# The unforgiveable sin



## tomtlb66 (May 17, 2010)

I wanted to find out more on this subject. Just wanted some of your opinions. I know what I believe is the unforgiveable sin, but was curious what you think.


----------



## shortgo (May 17, 2010)

unbeliefe is the only unforgiven sin.


----------



## Jeff Phillips (May 17, 2010)

Blasphmy of the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin.


----------



## rjcruiser (May 17, 2010)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Blasphmy of the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin.



yup...cursing God.


----------



## PWalls (May 17, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> yup...cursing God.



You mean taking the Lord's name in vain?

I have always thought that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is denying the conviction that He brings on you to make you realize your need of Salvation. In essence, you harden your heart to the point where you do not accept the gift of Salvation. That was the "blasphemy" in question.


----------



## tomtlb66 (May 17, 2010)

That is what I believe too. I was reading this subject and the people were so afraid that they committed this sin and the pastor was saying if they were worried about it, they didn't do it. They said it was just the devil putting the fear in their hearts.


----------



## pnome (May 17, 2010)

Waiting for a consensus to emerge here......


----------



## PWalls (May 17, 2010)

pnome said:


> Waiting for a consensus to emerge here......



So far, RJ is the only one with a different view. The others all line up.


----------



## pnome (May 17, 2010)

PWalls said:


> So far, RJ is the only one with a different view. The others all line up.



OK so let me make sure I've got this right.

The only unforgivable sin is unbelief?  Saying "I believe in Zeus" or "I don't believe in God"

Unforgivable?  Does that mean that if I were to repent my ways, and accept Jesus, I still wouldn't be forgiven?


----------



## Paymaster (May 17, 2010)

PWalls said:


> You mean taking the Lord's name in vain?
> 
> I have always thought that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is denying the conviction that He brings on you to make you realize your need of Salvation. In essence, you harden your heart to the point where you do not accept the gift of Salvation. That was the "blasphemy" in question.



Pretty much how I see it as well.


----------



## PWalls (May 17, 2010)

pnome said:


> Unforgivable?  Does that mean that if I were to repent my ways, and accept Jesus, I still wouldn't be forgiven?



Not the way I believe it. If you continually deny the Holy Spirit's conviction all the way up until your death, you are unforgiven and face the final judgement. If you accept the conviction, then basically, you are no longer guilty of that sin and can be saved. I think the problem for the unbeliever though is that over time their heart is hardened to the point where they will never open up themselves to that conviction.

I am sure others have a better explanation than mine.


----------



## Spurhunter1 (May 17, 2010)

No sin is unforgivable to God. Denying him till death is the only way you cannot be saved....or forgiven.
Humans on the other hand, have list and list of unforgivable sins...I have my list, but I am working on this.


----------



## tomtlb66 (May 17, 2010)

I put this out there for a reason and I appreciate all the responses. I believe it was Martin Luther that had a struggle with this and wrote a fabulous article on fear and this particular subject. The people who were terrified that they had committed this sin was tortured for years and finally understood the truth behind this. Thanks for all the responses and please pray for everyone who reads this and God Bless.


----------



## PWalls (May 17, 2010)

PWalls said:


> So far, RJ is the only one with a different view. The others all line up.



Actually, I think RJ is right as well. 

The sin of unbelief is basically a denial of God's power and ability to save someone. That is also a form of cursing God.


----------



## pnome (May 17, 2010)

PWalls said:


> Not the way I believe it. If you continually deny the Holy Spirit's conviction all the way up until your death, you are unforgiven and face the final judgement. If you accept the conviction, then basically, you are no longer guilty of that sin and can be saved. I think the problem for the unbeliever though is that over time their heart is hardened to the point where they will never open up themselves to that conviction.
> 
> I am sure others have a better explanation than mine.



Then it's not unforgivable at all.  It would be akin to you saying homosexuality is an unforgivable sin.  

If a person repents their homosexuality, then no problem.  But if they die a homosexual, then they go to he!!.  Right?  

What's the difference between this and any other sin then?


----------



## Lowjack (May 17, 2010)

The Unforgivable sin is to attribute the Works of the Holy Spirit to Satan.
As many do when they Judge a preacher, Oi Vey !


----------



## PWalls (May 17, 2010)

pnome said:


> Then it's not unforgivable at all.  It would be akin to you saying homosexuality is an unforgivable sin.
> 
> If a person repents their homosexuality, then no problem.  But if they die a homosexual, then they go to he!!.  Right?
> 
> What's the difference between this and any other sin then?



Because of the timing.

If you die in a state of unbelief, then it is too late. You are truly unforgiven at that point of the sin of unbelief and you face the final judgement. The shed blood does not your sin because you are not a believer.

If you die an unrepentent sinner, but are a believer, it is not too late to be forgiven because the shed blood covers that unrepentent sin already. Jesus already paid for that unrepentent sin and you do not face the final judgement.


----------



## rjcruiser (May 17, 2010)

PWalls said:


> Actually, I think RJ is right as well.
> 
> The sin of unbelief is basically a denial of God's power and ability to save someone. That is also a form of cursing God.



That is what I meant.  Just put it a different way.

No...I don't believe that a Christian who takes the Lord's name in vain is going to he!l.  I do believe it to be a sin, but not the unforgivable sin.


----------



## scottypp (May 17, 2010)

Remember- the Cross ? The two men crucified at the same time with Jesus- .. one recognized WHO Jesus was- and went to heaven- the other had a "hard heart" and "denied" God for who he was.. (blasphemy) that one- he didn't get to go to heaven..


----------



## earl (May 17, 2010)

''If you die in a state of unbelief, then it is too late. You are truly unforgiven at that point of the sin of unbelief and you face the final judgement.''

Unless you are Jewish. Right LJ ?


----------



## farmasis (May 17, 2010)

earl said:


> ''If you die in a state of unbelief, then it is too late. You are truly unforgiven at that point of the sin of unbelief and you face the final judgement.''
> 
> Unless you are Jewish. Right LJ ?


 
I don't think Jews will get a pass on denying Jesus as the son of God. During the tribulation, they will have the chance...but that chance will cost then their life.


----------



## pnome (May 17, 2010)

PWalls said:


> Because of the timing.
> 
> If you die in a state of unbelief, then it is too late. You are truly unforgiven at that point of the sin of unbelief and you face the final judgement. The shed blood does not your sin because you are not a believer.
> 
> If you die an unrepentent sinner, but are a believer, it is not too late to be forgiven because the shed blood covers that unrepentent sin already. Jesus already paid for that unrepentent sin and you do not face the final judgement.



I understand now.  Thanks.  That's a good explanation.

That said.  Even if I did believe in your God, I could not, in good conscience, serve Him.   A god who would forgive a murdering rapist just because he believed, yet condemn to eternal torment someone like myself, is no god for me.  

As I've said before:  I believe in a god that doesn't mind that I don't believe in him.


----------



## Lowjack (May 17, 2010)

farmasis said:


> I don't think Jews will get a pass on denying Jesus as the son of God. During the tribulation, they will have the chance...but that chance will cost then their life.




eeeeh Wrong if God had mercy on you , what makes you think he will not have mercy on his chosen ones ?

Romans 11

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.


19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.


20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:


21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye(Gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.


32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!


34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

God's Judgment seems to be quite different than yours all, I thank God Final Judgment is not up to men.


----------



## FishHunt (May 17, 2010)

pnome said:


> As I've said before:  I believe in a god that doesn't mind that I don't believe in him.



I don't see how a loving father could banish his children to a he!!?   It's my belief that all people will continue on....not just a select few.


----------



## Slewfoot (May 17, 2010)

*Un belief*

To not believe / accept the gift


----------



## Ronnie T (May 17, 2010)

Well.
I can see that we Christians are all in unity on this one.
I agree with all of you.
Well said.


----------



## christianhunter (May 17, 2010)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Blasphmy of the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin.



Amen!
The only unpardonable sin!


----------



## thedeacon (May 17, 2010)

If you reject Jesus you reject Jesus, it is that simple. That is a judgement not made by man but made by God. You can't get to heaven without following Jesus.

I don't care who you are.

Not my opinion but that is what Jesus said.


----------



## christianhunter (May 17, 2010)

thedeacon said:


> If you reject Jesus you reject Jesus, it is that simple. That is a judgement not made by man but made by God. You can't get to heaven without following Jesus.
> 
> I don't care who you are.
> 
> Not my opinion but that is what Jesus said.



