# Grouse hunters



## ripplerider (Feb 4, 2016)

Those of you who would like to see renewed populations of grouse in North Ga. should check out the thread "Mtn Hunters" in the deer hunting section, read the pdf provided and comment on the link provided. Tomorrow is the last day for comments and theres a lot of special interest groups working against this project who will be commenting too so your input as hunters is needed soon. Thanks.


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## ripplerider (Feb 4, 2016)

I sure hope the 45 of you who looked at this but didnt comment at least left your comments where they count.


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## cabinetjedi (Feb 4, 2016)

Most of the comments made to the project have been from those opposed to it. Very easy to submit by following a few links.


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## Coach K (Feb 4, 2016)

Now you don't have to hunt for it.  The links are here:
Many of you are already aware of the plan to improve habitat on the Coopers Creek Watershed. If not, read this!

http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/conf/n...d=FSEPRD486937

Email your support to: comments-blueridge@fs.fed.us

My emails are sent, now I am spreading the word to anyone that hunts to send an email to usfs to start selectively harvesting timber for wildlife habitat generation.


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## tobymiller (Feb 5, 2016)

That link is broken.



Coach K said:


> Now you don't have to hunt for it.  The links are here:
> Many of you are already aware of the plan to improve habitat on the Coopers Creek Watershed. If not, read this!
> 
> http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/conf/n...d=FSEPRD486937
> ...


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## pine nut (Feb 5, 2016)

I sent in my email as well .  I don't understand the apparent lack of interest.  I used to hunt grouse and don't now because I don't want to think I might be killing the last one there.  IN the past I remember having days when I would have anywhere from one to twentythree flushes in a day!  Now it takes several days to even hear one.  Don't even get me startede on Quail and their disappearance in so much of the aleged " Quail Capitol of the world!"  Sinful!


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## ronnem (Feb 5, 2016)

*grouse*

Habitat is not the answer, in fact habitat is based on the wrong formula, prescription, receipe or whatever biologist want to call it, for 4 decades.  You cannot replace ecosystems with habitat, especially with the ruffed grouse.  It is unsustainable.  Been tried on 6 continents.  Proven wrong and will not work on North America.  Ecosystems are the answer and have been 99.9% destroyed in the states.  
Ron


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## Mossy Creek (Feb 6, 2016)

I emailed the forest service supporting. The link didn't work.


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## birddog52 (Feb 11, 2016)

I did but the usfs today doesn,t seem to care about actual wildlife mgt or timber mgt its all about putting trails& atv areas all over the mountains, or declare more usfs lands wilderness areas then they don,t have to do anything land mgt wise. Best way to get comment is email write or call your congressman or senator. Usfs is alot lack ga dnr with their public hearings they want publics comments but in the end they do what they want anyway. The comments& hearings are just away for them say well we had public comments. Maybe if trumps elected then you may see some timber cutting just a guess.


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## Rebel's Dad (Feb 11, 2016)

ronnem said:


> Habitat is not the answer, in fact habitat is based on the wrong formula, prescription, receipe or whatever biologist want to call it, for 4 decades.  You cannot replace ecosystems with habitat, especially with the ruffed grouse.  It is unsustainable.  Been tried on 6 continents.  Proven wrong and will not work on North America.  Ecosystems are the answer and have been 99.9% destroyed in the states.
> Ron



Huh?  This post is incredible to me.  A habitat IS an ecosystem.  I don't understand your position at all and can't disagree with it more strongly than I do.  Habitat is a huge part of the issue.  In the way a biologist uses the word "habitat" is the critical element in any animal's success.  Every biologist I know would support this.  It's literally Biology 101.

A coral reef is a habitat--without it many species can't survive.

Grouse cannot sustain in a mature forest with a clean understory which is what the National Forest in north Georgia has now.  They can't nest effectively and the young can't feed.  There are other issues at work down here with regard to our diminishing grouse populations but without proper habitat those other issues don't matter one little bit.  They're just more nails in the coffin.

The plan for the Chatt. NF calls for 5% ESF for the health of the forest itself, regardless of wildlife mgt.--there is less than 1% now.

I've hunted Michigan since 2001 and EVERY grouse I've killed up there has been associated to some degree with an aspen cut or other disturbance.  In other words they've been within a grouse's range of one of those cuts or disturbances.  Walk into a FS office up there wearing briar britches and they don't even ask what you want--they just hand you maps of the aspen cuts.

