# Duck Dog Problem



## HawgHunterMK (Jul 28, 2013)

Dog will heel and retriever on command but he immediately drops the bumper when he gets out of the water....anyone know how to force him to bring it to me?


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## Arrow3 (Jul 28, 2013)

Has the dog been force fetched ?


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## wgpeavy (Jul 29, 2013)

I'm certainly no pro, but I had the same issue with my dog.  I took a step back and started back in the yard.  I would toss a bumper or bird from the freezer and let him go get it.  When he returned I would make sure he dropped it at my feet, sat back down then I would reward him with a treat.  After doing this numerous times, it became much more habit for him then receiving a treat.  Now I still keep some treats in my pocket and reward him once in a while with one, but no longer on every retrieve.  Like I said, I'm no pro and there are plenty of guys on here with much more knowledge than me, but this worked for my lab.


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## mschlapa (Jul 29, 2013)

To solve that problem all you need to do is teach "hold" The whole FF process wont really be necessary so it should be something most anyone could do with out much prior experience.


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## Joe Overby (Jul 30, 2013)

Contrary to popular belief in the "meat dog" world...the correction is not on "hold" at all....but rather on here... the dog is violating not only the hold command but also the here command...but since enforcement of hold during a retrieve is impossible the correction is indirect on here. If said dog spits out bumper when corrected he is ear pinched all the way back to bird...so really ffing a dog COMPLETELY is the proper way to go rather than just putting a bandaid on a cut that needs stitches. 
Get a proven program or with a reputable pro or am. FF the dog COMPLETELY. You will be happy you did and it will be time well spent between you and your buddy.


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## waddler (Jul 30, 2013)

I cured that with a dog by using a trailer. I backed the trailer up to the training area and put a chair in it. Then I got into the chair with a bunch of treats and cheese. For some reason the dog would not drop the bumper until he jumped into the trailer. There was very little room on the trailer, so when he jumped on I could get my hands on him, make him hold the bumper, sit down and then get his treat after I took the bumper from him.

If you don't want to spend the money to have him force fetched, you might try this with the trailer partially in the water.


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## DukTruk (Jul 30, 2013)

Force Fetch actually has very little to do with fetching.  It teaches the dog how to respond to pressure.  You are telling the dog, If you don't follow the command, there is a consequence, and its going to get more intense the more you resist.

But what do I know......


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## jsav (Jul 30, 2013)

I agree with joe this dog needs to be ff.


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## nhancedsvt (Jul 30, 2013)

waddler said:


> I cured that with a dog by using a trailer. I backed the trailer up to the training area and put a chair in it. Then I got into the chair with a bunch of treats and cheese. For some reason the dog would not drop the bumper until he jumped into the trailer. There was very little room on the trailer, so when he jumped on I could get my hands on him, make him hold the bumper, sit down and then get his treat after I took the bumper from him.
> 
> If you don't want to spend the money to have him force fetched, you might try this with the trailer partially in the water.



What?


FF the dog.


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## chadf (Jul 30, 2013)

The answer has been given.

I'd be ear pinching all the way back to the dropped bird, after you FF them on the bench or run..... Tail gate will work in a pinch, but this Isnt a one hour fix. U got problems building everytime you allow this behavior.


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## watermedic (Jul 30, 2013)

A lot of folks disagree with force fetching. But they dont realize that the person who trained their hunting partner force fetched him for them.

It is all part of the training. How tough you are on them is dependant on how hard headed your dog is and how he responds to the ear pinch.  

Take your time but work them everyday for at least 30 minutes. You will have it done in a couple of weeks.


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## Joe Overby (Jul 30, 2013)

30 minutes of ear pinch??? I guess I need to change my program...


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## DukTruk (Jul 30, 2013)

- Treats are not the way to train a dog with long lasting results.  The dogs do it for the treat, not for the trainer (owner, etc).
-  If you don't know what you're doing, force fetch can do way more harm than it does good.  Leave it to the pros (there might be a few on here, you never know)
-  If you are not making progress with FF (or frankly with any concept), you need to back up a few steps and get it perfect.  30 minutes of ear pinch is not progress, its torture.


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## mschlapa (Jul 30, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> Contrary to popular belief in the "meat dog" world...the correction is not on "hold" at all....but rather on here... the dog is violating not only the hold command but also the here command...but since enforcement of hold during a retrieve is impossible the correction is indirect on here. If said dog spits out bumper when corrected he is ear pinched all the way back to bird...so really ffing a dog COMPLETELY is the proper way to go rather than just putting a bandaid on a cut that needs stitches.
> Get a proven program or with a reputable pro or am. FF the dog COMPLETELY. You will be happy you did and it will be time well spent between you and your buddy.


I FF all my dogs regardless how much natural retrieving instinct they have, its a must for what we do. I suggested "hold" only to address the dog spitting the bumper out when he got back to land. Completely FF a dog is the best and IMHO the only way to get a reliable retriever. When I first started learning to FF a dog I was taught not to teach the hold command at all, only fetch. After running into the issue of a dog wanting to drop the duck to shake when he got back on land I changed the way I do things. I now start out teaching hold and then progress into the fetch command.


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## Joe Overby (Jul 30, 2013)

Different people ff different ways...some teach hold till it us perfect...others don't dwell on it quite so long....I don't dwell. Reason being that "fetch" replaces hold when finished so I just don't see the point. If a dog gets out if the water and drops whatever it is to shake I don't even try to reinforce hold...the proper correction is here nick here and if fido returns without the bumper or whatever to ear pinch him back to it...no where does "hold" come into that equation. In my program hold is only used in the very beginning stages of ear pinch to help shape and reinforce proper behavior. Far be it from me to tell another how to ff their dog but its what works for me. FWIW, the reason I put pressure on here coming out of he water is because the dog starts to focus on coming back to here rather than stopping to shake and not thinking about pausing and dropping whatever is in its mouth. Will "hold" work?? Probably, but, IMO its just a bandaid not an proven method of correcting a bad behavior. 
Look at it very simply... if fido returns back to heel and spits the bumper will you command "hold" or "fetch"?? When fido comes out of he water the first infraction is him stopping, then spitting, then shaking, then refusing to fetch...so the correction is on the first infraction..not the second...or the last...the ear pinch back to the bumper is simply to reinforce a known command guaranteeing success and "showing" the dog what you expect.


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## watermedic (Jul 30, 2013)

Where did I say 30 minutes of ear pinch?

If you don't have the time to work your dog 30 minutes a session, you need to pay some one to do it.

He may sit there with a bumper or stick or dummy in his mouth for 15 of those 30 minutes.

Force fetching is not just returning to hand. It is picking up whatever you tell them to and holding it until you give the command to release.


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## Joe Overby (Jul 30, 2013)

Actually, ff is a pressure conditioning program designed to teach a dog to perform under pressure in a miriad of circumstances..."fetch" and "hold" are merely components...but if your end result is to simply pick stuff up and hold it until commanded to drop you are missing out on the other 90% of what a complete ff program teaches. It builds bottom, perseverance, and a stable response to known commands no matter the adversities...that far transcends simply picking stuff up.


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## watermedic (Jul 30, 2013)

No it doesn't. Your response was "a stable response to known commands no matter the adversities"

Hello!! Pick up what I tell you when I tell you and hold it as long as I tell you!!

Your definition just sugar coats the means to the end. The result is the same.


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## Joe Overby (Jul 30, 2013)

Wow....yes actually it does...and I don't sugarcoat anything. Force fetch is NOT ear pinch...and its not just pick something up...how about go as sent when sent...how about bust ice because your told not because you want to...how about take an over at 300yds into the wind...or an over off a point into big water at 285yds...that ain't got nothing to do with pick something up and hold it till I tell you otherwise. You have chosen to base your argument off of one component of an entire program while blatantly ignoring the bulk of both the content of a comprehensive program and the application and reasoning of the program in its entirety.


