# Christian rappers????



## Gabassmaster

What are yalls opinions on this???


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## Ronnie T

Well, at first thought it's just another for the devil to get the church closer to the ways of the world.

Second thought, if the trashy rappers would rap about God rather than killing cops and raping women, it could be a good thing.

A cute little rap by a preacher behind the pulpit might be one thing, but for our teens to go to a concert to listen to a "star" rap?????  Doesn't sound like something God would place His signature on.


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## CAL

Gabassmaster said:


> What are yalls opinions on this???


Well it is not for me.My son goes to a mega church that has contemporary music and is filled full of people mostly young folks or may I say the younger crowd of folks.There is no rapping but the music is very close in my opinion.The congregation is dressed in everything from bermuda shorts to flip flops.Probably well over 1000 people.The pastors message is always excellent too.I was raised to wear a little better cloths in church and we always sang the old hymns too.Most there probably wouldn't be there otherwise if they had to dress up so to speak.I guess it is just the way one is raised.
I guess if a persons heart is in the right place then the Christian rapping would be too.But that kind of music is not for me whether in church or out.


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## Gabassmaster

Ronnie T said:


> Well, at first thought it's just another for the devil to get the church closer to the ways of the world.
> 
> Second thought, if the trashy rappers would rap about God rather than killing cops and raping women, it could be a good thing.
> 
> A cute little rap by a preacher behind the pulpit might be one thing, but for our teens to go to a concert to listen to a "star" rap?????  Doesn't sound like something God would place His signature on.



Amen ronnie


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## fulldraw74

CAL said:


> Well it is not for me.My son goes to a mega church that has contemporary music and is filled full of people mostly young folks or may I say the younger crowd of folks.There is no rapping but the music is very close in my opinion.The congregation is dressed in everything from bermuda shorts to flip flops.Probably well over 1000 people.The pastors message is always excellent too.I was raised to wear a little better cloths in church and we always sang the old hymns too.Most there probably wouldn't be there otherwise if they had to dress up so to speak.I guess it is just the way one is raised.
> I guess if a persons heart is in the right place then the Christian rapping would be too.But that kind of music is not for me whether in church or out.


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## formula1

*Re:*

It's all about the message and giving God the Glory and reaching folks for Jesus. That's all that matters to me! I can quelch my pride and my likes and dislikes for that purpose. If you are brave enough, take a listen to one, but listen to the whole thing or you might not get it.


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## rjcruiser

If the message is accurate, the delivery doesn't matter...does it?


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## centerpin fan

Rap tightens my colon.


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## applejuice

centerpin fan said:


> Rap tightens my colon.





Post of the day


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## stringmusic

applejuice said:


> Post of the day



x2


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## stringmusic

rjcruiser said:


> If the message is accurate, the delivery doesn't matter...does it?



It shouldn't, but I think it does at least some, especially when delivering the message to the secular world.


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## Michael F. Gray

At the risk of offending some, let me be brutally honest. Rap music and CHRISTIAN don't belong in the same sentance. Years ago Dr. Bob Jones,Sr. made the statment,  "a PRAYING knee and a dancing foot are not found on the same leg". It's time for God's people to come out from among them and be seperate. A man that won't stand for something will fall for anything. Perhaps that's the real problem.


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## rjcruiser

stringmusic said:


> It shouldn't, but I think it does at least some, especially when delivering the message to the secular world.



That begs another question.  Does the message change whether we're rapping to Christians and/or non-Christians?



Michael F. Gray said:


> At the risk of offending some, let me be brutally honest. Rap music and CHRISTIAN don't belong in the same sentance. Years ago Dr. Bob Jones,Sr. made the statment,  "a PRAYING knee and a dancing foot are not found on the same leg". It's time for God's people to come out from among them and be seperate. A man that won't stand for something will fall for anything. Perhaps that's the real problem.




Hmmm...wonder what Dr. Bob Jones, Sr. would say about David dancing to the tamborine.

At the risk of offending you Michael, maybe you should focus more on what the Word of God says, rather than on what Dr. Jones said.


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## stringmusic

rjcruiser said:


> That begs another question.  Does the message change whether we're rapping to Christians and/or non-Christians?


I don't think the message should change, it should always be for and about Jesus Christ. I think there are different delivery styles to accommodate a vast majority of people, as long as the premise never changes.


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## rjcruiser

stringmusic said:


> I don't think the message should change, it should always be for and about Jesus Christ. I think there are different delivery styles to accommodate a vast majority of people, as long as the premise never changes.



I'd agree whole-heartedly.

Look at Christ's messages to the masses.  Some were Christians...some were not.  But the message applied to all.

Now...the problem I see with most preachers/rappers/musicians today is that they've watered down the message to sell records and fill the pews.  IMO, it's a problem if your song is played on Star 94 and your a Christian artist.


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## Ronnie T

stringmusic said:


> It shouldn't, but I think it does at least some, especially when delivering the message to the secular world.



I think you're right.  Accuracy of the message is obviously important but appropriateness goes far beyond that.
The gospel could be taught accurately by a nude dancer at a topless bar, but it wouldn't be appropriate.
The same can occur at a rock concert, but it would be entertainment rather than worship or study.

Our openmindedness is creating a nation of phoney disciples.
Far to many of our teenagers are biblically illiterate, but they know the words and beats to many of the songs preformed by hard rock christian groups.

We're being irresponsible to our obligation to bring them up in the Lord.

"We are not of this world".  When you mix godliness with worldliness, both become fuzzy and watered down.

I watched the video.
I guess now youth groups will learn rap so they can preform their raps songs during Sunday worship and impress the parents.


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## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> I think you're right.  Accuracy of the message is obviously important but appropriateness goes far beyond that.
> The gospel could be taught accurately by a nude dancer at a topless bar, but it wouldn't be appropriate.
> The same can occur at a rock concert, but it would be entertainment rather than worship or study.
> 
> Our openmindedness is creating a nation of phoney disciples.
> Far to many of our teenagers are biblically illiterate, but they know the words and beats to many of the songs preformed by hard rock christian groups.
> 
> We're being irresponsible to our obligation to bring them up in the Lord.
> 
> "We are not of this world".  When you mix godliness with worldliness, both become fuzzy and watered down.
> 
> I watched the video.
> I guess now youth groups will learn rap so they can preform their raps songs during Sunday worship and impress the parents.



Ronnie...how can you compare a rap to a topless dancer? 

Obviously, the message would be compromised if you mixed worldliness into the equation.


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## Jeffriesw

I have to say I am not much of a rap guy, but to blast them (rappers & fans) simply because we don't like their style and then automatically name them and their music sinful is patently ridiculous.
Sometimes I wonder if we (collectively) find ourselves in a much more conservative position that God on certain subjects.


 Here is a Rapper named Shai Linne, Check out the lyrics, seems sound to me.


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## fishndinty

Ronnie T said:


> I think you're right.  Accuracy of the message is obviously important but appropriateness goes far beyond that.
> The gospel could be taught accurately by a nude dancer at a topless bar, but it wouldn't be appropriate.
> The same can occur at a rock concert, but it would be entertainment rather than worship or study.
> 
> Our openmindedness is creating a nation of phoney disciples.
> Far to many of our teenagers are biblically illiterate, but they know the words and beats to many of the songs preformed by hard rock christian groups.
> 
> We're being irresponsible to our obligation to bring them up in the Lord.
> 
> "We are not of this world".  When you mix godliness with worldliness, both become fuzzy and watered down.
> 
> I watched the video.
> I guess now youth groups will learn rap so they can preform their raps songs during Sunday worship and impress the parents.



So I guess it doesn't matter at all that many of the standby hymns we would find most Godly and appropriate were lyrics written to popular (secular) Welsh or Scottish airs or with structures that mirrored popular Medieval poetry?

The message in the video was spot on and Biblical.  If you don't like the style, that's fine.  But that is a preposterous reason to compare it to topless dancing.  

Since you are down on rap, what about the rest of Contemporary Christian music?  Are Twila Paris, the Gaither Vocal Band, and Avalon as worldly as Nine Inch Nails?

Disciples of Christ need to stop eating their own and realize that if the message is Biblical, God can and will use it.  If you want to analyze the message of Christian rap or CCM, there is PLENTY of room for improvement. The same can be said of LOTS of hymns.


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## rjcruiser

fishndinty said:


> Disciples of Christ need to stop eating their own and realize that if the message is Biblical, God can and will use it.  If you want to analyze the message of Christian rap or CCM, there is PLENTY of room for improvement. The same can be said of LOTS of hymns.



Nothing like a little DOC.

I'm more of an old school DC Talk fan myself.


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## formula1

Ronnie T said:


> "We are not of this world".  When you mix godliness with worldliness, both become fuzzy and watered down.
> 
> I watched the video.
> I guess now youth groups will learn rap so they can preform their raps songs during Sunday worship and impress the parents.



I get that you don't like it and I respect you for your own choice that works for you and the message of Christ you want to convey, especially in the light of you being a pastor. You must minister Christ to your people the best way you see fit.

The rigid legalism of churches past (and some present) would have not just watered down the gospel for me and 1000's like me, but it would have destroyed it. Yet because of the willinginess of some Godly men to not become so self-absorbed in their righteousness, they related Christ to me in a way I would receive it and enter the fold of discipleship as a result.  There are 1000's of young people on fire for Jesus as a result. And yes, it is not only worth it, they are changing lives themselves everyday.

I get it you think it's compromise. I think it's relating the Gospel to those that you cannot or are not willing to reach, unless they first come your way. God doesn't work that way.  He leaves the comfort of the 99 to reach the 1. You know this is true. I'm convinced of it.

You see, I feel kinda like Jesus did on this subject:

Luke 7:35 Yet wisdom is justified by all her children.

And to end, I leave you other scriptures and one other word, I deeply love and respect you RonnieT in the Lord, just so you know!

1 Cor 10
19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

Mark 7:15
There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.

Matthew 12:35
The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil.

1 Timothy 4:12
Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.

1 Cor 10
31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.


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## Ronnie T

Sorry for the miss que.  I didn't mean to compare rap to nudity.
I just used it as an example.


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## Jeffriesw




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## Ronnie T

formula1 said:


> I get that you don't like it and I respect you for your own choice that works for you and the message of Christ you want to convey, especially in the light of you being a pastor. You must minister Christ to your people the best way you see fit.
> 
> The rigid legalism of churches past (and some present) would have not just watered down the gospel for me and 1000's like me, but it would have destroyed it. Yet because of the willinginess of some Godly men to not become so self-absorbed in their righteousness, they related Christ to me in a way I would receive it and enter the fold of discipleship as a result.  There are 1000's of young people on fire for Jesus as a result. And yes, it is not only worth it, they are changing lives themselves everyday.
> 
> I get it you think it's compromise. I think it's relating the Gospel to those that you cannot or are not willing to reach, unless they first come your way. God doesn't work that way.  He leaves the comfort of the 99 to reach the 1. You know this is true. I'm convinced of it.
> 
> You see, I feel kinda like Jesus did on this subject:
> 
> Luke 7:35 Yet wisdom is justified by all her children.
> 
> And to end, I leave you other scriptures and one other word, I deeply love and respect you RonnieT in the Lord, just so you know!
> 
> 1 Cor 10
> 19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
> 
> Mark 7:15
> There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.
> 
> Matthew 12:35
> The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil.
> 
> 1 Timothy 4:12
> Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.
> 
> 1 Cor 10
> 31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.



You might be 'on target' with everything you say.
But I'm fearful.


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## CAL

I think Bro.Ronnie means that it is hardly possible to get the Lords message from a topless dancer because of what the crowd is seeing by the same respect the same goes for the rapper.The crowd would miss the message because of the beat and the rapping.This is the way I read it anyway.


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## formula1

*Re:*

SwampRunner:

Thanks for the tune. I'm constantly looking for biblical lyrics like this.  I love it!  Try out this one:


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## Ronnie T

Please understand that I'm not suggesting that Christian rap is a tool of Satan and anyone who listens to it is going to hel l.


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## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> Please understand that I'm not suggesting that Christian rap is a tool of Satan and anyone who listens to it is going to hel l.



I really don't think that Ronnie...just taking your example and running with it.

I do think that as Michael's post above displays...we can take legalism to its extreme and allow us to judge something before actually researching it.

I've been guilty of that before.


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## formula1

Ronnie T said:


> You might be 'on target' with everything you say.
> But I'm fearful.



Understood, my friend!  It's a comfort level you are not at.

It would do your heart good to see young folks crying out to Jesus and sacrificing their lives for the gospel because someone reached into their world and touched their spirits for Jesus. They did not exclude them because of their interests. They loved them into the Kingdom.  That's what it is all about!


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## Jeff Phillips

The Apostle Paul would have rapped if that's what it took to win souls to Christ! 1 Corinthians 9:22b

As long as the message is correct, use it to reach folks where they are.

It's not my thing, I like the old songs. Of course they were once new songs and I'm sure some of the old folks like me complained


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## Ronnie T

Hey, I wouldn't like country rap either.


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## Ronnie T

This is one of my favorite raps.

http://youtu.be/fxNvJQzsy_E


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## gtparts

So many times I have had to reconsider some ill-considered positions I once held as "sacred". By the Holy Spirit and God's grace, I have come to understand that God would not have any be lost, but is not going to force any into relationship with Him through Christ. He truly loves each so much that He is not going to violate that principle, that each must make that choice for him or herself. 

That leaves me with this reality.

I must seek to tell others of Christ with the hope that when the Holy Spirit draws them, they will come willingly, passionately to Him. I am unwilling to turn my back on that task and, if for some, the call may come through Christian rap, then why would I oppose it? Do I only love those who fall into the narrow confines of my comfort zone? Will I go across the street, but not over another block? If Jesus would die for me, unclean and condemned, does He not count the lost young people who enjoy rap of equal worth? 

Ask yourself this:
Should God ask you if you allowed for the Holy Spirit to use rap for His glory and the salvation of a generation, would you really like to stand there and tell Him you opposed it on the basis of personal preference?


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## formula1

*Re:*

I knew that RonnieT would post Beautiful Savior.  Its a great song BTW.  Here something that is one of my favorites:


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## Ronnie T

formula1 said:


> I knew that RonnieT would post Beautiful Savior.  Its a great song BTW.  Here something that is one of my favorites:
> 
> 
> I like it.
> 
> I mentioned this thread to my neice (who lives with us).  Her boyfriend is the youth minister at 1st Bapt in town.
> She said they listen to Christian rap all the time and I'm an ol fuddy.
> What can I say.


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## polkhunt

music itself cannot be evil or holy only the lyrics. I have no problem with it, it is not really my thing but neither is the old time southern gospel. My guess is that back in the days of Yeshua the music and lyrics they used probably didn't sound like anything we know today or would even like.


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## Sterlo58

Rap is not music. I don't care to hear it regardless of the message.


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## stringmusic

rjcruiser said:


> I'd agree whole-heartedly.
> 
> Look at Christ's messages to the masses.  Some were Christians...some were not.  But the message applied to all.
> 
> Now...the problem I see with most preachers/rappers/musicians today is that they've watered down the message to sell records and *fill the pews*.  IMO, it's a problem if your song is played on Star 94 and your a Christian artist.



I believe this is one of the biggest problems with "preachers" or "pastors" today, keeping records and making sure they hit certian numbers in the baptising pool every month. Talking with their other "preacher" friends about how many people they have in the pews every week and how to get more. IMO, I think this problem of filling the pews turns more people away from Christ in the long run than we may think. I guess it can be said that any church without Christ as the focal point will eventually turn people away, but for whatever reason, I think this is one of the biggest problems.


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## Ronnie T

polkhunt said:


> music itself cannot be evil or holy only the lyrics. I have no problem with it, it is not really my thing but neither is the old time southern gospel. My guess is that back in the days of Yeshua the music and lyrics they used probably didn't sound like anything we know today or would even like.



I'll bet you one thing.  I'll bet the singing of spiritual songs in Jesus' day were intended to speak only to the heart of God and the hearts of those singing!
I'll bet they didn't try to mimic the sounds and styles of music that were heard in places like the temple of Artemis, or in Athens, or the heathen temples of Ephesus.
I promise you that.


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## formula1

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> I'll bet you one thing.  I'll bet the singing of spiritual songs in Jesus' day were intended to speak only to the heart of God and the hearts of those singing!
> I'll bet they didn't try to mimic the sounds and styles of music that were heard in places like the temple of Artemis, or in Athens, or the heathen temples of Ephesus.
> I promise you that.



