.



I'm glad you brought up Romans 8.
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul confirms that Christ had already made him free from sin and DEATH. If he was free from death why did he die? Because in Adam there was ( spiritual death) in Christ there is ( eternal spiritual life) Paul had it then and never faced the grave.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I'm glad you brought up Romans 8.
> 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
> 
> Paul confirms that Christ had already made him free from sin and DEATH. If he was free from death why did he die? Because in Adam there was ( spiritual death) in Christ there is ( eternal spiritual life) Paul had it then and never faced the grave.



I agree with everything you just said except the very last phrase.Paul did face the physical grave.
Now if you were meaning spiritual grave,then I agree.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I agree with everything you just said except the very last phrase.Paul did face the physical grave.
> Now if you were meaning spiritual grave,then I agree.



Where was Pauls consciousness upon his biological death , in the grave or with Christ, or somewhere else?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Where was Pauls consciousness upon his biological death , in the grave or with Christ, or somewhere else?



I thought that's what you meant.

Yes,Paul's spirit(consciousness) was with Christ.
His body went to the grave and back to dust.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I'm glad you brought up Romans 8.
> 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
> 
> Paul confirms that Christ had already made him free from sin and DEATH. If he was free from death why did he die? Because in Adam there was ( spiritual death) in Christ there is ( eternal spiritual life) Paul had it then and never faced the grave.



Do you agree that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus was given to Paul upon his regeneration?


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Do you agree that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus was given to Paul upon his regeneration?



Yes, do you agree that before he was regenerated that he was under the bondage of the law of sin and death?


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Lazerus was elect before the foundation of the world.
> How do I know this?
> John 11:5
> "Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazerus."
> 
> If He ever loved us He will always love us.
> Rom.8 tells us "nothing can separate us from the love of God",not even death.



Elected from the foundation but was it possible for the elect to have their effectual calling before the blood of Christ was shed?


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> All of God's children,wherever they are,even if they are blind or deaf or mentally rtarded or unborn even,will be called by the Spirit and be made to know their Saviour.



I understand election from the foundation. Is it possible for the elect to have their effectual calling while in the intermediate state of death? The time between their physical death and their resurrection?


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> I thought that's what you meant.
> 
> Yes,Paul's spirit(consciousness) was with Christ.
> His body went to the grave and back to dust.



Did Paul see Jesus as he really is and become like him or does he have to wait until Jesus returns?


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## Artfuldodger

When did this prophesy happen?

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

I'm assuming it's past as we now have "everlasting life."

If it's in the future then those multitudes Daniel was talking about won't have everlasting life until they awaken. 
Everlasting life is tied directly to our resurrection. The resurrection is an awakening.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of darnation.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

How can one go to be with Christ at their physical death if their judgement is a future event? How can the kingdom be now if it is a future event?
2 Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> When did this prophesy happen?
> 
> Daniel 12:2
> Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
> 
> I'm assuming it's past as we now have "everlasting life."
> 
> If it's in the future then those multitudes Daniel was talking about won't have everlasting life until they awaken.
> Everlasting life is tied directly to our resurrection. The resurrection is an awakening.



Verse 7 says 70 ad...When the power of the Holy people was shattered


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Verse 7 says 70 ad...When the power of the Holy people was shattered



What is your answer to the Futurists that will say "Yes it was but this whole 70AD event was just a "shadow" of the final last trumpet call? 

I guess one could say the Futurist view of one dying and going to the Lord at his physical death is a "shadow." That their first rebirth/resurrection was a shadow of their final resurrection that will happen on the last day.
That man is born once of water, dies of flesh and is reborn of spirit. Dies again of flesh and is again born of spirit. 

Comes back to the earth to be born/resurrected again of a type of glorified spiritual flesh and finally gets to see Jesus as he really is and become like him.

Makes one wonder why his first rebirth/resurrection wasn't good enough to make him reborn spiritually.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, do you agree that before he was regenerated that he was under the bondage of the law of sin and death?



Yes I do. As this text shows:

Rom.7:5-6

" For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

This happens when we are regenerated.We become alive where we were once dead.It's a spiritual resurrection.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Yes I do. As this text shows:
> 
> Rom.7:5-6
> 
> " For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
> But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."
> 
> This happens when we are regenerated.We become alive where we were once dead.It's a spiritual resurrection.



But, we are Gentiles and the law of (sin and death) is fulfilled. Moses law was the law of sin and death, Paul was born into it, and remained in it until he was saved by grace.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> What is your answer to the Futurists that will say "Yes it was but this whole 70AD event was just a "shadow" of the final last trumpet call?
> 
> I guess one could say the Futurist view of one dying and going to the Lord at his physical death is a "shadow." That their first rebirth/resurrection was a shadow of their final resurrection that will happen on the last day.
> That man is born once of water, dies of flesh and is reborn of spirit. Dies again of flesh and is again born of spirit.
> 
> Comes back to the earth to be born/resurrected again of a type of glorified spiritual flesh and finally gets to see Jesus as he really is and become like him.
> 
> Makes one wonder why his first rebirth/resurrection wasn't good enough to make him reborn spiritually.



All shadows and no scripture = a problem;  in my book.


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Elected from the foundation but was it possible for the elect to have their effectual calling before the blood of Christ was shed?



Yes.David was called on his mother's breast and was "made to hope".

Ps.22:9-10

" But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly."


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> But, we are Gentiles and the law of (sin and death) is fulfilled. Moses law was the law of sin and death, Paul was born into it, and remained in it until he was saved by grace.



No,technically,he didn't remain in it because it was secured at the cross by Jesus' blood.(Eph.2:16-17):

" And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off(Gentiles), and to them that were nigh(Jews)."

I say technically because it just wasn't revealed to Paul until his regeneration.That's the moment he received the Holy Spirit and faith.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> No,technically,he didn't remain in it because it was secured at the cross by Jesus' blood.(Eph.2:16-17):
> 
> " And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
> And came and preached peace to you which were afar off(Gentiles), and to them that were nigh(Jews)."
> 
> I say technically because it just wasn't revealed to Paul until his regeneration.That's the moment he received the Holy Spirit and faith.



If he technically wasn't in the law when Christ saved him then technically his salvation didn't free him from it.


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Makes one wonder why his first rebirth/resurrection wasn't good enough to make him reborn spiritually.



As I tried the other day to explain,the first "rebirth/resurrection",which is called regeneration,is the earnest of our inheritance(Eph.1).This is important because anytime earnest is put down on something ,it is done to secure the property until the full redemption/possession of it.
Jesus is coming back to take full possession of what He paid for.For the time being,we have the Spirit "whereby we are sealed until the day of redemption."(Eph.4:30)


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> If he technically wasn't in the law when Christ saved him then technically his salvation didn't free him from it.



You are correct.It was the blood of Jesus at the cross that saved him.And that was revealed to Paul at his regeneration.


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> I understand election from the foundation. Is it possible for the elect to have their effectual calling while in the intermediate state of death? The time between their physical death and their resurrection?



No.I don't find that anywhere in scripture.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> No.I don't find that anywhere in scripture.



Out of curiosity, do you find anywhere in scripture of old testament saints being "elected" or do you see anyone in scripture being " elected" outside of the first century church?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Out of curiosity, do you find anywhere in scripture of old testament saints being "elected" or do you see anyone in scripture being " elected" outside of the first century church?



Jacob and Esau come first to mind.

Rom.9:11:
" (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)"

notice the part about "according to election might stand,"

election applies to all God's children.Not just New Testament saints.It was done before the foundation of the world.(Eph.1:4)

" According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Yes I do. As this text shows:
> 
> Rom.7:5-6
> 
> " For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
> But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."
> 
> This happens when we are regenerated.We become alive where we were once dead.It's a spiritual resurrection.



If we are born again and have a spiritual resurrection, why do we need another one? I don't understand needing two resurrections. The Bible says we are born once of flesh and then reborn later as a spirit. Why do we need another rebirth/resurrection  of some type of a physical spirit body?
It just sounds like a repetition of our first death and rebirth and doesn't align with how Adam died and was separated from God spiritually. Our two rebirths/resurrections don't align with Christ's one rebirth/resurrection.
I still don't think we're all on the same sheet of music as to what Biblical death is.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Yes.David was called on his mother's breast and was "made to hope".
> 
> Ps.22:9-10
> 
> " But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
> I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly."



Are you implying that David's hope was election? 

How do we reconcile that before the blood of Christ Gentiles were separated from the election David had?

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

The Gentiles were without "hope/election" before Jesus.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> If we are born again and have a spiritual resurrection, why do we need another one? I don't understand needing two resurrections. The Bible says we are born once of flesh and then reborn later as a spirit. Why do we need another rebirth/resurrection  of some type of a physical spirit body?
> It just sounds like a repetition of our first death and rebirth and doesn't align with how Adam died and was separated from God spiritually. Our two rebirths/resurrections don't align with Christ's one rebirth/resurrection.
> I still don't think we're all on the same sheet of music as to what Biblical death is.



Did you read my post #129 ?


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> No.I don't find that anywhere in scripture.



I'm not doubting the it doesn't exist. Where is it in the scripture where an elected person had their effectual calling before being born?


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you implying that David's hope was election?
> 
> How do we reconcile that before the blood of Christ Gentiles were separated from the election David had?
> 
> Ephesians 2:12
> remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
> 
> The Gentiles were without "hope/election" before Jesus.



I'm implying that when God "made him to hope",it was the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit.

The Gentile nations were not the "chosen" nations of God.
They were seperated from God in that way,unlike Israel.
Paul uses that to illustrate how we were seperated from God "in our minds" before He brought us in through grace.

We know that being the "chosen" nation didn't mean every individual was elect,because scripture says "they are not all Israel who are of Israel".


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not doubting the it doesn't exist. Where is it in the scripture where an elected person had their effectual calling before being born?



Luke 1:13-15

 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."

He was filled with the Holy Spirit.That happens when we are regenerated.Non-elect people are not filled with the Holy Spirit.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> As I tried the other day to explain,the first "rebirth/resurrection",which is called regeneration,is the earnest of our inheritance(Eph.1).This is important because anytime earnest is put down on something ,it is done to secure the property until the full redemption/possession of it.
> Jesus is coming back to take full possession of what He paid for.For the time being,we have the Spirit "whereby we are sealed until the day of redemption."(Eph.4:30)



Is it possible that this earnest is the same as a promise? Could this be like the Old Testament saints and elected Gentiles before the blood of Christ? 
Although elected, their salvation was dependent on the future event of the blood of Christ.

If this is so then perhaps our everlasting life is such a promise/hope/ earnest. Something that is promised but not fully delivered until the future. Meaning that our promised everlasting life is definitely that of the elected but doesn't actually come into full possession until the resurrection.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Luke 1:13-15
> 
> But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
> And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
> For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."
> 
> He was filled with the Holy Spirit.That happens when we are regenerated.Non-elect people are not filled with the Holy Spirit.



His effectual calling was even before the Pentecost? 

Continuing to Luke 1:16;
He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God.

