# The "Faith Alone" verse...  where?



## FritzMichaels

I always hear the 'faith alone' preached over and over. Maybe yall can point that verse out to me.

The only time I can find "faith" and "alone" together in one verse... It reads....

(James 2:17)  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


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## vanguard1

that is the only place i know of too.


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## FritzMichaels

vanguard1 said:


> that is the only place i know of too.



V1,
I will never undertand why pastors are so afraid of "works". No, we are not saved by 'works' as the bible tells us this, BUT, it is quite clear that if works do not accompany 'faith', than our faith is not a saving faith, but a dead faith. Works are the only thing we take to heaven, but pastors won't touch 'works' with a 10 ft pole.


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## rjcruiser

Eph 2:8-9

 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 

 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast


So the question is....are we saved by faith alone or not?


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## FritzMichaels

No. Jesus said repent or perish. No repentance, no salvation. So no, you are not saved by faith alone. We cannot stay worldly heathens after having 'faith' or saying the little 10 second sinner's prayer and be saved. Saving faith happens because of belief and repentance. The evidence of salvation or "saving faith" (hearing the Gospel, belief, godly sorrow, repentance and then conversion) will be good works, spiritual fruit, filling of the holy spirit, hatred of sin, obedience to Christ.  Thats what i gather from the bible, anywho.


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## vanguard1

FritzMichaels said:


> V1,
> I will never undertand why pastors are so afraid of "works". No, we are not saved by 'works' as the bible tells us this, BUT, it is quite clear that if works do not accompany 'faith', than our faith is not a saving faith, but a dead faith. Works are the only thing we take to heaven, but pastors won't touch 'works' with a 10 ft pole.



AMEN BROTHER,  as someone once said " we are not saved by works, we are saved for works "


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## FritzMichaels

vanguard1 said:


> AMEN BROTHER,  as someone once said " we are not saved by works, we are saved for works "




(Ephesians 2:10)    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


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## vanguard1

Matthew 16:27 (King James Version)

 27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


John 14:12 (King James Version)

 12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


Matthew 5:16 (King James Version)

 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


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## FritzMichaels

(Romans 2:6)  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

(2 Corinthians 5:10)  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

(1 Corinthians 3:8)   Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

(Revelation 22:12)   And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

(Revelation 2:23)   ...and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.


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## jmharris23

I get what you are saying and on the whole I agree that a faith without works is no faith at all. As a pastor I preach this all the time. Jesus was very clear as to the fact that there will be fruit, if you are part of the vine. 

As for faith alone, well that mostly comes from here(but I think you already know this):

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ro 4:2–6). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.


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## rjcruiser

As a person who believes in a work"less" salvation...let me describe my thoughts based on scripture.

Faith leads to Repentance.  Repentance leads to obedience.

Where is the salvation point in that equation?  I believe it is right in the middle.  Faith and Repentance are near simultaneous in occurance in my mind.  Obedience takes longer to implement.  An old dog doesn't learn a new trick right away.

Prime example is the thief on the cross.  He had faith, repented and believed.  He had no works....no baptism....nothing other than his faith.

Was he saved?



Now...let me add that as Paul says in Romans...should we go on sinning so that grace abounds?  Of course not.  For if this is the case, we are not truly saved.


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## centerpin fan

jmharris23 said:


> As for faith alone, well that mostly comes from here ...



I would say that it mostly comes from Martin Luther.  

He added the "alone" to Romans 3:28 because, as he said himself, "Dr. Martin Luther will have it so ..."


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## rjcruiser

centerpin fan said:


> I would say that it mostly comes from Martin Luther.
> 
> He added the "alone" to Romans 3:28 because, as he said himself, "Dr. Martin Luther will have it so ..."



  I was waiting for a Catholic to come along and say that.


Funny...when I look in my Bible, I don't see the word "Alone" in that verse.  I even looked at other English translations and it isn't there.

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. (NAS)

It definitely implies that it is Faith Alone...but it doesn't say that.  Wonder what version Luther added that to?


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## FritzMichaels

rjcruiser said:


> As a person who believes in a work"less" salvation...let me describe my thoughts based on scripture.
> 
> Faith leads to Repentance.  Repentance leads to obedience.
> 
> Where is the salvation point in that equation?  I believe it is right in the middle.  Faith and Repentance are near simultaneous in occurance in my mind.  Obedience takes longer to implement.  An old dog doesn't learn a new trick right away.
> 
> Prime example is the thief on the cross.  He had faith, repented and believed.  He had no works....no baptism....nothing other than his faith.
> 
> Was he saved?
> 
> 
> 
> Now...let me add that as Paul says in Romans...should we go on sinning so that grace abounds?  Of course not.  For if this is the case, we are not truly saved.



We are on the same page, i think. Here is my take (not that its right, its just my take) on salvation and works.

Salvation:
hear the Gospel
understand that we're a sinner in need of a Saviour
have godly sorrow for our sins
believe the Gospel
cry out to God for salvation (not a sinners prayer)
put our faith in Christ that he died for our sins and redeems us through his blood

Conversion will now take place:
God bestows his grace on us (saved by grace)
we're justified
we're converted
we receive the holy spirit

Evidence of true salvation:
we hate our sins
we love the word of God
we fellowship with other believers
we have good works
we become more and more sanctified
we part from the ways of the world
we're obedient to Christ
we grow in love and charity and hope
we try to crucify the flesh and walk in the spirit
and we condemn others for drinking... and we no longer curse
our ex-wives...


sorry, i was kidding on the last 2...


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## centerpin fan

rjcruiser said:


> Wonder what version Luther added that to?



His German version of 1522.

And I'm not Catholic.


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## FritzMichaels

centerpin fan said:


> I would say that it mostly comes from Martin Luther.
> 
> He added the "alone" to Romans 3:28 because, as he said himself, "Dr. Martin Luther will have it so ..."



I agree CPF. "Faith alone" is a luther and calvin thing. No wonder why we cant find it in the bible....  its not even in Luther's own bible


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## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> I agree CPF. "Faith alone" is a luther and calvin thing. No wonder why we cant find it in the bible....  its not even in Luther's own bible



Define justification for me.


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## johnnylightnin

johnnylightnin said:


> Define justification for me.



Well...no takers?  

How about I offer one and see if it rubs you the right way or the wrong way.

Justification: An instantaneous legal act of God in which he (1) thinks of our sins as forgiven and Christ's righteousness as belonging to us, and (2) declares us to be righteous in his sight. (Wayne Grudem's _Systematic Theology_, page 723).


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## FritzMichaels

Sorry, I was working. To me 'justification' is when a persons sins are not on his account anymore but on Christ's account. That could be whenever the person repents, believes and receives the holy spirit, imo.


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## vanguard1

justification =just as if i never sinned at all


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## hummerpoo

I guess my question is, to whom are you showing this evidence of salvation?


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## FritzMichaels

(Mat 5:16)   Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


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## Lowjack

rjcruiser said:


> Eph 2:8-9
> 
> 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
> 
> 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast
> 
> 
> So the question is....are we saved by faith alone or not?



Uhum ! You forgot verse 10 ?


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## hummerpoo

OK I admit it, I was fishing.

The way I see it, works are not evidence of salvation; works are evidence of God.

Since Eph. 2:10 was mentioned above I'll use it as an example.  "For we are His workmanship _(God created us)_, created in Christ Jesus _(and God saved us)_ for good works _(so that we could do His work)_, which God prepared beforehand _(according to His plan)_ so that we would walk in them _(thus accomplishing His work through us)_."

It is God's work and it is God's glory that show's through the good works which are performed by His people.  Note vs 9 "so that no one may boast.

God seems to have always worked for that same purpose. "Then they will know that I am the LORD God" Eze. 28:24.  He says that almost 50 times in the book of Ezekiel.  For example: 36:23 "I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst.  Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight."  He then explains how He will do that by cleansing and renewing them in spite of their great sinfulness.


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## hummerpoo

Sorry Fritz and LJ.  I was typing while you were posting.  I type VEEERRRY slowly.

Fritz, you can see that I agree with Mat. 5:16.

LJ, hope you can tell what I mean to say on vs. 10.


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## FritzMichaels

Lowjack said:


> Uhum ! You forgot verse 10 ?



twisting scripture is whole lot more effective when a person leaves out the verses that prove him wrong.


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## 1gr8bldr

John 6 28+29,"they asked, What must we do to do the works God requires? Jesus answered, The work of God is this; to believe in the one he has sent."


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## rjcruiser

Lowjack said:


> Uhum ! You forgot verse 10 ?





FritzMichaels said:


> twisting scripture is whole lot more effective when a person leaves out the verses that prove him wrong.



How does vs 10 change the meaning?  Just goes on to say that every good work that we do is not of ourselves, but because of Christ Jesus.


 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 

 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 

 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


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## rjcruiser

centerpin fan said:


> His German version of 1522.
> 
> And I'm not Catholic.



Centerpin...my apologies...didn't mean to lump you in to a bucket that you aren't a part of.

As far as Luther's translation....yes, his German text emphasizes what that verse is saying.  Keeping that word in there or not in there does not change the meaning.  That is why in English, it isn't there.  But in the German dialect, it was necessary to convey what the verse in Greek text read.


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## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> Sorry, I was working. To me 'justification' is when a persons sins are not on his account anymore but on Christ's account. That could be whenever the person repents, believes and receives the holy spirit, imo.



So, would you agree with the definition I posted? The two sound similar, but I want to make sure.  I'm not trying to get into a semantic game, just trying to have some clarity with what we're talking about.

Justification by faith alone is a pillar of the protestant church, so if it's in error, that would be greatly important.  Let's make sure, though, that when we talk  about justification, we're talking about the same thing that they are talking about.

What I mean is, from some of the posts I've read, there seems to be a blurring of the line between justification and sanctification.  There also seems to be confusion as to whether or not works that necessarily follow justification are required for justification.

I think for a long time, we've preached faith alone and then tried to hold on to some works righteousness/legalistic ideals.  In the end, justification is greatly misunderstood.


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## johnnylightnin

rjcruiser said:


> As far as Luther's translation....yes, his German text emphasizes what that verse is saying.  Keeping that word in there or not in there does not change the meaning.  That is why in English, it isn't there.  But in the German dialect, it was necessary to convey what the verse in Greek text read.



In any translation, there is at least some interpretation simply because there is a not a one for one relationship between ANY languages.  I think faith alone is a biblically consistent translation of the Greek here (especially when you see that faith and works are the two options...is it faith and works?  No, it's faith alone).


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## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> So, would you agree with the definition I posted? The two sound similar, but I want to make sure.  I'm not trying to get into a semantic game, just trying to have some clarity with what we're talking about.
> 
> Justification by faith alone is a pillar of the protestant church, so if it's in error, that would be greatly important.  Let's make sure, though, that when we talk  about justification, we're talking about the same thing that they are talking about.
> 
> What I mean is, from some of the posts I've read, there seems to be a blurring of the line between justification and sanctification.  There also seems to be confusion as to whether or not works that necessarily follow justification are required for justification.
> 
> I think for a long time, we've preached faith alone and then tried to hold on to some works righteousness/legalistic ideals.  In the end, justification is greatly misunderstood.



I think that we agree on justification. But we disagree on our authority. My authority is the word of god, not protestant teachings. The bible clearly states that faith without works is dead. Do works save? No. When a person has true saving faith there will be works that are evident. So we agree that it is the faith that saves plus the belief of the gospel and repentance. Works come after salvation but prove that the faith, repentance and belief was valid. I still dont agree with 'faith alone' because there has to be repentance along with faith. Repent or perish are pretty clear words from the Saviour. Repentance is a sign of belief, faith and a turning from a sinful life. Repentance is more important than faith. Repentance shows faith, faith does not show repentance.


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## hummerpoo

1gr8bldr said:


> John 6 28+29,"they asked, What must we do to do the works God requires? Jesus answered, The work of God is this; to believe in the one he has sent."



Isn't that a great passage?  I'm sure many great discipleships have been enhanced by working all the way through this one teaching and arriving at vs. 65 "And He was saying. 'For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.' "
But the sad part is vs. 66 "As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore."

But then it gets happy again...
And then sad again...

Whew, what a ride.


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## Lowjack

hummerpoo said:


> Sorry Fritz and LJ.  I was typing while you were posting.  I type VEEERRRY slowly.
> 
> Fritz, you can see that I agree with Mat. 5:16.
> 
> LJ, hope you can tell what I mean to say on vs. 10.



Verse 10 oh Yes the one that most people miss who are looking for easy salvation;
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. 

Guess what this goes alone with Christ teachings, a tree that does not produce food is cut down and burned, he cursed the fig tree that did not have fruit when it was supposed to, doesn't that send a message to the brain ?

If that doesn't then research how the Great Judgment is to be carried, you will be judge according to your deeds , not according to your faith, so faith and works go hand in hand.
It is time to face up the truth of the Word and not this evil teaching of believe in Christ and that's all.

I once went to a Youth meeting and they had a young pastor that said all "you need to do is accept Christ tonight, it doesn't matter what you have done or will do, even if you throw God in a garbage can you are still saved"
I don't have to tell you I blew my top, because even the young people there who were not supposely saved knew there was something wrong with that message.


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## Ronnie T

There seems to always be problems dealing with the "faith/works" issue.

It isn't a matter of having faith, then finding some works to do in order to validate your faith.
The fact is, if you have biblical faith you have what we so often refer to as 'works'.

Faith and works enter the party holding hands.

Most of us don't really understand the word "faith".
"Faith" is a giant of a word.
In the life of a Christian there's no such thing as faith only.
If you only have faith, you don't even have faith.
**************************************

Consider this from Hebrews Chap 11.....

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going

17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac

24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter

31By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace

32And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 
33who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 
34quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 
35Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection; 
36and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. 
37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated 
38(men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. 
39And all these, having gained approval through their faith

Verse 32 thru 39.
by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, became mighty in war, experienced mockings and beatings, chains, imprisonment, were stoned, sawn in two, put to death with the sword, ill-treated............  All of them gained approval through their faith.

*If you think faith is nothing more than dropping to a knee and saying you believe in Jesus, your a sniveling little spineless wonder who only 'thinks' you have accepted Jesus and He has accepted you.

If you are a Christian but don't have works, you're dead.  
Blood flows, but you're dead.

I'm just saying.


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## FritzMichaels

Great stuff here, Ron and Low. Great stuff.


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## Ronnie T

Well Lj, I think we did our writing at the same time.
Ain't that something.


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## hummerpoo

Lowjack said:


> Verse 10 oh Yes the one that most people miss who are looking for easy salvation;
> 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
> 
> Guess what this goes alone with Christ teachings, a tree that does not produce food is cut down and burned, he cursed the fig tree that did not have fruit when it was supposed to, doesn't that send a message to the brain ?
> 
> If that doesn't then research how the Great Judgment is to be carried, you will be judge according to your deeds , not according to your faith, so faith and works go hand in hand.
> It is time to face up the truth of the Word and not this evil teaching of believe in Christ and that's all.
> 
> I once went to a Youth meeting and they had a young pastor that said all "you need to do is accept Christ tonight, it doesn't matter what you have done or will do, even if you throw God in a garbage can you are still saved"
> I don't have to tell you I blew my top, because even the young people there who were not supposely saved knew there was something wrong with that message.



Yes, we are "created in Jesus Christ to do good works" which i think means saved to do good works.  Is that not what I said before or is that not what you are saying here.  If we have disagreed on that point I'm just missing it.

And again I need help.  I recall a tree that was withered as an object lesson to the twelve on the power of faith, the good tree that bears good or bad tree that bears bad fruit in a lesson on false teachers, and the tree that was fertilized and left another year, but I need help on Jesus and a non producing fig tree that was cut and burned having to do with faith and works.

As to the judgement at the great white throne, they all have faith, right?  And none are thrown into the lake of fire, right?  And they all have works to be judged, right?  Yes, faith and works go hand-in-hand and I don't recall having said that one who is called by the Father to faith in Chirst had a "that's all" in his future.  If I did I misspoke because I believe that such a person has a great and exciting life, though not usually easy, of serving the Lord here on earth and an eternity of praise and worship in heaven.

As for the young pastor you talk about, I certainly hope he was enlightened before he did any more harm.

