# The measure of success



## welderguy (Jul 3, 2016)

What is the true measure of success in life?
Is it money? Is it fame? Is it influence or power?
Or is it something else for you?

Solomon had all these things in great abundance,but were they the measure of success for him?

I'm interested in what everyone's opinions are on this,and I'm particularly interested in what God's word says about it.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 3, 2016)

welderguy said:


> What is the true measure of success in life?
> Is it money? Is it fame? Is it influence or power?
> Or is it something else for you?
> 
> ...



Reactively, not carefully considered — ultimate success, spiritually speaking, is, from man's perspective, inductively determined.  I have yet to complete the data required to make that determination.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 3, 2016)

welderguy said:


> What is the true measure of success in life?
> Is it money? Is it fame? Is it influence or power?
> Or is it something else for you?
> 
> ...




If I understand correctly scripture relates that Solomon asked God for the knowledge of good and evil in regards to being the ruler of God's great people. Solomon had inherited the kingdom from this father David, and compared himself to a child when it came to managing the affairs of state. So success for Solomon was to know good and evil in order to be an effective King of God's people. God granted this strange request to Solomon and scripture states that he is the only individual in all history that it was granted to.

What I personally find interesting is that Solomon basically asked for the knowledge of good and evil and God granted it as a blessing. It was never granted as a blessing before Solomon, nor has it been granted since. It was a curse to all except Solomon and still is a curse to all today.

 Also Solomon did not ask this for his personal gain, but to be a servant of the Lord and a just ruler of the Lord's people. In other words Solomon's motives for success were that it would not reward him, but that it would reward the people according to God's designs for them. And God went for it. Which is a bit strange...from where I sit today that for what was for all time a curse to all was for Solomon a blessing.


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## Israel (Jul 3, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> If I understand correctly scripture relates that Solomon asked God for the knowledge of good and evil in regards to being the ruler of God's great people. Solomon had inherited the kingdom from this father David, and compared himself to a child when it came to managing the affairs of state. So success for Solomon was to know good and evil in order to be an effective King of God's people. God granted this strange request to Solomon and scripture states that he is the only individual in all history that it was granted to.
> 
> What I personally find interesting is that Solomon basically asked for the knowledge of good and evil and God granted it as a blessing. It was never granted as a blessing before Solomon, nor has it been granted since. It was a curse to all except Solomon and still is a curse to all today.
> 
> Also Solomon did not ask this for his personal gain, but to be a servant of the Lord and a just ruler of the Lord's people. In other words Solomon's motives for success were that it would not reward him, but that it would reward the people according to God's designs for them.



Yikes! Not to hijack this thread, or try a blend.
But, as I said I walked into my wife watching this show..."Alone". She hadn't seen me in a while and she said, this is really good. So, I watched some.
Anyway...in obverse of what you wrote, this guy is talking about talking to his wife before he set out to do this. She asked him "What are you afraid of?" He said "failure". She said..."What does failure mean to you, here?"
He was taken aback, he said. "I had never been forced to quantify what failure meant". 
So, when you write "what is the measure of success..." It also came to me, I had been thinking about that this am, having been struck by that guys being forced to confront what failure looked like to him.
This is what I thought as I pulled my socks on at 7 this morning "well done, good and faithful servant"...
But even as I thought about that, I knew it was something too high for me...a something so high...it would be the most severe test to not surrender to the temptation to make it up. The wanting of it, I saw, could so easily become the imagining of it...and that would be a severe failure (to me). How then, can a man, maybe, like me...keep from imagining the thing, the only thing that is of such desire, but whose truth could only be sullied if he reached for it?
Then I remembered. I have heard it! It is true! It is said to a man! I am not making this up!
Jesus.
Sweet Jesus! True!
That a man like me...could be happy to see all the laurels...where they rightly belong! That's...a miracle!
For a man like me.


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## welderguy (Jul 3, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Reactively, not carefully considered — ultimate success, spiritually speaking, is, from man's perspective, inductively determined.  I have yet to complete the data required to make that determination.



I agree,it is inductive from man's perspective if all he sees is what he's done or not done.

 I'm reminded of Luke 12:15

" And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth."


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## hummerpoo (Jul 3, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I agree,it is inductive from man's perspective if all he sees is what he's done or not done.
> 
> I'm reminded of Luke 12:15
> 
> " And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth."



And if a man is brought to see that God has done and will do all, all is success.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 3, 2016)

welderguy said:


> What is the true measure of success in life?
> Is it money? Is it fame? Is it influence or power?
> Or is it something else for you?
> 
> ...



Is this tread about what was Solomon's measure of success for himself as stated in scripture and what we might think of this, or is it about the measure of individual success in general and what scripture says and what we think? I'm not sure I interpreted the query correctly considering hummer's and your feedback responses compared to mine.

???


