# Force Fetch/Hold w/ E-Collar



## limbhanger (Feb 4, 2011)

Anyone have experience with e-collar force fetching?


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## DUhollywood1 (Feb 4, 2011)

Gatorb said:


> havent heard of that to start with . you  start with an ear pinch or toe pinch to force fetch. after a dog is FF'd you collar condition him and then you can use the collar when forcing to pile, forcing to water, and what not.



Exactly. You never teach with the e collar, you reinforce known commands with it.


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## hen killer (Feb 4, 2011)

listen to them fellas, they know what they are talking about


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## limbhanger (Feb 4, 2011)

I need to clarify my original post. I am starting her off with the hold command first. When I am comfortable with her holding, then move to the force fetch. If anyone has advice with this please give me some direction. She has been on the e-collar for a year and is a great dog that obeys and loves to retreive. It is my fault that she hasn't been force fetched yet, but now I want to get serious with her training.


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## Hairy Dawg (Feb 4, 2011)

The pressure for force fetch isn't given through the collar. Like Gator said, you need the force to come from the ear pinch, or if you like, the toe hitch. You are right about having your hold solid before progressing to fetch. 

This can be a very stressful process for the dog to go through. You owe it to the dog to completely understand the process before attempting it. A solid program that gives step by step guidance is the best way for you to understand the process. The one listed above is one of the best to learn from.

Good luck.


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## Scottyhardison (Feb 4, 2011)

Teaching her hold first is fine IMO lot less to worry about while ff ie cleaning up mouth habits and makes it easier to ff off a bucket & & ground instead of table. Just ff with ear pinch up to force to pile before force to pile start over collar conditioning the dog to fetch. Then start force to pile useing e-collar the transition fetch comand to "back" while in route to pile. This will help prevent popping (stoping without whistle) during T-work 
That's my 2 cents


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## clent586 (Feb 6, 2011)

Great advice above. Do yourself a favor, get a program and use it. It does not pay off switching from idea to idea. Everyone giving advise means well but you can't switch from program to program. It is about slow progression through the appropriate steps, building on each other. There are alot of programs out there. I am a victim of what you are fixing to do and I had to start over just about from scratch. I am through FF, FTP, almost through 3-Handed Casting and working towards Mini-T at this time. It can be boring at times, but you have to stick with it and make everything clear and easy for the pup. Confidence and success for the pup is paramount at this phase of the game. There again, my $.02. And thanks to all who have helped me!


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## Richie27 (Feb 6, 2011)

I disagree with previous posts stating that you need to teach HOLD while FF'ing.  Teaching hold is a prerequisite to FF.  
I'd recommend starting off with a leather glove and teaching your dog to get used to that...before moving on to other objects (keep in mind that NO pressure should be used during hold).  Remember, we're working towards teaching the dog how to respond to pressure.  
Once you feel the dog is comfortable with hold try backing up and do circles around the dog.  When the dog drops the object...no big deal.  At that point the dog is telling you to slow down because he/she isn't at that point yet.
Once this is ironed out, you need to do HOLD while walking.  For the dog this is like chewing bubble gum and walking at the same time.  So take it nice and slow.  I'd also recommend doing some remote sits throughout this process.  
Once you have a nice firm center hold and the dog can walk / sit while holding the object then you're ready to move on to FF.

Remember...
teach 80%
train 15 %
and
test 5 % of the time.

hope this helps.


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## DUhollywood1 (Feb 6, 2011)

Richie27 said:


> I disagree with previous posts stating that you need to teach HOLD while FF'ing.  Teaching hold is a prerequisite to FF.
> I'd recommend starting off with a leather glove and teaching your dog to get used to that...before moving on to other objects (keep in mind that NO pressure should be used during hold).  Remember, we're working towards teaching the dog how to respond to pressure.
> Once you feel the dog is comfortable with hold try backing up and do circles around the dog.  When the dog drops the object...no big deal.  At that point the dog is telling you to slow down because he/she isn't at that point yet.
> Once this is ironed out, you need to do HOLD while walking.  For the dog this is like chewing bubble gum and walking at the same time.  So take it nice and slow.  I'd also recommend doing some remote sits throughout this process.
> ...



sounds like you have took bits in pieces of about 100 programs and have made your own...


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## Richie27 (Feb 6, 2011)

you're exactly right.  I did a lot of research and took bits and pieces from different programs to make a hybrid for lack of better term. 
I don't see a problem with it as long as you find / make a program and stick with it.
More importantly, if you can't read your dog then the best program in the world is worthless...what do the ears do when you make a correction?  What is the tail position?  Look at the dogs eyes...all this is part of reading the dog and is the most important part in training.

remember...less is more and will pay dividends in the long run.


