# Dog hunt impact



## fiddlinduke (Sep 23, 2020)

After hunting Chattahoochee last weekend and seeing little sign and the results from others who havent seen much sign or bears.
Last years dog hunt took 61 bears off Chattahoochee and Chestatee. Do yall think this practice has declined the bear population too much for the rest of us?
I realize there are still bears there but 61 is a lot to take in one season and they are doing the dog hunt again this year. 
Nothing against the dog hunters cause they are legally hunting but when the DNR allows 12 quota tags and each tag owner can bring 9 friends that is a lot of impact on the area.


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## Fork Horn (Sep 23, 2020)

I think the bears are still there aplenty.  Wish they’d do bear hunts with dogs on more mountain WMAs.  It’ll be interesting how many bears are killed throughout the entire season this year on those areas.


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## StikEm (Sep 23, 2020)

I hear what you're saying, and after the past 2 weekends with nothing, I have wondered the same, will it be the same kind of numbers this year with the dogs?!? How's that gonna look next season with over 120 bears taken out? I still think there is plenty left, but I do wonder if this is affecting what's happening so far this season? To my knowledge nobody on here or that I know personally has taken a bear yet, correct me if Im wrong? In the meantime we'll keep pushing and hope for good results!!


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## Rabun (Sep 23, 2020)

Curious how many bears and deer were checked out as well. I would think 61 bears killed would have a profound impact on the population on those wma's. But I'm sure there will be some back filling of those vacancies from surrounding area bears. Should be interesting to see how the doggers do this year.


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## tree cutter 08 (Sep 23, 2020)

Na I don't think its affected a thing. I aint been on hooch any and its same everywhere.  Lots of acorns= low movement.


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## chrislibby88 (Sep 23, 2020)

Rabun said:


> Curious how many bears and deer were checked out as well. I would think 61 bears killed would have a profound impact on the population on those wma's. But I'm sure there will be some back filling of those vacancies from surrounding area bears. Should be interesting to see how the doggers do this year.


It isn’t just 61 bears they took. I think I heard around 40 were sows. When those dogs started chasing that sow is leaving her cub(s). There’s no way the doggers didn’t take some sows that left Cubs, so those cubs died too. Makes me nervous that several years of this will tank the population in this area, and it could take 20 years to recover. Kinda wish they made the dog hunt boars only, or made it a one day only hunt or something. DNR wants their numbers down, but I kinda like having abundant numbers of them. You can’t hunt them or see them like this in mid or south GA.


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## GAbullHunter (Sep 23, 2020)

Hunted from Friday to Tuesday camping whole time 4 of us. We all hunted spread out and pushed many miles and terrain over these days. No, signs that were new. Acorns galore food plots plenty, but no fresh signs nor concentrated. Every hunter I've spoken to has had same thing. I've spoke with local hunters and ones that traveled up to hunt. Each have seen the same things. Even had run in with the game management they said they are still there. But couldn't tell where except for a sow with cubs shows up at which was no good. Even so the area they are supposed to frequent had no signs since before the rain. So, it's just going be a luck of the trial. Will be waiting on the results from the dog hunt next week to see what they turned out.


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## GAbullHunter (Sep 23, 2020)

So for last years report on the dog hunt you can find it on this link.
Gon.com/hunting/high-hunter-success-north-georgia-bear-dog-hunts

61 bears, 49 of them sows and 12 males. At that same time only 12 of the 61 bear were taken off Chestatee, the other 49 were off the Hooch.

Do the math, at 2 cubs average per sow that was taken could have been that many more cubs for the future years. 

At that same rate.. let's say that was 61 less fawns killed by bear and that many more fawns born this year.. if you want to see it that way..

But just the same I had to go sit in town for a bit to turn in some paper work via internet and while sitting in helen at the big park. There were 6 bucks just eating grass in the yard right up the street. 

So deer are in the city bear are in the city. To bad can't hunt the city haha.


