# FALSE THEORIES ABOUT GRACE



## Banjo Picker (Jun 8, 2022)

We have many of interpreters who magnify the grace of God above everything else in the program of God. They ignore God's justice, laws, and the conditions governing the attitude and grace of God in the lives of men. They make null and void literally thousands of Scriptures revealing and regulating God's dealings with free moral agents. They state some good things about grace, but they go to the utter extreme in trying to make grace the sum total of all there is about God and His plan.


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 8, 2022)

It is true that from God's standpoint grace cannot be withheld from man because of demerit, it cannot be lessened by demerit, and it cannot be mixed with the law of works; but this does not do away with the fact that there are conditions to meet on the part of man if he wants certain benefits of grace. Not one statement in the whole Bible says that there is an unconditional grace of God to men or that there is a grace from God which men can get if they live as they please in disregard of the laws and justice of God. When we say that grace is not withheld because demerit we simply mean that God's grace will cause Him to forgive all sin when certain conditions are met. When we say that grace is not lessened by demerit we simply mean that sin does not do away with or decrease the grace of God toward a sinner when he meets certain conditions according to the Word of God. When we say it cannot be mixed with the law of works we simply mean that no work of man can merit God's blessings that come only by faith through grace and meeting the plain conditions laid down for a sinner to meet in order to get these blessings.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 9, 2022)

Christ met all of the conditions for His people, according to the election of grace.

Salvation is of the Lord.


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## Madman (Jun 9, 2022)

Perhaps this “election of grace” could be fleshed out.


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## formula1 (Jun 9, 2022)

Ephesians 2
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Grace 100% belongs to the Giver and He is supreme! No man has any right to explanation of it. It is only for man to receive as His gift! And God even prepared the works of Grace.

So what can man do!


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## gordon 2 (Jun 9, 2022)

Israel said:


> He was.





Israel said:


> Grace is all that allows a man to know he lives before God, His laws, His justice, His righteousness. His judgments.
> 
> Grace teaches the fear of the Lord.




I think sin was the first teacher of the fear of the Lord, if fear is to be  due to unfavorable consequence. To say that Grace is all that allows a man to know he lives before God, His laws, his justice...seems to be a false construction simply from our experience of grace and goodness.

Before Cain and the Hebrews was God's grace sealed with the biblical words, " and it was good". I don't think so.  God made good on good before he made good on grace. Grace is not the only way to justice... it was not for Abraham or Rebecca his niece. Their relationship with God was not a relationship of grace but one of goodness.

Is it my faith that God is graceful before he is good, or from his goodness followed grace. God made his measure of goodness known before his grace was needed. Which Adam is ours the one not needing grace or the one who knew no grace but what was good ?

What is more important to my life, to know that God is foremost good and good for my life or that that he is foremost graceful and therefore his grace is the door opening to seek my creator who is good. If we are gathered to seek God, the elect must be drawn by good that does not proceed through grace first? From a faith that good is possible I  can understand why grace is good and not understand that grace is my door to that which is divinely good.

If it is true that it is best to seek God like a child, then all the doctrines of grace are on point to ask me to know God through a series of serious  biblical nightmares. I don't think God would go there with children. Do you? On the other hand if I can need go as a child to God---I must trust on God's dreams of blessings to the house of Abraham simply because Rebecca was  besides being beautiful a good person and she trusted God because God was good. By faith Rebecca is my hero, like Abraham she did not guard herself of God's goodness and trusted God for his goodness, unlike which  we the children of grace we have come to do for we trust that He is graceful first, a man willing to remove goodness from his persona regards us sinners as the cases require and so we imitate and guard ourselves from our neighbors something Rebecca did not do!!!!!!!!


Does someone know justice mainly due God's grace or mainly due that God is good, and has created goodness? Is God's perfection that which can be revealed to us foremost due his interventions of grace? Or some thing yet more fundamental. Abraham and Rebecca needed not God's grace to trust in his will and so to do justice. To us the children of grace they are seen a righteous but to them they were just being themselves living a faith that God was good.

Peter describes Jesus, his teacher, a man with no sin.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 9, 2022)

Israel said:


> I can't argue against " 'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved", not because it's anything of itself, I simply cannot deny my place in having learned of it.
> 
> Even of Him who knew no sin but is spoken of:
> 
> ...




I got it. It is your case.

Maybe Fear of the Lord, is not Fear of the Lord all the time, like all is not all all the time. 

Anyway it is minor...

Grace for you seems to be the raw recruit drill  sergeant of your faith. I'm not sure it was such with me.


Anyway it is minor...

I never really feared the Lord. Instead I feared myself... of which I'm not fully repaired.

Anyway it is minor...

I never did stuff so that I would be loved more. I ever knew I was. I grieved that I could not love more when I failed at it... perhaps.


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 9, 2022)

When a person realizes that he is a sinner, that God's grace is greater than his sins, that he has no merits of his own to earn favor with God, and that he comes to God meeting the requirements of reconciliation he becomes immediately a recipient of God's grace. If God withheld His grace from a penitent sinner because one was a sinner, then no person could be saved. If sin lessened the grace of God to a penitent sinner, then no person could be blessed, for sin would be greater than grace, and sin would not permit grace to be manifest. If blessings were earned by works, then they would not come by grace.


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## Madman (Jun 9, 2022)

Israel said:


> He was.


I apologize for my ambiguity. 

I should have written 'Perhaps election of grace should be defined".


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 10, 2022)

It is also true that God is not under obligation to save sinners because of some human merit but it is true that God of His own accord and because of grace obligated Himself to pay the debt of sin for man. Since God has accepted of His own free choice the undertaking of paying man's debt, He is now under obligation to man to give each one the same freedom of choice in accepting the cancellation of the debt. God is under obligation now to save those that do accept the work of Christ for them. God cannot in any one case refuse to manifest His grace to any sinner that accepts the work of Christ for him. God is not under obligation to bless any one sinner that refuses and rejects the offer of God and the work of Christ on the cross. The choice is now left up to each sinner and not to the further choice of God. God's choice has already been made, and His work in the paying of man's debt is finished, and He is obligated to give to all who accept the full benefits for which Christ died.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 10, 2022)

I did not loose an eye so to speak  that I would get more intimate with death, but that I would best cleave to Christ and so live by the spirit, mine and my Lord's. All of my soul's capture handed over to the inner man,  to the heirs of David, King, Son of Man and Son of God who rule by the spirit and so by  the spiritual man that my hope be not towards vanities, those nasty vanities that confound the man in transition with mischiefs to mischiefs, misfit to misfits, resigned to hopes of resignations and so salved in understandings such as  one eyed doctrines of Grace, and other one trick pony riders...

Was Paul's hope vanity? His hope in the resurrection an escape for his life of faith? What doctrines can we decide on love... let us count the stars? If Grace is the trademark of a cymbal are we dying to play it, or we alive to feed it in time?

Would it be possible to loose both eyes and yet see? Now that would be a miracle... except that Paul was blinded so he could. Loosing one eye was not enough for him, his transition was complete after he was made to loose both. Was he vain for not caring about his suffering? He was modest. Something other than vanity drove him to newer, better engagement with others.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

The whole issue of Grace has man saying more about it than God. And I have a problem with it because this is how I assimilate it. I might be right, I might be wrong...but I know I am born again...And where I read love some read grace as in God so graced the world that he gave his only begotten son...  And grace ( unmerited favor)  God with all your heart and  ( unmerited favor) your neighbor as yourself...


It just seems to me that love sweeps away our need for happy doctrines... which I fear are but as the vanities that can find the old man in the new man...and so in this way love is swept away... as our busy Martha we add to our listening Mary.

Is grace the fuel that makes God's foods for us more palatable or are His table foods his better works of love. If God has given us Grace then he has given his works of favor to which we add we are underserving- even totally undeserving. If He has given us his love than He has give of Himself which in scripture is thought good... for He loved the world and for this motivation first that we might not perish.

We are new in Christ like this: On Grace we make of it too much and  on Love we call it Kumbaya. Such is our generation--- some are elect, some not. Let us gather in the spirit of being guarded--" The swines you know..." But is this the way God sees man when he loves even the world? Why would I love the enemy... some that are doomed in any real case  Physical and Spiritual?

Are our children made beautiful by our grace to them or by our love to them? A marriage of souls by favor can turn to one of love. But I favor a marriage made in love for the couple is made beautiful both the soul and the spirit from the beginning of this new life.


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 10, 2022)

Naturally men are saved by grace but not without the free and voluntary choice of acceptance of the work of Christ and proper confession of sins to God and faith in the blood of Christ. All the grace of God in existence could not save one soul if that soul refused the merits of that grace. Thus, in the final analysis man governs his personal salvation by his power of free choice. Salvation is naturally the work of God for man but God cannot save man without his free consent and co-operation with God from the new birth to the grave. So the idea that man's salvation depends ONLY on the grace and on grace ALONE, and that it is the work of God ONLY and the work of God ALONE, is false.


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## formula1 (Jun 11, 2022)

Israel,

Thank you! Yet I did not accomplish any shaking. Holy Spirit you are magnificent!

This one word in the passage:  ‘Immeasurable’. Try as I might, I cannot grasp such a grace!  But what a longing it creates! What an age to come!

Immeasurable blessings to you!


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## gemcgrew (Jun 12, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> So the idea that man's salvation depends ONLY on the grace and on grace ALONE, and that it is the work of God ONLY and the work of God ALONE, is false.


For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: _it is_ the gift of God:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

He shall save His people from their sins.

Salvation is of the Lord.


I have yet to meet a will worshipper that doesn't glory in himself.


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 12, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: _it is_ the gift of God:
> 
> Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
> 
> ...



Look in a mirror.

Grace cannot keep men saved when they are sinning against God (Rom. 8:1-13; James 5:19, 20; Gal. 5:19-21; 6:7, 8; 1 Cor. 3:16, 17).