Does this mean that he brought some of the Elect to their effectual calling? Did they in turn receive the Holy Spirit that John was born with at this effectual calling that John lead them to?


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Jacob and Esau come first to mind.
> 
> Rom.9:11:
> " (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)"
> 
> notice the part about "according to election might stand,"
> 
> election applies to all God's children.Not just New Testament saints.It was done before the foundation of the world.(Eph.1:4)
> 
> " According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"



What about the effectual calling of the elected Gentiles before the Cross or the Pentecost?
When were they filled with the Holy Spirit/effectual calling?


----------



## Artfuldodger

I would assume there is really no way for the Elect to ever die. Christ has tasted death for them. They are born immortal, never having to die. Guaranteed to have an effectual calling before their physical death. 
My question of an effectual calling after physical death was in jest. When we really think about it, what is the big deal about physical death other than being the ending point of an effectual calling.
Beyond that it doesn't actually mean much. 
It's not even a part of the biblical concept of death. It wasn't the death Adam experienced when he sinned. It wasn't the death Jesus experienced when he took on Adam's death. It's not the death Jesus took on for the wages of sin. It's not the death Jesus took on for our death.

The wages of sin is death and escaping that death is the important one. The important rebirth/resurrection is the one where we shed our old flesh and take on the likeness of Jesus. Adam was from dust. Jesus was from Heaven. 
We only need to be born again once. We only have to go from flesh to spirit once.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Is it possible that this earnest is the same as a promise? Could this be like the Old Testament saints and elected Gentiles before the blood of Christ?
> Although elected, their salvation was dependent on the future event of the blood of Christ.
> 
> If this is so then perhaps our everlasting life is such a promise/hope/ earnest. Something that is promised but not fully delivered until the future. Meaning that our promised everlasting life is definitely that of the elected but doesn't actually come into full possession until the resurrection.



The earnest of our inheritance is more than a promise.It's the Holy Spirit living inside us.

Another important point is that it's not so much about our possession of eternal life,but rather His possession of His blood-bought redeemed.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> His effectual calling was even before the Pentecost?
> 
> Continuing to Luke 1:16;
> He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God.
> 
> Does this mean that he brought some of the Elect to their effectual calling? Did they in turn receive the Holy Spirit that John was born with at this effectual calling that John lead them to?



Yes.it was before pentecost.And before Jesus' death I would add.

The effectual calling is immediate..meaning it needs no other medium.It's done strictly by the Holy Spirit.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> What about the effectual calling of the elected Gentiles before the Cross or the Pentecost?
> When were they filled with the Holy Spirit/effectual calling?



Rahab the Canaanite harlot and Ruth the Moabitis come to mind.


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## hobbs27

The Spirit could not dwell in man before Christ atoned us. Christ covers our sins that the Spirit may dwell within.

Question: If all Gods people were elected to eternal life from the creation of the world, what value is the blood of Christ?


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> The Spirit could not dwell in man before Christ atoned us. Christ covers our sins that the Spirit may dwell within.
> 
> Question: If all Gods people were elected to eternal life from the creation of the world, what value is the blood of Christ?


Eternal.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> The Spirit could not dwell in man before Christ atoned us. Christ covers our sins that the Spirit may dwell within.
> 
> Question: If all Gods people were elected to eternal life from the creation of the world, what value is the blood of Christ?



Heb.11:13 for your first point.

Lev.17:11 for your question.

Sorry I can't elaborate more on each.Real busy rt now.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> I'm implying that when God "made him to hope",it was the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> The Gentile nations were not the "chosen" nations of God.
> They were seperated from God in that way,unlike Israel.
> Paul uses that to illustrate how we were seperated from God "in our minds" before He brought us in through grace.
> 
> We know that being the "chosen" nation didn't mean every individual was elect,because scripture says "they are not all Israel who are of Israel".



When we read Paul's letter to the Ephesians or one of the other Churches, how do we determine who it affects?
When Paul addresses the Ephesians in 2:12;

remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. Was there ever a time the Gentiles were 

How do we determine how it affects us in relation to Israel and the Gentiles? Is there some type of shadow that changes Israel to Church and Gentiles to flesh?
Does this separation that Gentiles had before the blood of Christ convert to people today? People without hope and without God?
Was there ever a time that the Gentiles were without hope and without God in the world?
Was there ever a time when the Gentiles were not grafted into the hope and promise that Israel had?


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> When we read Paul's letter to the Ephesians or one of the other Churches, how do we determine who it affects?
> When Paul addresses the Ephesians in 2:12;
> 
> remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. Was there ever a time the Gentiles were
> 
> How do we determine how it affects us in relation to Israel and the Gentiles? Is there some type of shadow that changes Israel to Church and Gentiles to flesh?
> Does this separation that Gentiles had before the blood of Christ convert to people today? People without hope and without God?
> Was there ever a time that the Gentiles were without hope and without God in the world?
> Was there ever a time when the Gentiles were not grafted into the hope and promise that Israel had?



Galations 3:28 should help you understand.


----------



## hobbs27

Art, there's a whole series on this topic. This is #19 and I think Don brings up some relevant points and scripture to the subject at hand.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Galations 3:28 should help you understand.



Wow, that's a powerful chapter. It appears the Law was never what I thought it was. Salvation has always been about faith & belief.
Verse 3:6 shows that Abraham received salvation from faith in God. He believed in the future promise. The biblical timeline is important historically but not important as it pertains to salvation.

Verse 3:8
What's more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. 

It appears the Law was never righteous. It has always been a curse. It never got anyone anywhere. No dispensations. No Old Testament this way vs. New Testament this way. No overlapping of the two covenants. No time that the Gentiles were denied salvation. No time dead saints had to wait for release. No Purgatory. No waiting on a future resurrection. The period of God's grace has always been. Salvation has always been based on faith and belief. No waiting on the promise. 

Galatians 3:11
Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith."

Yet we have people who think the Law is what makes us righteous, especially the Christians on the Political forum.
Paul said "then let them live by it." We know what that will get them.
The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from.

Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

The Gentiles have never been separated from God if they believed in the promise. The actual time of the event of Jesus shedding blood wasn't important. It wasn't like everything before the cross was Law and everything after the cross was Grace. It has always been faith and belief in the promise. God in his grace gave the promise to Abraham. Abraham believed.

Galatians 3:22
But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God's promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ.

Salvation is based on having a belief in what was promised, not the actual time of the blood shed event. It wasn't the timing of the event that changed anything but the actual belief in the event.
Before the Cross event, man was under custody of the Law which was a tutor until the promise was revealed or came to pass.
If you believe, you are an heir to the promise.

Folks, remember this when you start spoutin' off law keeping;

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Salvation has always been about faith & belief.



Lock in on that compass heading brother, it will take you a long way.


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## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Lock in on that compass heading brother, it will take you a long way.



Believe me, I'm trying but my mind keeps wandering back to verses like;

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Romans 11:17
If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

It like I'm almost there when my mind keeps returning to the mystery of the grafting. It sounds like they were excluded, without hope and without God. 
Romans 11:17 says "and now share in the nourishing sap" as though they didn't before. 

If election from the foundation is true, then I can't ever see a time of any of the Elect  being separated from God and without hope, Gentile or Jew. Separation maybe but exclusion never. Without hope? How was that possible?

If all of this Jew and Gentile separation to include Jesus being the king of the Jews isn't important then why did God base his plan on this separation of Jews and Gentiles?
Why was the mystery only revealed after Christ's death that the Gentiles would finally be grafted in, NOW sharing the nourishing sap? Again before the cross being separated from God and without hope.

Now if it was just the mystery that was hidden for all of those years I understand, but if it was the actual grafting in that was hidden, I don't understand.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Art, there's a whole series on this topic. This is #19 and I think Don brings up some relevant points and scripture to the subject at hand.



I've been reading Galatians 3 but I'll try to get to this soon. I'm still having trouble with Paul. He reminds me of me.
Galatians 3 talks about faith of the promise.

Romans 16:26
but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith-

Could the Gentiles not come to the obedience that comes from faith before the mystery was revealed or could they and it was just the mystery that they could that was revealed?

thanks for the link?


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## welderguy

Amen Art!! Don't you love it when God pulls the scales off our eyes?

The entire Old Testament is pointing forward to the cross and the atonement of all the elect through Jesus' blood.
None of the animal sacrifices of the law were sufficient to take the sins away,but simply pointed to the cross.

The passover supper that Moses and the Hebrew children partook with the blood on the doorposts,was symbolic of Jesus' atonement.

You're right.It's always been about faith and belief,but we need to specify belief in what? Jesus Christ.(the same yesterday,today and forever!)


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> It appears the Law was never righteous.
> 
> 
> . No Old Testament this way vs. New Testament this way. No overlapping of the two covenants.
> 
> The period of God's grace has always been Salvation has always been based on faith and belief. No waiting on the promise..



Romans 7:12
Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good

You just read Galations three and deny that the language puts the law in present tense as still being in effect? Why were they reflecting on the law as a current entity and not of something in the past?

Gods grace is Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected. No man had been to heaven but the Son of Man. There most certainly is a timing issue and it was a glorious day in that all the dead of the old covenant had awaited. They died in the hope of a coming Messiah, we live in what they hoped for.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I've been reading Galatians 3 but I'll try to get to this soon. I'm still having trouble with Paul. He reminds me of me.
> Galatians 3 talks about faith of the promise.
> 
> Romans 16:26
> but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith-
> 
> Could the Gentiles not come to the obedience that comes from faith before the mystery was revealed or could they and it was just the mystery that they could that was revealed?
> 
> thanks for the link?



Gentiles could and did have faith. Israel was a chosen ( elected) Nation from the beginning of creation. Follow the Genealogy of Seth down. All those men living outrageous life spans were Abraham's forefathers.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Romans 7:12
> Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good
> 
> You just read Galations three and deny that the language puts the law in present tense as still being in effect? Why were they reflecting on the law as a current entity and not of something in the past?
> 
> Gods grace is Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected. No man had been to heaven but the Son of Man. There most certainly is a timing issue and it was a glorious day in that all the dead of the old covenant had awaited. They died in the hope of a coming Messiah, we live in what they hoped for.



The law indeed was good.Although,there was a huge problem .No one could keep it.Therefore the law condemns and kills.That's why we need grace.Grace came by way of the cross.The new covenant began at the death of Jesus.

The day of Pentecost is a clear example of the working of thw new covenant of grace.The Holy Spirit was poured out on people of different nationalities,not just the Jews.Many heard the gospel of grace preached for the first time in their own language,and were convicted.Others who put their trust in the law were very angry.
This event was prophecied to happen in Joel 2:28.
BTW,all these things took place before 70AD.

I understand the practice of the law continued,but it was preached against from this time forth because it was done away with at the cross.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I understand the practice of the law continued,but it was preached against from this time forth because it was done away with at the cross.



Per Matthew 5:18, did heaven and earth pass away at the cross?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Per Matthew 5:18, did heaven and earth pass away at the cross?



