# What happened to the bobwhite quail?



## Jody Hawk (Jun 10, 2005)

What is your opinion on why the quail population has dwindled in the last twenty years? I know that biologists say it is because of loss of habitat but I don't buy it. Quail live in a fairly small area. In fact, when we hunted quail growing up we pretty much knew the general area that the coveys would be in. If it is loss of habitat then why is there hundreds of acres that looks today like it did thirty years ago. There were coveys all over it then but not now. It just doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## WOODIE13 (Jun 10, 2005)

More predators, loss of habitat, change of management/farming practices, wetter nesting seasons, global warming.  

Also, while in VA, a farmer told me that intoduction of non native grasses (fescew), cause the chicks to get lost/stuck/die because it is so thick.  Just what I heard.


----------



## Jriley (Jun 10, 2005)

I'm not really sure, but I wish they would come back. I loved to hunt with my grandfather in Mississippi when I was a kid. He had a little Parker 28 gauge and was deadly with it.
Some people say that it is the fireant or different farming practices that minimize edge habitat. I think it is predators. I saw a Mississippi hunting license that my grandfather had from before WWII. In his county they paid a bounty for predators, including hawks and owls. Now we are overrun with the things. Think about how many domestic and feral dogs roam the woods now as compared to 50 years ago? This doesn't even include the infestation some parts of Georgia face with the coyote. I ran over one this winter in front of the Forsyth County Library in Cumming! That's not exactly in the middle of the country.
Now if I want to hunt quail I have to go to a put and take place, which I'm not crazy about.


----------



## Woody's Janitor (Jun 10, 2005)

I believe the loss is due by not letting farmers or land-owners burn off their property. When the Gov. stopped the practice, here in the foothills, the birds were no longer around.


----------



## gobblinglawyer (Jun 10, 2005)

1.  Fire ants

2.  Habitat fragmentation (less and less small farms)

3.  Farming drip line to drip line (basically no hedge rows any more)


----------



## jfinch (Jun 10, 2005)

There are two good articles in the last two issues of Shooting Sportsman about this.  According to the research by Tall Timbers and the Albany quail project.  The intensive removal of hardwoods has shown to be a benefit to the wild quail populations.  This is in conjunction with burning and reintroducing native warm season grasses.  Fire needs to be on at least a two year rotation.  Any more and they started to see a decline in numbers.  The information is out there to bring back wild quail.  It requires alot of money though.


----------



## csgreen1 (Jun 11, 2005)

Fire ants,hawks, coons,turkeys,yotes,fox,have all hurt quail and fescue is no good at all.


----------



## Jimmy D. Moore (Jun 11, 2005)

I asked the same question to a local Dnr agent. He said he thought it was due to the turkey population. As he explained that turkeys were ground feeders and would eat the eggs in nest. I know the quail population has decreased as the turkey has increased.  Jimmy


----------



## huntnnut (Jun 11, 2005)

If I'm not mistaken, earlier types of pesticides used by farmers had a real detrimental affect on the quail population also.

Though, I thought the quail population was on a rebound...  

I know the Heard County property that I hunted the last couple of years had several good coveys on it along with a lot of rabbits, however there were not very many turkeys on it.


----------



## shotgun (Jun 11, 2005)

The biggest reason is the fire ants. If they can kill a day old calf that weighs 80lbs they can sure work on a nest of young chicks coming out of the egg.


----------



## Jody Hawk (Jun 11, 2005)

huntnnut said:
			
		

> I thought the quail population was on a rebound...



I don't know about that, I haven't heard a wild quail whistle in four or five years now.


----------



## huntaholic (Jun 12, 2005)

*Bobs are back*

I have 85 ac tract in hancock cty an the last 3 years I have seen more Quail than I have in 10 years, I have had 2 eng pointers down 2 one now but I use to go all over the place looking for birds an find none. Its all about the land my tract down below sparta has no birds its grown up an thick but my 85 ac tract in powleton is clear cut with planted pines growing back, theres birds everywhere I have even seen little ones this year. I was told years ago that Quail like clean ground an lots of new growth must be true. Have also talked with farmers that live in the neck of the woods an they say they have also seen more birds than in years.   COME ON BACK BOB


----------



## SWAMPFOX (Jun 14, 2005)

I have been able to re-establish quail through prescribed fire and winter disking. I heard a bunch calling last time I was at my place. The DNR Quail Habitat Improvement Program folks were very helpful.  They came out, looked at my place and wrote up a management plan that would have paid me $$ to set up a quail habitat improvement program but I could not get the landowner's buy in on the cost share.  Nevertheless, I implemented the program and it's working. In fact, my management is a lot more aggressive than what DNR proposed. 

