# Can redemption occur after the rapture?



## mtnwoman (Aug 30, 2014)

With the exception of the Jews, why do you believe we can or cannot be saved after the rapture? Using your personal opinion with or without using scripture. Including such things, also, as to when the Holy Spirit will leave the earth in relation to the rapture.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 30, 2014)

"Can redemption occur after the rapture?"

Christ redeemed his people at the cross... perfectly.

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.” (Galatians 3:13)

“Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.” (Hebrews 9:12)

"It is finished"


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## hobbs27 (Aug 30, 2014)

Only when the atonement was complete and Christ returned did salvation come in its fulness.

11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through [o]the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 30, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> With the exception of the Jews, why do you believe we can or cannot be saved after the rapture? Using your personal opinion with or without using scripture. Including such things, also, as to when the Holy Spirit will leave the earth in relation to the rapture.



Are you  asking more about an individuals salvation after the rapture instead of Christ's redemption on the cross?

Will all of the Jews be saved or just the one's blinded? What about Gentiles that were blinded?


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## M80 (Aug 30, 2014)

Yes mam, according to revelation there will be a great number that make it through the tribulation. But If one has understood that Jesus died for their sins and has not been saved when the rapture takes place they will have no chance. God will turn them over to a reprobate mind where they will believe a lie


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 30, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Yes mam, according to revelation there will be a great number that make it through the tribulation. But If one has understood that Jesus died for their sins and has not been saved when the rapture takes place they will have no chance. God will turn them over to a reprobate mind where they will believe a lie



I'm not following the reprobate mind people. Does God offer salvation to individuals he turned over to a reprobate mind?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 30, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not following the reprobate mind people. Does God offer salvation to individuals he turned over to a reprobate mind?



Ofcourse I dont believe in a future rapture, but not making that an issue on this thread.

 The reprobate mind charge could not possibly be about people in the future because its mention is in past tense in Romans 1: 
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

And its not about people in some kind of post rapture millenium in our future but about ungodly people in the old covenant witnessed at the beginning of the chapter here: 


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


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## mtnwoman (Aug 30, 2014)

Mr Art, what I mean is, can folks come to salvation after the rapture. For example say my neighbor is an unbeliever when the rapture comes, is it possible for them to be saved or is it too late? I know, at least from what I understand, that there will be witnesses left to lead the blinded Jews into salvation, but will someone who is not saved, gentiles specifically, is there hope for salvation for them?  Hope that clarifies it a little more...


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 30, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Mr Art, what I mean is, can folks come to salvation after the rapture. For example say my neighbor is an unbeliever when the rapture comes, is it possible for them to be saved or is it too late? I know, at least from what I understand, that there will be witnesses left to lead the blinded Jews into salvation, but will someone who is not saved, gentiles specifically, is there hope for salvation for them?  Hope that clarifies it a little more...



I thought that's what you meant. I was taught growing up that at that point it was too late. Now I'm not sure anymore.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 30, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Ofcourse I dont believe in a future rapture, but not making that an issue on this thread.
> 
> The reprobate mind charge could not possibly be about people in the future because its mention is in past tense in Romans 1:
> 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
> ...



Kinda like when Paul said "such were some of you" or "the law is not made for a righteous man."
Both before being washed and receiving salvation.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 30, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought that's what you meant. I was taught growing up that at that point it was too late. Now I'm not sure anymore.



Yeah, that's what I'm thinkin', too.  Since I'm not sure exactly how the rapture will appear to others. Will they know the rapture came and could believe after that? Would they not have anyone to witness to them, since the 'church' will be removed? Who will 'draw' them? Will the Holy Spirit still be here to 'draw' them? Like a lot of languages and history gets more distance that no one can believe? Just like the folks who do not believe the holocaust ever happened, even though there is evidence?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 30, 2014)

Maybe this can give some of you comfort

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


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## M80 (Aug 30, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not following the reprobate mind people. Does God offer salvation to individuals he turned over to a reprobate mind?



Maybe not reprobates but believe a lie. Maybe this will help. 

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work. (- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -2 Thessalonians‬ - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -2‬:- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -1-17‬ KJV)


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## hobbs27 (Aug 30, 2014)

Mwilliams, I have a question about this in 2Thessalonians to help me better understand the rapture theory.

 If paul was reassuring them that Christ had not come yet, why didnt he just say..you know he hasnt come because you have not been physically raptured?