Notice I said "the practice of the law",meaning the animal sacrifice.Not the entire law.I should have clarified better.

The animal sacrifice was no longer needed because Jesus became the sacrificial lamb for His people.

Heaven and earth are still intact.One day He will fold them up like a garment.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Notice I said "the practice of the law",meaning the animal sacrifice.Not the entire law.I should have clarified better.
> 
> The animal sacrifice was no longer needed because Jesus became the sacrificial lamb for His people.
> 
> Heaven and earth are still intact.One day He will fold them up like a garment.



That doesn't get you out of Matthew 5:18..If any of the Law has been fulfilled then all of the Law is fulfilled, if any of the Law has been fulfilled then heaven and earth passed.


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## Artfuldodger

What, then, was the purpose of the law? If salvation has always been based on the belief of the promise? 
Was it just to give us a standard to measure sin? Kinda like needing evil as a way to measure goodness. 

I must look at Galatians 3 again. I sure hope Paul turns out to be a real prophet.
His epistles are a big part of the Bible. I sure hope those biblical scholars that included his letters knew what they were doing.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> That doesn't get you out of Matthew 5:18..If any of the Law has been fulfilled then all of the Law is fulfilled, if any of the Law has been fulfilled then heaven and earth passed.



According to Rom.8:3-4,because of what Christ has already done,the righteousness of the law is being fulfilled in us.Remember,His laws are now being written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.It's an on-going work that is being worked in the hearts of each of the elect.This work of grace will continue until every last one of His children have been called.Then all will be fulfilled and then will come the end.(heaven and earth will be done away with)
1 Cor:15:24
"Then cometh the end when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,even the Father;and shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> According to Rom.8:3-4,because of what Christ has already done,the righteousness of the law is being fulfilled in us.Remember,His laws are now being written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.It's an on-going work that is being worked in the hearts of each of the elect.This work of grace will continue until every last one of His children have been called.Then all will be fulfilled and then will come the end.(heaven and earth will be done away with)
> 1 Cor:15:24
> "Then cometh the end when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,even the Father;and shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."




Oh my. Ephesians 3:20-21 says there is no end to the world.

Look at it this way, when Adam an Eve were in the garden they dwelled in the presence of God. Then they sinned, were cast out of the garden ( where they dwelled with God), and were separated from God.

 There was a barrier placed between heaven and earth. The veil of the temple later on symbolized that barrier. The Temple was symbolic as heaven ( holiest place) Jerusalem was symbolic of earth . The entire Jewish economy made up ( heaven and earth).

Through Christ' atonement we now have an indwelling of the Spirit..we once again ( saved folks) dwell with God. The old temple and people have passed away (70ad), all is fulfilled. The new heaven and earth has come, its spiritual and not physical. 

Time and time again in Christ' ministry to the lost sheep of Israel He would teach in a spiritual sense, and they would misunderstand in a physical sense. This still goes on today.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> That doesn't get you out of Matthew 5:18..If any of the Law has been fulfilled then all of the Law is fulfilled, if any of the Law has been fulfilled then heaven and earth passed.



I did a quick look at Strong's on "heaven and earth".

heaven:
Word: ouranoj

Pronounce: oo-ran-os'

Strongs Number: G3772

Orig: perhaps from the same as 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):--air, heaven(-ly), sky. G3735

Use: TDNT-5:497,736 Noun Masculine

Heb Strong: H410 H776 H4791 H7549 H7834 H8064

1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it 
1a) the universe, the world 
1b) the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced 
1c) the sidereal or starry heavens 
2) the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings


earth:
Word: gh

Pronounce: ghay

Strongs Number: G1093

Orig: contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application):--country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world.

Use: TDNT-1:677,116 Noun Feminine

Heb Strong: H127 H178 H376 H776 H841 H953 H1250 H1366 H1471 H1516 H1870 H2022 H2465 H2724 H3004 H4725 H5892 H5971 H6010 H6083 H6160 H6850 H7704 H8397

1) arable land 
2) the ground, the earth as a standing place 
3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water 
4) the earth as a whole 
4a) the earth as opposed to the heavens 
4b) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals 
5) a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region


How can anyone think either one of these have passed already?


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> How can anyone think either one of these have passed already?



1. Because scripture Matthew 5:18 demands it.

2. In all of your definition from strongs I didnt see a heaven and earth that could listen to and respond to God.

Isaiah 1:2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> 1. Because scripture Matthew 5:18 demands it.
> 
> 2. In all of your definition from strongs I didnt see a heaven and earth that could listen to and respond to God.
> 
> Isaiah 1:2
> Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.




1.The law has not passed  but is being fulfilled within us,therefore the heavens(sky) and earth(ground) have not passed away.

2.From Strong's again in reference to "heavens" and "earth" in Isaiah 1:2:

heavens

Word: MINY

Pronounce: shaw-mah'-yim

Strong: H8064

Orig: dual of an unused singular shameh \i shaw-meh'\i0\plain\f3\fs21\cf23 ; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve):--air, X astrologer, heaven(-s).

Use: TWOT-2407a Noun Masculine

Grk Strong: G798 G2032 G2246 G3770 G3772

1) heaven, heavens, sky 
1a) visible heavens, sky 
1a1) as abode of the stars 
1a2) as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc 
1b) Heaven (as the abode of God)



earth

Word: UX@

Pronounce: eh'-rets

Strong: H776

Orig: from an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land):--X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X natins, way, + wilderness, world.

Use: TWOT-167 Noun Feminine

Grk Strong: G66 G68 G444 G1093 G1475 G1484 G1855 G2730 G3598 G3611 G3624 G3625 G3725 G3772 G4098 G5561

1) land, earth
1a) earth 
1a1) whole earth (as opposed to a part) 
1a2) earth (as opposed to heaven) 
1a3) earth (inhabitants) 
1b) land 
1b1) country, territory 
1b2) district, region 
1b3) tribal territory 
1b4) piece of ground 
1b5) land of Canaan, Israel 
1b6) inhabitants of land 
1b7) Sheol, land without return, (under) world 
1b8) city (-state) 
1c) ground, surface of the earth 
1c1) ground 
1c2) soil 
1d) (in phrases) 
1d1) people of the land 
1d2) space or distance of country (in measurements of distance) 
1d3) level or plain country 
1d4) land of the living 
1d5) end(s) of the earth 
1e) (almost wholly late in usage) 
1e1) lands, countries 
1e1a) often in contrast to Canaan


I'm not trying to be obnoxious but I just don't see how you can assign any other definition to heaven and earth in these verses other than sky and land.

Also as a side note,figurative language or not,if God speaks to the heavens and earth,you better believe they are going to listen and respond.


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## hummerpoo

“The Law” has not passed away, not one jot or one tittle.
“The Law” is spiritual (Rm 7)
The offerings are visible

Jer. 7:
22 For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.’

1 Sam. 15:
22 Samuel said,
“Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
As in obeying the voice of the LORD?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.

Isa. 1
11 “What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?”
Says the LORD.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle;
And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
12 “When you come to appear before Me,
Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
13 “Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
Incense is an abomination to Me.
New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
14 “I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.

Amos 5:
21 “I hate, I reject your festivals,
Nor do I [o]delight in your solemn assemblies.
22 “Even though you offer up to Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them;
And I will not even look at the peace offerings of your fatlings.
23 “Take away from Me the noise of your songs;
I will not even listen to the sound of your harps.
24 “But let justice roll down like waters
And righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.


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## hobbs27

Romans 7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 


It's not as hard as y'all make it. During the time Romans was written that law( Torah) was in tact. Man in the Law could die to it and remarry through Christ. 
 But the Law passed, Died itself when Christ judged Israel in 70 ad and the temple was destroyed. That was heaven and earth passing away.  The conduit ( so to speak) between heaven and earth.

God was married to Israel, divorced her ( so to speak) through death of her and remarried her as the Kingdom.

There is one Covenant, no Torah,but grace abounds.


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## gemcgrew

I am not under the law in any sense.


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## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> I am not under the law in any sense.




He put them into my heart and wrote them in my mind.


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## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> I am not under the law in any sense.



No one is. It's fulfilled.


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## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> No one is. It's fulfilled.


Unbelievers are.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Unbelievers are.



Is Romans 7:1 related to this?

Do you not know, brothers and sisters--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives?

"only as long as that person lives"

Does this mean as long as that person lives in the flesh? Is living in the flesh only as long as our rebirth as a spirit?


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## hobbs27

Non believers are under no Covenant. There is only one, the one body of Christ.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Is Romans 7:1 related to this?
> 
> Do you not know, brothers and sisters--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives?
> 
> "only as long as that person lives"
> 
> Does this mean as long as that person lives in the flesh?



Yes.



> Is living in the flesh only as long as our rebirth as a spirit?



No idea what this means.


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> Is Romans 7:1 related to this?
> 
> Do you not know, brothers and sisters--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives?
> 
> "only as long as that person lives"
> 
> Does this mean as long as that person lives in the flesh? Is living in the flesh only as long as our rebirth as a spirit?



Do you mean..."we live in the flesh to the point of our rebirth of Spirit?" 

as in:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
??


----------



## Artfuldodger

I'm trying to define "living" in Romans 7:1.
As Israel was asking above do you mean..."we live in the flesh to the point of our rebirth of Spirit?"
Which is better than me asking "Is living in the flesh only as long as our rebirth as a spirit?"

When we are born again our new life as a spirit starts and our old life as flesh ends. Could this be what Paul is saying otherwise "as long as we are living" might be when we die physically/biologically.
Christians never die so I don't think Paul was alluding that we'll be under the Law in Heaven or until our physical death.
Now if it is when we are reborn, why isn't that our resurrection?
It's like most Christians want three different lives and births with two resurrections. 
First born of water then to die of that death and to be born of spirit which is the first resurrection. Then to die again of flesh and either sleep in the ground or wait somewhere else for our second rebirth/resurrection. 
That's like one birth and two rebirths, and two deaths/resurrections.
I'm not sure scripture has that many rebirths, deaths, and resurrections.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Non believers are under no Covenant. There is only one, the one body of Christ.



Yes.

Eph.2:16
" And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"

Notice it was done by the cross,not the destruction of the temple.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Yes.
> 
> Eph.2:16
> " And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"
> 
> Notice it was done by the cross,not the destruction of the temple.



 I have never denied that. At the time this is written Jews under the Law and Gentiles were coming together in one spirit and one body of Christ. For those Jews that died to the law through the Cross, the law {Torah} was abolished, but there were still some coming in and they were still under the Law, until the temple was destroyed and the entire law died.

 Animal sacrifice was dependent on the Temple. Levite Genealogy was dependent upon the priesthood...Both went up in flames in 70 ad. There could never be a legitimate return to Torah, and no man was born into it since.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> I have never denied that. At the time this is written Jews under the Law and Gentiles were coming together in one spirit and one body of Christ. For those Jews that died to the law through the Cross, the law {Torah} was abolished, but there were still some coming in and they were still under the Law, until the temple was destroyed and the entire law died.
> 
> Animal sacrifice was dependent on the Temple. Levite Genealogy was dependent upon the priesthood...Both went up in flames in 70 ad. There could never be a legitimate return to Torah, and no man was born into it since.



