# Marking concepts



## krazybronco2 (Aug 15, 2013)

thought this would help some guys that are training retrievers for tests, trials, or even hunting season Knorman sent this to me today and sometime next week I will be trying to run this with Belle just to get straighter lines and to run past old falls and for testing to run past gunners. the good old abcd drill with 5 gunners and all you need is 5 big white bumpers and one person to throw for you. if anyone has some other marking concepts post some pics of set up what you need and any pointers


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## Tag-a-long (Aug 16, 2013)

Ben I really enjoyed the latter parts of that Duck Dog Problem thread last week ... some of the most useful conversation we've had on here in ages.  I'd like to see more of that.  

Help me out with your diagram.  I assume you run the marks sequentially 1-5.  It's a little hard to tell  from the photo which numbers go with which lines, the direction  of the throw and  where they land in relation to the other marks.  Could  you give a few more details to go with it? Or maybe draw it out on paper so we can visualize it better?


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## KNorman (Aug 16, 2013)

This particular ABCD drill is run with a thrower dressed in white, 5 bumpers and 4 stickmen.  I would call it an in-line with an additional gun off to the side. 

There are several ways to set up ABCD drills. Two of the most popular are a "W" and a Diamond 5. 

The throws are all SINGLES run on a relatively featureless field. Usually, the distances are pretty short, no more than 200 yards. 

The goals are: looking long past short guns, developing tight straight lines past gun stations, pushing past old falls, checking down in front of long guns, and minimization of head swinging. There are other benefits too that I'm sure others like Joe Overby will add. 

ABCD drills can be tailored for a dog's level. For example, with a young dog being introduced to a basic ABCD drill, I generally like to start with a "W" set up. For this, you place your 5 stickmen in the shape of a W with the top of the W being the three long guns and the bottom being the two short guns. 
Generally, I run the long guns for awhile just to get the dog used to looking past the short guns and used to clipping past them. Later, you can switch it up and throw the short guns for checks, and eventually, you end up with multiple concepts such as this set in the photo. 

For this particar set, it was 1 (r-l) thrown loosely off the short 2 gun....then 2 (l-r) with a long throw to get the dog to check in front of 4. 3 is next thrown tight to 2 so the dog has to clip past 2 and under the previous fall. Repeat the concept of clipping past 3 with 4's throw (r-l). Then ending with 5 (l-r) clipping tight past 2 on the opposite side. 

The thing to remember about ABCD drills is that it should be a low pressure type drill. Don't use many (if any) collar corrections, especially when in the proximity of a gun station because you don't want to defeat the idea of the drill. We generally just recall and re-send if we get a poor initial line, handle if the dog flares a gun, or have the gun help if a dog blows through or misses a mark. If a dog checks into a short old fall, we generally just hey hey 'em and pump another bumper to pull them out. It really helps to have an experienced bird boy who can read the dog and help.

Some people, especially hunters, may question using stickmen since you won't ever see a guy in white throwing birds out in the hunting fields. However, they're missing the primary purpose of the drill, which is to take nice straight lines to a bird and develop good depth perception.  A dog that does this is much more likely to arrive in the area of fall and set up a productive hunt. 

You'll notice our stickmen are Butch Green models, which cost about $65 apiece. Kinda pricey, but we use them daily and have found it well worth the cost.  However, you can easily make stickmen out of just about anything. Old white t-shirts on a hanger hung on a plastic electric fence post  (from Tractor Supply) is a good cheap alternative. Also a Tyvek paint suit makes an acceptable stickman. You can make your own for about $5 apiece if you are creative.

I like ABCD drills to maintain good lines on marks around gun stations, so we tend to run them at least once a week, even with very advanced FT dogs. We ran a good one a couple weeks ago with a National Finalist and he looked very common. Quite unusual for him, but I guess that's training.


