# Out of this world?



## vowell462 (Jan 30, 2011)

First off, let me say that I really enjoy this forum and like to hear from all sides, believers and non. I consider myself to be an " I dont know" kind of person but im constantly doing research on religions and believes to help educate myself.
A few years back I read the book " Chariots of the Gods" by Eric Van Daniken. The book full of questions has really put a question mark over my head as to have we been visited by others in the past. Since I read it, the show Ancient Aliens Is on every week and really resonates with my mind as making perfect sense. 
So my question to all is do you think it is possible that we have been visited by extraterrestrials in the past and if so why? If you dont, why not?


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## vowell462 (Jan 30, 2011)

we may have already done this one. If so, I apologize.


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## olcowman (Jan 30, 2011)

Honestly... I wish I had never read that book... it conflicts with alot of issues I was comfortably indoctrinated into and has cause me great deal of unease over the years. As far as have we been visited? I ain't got a clue, but it is a compelling question when taken in context with the material within that dreadful book...


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## ted_BSR (Jan 30, 2011)

I think saguaro cactuses are hibernating space aliens.

Really though, I have no clue, but it is possible.


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## woodchuck23 (Feb 12, 2011)

I think it would be very arrogant for us to believe that we were the only "people" in the universe or universes as the case may be. Did you see the movie The Fourth Kind? Creepy!


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## pnome (Feb 14, 2011)

I think it's highly improbable that we have ever been visited by aliens.


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## vowell462 (Feb 14, 2011)

pnome said:


> I think it's highly improbable that we have ever been visited by aliens.



If you dont mind me asking, why do you think its improbable?


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## pnome (Feb 14, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> If you dont mind me asking, why do you think its improbable?



Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


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## vowell462 (Feb 14, 2011)

pnome said:


> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.



Really? I think some of the evidence and theories are supported by extraordinary evidence. Not saying any of it is fact, but some of the evidence to support the idea is kinda overwhelming to me.


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## pnome (Feb 14, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Really? I think some of the evidence and theories are supported by extraordinary evidence. Not saying any of it is fact, but some of the evidence to support the idea is kinda overwhelming to me.



I haven't read the book.  Could you elaborate on this evidence?


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## vowell462 (Feb 15, 2011)

pnome said:


> I haven't read the book.  Could you elaborate on this evidence?



Its all theory, of course none is proven. The evidence just supports the theory.

 Places like Puma Punku in Bolivia. A huge stone structure that was supposedly built by humans that were known as hunters and gatherers at the time. Engineers today say they would have a hard time building it. The cuts in the stone are so precise even modern machinery would have a hard time doing it, if it could at all.

The Great Pyramids of Geza. We have been taught that they were built in 22 years by thousands of Egyptians. Modern science has formulated that if that were true, there would have to be one stone (which is several thousand pounds) to be installed every 11 seconds. The hieroglyphics inside the tombs of the pyramids suggest strange biengs and large men. Also, the pyramids are so airtight you cant hold a flame in them, which begs the question of how did they see to work inside or see to scribe hieroglyphics.

Just diifferent ideas of how things come to be what they are now. Most religions usually have people or some biengs that have the ability to fly and come from the skies. Why is that?

Pretty interesting stuuf if you look into it. Eric Van Daniken was the first to propose this in his book Chariots of the Gods. Several others have since wrote plenty more. The show on The History Channel "Ancient Aliens" is pretty fascinating to watch. You have to study up on it with an open mind. If you are religious, I wouldnt recommend looking into it. It kinda goes against most indoctrination, but it makes alot of sense to me.


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## blondiega1 (Feb 15, 2011)

If we're the only ones in the universe, it would be an awful waste of space.



.


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## stringmusic (Feb 15, 2011)

blondiega1 said:


> If we're the only ones in the universe, it would be an *awful waste of space*.
> 
> 
> 
> .



This statement assumes purpose, do you think that humanity has a purpose for being here?


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## pnome (Feb 15, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Places like Puma Punku in Bolivia. A huge stone structure that was supposedly built by humans that were known as hunters and gatherers at the time. Engineers today say they would have a hard time building it. The cuts in the stone are so precise even modern machinery would have a hard time doing it, if it could at all.