I'm not saying that you and I agree on salvation or on preservation of the believer, I'm just not getting zeroed in on those things from your post.


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## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> *If you think faith is nothing more than dropping to a knee and saying you believe in Jesus, your a sniveling little spineless wonder who only 'thinks' you have accepted Jesus and He has accepted you.
> 
> If you are a Christian but don't have works, you're dead.
> Blood flows, but you're dead.
> 
> I'm just saying.



Man, am I glad that I don't think that faith is nothing more than dropping to a knee.

If I was a betting man I'd give odds that you two guys couldn't get within one minute next time.


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## rjcruiser

hummerpoo said:


> Yes, we are "created in Jesus Christ to do good works" which i think means saved to do good works.  Is that not what I said before or is that not what you are saying here.  If we have disagreed on that point I'm just missing it.
> 
> And again I need help.  I recall a tree that was withered as an object lesson to the twelve on the power of faith, the good tree that bears good or bad tree that bears bad fruit in a lesson on false teachers, and the tree that was fertilized and left another year, but I need help on Jesus and a non producing fig tree that was cut and burned having to do with faith and works.
> 
> As to the judgement at the great white throne, they all have faith, right?  And none are thrown into the lake of fire, right?  And they all have works to be judged, right?  Yes, faith and works go hand-in-hand and I don't recall having said that one who is called by the Father to faith in Chirst had a "that's all" in his future.  If I did I misspoke because I believe that such a person has a great and exciting life, though not usually easy, of serving the Lord here on earth and an eternity of praise and worship in heaven.
> 
> As for the young pastor you talk about, I certainly hope he was enlightened before he did any more harm.
> 
> I'm not saying that you and I agree on salvation or on preservation of the believer, I'm just not getting zeroed in on those things from your post.




Well said.

I think LJ and others have missed the point of Eph 2:8-10.  It isn't to say that works are required for salvation.  No...works are not required...but works follow salvation.


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## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Well said.
> 
> I think LJ and others have missed the point of Eph 2:8-10.  It isn't to say that works are required for salvation.  No...works are not required...but works follow salvation.



I think Lj and I both agree with you.

If you live for Christ, you WILL seek obedience.
You WILL be fruitful.
Your outside will reflect what's living on the inside.

But the most important point is that faith isn't merely believing in Christ, faith is giving yourself to Christ.


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## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> but the most important point is that faith isn't merely believing in Christ, faith is giving yourself to Christ.



I'd agree...and because of that...Faith alone is what is required for salvation


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## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> 1. I think that we agree on justification. But we disagree on our authority. My authority is the word of god, not protestant teachings.
> 
> 2. I still dont agree with 'faith alone' because there has to be repentance along with faith. Repent or perish are pretty clear words from the Saviour. Repentance is a sign of belief, faith and a turning from a sinful life. Repentance is more important than faith. Repentance shows faith, faith does not show repentance.



1. Huh?  Where did I say my authority was protestant teachings?  And, for historical clarity here, Martin Luther, John Calvin, ect. would be the first to tell you that their authority is the Word of God.  Not sure I understand this.

2. I think you are separating faith and repentance unnecessarily.  Biblically, they are seen as one in the same.  The woman caught in adultery had previously had faith in herself and her desires.  She was living the life she wanted.  When she put faith in Christ, she began living the life He wanted for her.  She "went" and sinned no more.

Faith in Christ is repentance (or turning) from sin.  They are one in the same.

Sola Fide!


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## Jeffriesw

*Galatians 2*
Paul Opposes Peter
11But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

*Justified by Faith*
15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 1 8 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousnessb were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.


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## Jeffriesw

Galatians 3
English Standard Version	 
By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
1  O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected bya the flesh? 4 Did you sufferb so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirite through faith.

The Law and the Promise
15 To give a human example, brothers even with a man-made covenant,  no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.


----------



## FritzMichaels

rjcruiser said:


> I'd agree...and because of that...Faith alone is what is required for salvation



Maybe you missed the title of the thread. Please show me the faith alone verse? It doesnt exist. Its too bad people follow martin luther.


----------



## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> 1And, for historical clarity here, Martin Luther, John Calvin, ect. would be the first to tell you that their authority is the Word of God.
> 
> Sola Fide!



Their authority was the word of God??  You mean like when they prayed to Mary and killed people for not baptizing babies?? That does not sound like their authority was the word of God. 

Faith and repentance are not the same... and both are necessary for salvation


----------



## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> Faith and repentance are not the same... and both are necessary for salvation



I'm on my phone, so I can't address everything. I'll just say, make your case. I said that faith in Christ is the same thing as repentence because repentence is turning from faith in anything other than Christ. Show me where I'm mistaken.


----------



## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> I'm on my phone, so I can't address everything. I'll just say, make your case. I said that faith in Christ is the same thing as repentence because repentence is turning from faith in anything other than Christ. Show me where I'm mistaken.



I am guessing that a concordance can probably do a much better job of describing them than I can, but they are different. Now i do believe that you have to have faith to repent. Nobody who does not believe and have faith in Christ is gonna repent from their sins and turn to Christ. So faith is required to ever repent.

I am guessing by your avatar you are a Saints fan. You had 'faith' that they would win their game today but you did not have repentance that they would win their game.

If they were the same you should be able to go thru the bible and interchange the words 'faith' and 'repent' and you cant do that... it would make no sense.


----------



## vanguard1

FritzMichaels said:


> Their authority was the word of God??  You mean like when they prayed to Mary and killed people for not baptizing babies?? That does not sound like their authority was the word of God.
> 
> Faith and repentance are not the same... and both are necessary for salvation



I agree 100% you have to have both. faith without works is DEAD.


----------



## FritzMichaels

vanguard1 said:


> I agree 100% you have to have both. faith without works is DEAD.



Faith without repentance is just as dead...  but dont tell the liberals. They interpret 'faith without works is dead' as 'faith without booze is dead...'  Since 'beer' is not in the bible, its not a sin... ha


----------



## johnnylightnin

I didn't say they were synonyms. They are different sides of the same coin. I hate typing on a phone.

We're talking about justification, not the totality of what is required of Christians. The question is, what justifies men before God. The answer is faith alone in Christ alone.


----------



## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> I didn't say they were synonyms. They are different sides of the same coin. I hate typing on a phone.
> 
> We're talking about justification, not the totality of what is required of Christians. The question is, what justifies men before God. The answer is faith alone in Christ alone.



Jesus said repent or perish. You can say faith alone all you want but the bible does not say faith alone. The ONLY place where faith and alone are used together, it says faith PLUS works or it is a dead faith, "being ALONE"...

I think we would be better off to listen to the bible and what God has to say over martin luther.  faith w/o works is dead. faith w/o repentance is dead.  dead is dead. thats what the bible says and i am sticking to it,.,,


----------



## rjcruiser

FritzMichaels said:


> Jesus said repent or perish. You can say faith alone all you want but the bible does not say faith alone. The ONLY place where faith and alone are used together, it says faith PLUS works or it is a dead faith, "being ALONE"...
> 
> I think we would be better off to listen to the bible and what God has to say over martin luther.  faith w/o works is dead. faith w/o repentance is dead.  dead is dead. thats what the bible says and i am sticking to it,.,,




I think the only people that have quoted Luther are you and Centerpin.  Why are you so infatuated with proving him wrong?  I guess that is another thread though.

Now..back to what the Bible says....It was interesting...heard a message yesterday at Church from Galations 3.  Funny....It was all about Justification by Faith.


Galations 3
11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." 

12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." 

 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"-- 

 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


----------



## FritzMichaels

When the church is bound in error, its good to know where the error came from. In this case the 'faith alone' error came from the reformation. 

I appreciate the verses but those are about the law mostly. My point of all this is just to show using the bible that 'faith alone' is a partial truth but most churches use it today in error. If a person goes to church and relies on the church and its teachings but the church only gives partial truths than that person is being shorted.

If a nonbeliever hears the gospel and joins a 'faith alone' church they will never hear repentance, just grace and faith. There is more to salvation than faith. if that person never repents, Jesus said their faith (alone) wont save them. If they have a faith where there is no fruit or works that are evident, that faith is dead.

You arent considering the whole teaching of the bible on salvation. You faith only people, only hear certain verses instead of all of them. Rightly dividing the word is shunned for a few verses that tickle the ears.

Like the bible says. faith without works is dead. Faith without repentance is dead. Faith alone only exists because people wont believe the bible for what is says. But i dont blame the people. I blame the churches for tickling the ears of their flock.

Again, i'll ask for the verse in the bible that says 'faith alone'??


----------



## Ronnie T

FritzMichaels said:


> When the church is bound in error, its good to know where the error came from. In this case the 'faith alone' error came from the reformation.
> 
> I appreciate the verses but those are about the law mostly. My point of all this is just to show using the bible that 'faith alone' is a partial truth but most churches use it today in error. If a person goes to church and relies on the church and its teachings but the church only gives partial truths than that person is being shorted.
> 
> If a nonbeliever hears the gospel and joins a 'faith alone' church they will never hear repentance, just grace and faith. There is more to salvation than faith. if that person never repents, Jesus said their faith (alone) wont save them. If they have a faith where there is no fruit or works that are evident, that faith is dead.
> 
> You arent considering the whole teaching of the bible on salvation. You faith only people, only hear certain verses instead of all of them. Rightly dividing the word is shunned for a few verses that tickle the ears.
> 
> Like the bible says. faith without works is dead. Faith without repentance is dead. Faith alone only exists because people wont believe the bible for what is says. But i dont blame the people. I blame the churches for tickling the ears of their flock.
> 
> Again, i'll ask for the verse in the bible that says 'faith alone'??



I totally agree.
Rather than preachers and other biblical experts expounding the "faith only" creed, they should be teaching all of the things that are a permanent part of "faith".
Biblically speaking, there's no such thing as "belief" only.
And that's what most people think faith only is insenuating.
Many things come together to develop "faith".
There's TRUST, DEPENDANCE, SURRENDER, even CONTENTMENT.

"Faith" but not "Faith only".


----------



## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> Jesus said repent or perish. You can say faith alone all you want but the bible does not say faith alone. The ONLY place where faith and alone are used together, it says faith PLUS works or it is a dead faith, "being ALONE"...
> 
> I think we would be better off to listen to the bible and what God has to say over martin luther.  faith w/o works is dead. faith w/o repentance is dead.  dead is dead. thats what the bible says and i am sticking to it,.,,



You're mixing arguments.  Jesus was right about repentance (and you've yet to refute my claim that repentance and faith are different sides of the same coin), but he was not talking about justification.  

In the reformation, they were talking about justification.  You said you didn't have a problem with the definition I provided earlier, so I'm baffled that you seem to still be confusing justification and sanctification.

Faith without works is dead offers NO rebuttal to justification by faith alone.  The justification that James speaks of is used totally differently, throughout his writings, than the justification that Paul spoke of.

Justification by faith alone does not mean:
1. Fruits don't matter
2. A half-hearted "get me out of h3ll" prayer is salvific
3. It's okay to have no change in your life post-conversion.

These are things that are NEVER uttered by any of the reformers.  Quite the contrary.

All that is said is that our right standing before God the Father is achieved by the work of Christ on the cross and faith in that work is what is required for believers to be justified AS OPPOSED to the idea that we are justified by the things that we do.

We're justified by faith alone in Christ.  Genuine faith will NECESSARILY lead to a life that bears fruits and performs good works, but those fruits and works are not what justify us before God.  They aren't good enough.

How about your definition of repentance?


----------



## thedeacon

It seems that the world is looking for one thing that puts us in a "saved" position. I contend that its not there except we are saved by the Grace of God. That includes a lot.

What if I was drowning and you throw me a life saver. What saved me? The float, the man that threw it, the rope that connected the float or the rope. 

When was I saved? When I grabbed the float, on the way to the dock, when I was pulled onto the boat or when I reached dry land.

Does faith save us? Yes it does. Can we have faith without having good works, without prayer, without study and meditation of Gods word? My bible says no.

Lets face it, we all agree that salvation comes in the obediance of our Lord and savior, we had best do everything we can to obey his commands.

If you love me you will keep my commandments. In other words you can please God without obeying his commandments.

Instead of worring so much about what we don't have to do maybe we should worry more about what we can do, for God.

God bless.


----------



## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> You're mixing arguments.  Jesus was right about repentance (and you've yet to refute my claim that repentance and faith are different sides of the same coin), but he was not talking about justification.
> 
> I am mixing arguements?? I am saying faith and repentance are not the same and you are mixing them by saying they are the same...?? I have already stated they are not the same. They are not the same in the bible, if they were you could use them interchangeably in the bible and you cannot do that. I am not gonna go in and copy 100 bible verses and paste them here. repentance is turning from a sinful life to a godly life. faith is Faith that God sent Jesus to die for our sins so that we dont have to go to heJJ.
> 
> In the reformation, they were talking about justification.  You said you didn't have a problem with the definition I provided earlier, so I'm baffled that you seem to still be confusing justification and sanctification.
> 
> I have not mentioned sanctification, how am i confusing them? This is about faith and repentance leading to justification, nothing said about sanctification.
> 
> Faith without works is dead offers NO rebuttal to justification by faith alone.  The justification that James speaks of is used totally differently, throughout his writings, than the justification that Paul spoke of.
> 
> Faith without works (as given to us in James) PROVES that faith alone is a dead faith. The bible PLAINLY says that faith alone is dead. Here let me give it to you so you can see.
> (James 2:17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
> Can there be any more Scripture saying that faith 'alone' is not enough??
> 
> Justification by faith alone does not mean:
> 1. Fruits don't matter
> 2. A half-hearted "get me out of h3ll" prayer is salvific
> 3. It's okay to have no change in your life post-conversion.
> 
> I never said it did.
> 
> These are things that are NEVER uttered by any of the reformers.  Quite the contrary.
> 
> i didnt say they did utter these things. Again my point is that they did say, "faith alone", which by itself, not including other critical passages IS a false gospel.
> 
> All that is said is that our right standing before God the Father is achieved by the work of Christ on the cross and faith in that work is what is required for believers to be justified AS OPPOSED to the idea that we are justified by the things that we do.
> 
> I agree. But faith is not a work. Believing is not a work. Repenting is not a work. We are commanded to repent, believe and have faith. They are not 'works'. We are saved by faith in Christ but not by itself. We also have to repent. We have to turn from a wicked lifestyle to a godly lifestyle. But that is not 'works'. Its obedience to a command. The reason why this is even explained the way it is in the bible is because God knew that many people would say, "hey all i got to do is have 'faith' that Jesus died for my sins and i get a free pass into heaven, woohoo!"  So in James, God explained that its not that easy and yes there is something we have to do. We have to believe, have faith and repent to be saved but those things are not 'works' and they are not 'law'. God said "do the". So we should do them. We have to do them. God said be do'er of the word and not just a hearer. He that loves me is he that hears my words and KEEPS them.
> 
> We're justified by faith alone in Christ.  Genuine faith will NECESSARILY lead to a life that bears fruits and performs good works, but those fruits and works are not what justify us before God.  They aren't good enough.
> 
> We are not justified by 'faith 'alone''.  if you say you have faith in Christ, but you keep sinning, you havent repented, you havent changed your lifestyle, you are still worldly... you havent been converted. The key to justification is conversion. You will NOT be converted without repentance. Its impossible. Without conversion and receiving of the holy spirit, you are not saved. Jesus said that without the holy spirit, you are NONE of his...
> 
> How about your definition of repentance?



Turning from a wicked sinful lifestyle to godly and holy living. Taking up your cross daily. Hating your sins. Obedience to Christ instead of the flesh.


----------



## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> Turning from a wicked sinful lifestyle to godly and holy living. Taking up your cross daily. Hating your sins. Obedience to Christ instead of the flesh.



I'll address the rest later, but I do not see how what you've described above is not a work...especially "taking up your cross daily".  

I agree that this is something that will come with genuine faith, but it is not what justifies.  Could you show me where Paul says that we are justified by faith and repentance?  How about James?  Timothy?  John?

Oh, and what you described as faith does not jive with the reformers definition of faith.  You've described an intellectual assent, not trusting in Christ.  Feel free to disagree with the reformers, but don't play semantic games.  When you disagree with their assertions, make sure you understand their lexicon.


