# Beliefs required for salvation?



## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2012)

What are your beliefs, based on the Bible, for salvation?
I'll start with mine:
You must believe that Jesus was sent by God to die for our sins. That he was ressurected from death. I believe you must try to live a sinless life. I believe you must forgive others. Matthew 6:15  But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 17, 2012)

do you have to believe that Jesus is God? What about being bapitized? several times the scripture says to repent and be baptized.  Speaking of which, what about repenting?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2012)

NE GA Pappy said:


> do you have to believe that Jesus is God? What about being bapitized? several times the scripture says to repent and be baptized.  Speaking of which, what about repenting?



You have to believe that Jesus died for our sins. The bible says his mother was a virgin and I believe she was but that isn't part of my salvation. Jesus has the fullness of God in him. If you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father. He is a mirror image of his Father.

You must repent of your sins to be saved.


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## StriperAddict (Oct 18, 2012)

*>sigh<*

Well, right from post one I detect a turn toward laws and duties in regard to obtaining salvation, 
and if I'm wrong, please excuse me.  

But much of what some have emphasized on the subject of salvation brings the reconcilliation of the cross down, and our 'works' up.  
That's just putting the cart before the horse.  What a strain to 'try' and keep these holy works going (in our own strength), when our Lord simply tells us to 'abide', ("for", Christ says, "apart from Me ye can do nothing") ...
... but I also am getting away from the subject of salvation and into sanctification, and if that's not the main thrust of this thread as it continues, I digress.

Salvation is a loving act of a loving Heavenly Father, giving us a ransom for our sins... a Redeemer to justify us fully, and faith to believe that grace came to do for ourselves what we could never do: save us from the Adamic sin nature by the offering of the body of the second Adam, namely Jesus our Lord, and the blood of Christ to wash away all our acts of sin.  

"not of ourselves, it is the gift of God"

Post 3 Add on:
Repentance is also a foregoing gift of the Cross of Christ, and a 'work' of the Spirit of God. It doesn't occur _'before' _salvation, and not to _recieve _salvation; but from the Spirit _as a gift of _salvation.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> What are your beliefs, based on the Bible, for salvation?
> I'll start with mine:
> You must believe that Jesus was sent by God to die for our sins. That he was ressurected from death. I believe you must try to live a sinless life. I believe you must forgive others. Matthew 6:15  But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.



There are several examples in Acts of the Gospel being taught and received.  Study them.  
Something is obviously required of you and I otherwise every person would automatically receive salvation.

The teachings and examples found in the book of Acts are their for our learning.  In Acts, missionary's today can know how the Gospel was first taught and received.  And unbelievers can see the simplicity of receiving Christ.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 18, 2012)

What is required for salvation?

Mandatory attendance at a proper southern baptist church every Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wed night (for fellowship supper).

Coat AND tie if you walk in the doors of a church building.

Hymns only....that's how God did it and that's how we should too.

Baptism...only by emmersion and in a ceramic tub in front of a stained glass window only.

Must refer to each individual in a church building as "Brother" or "Sister"....outside of the building it's ok to call them "Jim" and "Sue".

Last...but probably most important...GENUINE leather Bible with PERFECT gold cresting on the pages.  Must be 1611 KJV and the gold cresting must NOT be disturbed in any way.


Pretty sure Jesus is in there somewhere.  But that part doesn't matter as long as you get the baptism thing right.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 18, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> What is required for salvation?
> 
> Mandatory attendance at a proper southern baptist church every Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wed night (for fellowship supper).
> 
> ...





You killed it!


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## gemcgrew (Oct 18, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Something is obviously required of you and I otherwise every person would automatically receive salvation.


Perhaps that "something required" is salvation and not everybody receives it. If something is required from us, it would be required from the flesh. What does the flesh profiteth us? Nothing. Salvation is of the Lord in its entirety.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 18, 2012)

Acts 2: 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”


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## formula1 (Oct 18, 2012)

*Re:*

Pretty simple to me, read these:
John 3:3-21
Acts 2:37-41
Romans 10:8-13

Then ask yourself these two questions:
Do you know Jesus Christ?
Does He know you?

Now rejoice, be free, and share these things, changing lives as you go.  And let's not be tossed by the doctrines of man!


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## buckeroo (Oct 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> What are your beliefs, based on the Bible, for salvation?
> I'll start with mine:
> You must believe that Jesus was sent by God to die for our sins. That he was ressurected from death. I believe you must try to live a sinless life. I believe you must forgive others. Matthew 6:15  But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.



Only thing I see wrong with this as it STRICTLY pertains to salvation is the statement about "I believe you must try to live a sinless life." 

Trying to live a sinless life has no bearing whatsoever on salvation. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand wanting to live a life righteous in God's eyes, but our deeds have no bearing on God's gift of eternal life to us. 

Now, don't take this off into left field and hear me trying to say that sin has no consequences and all that. I cant be any more clear that I am speaking strictly of our works and deeds and how it relates to post-salvation .

Remember- Your sin is not a hindrance to the work of Jesus in you, but your sin is the very reason for the work of Jesus in you


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## StriperAddict (Oct 18, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Perhaps that "something required" is salvation and not everybody receives it. If something is required from us, it would be required from the flesh. What does the flesh profiteth us? Nothing. Salvation is of the Lord in its entirety.


The one thing you and I might disagree with is that I believe a person cries "help Lord, save me" in his/her _unregenerate_ condition.  But it is a bit of a leap to call such a "work of salvation". 
I'll leave that paradox to the Theologians


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## StriperAddict (Oct 18, 2012)

buckeroo said:


> Only thing I see wrong with this as it STRICTLY pertains to salvation is the statement about "I believe you must try to live a sinless life."
> 
> Trying to live a sinless life has no bearing whatsoever on salvation. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand wanting to live a life righteous in God's eyes, but our deeds have no bearing on God's gift of eternal life to us.
> 
> ...


 
Great post and welcome to the frey.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 18, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart


You may view this as cooperation, where I may view this as regeneration.


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## buckeroo (Oct 18, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Great post and welcome to the frey.



Thanks. I try not to get too involved in this section because I could spend a lot of time here debating and that is NOT something I like to do a whole lot.


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## barryl (Oct 18, 2012)

Salvation, faith plus nothing. Romans Ch. 10, Acts Ch. 8. If you try to get in any other way you are called a thief or a robber in the word of God. The Books of Romans and Galatians are Salvation books. Soteriology- Salvation Doctrine, google that, it's been suggested several times to you A.D.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2012)

What about Matthew 6:15 and forgiving others?


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## StriperAddict (Oct 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> What about Matthew 6:15 and forgiving others?


 
Do you think you'd be as concerned about this if you weren't saved?
Since this is a big subject in your life, my take is that it's the loving leadership of the 
Spirit of God to impress your heart with it, but not something you'd necessarily 
consider _before coming_ to the cross.  But ...
certainly important thereafter.  

