# For the Atheist can there be 'good' &/or 'evil?'



## RegularJoe (Jun 27, 2022)

For the Atheist can there be 'good' &/or 'evil?'


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## WaltL1 (Jun 27, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> For the Atheist can there be 'good' &/or 'evil?'


First -
Alot of your questions start with "For the Atheist". Im answering but consider myself Agnostic. If thats ok......
Good and Evil are descriptive words. I dont think A/As consider their meanings to originate in the same place as Christians.
"Good" - Helping an old lady across the street.
"Evil" - Tripping the old lady on purpose so she falls in front of a bus.
Nothing to do with originating from God or Satan or...


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> First -
> Alot of your questions start with "For the Atheist". Im answering but consider myself Agnostic. If thats ok......
> Good and Evil are descriptive words. I dont think A/As consider their meanings to originate in the same place as Christians.
> "Good" - Helping an old lady across the street.
> ...



I pretty much agree with this analysis. There are terribly bad behaviors that you have to classify as something, so evil fits the bill even if it has nothing to do with the spiritual/supernatural.


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## RegularJoe (Jun 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> First -
> Alot of your questions start with "For the Atheist".
> Im answering but consider myself Agnostic. If thats ok......
> Good and Evil are descriptive words. I dont think A/As consider their meanings to originate in the same place as Christians.....
> Nothing to do with originating from God or Satan or...


Thanks Walt.  Reason for my question starting out phrased 'For the Atheist...' is to differentiate from Agnostic, 
so as to help me learn more specifically about Atheistic ideology ... 
this forum is helping me a lot toward that end.  
Appreciate your views expressed and explained Sir.
Related : ) to above, .... 
makes a lot of sense that if Atheist ideology can embrace good and evil 
that it can not be from the same source as Christianity ... 
though I am not endeavoring, here in, to compare it to Christianity ... 
my personal objective is understanding Atheism in and of itself, 
which is why 
(as posted in other threads that I know you have examined)
I have commented that I have studied and inquired about the validity / accuracy of the book Humanist Manifestos I & II....
cause it represents itself as portraying Atheistic ideology.


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## RegularJoe (Jun 27, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I pretty much agree with this analysis. There are terribly bad behaviors that you have to classify as something, so evil fits the bill even if it has nothing to do with the spiritual/supernatural.


Thx Old; however, on what would 'bad' be based on for the Atheist?
Allow me to again comment ... 
my inquiries have nothing to do with a comparison with any other ideologies ... 
i.e., just trying to understand Atheism as a standalone.


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## 660griz (Jun 27, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> For the Atheist can there be 'good' &/or 'evil?'


Yes.

I think I know where this is going. "How can Atheist know good and evil without a book telling them?"

Well, some folks have empathy. You know what hurts you. You know the feeling of losing a loved one. Pain. You know what freedom is like so you are against slavery. You know what it feels like to be vulnerable so you want to protect the ones that can't protect themselves. You know what it takes to live in a society.

Some folks may be void of those feelings and are just not real sure what is right/wrong, good/evil. Hand them a Bible but, please tell them to ignore the Old Testament.

Question for you. Would you rather live around a bunch of folks that generally care about their fellow man and feel that heaven is right here on earth, right now, OR live around a bunch of folks who do good/evil because God told them to and if they make a mistake, ye shall be forgiven?


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## WaltL1 (Jun 27, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> Thanks Walt.  Reason for my question starting out phrased 'For the Atheist...' is to differentiate from Agnostic,
> so as to help me learn more specifically about Atheistic ideology ...
> this forum is helping me a lot toward that end.
> Appreciate your views expressed and explained Sir.
> ...





> I have commented that I have studied and inquired about the validity / accuracy of the book Humanist Manifestos I & II....


This is 100% my opinion, have not read the book, and I could be completely wrong but..... be careful about putting too much stock in a book about Atheism. I think you can learn much more accurate info doing exactly what you are doing - asking Atheists.
The only concrete thing about Atheists is they dont believe in a God or gods. After that, anything else is up in the air and based on the individual person.


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## 660griz (Jun 27, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> help me learn more specifically about Atheistic ideology ...


Can you explain Theist ideology?


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## 660griz (Jun 27, 2022)

Good: Football coach prays alone at midfield after a game. 
Evil: *Football coach fired for on-field prayer*


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## NCHillbilly (Jun 27, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> Thx Old; however, on what would 'bad' be based on for the Atheist?
> Allow me to again comment ...
> my inquiries have nothing to do with a comparison with any other ideologies ...
> i.e., just trying to understand Atheism as a standalone.


Most folks I have known who are atheists have just as well-defined a sense of good and evil as most Christians I know. To the atheist, "bad" would be based on things like hurting other people, or doing things that cause negative things to happen, instead of just a sense of breaking a rule written in a book, i.e. "sin." But then, everyone is an individual. I am sure there is a mix of outstandingly good and moral Athiests, as well as psychotic murderous ones, the same as Christians.


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## 660griz (Jun 27, 2022)

A new study published in Nature Human Behaviour found that people around the world are predisposed to believe that atheists are more likely to be serial killers than religious believers — a bias even held by atheists themselves.


