# Why has Christianity lasted so long?



## jmharris23 (Apr 18, 2017)

I've enjoyed the conversation lately. 

I thought I'd get your opinion on something else. 

In other threads there has been several mentions of other dying and rising again myths. 

If Christianity and its story are just a myth like the others....Why do you think Christianity gained so many followers and lasted so long compared to the other "saviors"?


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## 660griz (Apr 18, 2017)

Relatively new.
Christianity was more adaptable.
The Crusades and Inquisition insured a good following.
Plus, the luck of where it started. It could spread. Start on a small island in the Pacific, not so much.


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2017)

1,987 years is not long for a religion.
Judaism has it beat by 2000 years.
Ancestoral worship 100,000 years.
Animism has been practiced for over 300,000 years.


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## jmharris23 (Apr 18, 2017)

bullethead said:


> 1,987 years is not long for a religion.
> Judaism has it beat by 2000 years.
> Ancestoral worship 100,000 years.
> Animism has been practiced for over 300,000 years.



I understand that. I was only making comparisons to other resurrection myths


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## WaltL1 (Apr 18, 2017)

Lots of ingredients to that recipe!
As Griz mentioned - adaptability. Its still adapting to and adopting social changes before your/our eyes. 
Heck it even adapted to and adopted Pagan practices from the very beginning to bring them into the fold.
Money
Power
Fear
Marketing
Timing
Population density
Advances in communication 
Willingness to break its own "rules" in order to adapt.....


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> I've enjoyed the conversation lately.
> 
> I thought I'd get your opinion on something else.
> 
> ...



Wouldn't it stand to reason that as cultures who have worshipped a certain way were forced to change their practices and beliefs as other cultures invaded and overtook them?
And as things have stabilized  (well more than a thousand or so years ago) religions have had a chance to maintain their believers. But we all know that quite a few religious believers would LOVE to make theirs be #1 wordlwide, by whatever means necessary.

But think of this, what percentage of Christians made up the population of the USA prior to 1400bc?  And then in 1600bc? 1800bc? 2000bc?.


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> I understand that. I was only making comparisons to other resurrection myths



It is not just the story that gains believers.  There are many factors that contribute to who, how and why people worship as they do.
In the case of previous Resurrected Savior religions the majority of those cultures were invaded and overtaken by another culture that worshipped differently.

I would wonder more about why EVERYONE did not know about God/Jesus from day one that the species could comprehend rather than tens of thousands of years later.
When thought  of in that light,  it speaks volumes for how traits of past religions were incorporated into other cultures and how the religions morphed into something new yet similar.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 18, 2017)

I think Constantine's conversion made a huge impact.  When you have the backing of the greatest empire of the ancient world, that's definitely gonna help.  Also, for whatever reason, the other "saviors" do not seem to have the same effect on people as Jesus does.  Both Judaism and Islam acknowledge (but do not deify) Him.  Even people who are not fond of Christianity generally admire Jesus.


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## jmharris23 (Apr 18, 2017)

Christians were overtaken at one time and dispersed into different parts of the world but they took their story with them rather than it being snuffed out. 

By the way, I'm not trying to make a point or "prove" anything with this. Just having dialogue


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> I think Constantine's conversion made a huge impact.  When you have the backing of the greatest empire of the ancient world, that's definitely gonna help.  Also, for whatever reason, the other "saviors" do not seem to have the same effect on people as Jesus does.  Both Judaism and Islam acknowledge (but do not deify) Him.  Even people who are not fond of Christianity generally admire Jesus.


Like they do with Ghandi and many other figures of religion, history and fiction.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 18, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Christians were overtaken at one time and dispersed into different parts of the world but they took their story with them rather than it being snuffed out.
> 
> By the way, I'm not trying to make a point or "prove" anything with this. Just having dialogue





> Christians were overtaken at one time and dispersed into different parts of the world but they took their story with them rather than it being snuffed out.


Kind of like the fastest growing religion in the United States.
Now fast forward a 1000 years. History dictates that..........