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## king killer delete (Feb 20, 2011)

*Force breaking*

Go slow , Rome wasnt built in a day. Going to fast and to hard can give you bad results on the other end. Bird dog trainers use the the toe pull method and retriever trainers use the ear pinch to start. First you must teach the dog to hold. Then you start with the ear pinch. My first question to you is how old is your dog? I hope he has long shed his milk teeth. After your dog will hold a bumper with out dropping it ,you can start your force fetch program. keep  each training period short and when your are finished throw a bunch of happy bumpers. This training is tuff and it should end on a good note each time you finish. After the dog has completed your force fetch program then you move to the collar. After you have him forced with the collar at your feet you can move away from your bumper a few feet at a time and the you can start to send him to that bumper. Keep the bumper in the same place each time you send him . Reinforce by bumping with the collar as he goes to the bumper. After he has that down ,you place a pile of bumpers at the same place and put a white 5 gallon bucket behind the pile continue this drill until he can do it with his eyes closed.  Continue to use your collar to bump him to the pile. Dont do it every time he goes .You should be back from your pile about 50 yards. This is now first base. Now place a pile 180 degrees in the other direction with  another white 5 gallon bucket behind the pile.Now run him to that pile until he can do that with his eyes closed, this is now third base.  Now go to second base and do the same.  Do not let him switch piles . Now you can move him around and start working him on each pile switching it up as you go. Make sure you use the comand back when you send him to these piles . Use his name on marks that he can see. The back comand should carry the about the same  weight as the fetch comand.  Now you can do overs. By changing your postion placeing yourself between the pile and the dog and throwing a bumper to the pile you want him to go to. And moving your hand and arm  in the direction of the pile and saying over, he will now where your are sending him.  Now you can slowly move back to the pitchers mound. Good luck . Dont get mad just teach.


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## Meat Dog Mafia (Feb 21, 2011)

I teach ff with these progressions.
Hold on table with 2in PVC pipe with t's on end. Deliever to hand.
Walking the table holding the PVC. 
Hold on the ground. 
Walking at heal on lead.
Sit and here with PVC in it's mouth. Bring dog to heel and teach to deliever to hand at heel. If you run into problems go back a step until dogs gets the concept. When hold is complete in all aspects, table, lead and ground. Move to fetch.
Back to table ear pinch and command fetch.
Fetch and walk the table with bumper. Start putting bumper closer to table with fetch command. "Fetch command always with ear pinch. Get the dog fetching with ear pinch on table and walking to the end of table. Now ear pinch Fetch command with bumper at end of the table. Once dog is walking to the end of table picking the bumper or what ever you use and returning and delievering to hand. Do the same thing begining from fetch on the ground. Remember to continue to enforce a clean hold. Once dog is fetching on the ground with command fetch not dropping  it,  time to move to walking fetch. Put bumpers in line 10yds apart walk at heel and command every other bumper to fetch. When this step is finished you are ready for pile work. Put three or four bumper in a pile 10yds infront of you and start lining to pile. Upon sucess move pile back to distance you desire for me it is about 150 to 200yds. 
This is how I have done it for years and many dogs, but remember FF all about control and pressure and reading the dog that takes many years and many dogs to obtain. Good luck and if you run into a snag ask for help dont continue on a bad habbit it just shows up in the end. Good luck!


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## king killer delete (Feb 22, 2011)

*Escalon Driil*

Any body now what it is and who came up with the idea?
I do. Rex Carr. This is the the program that started it all. Force breaking not just force fetching. When its cold and you have just killed your first Canvas Back drake or your first bull sprig pintail and you try to send your dog and he looks up at you with those big loving eyes and he says not to day dad you will understand why you force break. D.L. Walters said that as a marine in WWII the Corps taught him to run towards the enemy for releif. You want your dog to run to that bird for reilef. This sounds really tuff but those guys from the past were making Field Champs.


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## cocdawg (Apr 14, 2014)

killer elite said:


> Any body now what it is and who came up with the idea?
> I do. Rex Carr. This is the the program that started it all. Force breaking not just force fetching. When its cold and you have just killed your first Canvas Back drake or your first bull sprig pintail and you try to send your dog and he looks up at you with those big loving eyes and he says not to day dad you will understand why you force break. *D.L. Walters said that as a marine in WWII the Corps taught him to run towards the enemy for relief.* You want your dog to run to that bird for reilef. This sounds really tuff but those guys from the past were making Field Champs.



I know this is a thread that's 3 years old but as a newbie, I really enjoy going back and reading older threads and trying to learn something.  The bolded text in Killer's post really stood out to me.  So, having said that, I'd like to thank all of our service men and women past, present and future.


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