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## king killer delete (Aug 16, 2013)

I always had stick me out. you want the dog to come up on the right side of the gun. What I mean on the right side of the gun is the side of the gun where your birds fall. You do not want your dog swinging behind the gunner and then go into the area of the fall. Do you ever do walking mark? Have one thrower walk to a spot throw. Stay at that location until the dog picks up the thrown bumper. The thrower then moves to another location. Another thing I have seen is the mark will be done at a long distance over a small rise. The bird thrower stands on the rise and throws the bumper or bird at a slight angle. The catch is that there is a pond behind the rise the the bumper falls into the water. You would be surprised how many dogs would run the long distance on land to the area of the fall and then would not make a very short water entry to pick up the bird. I was at a National AM in Bend OR . Many years ago and I saw allot of southern dogs fail to cross a small stream because it was very cold glacier run off water in the summer time. All the dogs trained down south hit the water and did not want to push on through the water. allot of these dogs were FC and AFC dogs


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 17, 2013)

Tag-a-long said:


> Ben I really enjoyed the latter parts of that Duck Dog Problem thread last week ... some of the most useful conversation we've had on here in ages.  I'd like to see more of that.
> 
> Help me out with your diagram.  I assume you run the marks sequentially 1-5.  It's a little hard to tell  from the photo which numbers go with which lines, the direction  of the throw and  where they land in relation to the other marks.  Could  you give a few more details to go with it? Or maybe draw it out on paper so we can visualize it better?



Knorman gave a really good description of how the set up was but if you would like I could try and draw it out for an areal view. 

my goal when I run this will be to get good lines and to push past old falls and guns since Belle has had problems with this before.  also nothing to long for her now around 125yards would be the longest distance. but later will start pushing her back to around 200 yards.


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## Joe Overby (Aug 17, 2013)

Bronco...might I ask why you shortened the distance to 125 yds?? The whole purpose of having a live gunner at the long bird is if the pup won't push to "pull" the dog to the long bird with a hup hup and another throw...just wondering..


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 18, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> Bronco...might I ask why you shortened the distance to 125 yds?? The whole purpose of having a live gunner at the long bird is if the pup won't push to "pull" the dog to the long bird with a hup hup and another throw...just wondering..



she is also having problems getting out to the longer distances, after about 100 yards she would break down and she wouldn't push farther even with a hup hup about the only time she would push farther is if another bird was pumped.  

but I could try stretching her out but my only problem is I don't have any expericanced throwers that can help me. all I have is an old set of dogtra electronics(one receiver and transmitter) and 2 wingers. not trying to make excuses just want to make marks as successful as I can and slowly start to stretch her out.


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## Joe Overby (Aug 18, 2013)

Take off your skirt...hook both wingers up to your electronic, display stickman, throw single...if pup even starts to slow down...even a little... throw the other mark..


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 18, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> Take off your skirt...hook both wingers up to your electronic, display stickman, throw single...if pup even starts to slow down...even a little... throw the other mark..



I would if the electroics would allow me to, these are old electronics that Marty is allowing me to borrow till I get my own. they are a little older than this from what I can tell.




only 2 things can go in this receiver the plug from the winger or the charger. if you know of a way to get 2 wingers to work with the one reciever I am all ears.

and I will admit that it is my fault that Belle hasn't seen a lot of long marks for the last 5 months. But I am trying to change that slowly. I will also admit im new at this because until about 2 months ago I thought a mark was just a bird that a dog saw go down (which it is) but I am learning there is a lot more to throwing marks than just throwing a bird all willy nilly.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 18, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> but I could try stretching her out but my only problem is I don't have any expericanced throwers that can help me.



my main thrower is a 9 year old girl. 

i put a 2 way radio in her hand and she has a bucket of bumpers. she knows as soon as she throws, to pick another one up and be ready for me to say "help her".


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## T Tolbert (Aug 18, 2013)

My main thrower is a 3 year old girl....





A bit unreliable


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## KNorman (Aug 18, 2013)

> and I will admit that it is my fault that Belle hasn't seen a lot of long marks for the last 5 months. But I am trying to change that slowly. I will also admit im new at this because until about 2 months ago I thought a mark was just a bird that a dog saw go down (which it is) but I am learning there is a lot more to throwing marks than just throwing a bird all willy nilly.