I invite you to come down here and walk the Chattahoochee NF.  You can go all day in those woods and not see so much as a songbird.  The habitat won't support them.  For goodness sake, the National Audubon Society supports timber management to create habitat for birds--there are small cuts in the mountains marked with signs from the Nat'l Aud. Soc. stating that the cuts are "to create habitat to benefit the cerulean warbler", which is a transient bird in our area.

As far as the proposal, if one followed the process and the changes the FS made over time you saw them cave almost fully with regard to cutting.  I sent a comment generally approving of the proposal--at least they were doing something.  But I stated in the strongest terms I could that they need to stand up and do more timber management in all areas of the forest, at all elevations and in riparian/rich cove areas.  Some of our neighboring states are doing just that and there's no reason other than being unwilling to fight the "preservationists" for it not to happen in Georgia.

Above I noted that there is less than 1% ESF on the Chatt. NF right now.  The final version of this proposal does essentially nothing to address that issue.

For what it's worth, Northgeorgiasportsman made a post about the proposal on the deer hunting section of this forum which was smart of him.  It got a lot more responses than the thread did here.  That area of GON gets more traffic.


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## pine nut (Feb 11, 2016)

Bird hunters and their dogs are a dying breed, and largely because there is nothing to hunt!  I blame the DNR.


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## birddog52 (Feb 11, 2016)

Amen brother i seen the wild quail disappear and grouse are headed that way also here in north ga.thats why have to drive 1000,s of miles to get into some decent grouse hunting. If this guy is from michigan he should know you found your best grouse numbers in and around young growth timber stands


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## Rebel's Dad (Feb 11, 2016)

pine nut said:


> Bird hunters and their dogs are a dying breed, and largely because there is nothing to hunt!  I blame the DNR.



I think the DNR could do a better job promoting small game hunting but they don't set policy for the Forest Service.  And they have done some decent work on quail cover in a few WMAs.  That kind of habitat work is very expensive and not offset by dollars from a timber sale.


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## birddog52 (Feb 12, 2016)

Ga DNR is all about  deer & turkey . Small Game hunters have been getting the short end of the stick for years. Only a very few places any small game management takes place.


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## eddevelasco (Feb 12, 2016)

email sent


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## Rebel's Dad (Feb 12, 2016)

birddog52 said:


> Ga DNR is all about  deer & turkey . Small Game hunters have been getting the short end of the stick for years. Only a very few places any small game management takes place.



I'd pretty much agree with that.  It's all about the dollars.


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## ronnem (Feb 12, 2016)

*ecosystems*



Rebel's Dad said:


> Huh?  This post is incredible to me.  A habitat IS an ecosystem.  I don't understand your position at all and can't disagree with it more strongly than I do.  Habitat is a huge part of the issue.  In the way a biologist uses the word "habitat" is the critical element in any animal's success.  Every biologist I know would support this.  It's literally Biology 101.
> 
> A coral reef is a habitat--without it many species can't survive.
> 
> ...



Habitats are subjective and defined by biologist and are MANMADE.  Ecosystems are natural.  There once was a time when there was such a thing as an ecologist who studied ecosystems, but since all indigenous natural ecosystems in the lower 48 and Hawaii have been destroyed and replaced and flooded with invasive plants, animals and insects, there is no longer a need for ecologist.  Go to the continent of Africa, Australia, or South America and you will find ecosystems and ecologists.  Intact indigenous natural ecosystems, not manmade habitat.  That is all I will say about Habitats VS Ecosystems.  