No argument on that Brother,that is Scripture.You can be given a chance to repent of that sin,though,and Believe on THE LORD.Blasphemy of THE HOLY SPIRIT will not be forgiven.


----------



## farmasis (May 17, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> eeeeh Wrong if God had mercy on you , what makes you think he will not have mercy on his chosen ones ?
> 
> Romans 11
> 
> ...


 
Pastor, are YOU saying that you can reach heaven and not believe Jesus is the son of God? Because if you do, then you are one of the men you speak about. Yes God will have mercy on Israel, and Jews are free (although blinded from the truth) to come to Him now through Christ..but most will reject Christ until God chooses to remove this veil. The Bible says he will after the fulness of the gentiles. I believe that will be after the rapture...and we have been that road before.

The Bible is clear!

*<SUP>7</SUP>* What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28214 class=versenum>*8*</SUP> Just as it is written: 


_“ God has given them a spirit of stupor,_
 _ Eyes that they should not see_
_And ears that they should not hear,_
_To this very day.”_<SUP class=footnote value='[d]'>[d]</SUP>

<SUP id=en-NKJV-28215 class=versenum>*9*</SUP> And David says: 


_“ Let their table become a snare and a trap,_
_A stumbling block and a recompense to them._
       <SUP id=en-NKJV-28216 class=versenum>*10*</SUP> _Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,_
_ And bow down their back always.”_<SUP class=footnote value='[e]'>[e]</SUP>
*<SUP>25</SUP>* For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (Romans 11)

*<SUP>4</SUP>* whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. (2 Cor 4:4)
<SUP id=en-NKJV-28232 class=versenum></SUP> 
<SUP></SUP> 
*<SUP>10</SUP>*let it be known to all of *you and to all the people of Israel*, that* by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene*, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead--by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 

 <SUP id=en-NASB-27034 class=versenum>*11*</SUP>"He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.  <SUP id=en-NASB-27035 class=versenum>*12*</SUP>"*And there is salvation in no one else*; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4)

*<SUP>5</SUP>*For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5)

 <SUP id=en-NASB-26675 class=versenum>*6*</SUP>Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. (John 14:6)

 <SUP id=en-NASB-28201 class=versenum>*12*</SUP>For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; (Romans 10:12)


----------



## Lowjack (May 17, 2010)

Comment on God's mercy ,before you understand the rest.
We are all under his mercy and he allowed those that knew not the one true God to receive mercy, thus making all (Both Jews and Gentiles) To fall short of the Glory of God Romans 3-23
So that he could by his mercy even save those that he blinded for the sake of those who never knew about him, read it Romans 11 ;27 to 34

Will then God Allow those he blinded who were his elect to be lost ? or will he reward them with the resurrection from the dead and the kingdom of God.
What Kind of God would let his elect be lost ? for the sake of others ?
That is not the God of Israel.


----------



## farmasis (May 17, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Comment on God's mercy ,before you understand the rest.
> We are all under his mercy and he allowed those that knew not the one true God to receive mercy, thus making all (Both Jews and Gentiles) To fall short of the Glory of God Romans 3-23
> So that he could by his mercy even save those that he blinded for the sake of those who never knew about him, read it Romans 11 ;27 to 34
> 
> ...


 
Read my post before you condemn my beliefs.

When did I ever say Israel will not recieve mercy or salvation? I said I believe they (Jews that have not accepted Christ) will endure the Great Tribulation. You believe that also, we only differ in that I do not believe the church will be there to endure it with them. Is it not a biblical fact that during this tribulation, those that do confess Jesus as lord will be put to death? (Rev 20:4)

I said all must seek Jesus to find God. I responded to the post about Jews getting a pass for not believing in Jesus before their death.


----------



## kevozz (May 17, 2010)

Learned something new.  I always thought suicide was the unforgivable sin.


----------



## nimrod (May 18, 2010)

From Charles Stanley's Q&A page. 

Q: What is the "unpardonable sin"?

I have talked with Christians and non-Christians who were afraid they had committed the unpardonable sin. Just about everyone had a different understanding of exactly what it was, but they all felt hopeless. Believers who believe they have committed the unpardonable sin have a difficult—if not impossible—time accepting the doctrine of eternal security. Where there is no assurance of God’s acceptance, there is no peace, joy, or hope.  This is the main reason we need to deal with the issue. 

Hundreds of verses in the Bible promise the forgiveness of our sins. But only one passage refers to an unforgivable sin.  Jesus had healed a demon-possessed man who was blind and could not speak (Matthew 12:22).  The multitudes following Jesus began to say, “This man cannot be the Son of David, can He?” They wondered if He was the Messiah.

On the other hand, the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.  Jesus’ response to their accusation is found in Matthew 12:31-32. In this passage, He refers to blasphemy.  The term “blasphemy” may be defined “defiant irreverence.”  We would apply the term to sins such as cursing God or willfully degrading things considered holy. The Pharisees had witnessed undeniable evidence that Christ was performing miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, yet they attributed the miracles to Satan. 

I agree with a host of biblical scholars that this unique circumstance cannot be duplicated today.  The Pharisees had seen proof of Christ’s deity.  But they attributed the supernatural power to Satan instead of the work of the Holy Spirit.

Christ is not in the world as He was then. Although the Holy Spirit still accomplishes supernatural things through His servants, they are merely representatives of the King.  The circumstances of Matthew 12 make it impossible for this sin to take place today. And this incident is the only one in which a sin is declared unforgivable. The Bible states, “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved” (Romans 10:13).  No invitation to salvation carries with it an exception clause, “unless you have committed the unpardonable sin.”

No matter how evil our sins, there is pardon for them.  God forgave David for his adultery, dishonesty, and murder (2 Samuel 12:13; Psalm 51).  Simon Peter’s denial of our Lord accompanied by profanity was forgiven (Matthew 26:74-75).  The apostle Paul was forgiven of his merciless persecution of Christians (Acts 9:1). Just about every possible sin is listed somewhere in the New Testament. And every one of them falls into the category of forgivable. 

Although there is no unpardonable sin today, there is an unpardonable state—the state of continued unbelief.  There is no pardon for a person who dies in unbelief.  The Bible refers to this in terms of having a hard heart.  The hardening of the heart is not a one-time act.  It is the progression in which sin and the conviction of the Holy Spirit are ignored.  The hardened heart has no desire for the things of God.  But if you have desire in your heart for God, demonstrated by your concern that you have committed some sort of unpardonable sin, you do not have a hardened heart.  Your concern confirms your innocence.  God always welcomes those whose hearts are sensitive toward Him.

On the other hand, if you are unsaved, that can be remedied this very moment. Salvation is by faith alone—faith in the death of Jesus Christ for your sin. You can place your faith in Him by praying a simple prayer expressing trust in Christ alone for the payment of your sin. Acknowledge your sin, accept Christ’s payment, receive His forgiveness, and thank Him for the gift of eternal life


----------



## farmasis (May 18, 2010)

"Although there is no unpardonable sin today, there is an unpardonable state—the state of continued unbelief. There is no pardon for a person who dies in unbelief."

Semantics.

God's word says that creation is evidence of him. If we are in creation and deny him, we blaspheme him. If he comes to us through the Holy Spirit and reveals the truth to us, and we deny it, we blaspheme him.


----------



## Huntinfool (May 18, 2010)

FishHunt said:


> I don't see how a loving father could banish his children to a he!!?   It's my belief that all people will continue on....not just a select few.



and that is what we refer to as Universalism.  I gotta say, guys, the anti's have GOT to be getting a kick out of this thread.  

PLEASE, if you don't know why you believe something, do some research...ask someone who is well versed...do something other than post "well, I think..."


----------



## pnome (May 18, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> and that is what we refer to as Universalism.  I gotta say, guys, the anti's have GOT to be getting a kick out of this thread.
> 
> PLEASE, if you don't know why you believe something, do some research...ask someone who is well versed...do something other than post "well, I think..."



Oh, I'm getting a kick out of it alright.  But likely not in they way you think.   FishHunt's post is the most reasonable of the bunch.

But don't worry.  I understand why Christians have to believe in their exclusivity.  Just like every other religion.  It's part of the program.  

How can you convince some otherwise reasonable person to follow your religion?  Answer: Tell him that the only way to live forever in eternal happiness (as opposed to eternal torment if he refuses) is by worshiping your God.  Pretty simple when you think about it.  

Promise him heaven and everything he has ever dreamed of.  Then, when it's time to deliver on those promises, it's no problem at all!  He's dead!


