# Disappointed in church cancellations



## LittleDrummerBoy

The Book says, "Do not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing."

Lots of counties in GA without a single case of COVID-19.

The Holy Spirit knew there would be diseases and plagues.

Sure, some steps of care are reasonable.  I don't mind encouraging those sick with contagious diseases to stay home.  Perhaps maintaining some "social distancing" practices in the meetings.

But this thing is likely to last a while, and the enemies of God are always looking for ways to get the saints to forsake their assembling together.

Mid-week, a number of churches were sending out encouragements for "faith over fear."  But come Sunday, they had cancelled.


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## NE GA Pappy

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> The Book says, "Do not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing."
> 
> Lots of counties in GA without a single case of COVID-19.
> 
> The Holy Spirit knew there would be diseases and plagues.
> 
> Sure, some steps of care are reasonable.  I don't mind encouraging those sick with contagious diseases to stay home.  Perhaps maintaining some "social distancing" practices in the meetings.
> 
> But this thing is likely to last a while, and the enemies of God are always looking for ways to get the saints to forsake their assembling together.
> 
> Mid-week, a number of churches were sending out encouragements for "faith over fear."  But come Sunday, they had cancelled.



one of the biggest in your area was one of the first to bail.   I don't understand it myself.  If you have a  weak or compromised health situation, stay home.  That doesn't mean that everyone needs to stay home.  

To me this is just another sign that we may not believe what we say we believe.


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## 4HAND

We had service this morning. We're having our evening service too.


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## NE GA Pappy

4HAND said:


> We had service this morning. We're having our evening service too.


 us too.

I stayed home with grandbabies that are getting over the flu ( thank you Jesus that the adults have dodged it) because don't nobody need that.  We did participate over the internet though.  We will be attending Wednesday night.


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## 4HAND

Our Pastor said we will continue having our regular services until/unless our Governor bans gatherings at the level of our monthly average attendance.


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## SemperFiDawg

So much for belief in Christ removing the sting of death.  During the first couple of centuries Christians stayed and cared for the sick and dying during the plagues that hit the Roman Empire  They did it out of love and the confidence that death to them would mean a better place.  Death to todays Christians means no more TV, eating out or going to their kids sporting events.  Yeah, I would say something was lost along the way.


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## LittleDrummerBoy

NE GA Pappy said:


> one of the biggest in your area was one of the first to bail.   I don't understand it myself.  If you have a  weak or compromised health situation, stay home.  That doesn't mean that everyone needs to stay home.
> 
> To me this is just another sign that we may not believe what we say we believe.



I tend to agree that while the week or health compromised need to stay home, wholesale church closures are not called for, especially in counties with no reported cases of COVID-19.  And while I don't mind a situational church cancellation here or there, I think the church will become much less effective if this lasts very long - especially if organizations stop meeting in person.

One church we attend, Free Chapel, moved their big Sunday meetings online, but small groups were still meeting over the weekend.  Pastor Jentzen gave an excellent message that reached over 200,000 people, which is many more that can fit into our main campus in Gainesville.   Another fellowship we attend occasionally, First Century Ministries, held their normal service in person.








4HAND said:


> Our Pastor said we will continue having our regular services until/unless our Governor bans gatherings at the level of our monthly average attendance.



The government does not have the authority to cancel meetings of the church, as this would violate the 1st Amendment protections of freedom of assembly and freedom of religion.  Why is it that so many people who accept "separation of church and state" think that government can cancel church meetings?  The mayor of Atlanta has already moved to ban church meetings over a certain size.  We must obey God rather than men.

Allowing government to cancel meetings of the church sets a very dangerous precedent.  There may be specific locations where the reasons seem justified in the present purported "crisis" but if all "justification" requires is government scientists saying "we need to do this" then future governments will be able to find those scientists.

Decisions of the church may be informed by government and/or scientists.  But both the Bible and the Constitution require that decision making belongs to the church, and the church should remain autonomous from government decrees forcing cancellations and closures.

Giving the government authority to determine how and where churches meet is not working out well for Christians in China.


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## 4HAND

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I tend to agree that while the week or health compromised need to stay home, wholesale church closures are not called for, especially in counties with no reported cases of COVID-19.  And while I don't mind a situational church cancellation here or there, I think the church will become much less effective if this lasts very long - especially if organizations stop meeting in person.
> 
> One church we attend, Free Chapel, moved their big Sunday meetings online, but small groups were still meeting over the weekend.  Pastor Jentzen gave an excellent message that reached over 200,000 people, which is many more that can fit into our main campus in Gainesville.   Another fellowship we attend occasionally, First Century Ministries, held their normal service in person.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The government does not have the authority to cancel meetings of the church, as this would violate the 1st Amendment protections of freedom of assembly and freedom of religion.  Why is it that so many people who accept "separation of church and state" think that government can cancel church meetings?  The mayor of Atlanta has already moved to ban church meetings over a certain size.  We must obey God rather than men.
> 
> Allowing government to cancel meetings of the church sets a very dangerous precedent.  There may be specific locations where the reasons seem justified in the present purported "crisis" but if all "justification" requires is government scientists saying "we need to do this" then future governments will be able to find those scientists.
> 
> Decisions of the church may be informed by government and/or scientists.  But both the Bible and the Constitution require that decision making belongs to the church, and the church should remain autonomous from government decrees forcing cancellations and closures.
> 
> Giving the government authority to determine how and where churches meet is not working out well for Christians in China.


So your church already cancelled their services & yet you're questioning my Pastor's decision to continue until/unless the Governor bans gatherings of people over a certain amount?

My Pastor said we will follow the law unless it conflicts with our beliefs. Seems reasonable to me.


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## NE GA Pappy

4HAND said:


> So your church already cancelled their services & yet you're questioning my Pastor's decision to continue until/unless the Governor bans gatherings of people over a certain amount?
> 
> My Pastor said we will follow the law unless it conflicts with our beliefs. Seems reasonable to me.



UH... Yeah. 

I don't get it.  Does this make sense???

1. disappointed in church closings

2. reached over 200,000 by closing church

3.  gooberment can't make us close, so nah nah nah nah nah


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## SemperFiDawg

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Giving the government authority to determine how and where churches meet is not working out well for Christians in China.



I'm pretty sure nobody "gave" the Chinese government the authority to determine how and where churches meet.  You may want to look into that.

As for the rest of your post, it's just contradictory political blather.


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## SemperFiDawg

NE GA Pappy said:


> UH... Yeah.
> 
> I don't get it.  Does this make sense???
> 
> 1. disappointed in church closings
> 
> 2. reached over 200,000 by closing church
> 
> 3.  gooberment can't make us close, so nah nah nah nah nah



It makes sense if one is wanting to flash their beliefisms, church size, church activity, etc.  Yeah, there's a trend there of spiritual 'virtue signaling'.....and has been for a while.  Just look at the history.


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## Throwback

So when folks at your church get this and spread it because they came to church what you gonna say?? “sorry”??
It’s not like you don’t know


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## Israel

All things are working for the revelation of the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ.
To whatever end God is patiently working to deliver us from distractions we may find the grace to recognize and confess.

Things big in the world's eye were never to be our portion, whether they are described or appearing as "good" or "bad". There has been and remains a church, a remnant not concerned with the world's favor nor scorn.

It is not as though the Lord has left us comfortless nor alone, as orphans at the whim of a cold machine. Nor that He is wearied in reminding us, as often and as much as necessary "do not fear what they fear". This is His good pleasure...to provide His children's bread. As ever only He has. Even to the telling us of that which we have been made able to ask. Even to instructing us, as now able, what to ask for.

Any numbness of which we may have not even been aware...first to the Lord and then to one another is disclosed to us most plainly by any longing that things (to our sensibilities) "return to normal." May the Lord show His continuing graciousness that we be able to bear reproof.

For the very best of the world's normal is "we may be able to help you stay comfortable till you die...and the cost is only the soul. We may keep you distracted...even stuporous."

And God knows where I have, and continue to need a sharp awakening of light into a dim eye. If we have enough strength to complain...we may yet have "too much" strength...till reduced plainly, and in our own sight...to only plea. How much is ready to be shown as ours...if we but ask.

I am either a man like you, or not. God knows. If I make any claim to be like you, how easily is offense made. For I so barely at any time "want to be like me"...how terrible to hang that upon another!

Yet, if I claim to be unlike or unique...even how much more so!

But I will tell you of a man who has "asked". I make no claim his asking is anything, or even at all sufficient. But he has, for better or worse asked, asked when falling, asked when tripping, asked when stumbling, asked when shame came knocking and looking for a home...asked as he felt the earth opening beneath him in loss..."Lord, is there escape from being the man who never knows what he has till it seems lost, the man who takes all for granted...till it is taken...and only then...he begins to see its truer value...and also the shame of blindness in his _now very clear_ lack of appreciation?"

As Joni Mitchell asked  "Don't it _always_ seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone...?"


Lord...must it be..._always_?

Oh, how the Lord desires with such burning desire to give what cannot be taken for granted. It is excluded by its nature...it has no place provided for in it...for the taking for granted. And by that very nature itself...throws the light of life...even upon those things...which once seemed able to be "taken for granted". Things need not be lost to be appreciated...too late. By the gaining of that one thing...even the all things are shown...as gain.

"Count your blessings" sounds so very platitudinous. But it is only made so by what would have us count something else. Lest we come to see who is our blessing One.

We can have, and be among those to whom more is given. We can, I am told...even grow in gratitude. Not needing loss as teacher.

or...


And  a man needs reminding.











Nevertheless, we cannot escape being taught.


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## Israel

If the above at all smells of my own self righteousness. 

It is not that we "do wrong" when things of this temporal age become large in our sight, (God knows how _shaking things _make themselves plain...by their shakiness) we shall simply never be satisfied...we have a life that must push through, and occasion, occasions are provided.


















Has it ever been else...than this?


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## LittleDrummerBoy

My point is we ought not rest in our work of making disciples, and we certainly ought to obey God rather than men.

The governor of Louisiana has cancelled all church meetings over 250 people until April 13, saying "get ready for the new normal" and that the cancellations may need to be extended.  It would not surprise me if the number of attendees government allows is reduced to 50 or even to 10.  So far, very few have questioned governmental power to dictate church meetings.  It is shocking how many purported Christians are so quick to submit to unBiblical orders from the government.  COVID-19 has not even been found in 52 of 62 Louisiana Parishes, and many churches ordered closed are hundreds of miles away from any known COVID-19 cases.

It is important to note the key difference between a voluntary closure and an ordered one.  With voluntary closures, the church itself decides when it may resume normal operations.  With government orders, one is waiting for government to give the OK to open again for public services.  They may have a very different idea of "how long" is long enough.

The internet is a great communication resource that can be valuable in carrying out the great commission.  But as the main delivery service, it is subject to censorship.  No major Internet Service Provider claims to maintain "free speech."  Offensive content can and will be censored.  YouTube and FaceBook have already implemented new procedures for identifying and censoring content.  The move online subjects content to those censors.  Over a longer period, tailoring content to avoid those censors brings increasingly greater compromise to "whole counsel of God" and teaching "everything" Christ commanded.

It also shocks the conscience how many Christians in government and law enforcement support these forced closures and believe Christians should submit, forgetting both their oaths to support and defend the Constitution as well as the Apostles' instruction that "we must obey God rather than men."  Sure, the real church will continue underground.  But many who reckoned themselves Christians may become persecutors of the church by forcing closures.  To my knowledge, not a single Christian who is a law enforcement agent has said they would resist "doing what I'm told" regarding enforcement of church closures.  Every one who does it is a Judas.


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## Israel

> But many who reckoned themselves Christians may become persecutors of the church by forcing closures. To my knowledge, not a single Christian who is a law enforcement agent has said they would resist "doing what I'm told" regarding enforcement of church closures. Every one who does it is a Judas.



Leave a little room for a Saul. To become a Paul.

Even a Hebrew of Hebrews may discover something of being a Jew that was once hidden from his sight in his presumption of "but I am already one" LOL...and a quite good one at that!

Poems are made by fools that's true

But only God can make a Jew.

(BTW, if we do not yet recognize what Judas "looks like" in a very intimate way, we will need those "external" representations)


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## The Original Rooster

I can find a lot of verses in the Bible saying obey government authority but only a few saying resist government authority.


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## 4HAND

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> My point is we ought not rest in our work of making disciples, and we certainly ought to obey God rather than men.
> 
> The governor of Louisiana has cancelled all church meetings over 250 people until April 13, saying "get ready for the new normal" and that the cancellations may need to be extended.  It would not surprise me if the number of attendees government allows is reduced to 50 or even to 10.  So far, very few have questioned governmental power to dictate church meetings.  It is shocking how many purported Christians are so quick to submit to unBiblical orders from the government.  COVID-19 has not even been found in 52 of 62 Louisiana Parishes, and many churches ordered closed are hundreds of miles away from any known COVID-19 cases.
> 
> It is important to note the key difference between a voluntary closure and an ordered one.  With voluntary closures, the church itself decides when it may resume normal operations.  With government orders, one is waiting for government to give the OK to open again for public services.  They may have a very different idea of "how long" is long enough.
> 
> The internet is a great communication resource that can be valuable in carrying out the great commission.  But as the main delivery service, it is subject to censorship.  No major Internet Service Provider claims to maintain "free speech."  Offensive content can and will be censored.  YouTube and FaceBook have already implemented new procedures for identifying and censoring content.  The move online subjects content to those censors.  Over a longer period, tailoring content to avoid those censors brings increasingly greater compromise to "whole counsel of God" and teaching "everything" Christ commanded.
> 
> It also shocks the conscience how many Christians in government and law enforcement support these forced closures and believe Christians should submit, forgetting both their oaths to support and defend the Constitution as well as the Apostles' instruction that "we must obey God rather than men."  Sure, the real church will continue underground.  But many who reckoned themselves Christians may become persecutors of the church by forcing closures.  To my knowledge, not a single Christian who is a law enforcement agent has said they would resist "doing what I'm told" regarding enforcement of church closures.  Every one who does it is a Judas.


I'm certainly glad you're not my judge.


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## LittleDrummerBoy

4HAND said:


> I'm certainly glad you're not my judge.



So you would enforce the governor's orders to close down churches?

May I recommend you consult a good 1st Amendment attorney before doing that.  "Just following orders" is no excuse for violating the 1st Amendment, and officers can be held individually accountable for following illegal orders.


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## BeerThirty

Here's what my church sent out. I respect it:

"After careful consideration, discussion, and prayer, our Elder and Lead Team have decided to follow the recommendations of our governing officials and suspend all activities through March 20. While God does not give us a spirit of fear, He does call us to love our neighbors. We believe we are demonstrating love when we do everything we can to protect those around us.


At this time, the following will be in effect *March 14-20*. We will make decisions regarding future activities on a week-by-week basis."

I will comment that, I believe the decision is easier for our church since we stream it live every Sunday, so many folks can still can participate in service.


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## Israel

There simply is no worldly authority empowered to resist the manifestation of Jesus Christ. How that is determined to be demonstrated by God through any given disciple, by either _apparent _submission or resistance is ministered by the Spirit to each.

Learn the lesson of the disciples _gladly _bearing beatings for the Lord's sake (what the world ministers) yet refusing_ to obey_, not by rebellion, but in submission to God to continue to speak in _that Name._

There is a learning to approve the world's hatred of the name of Christ in any bearing of contradiction against it. There are lessons of reception (to Whom and where) when it is made plain whence we are rejected.

We are not saved by what may sometime appear our Lord's rebellion to the world's authority...but by His submission to our Father's.

Yet in exercise...only the one of the spirit can observe in patience and reserve judgment...knowing only God can make clear.

Jesus still holds much appeal for the rebel. Till He is made plain there is no rebellion in Him. And then even rebels might suffer a change...

God has allowed for the world to be a help to send us on our way...knowing that it is not us the world needs or has ever needed...and by such submission to their right of sending...make plain the testimony of the only One needed.


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## 4HAND

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> So you would enforce the governor's orders to close down churches?


You basically called me a Judas because I'm LEO & agree with my Pastor's decision to abide by restricting (postponing) services if mandated by Gov. due to a health crisis. 
This is totally different than Gov restricting beliefs or what can be preached/taught.
TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

If it was an attempt by government to restrict churches free speech, I would stand with every church in my community against it.

BTW, we had live services last Sunday in our sanctuary.
Did your church?


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## LittleDrummerBoy

RoosterTodd said:


> I can find a lot of verses in the Bible saying obey government authority but only a few saying resist government authority.



Absolutely, obey government authority within its proper sphere.  I received an email from my 1st Amendment attorney with lots of specific guidance.  Overreaching executive branch "orders" do not need to be obeyed unless they get a court order backing them up for each specific case. So churches can keep meeting until the government gets a court order telling a specific church to stop. Likewise, police are unlikely to enforce "house arrest" orders against those without COVID-19 until there is a specific court order pertaining to a specific address. In other words, they need to go to court before enforcing orders against a church or individual. The church or individual need not go to court before resisting.

My 1st Amendment attorney has assured me that restrictions on Constitutional rights like freedom of assembly must be "narrowly tailored" and will face "a very high standard of strict scrutiny" before court orders are issued allowing enforcement. This means the government's interest would have to be compelling and exercised in the least intrusive manner possible. Cancelling church meetings over 100 miles from the nearest COVID-19 case or quarantining homes without known exposure to the virus is not "the least intrusive manner possible."




Israel said:


> There simply is no worldly authority empowered to resist the manifestation of Jesus Christ. How that is determined to be demonstrated by God through any given disciple, by either _apparent _submission or resistance is ministered by the Spirit to each.



Interesting.  My brother posted a different scene from the same movie when he learned of my offer to rescue a Christian brother being held in confinement against his will even though neither he nor anyone at the address had contracted or had contact with anyone with COVID-19.  Just US citizen minding his own business at home. 

For me, the guiding principle is the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do to you."  I'd rather healthy folks live their lives and attend their church than cower in fear in their homes.  Sure, paint the doorposts with the blood of the Lamb and stay inside when the destroyer comes to your town.  But not when it is far off.

It is the sluggard that says, "There is a lion outside.  I will be murdered in the streets." (Proverbs 22:13)  Do we lock down schools when there is an active shooter in the next county?

If my loved ones were held captive against their will, I would want someone to come to their rescue.  I would despise the injustice of holding them.  How can I not do the same for others?


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## The Original Rooster

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Absolutely, obey government authority within its proper sphere.  I received an email from my 1st Amendment attorney with lots of specific guidance.  Overreaching executive branch "orders" do not need to be obeyed unless they get a court order backing them up for each specific case. So churches can keep meeting until the government gets a court order telling a specific to stop. Likewise, police are unlikely to enforce "house arrest" orders against those without COVID-19 until there is a specific court order pertaining to a specific address. In other words, they need to go to court before enforcing orders against a church or individual. The church or individual need not go to court before resisting.
> 
> My 1st Amendment attorney has assured me that restrictions on Constitutional rights like freedom of assembly must be "narrowly tailored" and will face "a very high standard of strict scrutiny" before court orders are issued allowing enforcement. This means the government's interest would have to be compelling and exercised in the least intrusive manner possible. Cancelling church meetings over 100 miles from the nearest COVID-19 case or quarantining homes without known exposure to the virus is not "the least intrusive manner possible."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting.  My brother posted a different scene from the same movie when he learned of my offer to rescue a Christian brother being held in confinement against his will even though neither he nor anyone at the address had contracted or had contact with anyone with COVID-19.  Just US citizen minding his own business at home.
> 
> For me, the guiding principle is the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do to you."  I'd rather healthy folks live their lives and attend their church than cower in fear in their homes.  Sure, paint the doorposts with the blood of the Lamb and stay inside when the destroyer comes to your town.  But not when it is far off.
> 
> It is the sluggard that says, "There is a lion outside.  I will be murdered in the streets." (Proverbs 22:13)  Do we lock down schools when there is an active shooter in the next county?
> 
> If my loved ones were held captive against their will, I would want someone to come to their rescue.  I would despise the injustice of holding them.  How can I not do the same for others?



I appreciate your thoughts on the subject and I think you may have really hit at the heart of the matter when you mentioned "when the destroyer comes to your town". Right now, many churches are deciding to comply with the governments order since due to the amount of testing available it's difficult to know where the infection has spread. When more and faster testing is available we may see that change.


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## oops1

My wife and I looked at it like this..if we congregate..we’re effectively undoing any of the good that may come from the schools closing. The church finally decided to shut down and live stream but we had already decided to stay home .


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## LittleDrummerBoy

Right now, I'm more moved by the President's gentle request than by overbearing and overreaching orders by a Governor.  There are lots of counties in GA (and other states) over 100 miles from the nearest "presumed positive" case of COVID-19.  Ordering people to stay home or government forcing churches to cancel in those places is an overreach. 

But I'm paying attention to the clearly articulated government goal of "flattening the curve" which means delaying the peak in COVID-19 cases so that the health system can handle it.  Restrictions that make sense for a couple weeks to meet this goal will no longer be justified stretching into the summer.

It's an authoritarian maxim to "never let a crisis go to waste."  The government need not censor sermons if it can force them online where the internet service providers will do it for them.  I can probably do without a church to invite friends to for a couple weeks.  But inviting folks to church is an important evangelistic tool.  I'd hate to be without it for long.

When authoritarian government types say, "Prepare for a new normal" or "this may last a while," I don't think they're just talking about COVID-19, I think they are talking about government attempts to continue restrictions on fundamental rights, including the right to assemble and worship according to our faith and conscience without government interference.  How many "warrantless searches" and secret courts were are still in place as "emergency measures" following 9/11?  The longer the "emergency" lasts, the longer the extra powers last.


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## redwards

I invite anyone to visit this link tonight, tomorrow night, Thursday night, and/or Friday night at 7:00pm for an hour of worship and prayer.

https://bethlehemchurch.us/

Simply click on the link, then tap the "Watch Live" button. You will also be able to click on a banner (or button) to post a prayer request (or pray for someone/something) when the live stream begins.


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## mattuga

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Every one who does it is a Judas.





LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Right now, I'm more moved by the President's gentle request than by overbearing and overreaching orders by a Governor.  There are lots of counties in GA (and other states) over 100 miles from the nearest "presumed positive" case of COVID-19.  Ordering people to stay home or government forcing churches to cancel in those places is an overreach.
> 
> But I'm paying attention to the clearly articulated government goal of "flattening the curve" which means delaying the peak in COVID-19 cases so that the health system can handle it.  Restrictions that make sense for a couple weeks to meet this goal will no longer be justified stretching into the summer.
> 
> It's an authoritarian maxim to "never let a crisis go to waste."  The government need not censor sermons if it can force them online where the internet service providers will do it for them.  I can probably do without a church to invite friends to for a couple weeks.  But inviting folks to church is an important evangelistic tool.  I'd hate to be without it for long.
> 
> When authoritarian government types say, "Prepare for a new normal" or "this may last a while," I don't think they're just talking about COVID-19, I think they are talking about government attempts to continue restrictions on fundamental rights, including the right to assemble and worship according to our faith and conscience without government interference.  How many "warrantless searches" and secret courts were are still in place as "emergency measures" following 9/11?  The longer the "emergency" lasts, the longer the extra powers last.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 1007516


You are having a religious discussion about a medical issue.  Yes, they can intertwine but this is a simple problem/solution.  The disease is highly contagious, big gatherings = bad.  1 ounce of prevention is worth 1 pound of cure, pretty applicable in this case.

I think we have the rabbit hole discussion kingpin and I cannot believe I'm dipping my head this far in to respond.  Our church services were not censored, nor were any other services in the US.  Read up on South Korea where the spread gained major momentum by those not listening to the increasing crisis...church services (from a cult).  You are not of sound mind in discussing reasonable issues.  You prefer the rabbit hole approach.


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## 4HAND

mattuga said:


> You are having a religious discussion about a medical issue.  Yes, they can intertwine but this is a simple problem/solution.  The disease is highly contagious, big gatherings = bad.  1 ounce of prevention is worth 1 pound of cure, pretty applicable in this case.
> 
> I think we have the rabbit hole discussion kingpin and I cannot believe I'm dipping my head this far in to respond.  Our church services were not censored, nor were any other services in the US.  Read up on South Korea where the spread gained major momentum by those not listening to the increasing crisis...church services (from a cult).  You are not of sound mind in discussing reasonable issues.  You prefer the rabbit hole approach.


Well said.


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## LittleDrummerBoy

mattuga said:


> Our church services were not censored, nor were any other services in the US.



YouTube and FaceBook commonly sensor one local pastor I know.  Of course, he tends to preach about stuff like the evils of homosexuality and radical Islam.

The odds of being censored are much higher if one preaches on certain topics.  Likewise, avoid certain topics, and you are less likely to be censored.  Did your pastor preach on the sin of homosexuality or radical Islam this week?


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## 4HAND

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> YouTube and FaceBook commonly sensor one local pastor I know.  Of course, he tends to preach about stuff like the evils of homosexuality and radical Islam.
> 
> The odds of being censored are much higher if one preaches on certain topics.  Likewise, avoid certain topics, and you are less likely to be censored.  Did your pastor preach on the sin of homosexuality or radical Islam this week?


My Pastor preaches against Islam & homosexuality. He also includes adultery & fornication.


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## LittleDrummerBoy

Baton Rouge area pastor defies governor, welcomes large gathering into church service

The gathering directly defied an order by Louisiana Governor John Bel Edwards that bans groups larger than 50 from gathering at any one time, including in churches. President Donald Trump has recommended no groups larger than 10.

The pastor, Rev. Tony Spell, says police showed up at the church after the service telling him the National Guard would break up any future services with more than 50 people gathered. Spell says 305 people attended the service in the sanctuary Tuesday night.

Notice the police rightly did not enforce an unconstitutional order, but merely said the National Guard would handle it.  If the governor wants his orders enforced, he has to get his own thugs to do it.  I can't really see strong-handed enforcement measures here, though who knows?  The governor does have an authoritarian streak.


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## Israel

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Right now, I'm more moved by the President's gentle request than by overbearing and overreaching orders by a Governor.  There are lots of counties in GA (and other states) over 100 miles from the nearest "presumed positive" case of COVID-19.  Ordering people to stay home or government forcing churches to cancel in those places is an overreach.
> 
> But I'm paying attention to the clearly articulated government goal of "flattening the curve" which means delaying the peak in COVID-19 cases so that the health system can handle it.  Restrictions that make sense for a couple weeks to meet this goal will no longer be justified stretching into the summer.
> 
> It's an authoritarian maxim to "never let a crisis go to waste."  The government need not censor sermons if it can force them online where the internet service providers will do it for them.  I can probably do without a church to invite friends to for a couple weeks.  But inviting folks to church is an important evangelistic tool.  I'd hate to be without it for long.
> 
> When authoritarian government types say, "Prepare for a new normal" or "this may last a while," I don't think they're just talking about COVID-19, I think they are talking about government attempts to continue restrictions on fundamental rights, including the right to assemble and worship according to our faith and conscience without government interference.  How many "warrantless searches" and secret courts were are still in place as "emergency measures" following 9/11?  The longer the "emergency" lasts, the longer the extra powers last.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 1007516



The nature of crisis is to disclose, by pressure, the nature of things. It's what crisis does...apply the pressure so what is deepest inside might be manifest..."come out". Extraneous supports, hitherto often believed as "part and parcel" of a thing are removed...so the thing may be, of itself, clearly seen.

4-6 weeks ago the whole world thought it was "doing OK". So did "christendom", I am convinced, hold the same blithe attitude. And please here indulge now my use of the word "christian" although in that once perceived blitheness it once had for me little value for expression.

Now for intents and purposes, crisis may be helping restore it to its better usage...anyone, regardless of maturity, experience of Jesus Christ, calling and/or office who has been regenerated by the work of God to the faith in and of Jesus Christ, being its appropriate usage. Of those, all of us have appeared as we are, (if we be of that faith) even if completely unaware, or even completely wrong about our appearing. God knows. Crisis will make more plain.

But 4-6 weeks ago there were (of those appearing along that so called "continuum" of faith) already living in crisis. They were not waiting for one to outwardly appear, they had little illusions as to what is/was taking place by "outward appearance", they were already aware of _that pressure..._"Multitides, multitudes in the valley of decision".

They lived there, themselves, knowing each day was all they were given, histories were not something upon which they could take a stand anymore than future hope of what they might do or be meant much of anything...each day called for this thing, and this alone..."how and where is Jesus Christ appearing to me, today". What is He saying, what is He doing...surely including _where am I resisting His appearance_...no less than _where and what might be encouraged to His better sight._ They lived only knowing as much as they themselves needed reproval or rebuke, they also no less lived dependent upon the Spirit's encouragement.

And some knew better than others (those to whom _I owe so much in Christ) _they themselves were not, of themselves at all sufficient to this. Hence crisis. Their own resources availed nothing here, but they knew the crisis, saw the desperation...of which so many were blithely unaware. And crisis, that revealed "shakiness"... they allowed to drive them toward the unshakable One, that "coming back from there" they might provide bread for the shaky...even as it was provided them, in their own revelation of need. Again, to them I owe so very much in Christ.

Multitudes multitudes in the valley of decision...

And their knowing of crisis there...where their decisions as to what is of Christ to be encouraged, what is not of Christ to be either ignored or reproved...must inform their motions...their words, their actions, their decisions...yes, even here...for all in this world comes down to example. To those who have been ministering to me out of _their own great need of Christ,_ I cannot but salute. Some have never even addressed me directly, but to them who have not sought escape of the many many crises faith itself invites to its being purified by its exercise, and by entrance into this place of tribulations (the world) and to which they have submitted themselves. They submitted in faith to "going where they would not".

But now many are, and I have no doubt, many more will be "up in arms". This is...good. Faith is being examined..."what does the faith of the Son of God"...look like...TODAY. It matters little overall where any of us were 4-6 weeks ago in regards to our appraisals of our own estates, the world's wretched estate, or even what we may think (or even fear) what the so called "future holds". Today alone is the day of practice. Today is all (as was any day 4-6 weeks ago, 4-6 years ago, 4-6 decades ago) any of us are given to be an example. An example of encouragement to the body, and example to the world of all its coming judgments...that some be sobered.
And each of us given enough and more than enough...for today, as "christians".

If any of us feel the shaking today, let us shuck off any vain hope the "world" will return to what may once have appeared to us as "its stability". And I do not here make light of anyone's sufferings...even to any who may have at any time (how can I escape that judgment myself?) sought, in seeking comfort here...._even more comfort._

Our hearts go out...do they not? Our hearts are now being revealed as quite...even so very sorely so...extended into very vulnerable places...wives, children, grandchildren, parents (yes! even brothers and sisters in Christ!)...and what we may have once, in whatever pride "thought we ourselves could handle"...we now learn is extending far beyond our own ability to endure, preserve, or even bear to see suffer. Our soft spots...are being revealed.

Some may see what appears my timidity, and may rightly reprove, rebuke...but today is the day to come boldly to the throne of grace to seek grace to help in time of need. If we do not yet see our own need...we shall, for today is the only day we have ever had to see. Where total need meets total abundance...to show which prevails. To show Whom prevails.

And there perhaps...even in that abundance of grace find more that even our cups run over...to those who do not yet see their own need. Today is a good day to see it as it is, the one the Lord has made. So we need not be ashamed...in 3 weeks, or 3 years, or 3 decades...when circumstance presents...and we lament...why didn't I appreciate then, what I see only now I took for granted.

The wise among you will understand this man is only speaking of himself. To himself.

Yes.

I do not say the lessons of regret have taught me all they were appointed me to teach. But they do press me to the One in whom there is none, and the place in which none is found.







For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.


----------



## The Original Rooster

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Baton Rouge area pastor defies governor, welcomes large gathering into church service
> 
> The gathering directly defied an order by Louisiana Governor John Bel Edwards that bans groups larger than 50 from gathering at any one time, including in churches. President Donald Trump has recommended no groups larger than 10.
> 
> The pastor, Rev. Tony Spell, says police showed up at the church after the service telling him the National Guard would break up any future services with more than 50 people gathered. Spell says 305 people attended the service in the sanctuary Tuesday night.
> 
> Notice the police rightly did not enforce an unconstitutional order, but merely said the National Guard would handle it.  If the governor wants his orders enforced, he has to get his own thugs to do it.  I can't really see strong-handed enforcement measures here, though who knows?  The governor does have an authoritarian streak.


What exactly does an entirely fictional event (the British didn't burn up villagers in churches during the Revolutionary War, this scene was based on the Oradour-Sur-Glane massacre in WW2) from a fiction movie have to do with defending 1st Amendment rights?


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

RoosterTodd said:


> What exactly does an entirely fictional event (the British didn't burn up villagers in churches during the Revolutionary War, this scene was based on the Oradour-Sur-Glane massacre in WW2) from a fiction movie have to do with defending 1st Amendment rights?



What could possibly go wrong calling in the National Guard to suppress 1st Amendment rights?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

The *Kent State shootings* (also known as the *May 4 massacre* or the *Kent State massacre*), were the shootings on May 4, 1970, of unarmed college students by the Ohio National Guard at Kent State University in Kent, Ohio, during a mass protest against the bombing in neutral Cambodia by United States military forces. Twenty-eight National Guard soldiers fired approximately 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.


----------



## The Original Rooster

For heaven's sake man, stop spreading fear based on the infinitely small chance of what only could happen. Have faith.


----------



## Big7

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I tend to agree that while the week or health compromised need to stay home, wholesale church closures are not called for, especially in counties with no reported cases of COVID-19.  And while I don't mind a situational church cancellation here or there, I think the church will become much less effective if this lasts very long - especially if organizations stop meeting in person.
> 
> One church we attend, Free Chapel, moved their big Sunday meetings online, but small groups were still meeting over the weekend.  Pastor Jentzen gave an excellent message that reached over 200,000 people, which is many more that can fit into our main campus in Gainesville.   Another fellowship we attend occasionally, First Century Ministries, held their normal service in person.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The government does not have the authority to cancel meetings of the church, as this would violate the 1st Amendment protections of freedom of assembly and freedom of religion.  Why is it that so many people who accept "separation of church and state" think that government can cancel church meetings?  The mayor of Atlanta has already moved to ban church meetings over a certain size.  We must obey God rather than men.
> 
> Allowing government to cancel meetings of the church sets a very dangerous precedent.  There may be specific locations where the reasons seem justified in the present purported "crisis" but if all "justification" requires is government scientists saying "we need to do this" then future governments will be able to find those scientists.
> 
> Decisions of the church may be informed by government and/or scientists.  But both the Bible and the Constitution require that decision making belongs to the church, and the church should remain autonomous from government decrees forcing cancellations and closures.
> 
> Giving the government authority to determine how and where churches meet is not working out well for Christians in China.


All that SOUNDS good. But it ain't.
I'm pretty sure CDC and other government entities know much more about those things than you or I do.

There are times for holy rollerin'.
THIS AIN'T THE TIME.?


----------



## Big7

RoosterTodd said:


> For heaven's sake man, stop spreading fear based on the infinitely small chance of what only could happen. Have faith.


THANK YOU !!!