That's all right Benjamin. You're putting good effort into Belle. 

We're gonna slap you a little and push you, because we see promise here.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 18, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> my main thrower is a 9 year old girl.
> 
> i put a 2 way radio in her hand and she has a bucket of bumpers. she knows as soon as she throws, to pick another one up and be ready for me to say "help her".



Might can see if I can find a neighborhood kid that can throw for me for a little cash haven't thought about that in a while thanks for the reminder.



KNorman said:


> That's all right Benjamin. You're putting good effort into Belle.
> 
> We're gonna slap you a little and push you, because we see promise here.



I'm not worried about getting slapped around kinda used to it from work and Everyone thanks for the encouragement. But lets keep this going so others can try and learn as well. Because like myself we all started somewhere.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 18, 2013)

T Tolbert said:


> My main thrower is a 3 year old girl....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Shut up trappy.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 18, 2013)

heres a good teaching set up. both birds thrown right to left.
we ran it a number of different ways.

ran as singles. pick up short right hand bird. then pick up long left bird. you've given permission to fall off the hill to pick up first bird. then you need your dog to angle up the hill to the 2nd bird without falling back off the hill behind the gun in no mans land. then run the blind. 

a couple dogs we ran it as a double. short bird as go bird, and retired the long bird. this is a set up ive intro'd retired guns to my lab pup. 

then a couple we throw the double. picked up short bird. Retired the gun. No'd off the long bird, ran the blind, then picked up the long retired bird.


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## KNorman (Aug 18, 2013)

One of our water sets this morning. Only a double. 
Yes...we were aware of the wind on the long retired.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 18, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> heres a good teaching set up. both birds thrown right to left.
> we ran it a number of different ways.
> 
> ran as singles. pick up short right hand bird. then pick up long left bird. you've given permission to fall off the hill to pick up first bird. then you need your dog to angle up the hill to the 2nd bird without falling back off the hill behind the gun in no mans land. then run the blind.
> ...




im not seeing the hill you are talking about in the pic but what is the short bird teaching? im just wondering since the dog could fall off the hill or was that permission just allowed for the younger dogs? If I could see the hill on the long bird I most likely could see what you mean by the hill pushing the dog behind the gunner.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 18, 2013)

KNorman said:


> One of our water sets this morning. Only a double.
> Yes...we were aware of the wind on the long retired.



on the long retired would the dog need to get 4 dry or brush past the point?


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 18, 2013)

Bronco. the hill is pretty much gradually going up the whole way to that bird till about 50 yards from the gunner then it slants up/left pretty good. dog's eye view pic doesnt show it too well i guess. 
when i say permission on the short bird i mean you are allowing the dog to go down hill into a hole, so to speak. So you pick it up first and then when you go to pick up the longer bird if the dog has any natural fade off the hill then its in his mind, it was just ok for me to be down lower so "ill be alright"...young dogs do it all the time.


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## T Tolbert (Aug 18, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> Shut up trappy.



Sorry boss


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 18, 2013)

here's a water set up my buddy set up for us a few weeks ago. 

triple with flyer as go bird, double blind.


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## KNorman (Aug 18, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> on the long retired would the dog need to get 4 dry or brush past the point?



We kept them wet.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 19, 2013)

Turkey in your water set up what was the order of picking up the marks?

3,2,1 or 3,1,2 or did you let the dog kinda choose by watching where the dog was looking on the return trip with the bird?