Well at Pentecost, the were magnifying God in tongues of angels! There's your spiritual song!!!


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## Ronnie T

formula1 said:


> Well at Pentecost, the were magnifying God in tongues of angels! There's your spiritual song!!!



Tongues of angels, not the beat of the land.

Romans 12:2
 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Colossians 2:8
 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

Titus 2:12
 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

James 1:27
 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

James 4:4
 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

1 John 2:15
 [ Do Not Love the World ] Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.


*I just won't allow myself to change the music I listen to or sing just because it's the lastest fade.
I don't need it.  I don't believe the church needs it.
Just me though.


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## formula1

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> *I just won't allow myself to change the music I listen to or sing just because it's the lastest fade.
> I don't need it.  I don't believe the church needs it.
> Just me though.



I was just messing with you, BTW. But the truth is, it is not the beat that is evil, but the message contained on the song.

I wouldn't ask you to change what you enjoy or to follow a fad for the sake of the fad.   Actually, I'm not asking you to change anything really.

I would ask you only to lead those in your charge toward the image of Christ and not the image of what RonnieT thinks Christ is. I know your goal is to do just that.  I also know that you do have to get out of your comfort zone to reach some from time to time, whether you want to admit it or not.  

God Bless!


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## Ronnie T

formula1 said:


> I was just messing with you, BTW. But the truth is, it is not the beat that is evil, but the message contained on the song.
> 
> I wouldn't ask you to change what you enjoy or to follow a fad for the sake of the fad.   Actually, I'm not asking you to change anything really.
> 
> I would ask you only to lead those in your charge toward the image of Christ and not the image of what RonnieT thinks Christ is. I know your goal is to do just that.  I also know that you do have to get out of your comfort zone to reach some from time to time, whether you want to admit it or not.
> 
> God Bless!




I need to reach the lost of the world with the gospel of Christ.  
For a person to come to Christ, they need to leave their comfort zone.  Not the other way around.  The world is what they're familiar with, but the gospel can't be made to look like the world in order to make it more palletable.
Rap music is of the world.  Invented by the world.  The ways of Christ are not the ways of the world.  In and of itself, there's nothing wrong with rap, but if a Christian has such a connection with the world that they feel the need to praise God with the most current 'style' that the world is listening to I fear they've become to friendly with the world.  Christians today aren't inventing Christian rap for the purpose of evangelism.  They're doing it because they've heard something of the world and they want to be part of it.
It isn't just the words!  It's about friendship with the world.  It's about continually changing what's appropriate so that I can look more like and sound more like the world.  And I ain't of the world.

Christian rap.   Christian disco.    Christian beer.  Christian rock.  

1 Corinthians 14:15
 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

Ephesians 5:19
 speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord,

Colossians 3:16
 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts.


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## formula1

*Re:*

'Christians today aren't inventing Christian rap for the purpose of evangelism. They're doing it because they've heard something of the world and they want to be part of it.'

This is your opinion and 100 % false! You can verify its falsehood in many inner city ministries going on right now. I still respect your opinion, yet on this subject you fall into the category of 'teaching the traditions of men' as the gospel of Christ. I agree with your niece!!!

1 Timothy 4:4 
For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.


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## Ronnie T

Well I do have to admit that I'm and ol' fuddy.
I guess we need to make the church look as much like the world as we can....... you know, for the sake of our ministry.
I guess Christian rap is a far cry from a gangster pimp slapping around his whor e, or killing a cop.  I think it's the image of rap that I find too offensive to associate Christ with.


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## formula1

*Re:*

Quite frankly, I have yet to hear Christian rap in a church worship service myself though I bet someone has it.  It yields itself better to street evangelism anyway as 'bubblegum'.  I think you know what I mean.

I will admit that my own church does alot of contemporary worship music and I personally relate to that very well. But then again I like 'Beautiful Savior' and 'Great is Thy Faithfulness' too. I am fairly diversified as long as it's all about Jesus.


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## Inthegarge

The only music I have a problem with is music that is not Doctrinely correct..... Don't believe Momma teaching Angels to sing is correct.. They have been singing ever since they were created... Being an old Rocker skews my opinion thou....................


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## BIGJOHNA

God has given us all our own individual Talent(s). To some he gave the ability to stand in front of a congregation and teach others about the power of God Almighty and the love of Jesus Christ. To some he gave them an ability to be a carpenter where with raw materials such as brick and lumber they could construct a house of worship. To some he gave the ability to become an artist who can paint pictures of the likeness of Christ. To some,the ability write music and lyrics that declare Jesus is the son of God and thru him we can have a relationship with God! We have all been given different talents.....by God. Mine is different than anyone else's.  Take a moment and read Matthew 25:14 thru 25:30 The parable of the talents ..............._Seriously_, read it. So first off, if you read this and belief that Jesus is concerned with money...you're wrong! As I read it Jesus tells me we are all different with different talents some have been given more than others. The talents of which we have been given " by God"are to be used and not hidden!! In reference to the OP "What do you think about Christian rappers" Well, I think it's awesome!! No! I dont listen to rap music. But it is my believe that these Christian rappers are using the talents that God gave them. If these Christian Rappers are sincere in bringing those who are not saved to Christ thru thier lyrics.....then who among us is righteous to judge the power of God? Not I!!


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## Huntinfool

I'm glad I have been at Indian Springs this week and not reading this thread.  

You guys know where I stand on this so I won't belabor it.

I will say, though, that sitting in that 125 year old tabernacle and staying in a cottage that is just as old and singing the old hyms is very refreshing.  The preaching has been just as refreshing and the Spirit has moved mightily this week.

I will also say that all those things and particularly a few messages that I've listened to have only served to confirm that my position on this issue is godly and correct.


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## Gabassmaster

BIGJOHNA said:


> God has given us all our own individual Talent(s). To some he gave the ability to stand in front of a congregation and teach others about the power of God Almighty and the love of Jesus Christ. To some he gave them an ability to be a carpenter where with raw materials such as brick and lumber they could construct a house of worship. To some he gave the ability to become an artist who can paint pictures of the likeness of Christ. To some,the ability write music and lyrics that declare Jesus is the son of God and thru him we can have a relationship with God! We have all been given different talents.....by God. Mine is different than anyone else's.  Take a moment and read Matthew 25:14 thru 25:30 The parable of the talents ..............._Seriously_, read it. So first off, if you read this and belief that Jesus is concerned with money...you're wrong! As I read it Jesus tells me we are all different with different talents some have been given more than others. The talents of which we have been given " by God"are to be used and not hidden!! In reference to the OP "What do you think about Christian rappers" Well, I think it's awesome!! No! I dont listen to rap music. But it is my believe that these Christian rappers are using the talents that God gave them. If these Christian Rappers are sincere in bringing those who are not saved to Christ thru thier lyrics.....then who among us is righteous to judge the power of God? Not I!!



I consider burping your ABC's more a talent than rapping do you think people should burp the gospel???


----------



## Jeff Phillips

I am going to Camp Meeting Saturday. There will be some Blue Grass Gospel.

Is that acceptable in ya'lls eyes


----------



## Ronnie T

Jeff Phillips said:


> I am going to Camp Meeting Saturday. There will be some Blue Grass Gospel.
> 
> Is that acceptable in ya'lls eyes




It is in mine.

There's a lot of difference in the history of rap and that of blue grass.

Bluegrass is wrapped around a Christian heritage.
Rap is wrapped around drugs, pimps, and various other criminals.

That's just me.


----------



## grouper throat

So my question on the subject is, can someone name a good example/artist of Christian rap? I'll listen to it and give my opinion then. My 56 yr old father listens to some contemporary Christian music so in my eyes anything is possible; even myself liking the Christian rap music even though mainstream rap carries a negative stigma.


----------



## Huntinfool

Ronnie T said:


> It is in mine.
> 
> There's a lot of difference in the history of rap and that of blue grass.
> 
> Bluegrass is wrapped around a Christian heritage.
> Rap is wrapped around drugs, pimps, and various other criminals.
> 
> That's just me.



Drug dealers, pimps and other various criminals who all desperately need salvation...and who HATE...I mean HATE bluegrass, gospel music and hymns.

They hate that music, not because of the content, but because of the style of the music.  The content, as long as it contains biblical truth, is not the issue for them.

You go tell them that they have to take a shower before they can come in the church...so they can take a bath.

If you're going to go out into the world....sometimes you have to get a little of the world on you...no?


----------



## stringmusic

Huntinfool said:


> Drug dealers, pimps and other various criminals who all desperately need salvation...and who HATE...I mean HATE bluegrass, gospel music and hymns.
> 
> They hate that music, not because of the content, but because of the style of the music.  The content, as long as it contains biblical truth, is not the issue for them.
> 
> You go tell them that they have to take a shower before they can come in the church...so they can take a bath.
> 
> If you're going to go out into the world....sometimes you have to get a little of the world *on* you...no?



I agree %100. And I would assume you used the word "on" rather than "in" which is the key word in your post!


----------



## dcjones

We had a christian rapper from Toccoa called B-Shoc do a service in our church. I did not really enjoy it, but I could not find anything wrong with his lyrics or his presentation of the gospel or his alter call for people to receive salvation. If the 7 people that came forward produce christian fruit to confirm their proclamation of salvation, then I will just have to get over my opinion of his style of ministry.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



grouper throat said:


> So my question on the subject is, can someone name a good example/artist of Christian rap? I'll listen to it and give my opinion then. My 56 yr old father listens to some contemporary Christian music so in my eyes anything is possible; even myself liking the Christian rap music even though mainstream rap carries a negative stigma.



Lecrae is one of the best I know.  Also, KJ-52 is good too, though some of his songs are just fun songs and some are serious.

They are both posted on the subject on page 1 of this subject.  Go give a listen if you like.


----------



## Turkey Trax

Michael F. Gray said:


> At the risk of offending some, let me be brutally honest. Rap music and CHRISTIAN don't belong in the same sentance. Years ago Dr. Bob Jones,Sr. made the statment,  "a PRAYING knee and a dancing foot are not found on the same leg". It's time for God's people to come out from among them and be seperate. A man that won't stand for something will fall for anything. Perhaps that's the real problem.



LOL....wow, so you're gonna quote the Doc Jones and then quote Aaron Tippins country music song in the same post and use it as your point. hilarious. so you personally dont like rap so its more a personal issue. we see your point.


----------



## formula1

Jeff Phillips said:


> I am going to Camp Meeting Saturday. There will be some Blue Grass Gospel.
> 
> Is that acceptable in ya'lls eyes



Sound great to me! Jump, shout and praise the Lord to the fiddle and the mandolin.


----------



## Jeff Phillips

formula1 said:


> Sound great to me! Jump, shout and praise the Lord to the fiddle and the mandolin.



We will

Eating tomato pie before the preaching and homemade ice cream after too!


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> Drug dealers, pimps and other various criminals who all desperately need salvation...and who HATE...I mean HATE bluegrass, gospel music and hymns.
> 
> They hate that music, not because of the content, but because of the style of the music.  The content, as long as it contains biblical truth, is not the issue for them.
> 
> You go tell them that they have to take a shower before they can come in the church...so they can take a bath.
> 
> If you're going to go out into the world....sometimes you have to get a little of the world on you...no?



Are we talking about rap used in the inner city to bring folks to Christ?  I thought it was being sold in music stores and taught to our young people?


----------



## Ronnie T

stringmusic said:


> I agree %100. And I would assume you used the word "on" rather than "in" which is the key word in your post!



That's my point entirely.

Listen to the way the rapper distorts his voice and words in the first song(whatever you call it) of this thread.
They are emulating its originators.


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> Drug dealers, pimps and other various criminals who all desperately need salvation...and who HATE...I mean HATE bluegrass, gospel music and hymns.
> 
> They hate that music, not because of the content, but because of the style of the music.  The content, as long as it contains biblical truth, is not the issue for them.
> 
> You go tell them that they have to take a shower before they can come in the church...so they can take a bath.
> 
> If you're going to go out into the world....sometimes you have to get a little of the world on you...no?



Don't even try to make this into a missionary tool.
Christian rap is being brought into southern churches and communities because youth ministers are coming in teaching it to your young people.  And you are buying them from the music shops because its a way to grab some spirit and world at the same time.
You're stepping out of your comfort zone in order to embrace a category of music(?) that use to be foreign to you.  I presume.
If you're a young adult, whe knows, you might have grown up listening to rap at your high school dances.

Again, in my oppinion, it belongs in the concert halls, but not at youth devotions.


----------



## CAL

Ronnie T said:


> Again, in my opinion, it belongs in the concert halls, but not at youth devotions.



In my opinion,it belongs no where.It isn't music,I don't know what it is.I know,I am chairman of the "old fuddies".My grand kids love that what ever stuff.


----------



## Six million dollar ham

Ronnie T said:


> It is in mine.
> 
> There's a lot of difference in the history of rap and that of blue grass.
> 
> Bluegrass is wrapped around a Christian heritage.
> Rap is _wrapped around_ drugs, pimps, and various other criminals.
> 
> That's just me.



Bluegrass is also arguably _wrapped around_ infidelity, murder, drunkenness, tax evasion, drugs, and war if you like.  I feel certain people in earlier days would shudder to think the good word is being spread through such a medium.


----------



## Gabassmaster

i wonder what Jesus would say to these "christian rappers" who have their pants below their knees and they are bringing in a culture that generally is based around murder, adultry, cussing, fornication, and all kinds of sin and trying to bring that ion the church and say they are "glorifying God with their (talent)"


----------



## Huntinfool

If they are bringing in that culture, then they are not glorifying God, now are they?

Looking like a rapper and acting like one are two entirely different things.  

Let me ask you guys this.  Let's play hypothetical for a minute...

I honestly don't know who the current rap studs are.  But I did know Snoop Dogg back in the day and THAT dude is ROUGH!

Let's say that Snoop is radically saved today, turns from his former life of drugs and all kinds of bad stuff.  Let's say he is transformed and becomes a deep deep servant of Christ.

That man holds great influence over literally millions and millions of young men and women all over the world.  Let's say he continues being a rapper and begins to write raps that are word for word chapters out of the book of Psalms and millions of copies of that album are sold and thousands upon thousands of "gang culture" kids come to Christ because someone they revere did so and then poured Christ's love on them.

That would be a bad thing, right?  I mean, he does wear his pants low and is rapping Psalms in that same style of his.  That's a bad thing, right?  Jesus wouldn't approve of that at all.

I'm sure you're right.

Look, I'm 36 now.  I'm too old for that stuff.  It doesn't appeal to me anymore and I don't "get it".  Christian rappers do not bring in a culture other than Christ.  There is no murder, adultery, cussing or fornication in thier music nor in their behavior.  

If you read "Old Rugged Cross" from a hymn book, it reads exactly the same as "Old Rugged Cross" if it were rapped.  Funny thing about words....they read the same regardless of the medium they are on.

The message does not change.  If it does, we have a problem.


----------



## Gabassmaster

Huntinfool said:


> If they are bringing in that culture, then they are not glorifying God, now are they?
> 
> Looking like a rapper and acting like one are two entirely different things.
> 
> Let me ask you guys this.  Let's play hypothetical for a minute...
> 
> I honestly don't know who the current rap studs are.  But I did know Snoop Dogg back in the day and THAT dude is ROUGH!
> 
> Let's say that Snoop is radically saved today, turns from his former life of drugs and all kinds of bad stuff.  Let's say he is transformed and becomes a deep deep servant of Christ.
> 
> That man holds great influence over literally millions and millions of young men and women all over the world.  Let's say he continues being a rapper and begins to write raps that are word for word chapters out of the book of Psalms and millions of copies of that album are sold and thousands upon thousands of "gang culture" kids come to Christ because someone they revere did so and then poured Christ's love on them.
> 
> That would be a bad thing, right?  I mean, he does wear his pants low and is rapping Psalms in that same style of his.  That's a bad thing, right?  Jesus wouldn't approve of that at all.
> 
> I'm sure you're right.
> 
> Look, I'm 36 now.  I'm too old for that stuff.  It doesn't appeal to me anymore and I don't "get it".  Christian rappers do not bring in a culture other than Christ.  There is no murder, adultery, cussing or fornication in thier music nor in their behavior.
> 
> If you read "Old Rugged Cross" from a hymn book, it reads exactly the same as "Old Rugged Cross" if it were rapped.  Funny thing about words....they read the same regardless of the medium they are on.
> 
> The message does not change.  If it does, we have a problem.



could i burp the song ole rugged cross since the words do not change and it still be ok to do in church???