*By the numbers: *The study included 3,256 participants across 13 diverse countries that included highly secular nations like Finland and the Netherlands as well as highly religious ones like the United Arab Emirates and India.
*The test:* Participants answered a survey question regarding the religious beliefs of a hypothetical sociopathic serial killer, and 60% tagged the killer as not believing in any gods, compared to 30 percent who branded him a religious believer.
*Why it matters:* Even as the world becomes increasingly secular, people in very diverse societies across the globe still generally view belief in a god as preventative of extremely immoral actions. *Though humanity's core moral norms tend to largely be universal and independent from religious convictions, centuries of overwhelming religious belief still impact our collective view on morality.*


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 27, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> Thx Old; however, on what would 'bad' be based on for the Atheist?
> Allow me to again comment ...
> my inquiries have nothing to do with a comparison with any other ideologies ...
> i.e., just trying to understand Atheism as a standalone.



IMHO "bad" is different for everyone no matter what religion (or lack of) they practice. Of course, some things are so bad that nearly 100 percent of humanity agrees they are bad, but for the most part there is a lot of grey area depending on circumstances, etc. etc.

For those who posit that "morality" comes from the Bible (not saying anyone in this thread does) I would say that much of what God himself does - or condones in his behalf - is not moral and is bad, bad, bad. I'm not buying the "humans just can't understand God" excuse. It seems to me that God practices a lot of "do as I say, not as I do" in the Bible. 

But then again, I posit that humans told the stories that would become the Bible so what should we expect?


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## ambush80 (Jun 27, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> For the Atheist can there be 'good' &/or 'evil?'



I meant to respond in your last thread about agnostic vs. atheist.  Since no one can know all the facts, there's no way to be certain of anything.  Without ALL the information, agnosticism is the only proper description of anyone's understanding of anything.  Even so, we can say, for all practical purposes, that there is no Santa Clause.  That makes us A-Santaist.  If you don't believe in Bigfoot, you are an A-Bigifootist, even if you must admit that you don't know for certain.  Those beliefs may or may not inform your beliefs on any other matter.

Good and evil are constructs; words that represent ideas that describe values which  change depending on time, place and circumstance.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 27, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> IMHO "bad" is different for everyone no matter what religion (or lack of) they practice. Of course, some things are so bad that nearly 100 percent of humanity agrees they are bad, but for the most part there is a lot of grey area depending on circumstances, etc. etc.
> 
> For those who posit that "morality" comes from the Bible (not saying anyone in this thread does) I would say that much of what God himself does - or condones in his behalf - is not moral and is bad, bad, bad. I'm not buying the "humans just can't understand God" excuse. It seems to me that God practices a lot of "do as I say, not as I do" in the Bible.
> 
> BBut then again, I posit that humans told the stories that would become the Bible so what should we expect?





> but then again, I posit that humans told the stories that would become the Bible so what should we expect?


Yep.
Took me a while to go from -
"God sounds like a psycho" to 
"The dudes who wrote these stories make God sound like a psycho".
Theres a huge difference.


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## ambush80 (Jun 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Yep.
> Took me a while to go from -
> "God sounds like a psycho" to
> "The dudes who wrote these stories make God sound like a psycho".
> Theres a huge difference.



Behavior considered psychotic back then was different than it is now


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Yep.
> Took me a while to go from -
> "God sounds like a psycho" to
> "The dudes who wrote these stories make God sound like a psycho".
> Theres a huge difference.



I have a theory that God was just a super-sized version of the bronze age males who created him. Thus, God's emotions & character would be just like theirs - angry, jealous, tribal, violent, etc. with occasional hints of mercy, empathy, etc. However, God would be angrier, more bloodthirsty, mysogynistic, deadlier, and so on. He was way, way "larger than life" because he had to be better than all the other gods of the time, and of course the mere mortals he ruled over.


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## CarolinaDawg (Jun 28, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> First -
> Alot of your questions start with "For the Atheist". Im answering but consider myself Agnostic. If thats ok......
> Good and Evil are descriptive words. I dont think A/As consider their meanings to originate in the same place as Christians.
> "Good" - Helping an old lady across the street.
> ...


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## WaltL1 (Jun 28, 2022)

First - 
Ive never claimed we (humans) "came from the Big Bang".


> So where did good and evil originate?


A mix of the society we live in and personal beliefs pretty much dictate what is described as good or evil. And that can and has differed over time and location of the society you live in. 


> Where did love come from?


A chemical reaction in our brains. It too changes. Simple example is you start out loving your wife. After she wipes out your bank account, takes your dog and runs off with the pool boy you probably wont feel the same way. Different chemical reaction (feelings) in your brain.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 28, 2022)

Israel said:


> Ahh! so the key is to not have a pool!


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## 660griz (Jun 28, 2022)

Israel said:


> Ahh! so the key is to not have a pool!


Or, take care of it yourself and not have a pool boy.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 28, 2022)

660griz said:


> Or, take care of it yourself and not have a pool boy.


Or dont have a wife, have a pool and have lots of pool parties


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## RegularJoe (Jun 28, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> IMHO "bad" is different for everyone no matter what religion (or lack of) they practice. Of course, some things are so bad that nearly 100 percent of humanity agrees they are bad, but for the most part there is a lot of grey area depending on circumstances, etc. etc.


 Thx.


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 28, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Or dont have a wife, have a pool and have lots of pool parties



Hugh Hefner seemed to have a good handle on this lifestyle!


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## RegularJoe (Jun 29, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> So where did good and evil originate?....


Would 'good' and / or 'bad' have been something that the Atheist would say 'evolved' as man 'evolved' because it helped man 'evolve' by virtue of it enabling him to be more fit than other beings?


