# Is Baptism a requirement for salvation?



## pnome

A poll for mtnwoman.


Is water baptism required for salvation, or does the blood of the cross do it all?



Got no idea myself, this one's for you believers.


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## crackerdave

You _know_ how I voted! "Too close to call!!!!" 100% no,with one result in!


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## centerpin fan

pnome said:


> Got no idea myself, this one's for you believers.



That's OK.  Your avatar is a good contribution to the thread.


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## WTM45

pnome said:


> Got no idea myself...



That should be an option too.


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## Jeff Phillips

No, it is not a requirement.

Public profession of faith that Jesus is the Son of God and repent of your sins to join the Father in Heaven.

Baptism is one form of the public profession of faith.


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## Huntinfool

It is a command.  It is a requirement for followers of Christ.  But it, in now way determines salvation.

"If you love me, you will follow my commands."

We do it out of obedience.


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## WTM45

Jeff Phillips said:


> Public profession of faith that Jesus is the Son of God and repent of your sins to join the Father in Heaven.



So, if you are critically hit in the throat, dying fast, can't talk, laying on a battlefield, the only one around is a Chaplain who is assisting you...it's just too bad?
"Blink twice for 'I repent' son.  Blink twice."


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## BeenHuntn

Huntinfool said:


> It is a command.  It is a requirement for followers of Christ.  But it, in now way determines salvation.
> 
> "If you love me, you will follow my commands."
> 
> We do it out of obedience.



where have you been during the whole water vs blood debate?  coulda used you as the cleanup hitter...


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## Madman

WTM45 said:


> So, if you are critically hit in the throat, dying fast, can't talk, laying on a battlefield, the only one around is a Chaplain who is assisting you...it's just too bad?
> "Blink twice for 'I repent' son.  Blink twice."



I am not concerned about the straw man you set up.  I am concerned about those who can profess and choose not to or those who think they can play today and confess tomorrow.  They may find themselves "critically hit in the throat, dying fast, can't talk, laying on a battlefield." 

Remember, This is the day of your salvation you have heard the truth and will be without excuse.

"Every knee will bow and every tongue confess..."

Is Baptism necessary?  NO
But remember what Tertullian said.. “he who proclaims Christ yet refuses to be baptized is of questionable faith.”


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## BANDERSNATCH

Pnome,

You must be bored stiff today??!!!   

DJ


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## pnome

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Pnome,
> 
> You must be bored stiff today??!!!
> 
> DJ



Just trying to help!


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## Huntinfool

BeenHuntn said:


> where have you been during the whole water vs blood debate?  coulda used you as the cleanup hitter...



It's just been beaten to death.  You can't convince somebody who is already convinced man.


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## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> You can't convince somebody who is already convinced man.



I dunno.  I changed my position on baptism.  For many years, I would have agreed completely with BH and mtnwoman.


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## Mako22

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Pnome,
> 
> You must be bored stiff today??!!!
> 
> DJ



I love your avatar.


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## BANDERSNATCH

Woodsman69 said:


> I love your avatar.




I'm sure others on here need to subscribe!   

No offense, Ambush, P, WTM, Million Dollar.   lol


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## Huntinfool

centerpin fan said:


> I dunno.  I changed my position on baptism.  For many years, I would have agreed completely with BH and mtnwoman.



Ok....let me re-phrase.  I'm too lazy to try to convince you today.  It's gonna snow....RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> I dunno.  I changed my position on baptism.  For many years, I would have agreed completely with BH and mtnwoman.



"being in agreement with BH... $.00000001.  

being in agreement with the Word of God... priceless...."


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## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> "being in agreement with BH... $.00000001.
> 
> being in agreement with the Word of God... priceless...."



Can't argue with that.


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## Ronnie T

So does this poll mean that a person can make a personal decision to not submit to New Testament baptism and that God will accept them in their refusal??????????????

I'm afraid God will not.


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## Tim L

Yes...read Acts 2:38 and the verses that precede it....Peter is preaching to the gentiles; they like what they hear, and want to become followers of christ....They ask him point blank what must they do...Now, think for a moment, Peter did not speak in riddles, he was a simple blunt man who said what he thought in easy to understand lanquage.

Anyway, he told them to repent AND TO BE BAPTIZED FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS......Pretty straightforward and easy to understand and for hundreds of years, people didn' think it necessary to as if they had to be baptized to be saved.  But the world has a way of confusing the truth..

Now a person can play biblical simon says and take something out of context such as what about the theive on the cross or what about John 3:16 and so on and on.....or worse they quote denomenational dogma....but we shouldn't get caught up picking and choosing what parts of the bible we believe, don't believe or in the case of christian baptism, try to run away from...IT ALL APPLIES..

Peter said point blank you have to be baptized; thats good enough for me.....


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## WTM45

Madman said:


> I am not concerned about the straw man you set up.  I am concerned about those who can profess and choose not to or those who think they can play today and confess tomorrow.  They may find themselves "critically hit in the throat, dying fast, can't talk, laying on a battlefield."
> 
> Remember, This is the day of your salvation you have heard the truth and will be without excuse.
> 
> "Every knee will bow and every tongue confess..."
> 
> Is Baptism necessary?  NO
> But remember what Tertullian said.. “he who proclaims Christ yet refuses to be baptized is of questionable faith.”



Then knock that straw man down.
No one can simply "Profess and choose" or "confess" something they simply can not understand or get their mind around.
I don't care how much a person wishes to "protect their skin" or "save" themselves from eternal ****ation, if they do not truly subscribe to the whole of it they can not fake it.
If it is true.
Is it so hard to take the simple position of "I don't know?"


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## mtnwoman

pnome said:


> Just trying to help!



Thanks!! I appreciate you setting this up!


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## Madman

WTM45 said:


> I don't care how much a person wishes to "protect their skin" or "save" themselves from eternal ****ation, it they do not truly subscribe to the whole of it they can not fake it.
> If it is true.
> Is it so hard to take the simple position of "I don't know?"



We are in 100% agreement.  You can not fake it.  "Believe and be baptized" or don't.  You don't believe and therefore don't know.  I believe and do know.   Unless you accept the free gift of salvation you will never know, in this life anyway.

The straw man was knocked down before you pushed the submitt button.


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## Huntinfool

Ronnie T said:


> So does this poll mean that a person can make a personal decision to not submit to New Testament baptism and that God will accept them in their refusal??????????????
> 
> I'm afraid God will not.




No....that is not what the thread says.  It asks is baptism required to be saved.

It is required OF the saved.


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## earl

Looks like a certain percentage of ya'll will be joining me . Now that's scary.


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## Huntinfool

WTM45 said:


> No one can simply "Profess and choose" or "confess" something they simply can not understand or get their mind around.




I don't understand God....not by a long shot.  But I both profess him and choose him.


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## creation's_cause

If, after you have made a (type of) salvation decision/prayer, but you also make a willful, disobedient decision not to be Baptized, I would counsel, you are not saved.  The whole battle is between truth and a lie, obedience and disobedience, please don't fall for the LIE!  If for some reason you are not able to be Baptized before you pass away after being Saved, I am more than certain, based on scripture, that our Father in Heaven will not in any way keep you from entering into his presence.  In His presence, there is Peace!


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## mtnwoman

Madman said:


> But remember what Tertullian said.. “he who proclaims Christ yet refuses to be baptized is of questionable faith.”



That's possible, I agree.

God still knows our heart....the public could judge that it's questionable faith but that's of the flesh...no public display of faith.

I've never known anyone who has refused baptism. Most people want to be baptized


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## BANDERSNATCH

Does baptizing as a baby or young child count?


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## mtnwoman

Huntinfool said:


> It is required OF the saved.



Amen!


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## BANDERSNATCH

Huntinfool said:


> No....that is not what the thread says.  It asks is baptistm required to be saved.
> 
> It is required OF the saved.



X2        As soon as you can get it done....but, if you're like the dude on the cross, and don't have time, then you're still good to go!


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## Jeff Phillips

creation's_cause said:


> If, after you have made a (type of) salvation decision/prayer, but you also make a willful, disobedient decision not to be Baptized, I would counsel, you are not saved.  The whole battle is between truth and a lie, obedience and disobedience, please don't fall for the LIE!  If for some reason you are not able to be Baptized before you pass away after being Saved, I am more than certain, based on scripture, that our Father in Heaven will not in any way keep you from entering into his presence.  In His presence, there is Peace!



I agree!

Baptisim is a step along the walk of a Christian life, but salvation takes place the instant of acceptance of Christ.


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## crackerdave

Rouster said:


> Yes...read Acts 2:38 and the verses that precede it....Peter is preaching to the gentiles; they like what they hear, and want to become followers of christ....They ask him point blank what must they do...Now, think for a moment, Peter did not speak in riddles, he was a simple blunt man who said what he thought in easy to understand lanquage.
> 
> Anyway, he told them to repent AND TO BE BAPTIZED FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS......Pretty straightforward and easy to understand and for hundreds of years, people didn' think it necessary to as if they had to be baptized to be saved.  But the world has a way of confusing the truth..
> 
> Now a person can play biblical simon says and take something out of context such as what about the theive on the cross or what about John 3:16 and so on and on.....or worse they quote denomenational dogma....but we shouldn't get caught up picking and choosing what parts of the bible we believe, don't believe or in the case of christian baptism, try to run away from...IT ALL APPLIES..
> 
> Peter said point blank you have to be baptized; thats good enough for me.....



Read the verses in context,brother.A big crowd of folks had just been baptized by the Holy Spirit - it appeared like "tongues of fire." Do you think we should be baptized with fire? Peter was telling them to repent and accept the Holy Spirit.There wasn't any sprinklin' or dunkin' goin' on then.
The day Jesus began His ministry,He allowed John to dunk Him in the river - so I'd say He _did_ set an example.


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## Ronnie T

I just tried to vote "NO" a second time, but it wouldn't let me.


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## BANDERSNATCH

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Does baptizing as a baby or young child count?



btt        no takers?????


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## Lead Poison

Without question, water baptism is _not_ required for salvation.

Only the acceptance of Christ's shed blood on Calvary's cross is required. 

Amen and amen.


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## Lead Poison

BANDERSNATCH said:


> btt        no takers?????



It gives the baby a bath.


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## rjcruiser

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!


That is both my answer and my response to the thread...in other words...not this thread again.  

This has already been beaten to death, but I'll add this.  Huntinfool has it down right.


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## crackerdave

I used to get kinda aggravated about all the dead horse beatin's,until I finally realized just how fast our forum is growing and how few of the new folks are willing to go back and read/search for their question before posting another thread about that pore ol' hoss. I did the same thing when I joined in March '07 - just dove in headfirst,without checkin' to see how deep the water was!


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## Ronnie T

crackerdave said:


> I used to get kinda aggravated about all the dead horse beatin's,until I finally realized just how fast our forum is growing and how few of the new folks are willing to go back and read/search for their question before posting another thread about that pore ol' hoss. I did the same thing when I joined in March '07 - just dove in headfirst,without checkin' to see how deep the water was!



The water's deep and cold.  It snowed in N. Fla today.


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## mtnwoman

I know these threads go on and on, but with new people posting and new lurkers lurking, somebody might get something they need.
That's why pastors keep preachin' the gospel over and over and over again, not because the older folks don't get it...(and they might not) but because we always have new blood in our groups....pun intended.


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## Six million dollar ham

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Pnome,
> 
> You must be bored stiff today??!!!
> 
> DJ



Good job addressing the topic.


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> The water's deep and cold.  It snowed in N. Fla today.



It's still snowing here....yikes, wonder if I can get to work tomorrow...I hope not...LOL


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## Diogenes

Madman observes: “But remember what Tertullian said.. “he who proclaims Christ yet refuses to be baptized is of questionable faith.”  Gotta love Tertullian.  He’s one of my post-NT heroes.  Really.  But, since I was Baptized, well before I had any idea what was going on, does that mean that my faith is therefore unquestionable?

Ronnie T: “So does this poll mean that a person can make a personal decision to not submit to New Testament baptism and that God will accept them in their refusal??????????????

I'm afraid God will not.”     Yikes!  Yet another man who knows with certainty what God will or will not do.  


Rouster: “he told them to repent AND TO BE BAPTIZED FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS......Pretty straightforward and easy to understand and for hundreds of years, people didn' think it necessary to as if they had to be baptized to be saved. But the world has a way of confusing the truth.”    No . . . Really . . . the truth is not confusing at all . . . I have my Baptismal Certificate right here . . . and as to my sins, well, REMISSION is such a harsh word . . . but I’m already pardoned, you see, just like you guys, and look forward only to a life of frivolity and instant forgiveness ever after . . . 

Madman, again, “You don't believe and therefore don't know. I believe and do know. Unless you accept the free gift of salvation you will never know, in this life anyway.”   Um, what don’t I know?  I mean, like I said, I was Baptized – it says it right here.  So how did your personal Baptism grant you some knowing that mine forgot to convey?  

Huntinfool clarifies things by stating that Baptism is required of the saved, and that clears things up completely.  So I’m saved, by having been Baptized.  But then clarifies further: “I don't understand God....not by a long shot.”   But wait a second – you just said that God requires something of the Saved – namely Baptism – so clearly you do understand God, and what He requires.  Right?  Can one not understand God, but still know exactly what he wants down to the most arcane ritual?

“Most people want to be baptized”  Yikes.  Try that one out in Asia, where most people live, and let us know how that ‘poll’ sorts out . . .

So help me out here folks – I have a Certificate that says I was Baptized, but I still think that God is a crock of Onion Soup in Lichtenstein.  How can that be?


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## Israel

I f we are saved by the obedience of Christ (particularly his obedience to death), will his life still manifest through the believer as obedience?


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## Big7

Here we go again...


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## Diogenes

Not a worry, Big7.  The only folks who are not Saved seem to be the ones who forgot to bathe in water, and for my part that seems like something I can support . . .


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## crackerdave

mtnwoman said:


> I know these threads go on and on, but with new people posting and new lurkers lurking, somebody might get something they need.
> That's why pastors keep preachin' the gospel over and over and over again, not because the older folks don't get it...(and they might not) but because we always have new blood in our groups....pun intended.



Amen,Annie -that's what it's all about!


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## tell sackett

I voted no. HF, good posts. I have successfully stayed out of the recent threads about this(although it's made me grind my teeth at times), but I do have a quick question: Does anyone know of an instance where a person has made what you believe to be a true, genuine profession of faith, and then refused baptism?


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## gtparts

crackerdave said:


> Read the verses in context,brother.A big crowd of folks had just been baptized by the Holy Spirit - it appeared like "tongues of fire." Do you think we should be baptized with fire? Peter was telling them to repent and accept the Holy Spirit.There wasn't any sprinklin' or dunkin' goin' on then.
> The day Jesus began His ministry,He allowed John to dunk Him in the river - so I'd say He _did_ set an example.



The context of Acts 2:38 is indeed clear and the baptism evidenced was not water immersion. The other issue to be considered is the translation of the Greek and quite frankly, after studying the matter for the last few days, it is apparent to me that some translations are not as clear as they could or should be. 

The matter is settled in my mind, but I will say this: When you do a thorough search of the scriptures, you will find that repentance and remission (forgiveness) of sin are coupled together repeatedly, most often without any mention of baptism. When Acts 2:38 (in some translations) is compared with other passages, it appears that something is amiss. The inclusion of the word "_baptiso_" in a casual reading appears to be linked with "salvation", but in the original Greek (at least among contemporary Greek scholars and theologians) the listing includes those few things necessary to receive salvation and those things that all are instructed to do upon receiving salvation. Holy Spirit baptism is simultaneous with salvation. Water baptism is instructed, yes, but it being necessary to salvation is not supported throughout scripture. It is matter of post-salvation obedience.

 or, as the LORD leads, but I am a lover, not a fighter.

Peace.


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## crackerdave

WTM45 said:


> That should be an option too.



The poll is for believers.If you're a believer,you oughtta know,imho.


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## WTM45

I'm more than willing to bet a Coke and fries there are many who claim to believe but have no idea.


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## crackerdave

There ya go -tryin' to lure me into gamblin' again!


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## WTM45

Sorry Dave!  Honestly, not tryin' to make a brother stumble!

OK.  The Coke and fries are on my tab!  You can pick pork or chicken for the BBQ sammiches!


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## centerpin fan

gtparts said:


> The context of Acts 2:38 is indeed clear and the baptism evidenced was not water immersion.



I must admit that this is a new one on me.  I spent many years in a Baptist church and never heard that.  I was often told that this baptism was just a symbol, but nobody ever denied it was water baptism.


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## pileit

Diogenes said:


> Madman observes: “But remember what Tertullian said.. “he who proclaims Christ yet refuses to be baptized is of questionable faith.”  Gotta love Tertullian.  He’s one of my post-NT heroes.  Really.  But, since I was Baptized, well before I had any idea what was going on, does that mean that my faith is therefore unquestionable?
> 
> Ronnie T: “So does this poll mean that a person can make a personal decision to not submit to New Testament baptism and that God will accept them in their refusal??????????????
> 
> I'm afraid God will not.”     Yikes!  Yet another man who knows with certainty what God will or will not do.
> 
> 
> Rouster: “he told them to repent AND TO BE BAPTIZED FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS......Pretty straightforward and easy to understand and for hundreds of years, people didn' think it necessary to as if they had to be baptized to be saved. But the world has a way of confusing the truth.”    No . . . Really . . . the truth is not confusing at all . . . I have my Baptismal Certificate right here . . . and as to my sins, well, REMISSION is such a harsh word . . . but I’m already pardoned, you see, just like you guys, and look forward only to a life of frivolity and instant forgiveness ever after . . .
> 
> Madman, again, “You don't believe and therefore don't know. I believe and do know. Unless you accept the free gift of salvation you will never know, in this life anyway.”   Um, what don’t I know?  I mean, like I said, I was Baptized – it says it right here.  So how did your personal Baptism grant you some knowing that mine forgot to convey?
> 
> Huntinfool clarifies things by stating that Baptism is required of the saved, and that clears things up completely.  So I’m saved, by having been Baptized.  But then clarifies further: “I don't understand God....not by a long shot.”   But wait a second – you just said that God requires something of the Saved – namely Baptism – so clearly you do understand God, and what He requires.  Right?  Can one not understand God, but still know exactly what he wants down to the most arcane ritual?
> 
> “Most people want to be baptized”  Yikes.  Try that one out in Asia, where most people live, and let us know how that ‘poll’ sorts out . . .
> 
> So help me out here folks – I have a Certificate that says I was Baptized, but I still think that God is a crock of Onion Soup in Lichtenstein.  How can that be?




Sounds like you are all wet for nothing.


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## Tim L

crackerdave said:


> Read the verses in context,brother.A big crowd of folks had just been baptized by the Holy Spirit - it appeared like "tongues of fire." Do you think we should be baptized with fire? Peter was telling them to repent and accept the Holy Spirit.There wasn't any sprinklin' or dunkin' goin' on then.
> The day Jesus began His ministry,He allowed John to dunk Him in the river - so I'd say He _did_ set an example.



Dave on this one I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.  To me the bible is clear.  We accept Jesus as our savoir (John 3:16), repent and be baptized (Acts 2:38)...(water baptism).....


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## crackerdave

Rouster said:


> Dave on this one I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.  To me the bible is clear.  We accept Jesus as our savoir (John 3:16), repent and be baptized (Acts 2:38)...(water baptism).....



Ok,Ted! But on the occasion being discussed here [Acts 2:38] if you read the preceding verses,you will see they were not baptized with water - or,if they were,it isn't mentioned.
Not a biggie - I know and you know Christians are supposed to be baptized after salvation - as a public profession of faith.


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## mtnwoman

tell sackett said:


> I voted no. HF, good posts. I have successfully stayed out of the recent threads about this(although it's made me grind my teeth at times), but I do have a quick question: Does anyone know of an instance where a person has made what you believe to be a true, genuine profession of faith, and then refused baptism?



I have not.

I know a few who think they're saved because they've been baptized though and they believe that, too. So they believe and are baptized, but when you quiz them they are clueless.

And to another person in this thread, I'm not talking about people in Asia wanting to get baptized, (where did that come from???)...I specifically said that most people who accept Christ as their saviour want to be baptized.


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## mtnwoman

WTM45 said:


> I'm more than willing to bet a Coke and fries there are many who claim to believe but have no idea.



You musta wuz readin' my mind....LOL

I posted before I read this....I agree.


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## sun

Jesus grants some individuals free passes on baptism 
but if He really wants a person to get baptized then He has 
ways to just call them in! 
After all who's going to argue with Jesus?


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## gtparts

centerpin fan said:


> I must admit that this is a new one on me.  I spent many years in a Baptist church and never heard that.  I was often told that this baptism was just a symbol, but nobody ever denied it was water baptism.



Read the complete 2nd chapter.  Clearly there are two "baptisms" expressed here. The first is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and is the result of the process we know as salvation. Even this baptism is not salvation, but the confirmation thereof and the fulfillment of Jesus' promise to send the Comforter, the Paraclete. The other baptism (water immersion) is a testimony of that which has already taken place, a public demonstration of a spiritual truth, a confession of faith and a visual illustration of this,....that one has died to self and is risen to newness of life in Jesus Christ. It is commanded of believers......of believers. It is a beautiful, obedient, and significant act of someone who is saved. But, baptism by water does not save. The power to salvation is not present in the water nor in the will of the participant. The power of salvation has always been in and through the sacrificial death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Even the act of accepting the truth of who Jesus is and what He has done in our behalf is not of the individuals will, but by submission to the will of God.

If there is a sticking point for me in Acts 2, it is found in verse 40, not 38.

Acts 2:40 KJV

40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

I can only imagine that Peter meant to "seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven", but that isn't what he wrote.

Peace.


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## centerpin fan

gtparts said:


> Read the complete 2nd chapter.  Clearly there are two "baptisms" expressed here. The first is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and is the result of the process we know as salvation. Even this baptism is not salvation, but the confirmation thereof and the fulfillment of Jesus' promise to send the Comforter, the Paraclete. The other baptism (water immersion) is a testimony of that which has already taken place, a public demonstration of a spiritual truth, a confession of faith and a visual illustration of this,....that one has died to self and is risen to newness of life in Jesus Christ. It is commanded of believers......of believers. It is a beautiful, obedient, and significant act of someone who is saved. But, baptism by water does not save. The power to salvation is not present in the water nor in the will of the participant. The power of salvation has always been in and through the sacrificial death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Even the act of accepting the truth of who Jesus is and what He has done in our behalf is not of the individuals will, but by submission to the will of God.




I just disagree.  I've already explained why in numerous other posts, so I won't repeat them here.


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## BANDERSNATCH

sun said:


> Jesus grants some individuals free passes on baptism
> but if He really wants a person to get baptized then He has
> ways to just call them in!
> After all who's going to argue with Jesus?



Matthew 22:46 - And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions

Looks like they got tired of getting burned in a debate!


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## Ronnie T

gtparts said:


> The context of Acts 2:38 is indeed clear and the baptism evidenced was not water immersion.
> Peace.




Let me at least tell you why I disagree with you on this.

(1).  Back in Acts 1, Jesus had told His apostles that they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit, there in Jerusalem, in just a few days:  4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

(2).  Now a few days later, in Jerusalem, in chapter 2, suddenly, without warning, they received the Holy Spirit with power.  They were truly baptized with the Holy Spirit:
1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

(3).  Next, chapter 2 describes the coming of the Jews to see this amazing thing.
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

(4).  Seeing them there, Peter began teaching them:  14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.

(5).  As Peter ended his time of speaking to them, they asked a question:
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 

(6).  And there it is, the question all pastors and other Christians want to hear.  "What must I do??"
Peter told them that there were two things they still needed to do, and after they did them, the last would be done by God Himself.
Here's the way it went:  “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

(7).  These people needed to repent (they obviously were believers now).
Second, they needed to let themselves be baptized in water (they certainly wouldn't have to "let" themselves be baptized by the Spirit, it would just happen).
Third, after they did the first two, "they would receive the Holy Spirit.

(8).  This turned out to be a great first day:
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 *Then those who gladly received his word were baptized*; and *that day about three thousand souls* were added to them. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship

(9).  Now listen to what Ananias said to Paul well after he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus.
Acts 22:16
And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’
Now you and I both know that water did not wash away Saul's sins.  But it certainly appears that way.  But not actually.  It appears to me that it must be during the baptism that God washes away sins with the blood of His Son.

(10).  Now here's a really good one.  
Watch this now:  Acts 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “*Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed*?”
Now there's a question we could talk about all day.

But let me continue.  The men replied to Paul:  "“We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 

So Paul asked them another question:  "3  “Into what then were you baptized?” 

Their reply:  “Into John’s baptism

Now this is big.  Listen to Paul's response:  4  “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7 Now the men were about twelve in all.

(11).  In verse 5,6,7 above I see that Paul saw to these men being baptized in the name of Christ.
And *after* they were baptized, Paul laid his hands on them so they were baptized with the Holy Spirit.


*Those verses, and many others, are why I believe baptism sits right in the middle of salvation.
That doesn't mean that we aren't all saved by God's grace.  One's willingness to be baptized does not earn his salvation.  But just as the above men, it was something that 'had' to be accomplished.

Otherwise, Paul would have no issues with them.


----------



## centerpin fan

Thanks, Ronnie.  I just didn't have the energy.


----------



## tell sackett

This has got to be one of the toughest horses I've ever seen.


----------



## Madman

pileit said:


> Sounds like you are all wet for nothing.



Yep.  Some just get a much needed bath.


----------



## centerpin fan

tell sackett said:


> This has got to be one of the toughest horses I've ever seen.



Yep!  This is the "energizer bunny" of horses.  It's the horse equivalent of Jason from the "Friday the 13th" movies.  It just won't die.


----------



## centerpin fan

The interest in this subject is pretty amazing.  The recent baptism threads have produced several hundred posts and several thousand views.


----------



## Tim L

centerpin fan said:


> The interest in this subject is pretty amazing.  The recent baptism threads have produced several hundred posts and several thousand views.



Your right about that; the only subject that can rival it in interest and diversity of opinion is speaking in tongues...


----------



## centerpin fan

Rouster said:


> Your right about that; the only subject that can rival it in interest and diversity of opinion is speaking in tongues...



How about this for the ultimate thread:

Did the T-rex on Noah's ark speak in tongues?  And was his baptism merely symbolic?


----------



## tell sackett

Nooooooooo!!!!! Have mercy!


----------



## Tim L

centerpin fan said:


> How about this for the ultimate thread:
> 
> Did the T-rex on Noah's ark speak in tongues?  And was his baptism merely symbolic?



I have often wondered about that T Rex on the ark and how they survived the voyage with at least two T Rexes on board.  But I have to confess, I have never pondered the baptism of a T rex and its consequences.


----------



## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> How about this for the ultimate thread:
> 
> Did the T-rex on Noah's ark speak in tongues?  And was his baptism merely symbolic?




Well, according to Peter, Brother T-rex "WAS" saved by water.......

Oh man, I shouldn't have said that.
Now I'm gonna get it.


----------



## Ronnie T

Rouster said:


> Your right about that; the only subject that can rival it in interest and diversity of opinion is speaking in tongues...




Man don't ya know it.
I would have left this thread behind several days ago, except for one thing.  I'm afraid there are a couple of people who think I believe I am not saved by grace, but rather by my work of baptism.

And that is soooooooooo far from true.


----------



## BeenHuntn

Acts 15

 1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.  (men are adding to the Word of God by commanding circumcision which is a yoke or bondage)

 2When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.  (they needed to go nip in the bud before these men went around spreading this heresy of circumcision being necessary for salvation)

 3And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

 4And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

 5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
(adding religion and bondage to the freedom that comes in Christ)

 6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

 7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. (Peter reconfirms that God saves folks when people hear the Word openly wanting to be saved and BELIEVING)))

 8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; (God knows their hearts, knows they want to believe and put their faith in Christ and gives them the HS!! ad He did them...  there is NO mention of water baptism in here...)

 9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.  (a believer is a believer by their faith in Christ and His blood alone... nothing else necessary!  their hearts are pure thru FAITH)

 10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?  (a yoke, would be adding circumcision to salvation which is a work or something that man needs to do for salvation. circumcision (if necessary for salvation) is a work.  going and getting dunked is a work (if necessary for salvation).  if we go get water baptized after receiving the HS thru faith in Christ it is obedience not a work...)...  an example of "not being able to bear the yoke of a work (water baptism) would be the thief on the cross.  the thief was not physically able to go get water baptized as are many people in this world. commanding water baptism for salvation is bondage and a yoke)

 11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.  (proof after proof that salvation is SOLELY the faith (believing) in the blood of Christ that washes away sins. no mention of water baptism here)

 12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

 13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

 14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

 15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

 16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

 17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.  (men should seek God. seek His Word... not seek water baptism)

 18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

 19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: (turn to God, turn to the Word, put faith in God)

 20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.  (truly repent)

 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

 22Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

 23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

 24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:  (men have gone out and added works to salvation... that you must be circumcised or water baptized, etc subverting their souls... by keeping laws of men instead of truly having faith in the blood of Christ. they did not command to do anything for salvation other than put all faith into Christ and believing)

 25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

 26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

 28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
(HUGE: the HS said, we lay no other burden on you than these necessary things... was water baptism mentioned in here anywhere? no...  what were they commanded to do?  see verse 20: "But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood." (this is basically repentance) IF the HS had commanded any other burden such as water baptism it would have been mentioned here, but it wasnt.)

clearly in this scene, we see men trying to lay additional burdens on other men, such as circumcision.  men are too weak and pathetic to keep burdens or the law. just like the thief on the cross... it was impossible for him to get water baptized.  total proof that 100% of salvation comes from faith in the blood of Christ and not going out and performing some ritual.  yes, we should all go get water baptized once our hearts have become right with God thru faith in the blood and the filling of the HS... but by no means does water baptism have anything to do with receiving the HS or becoming saved...


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> I'm afraid there are a couple of people who think I believe I am not saved by grace, but rather by my work of baptism.
> 
> And that is soooooooooo far from true.




Ditto.


----------



## earl

Do ya'll use a depth finder for your baptismal waters ?


----------



## Tim L

Ronnie T said:


> Man don't ya know it.
> I would have left this thread behind several days ago, except for one thing.  I'm afraid there are a couple of people who think I believe I am not saved by grace, but rather by my work of baptism.
> 
> And that is soooooooooo far from true.



Yep, baptism is a part but only a part...But we have to accept the whole enchalida; we can't pick and choose....But i will say this about this thread, for those of us (and this is just my opinion) that are christian church, church of christ currently or were raised in the christian church or church of christ and still believe in simple New Testament christianity, this thread can be like waving the old red flag in front of a bull....this is the issue where so many "denomenations" today are.....well confused..


----------



## BeenHuntn

*how are people justified?*

in the following verses justification is taught, yet never do we see water baptism being a part of it as being necessary for salvation to occur...  if you're gonna add water baptism as being necessary to justification... you have to consider these verses on justification... which do not mention water ever...  proving that making water baptism necessary to salvation is legalism.

Acts 13:39
And by Him (Jesus) all that believe (faith) are justified (saved) from all things,

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified (saved) by faith (in Christs blood) without the deeds of the law. (no extra deeds necessary or commanded)

Romans 3:30
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify (save) the circumcision (jews) by faith (in Christs blood), and uncircumcision (gentiles) through faith (in Christs blood)

Romans 3:26
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth (faith in the blood of Christ) in Jesus.  27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.  (by what work? no works at all necessary)

Romans 4:24-25 
 24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him (faith in God) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

 25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.  (Jesus was sacrificed for our sins, not baptism)

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith (saved by the blood), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, (saved by the blood only) we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Romans 5:15-31
 15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.  (saved by grace not water)

 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

 17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

 18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.  (we're justified 100% by the blood of Christ)

 19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.  (God justifies... not water or works)

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed (by the blood), but ye are sanctified (made righteous), but ye are justified (saved) in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God  (faith in Jesus saves, not water)

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (no works can save)

Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith,  (we heathens are saved thru faith)

Galatians 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith (faith not water)

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace (adding works to grace nullifies the grace)


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> in the following verses justification is taught, yet never do we see water baptism being a part of it as being necessary for salvation to occur...  if you're gonna add water baptism as being necessary to justification... you have to consider these verses on justification... which do not mention water ever...  proving that making water baptism necessary to salvation is legalism.




BH, you're just ignoring all the verses that _do_ mention baptism and salvation.  That doesn't "prove" anything.


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> BH, you're just ignoring all the verses that _do_ mention baptism and salvation.  That doesn't "prove" anything.



incorrect, again.  to come to a conclusion about something like salvation, i consider all of the verses on that topic.  if i were to go study "good works" i would consider all of the verses dealing with good works and then formulate a conclusion about its teaching, based on what the Scripture is saying...

yall are the ones ignoring all of these clear verses on salvation. 

just like the sign on the beach said...
"swim at your own risk"


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> Acts 15
> 
> 1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.  (men are adding to the Word of God by commanding circumcision which is a yoke or bondage)
> 
> 2When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.  (they needed to go nip in the bud before these men went around spreading this heresy of circumcision being necessary for salvation)
> 
> 3And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
> 
> 4And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
> 
> 5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
> (adding religion and bondage to the freedom that comes in Christ)
> 
> 6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
> 
> 7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. (Peter reconfirms that God saves folks when people hear the Word openly wanting to be saved and BELIEVING)))
> 
> 8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; (God knows their hearts, knows they want to believe and put their faith in Christ and gives them the HS!! ad He did them...  there is NO mention of water baptism in here...)
> 
> 9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.  (a believer is a believer by their faith in Christ and His blood alone... nothing else necessary!  their hearts are pure thru FAITH)
> 
> 10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?  (a yoke, would be adding circumcision to salvation which is a work or something that man needs to do for salvation. circumcision (if necessary for salvation) is a work.  going and getting dunked is a work (if necessary for salvation).  if we go get water baptized after receiving the HS thru faith in Christ it is obedience not a work...)...  an example of "not being able to bear the yoke of a work (water baptism) would be the thief on the cross.  the thief was not physically able to go get water baptized as are many people in this world. commanding water baptism for salvation is bondage and a yoke)
> 
> 11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.  (proof after proof that salvation is SOLELY the faith (believing) in the blood of Christ that washes away sins. no mention of water baptism here)
> 
> 12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
> 
> 13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
> 
> 14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
> 
> 15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
> 
> 16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
> 
> 17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.  (men should seek God. seek His Word... not seek water baptism)
> 
> 18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
> 
> 19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: (turn to God, turn to the Word, put faith in God)
> 
> 20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.  (truly repent)
> 
> 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
> 
> 22Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
> 
> 23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
> 
> 24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:  (men have gone out and added works to salvation... that you must be circumcised or water baptized, etc subverting their souls... by keeping laws of men instead of truly having faith in the blood of Christ. they did not command to do anything for salvation other than put all faith into Christ and believing)
> 
> 25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
> 
> 26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> 27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
> 
> 28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
> (HUGE: the HS said, we lay no other burden on you than these necessary things... was water baptism mentioned in here anywhere? no...  what were they commanded to do?  see verse 20: "But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood." (this is basically repentance) IF the HS had commanded any other burden such as water baptism it would have been mentioned here, but it wasnt.)
> 
> clearly in this scene, we see men trying to lay additional burdens on other men, such as circumcision.  men are too weak and pathetic to keep burdens or the law. just like the thief on the cross... it was impossible for him to get water baptized.  total proof that 100% of salvation comes from faith in the blood of Christ and not going out and performing some ritual.  yes, we should all go get water baptized once our hearts have become right with God thru faith in the blood and the filling of the HS... but by no means does water baptism have anything to do with receiving the HS or becoming saved...