This is not evidence of aliens. This is simply an unanswered question.  Who built Puma Punku and how did they do it?  The answer is we don't really know.  It's not, Aliens from another world.  You have no direct evidence of them.  

To posit this as evidence of aliens visiting Earth is to make a logical fallacy called an "argument from ignorance."  Or an argument from personal incredulity: "I can't imagine how humans could have done this so many years ago, so it must have been aliens."



> The Great Pyramids of Geza. We have been taught that they were built in 22 years by thousands of Egyptians. Modern science has formulated that if that were true, there would have to be one stone (which is several thousand pounds) to be installed every 11 seconds. The hieroglyphics inside the tombs of the pyramids suggest strange biengs and large men. Also, the pyramids are so airtight you cant hold a flame in them, which begs the question of how did they see to work inside or see to scribe hieroglyphics.



Same sort of argument.  



> Just diifferent ideas of how things come to be what they are now. Most religions usually have people or some biengs that have the ability to fly and come from the skies. Why is that?



Because humans are stuck on the ground.  



> You have to study up on it with an open mind. If you are religious, I wouldnt recommend looking into it. It kinda goes against most indoctrination, but it makes alot of sense to me.



I assure you, I am not religious.  I'm just a pretty skeptical kind of person.


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## vowell462 (Feb 15, 2011)

Again, its all THEORY. In no way in my post did I say there is factual evidence. All Im saying is it makes me think its possible. I cant discredit it because its possible. I cant discredit anything because anything is possible. It just makes a little more sense to me than most religions.

Im pretty skeptical as well.


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## pnome (Feb 15, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> It just makes a little more sense to me than most religions.



I think I can agree that aliens visiting Earth is more probable than most religions.


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## 1handkneehigh (Feb 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> This statement assumes purpose, do you think that humanity has a purpose for being here?



Every living creature has a purpose for being here including human.  Survival of the fittest.


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## vowell462 (Feb 15, 2011)

1handkneehigh said:


> Every living creature has a purpose for being here including human.  Survival of the fittest.



what does survival of the fittest have to do with a purpose of being here?


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## 1handkneehigh (Feb 15, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> what does survival of the fittest have to do with a purpose of being here?



Human or any living organism purpose for being here on this earth is to ensure the survival of the specie.  Apparently the species that did not survive were extinct and therefore they were not the fittest.


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## vowell462 (Feb 16, 2011)

1handkneehigh said:


> Human or any living organism purpose for being here on this earth is to ensure the survival of the specie.  Apparently the species that did not survive were extinct and therefore they were not the fittest.



I understand this completly. However, I don't think Stringmusics question was directed at an explanation of the species purpose after its here. I think he is trying to come in and say every living organism has a purpose through god. The question really is, why is there any species to begin with.


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## stringmusic (Feb 16, 2011)

1handkneehigh said:


> Human or any living organism purpose for being here on this earth is to ensure the* survival of the specie.*  Apparently the species that did not survive were extinct and therefore they were not the fittest.



This still gives no purpose, the purpose of the species surviving is what? What are you doing on earth, and what does it mean if you survive another day?


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## stringmusic (Feb 16, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> I understand this completly. However, I don't think Stringmusics question was directed at an explanation of the species purpose after its here. I think he is trying to come in and say every living organism has a purpose through god. The question really is, *why is there any species to begin with*.



One may only answer this question, and questions of the like, coherently, through God.


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## 1handkneehigh (Feb 16, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> This still gives no purpose, the purpose of the species surviving is what? What are you doing on earth, and what does it mean if you survive another day?



The day you are born till the day you die most of your time spent satisfying your wants and needs, trying to make your life more comfortable.  Ultimately everyone's purpose is to have a stable family with kids and hopefully if you live long enough to see your grandkids.  By having kids you ensure the survival of your specie.


