# Suffering.......thoughts?



## bullethead (Jan 2, 2013)

Sunday afternoon my wife lost her Mother due to a long battle with Cancer. Long story short,  2 years ago my m-i-l was diagnosed with incurable cancer. After battling it with  Chemo and Radiation for those two years and constantly being sick and run down she decided back in May to not fight it anymore and try to live as normal a life as she could until the end.
I have mentioned numerous times before on here that she was deeply religious and set in her beliefs as a Catholic. We shared some of the longest most in depth conversations over the years. We were at opposite ends of the spectrum but respected each others beliefs. She was convinced she was going to a better place.
Anyway she was devout to the end of her life. She was a hard fighter and really did suffer greatly for the last six weeks and each day closer to the day she passed away was worse for her than the day before. Towards the last few weeks she was convinced that her suffering was punishment for past deeds....none of which would garner a sentence like that in any of the worlds cruelest courts. She took just enough medication to take a slight edge off of what she was really feeling. She did not want to be in a state of twilight. She wanted to be at home the whole time. Her children and family were with her daily and my wife and wife's brother and sister all stayed with their mother in shifts over the past 3 weeks 24/7. She could not have been better cared for in any hospital. Their mom never refused a visitor and was always worried she was "bad" company and apologized frequently. She was nothing of the sort. The last two weeks were very bad for her. Despite wonderful care from her family and hospice the cancer took a horrific toll. A once elegant woman was reduced to staying in one room, unable to stand or walk on her own, unable to eat or drink anything without bringing it right back up and unable to prevent from messing herself. She was long past ready. She made it past her birthday, past Xmas and was able to spend a lot of time with her family but she could not take any more of the cancer and all of the things that were associated with it. Every night for the week prior she prayed that when she closed her eyes it would be for the last time. She stayed conscious until the moment she passed. It was harsh,painful and violent. She never lost her faith and I never questioned her statements, but she made every excuse in the world for why she had to go through all this. She knew smoking was the cause, she knew it ultimately killed her. She never blamed anyone other than herself for getting to the condition she was in but she was certain her savior would not let her suffer, then made excuses as to why she did. 
I will admit. I prayed to whoever was or would or could listen. I begged not to let her suffer. I pleaded that it would be quick. I asked nightly for her to not be in pain that she was in. Every next day it was worse than the day before. My wife prayed. The entire family and friends prayed. Her congregation prayed. Begged would be more like it. I know at first it was to miraculously let her be healed and then it was for mercy. There was not a glimpse of either only horrific sights and memories to the end. 

I have never ever felt more appreciation for friends, family and neighbors.

I never heard more religious people question their God. I have never heard my wife and her family be more skeptical of a God. I will be extremely respectful to the well wishers at the viewing, but will have a hard time believing their words of encouragement when they include their merciful and loving version of their creator.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 2, 2013)

So sorry for your loss and her suffering. No words of encouragement here, I'll simply say that we went through the exact same thing with a friend about 40 days ago. It is terrible to see it happen and can't do anything.


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## hummdaddy (Jan 2, 2013)

sorry for your loss and pain n suffering you all endured...


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## bullethead (Jan 2, 2013)

I can't express how comforting your kind words are. It is amazing how people who live so far away and have never seen me or met me and most likely will never do in person can be so friendly and kind. I, we, appreciate your thoughts and yes also prayers. 

Do not hold back any thoughts for discussion though. I respect all of your respects but appreciate your conversation too.


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## Nicodemus (Jan 2, 2013)

I have no answers, but I know exactly what you went through, and truly hate it for you and your family. 16 years ago yesterday, I lost my Mother to an uncurable cancer that took 2 and a half years to kill her. It still hurts just as bad now as it did then, knowin` and seein` what she went through. I wish I knew the words to say that would help, but I don`t, but I do offer my regrets. 

Very few things in this world that I can say that I really hate, but cancer is one of them. And I mean that.


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## dawg2 (Jan 2, 2013)

Hospice has always been a great help in situations such as these.  I have seen it firsthand.  It definitely helps the patient and the family.


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## JB0704 (Jan 2, 2013)

I am very sorry for your loss, I am very sorry the end was so difficult.  I am not good with words, and in situations like these, none can help.  To whatever extent it helps I will pray for you and yours.

I know you wrote this to ellicit conversation, but I honestly don't know why suffering endures, and, I wish prayer worked the way we (people) wish it did.  I pray often, and sometimes wonder to what end, but, sometimes I think the prayer is to find peace with the end result more than to get the intervention we are looking for.  I don't know.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2013)

Sorry for your family's loss. It's very upsetting watching any human or animal suffer. Especially a loved one.
I don't believe your MIL's suffering was inflicted by God because of anything bad that she did. I don't believe we have to cause suffering to ourselves to pay homage to God. We don't have to wear long sleeve shirts in the summer as a sacrifice to God.
We can inflict pain & suffering on ourselves but through our own actions, diet, lack of medical exams, etc. Some suffering is from random events that nature bestows upon us. It's the luck of the draw so to speak, like getting hit by a bus. Thousands of people smoke crack daily. I could smoke it once and die instantly from my heart exploding.
I know this doesn't explain the suffering your MIL went through and nothing we say can really help but maybe it's good to discuss it since you asked.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 2, 2013)




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## vowell462 (Jan 2, 2013)

Very sorry for your loss bullet. My thoughts are with you and your family. Really hate to hear this.

