# Please answer me this??????



## FireDoc (Jan 16, 2010)

I hunt on the savannah river. There are alot of small islands that are privately owned and alot of creeks that run off the river. The guy I go hunting with is from here and knows the river very well. 
Ok, with that set up & said. My question is and has been to him many times with some debate that "if the water is in flood stage like it is now that any and all water that comes off the main body of the river is in fact NOW part of the river and be hunted, right?" 
And, "The creeks that come off the main river on the GA side can also be hunted?" My hunting partner says that the creeks that come off the main river are private. You can't own rivers and creeks in GA can you? I understand owning the "LAND" on both sides but not the body of water itself. And, he says you can only hunt the GA side of the savannah river and not the south carolina side. The river is the same on both sides...a continuous body of water. If the state line is in the middle of the river then wouldn't it stand to reason that the line would continuously shift or move daily. Thats just rediculous. 
I'm asking this b/c back where I'm from the "federal law" says that if (I'm paraphrasing) the main body of water (not owned by anyone) floods into someones land that all water connected to the main body is now considered that river itself and can be hunted. Which allows you to hunt some fields and flooded timber. I'm orginally from Arkansas and have hunted many times in many places just like this...when the rivers and creeks flood it opens up hunting in flooded timber and some fields skating the edge of those said rivers and creeks. Just curious on the ongoing debate as there is numerous new unhunted places along the savannah river that could be hunted if what I think is right. If I'm wrong I'll admit it and stay legal. Thanks for your answers in advance.


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## quackwacker (Jan 16, 2010)

thats a good question!  Im looking forward to this answer!


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## FireDoc (Jan 16, 2010)

come on now don't be shy, all the learkers are sitting on the edge of thier seats pining for an answer.


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## quackwacker (Jan 16, 2010)

Ive always heard if its navigable by boat from the main channel then you can hunt it as public land


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## chadf (Jan 16, 2010)

I ask a game warden a similar question. (question was- 1.can I Hunt "X" river in a John boat?  2. Does that include inside and outside the WMA?) 

Answer to ? #1- yes during hunting season and have fun and be safe.

answer to ? #2- inside the wma boundry is ok to hunt, if outside the wma boundry you must have property owners permission.....


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## FireDoc (Jan 16, 2010)

quackwacker said:


> Ive always heard if its navigable by boat from the main channel then you can hunt it as public land



I've heard the same thing and back home it's a philosophy we duck hunters lived by for several yrs. I haven't been hunting in Arkansas since '94 so the laws there might have changed. Back in the late 80's and early 90's I can remember seeing real ducks (mallards) from horizon to horizon in all directions and sometimes blotting out the sun. Dang that Al Gore with his global warming. If Al Gore had never mentioned "global warming", would it be colder than it is now? Ducks don't come down south like they used to. And the flyway has for a decade or 2 shifted west to Oklahoma and Texas. Many people don't know this or refuse to admit it but Arkansas isn't what it used to be. There are ducks there but if you've never been spoiled to hundreds of ducks lighting in your spread DAILY...it just don't compare. 
We've found the woodies over on the Savannah Wildlife Refuge. Problem is they, after their initial morning ritualistic flight, light in flooded timber all along the refuge in private land flooded by the savannah river. We can see them swimming around and laughing @ us. And we just sit there and pout I guess. We've had some very good shoots the past couple times we went. Saw hundreds of woodies mixed with other unknown bigger types. Around 7:30-9:00 they just turn off switch and pull the plug. The places that are flooded are numerous and extremely brushy to get into on the refuge itself. Some places in the refuge are wadeable but only for a few acres. It's just to dangerous to go walking around in the trees and not see one of those small creeks that'll float your hat if you don't know where your at. 
Food for thought...I bet all the private land bordering the refuge is slap loaded with hog & deer being flooded out.


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## jero77 (Jan 16, 2010)

Navigable waters are determined at normal pool once you leave the river  banks as determined by normal pool levels you are on private land. lets say you own property next to the river and you build a duck impoundment 200yds off the river, come duck season the river floods and your impoundment was now accessable by boat from the river and me and all my buddies floated into your impoundment and started shooting ducks, would that be the right thing to do.


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## FireDoc (Jan 16, 2010)

jero77 said:


> Navigable waters are determined at normal pool once you leave the river  banks as determined by normal pool levels you are on private land. lets say you own property next to the river and you build a duck impoundment 200yds off the river, come duck season the river floods and your impoundment was now accessable by boat from the river and me and all my buddies floated into your impoundment and started shooting ducks, would that be the right thing to do.