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 12, 2022)

If all depended only and alone upon God to save all sinners and they had nothing to do to get saved, then all would be saved alike by God, for the salvation of all men is His desire (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9). If it were left up to God alone, then He would be under moral obligation to save all regardless of their consent or He would be a respecter of persons and a BREAKER OF HIS OWN LAW (James  2:1, 9).


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## gemcgrew (Jun 12, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Look in a mirror.
> 
> Grace cannot keep men saved when they are sinning against God (Rom. 8:1-13; James 5:19, 20; Gal. 5:19-21; 6:7, 8; 1 Cor. 3:16, 17).


Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? _It is_ God that justifieth. 

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: _it is_ the gift of God:


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 12, 2022)

Grace cannot guarantee eternal life to the saved who commit sin and die (Ezek. 18:4; Rom. 8:12, 13, James 5:19, 20; Gal. 5:19-21; 6:7, 8).


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## gemcgrew (Jun 12, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Grace cannot guarantee eternal life to the saved who commit sin and die (Ezek. 18:4; Rom. 8:12, 13, James 5:19, 20; Gal. 5:19-21; 6:7, 8).


Grace secured it in a Substitute, an Advocate.

God sees no sin in His people!

God made me to need His Grace!

Your antics first appeared in the garden. You barely even get my attention.


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 12, 2022)

Grace cannot permit God to be a respecter of persons in judging the sinner for sins and excusing the saved when they commit the same sins (Gal. 6:7, 8; Rom.8:1-13; Ezek. 18:4, 24-28; 33:12-16; Rev. 2:5, 16, 21-22; 3:3).


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## gemcgrew (Jun 12, 2022)

God has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.

It is all about God and His Glory.


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## formula1 (Jun 12, 2022)

I can only say I was once lost but now I’m found! I was blind but now I see!  His grace is sufficient and nothing can separate me from His love! But it is not because of me, it’s because of Him. You would do well to think you have any power to influence the outcome. God is both just and the justifier!  Praise be the King of Glory!


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 13, 2022)

It is true that grace is pure kindness and unmerited favor from God but since God voluntarily chose to pay man's debt and save him from He11 on the grounds that man should accept this work for him God is now fulfilling an obligation to man which is an obligation of His own free choice not one that man has merited. In other words, man's works, or human merits did not earn for him the obligation on the part of God to save him. This obligation is a voluntary one on the part of God for helpless man. This is why God's grace is real, unmerited favor and love toward man.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 13, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> So the idea that man's salvation depends ONLY on the grace and on grace ALONE, and that it is the work of God ONLY and the work of God ALONE, is false.





Banjo Picker said:


> This obligation is a voluntary one on the part of God for helpless man.


For helpless man.

Helpless man.

oops


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 14, 2022)

It is the human element in the working of grace that the above-mentioned people fails to recognize. These people magnifies grace as the only thing that is capable of saving man and contends that man can do nothing to get the benefits of grace. It they ignore man's free moral agency man's responsibility in his own ****ation should he be lost, and they ignore repentance, confession of sins prayer, the giving up of sin on the part of man or anything that God has required of man to be saved. They ignore the human elements after one is saved and brushes aside all the conditions of continued salvation plainly laid down in Scripture that man must meet in order to be saved in the end. They lay all blame and responsibility upon God should man fail to do what God requires of him to be eternally saved. They make God personally accountable for the loss of every soul should anyone be finally lost after he has believed. These people holds to some of the most foolish and unscriptural theories about God, grace, and salvation of any that claims any degree of faith in the gospel Christ.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 14, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> It is the human element in the working of grace that the above-mentioned people fails to recognize.


Probably because there is no human element in the workings of Grace. It is between the Father and the Son.

By Grace ye are saved.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2022)

Reading through some Missionary Baptist doctrine this morning;

"We believe that fallen man has nothing, and can do nothing, of himself, to recommend him to the favorable notice of the Divine Being, and that all his hopes of pardon, justification, redemption, and sanctification are derived alone from the merits of Christ."

"We believe that the salvation of sinners is wholly by grace, through the mediatorial office of the Son of God, who took upon Himself our nature, yet without sin, honored law by His personal obedience and made atonement for our sins by His Death."

"We believe that all who are called to be saints through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth shall never be lost."


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2022)

If fallen man has nothing, and can do nothing, of himself, to recommend him to the favorable notice of God the first time, why would this same man be able to do it the 2nd, 3rd, and eventually the 5,000th time?


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 15, 2022)

These people argue that grace is pure kindness not the fulfilling of an obligation that it is God's kindness to sinners whether they sin less or more that it is wholly unrelated to human merit that it is not the treating him better than he deserves that it is treating a person graciously without the slightest reference to his deserts, that it is never decreased or increased from the standpoint of God, and that it offers a standardized unvarying blessing to all alike, there arguments are partly true, but this one thing has been overlooked by these people, and that is that the manifestation of the grace from God is governed by man's free moral agency on the part of each individual. That is, God limits what he will do for any individual by grace by the will, faith and obedience of each prospective recipient of grace.


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 15, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Probably because there is no human element in the workings of Grace. It is between the Father and the Son.
> 
> By Grace ye are saved.



Grace cannot guarantee unconditional eternal security to anyone (Heb. 10:26-39; Rom. 6:16-23; 8:1-13; Ezek. 18:4; 33:12-20; Gal. 5:16-26.


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## formula1 (Jun 15, 2022)

God’s grace cannot be influenced by man in any way! It is His gift to give as He wills! 

These comments you make may be religious and sincere but are deceiving and are not from above!


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 15, 2022)

formula1 said:


> God’s grace cannot be influenced by man in any way! It is His gift to give as He wills!
> 
> These comments you make may be religious and sincere but are deceiving and are not from above!



Grace cannot excuse and ignore the failure of saved man to meet the many conditions of Salvation 1 Jn. 1:7; Rom. 8:1-13; James 5:19, 20; Gal. 19-21.


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## tell sackett (Jun 15, 2022)

There is only one "condition" for salvation: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.


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## formula1 (Jun 15, 2022)

If man meets any condition for salvation it is subject to the boasting of man!

By grace you have been saved through faith. It is the gift of God so no man can boast.

So that I make myself clear, my only boast is of the righteousness of God I received through faith that I could not accomplish, but God has given me through Christ!


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## tell sackett (Jun 15, 2022)

formula1 said:


> If man meets any condition for salvation it is subject to the boasting of man!
> 
> By grace you have been saved through faith. It is the gift of God so no man can boast.
> 
> So that I make myself clear, my only boast is of the righteousness of God I received through faith that I could not accomplish, but God has given me through Christ!



Amen brother. As Paul make abundantly clear in Rom. ch.4 & ch.11, not to mention the entire book of Galatians.


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 15, 2022)

To teach that God does not forgive a sinner because He is big-hearted enough to remit the penalty or that God does not have mercy on a sinner but that He saves solely because of grace is to demonstrate ignorance of the gospel and of what grace is. This fact that God has already "taken away" the sin of the world on the cross and that Christ is our substitute and has already borne the righteous judgments of God against sin does not prove that God is unmerciful or that he is not big-hearted or that grace is something separate and apart from the redemptive work of Christ and God. The truth is that God manifests grace to men who do not merit it and cannot merit it. It is also true that God is love. He is big-hearted. He is merciful and He is king and compassionate to those who have gone astray from His family.


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 18, 2022)

When men become so technical as to separate grace from the mercy, love, and kindness of God to men, they demonstrate the worst kind of ignorance of truth. Such high-sounding phrases concerning grace that they use to magnify it as separate and distinct from all redemptive processes may sound wonderful to many people who revel in trying to find hidden mysteries in the Word of God, but to simple believers of Scripture such is foolish. Such teachers may get inflation of their spirits beyond measure and feel that they are wonderful in manufacturing technicalities and in trying to magnify grace, but in the light of plain simple Scriptures and common sense, such theories are foolish and false. Let anyone take up a brief study, of the words GRACE, KINDNESS, LOVE, and other terms as they ARE USED OF GOD, MAN, AND REDEMPTION, and see if such fallacies, can be found to be scripture.

Study of these words proves that "Grace" is not used in either testament as something separate and apart from the big-heartedness, love, compassion, and kindness of one individual to another, whether it be man to man or God to man. It is used repeatedly of the manifestation of the favor of one person to another, and this favor is governed by the disposition, life, service, faith, acquaintance, relationship, and attitude of the recipient of the favor.


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 19, 2022)

Grace cannot free saved men of all sowing and reaping of sins (Gal. 6:7, 8; Rom. 8:1-13; Ezek. 18:4, 24-28; 33:12-16; Rev. 2:5-22).


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 19, 2022)

Grace cannot guarantee unforfeitable life (Rom. 6:16-23; 8:1-13; Gal. 5:16-26; James 5:19, 20; 2 Pet. 2:20, 21; Heb. 10:26-29).


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## formula1 (Jun 19, 2022)

Thankfully, grace is a guarantee of God and not your understanding of Him!

Romans 6:23 but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I’m glad God is the one in charge of distributing His grace!!!


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 19, 2022)

formula1 said:


> Thankfully, grace is a guarantee of God and not your understanding of Him!
> 
> Romans 6:23 but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> 
> I’m glad God is the one in charge of distributing His grace!!!



Mt. 11:25 At the time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seem good in thy sight.


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## formula1 (Jun 19, 2022)

Luke 7:35
Yet wisdom is justified by all her children.


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 19, 2022)

Grace cannot free man so that he can never serve sin and the devil again (Rom. 6:16-23; 8:1-13; 1 Jn. 1:7; Heb. 6:4-9; 10:26-29; 2 Pet. 2:20, 21).