As far as my thoughts on suffering, who knows. Its the questions like this that spark our beliefs or make them question what we are taught or comfortably indoctrinated into. We just don't have the answers. Nobody does.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 3, 2013)

I can only imagine how terrible it's  been for you and your family to watch as your beloved mother in law endured what we all consider to be an unthinkable death.  It's so so bad.  I witnessed a family deal with the slow death of their 7 year old daughter from cancer.  Three years of agony.  

I know there's such relief in your mind and heart now that your mil has passed.  Your wife will need your strength for the next few days.  I'm confident that she'll get the best you have to offer.
There aren't a lot of answers right now.  There's too much anger and sadness and grief.  There are too many unanswered questions.  Be very wary of any Christian who pretends to have all the answers....... you know they don't.
Right now faith might be struggling for some of your family, but you wait and see.  They are going to come to terms with this in the future, and their faith with stand stronger than before.
I get the impression much of this dear ladies pain and suffering came from her strong will to feel it all, rather than being numbed with medication.  And that was her choosing.  Might not be mine, but it was hers.  She did it the way she wanted it.  I don't blame her.  Anyway, my thoughts and prayers will be with you during the next few days.

Now, please let me give you a response that I've given many times before during times of death and grief.
Human life is just plain complicated.  I enjoyed a wonderful vanilla milkshake this afternoon.  At the very same time, a soldier in afghanistan was being wounded by a shot from a distant hill.
My mil has had both knees replaced twice and one hip replaced once.  My wife is now showing signs of the same problems.
My wife carried our first baby for 9 painful months.  He died during birth.
My daughter's first child died within the womb in it's 7th month.  She then had 5 miscarriages before she finally gave birth to a beautiful grandson.
I have a 44 year old son that I haven't seen or heard from in over fifteen years..... and I don't even know why.

Like I said:  Human life is very confusing.  It's harsh.  Sometimes we reap what we sow, and sometimes we reap as a result of things beyond our control.  I don't think there are any real answers.  There obviously is the God answer, but even though I believe that answer I have to admit that it's confusing.

I believe we'll all handle our own deaths much better than we'll handle anyone elses.  Your mil was a strong woman.  And I'll bet you're all better people by knowing her.

I'm so sorry for this time for your family.


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## gemcgrew (Jan 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I never heard more religious people question their God. I have never heard my wife and her family be more skeptical of a God. I will be extremely respectful to the well wishers at the viewing, but will have a hard time believing their words of encouragement when they include their merciful and loving version of their creator.



These were my thoughts some 28 years ago and I understand the pain and anguish. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

My mother was 48 when she died with cancer. I was 21 and my youngest brother was 12. She lived about a year after diagnosed. I watched her hair fall out and her flesh sink into the skeleton. The last week of her life was absolutely unbearable for me. This woman that was always there for me in my pain, sickness and suffering, I selfishly abandoned. As I walked past her bedroom, I could not look her way. She called me to her side one day and while holding my hand, she said "I understand".


She died as she lived, praising God. A God that no longer existed for me. A man that I worked with told me that my mother lacked faith or she would have been healed. In my mind, as he stood there, I gutted him with a knife. God did not exist for me, for several years. If I could go back and change anything, I wouldn't change a thing.

I thank you for causing me to stop and again reflect on her suffering, and on mine. I remember her saying, "Son remember, it is the goodness of God that leads you to repentance".


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## Four (Jan 3, 2013)

Man i'm sorry, these kinds of things are what ground the conversation into reality.. the hard truths.