----------



## johnnylightnin

From Grudem's Systematic Theology:

Faith: trust or dependence on God based on the fact that we take him at his word and believe what he said.

Repentance: A heartfelt sorrow for sin, a renouncing of it, and a sincere commitment to forsake it and walk in obedience to Christ.

Sanctification: A progressive work of God and man that makes us more and more free from sin and more like Christ in our actual lives.

Any problems with those definitions?


----------



## Gabassmaster

johnnylightnin said:


> i'll address the rest later, but i do not see how what you've described above is not a work...especially "taking up your cross daily".
> 
> I agree that this is something that will come with genuine faith, but it is not what justifies.  Could you show me where paul says that we are justified by faith and repentance?  How about james?  Timothy?  John?
> 
> Oh, and what you described as faith does not jive with the reformers definition of faith.  You've described an intellectual assent, not trusting in christ.  Feel free to disagree with the reformers, but don't play semantic games.  When you disagree with their assertions, make sure you understand their lexicon.




you cant have one without the other, if you only have one you never got the real thing.


----------



## johnnylightnin

Gabassmaster said:


> you cant have one without the other, if you only have one you never got the real thing.



I agree with that.  That does not mean, however, that works justify.  Especially when Paul says that we are justified by faith apart from works so that no man can boast.

Genuine faith yields the fruits of the Spirit.  I don't argue that, Luther didn't argue that, and neither does anyone in the "faith alone" crowd.

You are justified (by faith) and THEN you have the standing before God that makes it possible to please Him (because he's looking at Christ, not you).  The question is not whether or not Christians will have works to prove their faith.  The question is whether or not it is faith or works that justify a man before God.  The Scripture is CRYSTAL clear that it is faith.

OH...just realized that you were likely referring to faith and repentance.  I think you are right that you can't have one without the other...which is the basis for my claim that they are different sides of the same coin.  Faith in Christ is abandoning faith in anything else...which is repentance from sin.


----------



## rjcruiser

FritzMichaels said:


> If a nonbeliever hears the gospel and joins a 'faith alone' church they will never hear repentance, just grace and faith.



You haven't been to many "faith alone" churches then

Grace Community Church (Dr. MacArthur's church) is a Faith Alone church and I'd contend with you that you'd find any better Biblical teaching on the gospel than at that church.



johnnylightnin said:


> You're mixing arguments.  Jesus was right about repentance (and you've yet to refute my claim that repentance and faith are different sides of the same coin), but he was not talking about justification.
> 
> In the reformation, they were talking about justification.  You said you didn't have a problem with the definition I provided earlier, so I'm baffled that you seem to still be confusing justification and sanctification.
> 
> Faith without works is dead offers NO rebuttal to justification by faith alone.  The justification that James speaks of is used totally differently, throughout his writings, than the justification that Paul spoke of.
> 
> Justification by faith alone does not mean:
> 1. Fruits don't matter
> 2. A half-hearted "get me out of h3ll" prayer is salvific
> 3. It's okay to have no change in your life post-conversion.
> 
> These are things that are NEVER uttered by any of the reformers.  Quite the contrary.
> 
> All that is said is that our right standing before God the Father is achieved by the work of Christ on the cross and faith in that work is what is required for believers to be justified AS OPPOSED to the idea that we are justified by the things that we do.
> 
> We're justified by faith alone in Christ.  Genuine faith will NECESSARILY lead to a life that bears fruits and performs good works, but those fruits and works are not what justify us before God.  They aren't good enough.
> 
> How about your definition of repentance?





johnnylightnin said:


> I agree with that.  That does not mean, however, that works justify.  Especially when Paul says that we are justified by faith apart from works so that no man can boast.
> 
> Genuine faith yields the fruits of the Spirit.  I don't argue that, Luther didn't argue that, and neither does anyone in the "faith alone" crowd.
> 
> You are justified (by faith) and THEN you have the standing before God that makes it possible to please Him (because he's looking at Christ, not you).  The question is not whether or not Christians will have works to prove their faith.  The question is whether or not it is faith or works that justify a man before God.  The Scripture is CRYSTAL clear that it is faith.
> 
> OH...just realized that you were likely referring to faith and repentance.  I think you are right that you can't have one without the other...which is the basis for my claim that they are different sides of the same coin.  Faith in Christ is abandoning faith in anything else...which is repentance from sin.


----------



## FritzMichaels

Except for the fact that 'faith alone' without repentance is a false gospel. and that he teaches the heresies of calvin, which got his doctrines from Jerome which got them from Augustine who was a heretic and a murderer... maybe thats where calvin got it his doctrine of murder and persecution. Its not wise to follow men who follow murderers. But HEY, you do what you want.


----------



## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> Except for the fact that 'faith alone' without repentance is a false gospel. and that he teaches the heresies of calvin, which got his doctrines from Jerome which got them from Augustine who was a heretic and a murderer... maybe thats where calvin got it his doctrine of murder and persecution. Its not wise to follow men who follow murderers. But HEY, you do what you want.



Verses...where are they?

When did anybody say anything about faith without repentance or faith without works?  

It's very simple.  We're justified by faith (Paul didn't add anything to that statement because there is nothing to be added).  This faith WILL result in works, but it is not the works that do the justifying.  You've yet to show in Scripture anything that comes close to refuting what I've said.

You can type all you want about Calvin or Luther or Jerome, but if you have a problem with justification by faith alone, you're problem is with the Apostle Paul and the God who inspired him to write.


----------



## FritzMichaels

It is funny, all of you osas, calvinists, reformed theologians and faith aloners run in the same circles. The bible is clear. Faith w/o works is dead therefore it cannot possibly be true faith if it is 'alone'. I guess James was lying when he said faith MUST be accompanied by works to be true faith. Its not the works that save but its the works that prove the faith is saving faith. So you can keep on misinforming people that its 'faith alone' and deceiving yourself. Its obvious you are not interested in what God says about faith alone but only what the reformers said. i will take what Jesus and James said, long before calvin and luther or macarthur...


----------



## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> Verses...where are they?
> 
> When did anybody say anything about faith without repentance or faith without works?
> 
> It's very simple.  We're justified by faith (Paul didn't add anything to that statement because there is nothing to be added).  This faith WILL result in works, but it is not the works that do the justifying.  You've yet to show in Scripture anything that comes close to refuting what I've said.
> 
> You can type all you want about Calvin or Luther or Jerome, but if you have a problem with justification by faith alone, you're problem is with the Apostle Paul and the God who inspired him to write.




Let me ask you Lightening a question...  if an unbelieving friend came to you and said, "Johnny, what must I do to be saved"?... What would you tell him?


----------



## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> It is funny, all of you osas, calvinists, reformed theologians and faith aloners run in the same circles. The bible is clear. Faith w/o works is dead therefore it cannot possibly be true faith if it is 'alone'. I guess James was lying when he said faith MUST be accompanied by works to be true faith. Its not the works that save but its the works that prove the faith is saving faith. So you can keep on misinforming people that its 'faith alone' and deceiving yourself. Its obvious you are not interested in what God says about faith alone but only what the reformers said. i will take what Jesus and James said, long before calvin and luther or macarthur...



And who ever argued that faith without works wasn't dead? We're not talking about post salvation living (sanctification), we're talking about justification as defined earlier.  You're building up a straw man, but you're not arguing the point.

You keep _ad hominem_ attacking...it's clearly something you're skilled at.  What you haven't done is refute the texts provided.  I've already addressed the text in James and you offered no refutation.

I can only conclude that you do not understand what is meant by the term justification.

Again, show me where your position is supported in the Scripture.  The text in James certainly does not support it.

As for your question about how I witness, I'll answer that after you answer my question (remember, I don't have issue with repentance being tied necessarily to the faith that justifies).

Show me where the Scripture says anything about justification by ANYTHING other than faith.


----------



## Gabassmaster

FritzMichaels said:


> Let me ask you Lightening a question...  if an unbelieving friend came to you and said, "Johnny, what must I do to be saved"?... What would you tell him?



repent, ask the lord to save you, to me when you get saved is when you finnaly realize how real hejj is and you look for god for help.


----------



## FritzMichaels

Bassmaster, you have more spiritual wisdom than 100 men, twice your age. the holy spirit is evident.

Lightnin, i am going to my foodplot to shoot godzilla now and will address your last post tonite...


----------



## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> And who ever argued that faith without works wasn't dead? We're not talking about post salvation living (sanctification), we're talking about justification as defined earlier.  You're building up a straw man, but you're not arguing the point.
> 
> You are saying that its faith alone yet works must accompany faith... Do you see the conundrum here? Only the religionists will say that works save. We all know we must have faith. Works by themselves cannot save. We know that too. But you are leaving out repentance. I am not making an argument for faith plus works to be saved but an argument for faith plus repentance. Jesus said 'no repentance' = 'no salvation' so therefore its a must. we must turn from wicked sinful lives to serving the Creator AND living holy. Faith and repentance go together in salvation like flour and eggs go together in making a cake. They go together.
> 
> 
> You keep _ad hominem_ attacking...it's clearly something you're skilled at.  What you haven't done is refute the texts provided.  I've already addressed the text in James and you offered no refutation.
> 
> you havent addressed James. James says faith without works is dead and you keep saying 'faith alone'. For the millionth time, 'faith without works is dead' therefore works must accompany faith or that faith is dead. do the works save? no. Does the faith save? yes, BUT ONLY IF ACCOMPANIED BY WORKS... James is clear.
> 
> I can only conclude that you do not understand what is meant by the term justification.
> 
> I understand justification, thank you.
> 
> Again, show me where your position is supported in the Scripture.  The text in James certainly does not support it.
> 
> What i am saying is EXACTLY what James is saying... Faith saves but when the faith is not proven by works, there is no saving faith. There are 3 types of faith. 1) saving faith (faith proven by works) 2) unsaving faith (faith w/o works) and 3) demonic faith (the faith of demons). The entire book of the bible supports my position because my position is what the bible says...
> 
> As for your question about how I witness, I'll answer that after you answer my question (remember, I don't have issue with repentance being tied necessarily to the faith that justifies).
> 
> I am not questioning your witnessing, i dont know you. You could be the greatest evangelist in the world as far as i know. I simply asked you a question that you dont want to answer.
> 
> Show me where the Scripture says anything about justification by ANYTHING other than faith.




Luke 5:32
Luke 3:3
Mark 6:12
Luke 13:3
Luke 13:5
Mat 3:2
Mat 9:13
Mark 1:4
Luke 15:7
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19
Acts 8:22
Acts 17:30
Mark 16:16
Acts 27:31
Rom 8:24
I can go on and on but will post a few verses just to answer your question.


----------



## johnnylightnin

You misunderstand James. I've explained it, but you will not acknowledge it. None of those verses say anything about faith plus repentance (as you defined it, clearly a work) as a requirement for justification. You can insist that you understand this, but your argument shows that you do not.

What you fail to understand is the difference between a work that will necessarily follow genuine faith and a work that justifies. Paul said we're justified by faith. He didn't add anything to it because there was nothing to add. If you're interested, I'll post a few paragraphs on what James meant when he referred to justification (which I already aluded to). But, if you have no intention of rationally engaging the argument, then I won't waste my time. Just let me know.


----------



## hayseed_theology

FritzMichaels said:


> Their authority was the word of God??  You mean like when they prayed to Mary and killed people for not baptizing babies?? That does not sound like their authority was the word of God.
> 
> Faith and repentance are not the same... and both are necessary for salvation



"God claims this one prerogative as his very own - to rule us by the authority and laws of his Word."

"They have no right to command the church to observe as obligatory what they have themselves conceived apart from God's Word."

That's just two of a plethora of quotes from Calvin on the authority of Scripture as the only rule of faith.  Just because you don't agree with their interpretation does not mean that they did not believe the Word of God was their authority.  For the record, I don't follow Calvin.  I agree with him on some things.  However, I disagree with him on a number of issues, but I still wouldn't resort to charging him with heresy or rejecting the authority of Scripture.  It's almost comical to hear you decry the Reformers while standing on their shoulders.  Who did God use to revive the notion of _Sola Scriptura_?


With regards to faith and repentance, suppose I am driving north.  If all of the sudden I start heading south, have I not turned away from my original direction?  Is it possible to turn towards the south without at the same time turning away from the north?  I have turned towards the south but that same action could be described as turning away from the north.  Is it possible to go both north and south at the same time?  No.

Think about an unbeliever who is chasing after sin.  If he begins following Christ, has he not turned away from sin?  Is it possible to follow Christ without at the same time turning away from sin?  He is following Christ but that same change of direction could be described as a turning away from sin.  Is it possible to be following both Christ and sin?  No.  Faith is the description of the new direction; repentance is a description of a turning away from the old direction.  They both describe necessary parts of the same action.  As Johnny said, they are two sides of the same coin.


----------



## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> You misunderstand James. I've explained it, but you will not acknowledge it. None of those verses say anything about faith plus repentance (as you defined it, clearly a work) as a requirement for justification. You can insist that you understand this, but your argument shows that you do not.
> 
> What you fail to understand is the difference between a work that will necessarily follow genuine faith and a work that justifies. Paul said we're justified by faith. He didn't add anything to it because there was nothing to add. If you're interested, I'll post a few paragraphs on what James meant when he referred to justification (which I already aluded to). But, if you have no intention of rationally engaging the argument, then I won't waste my time. Just let me know.



I misunderstand? You think everything but faith is a work and evil. thats the problem here. the problem is that in your mind everything such as repentance is a 'work' when it is NOT a work. thats because you have listened to too many reformed preachers who preach osas and grace alone and faith alone and throw the Word of God under the bus.

this thread was about the bible and using the bible to prove faith alone or faith not alone. James 2 proves faith w/o works is dead. So you can sit there and say faith alone all day long and you will be guilty of preaching a false gospel. i am not saying that works saves. God Forbid! But when a person has genuine biblical faith he will have works as evidence. the ONLY think (imo) that is required besides faith is repentance. thats the only other thing that i can see from the bible that is required and faith and repentance are not the same.  your won definition that you posted proves they are not the same which is funny because for the first 100 posts you kept saying they were the same.

i will state my case one more time.

faith and repentance are different

faith is required for salvation

repentance is required for salvation

works do not justify in themselves BUT will be evident when genuine faith and repentance have taken place, therefore making them required

repentance is no more a work than faith or believing

the bible says that faith w/o works is dead. this cannot be proven otherwise whether using calvin, luther or the bible. 

so when you or a pastor says "you are saved by faith alone"... that is a lie. if you dont repent you will not see God but only the devil and his angels who heJJ was made for. faith alone is NOT in the bible except where God said in James 2 that works must accompany faith or else faith is dead, being alone. Jesus said repent or perish. so when luther said 'faith alone' he was lying or was just plain stupid of Scripture. 

and btw, you havent answered my question yet. What must a person do to be saved?


----------



## johnnylightnin

You don't understand justification or the position of the reformers...either that or you just like playing semantic games and getting into cyber spats.

Good night.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Please give an example of the "works" required or not required so that we observers might better understand this debate.


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## rjcruiser

FritzMichaels said:


> works do not justify in themselves BUT will be evident when genuine faith and repentance have taken place, therefore making them required



If they don't Justify, why are they required for justification?



			
				FritzMichaels said:
			
		

> so when you or a pastor says "you are saved by faith alone"... that is a lie. if you dont repent you will not see God but only the devil and his angels who heJJ was made for. faith alone is NOT in the bible except where God said in James 2 that works must accompany faith or else faith is dead, being alone. Jesus said repent or perish. so when luther said 'faith alone' he was lying or was just plain stupid of Scripture.



What about Paul in his letter to Titus?

Titus 3

 3For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 

 4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 

5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 

 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 

 7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.



I guess what the reformers said was right.  It isn't about our works.  It isn't about us at all.  It was God who CHOSE us and justified us by HIS GRACE.  Wow...what a concept.




			
				FritzMichaels said:
			
		

> and btw, you havent answered my question yet. What must a person do to be saved?



Be chosen by God


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## FritzMichaels

I am amazed that yall cant grasp 'faith without works is dead'.  We are in agreement that faith saves and works do not save. But you are not seeing that works must accompany faith or the faith is not saving faith but a dead faith. Thus works or necessary in the aspect of proving the faith to be a real and saving faith. Oh well, i tried.


