# Speaking in Tongues



## Tim L (Jul 9, 2008)

Well I'm almost afraid to ask this because of the way things can be misunderstood and taken the wrong way, but I'm just curious....the Bible is pretty plain that when the apostles and their followers were filled with the holy sprit and spoke in tongues in the early church it was so that when they preached, people from other lands could understand them in their own native language; it also mentions that there should be a translater present...That was (in the early church) the purpose of speaking in tongues according to the bible.

Now, if that was the purpose as the bibles states that it was, what is happening today when folks speak in tongues and they are not preaching to folks from other lands so that they can hear the gospel in their own tongue?

And if it is something else that is not derived from the holy sprit, what is it?

Again, I'm just curious.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 9, 2008)

Rouster said:


> Now, if that was the purpose as the bibles states that it was, what is happening today when folks speak in tongues and they are not preaching to folks from other lands so that they can hear the gospel in their own tongue?



Speaking jibberish to call attention to themselves.



Rouster said:


> And if it is something else that is not derived from the holy sprit, what is it?



Their own selfish pride inside talking.  I know you are probably driving at demon possession...not sure if I'd go that far, but I know it aint the Holy Spirit!


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## BKA (Jul 9, 2008)

op2:


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## matthewsman (Jul 9, 2008)

*You'll hear it three ways*

It will be explained to you in three different ways in modern full gospel churches.

One will be the way you explained it,like at Pentecost..."They were all amazed that they all heard in their own language ,but they were from Galilee"Or something to that effect.Modern churches will also prolly witness to you about their missionarys occasionally getting in the spirit and speaking directly to those they are discipling without an interpreter...

The second way will be tongues of prophecy.That is where one receives the prophecy in tongues and someone else receives the interpretation....

Then there are the "gibberish" type tongues that some claim are a "prayer language" or that their souls are praying unutterable things for them...

Some of those churches teach that without tongues,you haven't received the Holy Ghost as evidenced in the Bible,but they often forget the "rushing mighty wind"or "the tongues of fire" on their heads..


I've seen all,some hard to explain and believable..Then I've seen others that were hard to believe... 

Do a search on "glossiolia".That may be spelled wrong but is close enough to get you there..You'll find that it is common to many religions,Christian and otherwise.


I personally don't think it is a part of the church today as it usually happens.It generally doesn't happen today as it did in the Bible,sort of a copycat...Much of the modern day tongues movement springs from the Asuza St. church in the 1940's if I remember correctly...


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## Dogmusher (Jul 9, 2008)

Rouster said:


> Well I'm almost afraid to ask this because of the way things can be misunderstood and taken the wrong way, but I'm just curious....the Bible is pretty plain that when the apostles and their followers were filled with the holy sprit and spoke in tongues in the early church it was so that when they preached, people from other lands could understand them in their own native language; it also mentions that there should be a translater present...That was (in the early church) the purpose of speaking in tongues according to the bible.
> 
> Now, if that was the purpose as the bibles states that it was, what is happening today when folks speak in tongues and they are not preaching to folks from other lands so that they can hear the gospel in their own tongue?
> 
> ...


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## SBG (Jul 9, 2008)

Get him Chris!


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## EMC-GUN (Jul 9, 2008)

I've been told that if you don't speak in a tongue you are not saved. BALDERDASH!!!!!!! The Bible lists spiritual gifts and their importance to the church and the Kingdom. I have seen people begging for tongues and constantly hunting and searching for them. Me personally, I would rather speak a word of prophecy, or something else that is spiritually "gifted". Actually I want what God wants for me. Maybe it's a tongue, maybe prophecy, maybe healing. He knows and I trust in him.


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## JohnK3 (Jul 9, 2008)

If you don't speak in tongues you're not saved?

WHEW!  My dad finally got saved, then.  When he had his stroke, he was in church and just all of the sudden sat down and started "speaking in tongues."  (Stroke affected the speech centers.)  At least, that's how the pastor described it.  [grin]


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## Dunamis (Jul 9, 2008)

I've been waiting for this to come up. Ya'll don't get too far ahead of me! I'm in the middle of cleaning my old house up! I'll hit you guys up when I get back to the hotel;! ARGH!!


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## crackerdave (Jul 9, 2008)

Paul said that if somebody walked into a church from off the street,and that was what they saw and heard,they would think "these folks are NUTS!"and turn around and walk out and probably never set foot in another church.Of course,those aren't the apostle Paul's exact words,but you can see the point.
If a person speaking in tongues is not edifying the other members,they are not doing anything for God - only for themselves,in my opinion.


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## Dunamis (Jul 9, 2008)

I am not nearly as educated on this subject as I would like to be. My “_spiritual father_” is in the process of teaching me concerning this subject. He asked me to not teach on this subject until Jesus released me to do so. What I can do is tell you that “_tongue_s” is taught by many to be a single spiritual gift, this is where a lot of confusion comes in. From what I’ve learned so far, speaking in tongues has NOTHING to do with whether or not you are saved. You can be saved and go to Glory and have had never spoken in tongues.

_1 Cor 12:10 – “To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; *to another [divers] kinds of tongues*; to another the interpretation of tongues:”_

Divers kinds of tongues simply means that there are more than one operation (_facet_) of this gift. I choose not to debate these points simply because I don’t know enough about them. However, I will introduce some information for discussion purposes only. Besides, I would hate to make myself to look like idiot (_not that it’s all that hard for me to NOT make an idiot out of myself_). I also don’t want to disrespect my "_spiritual father_".

List of the different operations of tongues:


Tongues: Tongues of Men (Acts Chapt2 when different ethnicities heard the message in their native tongue)

Tongues: Prayer Language (the "Red Phone" between you and the Father)
Tongues: Prophetic (Message deliverer and translator for edification of the Body)

Tongues: Tongues of Angels


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## EMC-GUN (Jul 10, 2008)

I totally understand that you need not be "gifted" with tongues to be saved and enter the Kingdom. On another note I know of a young man who was asked if he was saved. Did he know for sure he was going to be with God if he died. He said he wasn't sure of his salvation, but he could speak in tongues. SAY WHAT?!?!?!?! There are tongues that are counterfeit as well. Rangerdave hit it precisely and scripturally, it is to edify the Church (the body of Christ) and it is to be interpreted. I have heard and seen some wacky things in my walk with Christ and some of them have not been of the same Spirit that indwells me!


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## Israel (Jul 10, 2008)

Rouster said:


> Well I'm almost afraid to ask this because of the way things can be misunderstood and taken the wrong way, but I'm just curious....the Bible is pretty plain that when the apostles and their followers were filled with the holy sprit and spoke in tongues in the early church it was so that when they preached, people from other lands could understand them in their own native language; it also mentions that there should be a translater present...That was (in the early church) the purpose of speaking in tongues according to the bible.
> 
> Now, if that was the purpose as the bibles states that it was, what is happening today when folks speak in tongues and they are not preaching to folks from other lands so that they can hear the gospel in their own tongue?
> 
> ...



Part of the answer is in your question. "because of the way things can be misunderstood"
Please read what Peter had to say about this gift...especially in reference to what is being described in the Tanach in Isaiah. 
Sometimes tongues is a language of men...sometimes not.
It is the gift of God to his people for rest from trying to force their minds to be molded by words for precision in expression. 
Unless you have come to this very frustrating place...where you discover your own language is a very poor vehicle for expressing yourself to God it is difficult to see the benefit of talking in what others would describe as gibberish.
But that is also part of walking in faith, being willing to be thought a fool by others in your obedience to the spirit.
Now, who can deny that any gift can be misused? I have seen the greatest gift abused and debased simply because men want to draw attention to themselves...some even use the name of Christ to gather earthly wealth and power. And although some may therefore hold that name of no esteem...do we?

If one can see God already knows what we have need of before we ask...why do we still cary about in these weak frames a sincere _need_ to be heard anyway? 
If one can see that there is absolutely nothing we can _add_ to God...why do we also still carry a sincere need to heap praise upon him?
God understands and is merciful to us in our weak state. Do we really believe English is the language of heaven? Do we know there is a place where words do not have _definitions_ but mean exactly and precisely what they are?

I do not exalt this gift. But I do not diminish it, either.


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## Dunamis (Jul 10, 2008)

Man I got up this morning hoping to add a little bit, but ya'll done said it all.


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## Tim L (Jul 10, 2008)

Good points and responses...again I hope I wasn't coming across condemning this practice, just trying to get a better undertanding of it's justification based on the bible...when I was growing up, my mom used to play the piano for different churches; one was the Banning Church of God, where they spoke in tongues.  Whatever was going on, those were just good down to earth Georgia folks and whatever was happening seemed bona fide.


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## jkdodge (Jul 10, 2008)

Dunamis said:


> I am not nearly as educated on this subject as I would like to be. My “_spiritual father_” is in the process of teaching me concerning this subject. He asked me to not teach on this subject until Jesus released me to do so. What I can do is tell you that “_tongue_s” is taught by many to be a single spiritual gift, this is where a lot of confusion comes in. From what I’ve learned so far, speaking in tongues has NOTHING to do with whether or not you are saved. You can be saved and go to Glory and have had never spoken in tongues.
> 
> _1 Cor 12:10 – “To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; *to another [divers] kinds of tongues*; to another the interpretation of tongues:”_
> 
> ...



You spoke the words right out of my mouth. I read this post last night and at first got all excited thinking it was a slam. I for one speak in Tongues and it seems like I'm persecuted because of it from other religions. I as well don't know a lot about it but do know this. I was filled with the holy spirit about 2 years ago while praying at a alter. I have not been the same man since. I feel Tongues is like a weapon against the devil that he can not understand.  I have always said to non believers in tongues. You choose your weapons against the devil and ill choose mine. Now my wife does not speak in Tongues, I don't think that god gives everyone the gift of tongues Evan if you ask for it. I do how ever think god gives different gifts to different folks and there are a lot of different gifts the holy spirit gives. Now I have never personally given a word of Tongues in a service but I do pray in Tongues. When a word is given in Tongues in our church there are a couple of different people that have the gift of interpretation that say what was said. I also agree that some people that say they have the gift of Tongues are full of it. I'm not sure how that boy could say he was not sure if he was going to heaven and he had the gift but nor will I judge that. I would how ever be very careful around him because I do believe that Satin does come in all forms


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## mark-7mag (Jul 10, 2008)

I echo the same thoughts sent by jkdodge. I belong to a pentcostal church and have been around spirit filled church's all my life. Speaking in tongues is a gift that not everyone receives.It is a personal language between you and God that is not always interpreted. One thing is certain,Satan can not understand it. It is evidence to me that Christ is alive and with us. You can't be in a church when the holy sprit moves and not be touched or moved yourself. Throughout my life, especialy when I had drifted away from God, if I ever started to question  if Christ was real, I would always remember those sermons where the holy spirit would take over . It is something undecribable to someone who has never expirienced it, but you know that it is no doubt "real" and it is from heaven.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 10, 2008)

Dunamis said:


> _1 Cor 12:10 – “To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; *to another [divers] kinds of tongues*; to another the interpretation of tongues:”_




So this verse also talks about working miracles....if you believe that the gift of tongues is still given today, do you also believe that some are given the gift of miracles?


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## Big Texun (Jul 10, 2008)

Dkfhs skissh eixis skoosllh vermullshin herdabinst oft majokitwatoma. Akokstil hipsmot bilditwin o batton ol arejiwah.  Hertwinski u liberatumas o videnliden a twinybotter.

Iridizquatch?


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## yellowhammer (Jul 10, 2008)

*Speaking in tongues*

If you don`t have the gift of tongues,don`t ridicule others who may have the gift.The Bible states that speaking in tongues can be a gift received from the Holy Spirit.Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not understood by those who have not been there.It has nothing to do with water.Everything in the Word was valid when it was written,and is still valid today,no matter what some denominations say.If you don`t believe in some of the Bible,why believe in any of it?


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## crackerdave (Jul 10, 2008)

yellowhammer said:


> If you don`t have the gift of tongues,don`t ridicule others who may have the gift.The Bible states that speaking in tongues can be a gift received from the Holy Spirit.Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not understood by those who have not been there.It has nothing to do with water.Everything in the Word was valid when it was written,and is still valid today,no matter what some denominations say.If you don`t believe in some of the Bible,why believe in any of it?



Was not Jesus Himself baptized in water by John? How can you say baptism has nothing to do with water?


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## jkdodge (Jul 10, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> Dkfhs skissh eixis skoosllh vermullshin herdabinst oft majokitwatoma. Akokstil hipsmot bilditwin o batton ol arejiwah.  Hertwinski u liberatumas o videnliden a twinybotter.
> 
> Iridizquatch?



I would be very carefull mocking god!


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## jkdodge (Jul 10, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> Was not Jesus Himself baptized in water by John? How can you say baptism has nothing to do with water?



Ranger I think you have miss understood what he was trying to say about baptism. I beleive and tell me if im wrong yellow but I think he was refering to the baptism of the holy spirt (speaking in Tongues) Not the Baptized like in the Jordan


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## kw5891 (Jul 10, 2008)

Rouster said:


> Well I'm almost afraid to ask this because of the way things can be misunderstood and taken the wrong way, but I'm just curious....the Bible is pretty plain that when the apostles and their followers were filled with the holy sprit and spoke in tongues in the early church it was so that when they preached, people from other lands could understand them in their own native language; it also mentions that there should be a translater present...That was (in the early church) the purpose of speaking in tongues according to the bible.
> 
> Now, if that was the purpose as the bibles states that it was, what is happening today when folks speak in tongues and they are not preaching to folks from other lands so that they can hear the gospel in their own tongue?
> 
> ...


i love it speaking in tongues praise God the baptist are going to be all right. now huba bubaa is not there yet lol


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## kw5891 (Jul 10, 2008)

jkdodge said:


> Ranger I think you have miss understood what he was trying to say about baptism. I beleive and tell me if im wrong yellow but I think he was refering to the baptism of the holy spirt (speaking in Tongues) Not the Baptized like in the Jordan


hello brother


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## farmasis (Jul 11, 2008)

yellowhammer said:


> Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not understood by those who have not been there.


 
All Christians have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. It happens at the time of salvation. It has made some people "speak in tongues" when it comes on them. "Speaking in tongues" do not make one more spiritual than others who do not. I do not believe you recieve a baptism or the Holy Spirit more than once.


