# Arrow flight from stand



## whitetailbass90 (Sep 28, 2017)

Hey y'all, I'm sure this has already been answered in a previous thread, but should gravity affect my arrow flight from the stand as compared to on the ground(especially at farther distances)? My pins are set from the ground, and I was shooting from my porch at 5yards tall, and my bag was as 20 with the rangefinder. I was hitting dead on with no adjustment to my 20 yard pin.


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## Permitchaser (Sep 28, 2017)

Then what are you worried about. There is a little pralax that exists using pins shooting down. I use a pendulum sight that takes care of it

Is your tree stand 5' tall you would be Wise to shoot from something that approx a mates your stand night
Then you might find about Mr paralx


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## deerslayer0369 (Sep 28, 2017)

Bend at the waist and problem solved my friend. If you shoot over their back it could be possibly 3 things, two of which you can control. One possibility would be that you  just misjudged yardage, #2 (and most likely the case) you brought the bow on target with your arms and DID NOT bend at the waist to bring bow onto target, and #3 would be that the "target" ducked the shot. Hope this helps. Another tip, don't go sky high on your set ups. The shot angle created by this makes the vitals a much smaller target not allowing for wiggle room. My highest set is about 18', find the right tree with another tree right beside it with some limbs/canopy roughly @ 15' along with it being in the shadows. The goal is for concealment and not to get silhouetted. Good luck and stick a big en.


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## BowanaLee (Sep 28, 2017)

whitetailbass90 said:


> Hey y'all, I'm sure this has already been answered in a previous thread, but should gravity affect my arrow flight from the stand as compared to on the ground(especially at farther distances)? My pins are set from the ground, and I was shooting from my porch at 5yards tall, and my bag was as 20 with the rangefinder. I was hitting dead on with no adjustment to my 20 yard pin.



15' high is probably not high enough to make much difference. Best way to test is get up in your climber and shoot at the distances you'll use hunting.


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## whitetailbass90 (Sep 29, 2017)

So my 30 and 40 pins should not need any adjustment, right?


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## kiltman (Sep 29, 2017)

you shouldn't have to move your pins at all.  If your 20-30 feet in a tree you will want to aim a little low.  I hunt at 20-25 feet up, my rangefinder shows my target at 30 yards, but the angle comp says to aim like like its 29 yards.  it's about the same a 40 yards.


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## Kris87 (Sep 29, 2017)

I don't hold low ever.  At most heights, there's a one yard difference at most.  When I range trees, I range them at the height I'm at, not at their base.  The only time I alter my aim spot is on straight down shots.  I hold a hair high then.


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## Turkeyhunter3400 (Sep 30, 2017)

If you estimate the distance from the base of the tree to your target instead of the distance from you to the target  it will eliminate the gravity issue. The base of the tree may be 20 yards from the target while the shooter, 15 feet high, may be 22.


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## BowanaLee (Sep 30, 2017)

Kris87 said:


> I don't hold low ever.  At most heights, there's a one yard difference at most.  When I range trees, I range them at the height I'm at, not at their base.  The only time I alter my aim spot is on straight down shots.  I hold a hair high then.



I agree with the first part but I hold low for tree stand shots under 20 yds or I''ll hit high.


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## uturn (Sep 30, 2017)

^^^Agreed^^^


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## Antler Addict (Oct 1, 2017)

Bend at the waist !!


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## Totaloutdoorsman (Oct 1, 2017)

You only adjust for the horizontal distance. Line of sight will be greater but gravity only affects the arrow/ bullet over the horizontal distance. Think base of the tree to the deer. I measure out all of my ranges before I climb into the stand so I know from the base of the tree what my angle compensated ranges are. Hope this helps.


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## Derek Snider (Oct 1, 2017)

Totaloutdoorsman said:


> You only adjust for the horizontal distance. Line of sight will be greater but gravity only affects the arrow/ bullet over the horizontal distance. Think base of the tree to the deer. I measure out all of my ranges before I climb into the stand so I know from the base of the tree what my angle compensated ranges are. Hope this helps.



This is correct. Don't take our word for it though or the physics behind it. Hang or climb up to your average hunting height and shoot your bow. You will hit high and you can adjust accordingly or just aim a little low if you your equipment well. You should aim low when shooting straight up or up and at an angle as well. The same physics apply in which gravity effects the arrow less than it would when shooting from flat ground. I'm not saying the difference will be drastic, but there will be a difference. As to how much depends on the speed of your bow and how steep of an angle. The steeper the angle, the more low we should aim. So for straight down, gravity has almost zero effect and I aim several inches low. I would aim at edge of the deers body closest to the tree to split the shoulder blades if I shot at a deer straight under me.


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## across the river (Oct 1, 2017)

Totaloutdoorsman said:


> You only adjust for the horizontal distance. Line of sight will be greater but gravity only affects the arrow/ bullet over the horizontal distance. Think base of the tree to the deer. I measure out all of my ranges before I climb into the stand so I know from the base of the tree what my angle compensated ranges are. Hope this helps.