Disclaimer: I'm sure the unregenerate man considers forgiveness as something positive, 
but more on a prideful order while misunderstanding his/her need for sins forgiven of God.
When a person understands, by the work of God, their own need for forgiveness, they begin 
the journey with that all important call for help heavenward.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 18, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> What is required for salvation?
> 
> Mandatory attendance at a proper southern baptist church every Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wed night (for fellowship supper).
> 
> ...





Apparently, you forgot the alcohol thing too


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Do you think you'd be as concerned about this if you weren't saved?
> Since this is a big subject in your life, my take is that it's the loving leadership of the
> Spirit of God to impress your heart with it, but not something you'd necessarily
> consider _before coming_ to the cross.  But ...
> ...



I think I understand what you are saying. When I first accepted Jesus the only thing I was concerned with was that he died for me and God would forgive my sins if I accepted Jesus. The other requirements, works, repentance, baptism, communion and forgiving my tresspassers would come later but nothing I do or believe after accepting Jesus will jeopardize my salvation.


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## StriperAddict (Oct 18, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Apparently, you forgot the alcohol thing too


 
Don't forget the church bus   !

And it's just gotta have one of them really loooong names like:

"The Blessed Sanctification Holy Ghost Purifiying Tabernacle of the Redeemed Apostleship Covenant Keepers" ,


with signs and fires following, of course


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## StriperAddict (Oct 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think I understand what you are saying. When I first accepted Jesus the only thing I was concerned with was that he died for me and God would forgive my sins if I accepted Jesus. The other requirements, works, repentance, baptism, communion and forgiving my tresspassers would come later but nothing I do or believe after accepting Jesus will jeopardize my salvation.


 
Well said, that connects with me.

Pardon my (our) humor in other posts... no offence intended !


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Well said, that connects with me.
> 
> Pardon my (our) humor in other posts... no offence intended !



None taken, it's the funniest thing i've seen all day!


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## mtnwoman (Oct 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think I understand what you are saying. When I first accepted Jesus the only thing I was concerned with was that he died for me and God would forgive my sins if I accepted Jesus. The other requirements, works, repentance, baptism, communion and forgiving my tresspassers would come later but nothing I do or believe after accepting Jesus will jeopardize my salvation.



Amen!

As far as OT and NT 'commandments', none of us can fulfill those...that's why we needed Christ. Christ's yoke is much lighter than OT yokes of the law....yet we fail miserably, or at least I know I do. I can't do it...I just can't. I strive to get better at it and I've come a long way...yet I will always need Jesus to help me and to cover me.

Thank You God, for the blood of the Lamb.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 18, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Don't forget the church bus   !
> 
> "The Blessed Sanctification Holy Ghost Purifiying Tabernacle of the Redeemed Apostleship Covenant Keepers" ,
> 
> ...



Where do dat bus stop? I need to git on that one.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 18, 2012)

Tear down this temple made by man and be raised a new with God as the builder.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2012)

NE GA Pappy said:


> do you have to believe that Jesus is God? QUOTE]
> 
> When I was saved I believed Jesus was God but I no longer believe he is God. I still believe he is my saviour and the Son of God. I believe he is the image of God and has oneness with God. I believe if you have seen Jesus, you have seen God.


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## Michael F. Gray (Oct 18, 2012)

John 1:1-4
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the begining with God.
All things were made by him ; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life, and the life was the light of men."

When leading a prospect to a saving knowledge of Christ, I make sure they believe he was virgin born, lived a sinless life, paid for my sins on Calvary's Cross with his own blood, becoming the spotless lamb of God. He was buried in a borrowed tomb, but on the 3rd day arose and is on the right hand of the Heavenly Father interceding for you and I today.


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## K80 (Oct 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think I understand what you are saying. When I first accepted Jesus the only thing I was concerned with was that he died for me and God would forgive my sins if I accepted Jesus. The other requirements, works, repentance, baptism, communion and forgiving my tresspassers would come later but nothing I do or believe after accepting Jesus will jeopardize my salvation.


So help me out here, lets say a kid 13 or under says a prayer and then goes on to live a life of drinking, drugs, and lies, steals and/or worse will go to heaven? Or how about the husband that was saved as a kid but now only goes because the are drug by their wife? Or the person that acts prefect on Sundays dressed to the T but on the rest of the days they live their lives for themselves and lies and cheats to make a buck? 

At this point in my faith I'm not so sure I agree with the above.  I was similar to the first example above until recently except I never used drugs. I was never one to lie or steal however I've been around when street, beer, and cig signs were stolen. I've witnessed many things I should should have prob stopped but didn't and may have drawn others away from the lord by introducing them to their first drink and the party life. My faith kept me from doing many things over those years and kept my drinking from becoming an addiction and while I've always firmly believed that if I would have died during those times I would have gone to heaven looking back now I'm not so sure.

Today I'm TRYING to live every day for the lord and live a better life to set a good example for my kids. I also trying to bring others to the lord or back to the lord whereas in the past it wasn't a priority and used not wanting to offend others as justification.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 19, 2012)

K80 said:


> So help me out here, lets say a kid 13 or under says a prayer and then goes on to live a life of drinking, drugs, and lies, steals and/or worse will go to heaven? Or how about the husband that was saved as a kid but now only goes because the are drug by their wife? Or the person that acts prefect on Sundays dressed to the T but on the rest of the days they live their lives for themselves and lies and cheats to make a buck?
> 
> At this point in my faith I'm not so sure I agree with the above.  I was similar to the first example above until recently except I never used drugs. I was never one to lie or steal however I've been around when street, beer, and cig signs were stolen. I've witnessed many things I should should have prob stopped but didn't and may have drawn others away from the lord by introducing them to their first drink and the party life. My faith kept me from doing many things over those years and kept my drinking from becoming an addiction and while I've always firmly believed that if I would have died during those times I would have gone to heaven looking back now I'm not so sure.
> 
> Today I'm TRYING to live every day for the lord and live a better life to set a good example for my kids. I also trying to bring others to the lord or back to the lord whereas in the past it wasn't a priority and used not wanting to offend others as justification.



Been right there with ya.
When God was done with that 'testamony' for me, He came and got His lost sheep and brought me back to the fold. Without that testamony I could not 'comprehend' other folks needs when they are where I was. I wandered around the wilderness for nearly 40 years.

