# FFL/Gun Law Question



## Capt Quirk (Sep 15, 2017)

It was my understanding, of something I heard from a few individuals in the Holster Community, that I can not accept a Firearm from a client in order to use it as a holster mold. I would need to have a FFL license to do so legally. From what I read on the FFL site, it is meant for the manufacture or importing of firearms, which I'm not doing either. I am not purchasing nor selling firearms. Maybe any Gunsmiths could answer this?


----------



## georgia_home (Sep 15, 2017)

In most states, you can loan/borrow firearms, no problem

Some commie states require a BGC for this activity. I am pretty sure Georgia does NOT require these checks to borrow, loan, or do private sales.

Interstate may be different, for pistols. Crossing a state line, does weird things.


----------



## trial&error (Sep 16, 2017)

Are you referring to them being mailed or shipped to you?


----------



## Capt Quirk (Sep 16, 2017)

@trial&error- Usually, just local drop off and pick up... or pick up and drop off. But there has been one fella in a different state, and I would have needed his pistol, just because it was a different set up. That never happened, but still, I'd like to know.


----------



## Steve762us (Sep 17, 2017)

Sounds like someone in the Holster Community is trying to 
discourage competition.


----------



## wareagle700 (Sep 17, 2017)

Not sure on receiving a firearm in the mail without a FFL, but as long as you aren't prohibited from posessing a firearm you can use your customers firearms with their consent.


----------



## frankwright (Sep 17, 2017)

If you are not an FFL you cannon receive handguns in the mail from out of state or in state.
You can loan or borrow handguns anytime to use as a holster pattern as long as state lines are not crossed.


----------



## wareagle700 (Sep 17, 2017)

frankwright said:


> You can loan or borrow handguns anytime to use as a holster pattern as long as state lines are not crossed.



Whats the deal with that? Why would it be illegal to cross state lines with a pistol?


----------



## georgia_home (Sep 17, 2017)

Federal law prohibits transfers across state lines without an ffl.



wareagle700 said:


> Whats the deal with that? Why would it be illegal to cross state lines with a pistol?


----------



## wareagle700 (Sep 17, 2017)

georgia_home said:


> Federal law prohibits transfers across state lines without an ffl.



I don't think were talking about transfer of ownership or buying a pistol out of state.

My question is why would it be illegal to cross state lines with a pistol that you were legally in posession of.


----------



## georgia_home (Sep 17, 2017)

The op was talking in one of his examples, that an out of state client was going to need to provide a pistol. Check the first post, and one several down. EDIT: posts 1 and 4 with 4 specifically saying from an Out of state client.

That was the op discussion. That would be a transfer, even if it were to be returned. The op stated he isn't an ffl. 

You can take your pistol with you across state lines as long as you don't transfer ownership while there. And you're not going to NJ CA HI and several other of the more communist states.



wareagle700 said:


> I don't think were talking about transfer of ownership or buying a pistol out of state.
> 
> My question is why would it be illegal to cross state lines with a pistol that you were legally in posession of.


----------



## trial&error (Sep 17, 2017)

No one has been charged with illegal ownership,  they are charged with illegal possession.

Mail requires an FFL.  Drop off and pickup I wouldn't imagine requires anything more than a private sale of a gun would.   Can the person legally possess a gun.  If you do leather work and you are a convicted felon, then holsters should probably be avoided.  I never filled out a form with a gunsmith.  If this is more than a hobby I would consult an actual lawyer.


----------



## wareagle700 (Sep 17, 2017)

georgia_home said:


> The op was talking in one of his examples, that an out of state client was going to need to provide a pistol. Check the first post, and one several down. EDIT: posts 1 and 4 with 4 specifically saying from an Out of state client.
> 
> That was the op discussion. That would be a transfer, even if it were to be returned. The op stated he isn't an ffl.
> 
> You can take your pistol with you across state lines as long as you don't transfer ownership while there. And you're not going to NJ CA HI and several other of the more communist states.



Right.

My original question wasn't about transfering or shipping the gun out of state to an individual. It was about traveling with a handgun across state lines, as I quoted from frankwright. He may have been referring to mail only, which would make his second comment correct.


Also, reading on the ATF's site, it seems "unlicensed persons" can ship and receive firearms in the mail as long as it is within the same state. When state lines are crossed via mail, thats when FFL's become a requirement. At least that was my interpretation.