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## Dunamis (Jul 11, 2008)

_-"All Christians have been baptized in the Holy Spirit."_

I choose to believe otherwise. Not all Christians are baptized in the Holy Ghost. It is a separate event all together.

_-"It happens at the time of salvation. It has made some people "speak in tongues" when it comes on them."_ 

At the acceptance of salvation, each person is given the Holy Spirit in measure. This measure of the Holy Ghost is what brings conviction and guides us in our walk with Jesus. While I have known people who sought after Jesus so fervently that water baptism and baptism of the Holy Spirit happened simultaneously.


_-"Speaking in tongues do not make one more spiritual than others who do not." _

Absolutely correct! I believe it was Paul that said that it was better to have good character than to speak in tongues.

_-"I do not believe you recieve a baptism or the Holy Spirit more than once."_

Just as you can choose to be baptised in water as many time as you like, so it is with Baptism in the Holy Ghost. You yourself can't dictate when and where it happens, but God can choose to "baptise" you as many time as He chooses.

_-"Was not Jesus Himself baptized in water by John? How can you say baptism has nothing to do with water?"_

Many see the event of the dove desending on JEse at His water baptism to be His personal experience of being baptised in the Holy Ghost. I dont know for sure, but it is something to think about.


_-"Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not understood by those who have not been there."_

I agree with this statement. It's easy for a person to mock or act in a condesending manner towards something they don't understand. I've seen people who didn't understand this experience leave a "sprirt-filled" service with their mouth watering to experience what they just witnessed. It's an awesome thing!!


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## Israel (Jul 11, 2008)

There is another aspect of this gift I would address regarding faith in God and its practice. It is the implicit understanding of the practitioner that the goodness of God exceeds a believers need to understand what he or she may be saying...
Now, this does not negate Paul's understanding that one may come to know the matters of which one is speaking when spiritual acuity is "tuned up" if you will.
I wholeheartedly believe that part of what we, as believers must overcome and grasp is the hold that _everything_ of this world exerts upon our minds, not the least of which is languages of man...which are limited and in many cases carry with them an inherent burden in expression. 
"Lord, bless Bob and his family after the death of his mother"  We have prayed...but somehow this may seem  deficient in our suplication for brother Bob. So, we might add...Lord, make your comfort, strength and presence a very strong reality during this time...etc." All the time our minds, even if they are informed by a keen spiritual insight, are limited in how we ask...and sometimes this can be very frustrating...we sense a deep need for God to do what only God knows they need...yet do not know if we are asking in full...
This is where God has made provision for us to not only be unburdened...but to also seek precisely according to the Spirit what that Spirit desires for this situation. Paul even comes to describe this call of deep unto deep (well beyond and more fundamental than the mind) often as groanings which cannot be uttered. In another place he describes
“For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.”  

Now, all of this is senseless to the one who is still living according to "his own understanding"...that is the one who must filter everything he knows or believes of the Lord through his own mind first rather than having his mind informed and changed by the spirit. God is different, very different than all that our minds sense. His ways are also very different than man's...and unless and until we come to see the very duplicitous and treasonous nature of the mind of man in its rebellion to God...we make very little spiritual progress. The mind of man which is constantly exalting itself and seeking to dethrone God has been polluted and complicit with God's enemy who is a liar from the beginning. We have elevated the mind as the final arbiter of all things (I speak of the unregenerate man...of whose ways we are yet being cleansed)...and therefore all obedience is according to the enemy's prescription..."I will obey what I (the mind) understand." 
But the disciple has learned this very rudimentary truth in walking with the Lord...understanding always and only comes _after_ obedience to the spirit. God never has to explain himself...look at how many times commandments are given appended, not with an explanation, but with the simple statement "I am the Lord".
Now, this does not mean that God considers our understanding as something he disdains, indeed God is the only one who acts in accord with a complete understanding.
We always have acted shortsightedly "this fruit looks OK, must be OK, I think I'll eat some...oh, see, I didn't die..." But what did Jesus do? "this looks horrible, feels horrible...but my father has ordained this for me...it feels like death...it _really is death_ ...but...hey look! I'm alive!!!" 

This is the mind of Christ which is far different than Adam's. When we are brought by God to see farther than just our immediate circumstance, then understanding begins to break through..and this always requires obedience to the instruction to "look higher".


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## Big Texun (Jul 11, 2008)

yellowhammer said:


> If you don`t have the gift of tongues,don`t ridicule others who may have the gift.



Making the assumption that you are referring to my post, accusing me of ridiculing others... How do you know that you  aren't the one mocking me for giving a profound response in tongue?


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## Israel (Jul 11, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> Making the assumption that you are referring to my post, accusing me of ridiculing others... How do you know that you  aren't the one mocking me for giving a profound response in tongue?


not sure if there is a gift of writing in tongues...can't say I've ever seen it


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## rjcruiser (Jul 11, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> So this verse also talks about working miracles....if you believe that the gift of tongues is still given today, do you also believe that some are given the gift of miracles?



Anyone?


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## tjbones (Jul 11, 2008)

I suppose ignorance is bliss...the fact is, the Bible says that 
different spiritual gifts exist and within those gifts there are a variety of effects...the Bible says every believer has at least one...It says that tongues is one of those gifts...Apostle Paul said he spoke in tongues more than all the folks in the church at Corinth...He also said - and this is addressed to the "church" (believers) and "saints" (believers) that they didn't ALL speak in tongues (so regardless of what denominational doctrines suggest - it is NOT a requirement)...Paul also says not to forbid speaking in tongues ...The Bible does not says any of the gifts have ceased... But in I Corinthians it appears that Paul is trying to say they are making far more of this gift than necessary...That would cause me to think that churches or individuals who "identify" themselves and separate themselves based on this gift are in error...As are those who prohibit or discourage the practice...The point is, the Word of God teaches that all the gifts are distributed as God sees fit...It never says that our individual "experiences" make the Word of God void...Therefore, if you don't speak in tongues that is perfectly ok according to God...But you do have a gift, God would want you to use it...Seek to identify it...If you DO speak in tongues, you are ok as well...But don't make ANY spiritual gift what you hang your salvation or Christianity on...Jesus said not to get all wrapped up in being able to cast out demons, etc...but to thank God your undeserving carcass is going to heaven!


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## mark-7mag (Jul 11, 2008)

Mostly Penticostal Churches such as "Church of God". You are welcome to come visit my church, "Church at Liberty Square " in Cartersville. Keep in mind however that speaking in tongues does not always happen.


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## Dunamis (Jul 11, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Anyone?



Yes, I believe this...


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## rjcruiser (Jul 11, 2008)

Dunamis said:


> Yes, I believe this...



Who has been healed lately?  I've never seen someone healed by a preacher before...well, except on TV by some holy water.  Of course, there are the Benny Hinn's of the world, that say they can heal, but I don't think that is real either.  

Just curious.  

I think you must be careful with I Cor 12:10.  The gifts mentioned in this passage were gifts only given to the apostles and used during the setting up of the NT church.  I'm not saying that the Lord can't heal people, I just don't think that He does it through people doing miracles...He does it on His own.

So along with not believing Miracles are done today, I don't believe Tongues are used today (therefore no interpretation is needed).


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## ambush80 (Jul 11, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> Making the assumption that you are referring to my post, accusing me of ridiculing others... How do you know that you  aren't the one mocking me for giving a profound response in tongue?



Because judging (or discerning or whatever....) is what y'all do.


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## mark-7mag (Jul 11, 2008)

why don't you believre tongues are used today? I hear people speaking in tongues all the time at church and it is spoken by people that I personaly know.


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## toddboucher (Jul 11, 2008)

doesn't everyone use thier tongue when they speak!


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## mark-7mag (Jul 11, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> When did Pentecostals start doing this?  Has it been since that religion started or something that started later?  Are Pentecostals the only ones that do it?



I can't answer the first part. I can tell you that when one of our Church's founding members started the Church in his living room in the 1930's , they were doing it then. I'm sure that there may be other denominations that  are "spirit filled" , I just don't know of any personaly.


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## jkdodge (Jul 11, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Who has been healed lately?  I've never seen someone healed by a preacher before...well, except on TV by some holy water.  Of course, there are the Benny Hinn's of the world, that say they can heal, but I don't think that is real either.
> 
> Just curious.
> 
> ...



Rj, First off if a preacher is telling you he heals people run.  Preachers do not heal folks the Lord does. Now I believe  that god uses preachers to speak words of healing over folks but a preacher cant heal you. Faith is a huge part of healing. In order to be healed I believe you haft to have faith. Tongues are used today my friend. And when a word is given in tongues it is required that there be an interpretation  of the word. Our church has folks that speak in tongues but as well not every service will you hear a word. How ever a lot of people do pray in tongues. Me being one of them.


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## jkdodge (Jul 11, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> When did Pentecostals start doing this?  Has it been since that religion started or something that started later?  Are Pentecostals the only ones that do it?



no dawg2 pentecostals are not the only ones that do this. In fact one of the largest southern Baptist churches and I wont name the church you can pm me and ask if you would like to know, just had a situation where the paster during a service fell under the holy spirt and started speaking in tongues as well as some of the people in the congergation SP?. Being that it is not agreed on by the Southern Baptist Convention the pastor was ridiculed for doing so. As far as I know the pastor is still there and nothing has been done about it. This happened in Tenn.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 11, 2008)

jkdodge said:


> Rj, First off if a preacher is telling you he heals people run.  Preachers do not heal folks the Lord does.



But where do you draw the line?  Because the passage of scripture you give to back up tongues is I Cor 12:10 talks about people performing miracles?  If tongues are being used now....why is it just the tongues part of the verse and not the miracles part?


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## rjcruiser (Jul 11, 2008)

toddboucher said:


> doesn't everyone use thier tongue when they speak!



Hee hee haa haa.....Okay...I believe in that one


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## rjcruiser (Jul 11, 2008)

mark-7mag said:


> why don't you believre tongues are used today? I hear people speaking in tongues all the time at church and it is spoken by people that I personaly know.






			
				rjcruise said:
			
		

> I think you must be careful with I Cor 12:10. The gifts mentioned in this passage were gifts only given to the apostles and used during the setting up of the NT church. I'm not saying that the Lord can't heal people, I just don't think that He does it through people doing miracles...He does it on His own.



Same reason I don't believe in miracles.  Again...can't just believe the last half of the verse is still active and not the first part.  These were gifts only given to the apostles....in other words...none of these gifts are given today.

I Cor 12:10   To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues


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## EMC-GUN (Jul 11, 2008)

According to the Southern Baptist Convention if you speak in tongues you are not approved by their board for ministry or mission work. Pretty sad.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 11, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Well, let the flaming begin after this post.
> 
> 
> I have been in churches of all kinds. In my life's work sometimes it is not possible to go to the church of my choice so I have to go to the service of the chaplain who is there at the time.
> ...




No flame for you with this post DW.....I agree 100% with ya.  I guess I'm going to get some more flaming myself.


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## Big7 (Jul 11, 2008)

jkdodge said:


> no dawg2 pentecostals are not the only ones that do this. In fact one of the largest southern Baptist churches and I wont name the church you can pm me and ask if you would like to know, just had a situation where the paster during a service fell under the holy spirt and started speaking in tongues as well as some of the people in the congergation SP?. Being that it is not agreed on by the Southern Baptist Convention the pastor was ridiculed for doing so. As far as I know the pastor is still there and nothing has been done about it. This happened in Tenn.



If it is so true, why all the hush-hush about 
the paticular Church/Pastor?


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## Sterlo58 (Jul 11, 2008)

All I know is that I went to my great aunt's church when I was a child. People started speaking in tongues and one started rolling in the aisles.

I NEVER WENT BACK - It scared the living daylights out of me.

I don't cotton to the notion that it is required to be saved or that it is even real. There , I said it.


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## jkdodge (Jul 11, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> So Baptists have to get prior approval to speak in tongues?



Thats not what I said I said they do not believe in it. Therefore they do not condone it in there churches but when it happened in one that happen to be one of the biggest in their denomination $$ there was not much they could do about it.


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## jkdodge (Jul 11, 2008)

Sterlo58 said:


> All I know is that I went to my great aunt's church when I was a child. People started speaking in tongues and one started rolling in the aisles.
> 
> I NEVER WENT BACK - It scared the living daylights out of me.
> 
> I don't cotton to the notion that it is required to be saved or that it is even real. There , I said it.



sterlo, I could see where this would scare someone that  has not been around it before. Now at my church I have never seen people jump pews or roll all over the place but I have seen a few break out in a run when they were set free of something. I went to a church a few mths. back to hear a singer sing. I will not name the type of church because i am not into bashing religions. But when she had finished her song I simply said Amen and I swear you could have heard a pin drop.  They all looked back at me like I was crazy.


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## Sterlo58 (Jul 11, 2008)

jkdodge said:


> sterlo, I could see where this would scare someone that  has not been around it before. Now at my church I have never seen people jump pews or roll all over the place but I have seen a few break out in a run when they were set free of something. I went to a church a few mths. back to hear a singer sing. I will not name the type of church because i am not into bashing religions. But when she had finished her song I simply said Amen and I swear you could have heard a pin drop.  They all looked back at me like I was crazy.



I have been to a church like that before also. Kinda too formal and quiet. I know what you mean


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## mark-7mag (Jul 11, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Well, let the flaming begin after this post.
> 
> 
> I have been in churches of all kinds. In my life's work sometimes it is not possible to go to the church of my choice so I have to go to the service of the chaplain who is there at the time.
> ...




Wow! Sometimes it's best not to even get into these discussions when I hear comments like this. Like I mentioned before, I have been around spirit filled church's all my life and witnesed first hand the holy spirit take over a sermon and not only speaking in tongues but a good portion of the congregation " fall out in the spirit". It is almost un explainable to most people when they hear about this or see it and not know what is happening. Therefore, to say that it is "hooey" is almost making the same assumption about someone filled with the holy spirit as "non belivers"  in Christ make about believers. Let me ask you this: If you are believer in Christ, do you take it personaly when non believers make a mockery of believers and say that they are "kooks" ?  To me ,what you said about speaking in tongues , you are in a since saying the same thing.


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## Big7 (Jul 11, 2008)

Sterlo58 said:


> I don't cotton to the notion that it is required to be saved or that it is even real. There , I said it.