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## welderguy (Jul 3, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Is this tread about what was Solomon's measure of success for himself as stated in scripture and what we might think of this, or is it about the measure of individual success in general and what scripture says and what we think? I'm not sure I interpreted the query correctly considering hummer's and your feedback responses compared to mine.
> 
> ???



I was just basicly wanting to know how you defined success in your life.

I was using Solomon as an example of a person who persued many different interests in life and, at the end, said it was all vanity.By the world's standards,he would be viewed as very successful.But,scripture has a different view of it.Don't you think?

I know we need to work hard.And I know we are to use what talents we have been given for the glory of God.
But sometimes I believe we can do these things in excess,seeking success, and forget the most important things in life.


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## welderguy (Jul 3, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> And if a man is brought to see that God has done and will do all, all is success.



I believe you nailed it.

Sometimes I get to feeling like the one talent guy and wonder if I've buried my talent or if I'm just not being content with what God has given me.My lack of success by the world's standards gets in my head sometimes and I forget what God's word says like in 1 Cor.1:26-29

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

and James 2:5

5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?


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## gordon 2 (Jul 3, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I was just basicly wanting to know how you defined success in your life.
> 
> I was using Solomon as an example of a person who persued many different interests in life and, at the end, said it was all vanity.By the world's standards,he would be viewed as very successful.But,scripture has a different view of it.Don't you think?
> 
> ...



Ok. I get it now. Yes...  To encounter God in one's life is probably the indicative of life as successful in my view right now. 

Everything else is a pale reflection of success be it come by with excess or humbly.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 3, 2016)

My desire is to live happy, and when I die leave no doubt to my family and friends that I was a man that loves the Lord. 
 That is my goal for success.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 4, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I believe you nailed it.
> 
> Sometimes I get to feeling like the one talent guy and wonder if I've buried my talent or if I'm just not being content with what God has given me.My lack of success by the world's standards gets in my head sometimes and I forget what God's word says like in 1 Cor.1:26-29
> 
> ...



Yes, those verses rise in my thoughts often.  Another passage is from Paul’s letter to the Philippians; while, among his churches, probably his least successful church in worldly terms (small in number, little money or possessions), but certainly the most generous, seemingly the most faithful, and likely his most beloved (Phi 4:4-23 —I think NASB or ESV gives the sense better than the KJV).


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## welderguy (Jul 4, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Yes, those verses rise in my thoughts often.  Another passage is from Paul’s letter to the Philippians; while, among his churches, probably his least successful church in worldly terms (small in number, little money or possessions), but certainly the most generous, seemingly the most faithful, and likely his most beloved (Phi 4:4-23 —I think NASB or ESV gives the sense better than the KJV).



I think sometimes it's a blessing when we are made to see how weak and beggarly we really are,because it is then that we can see more clearly how strong and mighty our God is.
I love Isaiah 40 in regards to that.
" Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing."


I especially take comfort in this part:

" He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:
 But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."


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## gordon 2 (Jul 4, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I think sometimes it's a blessing when we are made to see how weak and beggarly we really are,because it is then that we can see more clearly how strong and mighty our God is.
> I love Isaiah 40 in regards to that.
> " Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing."
> 
> ...



It occurs just now as I read the responses that individual success can be listed by age group preoccupations. Success for the 35-45 age groups will not be the same as for the 50-60 age group, or the 60-90 age group.


" But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; " most likely applies to all age groups definitions of success.

For example while a 70 yr old might be counting his life blessings in hindsight, a 35 yr old parent with 4 young kids and recently separated might just be wondering if blessings and success are fictitious. 

It is usually the task of the 50 yr olds, after they have raised their kids, to redirect their nurture to the greater community. Their ability to do so in comparison to what others do and what needs are out there might just bring about questions on success, in hindsight, in the present and in what the future might hold. 

So issues of success are not unique to spiritually oriented people, they are universal to all people.  And what is success for one age group should not be generally expected as success for another.

Perhaps...

Add to this how different faith traditions build upon and inform the individual's faith and success differs again.

To " Wait upon the Lord" means different things to different Christians... and to each  a differing measure of success.


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## Israel (Jul 4, 2016)

To see the Lord's success, today. The goodness of God, in the land of the living.


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## formula1 (Jul 5, 2016)

*re:*

To have failed and still won is the paradox of the Gospel!  Success is measured in the Kingdom not as whosoever has but rather whosoever will!


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## gordon 2 (Jul 5, 2016)

they will be called children of God
they will see God
they will be shown mercy

 they will be satisfied
 they will inherit the land
 they will be comforted


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## gemcgrew (Jul 5, 2016)

Any measurement of success, within the relationship that exist between created objects, is flawed. No created object is more or less successful than another.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 5, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Any measurement of success, within the relationship that exist between created objects, is flawed. No created object is more or less successful than another.



Hindu philosophy?  Wayne Dyer? The over reach of ideas?


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## welderguy (Jul 5, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Any measurement of success, within the relationship that exist between created objects, is flawed. No created object is more or less successful than another.