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## stringmusic (Feb 17, 2011)

1handkneehigh said:


> The day you are born till the day you die most of your time spent satisfying your wants and needs, trying to make your life more comfortable.  Ultimately everyone's purpose is to have a stable family with kids and hopefully if you live long enough to see your grandkids. * By having kids you ensure the survival of your specie.*





stringmusic said:


> This still gives no purpose, *the purpose of the species surviving is what?* What are you doing on earth, and what does it mean if you survive another day?



I have to ask the same question, staying alive for a certian amount of time gives purpose to your life how? If your reality is black after this life, what does anything you do in this life matter? The purpose anyone gives to their life will be completly irrelevant 50 years after they die.


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## pnome (Feb 17, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I have to ask the same question, staying alive for a certian amount of time gives purpose to your life how? If your reality is black after this life, what does anything you do in this life matter?



Black?  I always imagined it would be green. 

What comes "after this life" is something that we just don't know.  To imagine that it is black or green or white is to do just that.  Imagine.  

What does anything you do in this life matter?  Ultimately.  If you travel that hallway on down I think you'll find yourself staring at a door marked "unknown" eventually.  I simply have a shorter hallway.



> The purpose anyone gives to their life will be completly irrelevant 50 years after they die.



There are so many figures in history to choose from to rebut this statement.  I'm sort of at a loss as to which to choose.  Do I go with figures from antiquity that helped shape our cultures of today?  Do I go with military generals of old, who won battles that carved borders that we see today?   Influential artists?  I think I'll just pick someone who died 50 years ago whose life's work is still relevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Schrödinger


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## 1mamabearNC (Feb 19, 2011)

I clicked on the link above and I could only feel sorry for the cats who were poisoned! Although, he seems like he was a brilliant scientist. 

I do agree with your point, though. There is purpose in every life, I have 2 children. They are my legacy. Eventually, they will have children, and their children will have children, and so on. They will be continuing my legacy. Hopefully, they will have better lives than I have, maybe one of them will find the cure for cancer or invent the flying car-really want one of those! Or just have a wonderful, happy life-that would be great. Whatever, my life has purpose, for me and for the future


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## JFS (Feb 19, 2011)

1mamabearNC said:


> I clicked on the link above and I could only feel sorry for the cats who were poisoned!



They were only hypothetical cats so don't feel too bad.


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## stringmusic (Feb 19, 2011)

pnome said:


> Black?  I always imagined it would be green.
> 
> What comes "after this life" is something that we just don't know.  To imagine that it is black or green or white is to do just that.  Imagine.
> 
> ...




What do you think Mr. Schrödinger feels right this second about what he did with his time on earth?


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## JFS (Feb 19, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> What do you think Mr. Schrödinger feels right this second about what he did with his time on earth?



Why would you think there is a him to feel anything now?


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## atlashunter (Feb 20, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> What do you think Mr. Schrödinger feels right this second about what he did with his time on earth?



Probably the exact same thing you felt about your life before you were born.

When you say that someone's life will be irrelevant to them 50 years after death, my question is irrelevant to who?


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## Murphy (Feb 20, 2011)

To posit this as evidence of aliens visiting Earth is to make a logical fallacy called an "argument from ignorance." Or an argument from personal incredulity: "I can't imagine how humans could have done this so many years ago, so it must have been aliens."

This is the same way religions are moneymakers.....I can't see a human creating earth must have been God 

Just cause you can't explain or prove it doesn't mean a fairy tale creature or ghost created it


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## 1handkneehigh (Feb 20, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I have to ask the same question, staying alive for a certian amount of time gives purpose to your life how? If your reality is black after this life, what does anything you do in this life matter? The purpose anyone gives to their life will be completly irrelevant 50 years after they die.



How you live your life while you are on this earth is totally up to you.  You make the most of it.  My life maybe irrevelant to you now or 50 years after I die but to my kids and their kids I mean a whole world to them.  After all it's a fact that if it wasn't for me (with help from my wife), my kids would not have been born.


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2011)

JFS said:


> Why would you think there is a him to feel anything now?



Exactly my point, atheism gives no purpose to life, time + matter + chance has no purpose.