What he said - the last part anyway


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## addictedtodeer (Jul 11, 2008)

If anyone is interested 
Martin Llyod Jones has a series on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (24 sermons).
He died in the late 70's early 80's but is well respected on both sides of the issue (His stance on the Holy Spirit and the gifts also upsets both sides).

He's died in the wool Welsh, so He's not an excitable southern evangelist(just preparing you if you are going to listen to his sermons). He was well educated (He was a MD before becoming a pastor) a committed man of God, and a heart to see the Bride of Christ revived.

If you are interested you can get the sermons on MP3's here:
Baptism and the gifts of the Holy Spirit

to read a brief outline of his beliefs I've included a link to Wikipedia. I must caution you  his view of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not what is commonly held today.

Here is a sample of his thoughts:
"_But the danger is to think of the baptism of the Holy Spirit only in terms of gifts rather than in terms of something much more important, which is this: the mark, ultimately, and proof of whether we have received the Spirit or not is surely something that happens in the realm of our spiritual experience. You cannot read the New Testament accounts of the people to whom the Spirit came, these people upon whom He fell, or who received as the Galatian Christians and all these others had done, without realizing that the result was that their whole spirit was kindled. The Lord Jesus Christ became real to them in a way that He had never been before . . . the result was a great love for Christ shed abroad in their hearts by the Holy Spirit.
"Now this surely is something which should cause us to pause for a moment and mediate very deeply and very seriously. This is an experience, as I understand the teaching, which is the birthright of every Christian. 'For the promise,' says the apostle Peter, 'is unto you' -- and not only unto you but -- 'to your children, and to all that are afar off (Acts 2:39). It is not confined just to these people on the Day of Pentecost, but is offered to and promised to all Christian people. And in its essence it means that we are conscious of the incoming, as it were, of the Spirit of God and are given a sense of the glory of God and the reality of His being, the reality of the Lord Jesus Christ, and we love him. That is why these New Testament writers can say a thing like this about the Christians: 'Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory' . . ."

 "A definition, therefore, which I would put to your consideration is something like this: the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the initial experience of glory and the reality and the love of the Father and of the Son. Yes, you may have many further experiences of that, but the first experience, I would suggest, is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The saintly John Fletcher of Madeley put it like this: 'Every Christian should have his Pentecost.'"
"'This is life eternal,' our Lord prayed, 'that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent' (John 17:3). And it is only the Spirit who can enable us to know that. The baptism of the Holy Spirit, then is the difference between believing these things, accepting the teaching, exercising faith----- that is something that we all know, and without the Holy Spirit we cannot even do that, as we have seen-----and having a consciousness and experience of these truths in a striking and signal manner. The first experience of that, I am suggesting, is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, or the Holly Spirit falling on you, or receiving the Spirit. It is this remarkable and unusual experience which is described so frequently in the book of Acts and which, as we see clearly from the epistles, must have been the possession of the members of the early Christian Church." _


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## David Pinner (Jul 11, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Same reason I don't believe in miracles.  Again...can't just believe the last half of the verse is still active and not the first part.  These were gifts only given to the apostles....in other words...none of these gifts are given today.
> 
> I Cor 12:10   To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues



Amen brother, ONLY ONLY ONLY to the apostles. to think otherwise is foolish


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 11, 2008)

I havent read the entire thread, but I will tell you what I know about the baptism in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues.

a) it is a prayer language. one that God understands and that Satan does not.  The language is given to you by the spirit because oftentimes we as humans do not even know what we should be praying for. 
b) it is very often translated, also given by the Holy Spirit, as an exhortation or instruction to the body of Christ.
c) It is also still used as a means of God speaking through you to people who speak a different language.  A very good friend of mine is a preacher and has done mission work.  His interpreter did not show up one night in S. America and the Holy Spirit enabled him to speak in perfectly fluent Spanish to the hundreds of people who were gathered.  He can still speak perfectly fluent spanish to this day, having never actually "learned" it.  Another friend of mine gave a message in tongues in a church service, not knowing what he was saying.  When he was finished someone walked up to him and told him that he had been speaking in a perfectly fluent Eastern European language, although which specific one escapes me right now.

to the people who are "scared" of it and do not believe it is "real," how can you argue with the Bible?  if you believe any of the Bible, why not believe all of it?  If you or I get to "choose" which parts are true and which parts are not, what good is the Word of God, the standard by which we live our lives?  It is not a standard anymore because it is open to complete open interpretation.

As a Pentecostal person, I also do not believe you need to be filled with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues to go to heaven, but it is indeed very real, very relevant, very useful in your walk with God, and very powerful in your quest to reach others for Christ.

If you've never seen a mircale in church I suggest you start looking for a new church where the Spirit abides.  I've seen many, many healings personally and have been healed myself.


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## PJason (Jul 11, 2008)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> If you've never seen a mircale in church I suggest you start looking for a new church where the Spirit abides.  I've seen many, many healings personally and have been healed myself.



I witness a Miracle at every Mass.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 11, 2008)

PJason said:


> I witness a Miracle at every Mass.



good for you.

I would also suggest that you people that do not believe in tongues or the filling fo the Holy Spirit to be very careful about speaking out against it, especially if you are inclined to say it is of the Devil.  Matthew 12:32 says "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: _but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come._"


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## Dunamis (Jul 11, 2008)

Amen, Doc!

_“Who has been healed lately?”_

I have a pastor-friend that was born with one leg shorter than the other. The Lord, through the “Prayer of Faith”, caused his leg to grow right in front of His eyes.  

_“I've never seen someone healed by a preacher before...well, except on TV by some holy water. Of course, there are the Benny Hinn's of the world, that say they can heal, but I don't think that is real either.”_

As for me personally, I’ve never witnessed someone being healed. I think the reason we don’t see healing much anymore is because, quite simply, we lack the faith. More Christian than not , believe that healings only tok place in the Bible.

_
“I think you must be careful with I Cor 12:10. The gifts mentioned in this passage were gifts only given to the apostles and used during the setting up of the NT church.”_

Actually the gifts mentioned in said text is meant not only for the Apostles, but for you and I as well. There’s not one scripture that sys the “Gifts of the Spirit” are solely mean for the folk in the Bible.

_“I'm not saying that the Lord can't heal people, I just don't think that He does it through people doing miracles...He does it on His own.”_
People are endowed with giftings from God. We are the “hands of God”, so to speak. God can touch people on His own, but a lot of time He moves through His people.

_“So along with not believing Miracles are done today, I don't believe Tongues are used today (therefore no interpretation is needed).”_

Salvation is a miracle. Miracles are done everyday. Especially in third-world country’s, where they literally have nothing to hold on to but Jesus.

_
“But where do you draw the line? Because the passage of scripture you give to back up tongues is I Cor 12:10 talks about people performing miracles? If tongues are being used now....why is it just the tongues part of the verse and not the miracles part?”_

Luke 24:49 – “And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”

Christians (natural beings) are empowered by the Holy Ghost to accomplish supernatural taskings.

_“none of these gifts are given today.”_

Incorrect


_“So Baptists have to get prior approval to speak in tongues?”_

They do if tongues doesn’t jive with their “what we believe”  convenant

_“Speaking in tongues and faith healing is hooey.”_

On one hand to not believe in it isn’t a bad ting because it won’t effect your salvation. On the other hand, because you don’t believe in it doesn’t make it less a reality. Further more speaking against something that IS of God is dangerous ground to tread 

_
“I NEVER WENT BACK - It scared the living daylights out of me.”_

I hear ya! The first time I visited a Four Square Church, my parent got married. During the service the Holy Ghost fell and I thought a bunch of Indians came in the room. I think I pee’d a little it scared me so bad. In my adulthood, I warmed up to it.

_"Amen brother, ONLY ONLY ONLY to the apostles. to think otherwise is foolish"_
Bologna. Supporting text?


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## farmasis (Jul 11, 2008)

Dunamis said:


> _-"All Christians have been baptized in the Holy Spirit."_
> 
> I choose to believe otherwise. Not all Christians are baptized in the Holy Ghost. It is a separate event all together.


 
See 1 cor 12


 12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.  13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

_



			-"I do not believe you recieve a baptism or the Holy Spirit more than once."
		
Click to expand...

_


> Just as you can choose to be baptised in water as many time as you like, so it is with Baptism in the Holy Ghost. You yourself can't dictate when and where it happens, but God can choose to "baptise" you as many time as He chooses.


 
Baptism in water is a choice by imperfect human, baptism in Spirit is by a Holy God. That means would not have done it right the first time.

Eph 4
3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 _There is_ one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who _is_ above all, and through all, and in you<SUP>[a]</SUP> all.


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## mark-7mag (Jul 11, 2008)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> I havent read the entire thread, but I will tell you what I know about the baptism in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues.
> 
> a) it is a prayer language. one that God understands and that Satan does not.  The language is given to you by the spirit because oftentimes we as humans do not even know what we should be praying for.
> b) it is very often translated, also given by the Holy Spirit, as an exhortation or instruction to the body of Christ.
> ...



I think that Doc said it all . The Holy spirit is not required but it sure makes your Journey through this life easier. ALso, I agree that if you havn;t seen miracle's in your church, you need to find another Church.... Also, be carefull making a mockery of the Holy spirit. There are scriptures that warn against it.


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## addictedtodeer (Jul 11, 2008)

mark-7mag said:


> The Holy spirit is not required but it sure makes your Journey through this life easier.



I just want to check, you're referring to the miraculous right? You are not really meaning that the Holy Spirit is not required in the Christian life?

The Holy Spirit is required for everything in the Christian life, not even cessationists would state that the Holy Spirit is not necessary.

The Holy Spirit is the one who awakens us to new life (Ephesians 3:4-6; 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5; Titus 3:4-7), who teaches us scripture (John 14), who is our seal and guarantee (Ephesians 1:13; Ephesians 4:30). He is the one who enables us to worship Jesus (1 Corinthians 12:3).

If the Holy Spirit is not necessary then why would Christ state:
_Mat 12:31  Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 
Mat 12:32  And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. _


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## Tim L (Jul 11, 2008)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> good for you.
> 
> I would also suggest that you people that do not believe in tongues or the filling fo the Holy Spirit to be very careful about speaking out against it, especially if you are inclined to say it is of the Devil.  Matthew 12:32 says "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: _but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come._"




I don't think the majority are speaking against it, simply curious....but I agree, anyone making fun or belittling it may be asking for trouble with their maker...

Like I said when I started this thread, I attended a penticostal church at times when growing up, where most (not all) of the folks spoke in tongues.  I do remember at a revival one night there was alot of tension when a member just couldn't speak in tongues and it caused alot of concern in the church (but I don't know what happen, I think that was about the time mother started playing the piano for a baptist church).

At least to me, when I read the verses describing the gift of tongues, it is describing a gift given to the apostles so that they could preach and be understood in other languages...Also I can't get past the verses about there has to be an intreprder (yea, butchered the spelling) present....But, I could be wrong and I have (and still do) know too many good pentacostal folks to think badly of them and think their not christians...

I guess we will all find out when we get to heaven...  

.


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## farmasis (Jul 11, 2008)

mark-7mag said:


> ALso, I agree that if you havn;t seen miracle's in your church, you need to find another Church....


 

I believe the conversion of one soul from lost to saved is a miracle, so I would agree with the above.


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## crackerdave (Jul 11, 2008)

farmasis said:


> See 1 cor 12
> 
> 
> 12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.  13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
> ...


_

Here is another who forgot that Jesus Himself was baptised in water."Baptism in water is a choice by imperfect human.."_


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## z71gacowboy (Jul 11, 2008)

mark-7mag said:


> I echo the same thoughts sent by jkdodge. I belong to a pentcostal church and have been around spirit filled church's all my life. Speaking in tongues is a gift that not everyone receives.It is a personal language between you and God that is not always interpreted. One thing is certain,Satan can not understand it. It is evidence to me that Christ is alive and with us. You can't be in a church when the holy sprit moves and not be touched or moved yourself. Throughout my life, especialy when I had drifted away from God, if I ever started to question  if Christ was real, I would always remember those sermons where the holy spirit would take over . It is something undecribable to someone who has never expirienced it, but you know that it is no doubt "real" and it is from heaven.




if it is not always interpreted then why does the bible say an interpreter should be present to interpret if speaking in tongues is going on. if there isnt one present this should probably only be going on in your personal closet prayer sessions.


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## jkdodge (Jul 11, 2008)

z71gacowboy said:


> if it is not always interpreted then why does the bible say an interpreter should be present to interpret if speaking in tongues is going on. if there isnt one present this should probably only be going on in your personal closet prayer sessions.



Interpitation is always used in our church when someone gives a word in tongues. Im not sure of the practices of other churches. Now lets not confuse giving a word in tongues out loud infront of a church and praying in the spirt. When praying in the spirt or tongues interpreter is not needed. Its a simple prayer between you and the lord


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## Israel (Jul 12, 2008)

mark-7mag said:


> I think that Doc said it all . The Holy spirit is not required but it sure makes your Journey through this life easier. ALso, I agree that if you havn;t seen miracle's in your church, you need to find another Church.... Also, be carefull making a mockery of the Holy spirit. There are scriptures that warn against it.



Brother, I believe I know what you mean about making your life "easier" because of the ministry of the Holy Spirit...and all I can say in reference to that baptism is it makes Jesus and heavenly things...not simply _clearer_ but that of which you are solely aware. 

This often leads to accusations of fanaticism, being "too heavenly minded to be of worldly good" (an accusation that is a welcome epithet for any believer, or should be) Or just being "out there"...

We so often think people should recognize the Lord in us... yet so often the Lord goes accused when he comes in power upon others.

So, since this discusion of tongues has included some discussion of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I am reminded of what a very wise and blessed brother once told me...and although it was said half facetiously, as so many seemed to always argue what the "proof" of the Holy Spirit's baptism would be...the truth of it still shines through...the proof is often trouble.

Get filled with the Holy Ghost...and you are gonna be led in to trouble. 

You will not lead a quiet armchair bible study in front of a fireplace somewhere with everyone at your feet agreeing and marvelling at your wisdom. 

