# Where's Bro David's thread?



## ambush80 (Oct 9, 2018)

Redacted.


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## bullethead (Oct 10, 2018)

I never got to see the last series of posts, guessing they couldn't have been welcomed.


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## Spotlite (Oct 10, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I never got to see the last series of posts, guessing they couldn't have been welcomed.


Same here.


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## Bobby Linton (Oct 10, 2018)

Israel said:


> Is there evidence now that the thread existed? I believe I saw it.
> 
> 
> Who slaughtered all those words and thoughts?
> ...


I just understood all of that! Fella was persistent.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2018)

All of his threads are gone. Apparently we weren't as receptive as the folks in his revival.


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## Bobby Linton (Oct 10, 2018)

I understand the desire to win converts, just don't know why he would come to this subforum and get bent out of shape when his views were challenged.  I'm not really cut out for this debate.  I'd rather make a new friend than win an argument.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2018)

Bobby Linton said:


> I understand the desire to win converts, just don't know why he would come to this subforum and get bent out of shape when his views were challenged.  I'm not really cut out for this debate.  I'd rather make a new friend than win an argument.



We have proven that both can be accomplished although no one from either side actually "wins" the debate.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2018)

Israel said:


> I forget...am I a shirt or skin?


At our age lets hope you are a shirt


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 10, 2018)

Brother David was likely a good guy, but he was frustrating to have a conversation with.... due to the fact that much of his foundation was up for debate. Like trying to debate the true size of Bigfoot's shoes, when we all know that he will never let us measure his feet. Have you ever noticed how religious people are.... like they are in a trance. They can not see that what they deem, by faith, as fact, is not factual, but faith. I took me years to be deprogrammed from the underlying  traditional religious  assumptions. And I expect that some are still there that I don't realize. But the faith remains.


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## Spotlite (Oct 10, 2018)

I actually think religious people have been telling you that faith can’t be measured by your evidence tools.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 10, 2018)

I remember when I first came to GON. I was not like many here whom wondered into the AAA forum, but to a smaller degree, I did the same. However, I think I was more curious how the Atheist would answer my questions. I remember asking, If we evolved from apes, what happened to the apes left behind? LOL, I don't wish to debate this, just mentioning it as an example of the format of most of my post back then. Over time, I realized that I was inserting my unseen traditional biases into the discussions. I should edit that... You guys caused me to see it or directly pointed it out. Of which, once pointed out, I agreed. It became interesting to me that both sides seem to have a degree of faith. I say that meaning that no proof exist to either side. Example being that our way of dating back that far is a hypothesis that is unproven, thus we would have to have faith that it is correct. LOL, I don't want to debate this either. I hope I don't open a can of worms.... but if you wish to comment, feel free. I just don't wish to attempt to undermine it. Because I can't. On one hand, I concede that my side of the fence, the faith side, almost plays a wild card. Meaning that it becomes a discussion which seems as though I am trying to evade. Yet that is what I believe, by faith. Weird, I know. LOL, that's the difference in me and most religious people. Back to the wild card, meaning I believe the earth was created with age on it. Meaning the trees did not have to grow from sprouts, that Adam was created mid age rather than an infant. That the animals had grass fields to eat from rather than dirt waiting on grass to grow. Etc, poor conveyance, typical of me, but you see the point. Faith of a big bang or faith of a creation????  It would be interesting to view your comments on how you feel about my use of "faith" of a big bang


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## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Brother David was likely a good guy, but he was frustrating to have a conversation with.... due to the fact that much of his foundation was up for debate. Like trying to debate the true size of Bigfoot's shoes, when we all know that he will never let us measure his feet. Have you ever noticed how religious people are.... like they are in a trance. They can not see that what they deem, by faith, as fact, is not factual, but faith. I took me years to be deprogrammed from the underlying  traditional religious  assumptions. And I expect that some are still there that I don't realize. But the faith remains.


Although everybody has done/does do that on a variety of subjects at one time or another, albeit on much more minor subjects, there is no other subject like religion that has that level of impact.


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## j_seph (Oct 10, 2018)

One of Brother Davids last post in that was when some made a joke out of the Holy Spirit. He said at that point he was done. Have to say I admire him, he stands for something many will not understand. When his thread started bringing insults directly at the Holy Spirit he put a stop to it. 

For those who cannot understand, an example: You start a thread, then it goes to the point of someone making a joke out of someone else family member, the right thing to do is to stop the thread out of respect to the others family member.

Question is if y'all knew one another by face, would y'all walk up to Brother David, shake his hand and have a conversation with him? I would give 4:1 odds he would y'all and would almost be willing to bet he will still say a prayer for y'all whether ya believe or not. @Brother David


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## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2018)

j_seph said:


> One of Brother Davids last post in that was when some made a joke out of the Holy Spirit. He said at that point he was done. Have to say I admire him, he stands for something many will not understand. When his thread started bringing insults directly at the Holy Spirit he put a stop to it.
> 
> For those who cannot understand, an example: You start a thread, then it goes to the point of someone making a joke out of someone else family member, the right thing to do is to stop the thread out of respect to the others family member.
> 
> Question is if y'all knew one another by face, would y'all walk up to Brother David, shake his hand and have a conversation with him? I would give 4:1 odds he would y'all and would almost be willing to bet he will still say a prayer for y'all whether ya believe or not. @Brother David


Prior to that Brother David posted about not taking things as insults and being manly men and not getting our feewings hurt.
Bro' David needs to pick one and go with it.


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## j_seph (Oct 10, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Prior to that Brother David posted about not taking things as insults and being manly men and not getting our feewings hurt.
> Bro' David needs to pick one and go with it.


Nothing to do with his feelings getting hurt. There is conviction in following God and being one of his, y'all made the insults on the Holy Spirit. He put a stop to that since it was the thread he started.
This is where I can see that those of y'all that "were self proclaimed Christians" once were nothing more than folks being religious. If you had the real deal, there would have been conviction that you would not walk away and deny.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 10, 2018)

j_seph said:


> One of Brother Davids last post in that was when some made a joke out of the Holy Spirit. He said at that point he was done. Have to say I admire him, he stands for something many will not understand. When his thread started bringing insults directly at the Holy Spirit he put a stop to it.
> 
> For those who cannot understand, an example: You start a thread, then it goes to the point of someone making a joke out of someone else family member, the right thing to do is to stop the thread out of respect to the others family member.
> 
> Question is if y'all knew one another by face, would y'all walk up to Brother David, shake his hand and have a conversation with him? I would give 4:1 odds he would y'all and would almost be willing to bet he will still say a prayer for y'all whether ya believe or not. @Brother David


No doubt. Something strange on the handgun sub forum.... he was taking some heat for a post of his, of which he was responding rather sarcastic..... And someone stated, due to what he said, "Oh, I know who you are now". I wondered what that was about. Several possibilities.... I am reading to much into it.... he did not want to be know personally.... church affiliation caused him to step out..... was a previous removed poster back under a new name..... got over his head and did not know how to swim in the AAA forum..... or as you said, wanted nothing to do with using the HS in jokes.... But all his post are gone. LOL, I realize that I am reading waaaay to much into this. Oh no, I don't want to be like my mother. I got that from her. If I wanted to ride my bike to the store for a coke, she had already read into this that I was up to no good, and I was a good kid


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## j_seph (Oct 10, 2018)

he still here and his post


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## bullethead (Oct 10, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Nothing to do with his feelings getting hurt. There is conviction in following God and being one of his, y'all made the insults on the Holy Spirit. He put a stop to that since it was the thread he started.
> This is where I can see that those of y'all that "were self proclaimed Christians" once were nothing more than folks being religious. If you had the real deal, there would have been conviction that you would not walk away and deny.


That is easy to say when you only know one side. I get it,it is inconceivable to you. But it us reality.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Nothing to do with his feelings getting hurt. There is conviction in following God and being one of his, y'all made the insults on the Holy Spirit. He put a stop to that since it was the thread he started.
> This is where I can see that those of y'all that "were self proclaimed Christians" once were nothing more than folks being religious. If you had the real deal, there would have been conviction that you would not walk away and deny.


1. We didn't drag Bro David in here.
2. By voluntarily coming here, TO A PLACE YOU KNOW IS A FORUM WHERE PEOPLE DONT AGREE WITH YOU, you are accepting the "conditions".
3. by giving the "be manly men and don't be insulted" speech previously, I don't personally view his departure as being as noble as you do.
4. In fact its down right hypocritical.
You are free to choose what you admire but Im passing on this one.


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## Brother David (Oct 10, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> 1. We didn't drag Bro David in here.
> 2. By voluntarily coming here, TO A PLACE YOU KNOW IS A FORUM WHERE PEOPLE DONT AGREE WITH YOU, you are accepting the "conditions".
> 3. by giving the "be manly men and don't be insulted" speech previously, I don't personally view his departure as being as noble as you do.
> 4. In fact its down right hypocritical.
> You are free to choose what you admire but Im passing on this one.



Just to stop the gossip !
  I chose to delete all threads and step away for personal reasons . I was unable to post on any of the pages without someone bring up my Faith . There are times in life when you just have to walk away . My flesh wants to point fingers and accuse , but it's my choice to step away ! 
I enjoyed our debates , and hope all you gentlemen well in all you endeavor !


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## 660griz (Oct 10, 2018)

He can't put a stop to insults on the 'Holy Spirit'. Just in the little threads he controls. I insult numerous 'spirits' on a daily basis.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> No doubt. Something strange on the handgun sub forum.... he was taking some heat for a post of his, of which he was responding rather sarcastic..... And someone stated, due to what he said, "Oh, I know who you are now". I wondered what that was about. Several possibilities.... I am reading to much into it.... he did not want to be know personally.... church affiliation caused him to step out..... was a previous removed poster back under a new name..... got over his head and did not know how to swim in the AAA forum..... or as you said, wanted nothing to do with using the HS in jokes.... But all his post are gone. LOL, I realize that I am reading waaaay to much into this. Oh no, I don't want to be like my mother. I got that from her. If I wanted to ride my bike to the store for a coke, she had already read into this that I was up to no good, and I was a good kid


The plot thickens.....
But to be honest, all that is just "filler". Ive seen enough from his posts to formulate my opinion.


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## j_seph (Oct 10, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> The plot thickens.....
> But to be honest, all that is just "filler". Ive seen enough from his posts to formulate my opinion.


Are you a scientist in the real world sir?


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## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Just to stop the gossip !
> I chose to delete all threads and step away for personal reasons . I was unable to post on any of the pages without someone bring up my Faith . There are times in life when you just have to walk away . My flesh wants to point fingers and accuse , but it's my choice to step away !
> I enjoyed our debates , and hope all you gentlemen well in all you endeavor !


Surely you wont believe this but........
Its your wildly inaccurate interpretations of what we actually say that is responsible for you "having to walk away".
So get to steppin…..


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## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Are you a scientist in the real world sir?


Ive dissected a frog.
Does that count?


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 10, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Just to stop the gossip !
> I chose to delete all threads and step away for personal reasons . I was unable to post on any of the pages without someone bring up my Faith . There are times in life when you just have to walk away . My flesh wants to point fingers and accuse , but it's my choice to step away !
> I enjoyed our debates , and hope all you gentlemen well in all you endeavor !


Glad your still here. LOL, sorry for the wild speculations. I did not know you could delete a thread like that. Wanted to several times. EDIT, I just went to an old thread and found the door to delete. I learn something everyday....


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## 1eyefishing (Oct 10, 2018)

In my view, the very worst of religion is the proselytizing...


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## Israel (Oct 10, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I actually think religious people have been telling you that faith can’t be measured by your evidence tools.



I gotta tell you bro...I can't even measure it by mine. I ain't bein' flip, I really never know.

Had Jesus _not said "_Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed_ ..."_
or continued to not hear what _He did say..._well, what's the theological term in Latin for "folds like a cheap camera"?

I am inclined to look for a "bigness" in myself, you know? "I am this, I am that, I got this, I got that, I know this, I know that, I seen this, I seen that..." It's amazing what I think of myself with a bottle of beer and a hamburger in my hand at a sunny cookout.

But those times when I sense that mountain coming down on me...suddenly...all this stuff I had a hope in when the sun seemed shining and I skipped along the path...ooops...they kinda vanish. Quickly.

Had Jesus said instead..."You're toast dude if at that moment...you _even feel_ that cold touch of chaos spreading like an express train of infection through your being."


There's this brother on here used to be more regular. I love this one testimony he shared. Part of the beauty of it was his simplicity in sharing it. He didn't make any claim "this happened to me, and I did such and such, and then God did such and such...and then this happened, and then that happened..."


All he knew was driving down the highway (at highway speed) this truck suddenly pulled out in front of him...BOOM...right there, and as much as this brother knew anything of knowing anything that he knew...HE KNEW it was crunch time. As I recall his telling he said "I just grabbed the wheel, braced myself, closed my eyes and said 'Nooooooo'..."

And the next thing I knew, I was going down the road, same lane...with that truck in my rearview. I don't know what happened. Had I just "passed through it?" I don't know...."

O, Man! How I love these kinda testimonies. They become so real to me in their simplicity. Reminds me of that guy that got healed of blindness when everyone came at him with questions. "who did this, how'd it happen...what's going on here, anyway?" He said "all I know is I was blind...and now I see"

I guess "Noooooo" don't seem like much of a prayer. Or, in that situation...even much of a declaration, after all...ain't it pretty much what almost anyone would say? Can I even surmise _against this_ brother's testimony "he musta had great faith to get him through that"? When by (as I recall) his only testimony to that moment was "I knew it was crunch time" (my words, not his)?

Those moments when we are "saved" from what (even to us by all appearances) seems absolutely inevitable...whose gonna say  "Oh yeah guys...I knew my faith would save me?" Ain't it always a working quite contrary to that? Like Paul said..."we had the sentence of death in ourselves!" We, at that point, had _every surety_ of _knowing how_ it would go....BUT...!


Man...if I could get this one thing over...(but I know _I can't!!!!) _of how vain_, _fruitless_, _unprofitable,_ fretfully fretful! Terribly "anti-peace" _is trying to discern oneself as having_ "enough faith"! _

_(I think) _It's far better to let the fundamental question of all wash over us....even when that very question makes us appear as unbelievers to our very own selves in the asking of it, appearing before God (as none can hide, anway!) as we are..."Is the faith I see in Jesus Christ...real? Sufficient?" O! How we hurt ourselves looking in the wrong place for the origins of faith....and "trying to have it". _ Or trying to discern "do I have enough?"_

Mostly, (I think) we are going to tell ourselves (and O so fruitlessly and fretfully often try to prove to others, or present ourselves as such) "Oh, yeah...me? I'm a big faith guy...Jesus and me....I mean....we are sooooo tight!"


But "crunch time" shows us something very different. Man, am I little! I ain't got much of anything...at all. Except a whole lotta "Nooooo" for stuff I don't want...and how then am I any different in that...from _anyone else_?

Is anyone "different"? I had to be (and am continuing to be) persuaded..."yeah, Jesus you are different".

Just how different? So different now to me....it's a joke _to try_ to be like Him.

And how different now, at the very least...at least to me?

He's the only One who has ever found the means of convincing me...(God knows I have taken as many other "ways" I could find to abort this)

"You be you"...and I'll be me. You do what you do, and I do what I do. 


But how could I ever believe that's enough? That's OK? I'd have to believe someone made it OK...for me to be ...me. (and not try to be something, or someone else! O! The relief!...who can believe it?)


Some will say "But silly boy, that's just the simple message of the gospel...some one has accounted for all (and removed) seen as fault in you...even...and especially...by you... You ain't got much faith at all. That's the baby food!"


I'll take it!

I really am just beginning to believe...

That my "weakest" prayers, even all that appears as "lack of faith" (wow....what seems more condemning to "THE CHRISTIAN"?) Has all...really....been taken into account. Way before I even knew...there was gonna be a me...to know...as me.


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## 660griz (Oct 10, 2018)

Brother David said:


> I was unable to post on any of the pages without someone bring up my Faith .


Gosh Brother David. I don't know why. 
You were so, under the radar.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2018)

1eyefishing said:


> In my view, the very worst of religion is the proselytizing...


It is at the root of a lot of issues although I do have to say, at least with the Christian "regulars" here, they aren't focused on "converting" us.
Unless they are being sneaky about it...…..


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## 1eyefishing (Oct 10, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> It is at the root of a lot of issues although I do have to say, at least with the Christian "regulars" here, they aren't focused on "converting" us.
> Unless they are being sneaky about it...…..



Yes, I quite often read through the threads here to roll over the questions and thoughts in my own mind, without participating in the thread.
I could hardly bear the ones that were deleted.
Sometimes I have the faith.
Sometimes I have the doubts.
I don't believe that faith can be Alchemy-ed into knowledge.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 10, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I actually think religious people have been telling you that faith can’t be measured by your evidence tools.


True, but it can be tempered by common sense. Most folks aren't infected with religious faith to the point that it makes them disavow everything that experience and common sense have shown them to be true over the years.

If I tell you that I firmly believe that through my faith, I can drop a rock and it will fall upwards into the sky instead of falling to the ground, but I can't demonstrate it in front of you; then you would likely have a quite skeptical view of my intelligence and rationality. Yet, many who are blinded by their faith don't understand that the same reaction comes from most folks when you tell them in 2018 that you honestly believe that snakes can talk, the world is only 6,000 years old, a man can survive a prolonged period of time in a whale's belly, plants existed before the sun did, evolution and natural selection don't exist, and that humans and chimpanzees are unrelated.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2018)

660griz said:


> Gosh Brother David. I don't know why. View attachment 945564
> You were so, under the radar.