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Christians were overtaken at one time and dispersed into different parts of the world but they took their story with them rather than it being snuffed out.
> 
> By the way, I'm not trying to make a point or "prove" anything with this. Just having dialogue


Is their history really any different than the followers of any religion?


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## drippin' rock (Apr 18, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Lots of ingredients to that recipe!
> As Griz mentioned - adaptability. Its still adapting to and adopting social changes before your/our eyes.
> Heck it even adapted to and adopted Pagan practices from the very beginning to bring them into the fold.
> Money
> ...



This can't be over stated.  Christianity is morphing right in front of our eyes.  Yes, there are churches that resist this, but it won't last.  Religion has to change or it fades away.  How many churches are more accepting of Homosexuality?  As this lifestyle normalizes into our society, Churches that continue to be strictly biblical will be ostrized.  Is that just or fair?  I don't know.  That's just the way I see it unfolding.


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## drippin' rock (Apr 18, 2017)

bullethead said:


> It is not just the story that gains believers.  There are many factors that contribute to who, how and why people worship as they do.
> In the case of previous Resurrected Savior religions the majority of those cultures were invaded and overtaken by another culture that worshipped differently.
> 
> I would wonder more about why EVERYONE did not know about God/Jesus from day one that the species could comprehend rather than tens of thousands of years later.When thought  of in that light,  it speaks volumes for how traits of past religions were incorporated into other cultures and how the religions morphed into something new yet similar.



Yes.  The contortions one has to go through when confronted with the above highlighted.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 18, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Christians were overtaken at one time and dispersed into different parts of the world but they took their story with them rather than it being snuffed out.
> 
> By the way, I'm not trying to make a point or "prove" anything with this. Just having dialogue



Continuing the dialogue, and Centerpin's line of thought, the Romans took Christianity all over the place. Then the "all over the place" people were really mobile and took it around the world.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 18, 2017)

drippin' rock said:


> This can't be over stated.  Christianity is morphing right in front of our eyes.  Yes, there are churches that resist this, but it won't last.  Religion has to change or it fades away.  How many churches are more accepting of Homosexuality?  As this lifestyle normalizes into our society, Churches that continue to be strictly biblical will be ostrized.  Is that just or fair?  I don't know.  That's just the way I see it unfolding.



All religions morph or change. This makes it even more popular and allows it to grow even more. How many women today would be a Christian if they had to follow the old dress codes of our great grandparents?


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Continuing the dialogue, and Centerpin's line of thought, the Romans took Christianity all over the place. Then the "all over the place" people were really mobile and took it around the world.


They sure did.
They went to far away lands, knocked on doors, sat down with the inhabitants and gave them a pamphlet to read.


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> All religions morph or change. This makes it even more popular and allows it to grow even more. How many women today would be a Christian if they had to follow the old dress codes of our great grandparents?



40,000 DIFFERENT denominations within Christianity. How many are alike?


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## WaltL1 (Apr 18, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> All religions morph or change. This makes it even more popular and allows it to grow even more. How many women today would be a Christian if they had to follow the old dress codes of our great grandparents?


Sounds like business goals.


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## jmharris23 (Apr 18, 2017)

drippin' rock said:


> This can't be over stated.  Christianity is morphing right in front of our eyes.  Yes, there are churches that resist this, but it won't last.  Religion has to change or it fades away.  How many churches are more accepting of Homosexuality?  As this lifestyle normalizes into our society, Churches that continue to be strictly biblical will be ostrized.  Is that just or fair?  I don't know.  That's just the way I see it unfolding.



This is not the first time the church has been ostracized or persecuted, yet it's still here?

 I know you've been in enough SS classes to know that.


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> This is not the first time the church has been ostracized or persecuted, yet it's still here?
> 
> I know you've been in enough SS classes to know that.


Why so many denominations and which have it all correct?


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## jmharris23 (Apr 18, 2017)

bullethead said:


> 40,000 DIFFERENT denominations within Christianity. How many are alike?



The vast majority of them are more alike than they are different


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> The vast majority of them are more alike than they are different



Then why the need to form another denomination?
It's not like within Christianity there are 40.
It's 40THOUSAND!