Jail...maybe...familal rejection...often...the venom of the religious that love their own lives and think "being a fool for Christ" was for Paul's resume alone... definitely...loss of fortune and standing in the community...not an unusual result...being hated by (hopefully) all men for the Lord's sake...a worthy goal.
( and you can always tell the religious in a group, they are the first one's to always disqualify the Lord as the issue, they are quick to settle the matter thusly "Oh, that person just likes being a pain...it has nothing to do with the Lord...") Thus Jesus was easily labeled a troublemaker. 

Funny how things get turned around isn't it? There's one thing one rarely hears that is really a mortal accusation, and it is the one thing I have found that can stifle the Lord's life and word in a disciple almost quicker than anthing else... and that is not being a troublemaker
but a "comfort lover". 

We tell ourselves that "going along to get along" is out of love for not wanting to disturb others...when it is really a rather thin veil for the love we have for our own selves and lives.

I am the worst sinner in this area. I love myself. Pray for me.

Thank God for the handfull of brothers and sisters that were accused of "turning the whole world upside down"...
Would to God they would appear again.


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## Dunamis (Jul 12, 2008)

Amen, Israel! 

Guys, if it would help, a lot of the questions that are getting asked have already been answerd within this thread.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 12, 2008)

Once attended to a Latter Rain church sevice and chanted Allahu Akbar while facing Mecca, which was facing opposite the congragation  or forward like the the worship team. Fit right in I think.


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## Big7 (Jul 12, 2008)

Anyone care to answer my question HERE:
http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=2359831&postcount=54


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## matthewsman (Jul 12, 2008)

*Hey Big 7*



Big7 said:


> Anyone care to answer my question HERE:
> http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=2359831&postcount=54



Good question...There are a lot of churches of various denominations that speak in tingues.I'm sure that's not the only Baptist church it happened in,so I don't know why he wouldn't tell you,unless it was a "I heard it from a friend of mine that in his church he heard"sort of deal...In other words,he may not know the name...

You are in my area...Prospect Methodist and also Gaithers Methodist occasionally have folks speak in tongues and I have heard rumors of it in some Catholicchurches,but I don't know whereOf course many of the churches in our area have full gospel doctrines and you will see it in their churches often...It's strange that God works mostly in the Sunday night service...Better have your shoutin' shoes on then...And it usually occurs when folks are worked up to a fever pitch...It generally doesn't bust out spontaneously...The spiritual state of those folks don't matter much eitherMy ex-wife could rip her whole family off,lie,to me,go to church pray through and be good for a 2 or 3 day period before she was up o her old tricks...Then,some folks were mean as a snake to others,prejudicial etc,then spoke with the tongues of angels

Paulk's church back in the day,well.....they'd pass around a hat full of keys,some of the young marrieds,and whoevers keys the wife pulled out of the hat was the guy she went home with...swingers...shoutin'

I've seen several folks speaking in tongues in various denominations and very rarely has it been in a Biblical fashion...

What's strange to me was the veritable abscence of it until relativly recently..IE the Asuza street movement...Wonder why it ceased for so long,and then popped back up?Was it for just the desciples and 2or 3 generations recently?That doesn't sound right...

More to come...


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## matthewsman (Jul 12, 2008)

*read this*

Pay attention to the overview and the Apostle Pauls differences in tongues and ecstatic utterences...

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/char/biblical.htm


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## matthewsman (Jul 12, 2008)

*another very good arcticle*

By a reformed "tongues speaker...With much sound Biblical references,also mentions the tongues movement in the Mormon church before Asuza streeet and fundemental muslims and Hindus also speaking in tongues..Can it all be of God or are people accepting a counterfeit?

http://www.christianchallenge.org/departingupc/DU008.html


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## SE.GAcoondawg (Jul 12, 2008)

I don't understand the purpose of speaking in tongues in your local church.  There was a need for it at pentecost or any other time it was used in the bible, explain why there is a need for it in a local church where everyone speaks the same language.  Since there is not a need for it seems to me it is only drawing attention to oneself, and i'm pretty sure the Holy Spirit wouldn't do that would he?


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## gordon 2 (Jul 12, 2008)

SE.GAcoondawg said:


> I don't understand the purpose of speaking in tongues in your local church.  There was a need for it at pentecost or any other time it was used in the bible, explain why there is a need for it in a local church where everyone speaks the same language.  Since there is not a need for it seems to me it is only drawing attention to oneself, and i'm pretty sure the Holy Spirit wouldn't do that would he?




Because some people need the emotional connection with the Lord, which their known language is unable to utter for many reasons. From their own language all they know is the utterances of the world, which knows well to dispute, to despise, to descourage, to disown, to wound and to inflict pain with books and tracks, all sorts of expressed ideas and dogma, all lame, but which cannot fashion a sentiment in genuine utterance fitting to heal the wounds they know or the stunted love and suffering they see and live.


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## SE.GAcoondawg (Jul 12, 2008)

Still confused the bible says that the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.  Are you saying that they are taking the place of the Holy Spirit?


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## gordon 2 (Jul 12, 2008)

SE.GAcoondawg said:


> Still confused the bible says that the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.  Are you saying that they are taking the place of the Holy Spirit?



Do children come to their parents with"groanings" and do parents interact with their children with groanings which cannot be uttered? The word is more than the air vibration against the voice box or the script used to express the sounds and meanings. Is the Holy Spirit fully contained in formal  language and scriptures?


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## SE.GAcoondawg (Jul 12, 2008)

Yes children do, but there comes a time when they speak as they are taught in a language that is understood and very familiar.  I do not think the Holy Spirit is contained at all, but the bible said that the Spirit is what makes intercession for us.  Which means I don't have to speak in an unknown language to talk to God, the Spirit intercedes for me.  Are you saying that we cant talk to God without speaking in tongues?  Are you saying there is no need for prayer unless done in a language no one understands?


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## gordon 2 (Jul 12, 2008)

SE.GAcoondawg said:


> Yes children do, but there comes a time when they speak as they are taught in a language that is understood and very familiar.  I do not think the Holy Spirit is contained at all, but the bible said that the Spirit is what makes intercession for us.  Which means I don't have to speak in an unknown language to talk to God, the Spirit intercedes for me.  Are you saying that we cant talk to God without speaking in tongues?  Are you saying there is no need for prayer unless done in a language no one understands?




No bros. I think there is a fundamental problem in gears here. I have to run to work. Perhaps you can quote the scripture you speak of?


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## jkdodge (Jul 12, 2008)

Big7 said:


> If it is so true, why all the hush-hush about
> the paticular Church/Pastor?



Becuase its one of the largest Baptist churches in the Southern Baptist Convention and they do not condone it.  Chattanooga's Central Baptist Church is the church that it happened at if you want to research it.


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## SE.GAcoondawg (Jul 12, 2008)

gordon 2 said:


> No bros. I think there is a fundamental problem in gears here. I have to run to work. Perhaps you can quote the scripture you speak of?



No problem here, I got bible.  The scripture I speak of is Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

It means I pray and the Spirit intercedes for me.  I don't have to speak in some other language.  I don't even know what to pray for according to this scripture.  The spirit intercedes for us, and he speaks to God for us.  Since that takes care of us talking to God, why is there a need for it in local churches where there is not a language difference?  

Every time it was used in bible it was used to spread the gospel not speak to God.  The bible says it was used for a sign to unbelieving jews(who by the way spoke a different language), because the jews required a sign.  The gentiles however did not require a sign.  Every time it was used in the bible people were saved, I guess that every time it is done in these churches someone is getting saved?  Bible also says it must be done by a minimum of two and at the most three and one of those had to interpret, which means it can't be done by just one person.  Bible? I knew you would ask 1cor. 14:27 and go ahead and read verse 28 that is where God said that if there isn't someone to interpret to keep silence in the church.

I'm still confused as to the purpose for it in a local church?


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## Big7 (Jul 12, 2008)

Big7 said:


> Anyone care to answer my question HERE:
> http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=2359831&postcount=54





jkdodge said:


> Becuase its one of the largest Baptist churches in the Southern Baptist Convention and they do not condone it.  Chattanooga's Central Baptist Church is the church that it happened at if you want to research it.



Thanks - and I will give it a look.


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## RoadRunner (Jul 13, 2008)

I do believe that the gifts of the spirit are still in operation today. I also believe that baptism in the Holy Spirit is given so that you might have greater boldness to be a better witness for Jesus Christ. At least that is what I have experienced in my life. The Holy Spirit has equipped me to resist the attacks of satan  more than before. I think that having the baptism in the Holy Spirit should help you mature as a christian so that the fruits of the spirit are more evident in your life. The first one is love. The bible says without love we are as a sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. I would like to encourage those who have doubt about speaking in tongues to read the book of acts and to seek God in this. Ask him to reveal himself to you in this.


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## SE.GAcoondawg (Jul 13, 2008)

RoadRunner said:


> I would like to encourage those who have doubt about speaking in tongues to read the book of acts and to seek God in this. Ask him to reveal himself to you in this.



I have read acts and there was a specific reason it was done in acts, not to speak to God but to witness of God.  It was done to spread the gospel to those who spoke different languages.  It was used to cross over language barriers to non-believers.  It wasn't for believers.  

Like I said give me bible, acts does nothing but support what I have been saying.  If it is needed to speak to God give me some scriptures.


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## 05kodiak (Jul 13, 2008)

mark-7mag said:


> I echo the same thoughts sent by jkdodge. I belong to a pentcostal church and have been around spirit filled church's all my life. Speaking in tongues is a gift that not everyone receives.It is a personal language between you and God that is not always interpreted. One thing is certain,Satan can not understand it. It is evidence to me that Christ is alive and with us. You can't be in a church when the holy sprit moves and not be touched or moved yourself. Throughout my life, especialy when I had drifted away from God, if I ever started to question  if Christ was real, I would always remember those sermons where the holy spirit would take over . It is something undecribable to someone who has never expirienced it, but you know that it is no doubt "real" and it is from heaven.



I agree. My wife received the gift at a Joyce Meyer Conference in Nashville. She was reluctant to tell me because I would think it was fake or strange. After hearing it several times in our church, I think it's one of the most beautiful and inspiring things I've heard. I hope I receive the gift from the Holy Spirit one day!


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## Dunamis (Jul 13, 2008)

There is much more to "Tongues" than the particular operation you've cited in Acts chapter 2. There have been several postings with good information within this thread. I'm still on the road, but I will see if I can clarify some of this when I get settled.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 13, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> If we think it is hooey phooey why would we be worried about speaking against it? Wouldn't we be REQUIRED as faithful Christians to speak against it if we thought it was a fraud against our faith, which personally, I feel it is.
> 
> DW



that will be for You and God to work out.  I'm just telling you what the Bible says.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 14, 2008)

SE... look up 1 Corinthians 12:7
_Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good._ 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, _to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues._ 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. 

The Bible says speaking in tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.  It also says that each one of the manifestations is for the common good.

1 Corinthians 14 also says that the Holy Spirit builds us up personally, enables us to praise and worship God, and enables us to speak so that the Devil can't understand what we are saying.

Why are we convinced that tongues was only for the Apostles in Biblical days?  Are we, today, not carrying the same torch that they carried?  Are we not charged with the same mission as they?  Was the Great Commission only given to the Apostles in those days?  Should we not be concerned with spreading the Gospel of Christ?  If we are charged with the same mission as they were, why would God not give us the same gifts and "equipment" that he gave those aposltes in the early church?  If they needed it, surely we do as well...


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## Israel (Jul 14, 2008)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> SE... look up 1 Corinthians 12:7
> _Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good._ 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, _to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues._ 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
> 
> The Bible says speaking in tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.  It also says that each one of the manifestations is for the common good.
> ...


I would further ask...if the ministries mentioned in Ephesians are for the purpose of bringing us to maturity :

 11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 

 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 

 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 

How could anyone think we have no further need of apostles? Maybe it is this very thinking that "all the apostles are gone" is precisely what keeps the church weak and powerless. I have mentioned it recently but it bears repeating...a very small number of disciples were accused of turning the whole world upside down...today, millions claiming to be born again spirit filled believers seem to barely have much effect on it at all.


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## Spotlite (Jul 14, 2008)

yellowhammer said:


> If you don`t have the gift of tongues,don`t ridicule others who may have the gift.The Bible states that speaking in tongues can be a gift received from the Holy Spirit.Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not understood by those who have not been there.It has nothing to do with water.Everything in the Word was valid when it was written,and is still valid today,no matter what some denominations say.If you don`t believe in some of the Bible,why believe in any of it?







rangerdave said:


> Was not Jesus Himself baptized in water by John? How can you say baptism has nothing to do with water?



water baptism and spiritual baptism are 2 different events.


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## ambush80 (Jul 14, 2008)

yellowhammer said:


> If you don`t believe in some of the Bible,why believe in any of it?



As an outside observer,  it seems to me that that is what all believers do:  believe some of it and not other parts.  Seems Ok to me.  I don't understand the conflict.  Actually, the ones that are trying to follow the bible to the letter are the snake handlers, tongue speakers and head cover wearers.  Extreme fundamentalists.  I'm usually worried about religious fundamentalists but in the case of Christians not so much.  Seems that they keep themselves in such a primitive condition that they can't be much of a threat.  Besides, one of their duties is to be peaceful.

I say live and let live.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 14, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> As an outside observer,  it seems to me that that is what all believers do:  believe some of it and not other parts.  Seems Ok to me.  I don't understand the conflict.  Actually, the ones that are trying to follow the bible to the letter are the snake handlers, tongue speakers and head cover wearers.  Extreme fundamentalists.  I'm usually worried about religious fundamentalists but in the case of Christians not so much.  Seems that they keep themselves in such a primitive condition that they can't be much of a threat.  Besides, one of their duties is to be peaceful.
> 
> I say live and let live.



I believe every word in it, to the letter.  I will not try to lift myself up enough to believe that I can decide which parts of it are true and which parts of it are not.  If a standard is not correct 100% then how can it be a standard?

God gives us the gift of discernment and as educated people we ought to be able to read the Bible in the correct context, which means being able to realize that God meant "if a snake was to bite you while you were doing the work of the Lord, God could save your life and heal you and you won't die."  He's not telling us to go pick snakes up and dance around with them just to prove he's God.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 14, 2008)

Here's a question:

Since some believe that there were only Apostles and Spiritual Gifts in Peter and Paul's time...

