# Romans 1: 21-32



## 1988USMC (Jun 26, 2015)

Five people in black robes once again "demonstrated" that they are smarter than all the people in all the states that voted to ban same-sex marriage. Lets face it, we are all a bunch of idiots! 
At least when I meet Jesus face to face I can say that I had absolutely nothing to do with this debacle.
God Almighty have mercy on your people.
Pray for America, the church, the persecution that is about to start against the church, all Christians that they have the strength to remain faithful to the end, that the glorious return of Jesus is near, and for the homosexuals to repent, turn to God, and live a changed life rejoicing in the finished work of Christ.

Semper Fi (to the bitter end)


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## ryanh487 (Jun 26, 2015)

While I do not support gay marriage, and am morally opposed to homosexuality and view it as a sinful lifestyle choice, I do believe it is important to remember the following:

It is not the church's job to convict the lost of sin.  
It is not the church's job to convert the confused.
It is not the church's job to condemn or pass judgement.

It is the Holy Spirit's job to reveal sin in our lives.

It is the church's sole and only purpose to walk so closely with Christ that we shine His light so brightly to the world through unconditional love that they are drawn to the call of the Holy Spirit. We are all sinners, and our bad attitude or the lie we tell our wives or whatever else make us as guilty of breaking the Law of God as homosexuality does.  It is our job to show the world the joy of living in the law of God, that they may seek Him for themselves, not berate them for falling short of it.

The wailing and gnashing of teeth and public condemnation and protesting DOES NOT FURTHER HIS KINGDOM.  In fact I believe it breaks His heart just as much as their sin that those who bear His name are pushing so many away from Him with their actions.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 26, 2015)

ryanh487 said:


> While I do not support gay marriage, and am morally opposed to homosexuality and view it as a sinful lifestyle choice, I do believe it is important to remember the following:
> 
> It is not the church's job to convict the lost of sin.
> It is not the church's job to convert the confused.
> ...



Just quoting this so I can read it with a different background...Love it!


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 26, 2015)

1988USMC said:


> Five people in black robes once again "demonstrated" that they are smarter than all the people in all the states that voted to ban same-sex marriage. Lets face it, we are all a bunch of idiots!
> At least when I meet Jesus face to face I can say that I had absolutely nothing to do with this debacle.
> God Almighty have mercy on your people.
> Pray for America, the church, the persecution that is about to start against the church, all Christians that they have the strength to remain faithful to the end, that the glorious return of Jesus is near, and for the homosexuals to repent, turn to God, and live a changed life rejoicing in the finished work of Christ.
> ...



In relation to Romans 1 21-31 the very next verse is Romans 2:1. How do you relate it to the previous verses you referenced?

Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 26, 2015)

1988USMC said:


> Five people in black robes once again "demonstrated" that they are smarter than all the people in all the states that voted to ban same-sex marriage. Lets face it, we are all a bunch of idiots!
> At least when I meet Jesus face to face I can say that I had absolutely nothing to do with this debacle.
> God Almighty have mercy on your people.
> Pray for America, the church, the persecution that is about to start against the church, all Christians that they have the strength to remain faithful to the end, that the glorious return of Jesus is near, and for the homosexuals to repent, turn to God, and live a changed life rejoicing in the finished work of Christ.
> ...



Honestly I think this ruling does nothing but further validate what we already knew.... the country as a whole is spiritually bankrupt.  

It  should have no bearing on believers.  Our kingdom is not here and this surely doesn't affect Christ's sovereignty nor alter God's plan.

P.S.  As a young man I pledged to give my life for my Country and was fully prepared to do so.  I would not do the same today, because THAT Country no longer exists.  It's been replaced by one that openly endorses perversity and condemns God's precepts.  

Now that I'm older I'm still fully prepared to give my life for a Kingdom if need be,  but this Kingdom will never fail me.  It's built on The Eternal Truth.