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## mschlapa (Jul 30, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> Different people ff different ways...some teach hold till it us perfect...others don't dwell on it quite so long....I don't dwell. Reason being that "fetch" replaces hold when finished so I just don't see the point. If a dog gets out if the water and drops whatever it is to shake I don't even try to reinforce hold...the proper correction is here nick here and if fido returns without the bumper or whatever to ear pinch him back to it...no where does "hold" come into that equation. In my program hold is only used in the very beginning stages of ear pinch to help shape and reinforce proper behavior. Far be it from me to tell another how to ff their dog but its what works for me. FWIW, the reason I put pressure on here coming out of he water is because the dog starts to focus on coming back to here rather than stopping to shake and not thinking about pausing and dropping whatever is in its mouth. Will "hold" work?? Probably, but, IMO its just a bandaid not an proven method of correcting a bad behavior.
> Look at it very simply... if fido returns back to heel and spits the bumper will you command "hold" or "fetch"?? When fido comes out of he water the first infraction is him stopping, then spitting, then shaking, then refusing to fetch...so the correction is on the first infraction..not the second...or the last...the ear pinch back to the bumper is simply to reinforce a known command guaranteeing success and "showing" the dog what you expect.



I agree with everything you are saying. For the types of hunting and testing we do it requires multiple different retrieves on land and water with game. We train on land until we are solid before ever moving to the water. By the time we are doing water work the dog is already doing 300 + yard retrieves on land and knows full well to return to me with the duck. Fetch means go out find the game, pick it up, return to me and sit to deliver, waiting for me to give the release command.  The hold command comes in handy when a dog is returning with game but may be rolling or "mouthing" it. I can say hold and stop that behavior because I worked on proper hold and mouth habits on the table and in the yard work.


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## Turkey Trax (Jul 30, 2013)

This thread is pretty funny. And the main reason why people should be able to say what needs to be said regardless of hurting a person's feelings, so as to help the dog despite the dumb dumb owners and terrible internet advice given by some that have no clue. And then you have the innocent bystander that reads advice given by said dumb dumbs and thus screws there dog up too.


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## watermedic (Jul 30, 2013)

I am talking about force fetching, not retrieving. Retrieving stops during the force fetch training. Fetch and hold are taught simultaneously by opening the mouth and placing the object inn the mouth with the command fetch. Then command hold to make sur that they don't drop it. As you progress, you will tap on the object while instilling the hold command. Usually this is done on a fetching board so the subject is at a comfortable level to work with. 

You are combining the complete training cycle. Many dogs will stop doing retrieves during the force fetch process as you are basically breaking them down and building them back up.


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## Arrow3 (Jul 30, 2013)

and here I thought Joe trained dogs for a living.....Turkey Trax, you have led me astray ......


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## watermedic (Jul 30, 2013)

He may do that. But that doesn't mean that his way is the only way does it. Although it may work for him. Broken down it is the same.


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## Joe Overby (Jul 30, 2013)

I have no idea how many dogs you have ff'd in your life but I know how many I have. 236. I know the steps...I had over 100 finished passes last year alone....I understand the application. This argument is the fundamental reason I HATE talking about ff on an internet forum. Everybody's an expert. 2 different professional trainers with extensive experience have said that ff isn't so much about fetch than it is pressure conditioning. But you fail to read that. I can continue to refute your every argument but in the end you will still believe you are right and that I am pompous and rude. 
Well forgive me but you sir are wrong. FF is not just about fetch. It is much much more. Your dog deserves you realizing that.


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## Joe Overby (Jul 30, 2013)

And in no way is mine and yours the same...


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## watermedic (Jul 30, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> Contrary to popular belief in the "meat dog" world...the correction is not on "hold" at all....but rather on here... the dog is violating not only the hold command but also the here command...but since enforcement of hold during a retrieve is impossible the correction is indirect on here. If said dog spits out bumper when corrected he is ear pinched all the way back to bird...so really ffing a dog COMPLETELY is the proper way to go rather than just putting a bandaid on a cut that needs stitches.
> Get a proven program or with a reputable pro or apm. FF the dog COMPLETELY. You will be happy you did and it will be time well spent between you and your buddy.




It's kind of amazing that I pretty much said the same thing you did and you have been arguing with me about it!!

HaHa!!


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## franklinZappa (Jul 30, 2013)

watermedic said:


> Where did I say 30 minutes of ear pinch?
> 
> If you don't have the time to work your dog 30 minutes a session, you need to pay some one to do it.
> 
> ...



Yep. There's a guy in Thomson, Georgia that fixed this problem for my buddy's dog. Let me see if I can find his number. Dog was gone for 1.5 months.


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## Turkey Trax (Jul 30, 2013)

Arrow3 said:


> and here I thought Joe trained dogs for a living.....Turkey Trax, you have led me astray ......



i know. im a moron. 

watermedic. i dont think any of us know you or your experience. so when does FF end for you? in other words when do you say a dog has been thoroughly force fetched? Im not talking time it takes, cause anyone that can tell you how long it takes to ff hasn't completely force fetched many.


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## ngaduck (Jul 30, 2013)

I can assure you that Joe does not sugar coat anything. 

Watermedic, what you are describing is, like others have said, a minute part of the process that does not involve trailers, chairs, or treats.


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## watermedic (Jul 30, 2013)

I completely agree as was stated in my first post. Depends on how stubborn or how timid the dog is. Could take as long as several months. I am not a "dog trainer". But have trained a few. The OP stated that his dog will heel and retrieve on command so I assume that basic obedience is complete. If he retrieves, that's great! I believe that force fetch should be taught before retrieve. That is my belief. All of the 300 yd upwind stuff is competition not avg duck dogs. Only 30% of them willake the grade for that. No matter what some folks want to say.


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## Turkey Trax (Jul 30, 2013)

watermedic said:


> I completely agree as was stated in my first post. Depends on how stubborn or how timid the dog is. Could take as long as several months. I am not a "dog trainer". But have trained a few. The OP stated that his dog will heel and retrieve on command so I assume that basic obedience is complete. If he retrieves, that's great! I believe that force fetch should be taught before retrieve. That is my belief. All of the 300 yd upwind stuff is competition not avg duck dogs. Only 30% of them willake the grade for that. No matter what some folks want to say.



you didnt answer my question. When is FF complete in your system?  Not timetable.


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## ngaduck (Jul 30, 2013)

watermedic said:


> I completely agree as was stated in my first post. Depends on how stubborn or how timid the dog is. Could take as long as several months. I am not a "dog trainer". But have trained a few. The OP stated that his dog will heel and retrieve on command so I assume that basic obedience is complete. If he retrieves, that's great! I believe that force fetch should be taught before retrieve. That is my belief. All of the 300 yd upwind stuff is competition not avg duck dogs. Only 30% of them willake the grade for that. No matter what some folks want to say.



So you don't think that pups should have marks before FF? Interesting. And 300yd upwind "stuff" is not just for competition. My little black wench may fall into your said 30% because she cannot handle the pressures of the test environment, but she has made numerous several hundred yard blinds in flooded fields through ditches, over levees, through nasty muck and mud, and some even upwind. So yeah, the average duck dog should be able to push through those types of conditions.


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## watermedic (Jul 30, 2013)

It may never be complete. But actual force fetching in the timeline of training may be one of the factors that a dog trainer has to say that "he is not cut out for this". any one who says that they have successfully trained every dog that they have tried is a liar. Hunting or competition. To me that is two totally different animals. 