 I just cant figure this out, thanks.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 30, 2014)

Is the rapture physical or spiritual? Will Jesus return physically?
Who are the dead or sleeping? What does it mean to be caught up?
Has anyone ever been caught up before? 
Who are sleeping that will be awakened? Those blinded earlier?
Are the dead spiritually dead or physically dead? Were they eternally dead or was it just temporary? 
When individuals are caught up or "Harpazo" and meet the Lord is this spiritual or physical?
Did Paul ever mention being caught up? I believe he was. Would this be called a rapture/harpazo?


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## gemcgrew (Aug 31, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Maybe this can give some of you comfort
> 
> 2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


Also comforting is this, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me"(John 6:37) and that "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance"(Romans 2:12).

"We love him, because he first loved us."(1 John 4:19)


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## barryl (Sep 1, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> With the exception of the Jews, why do you believe we can or cannot be saved after the rapture? Using your personal opinion with or without using scripture. Including such things, also, as to when the Holy Spirit will leave the earth in relation to the rapture.


 Psalm 139:8 KJV AV The Holy Spirit is omniscient.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 3, 2014)

barryl said:


> Psalm 139:8 KJV AV The Holy Spirit is omniscient.



So does this mean that after the rapture and during the thousand year reign of satan, the Holy Spirit will still be on earth?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2014)

It will probably hard to leave Heaven to return with Jesus for his 1000 year reign on the Earth. I mean just when you're getting used to it it's back to the earth, granted it will be way much better.
I wonder when sin will end? If during this 1000 year reign with Jesus if people will still sin? Will there be lost souls saved?


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## M80 (Sep 3, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> It will probably hard to leave Heaven to return with Jesus for his 1000 year reign on the Earth. I mean just when you're getting used to it it's back to the earth, granted it will be way much better.
> I wonder when sin will end? If during this 1000 year reign with Jesus if people will still sin? Will there be lost souls saved?



Good question. Still studying and praying over this one. Lot of meat in this talk.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 4, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> It will probably hard to leave Heaven to return with Jesus for his 1000 year reign on the Earth. I mean just when you're getting used to it it's back to the earth, granted it will be way much better.
> I wonder when sin will end? If during this 1000 year reign with Jesus if people will still sin? Will there be lost souls saved?



My opinion is that sin will no longer exist after satan is finally destroyed. I don't believe people will still sin, we will be changed into perfect people, no tears, no sickness,no death, etc. I don't think there will be lost souls to save....I think it will be all finished when earth is returned to it's original state as the garden of eden which was intended by God in the beginning....new heaven and earth.


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## barryl (Sep 4, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> So does this mean that after the rapture and during the thousand year reign of satan, the Holy Spirit will still be on earth?


"the thousand year reign of satan" ? Are you sure that's what you mean?


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## mtnwoman (Sep 4, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is the rapture physical or spiritual? Both Will Jesus return physically? Spiritually
> Who are the dead or sleeping? What does it mean to be caught up?Rapture means caught up. The 'dead' in Christ will rise first and then those who remain (alive on earth will be caught up.
> Has anyone ever been caught up before? I guess in a sense, not physically, but spiritually
> Who are sleeping that will be awakened? Those blinded earlier?*Both*
> ...


 Paul may have been caught up spiritually, but Moses, Elijah were caught up....swing low sweet chariot.


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## M80 (Sep 4, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> My opinion is that sin will no longer exist after satan is finally destroyed. I don't believe people will still sin, we will be changed into perfect people, no tears, no sickness,no death, etc. I don't think there will be lost souls to save....I think it will be all finished when earth is returned to it's original state as the garden of eden which was intended by God in the beginning....new heaven and earth.



During the thousand year reign Satan will be bound. After the thousand years he will be loosed for a little season.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 4, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Good question. Still studying and praying over this one. Lot of meat in this talk.



Research of these names may help. Margaret McDonald, a fifteen-year-old girl living in Scotland & John Darby.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 4, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> During the thousand year reign Satan will be bound. After the thousand years he will be loosed for a little season.



Will sin return? If it does then wouldn't salvation?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 4, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Paul may have been caught up spiritually, but Moses, Elijah were caught up....swing low sweet chariot.



 Will Jesus return physically? Spiritually

Why would Jesus return spiritually to gather saints physically?
I've always been taught Jesus would return the same way he left meaning in a physical body and the saints will be called up in the same manner.

Now I'm not really sure about all of this physical vs spiritual resurrections and being caught up as being physical or spiritual.
Kinda getting away from your original question but with Jesus returning to the earth to reign and Satan being imprisoned it gets confusing. Will Satan be physically  imprisoned or cast into the lake of fire? 
I guess it's possible Satan will have a human entity/being in the form of the antichrist. The unholy trinity of Satan, antichrist, & false prophet.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 5, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Will Jesus return physically? Spiritually



1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh , but made alive in the spirit.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 5, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh , but made alive in the spirit.