Do you think God reveres the Apostle Paul more than he reveres Billy Graham?  How about Billy Sunday?  David Wilkerson?  David Livingston?  Paul Buntain?  Jonathan Edwards?  Jim Elliot?  How about Martin Luther or John Wesley?

Or what about your Pastor who toils in the small, local church year in, year out with no notoriety, no fame, no recognition?  He has a burden for lost souls just like the Apostle Paul and that is all God cares about.  God cares about each and every soul on Earth and a minister who brings one to Christ in a small 50-member congregation in some small S. Georgia town is as vitally important as someone who preaches to thousands.  To all of these people God gives the gift of the power of the Holy Spirit, and with it, the gifts of healing, prophecy, speaking in tongues, interpretation of toungues, etc.


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## matthewsman (Jul 14, 2008)

*? for you Doc...*



Doc_Holliday23 said:


> If a standard is not correct 100% then how can it be a standard?




To what standard do you justify your avatar to?


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 14, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> To what standard do you justify your avatar to?



quality control specs on a 1930 A Model?


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## matthewsman (Jul 14, 2008)

*God gives us discernment*



Doc_Holliday23 said:


> ... as educated people we ought to be able to read the Bible in the correct context, which means being able to realize that God meant "if a snake was to bite you while you were doing the work of the Lord, God could save your life and heal you and you won't die."  He's not telling us to go pick snakes up and dance around with them just to prove he's God.




Now to the context of the verses quoted..again...Acts.Tongues were needed to speak clearly to people who spoke another language.So God gave the apostles that gift.If a bunch of Chinese Bhuddists broke down in front of your church on a hot July Sunday evening service and came in as a refuge from the heat,and y'all,being filled with the Spirit,started speaking 
Mandarin....That would be1..serving a purpose2..Biblical as at Pentecost...3Totally different than an outburst of gibberish from the pulpit that gets no interpretation,or some lady or man repeating giddy giddy giddy while shouting......

Just as we are not required to handle snakes or drink poison,but God will protect you 'til he need for you is served..We are not to engage in tongues excesively or needlessly so that it becomes a distraction to the service and is also where the caution comes about it being used foolishly.

As far as the gifts go,tongues is considered the least of the spiritual gifts.In churches that practice it,tongues is the most prominently used gift.Prophecy,casting out demons, and healing are used to,but not nearly as much as tongues.On a Sunday night..Men on one side of the altar,women on the other85-90 % of the saints will be speaking in tongues and ecstatic utterances with no practicle purpose.

What happened was many churches experienced the phenomena and then loosely  interpreted varios scriptures to justify it.The earlier quote of "diverse tongues" for instance,or "tongues of angels"....Diverse tongues is used in a portion of scripture speaking of other languages and is used to affirm that,not include nonsense gibberish..

Tongues of angels..That is not required for you to speak to God...You aren't an Angel

There is a verse,I'll quote it on my next post,that says all that will pas away.Also that much of this was given as a sign for people to believe then,now we see through a glass darkly..

With the greatness of God and the faith of our Fathers,nothing further is needed to "prove" God's revelence or existance in our worship today.We are cautioned against it in several places saying not to be a "seeker of signs" or "I have cast out demons and prophesied in your name,and He responded Depart from me you worker of iniquity,I never knew you"

All in all,many churches make many claims....
Some say they don't grow because the devil is fighting them because they are so Holy he is frightened of what they could accomplish.A deeper look reveals a bondage to restrictive standards on outward appearance and loose doctrine to back it up.Those same churches preached against telephones,then computers,and also tv's..Now they mostly accept them all,and may not allow you on the platform if you use them,but won't condemn you for them..

Then there are the churches that grow exponentially..Loose standards,boobs and butt everywhere ,shouting,expensivly dressed preachers preaching on tithing and gifts of the spirit,and miracles every other day or so...Smoking,fine.Drinking,fine.Fat folks,fine(the Bible speaks against gluttony too,but plenty of spirit filled "big Folks "running around condemning others)as long as the money pours in,God is blessing them and they allow whateverAnd the tongues is what determines the fever pitch of their service...

Somewhere,somehow,those gifts are still available.God has a purpose for them.If they aren't being used as God intended,it's wrong and if Paul were still here he would send a strongly worded epistle to some of todays churches....

Greetings...."From Paul,a servant of the Lord..Peace unto you...because you have strayed and focused on the sensational,and left the day to day work of the Lord..Because you have concentrated on the feelings God has put within you more than you have concentrated on the work he has prepared for you...."

Sort of an "ask not what your country can do for you,but what can you do for your country"

I'll quit rambling,but I'll leave you with this.....

Tongues was given as a way or sign to unbelievers that God was real and was reaching them...

Today it has evolved into something different.It has been used as a way to authenticate a persons or churches relationship with God.Edification."I'm so holy I speak in tongues,I must be living right,look what God is doing with/through me,I'm in tune"or "That other church is dry,God isn't moving there"

The tongues movement was never used as a measure of God's favor upon a church.All the gifts are for all believers as needed.Not to be used flagrantly all the time with no purpose.

God's Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost is given/inhabits all believers equally.Each of us are equipped as God sees fit and receives the same measure of it.

God didn't need TBN and Benny Hinn or the "face kicker" in Florida to spread his word and love in the beginning,and doesn't need it now.That's pure sensationalism and it's a pity that people aren't satisfied or believers until they perceive the miraculous.


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## matthewsman (Jul 14, 2008)

*1Corinthians,pay attention to verse 8*

1  Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2  And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, Mt. 17.20 ; 21.21 · Mk. 11.23 and have not charity, I am nothing.

3  And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4  ¶ Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5  doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6  rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7  beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8  ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12  For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13  And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


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## matthewsman (Jul 14, 2008)

*looking at verse 8*

Why now does it seem to be increasing?

Verse 13...we should be abiding in Faith,Hope and Charity...

Instead we have churches still seeking tha miraculous after God has proven himself time and time again...


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## matthewsman (Jul 14, 2008)

*1Timothy 2:8-9*



Doc_Holliday23 said:


> quality control specs on a 1930 A Model?



8   I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

9  In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array


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## matthewsman (Jul 14, 2008)

*Phillipians 4:8*



matthewsman said:


> To what standard do you justify your avatar to?



8  ¶ Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.


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## Spotlite (Jul 14, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> 1.Tongues were needed to speak clearly to people who spoke another language. you is served.
> 
> 2. We are not to engage in tongues excesively or needlessly so that it becomes a distraction to the service and is also where the caution comes about it being used foolishly.
> speaking in tongues and ecstatic utterances with no practicle purpose.
> ...


1. That is not what tongues are used for, waaaay far from what tongues mean. Has nothing to do with talking to other s in their own languages. Also see # 3.

2. I think if I heard someone strand up and say "I have a message to give in tongues", I would be in my car before he got finished, thats not how God nor tongues work, and I agree, its just foolish gibberish when that happens.

3. True, tongues were a sign for the unbeliever, not to speak Russian cause a Russian was in the crowd. 

4. Today it is man that has changed, not God. Tongues original purpose is still the same, just like a Pastor or Teacher, Lord only knows how many have changed those gifts into personal gain. 

5. Tongues are a sign of the infilling of the Holy Ghost and they are a gift of the Spirit, 2 different operations, but I agree, to stand there and gibber all the time is nothing but for attention.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 14, 2008)

good quotes, Matthewsman.  I agree that the person who "speaks in tongues" but does not have love in his heart is not in the will of God.  However, I respectfully disagree with you that tongues is not needed today.  Elsewhere in the bible (1 Cornithians 12 and 14) Paul talks about tongues as edifying you personally and edifying the church as a whole.  He also talks about how tongues are a language for speaking to God that the devil can't understand.  Just because some people misuse this gift of God does not mean that it is not still a gift from God, one that is viable in the church as a means of edifying the believers and reaching the lost.  Some people misuse guns in our society but does that mean thatguns are inherently wrong?  No.  Same with the gifts of the Spirit. 

If you're ever interested in visiting a church where the gifts of the Spirit are active but the people are not "glory seekers" and the Pastor is a spirit filled man who despises the pomp and circumstance and hysteria of the "bless me movement" you should visit my church, its in your neighborhood.  Believer's Fellowship 1855 Christian Circle Conyers, Ga.

You may see and hear people speaking in tongues, you may not.  What you will hear is people worshipping God and a Preacher who is not concerned with growing a big church or building a portfolio.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 14, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> 8   I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
> 
> 9  In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array



braided hair and jewelry... guess we're all going to h***.

seriously, my avatar is not a symbol of lust and it doesn't cause me to lust, it is a sign of being proud of my alma mater.  heck, I even know some of those girls.

however, if it causes you to stumble (or anyone else), I'll change it.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 14, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> 1. That is not what tongues are used for, waaaay far from what tongues mean. Has nothing to do with talking to other s in their own languages. Also see # 3.
> 
> 3. True, tongues were a sign for the unbeliever, not to speak Russian cause a Russian was in the crowd.



Then what happened on to Peter and the disciples on the day of pentecost?


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## rjcruiser (Jul 14, 2008)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> braided hair and jewelry... guess we're all going to h***.



The braided hair thing was describing women not to look like the harlots of the day.  Again, must use context when reading through scripture.  I'm sure you wouldn't find it right for a woman to enter the church looking like a harlot.



			
				Doc_Holliday23 said:
			
		

> however, if it causes you to stumble (or anyone else), I'll change it.



Well, the only cause of stumbling is that I think it would be a finer automobile if it was painted red & black.  That and I wish I had a car like that.


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## matthewsman (Jul 14, 2008)

*Don't change it for me...*



Doc_Holliday23 said:


> braided hair and jewelry... guess we're all going to h***.
> 
> seriously, my avatar is not a symbol of lust and it doesn't cause me to lust, it is a sign of being proud of my alma mater.  heck, I even know some of those girls.
> 
> however, if it causes you to stumble (or anyone else), I'll change it.



Regretfully I've seen much worse and as our preacher says"you never get away from it and the images pop into your mind at the most inopertune times..."

I was just poking at you,I know a little about standards and you had brought up the 100% deal


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## matthewsman (Jul 14, 2008)

*That's right*



rjcruiser said:


> Then what happened on to Peter and the disciples on the day of pentecost?



It's exactly what tongues mean and was one of the great miracles in my opinion.

Tongues is hardly ever,if ever, used that way now.

The way it is used currently in churches is the very way Paul warned against in his epistle...


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## matthewsman (Jul 14, 2008)

*cool*



Doc_Holliday23 said:


> If you're ever interested in visiting a church where the gifts of the Spirit are active but the people are not "glory seekers" and the Pastor is a spirit filled man who despises the pomp and circumstance and hysteria of the "bless me movement" you should visit my church, its in your neighborhood.  Believer's Fellowship 1855 Christian Circle Conyers, Ga.



Sounds like a good church.I'm more familiar with the UPC and it's adherants that aren't UPC as opposed to COG or other typicly classified as "Charismatic"(I don't say that to be derogatory)That is where the bulk of my experience with full gospel comes from.While I have seen some things that were hard to believe or provide an answer for other than supernatural,I'm not convinced all that I saw was "of God"Which is disturbing,because if it wasn't flesh,or of God,we know where it came from...Demons cast out of previous "saints" etc...They had backslid,been possesed,excorsized and made whole again...Either God is able and faithful to keep you or He ain't.I believe He is


Although I've seen it,I remain sceptical of the tongues movement today being the same as the Bible.

If you want a mindblowing experience try being the only person determined to be without the Holy Ghost in a shouting service at a UPC churchThey will try to pray you through,drag you through,or beat the HolyGhost into you...


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## toddboucher (Jul 14, 2008)

Not planning on saying much because many will say im judging, but wouldn't a true work of the Spirit begin on the inside and come out as his fruit. instead of all these fleshly outword things like speaking where no can can tell if its God or YOU. If the Spirit truely comes apon you to the point you are changed and now the fruit is seen by all, that can't be made up.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 14, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> Sounds like a good church.I'm more familiar with the UPC and it's adherants that aren't UPC as opposed to COG or other typicly classified as "Charismatic"(I don't say that to be derogatory)That is where the bulk of my experience with full gospel comes from.While I have seen some things that were hard to believe or provide an answer for other than supernatural,I'm not convinced all that I saw was "of God"Which is disturbing,because if it wasn't flesh,or of God,we know where it came from...Demons cast out of previous "saints" etc...They had backslid,been possesed,excorsized and made whole again...Either God is able and faithful to keep you or He ain't.I believe He is
> 
> 
> Although I've seen it,I remain sceptical of the tongues movement today being the same as the Bible.
> ...



well I've seen some people "get in the flesh" as well.  However, the good Pastors that I know who are filled with the discernment of the Holy Spirit know when and how to shut it down, whether it be calling that person out publicly or discretely.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 14, 2008)

toddboucher said:


> Not planning on saying much because many will say im judging, but wouldn't a true work of the Spirit begin on the inside and come out as his fruit. instead of all these fleshly outword things like speaking where no can can tell if its God or YOU. If the Spirit truely comes apon you to the point you are changed and now the fruit is seen by all, that can't be made up.



well the fruit of the Spirit is Love, Joy, peace, patience, kindness, Goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and Self-control.  (That's the NIV for you KJV-only folks.) 

However, those fruits are entirely different from the works of the Spirit.


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## Spotlite (Jul 14, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Then what happened on to Peter and the disciples on the day of pentecost?



Tongues came when the Holy Ghost did, just like many others have been telling you. To think these folks were just standing around talking to others in their own languages that happened to come by is foolish, scripture plainly tells you that they were all in one mind and one accord and they spoke in tongues as God gave the utterance. The crowd listening was far from their mind. Read the rest of Acts. Tongues are a sign of the infilling of the Holy Ghost, and its a spiritual gift that works in a whole seperate operation, accept it or not but dont dumb it down.

Yall think cause someone speaks in tongues and you dont understand it that they are faking it cause its not interpreted, maybe its not tongues and interpretation, maybe its them being filled with the Holy Ghost and they just might be speaking Indian, Chinese or what ever, and an Indian or Chinese might just walk by like on the day of Pentecost. Just cause you dont understand it dont make it not real. Remember, tongues at the infilling of the Holy Ghost are a sign of the infilling of the Holy Ghost.