...It's that, 'if you think you're at the bottom of the barrel...hey I've been there and I can tell you how to get out.'  I had to experience what I did, to help others. That's why I believe once saved, always saved. I was lost and hiding from God...when He willed for me to come back, He came and got me and knew exactly where I was....reached down into the mirely clay and snatched me back. I had always belonged to Him, (12yo) as I look back. It's become so clear....from darkness into light in the blink of a eye.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 19, 2012)

I don't know what is required, I just know that I heard the gospel preached, my heart was pricked and when I called on the Lord to help, He healed my burden and has been a part of my life ever since.
 I love to hear testimonials of salvation and have learned that everyone that has experienced our Lords marvelous grace, has a present one on one relationship with Him.It comes to different people in different ways.I heard one man say he ran from the burden and even crawled up in a briar patch trying to get away from it, and it was in that briar patch he finally surrendered. 
 I heard the testimony of a Catholic lady that was fighting and losing a battle with leukemia.She said she got on her knees and cried out to God, not for a healing but a personal relationship.Tears run from eyes when she tells this, she said a peace and a calm came over her when she did this and she knew no matter what happened from that point on she was going to be in heaven some day.Hours after that happened she was able to get out of her bed and fix supper, something she hadn't done in weeks, after supper that night her Dr called and said the last test results were very positive.That was three years ago and she's still in remission!

So again, I don't know exactly what any one person has to do but I do know God wants you and doesn't care how head smart you are in the understanding of the Bible, His concern is your heart/soul and an invitation will go out to you, and if you deny it, you will regret it for eternity and if you accept you, you will be blessed for eternity from that very second.

May Gods grace be with you all.


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## RNC (Oct 19, 2012)

I believe a person needs to know in Whom they are believing.
They need to know that they stand guilty before God and that they are lost and condemned without Christ Jesus .
That Jesus has made a way for them to come to the Father and recieve everlasting life .
I believe when Peter said ''repent'' that he was simply saying that people need to turn to Christ Jesus and turn away from sin .

then see sig line ;]


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## RNC (Oct 19, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> I don't know what is required, I just know that I heard the gospel preached, my heart was pricked and when I called on the Lord to help, He healed my burden and has been a part of my life ever since.
> I love to hear testimonials of salvation and have learned that everyone that has experienced our Lords marvelous grace, has a present one on one relationship with Him.It comes to different people in different ways.I heard one man say he ran from the burden and even crawled up in a briar patch trying to get away from it, and it was in that briar patch he finally surrendered.
> I heard the testimony of a Catholic lady that was fighting and losing a battle with leukemia.She said she got on her knees and cried out to God, not for a healing but a personal relationship.Tears run from eyes when she tells this, she said a peace and a calm came over her when she did this and she knew no matter what happened from that point on she was going to be in heaven some day.Hours after that happened she was able to get out of her bed and fix supper, something she hadn't done in weeks, after supper that night her Dr called and said the last test results were very positive.That was three years ago and she's still in remission!
> 
> ...



 Glory 2 GOD ;]  ..... GREAT POST !


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 19, 2012)

Great replies, It might be what's in our individual hearts between God and us. Meaning it might be different from each person to the other as God knows what's in our hearts more than a list of requirements.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 19, 2012)

Our beliefs are very important to us.  This forum makes that awfully clear.
In the end, it isn't about our belief but it's about what God wants, expects, and deserves.
What does God's word say?  What did Christ say?  What were the things do, said, and followed in the 1st century?

The fact that there's so many differing beliefs indicates we need to spend more time back in God's word.


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## RNC (Oct 19, 2012)

ronnie t said:


> our beliefs are very important to us.  This forum makes that awfully clear.
> In the end, it isn't about our belief but it's about what god wants, expects, and deserves.
> What does god's word say?  What did christ say?  What were the things do, said, and followed in the 1st century?
> 
> The fact that there's so many differing beliefs indicates we need to spend more time back in god's word.



amen !


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## stringmusic (Oct 19, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> What is required for salvation?
> 
> Mandatory attendance at a proper southern baptist church every Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wed night (for fellowship supper).
> 
> ...





StriperAddict said:


> Don't forget the church bus   !
> 
> And it's just gotta have one of them really loooong names like:
> 
> ...



Just now seen these two gems. 

Thanks for the laugh gentlemen!


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## barryl (Oct 19, 2012)

*Screaming at the screen again R.J.*



Ronnie T said:


> Our beliefs are very important to us.  This forum makes that awfully clear.
> In the end, it isn't about our belief but it's about what God wants, expects, and deserves.
> What does God's word say?  What did Christ say?  What were the things do, said, and followed in the 1st century?
> 
> The fact that there's so many differing beliefs indicates we need to spend more time back in God's word.


The last sentence R.T. speaks truth ! So when anyone denies a tandum Dumptruck load of scripture to promote a perverted doctrine I don't know how anyone wouldn't think the Holy Spirit wouldn't be grieved by it ! My Bible tells me who brings me to truth John 16:13 not the internet John 17:17 KJV 1611 AV


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## mtnwoman (Oct 19, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Great replies, It might be what's in our individual hearts between God and us. Meaning it might be different from each person to the other as God knows what's in our hearts more than a list of requirements.



I agree.
I believe we are all under conviction of things to do and not to do. Christ covered it all on the cross...whatever our downfalls are. He was bruised (bled on the inside) for our iniquities, the things on the inside of us (our heart).

One person may be convicted to not drink at all or not dance at all, or be in church everytime the doors are open. Or don't wear makeup, or don't cut your hair...whatever. There's things that I wouldn't dare do now, that might be ok for someone else to do (in moderation).

I have a friend who goes to a church simply because they do communion every week.  I think I want to be baptized again. Things like that. I don't even agree sometimes with the pastor, but wouldn't keep me from going back to a church, of course depending on what it was that I disagreed with.

So I do believe God's will for each of us can sometimes be different for everyone.

If you want to drink real wine with communion and you're stuck on that, then go to a church that does that. I, myself, could do either.

Bible verses are so complex, too and can mean different things to different people. Like my goliath may be different than your goliath, but yet we still need God to help each of us slay the giant standing before us.

Ok, ramblin rose will shush now, I'm a little off topic, but it sort of relates.


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## Israel (Oct 20, 2012)

Are we not saved in truth, by the truth?
Do we "have to" confess Jesus is Lord? 
Or do we confess Jesus is Lord simply because we are now given to speak truth?
Perhaps the truth is that understanding Jesus as Lord is only as plain to me as the reality that "I" am not (lord)?
Yesterday I spoke as though I was, that is, in presumption of my own understanding.
And I acted as though I was. To my own shame.
Today is a different day.
I am told sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
There is an evil that wants me to not act or speak according to the truth.
But the truth remains.
Jesus is Lord.


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## StriperAddict (Oct 20, 2012)

Israel said:


> Are we not saved in truth, by the truth?
> Do we "have to" confess Jesus is Lord?
> Or do we confess Jesus is Lord simply because we are now given to speak truth?
> Perhaps the truth is that understanding Jesus as Lord is only as plain to me as the reality that "I" am not (lord)?
> ...


 
A good point. 
Your words oft put me in a place to sit still and not move without dictate from above...  Maybe the small fissitudes of life might keep us asking for the Man, to be the Lord in all, while we... with some fear, ask that our heart not be lifted into presumption as we step forward.

I'll give an example too...

Saturdays are a strange one, a beast, because I  think they're "mine".
Mine to do with as I...

but wait. This is the day the Lord hath made...