----------



## Israel

LOL...there's nothing in the world that can prevent a man from considering his own life forfeit for the Lord. The best it can do is to only help him prove it.


----------



## 4HAND

Still tore up about postponing church services when his church closed BEFORE any mandates came from anyone. SMH!


----------



## redwards

I just went back to the opening post and re-read it. This statement stood out to me.

"The Holy Spirit knew there would be diseases and plagues."

I would say that is a very true statement....and perhaps that is why, in a country (Italy) where everything is shut down....things like this occur...proves to me that you ain't GOT to be in a "church building" to experience God's marvelous Grace!
It is an instagram post with four pictures...I hope you can slide from right to left to see them all. The text of the post is shown in the attached image.

__
		http://instagr.am/p/B91z0k3Jm_y/


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## NCHillbilly

Your right to get your religious fix in a mass gathering ends at my right for you to not put me and my family in more danger of infection with a potentially deadly virus. You do realize that God don't just live at your church? You can find God anywhere if you look for it.


----------



## 4HAND

NCHillbilly said:


> Your right to get your religious fix in a mass gathering ends at my right for you to not put me and my family in more danger of infection with a potentially deadly virus. You do realize that God don't just live at your church? You can find God anywhere if you look for it.


That also applies to someone refusing to self quarantine in their own home.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

NCHillbilly said:


> Your right to get your religious fix in a mass gathering ends at my right for you to not put me and my family in more danger of infection with a potentially deadly virus. You do realize that God don't just live at your church?



Of course.  But it's a free country, and if I choose to find God at a local church, I can do that without putting your family in any danger.  If I thought attended church this Sunday had a heightened risk of disease transmission, I would stay home.  

The goal of all the social distancing measures is to "flatten the curve" of COVID-19 cases, not to completely eliminate the possibility of the spread.  My family currently has reduced our social interactions by over 90% and is carefully observing the personal hygiene measures.  We are not going to busy workplaces or school.  We are reducing our shopping trips considerably (buying more at once.)  We have cancelled many ordinary activities.  

This week, my only social interactions in gatherings with more than 10 people were a visit to a local shooting range and a short shopping trip.  Next week, my only planned social interaction in a gathering of more than 10 people will be attending a local church in a community where the COVID-19 cases would be described as "none to minimal" by the CDC. Since about 75% will be attending online, there is plenty of room in the building to maintain the recommended 6 foot spacing.  Here are recent CDC recommendations for faith-based gatherings in communities where COVID-19 cases are none to minimal:



Sure, there are some Georgia counties where the recommendations for moderate to substantial would be more appropriate.  But churches in most Georgia counties would still be in the "none to minimal" category.  The church I plan to attend on Sunday far exceeds the CDC recommendations above, and in fact meets the CDC recommendations for the "minimal to moderate" category even though the COVID-19 outbreak has not yet reached that level in their community.

I challenged a group of scientists yesterday to show me the data supporting the notion that stricter guidelines than the ones above are necessary to "flatten the curve."  They were unable to.  But they did provide data showing that social distancing measures that were not applied until after the 1918 flu was known to be in a SPECIFIC CITY were very effective in flattening the curve in those cities.


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## j_seph

https://www.npr.org/2020/02/21/807483297/why-are-swarms-of-locusts-wreaking-havoc-in-east-africa


----------



## Israel

Look, I like smart people as much as the next guy. Or maybe dislike them as much as the next guy, God knows.

And no one has ever been more convinced they are _smart enough_ to be them self than me. In fact, I have considered myself to be so spilling over in smarts to be graciously (hey! is that laughter I hear...!?) willing to share them with the _less fortunate._

I'm a giver, y'know, what can I say?

So, that being said, even the brilliant and kind sometimes get stymied. Why perplexing is allowed to happen to such a good person...well, I may never know...but nevertheless...


I read this and...well...really it becomes a hard stop.

You may be familiar with a woman asking for a "tight spot" next to the King for her kids.





> And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.




Sounds to me like "good looking out, Ma!"...what good momma don't want honor for her children?

then:



> But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask.




OK, that seems pretty plain...and so much like Jesus (who has a good reputation for seeing and knowing what other folks don't)...or maybe don't know yet. Kinda like a need to reconsider of the question is being addressed, cause it seems the asker don't even understand (any?) all? of the implications present in the request.

But then Jesus helps out with outlining what seems at least one parameter of restriction unseen..._in the request itself_...but He takes it off into what appears a new direction but that _at least is included_ in requests for favored seating arrangements:



> Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?




The obvious question is "whatever is He talking about?" At least...at that time, right? Wouldn't that be a good question...at least...then? Could you spell it out a little plainer what that all includes, Lord?
We here...on the other side pretty well think we know what He's talking about...don't we? We are after all, pretty smart.

So, already some of you are smart enough to see where even a guy like me...already confessed...pretty smart...already believing "I'm on the side of that event that really needs no explaining"...is beginning to get a little...spun round.

So, here is where the stymying grows to full blossom...of not knowing at all.



> They say unto him, We are able.



Basically in full agreement and endorsement of their ability to share in the Lord's sufferings.

Or, am I reading it wrong?


So...did they fully know what Jesus was talking about; and in that make an honest response of their ability?

Or, did they not know at all, but only presumed to know "all about the cross of Christ" or whatever suffering would be endured in that baptism...yet...even in such ignorant presumption make a confident prediction of their own ability?

Kinda like my calculus professor asking me "can we do some math together"? and I say..."Sure! Let's do this!"
(Ha ha ha...you could be finding out by my grades...I may not be as smart as I once reported! And that...only a few sentences ago!)

See, in that moment, at that very time of their answer, I can't tell if they are being honest about their own ability, lying in ignorance about what they think they are capable of, not being "honest about their ignorance" (remember after this comes "I will smite the shepherd and the sheep shall be scattered"), and whether Jesus can handle a disciple's honesty, or lying, or ignorance...in response to Him.

Or maybe none of it matters at all...whether we lie to ourselves, lie to the Lord or lie to one another about what we "will do". Or believe ourselves able to do.

Cause after this it appears Jesus puts all that to rest, regardless of how or what might appear disciples think of themselves, what they think they can do, what they think they know or don't...or even...

_if so doing!_...will not ensure a "better seat".



> And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but _it shall be given to them_ for whom it is prepared of my Father.



Very much like it's all, already been decided, settled...done.


Now I get how stupid being confused about this makes me look. And very smart people have told me "that's not for us" to consider...only _those apostles (or disciples) _were assigned to know the cross that way. Regardless of what they may or may have not known, said, understood about it...in the seeming _beforehand._

In truth...many many voices tell me to pay no attention to what is not "for me"...while only one reminds me to pay attention. And this voice has the same timbre whether the voice sounds masculine (brothers) feminine (sisters)...or just like a breeze blowing over me at midnight in my bed.

I don't know the significance of the cross to myself...much at all. And that's about all I get from that whole exchange...how that the cross can handle boasters, the ignorant and/or liars, (and yikes!) those who speak for Satan...even when found among disciples.

And I'm only persuaded a disciple will indeed know it.

And if I know so little about it to myself...how could I ever begin to discern rightly, conclusively...who is actually seeking to follow in the obedience of faith, who is just being presumptuous due to ignorance, or just boastful for the benefit of a good seat or an audience.?

I don't even know that about myself.

I only believe I know what gets said to anything that would attempt to dissuade from its bearing. (Can Satan speak through a disciple?)

And I am also convinced there's not one thing in the world, or of it, that wants any of us to even consider it. Or, God help us...admit how little we know of it...that appeal be found there to a better understanding...to One so very eager to reveal.

Lord, what are you talking about?

WOW Lord! Yikes! But that is some cup!

I wouldn't know where to even begin.

And still do not.

I only know what gets said to what tries to dissuade.

And...even there...the Lord gives hope. To even smart people.

Nope. I am wrong.

_Especially_...smart people.

And I am still wrong. But no one has ever needed me to tell them that.


----------



## Gator89

https://www.foxnews.com/us/coronavirus-police-church-defy-state-order

Police responded Tuesday night to a Louisiana church where hundreds had congregated despite the state's ban on gatherings of more than 50 people — part of the effort to stop the spread of coronavirus.

Tony Spell, pastor of Life Tabernacle Church in Baton Rouge, said no "dictator law" could keep people from worshipping God, according to the local news.

A police officer told the pastor that the National Guard will break up future gatherings that violate the public health rules issued by Louisiana Gov. John Bel Edwards.

However, Louisiana National Guard Colonel Ed Bush said Wednesday that is not accurate.

“The National Guard has not been tasked with enforcing any of the curfew, social distancing or meeting requirements as set by the governor,” Bush said. “Our focus right now is completely with helping state agencies with preparedness and medical readiness."


----------



## Israel

Gator89 said:


> https://www.foxnews.com/us/coronavirus-police-church-defy-state-order
> 
> Police responded Tuesday night to a Louisiana church where hundreds had congregated despite the state's ban on gatherings of more than 50 people — part of the effort to stop the spread of coronavirus.
> 
> Tony Spell, pastor of Life Tabernacle Church in Baton Rouge, said no "dictator law" could keep people from worshipping God, according to the local news.
> 
> A police officer told the pastor that the National Guard will break up future gatherings that violate the public health rules issued by Louisiana Gov. John Bel Edwards.
> 
> However, Louisiana National Guard Colonel Ed Bush said Wednesday that is not accurate.
> 
> “The National Guard has not been tasked with enforcing any of the curfew, social distancing or meeting requirements as set by the governor,” Bush said. “Our focus right now is completely with helping state agencies with preparedness and medical readiness."


 

It's rare, right...when an entity is almost invited to step beyond its authority, when all "else" might seem to justify...nevertheless stays in its own lane.
Refreshing.


----------



## Madman

If this eventually grows into persecution, which I don't believe it will, remember, the church has always flourished under persecution. 

The Church is currently in the middle of Lent, where God calls us to give up something good for something ultimately better, perhaps we should be giving up the "good" of weekly assembling, for the "better" of Easter this year. 

Or the good of weekly meeting to insure our elderly stay well. Or the good of weekly meeting so that us fathers can practice directly leading our families on the Lords Day. 

Let's all prepare a Sunday school lesson and gather the family around the kitchen table. 

Prayer and fasting brothers, even the gates of He!! cannot prevail against the Church.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

Madman said:


> If this eventually grows into persecution, which I don't believe it will, remember, the church has always flourished under persecution.
> 
> The Church is currently in the middle of Lent, where God calls us to give up something good for something ultimately better, perhaps we should be giving up the "good" of weekly assembling, for the "better" of Easter this year.



I would not be concerned if I thought forced government closures of churches would only last a week or two.  Being over by Resurrection Day would also not be so bad.  But the current order of church closures from the Louisiana governor extends past Resurrection Day.  This is the state where the police threatened a church to call in the National Guard to enforce the order.  (Both the police and National Guard since backed off.)  Yet, the governor of Louisiana has said "get ready for a new normal" and that closures may need to be extended.  Other states are ordering church closures as well.

Yes, persecutions tend to refine the church by weeding out the pretenders.  I've noticed many folks who quoted "do not forsake the assembling of the saints" have been quick to support the widespread  cancellation of church meetings, even in counties with a single known case of COVID-19.  Some used the example of Old Testament temple worship to support their views that attendance in a "real" church (rather than a non-church fellowship) was preferred.  The temple stayed open for public worship through many epidemics and plagues.  If someone had leprosy, for example, there was a procedure for the priest to declare them unclean, after which they were excluded from the temple for the duration of their illness.  But there was no closure of the temple or contemplation of excluding worshipers who MIGHT have leprosy.

One place these cancellations are going to hurt is in giving to the work of the church, or tithing as some call it.  My wife and I certainly plan to maintain our normal giving, but some churches in our community are already hurting.  We might shift our giving to churches more careful not to forsake the assembling of the saints.

We've found a couple churches not far from us that have announced their intent to remain open this Sunday.  First Pentecostal Church of Buford and Buford Church of God.


----------



## Ruger#3

Church is epicenter of an outbreak here.

https://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-n...fter-attending-church/D1ljw0bIUvY2CTQ1ZIiZIM/


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

Ruger#3 said:


> Church is epicenter of an outbreak here.
> 
> https://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-n...fter-attending-church/D1ljw0bIUvY2CTQ1ZIiZIM/



No doubt one can get sick at church.   A church in South Korea played a significant part in the outbreak there.  A bad case of bronchitis got passed around last January in the church I was attending.  

The common theme in these cases are several critical mistakes: 1) Someone comes to church sick.  2)  Hygiene errors (hugs, handshakes, bodily contact, insufficient hand washing, etc.)  I've asked a number of folks if there is any evidence of transmission in cases where the recommended hygiene procedures are carefully adhered to:
a) six foot distance
b) hand washing
c) sick people stay home
d) avoid body contact, handshakes, hugs
e) cough into a tissue
and so on.

There is not.  

There have been plenty of church shootings in the past few years, but even people dying in church has not been any motivation for me not to attend.  Implementing steps to greatly reduce the odds can be sufficient.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

First Century Ministries will also be meeting this week, with some change to prevent transmission.

https://www.facebook.com/1stcentury...212850620517/2254874214821039/?type=3&theater 

Reading all their description provides an excellent example of what our attitude should be with respect to closing churches.  If you want to attend, note they meet tomorrow rather than on Sunday.


----------



## Madman

There is too much here to properly address but here are a few comments:



LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Yes, persecutions tend to refine the church by weeding out the pretenders.


No. Historically when the church was persecuted the general population saw how they were being treated and yet followed the laws. One ancient historian wrote "see how they follow the law and pay their taxes." the general population wanted to know why these Christians did all of this without complaining even unto death.  Because Christ commands it was the answer.



LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I've noticed many folks who quoted "do not forsake the assembling of the saints" have been quick to support the widespread  cancellation of church meetings,


Paul is talking about assembling together in general, not when it is potentially life threatening.



LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Some used the example of Old Testament temple worship to support their views that attendance in a "real" church (rather than a non-church fellowship) was preferred.  The temple stayed open for public worship through many epidemics and plagues.  If someone had leprosy, for example, there was a procedure for the priest to declare them unclean, after which they were excluded from the temple for the duration of their illness.  But there was no closure of the temple or contemplation of excluding worshipers who MIGHT have leprosy.



A leper could be visibly recognized, I would hope if someone tried to enter worship with a fever, sweating, and noticeably sick the priest/pastor/minister would ask them to please not come in. 

The Christian is expected to follow reasonable laws even if it saddens them, but by all means if you feel some righteous indignation about being asked not to gather go ahead.

As for me and my family we will have morning prayer in my home, after all "where 2 or 3 are gathered together in his name, he is in the midst of them".


----------



## Israel

It's all coming out and going to.

Did we really think the discloser of the hidden thoughts and intents of the heart was AWOL?

If one gathers for any other than that which is purposed as found in "love worketh no ill to his neighbor", and if one is not found of such gathering for any purpose other than that, does God not know?

None of us have dominion over any other's faith, nor any other's calling.

Sometimes we are lowered down a wall hidden in a basket to escape sworn murderers, and sometimes we stand and say:

What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.

This is not explained, it is either understood or not.  And if one does not, it is far better for him to remain silent than pretend he does. But again, I have no authority to forbid anything...

But in either case, hidden in basket or standing bare to all assault, the wisdom of God is to neither judge Paul as either seeking to preserve his own life in one instance...or of being bold only _in presumption_ in the other. To his own master he stands or falls.

Children, and novices (no matter their years) have not yet come to the place where the question is formed in them "Am I using a thing by convenience (yes...even scripture!) to preserve my own life?" Knowing such question is plain before their Lord.

Likewise...those with a bent toward hostility and confrontations do not know till they have this question formed..."Do I merely use Jesus Christ (or the scriptures) to justify myself in my own sight to indulge a contrarian nature?" Do I just enjoy the chaos? And again, such question is plain before the Lord.

The nature of everything is being exposed. But this is not something new or foreign...is it?

Fiery trials. Are they strange to us? Or have we been living daily in and with them?

A brother recently wrote this:



> So much for belief in Christ removing the sting of death. During the first couple of centuries Christians stayed and cared for the sick and dying during the plagues that hit the Roman Empire They did it out of love and the confidence that death to them would mean a better place. Death to todays Christians means no more TV, eating out or going to their kids sporting events. Yeah, I would say something was lost along the way.



Another has learned and testified that taking a stand for a clear conscience in a matter can so easily cost a job.

And I'm persuaded there be some that may believe the world, its governments, its laws and disposition has in some way become kinder toward Jesus Christ. It would never take any occasion...or seek to find one...to do despite to the Lord's name in His people. Especially in a place called the land of the free and the home of the brave.

To say truly none of my words are ever untainted by a love of the soap box does not mean I have the Lord's answer of my disposition, only that I know that question remains before Him...how preachy am I made to be?

So much depends upon how much are we made able to bear...to ourselves.

None of us is made able to "follow the Bible".

As another beloved brother recently wrote in regards to his coming to a place (if I understand him rightly)...where he finds less is enjoined to a boast of what the truth is...than the more often and plain convincing of _what it is not_. To me it sounds like "I may not see the Lord clearly at all times, and in all things...but I may know certain things by what I know He is not".

How much sight may be gained by simply resisting what may be found pressing to what we simply cannot deny is unwholesome! Repentance is a gift to turn from where, and in those things we have learned He is not seen...in hope that where He does appear will be made plain.

He will not be found in fear, nor recriminations, backbitings, or betrayals. Is at least one sense I get from this brother. And that because I see him plainly shun them.
And I hear the three who say "we don't know whether God will save us out of this furnace...but whether He does or not, nevertheless, know this O King, we ain't gonna bow down to that idol."

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, _and_ giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and _for_ all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this _is_ good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

does not negate

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

We may not often know to a right discerning what is of presumptuous boldness or a timid retreat or Godly boldness, and a time of righteous and silent submission...even before the wicked of this world.

It appears at very least I might hardly know these things for myself, but I can testify there's a disposition to always see myself in the best light _I seem able to afford._

And that's where the laughter starts.

Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

For I have nothing of myself able to afford _that patience..._it's a gift. I can't prove that to anyone...but I can show them a man with egg so often on his face.


----------



## Havana Dude

Y’all need to chill. Look up the word forsake. Means to give up on, abandon. That ain’t what’s happening here. God also commanded us to abide by the law of our govt. our church has a large amount of 65+ members. I think some of you need re-evaluate WHY you go to church. Our pastor has chosen to do his messages on YouTube. We don’t normally go to Wednesday night services. I’ve already enjoyed one bible study on a Wednesday night video. SOme folks go to church to be seen and get a gold star. Not me.


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## 4HAND

Havana Dude said:


> Y’all need to chill. Look up the word forsake. Means to give up on, abandon. That ain’t what’s happening here. God also commanded us to abide by the law of our govt. our church has a large amount of 65+ members. I think some of you need re-evaluate WHY you go to church. Our pastor has chosen to do his messages on YouTube. We don’t normally go to Wednesday night services. I’ve already enjoyed one bible study on a Wednesday night video. SOme folks go to church to be seen and get a gold star. Not me.


Yes sir, well said.


----------



## Israel

Havana Dude said:


> Y’all need to chill. Look up the word forsake. Means to give up on, abandon. That ain’t what’s happening here. God also commanded us to abide by the law of our govt. our church has a large amount of 65+ members. I think some of you need re-evaluate WHY you go to church. Our pastor has chosen to do his messages on YouTube. We don’t normally go to Wednesday night services. I’ve already enjoyed one bible study on a Wednesday night video. SOme folks go to church to be seen and get a gold star. Not me.



I am not convinced the OP was quite as troubled by empty (or emptier) pews as what appeared to him as clear precedent of a government (or governor) attempting overreach to make sure they are at least "emptier".

And who, or what is found very quickly in agreement. (Which may yet to be displayed as wisdom, nevertheless!)

And I believe you are very correct in commending to



> re-evaluate WHY you go to church.



If such is equated with attending a physical location. And this surely applies equally, and no less to those in pews or behind pulpits.

One cannot hide _anything_ from the Lord.

It's been quite easy to quote, and not infrequently heard, both the verses regarding assembling and _no less_ obedience to authorities.

It may not come as any surprise to some that if the instruction to assemble is used by some to _merely fill pews_ (or make display of their own righteousness in doing so by sitting in them) that these same are first the more than willing to succumb.

Yet..._just as likewise_... it is no surprise to some that there are those in authority (anywhere and everywhere they may be found) who believe their authority is in excess in their own imaginations.

Pilate tried to intimidate (do I read it wrongly?) Jesus Christ with his. But Jesus knows the limits.

The believer is always in a strait...a strait only resolved in Jesus Christ. He knows that sometimes he will be called to appear as one "in resistance" to some, or many...in his right submission of conscience before God. He cannot help how he appears to some. And God forbid he abandon those straits not caring if he appear...rebel to God.

Likewise he may appear as most submissive (for the Lord's purpose) to what others may see as mere worldly authority...again...in submission to God.

The ten Booms. Easily admired...but who cares to occupy their place? A government claiming right to search out and secure every Jew...who and what is obeyed?

And there are some believers whose consciences are so sensitive that, even if there were an edict declaring (and, yes! even in practice) "Tell us where every Jew is so that we may give them a gold and diamond crown" would find themselves in no less a strait.

Our reliance upon the Spirit to show what is to "new life" and what is not is of profoundest necessity...and in grace then given by God. The simplicity of it is only found when plumbing of _what is_ of most profound necessity, however.

And even if we be sometime found as those who prefer to shoot from the hip we are called to depths...for many are the woundings of which we may become aware by stray bullets and casual use of weapons.

O! The crushing weight borne by Jesus Christ! Preferring himself to be casualty than be found casual about His God, our God. His Father, our Father.

Yes...it is easy to want a gold star...who doesn't? Easy for any believer to want to be found close to Jesus...and revealed so. What could be more right?

But who wants to open their mouth to _their very dearest of hearts_ in _that Name_...knowing in doing so they may well be fitting them for a lion's gnawing?

One_ might want to make sure _what they are giving out is sufficient to the _carrying past_ of that experience.

Jesus Christ has.

Our _only surety._


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## Havana Dude

Israel, I’ve taken a few blows to the ole noggin in my 54 years. I’m an incredibly simple man, not very intellectual. I read your writings and literally feel dumb after reading them. Not saying they MAKE me dumber, it’s a “big word” thing?. Maybe you said this in your last comment, so forgive me if I repeat it. Another aspect of all of this is, how would non Christians or the un churched view Christianity if we just ignored the govt orders for the well being of ALL people? Our pastor eluded to that in his opening remarks of his first video. He also stated that it is clear that the govt is doing this for the people’s safety, and not some evil plot against Christianity. If ONLY churches were being targeted, the conversation would be profoundly different.


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## Throwback

Here’s why 

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/georgia/...ting-virus-church/WHYT4XC3EJB4PPEP3B5FD37VAU/


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## 4HAND

Havana Dude said:


> Israel, I’ve taken a few blows to the ole noggin in my 54 years. I’m an incredibly simple man, not very intellectual. I read your writings and literally feel dumb after reading them. Not saying they MAKE me dumber, it’s a “big word” thing?. Maybe you said this in your last comment, so forgive me if I repeat it. Another aspect of all of this is, how would non Christians or the un churched view Christianity if we just ignored the govt orders for the well being of ALL people? Our pastor eluded to that in his opening remarks of his first video. He also stated that it is clear that the govt is doing this for the people’s safety, and not some evil plot against Christianity. If ONLY churches were being targeted, the conversation would be profoundly different.


^^This Right Here^^


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## Throwback

From what I’ve read the first person in my county That died got it from going to church too


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## StriperAddict

Amen to the Israel post, ha!,  even unto a lion's gnawing, there's grace for the timid hearts or the bold witness!

As to assembly, I'm very much a fan of goings on in meetings on FB (and YouTube) but carefully, as some meetings which try to build up - tear down, not intentionally perhaps. A right dividing is key. However, our minds and hearts are aware that Who came for the Building up of the greater (love, life, salvation, etc., call what you will), will come not with hand made buildings but of a sufficiency in Himself ever ready for any tribulation. Take courage in this time, beloved. Greater is He ...

Concerning meetings, etc., some of my favs have had live "backyard" meets, FB Live and some real gutsy encouragement from one to another. It is good for the heart to be strengthened in grace. 

Encouraging one another in the faith and getting together using today's technology is a welcome relief in the storm.


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## NCHillbilly

Throwback said:


> Here’s why
> 
> https://www.wsbtv.com/news/georgia/...ting-virus-church/WHYT4XC3EJB4PPEP3B5FD37VAU/





Throwback said:


> From what I’ve read the first person in my county That died got it from going to church too



Why do you hate The Lord?


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## LittleDrummerBoy

Good to see a man in power who fears God, recognizes the 1st Amendment, and is unwilling to persecute Christians for continuing to "meet together."  God bless Texas!

https://www.kxan.com/news/gov-abbot...ZqABjbGHxxfTEFFGYDaJ4cY_hxgMcoCYNkkR_0SAbQM58


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## 4HAND

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Good to see a man in power who fears God, recognizes the 1st Amendment, and is unwilling to persecute Christians for continuing to "meet together."  God bless Texas!
> 
> https://www.kxan.com/news/gov-abbot...ZqABjbGHxxfTEFFGYDaJ4cY_hxgMcoCYNkkR_0SAbQM58


If you think this is persecution, you don't know the definition.


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## LittleDrummerBoy

4HAND said:


> If you think this is persecution, you don't know the definition.



So the police threatening to send in the National Guard is OK with you?

Forced church closures in violation of the 1st Amendment is a problem.  Do they have to put Christians in jail for it to be persecution in your mind?


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## 4HAND

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> So the police threatening to send in the National Guard is OK with you?
> 
> Forced church closures in violation of the 1st Amendment is a problem.  Do they have to put Christians in jail for it to be persecution in your mind?



No sir. But this is not persecution. 
Some churches in my area are not having services. Some are. We are having church tomorrow. We have taken measures in regard to social distancing. In the future we may wind up doing live stream or holding services outdoors. We have a large property & could have outside services with attendees spread out.
But if my state closes churches we will abide by that.
This is temporary. 

In some areas courthouses, restaurants, businesses are all closing. Many social gatherings are being canceled or postponed. This is not an attempt by gov to close churches. This is to promote social distancing. Again, this is not persecution.


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## Israel

Havana Dude said:


> Israel, I’ve taken a few blows to the ole noggin in my 54 years. I’m an incredibly simple man, not very intellectual. I read your writings and literally feel dumb after reading them. Not saying they MAKE me dumber, it’s a “big word” thing?. Maybe you said this in your last comment, so forgive me if I repeat it. Another aspect of all of this is, how would non Christians or the un churched view Christianity if we just ignored the govt orders for the well being of ALL people? Our pastor eluded to that in his opening remarks of his first video. He also stated that it is clear that the govt is doing this for the people’s safety, and not some evil plot against Christianity. If ONLY churches were being targeted, the conversation would be profoundly different.



I ask you to forgive me when I get stupid in my choice of words.

That's a tough call to make for another ain't it? I mean...how "we" as believers appear to others. Unbelievers and/or _un-churched._

Man but doesn't that open a whole can of worms? Not that I am against that cause I've always found the Lord willing. Except in myself the prying open of those areas looks more like a snake pit. The Lord ain't skeered of shining light on those places I might think better kept closed and to myself.

Yes. We could sometimes look like simple stiff necked and rebellious folks...without a care for our neighbors. I sure can't navigate all the possible permutations of appearances. But that does not mean I (or anyone) should be ignorant of them and their effects...especially if we believe we carry the Lord's name. And that, not in vain.
Yep, basically, even if we don't have a full appreciation of the extents...we are all on display.

It becomes a matter of conscience, though, doesn't it?

This next section may not to any seem relevant.

But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things _which happened_ unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel; So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other _places_; And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

What to me is relevant is where Paul stakes out _his position.  _

What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

In one way it holds a beckoning. Free of any personal burden now to choose among what disposition to hold toward who is preaching, as long as Christ's name is being lifted.

Yet, at first glance it could appear the furthest cry from another concern, right? Kinda like "Hey Paul, don't you care if hypocrites preach? Don't you care about motives? Couldn't some be preaching a "false gospel"?

But here's what I see as the point...little has been done to more effectively advance the gospel (even through a man like Paul) than the maintenance of the joy found in it.

It sounds weird right? How could a man, by just holding to the joy he has found in God through Christ...effectively do much...in the earth? And why would God be found so_ strenuously_ working through such a one? What power is found...in "_just"_ joy?

Isn't it "better" to have all doctrines line up to some perceived perfection? Isn't it better a man be a great teacher...have all sortsa Bible knowledge at hand to dispense? (I trust I can bear if needed the accusation "this man says doctrine doesn't matter!")

Joy is spiritual matter. The strength of the gospel in many ways is all dependent upon it. At least as such joy is the joy found in Jesus Christ. I am not talking here about a pasted smile or empty laughter. What if we were to touch "God's good pleasure"? Could we endure it? Could we imagine how "good" His _good_ is? How pleasurable His _pleasure_ is? Could we contain it?

Does God, like some caricature of a (forgive offense) Jewish mother...love us with a sigh like "Oy, but I worked all morning into the afternoon to make your chicken and dumplings!" Almost like a masochist?

Or do we believe this? Can we believe this? Is this able to be believed?

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put _him_ to grief:  "

Talk about opening a can of worms, right?

Cause without the Spirit's light...let's face it...treading here means we must face our own understandings which could surely include "what is God some kind of sadist?" 
And who wants to even say that? Admit that because of a nature that has no understanding of joy, or "good" pleasure...can only see in that light!

Is God pleading with hands wringing "But look what I did for you?" Poor poor me.

I do not wish, (and all Heaven laughs at me) or think I am able, or can diminish the Lord's death on our behalf. That is not the point at all. But if there be a love that so far exceeds in measure...so that in seeing such sacrifice I am told "I was glad to do it for you"...how can this but not lead to hysterically joyous transport?
Jesus Christ did not go to the cross with a sigh "OK, OK, dad, I'll do it..." Like a son just trying to get his father off his back in regards to mowing the lawn.

"For the joy set before Him..." There was nothing that could prevent Him...in that joy. Even all the burden of most joyless sin...could not prevent!

Yes, joy is strong. We are told that it is the Lord's joy that is our strength. That we meet a very very happy face...when we come home to the Father...and not a scowl...though many scowls may have to be endured...even in our own imaginations. Sometimes even from our own beloved brothers.


(Don't wonder if I speak to you as a man who has had the very deepest wonder to almost _all despair_, even "in Christ"..."I simply cannot see how the God that approves Jesus Christ...could have any love for me") And that's where my laughter started. That's right...I cannot see how. I have had to be shown!



What has anything to do with this? I guess in all I continue to look for the man who understands "it is all to our joy that we are instructed to meet" (with no burden of unpleasant obligation.)

And also meet the man who also says "It is all to our joy we are instructed to submit to authorities" (with no burden of unpleasant obligation)

Love works no ill to his neighbor...by placing unpleasant burdens.

I think Paul got that...serve the Lord with gladness. Let a whole platter of gladness such as been given to us...be served in return to the Lord...that our joy (and His) may be full. 

And of the increase of his government there shall be no end...in this mutual back and forth and ever ascending sharing...

up up and awayyyyy....


----------



## The Original Rooster

I've read quite a bit now from many sources about Pastor Tony Spell's comments about staying open. It sounds more like human arrogance than a desire to serve the Lord. You should not test God by intentionally putting yourself and others in danger. Pastor Spell says there are healing, signs, and wonders done in his church that can't be done in a Livestream. I am skeptical of a pastor who puts limits on what God can do and where he can do it. If God wants to heal and provide signs and wonders using a Livestream, he will. The pastor also wants to distribute handkerchiefs that have healing powers. I believe the pastor is borrowing from the book of Acts where handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched Christ healed others. A handkerchief is not what you put your faith in.
Trust God. Obey the law. Meet with your family at your home and pray for our country and the world. Help your neighbors. This is what I feel the Lord has called us to do.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

4HAND said:


> Again, this is not persecution.



I agree.  Voluntary church closures in Georgia are not persecution.  

But forced closures in Louisiana with police threatening to send in the National Guard, and the DA threatening criminal charges for churches that continue to meet is a real and present threat of persecution.

My original point was in praise of Gov. Abbott in Texas for taking the same road of Georgia (voluntary action) rather than Louisiana (forced closures, threats of National Guard and criminal charges).


----------



## NCHillbilly

I honestly feel a whole lot more sorry for the folks who own restaurants, bars, hotels, and other businesses that are shut down than I do for church congregations who can't gather for a few weeks. You are being inconvenienced, and can worship anywhere you wish. God will understand. Those other folks are possibly losing their livelihoods.

Does it not bother you at all that folks are spreading and catching this disease and dying from being at church? Would Jesus want you to kill his children so that you can feel better about not interrupting your worship service schedule? Nobody will die from not hearing you preach or sing for a few weeks. They might from coming to church.


----------



## hummerpoo

RoosterTodd said:


> I can find a lot of verses in the Bible saying obey government authority but only a few saying resist government authority.


Surely I missed the discussion of Rm. 13 with its attendant elements of our discernment of "good behavior" vs "evil" behavior and "assembling" together vs. "love your neighbor".  If it is absent from this thread, then its absence is, for me, the most interesting aspect of the thread.


----------



## NCHillbilly

Israel said:


> How do you know that? I'm truly more than a little interested.
> 
> Is climbing on the roof and hollering consistent with being "that radical"...and therefore if it is not being done one is a hypocrite? Or is it that if that is done one is foolish?
> 
> Cause how would you know...if it be consistency...that LDB doesn't do that?
> And why would you suspect his occasional appearances on here are not only interspersed between hilarious giving of thanks?
> 
> I have been observing this brother's posts for some time, but that means nothing. Doesn't mean I know his heart, truly. But I sense his call to make disciples is something he takes seriously, not casually. Any are free to think of him, me, or any of us what they will, even as to how that instruction is received and carried out. But we might agree, nevertheless, it is an instruction given by the Lord...and apparently taken quite seriously by those who wrote much of the book in which we find very comforting words. Perhaps even for a day such as this.
> 
> To me it seems a very casual dismissal...but then again...that could just be me judging a judgment  "before the time"...and better instructed till the Lord makes certainly clear.
> 
> But I have to admit, regardless...the most comforting words I have ever heard have come through those considered in "their day"...too radical.


One question, in plain English: How much use are dead disciples?


----------



## redwards

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Baton Rouge area pastor defies governor, welcomes large gathering into church service
> 
> The gathering directly defied an order by Louisiana Governor John Bel Edwards that bans groups larger than 50 from gathering at any one time, including in churches. President Donald Trump has recommended no groups larger than 10.
> 
> The pastor, Rev. Tony Spell, says police showed up at the church after the service telling him the National Guard would break up any future services with more than 50 people gathered. Spell says 305 people attended the service in the sanctuary Tuesday night.
> 
> Notice the police rightly did not enforce an unconstitutional order, but merely said the National Guard would handle it.  If the governor wants his orders enforced, he has to get his own thugs to do it.  I can't really see strong-handed enforcement measures here, though who knows?  The governor does have an authoritarian streak.