Ok, I see what your saying. Didn't look at it that way. But what do you mean by "normal pool". What's that definition?
Also if that hypethitical "duck impoundment" is on land thats not posted then where would the propery line be if you couldn't see the bank of the river?


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## jero77 (Jan 16, 2010)

you can also navigate any creek or stream that flows through private land  however as soon as you, your boat ,the fishing lure on your pole touches the bank or the bottom of the creek you are tresspassing


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## jero77 (Jan 16, 2010)

there are websites out there that give you the normal full pool levels, when the levels are reading normal you just have to go look, I agree there is a lot of grey area in these laws and most times the GW will not make an issue unless the land owner does.


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## FireDoc (Jan 16, 2010)

Fishing yes but can you duck hunt those same creeks?


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## FireDoc (Jan 16, 2010)

thanks, just trying to stay legal.


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## redneck_billcollector (Jan 16, 2010)

Waterways that are deemed navigatable by the Corps of Eng. are public in normal pool.  Heck some big creeks, such as the Ichaway Notchaway down in Baker Co. are off limits, there was a case that went all the way up a few years back that the Courts ruled in the landowner's favor.
Think about it, Ga. Power owns tons of navigatable water in Ga. and they control the hunting on those waters.

I own property on the Flint in Mitchell Co. that floods and we have a little creek that comes out of it, we have successfully prosecuted trespassers on it when flooded (had someone show up in a boat right next to me and refused to leave, ruined my hunt for the day).  My home is on Lake Chehaw which is partly the Flint, in the 94 flood and the 98 flood, my whole property was under water, I promise you had someone come on to my property scavaging they would have caught about 30 rounds of .223 full metal jacket.  The law while not telling us it was ok, there was some looting going on,  it was pretty much understood by everyone that you could protect your property by any means you choose.


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## jero77 (Jan 16, 2010)

technically no, if you touch land in anyway,(tying your boat to a tree, even the shot form your shell can't land on private property) but like I say there is alot of grey area, when we talked to the GW at the ramp earlier in the year he did not have a problem with where we were however we were within  a 100yds of the main river channel on a very flooded river not up a creek deep into someones property but said he would cite us if the land onwer had issuses with it.


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## Gaducker (Jan 16, 2010)

across the river said:


> Here is my best go at it.  You can hunt bodies of water the federal government owns, which are bodies of water considered navigable.  The river itself would be considered navigable, but any creek or flood plan off of the river would not be considered navigable.  If a barge can't or didn't at one time carry freight up it then it technically isn't considered navigable.  The creeks then exist as private property.  I've always wondered why you could hunt rivers above the fall line since barges didn't make it that far, but I guess they include it as part of the river.  Since the goverment technically only owns the water, the land suronding it and the river bed itself belong to the property owner.  If you pull up in a flooded area you are outside of the "navigable" waters and are tresspassing on that property owner's land/water.   Also, the state line does not make a line down the center of the river.  There are actally some areas where both sides are in Georgia and both sides are in Carolina. You can look on google earth and see this. However, I have always been told by DNR that if you stay to your side of the center you are considered to be in the state.  Agreements exist between states that allow you fish either side, but these agreement do not exist for hunting.   Just ask some of the gator hunters who got caught hunting on the SC side of the river.





This is what I have been told by more than one GW, Commercial barges mean navigable not your jon boat.  For along time I thought if you could launch your boat legal as long as you could float you were navgiable. I dont think thats the case with a few more years of leg work trying to figure this out I came to the conclusion That I was wrong, just cause your jon boat floats in it dont make it navigable.


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## FireDoc (Jan 16, 2010)

redneck_billcollector said:


> Waterways that are deemed navigatable by the Corps of Eng. are public in normal pool.  Heck some big creeks, such as the Ichaway Notchaway down in Baker Co. are off limits, there was a case that went all the way up a few years back that the Courts ruled in the landowner's favor.
> Think about it, Ga. Power owns tons of navigatable water in Ga. and they control the hunting on those waters.
> 
> I own property on the Flint in Mitchell Co. that floods and we have a little creek that comes out of it, we have successfully prosecuted trespassers on it when flooded (had someone show up in a boat right next to me and refused to leave, ruined my hunt for the day).  My home is on Lake Chehaw which is partly the Flint, in the 94 flood and the 98 flood, my whole property was under water, I promise you had someone come on to my property scavaging they would have caught about 30 rounds of .223 full metal jacket.  The law while not telling us it was ok, there was some looting going on,  it was pretty much understood by everyone that you could protect your property by any means you choose.