If you want to know about quail management, the Tall Timbers Research Station north of Tallahassee is the place to start.


----------



## TurkeyProof (Jun 14, 2005)

*Thats easy*

Feral cats and save the snake people.


----------



## Echo (Jun 14, 2005)

I tend to believe that habitat changes and fire ants are the major culprits.I've never heard the turkey theory before and a good look around Di-Lane Plantation WMA might cast some doubt on that as there is plenty of both quail and turkeys roaming that place.Good land management seems to be the key for good quail numbers.


----------



## redlevel (Jun 15, 2005)

I think all the above have had some impact on quail decline.  However, I think Bob could have overcome the fire-ants, coyotes, turkeys, feral cats, etc., if he still had good habitat.  More then 75% of the several thousand acres I had access to 35 years ago is now in planted pines.  Some of the land has now had the second crop of pines cut off it since the late 60's/early 70's.  Quail do ok on pine plantations the first several years, but when they start shading out the other vegetation, quail can't stay there.  Thin the pines, burn off every couple of years, provide some brushy edges, and plant a little grain and leave it, and the quail will come back.  

I spent most of today working on a 50 year old mower in the shade of some pecan trees.  I heard at least six quail calling; bob-white, bob-white, bob-white.  I have left hedge-rows overgrown, and planted winter wheat, grain sorghum, and browntop millet;  there is something with seed on it standing year-round.  It is just a small place, about 50 acres, but there are at least two wild coveys on it.  Back in the "good old days", most farms in Taylor County ranged from 50 to 200 acres.  Most farmers used 8n Fords and 35 Fergusons.  There were plenty of hedgerows and overgrown terraces.  Not any more.

Quail used to be what people thought of when they thought about hunting in Georgia.  President Eisenhower used to play golf in Augusta and hunt quail in Thomasville. Deer and Turkey have replaced Bob.  That is where the DNR money and research have been focused for 40 years now.  This is a good thing for the largest number of people.  I know this won't be a popular sentiment here, and I don't mean it in a bad way, but I would trade every deer and turkey in Georgia for a dozen good coveys on my land.     Notice the smileys.  I don't want to get jumped on.  To me, though, knocking down a double with my old Parker over a pair of locked-down setters is more of a thrill than shooting a nice buck.


----------



## carabrook (Jun 15, 2005)

We have 85 acres with 50 of that in 15 yr pines and the rest in hardwoods. Many times during deer season last year we observed coveys walking out of the pine areas onto our logging road and picking at gravel and food as they milled around. Haven't hunted them on the property but we have seen quite a few in different areas so I am assuming they are not all the same covey.


----------



## MoeBirds (Jun 16, 2005)

Jody Hawk said:
			
		

> I don't know about that, I haven't heard a wild quail whistle in four or five years now.





  That's a shame for sure considering the population GA had at one time  !! It is ,as has been mentioned due in large part to changes in farming practices and fragmentation etc.
.......As well, we no longer trap predators as much as in the past  .
 However there are cases where they are making a comeback. Those can mostly be seen on propertys like the one I have access to.(middle GA/Washington Co.) Though it's only 150 acres, broken up in a 40/110 ac. divided by a small country road. The property directly adjacent to it is intensively-managed for quail and waterfowl. It is _not _ a commercial-hunting property either, simply it's owned by a man who enjoys to hunt quail. The fact that he's $omewhat loaded doesn't hurt,(on about 1000 ac.) but his efforts have proven fruitful to adjoining landowners(me)   in that I am literally woken up by the "call of Bobwhite quail" every morning over the last few weeks  !!!
   This morning I located the calls of 4 individual Bobwhites calling to each other (nonstop!!) directly behind my home  all w/in less than a 2 acre area. They were louder and calling more than I've ever heard!!!
   As I pulled out of the drive to go to school I realized about a quarter mile down the road I'd left a box of waxpaper (use it for aquatic-plant collection) on my hood and it slid off and into the road. So I stopped and as I got out of my truck the abandonded Ag-fields were alive with the sounds of another half-dozen Bobwhites calling to each other  !!!!
   All of this was not  to rub it in that _I get to hear em and you don't_  But it was so amazing I thought...If this guy can do it, why can't more of us?! Prehaps CO-OP is the way to go or gun-clubs specifically devoted to quail?! 
    I know quail definately like their feet to touch the soil and do not like to cross large open spaces. Row-crops (berries/variuos-lespedeza/seeding-plants+cover) are what make up the majority of this gentleman's property. That and a Basil area of around 70 (open canopy) which is ideal for quail. I know he does a lot of predator-control, as do I !!
   note: Washington Co. isn't even covered under the Bobwhite Quail Initiative  !? If it were and we have wild populations of this size in certain areas, it seems to me we'd have the resource$ needed to re-establish  huntable populations for all!!....over the period of only a few years  !?