If we are talking about eternal success,then I fully agree.Jesus secured that for us.

But,is it possible for a child of God to make shipwreck of his faith in this temporal life?
The text in Heb.4:1 makes me wonder about this,if maybe I'm falling short.(in this life)

 "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should come short of it."


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## gemcgrew (Jul 5, 2016)

welderguy said:


> If we are talking about eternal success,then I fully agree.Jesus secured that for us.
> 
> But,is it possible for a child of God to make shipwreck of his faith in this temporal life?
> The text in Heb.4:1 makes me wonder about this,if maybe I'm falling short.(in this life)
> ...


Jesus is the life of a child of God. He is the author and finisher of faith.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 5, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Hindu philosophy?  Wayne Dyer? The over reach of ideas?


Christian philosophy.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 5, 2016)

welderguy said:


> If we are talking about eternal success,then I fully agree.Jesus secured that for us.
> 
> But,is it possible for a child of God to make shipwreck of his faith in this temporal life?
> The text in Heb.4:1 makes me wonder about this,if maybe I'm falling short.(in this life)
> ...



Paul was saying that it is possible to know the Good News, to know the words of it, and a whole lot of things said bout them, and not mix it with faith. 

 "... the message they heard did not benefit them because it was not mixed with faith"... 

So the message one hears regards a calling for example which is mixed with faith must lead to success. Perhaps.

So for me, and I might be wrong on this, Christianity is not a religion of ideas, it is a religion of experiences. Faith demands contacts in experience or existence. Ideas ( Idiology) can be simple enjoyment-entertainment for its own sake as a probe to or a quest for the complete "systems" real and imagined-- spiritual systems and others... It can also be a cause to those who have reason (s) to be obsessive. Or in other words is God present creatively in the world with us now or are we still forming our ideas on it because we are uncertain?


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## welderguy (Jul 5, 2016)

In my estimation,Joshua and Caleb had a much better outcome than those Israelites that died in the wilderness.Moses also.

I still believe Moses went to heaven based on Hebrews 11.But he was not permitted to enter the land of promise.(a picture of rest in this life on earth)


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## hobbs27 (Jul 5, 2016)

welderguy said:


> In my estimation,Joshua and Caleb had a much better outcome than those Israelites that died in the wilderness.Moses also.
> 
> I still believe Moses went to heaven based on Hebrews 11.But he was not permitted to enter the land of promise.(a picture of rest in this life on earth)



Couldn't have. No man had been to heaven but the Son of man which came down from heaven.


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## welderguy (Jul 5, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Could'nt have. No man had been to heaven but the Son of man which came down from heaven.



For the sake of avoiding a derail of my point,let's say "Moses was still going to go to heaven".better?


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## centerpin fan (Jul 5, 2016)

welderguy said:


> What is the true measure of success in life?





hobbs27 said:


> My desire is to live happy, and when I die leave no doubt to my family and friends that I was a man that loves the Lord.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 5, 2016)

welderguy said:


> What is the true measure of success in life?
> Is it money? Is it fame? Is it influence or power?
> Or is it something else for you?
> 
> ...



To me success would be lying on my death bed knowing that I have given my best for Christ; that I left nothing on the table.


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## JimD (Jul 5, 2016)

Thoreau's definition of success covers it pretty well; "If you advance confidently in the direction of your own dreams, and endeavor to live the life which you have imagined, you will meet with a success unexpected in common hours."


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## gordon 2 (Jul 5, 2016)

JimD said:


> Thoreau's definition of success covers it pretty well; "If you advance confidently in the direction of your own dreams, and endeavor to live the life which you have imagined, you will meet with a success unexpected in common hours."



Very interesting. I wonder how Thoreau came up with the definition. It is somewhat similar to Joseph Campbell's " follow your bliss".

In Christian lingo I could perhaps say, " Attend to your calling." Or,  [If you advance confidently in faith, and endeavor to live the life which you have been appointed to, you will meet with a success unexpected in common hours."]


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## Israel (Jul 6, 2016)

That a man might succeed and not know it, till he is told he has.

"When did we see you hungry...naked...sick?"

But that also a man might know it, when he sees it.

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

The man that said that was often given to "expand" (may we all) even in mid sentence. Revise. 

nevertheless, I live, yet not I...

but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

But now, after you have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn you again to the weak and beggarly elements


To be expanded, to be corrected in vision, to be made such, that even in the instance a thing is said, to know, it must make way for the eternal Word...


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## gemcgrew (Jul 6, 2016)

Israel said:


> That a man might succeed and not know it, till he is told he has.
> 
> "When did we see you hungry...naked...sick?"
> 
> ...


Amen.

The accomplishment or success of a believer is only found outside of his experience. Our greatest success, whatever it may be, determined by human standards, must be sanctified by Christ in order to be made acceptable. 

We are conditioned to think of success only in connection with ourselves. It can only be found in connection with a Substitute.

By the faith of Another.