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2011)

Murphy said:


> To posit this as evidence of aliens visiting Earth is to make a logical fallacy called an "argument from ignorance." Or an argument from personal incredulity: "I can't imagine how humans could have done this so many years ago, so it must have been aliens."
> 
> This is the same way religions are moneymakers.....I can't see a human creating earth must have been God
> 
> *Just cause you can't explain or prove it doesn't mean a fairy tale creature or ghost created it *



Does it mean that a ghost didn't create this world and life in it?


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Probably the exact same thing you felt about your life before you were born.
> 
> When you say that someone's life will be irrelevant *to them *50 years after death, my question is irrelevant to who?



Your answer is in red.

How can your life have purpose when your time + matter + chance, and that purpose goes away after you die?


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## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Exactly my point, atheism gives no purpose to life, time + matter + chance has no purpose.



Like all living organisms, your prime directive is to pass on your genes.   I'm not sure how this impulse got warped into "I want to live forever".  I guess it may have something to do with a fear of no longer being, I just don't get it.


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Like all living organisms, your* prime directive is to pass on your genes.*   I'm not sure how this impulse got warped into "I want to live forever".  I guess it may have something to do with a fear of no longer being, I just don't get it.



This seems to be the "atheists'" answer to the proposed question of purpose, IMO this absolutly gives zero prupose to life, so here is another question. What is the purpose of a women who cannot have children, or a man who cannot give children, or is purpose just subjective?


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## atlashunter (Feb 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Exactly my point, atheism gives no purpose to life, time + matter + chance has no purpose.



What was the purpose of a t-rex?

The only difference between the atheist and you is that you refuse to acknowledge we all find and decide our own purpose. You've adopted religious dogma as yours. You need some external entity to tell you what you are here for. But it doesn't change anything in reality. You're still here for a limited time and can choose, in fact you must choose, what you do with your life. Credit your choices to an imaginary entity if you must. But you're in the same sinking boat as the rest of us. You just don't want to admit it.


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> What was the purpose of a t-rex?


In my opinion, the T-rex, although very cool, was not created in the image of God with a soul.



> The only difference between the atheist and you is that you refuse to acknowledge we all find and decide our own purpose. You've adopted religious dogma as yours. You need some external entity to tell you what you are here for. But it doesn't change anything in reality. You're still here for a limited time and can choose, in fact you must choose, what you do with your life. Credit your choices to an imaginary entity if you must. But you're in* the same sinking boat as the rest of us*. You just don't want to admit it.



What a miserable life.

.... and BTW, this is not the only difference between myself and an atheist, another difference is I am a lot cooler


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## OutFoxed (Feb 21, 2011)

So you're saying when the puppy factor wore off T-Rex, God, decided to send in the hellfire? That sounds pretty childish.


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## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> This seems to be the "atheists'" answer to the proposed question of purpose, IMO this absolutly gives zero prupose to life, so here is another question. What is the purpose of a women who cannot have children, or a man who cannot give children, or is purpose just subjective?



Second directive: Keep yourself alive.

Do you have kids?  Do they not give you a sense of purpose?


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2011)

OutFoxed said:


> So you're saying when the puppy factor wore off T-Rex, God, decided to send in the hellfire? That sounds pretty childish.



I'm going to need you to expound on your statement here. I'm not seeing where "God decided to send in the hellfire" because of an animal, is coming into play.


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Second directive: Keep yourself alive.


We throwing out the first directive?



> Do you have kids?  Do they not give you a sense of purpose?



Can't comment on this one, I dont have kids yet.


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## atlashunter (Feb 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> In my opinion, the T-rex, although very cool, was not created in the image of God with a soul.



So only men have a purpose? And we get our purpose from being created in God's image with a soul? How do you know this to be true? And at what point in our evolution did we acquire this?





stringmusic said:


> What a miserable life.



It can be. It can also be quite wonderful. It's really up to each of us isn't it? Regardless, death is coming for all of us whether we suck every last bit of marrow out of life or not. What happens after that is unknown. Anybody who claims they do know is lying and that includes the goat herders that wrote the bible so many years ago. This universe was here long before any of us came on the scene just as it was with the dinosaurs. It's still here and just as indifferent now that the dinosaurs are long gone. I see no reason to believe it will be any different for us.