----------



## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

scottypp said:


> Remember- the Cross ? The two men crucified at the same time with Jesus- .. one recognized WHO Jesus was- and went to heaven- the other had a "hard heart" and "denied" God for who he was.. (blasphemy) that one- he didn't get to go to heaven..



Can you prove either?  Serious question.


----------



## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> PLEASE, if you don't know why you believe something, do some research...ask someone who is well versed...do something other than post "well, I think..."



That just might kill the entire forum, and close the SDDS without any Admin/Moderator intervention.


----------



## Huntinfool (May 18, 2010)

There is plenty here that believers agree on and have pretty good consensus on.  But this one has been the most "all over the board" that I've seen in a long time. 

I'm simply asking that everybody at least understand why they believe something.


----------



## gtparts (May 18, 2010)

> Originally Posted by FishHunt  View Post
> I don't see how a loving father could banish his children to a he!!? It's my belief that all people will continue on....not just a select few.



There is a huge difference in being one of God's creations and being a child of God. Being a human being does not make you a child of God.

Everyone begins life, due to our sin nature, outside of the family of God. 

Many spend a lifetime being exposed to the Word of God, hearing it from God's children, seeing God's revelation in the natural world, but never seeking to know Him or to be reconciled to Him.

The process of becoming a child of God is likened to adoption by Paul. Now, in the secular world, adoption rarely involves the active participation of the child, all active parties being the adopter(s) and the birth parent(s) or guardian(s). A child of a reasonable age and maturity may be questioned by the legal authorities on his or her opinion and it may have influence, but, by and large, infant adoption does not include input from the adoptee.

God's provision for becoming His child is through His Son, Jesus, the Christ. The process is called _salvation_.

Now, while God loves every one of His human creations, that is,  they have equal value, they do not have equal position. That position is determined by the individual. When faced with the decision to yield their will to God or not, those who choose God in Christ for their Lord and Savior become children of God. Those who do not, they remain creations only.

Some will say this is unfair or controlling of God. "There is no real choice involved." Deny it all you care to, but the choice is real and the consequences of accepting or rejecting God's offer of adoption is also real.

What I see in many of these post is those who are unwilling to accept God at His Word and, therefore, choose to reject His very existence.

 Then we have those who, because of their unwillingness, choose to plead ignorance as an excuse. "How can I know for certain? I have no scientific proof, so I concede the possibility of Him being real, but choose to act according to my will."

Then there are those who seem to grasp some of who God is, yet proceed to "flesh out" the character and nature of God with the things that serve their personal interests, rather than making use of God's revealed Word. They piece-meal together a god that suites them. He is usually characterized as all-loving, all-forgiving, having no real expectations of us or requirements for us. "Live as good a life as you want. Everyone gets a pass, from the best to the worst."

And then, eventually we get to the rest of us, the Christians who have trusted God with all we have and are. We give testimony to the truth of God's Word, tested and found not lacking. We give personal testimony to the change and effect following Christ has had on us and others. We tell you that God wants a relationship with you, as He has with each of us. We explain how that can happen to anyone who truly believes, confesses and repents of his or her sin, and accepts Jesus as living Lord and Savior. 

Well, it is all we have been told to do. It is really all that we can do. The rest is up to God, in fact, the Holy Spirit has really done all of this anyway.

All I can say to you is, 

FishHunt, you put a great deal of faith in your opinion.


----------



## pnome (May 18, 2010)

gtparts said:


> We give testimony to the truth of God's Word, tested and found not lacking.



Can you give me the details of your test so that I may attempt replicate your results?


----------



## jbowes89 (May 18, 2010)

Dude, it's in the BIBLE.


----------



## CollinsCraft77 (May 18, 2010)

Okay gentleman,

I am a Christian, albeit not a perfect one. Still, I am what many refer to as a Primitive Baptist, or an Old School Baptist. We believe in predestination and election. We do not adhere to the exclusitivity of the Christian religion as being the only ones going to heaven. We believe that God made the choice. I know this opens up a can of worms for many of you "freewill" people and it's been argued before on here.

There is no unpardonable sin in reference to going to heaven. It is a reflection of your relationship with God in this life, here on Earth. God took care of the heavenly part before we ever existed and confirmed and finished it on the cross.

Ephesians 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of HIS WILL.

Pnome, I totally understand your feelings to the subject. We believe that the salvations, and yes there are many, are attributable to this life. We believe there are people of all religions going to heaven. Belief in Jesus Christ is a confirmation of your election but in no way precludes others from being there. It is not universalism. It is God's grace and who are we as humans to dictate to God who goes and who does not. Freewill believers have to believe in exclusivity, else there is no merit to there faith. At one time, there was no freewill belief in the Baptist Church. It actually, in the grand scope of history of the Baptist Church, a relatively new doctrine. Men love control. You want true faith? Leave it up to God.

I know this will get a rise out of many of you. It always does. Still, the Bible says faith is the fruit of the spirit, meaning the result of the spirit. I often wonder how one could exercise faith first to obtain the spirit, when faith is the result of such spirit. Gotta have the spirit first. Well, how is that spirit obtained? If you are born dead spiritually, as all Christians believe, then how does one suddenly become alive enough to make a decision on faith? Either your dead or your not. 

An easy example of this is two cups. Both created the same. both designed to carry water. Both are totally dead and without life. I've got the water. Now I can sit and wait for either of them to ask me to fill them up. I'll sit forever because neither can. I choose to fill one of them. and so it is with God's spirit. If God waits on man to ask for eternal life, he'd wait forever because man in his nature is against God. God doesn't give you enough spirit to awaken you so you can choose. There is no age of accountability when we suddenly can choose right or wrong. God places his spirit in you first, quickenething his chosen. Yes, they can reject him in this world. But Christ died to overcome man's inability. Ephesians2:8 says "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD"

There is no unpardonable sin as pertaining to heaven. No look at the same two glasses. They are different in color, make, origin. Still, neither can ask for water. So is it with men of all origins. There is a purchased possession. Bought. Paid for. Done.


----------



## jmharris23 (May 18, 2010)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Okay gentleman,
> 
> I am a Christian, albeit not a perfect one. Still, I am what many refer to as a Primitive Baptist, or an Old School Baptist. We believe in predestination and election. We do not adhere to the exclusitivity of the Christian religion as being the only ones going to heaven. We believe that God made the choice. I know this opens up a can of worms for many of you "freewill" people and it's been argued before on here.
> 
> ...



WOW


----------



## CollinsCraft77 (May 18, 2010)

Pnome,

Also, I feel the same way you do concerning God and interaction between us. If one is to have a real father/son relationship, then one has to actually have a relationship like a father and a son. I have questioned so many things. I have cursed at him hundreds of times for things I do not agree with or understand. I never feel condemned. A little guilty sometimes but I do not believe God sits up there with a checklist going, "Strike 4,112. Strike 4,113" Rather, he probably sits up there and laughs at me for my ignorance. at least I hope he is. Just like my old man did with me and exactly like I do with my kids. Have we (MOST OF US) not at one time or another cursed our own parents? Told them we hated them? I know it mostly happens earlier in life. My parents never stopped loving me. They knew it was my ignorance. And I learned they were right. I never stopped loving them but sometimes you just say stupid things. If you are to have a real relationship, it must have good times and bad times.

I question my faith all the time. I question God daily. He makes me mad and I know I do him. I'm quite positive he has said on more than one occasion," You idiot. I had it laid out perfectly for you" I find it funny to those who think a relationship with God is all roses and nothing bad. That's why churches across this world are filled with heartless robots. i think God finds that boring. Maybe I'm wrong. But what if I'm right? Religion would be a little more exciting to men if they had some passion, both good and bad.


----------



## gtparts (May 18, 2010)

pnome said:


> Can you give me the details of your test so that I may attempt replicate your results?



Gladly! The first condition that must exist is that you must have a personal salvation relationship with God. 

I am sure you understand the need to place controls on testing or experiments for the results to be valid.

The reason is quite simple. While God created the dolphin at Sea World, He is not a trained performer, who does tricks for a herring snack, as the dolphin does. God knows when you are sincere before you approach Him with petitions.  

I guess what you are looking for is independent verification, maybe?

There are many on this forum who can do so. How many do you require?

Perhaps the issue is repeatability. 

OK, ask how many rely on God as the ultimate source for all they have....... and remember the first condition. Ask them about the many blessings they have received or the mercy shown them. Ask them who is responsible for the positive changes in their lives, how they are different in character and behavior. Ask them where and what they were before they came into relationship with Jesus and where they are now.