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## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> If they don't Justify, why are they required for justification?
> 
> 
> 
> What about Paul in his letter to Titus?
> 
> Titus 3
> 
> 3For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
> 4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
> 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
> 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
> 7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.



Specifically, verse 4 and 5 and the others here are speaking of what brought us into Christ from the world of sin we were once uncontrollable attached to.
What he is saying is that we did not, in the beginning, enter Christ because we were great, righteous people.  He did it by His mercy and by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.  We weren't required to complete ten acts of righteousness before salvation would be granted us.  We were allowed into Christ on the basis of His grace.

Now, just about every other verse of Titus talks of the fruits that are to be evident in the life of one who has been so graciously saved.

Titus 1:16 is worth mentioning:  "They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed."


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## ronpasley

FritzMichaels said:


> I am amazed that yall cant grasp 'faith without works is dead'.  We are in agreement that faith saves and works do not save. But you are not seeing that works must accompany faith or the faith is not saving faith but a dead faith. Thus works or necessary in the aspect of proving the faith to be a real and saving faith. Oh well, i tried.




Amen to that brother, Jesus brother said "I will show you my faith by my works"


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## vanguard1

Acts 17:30 (King James Version)

 30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent
Acts 20:21 (King James Version)

 21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.


Acts 26:20 (King James Version)

 20But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance
Revelation 2:5 (King James Version)

 5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent


----------



## rjcruiser

FritzMichaels said:


> I am amazed that yall cant grasp 'faith without works is dead'.  We are in agreement that faith saves and works do not save. But you are not seeing that works must accompany faith or the faith is not saving faith but a dead faith. Thus works or necessary in the aspect of proving the faith to be a real and saving faith. Oh well, i tried.



Why do you say we can't grasp "faith without works is dead?"

We all agree on that...at least I do.  But that isn't the question at hand.  The question isn't about Sanctification...but about Justification.  

You seem unable to grasp the concept of a two sided coin.




Ronnie T said:


> Specifically, verse 4 and 5 and the others here are speaking of what brought us into Christ from the world of sin we were once uncontrollable attached to.
> What he is saying is that we did not, in the beginning, enter Christ because we were great, righteous people.  He did it by His mercy and by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.  We weren't required to complete ten acts of righteousness before salvation would be granted us.  We were allowed into Christ on the basis of His grace.
> 
> Now, just about every other verse of Titus talks of the fruits that are to be evident in the life of one who has been so graciously saved.
> 
> Titus 1:16 is worth mentioning:  "They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed."



To bad Paul put those verses in there about Jusitification by Faith

I agree with you Ronnie...we are called to live holy lives.  Going on in sin wouldn't be holy living.  But when it comes to justification...no amount of works can save.

Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. 


It wouldn't be a free gift if we had to do something to get it


----------



## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> I am amazed that yall cant grasp 'faith without works is dead'.  We are in agreement that faith saves and works do not save. But you are not seeing that works must accompany faith or the faith is not saving faith but a dead faith. Thus works or necessary in the aspect of proving the faith to be a real and saving faith. Oh well, i tried.



And this post is a perfect example of you not understanding justification.  I haven't read one reply that denied that faith without works is dead.  You think Paul and the reformers were talking about dead faith?  Absolutely not.  They were talking about saving faith alone that justifies men before GOD.  Now, I can't tell if your faith is genuine absolutely, so I have to look at your works.  Works prove your justification before men, but God knows perfectly whether or not your faith was saving faith to begin with.

You're implying that the reformers were talking about something other than saving faith and that's a foolish position.

So, again, either you don't understand justification, you don't understand the position of the reformers (which is the position of the Apostle Paul), or you just like to argue.

Either way, I'm done.

What must you do to be saved? Put your faith in Christ Jesus for the forgiveness of sins...that entails repentance.  See Hayseed's analogy, he says it much better than I can.



hayseed_theology said:


> With regards to faith and repentance, suppose I am driving north.  If all of the sudden I start heading south, have I not turned away from my original direction?  Is it possible to turn towards the south without at the same time turning away from the north?  I have turned towards the south but that same action could be described as turning away from the north.  Is it possible to go both north and south at the same time?  No.
> 
> Think about an unbeliever who is chasing after sin.  If he begins following Christ, has he not turned away from sin?  Is it possible to follow Christ without at the same time turning away from sin?  He is following Christ but that same change of direction could be described as a turning away from sin.  Is it possible to be following both Christ and sin?  No.  Faith is the description of the new direction; repentance is a description of a turning away from the old direction.  They both describe necessary parts of the same action.  As Johnny said, they are two sides of the same coin.


----------



## hayseed_theology

FritzMichaels said:


> Let me ask you Lightening a question...  if an unbelieving friend came to you and said, "Johnny, what must I do to be saved"?... What would you tell him?



Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.


----------



## Gabassmaster

FritzMichaels said:


> Bassmaster, you have more spiritual wisdom than 100 men, twice your age. the holy spirit is evident.
> 
> Lightnin, i am going to my foodplot to shoot godzilla now and will address your last post tonite...



Fritz i dont think everyone has what i got. Im in deep like real real deep, i cant get out now lol.


----------



## FritzMichaels

hayseed_theology said:


> Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.



If somebody asks you how to be saved and all you say is "believe in the Lord..." You just gave them a false gospel., You just created a false convert. Good job.  A partial truth is not the truth.


----------



## Gabassmaster

FritzMichaels said:


> If somebody asks you how to be saved and all you say is "believe in the Lord..." You just gave them a false gospel., You just created a false convert. Good job.  A partial truth is not the truth.



X2. I cant stand to hear people say that. I know of churches that will be in the middle of a sermon and say"who wants to go to heaven?" and all the small children and some teens will go with them and they will get them to recite a prayer and say they believe in him. If it was that easy instead of going to church i would have everyone recite a prayer but its not, they gotta get saved through hearing the gospel and repenting and asking the lord  to save them.


----------



## johnnylightnin

What's sad is that y'all would rather play semantic games and win an argument that genuinely try to understand what is being said.


----------



## Gabassmaster

johnnylightnin said:


> What's sad is that y'all would rather play semantic games and win an argument that genuinely try to understand what is being said.



its only semantic to the ones that truely dont understand. just like the old saying a wise man can learn alot from a dumb question but a dumb man can learn nothing from a wise answer.


----------



## johnnylightnin

Gabassmaster said:


> its only semantic to the ones that truely dont understand. just like the old saying a wise man can learn alot from a dumb question but a dumb man can learn nothing from a wise answer.



Okay...here's a dumb question for you.

Do you know what Hayseed means when he says what he typed?  Or, do you just assume you know and replace what he has intended his words to mean with your understanding of some easy beliefism?


----------



## hayseed_theology

FritzMichaels said:


> If somebody asks you how to be saved and all you say is "believe in the Lord..." You just gave them a false gospel., You just created a false convert. Good job.  A partial truth is not the truth.





Gabassmaster said:


> X2. I cant stand to hear people say that. I know of churches that will be in the middle of a sermon and say"who wants to go to heaven?" and all the small children and some teens will go with them and they will get them to recite a prayer and say they believe in him. If it was that easy instead of going to church i would have everyone recite a prayer but its not, they gotta get saved through hearing the gospel and repenting and asking the lord  to save them.



Now it becomes clear.  Your problem is not with the Reformers but with the words of Scripture.  Astonishing!!! You have just called the words of an apostle a false gospel!!!

Acts 16:30-31

Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"  And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."


Is that the only words I speak in an evangelistic encounter?  No.  I don't just simply repeat "Believe in Jesus."  I unpack that statement.  I explain their current state.  I explain who Christ is and what he has done that they should believe on him.  I explain what true belief looks like.

You asked a simple question (a question that is asked in Scripture); I gave a simple answer (the answer that is found in Scripture).  "Believe in the Lord Jesus" is the correct answer.  If you are not satisfied with the answer of Paul and Silas, I 'm not sure what I can do for you.


----------



## Gabassmaster

hayseed_theology said:


> Now it becomes clear.  Your problem is not with the Reformers but with the words of Scripture.  Astonishing!!! You have just called the words of an apostle a false gospel!!!
> 
> Acts 16:30-31
> 
> Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"  And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
> 
> 
> Is that the only words I speak in an evangelistic encounter?  No.  I don't just simply repeat "Believe in Jesus."  I unpack that statement.  I explain their current state.  I explain who Christ is and what he has done that they should believe on him.  I explain what true belief looks like.
> 
> You asked a simple question (a question that is asked in Scripture); I gave a simple answer (the answer that is found in Scripture).  "Believe in the Lord Jesus" is the correct answer.  If you are not satisfied with the answer of Paul and Silas, I 'm not sure what I can do for you.




i never said thats not the way im just saying if you tell someone all they gotta do is say they believe then they never really got saved and they are faking it. its gotta be real.


----------



## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> What's sad is that y'all would rather play semantic games and win an argument that genuinely try to understand what is being said.



I understand perfectly what is being said and I am not playing any games nor trying to win an arguement. The thread was about faith and what it entails. The 'faith alone' gospel that is being taught today is a partial truth and thus not a gospel at all. Its as simple as that. Jesus commanded us to repent and be converted. So 'faith alone' is not true nor is it taught in the bible. Dont get mad at me, I didnt write the book.


----------



## hayseed_theology

Gabassmaster said:


> i never said thats not the way im just saying if you tell someone all they gotta do is say they believe then they never really got saved and they are faking it. its gotta be real.



So was the answer Paul and Silas gave correct?  Yes or No. If it was correct, why is it incorrect when I repeat it?


----------



## FritzMichaels

hayseed_theology said:


> Now it becomes clear.  Your problem is not with the Reformers but with the words of Scripture.  Astonishing!!! You have just called the words of an apostle a false gospel!!!
> 
> Acts 16:30-31
> 
> Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"  And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
> 
> 
> Is that the only words I speak in an evangelistic encounter?  No.  I don't just simply repeat "Believe in Jesus."  I unpack that statement.  I explain their current state.  I explain who Christ is and what he has done that they should believe on him.  I explain what true belief looks like.
> 
> You asked a simple question (a question that is asked in Scripture); I gave a simple answer (the answer that is found in Scripture).  "Believe in the Lord Jesus" is the correct answer.  If you are not satisfied with the answer of Paul and Silas, I 'm not sure what I can do for you.




There is more to justification than just believing. The devils believe and they arent saved. You gave a simple answer that was a partial truth. You have fully answered the question now and still have yet to mention repentance or conversion... thats astonishing... that people believe salvation can occur without things that are made necessary by God.  Anyway.... I appreciate yalls input.


----------



## Gabassmaster

hayseed_theology said:


> So was the answer Paul and Silas gave correct?  Yes or No. If it was correct, why is it incorrect when I repeat it?



what fritz said
|
|
v


----------



## FritzMichaels

hayseed_theology said:


> So was the answer Paul and Silas gave correct?  Yes or No. If it was correct, why is it incorrect when I repeat it?



i know that you're asking bassmaster but the answer is yes. it is correct. but its a partial correct. if you go to make a cake and forget the eggs, butter and flour and bake it... you wont have a cake.


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## hayseed_theology

FritzMichaels said:


> i know that you're asking bassmaster but the answer is yes. it is correct. but its a partial correct. if you go to make a cake and forget the eggs, butter and flour and bake it... you wont have a cake.



So Paul and Silas were only partially correct?


----------



## Gabassmaster

hayseed_theology said:


> So Paul and Silas were only partially correct?



in my bible it says you also have to be borned again.


----------



## hayseed_theology

hayseed_theology said:


> So Paul and Silas were only partially correct?





Gabassmaster said:


> in my bible it says you also have to be borned again.



I'll take that as a "yes."


----------



## Gabassmaster

hayseed_theology said:


> I'll take that as a "yes."



so can you get to heaven without being borned again???


----------



## Gabassmaster

john 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, Verily i say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of god.


----------



## hayseed_theology

Gabassmaster said:


> so can you get to heaven without being borned again???



The question was, "What must I do to be saved?"  The answer according to Paul and Silas is, "Believe in the Lord Jesus."

Certainly, Christ says in John 3 that you must be born again to see the kingdom of God, but this is a passive command.  This is what throws Nicodemus for a loop.  Christ says this must happen to you, and Nicodemus replies "that's not something that I can do to myself.  This isn't something I can do."  This new birth is known as regeneration.  Regeneration is the work of God.  "It is the spirit who gives life."  If someone asks, "What must I do to be saved?"  The correct answer is "believe in the Lord Jesus," not "be regenerated."  God demands that we believe on Christ, not that we regenerate ourselves.  Regeneration is God's work.  It's a confusion of theological categories to bring in John 3:3.  Yes, you must be born again to see eternal life, but that is not the answer to the question, "what must I do?"

It's interesting that you bring up John 3 because verses 14 through 18 explicitly state that whoever believes in Christ has eternal life.


----------



## FritzMichaels

hayseed_theology said:


> So Paul and Silas were only partially correct?



You're kidding right? You are a smart guy. You know how the bible is written. You cannot just take one verse and make that verse dogmatic when all of the verses are equally important.  EX: Acts 2:38 Acts 3:19  Peter said "repent and be converted and receive the holy ghost"...
What if i took just those 2 verses that do not mention faith or believing and say that "repentance is the ONLY thing necessary for salvation... would that be correct? No. Faith would be missing. Well that is what you and cruiser and lightning are doing. You are putting more importance on the 'faith' verses and ignoring the repentance verses. We have to consider them all to come with a formula for salvation. We are to 'rightly divide the word' not 'divide it.'

another EX:  Luke 10:25 a lawyer asked Jesus how to be saved and Jesus said to love God and neighbor and never mentioned faith or repentance. Now if I take just that verse and use it by itself i come up with a 100% works salvation which we know is not true. so we have to use  all of the verses that pertain to salvation in the bible to come to a determination of what salvation consists of. I can tell you what it does not consist of thats 'faith alone'...


----------



## FritzMichaels

hayseed_theology said:


> but this is a passive command.



Passive command?  This must be one of those luther teachings not found in the bible. A command is a command otherwise it would be a recommendation or a suggestion. God HIGHLY frowns upon the adding to his word...


----------



## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> I understand perfectly what is being said and I am not playing any games nor trying to win an arguement. The thread was about faith and what it entails. The 'faith alone' gospel that is being taught today is a partial truth and thus not a gospel at all. Its as simple as that. Jesus commanded us to repent and be converted. So 'faith alone' is not true nor is it taught in the bible. Dont get mad at me, I didnt write the book.



Faith alone refers to justification which is PART of the Christian life.  Are we called to do good works?  Absolutely, but that's not what justifies us.

Again, you either don't understand or you're being intentionally difficult.  Oh, and I'm not mad, I just don't want anyone to come away with some works righteousness ideas by reading what you've written.

The Gospel is that there is a gulf between God and man and that gulf is a product of our sin.  NOTHING we can do will bridge the divide.  Only Christ can do that.  My works are useless as a means of righteousness.  I have to have faith in Christ's righteousness.  Once I've done that, good works will follow, but they are NOT what justifies.


----------



## FritzMichaels

I said over and over works do not justify. But they are necessary because they prove the faith is a saving faith. Its bible teaching. I never said that woks save or justify but they are necessary for salvation. Your car takes you to and from work. Your car is the transportation. But without gas in the engine you will go nowhere. if you put gas in the car and you go to work, the car got you to work BUT you would have gone nowhere w/o the gas. So does the gas get you to work, no, the car does, but is the gas necessary to get make your car work properly? yes.

I would never tell anyone seeking Christ (Yes, we can seek Christ) that they must do good works to get to heaven, and I would tell them they need faith and repentance and to be converted or bornagain. and that when they have a true saving faith, then good works will be evident. Just like James said, faith without works is dead being ALONE...


----------



## hayseed_theology

FritzMichaels said:


> Passive command?  This must be one of those luther teachings not found in the bible. A command is a command otherwise it would be a recommendation or a suggestion. God HIGHLY frowns upon the adding to his word...