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## welderguy (Jul 6, 2016)

So, I think it's safe to say that the measure of success for a man's life really cannot be determined until the end.And that determination is based on whether Jesus finished a work of faith in him.

Paul said "I have finished my course,I have fought a good fight"

He also said "He that hath begun a good work in me shall perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"

Paul was once a church persecuter.But that wasn't the end.

The thief on the cross received a very successful end also.

(I think that's what Hummer was trying to tell me when he said we don't have all the data yet.)


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## gordon 2 (Jul 6, 2016)

welderguy said:


> So, I think it's safe to say that the measure of success for a man's life really cannot be determined until the end.And that determination is based on whether Jesus finished a work of faith in him.
> 
> Paul said "I have finished my course,I have fought a good fight"
> 
> ...



  Paul said all those things before his end. And the end can be anytime... as in 2 mins. or 60 yrs. I think what Paul says here is that he lived his faith fully and that he would live his faith to the end.

Quote[ "He that hath begun a good work in me shall perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"] end quote

There was for Paul no issue that his faith was forever due and with Jesus Christ. So success in his case was a life of faith-- it is a life of being a born again man and not so much what one accomplishes... Maybe... It is a life of being from which doing follows and not so much a life of doing to be.

What the future holds in relationship with the world is unknown.
What the future holds for the faithful is known.


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## Israel (Jul 7, 2016)

If, in any way our life is related in Christ, to both those present, whom we know in part, and those gone before, who, though only known in part we perceive an end, the consistency of experience and revelation, (what one might call mere idea, as has surely been relegated to no more than such by many) compels investigation.

In some way, do we not enquire "Is such and such merely speaking the fluff of...what?...doctrine off a page...the musings of an undisciplined mind...the undeveloped (or underdeveloped) truth of a thing not yet brought to a "relatable" fruition so that it might be spoken among men to the glory of God...and for the benefit of others. 
Though seeing "in part", knowing "in part", understanding "in part" may seem a curious limit from which a man is told to speak, we yet believe the Spirit of faith that is given us, not only allows, but in some ways compels us to speak. 
We trust the experience of Christ to be ours, for such who have set their hearts, or have had their hearts set (here I seek no contention) upon Jesus as Lord, we are refused confidence in anything but Him, and His word. For reasons over which we may still find a point to contend (or many, God knows)...we trust of such consistency. Jesus Christ _is shown_ amongst all who believe as inseparable from His word. He is, for us, the pure revelation of consistency in thought, word, and deed. Mind squarely fixed upon His Father, our God, (being of like Spirit), words only that come from such a relationship, and works manifest that attest to that relationship as obedient Son. And our faith in this is founded upon the bedrock of truth that the world cannot receive, the resurrection of Him, out from the dead.
We probe one another, it seems, with whatever we  believe to have of truth, asking "Can you yet be wounded?" knowing that if one can, such of a man (his word, his testimony, his thoughts) show, they have not yet passed through death...to everlasting (an un-woundable) life. And sometimes we may discover, it is our own probe that is weak, yet alive to earth, and from it, that is then broken, that must make way.


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## welderguy (Jul 7, 2016)

Look at this text:

Heb.11:35
"Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:"

What is this better resurrection spoken of here?
We know the context is "through faith".
But what is it better than?..One with no faith?
Thoughts?


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## hummerpoo (Jul 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Look at this text:
> 
> Heb.11:35
> "Women received their dead raised to life again:[Probably the resurrections performed through Elijah and Elisha]
> ...





> What is this better resurrection spoken of here?


Resurrection to eternity in the presence of Almighty God.



> We know the context is "through faith".
> But what is it better than?..One with no faith?


It's better than freedom from the condemnation of the world.




> Thoughts?


Them's mine.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Look at this text:
> 
> Heb.11:35
> "Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:"
> ...


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## gordon 2 (Jul 7, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Resurrection to eternity in the presence of Almighty God.
> 
> 
> It still seems to me that the way you use eternity is a greek idea of life after death, but is it really what first Christians understood eternity to be?
> ...


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## hobbs27 (Jul 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Look at this text:
> 
> Heb.11:35
> "Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:"
> ...



There had been physical resurrections in the past..children brought back from the dead..but this one hope in the spiritual resurrection the hope of Israel was going to be better than those.
 And, it would be obtained by faith..resurrection is salvation.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 7, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> hummerpoo said:
> 
> 
> > Resurrection to eternity in the presence of Almighty God.
> ...


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 7, 2016)

I think God does exist outside of his own creation.


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## welderguy (Jul 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> There had been physical resurrections in the past..children brought back from the dead..but this one hope in the spiritual resurrection the hope of Israel was going to be better than those.
> And, it would be obtained by faith..resurrection is salvation.



These people already possessed faith(that's the context)
So,if they had faith,that tells me they were born again(spiritually resurrected).