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## jmharris23 (Apr 18, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Then why the need to form another denomination?
> It's not like within Christianity there are 40.
> It's 40THOUSAND!



Because people..believers and unbelievers alike, have a real hard time agreeing on specifics and not getting stupid.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 18, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Sounds like business goals.



I look at it as the more we progress, we learn more about  the Unity of Christ. We learn to be more spiritual and care less about one wearing flip flops and drinking coffee during the Church service.

If it brings more to hear the message then yes it is a business goal.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 18, 2017)

bullethead said:


> They sure did.
> They went to far away lands, knocked on doors, sat down with the inhabitants and gave them a pamphlet to read.



I had one that wanted to show me a video!


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 18, 2017)

bullethead said:


> 40,000 DIFFERENT denominations within Christianity. How many are alike?



Why do hunting clubs have so many different rules yet they all have the same basic rules? 
Would you say they are more alike than different or more different than alike?


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## bullethead (Apr 19, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Because people..believers and unbelievers alike, have a real hard time agreeing on specifics and not getting stupid.



To me it seems like it is more of a issue of content accuracy and people will tweak and twist and change whatever necessary to fit their own views, beliefs and agendas.


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## bullethead (Apr 19, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I had one that wanted to show me a video!



A Roman soldier?


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## jmharris23 (Apr 19, 2017)

bullethead said:


> To me it seems like it is more of a issue of content accuracy and people will tweak and twist and change whatever necessary to fit their own views, beliefs and agendas.



I don't really agree with your assessment here that it is an issue on content accuracy. Most denominations agree on the basics. They just have different opinions on tertiary issues. 

But yes certainly people tweak and twist words to fit their own views, beliefs, and agendas. 

That happens outside of religion too.


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## bullethead (Apr 19, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> I don't really agree with your assessment here that it is an issue on content accuracy. Most denominations agree on the basics. They just have different opinions on tertiary issues.
> 
> But yes certainly people tweak and twist words to fit their own views, beliefs, and agendas.
> 
> That happens outside of religion too.


Religion is supposed to be people following the word of god (s) who is/are supposed to be infallible and the ultimate truth. There shouldn't need to be any twisting or tweaking unless they find the word to be fallible and untruthful.
Outside of religion the real world is full things that are suspect.


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## NCHillbilly (Apr 19, 2017)

As far as religions go, Christianity is certainly not the oldest in common practice, or anywhere near the longest-lasting in history. Hinduism and Buddhism both predate Christianity and are still going strong. Hinduism in particular has been around at least twice as long as Christianity. Islam is only a few hundred years behind Christianity at the moment. 

Past religions that were practiced for as long or longer time periods than Christianity has currently been around would include Celtic polytheism, The ancient Egyptian religion, Germanic polytheistic religions such as the Norse/Viking religion, Phoenecian/Mediterranean worship of Baal and Dagon, the Greco-Roman religion, various North American tribal religions, etc.

Just because they aren't around today doesn't mean that they didn't have a good run for thousands of years. And some of those, such as Celtic paganism, are making a pretty good comeback today.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 19, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> I don't really agree with your assessment here that it is an issue on content accuracy. Most denominations agree on the basics. They just have different opinions on tertiary issues.
> 
> But yes certainly people tweak and twist words to fit their own views, beliefs, and agendas.
> 
> That happens outside of religion too.


To me it kind of seems like you are trying to put a silk hat on a pig?
Tertiary issues?
Many of them don't even agree on who and how you get the big ticket upstairs.
That's not so "tertiary" .......


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## jmharris23 (Apr 19, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> To me it kind of seems like you are trying to put a silk hat on a pig?
> Tertiary issues?
> Many of them don't even agree on who and how you get the big ticket upstairs.
> That's not so "tertiary" .......



I'm sorry.... you're right. When I was thinking of Christian denominations, I was thinking of those historically considered Christian, so we have a different definition of denominations. I should have said and should add secondary issues as well.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 19, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> It sounds like we probably have a different definition of denominations.


