# Is forgiving others required?



## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2013)

We've talked about this before but it's one thing that's always on my mind. I think forgiveness of others is one of the hardest commands from God in the New Testament.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. Verse 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
(if you don't forgive others, will God forgive you?)

This is a teaching directly from Jesus. He said forgive others 7 X 70 which is infinity. Christianity is based on forgiveness. It's of utmost importance. Unforgiveness is hate. Love is of utmost importance.

I would like to hear comments on forgivness and if the Godly command is required for Salvation. Does anyone, other than me, have trouble with forgiveness? I remember camping with my parents Camping Club in the eighties and my dad the Chaplain's service was on this topic. Just mentioned that to show how it weighs on my soul. What does Matthew 6:14-15 mean to you? How do you rightly divide the truth on forgiveness? Remember, you reap what you sow.


----------



## Inthegarge (Jan 12, 2013)

Most of us wish it wasn't what we are supposed to do..... I have been in situations where the world would say it was something they could never forgive.... I have learned that forgiving is not forgetting....

I can't not imagine not forgiving others after all I have been forgiven for......It's not easy, but I sleep a lot better at night and it is what Christ told us as belivers to do...


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2013)

One thing related to forgiveness is if God forgave Judas. Jesus asked God, his Father, to forgive the bunch of them.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2013)

Inthegarge said:


> Most of us wish it wasn't what we are supposed to do..... I have been in situations where the world would say it was something they could never forgive.... I have learned that forgiving is not forgetting....
> 
> I can't not imagine not forgiving others after all I have been forgiven for......It's not easy, but I sleep a lot better at night and it is what Christ told us as belivers to do...



I wanted to add, I feel the same way. If God can forgive me of my transgressions against my fellow men, some I hate to even think about, and my sins against him, who am I to not forgive others. Usually it's something that's not even worth holding a grudge. I have come to realize that things I once held important aren't. Recently a coworker was crying because she scratched my car. I tried to calm her down by saying it's just a car. It doesn't bother me, our friendship is more important than a car. Our health is more important than a car. We don't need the stress.


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 13, 2013)

I am pretty sure it is a requirement.  It is for the benefit of the one giving forgiveness, as ITG said....it helps you sleep at night.

That being said, I hold grudges for very long times.  Once I write somebody off.....their off.  I am very, very bad with the forgiveness stuff.  Opportunity for improvement.


----------



## formula1 (Jan 13, 2013)

*Re:*

Perhaps the command 'Be holy for your Heavenly Father is Holy' also applies to forgiveness as well.  It's not that you will ever attain perfect holiness within yourself, but God demands that you strive for it.  Forgiveness is a huge part of that striving!


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Jan 13, 2013)

I would like to go back through and study these "forgiveness verses". I wonder if he was speaking this to believers or speaking this to the crowd in order to show that they were in need of a savior because forgiveness was not in there nature. We can forgive those who have offended us,yet many times we wear it as a badge, proud that we mustered up enough righteousness even though they did not deserve it. Well, sorry but that ain't forgiveness. Let's say someone kills your daughter after a period of different ways of torture. For those who say that they would forgive, I'd like to knock you upside the head, cause I know some of you would "claim" it so. Thinking back, I'm trying to remember if any of the apostles mentioed this forgiveness. Someone help me out. The book of Philemon has it briefly. I recall in Collossians, saying "forgive as Christ forgave you" in the context of "grievances", I think in the context of "church grievances". I should look back at that. Anyway, we do have it in the 4 gospels. But is it recorded as Jesus teaching his believers or is it recorded as just one of the many things he said. Meaning it might have been an effort to show the need of a savior. Kind of like when he said if anyone look at a woman lustfully then he should pluck out his eye. That hit home to the hearing men making them realize that they needed a savior. The beauty of our forgiveness is that God forgives us, where as if we claim forgiveness, we have not forgotten. That is real forgiveness, to forget/erase, not counterfit


----------



## polkhunt (Jan 21, 2013)

read luke 17 3-4. I do not think it is required of us if the other person does not repent but if we can forgive the other person and move on with life I think it can only help our relationship with Christ.


----------



## Israel (Jan 21, 2013)

There is something about "all" the things that are ours in Christ.
We can...no...not only can...but absolutely will avail ourselves of them only to the extent we believe they are real.

We talk much about ourselves being forgiven all, but in practice, in fact, in truth, we only know them to the extent we enjoy them.