I'm sorry if the word "passive" was unclear.  But I have to ask, did you birth yourself?  Is regeneration our work or God's work?  I think John 3 and the rest of Scripture make it pretty clear that it is God who gives new life/birth.  Are you suggesting that Christ is telling Nic that he shouldn't look to God for new life but rather it is something he must do of his own accord?

Yes, adding to the word of God is a very serious issue, so I would also be careful about accusing others of doing so.  I am simply trying to explain the word of God.  Sometimes, it is not helpful to use a word to define itself, in that case, you have to use different words to be clear.  The doctrine of the trinity is a clear example of this.  Those who opposed the doctrine of the trinity did so by saying things like "God HIGHLY frowns on adding to his word..."


----------



## hayseed_theology

Fritz,

To continue the discussion, it would be helpful if you would interact with my analogy concerning faith and repentance.  I think this is a pretty important part of the discussion.




hayseed_theology said:


> With regards to faith and repentance, suppose I am driving north.  If all of the sudden I start heading south, have I not turned away from my original direction?  Is it possible to turn towards the south without at the same time turning away from the north?  I have turned towards the south but that same action could be described as turning away from the north.  Is it possible to go both north and south at the same time?  No.
> 
> Think about an unbeliever who is chasing after sin.  If he begins following Christ, has he not turned away from sin?  Is it possible to follow Christ without at the same time turning away from sin?  He is following Christ but that same change of direction could be described as a turning away from sin.  Is it possible to be following both Christ and sin?  No.  Faith is the description of the new direction; repentance is a description of a turning away from the old direction.  They both describe necessary parts of the same action.  As Johnny said, they are two sides of the same coin.



Just to be clear,  do you believe it is possible to turn towards Christ without turning away from sin?  And, conversely, is it possible to turn away from sin without turning towards Christ?


----------



## FritzMichaels

hayseed_theology said:


> I'm sorry if the word "passive" was unclear.  But I have to ask, did you birth yourself?  Is regeneration our work or God's work?  I think John 3 and the rest of Scripture make it pretty clear that it is God who gives new life/birth.  Are you suggesting that Christ is telling Nic that he shouldn't look to God for new life but rather it is something he must do of his own accord?
> 
> Yes, adding to the word of God is a very serious issue, so I would also be careful about accusing others of doing so.  I am simply trying to explain the word of God.  Sometimes, it is not helpful to use a word to define itself, in that case, you have to use different words to be clear.  The doctrine of the trinity is a clear example of this.  Those who opposed the doctrine of the trinity did so by saying things like "God HIGHLY frowns on adding to his word..."



Passive is very clear but when you say some commands of Christ are literal and some are passive you are adding to the word of God. You are now steering this thread in another direction. I will be happy to discuss but would rather do so in another thread. Just dont want it to get off topic.


----------



## FritzMichaels

hayseed_theology said:


> Fritz,
> 
> To continue the discussion, it would be helpful if you would interact with my analogy concerning faith and repentance.  I think this is a pretty important part of the discussion.
> 
> Just to be clear,  do you believe it is possible to turn towards Christ without turning away from sin?  And, conversely, is it possible to turn away from sin without turning towards Christ?



Yes, but the salvation is not genuine. if you have been genuinely saved and received the holy spirit, the spirit will not allow you to woller in sin. A saved person will desire to root out all sins and kill them. I would guess most professing Christians turn towards Christ but never address sins.

Yes, there are many people who have no desire for Christ or salvation in any way who try to clean up their lives, stop drinking, stop smoking, stop having affairs, devote time to charities, give to the poor. But they are not saved either, according to the bible.

There are lots of good moral people who rarely sin but despise Christ and are not believers. They are just as unsaved as Hitler was.


----------



## hayseed_theology

FritzMichaels said:


> Passive is very clear but when you say some commands of Christ are literal and some are passive you are adding to the word of God. You are now steering this thread in another direction. I will be happy to discuss but would rather do so in another thread. Just dont want it to get off topic.




You are misunderstanding me.  I didn't say some were literal and some were passive.  I am saying it is a true and necessary command, but it is not something you do to yourself.  It is something God does in you.  It is not your work; it is God's work.  It is no less of a command.  It is no less literal.  You must be born again, but it is God who is responsible for this new life, this new creation, this new birth.  "It is the spirit who gives life."


----------



## FritzMichaels

hayseed_theology said:


> You are misunderstanding me.  I didn't say some were literal and some were passive.  I am saying it is a true and necessary command, but it is not something you do to yourself.  It is something God does in you.  It is not your work; it is God's work.  It is no less of a command.  It is no less literal.  You must be born again, but it is God who is responsible for this new life, this new creation, this new birth.  "It is the spirit who gives life."




I know, I know. I have studied mr. calvin and his false teachings. We are all just robots who can do nothing ourselves unless God does it all... I wonder how many people are in heJJ now because they listened to calvins doctrines and just stood around and hung out waiting for God to repent them and convert them and force them to be holy and force them to read their bibles...? Instead of just getting on their knees and crying out to God to be saved... because they were told that they could not come to God on their own because that would be a 'work' and they were just helpless little fleas uncapable of doing anything... I am glad that I got saved long before i studied calvin, otherwise i would just be standing around waiting for God to save me...


----------



## Gabassmaster

FritzMichaels said:


> I know, I know. I have studied mr. calvin and his false teachings. We are all just robots who can do nothing ourselves unless God does it all... I wonder how many people are in heJJ now because they listened to calvins doctrines and just stood around and hung out waiting for God to repent them and convert them and force them to be holy and force them to read their bibles...? Instead of just getting on their knees and crying out to God to be saved... because they were told that they could not come to God on their own because that would be a 'work' and they were just helpless little fleas uncapable of doing anything... I am glad that I got saved long before i studied calvin, otherwise i would just be standing around waiting for God to save me...



exactly


----------



## hayseed_theology

FritzMichaels said:


> Yes, but the salvation is not genuine. if you have been genuinely saved and received the holy spirit, the spirit will not allow you to woller in sin. A saved person will desire to root out all sins and kill them. I would guess most professing Christians turn towards Christ but never address sins.
> 
> Yes, there are many people who have no desire for Christ or salvation in any way who try to clean up their lives, stop drinking, stop smoking, stop having affairs, devote time to charities, give to the poor. But they are not saved either, according to the bible.
> 
> There are lots of good moral people who rarely sin but despise Christ and are not believers. They are just as unsaved as Hitler was.



Ok, now we are gettin' somewhere.  This is where we really disagree.  I would have answered "No" to both those questions.  So our disagreement stems from what faith is, what repentance is, what sin is, the morality of the unsaved, etc.  

The Bible says that "whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."  So that person that quits getting drunk, quits cheating on his wife, and tries to treat his neighbor better is still in sin if his change in life does not proceed from faith.  There are only two options, faith in God and following sin. The Pharisees appeared to be "good, moral people," but they were self-worshippers.  They did not have faith; they had not turned from their sin.

As in my example, it is impossible to turn towards the south without turning away from the north.  It is not possible to truly turn towards Christ but not turn away from sin.  "No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other."  You cannot follow Christ and follow sin.  It is not possible to have faith - to believe that God is who he says he is, to believe who Christ is and what he has done, to believe that I am a wretched sinner in rebellion against God and deserving of judgment - and at the same time follow after sin.  Faith is an orientation toward God; repentance is a re-orientation away from sin.  Like the "Love God, and love your neighbor" example, the lost man loves himself and and his.  Loving God and his neighbor is a new direction, it is a reorientation.  "Love God and your neighbor" is, at its very basic level, saying "repent and believe."


----------



## FritzMichaels

hayseed_theology said:


> Ok, now we are gettin' somewhere.  This is where we really disagree.  I would have answered "No" to both those questions.  So our disagreement stems from what faith is, what repentance is, what sin is, the morality of the unsaved, etc.
> 
> You would have said 'no', not because the bible would say no but because in reformed theology, men are puppets and can do nothing until God pulls their strings.
> 
> I think we're on the the same page on faith and repentance but maybe not how and when they come and their necessity.
> 
> The Bible says that "whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."  So that person that quits getting drunk, quits cheating on his wife, and tries to treat his neighbor better is still in sin if his change in life does not proceed from faith.  There are only two options, faith in God and following sin. The Pharisees appeared to be "good, moral people," but they were self-worshippers.  They did not have faith; they had not turned from their sin.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> As in my example, it is impossible to turn towards the south without turning away from the north.  It is not possible to truly turn towards Christ but not turn away from sin.  "No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other."  You cannot follow Christ and follow sin.  It is not possible to have faith - to believe that God is who he says he is, to believe who Christ is and what he has done, to believe that I am a wretched sinner in rebellion against God and deserving of judgment - and at the same time follow after sin.  Faith is an orientation toward God; repentance is a re-orientation away from sin.  Like the "Love God, and love your neighbor" example, the lost man loves himself and and his.  Loving God and his neighbor is a new direction, it is a reorientation.  "Love God and your neighbor" is, at its very basic level, saying "repent and believe."



I dont know about all this orientation stuff. God said love your neighbor or go to heJJ, so i love my neighbor. He said stop sinning or go to heJJ, so i am trying to please him by not sinning. Not to be saved but because i am saved because i have faith AND repented.


----------



## hayseed_theology

FritzMichaels said:


> I know, I know. I have studied mr. calvin and his false teachings. We are all just robots who can do nothing ourselves unless God does it all... I wonder how many people are in heJJ now because they listened to calvins doctrines and just stood around and hung out waiting for God to repent them and convert them and force them to be holy and force them to read their bibles...? Instead of just getting on their knees and crying out to God to be saved... because they were told that they could not come to God on their own because that would be a 'work' and they were just helpless little fleas uncapable of doing anything... I am glad that I got saved long before i studied calvin, otherwise i would just be standing around waiting for God to save me...



That is not what Calvin says at all.  You are once again misrepresenting him, and you are confusing theological categories.  I was talking about regeneration because GABassmaster brought it up.  You, for some unknown reason, have brought election and effectual calling into the discussion.  Regeneration and effectual calling are not the same thing.  No one says to wait around for God to force you to repent and read your Bible.  Where do you get this stuff?  It's difficult to have meaningful discussion, when you keep throwing out accusations and strawman arguments.

"At the same time, he uses the term all, that every man, without exception, from the greatest to the least, may be encouraged confidently to betake himself to the goodness and mercy of God."

"God calls us all, but we resist Him by our ingratitude and malice...Jesus Christ calls all of us in general; however, it is very necessary that we come to Him."

"God then calls everyone to repentance and promises all those that return unto him, to receive them to mercy."

A few quotes from Calvin on the necessity of man's response to the gospel.

Who said that man was not responsible?  You just brought that out of nowhere.

Haha, you hate Calvin don't you?  Is that what this whole thread is about?  It's okay to say, "I disagree with him" without maliciously misrepresenting him.  Tell me about this study of Calvin that you did, which of his works did you read?


----------



## hayseed_theology

> In reformed theology, men are puppets and can do nothing until God pulls their strings.



That is yet another strawman/caricature.  This kind of stuff shows that you are not looking for meaningful discussion, and you don't care to understand the discussion.  I feel like I've wasted my time trying to reason with you.


----------



## FritzMichaels

hayseed_theology said:


> That is not what Calvin says at all.  You are once again misrepresenting him, and you are confusing theological categories.  I was talking about regeneration because GABassmaster brought it up.  You, for some unknown reason, have brought election and effectual calling into the discussion.  Regeneration and effectual calling are not the same thing.  No one says to wait around for God to force you to repent and read your Bible.  Where do you get this stuff?  It's difficult to have meaningful discussion, when you keep throwing out accusations and strawman arguments.
> 
> "At the same time, he uses the term all, that every man, without exception, from the greatest to the least, may be encouraged confidently to betake himself to the goodness and mercy of God."
> 
> "God calls us all, but we resist Him by our ingratitude and malice...Jesus Christ calls all of us in general; however, it is very necessary that we come to Him."
> 
> "God then calls everyone to repentance and promises all those that return unto him, to receive them to mercy."
> 
> A few quotes from Calvin on the necessity of man's response to the gospel.
> 
> Who said that man was not responsible?  You just brought that out of nowhere.
> 
> Haha, you hate Calvin don't you?  Is that what this whole thread is about?  It's okay to say, "I disagree with him" without maliciously misrepresenting him.  Tell me about this study of Calvin that you did, which of his works did you read?



This thread IS because of the false teaching of "Faith alone" which came from the reformers.. Its a false gospel when presented by itself. Do i hate calvin? That is funny. calvin can do me no harm because I am grounded in the bible. But calvin is still deceiving people today and will until Jesus returns unfortunately.

I have studied all kinds of works of calvin primarily "The Institues" which were really the institues of calvin's religion. anyway, thats another topic.


----------



## FritzMichaels

hayseed_theology said:


> That is yet another strawman/caricature.  This kind of stuff shows that you are not looking for meaningful discussion, and you don't care to understand the discussion.  I feel like I've wasted my time trying to reason with you.



I appreciate the discussion and have no ill feelings. I wanted to discuss faith alone to see if i was missing something. But it just keeps coming back to that if faith does not have works it is dead faith. therefore works are necessary for real faith.


----------



## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> I appreciate the discussion and have no ill feelings. I wanted to discuss faith alone to see if i was missing something. But it just keeps coming back to that if faith does not have works it is dead faith. therefore works are necessary for real faith.



I don't know man.  Proclaiming that someone is preaching a false gospel sounds like ill feelings to me.  You can't throw out all these flaming arrows and then say "good discussion" and everything is okay.  It's a very serious charge that you've levied...especially considering your misrepresentation of those you've levied the charge against.

You STILL don't see to understand the difference between works that necessarily follow genuine faith and works that justify.

What, in particular, in the Institutes did you find heretical?


----------



## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> I don't know man.  Proclaiming that someone is preaching a false gospel sounds like ill feelings to me.  You can't throw out all these flaming arrows and then say "good discussion" and everything is okay.  It's a very serious charge that you've levied...especially considering your misrepresentation of those you've levied the charge against.
> 
> You STILL don't see to understand the difference between works that necessarily follow genuine faith and works that justify.
> 
> What, in particular, in the Institutes did you find heretical?



I just dont like the faith alone gospel. It leaves out repentance and conversion and this gospel came from the reformers. Thats all i can tell you. I certainly have no ill feelings towards you people. I am sure that yall are great Christians and have your names in the book of life.

I can see the difference between works that are necessary and works cannot save. I know that faith alone presented by itself w/o repentance and works is dead. Just like James said. 

if you want to start a thread on the errors of the reformers I will be happy to discuss. But not gonna hijack this thread. I think this thread has run its course.


----------



## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> I can see the difference between works that are necessary and works cannot save. I know that faith alone presented by itself w/o repentance and works is dead. Just like James said.



So, hypothetically, if you could be convinced that repentance and faith in Christ were two different sides of the same coin, could you accept what the reformers taught about JUSTIFICATION by faith alone?

If you don't feel like answering that, you could just address Hayseed's analogy a little more thoroughly.


----------



## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> So, hypothetically, if you could be convinced that repentance and faith in Christ were two different sides of the same coin, could you accept what the reformers taught about JUSTIFICATION by faith alone?
> 
> If you don't feel like answering that, you could just address Hayseed's analogy a little more thoroughly.



I'd have to say no. Even if you showed me that i was dead wrong about repentance and faith and that they are identical... one in the same... faith alone would still be a partial truth if it is not explained to people that works will have to accompany the faith for the faith to be a saving faith. 

Again please understand i am not saying that works by themselves can save. They do not. Our works (without Christ) are filthy rags. But the must accompany the faith and repentance...  Jesus said you will know them by their fruits (works). if a person has faith and repents those are inward things and not outward. So how can we see the inward man? We cannot. God can though. So if we know them by their fruits... than their fruits will be shown outward and will be evident and can be seen...


----------



## johnnylightnin

No offense Fritz, but it is not you who does the jstifying, so the o ly thing that matters is what God sees. The faith the apostle was talking about was saving faith. That faith will always be accompanied by works. That's what Paul, Calvin, Luther, you, and I can agree on. Justification by faith alone is not about how men see Christians or professing Christians, it's about how God sees them.

Oh, I've never said faith and repentance were identical. They are two different sides of the same coin.