For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

For the Messiah also suffered for sins once for all, an innocent person for the guilty, so that he could bring you to God. He was put to death in a mortal body but was brought to life by the Spirit,

This is true because Christ suffered for our sins once. He was an innocent person, but he suffered for guilty people so that he could bring you to God. His body was put to death, but he was brought to life through his spirit.

Now I do agree that he went somewhere as a spirit when he died but he was physically resurrected. Now when he returns he will come as he went. It could be that he will be in a body when he returns  just for show as you believe his physical resurrection was.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 5, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Now I do agree that he went somewhere as a spirit when he died but he was physically resurrected. Now when he returns he will come as he went. It could be that he will be in a body when he returns  just for show as you believe his physical resurrection was.




I believe it was told He would return in like manner. What does this mean? I believe it is the manner in which he was taken up in a cloud, Christ had said , they would see Him coming in the clouds. I believe the physical manner is forcing an unintended circumstance.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 5, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I believe it was told He would return in like manner. What does this mean? I believe it is the manner in which he was taken up in a cloud, Christ had said , they would see Him coming in the clouds. I believe the physical manner is forcing an unintended circumstance.



Perhaps you are right but if he is returning in the future to reign for 1000 years with newly resurrected bodies then I would assume Jesus would be in a body too. If souls are being save, after Jesus returns if in the future then those souls might would need to be in a body.
Now it is possible that Jesus will reign for 1000 years as a spirit if he can't or won't be coming in the body he left in, if he did leave in a body. If he in fact left as only a spirit then I would assume he will return as just a spirit.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 5, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Perhaps you are right but if he is returning in the future to reign for 1000 years with newly resurrected bodies then I would assume Jesus would be in a body too. If souls are being save, after Jesus returns if in the future then those souls might would need to be in a body.
> Now it is possible that Jesus will reign for 1000 years as a spirit if he can't or won't be coming in the body he left in, if he did leave in a body. If he in fact left as only a spirit then I would assume he will return as just a spirit.



That's all very confusing to me, I don't think your answer will be found in scripture, maybe some of the left behind books have your answer .


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 5, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> That's all very confusing to me, I don't think your answer will be found in scripture, maybe some of the left behind books have your answer .



Rev. 1:7 'Look he is coming with the clouds and EVERY eye WILL see him, even those who pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him so shall it be Amen.

When Jesus returned in 70AD, did he return physically or spiritually? Why the need of a spiritual return of Jesus if Jesus is a part of the Triune God? Meaning the Holy Spirit was already here. 
If Jesus didn't or won't return physically then what was the point or what will be the point of his return?
Why not call up or gather souls spiritually from Heaven instead of returning? 
If Jesus returned only spiritually was this spirit different from God's spirit?


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## hobbs27 (Sep 7, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Rev. 1:7 'Look he is coming with the clouds and EVERY eye WILL see him, even those who pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him so shall it be Amen.



I thought that was substantial evidence in His early return---I mean are the Romans soldiers that pierced him still alive today? 



Artfuldodger said:


> When Jesus returned in 70AD, did he return physically or spiritually? Why the need of a spiritual return of Jesus if Jesus is a part of the Triune God? Meaning the Holy Spirit was already here.
> If Jesus didn't or won't return physically then what was the point or what will be the point of his return?
> Why not call up or gather souls spiritually from Heaven instead of returning?
> If Jesus returned only spiritually was this spirit different from God's spirit?



I think spiritual, we have a description of how Jesus appeared to John, His appearence had changed. Why did He come?  He brought salvation. The Holy spirit may draw people to salvation, but Jesus is the mediator between us and the Father which is the judge. The resurrection was just a small part of His return to claim the OT saints that were under the punishment of Adams sin and death. A death we dont have to face because we have life eternal. 

He also came back to rule His never ending kingdom. He was and is in the midst of the church standing at the door and knocks that any man that hears Him will open the door and let Him in.

Sorry if that got off topic... But Christ was God in the flesh and at His ascension He went to the most holy place with the Father. Jesus didn't sin but His flesh took on our sin, so much that the Father forsake Him, He must have shed that filthy flesh somewhere before entering the most holy place.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 15, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Mr Art, what I mean is, can folks come to salvation after the rapture. For example say my neighbor is an unbeliever when the rapture comes, is it possible for them to be saved or is it too late? I know, at least from what I understand, that there will be witnesses left to lead the blinded Jews into salvation, but will someone who is not saved, gentiles specifically, is there hope for salvation for them?  Hope that clarifies it a little more...