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## splatek (Sep 23, 2020)

My uninformed and totally newb thoughts are that while 61 bears with a 80% sow rate harvest seems high (independent of whether those sows had cubs), I will tell you this: I have seen a ton of bears, in person and on camera during Spring and Summer scouting. If I had not put out cams and scouted Spring/Summer I might be in the same boat thinking that there were no more bears left on those WMAs, because lord knows they are hard to find this Fall. But my eyes have told me otherwise. I mean camping through Spring/Summer on Hooch, you couldn't get on a food plot without bumping or seeing a bear, usually several. My 9 year old and I walked up one trail like we were in a noise making contest and bumped one up a tree and saw 3 more in the field. So, given what I've read on this forum, and researched elsewhere: the bears are around, but the hard mast crop is being strange (as usual?) and driving them elsewhere. Someone once told me that this time of season, bears are slaves to their stomachs and I think what's happening is there are a ton of acorns dropping, mostly reds and chestnuts is what I am seeing, and there are probably some stands of corn in fields, and corn feeders all over the valley. I think those doggers killed a bunch of bears, but with so much surrounding National Forest covered up in bears, killing those old bears probably just left a prime habitat opening for some new bears to pop in and take up residence. 
Again, this is a very uninformed hypothesis, but biologically, I think it would make sense. 
Now, if every year the ratio of sows to boars stays in the 80% rate, that might could have a big impact on the population just running some simple population dynamics models. But, I think it would have to be several seasons at that high rate to make a long-term impact.


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## CornStalker (Sep 23, 2020)

I think there are a lot of valid points and considerations folks are making. Ever since hearing about the number of sows that were taken last year, I have been marginally concerned. But, like others have suggested, one season probably won’t drastically change the population dynamics. Now, if this happens over the course of several years, it would be a different story. There’s no way that it couldn’t affect the population. 
I will say though, this is been the first year that I’ve hunted in almost 10 years where I haven’t seen much sign—including old sign. I have hunted in bumper crop years, where the bears weren’t moving, and was still able to see some. So it’s a little concerning. I’m interested to see how the dog hunters do. Also, how is it possible that no one has killed a bear yet???? Someone...anyone? Please post a picture for all our sakes....


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## Buckman18 (Sep 23, 2020)

tree cutter 08 said:


> Na I don't think its affected a thing. I aint been on hooch any and its same everywhere.  Lots of acorns= low movement.



This. 

In August, before acorns, I was seeing between 3-10 bears every single time out on the NF, Cooper Creek, Chestatee, and Chattahoochee. As soon as the bears turned to acorns, they disappeared. I'm 40 years old, and have hunted in bear country for 31 years. When the acorn crop is bountiful, bears are tough to see.

I can remember years on wma's where there were over 25 bears killed by still hunters without the aid of dogs and the impact was negligible. 

Folks also don't realize how large a bears range is. Some of these collared bears have ended up in North Carolina. Even if every single bear that is currently on the wma is killed, there will be more to fill the void, and it won't take long, imo. YMMV.


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## fiddlinduke (Sep 23, 2020)

I'm curious to see the harvest reports after this years dog hunt. 

Great responses y'all. This is a great forum. I enjoy the expertise of the members here. thanks for the info. Keep it coming!!!


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## ChidJ (Sep 23, 2020)

I don't have any experience to back up my opinion but IIRC they said the Georgia bear population is something like 5000 with the vast majority living in the northern zone. Additionally, IIRC something like 400 bears were reported taken last year. 61 ain't too big of a chunk of 400 and I think the total harvest percentages were closer to 50/50 male/female. I don't know what that means for the future or what may or may not be causing sign to appear/disappear but the data tells me that dog hunters can't be solely responsible for suspected bear population decline.


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## tree cutter 08 (Sep 23, 2020)

Dog hunt should be good this year. Got good cold weather instead of the 90 degree Temps we had last year. I like bear hunting as good as anybody but if I aint seeing 4 or 5 a day im not real interested.  Ill kill one later on in my travels if I see one but I'm gona focus on deer unless I find some hot sign. On good sign you should see or kill him on the first sit. This year isn't shaping up to be one of those years. Just how it is sometimes.


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## Buckman18 (Sep 23, 2020)

My prediction is about half the bears will be killed this year vs last. This is not because the population was hurt last year but rather I believe the population is more spread out into the settlement this year.