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## Spotlite (Oct 10, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> True, but it can be tempered by common sense. Most folks aren't infected with religious faith to the point that it makes them disavow everything that experience and common sense have shown them to be true over the years.
> 
> If I tell you that I firmly believe that through my faith, I can drop a rock and it will fall upwards into the sky instead of falling to the ground, but I can't demonstrate it in front of you; then you would likely have a quite skeptical view of my intelligence and rationality. Yet, many who are blinded by their faith don't understand that the same reaction comes from most folks when you tell them in 2018 that you honestly believe that snakes can talk, the world is only 6,000 years old, a man can survive a prolonged period of time in a whale's belly, plants existed before the sun did, evolution and natural selection don't exist, and that humans and chimpanzees are unrelated.


I can’t disagree except a rock is something we can see where it lands. And it’s something we can do and not read about.

Faith is unseen. Remove all bible stories and it really doesn’t affect our faith. It isn’t in a talking snake or any such stories.

Remember, look through the eyes of those 6,000 years ago at how things looked and were described by them and use common sense. I wonder what the differences are between now and then of the sound a sea shell makes.

I’ve never seen a talking snake and probably would be the first one to shoot it and the last one to tell anyone it talked.

As far as what non believers think about the sanity or questioning believers intelligence, to each his own. That’s always been, always will be.

I think where the line is drawn is when non believers ask for evidence without “regurgitated scripture”, yet regurgitated scripture is exactly where non believers go after claiming certain things.

It’s true that anyone can take a scripture and make it say or mean whatever they want, but when you use the entire Bible, it’s a different outcome and when you don’t, it reveals a lack of understanding of the Bible.

Further, when thousands of denominations and “Christians” tell non believers thats not what that means”.........it does question why is it just non believers and some radical Muslims that think scripture commands to rape and kill?

Other than that, I agree, some people, including Christians fail to exercise common sense.


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## ky55 (Oct 10, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


>



Who da thunk it?


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## kmckinnie (Oct 10, 2018)

Brother David maybe back one day. As we all do. He had a test. 
He has de decided it best that he departs for a while. 

End of Discussion!

Thankyou Kenny.


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## Spotlite (Oct 10, 2018)

1eyefishing said:


> In my view, the very worst of religion is the proselytizing...


 I’m ok with it as long as they can take no for an answer and not trying to use circumstances to take advantage of someone during an emotional time.

I don’t even like it when they do it at a funeral unles it was a request of the person in the casket.


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## ky55 (Oct 10, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Nothing to do with his feelings getting hurt. There is conviction in following God and being one of his, y'all made the insults on the Holy Spirit. He put a stop to that since it was the thread he started.
> This is where I can see that those of y'all that "were self proclaimed Christians" once were nothing more than folks being religious. If you had the real deal, there would have been conviction that you would not walk away and deny.



My comment about “holy spirits” was no different than the usual comments in here about talking donkeys and dead men walking.
I think da good brutha was looking for a way out and jumped on an opportunity to go out thinking he was looking good.
His assertions of faith as facts weren’t working.

Some of y’all seem to expect your spirits and superstitions to be accepted as facts in the A/A forum, same as they are accepted in the forums upstairs. 
Some of us down here don’t.


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## 1eyefishing (Oct 10, 2018)

I risk repeating myself here but,

I am a dyslexic agnostic insomniac. I lie awake at night and wonder if there really is a dog.

And I don't need anybody's help to make up my mind.
EDIT: ... Or not making up my mind.


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## 1eyefishing (Oct 10, 2018)

"Jesus is both impossible to be with...and the easiest to be with...at once. One will find great reward in hanging with Him."

This brings to my mind the fact that I try to live a life that He would respect, but because it is to my advantage here and now to do so.
It may, secondarily be to my advantage beyond this life also.
I ask myself if this is selfish?


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 10, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I can’t disagree except a rock is something we can see where it lands. And it’s something we can do and not read about.
> 
> Faith is unseen. Remove all bible stories and it really doesn’t affect our faith. It isn’t in a talking snake or any such stories.
> 
> ...


Agreed for the most part. The "look through the eyes of those back in the Bible times and how things looked to and were described by them and use common sense" part of your statement is the key to having a legitimate discussion about it. Anyone who fails to apply that, and repeats obvious scientific impossibilities as literal fact because they were described that way by people long ago who didn't understand them, is not helping their case. They just look gullible and unwilling to use their brain that God gave them. If you are willing to admit that the Bible has flaws in it from the time and circumstances of its writing, and is not necessarily all literal, then I can discuss it with you, but if you are a literalist, it's not so easy.

If you were a man in 2,000 BC, you might be pardoned for believing that a man could be swallowed by a whale and live three days and nights; or, not knowing about other continents or anywhere really outside of your own vicinity, believing that a man could round up every species of animal on the earth and stuff them into a boat 450 feet long, etc. If you still believe those things to be possible now, there is a flaw in your logic somewhere.


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## bullethead (Oct 10, 2018)

Those things can be removed from the Bible AFTER a person is a believer Spotlite,  but if removed before there is no WoW factor which keeps the attention to read the rest.


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## ambush80 (Oct 10, 2018)

Israel said:


> Well
> 
> 
> I am glad you have "shown up" again.
> ...



This doesn't seem like the place to assert Jesus is real and then talk about all the great things he does in your life.  This sub forum, by its title, is a place to discuss the veracity of Jesus as a supernatural being.  That's what I always thought.  Isn't coming to this subforum and proclaiming "How great thou art!" similar to going a couple floors up and proclaiming "God is dead!"?  I suppose its allowable to go into the deer hunting room and talk about walleye fishing, but I imagine at some point the thread would be moved to the correct forum.

I think one can still have an aplologetic discussion without being able to use alchemy or equation or lug wrench.  It can be a discussion about ideas or psyche or concepts.  It does move along better if its a discussion rather than a sermon or testimony, I think.


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## ambush80 (Oct 10, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> Agreed for the most part. The "look through the eyes of those back in the Bible times and how things looked to and were described by them and use common sense" part of your statement is the key to having a legitimate discussion about it. Anyone who fails to apply that, and repeats obvious scientific impossibilities as literal fact because they were described that way by people long ago who didn't understand them, is not helping their case. They just look gullible and unwilling to use their brain that God gave them. If you are willing to admit that the Bible has flaws in it from the time and circumstances of its writing, and is not necessarily all literal, then I can discuss it with you, but if you are a literalist, it's not so easy.
> 
> If you were a man in 2,000 BC, you might be pardoned for believing that a man could be swallowed by a whale and live three days and nights; or, not knowing about other continents or anywhere really outside of your own vicinity, believing that a man could round up every species of animal on the earth and stuff them into a boat 450 feet long, etc. If you still believe those things to be possible now, there is a flaw in your logic somewhere.




I'll play a bit of Jesus' advocate and posit that "The Lord of the Universe can fit all the animals on a boat and keep them fed indefinitely".  So there's a logic to it.

In Multiverse theory, don't they postulate that all things conceivable exist in some universe or do I misunderstand the theory? Regardless, that doesn't speak to what has happened historically in OUR Universe; this one, where rocks fall down and dead things stay dead.


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## Heathern (Oct 10, 2018)

I imagine if an A/A or A went trolling in one of the religous subforums on here, then the thread would have turned out even worse, even more quickly, with the double standards of (can't call out mo...mod...moder.....) practiced here, lest you insult those with god complexes.  

The "waaaaAAAAAAA waaaaaAAAAAA waaaaaAAAAAAA - we're being persecuted" only works one way in these parts.


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## ambush80 (Oct 10, 2018)

Heathern said:


> I imagine if an A/A or A went trolling in one of the religous subforums on here, then the thread would have turned out even worse, even more quickly, with the double standards of (can't call out mo...mod...moder.....) practiced here, lest you insult those with god complexes.
> 
> The "waaaaAAAAAAA waaaaaAAAAAA waaaaaAAAAAAA - we're being persecuted" only works one way in these parts.



This is a unique sub forum.  Being objective, dispassionate, rational are guiding principles around here.  It's probably the only place where one could criticize the looks of someone's mother, wife, or daughter and not get into an argument.  At least I hope so.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 11, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I can’t disagree except a rock is something we can see where it lands. And it’s something we can do and not read about.
> 
> Faith is unseen. Remove all bible stories and it really doesn’t affect our faith. It isn’t in a talking snake or any such stories.
> 
> ...





> Faith is unseen. Remove all bible stories and it really doesn’t affect our faith. It isn’t in a talking snake or any such stories.


100% just my opinion -
If the risk/reward system were removed from the whole scenario - no heaven, no he11, no suffering, no seeing Aunt Jenny again in paradise...…..
there would be a massive departure from Christianity in just a few generations.
I think believing, just for the sake of believing, with nothing to gain or lose, would be far less attractive to a whole slew of people.


----------



## ky55 (Oct 11, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> 100% just my opinion -
> If the risk/reward system were removed from the whole scenario - no heaven, no he11, no suffering, no seeing Aunt Jenny again in paradise...…..
> there would be a massive departure from Christianity in just a few generations.



Yep, and if you could take away the indoctrination of small children as a recruitment tool the departure would be even more massive. 

*


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 11, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Yep, and if you could take away the indoctrination of small children as a recruitment tool the departure would be even more massive.
> 
> *



Ive read a couple of books lately that talk about Tribalism.  Mostly about how it divides people and causes conflict but also how it's useful to form and cohere groups that work together for common interests.  Sports teams are tribes, Political parties are tribes , and religions are like super tribes.  

In my thread _After God_ I was hoping to see if our instinct to be tribal could be satisfied by a secular institution and what that might look like.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 11, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> 100% just my opinion -
> If the risk/reward system were removed from the whole scenario - no heaven, no he11, no suffering, no seeing Aunt Jenny again in paradise...…..
> there would be a massive departure from Christianity in just a few generations.
> I think believing, just for the sake of believing, with nothing to gain or lose, would be far less attractive to a whole slew of people.


I can agree! 

There is in fact many that “escape” the bad using religion.

I have no respect for those folks. I’d rather a man be straight up and say I’m taking my chances, or simply just don’t want it instead “just in case”.

One reason I have issues with preachers that proselytize at funerals.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 11, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Yep, and if you could take away the indoctrination of small children as a recruitment tool the departure would be even more massive.
> 
> *


Not all indoctrinate. Just like sine non believers that allow their kids the opportunity to go to church, believers don’t force theirs. If a person can’t make uo their own minds ti be religious or not, they’re brainwashed.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 11, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> All of his threads are gone. Apparently we weren't as receptive as the folks in his revival.



I tried to tell him that he, in all probability, wasn't going to change anyone's mind here.  I understand his frustration and disappointment.  Believing people are going to perish and not being able to get thru to them can be very disheartening.  He has, without a doubt, very good intentions, and is probably a class act.  He just needs to understand that it's not a personal failure if people don't respond.  Also, I don't think he had a very accurate concept that  A/As are individuals.  Each has his/her own reason for believing the way they believe.  In fact I think in this day and age we ALL tend to hear one descriptive adjective about someone, and we put them into a preconceived mold or stereotype which in no way comes close to recognizing who they are.   What one gathers from the media and church isn't an accurate picture of A/As , only a stereotype or mold.  Anyway, wish him the best.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 11, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Yep, and if you could take away the indoctrination of small children as a recruitment tool the departure would be even more massive.
> 
> *


How do you explain the multitudes that are saved who are not children, who were never really bad people, that are in their right mind and not on medication for mental illnesses, oh and had never been much on going to church?


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 11, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Not all indoctrinate. Just like sine non believers that allow their kids the opportunity to go to church, believers don’t force theirs. If a person can’t make uo their own minds ti be religious or not, they’re brainwashed.


I had no choice at all growing up. If the church door was open, I  was in church. Sunday mornings (including Sunday school, not just the sermon,) Sunday nights, Wednesday nights, revivals, bible school, prayer meetings, singings, whatever. The alternative was a whipping and then you went anyway.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 11, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> I had no choice at all growing up. If the church door was open, I  was in church. Sunday mornings (including Sunday school, not just the sermon,) Sunday nights, Wednesday nights, revivals, bible school, prayer meetings, singings, whatever. The alternative was a whipping and then you went anyway.


I was taught to go to church, family reunions, etc., but not forced to accept, like anything or anyone. If it didn’t come from your heart, you’re just going through the motions and spinning your wheels.

Staying out of church, school, hunting club meetings and even now work, meant you needed a legitimate reason. If you’re a part of something, be committed to it.

But indoctrination means to teach a person what and how they should believe. My going to church at a young age is not why I’m there today.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 11, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> I had no choice at all growing up. If the church door was open, I  was in church. Sunday mornings (including Sunday school, not just the sermon,) Sunday nights, Wednesday nights, revivals, bible school, prayer meetings, singings, whatever. The alternative was a whipping and then you went anyway.


Sounds like you had awesome upbringing and a drug problem (you were drug to church) Shame you didn't get the addiction.


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## ambush80 (Oct 11, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I was taught to go to church, family reunions, etc., but not forced to accept, like anything or anyone. If it didn’t come from your heart, you’re just going through the motions and spinning your wheels.
> 
> Staying out of church, school, hunting club meetings and even now work, meant you needed a legitimate reason. If you’re a part of something, be committed to it.
> 
> But indoctrination means to teach a person what and how they should believe. My going to church at a young age is not why I’m there today.



If you had gone to Muslim or Jewish church all your childhood, where do you think you would be today?


----------



## j_seph (Oct 11, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I was taught to go to church, family reunions, etc., but not forced to accept, like anything or anyone. If it didn’t come from your heart, you’re just going through the motions and spinning your wheels.
> 
> Staying out of church, school, hunting club meetings and even now work, meant you needed a legitimate reason. If you’re a part of something, be committed to it.
> 
> But indoctrination means to teach a person what and how they should believe. My going to church at a young age is not why I’m there today.


Same for me, I went to the occasional VBS as a kid, maybe once best I can remember. Then with a Wed night group ever so often if they came and picked me up. My parents did not go to church and rest of my family lived 5 hours away. Then as I got old enough to drive, sadly I would go to Wed youth service sometimes for the girls. Then a girl got me into church with her on Sunday mornings mostly and then it was just to see her and be with her. I got conviction back then but would not move and accept it. We broke up later on and I again would go on a Wed night somewhere just to be with friends and the girls. At 19 best friend and I went on a date with couple girls to church one Sunday night. That night I knew I had better accept him. Cannot explain much of it other than I knew I needed Jesus as my savior. I then got out of his tracks and quit living for him and following him until about 4 years ago. I got some major conviction going on and seen where he had been there for me even though I ignored him he had always been with me since 19 years old. I re-dedicated my life, and was amazed at how much happier I became, how much better my life became. Yeah I was having some fun before then, having a blast to be exact. But no way in the last 4 years would I go back to that for anything.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 11, 2018)

j_seph said:


> How do you explain the multitudes that are saved who are not children, who were never really bad people, that are in their right mind and not on medication for mental illnesses, oh and had never been much on going to church?


There is no question that perfectly sane adults turn to God without having been indoctrinated as children.
There is no question that indoctrinating children is a successful "recruitment program".


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 11, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> If you had gone to Muslim or Jewish church all your childhood, where do you think you would be today?


Atheist or Agnostic ??

J/K - indoctrination doesn’t work the way it’s being perceived here, every parent has a responsibility to teach their young the principles that they consider to be valuable. What others think, approve or disapprove about those principles is irrelevant. 

Brainwashing sounds like the argument you intend to make? 

Indoctrination the way it’s intended (teach) actually works if you compare NCHillbilly and myself. 

Obviously, if brainwashing was involved, that concept failed NCHillbilly, so most likely, as much as some want to argue that, it ain’t happening. 

Although brainwashing happens, it’s not isolated to just churches. Plenty of youth right now being brainwashed to hate the other race.


----------



## ky55 (Oct 11, 2018)

j_seph said:


> How do you explain the multitudes that are saved who are not children, who were never really bad people, that are in their right mind and not on medication for mental illnesses, oh and had never been much on going to church?



Walt answered that one just about the same as I would have:



WaltL1 said:


> There is no question that perfectly sane adults turn to God without having been indoctrinated as children.
> There is no question that indoctrinating children is a successful "recruitment program".



And your scripture backs up the indoctrination of children.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 12, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Walt answered that one just about the same as I would have:
> 
> 
> 
> And your scripture backs up the indoctrination of children.


ARE YOU SPEAKING OF THIS?

6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.


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## 660griz (Oct 12, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> I had no choice at all growing up. If the church door was open, I  was in church. Sunday mornings (including Sunday school, not just the sermon,) Sunday nights, Wednesday nights, revivals, bible school, prayer meetings, singings, whatever. The alternative was a whipping and then you went anyway.



Same here. If I could have stayed home, I would have took a whipping.


----------



## ky55 (Oct 12, 2018)

j_seph said:


> ARE YOU SPEAKING OF THIS?
> 
> 6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.



That’s one.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 12, 2018)

660griz said:


> Same here. If I could have stayed home, I would have took a whipping.


Again sounds like good parents. However does that not make "evidence" that it is not so much indoctrination of children? As well as evidence that it is a free will choice? Maybe when y'all are old who knows what will happen. As I have heard say from elders, the older you get the more you start paying attention to the fact that your time is that much shorter in this world.