LittleDrummerBoy, I just got one question...
Since the church, whose Pastor says will continue to hold services, is located in the East Baton Rouge Parish...according to this source...

https://www.wafb.com/2020/03/18/bat...welcomes-large-gathering-into-church-service/

"Tuesday’s service was held at Life Tabernacle Church in the City of Central, located in East Baton Rouge Parish. Rev. Spell says he does not believe his congregation is at risk of getting COVID-19."

...and now the CDC has 8 confirmed cases of COVID-19 in East Baton Rouge Parish (see attached image)*....*

*What if...even one of those confirmed cases is a member of that congregation who was in attendance at the service.
Would the Pastor be justified in holding services when HIS decision put an entire congregation at risk?*


----------



## dixiecutter

Israel said:


> How do you know that?


I don't


----------



## Spotlite

We had services but at the same time, we have some elderly. Plus we are trying to honor request to not congregate in more than 10 at a time. It’s tough, I didn’t agree with it, but I also see the concern of exposing our elderly. As an option for 2 weeks, we are live streaming our services and grouping in groups of 8 at home. 

Our churches also believe in obeying the law of the land. We will do that to a certain extent. Temporary measures to keep our elderly safe is honorable.


----------



## dixiecutter

Post deleted. More careful next time not to Judge the heart. Discernment is one thing, but that's not how my comment read.


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## NCHillbilly

dixiecutter said:


> Post deleted. More careful next time not to Judge the heart. Discernment is one thing, but that's not how my comment read.


There was nothing really wrong with your post.


----------



## Israel

NCHillbilly said:


> One question, in plain English: How much use are dead disciples?



I thank God through Christ that you ask that question. Of what use...might be any disciple? Yet, they are so greatly desired.


----------



## NCHillbilly

Israel said:


> I thank God through Christ that you ask that question. Of what use...might be any disciple? Yet, they are so greatly desired.


So, it’s ok to kill or sicken and cause permanent lung damage people as long as you convert them first?
I don’t think Jesus rolled like that.


----------



## Israel

NCHillbilly said:


> So, it’s ok to kill or sicken and cause permanent lung damage people as long as you convert them first?
> I don’t think Jesus rolled like that.


 

I'm way more interested in how you believe Jesus rolled than any answer I might give.


----------



## Israel

dixiecutter said:


> Post deleted. More careful next time not to Judge the heart. Discernment is one thing, but that's not how my comment read.


Likewise mine.


----------



## Spotlite

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> So the police threatening to send in the National Guard is OK with you?
> 
> Forced church closures in violation of the 1st Amendment is a problem.  Do they have to put Christians in jail for it to be persecution in your mind?


Targeting just the church would be persecution. That’s not the case.


----------



## NCHillbilly

Israel said:


> I'm way more interested in how you believe Jesus rolled than any answer I might give.


I believe Jesus would not expect you to assemble together in his name in the middle of a disease pandemic, and put all your congregation at risk of getting sick or dying. Is that clear enough?


----------



## Ruger#3

The way of a fool _is_ right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.


----------



## Havana Dude

something is seriously wrong if one who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, cannot go 30 days without “fellowshipping”. The modern church is a man made institution. While following Gods commands mostly, it certainly isn’t a requirement to continue in faith.especially when this should most certainly be temporary.  I enjoy our pastors message every time he stands in the pulpit. A couple times a year, he loses me when he gets so deep into how things translate, but most times, I’m good. I go back to one of my other statements. I really think some folks should seriously evaluate WHY they actually go to church. I can tell you with zero doubt, when I go, I’m sitting among a bunch of sinners, including myself. I’m not there for their pleasure. I’m there because God desires us to be in his presence, and In my church, I feel his presence every time I go. This debate is really quite ridiculous.


----------



## 4HAND

Havana Dude said:


> something is seriously wrong if one who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, cannot go 30 days without “fellowshipping”. The modern church is a man made institution. While following Gods commands mostly, it certainly isn’t a requirement to continue in faith.especially when this should most certainly be temporary.  I enjoy our pastors message every time he stands in the pulpit. A couple times a year, he loses me when he gets so deep into how things translate, but most times, I’m good. I go back to one of my other statements. I really think some folks should seriously evaluate WHY they actually go to church. I can tell you with zero doubt, when I go, I’m sitting among a bunch of sinners, including myself. I’m not there for their pleasure. I’m there because God desires us to be in his presence, and In my church, I feel his presence every time I go. This debate is really quite ridiculous.


It is.
We really enjoy attending our church & are very involved. If we couldn't attend for a few weeks we would really miss it. I would especially miss our praise & worship (I'm one of the musicians) & our Pastor's sermons. 
However, the Church is the saints, not the building. God is in our hearts.
We worship him every day, or should, not just when we gather at our churches.


----------



## Madman

For some, worship goes beyond fellowship, the very heart is the sacraments, especially the Mass.

But we will live through it, we are in the middle of Lent, what better time to withhold those things that are good for us in expectation of something better. Easter!


----------



## Israel

For some, the family of faith is the only family they have. The only family there is for them to have.

And I think some of you have brushed by a thing in mention that bears more than a passing consideration.

Others I believe make plain their stance that the "church", such as it is, is no more than the Rotary...allowed (under normal circumstances) to meet where and how they choose, much as any club might find right of assembly, supposedly, under the Constitution. I can't dissuade them from this, nor care to...if their only understanding of who and how the church may appear to them is to that persuasion. Maybe to them it's better than the Rotary, maybe worse, much as some might consider a gun club superior to a sewing circle. Churches are clubs for people who "like religion" much as gun clubs are for folks in love with Remingtons, Rugers, and Colts, et al.

But to the first, who have some sense of the church but contrast it sharply against what may be called the "modern church" or to the more particular "modern American church", there in_ that contrasting_ is disclosed...perhaps against what is commonly called, and/or experienced as "the church"...a difference.

For them it could appear, not unlike the above mentioned..."the church looks little more than like a club"...but inwardly they have a persuasion it has never been meant to be so, is not called to be so, and unlike the above mentioned are not ready to abandon the notion/idea/conception of church to merely that...believing there could, and perhaps should be...more to it than that. There is a notion of church vs the more common taste of how this is expressed, and experienced as little more than club, and that for them remains unsettling.


Good.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

Closing churches while keeping Walmart open is the assertion that no one really needs to go to church.

Yet Jesus said, "Man does not live by bread along, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."

For sure, every individual should be free to stay home, and every church should be at liberty to close.  But what of the liberty of churches that choose to open their doors and of people who want (or perhaps even need) to attend?


----------



## hummerpoo

I can recall, somewhat fondly, when Church services were canceled because of unusually heavy snow.
The battery powered crank telephones, on party lines, were put to good use, and tractors were used by closer neighbors to visit those with particular need.


----------



## Spotlite

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Closing churches while keeping Walmart open is the assertion that no one really needs to go to church.
> 
> Yet Jesus said, "Man does not live by bread along, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."
> 
> For sure, every individual should be free to stay home, and every church should be at liberty to close.  But what of the liberty of churches that choose to open their doors and of people who want (or perhaps even need) to attend?


I don’t think liberty / freedom  / rights are at stake or even part of what’s happening here. If this is what needs to be done to help prevent the spread of this virus, you shouldn’t feel like those liberties are at stake right now. Think about you having the flu - are you going to attend anyway?? Why wouldn’t you?


----------



## Israel

We are observers of thoughts. Whether within ourselves or delivered to us from the _outside, _we either dismiss and discard, argue against, judge and condemn, or accept and seek a better understanding of their meaning and nature. Their source.

I am not convinced any man has ability, either in himself and/or especially others to change source. That very heart where these originate and _bubble up. _They _come to mind, _and there are judged to either rejection, broadcast...or a keeping for better understanding. Do I speak like a fool? God knows...

But I am also convinced that more than anything...source is always most active, even in (and _even if not recognized in_) the consciousness...those upper floors which_ always rely _upon the foundation...for the foundation _alone_ is _always bearing_ the whole of the house.

But as Paul was free to express opinion, this is no more than my own.

And I am not persuaded I am the only one to have had this experience of sensing, how that a matter may come to mind in the vaguest manner, almost like a trail of smoke that impends toward a substance...but the substance is not clear...yet. We may find patience in and with it. God knows, we may not.

And each decides whether this to them is only smoke, a cloud or plume rising from another's basement with no substance, flowing out my mouth window against which their own windows should be closed...and if need be...dismissed and/or judged and condemned as mere smoke...out their mouth window. Some may say "it is toxic...lock down against any and all of it".

Where each, or any of us is in regards to holding the Lord's words as true substance, God knows. How much any have been convinced "the words I speak to you are spirit and they are life" is of the Spirit's work...and we are...precisely where we are in any and all of that.

And even if not convinced of one another where any, all, or some of our words originate, as disciples we generally agree "the Lord knows...His words are true substance...He does not speak from vain imaginings". He doesn't talk about...what He does not know.

I think of this exchange.

Jesus said:

Did not Moses give you the law, and _yet_ none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? 


The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

How quickly was decided the source of Jesus' words! Men, not knowing the thoughts and intents of their own hearts that had not been disclosed to them yet manifestly (but which Jesus plainly saw) from that ignorance of their own selves...so swiftly judged the source of His.

There are many clever ways found on the path to kill a man long before mallet and nails are taken up; seeking to expose him as evil, as loony tunes, as ignorant and/or unworthy of audience, twisting words, etc. We have all been saved from a place expert in schooling in cleverness...where words are used to hide intents and motives, and where a man can convince himself of his own lies.

When on trial some said of Him:

We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands. 
But neither so did their witness agree together. 

And although it is too easy to judge those, who, perhaps to us appear easily villainous, it is nonetheless sobering (if we can be so sobered) that disciples may be no less found in resistance. Thanks be to God for the grace of forbidding too much excursion against the Lord! How much grief we are saved from! What grace abides!

Nevertheless when told, not hinted at, not suggested _as what might happen:_

Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Disciples sought to make opposition each declaring that though it might be true of others...it would surely not be they, themselves.

What a terrible place the Lord brings us to! Agreement means I must see myself in a certain light, a light I would never choose for myself...as forsaker! But disagreement means...quite plainly I state..."Jesus you do not know that of which you speak!"

I testify how much may be learned in the latter stance...to bring one to the former, rather to appear as what one prefers not, than to learn the harshest of lessons (which without grace cannot be borne!) of "Jesus, you _may know_ very well...except for me, and what I am, of all, like"

The world has not become kinder to the Lord Jesus Christ. The world will not only tolerate...but to whatever extent...encourage, by its oversight, the practice of religion. To suit its own purposes. 

But, the faith of the Son of God, which testifies all its works are evil...it will not abide. It simply cannot, and will not...for He testifies plainly of its foundation as corrupt (yes even the most sublimely recorded and lofty appearing of its laws). And of it soon passing...already well underway.

The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. 

(And some may say "Who is hating you?...you have a devil, or are loony tunes)

But if one is found in an enviable place...appearing as to what of themselves, they could have never preferred...but are forced to it by a stronger hand and word than their own, they cannot deny this_ is not of their own doing._..it has been through (probably)...many resistances and oppositions, misunderstandings...and even at times speaking contrary...till an authority is recognized unimpeachable and unyielding, and they are broken upon that rock. _Where such grace is found to not perish._


If the world hates you, understand that it hated Me first.

God knows how much we would all like to get it right "the first time"...to appear as one who can say I have always done the will of God, or even "Oh, but now _I finally_ get it!" And now finally..."every thing I think, do or say is the Lord"...(especially as to discerning all my brother's motives)...may we come to know a liberty even Paul came to know...where less harm may be inflicted by allowance of grace...to hold an opinion.

"But to the rest I *say*, *not* the *Lord*, ..."

But, this is all, only my opinion. But I have found this more than useful:


Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. 

If a man is appointed to shout warning, he will not be able to resist it...and God will show plainly all source.


----------



## The Original Rooster

My final post on this thread and I won't be reading any more of it: If you are planning to attend church despite requests that you do not attend large gatherings, be sure you are doing it because the Lord called you to and not because of the sin of pride of not wanting the government telling you what to do. 

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Proverbs 10:19 In the multitude of words sin is not lacking,
But he who restrains his lips is wise


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

RoosterTodd said:


> My final post on this thread and I won't be reading any more of it: If you are planning to attend church despite requests that you do not attend large gatherings, be sure you are doing it because the Lord called you to and not because of the sin of pride of not wanting the government telling you what to do.



Do Christians need a word from the Lord separate from Scripture to obey God rather than men?

If the government tells us not to own guns, or discipline our children, or train our children in God's ways and Biblical truth, is that enough?  A Christian needs a unique calling to obey the Bible?

All the Christians I know who are continuing to meet take great care in obeying government authorities within their appropriate sphere.  We pay the taxes we owe, we don't do drugs, we "fear God and honor the king."  But Jesus' instruction was to "Give to Caesar what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's." 

Does corporate worship belong to Caesar or to God? 

Attended church this morning in a building with room for about 500.  I couldn't tell if there were over 50 or not, since some were seated in a balcony I couldn't see.  In any case, we had no way of knowing how many would be there.  The church had given more than ample instructions on social distancing and respiratory hygiene in their mid-week communications.  It was a great worship service, both the worship and the preaching.  My wife and were both blessed to be there.  There was more than adequate room to honor the 6 ft distance recommended by government, and it was the best example of social distancing and respiratory hygiene that I've ever seen.  100 times safer than Walmart.

And there was ample space in some areas to be 25-50 feet from other households.

As a dad setting an example for my young adult sons, my choice is to stay home out of the fear of man, or to attend church.  Without any indication that attendance is actually unsafe or putting anyone at risk, I plan to attend again soon and bring my sons with me when they are home from college.  We're a family of scientists.  Among our household is an epidemiologist who has worked at the CDC.  We are in agreement that under the current conditions, our family attending this church poses no threat to anyone.


----------



## BeerThirty

I'm still going to heaven even though I decided not to physically go to church. That's the beautiful grace of our God. I'm not the kind of Christian who is going to split hairs on every single decision I make.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

BeerThirty said:


> I'm still going to heaven even though I decided not to physically go to church. That's the beautiful grace of our God. I'm not the kind of Christian who is going to split hairs on every single decision I make.



The question for Christians is whether they'll split hairs when other Christians exercise liberty differently from them.  I've been more shamed, criticized, and falsely accused for my decision to attend church this week and assertions that many churches in rural America can be attended safely than for anything else since moving back to the South in 2013.


----------



## Mexican Squealer

Lord, help you.


----------



## Israel

"You know what else besides 'I told you so' He ain't gonna have to say when He comes bustin' through them clouds?"

No, Pa, what?

Anything at all, son.



“Some of these days, there are just going to be two people alive on this earth as far as you are concerned...
You and the Lord.”

Rolfe Barnard


----------



## Israel

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> The question for Christians is whether they'll split hairs when other Christians exercise liberty differently from them.  I've been more shamed, criticized, and falsely accused for my decision to attend church this week and assertions that many churches in rural America can be attended safely than for anything else since moving back to the South in 2013.


Brother...well, is there such a thing as the law of primacy?

Well if'n there ain't I"m gunna make one up

Means somethin's always gotta be at da top o' any list. (Semper Fi gotta good handle on dat)

But, actually, after I finished that first sentence I wrote I asked myself "ain't The Google smart enuff to know?"
Looky heah!



> The *law of primacy* in persuasion, otherwise known as a *primacy* effect, as postulated by Frederick Hansen Lund in 1925 holds that the side of an issue presented first will have greater effectiveness in persuasion than the side presented subsequently.



Even though that doesn't support at all that thing I made up, it sure supports something else. "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"...and the subsequent (some days later) formation of clay-man. What came first is greater in persuasion (hey, this is perfect!) than the weakness exposed through the fall of the clay man. (hey this is subject to falling and failing!) And all clay man has to do_ is not come up with anything_ except find agreement in this truth..."I'm the weaker model!" (And if he _tries to resist _that truth...he only proves it!)

I'll leave all the spiritual permutations of conclusion to any (other) clay man that cares to consider that. And let him discover, if he can, the effects of that persuasion.


Regardless, I see you count it all joy. Still _plugging away_ on Lake Lanier. Not caring I'm gonna guess...what they call you out there, even if they find you _trolling._

Distance and present logistics prevent me from joining you, but I think about it. I don't know much about the crappie population there, but if there is one (The Google could probably be smart enuff again!) I sure like to think about reducing it some, or attempting to.

(Hey how far off from the OP does this guy wanna get?)

Well, to be honest...I don't find much of anything that is not related...somehow...(even in what may seem the most peculiar ways) to a central thesis, an immutable foundation, the very nexus of all things in creation, seen and unseen... the Glory of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There's just no escaping it. How everything is set to that...even if I were to try to avoid it (if it could be, or even could be attempted)...for by intentionally (as I might view my ability to intend) to avoid a thing...I only serve to make that thing more plain...by proving it _yet the central thing_ (still! and always!)
...I am trying to avoid. The Glory of Jesus Christ, is simply inescapable. It can't be diminished, nor can it be added to. Nor can it be moved from centrality. 

And, Clay man ends up being formed, actually, _quite perfectly_...to serving this.

Run from it, or to it (of little matter)...it remains central, around which all activity _is ordained_.


Happy fishing!

In every sense.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

Israel said:


> Regardless, I see you count it all joy. Still _plugging away_ on Lake Lanier. Not caring I'm gonna guess...what they call you out there, even if they find you _trolling._



Everyone I've encountered on Lanier since COVID-19 became a thing has been very cool about it - fewer negative interactions than last year so far in spite of heavier traffic.  But the Lord called me to have a fishing ministry, so I do not intend to stop.  At the time, I was hoping to grow my ministry service within the church, but the Elders and my other closest advisers confirmed that the Lord was calling me to have a fishing ministry.  And the COVID-19 thing has created increased demand for fishing trips as well as increased viewship on the related YouTube channel.  Some of my detractors have criticized my online ministry efforts, thinking everyone should prefer face-to-face ministries.  I've just tried to do what the Lord was telling me in the moment, and here we are.  The fishing ministry reaches over 1000 people online for every guest who steps in the boat.

Late last year, my wife and I also felt the Lord was telling us to shift our worship ministry from mostly leading in-person public worship to mostly online.  This was a difficult word to obey.  "But Lord ..."  We bristled for a few weeks and then obeyed.  The Lord knew what 2020 would hold, while simply though everything would continue as in 2019.

Having done lots and lots of internet ministry (as well as teaching of math and physics), I am well acquainted with both the opportunities and limitations.  Younger audiences are easily distracted and likely to have other windows open in their browsers.  Messages need to be short and to the point.  Nuanced two-way communication is much harder.  Planting seeds and watering them is more straight forward than "closing the deal" and completing the harvest.  The final steps of true repentance and change are almost always done in person.

I also recognize my personal limitations.  Scripture says, "Let every matter be confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses."  Hard to do in internet ministry or fishing with someone.  Most churches have folks who do a great job being the second and third witnesses and folks much more gifted than I am at "closing the deal."  My online and fishing ministries may be moving forward, but I won't kid myself into believing that inviting a seeker to an online church service can be as effective as inviting them to "come and see" in person.  Together with setting a good example for my sons, this is why I am so interested in finding nearby churches that are still welcoming attendance in-person.  At first, I thought that "smaller gatherings" might provide a path forward.  But I discovered a lot of those have been cancelled also.


----------



## Browning Slayer

NCHillbilly said:


> One question, in plain English: How much use are dead disciples?


Their 10% will be missed much more.


----------



## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> Brother...well, is there such a thing as the law of primacy?
> 
> Well if'n there ain't I"m gunna make one up
> 
> Means somethin's always gotta be at da top o' any list. (Semper Fi gotta good handle on dat)
> 
> But, actually, after I finished that first sentence I wrote I asked myself "ain't The Google smart enuff to know?"
> Looky heah!
> 
> 
> 
> Even though that doesn't support at all that thing I made up, it sure supports something else. "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"...and the subsequent (some days later) formation of clay-man. What came first is greater in persuasion (hey, this is perfect!) than the weakness exposed through the fall of the clay man. (hey this is subject to falling and failing!) And all clay man has to do_ is not come up with anything_ except find agreement in this truth..."I'm the weaker model!" (And if he _tries to resist _that truth...he only proves it!)
> 
> I'll leave all the spiritual permutations of conclusion to any (other) clay man that cares to consider that. And let him discover, if he can, the effects of that persuasion.
> 
> 
> Regardless, I see you count it all joy. Still _plugging away_ on Lake Lanier. Not caring I'm gonna guess...what they call you out there, even if they find you _trolling._
> 
> Distance and present logistics prevent me from joining you, but I think about it. I don't know much about the crappie population there, but if there is one (The Google could probably be smart enuff again!) I sure like to think about reducing it some, or attempting to.
> 
> (Hey how far off from the OP does this guy wanna get?)
> 
> Well, to be honest...I don't find much of anything that is not related...somehow...(even in what may seem the most peculiar ways) to a central thesis, an immutable foundation, the very nexus of all things in creation, seen and unseen... the Glory of the Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> There's just no escaping it. How everything is set to that...even if I were to try to avoid it (if it could be, or even could be attempted)...for by intentionally (as I might view my ability to intend) to avoid a thing...I only serve to make that thing more plain...by proving it _yet the central thing_ (still! and always!)
> ...I am trying to avoid. The Glory of Jesus Christ, is simply inescapable. It can't be diminished, nor can it be added to. Nor can it be moved from centrality.
> 
> And, Clay man ends up being formed, actually, _quite perfectly_...to serving this.
> 
> Run from it, or to it (of little matter)...it remains central, around which all activity _is ordained_.
> 
> 
> Happy fishing!
> 
> In every sense.



Having been accused of being — perhaps identified as — one who works out too many details, I have found that philosophical Foundationalism aptly describes the system that you speak of.  It sometimes helps to identify such a thing so as to improve its application.  Having identified it, it can then be reduced back to an appropriate simple statement that entails the details.  For me it has become:
theologically—In the beginning God.
philosophically—It's all about God.
Intuitively, I think they can be combined; maybe someday.
Maybe "In the beginning God, therefore, It's all about God".

Nah, surely that's too easy.

Simplest description of Foundationalism I've seen.
https://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_foundationalism.html


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

It's encouraging to see that Gov. Kemp has left a way for churches of all sizes to stay open, as long as specific social distancing guidelines are met.  

This is encouraging given some of the things I am seeing in exclusively online presentations, including sermon re-runs, pre-recorded messages, insertions of commercials both by internet providers and ministries themselves, a shift from live music to canned music, an increased focus in asking for money, interruptions in connectivity, and content sensoring from streaming services such as YouTube and Facebook.

I understand not every church can maintain live music for an online service, but many of the larger churches can.  Further, I fail to see any reason why any church cannot maintain honest attempts at a live preaching in an online format.  Most weeks, I search out and watch 5-10 hours of pre-recorded video content.  Is new, live content too much to ask for on Sunday mornings and Wed nights?


----------



## j_seph

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> It's encouraging to see that Gov. Kemp has left a way for churches of all sizes to stay open, as long as specific social distancing guidelines are met.
> 
> This is encouraging given some of the things I am seeing in exclusively online presentations, including sermon re-runs, pre-recorded messages, insertions of commercials both by internet providers and ministries themselves, a shift from live music to canned music, an increased focus in asking for money, interruptions in connectivity, and content sensoring from streaming services such as YouTube and Facebook.
> 
> I understand not every church can maintain live music for an online service, but many of the larger churches can.  Further, I fail to see any reason why any church cannot maintain honest attempts at a live preaching in an online format.  Most weeks, I search out and watch 5-10 hours of pre-recorded video content.  Is new, live content too much to ask for on Sunday mornings and Wed nights?



I posted these elsewhere as well but if you are interested

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="



" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="



" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

j_seph said:


> I posted these elsewhere as well but if you are interested
> 
> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="
> 
> 
> 
> " frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
> 
> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="
> 
> 
> 
> " frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>



Saw those in the other thread.  The display would be cleaner if you just paste in the link (URL only) as a link without pasting in all the embed code.  I do this by selecting "Copy video url" rather than "Copy embed code" when I right click on the video in Youtube.  Only the video will be displayed in GON without the extra code in your posts.  It will look like this:


----------



## Israel

Since from the beginning of the OP I have believed LDB more concerned with government overreach than with many of the matters of which he has been accused, it was interesting to read this:

https://lasvegassun.com/news/2020/mar/25/nevada-governor-bars-malaria-drugs-for-coronavirus/

It is true this particular point appears to have little to do with seeking any special impact upon the church. It is a broad ban. And as such some might easily deride and say "I see no boogeyman hiding behind this coming for the church".

Nevertheless, in all matters, regardless of whether one sees threat (immediate or more far off) the issue of authority is something every believer must come to consider. And you would be wise to ask "by what authority do I, can I (Israel) even say that?"

Because everywhere we go, in every situation, disposition, and even thought of our mind...we are going to touch authority. Authorship, origins, and their power. And I cannot speak except as a fool to what has not yet touched the truth of this:

"All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me" Jesus the Messiah. The Christ. The Lord.

The Lord's governing authority is absolute, unassailable, eternal, unchanged and unchanging. It is in all unreliant and independent of our agreement, independent of our making, and any recognition of it is not given to us as appeal for support. It is all and only given as gift, and will never be less (and can certainly_ never be more!_). To be given to see this Ruling Head is our salvation. To acknowledge His complete Sovereignty as Lord is our confession. To come to know Him our only true joy and pleasure.

There is no hypocrisy in Him, no presumption found in Him, no attempt at "grasping at" or overreach revealed in Him. And because He is pure in consistency of word and deed and holding absolute power, all _else_ is judged through Him and by Him. He is the true that both exposes and reduces the false to no thing. Unshakable, His drawing near exposes all that can be...to shaking.

We too are encouraged in and through Him to unshakable-ness and His steadfastness, even if, for whatever time appointed, it is allowed to appear as obstinacy...till that lesson be complete. Here the apostle's words ring so very clear and true

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;

Broken rebels need no explanation. How that the Lord is supremely patient with His own, who while even at times confessing Him, may be found stiff necked, resistant, and like a bucking horse taking pride while yet boasting of their rider. This is marvelous. And His marvelous work. To stay on. To endure. To abide. Not in spite, but despite.

We may love the notion of compliance, of submission, but when the Reigning One takes the reins we may discover a very clear difference between notions and exercise, that prior have never had a more clear distinction.

"If you know these things, happy are you if you do them"

Whatever lag we may discover between our knowing and our doing is where we come to learn of abounding grace and its all sufficiency. And how, by such grace salvation is made known to us. And how, it is _only such grace revealed; _that bringing to any form of consistency in what we both say, and, _if so_ found made able to do...is all of owing to that grace. Again, broken rebels, and those_ in the breakers,_ need no explanation. We can never be smart enough, but only found _too smart_; even as our appearance to ourselves may be "too willing" till we are broken...and made just...willing.

Pressures, stressors, trials come to reveal. Things once in support are taken away, extraneous things that may hinder the recognition of nature, of essence, are removed. Distilling takes place...to a purity. What may have been once confused by appurtenances is suddenly stripped. Will the preacher still "love what he preaches" when he is stripped of hearers? Or, was it only love of preaching? (Every other bar stool in every pub I have ever frequented holds no less) Will he preach...precisely what may lead to his being deprived...of hearers? God knows.

Is Christ being preached...or are men only hearing the last meal of chicken and dumplings?

None of us need be contrarian. There is ample in the gospel for us to discover opposition, no longer mistaking _our being opposed_ to any confusing. Being obnoxious can land a disciple in jail for a season and a lesson. But so can (and I am more convinced) preaching the gospel...and the two men might meet there. And both may be in chains for the sake of the Lord's gospel, with the one being taught...by the one sent in to love the jailer. Christ having apprehended both. Made prisoners of them. Having taken captive...the captive.

Pressures are revealing. Men who once took the stage in proud profession of desire to serve, mattering not whether it be politicians or preachers...may be shown as merely loving and coveting the power of that stage. With never intent as they once sometimes piously professed. As matters now (or whenever) in their sight begin to eclipse what they once considered their source of power...each will be tempted...to overreach...some no doubt succumbing, others patiently learning to abide "in their lane"...even if, and when, that seems diminishing.

Our Lord Jesus Christ had all "at hand" ready, and able to be willingly provided of His Father...to lift Himself up and out of all that was prepared to reveal His weakness. Even to such brokenness that the Son of God would even cry out "Eloi, Eloi lama sabacthani" He refused...even in all lawfullness...to go beyond His assigning.

We may ask...what joy was His to see that made Him able to so endure?

For the joy set before Him...

For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

We, of all, should not be shocked to discover men scrambling...even to overreach of what they profess (we are a nation of LAWS! Is often proudly repeated), mistaking themselves as their own source of authority. (Don't you know I have power to kill you or let you go?)

Shaking and stripping away...are always taking place, and it is only grace that is shown toward what is being preserved that thinks this is "only sometimes happening". No, it is only sometimes...to be made more clear as always happening. But if we learn...let us not let go of this lesson, there is only one government unshaken, and unshakable. And its growth in us is always accompanied by our own knowing of shaking, how that what has lain behind we have falsely projected as what lies ahead, seeking security in that.

We are always men in the breakers, sent to touch a shore (for as long as God wills) that proudly boasts to the sea "I determine where you end".

I write in fear of the Lord to all that longs for what is being called "a return to normal" knowing I must be sifted no less in it. The very best of the world's normal is not what has been prepared for us, no matter how much now we may be found longing in return to it. Our normal...is what is always new to us, and this in no way despises the suffering of any seeking to endure through. And as such may even appear most grievous.

Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; _and_ them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.

If any of us be found being shaken...let us become weak toward one another, and not the one who has vain provocation of ministering despair through this trial:

Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

As each lays hold of that which we are called to lay hold, an unshakable Kingdom...we will find comfort both for ourselves...and life and health for ministry to one another as God allows. We can take lesson as need be in even what men see as hopeless terror...that touching one, another ten may be touched and so on.

We minister of spirit, unless we do not, and of such there is no knowing of bounds...near, or far. Prevailing both over time...and distance.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Israel said:


> I ask you to forgive me when I get stupid in my choice of words.



As to the quality there's nothing to forgive.  The quantity is where I have to reeeeeally humble myself, fast, and ask the Lord for help. 
The good news is I do credit you with my 70 lb weight loss.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

NCHillbilly said:


> One question, in plain English: How much use are dead disciples?




I think that depends of whether you are Catholic or not.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

Israel said:


> Since from the beginning of the OP I have believed LDB more concerned with government overreach than with many of the matters of which he has been accused ...
> 
> It is true this particular point appears to have little to do with seeking any special impact upon the church. It is a broad ban. And as such some might easily deride and say "I see no boogeyman hiding behind this coming for the church".



I've often heard churches referred to hospitals for the spiritually sick.  Walmart stays open, because food is a basic need.  Medical care facilities likewise remain open.  Have we accepted the assertion that no one really "needs" to go to church?  Is church really a "social gathering"?   I've always viewed it primarily about the vertical relationship with God the Father.

My primary concern is carrying out the Great Commission.  Let's face it, the devil is better at online discipleship than the church.  Pornhub will grow much more than the church during the COVID-19 closures.  The younger generation tend to lose focus much more quickly with online content.   Depending on how long the closures last, many local churches may not re-open, and those that do may not be able to keep their doors open for long.  

Most church goers are beginning to build habits of online attendance.  I expect a significant portion will not return to regular in-person attendance once church doors re-open.  If online attendance is OK during COVID-19, how are church leaders going to avoid seeming hypocritical if they assert in-person attendance is "better" afterward?  Church leaders who previously asserted that in-person attendance in a "real church" was is the better way to fulfill Hebrews 11:25 are already looking hypocritical in some eyes if they were quick to close their churches.

And what of tithing and giving?   Recessions almost always reduce giving in the American church.  It is also unclear what effect the expected long-term reduction in personal attendance may have, but I doubt it will be positive.

I do have some concern that the precedent of government closures of the church (and subsequent implication that churches need government permission to re-open) may be abused in the future to restrict gatherings of Christians.  Efforts to carry out the Great Commission should not need government permission.


----------



## Havana Dude

God says do not worry. Awful lot of worrying going on up in here.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Havana Dude said:


> God says do not worry. Awful lot of worrying going on up in here.



Yip.  Not a lot of confidence in "Thy Will be done."  Just a lot of "Thy Will won't be done without ME."


----------



## NCHillbilly

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I've often heard churches referred to hospitals for the spiritually sick.  Walmart stays open, because food is a basic need.  Medical care facilities likewise remain open.  Have we accepted the assertion that no one really "needs" to go to church?  Is church really a "social gathering"?   I've always viewed it primarily about the vertical relationship with God the Father.
> 
> My primary concern is carrying out the Great Commission.  Let's face it, the devil is better at online discipleship than the church.  Pornhub will grow much more than the church during the COVID-19 closures.  The younger generation tend to lose focus much more quickly with online content.   Depending on how long the closures last, many local churches may not re-open, and those that do may not be able to keep their doors open for long.
> 
> Most church goers are beginning to build habits of online attendance.  I expect a significant portion will not return to regular in-person attendance once church doors re-open.  If online attendance is OK during COVID-19, how are church leaders going to avoid seeming hypocritical if they assert in-person attendance is "better" afterward?  Church leaders who previously asserted that in-person attendance in a "real church" was is the better way to fulfill Hebrews 11:25 are already looking hypocritical in some eyes if they were quick to close their churches.
> 
> And what of tithing and giving?   Recessions almost always reduce giving in the American church.  It is also unclear what effect the expected long-term reduction in personal attendance may have, but I doubt it will be positive.
> 
> I do have some concern that the precedent of government closures of the church (and subsequent implication that churches need government permission to re-open) may be abused in the future to restrict gatherings of Christians.  Efforts to carry out the Great Commission should not need government permission.


Right now in Albany, there are 12 people dead, 173 confirmed cases, 35 people hospitalized, and 900 people awaiting tests results — and 90 of those are in the hospital. _Because ONE person with COVID went to a funeral._ And you want to keep gathering? That's crazy. I'm sure those folks who are dead and struggling for their lives right now could probably not care less about your worries of decreased church attendance post-corona. People are dying, and suffering. You don't seem to care as long as you can preach to them. And keep talking this foolishness about "government discrimination against Christians." I don't really understand how you get to that mindset. Most people value their lives and the lives of their loved ones more than a church service. And you think that's wrong?

This will be over at some point, and you can go back to what you were doing. But putting your whole community at risk of sickness and death because of your virtue signalling is not cool.