After I get up from this morning of work on the job, yes I first confessed 
"Got this one, Lord"
But I caught His holy "uh-huh" ... reminding me where it all begins,
and ends.
So before the key was in the ignition I made the simple and profound call


"Help"

Distractions can and will come to pull us away from the notice we have, and not an unfriendly one I must point out,
that in ourselves we are nothing yet IN HIM is all the fullness. 

A fullness He delights in sharing.

So I had a smile when the Generator came up this morning! 
Dare I say praise be to circuits, rectifiers, capacitors and quality preventative maintenance?  I would simply do well to appreciate these things as even with them humming along harmonuously I still thank Prividence for answering that simple prayer.


Divinely Shared Saturdays forever. What a concept!


I'll take it    !


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## gordon 2 (Oct 20, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Our beliefs are very important to us.  This forum makes that awfully clear.
> In the end, it isn't about our belief but it's about what God wants, expects, and deserves.
> What does God's word say?  What did Christ say?  What were the things do, said, and followed in the 1st century?
> 
> The fact that there's so many differing beliefs indicates we need to spend more time back in God's word.



Right... and leave the Apocalypse on the back burner until you get your black belt in !st century fellowship.

But also....it is my experience that Jesus comes to those who are thristy for the Spirit that haunts and calls them...even they who cannot read. Those that know there is a place....a place they have not been, but know it is there...somehow if they percevere ( Continue in a course of action even in the face of difficulty or with little or no indication of success)--- they are grafted in.

God's will is much more than His word. His is dynamic ( for lack of a better word at present.) On any given day, we are many days apart in distance when we read even the same passages. But when Jesus and the Holy Spirit shows up there is no seperation, no distance in the hearts. There is understanding.

So then what do we need? Words? To those who called on Jesus...Jesus said "Follow me." Figuratively it must mean many things...for we all have different gift with which to follow. But also, it means...move you legs, drag you carcass...to and with me.

So we have two fundamentals yes. The word yes. And resurected Jesus yes. Many have taken long walks on short peirs with the word. With Jesus....hum...he's a water walker.


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## Bama4me (Oct 20, 2012)

Concerning salvation, people asked about it on the day of Pentecost... and Peter answered. The answer corresponds to what Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:19-20. For all who claim salvation does not result when man is moved to (fleshly) action, please explain 1 Peter 1:22. 

In a nutshell, salvation is offered by God. Had God not acted first and sent Christ to die for us, we would never have hope. Thus... we are saved first and foremost by God's grace (Ephesians 2:10). However, this same passage indicates we are saved "through faith". Faith, when it is defined and exemplified in Hebrews 11, is trusting in God enough to obey what He asks of us. If God's word specified salvation came by raising a thousand dollars, "faith" in God would move us to do just that. Thus... salvation is accomplished by a faith which moves us to obedience. However, our obedience still gives us no reason to boast or claim salvation on our own merit - God is perfect and offers me salvation. Not the other way around.

As someone mentioned earlier, God's word is the guide for our answers - not man. And, I want what people in the book of Acts received - I thus must do what they did.


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## Israel (Oct 21, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> _Right... and leave the Apocalypse on the back burner until you get your black belt in !st century fellowship._
> 
> But also....it is my experience that Jesus comes to those who are thristy for the Spirit that haunts and calls them...even they who cannot read. Those that know there is a place....a place they have not been, but know it is there...somehow if they percevere ( Continue in a course of action even in the face of difficulty or with little or no indication of success)--- they are grafted in.
> 
> ...




There's little glamorous about "little children, love one another" as it is reported the elder apostle John was quoted as saying when he was carried by litter or arms to late 1st century gatherings. Whether the story be factual, or not, I see the truth of it. For it goes on to say they younger disciples were troubled by what seemed this constant  repetition, and finally moved by irritation they queried, "why do you always and only say that".

"Because it is the Lord's command", he is quoted. "and if you do that, it is enough".

I am convinced, in heart and practice, that if all our Bibles be taken away, and all our memories become faulty, the inexhaustible mining of one simple instruction and invitation to seek out all that is alone worth knowing in "Love one another, as I have loved you" would be sufficient to fill our days with such delightful seeking and finding, our hearts and minds with such revelation of the deepest mysteries, and our understanding of the "all things" given us in Christ.

I have come to believe all the epistles, all the prophets, all the wisdom, and all ever written in truth, is toward this end alone.

I find nothing relieves of burden of command, nor obligation, nor injunction, nor fear, than seeing how Jesus has loved me.

And in that alone whose breadth, and depth, and height is unending, my considerations have only just begun. 
No wonder we are given eternal life to know what will never take less than eternity to search out.


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## barryl (Oct 21, 2012)

Bottom line, what are you relying on to get you to HEAVEN ?


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## Israel (Oct 21, 2012)

barryl said:


> Bottom line, what are you relying on to get you to HEAVEN ?


Bottom line, the one who knows the way there.
For the ways there are to be our way, even here, now.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 21, 2012)

Israel said:


> There's little glamorous about "little children, love one another" as it is reported the elder apostle John was quoted as saying when he was carried by litter or arms to late 1st century gatherings. Whether the story be factual, or not, I see the truth of it. For it goes on to say they younger disciples were troubled by what seemed this constant  repetition, and finally moved by irritation they queried, "why do you always and only say that".
> 
> "Because it is the Lord's command", he is quoted. "and if you do that, it is enough".
> 
> ...






When I was a young man, and working in a university, an even younger man shared with me his fear or worry...that he was going to specialize in one disciple in the humanities, (in university)...and that he would forgo knowing many things well...for knowing only a few things  very well or specializing.

The councel I gave him then, and which I still hold to today, because it had proved out for me with university studies was that if a study in earnest and in depth was done of even one discipline in the humanities (arts, poetry, litterature, history, philosophy,sociology, psychology etc...) one would hit all others at some point.

As far as my spiritual life goes... I have had a keen interest in justice, prosperity and peace from the perspective of scripture ( as you probably noticed).  In otherwords, I have tried to understand where and why Jesus understood well what he did. And why christians say and do as they say and do or don't do... But also why Isaiah and other prophets have said regards individual behaviours and social justice ( prosperity).

From this little study it did not take an eternity to bounce off the ribs of God. And for Peter and Paul and the Kingdom--, for Moses and others, Jesus provided to me no anxiety.........at all. Nor anxiety amongst the great and the learned.

As per this post.

Many have climbed the mountains...and for the light they've seen are blinded and tongue tied. This I firmly believe. And this is a shame because christians are called to be as the prophets and see in the future like a deer knows to drink. That mountain is the Kingdom...and the future is what all our gifts will bring to it...in time.

In our lifetimes the world of christians is not controlled by the devil. Our Lord through salvation has freed us from such a grip. When we vote in elections for example--we vote for the values most akin to the values of The Prince of Peace and the justice of God. When we aim our eye to the future...we would do well to know intimately what Isaiah saw and what Isaiah saw... it did not take eternities to see it. And we are much greater than Isaiah.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 21, 2012)

barryl said:


> Bottom line, what are you relying on to get you to HEAVEN ?



