# Pope says Christians and Muslims believe in the same God



## justthinking

http://www.oecumene.radiovaticana.org/en1/Articolo.asp?c=170568

29/11/2007 14.30.08

Pope's Response to 138 Muslim Scolars

(29 Nov 07 - RV) Pope Benedict XVI has replied to the letter written by 138 Muslim scholars to Christian Leaders, inviting a group of them to meet with him here in the Vatican. 

The letter is addressed to Jordanian Prince Ghazi bin Muhammad bin Talal, and signed by Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone. In it the Pope expresses his deep appreciation for the positive spirit which inspired the text from Muslim scholars and its call for a common commitment to promoting peace in the world.

*While it is important not to ignore or down play the difference between Christians and Muslims, the Pope says “we can and therefore should look to what unites us, namely, belief in the one God, the provident Creator and universal Judge”.*

*[WRONG.WRONG.WRONG.WRONG.WRONG!]*

Reiterating his words to representatives of Some Muslim Communities in Cologne, at the beginning of his pontificate, the pope stressed “we must not yield to the negative pressures in our midst, but must affirm the values of mutual respect, solidarity and peace. Adding there is plenty of scope for acting together in the service of fundamental moral values”.

“The common ground between the two faiths”, he says “allows us to base dialogue on respect for the dignity of every human person on the objective knowledge of the other’s religion, on the sharing of religious experience and, finally, on common commitment to promoting mutual respect and acceptance among the younger generation”. 
 The letter concludes with an invitation to the Jordanian Prince and to a select group of the Muslim signatories for a papal audience to encourage such initiatives. 

The Pope also proposes setting up meetings between the Muslim scholars and Vatican organisations such as the Pontifical council for Inter Religious Dialogue, the Pontifical Institute for Arabic and Islamic Studies and the Pontifical Gregorian University.


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## PWalls

Too much totally wrong in that article. I hope for Catholic's sake that the article is false.


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## Double Barrel BB

*Pope invites senior Muslims to Vatican meeting*

Another source for the article....

*Pope invites senior Muslims to Vatican meeting*

Pope Benedict XVI invited a delegation of senior Muslim personalities, who signed an appeal for greater dialogue between religions, to a meeting at the Vatican, according to a letter released Thursday. 

The pope praised the "positive spirit" behind the October 11 message signed by 138 top Muslims from around the world and sent to Christian leaders, said Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone in the letter sent in Pope Benedict's name. 
The pope wanted to meet a representative group of the signatories at the Vatican, he added in the letter sent to Prince Ghazi bin Muhammad bin Talal, head of the Institute for Islamic Thought in Amman. 
"The Pope has asked me to convey his gratitude to Your Royal Highness and to all who signed the letter," Bertone wrote. 
"He also wishes to express his deep appreciation for this gesture, for the positive spirit which inspired the text and for the call for a common commitment to promoting peace in the world. 
"Without ignoring or downplaying our differences as Christians and Muslims, we can and therefore should look to what unites us, namely, belief in the one God, the provident Creator and universal Judge who at the end of time will deal with each person according to his or her actions. We are all called to commit ourselves totally to him and to obey his sacred will." 

The letter said the pope "was particularly impressed by the attention given in the letter to the twofold commandment to love God and one's neighbour." 
It recalled Pope Benedict's statement in August 2005 soon after he took office that "we must not yield to the negative pressures in our midst, but must affirm the values of mutual respect, solidarity and peace. 
"The life of every human being is sacred, both for Christians and for Muslims. There is plenty of scope for us to act together in the service of fundamental moral values." 
"Such common ground allows us to base dialogue on effective respect for the dignity of every human person, on objective knowledge of the religion of the other, on the sharing of religious experience and, finally, on common commitment to promoting mutual respect and acceptance among the younger generation," the letter went on. 
"The Pope is confident that, once this is achieved, it will be possible to cooperate in a productive way in the areas of culture and society, and for the promotion of justice and peace in society and throughout the world." 
Bertone said that with a view to encouraging the "praiseworthy initiative" from the Muslim leaders, "His Holiness would be most willing to receive Your Royal Highness and a restricted group of signatories of the open letter, chosen by you. 
"At the same time, a working meeting could be organized between your delegation and the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, with the cooperation of some specialized Pontifical Institutes (such as the Pontifical Institute for Arabic and Islamic Studies and the Pontifical Gregorian University)." The precise details of these meetings could be decided later, should this proposal prove acceptable, the letter said.


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## PWalls

I'm not doubting the post DBBB. I am just saddened to see it.


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## pnome

They don't?  I thought I heard somewhere both religions worshiped the God of Abraham.


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## Double Barrel BB

PWalls said:


> I'm not doubting the post DBBB. I am just saddened to see it.


 

Just wanted to share another source.... 

DB BB


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## pnome

That's what the president says anyway: 

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=193746&page=1


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## dawg2

pnome said:


> They don't?  I thought I heard somewhere both religions worshiped the God of Abraham.



That was my understanding.  The Muslims branched and followed their prophet Mohammed while the Christians followed Jesus.


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## dawg2

Link after article...