----------



## gordon 2

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I've often heard churches referred to hospitals for the spiritually sick.  Walmart stays open, because food is a basic need.  Medical care facilities likewise remain open.  Have we accepted the assertion that no one really "needs" to go to church?  Is church really a "social gathering"?   I've always viewed it primarily about the vertical relationship with God the Father.
> 
> My primary concern is carrying out the Great Commission.  Let's face it, the devil is better at online discipleship than the church.  Pornhub will grow much more than the church during the COVID-19 closures.  The younger generation tend to lose focus much more quickly with online content.   Depending on how long the closures last, many local churches may not re-open, and those that do may not be able to keep their doors open for long.
> 
> Most church goers are beginning to build habits of online attendance.  I expect a significant portion will not return to regular in-person attendance once church doors re-open.  If online attendance is OK during COVID-19, how are church leaders going to avoid seeming hypocritical if they assert in-person attendance is "better" afterward?  Church leaders who previously asserted that in-person attendance in a "real church" was is the better way to fulfill Hebrews 11:25 are already looking hypocritical in some eyes if they were quick to close their churches.
> 
> And what of tithing and giving?   Recessions almost always reduce giving in the American church.  It is also unclear what effect the expected long-term reduction in personal attendance may have, but I doubt it will be positive.
> 
> I do have some concern that the precedent of government closures of the church (and subsequent implication that churches need government permission to re-open) may be abused in the future to restrict gatherings of Christians.  Efforts to carry out the Great Commission should not need government permission.



Quote: I've often heard churches referred to hospitals for the spiritually sick. Unquote.

I'm a firm believer in that we say what we believe and mean what we believe. And especially from freudian slips where deep inside our wakeful pretensions we sleep truth and in unintentional moments of wakefulness we will now and then heave  up the truth.

The church as an asylum run by the patients is perhaps a good defense for the assembly in a court of law, but I don't  think this is what the fathers and mothers of the church had in mind. It also begs other fundamental questions which personally I have. Why would a church who ministers to invalids claim that itself was invalid? for example. Does not a church that ministers to people who like to play as a way of life and becomes a player to minister, risk the notion that church itself is playing church and is missing where the serious work of commissions would be seriously directed ?


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## j_seph

Do you put a raincoat on or carry an umbrella when you go outside and it is pouring rain? When your tires wear down to slicks, do you go get more tires or just keep driving on them in faith that they will go another 20,000 miles? The good Lord gave us means and a brain to use for a reason. It really disturbs me when a believer and a non-believer both throws out that just because you follow Jesus do you not trust him to keep you safe. I have yet to go see someone stand in the middle of active train tracks 24 hours to prove they would not get hit. Use the brain and the means God has provided through the guidence of the Holy Spirit. There have probably been more people in the last 2 weeks heard Gods words than there have been in a long time because of this. How many folks who have layed down and gave up have now found themselves turning back to the Father because of this?

Proverbs 3:21-26
21 My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion:


----------



## j_seph

The 2 videos I post have both been watched over 600 times. Normally that preached word by those 2 would only go out to approx. 50 to 75 people.


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## SemperFiDawg

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Efforts to carry out the Great Commission should not need government permission.



They don't and never have.  The problem isn't whether or not His Will will be done.  It most certainly will.  The problem most of us have is that we want be toe deep into The Great Commission for appearances and advertise to anyone who has an ear that we are neck deep, but when some little ripple comes along and threatens our creature comforts or hobbies we take our toe out and scream like we are being crucified. Yet those who are literally being killed for their beliefs like the 11 who were beheaded on Christmas Day in Nigeria, or Wang Yi a pastor in China who just got 9 years in prison, Pastor Han Chung-Ryeol who was stabbed to death, or Deacon Jang (15 years),  wellllllll,.... we don't talk about them.  Wonder why?

Oh, and btw, non of those had the governments permission to obey God's calling.  I guess they figured they didn't need it.  Seems it all comes down to one's priorities.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

NCHillbilly said:


> Right now in Albany, there are 12 people dead, 173 confirmed cases, 35 people hospitalized, and 900 people awaiting tests results — and 90 of those are in the hospital. _Because ONE person with COVID went to a funeral._ And you want to keep gathering? That's crazy. I'm sure those folks who are dead and struggling for their lives right now could probably not care less about your worries of decreased church attendance post-corona. People are dying, and suffering. You don't seem to care as long as you can preach to them. And keep talking this foolishness about "government discrimination against Christians." I don't really understand how you get to that mindset. Most people value their lives and the lives of their loved ones more than a church service. And you think that's wrong?
> 
> This will be over at some point, and you can go back to what you were doing. But putting your whole community at risk of sickness and death because of your virtue signalling is not cool.



Just a note.  South Korea originally contained their first 30 cases which was awesome.  Probably no country in the world could have done a better job.  Problem was there was a '31' out there that no one knew about.  31 ended up being a super transmitter and that 1 person wound up infecting thousands and it went from there.


----------



## NCHillbilly

SemperFiDawg said:


> Just a note.  South Korea originally contained their first 30 cases which was awesome.  Probably no country in the world could have done a better job.  Problem was there was a '31' out there that no one knew about.  31 ended up being a super transmitter and that 1 person wound up infecting thousands and it went from there.


1 is all it takes. And he/she may be on the pew beside you.


----------



## Donal

During my life time, the church, as an organization, has become a tool to create and maintain an income stream for the hierarchy and beaucrats of the church.  I f you want to find GOD, go the woods.  If you want fellowship, join a church.


----------



## hummerpoo

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yip.  Not a lot of confidence in "Thy Will be done."  Just a lot of "Thy Will won't be done without ME."


I don't know what it *IS* but it SEEMS just as you say.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Donal said:


> During my life time, the church, as an organization, has become a tool to create and maintain an income stream for the hierarchy and beaucrats of the church.



That's certainly NOT true for all churches,  probably not for most.



> If you want to find GOD, go the woods.



And though close, neither is this.  

If you want to find God, you don't need to GO anywhere.  Where ever you are, just reach out.  He's there.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

NCHillbilly said:


> 1 is all it takes. And he/she may be on the pew beside you.



From what I've seen in N Ga, more likely to be at the gun counter beside you, in the checkout line behind you, in the shooting lane next to you, or at the boat ramp beside you.

In the past couple weeks, I've seen much better adherence to social distancing rules in church than at the gun counter.  Should we close down gun shops?  Likewise with checkout lines.  Should we close down Walmart?  Likewise with gun ranges.  Should we close down gun ranges?  Likewise with boat ramps.  Close them down?

In the relevant county, I don't think anything I've seen at the gun counters, ranges, or boat ramps was actually a risk of transmitting COVID-19, so I am in no way suggesting closing these down.  Something does need to be done about Walmart and other retail spaces, and I think this is starting (but it is on the late side.)  

But my point is that it seems inconsistent to want to keep the gun counters and boat ramps open and close the churches if the social distancing is actually better in church.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> From what I've seen in N Ga, more likely to be at the gun counter beside you, in the checkout line behind you, in the shooting lane next to you, or at the boat ramp beside you.



This is pretty dang disturbing on a number of levels.  For someone that professes such concerned about others spiritual health, it appears you have none for their physical health.  Personally I have no concern over MY health, but I am very concerned that I could carry and transmit it to others.  That's why I'm trying to limit my contact.  It seems the moral thing to do regardless of one's religious or political convictions.


----------



## Israel

Fear, faith, and presumption.

An interesting thing I find in the matter of the cross is only God recognizes its taking up.

The Pharisees presumed "this guy is getting what he deserves...even what _in God_ is our right to impose." (But they didn't, did they?) They turned a brother over to the world for disposition. Do any understand that when the high priest tore his garments (which was forbidden) he surrendered through his own disobedience that place of authority to judge?
How can one man...in disobedience, think he can judge another...as disobedient blasphemer? But O! what a show! "Look how bad this Jesus is! I rend my garments to show I cannot bear such evil _in my presence_!" Clap clap clap clap. (Yet God sees...the law you think you uphold against Him, to judge Him, is it not the very same law that tells you not to rend your garments?)

Fear. Need anything be said about even the disciples? I can't judge them surely. Yep, it looked like Jesus was dead...and no hope. The best that could be done was just go to his tomb and in love, clean up the body. There's no shame to that, no recrimination, (and it was even such love that put one foot in front of the other on that path to hear an angel's speaking). Maybe we might all face that in some way..."I _have loved _you Lord...but my heart is broken now because I do not see you..."

Dare any revile? "your faith is too small!...Jesus told us He would rise!" Really? He surely did...but who heard? Who heard to the point of not locking the doors against the Jews for fear of them? "Yikes...what they did to Him, they may do to us!"

Yet...Jesus comes!

Did they have such boldness as He could not resist appearing to such staunch followers?

Was their fear too great...repulsive even, so that He would be deterred?

Yet...Jesus comes! To His own. He knows His own.

Faith. It may always cause us to appear the fool. Or the over-stepper. Yet, it is not that every foolish over-stepper may be of the faith of the Son of God. (the seven sons of Sceva learned something about "using" that name)


Who counts their own life forfeit for the Lord's sake? 

Is it the one who says he does? 
Is it the one who hides behind the barred door?
Is it the one who may even appear as "not submitting to governments" by hiding Jews behind a false wall?

Or is it only the one God knows?

Is it enough to any of us that God knows?

If not...then what could ever be sufficient?


----------



## NCHillbilly




----------



## Israel

NCHillbilly said:


> View attachment 1009144





NCHillbilly said:


> View attachment 1009144


Raise all who are His.


----------



## NCHillbilly

Israel said:


> Raise all who are His.


OK. Personally, I would prefer for me and my family to stay normally alive a while longer. If it's worth dying to you to go to church, stay away from my family.


----------



## transfixer

NCHillbilly said:


> OK. Personally, I would prefer for me and my family to stay normally alive a while longer. If it's worth dying to you to go to church, stay away from my family.



     I agree,    for two counties that I know of in Georgia,  Carroll county and Bartow county,  a large portion of the positive cases have been traced back to a church in each of those counties,  First case in Rome,Ga was in a choir in a church in Bartow,  others in that same choir and church have subsequently tested positive,     the majority of the cases in Carroll county have been traced to both a church and a group of people celebrating St Pats day in the Irish bred pub in Carrollton,  

in this day and time if the Pastors are intent on not closing the church,  when they could simply have services and post them on youtube,   I'd question the motives of the pastors,   I know they can't pass the collection baskets on youtube.


----------



## NCHillbilly

transfixer said:


> I agree,    for two counties that I know of in Georgia,  Carroll county and Bartow county,  a large portion of the positive cases have been traced back to a church in each of those counties,  First case in Rome,Ga was in a choir in a church in Bartow,  others in that same choir and church have subsequently tested positive,     the majority of the cases in Carroll county have been traced to both a church and a group of people celebrating St Pats day in the Irish bred pub in Carrollton,
> 
> in this day and time if the Pastors are intent on not closing the church,  when they could simply have services and post them on youtube,   I'd question the motives of the pastors,   I know they can't pass the collection baskets on youtube.


Amen!


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

SemperFiDawg said:


> This is pretty dang disturbing on a number of levels.  For someone that professes such concerned about others spiritual health, it appears you have none for their physical health.  Personally I have no concern over MY health, but I am very concerned that I could carry and transmit it to others.  That's why I'm trying to limit my contact.  It seems the moral thing to do regardless of one's religious or political convictions.



My family has reduced our social interactions with others by over 90%.  Together with careful social distancing (6 ft as recommended) and respiratory hygiene, there is no need for everyone to become like "The Boy in the Plastic Bubble."  Others are more at risk from me having a heart attack while driving to church than from me transmitting COVID-19 given all the care being taken.  I even wore gloves yesterday when filling up my boat with gas.  No need to hide inside in rural North Georgia.


----------



## Israel

In regards to contagion...or what the believer understands as the _already_ ubiquitous flesh and "works of it" (the flesh) to which all have already been exposed, by putting on Christ a thing is accomplished.


Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.


Our PPE is so often not that we may think we do "good"...but to keep us from doing harm.

Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life;


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

One local church has announced their intent for the pastor and worship leader to play and preach from the church roof, while attendees remain in their cars and watch while tuning in to a specified FM radio station to hear the music and preaching.

Is this enough social distancing?  I am much encouraged by a local church determined to find ways to meet while exceeding all social distancing guidelines.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Others are more at risk from me having a heart attack while driving to church than from me transmitting COVID-19 given all the care being taken.



I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall you stating you had a PhD.......and if so maybe that would explain it, but that is patently false and may be the most ignorant thing I have heard this week, and that’s saying A LOT!!!  I will repeat for your sake.  South Korea initially contained their first 30 cases.  That borders on miraculous.  BUT there was a 31st case no one knew about.  That patient went on to become a super-spreader infecting thousands.  Do you NOT get that.


----------



## catchdogs

Bible says where two or more are gathered in my name so shall I be. Get you a bible and have service right in your house with your family . Sure you won’t get all the glory for being one of the brave folks for attending church  during a crisis or get a pat on the back from the preacher, but If praising god is your goal you can do that right at the house. I personally don’t see anything wrong with closing the church till this is over. God gave us the brains to use discretion on making decisions. Some folks just want attention .


----------



## Israel

catchdogs said:


> Bible says where two or more are gathered in my name so shall I be. Get you a bible and have service right in your house with your family . Sure you won’t get all the glory for being one of the brave folks for attending church  during a crisis or get a pat on the back from the preacher, but If praising god is your goal you can do that right at the house. I personally don’t see anything wrong with closing the church till this is over. God gave us the brains to use discretion on making decisions. Some folks just want attention .



Is there an assumption or a presumption in this?




> Sure you won’t get all the glory for being one of the brave folks for attending church  during a crisis or get a pat on the back from the preacher, but If praising god is your goal you can do that right at the house.



And please know that your last sentence may apply to me more than anyone you have ever met. God knows.



> Some folks just want attention .



Therefore, assume that I am the one your last sentence pertains to particularly. I have believed, have been further convinced, and am being even more convinced that I only live in the attention of someone toward me...and was even preserved through all of my unknowing of that...by that attention. But having been made aware I can _be nowhere else, _do not doubt _I now need to know _that attention_, _its having created a desire in me surpassing all previously known desires.

I do not live without attention, and _none of us_ live apart from it. Do you believe your name is written on a hand? Do you believe a mother can forget the baby at her breast...but another is never without attention toward you?

Do you know even:

That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath. 

God help us. Attend to us, plainly.

The assumption that what gathers can only be being gathered for the glory of a preacher's pat on the back, or only some glory of man (Which man should always be a question), may in your sight be all and only what is seen. Are you sure? That only what does according to your understanding of _why it may do, _can only be for the glory of _mere men?_ 

Final answer? 

Phone a friend?


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

catchdogs said:


> Bible says where two or more are gathered in my name so shall I be. Get you a bible and have service right in your house with your family . Sure you won’t get all the glory for being one of the brave folks for attending church  during a crisis or get a pat on the back from the preacher, but If praising god is your goal you can do that right at the house. I personally don’t see anything wrong with closing the church till this is over. God gave us the brains to use discretion on making decisions. Some folks just want attention .



If the Bible truths you state are true today, then they were true a year ago, and they will always be true.  I've often expressed the view that Hebrews 11:25 can be fulfilled outside of "formal" church meetings, and I've often managed my household accordingly.  Yet, I am now finding that churches that criticized my position and insisted on the superiority of in-person attendance in formal church services have been among the first to close.

Less than a year ago, I brought up the subject in this very forum, asking whether "Church attendance is required by Scripture?"  

I wrote:


_My view is that while attendance in a Bible believing and teaching church is certainly wise and advisable, it does not seem to be required by Scripture.

The oft cited "Do not give up meeting together" (Heb 10:25) can be satisfied with gatherings with other Christians in other venues that may not be traditional American churches. Some examples might be home gatherings, fellowship over meals, and other places where Christians might meet together, study the Bible, worship, pray, and consider how to fulfill the great commission._

What should I make of the observation that many of the voices who roundly criticized my view at that time are now roundly criticizing my expression of disappointment seeing widespread church cancellations?  

Either formal church attendance is required by Scripture or it is not.  If it is not, we should never have criticized people of faith who satisfy the "meeting together" exhortation of Hebrews 11:25 in other ways.  And we should resolve never to criticize them again in the future.


----------



## 4HAND

Dear Lord. ?


----------



## Israel

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> If the Bible truths you state are true today, then they were true a year ago, and they will always be true.  I've often expressed the view that Hebrews 11:25 can be fulfilled outside of "formal" church meetings, and I've often managed my household accordingly.  Yet, I am now finding that churches that criticized my position and insisted on the superiority of in-person attendance in formal church services have been among the first to close.
> 
> Less than a year ago, I brought up the subject in this very forum, asking whether "Church attendance is required by Scripture?"
> 
> I wrote:
> 
> 
> _My view is that while attendance in a Bible believing and teaching church is certainly wise and advisable, it does not seem to be required by Scripture._
> 
> _The oft cited "Do not give up meeting together" (Heb 10:25) can be satisfied with gatherings with other Christians in other venues that may not be traditional American churches. Some examples might be home gatherings, fellowship over meals, and other places where Christians might meet together, study the Bible, worship, pray, and consider how to fulfill the great commission._
> 
> What should I make of the observation that many of the voices who roundly criticized my view at that time are now roundly criticizing my expression of disappointment seeing widespread church cancellations?
> 
> Either formal church attendance is required by Scripture or it is not.  If it is not, we should never have criticized people of faith who satisfy the "meeting together" exhortation of Hebrews 11:25 in other ways.  And we should resolve never to criticize them again in the future.



But brother...you take a away a man's opportunity to feel superior to his brother...and what you leavin' that poor poor possum wid?

LOL..."I'll outdo you wid my church goin'...and no less outdo you wid my non a' church going, to boot"


----------



## srb

Seems now all the services are streamed or some other tech ..

I enjoy the message and songs ...

Also  Sunday school is doing this!!!


----------



## Israel

Whiteboy said:


> This virus of a thread has run its course.


Well, some believe in resurrection.


Funny thread in the Political Forum "Fannin County Bans Outsiders".

(I been tryin' to perfect my accent so dis ex-Bronx boy don't get run outta his Georgia registered double wide mobile home paradise on a rail)

Seems road blocks and armed guards at several "border crossings" (read _interstates included) _are becoming a norm. They looking for unregistered or illegal guns? Drugs? Drunks? Nope...just "outta state plates" (esp. NY, NJ, and La)

One feller has got da presence of mind to "understand the logic"...but nevertheless..."question the legality".

Looks like dat whole matter of "states rights"...(but now even down to County Rights) is being re-litigated.

You think this thread is done? It ain't even got started.


----------



## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> Well, some believe in resurrection.
> 
> 
> Funny thread in the Political Forum "Fannin County Bans Outsiders".
> 
> (I been tryin' to perfect my accent so dis ex-Bronx boy don't get run outta his Georgia registered double wide mobile home paradise on a rail)
> 
> Seems road blocks and armed guards at several "border crossings" (read _interstates included) _are becoming a norm. They looking for unregistered or illegal guns? Drugs? Drunks? Nope...just "outta state plates" (esp. NY, NJ, and La)
> 
> One feller has got da presence of mind to "understand the logic"...but nevertheless..."question the legality".
> 
> Looks like dat whole matter of "states rights"...(but now even down to County Rights) is being re-litigated.
> 
> You think this thread is done? It ain't even got started.



There obviously being an opposing view, I would humbly suggest that in knowing that "there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are from God" and "rulers are not a terror to good conduct", and good conduct, in this case, is a question of the means of assembly vs. love of neighbor; and those who have favored love of neighbor here have been met with, in each case, what has been shown to be an arbitrary, or contrarian, position favoring proximal assembly, a fruitful path forward would seem to be a new path, which would seem to be best accomplished in a new thread.  Notwithstanding that choice, and looking to conduct which stems from, and the objective of which is, that God's glory be known by all, the Political Forum seems the appropiate venue.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

"Leave this way, get off this path, and stop confronting us with the Holy One of Israel."


----------



## hummerpoo

"Although the Lord has given you bread of privation and water of oppression, _He_, your Teacher will no longer hide Himself, but your eyes will behold your Teacher.  Your ears will hear a word behind you, “This is the way, walk in it,” whenever you turn to the right or to the left."


----------



## NE GA Pappy

well, the first pastor is arrested for continuing to hold church services when there is a gooberment order not to do so.

This is slippery ground in my opinion.  It isn't a far stretch for them to start shutting down church services for almost any perceived issue.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-pastor-arrest-church-service-coronavirus-tampa


----------



## Throwback

I guess these 60 people didn’t have any faith 

https://news.yahoo.com/choir-decided-ahead-rehearsal-now-023414705.html?soc_src=hl-viewer&soc_trk=fb


----------



## 4HAND

NE GA Pappy said:


> well, the first pastor is arrested for continuing to hold church services when there is a gooberment order not to do so.
> 
> This is slippery ground in my opinion.  It isn't a far stretch for them to start shutting down church services for almost any perceived issue.
> 
> https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-pastor-arrest-church-service-coronavirus-tampa


I agree.
I think it would be better for the Pastors to find alternative methods such as social media, drive up & stay in your cars, etc.

Bucking the system over a health hazard is totally different than bucking the system where .gov is mandating what you can or cannot preach/teach.


----------



## groundhawg

4HAND said:


> I agree.
> I think it would be better for the Pastors to find alternative methods such as social media, drive up & stay in your cars, etc.
> 
> Bucking the system over a health hazard is totally different than bucking the system where .gov is mandating what you can or cannot preach/teach.



Very true.  Do not believe he was doing this to serve his people but just to have his 15 minutes of fame and now has caused more harm than good.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

saw this and thought it was so funny.....


----------



## HuntDawg

Why arrest the Pastor? Does this Church not have a Board? I am sure I may ruffle some feathers, but do we not see this type stuff from Churches with one head honch rather than a Board of Elders?


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

4HAND said:


> I agree.
> I think it would be better for the Pastors to find alternative methods such as social media, drive up & stay in your cars, etc.



A local church had planned a drive up and stay in your car service last Sunday.  A government official told them they could not have the service in that format. 

This is NOT OK.


----------



## 4HAND

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> A local church had planned a drive up and stay in your car service last Sunday.  A government official told them they could not have the service in that format.
> 
> This is NOT OK.


Link?


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

4HAND said:


> Link?


----------



## 4HAND

Is this in Georgia?


----------



## hummerpoo

LittleDrummerBoy said:


>


I know who Rodney Howard Brown is;  
Who, and what church is this?


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

4HAND said:


> Is this in Georgia?



Yes, this is in Georgia.


----------



## 4HAND

10-4. I wondered if it was a church in Buford. I saw where they were planning "drive in" church last week.


----------



## hummerpoo

"The governor's office said, however, drive-in churches are OK if everyone practices social distancing and that no one is gathering in groups of 10 or more." 

https://www.11alive.com/article/new...vices/85-3cc79748-c28e-48c9-b941-85760e5fd474


----------



## 4HAND




----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

https://www.11alive.com/article/new...vices/85-3cc79748-c28e-48c9-b941-85760e5fd474

Apparently, there are conflicting messages being sent privately.


----------



## hummerpoo

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> https://www.11alive.com/article/new...vices/85-3cc79748-c28e-48c9-b941-85760e5fd474
> 
> Apparently, there are conflicting messages being sent privately.



Are you saying the Governor has taken one position publicly and a different one privately, or are you saying that the Governor's position has been stated by others to be different than his actual position?


----------



## 4HAND

What I posted was a screenshot of the news article.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

I wonder how that would work at our church.

We are holding car church, and the sheriff attends our church.  Wonder if he would arrest his own pastor?  Might be a bad thing, especially if the sheriff ever needed some counciling later on.  lol


----------



## transfixer

The  churches that seem to be resisting having services online appear to be more worried about collections than the health of their flock ,,,, if they hold the drive in services they can still have collections,  that pastor that was just arrested pretty much proved what his motivations were,   I realize there are preachers and pastors out there that do what they do as an honest calling,   but many are in it because of the financial benefits,,,  way too many in fact.


----------



## Madman

Our priest and bishop have a homily and several messages they post on line each week.

We all have prayer books and Bibles, morning prayer, evening prayer, and the daily office are prayed each day.

Husbands/fathers, can lead the services for their family in their own home. 

It is of no value, spiritually, for us to sit in the car.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

transfixer said:


> The  churches that seem to be resisting having services online appear to be more worried about collections than the health of their flock ,,,, if they hold the drive in services they can still have collections,  that pastor that was just arrested pretty much proved what his motivations were,   I realize there are preachers and pastors out there that do what they do as an honest calling,   but many are in it because of the financial benefits,,,  way too many in fact.



You are correct.  For some it's a financial problem, BUT most preachers don't resemble anything the general public either sees or portrays them as.  Some have a job that they work to support their family and preach in addition to that job.  Almost all live on the edge of poverty or lower middle class.  The glamorous one's on TV represent a tiny fraction of the total number.  For every 1 you see riding in a caddy, there's a 100 riding in beat up old GMCs or Camry's.  And not going to church is no excuse for not tithing.


----------



## groundhawg

SemperFiDawg said:


> You are correct.  For some it's a financial problem, BUT most preachers don't resemble anything the general public either sees or portrays them as.  Some have a job that they work to support their family and preach in addition to that job.  Almost all live on the edge of poverty or lower middle class.  The glamorous one's on TV represent a tiny fraction of the total number.  For every 1 you see riding in a caddy, there's a 100 riding in beat up old GMCs or Camry's.  And not going to church is no excuse for not tithing.



You are very correct.  The figure is now almost 80% of pastors who have a second job in order to support their families.


----------



## 4HAND

SemperFiDawg said:


> And not going to church is no excuse for not tithing.


Amen!!


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

hummerpoo said:


> Are you saying the Governor has taken one position publicly and a different one privately, or are you saying that the Governor's position has been stated by others to be different than his actual position?



I don't think I have a way of knowing which government official abused their power in the communication to the church that drive-in services were not allowed.  I do know this 1st Amendment violation resulted in at least one church cancelling their drive-in service.



transfixer said:


> The  churches that seem to be resisting having services online appear to be more worried about collections than the health of their flock ,,,, if they hold the drive in services they can still have collections,  that pastor that was just arrested pretty much proved what his motivations were,   I realize there are preachers and pastors out there that do what they do as an honest calling,   but many are in it because of the financial benefits,,,  way too many in fact.



I've seen an uptick in requests for money among the online services.  The services I've attended since "social distancing" started have not passed the plate, but they mentioned their electronic giving options.  They may have been concerned that passing the plate might spread the virus.



SemperFiDawg said:


> And not going to church is no excuse for not tithing.



We agree on this.



Whiteboy said:


> Gathering in groups of 10 or less (small group study) would probably be good for everyone, except for folks that just want to show up on Sunday morning and not be invested in the lives of others.  Might find out more than they want to know about the real needs of others and have to deal with some unfamiliar and unusual feelings.



The church we had been attending shut down all their small groups almost immediately after their main meeting.  Christians close to me also are seeing barriers to real participation in online small groups.  Watch the online service and send money is about the only ministry available from lots of churches - not much in terms of individualized attention for people with spiritual needs.  One local pastor describes the online only restriction as pastoring "with one hand tied behind my back."


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

Madman said:


> It is of no value, spiritually, for us to sit in the car.



Liberty has value.  Each church should be free to decide the potential value in drive-in meetings vs. on-line.  Also, allowing other venues to serve their base as long as people stay in their cars but banning drive-in meetings for churches is clearly singling out churches for different treatment.  Many drive-thru and drive-in eateries (Sonic, etc.) remain open in Georgia.

Further, the value in worship, teaching, and preaching depend strongly on how much attention the audience is paying. Having been the media guy for a couple churches, I've seen the audience retention data for online services.  Often, the online audience is of comparable size to those attending in person, BUT most of the online audience only watches about 25% of the service.  ADD is strong in the younger generation.  I expect those [;anning drive-in services know this also.  

Moreover, in the last few weeks, I've seen a lot of suboptimal things in online services - lots of commercials, requests for money, sermon re-runs, technical difficulties, pre-recorded music, etc.  I can see why a church might find the drive-in format appealing to its intended audience.  If you could choose between seeing your favorite band perform in person from your car or watch the concert online, which would you choose?  The biggest evangelical Sunday of the year is coming up on April 12, given that many unsaved people often attend church that day.  If a church feels like they can reach them better with a drive-in service, why deny them that option?

The goal of ministry is to get the message of Jesus to the audience.  Online ministry has some potential, but it also has some limitations.  The longer the cancellations last, the bigger the impact of these limitations will be.  Keeping the door open to drive-in services gives churches another tool in the toolbox to meet ongoing ministry needs as this thing stretches out longer from a couple weeks to what is looking to be at least 4-5 more weeks.


----------



## hummerpoo

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I don't think I have a way of knowing which government official abused their power in the communication to the church that drive-in services were not allowed.  I do know this 1st Amendment violation resulted in at least one church cancelling their drive-in service.



So you do not see the possibility the it was not a government official, with the power to set policy, that errored in transmitting that policy to the pastor who made the decision to cancel the service?  From the anonymous video we can identify "several mayors", a probable person with knowledge of the, or several, phone call(s), Phillip Beard (?), and the pastor himself, who could have errored to relaying the information.  We also know, if the news media got it right, that the Governor, I think wisely, left open the possibility of further restriction, based on local conditions, to the head of the Health Department districts, putting any one of 18 more people potentially in the mix.  From my experience with human communication, it seems to me that your position is based on unsupported assumption.

Reminds me of the old experiment of putting a group of people in a circle, one whispers something to the person next to him, it goes around the circle and comes back to the originator as an almost unrecognizable statement.


----------



## Madman

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Liberty has value.  Each church should be free to decide the potential value in drive-in meetings vs. on-line.  Also, allowing other venues to serve their base as long as people stay in their cars but banning drive-in meetings for churches is clearly singling out churches for different treatment.  Many drive-thru and drive-in eateries (Sonic, etc.) remain open in Georgia.
> 
> Further, the value in worship, teaching, and preaching depend strongly on how much attention the audience is paying. Having been the media guy for a couple churches, I've seen the audience retention data for online services.  Often, the online audience is of comparable size to those attending in person, BUT most of the online audience only watches about 25% of the service.  ADD is strong in the younger generation.  I expect those [;anning drive-in services know this also.
> 
> Moreover, in the last few weeks, I've seen a lot of suboptimal things in online services - lots of commercials, requests for money, sermon re-runs, technical difficulties, pre-recorded music, etc.  I can see why a church might find the drive-in format appealing to its intended audience.  If you could choose between seeing your favorite band perform in person from your car or watch the concert online, which would you choose?  The biggest evangelical Sunday of the year is coming up on April 12, given that many unsaved people often attend church that day.  If a church feels like they can reach them better with a drive-in service, why deny them that option?
> 
> The goal of ministry is to get the message of Jesus to the audience.  Online ministry has some potential, but it also has some limitations.  The longer the cancellations last, the bigger the impact of these limitations will be.  Keeping the door open to drive-in services gives churches another tool in the toolbox to meet ongoing ministry needs as this thing stretches out longer from a couple weeks to what is looking to be at least 4-5 more weeks.



We have beaten that horse.  My point was, spiritually it is of no value to go sit in the parking lot in my truck.  As stated, if you choose to stick your thumb in the local authority's eye then go ahead. 

If "keeping someone's attention" is dependent upon how good the media guy is at putting on a show perhaps that church should reevaluate what it calls worship. 

It is evident that you and I see worship in a totally different way.  You see it as entertainment, Holy Scripture calls it "liturgia" or the "work of the people".  In corporate worship God is the audience not me.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

Madman said:


> It is evident that you and I see worship in a totally different way.  You see it as entertainment, Holy Scripture calls it "liturgia" or the "work of the people".  In corporate worship God is the audience not me.



I don't see worship by Christians any differently.  But I do realize we are also called to evangelize, and I don't pretend there are not plenty of unsaved people in the audience.  The presentation needs to hold their attention well enough to get through to their hearts. 

The key thing that needs to happen for the lost to worship in spirit and in truth is that they need to be saved.  Since "faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the word of God" that need is best met by keeping them listening for the whole duration of the message.  Most online Christian services are not very good at keeping the unsaved listening for very long.

God is the audience of worship.  People are the audience in evangelism.  The work of the church includes both.

But one would also be in error to assume all music and singing is only to God even among Christians.  For the book says,

"And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."


----------



## Madman

As I said, we see worship very differently.  The church has never seen worship as a good place for the unbeliever.  How can they worship what they do not know?

We evangelize and bring them into the church not visa versa.


----------



## j_seph

I will say this, this is a fellow brother in Christ who has never done anything like this. His message has been viewed 2700 times, he has probably never preached to no more than 200 or so at one time in his life.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2635552273358716


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Madman said:


> We have beaten that horse.  My point was, spiritually it is of no value to go sit in the parking lot in my truck.  As stated, if you choose to stick your thumb in the local authority's eye then go ahead.
> 
> If "keeping someone's attention" is dependent upon how good the media guy is at putting on a show perhaps that church should reevaluate what it calls worship.
> 
> It is evident that you and I see worship in a totally different way.  You see it as entertainment, Holy Scripture calls it "liturgia" or the "work of the people".  In corporate worship God is the audience not me.



Well said.  Very well said.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Liberty has value.


 
As with everything else, only to the point God wills it.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

SemperFiDawg said:


> As with everything else, only to the point God wills it.



Sure, but pretending that God's will for other Christians is the same as God's will for you isn't really liberty - it's not Christian liberty, and it's not American liberty.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

Madman said:


> We evangelize and bring them into the church not visa versa.



One is very blind indeed if they pretend no one in church is in need of evangelizing.  One is also ignorant of Scripture, which recognizes that there will often be unbelievers in church meetings and points out that what happens in church should make sense to them.


----------



## j_seph

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> One is very blind indeed if they pretend no one in church is in need of evangelizing.  One is also ignorant of Scripture, which recognizes that there will often be unbelievers in church meetings and points out that what happens in church should make sense to them.


On a serious note, are you one of those that believe the only place one can get saved at is inside a church?


----------



## j_seph

City of Gainesville says this


> The order allows churches to have employees on site to deliver services via the internet, and it does permit churches to services on site, provided congregation members remain in their cars and social distancing requirement are met.


----------



## spurrs and racks

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> The Book says, "Do not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing."
> 
> Lots of counties in GA without a single case of COVID-19.
> 
> The Holy Spirit knew there would be diseases and plagues.
> 
> Sure, some steps of care are reasonable.  I don't mind encouraging those sick with contagious diseases to stay home.  Perhaps maintaining some "social distancing" practices in the meetings.
> 
> But this thing is likely to last a while, and the enemies of God are always looking for ways to get the saints to forsake their assembling together.
> 
> Mid-week, a number of churches were sending out encouragements for "faith over fear."  But come Sunday, they had cancelled.



I have a chair, sits on top the hill above my house, it sees a lot of prayer, and lately it has seen a lot more.


----------



## j_seph

spurrs and racks said:


> I have a chair, sits on top the hill above my house, it sees a lot of prayer, and lately it has seen a lot more.



25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

I do not know about you however myself and my family have not 
forsake:abandon (someone or something). / renounce or give up (something valued or pleasant). 
To renounce, abandon, give up usually means exactly that. I have not given up on assembling of ourselves together. My family and I have taken measures for protection of others and ourselves during the times. With the hopes that it will soon be over and that we will be back to norm inside the building some like to describe as the church.

