# Prayer: How to do nothing and still think you're helping



## atlashunter (Jan 16, 2011)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1072638.ece



> Praying for the health of strangers who have undergone heart surgery has no effect, according to the largest scientific study ever commissioned to calculate the healing power of prayer.
> 
> In fact, patients who know they are being prayed for suffer a noticeably higher rate of complications, according to the study, which monitored the recovery of 1,800 patients after heart bypass surgery in the US.



You'd think people might start to get it when their prayers fall flat. You'll get the same results praying to your lucky rabbits foot as praying to Jesus. And I think most christians know it which is why they take advantage of man made medical care. 

The true believers are the people who stick with prayer for healing. Like these folks:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121322824482066211.html



> The recent death from untreated diabetes of an 11-year-old Wisconsin girl has invigorated opposition to obscure laws in many states that let parents rely on prayer, rather than medicine, to heal sick children.
> 
> Dale and Leilani Neumann of Weston, Wis., are facing charges of second-degree reckless homicide after their child, Madeline Kara Neumann, died on Easter after slipping into a coma. The death, likely preventable with insulin, has renewed calls for Wisconsin and dozens of other states to strike laws that protect parents who choose prayer alone in lieu of medical treatment.



I wonder how many christians think you shouldn't be charged if your child dies because you were relying on prayer instead of man made medicine. After all, the child wouldn't have died if God wanted them to live right?


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## VisionCasting (Jan 16, 2011)

God isn't a vending machine.  Believing so is misguided.


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## atlashunter (Jan 16, 2011)

Tell that to all your brethren who believe in prayer.


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## gtparts (Jan 16, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> God isn't a vending machine.  Believing so is misguided.





atlashunter said:


> Tell that to all your brethren who believe in prayer.



Daniel 6:9-29


<sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21890">9</sup> So King Darius signed the law.
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21891">10</sup>  But when Daniel learned that the law had been signed, he went home and  knelt down as usual in his upstairs room, with its windows open toward  Jerusalem. He prayed three times a day, just as he had always done,  giving thanks to his God. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21892">11</sup> Then the officials went together to Daniel’s house and found him praying and asking for God’s help. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21893">12</sup>  So they went straight to the king and reminded him about his law. “Did  you not sign a law that for the next thirty days any person who prays to  anyone, divine or human—except to you, Your Majesty—will be thrown into  the den of lions?”
   “Yes,” the king replied, “that decision stands; it is an official law of the Medes and Persians that cannot be revoked.”
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21894">13</sup>  Then they told the king, “That man Daniel, one of the captives from  Judah, is ignoring you and your law. He still prays to his God three  times a day.”
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21895">14</sup>  Hearing this, the king was deeply troubled, and he tried to think of a  way to save Daniel. He spent the rest of the day looking for a way to  get Daniel out of this predicament.
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21896">15</sup>  In the evening the men went together to the king and said, “Your  Majesty, you know that according to the law of the Medes and the  Persians, no law that the king signs can be changed.”
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21897">16</sup>  So at last the king gave orders for Daniel to be arrested and thrown  into the den of lions. The king said to him, “May your God, whom you  serve so faithfully, rescue you.”
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21898">17</sup>  A stone was brought and placed over the mouth of the den. The king  sealed the stone with his own royal seal and the seals of his nobles, so  that no one could rescue Daniel. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21899">18</sup>  Then the king returned to his palace and spent the night fasting. He  refused his usual entertainment and couldn’t sleep at all that night.
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21900">19</sup> Very early the next morning, the king got up and hurried out to the lions’ den. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21901">20</sup>  When he got there, he called out in anguish, “Daniel, servant of the  living God! Was your God, whom you serve so faithfully, able to rescue  you from the lions?”
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21902">21</sup> Daniel answered, “Long live the king! <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21903">22</sup>  My God sent his angel to shut the lions’ mouths so that they would not  hurt me, for I have been found innocent in his sight. And I have not  wronged you, Your Majesty.”
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21904">23</sup>  The king was overjoyed and ordered that Daniel be lifted from the den.  Not a scratch was found on him, for he had trusted in his God.
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21905">24</sup>  Then the king gave orders to arrest the men who had maliciously accused  Daniel. He had them thrown into the lions’ den, along with their wives  and children. The lions leaped on them and tore them apart before they  even hit the floor of the den.
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21906">25</sup> Then King Darius sent this message to the people of every race and nation and language throughout the world:
   “Peace and prosperity to you!
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21907">26</sup> “I decree that everyone throughout my kingdom should tremble with fear before the God of Daniel.
   For he is the living God,
      and he will endure forever.
   His kingdom will never be destroyed,
      and his rule will never end.
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21908">27</sup> He rescues and saves his people;
      he performs miraculous signs and wonders
      in the heavens and on earth.
   He has rescued Daniel
      from the power of the lions.”
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21909">28</sup> So Daniel prospered during the reign of Darius and the reign of Cyrus the Persian.


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## gtparts (Jan 16, 2011)

Daniel 3:13-18 

 13 Then Nebuchadnezzar flew into a rage and ordered that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego be brought before him. When they were brought in, 14 Nebuchadnezzar said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, that you refuse to serve my gods or to worship the gold statue I have set up? 15 I will give you one more chance to bow down and worship the statue I have made when you hear the sound of the musical instruments. But if you refuse, you will be thrown immediately into the blazing furnace. And then what god will be able to rescue you from my power?”