You continue to use the same argument methods (go to another verse to prove the verse in question is incorrect).  But you should never use one verse to argue against another.
All verses belong together.

You can't use 'the verses that don't mention baptism' to prove that the 'verses that do mention baptism' aren't important.
It's all important.
Grace, mercy, forgiveness, goodness, justification, sanctification.
Every single verse of God's word is true and relevant.


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> if i were to go study "good works" i would consider all of the verses dealing with good works and then formulate a conclusion about its teaching, based on what the Scripture is saying...



If you were to study "good works" you would have to look at Titus 3:5 where Paul specifically separates baptism from "good works":

_he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit_


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> If you were to study "good works" you would have to look at Titus 3:5 where Paul specifically separates baptism from "good works":
> 
> _he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit_



keep going cf, dont cut the verse so short. its true meaning comes out if you keep going...

Titus 3:4-8 
 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy (grace) He saved us (He saved us... not water), by the washing of regeneration (washed in the blood, not water), and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

 7That being justified by his grace (saved by grace not water), we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed (faith) in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.  (works are good and profitable but dont save)

cf, the washing discussed here is the washing in the blood... baptism is not even mentioned.

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

we are made righteous when we put faith in Christ and His work on the cross. we are washed in His blood at that time. its the washing of the blood that cleanses us as we see here in Rev 1:5...  since we cannot make a public display of being washed in the "actual blood" of Christ... we go and make a public display by using water baptism as commanded by Christ... but the water does not cleanse us of anything.  we were already cleansed or justified, when we called on his name...  remission of sins can come only from the blood of Christ, not water...

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


----------



## centerpin fan

BH, I posted this quote in the "Acts 2:38" thread:

_"... it is not Scripture that teaches man, but on the contrary, man foists upon Scripture whatever content he desires." _

If your last post is not a perfect example of this, I don't know what is.


----------



## BeenHuntn

that was beautiful.. who wrote that? St Hilarious...

i really need to be a better doer of the Word pertaining to Matt 7:6...


----------



## gtparts

BeenHuntn said:


> keep going cf, dont cut the verse so short. its true meaning comes out if you keep going...
> 
> Titus 3:4-8
> 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
> 
> 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy (grace) He saved us (He saved us... not water), by the washing of regeneration (washed in the blood, not water), and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
> 
> 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
> 
> 7That being justified by his grace (saved by grace not water), we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
> 
> 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed (faith) in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.  (works are good and profitable but dont save)
> 
> cf, the washing discussed here is the washing in the blood... baptism is not even mentioned.
> 
> Revelation 1:5
> And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
> 
> we are made righteous when we put faith in Christ and His work on the cross. we are washed in His blood at that time. its the washing of the blood that cleanses us as we see here in Rev 1:5...  since we cannot make a public display of being washed in the "actual blood" of Christ... we go and make a public display by using water baptism as commanded by Christ... but the water does not cleanse us of anything.  we were already cleansed or justified, when we called on his name...  remission of sins can come only from the blood of Christ, not water...
> 
> Hebrews 9:22
> And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.





centerpin fan said:


> BH, I posted this quote in the "Acts 2:38" thread:
> 
> _"... it is not Scripture that teaches man, but on the contrary, man foists upon Scripture whatever content he desires." _
> 
> If your last post is not a perfect example of this, I don't know what is.



cpf, I am absolutely dumbfounded. Do you discard the scripture BH quoted above as quickly as you do potato peelings? The least you should do is address the verses he posted. They have everything to do with the means of salvation. What else do you add to the list of things necessary for salvation?


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> keep going cf, dont cut the verse so short. its true meaning comes out if you keep going...
> 
> Titus 3:4-8
> 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
> 
> 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy (grace) He saved us (He saved us... not water), by the washing of regeneration (washed in the blood, not water), and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
> 
> 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
> 
> 7That being justified by his grace (saved by grace not water), we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
> 
> 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed (faith) in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.  (works are good and profitable but dont save)
> 
> cf, the washing discussed here is the washing in the blood... baptism is not even mentioned.
> 
> Revelation 1:5
> And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
> 
> we are made righteous when we put faith in Christ and His work on the cross. we are washed in His blood at that time. its the washing of the blood that cleanses us as we see here in Rev 1:5...  since we cannot make a public display of being washed in the "actual blood" of Christ... we go and make a public display by using water baptism as commanded by Christ... but the water does not cleanse us of anything.  we were already cleansed or justified, when we called on his name...  remission of sins can come only from the blood of Christ, not water...
> 
> Hebrews 9:22
> And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.



When someone schedules a baptism where you worship, I'm interested what they say when they get baptized? They have to say something... what is it? No right or wrong answer here... just curious


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> keep going cf, dont cut the verse so short. its true meaning comes out if you keep going...
> 
> Titus 3:4-8
> 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
> 
> 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy (grace) He saved us (He saved us... not water), by the washing of regeneration (washed in the blood, not water), and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
> 
> washing of regeneration(water) and
> renewing of the Holy Ghost (Spirit).
> 
> 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (That was God's gift to us, His Grace)
> 
> 7That being justified by his grace (Nothing could justify what God has done for us.  We simply did not deserve it.  Still don't) , we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
> 
> 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful(very, very careful.  God has expectations) to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
> 
> cf, the washing discussed here is the washing in the blood... baptism is not even mentioned.
> 
> Revelation 1:5
> And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
> 
> we are made righteous when we put faith in Christ and His work on the cross. we are washed in His blood at that time. its the washing of the blood that cleanses us as we see here in Rev 1:5...  since we cannot make a public display of being washed in the "actual blood" of Christ... we go and make a public display by using water baptism as commanded by Christ... but the water does not cleanse us of anything.  we were already cleansed or justified, when we called on his name...  remission of sins can come only from the blood of Christ, not water...
> 
> Hebrews 9:22
> And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.



You don't have to convince me that the sacrificial blood of Christ is the agent that cleanses the new believers sins, and us old timer sinners.


----------



## centerpin fan

BH, if you can look at John 3:5 and say, "that's not water baptism" and then look at Titus 3:5 and say "that's not water baptism", and then look at Acts 2:38 and say "that's not water baptism (that may not have been you) ... then I really don't know what to say.


----------



## centerpin fan

gtparts said:


> cpf, I am absolutely dumbfounded. Do you discard the scripture BH quoted above as quickly as you do potato peelings? The least you should do is address the verses he posted. They have everything to do with the means of salvation. What else do you add to the list of things necessary for salvation?



I'm not discarding any of them.  We've been discussing them for days on end in various threads.  Just to summarize, I don't see any conflict between the verses.  I believe we are saved totally, completely, 100% by the grace of God.  I also believe that baptism is essential to salvation, just as belief and repentance are essential.  Baptism is not a righteous work whereby I earn my salvation.  Paul makes that very clear in Titus 3:5.  Jesus makes that clear in John 3:5.  Peter makes that clear in 1 Peter 3:21.

The belief that baptism is just a symbol is an invention of the reformers.  Nobody believed that before the 16th century -- NOBODY.  Read the "Acts 2:38" thread where I quote ECF after ECF about what they thought of baptism.  Read Martin Luther's comments about the "sects that loudly proclaim that Baptism is merely an external form and that external forms are useless ..."


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> When someone schedules a baptism where you worship, I'm interested what they say when they get baptized? They have to say something... what is it? No right or wrong answer here... just curious



i have only seen 1 baptism at my church and it was myself...

the pastor asked me if i had placed all of my faith in Christ and His work on the cross... and i agreed.  that was it.


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> i have only seen 1 baptism at my church and it was myself...
> 
> the pastor asked me if i had placed all of my faith in Christ and His work on the cross... and i agreed.  that was it.



If you don't mind my asking, how old are you?


----------



## Jeffriesw

Rouster said:


> I have often wondered about that T Rex on the ark and how they survived the voyage with at least two T Rexes on board.  But I have to confess, I have never pondered the baptism of a T rex and its consequences.



Well, they did have alot of water available, could've winched him over the side I guess 








Seriously, does anybody see the irony in the fact that this thread was started by Pnome 



Carry on boys (and you to miss Annie)


----------



## Ronnie T

Swamp Runner said:


> Well, they did have alot of water available, could've winched him over the side I guess
> 
> 
> Seriously, does anybody see the irony in the fact that this thread was started by Pnome
> 
> 
> 
> Carry on boys (and you to miss Annie)




You know, that is a good point.


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> If you don't mind my asking, how old are you?



anybody who is so gifted to tell me exactly when Jesus forgave me my sins and when the HS came upon me... ought to be able to know my age as well...


----------



## gtparts

centerpin fan said:


> I'm not discarding any of them.  We've been discussing them for days on end in various threads.  Just to summarize, I don't see any conflict between the verses.  I believe we are saved totally, completely, 100% by the grace of God.  I also believe that baptism is essential to salvation, just as belief and repentance are essential.  Baptism is not a righteous work whereby I earn my salvation.  Paul makes that very clear in Titus 3:5.  Jesus makes that clear in John 3:5.  Peter makes that clear in 1 Peter 3:21.
> 
> The belief that baptism is just a symbol is an invention of the reformers.  Nobody believed that before the 16th century -- NOBODY.  Read the "Acts 2:38" thread where I quote ECF after ECF about what they thought of baptism.  Read Martin Luther's comments about the "sects that loudly proclaim that Baptism is merely an external form and that external forms are useless ..."



I place no... repeat, NO reliance on the ecf or ML for my salvation or as a basis for my theological positions. Fallible men all, they carry no more weight than many of the legitimate religious writers of today..... in fact, less in most every case, as their uninspired writings were limited by their inability to access information, particularly, (1) the most recently discovered ancient documents, (2) modern archaeology, and (3) the current state of scholarship on the languages  used in recording the Bible.


----------



## BeenHuntn

gtparts said:


> I place no... repeat, NO reliance on the ecf or ML for my salvation or as a basis for my theological positions. Fallible men all, they carry no more weight than many of the legitimate religious writers of today..... in fact, less in most every case, as their uninspired writings were limited by their inability to access information, particularly, (1) the most recently discovered ancient documents, (2) modern archaeology, and (3) the current state of scholarship on the languages  used in recording the Bible.


----------



## centerpin fan

gtparts said:


> I place no... repeat, NO reliance on the ecf or ML for my salvation or as a basis for my theological positions. Fallible men all, they carry no more weight than many of the legitimate religious writers of today..... in fact, less in most every case, as their uninspired writings were limited by their inability to access information, particularly, (1) the most recently discovered ancient documents, (2) modern archaeology, and (3) the current state of scholarship on the languages  used in recording the Bible.




I'll just repeat what I wrote in the other thread:

_"I don’t believe that baptism is essential because some 2nd or 3rd century Christian writer said so. I believe baptism is essential because Jesus and the apostles said so. 

The writings of the ECF’s are not scripture. They are not inspired. They are not infallible. I’ve said this repeatedly. 

Their writings are useful, though, because they show us what the early church believed and practiced. It’s obvious from the passages above that the ECF’s believed that baptism is not a symbol. It is essential to salvation. They did not just make this up. They got it from the scriptures."_


----------



## centerpin fan

gtparts said:


> they carry no more weight than many of the legitimate religious writers of today..... in fact, less in most every case, as their uninspired writings were limited by their inability to access information, particularly, (1) the most recently discovered ancient documents, (2) modern archaeology, and (3) the current state of scholarship on the languages  used in recording the Bible.




I understand this sentiment, but I'm baffled by it at the same time.  It seems that only in Christianity do some believe that those _closest_ to the sources are the _least_ knowledgeable of all and are completely untrustworthy.  

If that's what you believe, though, fine.  However, you must then carry this belief out to its logical conclusion:  that, within a generation or so of the deaths of the apostles, the entire ancient church completely reversed its position on the core doctrine of baptism.  Nobody anywhere taught the truth about baptism for the next 1,500 years.

Do you believe that?


----------



## centerpin fan

gtparts said:


> I place no... repeat, NO reliance on the ecf or ML for my salvation or as a basis for my theological positions. Fallible men all, they carry no more weight than many of the legitimate religious writers of today..... in fact, less in most every case, as their uninspired writings were limited by their inability to access information, particularly, (1) the most recently discovered ancient documents, (2) modern archaeology, and (3) the current state of scholarship on the languages  used in recording the Bible.



Let's try a different line of reasoning then.  What did Jesus mean when he said we must be born of water and the Spirit in John 3:5?


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> anybody who is so gifted to tell me exactly when Jesus forgave me my sins and when the HS came upon me... ought to be able to know my age as well...



The only reason I know it is because the Bible provides us that information.


----------



## farmasis

Just peeking in...not much has changed...

Jesus did it, Jesus said do it.

Get saved, and immediately submit to baptism. If you die before you can get to the water, my righteous and just God will do the most perfect thing with your eternal life, whatever that may be.


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> Just peeking in...not much has changed...
> 
> Jesus did it, Jesus said do it.
> 
> Get saved, and immediately submit to baptism. If you die before you can get to the water, my righteous and just God will do the most perfect thing with your eternal life, whatever that may be.




Great to see you farmasis(you know what I mean).
I hope you're doing well.

I wish one of the sheriffs would shut this thread down so I would never post to it again.


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> The only reason I know it is because the Bible provides us that information.



it does say when we are saved... but it doesnt say it occurs when we take a bath.

i wish they would shut it down too... good grief...


----------



## gtparts

centerpin fan said:


> Let's try a different line of reasoning then.  What did Jesus mean when he said we must be born of water and the Spirit in John 3:5?



The reference to born of water  is the first birth... the simple act of exiting the womb of the mother... your mother... my mother. 

In the case of Nicodemus, he asked the question, "How can I enter again into my mother's womb?". 

Nicodemus had already been born of water ... physically entering the world. His need was to experience rebirth, that of the Holy Spirit.


----------



## pileit

gtparts said:


> the reference to born of water  is the first birth... The simple act of exiting the womb of the mother... Your mother... My mother.
> 
> In the case of nicodemus, he asked the question, "how can i enter again into my mother's womb?".
> 
> Nicodemus had already been born of water ... Physically entering the world. His need was to experience rebirth, that of the holy spirit.



amen !!!!!!!!


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> it does say when we are saved... but it doesnt say it occurs when we take a bath.
> All I'll say is that Paul was told to be baptized and wash away his sins."  Or is that verse wrong also?
> 
> i wish they would shut it down too... good grief...




Jesus instituted New Testament baptism, and you just referred to it as taking a bath.
Brother it's a lot more than taking a bath, or at least it can be.


----------



## centerpin fan

Gtparts, nobody prior to the 16th century believed that Jesus was referring to anything other than baptism in John 3:5 ... but you made it clear that does not concern you.

I never thought the "physical birth" argument made any sense, though.  Why tell a living, breathing man that he needs to be physically born?  If you apply for a loan at the bank, they don't say, "Well, Mr. Parts -- if you want a loan you must first be born.  If you can verify that you were in your mother's womb at one time, you can then fill out the remaining paperwork."

On the other hand, if He's referring to baptism, it fits together perfectly with Mt 28, Mk 16:16, Acts 2:38, Romans 6, 1 Peter 3:21, Titus 3:5, etc.


----------



## Ronnie T

gtparts said:


> The reference to born of water  is the first birth... the simple act of exiting the womb of the mother... your mother... my mother.
> 
> In the case of Nicodemus, he asked the question, "How can I enter again into my mother's womb?".
> 
> Nicodemus had already been born of water ... physically entering the world. His need was to experience rebirth, that of the Holy Spirit.



Is it possible, possible, that being born of water and spirit is both accomplished at the same time??????

That during the great commission baptism of water, that the person is also baptized with the spirit???

Possible?

It seems to fit with scripture.


----------



## centerpin fan

gtparts said:


> The reference to born of water  is the first birth... the simple act of exiting the womb of the mother... your mother... my mother.
> 
> In the case of Nicodemus, he asked the question, "How can I enter again into my mother's womb?".
> 
> Nicodemus had already been born of water ... physically entering the world. His need was to experience rebirth, that of the Holy Spirit.




You really see no parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5?    What do you think the "washing of regeneration" is in this passage?


----------



## Lowjack

gtparts said:


> The reference to born of water  is the first birth... the simple act of exiting the womb of the mother... your mother... my mother.
> 
> In the case of Nicodemus, he asked the question, "How can I enter again into my mother's womb?".
> 
> Nicodemus had already been born of water ... physically entering the world. His need was to experience rebirth, that of the Holy Spirit.



There is a deeper meaning here also, You must be born of water , yes you are Correct , it means You Must be Human
To Take part of Salvation, Christ died for the Human race he did not died for the other sinners who originally sinned, those being the fallen angels, they are not atoned by his blood because they are not human.


----------



## Lowjack

The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin
"If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).


"All have sinned" (Romans 3:23). Sin results in spiritual uncleanness. Water and many other solvents are used to wash away physical dirt, but only the blood of Christ can cleanse us from sin.


Many people do not understand how blood can take away sins. Sin is rebellion against God. Thus only God can determine how sins are forgiven.


God has given blood as the means of atonement by which sins are forgiven. In Leviticus 17:11 He explains: "The life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul." Atonement is satisfaction for an offense, resulting in the restoration of a broken relationship. "According to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22).


Under the Old Covenant there was atonement through the blood of sacrificial animals. This prefigured the blood of Christ, who would bring the ultimate sacrifice for sin. "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins" (Hebrews 10:4).


"Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (Hebrews 9:12-14). Christ was qualified to pay the penalty for our sin because He was without sin. Since He was not under the same condemnation, He could voluntarily take our place, "who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness" (1 Peter 2:24).


The blood of Christ is the blood of the New Covenant. Jesus told His hearers: "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me' " (John 6:53-57).


The meaning of this mystery was revealed when Jesus instituted the Lord's supper: "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, 'Take, eat; this is My body.' Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins' " (Matthew 26:26-28). Paul explained: "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 10:16).


Now we can better understand John's statement: "If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).


We begin our walk in the light of the gospel when we are baptized into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). Paul was told: "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).
(So He was nOt speaking of water Baptism, since the blood is what washes our sins away)We continue to walk in the light by following Christ day after day and by coming together on the first day of the week to partake of the body and blood of Christ at the Lord's table. Paul says that Christians become weak and sickly if they do not partake of the Lord's supper correctly (1 Corinthians 11:30).


There is power in the blood of Christ.


The Old Covenant was given to the people of Israel. The New Covenant is for the whole world. To non-Jewish Christians Paul wrote: "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ" (Ephesians 2:13).


Under the Old Covenant only the high priest could enter the most holy place in the temple. Under the New Covenant every Christian may approach God in the heavenly sanctuary, "having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh" (Hebrews 10:19,20). Jesus suffered "that He might sanctify the people with His own blood" (Hebrews 13:12). Having been made holy by the blood of Christ, we may boldly approach God's throne of grace.


The blood of Christ is the ultimate proof of God's love. "God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Romans 5:8,9). He "loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood" (Revelation 1:5).

God proves His love by the price He was willing to pay for our salvation: "Conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:17- 19). The church was purchased by the blood of Christ (Acts 20:28).

The grace of God is demonstrated by the blood of Christ. We are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith" (Romans 3:24,25). "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Ephesians 1:7).


The blood of Christ frees us from Satan and places us in the kingdom of God: "He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13,14). "Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, 'Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death' " (Revelation 12:10,11).


Because of the blood of Christ, we may stand in white before the throne of God: "Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, 'Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?' And I said to him, 'Sir, you know.' So he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb' " (Revelation 7:13,14). "And they sang a new song, saying: 'You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation' " (Revelation 5:9).


"If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).
"The Blood is sufficient"
Roy Davison


The Scripture quotations in this article are from
The New King James Version. ©1979,1980,1982, Thomas Nelson Inc., Publishers.
Permission for reference use has been granted.


----------



## Jeffriesw

Ronnie T said:


> If you don't mind my asking, how old are you?





BeenHuntn said:


> anybody who is so gifted to tell me exactly when Jesus forgave me my sins and when the HS came upon me... ought to be able to know my age as well...





I will guess 42






farmasis said:


> Just peeking in...not much has changed...
> Never does change does it?
> 
> 
> Jesus did it, Jesus said do it.
> Yep
> 
> 
> 
> Get saved, and immediately submit to baptism. If you die before you can get to the water, my righteous and just God will do the most perfect thing with your eternal life, whatever that may be.




Amen !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## BeenHuntn

Swamp Runner said:


> I will guess 42
> 
> 
> you sir, must be a prophet...


----------



## gtparts

*To all here, posters and lurkers.....*

I wish to make it clear that I do not oppose water baptism. I have been through those waters myself and encourage others to do likewise. It is, for me , a matter of obedience to God and a testimony to others. More often than not, when I witness a baptism, I am moved to tears of joy. With moist eyes and cheeks, I praise God for the work He has done in the life of one, once lost.

But hear me clearly in this also:

What is of the flesh is of the flesh.... and what is of the Spirit is of the Spirit. God has provided many marvelous illustrations that visually represent what MUST take place in the heart and spirit of every sinner, for salvation. They are aids to understanding spiritual matters. They often aid us in preparation for personal and corporate worship. 

Now, in order to give evidence that water baptism is not essential to salvation, Jesus gave us one example and one example is all that is needed to make that point. I offer the thief on the cross next to our Lord, who knew in his dying hour that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God... and his Lord and Savior.

Salvation is for the spirit, not the body. The power unto salvation is in the blood of Jesus, not the water. 

It is the soul that needs cleansing and redemption..... and the only water it needs is the Living Water.

Grace and peace be to you all.


----------



## Tim L

Ronnie T said:


> Jesus instituted New Testament baptism, and you just referred to it as taking a bath.
> Brother it's a lot more than taking a bath, or at least it can be.



Amen!


----------



## Lowjack

gtparts said:


> I wish to make it clear that I do not oppose water baptism. I have been through those waters myself and encourage others to do likewise. It is, for me , a matter of obedience to God and a testimony to others. More often than not, when I witness a baptism, I am moved to tears of joy. With moist eyes and cheeks, I praise God for the work He has done in the life of one, once lost.
> 
> But hear me clearly in this also:
> 
> What is of the flesh is of the flesh.... and what is of the Spirit is of the Spirit. God has provided many marvelous illustrations that visually represent what MUST take place in the heart and spirit of every sinner, for salvation. They are aids to understanding spiritual matters. They often aid us in preparation for personal and corporate worship.
> 
> Now, in order to give evidence that water baptism is not essential to salvation, Jesus gave us one example and one example is all that is needed to make that point. I offer the thief on the cross next to our Lord, who knew in his dying hour that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God... and his Lord and Savior.
> 
> Salvation is for the spirit, not the body. The power unto salvation is in the blood of Jesus, not the water.
> 
> It is the soul that needs cleansing and redemption..... and the only water it needs is the Living Water.
> 
> Grace and peace be to you all.



That sir what you just said, Came from the holy Spirit, Amen !


----------



## Huntinfool

Diogenes said:


> Huntinfool clarifies things by stating that Baptism is required of the saved, and that clears things up completely.  So I’m saved, by having been Baptized.  But then clarifies further: “I don't understand God....not by a long shot.”   But wait a second – you just said that God requires something of the Saved – namely Baptism – so clearly you do understand God, and what He requires.  Right?  Can one not understand God, but still know exactly what he wants down to the most arcane ritual?



I know my wife wants me to take the trash out every day....because she told me so in a very clearly written note.

I do not understand everything about my wife by a LOOOOOONG shot.  

Easy enough?  Keep on trying to twist my posts Dio....I'll be your Huckleberry.


----------



## Ronnie T

Then, someone please explain the meaning of the following verses!


1Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

*And that Sir, as Lowjack says, came from the Holy Spirit.


*By the way, this was written by the same spirit inspired man who told those people on Pentacost to be baptized and they would receive the Holy Spirit.

*Please help me explain these verses away.


----------



## gtparts

Here is the same passage in a more easily read and understood translation. 



13 Now, who will want to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14 But even if you suffer for doing what is right, God will reward you for it. So don’t worry or be afraid of their threats. 15 Instead, you must worship Christ as Lord of your life. And if someone asks about your Christian hope, always be ready to explain it. 16 But do this in a gentle and respectful way.[c] Keep your conscience clear. Then if people speak against you, they will be ashamed when they see what a good life you live because you belong to Christ. 17 Remember, it is better to suffer for doing good, if that is what God wants, than to suffer for doing wrong!

 18 Christ suffered[d] for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.[e]

 19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison—20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.[f] 21 And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from[g] a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 22 Now Christ has gone to heaven. He is seated in the place of honor next to God, and all the angels and authorities and powers accept his authority.

Footnotes:

a)  1. 1 Peter 3:8 Greek Show brotherly love.
b)  2. 1 Peter 3:12 Ps 34:12-16.
c)   3. 1 Peter 3:16 Some English translations put this sentence on verse 15.             
d)   4. 1 Peter 3:18 Some manuscripts read died.
e)   5. 1 Peter 3:18 Or in spirit.
f)   6. 1 Peter 3:20 Greek saved through water.
g)   7. 1 Peter 3:21 Or as an appeal to God for.

Now I suppose you take it that the mention of _baptism_
in verse 21 is "water baptism". Let me ask this: Do you need a picture to visualize that which is already visible? If I am in conversation with you and I say, "I went fishing in a vessel, like a bass boat." and then showed you a picture of a bass boat, you would no doubt think, "Is he serious, I understand what a bass boat is. If his head were a Happy Meal box, he'd be missing the food  AND the toy."
So Peter is trying to make the correlation between the physical "salvation" of Noah and family that we all can grasp (they avoided death by drowning because they entered the ark), with the spiritual baptism that is the result and confirmation of salvation through Jesus Christ (we avoid spiritual death, the eternal spiritual separation from God because we placed our faith in Christ).

By comparing a known physical reality with a heretofore unknown spiritual truth, we may come to understand the nature of that spiritual truth.

I fail to see where Peter is speaking of "water baptism" here.


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## Ronnie T

You said:

So Peter is trying to make the correlation between the physical "salvation" of Noah and family that we all can grasp (they avoided death by drowning because they entered the ark), with the spiritual baptism that is the result and confirmation of salvation through Jesus Christ (we avoid spiritual death, the eternal spiritual separation from God because we placed our faith in Christ).

1.  You are saying that a Christian is saved during their baptism by the Holy Spirit!
A few post up lowjack said all Christians do not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
And I've never heard of a Christian who claims that salvation comes thru the Holy Spirit baptism.  Generally, we all claim that the Spirit comes as a result of salvation.
Your description confuses that issue.

2.  Those verses also say:  21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
*It isn't the washing away of sins by water that saves, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, the response to God.  The receiving of God's grace and mercy.


*Also this:

 antitype - a person or thing represented or foreshadowed by a type or symbol; especially a figure in the Old Testament having a *counterpart* in the New Testament


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## centerpin fan

gtparts said:


> I fail to see where Peter is speaking of "water baptism" here.[/COLOR]




I don't.  He states it quite clearly.  The waters of the flood were a foreshadowing of the waters of baptism.




gtparts said:


> that terrible flood.[f] 21 And that water is a picture of baptism,


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## Tim L

Delete


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## centerpin fan

gtparts said:


> Now I suppose you take it that the mention of _baptism_
> in verse 21 is "water baptism". Let me ask this: Do you need a picture to visualize that which is already visible? If I am in conversation with you and I say, "I went fishing in a vessel, like a bass boat." and then showed you a picture of a bass boat, you would no doubt think, "Is he serious, I understand what a bass boat is. If his head were a Happy Meal box, he'd be missing the food  AND the toy."
> So Peter is trying to make the correlation between the physical "salvation" of Noah and family that we all can grasp (they avoided death by drowning because they entered the ark), with the spiritual baptism that is the result and confirmation of salvation through Jesus Christ (we avoid spiritual death, the eternal spiritual separation from God because we placed our faith in Christ).
> 
> By comparing a known physical reality with a heretofore unknown spiritual truth, we may come to understand the nature of that spiritual truth.




I'm sorry, but this is just sophistry.

Compare what you've written with Peter's simple, direct sermon in Acts 2.  The crowd asks "what shall we do?"

Peter responds:  (1)repent and (2)be baptized.  He promised them two things would then happen:  (1) they would receive forgiveness of sins and (2) they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This is the same person speaking in 1 Peter 3:21.


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## Ronnie T

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

21. whereunto-The oldest manuscripts read, "which": literally, "which (namely, water, in general; being) the antitype (of the water of the flood) is now saving (the salvation being not yet fully realized by us, compare 1Co 10:1, 2, 5; Jude 5; puts into a state of salvation) us also (two oldest manuscripts read 'you' for 'us': You also, as well as Noah and his party), to wit, baptism." Water saved Noah not of itself, but by sustaining the ark built in faith, resting on God's word: it was to him the sign and mean of a kind of regeneration, of the earth. The flood was for Noah a baptism, as the passage through the Red Sea was for the Israelites; by baptism in the flood he and his family were transferred from the old world to the new: from immediate destruction to lengthened probation; from the companionship of the wicked to communion with God; from the severing of all bonds between the creature and the Creator to the privileges of the covenant: so we by spiritual baptism. As there was a Ham who forfeited the privileges of the covenant, so many now. The antitypical water, namely, baptism, saves you also not of itself, nor the mere material water, but the spiritual thing conjoined with it, repentance and faith, of which it is the sign and seal, as Peter proceeds to explain. Compare the union of the sign and thing signified, Joh 3:5; Eph 5:26; Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- 3:5; Heb 10:22; compare 1Jo 5:6.


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## centerpin fan

leroy said:


> what gets me is you have a bunch of Christians arguing on a thread started by a non-believer-athiest whose intent was just that from the start.



In pnome's defense, mtnwoman wanted the poll but didn't know how to do it.


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## Tim L

leroy said:


> what gets me is you have a bunch of Christians arguing on a thread started by a non-believer-athiest whose intent was just that from the start.



Well actually, he just started a poll at the request of somone else.


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## Ronnie T

Rouster said:


> Years ago, a baptist buddy of mine from Louisiana told me, some things we just don't know, we will find out for sure when we get to heaven...He had a point....I think that applies to this question...We have just about beat this horse to death; everyone keeps restating their position...lets just leave it at that and say we will find out when we get to heaven..



Here's the problem.  For me, there is fear that well meaning people will read these comments and not be baptized at all.
Last night I found several Baptist Curch websites that state that they expect baptism by all believers but will not refuse membership of someone who refuses baptism.
It's a concerning thing.
My waiting until Jesus comes is fine, my concern is for others.


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## leroy

my apologies and i will delete my post


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## Lowjack

Ronnie T said:


> You said:
> 
> 1.  You are saying that a Christian is saved during their baptism by the Holy Spirit!
> A few post up lowjack said all Christians do not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
> And I've never heard of a Christian who claims that salvation comes thru the Holy Spirit baptism.  Generally, we all claim that the Spirit comes as a result of salvation.
> Your description confuses that issue.
> 
> 
> 
> *Also this:
> 
> antitype - a person or thing represented or foreshadowed by a type or symbol; especially a figure in the Old Testament having a *counterpart* in the New Testament



Now Now Don't put words in My Mouth, I said , we are all sealed with the Holy Spirit when we accept Christ, that is a fact in scripture;
And not only does the Holy Spirit come to live on the inside of us as a result of accepting Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior, but the Bible also tells us that we have now become "sealed" with the Holy Spirit.

According to Webster's Dictionary, the word "seal" means "to confirm, authenticate or guarantee - to pledge." In two Scripture verses I will list below, the Bible tells us that we are given the Holy Spirit by God the Father as a "guarantee" and as a "deposit."

When God says that we are sealed by His Holy Spirit at the moment of our salvation in Him and Jesus, He is giving us a very powerful revelation on what is actually occurring in the spiritual realm. Not only are we receiving the presence of the Holy Spirit, but we are also being sealed with His presence.

This seal now becomes a very powerful bond between God and us. Though I do believe it is possible for a Christian to lose his salvation per the article I have done on this topic - I believe that it will take quite a bit to break this seal and bond that we now have established with God and Jesus. This seal is not easily broken.

Here are the specific verses from the Bible that will tell us that we will "receive" the Holy Spirit at the moment of our salvation with Jesus, that our bodies have now become the temple of the Holy Spirit, and that we have now been "sealed" with the presence of the Holy Spirit.

1. Receiving the Holy Spirit at the Moment of Salvation
This first verse will tell us that we will receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of our salvation with Jesus - not sometime later. Here it is:

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." (Acts 2:38)

Notice this verse is talking about those who are actually getting saved. When you "repent" and you are getting "remission" for your sins - you are in the process of getting saved by accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior. You cannot truly repent and receive forgiveness and remission for your sins unless you are first willing to accept Jesus as your Savior.

Then notice what the verse says next. After you have repented and have accepted Jesus as your personal Savior - then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit Himself. I believe this verse is telling us that we will receive the Holy Spirit the moment we accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior. It will happen right then and there, not sometime later.