The real controversy is whether Muslims pray to the same God as Christians and Jews. So, in the spirit of the Ramadan-Hanukkah-Christmas season, we went straight to God's biographer, or at least Jack Miles, author of God: A Biography. He noted that linguistic similarities indicated that Bush's position is correct:

Allah in Arabic is a contraction for al-ilah, "the-God," and as such is cognate with Hebrew eloh, "god" (plural of abstraction, elohim, "deity"). Linguistic technicalities aside, what matters is that back in the seventh century, the first Muslims were using the same kind of word in Arabic that the Jews were using theologically in Hebrew and using it in the same way.

http://www.slate.com/id/2092762/


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## addictedtodeer

bible:
Jesus states
Mat 10:32  So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 
Mat 10:33  but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. 

Joh 3:16  "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 
Joh 3:17  For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 
Joh 3:18  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 

Joh 10:30  I and the Father are one." 

Joh 8:58  Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." 

Koran
Verse 4:171 - "People of the Book, do not transgress the bounds of your religion. Speak nothing but the truth about Allah. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was no more than Allah's apostle and His Word which He cast to Mary: a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His apostles and do not say: "Three.' Forbear, and it shall be better for you. Allah is but one God. Allah forbid that He should have a son!"

Verse 5:74 - "The Messiah, the son of Mary, was no more than an apostle: other apostles passed away before him. His mother was a saintly woman. They both ate earthly food."

Verse 19:90 - "Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth split asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one!"

Christians= Jesus is God

Muslims= Jesus is not God

let us not insult their beliefs by trying to prove what both books so clearly show. 
For Jesus to be God the Muslims' must deny their beliefs.
For allah to be God Christians' must deny Jesus.
The only way it can work is for both to deny their beliefs or one win over the other.

I'm personally convinced that Christ will be victorious over all 
Php 2:10  so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 
Php 2:11  and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


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## dawg2

addictedtodeer said:


> bible:
> Jesus states
> Mat 10:32  So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,
> Mat 10:33  but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
> 
> Joh 3:16  "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
> Joh 3:17  For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
> Joh 3:18  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
> 
> Joh 10:30  I and the Father are one."
> 
> Joh 8:58  Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
> 
> Koran
> Verse 4:171 - "People of the Book, do not transgress the bounds of your religion. Speak nothing but the truth about Allah. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was no more than Allah's apostle and His Word which He cast to Mary: a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His apostles and do not say: "Three.' Forbear, and it shall be better for you. Allah is but one God. Allah forbid that He should have a son!"
> 
> Verse 5:74 - "The Messiah, the son of Mary, was no more than an apostle: other apostles passed away before him. His mother was a saintly woman. They both ate earthly food."
> 
> Verse 19:90 - "Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth split asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one!"
> 
> Christians= Jesus is God
> 
> Muslims= Jesus is not God
> 
> let us not insult their beliefs by trying to prove what both books so clearly show.
> For Jesus to be God the Muslims' must deny their beliefs.
> For allah to be God Christians' must deny Jesus.
> The only way it can work is for both to deny their beliefs or one win over the other.
> 
> I'm personally convinced that Christ will be victorious over all
> Php 2:10  so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
> Php 2:11  and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



They recognized Jesus as an "Apostle" which tells me they believe in the same God.


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## pnome

addictedtodeer said:


> Christians= Jesus is God
> 
> Muslims= Jesus is not God
> 
> let us not insult their beliefs by trying to prove what both books so clearly show.
> For Jesus to be God the Muslims' must deny their beliefs.
> For allah to be God Christians' must deny Jesus.
> The only way it can work is for both to deny their beliefs or one win over the other.



I think i understand now.  Because to Christians, Jesus IS God (i.e. they are inseperable) there is no way for the muslims to worshiping the same God because they don't accept Jesus.

Is that it?


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## dawg2

pnome said:


> I think i understand now.  Because to Christians, Jesus IS God (i.e. they are inseperable) there is no way for the muslims to worshiping the same God because they don't accept Jesus.
> 
> Is that it?



If that is true, than the Jewish faith is worshipping a different God from the Chritians as well.


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## addictedtodeer

dawg 2

Yes and Yes.

Christianity, as seen by many faiths, is intolerant for that reason.  To lessen Christ would be to deny him, to add someone above Christ would be to deny him, to make someone equal to him would lessen his uniqueness therefore denying him as well. Jesus is inseparable from our God.

Most Christians would say that the moment the Jews rejected Christ and his deity, was the moment they began worshiping a false God.  They would also say that the moment that Jews, as individuals, accept Jesus as Lord they are worshiping the True God, just like everyone else in the world.

Unfortunately men in the church have used this to justify horrific abuses of the Jewish nation.


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## dixie

addictedtodeer said:


> dawg 2
> 
> Yes and Yes.
> 
> Christianity, as seen by many faiths, is intolerant for that reason.  To lessen Christ would be to deny him, to add someone above Christ would be to deny him, to make someone equal to him would lessen his uniqueness therefore denying him as well. Jesus is inseparable from our God.
> 
> Most Christians would say that the moment the Jews rejected Christ and his deity, was the moment they began worshiping a false God.  They would also say that the moment that Jews, as individuals, accept Jesus as Lord they are worshiping the True God, just like everyone else in the world.
> 
> Unfortunately men in the church have used this to justify horrific abuses of the Jewish nation.



and that brings us to the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost


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## dawg2

dixie said:


> and that brings us to the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost



I just got back from lunch and you beat me to it

They believe in the FATHER but not the SON.  It is the same FATHER, like it or not.