Based on this,I believe it's speaking of a different resurrection.One that is superior like the first one here:

John 5:29

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of dam nation.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> These people already possessed faith(that's the context)
> So,if they had faith,that tells me they were born again(spiritually resurrected).
> 
> Based on this,I believe it's speaking of a different resurrection.One that is superior like the first one here:
> ...





This is kind of vague don't you thing...  This could be understood at least in two ways...  1. a resurrection of  life; that is a resurrection due faith via grace and a resurrection unto wrath (dam nation) which is not new or not new news.

2. a resurrection to life ; a resurrection of all the elements of each individual ( physical and spiritual) and to a place without hope of victory ever ( dam nation)  and this could be an eternal timeless place-state?

Which is it? Why?


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## hobbs27 (Jul 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> These people already possessed faith(that's the context)
> So,if they had faith,that tells me they were born again(spiritually resurrected).
> 
> Based on this,I believe it's speaking of a different resurrection.One that is superior like the first one here:
> ...



They possessed faith, just as the old testament saints, but they didn't posses the better resurrection yet. It was just on the horizon, just out of their reach but they had the promise of it and could almost taste it, (my emphasis)

There were at least two women who received their dead  to life again 1Kings 17:17-24 & 2Kings 4:18-37.

 This would answer the context of (women received their dead to life again)  Agree?

Then in opposition to verse 34 about many escaping the sword, vs 35 indicates that God did not always choose to save the faithful..many died of their torture, but even they died in faith; they thought as Job who said, " Though  He slay me , yet will I trust Him" and the three Hebrew children who said that even if God didn't deliver them, they would still serve Him.

 So how can you read this verse about Old Testament saints enduring torture for their faith and NOT see the relevance of it for the Hebrews to whom the author was writing in the first century time of severe persecution?

 So the question remains A better resurrection than what resurrection? The answer of course is " the biological/temporal one that the sons of these women experienced." And what would be better than that? Logically the opposite of physical , namely a spiritual one , one in which the reconciliation of fellowship to their creator in the "Heavenly Country" is enjoyed..v16.

The old testament saints died in the hope of resurrection....ie. redemption/salvation. We live and experience redemption/salvation. I have a testimony of it. I will die physically in the knowledge of my eternity. They died to sleep till Jesus redeemed man by the cross.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 7, 2016)

Just one more point in light of this. The recognition of past physical resurrections is proof that it was not Christ's physical resurrection in which He became the first to rise.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 7, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think God does exist outside of his own creation.



As do I.  That's the problem with eternity defined in time; it circumscribes God in His creation.


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## welderguy (Jul 8, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Just one more point in light of this. The recognition of past physical resurrections is proof that it was not Christ's physical resurrection in which He became the first to rise.



The longtime disagreement you and I have about the what and when of spiritual resurrection causes a roadblock to our further discussion of this subject.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 8, 2016)

welderguy said:


> The longtime disagreement you and I have about the what and when of spiritual resurrection causes a roadblock to our further discussion of this subject.



One day the truth in scripture is going to bust thru that man made roadblock...maybe


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## welderguy (Jul 8, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> One day the truth in scripture is going to bust thru that man made roadblock...maybe



One of us is definately wrong and we need wisdom.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jul 8, 2016)

welderguy said:


> What is the true measure of success in life?
> Is it money? Is it fame? Is it influence or power?
> Or is it something else for you?
> 
> ...



I life well lived with integrity and character founded in the Fear of the Lord and an offspring that grew to be men or women of the same based on your teaching and sharing the Fear of the Lord and all of the teachings of Proverbs with them.  

That would be a fine measure of success.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 9, 2016)

welderguy said:


> One of us is definately wrong and we need wisdom.



.....


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## Israel (Jul 10, 2016)

The thing is this, for me, hinted at in another thread. I can go along feeling fine, thinking I'm OK, in whatever measure "OK" means at the time, feeling as I might describe (if we can describe anything of this life), "like I am (sorta) keeping step".
Then "it" happens. And when "it" happens, I cannot deny it. It may not be a visible thing, and usually isn't...in the sense that an observer might say "Oh, you are having a thing of "it" because of what you did before...or said before..., huh?" 

No, it is not that at all, though "in myself" I may think I see a trigger. If you have experienced it you will know it, if you haven't, there's no sufficient way to describe it. But, nevertheless, I will at best speak of "my end" of the experience. It is like "all" my pride comes up before me, a huge stinking ball of, no, mushroom cloud, that shakes me, as best I can describe...to my core. I use quotes around the "all" for I believe now it is presumptuous of me to think I see it "all". But whatever I see of it...breaks me inside like a twig. 

I am surrounded by words I spoke casually, vainly, roughly, grossly, unkindly, things done thoughtlessly, attitudes and dispositions "I thought it was OK for me to have". They surround me, so it is as though I see nothing else...and impending consequences to such. No, no thought of "going to h3ll" even enters...for, as far as I can perceive, I am in it. I really don't know if it is grace or just being a well schooled actor that allows me to breathe, walk, seem to almost everyone else to be "going along". But inwardly, I feel like the videos of huge buildings after the charges have been detonated for demolition. Yes, I fear (as though it is all I know). 