About now you are thinking that I am stacking the deck on you by limiting the people to be questioned. 

Not really. If you wanted to know what "walking on the moon" was like, it would only make sense to inquire of those who had done so. The comments of anyone else could only be speculative or based on second-hand information at best.

The point is, until you are ready to experience God, you aren't ready to test God and He may choose not to respond as you think He should.

Have a blessed day, my friend.


----------



## CollinsCraft77 (May 18, 2010)

jmharris23,

My beliefs are actually a lot more wide spread than you'd like to believe. In fact, it's very common. It just isn't what is mainstream today.


----------



## CollinsCraft77 (May 18, 2010)

gtparts,

Actually man can not approach God on his own. God does that.

Psalm 65:4

Blessed is the man WHOM THOU CHOOSEST, and causest to approach thee, that he may dwell in thy courts:

Man will not and simply can not just do it.


----------



## gtparts (May 18, 2010)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> gtparts,
> 
> Actually man can not approach God on his own. God does that.
> 
> ...



This is true, but so many think they can approach and set the terms. 
When God has prepared them, and in His timing, they will approach. That is why I responded to the inquiry about "testing God" the way I did. God is looking for the compliant, not the defiant.


----------



## formula1 (May 18, 2010)

Acts 17
24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 
25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 
26 And He has made from one blood[c] every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 
27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

Well, seek Him (V27) in hope that He will choose you.


----------



## Oak-flat Hunter (May 18, 2010)

2Corinthians  11chap;10 thru 15 verses


----------



## CollinsCraft77 (May 18, 2010)

We are close but I think all men are defiant in their fallen nature. I understand what you are trying to say and even though I think I scared the mod with my earlier comments, we are truely not that different.

Paul would be more defiant than compliant before his conversion, wouldn't you agree?


----------



## gtparts (May 18, 2010)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> We are close but I think all men are defiant in their fallen nature. I understand what you are trying to say and even though I think I scared the mod with my earlier comments, we are truely not that different.
> 
> Paul would be more defiant than compliant before his conversion, wouldn't you agree?



He was more than compliant to what he thought was right. Sincere in all respects, but sincerely wrong. I am glad for my sake that, when confronted with the Truth, Paul did a 180` turn..... compliant to God and defiant to the practice of false religion.


----------



## CollinsCraft77 (May 18, 2010)

I guess I can agree with that. 

Still, did not Jesus tell Ananias that Paul was a chosen vessel?


----------



## jmharris23 (May 18, 2010)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> jmharris23,
> 
> My beliefs are actually a lot more wide spread than you'd like to believe. In fact, it's very common. It just isn't what is mainstream today.



Well just to make sure I am clear on what you said.

 Are you telling me there is another way to heaven other than faith in Jesus Christ?


----------



## pnome (May 18, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Gladly! The first condition that must exist is that you must have a personal salvation relationship with God.



And how does one go about getting this relationship?  

I'm pretty sure I've tried this route before, in my younger days when I still believed.   I prayed a LOT.  Was a confirmed Catholic and went to mass every Sunday.  Never once did God respond to me.  Never.

Why?   I considered Jesus my personal Lord and Savior.  Yet my prayers were _always_ one way conversations.

Has he ever responded to you? 



> I guess what you are looking for is independent verification, maybe?



Correct.



> OK, ask how many rely on God as the ultimate source for all they have....... and remember the first condition. Ask them about the many blessings they have received or the mercy shown them. Ask them who is responsible for the positive changes in their lives, how they are different in character and behavior. Ask them where and what they were before they came into relationship with Jesus and where they are now.



Anecdotes are not going to cut it.  I could ask the same questions of a Muslim or a Hindu and get similar answers.  




> If you wanted to know what "walking on the moon" was like, it would only make sense to inquire of those who had done so. The comments of anyone else could only be speculative or based on second-hand information at best.



True, but I would have to be convinced that the person I was talking to had actually walked on the moon before I trusted them don't you think?   For that I would require empirical evidence of some sort.



> The point is, until you are ready to experience God, you aren't ready to test God and He may choose not to respond as you think He should.



I am ready to experience God!  He can respond however it pleases Him.


----------



## FishHunt (May 18, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> and that is what we refer to as Universalism.  I gotta say, guys, the anti's have GOT to be getting a kick out of this thread.
> 
> PLEASE, if you don't know why you believe something, do some research...ask someone who is well versed...do something other than post "well, I think..."



Does it make you feel superior when you make snide comments like this?   

I believe in Jesus Christ...but I also believe God is more loving and understanding than you believe him to be. 

I know, I know.....the Bible says otherwise.  But I can't ignore the fact that the Bible was put together by men with an agenda.   Prejudice, exclusivity, vengeance ..those are all traits of man, not God.


----------



## Lowjack (May 18, 2010)

FishHunt said:


> Does it make you feel superior when you make snide comments like this?
> 
> I believe in Jesus Christ...but I also believe God is more loving and understanding than you believe him to be.
> 
> I know, I know.....the Bible says otherwise.  But I can't ignore the fact that the Bible was put together by men with an agenda.   Prejudice, exclusivity, vengeance ..those are all traits of man, not God.



Yes God is more loving and understanding than any man would ever hope to be, I praise his name for his love, Grace and Mercy.


----------



## CollinsCraft77 (May 18, 2010)

Okay, we believe wholeheartedly in Jesus Christ. The difference is you believe that you must believe in him first to get to heaven. We believe you are able to exercise faith I him because you were predestinated before the world began.

The problem with your concept is that you guys agree your norm dead in sin with no spiritual life whatsoever and then magicallyall of a sudden you able to be spiritually alive enough to make a decision and if you choose wrongly, your back to being spiritually dead. There is no age of accountability in the Bible. That's another relatively new concept to the church. Go back and look at baptist history. Three hundred years ago what you guys believe in today would have been considered blasphemy. Freewill was a catholic ideology. Even in the early Methodist church, the greatest open air preacher whitfield preached predestination and election. Wesley couldn't stand it because it wasn't catholic enough for him. John Calvin nailed it. So did spurgeon. Still, in today's me first society, man has to be able to control himself. Augustine was preaching this hundreds of years before them and all the anabaptists that the catholic church killed believed it as well. Society has changed and religion has as well. That's why freewill people are called new school and those of us who have held on to the old faith as old school. In fact, election is the only doctrine that can be historically traced back to the early church.


----------



## CollinsCraft77 (May 18, 2010)

Sorry my phone spelled half of that


----------



## pnome (May 18, 2010)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Sorry my phone spelled half of that



Postin' in the Spiritual forum from a phone.  I've done that before!

You know you're a woody's addict when....


----------



## CollinsCraft77 (May 18, 2010)

Yeah, nut I don't post too much in this section. I understand about never hearing from God with my ears. I fuss at him for that sometimes too. But I gotta believe he speaks in other ways. Typically like when I pray to see big deer, it generally never happens. Lol! He humbles you. But sometimes I just feel a sense of his presence and that's enough. I'm very into the history of the church and I study doctrines a lot but I'd be lying if I said I never struggle with his existence, or his answers, or that he makes me mad sometimes.


----------



## CollinsCraft77 (May 18, 2010)

Dadgum phone. I could launch a nuke from Russia with this thing but can't type a coherent sentence


----------



## gtparts (May 18, 2010)

pnome said:


> And how does one go about getting this relationship?


 
The first thing everyone has to deal with is to believe He exists and I'm not sure you have come full circle to the point where He is acknowledged for who He is.

And because we are speaking of relationships, it is not something one "gets", but rather it is developed and nurtured, it is fed by love and respect.... much like I would hope you relate to others... your wife or parents, for example. It takes study of His Word and a desire to relate to Him on His terms. All this is in His Word and confirmed by the Holy Spirit.



pnome said:


> I'm pretty sure I've tried this route before, in my younger days when I still believed.   I prayed a LOT.  Was a confirmed Catholic and went to mass every Sunday.  Never once did God respond to me.  Never.



Never? You were never blessed? Never mercifully spared pain and suffering? Never received comfort? God never used others to meet your needs? I don't think you are being candid here. Most often God uses His children to accomplish His will in the lives of others. Were you seeking His will in your life or for Him to conform to your will?
Interesting how these things revolve around doing and not being. How is it that others were "confirmed Catholic and went to mass every Sunday" and wound up in a totally different place? Perhaps the difference was making an effort to please God because of who He is, rather than trying to get something out of Him. Bargaining and trying to manipulate God rarely gets a response, at least not the desired one. Truthfully, I can not say why you had such difficulty, but I can assure you God has always been there for you. 



pnome said:


> Why?   I considered Jesus my personal Lord and Savior.  Yet my prayers were _always_ one way conversations.