 16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego replied, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God whom we serve is able to save us. He will rescue us from your power, Your Majesty. 18 But even if he doesn’t, we want to make it clear to you, Your Majesty, that we will never serve your gods or worship the gold statue you have set up.”


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## VisionCasting (Jan 16, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Tell that to all your brethren who believe in prayer.



Who said I don't believe in prayer? I just don't believe God is a vending machine.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 16, 2011)

God answers prayer in one of three ways.
1. Yes
2. No
3. Wait


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## stringmusic (Jan 16, 2011)

We pray for someone to heal for our own selfish will. Gods will however, will be done no matter what.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 16, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Daniel 6:9-29
> 
> 
> <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-21890">9</sup> So King Darius signed the law.
> ...



Not sure if it's ever dawned on you but quoting scripture to make your point is pretty futile in the AAA forum.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 16, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Who said I don't believe in prayer? I just don't believe God is a vending machine.



I must have missed the "God is a vending machine" claim.  Where is it?


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## stringmusic (Jan 16, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> I must have missed the "God is a vending machine" claim.  Where is it?


I found it for you....


atlashunter said:


> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1072638.ece
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 16, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I found it for you....



You're making stuff up, just as I suspected.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 16, 2011)

Nice and scientific atlashunter, but I do believe scientific method is not the cornerstone of a believer's approach.  Which means they'd  accept it on faith that praying will actually change the outcome.


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## stringmusic (Jan 16, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> You're making stuff up, just as I suspected.



I dont really know what your talking about here???? What did I make up, it was atlashunters' thread?


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## stringmusic (Jan 16, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Nice and scientific atlashunter, but I do believe scientific method is not the cornerstone of a believer's approach.  Which means they'd  accept it on faith that praying will actually change the outcome.



see post #8


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## atlashunter (Jan 16, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> God answers prayer in one of three ways.
> 1. Yes
> 2. No
> 3. Wait



So does my lucky rabbits foot.


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## atlashunter (Jan 16, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> We pray for someone to heal for our own selfish will. Gods will however, will be done no matter what.



Then why pray for something if you acknowledge your prayer won't make any difference?


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## atlashunter (Jan 16, 2011)

Is this scripture true string?

Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.


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## ambush80 (Jan 16, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> So does my lucky rabbits foot.



As well, my Magic 8 Ball.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 16, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Nice and scientific atlas hunter...



Not necessarily a good test though. It isn't possible to know what would have happened in each case without prayer, is it? 

Dont waste your time making statements that assert science and faith are at odds. I don't see it that way. Many would agree.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 16, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Is this scripture true string?
> 
> Matthew 21:22
> If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.



Scripture helps to interpret scripture. Taking one verse out of context without full revelation on a topic will get you all kinds of theologically jacked-up.


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## atlashunter (Jan 16, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Not necessarily a good test though. It isn't possible to know what would have happened in each case without prayer, is it?
> 
> Dont waste your time making statements that assert science and faith are at odds. I don't see it that way. Many would agree.



So you think by chance the people selected for prayer would have done worse than the group without prayer and god answered the prayers just enough to make things even?


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## atlashunter (Jan 16, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Scripture helps to interpret scripture. Taking one verse out of context without full revelation on a topic will get you all kinds of theologically jacked-up.



Please share the context of that scripture. We don't want to get it wrong.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 16, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> So you think by chance the people selected for prayer would have done worse than the group without prayer...:



Not what I said. I merely pointed out how this type of study is wrought with issues. And in the study co-author's words:  "But the study "did not move us forward or backward" in understanding the effects of prayer, admitted Dr Charles Bethea, one of the co-authors "

He admits the study was essentially useless. Like the OP.


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## atlashunter (Jan 16, 2011)

Well what it does show us is that prayer had no noticeable effect. Those who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of complications. Now I'm not saying that prayer had a negative effect but I'm sure if the numbers were reversed theists would be touting it as evidence that prayer worked. As Bethea said, let's call it neutral. If anything you might expect a small benefit due to the placebo effect. That there wasn't even that doesn't say much for the claims of faith healing. That christians don't appear to be at all surprised by the results of a study like this speaks volumes.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 17, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Well what it does show us is that prayer had no noticeable effect. That christians don't appear to be at all surprised by the results of a study like this speaks volumes.



Or maybe Christians just understand the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.


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## stringmusic (Jan 18, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Is this scripture true string?
> 
> Matthew 21:22
> If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.



 One will receive whatever in prayer, according to Gods' will.


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## stringmusic (Jan 18, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Then why pray for something if you acknowledge your prayer won't make any difference?



I pray for Gods' will to be done.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 18, 2011)

Even as a child, growing up in a Southern Baptist Church, I never understood why the elders of the church prayed for God's will to be done.  I'm certain they didn't mean it as "I give God my permission to do whatever God wants to do" or "I'll accept whatever God does even if I don't agree".  I can't imagine God would care if his plan offended anyone.  

God's will is already going to be done, isn't it?  The purpose of a prayer for a miracle should be for God to change his will and change the course of events.  If the course of events changes, then the prayer resulted in a miracle.  If the change in the course of events was already destined to occur, then the prayer had absolutely no effect on the outcome.


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## stringmusic (Jan 18, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Even as a child, growing up in a Southern Baptist Church, I never understood why the elders of the church prayed for God's will to be done.  I'm certain they didn't mean it as "I give God my permission to do whatever God wants to do" or *"I'll accept whatever God does even if I don't agree".*  I can't imagine God would care if his plan offended anyone.


that is the point, I dont have to agree.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 18, 2011)

What is the point of PRAYING for God's will to be done?  Will your or my prayer, or the lack thereof, in any way effect whether or not God's will will be done?  Isn't that like praying "please God, I pray that you will do whatever you are going to do"?