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## Spotlite (Oct 12, 2018)

ky55 said:


> That’s one.


So what are you teaching yours about the way they should go that’s different that what myself and Jseph teach ours?

Be more specific than “Christian Indoctrination”


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## bullethead (Oct 12, 2018)

When younger, we were all SURE Santa Claus existed and our parents did all they could to feed the passion and continue the ruse.
I was no different growing up and played the part to feed the belief when my Sons were growing up.
But at some point reality gets the better of us and what we were absolutely positively SURE was true turns out to not be so much.
Religion, to me, is the continuation of Santa for adults.


----------



## ky55 (Oct 12, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> So what are you teaching yours about the way they should go that’s different that what myself and Jseph teach ours?
> 
> Be more specific than “Christian Indoctrination”



You both seem to be of very good moral character, so probably almost nothing different, except not to believe in superstitions.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 12, 2018)

bullethead said:


> When younger, we were all SURE Santa Claus existed and our parents did all they could to feed the passion and continue the ruse.
> I was no different growing up and played the part to feed the belief when my Sons were growing up.
> But at some point reality gets the better of us and what we were absolutely positively SURE was true turns out to not be so much.
> Religion, to me, is the continuation of Santa for adults.


My ignorant mind can understand that. But seems all of us grew out of believing in Santa. Even though we got some great gifts to make us happy while we believed in him. Yet many still believed in Jesus and never lost that, and some of us found Jesus. Weird we didn't continue or start to believe in him so we could get a new GI Joe doll, a new bicycle or a new car. 

One thing I have learned over her in the AAA is that y'all are as strong about the "faith" y'all have in your beliefs as we Christians are in ours. I can respect y'all for that and yet not agree on one ounce of it. I also realize that no matter what we say that it probably won't matter a dime on your faith just as it will not on ours to change our beliefs. One thing we have in our faith is a higher power that can change that and we have hope. I remember one in here that once was but now is not the same so that is a little more evidence, at least to me that there is hope. Especially with those who were raised in church and once believed, even those that believed in Santa, the tooth fairy, and the Easter bunny. I sure miss those gifts, the money for a toof, and all the boiled eggs and chocolate I could handle but praise be to God I got a greater Gift then all of those coming to me. Y'all have a blessed Friday and weekend. Think I may leave out of here early and go watch for a deer.


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## ambush80 (Oct 12, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> So what are you teaching yours about the way they should go that’s different that what myself and Jseph teach ours?
> 
> Be more specific than “Christian Indoctrination”



I'm teaching my daughter to be analytical and skeptical. I never tell her that the stories she hears in Sunday School are false, but I ask her if they seem plausible.   When we went to the American Indian museum in DC and we read things and watched videos about their Creation Stories I asked her to compare them to the one in the Bible.  I asked her if she thought they could be real.  She said "They're probably metaphors".


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 12, 2018)

j_seph said:


> My ignorant mind can understand that. But seems all of us grew out of believing in Santa. Even though we got some great gifts to make us happy while we believed in him. Yet many still believed in Jesus and never lost that, and some of us found Jesus. Weird we didn't continue or start to believe in him so we could get a new GI Joe doll, a new bicycle or a new car.



You put away childish things.  Now you get Grace, Forgiveness, and Eternal Life.



j_seph said:


> One thing I have learned over her in the AAA is that y'all are as strong about the "faith" y'all have in your beliefs as we Christians are in ours. I can respect y'all for that and yet not agree on one ounce of it.



We should talk bout different kinds of faith.  Faith the airplane will stay aloft, faith the chair will support my behind, faith my car will start, faith a rock will fall down, faith in my lucky crankbait, faith in blowing on dice, faith in my lucky rabbit's foot.  They're all kinds of faith, but are they the same?   Do you use different criteria to establish them?



j_seph said:


> I also realize that no matter what we say that it probably won't matter a dime on your faith just as it will not on ours to change our beliefs.



A demonstration would be a good start.  I don't believe in Multiverse Theory completely, but I have done the Double Slit experiment and I have witnessed with my own eyes that light acts as a wave and a particle at the same time.  I read about why that is and I understand some (not all) of it but I am convinced that they are on the right track in their description of what is happening.  I know that there are gaps and questions in the Theory of Evolution but I'm convinced by what I've read about it that it's the best explanation for what we observe.
You might say that we A/A's have a Theory of God.  We are constantly testing it and looking for evidence.  So far it seems like alchemy or astrology.



j_seph said:


> One thing we have in our faith is a higher power that can change that and we have hope. I remember one in here that once was but now is not the same so that is a little more evidence, at least to me that there is hope. Especially with those who were raised in church and once believed, even those that believed in Santa, the tooth fairy, and the Easter bunny. I sure miss those gifts, the money for a toof, and all the boiled eggs and chocolate I could handle but praise be to God I got a greater Gift then all of those coming to me. Y'all have a blessed Friday and weekend. Think I may leave out of here early and go watch for a deer.



Stick you a deer and be safe.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 12, 2018)

j_seph said:


> My ignorant mind can understand that. But seems all of us grew out of believing in Santa. Even though we got some great gifts to make us happy while we believed in him. Yet many still believed in Jesus and never lost that, and some of us found Jesus. Weird we didn't continue or start to believe in him so we could get a new GI Joe doll, a new bicycle or a new car.
> 
> One thing I have learned over her in the AAA is that y'all are as strong about the "faith" y'all have in your beliefs as we Christians are in ours. I can respect y'all for that and yet not agree on one ounce of it. I also realize that no matter what we say that it probably won't matter a dime on your faith just as it will not on ours to change our beliefs. One thing we have in our faith is a higher power that can change that and we have hope. I remember one in here that once was but now is not the same so that is a little more evidence, at least to me that there is hope. Especially with those who were raised in church and once believed, even those that believed in Santa, the tooth fairy, and the Easter bunny. I sure miss those gifts, the money for a toof, and all the boiled eggs and chocolate I could handle but praise be to God I got a greater Gift then all of those coming to me. Y'all have a blessed Friday and weekend. Think I may leave out of here early and go watch for a deer.


Did you REALLY ever grow out of believing in Santa or did you just graduate on to a Super Santa?
Yeah you have moved on past the gifts like GI Joe but possibly for greater gifts like everlasting life and a heaven with rewards of spending eternity with all the loved ones who have passed and all those who will come later.

He knows when you are sleeping..he knows when... Ya better watch out!


----------



## ky55 (Oct 12, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Did you REALLY ever grow out of believing in Santa or did you just graduate on to a Super Santa?
> Yeah you have moved on past the gifts like GI Joe but possibly for greater gifts like everlasting life and a heaven with rewards of spending eternity with all the loved ones who have passed and all those who will come later.
> 
> He knows when you are sleeping..he knows when... Ya better watch out!



Brand-new Santa, bigger stuff under the tree!!


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 12, 2018)

ky55 said:


> You both seem to be of very good moral character, so probably almost nothing different, except not to believe in superstitions.




Thanks, and same here for you...

And that's my point, sort of. "Superstitions" - if you teach your child that religion / Jesus is a superstition, you are indirectly indoctrinating them to have a point of view about religion.

Bullet explains below how he found his way out of Santa, I don't remember any of us being taught there was no Santa, we never got the "do you think its possible to come down the chimney", let alone "that many in one night"...........we played the game and figured it out on our own.





bullethead said:


> When younger, we were all SURE Santa Claus existed and our parents did all they could to feed the passion and continue the ruse.
> I was no different growing up and played the part to feed the belief when my Sons were growing up.
> But at some point reality gets the better of us and what we were absolutely positively SURE was true turns out to not be so much.






ambush80 said:


> I'm teaching my daughter to be analytical and skeptical. I never tell her that the stories she hears in Sunday School are false, but I ask her if they seem plausible.   When we went to the American Indian museum in DC and we read things and watched videos about their Creation Stories I asked her to compare them to the one in the Bible.  I asked her if she thought they could be real.  She said "They're probably metaphors".



So instead of letting her make her own mind up without influence, you continue to ask her this and compare the science that you say is true..............in reality, what are you doing that we get accused of?


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 12, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Thanks, and same here for you...
> 
> And that's my point, sort of. "Superstitions" - if you teach your child that religion / Jesus is a superstition, you are indirectly indoctrinating them to have a point of view about religion.
> 
> Bullet explains below how he found his way out of Santa, I don't remember any of us being taught there was no Santa, we never got the "do you think its possible to come down the chimney", let alone "that many in one night"...........we played the game and figured it out on our own.



How about you teach your child about superstition and then teach them about religion separately.  Seeing the similarities between them will be self evident.

If you played the game and figured it out on your own, why do maintain the belief in stuff like the Ark or resurrections?



Spotlite said:


> So instead of letting her make her own mind up without influence, you continue to ask her this and compare the science that you say is true..............in reality, what are you doing that we get accused of?



I do let her make up her own mind.  I don't tell her that Jesus didn't walk on water.  I aske her if she thinks its possible.  When she was young she used to say "Yes". I asked her how and she said "magic".  She knows that science isn't the absolute truth, but she believes it to be the best tool to figure out what is true.  That was her conclusion.  It was simple.  I asked her "How do we know what's true?".  Then you go about talking about the different ways to find out what's true.  You can listen to people you trust but ultimately you have to test it for yourself.  When a child starts asking questions about the Bible they are told to believe with "faith" but not the kind of faith about rocks falling, a special kind, one that can't be proven.  Sounds like a bad start.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 12, 2018)

For those that love research. Looks like there must have been those who did not know about Santa, that actually heard about a man named Jesus. Funny how Christianity can grow especially to those who were not drug to church, and to those who once worshipped other Gods. Really remakable how that those who can face death for practicing Christianity still do and those areas continue to grow in the face of evil.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/01/22...-christianity-not-shrinking-growing-stronger/


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 12, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Bullet explains below how he found his way out of Santa, I don't remember any of us being taught there was no Santa, we never got the "do you think its possible to come down the chimney", let alone "that many in one night"...........we played the game and figured it out on our own.



And Bingo was his name-O. Now, substitute "organized religion of your choice" for Santa.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 12, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> And Bingo was his name-O. Now, substitute "organized religion of your choice" for Santa.


Opinions don't count though.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 12, 2018)

j_seph said:


> For those that love research. Looks like there must have been those who did not know about Santa, that actually heard about a man named Jesus. Funny how Christianity can grow especially to those who were not drug to church, and to those who once worshipped other Gods. Really remakable how that those who can face death for practicing Christianity still do and those areas continue to grow in the face of evil.
> 
> http://thefederalist.com/2018/01/22...-christianity-not-shrinking-growing-stronger/


This is an interesting statistic -


> One-third of Americans hold that the Bible is the actual word of God.


When you consider -


> Christianity is the most adhered to religion in the United States, with 75% of polled American adults identifying themselves as Christian in 2015


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 12, 2018)

j_seph said:


> For those that love research. Looks like there must have been those who did not know about Santa, that actually heard about a man named Jesus. Funny how Christianity can grow especially to those who were not drug to church, and to those who once worshipped other Gods. Really remakable how that those who can face death for practicing Christianity still do and those areas continue to grow in the face of evil.
> 
> http://thefederalist.com/2018/01/22...-christianity-not-shrinking-growing-stronger/


The reality is some think it is just a story that we believe in and the only way for them to relate is through a Santa or Big Foot story. It just keeps illustrating their lack of the understanding and knowledge of the subject they condemn.

They`re swinging at the ball, the problem is, they are in left field and think they are on home plate.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 12, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> How about you teach your child about superstition and then teach them about religion separately.  Seeing the similarities between them will be self evident.
> 
> If you played the game and figured it out on your own, why do maintain the belief in stuff like the Ark or resurrections?


It is known that a flood was in that region. The argument is locally or globally. I am realistic, it was the whole earth as they knew it. 

Religion isn't a game to me, it works for me. There is too much unexplainable happenings in my life to rely on the unanswered "maybes" of science and any other nay-sayer. If they are coincidence, they sure seem to coincide the same way every time. Those answers are not there in the books you trust in.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 12, 2018)

j_seph said:


> For those that love research. Looks like there must have been those who did not know about Santa, that actually heard about a man named Jesus. Funny how Christianity can grow especially to those who were not drug to church, and to those who once worshipped other Gods. Really remakable how that those who can face death for practicing Christianity still do and those areas continue to grow in the face of evil.
> 
> http://thefederalist.com/2018/01/22...-christianity-not-shrinking-growing-stronger/


If you know the history of your religion and how it spread...you'd be embarrassed to know how those non Christians gave up their gods.

And more to the point, how many non christians died while never giving up their gods. Did they die for a lie? Who would do that? See how it sounds when people die for other religions?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 12, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> This is an interesting statistic -
> 
> When you consider -


Yeah 2/3 just go along along with it


----------



## bullethead (Oct 12, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> The reality is some think it is just a story that we believe in and the only way for them to relate is through a Santa or Big Foot story. It just keeps illustrating their lack of the understanding and knowledge of the subject they condemn.
> 
> They`re swinging at the ball, the problem is, they are in left field and think they are on home plate.


It is absolutely not from a lack of understanding. It IS in fact because of expanded understanding that we are able to stand back, take a good look at all of it, and see things that were missed when we were more one track minded.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 12, 2018)

bullethead said:


> It is absolutely not from a lack of understanding. It IS in fact because of expanded understanding that we are able to stand back, take a good look at all of it, and see things that were missed when we were more one track minded.


Nah......you don’t really know what this is.

You’re focused on stories, gifts and wow factors. We hardly ever talk about that stuff.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 12, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Nah......you don’t really know what this is.
> 
> You’re focused on stories, gifts and wow factors. We hardly ever talk about that stuff.


Oh, I am so glad you are here to set that straight.

Just remember, I, we were you at one time. We have moved on. I can see how and why you wouldn't and couldn't believe that and the reason you have to make excuses for us. But the truth is the truth.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 12, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> The reality is some think it is just a story that we believe in and the only way for them to relate is through a Santa or Big Foot story. It just keeps illustrating their lack of the understanding and knowledge of the subject they condemn.
> 
> They`re swinging at the ball, the problem is, they are in left field and think they are on home plate.



You have had personal experiences that proves that God is real and working in your life.  Is that pretty good understanding?


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 12, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Oh, I am so glad you are here to set that straight.
> 
> Just remember, I, we were you at one time. We have moved on. I can see how and why you wouldn't and couldn't believe that and the reason you have to make excuses for us. But the truth is the truth.


I don’t know what you were or weren’t before, and I’m not real sure how you’re so convinced that you had what I now have.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 12, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t know what you were or weren’t before, and I’m not real sure how you’re so convinced that you had what I now have.



Of course everybody's experiences are unique, but we can say things like "I didn't like olives as a kid but I love them now" and someone might say "Me too!  I know just what you're talking about" and you wouldn't think anything of it.  What you're doing is saying you like olives and someone says "I used to like olives but I don't anymore" and you are telling them "Maybe you just never like olives the right way to begin with".  Doesn't make sense, does it?


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 12, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Of course everybody's experiences are unique, but we can say things like "I didn't like olives as a kid but I love them now" and someone might say "Me too!  I know just what you're talking about" and you wouldn't think anything of it.  What you're doing is saying you like olives and someone says "I used to like olives but I don't anymore" and you are telling them "Maybe you just never like olives the right way to begin with".  Doesn't make sense, does it?


That if they didn’t get an olive. Might have been a green persimmon - J/k

But I get what you’re saying.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 12, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t know what you were or weren’t before, and I’m not real sure how you’re so convinced that you had what I now have.


Because many things that you have shared in here,  I can relate to. Not exactly the same experiences but overwhelming feelings, a sense of immense glory, owing positive experiences to God etc etc. A feeling that God was involved in my life.


----------



## ky55 (Oct 12, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Because many things that you have shared in here,  I can relate to. Not exactly the same experiences but overwhelming feelings, a sense of immense glory, owing positive experiences to God etc etc. A feeling that God was involved in my life.



Yeah, that sounds good, but it wasn’t really, really real like the real believers.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 12, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Because many things that you have shared in here,  I can relate to. Not exactly the same experiences but overwhelming feelings, a sense of immense glory, owing positive experiences to God etc etc. A feeling that God was involved in my life.




I’m not familiar with the overwhelming feelings that you always refer to. I get overwhelming feelings catching fish, but that’s not any type of description that I’ve ever experienced in religion. 

I’m not doubting your former religion at all. Just saying those descriptions are not me. Giving God credit for positive things, yes I can relate to that one.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 12, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Yeah, that sounds good, but it wasn’t really, really real like the real believers.



I love the fabricated arguments lol ?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 12, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Yeah, that sounds good, but it wasn’t really, really real like the real believers.


And I get that. As a believer I could not fathom NOT believing ...until I didnt believe. I could not imagine anyone saying that they once believed and now they don't. I've said the same words to others that I hear said to me now.
I get it.
I am also someone I never thought I could be and I am alright with it. It's not anything negative.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 12, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I’m not familiar with the overwhelming feelings that you always refer to. I get overwhelming feelings catching fish, but that’s not any type of description that I’ve ever experienced in religion.
> 
> I’m not doubting your former religion at all. Just saying those descriptions are not me. Giving God credit for positive things, yes I can relate to that one.


Have you ever been overrun with emotions that just came out of nowhere?
It happened to me when I was about 12 or 13. I thought God overwhelmed me. Thats what I attributed it to anyway.


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## ky55 (Oct 12, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I love the fabricated arguments lol ?



Yep, I’m sure you do....