----------



## Huntinfool

You tell me man.  Tell me biblically.  What do you think?


The heart is a hard thing to read.  What I do know is that we are commanded to do ALL things to the glory of God.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



Gabassmaster said:


> i wonder what Jesus would say to these "christian rappers" who have their pants below their knees and they are bringing in a culture that generally is based around murder, adultry, cussing, fornication, and all kinds of sin and trying to bring that ion the church and say they are "glorifying God with their (talent)"



Matthew 12
33 "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. 36I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Luke 14:23
And the master said to the servant, 'Go out to the highways and hedges and compel people to come in, that my house may be filled.

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


----------



## Huntinfool

I was listening to a pastor the other day while at Indian Springs and he made this comment about the church he pastors currently (I'm paraphrasing).

"Before I arrived at this church and we began to slowly change the culture, this church was known in our community more for what it was AGAINST...than what is was for."

It's an epidemic in our local churches.


----------



## StriperAddict

I'll get  for this but here goes...

Back in my pre-faith years, I started becomming interested in matters of the bible by playing the 'cult' classic, "Jesus Christ Superstar" (1970's...ish), yep, with all it's unbiblical overtones, etc.
Even at that point, I was tossing out the bathwater.  It took me a few years later with some good solid witness from the brethren and some real studying to see clearly who Jesus was and what He came to do for me and the world.

If it hasn't been said in this thread yet... God can and will use anything to start the heart on course for Him.  Once you have been found by His mercy and love, the process is not what you cling to anymore, and in some cases, you may find it benificial to your faith to abandon the 'process' completly. 

I've met some pretty hard core rockers who have found faith in Christ and have put down their ax (term for elec. guitar), and some who have not. Either way, I'm happy to call them my brothers.  

They are simply His sheep in wolves' clothing.


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> If they are bringing in that culture, then they are not glorifying God, now are they?
> 
> Looking like a rapper and acting like one are two entirely different things.
> 
> Let me ask you guys this.  Let's play hypothetical for a minute...
> 
> I honestly don't know who the current rap studs are.  But I did know Snoop Dogg back in the day and THAT dude is ROUGH!
> 
> Let's say that Snoop is radically saved today, turns from his former life of drugs and all kinds of bad stuff.  Let's say he is transformed and becomes a deep deep servant of Christ.
> 
> That man holds great influence over literally millions and millions of young men and women all over the world.  Let's say he continues being a rapper and begins to write raps that are word for word chapters out of the book of Psalms and millions of copies of that album are sold and thousands upon thousands of "gang culture" kids come to Christ because someone they revere did so and then poured Christ's love on them.
> 
> That would be a bad thing, right?  I mean, he does wear his pants low and is rapping Psalms in that same style of his.  That's a bad thing, right?  Jesus wouldn't approve of that at all.
> 
> I'm sure you're right.
> 
> Look, I'm 36 now.  I'm too old for that stuff.  It doesn't appeal to me anymore and I don't "get it".  Christian rappers do not bring in a culture other than Christ.  There is no murder, adultery, cussing or fornication in thier music nor in their behavior.
> 
> If you read "Old Rugged Cross" from a hymn book, it reads exactly the same as "Old Rugged Cross" if it were rapped.  Funny thing about words....they read the same regardless of the medium they are on.
> 
> The message does not change.  If it does, we have a problem.



Now you're talking.  Personally, I'd love to learn that Snoop had become a child of God and his life was starting new.  And I might even listen to some of the words of his raps as God changed his heart and Snoop used his rap to bring others to Christ.
But that has nothing to do with why the youth department at the 1st Bapt church in Athens, Ga teaches it's children rap music?
There are many more beautiful and wholesome ways, that they already know, to worship God through the singing of spiritual songs.

I still say the singing(if it's singing) of rap is doodling with the world.


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> I was listening to a pastor the other day while at Indian Springs and he made this comment about the church he pastors currently (I'm paraphrasing).
> 
> "Before I arrived at this church and we began to slowly change the culture, this church was known in our community more for what it was AGAINST...than what is was for."
> 
> It's an epidemic in our local churches.



I certainly understand where that pastor is coming from with his statement.  
There are far too many exclusionary churches.  They sit alone on some back street and they totally reject everything around them except themselves.

But, there is also just the opposite.  The feeling that anything goes, if you call it praising God or claim that it's a 'gift' from God.

The mind of a Christian isn't suppose to be driven by the things that the people of the world enjoy.

Again, as I said, Christian rap is another indication of the church looking to and accepting the latest fad of the world.  At least in my view.


----------



## stringmusic

Huntinfool said:


> I was listening to a pastor the other day while at Indian Springs and he made this comment about the church he pastors currently (I'm paraphrasing).
> 
> "Before I arrived at this church and we began to slowly change the culture, *this church was known in our community more for what it was AGAINST...than what is was for."*It's an epidemic in our local churches.



Waaaaaaaay to many church's in this world are the exact same way. I have heard my pastor say those exact words before talking about the people of Christ. The cooks at Westboro ring a loud bell. I know that most church's aren't quite as bad but it's there none the less. This is the EXCACT opposite of Jesus's time on this earth.


----------



## Huntinfool

> But, there is also just the opposite. The feeling that anything goes, if you call it praising God or claim that it's a 'gift' from God.



Totally agree.  But you should not assume that all churches that go a little more edgy than you on worship style don't preach biblical truth from the pulpit and don't hold strong to it in their congregations.

Rap, whether you enjoy listening to it or not, is a form of expression.  We are given that ability so that we can worship our God.

It's all a matter of the heart.  If the heart is worshipful, the delivery is of no consequence IMO.  I cannot find a biblical argument to the contrary.


----------



## tween_the_banks

Sterlo58 said:


> Rap is not music. I don't care to hear it regardless of the message.


Look up Sage Francis,  Buck 65, Astronautalis, then tell me rap isn't music.
Who do you listen to? Montgomery Gentry..
Jason Aldean...these country jokes that are basically N'sync in cowboy hats who have sold themselves to the record companies because they were blessed with a decent voice and face. 100% true music is rarely heard on the radio or heard on the television. Its below the radar. Check out some underground artist before you drop a line like "rap isn't music". Because that my friend is a quite a joke.
.


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> ... Christian rap is another indication of the church looking to and accepting the latest fad of the world.



I read a comment on another website a couple of years ago that I thought was spot on.  I'm still kicking myself for not writing it down, but here's a very close approximation:

"Whatever is popular in the world today, seven years from now the church will produce a lame copy of it."

I think Christian rap is one example of that.  Other examples include Christian heavy metal, Christian motorcycle gangs, Christian tattoos, etc.  We just don't do a good job of imitating the world, IMO.


----------



## BIGJOHNA

Gabassmaster said:


> I consider burping your ABC's more a talent than rapping do you think people should burp the gospel???



Not necessarily. However!!!!! If it is helpful to the process of building others up that it may benefit those who listen and indoing so save those from eternal ****ation so that they may accept Christ Jesus as their Savior and recieve grace from God so that those who need him may be set free from sin and become a slave to Almighty God, that they may learn fear God,  that they may learn to serve God and love others as Christ has instructed US to do....... 
Well then Buuuuurrrrrpppp, burrrrp,, burp, buuurrrrrrrrrpp,, burrp , buuuuuurrrppp, buurrrp, burrpppp, burrrp, buurrrrrpppp, burrrrp, buuuuuurrrrrrrrrpppp buurp.
 **That in english translation = Acts 7:27
“But the man who was mistreating the other pushed Moses aside and said, ‘Who made YOU ruler and judge over us?

Peace to you brother! Big John loves you!!


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

Thanks, Big John! Jesus loves even the babes!


----------



## BIGJOHNA

Gabassmaster said:


> i wonder what Jesus would say to these "christian rappers" who have their pants below their knees and they are bringing in a culture that generally is based around murder, adultry, cussing, fornication, and all kinds of sin and trying to bring that ion the church and say they are "glorifying God with their (talent)"



I'd have to imagine it would be something like this " for those of you without sin, pick up your rock and be first to throw your stone" ! Or maybe it would be " whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned". Ooooooh ohhh I know, I know ...he'd probably say "Welcome you sheep who are not of this pen. It is I who have brought you so that you too shall hear and listen to my voice, and therefore we all shall become one flock lead by ONE SHEPHERD " Quite possibly he'd say " if the world hates you, keep in mind They hated me first"

So yeah, I bet thats exactly what my Lord Christ Jesus would say to those awful sinners. 
Hallelujah!!!! Hallelujah!!! Hallelujah!!!! Thank you Lord!! Thank you for your mercy you have shown me! Thank you Lord for saving the awful sinner for whom I once was!!!!!!!!!!!
Whooooooooo!!! God is good son! GOD IS GOOD!!!!!!!


----------



## satchmo

I seldom get into these discussions, but after reading some of this thread I will.
Rap is relatively new and not well accepted by some people. But if it reaches more ears, Rap on. I read one post that ask "are we going to fall into every new fad etc". I would hope that every Church would embrace every effort to reach as many people as they can.
It is new to the Church, but so is air conditioning, microphones, etc. No need to fight about it. Even Jesus said that we all worship differently,but that is ok.


----------



## wbwright

If because someone looks a little different and sings to a different beat than someone else's "preferred style" their worship becomes unworthy and of the world and not of God, we can stop wondering why non believers classify Christians as closed minded, self righteous and "cliquish"...it's because we have become just that. 

A Christian rapper can walk in a room and share the gospel of Christ with a whole group of people that wouldn't give my banjo toting, boot wearin, redneck lookin, country talkin self 2 seconds before they tossed me back out the way i came in. Jesus himself broke bread with tax collectors, shared water with fornicators, defended the adultress and allowed the prostitute to wash his feet. If the lyrics are biblically correct...the gospel is being shared...and God is being glorified!


----------



## Jim Thompson

why would anyone care as long as it helps bring more folks into your inner fold and does it in a way that helps those folks be comfortable and want to stay?


----------



## Ronnie T

So, if I understand it correctly, Christian rap is used only to bring folks into the fold of Christ?
People who are already Christians don't listen to it and do the beebop along with it's beat?


----------



## mtnwoman

Most kids want to be cool, ya know? Kids are gonna listen to rap if they want to, some way some how. So at least if they are gonna listen to it, it might as well be Christian. Do I necessarily like it?...no. I do like contemporary Christian music along with the old hymns...Old Rugged Cross, or I'll Fly Away ( and I'll clog to that).

I like Toby Mack (sp). My daughter and son in law both in their 40's took my grandchildren to see that show, they are 8 and 9 yr old girls. They had to wear ear plugs, but my daughter said it was like a jubilee and she was glad to see so many kids there enjoying Christian music on a modern day 'note'.

Yep there's a lot of devil music out there, ya know satan was the band leader before he got kicked outta heaven and rules the air waves on earth. So if a drop of anything gets thru to our kids Christianwise, I'm not against it.

Teach your children which way to go....but you can't force them. If my granddaughter who is 21 yrs old was listening to Christian rap, I'd probably be thankful she wasn't listening to gangsta rap...I say that because she loves that gangsta rap crapola...it makes me want to jump out of the car window.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> So, if I understand it correctly, Christian rap is used only to bring folks into the fold of Christ?
> People who are already Christians don't listen to it and do the beebop along with it's beat?



Do you use the same bait with every kind of fish you're trying to catch? and/or can you catch every kind of fish, fresh water, salt water with the same bait?


----------



## mtnwoman

I don't wanna gain the whole world and lose my soul...Toby Mack.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFPe7LQaPHo&feature=related

Lyrics in English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ec6xT9ixGE


----------



## KissMyBass

mtnwoman said:


> Do you use the same bait with every kind of fish you're trying to catch? and/or can you catch every kind of fish, fresh water, salt water with the same bait?



X2


----------



## mtnwoman

Gabassmaster said:


> i wonder what Jesus would say to these "christian rappers" who have their pants below their knees and they are bringing in a culture that generally is based around murder, adultry, cussing, fornication, and all kinds of sin and trying to bring that ion the church and say they are "glorifying God with their (talent)"



Probably the same thing I say to 'em....hey your pants are falling down pull them up....embarrasses my 21 yr old granddaughter to death.

My youngest granddaughter who is a little chunk lets her pants come down...I look at her and say...'hey erin, just so no to crack'...she pulls her pants up...she's 8.


----------



## StriperAddict

mtnwoman said:


> My youngest granddaughter who is a little chunk lets her pants come down...I look at her and say...'hey erin, just so no to crack'...she pulls her pants up...she's 8.


Now that's funny 'n precious right there !!


----------



## ambush80

It think Jesus would rap. If he was hangin' out with some homeys that needed saving who liked rap, I think he might rap.


----------



## fishndinty

ambush80 said:


> It think Jesus would rap. If he was hangin' out with some homeys that needed saving who liked rap, I think he might rap.



I agree.  I also think Paul did the equivalent when he lectured at the Areopagus.  He made reference to the gods commemorated there and talked about their "god without a name" to bring God to them in a way that was relevant for them.


----------



## Ronnie T

fishndinty said:


> I agree.  I also think Paul did the equivalent when he lectured at the Areopagus.  He made reference to the gods commemorated there and talked about their "god without a name" to bring God to them in a way that was relevant for them.



Jesus didn't go to the lost singing and rapping.
He went to lift them up.

And Paul might have rapped with the folks in Athens if it would have helped in teaching Christ to them.
But he certainly would not have then gone to the 1st Bapt church in Corinth and rapped to them......
So why are youth programs pushing Christian rap on their young people who are already Christians???????

Someone answer me that.
Isn't it a love for the world?  The love of modern music trends?  It has to be.  It can't be any other reason.


----------



## Ronnie T

ambush80 said:


> It think Jesus would rap. If he was hangin' out with some homeys that needed saving who liked rap, I think he might rap.



Well well.
An atheist now has an opinion on what Jesus would do.


----------



## Ronnie T

Acts 26:
27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” 
30 When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.


----------



## formula1

Ronnie T said:


> Jesus didn't go to the lost singing and rapping.
> He went to lift them up.
> 
> And Paul might have rapped with the folks in Athens if it would have helped in teaching Christ to them.
> But he certainly would not have then gone to the 1st Bapt church in Corinth and rapped to them......
> So why are youth programs pushing Christian rap on their young people who are already Christians???????
> 
> Someone answer me that.
> Isn't it a love for the world?  The love of modern music trends?  It has to be.  It can't be any other reason.



Jesus met them where they were wherever that happened to be.  Times are different now and meeting folks where they are requires something quite different today.

In the same way, churches relate to the youth in their communities, reaching out to them in a way they can relate to.  It is a different time, but to get them to the point where they sing Beautiful Savior or The Old Rugged Cross, you've gotta show that you will go the mile you don't want to go and compel them to come in.  Young people are very intelligent, if you won't relate to them, they won't hear what you have to say.  It is just that way. 

Further, there may be many young people in a church youth program that are Christians, but they also want to reach out to youth in their community.   If you get a few and close a door, how genuine is that? Disciples making disciples giving what others need to reach the lost.  That's what this thing is all about.  It's not about me and what I like. It's about changing lives.  It's about a love for those in the world, to pull them out of the world, by reaching to where they are. 

It's not that hard for me to see, because I was one who was reached in this manner.  I understand now the value of removing my desires and my wishes for the sake of one who might hear. It is worth it to leave the 99 and reach for the 1. Always!

I will agree with you that if the music is more important than the Savior, we will have failed in our endeavor.

On a personal note, I allow my own son to listen to any music that is Christian in its message.  I screen the artists, even going to the point of researching their lifestyle and their hearts for Christ as best as I can. Further, I look at the soundness and the depth of the message compared to the Word of God. Further, I talk to my spiritual leaders and ask them if they know anything negative of these people or their music. If all checks out, we will listen together and we will together say 'yes' or 'no' about each song. We have turned down many songs and several artist by doing this.

He loves Christian rap, but also enjoys alot of worship music (contemporary in nature).  He even likes things like 'Jesus paid it all' or 'Great is thy Faithfulness'.  And we read scriptures regularly.  The truth is he simply loves Jesus. And I will refuse always to kill his love for his Savior with my selfish legalism. But on the other hand, I will also be firm that the standards are high. We are in the world, but not of the world and we are intent upon keeping it that way.

God Bless!