But again, that is my opinion.


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## Turkey Trax (Jul 30, 2013)

watermedic said:


> It may never be complete. But actial force fetching in the timeline of training may be one of the factors that a dog trainer has to say that "he os not cut out for this". any one who says that they have successfully trained every dog that they have tried is a liarIt all depends on what the owner wants as a finished product. Hunting or competition. To me that is two totally different animals.
> 
> But again, that is my opinion.



you're dodging the question. so let me make it easier. If you are working a dog that is progressing somewhat reasonably well. What is the last step you do and say, "this dog has been force fetched." Just trying to understand where you are coming from in your previous statements and advice.


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## RUTTNBUCK (Jul 30, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> I have no idea how many dogs you have ff'd in your life but I know how many I have. 236. I know the steps...I had over 100 finished passes last year alone....I understand the application. This argument is the fundamental reason I HATE talking about ff on an internet forum. Everybody's an expert. 2 different professional trainers with extensive experience have said that ff isn't so much about fetch than it is pressure conditioning. But you fail to read that. I can continue to refute your every argument but in the end you will still believe you are right and that I am pompous and rude.
> Well forgive me but you sir are wrong. FF is not just about fetch. It is much much more. Your dog deserves you realizing that.


I'm not a pro, but FF is a foundation concept taught to teach relief of pressure......(Whether it be toe hitch..........My prefered method if resources are available!!).......Ear pinch, and later on E-Collar!!

 This is a foundation concept that is later transferred to other concepts!!

The pressure is relieved when the command is performed!!

Wish I had known this with our first dog!!


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## watermedic (Jul 30, 2013)

RUTTNBUCK said:


> I'm not a pro, but FF is a foundation concept taught to teach relief of pressure......(Whether it be toe hitch..........My prefered method if resources are available!!).......Ear pinch, and later on E-Collar!!
> 
> This is a foundation concept that is later transferred to other concepts!!
> 
> Wish I had known this with our first dog!!





Exactly!!


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## ryano (Jul 30, 2013)

watermedic said:


> Hunting or competition. To me that is two totally different animals.
> 
> But again, that is my opinion.



How are they different animals???? Isn't the work and methods of getting to the desired results for both dogs the very same???


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## Turkey Trax (Jul 30, 2013)

ryano said:


> How are they different animals???? Isn't the work and methods of getting to the desired results for both dogs the very same???



yes. exactly the same.


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## RUTTNBUCK (Jul 30, 2013)

watermedic said:


> Exactly!!


They still need fun bumpers to reward good work!!


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## ryano (Jul 30, 2013)

And isn't FF the foundation on what all else is built on?

Why would anyone recommend any other method of curing  the OPs problem OTHER than complete FF?

I'm just curious. I'm new to the retriever world obviously.

Sure is funny when people that have no clue what they are talking about argue with Pros with PROVEN track records though. LOL


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## Turkey Trax (Jul 30, 2013)

youre just stirring up trouble now mitch. he thinks you're agreeing with him and you were agreeing with joe. 

you're treading on thin ice sir, and 1 more infraction and you're gone.


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## Arrow3 (Jul 31, 2013)

I still think Turkey Trax needs to be a moderator....Why hasn't Nicodemus made this happen?


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## Joe Overby (Jul 31, 2013)

watermedic said:


> It may never be complete. But actual force fetching in the timeline of training may be one of the factors that a dog trainer has to say that "he is not cut out for this". any one who says that they have successfully trained every dog that they have tried is a liar. Hunting or competition. To me that is two totally different animals.
> 
> But again, that is my opinion.



No, there is a point where ff is complete. And now I'm a liar too....water medic, you sure do know how to make friends around here.


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## watermedic (Jul 31, 2013)

RUTTNBUCK said:


> They still need fun bumpers to reward good work!!



I agree. Fun bumpers help relieve the stress brought on by training sessions. But not 200 yd blind retrieves. I believe that some of the posters on here are taking me out of context. 

For the OP to take his dog to a trainer and to have the trainer keep him until he is doing blind retrieves with whistle and hand commands he will spend a minimum of 6 months there. That puts the owner out $2400 an average.

It would be awesome, but everyone doesnt have the disposable income for that.

OH, an yes, the training is the same for field test and hunting dogs. But field test training continues after the hunting dog training ends. 

Everone doesnt carry white palmed gloves and mega whistles to the duck blind with them. 

Most GA duck hunters are hunting beaver swamps where shots are less than 30 yds and retrieves are less than 100 yds. 

I have no desire for my dog to do 300 yd blind retrieves since I am not going to field trial him.


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## watermedic (Jul 31, 2013)

Joe, 

There are trainers in this world with way more experience than you buddy. And yes, even they have to admit that some animals are not cut out to hunt.


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## Joe Overby (Jul 31, 2013)

My point was not that I am the most experienced...buddy...but that I was credible enough to post on this thread. You continue to post without any yourself and have yet to make a valid point. Be as coy as you want and not answer the questions asked you. 
Washing out dogs isn't training. You don't know me or my program or any dog i have trained for that matter. 
You mention those with more experience than myself...that's funny...I continue to learn from them...they are my mentors, peers, friends and training partners...maybe you should try to do the same.
Most thirst to learn...you just seem to wanna try and disprove the pro...


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## Turkey Trax (Jul 31, 2013)

So watermedic when is force fetch finished in your system? 

Is the training different to run a 300 yard blind than a 100 yard blind?


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## nhancedsvt (Jul 31, 2013)

watermedic said:


> I agree. Fun bumpers help relieve the stress brought on by training sessions. But not 200 yd blind retrieves. I believe that some of the posters on here are taking me out of context.
> 
> For the OP to take his dog to a trainer and to have the trainer keep him until he is doing blind retrieves with whistle and hand commands he will spend a minimum of 6 months there. That puts the owner out $2400 an average.
> 
> ...



No need to spend $2400. Here's the answer for $131. 

http://www.gundogsupply.com/smartwork-dvd-set.html


TT helped me with my dog immensely. She had all sorts of problems when I took her to him. FF fixed them. I have seen what is required of FF and he ear pinched her for I think 30 days straight? She was a completely different dog after that. Being ignorant of what FF meant, I thought after ear pinch she was done. Nope, he kept her two more months and there was still work that needed to be done when I got her home. We're still a work in progress. 

For the OP, you can trust what Turkey Trax and Joe are telling you. I don't know the other posters here, but you can take what those two guys say as the gospel. If all else fails you can listen to that ngaduck guy, he's ok....


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## nhancedsvt (Jul 31, 2013)

nhancedsvt said:


> No need to spend $2400. Here's the answer for $131.
> 
> http://www.gundogsupply.com/smartwork-dvd-set.html
> 
> ...



I got it for you piggy, don't worry pal. 

"Shut up scrammage"


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## ngaduck (Jul 31, 2013)

Hunting dog training does not end. You should have the desire for your dog to be capable of a 300yd blind. You owe it to the dog to take it as far as it can go in its training.


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## Turkey Trax (Jul 31, 2013)

do you have any white gloves i can borrow?


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## Turkey Trax (Jul 31, 2013)

nhancedsvt said:


> I have seen what is required of FF and he ear pinched her for I think 30 days straight? She was a completely different dog after that. Being ignorant of what FF meant, I thought after ear pinch she was done. Nope, he kept her two more months and there was still work that needed to be done when I got her home. We're still a work in progress.