Some people will get saved and water baptized at the same time. Others will get saved, and then baptized with water at a later date. The Holy Spirit will come into you at the moment you get saved - not at the moment you go through a water baptism. If you go through the water baptism at a later date, the Holy Spirit is not going to wait until you do that. He will enter into you right at the moment that you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, no matter where that may take place at.

2. Our Bodies Are Now the Temple of the Holy Spirit
The above Scripture verse tells us that we will "receive" the Holy Spirit at the moment of our salvation in Jesus. So once we receive Him, where exactly does He go? The next set of verses will tell us that He will literally come to enter in on the inside of us.

The Bible says that we have three parts to our beings - body, soul and spirit. Our human spirits are referred to as our innermost being by the Bible. The Holy Spirit will enter into and actually live and dwell in your human spirit.

As a result of the Holy Spirit now living on the inside of us in our human spirits, the Bible tells us that our bodies have now become the "temple" of the Holy Spirit since we now carry His actual presence on the inside of us.

Here are 5 very good verses telling us that the Holy Spirit now literally lives on the inside of us and that our physical bodies have now become the actual temple of the Holy Spirit.

"Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Corinthians 6:19)

"Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16)

"If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are." (1 Corinthians 3:17)

"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." (Romans 8:9)

"But if the Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11) 
Notice the first verse tells us to glorify God in both our bodies and our spirits. I believe this verse is giving us key insight that the Holy Spirit is now living on the inside of our human spirits and as such, our bodies have now become His temple. Notice this verse does not use the word "soul" - but only "spirit." Our souls and spirits are two separate parts inside of our beings.

When the Holy Spirit initially comes into us, He will literally take up residence in our human spirits. However, I believe there is a second experience that can occur where the Holy Spirit will release from your human spirit to come up into your soul area. This second experience has been called by many the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Our spirits are baptized with His presence at the moment of our salvation, but our souls can also be baptized with His presence. For a detailed explanation on what this second experience is all about and how to go about actually receiving it, go to my article titled "How to Receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit" in the Bible Basics section.

3. Sealed with the Holy Spirit
As a result of having received the presence of the Holy Spirit Himself at the moment of our conversions, the Bible tells us that we have now been "sealed" with His presence.

Here are 3 powerful verses all using the word "seal" in reference to the Holy Spirit now living on the inside of us and a fourth verse that says that the Holy Spirit has been given to us as a "guarantee."

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30)

"Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a deposit." (2 Corinthians 1:21)

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:13)

"Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee." (2 Corinthians 5:5 ) 
To think that God the Father would allow the third Person of His Godhead, the Holy Spirit, to come down and literally enter in on the inside of us where our bodies have now become the temple of His Spirit is something that is truly awesome and completely mind-blowing!


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## Lowjack

The Holy Spirit was Received by Imposing of hands;


Acts 19:5-6 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of theLord Jesus. 6 As Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came down on them and they began to speak in tongues and to utter prophecies.

Acts 8:14-18 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they send Peter and John to them. 15 The two went down to these people and prayed that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 It had not as yet come down upon any of them since they had only been baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 The pair upon arriving imposed hands on them and the received the Holy Spirit. 18 Simon observed that it was through the laying on of hands that the apostles conferred the Spirit, ...

Hebrews 6:1-2 1 Let us, then, go beyond the initial teaching about Christ and advance to maturity, not laying the foundation all over again: repentance from dead works, faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms and laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgement. 3 And, God permitting, we shall advance!

Notice how in this passage we are walked through the successive stages of the Christian journey--repentance, faith, baptism, confirmation, resurrection, and judgment. This passage encapsulates the Christian's journey toward heaven and thus gives what theologians call the order of salvation or the ordo salutis. It thus well qualifies as "the elementary teachings" of the Christian faith.

!The laying on of hands mentioned in the passage clearly must beconfirmation: The other kinds of the imposition of hands (for ordinationand for healing) are not done to each and every Christian and thus could scarcely qualify as basic teachings which form part of the order ofsalvation.

How many Churches do that Today ?


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## centerpin fan

Lowjack said:


> Notice this verse is talking about those who are actually getting saved. When you "repent" and you are getting "remission" for your sins - you are in the process of getting saved by accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior. You cannot truly repent and receive forgiveness and remission for your sins unless you are first willing to accept Jesus as your Savior.
> 
> Then notice what the verse says next. After you have repented and have accepted Jesus as your personal Savior - then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit Himself. I believe this verse is telling us that we will receive the Holy Spirit the moment we accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior. It will happen right then and there, not sometime later.



That is NOT what the verse says.  You are deliberately leaving out baptism!




Lowjack said:


> Some people will get saved and water baptized at the same time. Others will get saved, and then baptized with water at a later date. The Holy Spirit will come into you at the moment you get saved - not at the moment you go through a water baptism. If you go through the water baptism at a later date, the Holy Spirit is not going to wait until you do that. He will enter into you right at the moment that you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, no matter where that may take place at.



Again, this is not biblical in the least, but that doesn't seem to be a sticking point with you.  

Where are all these people getting baptized at a "later date" in the NT?


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## Tim L

Ronnie T said:


> Here's the problem.  For me, there is fear that well meaning people will read these comments and not be baptized at all.
> Last night I found several Baptist Curch websites that state that they expect baptism by all believers but will not refuse membership of someone who refuses baptism.
> It's a concerning thing.
> My waiting until Jesus comes is fine, my concern is for others.



Yea...thats a good point, I'm just thinking that its the same folks reading this and posting and right or wrong, these folks know what they believe...But you do have a point, if someone is out there that never was saved to begin with, they need to understand what the bible really says about christian baptism...Acts 2:38 is very clear; Peter did not speak in riddles..


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## beginnersluck

by itself...no.  Baptism is a part of salvation, just as believing in Christ, confession, etc.  Can't make lemonade without the lemons.  If you leave out a part, is it truly salvation?

If you take the bible word for word and Jesus says to be baptized for the remission of your sins, then you better bet I'm gonna be baptized.  

So even if you don't believe it or you do...here's what matters:  Baptism may not get you in heaven, but wouldn't it be aweful if it kept you out.  I'd rather do things that I don't have to do than to fall short just in case.


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## Huntinfool

centerpin fan said:


> Again, this is not biblical in the least,



80% of those surveyed don't agree with you.  



Are you, then, under the impression that the HS will WAIT until you receive water baptism to enter you?


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## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> 80% of those surveyed don't agree with you.



I could not care less.

Besides, in any poll you have to consider who's being polled.  Run the same poll before the Reformation, and nobody would be disagreeing with me. 




Huntinfool said:


> Are you, then, under the impression that the HS will WAIT until you receive water baptism to enter you?



Peter said in Acts 2:38 we would receive the HS after repentance and baptism.


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## Huntinfool

centerpin fan said:


> I could not care less.
> 
> Besides, in any poll you have to consider who's being polled.  Run the same poll before the Reformation, and nobody would be disagreeing with me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peter said in Acts 2:38 we would receive the HS after repentance and baptism.



Followers of Christ are being polled....who would you say is being polled?


So....if I said to my kids "Wash your hands and eat your greens so that you can grow big and strong.", you would read that as saying that if they don't wash their hands, they won't grow big and strong?

You're reading a timeline into that verse that is not there.


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## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> I could not care less.
> 
> Besides, in any poll you have to consider who's being polled.  Run the same poll before the Reformation, and nobody would be disagreeing with me.
> 
> Peter said in Acts 2:38 we would receive the HS after repentance and baptism.



that depends on when you gave the poll.

if you had given the poll in 45 AD.  100% would agree that water baptism was not necessary for salvation.  salvation is 100% the work of God thru grace by faith in the blood of Jesus. and 100% would have said that water baptism is just a public display of what had happened internally by the blood of Christ.

if you had given the poll in 450 AD.  the Christians would still believe what was taught back in 45 AD and is written in the Bible.  BUT, if they made that belief known... they would have been persecuted beyond belief and maybe even killed for that belief because it didn't agree with what the religious pharisees were commanding with the sword.
so they had to make a decision.  take a Biblical stance on baptism (and other Biblical doctrines) and risk getting murdered and having their kids get murdered by the religious crusaders or just keep their mouths shut and live in peace.... many chose silence.


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## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> Followers of Christ are being polled....who would you say is being polled?



The belief that baptism is merely symbolic is a Protestant doctrine.  Many (but not all) Protestants adhere to it.  Catholics, the Orthodox, the Copts and some Protestant groups do not.  The poll only proves that the majority are Protestants.  I could've told you that without a poll.




Huntinfool said:


> So....if I said to my kids "Wash your hands and eat your greens so that you can grow big and strong.", you would read that as saying that if they don't wash their hands, they won't grow big and strong?



No rational person believes that washing your hands is a prerequisite for physical growth.  Baptism, on the other hand, is linked repeatedly with salvation in this verse and others such as Mt. 28-18-20, Mk. 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, John 3:5, Titus 3:5, etc.


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## centerpin fan

This is just wrong:



BeenHuntn said:


> if you had given the poll in 45 AD.  100% would agree that water baptism was not necessary for salvation.  salvation is 100% the work of God thru grace by faith in the blood of Jesus. and 100% would have said that water baptism is just a public display of what had happened internally by the blood of Christ.



... and this is just fantasy:



BeenHuntn said:


> if you had given the poll in 450 AD.  the Christians would still believe what was taught back in 45 AD and is written in the Bible.  BUT, if they made that belief known... they would have been persecuted beyond belief and maybe even killed for that belief because it didn't agree with what the religious pharisees were commanding with the sword.
> so they had to make a decision.  take a Biblical stance on baptism (and other Biblical doctrines) and risk getting murdered and having their kids get murdered by the religious crusaders or just keep their mouths shut and live in peace.... many chose silence.


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## Huntinfool

centerpin fan said:


> No rational person believes that washing your hands is a prerequisite for physical growth.




Well.....at least 80% don't believe that, right?   I think you entirely missed the point I made.


I can hear the frustration in your posts, so I'll let it lay.  This is not a dealbreaker topic in any sense.


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## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> Well.....at least 80% don't believe that, right?   I think you entirely missed the point I made.



No, I got it.  _My_ point is that you're using an incorrect analogy.




Huntinfool said:


> I can hear the frustration in your posts, so I'll let it lay.  This is not a dealbreaker topic in any sense.



Not frustrated at all.  Saddened maybe, but not frustrated.

Going back to your previous post, what is the correct timeline for Acts 2:38?


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## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> This is just wrong:
> 
> 
> 
> ... and this is just fantasy:



funny you did not comment about the persecution...


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## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> funny you did not comment about the persecution...



BH, since when do you read church history?  What persecution are you talking about?  Christianity was legal in 450 AD.

You know, it's posts like this one that make me think you and Diogenes are the same person -- just arguing different sides.  That would certainly explain why you two have never been photographed together.


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## tell sackett

centerpin fan said:


> Peter said in Acts 2:38 we would receive the HS after repentance and baptism.


 I can't believe I'm doing this after staying out of all these threads.

I'm going to give a little background, then I have a question for you. I was saved at a church my wife and I were visiting(to see my niece get baptized ), and due to circumstances(the church my wife was a member of,and myself also now, was in the middle of conflict about removing the pastor; there were disagreements about the doctrine he was teaching); my wife and I talked it over and we agreed that I should delay my baptism until this pastor left. Neither of us, especially me, was crazy about the idea, but I didn't want to be baptized by this preacher. He left, an interim came, and I immediately made arrangements to be baptized.

This all took place in a period of about two months. Are you seriously going to try and say I wasn't saved in that two month period?


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## Huntinfool

centerpin fan said:


> Going back to your previous post, what is the correct timeline for Acts 2:38?



I should clarify....


There is not a timeline in the verse.  The HS does not wait for us to be dunked in a river to do his work.


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## centerpin fan

tell sackett said:


> I can't believe I'm doing this after staying out of all these threads.
> 
> I'm going to give a little background, then I have a question for you. I was saved at a church my wife and I were visiting(to see my niece get baptized ), and due to circumstances(the church my wife was a member of,and myself also now, was in the middle of conflict about removing the pastor; there were disagreements about the doctrine he was teaching); my wife and I talked it over and we agreed that I should delay my baptism until this pastor left. Neither of us, especially me, was crazy about the idea, but I didn't want to be baptized by this preacher. He left, an interim came, and I immediately made arrangements to be baptized.
> 
> This all took place in a period of about two months. Are you seriously going to try and say I wasn't saved in that two month period?



All I can tell you is what the Bible says:

Galatians 3:27 says "you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ".

When were you clothed with Christ?

Colossians 2:12  and Romans 6:4 say we were buried with Christ in baptism.

When were you buried with Christ?

1 Peter 3:21 says that baptism "now saves you".  It also says how it saves you:  "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".

How were you saved?


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## Huntinfool

centerpin fan said:


> No, I got it.  _My_ point is that you're using an incorrect analogy.



or a really good one that was a dang homerun!


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## Huntinfool

tell sackett said:


> Are you seriously going to try and say I wasn't saved in that two month period?



Yes, that is seriously what he's going to tell you.


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## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> I should clarify....
> 
> 
> There is not a timeline in the verse.  The HS does not wait for us to be dunked in a river to do his work.



Maybe not a timeline, but there is a clear order:

Repent, and be baptized.  Then, you will receive forgiveness of sins and the gift of the HS.


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## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> Yes, that is seriously what he's going to tell you.



No, see above.


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## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> BH, since when do you read church history?  What persecution are you talking about?  Christianity was legal in 450 AD.
> 
> You know, it's posts like this one that make me think you and Diogenes are the same person -- just arguing different sides.  That would certainly explain why you two have never been photographed together.



maybe i am really bigfoot...   since i have never been photographed with bigfoot...  you're funny... 

which persecution?  you claim to be a ecf expert but you dont know about the persecutions??  i'll let you look it up.


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## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> or a really good one that was a dang homerun!



More like a pop fly to 2nd base.


----------



## Huntinfool

centerpin fan said:


> Maybe not a timeline, but there is a clear order:
> 
> Repent, and be baptized.  Then, you will receive forgiveness of sins and the gift of the HS.



See?  There you go putting the timeline back in there.  

The "THEN" is not there my friend.


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## Huntinfool

centerpin fan said:


> No, see above.



My fault.....he's going to let the Bible tell you that you weren't saved.


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## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> which persecution?  you claim to be a ecf expert but you dont know about the persecutions??  i'll let you look it up.



No, I want you to give me some names and dates.  Who was persecuting whom?  And when?


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> See?  There you go putting the timeline back in there.
> 
> The "THEN" is not there my friend.



So when _do_ you receive forgiveness and the HS?  And what passage of scripture tells me this?


----------



## Huntinfool

You are treating that passage in Acts as if it were a formula for salvation CF.  Let me ask you this:  Where is faith in that passage if it is a progression for salvation?  If that passage is "The Steps That Must be Followed in Order to be Saved", where is belief or faith in Christ?

Please don't tell me it's implied.  Peter is not teaching a formula for salvation, but for covenant obedience.


----------



## whome

My question is this, "what does baptism do for one?" According to what the word of God says, what does it do?


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> You are treating that passage in Acts as if it were a formula for salvation CF.  Let me ask you this:  Where is faith in that passage if it is a progression for salvation?  If that passage is "The Steps That Must be Followed in Order to be Saved", where is belief or faith in Christ?
> 
> Please don't tell me it's implied.  Peter is not teaching a formula for salvation, but for covenant obedience.



It's not a _formula_ for salvation.  It's an _example_.  There are several in Acts:  here, Acts 8 with the Ethiopian eunuch, Acts 9 & 16 with Paul.  These examples fit perfectly with the Great Commission in Mt. 28 and Mark 16:16.  They fit perfectly with Romans 6, Colossians 2, Galatians 3, John 3, Titus 3, and 1 Peter 3.

What about John 3:16?  It just says we need to believe.  There's no mention of repentance.  Please don't tell me it's implied.


----------



## Huntinfool

Let's go back to the most well known passage in the Bible.

Don't you think baptism should be somewhere in or around John 3:16?

What kind of baptism was John TB performing prior to Jesus' death?


----------



## Huntinfool

centerpin fan said:


> What about John 3:16?  It just says we need to believe.  There's no mention of repentance.  Please don't tell me it's implied.



It seems we were thinking of the same passage at the same time.

It's not implied.  That's my point.  You cannot look at that verse in Acts and say "This is it!  This is how it's done!".


BTW....see my post above....baptism ain't in there either.


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> Don't you think baptism should be somewhere in or around John 3:16?



How about a dozen verses prior to John 3:16?  As in John 3:5?




Huntinfool said:


> What kind of baptism was John TB performing prior to Jesus' death?



A baptism of repentance.


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> It's not implied.  That's my point.  You cannot look at that verse in Acts and say "This is it!  This is how it's done!".



I'll ask again:  what verse should I look at?


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> It seems we were thinking of the same passage at the same time.
> 
> It's not implied.  That's my point.



Are you saying repentance is not necessary?


----------



## Huntinfool

I'm saying that it's clear you are a strictly literal reader.  No fault there.


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> I'm saying there are lots of verses that refer to salvation.  Many of them also include things that believers should do.



I agree.


----------



## Wild Turkey

All I can say is Believe. I dont feel you will be punished because of a dunk in the water. Faith is the key.


----------



## tell sackett

centerpin fan said:


> All I can tell you is what the Bible says:
> 
> Galatians 3:27 says "you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ".
> 
> When were you clothed with Christ?Go back and read vs.24-26. We are(I am) justified by faith. I was clothed with Christ the instant I asked forgiveness for my sins and put my faith in him.
> 
> Colossians 2:12  and Romans 6:4 say we were buried with Christ in baptism.
> 
> When were you buried with Christ?I was figuratively buried with Christ just as I am figuratively crucified with Him(Rom.6:6),and I am figuratively circumcised with Him(Col.2:11). It is a picture, a public profession.
> 
> 1 Peter 3:21 says that baptism "now saves you".  It also says how it saves you:  "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".You kinda left out the part in parentheses didn't you? Water baptism does not wash away the filth of the flesh. It is the answer of a good conscience- a testimony
> 
> How were you saved?


I was saved by grace through faith. Period


----------



## centerpin fan

tell sackett said:


> I was saved by grace through faith. Period



So was I.


----------



## centerpin fan

tell sackett said:


> I was clothed with Christ the instant I asked forgiveness for my sins and put my faith in him.



That's not what the passage says.



tell sackett said:


> I was figuratively buried with Christ just as I am figuratively crucified with Him(Rom.6:6),and I am figuratively circumcised with Him(Col.2:11). It is a picture, a public profession.



Baptism is not just a picture or symbol of what happened.  As Tertullian said in his _On Baptism_:

_Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. _

(Yes, I know Tertullian is completely untrustworthy because he had a funny name and lived before 1950.)




tell sackett said:


> Water baptism does not wash away the filth of the flesh.



I never said it did.  Our sins are washed away, not the dirt.  

The part I left out does not alter the fact that the verse literally states, "baptism saves you".


----------



## Ronnie T

Lowjack said:


> Now Now Don't put words in My Mouth, I said , we are all sealed with the Holy Spirit when we accept Christ, that is a fact in scripture;
> And not only does the Holy Spirit come to live on the inside of us as a result of accepting Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior, but the Bible also tells us that we have now become "sealed" with the Holy Spirit.
> 
> According to Webster's Dictionary, the word "seal" means "to confirm, authenticate or guarantee - to pledge." In two Scripture verses I will list below, the Bible tells us that we are given the Holy Spirit by God the Father as a "guarantee" and as a "deposit."
> 
> When God says that we are sealed by His Holy Spirit at the moment of our salvation in Him and Jesus, He is giving us a very powerful revelation on what is actually occurring in the spiritual realm. Not only are we receiving the presence of the Holy Spirit, but we are also being sealed with His presence.
> 
> This seal now becomes a very powerful bond between God and us. Though I do believe it is possible for a Christian to lose his salvation per the article I have done on this topic - I believe that it will take quite a bit to break this seal and bond that we now have established with God and Jesus. This seal is not easily broken.
> 
> Here are the specific verses from the Bible that will tell us that we will "receive" the Holy Spirit at the moment of our salvation with Jesus, that our bodies have now become the temple of the Holy Spirit, and that we have now been "sealed" with the presence of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> 1. Receiving the Holy Spirit at the Moment of Salvation
> This first verse will tell us that we will receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of our salvation with Jesus - not sometime later. Here it is:
> 
> Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." (Acts 2:38)
> 
> Notice this verse is talking about those who are actually getting saved. When you "repent" and you are getting "remission" for your sins - you are in the process of getting saved by accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior. You cannot truly repent and receive forgiveness and remission for your sins unless you are first willing to accept Jesus as your Savior.
> 
> Then notice what the verse says next. After you have repented and have accepted Jesus as your personal Savior - then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit Himself. I believe this verse is telling us that we will receive the Holy Spirit the moment we accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior. It will happen right then and there, not sometime later.
> 
> Some people will get saved and water baptized at the same time. Others will get saved, and then baptized with water at a later date. The Holy Spirit will come into you at the moment you get saved - not at the moment you go through a water baptism. If you go through the water baptism at a later date, the Holy Spirit is not going to wait until you do that. He will enter into you right at the moment that you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, no matter where that may take place at.
> 
> 2. Our Bodies Are Now the Temple of the Holy Spirit
> The above Scripture verse tells us that we will "receive" the Holy Spirit at the moment of our salvation in Jesus. So once we receive Him, where exactly does He go? The next set of verses will tell us that He will literally come to enter in on the inside of us.
> 
> The Bible says that we have three parts to our beings - body, soul and spirit. Our human spirits are referred to as our innermost being by the Bible. The Holy Spirit will enter into and actually live and dwell in your human spirit.
> 
> As a result of the Holy Spirit now living on the inside of us in our human spirits, the Bible tells us that our bodies have now become the "temple" of the Holy Spirit since we now carry His actual presence on the inside of us.
> 
> Here are 5 very good verses telling us that the Holy Spirit now literally lives on the inside of us and that our physical bodies have now become the actual temple of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> "Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Corinthians 6:19)
> 
> "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16)
> 
> "If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are." (1 Corinthians 3:17)
> 
> "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." (Romans 8:9)
> 
> "But if the Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11)
> Notice the first verse tells us to glorify God in both our bodies and our spirits. I believe this verse is giving us key insight that the Holy Spirit is now living on the inside of our human spirits and as such, our bodies have now become His temple. Notice this verse does not use the word "soul" - but only "spirit." Our souls and spirits are two separate parts inside of our beings.
> 
> When the Holy Spirit initially comes into us, He will literally take up residence in our human spirits. However, I believe there is a second experience that can occur where the Holy Spirit will release from your human spirit to come up into your soul area. This second experience has been called by many the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> Our spirits are baptized with His presence at the moment of our salvation, but our souls can also be baptized with His presence. For a detailed explanation on what this second experience is all about and how to go about actually receiving it, go to my article titled "How to Receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit" in the Bible Basics section.
> 
> "*You lost me there"  "I have no knowledge of that*."
> 
> 3. Sealed with the Holy Spirit
> As a result of having received the presence of the Holy Spirit Himself at the moment of our conversions, the Bible tells us that we have now been "sealed" with His presence.
> 
> Here are 3 powerful verses all using the word "seal" in reference to the Holy Spirit now living on the inside of us and a fourth verse that says that the Holy Spirit has been given to us as a "guarantee."
> 
> "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30)
> 
> "Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a deposit." (2 Corinthians 1:21)
> 
> "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:13)
> 
> "Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee." (2 Corinthians 5:5 )
> To think that God the Father would allow the third Person of His Godhead, the Holy Spirit, to come down and literally enter in on the inside of us where our bodies have now become the temple of His Spirit is something that is truly awesome and completely mind-blowing!



I believe everything you've written here is completely scriptural.  Except for the blue.
The only reason I don't agree with that is because there are some other scriptures that give me thought concerning exactly when one receives the Holy Spirit.

Good information.


----------



## Ronnie T

Lowjack said:


> The Holy Spirit was Received by Imposing of hands;
> 
> 
> Acts 19:5-6 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of theLord Jesus. 6 As Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came down on them and they began to speak in tongues and to utter prophecies.
> 
> Acts 8:14-18 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they send Peter and John to them. 15 The two went down to these people and prayed that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 It had not as yet come down upon any of them since they had only been baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 The pair upon arriving imposed hands on them and the received the Holy Spirit. 18 Simon observed that it was through the laying on of hands that the apostles conferred the Spirit, ...
> 
> Hebrews 6:1-2 1 Let us, then, go beyond the initial teaching about Christ and advance to maturity, not laying the foundation all over again: repentance from dead works, faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms and laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgement. 3 And, God permitting, we shall advance!
> 
> Notice how in this passage we are walked through the successive stages of the Christian journey--repentance, faith, baptism, confirmation, resurrection, and judgment. This passage encapsulates the Christian's journey toward heaven and thus gives what theologians call the order of salvation or the ordo salutis. It thus well qualifies as "the elementary teachings" of the Christian faith.
> 
> !The laying on of hands mentioned in the passage clearly must beconfirmation: The other kinds of the imposition of hands (for ordinationand for healing) are not done to each and every Christian and thus could scarcely qualify as basic teachings which form part of the order ofsalvation.
> 
> How many Churches do that Today ?



Thanks.
Very well explained.


----------



## Ronnie T

beginnersluck said:


> by itself...no.  Baptism is a part of salvation, just as believing in Christ, confession, etc.  Can't make lemonade without the lemons.  If you leave out a part, is it truly salvation?
> 
> If you take the bible word for word and Jesus says to be baptized for the remission of your sins, then you better bet I'm gonna be baptized.
> 
> So even if you don't believe it or you do...here's what matters:  Baptism may not get you in heaven, but wouldn't it be aweful if it kept you out.  I'd rather do things that I don't have to do than to fall short just in case.



Praise God ain't it the truth.


----------



## Michael F. Gray

Several have quoted Acts 2:38 ;there exists a group that belives one must be baptized at the moment of salvation. While I don't find that offensive, most New Testament believers follow Christ in Baptism, but usually not with a sense of immediacy, but rather ritualistic obediance. What is often lost in the translation is the first word. REPENT. It means to turn around, to change ones way, and implies a surrendering of ones will to obey the will of Almighty God. Baptism absent heart felt repentance produces but a wet sinner. If one studys Peter's writings, he was known to tell those who sought baptism to "bring forth fruits meet for repentance." I Corinthians 5:17 speaks of the convert becoming a "new creature". One need not be around a Christian long to find out if indeed he has become that new creature sold out to the cause of Christ. It can't be hidden, and counterfits reveal themselves in short order.


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> 80% of those surveyed don't agree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you, then, under the impression that the HS will WAIT until you receive water baptism to enter you?



My impressions get pretty flimsy some times.
But scripturally, it seems that the HS is implanted during baptism.

You remember the scriptures where Paul met a few of John the baptist's disciples?  Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit.  They didn't know what he was talking about.  Paul asked:  "Whose baptism were you baptized into?" They responded:  "John's baptism".  So Paul immediately baptized them in the name of Jesus Christ.


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> That's not what the passage says.
> 
> 
> 
> Baptism is not just a picture or symbol of what happened.  As Tertullian said in his _On Baptism_:
> 
> _Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. _
> 
> (Yes, I know Tertullian is completely untrustworthy because he had a funny name and lived before 1950.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never said it did.  Our sins are washed away, not the dirt.
> 
> The part I left out does not alter the fact that the verse literally states, "baptism saves you".



cf, what makes tertullians belief on baptism so special?  he was a man that put his pants on the same way we do...

a man that gives a correct analogy of the Word deserves no credit.  if a man can speak wisely of the Word, the Spirit gets the credit and glory. never men.  so you can keep glorifying the ech's all you want. if they did get the Word correct. its to the glory of God.  if they got it wrong... they never were of God.  

Luke 14:11 
11 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> Well.....at least 80% don't believe that, right?   I think you entirely missed the point I made.
> 
> 
> I can hear the frustration in your posts, so I'll let it lay.  This is not a dealbreaker topic in any sense.



I think the need for a poll for this subject was silly in the first place.
I'm not happy that 75% of those polled believe that a person can ignore the scripture and refuse baptism, and still believe themselves saved.

But I don't base my Christian life on polls.  
Placing God's will as primary importance is difficult enough without adding public popularity into the equation.


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> cf, what makes tertullians belief on baptism so special?  he was a man that put his pants on the same way we do...



Yes, but he put his pants on 1,800 years ago.  He was a lot closer to the sources than we are.




BeenHuntn said:


> so you can keep glorifying the ech's all you want.



I just quoted what he wrote.


----------



## Ronnie T

tell sackett said:


> I can't believe I'm doing this after staying out of all these threads.
> 
> I'm going to give a little background, then I have a question for you. I was saved at a church my wife and I were visiting(to see my niece get baptized ), and due to circumstances(the church my wife was a member of,and myself also now, was in the middle of conflict about removing the pastor; there were disagreements about the doctrine he was teaching); my wife and I talked it over and we agreed that I should delay my baptism until this pastor left. Neither of us, especially me, was crazy about the idea, but I didn't want to be baptized by this preacher. He left, an interim came, and I immediately made arrangements to be baptized.
> 
> This all took place in a period of about two months. Are you seriously going to try and say I wasn't saved in that two month period?



Tell, I'm reading and responding as I go tonight so I don't know if he's already responded to your comments or not, but I'd like to.

All he was saying was this:  According to scripture, it appears that the holy spirit is not received in a new believer until that new believer is baptized.
If I had known you at the time I would have said to you, "Brother, pick out someone you love as a Christian and ask them to baptize you.  It don't matter who, just get baptized."
But that's a whole nuther subject.  The important thing is that you were baptized.

This is about scripture.  All about scripture.


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> My fault.....he's going to let the Bible tell you that you weren't saved.



What's funny?  Seems logical to me.

What else would tell me?  Bible college,  church creed?  Pastor?


----------



## centerpin fan

Thanks, Ronnie.


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> You are treating that passage in Acts as if it were a formula for salvation CF.  Let me ask you this:  Where is faith in that passage if it is a progression for salvation?  If that passage is "The Steps That Must be Followed in Order to be Saved", where is belief or faith in Christ?
> 
> Please don't tell me it's implied.  Peter is not teaching a formula for salvation, but for covenant obedience.




WHAT?  Now that's a new one.


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> It seems we were thinking of the same passage at the same time.
> 
> It's not implied.  That's my point.  You cannot look at that verse in Acts and say "This is it!  This is how it's done!".
> 
> 
> BTW....see my post above....baptism ain't in there either.



You just keep digging you a hole talking against baptism and in a little while you gonnin to slip into the hole.
Pretty soon you're going to convince everyone that baptism is a joke.


----------



## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> I'll ask again:  what verse should I look at?



There are no other verses they can show you.


----------



## Ronnie T

Michael F. Gray said:


> Several have quoted Acts 2:38 ;there exists a group that belives one must be baptized at the moment of salvation. While I don't find that offensive, most New Testament believers follow Christ in Baptism, but usually not with a sense of immediacy, but rather ritualistic obediance. What is often lost in the translation is the first word. REPENT. It means to turn around, to change ones way, and implies a surrendering of ones will to obey the will of Almighty God. Baptism absent heart felt repentance produces but a wet sinner. If one studys Peter's writings, he was known to tell those who sought baptism to "bring forth fruits meet for repentance." I Corinthians 5:17 speaks of the convert becoming a "new creature". One need not be around a Christian long to find out if indeed he has become that new creature sold out to the cause of Christ. It can't be hidden, and counterfits reveal themselves in short order.



Very True.
I know a few people who've been baptized but I don't think they've ever given their hearts to Christ.  To this day they claim they will get to heaven only because they were baptized.
Their problem:  They only got wet.


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> Yes, but he put his pants on 1,800 years ago.  He was a lot closer to the sources than we are...



was he really a lot closer to the sources?  did he walk and talk  with Jesus or the Apostles?  no.  he was not a lot closer to the "sources"... he was a lot closer to men and a lot of heresy "could have" crept in to the church..

we are a lot closer to the "sources" (NT) than anybody in history except the Apostles...  we have every resource in the world ourselves.  God has chosen you and me to live in the age of knowledge.  at any given second you can access all of the information in the world... whether about Jesus, Adam and Eve or whatever.  

with a click of the button you have access to the whole world. all of history and the life of Jesus.  so no, he was not closer to the sources.  all of the men that came in between Jesus and tertullian... could have gotten it wrong.  luther could have gotten it wrong. calvin. whoever. when we go before Christ, we will only have to answer for how we molded our lives to the Word...  not to any man.  

the only people closer to the Source would have been the Apostles...  Jesus IS the Word (1 John 1)... and you have the Word sitting in your home...  the only way to get closer than that to Jesus is to have been an Apostle...  we are to devour the Word...  not mens writings of the Word...  at least thats just what i gather from the Book... not that it means anything...


----------



## centerpin fan

BH, it's good that you love the Bible.  Nobody could ever accuse you of not loving the Bible.  But remember this conversation from Acts 8:30-31:


_Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked. 

 "How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?"_ 


We all need teachers.


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> BH, it's good that you love the Bible.  Nobody could ever accuse you of not loving the Bible.  But remember this conversation from Acts 8:30-31:
> 
> 
> _Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.
> 
> "How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?"_
> 
> 
> We all need teachers.




i agree friend.  but there is a BIG difference between an anointed Philip and a non-anointed (word?) man...  

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

if you have a significant other, (wife, girlfriend, etc)... do you like to spend time with her? or with a picture of her?  you'd look a little funny going out to dinner and walk in a restaurant carrying a framed picture of a woman...  lol.

well i guess your answer depends on whether you are married or not...


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> well i guess your answer depends on whether you are married or not...



Not married.  Know any hot, single girls who believe you need to be baptized to be saved?


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> Not married.  Know any hot, single girls who believe you need to be baptized to be saved?



if i knew any hot single girls, that believed you had to be baptized to be saved... i would teach them the truth about baptism from the Bible and then i would marry them....