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## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> So only men have a purpose? And we get our purpose from being created in God's image with a soul? How do you know this to be true? And at what point in our evolution did we acquire this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is it really that hard to accept that the Universe is huge, random, mysterious and indifferent?  Why?  Can one not feel important and insignificant at the same time?


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> So only men have a purpose?


only humans have an ultimate purpose.



> And we get our purpose from being created in God's image with a soul?


Yes





> How do you know this to be true?


I have faith that it is true





> And at what point in our evolution did we acquire this?


At the beginning.







> It can be. It can also be quite wonderful. It's really up to each of us isn't it? Regardless, death is coming for all of us whether we suck every last bit of marrow out of life or not. What happens after that is unknown. Anybody who claims they do know is lying and that includes the goat herders that wrote the bible so many years ago. This universe was here long before any of us came on the scene just as it was with the dinosaurs. It's still here and just as indifferent now that the dinosaurs are long gone. I see no reason to believe it will be any different for us.



You believe this, yet you charge God with moral wrongs.


 I would take it you find there is objective evil in this world, correct? How do you come to those moral conclusions with no prupose in life?


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## JFS (Feb 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> with a soul.



Any evidence of that?


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## atlashunter (Feb 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I have faith that it is true



Based on what?




stringmusic said:


> At the beginning.



Ah but that would include all life then but that can't be according to you. Did neanderthals have a soul? How about earlier ancestors of humans? What physical trait is it exactly about our similarity to God's image that gives us a soul? If someone is deformed or brain damaged do they still have a soul? What if we genetically hybridize a human and another hominid species? Would that creature have a soul? And how are you even answering any of these questions that you accept on faith?




stringmusic said:


> You believe this, yet you charge God with moral wrongs.



Yes I do. Do you not?




stringmusic said:


> I would take it you find there is objective evil in this world, correct?



No not objective.


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## stringmusic (Feb 22, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Yes I do. Do you not?








> No not objective.



So, let me get this straight, you dont believe in objective morals, however, you charge God with moral wrongdoing? I need more of an explanation.


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## stringmusic (Feb 22, 2011)

JFS said:


> Any evidence of that?



I cant show you a picture of a soul. I guess I get most of my evidence from the ancient book with a talking snake.


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## atlashunter (Feb 22, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> So, let me get this straight, you dont believe in objective morals, however, you charge God with moral wrongdoing? I need more of an explanation.



You don't need an objective moral to be able to apply it to God. You can use the morals claimed to be from God himself. He breaks his own rules.

Or...

I can apply my own views that may differ from the bible. For example, I don't believe it just to roast anyone forever because my conception of justice is one that includes the idea of proportionality. But there can be no proportionality in an infinite punishment applied for finite actions in a finite lifetime. That is a view that clashes with a theology that claims a just God sends people to eternal torment for telling a lie or sleeping with the wrong person in the wrong way or stealing a loaf of bread. I take issue with the idea of that as justice and assert one that I believe to be superior. But I don't claim it to be objective.


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## ambush80 (Feb 22, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I cant show you a picture of a soul. I guess I get most of my evidence from the ancient book with a talking snake.[/QUOTE]
> 
> That very thing never ceaces to amaze me.


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## stringmusic (Feb 24, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You don't need an objective moral to be able to apply it to God. You can use the morals claimed to be from God himself. He breaks his own rules.
> 
> Or...
> 
> I can apply my own views that may differ from the bible. For example, I don't believe it just to roast anyone forever because my conception of justice is one that includes the idea of proportionality. But there can be no proportionality in an infinite punishment applied for finite actions in a finite lifetime. That is a view that clashes with a theology that claims a just God sends people to eternal torment for telling a lie or sleeping with the wrong person in the wrong way or stealing a loaf of bread. I take issue with the idea of that as justice and assert one that I believe to be superior. But I don't claim it to be objective.



I think we have gotton off subject a little, my whole point is if a person has no purpose, and is truely time+matter+chance, how can you possibly bring up evil in that equation. A persons' life must have purpose to be able to call their actions or others actions against them evil. If you just happen to be here, and someone murders you, how can that possibly be evil? The sacredness of your life is gone in your atheistic framework.