I tremble, I feel only and all, a collapsing. It is a place I would never visit if given a choice...period. Even telling of it now, makes me consider, have I breached a spiritual agreement "I" should abide by, in Christ.

Now, it is "fair game" for any to say "Our walk should be one of glory to glory, you Israel, are obviously such a spiritual mess as this experience is peculiar to you...and shows a tremendous spiritual defect". I have considered this, and have known, in some measure the pleasure of going from rock to rock surefooted (as I may only know in presumption). But, yes, I have felt that way...new things breaking forth in (what appears) glorious (to me) revelations. Oh, yes, I like that...I like that a lot.

But I cannot deny this other "thing"...of feeling lost as a lamb in a maelstrom...of having only only cries of "mercy, Lord" able to leave my lips.

To say that mercy becomes manifest (as if a reader might wonder "what happens next in this "thing"), is moot. (Trust me, if you are able, I couldn't be writing of it if it didn't) Yes, mercy comes, mercy secures, mercy (if my words can frame it) re-establishes itself...quite plainly. As plain as terror came, mercy vanquishes. And the "knowing" of it, as mercy..is quite plain, for it does not say "the things you feared were groundless, you are not "as" proud as you thought" No, it's not that at all. All it says is "you have come through". 

But it comes with a question I perceive...and I really don't know if it is spirit or anything else (is there "anything else"?) What have you seen? What did you learn?

I am weak. I can, at any time, be broken like a dry leaf. I may not know anything of what I think I know...at all. And this is why I am terrified to define for myself, to myself, what success "looks like"...for it seems I am quite able to do that with disatrous (for me) results, but not only for me...for in those times I see how I have contaminated the Lord's testimony through me, played the fool while men (and Heaven) look on, been in so many ways the very epitome of all my words would seem to repudiate in seeking to testify of Christ.

Unless another secures me, has secured me, continues to secure me, I am, of all men, most miserable. 

And yet, I say with a confidence that I know only mercy can provide, Christ is risen. Jesus is indeed, Lord.


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## welderguy (Jul 10, 2016)

Israel said:


> The thing is this, for me, hinted at in another thread. I can go along feeling fine, thinking I'm OK, in whatever measure "OK" means at the time, feeling as I might describe (if we can describe anything of this life), "like I am (sorta) keeping step".
> Then "it" happens. And when "it" happens, I cannot deny it. It may not be a visible thing, and usually isn't...in the sense that an observer might say "Oh, you are having a thing of "it" because of what you did before...or said before..., huh?"
> 
> No, it is not that at all, though "in myself" I may think I see a trigger. If you have experienced it you will know it, if you haven't, there's no sufficient way to describe it. But, nevertheless, I will at best speak of "my end" of the experience. It is like "all" my pride comes up before me, a huge stinking ball of, no, mushroom cloud, that shakes me, as best I can describe...to my core. I use quotes around the "all" for I believe now it is presumptuous of me to think I see it "all". But whatever I see of it...breaks me inside like a twig.
> ...



Wow! Great post.

I think success is very paradoxical. The way up is actually down.But it's not something we do on our own.

Jesus said in John 15:5

" for without me ye can do nothing."(glass half empty)...(or more appropriately,glass broken and empty)


But Paul confirms it in a far more victorious way in Phil.4:13

" I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."(glass full and running over!)


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## gordon 2 (Jul 10, 2016)

Israel said:


> The thing is this, for me, hinted at in another thread. I can go along feeling fine, thinking I'm OK, in whatever measure "OK" means at the time, feeling as I might describe (if we can describe anything of this life), "like I am (sorta) keeping step".
> Then "it" happens. And when "it" happens, I cannot deny it. It may not be a visible thing, and usually isn't...in the sense that an observer might say "Oh, you are having a thing of "it" because of what you did before...or said before..., huh?"
> 
> No, it is not that at all, though "in myself" I may think I see a trigger. If you have experienced it you will know it, if you haven't, there's no sufficient way to describe it. But, nevertheless, I will at best speak of "my end" of the experience. It is like "all" my pride comes up before me, a huge stinking ball of, no, mushroom cloud, that shakes me, as best I can describe...to my core. I use quotes around the "all" for I believe now it is presumptuous of me to think I see it "all". But whatever I see of it...breaks me inside like a twig.
> ...



I hear you and I assume I understand at least in part. 

Perhaps in our efforts in study to find ourselves approved we are sometimes bullied.  To have been the victim of bullying is to know uncertainty of footing, physically and cognitively in faith, perhaps. It is to doubt self in the way, but not the way.  And it is to be uneasy about our spiritual makeup as it experiences the world we live in..

 Or looking to Jesus as our salve and the extent that his Father was to him, that is to say him, and what the Father can be to us might be a source of anxiety.