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## RegularJoe (Jun 29, 2022)

The "Old Cherokee's Story on the Two Wolves, One 'Good' & the Other 'Evil.'

_One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people._​_ He said, "My son, the battle is between two wolves inside us all._

_"One is Evil - It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego._

_"The other is Good - It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith."_

_The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: "Which wolf wins?"_

_The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."_


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## 660griz (Jun 29, 2022)

CarolinaDawg said:


> So where did good and evil originate?


With the first humans.


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 29, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> Would 'good' and / or 'bad' have been something that the Atheist would say 'evolved' as man 'evolved' because it helped man 'evolve' by virtue of it enabling him to be more fit than other beings?


 
I think that the concepts of good & evil are just like all the other abstract concepts that developed in the evolving human(ish) brain. Would we as a species be extinct without these concepts? We can only speculate. 

Religions (many very much steeped in good versus evil content) are effective in societal cohesion & unity * which would have been extremely important for early human survival. Like they say, "no man is an island" and humans evolved to be social animals just like the other higher primates. 

*  social cohesion & unity is great on a small scale. But when there are millions/billions of members of different religions with greatly conflicting viewpoints, that becomes problematic.


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## RegularJoe (Jun 30, 2022)

Given that it is okay to assume that what good and/or evil actually is _can_ vary some between individuals and/or groups of people, and
given that some of us only want to believe in that which has hard evidence and can be thereby proven,
can what is good and/or evil be definitively proven with hard evidence?


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## 660griz (Jun 30, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> can what is good and/or evil be definitively proven with hard evidence?


Yes.


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 30, 2022)

660griz said:


> Yes.



Could you provide some examples please?


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## 660griz (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Could you provide some examples please?


I will provide a definition. 

adjective. *morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked*: evil deeds; an evil life. harmful; detrimental: evil laws. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
Evil is typically defined as *any undesired state of affairs* and is generally considered to include both moral evil, acts done by humans, and natural evil, which includes pain and suffering that results from natural disasters, diseases, or genetic defects.

Prisons contain child molesters and murderers. We can only assume there was evidence of their crime that got them there. I consider child molestation evil. Therefore, hard evidence of evil. 
*Florida man described as ‘evil in the flesh’ randomly kills family of 4, including baby*
Bryan Riley, 33, is accused of randomly gunning down a family of four in the middle of the night.  
Do you need some good examples?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> I will provide a definition.
> 
> adjective. *morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked*: evil deeds; an evil life. harmful; detrimental: evil laws. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
> Evil is typically defined as *any undesired state of affairs* and is generally considered to include both moral evil, acts done by humans, and natural evil, which includes pain and suffering that results from natural disasters, diseases, or genetic defects.
> ...



I agree these would be examples of "evil" to 99.9 percent of the world, but there will always be a few people who will rationalize any evil act. 

I hate to use the Bible as an example because it's so overused, but the idea of God FLOODING THE ENTIRE WORLD including innocent babies & children because there was too much "evil" in the world makes my head and my irony meter explode!


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## RegularJoe (Jul 1, 2022)

'Evil,' the noun, 
as well as, 'good,' the noun, 
can vary from one group of humans to another, no?


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## WaltL1 (Jul 1, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> 'Evil,' the noun,
> as well as, 'good,' the noun,
> can vary from one group of humans to another, no?


I would say there are a wide range of variances. Groups, cultures, time frames, circumstances, individual views etc.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I agree these would be examples of "evil" to 99.9 percent of the world, but there will always be a few people who will rationalize any evil act.
> 
> I hate to use the Bible as an example because it's so overused, but the idea of God FLOODING THE ENTIRE WORLD including innocent babies & children because there was too much "evil" in the world makes my head and my irony meter explode!


Never could wrap my head around the Flood, even as a believer.
Still have trouble with how Christians that I know to be good people can justify it.
Ive come to accept its just something I'll never understand.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Never could wrap my head around the Flood, even as a believer.
> Still have trouble with how Christians that I know to be good people can justify it.
> Ive come to accept its just something I'll never understand.



Even if I could suspend disbelief long enough to believe the logistics of the Flood story, it doesn't address *GOD'S MORALS AND CHARACTER!* Would you want God as your next-door neighbor? The guy who's default setting is "KILL EM' ALL! LET ME SORT EM' OUT!"?  The guy who can do *all things *and all at the same time and be everywhere at the same time, but can't snatch your toddler out of a swimming pool
or out of a hot car?


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## 660griz (Jul 1, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> 'Evil,' the noun,
> as well as, 'good,' the noun,
> can vary from one group of humans to another, no?


Yes.


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## 660griz (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I agree these would be examples of "evil" to 99.9 percent of the world, but there will always be a few people who will rationalize any evil act.
> 
> I hate to use the Bible as an example because it's so overused, but the idea of God FLOODING THE ENTIRE WORLD including innocent babies & children because there was too much "evil" in the world makes my head and my irony meter explode!


I was asked to provide examples for 'me'. I can't speak for others around the world.
I thought we had already established evil and good vary depending on culture, etc. Sorry, I wasn't more clear.