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## SBG

pnome said:


> Is that it?



Jews as well.


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## RJY66

pnome said:


> I think i understand now.  Because to Christians, Jesus IS God (i.e. they are inseperable) there is no way for the muslims to worshiping the same God because they don't accept Jesus.
> 
> Is that it?



That is how I see it and a good observation on your part IMO. 

What is funny about the whole thing to me is that I can see Muslims having a problem with Christians for this very reason.  What I don't get is their consuming hatred for Jews and where the conflict between the two started.  If I knew any muslims I would try to pick out a sane one and ask.


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## pnome

RJY66 said:


> What I don't get is their consuming hatred for Jews and where the conflict between the two started.  If I knew any muslims I would try to pick out a sane one and ask.




It's in the Koran. 

This article goes into it in pretty good detail:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/06/muhammad_and_the_jews.html


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## dixie

pnome, one thing that MANY overlook, bypass and even deny, is that Jesus was a Jew, now, tie that with the fact that the Jews are Gods chosen people, and you'll start to see why so goes Israel, so goes the rest of the world. The futures in the Bible about all this. Armageddon's gonna happen, the thing we're not given to know is when.


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## PWalls

If you worship or call something "God" that isn't God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit then you are not worshipping the True God. Muslims do not do this. Therefore, not the same God. And, since there is only one God, what they are worshipping isn't even a God.


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## RJY66

pnome said:


> It's in the Koran.
> 
> This article goes into it in pretty good detail:
> http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/06/muhammad_and_the_jews.html



Thanks.  I'll read the article this evening or over the weekend.  It looks real interesting.


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## dawg2

PWalls said:


> If you worship or call something "God" that isn't God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit then you are not worshipping the True God. Muslims do not do this. Therefore, not the same God. And, since there is only one God, what they are worshipping isn't even a God.



But many of OUR Old Testament Prophets are THEIR Prophets as well, and same for the Jews...It is the same TREE just different branches.


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## PWalls

Anagama said:


> Do Jews worship the same God?
> 
> Yes or No



Yes

However, I have a caveat to that. They worship God as their ancestors did but not in accordance with how He wants them to worship them based on the New Testament and His Son.


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## PWalls

Anagama,

What is your opinion on the article? Let's hear it. Do you as a Catholic believe that Islams and Catholics worship the same God? Your Pope seems to think so. What about you?


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## PWalls

dawg2 said:


> But many of OUR Old Testament Prophets are THEIR Prophets as well, and same for the Jews...It is the same TREE just different branches.



I think their branches went too far out and they fell off.

And, we have God's Word that tells us there is only one Way. There is only one path. If your on the same tree or a different tree or in a different forest, doesn't matter if you are not on the right Way.


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## dawg2

PWalls said:


> I think their branches went too far out and they fell off.
> 
> And, we have God's Word that tells us there is only one Way. There is only one path. If your on the same tree or a different tree or in a different forest, doesn't matter if you are not on the right Way.



NO they never fell off.  Just like a tree, some go for open ground some wither in the shade, some ar ebroken from ice, but they are the same tree.  

There are many paths.  But for Christians, it was and is Jesus, as the son of God, which is what I believe.  But they (Muslim) still worship the same God the Father, but they followed Mohammed.  

I changed my avatar for you.  Kind of fits the times and the thread


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## dixie

dawg2 said:


> NO they never fell off.  Just like a tree, some go for open ground some wither in the shade, some ar ebroken from ice, but they are the same tree.
> 
> There are many paths.  But for Christians, it was and is Jesus, as the son of God, which is what I believe.  But they (Muslim) still worship the same God the Father, but they followed Mohammed.
> 
> I changed my avatar for you.  Kind of fits the times and the thread



Can't be dawg, Jesus and God the Father are one and the same, and the Holy Ghost, can't believe in one without the other. This is why the difference.


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## dawg2

dixie said:


> Can't be dawg, Jesus and God the Father are one and the same, and the Holy Ghost, can't believe in one without the other. This is why the difference.




SO the Jews are worshipping whom?  The devil?


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## StriperAddict

*w/o reading all the posts, I'll share this...*

dawg2, you are mislead about Islam.  There are definitive differences between the Judeo-Christian faith from the bible and the muslim religion.

For starters, the Muslim "God" can do whatever He wants, even contradict his own book the Quran (Koran).  Do you know the story of Mohammeds adopted son and his wife?  Mohammed ordered Saied to divorce his wife so that he could marry her. Saied refused.  The prophet gets a convenient 'revelation' and tells Saied that it is the will of Allah to do this.  Saied, in submission to such, agrees.  Do you see any problem with this?  

My God is NOT the same as the violent 'god' of the Koran (see Koran/Sura 9:5 >arabic version< for how us christians and jews should be treated) and He operates within the boundaries of His holy word, the bible.  The christian/jew killin' 'god' of the Koran cannot be the same as the God of the holy bible!