Philippians 2
3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 

Does this not tell us as well to look after ourselves but also others? How are we looking out for others if we enter into a crowded church with the possibilities that we could or could not have this virus? As far as I am concerned everyone I see could have this virus including myself. Am I being precocious for myself? Yes I am but also for the others I may cross paths with during the day whether it be physically or maybe someone that pumps gas 5 cars later at the same pump I was at who has a someone who is at high risk. As I mentioned earlier, if God provided you with an umbrella to keep you dry and you go out in a downpour and get wet that is your own fault, the means were provided that you wouldn't. If you allow a co-worker to use it as they run out to their car for a moment to stay dry, then you have looked after another with something God has provided you with. If someone seriously think that God is going to be mad because we are not going into the church building with others when he has provided us with means to hear the foolishness of preaching then they are sadly mistaken.  

Proverbs 3:21 - My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion:


----------



## Mike 65

j_seph said:


> 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
> 
> I do not know about you however myself and my family have not
> forsake:abandon (someone or something). / renounce or give up (something valued or pleasant).
> To renounce, abandon, give up usually means exactly that. I have not given up on assembling of ourselves together. My family and I have taken measures for protection of others and ourselves during the times. With the hopes that it will soon be over and that we will be back to norm inside the building some like to describe as the church.
> 
> Philippians 2
> 3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
> 
> Does this not tell us as well to look after ourselves but also others? How are we looking out for others if we enter into a crowded church with the possibilities that we could or could not have this virus? As far as I am concerned everyone I see could have this virus including myself. Am I being precocious for myself? Yes I am but also for the others I may cross paths with during the day whether it be physically or maybe someone that pumps gas 5 cars later at the same pump I was at who has a someone who is at high risk. As I mentioned earlier, if God provided you with an umbrella to keep you dry and you go out in a downpour and get wet that is your own fault, the means were provided that you wouldn't. If you allow a co-worker to use it as they run out to their car for a moment to stay dry, then you have looked after another with something God has provided you with. If someone seriously think that God is going to be mad because we are not going into the church building with others when he has provided us with means to hear the foolishness of preaching then they are sadly mistaken.
> 
> Proverbs 3:21 - My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion:


Amen and Amen!


----------



## Madman

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> One is very blind indeed if they pretend no one in church is in need of evangelizing.  One is also ignorant of Scripture, which recognizes that there will often be unbelievers in church meetings and points out that what happens in church should make sense to them.


LDB it is evident we come from unbelievabley different traditions, but I assure you, even though I am ignorant of many things, Holy Scripture is not one of them.  

Ignorance of Scripture, for those in attendance, should never be mistaken for ignorance of the need for a savior.  When you say "One is very blind indeed if they pretend no one in church is in need of evangelizing."  It sounds like you are really saying they need "to be indoctrinated". 

If someone has no need for a physician, why take them to the hospital?  When the Gospel is preached and people see the need for a savior, church offers them the place to corporately offer that worship.  Church also provides the teaching and edification we need.

I have been sent into the world to preach the Gosple, I am not called to bring "the world" into the church to be taught the Gospel.


----------



## Israel

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in _those that are_ unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?



Then there are those who believe tongues were "once" a gift. As prophecy, the working of miracles, etc. Or that prophets are to speak...two or three. 

Not unusually these folks often call themselves believers. While not merely occupying the place of "_I have not seen_ such takes place", but further holding such _cannot take place._

Which is plainly why it is kinder to most often refrain from tongues in that situation...for as unbelievers in masquerade, it would not be kind to speak to them of things less plainly understood.

For if they cannot follow the plain _english_ (vernacular) of Paul:

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.

To how much more hurt might they be put if not being borne with in their ignorance and confusion?


----------



## spurrs and racks

j_seph said:


> 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
> 
> I do not know about you however myself and my family have not
> forsake:abandon (someone or something). / renounce or give up (something valued or pleasant).
> To renounce, abandon, give up usually means exactly that. I have not given up on assembling of ourselves together. My family and I have taken measures for protection of others and ourselves during the times. With the hopes that it will soon be over and that we will be back to norm inside the building some like to describe as the church.
> 
> Philippians 2
> 3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
> 
> Does this not tell us as well to look after ourselves but also others? How are we looking out for others if we enter into a crowded church with the possibilities that we could or could not have this virus? As far as I am concerned everyone I see could have this virus including myself. Am I being precocious for myself? Yes I am but also for the others I may cross paths with during the day whether it be physically or maybe someone that pumps gas 5 cars later at the same pump I was at who has a someone who is at high risk. As I mentioned earlier, if God provided you with an umbrella to keep you dry and you go out in a downpour and get wet that is your own fault, the means were provided that you wouldn't. If you allow a co-worker to use it as they run out to their car for a moment to stay dry, then you have looked after another with something God has provided you with. If someone seriously think that God is going to be mad because we are not going into the church building with others when he has provided us with means to hear the foolishness of preaching then they are sadly mistaken.
> 
> Proverbs 3:21 - My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion:



I sing at two churches, I have to rotate every Sunday. One has a TV ministry, and has been ministers only for several weeks. The other is a small church in town, and our Pastor is elderly, and he really didn't want to give it a rest for a few weeks. And he really wanted us back for Easter Sunday. Well, we have all prayed a lot and until we get the all is clear to reassemble, this will remain the order of operation.

I know this is hard on everybody in the churches, the elderly are the ones who miss the church the most. This is also the age group most effected by the virus. Until our Gov. Kemp and our Mayor give us the word. I will have to sit in the chair on top of the hill and speak one on one with my Lord.

Godspeed to all, Brothers in Christ, Spurrs and Racks


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

j_seph said:


> City of Gainesville says this:
> _The order allows churches to have employees on site to deliver services via the internet, and it does permit churches to services on site, provided congregation members remain in their cars and social distancing requirement are met. _



Gainesville has made a good decision allowing drive-in services.  We have contacted Phillip Beard (the Buford official who shut down drive-in services there last weekend) and asked him to clarify his position there.  He has not responded.  But it is clear other officials in Georgia are also coming out against drive-in services:




j_seph said:


> I will say this, this is a fellow brother in Christ who has never done anything like this. His message has been viewed 2700 times, he has probably never preached to no more than 200 or so at one time in his life.



The last sermon my family attended in person was supposed to stream live and also be available for later viewing.  All the other recent messages from this church have been.  But this one is curiously missing.  Not sure if censorship or a technical glitch.  But had we not been there in person, we would have missed it.  All those in attendance in person stayed until the end of the message.  I wonder how many who watched your friend's message online watched until the end.  



j_seph said:


> On a serious note, are you one of those that believe the only place one can get saved at is inside a church?



The Bible gives ample testimony of many people being saved outside of church.  And most Christians I am close to were saved outside of church.  But they give testimony that the preaching, teaching, and Scripture from church was an important part of the process.  If "faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God," then exposure to the word is a good thing. 



j_seph said:


> Does this not tell us as well to look after ourselves but also others? How are we looking out for others if we enter into a crowded church with the possibilities that we could or could not have this virus?



I have not seen a crowded church in Georgia since this all began.  Maintaining the recommended social distancing in church is much easier in church than in Walmart or in most retail stores.  My family's social interactions are reduced well over 90% the past few weeks, and we are in careful compliance with social distancing guidelines when we are in the presence of others.  No one is in danger.



Madman said:


> I have been sent into the world to preach the Gosple, I am not called to bring "the world" into the church to be taught the Gospel.



Did your children attend church before they were saved?

My view is that most evangelism should be done outside the church walls, but the churches in Scripture allowed unbelievers into their meetings, and my view is that the modern church should also.  Closing our doors to unbelievers or having our assemblies without recognizing there are unsaved people among us contradicts Scripture.  

Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of Christian liberty, if attending church violates your conscience or you think it puts someone in danger, stay home.  Watch online.  But for me, loving my neighbor as myself and doing unto others as I would have them do to me means respecting their Christian liberty to keep their churches open and to attend church if they choose.


----------



## welderguy

It's a little disturbing to me how much strict emphasis is put on church building attendance. As if that's THE defining criteria of a disciple of Jesus.


----------



## Israel

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.


----------



## NCHillbilly

welderguy said:


> It's a little disturbing to me how much strict emphasis is put on church building attendance. As if that's THE defining criteria of a disciple of Jesus.


That's where you put the money in the plate, and people pay a lot of attention to you while you preach, sing, and stuff.


----------



## BeerThirty

NCHillbilly said:


> That's where you put the money in the plate, and people pay a lot of attention to you while you preach, sing, and stuff.



Yup. But actually you don't see many folks dropping coin into the basket these days. Churches got smart and now you can setup auto-withdrawals. That or you can open their app and make a payment with [insert credit card or paypal]. Or you can text a payment. So watching to see if someone drops coin is not really accurate anymore..


----------



## SemperFiDawg

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Sure, but pretending that God's will for other Christians is the same as God's will for you isn't really liberty - it's not Christian liberty, and it's not American liberty.



I have no need for liberty outside of the spiritual liberty Christ has so freely given me.  I have been freed from the penalty of sin.  That is enough.  All other liberty, real or imagined, is just door trimmings.  Keep in mind there is not one thing, nothing, not a leaf falling from a tree, not a wisp of air,  that has ever happened that was not ORDAINED by God beforehand .  That would include this virus and the governments reaction to it.  One would be wise to keep that in mind. 

 As to 



> pretending that God's will for other Christians is the same as God's will for you isn't really liberty



I really don't know how you surmised this from my statement



> As with everything else, only to the point God wills it


.

I'm not at all concerned with God's will for other Christians.  It's certainly not within my purview,...…. outside of my hula hoop so-to-speak.    It's a 24/7 job just trying to do His will for me, given my always present self-destructive nature.  You may find a precedent for this in  "When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”  Jesus answered, *“If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” *

My *peace* resides in this very, very simple concept: *The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want*.  It's when I forget that, get out of my hula hoop, that I lose it.  

Maybe you will consider trying it.  If you do I promise you, you will know true peace.

And as to 



> it's not Christian liberty, and it's not American liberty



Any other concept of "Christian" liberty outside of the liberation of the penalty of sin provided by Christ is a false construct and straight from hades.  As to American liberty, what of it?  Jesus answered, “*My kingdom [a]is not of this world.* If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, *My kingdom is not of this realm.”*

I think it would be wise to ask yourself exactly what kingdom you are truly fighting for.

I'm a Marine, as you may have surmised by my member name.  I've made the mistake of fighting for a transient kingdom.  One that has changed dramatically over the course of my life to a kingdom I never would have believed that would have existed had you told me when I was a young, naïve 17 year old boy.  So I made that mistake; pledging to the wrong cause, and I've done it countless other times for countless other causes, again either real or imagined.   Fortunately for some reason I don't completely understand, outside of incomprehensible love of God* for me, *He had patience and eventually collected me in like a hen gathering a wayward chick.  So these days, I just try to stay under His wing, in His kingdom.  It's the only one that's important and everlasting; never changing.  Like I said, all the others are just door trimming and distractions.  And me, …… well, my history will prove just how easily distracted I can be if I'm not careful.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> One is very blind indeed if they pretend no one in church is in need of evangelizing.  One is also ignorant of Scripture, which recognizes that there will often be unbelievers in church meetings and points out that what happens in church should make sense to them.



I think both of you are both right and wrong in that you are focusing on the We, and not the HE.  Let's not forget His role in all this, while remembering ours.  Iffff we are blessed, we realize that we are merely spectators capable of recognizing his miraculous work.  If we are *doubly* blessed, then we realize that he actually used us, *me*, in some minor way in performing it.  Any other view and you are looking through the wrong end of the binoculars.


----------



## Madman

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Did your children attend church before they were saved?



You are going to have to define this.


----------



## Madman

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Closing our doors to unbelievers or having our assemblies without recognizing there are unsaved people among us contradicts Scripture.


I would be interested in seeing where you get that.




LittleDrummerBoy said:


> But for me, loving my neighbor as myself and doing unto others as I would have them do to me means respecting their Christian liberty to keep their churches open and to attend church if they choose.


 It also means keeping them safe from COVID-19


----------



## Madman

welderguy said:


> It's a little disturbing to me how much strict emphasis is put on church building attendance. As if that's THE defining criteria of a disciple of Jesus.


There is a need for corporate church attendance, the church is where God dispenses His Graces on His children.
I need the Mass as much as the Israelites needed manna.


----------



## Madman

SemperFiDawg said:


> I think both of you are both right and wrong in that you are focusing on the We, and not the HE.  Let's not forget His role in all this, while remembering ours.  Iffff we are blessed, we realize that we are merely spectators capable of recognizing his miraculous work.  If we are *doubly* blessed, then we realize that he actually used us, *me*, in some minor way in performing it.  Any other view and you are looking through the wrong end of the binoculars.


Where LDB and I differ is in the definition of worship.  I say ALL of my attention is bestowed upon the Father in worship, He is the audience, I am the one offering adoration to Him.

My tradition does not see worship as a spectator sport, we do not attend corporate worship to get "pumped up" by a self help preacher, nor do we become entranced by the drum beat of the band.


----------



## Israel

Madman said:


> Where LDB and I differ is in the definition of worship.  I say ALL of my attention is bestowed upon the Father in worship, He is the audience, I am the one offering adoration to Him.
> 
> My tradition does not see worship as a spectator sport, we do not attend corporate worship to get "pumped up" by a self help preacher, nor do we become entranced by the drum beat of the band.


 

That's a very convenient second paragraph if one wants to paint LDB with that brush.

Are you doing that?

If not, so be it.

If it is but denied...it leaves little doubt to the truth in the first paragraph...of bestowing all your attention upon your father.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Gainesville has made a good decision allowing drive-in services.  We have contacted Phillip Beard (the Buford official who shut down drive-in services there last weekend) and asked him to clarify his position there.  He has not responded.  But it is clear other officials in Georgia are also coming out against drive-in services.



The City of Buford has gotten back to me: no drive-in church services in their jurisdiction.  "The current Executive Order only allows travel into or out of the City to perform Essential Activities, operate Essential Businesses, or maintain Essential Governmental Functions."

Churches closed by executive order.


----------



## Madman

Israel said:


> That's a very convenient second paragraph if one wants to paint LDB with that brush.
> 
> Are you doing that?
> 
> If not, so be it.
> 
> If it is but denied...it leaves little doubt to the truth in the first paragraph...of bestowing all your attention upon your father.



I hold no brush.  It is simply a statement of fact, it is evident that the definition of worship is quit different for me and most who post here, but you must understand this is not about salvation, simply attending worship saves no one, and it also condemns no one.

I do not know what worship looks like for LDB, I do know that traditionally worship is not where the young in the faith are catechized, it is not where the unbeliever is brought to learn about the need of salvation.

Of course the Gospel is preached from the pulpit and the Holy Spirit falls on whom He wills but there is Sunday school, catechism classes, etc. where the faith is taught and has been for 2000+ years.

On the day of Pentecost the unbelievers were not in worship when they rent their garments, primary evangelism happens in the world by Christians preaching and living the Gospel of Christ and Him Crucified.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

NCHillbilly said:


> That's where you put the money in the plate, and people pay a lot of attention to you while you preach, sing, and stuff.



That's a pejorative stereotype at its best.  I realize you have that view of the church and it's strongly held based on your past experiences  I'm sorry for that, but your experiences are just that, yours.  They do not accurately reflect the church as a whole.  Are there hypocrites in church?  Heck yeah.  It's full of them.  I'm the worst.  At *best* believers strive for spiritual improvement, not spiritual perfection and that's where the rub is.  People easily recognize perfection imbodied by the life of Christ and his teaching.  Everybody gets that, even unbelievers.  So that's easy.  Then they look at the church members and don't see that perfectness and cry hypocrite.  Are they correct?  Yes and No.  

The apostle Paul who wrote 2/3rds of the New Testament said this about himself

“* For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. *”

so he's admitting he's displaying hypocritical behavior.  But notice his intent.  His intent, his want, his desire is to not. 

That's the point you're strawman ignores, a persons intent, his heart.  So I ask you, "Who would you rather associate with, men with overall good intentions, who try to keep them but occasionally fail, or men with no allegiance what-so-ever to good intentions?

A lot of people cite hypocrites as the reason they won't go to church, yet they will go to Walmart with them, eat with them, do business with them, play softball with them, etc.   Isn't that hypocritical in itself?  Sure it is.  

The bottom line is this, finishing Paul's statement:

 “I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.”

Sin is the problem, for the believer and unbeliever.  Just because one becomes a believer, he's still subject to sin, just not the punishment for it.  Now how seriously
one takes their own sin determines just how seriously one will take their salvation.  Me, well mine was *biggly * so I do my best, but again it's never even close to Christ-like.


----------



## NCHillbilly

SemperFiDawg said:


> That's a pejorative stereotype at its best.  I realize you have that view of the church and it's strongly held based on your past experiences  I'm sorry for that, but your experiences are just that, yours.  They do not accurately reflect the church as a whole.  Are there hypocrites in church?  Heck yeah.  It's full of them.  I'm the worst.  At *best* believers strive for spiritual improvement, not spiritual perfection and that's where the rub is.  People easily recognize perfection imbodied by the life of Christ and his teaching.  Everybody gets that, even unbelievers.  So that's easy.  Then they look at the church members and don't see that perfectness and cry hypocrite.  Are they correct?  Yes and No.
> 
> The apostle Paul who wrote 2/3rds of the New Testament said this about himself
> 
> * For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. *
> 
> so he's admitting he's displaying hypocritical behavior.  But notice his intent.  His intent, his want, his desire is to not.
> 
> That's the point you're strawman ignores, a persons intent, his heart.  So I ask you, "Who would you rather associate with, men with overall good intentions, who try to keep them but occasionally fail, or men with no allegiance what-so-ever to good intentions?
> 
> A lot of people cite hypocrites as the reason they won't go to church, yet they will go to Walmart with them, eat with them, do business with them, play softball with them, etc.   Isn't that hypocritical in itself?  Sure it is.
> 
> The bottom line is this, finishing Paul's statement:


Are you denying that one of the biggest appeals of church services to most Christians is the socializing aspect? Careful before you answer that, I was raised by a preacher and about everybody I know is a churchgoer. I think if you're honest with yourself, that is a huge part of it. I am 100% certain of it. Not the whole reason, but a big percentage of it. Church is a social gathering for the most part.


----------



## Israel

Madman said:


> I hold no brush.  It is simply a statement of fact.





> I hold no brush


? 

That's one of the funniest things I have ever heard. A man paints a picture of himself: 



> I say ALL of my attention is bestowed upon the Father in worship,




Would you like the Lord to show how much of your attention he truly has and has had?

Nothing's hidden except to be revealed.

I'm a pretty good artist at drawing myself in the best light also. Some act like Adam just showed up and we have no idea what he's going to say.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Madman said:


> It also means keeping them safe from COVID-19



That was my exact thought when I read it.


----------



## Madman

Israel said:


> ?
> 
> Would you like the Lord to show how much of your attention he truly has and has had?



Wrong question to ask at the end of Lent.  He shows me daily.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

NCHillbilly said:


> Are you denying that one of the biggest appeals of church services to most Christians is the socializing aspect? Careful before you answer that, I was raised by a preacher and about everybody I know is a churchgoer. I think if you're honest with yourself, that is a huge part of it. I am 100% certain of it. Not the whole reason, but a big percentage of it. Church is a social gathering for the most part.



Biggest?  I don't know.  Everybody has their own individual reason to go.  Some to be seen and heard. Others, because it's expected due to their social status.  Others to socialize.  Some to worship in a corporate body.  Some to hear the word of God preached and gain insight.  Me, I go for the same reason I go to the woods in the fall or the river in the spring: it's just another place to witness the miraculous hand of God at work, except instead of watching it's effects on the woods, water and wildlife, it's on people.  I don't have to answer for, nor can I control why others go; only me.  That's why I go.


----------



## welderguy

Madman said:


> There is a need for corporate church attendance, the church is where God dispenses His Graces on His children.
> I need the Mass as much as the Israelites needed manna.



Careful putting too much emphasis on it. God sent the manna and the quails to them to the point of it "coming out their ears".
...Too much dependance on a good thing...not good.


----------



## Madman

welderguy said:


> Careful putting too much emphasis on it. God sent the manna and the quails to them to the point of it "coming out their ears".
> ...Too much dependance on a good thing...not good.


Too much dependence on Christ. 

whatever,  you may want to reread the ending of John 6.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Madman said:


> My tradition does not see worship as a spectator sport, we do not attend corporate worship to get "pumped up" by a self help preacher, nor do we become entranced by the drum beat of the band.



I don’t have a tradition that I can say lead me to the same conclusion.  More or less trial and error.  My sons attend and perform in church bands. I’ve attended.  Can’t say I care for it.  It strikes me as a production, a concert complete with green light and fog generators.   I will allow that God can reach people through any means he chooses.  Even in my church there are days where the worship feels empty.  To me personally, corporate worship is best when it’s just that, corporate with songs and hymns that everyone knows and can join together in.  Then it can go deep to the spiritual level.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Madman said:


> Wrong question to ask at the end of Lent.  He shows me daily.



Lol.


----------



## NCHillbilly

My church is back in the mountains, among the high, quiet places and running waters. And I attend alone.


----------



## j_seph

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> The City of Buford has gotten back to me: no drive-in church services in their jurisdiction.  "The current Executive Order only allows travel into or out of the City to perform Essential Activities, operate Essential Businesses, or maintain Essential Governmental Functions."
> 
> Churches closed by executive order.


No mention I seen of Church or worship
https://www.cityofbuford.com/Assets/Files/Executive.Order.2020-2.1.pdf


----------



## Madman

NCHillbilly said:


> My church is back in the mountains, among the high, quiet places and running waters. And I attend alone.



You just may be surprised as to who is there with you.


----------



## j_seph

NCHillbilly said:


> Are you denying that one of the biggest appeals of church services to most Christians is the socializing aspect? Careful before you answer that, I was raised by a preacher and about everybody I know is a churchgoer. I think if you're honest with yourself, that is a huge part of it. I am 100% certain of it. Not the whole reason, but a big percentage of it. Church is a social gathering for the most part.


I personally do not go to Church for a social Gathering.


----------



## Madman

SemperFiDawg said:


> I don’t have a tradition that I can say lead me to the same conclusion.  More or less trial and error.  My sons attend and perform in church bands. I’ve attended.  Can’t say I care for it.  It strikes me as a production, a concert complete with green light and fog generators.   I will allow that God can reach people through any means he chooses.  Even in my church there are days where the worship feels empty.  To me personally, corporate worship is best when it’s just that, corporate with songs and hymns that everyone knows and can join together in.  Then it can go deep to the spiritual level.



I understand.  I'm not always on my "A" game during worship either, but I do know that the Father always is.  Usually, later in the day, or later in the week, He wacks me on the head, wakes me up to what I missed.

Happened just last evening, was "Zooming" with some fellows on the topic of silence.
I still have a knot on the back of my head.


----------



## welderguy

Madman said:


> Too much dependence on Christ.
> 
> whatever,  you may want to reread the ending of John 6.



No, not too much dependance on Christ. Too much dependance on gathering in a public assembly.  You're the one who made the comparison of it to manna. Not me.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

NCHillbilly said:


> My church is back in the mountains, among the high, quiet places and running waters. And I attend alone.





Would love to attend that one, next mountain over


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Madman said:


> I understand.  I'm not always on my "A" game during worship either, but I do know that the Father always is.  Usually, later in the day, or later in the week, He wacks me on the head, wakes me up to what I missed.
> 
> Happened just last evening, was "Zooming" with some fellows on the topic of silence.
> I still have a knot on the back of my head.



Yeah.  Them God slaps always leave me feeling like “Duh!!! Boy am I dense.”


----------



## NE GA Pappy

NCHillbilly said:


> Are you denying that one of the biggest appeals of church services to most Christians is the socializing aspect? Careful before you answer that, I was raised by a preacher and about everybody I know is a churchgoer. I think if you're honest with yourself, that is a huge part of it. I am 100% certain of it. Not the whole reason, but a big percentage of it. Church is a social gathering for the most part.



yep, you are right Steve.  To a lot of people, it is no more than another chance to meet with the right people to enhance their business, or to impress the man across town that they can't stand to be around.  Some go to church because it is the 'social' thing to do, kind of like attending the high school reunion.  

I have wondered for years if people really consider why they go to church.  Then on the other hand, I see people who gather because they truly want to learn. They truly are grateful for the blessings that God has given them.  They yearn to draw close to God.   Those are the ones I want to be around.  The ones who can encourage me in my walk.  The ones I can confide in, and the ones I have given permission to speak into my life, and tell me were I am screwing up.  

It was once called 'equipping the saints for the work of ministry'


----------



## Madman

welderguy said:


> No, not too much dependance on Christ. Too much dependance on gathering in a public assembly.  You're the one who made the comparison of it to manna. Not me.


I didn't compare gathering to manna, I compared the Mass, that is the Eucharist.


----------



## Madman




----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

Churches can meet again and are under the same restrictions as Walmart and liquor stores!  The governor's order quashes all existing municipal and county orders, and only requires that folks maintain the social distancing requirements!


----------



## 4HAND

Gov Desantis did not include churches in his "stay at home" executive order.

However, we need to use common sense & social distancing.


----------



## Havana Dude

NCHillbilly said:


> Are you denying that one of the biggest appeals of church services to most Christians is the socializing aspect? Careful before you answer that, I was raised by a preacher and about everybody I know is a churchgoer. I think if you're honest with yourself, that is a huge part of it. I am 100% certain of it. Not the whole reason, but a big percentage of it. Church is a social gathering for the most part.



With God as my witness, I can assure you with 100% accuracy, I do not attend church for the social gathering. We have attended our church for approx 15 years. There are plenty of folks in there I have never spoken to or vice versa. I have zero issue with that. I make no claim to be a saint, I’m a sinner, saved by Gods grace. Not by any man, or his like or dislike of me. We actually avoid social gatherings as much as possible. We partake in homecoming activities, and the occasional dinner on the grounds. I occasionally help the pastor out with a menial task, here and there by request, and generally prefer that no one else be around. The social aspect of church is of zero importance to me.


----------



## 4HAND

I'm pretty sure if it was just for the social aspect folks wouldn't be so concerned about not attending. 

I really miss it. We're doing drive in church but I really miss meeting together in our Sanctuary. 

I think because of our freedom to worship I may have taken it for granted. It was just normal to attend church on Wed & twice on Sunday. 

I sure won't do that anymore. I'll be so thankful when we get back to being able to have church in our Sanctuary again. 
I expect the first service back in will be a really good one.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Churches can meet again and are under the same restrictions as Walmart and liquor stores!  The governor's orView attachment 1010525



the way I read that, you could have one family sitting all together, if they live together.  and another family seated 6 ft away from them.  It doesn't look like there is a limit on the number of persons in the building, as long as these family units stay 6 ft from any other family unit.

I gather those assumptions from the line that says 10 persons to be gathered in a single location if such gathering requires persons to stand or to be seated within six feet of any other person.  

Is that how you read it?


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

NE GA Pappy said:


> the way I read that, you could have one family sitting all together, if they live together.  and another family seated 6 ft away from them.  It doesn't look like there is a limit on the number of persons in the building, as long as these family units stay 6 ft from any other family unit.
> 
> I gather those assumptions from the line that says 10 persons to be gathered in a single location if such gathering requires persons to stand or to be seated within six feet of any other person.
> 
> Is that how you read it?



I agree.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

welderguy said:


> No, not too much dependance on Christ. Too much dependance on gathering in a public assembly.



A year ago, many here argued that fellowship in non-church contexts and getting all of one's interactions outside their household from online sources was "too little" appreciation for the importance of public assembly.

From the church meetings I've attended in the COVID-19 era, I'd estimate less than 20% of the normal attendance was present, probably closer to 10%.  As a matter of Christian liberty, shouldn't our brothers and sisters in Christ be free from our accusation if following their own faith and conscience in continuing to meet in such small numbers.  Especially since they are in careful compliance with social distancing guidelines and there is much less risk of transmitting COVID-19 in their church meetings than at Walmart or the gun counter of the local gun store?

One bears false witness against one's neighbor by claiming they are endangering us simply by continuing to assemble.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> One bears false witness against one's neighbor by claiming they are endangering us simply by continuing to assemble.



Jeez man!  It's only false if it's untrue, which it's not.  What exactly about that do you NOT get. 

 It's those with that mentality, and it only takes one, that have the capacity to become super-spreaders.  So I guess infecting 1000s and potentially killing 10s, 100s of "you brothers", is the cost everyone pays for your ego.


----------



## BeerThirty

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> One bears false witness against one's neighbor by claiming they are endangering us simply by continuing to assemble.



I'm sorry, I have respected your stance on this as a fearless Christian warrior, but I'm going to have to disagree with you here. You are the one, in fact, who is straight up bearing false witness, by accusing someone else of bearing false witness when they are actually not. It doesn't take God, a Christian or a rocket scientist here to agree that social assembly of any kind is a risk right now. To make what I'm saying absolutely crystal clear: You are calling someone a liar because you don't agree that social assembly amplifies the risk of spreading a virus that is scientifically proven to transmit in congregation. Facts say that you are endangering others, not lies. 

Your blind faith here is reckless.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Churches holding services now, in light of what we know about the virus, is about the best way I can think of to make a secular society appear more moral that the church.

Tell you what, instead of bowing up to fight some perceived tyrannical government outreach.  Why don't we all just take the time Sunday that we would have spent in church, giving OUR PERSONAL testimony to a close friend or family member who is not saved.  Tell them what God has done for you personally. 

It's a winner on all fronts.  It's about the highest form of worship I can think of.  It is fulfilling the Great Commision.  It will show your concern now in a time when everyone could use a little reassurance, and most people are really more appreciative than ever for someone to converse with.  And for those to who it applies, you can tell your ego's that you were so smart you found a way around the tyranny.  

If everyone does this, you could have a church who's membership grew during a time of trial and ain't that what God's so good at: turning trials into blessings for His namesake.    Don't you think this is right up his alley so-to-speak.

This is what I'm committing to anyway.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=244645340049136


----------



## gemcgrew

SemperFiDawg said:


> Churches holding services now, in light of what we know about the virus, is about the best way I can think of to make a secular society appear more moral that the church.


Churches holding services now, in light of what we know about the virus, is about the best way I can think of to show a secular society the moral superiority of the church.

Now what?


----------



## BeerThirty

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=244645340049136



The enemy is the coronavirus. I don't think it knows what the church is.


----------



## Israel

Who or what is enemy?

How is this determined most especially in what is called "the church" if it is acknowledged such is. If there be such as some contend, an assembly called out to God through Jesus Christ (in Heaven and earth) that is born of and abides in the testimony that Jesus Christ is the abiding Lord (they knowing their abiding is all and only in consequence to His being the abiding one) how is enemy identified?

Will the world tell them? Will they even tell themselves, deciding for them self in each or every situation? And if either they collectively, or they individually hold a poor recognition of friend, who He is, how He is, and of what ability and power He is, of nature and character that are His, even to giving light and sight to the blind, who will know friend from enemy or enemy from friend?

If there be no acknowledgement that it is alone in His authority to determine nature of each and every thing, the man will easily think he is to himself...his own best friend.

The matter that:

"*Can* the Ethiopian *change his* skin, or the *leopard his spots*? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Speaks only to the thing's ability to change itself. But we do not deny a rod can become a serpent, the dead can live, and even what has once held only motive perceived as evil, can be turned for good.

Can a thing be made to hope in eager expectation for what it has been told will come when it does not expect? Surely, not of itself.

If the "church"_ that is_, (that is, that there are a people of God), do not believe that at any moment of their perception whether individually as members (of one another!) or given in "corporate" vision, as being _even more peculiar than they know, _that Christ is always yet more than we know, that life is always more than we yet know of it, there can be no hope _of change_, nor any hope to be found _in change. _That is of course...unless we ourselves..._are changed._

_And this we will neither do, nor can, of ourselves. _

What does anything hold in excess of this:


All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore...

_I am_ he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of he11 and of death.


I will not neglect how that my poverty creates a pull, a demand, a supplication...even when unuttered of myself. Seeks supply. But it is seen, and known...in spirit, and ministered to.

My brother Glenn gave me something, or better, something was given through him that the Spirit saw of my need. For the Spirit Himself makes intercessions for us in groanings too deep to be uttered.

In the "all things"...of which God is able to cause to work for good is also included another "all things"

Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ _is_ God's.

I often, perhaps always, do not know what is missing, lacking, or moving behind gauzy perception as only shape and shadow...is it friend? Enemy? Gift?

Death is a gift to me in Christ. It is not a thing to happen, not a thing of which yes and no is to be attached...but...a gift, no less in all of what is given of God through Christ. I never saw it so, really. It, as has been my experience with anything promised, always came in first vaguest of form...tiny even, like a point of light shining in a dark place. Till apprehended.

It is made clear there is a boldness born of desperation to have. A woman will gladly submit to taking the label of dog in trade for her..."nevertheless"...

A man might even be told repeatedly by God he is blind and knowing nothing in all his doing, needing rebuke at almost every turn, yet still find a surprising place where there is a space provided to say "nevertheless, it doesn't matter to me, Lord, I still need you and to see you..."


----------



## SemperFiDawg

gemcgrew said:


> Churches holding services now, in light of what we know about the virus, is about the best way I can think of to show a secular society the moral superiority of the church.
> 
> Now what?



“Moral Superiority”????  Is that what you think you are called to, or have somehow acquired through your faith?  I’m gonna let you rethink that one, before I comment further.   I will only say this about the “moral superiority”  of the Church in the context of this pandemic: if it was anywhere near where it was called to be, a church wouldn’t need to create a spectacle of itself to show it.  It would have been self evident long before.


----------



## Israel

SemperFiDawg said:


> “Moral Superiority”????  Is that what you think you are called to, or have somehow acquired through your faith?  I’m gonna let you rethink that one, before I comment further.   I will only say this about the “moral superiority”  of the Church in the context of this pandemic: if it was anywhere near where it was called to be, a church wouldn’t need to create a spectacle of itself to show it.  It would have been self evident long before.


Do you know what a sucker punch is?


----------



## SemperFiDawg

BeerThirty said:


> The enemy is the coronavirus. I don't think it knows what the church is.



That was disturbing on a number of levels.  As a pastor he’s worked up enough to go online and post a political rant regarding his concern over the loss of his rights.  I can speak only for me,  but as a very poor semblance of anything Christ-like, I hope I never place MY rights or the concern over My rights, over those of others.  God forbid MY right to peaceably assemble or worship be placed over some else’s at the expense of their health.  Doubly so if they are unbelievers, for in doing so I would not only be putting them in physical danger, but because of their unbelief,  possibly expediting their spiritual end.  When I read the Gospels I come away with the impression of a Messiah that always puts others first, no matter the costs, no matter the circumstance; a humble man who constantly yielded to government, religious, and public pressure.  His harshest words were for the “church” leaders of his day who were so focused on the worship of God that they crucified him.  They had their priorities upside-down.  Do we?