The flood was another example I was going to give but, to me it is kinda like lamenting about how bad the wolf was for eating Red Riding Hood's granny. Both only happened in a story. Now, to folks that think God doesn't make mistakes and the Bible is true, well, that story kills two birds with one stone.
Oh, and forgot about being a loving God. 3 birds with one stone.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> I was asked to provide examples for 'me'. I can't speak for others around the world.
> I thought we had already established evil and good vary depending on culture, etc. Sorry, I wasn't more clear.
> 
> The flood was another example I was going to give but, to me it is kinda like lamenting about how bad the wolf was for eating Red Riding Hood's granny. Both only happened in a story. Now, to folks that think God doesn't make mistakes and the Bible is true, well, that story kills two birds with one stone.
> Oh, and forgot about being a loving God. 3 birds with one stone.



Maybe he is a loving God, but his version of "tough love" is a little over-the-top. 
Yes, thankfully the worldwide Flood was just a story, because the Asians farming rice and the Egyptians establishing a great empire and the Eskimos developing a culture that can explore & survive in the harsh Arctic conditions would have really been thrown a curveball. 

The Flood would be a perfect example of a "miracle" that does indeed have hard evidence against it happening because there is* zero evidence *that all civilizations & cultures & population centers dating back to the emergence of humans (since to be fair the Bible doesn't give an exact date of the Flood) were destroyed.


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## RegularJoe (Jul 15, 2022)

Based on the above, I have learned that 
some Atheists are 'fatalists' and some are not ... 
building on that, if I have 'that' right : ),
along with the definition of 'fatalist' per https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fatalist - 

"(1,) a person who believes that _all_ events are _inevitable_, 
so _one’s choices and actions make no difference_; 

(2.) ..._all_ events are _naturally_ predetermined or subject to fate .."

Then, allow me to ask this a little more informed and therefore _a little more specific_ question compared to my more general Original Post:

For the Atheist that _is_ a 'fatalist,' can there be 'good' and/or 'evil?


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## bullethead (Jul 15, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> Based on the above, I have learned that
> some Atheists are 'fatalists' and some are not ...
> building on that, if I have 'that' right : ),
> along with the definition of 'fatalist' per https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fatalist -
> ...


Sure there can be good and evil, I just do not think there is a figurehead for each as if it were teams. And I also think that except for the most extreme ends of the spectrum good and evil are relative terms that depend on many determining factors.

*Edited for typo


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## RegularJoe (Jul 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Sure there can be good and evil,..


Thx Bullet.  I am struggling with how come good and /or evil 
(or any subjective human thing) 
would even exist if _all_ is fate, aka 100% cause > effect?


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## bullethead (Jul 16, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> Thx Bullet.  I am struggling with how come good and /or evil
> (or any subjective human thing)
> would even exist if _all_ is fate, aka 100% cause > effect?


I am convinced that good and evil are human terms to describe things that we either like or don't like.
Probably most times either word is used it is being overused incorrectly.

Like describing a pitbull that charges the fence barking and snarling as "evil". No, thats what a lot of animals do when they protect their territory.
Hardly evil unless the dog forms into a black mist at midnight and floats around the town smothering new borns in their cribs and leaves a milkbone behind as it's call sign. Then..yeah...evil.


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## RegularJoe (Jul 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I am convinced that good and evil are human terms to describe things that we either like or don't like***.
> Probably most times either word is used it is being overused incorrectly.
> ...


So may I understand that good / evil is something that I 'sense' 
(_not_ intending to say that you used the word 'sense' 
... I am just trying to confirm that my understanding is consistent with what it looks to me like you penned ~ ***"...something I like or don't like..."), 
and that another person may not 'sense' as such at all, 
and both folks have it right - 
cause it is all about whether or not each of the aforementioned persons determines in his / her own mind that it is good, evil, or : ) neither?


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## WaltL1 (Jul 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I am convinced that good and evil are human terms to describe things that we either like or don't like.
> Probably most times either word is used it is being overused incorrectly.
> 
> Like describing a pitbull that charges the fence barking and snarling as "evil". No, thats what a lot of animals do when they protect their territory.
> Hardly evil unless the dog forms into a black mist at midnight and floats around the town smothering new borns in their cribs and leaves a milkbone behind as it's call sign. Then..yeah...evil.





> Like describing a pitbull that charges the fence barking and snarling as "evil".


Which the owner might describe as "good" as it keeps the bad guys away.
All depends on which side of the fence you are on.


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## Ruger#3 (Jul 16, 2022)

Good discussion……

Strikes me that as a Christian I’m going to do evil, sin, as I’m fallible. The difference is Christians dispose of the burden of guilt through faith. I make no assumption how the atheist finds peace with their conduct when they do a bad thing. I’m certain not being Christian does not prevent a knowing good and evil.

The thresholds of what’s good and evil are set by social norms outside religion. Conduct we now say is bad would be acceptable in other societies.


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## bullethead (Jul 16, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> So may I understand that good / evil is something that I 'sense'
> (_not_ intending to say that you used the word 'sense'
> ... I am just trying to confirm that my understanding is consistent with what it looks to me like you penned ~ ***"...something I like or don't like..."),
> and that another person may not 'sense' as such at all,
> ...


Could be, like with most things human,  it is an individual interpretation


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## WaltL1 (Jul 16, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Good discussion……
> 
> Strikes me that as a Christian I’m going to do evil, sin, as I’m fallible. The difference is Christians dispose of the burden of guilt through faith. I make no assumption how the atheist finds peace with their conduct when they do a bad thing. I’m certain not being Christian does not prevent a knowing good and evil.
> 
> The thresholds of what’s good and evil are set by social norms outside religion. Conduct we now say is bad would be acceptable in other societies.


Do you consider ALL sin to be evil?
Or is there a scale? Telling a little white lie as opposed to beating the elderly for example?