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## gemcgrew (Jun 19, 2022)

Grace can free a man from his crippled thinking.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 20, 2022)

I have a problem with my understanding that for Grace I am Saved  by that in spite of my unrighteousness which is my full time, or sometime or continued slavery to sin, despite my struggle with sin, and or disregard of the Golden Rule, I am considered righteous and this Grace is my Salvation.

In my case this is too much of a debit and credit idea of salvation and a limit to God's Grace because salvation for me is much more than God's disregard for a propensity to reduce God's big pictures, big designs to human sizes and then turn around with them so reduced and with them say I glorify God . I have reduced Grace to my exclusive favor for it.

But that's me... and in terms of relationship with God mine is perhaps nothing at all. It seems to me that our understanding of Grace is only available now in cans. It has been once and for all at the atonement and we have canned it at the theological cannery. Faith on the other hand still grows on some fields... some still bother with it as if from Grace there is much more to get, more than from my canned goods pantry.

But that's me... and in terms of relationship ... mine is perhaps nothing at all but the pantry smells moldy.  Perhaps my understanding is as carnal as the day is long as I have a hard time to figure that the command to love one's neighbor needs be if that man next door is like me so that by Grace both him and I are saved so that our unrighteousness is to both of us of no account.  Why would I need  the directive to love him or God with all my heart and mind, to entertain any such relationship, if he and  I are saved by Grace regardless of the degree of my effort towards love or loving him or seeking God by a loving relationship? Eternal life itself seems an oxymoron.

I wonder sometimes what future Christians, different men and women compared to us, will think of our ideas on Grace in a thousand yrs. Will they wonder in turn who I glorified more...by Grace. Will they note that despite our vows to the power of God's Grace we had so much in  disagreements and them with a scripture reference in the Old Testament confirm my errors.


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## formula1 (Jun 21, 2022)

When a man has believed God, it is credited to him as righteousness. So:

Acts 16:31
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Such a man has entered into grace at this point.  It doesn’t matter how much of grace he believes. He is still a recipient of the same grace in which I stand.

Even Peter declared this truth:

Acts 15
11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.

So to my brother I say only this, You are an heir of grace, a member of the family of Christ, no matter what you believe about it. I welcome you.  Fear not and the Lord Himself will be with you!


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## formula1 (Jun 21, 2022)

Israel said:


> How lovely on the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news. Bless you brother for reminding me.


It was after all your words inspiring me!  Bless you as well in all the richness of Christ!


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 21, 2022)

Grace cannot be responsible should saved men backslide and be finally lost (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:4; Rev. 2:5; 3:2; Jas. 5:19, 20; Gal. 16-26).


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 23, 2022)

Grace does not make the sins of the saved any different from the sins of the unsaved both kinds of sins are real sins and both classes are real sinners when sins are committed (Gal. 5:16-26; 6:7, 8; Rom. 6:16-23; 8:1-13; Ezek. 18 and 33).


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 24, 2022)

Grace cannot free man from all personal responsibility of being lost or saved (Mk. 16:15, 16; Rom. 1:16; 1 Cor. 1:18-21; 1 Jn. 1:7; Heb. 3:6, 12-14; 7:25; 10:35-39).


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 29, 2022)

Grace cannot free the saved from being separated from God when sin is committed (Isa. 59:2; Ezek. 18:4; Rom. 6:16-23; Jas. 5:19, 20.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 30, 2022)

Grace separates the sin... from the saved.


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## Spotlite (Jun 30, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> To teach that God does not forgive a sinner because He is big-hearted enough to remit the penalty or that God does not have mercy on a sinner but that He saves solely because of grace is to demonstrate ignorance of the gospel and of what grace is. This fact that God has already "taken away" the sin of the world on the cross and that Christ is our substitute and has already borne the righteous judgments of God against sin does not prove that God is unmerciful or that he is not big-hearted or that grace is something separate and apart from the redemptive work of Christ and God. The truth is that God manifests grace to men who do not merit it and cannot merit it. It is also true that God is love. He is big-hearted. He is merciful and He is king and compassionate to those who have gone astray from His family.



Maybe a couple questions you could consider asking aimed at supporting your argument would be to ask;

1. Without just giving me the Webster’s definition of Grace; what is Grace? Exactly what is that “unmerited favor”?

2. When is this “given” to man?


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 30, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> . Without just giving me the Webster’s definition of Grace; what is Grace? Exactly what is that “unmerited favor”?



Grace in connection with God is: free, eternal, and unmerited LOVE and Favor of God toward FREE AGENTS who are the product of His own creation, whether HUMAN OR SPIRIT BEINGS, and are capable of God consciousness and moral responsibility. Grace is the spring, source, and the very fountain-head of all the manifold benefits and blessings of God to all his creation.

When is this given to man
God’s Grace [love] and [favor] start’s at birth [when born].


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## Spotlite (Jun 30, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Grace in connection with God is: free, eternal, and unmerited LOVE and Favor of God toward FREE AGENTS who are the product of His own creation, whether HUMAN OR SPIRIT BEINGS, and are capable of God consciousness and moral responsibility. Grace is the spring, source, and the very fountain-head of all the manifold benefits and blessings of God to all his creation.
> 
> When is this given to man
> God’s Grace [love] and [favor] start’s at birth [when born].


I’m familiar with what Grace is…….but based on the “you’re saved by Grace alone” is the reason I thought it’d be a couple good questions for you to ask.


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## Banjo Picker (Jun 30, 2022)

Grace cannot free saved men of all future condemnation without proper confession and forsaking of sin (1 Jn. 1:7, 9; Rev. 2:5, 22; 3:2; 1 Tim. 5:11-15; Jas. 5:19-20).

Grace cannot permit God to forgive unconfessed sin(1 Jn. 1:9; Rev. 2:5, 22; 2 Chron. 7:14; 2 Cor. 7:9, 10; 2 Tim. 2:25; 12:21).


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 1, 2022)

Grace cannot do away with the necessity of confessed sins in the saved (1 Jn. 1:7, 9; Rev. 2:5, 16; 3:19.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 1, 2022)

Grace cannot cancel the responsibility of saved men concerning sin Rom. 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:9-11; Rev. 2:5; 3:2; Gal. 5:19-21; 1 Cor. 3:16-17; 6:9-20.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 1, 2022)

Grace causes a man to triumph in Christ.

By grace ye are saved.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 2, 2022)

Grace cannot free a saved man from continued faith and holiness (Col. 1:23; 2:6, 7; 1 Jn. 1:7; Gal. 5:19-26; Heb. 12:14, 15; Rom. 6:16-23; 8:1-13).


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 10, 2022)

Grace cannot make any sinner a child of God in the same sense in which Jesus became the Son of God, for He is the only begotten Son Jn. 3:16. Men are merely adopted (Rom. 8:14-16) and cleansed from sin (1 Jn. 1:7-9).


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 11, 2022)

Grace cannot operate in the life of the free moral agent without his consent (Jn. 3:16-18; 7:17; 8:34; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 Jn. 1:7-9; Rev. 22:17.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 17, 2022)

Grace cannot do away with the free moral agency of saved men and make them eternal slaves against their own will (Col. 1:23; 1 Jn. 1:7; Rom. 6:16-23).


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## gemcgrew (Jul 18, 2022)

Grace reveals the will-worshipper's hatred of God.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 18, 2022)

Grace cannot make God a liar and unjust in His dealings with saved men, as would be the case if they could not die again should they sin (Rom. 8:12, 13).


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## formula1 (Jul 18, 2022)

Romans 8:9-11 is kind of important to add context!

My body is destined for death.  But through His grace He gave life to my body and my Spirit!  The flesh is alive until it dies due to sin anyway. But I will soon have a new body, the result of a new birth by Grace! And now my Spirit lives!

I hope someone can praise God with me on that one!

It would not hurt for one to read Romans 8:1-4.
Walking in the Spirit with flesh that is corrupt is something only my Father thru Christ could accomplish! What a unstoppable Grace!


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## gemcgrew (Jul 19, 2022)

Immutable Grace keeps a man in the context of Christ.


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## furtaker (Jul 19, 2022)

Grace means "unmerited favor" but it's amazing how many preachers (and people on this forum) will tell people that salvation is by grace but they have to live right and work for it. Must be highly confusing to a lost man.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 19, 2022)

"'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him'"


I can read this to mean that the Father's will was deliberate and calculated as to drawing someone to Christ.

I can read this to mean that the Father who sends Jesus is the same God who sends another to Jesus.


I suppose there are many many more ways to articulate the famous sentence. One other way would be to put to it Occam's Razor:

"the principle (attributed to William of Occam) that in explaining a thing no more assumptions should be made than are necessary. The principle is often invoked to defend reductionism or nominalism."

Now if I reduce to the least the most meaningful elements in the sentence, they are in  my case that Jesus and the person drawn have the same God or Father. The person who is said drawn is aware of his Father (God) as is Jesus aware of his Father ( God) who sends him. In other word the two can meet as under the Father, the same God. because both have Him.

Now we know that Jesus sent is presented in scripture as a deliberate intervention of God into the world. But are they that are drawn of deliberate design to be exclusive of others?

What might scripture relate on who can be saved? If those able to be saved are more than an exclusivity, a purposeful design uniquely able to be drawn to salvation, than this case would deny the exclusivity.


Acts 2:21, 38, 40, 47"And it shall come to pass that whoever *calls on the name of the Lord* shall be *saved*." "Then Peter said to them, '*Repent*, and let every one of you be *baptized in the name of the Jesus Christ* *for the remission of sins*; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." "And with many other words he testified and exhorted them saying, '*Be saved* from this perverse generation.'" ". . . And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being *saved*."

It seems to me that whoever calls... denies an exclusivity  who can be saved. And more it would point that whoever calls on Christ or does not, is a choice to make in the will  to be sent and to be drawn.