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> was he really a lot closer to the sources?  did he walk and talk  with Jesus or the Apostles?  no.  he was not a lot closer to the "sources"... he was a lot closer to men and a lot of heresy "could have" crept in to the church..
> 
> we are a lot closer to the "sources" (NT) than anybody in history except the Apostles...  we have every resource in the world ourselves.  God has chosen you and me to live in the age of knowledge.  at any given second you can access all of the information in the world... whether about Jesus, Adam and Eve or whatever.
> 
> with a click of the button you have access to the whole world. all of history and the life of Jesus.  so no, he was not closer to the sources.  all of the men that came in between Jesus and tertullian... could have gotten it wrong.  luther could have gotten it wrong. calvin. whoever. when we go before Christ, we will only have to answer for how we molded our lives to the Word...  not to any man.
> 
> the only people closer to the Source would have been the Apostles...  Jesus IS the Word (1 John 1)... and you have the Word sitting in your home...  the only way to get closer than that to Jesus is to have been an Apostle...  we are to devour the Word...  not mens writings of the Word...  at least thats just what i gather from the Book... not that it means anything...



I like your reasoning here and it's the very reason I use the words of Jesus and His apostles to guide my life, rather than using mens opinions.

If Jesus said His blood paid the price for the sins of the world, I believe Him and no one else.

If Jesus said His heavenly father will carry me into heaven if I will build my house upon a rock, I believe Him and no one else.  And I begin building upon that rock, and try to never stop.

If Jesus told His disciples to go into the world and teach the gospel.  And that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, I believe Him and no one else.  I don't over analyze it and I don't have to research it.

Living over 2,000 years away from the cross, in the age of intellect, we've gotten pretty daggone smart.  We've got it all figured out.  We think I'm right because that's the way I "learned" it.

I was taught some terrible ways in my early years.  I was taught that if anyone disagrees with me, they're going to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.  That's bad stuff.

*Here's what you, Beenhuntn, don't do that I have forced myself to do.
If the Word says I'm saved by grace, I believe it.
If the Word says I'm saved by mercy, I believe it.
If the Word says I'm saved by Jesus' blood, I believe it.
If the Word says I'm saved thru my faith, I believe it.
If it says:  He who believes and has been baptized, I believe it.
If it says:  if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, I believe it.
If it says:  we shall be saved by His life, I believe it.
If it says:  repent and you will be saved, I believe that.

*But all of those things belong together.  Nothing can be left out.  Neither can be ignored in favor of the other.
Why?  Because all of those words are Holy.
It ain't me.  It ain't you.  It's Jesus Christ and those words.


I was raised on opinions.  Opinions will take a person to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> if i knew any hot single girls, that believed you had to be baptized to be saved... i would teach them the truth about baptism from the Bible and then i would marry them....



I could give you some scripture references on baptism and what Jesus' commands were concerning it.


----------



## Jeff Phillips

centerpin fan said:


> I'll ask again:  what verse should I look at?



John 3:16

The way is simple. Christ came to make it simple. He came because the Jews were making it difficult. Ever since he came, man has worked hard to make it difficult again.

*For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.*


----------



## RedHead-Jimmy

Not a requirement... It's a profession of faith. If you're a believer why wouldn't you want to profess your faith publicly and to the church.


----------



## RedHead-Jimmy

I normally don't comment on stuff, but I wanted to share my thoughts. This is for the guy who said you don't receive the holy spirit until you're baptized. I believe that no matter where you are or what you're doing in your life, you accept him...he comes..... Baptism is a profession of faith. Sure, you get saved, why not get baptized... but when you're saved, man you're saved regardless if you were baptized or not.


----------



## chicken cow

What about the theif on the cross?....he didnt have time to be baptized, He asked Jesus  "remember me when you come into thy kingdom"..and Jesus told him "today you will be w/ me in paradise"....no buts about it...it is what it is!


----------



## tell sackett

centerpin fan said:


> That's not what the passage says.v.26-for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ; as for v.27- hint: all references to baptism are not water baptism, this is Spirit baptism which happens at the moment of conversion
> 
> 
> 
> Baptism is not just a picture or symbol of what happened.  As Tertullian said in his _On Baptism_:
> 
> _Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. _
> 
> (Yes, I know Tertullian is completely untrustworthy because he had a funny name and lived before 1950.)So when were you crucified with Christ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never said it did.  Our sins are washed away, not the dirt.
> 
> The part I left out does not alter the fact that the verse literally states, "baptism saves you".


Yes,our sins are washed away, but not by water baptism. Again, Spirit baptism

I don't understand how in one thread the blood is sufficient, but in another we aren't saved until we're baptized.


----------



## Ronnie T

Jeff Phillips said:


> John 3:16
> 
> The way is simple. Christ came to make it simple. He came because the Jews were making it difficult. Ever since he came, man has worked hard to make it difficult again.
> 
> *For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.*



Does that mean the person didn't have to repent?


----------



## Ronnie T

RedHead-Jimmy said:


> I normally don't comment on stuff, but I wanted to share my thoughts. This is for the guy who said you don't receive the holy spirit until you're baptized. I believe that no matter where you are or what you're doing in your life, you accept him...he comes..... Baptism is a profession of faith. Sure, you get saved, why not get baptized... but when you're saved, man you're saved regardless if you were baptized or not.




But what does God's word say about it?


.


----------



## centerpin fan

Jeff Phillips said:


> John 3:16
> 
> The way is simple. Christ came to make it simple. He came because the Jews were making it difficult. Ever since he came, man has worked hard to make it difficult again.
> 
> *For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.*



Look back a few verses at John 3:5.  Jesus' words to Nicodemus are no less simple.


----------



## Ronnie T

chicken cow said:


> What about the theif on the cross?....he didnt have time to be baptized, He asked Jesus  "remember me when you come into thy kingdom"..and Jesus told him "today you will be w/ me in paradise"....no buts about it...it is what it is!



There is a great lesson to learn from the thief on the cross. 
If you ever find yourself on the cross with Jesus, and you ask to be remembered after death, Jesus might save you right there on the spot.

Seriously,  the thief was never commanded to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.  Everyone since Jesus' resurrection has been.


----------



## centerpin fan

tell sackett said:


> Yes,our sins are washed away, but not by water baptism. Again, Spirit baptism



See Acts 22:16.

Please list scriptures that illustrate which baptisms are Spirit baptism and which are water.

BTW, I was crucified with Christ at my baptism.


----------



## tell sackett

You can start with Acts1:5

So if your sins were literally washed away when you were baptized, were you literally nailed to a cross?


----------



## centerpin fan

tell sackett said:


> You can start with Acts1:5
> 
> So if your sins were literally washed away when you were baptized, were you literally nailed to a cross?




Physically?  No.  Spiritually?  Yes.  See Romans 6:3-5.

I agree Acts 1:5 is Spirit baptism.  What about Acts 2:38, John 3:5, Mt 28:18-20, Mk 16:16, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-5, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12, Titus 3:5 and 1 Peter 3:21?


----------



## tell sackett

centerpin fan said:


> Physically?  No.  Spiritually?  Yes.  See Romans 6:3-5.
> 
> I agree Acts 1:5 is Spirit baptism.  What about Acts 2:38, John 3:5, Mt 28:18-20, Mk 16:16, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-5, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12, Titus 3:5 and 1 Peter 3:21?


So according to your understanding of Rom.6:3-5 we are literally buried with Christ when we are baptized, but if v. 6 says we are crucified with Him why is that not literal also? Also , please note the phrase"..likeness of.." in v.5.

Spirit baptism: see also Matt3:11;1Cor12:13

The bottom line is whether a scripture refers to Spirit or water  baptism there is no salvific value in water baptism


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> I like your reasoning here and it's the very reason I use the words of Jesus and His apostles to guide my life, rather than using mens opinions.
> 
> If Jesus said His blood paid the price for the sins of the world, I believe Him and no one else.
> 
> If Jesus said His heavenly father will carry me into heaven if I will build my house upon a rock, I believe Him and no one else.  And I begin building upon that rock, and try to never stop.
> 
> If Jesus told His disciples to go into the world and teach the gospel.  And that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, I believe Him and no one else.  I don't over analyze it and I don't have to research it.
> 
> Living over 2,000 years away from the cross, in the age of intellect, we've gotten pretty daggone smart.  We've got it all figured out.  We think I'm right because that's the way I "learned" it.
> 
> I was taught some terrible ways in my early years.  I was taught that if anyone disagrees with me, they're going to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.  That's bad stuff.
> 
> *Here's what you, Beenhuntn, don't do that I have forced myself to do.
> If the Word says I'm saved by grace, I believe it.
> If the Word says I'm saved by mercy, I believe it.
> If the Word says I'm saved by Jesus' blood, I believe it.
> If the Word says I'm saved thru my faith, I believe it.
> If it says:  He who believes and has been baptized, I believe it.
> If it says:  if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, I believe it.
> If it says:  we shall be saved by His life, I believe it.
> If it says:  repent and you will be saved, I believe that.
> 
> *But all of those things belong together.  Nothing can be left out.  Neither can be ignored in favor of the other.
> Why?  Because all of those words are Holy.
> It ain't me.  It ain't you.  It's Jesus Christ and those words.
> 
> 
> I was raised on opinions.  Opinions will take a person to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.




rt, regardless of what you think of me... you have some heavy hitting blood washed born again Christians in this forum telling you over and over and over...  the same thing that i am saying. you cannot say that we are saved by grace thru faith of the blood of Christ and then turn around and say that there is some kinda work that you have to do to make that salvation kick in... its impossible.   there are dozens and dozens of verses that paint the picture of salvation in the Bible... and most of the time, water baptism is rarely mentioned. because it is not necessary for salvation.

we all agree that it was commanded by Christ and the church. nobody is making lite of that.  but salvation does not take place at water baptism.

in John 5:13, Jesus healed a man and then said, "go and sin no more (repent).  He did not say anything about water.  now if water was mandatory for heaven, Jesus would have had to mention water baptism or else Jesus would have been breaking His own teaching in Gal 1:8,9 about false gospels...  Jesus healed the man because of his faith... so Jesus said go and repent.  that IS the Gospel... if Jesus failed to mention another necessary ingredient to being saved then Jesus broke His own laws of teaching a false gospel... and taught a false gospel. a gospel that is not accurate is no gospel.

in John 8:11, Jesus does the same thing again.  the sinful woman shows faith in Him (calling Him Lord) and He said, "neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more (repent)...  again if there is a "missing ingredient" here (water) to salvation Jesus broke His own commands given in Gal 1:8,9... and taught a false gospel.

if water baptism is a necessary ingredient for heaven than Jesus lied to the thief on the cross and the thief is really in helll, because he was not baptized.  and He lied to the lady at the well. and He lied to the man he healed... and He lied to us and the Scripture is a hoax...  

what does Jesus think about water baptism as a necessary ingredient to heaven...?

John 10:1
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door (Jesus) into the sheepfold (heaven), but climbeth up some other way (works, good deeds, water baptism, tithing, churchianity, alms, fasting), the same is a thief and a robber.

John 10:7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Jesus IS the Gospel. Jesus IS the Word. Jesus IS salvation.


----------



## centerpin fan

tell sackett said:


> So according to your understanding of Rom.6:3-5 we are literally buried with Christ when we are baptized, but if v. 6 says we are crucified with Him why is that not literal also? Also , please note the phrase"..likeness of.." in v.5.
> 
> Spirit baptism: see also Matt3:11;1Cor12:13
> 
> The bottom line is whether a scripture refers to Spirit or water  baptism there is no salvific value in water baptism




Literal is your term.  I used the words "physically" and "spiritually".  My position is exactly the same as Tertullian's.

Regarding the salvific value of baptism, 1 Peter 3:21 says "baptism saves you".


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> rt, regardless of what you think of me... you have some heavy hitting blood washed born again Christians in this forum telling you over and over and over...  the same thing that i am saying. you cannot say that we are saved by grace thru faith of the blood of Christ and then turn around and say that there is some kinda work that you have to do to make that salvation kick in... its impossible.   there are dozens and dozens of verses that paint the picture of salvation in the Bible... and most of the time, water baptism is never mentioned.
> 
> we all agree that it was commanded by Christ and the church. nobody is making lite of that.  but salvation does not take place at water baptism.
> 
> in John 5:13, Jesus healed a man and then said, "go and sin no more (repent).  He did not say anything about water.  now if water was mandatory for heaven, Jesus would have had to mention water baptism or else Jesus would have been breaking His own teaching in Gal 1:8,9 about false gospels...  Jesus healed the man because of his faith... so Jesus said go and repent.  that IS the Gospel... if Jesus failed to mention another necessary ingredient to being saved then Jesus broke His own laws of teaching a false gospel... and taught a false gospel. a gospel that is not accurate is no gospel.
> 
> in John 8:11, Jesus does the same thing again.  the sinful woman shows faith in Him (calling Him Lord) and He said, "neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more (repent)...  again if there is a "missing ingredient" here to salvation Jesus broke His own commands given in Gal 1:8,9... and taught a false gospel.
> 
> if water baptism is a necessary ingredient for heaven than Jesus lied to the thief on the cross and the thief is really in helll, because he was not baptized.  and He lied to the lady at the well. and He lied to the man he healed...
> 
> what does Jesus think about water baptism as necessary ingredient to heaven...?
> 
> John 10:1
> Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door (Jesus) into the sheepfold (heaven), but climbeth up some other way (works, good deeds, water baptism, tithing, churchianity, alms, fasting), the same is a thief and a robber.
> 
> John 10:7
> Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
> 
> John 10:9
> I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
> 
> Jesus IS the Gospel. Jesus IS the Word. Jesus IS salvation.



My friend, in your last post, you quoted my previous post and then completely and totally ignored everything I painsakingly wrote in it.  I wasted my time.  You didn't even get it.

Let me try it this way, although I'm convinced you won't acknowledge that you at least understand what I'm saying.

Here goes:

I totally agree with all the scriptures you just quoted and provided.  They are all obviously valid. But so are the verses where Jesus and His apostles include baptism.
You simply are not getting it.
And I'm frustrated about it.

I'm frustrated that when I quote scripture to you that speaks of baptisms role in salvation, you completely and totally dismiss them and though they don't exist.
Either that, or you say Jesus didn't mean it the way He said it.

What that tells me is that you aren't even considering my posts.

Scripturally, you and the majority are wrong.  Wrong.
You cannot ignore the fact that Paul was told to "Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins."
You need to look at that verse.  And that verse deserves acknowledgment as being inspired.

Personally, you've done a poor job convincing me to change my belief on baptism, because you ignore the baptism scripture.  You always go running to other verses that talk about grace, mercy, and doors.
And all of those are part of the inspired message.
BUT SO IS BAPTISM.


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> rt, regardless of what you think of me... you have some heavy hitting blood washed born again Christians in this forum telling you over and over and over...  the same thing that i am saying. you cannot say that we are saved by grace thru faith of the blood of Christ and then turn around and say that there is some kinda work that you have to do to make that salvation kick in... its impossible
> 
> Really?  How bout  Col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God
> 
> Or:  Acts 22:16
> And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’
> 
> Now *don't ignore these verses I've posted here.  They both speak of the removal of our sins.  And they cannot be ignored by you.  They mean something.  They must be included in our analysis of salvation.*
> .   there are dozens and dozens of verses that paint the picture of salvation in the Bible... and most of the time, water baptism is rarely mentioned. because it is not necessary for salvationBut it is always mentioned in the book of Acts.  And that's the book the deals with bringing new believers into the kingdom..
> 
> we all agree that it was commanded by Christ and the church. nobody is making lite of that.  but salvation does not take place at water baptism.
> 
> in John 5:13,Man, if you want to talk about salvation in Jesus Christ for the kingdom of God you need to go a bit further than John 5.  In John 5 Jesus is still preparing for His death, burial, resurrection.  You need to at least go as far as the great commission before you establish church doctrine. Jesus healed a man and then said, "go and sin no more (repent).  He did not say anything about waterHe didn't say anything about Grace, Mercy, Repentance either..  now if water was mandatory for heaven, Jesus would have had to mention water baptism or else Jesus would have been breaking His own teaching in Gal 1:8,9 about false gospels...  Jesus healed the man because of his faith... so Jesus said go and repent.  that IS the Gospel... if Jesus failed to mention another necessary ingredient to being saved then Jesus broke His own laws of teaching a false gospel... and taught a false gospel. a gospel that is not accurate is no gospel.
> 
> It's odd to me that you're willing to stick by Jesus' teaching all the way back in John 5 but not with His teaching concerning baptism after His resurrection.
> 
> in John 8:11, Jesus does the same thing again.  the sinful woman shows faith in Him (calling Him Lord) and He said, "neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more (repent)...  again if there is a "missing ingredient" here (water) to salvation Jesus broke His own commands given in Gal 1:8,9... and taught a false gospel.
> 
> if water baptism is a necessary ingredient for heaven than Jesus lied to the thief on the cross and the thief is really in helll, because he was not baptized.  and He lied to the lady at the well. and He lied to the man he healed... and He lied to us and the Scripture is a hoax...  we might as well start thinking like, dio...
> 
> what does Jesus think about water baptism as a necessary ingredient to heaven...?
> 
> John 10:1
> Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door (Jesus) into the sheepfold (heaven), but climbeth up some other way (works, good deeds, water baptism, tithing, churchianity, alms, fasting), the same is a thief and a robber.
> 
> John 10:7
> Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
> 
> John 10:9
> I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
> 
> Jesus IS the Gospel. Jesus IS the Word. Jesus IS salvation.



And all of that has nothing at all to do with this discussion.


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> My friend, in your last post, you quoted my previous post and then completely and totally ignored everything I painsakingly wrote in it.  I wasted my time.  You didn't even get it.
> 
> i did not ignore anything you said. in all the things you have posted in here that i have read... i only disagree with 2 of them... 1) santa claus and 2) water baptism being necessary for salvation.  i did consider what you wrote and i consider it valid. but i have to believe the Bible over men.
> 
> Let me try it this way, although I'm convinced you won't acknowledge that you at least understand what I'm saying.
> 
> i already did.  i do understand. i just dont want to hijack the thread and go off in another direction.
> 
> Here goes:
> 
> I totally agree with all the scriptures you just quoted and provided.  They are all obviously valid. But so are the verses where Jesus and His apostles include baptism.
> You simply are not getting it.
> And I'm frustrated about it.
> 
> all verses are valid and important. we both agree with that. water baptism is important... but if somebody fails to do it for whatever reason... God will not punish them for it.
> i believe that someone who is truly saved will go out and set up a baptism as soon as possible... if they dont want to, then maybe they are not truly saved. but if they cannot make it happen for some reason, and faith and repentance has taken place... God knows the persons heart and remission of sins has taken place.  we get water baptized out of love and obedience to the Word... not for salvation.
> 
> I'm frustrated that when I quote scripture to you that speaks of baptisms role in salvation, you completely and totally dismiss them and though they don't exist.
> Either that, or you say Jesus didn't mean it the way He said it.
> 
> i'm not dismissing anything. but you have to consider the whole of the subject.  this subject is really about salvation and what is necessary...  the verses do exist and are very valuable...
> 
> 
> What that tells me is that you aren't even considering my posts.
> 
> i consider all your posts (except the one on santa claus...)
> 
> Scripturally, you and the majority are wrong.  Wrong.
> You cannot ignore the fact that Paul was told to "Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins."
> You need to look at that verse.  And that verse deserves acknowledgment as being inspired.
> 
> i have looked at them.  but you are not considering in this verse that faith had already taken place. Paul verbally called Jesus, "Lord"...  Jesus said, "not 'everyone' who calls me Lord, Lord..."  so obviously, some calling him Lord is a form of faith otherwise Jesus would not have said what He did.. the majority typically are wrong (narrow is the Way)... but not in this case.  if i am wrong about this i pray that God opens my eyes... because i dont want to get it wrong...
> 
> Personally, you've done a poor job convincing me to change my belief on baptism, because you ignore the baptism scripture.  You always go running to other verses that talk about grace, mercy, and doors.
> And all of those are part of the inspired message.
> BUT SO IS BAPTISM.



i am not trying to convince you anything. i am simply debating something that we disagree on. i am not ignoring any of the Scriptures.  i use all verses that apply to a topic (in this case salvation) because they all have to be considered.  one of the rules of hermeneutics is that you allow easier verses to explain the hard verses...  since this is really about salvation and what is necessary... you have to look at all of them and allow them to interpret themselves.  when people pick 1 or 2 verses and formulate their own opinions... well lets just say thats how cults get started...  salvation is 100% of Christ.  water baptism is an act of obedience...  when somebody says that water baptism is necessary for salvation you have just said that salvation is 95% of Christ and 5% of men...


----------



## Huntinfool

Ronnie T said:


> What's funny?  Seems logical to me.
> 
> What else would tell me?  Bible college,  church creed?  Pastor?



What's funny is it doesn't seem logical to me....or biblical for that matter.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> See Acts 22:16.
> 
> Please list scriptures that illustrate which baptisms are Spirit baptism and which are water.
> 
> BTW, I was crucified with Christ at my baptism.



You were crucified in the flesh or in the spirit or both?

I'm spiritually crucified with Christ, my flesh hasn't been literally crucified, in spirit my flesh has been crucified. 
Water only washed my flesh, the blood washed my spirit which now controls my flesh.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> You were crucified in the flesh or in the spirit or both?



I was not physically nailed to a cross.  

_Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. _


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> _Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. _



I agree with that....an outward act for an inward cleansing.
I think that's been stated from the beginning of this thread.
It's the blood that washed my sins away, covered my sins, redeemed me from spiritual death or however you wanna put it. My water washed flesh will die...unless Jesus comes back soon.

I'm redeemd by the blood of the Lamb...professed in the flesh by water baptism which is symbolic of the blood washing my spirit, symbolic (acting as) of my buriel and resurrection in Christ, which is spiritual death to my sins and forgiveness because of the blood.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> I agree with that....an outward act for an inward cleansing.
> I think that's been stated from the beginning of this thread.



I don't think it has.  Unless I'm _very_ mistaken, the people voting "no" believe that baptism is an outward act that symbolizes an inward cleansing that happened at a previous point in time.  They believe that baptism should be done by all but is not essential to salvation.

That's not what I'm saying, and it's not what Tertullian was saying.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> I don't think it has.  Unless I'm _very_ mistaken, the people voting "no" believe that baptism is an outward act that symbolizes an inward cleansing that happened at a previous point in time.  They believe that baptism should be done by all but is not essential to salvation.
> 
> That's not what I'm saying, and it's not what Tertullian was saying.



You're right it was in the 'other' blood vs water thread....I'm sorry.

by the way, it's been stated now.


----------



## Gabassmaster

nope


----------



## NCHillbilly

A few years ago, it got so dry around here during a drought that the baptists started sprinkling people and the methodists just used a damp rag.


----------



## vanguard1

NCHillbilly said:


> A few years ago, it got so dry around here during a drought that the baptists started sprinkling people and the methodists just used a damp rag.


----------



## Ronnie T

Gabassmaster said:


> nope



New question for you.

Did Jesus and His apostles command that one be baptized?

Yes or No.


----------



## Gabassmaster

Ronnie T said:


> New question for you.
> 
> Did Jesus and His apostles command that one be baptized?
> 
> Yes or No.



Ronnie Baptism is an outward expression of an inward posession so i believe if you are saved that yes you SHOULD get baptized, but if some 17 year old kid gets saved that morning and walks out infront of a car and he hasnt been baptized he is going to heaven. the thread was do you have to be and the answer is no.


----------



## Gabassmaster

The thief on the cross didn't get baptised, and yet Jesus said "Today you will be with me in paradise!" And doesn't being baptised count as a work? The Bible says "Not by works which men have done, but according to his mercy he saves us." We can't do anything to get to Heaven on our own. Is God so powerless that He needs us to do things ourselves to get into Heaven?


----------



## Ronnie T

I don't believe the Bible teaches that Baptism is a work.

And you didn't answer my question.

.


----------



## vanguard1

NO. baptism does not save anyone so it is not a requirement for salvation, is it a command YES a command to believers (already saved) and it should be done asap, there is no reason why a saved person would not do it, Jesus also said to love our neighbor but do we?.


----------



## Ronnie T

1Peter 3:20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 

 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


----------



## thedeacon

Is confession required, loving your neighbor, or repentance, what about spreading the word. I can give you scriptures that say they are all necessary, at what point in your life do you become saved? I say that a person that can read 1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 (and many others if you want me to spell them out for you I will), and not believe that God intended for a person to be baptized, I submit to you that he can't read and understand anything. 

If God says do something that is called a command, baptism was not just a suggestion or an afterthought of a deciple, it is a command of God. Thats not my opinion that is what the bible says.
God says it
I believe it
That settles it


----------



## Inthegarge

Ronnie T said:


> 1Peter 3:20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
> 
> 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:



Let's put it in context... It's taking about a figure or picture...


----------



## Ronnie T

Inthegarge said:


> Let's put it in context... It's taking about a figure or picture...




Okay.
What's Peter saying about baptism in verse 22?


----------



## whome

My question would be at what point does one become saved? Is it when you believe? What constitutes as believing? A prayer? A thought? Might want to figure out what brings a believer into contact with the blood of Christ, and what that blood does.


----------



## vanguard1

1 Peter 3:20-22 (Amplified Bible)
20[The souls of those] who long before in the days of Noah had been disobedient, when God's patience waited during the building of the ark in which a few [people], actually eight in number, were saved through water.(A)

    21And baptism, which is a figure [of their deliverance], does now also save you [from inward questionings and fears], not by the removing of outward body filth [bathing], but by [providing you with] the answer of a good and clear conscience (inward cleanness and peace) before God [because you are demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

the water did not save them THE ARK SAVED THEM, in the same way the water does not save you it is the BLOOD OF JESUS.


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## vanguard1

Ephesians 1:7 (King James Version)

 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


Colossians 1:14 (King James Version)

 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:


Hebrews 9:22 (King James Version)

 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission

1 Peter 1:18-20 (King James Version)

 18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 

 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot


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## Ronnie T

vanguard1 said:


> 1 Peter 3:20-22 (Amplified Bible)
> 20[The souls of those] who long before in the days of Noah had been disobedient, when God's patience waited during the building of the ark in which a few [people], actually eight in number, were saved through water.(A)
> 
> 21And baptism, which is a figure [of their deliverance], does now also save you [from inward questionings and fears], not by the removing of outward body filth [bathing], but by [providing you with] the answer of a good and clear conscience (inward cleanness and peace) before God [because you are demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
> 
> the water did not save them THE ARK SAVED THEM, in the same way the water does not save you it is the BLOOD OF JESUS.



So then, is Peter saying I'm saved in baptism, but it isn't the water that purifies me during baptism, it's the blood of Jesus that purifies me and washes away my sins during baptism??

What does "answer of a good conscience" have to do in baptism?


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## vanguard1

it is a figure of what has allready happened. you get baptism to show others what has happened to you and also gives you peace knowing you have done what the Lord has asked (or commanded) you to do. that is what this means(answer of a good conscience").it is so easy you need help to missunderstand it. p.s. i hope you had a good thanksgiving.


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## Ronnie T

1 Peter 3:20-21 (New King James Version)
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


I take it to mean this:

Peter said Noah's family was saved by the water. So we cannot deny what Peter said.  But we also know how Noah was saved by that water.  God was merciful to Noah and Noah responded by being obedient in faith to the instructions God gave Noah.
God told Noah what to do, and Noah did it (built the ark).
Noah was saved from the flood by the water because his conscience had responded to the grace of God.

Peter says that today we are saved by baptism, in the same way Noah was saved from the flood.
We aren't saved because of any washing affect of the water.
We're saved because we, just like Noah, responded to God's mercy and grace.

God gave Noah something to do in order to be saved from the flood, and Noah, in faith, did just that.
God gave us something to do in order to be saved from this same dirty world, and we, in faith, are to do it.

It wasn't simple the ark and baptism.
It was God working in and through both of them.


Noah wasn't saved by the "work" of building the ark.
Noah was saved by his faith, that manifested itself in the building of the ark.

Same for us.  Baptism isn't a work.  It is the manifestation of our faith.  It is our 'answer of a good conscience'.


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## vanguard1

The Lord’s Supper and Baptism are like the Seder meal. They serve as signs to let us look on the mighty acts of God’s salvation in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Neither baptism nor the Lord’s Supper save or make atonement. They both point toward and show forth Jesus Christ’s acts of salvation. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper are recitals or confessions of faith in the salvation one has through Jesus Christ alone.

There are two passages in the New Testament which are cited to prove that baptism saves. One is Mark 16:16. In this verse, Jesus emphasizes the importance of faith. Notice he says that condemnation comes to the one who does not believe, not to the unbaptized. The focus is on faith, which is followed by baptism. You will find that faith is the constant element in salvation in the Bible, even where baptism is not mentioned. Baptism is never disconnected from faith. Most Christians believe this. But faith is often mentioned as the way to salvation, without mentioning baptism. It is consistent with Scripture to conclude that faith is the constant means and therefore the only basis for salvation in the NT.

The second passage is in 1 Peter 3:20,21. It is said that this verse proves that baptism saves a person. But Peter is not saying that. He is saying that the baptismal waters are like the waters of the flood. They picture one’s coming out of the waters of judgment by the resurrection of Christ. It is not the waters which deliver or save. It is Christ by His resurrection. Peter makes it clear in verse 18 that Christ’s death, resurrection and ascension bring us to God, thus saving us. Peter is speaking of baptism as a sign or symbol of the salvation of Christ.

Does Christ or Baptism save you? The Bible says it is Christ. We trust in a Savior and we are assured by a symbol. The symbol points to and glorifies Christ. It is blessed of God as long as it points us to the Savior and inspires us to totally trust in Him. 

The Church is not sent to baptize. It is called to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--" (NIV 1 Corinthians 1:17) The word "necessity" should be used in reference to faith in Christ and not to baptism. "He who has faith, but cannot obtain a sacrament [baptism], has Christ: he who has a sacrament but has not faith has nothing" [Beasley-Murray, Baptism in the New Testament, p. 304, quoting Wotherspoon] When more attention is placed on the importance of Baptism as salvation than faith in Jesus Christ, too much faith is placed in Baptism. The saving is in the Savior - and Him alone


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## centerpin fan

vanguard1 said:


> ... faith is the constant means and therefore the only basis for salvation in the NT...



I'm not completely sure why I'm even bothering at this point, but here goes nothing.  Just for kicks, let's take a look at what Mr. Faith Alone (a/k/a Martin Luther) had to say about baptism (emphasis mine):


_"... that Baptism is no human trifle, but instituted by God Himself, moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved, lest any one regard it as a trifling matter, like putting on a new red coat. For it is of the greatest importance that we esteem Baptism excellent, glorious, and exalted, for which we contend and fight chiefly, because the world is now so full of sects clamoring that Baptism is an external thing, and that external things are of no benefit...." _


_"... it is pure wickedness and blasphemy of the devil that now our new spirits, to mock at Baptism, omit from it God's Word and institution, and look upon it in no other way than as water which is taken from the well, and then blather and say: How is a handful of water to help the soul?"


"... I exhort again that these two the water and the Word, by no means be separated from one another and parted. For if the Word is separated from it, the water is the same as that with which the servant cooks, and may indeed be called a bath-keeper's baptism. But when it is added, as God has ordained, it is a Sacrament, and is called Christ-baptism..."


"... And this also we cannot discern better than from the words of Christ above quoted: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Therefore state it most simply thus, that the power, work, profit, fruit, and end of Baptism is this, namely, to save. For no one is baptized in order that he may become a prince, but, as the words declare, that he be saved. But to be saved. we know. is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death, and the devil, and to enter into the kingdom of Christ, and to live with Him forever...."


"... But as our would-be wise, new spirits assert that faith alone saves, and that works and external things avail nothing, we answer: It is true, indeed, that nothing in us is of any avail but faith, as we shall hear still further. But these blind guides are unwilling to see this, namely, that faith must have something which it believes, that is, of which it takes hold, and upon which it stands and rests. Thus faith clings to the water, and believes that it is Baptism, in which there is pure salvation and life; not through the water (as we have sufficiently stated), but through the fact that it is embodied in the Word and institution of God, and the name of God inheres in it. Now, if I believe this, what else is it than believing in God as in Him who has given and planted His Word into this ordinance, and proposes to us this external thing wherein we may apprehend such a treasure?"


"... But if they say, as they are accustomed: Still Baptism is itself a work, and you say works are of no avail for salvation; what then, becomes of faith? Answer: Yes, our works, indeed, avail nothing for salvation; Baptism, however, is not our work, but God's (for, as was stated, you must put Christ-baptism far away from a bath-keeper's baptism). God's works, however, are saving and necessary for salvation, and do not exclude, but demand, faith; for without faith they could not be apprehended. For by suffering the water to be poured upon you, you have not yet received Baptism in such a manner that it benefits you anything; but it becomes beneficial to you if you have yourself baptized with the thought that this is according to God's command and ordinance, and besides in God's name, in order that you may receive in the water the promised salvation. Now, this the fist cannot do, nor the body; but the heart must believe it..."_


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## Ronnie T

vanguard1 said:


> The Lord’s Supper and Baptism are like the Seder meal. They serve as signs to let us look on the mighty acts of God’s salvation in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Neither baptism nor the Lord’s Supper save or make atonement. They both point toward and show forth Jesus Christ’s acts of salvation. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper are recitals or confessions of faith in the salvation one has through Jesus Christ alone.
> 
> Sounds good, but everything above is man-made doctrine and not biblical.  No place does the Bible place baptism and Lord's Supper in the same category.  Nothing you say above is of the Bible.  Someone 'spun' it up and you have now accepted it.
> 
> 
> 
> There are two passages in the New Testament which are cited to prove that baptism saves. One is Mark 16:16. In this verse, Jesus emphasizes the importance of faith. Notice he says that condemnation comes to the one who does not believe, not to the unbaptized.Total misrepresentation of the scriptures. The focus is on faith, which is followed by baptism. You will find that faith is the constant element in salvation in the Bible, even where baptism is not mentioned. Baptism is never disconnected from faith. Most Christians believe this. Most people might believe it, but that's not what the Bible saysBut faith is often mentioned as the way to salvation, without mentioning baptism.
> I do agree, faith and baptism cannot be seperated from the person who's coming to Christ.  But after baptism, faith continues with a power of it's own, strengthened by God Himself.
> It is consistent with Scripture to conclude that faith is the constant means and therefore the only basis for salvation in the NT. Then why the scripture comparing baptizm to Noah's salvation?
> 
> The second passage is in 1 Peter 3:20,21. It is said that this verse proves that baptism saves a person. But Peter is not saying that. He is saying that the baptismal waters are like the waters of the flood. They picture one’s coming out of the waters of judgment by the resurrection of Christ. It is not the waters which deliver or save. It is Christ by His resurrection. Peter makes it clear in verse 18 that Christ’s death, resurrection and ascension bring us to God, thus saving us. Peter is speaking of baptism as a sign or symbol of the salvation of Christ.  There's no evidence of symbolism being used in those verses.  You're asking those verses to "not" say what they plainly say.
> 
> Does Christ or Baptism save you? The Bible says it is Christ. We trust in a Savior and we are assured by a symbol. The symbol points to and glorifies Christ. It is blessed of God as long as it points us to the Savior and inspires us to totally trust in Him.
> 
> The Church is not sent to baptize. It is called to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--" (NIV 1 Corinthians 1:17) The word "necessity" should be used in reference to faith in Christ and not to baptism. "He who has faith, but cannot obtain a sacrament [baptism], has Christ: he who has a sacrament but has not faith has nothing" [Beasley-Murray, Baptism in the New Testament, p. 304, quoting Wotherspoon] More man-made talk. When more attention is placed on the importance of Baptism as salvation than faith in Jesus Christ, too much faith is placed in Baptism. The saving is in the Savior - and Him alone



In Acts 2:38, when the hearers asked Peter "what shall we do" what was his response?