Ma'am I'll give it my best shot.  In short yes.  There's nothing I'm aware of in Revelation that says otherwise, while there's quite a few verses that support it.  I may be wrong, but I think people will have the opportunity up until the Great White Throne Judgement.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 15, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Ma'am I'll give it my best shot.  In short yes.  There's nothing I'm aware of in Revelation that says otherwise, while there's quite a few verses that support it.  I may be wrong, but I think people will have the opportunity up until the Great White Throne Judgement.



I can say I never believed that before.  And even though, personally speaking, there must be a reason that Christ will come back and reign for a thousand years. I've always believed that the Jews were blinded for that time, now I'm wondering because 'we' (gentiles) were grafted into the vine, have some of us(gentiles) been temporarily blinded also? and will also come to salvation? It's not that I'm trying to get away from my 'roots', because I came to salvation on those roots, but even in my life I have experienced mercy, grace, and deliverance(that I don't in anyway deserve) and see each and every day thru bible study the understanding of the boundless mercy of our God through our belief in Christ.

Hope that makes sense.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 15, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Will Jesus return physically? Spiritually Spiritually
> 
> Why would Jesus return spiritually to gather saints physically? *Because they were blinded in the first place?*
> I've always been taught Jesus would return the same way he left meaning in a physical body and the saints will be called up in the same manner. *I believe Christ left in a spiritual way. We will be caught up (being physically, if we are still alive at the time) the dead in Christ shall rise first in mostly(?) a spiritual manner*
> ...


 There is no trinity in satan but I do believe that satan will return in a physical form ie in possession of a physical being, a ruler, smart,handsome charismatic person, but a deceiver, liar....trying to enforce his legion to destroy Christ, which won't happen for those of us who believe in God and His Son Jesus.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 15, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I thought that was substantial evidence in His early return---I mean are the Romans soldiers that pierced him still alive today? *I debate daily on those that would still pierce Christ, so yes.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 He shed that flesh in John....for God so loved the world, not only the Jews, but the rest of us, too.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 16, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> He shed that flesh in John....for God so loved the world, not only the Jews, but the rest of us, too.



Galations 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 

Acts 10:34 
Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,

 IMO
Jesus is not coming back to bring salvation to the Jew, it's not biblical. He has died on the cross and been resurrected once and for all one time. He has brought salvation to the world, if anyone claiming to be a Jew today wants to be saved they have the same opportunity as any of us Gentiles. Repent and be baptized was preached to the Jew first.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 16, 2014)

barryl said:


> "the thousand year reign of satan" ? Are you sure that's what you mean?


 Thanks, you're right, not what I meant...satan unleashed for a time/season.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 16, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Galations 3:28
> There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  *I agree.*
> 
> Acts 10:34
> ...



IMO, I'm not so sure the Jews aren't still blinded. As far as I can understand it, the Jews will hide out in Petra, where many churches have stashed/hidden the NT for the Jews to come to the 'light'....after the rapture.  I think just like Saul/Paul got his proof and the scales removed from his eyes in a shorter time. I do believe any Jew can accept Christ at any time and as far as we can 'see' we don't understand why they still don't get it....but our understanding is not always quite so cut and dry, nor clear.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 16, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> IMO, I'm not so sure the Jews aren't still blinded. As far as I can understand it, the Jews will hide out in Petra, where many churches have stashed/hidden the NT for the Jews to come to the 'light'....after the rapture.  I think just like Saul/Paul got his proof and the scales removed from his eyes in a shorter time. I do believe any Jew can accept Christ at any time and as far as we can 'see' we don't understand why they still don't get it....but our understanding is not always quite so cut and dry, nor clear.



But none of this opinion is biblical ...is it?


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## hobbs27 (Sep 16, 2014)

The thousand year reign is not about here on earth.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 16, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> But none of this opinion is biblical ...is it?



From what I glean in revelations, yes, it is.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 17, 2014)

Romans 9
 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 
2 That I have great heaviness and continually sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites


Paul was in great sorrow for his Jewish kin, for they were rejecting Christ and would face the judgement of God, guilty and without a mediator......If they were all to be saved why did he anguish so, that He Himself would give up eternal life for them?

Dispensationalist are always confused about scripture because their belief is not biblical.