Unmerited favor is the default of love. Unmerited grace is more the default of a calculating world informed by the occurrence of its many perverse generations from which God's love saves all. My .02cents is that love so reduced  is unmerited favor and that there is no designed exclusivity that can be saved. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 19, 2022)

Grace cannot forgive future sins of the saved that have not yet been committed, for only what is confessed can be forgiven (1 Jn. 1:7; Rev. 2:5, 16, 22; 3:19; Mt. 6:12-15; Lk. 13:1-5; Mk. 1:15; 6:12; Acts 2:38; 3:19).


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## gemcgrew (Jul 19, 2022)

Grace is not subject to time.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 20, 2022)

Grace cannot cause God to be lenient with rebellion and sin (Ezek. 18:4; Rom. 6:23; 8:12-13; Gal. 6:7, 8).


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 20, 2022)

Israel said:


> That which is not of faith is sin.



James put it this way: "shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." All men must have this faith to get anything from God. As long as faith is purely mental and passive no action will be taken to obey the truth. Men must get beyond the stage of hearing and into the act of doing what God says before they get results. ACTIVE FAITH This is the kind that acts upon the Word of God as is clear.
Active, living faith moves to obey every truth of God to the letter and to appropriate what God has promised. It acts as if the things that not seen are a reality. It is quick to provide works to prove that it is sincere and obedient.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 20, 2022)

Grace sees no sin in His people. He saved them from their sins.

Grace can cause a man to live.


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## formula1 (Jul 20, 2022)

John 6
27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”


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## formula1 (Jul 20, 2022)

John 3
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.

Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in[a] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness , 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Romans 9
15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Romans 11
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Galatians 2
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2022)

furtaker said:


> Grace means "unmerited favor" but it's amazing how many preachers (and people on this forum) will tell people that salvation is by grace but they have to live right and work for it. Must be highly confusing to a lost man.


Not that I agree but the way some have explained it is this.
God elects by grace alone and not works. If God elected by works, then it would not be grace.
I think both camps agree to that part. Where the one camp takes it is, even though God elected themselves by grace and gave them the free gift of salvation, it is up to their works to maintain that free gift that God gave them by unmerited grace.

Maybe like, God gave them salvation by grace and not works but then the very next day, they had to start on a path of works to make it stick.

Let's say God just randomly handed out pilot's license for free by His choosing and sent them to Jesus for their free copy. Then as they flew, they had to maintain that license by their flying skills or works.


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## Spotlite (Jul 20, 2022)

A lot of folks don’t understand “works”. Works is nothing but acting on the Word of God. If you believe it, you’ll obey it - period. 

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

“But they have not all obeyed the gospel.”

Faith without acting on the heard Word of God is dead.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> A lot of folks don’t understand “works”. Works is nothing but acting on the Word of God. If you believe it, you’ll obey it - period.
> 
> “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
> 
> ...


Do those works come from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the individual, or a little of both?


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## Spotlite (Jul 20, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do those works come from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the individual, or a little of both?


 

“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things………….”

“If ye love me, keep my commandments.”

As an example - you’re told to confess. You can believe (have faith) all you want, but if you don’t confess, your faith is dead. 

He that believes and is baptized…….ok I won’t touch that one but you get my point.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things………….”
> 
> “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”
> 
> ...



John 6:63
The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Romans 8:27-28
And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.

I guess what  I'm asking is exactly how much of our works are actually the fruits of the Holy Spirit? If our flesh can do nothing and the Spirit gives eternal life? If the Spirit intercedes?

If you had to put a percentage on what's from our dead flesh to that of a life giving Spirit? If the Holy Spirit intercedes for those called for God's purpose?
50-50? Living Spirit 75% and dead flesh 25%? Man 75% and Spirit 25%?


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## Spotlite (Jul 21, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 6:63
> The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
> 
> Romans 8:27-28
> ...



My point is repentance, baptism, etc., are what most consider “works” as a man “saving himself”. That’s a false claim. You’re not “earning” salvation by doing that, you’re acting on God’s Word - “For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:”

That’s what scripture means when it says faith without works is dead - you don’t really believe God’s Word if you’re not a doer of His Word.

The devil also believes……but he’s not a doer of the Word.


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## furtaker (Jul 21, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Not that I agree but the way some have explained it is this.
> God elects by grace alone and not works. If God elected by works, then it would not be grace.
> I think both camps agree to that part. Where the one camp takes it is, even though God elected themselves by grace and gave them the free gift of salvation, it is up to their works to maintain that free gift that God gave them by unmerited grace.
> 
> ...


So you get it by grace and keep it by works. Which means you are ultimately saved in the end by your works, so salvation is by works.

If that's their argument it makes no logical sense.


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## furtaker (Jul 21, 2022)

Israel said:


> surely. and more grievous.
> It makes no Christ.


Yeah, if that's the case, nobody needs Jesus.


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## Spotlite (Jul 21, 2022)

furtaker said:


> So you get it by grace and keep it by works. Which means you are ultimately saved in the end by your works, so salvation is by works.
> 
> If that's their argument it makes no logical sense.


That’s the whole misunderstood part of this grace / work’s argument. Salvation comes from God alone, not grace itself. It’s the grace of God (favor) to give you something you don’t deserve.

Salvation is never about works.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Find out how many times Abraham called on the Lord, I guarantee it wasn’t a one time time thing. He

Your faith doesn’t mean nothing if you’re not a doer of the heard Word of God. If you pray, fast, study, etc., you’re doing works. Not man, but scripture says if you’re not a doer of the Word your faith is dead. It don’t have make logical sense.

Could it affect your salvation? I guess the question comes down to if your faith is dead or not to begin with.


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## formula1 (Jul 21, 2022)

Romans 4 
1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> My point is repentance, baptism, etc., are what most consider “works” as a man “saving himself”. That’s a false claim. You’re not “earning” salvation by doing that, you’re acting on God’s Word - “For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:”
> 
> That’s what scripture means when it says faith without works is dead - you don’t really believe God’s Word if you’re not a doer of His Word.
> 
> The devil also believes……but he’s not a doer of the Word.


And my point was the Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. 
If this is true, then any works a man does, has to be from that life giving Spirit who are called according to God's purpose.

One may well do that stuff but he can't do it on his on accord just to prove he is a child of God and thus has salvation.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2022)

furtaker said:


> So you get it by grace and keep it by works. Which means you are ultimately saved in the end by your works, so salvation is by works.
> 
> If that's their argument it makes no logical sense.



Yes under that plan, it's really not grace at all.


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## formula1 (Jul 21, 2022)

Israel said:


> much going up in smoke


Smoldering ashes! For our Savior said, “It is finished.”


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2022)

formula1 said:


> Romans 4
> 1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
> 
> 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
> 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”


Like I've said before, if it was from me, I'd surely boast about it. I'd be on here everyday explaining that my flesh is justified by my works. I couldn't boast this to God so I might as well boast it to men.


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## Spotlite (Jul 21, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> And my point was the Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing.
> If this is true, then any works a man does, has to be from that life giving Spirit who are called according to God's purpose.
> 
> One may well do that stuff but he can't do it on his on accord just to prove he is a child of God and thus has salvation.


It was never about obtaining salvation. That’s what has always been misunderstood.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> It was never about obtaining salvation. That’s what has always been misunderstood.


Perhaps these discussions such as "False Theories About Grace" aren't just a rebuttal to you but to some of the other members? I'm pretty sure there are members on this forum that think other than just what you are saying as it pertains to Grace and not works.
Maybe if you give us another short summary of how you think it works. Let's say that I am called by God and He leads me to Jesus. I have the gift of salvation given to me by grace. I accept His plea. Now suppose later I succumb to alcohol or homosexual sex.
Are you saying that if I can't fix this or these, I'm going to loose the salvation that I once had?
Or are you saying that I'm going to loose the gift because the Holy Spirit has quit manifesting His works according to God's plan in my flesh?


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## Spotlite (Jul 21, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Perhaps these discussions such as "False Theories About Grace" aren't just a rebuttal to you but to some of the other members? I'm pretty sure there are members on this forum that think other than just what you are saying as it pertains to Grace and not works


I cant speak for other members but if something strikes me I do not mind speaking up. Grace is passed off as something of it`s own...........Grace itself does not do a thing for you. Grace is just the favor of God. I find nothing biblical where salvation comes from anything other than God.

By the grace of God you are saved. By the grace of the President you can be pardoned. But grace itself is nothing but the favor of the giver. 


> Maybe if you give us another short summary of how you think it works. Let's say that I am called by God and He leads me to Jesus. I have the gift of salvation given to me by grace. I accept His plea.


Ok, so you are pricked in your heart, lead to salvation. Lord I believe you are the one God, Paul said good, so does the devil.

One will use his talents, one will not - see how that "works" thing works?



> Now suppose later I succumb to alcohol or homosexual sex.
> Are you saying that if I can't fix this or these, I'm going to loose the salvation that I once had?
> Or are you saying that I'm going to loose the gift because the Holy Spirit has quit manifesting His works according to God's plan in my flesh?


Fortunately, I do not make these decisions, calls, judgements. It has been said here that a man has to restore that fellowship with the Father - I agree.

I know the spirit and flesh are contrary one to the other. The works of the spirit do not ever manifest in the flesh and vise versa. You are either in the flesh or in the spirit, but never both at the same time. You are certainly NOT going to be in the spirit committing adultery in the flesh - whoever believes that needs help.

I will go with the statement of "you ain`t holding hands with the devil and God at the same time".

I will refer you back to Abraham - build an alter and call on the name of the Lord. Abraham called on the name of the Lord multiple times.


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## Spotlite (Jul 21, 2022)

formula1 said:


> Romans 4
> 1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
> 
> 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
> 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”



James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works

That is why it is important not to rely on one verse. You gotta put it all together to get the whole truth.

Works aint going to save you, works will keep you close to God, though. But if you believe God, if you love God, you will obey the Gospel. You are not doing it to earn salvation, you are doing it because you love God. If you are not, scripture says your faith is dead.


