# Ruth, converted Jew or grafted in Gentile?



## Artfuldodger (Dec 13, 2018)

Ruth 1:16
But Ruth replied, "Don't urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God.

Is this a shadow of Paul's revelation of the mystery/secret?

Ephesians 2:14-15
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,  15by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace…

I see a lot of the separation as being of pride and prejudice. But does Ruth 1 have anything to show  this as shadow or is she just saying to Naomi; I'll go where you go?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 13, 2018)

Maybe it's just a story of Ruth's loyalty to Naomi, just a figure of speech for that time period. Still though saying; your people will be my people and your God will be my God is strong words.

Like her loyalty is so strong that she would convert her beliefs even. Like some Protestants do when they marry a Catholic. Loyalty.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 13, 2018)

I'm going with grafted in Gentile!


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## groundhawg (Dec 13, 2018)

*Converted Jew.*


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 14, 2018)

It seems like Ruth's primary attachment was in this order; Naomi, her people, her God.


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## Spineyman (Dec 15, 2018)

That was her being grafted into the tree of Jesus, and later Jesus being born of that tree lineage. She became a true Jew not only in word but in deed as well. She gave her whole heart and soul to the task set before her!


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 16, 2018)

In Romans 11:11–24 Paul compares Israel to the natural branches of a cultivated olive tree and the Gentile believers to the branches of a wild olive tree. The natural branches (Israel) were broken off, and the wild branches (Gentiles) were grafted in (verse 17). The Gentiles, then, have been made partakers of the promises and inherit the blessings of God’s salvation.

Until?


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## Spineyman (Dec 17, 2018)

quote: artfuldodger:
*Until? *

* That is something only God knows!*

*Romans 11:19-24*

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”  20 Well _said._ Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.  21 *For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. * 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in _His_ goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.  23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.  24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who _are_ natural _branches,_ be grafted into their own olive tree?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2018)

One more verse forward tells us "until"

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

A mystery/secret?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 18, 2018)

Concerning Ruth, I can't find much on her being that devoted to God. She seems to be loyal and devoted to Naomi.
Where is her conversion? When was her effectual calling?

Most of all, why did she have to go to Bethlehem to become a Christian? I didn't have to move to Israel to become a believer.

Couldn't she do more for Christianity by staying in Moab as a believer?

Her faith? Again it appears to be to Naomi. Did she ever tell Naomi that she had an effectual calling from the Holy Spirit and now believes in her God?

I'm not saying that she didn't convert but it was for her love of Naomi more than God finding her.

She may have become one of the best Christians ever, but what if she had stayed in Moab? Where was her faith?

Would one have to leave Iran or India to have faith in God and Jesus?

I'm just not feeling this great story of faith and loyalty in God painted by many in Ruth.

Faith and loyalty to Naomi, yes. If one is trying to portray a type or shadow by their relationship then OK, but I'm not seeing Ruth as having an effectual calling.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 18, 2018)

Maybe a better question would be, did Ruth have to become Jewish? She said to Naomi, your people will be my people.

That just seems like a whole lot more than "your God will be my God."

It seems like more than Ruth becoming just a spiritual Jew. She could have stayed in Moab and become a spiritual Jew.


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## Spineyman (Dec 19, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Concerning Ruth, I can't find much on her being that devoted to God. She seems to be loyal and devoted to Naomi.
> Where is her conversion? When was her effectual calling?
> 
> Most of all, why did she have to go to Bethlehem to become a Christian? I didn't have to move to Israel to become a believer.
> ...


She did not become a christian, Christ was not born at that time. She maybe could have stayed in Moab but she chose to forsake herself and follow Naomi. She sold out lock stock and barrel. She did not just go through the motions, she sold out entirely! She lessened the pain for Naomi. If you recall the entire story, Naomi wanted to change her name to Mara, which means bitter. So God also provided Ruth to her so it would brighten her up as well, and at the same time added her into the lineage of Jesus. Talk about a saving message.


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## Spineyman (Dec 19, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe a better question would be, did Ruth have to become Jewish? She said to Naomi, your people will be my people.
> 
> That just seems like a whole lot more than "your God will be my God."
> 
> It seems like more than Ruth becoming just a spiritual Jew. She could have stayed in Moab and become a spiritual Jew.


