# Apologetics



## GunnSmokeer (Feb 16, 2017)

What is the best way to find a Christian apologetics presentation, debate, Q&A session, sermon, or study group for non-believers?

  By non-believers I mean more than just atheists who only want to argue for the sake of arguing. The audience or participants would be open to learning about Christianity, but without a belief in the Bible as THE TRUTH, and without understanding of how to interpret and apply the words of the Bible, even if they read it. These non-believers could be atheists, polytheists, pagans, persons of some non-Christian faith or cult, agnostics, or just nominal Christians-- in name only.

All the apologetics seminars and lectures I've been to have been classic examples of preaching to the choir. It all sounds good when there are no challenging questions, no counter-arguments other than straw men set up by the lecturer himself, and when "pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you" or "because the bible says so" are the ever-ready trump cards to pull out whenever a tough question might come.

I can easily find apologetics for learned, longtime zealous Christians to be taught by even more learned experts-- people with postgraduate degrees in theology, divinity, and ministry from universities and seminaries.  I can easily find classes on apologetics led by published authors who are subject matter experts, who run websites dedicated to this subject.  But their target audience is all for well-read longtime born-again Christians.

But I'm thinking of meetings in person at some church or even community center, town hall, the auditorium at a local college, etc.  Where can I bring a friend who is not a Christian to hear a presentation, or do some Q&A, on why the Bible is trustworthy and to be followed as the word of God, not just a book of wisdom and helpful suggestions written by man for man's earthly benefit?


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## ambush80 (Feb 17, 2017)

This is fun:



This is good,too:



This one is less interesting because the apologist is woefully poor:



Open them in Youtube and follow the links on the right of the screens.  They'll get you to interesting places.


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## red neck richie (Feb 25, 2017)

GunnSmokeer said:


> What is the best way to find a Christian apologetics presentation, debate, Q&A session, sermon, or study group for non-believers?
> 
> By non-believers I mean more than just atheists who only want to argue for the sake of arguing. The audience or participants would be open to learning about Christianity, but without a belief in the Bible as THE TRUTH, and without understanding of how to interpret and apply the words of the Bible, even if they read it. These non-believers could be atheists, polytheists, pagans, persons of some non-Christian faith or cult, agnostics, or just nominal Christians-- in name only.
> 
> ...



What you have to keep in mind is that everybody is different. What clicks for one person might not click for another. For me it was not a preachers sermon it was personal testimony real life personal testimony on how God had changed peoples lives and their experiences. What they had been through and how they couldn't change on their own but how God took their burdens from them. Be it hate, anger, violence, sex, or drugs. They were able to overcome their earthly burdens that they couldn't do on their own through him.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 27, 2017)

GunnSmokeer said:


> What is the best way to find a Christian apologetics presentation, debate, Q&A session, sermon, or study group for non-believers?
> 
> By non-believers I mean more than just atheists who only want to argue for the sake of arguing. The audience or participants would be open to learning about Christianity, but without a belief in the Bible as THE TRUTH, and without understanding of how to interpret and apply the words of the Bible, even if they read it. These non-believers could be atheists, polytheists, pagans, persons of some non-Christian faith or cult, agnostics, or just nominal Christians-- in name only.
> 
> ...



Do a search for Ravi Zacharias podcast.  He has many podcast of Q & A sessions he's hosted at colleges all over the world and the students(mostly secular) ask a broad spectrum of questions relevant to today.

As far as I'm concerned he's the best Apologist out there.


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## ambush80 (Feb 27, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Do a search for Ravi Zacharias podcast.  He has many podcast of Q & A sessions he's hosted at colleges all over the world and the students(mostly secular) ask a broad spectrum of questions relevant to today.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned he's the best Apologist out there.



I can't find Ravi in a debate with an Atheist.  Have you ever seen one?  I Googled "Ravi Zacharias debates Atheist" and every video labeled "Ravi Zacharias debate" is him talking by himself.  That's a shame.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 27, 2017)

I know he has debated Muslim apologist, as well as Hindu and Budhist if I'm not badly mistaken.  I can't specifically say for a fact he has debated an Atheist in a formal debate, but I would think he has.  I don't have the time to do an in depth search.  Sorry.


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## ambush80 (Feb 27, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I know he has debated Muslim apologist, as well as Hindu and Budhist if I'm not badly mistaken.  I can't specifically say for a fact he has debated an Atheist in a formal debate, but I would think he has.  I don't have the time to do an in depth search.  Sorry.



