# Need advice concerning training bird dogs for wild quail



## JessB90 (Jun 21, 2012)

Well, since the season isn't going to take place for a while, I'll go ahead and ask while I'm thinking about it.  The only birds I've hunted my dog on are pen-raised quail.  I hope to be able to hunt at least a few wild quail at some point in my life, and I was wondering for any tips that would help me prepare my dog for wild quail.  The birds I've worked him with so far seem to fly alright, and he stays on point even with running birds, so he's pretty steady.


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## TailCrackin (Jun 21, 2012)

Experience.

The only way he is going to learn how to find wild birds is for you to take him out and hunt wild birds.  Be prepared to come in dog tired from walking many miles in thick country without any finds but don't get discouraged.  

I think too many people go out a time or two and go birdless....get frustrated...and go back to the shake and bake pen raised hunts.  If you put your dog down in quail country eventually he will either point or bust a covey and he will learn.  


And you'll never forget that first wild covey find....sweeter than a whole flight pen of shake and bake points.


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## Jetjockey (Jun 21, 2012)

I kinda think the wild bird vs pen raised bird discussion is a little misleading.  There both birds.  The difference is how they react, and even then sometimes there isn't much of a difference.  Wild birds tend to be more "jumpy" then pen raised birds, but not always.  They will usually flush much quicker when they are crowded and they tend to run more, but other then that, they all smell the same to a dog.  The big thing is for the dog to learn not to crowd the birds.  The only way a dog can really learn that is to be put on wild birds, and then, just don't shoot the birds your dog crowds and flushes.  It won't take much time and the dog will figure it out.....   Also, when you hunt or train on released birds, try and make it as real as possible.  Don't dizzy the birds if your dog is already holding point.  Dizzied birds are unrealistic because you literally have to kick them to get them to fly, and then they might not fly very far.   Get good birds that fly well and there isn't a ton of difference between wild birds and pen raised birds.   The guys in Ranburn AL had awesome birds when I used to buy birds.


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## Jim P (Jun 21, 2012)

Good advice from both.


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## Nitram4891 (Jun 21, 2012)

Jetjockey said:


> I kinda think the wild bird vs pen raised bird discussion is a little misleading.  There both birds.  The difference is how they react, and even then sometimes there isn't much of a difference.  Wild birds tend to be more "jumpy" then pen raised birds, but not always.  They will usually flush much quicker when they are crowded and they tend to run more, but other then that, they all smell the same to a dog.  The big thing is for the dog to learn not to crowd the birds.  The only way a dog can really learn that is to be put on wild birds, and then, just don't shoot the birds your dog crowds and flushes.  It won't take much time and the dog will figure it out.....   Also, when you hunt or train on released birds, try and make it as real as possible.  Don't dizzy the birds if your dog is already holding point.  Dizzied birds are unrealistic because you literally have to kick them to get them to fly, and then they might not fly very far.   Get good birds that fly well and there isn't a ton of difference between wild birds and pen raised birds.   The guys in Ranburn AL had awesome birds when I used to buy birds.



There is also the difference that your dog may not be used to hunting an hour or three without smelling anything.  Dogs can get bored if they are used to finding birds 5 minutes after getting turned loose and every five minutes after that.  A wild bird dog has to have a lot of drive if the birds are few and far between.


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## Jim P (Jun 21, 2012)

Good point.


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## gsppurist (Jun 21, 2012)

I would agree to most of the points above.  I would recommend going on a trip where you would find lots of wild birds...and that isn't Georgia.  Work your dog there.  A dog that can track well will get you on birds more often then a dog that just runs.  It is amazing to watch a dog progress this way.

The best and worst feeling is when you have been working your dog for hours with very little action and he locks into a point.  It is a lone bush with very little surrounding ground cover which you can see all around.  You look as you approach and start calling the dog names for pointing at a bush with no birds.  You are certain you see nothing.   As you become quite annoyed  and rush up on your dog, several quail jump from the base of that bush that you swore you could see nothing.   

"Point" being, always trust your dog.


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## coveyrise90 (Jun 21, 2012)

If you have a place where you can establish early release coveys thats a good way to prepare your dog. My youngest pup has seen nothing but wild and early release quail. Because of this I am able to take a very "hands off" approach to training and am letting him develop naturally..... I sure dont have to worry about him catching birds.


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## Coach K (Jun 22, 2012)

coveyrise90 said:


> If you have a place where you can establish early release coveys thats a good way to prepare your dog. My youngest pup has seen nothing but wild and early release quail. Because of this I am able to take a very "hands off" approach to training and am letting him develop naturally..... I sure dont have to worry about him catching birds.



That is very gratifying to hear Adam.  That's how I have been doing my dogs since '95.  So much more fun for handler/trainer, not to mention the dog.  The one thing I'll add since you don't want to be pressuring wild/early release birds too much is the use of a remote launcher.  I'll have a launcher set out in a "birdy" location & just let the dog run.  The launcher is marked so I know exactly where it is.  I'll keep tossing blades of grass in the air to know the direction of the breeze.  When I see the dog first make scent I'll watch what he does.  If you want your dog to have more success holding any wild bird, the dog can't approach the launcher any further or the bird is released and the dog is called back in & set on point where he should have stopped as soon as making scent.  Once your dog starts pointing that launcher at first scent & letting you flush the bird, then go ahead and shoot the birds that he has performed correctly on.  If you keep doing it this way, you will have a dog very sensitive to not crowding the game & one that knows that you are supposed to flush the game.  This, of course, is only the best simulation that you can give, because it does not do anything for all the antics wild birds can play on a bird dog, like running away from points & flushing wild because of noise, wind, etc.  