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## stringmusic (Jan 18, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> What is the point of PRAYING for God's will to be done?  Will your or my prayer, or the lack thereof, in any way effect whether or not God's will will be done?  Isn't that like praying "please God, I pray that you will do whatever you are going to do"?



God is not going to force His will on any of us, Christians or non-Christians alike. We have the freedom to choose our will over His and do whatever we'd like to do. I pray that doesnt happen. Its like praying " I hope that people accept your will and not there own"


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## VisionCasting (Jan 18, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> What is the point of PRAYING for God's will to be done?



To change the heart of the person praying.

Mark 14:36 - “Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will"

Christ asked for His own will (you need to understand kenosis to grasp this) - i.e. "take this cup", then fully submitted to the Father's "Yet not what I will...".  

IMHO, prayer is terribly misunderstood among Christian, the apathetic and the skeptic alike.

Like I said originally, God isn't a vending machine.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 18, 2011)

I apologize for not being specific enough.  There are many different types of prayers.  I am referring specifically to a prayer for a miracle, a divine intervention, a distinct change in the course of future events.  Our church used to gather solely for a prayer meeting, to pray for a specific miracle such as the healing of one of our church family.  

For the sake of simplicity, let me use the example of a gigantic meteor that we KNOW is headed straight toward earth.  If I am ready to go to heaven and I accept that God is in control and knows what's best, then I MIGHT just accept my fate.  I accept that it is God's will that the earth be destroyed by the meteor.  It would be impossible for a meteor to destroy all of God's children if it was not His will.  In this case, I would have no reason to pray for God to please destroy the earth, which is what I have accepted as being His "Will".

Or, I may choose to pray for a miracle.  My prayer will be for a result that is different than "God's original will".   I am praying for God to change his plan, just as many people in the Old Testament have done.  I understand that the new "changed" plan will still be God's will, but it is a different plan than the plan prior to my prayer.  My prayer is then for God's "original" will to NOT be done.


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## ambush80 (Jan 18, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> I apologize for not being specific enough.  There are many different types of prayers.  I am referring specifically to a prayer for a miracle, a divine intervention, a distinct change in the course of future events.  Our church used to gather solely for a prayer meeting, to pray for a specific miracle such as the healing of one of our church family.
> 
> For the sake of simplicity, let me use the example of a gigantic meteor that we KNOW is headed straight toward earth.  If I am ready to go to heaven and I accept that God is in control and knows what's best, then I MIGHT just accept my fate.  I accept that it is God's will that the earth be destroyed by the meteor.  It would be impossible for a meteor to destroy all of God's children if it was not His will.  In this case, I would have no reason to pray for God to please destroy the earth, which is what I have accepted as being His "Will".
> 
> Or, I may choose to pray for a miracle.  My prayer will be for a result that is different than "God's original will".   I am praying for God to change his plan, just as many people in the Old Testament have done.  I understand that the new "changed" plan will still be God's will, but it is a different plan than the plan prior to my prayer.  My prayer is then for God's "original" will to NOT be done.



How do you reconcile any of this with God's omniscience?


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## HawgJawl (Jan 18, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> How do you reconcile any of this with God's omniscience?



I can't.

Throughout the Old Testament there are examples of God threatening to take a certain action if humans do or don't do something, and examples of God changing his mind.  It is clear to me that there is no way God knows the future.  But why would God want to create a system in which he would know the future?  I'm not trying to limit God's ability in any way by saying this.  What I'm saying is there would be no point to any of this if God did know the future.  Why would the angels in heaven rejoice when a soul is saved if it was already known and we were just following a script?


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## atlashunter (Jan 18, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> What is the point of PRAYING for God's will to be done?  Will your or my prayer, or the lack thereof, in any way effect whether or not God's will will be done?  Isn't that like praying "please God, I pray that you will do whatever you are going to do"?



Exactly! String already said God's will is going to be done no matter what so why is he praying for it?

Besides, what string is saying is complete nonsense because according to the bible, Jesus' prayers did carry with them consequences. When his disciples were unable to cast out a demon he told them it was due to their lack of prayer. He makes clear that prayer can change outcomes. It isn't simply a matter of God's will being done regardless which would render prayer ineffective and irrelevant. So the question remains, where is the evidence claimed in the bible that prayer works?


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## VisionCasting (Jan 18, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> .Why would the angels in heaven rejoice when a soul is saved if it was already known and we were just following a script?



Are you a father?  When I drive into the driveway at the end of the work day and see my son in the window waving, I know that he's about to sing the 'daddy is home' song, greet me at the door, give me a hug and tell me that he loves me.

Do you think my knowing what is to come in ANY way diminishes the joy that experience brings to me?


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## stringmusic (Jan 19, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Exactly! String already said God's will is going to be done no matter what so why is he praying for it?





stringmusic said:


> *God is not going to force His will on any of us, Christians or non-Christians alike.* We have the freedom to choose our will over His and do whatever we'd like to do. I pray that doesnt happen. Its like praying " I hope that people accept your will and not their own"






> So the question remains, where is the evidence claimed in the bible that prayer works?






> He makes clear that prayer can change outcomes




I think you answered your own question.


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## ambush80 (Jan 19, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Are you a father?  When I drive into the driveway at the end of the work day and see my son in the window waving, I know that he's about to sing the 'daddy is home' song, greet me at the door, give me a hug and tell me that he loves me.
> 
> Do you think my knowing what is to come in ANY way diminishes the joy that experience brings to me?