I searched for about 10 minutes, which should have been sufficient if such a debate exists.  I'm inclined to think that such a debate doesn't exist.  During my brief search I did find this, which I think is amusing:


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 27, 2017)

Guess he's skered of you guys intellectual dishonesty and self destructive reasoning.  I know I am.


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## bullethead (Feb 27, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Guess he's skered of you guys intellectual dishonesty and self destructive reasoning.  I know I am.



Nahhh, he isn't skeered of anything but facts and evidence.

The basis of Ravi's arguments always starts with and asserts that a god is an agreed upon fact.
He then basis his speeches off of that.
He is a talented and captivating speaker but he could be talking about literally any god, creature or cartoon character because he never establishes that any of them actually exists.  He asserts and expects everyone else to play along.


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## bullethead (Feb 27, 2017)

Watch some Star Trek convention clips on youtube.
Some of these people dress up, make their own languages, establish laws and live their lives as and within these parameters.
Some literally live as Vulcans and Klingons.
It is all very intriguing and believable and amazing how they can make it all up and follow it. They have back stories and a history. They also live in a make believe world within reality and refer to real laws of a fake culture.
They use their "source" as a guide too and use that to back up their beliefs.
It is all neat in that realm of imagination but it doesn't hold up to reality. They can talk about intricate details within their world but it is only real in THAT world. It is outside of reality.  They have to assert that this world exists so they can live in it and be a part of it but it only exists within that group.
Religion is the same way.


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## ambush80 (Feb 27, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Watch some Star Trek convention clips on youtube.
> Some of these people dress up, make their own languages, establish laws and live their lives as and within these parameters.
> Some literally live as Vulcans and Klingons.
> It is all very intriguing and believable and amazing how they can make it all up and follow it. They have back stories and a history. They also live in a make believe world within reality and refer to real laws of a fake culture.
> ...



At least they try to make a logical argument.  At Dragoncon I overheard some enthusiasts heatedly debating about the potential power output of dilithium crystals.  In here I couldn't even get anybody to offer a possible explanation for walking on water.  "He just did it" was the ultimate answer.  No one cared to investigate it.


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## atlashunter (Feb 28, 2017)

One of the best with Hitchens was with William Dembski. His cancer was progressing but it may have been his finest performance and that is saying a lot for Hitchens because he was always masterful.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 28, 2017)

bullethead said:


> The basis of Ravi's arguments always starts with and asserts that a god is an agreed upon fact.



And and atheist debater doesn't enter into a debate with presuppositions.  Ohhhhhhhhhkaaaaaaay.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 28, 2017)

It is better here on a forum like this, because in person, people get offended simply because you don't believe as they do. It would become an all out brawl of words resulting in the opposing side attacking character as if to break the tie. Truth is that no Christian apologetic can even come close to standing against an athiest in debate. They may think they are, and some on the net may seem as though they have, but remember who's eyes is seeing it. If someone assumes truth, then they believe as fact the things that others are debating. There is no way to prove faith, never will be. We walk by faith, not by sight. All we can do as Christian is live our lives so that we don't become a hindrance to the gospel. God calls whom he chooses, not our choice to hand pick.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 28, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> Truth is that no Christian apologetic can even come close to standing against an athiest in debate.



My friend I've seen enough debates to tell you that you are sadly mistaken on this.


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## ambush80 (Feb 28, 2017)

Let's watch Hitchens vs. Dembski and then discuss it.  I've never seen it.


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## welderguy (Feb 28, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I can't find Ravi in a debate with an Atheist.  Have you ever seen one?  I Googled "Ravi Zacharias debates Atheist" and every video labeled "Ravi Zacharias debate" is him talking by himself.  That's a shame.



https://youtu.be/OhAxN4pCjp4


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## ambush80 (Feb 28, 2017)

welderguy said:


> https://youtu.be/OhAxN4pCjp4



C'mon....

At 2:10 he quotes David Berlinski
"Has anyone ever provided proof of God's in-existence?"

Surely after all we've been through you know by now that this is an idiotic way to frame a question.

At 2:16
"Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the Universe and why it is here?" 

That's not what quantum cosmology explains.  And on and on and on.....

This is the best you came up with?  You should be glad that Ravi doesn't debate an Atheist.  It would look like what happened to Ken Ham Vs. Bill Nye


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## Miguel Cervantes (Feb 28, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> At least they try to make a logical argument.  At Dragoncon I overheard some enthusiasts heatedly debating about the potential power output of dilithium crystals.  In here I couldn't even get anybody to offer a possible explanation for walking on water.  "He just did it" was the ultimate answer.  No one cared to investigate it.