----------



## rjcruiser

FritzMichaels said:


> I know, I know. I have studied mr. calvin and his false teachings. We are all just robots who can do nothing ourselves unless God does it all... I wonder how many people are in heJJ now because they listened to calvins doctrines



You accuse the reformers of false teaching and lump those that agree with it in the pot as well.

Then....you say this...



FritzMichaels said:


> I certainly have no ill feelings towards you people. I am sure that yall are great Christians and have your names in the book of life.



Which is it?  Were the reformers and those who believe as they did saved or not?  Because...according to the book of Jude, apostates are not going to Heaven.



Lastly, from your argument with Hayseed on passive commands...it is obvious that you are not educated in the original text.  Don't take that the wrong way...you don't have to have MDivs, THMs or THDs to have an understanding of the Bible.  However, if you are going to try and understand the meaning of the Bible, it is important to understand the context, the author, the writing style, the sentence structure etc etc.  All of which, you threw out the window in your post above.

I really think your animosity towards Luther/Calvin and the rest of the reformers has caused you to miss the meaning of many scriptures.


----------



## FritzMichaels

rjcruiser said:


> You accuse the reformers of false teaching and lump those that agree with it in the pot as well.
> 
> I didnt lump anybody in any where. luther and calvin were heretics and if you want to follow them God bless you. The reason they taught faith alone is because their works were evil. "HEY lets burn Servetus with some green wood so he burns nice and sloooow..."  Yeh, thats REAL Christian. if my works were false teachings and burning people at the stake i would teach a gospel void of works too...
> 
> Then....you say this...
> 
> Which is it?  Were the reformers and those who believe as they did saved or not?  Because...according to the book of Jude, apostates are not going to Heaven.
> 
> I dont know if they were saved. But they know now and i'll add that calvin is paying dearly for being a murderer. Didnt God say that ALL murderers will have their reward in the lake of fire? Apostates dont go to heaven if thats what the bible says.
> 
> 
> Lastly, from your argument with Hayseed on passive commands...it is obvious that you are not educated in the original text.
> 
> Show me the original text. There is none. Every teaching you have is a translation. They are copies of copies of copies. Still the word of God but copies. There are NO original texts.
> 
> Don't take that the wrong way...you don't have to have MDivs, THMs or THDs to have an understanding of the Bible.
> 
> Oh, you insult me and then say "dont take that the wrong way"..  You are a sneaky. Apparently you are a scholar. Jesus said the 'wise and prudent' WILL be made fools.
> 
> However, if you are going to try and understand the meaning of the Bible, it is important to understand the context, the author, the writing style, the sentence structure etc etc.  All of which, you threw out the window in your post above.
> 
> I threw nothing out. What i throw out is calvin and luther and their infant baptism and their faith alone and their false teachings.
> 
> I really think your animosity towards Luther/Calvin and the rest of the reformers has caused you to miss the meaning of many scriptures.




Oh contra-ire friend. It is the following of heretics that cause people to miss the Scriptures.  I think your love for calvin causes you blindness... but HEY, we each have our own opinion, dont we?

All calvinists say that calvinism is 100% biblical, but If calvinsim is 100% biblical why is it called "calvinism"? because its not biblical. Its the teachings of a man who stole the teachings from Jerome who stole the teachings from Augustine. You are an Augustinian and you dont even realize it... or maybe you want to be associated with Augustine... I dont know and dont care actually.

I'll end the discussion adding that just like the bible says... Faith without works is dead. So "Faith Alone" (by itself) is a false gospel of the reformers.


----------



## johnnylightnin

Do you understand the difference between the Gospel and justification?  If you can't differentiate between the two, then the confusion here is understandable.


----------



## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> Do you understand the difference between the Gospel and justification?  If you can't differentiate between the two, then the confusion here is understandable.



There is no confusion on my side. I am still waiting for anyone to provide the bible verse that says we are saved by faith alone... Lets go back to the original question at hand. Please show me that verse or doctrine from the Bible. Since you cannot, i really dont have anything else to say. That was post #1 and we're now on post #130 and nobody has proven that were saved by faith "alone"...


----------



## rjcruiser

FritzMichaels said:
			
		

> I didnt lump anybody in any where.


Yes you did.  See here



FritzMichaels said:


> Except for the fact that 'faith alone' without repentance is a false gospel. and that he teaches the heresies of calvin, which got his doctrines from Jerome which got them from Augustine who was a heretic and a murderer... maybe thats where calvin got it his doctrine of murder and persecution. Its not wise to follow men who follow murderers. But HEY, you do what you want.



And here



FritzMichaels said:


> It is funny, all of you osas, calvinists, reformed theologians and faith aloners run in the same circles. The bible is clear. Faith w/o works is dead therefore it cannot possibly be true faith if it is 'alone'. I guess James was lying when he said faith MUST be accompanied by works to be true faith. Its not the works that save but its the works that prove the faith is saving faith. So you can keep on misinforming people that its 'faith alone' and deceiving yourself. Its obvious you are not interested in what God says about faith alone but only what the reformers said. i will take what Jesus and James said, long before calvin and luther or macarthur...



And here.



FritzMichaels said:


> Passive command?  This must be one of those luther teachings not found in the bible. A command is a command otherwise it would be a recommendation or a suggestion. God HIGHLY frowns upon the adding to his word...





			
				FritzMichaels said:
			
		

> luther and calvin were heretics and if you want to follow them God bless you. The reason they taught faith alone is because their works were evil. "HEY lets burn Servetus with some green wood so he burns nice and sloooow..." Yeh, thats REAL Christian. if my works were false teachings and burning people at the stake i would teach a gospel void of works too...



Wow...haven't heard that name in a while.  Funny thing is...the people who have brought that up in the past have been banned.  Hmmm....your starting to sound a bit more like a few people (or one person--BP) on here that have been banned before



			
				FritzMichaels said:
			
		

> I dont know if they were saved. But they know now and i'll add that calvin is paying dearly for being a murderer. Didnt God say that ALL murderers will have their reward in the lake of fire? Apostates dont go to heaven if thats what the bible says.


Hmmm...not sure.  If I recall....Moses murdered an Egyption....Didn't he see God?  David was a murderer.  Did he end up in Heaven?  How about Paul?  He held the garments of those who stoned Stephen.




			
				FritzMichaels said:
			
		

> Show me the original text. There is none. Every teaching you have is a translation. They are copies of copies of copies. Still the word of God but copies. There are NO original texts.


No...that is not correct.  Sure...we don't have the original copy.  But we do have the original text.  For the NT, there are manuscripts that date back to the mid second century.  Less than a hundred years after the last books of Acts were written.  And amazingly, the texts that we have from that time are almost identical to the copies that we have today.  



			
				FritzMichaels said:
			
		

> Oh, you insult me and then say "dont take that the wrong way".. You are a sneaky. Apparently you are a scholar. Jesus said the 'wise and prudent' WILL be made fools



Nope...I'm no Biblical scholar...and I don't claim to be.  It is interesting...it is as if you look down on those that have the education and discount their knowledge.  Maybe you should look to them and realize that you can learn something new?



FritzMichaels said:


> Oh contra-ire friend. It is the following of heretics that cause people to miss the Scriptures.  I think your love for calvin causes you blindness... but HEY, we each have our own opinion, dont we?
> 
> All calvinists say that calvinism is 100% biblical, but If calvinsim is 100% biblical why is it called "calvinism"? because its not biblical. Its the teachings of a man who stole the teachings from Jerome who stole the teachings from Augustine. You are an Augustinian and you dont even realize it... or maybe you want to be associated with Augustine... I dont know and dont care actually.
> 
> I'll end the discussion adding that just like the bible says... Faith without works is dead. So "Faith Alone" (by itself) is a false gospel of the reformers.



It is called Calvinism because of people after Calvin.  Just like Armenianism is called Armenianism because of people after him.  You say you've studied his institutes, but you have yet to point out anything meaningful from his writings.  All you bring up is gross mis-statements that sound very familiar to the teachings of James Knox


Sure...the Bible might not specifically say "Faith Alone" but it is implied in many verses.  Much like the Trinity.


----------



## hummerpoo

I've been away from the internet for four days, and what did I find when I returned?  Examples of patience that I believe can only be attributed to Spirtual maturity.  Very inspiring.  Thanks Johnny, Hayseed, and RJ.


----------



## FritzMichaels

Its very annoying how you insult people than go  or .
Believe what you want, friend. Like I said, faith alone when by itself is false doctrine. You could learn a thing or two from Knox but since he doesnt hold to the heresies of calvin you wont give him the time of day. Thats your loss, not mine.


----------



## rjcruiser

FritzMichaels said:


> Its very annoying how you insult people than go  or .
> Believe what you want, friend. Like I said, faith alone when by itself is false doctrine. You could learn a thing or two from Knox but since he doesnt hold to the heresies of calvin you wont give him the time of day. Thats your loss, not mine.





the emoticons are to add emotion to an emotionless internet forum.  I think they help get the point or tone of the comment across.

Okay...so maybe I'm trying to poke you a bit...as there is a little truth in every poke.  But the emoticon is to add that it is merely a light jab, not a harsh wack over the head.

As far as knox...when a person pulls things out of context as he does, I have no need to further listening to him.  I'll be honest.  It was like listening to the Ed Young clip...about 5 minutes was all I could take.



As to the subject at hand...again, justification is by faith alone.  It wouldn't be a free gift if we had to do something to obtain it.  sanctification is work.  hard hard work.  thankfully, I'm justified by the Blood of Christ and I have the Holy Spirit that helps me on my walk of sanctification.

last question...what works did the thief on the cross do?


----------



## Ronnie T

hayseed_theology said:


> Now it becomes clear.  Your problem is not with the Reformers but with the words of Scripture.  Astonishing!!! You have just called the words of an apostle a false gospel!!!
> 
> Acts 16:30-31
> 
> Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"  And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
> 
> 31They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
> 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
> 33And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.
> 
> 
> Is that the only words I speak in an evangelistic encounter?  No.  I don't just simply repeat "Believe in Jesus."  I unpack that statement.  I explain their current state.  I explain who Christ is and what he has done that they should believe on him.  I explain what true belief looks like.
> 
> You asked a simple question (a question that is asked in Scripture); I gave a simple answer (the answer that is found in Scripture).  "Believe in the Lord Jesus" is the correct answer.  If you are not satisfied with the answer of Paul and Silas, I 'm not sure what I can do for you.



Just thought I would finish up Paul's work for that night.


----------



## hummerpoo

Much has been said by men with greater ability and more training than I ever hope to have, so I doubt that my view will be very helpful.  Anyway, here's my take on James' dead faith.

2:14  What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works?  Can that faith save him?
   15  If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
   16  and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
   17  Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

He is addressing "brethren"; probably Jewish Christians, but at least believers.

His subject "says he has faith"; not a person justified before God, but one who has a said faith, and  that person "has no works"

He then poses the question, "Can that faith save him?"  The word "that" is not in the KJV but is in almost all Bilbles I have available.  I'll let others argue that question.

In vss. 16,17 James clarifies his argument with an analogy of a person who demonstrates a said mercy concluding the analogy with the rhetorical question "what use is that?" paralleling his previous question "Can that faith save him?"  Thus implying that a said faith can no more save than a said mercy can comfort.

He then rounds out the thought pointing out what should be obvious by saying "Even so faith" just like the mercy, "if it has no works" and is of the tongue only and not the heart (which is reflected in action) "is dead" doing no good for the one who holds the faith, or for anyone else because it is "by itself"; it does not have the indwelling Spirit underpinning the faith or the work.

All of Chapter 2 seems to support this view of vs. 14-17.

I have an old note beside vs. 17 in my Bible which says "Is not growing" which reminds me that faith is a living thing given to us by God.  Planting and watering take place for sure, but "God gives the increase".   If we are to grow it must be by the Spirit that we have been given (Gal. 3:3)  Depending upon our own means for growth is every bit as doomed as depending upon our own means for salvation.


----------



## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> There is no confusion on my side. I am still waiting for anyone to provide the bible verse that says we are saved by faith alone... Lets go back to the original question at hand. Please show me that verse or doctrine from the Bible. Since you cannot, i really dont have anything else to say. That was post #1 and we're now on post #130 and nobody has proven that were saved by faith "alone"...



You've been shown verses time and time again.  I asked you to produce a single verse that said we are JUSTIFIED by faith AND repentance and you could not produce one.

Why not?  It's simple, there was no need to write it because it was understood that faith in Christ and repentance from sin are two sides of the same coin (see Hayseed's analogy...again).

Paul says we are justified by faith and leaves it at that.  The word "alone" is added to clarify that Paul didn't list anything else.  What else did Paul list?  

If I'm right about faith and repentance being one act looked at from different angles, then you're just left with the text in James which humperoo explained excellently. James was responding to an idea that had taken hold that was a misunderstanding of Paul's teaching.  You are taking that misunderstanding and acting like that is what was advocated by the reformers.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

Paul, Calvin, Luther, ect would ALL gladly affirm that faith without works is dead.  Now, can faith be dead?  No.  So, faith without works is not faith at all.  Which brings up for the 1000th time there is a difference between an act that justifies and an act that necessarily follows justification.

When TRUE faith is placed in Christ, that individual is justified before God.  Someone who has been justified before God will produce fruit and do good works.  That is not to be misunderstood to mean that those works do the justifying.  The works are something that men can use to evaluate the spiritual state of a person, but God needs nothing to evaluate a man's spiritual state because he knows it perfectly (from before the foundation of the earth).

Make sense?


----------



## Ronnie T

hummerpoo said:


> Much has been said by men with greater ability and more training than I ever hope to have, so I doubt that my view will be very helpful.  Anyway, here's my take on James' dead faith.
> 
> 2:14  What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works?  Can that faith save him?
> 15  If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
> 16  and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
> 17  Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
> 
> He is addressing "brethren"; probably Jewish Christians, but at least believers.
> 
> His subject "says he has faith"; not a person justified before God, but one who has a said faith, and  that person "has no works"
> 
> He then poses the question, "Can that faith save him?"  The word "that" is not in the KJV but is in almost all Bilbles I have available.  I'll let others argue that question.
> 
> In vss. 16,17 James clarifies his argument with an analogy of a person who demonstrates a said mercy concluding the analogy with the rhetorical question "what use is that?" paralleling his previous question "Can that faith save him?"  Thus implying that a said faith can no more save than a said mercy can comfort.
> 
> He then rounds out the thought pointing out what should be obvious by saying "Even so faith" just like the mercy, "if it has no works" and is of the tongue only and not the heart (which is reflected in action) "is dead" doing no good for the one who holds the faith, or for anyone else because it is "by itself"; it does not have the indwelling Spirit underpinning the faith or the work.
> 
> All of Chapter 2 seems to support this view of vs. 14-17.
> 
> I have an old note beside vs. 17 in my Bible which says "Is not growing" which reminds me that faith is a living thing given to us by God.  Planting and watering take place for sure, but "God gives the increase".   If we are to grow it must be by the Spirit that we have been given (Gal. 3:3)  Depending upon our own means for growth is every bit as doomed as depending upon our own means for salvation.



Anyone should understood this.


----------



## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> You've been shown verses time and time again.  I asked you to produce a single verse that said we are JUSTIFIED by faith AND repentance and you could not produce one.
> 
> Why not?  It's simple, there was no need to write it because it was understood that faith in Christ and repentance from sin are two sides of the same coin (see Hayseed's analogy...again).
> 
> Paul says we are justified by faith and leaves it at that.  The word "alone" is added to clarify that Paul didn't list anything else.  What else did Paul list?
> 
> If I'm right about faith and repentance being one act looked at from different angles, then you're just left with the text in James which humperoo explained excellently. James was responding to an idea that had taken hold that was a misunderstanding of Paul's teaching.  You are taking that misunderstanding and acting like that is what was advocated by the reformers.  Nothing could be further from the truth.
> 
> Paul, Calvin, Luther, ect would ALL gladly affirm that faith without works is dead.  Now, can faith be dead?  No.  So, faith without works is not faith at all.  Which brings up for the 1000th time there is a difference between an act that justifies and an act that necessarily follows justification.
> 
> When TRUE faith is placed in Christ, that individual is justified before God.  Someone who has been justified before God will produce fruit and do good works.  That is not to be misunderstood to mean that those works do the justifying.  The works are something that men can use to evaluate the spiritual state of a person, but God needs nothing to evaluate a man's spiritual state because he knows it perfectly (from before the foundation of the earth).
> 
> Make sense?