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## formula1 (Jul 21, 2022)

Post #101 and #102.  I believe Jesus and Paul. In terms of examining yourself, I also believe James.

However, your last paragraph is pretty close. I simply disagree the you are doing works at all! God is working in you and through you according to His purpose and His will at work in you. The very reason grace is free is so we fall in love with God knowing what he has done.  You, as a result, can now walk by the Spirit.  Remember, it’s Christ in you, the hope of Glory! It is not possible for you to do it yourself.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
> 
> James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
> 
> ...


What does it mean to obey the gospel?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
> 
> James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
> 
> ...


I agree we've got to find that balance between the two. On the one hand what some of us might be alluding to is where or what exactly or how much of it all is from the Holy Spirit? 

Reading this;
Students of the New Testament will confront an apparent contradiction between the teachings of Paul and James on the subject of faith and works.

Perhaps it is best represented in the following passages. In his epistle to the Galatians, Paul wrote:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified....
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (Galatians 2:16; 3:6–7)​
Paul made very similar statements in his epistle to the Romans (see Romans 3:28; 4:1–3).

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-13-no-3-2012/paul-james-faith-works


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2022)

James, however, stated:
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?​Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?...​And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness....​Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (James 2:20–21, 23–24)​​Without yet defining their terms, we notice that in these passages, both Paul and James used the terms faith, works, and justified. Both Paul and James appealed to Abraham as an example of one who was justified. Both quoted from the same scripture, Genesis 15:6, which says that Abraham “believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness [or justification].” But Paul said that justification comes “by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law” (Galatians 2:16) while James said that “by works a man is justified, and not by faith only” (James 2:24).

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-13-no-3-2012/paul-james-faith-works

Again though, how much of it all comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?


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## Spotlite (Jul 21, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> What does it mean to obey the gospel?



For me it’s more about what it means to not obey the Gospel.

An example is Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name…….

Somewhere between Acts and Jude some dropped baptism. Why?

You made this statement - “I agree we've got to find that balance between the two.”

That’s correct, and the balance is putting it all together.

Dig back from Matthew to Revelation and figure out what that name is first, who’s name you do every deed in, how baptism fits in, what baptism is and who forbid the water? Where did it ever change? Who said baptism isn’t necessary, and what scripture are they using to over rude what’s written telling you to be baptized?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> For me it’s more about what it means to not obey the Gospel.
> 
> An example is Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name…….
> 
> ...


In Jesus name!


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> For me it’s more about what it means to not obey the Gospel.
> 
> An example is Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name…….
> 
> ...



The teachings of grace vs works have changed a lot during my lifetime. When I was younger most Churches were more about works. The Ten Commandments were everywhere. You used to see those white signs along the highways that would say "Repent or burn in He11" or "Turn lest ye burn."
Then slowly over time many churches learned more themselves and started teaching about grace and the new commandments replacing the old ones. 
I look at it as a positive thing, as it seems like the emphasis was placed on what Jesus did instead of what we did or can do. Same with what the Spirit can do for us. Plus teaching about love more than hate. When I was young, it seems like there was more hate in the Church than love. Plus back then the Churches had just as much if not more sin in them.  I would imagine they must have been ridden with a lot of guilt as well. Trying like hard to meed all that old criteria to get to Heaven. It was a total mess being on a Religious Roller Coaster. One day you think you are in by grace and the next day you think you are out because of works.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 21, 2022)

Grace cannot guarantee perfection and sinlessness to the saved (1 Cor. 3:16, 17; Rom. 6:16-23; 8:1-13; Heb. 10:26-29; 2 Pet. 2:20, 21).


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## Spotlite (Jul 21, 2022)

Israel said:


> Bible teachers are a dime dozen...actually, no, cheaper.


Bible teachers, or those commentaries that pervert the Gospel with every wind of doctrine - just Confess. Just Believe. Believe and is baptized. Endures to the end. Hand picked………which doctrine saves you??


Sorry, I’ll take the Bible over commentaries. 


Israel said:


> Men talking about another man who put his son on the altar to bolster _their point._
> 
> Almost funny.
> 
> And in the almost is found all the difference.



Don’t take this wrong but you wanted to be a huckleberry, yet you’ve failed to speak clearly on the subject, instead bark from behind bushes - why you’re no daisy, you’re no daisy at all?

There were two points to bolster:

1. Abraham acted on the heard Word of God. His faith wasn’t dead. 
2. Abraham built more than one alter. Not just the one to put his son on. In short, an alter is a place of offering to God. Other than an alter of prayer, where else are you going to restore your fellowship with the Father? 


Yea, you missed all that in the “almost funny” because being a doer of the Word is biblical and most likely not found in a commentary.


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## Spotlite (Jul 21, 2022)

Israel said:


> There is no "just" to it.
> 
> It either is, or isn't.


Which one of the 5 ways?


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 21, 2022)

It might seem like blasphemy to some to believe and teach the above-stated facts about grace, but facts are facts and when they are stated in plain Scriptures that any man can read for himself, it is foolhardy to reject them. To hold to some theory of man that some church makes the sum total of its religion is not worth the price one has to pay. It would be best to be honest with all Scriptures on a subject and believe them all instead of twisting a few to mean something they do not say and flatly rejecting what many others say on the subject.


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## formula1 (Jul 21, 2022)

It would better to let the Word of God speak without commentary or interpretation and with every scripture in context. Otherwise you’ll build your own kingdom and lead others astray as so many do. Those hand-picked scriptures interpreted to prove a point of view just don’t do it for me.

I fail, I sin, I error, I misspeak, I poorly represent my Lord sometimes. But I’m lifted up, I’m restored, I’m forgiven and my Jesus does it all.  There is no greater Love and He is my Rock, my hope my Comfort.  It is not possible for the flesh to be perfected, but the Spirit lives in me in spite of it.  Because Jesus paid with His blood for it!

Live your life in Joy and Love always to Father, Son and Holy Spirit!  It’s all that matters and you will not be surprised on that day!!!


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## Spotlite (Jul 21, 2022)

Israel said:


> You fabricated them, you may deal with them.
> 
> Christ is not divided.


No I did not lol!! Those are the answers given on here all the time when it comes to salvation. I never said I agreed with the "one scripture" versions.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 21, 2022)

Grace cannot encourage anarchy in God's government (Gen. 2:17; Rom. 1:18-32; 5:12-21; 8:1-13; Gal. 5:19-21; 6:7, 8; Jas. 5:19, 20).

Grace cannot guarantee unforfeitable life (Rom. 6:16-23; 8:1-13; Gal. 5:16-26; Jas. 5:19, 20; 2 Pet. 2:20,21; Heb. 10:26-29).


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2022)

Any other ideas on what it means to "obey the Gospel?"
Acts 6:7   
The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.

1 Peter 1:22   
Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,

Romans 6:17   
But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

The way I read it is twofold. First would be to believe Jesus paid the price for our sins and to obey that concept would be to preach it, teach it, and show it.
Next and to continue in that vain would be love. Love God and neighbor.


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## formula1 (Jul 21, 2022)

1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

And I think I will try to ignore the darkness as well!


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## gemcgrew (Jul 21, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Grace cannot guarantee perfection and sinlessness to the saved


Grace gives no merit to human righteousness. Grace makes a man completely dependent upon the perfect and sinless One.

This is why you hate it.


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## furtaker (Jul 21, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Grace gives no merit to human righteousness. Grace makes a man completely dependent upon the perfect and sinless One.
> 
> This is why you hate it.


You nailed it.


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## Spotlite (Jul 21, 2022)

Israel said:


> This is your assemblage, not mine...and if I have or have had even the remotest reference to "just" anything it would be in reference to Jesus the Christ as being singular in His being all and only source.


What I’m saying is take a poll - that’s the answers you get here on this forum (multiple all you gotta do you don’t need to do doctrines). No assertion needed.


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## furtaker (Jul 21, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That’s the whole misunderstood part of this grace / work’s argument. Salvation comes from God alone, not grace itself. It’s the grace of God (favor) to give you something you don’t deserve.
> 
> Salvation is never about works.
> 
> ...


A dead faith is still faith. It's just useless to other believers because it's not helping them with their problems. And a non-working faith can't save a believer from disappointment, loss of rewards, and discipline from God his father.

And the gospel does have to make logical sense. Salvation is by grace through faith and a lost man will not believe something that doesn't make sense in his mind.

And the message that salvation is a free gift by God's unmerited favor through faith, but that you have to be a doer of the Word or your faith isn't real, doesn't make logical sense to a lost man. That begs the question, is it by grace or works? The Apostle Paul  said it can only be one way or the other. I believed that "working faith" message for a long time and the gospel and the Bible never made sense to me. Because grace and works are mutually exclusive. I was confused and if you are honest, I bet you are confused as well.


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## Spotlite (Jul 21, 2022)

furtaker said:


> A dead faith is still faith. It's just useless to other believers because it's not helping them with their problems. And a non-working faith can't save a believer from disappointment, loss of rewards, and discipline from God his father.
> 
> And the gospel does have to make logical sense. Salvation is by grace through faith and a lost man will not believe something that doesn't make sense in his mind.
> 
> And the message that salvation is a free gift by God's unmerited favor through faith, but that you have to be a doer of the Word or your faith isn't real, doesn't make logical sense to a lost man. That begs the question, is it by grace or works? The Apostle Paul  said it can only be one way or the other. I believed that "working faith" message for a long time and the gospel and the Bible never made sense to me. Because grace and works are mutually exclusive. I was confused and if you are honest, I bet you are confused as well.


I’ll just disagree with you on dead faith being faith.

I’m nit confused at all. There’s a great deal of scripture concerning salvation that you object to.

Your post above says you’re still confused.


