# Ok, so here's the real Bow Test results...



## Kris87 (Feb 23, 2016)

Ok, I did a lot of testing, shooting, measuring, then a lot of redoing all that.  I'm sure I will leave out a lot, so ask questions about certain topics, or certain bows if you have them.  I will probably write more about new bows for this year, since you can find info about older bows elsewhere.  Also, if you don't like my chrono findings, then do your own test.    I like chrono speeds for comparison purposes, and tuning changes only.  Ok, that's out of the way.  Couple more things...some of the bows I had were personal friends, and they had heavy peeps, etc...I made adjustments for those variables.  Only one bow was not the same DL, made that change.  I had a couple of bows down on poundage, so noted that.  I won't get into draw comparisons too much because of that, only the ones that were same DW.  

So here goes my $.02 on what I had....

Gonna start with the Defiant 30.  Its the bow on the left.




I'm gonna make this short and not sugar coat anything.  I hated this bow.  Been a long time since I hated a Hoyt.  Or really any other bows, but this one I didn't care for at all.  I was very let down on what Hoyt did this year.  Here are the positives...its super quiet, most quiet bow they've ever made.  Its not a barn burner, but not slow.  Has a good BH, a relatively easy draw, no dump into the valley.  I liked the limb stop. It is the firmest back wall Hoyt has ever had.  I'm not 100% sold I shoot them better over terminal cable stops, so the verdict is still out.  I forgot to mention the string angle.  Its legit.  A nice improvement.  It actually has the same string angle as my CS34 at full draw.  I put both in the draw board and measured where the string comes off the cam.  The bad...it has very little letoff in the B slot on the #3 cam at 28.5" DL.  I know this has to be a popular length, and it just sucked.  The cam felt like it didn't rotate to where I wanted it to in the draw curve.  I've shot enough Hoyts to know, and it just fell short.  It really had less valley than my CST ZT from last year which is saying a lot.  I think its ridiculous that you have to have special presses for this bow....Lame!  I do appreciate the limb pocket change they made, they're the best in the business.  And I still love the grip.  Hoyt hands down has the most comfortable, repeatable grip of any company.  I do love that.  I also like the bridged riser, and the offset stabilizer hole.  It really balances the bow...which other companies would offset the front stab hole.   Bottom line, the bow is an underperformer.  There are bows out there now that are faster, just as quiet, just as nice a draw as this one, and have a better valley and letoff.  When that's the case, I just don't see what the draw to this bow would be.  Its just very blah to me...brutal, I know.  Here were the specs for the Defiant.  68.2#, 28.5 DL, 7 1/8" BH, 15# of holding weight, 309fps with 350gr arrow, 279fps with 430gr arrow, 332fps IBO.

Ok...next up is the Xpedition Xcentric 7.  Not sure how I missed taking a pic of this bow, but I did.  I had never had one of these, but really wanted to knowing they were similar to Obsessions but with hybrid cams.  The bow really blew my socks off.  Its a sweet design, very easy to tune as long as you have a draw board.  I basically made one change to the control cable to get the cams starting position right, then I set the bottom limb stop at the desired DL, moved the top stop into position, and it shot a perfect bareshaft bullet hole.  I was like, is that all I have to do?  Dang, that's awesome.  The bow draws very smoothly, but stacks weight at the back of the cycle.  The fit and finish was very good, it was stupid quiet.  The grip is good, very narrow, not much torque that I experienced.  Ok, the bad...and there's only one, but it was big for me.  It DUMPED into the wall.  So bad, its audibly noticeable when the stops hit the limbs.  If you're not paying attention, then the stops literally slam into the limb making noise.  I was very intrigued by this.  It was mostly noticeable when I shot other bows back to back against it.  If I shot it by itself, I could manage it, so maybe it wouldn't be a big deal if its all you shot.  I just know what it did for me.  But all in all, this bow is a shooter.  Its quiet, easy to tune, and fast.  Here were its specs.... 64.8#, 28.0 DL, 6 7/8" BH, 10.8# holding weight, 303fps with 350gr arrow, 276fps with 430gr arrow, 342fps IBO.  

