# Are Catholics Christians?



## Pale Blue Dun (Dec 26, 2006)

I have heard some radio programs that speak of "Christians and Catholics" like they are two seperate groups. It has always been my understanding that if you are a follower of Christ then you are a Christian. As far as I can tell Catholics are followers of Christ. 

What's the deal?

Dan


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## Joe Moran (Dec 26, 2006)

Anyone who believes that Christ died & rose again, to save us from our sins, is a Christian.


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## blindhog (Dec 26, 2006)

That is to say Jesus + nothing= salvation

If they teach Jesus + something=false lie


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## StriperAddict (Dec 26, 2006)

A life led by the Spirit of God is typically contrary to "religion", meaning that some "churches" do a dis-service to the Lord by NOT staying in the scriptures and proclaiming the Lordship of Christ.  Or if they do, they "add" to it with human commands that God never intended (example, not eating meat, forbidding to marry, etc.  I don't have the actual verses in front of me now).

That said, many churches, regardles of 'denominational' titles, are strong in the Spirit of Christ.  Of course there are Cathloic churches that are more about keeping up with religious duty than becoming holy, which our Lord commands, and is only possible by the Holy Spirit, not by any sacrement from any religious institution.  

Those churches that build up your faith in Jesus alone as your Savior and Lord are where you want to be.


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## THREEJAYS (Dec 26, 2006)

If you have accepted Christ as your savior and follow his commands you are a Christian , it doesn't matter who you are or what any one says.


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 26, 2006)

Pale Blue Dun said:


> It has always been my understanding that if you are a follower of Christ then you are a Christian.
> Dan




Christ said:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 
*And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. *

So the answer is NO.....Not Everyone who says they believe in Christ and follow him are "Christians" or "Saved".


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## blindhog (Dec 26, 2006)

Oh no...Tn Extreme....aren't you being too judgemental?  After all, all the popular teachers are saying there are people in all religions that believe in Christ!

Just kidding ya brother!


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## Joe Moran (Dec 27, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> Christ said:
> Matthew 7:21-23
> Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
> Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
> ...


 
Yourself included?

Maybe I'm going to the wrong church then .
It was my understanding, that if I confessed that Jesus is my savior, & opened my heart to him, that I was saved.


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## blindhog (Dec 27, 2006)

Don't forget the repentance factor, cuz you is a sinner.


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## Joe Moran (Dec 27, 2006)

blindhog said:


> Don't forget the repentance factor, cuz you is a sinner.


 
Good point...we all are.


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## toddboucher (Dec 27, 2006)

I don't know everything about the cathloic church even thou I used to be one. The word say everyone who calls on the name of the lord shall be saved. We all know there are Baptist's who are not saved and are not Christians. That being said, Catholics have a lot of form and rules making it hard for them to truly call on the name of Jesus for salvation. They are taught their deed are making them right with the father. I know there are a lot of born again catholics on this site so I feel we could all learn more from hearing from them. After I got born again I need to learn more about grace.


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## PJason (Dec 27, 2006)

toddboucher said:


> I don't know everything about the cathloic church even thou I used to be one. The word say everyone who calls on the name of the lord shall be saved. We all know there are Baptist's who are not saved and are not Christians. That being said, Catholics have a lot of form and rules making it hard for them to truly call on the name of Jesus for salvation. They are taught their deed are making them right with the father. I know there are a lot of born again catholics on this site so I feel we could all learn more from hearing from them. After I got born again I need to learn more about grace.




“There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing.”


Bishop Fulton Sheen


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## Arrowslinger (Dec 27, 2006)

Anagama said:


> “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing.”
> 
> 
> Bishop Fulton Sheen



Good Quote, I see this alot.


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## newmoon (Dec 27, 2006)

Grace is the anwser, Ephesians 2;8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith and not of yourselfs it is the gift of GOD.  Not of works lest anyman should boast. 1 John 2;1 My little Children these things I write unto you that ye sin not. And if any man sin we have an advocate with the father JESUS CHRIST the righteous. A man can not forgive sin nor can praying to to the Mother of Christ get you anywhere. I relize there are people of this faith that are born again but many more that have no clue, just as in other faiths. This all comes from listening to man and not reading  the Living word of GOD for themselfs.    newmoon


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## Arrowslinger (Dec 27, 2006)

newmoon said:


> Grace is the anwser, Ephesians 2;8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith and not of yourselfs it is the gift of GOD.  Not of works lest anyman should boast. 1 John 2;1 My little Children these things I write unto you that ye sin not. And if any man sin we have an advocate with the father JESUS CHRIST the righteous. A man can not forgive sin nor can praying to to the Mother of Christ get you anywhere. I relize there are people of this faith that are born again but many more that have no clue, just as in other faiths. This all comes from listening to man and not reading  the Living word of GOD for themselfs.    newmoon


Post deleted for personal attack...


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## 60Grit (Dec 27, 2006)

Wow, did I step right into a Jehovah's Witness blog or what???

OK, so let me get this straight, unless I believe TN Extremes version of what his interpretation of what specific (removed from their context) scriptures are, I am not going to heaven as a Christian. Just those that belong to his church cult and believe as he does, no if's ands or buts.

Kind of sounds like religious fanatacism, extremism or a cult.

Sorry, but I have lot's of friends of all denominations that all understand the teachings of Jesus', not to be confused with selective non-relational scripture, and what and how he taught to live your life. Jesus was also very specific in speech as well as example on how we are to relate to our fellow man.