52 days for ear pinch, to the ground, and collar fetch, some days twice. ftp and t work the next 2 months. and in spite of popular belief that FF that long will kill a dogs attitude and drive. His dog was as happy as could be and had real strong desire when she went back to getting marks. Another couple months and she would have been running some nice blinds. For her it took forever. Dont mean they all take that long. 6 days with my black dog and she was on to collar fetch. 
They all have their own schedules and their own walls they hit. Scrammages just hit the wall at the word "fetch".  took a little while to break the wall down.


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## ngaduck (Jul 31, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> do you have any white gloves i can borrow?



No but I've got a mega whistle you can put on your lanyard.


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## Turkey Trax (Jul 31, 2013)

I've got 3 and a half mega whistles.thanks though


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## ngaduck (Jul 31, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> I've got 3 and a half mega whistles.thanks though



Why so many? You only need them for field trials and they don't let possums run those.


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## krazybronco2 (Jul 31, 2013)

ngaduck said:


> Hunting dog training does not end. You should have the desire for your dog to be capable of a 300yd blind. You owe it to the dog to take it as far as it can go in its training.



X2

first let me say im in no way a pro trainer (training my first dog) but i do as much research as i can get my hands on and ask as many questions as i can when im at club training days or with a trainer. (and still not qualified to answer the op question)

but my personal belief is the dog first has to have a desire to retrieve before FF. also my belief is FF and obedience are never complete because you have to always renforce these commands at some point in time during the life of the dog.


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## Joe Overby (Jul 31, 2013)

ngaduck said:


> Why so many? You only need them for field trials and they don't let possums run those.



Because he eats the mouthpiece off watching a possum swim a 100 yd water blind....


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## nhancedsvt (Jul 31, 2013)

ngaduck said:


> Why so many? You only need them for field trials and they don't let possums run those.





Joe Overby said:


> Because he eats the mouthpiece off watching a possum swim a 100 yd water blind....


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## ryano (Jul 31, 2013)

watermedic said:


> For the OP to take his dog to a trainer and to have the trainer keep him until he is doing blind retrieves with whistle and hand commands he will spend a minimum of 6 months there. That puts the owner out $2400 an average.
> 
> .



How can you make such a blanket statement as if that's Gospel? 

Wouldn't that depend highly on the individual dog?

My dog will do that work and she wasn't gone anywhere near 6 months. More like 12 weeks.

That included CC, FF, FTP, hand casting and running basic pattern blinds out to 100 yards or so and also a SHR title while she was gone.

I just don't see how anyone can put a specific time limit or even a general time limit on training when each dog is different. Also I don't agree that training ever stops.

It's gonna take what time it takes.


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## PintailM2 (Jul 31, 2013)

Mr trax of turkeys No mega whistles on the dove field this year please.


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## Turkey Trax (Jul 31, 2013)

ngaduck said:


> Why so many? You only need them for field trials and they don't let possums run those.





Joe Overby said:


> Because he eats the mouthpiece off watching a possum swim a 100 yd water blind....



wow...take a break from fishing and sitting at the beach, wake up from my nap and im getting abused by my own friends.
this hurts.


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## fatboy84 (Jul 31, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> Because he eats the mouthpiece off watching a possum swim a 100 yd water blind....



He eats everything in site Joe.


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## Turkey Trax (Jul 31, 2013)

Sight


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## nhancedsvt (Jul 31, 2013)

fatboy84 said:


> He eats everything in site Joe.



Pot meet kettle


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## fatboy84 (Jul 31, 2013)

nhancedsvt said:


> Pot meet kettle



 Look who is talking


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## T Tolbert (Jul 31, 2013)

watermedic said:


> Most GA duck hunters are hunting beaver swamps where shots are less than 30 yds and retrieves are less than 100 yds.
> 
> I have no desire for my dog to do 300 yd blind retrieves since I am not going to field trial him.





You say that but when you have a goose down and you can't throw shotgun shells far enough you really wish that your dog could do that"field trial stuff "

Ask me how I know. 

Shotgun shells have a throwing range of about 60 yards. 

Rip chappy dog


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## Turkey Trax (Jul 31, 2013)

Good post trappy.


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## PintailM2 (Jul 31, 2013)

Shoulda had Bear that morning, but noooooooo.


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## king killer delete (Jul 31, 2013)

OH BACK IN THE DAY. fOX 40 IS AS LOUD AS A MEGA WHISTLE


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## ngaduck (Jul 31, 2013)

killer elite said:


> OH BACK IN THE DAY. fOX 40 IS AS LOUD AS A MEGA WHISTLE



Don't blow a fox40 with a hat on though. That is why the mega, green monster, etc whistles are better. They project the sound toward the dog instead of back at the handler.


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## Ze6464 (Jul 31, 2013)

This thread has me laughing. Watermedic. Joe Overby is well respected in the dog training world and he turns outs some jam up dogs. I seen them at hunt test. The man knows what he is doing. 

Ps I have enough white gloves to loan out to everyone.


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## watermedic (Aug 1, 2013)

I never said he wasn't. I am merely pointing out that there is more than one way to skin a cat!

Mike Lardy
Robert Milner
Jim Beverly
Ray Godwin
James Farmer

All of the above have different training schedules and ideas. But all have the same result.

And all of the above have at least 20 years of training under their belt and some are in the Hall of Fame!

Keep slamming me if you want. My statement was the average duck hunter does not need a field trial trained retriever. A gun dog yes. There is a huge difference in the training of a Gun Dog and a Master Hunter in price and ability!!

That is my point dont really care if you like it or not!!


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## quackwacker (Aug 1, 2013)

there is no difference in the way you train a hunting dog and a trial dog, the difference between the two is when the training stops.


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## watermedic (Aug 1, 2013)

Read what I wrote.

Price and ability are the difference. A good gun dog may not make the grade for a field trial dog. To me, I would expect the trainer to do a complete evaluation to determine if he has that ability.

Back to my other point that I made. Every animal is not field test able. No matter how much training they recieve.

And again, that is not washing out a dog, it is the fact of the matter.

also, if you read my earlier post, I stated that the difference is in the length of training.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 1, 2013)

quackwacker said:


> there is no difference in the way you train a hunting dog and a trial dog, the difference between the two is when the training stops.



so when does the training for a hunting dog stop? and when does the training for a FT dog stop?


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 1, 2013)

watermedic said:


> I never said he wasn't. I am merely pointing out that there is more than one way to skin a cat!
> 
> Mike Lardy
> Robert Milner
> ...



Can you please explain the difference in training for a duck dog and a master hunter/ finished titled dog?


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## watermedic (Aug 1, 2013)

Price and/or Time!!


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## Joe Overby (Aug 1, 2013)

Please explain to me how in the world you decided that Mike Lardy and Robert Milner have had the same results...now I have officially heard it all.


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## watermedic (Aug 1, 2013)

Dog obeys, doesnt break, retrieves on command to hand. Again Joe,

You are confusing a gun dog with a competion dog. At the finished gun dog point, they are equal!! Any thing above that is where the difference is.

Heck,

Look at Wildrose, they do not teach force fetch, they teach hold. Which you specifically said you dont do! 

Different methods, same result. 

Nothing I have said has been a personal attack on you. Can't say the same for your comments. I think that you feel that way because you are cocky, which is one of the traits that will make you succeed in your chosen profession.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 1, 2013)

Wildrose same results??? Lol.  Check the records.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 1, 2013)

watermedic said:


> Price and/or Time!!



this made no sense to me

please explain how price and/or time have anything to do with the actual training of any dog.