God doesn't seem to "speak" audibly to His children very often. Was Jesus really Lord and Savior or was He more like a possession. As a child, I most often thought of the last swing on the left as mine. Of course, it belonged to the school system. I didn't maintain it, take it home, or store it when school was out. A genuine relationship with God, with Jesus is based on you being His. I am His possession. And , btw, it is one title, Lord and Savior. If He is not Lord of all, He is not Lord at all.




pnome said:


> Has he ever responded to you?



Yes, all the time. Many times He has said "No" or "Wait". Many times He has answered in ways I could not imagine but were ultimately better, exceeding all I had asked.







pnome said:


> Anecdotes are not going to cut it.  I could ask the same questions of a Muslim or a Hindu and get similar answers.



Why would you ask someone who has no relationship with Jesus (no moon-walking experience)?  The Muslim, if honest, would say Allah gives only what Allah chooses to give, even when one works diligently to please him. Allah causes suffering and we cannot know why. It is just His will. One cannot have a personal relationship with Allah. They will tell you this outright.






pnome said:


> True, but I would have to be convinced that the person I was talking to had actually walked on the moon before I trusted them don't you think?   For that I would require empirical evidence of some sort.



Get to know me. If I lie to you, you can not trust what I say. If I do not lie to you, then you should have confidence in what I tell you. Trust is the reliance on the character of the one you are in relationship with. So it is with God. 





pnome said:


> I am ready to experience God!  He can respond however it pleases Him.



I wish, I pray that one day that will be true. When you come to the place where you know you can not make it on your own, that apart from God picking you up and making things right, you have no hope, He will be there and you will "hear" what so many have "heard".


----------



## earl (May 18, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> There is plenty here that believers agree on and have pretty good consensus on.  But this one has been the most "all over the board" that I've seen in a long time.
> 
> I'm simply asking that everybody at least understand why they believe something.





Because the bible tells them so. Ain;t it funny how it tells different people different things , all from the same passages ?


----------



## farmasis (May 18, 2010)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> gtparts,
> 
> Actually man can not approach God on his own. God does that.
> 
> ...


 
Covenants are two party agreements. Man has his part. Man cannot do it alone, and it is not God's desire to make our choice for us.

<SUP id=en-NASB-18744 class=versenum>*3*</SUP>"Incline your ear and come to Me 
         Listen, that you may live;
         And I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
         According to the faithful mercies shown to David. 

<SUP id=en-NASB-18747 class=versenum>*6*</SUP>Seek the LORD while He may be found;
         Call upon Him while He is near. (Is 55)

*<SUP>6</SUP>*"Seek the LORD that you may live,
         Or He will break forth like a fire, O house of Joseph,
         And it will consume with none to quench it for Bethel, (Amos 5)

Jesus said <SUP id=en-NASB-23488 class=versenum>*28*</SUP>"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. (Matt 11)

Jesus said  <SUP id=en-NASB-26250 class=versenum>*39*</SUP>"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 
 <SUP id=en-NASB-26251 class=versenum>*40*</SUP>and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 

*<SUP>37</SUP>*"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. (John 6)


<SUP id=en-NASB-30345 class=versenum>*7*</SUP>Submit therefore to God Resist the devil and he will flee from you.  <SUP id=en-NASB-30346 class=versenum>*8*</SUP>Draw near to God and He will draw near to you Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. (James 4)


----------



## farmasis (May 18, 2010)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Okay, we believe wholeheartedly in Jesus Christ. The difference is you believe that you must believe in him first to get to heaven. We believe you are able to exercise faith I him because you were predestinated before the world began.
> 
> The problem with your concept is that you guys agree your norm dead in sin with no spiritual life whatsoever and then magicallyall of a sudden you able to be spiritually alive enough to make a decision and if you choose wrongly, your back to being spiritually dead. There is no age of accountability in the Bible. That's another relatively new concept to the church. Go back and look at baptist history. Three hundred years ago what you guys believe in today would have been considered blasphemy. Freewill was a catholic ideology. Even in the early Methodist church, the greatest open air preacher whitfield preached predestination and election. Wesley couldn't stand it because it wasn't catholic enough for him. John Calvin nailed it. So did spurgeon. Still, in today's me first society, man has to be able to control himself. Augustine was preaching this hundreds of years before them and all the anabaptists that the catholic church killed believed it as well. Society has changed and religion has as well. That's why freewill people are called new school and those of us who have held on to the old faith as old school. In fact, election is the only doctrine that can be historically traced back to the early church.


 
I disagree. Freewill can be traced back not only to the early church, but to the apostles and the mouth of Jesus. The denial of free will is the more modern concept of the reformers 1500+ years later. I have lots of scripture to back up the truth of freewill.  Also, age of accountability if we go there.


----------



## farmasis (May 18, 2010)

jmharris23 said:


> Well just to make sure I am clear on what you said.
> 
> Are you telling me there is another way to heaven other than faith in Jesus Christ?


 
X2...you (Collinscraft) said there would be religions other than Christians in heaven. Who and How?


----------



## pnome (May 18, 2010)

gtparts said:


> The first thing everyone has to deal with is to believe He exists and I'm not sure you have come full circle to the point where He is acknowledged for who He is.



Perhaps I do not believe that He exists now, but I certainly have in the past.  And during that time in my life, I never saw Him.




> Never? You were never blessed? Never mercifully spared pain and suffering? Never received comfort? God never used others to meet your needs? I don't think you are being candid here. Most often God uses His children to accomplish His will in the lives of others. Were you seeking His will in your life or for Him to conform to your will?



Certainly I have been blessed.  I've had my good fortune.  But I never _saw_ the God of Abraham influencing it.  Am I to attribute any good fortune to Him?  And how do I know which god was doing me the favor?



> Interesting how these things revolve around doing and not being. How is it that others were "confirmed Catholic and went to mass every Sunday" and wound up in a totally different place? Perhaps the difference was making an effort to please God because of who He is, rather than trying to get something out of Him.



But aren't you just trying to get something out of him?  Eternal life? Isn't that what this whole thing is about?  You've denied that in the past, but I don't think you're being intellectually honest with yourself.  If God had nothing to offer you, then why would you worship Him?



> Bargaining and trying to manipulate God rarely gets a response, at least not the desired one.



It has been my experience that it doesn't ever get a response.



> Truthfully, I can not say why you had such difficulty, but I can assure you God has always been there for you.



I don't see how you can assure me of that.  No, I am quite convinced He was never there at all.



> God doesn't seem to "speak" audibly to His children very often. Was Jesus really Lord and Savior or was He more like a possession. As a child, I most often thought of the last swing on the left as mine. Of course, it belonged to the school system. I didn't maintain it, take it home, or store it when school was out. A genuine relationship with God, with Jesus is based on you being His. I am His possession. And , btw, it is one title, Lord and Savior. If He is not Lord of all, He is not Lord at all.



Look, I've tried the whole getting saved deal.  And I really did believe it all.  It still did not work.  God did not show Himself to me.  



> Yes, all the time. Many times He has said "No" or "Wait". Many times He has answered in ways I could not imagine but were ultimately better, exceeding all I had asked.



He's never said a word to you and you know it.  That you attribute random things beyond your control to His divine will is guesswork, at best.



> Why would you ask someone who has no relationship with Jesus (no moon-walking experience)?  The Muslim, if honest, would say Allah gives only what Allah chooses to give, even when one works diligently to please him. Allah causes suffering and we cannot know why. It is just His will. One cannot have a personal relationship with Allah. They will tell you this outright.



You clearly know more about Islam than I do.  My point is that anyone who has "found religion" (any religion) could say that it was his god that helped him.  They all have the same amount of proof for this.



> Get to know me. If I lie to you, you can not trust what I say. If I do not lie to you, then you should have confidence in what I tell you. Trust is the reliance on the character of the one you are in relationship with. So it is with God.



I don't think you're lying to me.  I think you are lying to yourself.

Trust God you say.  To which I would reply that I do.  I trust that if He does exist, the small matter of my believing in Him or not will have no affect on Him.  I trust that He is above such petty megalomania. 



> I wish, I pray that one day that will be true. When you come to the place where you know you can not make it on your own, that apart from God picking you up and making things right, you have no hope, He will be there and you will "hear" what so many have "heard".