----------



## Ronnie T

formula1 said:


> Jesus met them where they were wherever that happened to be.  Times are different now and meeting folks where they are requires something quite different today.
> 
> In the same way, churches relate to the youth in their communities, reaching out to them in a way they can relate to.  It is a different time, but to get them to the point where they sing Beautiful Savior or The Old Rugged Cross, you've gotta show that you will go the mile you don't want to go and compel them to come in.  Young people are very intelligent, if you won't relate to them, they won't hear what you have to say.  It is just that way.
> 
> Further, there may be many young people in a church youth program that are Christians, but they also want to reach out to youth in their community.   If you get a few and close a door, how genuine is that? Disciples making disciples giving what others need to reach the lost.  That's what this thing is all about.  It's not about me and what I like. It's about changing lives.  It's about a love for those in the world, to pull them out of the world, by reaching to where they are.
> 
> It's not that hard for me to see, because I was one who was reached in this manner.  I understand now the value of removing my desires and my wishes for the sake of one who might hear. It is worth it to leave the 99 and reach for the 1. Always!
> 
> I will agree with you that if the music is more important than the Savior, we will have failed in our endeavor.
> 
> On a personal note, I allow my own son to listen to any music that is Christian in its message.  I screen the artists, even going to the point of researching their lifestyle and their hearts for Christ as best as I can. Further, I look at the soundness and the depth of the message compared to the Word of God. Further, I talk to my spiritual leaders and ask them if they know anything negative of these people or their music. If all checks out, we will listen together and we will together say 'yes' or 'no' about each song. We have turned down many songs and several artist by doing this.
> 
> He loves Christian rap, but also enjoys alot of worship music (contemporary in nature).  He even likes things like 'Jesus paid it all' or 'Great is thy Faithfulness'.  And we read scriptures regularly.  The truth is he simply loves Jesus. And I will refuse always to kill his love for his Savior with my selfish legalism. But on the other hand, I will also be firm that the standards are high. We are in the world, but not of the world and we are intent upon keeping it that way.
> 
> God Bless!




Do you know if Christian rap was his first exposure to rap music or not?


----------



## Ronnie T

Here's a cute one I just found.
Be sure and read the comments below the screen.

http://www.dangerousminds.net/comments/christian_rap_version_of_baby_got_back/


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> Do you know if Christian rap was his first exposure to rap music or not?



It was not his first exposure thanks to my adult sons.  They got a earful for putting it on my computer and some of the songs ended up on his MP3. I was not happy. My older sons were told to get rid of it and they did.  I can be very intimidating, even though one of them is a Marine.

He has heard the 'I Like Big Bibles' spoof that you posted also. He thinks its funny, but we don't have it as part of his music he listens to (no spiritual depth). He did not have the pleasure to hear the original, but I did. I really don't like the remake, and knowing what I know of the original, I think these guys could have picked a better song to spoof, IMHO. I really don't like takeoffs from originals songs, I like originals and that's one thing we strive to find.

Funny, he's listening right now to a song on his MP3, called Don't Waste Your Life. The song is based on 
Luke 12:15-21. And yes it is a Rap song! Just thought I'd let you know.


----------



## Ronnie T

I have just learned of a man by the name of Lacrae.
I wish someone would have pointed him out to me.

Check him out:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lecrae

It sounds like his Christian rap has touched a lot of lives.
That his raps are like Bible lessons rather than songs.
That he preaches rather than entertain.

I think I love him and the work he's doing for the Lord.

I might put out me a rap song pretty soon.


----------



## formula1

RonnieT:

See Post #26.  You're made an amazing transformation!

Your niece would be proud!  Have a great Lord's day!

Drew(my 10 yr old) will post a scripture in the morning!

f1


----------



## mtnwoman

formula1 said:


> Jesus met them where they were wherever that happened to be.



Very thing that popped into my head, too.

We don't have to wear sandals and walk in desert sand, and wear long garments etc etc. If we thought we needed to copy Jesus exactly shouldn't we do all that. He said to fish....so go fishing, you'll be surprised what you catch and what you might have to deal with, with some folks. 

I know I was an old dirty rag rock'n roll queen when someone came along and picked me up and talked to me and I'm thankful someone launched out into the deep on my behalf and he was a black man, full of the spirit, and I'm pretty sure he'd never been to a rock concert or club. He never dissed me either. Jesus sent him to fetch me and he did.


----------



## Ronnie T

I listened.  I did not listen to it until tonight.

I thought it was powerful.

I'll be listening to some more of his Bible lessons.

Now I'm going to crawl back into my hole and hide.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> I have just learned of a man by the name of Lacrae.
> I wish someone would have pointed him out to me.
> 
> Check him out:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lecrae
> 
> It sounds like his Christian rap has touched a lot of lives.
> That his raps are like Bible lessons rather than songs.
> That he preaches rather than entertain.
> 
> I think I love him and the work he's doing for the Lord.
> 
> I might put out me a rap song pretty soon.



I'm a rapper, wanna here my song? I sing this to my granddaughters and their friends...lol

I'm a rappin' granny, and I'll tell you what
I'm a rappin' granny, and you don't know squat.
I'm a rappin' granny, and I love you so.
I'm a rappin' granny, even when I say NO!


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Here's a cute one I just found.
> Be sure and read the comments below the screen.
> 
> http://www.dangerousminds.net/comments/christian_rap_version_of_baby_got_back/



That is cute. 

See Christians can have fun with things. Unfortunately a lot of people (including me at one time) think that if you become a Christian there is no more fun. That saddens me, because I know where they are coming from and that makes me wanna hook'em, ya know?


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> Now I'm going to crawl back into my hole and hide.



You better not. Your advocate position has been wonderful in helping us think about ' testing the spirits' all the more and making sure the things we do bring Glory to God. You can be assured that it has done that to me.

God Bless and good night!


----------



## Ronnie T

Check this one.


----------



## mtnwoman

Gabassmaster said:


> could i burp the song ole rugged cross since the words do not change and it still be ok to do in church???



You could try it, let me know if you gather up a following...


----------



## Ronnie T

Hey, how you like my new signature?

.


----------



## mtnwoman

Yay Ronnie!! That's a great song you posted.

We gotta take our children back!!


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Hey, how you like my new signature?
> 
> .



It's cool.

You need to make up a little rap song.

God's Property has some great tunes, too.

Like, Stomp. Not exactly rap but makes you wanna dance, be joyful and praise the Lord.

This is a cute version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNkkJFNmQJk&feature=related

.


----------



## ambush80

Ronnie T said:


> Well well.
> An atheist now has an opinion on what Jesus would do.



I don't know nothin' bout nothin'.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> That is cute.
> 
> See Christians can have fun with things. Unfortunately a lot of people (including me at one time) think that if you become a Christian there is no more fun. That saddens me, because I know where they are coming from and that makes me wanna hook'em, ya know?



Christianity is the epitomy of true living.


----------



## gtparts

It is sad and more than a little disturbing to know that some here cannot (perhaps, will not) distinguish between substance and style. 

That Christian principles, theology and doctrine may be delivered in a particular style, absent the context of drugs, murder, sexual misconduct, etc., from which that style originally appeared, should be a matter of praise. It is one more tool to spread the Gospel.

Before a segment of any culture will listen to the Gospel, that group must see relevance. Preaching in English to some secluded and obscure tribe in New Guinea was pointless until we could show them the love of Christ and speak to them in a language they understood.

So it is with many generational differences. If we will not leave the comfort of our Sunday pews (and the familiarity of our preferred musical styles) and engage others "where they live", we are no more useful to the Kingdom of God than the pharisees who passed by the robbed and beaten Jewish sojourner on the other side of the road.

Jesus clearly understood the heart of the Samaritan...... and those who avoided getting involved.

Who can claim the title "Christian" and turn their backs on a lost world?

Your shame is made evident by your posts. If the sandal fits......


----------



## Ronnie T

gtparts said:


> It is sad and more than a little disturbing to know that some here cannot (perhaps, will not) distinguish between substance and style.
> 
> That Christian principles, theology and doctrine may be delivered in a particular style, absent the context of drugs, murder, sexual misconduct, etc., from which that style originally appeared, should be a matter of praise. It is one more tool to spread the Gospel.
> 
> Before a segment of any culture will listen to the Gospel, that group must see relevance. Preaching in English to some secluded and obscure tribe in New Guinea was pointless until we could show them the love of Christ and speak to them in a language they understood.
> 
> So it is with many generational differences. If we will not leave the comfort of our Sunday pews (and the familiarity of our preferred musical styles) and engage others "where they live", we are no more useful to the Kingdom of God than the pharisees who passed by the robbed and beaten Jewish sojourner on the other side of the road.
> 
> Jesus clearly understood the heart of the Samaritan...... and those who avoided getting involved.
> 
> Who can claim the title "Christian" and turn their backs on a lost world?
> 
> Your shame is made evident by your posts. If the sandal fits......




And SIR, which of us are you speaking to?
And then I'll have more to say to you.


----------



## Huntinfool

Ronnie T said:


> When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.



...and you're under the impression that they chose that hymn over rap at that point in history?

I suppose John or Charles Wesley wrote that hymn?  Fanny Crosby?

Consider this.  The hymns that you are parading out there.  The ones that you are thinking of as traditional and the ones that are pleasing to the Lord....those hymns were written well over 1500 years after the one they sang in the passage you quoted.

Likely that they "style" they sang it in changed in those 1500 years, don't you think?  Pretty likely that the content of those hymns were equally pleasing to the Lord though?

You pickin' up what I'm puttin' down?


Edit:  Ronnie, just read the lacrae posts.  Good for you.


----------



## tween_the_banks

Just for the record, rap music wasn't a ghetto spawn. It exsisted for years before it became mainstream after the gangster rappers got hold of it. Rap, just like poetry if done well, can be very powerful. You Christians beat yourselves. It's a folly to deny a thing for how green it is. If I were trying to save souls through a God, Dang right I'd use the trends of the day. You think a 16 year old kid in the ghetto is going to raise his ears to amazing grace as quickly as he would to the bass kicking in to one of lacrae's ( think that's the spelling ) songs? Nope. There's no telling how many of the hymns sang today in southern Baptist churches were considered Satan music initially by old timers of the church. Who knows maybe kids even moshed to those hymns back in the day haha.


----------



## gtparts

Ronnie T said:


> And SIR, which of us are you speaking to?
> And then I'll have more to say to you.



If you felt no offense, Ronnie, then none was given. From experience, it is usually the dog that is struck that barks. The one who bears shame often remains silent.

As I said, "If the sandal fits...."

Paul clearly indicates that we are to use the tools God gives us in our outreach, evangelism, and ministry. 
Jesus loved, and still loves us, while we are yet in our sin. Do we love others enough to approach them "as they are" or do they have to conform to our rules before they are allowed to hear the Gospel? Our job is the presentation of the Good News; God saves them and transforms them. If the Good News is presented in the style of rap, where is the problem? Would any suggest that God cannot work His will through rap?


----------



## dcjones

Ronnie I don't know you but, I have a tremendous amount of respect for the way you have handled yourself. If more christians would take the time to defend their beliefs and keep and open mind we would all be better off. We would learn how to defend our positions or change our mind.


----------



## Ronnie T

GT, one of the things that I've grown to detest in life is an arrogant, all-knowing, overly righteous Christian who thinks no one should question anything that they believe in.
I can promise you that I'm not a dog that was struck by your words in a personal way.  But I'm struck by the arrogance of your response to the original question..... Oh wait, I don't think you even responded to the original question.

The church today needs people who are willing to question everything.  Everything.  We all see the permissiveness in the church today so you should welcome every opportunity that causes you to reevaluate your thinking.  Hopefully, you will not get so carried away with yourself that you neglect the reevaluation process.
After listening to some of the Christian raps I can see that some of them have powerful messages for Christians young and old.  

And you, like everyone else except Formula, clung to the mission use of rap music.  But that isn't why Christians listen to rap.  In the future, I won't be listening to Christian rap (maybe occasionally) because of it's mission value.  I'll be listening because of it's message.  Not because I just lllooovvveee rap, but because of it's message.

But I won't stop questioning things I have doubts about.
The liberal theology of much of the church today means there has to be a lot questioning.
Read some of the Gallop polls concerning Christianity and it's young people.  The permissiveness of mine and your generation has not been a totally positive influence upon Christ's church.  You and I, and our generation, share the blame for a drastic change in the attitudes of many believers today.
We deserve to be questioned.
You deserve to be questioned.


----------



## Huntinfool

> The church today needs people who are willing to question everything. Everything.



Even Christ?



> Read some of the Gallop polls concerning Christianity and it's young people. The permissiveness of mine and your generation has not been a totally positive influence upon Christ's church.



The fact that nearly 80% of young people leave the faith has very little to do with the type of music we are listening to or the permissiveness of the churches they attend.  

80% of youth from ALL churches (from the most contemporary to the most traditional) are leaving the faith...not just the ones that allow rapping or comtemporary music or anything else.

80% of kids are leaving the faith by the time they get to college for one reason and one reason alone....*the 100% failure of parents (particularly FATHERS) to disciple their children as they are biblically commanded to do.*Why do you think that people in their 30's and 40's miraculously return to the church in droves?  They are having kids and they want to bring their kids to church so that the CHURCH will show them God...but they don't show him to them in their own homes.

If I keep going I'll get angry and go on a rant.  So I'll stop there and just reiterate.  The fact that kids are leaving has nothing to do with permissiveness in churches and everything to do with parents.


----------



## Michael F. Gray

Please do not confuse what is today called dancing with "dancing"  done by King David and the Hebrew children. The dance refered to in the scripture consisted of holding hands while walking usually in a square and singing songs,[The Psalms], in their native tongue. It's purpose was to glorify God, and acknowledge all good gifts flow to us from him. The "dance" was an active part of the worship service. It does not deserve comparisons with contortions today called dance performed to sounds that bring no glorification to the Almighty, and most often refer to things which shouldn't be mentioned in mixed company.


----------



## gtparts

*Christian rappers???*



Gabassmaster said:


> What are yalls opinions on this???





Ronnie T said:


> GT, one of the things that I've grown to detest in life is an arrogant, all-knowing, overly righteous Christian who thinks no one should question anything that they believe in.
> I can promise you that I'm not a dog that was struck by your words in a personal way.  But I'm struck by the arrogance of your response to the original question..... Oh wait, I don't think you even responded to the original question.
> 
> The church today needs people who are willing to question everything.  Everything.  We all see the permissiveness in the church today so you should welcome every opportunity that causes you to reevaluate your thinking.  Hopefully, you will not get so carried away with yourself that you neglect the reevaluation process.
> After listening to some of the Christian raps I can see that some of them have powerful messages for Christians young and old.
> 
> And you, like everyone else except Formula, clung to the mission use of rap music.  But that isn't why Christians listen to rap.  In the future, I won't be listening to Christian rap (maybe occasionally) because of it's mission value.  I'll be listening because of it's message.  Not because I just lllooovvveee rap, but because of it's message.
> 
> But I won't stop questioning things I have doubts about.
> The liberal theology of much of the church today means there has to be a lot questioning.
> Read some of the Gallop polls concerning Christianity and it's young people.  The permissiveness of mine and your generation has not been a totally positive influence upon Christ's church.  You and I, and our generation, share the blame for a drastic change in the attitudes of many believers today.
> We deserve to be questioned.
> You deserve to be questioned.



Ronnie, I wouldn't begin to suggest that anyone accept anything without first examining it. God's Word is my litmus test and I recommend it to all.

Rap is, to me, like fire. It can be used to the benefit of the user or to his or her detriment. 
Fire gives heat and light, cooks our food, keeps fierce animals and enemies away, dries food for preservation, clears and helps renew land. Mankind has the ability to control it for the good..... and the ability to abuse it to our regret. Fire can injure and kill. It can destroy the assets and work of our labor. 
Rap, in fact every musical style, can be used to promote evil or good. Harps, pianos and organs can be the background for all kinds of coarse and bawdy songs, promoting filthy and disgusting lifestyles, delivered in all kinds of tempos and beats. The music for "Amazing Grace" can be rewritten with lyrics that would repulse most everyone on this forum.

The bottom line for me, the determining factor, is the message. Music and song need not be distinctly Christian to be clean and entertaining and everything not distinctly Christian is not necessarily evil and debasing. 

So, Ronnie, if you or any one else were in doubt about my opinion on the OP, you can add this to my other posts on this thread for a fairly comprehensive response.