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## 1988USMC (Jun 26, 2015)

I am the first to admit that I am a sinner! I am not judging, I am simply stating that this issue will never have my support. I believe that the suggestion that I am somehow judging is misguided, I learned that you should hate the sin but love the sinner. My only hope is that these people would repent and find the same peace I have through the grace of God through the blood of Jesus Christ.
I will not apologize for suggesting that persecution of the church is forthcoming. I think time will prove me correct on that point.
I agree with SemperFiDawg about serving in the USMC, I was glad and proud to do it, but I don't believe I could bring myself to do the same now.


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## 1988USMC (Jun 26, 2015)

Is it not the mandate of the Christian to share the good news with everyone you meet? Whether they do anything with it is up to them.
Doesn't the act of witnessing sometimes lead to conviction about the sin present in ones life? Doesn't the act of witnessing also demonstrate my love for the person, while disregarding the sin?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 26, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Honestly I think this ruling does nothing but further validate what we already knew.... the country as a whole is spiritually bankrupt.
> 
> It  should have no bearing on believers.  Our kingdom is not here and this surely doesn't affect Christ's sovereignty nor alter God's plan.
> 
> ...



Do you really see our country as being more sinful than before or do you see the US moving in a different direction from God other than the sin route? I would agree that there might be more American's that don't identify themselves as Christian but I don't believe there is more sin in America than 100 years ago. I don't see the world as a more evil place than 100 years ago.
Nothing alters God's sovereignty or his plan.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 26, 2015)

1988USMC said:


> I am the first to admit that I am a sinner! I am not judging, I am simply stating that this issue will never have my support. I believe that the suggestion that I am somehow judging is misguided, I learned that you should hate the sin but love the sinner. My only hope is that these people would repent and find the same peace I have through the grace of God through the blood of Jesus Christ.
> I will not apologize for suggesting that persecution of the church is forthcoming. I think time will prove me correct on that point.
> I agree with SemperFiDawg about serving in the USMC, I was glad and proud to do it, but I don't believe I could bring myself to do the same now.



Again, how does Romans 2:1 apply to us in relation to how we apply it with the preceding verses?

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

Paul presents these heterosexuals who abandon God and exchange worshiping him for idols. They abandon natural sex with the opposite sex. They exchange hetero sex for gay sex. They "exchanged" the truth about God for a lie. They "exchanged' hetero sex for gay sex.
Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

Do you know anyone this evil? These are some terrible people. I'm talking a whole village, not individuals spread out across the world. Perhaps a whole country, gossipers even. Slanderers, ruthless people. So terrible God turned his back on them. Does God turn his back on totally depraved sinners? 
Regardless Paul continues;
Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

Does this mean we are equal to the heterosexuals practicing gay sex? You can't judge someone's sin without judging the person. The sinner it the sin. 
So what may I ask, makes us different? What prevents us from condemning ourselves?

So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?

How or why are we doing these same things? What proof do we have that we aren't? Why did Paul even switch to this "judging" lesson? Was Romans 1:21-32 presented to set us up?


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## PulaskiHunter (Jun 27, 2015)

ryanh487 said:


> While I do not support gay marriage, and am morally opposed to homosexuality and view it as a sinful lifestyle choice, I do believe it is important to remember the following:
> 
> It is not the church's job to convict the lost of sin.
> It is not the church's job to convert the confused.
> ...



I agree with your statements, but I would add that as a church member and follower of Christ, I am to hold my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ accountable, as I expect them to hold me accountable. I believe in what the scriptures say from Genesis through Revelation and what touches a nerve with me is people who claim to be christians and do attend church, openly support sinful activity. Whether it be homosexuality, excess alcohol, or multiple trips to the buffet.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 27, 2015)