Pretty much I have concluded that if Heaven is going to be were you fanatics end up, then I choose to be with all of the other heathens that call themselves Christians, but don't cut the mustard in your eyes.


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## HuntDawg (Dec 27, 2006)

I am not Catholic, but for anyone that is of any prodestant denomination says that a Catholic is not a Christian, what could they be thinking?  Are not all of our denominations basically a "break off" from the original Catholic Church?  How could our denominations be a break off of an original denomination and call that original denomination wrong?  I understand the whole Pope deal and most of the other parts of Catholic Church that most other denominations do not agree with, but wasn't the Catholic Church the original Christian Church?  If so,  I understand we can disagree, but to judge their beliefs, does not seem rational, since prodestants carry the same core beliefs, minus more of the traditional church doctrine and traditions that the Catholic Church practices.

Please help me understand this premis.  I always was taught in History, that the Catholic Church was the first Christian Church.  Was it not?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 27, 2006)

Anagama said:


> “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing.”
> 
> 
> Bishop Fulton Sheen




Bingo! Bingo! Bingo! This catholic has attended Pentacostal Church, Baptish Chruch, Wesleyan Chruch (Methodist), Anglican Church, New Life Chruch  so that when I speak of these christians it is more than hearsay, it is from experience and serious study and talking with these folks.

And I can go on a limb that when the spirit moves it moves everywere in some fashion according to the gifts of a chruch.

In the past being catholic or protestant were political or social stations. Hate from the past still finds it way to the present... it is much easier to say catholics and christians for some... In "faith" there is a loving effort some just don't care for.


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## PWalls (Dec 27, 2006)

There will be Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc in Heaven. There will also be Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc in Hades.

Personal faith and trust in Jesus Christ and His salvation and a repentent heart is what it takes to get to Heaven. Period.

It is my opinion that the word "Christian" applies to anyone who sincerely calls upon the name of Christ for salvation. Other names (Catholic, Baptist, Methodist) are sometimes hindrances and sometimes help in realizing that goal. I am a "Christian" first that chooses to attend a Southern Baptist church because it falls more in line of where I think the Bible leads.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 27, 2006)

PWalls said:


> There will be Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc in Heaven. There will also be Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc in Hades.
> 
> Personal faith and trust in Jesus Christ and His salvation and a repentent heart is what it takes to get to Heaven. Period.
> 
> It is my opinion that the word "Christian" applies to anyone who sincerely calls upon the name of Christ for salvation. Other names (Catholic, Baptist, Methodist) are sometimes hindrances and sometimes help in realizing that goal. I am a "Christian" first that chooses to attend a Southern Baptist church because it falls more in line of where I think the Bible leads.




Thank you for this good post.  No further add from here...


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 27, 2006)

Scooter,

I merely posted what the Bible says...

And it wasnt pointed at a Catholic..it wa sponted at all of us.

there will be MANY MANY people who were uopstandign members of their church and done many great works and services in Christ's name who wont truly be saved.

Striaght Bible my friend...Straight Bible.


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 27, 2006)

HuntDawg said:


> Are not all of our denominations basically a "break off" from the original Catholic Church?




ABSOLUTELY NOT.  There were MANY Christians worshipping grouops LONG before the RCC was established by Constantine.

When Constantine created the RCC he sought these people out and had them killed.


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## addictedtodeer (Dec 27, 2006)

The power of the Roman church and specifically the bishop (who we now call the Pope) was already established before Constantine.
Before Constantine there were 5 major churches that the universal church looked to for leadership: Antioch; Rome; Jerusalem; Alexandria; and Ephesus (I believe, sorry don't have my church history books with me). Rome was seen as the first among equals of these 5 churches and their Bishops with Rome gaining power.

Protestant denominations come from the Reformation (beginning with John Huss).  Protestant= protesting.
Protestant churches were protesting the Roman clergy specifically the Pope. Its very sad that most Protestant churches have no clue why they are Protestant.  Check out the 5 solas these are what seperated the Protestant churches from the RCC. Most Protestant churches originally divided over minor doctrinal disagreements, though many today would not agree with their founders.

There were other churches before the Reformation, check out the Waldensians, the orthodox (Greek, Eastern, Russian, and possibly others), and Coptic. In the West the RCC was predominant until the reformation;however, English and Irish RCC were always frustrating the Roman clergy cause they wanted to follow the Bible more than the Pope.


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## newmoon (Dec 27, 2006)

I am sorry I jumped in on the thread, Being a jackleg I should have just passed it by but Bible is Bible and fellows I stand on the Word of God. I forgot there were so many that wont accept it. But they will give anwser for that one day I wont . I will leave this alone I meant no offence but stand by what I said.                          newmoon


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## NoOne (Dec 27, 2006)

newmoon said:


> I am sorry I jumped in on the thread, Being a jackleg I should have just passed it by but Bible is Bible and fellows I stand on the Word of God. I forgot there were so many that wont accept it. But they will give anwser for that one day I wont . I will leave this alone I meant no offence but stand by what I said.                          newmoon




There is no reason to apolgize for the Truth. The Truth is the Truth no matter how much the world hates it or despises it.


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 27, 2006)

addictedtodeer said:


> The power of the Roman church and specifically the bishop (who we now call the Pope) was already established before Constantine.


Not true at all...There was no such thing as a pope before roughly 300A.D.