Spotlite said:


> Nah......you don’t really know what this is.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 12, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Have you ever been overrun with emotions that just came out of nowhere?
> It happened to me when I was about 12 or 13. I thought God overwhelmed me. Thats what I attributed it to anyway.


Yes. But I usually knew the reason for them.


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## Spotlite (Oct 12, 2018)

Nice try, but your post below indicates the ole "not real Christian" argument. That is fabricated. I am saying he doesn't really know what this is that I have if he hasn't had it. His continued post indicates that he may have actually experienced something different.  



ky55 said:


> Yep, I’m sure you do....





ky55 said:


> *Yeah, that sounds good, but it wasn’t really, really real like the real believers.*





Spotlite said:


> Nah......you don’t really know what this is.
> 
> You’re focused on stories, gifts and wow factors. We hardly ever talk about that stuff.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 12, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Nice try, but your post below indicates the ole "not real Christian" argument. That is fabricated. I am saying he doesn't really know what this is that I have if he hasn't had it. His continued post indicates that he may have actually experienced something different.


If not unique to the individual, what are those experiences?
Maybe you had a vision.
Maybe Jesus came to you in a dream.
Maybe you wept uncontrollably.
Or any number of other things.
But all would have been unique to you and attributed to something going on in your life.
Different than mine.
Different than everyone elses.
But the same in that it was something that you could relate it to God.


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## bullethead (Oct 12, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Yes. But I usually knew the reason for them.


For example:....


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 13, 2018)

https://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/

_An argument similar to this is often arises when people attempt to define religious groups. In some Christian groups, for example, there is an idea that faith is permanent, that once one becomes a Christian one cannot fall away. Apparent counter-examples to this idea, people who appear to have faith but subsequently lose it, are written off using the ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy: they didn’t really have faith, they weren’t true Christians. The claim that faith cannot be lost is thus preserved from refutation. Given such an approach, this claim is unfalsifiable, there is no possible refutation of it. _


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## Israel (Oct 13, 2018)

I've had overwhelming feelings. Some of such elation I feel I'll dissolve in joy and end a puddle on the floor.

I've also had feelings I'd prefer, at the time, to not have. Some of such deep and awful dread as I wonder if there can ever be a bottom in the abyss. And that hitting it to annihilation would be O! so much more desirable...but_ I know that _desire here...means less than nothing.

I have had experience of so little feeling at all as a man in the doldrums might where all seems so weary and flat without any motion to catch one's eye. And my only sense is of "so what?" So, What!

Feelings of such burning anger I feel I will leave nothing but a bitter piece of ash behind.

Feelings of such vulnerability and tenderness I cannot but weep at any word heard. And blubbering is my only response.

Feelings of pride, feelings of shame.

Feelings of awe, feelings of wonder, feelings of dread, and feelings of feeling so very very little. Many, many feelings.

How am I not the most common of common man?

Where once I struggled to not be, nor see myself as common at all, another prevailed.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 13, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Yeah 2/3 just go along along with it


How do you ensure your particular religion stands the test of time?
Allow it to morph and bend and stretch to the changes in society.
God may or may not be "man made" but Christianity sure is. And man is changing it as we go.


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## Israel (Oct 13, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> How do you ensure your particular religion stands the test of time?
> Allow it to morph and bend and stretch to the changes in society.
> God may or may not be "man made" but Christianity sure is. And man is changing it as we go.



http://forum.gon.com/threads/this-too-shall-pass.873774/

Ambush replied "you are trying to start your own religion" or something to that effect in perceiving a refusal of identity with that _thing_.

Hardly.

Instead of sight from practice seen and known to lead to indication of what is unseen and unknown, it is quite the reverse.

In a world where christianity can be identified _by the world_ is coming all that the world can neither receive, nor know.


----------



## welderguy (Oct 13, 2018)

Feelings are deceptive. They cannot be relied on. They come from the heart(not the blood pump). The heart is deceptive.
Belief has far more depth than just feelings. It is something that lives within a person and it is Eternal(never dying). Feelings can die. This belief I refer to never will. It is "sealed".


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## WaltL1 (Oct 13, 2018)

welderguy said:


> Feelings are deceptive. They cannot be relied on. They come from the heart(not the blood pump). The heart is deceptive.
> Belief has far more depth than just feelings. It is something that lives within a person and it is Eternal(never dying). Feelings can die. This belief I refer to never will. It is "sealed".


Your unprovable claim ignores all the people that used to believe and don't anymore.
You will explain that away with another unprovable claim.
Value = 0


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## welderguy (Oct 13, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Your unprovable claim ignores all the people that used to believe and don't anymore.
> You will explain that away with another unprovable claim.
> Value = 0



If they believed, then they believe still, even if their deceptive heart thinks they don't.


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## Israel (Oct 13, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Your unprovable claim ignores all the people that used to believe and don't anymore.
> You will explain that away with another unprovable claim.
> Value = 0


Yes. It all becomes _a wash._

_It must._

Every _thing_ that can be "set up" has within itself the unremitting invitation to being toppled by what is not set up...but is.

The believer learns he is occupying where_ he is _of no value, a zero, a mere placeholder...moved instead to the place of his value, that the One of all value might manifest His necessity there...in that place where the believer learns he is nothing to give.

We do indeed _occupy here_...but live elsewhere. Now you see us. Now you do not.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 13, 2018)

welderguy said:


> If they believed, then they believe still, even if their deceptive heart thinks they don't.


Like I said...…...


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## j_seph (Oct 15, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Your unprovable claim ignores all the people that used to believe and don't anymore.
> You will explain that away with another unprovable claim.
> Value = 0


To believe and to be saved are two different things


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## WaltL1 (Oct 15, 2018)

j_seph said:


> To believe and to be saved are two different things


Whats that popular scripture? Oh yeah John 3:16


> *John 3:16* 16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


And please, don't explain to me that it doesn't mean exactly what it says.


----------



## ky55 (Oct 15, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Whats that popular scripture? Oh yeah John 3:16
> 
> And please, don't explain to me that it doesn't mean exactly what it says.



Maybe Romans 10:9 means something else too?


----------



## j_seph (Oct 15, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Whats that popular scripture? Oh yeah John 3:16
> 
> And please, don't explain to me that it doesn't mean exactly what it says.


To be saved you must first believe. As I said to believe and to be saved are two different things.

The first thing that should be obvious is that the English rendering of this verse begins with the word “for.” That means that it is the conclusion of an argument. It’s the summary statement. So, we need to look at this verse in its larger context. Here is the whole passage:


_“If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John 3:12-18)_


“Whosever believeth”


Let’s start by addressing the heart of the argument and then we’ll get into the details. The word “whosever” appears twice in this passage. In both instances, it is used in regard to faith – “whosoever believes.” The implication of this English phrase is that anyone who wishes to may exert his will and freedom of choice in order to believe something about Christ. Anyone who would like to can exercise his or her right and faculty to have (or not have) faith. The consequences of their faith (or lack of it) are then the result of that person’s free and unencumbered choice.


But, there’s a problem. And, it’s a big problem. The New Testament was not written in English, any less the King’s English. It was written in Greek. And, there is no Greek equivalent for the English word “whosoever.”


That’s important. So much so that it bears repeating.


There is no Greek equivalent for the English word “whosoever.”


The Apostle John did not write, “Whosoever believeth.” That word construction was never part of his original letter. What he did write was, “_pas ho pisteuoon_.” The two little Greek words “pas ho” are literally translated “all the.” “Pisteuoon” is a form of the word “pisteuo,” the verb form of “pistis,” or “faith.”


The King James translators’ choice of the single word “whosoever” to translate the two-word phrase “pas ho” was not an entirely errant decision. In the King’s English, “whosoever” did not have the connotation of randomness or free choice that it has come to represent in contemporary English. Originally, “whosoever” designated a particular group – as in “whosoever possesses these certain qualities.” In this case, the group included only those who believed, as opposed to those who did not.


But, more to the point, “pas ho” simply does not mean “anyone at all who chooses to exercise their choice.” It specifically means “all the” and it serves to designate a particular group of people who share a defining characteristic -“faith” or “believing.”


So, when we read, “whosoever believeth,” we must understand that what John literally wrote was “all the believing.” In other words, the benefits of God’s love are not indiscriminately available to anyone who chooses to possess them. Only the particular group – “all the believing” – are gifted with eternal life.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 15, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Whats that popular scripture? Oh yeah John 3:16
> 
> And please, don't explain to me that it doesn't mean exactly what it says.


“Shall” is not automatic


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 15, 2018)

j_seph said:


> To be saved you must first believe. As I said to believe and to be saved are two different things.
> 
> The first thing that should be obvious is that the English rendering of this verse begins with the word “for.” That means that it is the conclusion of an argument. It’s the summary statement. So, we need to look at this verse in its larger context. Here is the whole passage:
> 
> ...



<iframe width="560" height="315" src="



" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## ambush80 (Oct 15, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> “Shall” is not automatic



You get one too.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="



" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 15, 2018)

Folks say the Bible is the word of God and should be believed just as it is written. Then they spend a lot of time explaining that a simple, clearly written verse doesn't really say what it says. It has to be "interpreted" by some convoluted, complicated, biased process in order to know that it doesn't really mean what it actually says.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 15, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> Folks say the Bible is the word of God and should be believed just as it is written. Then they spend a lot of time explaining that a simple, clearly written verse doesn't really say what it says. It has to be "interpreted" by some convoluted, complicated, biased process in order to know that it doesn't really mean what it actually says.



"So simple a child can understand".  (Provided he knows the original Greek...)


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## Spotlite (Oct 15, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> Folks say the Bible is the word of God and should be believed just as it is written. Then they spend a lot of time explaining that a simple, clearly written verse doesn't really say what it says. It has to be "interpreted" by some convoluted, complicated, biased process in order to know that it doesn't really mean what it actually says.


Define “shall”

We are not the ones struggling with it though.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 15, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Define “shall”
> 
> We are not the ones struggling with it though.



plan to, intend to, or expect to: I shall go later.
will have to, is determined to, or definitely will: You shall do it. He shall do it.
(in laws, directives, etc.) must; is or are obliged to: The meetings of the council shall be public.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 15, 2018)

j_seph said:


> To be saved you must first believe. As I said to believe and to be saved are two different things.
> 
> The first thing that should be obvious is that the English rendering of this verse begins with the word “for.” That means that it is the conclusion of an argument. It’s the summary statement. So, we need to look at this verse in its larger context. Here is the whole passage:
> 
> ...


Ok you've convinced me.
Parts of the Bible are just man made crap.
Now lets discuss how much of it is man made crap.
Just that one scripture?


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 15, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Define “shall”
> 
> We are not the ones struggling with it though.



I would guess that believers who disagree with you number more than that agree with you on what it means, particularly in relation to this problematic verse.  I think nonbelievers agree on what "shall" means.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 15, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Define “shall”
> 
> We are not the ones struggling with it though.





NCHillbilly said:


> Folks say the Bible is the word of God and should be believed just as it is written. Then they spend a lot of time explaining that a simple, clearly written verse doesn't really say what it says. It has to be "interpreted" by some convoluted, complicated, biased process in order to know that it doesn't really mean what it actually says.


Gee I wonder how there got to be 40,000+ denominations and disagreement on darn near everything.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 15, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Gee I wonder how there got to be 40,000+ denominations and disagreement on darn near everything.


They all pretty much agree about some things, though, like collecting money from the flock.

God probably shakes his head a lot and resists the urge to stomp the corporate headquarters of churches.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 15, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Gee I wonder how there got to be 40,000+ denominations and disagreement on darn near everything.


The same way everyone looks at any regulation or code and has difference in opinions.

Human nature, Walt. Most Christians don’t agree 100% in detail in every little aspect. But what requires them to?


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 15, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I would guess that believers who disagree with you number more than that agree with you on what it means, particularly in relation to this problematic verse.  I think nonbelievers agree on what "shall" means.


Does it make the scripture wrong though? 

What do non believers agree on about “shall”?


----------



## j_seph (Oct 15, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Does it make the scripture wrong though?
> 
> What do non believers agree on about “shall”?


They Shall not believe
They Shall conform to this world


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 15, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> The same way everyone looks at any regulation or code and has difference in opinions.
> 
> Human nature, Walt. Most Christians don’t agree 100% in detail in every little aspect. But what requires them to?


Yes the men that wrote the regs and codes were not capable of wording it to alleviate all the interpretations that we can come up with.
It appears the Bible has the same problem.

"Every little aspect"???????
Come on now really?


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 15, 2018)

j_seph said:


> They Shall not believe
> They Shall conform to this world


Just like everybody else. Including you.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 15, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Does it make the scripture wrong though?
> 
> What do non believers agree on about “shall”?


j_seph just explained to you how John 3:16 as written in the Bible is wrong.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 15, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> j_seph just explained to you how John 3:16 as written in the Bible is wrong.


You cannot read one sentence out of the bible or any book for that matter and determine what is about or what it is trying to tell you. Example:
"Next night we stuck a picture, which Tom drawed in blood, of a skull
and  crossbones  on  the  front  door;  and  next  night  another  one  of  a
coffin  on  the  back  door.  I  never  see  a  family  in  such  a  sweat." You can tell who is in it, but you cannot tell why he did that or what happened after he did that. Heck ya might even be able to tell what the name of the story it is from with those 2 sentences but ya still cannot tell or understand the story even with 2 sentences.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 15, 2018)

j_seph said:


> You cannot read one sentence out of the bible or any book for that matter and determine what is about or what it is trying to tell you. Example:
> "Next night we stuck a picture, which Tom drawed in blood, of a skull
> and  crossbones  on  the  front  door;  and  next  night  another  one  of  a
> coffin  on  the  back  door.  I  never  see  a  family  in  such  a  sweat." You can tell who is in it, but you cannot tell why he did that or what happened after he did that. Heck ya might even be able to tell what the name of the story it is from with those 2 sentences but ya still cannot tell or understand the story even with 2 sentences.


So which part of your example above is wrong information?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 15, 2018)

j_seph said:


> You cannot read one sentence out of the bible or any book for that matter and determine what is about or what it is trying to tell you. Example:
> "Next night we stuck a picture, which Tom drawed in blood, of a skull
> and  crossbones  on  the  front  door;  and  next  night  another  one  of  a
> coffin  on  the  back  door.  I  never  see  a  family  in  such  a  sweat." You can tell who is in it, but you cannot tell why he did that or what happened after he did that. Heck ya might even be able to tell what the name of the story it is from with those 2 sentences but ya still cannot tell or understand the story even with 2 sentences.


You are onto something by comparing the bible to any other book.
The work of a god would stand out.


----------



## ky55 (Oct 15, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> j_seph just explained to you how John 3:16 as written in the Bible is wrong.



Nothing yet on Romans 10:9?
Right or wrong?


----------



## ky55 (Oct 15, 2018)

j_seph said:


> You cannot read one sentence out of the bible or any book for that matter and determine what is about or what it is trying to tell you. Example:
> "Next night we stuck a picture, which Tom drawed in blood, of a skull
> and  crossbones  on  the  front  door;  and  next  night  another  one  of  a
> coffin  on  the  back  door.  I  never  see  a  family  in  such  a  sweat." You can tell who is in it, but you cannot tell why he did that or what happened after he did that. Heck ya might even be able to tell what the name of the story it is from with those 2 sentences but ya still cannot tell or understand the story even with 2 sentences.



John 3:16 and Romans 10:9 are two of the main scriptures that Christians carry around and throw out first when “witnessing” to sinners, are they not?
How can they not stand alone and be easily understood by the very people that y’all believe need them the most?


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 15, 2018)

ky55 said:


> John 3:16 and Romans 10:9 are two of the main scriptures that Christians carry around and throw out first when “witnessing” to sinners, are they not?
> How can they not stand alone and be easily understood by the very people that y’all believe need them the most?


Those people I see at the ball games with their John 3:16 signs are gonna be really disappointed.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 15, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> j_seph just explained to you how John 3:16 as written in the Bible is wrong.


He didn’t say it was wrong. 

This is just a crutch the non believers use as an excuse.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 15, 2018)

ky55 said:


> John 3:16 and Romans 10:9 are two of the main scriptures that Christians carry around and throw out first when “witnessing” to sinners, are they not?
> How can they not stand alone and be easily understood by the very people that y’all believe need them the most?


Care to elaborate on how shall becomes automatic? And they’re not stand alone. We’ve been telling y’all for a long time to use all of it together instead of a couple scriptures. You’re leaving an entire book out if you stand alone in those two scriptures.

The Christians are not the ones struggling here lol ?


----------



## j_seph (Oct 15, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Nothing yet on Romans 10:9?
> Right or wrong?


again you cannot read one sentence and make any claim
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 
Believing in the heart is much more than thinking in your mind you believe in something.
Go on down to 
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 

Got to have faith, got to believe in heart not think

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

How can you hear the word of God when all you are seeking and searching for is just the opposite?


----------



## j_seph (Oct 15, 2018)

ky55 said:


> John 3:16 and Romans 10:9 are two of the main scriptures that Christians carry around and throw out first when “witnessing” to sinners, are they not?
> How can they not stand alone and be easily understood by the very people that y’all believe need them the most?