Now to say grouse cannot sustain in mature forest is to say grouse did not exist before the timber industry, WHICH IS COMPLETELY LAUGHABLE!!!!!  You could say grouse cannot sustain in mature HABITAT, that would be more along the lines of the TRUTH, but to say the other, could not be farther from the TRUTH.  The fact is grouse cannot and will not sustain in Habitats period, old or new.  To use Michigan as the example, I'll give you a fact.  The grouse population in Michigan by biologists' own pen has decreased by an average of 1% a year over the past 4 decades, how great and sustainable is that HABITAT working out.  Michigan over the past 3 decades has converted almost 300,000 acres of land into manmade jack pine Kirtland Warbler HABITAT.  I welcome you to walk any part of the that Habitat for grouse or the Warbler, CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored I'll pay you to hunt it for grouse.  Biologist claim a success! 2,000 breeding pairs of Kirtland Warblers, really 300,000 acres of habitat for 4,000 estimated birds.  Now that's laughable.  I lived and hunted in Georgia, and it is a joke.  Kudzu, Privet and everything else invasive, and you blame the lack of timbering, go ahead cut the rest down, it is merely old growth habitat anyways no need to leave it standing.  What happened to the Chestnut trees and all the pine and cypress families, and what about the Laurel.  I'll only ask you TWO questions.  WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE APPALACIAN MOUTAIN CHAIN IS LAUREL TODAY, AND WHAT PERCENTAGE WAS IT 150 YEARS AGO BEFORE THE GREAT EXPLOITAION CALLED THE TIMBER INDUSTRY?  

Good luck with your love of manmade Habitat, it's working out so great everywhere for the grouse.

Ron


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## northgeorgiasportsman (Feb 13, 2016)

ronnem said:


> Go to the continent of Africa, Australia, or South America and you will find ecosystems and ecologists.  Intact indigenous natural ecosystems, not manmade habitat.  That is all I will say about Habitats VS Ecosystems.



I'm not going to insult your intelligence, but I really think you ought to spend some time reading the definition of "habitat."  Habitats are absolutely naturally occurring and exist inside an ecosystem.  In fact, there are many different habitats inside an ecosystem.  

Habitats have been destroyed by mismanaged forests.  Mother nature did a fine job, but man interfered.  Fire was replaced by logging as the main creator of grouse habitat, but the USFS puts out all the fires and put an end to the logging, so the habitats have disappeared.  We either need a return of logging, or we need more fires.


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## Rebel's Dad (Feb 13, 2016)

northgeorgiasportsman said:


> I'm not going to insult your intelligence, but I really think you ought to spend some time reading the definition of "habitat."  Habitats are absolutely naturally occurring and exist inside an ecosystem.  In fact, there are many different habitats inside an ecosystem.
> 
> Habitats have been destroyed by mismanaged forests.  Mother nature did a fine job, but man interfered.  Fire was replaced by logging as the main creator of grouse habitat, but the USFS puts out all the fires and put an end to the logging, so the habitats have disappeared.  We either need a return of logging, or we need more fires.



This is exactly right and states things more clearly than I did.

There's been a let burn policy on the Chatt. NF for many years.  What it means is that if a fire does not threaten human life or structures, it can be allowed to burn.  This is a FS policy to help balance out the forest and keep it healthy especially in the absence of timber management.  Yet even with this policy in place not once have the people in charge of the Chatt. chosen to let a fire burn.  They all get fought and put out--at great expense.

The longleaf pine has diminished greatly not only because of logging but also because of the long-standing policy of putting out all fires.  Fire is critical to the regeneration of longleaf, something that was misunderstood for years.  Now in the longleaf forests that remain burning is prescribed.


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## birddog52 (Feb 13, 2016)

Yes you will see a few grouse in mature  old growth forest but not many &not near enough to expand the populations(i have grouse and quail hunted for forty years and have seen the grouse& quail disappear in the north ga mtns and becoming scarce in the n c mtns. Spent alot seasons  in michigan, pa maine and one in new hampshire.like all wildlife creatures there are certain habitats they thrive the best in and for grouse turkey deer& quail its not big old growth forest it takes a mixture of both. About a 75 25 mix. The reason your seeing alot  of burning on usfs lands is the fact the usfs is getting big money for fire fighting anytime they have a small fire on their lands they will drag it out for days just to make extra money to fight fire. Even the prescribed burns they are getting extra money


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## birddog52 (Feb 13, 2016)

Hi rebel that guy from Michigan must be what they call up North Heater Hunters ride the roads shoot grouse off the gravel roads > Most of them never get a 100 yards of the roads in the woods> Kinda Like guy ran into in Maine this year asked what kind dogs I had?  I told him Birddogs he asked what they do, and said find and point birds had never saw a Birddog in his life


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## Rebel's Dad (Feb 28, 2016)

birddog52 said:


> Hi rebel that guy from Michigan must be what they call up North Heater Hunters ride the roads shoot grouse off the gravel roads > Most of them never get a 100 yards of the roads in the woods> Kinda Like guy ran into in Maine this year asked what kind dogs I had?  I told him Birddogs he asked what they do, and said find and point birds had never saw a Birddog in his life



A civil disagreement among people who are concerned about our birds is one thing, but if you want to start name calling and accusing people of unethical behavior I'll thank you to leave me out of it.