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 19, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> Turkey in your water set up what was the order of picking up the marks?
> 
> 3,2,1 or 3,1,2 or did you let the dog kinda choose by watching where the dog was looking on the return trip with the bird?



obviously they were gonna want the flyer first. And we actually dont even shoot the live flyers. we shackled their feet and blindfold them so they start swimming when dog gets pretty close. But anyway. 

so they pick up flyer and most dogs wanted bird 1 next. 

then middle long bird last. the flyer fall area was way yonder a lot of suction for most dogs which caused many of them to beach on that point of land right behind where the flier was landing. then those dogs ended up running down that land getting back in the water behind the long gun. (just like we thought they would. the good dogs stayed out further and just crossed the tip of the point and ended up in good shape to pick up the long bird. 

so no we were not selecting the order for them.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 19, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> obviously they were gonna want the flyer first. And we actually dont even shoot the live flyers. we shackled their feet and blindfold them so they start swimming when dog gets pretty close. But anyway.
> 
> so they pick up flyer and most dogs wanted bird 1 next.
> 
> ...



gotcha. and since 2 and 3 looks like a hip pocket did you ever handle the dogs so they wouldnt go behind the long gunner? not sure of the level of the dogs you are running but most wondering for later on for myself.


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## Joe Overby (Aug 19, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> I would if the electroics would allow me to, these are old electronics that Marty is allowing me to borrow till I get my own. they are a little older than this from what I can tell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Should have an "L" and an "R" port....plug one winger into the "L" port....using an extension cable hook the other winger up to the "R" port..viola....2 marks with one electronic.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 19, 2013)

Joe I would do that today if I could but only has one output for the winger. Not like the TT or the new dogtra releases that has a output for a left and right.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 21, 2013)

ok bronco, since no one is playing, ill give you a couple more we've done recently.

this is a hunt test set up we did a couple weeks ago.
Triple with flyer blind up the middle.

long gun thrown first right to left up the hill.
gun 2 thrown almost straight back right to left over another piece of land splashing in swimby pond behind island.
Flyer thrown as go bird. 

most dogs wanted G2 after the flyer

then on long memory bird having to push through the flyer fall area, and then if they got to close to the land they were 5 feet from the flyer cage. and lots of dogs of course wanted to check all the snow goose decoys on hill side before pushing up the hill.

the blind was pretty straighforward for the older dogs. young dogs had trouble coming thru the flyer but once they did, it wasnt too bad.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 21, 2013)

triple on tech pond. 

bird one, thrown right to left. dog has to run passed piece of water, angle entry into the next piece, another rentry into a small channel. if the dog sees the channel picture they pick up the bird no problem.

bird 2 right to left dropped just outside a small corner of water. angle entry into swimby pond, reentry into big pond, swim passed point (stay in water) then get out at L at the end of pond. 

bird 3 thrown straight back to land on the island

blind straight up the gut passed the middle fall similar line as  middle but we were asking them to get on the point and back off.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 22, 2013)

Thanks Traxs and wish i had at least one place like with some techincal water that i could get to at least once a month.


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## KNorman (Aug 22, 2013)

Set from yesterday afternoon. This was thrown as singles due to limited help. 

Still, the dogs managed to botch at least one bird each.


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## KNorman (Aug 22, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> triple on tech pond.
> 
> bird one, thrown right to left. dog has to run passed piece of water, angle entry into the next piece, another rentry into a small channel. if the dog sees the channel picture they pick up the bird no problem.
> 
> ...



I like this set Trax.


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## KNorman (Aug 24, 2013)

Land Set from this morning. 

It went right hand 1 thrown r-l at 340 (retired), left hand 2 thrown r-l AB at 305 (retired),  then middle 3 thrown l-r at maybe 120. Wind was over our left shoulder making the retireds having to hold the line against the wind. 

There is very little cover, however, the dogs were also to angle several ditches en route to each bird (which you cant really see in the pic) as well as punch past the relatively easy go bird. 

Line mechanics were important to get them to swing through that nice inviting middle bird. 

The AA dogs did very well on this. We thought it might give them a little more trouble than it did. Nearly 100 AA and advanced judging assignments behind this but, I guess we laid an egg on this set. 