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 (HCSB)
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-HCSB-28731">19</sup> For although I am free from all people, I have made myself a slave to all, in order to win more people.  <sup class="versenum" id="en-HCSB-28732">20</sup>  To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win Jews; to those under the law,  like one under the law—though I myself am not under the law —to win those under the law.<sup class="versenum" id="en-HCSB-28733"> 21</sup> To those who are outside the law, like one outside the law—not being outside God's law, but under the law of Christ—to win those outside the law.  <sup class="versenum" id="en-HCSB-28734">22</sup>  To the weak I became weak, in order to win the weak. I have become all  things to all people, so that I may by all means save some. <sup class="xref" value="(B)"></sup>  <sup class="versenum" id="en-HCSB-28735">23</sup> Now I do all this because of the gospel, that I may become a partner in its benefits. 

If Christian rap is the key to establishing a relationship that allows me to express the Gospel to someone who would not otherwise respond to my efforts, I'll use it. If you can't do it with authenticity, don't discourage someone who can. The life that is redeemed may be the next great world evangelist.
<sup class="footnote" value="[a]"></sup>


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> Even Christ?
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that nearly 80% of young people leave the faith has very little to do with the type of music we are listening to or the permissiveness of the churches they attend.
> 
> 80% of youth from ALL churches (from the most contemporary to the most traditional) are leaving the faith...not just the ones that allow rapping or comtemporary music or anything else.
> 
> 80% of kids are leaving the faith by the time they get to college for one reason and one reason alone....*the 100% failure of parents (particularly FATHERS) to disciple their children as they are biblically commanded to do.*Why do you think that people in their 30's and 40's miraculously return to the church in droves?  They are having kids and they want to bring their kids to church so that the CHURCH will show them God...but they don't show him to them in their own homes.
> 
> If I keep going I'll get angry and go on a rant.  So I'll stop there and just reiterate.  The fact that kids are leaving has nothing to do with permissiveness in churches and everything to do with parents.



I understand your last statement.... But you need to accept this:  Those parents you're talking about, they ARE the church.  In Revelations, when Jesus wrote the letters to the churches in Asia,  Jesus was addressing the people of the church, the parents, the human beings.

It is the Christian parents are accountable for the lapse in spiritual dedication of their children.


----------



## Ronnie T

gtparts said:


> Ronnie, I wouldn't begin to suggest that anyone accept anything without first examining it. God's Word is my litmus test and I recommend it to all.
> 
> Rap is, to me, like fire. It can be used to the benefit of the user or to his or her detriment.
> Fire gives heat and light, cooks our food, keeps fierce animals and enemies away, dries food for preservation, clears and helps renew land. Mankind has the ability to control it for the good..... and the ability to abuse it to our regret. Fire can injure and kill. It can destroy the assets and work of our labor.
> Rap, in fact every musical style, can be used to promote evil or good. Harps, pianos and organs can be the background for all kinds of coarse and bawdy songs, promoting filthy and disgusting lifestyles, delivered in all kinds of tempos and beats. The music for "Amazing Grace" can be rewritten with lyrics that would repulse most everyone on this forum.
> 
> The bottom line for me, the determining factor, is the message. Music and song need not be distinctly Christian to be clean and entertaining and everything not distinctly Christian is not necessarily evil and debasing. You're muddying the water here.
> 
> 
> So, Ronnie, if you or any one else were in doubt about my opinion on the OP, you can add this to my other posts on this thread for a fairly comprehensive response.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 (HCSB)
> <sup class="versenum" id="en-HCSB-28731">19</sup> For although I am free from all people, I have made myself a slave to all, in order to win more people.  <sup class="versenum" id="en-HCSB-28732">20</sup>  To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win Jews; to those under the law,  like one under the law—though I myself am not under the law —to win those under the law.<sup class="versenum" id="en-HCSB-28733"> 21</sup> To those who are outside the law, like one outside the law—not being outside God's law, but under the law of Christ—to win those outside the law.  <sup class="versenum" id="en-HCSB-28734">22</sup>  To the weak I became weak, in order to win the weak. I have become all  things to all people, so that I may by all means save some. <sup class="xref" value="(B)"></sup>  <sup class="versenum" id="en-HCSB-28735">23</sup> Now I do all this because of the gospel, that I may become a partner in its benefits.
> 
> If Christian rap is the key to establishing a relationship that allows me to express the Gospel to someone who would not otherwise respond to my efforts, I'll use it. If you can't do it with authenticity, don't discourage someone who can. The life that is redeemed may be the next great world evangelist.
> <sup class="footnote" value="[a]"></sup>



So, from everything you've written, you only use Christian rap as a means of bringing others to Christ?
That's not what you're saying is it?  Don't you personally benefit from Christian rap.
As it turns out, I can be encouraged from it.  You haven't spoken of any personal benefit you might gain from Christian rap.


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> ...and you're under the impression that they chose that hymn over rap at that point in history?
> 
> I suppose John or Charles Wesley wrote that hymn?  Fanny Crosby?
> 
> Consider this.  The hymns that you are parading out there.  The ones that you are thinking of as traditional and the ones that are pleasing to the Lord....those hymns were written well over 1500 years after the one they sang in the passage you quoted.
> 
> Likely that they "style" they sang it in changed in those 1500 years, don't you think?  Pretty likely that the content of those hymns were equally pleasing to the Lord though?
> 
> You pickin' up what I'm puttin' down?
> 
> 
> Edit:  Ronnie, just read the lacrae posts.  Good for you.



I'll promise you this, when Jesus and His apostles sang that hymn prior to walking over to the mount of Olives they were only concerned with spiritual matters.
Not what's 'trendy', not what sounded good.
I promise you they weren't tapping their toes and snapping their fingers.
They sang to unit themselves, to draw strength from each other and from God.  They sang to praise God and ask for His mercy in the coming hours.
There was nothing impressive about their sings that day except the joining of spiritual hearts together as they connected with God.


----------



## Huntinfool

Ronnie T said:


> I understand your last statement.... But you need to accept this:  Those parents you're talking about, they ARE the church.  In Revelations, when Jesus wrote the letters to the churches in Asia,  Jesus was addressing the people of the church, the parents, the human beings.
> 
> It is the Christian parents are accountable for the lapse in spiritual dedication of their children.



So what difference does it make what kind of music they sing if they parents are the responsible party?  If the parents did their jobs, the kids would not leave.  It has nothing to do with the music.


----------



## Huntinfool

Ronnie T said:


> I'll promise you this, when Jesus and His apostles sang that hymn prior to walking over to the mount of Olives they were only concerned with spiritual matters.
> Not what's 'trendy', not what sounded good.
> I promise you they weren't tapping their toes and snapping their fingers.
> They sang to unit themselves, to draw strength from each other and from God.  They sang to praise God and ask for His mercy in the coming hours.
> There was nothing impressive about their sings that day except the joining of spiritual hearts together as they connected with God.



That's my point.  Why didn't John and Charles Wesley and Fanny Crosby leave well enough alone?  Why weren't those original hymns passed from generation to generation to generation?

Why did they have to write "new" hymns?

It's just a continuation of the human heart singing praises to the King.


----------



## pbradley

Ronnie T said:


> GT, one of the things that I've grown to detest in life is an arrogant, all-knowing, overly righteous Christian who thinks no one should question anything that they believe in.
> I can promise you that I'm not a dog that was struck by your words in a personal way.  But I'm struck by the arrogance of your response to the original question..... Oh wait, I don't think you even responded to the original question.
> 
> The church today needs people who are willing to question everything.  Everything.  We all see the permissiveness in the church today so you should welcome every opportunity that causes you to reevaluate your thinking.  Hopefully, you will not get so carried away with yourself that you neglect the reevaluation process.
> After listening to some of the Christian raps I can see that some of them have powerful messages for Christians young and old.
> 
> And you, like everyone else except Formula, clung to the mission use of rap music.  But that isn't why Christians listen to rap.  In the future, I won't be listening to Christian rap (maybe occasionally) because of it's mission value.  I'll be listening because of it's message.  Not because I just lllooovvveee rap, but because of it's message.
> 
> But I won't stop questioning things I have doubts about.
> The liberal theology of much of the church today means there has to be a lot questioning.
> Read some of the Gallop polls concerning Christianity and it's young people.  The permissiveness of mine and your generation has not been a totally positive influence upon Christ's church.  You and I, and our generation, share the blame for a drastic change in the attitudes of many believers today.
> We deserve to be questioned.
> You deserve to be questioned.



I have two thoughts.

First:



> Acts 17:10 - And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
> 
> 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.



The Bereans tested Paul's message against scripture. They questioned his doctrine before they accepted it.

The other thought regarding rap (and popular culture in general, which is something I struggle with because I'm a pop culture geek) is a quote from an article I read recently. I've quoted it elsewhere on the forum, but feel it applies here:

"How can I impact the culture if I am just like it?"


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> So what difference does it make what kind of music they sing if they parents are the responsible party?  If the parents did their jobs, the kids would not leave.  It has nothing to do with the music.



Neither of us can know that for sure.


----------



## mtnwoman

A little old lady and her husband bought my home in hendersonville when I had to move to winston. At the closing, we were talking about or maybe my granddaughter started singing a comtemporary hymn. The lil' old lady said she only liked old hymns because God is always the same and never changes....so I said what? you sing them in hebrew???.....lol


----------



## tween_the_banks

mtnwoman said:


> A little old lady and her husband bought my home in hendersonville when I had to move to winston. At the closing, we were talking about or maybe my granddaughter started singing a comtemporary hymn. The lil' old lady said she only liked old hymns because God is always the same and never changes....so I said what? you sing them in hebrew???.....lol



I would have loved to have seen her face.
You just won this debate by the way.


----------



## Gabassmaster

mtnwoman said:


> A little old lady and her husband bought my home in hendersonville when I had to move to winston. At the closing, we were talking about or maybe my granddaughter started singing a comtemporary hymn. The lil' old lady said she only liked old hymns because God is always the same and never changes....so I said what? you sing them in hebrew???.....lol



a different language does not mean its contemporary, contemporary is somthing new to the world and the bible says to stay apart from that.
2 Corinthians 6:17
King James Version (KJV)
 17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.


----------



## Huntinfool

Again....how many years after Christ walked the earth did John and Charles Wesley and Fannie Crosby write the hymns we sing today?


----------



## tween_the_banks

Huntinfool said:


> Again....how many years after Christ walked the earth did John and Charles Wesley and Fannie Crosby write the hymns we sing today?


I don't typically say this, but Amen.


----------



## Gabassmaster

What genre on music do yall believe The devil will invade the church with since rap is so Godly what do yall consider unGodly do you have standards?


----------



## rjcruiser

Michael F. Gray said:


> Please do not confuse what is today called dancing with "dancing"  done by King David and the Hebrew children. The dance refered to in the scripture consisted of holding hands while walking usually in a square and singing songs,[The Psalms], in their native tongue. It's purpose was to glorify God, and acknowledge all good gifts flow to us from him. The "dance" was an active part of the worship service. It does not deserve comparisons with contortions today called dance performed to sounds that bring no glorification to the Almighty, and most often refer to things which shouldn't be mentioned in mixed company.



Surprised that you actually think holding hands is okay.

Dr. Jones doesn't allow any touching between males and females on his college campus....not even between brother and sister.

There are certain forms of dancing which aren't appropriate, but let's not condemn all because of some.


----------



## Huntinfool

> What genre on music do yall believe The devil will invade the church with since rap is so Godly what do yall consider unGodly do you have standards?



Anything that does not glorify his name.

Dr. Dre does not glorify God in his lyrics or efforts....Lacrae most definitely does.

Same style, same genre, different content and one done with a pure heart and one without.

Can you not see that?

The content is what is of consequence.



You sure do stand against and in condemnation of a lot of things.  It would be nice to hear about some of the things you stand for every once in a while.


----------



## rjcruiser

Gabassmaster said:


> What genre on music do yall believe The devil will invade the church with since rap is so Godly what do yall consider unGodly do you have standards?



Hmm...interesting.  I think it has nothing to do with the genre, but with the people's lives that sing all music.

Look at what happened to some popular artists....Amy Grant, Sandi Patti, Michael English to name a few.  All either un-faithful to their spouses and/or turned away from the message that they preached with their music.  All would fall under the Christian Contemporary/Conservative bucket.


No....I don't believe it will be a specific genre.  More with the watering down of the message and the lifestyle of those doing the singing.


----------



## Gabassmaster

Huntinfool said:


> Anything that does not glorify his name.
> 
> Dr. Dre does not glorify God in his lyrics or efforts....Lacrae most definitely does.
> 
> Same style, same genre, different content and one done with a pure heart and one without.
> 
> Can you not see that?
> 
> The content is what is of consequence.
> 
> 
> 
> You sure do stand against and in condemnation of a lot of things.  It would be nice to hear about some of the things you stand for every once in a while.




I stand for whats right the problem with all the churches now a days is they dont stand against nothin, they dont care if girls walk in half neked, or if someone comes to rap, they switch bibles, they dont preach on nothing cause they dont wanna hurt anyones feelings they think if you cant beat em join them


----------



## Gabassmaster

This verse comes to mind when i think of Christian rap lol (oxymoron)
1 Corinthians 15:33
King James Version (KJV)
 33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.


----------



## Huntinfool

You have not addressed my consistent question about the hymns that you are singing in church.  They were in every way "contemporary" in comparison to what the early church was singing.  They were in every way the music of the day.  How is that different?  If I were to write a rap that was identical in content to "Old Rugged Cross", would it be less acceptable to god as worship because it was sung against a beat versus a piano?

Where is the line drawn?


----------



## Gabassmaster

Huntinfool said:


> You have not address my consistent question about the hymns that you are singing in church.  They were in every way "contemporary" in comparison to what the early church was singing.  They were in every way the music of the day.  How is that different?  If I were to write a rap that was identical in content to "Old Rugged Cross", would it be less acceptable to god as worship because it was sung against a beat versus a piano?
> 
> Where is the line drawn?



what type of music do you think the devil would chose to invade a church with??


----------



## Huntinfool

I already told you....



> Anything that does not glorify his name.
> 
> Dr. Dre does not glorify God in his lyrics or efforts....Lacrae most definitely does.
> 
> Same style, same genre, different content and one done with a pure heart and one without.
> 
> Can you not see that?
> 
> The content is what is of consequence.




Could you distinguish whether the below is godly and God pleasing as worship please?

1.	On a hill far away stood an old rugged cross,
	the emblem of suffering and shame;
	and I love that old cross where the dearest and best
	for a world of lost sinners was slain.
Refrain:
	So I'll cherish the old rugged cross,
	till my trophies at last I lay down;
	I will cling to the old rugged cross,
	and exchange it some day for a crown.

2.	O that old rugged cross, so despised by the world,
	has a wondrous attraction for me;
	for the dear Lamb of God left his glory above
	to bear it to dark Calvary.
	(Refrain)

3.	In that old rugged cross, stained with blood so divine,
	a wondrous beauty I see,
	for 'twas on that old cross Jesus suffered and died,
	to pardon and sanctify me.
	(Refrain)

4.	To that old rugged cross I will ever be true,
	its shame and reproach gladly bear;
	then he'll call me some day to my home far away,
	where his glory forever I'll share.
	(Refrain)

*I just rapped it out loud (and it was terrible because I'm not a rapper).  Is it less godly now?*


----------



## rjcruiser

Huntinfool said:


> *I just rapped it out loud (and it was terrible because I'm not a rapper).  Is it less godly now?*



Get the folks on the bus to rap it for ya.  I'm sure they'll be able to do a much better job


----------



## Gabassmaster

Huntinfool said:


> I already told you....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could you distinguish whether the below is godly and God pleasing as worship please?
> 
> 1.	On a hill far away stood an old rugged cross,
> the emblem of suffering and shame;
> and I love that old cross where the dearest and best
> for a world of lost sinners was slain.
> Refrain:
> So I'll cherish the old rugged cross,
> till my trophies at last I lay down;
> I will cling to the old rugged cross,
> and exchange it some day for a crown.
> 
> 2.	O that old rugged cross, so despised by the world,
> has a wondrous attraction for me;
> for the dear Lamb of God left his glory above
> to bear it to dark Calvary.
> (Refrain)
> 
> 3.	In that old rugged cross, stained with blood so divine,
> a wondrous beauty I see,
> for 'twas on that old cross Jesus suffered and died,
> to pardon and sanctify me.
> (Refrain)
> 
> 4.	To that old rugged cross I will ever be true,
> its shame and reproach gladly bear;
> then he'll call me some day to my home far away,
> where his glory forever I'll share.
> (Refrain)
> 
> *I just rapped it out loud (and it was terrible because I'm not a rapper).  Is it less godly now?*



Assosiating Jesus and Thugs is wrong


----------



## formula1

Gabassmaster said:


> what type of music do you think the devil would chose to invade a church with??