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Israel said:


> Do you know what a sucker punch is?



I respect your opinion Brother, but I’m not sure what you mean by that.  Can you clarify.


----------



## Israel

SemperFiDawg said:


> I respect your opinion Brother, but I’m not sure what you mean by that.  Can you clarify.


I think once is set up any comparison...more moral, less moral, then is invited the opposing statement or conviction...which is no less submitted to the then metric of morals. More moral vs less moral

I am more than able to be wrong...but I am less inclined to believe GEM to be endorsing moral superiority...but that if that is the metric "one thing" about the church is as equally true of another.


Ultimately, I am inclined to consider GEM convicted of matter of nature...which leaves no room for comparisons...only recognition of (I would think along the lines of life/death...light/dark) of even mutually exclusive property.

And I, now speaking only for myself think "property" has a sense to it.

And please, as I know I have used "the world" on innumerable occasions, I do not refer to people or even "a people" but a structure, a machine, a thing beholden to a certain mind, served in complete devotion until redeemed from.

And in matter of mind and redemption it is not again a redemption from a lesser mind to a (or only) greater or better mind...but from a created mind to the Uncreated One.

And if happly I find myself rebuked by both you and GEM, of both ignorance and presumption...LOL...you shall find a solid place of agreement!


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Israel said:


> I think once is set up any comparison...more moral, less moral, then is invited the opposing statement or conviction...which is no less submitted to the then metric of morals. More moral vs less moral
> 
> I am more than able to be wrong...but I am less inclined to believe GEM to be endorsing moral superiority...but that if that is the metric "one thing" about the church is as equally true of another.
> 
> 
> Ultimately, I am inclined to consider GEM convicted of matter of nature...which leaves no room for comparisons...only recognition of (I would think along the lines of life/death...light/dark) of even mutually exclusive property.
> 
> And I, now speaking only for myself think "property" has a sense to it.
> 
> And please, as I know I have used "the world" on innumerable occasions, I do not refer to people or even "a people" but a structure, a machine, a thing beholden to a certain mind, served in complete devotion until redeemed from.
> 
> And in matter of mind and redemption it is not again a redemption from a lesser mind to a (or only) greater or better mind...but from a created mind to the Uncreated One.




Annnnnd I still don’t know.   I’m dumb.  Simple sentences work best for me.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

I am pleased to report that my family and I found at least one church was open within a reasonable drive, and we were able to attend in person this morning.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I am pleased to report that my family and I found at least one church was open within a reasonable drive, and we were able to attend in person this morning.



Good for you.


----------



## Israel

SemperFiDawg said:


> Churches holding services now, in light of what we know about the virus, is about the best way I can think of to make a secular society appear more moral that the church.



I am thinking it was not GEM who set up the criteria of "moral"?


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Israel said:


> I am thinking it was not GEM who set up the criteria of "moral"?



You would be correct.  I did set morality as the criteria.  It is the basis on which the church is judged by society.  Rightly or wrongly, it’s true none the less.
However I never suggested it a criteria the church should strive for; being “morally superior” .  That’s what the Pharisees did; strive for that moral superiority, and we all know how that ended.    And it’s, that,  as I understand it, is what GEM, was saying; Keep holding church so our “moral superiority” will be evident..  

To put it bluntly that’s delusional given what we know, just religious Grandstanding for the sake of ego.

It’s misguided at best and evil regardless. It intentionally harms others, is antithetical to the Gospel and cast the entire body of Christ in a bad light.  And why?  So a few pastors and their congregations can be proud.  These churches ought to have to post a header underneath their Church Name that boldly reads “So misguided that even an unchurched child can see it”.

Oh and Thanks!!! For the simple sentence.


----------



## Israel




----------



## 7 point

We are doing drive through church and streaming on Facebook and YouTube I've been bringing my trailer in to use as a stage it's been working out pretty good but I miss the fellowship .


----------



## Israel

Had GEM been intending that as a recommendation then, on that basis, it would be inviting rebuttal. But I don't read it that way.

When he says "now what"  it appears to me that he is making of both arguments or contentions a wash...each one up for dismissal by presentation of a counter...

The "no win" situation, once abhorred, even strenuously resisted is being made to me the only secure place of occupation. It is only there I begin to see mercy, for it is really only there I am forced to it. Where I know none of my decisions or choice can afford me any relief or escape...where I cannot be right enough to find salvation...or too wrong to prevent it.

To some this will easily be translated as "he cares not about right or wrong"...and not seen as it is...

The mercy I seek is not much about "help me make the right choice" as it is a plea of help from a creature that knows he is totally incapable of it.

I do what I do, and if mercy is not found for that, provided for that, then of all men I am most miserable. Which oddly leaves me singing.

Of God's choice One.


----------



## longrangedog

A number of Church at Liberty Square (Bartow County) members have died in the last couple weeks from the virus that they caught at church.


----------



## 4HAND

7 point said:


> We are doing drive through church and streaming on Facebook and YouTube I've been bringing my trailer in to use as a stage it's been working out pretty good but I miss the fellowship .


We're doing drive in church too. Set equipment (spaced out) up on covered area in front if church.
Been having good attendance. 
I sure will be glad to get back to normal though. I'm gonna try to not take some things for granted anymore.


----------



## 7 point

This is what we did


----------



## Mike 65

7 point said:


> This is what we didView attachment 1011001


 This church looks very familiar, where is it?


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

BeerThirty said:


> Your blind faith here is reckless.



I'm not counting on divine protection in church attendance any more than normal.  But I bear witness that the church meetings I've attended since the outbreak of COVID-19 have been very careful in keeping social distancing requirements.  In this instance, I am depending on science rather than on faith.  I am a scientist in a household of scientists, including an epidemiologist who has worked for the CDC.  What I've seen at the liquor store, the gun counter, in sporting goods stores, at the boat ramp, and at the grocery store all represent much greater risks of COVID-19 transmission that what I've seen in church.  In addition to often being closer than the recommended 6 feet in those other situations, the risk is higher than church due to the touching of common objects - goods, money, etc.  In church, folks were not only very careful to maintain a distance greater than 6 feet - they were careful not to handle common objects.  They even stopped passing the offering plate.

One can only bear true witness to what one has see or experienced.


----------



## NCHillbilly

longrangedog said:


> A number of Church at Liberty Square (Bartow County) members have died in the last couple weeks from the virus that they caught at church.


Quit inserting facts into an emotional argument.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I'm not counting on divine protection in church attendance any more than normal.  But I bear witness that the church meetings I've attended since the outbreak of COVID-19 have been very careful in keeping social distancing requirements.  In this instance, I am depending on science rather than on faith.  I am a scientist in a household of scientists, including an epidemiologist who has worked for the CDC.  What I've seen at the liquor store, the gun counter, in sporting goods stores, at the boat ramp, and at the grocery store all represent much greater risks of COVID-19 transmission that what I've seen in church.  In addition to often being closer than the recommended 6 feet in those other situations, the risk is higher than church due to the touching of common objects - goods, money, etc.  In church, folks were not only very careful to maintain a distance greater than 6 feet - they were careful not to handle common objects.  They even stopped passing the offering plate.
> 
> One can only bear true witness to what one has see or experienced.



“I am depending on science rather than on faith.”

Spoken like a true believer.

“I am a scientist in a household of scientists,”.

Ahhh.  Titles.  Here’s my opinion that I’ve formed based on 30 years of working in the medical field.  Titles and degrees are essentially worthless when it comes to application.  I’ve seen numerous Mds and PhDs who didn’t have the sense to tie their own shoes, much less function in a setting that required application to the point I tell my superiors when they ask my recommendation on a potential hire.  Forget the Titles and Degrees.  “Give me a doer, not a knower.  I can train a doer.  I can’t train a knower.  They are already convinced they know everything and are dangerous to patients because they don’t know and won’t listen, yet they are keen to flaunt their papers.  I’ve never try to flaunt mine, because I don’t think much of it.  If I can’t instill confidence in someone through my decisions and their outcomes, my work ethic and how proficient I am at my duties, then a piece of paper,  ...well there IS a toilet paper shortage so it’s not totally useless.

I do have a question?  I’m assuming that kids are going to these churches with their parents.  I have kids and know how they are drawn to socialize with each other.  Are they kept in the vehicles and not allowed to visit others vehicles.  How does that all work?


----------



## Israel

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I'm not counting on divine protection in church attendance any more than normal.  But I bear witness that the church meetings I've attended since the outbreak of COVID-19 have been very careful in keeping social distancing requirements.  In this instance, I am depending on science rather than on faith.  I am a scientist in a household of scientists, including an epidemiologist who has worked for the CDC.  What I've seen at the liquor store, the gun counter, in sporting goods stores, at the boat ramp, and at the grocery store all represent much greater risks of COVID-19 transmission that what I've seen in church.  In addition to often being closer than the recommended 6 feet in those other situations, the risk is higher than church due to the touching of common objects - goods, money, etc.  In church, folks were not only very careful to maintain a distance greater than 6 feet - they were careful not to handle common objects.  They even stopped passing the offering plate.
> 
> One can only bear true witness to what one has see or experienced.



That's Latin, _darlin_', evidently Mr. Ringo here's an _educated man_. _Now_ I really _hate him_.


----------



## j_seph

I worry about those who are "Saved" but the only way they can feel the spirit, worship, or draw nigh to God requires them to be gathered together with others. Makes one question what spirit they are feeling.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Israel said:


> That's Latin, _darlin_', evidently Mr. Ringo here's an _educated man_. _Now_ I really _hate him_.




OMG. That brought tears of laughter to my eyes.  Thank you so much for that.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

j_seph said:


> I worry about those who are "Saved" but the only way they can feel the spirit, worship, or draw nigh to God requires them to be gathered together with others. Makes one question what spirit they are feeling.



I don’t necessarily question the spirit nor their heart, just their understanding.  Do people not know God is ALWAYS present.  I’ve felt the spirit in various services before, but never so personal as when I’m alone.  It’s then that I hear God the clearest.


----------



## 7 point

Mike 65 said:


> This church looks very familiar, where is it?


First Baptist of port St. John. Florida


----------



## Mike 65

7 point said:


> First Baptist of port St. John. Florida


Not where I was thinking. Thanks


----------



## Ruger#3




----------



## Nicodemus

Ruger#3 said:


> View attachment 1011127




Amen.


----------



## NCHillbilly

Ruger#3 said:


> View attachment 1011127


Apparently, sadly, that's not true. If you want to risk your own life, that's one thing. If you want to put your children and other people at risk, that's another thing. A large portion of the COVID deaths in GA can be traced back directly to church services. Some people don't care one bit as long as they can continue to virtue-signal.


----------



## 4HAND

We have not had any issues with our "drive in" church. Folks stay in their vehicles & leave when the service ends. Haven't seen any mingling.


----------



## kmh1031

Just because we may have a right or been commanded.... does not mean we do not use a “spirit of a sound mind” when dealing with issues like the virus and church assembly. (2Tim 1:7)

Note Jesus words;
and take note of the Second and greatest commandment Im verse 39

Matt 22:37-39
This is the greatest and first commandment. 

 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself

Would we truly be showing love, and obeying Jesus IF we brought harm to ourselves, or brothers our family, others, if we insisted on meeting? 

I can’t see how we can obey Jesus and insist on being with 100-1200+ people?

Also  note Romans 13:1

“Everyone must obey the state authorities, for no authority exists without Gods permission, and the existing authorities have been out there by God.-TEV

As long as these laws do not interfere with Gods laws a Christian is commanded to obey them. 

This virus is a temporary thing and not permanent. 

Are there other ways to meet?
Absolutely!

Phone meetings and zoom 
Our congregation has setup a zoom account for all.

We get on 15-30 min before, talk laugh, have a good time and then the service begins. 
Once over we do the same.   

For those who are a little technically challenged we have a phone dial in... so they can hear the service

Still obeying God, and the superior authorities and meeting together.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

NCHillbilly said:


> Apparently, sadly, that's not true. If you want to risk your own life, that's one thing. If you want to put your children and other people at risk, that's another thing. A large portion of the COVID deaths in GA can be traced back directly to church services. Some people don't care one bit as long as they can continue to virtue-signal.



Are drive-in services putting the lives of others at risk?

Are gun stores that remain open?  Walmart?  Gun ranges?

"Differing weights and differing measures, the LORD detests them both."

Yes, we do unto others as we would have them do to us.  We love our neighbor as ourselves.  I want to remain free to go fishing or hunting or to the gun store or shooting range without incurring the judgement of my neighbor or the false testimony that I "am putting his life at risk."

Therefore, I would be a hypocrite if I judged my neighbor for simply attending church.


----------



## NCHillbilly

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Are drive-in services putting the lives of others at risk?
> 
> Are gun stores that remain open?  Walmart?  Gun ranges?
> 
> "Differing weights and differing measures, the LORD detests them both."
> 
> Yes, we do unto others as we would have them do to us.  We love our neighbor as ourselves.  I want to remain free to go fishing or hunting or to the gun store or shooting range without incurring the judgement of my neighbor or the false testimony that I "am putting his life at risk."
> 
> Therefore, I would be a hypocrite if I judged my neighbor for simply attending church.


Drive-in services? Probably not. Walmart and gun stores and shooting ranges and regular church services? Yes. Hunting and fishing by yourself? No. Right now, there are some things you HAVE to do, like getting enough  food to stay alive. You don't HAVE to go to a church service, or Walmart, or a gun store or shooting range. The least contact you can possibly have with other people, the better. Anywhere.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

4HAND said:


> We have not had any issues with our "drive in" church. Folks stay in their vehicles & leave when the service ends. Haven't seen any mingling.



That was a major concern I had wondered about.  If the kids get out of the car and co-mingle, all is for naught.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

9





LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Are drive-in services putting the lives of others at risk?
> 
> Are gun stores that remain open?  Walmart?  Gun ranges?
> 
> "Differing weights and differing measures, the LORD detests them both."
> 
> Yes, we do unto others as we would have them do to us.  We love our neighbor as ourselves.  I want to remain free to go fishing or hunting or to the gun store or shooting range without incurring the judgement of my neighbor or the false testimony that I "am putting his life at risk."
> 
> Therefore, I would be a hypocrite if I judged my neighbor for simply attending church.



"
Are drive-in services putting the lives of others at risk?

Are gun stores that remain open?  Walmart?  Gun ranges?"

You're right IMHO.  Apples and oranges.  The goal of enterprise is to make money, the goal of the church is to love and relieve the suffering of others.  And as you so well quoted.

"Differing weights and differing measures, the LORD detests them both."

That said, Ifffffff there is no co-mingling between kids, which I feel would be very hard to guarantee.  I have 6.  I KNOW how that works.  But if that is guaranteed, I see it no more risky than going to Walmart.  However that, as I see it, isn't the point, not for the Church.  The focus of the Church is again to love and relieve the suffering of others.  That's why 99% of the churches have went to online services until after this passes; to protect each other and the community as a whole.  That's the point.


----------



## Israel

In all seriousness I would say in some matters it is all too late for that. Not that intentions hold no weight, nor that we are forbidden their acknowledgment in our holding of them. "I am of this intent" or whatever.

Nevertheless we, as christians know (?), these are always open to examination and disclosure, not by our will they be, and certainly not of our desire, but only because we are being convinced (often against our will) that:

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things _are_ naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Yet, even if we are not being convinced, this remains true. And every man is free to believe his own intentions pure, and no less believe those as stated by his neighbor, but never apart (if we do indeed claim liberty) from the knowledge of Him who alone gives liberty, and the conviction that at any time, by any means, and to His purpose, anything may be exposed as having an unsure foundation. Or, just as well, they may be established.

This is the peculiar place to which we are called to live, knowing that _only mercy, _and only mercy's _prevailing there _holds any form of hope. We dare not trust ourselves (though God has mercy upon that predicament, knowing far better than we  ourselves how a man _relates to himself_) if we would acknowledge salvation as true.

And as rightly stated God hates an unjust balance.


It is a very strange matter to pursue and consider, this salvation. Yet in its self-providing impetus of that (for there is nothing _more grasping of the heart _in every sense, nothing ever given more than Christ who is salvation) we are unapologetically and relentlessly captured. We _must know_ Him. There is nothing else...and nothing else to know.

A prisoner of Christ may not know all the ramifications and every intended consequence of his having been imprisoned, captured, even _enslaved_... (Paul said "not that I am already made perfect") but he may be given to know that. Even enslaved to knowing..."that I may apprehend that for which I have been apprehended".

It is the only place knowing is; for outside Christ...in whatever may be considered "else" nothing can be known of Him (God) who is the all knowing. Outside of Christ (if you can tolerate that phrase in service to notion) nothing "knows" anything.
Knowing is in a consciousness that is_ the all _consciousness, and given as He wills to what He wills. No man can even know he is a sinner in any way, shape or form...unless such knowing is given him.

If you have not had any experience in whatever measure of God's allowance for you to taste the "untethering" of your consciousness (who could _allow this_...but God?) so be it. No taste of being in that place of all sifting...where _center_ is not only not perceived, but not even known remembered as a once perceptible thing, so be it. If you do not, have not any experience of that place...where it is not even found to know "I am in terror" for terror is all that is known...no "I" even to be secured around which it appears terror swirls, so be it.

It is only after deliverance one can even say "I was in terror", the "I" being graciously restored. For in that...all is irreducibly reduced, or as much as may be allowed...to its seeing. And perhaps such a man has seen nothing at all, and knows nothing at all. So be it.

If you imagine such is reserved, such is not true, or such is of such insanity as only to be insane ramblings, so be it. And I would not deny it may be reserved to only the most wicked sinner, the "worst of the worst", the one unreprovable by any other means, so crazy to imagine his "good intentions" will stand before God. The _only one_ of good intent.

And if one mistakenly thinks it is obvious, assumed, presumed that, in such, the man would "automatically" cry for mercy...one has not yet been in that which plea for mercy is not only not found, but in all contradiction of its being. The plea itself...must be given. The plea given, is itself gift there. The plea is given as center, centering, alone which holds power of all that irreducible fragmentation. The cry for mercy is no simply accessible thing in a man's own power, no assumed matter that "if a man is pressed enough" he will surely plea. The church, above all, should know this. Is the only thing in "the earth" that can.

And some hold "that day" in reservation, thinking it is theirs to see...to believe "if things are so much shown to me as beyond...I, there, will just ask for mercy". "I will always find place of repentance" granted.

No man comes out until the uttermost farthing is paid. Yes, God abhors an unjust balance.

Now the rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. Furthermore, they did not repent of their murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft. Rev 9:20



If, and only if, the minister of mercy, so deems. How much will just go its way railing, God knows.


And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. Rev 16:9

So much for "I will find what I need when I need it".

Doesn't "the better" deserve better? But we live where this is all confounded...where "the better" is found in all hope for _better_...for the lesser.

So men need not admit to "liking" be reviled for their intentions, or finding themselves accused for them, or finding that at best "doing unto others as we would have them do unto us" is only answered with the scourge.


We are given something so much in excess, so much beyond in abundance to all confounding of what has not yet found it nor seen it. We are shown a thing that saves us, the obedience of Christ, and only His, that we dare not come behind to the knowing, not because of our intent, but an irresistible dynamic that is inseparable in the gift of salvation...to _know Him. _

And as His obedience came not one whit short, any witness of that has a driving toward what is most profoundly against anything of the _else. _To the very end of the most peculiar demonstration of _its witness:_

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

There is the oddest ingredient of taste ministered to what has been set apart to no tasting except of Him, and for His sake, and this is given as gift...may we not come short in receiving it. For His sake, He has given it us...for our sake.

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

It is rejoicing and being exceeding glad, for great is a reward that cannot be found given by earth nor from it. 

The better in all hope of giving. 

Is God _in need of mercy to be ministered to Himself?_

We can at best only show what we are told he delights in seeing.

If you had known what this means, I desire mercy and not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the guiltless.

Does God..._deserve _better? To have shown that in which He delights?

Will it be rendered through gritted teeth? Perhaps until the uttermost farthing is paid. 

God is faithful.


----------



## Ruger#3

Did you take drive-in communion? I have not attended such and can only judge by videos I’ve watched. The person(s) serving all wore gloves that were not changed after each person.  They filled the cups and placed the wafers on the tray with same gloves for the entire church as each family drove by. With the best of intent folks are exposing themselves and their loved ones.  You would be outraged at this practice at McDonalds but church is ok.

Sans that issue, I think drive in church shows love and support.

Attending a service indoors in any fashion at present stands to spread this pestilence. When you put others at risk that’s where your rights stop. How anyone can see love, compassion and a serving spirit in this practice now is beyond my understanding.


----------



## Israel

Everything that can be cancelled will be cancelled until only what is un-cancellable remains.


----------



## 4HAND

Ruger#3 said:


> Did you take drive-in communion? I have not attended such and can only judge by videos I’ve watched. The person(s) serving all wore gloves that were not changed after each person.  They filled the cups and placed the wafers on the tray with same gloves for the entire church as each family drove by. With the best of intent folks are exposing themselves and their loved ones.  You would be outraged at this practice at McDonalds but church is ok.
> 
> Sans that issue, I think drive in church shows love and support.
> 
> Attending a service indoors in any fashion at present stands to spread this pestilence. When you put others at risk that’s where your rights stop. How anyone can see love, compassion and a serving spirit in this practice now is beyond my understanding.



We didn't serve communion.


----------



## Israel

ahhhh, but this is good...The Lord's Supper, the "communion..." a meal shared in acknowledgement of the Head of the table who has gathered a family together from every kindred, nation, tribe and tongue...and would have no other motive to come together except by that...having everything in common...because they have "nothing else" in common.

Yes, the Lord's supper...needing of no ministration except of the Head...no pastor, no bishop, no apostle, no priest, ...ministers it to "others"...it is a shared and fully equal participation only. Our demonstration of need and our demonstration of whom is our provision. A meal. 

Soon...what has been been opposing the revelation of the church will be shown as what it has been...a vanity...a construct of man to "help" to make an order of God's already order...with many eyes cleansed.


----------



## Ruger#3

4HAND said:


> We didn't serve communion.



I ask as some faiths don’t serve communion at regular services as a practice. My church has a communion service each Sunday. I will be glad when church and life return to something more familiar.


----------



## 7 point

SemperFiDawg said:


> That was a major concern I had wondered about.  If the kids get out of the car and co-mingle, all is for naught.


We just had our first drive in church sunday it went smooth everyone stayed in there car .


----------



## 4HAND

Ruger#3 said:


> I ask as some faiths don’t serve communion at regular services as a practice. My church has a communion service each Sunday. I will be glad when church and life return to something more familiar.


Although we have communion, we do not serve communion at every service.


----------



## Ruger#3

4HAND said:


> Although we have communion, we do not serve communion at every service.



Neither do we, Sundays are Sunday School followed by services with communion, later, evening services no communion.


----------



## 7 point

4HAND said:


> Although we have communion, we do not serve communion at every service.


Same here were southern Baptist we have it every quarter.


----------



## 4HAND

Church of God here.


----------



## Ruger#3

North American Anglican


----------



## NCHillbilly

Most of the Baptist churches I have attended only did it once or twice a year.


----------



## gemcgrew

Self Righteous Baptist Church


----------



## 7 point

4HAND said:


> Church of God here.


My dad was raised Pentecostal.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

I wonder if someone asks at a time down the road a ways, maybe a year or two:

"I feel all my spiritual needs are being met by attending church online, is attending in person really essential or important in the Christian life?"

How many folks here would be comfortable with the answer, "You are right, in-person church attendance is not important or essential.  All the needs of a Christian, even immature Christians can be met through online ministries."



j_seph said:


> I worry about those who are "Saved" but the only way they can feel the spirit, worship, or draw nigh to God requires them to be gathered together with others. Makes one question what spirit they are feeling.



That is something of a "strawman" argument, as I have heard no one say that this is the "only way" anyone can "feel the spirit, worship, or draw nigh to God" but only that some may find benefit in doing so and should be at liberty in Christ to do so if they choose.

Over emphasis on horizontal relationships often indicates a weakness in faith.  Yet the Bible includes many strong exhortations regarding how Christians are to relate to each other.

My Bible tells me to bear with others who may be weak in faith and who may need to do things differently from me.


----------



## j_seph

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I wonder if someone asks at a time down the road a ways, maybe a year or two:
> 
> "I feel all my spiritual needs are being met by attending church online, is attending in person really essential or important in the Christian life?"
> 
> How many folks here would be comfortable with the answer, "You are right, in-person church attendance is not important or essential.  All the needs of a Christian, even immature Christians can be met through online ministries."
> 
> 
> 
> That is something of a "strawman" argument, as I have heard no one say that this is the "only way" anyone can "feel the spirit, worship, or draw nigh to God" but only that some may find benefit in doing so and should be at liberty in Christ to do so if they choose.
> 
> Over emphasis on horizontal relationships often indicates a weakness in faith.  Yet the Bible includes many strong exhortations regarding how Christians are to relate to each other.
> 
> My Bible tells me to bear with others who may be weak in faith and who may need to do things differently from me.





LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I don't see worship by Christians any differently.  But I do realize we are also called to evangelize, and I don't pretend there are not plenty of unsaved people in the audience.  *The presentation needs to hold their attention well enough to get through to their hearts.*
> 
> The key thing that needs to happen for the lost to worship in spirit and in truth is that they need to be saved.  Since "faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the word of God" *that need is best met by keeping them listening for the whole duration of the message.  Most online Christian services are not very good at keeping the unsaved listening for very long.*
> 
> God is the audience of worship.  People are the audience in evangelism.  The work of the church includes both.
> 
> But one would also be in error to assume all music and singing is only to God even among Christians.  For the book says,
> 
> "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."


The way I read your post here is that it is all about the presentation to hold their attention to get through to their hearts. As a preacher you are to preach Gods word that he gives you when he tells you. Only then will it reach the heart. It is not the preacher, the presentation that reaches the heart but the Lord himself. If the unsaved is convicted it does not matter if they listen to the entire message or not. It may only take one sentence out of an hour long sermon they hear to bring conviction. Again it is the Lord not the man that did it. They may go a week or two before they humble themselves and get saved. Where was the preacher man at that moment? I am not advocating online service and I do feel we need to gather when it is safe to do so. Charity (Love) which is the greatest commandment is better felt not shown and during these time we can still show that love to others from 6 foot apart to 1000 miles apart. I know a man who got saved in the floor of a milk truck he drove. Not because he was listening to preaching but because the Lord stirred in his heart from a message that week. I know a lady who got saved on the side of the road, she was not listening to preaching on the radio either. It is not about man doing anything other than being obedient and following the Lord. Mans presentation, preaching, and teaching are not going to do it if the Lord ain't in it and I do not mean just by mentioning his name. 
So if the Lord cannot reach the unsaved because the presentation long enough to keep their attention through a whole service, how can those who are saved worship and feel Gods spirit through the same message? Same God same spirit reaches both or it doesn't.


----------



## Israel

This is a re-post from Mar 27, 2009, Thread "Has God ever spoken to you?" #39


One wonderful thing about knowing Jesus is that God is able to speak to you through what he speaks to others. In other words, when you hear someone relate in truth what they've received from the Lord, it can just as easily fill you with the same wonder they experienced.
Just as your story about Ramblin' Man.
Here's one of my favorites, right up there with the things the Lord has spoken personally to me.
While staying with my mother many years ago we needed the refrigerator repaired.
As the repairman tinkered and diagnosed with me watching in the kitchen, I got around to asking him if he knew the Lord.
He set his tools down and began to tell my mother (also a believer) and I the following story:
Some years before, he'd had a fellow worker that had been sharing the gospel with him, and despite his protests and derision, the believer prevailed upon this fellow (Ken) to take a bible from him.
One night out of boredom he opened the bible and began to read but was finding himself more and more angered as he read and resenting the whole idea of Jesus. He tossed the bible out the front door in his yard.
The next morning he was feeling a bit remorseful because, as he said "I'm a reader and it was still a book, and I didn't like the idea of treating a book that way, even if it was just a bible" So he went out in the yard to retrieve it and discovered, despite a pouring rain the night before, it remained dry. Ken said he was puzzled but didn't think all too much of it.
He said that on his way to work that morning he was feeling especially hostile to the whole notion of God and was cursing and shaking his fist out the window, he continued railing until he went to pick up his schedule of appointments for that day.
He went to his first appointment on Green St in Hudson, New York. He was met at the door by a woman in a robe who had no idea why he was there. She denied needing an appliance repaired.
"Isn't this (some number) Green Street?" Ken asked.
"No" the woman replied, "this is (some entirely different number) Dodge St." (or something).
As he looks down at his order and wonders how he got both the number _and_ street wrong, he apologizes and prepares to walk away.
As he is doing so the woman sees his name tag on his shirt and says "Are you Ken...the repairmen that works for blah blah blah?
"yes maam" he says.
She invites him in and begins to walk toward the bedroom, telling Ken to come follow her.
Ken says "I'm thinking uh oh, I got a _live one_ here."
She walks with him into the bedroom and steps over to the nightstand and opens the bible laying there.
She takes out a piece of paper and shows it to him.
It shows his name on her prayer list, to "pray for Ken from blah blah repair so that he might come to the Lord"
She'd been praying for him.


I won't say "needless to say" what happened in Ken's heart that day...but he finished the story by saying, "so, if you are asking me if I know Jesus brother, yes I do"

My mother and I continued to remember Ken in our prayers, and the story has always been a delight to share...and a very present reminder of how God is able to embrace both the hot and cold of us.
But is not well pleased by tepidity.


----------



## hummerpoo

Not coincidence, but Providence.


----------



## 4HAND

Now THIS is .Gov overreach! 
Democratic mayor forbidding drive in Church Easter Sunday services city wide.

https://www.toddstarnes.com/faith/l...from-holding-easter-sunday-drive-in-services/

Mayor is also asking folks to snitch on churches that don't obey his order.


----------



## 7 point

4HAND said:


> Now THIS is .Gov overreach!
> Democratic mayor forbidding drive in Church Easter Sunday services city wide.
> 
> https://www.toddstarnes.com/faith/l...from-holding-easter-sunday-drive-in-services/
> 
> Mayor is also asking folks to snitch on churches that don't obey his order.


Sounds a little bit like communist to me .


----------



## 4HAND

Yeah. I'm all about common sense, but that's ridiculous.


----------



## Mike 65

Awesome story Mr. Israel!


----------



## Israel

Mike 65 said:


> Awesome story Mr. Israel!



Yes, I found it so, too.

But what I'd hoped to be seen is how a man (even like me) can be brought into the testimony of another in equal delight, so that when the testimony is taken in (or vice versa) the man is taken in, received...there's an apprehension and apprehending that takes place that builds all up.
It's summed up I would think in what Paul was meaning that "when one is honored all are honored."

Likewise, when one suffers...we all suffer.

The ministry of the spirit is toward us at all times. Whether we be gathered in one place, separated by continents, in jail in isolation, alone on a life raft. Our Lord is not made "more accessible" by anything of material consequence, nor can anything in all creation make Him less. For us, to us, to be manifest in us and through us that His name be glorified, which for us has been made salvation.
Are there benefits to our gathering? Yes, if indeed we are listening for the spirit.

Can there be harm? Read then what Paul has to say.

There is "no thing" made life to us, only the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus was quite clear about the where, when, and how of worship. "Neither in Jerusalem nor upon this mountain" ..."the time is coming and now is"..."spirit and truth".

Is there provision for what are called the gifts of ministry through men..."till we all come to a perfect man"? No doubt...but such are distributed as to those wholly devoted to, if you will, "working themselves out of a job"...knowing the only necessary One is already given, active and abiding. And all callings are only to the end of this recognition.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

4HAND said:


> Yeah. I'm all about common sense, but that's ridiculous.



Quashing drive-in church services on a large scale seems to be the broadest and most obvious trampling for 1st Amendment rights without anything even close to a justification of necessity from the declared medical emergency.  All the relevant court rulings demand that emergency suspensions of Constitutional rights need to be narrowly tailored, absolutely necessary, and not targeting a single group (like churches).  This one fails on all counts.

But as the government overreaches to COVID-19 move forward, I also anticipate churches to get the short end of the deal in many states and liberal jurisdictions when it comes time to phase back in re-openings of various aspects of life and human interactions.  Public schools will probably absolutely last, since that can be delayed until August.  But many hearts will be revealed when we see whether churches are re-opened before or after liquor stores, gun stores, concerts, sporting events, political rallies, and less-essential businesses.  Constitutionally protected activities should be at the head of the line.


----------



## Madman

Ruger#3 said:


> North American Anglican


Anglican Province of North America.


----------



## Ruger#3

Madman said:


> Anglican Province of North America.



http://www.anglicanchurch.net/


----------



## Madman

Ruger#3 said:


> http://www.anglicanchurch.net/



I've known Foley Beach since he was a youth pastor for Michael Youssef.
Keep the faith.  Easter will be here soon and hopefully we will be able to have Mass again soon also.


----------



## Ruger#3

Madman said:


> I've known Foley Beach since he was a youth pastor for Michael Youssef.
> Keep the faith.  Easter will be here soon and hopefully we will be able to have Mass again soon also.



I like him, he baptized me.
Attended his investiture as Arch Bishop as well.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

Finally a court ruling upholding the 1st Amendment in light of overreaching government orders to cancel church:

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/4...e-church-says-mayors-ban-on-drive-in-services


----------



## 4HAND

@LittleDrummerBoy, this thread might interest you. 
https://forum.gon.com/threads/which-states-towns-counties.965556/


----------



## brownceluse

To be honest I hope this Covid 19 hurts the mega churches. Don’t take that out of context either. These pastors and evangelist living the life of luxury needs a little faith check. This streaming to 200,000 on line is joke. They’re all over the TV anyway. Big business churches are going to be in trouble and I think that’s a great thing. God, never intended it that way. Maybe a little less revenue regardless of the big auditorium is paid for or not is going to crush the large staffs and lavish spending habits. Not one pastor in this country has ever had to make a decision about canceling services like they’ve had to recently. So no way to bash anyone about that. Big business churches with big budgets are about to fall. It’s high time as well! Sifting of the wheat so to speak or these millionaires in the pulpits will come back to the real message of the cross or go bankrupt. Because the most of them have been spiritually bankrupt for a long time.


----------



## 7 point

We had another drive through service today it went good instead of saying amen folks honked there horns .


----------



## 4HAND

7 point said:


> We had another drive through service today it went good instead of saying amen folks honked there horns .


We did the same. Had about 220 in attendance.


----------



## 7 point

4HAND said:


> We did the same. Had about 220 in attendance.


We didn't have that many but were a smaller church


----------



## NE GA Pappy

our church this morning.


----------



## 4HAND

NE GA Pappy said:


> our church this morning.


That white truck in the far left corner was keeping it's distance. ?


----------



## NE GA Pappy

4HAND said:


> That white truck in the far left corner was keeping it's distance. ?



he's just normally anti-social.


----------



## 4HAND

NE GA Pappy said:


> he's just normally anti-social.


You have a nice truck Pappy.... ??