*Interesting article*



> For another, LGBT activists and their fellow travelers really will be coming after social conservatives. The Supreme Court has now, in constitutional doctrine, said that homosexuality is equivalent to race. The next goal of activists will be a long-term campaign to remove tax-exempt status from dissenting religious institutions. The more immediate goal will be the shunning and persecution of dissenters within civil society. After today, all religious conservatives are Brendan Eich, the former CEO of Mozilla who was chased out of that company for supporting California’s Proposition 8....
> 
> ... orthodox Christians must understand that things are going to get much more difficult for us. We are going to have to learn how to live as exiles in our own country. We are going to have to learn how to live with at least a mild form of persecution. And we are going to have to change the way we practice our faith and teach it to our children, to build resilient communities.
> 
> It is time for what I call the Benedict Option. In his 1982 book After Virtue, the eminent philosopher Alasdair MacIntyre likened the current age to the fall of ancient Rome. He pointed to Benedict of Nursia, a pious young Christian who left the chaos of Rome to go to the woods to pray, as an example for us. We who want to live by the traditional virtues, MacIntyre said, have to pioneer new ways of doing so in community. We await, he said “a new — and doubtless very different — St. Benedict.”



http://time.com/3938050/orthodox-christians-must-now-learn-to-live-as-exiles-in-our-own-country/


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## stringmusic (Jun 28, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Again, how does Romans 2:1 apply to us in relation to how we apply it with the preceding verses?
> 
> You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
> 
> ...


I know you've come up with this, what I consider adding to scripture, explaination for homosexuality. I can't figure out why though. Why do you want homosexuality to not be a sin?

What you're saying, to me, is akin to making the claim that God was only talking to non-murderers when the bible claims that it's wrong, but if you're a murderer, it's ok to keep doing it.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2015)

stringmusic said:


> I know you've come up with this, what I consider adding to scripture, explaination for homosexuality. I can't figure out why though. Why do you want homosexuality to not be a sin?
> 
> What you're saying, to me, is akin to making the claim that God was only talking to non-murderers when the bible claims that it's wrong, but if you're a murderer, it's ok to keep doing it.



When I read Romans 1:21-31, I see Christians who exchanged their worship of God for idols made in the form of animals. I see people who became so evil they exchanged a lot of things. 
God finally gave them over to a depraved mind. This means that at some point they were no longer depraved. After they "exchanged" their worship of God and sexual preferences, God gave them over to woller in it.
At that point they really became evil doing all sorts of evilness. Terrible, mean, evil people all brought on because they abandon their worship of God for idols. Prideful selfish people.

Now regardless of who that depraved group was or how they got depraved, my main question I'm seeking today is how does this relate to Romans2:1?

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> http://time.com/3938050/orthodox-christians-must-now-learn-to-live-as-exiles-in-our-own-country/



If homosexuality is equivalent to race, then it might become a category for them receiving special government grants and programs. It's a shame we didn't force our government to stay out of the anti-discrimination issue way back with blacks and females. These things should never be forced by government. Homosexual marriage should have been left for states rights.
It actually should not be governmental when it comes to the Church.

In regards to the Church, why do we still have predominately Black Churches and White Freemasonry? Why don't Jews go to Christian Churches? Why do we still have Black funeral homes and Black barber shops?

Can't Churches, that want to keep them out, show the judges their Bibles as proof that homosexuals aren't allowed in their services? Where are all of the Christian judges? Where are all of the Christian leaders? How did we let all of these non-Christian leaders take over our Christian country?
When will it be time to abandon our homes because of religious persecution and move to a new land?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2015)

Somewhat related to homosexuality in Romans, what did Paul mean in his letter to the Corinthians when he said:

9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 
10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

How does this "washing" work?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 28, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Somewhat related to homosexuality in Romans, what did Paul mean in his letter to the Corinthians when he said:
> 
> 9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
> 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
> ...