I'm going to have to rely on Jesus. He said he was the only way/path for me to see his Father. Jesus is the only mediator for me to go through. There is no other way.
                                                                                                         1 Timothy 2: 5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 22, 2012)

barryl said:


> The last sentence R.T. speaks truth ! So when anyone denies a tandum Dumptruck load of scripture to promote a perverted doctrine I don't know how anyone wouldn't think the Holy Spirit wouldn't be grieved by it ! My Bible tells me who brings me to truth John 16:13 not the internet John 17:17 KJV 1611 AV



This tandum dumptruck load was more about Jesus than the Holy Spirit and these are verses from MY Bible!
If Jesus was God

At the very outset of Jesus’ ministry, when he came up out of the baptismal water, God’s voice from heaven said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” (Matthew 3:16, 17) Was God saying that he was his own son, that he approved himself, that he sent himself? No, God the Creator was saying that he, as the superior, was approving a lesser one, his Son Jesus, for the work ahead. Jesus indicated his Father’s superiority when he said: “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor.” (Luke 4:18) Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have. Jesus made his Father’s superiority clear when the mother of two disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and one at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom. Jesus answered: “As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father,” that is, God. (Matthew 20:23) Had Jesus been Almighty God, those positions would have been his to give. But Jesus could not give them, for they were God’s to give, and Jesus was not God.
Jesus’ own prayers are a powerful example of his inferior position. When Jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42) To whom was he praying? To a part of himself? No, he was praying to someone entirely separate, his Father, God, whose will was superior and could be different from his own, the only One able to “remove this cup. ”Then, as he neared death, Jesus cried out: “My God, my God, why have you deserted me?” (Mark 15:34, JB) To whom was Jesus crying out? To himself or to part of himself? Surely, that cry, “My God,” was not from someone who considered himself to be God. And if Jesus were God, then by whom was he deserted? Himself? That would not make sense. Jesus also said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46) If Jesus were God, for what reason should he entrust his spirit to the Father?After Jesus died, he was in the tomb for parts of three days. The Bible says that Jesus died and was unconscious in the tomb. Who resurrected Jesus from the dead? If he was truly dead, he could not have resurrected himself. On the other hand, if he was not really dead, his pretended death would not have paid the ransom price for Adam’s sin. But he did pay that price in full by his genuine death. So it was “God [who] resurrected [Jesus] by loosing the pangs of death.” (Acts 2:24)
Does Jesus’ ability to perform miracles, such as resurrecting people, indicate that he was God? Well, the apostles and the prophets Elijah and Elisha had that power too, but that did not make them more than men. God gave the power to perform miracles to the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles to show that He was backing them. But it did not make any of them part of a plural Godhead or trinity.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."


One scripture sometimes used by people who accept the trinity is John 14:7:
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.” Some Christians feel this proves God and Jesus were the same person. However, reading the verse in context demonstrates this is not at all what the Savior was saying.
In verse 10, Jesus says, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” Here, Jesus Christ clearly says he isn’t speaking for Himself, but for God, and it’s God doing the works, not Him. This makes it very clear they are separate beings. Jesus promises to pray to God to ask God to send a comforter to His apostles when He’s gone, something that would not be necessary if they were the same person. But in verse 20, we learn exactly what Jesus means when He talks about being in the Father:
“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” If the previous verses had the meaning that “I am in my Father” meant they were the same person, then the next phrase, “And ye in me, and I in you” would mean the apostles were also the same person as Jesus, making it far larger than a trinity. Jesus uses similar phrasing often, instructing the apostles to be one with each other as He is one with His Father. What He meant, obviously, was to be completely unified in love, doctrine, and purpose.
The testimony of Stephen is even more clear about the separateness of Jesus and God: “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55-56)

• Jesus said, "The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." (John 13:16) Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me." (John 5:37,6:37) The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father (John 14:26) and Jesus (John 16:7), thus making Jesus inferior to the Father and the Holy Ghost inferior to both the Father and Jesus.
• "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth." (John 14:16)
• Jesus prays to God. (John 17:1-3)
• Jesus has faith in God. (Hebrews 2:17,18, Hebrews 3:2)
• Jesus is a servant of God. (Acts 3:13)
• Jesus does not know things God knows. (Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)
• Jesus worships God. (John 4:22)
• Jesus has one who is God to him. (Revelation 3:12)
• Jesus is in subjection to God. (1 Corinthians 15:28)
• Jesus' head is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
• Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God. (Hebrews 5:7)
• Jesus is given lordship by God. (Acts 2:36)
• Jesus is exalted by God.(Acts 5:31)
• Jesus is made high priest by God. (Hebrews 5:10)
• Jesus is given authority by God. (Philippians 2:9)
• Jesus is given kingship by God. (Luke 1:32,33)
• Jesus is given judgment by God. (Acts 10:42)
• "God raised [Jesus] from the dead". (Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:15)
• Jesus is at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34)
• Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man. (1 Timothy 2:5)
• God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
• Jesus did not think being "equal with God" was graspable. (Philippians 2:6)
• "Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" (Matthew 27:46)


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 22, 2012)

I believe there is a certain amount of obedience required for our Salvation. Luke 6:46-49


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## StriperAddict (Oct 22, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe there is a certain amount of obedience required for our Salvation. Luke 6:46-49



Yes, Christs'.  Counter His with your own and you'll be one discouraged diciple.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 22, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe there is a certain amount of obedience required for our Salvation. Luke 6:46-49



You're wiser than you might think.
Godly faith always involves obedience.  There's no such thing as uncommitted faith in God.
Godly faith always proves itself in obedience.
Ask Abraham...... and James.


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## Israel (Oct 23, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Yes, Christs'.  Counter His with your own and you'll be one discouraged diciple.



Amen.
Serving God in obedience is like the man who kisses the pretty girl because she asked him to.
It's either:

"But look what I have done, I have served!"

Or "Oh, thank you for instructing me to do that."

There is only one thing I have discovered worth searching out...Jesus in his obedience.
"I delight to do thy will" is not "me". But he is available for us to search out...indeed "told" to, given in the deepest part to be our life.

Always and only, I have found anything seemingly "asked" of me...is always for my benefit.
The only little thing I am asked to surrender is the thing that thinks the will of God is hard, or unpleasant in any way.  And not full of glory.
I am asked to put a liar to death.

But, oh, in the learning, I discover there really is one to be overcome, the one who has never wanted us to see our God. To see his "good will".
Thanks be to God for the Lamb! Clearly manifest to us.

The liar is defeated in the Lord's revelation of light.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 23, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> You're wiser than you might think.
> Godly faith always involves obedience.  There's no such thing as uncommitted faith in God.
> Godly faith always proves itself in obedience.
> Ask Abraham...... and James.



That's my view of obedience. More of doing it because you want to instead of a chore.