We can't lie to God. We can't be where we are not, nor be what we are not. If we have not explored all those places that faith will take us...God will see to it...by his extreme mercy and grace...to find them. If we really believe God is all, then, like a ship that has had its rudder pinned and sails set...we also, like Abraham, will go into a land we "know not".

God wants to flush out in us every bit of fear, every bit of doubt, every bit of restraint that would withhold life from being manifested in every situation.
Simply put...the place at which we withhold forgiveness, is the place in which we fear, "if" we were there...we would not know forgiveness.

Oh, we can go to the writings to justify ourselves, we can go to the testimonies of others to ease our conscience...we may even find counsel that would tell us..."no, in this thing...YOU are right!"

But ultimately...I am convinced, the child of God will see an uneasy place, a place Jesus spoke of, a place where our own fears are finally manifested to us...that place where we have said in our hearts "if I were like that person (a betrayer, a fornicator, a "sinner", a rebel)...there would be no mercy. That place where we have decided that we are different, that we are special and alone in our own glory...and God will let us abide there as long as needful...alone. Until we see...until we have failed in all our inner machinations to find grace to undo the lie that tells us we can hide from our own flesh.

We are all the same brothers. We are either all of of One...or alone. And though there remain tests of that confession, even, and especially, perfectly designed and ordained of God, we will discover whether we have received the love of the truth...or not.
"he who is forgiven much, the same loves much."

I never knew at the outset the depths to which I had set my compass in seeking to the love the Lord. I can make no boast that I do, especially now. But he has taken me to places far deeper than being forgiven for cussing, or womanizing, or prideful arrogance, or betrayal, even. He has shown me I am forgiven...for being "me"...the thing that willingly and so easily sees itself as someone separate from my brothers, and throws that lie in the face of God, and in reality declares "I am, and beside me there is no other".

Our tents are stretched, our cords lengthened, our pegs get refastened. I can go no farther than I can see...but I cannot deny I have seen what I have...Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. Were it not for God's merciful hand to bring me to places where I mistakenly thought "they" need God's mercy far more than I, I would never have known this. Those places where I mistakenly thought as I dusted off my shoes..."mercy is exhausted here".

Go, ye therefore and preach the gospel (and finally, eventually, joyfully learn for whom I have come) while all the previous while, we thought we were doing the Lord a favor. And being a "good" disciple.


----------



## Panthers65 (Jan 21, 2013)

The only "requirement" for gaining eternity in Heaven is accepting Jesus. John 3:16 is very clear on this, "whoever does this gets this..."

That being said, part of being a Christian is following Jesus. God does not expect us to be perfect, but he does expect us to try. Pray for peace in your relationships, make the effort to forgive, but in the end realize you are human and there are limitations to your ability to forgive. 

I certainly do believe you can live a life of imperfection as long as your recognize and feel remorse for your imperfections. I do not believe you can consciously prioritize a sin above your relationship with God.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jan 21, 2013)

I'm with Panther on this...Salvation is a free gift.

That being said, if we are saved, we will bear the fruit of Salvation.  Forgiveness is a fruit of salvation.


----------



## gtparts (Jan 21, 2013)

One way of determining our position in Christ (relative to where we have been) is to look at how much we imitate Christ in our thoughts and actions. Learning and practicing forgiveness is an integral and necessary part of sanctification. To be a follower of Christ demands it and embracing it draws us deeper into the truth of who Christ is and what we can be. To forgive is to relinquish any claim we might make for ourselves over others. 

To withhold forgiveness has been rightly compared to drinking poison and expecting the other person to suffer.


----------



## thedeacon (Jan 21, 2013)

I believe if we expect God to forgive us we must be willing to forgive others and we should forgive to the extent that we want God to forgive us.

The thing that bothers me in this question is, Do we do just what is required or do we do what we think is Godly and Rightous. Its been a long time since I thought of doing something just because it is required of God, I would like to think that I do what I do because I love God and want to please him.

When a person finds his spouse is unfaithful they have a reason to get a divorce that is truly ok with God. Does that mean you have to forgive them for their sin against you? If you forgive them do you have to stay married to them? I think two good questions.

Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments, the trouble is most of us at one time or another think that most of what Jesus says is just suggestions. We work more to justify ourselves than we do looking for the truth.

If you can't forgive someone then don't expect God to forgive you for everything.

Just my thoughts.