Gonna go grab some dinner and hopefully throw the Obsession M7 up tonight.  Its the bow I spent the most time with.  Some good stuff on it.....standby.


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## The Arrow Guru (Feb 23, 2016)

You can tune the valley and dump at the end if you want.


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## Kris87 (Feb 23, 2016)

The Arrow Guru said:


> You can tune the valley and dump at the end if you want.



I do want to discuss that with you a little later.  I want to discuss it in aspect of changing DL if u change the stops specifically.  I'm a stickler on DL, so I'd like to know what it's capable of.  Don't get me wrong, the bow is sweet.  Just reporting the way I set it up dead nutz at 28".


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## The Arrow Guru (Feb 23, 2016)

Kris87 said:


> I do want to discuss that with you a little later.  I want to discuss it in aspect of changing DL if u change the stops specifically.  I'm a stickler on DL, so I'd like to know what it's capable of.  Don't get me wrong, the bow is sweet.  Just reporting the way I set it up dead nutz at 28".



For sure! I know this doesn't make the drop into let off any different, but you know as well as I do, after 30 days of shooting that bow full time your muscle memory will effect how you draw and it won't be the same. Meaning you will control the back end and not let it slam.


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## Kris87 (Feb 23, 2016)

I won't get off track, but 10# of  hold weight on 64# was nice.  It would be a sweet hunting rig for sure.   I'm eating, and having a beverage, which means I'll be back at the PC soon.


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## frosty20 (Feb 23, 2016)

thanks for the info. the xpedition is on my list to shoot


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## The Arrow Guru (Feb 23, 2016)

As far as the Hoyts, I really thought it would be very hard to beat what they did with the Nitrum series. My Nitrum 34 was pretty awesome. I like the Nitrum riser a lot more than the Defiant


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## Kris87 (Feb 23, 2016)

I'm gonna get to my CS34 later with the Z5 cam.   Possibly the best bow I've ever laid hands on.  I'm almost done eating....


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## Kris87 (Feb 23, 2016)

Ok, I'm back.  I want everyone to know how I got the Ob M7.  I basically asked them to send me a bow to do for the test, with all intentions of sending it back to them.  I promise to you all I don't need handouts, and I wouldn't ever stake my reputation on a biased review.  So they sent me a bow.  Here were there words "We're sending it to you as a writer.  Hunt with it, test it, do whatever you want.  If you don't like it, we'll send you another one.  We know you will be fair".  And those were the words.   I really thought, boy, I'm lucky, they're sending me a bow to test, and I didn't pay a dime.  Lucky me.  But I have to be fair.

Ok, next....


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## Kris87 (Feb 23, 2016)

Ok, so up next is the Obsession Defcon M7.  I've already posted some bullet hole bareshaft shots, my initial impressions, and also a bareshaft shot at distance.  They're easy to find, so go watch them.  

Todd called me and asked what I wanted, I said Kryptek M7.  I had the bow the next day.  Dang, that was fast.  The finish is Kolorfusion, and its the best I've ever seen.  No blemishes anywhere.  




Watch my previous video on how I set the bow up, but the bow literally setup the best I've ever seen in 5 min.  Not going to make you puke any more about my ravings, so go watch it.   I shot the bow a couple days and I noticed my left thumb knuckle was hurting.  The shelf is very wide, and my knuckle was resting under it.  Minor, but a PITA.  I also realized very quickly, that I was nearly able to shoot my same grip as with my Hoyts on this bow.  Knuckles at almost a 45 deg angle, thumb fat pad on the grip.  Sweet, that's how I like to hold a bow.  I did end up wrapping the grip in tennis racket overgrip and putting some 3M pad under the shelf to make it more comfortable.  Here's a pic...



I put this pic in for a reason.  You can see the red impression on my hand where the grip was.  This doesn't happen on my Hoyts, because the wood grip is round, but the squared, riser grip on the OB does.  I note this for you guys so you can watch your hand, and see if its consistent, and repeatable.  My hand had some soreness, but the grip was phenomenal.   If it was bad, the redness would be all over the place.  