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## StriperAddict (Oct 23, 2012)

Israel said:


> There is only one thing I have discovered worth searching out...Jesus in his obedience.


 
What an incredible journey it is! 
My 'demons' of the self life are leaving, one at a time, yet my/our inward man by the cross is made whole enough to grasp...
He is Lord, and within us is His mystery of the Life abundant.

I might cry when those 'ol "friends" of the self-life get the boot, as Peter did in denying his Lord...  but with time the Light comes to shine on our 'spots' to show them up for what they are.
And better, to be glad in the ministry of His daily grace.
Hebrews 13:9


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## Ronnie T (Oct 23, 2012)

Israel said:


> Amen.
> Serving God in obedience is like the man who kisses the pretty girl because she asked him to.
> It's either:
> 
> ...



Amen.
In Christ, we have no works.... but fruit of the Spirit.


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## Bama4me (Oct 23, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's my view of obedience. More of doing it because you want to instead of a chore.



Scripture abounds which tell us obedience without heart-involvement is futile.  Jesus, in fact, said "if you love Me, keep My commandments" (John 14:15)... and He severely criticized people who DID the right things (gave alms, prayed, fasted) without the proper motivation (see Matthew 6:1-17).  Sometimes, I'm afraid we put the cart before the horse... so to speak.

Another intrinsic way we can know God expects us to be obedient is to look at the "titles" Jesus wears.  Acts 2:36 clearly affirms that God made Jesus "Lord" and "Christ."  The word "Christ" here means "Savior"... the word "Lord" means "Master."  Sadly, one of the lies often believed of Satan is one which claims we can have "Jesus the Savior" apart from "Jesus the Master".  We all want salvation... but many of us don't want Jesus "sticking His nose" into our personal lives.  Simply... we can have one to the exclusion of the other... they go hand in hand BUT all of our obedience must originate in our hearts.


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## barryl (Oct 23, 2012)

*John 14:28*



Artfuldodger said:


> This tandum dumptruck load was more about Jesus that the Holy Spirit and these are verses from MY Bible!
> If Jesus was God
> 
> At the very outset of Jesus’ ministry, when he came up out of the baptismal water, God’s voice from heaven said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” (Matthew 3:16, 17) Was God saying that he was his own son, that he approved himself, that he sent himself? No, God the Creator was saying that he, as the superior, was approving a lesser one, his Son Jesus, for the work ahead. Jesus indicated his Father’s superiority when he said: “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor.” (Luke 4:18) Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have. Jesus made his Father’s superiority clear when the mother of two disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and one at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom. Jesus answered: “As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father,” that is, God. (Matthew 20:23) Had Jesus been Almighty God, those positions would have been his to give. But Jesus could not give them, for they were God’s to give, and Jesus was not God.
> ...


Why did Jesus say that the "Father is greater" than his son. You recon that it may have anything to do with his earthly life as a man? Does the Father get tired ? His son did. The Father never gets thirsty, His son did. Tell me how you nail the "Father" to the Cross And, Jesus says, you would rejoice at my leaving to return to the Father. Why? Because Jesus was returning to his original position John 1: 1-3. Wasn't that a greater position than what he was in then? The book of Hebrews tell about it.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 23, 2012)

barryl said:


> Why did Jesus say that the "Father is greater" than his son. You recon that it may have anything to do with his earthly life as a man? Does the Father get tired ? His son did. The Father never gets thirsty, His son did. Tell me how you nail the "Father" to the Cross And, Jesus says, you would rejoice at my leaving to return to the Father. Why? Because Jesus was returning to his original position John 1: 1-3. Wasn't that a greater position than what he was in then? The book of Hebrews tell about it.



I don't look at those verses as being perverted or perverting anything. They are in the Bible.
I don't look at the concept the same as most folks and that is something i'll have to live with. Most Christians in my predicament would probably just keep their mouth shut and I reckon I should have done that. 
I hope i'm ready to move on. I'm studying  the Holy Ghost now.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 23, 2012)

barryl said:


> Why did Jesus say that the "Father is greater" than his son. You recon that it may have anything to do with his earthly life as a man? Does the Father get tired ? His son did. The Father never gets thirsty, His son did. Tell me how you nail the "Father" to the Cross And, Jesus says, you would rejoice at my leaving to return to the Father. Why? Because Jesus was returning to his original position John 1: 1-3. Wasn't that a greater position than what he was in then? The book of Hebrews tell about it.



He is using scripture that shows the humanity of Jesus to prove that Jesus is not God. It is absurd.

Here is one example:
• Jesus does not know things God knows. (Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)

What about "Our friend, Lazarus, is sleepeth". No one informed Jesus of this. Why some want to strip Jesus of omniscience is beyond me.

My Redeemer is and must be both God and man.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 23, 2012)

It really is. Look at these verses:
Verses saying Jesus is God: 

Heb. 1:8 
God the Father called the Son "God." 
Isa. 9:6 
The "child" is called the "Mighty God." 
Mt. 1:23, 

Is. 7:14 
Jesus is called Immanuel, which means "God with us." 
John. 1:1 
Jesus (the "Word") is called "God." 
1 Tim. 3:16 
Paul said Jesus was God "manifested in the flesh." 
Col. 2:8.9 
Paul said Jesus was the "fullness of the Godhead bodily. 
John. 20:28 
Thomas said to Jesus, "…my God." 
Titus 2:13 
Paul called Jesus "the great God." 
Phil. 2:5,6 
Paul said Jesus didn’t feel it was wrong to be considered "equal with God." 
John 5:18 
The Jews wanted to kill Jesus because He was "making Himself equal with God." 
John 10:30 
Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." 
Gen. 1:1;

Col. 1:16
The Bible said God created all things and that Jesus created all things. 
Mic. 5:2 
The messiah (Jesus) had always been in existence. 
Isa. 44:6; Rev. 1:2,8, 11,13 
God claimed to be the "First and the Last." So did Jesus. God clearly states that He is the only savior. The Bible also says Jesus is our savior.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 23, 2012)

And getting back to the OP.
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Does this pertain to us or just Israel?


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## thedeacon (Oct 23, 2012)

willful obedience will cover everything covered on this post.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 23, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> It really is. Look at these verses:
> Verses saying Jesus is God:
> 
> Heb. 1:8
> ...


I wish I had time to address all these? Maybe I'll get home from work before dark soon, or better yet get a rain day


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 23, 2012)

Jesus Christ says in Matt 28:19-20 teach all nations, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

2 Cor 7:10 Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

These verses are related to willful obedience. Jesus knew we would still sin but if you call Jesus "Lord" then you will do what he tells us to do. God has granted him the right to be called "Lord". 
Obedience is not optional because it is the true test of
professing Christ. You must submit to the Lordship of Christ.
Jesus also give us a pretty strong warning that not everyone who calls him Lord will be in Heaven.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 23, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> I wish I had time to address all these? Maybe I'll get home from work before dark soon, or better yet get a rain day



Please, I need some relief. As Jerry Clower once said "just shoot up here amongst us"


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 23, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> What about "Our friend, Lazarus, is sleepeth". No one informed Jesus of this. Why some want to strip Jesus of omniscience is beyond me.