----------



## ryanwhit (Jun 16, 2005)

The first paragraph of my thesis...maybe this will help...

It is well known that northern bobwhite (Colinus virginianus) populations across the country have been steadily declining for the past 40 years.  This decline is most apparent in the Southeastern United States, an area that is historically known to have exceptionally good quail habitat (Brennan 1991). Though there are many theories as to what has caused the population decrease, most agree that the biggest factors are changes in land use, namely clean farming and silvicultural practices (Brennan 1991).  Today’s agricultural systems are quite different from those of years past, with seemingly endless crop fields, cultivated directly adjacent to the woodline.  These large fields have replaced the smaller patchwork fields because of economic reasons, as well as to allow access for large tractors (O’Connor and Shrubb 1986).  Though large fields are valuable economically, they have eliminated thousands of kilometers of fencerows that formerly separated smaller fields, and because modern farming practices lack a transition zone to the forest, edge habitat is often eliminated (Klimstra 1982).  Additionally, silvicultural systems in the Southeast are designed to maximize basal area, mostly on a short pulpwood rotation.  This kind of silviculture system prevalent today does not provide quality bobwhite habitat (Brennan 1991, Bearden et al. 2002).  Quail may be able to inhabit newly established plantations, but after canopy closure, the habitat becomes inhospitable to quail (Rosene 1969).


----------



## Junebug (Jun 17, 2005)

Is is possible to plant flight/pen-raised quail that have had very limited contact w/man to jump start a wild population?  (I know it's probably a stretch as every pen-raised bird I've ever see you had to practically step on to get him to flush.)

Seems like with the THOUSANDS of flight-pen birds released in GA some would make it, and start a new wild covey here and there.


----------



## MoeBirds (Jun 20, 2005)

Junebug said:
			
		

> Is it possible to plant flight/pen-raised quail that have had very limited contact w/man to jump start a wild population?  (I know it's probably a stretch as every pen-raised bird I've ever see you had to practically step on to get him to flush.)
> 
> Seems like with the THOUSANDS of flight-pen birds released in GA some would make it, and start a new wild covey here and there.




   It _seems_ like that would work, but the general assessment is that it does not.
   I've been told; most(eggs purchased)for pen-raised birds are _generations removed _ from the wild quail and are almost a different species. That's a bit of a stretch(IMO). The resaoning behind this theory is; how else are we to explain their lack of what should be instinct when it comes to survival?! 
   I'll explain:
In Miami after Hurricane Andrew the Miami Zoo's famed _Bird Sanctuary _ was completely destroyed and all those rare species which did survive were free and began showing up all over Miami in the following weeks. Many of these tropical-species are birds which pair-for-life and when a mate dies the other does not reproduce, so capturing them was not an option. To this day it is not uncommon to see these amazing birds which have gone on to reproduce successfully and are quite a site indeed!! 
 The most important factor to their survival is that while in captivity they were fed native fruits within their sanctuary which was not entirely different from their jungle homes throughout South America. The fact that in almost every tree they landed within a week after the storm, some form of natural-fruit was growing in it helped.


   .....Our pen-raised quail on the other hand are fed non-native feed typically, and are in an environment that looks unlike anything in nature. Therefore they are unlikely to adapt to their surroundings especially since those areas they're released into are so inhospitable, due to all those reasons mentioned above,to even the native-quail populations.