The Bible knows nothing of a Pope, Cardinals, etc, etc.


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 27, 2006)

fishing technician said:


> There is no reason to apolgize for the Truth. The Truth is the Truth no matter how much the world hates it or despises it.



FT, New Moon....better be careful with that kind of "hate speech"


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## THREEJAYS (Dec 27, 2006)

fishing technician said:


> There is no reason to apolgize for the Truth. The Truth is the Truth no matter how much the world hates it or despises it.



Amen. And there is no where else to stand than on the Word of God


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## HuntinTom (Dec 27, 2006)

A Note to Everybody
Continue the debate, discussion and study of the topic at hand, but if this continues to have the personal barbs thrown, it's gonna' get locked down tight - We've had this type thing happen in the past, and it seems that about every other thread the past couple of weeks has gone in that directon as well.  We're not going down that road again.  If ANY OF YOU have personal jabs to throw at another poster, take it to PMs... And this is not up for discussion or debate...


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## PWalls (Dec 28, 2006)

HuntinTom said:


> A Note to Everybody
> Continue the debate, discussion and study of the topic at hand, but if this continues to have the personal barbs thrown, it's gonna' get locked down tight - We've had this type thing happen in the past, and it seems that about every other thread the past couple of weeks has gone in that directon as well.  We're not going down that road again.  If ANY OF YOU have personal jabs to throw at another poster, take it to PMs... And this is not up for discussion or debate...



Ya'll see that face and that gun? Had best listen to the man.

Thanks HT. Seems like there are certain subjects that gets everybody's goat around here and quickly lead down a bad road.


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## MudDucker (Dec 28, 2006)

There is NO biblical doctrine to establish the leadership of the Catholic Church (Pope and Bishops).  The Catholic Church of the dark ages caused the split by preaching to its members that they could BUY forgiveness for their sins by making payments to the Church.  This is the exact opposite of the teaching of the Bible which states forgiveness of sin is by grace alone.  The Catholic Church has changed much since the dark days, but it still holds to doctrine that is man based and not Biblical.  Having said this, being a Catholic does not mean that you are not also a Christian.


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## PWalls (Dec 28, 2006)

MudDucker said:


> Having said this, being a Catholic does not mean that you are not also a Christian.




And it seems a lot of people have a hard time believing this statement.


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## addictedtodeer (Dec 28, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> Not true at all...There was no such thing as a pope before roughly 300A.D.
> 
> The Bible knows nothing of a Pope, Cardinals, etc, etc.



Actually the bishops rise to power began with the "Latin Fathers" specifically Irenaeus (d. c. 200); Tertullian (c. 155-c. 220); Hippolytus (c. 170-235)
Constantine and his legalization of Christianity occurred in 313 AD. It definitely hastened the process.

As protestants we have to realize it was a gradual (however, unfortunate) move towards the supremacy of one Church leader.
I agree that the Bible disagrees with the rise of bishops, Cardinals, etc. Thank-goodness for the reformation:
Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone);  Solus Christus (Christ alone); Sola Gratia (Grace alone); Sola Fide (faith alone); Soli Deo Gloria (For God's glory alone)
Great link about the 5 Solas.
As to the actual topic: Salvation is found through faith in Christ alone. Nothing and no-one else is needed.

_1 Timothy 2: 3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
Hebrews 7:23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in off ice, 24but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.25Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost[a] those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them._

If Christ has saved you, you are saved no matter what denomination you are in;however, remember it is Christ and Christ alone.
John 6:35 _Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."_
Awesome chapter, just don't want to take up the space to quote it all.


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## toddboucher (Dec 28, 2006)

HuntDawg said:


> I am not Catholic, but for anyone that is of any prodestant denomination says that a Catholic is not a Christian, what could they be thinking?  Are not all of our denominations basically a "break off" from the original Catholic Church?  How could our denominations be a break off of an original denomination and call that original denomination wrong?  I understand the whole Pope deal and most of the other parts of Catholic Church that most other denominations do not agree with, but wasn't the Catholic Church the original Christian Church?  If so,  I understand we can disagree, but to judge their beliefs, does not seem rational, since prodestants carry the same core beliefs, minus more of the traditional church doctrine and traditions that the Catholic Church practices.
> 
> Please help me understand this premis.  I always was taught in History, that the Catholic Church was the first Christian Church.  Was it not?




No not even close, during Luther's time, many a great man lost his life to the rulers of the Catholic Church. These man choose to die if need be, all for the truth. 
Somewhere on my computer I have a paper of how we got the english bible and the brave people who laid down their life for it. When I find it, I'll post it.

Watch the movie Luther


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## Hawkeye (Dec 28, 2006)

Joe Moran said:


> Anyone who believes that Christ died & rose again, to save us from our sins, is a Christian.



Well Satan Believes that ,doesn't he ?


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## PWalls (Dec 28, 2006)

Hawkeye said:


> Well Satan Believes that ,doesn't he ?



Does he? Satan and demons know there is a God and Jesus, but they don't "believe" on Jesus for salvation, they don't have faith. Huge difference.


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 28, 2006)

MudDucker said:


> being a Catholic does not mean that you are not also a Christian.



Maybe not....but if that person has followed the steps to salvation as taught by the RCC.. i.e.; sprinking as a infant ,Confirmation, attending mass, and believing that partaking of the eucharist ....then no ....they arent Christians according to the Bible and Christ's teachings.