Matthew 24: 36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Jesus was informed by God on many matters. God did tell Jesus that Judas would betray him.
His return trip was of no importance to Jesus at his time on Earth. Why would he say something that wasn't true? His main mission on Earth was to become our Saviour. Maybe he was debriefed. He might know now but that would be speculation.


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## barryl (Oct 23, 2012)

*Blanket Theory*

Just a short note concerning the "blanket theory" that you continuously use to spirtualize everything in the Word of God to wrest scripture out of context to line up with your "theory".  Matthew and Hebrews, as I have found out over the past few years, is used when it is plainly not applicable to Gentiles (it has a minimal spiritual application to us).   For example, your last post, Matthew 24 is plainly a tribulation, millenuium or 2nd Advent chapter.  Since you want to misapply scripture, I'm going to leave you with this one: Matthew Chapter 15:13-14 KJV 1611 AV  -Jesus, speaking to his disciples who were Jews:  13: "But he answered and said, every  plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14: Let them alone;  they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."  My advice to you is to find you another "spiritual leader'. II Tim. 2:15 This is why so many so called born again believers dodge this verse of Scripture  - "rightly divding the word of truth".


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## Israel (Oct 24, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 24: 36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
> 
> Jesus was informed by God on many matters. God did tell Jesus that Judas would betray him.
> His return trip was of no importance to Jesus at his time on Earth. Why would he say something that wasn't true? His main mission on Earth was to become our Saviour. Maybe he was debriefed. He might know now but that would be speculation.



I hate to say this in such utilitarian terms, but simply put, Jesus walking the earth as anything but the MAN of the spirit, becomes of little help to me. That is, a man filled with the Holy Spirit, relying on God his Father (and ours) at all times, for and through everything.
Jesus testified that of himself he could do nothing. (I know a man like that).
Jesus testified that he only did what he saw the Father doing, only spoke what he heard from his Father. (I know a man now who is instructed to keep his eyes on that faithful Savior, and now do only what he sees and hears of Jesus...by that same Holy Spirit)
He testified he would be shown "greater things".

Jesus is my Lord...and indeed, He is my God. He has been given authority over all things pertaining not only to me, but his Bride, the Church. There is now, no thought of "going around" Jesus, but through him, in all things, to the Father.  I believe this is part of the full restoration of God's intended order. 
As once Adam was the "head" of mankind, (and we all fell in Adam) so now Jesus is the head of all the new creation. (In whom we are raised)

But particularly, when faced with trials especially, if "I" say to my soul "this trial is too great" but the Spirit testifies "I can do all things through Christ"...if I fall "back" to, and tell my soul this: "But Jesus _was_ God, it was different for him"...I believe I have lost something of the truth. (For I know I am not God)
We are told to take up our cross and follow. And it is there, precisely, (not that I become savior), but that I "know him".
Not as one who walked snapping his fingers and popping miracles, (simply as HE pleased, for there was a place he did not many mighty miracles) not as one who says..."gee, what a piece of cake"...but as a man submitted to God in all things...even and especially in all the weakness discovered in these words, "now is my soul troubled, even unto death". (I can testify that is truth, for in what little I have tasted, I see the One who consumed all of death, and vanquished it)

And it is there...with loud cries and tears, I see my Savior, made in ever way like me, but without sin, not diminished by being a man...but exalted now, because he poured out his soul, in obedience, even unto death.

I strongly believe that in every way, the Captain of our salvation came to show there is no shame in being weak, or even unknowing of all things, but indeed, when that weakness is submitted in truth to our God, all power is available. And in the admission of ignorance, comes light.

And to walk, in our great hope and joy of seeking, even as he walked.

The truth for the disciple now, is to see the one who became like us...as he is, even the one who testified, I was dead, but alive now forevermore.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 24, 2012)

Israel said:


> I hate to say this in such utilitarian terms, but simply put, Jesus walking the earth as anything but the MAN of the spirit, becomes of little help to me. That is, a man filled with the Holy Spirit, relying on God his Father (and ours) at all times, for and through everything.
> Jesus testified that of himself he could do nothing. (I know a man like that).
> Jesus testified that he only did what he saw the Father doing, only spoke what he heard from his Father. (I know a man now who is instructed to keep his eyes on that faithful Savior, and now do only what he sees and hears of Jesus...by that same Holy Spirit)
> He testified he would be shown "greater things".
> ...



Very well said. I too know a man like that.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 24, 2012)

barryl said:


> Just a short note concerning the "blanket theory" that you continuously use to spirtualize everything in the Word of God to wrest scripture out of context to line up with your "theory".  Matthew and Hebrews, as I have found out over the past few years, is used when it is plainly not applicable to Gentiles (it has a minimal spiritual application to us).   For example, your last post, Matthew 24 is plainly a tribulation, millenuium or 2nd Advent chapter.  Since you want to misapply scripture, I'm going to leave you with this one: Matthew Chapter 15:13-14 KJV 1611 AV  -Jesus, speaking to his disciples who were Jews:  13: "But he answered and said, every  plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14: Let them alone;  they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."  My advice to you is to find you another "spiritual leader'. II Tim. 2:15 This is why so many so called born again believers dodge this verse of Scripture  - "rightly divding the word of truth".



I do have trouble with what scripture applies to us. I don't have a blanket theory nor do I have a "spiritial leader" other than God and my Lord Jesus.
I was reading Hebrews when I ran across these verses.
Hebrews 6:20 where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf.
Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

Even though Hebrews were written to Hebrews(duh), I am a man and Jesus is a ressurected man who has become a high priest. 

II Timothy 2: 15 KJV   Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
 II Timothy 2: 15 NIV  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

Rightly dividing the word of truth - The word here rendered "rightly dividing," occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It means, properly, "to cut straight, to divide right;" and the allusion here may be to a steward who makes a proper distribution to each one under his care of such things as his office and their necessities require.

That is what i'm striving to do. I'm not on some strange mission to change the "truth" that you must think i'm on for some reason. If I suddenly start believing in "Oneness" i'll present it for discussion. I don't expect anyone else to suddenly believe in "Oneness".


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## Bama4me (Oct 24, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I was reading Hebrews when I ran across these verses.
> Hebrews 6:20 where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
> Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf.
> Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.
> ...



Good observations in this thread.  "Rightly dividing" or "handling aright" God's word includes the fact we must read the Bible in light of its original context.  As someone I know once said, we'll never know what the Bible MEANS until we know what the Bible MEANT.