You make a good point or two. But I'm not certain that Jews would agree. Jews have been without the temple before its last destruction--especially when they were in exile. 

Many Jews have a pot for meat and one for fish, as per the law of the Torah, to this day.

The breaking of bread in exile was a substitute for no access to temple worship I think.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> ..... but there were still some coming in and they were still under the Law, until the temple was destroyed and the entire law died.



At the time Ephesians was written,Paul was preaching against being under the Mosaic law.He's telling them this:

Eph.2:15
" Having ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the LAW of COMMANDMENTS contained in ORDINANCES..."

How can you keep saying they were still under the law?

I understand some of the Jews continued to trust in the law,and as Gordon pointed out,even still do today.But what is important to understand is that the law officially was abolished by the death of Christ,not the destruction of the temple.


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> You make a good point or two. But I'm not certain that Jews would agree. Jews have been without the temple before its last destruction--especially when they were in exile.
> 
> Many Jews have a pot for meat and one for fish, as per the law of the Torah, to this day.
> 
> The breaking of bread in exile was a substitute for no access to temple worship I think.



Ahh yes, but the world was without a Holy temple. God has built another temple and it is within man. Any temple worship in abscencia is a farce because His temple stands in man.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> At the time Ephesians was written,Paul was preaching against being under the Mosaic law.He's telling them this:
> 
> Eph.2:15
> " Having ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the LAW of COMMANDMENTS contained in ORDINANCES..."
> 
> How can you keep saying they were still under the law?
> 
> I understand some of the Jews continued to trust in the law,and as Gordon pointed out,even still do today.But what is important to understand is that the law officially was abolished by the death of Christ,not the destruction of the temple.



 Look at Paul for example. Preached the Gospel..yet practiced the Law. If anyone did this today we would think they were nuts...well actually there are the so called Messianic Jews.  Something changed after Paul's ministry..The answer is in Revelation.


When Paul speaks against circumcision, he speaks against circumcision _for Gentiles_ (Letter to the Galatians). When Paul speaks against sacrifice, he speaks against sacrifices _to Gentile gods_ (1Cor 10).  When Paul speaks of “justification” apart from the Law, he speaks to  and for Gentiles (Letter to the Galatians). When Paul speaks about “the  law of sin” and death, he contrasts it specifically with the Law of God,  by which he means the Torah (Rom 7:22-24). Only the Jewish Scriptures are God’s “oracles” (Rom 3:2); only Israel’s is a “living and true God” (1Thess 1:9).  His “kindred according to the flesh” are God’s “children”; the temple,  the covenants, the Law, and the sacrifices (weakly translated as  “worship” in the New Revised Standard Version) are all marks of the  Jewish people’s God-given special status (Rom 9:3-5). All of these elements constitute Torah.
 Paul does insist that Gentiles-in-Christ do not need to “become” Jews  (that is, for men, to circumcise, as he says in his letter to the  Galatians). But he also insists that baptized Gentiles _must_ assume a singularly Jewish public behavior: they must not worship pagan gods any longer. Depending on the point he pursues, in brief, Paul says _both_ that Gentiles are “free” from the Law _and_ that they must live according to its requirements (see especially Rom 13:8-10). 

http://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/people/related-articles/paul-and-judaism.aspx


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Look at Paul for example. Preached the Gospel..yet practiced the Law. If anyone did this today we would think they were nuts...well actually there are the so called Messianic Jews.  Something changed after Paul's ministry..The answer is in Revelation.
> 
> 
> When Paul speaks against circumcision, he speaks against circumcision _for Gentiles_ (Letter to the Galatians). When Paul speaks against sacrifice, he speaks against sacrifices _to Gentile gods_ (1Cor 10).  When Paul speaks of “justification” apart from the Law, he speaks to  and for Gentiles (Letter to the Galatians). When Paul speaks about “the  law of sin” and death, he contrasts it specifically with the Law of God,  by which he means the Torah (Rom 7:22-24). Only the Jewish Scriptures are God’s “oracles” (Rom 3:2); only Israel’s is a “living and true God” (1Thess 1:9).  His “kindred according to the flesh” are God’s “children”; the temple,  the covenants, the Law, and the sacrifices (weakly translated as  “worship” in the New Revised Standard Version) are all marks of the  Jewish people’s God-given special status (Rom 9:3-5). All of these elements constitute Torah.
> Paul does insist that Gentiles-in-Christ do not need to “become” Jews  (that is, for men, to circumcise, as he says in his letter to the  Galatians). But he also insists that baptized Gentiles _must_ assume a singularly Jewish public behavior: they must not worship pagan gods any longer. Depending on the point he pursues, in brief, Paul says _both_ that Gentiles are “free” from the Law _and_ that they must live according to its requirements (see especially Rom 13:8-10).
> 
> http://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/people/related-articles/paul-and-judaism.aspx



Brother,I strongly urge you to spend more time in God's word and far less time on these strange websites.Not everything you read aligns with the truth of the Word.I don't say that to hurt you or embarrass you,but out of love and concern.

You and I disagree on many very important points of doctrine,but I believe we still can agree that Jesus is our Saviour,and for that reason,I love you as my brother.Pray for me and I will do the same for you.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Brother,I strongly urge you to spend more time in God's word and far less time on these strange websites.Not everything you read aligns with the truth of the Word.I don't say that to hurt you or embarrass you,but out of love and concern.
> 
> You and I disagree on many very important points of doctrine,but I believe we still can agree that Jesus is our Saviour,and for that reason,I love you as my brother.Pray for me and I will do the same for you.



 Trust me, you have not hurt me or embarrassed me. I do spend a lot of time in the book..not as much as I should, but who can say they do? 
 This site I have never gone to before but found in a search as I was looking for an easy cut and paste. I read what it had to say and found it to align with what I already know to be true through scripture. I have pointed out many times in here that Paul continued to practice the Law... The book says so, Paul's words in Acts 24


11Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship.  12And  they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither  raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:
  13Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
  14But  this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so  worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written  in the law and in the prophets:


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Trust me, you have not hurt me or embarrassed me. I do spend a lot of time in the book..not as much as I should, but who can say they do?
> This site I have never gone to before but found in a search as I was looking for an easy cut and paste. I read what it had to say and found it to align with what I already know to be true through scripture. I have pointed out many times in here that Paul continued to practice the Law... The book says so, Paul's words in Acts 24
> 
> 
> 11Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship.  12And  they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither  raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:
> 13Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
> 14But  this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so  worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written  in the law and in the prophets:



Acts 15

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,


Paul was in accord here with the other brethren concerning circumcision and keeping of the law.

Acts 24 says nothing about Paul going back to the law,rather the contention was over him preaching about the resurrection.

Paul,later even disputed with and rebuked Peter for turning back to the law hypocritically.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Acts 15
> 
> 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
> 
> 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
> 
> 
> Paul was in accord here with the other brethren concerning circumcision and keeping of the law.
> 
> Acts 24 says nothing about Paul going back to the law,rather the contention was over him preaching about the resurrection.
> 
> Paul,later even disputed with and rebuked Peter for turning back to the law hypocritically.



CH.15 is about Gentile circumcision.

Of course CH 24 says nothing about Paul returning to the Law. He never left it, he was a Jew.
 Do you not see the mending of one church in Christ..The Israelites first and then the Gentile? The Israelites the root, deny the root you deny the fruit.
This is the only hermeneutic that fits Matthew 5:18. The Law was in tact till heaven and earth ( The Jewish economy) passed.


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> This is the only hermeneutic that fits Matthew 5:18.



No, the hermeneutic that Welder has been explaining to you ▬ the passing of the offerings, which are not The Law ▬ fits Mat. 5:18 perfectly.  It's the same hermeneutic that I explained a few months ago.  It even fits with the destruction of the temple.  It fits perfectly with the entirety of Scripture.  The only thing that I no of that it doesn't fit is your chosen theology.

Welder gave good advice.

Thank you for your patience.
I'm out of here.
God Bless


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## hobbs27

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Matthew 5:18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

No links, no comments on the subject.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
> 
> Matthew 5:18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
> 
> No links, no comments on the subject.



Do you see the transition between vs.24 and 25(Luke 21)?
key in on "until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled"

I believe He's making a parallel between the destruction of Jerusalem(by the Romans) and the destruction of the world by Him.

Same way in Matt.24.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Do you see the transition between vs.24 and 25(Luke 21)?
> key in on "until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled"
> 
> I believe He's making a parallel between the destruction of Jerusalem(by the Romans) and the destruction of the world by Him.
> 
> Same way in Matt.24.



Maybe you can point it out, I fail to see it in light of the scripture and history below. Also, I know of no where in scripture that says God will destroy the Cosmos ( World) only the Aion ( Age) also translated as ( world) in some versions.

r. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 


Revelation 11:But the court which is outside the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The war by the Romans was 42 months. From spring of 67 to August of 70. God is great!


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## BAR308

Migmack said:


> I believe one must accept Jesus to enter the Kingdom of God, however where in the bible does it say Jesus must be accepted prior to physical death?



where does it say ANYWHERE...  that we "accept" Jesus for salvation....??? oh i just looked.. and its NOwhere.

we dont accept Him... He accepts us... the church has it backwards. we are to hear the Word, believe it, and LIVE IT OUT.... and then we might be accepted by Him... if we're fortunate...

thats what the Bible teaches


----------



## hobbs27

BAR308 said:


> we dont accept Him... He accepts us... the church has it backwards. we are to hear the Word, believe it, and LIVE IT OUT.... and then we might be accepted by Him... if we're fortunate...
> 
> thats what the Bible teaches



Chapter and verses?


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## Artfuldodger

BAR308 said:


> where does it say ANYWHERE...  that we "accept" Jesus for salvation....??? oh i just looked.. and its NOwhere.
> 
> we dont accept Him... He accepts us... the church has it backwards. we are to hear the Word, believe it, and LIVE IT OUT.... and then we might be accepted by Him... if we're fortunate...
> 
> thats what the Bible teaches



That we are are "Elected" by living it out? If the Church has it backwards, how does one live it out without first having the power of the Holy Spirit to produce the fruit necessary to live it out?

"and such were some of you but you were able to live it out?"


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## Artfuldodger

Galatians 4:4-5
4But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Why does this specify "under the Law?"


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## BAR308

hobbs27 said:


> Chapter and verses?



Acts 10:35
Rom 12:1
Rom 12:2
Rom 14:18
Rom 15:16
2 Cor 5::9
Eph 1:6
Eph 5:10
Phil 4:18
1 Tim 2:3
1 Tim 4:9
1 Tim 5:4
Heb 12:28
1 Pet 2:5
1 Pet 2:20


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## BAR308

Artfuldodger said:


> That we are are "Elected" by living it out? If the Church has it backwards, how does one live it out without first having the power of the Holy Spirit to produce the fruit necessary to live it out?
> 
> "and such were some of you but you were able to live it out?"



we cant live it out w/o Him.... His grace is POWER to live it out...