The devil doesn't invade churches with the obvious and music is a good example.  He invades churches with legalism and foolish pride under the disguise of 'right'. That's far more subtle to find and refute because it's disguised as an angel of light.


----------



## Huntinfool

Gabassmaster said:


> Assosiating Jesus and Thugs is wrong



*Jesus associated himself with thugs (prostitutes, muderers, persecuters, etc) all the time my brother.  *

Perhaps you should rethink your position.














You just walked head-long right into that one.  It had to be pointed out.


----------



## Gabassmaster

Huntinfool said:


> Jesus associated himself with thugs all the time my brother.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You just walked right into that one.  It had to be pointed out.




so Jesus wore his pants below his waste and wore gold chains and murdered people ????/ you just walked right in to that on should i say BROTHA since your a rapper and all


----------



## rjcruiser

Gabassmaster said:


> so Jesus wore his pants below his waste and wore gold chains and murdered people ????/ you just walked right in to that on should i say BROTHA since your a rapper and all



Hmmm...trying to remember the last Christian Rapper that murdered people.


Gabassmaster...can you give some examples instead of speaking from ignorance?


----------



## Gabassmaster

rjcruiser said:


> Hmmm...trying to remember the last Christian Rapper that murdered people.
> 
> 
> Gabassmaster...can you give some examples instead of speaking from ignorance?



its the image they are portraying themselves as thats like starting a rapist christian group


----------



## Ronnie T

Let me just toss another thought out hear.  I know it's not going to go over well with many of you, coming from such a legalistic thinking person as myself.  But consider this....

Why do we Christians even need to listen to psalms and hymns and Christian rap and contemporary Christian music and the choir?
When along the way from the cross of Jesus did we decide that we wanted to get someone else to sing the stuff so that we could listen to it?

In John 4 Jesus spoke of the time when people would be able to worship Him in spirit and in truth, any place they wanted to.  Wouldn't need the temple.

Then we find Jesus and the apostles singing a spiritual song.

Then we have the scripture that leads us sing spiritual songs and hymns.

Nothing in all the gospel speaks of that singing being anything other than a change for Christians to sing praises to God while drawing each of us closer together.

It's about singing in the spirit, not about listening.  It's not about who wrote the song, or who sings it the best, or who I get the most from his singing. 

Isn't it actually about me and you singing in the spirit?????????
Christians don't need a radio, or speakers, or a concert hall.  We have risen about those things. 

We sing the magical songs, spiritual songs.

Now I know that's a pretty legalistic attitude or thought for me to have.  We have to be modern, don't we?  We have to 'stay up with the times', don't we?

Rather than bash me, how about your thoughts on the biblical ramifications?


----------



## rjcruiser

Gabassmaster said:


> its the image they are portraying themselves as thats like starting a rapist christian group





Really?  I can't believe you'd wear a polo shirt to work in...or even jeans.

They are way too casual and you should be ashamed of trying to fit in with the world.



Ronnie T said:


> Let me just toss another thought out hear.  I know it's not going to go over well with many of you, coming from such a legalistic thinking person as myself.  But consider this....
> 
> Why do we Christians even need to listen to psalms and hymns and Christian rap and contemporary Christian music and the choir?
> When along the way from the cross of Jesus did we decide that we wanted to get someone else to sing the stuff so that we could listen to it?
> 
> In John 4 Jesus spoke of the time when people would be able to worship Him in spirit and in truth, any place they wanted to.  Wouldn't need the temple.
> 
> Then we find Jesus and the apostles singing a spiritual song.
> 
> Then we have the scripture that leads us sing spiritual songs and hymns.
> 
> Nothing in all the gospel speaks of that singing being anything other than a change for Christians to sing praises to God while drawing each of us closer together.
> 
> It's about singing in the spirit, not about listening.  It's not about who wrote the song, or who sings it the best, or who I get the most from his singing.
> 
> Isn't it actually about me and you singing in the spirit?????????
> Christians don't need a radio, or speakers, or a concert hall.  We have risen about those things.
> 
> We sing the magical songs, spiritual songs.
> 
> Now I know that's a pretty legalistic attitude or thought for me to have.  We have to be modern, don't we?  We have to 'stay up with the times', don't we?
> 
> Rather than bash me, how about your thoughts on the biblical ramifications?



Hmm...wonder why David used the tamborine and harp to sing his prayers to the Lord.

Really Ronnie....you're grasping on this one.

I love to listen to songs and music.  Nothing gets the lyrics in my head any better.  And then....you know what happens?  I actually remember the lyrics and sing them on a regular basis.

Shame isn't it?  That I remember solid Christ-Centered lyrics that were put to music.  I must be sinning.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

Some folks are just better than others putting wonderful worshipful words and a servants heart into music.  These in fact are spiritual songs and I thank God for their gift to the body of Christ and to me.  I have been brought closer to God because of their gift.

Thank you Jesus for giving us music all through the ages that strikes a chord in our heart brings us to worship and service in your name!


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Really?  I can't believe you'd wear a polo shirt to work in...or even jeans.
> 
> They are way too casual and you should be ashamed of trying to fit in with the world.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm...wonder why David used the tamborine and harp to sing his prayers to the Lord.
> 
> Really Ronnie....you're grasping on this one.
> 
> I love to listen to songs and music.  Nothing gets the lyrics in my head any better.  And then....you know what happens?  I actually remember the lyrics and sing them on a regular basis.
> 
> Shame isn't it?  That I remember solid Christ-Centered lyrics that were put to music.  I must be sinning.




Tell me this, with which do you tend to connect better with God - a catchy song you sing with on the radio, or with your radio off, you sing the song all by yourself, just you and God?   If you had to choose, which would you choose?


----------



## Ronnie T

formula1 said:


> Some folks are just better than others putting wonderful worshipful words and a servants heart into music.  These in fact are spiritual songs and I thank God for their gift to the body of Christ and to me.  I have been brought closer to God because of their gift.
> 
> Thank you Jesus for giving us music all through the ages that strikes a chord in our heart brings us to worship and service in your name!



Maybe they came from Jesus, and maybe they did not.
Nothing can touch my heart as strongly as me, alone, singing a spiritual song.
I suspect, and hope it's the same for everyone.


----------



## BIGJOHNA

huntinfool said:


> anything that does not glorify his name.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you sure do stand against and in condemnation of a lot of things.  It would be nice to hear about some of the things you stand for every once in a while.



amen!!!


----------



## Huntinfool

Ronnie T said:


> Tell me this, with which do you tend to connect better with God - a catchy song you sing with on the radio, or with your radio off, you sing the song all by yourself, just you and God?   If you had to choose, which would you choose?



Why do we have to choose?

You don't own a radio or a CD?  Have itunes on your computer?

I get what you're trying to say.  No, we don't NEED someone else to sing for us.  It's not about us.  But sometimes being led into worship is also very powerful (and not unbiblical).

Ronnie, do you or Gabass ever have someone sing a "special" during your church services?


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> Nothing can touch my heart as strongly as me, alone, singing a spiritual song.
> I suspect, and hope it's the same for everyone.



I really can't disagree. Even if I had no access to music, I will still be singing to Jesus. God Bless!


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Let me just toss another thought out hear.  I know it's not going to go over well with many of you, coming from such a legalistic thinking person as myself.  But consider this....
> 
> Why do we Christians even need to listen to psalms and hymns and Christian rap and contemporary Christian music and the choir?
> When along the way from the cross of Jesus did we decide that we wanted to get someone else to sing the stuff so that we could listen to it?
> 
> In John 4 Jesus spoke of the time when people would be able to worship Him in spirit and in truth, any place they wanted to.  Wouldn't need the temple.
> 
> Then we find Jesus and the apostles singing a spiritual song.
> 
> Then we have the scripture that leads us sing spiritual songs and hymns.
> 
> Nothing in all the gospel speaks of that singing being anything other than a charge for Christians to sing praises to God while drawing each of us closer together.
> 
> It's about singing in the spirit, not about listening.  It's not about who wrote the song, or who sings it the best, or who I get the most from his singing.
> 
> Isn't it actually about me and you singing in the spirit?????????
> Christians don't need a radio, or speakers, or a concert hall.  We have risen about those things.
> 
> We sing the magical songs, spiritual songs.
> Now I know that's a pretty legalistic attitude or thought for me to have.  We have to be modern, don't we?  We have to 'stay up with the times', don't we?
> 
> Rather than bash me, how about your thoughts on the biblical ramifications?




If you don't mind:  

Rather than bash me, how about your thoughts on the biblical ramifications.


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> Why do we have to choose?
> 
> You don't own a radio or a CD?  Have itunes on your computer?
> 
> I get what you're trying to say.  No, we don't NEED someone else to sing for us.  It's not about us.  But sometimes being led into worship is also very powerful (and not unbiblical).
> 
> Ronnie, do you or Gabass ever have someone sing a "special" during your church services?




I can't speak for Gabass, but no, we never have anyone sing a special at church.  Except maybe Christmas time when the very young children are given a chance to show us the songs they've learned in class.  And we'll do that during worship period.

But generally speaking, where I worship we sing about 10 "special" song every Sunday morning.  And everyone sings them together.  We have a choir.  And everyone at church is always a singing member of that choir.  They don't even have to get up and sit up front facing the rest of the Christians.  They don't wear the cute "special" robes either.

You asked, I told you.


----------



## tween_the_banks

Gabassmaster said:


> so Jesus wore his pants below his waste and wore gold chains and murdered people ????/ you just walked right in to that on should i say BROTHA since your a rapper and all



Sir, you need to reevaluate the hip-hop scene in its entirety. For you to claim that rap is solely thug music is absurd. Give me a break.
As I stated before it was gangsta rap that gave hip-hop a bad name.


----------



## Huntinfool

> You asked, I told you.




Fair enough.  

So are you, then of the opinion that ALL christian music (i.e. the recorded stuff sent out to be played over the airwaves) or "special" solo type songs are in the same category with the rap we've been talking about?

That's what I'm hearing.  I guess, my real question goes back to "Why do we have to choose?"


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Let me just toss another thought out hear.  I know it's not going to go over well with many of you, coming from such a legalistic thinking person as myself.  But consider this....
> 
> Why do we Christians even need to listen to psalms and hymns and Christian rap and contemporary Christian music and the choir?
> When along the way from the cross of Jesus did we decide that we wanted to get someone else to sing the stuff so that we could listen to it?
> 
> In John 4 Jesus spoke of the time when people would be able to worship Him in spirit and in truth, any place they wanted to.  Wouldn't need the temple.
> 
> Then we find Jesus and the apostles singing a spiritual song.
> 
> Then we have the scripture that leads us sing spiritual songs and hymns.
> 
> Nothing in all the gospel speaks of that singing being anything other than a change for Christians to sing praises to God while drawing each of us closer together.
> 
> It's about singing in the spirit, not about listening.  It's not about who wrote the song, or who sings it the best, or who I get the most from his singing.
> 
> Isn't it actually about me and you singing in the spirit?????????
> Christians don't need a radio, or speakers, or a concert hall.  We have risen about those things.
> 
> We sing the magical songs, spiritual songs.
> 
> Now I know that's a pretty legalistic attitude or thought for me to have.  We have to be modern, don't we?  We have to 'stay up with the times', don't we?
> 
> Rather than bash me, how about your thoughts on the biblical ramifications?



By the way, I didn't post this because I'm taking a particular stand on the issue.
I posted it for your consideration and thoughts.  A reality check for all of us, if that's possible.


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> Tell me this, with which do you tend to connect better with God - a catchy song you sing with on the radio, or with your radio off, you sing the song all by yourself, just you and God?   If you had to choose, which would you choose?



Not sure.  Usually, they go hand in hand.  One helps cause the other.  I'm not the most creative and without the music I hear, I wouldn't be singing any tune.



Ronnie T said:


> If you don't mind:
> 
> Rather than bash me, how about your thoughts on the biblical ramifications.



I see the Biblical ramifications of legalism as this.



			
				Revelation said:
			
		

> Revelation 2
> Message to Ephesus
> 1 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:
> The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks [a]among the seven golden lampstands, says this:
> 
> 2 ‘I know your deeds and your toil and *perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; 3 and you have [c]perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the [d]deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent. 6 Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’
> *


*


You test...which is comendable, but it has caused your faith to be a checklist.  Sing the hymn, check.  Wear a suit & tie to church, check.  Pray the same prayer, check.  Have communion once a quarter, check.  Drop 10% in the plate, check.  All actions, no passion.

Nothing wrong with passion that has proper motives and is directed at glorifying God.*


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> So are you, then of the opinion that ALL christian music (i.e. the recorded stuff sent out to be played over the airwaves) or "special" solo type songs are in the same category with the rap we've been talking about?
> No, I don't consider them to be in the same category.  If you have special solo's at your church that's fine by me.  You don't need my approval anyway.  And yes, I see a huge difference in singing a spiritual song as a congregation on the Lord's day, and singing Christian rap or Christian metal or Christian country.There is a danger of it being of the devil rather than of God.
> 
> That's what I'm hearing.  I guess, my real question goes back to "Why do we have to choose?"



Your question is:  "Why do we have to choose?"
My question, to myself is, "Why wasn't what I already had good enough?"  If I can sit in my car and sing a song praising God, why do I turn the radio on and look for other singers to listen to?

Again, I'm not taking a stand here.  I'm just thinking out loud.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Why do we Christians even need to listen to psalms and hymns and Christian rap and contemporary Christian music and the choir?



To worship or be led into worship of the King.  Pretty straightforward.




> When along the way from the cross of Jesus did we decide that we wanted to get someone else to sing the stuff so that we could listen to it?



I don't know.  But I am often blessed by the talents and gifts that God has given others.  Many people, admittedly, listen to those songs in an effort to be entertained.  I believe the level of maturity of the follower has a LOT to do with whether you can worship regardless of the style.  

Could you worship with a bunch of native Ethiopians dancing to native drums and singing in their native tongue KNOWING that they were singing to God?





> Isn't it actually about me and you singing in the spirit?????????



It's about singing praise to the Father.  I suppose that's the same thing, yes.  Is it possible for someone else to sing it, a large crowd to listen and ALL be worshipping corporately?  Why do the others have to be singing out loud for it to count?  It's a matter of the heart worshipping is it not?



> Christians don't need a radio, or speakers, or a concert hall. We have risen about those things.



I disagree on the rising above comment.  Worship can come in many forms.  Silence while listening is one of those forms.



> We have to be modern, don't we? We have to 'stay up with the times', don't we?



Nope.  I just got done with 10 days of campmeeting.  Nothing but old hymns and it was AWESOME!  The evening I got back, the praise band from our church played 10 songs at 1st Baptist Covington and I played the drums with them....and I was worshiping the whole time.

It's not just about keeping up with the times.  To some degree, yes, it draws non-mature christians in.  I question the maturity of those who can't worship regardless of the style.  I will stand by that all day long....and I'm not 100% there either.




> Rather than bash me, how about your thoughts on the biblical ramifications?



I cannot find a single biblical ramification regarding the style of music.  I can find plenty about the heart of the one "doing" that music and plenty about the content.


----------



## Ronnie T

tween_the_banks said:


> Sir, you need to reevaluate the hip-hop scene in its entirety. For you to claim that rap is solely thug music is absurd. Give me a break.
> As I stated before it was gangsta rap that gave hip-hop a bad name.



Why in heavens name should a Christian need to evaluate the "hip-hop" scene?
A Christian has no need for the "hip-hop" scene.


----------



## Huntinfool

I think he was questioning the evaluation that rap is JUST thug music not stating that Christians have need for rap.  It goes to the heart of GAbass's statements and attitude.  

Rap was kidnapped from hip hop and is currently being held for ransom.


----------



## tween_the_banks

Huntinfool said:


> I think he was questioning the evaluation that rap is JUST thug music not stating that Christians have need for rap.  It goes to the heart of GAbass's statements and attitude.
> 
> Rap was kidnapped from hip hop and is currently being held for ransom.


Thank you


----------



## BIGJOHNA

Ronnie T said:


> Why in heavens name should a Christian need to evaluate the "hip-hop" scene?