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## bullethead (Jul 16, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Good discussion……
> 
> Strikes me that as a Christian I’m going to do evil, sin, as I’m fallible. The difference is Christians dispose of the burden of guilt through faith. I make no assumption how the atheist finds peace with their conduct when they do a bad thing. I’m certain not being Christian does not prevent a knowing good and evil.
> 
> The thresholds of what’s good and evil are set by social norms outside religion. Conduct we now say is bad would be acceptable in other societies.


The Atheist goes down back and rubs their guilt away on an old stump. The dry highly absorbent wood draws out the bad feelings where they travel through the old dead roots into the sediment where the bad feelings are cleansed through filtration and only the good feelings remain. Those good feelings are absorbed into plants where they are redistributed back into the Godless through eating plants or animals that have eaten the plants.
Its a faith based system too.

*disclaimer
The above is merely a satirical account made to show how ridiculous beleifs are. The author in no way intends to offend anyone. 
No stumps were rubbed in the making of that paragraph.


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## Ruger#3 (Jul 16, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Do you consider ALL sin to be evil?
> Or is there a scale? Telling a little white lie as opposed to beating the elderly for example?



All bad conduct gets between one and a close relationship with God. To your point, looking at hawt women lustfully is wrong and impedes a closer relationship with God. That’s how it works in my faith. Hope that answers without being preachy.


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## bullethead (Jul 16, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> All bad conduct gets between one and a close relationship with God. To your point, looking at hawt women lustfully is wrong and impedes a closer relationship with God. That’s how it works in my faith. Hope that answers without being preachy.


So do you still look at hawt women and then make amends?
Or do you just not ever look at any woman so as to not be able to judge her hawtness and place a wedge between you and God?


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## Ruger#3 (Jul 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> So do you still look at hawt women and then make amends?
> Or do you just not ever look at any woman so as to not be able to judge her hawtness and place a wedge between you and God?



I’m fallible, so I make amends. She was hawt by the way.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 16, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> All bad conduct gets between one and a close relationship with God. To your point, looking at hawt women lustfully is wrong and impedes a closer relationship with God. That’s how it works in my faith. Hope that answers without being preachy.


Not preachy at all.
I think in a way it points how believer and non believer may view the word "evil".


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## Ruger#3 (Jul 16, 2022)

Couple hundred years ago a woman or child captured by Indians may of been slaughtered. Todays societal standards would call that evil. In the Indians mind they were a burden without a useful purpose so killing the family of an enemy was ok.


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## RegularJoe (Jul 16, 2022)

In light of the above, mark me down for....
for the 'fatalist' type of Atheist that 'good / evil' can exist in his / her mind 
_and_ that it can be different than how 'good / evil' is perceived by other 'fatalist' type Atheists.
Which, is also (for me) to say, 
I can not comprehend any reason these mental perceptions have any value since for the 'fatalist' one _might_ make the, for example, most sensible 'fatalist' Atheistic comment:
' ..... life is like a chemistry set. Only what can happen will happen.'


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## WaltL1 (Jul 16, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Couple hundred years ago a woman or child captured by Indians may of been slaughtered. Todays societal standards would call that evil. In the Indians mind they were a burden without a useful purpose so killing the family of an enemy was ok.


Great example of how morals/good/evil changes over time/geography/cultures etc.


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## bullethead (Jul 16, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> I’m fallible, so I make amends. She was hawt by the way.


Exactly
Not much of a deterrent when saying a little sumpin-sumpin after the facts is all it takes.
To expound upon Walt's question...where is your cut-off line on salty deeds? Like checking a south bound woman out is acceptable as long as you say your peace with God but then what "level" of infraction is just a no'no where a "please forgive me" just doesn't cut it?
And
Are those lines in the sand universal or individually set?
Like someone may stop at gazing at a hawt woman while the next guy might diddle hawt women as long as he asks for forgiveness.  Are both equally forgivable and where does forgiveness end?


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## Ruger#3 (Jul 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Exactly
> Not much of a deterrent when saying a little sumpin-sumpin after the facts is all it takes.
> To expound upon Walt's question...where is your cut-off line on salty deeds? Like checking a south bound woman out is acceptable as long as you say your peace with God but then what "level" of infraction is just a no'no where a "please forgive me" just doesn't cut it?
> And
> ...



This varies by faiths, so can only answer for me. I believe that God knows your sincerity, there’s no majic wand that makes the sin go away. If one is not sincere in the contrition your wasting your time.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 16, 2022)

Israel said:


> Oh, man! What a question!
> 
> Kinda glad I don't have to approach you as one unfamiliar with
> 
> ...


Which of course leads to the question.... why would God create man to be physically attracted to a woman and then penalize him for doing it?
From where I sit it is just man made nonsense. If God is God he's got to be smart enough to know man is gonna look. Has no choice but to look. He made him that way.


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## bullethead (Jul 16, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> This varies by faiths, so can only answer for me. I believe that God knows your sincerity, there’s no majic wand that makes the sin go away. If one is not sincere in the contrition your wasting your time.


Wouldn't repetitive actions water down the sincerity?
Like how many times can a guy say sorry for checkin out the back side of some Jordash cut off jeans?


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## Ruger#3 (Jul 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Wouldn't repetitive actions water down the sincerity?
> Like how many times can a guy say sorry for checkin out the back side of some Jordash cut off jeans?



Absolutely correct, one cannot wash, rinse, repeat and be sincere. I think we both can see that.