----------



## BAR308

Artfuldodger said:


> Galatians 4:4-5
> 4But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
> 
> Why does this specify "under the Law?"



ALL ppl were under the law until JTB... according to Jesus and then then NT came... Luke 16:16

if we're under Gods power to live holy and right.. we're no longer the "law". if we continue to sin like the devil.. we're still under the law.


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## Artfuldodger

BAR308 said:


> we cant live it out w/o Him.... His grace is POWER to live it out...



Well I've argued this same point when it comes to drunkards and homosexuals. Which comes first the chicken or the egg?

One is saved and then is able to live it out or one lives it out and is then saved. 
Then there is the whole concept of describing living it out. Is overeating acceptable but not having a lustful heart? Is fornicating acceptable but not having sex with a man?
Does the blood of Jesus wash all of my sins or just some of my sins? Who gets to decide if I'm living it out? If I could live it out, why did I need Jesus in the first place? If I have Jesus then it's His grace is POWER to live it out within me.

Again if works are a part of the salvation equation, we are all helpless. None of us are righteous and will never follow the Law unless we are willing to die by the Law.


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## Artfuldodger

BAR308 said:


> ALL ppl were under the law until JTB... according to Jesus and then then NT came... Luke 16:16
> 
> if we're under Gods power to live holy and right.. we're no longer the "law". if we continue to sin like the devil.. we're still under the law.



James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

I hope we are all able to not stumble.


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## hobbs27

Smart man.


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Smart man.



Each time I have read Matthew 24 from verses 26 to 35 I find that it describes people being assembled, the elect. They were being assembled during the generation spoken of in verse 34, but it would be ongoing and continues as I type this tonight. The sign of the Son of Man against the heavens is the cross , which was  present then as a sign and as it is present in this way for us today. Paul presented this sign to the gentiles for which many came to be baptized and confirmed in Christ. 

For all  Christian generations since the first one, there have been times for all those called by God where Jesus is at their door as the mystical church and through the Holy Spirit. These times should not be squandered.

And for the generation that was said in Mathew 24 "this generation will not pass away before this is to happen", Jesus went buy their doors as he does our doors today. If you are called, don't squander it.

I would suggest that today's generation would suffer a different judgement than Jesus gave his generation. They killed John and he fasted they killed Jesus and he ate and drank with the people. They ( many) missed the importance of both. And as to our generation I propose this:

 Luke 8:14 (KJV)

14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

"The kingdom of God is in your midst." "The kingdom of God is within you"(KJV). This gospel of the kingdom was in effect, real in the inner make up of Christians, long before the Jewish Temple was sacked in 70 AD.

And so this very same kingdom continues in the lives of Christians today. Don't squander it.


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Each time I have read Matthew 24 from verses 26 to 35 I find that it describes people being assembled, the elect. They were being assembled during the generation spoken of in verse 34, but it would be ongoing and continues as I type this tonight. The sign of the Son of Man against the heavens is the cross , which was  present then as a sign and as it is present in this way for us today. Paul presented this sign to the gentiles for which many came to be baptized and confirmed in Christ.
> 
> For all  Christian generations since the first one, there have been times for all those called by God where Jesus is at their door as the mystical church and through the Holy Spirit. These times should not be squandered.
> 
> And for the generation that was said in Mathew 24 "this generation will not pass away before this is to happen", Jesus went buy their doors as he does our doors today. If you are called, don't squander it.
> 
> I would suggest that today's generation would suffer a different judgement than Jesus gave his generation. They killed John and he fasted they killed Jesus and he ate and drank with the people. They ( many) missed the importance of both. And as to our generation I propose this:
> 
> Luke 8:14 (KJV)
> 
> 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
> 
> "The kingdom of God is in your midst." "The kingdom of God is within you"(KJV). This gospel of the kingdom was in effect, real in the inner make up of Christians, long before the Jewish Temple was sacked in 70 AD.
> 
> And so this very same kingdom continues in the lives of Christians today. Don't squander it.


I'm 90+% with you. The difference would be in how we describe the gathering of the elect.

In a nutshell, at Christ return He brought His gift, ( eternal life) aka Salvation. We are indeed continuing in Salvation. But what of those that died in wait of the blood? What of those that were awaiting in Hades( Abraham's bosom)  such as Samuel, and poor Lazarus?

They were IMO resurrected from spiritual death to eternal life. They were brought out of the grave, gathered together. When we are saved we are caught up in the same eternal Spirit as them. Paul argued that resurrection was the hope of Israel. We live in their hope
.
http://fullpreterism.com/the-abcs-o...st-hermeneutics-and-logic-speak-more-clearly/


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> I'm 90+% with you. The difference would be in how we describe the gathering of the elect.
> 
> In a nutshell, at Christ return He brought His gift, ( eternal life) aka Salvation. We are indeed continuing in Salvation. But what of those that died in wait of the blood? What of those that were awaiting in Hades( Abraham's bosom)  such as Samuel, and poor Lazarus?
> 
> They were IMO resurrected from spiritual death to eternal life. They were brought out of the grave, gathered together. When we are saved we are caught up in the same eternal Spirit as them. Paul argued that resurrection was the hope of Israel. We live in their hope
> .
> http://fullpreterism.com/the-abcs-o...st-hermeneutics-and-logic-speak-more-clearly/



I would suggest that their hope was a restoration of their glory as per the days of David--when they were not occupied by foreign nations and their nation was ethnically pure as God had deemed it should be. But some ( not all) in Isreal were  spiritually dead for this. Some like David had an authentic spiritual relationship with the God of Isreal. Others judged spiritual righteousness as hope in the restoration of physical Isreal-- ignoring that the charm of Isreal was her King, her prophets and her priests in intimate relationship with their God. These were spiritual in my view.


----------



## hobbs27

I read Acts 26 as Paul declaring the hope of Israel as the resurrection.
 Verse 24 shows me there are many today as Festus was then.


----------



## hobbs27

Just another guy that had figured out Matt. 24


----------



## welderguy

Strong delusion....


" And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."



" Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Strong delusion....
> 
> 
> " And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
> 
> For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."
> 
> 
> 
> " Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"



Below is only one example of the many in the Epistles
Just as Jesus said would happen, did happen:
1 John 4:1-6 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.


----------



## clayservant

hobbs27 said:


> The thief was not saved on the cross, besides he died under the old covenant before salvation was given in the new covenant. Paradise was a place in Hades not heaven, we know this for several reasons but the most obvious being that Christ didn't ascend at His death on the cross but descended...Eph. 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
> 
> I don't disagree with your doctrine of salvation, I just read it in a different part of scripture and for a different reason. Not that we are scared of hades, but because the spirit draws us, the kingdom draws us, and we know for everlasting life we must enter covenant with God.
> Rev. 22



you got this right. I agree 100%


----------



## hobbs27

clayservant said:


> you got this right. I agree 100%


----------



## hobbs27

We don't have to go too far to see the appearing of the false Christs in the first century.

Acts 8:9-11 But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great, 10 to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the great power of God." 11 And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time.

Acts 13:6-10 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus: 7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God. 8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. 9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, 10 And said, O full of all subtlety and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?


Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
The word "soothsaying" is defined by Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible as "supposed to rave through inspiration; to divine, i.e. utter spells (under pretence of foretelling)." Christ had foretold that there would arise antichrists and false prophets. This woman was clearly raving through her supposed foretelling or false prophesying. 

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time (hour-Gk.-hora): and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.



 This is probably one of the most revealing.. Peter warns : Jude confirms.

2 Peter 3:1-4 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

 Jude :11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> We don't have to go too far to see the appearing of the false Christs in the first century.
> 
> Acts 8:9-11 But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great, 10 to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the great power of God." 11 And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time.
> 
> Acts 13:6-10 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus: 7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God. 8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. 9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, 10 And said, O full of all subtlety and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
> 
> 
> Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
> The word "soothsaying" is defined by Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible as "supposed to rave through inspiration; to divine, i.e. utter spells (under pretence of foretelling)." Christ had foretold that there would arise antichrists and false prophets. This woman was clearly raving through her supposed foretelling or false prophesying.
> 
> 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time (hour-Gk.-hora): and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
> 
> Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
> 
> 
> 
> This is probably one of the most revealing.. Peter warns : Jude confirms.
> 
> 2 Peter 3:1-4 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
> 
> Jude :11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.



The spirit of anti-Christ is already in the world and has been since Jesus was here.There have been many that have had the spirit of anti-Christ as you've pointed out.But,there is THE anti-Christ that will be revealed in the last days who will be destroyed with the brightness of Jesus' coming.(2 Thess.2:8)


----------



## welderguy

clayservant said:


> you got this right. I agree 100%



So you also believe that upon Jesus' death,His spirit did not go to the Father?That it went to preach somewhere?

What about this?

Luke 23:46

" And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> The spirit of anti-Christ is already in the world and has been since Jesus was here.There have been many that have had the spirit of anti-Christ as you've pointed out.But,there is THE anti-Christ that will be revealed in the last days who will be destroyed with the brightness of Jesus' coming.(2 Thess.2:8)



How long do you believe the { last days } were/are? 

Hebrews 1:2 

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

 I've heard the argument that the last days are equal to the time of the new covenant, but that does not jive with Ephesians 3: 20-21.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> How long do you believe the { last days } were/are?
> 
> Hebrews 1:2
> 
> Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
> 
> I've heard the argument that the last days are equal to the time of the new covenant, but that does not jive with Ephesians 3: 20-21.



We've been in the last days since Jesus walked the earth.Still are in the last days.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> We've been in the last days since Jesus walked the earth.Still are in the last days.




If you can live with that obvious distortion of grammar..God Bless you.

 I can't.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> If you can live with that obvious distortion of grammar..God Bless you.
> 
> I can't.



You lost me.can you elaborate a little more?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> How long do you believe the { last days } were/are?
> I've heard the argument that the last days are equal to the time of the new covenant, but that does not jive with Ephesians 3: 20-21.



I must ask,do you believe Eph.3:20-21 jives with Eph.2:7?

I do.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> So you also believe that upon Jesus' death,His spirit did not go to the Father?That it went to preach somewhere?
> 
> What about this?
> 
> Luke 23:46
> 
> " And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."



I believe that when Jesus died, he died both physically and spiritually. To me that is what death is. It has to be that separation of spirit form God. Adam died spiritually and Jesus died spiritually. Otherwise death isn't really death.
We do know that sin causes death. We do know that Jesus took on sin for us. We can now have eternal life.

Jesus in-trusted to God his spirit. He knew that God would resurrect both his body & spirit. Jesus gave up his breath(spirit) that God gave man. 
Giving up the spirit is giving up the breath of life.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> You lost me.can you elaborate a little more?



 The author of Hebrews declared they were in the last days. " The last days" does not , cannot,  span thousands of years. It's been almost two thousand years since Hebrews was penned. If they were in the last days , we cant possibly be.



welderguy said:


> I must ask,do you believe Eph.3:20-21 jives with Eph.2:7?
> 
> I do.