I cannot sit here and tell you that in my darkest hour I won't reach for Him.   But right now, while I am healthy and of sound mind, I do not.   Desperation may change my mind, I'm no super human.  But now I can see clearly, and I don't see Him anywhere.


----------



## Steve Thompson (May 18, 2010)

Very interesting comments.
My privilage to read. God loves us all so much. Once someone truly understands the fundimental principles of how we control our lives with his love for us and ours for him, life is a lot simpler. Heaven has a lot of diffrent rewards. Someone may make it however they may also have task relative to how they passed through life on Earth. I have no doubt that God is more proud of some Christians, and so am I.


----------



## thedeacon (May 18, 2010)

If anyone has any concern about being guilty of the unpardenable sin then he cannot be guilty of commiting it.


----------



## FishHunt (May 19, 2010)

pnome said:


> I trust that if He does exist, the small matter of my believing in Him or not will have no affect on Him.  I trust that He is above such petty megalomania.



This is how I see it anyway.  I wrote in an earlier post that it's my belief  man has given God human like characteristics , some of which are not our best.


----------



## Israel (May 19, 2010)

pnome, don't be concerned. Believing in god will do you no good at all if it falls short of leading you into his life through Jesus Christ.

God don't want you gazing at him and assenting to his existence. That just makes you think "how big of me...I acknowledege God's existence" That's fer religions.
He wants you in him, and himself in you. 
If you ain't up for that kinda intimacy...what a drag. 
That way you know..."wow...how big of God to acknowledge me!"


----------



## pnome (May 19, 2010)

Israel said:


> He wants you in him, and himself in you.



What does that _mean_, exactly?


----------



## Branchminnow (May 19, 2010)

PWalls said:


> Not the way I believe it. If you continually deny the Holy Spirit's conviction all the way up until your death, you are unforgiven and face the final judgement. If you accept the conviction, then basically, you are no longer guilty of that sin and can be saved. I think the problem for the unbeliever though is that over time their heart is hardened to the point where they will never open up themselves to that conviction.
> 
> I am sure others have a better explanation than mine.



Sounded good to this country boy


----------



## Branchminnow (May 19, 2010)

I still say we need to get together without guns and knives and dicuss some of these things in person.


----------



## gtparts (May 19, 2010)

pnome said:


> Perhaps I do not believe that He exists now, but I certainly have in the past.  And during that time in my life, I never saw Him.



Being reared in a particular belief, being exposed to the belief of others, does not constitute personal belief. It seems that you accepted the nature of faith that others exhibited, but never made that commitment yourself. It is quite common for children to give almost rabid attention to things that parents focus on. A rabid Wildcat fan at 9 years old has had none of the experience of matriculating there, much less committing 4 or 5 years to the culture and experience of attending classes and participating in the activities at Kentucky. Consider the possibility that you were following the lead of your parents in similar fashion.






pnome said:


> Certainly I have been blessed.  I've had my good fortune.  But I never _saw_ the God of Abraham influencing it.  Am I to attribute any good fortune to Him?  And how do I know which god was doing me the favor?



Where does unmerited favor come from? Mere chance? The confluence of time and space? How is it when my needs are greatest and all natural resources are depleted, that my needs are met? God "shows up" in many ways. I have found Him in a stranger and in a friend, in a book and in a picture, in a song and in blessed silence. I think you have physically looked, scanned the horizon, but you have never spiritually sought Him. The best place to start is His Word. Study and meditate on the meaning and its application to your life. Many spiritual "eyes" have been opened this way. And, yes, God is the source of all good things.





pnome said:


> But aren't you just trying to get something out of him?  Eternal life? Isn't that what this whole thing is about?  You've denied that in the past, but I don't think you're being intellectually honest with yourself.  If God had nothing to offer you, then why would you worship Him?



I have never gotten anything from Him that He did not intend for me to receive. How much have I missed because of my poor attitude and bad behavior? What have you missed out on? 

God is not in the business of bribing or coercion. Involuntary compliance is unacceptable to Him. He draws those who would be drawn. His divinity is sufficient reason to worship Him. 





pnome said:


> It has been my experience that it doesn't ever get a response.



How human, to exhaust ones patience of the Eternal. 

God is far more interested in the development your character and depth of your commitment than your schedule or comfort. 





pnome said:


> I don't see how you can assure me of that.  No, I am quite convinced He was never there at all.



He only has to show up once to be utterly convincing. God finds the arrogance and pride, the inhumility of men to be disengaging. In fact, God opposes the proud. That might be a large part of your difficulty "seeing"Him.





pnome said:


> Look, I've tried the whole getting saved deal.  And I really did believe it all.  It still did not work.  God did not show Himself to me.



It is not a deal, to be done. It is a covenant to live up to, a lifetime agreement. Perhaps your statement that, " It still did not work." is an indication of the attitude you have toward God. What exactly do you want God to do for you?





pnome said:


> He's never said a word to you and you know it.  That you attribute random things beyond your control to His divine will is guesswork, at best.



You would like me to give confirmation that God does not speak to others, myself included. I can not give you that. I can only testify to that which I know and have experienced. God has done things in me and in my viewing that could only be from Him. I will not rob Him of the glory He deserves.





pnome said:


> You clearly know more about Islam than I do.  My point is that anyone who has "found religion" (any religion) could say that it was his god that helped him.  They all have the same amount of proof for this.



Not to belabor the point, but it makes no sense to inquire about God from one who has no relationship with God. Islam is based on a religion. Christianity is based on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, the Christ.





pnome said:


> I don't think you're lying to me.  I think you are lying to yourself.



Which is it?



pnome said:


> Trust God you say.  To which I would reply that I do.  I trust that if He does exist, the small matter of my believing in Him or not will have no affect on Him.  I trust that He is above such petty megalomania.



Doesn't sound like total reliance to me. Why is it so hard to understand that God wants your "heart" because He loves you and it is the desire of His heart to have a relationship with you? Do not worry, God will get along quite well without you, your rejection of Him will not diminish Him in the least,..... but is not what He chooses for you. It is what you choose for yourself. If your comment on "petty megalomania" is intended to upset me, it does not. If it was directed at God, the offense, I am sure, was noted.





pnome said:


> I cannot sit here and tell you that in my darkest hour I won't reach for Him.   But right now, while I am healthy and of sound mind, I do not.   Desperation may change my mind, I'm no super human.  But now I can see clearly, and I don't see Him anywhere.



There is seeing and then there is spiritual "sight".


----------



## WTM45 (May 19, 2010)

gtparts said:


> There is seeing and then there is spiritual "sight".



That can be argued as being as bogus as faith, ghosts, eternity, demons and even the very existance of deities.


----------



## pnome (May 19, 2010)

gtparts said:


> There is seeing and then there is spiritual "sight".




I think we can end our debate on this point.  I clearly just do not posses this "spiritual sight" you speak of.   As far as I am concerned, there is no such thing.


----------



## WTM45 (May 19, 2010)

pnome said:


> I think we can end our debate on this point.  I clearly just do not posses this "spiritual sight" you speak of.   As far as I am concerned, there is no such thing.



Those people who claim they do possess such, or make the claim of being "enlightened" are simply attempting to use a platform of exclusivity to grandstand, making themselves appear "better than" others.  It is a simple desire to be "chosen," special, exclusive and eternal in existance.
Maybe even god-like for some.

How can people let faith completely take over reasoning so that reality does not mean much to them anymore?


----------



## gtparts (May 19, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> That can be argued as being as bogus as faith, ghosts, eternity, demons and even the very existance of deities.





pnome said:


> I think we can end our debate on this point.  I clearly just do not posses this "spiritual sight" you speak of.   As far as I am concerned, there is no such thing.



I will not argue your posts above. Far be it from me, to disturb those who are content to remain in spiritual darkness.


----------



## WTM45 (May 19, 2010)

gtparts said:


> I will not argue your posts above. Far be it from me, to disturb those who are content to remain in spiritual darkness.



But, it really is not "darkness."
It is quite a relief when one sees the truth.  The truth that some creator deity does not allow humans to be born condemned to an eternity of torture simply because of the misdeeds of a parable about Adam and Eve.


----------



## jmharris23 (May 19, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Those people who claim they do possess such, or make the claim of being "enlightened" are simply attempting to use a platform of exclusivity to grandstand, making themselves appear "better than" others.  It is a simple desire to be "chosen," special, exclusive and eternal in existance.
> Maybe even god-like for some.



This is an unfair and untrue statement


----------



## WTM45 (May 19, 2010)

jmharris23 said:


> This is an unfair and untrue statement



Mark, I can give many names and numerous examples.
And they come from MANY different religious belief systems.