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## matthewsman (Jul 15, 2008)

*Don't be rude,noone is dumbing it down.*



Spotlite said:


> Tongues came when the Holy Ghost did, just like many others have been telling you. To think these folks were just standing around talking to others in their own languages that happened to come by is foolish, scripture plainly tells you that they were all in one mind and one accord and they spoke in tongues as God gave the utterance. The crowd listening was far from their mind. Read the rest of Acts. Tongues are a sign of the infilling of the Holy Ghost, and its a spiritual gift that works in a whole seperate operation, accept it or not but dont dumb it down.
> 
> Yall think cause someone speaks in tongues and you dont understand it that they are faking it cause its not interpreted, maybe its not tongues and interpretation, maybe its them being filled with the Holy Ghost and they just might be speaking Indian, Chinese or what ever, and an Indian or Chinese might just walk by like on the day of Pentecost. Just cause you dont understand it dont make it not real. Remember, tongues at the infilling of the Holy Ghost are a sign of the infilling of the Holy Ghost.



1  And when the day of Pentecost  was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5   And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6  Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7  And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galileans?

8  And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9  Par'thi-ans, and Medes, and E'lamites, and the dwellers in Mesopota'mi-a, and in Judea, and Cappado'cia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10  Phryg'i-a, and Pamphyl'i-a, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyre'ne, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11  Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12  And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

13  Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.


Verses 2 and 3 accompanied the tongues at the day of pentecost.I have seen many people speak  in tongues with no flame and no noise other than the organs,drums,and tambourines..The rushing mighty wind and tongues of fire are non existent.With all the video and tv churches someone would have captured that on film.

Verses 6,7,and8 clearly state that they heard in their own language.It then goes on to list seperately many of the nations in attendance.

Verse 6 leads a person to believe that thi wasn't a 30 minute shouting session at the end of a spiritfilled night of worship,but something that went on for some time.It says as it was noised about..That means talked about and spread by word of mouth...No mass e-mail or breaking news,just neighbor to neighbor..Then a multitude gathered..No mass transit,cabs etc..This took some time.

No one is dumbing it down,but there was a time,purpose,and a reason for it when it happened there.There were things that happened there that DO NOT happen in the modern day tongues movement.


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## Spotlite (Jul 15, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> 3  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
> 
> 4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
> 
> ...




Dumbing something down is when you water it down or write it off cause you dont understand it to the point it means nothing.

You actually think you can see fire coming from someones mouth? Thats just an expression to describe it. 

You have never been in a Church service where the Spirit of God moved and more than 1 person was shouting or involved in the moving of the Spirit? Thats like a rushing wind. 

I have no problem with you not believing it, at least you cant say you never knew


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## matthewsman (Jul 15, 2008)

*The Bible says*



Spotlite said:


> You actually think you can see fire coming from someones mouth? Thats just an expression to describe it.


3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

The Bible says it appeared to them..They SAW it...Not just an expression.

It says it sat upon each of them,not came out of their mouth...That's what the Bible saysall you want brother,but that's what the book says.

I don't doubt at all it happens,I've seen it,but it doesn't happen now as it did in the Bible.


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## Spotlite (Jul 15, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> 3 And there appeared *unto them cloven tongues like as of fire*, and it sat upon each of them.
> 
> The Bible says it appeared to them..They SAW it...Not just an expression.
> 
> ...



Agree, thats what it says, ("LIKE" as of fire) did not say actual fire, it was describing something, again, an expression.

Youve seen it, but it doesnt happen, at least not like it did in the Bible

Its not God that has changed.................



Either way, you owe me no explanation, it was mocked then also, see vs 13


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## huberbanjopicker (Jul 15, 2008)

The bible says that it is not hooey....and it can be done.....as long as your filled with the spirit and theres a interpretor, then there nothing wrong with it and yes it is REAL!


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## rjcruiser (Jul 15, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> Agree, thats what it says, ("LIKE" as of fire) did not say actual fire, it was describing something, again, an expression.



Spotlite,
I think you are mistaken.  The text doesn't say it was actual fire, but something that was like fire...something that was tangible and visible, but never seen before and therefore described as something that had been seen before...fire.  

You say above, it was describing something....if it was describing something it was not just an expression.


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## Spotlite (Jul 15, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Spotlite,
> I think you are mistaken.  The text doesn't say it was actual fire,





Spotlite said:


> Agree, thats what it says, ("LIKE" as of fire) did not say actual fire



OK I never said it was referring to actual fire.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 15, 2008)

What I'm trying to say is it isn't an expression.  Based on the text, the disciples/apostles on the day of pentecost had something that looked like fire hovering above them.

Does that happen today?


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 15, 2008)

I know people that have visually seen the actual presence of God, in one way or the other.  Some say it was as fire, some say it was like a cloud.  My dad, a Pentecostal preacher, has seen it and says the best way he can describe it was like the mirage that you see over the asphalt on a hot August day.  He used the term "boiling."

I believe him because I think God is the same today as he was then and for reasons already posted in this thread I believe he has made the same gifts available to us as he did then.


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## Spotlite (Jul 15, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> What I'm trying to say is it isn't an expression.  Based on the text, the disciples/apostles on the day of pentecost had something that looked like fire hovering above them.
> 
> Does that happen today?



if you want to get "technical", its not even describing fire itself as a visual, 

"and there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them"

Have you ever watched a hay field burn? Ever seen fire how it just sweeps across it? Hmmmmm..................


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## rjcruiser (Jul 15, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> Have you ever watched a hay field burn? Ever seen fire how it just sweeps across it? Hmmmmm..................



Nope...but my daddy did  I don't think the field was the only thing that was black after my granddaddy got through with him either 

What you explain....I've never seen this in a church today...never seen it when people start uttering things I can't understand...never seen it when people are rolling around on the floor...never seen it when people are praying.  Not saying since I've never seen it, it doesn't happen, but even you said that you don't see things like this when your church starts speaking in tongues.  If it is the same gift, the same God, why wouldn't the appearances be the same as well?


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## Dunamis (Jul 15, 2008)

_-“Now to the context of the verses quoted..again...Acts.Tongues were needed to speak clearly to people who spoke another language.So God gave the apostles that gift.”_

Correct. However, you are incorrect the think that God restricted the use of tongues to be used solely by the Apostles. This particular “facet” of the gift of tongues is still in use today. This “facet” of the gift of tongues is predominantly manifested in underprivileged countries, where people have their faith in God and little else. There nothing in the word that supports this point of view.

_-“We are not to engage in tongues excesively or needlessly so that it becomes a distraction to the service and is also where the caution comes about it being used foolishly.”_

So who is wise enough to be able to decide when tongues are being used excessively, needlessly, or foolishly? 

1 Cor 14:32 ; “And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.”

Just as with any other gift, ignorance in the operation of the gift can cause the gift to be misused. Not misused to be malicious, but out of being uneducated concerning that gift. Time has to be taken to develop the gift to learn how to flow in and the appropriate use of our gifts.

_-“Men on one side of the altar,women on the other85-90 % of the saints will be speaking in tongues and ecstatic utterances with no practicle purpose.”_

The only way someone can come to this conclusion is for the individual to think of “tongues” and a single gift with a single operation/facet. If this school of thought is accurate, the above statement is correct. Sadly, people are misled into thinking this same thought. The truth of the matter is that the gift of “tongues” IS a single gift, but it has MANY operations/facets.

1 Cor 14:2 – “For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.”

Herein is the purpose you speak of. The “unknown tongue” is the personal prayer language facet/operation of the gift of diverse tongues.

1 Cor 14:5 –“I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.”

Why is this? So that not only does the individual get edified, but the church be edified as well. The tail end of this verse begins to allude to the prophetic facet/operation of the gift of diverse tongues, hence the reference to the interpretation.

_-“Diverse tongues is used in a portion of scripture speaking of other languages and is used to affirm that,not include nonsense gibberish”_

My quote concerning “diverse tongues” come from a portion of scripture that is singularly speaking of spiritual gifts, not speaking in other lanuages (of men). The “nonsense gibberish” you speak of is another facet/operation of the gift of diverse tongues. This facet is considered a prayer language, not to be confused with the prophetic facet of “tongues” that requires an interpretation.


_-“Tongues of angels..That is not required for you to speak to God...You aren't an Angel” _

Neither is tongues (prayer language) required to talk to God. You can communicate just fine while praying with understanding, but if God will provide you a way to pray more in tune with His will, minus the discrepancies of human nature, I’m game. And you are right we are not angels. 

_-“There is a verse,I'll quote it on my next post,that says all that will pas away.Also that much of this was given as a sign for people to believe then,now we see through a glass darkly..”_

The only text I can think of, off hand, that speaks of things passing away is the scripture that says that heaven and earth will pass away but His word will stand.


_-“nothing further is needed to "prove" God's revelence or existance in our worship today”_

You’re right! God doesn’t need to be proven by anyone, but why are people so quick to reject the gifts of the spirit but receive without question the gift from God of salvation?


Understand that I reserve the right to be incorrect and I do not now everything.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 15, 2008)

Dunamis said:


> _
> 
> -“There is a verse,I'll quote it on my next post,that says all that will pas away.Also that much of this was given as a sign for people to believe then,now we see through a glass darkly..”
> 
> ...


_




			1 Corinthians 13 

8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 

 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 

 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 

 11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 

 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
		
Click to expand...


Once again, I think its pretty obvious that this passage means that the gifts of the spirit are nowhere near as important as the fruits of the spirit.  Verse 1 says "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. "  Love is vastly more important than the gift of tongues... in fact Jesus says it is the greatest commandment.  However, that, in no way, means that the gift of tongues is not valid.

Its saying that when we get to heaven we will not need tongues because we will see God face-to-face and there will be no need for any veiled communication with him.  We will be able to speak directly to him in the "flesh."_


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## Spotlite (Jul 15, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Nope...but my daddy did  I don't think the field was the only thing that was black after my granddaddy got through with him either
> 
> What you explain....I've never seen this in a church today...never seen it when people start uttering things I can't understand...never seen it when people are rolling around on the floor...never seen it when people are praying.  Not saying since I've never seen it, it doesn't happen, but even you said that you don't see things like this when your church starts speaking in tongues.  If it is the same gift, the same God, why wouldn't the appearances be the same as well?



Cause your looking for a fire. In todays terms I might say it came as a rushing wind and  set upon them like tornado....and in 100 years someone will say it don't happen the way it used to cause they didn't see a tornado. One other thing, having the Spirit of God move across a congregation does not mean folks are rolling and uttering.


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## Dunamis (Jul 15, 2008)

Thanks for eductain me, Doc. Never too old to learn something new


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## Tim L (Jul 15, 2008)

Dunamis said:


> _-“Now to the context of the verses quoted..again...Acts.Tongues were needed to speak clearly to people who spoke another language.So God gave the apostles that gift.”_
> 
> Correct. However, you are incorrect the think that God restricted the use of tongues to be used solely by the Apostles. This particular “facet” of the gift of tongues is still in use today. This “facet” of the gift of tongues is predominantly manifested in underprivileged countries, where people have their faith in God and little else. There nothing in the word that supports this point of view.
> 
> ...




Do you know of any instances today where someone preached to people of another language and those people heard it in their native lanquage?  Example, say someone that only knows English and people that only knew, say Polish, could understand them?


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## Dunamis (Jul 15, 2008)

Rouster said:


> Do you know of any instances today where someone preached to people of another language and those people heard it in their native lanquage?  Example, say someone that only knows English and people that only knew, say Polish, could understand them?



I have not personally experienced the "tongues of men" manifestation. My spiritual father operates in the office of a prophet and networks with other apostles and prophets in different ministry ventures. 

I've sat and listened to them talk about the things they've  experienced during their ministries. They mentioned things like this taking place. While I don't expect you guys to fully accept it based on what I've heard:however;it is good enough for me.


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## matthewsman (Jul 16, 2008)

*likewise*



Doc_Holliday23 said:


> I know people that have visually seen the actual presence of God, in one way or the other.  Some say it was as fire, some say it was like a cloud.  My dad, a Pentecostal preacher, has seen it and says the best way he can describe it was like the mirage that you see over the asphalt on a hot August day.  He used the term "boiling."
> 
> I believe him because I think God is the same today as he was then and for reasons already posted in this thread I believe he has made the same gifts available to us as he did then.



My spelling may be wrong,but phoneticly..The Shekana Glory of God..I've heard from older folks,but never seen myself, that in tent meetings in the past that fire trucks actually showed up because it looked like the roof of the tent was burning.


I don't want anyone to misunderstand what I'm saying,or believe.I don't limit God.I KNOW He can do as He pleases and what He will.He will heal,He will bestow various gifts on believers for different purposes.But,he doesn't do anything just for kicks...There is a reason or purpose for each gift and it will be timely.

I do believe the modern day tongues movement is more similar to the one at the church of Corinth to whom the epistle was worded.

Dunamis,Spotlite..I knew your arguments before you presented them..Spotlite,I don't mock God,get rid of your concentration on tongues and ask for discernment,then you would know thatYou're telling me that the tongues of fire and the rushing mighty wind are as close to explaining figurativly as the writer of Acts could get.I'm telling you,that doesn't happen today,or anything close to it..That's not mocking God,if it happened today as it did at Pentecost wonderful.If it's not Biblical,those involved may be mocking God.
Seriously.....Your reference to "at least you can't say you don't know" is meant to imply that the fullness of the Truth has been offered to me and I have denied it..Not so in my case.The "Truth" you are presenting,doesn't measure up to what I have come to understand studying the Word.


Dunamis,before you posted what your spiritual father had taught you,I knew how the case for tongues would be presented.I included it in my first post.All I can tell you is..rather than take at face value what you see and are taught,get in the Word yourself.

When you start seeking after the"Holy Ghost" as taught by some adherrants here you will here many things to get you to speak in tongues.While few will admit to it,they believe that being filled with the Holy Ghost is most often,if not always evidenced by speaking in tongues.

You will be told to just claim it,it is a gift from God.You will be told to petition God at the throne of Grace,you have to refuse to leave without it,it's your birthright.

You will be told not to beg God for it,it's a gift.

You will stand at an altar after fasting 3 days or more,arms lifted to exaustion,praying aloud 'til you can't speak properly anymore,then have someone tell you.."That's it!That's It,you're almost there" almost like a vision quest...

Been there done all that....It's not Biblical the way it is presented in the majority of todays churches.