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## ryanh487 (Sep 17, 2014)

There is no secret rapture.  The Bible tells us that at Christ's second coming, the dead in Christ will rise first, and then the living in Christ, and all will be transformed and glorified.  It also says that the sky will peel back like a scroll and the elements will melt with fervent heat.  Any living thing that is not glorified will be destroyed by the second coming.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 17, 2014)

Mr Hobbs, this is where I get 1000 yr reign, well one place.
It too seems to refer to tribulation...I do need to study Rev. more for I have focused mostly and speak mostly of the gospel.

Rev.20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 17, 2014)

Mtn woman... I know revelation 20 very well and its interpretation is dependent upon many other parts of the bible....this is where people mess it up so much. Watch the video of Gary DeMar above explain the 1000 year reign, and the fact that the reign is in heaven not on earth.

BTW, when you study and understand Revelation better, you will realize it is the Gospel..more so to us than Matt, Mark, Luke, and John. It's is the unveiling of Jesus Christ and His Kingdom and was written of this to shortly come to pass( Rev. 1.1) and is written to the seven churches of John's time...which John was living in the tribulation way back then.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 17, 2014)

Gary Demar believes Jesus WILL reign over the Earth for 1000 years but he'll do it from Heaven. He actually believes Jesus is already in his 1000 year reign. I don't know when he believed it started, possibly upon his resurrection which would also be the start of Satan's reign ending or either 70AD. Satan didn't rule the earth from the earth so it is possible that Jesus could rule the earth as a Spirit.
Gary Demar points out that Revelation doesn't say Jesus ruled the earth from the earth.

Now as I said earlier Jesus might be ruling or gonna rule for 1000 years as a spirit but Rev. 1:7 says every eye will see him. If he did come in 70AD it must have been physical.

Rev. 1:7 'Look he is coming with the clouds and EVERY eye WILL see him, even those who pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him so shall it be Amen.

Article by Gary Demar:

http://americanvision.org/5141/is-jesus-going-to-reign-on-earth/


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## hobbs27 (Sep 17, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Gary Demar believes Jesus WILL reign over the Earth for 1000 years but he'll do it from Heaven. He actually believes Jesus is already in his 1000 year reign. I don't know when he believed it started, possibly upon his resurrection which would also be the start of Satan's reign ending or either 70AD. Satan didn't rule the earth from the earth so it is possible that Jesus could rule the earth as a Spirit.
> Gary Demar points out that Revelation doesn't say Jesus ruled the earth from the earth.
> 
> Now as I said earlier Jesus might be ruling or gonna rule for 1000 years as a spirit but Rev. 1:7 says every eye will see him. If he did come in 70AD it must have been physical.
> ...



Very good link art. I hope anyone that believes in the dispensationalist view here will take a little time to read . Very good.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 17, 2014)

I read from the link. Thanks for posting it. I'll have to read it several more times, I suppose. 

So once the rapture comes, we're gone, up out of here, never to return and that's it? So there will be no chance of salvation after the rapture, because then it is over? Or what? Just anything to confuse me.....lol. Not really, I just need more bible study.  satan you done knocked me down, but you didn't knock me out....lol. Ding ding....round 2.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 18, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> I read from the link. Thanks for posting it. I'll have to read it several more times, I suppose.
> 
> So once the rapture comes, we're gone, up out of here, never to return and that's it?



Would you consider a free online book to read along with your bible? Just scroll to bottom of page and you will see the free online book on left side.   http://raptureless.com/


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 18, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> I read from the link. Thanks for posting it. I'll have to read it several more times, I suppose.
> 
> So once the rapture comes, we're gone, up out of here, never to return and that's it? So there will be no chance of salvation after the rapture, because then it is over? Or what? Just anything to confuse me.....lol. Not really, I just need more bible study.  satan you done knocked me down, but you didn't knock me out....lol. Ding ding....round 2.



I'm still learning myself. Did you see Skeester's responce on another thread concerning the topic of Revelations?


Quote from Skeester:
First of all who is Revelations written to? It's not written to "or about" the Body of Christ, the one true Church that is here on this earth right now during the dispensation of the Grace of God. The body of Christ was a mystery that was hidden and revealed by Jesus Christ by revelation to the Apostle Paul. The Revelation given by John is a prophecy so stated in Rev 1:3. It is written to the future kingdom saints after the body of Christ, those saved by the Grace of God are removed from this earth for the Body of Christ is not subject to the wrath of God: 1 Thess 1:10, 1 Corinthians 15.