Dont you get tired of making no sense and twisting Scripture. If not, you should surely get tired of putting luther (the apostate) and calvin (the murderer) in the same class as Paul. Using those 3 names in the same sentence should be a sin.

I have said probably 20 times works does not save anyone. BUT will be evident from someone with true faith. Therefore the works are an indicator whether or not someone is saved.

No good works, no saving faith. There may be faith there but it wont be a saving faith. No saving faith, no salvation. A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit and a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit. Works are evident in saved persons life. No they dont save in themselves. But if works are not evident, no salvation. Therefore works must be present in the life of a saved person.

There is not a verse that says faith and repentance but there is not verse that says faith alone EITHER except to PROVE that faith without works is DEAD!!!! Dead IS Dead!!!!!!

The following verses show repentance MUST occur in a person life or there will be no salvation.
Mark 1:4 Luke 3:3 Luke 24:47 Acts 2:38 Acts 3:19 Mat 4:17 Mat 9:13 Mark 1:15 Mark 2:17 Mark 6:12

Read the following verses VERY SLOWLY so that they sink in...
(James 2:20 - 28) 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?   21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?  22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?   23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.  
24 *Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. * 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?  26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, *so faith without works is dead also.*

if you read those verses very slooowly, then maybe, just naybe you can see that faith without works IS dead therefore works are necessary, not to save but to prove a "perfect faith" which saves...

Please stop with the 'two sided coin' crap. The bible could be no more clear. If works do not accompany faith, faith does not save. Do the works save? no, they prove whether the faith is saving faith or a dead faith... therefore... No Works (which prove the faith), No salvation. Plain as the nose on your face.

There are verses that say works save.  There are verses that say enduring saves. There are verses that say believing saves. There are verses that say water baptism saves. There are verses that say overcoming saves. There are verses that say repenting saves. There are verses that say obedience saves. We should heed them all, NOT just the faith verses. The people that rely on 'faith only' are the ones that are looking for that 'easy salvation'.... Say a quick 2 second prayer and WHAMMO i am saved. I dont have to witness. I dont have to read my bible. I dont have to pray. I dont have to do anything... Just say a 2 second prayer and PRESTO! I am a child of God!.


----------



## johnnylightnin

You still don't get it. Oh well, I tried. Before you criticize the reformers, it might be wise to at least make an honest attempt to understand what they wrote. You clearly do not. I fear that your misunderstanding of justification has led you to be overly critical and unbiblically judgmental regarding men your clearly not familiar with. I pray that you will make a more genuine attempt to examine the biblical basis for what they wrote.


----------



## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> You still don't get it. Oh well, I tried. Before you criticize the reformers, it might be wise to at least make an honest attempt to understand what they wrote. You clearly do not. I fear that your misunderstanding of justification has led you to be overly critical and unbiblically judgmental regarding men your clearly not familiar with. I pray that you will make a more genuine attempt to examine the biblical basis for what they wrote.




Strange you will criticize any and all man for murder but not calvin. Please explain why?


----------



## Ronnie T

Define faith from this verse.
Matthew 6:30
"But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!

And this one.......
Matthew 8:26
He said to them, "Why are you afraid, you men of little faith?" Then He got up and rebuked the winds and the sea, and it became perfectly calm.

Define faith using this verse......
1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Faith is a big ol word.
It'll take a couple of dozen books of the Bible to fully describe it.


----------



## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> Strange you will criticize any and all man for murder but not calvin. Please explain why?



1. You've neve hear me criticize anyone for murder, so take your implication that I'm a hypocrit and park it next to your copy of the Institutes.

2. I don't address your charges against the reformers because they have absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand. Go google the term "red herring". I try to keep my posts logical and spending bandwith refuting fallacious arguments does no one any good.

I'm starting to think the confusion has more to do with logic than theology.


----------



## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> 1. You've neve hear me criticize anyone for murder, so take your implication that I'm a hypocrit and park it next to your copy of the Institutes.
> 
> 2. I don't address your charges against the reformers because they have absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand. Go google the term "red herring". I try to keep my posts logical and spending bandwith refuting fallacious arguments does no one any good.
> 
> I'm starting to think the confusion has more to do with logic than theology.





BlaBlaBla... Twist some more theology. Its not wise to follow men that took other men and roasted them alive.


----------



## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> BlaBlaBla... Twist some more theology. Its not wise to follow men that took other men and roasted them alive.



You're avoiding the issues presented in the thread you started.  You'd rather ramble on about Calvin and Luther than look seriously at the DOCTRINE of justification by faith.  

If you ever have any interest in making your case well, you need to learn how to debate without using fallacious arguments.  During this discussion, you've:

1. Argument against the person (abusive): the reformers
2. Argument against the person (circumstantial): those on the forum who differ with your opinion.
3. Argument against the person (_tu quoque_): me
4. Straw man: the reformers advocated faith without works was saving faith (this was your argument and it's a straw man).
5. Red Herring: Calvin's a murderer.
6. Suppressed evidence: you park on James and ignore most of what Paul has written...don't even reply most of the time.
7. Equivocation: using justification, salvation, and the Gospel interchangeably.  They are not the same.

Those are 7 serious fallacies that are keeping you from making the case.  I hope it's that you really don't understand and not that you are being intentionally misleading regarding the reformers and the doctrine.  You've certainly misrepresented both and refused to acknowledge it when corrected.


----------



## FritzMichaels

Faith w/o works is dead faith. Do works save? No. Are works necessary to prove that there is saving faith and not dead faith? Yes. The Bible is clear. The reformers were heretics. You are only hearing what you want and chasing your tail. 

(Titus 1:16)   They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

No good works = no saving faith. Just a dead faith.


----------



## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> Faith w/o works is dead faith. Do works save? No. Are works necessary to prove that there is saving faith and not dead faith? Yes. The Bible is clear. The reformers were heretics. You are only hearing what you want and chasing your tail.



And show me where the reformers advocated faith without works as salvific.

Again, you're misrepresenting them, but you don't even seem to know it.  Ultimately, it's dishonesty.  Intentional or otherwise, you are saying they've said something they didn't.  False witness?


----------



## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> And show me where the reformers advocated faith without works as salvific.
> 
> Again, you're misrepresenting them, but you don't even seem to know it.  Ultimately, it's dishonesty.  Intentional or otherwise, you are saying they've said something they didn't.  False witness?



Why dont you just educate yourself for once.

http://www.youtube.com/refutingcalvinism#g/u
http://www.readgodsbible.org/calvinism.html
http://www.readgodsbible.org/lutheranism.html


----------



## johnnylightnin

Hahaha...fixing your misrepresentations by using other ones that are on the Internet? This is gettig comical. Surely you could show me in their own writings (in context) where they are heretical. 

I implore you, don't bear false witness against your neighbor. This is serious.


----------



## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> Hahaha...fixing your misrepresentations by using other ones that are on the Internet? This is gettig comical. Surely you could show me in their own writings (in context) where they are heretical.
> 
> I implore you, don't bear false witness against your neighbor. This is serious.



I did show you in their own writings. That info is provided in the sites that I gave you but I see that you are going to refuse education. You may want to read Hosea 4:6 and 2 Thes 2:10.

Christians are commanded to expose heretics. Just doing what I am told.

I am dumbfounded that you want to stand before Christ and explain to him that you followed the unbiblical teachings of a murderer.


----------



## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> I did show you in their own writings. That info is provided in the sites that I gave you but I see that you are going to refuse education. You may want to read Hosea 4:6 and 2 Thes 2:10.
> 
> Christians are commanded to expose heretics. Just doing what I am told.
> 
> I am dumbfounded that you want to stand before Christ and explain to him that you followed the unbiblical teachings of a murderer.



Fallacious argument after fallacious argument...that last one is called appeal to force.

Regardless, doesn't it trouble you that you're letting someone else evaluate the truth for you?  If you think that site you posted refuted any claims, you're wrong.  The first paragraph on the Calvin article is filled with so much misinformation that it's tough to digest the rest of the writing.

So, do you think you get an accurate evaluation of something when that evaluation is delivered by someone who ardently hates what it is they're evaluating?  

Have you actually read the institutes?  How about Luther's 95 theses?  Read them for yourself and make GOOD arguments where you disagree. 

What you've posted are not good arguments.  You want to read a logical refutation of Calvinism?  Read Arminius...not some lame website full of the same fallacious arguments you were already using.

Oh, and this entire side discussion you've decided to start about Calvin, Luther, ect. is also a red herring.  You've changed the subject.  I thought we were talking about justification by faith.


----------



## johnnylightnin

Also, there are multitudes of people who would no sooner say they are Calvinists than they would say they are Mormons who VEHEMENTLY affirm the doctrine of justification by faith alone along with the other 4 solas.

Another example of your fallacious argumentation: "Calvin believed in justification by faith alone.  Calvin was a murderer. If you affirm justification by faith alone, you're following a murder."  Please tell me you see how silly that is.


----------



## FritzMichaels

johnnylightnin said:


> Also, there are multitudes of people who would no sooner say they are Calvinists than they would say they are Mormons who VEHEMENTLY affirm the doctrine of justification by faith alone along with the other 4 solas.
> 
> Another example of your fallacious argumentation: "Calvin believed in justification by faith alone.  Calvin was a murderer. If you affirm justification by faith alone, you're following a murder."  Please tell me you see how silly that is.




What is silly, is believing that ANY man that has the evil heart and propensity for the actual premeditated, brutal burning alive of another Christian (just because that man disagreed with your false teaching of baptismal regeneration) is capable of giving ANY kind of truthful spiritual teaching. 

Guess what kind of fruit falls from an evil tree? Evil fruit. Burning a man alive plus numerous other murders and persecutions are evil fruit. So what produces evil fruit? An evil tree. ALL murderers have their portion in the Lake of Fire.


----------



## rjcruiser

Like I mentioned before...David was a murderer and Paul was a murderer.

I think I can follow a murderer.  

I'm done.


----------



## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> What is silly, is believing that ANY man that has the evil heart and propensity for the actual premeditated, brutal burning alive of another Christian (just because that man disagreed with your false teaching of baptismal regeneration) is capable of giving ANY kind of truthful spiritual teaching.
> 
> Guess what kind of fruit falls from an evil tree? Evil fruit. Burning a man alive plus numerous other murders and persecutions are evil fruit. So what produces evil fruit? An evil tree. ALL murderers have their portion in the Lake of Fire.





Seriously Fritz...stringing a number of fallacies together does not make a good argument.

You refuse to be intellectually honest and engage the arguments, so I have nothing else to offer.


----------



## FritzMichaels

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. - So much for calvins own salvation


----------



## vanguard1

rjcruiser said:


> Like I mentioned before...David was a murderer and Paul was a murderer.
> 
> I think I can follow a murderer.
> 
> I'm done.



they both repented and never did it again.


----------



## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
> 
> But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
> 
> and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. - So much for calvins own salvation



Ever been angry Fritz?  Ever read the book of Matthew?


----------



## FritzMichaels

So your definition of 'anger' is when somebody exposes the errors of calvin but NOT when a murderer slow roasts a brother in Christ over some wet green faggots so that he burns reeeal sloooow...??

It is my guess that cooking a fellow man over an open flame is a much better definition of 'anger' than exposing the false teachings of that man that burned the Christian.

David Koresh can kill people and he's maniac. Calvin can kill people and he's a great theologian... Spiritual deception at its finest...

So lets get back to how faith w/o works is dead.


----------



## johnnylightnin

FritzMichaels said:


> So your definition of 'anger' is when somebody exposes the errors of calvin but NOT when a murderer slow roasts a brother in Christ over some wet green faggots so that he burns reeeal sloooow...??
> 
> It is my guess that cooking a fellow man over an open flame is a much better definition of 'anger' than exposing the false teachings of that man that burned the Christian.
> 
> David Koresh can kill people and he's maniac. Calvin can kill people and he's a great theologian... Spiritual deception at its finest...
> 
> So lets get back to how faith w/o works is dead.



Take a breath man.  I didn't say you'd been angry here.  I'm just asking if you've ever been angry.  I know I have.  Thankfully my justification isn't based on my ability to keep the Law, but on Christ's.


----------



## Big7

centerpin fan said:


> I would say that it mostly comes from Martin Luther.
> 
> He added the "alone" to Romans 3:28 because, as he said himself, "Dr. Martin Luther will have it so ..."




Yep..
Martin Luther adds the word "alone" after the word "faith" in the Bible

AND.. Don't forget about THIS:

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/02/luther-added-word-alone-to-romans-328.html

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/faith_vs_works.htm#luther

About 2/3 way down you will find THIS:

Martin Luther adds the word "alone" after the word "faith" in the Bible

Someting that most Evangelicals aren't aware of is that when Luther left the church and wrote his own Bible, he added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28

Luther added an extra word to his Bible:

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith [ALONE] apart from observing the law.

Revelation 22:18-19 says:

    I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

_When challenged about this Martin Luther responded:_

    If your Papist annoys you with the word ('alone'), tell him straightway, Dr. Martin Luther will have it so:  Papist and (go see the link) are one and the same thing.  Whoever will not have my translation, let him give it the go-by: the devil's thanks to him who censures it without my will and knowledge.  Luther will have it so, and he is a doctor above all the doctors in Popedom.  (Amic. Discussion, 1, 127,'The Facts About Luther,' O'Hare, TAN Books, 1987, p. 201.)

Then  the "What does the Bible say about "works" and its role in salvation?" biz right after that..

The site home is HERE:
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/index2.htm


----------



## Big7

Where is everybody?

Thought I would have to get out the  and  ..

Good thing the Falcons game is on.

Have fun guys and gals..
Catch up with you later..


----------



## rjcruiser

Big7 said:


> Yep..
> Martin Luther adds the word "alone" after the word "faith" in the Bible
> 
> AND.. Don't forget about THIS:
> 
> http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/02/luther-added-word-alone-to-romans-328.html
> 
> http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/faith_vs_works.htm#luther
> 
> About 2/3 way down you will find THIS:
> 
> Martin Luther adds the word "alone" after the word "faith" in the Bible
> 
> Someting that most Evangelicals aren't aware of is that when Luther left the church and wrote his own Bible, he added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28
> 
> Luther added an extra word to his Bible:
> 
> "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith [ALONE] apart from observing the law.
> 
> Revelation 22:18-19 says:
> 
> I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
> 
> _When challenged about this Martin Luther responded:_
> 
> If your Papist annoys you with the word ('alone'), tell him straightway, Dr. Martin Luther will have it so:  Papist and (go see the link) are one and the same thing.  Whoever will not have my translation, let him give it the go-by: the devil's thanks to him who censures it without my will and knowledge.  Luther will have it so, and he is a doctor above all the doctors in Popedom.  (Amic. Discussion, 1, 127,'The Facts About Luther,' O'Hare, TAN Books, 1987, p. 201.)
> 
> Then  the "What does the Bible say about "works" and its role in salvation?" biz right after that..
> 
> The site home is HERE:
> http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/index2.htm





It wasn't "his" Bible.  It was "his" translation.  Adding that word to the translation does nothing but emphasize the meaning of the verse.  It doesn't change the meaning at all.

Read the verse with or without "alone" and the verse still means the same thing.  We are justified by FAITH...not WORKS.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> It wasn't "his" Bible.  It was "his" translation.  Adding that word to the translation does nothing but emphasize the meaning of the verse.  It doesn't change the meaning at all.
> 
> Read the verse with or without "alone" and the verse still means the same thing.  We are justified by FAITH...not WORKS.



And don't forget, we're also saved in child birth.


----------



## Crubear

And here I always thought it was the blood of Jesus that brings Salvation.

To get this gift, you have to ask for it.

And that once you have it, and the Holy Spirit fills you then how could you not "Do the Good Works He has prepared for you?"


----------



## FritzMichaels

Crubear said:


> And here I always thought it was the blood of Jesus that brings Salvation.
> 
> To get this gift, you have to ask for it.
> 
> And that once you have it, and the Holy Spirit fills you then how could you not "Do the Good Works He has prepared for you?"