This isn't true.  You should be able to use the same pin regardless of whether you are in the tree or on the ground.  Most of  the troubles people have comes from people shooting in a different position from the tree than from the ground, which is why they say bend at the waist.  Not to get into a bunch of math, but acceleration due to gravity is 32feet/s^2 in the vertical (downward) direction regardless of which direction you are shooting.  The time it takes for your arrow to get to the deer determines the drop you get, regardless of where you shoot from.  For example purposes, say a bow shoots 300fps, the arrow would travel for .3 seconds and drop 1.4 feet on a 30 yard shot if shot perfectly horizontal on the ground.  When you are on the ground, you obviously aim 1.4 feet high on a 30 yard shot if sighted in perfectly.  When shooting from a stand, you are still shooting 30 yards in the second example.  You still have to account for 1.4 feet of drop due to gravity, because it will take the arrow the same about of time to go the 30 yards between you and the deer, and the 30 yard pin should account for that, just like it does when you are flat on the ground.  The arrow is traveling 300 fps along that dotted line in both the first and second drawing.  If the arrow theoretically traveled perfect alone the dotted line at 300 fps, whether on the ground or in the tree, it would take the arrow the same amount of time to get to the deer, even though the horizontal distance is different.  This means you have got account for the same amount of drop due to gravity, regardless of whether you are shooting from the ground or the stand.   The magnitude of the drop due to gravity is a result of time and nothing else.  If you use the 20 yard pin from the tree, then you are accounting for "less" drop because the arrow is still traveling 30 yards and still takes .3 seconds to get to the deer. If you use the 20 yard pin, you will be low, just like you would on the ground.   The faster the bow shoot though, the less time it takes the arrow to get there, so the less impact you see from gravity, regardless of where you are shooting from.


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## ProAngler (Oct 1, 2017)

across the river said:


> This isn't true.  You should be able to use the same pin regardless of whether you are in the tree or on the ground.  Most of  the troubles people have comes from people shooting in a different position from the tree than from the ground, which is why they say bend at the waist.  Not to get into a bunch of math, but acceleration due to gravity is 32feet/s^2 in the vertical (downward) direction regardless of which direction you are shooting.  The time it takes for your arrow to get to the deer determines the drop you get, regardless of where you shoot from.  For example purposes, say a bow shoots 300fps, the arrow would travel for .3 seconds and drop 1.4 feet on a 30 yard shot if shot perfectly horizontal on the ground.  When you are on the ground, you obviously aim 1.4 feet high on a 30 yard shot if sighted in perfectly.  When shooting from a stand, you are still shooting 30 yards in the second example.  You still have to account for 1.4 feet of drop due to gravity, because it will take the arrow the same about of time to go the 30 yards between you and the deer, and the 30 yard pin should account for that, just like it does when you are flat on the ground.  The arrow is traveling 300 fps along that dotted line in both the first and second drawing.  If the arrow theoretically traveled perfect alone the dotted line at 300 fps, whether on the ground or in the tree, it would take the arrow the same amount of time to get to the deer, even though the horizontal distance is different.  This means you have got account for the same amount of drop due to gravity, regardless of whether you are shooting from the ground or the stand.   The magnitude of the drop due to gravity is a result of time and nothing else.  If you use the 20 yard pin from the tree, then you are accounting for "less" drop because the arrow is still traveling 30 yards and still takes .3 seconds to get to the deer. If you use the 20 yard pin, you will be low, just like you would on the ground.   The faster the bow shoot though, the less time it takes the arrow to get there, so the less impact you see from gravity, regardless of where you are shooting from
> 
> But at some point the angle of the force (gravity) is pulling from also has to be taken into account.  For instance, if you are 30 yards hight and shoot strait down at a target you would miss  with your 30 yard pin. Since gravity would be pullling at the same anglefif your shot, it would not pull it off the mark in any direction. Although, that would probably not come into play ever unless hunting extreme terrain. It would be fun to experiment with though.


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## Kris87 (Oct 1, 2017)

Oh geez...


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## mark-7mag (Oct 1, 2017)

ProAngler said:


> across the river said:
> 
> 
> > This isn't true.  You should be able to use the same pin regardless of whether you are in the tree or on the ground.  Most of  the troubles people have comes from people shooting in a different position from the tree than from the ground, which is why they say bend at the waist.  Not to get into a bunch of math, but acceleration due to gravity is 32feet/s^2 in the vertical (downward) direction regardless of which direction you are shooting.  The time it takes for your arrow to get to the deer determines the drop you get, regardless of where you shoot from.  For example purposes, say a bow shoots 300fps, the arrow would travel for .3 seconds and drop 1.4 feet on a 30 yard shot if shot perfectly horizontal on the ground.  When you are on the ground, you obviously aim 1.4 feet high on a 30 yard shot if sighted in perfectly.  When shooting from a stand, you are still shooting 30 yards in the second example.  You still have to account for 1.4 feet of drop due to gravity, because it will take the arrow the same about of time to go the 30 yards between you and the deer, and the 30 yard pin should account for that, just like it does when you are flat on the ground.  The arrow is traveling 300 fps along that dotted line in both the first and second drawing.  If the arrow theoretically traveled perfect alone the dotted line at 300 fps, whether on the ground or in the tree, it would take the arrow the same amount of time to get to the deer, even though the horizontal distance is different.  This means you have got account for the same amount of drop due to gravity, regardless of whether you are shooting from the ground or the stand.   The magnitude of the drop due to gravity is a result of time and nothing else.  If you use the 20 yard pin from the tree, then you are accounting for "less" drop because the arrow is still traveling 30 yards and still takes .3 seconds to get to the deer. If you use the 20 yard pin, you will be low, just like you would on the ground.   The faster the bow shoot though, the less time it takes the arrow to get there, so the less impact you see from gravity, regardless of where you are shooting from
> ...