As Christian I have not used either of those for witnessing!!!!!!!! 
Surprising ain't it that your wide brush did not cover this side of the wall. Yes God's word is powerful and the truth. But only words to a sinner until someone actually testifies what the Lord has done for them and others in their lives.
Sort of like the guy that got visited by the church members many times as they wereonly trying to recruit for themselves just as Brother David mentioned in his other post. One young man got a burden for this guy, he went to talk to him. The next Sunday after many trips by the others to no avail the man walked into church and got saved that morning. They asked why after so many visits that the one the young man made was all it took, what did he say different. The man said I opened the door and he just stood their crying. Because he had the burden for him, it came from the heart and through love. The man could feel it and that was what it took. There is power in a testimony from God.


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## ky55 (Oct 15, 2018)

j_seph said:


> As Christian I have not used either of those for witnessing!!!!!!!!
> Surprising ain't it that your wide brush did not cover this side of the wall. Yes God's word is powerful and the truth. But only words to a sinner until someone actually testifies what the Lord has done for them and others in their lives.
> Sort of like the guy that got visited by the church members many times as they wereonly trying to recruit for themselves just as Brother David mentioned in his other post. One young man got a burden for this guy, he went to talk to him. The next Sunday after many trips by the others to no avail the man walked into church and got saved that morning. They asked why after so many visits that the one the young man made was all it took, what did he say different. The man said I opened the door and he just stood their crying. Because he had the burden for him, it came from the heart and through love. The man could feel it and that was what it took. There is power in a testimony from God.



Looks like some of us have been leaving out the required superstitions and mysticism.
Some things aren’t as simple as they seem?

“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31).



Spotlite said:


> Care to elaborate on how shall becomes automatic?



Spotlite, is “will” automatic?


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## ky55 (Oct 15, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Sort of like the guy that got visited by the church members many times as they wereonly trying to recruit for themselves just as Brother David mentioned in his other post. One young man got a burden for this guy, he went to talk to him. The next Sunday after many trips by the others to no avail the man walked into church and got saved that morning. They asked why after so many visits that the one the young man made was all it took, what did he say different. The man said I opened the door and he just stood their crying. Because he had the burden for him, it came from the heart and through love. The man could feel it and that was what it took. There is power in a testimony from God.



I can agree with you that a testimony from a god would be very powerful, but another anecdote is not.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 15, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> He didn’t say it was wrong.
> 
> This is just a crutch the non believers use as an excuse.


He explained why it doesn't mean what it clearly says.
That means, taken on its own, its wrong.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 15, 2018)

j_seph said:


> again you cannot read one sentence and make any claim
> 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
> Believing in the heart is much more than thinking in your mind you believe in something.
> Go on down to
> ...


A heart does not believe. It is a muscle. It pumps blood.
You believe with your brain.


> 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God


You hear with your ears, your brain then processes what you hear.

Im not edumacated but this is really basic stuff.


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## bullethead (Oct 15, 2018)

j_seph said:


> again you cannot read one sentence and make any claim
> 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
> Believing in the heart is much more than thinking in your mind you believe in something.
> Go on down to
> ...


No god wrote those words.
No god blinked anything that even resembles a bible into existence.
You are taking the writings of an ancient culture and giving them credit to a god. What you rely on took 1500years to assemble! 5 times longer than we have been a country. Do you realize how much influence whatever was happening during that time span affected those writings? Can you imagine ALL the things that were written during thise times which told different stories abiut the same events, and different opinions of the same people and different supernatural events that took place during those same times?? The amounts are staggering. It was what people did in those times!! It was their version of movies and entertainment and folklore. 
God, a god, gods, your god did NONE of it.


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## Spotlite (Oct 15, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> He explained why it doesn't mean what it clearly says.
> That means, taken on its own, its wrong.


Not sure how you got that out of him explaining that to believe and to be saved are two different things. But ok.


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## Spotlite (Oct 15, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Spotlite, is “will” automatic?


No it isn’t ?

Will and shall is something that will and shall happen, not something that just did happen.

If you’re going to use scripture, get them all and put them together.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 15, 2018)

I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but my interpretation of John 3:16 is that if you believe in Jesus, you will not be cast into He!l. But what do I know? If I see "Thou shall not kill," it leads me to believe that I shouldn't kill people. If I see "GA code 1234:xyz-4275: Anyone who has been convicted of a felony, and is in possession of a firearm, shall be guilty of a crime and punished accordingly," I figure that if I'm a felon, I shouldn't tote guns around unless I want to go to prison. That's my interpretation of "shall," along with 99.9% of the world's population that didn't read about how thou shall not make up statistics.


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## ky55 (Oct 15, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> No it isn’t ?
> 
> Will and shall is something that will and shall happen, not something that just did happen.
> 
> If you’re going to use scripture, get them all and put them together.



Ok, it’s your story so you can tell it however you want.
Make sure you tell all the poor sinners how they are being misinformed by the scriptures about the requirements for their salvation. Tell them they need to get them all and put them together.
And make sure you tell them that contrary to those scriptures, belief isn’t enough.


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## Spotlite (Oct 15, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Ok, it’s your story so you can tell it however you want.
> Make sure you tell all the poor sinners how they are being misinformed by the scriptures about the requirements for their salvation. Tell them they need to get them all and put them together.
> And make sure you tell them that contrary to those scriptures, belief isn’t enough.


So we are taking scripture reading lessons from atheist now lol. Hilarious ?


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## bullethead (Oct 16, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> So we are taking scripture reading lessons from atheist now lol. Hilarious ?


It's like the kid you knew growing up that was always in trouble,  and 20 years later he is a police officer or judge. Or the guy that started on the production line and is now the boss of the plant. Knowing both sides gives an advantage.
You are trying to talk your way out of a ticket or grumbling about What does the Boss know....when in all three of these instances you are dealing with a person who has been there and done that and knows at least as much as you do.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 16, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> So we are taking scripture reading lessons from atheist now lol. Hilarious ?


I know right!
Because Christians have clearly shown only they can understand it.
Yes hilarious for sure.


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## Spotlite (Oct 16, 2018)

bullethead said:


> It's like the kid you knew growing up that was always in trouble,  and 20 years later he is a police officer or judge. Or the guy that started on the production line and is now the boss of the plant. Knowing both sides gives an advantage.
> You are trying to talk your way out of a ticket or grumbling about What does the Boss know....when in all three of these instances you are dealing with a person who has been there and done that and knows at least as much as you do.


Oh my.......the elite imaginations are running wild lol.

Or maybe the kid that dropped out of school and now trying to explain to a college graduate.........

Been there and done that is more than putting the suit on and showing up.


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## Spotlite (Oct 16, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I know right!
> Because Christians have clearly shown only they can understand it.
> Yes hilarious for sure.


No, the non believers have clearly shown that they either don’t know how to use scripture, or they’re intentionally making it say what they want when they yank one or two out for their argument and fail to explain it while ignoring many others and can’t put them all into context. It’s not even complicated at all. I’m reminded of the “Christian regurgitating scripture” every time it happens.

I will give you a hint.......believe is the first thing.........it’s true, if you believe......then you shall or will. But what else is the non believer intentionally overlooking and ignoring? This was asked when the non believers started using scripture but so far there’s been zero attempts from any non believers to do that, all they’ve done is throw their opinions and thoughts out there.

It’s not a secret code, it just requires reading.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 16, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Oh my.......the elite imaginations are running wild lol.
> 
> Or maybe the kid that dropped out of school and now trying to explain to a college graduate.........
> 
> Been there and done that is more than putting the suit on and showing up.


Please point us to the facts that show people that used to believe but don't anymore just put on a suit and showed up.
Its amazing the crap you guys will throw out there without even a thought of backing it up.
Let me guess -
Your proof is we don't believe anymore so therefore we never believed.

That's just as cockamamie as the  first claim.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 16, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> No, the non believers have clearly shown that they either don’t know how to use scripture, or they’re intentionally making it say what they want when they yank one or two out for their argument and fail to explain it while ignoring many others and can’t put them all into context. It’s not even complicated at all. I’m reminded of the “Christian regurgitating scripture” every time it happens.
> 
> I will give you a hint.......believe is the first thing.........it’s true, if you believe......then you shall or will. But what else is the non believer intentionally overlooking and ignoring? This was asked when the non believers started using scripture but so far there’s been zero attempts from any non believers to do that, all they’ve done is throw their opinions and thoughts out there.
> 
> It’s not a secret code, it just requires reading.


When you typed this ^ how did you shove to the back of your head 40,000+ denominations and all the disagreement among Christians about this "not complicated at all" scripture stuff?
And you are asking us what WE are intentionally overlooking and ignoring?


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## bullethead (Oct 16, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Oh my.......the elite imaginations are running wild lol.
> 
> Or maybe the kid that dropped out of school and now trying to explain to a college graduate.........
> 
> Been there and done that is more than putting the suit on and showing up.


Not a wanna be spotlite.Done it.


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## ky55 (Oct 16, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> So we are taking scripture reading lessons from atheist now lol. Hilarious ?



Glad I could help.
It’s  all pretty simple really. Sometimes believers like to keep it shrouded in mystery and superstition in order to help make them feel even more special.
Gotta stroke that “humble” ego.

Bro Dave’s shining example of “humility” is probably the worst one I’ve ever seen in this forum.


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## Spotlite (Oct 16, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> When you typed this ^ how did you shove to the back of your head 40,000+ denominations and all the disagreement among Christians about this "not complicated at all" scripture stuff?
> And you are asking us what WE are intentionally overlooking and ignoring?




What I am asking is for the non believers that have been there done that and already figured it all out is to provide the rest of what is being overlooked and ignored to validate their point with an explanation.


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## Spotlite (Oct 16, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Glad I could help.
> It’s  all pretty simple really. Sometimes believers like to keep it shrouded in mystery and superstition in order to help make them feel even more special.
> Gotta stroke that “humble” ego.
> 
> Bro Dave’s shining example of “humility” is probably the worst one I’ve ever seen in this forum.


Lol ?


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## Spotlite (Oct 16, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Not a wanna be spotlite.Done it.


Then you should be able to explain in full detail the rest of it.


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## 660griz (Oct 16, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> He didn’t say it was wrong.
> 
> This is just a crutch the non believers use as an excuse.



Even many atheists would agree that believing that God cares about you or that your life is part of a cosmic plan can be a powerful source of hope (or, to put it pejoratively, a crutch).— Virginia Postrel


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## Spotlite (Oct 16, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Please point us to the facts that show people that used to believe but don't anymore just put on a suit and showed up.
> Its amazing the crap you guys will throw out there without even a thought of backing it up.
> Let me guess -
> Your proof is we don't believe anymore so therefore we never believed.
> ...


Because the non believers that used to believe will “regurgitate scripture “ (a couple) to argue with and they have zero explanation or thoughts to it and can’t provide the the entire concept. 

That’s self evident from their own doing. 

I don’t have or need proof of what you once were or not. That’s a ball I don’t ever bounce.


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## 660griz (Oct 16, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Because the non believers that used to believe will “regurgitate scripture “ (a couple) to argue with and they have zero explanation or thoughts to it and can’t provide the the entire concept.


It aint our fault God can't write a cohesive, coherent, comprehensive book.


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## ambush80 (Oct 16, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> No, the non believers have clearly shown that they either don’t know how to use scripture, or they’re intentionally making it say what they want when they yank one or two out for their argument and fail to explain it while ignoring many others and can’t put them all into context. It’s not even complicated at all. I’m reminded of the “Christian regurgitating scripture” every time it happens.
> 
> I will give you a hint.......believe is the first thing.........it’s true, if you believe......then you shall or will. But what else is the non believer intentionally overlooking and ignoring? This was asked when the non believers started using scripture but so far there’s been zero attempts from any non believers to do that, all they’ve done is throw their opinions and thoughts out there.
> 
> It’s not a secret code, it just requires reading.




Here's my attempt "If you believe it then you'll believe it."  Was that good?


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## 660griz (Oct 16, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Because the non believers that used to believe will “regurgitate scripture “ (a couple) to argue with and they have zero explanation or thoughts to it and can’t provide the the entire concept.



I/we, have asked for explanations and don't get any. The Bible does not denounce slavery. It just says to treat your slaves well. Why would a God not denounce this outright instead of playing to what is popular at the time?  Go.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 16, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> What I am asking is for the non believers that have been there done that and already figured it all out is to provide the rest of what is being overlooked and ignored to validate their point with an explanation.


Been there and done that does not = figuring it all out.
Don't believe anymore does not = never believed.


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## j_seph (Oct 16, 2018)

bullethead said:


> God, a god, gods, your god did NONE of it.


Sorry you feel this way. A mighty all knowing God we serve, and thanks to the sacrifice his ONLY BEGOTTEN son gave for us there are better times ahead. My prayer for you is that he opens that door for you one more time. I would pray he'd hit ya with a rock to get your attention but I am afraid it might just happen and you would get hurt.


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## bullethead (Oct 16, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Then you should be able to explain in full detail the rest of it.


Again?


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## bullethead (Oct 16, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Sorry you feel this way. A mighty all knowing God we serve, and thanks to the sacrifice his ONLY BEGOTTEN son gave for us there are better times ahead. My prayer for you is that he opens that door for you one more time. I would pray he'd hit ya with a rock to get your attention but I am afraid it might just happen and you would get hurt.


Yeah, what a sacrifice.  What a plan. And you worship that??

Pray that he contacts me in the way that only a god would know would be effective.
No sense damaging the rock if it hits me in the head.


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## Spotlite (Oct 16, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Here's my attempt "If you believe it then you'll believe it."  Was that good?


Well yea it’s a start.


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## Spotlite (Oct 16, 2018)

660griz said:


> I/we, have asked for explanations and don't get any. The Bible does not denounce slavery. It just says to treat your slaves well. Why would a God not denounce this outright instead of playing to what is popular at the time?  Go.



I think the go button is on the non believers this time. They yanked a couple of scriptures and made claims. Let’s here them explain what it means.

Edited to add: why ask for  explanations instead of reading? Do you go to a chapter in any other book and ask questions over a paragraph or do you read the entire book?

You don’t have to believe one single thing the Bible says, but if you’re honest with yourself and if you’d start at Genises 1 and not skip anything you’ll learn everything you have questions about.

All the curses, blessings, why’s and why nots to mankind........every verse and chapter will end up connecting. It’s not a complicated book.


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## Spotlite (Oct 16, 2018)

660griz said:


> It aint our fault God can't write a cohesive, coherent, comprehensive book.



I hear the struggle is real lol


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## Spotlite (Oct 16, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Again?



Yea, explain salvation with more than two or three or 5 scriptures.


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## Spotlite (Oct 16, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Been there and done that does not = figuring it all out.
> Don't believe anymore does not = never believed.


I agree with you Walt. I’m not saying anyone done it wrong. Only you know what you really believed. I can only say based on what I got from it, you didn’t find what I did. 

All I’m getting at is when folks say “I believed” they should be able to explain what that means and be able to use more than John 3:16.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 17, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I agree with you Walt. I’m not saying anyone done it wrong. Only you know what you really believed. I can only say based on what I got from it, you didn’t find what I did.
> 
> All I’m getting at is when folks say “I believed” they should be able to explain what that means and be able to use more than John 3:16.


1. It means I believed what the Bible and Christianity told me I should believe.
2. I did not use John 3:16 to convey what I believed, I used it as a rebuttal to j_sephs claim.
Both you and he explained you cant take it on its own, you have to use the whole Bible.
So I picked a random Christian website and heres what it said -


> There is no more powerful way to deliver this message than to let John 3:16 speak for itself.


"Let John 3:16 speak for itself"
"Cant take it on its own you have to use the whole Bible".
Exact opposites.
Christians and Christianity need to get their doo-doo together before they tell us nonbelievers a darn thing.


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## bullethead (Oct 17, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Yea, explain salvation with more than two or three or 5 scriptures.


KJV Dictionary Definition: salvationsalvation

SALVA'TION, n. L. salvo, to save.

1. The act of saving; preservation from destruction, danger or great calamity.

2. Appropriately in theology, the redemption of man from the bondage of sin and liability to eternal death, and the conferring on him everlasting happiness. This is the great salvation.

Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation. 2Cor. 7.

3. Deliverance from enemies; victory. Ex. 14.

4. Remission of sins, or saving graces. Luke 19.

5. The author of man's salvation. Ps. 27.

6. A term of praise or benediction. Rev. 19.


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## 660griz (Oct 17, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I think the go button is on the non believers this time. They yanked a couple of scriptures and made claims. Let’s here them explain what it means.
> 
> Edited to add: why ask for  explanations instead of reading? Do you go to a chapter in any other book and ask questions over a paragraph or do you read the entire book?
> 
> ...



I have read it end to end. It just creates questions. 
I didn't quote any particular book, chapter or verse. I asked why "THE BIBLE" in its entirety does not denounce slavery.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 17, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I hear the struggle is real lol


Another question. Why would a book, written by our creator, require translation into multiple languages? Couldn't a God write a book that was readable by whomever opened it, whenever they opened it? 
So, I could read it, hand it to a tribe in South America, and they could read it.
That would be some God like stuff.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 17, 2018)

660griz said:


> Another question. Why would a book, written by our creator, require translation into multiple languages? Couldn't a God write a book that was readable by whomever opened it, whenever they opened it?
> So, I could read it, hand it to a tribe in South America, and they could read it.
> That would be some God like stuff.


And make the meaning so clear that "gods children" are not killing each other over it and because of it...


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 17, 2018)

660griz said:


> Another question. Why would a book, written by our creator, require translation into multiple languages? Couldn't a God write a book that was readable by whomever opened it, whenever they opened it?
> So, I could read it, hand it to a tribe in South America, and they could read it.
> That would be some God like stuff.