Who are the Kingdom saints? The Kingdom of heaven of here on earth was promised to Israel. The Kingdom gospel that was given to the 12 Apostles was rejected by Israel in the book of Acts and Israel was set aside in unbelief. He came unto his own and his own received him not. John 1:11, Acts 28:28, Romans 9, 10, 11

After the Body of Christ is taken out of this world, God will again take up his promises to the nation of Israel. This will be accomplished at the end of the tribulation period when He saves Israel and takes up his throne as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

The Apostle John is writing to the circumcision or jews. There was an agreement at the mid Acts counsel that the Apostle Paul was to go to the Gentiles and the 12 to the circumcision. This is stated also in Galatians 2:9

So the churches mentioned in the first 3 chapters of Revelations deal with future kingdom churches going through the tribulation. During this time, the false church that was left behind at the rapture will still be here. So Jezebel is part of the false church or otherwise known as Babylon and will be destroyed by the Lord at his return.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 18, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm still learning myself. Did you see Skeester's responce on another thread concerning the topic of Revelations?



I did, and I'm really struggling with the flesh to not respond to it , since it wasn't addressed to me and because I'm trying to cast that (Arnold Horshack) demon from myself on this topic. 

I'm patiently waiting on Ronnies biblical response, with that said , I will say there is no such thing as a dispensation of Grace, It is a covenant, the New Covenant.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 18, 2014)

Banjo Picker said:


> The rapture of the church and the second coming of Christ are not the same.the rapture takes place first , 1 Thess. 4:16, 17. Hope this will help you when study about it



Oh, ok.  

And the question was _If paul was reassuring them that Christ had not come yet, why didnt he just say..you know he hasnt come because you have not been physically raptured?

I just cant figure this out, thanks._


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## pileit (Sep 18, 2014)

ryanh487 said:


> There is no secret rapture.  The Bible tells us that at Christ's second coming, the dead in Christ will rise first, and then the living in Christ, and all will be transformed and glorified.  It also says that the sky will peel back like a scroll and the elements will melt with fervent heat.  Any living thing that is not glorified will be destroyed by the second coming.



This


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## NoOne (Sep 19, 2014)

Beloved For the Father’s Sake

by Pastor J. C. O'Hair


Note this statement in Romans 11:28:

“As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes”

Then note what follows:

“ O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!”

As we develop the truth concerning “the salvation of Gentiles”, because of Israel’s unbelief, and the coming salvation of Israel “for the fathers’ sake,” we too shall cry out: “ O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!”

First let us see God’s description of the unsaved Gentiles at the time the risen Christ sent Paul to them.

“This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind. “Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart.” Ephesians 4:17 and 18.

“Because that, when they knew God they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.” “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.” Romans 1:21 and 28.

What hope could there be for such people? They were “by nature the children of wrath:” Ephesians 2:3. They were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, in the world having no hope. Ephesians 2:12. In Romans 10:19 they were called “a foolish nation;” “no people.” Christ on earth said to a Gentile, “it is not meet to give the children’s bread to dogs.” Matthew 15:25 to 27. Think of them; “no people;” “dogs.”

Now let us see what God did to Israel because Israel would not receive Paul’s message to them.

“(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day.” “Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.” Romans 11:8 and 10.

Now some interesting facts:

Way back, about 1900 BC, when the Gentiles were blinded and God gave them up, He called a man by the name of Abram, to leave his country, family and home. Genesis 12:1 to 5. Note God’s Word: “I will make of thee a great nation.” Abram’s wife was Sarah. Note Hebrews 11:11 and 12.

“Through faith also Sarah herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged Him faithful Who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.” The child of Abraham and Sarah was Isaac. From this promised son came Jacob and the nation Israel.

Now note God’s declaration concerning Israel:”

“But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and He that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not, for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.” “For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. Since thou wast precious in My sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life. Fear not: For I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Even every one that is called by My name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.” Isaiah 43:1 and 3 to 7.

“Thus saith the Lord, If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.” Jeremiah 31:37.

“Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for MINE HOLY NAME’S SAKE, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.” “Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord God, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.” Ezekiel 36:22 and 32.

Israel is going to be preserved for God’s holy name’s sake. They are beloved for the fathers’ sake. The fathers were Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Note in Ezekiel 36:22 to 32 what God is going to do for and with Israel for His own holy name’s sake

“For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.” Ezekiel 36:24 to 26.

We might read more than 500 verses from the pens of Israel’s prophets as to Israel’s glorious future.