Several books of the NT can't fully be understood by us today unless we know the purpose for which they were written.  Examples include:
*  Hebrews: without a knowledge of levitical law and the Jewish customs, much cannot be fully understood.
*  Timothy's/Titus:  admonitions given from an older preacher to a younger preacher... not for every believer.
*  Revelation:  designed to provide hope to the seven churches of Asia during a time of intense persecution.
*  1 John:  to provide believers with assurance regarding their salvation (see 5:14).
*  Philemon:  written to convince a slave owner (Philemon) to welcome back his runaway slave (Onesimus)... a "crime" in that day which was punishable by death.

Realize I'm NOT saying that we can't understand any idea or biblical truth from these books without knowing context. For instance, I don't have to know the purpose of 1 Timothy to understand the qualifications of bishops in 3:1ff.  However, the purpose of the book DOES have a great impact on 4:12-16.  Here, Paul wrote to Timothy on a personal/professional level as a preacher... these were things which applied to him (_and maybe other preachers_), but not every single believer (_many didn't have the gift of preaching in that time_).

All too often, we pull a verse "out of context", twist it one way or another, and make it say what we want it to say.  "Handling aright" Scripture includes reading things in light of their context... _who was writing, who was being addressed, and for what purpose_.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 24, 2012)

1536: In his translation of the Bible from Greek into German, Luther removed 4 N.T. books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation) and placed them in an appendix saying they were less than canonical.

Could someone post a list of the New Testament Books that directly pertain to Gentiles? I realize they are all good for study purposes, history lessons, etc.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 24, 2012)

Hebrews 1 (New International Version)
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

I know that he is talking to Jews but I still believe Jesus is the radiance of God's glory and an exact representation of God.

I'm not talking about a verse here & there taken out of context, I'm talking about a whole book of the Bible.
Another thing I would like some input on is: Why was it even necessary to mention Jesus' superiority to angels? He received an inheritance.


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## barryl (Oct 25, 2012)

*Glad you asked*



Artfuldodger said:


> 1536: In his translation of the Bible from Greek into German, Luther removed 4 N.T. books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation) and placed them in an appendix saying they were less than canonical.
> 
> Could someone post a list of the New Testament Books that directly pertain to Gentiles? I realize they are all good for study purposes, history lessons, etc.


Maybe this will help Gen. 1 - Exodus 20 is grace operating through conscience. Exodus 20- Matt. 26 is faith and works operating through the Law. Matt. 26- Acts 8 is an intermediate period of transition. Acts 8 - Hebrews is grace operating through faith in the gospel. Hebrews - Rev. 20 is faith and works operating through the gospel and the Law Revelation 20-22 is works only.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 27, 2012)

Israel said:


> I hate to say this in such utilitarian terms, but simply put, Jesus walking the earth as anything but the MAN of the spirit, becomes of little help to me. That is, a man filled with the Holy Spirit, relying on God his Father (and ours) at all times, for and through everything.
> Jesus testified that of himself he could do nothing. (I know a man like that).
> Jesus testified that he only did what he saw the Father doing, only spoke what he heard from his Father. (I know a man now who is instructed to keep his eyes on that faithful Savior, and now do only what he sees and hears of Jesus...by that same Holy Spirit)
> He testified he would be shown "greater things".
> ...



"He learned obedience from the things which He suffered." (Heb. 5) … and the excuses fade away.



If I might presume to suggest a title for the above... 'A Response to “but”'.


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## Israel (Oct 27, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> "He learned obedience from the things which He suffered." (Heb. 5) … and the excuses fade away.
> 
> 
> 
> If I might presume to suggest a title for the above... 'A Response to “but”'.



amen.


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## barryl (Oct 28, 2012)

*Just trying to Help !*



Artfuldodger said:


> 1536: In his translation of the Bible from Greek into German, Luther removed 4 N.T. books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation) and placed them in an appendix saying they were less than canonical.
> 
> Could someone post a list of the New Testament Books that directly pertain to Gentiles? I realize they are all good for study purposes, history lessons, etc.


Directly to Gentiles, Romans- Philemon


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 28, 2012)

barryl said:


> Directly to Gentiles, Romans- Philemon



                                              Thanks


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## hawglips (Oct 31, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe there is a certain amount of obedience required for our Salvation. Luke 6:46-49



The bible teaches that beliefs are dead, without the works to go with them.  (Matt. 7:21, James 2:17)

Jesus said that there will be many that claim to believe on Him, and cry to Him, that will not be saved - due to their lack of good works towards others.  (Matt. 25: 31-46)


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 31, 2012)

hawglips said:


> The bible teaches that beliefs are dead, without the works to go with them.  (Matt. 7:21, James 2:17)
> 
> Jesus said that there will be many that claim to believe on Him, and cry to Him, that will not be saved - due to their lack of good works towards others.  (Matt. 25: 31-46)



Matthew 25:43-46 comes to mind;
I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

and Matt. 6:14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.


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## hawglips (Nov 17, 2012)

Israel said:


> Amen.
> Serving God in obedience is like the man who kisses the pretty girl because she asked him to.
> It's either:
> 
> ...



Christ said, "if ye love me, keep my commandments."  So he did ask us to kiss him.

But the ephiphany is understanding why he asked us to.

The above perspective doesn't take this into account.   And that is, the commandments are primarily for our benefit.  He gave us commandments so we can be happy.  

Folks look at commandments the wrong way.  Obedience is not for him, but for us.  It's like a father telling his 4 year old son he's not allowed to go into the street to play.  He understands the dangers, while the child doesn't.  He loves His children and wants them to grow, succeed and be happy.  He wants us to develop to our God-given potential, and He guides us on how to get there.  

Commandments aren't to weigh us down, but to build us up.  They aren't given to us to put us in bondage, but to set us free.  He has shown us the way of peace and happiness in this mortal life, and eternal life in the next, with commandments.

If we look at commandments in a negative light, then we need to search our heart and get right with the Lord.  

If we obey commandments to say "look what I have done", then we are just like the scribes and Pharisees who he said will not enter the kingdom of Heaven.  If we look down on those that want to obey the commandments, and tell them they are not saved, then maybe we are the modern day scribes and Pharisees.

But if we love the Lord, we will look at His commandments in a positive light, and we will want God's will for us to be our will for us.   And then we'll find the peace and joy and safety that only living the commandments of God will give us.


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## Israel (Nov 17, 2012)

hawglips said:


> Christ said, "if ye love me, keep my commandments."  So he did ask us to kiss him.
> 
> But the ephiphany is understanding why he asked us to.
> 
> ...


 
I think you may have misunderstood what was written.
The second response is pretty much what you have described.
"Oh, thank you for instructing me to do that"
Yes.
There is nothing of which we are instructed that is not specifically for our benefit.
And we find that out.


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## hawglips (Nov 17, 2012)

Yeah, I did misunderstand that.  

Thanks!


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 17, 2012)

hawglips said:


> Christ said, "if ye love me, keep my commandments."  So he did ask us to kiss him.
> 
> But the ephiphany is understanding why he asked us to.
> 
> ...



That's a pretty good lesson and way of explaining it.


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