You are missing the point. As of right now, treat it just like any other book - Gone with the Wind; read it as we would that book. It will answer all of your "what" questions.................don't worry about believing it for truth or not............just know what it says.


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## Spotlite (Oct 17, 2018)

660griz said:


> I have read it end to end. It just creates questions.
> I didn't quote any particular book, chapter or verse. I asked why "THE BIBLE" in its entirety does not denounce slavery.


Ok


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 17, 2018)

bullethead said:


> KJV Dictionary Definition: salvationsalvation
> 
> SALVA'TION, n. L. salvo, to save.
> 
> ...


You sure you got them all? Several are missing. But, don't just throw a scripture out there, explain it. That's what you ask for us to do.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 17, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> 1. It means I believed what the Bible and Christianity told me I should believe.
> 2. I did not use John 3:16 to convey what I believed, I used it as a rebuttal to j_sephs claim.
> Both you and he explained you cant take it on its own, you have to use the whole Bible.
> So I picked a random Christian website and heres what it said -
> ...



If you put them all together, John 3:16 will speak for itself, it explains a lot of the other that keeps getting overlooked. 

I have no trust in random Christian or non Christian sites.......that`s just wizzing in the wind and gets your britches legs wet. 

I don`t want to tell you or anyone else what to do. Just ask that if you tell me what isn't there, be able to explain it with something not found on a random site.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 17, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> You are missing the point. As of right now, treat it just like any other book - Gone with the Wind; read it as we would that book. It will answer all of your "what" questions.................don't worry about believing it for truth or not............just know what it says.


It comes nowhere close to answering  all of the WHAT questions.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 17, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> You sure you got them all? Several are missing. But, don't just throw a scripture out there, explain it. That's what you ask for us to do.


Scripture should not need interpretation or explanation, that is why we have so many questions and problems with it. It apparently does not mean exactly what it says.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 17, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> If you put them all together, John 3:16 will speak for itself, it explains a lot of the other that keeps getting overlooked.
> 
> I have no trust in random Christian or non Christian sites.......that`s just wizzing in the wind and gets your britches legs wet.
> 
> I don`t want to tell you or anyone else what to do. Just ask that if you tell me what isn't there, be able to explain it with something not found on a random site.


*speak for itˈself/themˈselves*
be  so  clear  or  obvious  that  no  explanation  or  comment  is  needed.

Referring to anything else is an explanation or comment.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 17, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Scripture should not need interpretation or explanation, that is why we have so many questions and problems with it. It apparently does not mean exactly what it says.


Depends on who you ask.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 17, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Scripture should not need interpretation or explanation, that is why we have so many questions and problems with it. It apparently does not mean exactly what it says.


If at some point this had to be explained to you as simple as it is then why would you expect that?


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 17, 2018)

j_seph said:


> If at some point this had to be explained to you as simple as it is then why would you expect that?


Should we expect all mathematicians to agree on what it says?


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 17, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> *speak for itˈself/themˈselves*
> be  so  clear  or  obvious  that  no  explanation  or  comment  is  needed.
> 
> Referring to anything else is an explanation or comment.


I will only say this....speaking for itself on anything is not a stand alone document. It may say something and be very clear but what it says sums up a lot of other stuff. Sure, John 3:16 is exactly true and correct and needs no interpretation.

Interpretation is not what I asked for, what I’m asking is to see what all that means. Anyone can say they believe. What happens after believing? What is the difference in salvation and saying you believe? Believing is only step 1.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 17, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Scripture should not need interpretation or explanation, that is why we have so many questions and problems with it. It apparently does not mean exactly what it says.


No one asked for interpretation.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 17, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Should we expect all mathematicians to agree on what it says?


That like being a Christian, they have to make their own decision. 
However this is pretty close 
1 Kings 7:23 
23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
_(π_ *5 cubits)*2=31.4159


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 17, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> No one asked for interpretation.


Interpretation is all there is.
That's why I can provide you Christian web sites that say the exact opposite of what you might say.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 17, 2018)

j_seph said:


> That like being a Christian, they have to make their own decision.
> However this is pretty close
> 1 Kings 7:23
> 23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
> _(π_ *5 cubits)*2=31.4159


My question was "should we expect all mathematicians to agree on what it says"?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 17, 2018)

j_seph said:


> If at some point this had to be explained to you as simple as it is then why would you expect that?


EVERYTHING that you use as an example or analogy is man made. I expect man made writings, directions, instructions, equations to be unclear,  confusing, contradictory, open to interpretation and unclear.  I do not expect to open a chinese language book and understand it without study.

Are you telling me that your God is no more capable of getting it's message across than mere mortals? It looks to me like you are absolutely comparing the work of your god to the work of man.
I would have to agree and take it one step further by saying that a god had nothing to do with the words that you call scripture. 

WHERE is the god-like work?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 17, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I will only say this....speaking for itself on anything is not a stand alone document. It may say something and be very clear but what it says sums up a lot of other stuff. Sure, John 3:16 is exactly true and correct and needs no interpretation.
> 
> Interpretation is not what I asked for, what I’m asking is to see what all that means. Anyone can say they believe. What happens after believing? What is the difference in salvation and saying you believe? Believing is only step 1.


We are relying on you people who claim to have interacted with a god to enlighten us in ways that are understandable.  You know, like an Apologist is supposed to be able to do. 
You are a believer asking us to explain scripture to you, from our own understanding.  And when we do you tell us it is wrong. You say we don't get it. You contradict yourself saying that it needs no explanation and then that it needs explanation.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 17, 2018)

bullethead said:


> EVERYTHING that you use as an example or analogy is man made. I expect man made writings, directions, instructions, equations to be unclear,  confusing, contradictory, open to interpretation and unclear.  I do not expect to open a chinese language book and understand it without study.
> 
> Are you telling me that your God is no more capable of getting it's message across than mere mortals? It looks to me like you are absolutely comparing the work of your god to the work of man.
> I would have to agree and take it one step further by saying that a god had nothing to do with the words that you call scripture.
> ...





> Are you telling me that your God is no more capable of getting it's message across than mere mortals?


That's exactly what they are saying. They just don't realize it.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 17, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> My question was "should we expect all mathematicians to agree on what it says"?


Again I will answer the 2nd time


> That like being a Christian, they have to make their own decision.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 17, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> No one asked for interpretation.


Spotlite,  you have 40,000  different groups that contain over 2 billion members who all cannot agree on what scripture means because it leaves everything open to interpretation .
That isn't my fault bud.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 17, 2018)

j_seph said:


> That like being a Christian, they have to make their own decision.
> However this is pretty close
> 1 Kings 7:23
> 23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
> _(π_ *5 cubits)*2=31.4159


So you are saying that ancient cultures had ways of figuring out distances. Shall I call a news conference?


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 17, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Again I will answer the 2nd time





> That like being a Christian, they have to make their own decision.


Interesting. Math and God are whatever you decide they are.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 18, 2018)

bullethead said:


> We are relying on you people who claim to have interacted with a god to enlighten us in ways that are understandable.  You know, like an Apologist is supposed to be able to do.
> You are a believer asking us to explain scripture to you, from our own understanding.  And when we do you tell us it is wrong. You say we don't get it. You contradict yourself saying that it needs no explanation and then that it needs explanation.


No I’m not asking to explain to me, I know what it says. 

 I’m asking you to explain the reason you claim it means more or less that what we try to tell you it does or when we say you’re leaving out things....


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 18, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Spotlite,  you have 40,000  different groups that contain over 2 billion members who all cannot agree on what scripture means because it leaves everything open to interpretation .
> That isn't my fault bud.


I can agree, and it’s not my fault either. 

There’s plenty that quote and so forth and haven’t even studied more than the few verses they quoted. 

I don’t ever listen to them unless they can explain how they all connect.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 18, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Interpretation is all there is.
> That's why I can provide you Christian web sites that say the exact opposite of what you might say.


Technically......yea the term “interpretation” applies but when used scripturally a lot of people use the term as a means to decode a scripture, like it’s a hidden message. I guess that’s my fault for taking that for granted. 

John 3:16 is stand alone..........but there’s alot of other Bible that John 3:16 covers. 

To know those parts and the whys of them, requires reading and studying more than a few verses or a quick search on a website. There’s no code to break but it requires an understanding of how the scripture came to be and what they mean in relation to other scriptures and events.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 18, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> No I’m not asking to explain to me, I know what it says.
> 
> I’m asking you to explain the reason you claim it means more or less that what we try to tell you it does or when we say you’re leaving out things....


Spotlite,you tell me what a verse means, another believer tells me what a verse means, and another and another and another and NONE of them agree!!


----------



## bullethead (Oct 18, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Technically......yea the term “interpretation” applies but when used scripturally a lot of people use the term as a means to decode a scripture, like it’s a hidden message. I guess that’s my fault for taking that for granted.
> 
> John 3:16 is stand alone..........but there’s alot of other Bible that John 3:16 covers.
> 
> To know those parts and the whys of them, requires reading and studying more than a few verses or a quick search on a website. There’s no code to break but it requires an understanding of how the scripture came to be and what they mean in relation to other scriptures and events.


"Requires an understanding of how the scripture came to be..."

Spotlite, if you knew that, you would be on our side.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 18, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Interpretation is all there is.
> That's why I can provide you Christian web sites that say the exact opposite of what you might say.


What makes it a Christian website, there used to be a website to the white house, even had whitehouse in its name but it was a far cry from the white house


----------



## bullethead (Oct 18, 2018)

j_seph said:


> What makes it a Christian website, there used to be a website to the white house, even had whitehouse in its name but it was a far cry from the white house


Can you provide us with your official list of what are and what are not Christian websites?


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 18, 2018)

j_seph said:


> What makes it a Christian website, there used to be a website to the white house, even had whitehouse in its name but it was a far cry from the white house


You got me. It was from a Pagan website that was extoling the virtues of John 3:16


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 18, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> No I’m not asking to explain to me, I know what it says.
> 
> I’m asking you to explain the reason you claim it means more or less that what we try to tell you it does or when we say you’re leaving out things....


We aren't telling you what it means.
We are telling you what other (not all) Christians says it means and what other (not all) Christians are being taught that it means.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 19, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Can you provide us with your official list of what are and what are not Christian websites?


It starts with
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 

and it ends with
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. 

I am sure you can find it with those 2 sentences


----------



## bullethead (Oct 19, 2018)

j_seph said:


> It starts with
> In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
> 
> and it ends with
> ...


I can't even find a j an underscore or a p in those two sentences.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 19, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Spotlite,you tell me what a verse means, another believer tells me what a verse means, and another and another and another and NONE of them agree!!


Yea about that.............obviously my kids didn`t both agree on what my group text meant that I sent on Monday morning that said "before Friday, need to get your rides in for service, etc. - note is on my desk with instructions" Both replied "OK"

One either failed to read the entire text, the note on my desk or both because he only got an oil change and wasn't at the right shop. I had swapped labor with someone for service, tire rotation, balance, brakes and alignment. The instructions told them exactly where to go, who to see and how to pay for the materials.  

So who / what was wrong and why?


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 19, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> We aren't telling you what it means.
> We are telling you what other (not all) Christians says it means and what other (not all) Christians are being taught that it means.


Gotcha..........Yea there`s tons of "I thinks" out there.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 19, 2018)

bullethead said:


> "Requires an understanding of how the scripture came to be..."
> 
> Spotlite, if you knew that, you would be on our side.


But the reason I am not on your side is I think you are wrong.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 19, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Gotcha..........Yea there`s tons of "I thinks" out there.


And therein lies the problem. To compound the problem nobody (Christians) can prove who is right or who is wrong.
A/As position is you guys get together and decide who's "I think" is the right one, THEN come tell us what it means and what it doesn't.
Seems fair to me.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 19, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> But the reason I am not on your side is I think you are wrong.


We know how scripture came to be. Its well documented. So Bullet is not wrong about that.
That only leaves whether its literally God's words.
Which cannot be proven right or wrong.
And when you consider Christians cant even proven God exists, proving those are his words would require well...…… a miracle.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 19, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> And therein lies the problem. To compound the problem nobody (Christians) can prove who is right or who is wrong.
> A/As position is you guys get together and decide who's "I think" is the right one, THEN come tell us what it means and what it doesn't.
> Seems fair to me.


We are not in it for what others think is right or wrong. We are are in it because it actually works for us.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 19, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Which cannot be proven right or wrong..


Finally some truth.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 19, 2018)

bullethead said:


> "Requires an understanding of how the scripture came to be..."
> 
> Spotlite, if you knew that, you would be on our side.


Let’s back up just a little and clarify, how scripture came to be.

The intent of my statement is how did John 3:16 come to be and what is it covering based solely on the Bible? No outside research of who wrote it and if it real is not. That’s why I said read it for the book, don’t worry about believing in it or not. “know” the story and leave yours and others feelings and thoughts out of it.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 19, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> We are not in it for what others think is right or wrong. We are are in it because it actually works for us.


And I honestly don't have a problem with that.
The problem is Christianity doesn't keep it to "us".


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 19, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> And I honestly don't have a problem with that.
> The problem is Christianity doesn't keep it to "us".


“Some” don't.

I’m one, and many that I associate and am familiar with share the same view; you can’t regulate or govern morals, ethics, values or principles. People have to choose, making it a crime means they’re not doing it for the correct reason.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 19, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> “Some” don't.
> 
> I’m one, and many that I associate and am familiar with share the same view; you can’t regulate or govern morals, ethics, values or principles. People have to choose, making it a crime means they’re not doing it for the correct reason.


Yes in this case I was using Christianity in the sense of Christianity the "organization".
I have Christian friends who share your view.
They don't buy beer on Sunday because the feel THEY shouldn't not that everybody shouldn't.
They send their kids to Christian schools because they don't think its right for one religion to be "pushed" in public schools etc.
Some of my Christian friends are hard core hunters. They freaked out when I told them where I grew up NOONE could hunt on Sundays


----------



## bullethead (Oct 19, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Yea about that.............obviously my kids didn`t both agree on what my group text meant that I sent on Monday morning that said "before Friday, need to get your rides in for service, etc. - note is on my desk with instructions" Both replied "OK"
> 
> One either failed to read the entire text, the note on my desk or both because he only got an oil change and wasn't at the right shop. I had swapped labor with someone for service, tire rotation, balance, brakes and alignment. The instructions told them exactly where to go, who to see and how to pay for the materials.
> 
> So who / what was wrong and why?


All of you. If you want something done to your satisfaction, the only way to make sure that happens is if you do it yourself. Did both your children read the directions fully? If so, It is possible that the message was not crystal clear where there was no room for interpretation. Does your son who either didn't understand your directions or didnt read them all or resd them fully and was sure you were talking about another place  now decide that he now likes the other garage and the other mechanic and will form a new denomination that will use the new mechanic because he is SURE that what you wrote was meant for him to go to that other place?

Then again, unless you are some sort of all knowing deity and could somehow see ahead and know how such things can misinterpreted  and that your son was gonna mess things up and you could have called him in the nick of time to prevent him from going to the wrong place...
See again, humans will screw things up. Some sort of "great designer" either planned for that or didn't design things correctly. So the blame goes on the designer...if that is sort of things you believe  in..


----------



## bullethead (Oct 19, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> But the reason I am not on your side is I think you are wrong.


See post #221


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 19, 2018)

bullethead said:


> All of you. If you want something done to your satisfaction, the only way to make sure that happens is if you do it yourself. Did both your children read the directions fully? If so, It is possible that the message was not crystal clear where there was no room for interpretation. Does your son who either didn't understand your directions or didnt read them all or resd them fully and was sure you were talking about another place  now decide that he now likes the other garage and the other mechanic and will form a new denomination that will use the new mechanic because he is SURE that what you wrote was meant for him to go to that other place?
> 
> Then again, unless you are some sort of all knowing deity and could somehow see ahead and know how such things can misinterpreted  and that your son was gonna mess things up and you could have called him in the nick of time to prevent him from going to the wrong place...
> See again, humans will screw things up. Some sort of "great designer" either planned for that or didn't design things correctly. So the blame goes on the designer...if that is sort of things you believe  in..


I think OCD may be an issue.........but other than that, yes it is humans fault, not the designer. Thanks for acknowledging that.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 19, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes in this case I was using Christianity in the sense of Christianity the "organization".
> I have Christian friends who share your view.
> They don't buy beer on Sunday because the feel THEY shouldn't not that everybody shouldn't.
> They send their kids to Christian schools because they don't think its right for one religion to be "pushed" in public schools etc.
> Some of my Christian friends are hard core hunters. They freaked out when I told them where I grew up NOONE could hunt on Sundays


Yea I know some hard core that think it’s a sin to wash or cut grass on Sunday’s. I tell them my oxe is in the ditch. I also know some that don’t think you should buy beer on Sunday’s, so they get it Saturday and drink it Sunday lol.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 19, 2018)

bullethead said:


> See post #221


Mutual


----------



## bullethead (Oct 19, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I think OCD may be an issue.........but other than that, yes it is humans fault, not the designer. Thanks for acknowledging that.


If the brakes fail on the car and it is found that it happened because of a defect. Who is responsible,  the brakes or the designer/manufacturer?


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 19, 2018)

bullethead said:


> If the brakes fail on the car and it is found that it happened because of a defect. Who is responsible,  the brakes or the designer/manufacturer?


As a business man if I gave you specific instructions to do something and you didn’t follow, you’re fired.

This isn’t about warranties, it’s about reading instructions and following them, failure to do so is incompetent.

The constant wanting to blame someone for something is OCD.