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## mark-7mag (Oct 1, 2017)

ProAngler said:


> across the river said:
> 
> 
> > This isn't true.  You should be able to use the same pin regardless of whether you are in the tree or on the ground.  Most of  the troubles people have comes from people shooting in a different position from the tree than from the ground, which is why they say bend at the waist.  Not to get into a bunch of math, but acceleration due to gravity is 32feet/s^2 in the vertical (downward) direction regardless of which direction you are shooting.  The time it takes for your arrow to get to the deer determines the drop you get, regardless of where you shoot from.  For example purposes, say a bow shoots 300fps, the arrow would travel for .3 seconds and drop 1.4 feet on a 30 yard shot if shot perfectly horizontal on the ground.  When you are on the ground, you obviously aim 1.4 feet high on a 30 yard shot if sighted in perfectly.  When shooting from a stand, you are still shooting 30 yards in the second example.  You still have to account for 1.4 feet of drop due to gravity, because it will take the arrow the same about of time to go the 30 yards between you and the deer, and the 30 yard pin should account for that, just like it does when you are flat on the ground.  The arrow is traveling 300 fps along that dotted line in both the first and second drawing.  If the arrow theoretically traveled perfect alone the dotted line at 300 fps, whether on the ground or in the tree, it would take the arrow the same amount of time to get to the deer, even though the horizontal distance is different.  This means you have got account for the same amount of drop due to gravity, regardless of whether you are shooting from the ground or the stand.   The magnitude of the drop due to gravity is a result of time and nothing else.  If you use the 20 yard pin from the tree, then you are accounting for "less" drop because the arrow is still traveling 30 yards and still takes .3 seconds to get to the deer. If you use the 20 yard pin, you will be low, just like you would on the ground.   The faster the bow shoot though, the less time it takes the arrow to get there, so the less impact you see from gravity, regardless of where you are shooting from
> ...


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## across the river (Oct 1, 2017)

ProAngler said:


> But at some point the angle of the force (gravity) is pulling from also has to be taken into account.  For instance, if you are 30 yards hight and shoot strait down at a target you would miss  with your 30 yard pin. Since gravity would be pullling at the same anglefif your shot, it would not pull it off the mark in any direction. Although, that would probably not come into play ever unless hunting extreme terrain. It would be fun to experiment with though.




If you sight you bow in at 30 yards on the ground, you are actually shooting slightly above horizontal to account for the drop.  The slower your bow, the larger this angle will be.  If you were for some reason 90 feet in a tree and you used you 30 yard pin, yes you would be shooting the same angle off of vertical that you would be off of horizontal when you were shooting from horizontal, but that has nothing to do with gravity pulling the arrow straight done, it has to do with the fact that you wouldn't be actually shooting straight down with a 30 yard pin. I guess in that situation it is possible for you to miss.   However, in the real world, 99.9% of people are 15 - 25 feet in a tree, not 90 feet.   In that case it is a 10 yard or less shot straight down, and unless the bow is super, super, slow, a 10 yard pin is essentially horizontal for most people.  There won't be a shot where you will have to worry about it.


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## across the river (Oct 1, 2017)

mark-7mag said:


> ProAngler said:
> 
> 
> > Huh ?
> ...


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## BowanaLee (Oct 2, 2017)

whitetailbass90 said:


> Hey y'all, I'm sure this has already been answered in a previous thread, but should gravity affect my arrow flight from the stand as compared to on the ground(especially at farther distances)? My pins are set from the ground, and I was shooting from my porch at 5yards tall, and my bag was as 20 with the rangefinder. I was hitting dead on with no adjustment to my 20 yard pin.



15' isn't very high. At 20 yds it won't effect you much. Your only about a yard farther. I think the point is being lost here. When you shoot from a tree the actual distance increases but you shoot it for the horizontal distance at ground level. For instance, if you get 25 ft up a tree on a steep hill and a deer is down hill 20 yds from the base of your tree. Depending on the hill, you may shoot it with your range finder and see the line of sight or actual distance may be as much as 27 to 30 yds. You still shoot it for 20 yds or you'll hit high. Thats where angle compensating range finders come in. Yes its really 27 to 30 yds but gravity doesn't effect a downward shot as much as a horizontal shot.  If the deer is down hill from where your tree comes out of the ground, you'll have to draw your line under ground to your tree. ...Get it now ? 
Post # 12 by Totaloutdoorsman  is correct.


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## davidhelmly (Oct 3, 2017)

??? And the op just asked a simple question. ???


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## across the river (Oct 3, 2017)

BowanaLee said:


> 15' isn't very high. At 20 yds it won't effect you much. Your only about a yard farther. I think the point is being lost here. When you shoot from a tree the actual distance increases but you shoot it for the horizontal distance at ground level. For instance, if you get 25 ft up a tree on a steep hill and a deer is down hill 20 yds from the base of your tree. Depending on the hill, you may shoot it with your range finder and see the line of sight or actual distance may be as much as 27 to 30 yds. You still shoot it for 20 yds or you'll hit high. Thats where angle compensating range finders come in. Yes its really 27 to 30 yds but gravity doesn't effect a downward shot as much as a horizontal shot.  If the deer is down hill from where your tree comes out of the ground, you'll have to draw your line under ground to your tree. ...Get it now ?
> Post # 12 by Totaloutdoorsman  is correct.



This isn't correct at all.  Gravity affects all shots the same, it pulls straight down at 32 ft/s^2 regardless of whether you are shooting horizontal, up, straight down, it doesn't matter.   It doesn't impact the horizontal velocity at all.  30 yards is thirty in distance is 30 yards regardless of the whether you shoot horizontally or from a stand.  If you are shooting horizontally, you arrow is flying 300 fps horizontally.  Gravity just causes the arrow to drop that is it, so the arrow will reach the target at 30 yards in .3 seconds.   If you are aiming down at an angle from a stand, you are still shooting 30 yards along a line toward the target, and that arrow still leaves the bow at 300 fps on a line directly toward the target. Yes, the horizontal distance from the tree is shorter, but the horizontal velocity of the arrow is less.  The arrow is still traveling at 300 fps in the straight line toward the target, but it is traveling less than 300 fps in the horizontally direction.  It will then cove the shorter horizontal distance in essentially the same time it would cover the horizontal distance at 30 yards.   The distance does to the target doesn't change.