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## bullethead (Jul 16, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Which of course leads to the question.... why would God create man to be physically attracted to a woman and then penalize him for doing it?
> From where I sit it is just man made nonsense. If God is God he's got to be smart enough to know man is gonna look. Has no choice but to look. He made him that way.


Or, regarding certain matters would God even care?
Virgin/young woman already has a boyfriend/Holy Spirit hookup in the middle of the night/= baby.
I mean something had to catch his eye.


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## bullethead (Jul 16, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Absolutely correct, one cannot wash, rinse, repeat and be sincere. I think we both can see that.


If you were to guess at how many......
Nevermind


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## WaltL1 (Jul 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Wouldn't repetitive actions water down the sincerity?
> Like how many times can a guy say sorry for checkin out the back side of some Jordash cut off jeans?


Seems to me man would just be enjoying one of God's creations.
Maybe God actually takes a bow as opposed to handing out punishment.


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## bullethead (Jul 16, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Seems to me man would just be enjoying one of God's creations.
> Maybe God actually takes a bow as opposed to handig out punishment.


That seems possible but not as we are led to believe.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> That seems possible but not as we are led to believe.


And there is the million dollar issue.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 16, 2022)

okay, the two choices Regular Joe gave were confusing. Choice 1 said


RegularJoe said:


> Thx Bullet.  I am struggling with how come good and /or evil
> (or any subjective human thing)
> would even exist if _all_ is fate, aka 100% cause > effect?



"Fate" is not necessarily cause & effect. They are actually quite different. Let me explain:

the development of events beyond a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power. - dictionary definition as a noun

be destined to happen, turn out, or act in a particular way.
"the regime was fated to end badly" - dictionary definition as a verb


the principle of causation.
"the post-Cartesian attempt to see everything as governed by simple laws of cause and effect"

the operation or relation of a cause and its effect.
"cause and effect play an important part in the universe" - dictionary descriptions
Thus, my take on it is "fate" implies a supernatural "plan" that is beyond our control.
In other words, the outcome of X is set in stone.

"cause and effect" however would imply that our human actions & decisions will very likely (more often than not) affect the outcome of X.

Bottom line the universe is very random and unfolding in "real time" and the possibilities involving X are only limited by the very real laws of physics & probability.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> So do you still look at hawt women and then make amends?
> Or do you just not ever look at any woman so as to not be able to judge her hawtness and place a wedge between you and God?



I look at hawt women and make no amends, because I don't believe there is any supernatural force "reading my mind" to begin with. 

But this brings up a VERY interesting point that AFAIK hasn't been addressed yet, which is how the concept of "sin" AKA "evil" can be influenced by non-spiritual/scientific factors. Let me preach on it! 

Let's say Gary Smith - Christian believer - struggles with being violent/having a short temper. Gary also is constantly tempted with - and sometimes indulges in - fornication.
Gary also is a risk taker and shoplifts from time-to-time.
Bottom line Gary struggles with "sin" more than the average Christian despite attending church & praying to control his urges & whatnot. Gary would like to live a more "godly" life and not sin quite so much. 

Now imagine that Gary is examined by a doctor, and his testosterone level is through-the-roof! He has a testosterone level of Biblical proportions! 
So, Gary begins hormone therapy (and continues his church attendance & prayers) and within a short time Gary is a good boy! His fornication urges are almost gone, he's calm and passive, and very level-headed and rarely takes risks and doesn't shoplift.

Is Gary's transformation from super-sinner/evil to model well-behaved Christian a result of supernatural causes or scientific causes? Bear in mind if Gary stops the hormone therapy (but continues his church & prayer routines) he will once again be struggling - and often failing - in his quest to live a better Christian life.
Any thoughts about my fictional - but very realistic - scenario?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 16, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Which of course leads to the question.... why would God create man to be physically attracted to a woman and then penalize him for doing it?
> From where I sit it is just man made nonsense. If God is God he's got to be smart enough to know man is gonna look. Has no choice but to look. He made him that way.



I agree! Humans (and a lot of other primates) are hard-wired through millions of years of evolution for adult males to look at adult females as potential mates, and adult females to look at adult males - even if only looking at their status - as potential mates. If this was not the case humans would probably be extinct by now. For those who don't believe that humans & chimps evolved from a common ancestor, research (with an open mind, from actual scientific sources) just how much our mating motivations & behaviors are similar. Sin exists only in the human imagination.


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## bullethead (Jul 16, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I look at hawt women and make no amends, because I don't believe there is any supernatural force "reading my mind" to begin with.
> 
> But this brings up a VERY interesting point that AFAIK hasn't been addressed yet, which is how the concept of "sin" AKA "evil" can be influenced by non-spiritual/scientific factors. Let me preach on it!
> 
> ...


Many believers can only relate on a personal level but apply it across the spectrum universally. Problem is that there is so much variation individually and so many individuals hold others accountable to their standards that there are no universal standards.


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## bullethead (Jul 16, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I agree! Humans (and a lot of other primates) are hard-wired through millions of years of evolution for adult males to look at adult females as potential mates, and adult females to look at adult males - even if only looking at their status - as potential mates. If this was not the case humans would probably be extinct by now. For those who don't believe that humans & chimps evolved from a common ancestor, research (with an open mind, from actual scientific sources) just how much our mating motivations & behaviors are similar. Sin exists only in the human imagination.