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## furtaker (Jul 21, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I’ll just disagree with you on dead faith being faith.
> 
> I’m nit confused at all. There’s a great deal of scripture concerning salvation that you object to.
> 
> Your post above says you’re still confused.


You think faith is works.

I don't think I'm the confused one. ?


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## Spotlite (Jul 21, 2022)

furtaker said:


> You think salvation is by grace, but you have to do good works.
> 
> I don't think I'm the confused one. ?


See, I never said that.

What I did say is faith without works is dead. Like it or not, that is scripture. If you’d take time to read all of my posts you’ll see where I stand.

Works don’t save you. Grace does not save you. God saves you. It’s by the grace of God that he gives you something you don’t deserve. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The Word if God gives you instruction. If you can’t or won’t act on the Word of God, your faith is dead.

Sone if y’all try to turn that into a working for salvation thing. You can’t be more wrong.


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## furtaker (Jul 21, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> See, I never said that.
> 
> What I did say is faith without works is dead. Like it or not, that is scripture. If you’d take time to read all of my posts you’ll see where I stand.
> 
> ...


So if he gives you something you don't deserve, and works don't save you, can a person with no good works go to heaven?


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## Spotlite (Jul 21, 2022)

furtaker said:


> So if he gives you something you don't deserve, and works don't save you, can a person with no good works go to heaven?


Did He say something like they “didn’t obey the Gospel”?

Abraham was justified by his works, not saved by his works. In other words his works proved where his faith was. His works maintained a relationship with the Father. Did He not also say there'll be those He says depart from me I never knew you? That’s not knew as in having no knowledge, that’s knew as in a relationship.

The answer to your question isn’t mine to give.

Don’t confuse works of being obedient to scripture to works of just staying busy doing something. If you love Him you’ll keep His commandments. I assume if you don’t, you won’t. Keeping His commandments are works. They are things you actually do. Maybe that’s your answer?


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## furtaker (Jul 21, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Did He say something like they “didn’t obey the Gospel”?
> 
> Abraham was justified by his works, not saved by his works. In other words his works proved where his faith was. His works maintained a relationship with the Father. Did He not also say there'll be those He says depart from me I never knew you? That’s not knew as in having no knowledge, that’s knew as in a relationship.
> 
> ...


You would have saved yourself a lot of typing if you had just said, "No". ?


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## Spotlite (Jul 21, 2022)

furtaker said:


> You would have saved yourself a lot of typing if you had just said, "No". ?


To me that’s not a discussion but ok. But I did save my and yourself a lot of typing by not saying “no”. ?

I’ll cry “Uncle”. I’m headed to feed hogs late. Had grandkids all afternoon and with the storm outside it was a good day for pop cycles and homemade peach ice cream.


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## Spotlite (Jul 22, 2022)

Israel said:


> There are _no works _(of any eternal merit) that are not _already prepared, predestined, ordained_ that are not dependent upon revelation in faith for discovery...for the "walking in" as an apostle put it. These are God's works...the man may be immersed in them, experience them of such personal intensity as to sometimes be confused, but they remain, regardless of any error in interpretation of source, God's work and works. Prepared by Him for the disciple (again)...to walk in.
> 
> The Lord made quite clear Himself His dependency upon being "shown"...(and His confidence He would be shown...more) with nothing issuing from Himself, not even the _nicest of things._ Even _the most religious of things._
> 
> ...





> There are _no works _(of any eternal merit) that are not _already prepared, predestined, ordained_


So far..................good. Yes, God will prepare a way for you.



> Many do, and have taken such stand. "Go into all the world and preach the gospel" is taken as some sort of endorsement of their doing in "see, I am fulfilling (what is called) the great commission" (I do what the Bible says!) when in truth they have not yet had, nor preached the gospel to their very own selves.
> 
> But it does "feel good" to self endorse one's self. Such foolish talk of "I do what the Bible says" or even "I will do what the Bible says" is no more than a man seeking to endorse himself by letters.



Catawampus train wreck. As Trump would say - fake news. 

Seriously, that is an arrogant way to address anyone being doers of the heard Word of God and following the leading of the Spirit. If a man feels like God is sending him to Africa then he must follow that leading. 

Most are not programmed to align themselves with the mentality of looking at yesterday and saying wow, I was in Africa preaching, it was God`s Will. Some actually have faith it is God`s Will and go preach. Hindsight is 20/20 but it takes zero faith to see yesterday. 

You done got all side ways with this works thing trying to make it say something that it is not, no one ever said that works saves you. 

Scripture disagrees with you, though. You gotta have works. You gotta follow the instructed Word of God. Scripture tells you why ALL scripture is given. If you can`t follow the instructed Word of God scripture says your faith is dead. If you think works mean more than that then maybe back up a little try again. I have not seen any "pro works" posts indicating that works mean anything more than that.


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## Spotlite (Jul 22, 2022)

Israel said:


> Why would it be no surprise to me the facility with which you would quote Trump?


Because you went with the Joe Biden approach. 

Read Romans 10: 13 - 17 if you still have heart burn on faith / works and following the heard Word of God.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 22, 2022)

The doctrine of grace is one of the most simple ones in Scripture. Grace simply means unmerited favor and love of God toward man. If one would understand this fact and apply it to all the works, promises, and dealings of God with man, everything would be very simple to understand. There is nothing God has ever done or ever will do that is not a result of His love and favor. The cross is an act of grace, and to everyone that God blesses in any degree on the basis of the work of the cross, It is a blessing of grace and therefore an act of grace. If God did not favor man with the blessings He gives him, he would never get such benefits. On the other hand, because God favors man and loves him enough to bless him with all that He has promised, everything that He has promised is a promise of grace, and every act He has preforms for man is an act of grace Hence to make grace a super-idea beyond human reason and understanding is to cause confusion. Any theory of grace that slanders God and makes one Scripture a lie is bound to be false itself. Any statement about grace must be in perfect harmony with all Scripture, or it is wrong.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 22, 2022)

Israel said:


> For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
> 
> How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!



And you just answer the question about faith without works is dead which is true. God had to do works (grace love and favor for man). To do what he done for man, Jesus had to do works (grace love and favor for man). to do what he done for man, die on the cross, if any man preaches to anyone witnesses to anyone, or anything that is the truth of the Word of God, he is doing works of grace and faith. (Love and favor) because that man has faith by his works. How will they hear or see without works of faith?


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## Spotlite (Jul 22, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> And you just answer the question about faith without works is dead which is true. God had to do works (grace love and favor for man). To do what he done for man, Jesus had to do works (grace love and favor for man). to do what he done for man, die on the cross, if any man preaches to anyone witnesses to anyone, or anything that is the truth of the Word of God, he is doing works of grace and faith. (Love and favor) because that man has faith by his works. How will they hear or see without works of faith?


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. Wonder if they even attend Sunday services, being scared they’ll give the appearance of working to save themselves ya know.


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## furtaker (Jul 22, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> The doctrine of grace is one of the most simple ones in Scripture.


That's rich coming from you.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 22, 2022)

It is so comforting to witness the many reasons for periodic revivals.  From gold to dross and from dross to gold, the ups and downs of the Hebrews  continue for all our understanding.


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## The Original Rooster (Jul 22, 2022)

The book of James is a good place to go for answers to many questions regarding faith and works.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 23, 2022)

If God will not impute sin to those in His favor, then none of us would be sinners and be condemned, for Adam and all the race started out in God's favor. Adam and his race lost God's favor, and sin was imputed to them. So, it is today. No man can sin and get by with it. every one who sins incurs the death penalty and must be redeemed and forgiven again to have the penalty cancelled. Satan told Adam that sin would not cause death. God said it would. Adam believed the devil and died, and so it is with anyone today who believes Satan's lie that death will not result from sin, provided he has ever been in God's favor or grace. Men die just as Adam did and will continue to do so until sin and death are destroyed. There would be no meaning to the many Scriptures on sin and moral responsibility if one could do as he pleased and still be in God's favor.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 23, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> There would be no meaning to the many Scriptures on sin and moral responsibility if one could do as he pleased and still be in God's favor.



It is not about what we are pleased to do. That arises from self, centers in self and ends in self. A man ought to repent of his creature worship.

For I _am_ the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 25, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> It is not about what we are pleased to do. That arises from self, centers in self and ends in self. A man ought to repent of his creature worship.
> 
> For I _am_ the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.



If a man don't know about himself and how his life stands with the Lord if he's a sinner or been saved and backslides, then he would never get saved and would go to He11.
And if people knew about the Bible as they do about self they would be in a lot better condition than some is.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 25, 2022)

The passages used to teach unconditional favor of God can be and must be harmonized with the many hundreds which teach that man can lose God's favor again through sin. No man can separate another man from the love of God, but sin can. This has been the only that ever, separated God and man. God Himself said "Your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear (Isa. 59:2) and this will always be the case. God cannot and will not tolerate sin in anyone. This is why He gave Jesus by grace to save all men from their sins, and those who do not chose the salvation of God will die in their sins regardless of the work of Christ on the cross.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 25, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> If a man don't know about himself and how his life stands with the Lord if he's a sinner or been saved and backslides, then he would never get saved and would go to He11.
> And if people knew about the Bible as they do about self they would be in a lot better condition than some is.


Free Grace can shut a man up to his words.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 25, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Free Grace can shut a man up to his words.



But the truth of God's Word will stand!