----------



## hummerpoo (Jan 21, 2013)

I'm going to gamble here by responding to the thread title, without reading everything else.

From experience I'm guessing that I would read something like:
	Forgive so that you can sleep better.
	Forgive so that God will forgive you.
	Forgive because we are commanded to forgive.
	I may have to forgive but I don't have to forget.
	You don't have to forgive the unrepentant.
	I must forgive because I have been forgiven,
	If you can't really forgive, you have to at least try.
Is forgiveness about the offended or the offender?  I believe it's the latter, but the conversation seems to always go the other way.

The anonymity afforded by the forum makes the telling of the following possible.

On Saturday I drove for six hours to purchase a used item (craiglist) needed for health reasons and , although not much money, I felt I could not afford new.  I later discovered a defect which was concealed but obvious with extended use yesterday afternoon.  After a moment of feeling foolish for having been deceived, I was struck hard by the realization that there is a serious scar on the heart of the seller, and I can only pray for it's healing.  Forgiveness, never entered the picture until I read the thread title.


----------



## Israel (Jan 21, 2013)

gtparts said:


> One way of determining our position in Christ (relative to where we have been) is to look at how much we imitate Christ in our thoughts and actions. Learning and practicing forgiveness is an integral and necessary part of sanctification. To be a follower of Christ demands it and embracing it draws us deeper into the truth of who Christ is and what we can be. To forgive is to relinquish any claim we might make for ourselves _over others_.
> 
> To withhold forgiveness has been rightly compared to drinking poison and expecting the other person to suffer.



Those red words say precisely:
#1. The exact measure of what is stated spiritually (that being "in truth") in forgiveness.
#2. The heart's true acceptance of its position as one man amongst many, before God.

I am not bold enough to say what that one man, who refuses to raise himself above his brethren, or as was stated, willingly refuses to be "over others", sees.

(GT, please forgive my highlighting, cause the whole of the post merits equal consideration)


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 22, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> I'm going to gamble here by responding to the thread title, without reading everything else.
> 
> From experience I'm guessing that I would read something like:
> Forgive so that you can sleep better.
> ...


That is not much of a gamble. As men, we understand each others thoughts, desires and treasured secrets. Thankfully for some, being shown their inability to truly forgive, God reveals true forgiveness and the only place of refuge.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 22, 2013)

Maybe the Holy Spirit helps us achieve the fruit of salvation to meet the requirements such as forgiveness and prayer. I would hope we do these things other than for requirements even though the requirements are there.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 22, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe the Holy Spirit helps us achieve the fruit of salvation to meet the requirements such as forgiveness and prayer. I would hope we do these things other than for requirements even though the requirements are there.


"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."


----------



## stringmusic (Jan 22, 2013)

polkhunt said:


> read luke 17 3-4. I do not think it is required of us if the other person does not repent but if we can forgive the other person and move on with life I think it can only help our relationship with Christ.



I agree. I believe we can and should forgive, but a relationship cannot be restored until the other person repents. Only then can the offended start the process of trusting the offender again and restoring the relationship.

That being said, forgiveness and trusting do not necessarily go hand and hand.


----------



## Israel (Jan 22, 2013)

Seems we can opt to be as much unlike the Lord as we care to be...and I suppose that is one thing liberty ensures.
I know I have chosen it.
I can tell you though...it's not nearly as interesting as investing a little bit for a whole lot more.
But...then...flying maybe only intrigues some?


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 22, 2013)

Forgive them for they know not what they do. And even when they know....Men can call the wirlwinds on themselves with rancor. The axe must be burried at some point. It might as well start with me. 

I believe we must forgive others, but justice must always be done. Take this specific in our times: Take the Middle East. ( Isreal and Palistine.) Lots of forgiving must be done and lots of justice...if ever peace and freedom are to be achieved for the people there and for us for that matter.


Right now Isreal is behaving badly...and if history repeats itself predictably some palistinians are going to retaliate and all palestinians again are going to be cast as the evil doers. Only justice and forgiveness are going to put and end to this. It is very strange how to some evil deeds we are indifferent and apethetic and to others intimate with emphathy.


----------



## Dr. Strangelove (Jan 23, 2013)

How about - Don't dwell on what wrongs others have done you.  It'll eat you up and make your life miserable.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jan 23, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Right now Isreal is behaving badly...and if history repeats itself predictably some palistinians are going to retaliate and all palestinians again are going to be cast as the evil doers.