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## stringmusic (Feb 24, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> That very thing never ceaces to amaze me.



From what or who do you receive your information?


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## ambush80 (Feb 24, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> From what or who do you receive your information?



Multiple sources.


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## stringmusic (Feb 24, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Multiple sources.



Can you name some?


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## ambush80 (Feb 24, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Can you name some?



The Bible, The Koran, Lyman's Reloading Manual, CNN, FOX, My mom, direct observation, past experience......

The subject matter in question determines the reference source(s) I use.


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## JFS (Feb 24, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I think we have gotton off subject a little, my whole point is if a person has no purpose, and is truely time+matter+chance, how can you possibly bring up evil in that equation.




But this is like saying you have to believe in Santa or else Christmas doesn't have any meaning.   The truth is that what happens Christmas day is the product of physics and human activity.  And yet somehow it can still be a meaningful event, and the prospect of relying on secular attribution of meaning doesn't possess me to abandon reason and start believing in old guys who keep a list of all my sins for the year and promise me a supernatural reward if I'm good.


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## stringmusic (Feb 24, 2011)

JFS said:


> But this is like saying you have to believe in Santa or else Christmas doesn't have any meaning.   The truth is that what happens Christmas day is the product of physics and human activity.  And yet somehow it can still be a meaningful event,


My post didnt have anything to do with believing in God. I simply stated if someone brings up the problem of evil, they are assuming purpose.




> and the prospect of relying on secular attribution of meaning doesn't possess me to abandon reason


Atheism is not completely base on reason, so what exactly would you be abandoning?



> and start believing in old guys who keep a list of all my sins for the year and promise me a supernatural reward if I'm good.



Not even close to how it works. Maybe you should look into exactly what your denying before you deny it.


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## stringmusic (Feb 24, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> The Bible, The Koran, Lyman's Reloading Manual, CNN, FOX, My mom, direct observation, past experience......
> 
> The subject matter in question determines the reference source(s) I use.



How do you know that you can trust the Bible in the instance that you choose to use it for a reference point?


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## StriperAddict (Feb 24, 2011)

JFS said:


> .... keep a list of all my sins for the year and promise me a supernatural reward if I'm good.


 
You might find it interesting that a Christian's stand with God has nothing to do with performance, but birthright. It's why God made families, to illustrate to us the importance of Spiritual birth.  Perhaps this is for another thread, sorry if I'm going off post.


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## vowell462 (Feb 24, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> The Bible, The Koran, Lyman's Reloading Manual, CNN, FOX, My mom, direct observation, past experience......
> 
> The subject matter in question determines the reference source(s) I use.



I like Lymans Reloading Manual...


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## ambush80 (Feb 24, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> How do you know that you can trust the Bible in the instance that you choose to use it for a reference point?



When used in conjunction with other reference material, some of its principles have proven to be useful.


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## JFS (Feb 24, 2011)

> Me: and start believing in old guys who keep a list of all my sins for the year and promise me a supernatural reward if I'm good.





stringmusic said:


> Not even close to how it works. Maybe you should look into exactly what your denying before you deny it.



I'm pretty sure I know how this Santa thing works, but I yield to your expertise on fictional beings. I still deny Santa exists until you prove otherwise.


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## JFS (Feb 24, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> My post didn't have anything to do with believing in God. I simply stated if someone brings up the problem of evil, they are assuming purpose.



Well, please explain further.  You said:



> _my whole point is if a person has no purpose, and is truely time+matter+chance, how can you possibly bring up evil in that equation_



What exactly is your contention on the connection between the time+matter+chance and purpose and evil, and what would you have to add to those to things to justify the concept of evil?


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## stringmusic (Feb 24, 2011)

JFS said:


> I'm pretty sure I know how this Santa thing works, but I yield to your expertise on fictional beings. I still deny Santa exists until you prove otherwise.



 I'm a goober, I assumed you were talking about God, sorry.