If Noah had faith that God would save him from the flood, but, did not build the ark, would God have saved Noah?????????????????????????????????

I can't talk about this with you anymore because like so many others, you've left the verses we were talking about and have now begun adding the home-made stuff into the topic.
This means we've come to a stand still.


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## Ronnie T

Vangard1 said: "The Church is not sent to baptize. It is called to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--" (NIV 1 Corinthians 1:17) "

Paul absolutely said that, but the resurrected Jesus Christ commissioned ALL the other apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

And, even Paul, upon meeting some disciples who had not been baptized into Christ, immediately baptized them.


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## Crubear

Luke 23:39-43 (New International Version, ©2010)

 39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: â€œArenâ€™t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!â€� 

 40 But the other criminal rebuked him. â€œDonâ€™t you fear God,â€� he said, â€œsince you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.â€� 

 42 Then he said, â€œJesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.â€� 

 43 Jesus answered him, â€œTruly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.â€� 

When was the thief baptised?


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## Ronnie T

Crubear said:


> Luke 23:39-43 (New International Version, ©2010)
> 
> 39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
> 
> 40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
> 
> 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
> 
> 43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
> 
> When was the thief baptised?




Are you insinuating that since the thief wasn't baptized with the New Testament baptism of Acts 2 we should not believe in Jesus' teachings and commands concerning baptism?
All of which, by the way, were spoken after this thief was on the cross.
Just because Jesus did what He would with this thief doesn't give you or I a reason to ignore or minimize any of Jesus' teachings.

Jesus can do as He purposes!  You and I must do as He commands.
And then I'll leave it all up to Him.


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## Crubear

The question was if baptism was required for salvation, not what you or I feel is required or commanded. There is a difference. And Jesus was seldom about the rules, He was more interested in people having a relationship with God that impacted their lives and the lives of those around them - being a part of the Kingdom of God.

THIS is WHAT we're commanded to do:

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


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## vanguard1

it is simple romans 10:9-10 says how to be saved. once you ARE SAVED you need to get baptized. only SAVED PEOPLE CAN BE BAPTIZED. it is very clear and to teach otherwise is false.


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## vanguard1

Does Baptism Save?

By: K. B. Napier

The simple answer is, no it does not. The claim, that baptism saves, is Romanist in theology and Arminian in thought…a thought that should not even cross the minds of genuine believers. (For an argument against the Roman position on this, see criticism of the theology of Thomas Aquinas). 

Paul told his hearers that John came with the ‘baptism of repentance’. This baptism did not save, but was an act prior to the repentance given by God to salvation. For example, in Acts 19:3-7, we are told that “John verily baptised with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

Very clearly, this shows us that John’s baptism did not save, but pointed the people toward the Messiah and His salvation. Those who were baptised by John were brought to a realisation of their sin, but they then had to “believe on him which should come after him”. If Jesus came ‘after’ John, then those who repented before He came could not have received His salvation at that time. Therefore, salvation did not come through John’s baptism.

Those who had been baptised by John, later “were baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus.” The two baptisms are very different. But, does the later baptism, in the name of Jesus Christ, bring salvation? No, it does not.

Christians are baptised “into His death” (Jesus Christ, e.g. Romans 6:3,4), the baptism denoting our new life, made alive from a state of death, caused by sin. Baptism is said only to be a symbol of this new life, and is not the creator of new life; it highlights a new life that has already been given. Thus, it does not save, but merely reflects a life already saved.

You will note that our ‘old man’ (sin) is “crucified with him” (verse 6). It is logical, that before we are dead we are crucified. One comes before the other. Therefore, the action that leads to new life comes before death (symbolised by baptism)! Our death to sin is the very point at which we come alive to Christ (salvation). One is not buried until he is dead, so we can deduce that as crucifixion brings new life, and baptism comes after crucifixion, we are already spiritually alive when we are baptised.

This new life is not created by us, or by our own actions, not even baptism, for new life is only given through and by Jesus Christ and His crucifixion. He passes on to those who are elect the benefits of His personal crucifixion and resurrection. Indeed, the symbol of baptism must also, because of this, include resurrection, for, as Paul says, Christ’s death without His resurrection, is pointless, making our faith vain.

This fact is found to be true in Colossians 2:12 where we read that we are “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with (him)…” Does this mean we are thereby saved by baptism. No, it does not, as we find in 1 Peter 3:21. Curiously, this very same text is used as a proof text by those who claim baptism saves!

What does this text actually tell us? Does it say we are saved from death unto life by baptism? The person who says it does, displays a distinct lack of understanding, about true interpretation, about scripture, about salvation, and about Bible theology. In fact, the person who says it does is being heretical.

Let us look at the text in its context:

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometimes were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The like figure whereunto (even) baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

The word for baptism in this text is baptisma. It can have a variety of meanings, including John’s baptism, calamities that overwhelm us, and the Christian rite of baptism, by which we confess our sins and faith in Christ Jesus. We cannot make such a confession unless we already have such faith, and faith is given as a gift to all who believe. That is, all who are already saved!

Baptisma is rooted in baptizo, which can mean to immerse in order to change it (anything, including pickles in vinegar!), to overwhelm, to submerge (as a ship under water). It is not the same as bapto (e.g. dipping and superficial, such as dipping cloth into a dye, which changes the colour only and not the substance or nature of the cloth). Baptizo means to dip once to clean and then a second time to effect a permanent change. Christian baptism is supposed to reflect permanent change and union with Christ (not just intellectual assent) – it does not bring it about. Baptisma, not baptizo!

Baptism is a “like figure” of the saving of the ark. A ‘like figure’ is similar to something, antitupos, and points toward it, but is not itself the thing it points toward. Thus, It is similar but not ‘the same’. The word for ‘saved’ in verse 20 is different from the word used in verse 21. In verse 20 it is diasozo, meaning to stop someone from perishing/to save from danger/to rescue. Noah was, then, saved from drowning – the word does not mean eternal salvation.

So, if our baptism is a ‘like figure’, it is not going to save us eternally, but it saves us from entering into mortal danger, e.g. continuing sin, by causing us to think and stop. Our baptism is sozo – it keeps us safe and sound by rescuing us from danger, restoring us to a full and secure life. How do we know that I am right? Well, the word, in context, tells us so…but this is reinforced by the qualifying remark itself, which says that baptism does not mean “the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God”!

Baptism, then, does not save us eternally, but only shows others (and our own conscience) that we are already new creatures. In baptism we pin our colours to the mast and declare that we are saved eternally and wish to show it in the rite of being immersed.

“putting away” is apothesis, which means putting off or discarding, in this case, sin. Scripture tells us that this is done by God, not by any act we perform. We put away rhupos – filth (sin)…but this is brought about by Christ, not by us. We cast off sarx – natural actions of the flesh, that is our nature as sinful men. The text tells us that baptism does NOT cause us to cast aside sin or to escape our natural carnal, fleshly desires!

Rather, baptism is “the answer of a good conscience” toward God. That is, eperotema – an earnest seeking to do what is right according to conscience – suneidesis, the activity of the soul distinguishing good and evil. This is brought into being by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, NOT by our baptism! That is what the text actually tells us, so how can anyone argue against it?

Let me repeat – baptism is a symbol of our change, wrought by being made new creatures, and effected before we are baptised. To insist otherwise, and to say that baptism is what saves us, or is part of salvation, is to lack proper understanding of salvation. The formulation is Arminian and Romanist, not spiritual, and denies the truth of God’s word.


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## Ronnie T

Is baptism that which gains us entry into heaven?  No.
Are our sins washed away by the water of baptism?  No.  Jesus' blood.

Thread subject question:  Is Baptism a requirement for salvation?  Yes.
At least, according to Jesus Christ.

Jesus commanded His apostles to carry it out.
Jesus included baptism with the other instructions to His apostles.
Jesus' apostles always baptized new believers.  They never scheduled it 3 weeks later.

The biblical indication to all teachers, preachers, and missionaries is to teach the gospel and baptize all who accept.

It's a strange thing to me that during the past 500 years there's been such a determined desire to remove baptism from the requirement of new Christians.
It was certainly not done during the previous 1500 years.

When I teach someone about salvation in Christ I always save baptism until the last.  But I always include it as part of coming to Christ.  I do it because the apostles did it.
I do it because that's what Jesus told me to do.
I don't analize it.  I don't need to quote the words of people I've never met.  I only need to read and accept the holy Scriptures.

Rather than spending time proving Jesus didn't mean what He said, I just accept what He taught with no question at all.

It's always worked for the apostles.  It will work for anyone.

In Romans 10,........
..Paul is writing to Christians in Roman.
..Paul is speaking about Jews who have refused Christ.
..Paul is talking about what is keeping them from God's kingdom.
..Some day, those Jews need to be able to confess Christ as Lord..
..and they need to believe in His resurrection.

Back in Acts 2 Paul said a completely different thing to Jews who had accepted the Gospel.  "Believe and be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."


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## Crubear

So, it's all about following the rules? No deviation, just as you interpret them.

Seems to me I've read about that somewhere. Oh yeah, the Gospels. Technically the Sadduces were correct, obeyed all the laws and commandments - again technically.

Some religous rebel from Nazareth came and taught it wasn't about rules. They crucified him for it. I think I'll follow that guy rather than your rules.

And I'll let Him judge who can and can't be in Heaven with Him too.


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## vanguard1

Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus' death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say we must be baptized in order to be saved is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ's death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus' death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus' payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.

it should be done asap i agree, but if something happened and the person died before, they are still saved. i also agree churches put it off too long, my church does it the very next week and that is good.


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## Inthegarge

My question is what do you do when scripture says Eph 4:5 " One Lord, one faith, one baptism " and then we read 1 Cor 12:13 " For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. "

So if we are baptized into the body by the Spirit what is water baptism for?   It is a step of obedience for one who is saved... One already baptized into the Body of Christ by the Spirit.

So is water baptisim necessary for Salvation ?(OP) No, but it is necessary for obedience and to show others what happened on the inside.....JMHCO  RW


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## centerpin fan

vanguard1 said:


> Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus' death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say we must be baptized in order to be saved is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ's death in order to make it sufficient for salvation.



Martin Luther addressed this very point 500 years ago when he said:

_"... But if they say, as they are accustomed: Still Baptism is itself a work, and you say works are of no avail for salvation; what then, becomes of faith? Answer: Yes, our works, indeed, avail nothing for salvation; Baptism, however, is not our work, but God's ..."_

Now, I realize that nobody who voted "no" in the poll cares one iota about what Martin Luther says.  Yet, I am _fascinated_ that Luther, the man who made "faith alone" a battle cry and the man without whom every "no" vote would be attending Mass this weekend, is quickly and completely ignored.

All I can do is quote Mr. Spock:  "Fascinating."


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## Ronnie T

vanguard1 said:


> Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation.
> Not according to Jesus' great commission.
> 
> To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus' death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation.
> It was sufficient.  But every sin in the world was not automatically wiped away at the moment of Jesus' death.
> And, why did Jesus, after He died that sacrifical death, command the following?  Matt 28:19......go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
> 
> To say we must be baptized in order to be saved is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ's death in order to make it sufficient for salvation.
> Baptism is not about "my" work, it's about the working of Jesus Christ in my life.
> 
> Jesus' death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). I agree.  Baptism in no way pays the price for anyone's sins.
> 
> Jesus' payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). I agree with this.  But that doesn't mean Jesus doesn't require baptism.
> 
> Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.
> This makes total sense to me.  Except, Jesus command baptism; and He did not indicate any time lapse between the two.
> 
> it should be done asap i agree, but if something happened and the person died before, they are still saved.
> I would assume you are correct here.  Jesus Christ is merciful and full of loving kindness.  But in all my life I've never known of that happening.
> 
> i also agree churches put it off too long, my church does it the very next week and that is good.


 Why doesn't your church do it exactly according to the example set for in the New Testament?  In the book of Acts there is never an indication of any unnecessory delay in baptism?  Why would any church differ from the Holy Scriptures?

Dear brother, you and I might as well drop this discussion.  We are never going to agree.
We both agree on so much.

I believe we are saved by the grace of God.
That Jesus' blood has cleansed meof my sins, and continues.

I don't believe anyone can work themselves to heaven.
I believe it's all a gift of God given to those who give themselves to Him, thru His Son.

I believe heaven belongs to disciples of Jesus Christ.

And I believe all of that begins as a person rises from the waters of baptism.


----------



## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> Martin Luther addressed this very point 500 years ago when he said:
> 
> _"... But if they say, as they are accustomed: Still Baptism is itself a work, and you say works are of no avail for salvation; what then, becomes of faith? Answer: Yes, our works, indeed, avail nothing for salvation; Baptism, however, is not our work, but God's ..."_
> 
> Now, I realize that nobody who voted "no" in the poll cares one iota about what Martin Luther says.  Yet, I am _fascinated_ that Luther, the man who made "faith alone" a battle cry and the man without whom every "no" vote would be attending Mass this weekend, is quickly and completely ignored.
> 
> All I can do is quote Mr. Spock:  "Fascinating."




I wonder if Brother Martin would be disturbed at falling in the minority on this poll.
I am glad that my vote is with him.


----------



## vanguard1

Ronnie T said:


> Why doesn't your church do it exactly according to the example set for in the New Testament?  In the book of Acts there is never an indication of any unnecessory delay in baptism?  Why would any church differ from the Holy Scriptures?
> 
> Dear brother, you and I might as well drop this discussion.  We are never going to agree.
> We both agree on so much.
> 
> I believe we are saved by the grace of God.
> That Jesus' blood has cleansed meof my sins, and continues.
> 
> I don't believe anyone can work themselves to heaven.
> I believe it's all a gift of God given to those who give themselves to Him, thru His Son.
> 
> I believe heaven belongs to disciples of Jesus Christ.
> 
> And I believe all of that begins as a person rises from the waters of baptism.



i agree i,m done. God bless you


----------



## Big7

centerpin fan said:


> Martin Luther addressed this very point 500 years ago when he said:
> 
> _"... But if they say, as they are accustomed: Still Baptism is itself a work, and you say works are of no avail for salvation; what then, becomes of faith? Answer: Yes, our works, indeed, avail nothing for salvation; Baptism, however, is not our work, but God's ..."_
> 
> Now, I realize that nobody who voted "no" in the poll cares one iota about what Martin Luther says.  Yet, I am _fascinated_ that Luther, the man who made "faith alone" a battle cry and the man without whom every "no" vote would be attending Mass this weekend, is quickly and completely ignored.
> 
> All I can do is quote Mr. Spock:  "Fascinating."



Good Post!


----------



## Gabassmaster

ive personally never heard of anything in the bible that says you will go to  hejj if your not baptized


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

It is possible to be cleansed / baptized in the Holy Spirit without being dunked, dipped or drizzled. Question is, does the Bible require us to go through this symbolic gesture to seal the deal? I think not.


----------



## Ronnie T

Gabassmaster said:


> ive personally never heard of anything in the bible that says you will go to  hejj if your not baptized



I didn't notice Jesus giving us an option...... Did you????

Are you actually presenting an argument as to how a person might disregard what Jesus commanded and what the apostles taught?????  Man!


----------



## Ronnie T

Miguel Cervantes said:


> It is possible to be cleansed / baptized in the Holy Spirit without being dunked, dipped or drizzled. Question is, does the Bible require us to go through this symbolic gesture to seal the deal? I think not.



If you've made that choice, you've ignored a very important part of Jesus' teachings.
And you're advocating that others might be okay if they do the same.
What does that say about you?????

And no place, no place, does it say its nothing more than a symbolic gesture.  No place.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

Ronnie T said:


> If you've made that choice, you've ignored a very important part of Jesus' teachings.
> And you're advocating that others might be okay if they do the same.
> What does that say about you?????
> 
> And no place, no place, does it say its nothing more than a symbolic gesture. No place.


 
LOL!!! It always amazes me how folks take liberties to assume in this forum.

I've been sprinkled, dunked and dipped. It seems that every denomination doesn't think the other ones is good enough for them. Thus making the symbolism of the event even more invalid in my view. The baptism of the Holy Spirit however, now there's some powerful stuff.. and many if not most of those that have been sprinkled, dipped or dunked never make it to that point.

Which is more important?


----------



## Lead Poison

I am a Southern Baptist, thus my beliefs are obviously in accordance my faith.

The only requirement for salvation is accepting Jesus as your Lord and personal Savior

Baptism is _not_ a requirement for salvation. 

However, one _should_ be baptized as a public profession of faith in Jesus.

I firmly believe there will be people from different _CHRISTIAN_ faiths in heaven. Those who sincerely accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior regardless of their means of baptism...dunked, sprinkled, etc. 

It is all about accepting Jesus.


----------



## FritzMichaels

Lead Poison said:


> The only requirement for salvation is accepting Jesus as your Lord and personal Savior
> 
> Scripture chapter and verse please?
> 
> I firmly believe there will be people from different _CHRISTIAN_ faiths in heaven.
> 
> 
> There is only ONE Faith...
> 
> (Eph 4:5)  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
> 
> It is all about accepting Jesus.



Scripture chapter and verse please?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Romans 10:9

For if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.   

Plain...simple...easy.    No work.


----------



## FritzMichaels

I dont see "accept" in that verse...


----------



## Ronnie T

This thread is the perfect example of what's wrong with Christ's church today.
The church is filled with ignorance.  The church is filled with people who will chose which verse is important to them and their beliefs and exclude the others.
The church is filled with people who 'suppose' that something is the gospel, then they began speaking  it as though it is.

1.  If you want to know Jesus' instructions to His apostles concerning the beginning of His church, you find it in either of the Gospel's.   
In the great commission you'll read Jesus' instructions to His apostles in that regard.

2.  If you want to get an understanding of what the apostles taught as they worked to bring people to Jesus Christ, you'll read of that in the book of Acts.
In Acts you'll find many examples of what the apostles taught and reguired of the unbelievers.
You'll find that they were all told to be baptized.
Cornelius was 'commanded' to be baptized.

3.  If you want to know the great stumbling block that was keeping the Jews from entering Jesus Christ, go to Romans 10.

And yet, we now have 6 pages in this thread of mostly Christians(?) who are able to give every reason in the book as to why a person could actually not be baptized and still be found saved by Jesus Christ.

3.  Why would any Christian be concerned with proving that Jesus didn't actually mean what He said?
Why would any Christian say baptism is nothing more than symbolic of what has already happened, when the scriptures never even elude to that?

4.  If the question of this thread asks:

"Is Baptism a refquirement for salvation?"

why isn't the answer......

..Jesus Christ commanded His apostles to baptize believers and that's what they did so why would anyone even ask the question?

It's a devisive question.
It's a question of the devil.
It's a question that invites humans to question the very commandment of Jesus in regard to the establishment of His church.

You people are not like the Christians I associate with.
I associate with Christians that have been saved by the blood of Jesus.  That have been saved by the grace and mercy of God.  Not of any good account of themselves, but by God's love along.
But these Christians don't sit around second guessing the inspired word of God.  When they read God's word they read every singly word of it and use it all.  They don't play denominational games with the doctrine.  They just accept and abide.

Teaching God's word can be a dangerous thing to do.
The teacher's words will be tested by fire.


I got to go wash my hands.


----------



## thedeacon

Ronnie T said:


> This thread is the perfect example of what's wrong with Christ's church today.
> The church is filled with ignorance.  The church is filled with people who will chose which verse is important to them and their beliefs and exclude the others.
> The church is filled with people who 'suppose' that something is the gospel, then they began speaking  it as though it is.
> 
> 1.  If you want to know Jesus' instructions to His apostles concerning the beginning of His church, you find it in either of the Gospel's.
> In the great commission you'll read Jesus' instructions to His apostles in that regard.
> 
> 2.  If you want to get an understanding of what the apostles taught as they worked to bring people to Jesus Christ, you'll read of that in the book of Acts.
> In Acts you'll find many examples of what the apostles taught and reguired of the unbelievers.
> You'll find that they were all told to be baptized.
> Cornelius was 'commanded' to be baptized.
> 
> 3.  If you want to know the great stumbling block that was keeping the Jews from entering Jesus Christ, go to Romans 10.
> 
> And yet, we now have 6 pages in this thread of mostly Christians(?) who are able to give every reason in the book as to why a person could actually not be baptized and still be found saved by Jesus Christ.
> 
> 3.  Why would any Christian be concerned with proving that Jesus didn't actually mean what He said?
> Why would any Christian say baptism is nothing more than symbolic of what has already happened, when the scriptures never even elude to that?
> 
> 4.  If the question of this thread asks:
> 
> "Is Baptism a refquirement for salvation?"
> 
> why isn't the answer......
> 
> ..Jesus Christ commanded His apostles to baptize believers and that's what they did so why would anyone even ask the question?
> 
> It's a devisive question.
> It's a question of the devil.
> It's a question that invites humans to question the very commandment of Jesus in regard to the establishment of His church.
> 
> You people are not like the Christians I associate with.
> I associate with Christians that have been saved by the blood of Jesus.  That have been saved by the grace and mercy of God.  Not of any good account of themselves, but by God's love along.
> But these Christians don't sit around second guessing the inspired word of God.  When they read God's word they read every singly word of it and use it all.  They don't play denominational games with the doctrine.  They just accept and abide.
> 
> Teaching God's word can be a dangerous thing to do.
> The teacher's words will be tested by fire.
> 
> 
> I got to go wash my hands.





AMEN!!! AMEN!!! AMEN!!

I agree with this post 100%. That is the reason that I have chosen too mostly, separate myself from this forum.

Most people are not interested in the true gospel. Just an overview of the things that suit them best or what they have been told over the years that has not Godly base.
They want feel good religion. You get that from Joel O. not God.

I heard a preacher on Sunday morning (t.v. preacher) say that all you had to do was come forward and pray the sinners prayer and you would be prayed. I am sure this man was a collage educated man and has written books that has moved him to his present status. I am also sure that he knows that the "sinners prayer" was never mentioned in the word of God. I know I looked for it.

Faith without works is dead according to James. Are you saved by works? Noooo you are not. But true faith requires action and if you do not follow the commands of the new Testament the your faith is dead. If you fail to acknowledge the commands of God then your faith is dead being alone just as the word of God says.

Do you really think that you could be a Christian if you do not love your neighbor. I don't think so. What about sharing your faith, love, compassion, forgiveness. Do you think that you could be a Christian without having a forgiving heart. I don't think so even if you did make that walk.

Instead of worring about how little you can do to be a Christian lets start trying to do as much as we can to show the world that we are Christians

11 Tim. 2:15

In like manner where unto baptism doth also save us not putting away the filth of the flesh but in answer to a good conceince TOWARD GOD.

In acts when the people ask the apostles, What shall we do to be saved? The answer was repent and be BAPTISED everyone of you for the REMISSION  of your SINS. Not because of the remission or as a show of your salvation be  FOR THE REMISSION (FORGIVENESS).


 If it wasn't necessary they wouldn't have taken the time to baptise the 3000 souls that were ADDED  to the CHURCH that day. for the REMISSION  of your SINS.



Do I believe that baptism saves, Nope? Not by its self.

Do I believe that obediance saves? ABSOLUTELY

IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.
BAPTISM IS A COMMAND, IT IS A COMMAND, LOOK AT THE SCRIPTURES PROVE ME WRONG.


----------



## thedeacon

apoint said:


> You are suppose to be born again before being dunked.
> Being immersed is being obedient to Christ. an outward sign of your inward change.
> I also believe the Holy Spirit works better in you for your obedience in baptising.
> Jesus said, if you openly confess Him, He will confess you to His Father.



I know you must have scripture for that strong statement PLEASE tell me where it says to be dunked after salvation.

As far the Holy Spirit, it says that when you are baptised you receive the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

And I can give scriptures for my believe.


----------



## thedeacon

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Romans 10:9
> 
> For if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.
> 
> Plain...simple...easy.    No work.



I know lots of people that have done just that and let me tell you they are not through. Saten has completed that task.

Even mor plain,,, simple,,, easy and true. What has everyone got against work, although baptism is not work it is a COMMAND. READ YOUR BIBLE SIR.


----------



## thedeacon

Lead Poison said:


> I am a Southern Baptist, thus my beliefs are obviously in accordance my faith.
> 
> The only requirement for salvation is accepting Jesus as your Lord and personal Savior
> 
> Baptism is _not_ a requirement for salvation.
> 
> However, one _should_ be baptized as a public profession of faith in Jesus.
> 
> I firmly believe there will be people from different _CHRISTIAN_ faiths in heaven. Those who sincerely accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior regardless of their means of baptism...dunked, sprinkled, etc.
> 
> It is all about accepting Jesus.




Are you trying to tell me that 3000 souls being baptised at one time in Acts 2 was just a public profession of faith. If it a PUBLIC profession of faith why was the jailor and his family baptised in the middle of the night.


----------



## centerpin fan

thedeacon said:


> If it a PUBLIC profession of faith why was the jailor and his family baptised in the middle of the night.



Yes, and why on earth was the Apostle Paul's baptism so private?  As far as I can tell, there was a handful of people on hand -- at the most.  It may have just been Paul and Ananias there.

If there _ever_ was an opportunity for a public profession of faith, Paul's baptism was it.  Here you have the murderous Saul of Tarsus on his way to persecute the Christians in Damascus.  Before he can complete his mission, the Lord appears to him and later Ananias baptizes him.

AND YOU KEEP THAT A SECRET?

Why didn't Paul say to Ananias, "Get baptized now?  Are you crazy?  Let's gather the church together so they can watch this persecuter of the church get baptized in front of the church!"

And "amen" to what Ronnie said.


----------



## Inthegarge

thedeacon said:


> Are you trying to tell me that 3000 souls being baptised at one time in Acts 2 was just a public profession of faith. If it a PUBLIC profession of faith why was the jailor and his family baptised in the middle of the night.



Deacon, please respond to post #251.....or do you choose to ignore it ??  Thx RW


----------



## whome

Coversion of the Ethopian Eunuch in Acts 8:26-40


----------



## Tim L

I probably have already posted this in this thread long ago and forgotten, but if not:  A long time ago a fellow that might just have known what he was talking about was preaching to a crowd of folks; the fellow was plain spoken and blunt, he didn't speak in riddles ....when he stopped the crowd asked what must we do to be saved??  The preacher told them that a person must repent and be baptized......That old preacher was Peter; as is Acts 2:38 Peter...The world will always try to tell you it isn't true and Satan will do his best to try to convince you that baptism is for everything besides what it is; Satan has a real good reason for fooling the weak that way....But I have a feeling ol Peter knew what he was talking about....Yes you have to believe, repent, and be baptized to be saved....The world (and alot of crafty folks that can spout scripture left and right with the best of them) will try to steer you away from the truth, but it was the truth 2000 years ago and its still the truth today...


----------



## thedeacon

Rouster said:


> I probably have already posted this in this thread long ago and forgotten, but if not:  A long time ago a fellow that might just have known what he was talking about was preaching to a crowd of folks; the fellow was plain spoken and blunt, he didn't speak in riddles ....when he stopped the crowd asked what must we do to be saved??  The preacher told them that a person must repent and be baptized......That old preacher was Peter; as is Acts 2:38 Peter...The world will always try to tell you it isn't true and Satan will do his best to try to convince you that baptism is for everything besides what it is; Satan has a real good reason for fooling the weak that way....But I have a feeling ol Peter knew what he was talking about....Yes you have to believe, repent, and be baptized to be saved....The world (and alot of crafty folks that can spout scripture left and right with the best of them) will try to steer you away from the truth, but it was the truth 2000 years ago and its still the truth today...



Sir you humble me with your wisdom and quite approach.


----------



## thedeacon

centerpin fan said:


> Yes, and why on earth was the Apostle Paul's baptism so private?  As far as I can tell, there was a handful of people on hand -- at the most.  It may have just been Paul and Ananias there.
> 
> If there _ever_ was an opportunity for a public profession of faith, Paul's baptism was it.  Here you have the murderous Saul of Tarsus on his way to persecute the Christians in Damascus.  Before he can complete his mission, the Lord appears to him and later Ananias baptizes him.
> 
> AND YOU KEEP THAT A SECRET?
> 
> Why didn't Paul say to Ananias, "Get baptized now?  Are you crazy?  Let's gather the church together so they can watch this persecuter of the church get baptized in front of the church!"
> 
> And "amen" to what Ronnie said.



Paul was told to arise and be baptised and wash away your sins. If Paul was saved on the road to Demascus what sins did he need to wash away? He was blind, sick and in bed the whole time between the two incidents. I do not hold to the fact that Paul was saved on the road.    

With all respect. Good post thank you


----------



## thedeacon

Inthegarge said:


> My question is what do you do when scripture says Eph 4:5 " One Lord, one faith, one baptism " and then we read 1 Cor 12:13 " For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. "
> 
> So if we are baptized into the body by the Spirit what is water baptism for?   It is a step of obedience for one who is saved... One already baptized into the Body of Christ by the Spirit.
> 
> So is water baptisim necessary for Salvation ?(OP) No, but it is necessary for obedience and to show others what happened on the inside.....JMHCO  RW





1 Cor 12:13 " For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. "

No matter who we are, when we are baptized we are baptized into one body, the Church that Christ himself established. Upon This rock I will build my church. The body of Christ, the church.

I believe that we are saved by Faith, I just believe that our faith has to involve more than just saying we believe, we must show the world and God that we believe by obeing his commands.

I agree with you until you get down to leaving our things like baptism, repentance, obediance etc. 

I don't think you simple "get saved" I think you are saved by obediance, by turning your life over to Christ, by trusting in the will of our Lord and Savior. That is what is important to Jesus.


----------



## Ronnie T

apoint said:


> Ok,OK,OK...  Jesus said to the thief on the cross, this day you will be with me in paradise.
> But first we have to get down from the cross to be emersed before you die...?????



You've got to be kidding me!
This is your response to all that has been posted in the last couple of hours?


----------



## apoint

Ronnie T said:


> You've got to be kidding me!
> This is your response to all that has been posted in the last couple of hours?



 You got it.. now answer the question I put to you please.


----------



## Ronnie T

Rouster said:


> I probably have already posted this in this thread long ago and forgotten, but if not:  A long time ago a fellow that might just have known what he was talking about was preaching to a crowd of folks; the fellow was plain spoken and blunt, he didn't speak in riddles ....when he stopped the crowd asked what must we do to be saved??  The preacher told them that a person must repent and be baptized......That old preacher was Peter; as is Acts 2:38 Peter...The world will always try to tell you it isn't true and Satan will do his best to try to convince you that baptism is for everything besides what it is; Satan has a real good reason for fooling the weak that way....But I have a feeling ol Peter knew what he was talking about....Yes you have to believe, repent, and be baptized to be saved....The world (and alot of crafty folks that can spout scripture left and right with the best of them) will try to steer you away from the truth, but it was the truth 2000 years ago and its still the truth today...



Very well put.
That's the kind of thinking we all need to have as we seek God's will in our lives.
Often times, the more we humanize God's word the more complicated it becomes to us.

It's always struck me that in Acts everyone was simply told to be baptized.  No real explanation at all.
But then, later on, in their letters, Peter and Paul gave the details of baptism several different times to those who had already been baptized.
I think there's a point there.

Sometimes we'd do a much better job of proving our faith in God if we would just do what commanded to do rather than analyzing the poo out of it.


----------



## whome

The thief on the cross was saved while old testment law was still in effect, as Jesus had not yet shed his blood on the cross. His example of salvation was not under the gospel at all... two different law, surely you are aware of that fact.


----------



## apoint

whome said:


> The thief on the cross was saved while old testment law was still in effect, as Jesus had not yet shed his blood on the cross. His example of salvation was not under the gospel at all... two different law, surely you are aware of that fact.



Surly you are wrong too. Jesus was alive when he told nicodemus he had to be born again only.. Emersion was going on when Jesus was alive and many many years before Jesus, the Jews call it the mikvah. The mikvah never got you saved.......
 Try again...


----------



## Ronnie T

Inthegarge said:


> My question is what do you do when scripture says Eph 4:5 " One Lord, one faith, one baptism " and then we read 1 Cor 12:13 " For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. "
> 
> So if we are baptized into the body by the Spirit what is water baptism for?   It is a step of obedience for one who is saved... One already baptized into the Body of Christ by the Spirit.
> 
> So is water baptisim necessary for Salvation ?(OP) No, but it is necessary for obedience and to show others what happened on the inside.....JMHCO  RW




I agree with you that there is but one New Testament baptism.
There are two times that the Bible speaks of being baptized by the Holy Spirit.
In Acts 2 as Christ's church was born, and then in Acts 10 when Peter thought back to what occurred in Acts 2.

There's two choices for the "one" baptism we live in today.    Water or Spirit.

Actually, the "one baptism" is the baptism of the great commission as dictated by Jesus Himself.  But, in that baptism two elements are found.  Water and Spirit.

Acts 2:37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 
 38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Did you see it?  In that baptism commanded by Peter, the Holy Spirit was involved and received.
One baptism.


----------



## Ronnie T

apoint said:


> Ronnie Im still waiting your answer of the thief on the cross??? Did they dunk him after he was dead or sprinkled while he was on the cross?