 
I don't know what God does to us when He regenerates us. I like to think of it as a person reaching a point in their life that they reach out to a God that has always been in the midst and come into covenant, or contract with Him. God then enters this persons body for an indwelling, and the person is changed from the inside out. 
 Therefore a homosexual sin will be revealed to themself as discusting and vile against God and they will be washed of that sin...other sins too.
 I believe a change is made in all that come to the Lord, if no change is made..I must assume they did not come to the Lord and were not washed, but they are the only ones that truly know because the new covenant is a one on one contract with the Lord.


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## welderguy (Jun 28, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Now regardless of who that depraved group was or how they got depraved, my main question I'm seeking today is how does this relate to Romans2:1?
> 
> You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.



I think the key to the whole judging thing is put in a nutshell in Matt. 7.

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

If we judge others and say they should repent,without first considering ourselves,how sinful we are and in need of repentance,we will not have love in our hearts for them,and will bring judgement upon ourselves.

We all need to repent.After you repent,you are able to lovingly help someone else to repent.


But,an important thing to keep in mind is this: God judges those outside the church.We are called to judge those in the church,in the proper way,described above.
1 Cor.5 tells us this:

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 28, 2015)

From Justice Alito:




> CNSNews.com - In his dissent from the Supreme Court’s 5-4 decision in Obergefell v. Hodges, which declared that same-sex marriage is a right, Justice Samuel Alito said the court had falsely likened opposition to same-sex marriage to racism and that its decision “will be used to vilify Americans unwilling to assent to the new orthodoxy.”
> 
> Alito warned that in the wake of the court’s ruling, Americans who dare to publicly express views in favor the traditional understanding that marriage is between a man and a woman will risk recrimination.
> 
> “I assume that those who cling to old beliefs will be able to whisper their thoughts in the recesses of their homes, but if they repeat those views in public, they will risk being labeled as bigots and treated as such by governments, employers, and schools,” Alito wrote.



http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...s-traditional-marriage-now-risk-being-treated


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 29, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I don't know what God does to us when He regenerates us. I like to think of it as a person reaching a point in their life that they reach out to a God that has always been in the midst and come into covenant, or contract with Him. God then enters this persons body for an indwelling, and the person is changed from the inside out.
> Therefore a homosexual sin will be revealed to themself as discusting and vile against God and they will be washed of that sin...other sins too.
> I believe a change is made in all that come to the Lord, if no change is made..I must assume they did not come to the Lord and were not washed, but they are the only ones that truly know because the new covenant is a one on one contract with the Lord.



Whose responsibility is this regeneration? If total regeneration takes some individuals a lifetime, how does this individual truly know they are washed? 

Welderguy uses the parable of the seeds landing in the thorns, sand, etc. as our various phases of regeneration as God regenerates us all differently at his will. God is controlling the phases of regeneration.
If the individual hasn't been shown all of his sins then do we assume he is in an early phase of his regeneration? Then again some people such as the drunkard struggle their whole life repenting. 
I always thought this washing was a one time deal. I thought the blood of Jesus was this powerful. I thought the Holy Spirit was this powerful. So in a sense, an individual's sin is stronger the Blood of Jesus. Proof of no fruit would indicate this.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 29, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I think the key to the whole judging thing is put in a nutshell in Matt. 7.
> 
> 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
> 
> ...



Do you believe Romans 2:1 as related to the previous verses is in relation to judging outside the Church?

Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 29, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Whose responsibility is this regeneration? If total regeneration takes some individuals a lifetime, how does this individual truly know they are washed?
> 
> Welderguy uses the parable of the seeds landing in the thorns, sand, etc. as our various phases of regeneration as God regenerates us all differently at his will. God is controlling the phases of regeneration.
> If the individual hasn't been shown all of his sins then do we assume he is in an early phase of his regeneration? Then again some people such as the drunkard struggle their whole life repenting.
> I always thought this washing was a one time deal. I thought the blood of Jesus was this powerful. I thought the Holy Spirit was this powerful. So in a sense, an individual's sin is stronger the Blood of Jesus. Proof of no fruit would indicate this.




 I agree with you it's a one time deal.