I promise I don't say any of this to be argumentative,but only through the love of God and to encourage you to really test the spirits when you run accross it that you not be deceived and led astray by a counterfeit...


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## Spotlite (Jul 16, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> 1.  Spotlite,I don't mock God,get rid of your concentration on tongues and ask for discernment,then you would know thatYou're telling me that the tongues of fire and the rushing mighty wind are as close to explaining figurativly as the writer of Acts could get.I'm telling you,that doesn't happen today,or anything close to it..
> 
> The "Truth" you are presenting,doesn't measure up to what I have come to understand studying the Word.



You know, this is like telling a cat that kitty litter does not exist, I will leave it at that.

And, the rest is just your opinion only. I don`t really find anything that says it has to measure up to your understanding for it to be true. Maybe your understanding needs some attention


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## rjcruiser (Jul 16, 2008)

I found a series of articles that I think explain both my position and several others' position on the subject of Tongues and other Spiritual Gifts.  Found here http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/29/a-true-work-of-the-spirit-part-1/

I'll sumarize to keep it in the forum, but it originally comes from Jonathan Edwards and his study of 1 John 4.  A true work of the Holy Spirit does 5 things

1.Exalts the true Christ  --"By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” (John 4:2-3) 

2. Opposes Satan's interests - “You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.” (1 John 4:4-5)

3. Points people to the Scriptures - “We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.” (1 John 4:6)

4. Elevates Truth - “We know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error” (I John 4:6).

5. Results in love for God and others. - "The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love” (I John 4:8).




So, do the tongues of today do these 5 things above?  I would venture to say no.  When someone is in a church saying things that can't be understood, it doesn't point people to scripture and to God.  It points people to this individual.

Does it elevate the truth?  No...again, because no one can understand it.


Now, Dunamis, based upon your discussion with your spiritual father, if somehow they were witnessing to hundres or thousands of chinese people and their english to mandarin interpretor was struck dead or not there, and the preacher was speaking english and the people heard him in Mandarin, I would venture to say that this is a valid use of tongues.  Do I believe that this really occurred...well

However, this is not what the majority of people in this post are talking about.  They are defending something that is occurring in an english speaking church where everyone speaks english.  This is not the tongues that are spoke of in Acts and this is not the tongues of the Bible.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 16, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> And, the rest is just your opinion only. I don`t really find anything that says it has to measure up to your understanding for it to be true. Maybe your understanding needs some attention



Spotlite,
It is called "Discernment" and it is a gift of the Holy Spirit.  It is also something that God commended in Acts of the Bereans...

Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. 

Also, I Thess 5:21-22 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil.

It is foolishness to think that we don't need to examine the scriptures and test things to ensure they are from the Lord.


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## Spotlite (Jul 16, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Spotlite,
> It is called "Discernment"


If your referring to the quote below, then no, its opinion. An opinion based on experiences seen or heard taught wrong by "some". Thats also called stereotyping, Im quiet sure every denomination has been a victim of that due to "some".   I did not say I did not agree with him on alot of this, except for the declaration he made that it does not happen Biblically.


matthewsman said:


> The "Truth" you are presenting,doesn't measure up to what I have.......
> 
> When you start seeking after the"Holy Ghost" as taught by some adherrants here you will here many things to get you to speak in tongues.
> 
> ...


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## matthewsman (Jul 16, 2008)

*Good allegory*



Spotlite said:


> You know, this is like telling a cat that kitty litter does not exist, I will leave it at that.



But it's more like the cat doing his business in a sandbox instead of a litter box...

It serves the purpose for him,and he can tell no difference,but everyone else sees the difference and the mess that's created..


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## Spotlite (Jul 16, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> But it's more like the cat doing his business in a sandbox instead of a litter box...
> 
> It serves the purpose for him,and he can tell no difference,but everyone else sees the difference and the mess that's created..



True, if your a cat that thinks doing your business is a thing of the past................


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 16, 2008)

Rouster said:


> Do you know of any instances today where someone preached to people of another language and those people heard it in their native lanquage?  Example, say someone that only knows English and people that only knew, say Polish, could understand them?



I personally do know at least one person that this has happened to.  Dr. Mark Rutland, President of Southeastern University in Lakeland, Fl.  he is a personal friend of my family for 20+ years.


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## matthewsman (Jul 16, 2008)

*Now that's the real deal.*



Doc_Holliday23 said:


> I personally do know at least one person that this has happened to.  Dr. Mark Rutland, President of Southeastern University in Lakeland, Fl.  he is a personal friend of my family for 20+ years.



That's the real deal..Give us the story...


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## matthewsman (Jul 16, 2008)

*Be argumentative all you like.*



Spotlite said:


> True, if your a cat that thinks doing your business is a thing of the past................



I know you are justifying what you've experienced.I told you before that I've seen it.I don't deny it.So I'd apreciate if you'd quit being silly about it,but do as you will....

All I'm saying is with very few exceptions,like maybe the case Doc mentioned,it's a counterfeit.


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## deerjake (Jul 16, 2008)

JohnK3 said:


> If you don't speak in tongues you're not saved?
> 
> WHEW!  My dad finally got saved, then.  When he had his stroke, he was in church and just all of the sudden sat down and started "speaking in tongues."  (Stroke affected the speech centers.)  At least, that's how the pastor described it.  [grin]


If you don't speak in tongues you're not saved? 

Speaking in tongues doen't save you.  Jesus said all you have to do to be saved is repent and except me ask me into your heart as your lord and savior.


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## Spotlite (Jul 16, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> I know you are justifying what you've experienced.I told you before that I've seen it.I don't deny it.So I'd apreciate if you'd quit being silly about it,but do as you will....
> 
> All I'm saying is with very few exceptions,like maybe the case Doc mentioned,it's a counterfeit.


My experience needs no justification, no where did I ever say anything about my experience. Im just making a point that "YOU" cant declare it does not happen like it did then. What makes you so worthy to declare such a statement? And to top it off, after you have decided it does not happen, you think in a few cases it does happen. Not being silly at all. You have some good points, but your wishy washy. Carry on. Ive made my point. 


matthewsman said:


> I don't doubt at all it happens,I've seen it,but it doesn't happen now as it did in the Bible.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 16, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> That's the real deal..Give us the story...



I've already relayed the story somewhere here in the thread.  You're right, that is the real deal.  And so is when myself, my Dad, my Mom, my sister, or countless other people I know speak in tongues, whether it is a message in tongues intended for interpretation to edify the church or praying in tongues as a personal prayer language to God.

Some people abuse it, but not everyone.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 16, 2008)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> the real deal.  And so is when myself, my Dad, my Mom, my sister, or countless other people I know speak in tongues, whether it is a message in tongues intended for interpretation to edify the church or praying in tongues as a personal prayer language to God.



Definitely not the real deal...not the same as what is in the NT.  See post #144 above for reasons why.


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## Spotlite (Jul 16, 2008)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> And so is when myself, my Dad, my Mom, my sister, or countless other people I know speak in tongues, whether it is a message in tongues intended for interpretation to edify the church or praying in tongues as a personal prayer language to God.
> 
> Some people abuse it, but not everyone.


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## Spotlite (Jul 16, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Definitely not the real deal...not the same as what is in the NT.  See post #144 above for reasons why.



Read 1 Corinthians 14 vs 2. Its been said many times, there are two types of tongues, one for prophecy that edifies the Church and one for just the person praying to God that no others understand. So dont be alarmed if you hear someone praying and you cant understand them and no one interprets it, its probably not prophecy, just them praying.


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## Spotlite (Jul 16, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> If it was the real deal then why doesn't it happen in all churches? Seems to me that it only happens in a handful of churches. Are those churches the true church?
> 
> DW



#1 reason is unbelief. And thats not downing any church, its just logical to think if you dont preach it, teach it nor believe in it, how can you expect it?

The debate of true church is a debate I for one will refuse to get in.


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## jkdodge (Jul 16, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> If it was the real deal then why doesn't it happen in all churches? Seems to me that it only happens in a handful of churches. Are those churches the true church?
> 
> DW



Dick not to be rude or anything but Ive been in alot of dead churches before I found the one Im at now. Why dosent it happen?  Well alot of religions dont beleive in it same thing that is happening here in this form. Some do some dont. I personally do and I also Speak in Tongues. I dont shove it down anyones throat Its just what I beleive in. One day we will all know what God says about it. Untill then I would say this. I would be very carefull to judge folks that do beleive in it. What if you are wrong.What if I am wrong. That is for god to tell me not others. I know this it is very personal to me. I refuse to argue with anyone on this subject. My Grandfather who passed away in Jan. was a preacher for almost 39 years. One of the best men I ever knew. Never a cuss word or a fowl word out of his mouth. He did not beleive in speaking in Tongues but he also did not bash me for doing it either. One thing I dont understand is how come all the different (religions) and let me remind all that is reading this Religion will not get you to heaven...that dont beleive in it  are the first to condem it. Are you a man without sin? and not meaning you in general Mr Winters I mean all. I would love for some of you non beleivers to visit my church and experience the Holy Spirt show up in a service and tell me its fake. I too once was suspecious of it and admit that Pentecostal churches as well as Baptist attract the fake folks but show me a religioin that dosent? I know one thing I would hate to be judged by god for condemning something that is Bibically  right.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jul 16, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> My spelling may be wrong,but phoneticly..The Shekana Glory of God..



Shekhinah... Hebrew for describing where God dwells, His presence, as in the Temple.

Interesting thread... one even I would never have attempted to debate with you on (especially since I happen to agree with you on your views of tongues today)... this was always your strong point


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## Spotlite (Jul 16, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> OR...another school of thought is that it is baloney.
> 
> Honestly, I fall into the second school of thought. I think it is a  n Appalachianesque belief akin to snake handling.
> 
> ...



Acts 2, probably not the USA either.

Baloney is a thought, so is mockery.


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## Spotlite (Jul 16, 2008)

I guess David never danced or had fire shut up in his bones either huh? It might have started here in the 19th century, but thats not when it started (thats another reason I say the earth is not millons of years old, but thats another debate) Speaking in tongues has nothing to do with dancing a jig, or jumping a pew, be pretty dang hard to scream and speak in tongues at the same time also. So what, you dont believe it, OK.

Anyways, theres 163 post to filter through and beat the dead horse with, good luck!

(I think another troll is coming to life)


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## Dixie Dawg (Jul 16, 2008)

I'm not interested in debating here, just thought I'd share a personal experience related to this topic. I always enjoyed going to these type of churches because I loved the music they played and it really made me be able to 'feel' what I thought was the presence of the holy spirit.  But on the same token, it became a lot of 'peer pressure' to be 'filled' with the spirit and show that by the manifestation of tongues.  I can remember doubting my own salvation, what must be wrong with me if I wasn't receiving that gift and everyone else around me seemed to have it?  I remember being surrounded by members of the congregation, all of them with their hands on me, praying 'in tongues' and just going on and on about how all I had to do was just 'let it out'.  Finally, I started talking jibberish just so they would move on to the next person.  I knew what I had said was definitely nothing to do with tongues, it was nothing at all, but they all rejoiced at the idea that I had been finally given the gift.  And unfortunately the whole experience left a bad taste (no pun intended) for the topic of 'tongues' and spirit filled churches in general.  I would probably feel better about it if I just thought it was me, but unfortunately even when I watch tele-evangelists like Rod Parsley, I can't help but think, what a fake.    Of course, I could be wrong, maybe he's an exception, but I don't really think so.  I'm sure HE thinks he is doing something biblical, but honestly to me it takes away from his credibility.

Like I said, not to debate anyone, just sharing my own experience/opinion.  I think there is a lot of the peer-pressure thing going on in some of those churches today. Nobody wants to be the only one not blessed with the 'gift'.


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## Spotlite (Jul 16, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I'm not interested in debating here, just thought I'd share a personal experience related to this topic. I always enjoyed going to these type of churches because I loved the music they played and it really made me be able to 'feel' what I thought was the presence of the holy spirit.  But on the same token, it became a lot of 'peer pressure' to be 'filled' with the spirit and show that by the manifestation of tongues.  I can remember doubting my own salvation, what must be wrong with me if I wasn't receiving that gift and everyone else around me seemed to have it?  I remember being surrounded by members of the congregation, all of them with their hands on me, praying 'in tongues' and just going on and on about how all I had to do was just 'let it out'.  Finally, I started talking jibberish just so they would move on to the next person.  I knew what I had said was definitely nothing to do with tongues, it was nothing at all, but they all rejoiced at the idea that I had been finally given the gift.  And unfortunately the whole experience left a bad taste (no pun intended) for the topic of 'tongues' and spirit filled churches in general.  I would probably feel better about it if I just thought it was me, but unfortunately even when I watch tele-evangelists like Rod Parsley, I can't help but think, what a fake.    Of course, I could be wrong, maybe he's an exception, but I don't really think so.  I'm sure HE thinks he is doing something biblical, but honestly to me it takes away from his credibility.
> 
> Like I said, not to debate anyone, just sharing my own experience/opinion.  I think there is a lot of the peer-pressure thing going on in some of those churches today. Nobody wants to be the only one not blessed with the 'gift'.



DD, theres tons of fakes out there in every denomination.


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## Spotlite (Jul 16, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Is that it? If I don't think the way you do I'm a troll? C'mon! It's not like that at all. I'm not your average Christian. I've seen and experienced almost every denomination. Grandfather was Jewish, Mom's Catholic, Dad's Baptist and in the Army there are services of all kinds but never at the same time because in the little bases where I have done my work there is only one chapel and one chaplain and sometimes he was Catholic, sometimes Protestant, sometimes Jewish. You just went to service and sometimes you didn't know what kind it would be. You just had to roll with it. I have to say I have enjoyed them all to some degree.
> 
> There...not a troll, just a dumb ol' soldier with a little time on his hands.
> 
> DW



first and foremost, my hats off to you for your soldier duties, I appreciate what you do for my freedom

OK, I will take the troll comment back

I just dont like seeing people degrade something they dont believe in. If you dont believe it, thats fine, but that does not make it baloney or fake or non existant. I cant prove to you it is and you cant prove to me it isnt, fair enough?


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 16, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Definitely not the real deal...not the same as what is in the NT.  See post #144 above for reasons why.



who are you to judge?

In my experience, speaking in tongues meets all 5 of your criteria.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 17, 2008)

DixieDawg, I encourage you not to dismiss something just because you had bad experiences with some fallible humans.