Just really became a concept triple.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 24, 2013)

Knorman we ran just about the same set up throwing in the same order this morning in some moderate cover changes and ditches of running water at shorter distances getting ready for hunt tests starting next weekend. All our dogs slammed it to, but im kind of glad. Looking for high confidence right now. My older boykin doesn't do well swinging big like that so i wanted to work on that today with a gun.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 24, 2013)

well learned something today with Belle. went and ran with a local pro and did a walk up and some walking singles (100-125 yards) all very close to one another where the dogs had to run right past the old fall to get to the bird. also ran a 100yard blind and that went pretty darn good for her first real cold blind after seeing birds drop. and a diversion 

but what learned was after all that was done. and all the other dogs ran we ran a double the go bird was the first mark of the walking singles and the memory was being influenced by the blind that we ran earlier. well  she saw the memory bird go down I told her to heel and swing with me and she jumped 4ft away from me (didn't break). now granted the swing was pretty big almost 180 degrees but still have something to work on so she doesn't get far out in front of the gun at a test and have to try and re heel her and have the chance of a break.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 25, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> well learned something today with Belle. went and ran with a local pro and did a walk up and some walking singles (100-125 yards) all very close to one another where the dogs had to run right past the old fall to get to the bird. also ran a 100yard blind and that went pretty darn good for her first real cold blind after seeing birds drop. and a diversion
> 
> but what learned was after all that was done. and all the other dogs ran we ran a double the go bird was the first mark of the walking singles and the memory was being influenced by the blind that we ran earlier. well  she saw the memory bird go down I told her to heel and swing with me and she jumped 4ft away from me (didn't break). now granted the swing was pretty big almost 180 degrees but still have something to work on so she doesn't get far out in front of the gun at a test and have to try and re heel her and have the chance of a break.



my limited knowledge and experience with just a handful of dogs and watching joe with 15 per week, Ill respond like this-
young dogs- keep the blinds away from the marks. Tough to do sometimes due to grounds but especially her FIRST cold blinds. Hunt test guys and FT guys differ on this a little ive seen. A lot of HT guys seeking finished titles early (before 2) start running blinds tight with the guns. Ive heard and talked to FT guys that wont run a blind adjacent to a mark till way later in life. 

My 15 month old black pup is running blinds now through marks on big set ups but she learned and matured a good bit faster than a lot of them. And id like to have her finished title in the spring so shes learning to handle through it now. 
but my young boykin- she doesnt see a blind around marks (and preferably not in the same field). but if the same field i run her blinds before i throw the first bird for her.
my older (2.5 year old boykin gets them AA style. 
Just know the dog. 

now with the healing/swinging with you and moving at the line stuff. BOY what a battle ive had with my older boykin. And they are battles i DO NOT have with my lab pup. Because of initial standards with her from the get go. She's NOT ALLOWED to pick her butt off the ground under any circumstances and guess what she can still see marks that are nearly 180 degrees apart on multiples. We threw an indented triple yesterday with the right and left marks nearly 180 degrees apart. Thrown in order Right, Left, Middle. So there was a huge swing from right to left. Never picked her butt off ground just moved her head to watch bird. Very little movement with me and the gun. i was on a bucket so it wasnt like she could move with my hips. 

Lots and lots of OB and bucket drills early on. 

OH HOW I WISH I HAD THOSE SAME STANDARDS FOR MY OLDER BOYKIN. We've failed finished tests solely because of line manners and moving out to far and getting out of position.  

Joe Overby would say- "you better get that under control..." well its bit me in the butt on more than one occasion. 

i made the decision early on with this last pup- She'll KNOW what SIT means.


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## KNorman (Aug 25, 2013)

> Hunt test guys and FT guys differ on this a little ive seen. A lot of HT guys seeking finished titles early (before 2) start running blinds tight with the guns. Ive heard and talked to FT guys that wont run a blind adjacent to a mark till way later in life.



Interesting observation. 

I've never thought of it that way, but, yes...I want precise casts before I put a trial dog in a position to fail. 

I think it's the distances involved. Distance erodes control, so we (meaning FT'ers) tend to gradually tighten our blinds to marks and poison. 