Maybe?
Its possible I may be referring to different Christian beliefs as opposed to the "official" doctrine of their denomination.
Do all denominations agree that only specific people are prechosen for Heaven regardless of whether they believe or not?
Faith vs works?
Once saved always saved?
Correct % amounts of offerings?
etc etc


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## jmharris23 (Apr 19, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Religion is supposed to be people following the word of god (s) who is/are supposed to be infallible and the ultimate truth. There shouldn't need to be any twisting or tweaking unless they find the word to be fallible and untruthful.
> Outside of religion the real world is full things that are suspect.



Even the word of god that we believe says that we will mess it up and get it wrong sometimes. 

But I get what you're saying. If I tried to rebuttal this, I would have to use the bible that you don't believe to give you an answer and I guess that would be a waste of both of our time.


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## jmharris23 (Apr 19, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Maybe?
> Its possible I may be referring to different Christian beliefs as opposed to the "official" doctrine of their denomination.
> Do all denominations agree that only specific people are prechosen for Heaven regardless of whether they believe or not?
> Faith vs works?
> ...



No they do not all agree on all of those issues. But they do agree that Christ lived, died, was buried, and resurrected. They believe that their salvation and eternity are secured through that belief. 

The rest of it is interpretation. But it doesn't change the main message which is the main issue.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 19, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> No they do not all agree on all of those issues. But they do agree that Christ lived, died, was buried, and resurrected. They believe that their salvation and eternity are secured through that belief.
> 
> The rest of it is interpretation. But it doesn't change the main message which is the main issue.





> But they do agree that Christ lived, died, was buried, and resurrected.


Yes


> They believe that their salvation and eternity are secured through that belief


No.
See the differences I sited. If the differences in the beliefs of the denominations didn't (supposedly) matter there would be one denomination. No?
Any chance you are mixing "how it should be" with "how it is"?


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## jmharris23 (Apr 19, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes
> 
> No.
> See the differences I sited. If the differences in the beliefs of the denominations didn't (supposedly) matter there would be one denomination. No?
> Any chance you are mixing "how it should be" with "how it is"?



Sure that's certainly possible.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 19, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> Sure that's certainly possible.





> But they do agree that Christ lived, died, was buried, and resurrected


Its kind of a shame that Christianity/Christians couldn't have just left it at that.
It would have eliminated a lot of our (nonbelievers) rebuttal points on alot of these discussions


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## jmharris23 (Apr 19, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Its kind of a shame that Christianity/Christians couldn't have just left it at that.
> It would have eliminated a lot of our (nonbelievers) rebuttal points on alot of these discussions



I guess. It's still the message of the gospel / bible and that's what you deny. If you deny that, it doesn't really matter what else you deny.


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## ambush80 (Apr 19, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> I guess. It's still the message of the gospel / bible and that's what you deny. If you deny that, it doesn't really matter what else you deny.



I can believe in all the best parts of the Bible and apply them to my life but I don't have to deal with the bad parts.


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## welderguy (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I can believe in all the best parts of the Bible and apply them to my life but I don't have to deal with the bad parts.



Antinomianism?


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## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Antinomianism?




Good word but not exactly.  Do you know the definition?  I had to look it up.  I don't see how it relates to what I said.  Can you explain what you meant?


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## WaltL1 (Apr 20, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> I guess. It's still the message of the gospel / bible and that's what you deny. If you deny that, it doesn't really matter what else you deny.


Sure but wouldn't it be nice if we couldn't continually point out how you don't even agree with each other never mind that you don't agree with us?
It plays a part (albeit a small one) on why we harp on "proving it". Get 10 different answers from 10 different Christians and you tend to throw ALL the answers out and just demand proof.


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## 660griz (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I can believe in all the best parts of the Bible and apply them to my life but I don't have to deal with the bad parts.



That is Christianity and one reason why it has survived. 

Christianity can say morals are obtained from the bible. Yea, if you ignore the bad behavior and just use the stuff that won't get you locked up or beat up.


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## welderguy (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Good word but not exactly.  Do you know the definition?  I had to look it up.  I don't see how it relates to what I said.  Can you explain what you meant?