 
You don't KNOW that he's going to do it.  Besides, you haven't forseen it nor designed it.  There's a difference.  It's the "Ice cream or broccoli" argument.


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## atlashunter (Jan 19, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I think you answered your own question.



You contradict yourself.


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## stringmusic (Jan 19, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You contradict yourself.



I think Gods' personal will for me may be different from the over all will of humankind. I did contradict myself, because I really dont fully understand God knowing the future and still giving us free will. I spoke to quickly.


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## gtparts (Jan 19, 2011)

One needs to understand that prayer is not some magical solution to a problem or issue. In part, as we have examined here, we are speaking of petition. God loves hearing from His children, especially when they recognize the limitations of the physical and ask for His intervention in His supernatural way. 

Also, God is not obligated to change those things that we ask for just because we ask. Just as our physical ability to alter events to comply with our will is limited, so is our perspective of the event limited also. 

God has altered the course of events because of our petition and we may give Him credit for doing so, but we will never know absolutely that He did, this side of heaven unless He reveals that to us. 

I have no problem petitioning God for the things I believe would be the desirable outcome. I also know that what I believe would be the desirable outcome, may not be the best in terms of the "big picture".

Many times I do not see the purpose in how things develop and are resolved. Since God has the final say in all things, I have the faith to accept them.

Expressing myself to my Father is a natural part of our relationship. It is not necessary or possible to understand all the whys and hows. I do know He can be trusted.  That is enough.


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## atlashunter (Jan 19, 2011)

gtparts said:


> One needs to understand that prayer is not some magical solution to a problem or issue. In part, as we have examined here, we are speaking of petition. God loves hearing from His children, especially when they recognize the limitations of the physical and ask for His intervention in His supernatural way.



I'm sympathetic to this viewpoint. It makes people feel better to pray to an all powerful parent figure even if it doesn't get any supernatural results. I would say that it is claimed to be a magical solution to the extent that christians claim miracles resulting from prayer and we both know they claim this all the time.




gtparts said:


> Also, God is not obligated to change those things that we ask for just because we ask. Just as our physical ability to alter events to comply with our will is limited, so is our perspective of the event limited also.



The scriptures I've quoted I think promise more results from prayer than what we see delivered. Make of that what you will.




gtparts said:


> God has altered the course of events because of our petition and we may give Him credit for doing so, but we will never know absolutely that He did, this side of heaven unless He reveals that to us.



Actually I think to whatever extent prayers were answered, meaning they changed the normal course of events, that could be seen and recorded. Not at the level of an individual prayer or event but on larger scales. If prayer really worked then it would cause a statistically visible difference between the results of those who pray and those who don't. You might see lower incidence of sickness or accidents, greater incidence of recoveries, etc. Auto insurers could offer a prayer discount if it really lowered your risk. Same with all other forms of insurance. That would be true even if God only answered some but not all prayers.




gtparts said:


> I have no problem petitioning God for the things I believe would be the desirable outcome. I also know that what I believe would be the desirable outcome, may not be the best in terms of the "big picture".
> 
> Many times I do not see the purpose in how things develop and are resolved. Since God has the final say in all things, I have the faith to accept them.



I've seen too many tragedies in this world to agree with that. Things do not always work out for the best, even for Christians. It's hard to reconcile that with a loving, omnipotent/omniscient god. Much easier to reconcile the reality of this world with the possibility that said god simply doesn't exist.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 19, 2011)

gtparts said:


> God is not obligated to change those things that we ask for just because we ask. Just as our physical ability to alter events to comply with our will is limited, so is our perspective of the event limited also.
> 
> God has altered the course of events because of our petition and we may give Him credit for doing so, but we will never know absolutely that He did, this side of heaven unless He reveals that to us.



The percentage of success in prayer is not the point.  All we need is one single time in history when prayer resulted in God changing his plan or changing his mind.  With that one example, we can clearly see that the future is not carved in stone and can not be KNOWN by God because He hasn't made up his mind completely on every single thing.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 19, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Are you a father?  When I drive into the driveway at the end of the work day and see my son in the window waving, I know that he's about to sing the 'daddy is home' song, greet me at the door, give me a hug and tell me that he loves me.
> 
> Do you think my knowing what is to come in ANY way diminishes the joy that experience brings to me?



The rejoicing that results from a soul being saved is due to the victory over the devil for that person's soul.  A victory that would incite rejoicing could be compared to watching (in real-time) your favorite team win over it's arch rival.  If it were already known, it would be closer to watching a movie about a game that you wrote, directed, and produced, and obviously know the ending.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 19, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> The percentage of success in prayer is not the point.


Ah, so quality of prayer is more important than quantity.  Just think, I was going to get this tapestry for my mom.








HawgJawl said:


> All we need is one single time in history when prayer resulted in God changing his plan or changing his mind.



I hear ya.  I'd love to know one single time in history when prayer resulted in anything.



HawgJawl said:


> With that one example, we can clearly see that the future is not carved in stone and can not be KNOWN by God because



Guess I'd better hold off on this air freshener then:







HawgJawl said:


> He hasn't made up his mind completely on every single thing.



Cool, I always wondered if God had a mind.  Can you give me the book, chapter, and verse that refers to God having a mind?  Thanks in advance!


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## ted_BSR (Jan 19, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Ah, so quality of prayer is more important than quantity.  Just think, I was going to get this tapestry for my mom.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You really crack me up. Seems like you got it all figured out, all scientifically reasoned to a never lose argument. So why waste your time here?  Who are you trying to convince?