Most importantly, how did I shoot this bow?  The DL is .25" too short.  Minor, but I notice it.  I'm really a 28.75" DL.  I could add this easily with a hybrid cam, but I didn't want to mess with this one since it shot so well.  I just made the d loop longer to get my release arm in place.  Next up, the limb stops.....whew...biggie for me.  I love the consistency.  They're a stopping point for vertical misses.  Unfortunately for me, without the give of a cable stop, I had more misses to the left than I was used to.  I will get used to that over time and figure out the firing sequence that works best with these cams.  This is a complicated scenarios....one we can expand on later.  

The bow....its good in every area.  Quiet, fast, easy to draw, letoff was good at my DL 28.5"(we'll discuss that later too), and just held on target well.  For me, the real test is how it will shoot a bareshaft..and here's what it continued to do at 30 yds..



This was very consistent for me, and no matter what grip I tried, I couldn't make the arrow go right.  But don't worry, if you can do this at 30yds, then it will shoot any broadhead on the planet.  Time for a break while I gather my thoughts and answer some texts...lol.


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## Kris87 (Feb 23, 2016)

Ok, back on the M7.  It may be the quietest bow I've shot.  The Phoenix they made, that I also have is right there.  I took the axion dampeners out of the limbs and it did get louder.  I don't like anything under the limbs because I hang the bow on my arm there a lot, but it works, so be it.   This bow does have more vibration at the shot than a carbon Hoyt, but that has to be expected.  You can pay the $600 more if that is the last selling point.  I like the carbon risers, so you have to make your own decisions there.  The bow has very little top cam lean compared to the bows I tuned of their's just a few years ago.  It does have a good bit of bottom cam lean in the draw cycle, but so do most other bows these days.  Its almost like the manufacturers transferred the lean from the top to the bottom where no one looks.  I dunno.  Ok, the bottom line, I love the bow.  If it were a carbon riser, it would be the best bow ever.  But its not, so its still unreal good.  It is shooting bareshafts like lasers.  Its quiet, fast, tuned easy, has a good grip, and not a tank like a Halon(sorry Mathews guys).  Here were its specs...68.2#, 28.5" DL, 6 3/4" BH, 14.2# of holding weight, 315fps with 350gr arrow, 287fps with 430gr arrow, 340fps IBO.


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## Kris87 (Feb 23, 2016)

Since I'm just spewing thoughts with no real organization here, the Defiant 30 had very little vibe too.  It probably shouldn't with the speeds it produced, but I forgot to comment on that in that part of the test.  It was nice.


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## Kris87 (Feb 23, 2016)

Ok, most of the bows I have left are either from '14 or '15, but still relevant.  I'm going to be brief with these.  If you wanna ask a question, then do, I still shot them a lot.

Hoyt CS34.  I'm still torn if this is the best bow I've ever shot.  The M7 is close, but the carbon Hoyt with this #2 cam is really special.  If Hoyt had put a limb stop possibly on this setup, it would have sold like hotcakes.  That said, the bow draws incredibly smooth, makes crazy speed with the # 2 cam, and is a down right killer.  It for sure doesn't have the back wall of the OB, nor the letoff, but its not far in terms of valley.  It draws smooth, rolls over predictably(unlike the Xcentric), and has a softer back wall.  Its not as quiet as the OB, even with the carbon riser, probably due to the limb angle.  Its specs are impressive... 68.2#, 28.5 DL, 6 5/8" BH, 13.5# holding weight, 316fps with 350gr arrow, 286fps with 430gr arrow, 341fps IBO.  More to come....


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## Kris87 (Feb 23, 2016)

Ok, next up I'm gonna throw an Obsession back in the mix, and its last year's Delta 6.  This bow is a barn burner, and it made stupid speed.  This is a draw specific cam, and it was set on my DL of 28.5".  Sweet!  I did notice, probably due to the short ATA, that the bow really stacked weight at the back of the draw cycle.  I didn't hate it, but I did notice it.  This was my cousin's bow, and he's a pretty stout fella, so he probably never notices it, even when its 20deg.   That said, I did notice it, but once back, the bow held like all the other Obsessions.  It def didn't hold like a 28" ATA bow.  It would make a great treestand bow, or back country bow.  If you want specifics ask, but it was a solid offering.  Here were its specs....67.8#, 28.5DL, 5 13/16" BH, 13.4# holding weight, 325fps with 350gr arrow, 294fps with 430gr arrow, 351fps IBO.  