It was said tongue in cheek.
Actually, you are not antinomian because you reject the doctrine of grace, and pick & choose some of the law to govern your morality.(which is directly opposite of an antinomian)


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## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

660griz said:


> That is Christianity and one reason why it has survived.
> 
> Christianity can say morals are obtained from the bible. Yea, if you ignore the bad behavior and just use the stuff that won't get you locked up or beat up.



Except that I consider the belief in the supernatural as one of the "bad parts".


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## atlashunter (Aug 8, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Sounds like business goals.



As the son of a preacher I can tell you, churches are a business.


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## atlashunter (Aug 8, 2017)

I agree with those who said the Roman Empire. The most successful religions tend to be those that get the backing of the state. It also has an appeal to the poor which constitute the bulk of humanity especially before the industrial revolution. That makes it an easy sell. Then there is the promise of immortality. I think it's tragic that Christianity supplanted the philosophers of antiquity. I find far more wisdom and honesty in the letters of Seneca than in any of the gospels or epistles. But Seneca doesn't make the promises made in the Bible. People want answers even if they aren't truthful. They want hope even if it's false hope. 

I think it also worth pointing out that Christianity has been in a state of decline since it lost state backing. We are seeing that decline accelerate in the west and in Europe especially. I hope most will fill that void with something better and not worse.


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## chainshaw (Aug 8, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Sounds like business goals.



I went to a mega church, this weekend, at the request of my visiting Father-in-law. I used to be very involved in a church (VP of the church council, deacon, etc), but really started seeing a side of religion that I didn't like. Since, I have not really attended church in about 12 years.

My first thought was this place was Marketing 101. Spoon feeding the masses what they wanted to hear, oh and by the way, give us some money (they asked at least 5 times). With the constant background music from the "rock" band and the preacher in his jeans and t-shirt, I couldn't believe the "dumbing down" of Christianity that I was seeing. After that, it will probably be another 12 years, before I go to church again.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 8, 2017)

chainshaw said:


> I went to a mega church, this weekend, at the request of my visiting Father-in-law. I used to be very involved in a church (VP of the church council, deacon, etc), but really started seeing a side of religion that I didn't like. Since, I have not really attended church in about 12 years.
> 
> My first thought was this place was Marketing 101. Spoon feeding the masses what they wanted to hear, oh and by the way, give us some money (they asked at least 5 times). With the constant background music from the "rock" band and the preacher in his jeans and t-shirt, I couldn't believe the "dumbing down" of Christianity that I was seeing. After that, it will probably be another 12 years, before I go to church again.


A somewhat related factual story that REALLY stuck in my head -
As young teenagers our group was what admittedly could be described as rough/hippie looking. Long hair, jeans/tshirts etc. (early 70s) 
However we all believed in God, considered ourselves Christians, attended church, went to Saturday Bible classes etc.
So in the Catholic denomination you could volunteer to "pass the basket" to collect the offerings etc.
So volunteer we did.
Because of our looks (per the members), when we passed the basket, church members started complaining, offerings went down etc.
So I/we started noticing that many of our offers to volunteer were met with "already have enough volunteers this time" etc.
So we finally asked the priests to tell us straight up what the deal was. To the priests credit they were honest with us and told us the real deal.
So this conversation took place in the church with Jesus on the cross hanging everywhere.
So as the priest was explaining the complaints about our long hair etc, I, being the smartbutt of the bunch, pointed to Jesus on the cross and said "you mean the problem is we look like that"?
I will never forget the shades of colors the priests faces turned.

That was the beginning of me thinking "this isn't what its cracked up to be".


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 8, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> As the son of a preacher I can tell you, churches are a business.



The love of money definitely gets in the way of some. Even the most pure-hearted churches still run a business though.


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## ambush80 (Aug 8, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> A somewhat related factual story that REALLY stuck in my head -
> As young teenagers our group was what admittedly could be described as rough/hippie looking. Long hair, jeans/tshirts etc. (early 70s)
> However we all believed in God, considered ourselves Christians, attended church, went to Saturday Bible classes etc.
> So in the Catholic denomination you could volunteer to "pass the basket" to collect the offerings etc.
> ...