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## gtparts (Jan 20, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> You really crack me up. Seems like you got it all figured out, all scientifically reasoned to a never lose argument. So why waste your time here?  Who are you trying to convince?



Ted, six and the others are trying to convince each other. They are the ones who have the doubts. The two elements that are consistent are 1) to mock those who believe in God and 2) to find some justification of their doubt through the company of like-minded doubters. They don't want to believe because then they would be accountable. God hasn't failed them; they have failed God and their miserable lives (that lack purpose) cause them to lash out at those who find joy and purpose in their relationship to God.


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## dexrusjak (Jan 20, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Ted, six and the others are trying to convince each other. They are the ones who have the doubts. The two elements that are consistent are 1) to mock those who believe in God and 2) to find some justification of their doubt through the company of like-minded doubters. They don't want to believe because then they would be accountable. God hasn't failed them; they have failed God and their miserable lives (that lack purpose) cause them to lash out at those who find joy and purpose in their relationship to God.



Pot to kettle: "You're black!"


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## drippin' rock (Jan 20, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Ted, six and the others are trying to convince each other. They are the ones who have the doubts. The two elements that are consistent are 1) to mock those who believe in God and 2) to find some justification of their doubt through the company of like-minded doubters. They don't want to believe because then they would be accountable. God hasn't failed them; they have failed God and their miserable lives (that lack purpose) cause them to lash out at those who find joy and purpose in their relationship to God.



Thank you for knowing that a group of people with different views from your own MUST be miserable.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 20, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Ted, six and the others are trying to convince each other. They are the ones who have the doubts. The two elements that are consistent are 1) to mock those who believe in God and 2) to find some justification of their doubt through the company of like-minded doubters. They don't want to believe because then they would be accountable. God hasn't failed them; they have failed God and their miserable lives (that lack purpose) cause them to lash out at those who find joy and purpose in their relationship to God.



Yep, you figured me out.  I, for some reason or other, have my doubts about the book that opens up with the talking snake as a guide to all that is true.  How miserable I am.  

In all seriousness, if you must know or might care, life got a lot better when I gave up all pretenses of belief.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 20, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Yep, you figured me out.  I, for some reason or other, have my doubts about the book that opens up with the talking snake as a guide to all that is true.  How miserable I am.
> 
> In all seriousness, if you must know or might care, life got a lot better when I gave up all pretenses of belief.



I am certain it got easier. I am not certain about your misery, but maybe I am.

My point is that you won't change a believer's mind with your rhetoric/logic/reasoning, so why do you bother?


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## ted_BSR (Jan 20, 2011)

In the interest of not further hi-jacking a thread, I started a new one here: http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=5710042#post5710042


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## atlashunter (Jan 20, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Ted, six and the others are trying to convince each other. They are the ones who have the doubts. The two elements that are consistent are 1) to mock those who believe in God and 2) to find some justification of their doubt through the company of like-minded doubters. They don't want to believe because then they would be accountable. God hasn't failed them; they have failed God and their miserable lives (that lack purpose) cause them to lash out at those who find joy and purpose in their relationship to God.



Sounds like something a cult member would say when faced with a rational challenge to their beliefs.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 20, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> I am certain it got easier.



I didn't say it got easier.  I said it got better.



ted_BSR said:


> I am not certain about your misery, but maybe I am.



I hope you don't feel like you have to worry about my level of happiness.


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## gtparts (Jan 21, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> Pot to kettle: "You're black!"


Clever quip, there. I offer a solution to your lack of purpose and a direction that leads to eternal life. You offer me despair to replace the joy of knowing and being known by God. I was black. Now, I am forgiven.





drippin' rock said:


> Thank you for knowing that a group of people with different views from your own MUST be miserable.



You are welcome. I just report what I see in the lives of the lost and what I use to experience when I was there myself.



Six million dollar ham said:


> Yep, you figured me out.  I, for some reason or other, have my doubts about the book that opens up with the talking snake as a guide to all that is true.  How miserable I am.
> 
> In all seriousness, if you must know or might care, life got a lot better when I gave up all pretenses of belief.



I, too, gave up the pretenses. I found the Truth, the Way, and the Life, that I believe in and share as often as possible. 



atlashunter said:


> Sounds like something a cult member would say when faced with a rational challenge to their beliefs.



On the face of it, when one only looks at passion, it is difficult to tell between one who is zealous and deceived and one who is zealous and holds the truth. I suppose it is only reasonable for you to assume that all fervency is rooted in gullibility. Wrong.... but reasonable to you.
There is no equivalency, as your post would suggest.


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## dexrusjak (Jan 21, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Clever quip, there. I offer a solution to your lack of purpose and a direction that leads to eternal life. You offer me despair to replace the joy of knowing and being known by God. I was black. Now, I am forgiven.



Thank you for assuming that my life lacks purpose, but you could not be more wrong.  I find purpose in loving and caring for my wife and daughter.  I find purpose in my career, my friends, my hobbies, and working towards achieving my goals and dreams.  I do not find purpose in speaking to imaginary friends, telling other human beings that they are destined for an eternity of suffering, or gaining insight into the human condition by reading an ancient text written by ignorant men and compiled by power-crazed and agenda-driven individuals.  In these avenues, I find no purpose.  If you do, more power to you.  As for eternal life, that's just delusional.  But if it helps you sleep at night, fine.  

I offer no dispair.  In fact, I couldn't care less what you choose to believe.  To each his own.