I know several people who come under conviction and were saved while participating in the Catholic church....My wife being one of them....But everyone I have met come out of the RCC when they began studying the Bible in earnest.


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## Pale Blue Dun (Dec 28, 2006)

MudDucker said:


> There is NO biblical doctrine to establish the leadership of the Catholic Church (Pope and Bishops).  The Catholic Church of the dark ages caused the split by preaching to its members that they could BUY forgiveness for their sins by making payments to the Church.  This is the exact opposite of the teaching of the Bible which states forgiveness of sin is by grace alone.  The Catholic Church has changed much since the dark days, but it still holds to doctrine that is man based and not Biblical.  Having said this, being a Catholic does not mean that you are not also a Christian.




Ponder this a little while:

It's my understanding that there was a Catholic Church before there was a Bible. Therefore, it can't be "Bible Based" if there was no Bible to base it on. So they used traditions to celebrate Christ instead of teachings that were not really around.  The printing press was invented about 1400 years AFTER the start of the Catholic Church so there was no Bible to refer to. That's a dang long time! So using some of the logic I have read here that means nobody was saved until the printing press was invented? Makes no sense to me. I have read somewhere that the Bible took about 400 years to write then what about the 400 years between Jesus' death and the Bible? See where I am headed here?

Now what about that?

Dan


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## Hawkeye (Dec 28, 2006)

PWalls said:


> Does he? Satan and demons know there is a God and Jesus, but they don't "believe" on Jesus for salvation, they don't have faith. Huge difference.



19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:19;20


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## StriperAddict (Dec 28, 2006)

*Getting back to the main point...*

I would caution anyone who adds to the cannon of scripture, Cathloics or not, and claim there is God given inspiration in such books as the Apocrypha:

Errors in the Apocrypha

The books of the Apocrypha abound in doctrinal, ethical, and historical errors. For instance, Tobit claims to have been alive when Jeroboam revolted (931 B.C.) and when Assyria conquered Israel (722 B.C.), despite the fact that his lifespan was only a total of 158 years (Tobit 1:3-5; 14:11)! Judith mistakenly identifies Nebuchadnezzar as king of the Assyrians (1:1, 7). Tobit endorses the superstitious use of fish liver to ward off demons (6: 6,7)! 

The theological errors are equally significant. Wisdom of Solomon teaches the creation of the world from pre-existent matter (7:17). II Maccabees teaches prayers for the dead (12:45-46), and Tobit teaches salvation by the good work of almsgiving (12:9) -- quite contrary to inspired Scripture (such as John 1:3; II Samuel 12:19; Hebrews 9:27; Romans 4:5; Galatians 3:11).

More on this subject can be read here:

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/apocrypha.html


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## StriperAddict (Dec 28, 2006)

From the same site I posted, this is some encouragement on the cannon of Scripture:

Concerning a measure or standard used to determine which books should be classified as Scripture, a key verse to understanding the process and purpose and perhaps timing of the giving of Scripture is Jude 3, which states that a Christian's faith "was once for all delivered to the saints." Since our faith is defined by Scripture, Jude is essentially saying that Scripture was given once, for the benefit of all Christians. Isn't it wonderful to know that there are no hidden or lost manuscripts yet to be found, there are no secret books only familiar to a select few, there are no people alive who have special revelation requiring us to trek up a Himalayan mountain in order to be enlightened?!! We can be confident that God has not left us without a witness. The same supernatural power God used to produce His word has also been used to preserve it.

Psalm 119:160 states that the entirety of God's word is truth. Starting with that premise, we can compare writings outside the accepted canon of Scripture to see if they meet the test. As an example, the Bible claims that Jesus Christ is God (Isaiah 9:6-7; Matthew 1:22-23; John 1:1, 2, 14; 20:28; Acts 16:31, 34; Philippians 2:5-6; Colossians 2:9; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8; 2 Peter 1:1). Yet many extra-biblical texts, imagining to be Scripture, argue that Jesus is not God. When clear contradictions exist, the established Bible is to be trusted, leaving the others outside the sphere of Scripture.


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## MudDucker (Dec 28, 2006)

Pale Blue Dun said:


> Ponder this a little while:
> 
> It's my understanding that there was a Catholic Church before there was a Bible. Therefore, it can't be "Bible Based" if there was no Bible to base it on. So they used traditions to celebrate Christ instead of teachings that were not really around.  The printing press was invented about 1400 years AFTER the start of the Catholic Church so there was no Bible to refer to. That's a dang long time! So using some of the logic I have read here that means nobody was saved until the printing press was invented? Makes no sense to me. I have read somewhere that the Bible took about 400 years to write then what about the 400 years between Jesus' death and the Bible? See where I am headed here?
> 
> ...



That is a bit simplified.  Actually there was a Bible before the Catholic Church, an oral Bible.  Additionally Mark, Luke, John and Acts were known to have been in writing long before the Catholic Church or the Gutenburg Bible to which you refer.  These were the writings the early Church relied upon.  The other chapters of the Bible have also been found in very ancient writings.  Acts and Corinthians [SIZE=-1][/SIZE]were both written by Paul, who although cannonized by the Catholic Church was never a Catholic and never a member of the Catholic Church.


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## Joe Moran (Dec 28, 2006)

There are many here that think, that if you are not a Baptist, then you won't go to Heaven as well. 

As I said previously, if you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord & Savior, you are a Christian & are saved.