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## Kris87 (Oct 3, 2017)

I used to hunt at 90 feet, but the physics got too complicated, so I moved back down to 20 feet.  No more issues.


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## 2bbshot (Oct 3, 2017)

I just shoot them through the ribs and go on lol. The 30 meters high made me laugh. Im not man enough for that. about 18-22 feet is my zone lol


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## BowanaLee (Oct 3, 2017)

across the river said:


> This isn't correct at all.  Gravity affects all shots the same, it pulls straight down at 32 ft/s^2 regardless of whether you are shooting horizontal, up, straight down, it doesn't matter.   It doesn't impact the horizontal velocity at all.  30 yards is thirty in distance is 30 yards regardless of the whether you shoot horizontally or from a stand.  If you are shooting horizontally, you arrow is flying 300 fps horizontally.  Gravity just causes the arrow to drop that is it, so the arrow will reach the target at 30 yards in .3 seconds.   If you are aiming down at an angle from a stand, you are still shooting 30 yards along a line toward the target, and that arrow still leaves the bow at 300 fps on a line directly toward the target. Yes, the horizontal distance from the tree is shorter, but the horizontal velocity of the arrow is less.  The arrow is still traveling at 300 fps in the straight line toward the target, but it is traveling less than 300 fps in the horizontally direction.  It will then cove the shorter horizontal distance in essentially the same time it would cover the horizontal distance at 30 yards.   The distance does to the target doesn't change.



Were talking about shooting from a tree stand. I don't know what your talking about unless your just trying to .  
There’s a big difference between straight line and vertical compensated range. This is of most concern to bowhunters shooting from elevated stands or in steep terrain. On steep downhill shots, aiming for a straight line range provided by a laser rangefinder will result in a high hit. This is all a matter of geometry and actual distance changes with angles and height. The industry has addressed the issue with accurate angle compensated rangefinders.  
They wouldn't make these rangefinders if there wasn't a need.     You use your figures and I'll use my angle compensated rangefinders, we'll see who kills the most deer.


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## Totaloutdoorsman (Oct 3, 2017)

from a tree stand it’s not a huge issue. You run into this more with longer range rifle shooting but the same principles still apply regardless. You can say “not true” all you want but it’s physics and science. It doesn’t lie. If I’m at an angle, shooting either up or down, you have to take the angle into consideration. You will shoot high either way. Let me try and break this down Barney style for the people that don’t get it. I’m 25’ up a tree. My target is on the ground 35 yards away that I laser range (not a fancy angle compensated model{which totally eliminates this entire argument to begin with}) from my tree stand. Straight line distance is going to be greater than horizontal distance. Gravity always works the same... got it. Gravity just works in a horizontal way. The flat ground distance to my target (base of the tree I’m in to the target) is actually 28 yards. That is the range you aim for. Your arrow will hit high because gravity only affects your arrow for 28 yards. If you use your 35 yard pin you will shoot over the deer. Reference my picture please before you claim stuff isn’t true and have no knowledge of what you’re denying.


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## Kris87 (Oct 3, 2017)

Totaloutdoorsman said:


> from a tree stand it’s not a huge issue. You run into this more with longer range rifle shooting but the same principles still apply regardless. You can say “not true” all you want but it’s physics and science. It doesn’t lie. If I’m at an angle, shooting either up or down, you have to take the angle into consideration. You will shoot high either way. Let me try and break this down Barney style for the people that don’t get it. I’m 25’ up a tree. My target is on the ground 35 yards away that I laser range (not a fancy angle compensated model{which totally eliminates this entire argument to begin with}) from my tree stand. Straight line distance is going to be greater than horizontal distance. Gravity always works the same... got it. Gravity just works in a horizontal way. The flat ground distance to my target (base of the tree I’m in to the target) is actually 28 yards. That is the range you aim for. Your arrow will hit high because gravity only affects your arrow for 28 yards. If you use your 35 yard pin you will shoot over the deer. Reference my picture please before you claim stuff isn’t true and have no knowledge of what you’re denying.



Most of us here understand the principle you're trying to explain.  However, in your scenario above, the distance is more likely 33 or 34 yards horizontally, not 28, when you're only 25 feet high.  Angle compensating rangefinders aren't really needed for shooting from a 20 or 25 foot stand.  I test mine all the time in trees.  I shoot the base of a tree...it reads 22.  I shoot it at 20 feet up, it reads 21.  Its just not that much of a difference for me to EVER worry about.  Out west, shooting up or down canyons, sure cut yardage.  Here, not so much.


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## Totaloutdoorsman (Oct 3, 2017)

across the river said:


> This isn't correct at all.  Gravity affects all shots the same, it pulls straight down at 32 ft/s^2 regardless of whether you are shooting horizontal, up, straight down, it doesn't matter.   It doesn't impact the horizontal velocity at all.  30 yards is thirty in distance is 30 yards regardless of the whether you shoot horizontally or from a stand.  If you are shooting horizontally, you arrow is flying 300 fps horizontally.  Gravity just causes the arrow to drop that is it, so the arrow will reach the target at 30 yards in .3 seconds.   If you are aiming down at an angle from a stand, you are still shooting 30 yards along a line toward the target, and that arrow still leaves the bow at 300 fps on a line directly toward the target. Yes, the horizontal distance from the tree is shorter, but the horizontal velocity of the arrow is less.  The arrow is still traveling at 300 fps in the straight line toward the target, but it is traveling less than 300 fps in the horizontally direction.  It will then cove the shorter horizontal distance in essentially the same time it would cover the horizontal distance at 30 yards.   The distance does to the target doesn't change.