Or perhaps to be like Steven full of grace is hard to come by when yesterday we were and today we are trowing ourselves rocks and knowing that to someone that was supposed to be dead in Christ there is still something living outside.

But then to be a member of the living body with even loosely defined borders to the world is this not wholesome and with some anxieties expected? What is a kingdom without frontiers. When Abraham was told to move away I expect he feared. Moses feared his stutter.  Jesus asked that a cup might not be his.


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## Israel (Jul 15, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> I hear you and I assume I understand at least in part.
> 
> Perhaps in our efforts in study to find ourselves approved we are sometimes bullied.  To have been the victim of bullying is to know uncertainty of footing, physically and cognitively in faith, perhaps. It is to doubt self in the way, but not the way.  And it is to be uneasy about our spiritual makeup as it experiences the world we live in..
> 
> ...


I find my mind revisiting this matter, and your reference to being bullied, or a bully, seems not lost on me.
Love needs no assurance, I am persuaded, for it is the very nature of assurance,_ of Assurer_.

Perhaps in that way success is measured, in the needing of no assurance of itself as success, for love needs no reason to be, as it is reason for the being of all that is.
The never failing of it a thing we seem to be, if not designed for, (for we rarely know a _fleeing from_ relative to a _fleeing to_, as in failure/success) yet, we have this conviction we are being called out of the place of that relativity to the place of perfect surety...where "success", if it be, is not measured against anything...where truth IS, not merely standing as "opposed to" lies. It needs nothing in its support. It is, and always has been "from the beginning"...it is the lie that must vanish, in opposition, even its presentation as necessary support (or supporting role, in truth) for truth.

I will take a certain comfort then from this.
Love never fails.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 15, 2016)

Israel said:


> I find my mind revisiting this matter, and your reference to being bullied, or a bully, seems not lost on me.
> Love needs no assurance, I am persuaded, for it is the very nature of assurance,_ of Assurer_.
> 
> Perhaps in that way success is measured, in the needing of no assurance of itself as success, for love needs no reason to be, as it is reason for the being of all that is.
> ...



Good point(s). So within our faith life there should be no enemy beating up on that life. But within the world there are multitudes that would beat us up in every way. It is enough to make someone bipolar, shell shocked, wry,  negative, low self esteemed, pessimistic, violent, withdrawn, etc. Such is our cross perhaps, but in our faith life does not Christ on his cross continue in ministry?

Personally I get my balance from the Kingdom and the love that rays from it. And it does happen that when I venture to far in the world, where I find I am without capability, it is to the  Kingdom I return and its lights, which I believe is close or near the same as you indicate just now.

Perhaps, don't be ashamed of your flesh, you did not ask for it.  Yet, in the honoring of parents there is heavenly blessing. Perhaps.


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## Israel (Jul 16, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Good point(s). So within our faith life there should be no enemy beating up on that life. But within the world there are multitudes that would beat us up in every way. It is enough to make someone bipolar, shell shocked, wry,  negative, low self esteemed, pessimistic, violent, withdrawn, etc. Such is our cross perhaps, but in our faith life does not Christ on his cross continue in ministry?
> 
> Personally I get my balance from the Kingdom and the love that rays from it. And it does happen that when I venture to far in the world, where I find I am without capability, it is to the  Kingdom I return and its lights, which I believe is close or near the same as you indicate just now.
> 
> Perhaps, don't be ashamed of your flesh, you did not ask for it.  Yet, in the honoring of parents there is heavenly blessing. Perhaps.



There is much in that. Especially the tinted portion.

Is it not, in some way, in that venturing forth, as you say of a "too far in the world" that our begotten likeness is to us confirmed as sons? That "chastening out", which, if received, shows us as those belonging to the Father? (If we need scriptural testimony, it is ample.)
It becomes the peculiar matter Paul described in the discovery of grace, I believe. "Where sin abounds grace abounds all the more" and the consequential necessary disabusement of the notion, "I should therefore sin more, to see more grace..." God forbid! 

(For me) It is as though in the learning of this Paul had to go places (if you will) _in himself_, with God, of discovery. The outworking of liberty, according to the inworking of the Spirit, may not always seem "apace". And yet, our liberty is total and irrefutable to all (even ourselves) except of the Spirit who gives it.