That's my belief anyway. Of course, many of the fire & brimstone "experts" here will tell you different.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 29, 2006)

Joe and Mud are right. It's the basics of the faith, and that the true church of Jesus Christ isn't an institution by man, but of God.  If by faith in Christ you are dead to self and alive in Him by His Spirit, you are part of His church, the body of Christ.


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## PWalls (Dec 29, 2006)

Hawkeye said:


> 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
> 
> 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
> James 2:19;20




So, what's your point?

Devils believe there is one God. I agree wholeheartedly. However, they don't trust Him for Salvation or have that faith.

Faith without works is dead? I agree wholeheartedly again. A person who accepts Christ into his heart and follow the guidance/conviction of the Holy Spirit will be "motivated" to do the good works. However, the good works have nothing to do with salvation (other than an evidence of).


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 29, 2006)

Joe Moran said:


> There are many here that think, that if you are not a Baptist, then you won't go to Heaven as well.
> 
> .




Wow...I have been on this forum for MONTHS..Actually years under another name that I lsot the passowrd to.....

And i have NEVER seen anyone say what you said above Joe....NEVER.

Cimpar ANY major Christian churches teachings and compare it to the Bible..if they teach contrary to what Christ said about Salvation then it is a false teahing and we are tld to shun it....

That should make it pretty simple.

~~~~NOTICE~~~~
I did not mention any name of ANY churches.


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## redwards (Dec 29, 2006)

Pale Blue Dun said:


> Ponder this a little while:
> 
> It's my understanding that there was a Catholic Church before there was a Bible....


Can you share on here the source of your understanding?

What you indicate may in fact be correct about the "Bible" as we know it, but as Jesus himself indicates, God's written Word certainly existed before any sectarian church was founded.
And it is my belief that the true message of God's written Word has and will remain constant and unchanging through the ages of time.
(Edited to add) It is also encumbent upon us as Christians (not as Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Christian Church, Church of Christ, Church of God, etc., etc.) to remain faithful and true to Him who has delivered us from eternal separation from God.


> Luke 24:44-49 (HCSB)
> *44* Then He told them, â€œThese are My words that I spoke to you while I was still with youâ€”that everything *written* about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms must be fulfilled.â€�
> *45* Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.
> *46* He also said to them, â€œThis is what is *written*:[11] Other mss add _and thus it was necessary that_ the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead the third day,
> ...


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## Pale Blue Dun (Dec 29, 2006)

Let me expand on what I was trying to say. 

BEFORE Bibles were getting dusty on coffee tables and dry rotting on dashes of cars. I meant before they were sold at Lifeway and given out by Gideons. I meant before everyone had access to the book form of the Holy Scriptures. Before Libraries were in every city. When monks hand wrote Bibles and if you had any books at all you were a noble or a king.

Before that you had traditions and an oral history. Now, get 50 people in a room and whisper something in someone's ear. Pass it along and when it gets to the 50th person, you have another story alltogether. Traditions were part of the early Christian church long before there was a written, publicly dispersed written Bible. These tradition were intertwined with traditions from other religions. Before there were Catholics and Baptists. 

I'm just asking you to open your mind up about a few things. There wasn't always a KJV on every coffee table.

Dan


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## NoOne (Jan 6, 2007)

MudDucker said:


> That is a bit simplified.  Actually there was a Bible before the Catholic Church, an oral Bible.  Additionally Mark, Luke, John and Acts were known to have been in writing long before the Catholic Church or the Gutenburg Bible to which you refer.  These were the writings the early Church relied upon.  The other chapters of the Bible have also been found in very ancient writings.  Acts and Corinthians [SIZE=-1][/SIZE]were both written by Paul, who although cannonized by the Catholic Church was never a Catholic and never a member of the Catholic Church.



Actually where the great expositions of Paul came from are the old testament. In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Paul tells the gospel of salvation and he said it was according to the scriptures. These scriptures he is referring to are the old testament scriptures since there were no new testament scriptures at that time and most of the new testament was written by him. The key scriptures that he used are from Leviticus16, Exodus 12, Genesis 22, Psalms 22, Isaiah 53, just to name a few. The Lord Jesus taught Paul this himself. "But I certify you brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ, Galation 1:11,12. And if you go to Luke 24 starting in verse13 thru 27, you can read of the account of the 2 men on the road to Emmaus and how they met Jesus on the road " but they did not recognize him"; and Jesus traveled with them down the road and they told  Jesus of all the things which had happened, How Jesus of Nazareth had been crucified and 3 days had past and now his body was missing, and that women of their company had seen a vision of angels  which had  said that Jesus was alive. Then Jesus said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and ALL the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


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## 60Grit (Jan 6, 2007)

I guess if you're Catholic, that question lies between you and God.

No man has the right or place to make that judgement.


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## Tn_Extreme (Jan 6, 2007)

scooter1 said:


> No man has the right or place to make that judgement.



Really??

Actually, Christ tells us to judge others and what they teach and preach so we wont be led astray by them.  

Lets stick to what the Bible says and not make up stuff as we go.


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## Arrowslinger (Jan 6, 2007)

Tn_Extreme said:


> Really??
> 
> Actually, Christ tells us to judge others and what they teach and preach so we wont be led astray by them.
> 
> Lets stick to what the Bible says and not make up stuff as we go.



For us ignorant "cult" members please quote the scripture were Jesus tells us to judge.