I believe your getting wrapped around velocity of the arrow and FPS in terms of arrow ballistics too much. Gravity affects things the same regardless. It doesn’t matter how fast your bow shoots or how long it takes to travel from your bow to the target. It’s a matter of your sights being zeroed for a set range. If my pin is zeroed for 25 yards on flat ground then my pin is compensating for the amount gravity is pulling my arrow down in order to hit where I want at 25 yards. If I’m up a tree and my target is line of sight at 30 yards but flat ground distance is 25 yards then gravity is still having the same effect over that 25 yard distance. I use my 25 yard pin and hit where I want because my arrow ballistics are zeroed at that range. If you use your 30 yard pin you will hit high because your pin is zeroed for 30 yards. It would be the same as using your 30 yard pin at a 25 yard target on flat ground.


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## Totaloutdoorsman (Oct 3, 2017)

Kris87 said:


> Most of us here understand the principle you're trying to explain.  However, in your scenario above, the distance is more likely 33 or 34 yards horizontally, not 28, when you're only 25 feet high.  Angle compensating rangefinders aren't really needed for shooting from a 20 or 25 foot stand.  I test mine all the time in trees.  I shoot the base of a tree...it reads 22.  I shoot it at 20 feet up, it reads 21.  Its just not that much of a difference for me to EVER worry about.  Out west, shooting up or down canyons, sure cut yardage.  Here, not so much.



It was more of an exaggerated yardage to get the point across. Knocking off 1 yard from the figure wouldn’t carry as much weight. I get what you’re saying though.


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## BowanaLee (Oct 3, 2017)

davidhelmly said:


> ??? And the op just asked a simple question. ???


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## across the river (Oct 3, 2017)

I will do the math for everyone, since many of you are confused.    If you are shooting 300 fps flat on the ground at 30 yards(90 ft), straight out, it takes the arrow .3 seconds to get to the target. The arrow is going 300 fps for 90 feet horizontally, so the math is easy. The arrow is initially not dropping, but it would be falling at 9.6 fps downward due to gravity when it hit the target.  If you calculate it out, the arrow would drop 1.44 feet over that .3 seconds due to gravity.  If you are in a tree stand at 15 feet, and the deer is 30 yards(90 ft) from you via a straight line, you have formed a right triangle. Therefore the distance from the bottom of the tree to the deer is 87.5 feet.  You would therefore be shooting down at an angle of ~9.5 degrees below horizontal, so your horizontal velocity is now only 296 fps, not 300.  Since you are aiming downward some, the arrow also now has a downward vertical velocity of 50 fps.  If you divide 87.5 horizontal feet from the tree by the 296 fps horizontal velocity you now have from the stand, you get the same .3 seconds you get shooting 30 yards on flat ground with a horizontal velocity of 300 fps.  This is because 30 yards in a straight line is 30 yards regardless of direction.  Since the arrow was started downward at 50 fps, gravity will add another 9.6 fps of velocity to it, just like it did when you were shooting on flat ground.   The average velocity would therefore be 54.8 fps downward, over the .3 seconds it takes to reach the target.  54.8 fps X .3 seconds = 16.4 feet.   You are in the tree at 15 feet, which means you would have to account for a 1.4 foot drop due to gravity.    This is the same 1.4 feet of drop that you get when shooting on flat ground.   If you use a 20 yard pin to shoot 30 yards, you run the potential to shot low, because you are then only accounting for .64 foot of drop.

People get confused because they don't realize that gravity pulls downward at the same rate, regardless of how fas something is moving horizontally.   Say four guys are standing together. One shoots a 30-06, one shoots a BB gun, one shoots a bow, and one rolls a golf ball off a table, and they all do it simultaneously.  As long as they were all shot horizontally, from the same height, and on flat ground, both bullets, the arrow, and the golf ball would all hit the ground at the same time.   The acceleration downward due to gravity is consistent for all of them. It has nothing to do with how fast they are going horizontally.  How far they would drop is a function of time only.  The arrow from a fast bow will "drop" less than one from a slower bow, only because it is in the air for a shorter period of time.


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## j_seph (Oct 3, 2017)

Just drew this right quick, height on left is in feet all others is in yards 3 foot to a yard


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## Kris87 (Oct 3, 2017)

You guys are making this way too complicated.  All you have to do is fletch your arrows with a lot of helical, and then you don't have to worry about gravity. 

Look, I sketched it all out for you guys....Real world right here!


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## northgeorgiasportsman (Oct 3, 2017)

Kris87 said:


> You guys are making this way too complicated.  All you have to do is fletch your arrows with a lot of helical, and then you don't have to worry about gravity.
> 
> Look, I sketched it all out for you guys....Real world right here!





I know this, I suck at math but I've killed a pile of deer.


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## j_seph (Oct 3, 2017)

Kris87 said:


> You guys are making this way too complicated.  All you have to do is fletch your arrows with a lot of helical, and then you don't have to worry about gravity.
> 
> Look, I sketched it all out for you guys....Real world right here!