 Of course it does.

Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


 ^^^ Written in the overlap of the old covenant age and new covenant.


Ephesians 3: 
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him_ be_ glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, age without end. Amen.  

Above describes the New Covenant age as being an age without end. How could anyone live in the last days of an age without end?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe that when Jesus died, he died both physically and spiritually. To me that is what death is. It has to be that separation of spirit form God. Adam died spiritually and Jesus died spiritually. Otherwise death isn't really death.
> We do know that sin causes death. We do know that Jesus took on sin for us. We can now have eternal life.
> 
> Jesus in-trusted to God his spirit. He knew that God would resurrect both his body & spirit. Jesus gave up his breath(spirit) that God gave man.
> Giving up the spirit is giving up the breath of life.




 I agree, not only that but Jesus made it clear He had not been to heaven yet. I don't understand how anyone can argue with Christs' own words here: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> The author of Hebrews declared they were in the last days. " The last days" does not , cannot,  span thousands of years. It's been almost two thousand years since Hebrews was penned. If they were in the last days , we cant possibly be.



Sure we can.Because one day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day.





hobbs27 said:


> Of course it does.
> 
> Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
> 
> 
> ^^^ Written in the overlap of the old covenant age and new covenant.



I believe the "ages to come" here is speaking of eternity in heaven.




hobbs27 said:


> Ephesians 3:
> 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him_ be_ glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, age without end. Amen.
> 
> Above describes the New Covenant age as being an age without end. How could anyone live in the last days of an age without end?



You are correct.There are no last days of this new covenant.It's eternal.




hobbs27 said:


> I know of no where in scripture that says God will destroy the Cosmos ( World) only the Aion ( Age) also translated as ( world) in some versions.



Last days refers to the end of the cosmos,as spoken of in 1 John 2:17-18 

"And the world(cosmos) passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

Do you see how this contradicts your theology?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I agree, not only that but Jesus made it clear He had not been to heaven yet. I don't understand how anyone can argue with Christs' own words here: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father



His BODY had not yet ascended. His spirit had because of the proof of His own words on the cross.

Luke 23:46

"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."


----------



## gordon 2

welderguy said:


> His BODY had not yet ascended. His spirit had because of the proof of His own words on the cross.
> 
> Luke 23:46
> 
> "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."




you got this right. I agree 100%


----------



## Artfuldodger

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death ; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I'm gonna have to look into this death thing. It appears it's more than I was originally taught.

“Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?”
Now that's what I call death.

Jesus knew that physical death was a breeze but to be abandoned and separated from his Father would be a nightmare.


----------



## Israel

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


----------



## gordon 2

Israel said:


> Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
> 
> And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.



Yep!


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Sure we can.Because one day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day.



 This verse does not give you a right to pull it out of context and use it every time you need it to explain your doctrine vs biblical time statements. God can tell time, and God does not use time to confuse his children.







welderguy said:


> I believe the "ages to come" here is speaking of eternity in heaven.
> 
> 
> Last days refers to the end of the cosmos,as spoken of in 1 John 2:17-18
> 
> "And the world(cosmos) passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
> Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."
> 
> Do you see how this contradicts your theology?




 I see no contradiction at all. The things of this world, which is the context, are not to be looked upon as great, for all these things will pass. At our passing.
 We live a life on earth for a time, but we will be with Christ forever, keep your eyes on heavenly things.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> His BODY had not yet ascended. His spirit had because of the proof of His own words on the cross.
> 
> Luke 23:46
> 
> "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."



 God is not a physical body. Jesus is God--God is Spirit-- Jesus said He had not yet ascended --He is Spirit!


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.
> 
> Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death ; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
> 
> I'm gonna have to look into this death thing. It appears it's more than I was originally taught.
> 
> “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?”
> Now that's what I call death.
> 
> Jesus knew that physical death was a breeze but to be abandoned and separated from his Father would be a nightmare.



http://www.lastdays-eschatology.net/covanenteschatology.html


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> This verse does not give you a right to pull it out of context and use it every time you need it to explain your doctrine vs biblical time statements. God can tell time, and God does not use time to confuse his children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see no contradiction at all. The things of this world, which is the context, are not to be looked upon as great, for all these things will pass. At our passing.
> We live a life on earth for a time, but we will be with Christ forever, keep your eyes on heavenly things.





" For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."(2 Tim.4)



" And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be dam ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."(2 Thess.2)


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> God is not a physical body. Jesus is God--God is Spirit-- Jesus said He had not yet ascended --He is Spirit!




Luke 24:39

" Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> This verse does not give you a right to pull it out of context and use it every time you need it to explain your doctrine vs biblical time statements.



Verse 8 is very much in context,as you well know,with the end times.Peter is telling them to be faithful to the end however long it is,whether one day or a thousand,or longer.It applies to ALL God's people,as does the entire bible.


2 Pet.3

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Verse 8 is very much in context,as you well know,with the end times.Peter is telling them to be faithful to the end however long it is,whether one day or a thousand,or longer.It applies to ALL God's people,as does the entire bible.
> 
> 
> 2 Pet.3
> 
> 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
> 
> 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
> 
> 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
> 
> 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
> 
> 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
> 
> 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
> 
> 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
> 
> 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
> 
> 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
> 
> 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
> 
> 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
> 
> 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
> 
> 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
> 
> 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
> 
> 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
> 
> 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.



 Gods time is everlasting and His day is "as" a thousand years. If God was speaking to God when He gave the time statements in scripture then what you claim would be true, we wouldn't know.

 But God was speaking to man in scripture which is "God breathed" and His many imminent time statement were not told to man to be deceitful or confusing. When Jesus said He would return in that Generation, He meant that Generation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Israel said:


> Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
> 
> And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.



Where does or spirits wait for him to appear? Then and only then will we be like him. Then and only then will we see him as he is. 

Does this mean we won't see Jesus when we die as we won't be like him until he appears or is his appearance at our physical death?


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> " For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
> And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."(2 Tim.4)
> 
> 
> 
> " And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
> That they all might be dam ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."(2 Thess.2)



This must be when denominations were started. Unless there was already false churches that had turned the truth into fables and the newly formed denominations  were trying to get back to the truth. 
We should always test the spirits and move in the direction of enlightenment.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> .2 Pet.3
> 
> 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
> 
> 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers  fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the  creation.




 Does this not destroy your theology? You see all things were just as they were before the cross. Yes, this is the message of the scoffers, they were saying " it is never going to happen". The first century Christians knew it had to happen in their generation for Christ said it would..I know they are speaking of the resurrection, the temple, and the law, but you have denied that, saying the law was fulfilled at the cross. If the law was fulfilled how could all things be as they were from the beginning?


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> " For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
> And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."(2 Tim.4)
> 
> 
> 
> " And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
> That they all might be dam ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."(2 Thess.2)



How do you justify Election in the context of those verses? I'm assuming it will be the non-elect that falls away from the truth to follow the delusion.
Just think, believe in the truth and you won't be dam ed.
God did send the delusion though. Now we just gotta figure out who he sent it to.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> This must be when denominations were started. Unless there was already false churches that had turned the truth into fables and the newly formed denominations  were trying to get back to the truth.
> We should always test the spirits and move in the direction of enlightenment.




I think there was some mention of this in Revelation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Luke 24:39
> 
> " Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."



Where will our spirits wait until we see Jesus in his body of flesh and bones? When we finally get to see Jesus as he really is and be like him. 
The bible tells us that when Christ appears, we'll be like him. Now if we must wait, where do we wait if death isn't spiritual separation from God.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> 2 Pet.3
> 
> 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,.



What Peter foretold, Jude declared.

Jude: 16These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

17But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

18How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Does this not destroy your theology? You see all things were just as they were before the cross. Yes, this is the message of the scoffers, they were saying " it is never going to happen". The first century Christians knew it had to happen in their generation for Christ said it would..I know they are speaking of the resurrection, the temple, and the law, but you have denied that, saying the law was fulfilled at the cross. If the law was fulfilled how could all things be as they were from the beginning?




It seems that you either misunderstand my theology or you are misunderstanding what Peter declares the scoffers are saying....or both.


----------



## centerpin fan

Wow.  Ten pages on what started out as a simple trolling thread.


----------



## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


> Wow.  Ten pages on what started out as a simple trolling thread.



I know. Why can't we just all agree?
makes me tired.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> It seems that you either misunderstand my theology or you are misunderstanding what Peter declares the scoffers are saying....or both.



Well I certainly don't understand your theology. It seems very close to the JW's though. 

 The scoffers were saying  Why hasn't He returned with His reward.
 See, until Christ returned the curse of death from Adam remained. This is why there was ' Dead in Christ' in those days and ' the dead ones'. The dead ones were of Israel, the ' dead in Christ ' were those that died in faith, but since His return and the raising of the ' dead ones' and the ' dead in Christ' we have eternal life. Without His return eternal life could not be present and we would still be waiting on it.

 The scoffers were successful in deceiving some because they knew His return was imminent yet it had not come, the scoffers fed off their impatience...Just as Hymenaeus was successful in convincing many that the resurrection had taken place pre-70ad...which should make any futurist question their belief in a physical resurrection. 

 Paul argued to be patient, while at the same time stating the time was near, do not give up the faith. It happened just as Jesus said it would.


----------



## gordon 2

centerpin fan said:


> Wow.  Ten pages on what started out as a simple trolling thread.




Almost like the AAA forum ( your favorite) except for more pages there.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> It seems very close to the JW's though.





Now that was low.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Well I certainly don't understand your theology. It seems very close to the JW's though.
> 
> The scoffers were saying  Why hasn't He returned with His reward.
> See, until Christ returned the curse of death from Adam remained. This is why there was ' Dead in Christ' in those days and ' the dead ones'. The dead ones were of Israel, the ' dead in Christ ' were those that died in faith, but since His return and the raising of the ' dead ones' and the ' dead in Christ' we have eternal life. Without His return eternal life could not be present and we would still be waiting on it.
> 
> The scoffers were successful in deceiving some because they knew His return was imminent yet it had not come, the scoffers fed off their impatience...Just as Hymenaeus was successful in convincing many that the resurrection had taken place pre-70ad...which should make any futurist question their belief in a physical resurrection.
> 
> Paul argued to be patient, while at the same time stating the time was near, do not give up the faith. It happened just as Jesus said it would.



These scoffers are people who are deliberately against God's truth.It's not that they just don't know any better.It's that they hate God.Paul said they were "willingly ignorant" and for this cause God gave them "strong delusion".
Some were mocking like in the days before the flood,saying nothing's going to happen and all things remain the same as always.
Others(such as yourself)said the resurrection has already passed.

I'm saying both of these concepts are wrong and of the devil.