I see your point. So now I know, thanks guys for all your imput. Was just unclear on GA laws as they're different elsewhere. Now knowing I can stay legal.


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## leeledger (Jan 16, 2010)

The DNR has public boat ramps on the Kinchafoonee Creek. Wouldn't that mean you can hunt/fish the creek even if it goes through private property? Now I don't think I have the right to float up into sleughs when it is flooded. But I think I have the right to float down the main body of the water anywhere downstream of the public boat ramps.


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## Flaustin1 (Jan 16, 2010)

I live on lake hartwell which is part of the savanah river chain.  As far as the state line thing goes you WOULD have to have a SC liscense to hunt that side of the river.  I know from experience. . .lucky the warden was a nice guy and quickly informed me to move my spread to the other side of the river.  Ga.  law states that any river navigable by boat at normal pool cannot be owned therefore is state property.  But . . . . I know some trout streams that could be ran in a jet boat but are still private and have received a warning ticket for fishing in the said waters. . The Corps of Engineers owns property on both sides of the savanah up in my area and you can hunt anythin on the ga side from the center of the river to the corp line that is marked on land ( it follows creeks for a considerable distance in most cases) that being said I hope i helped you but im going to research this further.  .  .  Ill let you know if i find any specifics.


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## MudDucker (Jan 17, 2010)

The Corp of Engineers has nothing to do with the designation.  It is a legal term and under federal cases and Georgia cases, navigable water means that the body of water must be able to sustain commercial boat traffic, ie barges before it considered to be legally navigable waters.  Flood stages don't count.

In Georgia, if you own the land under the water and the water is not navigable water, the owner controls the right to use the water.  Few owners exercise this control with most rivers and larger creeks, but if they do or decide to at any point and you go into it, you are trespassing and can be charged criminally.


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## EEFowl (Jan 17, 2010)

> The Corp of Engineers has nothing to do with the designation. It is a legal term and under federal cases and Georgia cases, navigable water means that the body of water must be able to sustain commercial boat traffic, ie barges before it considered to be legally navigable waters. Flood stages don't count.
> 
> In Georgia, if you own the land under the water and the water is not navigable water, the owner controls the right to use the water. Few owners exercise this control with most rivers and larger creeks, but if they do or decide to at any point and you go into it, you are trespassing and can be charged criminally.



Exaclty!

Also;
Navigable waters were defined a very long time ago and have nothing to do weather or not one can operate a boat there now.  If the waterway in not navigable, buy legal definition, then it is private property and the owner can restrict all access.  In Georgia if a navigable river floods out into someones private property, that doesn't mean that you can go up in there, outside the normal boundry of the river, and go hunting or whatever.  The property lines have not changed. 

EF


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## Twenty five ought six (Jan 17, 2010)

leeledger said:


> The DNR has public boat ramps on the Kinchafoonee Creek. Wouldn't that mean you can hunt/fish the creek even if it goes through private property? Now I don't think I have the right to float up into sleughs when it is flooded. But I think I have the right to float down the main body of the water anywhere downstream of the public boat ramps.



The state and even federal gov't has ramps on many rivers that are non-navigable and technically not open to public hunting.  The fact that they do is conundrum.

Local cases in point --anything on the Broad River above Clarks Hill which includes a couple of WMA's.

Locally popular Dyar's Pasture on Lake Oconee, where going upstream, pretty much every thing past the "duck pond" is privately owned on the left hand side.

Any ramp on the Ocmulgee above Macon. (Hwy 83 for example)


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## FowlPlay (Jan 17, 2010)

From the DNR himself a navigable waterway way is determined by a cotton barge which is what they based it off back in the day, if a cotton barge can fit in it you cant hunt it. It is totally different with fishing but as far as hunting thats what i was told and ticketed for. You cannot legally hunt anything on the GA side of the river, and bettys branch island is under lease. The only way it is worth it to hunt that section of the river is to buy a SC license and hunt down river near deep step and horse shoe island.