I for one, hope that euthanasia is legalized soon.

~~~EDIT~~~

On the topic of suffering... i don't believe vengeance or punishment is valid. I prefer rehabilitation and restitution. Naturally i understand causality but what i'm saying is i don't think torture is ever morally just. Be it by a deity or otherwise.


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## stringmusic (Jan 3, 2013)

Dang Bullet, sorry for the news brother. You and your family are in my prayers. I've never been through anything like you described, I can't imagine.



As far a suffering goes, I wish you could speak to her now...


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## bullethead (Jan 3, 2013)

I thank everyone that took a moment out of their life to respond. Your personal remarks are well appreciated at this time.


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## bullethead (Jan 3, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> As far a suffering goes, I wish you could speak to her now...



string, her and I made a deal. IF it is possible she will contact me. IF it is possible she will somehow someway let me know there is something for her after death.

I would like to think the waiting room is now organized to an OCD induced methodical re-arranging and there is not a thing out of alphabetical order or magazine out of alignment. I smile thinking that the tassels on the welcome mat at the pearly gates have been untangled and combed straight. I chuckle knowing that IF she got to where she knew she was going that she gave the head honcho an earful about her suffering. 
But I am confident that I will never know.


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## Snackdaddy66 (Jan 3, 2013)

bullethead,

First, my condolences go out to you and your family.  I have experienced a very similar death with my M.I.L. and a dear Aunt (that actually came to my family home to live out the balance of her life).  Currently, my mother is battling Alzheimer's (4 years) and I would have rather seen her have cancer because the AZ took away a very vivacious, friendly, caring person and turned her into a lady that is constantly in fear and can't form a sentence.  I often ask the same question you have presented.  My faith is not something that came early in life, I was almost 37, when I truly became a believer (I am 46 now).  I still don't know the answer, but I do know there is a lot of information in the Bible about pain and suffering.  You can Google the topic (one of the best examples is in Samuel regarding David's loss).  We may not see the reason for the pain and suffering, but as hard as it is to do, we need to trust there is a good reason and part of God's plan.  I have way too any examples of what I have personally witnessed as "grace" by a loving God, not to believe.  I didn't take time to notice until I became a true believer and looked for them.  I am not sure if this is any help at all, but I wanted to respond and let you know, you are not alone.  I would be happy to discuss what I have witnessed if you are interested.  Again, my thoughts and prayers are with you during your time of pain.


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## bullethead (Jan 3, 2013)

Thanks for sharing


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## Ronnie T (Jan 3, 2013)

I got you and your family on my mind this afternoon.
.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 3, 2013)

Very sorry BH, for you and your family, and your Mother In Law. I don't have any answers, just heartfelt sympathy.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 3, 2013)

In a sense, you find comfort in knowing that people understand what your going through, but on the other hand, you wish that no one has to go through such


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 3, 2013)

Bart Erhman, some of you are familiar with him. He migrated away from faith. Mostly because, his words, "all the pain and suffering while the heavens remain silent".


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## gordon 2 (Jan 3, 2013)

My dad died of cancer similar to your mil. I can emphatize with the suffering you talk about. It is not fun. I am also a nurse and have cared for many palative pts... and their families...and for this I know where you are coming from.

I am going to ramble with thoughts right now...but you don`t have to listen to anything I say... I just what to be with you...if that is what you are comfortable with. So you can tune my voice out... I am the person, the body, the spirit next to you.

We die as we have lived. Dieing from lung cancer that has matastasized with expected death two yrs after diagnosis ...is really cramming the last twenty yrs of a normal life span in 2 yrs. The golden yrs is all about suffering and two yrs with terminal lung CA is similar except x 10 or 20 or 40... on the wasting scale...

Life is about suffering...in that out bodies and its system are corroded by oxygen plus wear and tare. The systems fail eventually...Lung Ca makes it visible in a relatively short time span.

What is the difference between a heart attack and a tsunami to the people they kill...

Now people are much more than their bodies... they are also spiritual for lack of a better term. Both family member and the dieing person are spiritual. When someone suffers because their bodies are being ravaged by Ca...they are perhaps suffering spiritually as well, or perhaps they are growing spiritually. Perhaps family members are suffering spiritually or growing spiritually in these very difficult times... Some know exactly by instict what to do, others are at a loss or at their wits ends... Everyone is different spiritually...even though we all suffer through life similarly...although at differing paces...

Being born is suffeing, living life is suffering... the end of life and dieing is suffering. But what makes us human beings is our spirituality... even if it is raising a fist at God, or at Jesus, or  at the Great Creator....etc... 

The greatest pain in life is spiritual pain...for all concerned. As a christian who believes and tries to follow to the best of his ability... Jesus offers a way out of spiritual depression for all concerned. The sting of death --of aging-- with all its physical, emotional and spiritual suffeing can be minimized by faith.  Life and its dieing processes( which is a part of life) even from cruel CA of the lungs needs not beat us up about our lot in suffering. It can show up our spirit and the spirit of the people who suround us.

Your mother in law problably suffered a lot because of you wife. ( With all respect to her.) She suffered by giving her life. She suffered when she had to stay awake at night and worried if she sould call the Dr. when she was sick.  She suffered when she was hurt as a mother...by an axious and immature young adult... etc.. And she suffered so you could be blessed with the most beautiful partner in your life.

 And in the end she suffered all her life, not only at the end of it, and through her spirit even in all the suffering, ``she lived`` so that you and I could be better people not for the suffering but for that life and  all our lives that happen amonst the thorns and roses of it.

I have said nothing that silence and an affectionate handshake cannot say... I offer you both. I suffer with you... willingly....my friend. For you my suffering may it not be taken away.


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## bullethead (Jan 3, 2013)

Peace to all of you and heartfelt sincere thanks.


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## atlashunter (Jan 4, 2013)

Very sorry to hear of this. It's such a shame that she spent her last days believing she had earned the suffering she was enduring. I guess that is a price of faith. I hope her faith also brought her comfort and peace of mind. The reality of suffering is harsh. I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation for it from the religious although it demands an explanation given their world view.