I am not sure what you mean there, Crub Ear


----------



## Crubear

Jesus came and died to give us all salvation,
in order for us to claim that gift, we have to ask for and accept it.

Once you've accepted Jesus as savior, you are given Gifts of the Holy Spirit which you are supposed to use for God's Glory,
to do the good works God has prepared for you 

(I like the Eph 2:10 is phrased about doing good works)


----------



## FritzMichaels

Crubear said:


> Jesus came and died to give us all salvation,
> in order for us to claim that gift, we have to ask for and accept it.
> 
> Once you've accepted Jesus as savior, you are given Gifts of the Holy Spirit which you are supposed to use for God's Glory,
> to do the good works God has prepared for you
> 
> (I like the Eph 2:10 is phrased about doing good works)



Can you please provide the Scripture verse and chapter where we "accept" Jesus?
Jesus said that there were would be "many" that would seek him and not enter heaven. There would be "many" that would do great works in his name (cast out demons) yet they could not enter heaven. How come they were not allowed in heaven? They had obviously "accepted" that Christ was their Saviour, otherwise they would not have been doing works in his name...


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> And don't forget, we're also saved in child birth.


----------



## Gabassmaster

Ronnie T said:


> And don't forget, we're also saved in child birth.



op2:


----------



## Ronnie T

Clem:  Sniff, would you hand me a beer over here please?
Sniff:  Sure,.... catch.
Sniff:  Clem, are we saved by faith, works, baptism or just what.
Clem, Ughhhhhh, I don't rightly know but i do know I got to get back there a cook up another pot of meth.
Sniff:  We out already.
Clem:  Yep, sold a big batch to some kids from up state.

Clem:  Back to being saved.  I shore hope we ain't saved by works.
Sniff:  Naw, I'm perty sure it's by faith.  Course it could be because I got dunked in water when I was 12.

Sniff:  By the way, I got a little job to do tonight.  A lady is paying us $200.00 to kill her husband.  You coming with me?

Clem:  Yeah, after I get this salvation thang figgered out.


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## Crubear

Fritz, you stated it perfectly. 
Why are you looking for more clarification? Except to nit pick more?

but since you ask

Romans 10:9, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."


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## FritzMichaels

Crubear said:


> Fritz, you stated it perfectly.
> Why are you looking for more clarification? Except to nit pick more?
> 
> but since you ask
> 
> Romans 10:9, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."



not trying to nitpick, but when the church today tells the lost to just "accept" Christ that is only a partial truth like 'faith alone'... Yes, we do have to accept Christ but we also have to repent, have faith, be converted or born again... there is much more to it than acceptance. if 'acceptance' was the ONLY thing necessary for salvation, than God would not have said, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" and "lest ye repent, ye will surely perish..."


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## Ronnie T

Crubear said:


> Fritz, you stated it perfectly.
> Why are you looking for more clarification? Except to nit pick more?
> 
> but since you ask
> 
> Romans 10:9, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."



Please answer me a question.  Don't beat around the bush, just answer.

Question:  In Acts 2, after Peter preached the gospel the hearers asked a question:  "What shall we do".

Why didn't Peter say:  "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."  ?????????

Peter said:  "Repent and be baptized"

So what the difference in Romans 10???????????

And you know that both statements have to be correct.


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## Crubear

I believe that Water Baptism is a public demonstration of what I've accepted as THE truth. That Jesus is God's Son, sent to pay the price for my sins. 

If I accept Jesus, but get killed on the way to my Baptism are you saying I didn't make it?


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## Crubear

Oh, back on topic, the faith alone verse is in James 2

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.


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## Ronnie T

Crubear said:


> I believe that Water Baptism is a public demonstration of what I've accepted as THE truth. That Jesus is God's Son, sent to pay the price for my sins.
> 
> If I accept Jesus, but get killed on the way to my Baptism are you saying I didn't make it?



Which verse concerning baptism's purpose led you to believe that?


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## Crubear

Go read the "Is Baptism Required" thread. You're doing the same thing here that is going on there.

I'm no longer participating in a discussion where everyone is right/wrong. It says what it says, answer your own question in a way that helps you order your beliefs. I'll keep mine the way they are, and we'll both get to see God and let Him decide if it's really that important.


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## Big7

Footnote to Romans comment..

9... read 10 &11 for CONTEXT.. a novel idea around here in the "pick and choose verse" Baptist forum 
    for, if you confess (5 "footnotes") with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 (NAB).. Yes it's the approved
Bible for Catholics in the USA, so humor me)

5 [9-11] To confess Jesus as Lord was frequently quite hazardous in the first century (cf Matthew 10:18; 1 Thes 2:2; 1 Peter 2:18-21; 3:14). For a Jew it could mean disruption of normal familial and other social relationships, including great economic sacrifice. In the face of penalties imposed by the secular world, Christians are assured that no one who believes in Jesus will be put to shame (Romans 10:11).


Rest of Romans 10 (with footnotes)  may be found HERE:
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans10.htm

Give it a shot.. Except for the 7 Books that we don't agree on.. it is VERY easy to read and the "footnotes" contain thousands of hours of scholars work to "splain it"


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## Big7

FritzMichaels said:


> I am not sure what you mean there, Crub Ear



Might wanna try "Crubear".  Right feller' sees this and you might get in some deep doo doo ? 

REST OF YALL... Please back up to last post.. Thanks!


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## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Please answer me a question.  Don't beat around the bush, just answer.
> 
> Question:  In Acts 2, after Peter preached the gospel the hearers asked a question:  "What shall we do".
> 
> Why didn't Peter say:  "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."  ?????????
> 
> Peter said:  "Repent and be baptized"
> 
> So what the difference in Romans 10???????????
> 
> And you know that both statements have to be correct.



If someone will answer, I won't even respond to your comments.
I'd just like to see what response there is.
Thanks.


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## Big7

I'm with you Ronnie.

I was just posting a footnote on Romans for clarification of someone's earlier post..


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## christianhunter

I haven't read all of the posts,very few matter of fact.To Believe on and call on THE LORD JESUS is a work Justified by THE LORD HIMSELF.HE alone saves our wicked and evil souls,for having the Faith to do that work.The fruit of that Faith,and that work,is Eternal Salvation.When we no longer sin,we can talk about good works then.Faith alone,puts us in The Hands of THE FATHER.I really don't see how this can be argued.


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## FritzMichaels

christianhunter said:


> Faith alone,puts us in The Hands of THE FATHER.



Faith "alone", without godly sorrow, repentance and conversion will put you in the hands of the devil.

The bible says to believe, have faith, have godly sorrow, to repent and to be converted... Why people would want to just pick one of those commands instead of doing them all is mindblowing...  

there are 3 types of faith in the bible (saving, satanic and dead).. Only saving faith includes, godly sorrow, repentance and conversion...  oh, and 'works' are a byproduct of saving faith.

but HEY! Merry Christmas, anyway!


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## Gabassmaster

FritzMichaels said:


> Faith "alone", without godly sorrow, repentance and conversion will put you in the hands of the devil.
> 
> The bible says to believe, have faith, have godly sorrow, to repent and to be converted... Why people would want to just pick one of those commands instead of doing them all is mindblowing...  but HEY! Merry Christmas, anyway!



right Fritz idk if anyone is gonna argue with me over this but to me its the Lords GRACE ALONE  if you understand where im coming from with that?


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## christianhunter

FritzMichaels said:


> Faith "alone", without godly sorrow, repentance and conversion will put you in the hands of the devil.
> 
> The bible says to believe, have faith, have godly sorrow, to repent and to be converted... Why people would want to just pick one of those commands instead of doing them all is mindblowing...
> 
> there are 3 types of faith in the bible (saving, satanic and dead).. Only saving faith includes, godly sorrow, repentance and conversion...  oh, and 'works' are a byproduct of saving faith.
> 
> but HEY! Merry Christmas, anyway!



To Believe on,and call on THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.Is admitting you are a sinner.It requires conversion,it requires godly sorrow,and repentance.Is faith such a loose and watered down word to you,that you don't know what it means?
Works will get you into trouble,whether you are a Believer or think you are.THE LORD tells us (paraphrased),"None are righteous,no not one."
If we see your works,when you are having a "bad day"in the flesh.Would we assume you were unsaved because of your behavior?It could be assumed of me or any of you,if a stranger,saw us pitching a fit on a bad day.None of us are righteous on our own merit.THE Blood of our LORD JESUS,cleanses us from all unrighteousness,that is what makes us righteous before THE FATHER."We are saved by Faith,through Grace,not of works lest any man should boast".I'm starting to wonder,how many of the works people are boasting?


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## rjcruiser

christianhunter said:


> To Believe on,and call on THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.Is admitting you are a sinner.It requires conversion,it requires godly sorrow,and repentance.Is faith such a loose and watered down word to you,that you don't know what it means?
> Works will get you into trouble,whether you are a Believer or think you are.THE LORD tells us (paraphrased),"None are righteous,no not one."
> If we see your works,when you are having a "bad day"in the flesh.Would we assume you were unsaved because of your behavior?It could be assumed of me or any of you,if a stranger,saw us pitching a fit on a bad day.None of us are righteous on our own merit.THE Blood of our LORD JESUS,cleanses us from all unrighteousness,that is what makes us righteous before THE FATHER."We are saved by Faith,through Grace,not of works lest any man should boast".I'm starting to wonder,how many of the works people are boasting?



CH....

deep breath.  deep breath.  deep breath.

there's been a myriad of posts trying to convince fritz that he's got the cart before the horse on this one.  Don't worry if you can't get him to switch it around.


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## FritzMichaels

christianhunter said:


> To Believe on,and call on THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.Is admitting you are a sinner.It requires conversion,it requires godly sorrow,and repentance.Is faith such a loose and watered down word to you,that you don't know what it means?
> Works will get you into trouble,whether you are a Believer or think you are.THE LORD tells us (paraphrased),"None are righteous,no not one."
> If we see your works,when you are having a "bad day"in the flesh.Would we assume you were unsaved because of your behavior?It could be assumed of me or any of you,if a stranger,saw us pitching a fit on a bad day.None of us are righteous on our own merit.THE Blood of our LORD JESUS,cleanses us from all unrighteousness,that is what makes us righteous before THE FATHER."We are saved by Faith,through Grace,not of works lest any man should boast".I'm starting to wonder,how many of the works people are boasting?



pure hogwash.

works will get you into trouble?? read your bible and see what God has to say about works.


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## christianhunter

rjcruiser said:


> CH....
> 
> deep breath.  deep breath.  deep breath.
> 
> there's been a myriad of posts trying to convince fritz that he's got the cart before the horse on this one.  Don't worry if you can't get him to switch it around.



Strange thing about it,Peter and Paul argued about this 2,000 years ago.For the life of me,I cannot understand Scripture,and THE FINISHED WORK of THE LORD,still being twisted.


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## FritzMichaels

christianhunter said:


> Strange thing about it,Peter and Paul argued about this 2,000 years ago.For the life of me,I cannot understand Scripture,and THE FINISHED WORK of THE LORD,still being twisted.



Whats twisted is a belief that good works are bad. But thats obviously what your church teaches. The bible knows nothing of 'bad' good works.

(Revelation 20:12-13) 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.    13   And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and heJJ delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

you will be judged by your works. so you go on thinking doing good works are bad... that is twisted.  but HEY, you believe what you want...


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## christianhunter

FritzMichaels said:


> pure hogwash.
> 
> works will get you into trouble?? read your bible and see what God has to say about works.



Hog wash...very Brotherly of you to start with.One of my last quotes was what THE LORD thinks of works.If you think you are helping THE LORD save your soul with your works,you are misled,plain and simple.Take the Mormons,they are "working" their way straight to He11.You are putting too much emphasis on works.Works will follow you when you are saved,and in obedience with THE LORD.


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## FritzMichaels

You were created for good works but i never said that salvation comes thru a persons good works.

(Ephesians 2:10)
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

so good works will get you in trouble huh??? unbelievable.

if a mormon goes to heJJ its not because of his works, its because of satanic doctrine.


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## christianhunter

FritzMichaels said:


> Whats twisted is a belief that good works are bad. But thats obviously what your church teaches. The bible knows nothing of 'bad' good works.
> 
> (Revelation 20:12-13) 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.    13   And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and heJJ delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
> 
> you will be judged by your works. so you go on thinking doing good works are bad... that is twisted.  but HEY, you believe what you want...



Let me ask you.
What is so good about you that seperates you from any of us?
Do you lust,have bad thoughts,get angry,the list goes on?
"We are saved by Grace,through Faith,not of Works lest any man should boast."
It is a fact we will be Judged by our works.Just what are your works,that seperates you from the rest of us?


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## FritzMichaels

Sorry friend, i am not gonna play into your little scheme. I know my works and faith and so does God. Thats all that matters. What you think doesnt mean squat.


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## rjcruiser

christianhunter said:


> Do you lust,have bad thoughts,get angry,the list goes on?



I can vouch for the fact that he's gotten angry



Just put some emoticons and some smart comments in these threads and you'll see


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## christianhunter

FritzMichaels said:


> Sorry friend, i am not gonna play into your little scheme. I know my works and faith and so does God. Thats all that matters. What you think doesnt mean squat.



I could say what you think doesn't mean squat,but I'm remaining nice.What is there to get angry about?
One of us is misled,and I do not believe it to be me.Our works are important,but not for our Salvation,or the loss of it.You asked the question,and it appears you have been answered many times with Scripture to back it up.Would you also like to know that THE LORD thinks of our works as "Filthy Rags"when we put our works,before HIS Grace.


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## FritzMichaels

christianhunter said:


> I could say what you think doesn't mean squat,but I'm remaining nice.What is there to get angry about?
> One of us is misled,and I do not believe it to be me.Our works are important,but not for our Salvation,or the loss of it.You asked the question,and it appears you have been answered many times with Scripture to back it up.Would you also like to know that THE LORD thinks of our works as "Filthy Rags"when we put our works,before HIS Grace.



Squat.


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## christianhunter

FritzMichaels said:


> Squat.



Really?
Why?


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## Big7

FritzMichaels said:


> Squat.





christianhunter said:


> Really?
> Why?




 and


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## Big7

FritzMichaels said:


> pure hogwash.
> 
> works will get you into trouble?? read your bible and see what God has to say about works.



True Dat'


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## Ronnie T

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

We are all workers in God's kingdom.
It's a part of our lives.
It doesn't subtract from God's grace, and we cannot ignore it.


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## 1gr8bldr

rjcruiser said:


> Like I mentioned before...David was a murderer and Paul was a murderer.
> 
> I think I can follow a murderer.
> 
> I'm done.


Many times I have heard that Paul was a murderer. Actually, he casted his vote in favor of a killing and he held the coats on another occassion while another murder took place. I myself don't call him a murderer but I can see why some do.


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## 1gr8bldr

Don't rebuild what you have destroyed????


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## rjcruiser

1gr8bldr said:


> Many times I have heard that Paul was a murderer. Actually, he casted his vote in favor of a killing and he held the coats on another occassion while another murder took place. I myself don't call him a murderer but I can see why some do.



I guess we'll disagree then.  He held the coats of those that stoned Stephen.  He was slick....smart....knew that if he only held the coats, he could say he didn't throw any stones.  He was an accomplice.  Like someone who drove the get away car...didn't rob the bank, but is still called a bank robber.

Thank goodness God gives forgiveness for even the vilest offenders.  Thank goodness I don't have to try and earn that forgiveness.


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## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> I guess we'll disagree then.  He held the coats of those that stoned Stephen.  He was slick....smart....knew that if he only held the coats, he could say he didn't throw any stones.  He was an accomplice.  Like someone who drove the get away car...didn't rob the bank, but is still called a bank robber.
> 
> Thank goodness God gives forgiveness for even the vilest offenders.  Thank goodness I don't have to try and earn that forgiveness.



We might often try to earn forgiveness.  Out of love for God.  Out of our realization of what God has done for us.
But forgiveness cannot be earned.  Especially from God.
We'll never do enough.  We'll always come up short.
All we can do is be a disciple, repent of our wrongs, and ask for forgiveness.  Then move on.
I've done it a bunch of times.


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