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## NCMTNHunter (Sep 23, 2020)

I don’t know that country at all but I would expect the harvest will be way down as well. Apart from a wide spread acorn crop there is just some thing that happens when a new area is opened to hunting (in this case dog hunting) for the first time.  That first year is always really good then it gets tougher after that. It’s kind of like picking all the low hanging fruit then next year the fruit is a little higher up the tree.


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## chrislibby88 (Sep 23, 2020)

GAbullHunter said:


> So for last years report on the dog hunt you can find it on this link.
> Gon.com/hunting/high-hunter-success-north-georgia-bear-dog-hunts
> 
> 61 bears, 49 of them sows and 12 males. At that same time only 12 of the 61 bear were taken off Chestatee, the other 49 were off the Hooch.
> ...


Man I hate to break it to you, but those bears aren’t eating that many fawns. I have no doubt that they get them when they can, but bears aren’t the reason the mountain deer population sucks. The mountains need a coyote program, they are way more capable of grabbing a fawn than large bear. They also need some good hot burns or select cuts, or even clear cuts. 
If the bear population between Chestatee and Chattahoochee tanks all we will have is large chunk of forest with few bears and still few deer and the hunting will suck. I see a lot of deer up there, and a bear here and there. I know the deer numbers aren’t what they were in the 80s and 90s but the lower density produces some old bucks. If someone wants to shoot a bunch of spikes they drive an hour or two south and hunt higher numbers.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (Sep 23, 2020)

Coyotes are the biggest problem for deer but people keep refusing to believe it. Theyre also totally uncontrollable in the CNF.  If you think otherwise, please look into the history of America’s war on predators in the American West. What they accomplished was the total extirpation of wolves, and the near collapse in populations of grizzly and cougar, meanwhile expanding both the range and density of coyotes.  

What we would truly see if each and every single bear was removed is compensatory mortality on fawns by the coyotes. The same number would be killed in the end. And those hills would only be for pig hunters. 

Btw- my little group of hunters saw 2 coyotes opening weekend. I average seeing one every four sits while bear hunting my four county area is getting pics of yotes nearly daily on all of my cams.


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## GAbullHunter (Sep 23, 2020)

chrislibby88 said:


> Man I hate to break it to you, but those bears aren’t eating that many fawns. I have no doubt that they get them when they can, but bears aren’t the reason the mountain deer population sucks. The mountains need a coyote program, they are way more capable of grabbing a fawn than large bear. They also need some good hot burns or select cuts, or even clear cuts.
> If the bear population between Chestatee and Chattahoochee tanks all we will have is large chunk of forest with few bears and still few deer and the hunting will suck. I see a lot of deer up there, and a bear here and there. I know the deer numbers aren’t what they were in the 80s and 90s but the lower density produces some old bucks. If someone wants to shoot a bunch of spikes they drive an hour or two south and hunt higher numbers.



That's not what I ment, I was saying that was a possible increase in fawns if you used just the bear, as the reason for the numbers. I know that yotes, hogs an humans play a huge role in this Very much..
It was just a basic math toss
Such as the possibility that each sow could produce 2 cubs.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (Sep 23, 2020)

The bears that make it through this fall are going to have a great crop of cubs because of the red oak crop and we should all be happy to see it.


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## CornStalker (Sep 23, 2020)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> Coyotes are the biggest problem for deer but people keep refusing to believe it. Theyre also totally uncontrollable in the CNF.  If you think otherwise, please look into the history of America’s war on predators in the American West. What they accomplished was the total extirpation of wolves, and the near collapse in populations of grizzly and cougar, meanwhile expanding both the range and density of coyotes.
> 
> What we would truly see if each and every single bear was removed is compensatory mortality on fawns by the coyotes. The same number would be killed in the end. And those hills would only be for pig hunters.
> 
> Btw- my little group of hunters saw 2 coyotes opening weekend. I average seeing one every four sits while bear hunting my four county area is getting pics of yotes nearly daily on all of my cams.