(BTW, God operating within the boundaries of His holy word gives every believer incredible comfort and security to know that, when He makes a covenant with us, HE will not break that covenant and strives to show us His love and mercy in the person of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.)

Another...
Nowhere in the Koran is there any hope from thier 'god' as to the absolute assurance of eternal life.  A good muslim fears to be held in high regard from a god which he/she is told will never know personally.  
That is not so with the God of scripture, Jesus came so that we might KNOW God and share a personal relationship with Him forever.


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## dawg2

StriperAddict said:


> dawg2, you are mislead about Islam.  There are definitive differences between the Judeo-Christian faith from the bible and the muslim religion.
> 
> For starters, the Muslim "God" can do whatever He wants, even contradict his own book the Quran (Koran).  Do you know the story of Mohammeds adopted son and his wife?  Mohammed ordered Saied to divorce his wife so that he could marry her. Saied refused.  The prophet gets a convenient 'revelation' and tells Saied that it is the will of Allah to do this.  Saied, in submission to such, agrees.  Do you see any problem with this?
> 
> My God is NOT the same as the violent 'god' of the Koran (see Koran/Sura 9:5 >arabic version< for how us christians and jews should be treated) and He operates within the boundaries of His holy word, the bible.  The christian/jew killin' 'god' of the Koran cannot be the same as the God of the holy bible!
> 
> (BTW, God operating within the boundaries of His holy word gives every believer incredible comfort and security to know that, when He makes a covenant with us, HE will not break that covenant and strives to show us His love and mercy in the person of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.)
> 
> Another...
> Nowhere in the Koran is there any hope from thier 'god' as to the absolute assurance of eternal life.  A good muslim fears to be held in high regard from a god which he/she is told will never know personally.
> That is not so with the God of scripture, Jesus came so that we might KNOW God and share a personal relationship with Him forever.



The Jewish "God" is a God of war, eye for an eye, so on.  SO who are they worshipping?  Look at what the Old Testament God did to Sodom and Gomorrah, look what he did to the Egyptians.


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## dixie

dawg2 said:


> SO the Jews are worshipping whom?  The devil?



Nope, keep in mind, the Jews have always worshiped the Father and they do believe in Jesus or the Messiah, but they believe he hasn't come yet, but still to come.


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## dawg2

dixie said:


> Nope, keep in mind, the Jews have always worshiped the Father and they do believe in Jesus or the Messiah, but they believe he hasn't come yet, but still to come.



So if the Muslims are not worshipping the same "Father" as us and the Jews, then why do they have so many parallel "Prophets" including JESUS, MARY, and JOSEPH???


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## justthinking

Christ FULFILLED the law and the prophets - the Jews and Muslims deny that, while Christians accept it. 

It all comes down to "The Name" - Jesus or Yeshua. What will you do with The Name?

Apart from Christ you have nothing. Joined with Christ you have everything. What will you personally do about it?

It's the best offer on the planet. Forgiveness of sins and eternal life - but you must be washed in His atoning blood, that He shed for all mankind. You must accept the free gift. It is not good enough to know about it - you must personally accept it. 

When Jesus said on the cross "It is finished!", that was it - nothing, or no one, would ever be needed for the atonement of sin. Praise God.

All by faith, I might add -- no works will ever work either.
Faith in Christ alone - anything else is filthy rags.

What will you do about The Name????

Don't delay your decision either - all the world (including the US) is geared up to divide Jerusalem, the apple of God's eye, in the name of "peace". Unthinkable days lie ahead. After last Tuesday, nothing remains the same.

What will you do about The Name????


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## dixie

dawg2 said:


> So if the Muslims are not worshipping the same "Father" as us and the Jews, then why do they have so many parallel "Prophets" including JESUS, MARY, and JOSEPH???



just my rantings dawg, but go back to the beginning of the Bible, why was satan cast out? who tempted Jesus and with what? satan is a part of Gods plan for this world and what better lie for satan to use than Gods words twisted into a parallel religion?


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## dawg2

dixie said:


> just my rantings dawg, but go back to the beginning of the Bible, why was satan cast out? who tempted Jesus and with what? satan is a part of Gods plan for this world and what better lie for satan to use than Gods words twisted into a parallel religion?



Don't get me wrong.  They "followed" the wrong path.


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## PWalls

PWalls said:


> Anagama,
> 
> What is your opinion on the article? Let's hear it. Do you as a Catholic believe that Islams and Catholics worship the same God? Your Pope seems to think so. What about you?



Answer the question Anagama.


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## PWalls

Anagama said:


> You can't square this
> 
> 
> 
> with this
> 
> 
> 
> If they arent' worshiping the way He wants them too then aren't they by default worshiping a false God?



Let me be more clear. Jews and Islamists both will end up in Hades if they do not come to worship Jesus Christ. Period. However there are some Jews who are Israelites that worship God and are still His Children. However, they are still destined for ************ unless they repent. God will redeem those Israelites at the time of the Rapture through the Great Tribulation. The Jewish God of the Old Testament is sill the God of the New Testament. However, He has given a new path to Him and salvation. So therefore, some Israelites/Jews try to worship the same God but they are just doing it wrong. Is that more clear for you?