I know this is going to sound incredibly arrogant (and I don't mean it to), but this morning when we pulled into our grounds, we ran into some of our HT friends who were just setting up a land triple. Of course, we chatted and one of the guys asked us what we thought of their set. Which was a simple three around a tree. We were like...well, move this bird here...put a blind there...etc. 

None of the birds we suggested were over 150 yards, but "our" set got answers. They were kinda bummed out that they had to handle on multiple marks, but hey...we ARE training here right? 

If you're not handling occasionally, you either have a super dog or your sets are too easy. ;-)


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## KNorman (Aug 25, 2013)

Speaking of handling.....had to handle on the long retired. My dog wanted to cheat bigger than Dallas....so...stop. Correction (nick nick nick) on a come in whistle. Then cast into the water (which you can't really see) 

Krazy....this is a really hard retired hip pocket, delayed triple.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 25, 2013)

KNorman said:


> Interesting observation.
> 
> I've never thought of it that way, but, yes...I want precise casts before I put a trial dog in a position to fail.
> 
> ...



Oh I agree. No offense taken.  We are predominantly hunt testers in our group but with a couple FT guys mixed in. 90% of our training/setups were designed from a FT mindset.  Then For a week or so before hunt test we throw typical hunt test set ups to get in the groove again.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 25, 2013)

I meant to say the blind was outside of the marks by a pretty good distance (about 70 degrees). when I was lining her up she looked over at the old fall noed her off the mark she looked pretty much at the blind pole so the she GOOOOOOD back. started to go a little left so whistle right over (got her on the line) right hand back and got there and just as I blew the sit whistle she winded the blind and picked it up so only one whistle refusal so was happy with that. and talking to marty griner (the pro I worked with) he told me if he was judging seasoned he would have not have marked down to hard on the whistle refusal because I was trying to challenge the blind and not let the dog stumble on to the blind but still got to get the whistles refusals down.

and I work on the bucket in the back yard a pretty good bit about 2-3 times a week for the last month or so and she is does really well with it and keeps her butt on the ground (just picks it up enough to move and make a full 360) but might need to start throwing a few hand thrown marks to get her to swing with me and get a little excitement and try and get a few corrections.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 25, 2013)

here is the set up I ran Thursday and would have taken a pic from the line but forgot to. it was  run as singles and to run through the fall which she did really well. the first mark was in shorter cover but thick cover so when the bird hit the ground it got covered up a little and the second mark was high but landing in the edge of the water did it just to have the splash and help her out a little . but just that one pond has lots of marks I can run that can cover quite a few concepts.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 25, 2013)

moved some hay bales around and put together a couple sets...
taught each set as singles. then threw as doubles.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 26, 2013)

KNorman said:


> Speaking of handling.....had to handle on the long retired. My dog wanted to cheat bigger than Dallas....so...stop. Correction (nick nick nick) on a come in whistle. Then cast into the water (which you can't really see)
> 
> Krazy....this is a really hard retired hip pocket, delayed triple.



when you say delayed triple you mean watch 1&2 go down pick up 2 then throw 3 pick up 3 then pick up 1?


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 26, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> when you say delayed triple you mean watch 1&2 go down pick up 2 then throw 3 pick up 3 then pick up 1?



thats how we define it. Comes back with go bird. We keep bird in mouth, launch bird 3. pick it up then pick up first bird down.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 26, 2013)

question for everyone. 

when running these more advanced concepts around water does it help younger dogs to have the marks hit water not in a marking stand point but in running a straighter inital line? wondering because i would like to try and start running some of these type concepts as singles and our handleing is not where i am comfortable to handle on marks on the way to the mark because of a bad initial line. dont mind handleing on the way back to teach the line.

or do i need to wait on these type concepts until i am done with de cheating?


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 26, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> or do i need to wait on these type concepts until i am done with de cheating?



I would say so, because at that point you should be confident in your dogs ability to handle better, and the ability to correct for a concept that you have already taught through a thorough decheating program. 

in other words if i havent properly decheated my dog i would not want to throw real cheaty marks and complicated stuff and hold them accountable (via handling them) to something they don't understand.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 26, 2013)

thanks traxs. it is getting harder everyday to not want to move faster because i think i can just see the finish line and want to get there so bad but the more i learn the more i realize there is alot more to accomplish before we can get there.