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/0813-firearms-top-12-qaspdf/download


----------



## Capt Quirk (Sep 17, 2017)

My holsters are nice, but not nice enough to cross state lines to get one. I have been told that if a pistol had the cylinder or firing pin removed, it was ok to mail, or maybe UPS.


----------



## wareagle700 (Sep 18, 2017)

Capt Quirk said:


> My holsters are nice, but not nice enough to cross state lines to get one. I have been told that if a pistol had the cylinder or firing pin removed, it was ok to mail, or maybe UPS.



Thats also incorrect. The serialized part of the firearm, usually the frame on a handgun, is the firearm. You can ship everything *but that serialized part* across state lines to unlicensed persons.


----------



## Capt Quirk (Sep 18, 2017)

That's good to know. Thanks for the info.


----------



## jmoser (Sep 19, 2017)

Gunsmiths require FFL to work on serialized components even without interstate shipment.  Even just engraving:

_Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms?

Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer._

_[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11) and (21); 27 CFR 478.11]_


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 19, 2017)

http://multimoldguns.com/


----------



## Capt Quirk (Sep 19, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> http://multimoldguns.com/


I know them, and do order holster dummy guns. But, they run about $50 and up. Not really a problem. BUT, when you have a pistol with a unique setup, such as a scoped SBH, an exact dummy is unlikely. This is where having access to certain pistols helps. It keeps cost down, which is passed on to the customer. It guarantees an exact fit.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 19, 2017)

Capt Quirk said:


> I know them, and do order holster dummy guns. But, they run about $50 and up. Not really a problem. BUT, when you have a pistol with a unique setup, such as a scoped SBH, an exact dummy is unlikely. This is where having access to certain pistols helps. It keeps cost down, which is passed on to the customer. It guarantees an exact fit.


----------



## treemanjohn (Sep 25, 2017)

OK I'll preface by saying I'm a firearms dealer and have a pretty good  handle on the laws. I did send you a PM. Take my advice for what it's worth. 

A person can ship any firearm to themselves in another state as long as someone in the other state DOESN"T OPEN THE PACKAGE OR TAKE POSSESSION OF THE FIREARM. I'm going to assume thats you would fall under that law. When you open the package you now are in full possession of the firearm regardless of what you're doing with it.


----------



## GunnSmokeer (Nov 3, 2017)

I'm late to this party, but I'll throw in my two cents' anyway.
I haven't done any "legal research" on this, but a quick Google search tells me this:

1-- You don't need an FFL to make gun accessories like holsters.

2-- ATF has some odd views on what is a "transfer" of a firearm. They include loaning one for a short period of time, but they call this a "disposition" of the gun.  I don't consider any temporary short-term load a disposition.  

For years, ATF did not require gun writers to have an FFL to directly receive new firearms sent to them by gun manufacturers, for the writers to test and write reviews on.  Now the BATF does require this; you can't be a non-FFL gun writer and get your guns shipped directly to you anymore.  You have to go through an FFL, because this is a "transfer." Even if you're only allowed to have the gun for a couple of weeks while you evaluate it and write-up the story.

3-- If the intent and purpose of the Federal Firearms Act of 1938 , as amended by the Gun Control Act of 1968, was to identify and register businesses that regularly handle, store, ship, and deliver guns as part of their work, then a holster maker who uses real guns to mold holsters  would need an FFL.

Here's a page from ATF's site that explains what they consider to be, or not be, an interstate "transfer."

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-9/download


----------



## Kendallbearden (Mar 23, 2018)

Capt Quirk said:


> It was my understanding, of something I heard from a few individuals in the Holster Community, that I can not accept a Firearm from a client in order to use it as a holster mold. I would need to have a FFL license to do so legally. From what I read on the FFL site, it is meant for the manufacture or importing of firearms, which I'm not doing either. I am not purchasing nor selling firearms. Maybe any Gunsmiths could answer this?



I know this post is old, but if you are making holsters you can order blue guns that are identical replicas (including with most common lights and lasers) for around $55 and have them shipped directly to your door. That is probably cheaper than shipping a firearm through an FFL and having to pay transfer fees on both ends. Plus, you can keep the blue gun in case you need it again for a future project. 

http://www.blueguns.com/default.asp

Just an idea


----------