It is stories like yours which provide me with proper context when I hear someone speak of how God helped them find a job or pass an exam in school or find a lost ring on a beach.


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## atlashunter (Jan 4, 2013)

Wanted to share this too. Hitchens thoughts on suffering and dying while he endured cancer. Maybe it will add something of value to the conversation.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 4, 2013)

atlashunter said:


> Very sorry to hear of this. It's such a shame that she spent her last days believing she had earned the suffering she was enduring. I guess that is a price of faith. I hope her faith also brought her comfort and peace of mind. The reality of suffering is harsh. I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation for it from the religious although it demands an explanation given their world view.
> 
> It is stories like yours which provide me with proper context when I hear someone speak of how God helped them find a job or pass an exam in school or find a lost ring on a beach.



I think the fact that we all hear so many different views of suffering from the religious and nonreligious proves how complex the subject is.  There's millions of unanswerable questions concerning this subject.
What causes cancer?  What causes birthdefects?  What causes a person to become such a drunk that he destroys his family and his own life?
And no one has the answer to any of it.

In simple truth, if you've been born you're gonna die.  When your mother dies, understand this, she wasn't the first and she won't be the last.  We're all going to die!  Come to terms with it.  And don't question it.  The answers  aren't there.

Recently, a young lady was almost killed in an auto accident.  While visiting her room another lady came for a visit and suddenly blurted out, "I know that my dead son was there protecting you during that accident.  He was being your guardian angel during the accident and he'll be here during your recovery, so you need to realize that!"
I said:  "What!"  "Where'd you get that idea lady?"...... And the conversation continued for a while.

We all believe things about death that we shouldn't believe.  We all seem to have an answer.

I know this for sure.....  "Get rid of automobiles and we'll stop having auto accidents that kill entire families!"


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## gtparts (Jan 4, 2013)

Moved by your concern and compassion for your m-i-l and for your family's loss. 

As for suffering, it seems to come with the 'territory' and in different degrees. Like rain, it falls on the good and the bad. One might ask "Why?". I would say "Why not?". Even the best that mankind has to offer have lived out personal failures and transgressions against others, either omissions or commissions.  How often have we all come short of a perfect standard of behavior? 

Perhaps it is more a matter of perspective. C.S. Lewis gave us this view. The too soon death of his wife allowed him to eventually see and understand, at least in part, the nature of human existence and the grace of a loving God.


"For what you see and hear depends a good deal on where you are standing: it also depends on what sort of person you are."
~ The Magician's Nephew from C.S. Lewis' "The Chronicles of Narnia"

Your m-i-l had an eternal hope that will not go unmet. The faith that she held to the end of her life here, was not based on superstition or faulty reason, but on revealed truth. How quickly would anyone abandon mere superstition for the certainty that she held dear?

You stand where you stand and see a pointless and futile response to what, to you, is the final moment of an individual life. You have come to some acceptance of that. 

As a person of faith, I hold an expectation shared by many, including your m-i-l. It puts a totally different face on suffering. When the Christian sees the faithfulness of those going through the valley of the shadow of death with unwavering commitment, God is glorified. My prayer is that one day you will see the glory in your mother-in-law's life, first breath to last, and the one to whom she entrusted her eternity, as your living Lord, too.


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## atlashunter (Jan 4, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I think the fact that we all hear so many different views of suffering from the religious and nonreligious proves how complex the subject is.  There's millions of unanswerable questions concerning this subject.
> What causes cancer?  What causes birthdefects?  What causes a person to become such a drunk that he destroys his family and his own life?
> And no one has the answer to any of it.



If I were just conversing with the run of the mill fallible and ignorant human being (such as myself) then unanswered questions are perfectly acceptable. However when someone tells me they have a book that is the word of the all knowing all powerful creator of the universe and they are in direct communication with that creator then that raises the expectations just a bit. Their claims that have that assumption as their foundation will be subjected to greater scrutiny and it is reasonable to expect they would have answers to questions that only a god could provide. So far, the answers all seem to match the limitations of the humans making them which leads me to question the divinely revealed knowledge they claim access to.




Ronnie T said:


> In simple truth, if you've been born you're gonna die.  When your mother dies, understand this, she wasn't the first and she won't be the last.  We're all going to die!  Come to terms with it.  And don't question it.  The answers  aren't there.



For me there is only a need to question it when a god is introduced into the picture. Without a god the world makes much more sense. We are mortal beings living finite lives just like the dinosaurs and every other living creature that has ever been. As such, we share their fate. That reality stands with indifference toward how we feel about it. It is neither good or evil, it simply is. Just as with every other fact of reality it is left to us to decide how we deal with it. We can accept it and make the best of it. We can respond with fear, anger, or depression. We can avoid it by making up comforting fantasies and deluding ourselves and each other. One thing is for sure though. The reality remains regardless of our response to it and without a god there is no one to blame or to credit for that reality. The only place for accountability is to ourselves.


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## gemcgrew (Jan 4, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> And no one has the answer to any of it.



"And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?"

"What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?"

"And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."


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## Snackdaddy66 (Jan 4, 2013)

Atlashunter,

There will always be believers and not believers and have been since the times of Christ.  I chose to believe and have faith because I have "witnessed"/"experienced" the unexplainable.  I will give you three recent examples: (info will be choppy and bullet pointed for brevity

Last summer - mission trip to Upstate New York - my children's youth group was assigned a house of a lady with pancreatic cancer - she told us she had less than 6 months - early in the week she told the kids she loved roses and before she got down she had many rose bushes in her borders - the boarder looked like an absolute jungle with no visible flowers when we arrived.  After three days of walking all through her yard (15 kids-3 adults), we had wore a visible path in her yard - on the 4th day we arrive and in the middle of the beaten down grass stood a red rose about 8" off the ground.  The kids cut the rose and carried it into her.  I stunned started at the left over stem in the ground and trailed it back to a bush that was buried in weeds and overgrowth in her border - the bush did not look alive.