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## Lead Poison (Jan 6, 2007)

PWalls said:


> There will be Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc in Heaven. There will also be Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc in Hades.
> 
> Personal faith and trust in Jesus Christ and His salvation and a repentent heart is what it takes to get to Heaven. Period.
> 
> It is my opinion that the word "Christian" applies to anyone who sincerely calls upon the name of Christ for salvation. Other names (Catholic, Baptist, Methodist) are sometimes hindrances and sometimes help in realizing that goal. I am a "Christian" first that chooses to attend a Southern Baptist church because it falls more in line of where I think the Bible leads.



Amen, I agree 100%


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## brian chambers (Jan 6, 2007)

I see 






mr know it all; is speaking his scat again, hummmmm

Are Catholics Christians? 

Yes they are!


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## Tn_Extreme (Jan 7, 2007)

Arrowslinger said:


> For us ignorant "cult" members please quote the scripture were Jesus tells us to judge.



Luke 21:8 for one, just off the top of my head.

"And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them."

Sounds like he is telling people to judge others to make sure they are speaking and preaching the TRUE gospel.

We cannot pray to DEAD people....It does NO good.  Asking someone (a living person) to pray for us is fine.....  But asking Mary or some other person the RCC claims is a SAINT just because of their designated claim by them is WRONG.

BTW, according to the Bible those of us who are saved are already SAINTS. And believe it or not ,some man living in  a billion dollar, gold laden mansion in Rome  didnt have to vote on it either.


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## Arrowslinger (Jan 7, 2007)

Show me the quote!!

I don't want your lousy made up interpretation of a quote. You said it was in the Bible. Show us all the Quote were Jesus said we should Judge. Go on show us!

Your hatred of everything you don't understand shows. I met many like you, your a dime a dozen your blinded by perceptions and I won't waste my breath on you any longer. I'm sure your eyes will be opened one day. 

Shaking the dust from my sandels.


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## 60Grit (Jan 7, 2007)

Arrowslinger,

This is what I was raised on.

*Matthew 7:1-3 *

* 1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. *

* 3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?*


*Luke 6:36-38 *


*36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.* * 37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."*


*John 12:46-48*

*
46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. *

*47 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.*


I could go on, but whats the point. I am sure there are those who's post I cannot see that will find 20 more scriptures and take them out of context to counter your point.


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## NoOne (Jan 7, 2007)

I think the area of judgement we are talking about is judgeing  between what  Gods word says about things compared to the things that man teaches or the religious world teaches.


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## brian chambers (Jan 7, 2007)

TN Extreme said we were supposed to judge others.  The Bible says this:  

Matthew 7:1 (KJV) "Judge not, that ye be not judged. 



You are a sad case, bashing other folks thinking it makes your idea the right one is paramount to being a idiot!

 I further see you did not complete the task at hand.  The U.S.A. was founded with the right to worship.

 Bashing the church and Mary is stupid, you're a zealot of hatred values. 
 This is not the place for you to show this kind of scat, maybe you wanna write a book and call it the true good book.


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## Arrowslinger (Jan 7, 2007)

fishing technician said:


> I think the area of judgement we are talking about is judgeing  between what  Gods word says about things compared to the things that man teaches or the religious world teaches.



Then that needs to be made clear. 
Jesus is never quoted in the Bible as saying to "Judge others and what they teach and preach". That was stated as fact and knew it needed to be cleared up. I think Scooter did an excellent job in pointing out what the Bible tells us about Judgeing others.


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## Tn_Extreme (Jan 7, 2007)

Sorry the truth goes right over your head Arrowslinger. I stand on what the BIble says. Jesus and many others in the BIble tells us to beware of false teachers and people who preach a false Christ. That is exactly what that verse and dozens of others just like it pertain to.

I have NO hatred for anyone in the RCC...I married a former, lifeling, RCC member.  I have inlaws who were born, raised and some are still in some very "old school", RCC churches up north. I know what the RCC teaches, preaches, and stands on.....  I wont go any further than that.


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## matthewsman (Jan 7, 2007)

*does Satan believe Christ saved him from his sins?*



Hawkeye said:


> Well Satan Believes that ,doesn't he ?



Does Satan believe Christ saved him from his sins.......The difference is head knowledge and heart knowledge......Not do you believe in the factual concept of Christ,but do you believe he is the Way, the Truth,and the Light...

and YOU know the difference


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## brian chambers (Jan 7, 2007)

Tn_Extreme said:


> Sorry the truth goes right over your head Arrowslinger. I stand on what the BIble says. Jesus and many others in the BIble tells us to beware of false teachers and people who preach a false Christ. That is exactly what that verse and dozens of others just like it pertain to.
> 
> I have NO hatred for anyone in the RCC...I married a former, lifeling, RCC member.  I have inlaws who were born, raised and some are still in some very "old school", RCC churches up north. I know what the RCC teaches, preaches, and stands on.....  I wont go any further than that.



You misunderstand what the Bible says.  You have quoted out of context.  I think you are a false teacher.  I can't say anything about your wife or your relatives, but I can say it is not your place to judge anyone on this earth unless you are a judicial judge.  The fact that  you go to such extremes to bash specific members shows your real lack of formal education in the Word of God.  As I said before, this country was founded with the right of worship.  Do you not understand what that means?  I think not.  You seem to have a particular talent of picking on the Roman Catholic Church and all Catholics in general.   Your mannerisms reveal your heatheness.  You have no idea what was going on in this world in 300 AD and you have no idea what is going on today.  If you want to really impress me and other folks, why don't you go and find a cult of satan worshipers and convert them all.  I have read your horrible gibberish concerning Roman Catholics repeatedly and even been santured by the moderator while you walk around picking on folks like a bully.  You don't hear any Roman Catholics attacking you or any religion on this forum.