You've got this exactly backwards.  Here's a three and a half minute summary of what's really going on in the Middle East:


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 23, 2013)

You've got this exactly backwards...

I go by the boots on the ground, not ideas...but  people's or a nation's works. The continued Isreali settlements on Palestine's eventual homeland and the deportation of palestinians from their lands is unjust. It is as simple as this. Idea folk can spin it the way they want, it still does not make it just. 

I would bet that the palestinians will have to forgive the nation of Isreal in our times, but that the political leaders of the State of Isreal should be ready to face justice for thier crimes. Otherwise...if God's simple precepts are not followed, our great grand children will know intimately the evils we know in the Holy Land.

Justice and Forgiving don't have to be devisive as the politics of Zionism and the aspiration of Palestinians for their own homeland. Justice and Forgiveness have no colors or shades as spiritual principles. They are what they are, and are not what they are not.

Give Ceaser what is his and let us not make His Ceaser's. Either your for God's justice or not. Not being: one foot here and one foot there.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jan 23, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> You've got this exactly backwards...
> 
> I go by the boots on the ground, not ideas...but  people's or a nation's works. The continued Isreali settlements on Palestine's eventual homeland and the deportation of palestinians from their lands is unjust. It is as simple as this. Idea folk can spin it the way they what, it still does not make it just.
> 
> ...



Incredible.  You didn't even watch the video, did you?  

I'll leave you with this quote from Dennis Prager:

"The Israel-Arab conflict is the morally clearest dispute in our time.  Therefore, anyone who sides with Israel’s enemies or who works to delegitimize Israel has a broken moral compass, is to be feared, and is to be fought by all good people."


----------



## hawglips (Jan 23, 2013)

Panthers65 said:


> The only "requirement" for gaining eternity in Heaven is accepting Jesus. John 3:16 is very clear on this, "whoever does this gets this..."



Accepting Jesus is a lot more than saying, "Lord, Lord..."


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 23, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Incredible.  You didn't even watch the video, did you?
> 
> I'll leave you with this quote from Dennis Prager:
> 
> "The Israel-Arab conflict is the morally clearest dispute in our time.  Therefore, anyone who sides with Israel’s enemies or who works to delegitimize Israel has a broken moral compass, is to be feared, and is to be fought by all good people."



Yes I have and have seen it previous to you posting it. I side with justice...peace and forgiveness...

Propaganda is not news.... I prefer legit news organizations and professional journalists and their facts...to propaganda facts from all sides. For example, I don't believe all the people in Georgia are for secession, even though a few are. I don't believe all the people of palestine what to rub out the Isreali, nor do I believe all the people of Isreal what to rub out the palestinians. But some do on both sides and their doings are unjust moraly! Case closed.

As for the rest I forgive you your ideas of my doings...and it is my sincere hope that peace be with you always my brother.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jan 23, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Yes I have and have seen it previous to you posting it. I side with justice...peace and forgiveness...



Do you condemn Hamas?


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 23, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Do you condemn Hamas?



Do you condemn Isreali(government) settlements on Palestinian land? Do you condemn the division of Palestinian land by Isreal. Do you condemn Isreal's deportation and ethnic cleansing of palistinians from Palestine?

Say these are unjust and I will say Hamas or the remedies proposed by Hamas are unjust. 

Our deeds have to be forgiven and justice must be done...not just for a few nations and their peoples but for and to all nations and all people.

Would you condemn Hawk Rebublicans for the war in Iraq to rid the Hussien regime? Forgiven them? Not think twice about it? My point is we can teeth-for- tat forever... but at some point we must side for justice and forgiveness if we are sincere about peace.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jan 23, 2013)

hawglips said:


> Accepting Jesus is a lot more than saying, "Lord, Lord..."



       Don't you just get tired of all this talk about Christian requirements and salvation and new birth?

I think we make to much of all that, don't you?  Churches need to print forms (denominational specific obviously) such as this:

"This person has complied with the provision of John 3:16."
Then it should be signed by a pastor/elder of the church.

Sarcasm aside, a person who is clothed in Christ and embodied by God's spirit should be able to exercise, to a dramatic degree, forgiveness.  Not because someone deserves it but because you've never deserved it.
We are to be a light unto the world.  If we were, this world would be a better place than it is.  