Okay I'm going to answer you.
The thief on the cross is normally the "last straw" reason why a person can exclude Jesus' teachings.  But the thief on the cross doesn't even apply to the subject.

*The thief on the cross … Probably the most common objection……fails on a least three points… 

1. It’s an extreme example…. The percentage of people who are saved just moments before death while nailed to a cross is pretty small

2. Jesus is God….. God can save anyone that he wants too… Jesus actually went around forgiving sins throughout the Gospels… (IE—the paralytic) and yet these others are not looked to as examples of the salvation message. 

3. The thief was actually under the Old Covenant…. Where as we are under the new covenant.. (Explained below)

Hebrews 9:15-18 
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. 16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 
17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. Heb 9:15-18 (NIV)

*There is a great disconnect between the thief and Jesus' great commission and Acts 2.  That disconnect is the death of Jesus.
When you get to heaven, look up that thief.  He's going to be the one with the biggest smile.


----------



## centerpin fan

thedeacon said:


> I do not hold to the fact that Paul was saved on the road.



I agree.


----------



## Crubear

Just out of curiosity, by which Baptism are you saved?

Isn't there an account in Acts where Paul(?) comes upon a couple men who professed their faith and received the Baptism of water, but weren't complete because they hadn't received the Baptsim of the Holy Spirit?

Or what John said •Matt. 3:11,  "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." 

Or Peter in Acts 11 - 15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?” 

Jessus didn't come to MAKE rules, he came to GIVE salvation. 

Who are we to think we can stand in God's way?


----------



## Howard Roark

no.


----------



## Lead Poison

For those wondering: Yes, I have been baptized.

The is a very good summary as to why one does not have to be baptized in order to be saved.

Please read it. 

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/13941.htm


----------



## Gabassmaster

if you believe that you have to be baptized therefore you believe there is more than one way to get to heaven.


----------



## Lead Poison

apoint said:


> I will relent to some people here will not listen to common reason because of there pride. Jesus is the only salvation, nothing else is needed.  The thief on the cross is not an exception but the rule.



Amen!


----------



## Gabassmaster

apoint said:


> I will relent to some people here will not listen to common reason because of there pride. Jesus is the only salvation, nothing else is needed.  The thief on the cross is not an exception but the rule.



*x2*


----------



## thedeacon

apoint said:


> I will relent to some people here will not listen to common reason because of there pride. Jesus is the only salvation, nothing else is needed.  The thief on the cross is not an exception but the rule.



Sir I resent your statement very much, you do not know me well enough to question my motives. 

I believe the bible with all my heart and all I say is done for the glory of God.


----------



## centerpin fan

Lead Poison said:


> For those wondering: Yes, I have been baptized.
> 
> The is a very good summary as to why one does not have to be baptized in order to be saved.
> 
> Please read it.
> 
> http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/13941.htm




The first sentence of that article says:


_“In the world today, there are a few sects and movements that think the Bible tells us that baptism is a requirement for salvation.”_


In contrast, here is what Luther wrote 500 years ago:


_“… the world is now so full of sects clamoring that Baptism is an external thing, and that external things are of no benefit...." _


We’ve come a long way in 500 years, haven’t we?


----------



## thedeacon

Ronnie T said:


> I agree with you that there is but one New Testament baptism.
> There are two times that the Bible speaks of being baptized by the Holy Spirit.
> In Acts 2 as Christ's church was born, and then in Acts 10 when Peter thought back to what occurred in Acts 2.
> 
> There's two choices for the "one" baptism we live in today.    Water or Spirit.
> 
> Actually, the "one baptism" is the baptism of the great commission as dictated by Jesus Himself.  But, in that baptism two elements are found.  Water and Spirit.
> 
> Acts 2:37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
> 38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> Did you see it?  In that baptism commanded by Peter, the Holy Spirit was involved and received.
> One baptism.



I can't improve on that.


----------



## whome

It might be worth a look at what exactly baptism does... What is the purpose of baptisms? Sure, if you look at it as nothing more than a ritual of some water, then I imagine it would hold no value. But according to God's word, it holds more significance than that.....

Romans 6:3-5
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

It takes one from without to within....
Baptism is what takes us into Jesus and his death. 

So, to make this simple... 
Baptism= into Christ
Baptism= into Christ's death
Christ's death=blood


Matthew 26:28 - For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Now, take a look at Act 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Again, let make this simple...
Christ's blood shed=Remission of sins
Baptism=Remission of sins

It holds more significance than "some outward sign of an inner faith." IT'S MORE THAN THAT. It's a shame modern 'Religion" has made baptism something that it's not, and made what was commanded an option. We are told to have faith, but we are also told to be obedient.

Baptism take us into Christ. 
Baptism unites us with him in his death. 
Baptism is where we contact his blood.
Baptism is for remission of sins.
Where else or how else would one get those without baptism?


----------



## FritzMichaels

centerpin fan said:


> The first sentence of that article says:
> 
> 
> _“In the world today, there are a few sects and movements that think the Bible tells us that baptism is a requirement for salvation.”_
> 
> 
> In contrast, here is what Luther wrote 500 years ago:
> 
> 
> _“… the world is now so full of sects clamoring that Baptism is an external thing, and that external things are of no benefit...." _
> 
> 
> We’ve come a long way in 500 years, haven’t we?



Are we just a little obsessed with luther??


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

I find it entertaining that the hardliners on here would quote and use Martin Luther as the foundation of their argument. I'm quite certain these same folks don't ascribe to the doctrine of the Lutheran Church, nor do they follow his philosophy of antisemetism. It seems to be sort of the status quo, pick and choose; you know, the same with the scriptures that serve your argument in the heat of the moment, they choose the attributes of a man that was excommunicated from the church and later became a staunch anti-semite merely because of his philosophy on what true salvation was and his translation of the Latin Bible that later became the King James version.


----------



## Ronnie T

God have mercy on us all.


----------



## FritzMichaels

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I find it entertaining that the hardliners on here would quote and use Martin Luther as the foundation of their argument. I'm quite certain these same folks don't ascribe to the doctrine of the Lutheran Church, nor do they follow his philosophy of antisemetism. It seems to be sort of the status quo, pick and choose; you know, the same with the scriptures that serve your argument in the heat of the moment, they choose the attributes of a man that was excommunicated from the church and later became a staunch anti-semite merely because of his philosophy on what true salvation was and his translation of the Latin Bible that later became the King James version.



i find it entertaining that anyone would use anything that came from luther. you'll know them by their fruits. luther had zeal without truth. people would rather worship a man than compare what he taught with the word of God to see if what he taught was any good. luther had some ok teachings but much of what he taught was deadly, such as baptismal regeneration.


----------



## Ronnie T

FritzMichaels said:


> i find it entertaining that anyone would use anything that came from luther. you'll know them by their fruits. luther had zeal without truth. people would rather worship a man than compare what he taught with the word of God to see if what he taught was any good. luther had some ok teachings but much of what he taught was deadly, such as baptismal regeneration.



Anyone would agree that the teachings of Jesus on this subject is far more important than anything anyone else has to say.


----------



## centerpin fan

Fritz and Miguel,

I’m not Lutheran, I’m not obsessed with Luther, and he is not the foundation of my argument.  Go back through this thread and the other two most recent baptism threads, and you’ll see that.  I mention him as a “last resort” and for two other reasons:

1) As I said before, I’m absolutely fascinated by how the man who started the Protestant Reformation is completely written off by many modern day Protestants.  Even you two are not dealing with what he wrote.  You just attack him personally.  I suppose this is because you simply have no reply to what he wrote, and ad hominem attacks are much easier than addressing ideas.

2) As a former Catholic priest and a well-educated man, Luther had a very good idea of what the Bible says about baptism and what the church had taught about baptism for 1500 years.  When he saw the Radical Reformers changing the doctrine of baptism to say that it is merely symbolic, he called them on it.


----------



## whome

centerpin fan said:


> Fritz and Miguel,
> 
> I’m not Lutheran, I’m not obsessed with Luther, and he is not the foundation of my argument.  Go back through this thread and the other two most recent baptism threads, and you’ll see that.  I mention him as a “last resort” and for two other reasons:
> 
> 1) As I said before, I’m absolutely fascinated by how the man who started the Protestant Reformation is completely written off by many modern day Protestants.  Even you two are not dealing with what he wrote.  You just attack him personally.  I suppose this is because you simply have no reply to what he wrote, and ad hominem attacks are much easier than addressing ideas.
> 
> 2) As a former Catholic priest and a well-educated man, Luther had a very good idea of what the Bible says about baptism and what the church had taught about baptism for 1500 years.  When he saw the Radical Reformers changing the doctrine of baptism to say that it is merely symbolic, he called them on it.



Seems to me that the people who were closer to Jesus' teaching would have an important view... Just like the game we all played as a kid where someone whispered a message to the kid next to him and so on. By the time the it got to the last kid, the message originally told was so distorted you couldn't make it out. I think that is where we are today.


----------



## FritzMichaels

centerpin fan said:


> Fritz and Miguel,
> 
> I’m not Lutheran, I’m not obsessed with Luther, and he is not the foundation of my argument.  Go back through this thread and the other two most recent baptism threads, and you’ll see that.  I mention him as a “last resort” and for two other reasons:
> 
> 1) As I said before, I’m absolutely fascinated by how the man who started the Protestant Reformation is completely written off by many modern day Protestants.  Even you two are not dealing with what he wrote.  You just attack him personally.  I suppose this is because you simply have no reply to what he wrote, and ad hominem attacks are much easier than addressing ideas.
> 
> 2) As a former Catholic priest and a well-educated man, Luther had a very good idea of what the Bible says about baptism and what the church had taught about baptism for 1500 years.  When he saw the Radical Reformers changing the doctrine of baptism to say that it is merely symbolic, he called them on it.




I dont attack him personally just that many of his teachings were wrong, like infant baptismal regeneration. He did not call anybody out on baptism (that i know of) but was calling the church out on purgatory and indulgences. Luther should be written off much more than he is. His teachings are not infallible or Scripture.


----------



## Crubear

Found this while looking for something else
Romans 10:
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”


----------



## Ronnie T

FritzMichaels said:


> I dont attack him personally just that many of his teachings were wrong, like infant baptismal regeneration. He did not call anybody out on baptism (that i know of) but was calling the church out on purgatory and indulgences. Luther should be written off much more than he is. His teachings are not infallible or Scripture.



Once again, you ignore the obvious as you peer through the filter of the things you've been taught.

You need to be willing to accept ALL scripture without tossing some to the side in favor of the others.

Baptism and salvation apart from works belong together.
Why? because both are taught!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## centerpin fan

FritzMichaels said:


> He did not call anybody out on baptism (that i know of) ...



I quoted him doing exactly that back in post #299.




FritzMichaels said:


> His teachings are not infallible or Scripture.



I agree and have said so repeatedly.


----------



## centerpin fan

whome said:


> Seems to me that the people who were closer to Jesus' teaching would have an important view...



Agreed.


----------



## whome

Crubear said:


> Found this while looking for something else
> Romans 10:
> 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”



James 2:19
Thous believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

centerpin fan said:


> Fritz and Miguel,
> 
> I’m not Lutheran, I’m not obsessed with Luther, and he is not the foundation of my argument. Go back through this thread and the other two most recent baptism threads, and you’ll see that. I mention him as a “last resort” and for two other reasons:
> 
> 1) As I said before, I’m absolutely fascinated by how the man who started the Protestant Reformation is completely written off by many modern day Protestants. Even you two are not dealing with what he wrote. You just attack him personally. *I suppose this is because you simply have no reply to what he wrote, and ad hominem attacks are much easier than addressing ideas.*
> 
> 2) As a former Catholic priest and a well-educated man, Luther had a very good idea of what the Bible says about baptism and what the church had taught about baptism for 1500 years. When he saw the Radical Reformers changing the doctrine of baptism to say that it is merely symbolic, he called them on it.


 

Hitler, Stalin and Lenin also had some valid views and philosophies, yet I prefer not to nit-pick those from the overall countenance of the person themselves merely for the sake of being right. A man's character is composed of who he is overall and by his actions, not the few sane comments he may have made over his lifetime.


----------



## Michael F. Gray

The Bible is the best commentary on itself. Rouster has posted an interesting Thesis which I suggest is based on faulty reasoning. He cites Acts 2:38 and ignores the first, and most important word in the text. "REPENT". The emphasis is not on baptism, but on REPENTANCE. Assuredly Baptism is a Christ set example we should follow. To assert it is required for Salvation ignores the example set by our Lord himself in Luke 23:39-43 when two malefactors were crucified on either side of him. One asked in humility,"Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." The Lord replied, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."  He was never baptised, ... but he did REPENT. If we would allow the HOLY SPIRT to work in the hearts of the lost, when repentance comes, baptism will follow. To assert one can't go to heaven absent baptism ignores precedent and the authority of the Savior.


----------



## Ronnie T

apoint said:


> Sounds like hammers to me.
> yes 19 to 104, NO's sounds like somebody's lost this one.



Does that mean you disagree with my statement????

"Baptism" and "salvation apart from works" belong together.
Why? because both are taught!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And unlike you, I don't base my willingness to be obedient to God based on what the majority think!
For me, there's only one vote.


----------



## Gabassmaster

like ive said before ive never read of anyone being sent to hejj because they werent baptized and they were only saved.


----------



## Ronnie T

Michael F. Gray said:


> The Bible is the best commentary on itself. Rouster has posted an interesting Thesis which I suggest is based on faulty reasoning. He cites Acts 2:38 and ignores the first, and most important word in the text. "REPENT". The emphasis is not on baptism, but on REPENTANCE. Assuredly Baptism is a Christ set example we should follow. To assert it is required for Salvation ignores the example set by our Lord himself in Luke 23:39-43 when two malefactors were crucified on either side of him. One asked in humility,"Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." The Lord replied, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."  He was never baptised, ... but he did REPENT. If we would allow the HOLY SPIRT to work in the hearts of the lost, when repentance comes, baptism will follow. To assert one can't go to heaven absent baptism ignores precedent and the authority of the Savior.



He did not ignore repent.
"Faulty reasoning!!!!"
All he did was tell of Peter's response to a request for an answer.
You're like the others.  Knee deep in tradition.


----------



## Ronnie T

apoint said:


> Sounds like hammers to me.
> yes 19 to 104, NO's sounds like somebody's lost this one.




Apoint, do you realize that you haven't provided any comment to any of the verses that deal with baptism?


----------



## THREEJAYS

It's in scripture to do it.Plain and simple.


----------



## Crubear

So now we're contradicting one set of scripture with another. I wonder who in the Spiritual Realm is celebrating this thread and who is shaking His head in disbelief?

I'm checking out, y'all keep lifting each other up in a loving meaningful way and I'll go say a few prayers.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

something I thought I'd add on baptism....

John 3:23 - And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Surely these people were being submersed if there was a need for "much water".    

Also, no where in scripture is someone baptized BEFORE coming to believe in Jesus.   (ie....babies, infants)


----------



## FritzMichaels

Ronnie T said:


> Once again, you ignore the obvious as you peer through the filter of the things you've been taught.
> 
> You need to be willing to accept ALL scripture without tossing some to the side in favor of the others.
> 
> Baptism and salvation apart from works belong together.
> Why? because both are taught!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Me and Fan were discussing Luther, i did not mention baptism being necessary, did I???

If you want to teach people they must be baptized to go to heaven thats your prerogative... i'll stick with the bible. if you're right, good for you for your discernment... if you;re wrong... Jesus will be asking you why you taught heresy. I've been baptized and converted and not really worried about it period.


----------



## centerpin fan

apoint said:


> yes 19 to 104, NO's sounds like somebody's lost this one.



Poll, shmoll.  I could have predicted the outcome before the first vote was cast.  The belief that baptism is not necessary and is merely symbolic is strictly Protestant.  All the poll proves is that most members of this board are Protestant.

It's like walking into a black neighborhood in Chicago and asking people if they think Obama is doing a good job.  The poll is suitable for entertainment purposes only.  Spiritual truth is not determined by polls.

I'm pretty sure I wrote the same thing about 200 posts ago.


----------



## Ronnie T

BANDERSNATCH said:


> something I thought I'd add on baptism....
> 
> John 3:23 - And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
> 
> Surely these people were being submersed if there was a need for "much water".
> 
> Also, no where in scripture is someone baptized BEFORE coming to believe in Jesus.   (ie....babies, infants)




I agree, not with New Testament baptism, the baptism of Jesus' commission to the apostles.


----------



## Ronnie T

FritzMichaels said:


> Me and Fan were discussing Luther, i did not mention baptism being necessary, did I???
> 
> If you want to teach people they must be baptized to go to heaven thats your prerogative... i'll stick with the bible. if you're right, good for you for your discernment... if you;re wrong... Jesus will be asking you why you taught heresy. I've been baptized and converted and not really worried about it period.



When I see Jesus He'll know that I've been baptising folks just like He commanded and just like His apostles carried out.  I don't think Jesus will accuse me of heresy.
Now He might if I taught that a person is saved by baptism in and of itself.
But I'm like you.  I know I was saved by the grace of God.  That my sins were washed by the sacrificial blood of Jesus.  And that He calls me to be His disciple.


----------



## Ronnie T

Would someone please get Bro Harris to put a lock of this thread.
For our on sake.  So we'll move on and no one can ever bring it back up again.


----------



## apoint

Ronnie T said:


> Apoint, do you realize that you haven't provided any comment to any of the verses that deal with baptism?



 Apparently you dont read my post's but thats OK .  I dont agree with the minority's doctrine here as you know.
  After this many post you have not been swayed so I dont see a need for any more opinions or any more exercise in futility. I will leave you with this, Only Jesus Baptizes with the Holy Spirit, to be born again. Born again is all that is needed to enter heaven. I will add that baptism is not to be done lite heartedly just like communion. It is a serious matter that needs to be done but not for salvation.
  I do truly understand all the arguments for your need to be immersed to get into heaven and I will respect your right to be misguided and wrong. Say good night


----------



## Ronnie T

apoint said:


> Apparently you dont read my post's but thats OK .  I dont agree with the minority's doctrine here as you know.
> After this many post you have not been swayed so I dont see a need for any more opinions or any more exercise in futility. I will leave you with this, Only Jesus Baptizes with the Holy Spirit, to be born again. Born again is all that is needed to enter heaven. I will add that baptism is not to be done lite heartedly just like communion. It is a serious matter that needs to be done but not for salvation.
> I do truly understand all the arguments for your need to be immersed to get into heaven and I will respect your right to be misguided and wrong. Say good night



I'm going to let you have that last little poke.


----------



## apoint

Ronnie T said:


> I'm going to let you have that last little poke.



How can I get the last poke if you keep posting?


----------



## 45coltcommander

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


----------



## Big7

BANDERSNATCH said:


> something I thought I'd add on baptism....
> 
> John 3:23 - And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
> 
> Surely these people were being submersed if there was a need for "much water".
> 
> Also, no where in scripture is someone baptized BEFORE coming to believe in Jesus.   (ie....babies, infants)



_RONG!_

Here's all the "Biblical" stuff you all want too..

Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39). We also read: "Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). These commands are universal, not restricted to adults. Further, these commands make clear the necessary connection between baptism and salvation, a
connection explicitly stated in 1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." 
_
CASE CLOSED!_

Read up HERE:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp


----------



## Lead Poison

Big7 said:


> _RONG!_
> 
> Here's all the "Biblical" stuff you all want too..
> 
> Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39). We also read: "Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). These commands are universal, not restricted to adults. Further, these commands make clear the necessary connection between baptism and salvation, a
> connection explicitly stated in 1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
> _
> CASE CLOSED!_
> 
> Read up HERE:
> http://www.catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp



*I respectfully disagree. The Bible does not teach infant baptism. 

Baptism is for those who are of an age of accountability.*



BANDERSNATCH said:


> something I thought I'd add on baptism....
> 
> John 3:23 - And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
> 
> Surely these people were being submersed if there was a need for "much water".
> 
> Also, no where in scripture is someone baptized BEFORE coming to believe in Jesus.   (ie....babies, infants)



*Right.*
*I agree with you Bandy!*


----------



## Gabassmaster

Lead Poison said:


> *I respectfully disagree. The Bible does not teach infant baptism.
> 
> Baptism is for those who are of an age of accountability.*
> 
> 
> 
> *Right.*
> *I agree with you Bandy!*



your perfectly right ledpoison


----------



## Ronnie T

Gabassmaster said:


> your perfectly right ledpoison



Since you, in all your years of study, are good in discerning what's perfectly right and what's perfectly wrong, would you please help me better understand Acts 2:38.
You see, Acts 2:38 is a powerful verse to me.
Please explain this verse if you would.

I mean, disect that verse and tell me why each of its words are there.

Thanks.


----------



## Tim L

I hate to say it, but on this point we are now beating a dead horse as they say...


----------



## Gabassmaster

Ronnie T said:


> Since you, in all your years of study, are good in discerning what's perfectly right and what's perfectly wrong, would you please help me better understand Acts 2:38.
> You see, Acts 2:38 is a powerful verse to me.
> Please explain this verse if you would.
> 
> I mean, disect that verse and tell me why each of its words are there.
> 
> Thanks.




ACTS 2:21 
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

ACTS: 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

 His words preceding verse 38 in acts were so convicting that his listeners were "pricked in their heart" in verse 37. So, to use verse 38 out of its context causes a misrepresentation of God's word. The verse does not stand alone, and, in fact, a totally different meaning is conveyed when one makes it stand alone.

in order to tell me a verse you better read the verse in front and the verse after... taking one single verse out of the bible a man could make anything of it


and if you pay REAL CLOSE ATTENTION..... it says "and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" any person that can read can tell that means to get baptized to wash away sins it says you must be saved to enter the kingdom of heaven... dont take the verse out of context


----------



## centerpin fan

Gabassmaster said:


> ... taking one single verse out of the bible a man could make anything of it...



You mean like when people take Romans 10:9 and build an entire doctrine on it?

Or when people take John 3:16 and build an entire doctrine on it?


----------



## Ronnie T

I agree we've beat this up pretty good.

But I would still like the brother to explain the verse as it appears there in context.

Explain it as though a younger person at church asked.

I'll do the same for any verse.  I'll take a stab at any question asked of me.


----------



## vanguard1




----------



## Gabassmaster

centerpin fan said:


> You mean like when people take Romans 10:9 and build an entire doctrine on it?
> 
> Or when people take John 3:16 and build an entire doctrine on it?



yes exactly my advice for ronnie is to Read the entire chapter of Acts.... when asked a question you need to know who is doing the talking in acts???....Jesus or humans?..... and who they were talking towards.....what about.???


----------



## Ronnie T

Gabassmaster said:


> yes exactly my advice for ronnie is to Read the entire chapter of Acts.... when asked a question you need to know who is doing the talking in acts???....Jesus or humans?..... and who they were talking towards.....what about.???



I've probably read the book of the Acts of the apostles about 3,000 times from front to back.
And I can tell you exactly who's speaking.

From the very moment Peter and the others were baptized with the Holy Spirit, all the apostles began speaking as God gave them the words (verse 4).

Every single word that Peter preached that day was given him by God Himself.
Every time Peter addressed that crowd, Peter was in complete control and accord of God Himself.

Now you read it and see if you agree.  I'll bet you do.


----------



## 45coltcommander

Rouster said:


> I hate to say it, but on this point we are now beating a dead horse as they say...



i agree


----------



## thedeacon

I have said it before and I will say it again.

You can't outpuke a buzzard!!!!!!!


----------



## Crubear

I was going to leave this, but I thought I'd try an explanation for the way I feel and the why - using an example that represents everything I feel

Next week my wife and I celebrate 25 years of marriage. On Dec 7th at 2:30 on a Saturday afternoon we exchanged our vows before God, family, and friends. When the service ended and the minister pronounced us man and wife, were we married? Before God yes, but by law - NO!!!

There was a small "ceremony" afterwords where we, the minister, and the witnesses signed a document to attest that a marriage ceremony was held and met the laws of the state we lived in. And yet, we still weren't married. The documents had to be filed in accordance with the law, which I hope the minister did. I don't know.

Now, to me, salvation is exactly like that. A marriage to Christ, where I accept Him as my Savior.
Baptism of the Spirit is where He accepts me to Him.
Baptism by Water is where I seal the covenant with my new Christian family.

John 3:16 doesn't mention Baptism, and that doesn't do away with the command to do it. The act of Baptism does not give you salvation or complete it, but it is how you signify your acceptance of it (before human witnesses). Baptism by Water is also where you as the Christian community come into covenant with the celebrant. In my church we read a response acknowledging that we have a responsibility to support, pray for, and love.


----------



## centerpin fan

Crubear said:


> I was going to leave this, but I thought I'd try an explanation for the way I feel and the why - using an example that represents everything I feel



Back in post #245, you said:



Crubear said:


> the question was if baptism was required for salvation, not what you or I feel is required or commanded


----------



## tyjohnston

im not sure if baptism is required to go into heaven or not, but Mark 16:16 says- Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


----------



## polkhunt

I am not 100 percent sure either way but if I understand history right baptism was used way before Jesus came along in order to show publicly that you had converted to Judaism so I don't see in the Bible where that changed as a requirement for conversion I still believe that it is just to  publicly show evidence of conversion. I think people can take any scripture and make it mean what they want. I can take scripture out of Romans that does not say anything about being baptized to be saved. This discussion could go on forever.


----------



## Crubear

A bit of time to chew it over, ponder, and reflect. Result, we make things way to hard on ourselves when there's an obvious answer.

Yes, Jesus said "Make disciples of all nations and baptize in My name."

Who is a disciple of Jesus and what does it mean to be one?


----------



## OntheFlyTyer

No baptism is not a requirement of salvation, God can save whomever He chooses.

However, a Christian should be baptized.


----------



## Ronnie T

Does anyone want me to respond????


----------



## apoint

OntheFlyTyer said:


> No baptism is not a requirement of salvation, God can save whomever He chooses.
> 
> However, a Christian should be baptized.



You are absolutely right brother and a 100 to 1 vote proclaims it loud and clear for all that have ears to hear.


----------



## apoint

polkhunt said:


> I am not 100 percent sure either way but if I understand history right baptism was used way before Jesus came along in order to show publicly that you had converted to Judaism so I don't see in the Bible where that changed as a requirement for conversion I still believe that it is just to  publicly show evidence of conversion. I think people can take any scripture and make it mean what they want. I can take scripture out of Romans that does not say anything about being baptized to be saved. This discussion could go on forever.



 Thats right.


----------



## apoint

Ronnie T said:


> Does anyone want me to respond????



 No need.


----------



## centerpin fan

apoint said:


> ... a 100 to 1 vote proclaims it loud and clear for all that have ears to hear.



The poll is a joke.  The outcome was a foregone conclusion.


----------



## apoint

centerpin fan said:


> The poll is a joke.  The outcome was a foregone conclusion.


 
The joke would mainly depend on your doctrin.


----------



## centerpin fan

apoint said:


> The joke would mainly depend on your doctrin.



... as would the outcome of the poll.

Hey!  We hit eight pages.


----------



## Ronnie T

I've never understood why this question was ever asked in the first place.

Why not ask one of these questions:  

Is prayer required for a person to go to heaven?
Is repentance required for a person to go to heaven?
Does a person have to publicly confess Christ in order to go to heaven?

*Is baptism a requirement for a person to go to heaven?

Why would anyone want to know?
Maybe because they don't want to have to do what Christ commanded?
Maybe because they don't believe Jesus' great commission applies to them??

Did Jesus command His apostles to teach and baptize people?  Yes He did.
Did His apostles teach and baptize people?  Yes they did.

Why would someone want to know if they had to get baptized?

As someone else asked:  Would a true believer not want to be baptized?

Isn't this one of those "no-brainer" questions and answers?


----------



## Big7

apoint said:


> The joke would mainly depend on your doctrin.



Doctrine... you mean?


----------



## Ronnie T

Queston:

Even though Jesus commanded His apostles to teach and baptize people, and even though they did it on each and every occasion that's recorded, do I have to get baptized???


----------



## Ronnie T

apoint said:


> You are absolutely right brother and a 100 to 1 vote proclaims it loud and clear for all that have ears to hear.



Speaking of polls, statistics, and beliefs.......

http://www.barna.org/culture-articles/462-six-megathemes-emerge-from-2010


----------



## OntheFlyTyer

Don’t get me wrong. I fully believe in the saving grace of baptism, it is not just some extra thing to do. As a Catholic, I was baptized at eight days old and had my original sin washed away. 

Ezekiel 36:25-27 And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols. And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit in the midst of you: and I will cause you to walk in my commandments, and to keep my judgments, and do them.

2 Kings 5:14 Then he went down, and washed in the Jordan seven times: according to the word of the man of God, and his flesh was restored, like the flesh of a little child, and he was made clean.

John 9:7 "Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.


However, I believe God may save whomever He wishes. That includes the baptized and the unbaptized, The Christian, The Jew, The Buddhist, The Muslim, The Hindi, and even The Atheist. God love is limitless a not restricted by how we believe it should be applied. 

Does this leave us off the hook? No

Can we then be lazy? No

Noticed I did not say God would save everybody, I said God could save anyone He chooses. I would not rather not risk, being one that He could save, I would rather be among those he will save.


----------



## vanguard1

baptism is not for a infant, it is for those that have accepted Jesus as lord, no where in THE BIBLE was any one baptized as a baby. and is not in the christian doctrine.
With this in view, infant baptism is not a Biblical practice. An infant cannot place his or her faith in Christ. An infant cannot make a conscious decision to obey Christ. An infant cannot understand what water baptism symbolizes. The Bible does not record any infants being baptized. Infant baptism is the origin of the sprinkling and pouring methods of baptism - as it is unwise and unsafe to immerse an infant under water. Even the method of infant baptism fails to agree with the Bible. How does pouring or sprinkling illustrate the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?



Romans 10:13 (King James Version)

 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


----------



## apoint

Ronnie T said:


> Speaking of polls, statistics, and beliefs.......
> 
> http://www.barna.org/culture-articles/462-six-megathemes-emerge-from-2010



 Thanks for proving my point. The forum pole is now overwhelming.


----------



## OntheFlyTyer

vanguard1 said:


> baptism is not for a infant, it is for those that have accepted Jesus as lord, no where in THE BIBLE was any one baptized as a baby. and is not in the christian doctrine.
> With this in view, infant baptism is not a Biblical practice. An infant cannot place his or her faith in Christ. An infant cannot make a conscious decision to obey Christ. An infant cannot understand what water baptism symbolizes. The Bible does not record any infants being baptized. Infant baptism is the origin of the sprinkling and pouring methods of baptism - as it is unwise and unsafe to immerse an infant under water. Even the method of infant baptism fails to agree with the Bible. How does pouring or sprinkling illustrate the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?
> 
> 
> 
> Romans 10:13 (King James Version)
> 
> 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.




http://www.gotquestions.org/infant-baptism.html



> Copyright Policy: While all of the material on the GotQuestions.org website is under copyright protection, the only purpose of our copyright is to make sure people copy it right. As long as you always clearly reference and/or link to www.gotquestions.org as the source of the material, you have our permission to copy, print, and distribute our material.



Infant baptism has been praticed since the early days of the Church. In fact St. Paul baptized an entire house hold, which would included infants. No where did it say he baptized everyone in the house but the infants, nor did it exclude anyone.




> Infant baptism is the origin of the sprinkling and pouring methods of baptism - as it is unwise and unsafe to immerse an infant under water.



The origin of pouring water or sprinkling water does not come from infant baptism it comes from:

_Ezekiel 36:25-27 And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols. And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit in the midst of you: and I will cause you to walk in my commandments, and to keep my judgments, and do them._

Note it says pour some translations say sprinkle


----------



## **k9**

Ac 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
 Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 
Ac 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

I certainly won't assume there were infants in the house, it certainly did not say there was.  Paul and Silas saw who was in the house when they said spoke. Also, it did not say any were babtized with water, and for sure not by brother Paul.

What did Paul and Silas tell him he had to do to be saved; Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.  That believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is for all to do in order to be saved. 

That is why they spake the word of God to ALL that were in the house.

As for as Paul baptizing them, let's ask brother Paul.


 1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

 1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1Co 1:14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 

Now as to the household of Stephanas, again no mention of an infant. This is the only household Paul baptized. Lets look at what was said about the household of Stephanas:

 1Co 16:15  I beseech you, brethren, ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,

They "the household" 
 May I submit that infants do not addict themselves to the ministry of the saints. 
Paul did not baptized any infant, as according to Paul a person that is saved has to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That believeing comes by the hearing of the word of God and receiving it.

 Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


Ro 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


1Co 1:17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

No, not the first apostle baptized any infant.  They baptized those who heard the word of God, received it and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.  NOT INFANTS, ALL MUST COME THE SAME WAY; BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND THOU SHALT BE SAVE. THAT INCLUDES ANYONE IN YOUR HOUSE. THEY MUST HEAR THE WORD OD GOD AND ALSO, BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

THERE IS NO FAMILY PASS HERE! You believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you will be saved and they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and they will be saved.  All the house will only be saved if they each believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

There are many homes today that have a saved parent/parents with lost family members in it.  Even some Godly preachers have lost children or a lost spouse in the home.  Each member must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved and they may choose to believe or choose not to believe.


----------



## Ronnie T

There's nothing but "talk" and "assumptions" when it comes to defending the "baptism isn't necessary" cause.
Flytier says Paul baptized infants even though the scriptures never say that.  Never.  

It simply cannot be justified scripturally.

I've asked the same questions about 100 times in this long thread and no one so far has attempted to answer them.

Here's one from last night:  Queston:

Even though Jesus commanded His apostles to teach and baptize people, and even though they did it on each and every occasion that's recorded, do I have to get baptized???