It seems everyone's arguments here are that they have had experiences with people (human beings, sinful creatures) that led them to believe that tongues was not real, beit televangelists, pushy layers-on-of-hands, people rolling in the aisles, etc.  If that is the case I encourage you to not look on what Man does, because we all know man is fallible, we all sin, we are highly imperfect, and I'm certain that many people deal with tongues and the entire charismatic movement flippantly and with great error.  As a pentecostal, nothing makes me more sick and angry than people who are pushy or disruptive and "blame" the Holy Spirit for it.  A discerning spirit can tell whats real and what's not.  God is not the Father of confusion and chances are if you were confused, put off, scared, or whatever, than it might have been someone acting in the flesh.  Once again, though, people messing up has nothing to do with whether or not there is a real gift of tongues.  Do not put your faith in man, for he will disappoint you everytime.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 17, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> I did a little research and it seems it is a phenomena that occured first in the 19th century right here in the good ol' US of A. I figured as much.
> 
> If this was a true gift then why leave it locked up tight for 1900 years?
> 
> ...


The History of the Christian Church, by Philip Schaff records that speaking in tongues occurred among the Camisards, the Cevennes in France, among the early Quakers and Methodists in the Irish revival of 1859, and among the Irvingites in 1831. The Encyclopedia Britannica states that glossolalia (speaking in tongues) has recurred in Christian revivals of every age — among the mendicant friars of the thirteenth century, among the Jasenists and early Quakers, the persecuted Protestants of the Cevennes, and the Irvingites.  All of this is before any tongues movement in America.

Is it strange that it wasn't as widespread from 200AD to 1900AD?  Perhaps, there are some reasons for that possibility...  one has to do with the Catholic church being the major, if not only, Christian "denomination" if you will.  Obviously, the Catholic church does not practice tongues.  Its likely that anyone who did have the revelation of tongues who was in the Catholic church did not speak or write about it in fear of being branded a heretic.  Even after the Protestant Reformation of 1517, the major Christian sects were very liturgical and rites-oriented.  The Bible was still not read by the common man.

I can only have faith that God knows what he is doing and in his own time he chooses when to pour out his spirit.  I think that is why there have been bursts of more concentrated tongues throughout history.  I happen to think that he is pouring out his spirit today because we are in the last days of the Earth.


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## matthewsman (Jul 17, 2008)

*something interesting to me...*

The Mormons spoke in tongues in the 18th century..Nobody but me has heard of the Asuza street store front church and the advent of the modern day tongues movement?Where are my one God Apostolic Jesus name only brothers?I know y'all are well versed in this....

Now.........Spotlite....You and I think a lot alike on many things spiritually,tongues just ain't one of them.I promise,I don't waiver.What I've personally seen bears no resemblance to what was spoken of in the Bible.That's it in a nutshell to me.

But...You brought up David...A man after God's own heart,but he didn't have the Holy Ghost like it was given the Apostles..David was worshipping  in the flesh....Nothing wrong with that,but it was in the flesh.Just like a crowd at a ball game or calfroping...


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## rjcruiser (Jul 17, 2008)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> who are you to judge?



I'm using the Bible as my resource, not someone else's thoughts or opinions or personal experiences, to discern truth from error.

Another issue with tongues and the charismatic movement is that it places so much on experience and emotions.  You have to "experience" God.  What is that mean?  If I'm truly in love with God, I'm going to get all emotional and start talking jibberish and experience a different level of Christianity?

Emotions aren't evil, but many times, they can cloud discernment.


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## Spotlite (Jul 17, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> The Mormons spoke in tongues in the 18th century..Nobody but me has heard of the Asuza street store front church and the advent of the modern day tongues movement?Where are my one God Apostolic Jesus name only brothers?I know y'all are well versed in this....
> 
> Now.........Spotlite....You and I think a lot alike on many things spiritually,tongues just ain't one of them.I promise,I don't waiver.What I've personally seen bears no resemblance to what was spoken of in the Bible.That's it in a nutshell to me.
> 
> But...You brought up David...A man after God's own heart,but he didn't have the Holy Ghost like it was given the Apostles..David was worshipping  in the flesh....Nothing wrong with that,but it was in the flesh.Just like a crowd at a ball game or calfroping...


I have heard of Asuzu Street, but like I said, just because thats the first recording on USA soil does not mean thats where it started. I dont think any denomination agrees with what the internet says when looking up their history, at least not 100%. 

I guess my point is if you look up Hurricane history, it shows Galveston 1900, can we safely say that that was the first hurricane? Or safer to say, thats the first recording we know of on USA soil? 

I have no idea what you`ve seen personally, so I cant argue with you on that, what you`ve seen, just might have been fake. I personally have seen the real and the fake so I know the fakers are out there just as well as you do. But that in no way means all of it is fake and it does not mean all of it is real. 

I dont have any issues with you either personally, were good on that end, might not agree on certain subjects, but I enjoy debating with you


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## crackerdave (Jul 17, 2008)

I agree - speaking in tongues is like pro wrasslin' - a lot of it's fake! I personally don't see where it edifies the church,fake or not.


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## toddboucher (Jul 17, 2008)

jkdodge said:


> Dick not to be rude or anything but Ive been in alot of dead churches .



I thought you were mr. do not Judge

What you call dead:  I might call alive, what you call alive Im sure I would call Emotionalism. 

Be careful about judging what God is doing- and God is with a big G.


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## jkdodge (Jul 17, 2008)

toddboucher said:


> I thought you were mr. do not Judge
> 
> What you call dead:  I might call alive, what you call alive Im sure I would call Emotionalism.
> 
> Be careful about judging what God is doing- and God is with a big G.



todd, you are right I should not have said that. What I mean by dead is when I attend a church a few times and see no one getting saved. I should have put it that way. I know you are just trying to get under my skin and thats fine it takes all kinds to make the world go round. You are correct God is with a cap. G.... I never said I was perfect at spelling or typing but I will try much harder not to offend you.


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## jkdodge (Jul 17, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> If you went to Bowdon HS...you get a pass on the spelling thing.
> 
> DW


 Im not from Bowdon I live here now only been here 2 years. I understand what you are saying you have been to Bowdon I take it. Scarry huh. My wife was born and raised here.


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## Dunamis (Jul 18, 2008)

Jesus,

Touch these heathen folk! 

-Amen


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## rjcruiser (Jul 18, 2008)

jkdodge said:


> What I mean by dead is when I attend a church a few times and see no one getting saved.



How do you know that no one is getting saved or not getting saved? 

Be careful...this is a very humanistic approach to viewing the success of a church and the authenticity of the gospel being preached.  Remember Elijah the prophet.  He taught the laws of God for years (over 80 I believe) without a single convert.  Does that mean his message was dead?


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## Spotlite (Jul 18, 2008)

Big7 said:


> Oscar Meyer has a way with B-O-L-O-G-N-A!
> 
> Next time yall have a break-out, please invite me.
> I gotta see it and if I do (really do, and yes I can tell)
> ...



Jesus has a way with M-O-C-K-E-R-Y!

Next time yall are looking for Mary, invite me, Id like to see her


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 18, 2008)

Big7 said:


> Oscar Meyer has a way with B-O-L-O-G-N-A!
> 
> Next time yall have a break-out, please invite me.
> I gotta see it and if I do (really do, and yes I can tell)
> ...



Believer's Fellowship Assembly of God
1855 Christian Circle
Conyers, Ga.

My name is Jared, ask one of the greeters and they'll point you my way.  I play the drums in the P/W band.  See ya sunday.


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## Lowjack (Jul 18, 2008)

1 Corinthians chapter 13 

1 I may be able to speak the languages of human beings and even of angels, but if I have no love, my speech is no more than a noisy gong or a clanging bell. 

2 I may have the gift of inspired preaching; I may have all knowledge and understand all secrets; I may have all the faith needed to move mountains-but if I have no love, I am nothing. 

3 I may give away everything I have, and even give up my body to be burned-but if I have no love, this does me no good.

4 Love is patient and kind; 
it is not jealous or conceited or proud; 
5 love is not ill-mannered or selfish or irritable; 
love does not keep a record of wrongs; 
6 love is not happy with evil, but is happy with the truth. 
7 Love never gives up; and its faith, hope, and patience never fail.

8 Love is eternal.

Do you speak love ?


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## Big7 (Jul 18, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> Jesus has a way with M-O-C-K-E-R-Y!
> 
> Next time yall are looking for Mary, invite me, Id like to see her



That was bad.
I took it down.
Not mockery though - just a poor choice of words. 

Spotlite - If you are refering to the lady out on 138 -
I don't believe that either. 

Doc - PM me your number,
I may take you up on that.
Your Church is not far from my house.


Thanks


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## EMC-GUN (Jul 18, 2008)

"When you start seeking after the"Holy Ghost" as taught by some adherrants here you will here many things to get you to speak in tongues.While few will admit to it,they believe that being filled with the Holy Ghost is most often,if not always evidenced by speaking in tongues.

You will be told to just claim it,it is a gift from God.You will be told to petition God at the throne of Grace,you have to refuse to leave without it,it's your birthright.

You will be told not to beg God for it,it's a gift.

You will stand at an altar after fasting 3 days or more,arms lifted to exaustion,praying aloud 'til you can't speak properly anymore,then have someone tell you.."That's it!That's It,you're almost there" almost like a vision quest...

Been there done all that....It's not Biblical the way it is presented in the majority of todays churches."


Seen this myself. Experienced it as well. That is why I believe that God will bestow upon me what He sees fit and when it is His timing! Actually when it happened with me I was told you are so close, keep speaking keep praying. Well it didn't happen. I felt so dissappointed that night! But now being more mature in God's word and having discernment, I realize I was trying to call the shots and get it right then and there. We don't serve a Burger King God (your way, right away), we serve an Awesome God who will work out his plan for your life in his timing! I have been told before "you need to go up to the alter and pray for tongues". Oh really? Did God just telll you that? He didn't tell me that. Or "you need to come up front and dance" Say what?!?!?!! If I don't feel led I really don't believe I am being called to these things. I will go where God leads me and nowhere else!


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## Spotlite (Jul 18, 2008)

Big7 said:


> That was bad.
> I took it down.
> Not mockery though - just a poor choice of words.
> 
> ...



I dont know the lady on 138, Im just


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## toddboucher (Jul 18, 2008)

EMC-GUN said:


> "When you start seeking after the"Holy Ghost" as taught by some adherrants here you will here many things to get you to speak in tongues.While few will admit to it,they believe that being filled with the Holy Ghost is most often,if not always evidenced by speaking in tongues.
> 
> You will be told to just claim it,it is a gift from God.You will be told to petition God at the throne of Grace,you have to refuse to leave without it,it's your birthright.
> 
> ...




Amen ---Well said!!!!!!


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 18, 2008)

Big7 said:


> Spotlite - If you are refering to the lady out on 138 -
> I don't believe that either.




Conyers, Ga... Eat, Drink, and See Mary!!!

http://www.conyers.org/1/
http://www.ourlovingmother.org/


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## Dixie Dawg (Jul 18, 2008)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> Conyers, Ga... Eat, Drink, and See Mary!!!
> 
> http://www.conyers.org/1/
> http://www.ourlovingmother.org/



Sometimes y'all make it so hard for a girl to behave.... I mean, REALLY!!!!


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## Big7 (Jul 18, 2008)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> Conyers, Ga... Eat, Drink, and See Mary!!!
> 
> http://www.conyers.org/1/
> http://www.ourlovingmother.org/



I didn't say she was not there - only that
I don't believe all that stuff any more than I believe
in the topic of this thread.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 18, 2008)

Big7 said:


> I didn't say she was not there - only that
> I don't believe all that stuff any more than I believe
> in the topic of this thread.



well I believe God can send angels and visions, as his word says it, but I have no idea if Nancy Fowler ever had actual visions.


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## Big7 (Jul 18, 2008)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> well I believe God can send angels and visions, as his word says it, but I have no idea if Nancy Fowler ever had actual visions.



I believe God can do anything he wants to do.
Just don't think speaking in tongues is what he wants
in this day. Before -yes.  Now - no.

If that is what he wants, I think he would do enough of "it"
for all to see.

If that's what you believe though, GOOD FOR YOU!


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## matthewsman (Jul 19, 2008)

*That's what is scary about it..!!*



dawg2 said:


> I went there on the day that was supposed to be the "last" occurence of visions.  I went COMPLETELY skeptical.  There were unexplained occurences, that surprised me, and I am not one eaily impressed with "tom foolery."



That's what is scary about that.The Bible doesn't speak of Mary coming back...Or more specifily showing up in Rockdale co,so when something tends to be happening supernaturally folks flock to it.Then you have to question if it ain't biblical,then what is it?


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## PJason (Jul 19, 2008)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> Eat, Drink, and See Mary!!!



OK now that is funny


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 19, 2008)

PJason said:


> OK now that is funny



you can buy t-shirts and bumper stickers!!!


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## GODZHUNTER77 (Jul 25, 2008)

*Happy to Answer this one*

This is the language of Angels and was the language that everyone spoke at the time of the tower of Babel. This is a language satan and demons cannot understand. The holy spirit inside of you prays through you. He prays for things you dont know what to ask for or what to pray. He always knows. You can pray this way anytime anyday. It is a very special gift andis awesome. Demons flee, unbelievers believe, you are sanctified.


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## farmasis (Jul 25, 2008)

GODZHUNTER77 said:


> This is the language of Angels and was the language that everyone spoke at the time of the tower of Babel. This is a language satan and demons cannot understand.


 
Hold on, wasn't Satan an angel and didn't he communicate with Adam and Eve?


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## Tim L (Jul 26, 2008)

Alittle off topic here, but as far as church beliefs and docterines, is there any difference in the Assemblies of God and the Church of God?


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## deerdog (Jul 26, 2008)

Big7 said:


> I believe God can do anything he wants to do.
> Just don't think speaking in tongues is what he wants
> in this day. Before -yes.  Now - no.
> 
> ...


God said im the same yesterday today and forever.


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## deerdog (Jul 26, 2008)

Rouster said:


> Do you know of any instances today where someone preached to people of another language and those people heard it in their native lanquage?  Example, say someone that only knows English and people that only knew, say Polish, could understand them?


yes my grandfather did he spoke in the romanian


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