The only problem with this theory is that coyote populations have grown exponentially all across the East for the past thirty years. And yet we have more deer on the Landscape than we ever have before—-just not in the mountain regions where logging And control burns hasn’t been a priority. No doubt coyotes take plenty of fawns—-just like bears—but if I had to make list of most important factors, I would start with the habitat first. That said...I would love to come do some coyote trapping up there!


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## The mtn man (Sep 24, 2020)

Some if this is nonsense. Chatahoochee wma is only about 20k acres where the dog hunt took place. Thats like just a dot on the map as far as north ga mtns go. Bears move around from area to area, county to county, state to state, they dont know they are suppose to either stay in the wma or off the wma. Just a few miles away across the state line bear dog hunting is open everywhere and there are plenty of bears with maybe thousands of hunters with dogs hunting it almost 3 months out of the year. Dog hunting isnt as easy and successfull as some might think. The thing about chatahoochee and surounding areas is it has been over populated with bears. Thats why it was so succesfull last year. With good weather hopefully they will knock them back a little more this year.


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## Thunder Head (Sep 24, 2020)

Now i was only at 1500' or so.
I felt like i needed a hard hat yesterday afternoon. The chesrnut oaks were raining down. A few reds on the ground and some small whites. Saw a doe / fawn feeding on acorns. They were in between a white and chest. She was probably eating both.

The results of the dog hunt this year will tell us more. Its hard to make any predictions off one year.

I dont pass coyotes period.
I killed one with my bow one time. A little later a group of does show up. When they smelled him they bounced off a few yards. The lead doe comes back stomping and doing the circles with her head. Ultimately she got within 2-3 yards of him. It was hard not to laugh. Talking about walking on egg shells. She turned back and retreated to her clan. They eased of to the field they were headed to in the first place.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 24, 2020)

Dog hunters take anywhere from 100-150 bears every year in my county, and have since I was a kid. There are still plenty of bears.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 24, 2020)

My gripe with dog hunting isn't the numbers taken. It's the fact that dog hunting makes them nocturnal, and almost impossible to hunt in the daytime without dogs.


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## Joe Brandon (Sep 24, 2020)

I found a lot of fresh sign Monday but no bear. Found a ton of feeding sign as well. If I had another day or two perhaps I could have closed the deal. This scat is as fresh as it gets and that's just a couple of the five or so piles I found in one area . Just because I didnt kill a bear there yet this year dosent mean its because of the dog hunt a year ago.


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## chrislibby88 (Sep 25, 2020)

Joe Brandon said:


> I found a lot of fresh sign Monday but no bear. Found a ton of feeding sign as well. If I had another day or two perhaps I could have closed the deal. This scat is as fresh as it gets and that's just a couple of the five or so piles I found in one area . Just because I didnt kill a bear there yet this year dosent mean its because of the dog hunt a year ago.


Oh there’s plenty of bears. I don’t think the dog hunt last year had any effect on the hunting this year, the oak and soft mass crop are what’s making it tough this year. I do have a small worry that if a ton of sows keep getting cleaned out that it could hurt the abundance of bears in years to come for the Chestatee/Chat region, which is fine I guess, that’s obviously what the DNR and biologist want. More bears will come, and they won’t get them all but I do like having pockets of the state that are very dense with bears though considering they are VERY difficult to hunt in the rest of the state. Middle Ga has a ONE day season in Dec, for 3 counties on private land only and south Ga isn’t much better.


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## The mtn man (Sep 25, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> My gripe with dog hunting isn't the numbers taken. It's the fact that dog hunting makes them nocturnal, and almost impossible to hunt in the daytime without dogs.


This is unfortunatly a fact.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 25, 2020)

The mtn man said:


> This is unfortunatly a fact.


Yep. I see them all the time in the day here until bear season opens, then pretty much no more.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (Sep 25, 2020)

The mtn man said:


> Some if this is nonsense. Chatahoochee wma is only about 20k acres where the dog hunt took place. Thats like just a dot on the map as far as north ga mtns go. Bears move around from area to area, county to county, state to state, they dont know they are suppose to either stay in the wma or off the wma. Just a few miles away across the state line bear dog hunting is open everywhere and there are plenty of bears with maybe thousands of hunters with dogs hunting it almost 3 months out of the year. Dog hunting isnt as easy and successfull as some might think. The thing about chatahoochee and surounding areas is it has been over populated with bears. Thats why it was so succesfull last year. With good weather hopefully they will knock them back a little more this year.