Mr. Ronnie, with all do respect sir I'll answer this for him. It would seem that if judgement is going to be passed, whether it be the hip-hop scene or anything else....the judge should know what he is talking about. Doesn't that sound fair. Several here are condeming and judging these rappers and there style of music and it's purpose yet admittedly wont investigate/evaluate what thy are judging. The OP asked us our opinion of Christian rappers, not 2 live crew, not N.W.A., ....Christians who rap and use rap to glorify God! To me this was a setup to get us to judge another Christian. Again I say " I dont listen to rap music" but if it is used as a way to glorify God and save others then Hallelujah! Once again I say "who are we to judge"? Christ specifically tells us not to do so! Romans 14:10
You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister ? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.


----------



## Ronnie T

BIGJOHNA said:


> Mr. Ronnie, with all do respect sir I'll answer this for him. It would seem that if judgement is going to be passed, whether it be the hip-hop scene or anything else....the judge should know what he is talking about. Doesn't that sound fair. Several here are condeming and judging these rappers and there style of music and it's purpose yet admittedly wont investigate/evaluate what thy are judging. The OP asked us our opinion of Christian rappers, not 2 live crew, not N.W.A., ....Christians who rap and use rap to glorify God! To me this was a setup to get us to judge another Christian. Again I say " I dont listen to rap music" but if it is used as a way to glorify God and save others then Hallelujah! Once again I say "who are we to judge"? Christ specifically tells us not to do so! Romans 14:10
> You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister ? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.



Hopefully I haven't judged a person on this issue.
But don't forget, there is another scripture that reminds us to judge our Christian bro and sis at times but not the people of the world.

This needs to be a thought provoking discussion, not a heaven or hel l discussion.  We talk and we learn, no matter which side of the issue you stand on.


----------



## CAL

Ronnie T said:


> Why in heavens name should a Christian need to evaluate the "hip-hop" scene?
> A Christian has no need for the "hip-hop" scene.



My feelings exactly.There is no way I can relate rap or hip hop music to praising God,just can't do it.Been a Amazing Grace,Old Rugged Cross,There is Power in the Blood person all my life.Don't care for contemporary music either.Rap reminds me of a bunch of natives dancing around a fire to the beat of a drum and chanting verses that rhyme.
Am I going to H e ll because I don't care for it?I don't hardly think so and neither do I think I am alone here either.If anyone likes it and can relate God to it,more power to you.I just can't get past the drums and the fire myself.


----------



## Ronnie T

CAL said:


> My feelings exactly.There is no way I can relate rap or hip hop music to praising God,just can't do it.Been a Amazing Grace,Old Rugged Cross,There is Power in the Blood person all my life.Don't care for contemporary music either.Rap reminds me of a bunch of natives dancing around a fire to the beat of a drum and chanting verses that rhyme.
> Am I going to H e ll because I don't care for it?I don't hardly think so and neither do I think I am alone here either.If anyone likes it and can relate God to it,more power to you.I just can't get past the drums and the fire myself.



Holding the mic with one hand and their britches with the other.


----------



## BIGJOHNA

CAL said:


> My feelings exactly.There is no way I can relate rap or hip hop music to praising God,just can't do it.Been a Amazing Grace,Old Rugged Cross,There is Power in the Blood person all my life.Don't care for contemporary music either.Rap reminds me of a bunch of natives dancing around a fire to the beat of a drum and chanting verses that rhyme.
> Am I going to H e ll because I don't care for it?I don't hardly think so and neither do I think I am alone here either.If anyone likes it and can relate God to it,more power to you.I just can't get past the drums and the fire myself.



Amen to you sir! I feel the exact same way and believe we all should! The point I have tried to make is just as you say " if anyone can relate to God thru it" then we should all say amen!! Why should any of us care where or how a man/woman accepts Christ as their Savior? I mean is there a specific place in the bible that says " ONLY YOU WHO SIT IN THE 4TH PEW ON THE THIRD SUNDAY OF THE FIFTH AND EIGHTH MONTH SHALL BE REDEEEMED"? Brother I certainly hope not because I found God as I sat on a Summit climber hanging on a pine tree one Saturday morning. Guess what, I bet there's a Group of Christians judging us who say "Christian Hunters, can you imagine..... those rednecks with there guns, killing animals and they wanna claim they are doing it for Christ". Think about it, maybe that group cant get past the camo bibles or the fact that I'll be reading my bible with an arrow knocked ready to fly. Are they wrong to judge us? Yes I say!! And so does Christ! Because I can promise you, that camo bible I teach from has lead many to Christ! And today many of those who were saved thru the words written in that camo bible, now carry there on camo bible. Am I wrong for teaching from a camo bible? I mean the Mossy Oak is of this world!!! In fact it's from Mississippi! I ask again, (because according to many, if it is of this world it is wrong) is it wrong to teach from my camo bible? ..........Tell it to the Lord! My point is, it may not be what you can relate to but.... if it glorifies God than dont condemn it! It's time that we Christians stop judging each other and do as Christ intructs us to do which is to "Love thy one God and love thy Neighbor". Peace to you sir! Big John loves you!


----------



## BIGJOHNA

Ronnie T said:


> Hopefully I haven't judged a person on this issue.
> But don't forget, there is another scripture that reminds us to judge our Christian bro and sis at times but not the people of the world.
> 
> This needs to be a thought provoking discussion, not a heaven or hel l discussion.  We talk and we learn, no matter which side of the issue you stand on.



Sir, I agree with all 3 statements you have made here.
1. I dont believe you have sir. In fact I mentioned no names
2. Again you are correct but..... we are allowed to make judgement when our brothers and sisters go against God. The op didnt say " what do you think about Christian rappers who have been caught selling dope, murdering children, stealing from there spouses, etc...... In fact there was no sin connected at all.
3. Again you are correct sir. We talk and we learn! The way to learn is with an open mind and heart..... some (not you per say)have not done that during this discussion. some proclaim that they want to let there lamp shine ..... but to some of us it looks like that flame is in the middle of a hurricane sho nuff flickering and about to blow out at any second.  Now, I aint judging for the lord know's I'm not perfect...... but my Lord....  I'll pray that the lord rebukes the wind and leads myself and those to the Good book so that we may all reaquaint ourseleve's with the word! Peace!


----------



## Gabassmaster

CAL said:


> My feelings exactly.There is no way I can relate rap or hip hop music to praising God,just can't do it.Been a Amazing Grace,Old Rugged Cross,There is Power in the Blood person all my life.Don't care for contemporary music either.Rap reminds me of a bunch of natives dancing around a fire to the beat of a drum and chanting verses that rhyme.
> Am I going to H e ll because I don't care for it?I don't hardly think so and neither do I think I am alone here either.If anyone likes it and can relate God to it,more power to you.I just can't get past the drums and the fire myself.


----------



## Huntinfool

Not being able to relate to it and condemning it as of Satan are two entirely different things.

I don't really relate to it and don't listen to it much because I don't particularly like rap anymore.  But, in no way, would I put out the opinion that Christian rap is from da debil.

Y'all need to make up your minds.  Not liking it is just fine and dandy with me.  Condemning something that is godly as un-godly is borderline "get you in big trouble" kind of talk.


----------



## Gabassmaster

Huntinfool said:


> Not being able to relate to it and condemning it as of Satan are two entirely different things.
> 
> I don't really relate to it and don't listen to it much because I don't particularly like rap anymore.  But, in no way, would I put out the opinion that Christian rap is from da debil.
> 
> Y'all need to make up your minds.  Not liking it is just fine and dandy with me.  Condemning something that is godly as un-godly is borderline "get you in big trouble" kind of talk.



I aint saying nothing all i know is every time i hear it the Holy ghost says" YOU BETTER GET AWAY FROM THAT"


----------



## rjcruiser

Huntinfool said:


> Y'all need to make up your minds.  Not liking it is just fine and dandy with me.  Condemning something that is godly as un-godly is borderline "get you in big trouble" kind of talk.



Exactly what I was thinking.



Gabassmaster said:


> I aint saying nothing all i know is every time i hear it the Holy ghost says" YOU BETTER GET AWAY FROM THAT"



Hmm...you sure it is the Holy Spirit?


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



rjcruiser said:


> Hmm...you sure it is the Holy Spirit?



My thoughts exactly!


----------



## Gabassmaster

rjcruiser said:


> Exactly what I was thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm...you sure it is the Holy Spirit?





formula1 said:


> My thoughts exactly!



Yup ill keep letting HIM guide me and you keep going by your "thoughts"


----------



## rjcruiser

Gabassmaster said:


> Yup ill keep letting HIM guide me and you keep going by your "thoughts"



I wonder if the Pharisees thought they were being guided by the Holy Spirit in their condemnation/execution of Christ?


----------



## Gabassmaster

I have a challenge for everyone who is for this... Go to google images type in Christian rapper and see if any of that looks like god is in it


----------



## Huntinfool

You're right....this guy is SCARY!!!!




And these lyrics!  Man!  *Blasphemy* I tell ya!



> I need you Lord but my guilt has got me feeling so faithless
> Help me see where your face is
> Take me back to the basics
> Help me find my joy in you and not people and places
> My sin is ever before me I turned my back on you
> Oh father break and restore me to bring me back to you
> 
> Have mercy on me God according to your steady love
> Wipe away my transgression and wash me in your blood
> Create in me a clean heart renew a right spirit
> Don't take your Spirit away your Presence keep me near it
> I'm waiting patience on you Lord I know you hear my cry
> Restore your Joy in me
> For you alone I live and die




I'm tellin' ya.  You're right.  This MUST be of Satan.


----------



## rjcruiser

DC Talk for those who want to know.

Look like satan filled demons to me.


----------



## Gabassmaster

Im sure this is how everyone is your church dresses.. you know.. "God like"


----------



## Huntinfool

You would close the doors on that guy if he darkened the doors of your church?

It's a shame.  That's all I know to say.


----------



## Gabassmaster

Huntinfool said:


> You would close the doors on that guy if he darkened the doors of your church?
> 
> It's a shame.  That's all I know to say.



did i ever say that... Judgmental christians.... What a shame...


----------



## Huntinfool

You did....you just don't see it.


If he read this thread....would he seek you out to know Christ?


----------



## rjcruiser

Luke 18

 9 And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be [f]merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


----------



## Gabassmaster

Huntinfool said:


> You did....you just don't see it.
> 
> 
> If he read this thread....would he seek you out to know Christ?



I would rap him into heaven you know since God is in it


----------



## Huntinfool

Let me re-post a couple of your quotes for you...



> Im sure this is how everyone is your church dresses.. you know.. "God like"






Gabassmaster said:


> Judgmental christians.... What a shame...




You don't see it....do you?


----------



## Gabassmaster

Huntinfool said:


> Let me re-post a couple of your quotes for you...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't see it....do you?



You dont see anything with dressing like a thug do you???


----------



## Ronnie T

Gabassmaster said:


> I aint saying nothing all i know is every time i hear it the Holy ghost says" YOU BETTER GET AWAY FROM THAT"



Then you should definately stay away from it then.
One things for sure, it isn't going to affect your Christian walk(or anyone elses) one bit if you stay totally away from Christian rap and Christian rock.
The church will survive.  Our children will survive.


----------



## Huntinfool

> You dont see anything with dressing like a thug do you???


I see an issue with being immodest.  There is a clear biblical argument against that.  

No, I do not see an issue with the way that guy (Manafest is his stage name BTW) is dressed in the picture you posted.  He's wearing a shirt, a hat and a scarf.  Not an outfit I would put together for myself.  But, if anything, it is VERY modest.

You got an issue with what he's wearing I suppose?  Can you make a biblical argument?


----------



## Huntinfool

Ronnie T said:


> Then you should definately stay away from it then.
> One things for sure, it isn't going to affect your Christian walk(or anyone elses) one bit if you stay totally away from Christian rap and Christian rock.
> The church will survive.  Our children will survive.



Again...staying away from it because you prefer a different style and publicly condemning it as Satanic are two very different things....and the former will most definitely affect the church and people's "walk".


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> DC Talk for those who want to know.
> 
> Look like satan filled demons to me.



Actually, they look like three California dudes all suited up to make a music video.


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> You're right....this guy is SCARY!!!!
> 
> View attachment 612702
> 
> 
> And these lyrics!  Man!  *Blasphemy* I tell ya!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm tellin' ya.  You're right.  This MUST be of Satan.



So far this is the only one I feel comfortable about.
Listening to some of his messages and reading his bio tells me he's a dedicated Christian.
His wife and he are involved in a lot of Christian work.


----------



## Ronnie T

Gabassmaster said:


> Im sure this is how everyone is your church dresses.. you know.. "God like"



Now this is a Christian rapper appearance that the church can do without.


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> You would close the doors on that guy if he darkened the doors of your church?
> 
> It's a shame.  That's all I know to say.



No, but I'd keep my eyes on him.  
I'm not gonna let the teens go 'hangout' with him.


----------



## Gabassmaster

Ronnie T said:


> No, but I'd keep my eyes on him.
> I'm not gonna let the teens go 'hangout' with him.



X2 Ronnie


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> No, but I'd keep my eyes on him.
> I'm not gonna let the teens go 'hangout' with him.



What about if they wanted to go share the gospel with him?


----------



## Huntinfool

Ronnie T said:


> No, but I'd keep my eyes on him.
> I'm not gonna let the teens go 'hangout' with him.



He's a follower of Christ.  Why not?


----------



## Gabassmaster

Huntinfool said:


> He's a follower of Christ.  Why not?



you cant follow christ while your straddling the fence. 
if it looks like a gangster..... sings like a gangster...according to GON forum they are a follower of christ


----------



## tween_the_banks

Huntinfool said:


> You did....you just don't see it.
> 
> 
> If he read this thread....would he seek you out to know Christ?


----------



## Huntinfool

good grief....



Gabassmaster said:


> you cant follow christ while your straddling the fence.
> if it looks like a gangster..... sings like a gangster...according to GON forum they are a follower of christ




You said it well...



Gabassmaster said:


> Judgmental christians.... What a shame...


----------



## tween_the_banks

Ronnie T said:


> No, but I'd keep my eyes on him.
> I'm not gonna let the teens go 'hangout' with him.


I may be wrong and correct me if so, but are you saying, based strictly upon clothing, you wouldn't allow teens to hangout with this guy...


----------



## Huntinfool

Yes....that's exactly what he said.


----------



## Gabassmaster

one more time 
if it looks like a gangster..... sings like a gangster...according to GON forum they are a follower of christ


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> What about if they wanted to go share the gospel with him?



Absolutely, by all means.
But they might be chaparoned.


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> He's a follower of Christ.  Why not?



Because I'm an adult Christian and 
I have a responsibility to the physical and
spiritual safety of the young people and
it seems the best thing to me.

I'm reminded of the many adult Christians 
that we all need to be careful of.


----------



## Ronnie T

tween_the_banks said:


> I may be wrong and correct me if so, but are you saying, based strictly upon clothing, you wouldn't allow teens to hangout with this guy...



His clothes are definitely a red warning flag to me.
He'd have to prove himself to me first.  My responsibility would be to my teenagers first.
Hey, I might even have to do a records check of you before I'd let them hang with you.


----------



## CAL

Ronnie T said:


> His clothes are definitely a red warning flag to me.
> He'd have to prove himself to me first.  My responsibility would be to my teenagers first.
> Hey, I might even have to do a records check of you before I'd let them hang with you.



Exactly! Always better safe than later sorry.To late to close the gate once the horse is out!


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

Well, I statyed out of the clothes thing on behalf of my brother RonnieT  for the Manafest dude.  I wanted him to defend his position.  I respect his skepticism because of the dress and his responsibility to protect his youth.

Just for RonnieT, we at my home would not listen to Manafest, not because of dress, but rather because of the lack of spiritual depth in the message of the music. Plain and simple.  I check out everyone on behalf of my son and this one doesn't make the grade. At least not with the information I have so far.

Dads who allow kids to listen to this stuff should take the responsibility to check out the witness. You just should! In fact, all CCM should be checked out. The real believers will not mind a bit.


----------



## rjcruiser

formula1 said:


> In fact, all CCM should be checked out. The real believers will not mind a bit.



Totally agree 100%.  But to judge before you've even listened to it based on the style or the style of clothing...just isn't Biblical.

The Bereans searched the scriptures to prove/disprove teachers.  They researched...they didn't make blind assumptions.


----------



## rjcruiser

I'll add this.  I was talking with my mom on the way home from work today....she mentioned that she was listening to a message on Duet 6 (I think)....and the message was about God's love.  We as sinners deserve God's wrath, yet God chose to show us His love and mercy.

Why do we as Christians have such a difficult time showing sinners God's love?  Why do we want to show them God's judgement first?