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## Joe Overby (Aug 1, 2013)

No man...no where are mike lardy and miners results the same. Mike has 7 national wins I believe?? Milner has 0. Mike has trained 91 field champions. Milner again 0. Mikes dogs collectively have obtained 22 national titles and he has handled 36 national finalists. Milner and lardy aren't even on the same planet. For that matter, the only other trainers on Earth that could claim to be in the same league with mike would be Danny Farmer and Judy Aycock.
For the record. Nothing I have said has been a personal attack on you...unless you consider me telling you that you're wrong an attack. I also am not cocky....you don't know me...please don't assume you know how I am. 
I am not confusing anything man. You are. You think there is a fundamental difference in a gun dog and a trial dog. For that you are wrong. People put labels on their dogs for a miriad of reasons..."insanely driven" to cover up a dog that breaks...."unbelievable nose" to cover up a dog who won't handle...and my personal favorite "meat dawg" to cover up an ill behaving, poorly bred, untrained dog. Often used in the same sentence as "trial dog" to let folks know that ht/ft aren't necessary in their world...and that the skill set possessed by "trial"type dogs aren't needed in the duck blind. 
There is no difference in the dog...only the owner. The training of a retriever whether it be for the blind or the line is the EXACT SAME FOR THE FIRST 2 YEARS.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 1, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> No man...no where are mike lardy and miners results the same. Mike has 7 national wins I believe?? Milner has 0. Mike has trained 91 field champions. Milner again 0. Mikes dogs collectively have obtained 22 national titles and he has handled 36 national finalists. Milner and lardy aren't even on the same planet. For that matter, the only other trainers on Earth that could claim to be in the same league with mike would be Danny Farmer and Judy Aycock.
> For the record. Nothing I have said has been a personal attack on you...unless you consider me telling you that you're wrong an attack. I also am not cocky....you don't know me...please don't assume you know how I am.
> I am not confusing anything man. You are. You think there is a fundamental difference in a gun dog and a trial dog. For that you are wrong. People put labels on their dogs for a miriad of reasons..."insanely driven" to cover up a dog that breaks...."unbelievable nose" to cover up a dog who won't handle...and my personal favorite "meat dawg" to cover up an ill behaving, poorly bred, untrained dog. Often used in the same sentence as "trial dog" to let folks know that ht/ft aren't necessary in their world...and that the skill set possessed by "trial"type dogs aren't needed in the duck blind.
> There is no difference in the dog...only the owner. The training of a retriever whether it be for the blind or the line is the EXACT SAME FOR THE FIRST 2 YEARS.



your last sentence has me puzzled, isnt the training still same for any dog after 2 years? the distances might be different but the concepts are still the same.


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## flattop (Aug 1, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> Wildrose same results??? Lol.  Check the records.



Wha......?


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## Joe Overby (Aug 1, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> your last sentence has me puzzled, isnt the training still same for any dog after 2 years? the distances might be different but the concepts are still the same.



No...not necessarily... trial dog will need more technical stuff...and a MUCH higher standard. Distance is only 1 very small part of the equation.....it is only one factor. Water is the big equalizer....
For the first 2 years the basics are the same night matter the game you play. FF, swim by, de cheat, channel work, on a point off a point, swim by a point, multiple re entries, island birds, 4 phase, hip pockets, in lines, indents, punch birds, retired guns, wipe out birds....its a lot in 2 years. Many don't know this but I started playing hts because I loved hunting...it made my "trial dog" a better hunting dog because the ht game forced me to train year round. 10 years later i still tell everyone of my clients if they'll commit to running the first and the last ht of every season it will force them to train and they will inadvertantly have a better dog for it.


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## watermedic (Aug 1, 2013)

If you are doing it yourself, it doesn't. I f you are paying $450-$700 a month for the training, a heap!!

Advanced training doesnt start until after basic training is complete.

To progress through the stages of competition requires points. You will not complete it in a year, or two, maybe five. So there is significant extra training cost if you are having a professional do it for you.

If that is the route you want to take, wonderful. That is not the topic. A great reason to have a professional train for competions is that the handler of the dog can make as much difference as the animal itself. They have worked together for a SIGNIFICANT amount of time and trust and respect each others abilities.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 1, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> No...not necessarily... trial dog will need more technical stuff...and a MUCH higher standard. Distance is only 1 very small part of the equation.....it is only one factor. Water is the big equalizer....
> For the first 2 years the basics are the same night matter the game you play. FF, swim by, de cheat, channel work, on a point off a point, swim by a point, multiple re entries, island birds, 4 phase, hip pockets, in lines, indents, punch birds, retired guns, wipe out birds....its a lot in 2 years. Many don't know this but I started playing hts because I loved hunting...it made my "trial dog" a better hunting dog because the ht game forced me to train year round. 10 years later i still tell everyone of my clients if they'll commit to running the first and the last ht of every season it will force them to train and they will inadvertantly have a better dog for it.



not trying to start anything or agrue with you but look at this setup that was sent to me yesterday. it looks alot like what you just mentioned (wipe out, hip pocket, retired guns, multipe cover changes, poison birds) the guy that sent this to me said it was one of the hardest set ups he has run in a long time and he is a HT and FT guy. i will admit it is quite a nasty setup but the concepts are still the same just at an advanced level. 

the order went G1 then run the blind, throw G2  turn and throw g3 pick up G3  then throw G4.

the pick up order was blind g3, g4, g2, g1


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## watermedic (Aug 1, 2013)

Ok Joe,

You are confusing me now. If multiple trainers train different dogs for 6 months and:

At the end of 6 months, all of the dogs are obedient, calm on the shot, retrieve on command and deliver to hand.

How are any different?

I very much understand the ribbons and trophys. But it doesnt take that to have a great gun dog, does it. If a person brings a dog for you to train and says "I want a basic gun dog". Are you going to say, "it's going to take 18 months of training".

Now going by current pricing, that would be $9900 in training fees plus $540 in maintenance fees (flea,tick,heartworm).

So $10,400 for training a gun dog. I am sure that 90 out of 100 clients can't write the check for that.

I am trying to be real here.

This is the point I have been trying to make


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## watermedic (Aug 1, 2013)

Also,

Robert Milner has had a couple of field champions.

Oh yeah, he is also the original owner of Wildrose Kennel.


----------



## bkl021475 (Aug 1, 2013)




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## Joe Overby (Aug 1, 2013)

Yes, that's exactly what I'm going to tell them. BECAUSE, I won't hunt with most "gun dogs". I don't believe in hunting a dog until its around 18 months old. Life is entirely too short to hunt with an unfinished retriever. I only hunt with like minded individuals and comparable dogs. Call me a snob...fine...you are welcome to your opinion. I just don't care to be in a blind with a dog and a handler, neither of which understand etiquette, how to run a blind, the importance of poison bird and in line concepts, who breaks, who won't deliver to hand, who is generally unruly, who whines, and who makes excuses for the dogs inabilities and short comings when in truth it is because of the handlers ignorance and laziness that the dog is incapable of being a functioning member of a hunting team. Id rather hunt with my "trial" dogs...


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## nhancedsvt (Aug 1, 2013)

watermedic said:


> Ok Joe,
> 
> You are confusing me now. If multiple trainers train different dogs for 6 months and:
> 
> ...



I'm confused, what EXACTLY is the point you've been trying to make?