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## welderguy (Jun 29, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Whose responsibility is this regeneration? If total regeneration takes some individuals a lifetime, how does this individual truly know they are washed?
> 
> Welderguy uses the parable of the seeds landing in the thorns, sand, etc. as our various phases of regeneration as God regenerates us all differently at his will. God is controlling the phases of regeneration.
> If the individual hasn't been shown all of his sins then do we assume he is in an early phase of his regeneration? Then again some people such as the drunkard struggle their whole life repenting.
> I always thought this washing was a one time deal. I thought the blood of Jesus was this powerful. I thought the Holy Spirit was this powerful. So in a sense, an individual's sin is stronger the Blood of Jesus. Proof of no fruit would indicate this.



The Holy Spirit does the regenerating.(Titus3:5)
It doesn't have phases, it happens rather suddenly actually. 

And BTW, there is no sin that is stronger than Jesus' blood.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 29, 2015)

welderguy said:


> The Holy Spirit does the regenerating.(Titus3:5)
> It doesn't have phases, it happens rather suddenly actually.
> 
> And BTW, there is no sin that is stronger than Jesus' blood.



Were the people represented by the thorns and sand elected individuals not yet regenerated?
They were elected future Christians if you will.

After this sudden regeneration, if a person doesn't produce fruit, then it's safe to say as Hobbs suggest that God hasn't elected and regenerated this person?

Now who was Paul addressing in Romans 2:1 in regards to judging? If we can only judge Christians, how do we know who has been regenerated? How can we determine who has regenerated? 
If in Romans 2:1 Paul is telling us not to judge Christians then isn't it safe to say the group in Romans 1:21-32 were Christian? He was saying that if we judge this group we are equally as guilty. Paul did a lot of judging so therefore everyone Paul judged was a Christian.
Unless Paul was judging Church members to include the Tares and Wheat and not necessarily just the regenerated elect.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 29, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I agree with you it's a one time deal.



Salvation or regeneration? Why did Paul say "and such were some of you but you were washed, you were sanctified?"
Was it because the individuals addressed had repented from sin or because they were saved by the blood of Jesus? 

What is my proof of salvation, the washing in the blood or proof of my regeneration? Let's leave the sinners that struggle with physical sins such as fornication and drunkardness. Those aren't the struggles of the flesh that most of us struggle with. Let's stick with cheating, lust, lying, anger, and jealously. If I still do these things then would you say that I haven't regenerated? Is regeneration a one time deal?
Again where is my proof of salvation if I still sin and haven't repented? Wouldn't this prove that I haven't regenerated? Wouldn't this prove that God hasn't elected me?

Back to the drunkard or fornicator. Back to the gambler that struggles daily with the flesh. Where is his proof of salvation by proof of regeneration? If the Holy Spirit doesn't have the power to regenerate then it could only mean that person isn't elected. Otherwise it would be safe to say there is no power in the Blood of Jesus. We know there is power in the Blood and God's Spirit so therefore if a person doesn't "regenerate" it has to be proof that they aren't Elected. We have to know this because our salvation isn't based on works or anything that we do. Every new regeneration is an act of the Holy Spirit so therefore no fruit, no salvation.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 29, 2015)

Romans 2:1-3
1Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?…

Is Paul telling us to judge Christians or non-Christians in these verses? If we aren't to judge non-Christians and Paul is saying we should judge our fellow brothers and sister within the Church then these verses are confusing me.

I don't want to pass judgment and end up with no excuse.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 29, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Salvation or regeneration? Why did Paul say "and such were some of you but you were washed, you were sanctified?"
> Was it because the individuals addressed had repented from sin or because they were saved by the blood of Jesus?
> 
> What is my proof of salvation, the washing in the blood or proof of my regeneration? Let's leave the sinners that struggle with physical sins such as fornication and drunkardness. Those aren't the struggles of the flesh that most of us struggle with. Let's stick with cheating, lust, lying, anger, and jealously. If I still do these things then would you say that I haven't regenerated? Is regeneration a one time deal?
> ...