----------



## Gabassmaster

**k9** said:


> Ac 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
> Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
> Ac 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
> 
> I certainly won't assume there were infants in the house, it certainly did not say there was.  Paul and Silas saw who was in the house when they said spoke. Also, it did not say any were babtized with water, and for sure not by brother Paul.
> 
> What did Paul and Silas tell him he had to do to be saved; Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.  That believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is for all to do in order to be saved.
> 
> That is why they spake the word of God to ALL that were in the house.
> 
> As for as Paul baptizing them, let's ask brother Paul.
> 
> 
> 1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
> 
> 1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
> 
> 1Co 1:14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
> 
> 1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
> 
> 1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
> 
> Now as to the household of Stephanas, again no mention of an infant. This is the only household Paul baptized. Lets look at what was said about the household of Stephanas:
> 
> 1Co 16:15  I beseech you, brethren, ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,
> 
> They "the household"
> May I submit that infants do not addict themselves to the ministry of the saints.
> Paul did not baptized any infant, as according to Paul a person that is saved has to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That believeing comes by the hearing of the word of God and receiving it.
> 
> Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
> 
> 
> Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
> 
> 
> Ro 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
> 
> 
> 1Co 1:17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
> 
> No, not the first apostle baptized any infant.  They baptized those who heard the word of God, received it and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.  NOT INFANTS, ALL MUST COME THE SAME WAY; BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND THOU SHALT BE SAVE. THAT INCLUDES ANYONE IN YOUR HOUSE. THEY MUST HEAR THE WORD OD GOD AND ALSO, BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
> 
> THERE IS NO FAMILY PASS HERE! You believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you will be saved and they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and they will be saved.  All the house will only be saved if they each believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> There are many homes today that have a saved parent/parents with lost family members in it.  Even some Godly preachers have lost children or a lost spouse in the home.  Each member must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved and they may choose to believe or choose not to believe.




X2 K9 you hit the nail on the head... this infant baptizing stuff is out of the devil and so is all this associat pastor and all this other stuff and women preachers.... most people dont know in the entire book of the bible it only talks about two positions in the church, The pastor and the Decon. so i will let people have women preachers in their church and sprinkle babies and have 15 different offices in the church and have a rock band in the front but i aint havin it like you said its their choice.


----------



## **k9**

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

The word of God is pure and Jesus is the WORD.

 Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: *the words* that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


----------



## Ronnie T

**k9** said:


> Ac 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
> Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
> Ac 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
> 
> I certainly won't assume there were infants in the house, it certainly did not say there was.  Paul and Silas saw who was in the house when they said spoke. Also, it did not say any were babtized with water, and for sure not by brother Paul.
> 
> What did Paul and Silas tell him he had to do to be saved; Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.  That believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is for all to do in order to be saved.
> 
> That is why they spake the word of God to ALL that were in the house.
> 
> As for as Paul baptizing them, let's ask brother Paul.
> 
> 
> 1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
> 
> 1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
> 
> 1Co 1:14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
> 
> 1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
> 
> 1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
> 
> Now as to the household of Stephanas, again no mention of an infant. This is the only household Paul baptized. Lets look at what was said about the household of Stephanas:
> 
> 1Co 16:15  I beseech you, brethren, ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,
> 
> They "the household"
> May I submit that infants do not addict themselves to the ministry of the saints.
> Paul did not baptized any infant, as according to Paul a person that is saved has to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That believeing comes by the hearing of the word of God and receiving it.
> 
> Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
> 
> 
> Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
> 
> 
> Ro 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
> 
> 
> 1Co 1:17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
> 
> No, not the first apostle baptized any infant.  They baptized those who heard the word of God, received it and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.  NOT INFANTS, ALL MUST COME THE SAME WAY; BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND THOU SHALT BE SAVE. THAT INCLUDES ANYONE IN YOUR HOUSE. THEY MUST HEAR THE WORD OD GOD AND ALSO, BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
> 
> THERE IS NO FAMILY PASS HERE! You believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you will be saved and they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and they will be saved.  All the house will only be saved if they each believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> There are many homes today that have a saved parent/parents with lost family members in it.  Even some Godly preachers have lost children or a lost spouse in the home.  Each member must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved and they may choose to believe or choose not to believe.



Why do you suppose, when Peter was asked "What shall we do" he responded this way:

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, 
"Repent, 
and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ
 for the forgiveness of your sins; 
and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


----------



## OntheFlyTyer

Ronnie T said:


> Flytier says Paul baptized infants even though the scriptures never say that.  Never.
> 
> It simply cannot be justified scripturally.



What I said or at least should have said more explicitly was that Scripture never forbid it. It simply does not speak to the issue.




Ronnie T said:


> I've asked the same questions about 100 times in this long thread and no one so far has attempted to answer them.
> 
> Here's one from last night:  Question:
> 
> Even though Jesus commanded His apostles to teach and baptize people, and even though they did it on each and every occasion that's recorded, do I have to get baptized???



Ronnie 

I thought I answered this in post #345 & #357


----------



## Gabassmaster

Ronnie T said:


> Why do you suppose, when Peter was asked "What shall we do" he responded this way:
> 
> Acts 2:38
> Peter said to them,
> "Repent,
> and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ
> for the forgiveness of your sins;
> and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



why do you suppose it dosent say heaven right there?


----------



## Ronnie T

Gabassmaster said:


> why do you suppose it dosent say heaven right there?



Would you just answer the question about the verse.
Why did Peter respond to their question the way he did?


----------



## OntheFlyTyer

**k9** said:


> 1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
> 
> Now as to the household of Stephanas, again no mention of an infant. This is the only household Paul baptized. Lets look at what was said about the household of Stephanas:
> 
> 1Co 16:15  I beseech you, brethren, ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,
> 
> They "the household"
> May I submit that infants do not addict themselves to the ministry of the saints.
> Paul did not baptized any infant, as according to Paul a person that is saved has to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That believeing comes by the hearing of the word of God and receiving it.



This is all assumption. You assume because he does not say “infant” that there were no infants within the household. However, you do not know, you cannot know.

You place your assumptions all through scripture.

We all place our own assumptions all through scripture.

How do we remove assumptions from scripture?

How do we know which interpretation is correct?

We look to the past, we look at what has been said and believed by the generations.

We look at what has been given to us by not only by Sacred Scripture but also Sacred Tradition.


----------



## Gabassmaster

Ronnie T said:


> Would you just answer the question about the verse.
> Why did Peter respond to their question the way he did?



the verse says what it means... be baptized for forgiveness... only to cleanse the body of its sins...


----------



## Ronnie T

Gabassmaster said:


> the verse says what it means... be baptized for forgiveness... only to cleanse the body of its sins...



Thanks.


----------



## furtaker

Ronnie T said:


> Queston:
> 
> Even though Jesus commanded His apostles to teach and baptize people, and even though they did it on each and every occasion that's recorded, do I have to get baptized???



Here's another command of Jesus: "Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back" (Lk. 6:30).

Does a person have to keep this command of Jesus to be born again?


----------



## Ronnie T

brentus said:


> Here's another command of Jesus: "Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back" (Lk. 6:30).
> 
> Does a person have to keep this command of Jesus to be born again?



No.  But if Peter had said "give to everyone who asks and your sins will be forgiven and you will receive the Holy Spirit", it would have been absolutely imperitive.
But that isn't what Peter said.

Peter spoke the Gospel of Christ to them, the people ask Peter 'what must we do' and Peter responded as the Holy Spirit lead him to respond.

Peter wasn't giving them a list of commandments that they should strive to obey.
Peter was telling them how they must respond to the Gospel call.


----------



## Ronnie T

This thread has my point of view and it contains everything the Bible teaches about baptism, it's purpose, its necessity, and what God accomplishes thru it.

I have other things I must tend to and need to leave this subject behind.
I pray that all would study the subject scripturally.


----------



## Spotlite

He that believeth and is baptized...............


----------



## **k9**

Ronnie T said:


> Why do you suppose, when Peter was asked "What shall we do" he responded this way:
> 
> Acts 2:38
> Peter said to them,
> "Repent,
> and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ
> for the forgiveness of your sins;
> and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



Hello Ronnie,

I am not sure why the question, as I have no problem with scriptural baptizing.  Since it was implied that Paul baptized  infants, I responded with the following was my two points. 


1.) What is unknown to the scripture is Paul baptizing any infant.  
Also, no apostle baptized any infant. It never happened, and to assume that it did when there is no scripture to support it has led some into heresy.
My point is that those Paul baptized he mentioned in scripture and not the first infant was name. In fact he told the jailer (whom Paul did not baptize) to be saved he had to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. 


To assume that Paul baptized infants would be a mother of false doctrine.

2.) Another point that I made was that each individual must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for themselves.  I can't believe for you and you can't believe for someone else.  Each individual must hear the word of God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for themselves.

Ronnie, 
I hope you see the two points that I was making 1. No infant baptism especially by Paul and 2.) Each person must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for themselves.

 If you need more info. on something just send me a PM and I can give my phone # and we can discuss it.  However, I am almost positive you have the same scriptural position that there is no infant baptism in scripture.


----------



## vanguard1

OntheFlyTyer said:


> What I said or at least should have said more explicitly was that Scripture never forbid it. It simply does not speak to the issue.
> 
> scripture never forbid standing on your head in the snow for 7 hours, or riding a bike, or driving a car. you cannot start a doctrine on things that are not taught in the bible, unless you are goin by what a man says and not God.  and with this i,m done on this topic.


----------



## **k9**

Spotlite said:


> He that believeth and is baptized...............



The following verses are just meant to get you to study even more.  I am settled in what the scriptures say, but like to provoke others to study.


 Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
 Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

 Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: 

Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

 Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
 1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Prue water:

 Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

 Ps 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
 Ps 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


 Ps 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.


Again, the only purpose is to get someone to study the word and to be settled on the word of God, so they won't be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine.  All the best to all as we study the word of God.


----------



## Huntinfool

**k9** said:


> I am almost positive you have the same scriptural position that there is no infant baptism in scripture.



I can't believe I'm participating in the continuation of this dead horse thread.....


BUT...k9, is there anything in scripture that specifically EXCLUDES the baptism of infants?

There are lots of thou shalt not's in the Bible, no?  Don't you think that, if it was a major no-no (i.e. the near heresy that you imply) that it would have been said?  

No, there is nothing that says we shouldn't stand on our heads as vanguard so eloquently put it.  But, of course, it doesn't say that because standing on your head is not a big deal, now is it?  It doesn't exclude standing on your head because, if you do so, it doesn't affect your salvific standing.


----------



## centerpin fan

**k9** said:


> The following verses are just meant to get you to study even more.  I am settled in what the scriptures say, but like to provoke others to study.



Already been studied.

In the three most recent baptism threads, there are currently over 900 posts discussing these verses and all the others.


----------



## Ronnie T

**k9** said:


> The following verses are just meant to get you to study even more.  I am settled in what the scriptures say, but like to provoke others to study.
> 
> 
> Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
> Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
> 
> Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
> 
> Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.



Acts 2 was the fulfillment of that prophesy as Jesus sent the Holy Spirit into the apostles and into the church.
The apostles received the Holy Spirit as tongues of fire that gave them the inspiration of God Himself.
In Acts 2:38 all of the new believers received the Holy Spirit.

Those are good scripture K9.  Thanks.


----------



## jkdodge

Do you think the men on the cross next to Jesus were baptised? I bet they made it to heaven.


----------



## Ronnie T

jkdodge said:


> Do you think the men on the cross next to Jesus were baptised? I bet they made it to heaven.



Acts 2:37,38
37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 
38Peter said to them, "You don't have to do anything.  Don't you remember the thief on the cross?  Since Jesus saved the thief, nothing He commanded afterwards matters".
But that isn't what he said.

"Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


----------



## chiefsquirrel83

Ronnie T said:


> Acts 2:37,38
> 37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
> 38Peter said to them, "You don't have to do anything.  Don't you remember the thief on the cross?  Since Jesus saved the thief, nothing He commanded afterwards matters".
> But that isn't what he said.
> 
> "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



 yes sir...amen to that


----------



## Big7

vanguard1 said:


> OntheFlyTyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> and with this i,m done on this topic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I got five says you ain't.
Click to expand...


----------



## vanguard1

Big7 said:


> vanguard1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I got five says you ain't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acts 8:20 (King James Version)
> 
> 20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money
Click to expand...


----------



## centerpin fan

jkdodge said:


> Do you think the men on the cross next to Jesus were baptised? I bet they made it to heaven.



Well, one of them did.

I’ve lost count of how many times this question has come up.  Ronnie alone has addressed it several times.


----------



## Tim L

Ronnie T said:


> Acts 2:37,38
> 37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
> 38Peter said to them, "You don't have to do anything.  Don't you remember the thief on the cross?  Since Jesus saved the thief, nothing He commanded afterwards matters".
> But that isn't what he said.
> 
> "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



Exactly!  Peter was blunt and told it like it was; hard to believe so much of "the world" steadfastly refuses to accept what he said, for what he said, and will argue to the end that they know more Peter about what Peter meant than Peter himself....


----------



## apoint

jkdodge said:


> Do you think the men on the cross next to Jesus were baptised? I bet they made it to heaven.



 I not only bet I know he is in heaven. No one has came up with a legit excuse for this problem


----------



## centerpin fan

apoint said:


> I not only bet I know he is in heaven. No one has came up with a legit excuse for this problem



For 1,500 years, nobody thought the “thief on the cross” was a problem.  That’s still true for most of the Christian world.


----------



## Ronnie T

Rouster said:


> Exactly!  Peter was blunt and told it like it was; hard to believe so much of "the world" steadfastly refuses to accept what he said, for what he said, and will argue to the end that they know more Peter about what Peter meant than Peter himself....



The problem is that people refuse to "rightly divide the Word of God".
That's what I was trying to point out in post #383.

EVERYTHING changed with Jesus' death, resurrection, and that 1st Gospel sermon in Acts 2.

That man on the cross had to be circumcised, but we don't.

It was God Himself who saved that man on the cross.
Later, it was God Himself who told us to be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins.

Now, I'm not a rocket scientist, but it puzzles me that this is even a subject to be discussed.

If, after Jesus arose from the dead, he commanded His apostles to teach, and that those who believe and are baptized will be saved.  And then the apostles taught that very thing, duh!!!!     Any problem understanding that?

Rightly dividing the word of God.

Willingness to accept what it says, rather than what someone taught you otherwise.

It's there.  Either block it out with a felt tip, or teach it as Gospel.

Duh!  Duh!


----------



## Ronnie T

apoint said:


> I not only bet I know he is in heaven. No one has came up with a legit excuse for this problem



I agree, and no one has come up with a legit excuse for a Gospel teacher to teach anything other than what Jesus commanded concerning baptism, and what His apostles also taught.  Including you and I.

If Peter said:  "Be baptized for forgiveness of sins."
If Paul was told:  Arise and be baptized to wash away your sins".......... it must be acknowledged and accepted and studied and come to terms with.

A person either accepts the full Gospel of Christ, or they pick and choose what best supports their theology.

apoint, in you very next comment I'd like to ask you to type out Acts 2:38.  Not to cut and paste, but type it out.  Then take responsibility for it.

I suggest any Christian who does not believe Acts 2:38 to type it out publicly.


----------



## Joker

the thief on the cross was never baptized and I'm sure he is in heaven today (The Bible tells me so)  
Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> The problem is that people refuse to "rightly divide the Word of God".
> That's what I was trying to point out in post #383.
> 
> EVERYTHING changed with Jesus' death, resurrection, and that 1st Gospel sermon in Acts 2.
> 
> That man on the cross had to be circumcised, but we don't.
> 
> It was God Himself who saved that man on the cross.
> Later, it was God Himself who told us to be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins.
> 
> Now, I'm not a rocket scientist, but it puzzles me that this is even a subject to be discussed.
> 
> If, after Jesus arose from the dead, he commanded His apostles to teach, and that those who believe and are baptized will be saved.  And then the apostles taught that very thing, duh!!!!     Any problem understanding that?
> 
> Rightly dividing the word of God.
> 
> Willingness to accept what it says, rather than what someone taught you otherwise.
> 
> It's there.  Either block it out with a felt tip, or teach it as Gospel.
> 
> Duh!  Duh!



Well said, Ronnie.  How many times have you explained that now?  I'm thinking half a dozen times, at least.


----------



## Ronnie T

394 comments on a subject that is commanded.

People obviously don't seriously read their Bibles and they haven't read all the posts under this thread.

I plan don't understand.


----------



## Ronnie T

Joker said:


> the thief on the cross was never baptized and I'm sure he is in heaven today (The Bible tells me so)
> Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."



True.    So what????

Jesus also brought back to life the son of a widow.  Why hasn't He  raised any of your relatives from the dead?

Why hasn't He raised any of your relatives from the dead?

The same applied to that thief on the cross and baptism.

Why did Jews have to be circumcised and we don't?  Same applied to baptism.

and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.


----------



## Crubear

The discussion isn't over what's commanded, none of us deny that Baptismn is a sacrament believers are supposed to do as an act of obedience.  As is foot washing, turning the other cheek, mercy, and the number one forgotten commandment - loving one another as Jesus loved us.

We just disagree that it's a requirement for salvation.


----------



## centerpin fan

Crubear said:


> The discussion isn't over what's commanded, none of us deny that Baptismn is a sacrament believers are supposed to do as an act of obedience.  As is foot washing, turning the other cheek, mercy, and the number one forgotten commandment - loving one another as Jesus loved us.



All are good, but none are mentioned by Peter in Acts 2 or by Jesus in Matthew 28 or Mark 16.  Baptism, however, is _specifically mentioned_ in each of those passages.


----------



## Ronnie T

Crubear said:


> The discussion isn't over what's commanded, none of us deny that Baptismn is a sacrament believers are supposed to do as an act of obedience.  As is foot washing, turning the other cheek, mercy, and the number one forgotten commandment - loving one another as Jesus loved us.
> 
> We just disagree that it's a requirement for salvation.



I appreciate your thoughts on this but I'd like to ask you a thought provoking question about the subject.

What is there in Jesus' commission to his apostles and in Peters words of Acts 2:38 that cause you to believe baptism is only a sacrament???

Peter said:  repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.

Ananias told Paul:  Arise and be baptized to wash away your sins.

Nothing in the Bible says it's a sacrement.


*Why doesn't everyone just say that "Yes, baptism is commanded and must be complied with, but if the person dies on the way to the water, I believe that person will be saved"?????.


----------



## Crubear

"Only a Sacrament" ???? So you feel the same way about marriage, communion, ordination, etc? Poor choice of words.

and we've been saying Baptism is commanded, of a believer/disciple/Christian. 

Salvation is a gift given by God to those who accept Him as their Lord and Savior. It is the first step we take in becoming obedient to God. It isn't earned or "aquired" through any other act.

The thing that makes me "Ponder" is why we stress the act and not the change?

Acts 19 -- Paul in Ephesus
 1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” 
   They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 

 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” 

   “John’s baptism,” they replied. 

 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.


----------



## farmasis

*<SUP>21</SUP>* There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 3)

This is pretty clear to me that it ain't the dunking in the water that saves us, but receiving the spiritual cleansing through faith.

A dirty sinner that enters water is a clean sinner.


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> ... it ain't the dunking in the water that saves us ...



... although that is exactly what the passage says:


"... baptism now saves you ..." - NASB

" ...baptism that now saves you also ..." - NIV

"... Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you ..." - ESV


----------



## farmasis

centerpin fan said:


> ... although that is exactly what the passage says:
> 
> 
> "... baptism now saves you ..." - NASB
> 
> " ...baptism that now saves you also ..." - NIV
> 
> "... Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you ..." - ESV


 
I give all credit to the spiritual baptism that must happen first. I think I would feel more confident having to explain my position to God that through his word I found more power from faith through the shed blood of his son than I did in water. I mean, John baptised with water before Jesus and no salvation was found in that.


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> I give all credit to the spiritual baptism that must happen first.



... despite the fact that Peter is clearly talking about water baptism?  Back up one verse where he says this:  

"... the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also ..."

Remember, this is the same Peter who preached "Repent, and be baptized" in Acts 2 and then watched 3,000 people get baptized in water.




farmasis said:


> ... John baptised with water before Jesus and no salvation was found in that.



No one is baptized with John's baptism today.  However, in His last words to His disciples, Jesus said:

"... Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ..."


----------



## farmasis

centerpin fan said:


> ... despite the fact that Peter is clearly talking about water baptism?


 
He absoluetly is not. He makes sure he says not water that removes dirt from flesh but the clear conscience toward God (faith).



> Remember, this is the same Peter who preached "Repent, and be baptized" in Acts 2 and then watched 3,000 people get baptized in water.


 
Did I say not to be baptised? 



> No one is baptized with John's baptism today.


 
Wish that were true, however lots still going on today. Not being dunked in water without being washed by the blood, that is what you have.


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> He absoluetly is not.



Statements like this just leave me shaking my head in disbelief.  This thread is its own little "Bizarro" world:  black is white, left is right, and up is down.  In this case, you believe a passage that mentions "water" and "baptism" is not talking about water baptism.  Further, a passage that states "baptism now saves you" absolutely, positively does not mean that.






farmasis said:


> He makes sure he says not water that removes dirt from flesh but the clear conscience toward God (faith).



No, he's just explaining how baptism saves us.  Baptism is not "water that removes dirt from flesh" (a bath.)  Baptism is the appeal to God for a clear conscience.  I'll paraphrase Tertullian:  baptism is a physical act with spiritual benefits.




farmasis said:


> Not being dunked in water without being washed by the blood, that is what you have.



There is no conflict between the water and the blood (which is what I said in that thread.)


----------



## farmasis

centerpin fan said:


> Statements like this just leave me shaking my head in disbelief.


 
I know what you mean...

Maybe we should find what makes water baptism different from a bath.

_Baptism is the appeal to God for a clear conscience._

Sounds kinda like a baptism of the spirit....seems that the faith makes the difference between what John did and what we should do now. The water didn't change.


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> Maybe we should find what makes water baptism different from a bath.



Well, let's see ...

One was mentioned by Jesus in his final words on this earth.  One was not.

One was mentioned by Peter in his sermon on Pentecost.  One was not.

Look, if you actually believe that 1 Peter 3 is not talking about water baptism, I really don't know what else I can say.  I'll try, though  (deep sigh.)




farmasis said:


> Sounds kinda like a baptism of the spirit....seems that the faith makes the difference between what John did and what we should do now. The water didn't change.



You (and the other "no" votes) keep trying to drive a wedge between faith and baptism, where no wedge exists.  I'll let Tertullian respond.  Please don't take offense at being called a "miscreant".  It's him saying that, not me.


_Here, then, those miscreants provoke questions. And so they say, "Baptism is not necessary for them to whom faith is sufficient; for withal, Abraham pleased God by a sacrament of no water, but of faith." But in all cases it is the later things which have a conclusive force, and the subsequent which prevail over the antecedent. Grant that, in days gone by, there was salvation by means of bare faith, before the passion and resurrection of the Lord. But now that faith has been enlarged, and is become a faith which believes in His nativity, passion, and resurrection, there has been an amplification added w the sacrament, viz., the sealing act of baptism; the clothing, in some sense, of the faith which before was bare, and which cannot exist now without its proper law. For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: "Go," He saith, "teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." The comparison with this law of that definition, "Unless a man have been reborn of water and Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of the heavens,"  has tied faith to the necessity of baptism. Accordingly, all thereafter  who became believers used to be baptized. Then it was, too,  that Paul, when he believed, was baptized; and this is the meaning of the precept which the Lord had given him when smitten with the plague of loss of sight, saying, "Arise, and enter Damascus; there shall be demonstrated to thee what thou oughtest to do," to wit'be baptized, which was the only thing lacking to him. That point excepted, he bad sufficiently learnt and believed "the Nazarene" to be "the Lord, the Son of God."_




farmasis said:


> Sounds kinda like a baptism of the spirit....



How many baptisms are in the New Testament (keeping in mind that Paul told the Ephesians that there is one)?

Also, I tried this a couple hundred posts ago and didn't get a response, so I'll try again:  which baptism verses are the essential, salvific "spirit baptism" verses, and which are the non-essential, purely symbolic, "it's-a-good-thing-to-do-if-you -get-the-chance"  water baptism verses?


----------



## Ronnie T

One thing not seen in John's baptism that is seen in New Testament baptism is God's grace.
The work of God.  The Power of God.
In baptism today, we see our death and resurrection as new being in Jesus Christ.

None of those existed at John's baptism.


----------



## farmasis

centerpin fan said:


> Well, let's see ...
> 
> One was mentioned by Jesus in his final words on this earth. One was not.
> 
> One was mentioned by Peter in his sermon on Pentecost. One was not.
> 
> Look, if you actually believe that 1 Peter 3 is not talking about water baptism, I really don't know what else I can say. I'll try, though (deep sigh.)


 
It is only one baptism and it is in the Spirit.

If you don't have the profession of faith and you enter any water you are just going to get wet. The magic is not in the water.

*<SUP>13</SUP>*For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12)



> You (and the other "no" votes) keep trying to drive a wedge between faith and baptism, where no wedge exists. I'll let Tertullian respond. Please don't take offense at being called a "miscreant". It's him saying that, not me.


 
Again...without faith there is no baptism. That is why John's baptism did not save.
<SUP id=en-NKJV-29925 class=versenum>*5*</SUP> not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,(Titus 3)





> Also, I tried this a couple hundred posts ago and didn't get a response, so I'll try again: which baptism verses are the essential, salvific "spirit baptism" verses, and which are the non-essential, purely symbolic, "it's-a-good-thing-to-do-if-you -get-the-chance" water baptism verses?


 
*<SUP>36</SUP>* Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, _here is_ water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 
<SUP id=en-NKJV-27210 class=versenum>*37*</SUP> Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” 
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”<SUP class=footnote value='[c]'>[c]</SUP>
<SUP id=en-NKJV-27211 class=versenum>*38*</SUP> So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. (Acts 8)

What would have happened if the eunuch said, "Well, I don't think Jesus is the son of God, but I want to get baptised?" and headed into the water?


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> It is only one baptism and it is in the Spirit.
> No one in the New Testament was ever commanded to be baptized in the Spirit.  God takes care of that.
> 
> If you don't have the profession of faith and you enter any water you are just going to get wet. The magic is not in the water.   True.  An unsaved wet person.
> 
> *<SUP>13</SUP>*For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12)
> 
> 
> 
> Again...without faith there is no baptism. That is why John's baptism did not save.  I agree.
> 
> <SUP id=en-NKJV-29925 class=versenum>*5*</SUP> not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,(Titus 3)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *<SUP>36</SUP>* Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, _here is_ water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
> <SUP id=en-NKJV-27210 class=versenum>*37*</SUP> Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
> And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”<SUP class=footnote value='[c]'>[c]</SUP>
> <SUP id=en-NKJV-27211 class=versenum>*38*</SUP> So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. (Acts 8)
> 
> What would have happened if the eunuch said, "Well, I don't think Jesus is the son of God, but I want to get baptised?" and headed into the water?
> I'd hope he took soap with him.  No salvation without the faith included.



Merry Christmas.


----------



## farmasis

Ronnie T said:


> Merry Christmas.


 
Haha...I was logging on to say the same thing to end the banter!


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> It is only one baptism and it is in the Spirit.



This is the second most surprising thing I've read today, right after "1 Peter 3 baptism is not water baptism."  But, I guess they go hand-in-hand.

So what is water baptism?  Feel free to check my math, but spirit baptism plus water baptism equals two baptisms.




farmasis said:


> If you don't have the profession of faith and you enter any water you are just going to get wet.



I agree.




farmasis said:


> without faith there is no baptism.



I agree.




farmasis said:


> 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,(Titus 3)



Two questions ...

1)  Where does it say in scripture that water baptism is a "work of righteousness"?

2)  Do you believe the "washing of regeneration" refers to something other than water baptism?  (As I ask this question, I am preparing myself to read the third most surprising thing I've read all day.)




farmasis said:


> What would have happened if the eunuch said, "Well, I don't think Jesus is the son of God, but I want to get baptised?" and headed into the water?



Well, I don't know why he or anybody else would do that, but he would just be getting wet.  Belief is the first step, but it is not the only step, as Jesus makes abundantly clear in Mark 16:16, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved ..."


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> Haha...I was logging on to say the same thing to end the banter!



I'll be no less the gentleman ... Merry Christmas to you and to all those joining us at home.


----------



## farmasis

centerpin fan said:


> This is the second most surprising thing I've read today, right after "1 Peter 3 baptism is not water baptism." But, I guess they go hand-in-hand.
> 
> So what is water baptism? Feel free to check my math, but spirit baptism plus water baptism equals two baptisms.


 
Water baptism is a symbolic representation of the only baptism that saves you.


> Two questions ...
> 
> 1) Where does it say in scripture that water baptism is a "work of righteousness"?
> 
> 2) Do you believe the "washing of regeneration" refers to something other than water baptism? (As I ask this question, I am preparing myself to read the third most surprising thing I've read all day.)


 
1) *<SUP>13</SUP>* Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. <SUP id=en-NKJV-23203 class=versenum>*14*</SUP> And John _tried to_ prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?” 
<SUP id=en-NKJV-23204 class=versenum>*15*</SUP> But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit _it to be so_ now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” (Matt. 3)

2) Yes, spiritual regeneration. Sorry if that surprises you. John the Baptist understood it well.
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-24220 class=versenum>*8*</SUP> I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” (Mark 1)



> Well, I don't know why he or anybody else would do that, but he would just be getting wet. Belief is the first step, but it is not the only step, as Jesus makes abundantly clear in Mark 16:16, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved ..."


 
Let's finish the verse shall we....

_ but whoever does not believe will be condemned._

Hence faith is the part that saves you. Funny it doesn't say whoever believes but doesn't get baptized will be comdemned.


----------



## No. GA. Mt. Man

Only if Jesus lied the thief on the Cross.


----------



## Ronnie T

No. GA. Mt. Man said:


> Only if Jesus lied the thief on the Cross.



Does that mean the New Testament teaching concerning baptism is a lie????
And who lied about it??  Jesus?  His Apostles??


----------



## No. GA. Mt. Man

Ronnie T said:


> Does that mean the New Testament teaching concerning baptism is a lie????
> And who lied about it??  Jesus?  His Apostles??



Jesus told him today you shall be with me in paradise. I believe Jesus and have never read where they had a time out from the cruxification to baptize the thief. Course I'm not a scholar like some are.


----------



## Ronnie T

No. GA. Mt. Man said:


> Jesus told him today you shall be with me in paradise. I believe Jesus and have never read where they had a time out from the cruxification to baptize the thief. Course I'm not a scholar like some are.



I'm sorry, but you didn't answer the question.

_Does that mean the New Testament teaching concerning baptism is a lie????
And who lied about it?? Jesus? His Apostles??_


----------



## farmasis

Ronnie T said:


> I'm sorry, but you didn't answer the question.
> 
> _Does that mean the New Testament teaching concerning baptism is a lie????_
> _And who lied about it?? Jesus? His Apostles??_


 
Baptism that saves ain't about water...

Jesus said:

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (John 5)


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis, as I've personally said, probably 25 times on this thread alone, nothing you can say or suggest will ever change what Jesus told His apostles in Matt 28:19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
And Mark 16:16" He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. And Acts 2:38, where the Spirit filled Peter instituted baptism (water) in the Christian church.

I believe in everything concerning salvation as you do.  We're cross-talking each other.  We're in total agreement.  Except:  I don't downplay the importance of New Testament water baptism.

I don't down play it because nothing in the scriptures down plays it.
As a matter of fact, the Bible never considers the possibility of an unbaptized believer.

If you'll make the above scriptures go away, we'll stop this endless thread that I swear is going to continue on for the rest of my life.
I hope no other person will ever make another post to this thread.
Let it go.
But I'm so afraid an unbeliever might read someone's post and begin to believe they can just not believe parts of what the Bible says since there are so many in this thread who seem to be saying that.
So I'll continue to respond when I feel it necessary.


----------



## polkhunt

Ronnie,  I respect what you believe and would never tell anyone that they are wrong because I think we all believe in our heart that what we believe is right. The scripture you use in Mark is no less important than Romans 10:9.


----------



## centerpin fan

Sorry I'm just getting back to you.  I took Christmas off. 




farmasis said:


> Water baptism is a symbolic representation of the only baptism that saves you..



What passage of scripture says that baptism is merely symbolic?  

And what person or group from approximately 100 AD to approximately 1500 AD believed and taught that?  (I understand that you believe the apostles taught that.)




farmasis said:


> 1) *<SUP>13</SUP>* Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. <SUP id=en-NKJV-23203 class=versenum>*14*</SUP> And John _tried to_ prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”
> <SUP id=en-NKJV-23204 class=versenum>*15*</SUP> But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit _it to be so_ now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” (Matt. 3)..



This passage has nothing to do with my question.




farmasis said:


> 2) Yes, spiritual regeneration. Sorry if that surprises you. John the Baptist understood it well.
> <SUP id=en-NKJV-24220 class=versenum>*8*</SUP> I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” (Mark 1)).



I'm not so much surprised as stunned (as would anyone living before the Reformation.)  The "washing of regeneration" is not water baptism and 1 Peter 3 is not water baptism?

Wow.  Just wow.

Also, John's baptism is not the same as Jesus' baptism.





farmasis said:


> Let's finish the verse shall we....
> 
> _ but whoever does not believe will be condemned._
> 
> Hence faith is the part that saves you.



This is classic eisegesis:  reading your own beliefs into the scripture.  As I said before, belief is the first step but it is not the only step.  If belief were the only step, Jesus wouldn't have mentioned baptism at all, and Peter wouldn't have mentioned it in Acts 2, and the Ethiopian eunuch wouldn't have said "Look, here is water!  Why can't I be baptized?"




farmasis said:


> Funny it doesn't say whoever believes but doesn't get baptized will be comdemned.



Why would He?  He had just stated the affirmative:  "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved".  Saying this:



farmasis said:


> ... whoever believes but doesn't get baptized will be comdemned.



... just doesn't make any sense at that point.


----------



## centerpin fan

No. GA. Mt. Man said:


> Only if Jesus lied the thief on the Cross.



New guys need to read some of the previous posts.  

This argument came up twice on page 8 alone.


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (John 5)



Maybe "belief" does not mean "belief".  After all, you said the "water" in 1 Peter 3 is not really "water".


----------



## centerpin fan

polkhunt said:


> The scripture you use in Mark is no less important than Romans 10:9.



Very true, but the man who wrote Romans 10:9 also wrote Romans 6:3-5, Titus 3:5, Galations 3:26-27,  and Colossians 2:12.

He's also the man who Ananias told:  "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."


----------



## farmasis

centerpin fan said:


> Maybe "belief" does not mean "belief". After all, you said the "water" in 1 Peter 3 is not really "water".


 

You can believe in the power of water for salvation..I'll believe in faith.