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## Joe Overby (Aug 1, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> not trying to start anything or agrue with you but look at this setup that was sent to me yesterday. it looks alot like what you just mentioned (wipe out, hip pocket, retired guns, multipe cover changes, poison birds) the guy that sent this to me said it was one of the hardest set ups he has run in a long time and he is a HT and FT guy. i will admit it is quite a nasty setup but the concepts are still the same just at an advanced level.
> 
> the order went G1 then run the blind, throw G2  turn and throw g3 pick up G3  then throw G4.
> 
> the pick up order was blind g3, g4, g2, g1



OK...so what is your question?? Looks like a fun set up to me.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 1, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> Yes, that's exactly what I'm going to tell them. BECAUSE, I won't hunt with most "gun dogs". I don't believe in hunting a dog until its around 18 months old. Life is entirely too short to hunt with an unfinished retriever. I only hunt with like minded individuals and comparable dogs. Call me a snob...fine...you are welcome to your opinion. I just don't care to be in a blind with a dog and a handler, neither of which understand etiquette, how to run a blind, the importance of poison bird and in line concepts, who breaks, who won't deliver to hand, who is generally unruly, who whines, and who makes excuses for the dogs inabilities and short comings when in truth it is because of the handlers ignorance and laziness that the dog is incapable of being a functioning member of a hunting team. Id rather hunt with my "trial" dogs...



Take a nap snob. I'm gonna come to the tech pond this evening and play with a couple dogs. Both of which are now in heat.  

Oh yeah and I agree with your above description of what kind of dog we like to hunt with.


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## Joe Overby (Aug 1, 2013)

All that set up is doing is teaching a retired gun concept...hence the throw a single, run a blind, throw a double pick up short bird to retire lon bird and then delay the retired bird with another mark...pretty standard teaching setup.


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## Joe Overby (Aug 1, 2013)

watermedic said:


> Also,
> 
> Robert Milner has had a couple of field champions.
> 
> Oh yeah, he is also the original owner of Wildrose Kennel.


I don't care what he originally owned. Day in day out his dogs and now Mike Stewarts dogs cannot perform with an american field bred, Carr based program trained "trial" dog. And I'll put my money where my mouth is EVERY time. 
Listen you obviously think that there's a difference between gun dogs and trial dogs...come see me...I'll bet you I change your mind.


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## Nicodemus (Aug 1, 2013)

Ya`ll go easy on the name calling of individuals. Libel issues are a very real threat.

Thanks.


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## watermedic (Aug 1, 2013)

Nic, those are buddies poking at each other.

I understand your point of view Joe, and that is your vision. That can not be everyones vision though. Dogs trained to the point of which you are referring to are not commonplace. If they were, pups with a bloodline wouldn't $1000s of dollars and training would not be at the cost it is. 

In the right area that would not be a problem. But in the rural areas, the avg guy wont swallow it.

Good Luck to you! If I am in the area, don't be surprised if I call and stop by. I love to watch well trained dogs work. But the amount that I hunt wouldn't justify having an animal like that. It wouldn't be fair to it.


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## watermedic (Aug 1, 2013)

nhancedsvt said:


> I'm confused, what EXACTLY is the point you've been trying to make?



I guess that you need to go back to the beginning and read all of this thread if you haven't figured that out yet.


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## KNorman (Aug 2, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> All that set up is doing is teaching a retired gun concept...hence the throw a single, run a blind, throw a double pick up short bird to retire lon bird and then delay the retired bird with another mark...pretty standard teaching setup.



Building memory and holding lines too....


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## Joe Overby (Aug 2, 2013)

Yep...memory with the interrupted double and the delayed marks and lines and pictures with the gaps and leaving the long bird till last having to push past the shorter marks. Looks like a Wednesday to me...


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## Joe Overby (Aug 2, 2013)

There are a couple of things I would do differently though... I would retire gun 1 instead of 2 and I would reverse the throw of 2. Instead of L to R I would throw g2 R to L and make the dog run past the fall of the 2 to get to the longer g1. As it is set up now g1 is a standout and g2 is a retired "check down" bird...


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## KNorman (Aug 2, 2013)

The following is merely my personal opinion. 

First, while the basics and transition phases are indeed taught the same for gun dogs and field trial dogs, it has been my experience that trial dog standards have to be much higher. There simply isn't room for basics/transition work that isn't to the highest standard possible. 

Second, FF is a systematic approach that teaches a dog to deal with the problems associated with pressure. The classic example is as a foundation for running blinds. While good mouth habits may indeed be a by-product of the FF process, they're not the end goal. 

Third, the idea that if someone doesn't have 30 minutes or more to train a dog each session should hire a pro is absurd. Every trainer I know does the best they can based on their $$$ flow, work schedule, and life in general. 
There are many days that I only have time for one marking set up and it might only take 15 minutes. The key is to try to be consistent and get out there as often as you can. Sure, more marks in general is desirable, but not always possible. 
Although I primarily train with an amateur group, I have no problem with pro trainers. Indeed, many of them are some of my best friends, but the reality for me is they know I can't afford to send a dog to them. If I train with them, I try to bring birds, bike, lunch, etc. and always get out there and throw. In exchange, they give me tips and pointers that help me and my dogs.

Fourth, the idea that certain professional trainers mentioned in this thread are as "good" as Mike, Danny, Judy, etc is ridiculous. "A" list pros (and Am's) are called that because they produce dogs that win. I would add Dave Rorem and Jerry Patopea to the "A" list.

These are just my opinions based on training my own dogs for the past 30 years. I'm a HT and FT judge and have produced MH, GRHRCH, and competitive AA FT dogs.  YMMV


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## Joe Overby (Aug 2, 2013)

Happy, happy, happy


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## KNorman (Aug 2, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> There are a couple of things I would do differently though... I would retire gun 1 instead of 2 and I would reverse the throw of 2. Instead of L to R I would throw g2 R to L and make the dog run past the fall of the 2 to get to the longer g1. As it is set up now g1 is a standout and g2 is a retired "check down" bird...



I do not disagree with your comments Joe, and we do work on those concepts, however, we were working on short retired checks with plenty of room to go long. The G1 is a draw. Once they got to G2, there was G1 pulling them out if they bounced off the cover. 

Since I'm the one who drew that sketch, I'll mention a few things. First, these are young AA dogs running in difficult cover and terrain, so we thought it better to loosen it up just a tad. We did debate throwing it like you stated.  

Second, by necessity, we were using bumpers so the scent was somewhat minimal...if they didn't check, that wide open field just invited them to go long into G1. 

Lol....there really is only so much info you can put on a sketch!


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## Joe Overby (Aug 2, 2013)

Oh no man....i wasn't criticizing at all...I like...check that...love the set up. There are a miriad of options to run with that piece of ground and with that set up...couldve indented one or retired 2 or any number of things to make it harder or easier depending on the skill level of the dog. You could even break it down and teach it in "pieces" if you will...ie g1 and the blind, g2,3,and 4 as a delay... or a double double and a blind and then stick it all together...options options and more options. GREAT training setup. 
You said it was for young AA dogs right?? It looms like what I run my qual dogs on. Like I said...looks like a lot of fun!


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## KNorman (Aug 2, 2013)

Yep, it's for 2 young AA dogs. Both are QAA and are in that "just learning real All Age work" stage.  

At 5, my dog is behind the curve (I lost almost 2 years of training with him due to a divorce). Still, he has his moments and is really puttig things together. I've only run 4 All Age stakes with him and we've gotten to either the third or fourth every time. Just no color yet. 

My training partner's dog just turned 3 and is simply an outstanding young dog with an Open placement at 2.

I'd love to be training more, but with the heat right now, we're limited to meeting at 6am and running....then changing into our work clothes and going to make a living. 

I wish I had a pic of the set, it would be much clearer. It's a beautiful piece of property with all sorts of factors....slopes, clean ditches, cattail ditches, a bowl, tree clumps, etc. All in the middle of a city!


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## KNorman (Aug 2, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> Oh no man....i wasn't criticizing at all...I like...check that...love the set up. There are a miriad of options to run with that piece of ground and with that set up...couldve indented one or retired 2 or any number of things to make it harder or easier depending on the skill level of the dog. You could even break it down and teach it in "pieces" if you will...ie g1 and the blind, g2,3,and 4 as a delay... or a double double and a blind and then stick it all together...options options and more options. GREAT training setup.
> You said it was for young AA dogs right?? It looms like what I run my qual dogs on. Like I said...looks like a lot of fun!