In the most juvenile terms a man is given wings. He is told, "you are free, in the absolute, these wings are yours to take you wherever...but...you WILL learn what they are given for." Out of this may come that odd discovery Paul also spoke of..."If, while seeking to be jutified in Christ I find myself a sinner, is Christ the minister of sin?" God forbid! 
I cannot blame the wings for my venturing "too far" into the world, but, a man may, through his being chastened and disciplined, learn of a deep predilection to fly places useless, of no profit, like a man indulging a desire to see the desert and learn..."yes, I have wings, but I am still flesh and I am dying of thirst, here". And so (perhaps) a deeper work begins, the revelation of that "predilection"...that thing of "self indulgence", once not even seen by the man till wings were given and his liberty "allowed". He may discover, be pressed to ask then, of certain matters. "Yes, I can go anywhere, but the going is not just for the 'going of anywhere'...it is toward a peculiar target I must always be redirected at...course corrected for". And for this I must learn to trust not my will, or sight, but my instrument of guidance, given with "the wings"...that thing that told me "WILL learn what they are given for".
And so I, or any man (if it be applicable) may learn "O, how I have been deceived by shiny things that catch my eye! I want to go and "take a look!". And in that revelation of himself (_given to him_), vision is narrowed, becomes exclusitory, disciplined, trained...but (perhaps) never apart from the confession and understanding "apart from my instrument of guidance, I am given easily to distraction, deception...and sin"
So Paul, aware of being forbidden to impugn grace at all, must say "all things are lawful, but not all things are expedient" As though "I can never diminish the absolute liberty of such a grace we are given, but I can caution as to its exercise". Yet, even in caution, we must always be aware of the instrument of guidance, to learn to speak and act as men who seek not to have dominion over anyone elses faith, while yet being true to the testimony of Christ we are given. 
And I am persuaded, for this, if we would not "venture too far" our commonness of flesh, the sheer fragility of these frames of dust must be made very true to us so that "the excellency of the power may be of God, and not, of us".
As I believe you make reference in the honor to be given, perhaps less of esteem than recognition in that commonness experienced, "the measure to which I measure, will be measured back to me again".
Therefore, my _proclaimed_ need of grace will be made manifest if in disingenuity it is spoken, for I shall surely get a taste of that which I dish out.

(It makes me "more aware" of my need of grace!) 
So that word and truth, perhaps, may come into a more perfect alignment...in and through a man?
And Christ be glorified in his purchased possession.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 18, 2016)

How much grace is enough grace before one's heart is made one of flesh from one of stone and how much grace is enough  to change paradigm from where God is the source of Evil to man that source and from where one reads the word with a hardened heart to one made of flesh?


From this to this.

From this:


Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

To this:
Mark 7:20-37King James Version (KJV)

20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.


?????

 "Those who have ears to hear, hear."???

What has changed in the understanding of the genesis of evil here? Is it that God says one thing to the Hebrews and another to Christians? Why is it that we don't need to wash our hands to the elbow to tackle this for some obvious problem?


Grace lifts Jesus and He lifts us. I cannot cower.  Personally I cannot ask for more grace. It is all there in Him through Jesus who resurrects the dead physically and spiritually and in who's kingdom  and through the Holy Spirit one is made smart to justice and made to hear Jesus figure out of his parables His word, word from Word.

So how much grace is enough? When is grace, and grace heaped on grace, not a good thing? Ever?

Are you the lord's mother and yet still guilty that you're not good enough--even full of grace in Jesus?


Mark 3:35King James Version (KJV)

35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.


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## Israel (Jul 30, 2016)

Grace being sufficient is never in question.
Its apprehenison may be.
A brother understood, in his acknowledging of the sufficiency of such grace...yet a pursuit, not of his own intitiation, nor of his own will. He made no claim to his being anything but in pursuit of that which he understood was the purpose for his apprehension..."that I may know Him", and surely made no claim of having already laid hold of all to which his having been apprehended had purposed him.

There is never any shame in the revelation of grace, and God forbid it be spoken so. If it is implied a man is rightly judged.

But even of such a man may learn, perhaps as this other: 
Now if we judged ourselves properly, we would not come under judgment. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world...

An undisciplined man might find cause for shame when his lack is exposed. But that same man may also learn, even in time of salvation, there is no shame to admit he needs discipline.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 30, 2016)

Israel said:


> Grace being sufficient is never in question.
> Its apprehenison may be.
> A brother understood, in his acknowledging of the sufficiency of such grace...yet a pursuit, not of his own intitiation, nor of his own will. He made no claim to his being anything but in pursuit of that which he understood was the purpose for his apprehension..."that I may know Him", and surely made no claim of having already laid hold of all to which his having been apprehended had purposed him.
> 
> ...



Amen


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## Rich M (Aug 21, 2016)

Paul says something about some leading quiet peaceful lives.

No drama, no nit-picking wife to drive you out onto the roof, kids are in-line, no stress at work, etc.

I would call that success.


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## RH Clark (Aug 25, 2016)

Success is to truly love and be loved in return, which is impossible without knowing God's love.


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## ddd-shooter (Aug 27, 2016)

Success is Christ living in us to accomplish the purposes for which we were created. 
His kingdom come, his will be done. Heaven coming to earth through us is the ultimate aim of God.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 27, 2016)

ddd-shooter said:


> Success is Christ living in us to accomplish the purposes for which we were created.
> His kingdom come, his will be done. Heaven coming to earth through us is the ultimate aim of God.



I like that, yet I know that we can't become like Jesus until we see him and become like him;

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Although I do think we should try to get closer to that point each day.


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