If you wanna know more about this bow, then click here when I tested it against my CST ZT last year.  http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=848655&highlight=


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## Kris87 (Feb 23, 2016)

I've probably been shooting the best I've ever shot because I'm shooting so many different bows and really focusing on my execution.  You guys know how this goes...I really start falling in love with the OB M7, and then I shoot this with my CS34 from 40 yds...no fluff here. 





That probably won't be repeated.  I'm not one of those guys on AT that says that's my normal group.


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## Kris87 (Feb 23, 2016)

I have a couple more bows on the test, but before I write about them, I wanna write about whats on the brain.  

What I like about all the bows....do I like the limb stops?  Not as much as cable stops.  I like some give in the back wall, as it helps me with shot execution.  Do I like the way it feels?  Yes.  But I've for sure figured out that I do have more left/right misses, mostly left, from shooting the limb stops.  It does help with vertical misses, unless you're really punching the trigger.  So there.  Figure out what you like.

Do I like the two track cam?  If anyone goes back and reads some of my posts from a couple years ago, then you'd know I'd be eating pie.  I do like them for the most part.  They are simple, easy to setup.  If you have a tuning issue, its really not that hard to correct it.  Hybrid cams are basically the same, other than you might make the change faster.  When tuning, all you're really doing is making the string path more in line with the rest and the arrow to have cleaner arrow flight.  Just different ways to accomplish it.  Pick your poison.

Is carbon warmer than aluminum?  Yes.  End of story.  But you gotta pay to play.

If Dennis Lewis called me, and said, Kris, what should we do to our bows to make them even better?  I'd say...Dennis, can you offset the stabilizer hole to at least offset the sight weight?  That is a nice feature.  Can you make a wood grip with the same angle as your riser to make it more comfortable?  I bet its doable.  Even if you lose 1/4" of BH.  Do it.  And that's it.  These bows are very good.  I'm sure they'll continue to improve on more important things than those.    More later.


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## BlackEagle (Feb 23, 2016)

Not that it's super important but here's a picture of the Xcentric mentioned above. I love this bow!


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## Kris87 (Feb 24, 2016)

I still have the CST ZT, the CS30, and the Phoenix that I shot.  I don't have the specs in front of me, but I'll put those up tonight.  I like all 3 of these bows, but for different reasons. 

I have talked about how bows can feel differently depending on which cam and which DL they are shot at.  With so many DL's, its really not possible for all bows to feel the same across a DL range.  For instance, I like shooting Hoyt cams on the back side of the range.  On my CS34, its a #2 cam in the D slot.  This lets the cam rotate more, its more efficient, and has more letoff.  I've setup a lot of #3 cam Hoyts in the A slot, and I just don't like it.  I get asked a lot of which bow I recommend, and the first question I always ask is "what is your DL"?  Some may remember how much I liked my Turbo last year with the #3 cam.  I hated that bow with the #2 cam.  They felt completely different.  

I'm finding similar results with the Obsession.  I know Derik has commented that he recommends certain bows over others depending on DL.  I'm not familiar enough yet with all their bows to know those sweet spots.  All the OB guys have been telling me that this M7 at 28.5" has the least letoff of the range on this bow.  That might be why I like it, its actually very similar in feel to a Hoyt.  It doesn't just lock in, and give you that feeling you need to push it forward to let down.  As a result, it lets down super easy, maybe with a little higher hold weight.  I don't mind it at 28.5" at all.  Its a good compromise for what I'm used to.  I hope this makes sense.


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## Bow Only (Feb 24, 2016)

I believe Hoyt has the patent on the offset stabilizer hole.


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## davidhelmly (Feb 25, 2016)

Kris, great test and review of the bows and thank you for all the time and work you have invested in this test!!


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## Kris87 (Feb 25, 2016)

I still have to put up the specs for the last couple of bows.

I get a lot of pm's everyday about bow suggestions and tuning help.  I just wanna say thanks.  I really enjoy doing this and it's never a burden for me to answer anything.  I really love tuning, testing, helping, as much as anything.  It's a real treat for me to be able to help you guys.  Seriously.