LOLs


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## centerpin fan (Aug 8, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> I agree with those who said the Roman Empire. The most successful religions tend to be those that get the backing of the state. It also has an appeal to the poor which constitute the bulk of humanity especially before the industrial revolution. That makes it an easy sell. Then there is the promise of immortality. I think it's tragic that Christianity supplanted the philosophers of antiquity. I find far more wisdom and honesty in the letters of Seneca than in any of the gospels or epistles. But Seneca doesn't make the promises made in the Bible. People want answers even if they aren't truthful. They want hope even if it's false hope.
> 
> I think it also worth pointing out that Christianity has been in a state of decline since it lost state backing. We are seeing that decline accelerate in the west and in Europe especially. I hope most will fill that void with something better and not worse.



I just finished an excellent but depressing book called "The Strange Death of Europe".  The author goes into great detail about what is filling the void.  I don't want to give it away, but it rhymes with "bislam".


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## atlashunter (Aug 8, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> I just finished an excellent but depressing book called "The Strange Death of Europe".  The author goes into great detail about what is filling the void.  I don't want to give it away, but it rhymes with "bislam".



Yeah that's scary.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Aug 8, 2017)

Perhaps the more accurate question shouldn't be of the age of Christianity (post Christ) but instead the worship of Christianity's God, both pre and post- Christ.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 8, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> LOLs


Yeah I cant remember the exact number but that one cost me 50 or 75 Hail Marys'. 

And glad to see you back around, I was wondering where you were at. Everything ok?


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 8, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> I just finished an excellent but depressing book called "The Strange Death of Europe".  The author goes into great detail about what is filling the void.  I don't want to give it away, but it rhymes with "bislam".



Yeah.  Mark Steyn states the same in his book.  Since the death of Christianity in Europe in the late 19th century it has been replaced with Totalitarianism, Socialism, and soon to be Islamism.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 8, 2017)

> SemperFiDawg;10833571
> Yeah.  Mark Steyn states the same in his book.  Since the death of Christianity in Europe in the late 19th century it has been replaced with Totalitarianism, Socialism, and soon to be Islamism.


Maybe you Christians aren't so bad after all


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## atlashunter (Aug 8, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Perhaps the more accurate question shouldn't be of the age of Christianity (post Christ) but instead the worship of Christianity's God, both pre and post- Christ.



The dude evolves.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)


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## ambush80 (Aug 8, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Yeah I cant remember the exact number but that one cost me 50 or 75 Hail Marys'.
> 
> And glad to see you back around, I was wondering where you were at. Everything ok?




I'm good. Thanks for asking.  I've been busy with real things.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 9, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I'm good. Thanks for asking.  I've been busy with real things.


I hate it when that happens


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## oldfella1962 (Aug 14, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Lots of ingredients to that recipe!
> As Griz mentioned - adaptability. Its still adapting to and adopting social changes before your/our eyes.
> Heck it even adapted to and adopted Pagan practices from the very beginning to bring them into the fold.
> Money
> ...



kind of like the US Constitution!  it's adaptability ensures it's longevity. As science & education advances it's followers don't have to feel guilty for not taking events literally - maybe the events are symbolic or metaphoric and they just didn't interpret them correctly in past generations. 

good point though about (whoever posted it) time and place being a lucky break. The Roman Empire was spreading it's influence and technological advancements far and wide - they provided a big umbrella of relative peace and stability under which to set up shop. After a while millions of people would be exposed to it or in many cases forced to adopt it as part of the culture. 

We can see this with Islam in much of Africa right this minute!

If the first Christians had run off to Nepal it would have never expanded much beyond Nepal - they aren't exactly major players on the world stage.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 14, 2017)

oldfella1962 said:


> kind of like the US Constitution!  it's adaptability ensures it's longevity. As science & education advances it's followers don't have to feel guilty for not taking events literally - maybe the events are symbolic or metaphoric and they just didn't interpret them correctly in past generations.
> 
> good point though about (whoever posted it) time and place being a lucky break. The Roman Empire was spreading it's influence and technological advancements far and wide - they provided a big umbrella of relative peace and stability under which to set up shop. After a while millions of people would be exposed to it or in many cases forced to adopt it as part of the culture.
> 
> ...