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## birddog52 (Feb 28, 2016)

Nothing un ethical about it they can legally shot grouse from  the public road in maine& michigan you just cannot carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle or shoot from a vehicle> in maine on paved roads you have be be 10ft off the pavement read it your self in maine hunting regs enough said and thats the way most of those folks kill grouse not with a birddog


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## The mtn man (Feb 28, 2016)

I've shot grouse off the road in Maine with the GW having to stop behind me, I use to shoot a couple to eat here and there while deer hunting in the north woods areas. I did notice almost all grouse I seen were within a couple hundred yards of a cut, I've seen as high as 2 dozen sitting in the road in a mile stretch. I sent my email and comments like the rest of you, if our southern mtns are not gonna be burned on a regular basis, we need to get some of the big timber cut out so the sun can get to the ground for new growth, it would take no telling how many centuries for the woods to be like they were before man interfered, we don't have time for that, some species could disappear before that happens, we need to fix what we broke.


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## birddog52 (Feb 29, 2016)

You are so right got to many folks worrying about preservation and not real conversation. They think its a sin to cut a tree. Plus alot of them work for the usfs


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## Coach K (Apr 30, 2016)

From RGS (Ruffed Grouse Society) 

"Longer term changes in Ruffed Grouse abundance reflect how we have treated our woodlands and forests. There is also reason to suspect that much of the severity of the "10-year cycle" is largely a result of how we have treated forested lands. These birds depend upon the food and cover resources produced by a group of short-lived trees and shrubs growing in full sunlight which develop following the severe disturbance of forests. In earlier times, fire and windstorm were the ecological agents periodically renewing forests and creating satisfactory habitat for Ruffed Grouse and many other species of forest wildlife. Ruffed Grouse should be considered a "fire-dependent" species in the natural scheme of things.

Our current reluctance to cut forests, even under strict management plans and the suppression of fire to protect growing forests, have upset this natural sequence of events. In the early part of this century, farm abandonment and the recovery of forests from unregulated logging and fires produced habitats which probably resulted in the greatest abundance of grouse in recent times in most of the northern and northeastern United States. But as forests mature under protection from fire and cutting, they lose the habitat qualities Ruffed Grouse require. In many regions, Ruffed Grouse numbers have declined as forests have become more extensive and older.

strutting grouse, Ruffed Grouse abundance can often be readily restored by proper harvest management of forested lands, or through the judicious use of prescribed fire.

The most productive management of forested lands to benefit Ruffed Grouse can be done where aspen is part of the forest composition. The goal then is to provide a diversity of age classes of aspen to meet the food and cover requirements of these birds, in a manner consistent with their limited mobility.

The same general program can also be used in forests where aspen does not occur, but with less assurance of the response expected where aspen is present.


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## Coach K (Apr 30, 2016)

northgeorgiasportsman said:


> I'm not going to insult your intelligence, but I really think you ought to spend some time reading the definition of "habitat."  Habitats are absolutely naturally occurring and exist inside an ecosystem.  In fact, there are many different habitats inside an ecosystem.
> 
> Habitats have been destroyed by mismanaged forests.  Mother nature did a fine job, but man interfered.  Fire was replaced by logging as the main creator of grouse habitat, but the USFS puts out all the fires and put an end to the logging, so the habitats have disappeared.  We either need a return of logging, or we need more fires.



Exactly right!  I posted an RGS article below.  If Michigan has decreased bird #'s, it is because of people clearing the land to put up houses, subdivisions, shopping centers, etc.  

In GA, if we started cutting a patchwork of mature timber on a large scale throughout our national forests to create different levels of immature forest, the grouse #'s would explode because of greater "survivability" from more protective dense cover: - Kind of like the photo below!  A big ol' tree replaced by regenerating young forest growth!  (where we found this nice bird w/ others)


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