----------



## Israel

Why consider it low to be called "like a JW?"
What label may be hung upon us that our Lord has not already born in grace, like blasphemer?
Much lately I have had to consider before the Lord...is it enough that he knows my heart? And in his knowing of all...might I also find it a great work of grace that he doesn't advertise the all I have also subject his eyes to?
Does he ignore...or purpose to not remember?
Is he stupid to be fooled by my Jesus face, or does he see someone burdened with masks?
What do we see when we see one another? The benighted or one for whom Christ died?
These are only my questions...fit for my soul that is so easily given to imagine itself the light to the blind...the teacher to babes.
What do any of us have...that we have not received?
I am only beginning to discover....maybe as afar off, but there, my need of mercy far outstrips any and all imagined instruction I have believed others need.
So many of you have helped me with that, I am hard pressed to say anything but thanks.
To the Catholic, to the Baptist, to the Orthodox, the Preterist and any and all whose persuasions haven't been spoken, or abandoned...it matters not. I am debtor to all.

And though this is truth, I know I do not yet know it...as I shall.
So, to that extent it's more than OK if I be liar in your eyes. Cause I don't know, I just don't know...how big this mercy is toward us...despite my crowing.


OOOps, I forgot the Atheists, sometimes a bigger help than I care to admit.


----------



## welderguy

Israel said:


> Why consider it low to be called "like a JW?"



If the Jehovah's Witnesses stood for the truth according to the Word of God,then it would be a compliment,but they do not.

I'm not judging them individually,you see,just the fruit that I observe.
Let God be true and every man a liar.
Jesus said don't hide your light under a bushel(basket).

David said Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.

Jude said to earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> If the Jehovah's Witnesses stood for the truth according to the Word of God,then it would be a compliment,but they do not.



It was meant for neither a compliment or insult, but I see you took it for an insult so I apologize.

 If you study what the JW's believe outside of soteriology , I think you might agree with my guess..maybe not, but they are very demanding of a physical, fleshly eternity.

 They have a couple of things right, not that I agree with most of their doctrine.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> It was meant for neither a compliment or insult, but I see you took it for an insult so I apologize.
> 
> If you study what the JW's believe outside of soteriology , I think you might agree with my guess..maybe not, but they are very demanding of a physical, fleshly eternity.
> 
> They have a couple of things right, not that I agree with most of their doctrine.



If they believe in a resurrected glorified body ,fashioned like Jesus' glorious body,the same one in Acts 1:11 that in like manner is coming again,then they would be correct...But they don't.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> If they believe in a resurrected glorified body ,fashioned like Jesus' glorious body,the same one in Acts 1:11 that in like manner is coming again,then they would be correct...But they don't.



I believe Jesus came back in like manner.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I believe Jesus came back in like manner.



Did every eye see Him?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Did every eye see Him?



Figuratively yes: note even those who pierced Him. Yes when He came they knew.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Figuratively yes: note even those who pierced Him. Yes when He came they knew.



Well,howcome I never was. aware(literally or figuratively),that He came before I was told by you?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Well,howcome I never was. aware(literally or figuratively),that He came before I was told by you?



 It's Herman Neutics fault, don't blame me. Many people read scripture without considering the audience relevance. We aren't reading a book written to us from the past, we're reading a story of the past. Who was Jesus speaking to here and what do you think they thought He meant? 

Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for  verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel,  till the Son of man be come.

What must the seven churches thought of Revelation 1:1 when they received the letter and read it the first time? Do you think they would have thought , this is for us, since it was said " Things which must shortly come to pass" 

Once your biblical eyes are opened to this you cant run from it. His imminent return is throughout scripture, and the old testament prophecies are fulfilled before your eyes in His death, burial, resurrection, and return. The time statements are everywhere, and none of them allow for a return past the first generation . Jesus made this clear. ....
*"There are some of you standing here who will not taste death.."

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.




*


----------



## Artfuldodger

Question for the Futurist; when Jerusalem was destroyed, where did Jesus destroy it from?


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> If they believe in a resurrected glorified body ,fashioned like Jesus' glorious body,the same one in Acts 1:11 that in like manner is coming again,then they would be correct...But they don't.



Is this resurrected glorified body still us? I know that JW's believe our spirit's die and are re-created. I'm trying to figure out how much of me will be me, whatever "me" is. Will my new body be me or a copy of me?

If my spirit doesn't die then how can I say I've died? How can I say when Jesus returns, I'll see him as he is and be like him if my spirit goes to see him before he returns?

Perhaps death has been defeated and I won't have to die. I'm OK with that concept as long as my new life will continue in Heaven. If and when I do make it to Heaven I will see Jesus as he is and become like him. 
If that is an event that is way future of my physical death then I'm willing to sleep in the ground and wait. 

I just wonder how much of me will still be me. How much flesh will I shed? Will I shed just my blood?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> It's Herman Neutics fault, don't blame me. Many people read scripture without considering the audience relevance. We aren't reading a book written to us from the past, we're reading a story of the past. Who was Jesus speaking to here and what do you think they thought He meant?
> 
> Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for  verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel,  till the Son of man be come.
> 
> What must the seven churches thought of Revelation 1:1 when they received the letter and read it the first time? Do you think they would have thought , this is for us, since it was said " Things which must shortly come to pass"
> 
> Once your biblical eyes are opened to this you cant run from it. His imminent return is throughout scripture, and the old testament prophecies are fulfilled before your eyes in His death, burial, resurrection, and return. The time statements are everywhere, and none of them allow for a return past the first generation . Jesus made this clear. ....
> *"There are some of you standing here who will not taste death.."
> 
> Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
> 
> 
> Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



So,what I think I understand you saying is those that were still alive at 70AD saw Jesus with their own eyes,but those of us not born yet only saw Him figuratively.But since,as you say,it wasn't written to us,it really doesn't apply to us.
Now,using your line of reasoning,Im left wondering if any of the other promises apply to me and especially whether my sins are washed away.If they only applied to the audience in the first century we're all doomed.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> It's Herman Neutics fault, don't blame me. Many people read scripture without considering the audience relevance. We aren't reading a book written to us from the past, we're reading a story of the past. Who was Jesus speaking to here and what do you think they thought He meant?
> 
> Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for  verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel,  till the Son of man be come.
> 
> What must the seven churches thought of Revelation 1:1 when they received the letter and read it the first time? Do you think they would have thought , this is for us, since it was said " Things which must shortly come to pass"
> 
> Once your biblical eyes are opened to this you cant run from it. His imminent return is throughout scripture, and the old testament prophecies are fulfilled before your eyes in His death, burial, resurrection, and return. The time statements are everywhere, and none of them allow for a return past the first generation . Jesus made this clear. ....
> *"There are some of you standing here who will not taste death.."
> 
> Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
> 
> Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
> 
> *



1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Was this Christ's first or second coming?


----------



## NE GA Pappy

I still haven't seen that Mount of Olives split it two.  Neither has anyone else. That answers the question on whether or not He has returned to me.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> So,what I think I understand you saying is those that were still alive at 70AD saw Jesus with their own eyes,but those of us not born yet only saw Him figuratively.But since,as you say,it wasn't written to us,it really doesn't apply to us.
> Now,using your line of reasoning,Im left wondering if any of the other promises apply to me and especially whether my sins are washed away.If they only applied to the audience in the first century we're all doomed.



Revelation 1:7 is the " must shortly come to pass" of 

    See the scripture come alive in truth here

Zechariah 12: 

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> These scoffers are people who are deliberately against God's truth.It's not that they just don't know any better.It's that they hate God.Paul said they were "willingly ignorant" and for this cause God gave them "strong delusion".
> Some were mocking like in the days before the flood,saying nothing's going to happen and all things remain the same as always.
> Others(such as yourself)said the resurrection has already passed.
> 
> I'm saying both of these concepts are wrong and of the devil.



They were "willingly ignorant" and God gave them over to become strongly delusional.  Reminds me of "they" in Romans 1. Although "they" new God they wouldn't worship him or give him Glory. Therefore  God gave them over to a reprobate mind.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 John 3:2
> Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
> 
> Was this Christ's first or second coming?



Second... IMO His first coming ( as most recognize) is as a babe.

 Interesting though isn't it? John says " when Christ appears we shall see Him as He is" 

 Didn't John see Him after the resurrection? Something must have changed from the ascension to the time John spoke these words, or he isn't talking about a physical appearance at all..maybe he's speaking of being like Him " resurrected from death spiritually"


----------



## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> I still haven't seen that Mount of Olives split it two.  Neither has anyone else. That answers the question on whether or not He has returned to me.



Then our Savior failed to do what He said He would do and when He said He would do it, and all hope is lost.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

hobbs27 said:


> Then our Savior failed to do what He said He would do and when He said He would do it, and all hope is lost.



or Hobbs27 could be totally RONG and He hasn't returned yet.  

The possibilities are not endless, but the arguments are endless.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Zachariah 12 is speaking of Pentecost(Acts2).Don't you think?



No, but did they look upon Him at Pentecost?


----------



## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> or Hobbs27 could be totally RONG and He hasn't returned yet.
> 
> The possibilities are not endless, but the arguments are endless.



Yes sir. I could be wrong, but is Gods word? I don't think so.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> No, but did they look upon Him at Pentecost?



I think its speaking of the working of the Holy Spirit revealing Himself through the "eye" of faith.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> No, but did they look upon Him at Pentecost?



Did they see Jesus as he really is at the Pentecost? Did they see Jesus as he really was at the destruction of Jerusalem?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I think its speaking of the working of the Holy Spirit revealing Himself through the "eye" of faith.



Then why all the mourning?


----------



## NE GA Pappy

hobbs27 said:


> Yes sir. I could be wrong, but is Gods word? I don't think so.



I know God's word is right. So it has to be how we understand it that is wrong.  Let God be true, and every man a liar.  

I keep wondering what happened to that 1000 year millennial reign, where evil is locked away too.  When did we have 1000 years of no death, and peace over the entire world?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Did they see Jesus as he really is at the Pentecost? Did they see Jesus as he really was at the destruction of Jerusalem?



I think at His return, not the coming of the comforter.


----------



## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> I know God's word is right. So it has to be how we understand it that is wrong.  Let God be true, and every man a liar.
> 
> I keep wondering what happened to that 1000 year millennial reign, where evil is locked away too.  When did we have 1000 years of no death, and peace over the entire world?



We could spend weeks and go 20 pages on that.  

 That was one of my big questions way back when too, an obstacle I thought would never allow for fulfilled prophecy... but there's answers and very good ones.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Second... IMO His first coming ( as most recognize) is as a babe.
> 
> Interesting though isn't it? John says " when Christ appears we shall see Him as He is"
> 
> Didn't John see Him after the resurrection? Something must have changed from the ascension to the time John spoke these words, or he isn't talking about a physical appearance at all..maybe he's speaking of being like Him " resurrected from death spiritually"



Maybe John meant when Christ appeared from the grave.
If it's when we leave the grave, then that's when we'll first see Christ. It will be at the moment of our spiritual awakening/resurrection. Which could be at our physical resurrection. Death has to be spiritual and eternal life has to be spiritual otherwise Adam didn't die when he sinned.