THE FATHER’S SAKE AND THE FATHERS’ SAKE
God made a covenant with Abraham concerning Israel and Canaan. Genesis 17:8. God confirmed that covenant with His oath when Abraham had placed Isaac on the altar. Genesis 22:16 to 19. The gifts and the calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29, Therefore for the fathers’ sake Israel shall be saved after God’s present reign of grace for Gentiles. And they are going to be saved for the Father’s sake. Ezekiel 36:22.

In this connection note Romans 11:11, 15, and 30:

“I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.” “For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?” “For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief.” Romans 11:11, 15 and 30.

So once again, “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!” Romans 11:33.

Let us go back to the statement concerning Israel in John 12:37 to 41:

“But though He had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on Him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart: that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.” John 12:37 to 41.

“O the depth of the riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!”

When the Gentiles were blinded and in universal idolatry and adultery, alienated from the life of God, the Lord chose Abraham and created Israel for His own glory. God began a new movement on the earth with the nation Israel. By the covenant of circumcision God cut off the rest of the human race. Genesis 17:12 to 16. Acts 7:6 to 12. Israel was selected to reveal God to the heathen.

They miserably failed. God finally set Israel aside. But they will be saved.

“And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.” Ezekiel 37:21 and 22.

In Ezekiel 36, God tells how Israel profaned His name among the heathen. In other Scriptures He tells how Israel rejected and killed God’s prophets.

“But last of all He sent unto them His Son, saying, They will reverence My Son.” “And they caught Him and cast Him out of the vineyard, and slew Him.” Matthew 21:37 and 39.

That Son was their Messiah and King. What did that Son say to them?

“Ye fools and blind.” “Ye blind guides which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.” “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredation of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored?” “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, ye shall not see Me henceforth till ye shall say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.” Matthew 23:17, 24, 33, 38 and 39.

They were truly blind. They rejected their Messiah. He was delivered according to the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God

“Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a Man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders, and signs, which God did by Him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.” Acts 2:22 and 23.

“And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.” Acts 3:17.

Then note Acts 3:25 and 26:

“Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.” Acts 3:25 and 26.

The rest of the story is told in I Thessalonians 2:14 and 16:

“For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews.” “Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost”

God again sent blindness upon Israel. Romans 11:8. They have been spiritually blind since then, scattered all over the earth. Then note God’s revealed secret

“For I would not brethren that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.” Romans 11:25 and 26.

Israel’s blindness and unbelief meant reconciliation, salvation, grace and mercy for Gentiles. Romans 11:15, 11 and 30.

We have learned that when the Gentiles were blinded and God gave them up, Israel was given the place of honor and privilege. And then when Israel was blinded and set aside (temporarily) God’s reign of grace for Gentiles was inaugurated. For about 1900 years we have been receiving Divine mercy. In the first chapter of Romans we learn of the rejection of the Gentiles. In the eleventh chapter we learn of the rejection of Israel.

FOR OUR SAKES AND FOR CHRIST’S SAKE
Note Ephesians 4:32:

“And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God FOR CHRIST’S SAKE hath forgiven you.”

Why are Gentiles forgiven all their sins? FOR CHRIST’S SAKE. Why will Israel yet be forgiven, saved and blessed? For Jehovah’s sake. Ezekiel 36:22 and 32. And also for the fathers’ sake. Romans 11:28. Why were the rulers of Israel enemies of the gospel when Paul preached to them? For the Gentiles’ sake. Romans 11:28.

The disobedience, unbelief, and blindness of Israel is told in the story of Barjesus, Paulus, and Barnabas in Acts 13:6 to 12: Let us read this interesting story

“And when they had gone through the isle into Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus: Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the Word of God. But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. Then Saul, (who also is called Paul), filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand. Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.” Acts 13:6 to 12.

Barjesus means “the child of Jehovah the Saviour.” Israel was God’s “Barjesus.” Barjesus sought to turn the Gentile away from faith in Israel’s Messiah. Saul was chosen to turn Gentiles to Israel’s Messiah. For Barjesus’ disobedience God’s judgment fell upon him, “blindness for a season.” This Divine judgment caused Paulus to believe and be saved. “Saul” became .”Paul” to declare the truth of Romans 11:25 and 26. A blindness in part to Israel until God ends His dealings with the Gentiles.

The Jews are scattered among all the nations of the earth in spiritual blindness “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” Luke 21:24.

The times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled. The fulness of the Gentiles will come in. And let all Gentiles remember Romans 11:21.

