# When were the Angels "created"?



## bullethead (Jun 17, 2012)

This seems like a good topic.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 17, 2012)

Interesting. This has a huge theology impact. Point I'm refering to is the "us" factor


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## bullethead (Jun 17, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Interesting. This has a huge theology impact. Point I'm refering to is the "us" factor



That is what I am thinking.
Not to mention "sin" possibly long before biting the apple.


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## bullethead (Jun 17, 2012)

What day of the 6 days of creation were the angels created?

Were they in heaven before creation?

Are they made in God's image also?

When did the War in Heaven take place?

Why did the war take place?

How did it occur if Heaven is as described by some believers as being a place without sin?

Was the angel rebellion actually the first "sin"?

Why didn't God send Jesus to straighten out the sin in heaven?

Is it "fixed" now or are the fancy sidewalks and streetlights just making it seems better than what it is?


I have a lot of questions but lets discuss some of these to establish a base to work off of.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 17, 2012)

bullethead said:


> What day of the 6 days of creation were the angels created?
> *see next, Angels were called "sons of God"*
> 
> Were they in heaven before creation?
> ...


*Hey Bullet, let me take a stab at some of these, based on what the scriptures say. Not that I agree entirely, just pointing out some things. It is a bunch of puzzle pieces that I have not been able to put together in order to see the big picture. I'm shooting from the hip so your responses might remind me of something I forgo*t


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## bullethead (Jun 17, 2012)

"When did the War in Heaven take place?
I'm drawing a blank."

I am trying to figure out if it happened before,during or after creation.
Lucifer was cast out and took 1/3 of the Angels with him.

Then in Revelation it makes it seem like it already happened or it is going to happen in the future.

Some good albeit confusing reading about it here:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=115119


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## hobbs27 (Jun 17, 2012)

bullethead said:


> What day of the 6 days of creation were the angels created?


Before day 1


bullethead said:


> Were they in heaven before creation?


Yes



bullethead said:


> Are they made in God's image also?


Yes


bullethead said:


> When did the War in Heaven take place?


After the creation of the world.



bullethead said:


> Why did the war take place?


Pride in the Angels



bullethead said:


> How did it occur if Heaven is as described by some believers as being a place without sin?


 It wasn't much of a war, besides Angels were traveling between Earth and Heaven...where did it take place? Genesis ch.6 tells us that Sons of God took daughters of man as wives...The Book of Enoch says the Angels lusted after daughters of man and took them as wives and their children were giants, that taught man things of witchcraft and astrology, and medicines.
 Satan had already been cast out of heaven at this point, God took those Angels that married women and imprisoned them here.



bullethead said:


> Was the angel rebellion actually the first "sin"?


Not the first sin of man.



bullethead said:


> Why didn't God send Jesus to straighten out the sin in heaven?


Jesus is God, God took care of it!



bullethead said:


> Is it "fixed" now or are the fancy sidewalks and streetlights just making it seems better than what it is?


 There is a new Heaven and Earth, before Christ died on the cross, we would die going to he1l, or paradise. paradise or Abrahams bosom being a place of comforted waiting, he11 a place of torment. Now that Christ has died we either go to he11, or in the presence of Jesus, which sits at the right hand of the Father.




bullethead said:


> I have a lot of questions but lets discuss some of these to establish a base to work off of.



ok, I only speak for myself, and do not represent any other Christian.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 17, 2012)

bullethead said:


> "When did the War in Heaven take place?
> 
> 
> Then in Revelation it makes it seem like it already happened



I believe most of Revelations has already taken place.


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## bullethead (Jun 17, 2012)

Are the Angels exempt from free will?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 17, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Are the Angels exempt from free will?



Angels are celestial beings. They were created with eternal bodies, they have no way for salvation, yet they can be condemned to he11. Jesus did not die for Angels that are created in heaven for heaven.He died for us, that we may have a way.When we get there, we will be greater than the Angels.