----------



## Israel (Oct 19, 2018)

I don't believe this is the long view.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 19, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> As a business man if I gave you specific instructions to do something and you didn’t follow, you’re fired.
> 
> This isn’t about warranties, it’s about reading instructions and following them, failure to do so is incompetent.
> 
> The constant wanting to blame someone for something is OCD.


Spotlite, I in no way even think that the god you worship even exists in any way that the bible or scripture portrays, let alone that some god had a hand in writing ANY of it.
With that being said, in order to even converse with NONapologists, we have to allow you some liberty and we have to allow ourselves to tap into your world and use what we read in scripture and what believers tell us JUST so we can hold a conversation and use terms and examples of your OWN scripture and claims against you.
To me, it is no different than arguing about The Walking Dead lines,  Looney Tunes Cartoon episodes, Mighty Mouse vs Superman Man debates or EVERYTHING included in people who live as though they are a Klingon from Stsr Trek or travel the country from Comic Con event to another as if they were their favorite characters.

The facts according to your scripture is that God is the designer and is All Knowing and All Powerful. If he had men write "his" book and he designed humans to be unable to PRECISELY understand "his"book, then it is "his" fault. 
Period

I am not OCD. I am using the facts placed forth in the book and words you use as a religous guide to understand your god. It isn't my fault that you and I can read the same things and get completely different outcomes if in fact, we were designed by the same thing that wants us to use that book to understand him and it.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 19, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> As a business man if I gave you specific instructions to do something and you didn’t follow, you’re fired.
> 
> This isn’t about warranties, it’s about reading instructions and following them, failure to do so is incompetent.
> 
> The constant wanting to blame someone for something is OCD.


As a manufacturer, if you printed out instructions that were unclear, non specific, and found to contain errors and outlandish claims if your product and somebody got hurt installing thr product or the product fails ....you gonna do some time.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 19, 2018)

bullethead said:


> As a manufacturer, if you printed out instructions that were unclear, non specific, and found to contain errors and outlandish claims if your product and somebody got hurt installing thr product or the product fails ....you gonna do some time.


But that hasn’t happened


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 19, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Spotlite, I in no way even think that the god you worship even exists in any way that the bible or scripture portrays, let alone that some god had a hand in writing ANY of it.
> With that being said, in order to even converse with NONapologists, we have to allow you some liberty and we have to allow ourselves to tap into your world and use what we read in scripture and what believers tell us JUST so we can hold a conversation and use terms and examples of your OWN scripture and claims against you.
> To me, it is no different than arguing about The Walking Dead lines,  Looney Tunes Cartoon episodes, Mighty Mouse vs Superman Man debates or EVERYTHING included in people who live as though they are a Klingon from Stsr Trek or travel the country from Comic Con event to another as if they were their favorite characters.
> 
> ...


You’re entitled to your thoughts. But so far, they’re not factual. 

This whole conversation really had nothing to do with what you believe or don’t believe, it was designed for you to know the book, regardless of your opinion of it.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 19, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> But that hasn’t happened


Millions upon millions of deaths due to that Bible spotlite. You cannot be serious.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 19, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> You’re entitled to your thoughts. But so far, they’re not factual.
> 
> This whole conversation really had nothing to do with what you believe or don’t believe, it was designed for you to know the book, regardless of your opinion of it.


I know the book as well as I can understand it.
I've read it numerous times, referenced it tens of thousands.
If You and the other 2 billion Christians all agreed upon everything it said and I just didn't get it, yeah you are onto something. But that is nowhere even close. 5 or 6 Christians in here are not universally in agreement on it, dozens upon dozens above cannot agree upon it and world wide 40,000 denominations and 2 billion individuals disagree.
I had to read it the 2nd time to see if it backed up what I read the first time was the same. The 3rd time confirmed it. I liked the bible much more before I read it all. It is better in bits.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 19, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I know the book as well as I can understand it.
> I've read it numerous times, referenced it tens of thousands.
> If You and the other 2 billion Christians all agreed upon everything it said and I just didn't get it, yeah you are onto something. But that is nowhere even close. 5 or 6 Christians in here are not universally in agreement on it, dozens upon dozens above cannot agree upon it and world wide 40,000 denominations and 2 billion individuals disagree.
> I had to read it the 2nd time to see if it backed up what I read the first time was the same. The 3rd time confirmed it. I liked the bible much more before I read it all. It is better in bits.


Ok I can’t say you didn’t read it, only you would know that answer. I can only question some of your use of it that leaves you still asking some questions.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 19, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Ok I can’t say you didn’t read it, only you would know that answer. I can only question some of your use of it that leaves you still asking some questions.


Believe me when i tell you that before 29 years ago, I sounded and made rhe same points you did.


----------



## Israel (Oct 20, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Believe me when i tell you that before 29 years ago, I sounded and made rhe same points you did.


 
So, basically, you left what you consider "the faith" at the age of 20?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 20, 2018)

Israel said:


> So, basically, you left what you consider "the faith" at the age of 20?


That was when I stopped bragging about it and was done with Organized Religion. That was the age when I first read the bible in full. Read it 2 more times by age 25. In those 5 years was when I set out to back up everything I believed and was told/taught so I could have undeniable proof to back up my beliefs. How hard could the Ultimate Truth be to prove right?


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 20, 2018)

Israel said:


> So, basically, you left what you consider "the faith" at the age of 20?


Question for you Israel -
If I read between the lines of your question, which I may be totally wrong in doing,
do you feel Bullet would have had a better chance of "sticking with it" if he had started at 20 as opposed to ending at 20?


----------



## Israel (Oct 20, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Question for you Israel -
> If I read between the lines of your question, which I may be totally wrong in doing,
> do you feel Bullet would have had a better chance of "sticking with it" if he had started at 20 as opposed to ending at 20?



That wasn't in my mind at all, was just practicing my math and seeing whether I have been following conversations. I'm just not always sure I know what I think I know.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 20, 2018)

Israel said:


> That wasn't in my mind at all, was just practicing my math and seeing whether I have been following conversations. I'm just not always sure I know what I think I know.


See told ya I may be totally wrong in reading between the lines


----------



## j_seph (Oct 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> The facts according to your scripture is that God is the designer and is All Knowing and All Powerful. If he had men write "his" book and he designed humans to be unable to PRECISELY understand "his"book, then it is "his" fault.
> Period


Had God placed a thousand or ten thousand bibles in an area for someone to find, then folks would still be saying that someone(s) did that and they were trying to push Christianity and the Bible on them. 

Here is one y'all can go investigate personally. Do not know if it is still doing this or not.
http://www.daily-tribune.com/stories/hundreds-turn-out-to-behold-miraculous-bible,19346

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="



" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## bullethead (Oct 22, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Had God placed a thousand or ten thousand bibles in an area for someone to find, then folks would still be saying that someone(s) did that and they were trying to push Christianity and the Bible on them.
> 
> Here is one y'all can go investigate personally. Do not know if it is still doing this or not.
> http://www.daily-tribune.com/stories/hundreds-turn-out-to-behold-miraculous-bible,19346
> ...


Had god....but he didn't. 
A god didn't do anything. He didn't write it,  he didn't print it, he didn't publish it, he didn't distribute it, he didn't translate it, he didn't fact check it, he didn't proofread it, he didnt make it precise,  to the point, or unable to be interpreted incorrectly. He certainly did not make one master copy that is indestructible and understandable in all languages no matter who reads it.

What in your opinion would be the purpose of an oil leaking bible?
Of all that you say your God is capable of, do you think for a second that such a being with superior intellect would wake up with the idea that he could gain believers by having oil leak out of a book? I mean c'mon.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Had god....but he didn't.
> A god didn't do anything.


Based off of the other thread, are you saying this as a fact or is this the best known available to you?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Based off of the other thread, are you saying this as a fact or is this the best known available to you?


Based off of the 1500years it took to gather work from mostly anonymous writers and select what makes the cut and what doesn't. 
Claims say a god made the universe in 6 days, but nobody is bragging about his writers block for 1500 years.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Based off of the 1500years it took to gather work from mostly anonymous writers and select what makes the cut and what doesn't.
> Claims say a god made the universe in 6 days, but nobody is bragging about his writers block for 1500 years.





Spotlite said:


> Based off of the other thread, are you saying this as a fact or is this the best known available to you?


 So is it fact or best known to you?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> So is it fact or best known to you?


Based off of the best known available evidence.


----------



## ky55 (Oct 22, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Had God placed a thousand or ten thousand bibles in an area for someone to find, then folks would still be saying that someone(s) did that and they were trying to push Christianity and the Bible on them.
> 
> Here is one y'all can go investigate personally. Do not know if it is still doing this or not.
> http://www.daily-tribune.com/stories/hundreds-turn-out-to-behold-miraculous-bible,19346
> ...



Dang shame it ain’t peanut oil so it would be worth something.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 22, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Had God placed a thousand or ten thousand bibles in an area for someone to find, then folks would still be saying that someone(s) did that and they were trying to push Christianity and the Bible on them.
> 
> Here is one y'all can go investigate personally. Do not know if it is still doing this or not.
> http://www.daily-tribune.com/stories/hundreds-turn-out-to-behold-miraculous-bible,19346
> ...




Now that's persuasive. A full blown miracle.  I read an article that said a chemist in Dalton said it was mineral oil from an unknown source:
_
While they were faithful, they also had more concrete concerns about the oil. They enlisted the help of a Dalton chemist who tested the liquid. The results it yielded only strengthened their resolve.
“During this whole thing, we have told everyone, ‘we want to keep it all in the light. What we know, you know.’ We just want to be good stewards of this and do what God wants us to do,” he said.
“(The chemist) said that it had the characteristics of mineral oil but was not manufactured. They best they could tell us ... they don’t know where it came from.”_

_https://thebrunswicknews.com/life/b...cle_6e27ed92-ac64-51e7-ac48-df500ebf3236.html_

I think it would be awesome if the Bible and the tub were taken to a lab so they could be watched and examined thoroughly, so that the miracle could be documented.  Wouldn't that be wonderful?  How many would it bring to Christ? At least some, don't you imagine?  If the scientists said "We don't know what it is or where it comes from"; if no scientist could come up with a natural explanation, I would be moved.  I would be closer to belief.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 22, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Now that's persuasive. A full blown miracle.  I read an article that said a chemist in Dalton said it was mineral oil from an unknown source:
> 
> _While they were faithful, they also had more concrete concerns about the oil. They enlisted the help of a Dalton chemist who tested the liquid. The results it yielded only strengthened their resolve.
> “During this whole thing, we have told everyone, ‘we want to keep it all in the light. What we know, you know.’ We just want to be good stewards of this and do what God wants us to do,” he said.
> ...


Why are they not sending vials of it to Children's Hospitals all over the world?
Or at least retirement homes for old Hinges?...


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Wouldn't that be wonderful?  How many would it bring to Christ?.


We are often asked if it wasn’t for the promise of heaven, or the “wows” or the “gifts”, etc, would we still be in Christianity.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Based off of the best known available evidence.


Evidence is a body of facts?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Evidence is a body of facts?


Get to your point man...
This is excruciating.

The facts are man took 1500 years to get the completed bible as we know it.
If you can refute that with evidence that says otherwise, lets hear it.
If you can't....

If you have some Ah Hah gotcha bombshell that you want to drop go for it.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> We are often asked if it wasn’t for the promise of heaven, or the “wows” or the “gifts”, etc, would we still be in Christianity.



There's a word that eludes me that seems like what you're doing right now.  It has something to do with you wanting to agree with me but at the same time not wanting to agree with me. 

My question was simple.  If this thing was proven to be a miracle, would it bring some people to Christ.  The second part of the question is whether or not that would be a good thing.

I believe a true, honest to goodness inexplicable miracle linked to the Bible would bring people to Christendom.  I would be a Christian if the utility of being one made sense.  I've so far been able to find ways to experience the benefits of religion without the negatives, but if something like this oily Bible turns out to be a true miracle, then it would cause me to re-examine all the other miracle claims not only of the Bible but of all the other religious traditions.


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## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> There's a word that eludes me that seems like what you're doing right now.  It has something to do with you wanting to agree with me but at the same time not wanting to agree with me.
> 
> My question was simple.  If this thing was proven to be a miracle, would it bring some people to Christ.  The second part of the question is whether or not that would be a good thing.
> 
> I believe a true, honest to goodness inexplicable miracle linked to the Bible would bring people to Christendom.  I would be a Christian if the utility of being one made sense.  I've so far been able to find ways to experience the benefits of religion without the negatives, but if something like this oily Bible turns out to be a true miracle, then it would cause me to re-examine all the other miracle claims not only of the Bible but of all the other religious traditions.


For the wrong reasons, yes it could, and would. So yes, I would agree with you, but then you end up building on very shallow foundations. It’s almost like saying you love your wife because she bought you a new truck.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Get to your point man...
> This is excruciating.
> 
> The facts are man took 1500 years to get the completed bible as we know it.
> ...


No Ah Hah gotcha bombshell from me.

I’m just assuming here, but it appears that we are all relying on what we consider to be best known to us and none of us really have what could be considered facts for or against by one another.

As for books “written by men”, well, all books are written by men.

They only differ in their inspiration.


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## ambush80 (Oct 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> For the wrong reasons, yes it could, and would. So yes, I would agree with you, but then you end up building on very shallow foundations. It’s almost like saying you love your wife because she bought you a new truck.



Allot of people offer their testimonies about "miracles".  Some of them are the kind confound science (I should have died but I didn't) and the other kind are the ones that are subjective and personal (He changed me on the inside).  I find both kind compelling and enjoy when people share them.  Of the naturalistic claims, I would love to be able to investigate them thoroughly.


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## bullethead (Oct 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> No Ah Hah gotcha bombshell from me.
> 
> I’m just assuming here, but it appears that we are all relying on what we consider to be best known to us and none of us really have what could be considered facts for or against by one another.
> 
> ...


If you are under the impression that science is equally as unfactual as religion then you are painting it with the broadest brush possible.
Science is ALWAYS open to review new information and change if necessary, but things that are considered as fact are that way because they have held up to ALL scrutiny.
Religion, not so much.

Yes, all books are written by men and inspired by a variety of things.

Are you telling me that you put the contents of the Bible in the same group as everything else?
If not, why not?
And that is why we both hold it to different standards.


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## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> If you are under the impression that science is equally as unfactual as religion then you are painting it with the broadest brush possible.
> Science is ALWAYS open to review new information and change if necessary, but things that are considered as fact are that way because they have held up to ALL scrutiny.
> Religion, not so much.
> 
> ...


I’m telling you that I live and experience what I have faith in and outside of that there is absolutely nothing that even comes close to trying to explain that, although they try. Science is just trying to figure out Gods creation. I have no issues with that exploration. We don’t completely ignore them as some non believers would think, we just don’t hold them at the top of the ladder.

If they’re bold enough to tell me what didn’t happen, they better be smart enough to tell me what did, with certainty, not most likely.


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## bullethead (Oct 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I’m telling you that I live and experience what I have faith in and outside of that there is absolutely nothing that even comes close to trying to explain that, although they try. Science is just trying to figure out Gods creation. I have no issues with that exploration. We don’t completely ignore them as some non believers would think, we just don’t hold them at the top of the ladder.
> 
> If they’re bold enough to tell me what didn’t happen, they better be smart enough to tell me what did, with certainty, not most likely.


So tell me how you know any experience you had was because of God or Jesus. Did either one personally visit you? Speak to you ?

Can you show me where scientists agree that they not only acknowledge a specific god and their goal is to figure out that gods creation?

Or will you just admit that you make ridiculous claims based off of how you think something is without anything to back it up?


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## WaltL1 (Oct 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I’m telling you that I live and experience what I have faith in and outside of that there is absolutely nothing that even comes close to trying to explain that, although they try. Science is just trying to figure out Gods creation. I have no issues with that exploration. We don’t completely ignore them as some non believers would think, we just don’t hold them at the top of the ladder.
> 
> If they’re bold enough to tell me what didn’t happen, they better be smart enough to tell me what did, with certainty, not most likely.


You want a complete answer and you want it NOW.
God created the earth provides you that answer and provides it NOW.
Science telling you "we are working on it, heres what we have found so far and here is where what we have found is leading to" is not complete and its not NOW.
And therefore unacceptable.

Question -
Do you believe God is responsible for the ongoing changes to our planet?


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## bullethead (Oct 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I’m telling you that I live and experience what I have faith in and outside of that there is absolutely nothing that even comes close to trying to explain that, although they try. Science is just trying to figure out Gods creation. I have no issues with that exploration. We don’t completely ignore them as some non believers would think, we just don’t hold them at the top of the ladder.
> 
> If they’re bold enough to tell me what didn’t happen, they better be smart enough to tell me what did, with certainty, not most likely.


And you totally ignored answering my contents of the bible.

Your life, just about every single second of every single day, revolves around science because what it made happen and it can certainly explain how. You seem to overlook all of things you rely on and take for granted. They can tell you what didn't happen because there is no evidence to back it up.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> And you totally ignored answering my contents of the bible.
> 
> Your life, just about every single second of every single day, revolves around science because what it made happen and it can certainly explain how. You seem to overlook all of things you rely on and take for granted. They can tell you what didn't happen because there is no evidence to back it up.


It boils down to -
"I blame science that the evidence they are finding does not lead to the Christian God.
All the evidence is there they are just ignoring it because they don't want God to be the answer".


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## bullethead (Oct 22, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> It boils down to -
> "I blame science that the evidence they are finding does not lead to the Christian God.
> All the evidence is there they are just ignoring it because they don't want God to be the answer".