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## atlashunter (Jan 21, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Clever quip, there. I offer a solution to your lack of purpose and a direction that leads to eternal life. You offer me despair to replace the joy of knowing and being known by God. I was black. Now, I am forgiven.



Why despair? Do you really need to believe in a god to find purpose and meaning in your life? If the reality was that eternal life is a fantasy would you prefer to spend your life believing a lie because it made you feel good or would you prefer to face and accept reality as it is?




gtparts said:


> On the face of it, when one only looks at passion, it is difficult to tell between one who is zealous and deceived and one who is zealous and holds the truth. I suppose it is only reasonable for you to assume that all fervency is rooted in gullibility. Wrong.... but reasonable to you.
> There is no equivalency, as your post would suggest.



Once again you prove my point. You have the truth. Anyone who challenges your ideas on rational grounds is just stubbornly refusing to acknowledge what they really do know to be the truth. In other words, your beliefs are not falsifiable.


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## dexrusjak (Jan 21, 2011)

gtparts said:


> You are welcome. I just report what I see in the lives of the lost and what I use to experience when I was there myself.



I would love to know what an insightful person such as yourself could see in my life to make you believe it to be miserable.  Possibly my loving wife, happy and healthy daughter, well-paying and fulfilling job, comfortable house, dependable vehicles, meaningful friendships, quality education, ability to sleep in peace every night, and wonderful relationships with all family members immediate and extended are factors that make my life miserable.  However, if my life is miserable, then all of humanity should be so lucky.


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## gtparts (Jan 21, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> Thank you for assuming that my life lacks purpose, but you could not be more wrong.  I find purpose in loving and caring for my wife and daughter.  I find purpose in my career, my friends, my hobbies, and working towards achieving my goals and dreams.  I do not find purpose in speaking to imaginary friends, telling other human beings that they are destined for an eternity of suffering, or gaining insight into the human condition by reading an ancient text written by ignorant men and compiled by power-crazed and agenda-driven individuals.  In these avenues, I find no purpose.  If you do, more power to you.  As for eternal life, that's just delusional.  But if it helps you sleep at night, fine.
> 
> I offer no dispair.  In fact, I couldn't care less what you choose to believe.  To each his own.



Just curious, but why would you bother to love and care for your wife and daughter? According to you they are just dead people walking, worm bait, a minor cosmic accident. Career? In all probability, if this old world keeps spinning another 200 years, not only will there be no one alive who knew you, but no one who knows or cares what you did. Die today and someone else will supplant whatever position you filled in the economy career-wise within weeks, if not days or hours. Friends? The ones who affirm you in order to receive affirmation from you? The ones who would abandon you if it were not for what they themselves get out of that relationship? How sad!

The truth is your life is built on "I", "me", "my". There is not one thing that can't be taken away from you, leaving you hollow and empty, a bankrupt soul without family, friends, career, hobbies, goals, or dreams. Ultimately, you will not retain one thing of eternal value. You build on sand, my friend. 

Yeah, I know. When you are dead it won't matter to you, or so you think. I guess when you adopt the notion that there is nothing that can or will change that event, you would have to convince yourself that mortality is somehow acceptable on your terms. I'm just saying there is more to life and you are throwing it away, in the present and in eternity.

But if it helps you sleep at night, sleep well. It will not comfort you in eternity.


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## atlashunter (Jan 21, 2011)

The most important question IMO is not what makes you feel good but what is true. The results of this prayer study don't show the faith healing claims of christians to be true. I know it's a real stretch but _maybe_ some of the other claims theists make also aren't true.


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## gtparts (Jan 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Why despair? Do you really need to believe in a god to find purpose and meaning in your life? If the reality was that eternal life is a fantasy would you prefer to spend your life believing a lie because it made you feel good or would you prefer to face and accept reality as it is?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You have the cart before the horse.
Because God is, there is purpose. Without Him, life is a meaningless period of sentient vapor. Completely pointless. A random occurrence of finite length. In the enormity of time, there is nothing to give a godless existence any value. 

Why do you continue to use your concept of rationality to examine those things that are apart from the natural?   

When a proposition in not falsifiable, it means it cannot be scientifically tested. It does not mean the proposition is wrong.


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## dexrusjak (Jan 21, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Just curious, but why would you bother to love and care for your wife and daughter? Your question implies that the only reason you bother loving and caring for another person is because of your Christian beliefs.  In other words, your question implies that you love and care for others because you have to.  I "bother" to love and care for my wife and daughter because that, my friend, is the purpose of life -- spending time with, loving, and caring for one's fellow human, especially those closest to one.  Is your purpose of "loving" an invisible being more noble than my purpose of loving my family? According to you they are just dead people walking, worm bait, a minor cosmic accident. Please indicate where I have ever said this. In the grand scheme of all of existence in all of time and space, we are all simply matter.  But I do not live in a state of mind of all of existence in all of time and space.  I live in a state of mind of the here and the now, the people I can know and influence and be influenced by.  That's reality.  In reality, those closest to me are far from your disgusting description.  They are my world. Career? In all probability, if this old world keeps spinning another 200 years, not only will there be no one alive who knew you, but no one who knows or cares what you did. Irrelevant.  I live in the here and the now.  Plus, I don't go to work for the vain purposes of having others know and care what I do.  I do what I do because I enjoy it, because it helps others, and because it provides for me and my family. Die today and someone else will supplant whatever position you filled in the economy career-wise within weeks, if not days or hours. They will be fortunate to hold such a position.  What's your point? Friends? The ones who affirm you in order to receive affirmation from you? The ones who would abandon you if it were not for what they themselves get out of that relationship? I don't know who your friends are, but clearly you have not met mine. How sad! for you
> 
> The truth is your life is built on "I", "me", "my"  True -- my family, our happiness, peace, joy, and contentment. There is not one thing that can't be taken away from you, leaving you hollow and empty, a bankrupt soul without family, friends, career, hobbies, goals, or dreams The same can be said for you, friend.. Ultimately, you will not retain one thing of eternal value And neither will you or anyone else because in the end all of us will cease to exist.  Like it or not, that is reality.. You build on sand, my friend And you build on fantasy.  Your foundation does not exist..
> 
> ...