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 25, 2022)

There are many passages which teach that a man can be eternally secure in Christ on condition that he gets saved and stays saved (2 Tim. 1:12; Jude 24; 2 Pet. 1:3-9; Jn. 15:1-7; Heb. 6:1-9; 10:26-29). Man will always be a free moral agent regardless of his relationship with God. It is the life of God that is eternal, and the believer has it as long as he remains in Christ. The minute he gets out of Christ he loses that life even though it is eternal. And eternal thing may be lost, and there is all the difference between an eternal thing and the eternal possession of a thing forever, for God is eternal.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 25, 2022)

You left Lucifer out and Demons who were one time in God's favor and grace, and as sinless in the beginning. Abaddon Apollyon, Demons locusts, Demon horsemen, Pre-Adamites, Adam and Eve and the whole race were once in God's favor, but they sinned and died because of Sin (Gen. 2:17; 3:1-19; Rom. 5:12-21). Adam is called "the son of God" in Luke 3:38, so here is another example of a "son of God " falling from grace and losing eternal life by sin.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 26, 2022)

Grace can make a man give up on himself.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 26, 2022)

It may appear to these interpreters that some are making Man's will greater than the grace of God. But this answer that is true not only of grace but of many other attributes of God that cannot possibly bless rebels when they choose not to accept of these blessings. It is not so much that man's will is greater than any attribute of God, but that God cannot do, and he has promised not to do certain things for man until man accepts of His grace and freely chooses and submits to the work of God in him. GOD SIMPLY CANNOT AND WILL NOT BREAK HIS OWN LAWS AND BE A DESPOT FOR ANY MAN. HE WILL NOT FORCE ANY FREE MORAL AGENT TO CONFORM TO HIS WILL. Therefore it is up to free moral agents to choose whether they want God's grace, love, or favor and to what extent. If it were left wholly up to God's will in the matter, then all free moral agents would conform to His will, and all would be blessed alike, and all would enjoy the grace and favor of God to the full. As it is now, no one can accuse God of not having love for all men if they want to become recipients of that love. The fact that all are not saved and even all the saved do not partake of God's love to the same extent proves that God's blessings according to His grace are not wholly dependent upon Him. Neither are they wholly dependent upon free will man. IT TAKES BOTH THE WILL OF GOD AND THE WILL OF MAN IN FULL CO-OPERATION TO DEMONSTRATE THE FULLNESS OF GOD'S LOVE AND GRACE. One cannot work for the good of one master when he is serving the other. Thus God's grace or love is naturally limited by the free moral agency of man.


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## Spotlite (Jul 26, 2022)

Israel said:


> Why does a man lie?
> 
> A man lies to establish_ his own _credibility.
> 
> ...





> In one example the contention is that salvation, as able to be lost is supported in all by Judas fall subsequent to being at "one time" a true disciple as testified to his preaching and whatever working of miracles may have taken place at his hands. This so called "proves" Judas was once saved, and in argument as _such salvation as can be lost_...and the proof of this is the power assumed manifested at one time through him.


I think you missed it, it is a-lot bigger than Judas. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. How that happen, that Christ has become no effect to you and that fall from grace thing? Seems that at one point Christ was an effect to you and you were in Grace? Interesting how that be.



> But the corollary to this, no less made by those who seek to hold claim upon such salvation by their testimony of miracles and prophesying "in the Lord's name" are not told "those were not true miracles" or any such...but "depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I _*never knew* _you."



Only by those who seek to hold claim upon such salvation by their miracles and prophesying.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 26, 2022)

Grace cannot set aside forever all condemnation for future sins. It can only set aside condemnation as long as a man stays free from sin. The modern fallacy that judicial forgiveness covers ALL sins, past, present and future, that God does not impute sins of believers to them, and that God never condemns a saved man for any sins committed, but charges them to the Lord Jesus Christ, IS ONE OF THE MOST UNSCRIPTURAL AND DEMON-INSPIRED THEORIES IN ANY CHURCH. It is by those who hold to such a theory that not even earthly courts could punish the same man for his crime two different times and that Christ bore the sins of all men he cannot bear them twice. This is all true as far as it goes, but it is only half truth. Christ bore sins of all, but no one gets saved until he repents and asks for mercy.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 26, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Grace can make a man give up on himself.



No a man gives up on his self for not having enough grace, (Love and favor) for God and our Lord Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 26, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> No a man gives up on his self for not having enough grace, (Love and favor) for God and our Lord Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit.


You ought to make up your mind.


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## formula1 (Jul 26, 2022)

Anyone who believes so-called once saved alway saved or God forgives all sin past, present, and future is really only saying God’s grace is completely done and Jesus has sat down at God’s right hand waiting for the destruction of all His enemies.

We who are born in the Spirit still have a flesh to contend with. We still are slaves to righteousness. We don’t put off the flesh easily and put on Christ perfectly. We are men who are being renewed by the day to the completed work of Christ.

In me it is not complete. In Christ, it is done!  Grace is not weakened by any human effort! We still need to grow to the measure of the fullness of Christ, but Grace did not change!

But you know what, God has promised He will complete it! I think I can find a tiny mustard seed of faith to believe Him.

Don’t tell me God can’t do because over and over in me, God has done! May He be glorified!

He has absolute power over this so called ‘free moral agent’!  Freedom in Christ doesn’t quite look like freedom in the world!

He who has an ear let him hear!


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## formula1 (Jul 26, 2022)

It is enough to rejoice that our names are in His book for that is is all we have!


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## formula1 (Jul 27, 2022)

Faithful indeed!

Colossians 1
19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Romans 5 
1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 28, 2022)

The will of God is that after one is forgiven and becomes a new creature in Christ he is supposed to quit the sin business. Jesus told several, "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee" (Jn. 5:14; 8:11). Jesus taught that "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of " (Jn. 8:34).  He further taught that the work of the Holy Spirit throughout this age would be to "reprove the world of sin" (Jn. 16:7-11).


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## gemcgrew (Jul 28, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> The will of God is that after one is forgiven and becomes a new creature in Christ he is supposed to quit the sin business.


Then you ought to quit peddling it!


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 28, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Then you ought to quit peddling it!


Cause you really need to know the truth to keep you from maybe sinning.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 28, 2022)

Statements such as "taketh away the sin of the world" and "take away our sins" simply refer to the fact that Christ bore the sins of all men of all ages, past, present, and future men, but redemption can benefit only those who personally confess their sins and accept the work of Christ on the cross for them. If this be not true and if Christ saves all men simply because He died for all, regardless of their meeting any conditions in their personal lives, then all are saved from sin and will go to Heaven, and there is no need of further preaching the gospel.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 29, 2022)

There is no Scripture in the Bible that teaches that God forgives at one time all past, present, and future sins. There are Scriptures which tell us that all sins committed up to the time of repentance are forgiven and blotted out and therefore at the time of forgiveness there is not one sin that God holds against a man. GOD PROMISED TO KEEP MEN FREE FROM SIN FROM THIS POINT ON IF MEN WOULD MEET CERTAIN CONDITONS. GOD NEVER DID PROMISE ANYTHING BUT THIS. NO MAN EVER RECEIVED ANY THING BUT THIS. God never required of man anything, but confession of sins already committed. Only sins that have been committed can be forgiven. This is clear from all Scripture (Ex. 32:30-34; Lev. 4:2-35; 5:1-17; 6:2-30; Num. 5:1-7; Ps. 32:1-5; 38:1-18; 51:1-13; Mt. 3:6; 18:21-35; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 26:18; 2 Pet. 1:9; 1 Jn. 1:9; Rev. 1:5). It is ridiculous to teach that future sins are forgiven before they are committed.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 31, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> There is no Scripture in the Bible that teaches that God forgives at one time all past, present, and future sins. There are Scriptures which tell us that all sins committed up to the time of repentance are forgiven and blotted out and therefore at the time of forgiveness there is not one sin that God holds against a man. GOD PROMISED TO KEEP MEN FREE FROM SIN FROM THIS POINT ON IF MEN WOULD MEET CERTAIN CONDITONS. GOD NEVER DID PROMISE ANYTHING BUT THIS. NO MAN EVER RECEIVED ANY THING BUT THIS. God never required of man anything, but confession of sins already committed. Only sins that have been committed can be forgiven. This is clear from all Scripture (Ex. 32:30-34; Lev. 4:2-35; 5:1-17; 6:2-30; Num. 5:1-7; Ps. 32:1-5; 38:1-18; 51:1-13; Mt. 3:6; 18:21-35; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 26:18; 2 Pet. 1:9; 1 Jn. 1:9; Rev. 1:5). It is ridiculous to teach that future sins are forgiven before they are committed.


Christ met the conditions for His people.

You are not free to believe it.


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## StriperAddict (Aug 1, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> It is ridiculous to teach that future sins are forgiven before they are committed.



And how many of your sins were in the future ... WHEN Christ died?

Ans: ALL


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## Spotlite (Aug 1, 2022)

StriperAddict said:


> And how many of your sins were in the future ... WHEN Christ died?
> 
> Ans: ALL


I keep using adultery as an example because most churches have grown accustomed to justifying sin; a lot of things are “just life” now, based on sins being forgiven before they’re committed - is it that the provision for forgiveness is a finished work and you need to repent of your sins after salvation, or is it that repentance is no longer needed? Say you get caught up in adultery after “salvation”; do you need to repent - yes or no?


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## tell sackett (Aug 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I keep using adultery as an example because most churches have grown accustomed to justifying sin; a lot of things are “just life” now, based on sins being forgiven before they’re committed - is it that the provision for forgiveness is a finished work and you need to repent of your sins after salvation, or is it that repentance is no longer needed? Say you get caught up in adultery after “salvation”; do you need to repent - yes or no?


Yes


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 1, 2022)

StriperAddict said:


> And how many of your sins were in the future ... WHEN Christ died?
> 
> Ans: ALL



Grace cannot forgive future sins of the saved that have not yet been committed, for only what is confessed can be forgiven (1 Jn. 1:7; Rev. 2:5, 16, 22; 3:19; Mt. 6:12-15; Lk. 13:1-5; Mk. 1:15; 6:12; Acts 2:38; 3:19).


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## RegularJoe (Aug 1, 2022)

Isn't there a clear distinction between:
a. Confessing a sin; &
b. Requesting forgiveness for a sin?