At that angle you just gut shot that Whitetail Moose



p.s. you forgot to sketch the High Fence on there


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## j_seph (Oct 3, 2017)

across the river said:


> I will do the math for everyone, since many of you are confused.    If you are shooting 300 fps flat on the ground at 30 yards(90 ft), straight out, it takes the arrow .3 seconds to get to the target. *The arrow is going 300 fps for 90 feet* horizontally, so the math is easy. The arrow is initially not dropping, but it would be falling at 9.6 fps downward due to gravity when it hit the target.  If you calculate it out, the arrow would drop 1.44 feet over that .3 seconds due to gravity.  If you are in a tree stand at 15 feet, and the deer is 30 yards(90 ft) from you via a straight line, you have formed a right triangle. Therefore the distance from the bottom of the tree to the deer is 87.5 feet.  You would therefore be shooting down at an angle of ~9.5 degrees below horizontal, so your horizontal velocity is now only 296 fps, not 300.  Since you are aiming downward some, the arrow also now has a downward vertical velocity of 50 fps.  If you divide 87.5 horizontal feet from the tree by the 296 fps horizontal velocity you now have from the stand, you get the same .3 seconds you get shooting 30 yards on flat ground with a horizontal velocity of 300 fps.  This is because 30 yards in a straight line is 30 yards regardless of direction.  Since the arrow was started downward at 50 fps, gravity will add another 9.6 fps of velocity to it, just like it did when you were shooting on flat ground.   The average velocity would therefore be 54.8 fps downward, over the .3 seconds it takes to reach the target.  54.8 fps X .3 seconds = 16.4 feet.   You are in the tree at 15 feet, which means you would have to account for a 1.4 foot drop due to gravity.    This is the same 1.4 feet of drop that you get when shooting on flat ground.   If you use a 20 yard pin to shoot 30 yards, you run the potential to shot low, because you are then only accounting for .64 foot of drop.
> 
> People get confused because they don't realize that gravity pulls downward at the same rate, regardless of how fas something is moving horizontally.   Say four guys are standing together. One shoots a 30-06, one shoots a BB gun, one shoots a bow, and one rolls a golf ball off a table, and they all do it simultaneously.  As long as they were all shot horizontally, from the same height, and on flat ground, both bullets, the arrow, and the golf ball would all hit the ground at the same time.   The acceleration downward due to gravity is consistent for all of them. It has nothing to do with how fast they are going horizontally.  How far they would drop is a function of time only.  The arrow from a fast bow will "drop" less than one from a slower bow, only because it is in the air for a shorter period of time.


Wrong!


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## Hunting 4 Him (Oct 3, 2017)

This post makes my head hurt


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## northgeorgiasportsman (Oct 3, 2017)

Hunting 4 Him said:


> This post makes my head hurt



It's no wonder the US ranks so far down the list in math scores.


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## Shep23 (Oct 3, 2017)

Good stuff


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## across the river (Oct 3, 2017)

j_seph said:


> Wrong!




It is simple math.  If you are going horizontally at 300 feet per second, you will travel 90 feet horizontally in in .3 seconds.  Gravity has no impact on the horizontal speed, only the vertical speed. We could get into the drag and the drag coefficient. However, you all don't understand the basics, so we will assume drag in negligible.


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## Jonboater (Oct 3, 2017)

I need a beer now .


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## Kris87 (Oct 3, 2017)

Shoot an arrow at 3 feet and then 60 feet through the chrono and tell me how much speed it lost....it's a lot...I've done it.  So no...it's not 300fps for 30 yds.  Far from it...


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## northgeorgiasportsman (Oct 3, 2017)

across the river said:


> It is simple math.  If you are going horizontally at 300 feet per second, you will travel 90 feet horizontally in in .3 seconds.  Gravity has no impact on the horizontal speed, only the vertical speed. We could get into the drag and the drag coefficient. However, you all don't understand the basics, so we will assume drag in negligible.



An arrow traveling at 300fps begins to slow down the instant it leaves the string.  It won't be traveling at 300fps once it's traveled 90ft.  

But none of this arguing over miniscule numbers matters in the woods.  Leave your calculator in the truck and go kill a deer.


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## whchunter (Oct 3, 2017)

*Great*

Thanks. Wonderful thread. I'm sure glad that problem has been answered..............


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## Tmpr111 (Oct 3, 2017)

Kris87 said:


> You guys are making this way too complicated.  All you have to do is fletch your arrows with a lot of helical, and then you don't have to worry about gravity.
> 
> Look, I sketched it all out for you guys....Real world right here!



This looks like the petunia eating City Giant killed earlier this year.


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## across the river (Oct 3, 2017)

northgeorgiasportsman said:


> An arrow traveling at 300fps begins to slow down the instant it leaves the string.  It won't be traveling at 300fps once it's traveled 90ft.
> 
> But none of this arguing over miniscule numbers matters in the woods.  Leave your calculator in the truck and go kill a deer.



Only due to friction, which I said was negligible. Even if you consider friction in the case of an arrow, it does not slow it down enough to matter.  It might go thirty yards in .31 seconds instead of .3.  That is still.3


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## across the river (Oct 3, 2017)

Kris87 said:


> Shoot an arrow at 3 feet and then 60 feet through the chrono and tell me how much speed it lost....it's a lot...I've done it.  So no...it's not 300fps for 30 yds.  Far from it...



The only way it slows down is due to friction, which I already stated, but I am trying to explain the simple stuff here.  I'm not arguing that friction slows the arrow down, I know it does. However, if you are shooting from the ground or a tree, the coefficient of drag from the air is the same. The arrow doesn't slow down more due to friction, or drop more due to gravity shooting from a tree stand verses the ground.  Therefore it would make no sense to use a 20 yard pin from the tree if you range finder showed 30 yards.   It is still thirty yards to the target, regardless of how far it is from the tree, etc.....   Like i said from the beginning shoot a fast bow and it doesn't really matter.   I've had enough.  This has been like trying to explain to the guys in the waterfowl forum why putting a bunch of styrofoam inside of your duck boat makes the boat sit lower and not higher.