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## PWalls

dawg2 said:


> So if the Muslims are not worshipping the same "Father" as us and the Jews, then why do they have so many parallel "Prophets" including JESUS, MARY, and JOSEPH???



Because on top of the Bible being the word of God, it is also a historical book. There are real people and places depicted within it. I would expect cross-over. Especially in the light that they trace their lineage back to Abraham. And, honestly, I do not believe that the Koran is Inspired, Inerrant and Infallible. So, who's to say some copying wasn't going on?


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## PWalls

dawg2 said:


> The Jewish "God" is a God of war, eye for an eye, so on.  SO who are they worshipping?  Look at what the Old Testament God did to Sodom and Gomorrah, look what he did to the Egyptians.



The Jewish God is also a God of Love. Look what He did for Lot to keep him from the judgement of Sodom and Gomorrah. Look at what He did for His children to get them out of Egypt and feed/water them in the wilderness.


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## dawg2

PWalls said:


> Because on top of the Bible being the word of God, it is also a historical book. There are real people and places depicted within it. I would expect cross-over. Especially in the light that they trace their lineage back to Abraham. And, honestly, I do not believe that the Koran is Inspired, Inerrant and Infallible. So, who's to say some copying wasn't going on?



It is a Historical Book.  And those prophets were working for God.  If they were not, and it truly is a different God, then I really believe the Koran would call them Charlatans or False prophets and not prophets.


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## PWalls

dawg2 said:


> It is a Historical Book.  And those prophets were working for God.  If they were not, and it truly is a different God, then I really believe the Koran would call them Charlatans or False prophets and not prophets.



Or, because your ancestral father denounced his son and the Muslims were not included in Abraham's further blessings it is more likely that these names were used to cause division. What better way to get back at the Israelites than to take the names of their ancestors/fathers and twist them to your own pagan religion.


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## dawg2

PWalls said:


> Or, because your ancestral father denounced his son and the Muslims were not included in Abraham's further blessings it is more likely that these names were used to cause division. What better way to get back at the Israelites than to take the names of their ancestors/fathers and twist them to your own pagan religion.



When you say "your" you are referring to a Muslim, not me right?


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## PWalls

dawg2 said:


> When you say "your" you are referring to a Muslim, not me right?



Yes, definately Muslim. Apologize if that was not clear.


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## dawg2

PWalls said:


> Yes, definately Muslim. Apologize if that was not clear.



Thanks for the clarification.  I don't think a Muslim would have a Jerusalem Cross, representing the four evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, with Christ /Jerusalem in the center as an avatar


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## dawg2

Woodswalker said:


> just trying to understand, does one read that flag from left to right or vice versa?
> 
> not trying to create dissension, and btw, i know where the center is...



Uh, left to right
The four smaller crosses some say said to symbolize either the four books of the Gospel (Mathew, Mark, Luke, & John), some say they are the four directions in which the Word of Christ spread from Jerusalem, and yet others say all five crosses can symbolize the five wounds of Christ during the Passion.


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## dawg2

Anagama said:


> Christians, Jews, and Muslims all three worship the God of Abraham



ditto.


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## justthinking

> Christians, Jews, and Muslims all three worship the God of Abraham



Holy Cow. That is an impossibility. God is not schizophrenic.

Abraham was justified by his faith in the promise of the coming Messiah, even though he would not see that promise fulfilled in his day. 

BUT! (change of direction).

Since the Messiah (Jesus) has already come to earth and FINISHED the prophesied, atoning work on the cross - anyone not accepting Him after that event is NOT:
(A) Saved, Born Again of the Spirit, On Their Way to Heaven. 
(B) Worshipping the God of Abraham, as Jesus IS the God of Abraham.

Period. 

Anyone that offers up a prayer in any other name than Jesus, is just talking to themselves. They may believe that they are praying to someone, but apart from Christ they absolutely are not.

Ask this question to anyone on the street:

Have you received in you, the Holy Spirit (ie: the Third PERSON of the living God)?

Anyone that says no, is not born of the Spirit and therefore is not saved. Even some people who call themselves "Christians", will explicitly tell you no. Jews and Muslims will certainly, wholeheartedly, tell you without reservation "NO".

And herein lies the kicker: 

_1Corinthians 12:3 - 
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 16:13-17 - 
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" 

They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 

"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" 

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven._

Without God's direct revelation in a person, it is impossible to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah. Without acknowledging Jesus as God and Messiah, you are not worshipping the God of Abraham either, as HE IS the same God that Abraham worshipped. 

Now, how about the Samaritan woman at the well? 

_John 4:19-26
"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem." 

Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." 

The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 

Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."_

Can it be any clearer??? How must one worship the Father?? In spirit and in truth!

This woman believed in a coming Messiah, but once the Messiah is revealed to a person, they cannot keep waiting for another Messiah. 

You MUST do something with that truth - that the Messiah has indeed come, and that you must receive Him as your Savior. You cannot deny Him and still believe that you worship God (ie: the God of Abraham).