> it's adaptability ensures it's longevity


That is probably its greatest strength and its greatest weakness.
The more it adapts, the more diluted it gets, the less it is taken seriously, the Bible becomes the book "our ancestors believed".....
Odds are, Christianity will play a part in our culture for many years in the future.
But it will look very , very different.
It already looks very different from just 50 years ago.


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## oldfella1962 (Aug 15, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> The dude evolves.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)



it looks like El from Megiddo has some "junk in the trunk" the way he is squished into that wooden seat. You'd think he would have at least flown "business class" if he couldn't afford first class.


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## Israel (Aug 16, 2017)

This:


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## 660griz (Aug 16, 2017)

Israel said:


> This:



They are the same.


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## oldfella1962 (Aug 21, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> A somewhat related factual story that REALLY stuck in my head -
> As young teenagers our group was what admittedly could be described as rough/hippie looking. Long hair, jeans/tshirts etc. (early 70s)
> However we all believed in God, considered ourselves Christians, attended church, went to Saturday Bible classes etc.
> So in the Catholic denomination you could volunteer to "pass the basket" to collect the offerings etc.
> ...



still though, allow me to play devil's advocate here:
Jesus had the hair/look that was culturally typical at the time & place he lived/died. If he had shaved his head bald his appearance would be a distraction to his work.
Thus if most of the people in your church leaned toward more "conservative" hair & clothing your appearance could be a negative factor. It's the sad truth - "perception
is reality" when it comes to human psychology.


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## Israel (Aug 22, 2017)

oldfella1962 said:


> still though, allow me to play devil's advocate here:
> Jesus had the hair/look that was culturally typical at the time & place he lived/died. If he had shaved his head bald his appearance would be a distraction to his work.
> Thus if most of the people in your church leaned toward more "conservative" hair & clothing your appearance could be a negative factor. It's the sad truth - "perception
> is reality" when it comes to human psychology.







> A somewhat related factual story that REALLY stuck in my head -
> As young teenagers our group was what admittedly could be described as rough/hippie looking. Long hair, jeans/tshirts etc. (early 70s)
> However we all believed in God, considered ourselves Christians, attended church, went to Saturday Bible classes etc.
> So in the Catholic denomination you could volunteer to "pass the basket" to collect the offerings etc.
> ...



Yes. Religion is not at all what it is cracked up to be.
And yes, in that (and some other) traditions "saying prayers" is made a form of penance. Something you have rightly argued is that with which someone "pays".



> Yeah I cant remember the exact number but that one cost me 50 or 75 Hail Marys'.



The jungle doesn't give up its entangled easily.

To present, as it were, "heavenly communication" (prayer) as a form of payment to extort from God what is freely given is a great charade. If a thing can adequately place "relationship to God" as burden, and not liberty in the mind and heart, it has succeeded to the full measure it is allowed.
Now, go past its full measure. You already have all you need to pierce the shell.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 22, 2017)

oldfella1962 said:


> still though, allow me to play devil's advocate here:
> Jesus had the hair/look that was culturally typical at the time & place he lived/died. If he had shaved his head bald his appearance would be a distraction to his work.
> Thus if most of the people in your church leaned toward more "conservative" hair & clothing your appearance could be a negative factor. It's the sad truth - "perception
> is reality" when it comes to human psychology.


Absolutely. I was pretty clear we were shady looking teenagers. 
I was a believer. I was in a church. Supposedly in the presence of God.
I expected more than "perception was reality".
Lesson learned.


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## oldfella1962 (Aug 22, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Absolutely. I was pretty clear we were shady looking teenagers.
> I was a believer. I was in a church. Supposedly in the presence of God.
> I expected more than "perception was reality".
> Lesson learned.



I get what you are saying, and it is a disappointing lesson in human nature & prejudice.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Aug 22, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Absolutely. I was pretty clear we were shady looking teenagers.
> I was a believer. I was in a church. Supposedly in the presence of God.
> I expected more than "perception was reality".
> Lesson learned.