Courtship and manners were less than Chivalrous back in the day also. Evolution is not just about physical change.
I can't imagine that dinner and a movie coincides with some rural tribes even today. It may be more to the point.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 16, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Courtship and manners were less than Chivalrous back in the day also. Evolution is not just about physical change.
> I can't imagine that dinner and a movie coincides with some rural tribes even today. It may be more to the point.



Speaking of evolution being cultural, we can prove this just by reading the Old Testament. I'm sure much of the world was incredibly brutal and misogynistic around this time too, or at some point in their history. Some parts of the world are still like that. Speaking of:

I saw some video with Neil DeGrasse Tyson and he was talking about how quite a few centuries ago the Muslim's were far ahead of Europe and the sandbox (to include what would someday be Israel) in the areas of math, science, technology etc. But then some hard-core fundamentalist Muslim leader did a 180 and stopped all education and advancement, saying all science was evil, etc. etc. and made Islam the only focus 24/7 so government, education, etc. were under a strict, draconian version of Islam. 

Within a few generations all advancement was stopped, and they got further & further behind the rest of the world. Fast forward to today and Jews are 5 percent of the world population but win 25 percent of the Nobel Prizes. 
The Islamic world has ZERO Nobel Prize winners. Genetically much of the Arab/sandbox people and the Jews are very close. So why the difference in intellectual performance? The Jews have an open, mostly secular, free society that encourages education & advancement, and the Muslim world have an oppressive & insular theocracy for the most part. Those individual countries that are not so oppressive anymore are sadly very far behind the developed world.


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## RegularJoe (Jul 16, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> okay, the two choices Regular Joe gave were confusing. Choice 1 said
> 
> "Fate" is not necessarily cause & effect. They are actually quite different. Let me explain:
> 
> ...


You and I are using dictionaries that provide importantly different definitions of the noun 'fate' / 'fatalist.'

As I stated in Post No. 42 above:
" https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fatalist -

"(1,) a person who believes that _all_ events are _inevitable_,
so _one’s choices and actions make no difference_;

(2.) ..._all_ events are _naturally_ predetermined or subject to fate .."  "

The internet based one I used above (& others to which I have referred since reading your post) has (have) zero to do with anything supernatural ... in fact, the definitions I can find are 100% specifically and only about & limited to natural.

Not saying your dictionary is wrong, merely pointing out the surprising differences.


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## Ruger#3 (Jul 16, 2022)

I do not for a second believe nonbelievers are less cognizant of good and evil. One of my best friends fell into that category. Lived a good life, treat others with kindness and generosity. One of the best mechanics and creative fabricators I’ve known. To a person, when we stood at his grave side we all thought we lost a good man.

Christians in the group had an additional sadness, just another part of love and friendship.


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## dusty200001 (Jul 16, 2022)

Some of the biggest thieving liars I ever known are true Christian’s and don’t miss one day of church.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 16, 2022)

dusty200001 said:


> Some of the biggest thieving liars I ever known are true Christian’s and don’t miss one day of church.


 
they can't miss church, they are "hiding in plain sight" and have keep up that false front of legitimacy.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 16, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> You and I are using dictionaries that provide importantly different definitions of the noun 'fate' / 'fatalist.'
> 
> As I stated in Post No. 42 above:
> " https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fatalist -
> ...



To clear up my stance, I feel that since there is nobody - other than myself & my family - looking out for me, and that there is no supernatural plan against me nor anyone else, events can & will play out in a variety of ways. There is no good or evil force, only people who can help me & people that can harm me, so I try to avoid the people that can harm me. Eventually my luck will run out and I will cease to exist, like every other human on Earth with zero exceptions. Why should humans live forever if the rest of the species do not? That just doesn't make sense.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 17, 2022)

Israel said:


> What do you mean in
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean species _other_ _than man_...or _some of _the "man" species?



 Sorry I meant the plural of "species". Why would humans live forever AKA "the afterlife" when all the other animals do not? The same basic laws of science apply to every living thing that I know of: take in energy, and keep yourself alive long enough to make a copy of yourself. Every species has their unique talents, but we all have to do these basic things. I read a great quote about life once:

"We are DNA with add-ons."  One human add-on is a limitless imagination.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 17, 2022)

Israel said:


> Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> Regardless of what you may hear or have heard from others and since the point has been raised...I don't believe you will find I hold (or have held) any position in opposition to 'the rest' of creation's restoration.



So.....you're saying that humans are the only species that will be "restored" meaning experience an afterlife? If that's what you are saying, that would make sense, since only humans know right from wrong thus reward or punishment for their actions would be dependent on their chosen behavior while on the planet.


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## RegularJoe (Jul 17, 2022)

dusty200001 said:


> Some of the biggest thieving liars I ever known are true Christian’s and don’t miss one day of church





oldfella1962 said:


> they can't miss church, they are "hiding in plain sight" and have keep up that false front of legitimacy.


What better place for folks behaving as such than in a church that is Bible believing, teaching and practicing?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 17, 2022)

Israel said:


> I am saying...if you can understand this in any part as generating a consideration of "what is being said?"
> 
> For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only _they_, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, _to wit_, the redemption of our body.
> 
> ...



That's just the carnival ride we are all on - eat until you get eaten. It's instinct to avoid death, even if you don't fear it - whether out of lack of reasoning ability to fear it, or the ability to overcome your fear of death to accomplish the task at hand.


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## bullethead (Jul 17, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> What better place for folks behaving as such than in a church that is Bible believing, teaching and practicing?