Anyone not receiving Jesus, literally receiving His Spirit in them, is not of God, nor in God, nor worshipping God.

Anyone who has received Jesus, and has His Spirit living in them - is indeed of God, is in God and worships the only true and living God.

_Finally, John 17 and then the Great Commission:

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

"I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. "I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."_

If you are a follower of Jesus the Messiah, you have been COMMISSIONED by Him to do the following:

_Matthew 28:18-20 - 
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."_

Are Jews doing this today? Are Muslims? Are Buddhists? Are Hindus? Are Wiccans? Heck, even most people calling themselves Christians aren't either!

The question remains - are you doing this today?

Jesus - The Name: Who do you say that I am? Who do you follow? Who do you serve? Who do you love?


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## dawg2

Justthinking:  Then who are the Jews worshipping?


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## dawg2

justthinking said:


> Holy Cow. That is an impossibility. God is not schizophrenic.



So do you believe in the Holy Trinity?  That would be schizophrenic.


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## justthinking

First - Jews as a majority are a "secular" (non-religious) people group these days. There is a small minority who are orthodox, and I believe that orthodox Jews "think" they are worshipping the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. But they are not.

Their Laws and Prophets are explicitly fulfilled in the person of Jesus the Christ. Based solely on the fulfillment of eight of the Messianic Prophecies in the OLD TESTAMENT, the odds that the Messiah can be anyone other than Jesus are 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000. That's fulfilling only eight, not the hundreds that Jesus has already fulfilled in His first coming! When they reject THEIR OWN Messiah, well......

That aside.....Orthodox Jews are not even fulfilling their own religious obligations to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as there are no longer animal sacrifices that deal with the issue of sin in the Old Testament. Gotta have the blood sacrifice -- and that's where Jesus' death fulfilled that part of the Law. He was the literal sacrificial lamb of God who took away the sins of the world - ONCE AND FOR ALL - NEVER having to be repeated. When the temple veil was torn at the instance of Jesus' death, that was symbolic of the New Covenant that God was establishing. Human sacrifice took the place of animal sacrifice - making Jesus the ONLY way to the Father.

If you were God....and you sacrificed your only son for the sins of mankind - would you continue to accept any other form of "worship"? Would you still accept the blood of sheep and bulls as an acceptable sacrifice for the atonement of one's sins? Or, pray five times a day in the direction towards Mecca and make a pilgrimage to the holy shrines at least once in your life, oh and be a good person while you are at it (kinds sounds like works to me). I don't think so either....good is not good enough, animal blood is not good enough. NOTHING is good enough after the Messiah layed down His pure and sinless body on that cross for you and for me.

As for me believing in the triune Godhead as being schizophrenic - I can see that argument ONLY if the three members of that trinity were different persons, but in actuality they are the same persons. Same in thought and deed. They don't differ in any way from one another. 

Kinda hard to get a finite mind around the concept of an infinite God, but I actually prefer it that way instead of the other way around. It's much too easy to make up your own god to suit one's own desires.

Somebody earlier interpreted that the "OT God" was a God of wrath and the "NT God" is a different God of love. I disagree that they are different Gods. You only need to look to the book of Revelation to understand that while His love is longsuffering, that it won't hold out forever. The days that lie ahead -- especially after the secular Jews in power divide Jerusalem, the apple of God's eye -- are very dark days indeed. I believe that God's unmistakable power and wrath are soon to be poured out upon an unrepentant and truly godless world.

Time will ultimately tell....hope that answers your questions.


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## PWalls

justthinking said:


> As for me believing in the triune Godhead as being schizophrenic - I can see that argument ONLY if the three members of that trinity were different persons, but in actuality they are the same persons. Same in thought and deed. They don't differ in any way from one another.



Very good. Thank you.


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## gordon 2

A different way of looking at the difference between christian and muslims is how both groups look at freedom. Freedom for both has as root faith in God. Jesus  and The Prophet both knew that man must be "in the way" or know and follow the will of God. This God is the God of Abraham for both groups. 

For christians freedom means individual freedom from rigid convention and  base religious constraint. For muslims freedom means individual freedom because of clear and rigid convention and riligious constraint.

Muslims perhaps see christians as christians see Jews. For muslims christians missed the boat. Muslims are right about the trinity in that it is not in scripture, but indeed man made. It came about because of disagreement on the nature of God, between european christians and eastern christians a few hundred yrs after Paul was being bit by snakes.

 Also, muslim don't make a big "Todo" about man being born fallen and in need of a supernatural pick me upper. Rather, I believe, they attribute this outlook to Paul the apostle, not Jesus the apostle.

What is interesting is that while christians see muslims as captives to their religion or faith, muslims see christians as not being captive to the "way" by  their religion or faith! Therefore because christians are not disiplined to the will of God, they are a people of excess materially and spiritually.


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## StriperAddict

Try this read !!


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## justthinking

Good read S.A.. - 

Gordon - "Muslims are right about the trinity in that it is not in scripture, but indeed man made. It came about because of disagreement on the nature of God, between european christians and eastern christians a few hundred yrs after Paul was being bit by snakes." ---HUH??