----------



## farmasis

Ronnie T said:


> farmasis, as I've personally said, probably 25 times on this thread alone, nothing you can say or suggest will ever change what Jesus told His apostles in Matt 28:19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
> And Mark 16:16" He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. And Acts 2:38, where the Spirit filled Peter instituted baptism (water) in the Christian church.
> 
> I believe in everything concerning salvation as you do. We're cross-talking each other. We're in total agreement. Except: I don't downplay the importance of New Testament water baptism.
> 
> I don't down play it because nothing in the scriptures down plays it.
> As a matter of fact, the Bible never considers the possibility of an unbaptized believer.
> 
> If you'll make the above scriptures go away, we'll stop this endless thread that I swear is going to continue on for the rest of my life.
> I hope no other person will ever make another post to this thread.
> Let it go.
> But I'm so afraid an unbeliever might read someone's post and begin to believe they can just not believe parts of what the Bible says since there are so many in this thread who seem to be saying that.
> So I'll continue to respond when I feel it necessary.


 
I don't want baptism in water to go away, I am all for it. I just do not think it is a part of salvation. Salvation is not a process to me. Baptism is not magical and does not regenerate the soul. If you are lost before you go into the water, you are lost and wet coming out.


----------



## farmasis

centerpin fan said:


> What passage of scripture says that baptism is merely symbolic?


 
1 Peter 3:21. Again, this passage says that baptism that saves is not be water.




> And what person or group from approximately 100 AD to approximately 1500 AD believed and taught that? (I understand that you believe the apostles taught that.)


 
In my opinion, anyone who rightly divides.




> This passage has nothing to do with my question.


 
 It had everything to do with it. Jesus himself called it a work of righteousness.



> I'm not so much surprised as stunned (as would anyone living before the Reformation.) The "washing of regeneration" is not water baptism and 1 Peter 3 is not water baptism?


 
Let Matthew Henry further "stun" you.

 Noah's salvation in the ark upon the water, which carried him above the floods, set forth the salvation of all true believers. That temporal salvation by the ark was a type of the eternal salvation of believers by baptism of the Holy Spirit. To prevent mistakes, the apostle declares what he means by saving baptism; not the outward ceremony of washing with water, which, in itself, does no more than put away the filth of the flesh, but that baptism, of which the baptismal water formed the sign. Not the outward ordinance, but when a man, by the regeneration of the Spirit, was enabled to repent and profess faith, and purpose a new life, uprightly, and as in the presence of God. Let us beware that we rest not upon outward forms. Let us learn to look on the ordinances of God spiritually, and to inquire after the spiritual effect and working of them on our consciences. We would willingly have all religion reduced to outward things. But many who were baptized, and constantly attended the ordinances, have remained without Christ, died in their sins, and are now past recovery. Rest not then till thou art cleansed by the Spirit of Christ and the blood of Christ. His resurrection from the dead is that whereby we are assured of purifying and peace.



> Also, John's baptism is not the same as Jesus' baptism.


 
Correct! Because people have access to faith to be saved.

 [/QUOTE]This is classic eisegesis: reading your own beliefs into the scripture.[/QUOTE] 

Hello pot.



> As I said before, belief is the first step but it is not the only step. If belief were the only step, Jesus wouldn't have mentioned baptism at all, and Peter wouldn't have mentioned it in Acts 2, and the Ethiopian eunuch wouldn't have said "Look, here is water! Why can't I be baptized?"


 
Any other steps in your salvation process?


----------



## Tim L

farmasis said:


> You can believe in the power of water for salvation..I'll believe in faith.



Fella remember when you make a remark like that; your doing the bidding of Satan; whether intentionally or not; your basically saying the apostle Peter was full of crap....Peter was blunt and didn't speak in riddles...but thats not good enough for these liberals and churches of the world that are basically just full of people playing church.....If I had said some of the things you have said on here; well..............................let me suggest this; forget  all these preachers that have told you something like "this is what the bible says, but this is what it really means" and read the bible with an open heart. no preconceived denomentaional binders; and read it like your reading it for the first time.....read Acts 2:38 like your reading it for the first time and remember, Peter was a simple, blunt man who said what he meant....a man that walked and talked with Jesus.....Now Satan is going to go all apecrap if you do that and is going to be whispering in your ear "what about the thief on the cross" what about about.............................whatever......but if you can get past denomenationalism and what some liberal preacher has told you your supposed to believe, well.....just take it for what it actually says.....


----------



## gtparts

farmasis said:


> I don't want baptism in water to go away, I am all for it. I just do not think it is a part of salvation. Salvation is not a process to me. Water baptism is not magical and does not regenerate the soul. If you are lost before you go into the water, you are lost and wet coming out.



Fixed it for you.

I must say I am one of the 140+ who agree with you. When scriptures seem to be in conflict, it is usually because we fail to understand one or both passages due to poor translation, original lack of clarity, or our own prejudice.

But we can be confidant that when two passages convey the same information, yet one includes additional information, not existent in the other, that information demands closer examination. It is difficult to consider the very heart of God would exclude all "death-bed conversions" based on whether water baptism was ritually observed. Can anyone certify unequivocally (other than God) that all such conversions are totally bogus? Are they still condemned?
I think it is clearly scriptural to seek water baptism as soon after receiving God's free gift of salvation as possible and is therefor intimately tied to salvation, an action that gives testimony to a transformed life and brings great joy to the Father through the obedience of His child. 

Even so, I do not see it as essential to God working that transformation within the believer. We have written evidence of OT people receiving salvation by faith (the same way anyone receives eternal life) and appearing in NT times. There is no evidence that they were baptized with water. The term, "baptism", is often used as a parallel to the concept of being "born again". The first birth, physical birth, is a type of "water baptism". The second birth is the direct result of being "born of the Spirit", but is not consistent with "water baptism" in every case. The "second birth" is always understood to be the very Spirit of God indwelling the believer. Jesus took a special interest in explaining this to Nicodemus, yet it seems to be overlooked when we "speak" of baptism.

At any rate, have a blessed day in the Lord. I have every confidence that God will keep His promise to every believer, water baptized or not.


----------



## farmasis

Rouster said:


> Fella remember when you make a remark like that; your doing the bidding of Satan; whether intentionally or not; your basically saying the apostle Peter was full of crap....Peter was blunt and didn't speak in riddles...but thats not good enough for these liberals and churches of the world that are basically just full of people playing church.....If I had said some of the things you have said on here; well..............................let me suggest this; forget all these preachers that have told you something like "this is what the bible says, but this is what it really means" and read the bible with an open heart. no preconceived denomentaional binders; and read it like your reading it for the first time.....read Acts 2:38 like your reading it for the first time and remember, Peter was a simple, blunt man who said what he meant....a man that walked and talked with Jesus.....Now Satan is going to go all apecrap if you do that and is going to be whispering in your ear "what about the thief on the cross" what about about.............................whatever......but if you can get past denomenationalism and what some liberal preacher has told you your supposed to believe, well.....just take it for what it actually says.....


 

Lol..if you say so. 
Now I am listening to the devil and do not understand the Bible because I let my liberal pastor hinder my discernment. 
I guess this where I bow out of the conversation with you to prevent me from going down that road.


----------



## farmasis

gtparts said:


> Fixed it for you.


 
Thanks, of course that is what I meant.


----------



## farmasis

Riddle me this faith in water believers.....you want to discount what Jesus promised the theif on the cross... so

Is anyone in heaven before the death of Jesus?

if so, how? Did Jesus descend and set up a baptistry to complete their justification?


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> 1 Peter 3:21. Again, this passage says that baptism that saves is not be water.


 
Completely wrong.  It says the waters of the ark "symbolizes baptism that now saves you also ..."  It's not written in code.  It's there in black and white.




farmasis said:


> In my opinion, anyone who rightly divides.?


 
So, you can't even name one person? 




farmasis said:


> It had everything to do with it. Jesus himself called it a work of righteousness.?



Again, you're just reading what you believe into the passage.




farmasis said:


> Let Matthew Henry further "stun" you.



I'm not stunned that a Protestant like Henry believes Protestant doctrine.  Luther didn't believe this.  It was the reformers who came after Luther who started it. 




farmasis said:


> Hello pot.?



They're not my beliefs.  It's what was believed and taught everywhere.  No one taught differently until the Reformation.




farmasis said:


> Any other steps in your salvation process?



Jesus only listed two.  I will not add to or subtract from that amount.


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> Riddle me this faith in water believers.....you want to discount what Jesus promised the theif on the cross... so



You completely misunderstand our position.  We don't have "faith in water".  We have faith in God which entails doing what He tells us.


----------



## farmasis

centerpin fan said:


> You completely misunderstand our position. We don't have "faith in water". We have faith in God which entails doing what He tells us.


 
You believe water baptism is important, I do to.
We both believe that is taught in the Bible and for obedience to God we should do it.
We differ in that you (correct me if I am wrong) completes a salvation process and I believe a believer is saved before going into the pool.
I know I was being a little antagonistic, but obviously you believe that something happens in the water and I think it is merely obedience and symbolic of the cleansing that the Holy Spirit does within.

OK, that out of the way...how does anyone before Jesus see heaven?


----------



## Ronnie T

Everything in God's word will work effectively in each person's life if they will simply read it; heed it; and live it.

We spend too much time "analyzing" things.

Read it;  Heed it;  get out and go God's work He's prepared for us.

Death bed conversions.  I'll leave those to God, as I do all other things.  Even to a persons last breathe one should  be given the chance to accept and acknowledge Jesus Christ.

Now,
Does a person really have to go to church to be a Christian?
What if they accepted Christ on Friday but died on Saturday, they didn't get to go to church.
Can a person go to heaven if they hate grape juice and refuse to drink it during communion?
Can a person be saved if they never personally pray?

To many answers to questions that shouldn't have even been asks.


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> Riddle me this faith in water believers.....you want to discount what Jesus promised the theif on the cross... so
> 
> Is anyone in heaven before the death of Jesus?
> 
> if so, how? Did Jesus descend and set up a baptistry to complete their justification?



Rightly dividing the word means that you understand there are periods of time in the history of the creation.
Answer this:  Why don't we have to offer sacrifices for our sins in the temple?  You'll answer:  things have changed.
And that's my answer to you.  When Jesus brought water baptism into the picture, it was here.  It wasn't here before, but it is now.  None of my business about the salvation of those before Jesus brought baptism.  My concern is for now.

That is, unless I'm trying to destroy Jesus' teaching!!!!!!!
Then I might try to use every reason under the sun.

I think I'm done with you with this subject.  I can't deal with absurd points being brought into the discussion.


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> OK, that out of the way...how does anyone before Jesus see heaven?



I can't say it any better than Tertullian said it about 19 centuries ago:

_Grant that, in days gone by, there was salvation by means of bare faith, before the passion and resurrection of the Lord. But now that faith has been enlarged, and is become a faith which believes in His nativity, passion, and resurrection, there has been an amplification added w the sacrament, viz., the sealing act of baptism; the clothing, in some sense, of the faith which before was bare, and which cannot exist now without its proper law. For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: "Go," He saith, "teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." The comparison with this law of that definition, "Unless a man have been reborn of water and Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of the heavens," has tied faith to the necessity of baptism. Accordingly, all thereafter who became believers used to be baptized. Then it was, too, that Paul, when he believed, was baptized; and this is the meaning of the precept which the Lord had given him when smitten with the plague of loss of sight, saying, "Arise, and enter Damascus; there shall be demonstrated to thee what thou oughtest to do," to wit'be baptized, which was the only thing lacking to him. That point excepted, he bad sufficiently learnt and believed "the Nazarene" to be "the Lord, the Son of God."_


----------



## farmasis

centerpin fan said:


> Completely wrong. It says the waters of the ark "symbolizes baptism that now saves you also ..." It's not written in code. It's there in black and white.


 
In black and white after that he says it is NOT the water that can only cleans the flesh, but the faith in GOD!



> So, you can't even name one person?


 
I will stick with Jesus as I always hated history.



> Again, you're just reading what you believe into the passage.


 
Titus said we are not saved by our works of righteousness. When Jesus was baptized, he said he was doing it to complete his righteousness. Mince words all you want. 



> I'm not stunned that a Protestant like Henry believes Protestant doctrine. Luther didn't believe this. It was the reformers who came after Luther who started it.
> 
> They're not my beliefs. It's what was believed and taught everywhere. No one taught differently until the Reformation.
> 
> Jesus only listed two. I will not add to or subtract from that amount.


 
Seems Jesus taught something other than what you and what you say Luther believe.

*<SUP>25</SUP>* Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. <SUP id=en-NKJV-26546 class=versenum>*26*</SUP> And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11)
*<SUP>23</SUP>* And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. <SUP id=en-NKJV-26402 class=versenum>*24*</SUP> Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am _He,_ you will die in your sins.” (John 8)

 <SUP id=en-NASB-26305 class=versenum>*47*</SUP>"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. (John 6)

 <SUP id=en-NASB-26157 class=versenum>*36*</SUP>"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3)

 <SUP id=en-NASB-26235 class=versenum>*24*</SUP>"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (John 5)


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> In black and white after that he says it is NOT the water that can only cleans the flesh, but the faith in GOD!
> 
> 
> 
> I will stick with Jesus as I always hated history.
> 
> 
> 
> Titus said we are not saved by our works of righteousness. When Jesus was baptized, he said he was doing it to complete his righteousness. Mince words all you want.
> 
> 
> 
> Seems Jesus taught something other than what you and what you say Luther believe.
> 
> *<SUP>25</SUP>* Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. <SUP id=en-NKJV-26546 class=versenum>*26*</SUP> And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11)
> *<SUP>23</SUP>* And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. <SUP id=en-NKJV-26402 class=versenum>*24*</SUP> Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am _He,_ you will die in your sins.” (John 8)
> 
> <SUP id=en-NASB-26305 class=versenum>*47*</SUP>"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. (John 6)
> 
> <SUP id=en-NASB-26157 class=versenum>*36*</SUP>"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3)
> 
> <SUP id=en-NASB-26235 class=versenum>*24*</SUP>"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (John 5)



I love those verses.

AFTER Jesus made those statements, after His resurrection, He told His apostles:  "everyone who BELIEVES and is baptized will be saved".
The expectation:  every person would see and comprehend those words and be baptized.

If Jesus taught it, I teach it.


----------



## farmasis

Wow, God changes a lot according to some people here.


----------



## farmasis

Ronnie T said:


> I love those verses.
> 
> AFTER Jesus made those statements, after His resurrection, He told His apostles: "everyone who BELIEVES and is baptized will be saved".
> The expectation: every person would see and comprehend those words and be baptized.
> 
> If Jesus taught it, I teach it.


 
He didn't teach that. He said believe and be baptized for salvation. Do not believe and you will be condemned. Therefore, if you believe you will not be condemned.


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> In black and white after that he says it is NOT the water that can only cleans the flesh, but the faith in GOD!


 
That's just not what the passage says.  You're torturing the sentence structure to get to your interpretation. 




farmasis said:


> I will stick with Jesus as I always hated history.



History is in complete agreement with Jesus until the mid-1500's.  




farmasis said:


> Titus said we are not saved by our works of righteousness. When Jesus was baptized, he said he was doing it to complete his righteousness. Mince words all you want.



You're running together two passages that have nothing to do with one another.  And Jesus was not baptized for the same reasons that we are today.   




farmasis said:


> Seems Jesus taught something other than what you and what you say Luther believe.



You can't just take the passages that you like and ignore the ones you don't.  Why not include John 3:5, Matthew 28:18-20 and Mark 16:16 in there?

I see no conflict between any of those verses and my position that baptism is essential.


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> He didn't teach that. He said believe and be baptized for salvation. Do not believe and you will be condemned. Therefore, if you believe you will not be condemned.



Now this is eisegesis!

Who does Jesus say will be saved?  Say it out loud.


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> He didn't teach that. He said believe and be baptized for salvation. Do not believe and you will be condemned. Therefore, if you believe you will not be condemned.



You've got to be kidding me!

So that's how you deal with the teachings of Jesus.

Not much I can say.


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> Riddle me this faith in water believers.....you want to discount what Jesus promised the theif on the cross... so
> 
> Is anyone in heaven before the death of Jesus?
> 
> if so, how? Did Jesus descend and set up a baptistry to complete their justification?



Rightly dividing the word means that you understand there are periods of time in the history of the creation.
Answer this: Why don't we have to offer sacrifices for our sins in the temple? You'll answer: things have changed.
And that's my answer to you. When Jesus brought water baptism into the picture, it was here. It wasn't here before, but it is now. None of my business about the salvation of those before Jesus brought baptism. My concern is for now.

That is, unless I'm trying to destroy Jesus' teaching!!!!!!!
Then I might try to use every reason under the sun.

I think I'm done with you with this subject. I can't deal with absurd points being brought into the discussion.


----------



## farmasis

centerpin fan said:


> Now this is eisegesis!
> 
> Who does Jesus say will be saved? Say it out loud.


 
Umm..those who believe..


----------



## Ronnie T

In Luke 17, ten men were healed of leprosy by Jesus.
Jesus told them to go to the Priest, and while on the way, Jesus healed them.

Question:  Why were they healed?
Answer:  They were healed by Jesus because He chose to heal them.

Question:  Did He heal them only because they were obedient in beginning the journey to the Priest?
If one leper had said "I'm not going to the Priest, just heal me here."  Would Jesus have healed him.

The point of the scripture is that they obeyed, and Jesus healed.
Then nine were ungrateful, then they died.

Let's just analyze those verses for a few weeks.
Could one of the men refused Jesus' command?

I'm just saying.


----------



## farmasis

Ronnie T said:


> You've got to be kidding me!
> 
> So that's how you deal with the teachings of Jesus.
> 
> Not much I can say.


 
Now you condemn the reading of a whole verse?
I guess there isn't much more to say. The Word is the Word.


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> Umm..those who believe..



Amazing isn't it centerpin?
Scratching my head.


----------



## farmasis

centerpin fan said:


> That's just not what the passage says. You're torturing the sentence structure to get to your interpretation.


 
Not going to keep going round and round..it's in the Bible.



> You're running together two passages that have nothing to do with one another. And Jesus was not baptized for the same reasons that we are today.


 
It's called letting scripture interpret scripture.



> You can't just take the passages that you like and ignore the ones you don't. Why not include John 3:5, Matthew 28:18-20 and Mark 16:16 in there?
> 
> I see no conflict between any of those verses and my position that baptism is essential.


 
John 3:5-6
*<SUP>5</SUP>* Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. <SUP id=en-NIV-26127 class=versenum>*6*</SUP> Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit<SUP class=footnote value='[b]'>[b]</SUP> gives birth to spirit. 

You have to be born, and born again. I guess you think being born of water is baptism.

Matt. 28
*<SUP>18</SUP>* Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. <SUP id=en-NIV-24215 class=versenum>*19*</SUP> Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Where is salvation here? We all agree that Jesus said to be baptized.

Mark 16:
_<SUP id=en-NIV-24890 class=versenum>*16*</SUP> Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned._

What condemns a person?


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## farmasis

Ronnie T said:


> Amazing isn't it centerpin?
> Scratching my head.


 
What is amazing to you? The 85% that disagrees with you?


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## farmasis

Ronnie T said:


> In Luke 17, ten men were healed of leprosy by Jesus.
> Jesus told them to go to the Priest, and while on the way, Jesus healed them.
> 
> Question: Why were they healed?
> Answer: They were healed by Jesus because He chose to heal them.
> 
> Question: Did He heal them only because they were obedient in beginning the journey to the Priest?
> If one leper had said "I'm not going to the Priest, just heal me here." Would Jesus have healed him.
> 
> The point of the scripture is that they obeyed, and Jesus healed.
> Then nine were ungrateful, then they died.
> 
> Let's just analyze those verses for a few weeks.
> Could one of the men refused Jesus' command?
> 
> I'm just saying.


 
Just saying what?

Yes, Jesus healed all 10 and 1 returned grateful.

We don't know what would have happened if one had not journeyed. Can we read into what we think would have happened?


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## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> What is amazing to you? The 85% that disagrees with you?



Yes, that also.


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## whome

This thread amazes me and honestly just goes to show the lack of people's willingness to eat the whole lamb. Mark 16:16  is a
1+1=2... leaving either one out doesn't equal 2.


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## Ronnie T

whome said:


> This thread amazes me and honestly just goes to show the lack of people's willingness to eat the whole lamb. Mark 16:16  is a
> 1+1=2... leaving either one out doesn't equal 2.



Me to.
It's actually scary.  85 percent believe that just because Jesus commanded it, and taught it and the apostles certainly taught and instituted it into the church from the very beginning, that it is okay to question whether or not it is necessary.

Go figger.


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## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> Umm..those who believe..



Close but no cigar.

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved..."

Why are those three words anathema to you?


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## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> Amazing isn't it centerpin?



Absolutely.


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## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> I guess you think being born of water is baptism.



Of course -- as did every Christian on the planet before the mid-1500's.  As Tertullian said in the passage I quoted earlier:

_"Unless a man have been reborn of water and Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of the heavens," has tied faith to the necessity of baptism._




farmasis said:


> Matt. 28
> *<SUP>18</SUP>* Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. <SUP id=en-NIV-24215 class=versenum>*19*</SUP> Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
> 
> Where is salvation here??



After baptism.




farmasis said:


> Mark 16:
> _<SUP id=en-NIV-24890 class=versenum>*16*</SUP> Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned._
> 
> What condemns a person?



Disbelief.  

Now, look at the word in blue below and tell me what it means in English.



farmasis said:


> Mark 16:
> _<SUP id=en-NIV-24890 class=versenum>*16*</SUP> Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned._


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## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> What is amazing to you? The 85% that disagrees with you?



When this thread started, I actually believed the "no" votes would be at least 90%.


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## farmasis

Ya'll win. I'm done.


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## Senoj

Forgive me but i didnt read the whole thread (Its very long) but i feel im still good to post my position to the OPs question.

To spend eternity with our Creator, one thing and one thing only is required....To believe (truely believe in your heart of hearts) that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Almighty God of this universe and that God came to this earth in the form of man, Jesus, to take the punishment for all sin so that we can accept Him and His atonement in order to spend eternity with Him. This is summed up in the message of salvation in John 3:16. If somebody insists that not being Baptised will mean being eternally seperated from God....there is not Scripture to support that and you are baseing Salvation on works, not Grace. 

That is just a "yes/no" answer to the question but after the point of salvation, there are things that we do in obedience to the Lord...one being Baptism. 

Baptism symbolizes the Blood of Christ washing away all our sin and transgression. We do this in obedience and excitement! Once filled with the Spirit, we take on a different mind-set and experience and view life in a completely different understanding. I cant see a new believer having a problem with it, to be honest, but like i said before, based off Gods Word, the acceptance of Christ as the Savior, Atoner, King, and Lord over their life is what is necessary to spend eternity in Glory with Christ our King, period. Now, if the Spirit has convicted a Christian to make the public profession of faith in Christ and they do not, then to that believer, there is sin and the believer will either turn to the Lord in obedience or will have to give account to the Father why they did not be Baptised but they will not be eternally seperated from Christ.


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## Ronnie T

Senoj said:


> Forgive me but i didnt read the whole thread (Its very long) but i feel im still good to post my position to the OPs question.
> 
> To spend eternity with our Creator, one thing and one thing only is required....To believe (truely believe in your heart of hearts) that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Almighty God of this universe and that God came to this earth in the form of man, Jesus, to take the punishment for all sin so that we can accept Him and His atonement in order to spend eternity with Him. This is summed up in the message of salvation in John 3:16. If somebody insists that not being Baptised will mean being eternally seperated from God....there is not Scripture to support that and you are baseing Salvation on works, not Grace.
> 
> That is just a "yes/no" answer to the question but after the point of salvation, there are things that we do in obedience to the Lord...one being Baptism.
> 
> Baptism symbolizes the Blood of Christ washing away all our sin and transgression. We do this in obedience and excitement! Once filled with the Spirit, we take on a different mind-set and experience and view life in a completely different understanding. I cant see a new believer having a problem with it, to be honest, but like i said before, based off Gods Word, the acceptance of Christ as the Savior, Atoner, King, and Lord over their life is what is necessary to spend eternity in Glory with Christ our King, period. Now, if the Spirit has convicted a Christian to make the public profession of faith in Christ and they do not, then to that believer, there is sin and the believer will either turn to the Lord in obedience or will have to give account to the Father why they did not be Baptised but they will not be eternally seperated from Christ.



Please let me ask you one question, and the question isn't about baptism.

First, you mentioned John 3:16, a familiar verse to all of us.
Over two years after Jesus spoke the words of John 3:16 Jesus said the following  "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."(Mark 16:16).
Now follow me here.  In this great commission verse Jesus again says "believing" will save a person.  But Jesus now goes further and institutes baptism.  He said 'has believed and has been baptized' shall be saved.

Now please keep following me.  In Acts 2 the apostles have the very first opportunity to offer Jesus Christ to unbelievers in the new church.
When these first hearers are presented the gospel, they ask "What shall we do".  Peter, in the power of the Holy Spirit, says "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit".
So here in Acts 2 Peter says:  "Repent, be baptized, your sins will be forgiven, and you'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Those are the reasons I don't think excluding baptism should even be discussed.
What's the purpose in discussing it's exclusion.

Oh, I almost forgot my primary point.
Jesus said what he said in John 3:16.
He spoke the words of Mark 16:16 also.

Why is it that the words of John 3:16 are supremely important, but Jesus' words of Mark 16 are not?
Why can I deny the words of one, but stand firm on the word of the other?  Isn't that picking and choosing?

All of the above are reasons that I will never ever claim that excluding baptism would be acceptable by Jesus Christ.

So, what do you think?
Do you at least see my point of view?


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## Senoj

Absolutely, i do understand your point of view. I think that what you said about not even discussing baptism being excluded is the correct thing to do unless for the purpose of witnessing to an unbeliever some how brings it about in a general circumstance. As far as that goes, i believe (again unless necessary for witnessing), there are many pety issues that among believers are useless to debate over. I guess there are several angles to take on that question, such as the motives behind asking it so i just gave my thought.

For me, some things are understood through the Spirit leading and instructing us. Often, Jesus spoke in parables and figuratively as well. When some things are taken literal in scripture, the message is not the same as intended. Now, this is fragile ground because it takes discerning thinking in us through the Spirit and also spiritual maturity to understand these so that a non believer or babe in Christ is not misled. The last thing i ever want to find myself doing is takeing Scripture out of context by leaving out or adding somthing that is not already there. In some of the verses reguarding being baptised, i believe it is not necessarily speaking of the act of being baptised (although some it is) but rather is the act of our minds, hearts and souls undergoing spiritual cleansing through the renewing and spiritual resurrection that comes from turning away from the old man to the new man in Christ Jesus. Its my belief that not being baptised will not cause a person to spend eternity seperated from Christ, so that was just my response to the question but in no case would i support the idea of not being baptised. Its not Biblical and there should not be a reason for a follower of Christ to entertain the idea.

That said, i want to make clear that i feel after accepting Christ, Baptism should definately take place to honor and be obedient to the Lord. It is a wonderful act and form of worship. I would not support not doing it and in some cases, if a believer has gone astray and turned from the Lords will in their life, then returns in repentence, i feel baptism is a wonderful act to represent cleansing and chooseing to step back in the Will of God.


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## dawg2

Ronnie T said:


> ....Jesus said what he said in John 3:16.
> He spoke the words of Mark 16:16 also.
> 
> Why is it that the words of John 3:16 are supremely important, but Jesus' words of Mark 16 are not?
> Why can I deny the words of one, but stand firm on the word of the other?  Isn't that picking and choosing?
> 
> All of the above are reasons that I will never ever claim that excluding baptism would be acceptable by Jesus Christ.
> 
> So, what do you think?
> Do you at least see my point of view?


I think people like to Cherry Pick.  Funny how some take the Bible literally, yet skip over certain parts...interesting...


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## farmasis

dawg2 said:


> I think people like to Cherry Pick. Funny how some take the Bible literally, yet skip over certain parts...interesting...


 
Everyone on here is accused of that from time to time, especially when someone does not agree with another's discernment of a scripture. It is easy to say you are skipping over or cherry picking something even while you (not you in particular) do it yourself.


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## Israel

Only do what you hear the Lord telling you to do.
But if you don't hear him at all...



he's waiting to speak to you


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## Ronnie T

Israel said:


> Only do what you hear the Lord telling you to do.
> But if you don't hear him at all...
> 
> he's waiting to speak to you




Spurgeon:
“A thing which looks to be unreasonable and seems to be unprofitable, being commanded by God, is law, is law to me. If my Master had told me to pick up six stones and lay them in a row I would do it, without demanding of him, ‘What good will it do?’ Cui bono? Is no fit question for soldiers of Jesus. The very simplicity and apparent uselessness of the ordinance should make the believer say, ‘Therefore I do it because it becomes the better test to me of my obedience to my Master.’” When you tell your servant to do something, and he cannot comprehend it, if he turns round and says, “Please, sir, what for?” you are quite clear that he hardly understands the relation between master and servant. So when God tells me to do a thing, if I say, “What for?” I cannot have taken the place which Faith ought to occupy, which is that of simple obedience to whatever the Lord hath said. Baptism is commanded, and Faith obeys because it is commanded, and thus takes her proper place.


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## THREEJAYS

Ronnie T said:


> Spurgeon:
> “A thing which looks to be unreasonable and seems to be unprofitable, being commanded by God, is law, is law to me. If my Master had told me to pick up six stones and lay them in a row I would do it, without demanding of him, ‘What good will it do?’ Cui bono? Is no fit question for soldiers of Jesus. The very simplicity and apparent uselessness of the ordinance should make the believer say, ‘Therefore I do it because it becomes the better test to me of my obedience to my Master.’” When you tell your servant to do something, and he cannot comprehend it, if he turns round and says, “Please, sir, what for?” you are quite clear that he hardly understands the relation between master and servant. So when God tells me to do a thing, if I say, “What for?” I cannot have taken the place which Faith ought to occupy, which is that of simple obedience to whatever the Lord hath said. Baptism is commanded, and Faith obeys because it is commanded, and thus takes her proper place.



Amen well put.


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## farmasis

Did anybody dispute baptism was not commanded?


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## thedeacon

farmasis said:


> Did anybody dispute baptism was not commanded?



Does not Christ demand that we follow his commands, if the answer is no then forget baptism, if it yes then we must quitely and slowly think to ourselves

Did the apostles in all the the conversions in acts tell the people to be baptized. 

After Paul was thrown from his ride on the road and met with Jesus like no one ever had, didn't he follow the lords command and go into the city and wait for the man of got to tell him what he should do.

Didn't the man of God meet Paul and answered his question when he ask "what must I do to be saved"

He was told to repent and be baptised for the remission of his sins. 

Was all that necessary?

Yes, and I tell you why, Christ commanded it. Its that simple.

Please will you just come out and admit this one thing.

Did Jesus and his INSPIRED FOLLOWERS, command batism? Yes or NO

Is it necessary to follow the commands of God?


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## farmasis

thedeacon said:


> Does not Christ demand that we follow his commands, if the answer is no then forget baptism, if it yes then we must quitely and slowly think to ourselves
> 
> Did the apostles in all the the conversions in acts tell the people to be baptized.
> 
> After Paul was thrown from his ride on the road and met with Jesus like no one ever had, didn't he follow the lords command and go into the city and wait for the man of got to tell him what he should do.
> 
> Didn't the man of God meet Paul and answered his question when he ask "what must I do to be saved"
> 
> He was told to repent and be baptised for the remission of his sins.
> 
> Was all that necessary?
> 
> Yes, and I tell you why, Christ commanded it. Its that simple.
> 
> Please will you just come out and admit this one thing.
> 
> Did Jesus and his INSPIRED FOLLOWERS, command batism? Yes or NO
> 
> Is it necessary to follow the commands of God?


 
Yes!...I am not sure but I don't think anyone disputes this is a command.

Necessary to follow the commands of God....?

Necessary for what?

For salvation... NO!

to please God and be obedient to God... yes.

For salvation...NO!

We are to commanded to go to all nations making disciples, baptizing them, and teaching them to follow and obey God.
..if we aren't missionaries.. is our salvation void?
..if we do not teach..is our salvation void?

We are commanded to love one another..if we don't, are we unsaved?

Other commandments given by Jesus..

Forgive one another, wash each other's feet, pray privately, show your good works, partake of the lord's supper, do not call anyone on earth your father, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, comfort the distressed....we could go on and on.

So, are all of these required for salvation?


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## Ronnie T

Here's a key difference.........

Some (me) don't look as baptism as a "command" of Christ and the apostles.

"Baptize" is what the apostles were told to do as they taught the Gospel.
"Be Baptized" was not a commandment, but rather the response when someone asked:  "what shall we do".

It's not:  Do not kill, do not commit adultry, and do get baptized.
It is:  Why can't this person be baptized?

Baptism and sin?
Paul was told to 'arise and be baptized, washing away your sins.'

The Bible says that in baptism your daughter put on Christ.  Clothed with Christ.


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## 1gr8bldr

Eph 1:13+14


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## Ronnie T

1gr8bldr said:


> Eph 1:13+14



?????????


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## Ronnie T

Ephesians 4:5

.


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## 1gr8bldr

Ronnie T said:


> ?????????





1gr8bldr said:


> Eph 1:13+14


Hello Ronnie, I added this verse to the mix as food for thought. Like yourself, I don't see baptismal as a command so I pointed out a verse that seems to support my thoughts. Point is that the Spirit was given after having "believed" with no mention of baptismal although some could be justified by saying it was implied.


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## Ronnie T

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Ronnie, I added this verse to the mix as food for thought. Like yourself, I don't see baptismal as a command so I pointed out a verse that seems to support my thoughts. Point is that the Spirit was given after having "believed" with no mention of baptismal although some could be justified by saying it was implied.



Okay, I gotcha.
It was more than implied.
Long before Paul wrote this letter to the Ephesians, Peter told the very first Christian,
"Repent and be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

This brings up a good point of how important baptism is for a person coming to Christ, but how the emphasis after baptism goes completely to God and God's work of mercy and grace.

For me, I say, according to my understanding of the scriptures, that I was baptized because the Bible instructed me to.
But after baptism, I must never lay claim to having any part in saving myself.  I am saved by the grace and mercy of God.

And with that, I'm hopefully going to bow out of this discussion since I've already made over a 100 comments.


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