Comments in blue.


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## gtparts (Jan 21, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> I would love to know what an insightful person such as yourself could see in my life to make you believe it to be miserable.  Possibly my loving wife, happy and healthy daughter, well-paying and fulfilling job, comfortable house, dependable vehicles, meaningful friendships, quality education, ability to sleep in peace every night, and wonderful relationships with all family members immediate and extended are factors that make my life miserable.  However, if my life is miserable, then all of humanity should be so lucky.



You are undoubtedly the exception. Your life is perfect. You have acquired for yourself all the things needed for a completely fulfilled life and numbed the real emptiness that is in your heart. Things have brought you ultimate contentment.

Tell me, if, like Job, you lost all, would you curse the God you do not believe in or just shrug it off and say, "Que sera, sera"? Could you, would you start over with a cheerful heart? Or are you so invested in this world, that you be devastated, crushed, and forever broken?


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## gtparts (Jan 21, 2011)

> In other words, your question implies that you love and care for others because you have to.



Conjecture. Love is a choice. It is only evidenced in application. I choose to love and demonstrate it.




> Is your purpose of "loving" an invisible being more noble than my purpose of loving my family?



More noble? Not sure that is applicable. In prioritizing, God alone is worthy.

In response to my statement:
"According to you they are just dead people walking, worm bait, a minor cosmic accident."



> Please indicate where I have ever said this. In the grand scheme of all of existence in all of time and space, we are all simply matter. But I do not live in a state of mind of all of existence in all of time and space. I live in a state of mind of the here and the now, the people I can know and influence and be influenced by. That's reality. In reality, those closest to me are far from your disgusting description. They are my world.



I would direct you to your second sentence. Here, I'll highlight it for you.

From the balance of your responses, it is clear that you have found an answer that leaves you satisfied, comfortable with your position, and have ruled out the possibility that you are wrong.  I am honored to be on a forum with someone whose track record for being right is immaculate, justifying his rejection of the possibility of a creator/god or a life after death. 

I readily admit my doubts, but have found in His time and at His good pleasure, reason to trust Him even when I weak in my faith. God has never failed me. He has seen me through many rough times, and each time He strengthens me. I guess you will just have to rely on yourself.


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## dexrusjak (Jan 21, 2011)

gtparts said:


> You are undoubtedly the exception. Your life is perfect. (Where did I say this?) You have acquired for yourself all the things needed for a completely fulfilled life and numbed the real emptiness that is in your heart (I am absolutely amazed by the arrogance of Christians such as yourself who claim to know the condition of my "heart".  Just because you felf "emptiness" before your conversion, don't assume that there is anything empty in my life.  There isn't.). Things have brought you ultimate contentment. (Things do not bring me ultimate contentment.  Enjoying life does.  Enjoying relationships with people, enjoying playing ball, fishing, building, making, pondering, playing, singing, driving, golfing, eating, laughing, resting, and working bring me contentment.  Living life in reality is a beautiful thing.)
> 
> Tell me, if, like Job, you lost all, would you curse the God you do not believe in (Of course I would not curse your god. Neither would I curse Allah, Santa Claus, or the Easter Bunny.  They don't exist.) or just shrug it off and say, "Que sera, sera"? (I would recognize that in life sometimes bad things happen.  They happen to us all.  I would handle tragedy in the same way as most anyone -- mourning loss, seeking comfort from others, and eventually picking up and trudging along.) Could you, would you start over with a cheerful heart? (I would always be saddened by my loss, but eventually I believe I could once again find joy.) Or are you so invested in this world, that you be devastated, crushed, and forever broken? (If you would not be "devastated" and "crushed" by the loss of loved ones, then I question whether or not they were truly "loved".)



Response in blue.


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## dexrusjak (Jan 21, 2011)

gtparts said:


> From the balance of your responses, it is clear that you have found an answer that leaves you satisfied (yes), comfortable with your position (yes), and have ruled out the possibility that you are wrong (No. I readily and openly admit that I may be wrong. But, like you, I believe very strongly that I am right. Is there a chance that Christianity is true? Yes. Is it, in my opinion, a chance that is so slim that it should be wholely ignored? Yes.). I am honored to be on a forum with someone whose track record for being right is immaculate, (I find your sarcasm unwaranted. It is the lowest form of humor, you know.) justifying his rejection of the possibility of a creator/god or a life after death. (I apologize for being unclear before. I do not reject the possibility of a creator/god. I do reject the probability of a creator/god.)
> 
> I readily admit my doubts (Me too.), but have found in His time and at His good pleasure, reason to trust Him even when I weak in my faith. God has never failed me. He has seen me through many rough times, and each time He strengthens me. I guess you will just have to rely on yourself.



Blue.


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## gtparts (Jan 21, 2011)

> I find your sarcasm unwaranted. It is the lowest form of humor, you know.