She obviously took God seriously too. The shema.
* Deuteronomy 6:5-9 *
5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.  7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.  8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.  9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

 She also would not have met her kinsman redeemer if she stayed in Moab. Again there are no what if's in Gods redemption plan. Man makes plans but the Lord directs his steps.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> She did not become a christian, Christ was not born at that time. She maybe could have stayed in Moab but she chose to forsake herself and follow Naomi. She sold out lock stock and barrel. She did not just go through the motions, she sold out entirely! She lessened the pain for Naomi. If you recall the entire story, Naomi wanted to change her name to Mara, which means bitter. So God also provided Ruth to her so it would brighten her up as well, and at the same time added her into the lineage of Jesus. Talk about a saving message.



God choosing Ruth for the lineage of Jesus is interesting. For that reason alone she had to go to Israel. 

Then I guess or I'm trying to picture the puzzle, Ruth was a spiritual Jew and of the lineage that Jesus came from but Jesus was also a physical Jew.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> She obviously took God seriously too. The shema.
> * Deuteronomy 6:5-9 *
> 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
> 
> ...



She did have some type if conversion. She did believe and have faith in the God of Naomi.

I haven't ever delve this deep into the study of Ruth. I don't fully understand the kinsman redeemer part of that history. Ruth's kinsman redeemer was Boaz, correct?

I wonder if Ruth was a type or shadow of God's grace to the Gentiles? That somehow she was in the line of Jesus who was a Jew.
Does this in any way foreshadow Jesus being a spiritual Jew instead of a physical Jew? Maybe I'm overthinking it or reading something into it that's not there.

But if Ruth, a Gentile converted or was grafted in and became the lineage of Jesus? Does this mean Jesus was a Gentile? Isn't there other exampled of Gentiles or lineage of others that weren't Jews in Abrham's lineage?

I was thinking maybe Jacob or Joseph in Genesis. Someone married someone that wasn't a Jew.


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## Spineyman (Dec 19, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> She did have some type if conversion. She did believe and have faith in the God of Naomi.
> 
> I haven't ever delve this deep into the study of Ruth. I don't fully understand the kinsman redeemer part of that history. Ruth's kinsman redeemer was Boaz, correct?
> 
> ...



Yes indeed Boaz was her kinsman redeemer, which is a type of Jesus as our Kinsman redeemer.

I am not sure if Ruth was a picture of the gentiles being grafted in. Jesus is indeed a true Jew, and not a gentile. When Ruth swore her allegiance to God and Naomi, she no longer was a gentile but was converted from head to foot. When all is said and done we are all who call on Christ for salvation are grafted into his family.

When it's all said and done if we truly belong to  Christ we are also adopted  into His family!

* Galatians 3:29*
29 And if you _are_ Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.


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## Spineyman (Dec 19, 2018)

The entire book of the Bible is about Jesus Christ, and His relationship with His people. You can see it all points to Him. The Old Testament looks forward to Him, the New Testament looks back to Him, and the New Testament is instituted in His blood.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 26, 2018)

Question: Is a secular Jew a gentile?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 26, 2018)

gordon 2 said:


> Question: Is a secular Jew a gentile?



 I don't think so. God chose Israel as a nation to bring us the blessing. That blessing being the Messiah. I'm sure that even back then that nation was full of secular Jews. Maybe, I'm just speculating.

I don't think it made them Gentiles. Then again who were the strangers to the promises of the covenants?
Excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 26, 2018)

To me the Bible is full of physical nations and physical promises as well as spiritual nations and spiritual promises.

So maybe we have physical salvation of nations and individuals and spiritual salvation of nations and individuals.

Then somehow within scripture we try to make the physical and spiritual morph or become each other. I think that's the hard part. Reading of warnings to Jerusalem to go hide in the mountains. 
Then try to morph that into a spiritual context.

I've tried to that in my head but it never works out for me. I still see both Israels. Paul was still seeing both Israels.

Even though there is no longer Jew and Gentile, male and female, we still have all four. So maybe concerning spiritual salvation, the wall is gone but concerning physical salvation, the wall is still there.

We do still have male and female. At least for a few more years anyway. That's slowly changing as well.(lol)


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 26, 2018)

Even with the wall remove Paul was still teaching something about a difference between the Jew and Gentile. He still talked about a type of division. Even calling it a "mystery. 

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 26, 2018)

Until?

Luke 21:24
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Maybe when and as the Jews become prisoners, they became or become secular Jews.


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