AD, that's ten questions in one post.  That's impressive even by your standards.


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## 1988USMC (Jun 29, 2015)

Healthy discussion. That's what I like to see!

I love the person, I just can't condone or understand the behavior.

I just have to remember that we all are valuable in the eyes of God, and treat others as such.

We have to shine the light of Jesus Christ into a lost world.
I believe that is called being a witness for the transforming power of a relationship with Jesus.

"Judge not lest you be judged." Only you and the Lord know what is truly in your heart.

Semper Fi!
Hope I didn't offend any ones sensibilities!


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 29, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> AD, that's ten questions in one post.  That's impressive even by your standards.



The more I know, the more I don't know.
On one hand the power of the blood of Jesus washes away all of our sins.
On the other hand this only works if the power of the Holy Spirit regenerates as proof that God has chosen or elected to use his power to regenerate us.

Romans 1:21-32 must be continued on to Romans 2:1-3 for us to get Paul's full lesson on judging. 
Now if we can just figure out what Paul was teaching in Romans 2:1-3 we can better understand Romans 1:21-32.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 29, 2015)

1988USMC said:


> Healthy discussion. That's what I like to see!
> 
> I love the person, I just can't condone or understand the behavior.
> 
> ...



I would like to add that if we are going to use Romans 1:21-32 to condemn, then we must also use Romans 2:1-3 to condemn.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 29, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> AD, that's ten questions in one post. That's impressive even by your standards.


 
 I never expected that many questions by stating that I agreed with him...maybe that was a mistake.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 29, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Salvation or regeneration? Why did Paul say "and such were some of you but you were washed, you were sanctified?"
> Was it because the individuals addressed had repented from sin or because they were saved by the blood of Jesus?
> 
> What is my proof of salvation, the washing in the blood or proof of my regeneration? Let's leave the sinners that struggle with physical sins such as fornication and drunkardness. Those aren't the struggles of the flesh that most of us struggle with. Let's stick with cheating, lust, lying, anger, and jealously. If I still do these things then would you say that I haven't regenerated? Is regeneration a one time deal?
> ...


 
 Art,  All I know is some scripture and personal experience, I guess that's what we are all led by isn't it, experience with a living and active Lord?

 When I was lost, I felt lonesome and like something big was missing in my life. When I was saved on a certain night in august of 1984, I actually felt the presence of God for the first time. He has never left me. Sure I go astray at times in my life, but He is always there. This is one reason I am a ISAS (If Saved Always Saved)believer , because I have tested the limits of our Lord and if anyone deserves to lose it, I do. 

 What I found was God would only take so much and then beat me back into line, so to speak. The last beating I got was between 2003 and 2004. I can't imagine ever getting that far away again. The Lord is on my mind every day, and all I want to do is satisfy Him. If you don't know the Lord this way, then check up. Prayerfully ask Him to come into your heart, if you do, then don't worry so much about the rules, or the written word about salvation and regeneration, and sin...just enjoy your relationship with Him, for there is no sin that He cannot cover, and there is no sin without disobedience...In other words just do what the Lord that is active in your life tells you to do, and you will be ok...IMO!


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 29, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Art,  All I know is some scripture and personal experience, I guess that's what we are all led by isn't it, experience with a living and active Lord?
> 
> When I was lost, I felt lonesome and like something big was missing in my life. When I was saved on a certain night in august of 1984, I actually felt the presence of God for the first time. He has never left me. Sure I go astray at times in my life, but He is always there. This is one reason I am a ISAS (If Saved Always Saved)believer , because I have tested the limits of our Lord and if anyone deserves to lose it, I do.
> 
> What I found was God would only take so much and then beat me back into line, so to speak. The last beating I got was between 2003 and 2004. I can't imagine ever getting that far away again. The Lord is on my mind every day, and all I want to do is satisfy Him. If you don't know the Lord this way, then check up. Prayerfully ask Him to come into your heart, if you do, then don't worry so much about the rules, or the written word about salvation and regeneration, and sin...just enjoy your relationship with Him, for there is no sin that He cannot cover, and there is no sin without disobedience...In other words just do what the Lord that is active in your life tells you to do, and you will be ok...IMO!