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## stringmusic (Feb 24, 2011)

JFS said:


> Well, please explain further.  You said:
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly is your contention on the connection between the time+matter+chance and purpose and evil, and* what would you have to add *to those to things to justify the concept of evil?



Ah, what you would have to add was not in the dicussion, but the answer is God.


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## stringmusic (Feb 24, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> When used in conjunction with other reference material, some of its principles have proven to be useful.



Have any of the principles not proven to be useful?


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## JFS (Feb 24, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Ah, what you would have to add was not in the dicussion, but the answer is God.



Which is why I was lost and  couldn't figure why you said: 



stringmusic said:


> My post didnt have anything to do with believing in God.



Secular ethics is a topic in itself:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_ethics

But maybe that should be its own thread?


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## stringmusic (Feb 24, 2011)

JFS said:


> Which is why I was lost and  couldn't figure why you said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds like a plan  If I get time today, I will try to start one.


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## ambush80 (Feb 24, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Have any of the principles not proven to be useful?



I have dismissed as unacceptable the notion that if I heard a voice telling me to kill my child as a sacrifice that I should do just that.


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## 1mamabearNC (Mar 16, 2011)

yeah they call that schizophrenia these days, not the Voice of God


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## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2011)

1mamabearNC said:


> yeah they call that schizophrenia these days, not the Voice of God



They may have called it that back then if they had a word for it.


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## atlashunter (Mar 16, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I think we have gotton off subject a little, my whole point is if a person has no purpose, and is truely time+matter+chance, how can you possibly bring up evil in that equation. A persons' life must have purpose to be able to call their actions or others actions against them evil. If you just happen to be here, and someone murders you, how can that possibly be evil? The sacredness of your life is gone in your atheistic framework.



I suppose it depends on what you mean by purpose and how you define evil. Anyone can decide for themselves what their purpose is in life. In fact they are the only ones capable of deciding. I can tell you the invisible man in the sky has a purpose for you and here is what it is, it's still left up to you to decide if you accept that claim. I'd say a person is perfectly capable of committing evil regardless of what they think about their reason for being here. If by purpose you mean some external being intended you to be here rather than your resulting from chance that is a bit problematic. Is the child conceived out of rape or incest the result of a chance event or were they part of a divine plan?


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## stringmusic (Mar 16, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Anyone can decide for themselves what their purpose is in life.


Right, but if you comment that a situation is evil, like the one I gave, your assuming their purpose was to live arent you? Your assuming the fact that a person took another persons life is an evil act, if a person has no ultimate purpose for being, does it really matter if they die?



> Is the child conceived out of rape or incest the result of a chance event or were they part of a divine plan?


We're talking about the act of the rape, not the child as a result. To answer your question I think God is a weaver of sorts, He could use the child from the result of an evil act to do great thing for His glory.


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## atlashunter (Mar 16, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Right, but if you comment that a situation is evil, like the one I gave, your assuming their purpose was to live arent you? Your assuming the fact that a person took another persons life is an evil act, if a person has no ultimate purpose for being, does it really matter if they die?



No I don't approach it in that way. This is just a variant of the "without God everything is permissable" argument. It's not up to me or you or anyone else to say what someone's purpose is. Who are we to say their purpose is to live? What if they disagree? Isn't that up to them to decide? What I say is their life is theirs to possess and do with as they please. I don't see murder as evil because it violates some contrived purpose. I see it as evil because it violates the self ownership of the victim. This is going to take us to different conclusions in certain cases. Based on what you are saying, it would be evil to kill oneself or to kill someone at their request. I don't find this evil. I think if someone wants to end their own life that is their right. I think in some cases it would actually be evil to deny them that choice and force them to live against their will.




stringmusic said:


> We're talking about the act of the rape, not the child as a result. To answer your question I think God is a weaver of sorts, He could use the child from the result of an evil act to do great thing for His glory.



We are talking about how the child came to be. I gathered from an earlier post of yours that time+matter+chance is not compatible with purpose. If someone was born out of an incestuous relationship the only possible way they could have got here was by incest. Only the genetic combination of their two particular parents in one specific way would result in that particular person. So if they are here because God intended them to be then the means by which they got here must have also had purpose.


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