No problem....I don't take it as criticism at all.

I've been trying to help out krazybronco by sending him occasional sketches and pics of our sets, so he can look at fields and start to dissect them for marking opportunities. 

I hope he looks at your comments and learns something.


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## king killer delete (Aug 3, 2013)

I force broke my first dog before most of you were born. Now I am gona tell you how  old school I am. I did not read a book or watch a DVD or use a program like all you guys have done. The man that taught me how to force fetch a dog trained the 1981 National Derby champion. You can sugar coat it all you want. To fix the problem the dog needs to be force fetched and then forced to the pile. Its not some big thing it needs to be done. for you meat dog folks when it 10 degrees out side and your dog has retrieved that first bird and that second flight of birds comes in and you have just killed your first trophy Bull Sprig or Canvas back and the bird is floating away on the current in the river and you put your hand down to line your dog to the bird and you call his name and he balks and then you yell as loud as you can backkkk and he  looks up at you with those big eyes and says to you not to day dad. You will know why you should have force fetched and force him to a pile. Teach him hold give me a break. Give the dog a command and do not take anything less  than what you demand otherwise you set your dog up for failure. That's old school.


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## KNorman (Aug 4, 2013)

> Keep slamming me if you want. My statement was the average duck hunter does not need a field trial trained retriever. A gun dog yes. There is a huge difference in the training of a Gun Dog and a Master Hunter in price and ability!!



Perhaps the average hunter does not need a "field trial trained retriever",  but please understand that your terminology is incorrect regarding Master Hunters. 

A Master Hunter is NOT a "field trial trained retriever". It is a hunt test trained retriever.  

Certainly, a MH is a VERY worthy goal and to achieve it takes a lot of hard work and training, but to compare a MH with a truely competitive All Age dog is laughable. Most All Age dogs would mop up a Master set and look for more, the reverse is generally not true. 

I have no problem with "gun dogs", "hunt test dogs", or "field trial dogs".  In the end, people will train to whatever level they're satisfied with...and that's okay.


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## Joe Overby (Aug 4, 2013)

I believe what the majority of us jumped on him over was the statement that he believes "There is a huge difference in the training of a Gun Dog and a Master Hunter in price and ability!!"...In my opinion and the opinion of many others on here is that the training is the EXACT same...the money MAY be different depending on the dog, the pro, and the amount of time it takes to reach the goal.  
The other huge problem with his statement is his assumption that he knows what I, you, or another duck hunter "needs"...it is merely his opinion of what he believes is an acceptable level of performance while hunting by the dog.  His "acceptable", my "acceptable", and your "acceptable" may all be completely different...don't assume to know what I need.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 4, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> There are a couple of things I would do differently though... I would retire gun 1 instead of 2 and I would reverse the throw of 2. Instead of L to R I would throw g2 R to L and make the dog run past the fall of the 2 to get to the longer g1. As it is set up now g1 is a standout and g2 is a retired "check down" bird...



joe and kevin by throwing G2 r to l and retiring G1 would you be teaching memory will running through an old fall? or would it be more complex than that?


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## Joe Overby (Aug 4, 2013)

Its not quite that simple...it's a "punch-bird" concept at that point so its not just memory...its a relationship between the marks that the dog recognizes and whether or not he "remembers" the long bird or not if he recognizes the "relationship" he knows he has to push past the shorter fall.  But much like the "check-down" concept in the original sketch if the dog sucks to the standout gun it puts him in a position to be unsuccessful.  Its more than just memory.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 4, 2013)

all i know is all our dogs looked like dumb meat dogs yesterday on the tech pond...

still licking my wounds regards.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 4, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> Its not quite that simple...it's a "punch-bird" concept at that point so its not just memory...its a relationship between the marks that the dog recognizes and whether or not he "remembers" the long bird or not if he recognizes the "relationship" he knows he has to push past the shorter fall.  But much like the "check-down" concept in the original sketch if the dog sucks to the standout gun it puts him in a position to be unsuccessful.  Its more than just memory.



so let me see if im understanding what you are saying. 

since G2 was not retired the dog has both an old fall and a gunner which is pretty darn tempting for the dog to break down and start hunting. but the concept to understand to push (punch) through both factors to get to the next bird. after the dog is past both sources of suction that is when the memory has to kick in since there is not a gunner there to help draw the dog up to the mark.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 4, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> so let me see if im understanding what you are saying.
> 
> since G2 was not retired the dog has both an old fall and a gunner which is pretty darn tempting for the dog to break down and start hunting. but the concept to understand to push (punch) through both factors to get to the next bird. after the dog is past both sources of suction that is when the memory has to kick in since there is not a gunner there to help draw the dog up to the mark.



i would say so and its more like what Joe said about the relationship of the 2 birds that the dog begins to recognize and whether he remembers the deep bird or not he knows, ive already been there before (to the short bird), so i HAVE to punch through deep. Then i guess hopefully, the dog has taken a good enough line to put him in the AOF or once he gets out there, memory kicks in and its "oh yeah, there's a bird out here too..."


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 4, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> i would say so and its more like what Joe said about the relationship of the 2 birds that the dog begins to recognize and whether he remembers the deep bird or not he knows, ive already been there before (to the short bird), so i HAVE to punch through deep. Then i guess hopefully, the dog has taken a good enough line to put him in the AOF or once he gets out there, memory kicks in and its "oh yeah, there's a bird out here too..."



gotcha thanks trax


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## king killer delete (Aug 4, 2013)

*I think most folks here understand that*



KNorman said:


> Perhaps the average hunter does not need a "field trial trained retriever",  but please understand that your terminology is incorrect regarding Master Hunters.
> 
> A Master Hunter is NOT a "field trial trained retriever". It is a hunt test trained retriever.
> 
> ...


 You wana see my National Retreiver Club pin.  You know some of the first hunt test were run in Georgia not LA. Allot of folks have a super great dog and a pro working with that dog everyday. Some folks do not have the time or the money to do this. And I have seen a National Rereiver Champion turn over a trash can.


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## KNorman (Aug 5, 2013)

killer elite said:


> You wana see my National Retreiver Club pin.  You know some of the first hunt test were run in Georgia not LA. Allot of folks have a super great dog and a pro working with that dog everyday. Some folks do not have the time or the money to do this. And I have seen a National Rereiver Champion turn over a trash can.



I fail to see your point.....if there is one.


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## KNorman (Aug 5, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> so let me see if im understanding what you are saying.
> 
> since G2 was not retired the dog has both an old fall and a gunner which is pretty darn tempting for the dog to break down and start hunting. but the concept to understand to push (punch) through both factors to get to the next bird. after the dog is past both sources of suction that is when the memory has to kick in since there is not a gunner there to help draw the dog up to the mark.



One of the things that krazy knows, but wasn't really said in my/our description of that set, was that it was thrown by ONE person. So, that necessitated the interruptions as the thrower had to move to the next station. 

Ideally, if I had two throwers (at G1 and G2) throwing birds and a winger at G4, I might throw G1, then G2 (from r-l), then G4 (deleting G3). 
Pick up G4, then check into the retired G2 while leaving G1 out as a draw. After the dog picks up G2, then retire G1 for the punch...

It would almost be an over-under, but you could loosen G2 a little and put that bird in front of the trees.


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## king killer delete (Aug 5, 2013)

*Sorry you missed it*



KNorman said:


> I fail to see your point.....if there is one.


Sorry you missed it.