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## Hillbilly stalker (Oct 3, 2017)

WAY TO MUCH INFORMATION. A lot of guys pick the wrong pin half the time. Climb a tree with your bow, shoot at the distances you are questioning about, and you will have your answer. Its a question only you can answer correctly. Then add wildlife.


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## Derek Snider (Oct 4, 2017)

Hillbilly stalker said:


> WAY TO MUCH INFORMATION. A lot of guys pick the wrong pin half the time. Climb a tree with your bow, shoot at the distances you are questioning about, and you will have your answer. Its a question only you can answer correctly. Then add wildlife.



Bingo! This is exactly the what I tried to explain earlier. I can even pretend to comprehend anything that “across the river” has posted and I do profess to understand the basics. Don’t take anyone’s math or word for anything; shoot from the tree and as a result you will learn your equipment better and know what your arrow will do and how much it will do it. Before quitting, put the target or decoy directly under your stand and try and split the shoulder blades or hit the bullseye and I bet money you had better aim low on this shot. At least I do! I will admit that I haven’t bought a range finder  that takes away the angle of the shot and does the math for us. I have a cheap range finder but I do know my bow and i feel confident when I shoot.


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## Totaloutdoorsman (Oct 4, 2017)

across the river said:


> It is simple math.  If you are going horizontally at 300 feet per second, you will travel 90 feet horizontally in in .3 seconds.  Gravity has no impact on the horizontal speed, only the vertical speed. We could get into the drag and the drag coefficient. However, you all don't understand the basics, so we will assume drag in negligible.



You’re still wrong. Please google high angle shooting You can do a bunch of “math” but if it doesn’t apply to the actual argument then it’s pointless. Horizontal distance is still going to be shorter than line of sight distance. Line B is always going to be shorter than Line C. Quit doing “math.”


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## whitetailbass90 (Oct 4, 2017)

Jonboater said:


> I need a beer now .



And you're not the OP... I need about 4 bottles of whiskey now


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## 2bbshot (Oct 4, 2017)

Kris87 said:


> Shoot an arrow at 3 feet and then 60 feet through the chrono and tell me how much speed it lost....it's a lot...I've done it.  So no...it's not 300fps for 30 yds.  Far from it...



This is a fact. They lose speed quickly it if is going 300 FPS at the bow it's not close to that fast a 90 feet. As Wes later said it is losing speed the second it leaves the string. There is no way around it that's just what happens.


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## whchunter (Oct 4, 2017)

*actual distance chart*

http://archeryreport.com/2010/06/uphill-downhill-shots-adjust-proper-arrow-impact/

I think I will use my range finder to see how close this chart is


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## across the river (Oct 4, 2017)

Totaloutdoorsman said:


> You’re still wrong. Please google high angle shooting You can do a bunch of “math” but if it doesn’t apply to the actual argument then it’s pointless. Horizontal distance is still going to be shorter than line of sight distance. Line B is always going to be shorter than Line C. Quit doing “math.”



 This is my last response, I promise.   I agree with you 100 % that line B is shorter that line C.  What that actually means is that gravity is only pulling down on the bullet, arrow, or whatever projectile you are shooting for whatever distance line B is.  I agree with that fact 100%.   If I am shooting a rifle from the top of a mountain at a deer that is 900 yards from me via the rangefinder, but the deer is only 650 yards from the bottom of the mountain I am on (line B), then you are entirely correct, I would not shoot the rifle for a 900 yards shot.  If I did, I would indeed shoot high.   In that situation you would be shooting down at an angle of roughly 45%.  That would be a .72 factor on your ballistic chart table, meaning you are shooting 72% of your range finder distance.   I get it, and I completely agree.  
If you look at the "math" I did on the arrow, I assumed your were 15 feet up a tree shooting a C line distance of 90 feet.   Again, like I said, the angle in that situation would be about 9 degrees.  On your ballistic chart table that would be a correction factor of about .985.  So if you want to make an adjustment on your shot you are so determined to make,  you would therefore use your 29.5 yard pin instead of you 30 yard pin.   

I am not arguing that shooting down hill at a large angle has an impact, I know it does.  What I am trying to explain is that you aren't going to be high enough in a tree stand and shooting down far enough for there to be any impact on what pin you use.  Even if you are up the tree 25 feet and the rangefinder shows 30 yards, you would be making a "corrected" 29 yard shot.   Its the same pin.  It still takes the same amount of time to for the arrow to get there.  You can't read all this stuff on shooting a rifle down a mountain and try to apply it to shooting a bow out of a 15 foot tree stand.  You don't need to "correct" your bow shot, because the factor would be 99% in essentially every situation you would be in anyway.  In short, use the same pin you would from the ground.  I hope that clears it up.  I've read about high angle shooting plenty.  I'm just trying to explain to you that it isn't anything to worry about, unless you are going to be shooting a long distance off of a mountain.


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## hunterofopportunity (Oct 4, 2017)

You can listen to all the advise given but you will not be confident with your tree stand shot until you practice out of a tree stand. Remember to bend at the waist is the best advise.


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## j_seph (Oct 5, 2017)

I have now printed out archery and rifle ballistic charts and placing one in each stand. Gonna have to work on this so I can figure it out fast enough so the deer does not get gone. May need to place some corn to keep em still long enough to do the calculations. Can you only imagine, you do all the calculations, get your bow/rifle up and the dadgum deer done moved 50 yards. Have to start all over again doing the calcs. I will figure em out and be a math whiz and the deer will not have a chance then!