We prayed with this lady every night and she was to have a follow up with the oncologist the Monday we were returning.  One of the other youth leaders received a call that following Thursday from her daughter and they had run two days of test on her and could not find the cancer.  (my m.i.l. died of pancreatic cancer and I know the prognosis for that particular type is dim.

Several months ago, another lady at church had been diagnosed with breast cancer that had spread.  One Sunday as we are sitting in church - something happened to me - my mind began to tell me to go over to the lady and put my hand on her chest and tell her things were going to be ok and to keep the faith.  You don't know me, but I would have never in a million years done that.  In fact I struggled through the rest of the service trying to talk myself out of doing it.  We went to Sunday school and I spent another hour willing myself not to do it.  As we were leaving and I practically bumbed into her and her husband and children on the way out.  I told her what i was being told to do and did it.  My wife thought I had lost my every loving mind because she knows I would never do something like that.  I got a call the following week and her cancer had gone into remission.

There is no way anyone can tell me that things like that happen randomly.  Did the lady in NY live through pancreatic cancer to show a group of christian children coming into their faith there was a God?  I don't know or question the motive, but I know it happened

Why do bad things happen to good people, I can't answer that either.  I also can't prove to you that oxygen, the wind, etc exist with physical proof.  You can see the results that they exist, but physically can't see them.  It is much easier to be a non-believer, but I would rather go through life like the original poster's m.i.l, believing and having faith.  If I am wrong (which I don't believe I am) then nothing lost except living a life in which I tried to do the right things.  If I am right, well you can read the book and see what is in store for me.


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## atlashunter (Jan 4, 2013)

snackdaddy,

That was a lovely testimonial.


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## bullethead (Jan 4, 2013)

atlashunter said:


> Very sorry to hear of this. It's such a shame that she spent her last days believing she had earned the suffering she was enduring. I guess that is a price of faith. I hope her faith also brought her comfort and peace of mind. The reality of suffering is harsh. I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation for it from the religious although it demands an explanation given their world view.
> 
> It is stories like yours which provide me with proper context when I hear someone speak of how God helped them find a job or pass an exam in school or find a lost ring on a beach.



agreed


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## Ronnie T (Jan 4, 2013)

atlashunter said:


> Very sorry to hear of this. It's such a shame that she spent her last days believing she had earned the suffering she was enduring. I guess that is a price of faith. I hope her faith also brought her comfort and peace of mind. The reality of suffering is harsh. I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation for it from the religious although it demands an explanation given their world view.
> 
> It is stories like yours which provide me with proper context when I hear someone speak of how God helped them find a job or pass an exam in school or find a lost ring on a beach.





bullethead said:


> agreed



I agree.
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## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> "And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."



Why did they think sin was the cause of his blindness?
Why did God heal this man and not other blind people? Where in  those verses does it say God made him blind? The works of God manifest in him was the healing. God doesn't make people blind on purpose so that he can pick a few out to heal. I can't explain who he chooses to heal. Perhaps the power of prayer is involved. 
Now we get back to, how can we give God credit for the good things in life and not the bad? In Snackdaddy's testimony, he gives God the glory for saving the lives of some but not the glory for letting the others die. What about my freewill to eat cancer causing foods or heart troubling foods? Do I have any control over my destiny? If God is in total control please let me know because it would sure be a load off my mind. I might want to go an a wild drinking spree and drive home drunk knowing that if it's not my time, i'll make it home safe. I pray for my daughter's safety every night for some Godly intervention. Am I wasting my time?
Can I have it both ways? I want free will but I want God to jump in and control some things. Reminds me of what children want from Earthly parents. They want it both ways. Freedom and guidance/security.


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## gemcgrew (Jan 4, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why did they think sin was the cause of his blindness?
> Why did God heal this man and not other blind people? Where in  those verses does it say God made him blind? The works of God manifest in him was the healing. God doesn't make people blind on purpose so that he can pick a few out to heal. I can't explain who he chooses to heal. Perhaps the power of prayer is involved.
> Now we get back to, how can we give God credit for the good things in life and not the bad? In Snackdaddy's testimony, he gives God the glory for saving the lives of some but not the glory for letting the others die. What about my freewill to eat cancer causing foods or heart troubling foods? Do I have any control over my destiny? If God is in total control please let me know because it would sure be a load off my mind. I might want to go an a wild drinking spree and drive home drunk knowing that if it's not my time, i'll make it home safe. I pray for my daughter's safety every night for some Godly intervention. Am I wasting my time?
> Can I have it both ways? I want free will but I want God to jump in and control some things. Reminds me of what children want from Earthly parents. They want it both ways. Freedom and guidance/security.


Art, I provided the first 3 scriptures that came to mind and answered what was proposed to be unanswerable questions. Those questions and your questions are not difficult if you believe the Bible has any cogency whatsoever.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 5, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Art, I provided the first 3 scriptures that came to mind and answered what was proposed to be unanswerable questions. Those questions and your questions are not difficult if you believe the Bible has any cogency whatsoever.



And I thank you for your answers. In your religion answers do come easy. I commend your religion for this. It has to be very comforting. 
In my religion I see more mystery. I see conflict between my free will and God's intervention. I'm caught somewhere in between. I agree it's not easy and yearn to believe as you do. I could sleep peacefully knowing nothing I do makes any difference. When my daughters get off late at work and are on there way home, I would love to believe that God has decided at the beginning of time that either they'll make it home or they want. But God decided for me to not feel that way. I worry for them as they drive through the night to their homes. I pray for God to guide them. It's probably just a waste of time but it makes me feel better. It's the HOPE I read about in the Bible. Hope is is the only thing  us free willers are left with. New hope, good hope: hope is my albatross.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 5, 2013)