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## FowlPlay (Jan 17, 2010)

{ Cant fit}   correction from above


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## JRH (Jan 18, 2010)

From GADNR
O.C.G.A. §44-8-5(a)  Navigable stream means a stream which is capable of transporting boats loaded with freight in the regular course of trade either for the whole or a part of the year. The mere rafting of timber or the transporting of wood in small boats shall not make a stream navigable.
O.C.G.A. §44-8-7  Navigable tidewater is any tidewater, the sea or any inlet thereof, or any other bed of water where the tide regularly ebbs and flows which is in fact used for the purposes of navigation or is capable of transporting at mean low tide boats loaded with freight in the regular course of trade. The mere rafting of timber thereon or the passage of small boats thereover, whether for the transportation of persons or freight, shall not be deemed navigation within the meaning of this code section and shall not make tidewaters navigable.


These definitions were formulated in 1863 and speak in rather archaic terms. Therefore, the navigability of streams under state law is often decided on a case-by-case basis through court litigation.




The question of whether a stream is open to the public for fishing, boating, etc., must be determined on its physical characteristics and history, especially for smaller streams.  It comes down to whether the state owns the bottom (bed) of the stream or if the adjacent landowner owns it. The state owns the bed of navigable streams and adjacent landowners own the bed of non-navigable streams. If the state owns the bed, the stream is open to the public for fishing, wading, boating, and other public use and the owner of the adjacent land only owns to the low water mark (edge) on the bed of the stream [Official Code of Georgia Annotated (O.C.G.A.) §44-8-5(b)]. If the stream is non-navigable, the adjacent landowner may determine who can and cannot come onto the stream to fish or boat.  If different landowners own the land adjacent on either side of a stream, they each own to the thread or center of the main current.




FowlPlay said:


> From the DNR himself a navigable waterway way is determined by a cotton barge which is what they based it off back in the day, if a cotton barge can fit in it you cant hunt it. It is totally different with fishing but as far as hunting thats what i was told and ticketed for. You cannot legally hunt anything on the GA side of the river, and bettys branch island is under lease. The only way it is worth it to hunt that section of the river is to buy a SC license and hunt down river near deep step and horse shoe island.



In SC navigable water is determined by DHEC with this chart:http://www.scdhec.gov/environment/water/docs/navweb.pdf

As far as horseshoe island is concerned it is privately owned. So you could be ticketed for hunting it if the landowner wanted to press charges. 

The best advice is to check tax maps to see who owns the property.


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## Flaustin1 (Jan 19, 2010)

As far as the Corps is concerned you can hunt on there property even though it backs up to someone elses property.  I know thats a little off subject but the point im getting to is that you can go up a stream that is within the corps line regardless of how far into a landowners property it goes.  I know from experience i bow hunt and duck hunt a swamp on corps property that goes way back into some jacklegs land .  I have to deal with the warden every time i go but it is worth it.


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## Ole Fuzzy (Jan 24, 2010)

The navigability doctrines are difficult to sort out, and are not the same for the state of GA and in the federal cases.  Over time, SCOTUS has acceded to the states in ownership of streambeds.  Pragmatically speaking, what the states did was harmonious with the ownership of livestock and ability to water stock without them getting off the owner's property.  One could fence a small stream or river legally without impeding someone else's use.

Georgia's definition is pretty narrow relative to a lot of other states.

If you want to see how effectively owners can restrict recreational use, read the GA Supreme Ct. decisions in Ga. Canoing Association v. Henry and the Ichauway Plantation case.  Practically speaking, under the holding in the latter, the institute at Ichauway can make sure than no one is floating Ichauaway creek and shooting wildlife on the property.

Some info:

http://www.nationalrivers.org/states/ga-menu.htm

Even if a federal navigational servitude applies and burdens the ownership of the streambed, the scope is important.  In essence, the servitude is commercial and transportation in nature, it is not for recreational purposes.  A federal court in LA decided a case like that about 3-4 years ago.


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## jdgator (Jan 24, 2010)

What about hunting the coastline?


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## Skyjacker (Jan 24, 2010)

If you can get there by boat, its legal. The problem is if you step out of your boat on a private dyke, marsh etc.  then you're tresspassing.  

But that's what dogs are for...  they don't give them tickets.


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## parker2906 (Jan 26, 2010)

i asked a federal warden that same question last weekend and he told me as long as it held water for165 days out of the year and was navigable by the river for that period of time it was legal... if not you can be prosecuted for trespassing.


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