How would you square this O.T. verse then, which came well before Paul and the snake issue?

Genisis 1:26 
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

The primary words to look for are US and OUR. Let US, in OUR. That is plural, not singular.


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## GunnSmokeer

I'm restarting this old thread, which I ran across searching for something else, to comment about Allah being, or not being, God the Father.

A recent Christian apologetics seminar I went to featured a former Muslim who has been, for some 20 years now, a Christian.  He said that Allah cannot possibly be just the Arabic word for the same God that we Christians know as part of the Trinity, because:

1:  Islamic scripture rejects any Trinity or Godhead-- there's just ONE God, and one great Prophet (Muhammad) and many lesser prophets (including Jesus).

2:   Christians say Jesus is the "Son" of God, but Muslims say that their god has no sons.  None. Nor any wife or concubine to have sons with.

3:   What Allah teaches through the Koran is flatly inconsistent with what God teaches in the Bible.

*****************

However, couldn't all of these criticisms be applied to the Jewish God of Abraham?  The Jews were also strict monotheists, with no room in their scripture for a trinity of three God-Persons.  The Old Testament don't speak of a single "son," although a few people are described as being sons or like a son, in that they are faithful followers of the Lord and stand to inherit blessings from Him. As to the third point, the O.T. has a entirely different message from the New Testament, including a different system of worship, different standards and expectations, a different idea of salvation, and just a different tone. The God of the Old Testament was often about brutality, fire and brimstone, kill-em-all, genocide, etc. There's barely a hint of that in the New Testament, especially the words of Christ himself, and instead we find most of the material is about brotherly love, forgiveness, tolerance, and letting God take care of the unjust when they meet Him later.

But, these differences between how God is portrayed in the O.T. and the N.T. cannot support a conclusion that they're "different gods." It's obviously the same God the Father, and the only "God" that the Patriarchs of the Old Testmement knew-- these same patriarchs that Jesus praised and reminded the Jews of his time of, saying that the people had failed to follow the good teachings of those prophets of old.

If the Jews worship the same God the Father that we do as part of the Trinity, why is it wrong to say the Muslims also worship God the Father, although in the wrong way and based on false prophets?   Even if they have the "right god" that doesn't mean they're doing the "right thing" or have their hearts in the right place, such that they are truly carrying out God's wishes.


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## Artfuldodger

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

or

For this reason the sovereign master himself will give you a confirming sign. Look, this young woman is about to conceive and will give birth to a son. You, young woman, will name him Immanuel.

Just trying to see if any place in the Old Testament says the Messiah was to the Son of God. I can't see how a virgin birth would describe anything else beyond divine intervention.

I can see your point in relation to all three religions being from the God of Abraham. 
Many folks who worship the correct God could be worshipping him the wrong way. The only correct way is through Jesus.

So if one knows God by his creation only, it still takes Jesus to make the "way." One could know the correct God in a small isolated island village, but he would also need to know Jesus. 

Somehow Jesus has to be in the equation no matter what God one believes in. So yes, the Muslims could be worshipping the right God, just the wrong way like the Jews are doing.


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## swampstalker24

justthinking said:


> Good read S.A.. -
> 
> Gordon - "Muslims are right about the trinity in that it is not in scripture, but indeed man made. It came about because of disagreement on the nature of God, between european christians and eastern christians a few hundred yrs after Paul was being bit by snakes." ---HUH??
> 
> *How would you square this O.T. verse then, which came well before Paul and the snake issue?*
> 
> Genisis 1:26
> Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
> 
> The primary words to look for are US and OUR. Let US, in OUR. That is plural, not singular.



I wonder how a Jew would answer this question?


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## hobbs27

Jew's changed their faith when the temple was destroyed.  If they had stayed with God they would have done as John the Baptist,  Peter,  John,  the men of Galilee,  etc. 
 They rejected God and His Son,  then when they lost the genealogies,  the temple,  the priesthood... They created a new religion.  Christianity is therefore the oldest religion,  dating back Adam.


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## centerpin fan

It's interesting that almost none of the members who posted in this thread in 2007 post in this forum anymore.


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## rjcruiser

centerpin fan said:


> It's interesting that almost none of the members who posted in this thread in 2007 post in this forum anymore.



LOL...they're all banded or under different usernames.  

Good times, great oldies.


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## rjcruiser

I will say, in response to the OT and NT being totally different belief systems and different messages...nothing could be further from the truth.  It is a common belief held by athiests and agnostics, but if one read the book of Hebrews, one would see that the message of the OT and the message of the NT are very very similar.  The ultimate message of the Bible, the Gospel, or the way to eternity with God is the same in both the OT and the NT.


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## hobbs27

rjcruiser said:


> I will say, in response to the OT and NT being totally different belief systems and different messages...nothing could be further from the truth.  It is a common belief held by athiests and agnostics, but if one read the book of Hebrews, one would see that the message of the OT and the message of the NT are very very similar.  The ultimate message of the Bible, the Gospel, or the way to eternity with God is the same in both the OT and the NT.



Yep.


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## NE GA Pappy

If you studied the NT from daylight to dark for 20 years, you will still find things in the OT that would help explain NT teaching.  You will have a fuller understanding studying both.  They are not exclusive of each other, they are complimentary.