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## bullethead (Jun 17, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Angels are celestial beings. They were created with eternal bodies, they have no way for salvation, yet they can be condemned to he11. Jesus did not die for Angels that are created in heaven for heaven.He died for us, that we may have a way.When we get there, we will be greater than the Angels.



Celestial beings that were created for Heaven and some did not want to stay in Heaven? And God did not foresee this or he did foresee this and let the rebellion happen anyway so the eternal fight can go on and on and on as if it is a never ending Good vs Evil battle yet it could have all been prevented from the start. 

Maybe God should have just skipped the earth creations and put us humans right into Heaven where no free will exists and therefore no problems.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 17, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Are the Angels exempt from free will?



Free will does not exist. The elect angels referred to in the Bible are two thirds of the total. They were chosen and preserved.


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## bullethead (Jun 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Free will does not exist. The elect angels referred to in the Bible are two thirds of the total. They were chosen and preserved.



So Lucifer was supposed to rebel?

No need to battle evil because it is meant to be.

I was supposed to type this.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 17, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Celestial beings that were created for Heaven and some did not want to stay in Heaven?


They wanted their cake and to eat it too{the fallen angels}




bullethead said:


> And God did not foresee this or he did foresee this and let the rebellion happen anyway so the eternal fight can go on and on and on as if it is a never ending Good vs Evil battle yet it could have all been prevented from the start.
> 
> Maybe God should have just skipped the earth creations and put us humans right into Heaven where no free will exists and therefore no problems.



How can we understand heavenly things when all we know are Earthly things and what scripture has provided us with? There's some things we arent to know until later, but more than enough has been provided for us to make our choice.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Free will does not exist. The elect angels referred to in the Bible are two thirds of the total. They were chosen and preserved.



One third of the angels were akin to tobacco suckers.
Not a very good analogy but somehow just popped in my head!
On a more serious note I don't reckon God needed angels as Santa needs helpers.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 17, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> It wasn't much of a war, besides Angels were traveling between Earth and Heaven...where did it take place? Genesis ch.6 tells us that Sons of God took daughters of man as wives...The Book of Enoch says the Angels lusted after daughters of man and took them as wives and their children were giants, that taught man things of witchcraft and astrology, and medicines.
> Satan had already been cast out of heaven at this point, God took those Angels that married women and imprisoned them here.



Do you genuinely believe all this mess?  I mean seriously...does all of what you typed seem plausible and normal?  Because it reads like fantasy to me.


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## bullethead (Jun 17, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Do you genuinely believe all this mess?  I mean seriously...does all of what you typed seem plausible and normal?



Posts keep trumping themselves on a regular basis here lately.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 18, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Do you genuinely believe all this mess?  I mean seriously...does all of what you typed seem plausible and normal?  Because it reads like fantasy to me.



Yes.


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## Four (Jun 18, 2012)

How do you reconcile this?



hobbs27 said:


> Jesus is God, God took care of it!





hobbs27 said:


> Now that Christ has died we either go to he11, or in the presence of Jesus, which sits at the right hand of the Father.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 18, 2012)

Four said:


> How do you reconcile this?



Jesus is God, Jesus when He walked on earth was 100% God and 100% man.The man died,the spirit did not.


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## Four (Jun 18, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus is God, Jesus when He walked on earth was 100% God and 100% man.The man died,the spirit did not.



So, if your first statement is true, we can mix Jesus and god around and the sentence will still be consistent, yes?

We can say God walked on earth, and jesus sacrificed god for our sins?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 18, 2012)

Four said:


> So, if your first statement is true, we can mix Jesus and god around and the sentence will still be consistent, yes?
> 
> We can say God walked on earth, and jesus sacrificed god for our sins?



Sure, but the reason most trinity believers as myself separate God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost, is to explain an action, The Father sits on His throne, The Son came here,and acts as a mediator for us, The Holy Ghost is here among us and directs us.
Generally The Father commands with voice which is the Son, and The Holy Ghost reacts....clear as mud?