When Christ appears is the key. It doesn't have to be when Christ returns. 
Now when Christ resurrected, he appeared. At the Pentecost Christ appeared. When Christ destroyed Jerusalem he appeared. Christ appeared to Paul.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

welderguy said:


> Conviction of sin.
> I believe if I were there and I had been one that had cried "crucify Him,crucify Him",Id be weeping too when the Spirit convicted me.



this problem is it was our sins too that nailed Him to the cross.  Not just the ones that were there that day.  We are just as guilty as they, and maybe even more so, having the advantage of looking back at that day, and the scriptural prophecies that were fulfilled.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe John meant when Christ appeared from the grave.
> If it's when we leave the grave, then that's when we'll first see Christ. It will be at the moment of our spiritual awakening/resurrection. Which could be at our physical resurrection. Death has to be spiritual and eternal life has to be spiritual otherwise Adam didn't die when he sinned.
> 
> When Christ appears is the key. It doesn't have to be when Christ returns.
> Now when Christ resurrected, he appeared. At the Pentecost Christ appeared. When Christ destroyed Jerusalem he appeared. Christ appeared to Paul.




Christ destroyed Jerusalem?


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Conviction of sin.
> I believe if I were there and I had been one that had cried "crucify Him,crucify Him",Id be weeping too when the Spirit convicted me.



And they saw Jesus as he really is?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Conviction of sin.
> I believe if I were there and I had been one that had cried "crucify Him,crucify Him",Id be weeping too when the Spirit convicted me.



Zechariah 13: 8- Tells us when this will be. 70 ad better fits this than Pentecost.


8 
And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:

9 
I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I think at His return, not the coming of the comforter.



Well in 70 AD when they saw Jesus as he really was, did they become like him?


----------



## NE GA Pappy

fits more with tribulation when 2/3 of all man kind perishes.


----------



## welderguy

NE GA Pappy said:


> this problem is it was our sins too that nailed Him to the cross.  Not just the ones that were there that day.  We are just as guilty as they, and maybe even more so, having the advantage of looking back at that day, and the scriptural prophecies that were fulfilled.



I agree.I started to even include that in my post but didn't want to confuse my point.


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> Christ destroyed Jerusalem?



Well technically God did using the Romans. He liked using the Romans to destroy. Reminds me of who killed Jesus, us(sin), the Jews, or the Romans?


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> I agree.I started to even include that in my post but didn't want to confuse my point.



It's funny how we all start to justify the hard parts. Suddenly those that pierced Jesus is everyone and the Millennial isn't an actual 1,000 year reign.

Zechariah 13: 8-9 isn't a historical event but the previous chapter is.
Then again it could be historical but it's not about Jerusalem but mankind.

I'm going to have to agree that the "line" is starting to get tangled.


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## NE GA Pappy

well, if it helps any, my side is....

we all had a hand in killing the messiah.  Not just those there doing the actual deed.

millennial is 1000 years.  

Zech 12-14 hasn't happened yet.  12 says all the nations of the world will come against Israel.  That He will destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. When that happens, they will recognize Him as Messiah and then they will weep because they will realize what was done and how they rejected Him. That is why 13:1 say the fountain will be opened and cleanse them from their sins.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Then why all the mourning?



I was mistaken.Zachariah 12 and 13 speaks of Jesus' crucifixion,not Pentecost.


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## Artfuldodger

I don't know if it's happened yet but it's definitly about Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:4
On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

Zechariah 14:11
It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.


New beginning on earth? Never to be destroyed? I missed the 1,000 year reign followed by total destruction.


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## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> well, if it helps any, my side is....
> 
> we all had a hand in killing the messiah.  Not just those there doing the actual deed.
> 
> millennial is 1000 years.
> 
> Zech 12-14 hasn't happened yet.  12 says all the nations of the world will come against Israel.  That He will destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. When that happens, they will recognize Him as Messiah and then they will weep because they will realize what was done and how they rejected Him. That is why 13:1 say the fountain will be opened and cleanse them from their sins.



Well not exactly salvation after death but at least salvation after the return of Christ. I guess the Jews will finally see Jesus as he really is and become like him.
13:1---This fountain? Is it a baptism cleansing of sorts?


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## NE GA Pappy

what 1000 year reign followed by destruction?  I don't recall that.  I read where Satan will be turned loose for a short season, but nothing about a destruction.

And that Mount of Olives... When I was there in March, it was not split East/West.  There is a valley on the west side, between it and the temple mount, but there is NO north/south valley there. Period.  So, how could Zech 14 have happened yet?  

There will also be a river gushing forth from the foot of the Mount of Olives, that will run down to the Dead Sea, and bring life to the Dead sea.  The only way I know that can happen is for there to be an outlet so the water can flow, and that valley is deep.  It would flood almost up to Jerusalem.  But maybe there is a way to do it without making an outlet there.  IDK?


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## NE GA Pappy

Artfuldodger said:


> 13:1---This fountain? Is it a baptism cleansing of sorts?



any man that drinks of the living water shall thirst no more.... that fountain.


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## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> fits more with tribulation when 2/3 of all man kind perishes.



 Exactly. 

 Revelation 1: I, John, both  your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience  of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of  God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.  <sup class="versenum">1</sup>


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## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> any man that drinks of the living water shall thirst no more.... that fountain.



I agree..but do you think this is available yet? 

Revelation 22: <sup class="versenum"> </sup>And  the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say,  “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the  water of life freely.


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## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> what 1000 year reign followed by destruction?  I don't recall that.  I read where Satan will be turned loose for a short season, but nothing about a destruction.
> 
> And that Mount of Olives... When I was there in March, it was not split East/West.  There is a valley on the west side, between it and the temple mount, but there is NO north/south valley there. Period.  So, how could Zech 14 have happened yet?
> 
> There will also be a river gushing forth from the foot of the Mount of Olives, that will run down to the Dead Sea, and bring life to the Dead sea.  The only way I know that can happen is for there to be an outlet so the water can flow, and that valley is deep.  It would flood almost up to Jerusalem.  But maybe there is a way to do it without making an outlet there.  IDK?



You said a millennial is 1000 years. Reading through Zechariah I didn't see any mention of an end times prophesy that included the end of the world or I didn't read of a 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth.
If Zechariah is an account of a future event, it didn't include the destruction of the earth or a millennial reign.


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## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> what 1000 year reign followed by destruction?  I don't recall that.  I read where Satan will be turned loose for a short season, but nothing about a destruction.
> 
> And that Mount of Olives... When I was there in March, it was not split East/West.  There is a valley on the west side, between it and the temple mount, but there is NO north/south valley there. Period.  So, how could Zech 14 have happened yet?
> 
> There will also be a river gushing forth from the foot of the Mount of Olives, that will run down to the Dead Sea, and bring life to the Dead sea.  The only way I know that can happen is for there to be an outlet so the water can flow, and that valley is deep.  It would flood almost up to Jerusalem.  But maybe there is a way to do it without making an outlet there.  IDK?



Do you believe the fountain in 13:1 is futuristic for the Jews, the ones who pierced Jesus, or all of us?
Is that fountain a future event happening just before the splitting of Mt.Olive?


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you believe the fountain in 13:1 is futuristic for the Jews, the ones who pierced Jesus, or all of us?
> Is that fountain a future event happening just before the splitting of Mt.Olive?



I believe that fountain is the Lord Jesus Christ.


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> I believe that fountain is the Lord Jesus Christ.



Can we read through Zachariah and see other non-literal representations?
What I'm getting at is Zachariah Chapters 9-14 are written in apocalyptic literature. It's like reading from the book of Revelation.
Not that it's not part of God's Word but not the only part of God's Word. We don't fully understand it's meaning. 

Here is an example;
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, And upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, The spirit of grace and of supplication; And they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; And they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, And shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

The one pierced might not even point to the Messiah. It is also used to point to the Trinity. 

 "They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son." Earlier renditions of Zechariah read even differently from this.


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Can we read through Zachariah and see other non-literal representations?
> What I'm getting at is Zachariah Chapters 9-14 are written in apocalyptic literature. It's like reading from the book of Revelation.
> Not that it's not part of God's Word but not the only part of God's Word. We don't fully understand it's meaning.
> 
> Here is an example;
> Zechariah 12:10
> And I will pour upon the house of David, And upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, The spirit of grace and of supplication; And they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; And they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, And shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.
> 
> The one pierced might not even point to the Messiah. It is also used to point to the Trinity.
> 
> "They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son." Earlier renditions of Zechariah read even differently from this.



To me,its clearly describing Jesus' crucifixion and its implications.


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## hobbs27

There's a reason so much of the statements made by the apostles in the epistles are drawn of old testament prophecy. The Apostles were through the gift they received by the Holy Spirit coming to an understanding of those old prophecies.

 The prophets themselves didn't understand them, but knew they would be revealed some day. Daniel for instance was told to seal up his book till the last days. The Apostles were in the last days and Daniels prophecies of the last days were being revealed...such as 

 Daniel 12

“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.

2 
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank.  6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?”

7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.


 This is no doubt a prophecy of the resurrection at the time Jerusalem was destroyed.

 God Bless you all, I'll be taking a little break from here to get in some deer hunting over the next few days..or weeks.


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> To me,its clearly describing Jesus' crucifixion and its implications.



Those who pierced my side? Yes I agree. When they killed Jesus, they killed God. Not literally but God said "those who pierced my side." 

Now what about the Book of Zechariah? It appears to be a prophetic account of the historical events of the Nation of Israel. It's message of effectual calling, repentance and salvation of the individuals in Israel are certainly true of all God calls. True it is a mystery and parts written in apocalyptic language but still a timeline of the nation of Israel.
Zechariah covers these events like no other Old Testament prophet. New Testament apostles refer to his account.
Maybe it happened to Jerusalem in 70 AD or maybe it's in the future but it's definitely about Israel. 
Just look how many times Zechariah says "in that day."

“They will look on Me whom they have pierced and they will mourn for Him.” 

The Holy Spirit will be on them  and they will mourn. 

"On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity."

After their effectual calling, they will finally see Jesus as he really is and repent. They will become like Jesus.
There won't be any need for idols and false prophets after that. God will do away with them. Their mission accomplished.


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## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> this problem is it was our sins too that nailed Him to the cross.  Not just the ones that were there that day.  We are just as guilty as they, and maybe even more so, having the advantage of looking back at that day, and the scriptural prophecies that were fulfilled.



Zechariah 13:7
"Awake, sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is close to me!" declares the LORD Almighty. "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


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## hobbs27

Charles Spurgeon / Metropolitan Tabernacle (London) said (in a sermon on Isaiah 65:17-19), "Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, or any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Charles Spurgeon, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).


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## centerpin fan

centerpin fan said:


> Wow.  Ten pages on what started out as a simple trolling thread.



Thirteen and counting.

What's the over/under on this one hitting twenty pages?


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## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> Thirteen and counting.
> 
> What's the over/under on this one hitting twenty pages?



Seems to have slowed a bit.......needs a good bump or two to get it cranked back up


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