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## Israel

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.


All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


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## gordon 2

Israel said:


> All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
> 
> 
> All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
> 
> Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.



This seems to suggest that the Son was active in revealing the Father well before Jesus of Nazareth  walked the earth? Or something else?


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## Artfuldodger

In order to know God, you must also know Jesus. In order to know Jesus, you must know God.

I've tried to understand how one whose never heard the Gospel and only knows God by his creation, comes to know Jesus. Perhaps if one knows God, they know Jesus by knowledge from the Holy Spirit's revealing.

When it comes down to it there is only one Great Architect of the Universe. He may be known to many by other names but there is only one God. Only He is capable of revealing himself.

Maybe when God reveals himself, he reveals his Son. If you know God, you know the Son.


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## Israel

gordon 2 said:


> This seems to suggest that the Son was active in revealing the Father well before Jesus of Nazareth  walked the earth? Or something else?



Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who foretold the grace that would come to you, searched and investigated carefully, trying to determine the time and setting to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they foretold the things now announced by those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.…

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me — not that anyone has seen the Father except the One who is from God; only He has seen the Father.…


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## hummerpoo

Is this relevant to the current conversation?


The Doctrine of the Trinity is an attempt to describe a relational unity and diversity which are of differing density,
and of which unity or diversity there is no satisfactory temporal analogue.

“Differing density” is shown by unity being described, in Scripture, in more direct and simple terms than diversity (God’s simplicity).  Therefore any attempt to find the balance point of unity and diversity must, of necessity, be closer to unity than to diversity.


I have seen, I think, a movement away from unity.


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## Israel

hummerpoo said:


> Is this relevant to the current conversation?
> 
> 
> The Doctrine of the Trinity is an attempt to describe a relational unity and diversity which are of differing density,
> and of which unity or diversity there is no satisfactory temporal analogue.
> 
> “Differing density” is shown by unity being described, in Scripture, in more direct and simple terms than diversity (God’s simplicity).  Therefore any attempt to find the balance point of unity and diversity must, of necessity, be closer to unity than to diversity.
> 
> 
> I have seen, I think, is a movement away from unity.


 

I am not sure I am hearing the red rightly?


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## gordon 2

Israel said:


> Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who foretold the grace that would come to you, searched and investigated carefully, trying to determine the time and setting to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they foretold the things now announced by those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.…
> 
> No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me — not that anyone has seen the Father except the One who is from God; only He has seen the Father.…




So the Spirit of Christ was in them the faithful, and their prophets in  that they were servants of others as Christ is and not of themselves so that Christ the servant was in the Father* Yahweh from the beginning and thus ever with the faithful * ( David for example) but also other prophets... the people of faith. 

In short Jesus was ever with the people of faith simply for the fact that God was a servant of His people, of man, from the get go?

 Quote{the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing..}

Quote{they were not serving themselves but you,..}


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## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> I am not sure I am hearing the red rightly?



Concerning things I read and hear — as compared to the theological battle of the 4th century when the doctrine was formulated (which I doubt that I understand well) and the time of the Reformation (equally vague to me) — it seems that teaching of Devine unity is fading relative to diversity, or individuality, or personality.

>>I removed "is"<<


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## gordon 2

Israel said:


> Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who foretold the grace that would come to you, searched and investigated carefully, trying to determine the time and setting to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they foretold the things now announced by those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.…
> 
> No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me — not that anyone has seen the Father except the One who is from God; only He has seen the Father.…



So because the Spirit of Christ was in them they served not themselves but others as the Spirit of Christ is a serving spirit. 

Or in other words God was ever a servant of man, that is, serving man because of His love and not because man was ever lord over Him, but just the opposite selflessly serving due His nature. 

In this way the Savior, the servant, was ever with God from the beginning not only from the fall but also when he provided Adam with comfort though he was still sinless.

The Spirit of Christ was with Abraham when he freed from their captors Lot and his people. Not for himself did Abraham do this, but as a servant he did it for Lot. And so Abraham prevailed because the Lord, our Lord, was with him all be it in the Spirit, and Abraham knowing it or not knowing it.


????


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## Israel

gordon 2 said:


> So because the Spirit of Christ was in them they served not themselves but others as the Spirit of Christ is a serving spirit.
> 
> Or in other words God was ever a servant of Man, that is, serving man because of His love and not because man was ever lord over Him, but just the opposite selflessly serving due His nature.
> 
> In this way the Savior, the servant, was ever with God from the beginning not only from the fall but also when he provided Adam with comfort though he was still sinless.
> 
> The Spirit of Christ was with Abraham when he freed from their captors Lot and his people. Not for himself did Abraham do this, but as a servant he did it for Lot. And so Abraham prevailed because the Lord, our Lord, was with him all be it in the Spirit, and Abraham knowing it or not knowing it.
> 
> 
> ????


When did we see thee hungered, or naked...?


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## SemperFiDawg

Just my 2 cents.  I think it's correct to say all 3 worship one concept of God, but the individual concepts are not even close to the same......so I don't think it's correct to say they all worship the same God.


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