Obviously, we need to call sin sin.  But come on....wearing a hat backwards isn't sin.  Having drums isn't sin.  Having a pipe organ isn't sin.  Legalism has run amock in Christianity and rather than drawing people to Christ, it is causing people to be turned off to a gospel that is similar to that of the Pharisees.


----------



## Huntinfool

Formula1,

You are exactly right.  I looked at his lyrics as well.  Very little depth and you are EXACTLY right.  Parents have a responsibility to check these things out (see the Deut 6 passage).

RJ is right as well.  Blind assumption is wrong.  In fact his last post is one of the best I've seen in a long time.  Good one buddy.


----------



## CAL

Huntinfool said:


> Formula1,
> 
> .
> 
> RJ is right as well.  Blind assumption is wrong. .



I  very well agree that blind assumption is wrong.It is much more than wearing your hat backwards.When something looks like a dog,acts like a dog,smells like a dog and walks like a dog.Most times it is a dog.That's from past experience for me not blind assumptions.


----------



## formula1

*re:*

rjcruiser, loved your posts and i agree judging by appearance is not biblical. Legalism is also killing in so many places. I am concerned deeply as well. If we'd just focus on Jesus...oh well.

God bless!


----------



## BIGJOHNA

Gabassmaster said:


> one more time
> if it looks like a gangster..... sings like a gangster...according to GON forum they are a follower of christ



Just wandering, by your standards/beliefs.......what is a Christian suppose to look like? What does the bible say I'm suppose to wear? I really need to know because I claim to be a Christian and I am now worried bout my warddrobe. Sometimes I wear jeans, sometimes Slacks, sometimes camo. Oh, you know what? Sometimes I wear shorts when I work out and there above my knee's.  Should I burn those? I mean I dont wanna be cast into eternal ****ation for wearing the wrong thing. Is there certain instruction for shoes? What about my shirts? I've got one that has a cross on it and the name of the outdoor ministry that I'm a member of.... sometimes we go into the projects of Gainesville and feed nearly 1500 sinners. Now that I think of it, I bet some of those folk are probably gangsters and thugs. I know I have hugged some of those people as I handed them a bible or a hamburger.....do you think I should throw that shirt in the dumpster? I'm so confused right now! Seriously, please help me!


----------



## rjcruiser

formula1 said:


> rjcruiser, loved your posts and i agree judging by appearance is not biblical. Legalism is also killing in so many places. I am concerned deeply as well. If we'd just focus on Jesus...oh well.
> 
> God bless!



Thanks...it is something that the Lord is working on in me.  My wife has been a great example of the fight against legalism to me.  You can probably see it in my posts over the last 3.5 years that I've been a part of this forum.  

Sometimes, you just gotta say...show me the chapter and verse.


----------



## BIGJOHNA

rjcruiser said:


> Sometimes, you just gotta say...show me the chapter and verse.



Amen Brother!


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Thanks...it is something that the Lord is working on in me.  My wife has been a great example of the fight against legalism to me.  You can probably see it in my posts over the last 3.5 years that I've been a part of this forum.
> 
> Sometimes, you just gotta say...show me the chapter and verse.



I'm reminded of several occasions in the past that I've shown you the chapter and verse for certain subjects,,,, and you still don't agree with me or the verses...... but I don't want to get into any of that.
A chapter and verse isn't always available.  Sometimes a person has to base a particular belief on what tragedy or mistakes they've seen or experienced in the past.  We all do it.  I assume your heat isn't against me right now but I've got to say that some of you are kinda 'overblasting' in you feelings towards those who don't have the liberal attitude that you have on this subject.

I believe the person is taking a very high road for the sanctity of Jesus Christ and His Lordship.  That's not a bad thing.  Is he over-reacting to the rap stuff some?  Probably.  But I also think that some of you are over-reacting in the opposite direction.

This entire subject would go away if we stopped having categories of Christian music.
Maybe it should just be Christian music rather than being Christian ___ .
If it can't be identified that way, it probably doesn't fit within Christianity.

And don't tell me that you don't make particular judgments about certain people based upon very little information about them.  You especially do that if you have a 17 year old daughter who's wanted to go out with him.  If not, you better get to doing it.


----------



## Ronnie T

This word "Legalism" has come up several times lately.
One of us need to start of thread on the subject.
I doubt it means the same to each of us.


----------



## Gabassmaster

BIGJOHNA said:


> Just wandering, by your standards/beliefs.......what is a Christian suppose to look like? What does the bible say I'm suppose to wear? I really need to know because I claim to be a Christian and I am now worried bout my warddrobe. Sometimes I wear , sometimes Slacks, sometimes camo. Oh, you know what? Sometimes I wear shorts when I work out and there above my knee's.  Should I burn those? I mean I dont wanna be cast into eternal ****ation for wearing the wrong thing. Is there certain instruction for ? What about my shirts? I've got one that has a cross on it and the name of the outdoor ministry that I'm a member of.... sometimes we go into the projects of Gainesville and feed nearly 1500 sinners. Now that I think of it, I bet some of those folk are probably gangsters and thugs. I know I have hugged some of those people as I handed them a bible or a hamburger.....do you think I should throw that shirt in the dumpster? I'm so confused right now! Seriously, please help me!



Just wear whatever you think is glorifying him, christians say well Jesus looks on the inside but they forget the world looks on the outside and if they see the church dressing like the world they are gonna call us hypocrites.
"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." (First Corinthians 6:19-20)


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> A chapter and verse isn't always available.  Sometimes a person has to base a particular belief on what tragedy or mistakes they've seen or experienced in the past.  We all do it.  I assume your heat isn't against me right now but I've got to say that some of you are kinda 'overblasting' in you feelings towards those who don't have the liberal attitude that you have on this subject.
> 
> I believe the person is taking a very high road for the sanctity of Jesus Christ and His Lordship.  That's not a bad thing.  Is he over-reacting to the rap stuff some?  Probably.  But I also think that some of you are over-reacting in the opposite direction.



I have no problem with one making decisions based on what they've dealt with/struggled with in the past.  

I have no problem with someone taking the highest road for the sanctity of Jesus Christ.

What I have a problem with is when that person says that that high road is the only road and that all others must follow that same path based on their own personal experience rather than the Word of God.



			
				RonnieT said:
			
		

> This entire subject would go away if we stopped having categories of Christian music.
> Maybe it should just be Christian music rather than being Christian ___ .
> If it can't be identified that way, it probably doesn't fit within Christianity.



This isn't a "category" of Christian music....it is the style of music.  Just like you have classical music....alternative music...traditional music...contemporary music.  All styles can be either Christian or non-Christian.



			
				RonnieT said:
			
		

> And don't tell me that you don't make particular judgments about certain people based upon very little information about them.  You especially do that if you have a 17 year old daughter who's wanted to go out with him.  If not, you better get to doing it.



I have no problem making judgements based on very little information.  I do it all the time.

But I don't judge someone to hel! on very little information.  If I'm going to go out and say that someone is not a Christian or something is from the Devil, I'm gonna make sure that I've researched it as much as possible.  Why?  Well, scripture says we are going to be judged as we judge others.  I'd hate to have God judge me based on incomplete information and a rash decision.


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## Ronnie T

In the late 60's there was an older gentleman at church who was one of the appointed Elders of the congregation.  He was a loving, gentle man.  But he was very stern in his attitude of how the church relates to people of the world.

He often spoke of the "flower child" and "Hippie" movement in America as being 'from the devil'.  He often condemned their lifestyle as having a negative affect on young Christian children.

Well, one Sunday morning (I was a teenager), shortly after services began, two young men entered through the main entrance and came into the sanctuary.  We had just finished singing a song.  These two young men worn typical hippie clothing including mocasins, long hair with a band of cloth tied around their forehead.

They nerveously walked toward the front of the isle and just flopped down, sitting on the floor with their legs crossed in front of them.

Me?  My eyes immediately searched for the old Elder.  I didn't want to miss any of what was about to happen.  And it did.  
This old gentleman stood glaring at them for a minute or two, then he made his move.  He made his way into the isle and began walking up behind them.  The church and everyone there was totally quiet..... you could almost hear the drum roll.

When the Elder reached them, he squeezed in between the two young fellows, and sat down.  He place an arm around each of them in an embrace that could have only been orchastrated by God Himself......  And worship continued, three hippies sitting on the floor.  One had to be helped up at the end of services.


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## Huntinfool

So how does that fit with what you said about "keeping an eye" on that kid if he came in your church and not letting him hang out with your kids....even though you've never met him.


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## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> So how does that fit with what you said about "keeping an eye" on that kid if he came in your church and not letting him hang out with your kids....even though you've never met him.



My comments concerning the young rapper in question wasn't to judge his heart or intent.

I said that not so much from a Christian point of view as from an adult male point of view.

Just as an adult man has to prove himself before he becomes a church leader in any way, I need to become comfortable with teenagers being placed in an uncontrolled atmosphere with another young person I'm not certain of.

You can rest assured that if your children are attending a youth lockin at my church that we are not going to allow your children to leave during the night with that young man to go to Wafflehouse.  After we have personal confidence in him things will change.

And who knows, your kids might be so disruptive that we might not allow our young people to associate with you children unsupervised.

You can try to make me look bad all you want.
I'm not like you obviously.


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## StriperAddict

Ya'll make me happy I/we don't have chrrin'  

(sorry, j/k, couldn't resist)


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## stringmusic

StriperAddict said:


> Ya'll make me happy I/we don't have chrrin'
> 
> (sorry, j/k, couldn't resist)


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## Huntinfool

> I said that not so much from a Christian point of view as from an adult male point of view.



I guess my question, though, is how do you (or CAN you) separate the two when you are a Christian?

You are a Christian male.  Not one at a time.


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## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> I guess my question, though, is how do you (or CAN you) separate the two when you are a Christian?
> 
> You are a Christian male.  Not one at a time.



I am a Christian male who would always ensure the safety of the church teenagers prior to satisfying your desire that I automatically assume that a young Christian rapper would be honorable and have Christian character.

Maybe I just take adult supervision to a higher level than huntinfool does.


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## Ronnie T

In an earlier post, I said: 

"No, but I'd keep my eyes on him. 
I'm not gonna let the teens go 'hangout' with him."

Huntinfool responded:

"He's a follower of Christ.  Why not?"


Huntinfool, are you kidding me?  You would let your teenage children just go hang out with an extremely young, famous Christian rapper?????
You really don't mean that do you?
If so, you need to reevaluate.

Now if he's married with 2 kids and his entire family were with him it might be alright.  But you cannot be so irresponsible as to allow church young people to just go hanging out with someone who hasn't proven themselves to you personally.

I hope you aren't a youth minister.


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## mtnwoman

Gabassmaster said:


> What genre on music do yall believe The devil will invade the church with since rap is so Godly what do yall consider unGodly do you have standards?



At one time it was rock'n roll, but that was before your time. Before that it was Elvis Presley. When he first came on the ed sullivan show, my grandmother and I were on the only ones in our sunday night bible study....hahahahaha. The other girls were a little older and I didn't know elvis, they all layed out to watch Elvis, I'm sure my grandmother thought they'd go to the devil....LOL....so every generation thinks that a type of music can invade the church and destroy all of Christianity. That isn't going to happen, it's all just floating down the river of entropy from decade to decade.

Hey I couldn't wear pants until I was 23 years old. Not at school, not at church and not at work. Youda thought any woman in a pair of pants was an evil evil woman.  Now look, it didn't destroy the church.


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## stringmusic

RonnieT, I am diggin' the new avatar!


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## rjcruiser

stringmusic said:


> RonnieT, I am diggin' the new avatar!





Me too.  Wonder what the folks in his sunday school class would say if they saw it


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## Huntinfool

Ronnie T said:


> In an earlier post, I said:
> 
> "No, but I'd keep my eyes on him.
> I'm not gonna let the teens go 'hangout' with him."
> 
> Huntinfool responded:
> 
> "He's a follower of Christ.  Why not?"
> 
> 
> Huntinfool, are you kidding me?  You would let your teenage children just go hang out with an extremely young, famous Christian rapper?????
> You really don't mean that do you?
> If so, you need to reevaluate.
> 
> Now if he's married with 2 kids and his entire family were with him it might be alright.  But you cannot be so irresponsible as to allow church young people to just go hanging out with someone who hasn't proven themselves to you personally.
> 
> I hope you aren't a youth minister.



Maybe we're operating under two different assumptions.  If he's truly a follower of Christ (i.e. my post), then I can make assumptions about his character.  I don't care what he wears or how he delivers his music.  Honestly, I don't know if he's a follower or not.  I don't know him (i.e. your post).

Of course I wouldn't turn my kids loose with someone I don't know.  That's common sense.  But the way you worded it, it read as if it didn't matter how well you knew him, you wouldn't let your kids hang with him....because of the way he is dressed.  You were making a statement about his trustworthyness apparently just based on his clothing.

Nothing in the post I'm quoting above addresses whether he's a follower of Christ.  My post (by default) assumed that I knew he was.  If I know that, then I don't have an issue with my kids knowing him.  "Follower of Christ" implies certain things about him and whether he's trustworthy from a biblical world view.  

You talked about whether he was married and had kids as if that makes a difference in whether you would trust him.  I know some pretty terrible people who are married and have kids.  Where does Christ enter that picture.  Follow me?

BTW....I think youth ministry is un-biblical.  Wanna start another thread and we can discuss my reasons?


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## Huntinfool

rjcruiser said:


> Me too.  Wonder what the folks in his sunday school class would say if they saw it



Probably wouldn't let their kids hang out with him...


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## rjcruiser

Huntinfool said:


> BTW....I think youth ministry is un-biblical.  Wanna start another thread and we can discuss my reasons?



Oh boy....now you're being legalistic


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## Huntinfool

Legalistic?....


....of biblical?


Scary thing is you're becoming less hardcore, and I seem to be taking up the slack!


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## rjcruiser

Huntinfool said:


> Legalistic?....
> 
> 
> ....of biblical?
> 
> 
> Scary thing is you're becoming less hardcore, and I seem to be taking up the slack!



Just like your view on home school


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## Huntinfool

My view has probably changed a good bit since the last time we talked about it.  I think you'd be surpised.


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## rjcruiser

Huntinfool said:


> My view has probably changed a good bit since the last time we talked about it.  I think you'd be surpised.



I'm curious....but in all honesty...I'm just giving you a hard time.

As far as youth groups...I think many in the way they are set up are not Biblical.  But I view it the same way as I do CCM.  It isn't music that is unBiblical.  It is the fact that the author has not stayed true to scripture in music.  Many youth groups have not stayed true to scripture in their format/teaching/discipleship/responsibility etc etc.

But to come out and say...youth groups are not Biblical...well...I'll call that spade every time.


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> I am a Christian male who would always ensure the safety of the church teenagers prior to satisfying your desire that I automatically assume that a young Christian rapper would be honorable and have Christian character.



Exactly.

My grandchildren have been to see 'one' Christian rapper. Toby Mack. My son in law checks out everything before he lets his 8 and 9 year old daughters do anything. I doubt our church will have any rappers of any kind. Just talkin' about music kids listen to outside church.

They can't watch Hannah Montana because she's a backtalker and too older minded for the girls. They can't watch most of the disney channel. Every movie they go to with me or their parents are checked out thoroughly. No violence or sexual content, not even kissing and no curse words.

We are responsible for our children and what they take in.
But we don't have to always be a Dr No. Check it out, see if it would benefit your children. It's okay to be cool, kids want to fit in.

Just say no to crack..lol I totally agree with the pants hangin' below your knees, and I don't care who they are. That's just something I don't want to see.  I'm sure nobody would wanna see a grandma in a mini skirt and tube  top.

There's good and bad of everything. Gangsta rap is something that disturbs me, in more ways than one. Some of the Christian rappers are ok, at least the ones that I've heard or should I say that I will listen to. 

I guess if you're deep into gangsta rap with all the garb they wear, and you get an induction to Christian rappers with the same garb, isn't really a bad thing. Maybe they're just sheep disguised as wolves and drops a word in the heart of an otherwise hardcore gangsta rap listener...someone else's kid whose parents don't care what they listen to.

Our old hymns were contemporary at the time they were written and it wasn't 2000 yrs ago.  I love them all, especially "He Leadeth Me", that was written in the 1800's.


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## mtnwoman

David danced naked in the streets in praise of our Lord.
I bet people told him to pull his britches up....LOL.
Do any of you think his nakedness offended anyone? Do you think our Lord cared or was offended? After all it is about the heart, right? or not?


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