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## addictedtodeer (Jan 8, 2007)

the judging thing is a sticky issue.
I think the issue is judgmental attitudes against an individual vs. judging based on scripture.
Christ challenges us to judge based on what we know is right (John 7:24). We are to call sin...sin (that is judging).
Paul then tells us leave the world alone but watch the church (1 Corinthians 5:1-13). We are to hold each other to the standard that is in scripture (WITH LOVE).
We are to stand on scripture and if it calls it a sin ,then it is a sin.  We err when we make our opinions about scripture the standard. We are to hold each other accountable in speech, and actions not to condemn but to give the hope that is found in Jesus!  We hold the church accountable so that we can free one another from the chains of sin.
One of our deacons has made this statement:
If you love me why would you leave me wallowing in my sin?Love me enough to call sin, sin.
Pointing out sin is to be done with ALL humility and compassion with the goal being freedom for the one you love.


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## StriperAddict (Jan 8, 2007)

addictedtodeer said:


> the judging thing is a sticky issue.
> I think the issue is judgmental attitudes against an individual vs. judging based on scripture.
> Christ challenges us to judge based on what we know is right (John 7:24). We are to call sin...sin (that is judging).
> Paul then tells us leave the world alone but watch the church (1 Corinthians 5:1-13). We are to hold each other to the standard that is in scripture (WITH LOVE).
> ...



Amen to that 

!!


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## 60Grit (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *addictedtodeer* 

 
_the judging thing is a sticky issue.
I think the issue is judgmental attitudes against an individual vs. judging based on scripture.
Christ challenges us to judge based on what we know is right (John 7:24). We are to call sin...sin (that is judging).
Paul then tells us leave the world alone but watch the church (1 Corinthians 5:1-13). We are to hold each other to the standard that is in scripture (WITH LOVE).
We are to stand on scripture and if it calls it a sin ,then it is a sin. We err when we make our opinions about scripture the standard. We are to hold each other accountable in speech, and actions not to condemn but to give the hope that is found in Jesus! We hold the church accountable so that we can free one another from the chains of sin.
One of our deacons has made this statement:
If you love me why would you leave me wallowing in my sin?Love me enough to call sin, sin.
Pointing out sin is to be done with ALL humility and compassion with the goal being freedom for the one you love._

Amen to that 

!!

DITTO.........


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## PWalls (Jan 8, 2007)

addictedtodeer said:


> the judging thing is a sticky issue.
> I think the issue is judgmental attitudes against an individual vs. judging based on scripture.
> Christ challenges us to judge based on what we know is right (John 7:24). We are to call sin...sin (that is judging).
> Paul then tells us leave the world alone but watch the church (1 Corinthians 5:1-13). We are to hold each other to the standard that is in scripture (WITH LOVE).
> ...



Good post.


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## Clark10 (Jan 8, 2007)

I rarely comment on religion but had to ask a couple of questions on this.

Being catholic I have always felt I was Christian.  And I still believe that even though people on this post are telling me different.

Why must religions always put a label on anyone that does not have the exact ideas they were taught?

Focus on your own religion instead of having issue with others.  Because I guarantee there are good and bad people in Catholic religions,  as well as Baptist, as well as the Jewish religion.

Accept people for who they are and not what they believe in. If they are good honest people who lend a helping hand and are a positive to society than accept them dont throw a label on them.

If you focus on the negative u are taking away on what you can make positive.


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## StriperAddict (Jan 8, 2007)

*Clark10, our good works cannot save us...*

Titus chapter 3:4-7

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 

 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 

 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 

 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


For any "religious" people out there, what do these verses mean to you?  Would you still subscribe to the idea that just by following the teachings of your "religion" (Cathloic or otherwise) that you can belong to the Lord that way?  It is clear the Titus verses (also compare  Eph 2:8-10, Rom 4:2 and 9:32) do NOT carry the notion that good works are the means to a right relationship to God.  Only God's mercy and GRACE can accomplish that through Jesus' death and ressurection.


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## addictedtodeer (Jan 8, 2007)

Clark10 said:


> Accept people for who they are and not what they believe in. If they are good honest people who lend a helping hand and are a positive to society than accept them dont throw a label on them.



The problem is that Christ commands us to do more.  The gospel tells us we must change, we must repent.  All of us must give up what we believe and cling to Christ alone.  That means Baptist, Methodist, Non-Denomination, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist are all the same to Christ.  *We all must be saved by Him alone.*
Good honest people according to Christ are divided into two categories: Those saved by Him and those not. It's the same about all those that don't fit the "good and honest" category.  
John3:16-18
_"For God so loved the world,[g] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. _
The gospel is offensive to all who want it to be our way not Christ's. There's no way to sugar coat it without changing the message. We are told that it will be an offense to some but to others it will be life.
2 Corinthians2:14-16 
_But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient[a] for these things?_


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## whitworth (Jan 8, 2007)

*Son, the last time*

I was in a Catholic Church, for a funeral, they had this huge cross at the front of the church, with someone nailed to it.
Who do you think that was?