 Now if you were to raise uncrowded quail (to avoid canabilism) in a more natural temperature-conrolled environment, dirt floor,natural cover,flight-bars, complete with native species of seed/fruit bearing plants and lespedezas which matched those which you have growing on your _managed release-area_?! An _expensive _ experiment I'll admit,.........but it just might work  ?!


----------



## Vulpes (Jun 20, 2005)

*Greg*

I feel that one thing that should be thought about is that birds raised in pens are use to or do not truely understand predators.  The bird does have some instict to avoid them but no parental involvement may play a fator.  If hen quail alerts young to take cover when a raptor is spotted then this is a learned behavior thus the young bird begins to understand how to react.  This does not occur in a pen.  The rator can perch on the netting and cannot get to the chick so why would he be afraid of it in the wild?


----------



## Junebug (Jun 20, 2005)

When I lived in NC I bought birds from a guy who raised them in big chicken houses; just guessing but the houses were 50ft wide and 100ft or more long.  He had it set up so he could feed, water, and catch birds WITHOUT going into the main house all the time.

They were some of the "wilder" pen-raised birds I've seen, but still no-way comparable to wild birds.  Agreed; besides instinct they'd have no way to learn concealment or escape tactics.

Of related interest: I read an article years ago about a study that used a combo of wild/pen-raised birds and big constructed brushpiles with timed tape recorders tucked inside.  The recorders had a quail's assembly call on it and played every evening.  Supposedly it promoted mingling of raised birds so they could learn how to survive from their wild cousins.  The brushpiles added security.

I forgot how it all went down...wish I could find that article again.


----------



## ryanwhit (Jun 20, 2005)

Woodswalker said:
			
		

> i said all of that to say this, without some replenishment and protection from predators, how can we see more partridges as a normal part of the local community?
> 
> Please don't say put and take is part of the answer.





Habitat improvement/management on the landscape scale...

That is the answer, as improbable or impossible as it may be.

Unfortunately, the booming populations of bobwhites are gone forever over most of the southeast.  They can remain, however, on large private and/or public land that is correctly managed.


----------



## ryanwhit (Jun 20, 2005)

Junebug said:
			
		

> Is is possible to plant flight/pen-raised quail that have had very limited contact w/man to jump start a wild population?  (I know it's probably a stretch as every pen-raised bird I've ever see you had to practically step on to get him to flush.)
> 
> Seems like with the THOUSANDS of flight-pen birds released in GA some would make it, and start a new wild covey here and there.




Though releasing pen-raised quail (either the day of the hunt or during pre-season releases) is a common practice on many commercial and private hunting preserves, it is not accepted as an option for increasing wild quail populations.  

If one chooses to do a preseason release, several things must be in place.  First, put out twice as many birds as you want, because half of them will die within 2 weeks.  They must be fed milo (from a seed spreader on designated feed routes), and ample cover must be in place.

The best way to manage for quail (as is with any other species) is to manage for the habitat that they thrive in.


----------



## redlevel (Jun 20, 2005)

ryanwhit, are you familar with this guy's work?  He seems to have had some success with releasing quail at a much younger age (6 weeks) than most releases.  

http://www.alabamaforestowners.com/CILive/CI0311_a.htm

Habitat restoration is indeed the secret to saving Bob on a large scale, and it just ain't going to happen except on places such as that described in the linked article.


----------



## ryanwhit (Jun 20, 2005)

redlevel said:
			
		

> ryanwhit, are you familar with this guy's work?  He seems to have had some success with releasing quail at a much younger age (6 weeks) than most releases.
> 
> http://www.alabamaforestowners.com/CILive/CI0311_a.htm
> 
> Habitat restoration is indeed the secret to saving Bob on a large scale, and it just ain't going to happen except on places such as that described in the linked article.




No, I hadn't heard of him.  Sounds like he's trying to do some good things over there.  That's an interesting article.

I'm not saying that it's not possible to re-establish a disjunct population of quail through releasing.  On a property that I manage in AL, we've certainly had released birds live throughout the season, and into the next...as singles, no less.  I am saying that most biologists agree that there are better ways to go about trying to improve the population on a landscape scale throughout the southeast.


----------



## Junebug (Jun 20, 2005)

Thanks for the insight.  This has been a good thread...good dialogue.


----------



## redlevel (Jun 20, 2005)

Junebug said:
			
		

> Thanks for the insight.  This has been a good thread...good dialogue.