The overall answer here is that the dogs learn to handle each type of wild game differently.  It primarily comes down to experience!  Lastly, make no mistake, a bird dog will be able to smell the difference between a pen raised bird (not handled), a pen raised bird (handled) and a wild bird, not to mention the different smells from each species.  I once read that a dog smells like we see.  Imagine you have the recollection of what your favorite covert to hunt looks like.  (For me, my "Beaver Dam" covert in Michigan)  I distinctly know what that place looks like, the road leading up to it, the little red cottage on private land across the road, the dead end road that goes over the beaver stream, the aspen that are more mature, etc.  A dog has that same picture in his head but as smells.  That's why I poo-poo a lot of this talk about bird dogs that have good noses.  Dogs can smell so fantastically good that they can smell that bird.  Dogs that are given the rap for "bad noses" may just have something else on their mind or they may be distracted by a different scent that another dog does not have any use for, etc., etc.  

That's my two cents.  And it comes with the disclaimer that I am not a professional trainer, but someone that likes to wild bird hunt just a tad with the company of my four legged partners.  & I am always trying to learn more!


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## Setter Jax (Jun 22, 2012)

Coach K said:


> (For me, my "Beaver Dam" covert in Michigan)  I distinctly know what that place looks like, the road leading up to it, the little red cottage on private land across the road, the dead end road that goes over the beaver stream, the aspen that are more mature, etc.



Coach, I'm trying to relate to your comparison.  Maybe if you provided me with an address I would have a better understanding of what you are trying to describe.

SJ

:
cheers:


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## waddler (Jun 22, 2012)

In my experience there are three types of birddogs based on how, where and what they hunt. First dogs that hunt shooting preserves are subjected to the same areas that have new birds released almost daily in many instances. Given the quality of their sense of smell, these dogs must sense a low level permeation of scent from the field itself. They learn to point when the scent is at a high level, meaning they get closer to the birds. This is important because of MONEY and TIME. The job of the dog handler on a Shooting Preserve is to get 'er done. That means trying to hunt a predetermined pattern that discourages other planted birds from flushing prematurely. So these dogs are directed to search for high scent above the scent of the field.

Another type is the working dog on wild birds, whose main job is not to bust birds, even if it means pointing and relocating several times. They do not have to worry about scent pollution, so when they get a whiff, it means birds are there or were there. In my experience, they have a tendency to point further from the birds.

The third dog is everybody's personal dog and he should be completely screwed up from changing field conditions when he goes from planted birds at a refuge to wild birds. And they usually are. I do not see how these dogs can successfully operate except thru love and understanding forgiving the inevitable mistakes.

If you take your release and shoot companion to a wild bird hunt, cut him some slack,   No, cut him a lot of slack, it is not going to be easy for him.


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## Jim P (Jun 22, 2012)

Waddler I never thought of it that way, but what you have just said makes a bunch of sence and the more I think of it you are right on the button.


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## Coach K (Jun 22, 2012)

Setter Jax said:


> Coach, I'm trying to relate to your comparison.  Maybe if you provided me with an address I would have a better understanding of what you are trying to describe.
> 
> SJ
> 
> ...




Here's the address:

2100 Woodward Avenue, Detroit, MI 48201


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## zzweims (Jun 24, 2012)

waddler said:


> If you take your release and shoot companion to a wild bird hunt, cut him some slack,   No, cut him a lot of slack, it is not going to be easy for him.



So true.  Even if you are lucky enough to get this dog on a ton of wild birds, odds are that for the first few days he'll crowd, creep, bump, and be totally thrown by the runners.  Cut him some slack, enjoy his company, and appreciate how he gradually learns to handle these wild birds.

Aline


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## JoshT (Jun 24, 2012)

You might want to consider getting a Bird Launcher or several of them, some have remote controls. It is pretty basic really, you do the set up, distribute 1 or 2 (or more) in the field, with pen raised quail. Then when the dog goes on point you cut them loose, shoot 1 time, get the retrieve. Repeat process until you get any kinks out. 

http://www.trophytimegundogs.com/store/DT_Systems/bird_launchers


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## JuliaH (Jul 1, 2012)

The first time out your dog will be very surprised that the birds won't stay put for him to point from a foot away. Once he figures that out, he should do great!  

When mine went out west the first time they experienced wild prairie chickens and it did not take long before they pointed from some distance away from the birds cuz the birds just are not gonna stay there for a close up point. They still do that as the lesson was well learned!




JessB90 said:


> Well, since the season isn't going to take place for a while, I'll go ahead and ask while I'm thinking about it.  The only birds I've hunted my dog on are pen-raised quail.  I hope to be able to hunt at least a few wild quail at some point in my life, and I was wondering for any tips that would help me prepare my dog for wild quail.  The birds I've worked him with so far seem to fly alright, and he stays on point even with running birds, so he's pretty steady.


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