----------



## Havana Dude

Back row baptists. That’s exactly where the wife and I would be.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

It's encouraging to see churches still meeting.  Thanks for sharing.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

j_seph said:


> The way I read your post here is that it is all about the presentation to hold their attention to get through to their hearts. As a preacher you are to preach Gods word that he gives you when he tells you. Only then will it reach the heart. It is not the preacher, the presentation that reaches the heart but the Lord himself. If the unsaved is convicted it does not matter if they listen to the entire message or not. It may only take one sentence out of an hour long sermon they hear to bring conviction. Again it is the Lord not the man that did it. They may go a week or two before they humble themselves and get saved. Where was the preacher man at that moment? I am not advocating online service and I do feel we need to gather when it is safe to do so. Charity (Love) which is the greatest commandment is better felt not shown and during these time we can still show that love to others from 6 foot apart to 1000 miles apart. I know a man who got saved in the floor of a milk truck he drove. Not because he was listening to preaching but because the Lord stirred in his heart from a message that week. I know a lady who got saved on the side of the road, she was not listening to preaching on the radio either. It is not about man doing anything other than being obedient and following the Lord. Mans presentation, preaching, and teaching are not going to do it if the Lord ain't in it and I do not mean just by mentioning his name.
> So if the Lord cannot reach the unsaved because the presentation long enough to keep their attention through a whole service, how can those who are saved worship and feel Gods spirit through the same message? Same God same spirit reaches both or it doesn't.



Very, very well said Sir.


----------



## j_seph

Heard of 2 saved , one at Solid Rock in Cleveland yesterday morning drive in service and one at at Canaan Baptist in Gville from Internet service. SUrprisingly they do not do no smoke, light show, and such to keep folks entertained to keep their attention.


----------



## Throwback

Here’s a pastor that defied the government 

He died of corona virus 

https://trib.al/MTr2SXe


----------



## Mexican Squealer

What a moron


----------



## kmh1031

I go back to my original post on this several threads back
Christians are commanded to obey the superior authorities (as long as they do not interfere with Gods law)  and also to remember the 2nd greatest commandment: love ur neighbor....and showing up and mingling is doing neither 

A Christian who is not adhering to these commands may be on the outside looking in.

Zoom, video recordings of the service
Phone call in all work to worship today.


----------



## Artfuldodger

4HAND said:


> That white truck in the far left corner was keeping it's distance. ?


I know this is a serious thread but that few posts about the truck and back row Baptist and keeping the distance is the funniest, most good nature thing I've seen all day.


----------



## 4HAND

Artfuldodger said:


> I know this is a serious thread but that few posts about the truck and back row Baptist and keeping the distance is the funniest, most good nature thing I've seen all day.


Every now & then a little humor really helps in these very serious times.


----------



## NCHillbilly

Throwback said:


> Here’s a pastor that defied the government
> 
> He died of corona virus
> 
> https://trib.al/MTr2SXe


That is sad. And so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so so, so very stupid. I wonder how many of his congregation have it now? The Lord gave us more sense than that. That's pride and stubbornness, not sanctity. And the blood of every one of his congregation who dies is on his hands when he meets the Lord.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

Yep.  Being in a religious building or meeting confers no special protection against the virus.  However, neither does being in Walmart.  As I've said before, the same common sense social distancing considerations that can protect one from COVID-19 while shopping for dinner, or fishing, or buying a gun, or visiting the range also work just as well in meetings of the church.

Staying in a car, for example, even exceeds all the recommended social distancing requirements.  Likewise, the services I've attended since "social distancing" became a thing have been much more careful to observe social distancing rules than what I've seen in retail establishments, at the boat ramp, on the lake, or at the gun range.

Sure, there may be some churches ignoring the social distancing requirements.  As the saying goes, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

But do you want your hunting and fishing rights infringed, because of the stupid things other people did while hunting or fishing?  If someone catches COVID-19 doing stupid stuff while on the lake, is this a justification for closing all the lakes?  If someone catches COVID-19 doing stupid stuff at the gun store, is this a justification for closing all the gun stores?


----------



## NCHillbilly

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Yep.  Being in a religious building or meeting confers no special protection against the virus.  However, neither does being in Walmart.  As I've said before, the same common sense social distancing considerations that can protect one from COVID-19 while shopping for dinner, or fishing, or buying a gun, or visiting the range also work just as well in meetings of the church.
> 
> Staying in a car, for example, even exceeds all the recommended social distancing requirements.  Likewise, the services I've attended since "social distancing" became a thing have been much more careful to observe social distancing rules than what I've seen in retail establishments, at the boat ramp, on the lake, or at the gun range.
> 
> Sure, there may be some churches ignoring the social distancing requirements.  As the saying goes, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
> 
> But do you want your hunting and fishing rights infringed, because of the stupid things other people did while hunting or fishing?  If someone catches COVID-19 doing stupid stuff while on the lake, is this a justification for closing all the lakes?  If someone catches COVID-19 doing stupid stuff at the gun store, is this a justification for closing all the gun stores?


If enough stupid people keep doing all the above and refuse to not do it, then yes. At least that's the way the government sees it.


----------



## 7 point

We are doing our deacons meeting on zoom this week .


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

NCHillbilly said:


> If enough stupid people keep doing all the above and refuse to not do it, then yes. At least that's the way the government sees it.



Oppressive governments see it that way, and if people keep voting them in, they picked their poison.

Texas Governor Greg Abbott, in contrast, has refused to order churches to close or to close gun stores or wildlife access or groceries.  Yet, Texas has one of the lost COVID-19 infection rates of all 50 states (currently 49 cases per 100,000 residents).  

Government oppression is not needed to beat COVID-19.


----------



## kmh1031

Oppression, protection, common sense, for the good of many? 
Personally I don’t see this at all as oppression...


----------



## SemperFiDawg

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Oppressive governments see it that way, and if people keep voting them in, they picked their poison.
> 
> Texas Governor Greg Abbott, in contrast, has refused to order churches to close or to close gun stores or wildlife access or groceries.  Yet, Texas has one of the lost COVID-19 infection rates of all 50 states (currently 49 cases per 100,000 residents).
> 
> Government oppression is not needed to beat COVID-19.



Texas you say?


----------



## Nicodemus

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Oppressive governments see it that way, and if people keep voting them in, they picked their poison.
> 
> Texas Governor Greg Abbott, in contrast, has refused to order churches to close or to close gun stores or wildlife access or groceries.  Yet, Texas has one of the lost COVID-19 infection rates of all 50 states (currently 49 cases per 100,000 residents).
> 
> Government oppression is not needed to beat COVID-19.




Maybe if the sick preacher with the infected wife had stayed home in Atlanta instead of coming down here and attending two funerals, thereby contaminating who knows how many innocent people, then possibly Albany would not be the Covid-19 hotspot that it is. And maybe none of those innocent people would be dead now. And maybe our x cases per x residents would compare to Texas. But it doesnt, because some people don``t have the decency to stay home and away from folks when they are sick.


----------



## Israel

Learning the lessons of our relatedness may be painful, no, must be...but cannot be escaped in Jesus Christ. And because they are of Christ, they are good, no matter what we may endure, and have to, to learn them.

"Am I my brother's keeper?" one asked when being queried after handing his own, and only, brother over to death. Did he think that ridding himself of his brother would rid him of a particular "set" of sufferings he believed his brother's presence provoked, not find that he had now, by taking matters into his own hands inherit an whole other and fuller _set of griefs? _

Had not mercy prevailed, even there, and _for that_, the lesson in part (or whole indeed) may be, regardless of man's wickedness so profoundly captivating in the depths of its darkness, it is always an infinitely better and healthy thing to look upon God's mercy.
But, we must admit, we could not see it if God does not  choose to show it.

Even if God is all purposed to mercy, and yet had not purposed to reveal it, who could know? He could stay behind the curtain with no man able to "make Him show Himself". There is mercy in God...and the further mercy of seeking to make it known to man.

Only God knows of "not being". We, who have never known anything _except being_, cannot fathom it. God has mercy upon what in that presumption assumes to itself _right to be. _Until we are made able to see, by that mercy, that our being is not of our self ordained, not of our self preserved, not of our self in origin _at all,_ we in mind remain quite separate from God, and locked up to our own presumptuousness.

We go about in what we perceive as our own _right to be_, neither knowing God, and therefore not our selves, nor_ any other soul_. We may make all manner of contentions amongst ourselves in regards to rights, even those we claim for (or against) one another, but such argument before God is not only futile, but eminently silly.

All thence is only gift and can only be received thus...even to those matters we may declare to one another as right, and God will make plain, yes, even more than so; that even if in darkest delusion we consider all other men "less than ourselves" in being, there remains One, of God, who cannot be esteemed so. Men are broken upon that One.

The wisest man, the most intelligent man, the most perspicacious and thoughtful man (as men compare themselves) must find when he meets_ that man_, that he has met all that will not suffer comparison. Do we see? Among us there are those who "smarter", those who are more attentive or more studious, elder, more intelligent by whatever metric, industrious...yes, even pious in most severe practice...and may succumb to whatever measure to that temptation that being so, others may be safely surveyed...as less.

There is actually, in the earth today walking a man that does have the "highest" IQ. There is one who has given more of his substance than any other. One with more degrees than any other. There is one found on his knees longer than any other. There is one with the finest chess playing sort of mind that sees a bit further in "moves"...than any other, able to look down the corridor of "yes and no" with greater accuracy than any other. And regardless of this, there are those of us here who believe with all their hearts...they _see rightly. _And so here we contend with one another, making our cases for not only what we should do, but every other as well.

"What will this man do?" is a not unusual default estate. Until...

This fellow sums it up well:

“Some of these days, there are just going to be two people alive on this earth as far as you are concerned...

You and the Lord.” Rolfe Barnard

This breaks a man as it must. It cannot but be so. Till then he may get away with seeing others as "trees" walking, see others as something less in being than ourselves. But when this Being is met, touched, or spoken from to the man, he begins to learn of the terrors of "not being" for he knows then, he is "not that". _That man_ only has _right to be._ He alone has secured in His right handling of gift, being made willing to receive "This _command _have I received of my Father".

All previous standing "among others" is swept away as not only silly, but now, condemnable, da*nable. A man has touched, or been touched by all of Being. Not creature as we might think, but One made willing to appear so. And if one finds the grace, is made able to receive the grace to believe this, and discover his own being is gift, now made able to be received, he finds that any or every he has ever considered less by whatever measure or metric his self centered eye has esteemed...others are now given to him...as gift. All of gift working to show the man _that man._

Our esteem, of even gifts, must get worked out properly. Our..."but what will this man do?" must be dealt with. We fear "not being joined" by our own consensual agreements. But our joining is not of our consent, not based upon our own agreements. It is all and only based upon our being joined in Him, regardless of how the outworking of that appears. "what is that to you...? You, follow me..."

We taste, in smallest part at times...as shadow...what it means to feel "cut off". He drained that cup. We must be brought to ask...why? Why endure what of all men, and _only of all men,_ you endured what you alone had_ all right..._to not endure? How "are" you Lord? What _is _your substance?

There is always this if we consider death.

The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth _it_ to heart: and merciful men _are_ taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil _to come_.

The writer Cormac McCarthy (The Sunset Limited, No Country for Old Men, All the Pretty Horses, The Road...etc) put it in a sort of other way. A _worldly way,_ so that perhaps even worldlings might reach...

No man knows what worse luck his bad luck has saved him from.

The only cure for fear of death that looms so very large to man, that very seeming terrible place from which "not being" seems to throw its rays of darkness onto the light of our stage, must be replaced, and can only be, by a fear greater. Who could ever, would ever believe this? The way is by replacing a terrible fear...by one even more terrible? Or having it replaced? No, no, no, a thousand times ...no.

"Do not fear those who (or what can) kill the body..."

"But I will show you whom you should fear..."

Paul said..."knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men..."

Jesus brought him (Paul) to the place he promised...of showing. That same grace that brings to, is the same grace that relieves. But we must be brought. The mouth of the Lord has spoken. Jesus will show...

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved..."

We are all "of one" in our relationship in this. We can pray for one another, and are, even as gift to and for one another, told to. But unless this is received as gift as each of His commandments are to eternal life...we will find even a most blessed thing...difficult...even painful as to "our own death".

We will meet a demanding one there, the one accusing...seeking to exact a payment, seeking to have what he claims as his, as _his right_. I cannot not say I can show myself immune...but have been allowed glimpse of what _I cannot afford to lose_, is all.

Satan has demanded to sift you as wheat...but...I have prayed for you...

It appears we are left with, and in the blessed place of no choice...(for those who have, and are learning the dread burden of _trying to make_ the right choice)...we must be told...what to choose.

I once betrayed this brother in my "wanting to be something", but was restored...and restored in such a miraculous way by the "way of grace" that he knew, and I had yet to see. His arms were never closed to me, nor his lips ever withheld from me. The way of the Lord is unchanging.

I am not ashamed to call him "my father in the faith", nor am I ashamed of the grace that has made it necessary for me to confess my own betrayal. Grace is able to steal a thing that would otherwise be unbearable...to bear. It's found in the most terrible eyes we shall ever behold. And there to be found...if we do not draw back.

The intelligent man must be broken by its simplicity, the wise man by its foolishness, the man with much so called experience by its knowing. The good man by its rebuke. The boasting man by its terror.


----------



## Nicodemus

@Israel   ^^    Can you translate that so a simple man can understand it? In a paragraph or less.


----------



## Israel

Do whatever He tells you.


----------



## Jester896

NCHillbilly said:


> I wonder how many of his congregation have it now?



probably like the chicken plant in SD...all 400+ there


----------



## j_seph

Nicodemus said:


> Maybe if the sick preacher with the infected wife had stayed home in Atlanta instead of coming down here and attending two funerals, thereby contaminating who knows how many innocent people, then possibly Albany would not be the Covid-19 hotspot that it is. And maybe none of those innocent people would be dead now. And maybe our x cases per x residents would compare to Texas. But it doesnt, because some people don``t have the decency to stay home and away from folks when they are sick.


Did that preacher pass away that brought that into the funeral home? If not I would imagine he is going to have a rough life knowing he was patient 0


----------



## Nicodemus

j_seph said:


> Did that preacher pass away that brought that into the funeral home? If not I would imagine he is going to have a rough life knowing he was patient 0




He died from the Covid-19.


----------



## j_seph

https://www.walb.com/2020/04/14/jus...zNQOS5HQFbi_RG0xlV6GIxbvMpo9qMZ2c0B-D1gjglc6k


----------



## gemcgrew

Nicodemus said:


> Maybe if the sick preacher with the infected wife had stayed home in Atlanta instead of coming down here and attending two funerals, thereby contaminating who knows how many innocent people, then possibly Albany would not be the Covid-19 hotspot that it is. And maybe none of those innocent people would be dead now. And maybe our x cases per x residents would compare to Texas. But it doesnt, because some people don``t have the decency to stay home and away from folks when they are sick.


Tell us more about those innocent people.


----------



## Nicodemus

gemcgrew said:


> Tell us more about those innocent people.




What kind of question is that? 

I`m sure they didn`t go t that funeral expecting to catch something that would kill them very soon.


----------



## Jester896

I'd bet none of the 80 innocent people here expected to die in that fashion...nor did their spouses and children...I remember the ER Doc holding back tears when the mother survived and the 27 year old daughter didn't.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

COVID-19 Kills 30 Grocery Store Workers

Walmart Sued over COVID-19 Death


----------



## NCHillbilly

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> COVID-19 Kills 30 Grocery Store Workers
> 
> Walmart Sued over COVID-19 Death


Exactly, don't go gather up at church or anywhere else when you don't have to and then go infect the workers at the grocery store and Walmart, and the other people who have to go get groceries. And if you work at the grocery store, don't go gather up at church or anywhere else. Church members don't just go to church. They go everywhere and work everywhere. And by gathering up in a group, they are greatly increasing their risk of becoming infected. It is a definite pattern nationwide. Another recent outbreak in a county near here has been confirmed to have started at a church service and spread to the community.


----------



## 4HAND

There is foolishness on both sides of this -
Pastors & church members who are recklessly endangering themselves & others by rebelling against "best practices" suggested and/or mandated by gov.
Example - Pastor who conducted "business as usual" & died from Covid-19.

Gov including LEO (mainly local) who are punishing Pastors & church members who are trying to assemble together safely in spite of ridiculous local orders.
Example - Greenville police at the direction of their mayor, ticketing folks who attended a DRIVE IN church service.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

NCHillbilly said:


> Church members don't just go to church. They go everywhere and work everywhere. And by gathering up in a group, they are greatly increasing their risk of becoming infected. It is a definite pattern nationwide. Another recent outbreak in a county near here has been confirmed to have started at a church service and spread to the community.



The deception that keeps being repeated is that there is inherent risk in gathering, regardless of whether social distancing guidelines are carefully followed.  People staying in their cars at drive-in church services are not at risk for transmitting COVID-19.

But having visited Walmart yesterday, I witnessed first hand numerous occasions where both staff and customers failed to maintain social distancing guidelines.  In contrast, in my last visits to church (one drive-in service, and one inside service), folks did an excellent job maintaining social distancing guidelines.

Gathering is not an inherent problem.  Violating the social distancing guidelines is the problem.  At Walmart (and other retail stores) handling common objects AND coming within the 6 foot distance happens repeatedly.  Walmart associates are stepping out from behind their clear shields over and over again in just a few minute span.


----------



## Israel




----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

Professor Yitzhak Ben Israel has mathematically shown us that coronavirus closures were a mistake. It's a tough reality. Americans lost their jobs and businesses went under because the United States, along with most first world nations, acted on the chilling predictions of a severely flawed model, a reading of Professor Ferguson’s tarot cards.

https://townhall.com/columnists/mar...or-shows-virus-follows-fixed-pattern-n2566915


----------



## 4HAND

On a brighter note -
Mississippi mayor nixes ban on drive-in services after DOJ intervention

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/mississippi-mayor-nixes-ban-drive-in-services-doj-intervention


----------



## mattuga

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Professor Yitzhak Ben Israel has mathematically shown us that coronavirus closures were a mistake. It's a tough reality. Americans lost their jobs and businesses went under because the United States, along with most first world nations, acted on the chilling predictions of a severely flawed model, a reading of Professor Ferguson’s tarot cards.
> 
> https://townhall.com/columnists/mar...or-shows-virus-follows-fixed-pattern-n2566915



You'll listen to anyone who supports your ideology.  I'll take Covid-19 advice from medical Dr's and not a mathematician.


----------



## Jester896

I believe the numbers a flawed myself...until this is ova imma roll like I am...cautious


----------



## Nicodemus

Jester896 said:


> I believe the numbers a flawed myself...until this is ova imma roll like I am...cautious




We had a to make a quick run down to the Seminole cabin this morning, and for the first time in 6 weeks we went to actual town. Rode the full length of Slappey Drive. Folks were carrying on like there wasn`t any virus out there. I don`t look to go back any time in the forseeable future. I surely haven`t lost anything there.


----------



## Jester896

Hard to believe...on the Dawson Rd there is little traffic...wouldn't think it was 1/3 of normal.  I had to run by Lowe's to pick up a tool Wednesday and I don't see it that busy on Saturdays..crazy stuff.  Most everyone I see are wearing masks...well the mom and one of the young children were but the baby wasn't


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

mattuga said:


> You'll listen to anyone who supports your ideology.  I'll take Covid-19 advice from medical Dr's and not a mathematician.



I have not heard any medical doctors explain how drive-in church services present a risk of COVID-19 transmission, or even how maintaining social distancing and respiratory hygiene rule inside a church somehow present a greater transmission risk than inside a Walmart.

My wife attended Harvard medical school, and my (adult) daughter is an epidemiologist who has worked at the CDC.  They both think the forced closing of churches is unnecessary and ridiculous.   

As I've said a number of times, COVID-19 is spread through failures to maintain social distancing and failures of respiratory hygiene.  I saw many more of those failures in the 2nd Amendment area of Academy sports than I saw in my last trip to church.


----------



## Ruger#3

Common sense isn’t so common these days. From the preacher holding open services to the person belly aching about the burden of precautions there’s foolishness on both extremes. How inconvenient to use sanitizer after you pump your gas or walk one way through the store aisles to protect yourself and your neighbor. Gone is tolerance, self is omnipotent.

“Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful."


----------



## Israel

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I have not heard any medical doctors explain how drive-in church services present a risk of COVID-19 transmission, or even how maintaining social distancing and respiratory hygiene rule inside a church somehow present a greater transmission risk than inside a Walmart.
> 
> My wife attended Harvard medical school, and my (adult) daughter is an epidemiologist who has worked at the CDC.  They both think the forced closing of churches is unnecessary and ridiculous.
> 
> As I've said a number of times, COVID-19 is spread through failures to maintain social distancing and failures of respiratory hygiene.  I saw many more of those failures in the 2nd Amendment area of Academy sports than I saw in my last trip to church.



I once asked a Doc with whom I had worked for 12 years...(and maybe you know some folks like this...the kind that skip High School and go right into college at 14, and Yale Med at 18)

"Do you find the brilliant more plagued by the abysmally ignorant or the _relatively intelligent?"_

He laughed and said..."but don't underestimate the ability of abysmally ignorant".


----------



## Israel

Now all being said by experts; all models, projections, statistics, recommendations, calculations...this remains:

Are there _any_ among the vanities of the Gentiles that can cause rain? or can the heavens give showers? _art_ not thou he, O LORD our God? therefore we will wait upon thee: for thou hast made all these _things_.


----------



## 4HAND

We're continuing with drive in services until things are "opened up". We have an FM channel that transmits throughout the property (37 acres) so folks can spread out.

When things "open up" & we move back inside we're probably gonna leave the seating spread out as we had it when social distancing first began (before we started drive in services) but continue to broadcast services on FM channel too for a few more weeks, so folks that are more comfortable in their vehicles can continue to attend drive in style.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

The judge noted that the order banned church gatherings but not similar public activities like crowds at airports or industrial facilities, violating both the First Amendment and a state religious freedom law, the paper reported.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/judge-halts-kansas-gov-kelly-order-limiting-church-gatherings-10


----------



## Israel

There'll always be freedom of religion. It's the faith that manifests the Son of God that can't be tolerated.


----------



## j_seph

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I have not heard any medical doctors explain how drive-in church services present a risk of COVID-19 transmission, or even how maintaining social distancing and respiratory hygiene rule inside a church somehow present a greater transmission risk than inside a Walmart.
> 
> My wife attended Harvard medical school, and my (adult) daughter is an epidemiologist who has worked at the CDC.  *They both think the forced closing of churches is unnecessary and ridiculous.  *
> 
> As I've said a number of times, COVID-19 is spread through failures to maintain social distancing and failures of respiratory hygiene.  I saw many more of those failures in the 2nd Amendment area of Academy sports than I saw in my last trip to church.


I still do not see any Churches being forced to close. For the church to close all of those who are the church would have to be dead. Beware, the CHURCH has left the building.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

j_seph said:


> I still do not see any Churches being forced to close. For the church to close all of those who are the church would have to be dead. Beware, the CHURCH has left the building.



Time will tell.  It's easy to pretend in the midst of a protracted situation that the discipleship effectiveness during this time is at least as good as it is when meetings occur in person.  But most churches in Hall County have just passed the 6 week mark with most of their assemblies cancelled completely or moved online.  One prominent local pastor has expressed that it is like ministering with "one hand tied behind his back."  A number of friends and family members have observed challenges relating to effective online discipleship.  If this stretches out 4-6 more weeks, I see there being longer term negative effects from ineffective discipleship.

Sure, there will be living Christians left in N Georgia when this is over.  But I suspect porn use and alcohol abuse will be trending upward among church goers, and giving will be trending sharply downward.  Most of the online discipleship I've seen from local churches has been one-way streets - with worship and teaching flowing from the established ministries to their audience and requests for money from the established ministries as the dominant flow expected from the attendees to the established ministries.  Sure, there are some invitations for prayer requests and some perfunctory check-ins about "how are you doing?"  But there are relatively few opportunities for deeper discussions of Bible study questions or counseling issues.

The discipleship demonstrated in Scripture is most often real two-way communication where people can be real in sharing their hopes, concerns, sins, dreams, and fears and where those making disciples listen carefully and prayerfully and resist giving "pat" Christianese answers in favor of waiting for the Holy Spirit to speak to the heart.  I'm not saying this more powerful ministry has been turned all the way to zero in the current circumstance.  But I and folks close to me have observed churches are not doing nearly as good a job of it in recent online ministry efforts as they usually do in person.


----------



## j_seph

> Sure, there are some invitations for prayer requests and some perfunctory check-ins about "how are you doing?" But there are relatively few opportunities for deeper discussions of Bible study questions or counseling issues.


Deeper questions? Counseling issues? If someone cannot get that from their church right now then they may need to revisit some churches. Example, my wife and I were discussing a verse in revelations. We were stumped so messaged one of our preachers to call. In less than a minute phone rang and we went on for an hour and a half bible study. Thank God we are from a church and associated with churches where we are a face, a person, a brother and a sister not just a number and a value to the offering plate.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

j_seph said:


> Deeper questions? Counseling issues? If someone cannot get that from their church right now then they may need to revisit some churches. Example, my wife and I were discussing a verse in revelations. We were stumped so messaged one of our preachers to call. In less than a minute phone rang and we went on for an hour and a half bible study. Thank God we are from a church and associated with churches where we are a face, a person, a brother and a sister not just a number and a value to the offering plate.



We've observed that most churches have an inner circle where a higher level of pastoral care has been available through the meeting cancellations.  Usually one is admitted to the inner circle through some combination of spiritual maturity, membership, tithing, and service.  But this trend tends to exclude those who need the higher level of pastoral care the most.

The bigger issue is what level of care and attention is afforded to the outer circle.  Suppose someone acted in accordance with your advice of looking for a new church when they realized they had unmet needs within the past few weeks.  Having never attended a church in person, what level of pastoral care would they receive in response to that first call, email, text, or electronic communication?  The unsaved, non-tithers, and less mature believers are in the greatest need of pastoral care since the COVID-19 outbreak.

Consider Jesus' interaction with the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4.  She was the perfect example of someone in the outermost circle.  Over the past few weeks, many churches are better described here:

For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? - James 2:2-5


----------



## j_seph

That is why many have left church, Inner and Outer circles. That falls under 
Matthew 7 
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

On the one hand, I am discouraged that so many folks think government permission is needed for churches to assemble in person.

On the other hand, I am encouraged that Gov Kemp is granting churches permission to assemble in groups over 10, beginning Monday, as long as social distancing guidelines are followed.

I think churches in other states may have to endure a higher level of government oppression for longer.


----------



## j_seph

I am going to leave this here, maybe as an example and maybe for one or two extra prayers.
It is about a little boy whose name is Jayden, he is 9 years old. His mom, dad, granny and great granny go to church with us. All of this worry and talk about government controlling church functions, drive in church, online services instead of church gatherings to me is getting to the point of placing a band-aid over a splinter without removing the splinter. It covers up the booboo, yet it does not remove the splinter. Anyhow back to Jayden. He climbed up in bed with his mama earlier this week and straight up told her he was scared. She told him not to be scared and asked what was wrong. He said "with the Corona and all and me not being saved". This little boy in my opinion has been convicted, he knows something has got to change in his life. He is scared and I do believe he has lost that innocence he was born with. We cannot save him only Jesus can. I am sure he is not the only one in this same situation right now. So any that can find time, pray for him, his family and all the others in the same boat right now for Salvation. Quit worrying about the band-aid to cover the booboo, get the splinter out. There are lost people dying and going to H3LL while we worry about should we or should we not gather in church, parking lots, or watch service online.


----------



## j_seph

Also, I was working on the Jeep last Wed and our pastor went live. I plugged into the Jeep and listened loud outside. Guess what happened? My neighbor heard it that we have been inviting to church. His attention was grabbed by the gospel and the preached word. Service at the house round 2 comes this evening.


----------



## NCHillbilly

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Time will tell.  It's easy to pretend in the midst of a protracted situation that the discipleship effectiveness during this time is at least as good as it is when meetings occur in person.  But most churches in Hall County have just passed the 6 week mark with most of their assemblies cancelled completely or moved online.  One prominent local pastor has expressed that it is like ministering with "one hand tied behind his back."  A number of friends and family members have observed challenges relating to effective online discipleship.  If this stretches out 4-6 more weeks, I see there being longer term negative effects from ineffective discipleship.
> 
> Sure, there will be living Christians left in N Georgia when this is over.  But I suspect porn use and alcohol abuse will be trending upward among church goers, and giving will be trending sharply downward.  Most of the online discipleship I've seen from local churches has been one-way streets - with worship and teaching flowing from the established ministries to their audience and requests for money from the established ministries as the dominant flow expected from the attendees to the established ministries.  Sure, there are some invitations for prayer requests and some perfunctory check-ins about "how are you doing?"  But there are relatively few opportunities for deeper discussions of Bible study questions or counseling issues.
> 
> The discipleship demonstrated in Scripture is most often real two-way communication where people can be real in sharing their hopes, concerns, sins, dreams, and fears and where those making disciples listen carefully and prayerfully and resist giving "pat" Christianese answers in favor of waiting for the Holy Spirit to speak to the heart.  I'm not saying this more powerful ministry has been turned all the way to zero in the current circumstance.  But I and folks close to me have observed churches are not doing nearly as good a job of it in recent online ministry efforts as they usually do in person.


Really? It's good to see that you have so much faith in your fellow Christians. A few weeks without listening to your message, and they will all be lost to the grips of porn and alcohol? Wow. Have you fallen into that trap yet? Or are you more godly than your flock? No wonder more and more people avoid the judgemental environments of the church house. It's not the porn and alcohol, it's the judgemental self-righteous accusations like this that do the trick. And the perceptions of greed. Heaven forbid that the "giving" trends downward. Wow, once more.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

NCHillbilly said:


> Really? It's good to see that you have so much faith in your fellow Christians. A few weeks without listening to your message, and they will all be lost to the grips of porn and alcohol? Wow. Have you fallen into that trap yet? Or are you more godly than your flock? No wonder more and more people avoid the judgemental environments of the church house. It's not the porn and alcohol, it's the jusdgemental self-righteous accusations like this that do the trick. And the perceptions of greed. Heaven forbid that the "giving" trends downward. Wow, once more.



I'm not under the illusion that most church goers are really born again.  The Bible commands us to judge those inside the church and to judge the fruit.


----------



## Nicodemus

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> On the one hand, I am discouraged that so many folks think government permission is needed for churches to assemble in person.
> 
> On the other hand, I am encouraged that Gov Kemp is granting churches permission to assemble in groups over 10, beginning Monday, as long as social distancing guidelines are followed.
> 
> I think churches in other states may have to endure a higher level of government oppression for longer.





"When life hands you lemons ... "


----------



## Browning Slayer

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I'm not under the illusion that most church goers are really born again.  The Bible commands us to judge those inside the church and to judge the fruit.


How much of the offering from the "not really born again" crowd does the church throw away? Is there a percentage?


----------



## NCHillbilly

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I'm not under the illusion that most church goers are really born again.  The Bible commands us to judge those inside the church and to judge the fruit.


OK then, that tells me about all I need to know. Thank God there are still a few of y'all truly righteous left to point out the faults of others. Jesus would be proud.


----------



## StriperAddict

Ok, deep breath, cuz here come the stones, ain't talkin Mick and Keith either ...  

The book of Romans says that the strength of sin is the law (aka the Mosaic Law that was nailed to the cross), and, 
when the commandment came (to Paul) sin revived and (he, Paul) died (spiritually.)  This is not a real popular topic in churches, but since the toss around of what works and what doesn't has been opened up, this may add some help.  

I'd like to think our Lord has grace available in this time of life, the Christ kind of life, the accepting kind, the real Source of godly life coming now to us without shaming the seeker or the saint.  Christ thru His love grace will build up and draw folks near, resulting living uprightly, which no power of shame and law can do. I don't think our Lord is boxed into a corner, nor do I think He can't be seen and understood, or better ... (deep breath) ... enjoyed.

Maybe because the condemning voice of law and shame in many churches will not be heard for some timenow, perhaps folks will be finding life and freedom in Christ by grace for the first time.
Yep, set free and living by His sufficiency and care, A life UNMIXED with Moses (Law) and the exhausting hamster wheel of religious performance.  I'm praying those who have left unfulfilled in church will find His life is still available now.  

!! Hmmm, what the devil wanted to use to destroy us may have just opened the door of the gospel to reach out stronger than ever.

How awesome is that ... God building His body - not by a building of brick and mortar, but by gathering the seekers, the sinners, the wrecked, the hopeful, etc., all together by use of social media. (Funny, I remember the church went ballistic over other forms of technology in the past, yet were still used well in the hands of humble believers).  

Ya'll DM me if any would like to be part of online FB meetings of open life discussions and the REST that Christ promised to the weary and heavy religiously burdened. HIS yoke _is_ easy and HIS burden _is_ light.


----------



## j_seph

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I'm not under the illusion that most church goers are really born again.  The Bible commands us to judge those inside the church and to judge the fruit.


*James 4:11* - Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

What RIGHT do you have to sit in a church and JUDGE who is saved and who is not? It is a personal relationship between you and God, not between Woodrow, you and God.


----------



## 4HAND

j_seph said:


> What RIGHT do you have to sit in a church and JUDGE who is saved and who is not? It is a personal relationship between you and God, not between Woodrow, you and God.


^^This Right Here^^


----------



## NCHillbilly

Woodrow will collect your tithes from you.


----------



## Israel

Context and perspective, though often presented as easily discernible matters, we may often discover are not as easily classified as once believed. Conditions of the soul, clear to the Lord, may not be so to mere onlookers. In such is the instruction "him who has ears to hear, let him hear!"(But there's a whole bunch out there, Lord!)

We could no doubt also do a discussion of to what or whom, or what nature of being that command is issued to submit, of what nature of being is under the Lord's command to "not interfere", to "let him" with hearing ears hear, and what is under cease and desist order by the word of Christ.

Demons, such as they are, have no power of creation. It matters not if it be universes or viruses...the smallest collection of some genetic material, not even properly described as having life. They have none. Deception and disruption is their sole MO. Things _in the creation_ may hold some power of manipulation, but the creation is neither responsible to, nor for, itself.

For quite some time (in present context) the casual onlooker might easily say "The church has certainly flourished and been flourishing in the USA and the Americas" Perspective also lends itself here to relevance...by what measure? In what, or whose eyes? What is the metric? Who holds the scales by which health is measured? Is it a numbers thing? A meetings thing? A buildings thing (many major crossroads having 4 buildings)? A number of times the name "Jesus" is mentioned?

What is "healthy" as opposed to what Paul describes as in comings together that...are not "_for the better, but for the worse?" _Can it even be so? Do we read Paul?

Is it not sufficient "and remember this Sunday, go to the church of your choice" as we used to hear as an almost PSA. Can no meetings actually be better than some (or even many) meetings? Can just meetings really...do more harm than good? Or at least...some? Whether we seek to describe any , some, many, or most as fitting that...do we at the very least accept the truth of it...not even seeking to judge "which is which"?