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## Four (Jun 18, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Sure, but the reason most trinity believers as myself separate God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost, is to explain an action, The Father sits on His throne, The Son came here,and acts as a mediator for us, The Holy Ghost is here among us and directs us.
> Generally The Father commands with voice which is the Son, and The Holy Ghost reacts....clear as mud?



So it helps you to envision the same entity three different ways?

Like if i was to make an alias for myself when i am being mean.. then said "jack" did it.. but jack is really me, just the version of me that does mean stuff.


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## jmcrae1 (Jun 21, 2012)

So it helps you to envision the same entity three different ways?



> Like if i was to make an alias for myself when i am being mean.. then said "jack" did it.. but jack is really me, just the version of me that does mean stuff.


__________________
The trinity may be hard to understand but so was the concept of water having three different forms when I young. Water has the same chemical composition whether it be solid, liquid or vapor.  We don't normally call ice cubes water cubes, just like Jesus is not normally refered to as God the father. That being said ice cubes are water cubes just in a solid form, Just like Jesus is God just manifest in an Earthly form. Jesus is Equal yet seperate. Water doesn't freeze things ice does. Water doesn't burn things water vapor does. Water quinches thirst not vapor or ice. All three forms do diffrent things yet that are all the same. This is how God works the spirit comforts us , The son saves us, and the Father keeps us. all three different yet all three working for us.


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## stringmusic (Jun 21, 2012)

jmcrae1 said:


> So it helps you to envision the same entity three different ways?
> 
> __________________
> The trinity may be hard to understand but so was the concept of water having three different forms when I young. Water has the same chemical composition whether it be solid, liquid or vapor.  We don't normally call ice cubes water cubes, just like Jesus is not normally refered to as God the father. That being said ice cubes are water cubes just in a solid form, Just like Jesus is God just manifest in an Earthly form. Jesus is Equal yet seperate. Water doesn't freeze things ice does. Water doesn't burn things water vapor does. Water quinches thirst not vapor or ice. All three forms do diffrent things yet that are all the same. This is how God works the spirit comforts us , The son saves us, and the Father keeps us. all three different yet all three working for us.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 22, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Free will does not exist. The elect angels referred to in the Bible are two thirds of the total. They were chosen and preserved.


 Oh Lord, help us Jesus! Give me a scripture please where elect angels are 2/3rd's of anything....and a scripture where free will does not exist?

So when  you sin, it's God's fault because you don't have free will????  That's cool......


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## mtnwoman (Jun 22, 2012)

stringmusic said:


>


  Me, too.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 22, 2012)

Four said:


> So it helps you to envision the same entity three different ways?
> 
> Like if i was to make an alias for myself when i am being mean.. then said "jack" did it.. but jack is really me, just the version of me that does mean stuff.



Well if that's how you see yourself.

But if you face reality....you 'could' be husband, father and provider/protector....all at the same time.....maybe, I don't know you that well. You chose.....some men can't be all those things at once....perhaps it's not possible...I've not been with a man that could pull it off....and if you can't invision that, then I'm not the only woman that has been disappointed in life. But most of us can't be all things to all people.

I'm a different person as a mother, I have a different function and am different when I work and even another person as a wife....same person different 'jobs'.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 22, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes.



Okay.  I think this is where most Christians stop short and don't ever want to get into this kind of thing.  Maybe you're that way in person too.  Maybe it's easy to claim a belief in such online.  Maybe you really do believe this.  I won't pursue dissection of your beliefs here any further on this.

For most folks though, Coach Gundy put it best.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 22, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Oh Lord, help us Jesus! Give me a scripture please where elect angels are 2/3rd's of anything


It is an interesting study if you are so inclined. Spend some time in the books of Daniel and Revelation.


mtnwoman said:


> and a scripture where free will does not exist?


We have already gone that path. The only way for free will to exist is if man is free from God and God's control. The Bible tells us that God has control over man's thoughts and actions. Your issue is with God and his control over creation.


mtnwoman said:


> So when  you sin, it's God's fault because you don't have free will????  That's cool......


God has no faults and rebukes your objection. "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory" (Rom 9:19-23)


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