I agree with your testimony. I too have reached the boundaries only to be reeled back in. I still struggle with sin. 
Earlier you said "I believe a change is made in all that come to the Lord, if no change is made..I must assume they did not come to the Lord and were not washed, but they are the only ones that truly know because the new covenant is a one on one contract with the Lord."
True you said you don't really know but you do feel like a saved person must show Fruit of the Spirit as proof of salvation. You can assume they weren't washed.
What if someone observed me or you during one of our times we were at the outer boundaries of God's way of life? 
How or what does Romans 2:1-3 teach us about looking at someone and not really knowing where that person is in their sanctification or regeneration process? They too might be waiting on God to reel them back to where he wants them.
What proof does Romans 2:1-3 give me that let's me know I'm different from the heterosexuals who exchanged hetero sex for homosexual sex in Romans 1:21-23?
How can my salvation or lack there of be compared to some group who abandoned God for idols made in the image of animals? Who exchanged or changed their sexual preference after their worship exchange or change?

Who was this group that did these exchanges or changes?
You say not to worry so much about the rules and this story but it's constantly used to deny salvation. 
Why is Romans 2:1-3 never added to deny salvation?
How can you say the Blood is powerful yet hint that it didn't work in people  who don't regenerate and change?

If people don't regenerate and change then doesn't it mean that God didn't use his Holy Spirit to regenerate?
Doesn't this mean that they weren't elected for regeneration?
People are quick to say the Blood of Jesus is powerful and they feel this power in themselves yet they deny it to others based on no proof of the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
They use the "they haven't repented" as an excuse of why they haven't regenerated yet they themselves still struggle with sin. They themselves haven't repented from sin.

What will keep some one from the Kingdom of God? What sin list will do this? Who will be denied? What is the difference if it's not the "washing?" Either it works for all or it doesn't work for me. This is why it's an important issue. 
If the washing doesn't cover all sin then I'm equally as guilty. I still sin. I haven't fully regenerated if in fact I'm in and out of cycles as it is related to how I should follow God. If in fact I have strayed from time to time almost leaving the Kingdom. If in fact I still lust and show anger of my sister & brother. If in fact Romans 2:1-3 tells me if I judge I'm the same as them, then yes it make me worry.
If there is no difference between me and the homosexual then my only hope is the washing. To me this washing has to be the most powerful thing in the whole world. It can't be from anything I do. It can't be dependent on me.
I am weak and he is strong. He has to have the power to remove the yoke of sin. I can't live with this burden.
His washing has to remove the burden of sin. This burden has to be lifted by all who ask. It has to be this way or it's not Christianity. Believe my I know as I've tried to work my way to Heaven most of my life and it hasn't worked. I'm too weak to do it. 
I have now placed my trust in Jesus that his blood did what his Father said it would do. Please don't tell me that if his Spirit isn't producing the fruit someone else is looking for that my washing didn't take hold. That God didn't elect you as you once thought. That if you haven't repented and you judge others as in Romans 2:1-3, that I'm equally as guilty as the heterosexuals in Romans 1.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 30, 2015)

Art, I think the only way sin will kill you is to go in front of the judge without a mediator. You will get the death penalty for sure then, but to obtain the mediator...to enter into the kingdom of heaven, who will not enter?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 30, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, I think the only way sin will kill you is to go in front of the judge without a mediator. You will get the death penalty for sure then, but to obtain the mediator...to enter into the kingdom of heaven, who will not enter?



I agree but I'm not sure even the Mediator could help the group in Romans 1. Maybe not even the individuals judging in Romans 2.


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