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Many, many so-called Christian preachers today are as blind as Israel. Even the great majority of the saved ones are not only ignorant of Romans 11:25 and 26 but wholly ignorant of God’s eternal purpose, under the dispensation of grace, during this parenthetical period while the Messianic kingdom is in abeyance. Ephesians 3:1 to 11.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 19, 2014)

The blindness, election, and what God does for his sake is interesting! I've never heard of God offering salvation to the Gentiles before the cross, Gentiles being blinded for alienation from God at the time of God's covenant with Abraham. I picked up the blinding of the Jews for alienation and salvation being offered to Gentiles. I didn't know the salvation offering went Gentiles, Jews, Gentiles, Jews.


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## formula1 (Sep 19, 2014)

*Re:*



mtnwoman said:


> With the exception of the Jews, why do you believe we can or cannot be saved after the rapture? Using your personal opinion with or without using scripture. Including such things, also, as to when the Holy Spirit will leave the earth in relation to the rapture.



Hi Annie:

Haven't talked to you in awhile but this thread has gone all over the place but I will give you my opinion.  I really don't think these things can be known completely.

I don't believe there is a rapture in the sense that most describe therefore it follows that there is not some future time or future event where some will have an opportunity to be saved, even Jews.  I believe today is the day of salvation and we don't need to miss it. Even for Jews, many whom I know are turning to Jesus already, this is true.

It is sometimes hard for us to accept that some we know and love might not have some other 'over there' opportunity for Christ.  But this is a false teaching in my view that causes folks who know Christ to hold back on sharing Him.  I believe in this sense it is satanic deception at it's finest.

Today Satan is bound in every believers life.  Yet he is still 'loose enough' to be prince and power of the world and can buffet us and use his influence through the world to deceive us.  Oh, it's so important to be in fellowship with believers, to pray and to study God's word, lest we fall into satan's trap. Satan's end is very near IMHO and he has already lost in those who follow Christ. Even death has no power over us! 

I will say that the Gospel will be preached as a witness to the whole world and then the end will come, where those dead in Christ will rise and those alive in Christ will go to be with Him.  And the rest will be judged.

There, no scripture!  But I will reference this one as it matters:  Romans 10:9-13

Let's get busy helping others find Him! How can anyone hear unless someone speaks? 

God Bless!


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 19, 2014)

In relation to Romans 10:9-13, I would agree the voice comes before the sheep. In other words we spread God's voice/word/message of Jesus and the believers of this message become sheep.
I don't see the sheep coming before hearing the voice of God.
Now the confusing part for me is sometimes when reading about the sheep in John it appears that the Jews are not sheep and therefore can't here the voice. It appears that the sheep are Gentiles.
Maybe at the time of John but now I believe as Romans 10 says  one only needs to believe.  This can be Jew or Gentile. Jews are being saved every day. Is God opening their eyes a few at a time? Why do this if he's going to save others later?

Galatians 3:26-29
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God's promise to Abraham belongs to you.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 19, 2014)

If this scenario of Jews being saved after a rapture and the covenant of Grace is finished is true. Wouldn't it be in the best interest of any left behinds to just convert to Judaism?  
 If that's not possible because they aren't blood related to Jews, then how pure does the genealogy have to be? Since all Jewish Geneological records were destroyed in 66-72 ad how would a Jew know if they were Jewish enough? Most Jews in Israel today are of European descent..are they qualified?

 I'll stick to my blood relation to Christ while y'all hash out this weird dream by a teenage girl that has been turned into a western world Christian debacle by Mr.Darby and the likes of Schofield.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 19, 2014)

formula1 said:


> Hi Annie:
> 
> Haven't talked to you in awhile but this thread has gone all over the place but I will give you my opinion.  I really don't think these things can be known completely.
> 
> ...



OMGosh, thank you so much. I believe exactly this, too. It was a debate between me and a friend that started this thread. I believe the time, too, is at hand.  I don't know how/when the rest fits, but I, too, believe as you do.  The rest is in God's hands and in His time, however it is puzzled together.

Blessings!!


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## hawglips (Oct 7, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Mr Art, what I mean is, can folks come to salvation after the rapture. For example say my neighbor is an unbeliever when the rapture comes, is it possible for them to be saved or is it too late? I know, at least from what I understand, that there will be witnesses left to lead the blinded Jews into salvation, but will someone who is not saved, gentiles specifically, is there hope for salvation for them?  Hope that clarifies it a little more...



I think a just God will give everyone the chance to choose Him and Eternal Life.  So many billions have died and will die without that chance.  I believe He has made arrangements for all to have that chance.


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Oct 7, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Research of these names may help. Margaret McDonald, a fifteen-year-old girl living in Scotland & John Darby.


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