If the only time you considered yourself to be in the presence of God was when you were in church, that might be a clue there.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 22, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> If the only time you considered yourself to be in the presence of God was when you were in church, that might be a clue there.


A clue of what?
Oh I know, it was ME that that didn't believe correctly.
Typical.


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## bullethead (Aug 22, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> If the only time you considered yourself to be in the presence of God was when you were in church, that might be a clue there.



God works in ways that is beyond your understanding.


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## Israel (Aug 23, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> A clue of what?
> Oh I know, it was ME that that didn't believe correctly.
> Typical.




Walt, to be fair, or just, you could consider that.
Is not the basis upon which the claims of those calling themselves believers/christians/disciples of Jesus Christ are so often dismissed here is through a failure to present a perceptible universality of experience? It is not in the presentation of a "too small god" too narrowly "doled out" for experience?

How many times has it been said "a god" so small as to communicate his thoughts and intents to some, or any particular man...is viewed as offense? Am I wrong in believing I hear, in some fashion "the god presented (as perceived by the agnostic of the "christian")  is way too small to suffice...?

It is a not unusual discussion found on almost every page..."how could you, a man...be so deceived as to believe you could have any knowledge of _a god_?"
In some quite funny ways the agnostic (perhaps even borderline atheist) is saying "The only God I could accept would have to be greater than any man could relate in order to suffice to _my_ understanding". No less funny is the endeavor to therefore reduce God to the understanding (and of this believers are sometimes complicit). 

You are free to think you are the only one who has seen through the gauzy shroud of religion and even be as convinced as needful that because religion parades the word "Jesus" that to see "all of the false foundation of  man's religion" is to see falseness in every aspect of that name/word. And I can easily confess it is beyond any and all of my own merest capabilities to rightly be able to delineate for any other between the person of Jesus Christ, and what makes claims of his exclusive representation. I could not delineate and separate it for myself...it had to be done for me.

Do not think I have not had for a time a sort of fellowship amongst those (and I am easily convinced as I meet them on here, as have so many other brothers) who claim "this is the house of Gawd..." 

Probably, like me (and I would even dare say...you) in our search for the truth of Jesus Christ we have found many willing to "shepherd" us but only to the limits of their own experience (as always)...and some have also seen this is a bit less savory when in seeking to claim the knowledge of the ineffable...they have allowed their understanding reduced and constrained by the most temporal of things...bricks/mortar/timber and nails...with a sign outside declaring _this thing_...the church. This...is the house of Gawd!

In fact the _universality_ of the "religious" experience is almost all too plain...the trying to make a specific time and/or place programmable and identifiable
as only Jesus could pierce it rightly, in word and indeed.


"No longer on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem..." as for "the time"...to be in communion with the Almighty...it is always and only found...now, in spirit and truth.

Yes. To those who would claim it is on "their corner" at their "appointed time" God is found and worshipped, I (and I am also convinced many others) must appear as heretic, unbeliever, renegade to the faith.

The point being...if I lie "here" to you, deal with you falsely, it is of no less consequence than if I stand on a most elaborate carved altar with angels and somber faced ushers and pastors at the height of "their assembly" (in whatever building) and declare something of known (to me) untruth...anymore than it would be of "more consequence" there. Even in the civil proceedings  when one is told to "place their hand on the Bible" as though the touching of a perceived sacred _thing_ purifies one, or serves to further "condemn one" if found a perjurer. Yes, religion is a strong presence.

I cannot escape Jesus Christ at any moment or in any place, nor can I make him "more present" at any moment or in any place. The way He has made this particularly known to me is that at any moment...at any time and place...I may be shown a liar. My most sincerely perceived confessions...and my own most casual and offhanded comments or deeds are all up for the weighing, and weighed they are...always...and everywhere.

Do I want to be _shown a liar_? Who does? But...do I need it? Do I merit it? I think all of creation is in consensus on that one. And so a peculiar balance is presented... would I suffer the destruction of all to keep my own 'integrity of lie'...or 'allow' creation its continuance? Yes, I always "opt for myself".

What a curious gift repentance is. It is all a liar cannot expect...light.


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