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## jmharris23 (Jan 15, 2007)

You are a Christian if you believe that Jesus Christ lived on this earth, died for your sins, was buried, and rose again! 

Now the whole point of believing that would be to allow that belief to so affect your life that you begin to act more and more like Jesus. 

If you believe in Jesus and do your dead level best to conform your life to be like Jesus. You don't have anything to worry about! 

Making a profession, drinking some whine (or grape juice) and bread and going to church 3 out of 4 Sundays does not make you a Christian. Following and acting like Christ makes you a Christian!

As far as the RCC is concerned there are good and bad just like Baptists, but it IS NOT biblical to pray to Mary nor to have to go to a priest to get to God. In order to make this work YOU MUST take verses out of context and twist there meaning. 

The bible is to be read in totality- what is found in Genesis affects what is found in The Revelation and everything in between.


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## brian chambers (Jan 15, 2007)

yeap


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## brian chambers (Jan 15, 2007)

You been a catholic a while yeap you da man


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## shadow2 (Jan 15, 2007)

Clark10 said:


> I rarely comment on religion but had to ask a couple of questions on this.
> 
> Being catholic I have always felt I was Christian.  And I still believe that even though people on this post are telling me different.
> 
> ...



Very good points...


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## brian chambers (Jan 15, 2007)

God loves you im sure


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## justme (Jan 16, 2007)

Yes, Catholics are christians.... I usually stay out of this crap.. i do read it but i don't post...but enought is enough...I wish you all would grow up and stop this... just agree to disagree... and be done with it...and find something more useful to pick at each other about....


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## Arrowslinger (Jan 16, 2007)

Creek hunter said:


> THIS SAYS IT ALL!
> 
> http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp


WOW!!! CreekHunter found a truely unbiased source of information!! Your a genious. I'm marching on down to my church and taking back my Catholic Membership! 
Hey CreekHunter is your church taking new members? 
Would I have to bring my own snake for the dances or do you provide them? Also can you get me one of those fish emblems for my truck? I know I'll have to back into the parking lot of the local bar so people can't see it but Hey, I want into Heaven.
CreekHunter you need to be ashamed of yourself! 

P.S. I'll never post on one of these threads again. We start off debating and discussing like grown folks then we get real "Intelligent" and start throwing mud!


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## Jim Thompson (Jan 16, 2007)

once again we have evolved into a lovely conversation.


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## PJason (Jan 16, 2007)

I have to wonder if Creek Hunters name is in the Vatican's super computer.






     

http://www.catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts_p1.asp


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## QuakerBoy (Jan 16, 2007)

Jim Thompson said:


> once again we have evolved into a lovely conversation.



yup...surely we'd all make it to heaven if we treated each other with this much respect


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## bruceg (Jan 16, 2007)

I miss Phil. 

Okay - I was raised in a Protestant church and converted to Catholicism as an adult. I did this after going to mass every Sunday with my wife and kids. She didn't ask me to go to mass, I asked her to come with me. She didn't ask me to convert, I did after attending for 10 years and going through adult education. Part of becoming a Catholic as an adult is proving you were baptised. The priest had to verify that I was baptised in a church. Not a Catholic church - just a church. They accepted people of other Christian faiths, and accepted a lot of the beliefs I held. The priest held that a baptism is a baptism.

My children go to a catholic church. They are active in the church. One was a lector (read from the Bible during mass). The other was an alter server, and now leads the alter servers, schedules them and trains them. He is also on the liturgy committee.

Why am I even telling anyone this? Especially here? Because I know in my heart I did not lose my faith in Jesus Christ when I became a Catholic. 

I really REALLY hate the Catholic discussions on this board - but a lot of you guys have shown a lot of understanding. Thanks.

And finally - so my children know that non-Catholics are also Christians, I have encouraged them to visit other churches. My middle son went to a Baptist summer camp and has gone to their youth program with friends. I've taken my youngest son to a Methodist church.

You would be surprised (probably not) at how much we believe in common. I don't consider myself a biblical scholar, so haven't picked apart the differences. It's funny - I went to a Christian college (The King's College - used to be in Briarcliff Manor NY). While the majority of students there were Baptist, there where Christians of all stripes. We did Bible study classes every semester, and services every day. I don't remember there being an anti-Catholic bias at TKC. I know there were Catholics there, and they were welcomed, encouraged and accepted.

I hope we can do the same here.


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## SBG (Jan 16, 2007)

Jim Thompson said:


> once again we have evolved into a lovely conversation.




Unbelievable.


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## Jim Thompson (Jan 16, 2007)

rpaul11 said:


> yup...surely we'd all make it to heaven if we treated each other with this much respect



you would think that would help huh?


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## QuakerBoy (Jan 16, 2007)

Jim Thompson said:


> you would think that would help huh?



isn't it obvious?  since everyone who posted here knows they are goin to heaven


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## Jim Thompson (Jan 16, 2007)

rpaul11 said:


> isn't it obvious?  since everyone who posted here knows they are goin to heaven



with they way some act towards each other they may want to rethink it


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## QuakerBoy (Jan 16, 2007)

Jim Thompson said:


> with they way some act towards each other they may want to rethink it



that's what I was sayin


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## HuntinTom (Jan 16, 2007)

Another loaf that's been baked to done -- This one might of actually overcooked...   But, the oven's off, and this baby's on the shelf...


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