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## BowChilling (Feb 25, 2016)

Kris87 said:


> I still have to put up the specs for the last couple of bows.
> 
> I get a lot of pm's everyday about bow suggestions and tuning help.  I just wanna say thanks.  I really enjoy doing this and it's never a burden for me to answer anything.  I really love tuning, testing, helping, as much as anything.  It's a real treat for me to be able to help you guys.  Seriously.



Kris in all seriousness this is awesome for you to take your time to spend doing these comparisons and also always willing to help with anybody's questions. This sight really needs someone like you!


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## alligood729 (Feb 25, 2016)

I'll have to bring mine over when I bring the sight. Maybe we can play with it some....


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## fountain (Feb 26, 2016)

Kris87 said:


> I still have to put up the specs for the last couple of bows.
> 
> I get a lot of pm's everyday about bow suggestions and tuning help.  I just wanna say thanks.  I really enjoy doing this and it's never a burden for me to answer anything.  I really love tuning, testing, helping, as much as anything.  It's a real treat for me to be able to help you guys.  Seriously.



ooooooooo really......

i'll text ya later  ..lol


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## Kris87 (Feb 27, 2016)

Ok, been meaning to put the last couple of bows up. 

First up is my '15 Carbon Spyder Turbo ZT.  Been shooting this bow about a year, and I've loved it.  This type of bow isn't for every shooter, you should always shoot a speed bow before you buy it.  That said, it has one of the smoothest draws of any bow in the test.  Speed has to come from somewhere, and on this bow it comes from a short valley.  I don't have any problem with it at all.  It doesn't want to rip me forward, and the bow lets down super easy.  It could be because I'm shooting it on lower poundage than my others, but because of the speed, it allows for that.  The bow has a typical Hoyt back wall, not rock firm, but firmer than others because there seems to be a good load on the cables on this bow...that firms it up.  All in all, I'd recommend this bow for someone that has no issue pulling through the shot.  I think its a killer hunting bow at lower poundage.  Its quiet, light, no hand shock, and a barn burner.  If you're thinking about dropping down in weight, then a bow like this is capable of producing good speeds even when shot in the 55-60# range.  My specs were 64#, 28.5" DL, 350gr arrow 318fps, 430gr arrow 288fps, 6" BH, 14.2# hold weight....353fps IBO.


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## Kris87 (Feb 27, 2016)

Next up is a CS30.  I've only had this bow about a month, and wanted to see if I'd like it setup as a blind bow.   Because of its short ATA, I thought I would set it up with a light sight, very little stabilizer setup, and keep the weight down.  I thought I wouldn't be shooting this bow at long range.  The thing that has impressed me the most about this bow is how well it holds on target for such a small, lightweight bow.  It reminds me of a polished Carbon Element, which I loved.  It just holds well.  The string angle is steep at 28.5" but it didn't bother me any.  I set the peep the way I always do and had no problem with it.  The bow is quiet, obviously light, and produces decent speed.  I could see this being a super backcountry bow, or a good one if you have a long ways to hike in.  All in all, its a solid performer, but probably not worth its price tag new.  As a used bow in the $7-800 range, its worth it.  That said, I probably won't keep this bow and will opt for an Obsession that I can setup the same way with a little more speed, and less hold weight for the blind.  My specs were 68.2#, 28.5" DL, 316fps 350gr arrow, 283fps 430gr arrow, 6 7/8" BH, 11.6# hold weight...335fps IBO.


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## Kris87 (Feb 27, 2016)

I will add about the CS30, as you can see by the hold weight, its has very good letoff, and a rather long valley.  Its what I call a comfortable valley.  It allows some play at full hold, and isn't going to rip your arm off ever.  It is very nice in that aspect.  I think the Z5 cam was/is the best cam Hoyt has made in the last 10 years.