It is not unlike that other; of false christs and false gospels, if we do not at least admit in some agreement such can be...(unless one cares to deny the Lord's words and instructions) why would any even have appeal for discerning to the Spirit? What might a man or any learn? Would we think "it's so very hard to be deceived, truth is always so plainly obvious!"? Or, might we come to know..."unless I am kept, unless any are kept...all are lost."?

O, how the Devil so pleasures himself in getting us to accept we can be more clever than he. He seeks to engage us in that contest.


Of the many contextual considerations, especially if we do care to consider Paul (Do we read Paul?) of not only his instructions of how a healthy and orderly meeting might appear (I don't recall such detail given by any other in epistle...do you?) with instruction we cannot forgo his perspective...his _sight of things. _

Call it visionary, prophetic (it's not unusual for prophets to have visions), but nevertheless, it either is what it is to us...or we declare it something other:

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all _men_, as theirs also was.

This would be almost silly instruction if Paul was only speaking of worldlings...would it not? What believer need have it explained or expounded upon that the world is, in all, opposed to the Lord? Is Paul merely saying "the world will get worse?" Which might be rightly argued to some extent, but the world has never had much concern with appearing..."godly". Or godliness. Power? Yes! Dominion over others...surely!


But there is a thing that seeks to keep itself _of necessity _to what it can trap in "ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth"...laden with sins.


Of course this must be not only unpopular to consider but to all that is suffering such disruption as sensing their glory threatened or on the downturn by this _so called _"He11 sent virus"...even anti christian. Anti-Christ.

They cannot believe that their one or two man shows do not sufficiently satisfy by their eloquence, exegesis, expositions and laboriously prepared sermons to their audience can possibly leave any _but full._ Not when they set of themselves such a robust table.


Yet, there's a perspective that is less addressing the dissemination of "Bible words" than it does something else. A famine.

A famine of hearing.

And God knows how to move what needs to be moved to _the necessity of hearing._

Do we read Paul?

Are chapters in 1 Cor...11-14, merely filler? Instruction for someones and something "else"? What in faith can be expected in exercise by the Exerciser as we come together...if for the better...not losing heart? Even of those things we are told to earnestly covet? With chapter 13 being signal in all...but never dis-anulling what surrounds it.

I laugh at my own ability and persuasion to make any of this seen, but like you, I too have been given a command...to watch...and pray. And to not confuse what is seen as holding a glory incorruptible.

What is waiting for a return to "normal"? What is looking for the appearing of Whom and what has never made such appearing? What is hoping to stand, having no confidence in the flesh, and by such longing is even inviting judgments upon the earth? Knowing the world will not be judged by He11?

Hey...is this stuff...this upending...your fault?

Bravo.


----------



## StriperAddict

Israel said:


> I laugh at my own ability and persuasion to make any of this seen, but like you, I too have been given a command...to watch...and pray. And to not confuse what is seen as holding a glory incorruptible.
> 
> What is waiting for a return to "normal"?


Thank you.

I'd be foolish if I say I do not want a return to "normal" in the sense of this destructive virus wreaking havoc ... coming to a close.
The loss of life while tragic, pales in other losses, from flu's and famines and other means of our own inhumanity to one another.
We are compelled to a flesh walk by another force and the leaving behind of spirit and godly wisdom and "senseability" is right at hand.
Should an act of mercy come to prevent our thoughts towards "me first self protection" then we are understanding and seeing a work far greater and kind ... to show us a desperate dependence in His Providence will be greater life than what the self sufficient flesh tries to offer.

Union by faith is still a huge consideration! I'm often a fool in prayer only because I know that bringing myself honestly before the throne of grace will bring corrections in kindness and not judgement.

Prayer, talking to Abba. That's one of a few places where the healing of flesh distortions goes on, and not so as to parade the correctives ... but certainly useful in being content in Jesus while momentary light afflictions go on.

Oops, did i just call CV-19 a momentary light affliction?

Perspective,  perspective, perspective.  (His)

Let's gather where and how best we can to bring help, goods and especially His life and light to the hurting, sans, of course, our own "Job's-comforter"  judgements.

WGS


----------



## Browning Slayer

NCHillbilly said:


> Woodrow will collect your tithes from you.



Wonder if Woodrow has ever dipped his hand in the offering plate?


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

j_seph said:


> What RIGHT do you have to sit in a church and JUDGE who is saved and who is not?



What right does your church have to exclude from membership those who work in the alcohol industry?  But aren't they still doing that?

What does Scripture say?

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” 

Am I alone in thinking lots of church goers are unsaved?  Of course not.  Why are there so many altar calls and salvation messages in church if the preachers think everyone listening is saved?


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

NCHillbilly said:


> Woodrow will collect your tithes from you.





Browning Slayer said:


> Wonder if Woodrow has ever dipped his hand in the offering plate?



Reminds me of a joke a friend made,  "I love Jimmy Swaggart's church, they pass money around."

My general observation is that most churches in the 20th and 21st century America put a disproportionate emphasis on giving to the church.  Consider the actual emphasis of scripture on giving for ministry purposes.  It's very small, accounting for less than 1% of the Biblical text.  Yet, most churches spend 5-10 minutes each Sunday talking about it and passing the plate.  And then there is a whole sermon on the subject once or twice a year.  So, while the Scriptural example is less than 1%, most churches spend over 10% of their assembled time talking about it. 

If comparable time were spent talking about alcohol or adultery, most folks would identify this as being significantly out of balance.  But I guess the frog was boiled slowly enough, churches get a pass on spending so much time on giving for ministry purposes. 

Personally, I prefer churches that don't even pass the plate.  And my fishing ministry does not accept donations.  When folks offer money, I encourage them to send a contribution to either My Sister's Place in Gainesville or Solomon's Temple in Atlanta.


----------



## Browning Slayer

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> What right does your church have to exclude from membership those who work in the alcohol industry?  But aren't they still doing that?
> 
> What does Scripture say?
> 
> I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
> 
> Am I alone in thinking lots of church goers are unsaved?  Of course not.  Why are there so many altar calls and salvation messages in church if the preachers think everyone listening is saved?


Scripture says.... but what did Jesus do? He walked with sinners. Talked to sinners. Broke bread with sinners. If I remember correctly he stopped a woman from being stoned to death under Moses law for adultery.. hmmmm...

If it wasn’t for us evil sinners there wouldn’t be a church. 

I was under the impression Church was for broken people. Not the holiest of holy non sinning church members.


----------



## j_seph

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> What right does your church have to exclude from membership those who work in the alcohol industry?  But aren't they still doing that?


Do you not think that if someone, anyone decided to join a church organization of any kind that they would be have the same beliefs? I do not see a practicing JW to walk in the door and join a Catholic church unless they believe what the Catholic does. It actually says in the covenant below, however it never mentions a word about not welcoming those of every situation or not allowing them to come to church.


> to abstain from the sale and use of destructive drugs and
> intoxicating drinks as a beverage; and to shun pornography. We will also pursue fidelity in marriage by abstaining from immoral practices, and recognize the marriage covenant as a Holy union between one man and one woman.



Maybe to be a member they could get more if they reworded it like this
we encourage the sale and use of destructive drugs and
intoxicating drinks as a beverage; and encourage pornography. We will also pursue fidelity in marriage but if you cannot abstain from immoral practices we will be there to there to encourage you, and We do not recognize the marriage covenant as a Holy union between one man and one woman, as long as you got your marriage license it is all good and congratulations.



> Am I alone in thinking lots of church goers are unsaved?  Of course not.  Why are there so many altar calls and salvation messages in church if the preachers think everyone listening is saved?



Are you wrong in thinking that, not at all. there are even pastors deacons Sunday school teachers and members that are not saved and think they are. Did I judge them on this? I did not, the Lord did though and saved them. I know this by their testimony. Those that thought they were saved but weren't. My job as a Christian is not to walk into the church building and judge, that one is saved and that one is not. God sends his word through the foolishness of preaching, God brings the conviction, and provides the salvation.


----------



## Madman

As to exactly who is saved and who is not, we are not to say, "salvation belongs to the Lord". 

As to whether I am saved, or anyone else is saved I fall into the Biblical category of " I was saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved".  God gives me the grace each day to persevere, some days are better than others, some days I stumble and by God's grace I get back up.  I am under the assumption that most Christians are similar in their daily walk.

The question arises; "can a man be a member of the church if he.............?"    the answer is YES, if he is baptized, the question that has been asked here really is "can a man be a member of my assembly if he..................?"

Who says that the man who sells alcohol for a living is a sinner who cannot be saved?  What about the man who works in the grocery store that sells wine and beer?

It is quit easy to go down paths that we need deeper spiritual insight into before make decisions on that journey.


----------



## NCHillbilly

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Reminds me of a joke a friend made,  "I love Jimmy Swaggart's church, they pass money around."
> 
> My general observation is that most churches in the 20th and 21st century America put a disproportionate emphasis on giving to the church.  Consider the actual emphasis of scripture on giving for ministry purposes.  It's very small, accounting for less than 1% of the Biblical text.  Yet, most churches spend 5-10 minutes each Sunday talking about it and passing the plate.  And then there is a whole sermon on the subject once or twice a year.  So, while the Scriptural example is less than 1%, most churches spend over 10% of their assembled time talking about it.
> 
> If comparable time were spent talking about alcohol or adultery, most folks would identify this as being significantly out of balance.  But I guess the frog was boiled slowly enough, churches get a pass on spending so much time on giving for ministry purposes.
> 
> Personally, I prefer churches that don't even pass the plate.  And my fishing ministry does not accept donations.  When folks offer money, I encourage them to send a contribution to either My Sister's Place in Gainesville or Solomon's Temple in Atlanta.


I worked six years for an extravagant resort facility owned by a major church denomination. Millions of dollars flowed and were spent on things having nothing to do with the mission of a church. Hundreds of thousands were embezzled. Dirty politics abounded. It is simply a major profit-based corporation with tax-exempt status. It was one of the things that turned me against churches that are organized past the local community level.


----------



## Israel

StriperAddict said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I'd be foolish if I say I do not want a return to "normal" in the sense of this destructive virus wreaking havoc ... coming to a close.
> The loss of life while tragic, pales in other losses, from flu's and famines and other means of our own inhumanity to one another.
> We are compelled to a flesh walk by another force and the leaving behind of spirit and godly wisdom and "senseability" is right at hand.
> Should an act of mercy come to prevent our thoughts towards "me first self protection" then we are understanding and seeing a work far greater and kind ... to show us a desperate dependence in His Providence will be greater life than what the self sufficient flesh tries to offer.
> 
> Union by faith is still a huge consideration! I'm often a fool in prayer only because I know that bringing myself honestly before the throne of grace will bring corrections in kindness and not judgement.
> 
> Prayer, talking to Abba. That's one of a few places where the healing of flesh distortions goes on, and not so as to parade the correctives ... but certainly useful in being content in Jesus while momentary light afflictions go on.
> 
> Oops, did i just call CV-19 a momentary light affliction?
> 
> Perspective,  perspective, perspective.  (His)
> 
> Let's gather where and how best we can to bring help, goods and especially His life and light to the hurting, sans, of course, our own "Job's-comforter"  judgements.
> 
> WGS



Yes. We begin to learn not only of our "more connectedness" than we may have thought, but also our frailty in that. 

Even our own inability to know our own estate. 

My coughing neighbor may be only reacting to the pollen so prevalent right now, while I, blithely unaware could be asymptomatic carrier, in this instance more dangerous to all others...and particularly my own. God knows. This is no less equally applicable and more so, to spiritual matters.

The "political" forum which is just the social expression of our own spirituality, the discloser of our spiritual estate as though politics affords that same sort of anonymity that lets "truer" selves emerge...that is...what we may really believe in recommendations and practice is rife now with all sorts of contentions. 

Choices and/or decisions once made in blissful ignorance and/or utter insouciance are not so any longer. Consequence is being pressed to us far beyond any previous knowing, and suddenly all is colored by life and death implication. 

There can be no comfort found in statistics (though it is furiously sought), predictions, (though they be strenuously advanced) nor even all that once appeared the unshakable "normal" for it is being torn. 

There simply is no assurance from the earth or earthy in any of it. Strengths once assumed of such magnificence for the leaning are now being shown as sharp and piercing rods. Hopes of vanity and in vanity are abounding...but even as each seems to ascend there are ready voices (as equally educated and schooled) with cautions. 

How far a cry is this from a man ascending a pile of rubble some scant 20 years ago to assure a trembling and bewildered nation...those who have made themselves heard here will shortly be hearing from us. Today we can watch a man under such pressures as even his confidences are to a waffling. I don't demean him for this, for I see he too is learning of the weight of consequence. Open!...wait...maybe not so fast...don't open!..Yet. So many coming face to face with what they once blithely assumed was not ever to them...the unknown.

And of course you are right, and I must be rightly chastened if so by it, that Job's comforters will receive their own rebuke. Seeking to take advantage in their less dusty seats of ministering to another...if ministering is even a fit word.

In this thing, in this matter, in these events and circumstance there are matters far beyond the obvious made of connections, and far beyond the obvious of their previous resistance. But they are not hidden, or if seeming so, not to remain so. There are no "American believers"...anymore than there are Chinese believers. There are children of God sent into the Americas, and no less to any other name-able place they may appear. And we are all of one. 

And, of course...politics provides that handy place to such denial. We are there assumed allowed to don the mask of patriot or national sectarian to such extent that our prescriptions there, with faces now covered with flag provides that "anonymity" we believe is ours _by right. _And now to the extreme of it...even state by state of what once appeared of some homogeneity is showing itself all of fracture, obvious fault lines now appearing.  

What may proudly resist believing itself one in strength, if opposed to the One who is One...is manifesting itself as a house quite divided.



But I do not wish to make this all of the mere political in observation. And unless I first (if I at all believe myself a spiritual being by the work of Christ) no more nor less than any other so called, do not take heed to the very sure matter of consequence and consequences assured in every breath of Christ (yes, with wonderful consequence to the believer!) I must ask "am I being faithful, or have I been faithful in those matters pertaining to _where I have been sent?_" And if not...what is my lesson? Have I been suckling at two breasts? Am I the divided one?

We may not do well to forget Paul's words:

Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 

Forgetting there are quite important and necessary warnings in Christ.
The times of telling may never include those tempting times of "I told you so". For if the telling has been pure in its own given time, no more is ever necessary. 

The Lord makes all clear in the brightness of His appearing.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Professor Yitzhak Ben Israel has mathematically shown us that coronavirus closures were a mistake. It's a tough reality. Americans lost their jobs and businesses went under because the United States, along with most first world nations, acted on the chilling predictions of a severely flawed model, a reading of Professor Ferguson’s tarot cards.
> 
> https://townhall.com/columnists/mar...or-shows-virus-follows-fixed-pattern-n2566915




That's a very, very sobering article and I suspect the good professor is correct.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I'm not under the illusion that most church goers are really born again.  The Bible commands us to judge those inside the church and to judge the fruit.



Maybe you would be better served looking AT that mirror instead of through it.  And may I correct you.  At the very, very, best you are to judge others actions, not the person.  As a "teacher"  you should not have to be reminded of that.  There is only one Judge, and 'it ain't you'.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

j_seph said:


> *James 4:11* - Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
> 
> What RIGHT do you have to sit in a church and JUDGE who is saved and who is not? It is a personal relationship between you and God, not between Woodrow, you and God.



He has only a concept of God and salvation.  His God is an abstract concept and his salvation is built on his works, not his humility.    If it were different, ........well, there's a lot of what he says that he wouldn't.  It's like listening to a living, breathing, 2000 year old Pharisee.  I know.  That was me for years.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

NCHillbilly said:


> I worked six years for an extravagant resort facility owned by a major church denomination. Millions of dollars flowed and were spent on things having nothing to do with the mission of a church. Hundreds of thousands were embezzled. Dirty politics abounded. It is simply a major profit-based corporation with tax-exempt status. It was one of the things that turned me against churches that are organized past the local community level.



I agree to a large extent and have seen the same, albeit on a much smaller level.  I believe as you say, that churches should not organize past the community level, however the mission of the church to evangelize should remain corporate.  My church does many mission projects, and it's growth, goals and success has been noticed by many larger organizations, but we remain autonomous to some's chagrin.  We have one goal financially; to have no money in savings.  Every cent that comes in, goes out to missions.  Our end of month balance is 0 dollars.  That's a feature, not a flaw.   Our pastor works a full time job as well as pastors and many days are 16-20 hour days.  His salary is very little, yet without his leadership and vision I ofter worry where we would be.  Over the years there have been many internal and external forces that have tried to divide the church yet it has held, and I'm convinced it's because as a body the church is ONE in that regard: All money goes out.  None is saved.


----------



## j_seph

Revival starts tomorrow night.


----------



## Israel

I guess I am kinda missing some of the arguments, not quite sure if some are saying "a liquor store owner _may be saved_..." as in _some later knowledge_ of the Lord could be of effect upon him at which time he would be compelled to abandon that occupation.


Or that (God forbid!) some are saying that is some sort of unpardonable occupation forever forbidding the communing with God...ha ha ha ha ha...

Or that it is not an issue at all.
Ever.
Not a matter of "sin" _or even question_ per se.
That a man could be called to God's purposes and salvation _even with instruction_ to abiding as a liquor store owner.

Why couldn't he be?


----------



## Israel

Madman said:


> As to exactly who is saved and who is not, we are not to say, "salvation belongs to the Lord".
> 
> As to whether I am saved, or anyone else is saved I fall into the Biblical category of " I was saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved".  God gives me the grace each day to persevere, some days are better than others, some days I stumble and by God's grace I get back up.  I am under the assumption that most Christians are similar in their daily walk.
> 
> The question arises; "can a man be a member of the church if he.............?"    the answer is YES, if he is baptized, the question that has been asked here really is "can a man be a member of my assembly if he..................?"
> 
> Who says that the man who sells alcohol for a living is a sinner who cannot be saved?  What about the man who works in the grocery store that sells wine and beer?
> 
> It is quit easy to go down paths that we need deeper spiritual insight into before make decisions on that journey.





> As to exactly who is saved and who is not, we are not to say, "salvation belongs to the Lord".




I am believing you intend "are we not to say"?


----------



## Madman

Israel said:


> I am believing you intend "are we not to say"?


Poor grammer on my part.  
Madman said:
As to exactly who is saved and who is not, we are not to say.  

Because "salvation belongs to the Lord".


----------



## Israel

And LDB. For the record to be clear. I believe you know the Lord. There are very particular reasons I believe this. (And none of them matter...except to hold to things I have received.)

And one is the very thing that I do honestly believe is a great stumbling stone for some, your mention of a PhD. I don't think it was mentioned as a matter of pride or seeking to gain advantage as though "I have a PhD and therefore, even in spiritual matters I should be paid heed" I think it means little to you one way or the other, to the extent that "I am what I am by the grace of God", neither being ashamed, or feeling one should be, for any worldly recognition of your intellect and education, nor proud that such should carry weight in all places for anything.

At least I have never sensed you seeking to "leverage that" in spiritual matters. Nor the fact that you are accepted by some in a regular teaching capacity in their congregations. Nor that you seek to take advantage in a display of having a help mate with whom you share a harmonious ministry. I find it lovely.

My opinion means nothing. And I was being entirely facetious with that post "Look darling, he's an educated man, now I know I hate him"...

But sometimes just mention of experiences and/or accomplishments appear as though one is (even if it be not so) seeking to put their pinky on their side of the balances. Just how it is. I don't see that in you.

There's a reason Paul said "I speak like a fool now" when he recounted his many tribulations in service of the Lord...he was embarrassed by such usage of things he knew were gifts to him for building in the faith...as though they were a currency to be traded amongst his brethren. But he was so provoked by their naivete, so provoked by their ignorance and willingness to accept those who would "take a place" for advantage...with no true testimony of love in sacrifice for them. Men who would brashly step forward to smack them in the face...and they would bear it. 

And he feared for their continuing in such lack of discernment...it mattered less to him that he now appear a fool. I know God has worked some very valuable lessons and things in you I dare not despise. Even if _you may _be smarter...than me! (But my wife will tell you where I have assigned all "other" men in that regard...there simply is not one)

And you will rightly have no response to any of this because it means nothing to you. Whether you are approved of me or any man. But because you are accused openly...so may I speak openly.

But because I do know, as you, if I am to believe (as I do) your understanding of authority, its place, its place of exceeding to a judgment, and even its place of presumption to a condemnation...I am aware of mine.

It is in my authority to be reviled for the name of the Lord...and to no less (when occasion of such gift allows)  stand with those who are.

It's my pleasure. And I do not want to miss any joy directed my way by letting it fall ignored nor uncared for.


----------



## gemcgrew

gemcgrew said:


> Tell us more about those innocent people.





Nicodemus said:


> I`m sure they didn`t go t that funeral expecting to catch something that would kill them very soon.


Probably best not to confuse ignorance with innocence.


----------



## Nicodemus

gemcgrew said:


> Probably best not to confuse ignorance with innocence.




OK. Why don`t you explain this.

I`ll await your answer.

Actually, I don`t care if you answer or not. If you don`t like my use of the term innocent, that`s your problem.


----------



## gemcgrew

Nicodemus said:


> OK. Why don`t you explain this.
> 
> I`ll await your answer.
> 
> Actually, I don`t care if you answer or not. If you don`t like my use of the term innocent, that`s your problem.


Not a problem at all, as I was shown something through it. I appreciate it!


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

Israel said:


> And one is the very thing that I do honestly believe is a great stumbling stone for some, your mention of a PhD. I don't think it was mentioned as a matter of pride or seeking to gain advantage as though "I have a PhD and therefore, even in spiritual matters I should be paid heed"



I mentioned being a scientist in the context of depending on science rather than faith to determine that going to church was no more of a risk for spreading COVID-19 than going to Walmart, especially since adherence to respiratory hygiene and social distancing guidelines have been much better in church than at Walmart and other retail places.

I'll also note that when church meetings began to be cancelled in my county, there were ZERO known COVID-19 cases here.   Flattening the curve is about probability of transmission, which was very low at that time, since the infection rate was so low it has not been detected yet.  There were a few cases in the county when the more extreme measure was taken of banning even drive-in services, which really had no justification at all and was the largest example of government over-reach.  Fortunately, Governor Kemp stepped in and rolled that one back quickly.

As things re-open, I do have an ongoing concern with protecting my family and others from COVID-19.  Since there are now over 1000 cases of COVID-19 in my county, my household will likely be maintaining a high level of isolation and social distancing through at least the month of May.  For the past 6 weeks, we've all reduced our social interactions by at least 90%, and I expect we'll maintain that.  Odds of transmission are much, much higher in a county with over 1000 confirmed cases of COVID-19 than in a county without any at all.  

We will continue to attend drive-in services, and likely return to in-building attendance as soon as something is available.  But if attendees in an assembly are not adhering to social distancing guidelines, we'd simply leave.  We are scheduled to play music again at the mini-golf course in May - social distancing was excellent there.  I'll continue to take people fishing in my boat, since keeping a guest in the front while I stay in the back has worked very well.  

But I doubt we'll be eating out in May, we'll be working from home, avoiding the counties with even higher COVID-19 numbers, minimizing trips to retail stores, avoiding organized shooting events, and avoiding all gatherings that seem unlikely to maintain social distancing guidelines.  This is where my risk assessment leads me as a man of faith who understands the science and applies it as I consider how I love my neighbor as myself.

Of course, part of loving my neighbor is wanting him to have the liberty to use his own faith and conscience and respecting his choices even if they happen to be different from mine.  But I do hope that churches that can trust their people to maintain social distancing guidelines will open their doors sooner than churches that suspect their first meetings back in person will be hugging and handshake festivals.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

I do hope once regular meetings resume, churches will scale back the time and attention being given to the tithe and offering in most online ministry I'm seeing.  Spending 5-10 minutes on it in every regular 60-90 minute service is disproportionate and off-putting.  I want to identify good local churches I can recommend to my fishing guests and others I reach out to, and this nonsense is likely to provide an excuse for many of them to stay home.

I have identified one good on-line ministry out of Louisiana that spends less than 1% of it's air time talking about giving to the ministry, and it's the main one I've been recommending to friends and guests, and we sent our tithe this month to the affiliated church.  I'd far prefer to tithe to a local church, but my conscience is troubled by the idea of rewarding bad behavior by giving to a church placing such disproportionate emphasis on money.  

I'd also far prefer to set a better example for others by attending a church in-person that doesn't have a disproportionate emphasis every Sunday on giving to the church.  But if the trend I'm seeing online continues when meetings resume in person, it might be much harder to find one.  I may have to return to favoring more Bible studies, fellowship meetings, and Shabbat meetings of Messianic congregations that don't even pass the plate.


----------



## The Original Rooster

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I do hope once regular meetings resume, churches will scale back the time and attention being given to the tithe and offering in most online ministry I'm seeing.  Spending 5-10 minutes on it in every regular 60-90 minute service is disproportionate and off-putting.  I want to identify good local churches I can recommend to my fishing guests and others I reach out to, and this nonsense is likely to provide an excuse for many of them to stay home.
> 
> I have identified one good on-line ministry out of Louisiana that spends less than 1% of it's air time talking about giving to the ministry, and it's the main one I've been recommending to friends and guests, and we sent our tithe this month to the affiliated church.  I'd far prefer to tithe to a local church, but my conscience is troubled by the idea of rewarding bad behavior by giving to a church placing such disproportionate emphasis on money.
> 
> I'd also far prefer to set a better example for others by attending a church in-person that doesn't have a disproportionate emphasis every Sunday on giving to the church.  But if the trend I'm seeing online continues when meetings resume in person, it might be much harder to find one.  I may have to return to favoring more Bible studies, fellowship meetings, and Shabbat meetings of Messianic congregations that don't even pass the plate.


While you and I may not see eye to eye on some of this thread, I wholeheartedly agree with your feelings on the subject of church's and money.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

Need to give a shout out to Free Chapel.  This morning, our family watched an entire hour long online meeting, and there was minimal discussion of giving to the church.  In the last minute or so of the stream, they did put the info on the screen for about 1 minute, but the pastor was light handed about it and spent most of that minute taking about other things.

I hope other churches are also more mindful of how out of balance and distasteful the continual requests for money are becoming.


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

Praise the Lord.  Churches are opening back up in Georgia, in accordance with Gov. Kemp's guidelines.

Some are delaying a few more weeks, and those appear to be the ones that understand they may have greater challenges maintaining social distancing.  I can respect that.

But others are opening for in-person meetings.  Buford Church of God, for example, is holding an in-person this Sunday, May 3 at 9 AM.  There is a required sign-up on their web site so they can limit attendance to 175 people which should give attendees plenty of room to spread out in their sanctuary which has a much larger max occupancy during normal times.  When I checked this morning, 99 people had already signed up for this Sunday and some had also signed up for next Sunday.   They are also maintaining drive-in and online services for folks who prefer not to attend in person.  

In the last few meetings we attended there inside the building, most churches were already closed and social distancing rules were already in effect.  They did an excellent job maintaining social distancing guidelines, and I expect that to continue.


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## j_seph

I have seen and heard very little about tithing at the churches up this way. Drive in services have been if you have a tithe , stick your hand out the window and someone will come by and take it. Our church was told if you have a tithe just place it in the mailbox as you pull out. Thanks be to God we paid off our church 2 months ago, so other than utilities which aren't being used a lot right now we are well. We did have to postpone our one annual fundraiser we do each year until October.


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## Israel

gemcgrew said:


> Not a problem at all, as I was shown something through it. I appreciate it!



Is there the place of blessed ignorance to be found where we abandon all work of seeking to make ourselves appear innocent? 

There is a terrible place of facing our own ignorance that is able to save us from a worse place. _The worst_ place.

And then the terrible place becomes for us delightful. Joyous. Hilariously...wonderful. Hidden. To be revealed. Not because of ignorance...but because we thought we knew?


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## NE GA Pappy

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> But others are opening for in-person meetings.  Buford Church of God, for example, is holding an in-person this Sunday, May 3 at 9 AM.  There is a required sign-up on their web site so they can limit attendance to 175 people which should give attendees plenty of room to spread out in their sanctuary which has a much larger max occupancy during normal times.  When I checked this morning, 99 people had already signed up for this Sunday and some had also signed up for next Sunday.   They are also maintaining drive-in and online services for folks who prefer not to attend in person.



Our church is doing the same thing with the online registration.  You tell them how many in your party, and they are arranging the church to seat the most with the groups that are coming.  They think 200 can be seated in one service, so we are having a 9am and an 11am.  Pastor says if those fill up and people still want to come, then May 10, we will have 3 services, and add every Sunday until all who want to be in church can be in church.

They are also continuing drive in church for those who aren't comfortable with being inside the building yet.  It will be at 5pm on Sunday.

As far as tithes during the drive in church, Community Pastor Greg Gober gets up announces they are going to receive the offering, says a prayer and sits down.  If you want to give, you turn on your flashers, and someone comes by with a bucket on a long pole, and places it outside your window so you can drop in the check.  You don't have to even get within 6 ft to give.


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## NE GA Pappy

saw this today, and thought it was funny


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## LittleDrummerBoy

Attended Buford Church of God yesterday in person.  There was a lot of effort and a great job maintaining social distancing requirements through the service.  About 150 of the 175 available slots were filled, which left plenty of room in the sancturary for people to maintain the recommended distancing.  The social distancing I saw in church was better than I've seen anywhere else for the past couple weeks - it seems like folks are getting careless quickly in places like retail stores and on Lake Lanier.

Next week, I plan to attend an online service on Sunday and attend a mid-week service in person.  As great as it was to be in church in person yesterday and hear a great sermon from Pastor Joey Grizzle, the spots for next Sunday are almost filled, and Mother's Day is usually behind only Christmas and Easter in terms of attendance.  There is far less demand for limited seating in mid-week services, and I am pleased a few nearby churches are beginning to open these back also for in-person attendance.

But I will observe that it seems to make more sense for churches to re-open now if their original closure was to comply with the Governor's order (which has expired) than if their original closure was purportedly for the protection and well-being of their flock.  Most Georgia counties have higher rates of COVID-19 right now than in mid-March when churches originally began to close.  If the same seating limitations and social distancing would have been maintained, having church in March and early April would have been safer then than it is now, since the infection rates were much lower.


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## 4HAND

We're hoping to be back in our Sanctuary in 2 weeks.
Social distance seating in Sanctuary & foyer, as well as continuing to transmit through FM for folks who wish to remain in their vehicles.


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## LittleDrummerBoy

Good to see this.

Justice Department backs pastor challenging Va. Gov. Northam's social distancing order

The Justice Department is siding with a rural Virginia church that sued the state's governor after the pastor was charged with violating a social distancing order.

The government filed court papers Sunday in support of Lighthouse Fellowship Church in Chincoteague on Virginia's eastern shore, which said the state improperly discriminated by insisting that the church permit no more than 10 people to attend services while allowing businesses to accommodate larger groups.

"The Commonwealth cannot treat religious gatherings less favorably than other similar secular gatherings," the Justice Department said in its submission.

While Democratic Gov. Ralph Northam's stay-at-home order allows residents to attend religious services, it restricts the number of people who can congregate, while shopping malls, office spaces, law firms and other businesses are allowed to operate with no such limits.

States have broad powers to protect public health, but the courts should step in when they go too far, the government said.

"There is no pandemic exception to the Constitution and its Bill of Rights," the Justice Department said.

Police officers charged Pastor Kevin Wilson with violating the governor's order by allowing 16 people to attend a service on April 5. Lawyers for the church said those 16 people were separated by more than 6 feet in a sanctuary that can seat 225.

On Friday, a federal judge denied the church's motion for an order to block enforcement of Northam's order against religious gatherings, provided that they comply with social distancing and personal hygiene recommendations.


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## LittleDrummerBoy

I'm beginning to see lots of area churches advertise re-openings on Sunday, May 17.  Some still targeting later dates, and various guidance on reservations and social distancing and masks is in play, so make sure you check the details before you go.

Not sure yet, if the Bible studies and small groups that have been suspended or moved on-line will resume in person that week.  Hope so.


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## LittleDrummerBoy

As I expected, the courts are beginning to rule that it was unconstitutional to close churches while allowing places like Walmart to remain open.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/coronavirus-kentucky-church-service-gov-judge

“If social distancing is good enough for Home Depot and Kroger, it is good enough for in-person religious services which, unlike the foregoing, benefit from constitutional protection,” the judge wrote in the court's order.


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## Ruger#3

j_seph said:


> *James 4:11* - Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
> 
> What RIGHT do you have to sit in a church and JUDGE who is saved and who is not? It is a personal relationship between you and God, not between Woodrow, you and God.



AMEN!!!!


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## LittleDrummerBoy

I am noticing churches doing a much better job getting the word out about the status of their Sunday meetings (in-person or on-line) than the status of their mid-week meetings.

What's the use of web pages, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram if potential attendees are left in the dark regarding what's happening this week?

Y'all might want to check the web presence of your churches and see how the communication is going with respect to re-opening plans.


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## Israel

gemcgrew said:


> Probably best not to confuse ignorance with innocence.





aha! 

Would there be anything more ignorant than man declaring his own innocence?

But O! what a seemingly clever hideout...

"I am innocent because I was ignorant that life could hold deadly consequence."

To be able to declare "I am ignorant enough to not have known..." already displays enough for a conviction.


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## LittleDrummerBoy

Trump Deems Churches Essential


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## LittleDrummerBoy

Liberty vs. Love?

Love seeks to protect the liberty of others, especially when that liberty is the subject of covenant promises (the US Constitution). What other covenant promises are suddenly subject to unilateral modification during a pandemic?

So while love might decide for their own church to suspend meetings, it would never demand other churches to suspend their meetings or to judge other churches for failing to suspend their meetings.

I saw a lot more bad science recently than bad theology. The bad science was that somehow, meeting (with proper social distancing and respiratory hygiene) in church was more dangerous than going to Walmart.

The worst doctrinal error I saw was the willingness to classify the church meeting together as "non-essential." The church meeting together is absolutely essential activity.

I also saw a lot of false testimony along the lines that other people were somehow putting them or their loved ones at risk by leaving their homes or attending church meetings, regardless of whether the recommended social distancing and respiratory hygiene standards were met. Failing to rebuke false testimony among purported Christians is bad practice.


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## LittleDrummerBoy

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> It is important to note the key difference between a voluntary closure and an ordered one.  With voluntary closures, the church itself decides when it may resume normal operations.  With government orders, one is waiting for government to give the OK to open again for public services.  They may have a very different idea of "how long" is long enough.



As shown above, I knew within a week of the early church closures that we'd get to the point we are now - with churches wanting to open, but evil people in government wanting to keep them closed.

I wonder how many who opined above that churches need to "submit to government authority" and follow instructions to close still think churches need to stay closed in places where the governor has ordered them to?

It does my heart good to see churches resisting illegal and evil orders to stay closed.  As I said before, we must obey God rather than men -

https://www.foxnews.com/us/california-pastor-coronavirus-order-newsoms-shutdown


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