I can't and don't blame God for all the suffering, murders, and carnage in the world. I don't blame Satan either. I blame some of it on man and some to fate. God and Satan guide man to make the right or wrong  choices. Eating the right foods, drinking and driving, unprotected sex, and spousal abuse. These are man's choices. Getting killed by an earthquake, hurricane, bacteria, or cancer are caused by fate. They could be influenced by man as in eating the wrong foods, smoking, or staying on the beach during a hurricane. Can God intervene? Yes he can, he's God, he can do whatever he wants to. when does he do this? I don't know. Why does he only do it sometimes? I don't know. Why does he only answer some prayers? I don't know. Why does Chili only give me heartburn sometimes? Only God knows.


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## hummerpoo (Jan 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> *I want *free will but *I want *God to jump in and control some things.
> Reminds me of what children want...



A childlike perspective?
I'm pretty sure this is why you can't accept the answers you have received again and again.


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I can't and don't blame God for all the suffering, murders, and carnage in the world. I don't blame Satan either. I blame some of it on man and some to fate. God and Satan guide man to make the right or wrong  choices. Eating the right foods, drinking and driving, unprotected sex, and spousal abuse. These are man's choices. Getting killed by an earthquake, hurricane, bacteria, or cancer are caused by fate. They could be influenced by man as in eating the wrong foods, smoking, or staying on the beach during a hurricane. Can God intervene? Yes he can, he's God, he can do whatever he wants to. when does he do this? I don't know. Why does he only do it sometimes? I don't know. Why does he only answer some prayers? I don't know. Why does Chili only give me heartburn sometimes? Only God knows.



Imagine for a moment that "stuff" just happens.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 5, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Imagine for a moment that "stuff" just happens.



I do believe "stuff" just happens, but not like "Determinism" describes it. More like "randomness". To stay on the topic of suffering, as an example if my hip starts hurting, it could be a random thing. It could also be influenced by how i'm sitting.
I don't believe God said millions of years ago, I think i'll have Art eat some bad Mexican food and wake up with diarrhea. 
The chances of me getting diarrhea are caused by the randomness or luck of the draw of what I eat. Then comes the suffering.
A hangover is the suffering caused by over drinking. It might feel like punishment and if it is it's self inflected. God didn't cause you to drink too much and if you have a wreck on the way home and kill somebody, it's your fault. Brain chemicals or determinism didn't cause you to drink to much. 
Stuff does just happen but that doesn't take away man's responsibility.


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I do believe "stuff" just happens, but not like "Determinism" describes it. More like "randomness". To stay on the topic of suffering, as an example if my hip starts hurting, it could be a random thing. It could also be influenced by how i'm sitting.
> I don't believe God said millions of years ago, I think i'll have Art eat some bad Mexican food and wake up with diarrhea.
> The chances of me getting diarrhea are caused by the randomness or luck of the draw of what I eat. Then comes the suffering.
> A hangover is the suffering caused by over drinking. It might feel like punishment and if it is it's self inflected. God didn't cause you to drink too much and if you have a wreck on the way home and kill somebody, it's your fault. Brain chemicals or determinism didn't cause you to drink to much.
> Stuff does just happen but that doesn't take away man's responsibility.



I meant ALL the "stuff"; no angels, no demons, no devil, no god.  What would the state of things be without "them"?  It would be exactly like it is now.


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## JB0704 (Jan 5, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> It would be exactly like it is now.



Unless, Genesis 1:1 is correct.


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Unless, Genesis 1:1 is correct.



If Genesis 1:1 is correct then there is a chance that as Gemcgrew points out, some of us are "vessels of wrath"; born to suffer and deserving of whatever misery we get.

That's swell.........


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## JB0704 (Jan 5, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> If Genesis 1:1 is correct then there is a chance that as Gemcgrew points out, some of us are "vessels of wrath"; born to suffer and deserving of whatever misery we get.
> 
> That's swell.........



Doctrine aside, my point was that our state of being would be greatly affected by God / no God if God did create the heavens and the Earth.


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Doctrine aside, my point was that our state of being would be greatly affected by God / no God if God did create the heavens and the Earth.



Since we can't really tell whether or not a god is pulling any strings the only thing affected by belief/dis-belief is how we deal with the happy or the suck.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 5, 2013)

And that's the way it is.
Those who believe in the God of creation continue to live life to it's fullest, whether in good times or bad.  And those who do not believe in God continue to live in the randomness of existance.

I'm not sure that's the direction Bullethead was really looking for this subject to go?


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## JB0704 (Jan 5, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Since we can't really tell whether or not a god is pulling any strings the only thing affected by belief/dis-belief is how we deal with the happy or the suck.



Let's assume no God.  Doesn't that affect how you deal with things?  The value of your actions are whatever you assign to them.  Eventually, even those actions which are of the greatest value still have zero consequence, because there is no purpose.....just chance.  If you are just chance, then everybody around you is also.  That means that nothing or nobody carries any more value within the universe than a speck of dust.

Is that correct?  That's how I felt when I convinced myself many years ago that there might not be a god.  It felt very lonely and life felt meaningless.  

So, believing in God gives me purpose within the universe.  So, yes, it affects how I deal with things.  It keeps my feet firmly planted when otherwise I would over-analyze my existence, and eventually conclude that I am no more than dust.  That would suck.


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## bullethead (Jan 6, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> And that's the way it is.
> Those who believe in the God of creation continue to live life to it's fullest, whether in good times or bad.  And those who do not believe in God continue to live in the randomness of existance.
> 
> I'm not sure that's the direction Bullethead was really looking for this subject to go?



I do not mind one a bit the twists and turns a thread takes. It keeps us thinking.


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## bullethead (Jan 6, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Let's assume no God.  Doesn't that affect how you deal with things?  The value of your actions are whatever you assign to them.  Eventually, even those actions which are of the greatest value still have zero consequence, because there is no purpose.....just chance.  If you are just chance, then everybody around you is also.  That means that nothing or nobody carries any more value within the universe than a speck of dust.