Teaching somewhat possibly ...idk about the other two.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 18, 2022)

Nor have I not learned that it is impossible for me to convince any man who, beholding what lay in both photos below and is convinced they are both in _all ways_ equal...that perhaps they are not. Actually, one photo says it more eloquently. 










 and if one may think I am reaching toward a self evidence of a something, that too would be impossible for me to conclude to anyone. - Israel

I don't get it. One picture is hands holding dirt, the other picture is a guy holding up his hands with nothing in them. What am I missing here?


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## bullethead (Jul 18, 2022)

Dirt and lots of water make mud.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Dirt and lots of water make mud.



Another factor in bronze age humans thinking we come from dirt is the fact that since the dawn of mankind (and Neanderthals and probably other homo genus members) many tribes & societies buried people in dirt when they died. It would stand to reason that if you buried someone in the dirt and sometime later (probably by erosion or animals exposing the bodies or whatever) said dirt was exposed and nothing but bones or a body in decomposition was found - the bodies went back to where they came (the dirt) so dirt could be responsible to some degree for producing new bodies.

Hey, I have a primitive brain, so I have a talent for thinking like one! 

Sidenote I was WAY off on my guess about what your pictures conveyed. 
I figured the hands with dirt would symbolize "something" or "reality" while the empty hands would symbolize the infinite possibilities of the human imagination. It could be dirt, gold, a deadly virus, or anything we can imagine it to be.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Dirt and lots of water make mud.



Bronze age carpet cleaners used to use that as part of their sales pitch. Sidenote on the TV show "TAXI" Reverend Jim Ignatowski was temporarily working as a door-to-door salesman. I won't ruin it for anybody. 
Just you tube *TAXI Jim the salesman *and watch the short clip to the very end.


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## bullethead (Jul 18, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Bronze age carpet cleaners used to use that as part of their sales pitch. Sidenote on the TV show "TAXI" Reverend Jim Ignatowski was temporarily working as a door-to-door salesman. I won't ruin it for anybody.
> Just you tube *TAXI Jim the salesman *and watch the short clip to the very end.


Rev Jim at the DMV taking his written drivers test is one of my all time favorites.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Rev Jim at the DMV taking his written drivers test is one of my all time favorites.



Yes it was! "Slow down!"  "Whaaaaat doeeessss....."   Jim was by far my favorite character. Not to brag, but I can do a great Jim impersonation.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 18, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Rev Jim at the DMV taking his written drivers test is one of my all time favorites.


Definitely!
What does a yellow light mean?
Slow down.
Ok. whaaaat dooooes a yellowwww liiiight meeeean?
Slow down.
Ok. whhhhaaaaaaaat dooooooooeeees a yellooooooooow........
Freakin hilarious!
The one where Jim goes from college preppie to burned out Jim is awesome too.


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## ambush80 (Jul 18, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Definitely!
> What does a yellow light mean?
> Slow down.
> Ok. whaaaat dooooes a yellowwww liiiight meeeean?
> ...



"One toke over the line, sweet Jesus...."


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## ambush80 (Jul 19, 2022)

Israel said:


> Hey, since you weren't too shy to reference your sig line fairly recently (which I have appreciated since first seeing) I thought you might want to consider Malachi 2:3, also.
> 
> It's the kinda plain talkin' a coupla guys in a boat might indulge and enjoy. Maybe too plain.



That's a pretty good one.  Maybe this could become a thread.  Try to find and compile all the stuff in the Bible that would make 12 year old boys laugh.  The daughters of Lott in the cave come to mind.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 19, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> That's a pretty good one.  Maybe this could become a thread.  Try to find and compile all the stuff in the Bible that would make 12 year old boys laugh.  The daughters of Lott in the cave come to mind.



Indeed, Lot's daughters are "Dear Penthouse Forum" level of naughty! 
But I like their thinking: we'll never find another man to mate with! Really? Well not with that attitude, and not if you are too lazy to leave your cave! Sodom & Gomorrah got destroyed, but not any other nearby towns which are FILLED WITH MEN!


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## ambush80 (Jul 20, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Indeed, Lot's daughters are "Dear Penthouse Forum" level of naughty!
> But I like their thinking: we'll never find another man to mate with! Really? Well not with that attitude, and not if you are too lazy to leave your cave! Sodom & Gomorrah got destroyed, but not any other nearby towns which are FILLED WITH MEN!



It doesn't seem like people of that time period had a complete idea of what "The Whole World" meant.  How could they?  It's completely reasonable that a large local event might be misconstrued as global.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 20, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> It doesn't seem like people of that time period had a complete idea of what "The Whole World" meant.  How could they?  It's completely reasonable that a large local event might be misconstrued as global.



I totally agree. I'm just saying the Lot story (aside from the supernatural elements) doesn't pass the smell test. Lot and his daughters are in a cave, a safe place from the Sodom & Gomorrah devastation. Makes sense so far. But wouldn't their food & water running out be the immediate concern? I would think Lot would do some (limited at first) recon to see if there's any other nearby devastation or damage. *
I'm sure he would quickly realize that there are nearby villages intact. Thus, his daughters would not have to have sex with Lot. 

* the Bible being the Bible, most likely Lot would send out one of his daughters to recon the area and if they never came back, I guess it still isn't safe to leave the cave.
Sidenote notice how Lot's wife got turned into a pillar of salt, but the rest of the family didn't bat an eye?  Great family values in the Bible days!


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