# Religions with levels/tiers/heavens?



## Artfuldodger (Nov 28, 2016)

Do most religions have different levels or tiers than one must bridge before going to the next?

Such as levels of consciousness, spiritual states, etc.

Christianity has three heavens but they represent the atmosphere, outer space , and the home of God. Within Christianity you are either in or out. There is only one level while one can progress to being more like Jesus within that one level. One can progress spiritually within that one and only level.

That's different than having to attain one level in order to go to the next degree such as degrees of glory.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 28, 2016)

Levels of faith

Levels of spirituality

Levels of consciousness

Levels of one's state

To me they sound like "works" but what is faith without works? I guess maybe we all have different "levels" as we progress. Some religions have more structured levels than Christianity. 

Like, you can't reach the next level until you graduate from this level. 

The concept is to become as close to God as possible. Unity. One starts out as "I", then I and God, God and I, God in me, me in God.

Unity, Oneness. Perhaps a continuing journey but without levels.


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## NE GA Pappy (Nov 28, 2016)

how do you feel the rewards will be passed out?  all equal or according to your works?  is there varying levels of punishment in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored


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## welderguy (Nov 29, 2016)

NE GA Pappy said:


> how do you feel the rewards will be passed out?  all equal or according to your works?  is there varying levels of punishment in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored



Excellent question.
NEpappy, what are your thoughts on this?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2016)

Within Christianity would you say there will be various degrees of rewards and punishment? These would have to be based  on our works. 
Would these works we are judged, concerning Christians, start after our conversion? Meaning that Christians aren't judged on their works before conversion.

Will people who never convert receive various degrees of punishment? 

When do the rewards and punishment start? Now or the afterlife?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2016)

I think most people believe grace is a free gift. God chooses and we accept or deny or as some believe, we can't deny.

Either way, our salvation isn't based on works but maybe our rewards are. 
Is there anything biblical as to what the different rewards will be? Do celebrities get more rewards? Does a mediocre Christian get a log cabin on a dirt road instead of a mansion on a gold street?

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Just salvation? Then the rewards are based on works?


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## NE GA Pappy (Nov 29, 2016)

Can righteous judge issue the same punishment for lying as he would for murder?

I believe that the rewards start here. I believe living a biblical life brings blessings and joy to a person, even if that person doesn't profess to be a christian.


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## NE GA Pappy (Nov 29, 2016)

1 Cor 3:12

it talks about building on a foundation with gold,silver and gems, and also wood, hay and stubble.  How the consumable would be destroyed by fire, and only the precious left behind.  Sure sounds like our works will be rewarded for the value of the labor


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2016)

I was thinking more of progression levels or eternal progression as we work our way from conversion to becoming like Jesus. When we finally see Jesus as he is and become like him.

Such as a progression from not believing to believing, conversion, sanctification, etc. Is there something within Christianity that has levels of progress? Perhaps based on our changing from a man of flesh to a spiritual being. Perhaps even back to the spiritual being we once were as some believe. Perhaps even becoming a part  of unification with God. 

Is there something within Christianity that progresses or does everything happen the once we are chosen to be converted?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2016)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Can righteous judge issue the same punishment for lying as he would for murder?
> 
> I believe that the rewards start here. I believe living a biblical life brings blessings and joy to a person, even if that person doesn't profess to be a christian.



That's interesting. What about a Hindu who lives a more righteous life than a person in America who lives according to our Christian morals but who doesn't profess to be a Christian?


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## welderguy (Nov 30, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's interesting. What about a Hindu who lives a more righteous life than a person in America who lives according to our Christian morals but who doesn't profess to be a Christian?



He may have the outside of his cup spotless clean, but he needs Jesus to clean the inside for him.

And don't we all?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 30, 2016)

welderguy said:


> He may have the outside of his cup spotless clean, but he needs Jesus to clean the inside for him.
> 
> And don't we all?



I agree but do righteous people get rewards on this earth? If salvation is from grace alone, wouldn't the rewards be also? Man is giving God all of the credit for their salvation but giving themselves credit for rewards received from works.

Eventually we will all cast our crowns at the feet of God. 

I find it a bit ironic that if salvation is all from God, that our rewards aren't.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 30, 2016)

When I believed that heaven was a physical place, I could see these tiers or levels one could achieve based on works. Jewels, gold, mansions, fountains, etc. 
A physical place with sections only allowed for certain individuals. Based on their works or how much money they gave while in the flesh. Mansions for some, houses for others. 

The better person you were physically, the more time you get to spend with God.

Now that I see Heaven as a spiritual place, I see everyone as equal. I see unity and oneness.


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## NE GA Pappy (Nov 30, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's interesting. What about a Hindu who lives a more righteous life than a person in America who lives according to our Christian morals but who doesn't profess to be a Christian?



I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me.


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## welderguy (Dec 1, 2016)

If we are able to do anything that pleases Him, it's because He worked in us both the will and the to do of His good pleasure.The priveledge of being used by Him for His glory is the blessing.
It will continue forever in eternity, except in a more infinitely perfect way and in perfect oneness.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2016)

Does God use non-Christians and then bless them with worldly rewards?


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## welderguy (Dec 1, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does God use non-Christians and then bless them with worldly rewards?



Didn't He send the rain on Pharaoh and Moses alike?

Not sure I would use the word "reward" though.


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## welderguy (Dec 2, 2016)

He tells us to "seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added unto you."

I don't consider these "things" as rewards. I see it as God's promise to take care of our needs.
He takes care of the sparrows, noting each one when it falls.
But He says "Ye are worth more than many sparrows."

I love that.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 2, 2016)

Mat. 6:
1. “Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.
2. “So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
3. But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4. so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
5. “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

When a man acts to be seen by men he is obedient to his nature.

The others described act that God may be seen in his obedience to God.

Both serve God's purpose, to His glory.


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## Israel (Dec 3, 2016)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me.



Have you ever met "sacred namers"?
Do you know what I mean?
Some who call themselves "true" believers because they maintain that using the Greek name _Jesus_ may not only be less than "salvational", but exclusionary to it.
You "have to get the name...right".

What if, as it seems, when Paul makes the contention that some...(whom I believe the most of "holy Jews") could not accept the premise of what he saw...that a gentile, who by obeying (whatever part of) the law from his heart, showed he actually had that law written there? 
What says the "Jew" then...? "This cannot be? The law only came to such as we".

(perhaps it is better I say "acknowledge" the law...their consciences either excusing or accusing them)

It is true...none come to the Father but by Jesus Christ. But, what if, in our going about to "force" (if we do?) some to acknowledge that name, we show (unknown to us, of course) that by what is perceived as that "forcing"...we drive men to resist that "naming"...and perhaps rightly so, for they already have acknowledged a "One" who is without our curious forcing, and already seen as all of gift?
Might we not misinterpret their resistance for rejection, when actually, it is they who have embraced the Lord...(and later perhaps discover)...it is we ourselves...that have not?

The purity of the message may be affected by many things "of ourselves", and I am pretty well persuaded at this point...that is precisely why we are told "go, and preach the gospel". It really is a gift to us...that we might discover what the gospel really is...after we are done with thinking we have been told such as men fit to go and "do the world a favor".

The favor...is done all toward us.
I am not accusing anyone of this...because I simply cannot. But, I have known such a man.


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