Does God expect us to forgive?  Does God command us to forgive?  Of course.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jan 23, 2013)

I will not condemn Israel.  They are not the bad guys here.

I do condemn Hamas.  They are a terrorist group who killed 241 US Marines and who is pledged to the destruction of Israel.

Do you condemn Hamas?


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 23, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I will not condemn Israel.  They are not the bad guys here.
> 
> I do condemn Hamas.  They are a terrorist group who killed 241 US Marines and who is pledged to the destruction of Israel.
> 
> Do you condemn Hamas?



I condemn no one. I would encourage that we all strive to go and sin no more. And I would stir the ground with my finger or a stick and bless it as the earth we are all blessed to worship on.


----------



## Panthers65 (Jan 24, 2013)

hawglips said:


> Accepting Jesus is a lot more than saying, "Lord, Lord..."



huh?


----------



## mtnwoman (Jan 27, 2013)

I agree with....Look what Christ has forgiven me for, how can I not forgive?

It seems I stay under heavy conviction for forgiveness....the sooner the better. Yes, you may not forget, and may not need 'that' person in your life. I don't necessarily think forgiveness is a requirement, I'd say it's more of a 'given'.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jan 27, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I will not condemn Israel.  They are not the bad guys here.
> 
> I do condemn Hamas.  They are a terrorist group who killed 241 US Marines and who is pledged to the destruction of Israel.
> 
> Do you condemn Hamas?



Not sure I exactly condemn hamas, I blame them because they are guilty. I more or less think this falls under...
'for they know not what they do'.....satan's work.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jan 27, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Don't you just get tired of all this talk about Christian requirements and salvation and new birth?



Honestly, I don't get tired of it. There are always new lurkers/readers here that we don't know about and we gotta keep sowing the seeds.


----------



## hawglips (Jan 29, 2013)

> Originally Posted by hawglips
> Accepting Jesus is a lot more than saying, "Lord, Lord..."





Panthers65 said:


> huh?



Matt. 7:21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


----------



## THREEJAYS (Feb 1, 2013)

hawglips said:


> Accepting Jesus is a lot more than saying, "Lord, Lord..."



X2 Big AMEN


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 1, 2013)

hawglips said:


> Matt. 7:21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.



I guess you need to define what "doeth the will of my Father" means. Matters not why one does this "will". Do the will of God out of love, fruit of the Spirit, or as commandments. Love & forgivness are part of this.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Feb 26, 2013)

Is forgiving others required?  Absolutely but it's more than that.  I asked a question to my kids at the supper table a while back, What is a miracle?  After we talked about it a while we kind of settled on this as a definition: Miracle- Something that is supernatural and can't be explained by the laws of nature.  Maybe not perfect, but it works.   I think forgiveness is a miracle.  It's certainly doesnt occur in nature.  In fact, it directly contradicts the laws of nature to love someone who has hurt or injured you.  It seems to run counter to self-preservation.   It's very seldom seen among humans either, especially among unbelievers.  But this act more than any other sets us apart and makes us distinct among all of creation.  I think forgiveness is the one miracle that we as humans endowed by God, not only have the capacity, but a duty to perform on a daily basis.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

Why would God command us to forgive others if the act of us forgivng others is just fruit?


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 27, 2013)

A person who cannot forgive does not have Christ abiding in them.
.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> A person who cannot forgive does not have Christ abiding in them.
> .



So why the command? If Christ is abiding in us, why do we need commandments & guidelines on not doing bad stuff?


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2013)

Great observation.

Discipleship is not a mindless journey.  Filled with decisions that we all must make.  And we cannot make them without accepting the aid of Christ.  If we do not accept, we cannot have.

Remember the scripture....  "Do not quench the Spirit within you!"?

If a person cannot forgive, the person has not been given over to Christ.     
If a person can forgive, but doesn't, he is a wayward Christian who refuses to do what he has been given the ability to do.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Great observation.
> 
> Discipleship is not a mindless journey.  Filled with decisions that we all must make.  And we cannot make them without accepting the aid of Christ.  If we do not accept, we cannot have.
> 
> ...



I'm with you on that as I've quenched the Spirit within me before. We have the ability to forgive others. But the commandment still stands. I would like to believe a Christian forgives someone because he knows it is the right thing to do. Maybe God knows we don't always follow the Spirit and thus the command. You can and should forgive because of "fruit" and it's the right thing to do or you can do it because of the command & obedience to God.


----------