From the guy who is from a NC dog hunting family who told us all that we do not want bear dogging in GA.  

And seeing the way NC ended up, I totally agree(d) with you.


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## delacroix (Sep 26, 2020)

tree cutter 08 said:


> Na I don't think its affected a thing. I aint been on hooch any and its same everywhere.  Lots of acorns= low movement.


I don't know much but it was quickly obvious to me that those bears can be wherever they want because there is food all over the place up there.


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## The mtn man (Sep 29, 2020)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> From the guy who is from a NC dog hunting family who told us all that we do not want bear dogging in GA.
> 
> And seeing the way NC ended up, I totally agree(d) with you.


Your right, there are good and bad things, we dont want the free for all that NC has. Its the best bear managment tool, but with that comes the 10% of dog hunters that ruin it fir everyone else. There is a very large group of them from a particular county in WNC that have done things that will blow your mind. Total disrespect for property owners and other game. I once watched them pack over a hundred hounds on a 100 pound bear. Now 90 of those probably got side tracked running other game like deer. If controlled and heavily restricted its a good thing, and a good oportunity.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 29, 2020)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> From the guy who is from a NC dog hunting family who told us all that we do not want bear dogging in GA.
> 
> And seeing the way NC ended up, I totally agree(d) with you.


I am also from a family with a long line of NC hound hunters, myself being very much one of them in my younger days. I loved it, and don't want to see it gone, but I would really like to see some part of the bear season that is dog-free. We can't hunt bear here during deer bow or muzzleloader season, or deer rifle season.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (Sep 29, 2020)

Probably the same types that took over the old burton wma once the state dropped it. I understand it was the wild west out there for a long time. 

I still see a good bit of illegal dogging going on in white, towns, union, and rabun but most hounders I talk to seem like real good guys. 

As has been said over and over, the NC situation is what I fear deeply. The heads of ga dnr tend to grease whatever wheel squeaks loudest irregardless of biology and hound guys are some super loud wheels.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 29, 2020)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> Probably the same types that took over the old burton wma once the state dropped it. I understand it was the wild west out there for a long time.
> 
> I still see a good bit of illegal dogging going on in white, towns, union, and rabun but most hounders I talk to seem like real good guys.
> 
> As has been said over and over, the NC situation is what I fear deeply. The heads of ga dnr tend to grease whatever wheel squeaks loudest irregardless of biology and hound guys are some super loud wheels.


The NCBHA here has a lock on bear season changes.


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## Doug B. (Sep 29, 2020)

CornStalker said:


> The only problem with this theory is that coyote populations have grown exponentially all across the East for the past thirty years. And yet we have more deer on the Landscape than we ever have before—-just not in the mountain regions where logging


I don't know what "mountain region" you are talking about, but here in the northeast Georgia mountains that is definitely not the case. There is nowhere near the amount of deer in the mountains of Georgia as there used to be in the 90's.


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## Doug B. (Sep 29, 2020)

Why would anybody worry about what happens on Chattahoochee WMA?  Like TMM said, that is a very small part of the Chattahoochee National Forest.   There are thousands of acres of land in the Chattahoochee National Forest that dogs can't be used to hunt bears.   There is no way that what the dog hunters killed in two years there can make an impact on the overall bear population.    I wish they would open dog hunting on all NF land.   The bear population needs to be controlled.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (Sep 29, 2020)

Deer in the mountains were shot out by hunters to a level where they cant deal with the predator base.  They certainly didnt get eaten by bears.  As for bears needing to be controlled, it is widely documented through multiple firsthand accounts that Davey Crockett once killed 13 bears before breakfast in the mountains of Tennessee.  Seems our hills are supposed to have a lot of these wonderful creatures.