No humor intended. Just letting you know how part of your post came across. As I recall, you dealt "poorly" with the passing of a young lady, cousin, I believe? Just wondered what or who you would lean on in future times of grief?

By the way, did you bring those relatives "up to speed" on your desertion of the faith?


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## dexrusjak (Jan 21, 2011)

gtparts said:


> No humor intended. Just letting you know how part of your post came across. As I recall, you dealt "poorly" with the passing of a young lady, cousin, I believe? Just wondered what or who you would lean on in future times of grief?
> 
> By the way, did you bring those relatives "up to speed" on your desertion of the faith?



Wow.  Good memory.  She died of a brain tumor.  Very sad, but death is a part of life.  I don't know that I dealt "poorly" with her death, but it was one factor in my deconversion, which actually brings us back to this thread's original post.  I, and hundreds of other devout Christians, prayed and prayed and prayed and fasted and fasted and fasted and then watched as she suffered and wasted away before our very eyes.  It wasn't her death that devastated me; it was the meaningless suffering.  God, if one existed, could have taken all that away but chose not to.  At the time, I could not understand why my loving Heavenly Father would let one of His precious children suffer like that.  Now I know -- because my belief in such a being was false.  I am so happy that my eyes were eventually opened to the truth that the god of Christianity is merely a figment of the imaginations of otherwise sane, intelligent, and good people such as yourself.

As for filling in my relatives, I have told some relatives; others I have not, but I think they all know.


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## atlashunter (Jan 21, 2011)

gtparts said:


> You have the cart before the horse.
> Because God is, there is purpose. Without Him, life is a meaningless period of sentient vapor. Completely pointless. A random occurrence of finite length. In the enormity of time, there is nothing to give a godless existence any value.



Value is subjective and relative. The word itself applies to the living. As long as I am living I do find value in my own life, the lives of others, and the lives of those who came before and made the world a better place for all of us. I find purpose in trying to follow that example and leave the world a better place for future generations. If I can do that then my life holds value both in the present and the future, even after I'm long forgotten. Plus I see value in enjoying the many pleasures I can enjoy in the short time I exist. There is very strong reasons to think we are finite beings, none to think otherwise. Facing our mortality isn't easy but at least it is honest and I think doing so is healthier than convincing yourself and others of a comforting fantasy. Having a limited amount of time makes that time more precious and valuable, not worthless.




gtparts said:


> Why do you continue to use your concept of rationality to examine those things that are apart from the natural?



The claim of faith healing is a claim made about the natural world. In other words if it is true then the evidence (healing) is observable to us, even if the mechanism behind it is not. The evidence to support the claim is absent. This holds true for a great many claims the bible makes.

Also rationality can be used to deal with not only what can be scientifically tested but also what is or isn't logical.




gtparts said:


> When a proposition in not falsifiable, it means it cannot be scientifically tested. It does not mean the proposition is wrong.



You're right. But being unfalsifiable is the best defense of a lie. Fortunately because some of the claims of the theist do apply to the natural we can test them. It doesn't prove or disprove the unfalsifiable claims such as heaven, eternal life, etc but it does at least shed some light on the fallibility of theist claims.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 23, 2011)

*The object of prayer*

I read this quote earlier and it resonated with me, thought I'd share it...  Have a great evening all.

"True prayer is not a mere mental exercise, nor a vocal performance, but it is far deeper than that - it is spiritual communication with the Creator of heaven and earth.  God is a Spirit unseen of mortal eye and only to be perceived by the inner man; our spirit within us, begotten by the Holy Gost at our regereration.  *Prayer is a spiritual business from beginning to end, and it's aim and object end not with man, but reach to God Himself*" - Charles Spurgeon


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## dexrusjak (Jan 28, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> I read this quote earlier and it resonated with me, thought I'd share it...  Have a great evening all.
> 
> "True prayer is not a mere mental exercise, nor a vocal performance, but it is far deeper than that - it is spiritual communication with the Creator of heaven and earth.  God is a Spirit unseen of mortal eye and only to be perceived by the inner man; our spirit within us, begotten by the Holy Gost at our regereration.  *Prayer is a spiritual business from beginning to end, and it's aim and object end not with man, but reach to God Himself*" - Charles Spurgeon



I found this cartoon earlier and it resonated with me, thought I'd share...

http://www.atheist-community.org/atheisteve/?id=75


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## gtparts (Jan 28, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> I found this cartoon earlier and it resonated with me, thought I'd share...
> 
> http://www.atheist-community.org/atheisteve/?id=75



My heart goes out to Tracie and, as to your comment about memory in an earlier post, one becomes familiar with the stories of those for whom one prays.

As to the cartoon, the top panels and the bottom left are representative of the damage sin has and continues to exact on all creation. The bottom right is representative of some  Christians, perhaps most. It does, however, paint only one event that only illustrates a shallow attitude toward prayer. It does not, cannot delve into the character and nature of all people of prayer. Keep in mind that a huge number of Christians that pray are also involved in relieving the tragic nature and consequences of the other three panels, on a voluntary basis; not to pat any one on the back, but to give a more balanced perspective.

Praying that God blesses you today and every day and that you will come to recognize it for yourself.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 28, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> I found this cartoon earlier and it resonated with me, thought I'd share...
> [/url]



It's funny.  Not in a 'ha-ha' sense, but in the irony of the fundamental misunderstanding of prayer, and of the world.  

If this is a core struggle of your (discerning why a loving God would "allow" bad things to happen) try reading CS Lewis' "The Problem of Pain".


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