I seemingly walked on water once. The south end of Tybee at low tide has a flat chocked full of pot holes. If you have polarized sunglasses on you can see those deep holes and safely walk in 10 to 12" deep water for a good ways out, even right up to the edge of the boat channel where you could easily step in or out of a boat onto the flats. 

Unfortunately for the German couple that thought what I was doing was neat, and apparently wanted to walk out and take some pictures, they did not have polarized glasses on.  To his credit, he did manage to keep the camera above water when he rapidly submerged beneath the surface.


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## welderguy (Feb 28, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> C'mon....
> 
> At 2:10 he quotes David Berlinski
> "Has anyone ever provided proof of God's in-existence?"
> ...



What are your thoughts on Ravi's answer concerning the freewill vs determinism?
He said "as soon as you make a truth statement, you defeat the determinism statement."


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 28, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> My friend I've seen enough debates to tell you that you are sadly mistaken on this.


With all due respect, you see it from your eyes and your assumed truths. If seen by a neutral party, if that were possible, they could give an unbiased opinion.  Believers  bring assumed truths to the table. Atheist do not. Let me think of an example, smaller than is there a God and did God create the world.... Believers assume a higher moral character. Why? Because the bible says so? Because God must be good? Maybe I have made a point, maybe not. I don't ever expect my God to prove himself, That would negate faith.


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## stringmusic (Mar 1, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> With all due respect, you see it from your eyes and your assumed truths.


So does every human on earth.



> Believers  bring assumed truths to the table. Atheist do not.


I believe you might need to rethink this statement. An Atheist or Agnostic or anyone else bring assumed truths to the table.


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## stringmusic (Mar 1, 2017)

https://youtu.be/vtB6iFLmKiI

If someone could embed this for me, I'd appreciate it. I don't know how to do it on my phone.


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## ambush80 (Mar 1, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> https://youtu.be/vtB6iFLmKiI
> 
> If someone could embed this for me, I'd appreciate it. I don't know how to do it on my phone.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 1, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> So does every human on earth.
> 
> 
> I believe you might need to rethink this statement. An Atheist or Agnostic or anyone else bring assumed truths to the table.


What would an atheist assume in a debate?


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## stringmusic (Mar 2, 2017)

ambush80 said:


>


Thank ya kind sir

I know Ravi has said before that he doesn't care much for the debate setting because it turns into mud slinging, and the only thing accomplished is both parties lose ground.

And there are smaller bits of that lengthy video on YouTube I think. It's a very interesting debate.


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## stringmusic (Mar 2, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> What would an atheist assume in a debate?



What wouldn't he?


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 2, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> What wouldn't he?


It would seem to me that it would be up to the one making a claim to prove the claim. Since Atheism is not an organized religion that attempts to grow it's followers then I would consider it the Christians who need to prove the case. Atheism does not say there is no God. They say there is no proof of God. Christians apologetics say God does exist. I believe If God wanted to prove himself, he would without the help of smooth talking debaters.


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## stringmusic (Mar 2, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> It would seem to me that it would be up to the one making a claim to prove the claim. Since Atheism is not an organized religion that attempts to grow it's followers then I would consider it the Christians who need to prove the case. Atheism does not say there is no God. They say there is no proof of God. Christians apologetics say God does exist. I believe If God wanted to prove himself, he would without the help of smooth talking debaters.



Any claim made on either side of the debate would have assumed truths. If you've ever listen to a debate between an Christian apologist and an Atheist, there are many claims on both sides.


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## ambush80 (Mar 2, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> Any claim made on either side of the debate would have assumed truths. If you've ever listen to a debate between an Christian apologist and an Atheist, there are many claims on both sides.



This one got me into Sam Harris:



The thing I don't like about debates is that they come in with things they want to say and don't really spend time debating each others points.

This one is good, too.  I love Hitchens' style foiled with D'souza's evangelist style.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 2, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> Believers  bring assumed truths to the table. Atheist do not.



Aitheist don't presuppose it's true that God does not exist?
Never mind.


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## bullethead (Mar 2, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Aitheist don't presuppose it's true that God does not exist?
> Never mind.


Not in all cases, no.
Many were once believers in a god. They have come to their current thoughts over years of researching their own former religion.


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## 660griz (Mar 2, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Not in all cases, no.
> Many were once believers in a god. They have come to their current thoughts over years of researching their own former religion.



True. I was a bible thumping southern Baptist that went to church 3 times a week and vacation bible school. Then, I reached the age or reason.


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