----------



## jmharris23 (May 19, 2010)

Maybe so?  But you made an  all inclusive statement. 

I can give you just as many names of men and women who have no desire but to be anything but HUMBLE servants of the Savior who died for them. 

They have no desire to grandstand nor appear better than anyone. 
In fact they only wish to show the world that whatever goodness they have comes from Christ, and that without Him they are nothing at all.

We have no desire to be chosen, special, or exclusive.


----------



## WTM45 (May 19, 2010)

jmharris23 said:


> Maybe so?  But you made an  all inclusive statement.
> 
> I can give you just as many names of men and women who have no desire but to be anything but HUMBLE servants of the Savior who died for them.
> 
> ...



I will agree with you, in that my statement was a little too broad.  I should ammend it to read with the very first word being "Many" instead of "Those."

But, would not those who believe simply to obtain a favorable eternity deal be acting in their best interests?
Self serving, as it would seem?
The "many" keeps getting larger...

And, those who feel such favoritism are quick to attempt to point out how those who are not chosen for such a favorable eternity are gonna be condemned to one that is said to be quite uncomfortable.
The "many" is in growth mode again...

Would not a creator deity see right through such?

Please note I am not arguing for the sake of argument.  I wish I could see further through the fog, and I appreciate the imput.
I try daily.  I guess I fail daily.


----------



## jmharris23 (May 19, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> I will agree with you, in that my statement was a little too broad.  I should ammend it to read with the very first word being "Many" instead of "Those."
> 
> But, would not those who believe simply to obtain a favorable eternity deal be acting in their best interests?
> Self serving, as it would seem?
> ...




I do not think that men and women who have solely claimed God to "obtain a favorable eternity" will get the deal they are looking for. 


As for those who through a pure and true faith have obtained that "favorable eternity" you cannot expect them not to share the hope they have in Christ with you. 

Christ Himself taught "one way through one Lord"

 What would you have me to say? That He was kidding? That there really is more than one way? That those who do not profess Him will somehow avoid H E L L? 

I cannot say that because its not what my savior taught. 

Make no mistake though, in no way do I find pleasure in proclaiming what scripture teaches as the reality of H E L L. 

It is not a matter of me wanting to be exclusive or to condemn others. 

It is simply a matter of proclaiming what I see as TRUTH. 



Don't get me wrong Les. I completely understand the skeptic. I don't even blame the skeptic.  

I used to have great hope in the church to change the world. 

Unfortunately it seems the world has changed the church. 

But there are men and women out there, of one faith, though many denominations, who have been saved through faith and show evidence of that salvation. 

Those men and women follow Christ with reckless abandon and every day submit more and more of their life to Him. 

They are not enlightened, they are a new creation with a new heart. 

It's not lip service, its reality, and over time their lives will provide sufficient evidence to prove such. 

Unfortunately, the world sees so much lip service and "false faith" that it easily dismisses Christianity. 

Its a shame that the "religious institution" of the church may send more people down the road to ****ation than it does to salvation.


----------



## CollinsCraft77 (May 19, 2010)

Missed the discussion last night and I'm at work now but I'll respond to the above post concerning church history but you might want to read up on Augustine. 

Y'all have a good day


----------



## WTM45 (May 19, 2010)

Is using one's mind to seek answers outside of faith a curse placed on them by the creator deity?
Are some just "chosen" while others will see things completely different when NOT using faith, emotion or by going on the words of others?

It surely can not be a "blindness" as some would like to define it, to obtain knowledge and seek to make decisions to accept/reject belief systems based on logic, evidence, proofs and factual experience rather than using faith.

It seems strange to some of us that one is considered "wiser" to simply not question the Bible and accept it all through their faith.

Over a lifetime I have asked hard questions of my pastors, my professors, teachers, priests and gurus.  They all arrive at a point where the answer is "just accept it as true."
Some people just can not do that.


----------



## jmharris23 (May 19, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Is using one's mind to seek answers outside of faith a curse placed on them by the creator deity?
> Are some just "chosen" while others will see things completely different when NOT using faith, emotion or by going on the words of others?
> 
> It surely can not be a "blindness" as some would like to define it, to obtain knowledge and seek to make decisions to accept/reject belief systems based on logic, evidence, proofs and factual experience rather than using faith.
> ...



To all that you said above- I know. 

As for questioning the Bible and God, I don't see that as a wrong move. I am well aware that some people are built in such a way that they must have answers. 

I am just not sure what answer you or others are looking for? 

I'd love for you to help dial me in on that.


I will say though that Scripture is clear about coming to Christ through faith. You may use some logic, you may obtain some evidence, but at some point there must be faith. 

Surely there are things that you believe to be true that you dont have all the evidence to prove?


----------



## WTM45 (May 19, 2010)

Mark, maybe because I am calloused to the concept of faith I should not post here.
I just don't see any way for me to "rebuild" or "repair" the faith I once saw steamrolled.

But... I do listen, I respect other's faith and maybe I am here to keep looking for myself.  That sounds selfish, I know.


----------



## gtparts (May 19, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Is using one's mind to seek answers outside of faith a curse placed on them by the creator deity?
> Are some just "chosen" while others will see things completely different when NOT using faith, emotion or by going on the words of others?
> 
> It surely can not be a "blindness" as some would like to define it, to obtain knowledge and seek to make decisions to accept/reject belief systems based on logic, evidence, proofs and factual experience rather than using faith.



All these things (logic, evidence, proofs and factual experience) are highly desirable in accessing and dealing with, and manipulating the physical world in which we live. They just are not in any way a substitution for faith. One is truly blessed to have an ample supply of both.



WTM45 said:


> It seems strange to some of us that one is considered "wiser" to simply not question the Bible and accept it all through their faith.
> 
> Over a lifetime I have asked hard questions of my pastors, my professors, teachers, priests and gurus.  They all arrive at a point where the answer is "just accept it as true."
> Some people just can not do that.



The petulant child stomps his foot and demands his way. At the center is undeniable pride, born of ignorance and arrogance. The desire to know all and, in some way, to control all with that knowledge, when all one has to do is say, "I don't fully understand, I may never fully understand, but this much I am willing to concede: God knows it all, created it all, controls it all,....and I trust Him." 

It is not that "Some people just can not do that." To say so might be to confess one lacks control over their own thoughts and actions. 

It's that some people just WILL not do that."


----------



## jmharris23 (May 19, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Mark, maybe because I am calloused to the concept of faith I should not post here.
> I just don't see any way for me to "rebuild" or "repair" the faith I once saw steamrolled.
> 
> But... I do listen, I respect other's faith and maybe I am here to keep looking for myself.  That sounds selfish, I know.



I don't think its selfish, I think its sound and wise to continue to look. 

I also understand what can happen to a man when his faith is "destroyed."

Just know this, I for one, and others like me, will not condemn you for your lack of faith or desire for answers. 

But we will stand on what we believe, even when we'd rather not. 

Also know this, I pray for you and your heart, that it may be softened, that God may reveal Himself to you clearly, and that one day your faith be repaired.


----------



## WTM45 (May 19, 2010)

I honestly appreciate that.  Thanks for all the replies.
I honestly respect other's beliefs and faiths, even when I don't personally understand it.

Maybe my lack of faith and anger, which is quite individual and subjective is the only unforgiveable sin.


----------



## CollinsCraft77 (May 19, 2010)

Okay, first for Farmasis. Let me clarify. There is freewill in your Earthly walk with God. We believe your Heavenly home was decided long before you existed.

Let's look at your example from John.

ALL the THE FATHER GIVETH ME SHALL COME TO ME; and him the cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Who comes? Those the FATHER giveth
Does it say "SHALL COME" or might come?

Even your translation says will come. Doesn't say there's a chance they might come.

Go on down to verse 44 which says:

NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER DRAW HIM: and I WILL RAISE HIM UP at the last day.

Who can come? Only those whom the FATHER draws
What happens to those who are drawn? THEY WILL BE RAISED UP in the last day.

Where is the choice in either of those?

ROMANS 8  28-30 sums it all up

28 And we know that all things work tohgether for good to them that love God, to THEM who ARE CALLED according TO HIS PURPOSE.
29 FOR WHOM he did FOREKNOW, he also did PREDESTINATE to be CONFORMED to the image of HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover WHOM he DID PREDESTINATE, THEM he also CALLED: and WHOM HE CALLED, THEM he also JUSTIFIED: and WHOM HE JUSTIFIED, THEM he also GLORIFIED.