> 
> Is that correct?  That's how I felt when I convinced myself many years ago that there might not be a god.  It felt very lonely and life felt meaningless.
> 
> So, believing in God gives me purpose within the universe.  So, yes, it affects how I deal with things.  It keeps my feet firmly planted when otherwise I would over-analyze my existence, and eventually conclude that I am no more than dust.  That would suck.



Does it happen to be that people with those meaningless feelings make up a God to OWE it all to in order to make themselves feel better?
I know myself and plenty of other people that seem to get by better than OK just going through life being a random speck of dust. The value of my actions have been honed by society, family, friends, and self. As did people who lived long before any handbook to tell us how to act and who to worship was written.


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## ambush80 (Jan 6, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> And that's the way it is.
> Those who believe in the God of creation continue to live life to it's fullest, whether in good times or bad.  And those who do not believe in God continue to live in the randomness of existance.
> 
> I'm not sure that's the direction Bullethead was really looking for this subject to go?





JB0704 said:


> Let's assume no God.  Doesn't that affect how you deal with things?  The value of your actions are whatever you assign to them.  Eventually, even those actions which are of the greatest value still have zero consequence, because there is no purpose.....just chance.  If you are just chance, then everybody around you is also.  That means that nothing or nobody carries any more value within the universe than a speck of dust.
> 
> Is that correct?  That's how I felt when I convinced myself many years ago that there might not be a god.  It felt very lonely and life felt meaningless.
> 
> So, believing in God gives me purpose within the universe.  So, yes, it affects how I deal with things.  It keeps my feet firmly planted when otherwise I would over-analyze my existence, and eventually conclude that I am no more than dust.  That would suck.





bullethead said:


> Does it happen to be that people with those meaningless feelings make up a God to OWE it all to in order to make themselves feel better?
> I know myself and plenty of other people that seem to get by better than OK just going through life being a random speck of dust. The value of my actions have been honed by society, family, friends, and self. As did people who lived long before any handbook to tell us how to act and who to worship was written.



A speck of dust is pretty incredible, whether or not a god made it.  If believing in a god is the only thing that puts the beauty in the spots on a brook trout then I kind of feel sorry for you ('you' in the general sense).

Conversely, if you can see the pain and suffering in the world and attribute it to some deities master 'plan' or the result of your carrying the guilt of 'original sin' then I feel doubly sorry for you.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 6, 2013)

Mr Bullet, I am so sorry for your great loss. My prayers are with you and your family. My mama and daddy  died because of smoking and it was horrible to watch them suffer both physically and emotionally. I pray for both peace and understanding for you and your family, even though I doubt we'll ever understand it, at least not in this life. 

I'm also saddened at the other stories in this thread and hope you all can find some kind of peace in it.

ETA...you pretty much know what I believe and I believe your loved one is walking on the shores of heaven, safe and secure in His arms. No more suffering or tears and she's saying to y'all...'wish you were here'.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 6, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> A speck of dust is pretty incredible, whether or not a god made it.  If believing in a god is the only thing that puts the beauty in the spots on a brook trout then I kind of feel sorry for you ('you' in the general sense).
> 
> Conversely, if you can see the pain and suffering in the world and attribute it to some deities master 'plan' or the result of your carrying the guilt of 'original sin' then I feel doubly sorry for you.



I appreciate the sentiment, but you don't have to feel sorry for us who know and believe God.  We accept troubles and death as a part of life.  The troubles of this life are a momentary inconvience.  I've survived all the troubles that have come my way.  I no longer question them..... I survive them.  One of these day I'll have used up my days on this earth and go to that which awaits me.

People have been living and dying since the beginning.  No one has lived forever on this earth. It's a pretty good sign of maturity when we people come to grips with it.

To use it as a switch to beat against Christians will have no impact on a believer.

My mom and dad both died.  No one was shocked and devestated with it came.  A friend of mine is having his lifesupport disconnected this afternoon.  Once again, the doctors have failed to keep us on this side of death.... and they never will.

"It is appointed unto man to once die!".


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## atlashunter (Jan 6, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> "It is appointed unto man to once die!".



Except for Elijah. Always has to be an exception to the rule doesn't there?


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## atlashunter (Jan 6, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Let's assume no God.  Doesn't that affect how you deal with things?  The value of your actions are whatever you assign to them.  Eventually, even those actions which are of the greatest value still have zero consequence, because there is no purpose.....just chance.  If you are just chance, then everybody around you is also.  That means that nothing or nobody carries any more value within the universe than a speck of dust.
> 
> Is that correct?  That's how I felt when I convinced myself many years ago that there might not be a god.  It felt very lonely and life felt meaningless.
> 
> So, believing in God gives me purpose within the universe.  So, yes, it affects how I deal with things.  It keeps my feet firmly planted when otherwise I would over-analyze my existence, and eventually conclude that I am no more than dust.  That would suck.



Is that why you believe or does it just happen to be an added benefit?


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## ambush80 (Jan 6, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I appreciate the sentiment, but you don't have to feel sorry for us who know and believe God.  We accept troubles and death as a part of life.  The troubles of this life are a momentary inconvience.  I've survived all the troubles that have come my way.  I no longer question them..... I survive them.  One of these day I'll have used up my days on this earth and go to that which awaits me.
> 
> People have been living and dying since the beginning.  No one has lived forever on this earth. It's a pretty good sign of maturity when we people come to grips with it.
> 
> ...





Ronnie T said:


> And that's the way it is.
> Those who believe in the God of creation continue to live life to it's fullest, whether in good times or bad.  And those who do not believe in God continue to live in the randomness of existance.
> 
> I'm not sure that's the direction Bullethead was really looking for this subject to go?



I wasn't trying to admonish believers.  I was trying to illustrate that to non-believers, those of us that realize that this is our only chance, that each day is precious. No re-do's. No "I'll see my estranged relative in Heaven". No "I won't remember my unbelieving father when I get to Heaven".  No "it's all my fault and I'm just no good". No forgiveness.