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## Kris87 (Feb 27, 2016)

OK, the last bow I had to test was a 2014 Obsession Phoenix.  There's been a lot written about this bow, I think I actually did a write up about this same bow somewhere on here when I first messed with it.  Its here somewhere.  Anyway, if you're looking for a decent used bow, then this bow is pretty special.  It does lots of things well.  Its crazy smooth to draw, quiet, has a rock solid backwall, has a great valley/letoff, and produces decent speeds.  For an all around hunting bow, its a good one.  This cam still has the limb stops on the cams, rather than the modules like the newer Obsession cams, and IMO, you can get more valley from it.  This one wasn't set at max letoff, and I liked it the way it was set.  It holds on target as well as anything I've shot.  I really don't have anything bad to say about it.  I do think the newer bows are better performers with all the same characteristics of this bow, so you'll have to decide if the new price tag is worth your money.  It probably is for me.  Its specs were 62.4#, 28.5" DL, 298fps with 350gr arrow, 271fps with 430gr arrow, 7" BH, 12# hold weight...336fps IBO.


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## C Cape (Mar 1, 2016)

Nice reviews Kris...Keep up the good work!


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## Kris87 (Mar 21, 2016)

Just wanted to give everyone an update on my M7 impression.  As I wrote earlier, the bow was .25" short for me on the DL.  I've been trying to figure out how I wanted to gain the extra DL.  Twist up the cables/untwist the string with the 28.5" mods, or slap some 29" on there and short the stops a little.  Well, I went with the mod change.  It was easy to do it this way, and the bow still has about the same letoff/feel as the 28.5" mods with the stops set at max letoff.  Its pretty close in terms of feel.  I did put the 29" mods at full letoff, and the bow definitely feels better at 29" than it does at 28.5".  I believe we discussed that earlier.  

For weeks now, I've only shot this bow and my CS34.  I can give some updates on how I feel there too.  I do think the M7 is the quietest bow I've shot.  Its definitely quieter than the carbon Hoyt.  It has almost no vibration.  If I shoot the M7, then shoot the CS34 right behind it, the Hoyt almost feels junky.  Its not nearly as crisp at the shot.  I do like the draw more on the CS34.  The M7 draws smooth, but it stacks weight right before the cams rollover and the 34 doesn't as much.  I'm still shooting the CS34 more accurately too.  That alone is giving me a hard time putting it down.  Its not as quiet, not as crisp, but man it just shoots where I want it to.  It feels more like a target bow to me I guess.  Also, I fatigue faster with the M7, and I think that's because of pulling hard into limb stops compared to the cable stops.  Its just a different stress on the arms and back after shooting a lot.   

More later.  I may try custom cable/string lengths on it and move it back to the 28.5" mods.  Not sure yet.  Thanks to Pasinthrough for sending me some mods.  I'll send a set back when I figure out what I want to do.


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## Cole Henry (Mar 24, 2016)

Good stuff kris thanks.


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## Brewskis (Aug 16, 2016)

Just now re-reading this. Call me slow, Kris, for just now saying thanks for this thorough bow test. Call me even slower, but I couldn't tell which one you ended up liking most. 

Which one is getting the nod opening day? M7 or CS34?


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## Kris87 (Aug 16, 2016)

Brewskis said:


> Just now re-reading this. Call me slow, Kris, for just now saying thanks for this thorough bow test. Call me even slower, but I couldn't tell which one you ended up liking most.
> 
> Which one is getting the nod opening day? M7 or CS34?



I haven't decided yet.  I'll probably alternate them a good bit.  I still like things about each over the other and so on.  For normal hunting distances, I really like the M7.  But I shoot the Hoyt better at longer range.  They're both very nice bows, and I have them tuned well, so neither is a bad choice.


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## 10 Ringer (Aug 16, 2016)

Kris, have you shot an Elite Impulse? Opinions?


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## uturn (Aug 17, 2016)

Another Tip of the Hat to ya Kris!

I really enjoy your post and videos...they are all well done!!

Thanks for your efforts and for sharing!


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## oppthepop (Aug 17, 2016)

Absolutely superb information. Thank you for taking the time to do this. For me, the Obsession bows are simply incredible. Thanks again Kris.


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## chill15 (Aug 18, 2016)

The Mathews No Cam is still the best I've ever shot. The Halon is a close second. Both are the easiest tuning bows I've ever shot as well. Bullet holes on both right off the rip.


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