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## kennethc68 (Oct 6, 2017)

Wow, I thought i was pretty good and putting an arrow in the 12 ring from 20 feet in my climber, but not sure i will be able to do it agian after this thread. LOL


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## BowanaLee (Oct 6, 2017)

Geez guys, just get an angle compensating range finder. Its a lot quicker than a calculator or math classes.


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 7, 2017)

I have a rangefinder that allows you to use compensation or not.  
In the mountains where I hunt, I can climb 20 feet up a tree and range the base of a tree with compensation. 35 yards.  Without -39 yards. 
Take that for what it's worth.


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## ProAngler (Oct 15, 2017)

BowanaLee said:


> Geez guys, just get an angle compensating range finder. Its a lot quicker than a calculator or math classes.



Useless for bow hunting. Unless you make .5 to 1.5 yard adjustments.


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## BowanaLee (Oct 15, 2017)

ProAngler said:


> Useless for bow hunting. Unless you make .5 to 1.5 yard adjustments.


 
Your saying they don't work ?


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 16, 2017)

ProAngler said:


> Useless for bow hunting. Unless you make .5 to 1.5 yard adjustments.



Or you bow hunt the mountains...


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## Derek Snider (Oct 16, 2017)

ddd-shooter said:


> I have a rangefinder that allows you to use compensation or not.
> In the mountains where I hunt, I can climb 20 feet up a tree and range the base of a tree with compensation. 35 yards.  Without -39 yards.
> Take that for what it's worth.



That’s enough for me to aim low or risk spine shooting  or shooting over a deer that may drop down when it hears the bow go off. I’ve killed my fair share of deer with a bow. I used to be that guy that sighted in with fixed pins from the ground and went hunting and shot over many deer and spine shot others. I learned through my own mistakes that i personally need to shoot my bow from a stand and for me the difference is significant enough to either change my sights or know to aim low when I’m in the tree. I’ve done both, but now I know my equipment well and my sights are set at ground level and I aim for the heart on most shots. If it happens to be a 40+ yarder (few and far between for me), I’ll even aim below the heart or let’s say “low heart” and I’ve had better results. I suppose I should buy a range finder that compensates, but I have a low profile redfield rangefinder that I’m fond of and it’s hard for me justify spending $ on an upgrade when I’m confident in what I have.


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## ninjaneer (Oct 18, 2017)

What he said!


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## Kris87 (Oct 18, 2017)

I aimed at the heart on a P&Y buck 2 years ago, misjudged the yardage by only 2 yards, and shot under his leg/belly pocket.  I don't hold low any longer.  I've shot under a few deer doing that method so I finally quit.  I just aim for center lungs/shoulder muscle now.


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## 660griz (Oct 18, 2017)

BowanaLee said:


> Geez guys, just get an angle compensating range finder. Its a lot quicker than a calculator or math classes.



Exactly. Works great.


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## switchbackxt1 (Oct 18, 2017)

Do the math!


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Sep 20, 2018)

Wellllll Doggie.


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## Jim Thompson (Sep 22, 2018)

Mr Bya Lungshot said:


> Wellllll Doggie.



yeah, thx


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## CamoDawg85 (Sep 25, 2018)

This is fun. So someone tell me if I’m thinking about this correctly as I barely made it through arithmetic classes.

Assume hunting on flat ground in below example:

1) the distance in yards from the base of tree I’m climbing to the target is exactly 25 yards measured with a standard rangefinder.

2) after climbing 20’ high into same tree, using an angle compensation range finder, the finder says shoot as if the target is at exactly 25 yards, EVEN THOUGH the total distance to the target is now something like 28/30/32 yards?

Is that essentially what the angle compensation range finders are telling you to do?


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## kbuck1 (Sep 26, 2018)

Yes


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## BowanaLee (Sep 26, 2018)

CamoDawg85 said:


> This is fun. So someone tell me if I’m thinking about this correctly as I barely made it through arithmetic classes.
> 
> Assume hunting on flat ground in below example:
> 
> ...


Yes thats correct. But I'll throw something else into the equation. If that deer thinks somethings up and its body language says its about to get the Hades out of town, you better aim low or your going to smack tenderloin. At least using the method above you'll have a starting point to aim low.


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## PSEOutlaw07 (Sep 26, 2018)

Holy crap, so I know this is nothing more than just good ol Pythagorean theorem that we learned in middle school. I understand what the Arc rangefinders are doing and I also know that it doesn't matter much sitting at 20ft up unless you're that high and also sitting on a steep hillside, then maybe a little more
but I'm trying to read "across the river's" explanation
Is he saying that we shouldn't use the horizontal distance from the base of the tree
to the target, and use the line of sight because of how fast our bow is and gravity??


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## PSEOutlaw07 (Sep 26, 2018)

This is what it reminded me of reading Across River explanation of this stuff
pretty funny


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## CamoDawg85 (Sep 27, 2018)

Thanks Bowana and Kbuck


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## whisper8 (Oct 16, 2018)

I'd love to see a hunter with a stand 20 yards up a tree - I'd pay money for that!



Totaloutdoorsman said:


> You only adjust for the horizontal distance. Line of sight will be greater but gravity only affects the arrow/ bullet over the horizontal distance. Think base of the tree to the deer. I measure out all of my ranges before I climb into the stand so I know from the base of the tree what my angle compensated ranges are. Hope this helps.


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## Jason Stringer (Oct 17, 2018)

I failed math. I guess I’m in trouble


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