That seems to be exactly it Walt.

"Everybody everywhere knows that there is only one god but they refuse to acknowledge it and all the evidence for it."
And there isn't a one of them that would tolerate that nonsense from anyone else, about anything else.


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## ambush80 (Oct 22, 2018)

I was just listening to Sam Harris and Brian Greene in conversation and Brian Green just said that we have explored "One and a half light _seconds_ from our planet".  We don't know nuthin bout nuthin. I can't say wheter or not the creator of the universe told us what he's like through the bizarre stories of ancient Middle Easterners, but I can say that if that's what he told them then it _seems_ ridiculous.  That seems like the right word to use.


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## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> You want a complete answer and you want it NOW.
> God created the earth provides you that answer and provides it NOW.
> Science telling you "we are working on it, heres what we have found so far and here is where what we have found is leading to" is not complete and its not NOW.
> And therefore unacceptable.
> ...


No, Walt, not saying that all. Just saying that science and some non believers will boldly tell you “no God” when in fact if what you’re saying is true, and I would agree, they’re working on it, how could they possibly be so firm that “it’s no God” until they know?


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## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> It boils down to -
> "I blame science that the evidence they are finding does not lead to the Christian God.
> All the evidence is there they are just ignoring it because they don't want God to be the answer".


Dear Lord 

No one blames science for anything. No one expects or is even looking for science to find God.


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## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> And you totally ignored answering my contents of the bible.
> 
> Your life, just about every single second of every single day, revolves around science because what it made happen and it can certainly explain how. You seem to overlook all of things you rely on and take for granted. They can tell you what didn't happen because there is no evidence to back it up.


I think that one went slap over your head. We know what how why science is for and we use it  

But this is a moving target for you of “facts” “evidence”  “proof”


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## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> So tell me how you know any experience you had was because of God or Jesus. Did either one personally visit you? Speak to you ?
> 
> Can you show me where scientists agree that they not only acknowledge a specific god and their goal is to figure out that gods creation?
> 
> Or will you just admit that you make ridiculous claims based off of how you think something is without anything to back it up?


It’s not so much science as it is non believers. Non believers are usually the ones, we’ll you, that will boldly state “no God did it” and point to science as your evidence. Truth is science is just innocently searching and discovering. 

Based on your own evidence, you dont really know that no God did it, do you?


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## ambush80 (Oct 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> It’s not so much science as it is non believers. Non believers are usually the ones, we’ll you, that will boldly state “no God did it” and point to science as your evidence. Truth is science is just innocently searching and discovering.
> 
> Based on your own evidence, you dont really know that no God did it, do you?




A scientist would never say that a resurrection is impossible.  They would never say that.  They would say "It's highly unlikely".  They may even say that it's more unlikely than a rock falling up.  I'm sure they could make some hypothesis about how a rock could fall up.  Not so much a resurrection.  If it could be explained it wouldn't be much of a miracle.  Then your God wouldn't be any better than "their" God.   Though we know that many Gods resurrected before Jesus did, don't we?

https://listverse.com/2013/03/30/10-resurrected-religious-figures/

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="



" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## WaltL1 (Oct 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> It’s not so much science as it is non believers. Non believers are usually the ones, we’ll you, that will boldly state “no God did it” and point to science as your evidence. Truth is science is just innocently searching and discovering.
> 
> Based on your own evidence, you dont really know that no God did it, do you?


Science isn't just innocently searching and discovering. Science is following the evidence.


> Non believers are usually the ones, we’ll you, that will boldly state “no God did it” and point to science as your evidence.


Christians are usually the ones, well you, that will boldly state "no other god did it" and point to the Bible as your evidence".
See how that works?


> Based on your own evidence, you dont really know that no God did it, do you?


Based on my own evidence, I don't really know that a squirrel didn't create the earth, or that my next door neighbor didn't create the earth or that one of the other gods didn't create the earth or...………


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## bullethead (Oct 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> It’s not so much science as it is non believers. Non believers are usually the ones, we’ll you, that will boldly state “no God did it” and point to science as your evidence. Truth is science is just innocently searching and discovering.
> 
> Based on your own evidence, you dont really know that no God did it, do you?


In your world of endless possibilities the doors are open to literally every and any guess. Your god is one of a trillion possibilities. You are unable to narrow it down to a select 10,000.
In science, the possibilities are whatever they can find evidence for and it expands from there. So far,  NADA.

Based on my own evidence, yes I can say no god did it. I have never seen, heard, touched, smelled, been visited by, have not found a god, nor have I interpreted strange happenstance as being the result of some spiritual being.


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## j_seph (Oct 23, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> There's a word that eludes me that seems like what you're doing right now.  It has something to do with you wanting to agree with me but at the same time not wanting to agree with me.
> 
> My question was simple.  If this thing was proven to be a miracle, would it bring some people to Christ.  The second part of the question is whether or not that would be a good thing.
> 
> I believe a true, honest to goodness inexplicable miracle linked to the Bible would bring people to Christendom.  I would be a Christian if the utility of being one made sense.  I've so far been able to find ways to experience the benefits of religion without the negatives, but if something like this oily Bible turns out to be a true miracle, then it would cause me to re-examine all the other miracle claims not only of the Bible but of all the other religious traditions.


Sort of like John 20:29
Your like King Agrippa


----------



## j_seph (Oct 23, 2018)

Speaking of King Agrippa, do y'all agree that he was a real person?
What about King Herod?


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## ky55 (Oct 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Why are they not sending vials of it to Children's Hospitals all over the world?
> Or at least retirement homes for old Hinges?...



Yeah that guy is one of the very worst kind of snake oil salesmen. 
He comes up with a miraculous healing oil from a god, from HIS bible, and he hauls it around to other churches in a plastic tote from WalMart. 
You would think he’d share just a gallon or two with Mayo Clinic or St. Jude’s Children’s Hospital. 

Makes me think of the scene from Josey Wales...
“How is it on stains?”


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## bullethead (Oct 23, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Speaking of King Agrippa, do y'all agree that he was a real person?
> What about King Herod?


Which Herod, the one that the Bible said ordered the killing of all male babies(which there is no record of) or the Herod that was already dead who the bible says ordered the killing of male babies(which there is no record of)?


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## j_seph (Oct 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Which Herod, the one that the Bible said ordered the killing of all male babies(which there is no record of) or the Herod that was already dead who the bible says ordered the killing of male babies(which there is no record of)?


There was more than 1 King Herod
*Herod the Great (37 B.C. – 4 B.C.)*
*Herod Antipas (Before 20 B.C. – 39 A.D.)*
*Herod Agrippa I (12 B.C. – 44 A.D.)*
*Herod-Agrippa-II (27 A.D. – 100 A.D.)*


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## bullethead (Oct 23, 2018)

j_seph said:


> There was more than 1 King Herod
> *Herod the Great (37 B.C. – 4 B.C.)*
> *Herod Antipas (Before 20 B.C. – 39 A.D.)*
> *Herod Agrippa I (12 B.C. – 44 A.D.)*
> *Herod-Agrippa-II (27 A.D. – 100 A.D.)*


Which one ordered the killing of the male babies in Jerusalem which is recorded in only one gospel and no where else in Jewish or Roman history?


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## WaltL1 (Oct 23, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Speaking of King Agrippa, do y'all agree that he was a real person?
> What about King Herod?


Trick question?
Herod Agrippa, also known as Herod or Agrippa I (Hebrew : אגריפס ‬; 11 BC – 44 AD), was a King of Judea from 41 to 44 AD. He was the last ruler with the royal title reigning over Judea and the father of Herod Agrippa II, the last King from the Herodian dynasty.


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## Spotlite (Oct 23, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Christians are usually the ones, well you, that will boldly state "no other god did it" and point to the Bible as your evidence".
> See how that works?
> 
> ………


I will call you out on that one. I’ve always pointed to the part of the Bible that tells me to not put another god before mine.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> In your world of endless possibilities the doors are open to literally every and any guess. Your god is one of a trillion possibilities. You are unable to narrow it down to a select 10,000.
> In science, the possibilities are whatever they can find evidence for and it expands from there. So far,  NADA.
> 
> Based on my own evidence, yes I can say no god did it. I have never seen, heard, touched, smelled, been visited by, have not found a god, nor have I interpreted strange happenstance as being the result of some spiritual being.


Endless possibilities?? Lol you’re  imagination is running wild. Based on your “experience”, and as we’ve been told many times, an experience doesn’t qualify as evidence.


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## Spotlite (Oct 23, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> If it could be explained it wouldn't be much of a miracle.  Then your God wouldn't be any better than "their" God.   Though we know that many Gods resurrected before Jesus did, don't we?


Couple of things, though....

1 - we realize that miracles are unexplainable 

2 - We aren’t interested in other gods, just ours. The world is full of good looking women, Im just interested in my one.


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## bullethead (Oct 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Endless possibilities?? Lol you’re  imagination is running wild. Based on your “experience”, and as we’ve been told many times, an experience doesn’t qualify as evidence.


Spotlite, you base your whole arguments around things that are unknown. You say nothing can be ruled out because we cannot be 100%sure. Yes, the possibilities are endless using YOUR rules.

Did I mention "experience" anywhere? Is NOT having any of those things happen an "experience"? No spotlite, I have NOT had or used any "experiences". Your point is moot.

You, on the other hand have finally gotten to understand the rules.
Take your own advice.


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## bullethead (Oct 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I will call you out on that one. I’ve always pointed to the part of the Bible that tells me to not put another god before mine.


You reinforced his point


----------



## bullethead (Oct 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Couple of things, though....
> 
> 1 - we realize that miracles are unexplainable
> 
> 2 - We aren’t interested in other gods, just ours. The world is full of good looking women, Im just interested in my one.


Using the analogy that you made,
Do you deny the existence of other women? Do you not interact in any way with other women? Do you ignore every other woman but your own? Do you not know even one other woman?

If your answers are yes, you are full of it.
If your answers are no, then tell us who are some other gods that exist that you do not put before your god.


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## 660griz (Oct 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I will call you out on that one. I’ve always pointed to the part of the Bible that tells me to not put another god before mine.


So, you believe there are other Gods?


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 24, 2018)

660griz said:


> So, you believe there are other Gods?


What does the Bible say?


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## Spotlite (Oct 24, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Using the analogy that you made,
> Do you deny the existence of other women? Do you not interact in any way with other women? Do you ignore every other woman but your own? Do you not know even one other woman?
> 
> If your answers are yes, you are full of it.
> If your answers are no, then tell us who are some other gods that exist that you do not put before your god.


I only have a relationship with the one......


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## WaltL1 (Oct 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I will call you out on that one. I’ve always pointed to the part of the Bible that tells me to not put another god before mine.


Yeah that's what I said


----------



## 660griz (Oct 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> What does the Bible say?


I didn't ask the Bible.


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## Spotlite (Oct 24, 2018)

660griz said:


> I didn't ask the Bible.


Where do think I will base my belief and answer, that I’ve nit already stated multiple times?


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 24, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Yeah that's what I said


Not exactly, Walt. Unless it’s a play on words, or I misread. I don’t ever boldly state “no other god did it”

I don’t put any other before mine. I’ve acknowledged many times that we fight a spiritual battle. How’s that possible with only one spirit?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> What does the Bible say?


When the bible says something specific that turns out to not be true you say that you take the bible as a whole and not in small parts, but when the small parts fit you cherry pick.

Plus your "One" god is at least Three separated and bunched together as needed. See OT and NT


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## bullethead (Oct 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Not exactly, Walt. Unless it’s a play on words, or I misread. I don’t ever boldly state “no other god did it”
> 
> I don’t put any other before mine. I’ve acknowledged many times that we fight a spiritual battle. How’s that possible with only one spirit?


Are spirits gods?

The bible says Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me.
If you are a stickler for clinging to scripture, where does it mention spirits as gods?


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## 660griz (Oct 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Where do think I will base my belief and answer, that I’ve nit already stated multiple times?


Wouldn't it have been a lot less typing to just answer the question yes or no?


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 24, 2018)

660griz said:


> Wouldn't it have been a lot less typing to just answer the question yes or no?


Yes. But it would have robbed of you of looking


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 24, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Are spirits gods?
> 
> The bible says Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me.
> If you are a stickler for clinging to scripture, where does it mention spirits as gods?


Evil spirits in the Bible? In whom god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not?


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 24, 2018)

bullethead said:


> When the bible says something specific that turns out to not be true you say that you take the bible as a whole and not in small parts, but when the small parts fit you cherry pick.
> 
> Plus your "One" god is at least Three separated and bunched together as needed. See OT and NT


I haven't found any untrue parts of the Bible. Cherry picking is using one to justify your argument. There are many scriptures that back up other scriptures, just as a few examples I gave you about spirits / gods.

And no, you don't understand the Godhead. It is still................one God. You are a husband and a son but you are still one person. That's about as plain as I can make that one for you.  You not understanding this does not make the Bible wrong, if you did understand it, you could still be a non believer, but your questions and your arguments would be substantially different.

And bullet, if you go back and look, I’m not even using bible until I’m accused of what I say by a non believer lol.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I haven't found any untrue parts of the Bible. Cherry picking is using one to justify your argument. There are many scriptures that back up other scriptures, just as a few examples I gave you about spirits / gods.
> 
> And no, you don't understand the Godhead. It is still................one God. You are a husband and a son but you are still one person. That's about as plain as I can make that one for you.  You not understanding this does not make the Bible wrong, if you did understand it, you could still be a non believer, but your questions and your arguments would be substantially different.


How often do you refer to your Father when you are actually talking about yourself?


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 24, 2018)

bullethead said:


> How often do you refer to your Father when you are actually talking about yourself?


You just reinforced your lack of understanding of the subject.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Evil spirits in the Bible? In whom god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not?




I know you are talking about Satan.
So Satan is a fallen angel, god and evil spirit?
Elaborate.
I'd like you to spell this one out.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> You just reinforced your lack of understanding of the subject.


No spotlite. "Understanding" something is not going along with suspending the twisted bullsnort just for the sake of it.

Explain in depth to me.
Jesus often referred to his Father. Was he talking about himself?

You used husband and son. Jesus/god were never husbands and only one could be a son.

I am a father and I am a son for two distinctly different reasons.
I am not the father of myself nor am I my own son.

Your turn...


----------



## bullethead (Oct 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> You just reinforced your lack of understanding of the subject.


 Getty Lee, Alex Lifeson, Neal Peart are seperate people, but together they are Rush.
There is no Rush without all of them playing together.
When interviewed, they will each be called by their Proper different names, but the interview will have been with Rush. But the reality is they ARE three totally seperate individuals.
Is THAT what you are telling me GodHead is?

Maybe Lynyrd Skynyrd is a better example. People think that is One guy too???

Rock Gods??? Rock Spirits?


----------



## 660griz (Oct 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Yes. But it would have robbed of you of looking


I don't have to look. I have read the Bible. However, being a non-believer, there is no way my interpretation is correct. Trying to get an answer from someone that talks the talk. That seems to be difficult too. Oh well.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I only have a relationship with the one......


Relationship is a very broad term.
Spouse releationship, work relationship, professional relationship etc...you have those with more than one woman spotlite.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 24, 2018)

bullethead said:


> No spotlite. "Understanding" something is not going along with suspending the twisted bullsnort just for the sake of it.
> 
> Explain in depth to me.
> Jesus often referred to his Father. Was he talking about himself?
> ...


Do you understand the verb of manifest, and the word spirit?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Do you understand the verb of manifest, and the word spirit?


I do understand them.
I would love for you to type it all out for me as how you are able to turn three seperate into one whole.

Then, you can explain this in depth so as I am able to understand you perfectly.

John 5:26
26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 24, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I do understand them.
> I would love for you to type it all out for me as how you are able to turn three seperate into one whole.
> 
> Then, you can explain this in depth so as I am able to understand you perfectly.
> ...


The way this works is if you “regurgitate” scripture, you need to explain it.

As far as three separate into one. I will ask you again, do you understand the verb part of manifest? And do you understand what “spirit” is? Believing the Bible for truth or being realistic at this point is not irrelevant, what is relevant is understanding that it’s self explanatory in the scriptures if you read without automatically condemning it.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 24, 2018)

j_seph said:


> To believe and to be saved are two different things



Zackly!  I believe Hilter was real.  That don’t make me a Nazi.   I know.  I know.  It goes against the Athiest  meme.


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## bullethead (Oct 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> The way this works is if you “regurgitate” scripture, you need to explain it.
> 
> As far as three separate into one. I will ask you again, do you understand the verb part of manifest? And do you understand what “spirit” is? Believing the Bible for truth or being realistic at this point is not irrelevant, what is relevant is understanding that it’s self explanatory in the scriptures if you read without automatically condemning it.


I asked you to explain it to me in detail as the way you mean it to be so I can see your intended use and meaning.
If you want to keep avoiding it, that is up to you.


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## bullethead (Oct 24, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Zackly!  I believe Hilter was real.  That don’t make me a Nazi.   I know.  I know.  It goes against the Athiest  meme.


If only you knew how stupid that sounds...then again if you had that capability,  you wouldn't waste bandwith in the first place.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 25, 2018)

bullethead said:


> If only you knew how stupid that sounds...then again if you had that capability,  you wouldn't waste bandwith in the first place.


He really doesn't give this stuff a single thought before he posts.
If it goes against the Atheist meme then any Atheist who believes Jesus actually existed is a Christian according to Atheists.
Thoughtless.


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