Definition of confess: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/confess 
Definition of forgive: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/forgive


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 1, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> Isn't there a clear distinction between:
> a. Confessing a sin; &
> b. Requesting forgiveness for a sin?
> 
> ...



Either way sin is sin, and one has to get forgiveness of it or go to He11 even if they have been saved.


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## furtaker (Aug 1, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> or go to He11 even if they have been saved.


So what have they been saved from?


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## StriperAddict (Aug 1, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Grace cannot forgive future sins of the saved that have not yet been committed, for only what is confessed can be forgiven (1 Jn. 1:7; Rev. 2:5, 16, 22; 3:19; Mt. 6:12-15; Lk. 13:1-5; Mk. 1:15; 6:12; Acts 2:38; 3:19).


Then you believe your confession is greater than the blood shed 2000+ years ago to redeem you from sin? 
Then your effectiveness at remembering each sin MUST be on the line too! How pathetic a strategy to live that becomes, no promise of life, no living from Christ, and that it all depends on us and our many confessions!

It's the gospel that frees us from the wicked tyranny of self sufficiency.  Any boast in how well you have your confessions completed is just a powerless form of self righteousness! Or it's Christ dying over and over again.  Only the shed blood provided ONCE can cleanse from ALL sin.
-----
To answer Spotlite; of course in committing sin(s) you're going to be remorseful, because repentance is a gift from the new heart Christ birthed to you at salvation! You would not have remorse nor repentance without a new heart!
The Spirit gives you the right to come boldly to the throne of grace, and has you come to Father and re - recognize that you are a blood bought child of God that stumbled, and so you discuss the old lying beliefs that got you to sin.  Then God begins to renew your mind in His truth, not as some judge who turns His back on you for every sin you've committed.  Rather, you are led to trust and depend on God's grace again. *Your repentance becomes a rest in His once-for-all completed, perfect work,  and yields the fruit of trust, dependency and greater intimacy with Christ.  *
Repentance is RELATIONAL living FROM being forgiven, not RE - forgiven all over again.  It's a change of an old lying belief that for a time deceived you. If anything, honestly discussing old beliefs leads to living real with Dad, talking/praying over your struggles and growing in your relational awareness of what God is doing in revealing who He is and who He has made you in Christ. 

Done.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 1, 2022)

StriperAddict said:


> Then you believe your confession is greater than the blood shed 2000+ years ago to redeem you from sin?
> Then your effectiveness at remembering each sin MUST be on the line too! How pathetic a strategy to live that becomes, no promise of life, no living from Christ, and that it all depends on us and our many confessions!
> 
> It's the gospel that frees us from the wicked tyranny of self sufficiency.  Any boast in how well you have your confessions completed is just a powerless form of self righteousness! Or it's Christ dying over and over again.  Only the shed blood provided ONCE can cleanse from ALL sin.
> ...



Grace cannot make any sinner a child of God in the same sense in which Jesus became the Son of God for He is the only begotten Son (Jn. 3:16). Men are merely adopted (Rom. 8:14-16) and cleansed from sin (1 Jn. 1:7-9).


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## tell sackett (Aug 1, 2022)

StriperAddict said:


> Then you believe your confession is greater than the blood shed 2000+ years ago to redeem you from sin?
> Then your effectiveness at remembering each sin MUST be on the line too! How pathetic a strategy to live that becomes, no promise of life, no living from Christ, and that it all depends on us and our many confessions!
> 
> It's the gospel that frees us from the wicked tyranny of self sufficiency.  Any boast in how well you have your confessions completed is just a powerless form of self righteousness! Or it's Christ dying over and over again.  Only the shed blood provided ONCE can cleanse from ALL sin.
> ...



And done. Very well said.


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## Spotlite (Aug 1, 2022)

StriperAddict said:


> To answer Spotlite; of course in committing sin(s) you're going to be remorseful, because repentance is a gift from the new heart Christ birthed to you at salvation! You would not have remorse nor repentance without a new heart!
> The Spirit gives you the right to come boldly to the throne of grace, and has you come to Father and re - recognize that you are a blood bought child of God that stumbled, and so you discuss the old lying beliefs that got you to sin.  Then God begins to renew your mind in His truth, not as some judge who turns His back on you for every sin you've committed.  Rather, you are led to trust and depend on God's grace again. *Your repentance becomes a rest in His once-for-all completed, perfect work,  and yields the fruit of trust, dependency and greater intimacy with Christ.  *
> Repentance is RELATIONAL living FROM being forgiven, not RE - forgiven all over again.  It's a change of an old lying belief that for a time deceived you. If anything, honestly discussing old beliefs leads to living real with Dad, talking/praying over your struggles and growing in your relational awareness of what God is doing in revealing who He is and who He has made you in Christ.
> 
> Done.


Ok that’s an explanation I can agree with. Most often the OSAS argument gets pushed with little motivation to explain what it means - leaving the Reader to think that “you can continue dwelling in your sins and it’s just fine”


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## RegularJoe (Aug 2, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> _Isn't there a clear distinction between_:
> a. Confessing a sin; &
> b. Requesting forgiveness for a sin?
> 
> ...





Banjo Picker said:


> Either way sin is sin, and one has to get forgiveness of it or go to He11 even if they have been saved.


With all respect due ..... I will guess that it is okay for me, _then_, to take your view as something on the order of '_yes there is a distinction_.'


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## RegularJoe (Aug 2, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Either way sin is sin, and one has to get forgiveness of it or go to He11 even if they have been saved.


In your view then ... I need to keep '_working_' at:
1.  Being alert to all my sins & confess _each_
     (known & unknown to me, as well as, of omission & commission) 
2.  + ask for forgiveness for each,
3.  and _if I miss one_ along the way before I mortally kick off, 
4.  then I may assume that I am heading to he11?
Thanks.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 2, 2022)

It's not complicated. Luke 18:9-14


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## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> In your view then ... I need to keep '_working_' at:
> 1.  Being alert to all my sins & confess _each_
> (known & unknown to me, as well as, of omission & commission)
> 2.  + ask for forgiveness for each,
> ...


Here’s hoping you have a really comfortable chair.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 4, 2022)

Grace cannot keep men saved when they are sinning against God.

James 5:19 Brethren if any of you do err from the truth and, one convert him;

7 FACTS ABOUT BACKSLIDERS
It is possible for Brethren or Christians to err from the truth and become unconverted (v 19; Lk. 22:32)

An erring Christian can be converted again (v 19, 20; Lk. 22:23)

An erring Christian becomes a sinner again if he sins (v 20; Rom. 6:14-23)

An erring Christian incurs the death penalty again when he sins (v 20; Ez. 18:24; Rom. 8:12, 13; Gal. 5:19-21)

If the erring Christian is saved from his error his soul will be saved again from death (20; 1 Jn. 1:9; 1 Jn 5:16; Rev. 2:5)

If he repents and is saved again from death his sins will be forgiven and hidden (v 20; 1 Jn. 1:9; Rev. 2:5)

If he does not repent, he will be lost and will have to pay the penalty for sin (v 20; Rom. 6:14-23; 8:12,13; 2 Tim. 2:12; Ez. 18:24; Heb. 6:4-6


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## gemcgrew (Aug 7, 2022)

Grace kept David as much as when he was in the arms of Bathsheba... as when he was killing Goliath.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 8, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Grace kept David as much as when he was in the arms of Bathsheba... as when he was killing Goliath.



Noah found grace in the sight of God because he was RIGHTEOUS, and God FAVORED HIM BECAUSE OF THIS (Gen. 6:8; 7:1). God had MERCY ON HIM AND HIS FAMILY. If Noah had not been RIGHTEOUS GOD WOULD NOT HAD MERCY ON HIM. He would have destroyed him and his house with the rest of the ungodly. (SINNERS) This cannot be disputed if we believe the record.


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## tell sackett (Aug 8, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> In your view then ... I need to keep '_working_' at:
> 1.  Being alert to all my sins & confess _each_
> (known & unknown to me, as well as, of omission & commission)
> 2.  + ask for forgiveness for each,
> ...


Just because


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## brutally honest (Aug 8, 2022)

StriperAddict said:


> Then you believe your confession is greater than the blood shed 2000+ years ago to redeem you from sin?
> Then your effectiveness at remembering each sin MUST be on the line too! How pathetic a strategy to live that becomes, no promise of life, no living from Christ, and that it all depends on us and our many confessions!
> 
> It's the gospel that frees us from the wicked tyranny of self sufficiency.  Any boast in how well you have your confessions completed is just a powerless form of self righteousness! Or it's Christ dying over and over again.  Only the shed blood provided ONCE can cleanse from ALL sin.
> ...



On this issue, I’m with Banjo Picker.

Some of you guys really need to read spiritual books written before 2000.  I understand why this “Dr. Feelgood” gospel is popular, but that doesn’t make it biblical.

The Reformers would certainly take issue with it, but you don’t even have to go back that far.  Whitefield, Spurgeon, Wesley, etc. have gotta be rolling over in their graves.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 8, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Noah found grace in the sight of God because he was RIGHTEOUS, and God FAVORED HIM BECAUSE OF THIS (Gen. 6:8; 7:1). God had MERCY ON HIM AND HIS FAMILY. If Noah had not been RIGHTEOUS GOD WOULD NOT HAD MERCY ON HIM. He would have destroyed him and his house with the rest of the ungodly. (SINNERS) This cannot be disputed if we believe the record.


Is your default position always anti-Christ? Do you really have no clue as to why Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord? Why he was preserved before the foundation of the world?


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## tell sackett (Aug 8, 2022)

Righteousness before grace. There is no hope for any single one of us. There is none righteous, no, not one.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 9, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Is your default position always anti-Christ? Do you really have no clue as to why Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord? Why he was preserved before the foundation of the world?



Grace cannot be responsibility should saved men backslide and be finally lost (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:4; Rev. 2:5; 3:2; Jas. 5:19-20; Gal. 5:16-26).


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