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## KNorman (Aug 27, 2013)

There is no finish line.


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## king killer delete (Aug 27, 2013)

*The cold hard truth*



KNorman said:


> There is no finish line.



Dead on.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 27, 2013)

Well today did not go even close to planned had some new help with throwing birds (mostly release the winger and help if needed) he was new at this so couldn't get mad because he was helping but she had some problems on the longer guns it wasn't pushing past the short guns but a field that looks featureless to me is not as featureless when she runs.
but will be running this again Thursday but in the opposite direction (if the wind is in the right direction)

but here is the set up.


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## KNorman (Aug 27, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> Well today did not go even close to planned had some new help with throwing birds (mostly release the winger and help if needed) he was new at this so couldn't get mad because he was helping but she had some problems on the longer guns it wasn't pushing past the short guns but a field that looks featureless to me is not as featureless when she runs.
> but will be running this again Thursday but in the opposite direction (if the wind is in the right direction)
> 
> but here is the set up.



Ben, you have to build into complex ABCD's. don't throw those short guns quite yet. And loosen them up. She will get used to looking long past short guns, then you can start to mix in checks with long guns present. 

Baby steps. Still....I like your effort.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 28, 2013)

thanks for the words of encouragement knorman but i think im learning it is harder to teach marking concepts when you train by yourself, with inexperianced help or not having enough equipment (electronics with sound) than it is to run drills.

so question so the next time i run this could i use 3 stickmen to get the same effect (pushing past a gun) and get the stickmen spread out to help her out?


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 28, 2013)

You can teach it with just 2. 

Mr. Bruce Overby comes over and we frequently do days where we just use 2 guns and move them around the field teaching inline concepts and/or hip pockets. 

Like Mr. Norman said to you. Spread them out a little. Just throw the long bird and let your dog see its ok to go past that gun and pick up the long bird. 
Then start to add in the short bird. Do all as singles. 

Move around the field thus not throwing the same marks but teaching the same concept.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 28, 2013)

anouther thought just struck me but how much do shadows affect dogs and marking? like yesterday we had the sun at our backs with a lot of trees so alot of shadows but the marks where out in a well light area.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 28, 2013)

i dont mind the shadows as long as the bird is being thrown in the light.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 29, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> i dont mind the shadows as long as the bird is being thrown in the light.



thats what i thought as well but wanted to make sure that i wasnt doing something wrong or that would could cause problems down the road.


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## krazybronco2 (Aug 31, 2013)

todays set up was a mini version of the ABCD drill jut with 3 stickmen the 2 long gunners were at 115-120yrds (walked not ranged) and the short gunner was around 75yrds she stepped on both marks and carried great lines to both of them also I was slower at the line on releasing her (4 count in my head) also the big white bumpers helped I think a lot as well.


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## KNorman (Sep 2, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> todays set up was a mini version of the ABCD drill jut with 3 stickmen the 2 long gunners were at 115-120yrds (walked not ranged) and the short gunner was around 75yrds she stepped on both marks and carried great lines to both of them also I was slower at the line on releasing her (4 count in my head) also the big white bumpers helped I think a lot as well.



Very nice! Slow your cadence and let the dog focus. 

Nice job on realizing you are rushing it.


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## KNorman (Sep 2, 2013)

An All Age set from this morning.  

Give them land on the go....then the cheat on Ret2...then the big water with an in and out on Ret 1. 

Marks are described in order thrown.  To give scale....the long retired was 350.


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## krazybronco2 (Sep 27, 2013)

did something today that was fun for the dogs and handlers. 

need 3 people and 3 dogs and two bumpers each get in a triangle as big as you want. and each person throws a bumper one other persons dog. dogs got to watch a lot of bumpers and work on honoring. you can stay in the same spot or rotate around so the dogs see different marks. any distances you want. 

not exactly marking concept but was fun.


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