Still haven't seen where man has had a choice yet.

Go to the next chapter (9) and read about Jacob and Esau.

9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of WORKS, but of HIM THAT CALLETH
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 AS IT IS WRITTEN, JACOB HAVE I LOVED, but ESAU HAVE I HATED.

Loved Jacob before his birth and hated Esau before his birth?Hmmm? Think it isn't fair? Read on. The next 10 verse explain that man has no right to question God's election and no right to complain about it. Verse 21 is exact in it's description.

21 HATH NOT THE POTTER POWER OVER THE CLAY, of the SAME LUMP to MAKE ONE VESSEL UNTO HONOUR, and ANOTHER UNTO DISHONOUR?

Some made for honour and some for dishonour? THERE IS A LIMITED ATONEMENT. It is not universal.

John 3:16 is my favorite. We all know what it says. No need to repeat it. BUT, did you know the Greek word for world here is kosmos, and it's use here is the form of the word meaning "orderly arrangement"? that is straight from the Strong's Concordance and Greek dictionary. It's like when we say the Wide World of Sports. Do we mean the entire Earth? No. just that which is pertaining to sports. 

Now the believing part is well up to man. Sure, God opens a mans eyes to WHO HE REALLY IS and man can turn away from it or run to it. But God choose you and your faith is a testament that you were elected by God. Not the other way around.  He "quickens" you. Remember, FAITH IS A FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT. Not you get the spirit from faith. Faith is the result of, not the cause of. 

Eph 1:18

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that YE MAY KNOW what is the hope of HIS CALLING, and what the riches of his glory of his inheritance in the saints.

and finally, though I could list a hundred more like this

Second Timothy 1  9:10

9. Who HATH SAVED us and CALLED us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE and GRACE, WHICH WAS GIVEN US IN CHRIST JESUS

now read this last part

BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN,

10. But NOW IS MADE MANIFEST by the appearing of our SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, who hath abolished death, and hath brought LIFE AND IMMORTALITY TO LIGHT THRU THE GOSPEL.

The Gospel means of course "Good News", correct? Good news of what God has done for us. Like I said earlier, done. Finished. Bought and paid for. Your ability to believe in Jesus Christ is the direct result of God choosing you before the world was ever made. A perfect choice by a perfect God. Man can not nor ever will make the perfect choice because he has to use his mind and heart to do it. God took care of it and while you guys may not believe anything I have said and find it totally wrong, I on the other hand look at your beliefs, and even though I find them to be wrong, I still see your faith as a sign of your election and that you are one of God's chosen people and I'm alright with it.


----------



## CollinsCraft77 (May 19, 2010)

As for the topic of this thread, which I do not mean to hijack, there is no unpardonable sin in relation to going to Heaven ,as I've already explained in my beliefs.

Still, man does have the ability to choose to follow his calling. If he does follow God, he has peace and hope and asurance that God provides.

If a man chooses not to follow God, God will let him walk according to his own devices and yes, there comes a point in time where God seems so distant that if a man totally abstains from who he is, god can and will withdraw and that soul, though he be a Child of God, will never find peace and rest and it were as if he was alone.

That is what the gospel is about. Your ability to now have a meaningful, and for pnome, sometimes quiet relationship with God. When he opens your eyes to who you are, you can now go to him in faith and find what you need.

Trust me on this. I've been in both places. several times.


----------



## Ronnie T (May 19, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> I honestly appreciate that.  Thanks for all the replies.
> I honestly respect other's beliefs and faiths, even when I don't personally understand it.
> 
> Maybe my lack of faith and anger, which is quite individual and subjective is the only unforgiveable sin.




Jesus once spoke to a man about an unforgiveable sin.  But since that time, Jesus bore the penalty for the sins of all people who come to be God's children.

The unforgiveable sin has become a forgiven sin for one who turns to God and asks for forgiveness.  Through Jesus, ALL sin can be forgiven.

Also WTM45, I also hope and pray that you find that closeness to God that you once had.  Faith is a complicated thing.  My faith and Bro. Harris' faith is not the same.  At least, not at the same times in our lives.  That isn't a negative aspect of faith, but it's the nature of faith.

As young adults, my wife and I left the church and God after we lost a little baby.  I pretty much turned against God.  Now, somehow, God has captured my heart and mind.  I can't say when and how it happened, other than to say that God is always at work.  
Now, my faith in God is stronger than my will to live.  I'd rather pray than fish.  I'd rather visit a sick person than go to bassproshop.

I hope one day soon you'll be able to experience that also.


----------



## farmasis (May 19, 2010)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Okay, first for Farmasis. Let me clarify. There is freewill in your Earthly walk with God. We believe your Heavenly home was decided long before you existed.
> 
> Let's look at your example from John.
> 
> ...


 
We have an active part every time God lays out his plan of salvation...

*<SUP>44</SUP>*"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-26292>*45*</SUP>It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-26293>*46*</SUP>No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-26294>*47*</SUP>I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-26295>*48*</SUP>I am the bread of life. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-26296>*49*</SUP>Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-26297>*50*</SUP>But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-26298>*51*</SUP>I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." 



> ROMANS 8 28-30 sums it all up
> 
> 28 And we know that all things work tohgether for good to them that love God, to THEM who ARE CALLED according TO HIS PURPOSE.
> 29 FOR WHOM he did FOREKNOW, he also did PREDESTINATE to be CONFORMED to the image of HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
> ...


 
Our problem lies in the meaning of predestination and the foreknowledge of God. I have my definition, you have yours. But, what about Paul's, the author of Roman? In the same book he writes....

Did God justify us against our will? No!
*<SUP>1</SUP>*Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we<SUP> </SUP>have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5)
*<SUP></SUP>* 
*<SUP>10</SUP>*For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. (Romans 10)



> Go to the next chapter (9) and read about Jacob and Esau.
> 
> 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of WORKS, but of HIM THAT CALLETH
> 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
> ...


 
Next, there is no true free will. It is at best limited free will. God allows us to operate in a box he creates for us. Just as we do not have unlimited free will physically, we have limits spiritually. Overall God is sovereign and overrides our will at the discretion of his. God had a plan for Esau, and it was to start a people to bring hatred and malice to his beloved people. Esau had no choice. This, is an exception, not a rule. This is not God's plan of salvation for mankind.



> THERE IS A LIMITED ATONEMENT. It is not universal.


 
Atonement is not limited. Christ died for all.
1 John 2:2, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Cor 5:14, Romqans 5:18, Acts 17:30-31, 2 Cor 5:15, 1 tim 4:10, John 1:29, John 6:33, John 6:39-40, John 12:46-48, Romans 10:13 to name a few.



> John 3:16 is my favorite. We all know what it says. No need to repeat it. BUT, did you know the Greek word for world here is kosmos, and it's use here is the form of the word meaning "orderly arrangement"? that is straight from the Strong's Concordance and Greek dictionary. It's like when we say the Wide World of Sports. Do we mean the entire Earth? No. just that which is pertaining to sports.


 
My favorite also... Did you know the greek word κόσμος also means the whole world, all the inhabitants of earth, the whole mass of men alienated from god..etc, etc. And according to scholars..the word translated to an order (or adorning) 1 time, and the world 186 times...
Look it up here:
http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2889



> Now the believing part is well up to man. Sure, God opens a mans eyes to WHO HE REALLY IS and man can turn away from it or run to it. But God choose you and your faith is a testament that you were elected by God. Not the other way around. He "quickens" you. Remember, FAITH IS A FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT. Not you get the spirit from faith. Faith is the result of, not the cause of.


 
I can scratch off the pilar of irrestitable grace... one down.



> Eph 1:18
> 
> The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that YE MAY KNOW what is the hope of HIS CALLING, and what the riches of his glory of his inheritance in the saints.
> 
> ...


 
No doubt God does the work of salvation and gives it as a gift for mankind. Our job is to accept it.


----------



## CollinsCraft77 (May 19, 2010)

Let me ask you Farmasis, what is the result of people before Christ and of those who never get to hear Christ preached?


----------



## Ronnie T (May 19, 2010)

So is the "unforgiveable sin" thread now getting turned into the "I'm predestined to be Christian and you're not" thread?


----------



## emtguy (Jun 30, 2010)

I have always thought that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is denying the conviction that He brings on you to make you realize your need of Salvation. In essence, you harden your heart to the point where you do not accept the gift of Salvation. That was the "blasphemy" in question.[/QUOTE]

youre correct....only sin that will send you to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- is unbeleif.


----------