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## KNorman (Aug 5, 2013)

killer elite said:


> Sorry you missed it.



I was quoting WaterMedic's statement that a MH is a "field trial dog".

My comment had nothing to do with you.


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## king killer delete (Aug 5, 2013)

KNorman said:


> I was quoting WaterMedic's statement that a MH is a "field trial dog".
> 
> My comment had nothing to do with you.


Got you. I hate to tell WaterMedic. 99% of the time its not even close. Concepts can be a whole lot different. Back before hunt test Field Trial folks would say that a good Qualifying dog was a good hunting dog. Not all but most dogs that are MH will be in way over their head in a Qual. the AM and Open would be. Pick up your dog please. Now that I have said it I once had a dog that was 2 points away from his FC. He was also a great AKC MH. He was a good one that died way to early.


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## watermedic (Aug 6, 2013)

So a year and a half old that competes in juniors at hunt tests wouldn't be able to compete at the derby level?

A Master Hunter couldn't compete at the qualifying stake?

This whole debate started when I stated that a gun dog does not need to be a master hunter or a field champion.

You guys confuse me with your responses.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 6, 2013)

watermedic said:


> So a year and a half old that competes in juniors at hunt tests wouldn't be able to compete at the derby level?
> 
> A Master Hunter couldn't compete at the senior level?
> 
> ...



No. A junior level hunt test dog is NO WHERE near what a competitive Derby Dog is.

Your 2nd question makes no sense, since Master level work is a step above Senior level work in hunt tests. Of course a master hunter could compete at the senior level.


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## watermedic (Aug 6, 2013)

Sorry about that. I fixed my statement.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 6, 2013)

watermedic said:


> Sorry about that. I fixed my statement.



some Master Hunters COULD compete in a qualifying stake and some could not.


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## Joe Overby (Aug 6, 2013)

MOST MH's don't have a prayer of even getting out of the first series of a qual...much less being competitive.


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## Joe Overby (Aug 6, 2013)

TT..ask Bruce about the 510 yd memory bird at the derby at Cooper Black a year ago....
Then ask him about the 550 yd memory bird of the qual about a month later...the blind was 480...


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## watermedic (Aug 6, 2013)

I couldnt even see a bird at 500 yds to remember it!! Then I would get lost trying to find it!


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## Joe Overby (Aug 6, 2013)

Funny thing is, a client if mine spends a considerable amount of time snow goose hunting every season...one of his dogs had 3 retrieves over 500 yds in one hunt this year. He had 15+ retrieves over 300...in the same hunt. Just cause we can't see it don't mean the dog can't.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 6, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> TT..ask Bruce about the 510 yd memory bird at the derby at Cooper Black a year ago....
> Then ask him about the 550 yd memory bird of the qual about a month later...the blind was 480...



sounds like fun.


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## king killer delete (Aug 6, 2013)

*I tell folks all the time to go run a derby and a Qual.*



watermedic said:


> So a year and a half old that competes in juniors at hunt tests wouldn't be able to compete at the derby level?
> 
> A Master Hunter couldn't compete at the qualifying stake?
> 
> ...


Since I have played the two games I will tell what the problems are . Today I went to work. If I was training a dog for hunt test or a Field trial dog. I would maybe have a small window of time that I might be able to train. Now add the heat. Today when I got up and went to work a pro got up some where up north and trained dogs from sun up to sunset. It was cool outside and the dogs he trained  got a bunch of training. If he had a big operation he may have had two or three helpers. These guys were running drills doing yard work, what ever else that needed to be done. All this was done while your dog sat in a kennel and waited for you to get home to maybe spend some time with him. Now if you have a wife and kids don't forget you had to pick up little Jimmy at day care and the wife wants you to pick up  something from store for supper. All this time that pro is now doing walking marks and working on concepts. Its late in the day and its 65 degrees out side where the pro is training. It was 95 where you are in Georgia today. This week end you hope to train your dog after little Jimmys ball game. Oh yea don't forget your wife wants you to go to the mall. If that pro is not at a Field trial he is training. White coats and flyers today cause we are off this week end. Remember that pro makes his living training dogs and I mean winners. No rep for winning trials no dogs no money. You are still at the mall with little Jimmy and the wife. Where is your dog, he is in his kennel at the house.  Allot of great hunting dogs that are well trained dogs but its hard to compete with a machine called field trials that's been around allot longer than the hunt test. Oh yea lets not forget the next Friday which is when the derby starts and the qual is starting, That nice lady in the BMW just pulled up and gets out of her car. Pressed white Jacket that is taylor made to fit and those very tight black leather calf skin gloves with her oakleys and her sun visor on. The pro hands her the leash to her dog and she now walks to the holding blind. Sat morning you are in the holding blind at a started  hunt test with your dog. Can you compete with that maybe.


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## KNorman (Aug 7, 2013)

While I understand your viewpoint killer elite, I'm not sure I totally agree....

An Amateur with a talented dog who works hard and doesn't send their dog north with a pro does have the advantage of knowing their dog. 

Field trials are what they are...if you're a working Joe and expect to go up against the pros or the Am's who have tons of money, you best do your training and learn to handle well. 

Granted, the odds are against you, but it sure feels nice when you place ahead of the A list guys on a limited budget. 

So....tomorrow, I will get up at 5 and meet my training partner and run our sets. Hope springs eternal!!!!


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## king killer delete (Aug 8, 2013)

*You are right*



KNorman said:


> While I understand your viewpoint killer elite, I'm not sure I totally agree....
> 
> An Amateur with a talented dog who works hard and doesn't send their dog north with a pro does have the advantage of knowing their dog.
> 
> ...


 I have helped train some dogs that were  amateur trained that turned out to be AFC and one FC. But for the average person its not in the cards. The reason we have hunt test today is that we had allot of great dogs that were never going to FC or AFC level dogs. The hunt test has improved the hunting dog levels all over the country and I am not down on hunting dogs. But its sort of like this. When I went to High school I played football and I even lettered playing 9th grade football.  But I never made it to the actual high school team. Some guys did and were great football players but did not make it to the college level. Some guys did make it to the college level but never got close to the NFL.  A master Hunting dog is sort of like the great college ball player some may make it to the NFL but the odds are not with him. That does not mean he should not try. But you know yourself that you can have a great dog, play the Fld Trial game and not come up with an AFC or an FC. Those Amateurs that play the game and win and you got to win  are very different folks with way above average dogs. They have to be to compete at that level. A big difference is in one game you run against a standard and the other game is who has the best dog. Let us not forget the politics involved in the two games. Its there. But you are right everybody can compete and I urge everybody to do so. Just know what you are doing when you go. Good Luck.


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## king killer delete (Aug 8, 2013)

*Good luck to you*



KNorman said:


> While I understand your viewpoint killer elite, I'm not sure I totally agree....
> 
> An Amateur with a talented dog who works hard and doesn't send their dog north with a pro does have the advantage of knowing their dog.
> 
> ...


What stake are you in?


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## KNorman (Aug 8, 2013)

killer elite said:


> What stake are you in?



All Age stakes.


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## king killer delete (Aug 8, 2013)

*How many points do you have*



KNorman said:


> All Age stakes.


for your FC?


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## KNorman (Aug 8, 2013)

No points yet. The dog is young. This fall will be his breakout season.


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## Anonymoushaha12 (Aug 10, 2013)

Get em watermed!!! U the man!!!


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 14, 2013)

so all the foolishness of this thread is just gonna die out like that??


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## waterdogs (Aug 15, 2013)

I have enjoyed reading this thread. A lot of info


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## king killer delete (Aug 17, 2013)

You think I can make my beagle a duck dog? he already ducks when I swing.


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