This is it.  Make it count.  Roll in the pain like a dog on a dead bird.  Pull on that bass like it's the last one you'll ever get--and grin, not as if it pales in comparison to some 'Heaven bass'.


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## JB0704 (Jan 6, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> A speck of dust is pretty incredible, whether or not a god made it.  If believing in a god is the only thing that puts the beauty in the spots on a brook trout then I kind of feel sorry for you ('you' in the general sense).



Aren't we talking about what affect God's existence has on our state of being?  The spots, though beautiful, are either a chance occurence, or a work of art.  As I stated previously, either we assign value to something, or value is given.  Who's value is greater?  I dunno.  All I can give you is my perspective.



			
				bullethead said:
			
		

> Does it happen to be that people with those meaningless feelings make up a God to OWE it all to in order to make themselves feel better?



Or, God exists giving meaning to our existence.



			
				bullethead said:
			
		

> I know myself and plenty of other people that seem to get by better than OK just going through life being a random speck of dust.



I believe that, and have never indicated otherwise.  I am certain there are millions of happy, productive, family-loving skeptics in this world.  I am just sharing my thoughts on the matter with you.  I never intended to make a statement on yours.




			
				bullethead said:
			
		

> The value of my actions have been honed by society, family, friends, and self. As did people who lived long before any handbook to tell us how to act and who to worship was written.



Such value is relevant to the person assigning it.  And, in the grand scheme of things, no more than the amazing dust particle if there is no God.

That being said, I do believe you are perfectly happy and comfortable with such a reality.


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## JB0704 (Jan 6, 2013)

atlashunter said:


> Is that why you believe or does it just happen to be an added benefit?



I believe in God because of the OC issue.  I don't buy "infinite everything" as a viable alternative.  

I have shared this before, but will again..... I tried very hard to ditch my belief system for a few years.  I had many of the same questions relevant to evil, existence, the Bible, and prayer that I have heard you guys asking repeatedly on here.  I don't know if I was ever fully agnostic, or if I was a deist who was posing agnostic.....either way, I went back to Christianity when I couldn't logic around the OC.

During that time, I sat in a treestand one morning watching stars, and saw a satelite moving across the sky.  It looked like a small moving star.  50+ miles over my head, in space.  Then I considered the stars, and how they are millions of miles away.  How big is the universe?  How small does that make me?  I felt very, very small in that moment without God.


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## bullethead (Jan 6, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Mr Bullet, I am so sorry for your great loss. My prayers are with you and your family. My mama and daddy  died because of smoking and it was horrible to watch them suffer both physically and emotionally. I pray for both peace and understanding for you and your family, even though I doubt we'll ever understand it, at least not in this life.
> 
> I'm also saddened at the other stories in this thread and hope you all can find some kind of peace in it.
> 
> ETA...you pretty much know what I believe and I believe your loved one is walking on the shores of heaven, safe and secure in His arms. No more suffering or tears and she's saying to y'all...'wish you were here'.



Many appreciative thanks from me and my family to you Ms. Annie.


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## gemcgrew (Jan 6, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Roll in the pain like a dog on a dead bird.


Or as a dog that returneth to his vomit.


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## gtparts (Jan 7, 2013)

atlashunter said:


> Except for Elijah. Always has to be an exception to the rule doesn't there?



And, of course, Enoch.


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## ambush80 (Jan 7, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Or as a dog that returneth to his vomit.



There's still some good nutrition in there.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 7, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I wasn't trying to admonish believers.  I was trying to illustrate that to non-believers, those of us that realize that this is our only chance, that each day is precious. No re-do's. No "I'll see my estranged relative in Heaven". No "I won't remember my unbelieving father when I get to Heaven".  No "it's all my fault and I'm just no good". No forgiveness.
> 
> This is it.  Make it count.  Roll in the pain like a dog on a dead bird.  Pull on that bass like it's the last one you'll ever get--and grin, not as if it pales in comparison to some 'Heaven bass'.



As a Christian, I too realize that every day is precious. I'm going to live as there are no re-dos. I believe God has granted me freedom. I'm going to use my freedom to enjoy life, help others, and forgive others. I take responsibility for my own actions. I can be influenced by the Holy Spirit, Satan, or you. The final choice of most decisions is mine. I don't have total control of every event. God can intervene. So can Fate, Determinism, brain chemicals, random-ism, stuff just happening, evil, goodness, cancer, preventative medicine, environmental hazards, bluegrass music, and canoeing. SUFFERING can enter into life at any given point. It doesn't even matter how or why, it just does. When it does, live sucks. Over time it gets better.
Since I believe in freewill, I use the advice of the Serenity Prayer as my guide to daily living:


        God, give me grace to accept with serenity
        the things that cannot be changed,
        Courage to change the things
        which should be changed,
        and the Wisdom to distinguish
        the one from the other.

        Living one day at a time,
        Enjoying one moment at a time,
        Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace,
        Taking, as Jesus did,
        This sinful world as it is,
        Not as I would have it,
        Trusting that You will make all things right,
        If I surrender to Your will,
        So that I may be reasonably happy in this life,
        And supremely happy with You forever in the next.

        Amen.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 8, 2013)

atlashunter said:


> Except for Elijah. Always has to be an exception to the rule doesn't there?



Swing low sweet chariot, comin' for to carry me home.

Many bible scholars believe elijah will be one of the witnesses in revelations.

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=2-Witnesses-in-Revelation


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## mtnwoman (Jan 8, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> There's still some good nutrition in there.



Yuck....lol....guess that's why they eat cat poop too...double yuck. Nasty varments.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 11, 2013)

atlashunter said:


> Wanted to share this too. Hitchens thoughts on suffering and dying while he endured cancer. Maybe it will add something of value to the conversation.




Well, I listened to the whole thing. I don't think it adds to the conversation at all. I don't really have any opinion about this poor man's suffering except for sympathy. Was he suppposed to be brilliant or something?

He seemed pretty average to me. I am sorry for his suffering.


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