Quail hunters tend to be more civil than deer and turkey hunters.


----------



## WOODIE13 (Jun 21, 2005)

What about disease among wild and pen raised birds?


----------



## ryanwhit (Jun 21, 2005)

WOODIE13 said:
			
		

> What about disease among wild and pen raised birds?




I can't find any liturature on it here at the house, but I think if you plan on released birds living on your property (ie..you may not shoot them the day of release), than you should buy vaccinated birds.  I do know that the potential of disease spreading from pen-reared to wild birds is a concern among biologist.

ryan


----------



## MoeBirds (Jun 21, 2005)

redlevel said:
			
		

> ryanwhit, are you familar with this guy's work?  He seems to have had some success with releasing quail at a much younger age (6 weeks) than most releases.
> 
> http://www.alabamaforestowners.com/CILive/CI0311_a.htm
> 
> Habitat restoration is indeed the secret to saving Bob on a large scale, and it just ain't going to happen except on places such as that described in the linked article.




Thanks for that informative link!!!!!


 I think we may try that on a game preserve, I help out on during the season. I'm gonna have dinner with the owners this weekend and discuss it further. They sound very interested  !!!....They raise quail,chukars, and pheasant and have been looking into _different ways to hunt them _ than the put-and-take(dizzying)which is not so popular with most?!

 Were also trying to move away from the Continental (tower/pheasant) Shoots that are popping up more and more and looking into having hunts in a more natural setting. Acres and acres of fields, thich hedgerows, and within the pines with optimum basil-areas, etc.

I wonder if it would work with pheasant and chukar too  ??? 

Thanks again   !!!


----------



## ryanwhit (Jun 21, 2005)

Greg Lewis said:
			
		

> I wonder if it would work with pheasant and chukar too  ???



Pheasants may live to maturity, but will likely not reproduce.  Viable populations of pheasants are beleived to be impossible in the southeast because of the amount of photoperiod during breeding season (they are not correctly triggered to breed physiologically).  However, they may live to maturity and beyond into the next season...

I'm not sure about chukars, but it wouldn't suprise me if it was the same with them.  Give it shot and see how it goes...

btw, what plantation, if you don't mind?


----------



## MoeBirds (Jun 22, 2005)

ryanwhit said:
			
		

> Pheasants may live to maturity, but will likely not reproduce.  Viable populations of pheasants are beleived to be impossible in the southeast because of the amount of photoperiod during breeding season (they are not correctly triggered to breed physiologically).  However, they may live to maturity and beyond into the next season...
> 
> I'm not sure about chukars, but it wouldn't suprise me if it was the same with them.  Give it shot and see how it goes...
> 
> btw, what plantation, if you don't mind?




I didn't know that about pheasants!? 
THANKS  !!!

The place I help out at is:

Fox Trail Hunting Preserve
Tennile,GA.

It's bird-shooting only-dove,quail,pheasant,chukar.

They raise them _on property _ and also supply other preserves during the season.

It's currently about 600+ acres, so it might not be as successful as it would on 2000 acres contiguous. 
The owners have lease options on surrounding lands though, so we'll see what they think this weekend  !?


ps; One of their seasonal-neighbors is a semi-famous trapper named _Slim Peterson _ if I'm not mistaken?!.......so _that_ would help  !!!


----------



## bull0ne (Jun 22, 2005)

Greg Lewis said:
			
		

> ps; One of their seasonal-neighbors is a semi-famous trapper named _Slim Peterson _ if I'm not mistaken?!.......so _that_ would help  !!!



Slim is a legend in the trapping industry, he has written many books on the subject and helped out on some others.


----------



## 308winchester (Jun 23, 2005)

*I Havent Seen Anyone*

say anything about feral cats ... house cats are a birds worst enemy ! NOT FERAL DOGS  !
HATE THEM CATS   
please spay and neuter


----------



## ryanwhit (Jun 23, 2005)

308winchester said:
			
		

> say anything about feral cats ... house cats are a birds worst enemy ! NOT FERAL DOGS  !
> HATE THEM CATS
> please spay and neuter



Feral cats can be (and are in many places) a major problem to songbirds and gamebirds.  

However, they are not nearly as big of a problem as habitat, land use changes, introduction of exotic pasture grasses.

That being said, I shoot every feral cat I can!


----------