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## tree cutter 08 (Sep 29, 2020)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> Deer in the mountains were shot out by hunters to a level where they cant deal with the predator base.  They certainly didnt get eaten by bears.  As for bears needing to be controlled, it is widely documented through multiple firsthand accounts that Davey Crockett once killed 13 bears before breakfast in the mountains of Tennessee.  Seems our hills are supposed to have a lot of these wonderful creatures.


You are right about the deer being shot out by hunters because dnr allowed it and no bears did not kill them. What they are killing is the fawns so there's no way the deer will ever recover. Yotes are equally to blame. If dnr would restock in areas I think we could have a better balance. They will pay to truck bears around all summer but won't entertain the idea of moving a single  deer. So, my thoughts, kill more bears because they are easier to control than yotes.


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## Joe Brandon (Sep 29, 2020)

tree cutter 08 said:


> You are right about the deer being shot out by hunters because dnr allowed it and no bears did not kill them. What they are killing is the fawns so there's no way the deer will ever recover. Yotes are equally to blame. If dnr would restock in areas I think we could have a better balance. They will pay to truck bears around all summer but won't entertain the idea of moving a single  deer. So, my thoughts, kill more bears because they are easier to control than yotes.


And I can only assume they taste better than yotes!


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## Buckman18 (Sep 29, 2020)

I disagree with the notion that the deer population deep in the mountains has been over-harvested by hunters.

Our mountains have 1000's and 1000's of acres, many square miles, that NEVER see a deer hunter and hasn't in a very very long time. Over the past 40 years, old access roads have been closed, gated, dirt mounded. We've had many 1000's of acres designated as Wilderness spread out all over the region- access by foot or horse only. The amount of deer hunting pressure in mountains that is not easily accessible via the settlement in lower elevations or food plots on WMA's is extremely light, and non existent in large part. There are simply not many of us left who'll walk miles and hours to hunt a handful of deer.

Area's in the mountains that have had the highest bear densities for the past few decades generally have the fewest deer by far. Chestatee, Swallow Creek, Tray Mtn, Lake Burton, and Chattahoochee are great examples. There are area's that had good deer hunting in the 90's but have since experienced reduced numbers while, at the same time, experienced an increase in bears. Blue Ridge and Cooper Creek are good examples of these. Even though they are fewer, there are some areas that, for whatever reason, dont have the high bear density, and they still have good deer. Warwoman and the upper tracts of Dawson Forest come to mind.

The problem with the mountain deer population is FAWN RECRUITMENT. Fawn recruitment is suffering because of bears and yotes. The study on Blue Ridge WMA is shedding some science on this. Yes, there are also improvement opportunities for habitat.

In my opinion, the idea behind the dog hunt is good. Hopefully it'll bring the kind of balance most of us mountain hunters desire. Hopefully it'll expand to some other areas and a rotating cycle will eventually develop. That said, the timing of the hunt is terrible. It totally screws the bow hunters, and the timing should be adjusted. Also, hopefully the politics don't morph into what North Carolina has, this is my major concern. YMMV.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (Sep 29, 2020)

Very good post Buckman.  Im of the somewhat educated opinion that because coyotes are totally unmanageable, that the reduction in bears will mean absolutely nothing for deer numbers but wildlife biology is not an exact science and often plays by its’ own very regional rules.  Im glad to see John Bowers removed from serious decisions (for a lot of reasons) but I hope it was because of the ridiculous planning of this dog hunt.


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## CornStalker (Sep 30, 2020)

Doug B. said:


> I don't know what "mountain region" you are talking about, but here in the northeast Georgia mountains that is definitely not the case. There is nowhere near the amount of deer in the mountains of Georgia as there used to be in the 90's.


 If you go back and read my post again, you’ll notice that i was saying that the mountain regions don’t have high deer populations anymore. I think you misread my post...


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## Doug B. (Sep 30, 2020)

CornStalker said:


> If you go back and read my post again, you’ll notice that i was saying that the mountain regions don’t have high deer populations anymore. I think you misread my post...


Gotcha.  Sorry man.   The way it was worded was a little confusing.   Especially for my simple mind.  I do agree with you........now. ?


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (Sep 30, 2020)

Plenty of deer down in the valleys still. Thanks to corn pouring, it sounds like the 4th of july most mornings and evenings in the valley below my place.


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