# griffey jr/pujols:greatest of the last 20 years???



## CFGD (Feb 17, 2010)

ok guys...

since so many once thought of "great hitters" have been linked to steroids (bonds,mcgwire,a-rod,palmeiro,sosa), is it fair to go ahead and give griffey jr/pujols, the title of greatest of the steroid generation?since it seems they have been clean all along?i think its a tie between him a pujols???

griffey has 630 hr's.and hes had 5 seasons that were shortened by injuries.its safe to say if he would have stayed healthy he would have blown away the hr record.heres his yearly hr breakdown

1989-16
1990-22
1991-22
1992-27
1993-45
1994-40
1995-17
1996-49
1997-56
1998-56
1999-48
2000-40
2001-22
2002-8
2003-13
2004-20
2005-35
2006-27
2007-30
2008-18
2009-19

pujols has remained healthy and has been killin it! and so far seems to be clean. his numbers

2001-37
2002-34
2003-43
2004-46
2005-41
2006-49
2007-32
2008-37
2009-47


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## Hunter Blair (Feb 17, 2010)

if you rule out the links to steroid people, then yes, probably the best of the last 20 years..... one could argue that Tony Gwynn was a better pure hitter of roughly that same time period, but griffey was dropping the bombs..... A-rod will finish with much better career numbers and potentially 800 homers.... but he had a few year stint with the steroids that will tarnish his legacy....


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## CFGD (Feb 17, 2010)

yea i would call gwynn,ichiro,maybe even chipper better avg. guys but im talkin bombs away guys.if ryan howard keeps it up and remains clean, he will be up there too. in the last 4 years hes hit
58,47,48,45


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## boothy (Feb 17, 2010)

Bonds!


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## Crooked Stick (Feb 17, 2010)

Ted Williams. Period


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Feb 17, 2010)

though his brain is frozen somewhere, The Splinter hasn't been playing ball in the last 20 years.

Pujols is a special kind of player.  Nobody is on his level right now and the only person who has been close is Bonds.  Who is the last player you actually had to think about intentionally walking with the bases loaded?  Bonds?  Mantle?

Unfortunately, I'm not sold on ANY of them being totally clean, especially with the injuries Griffey started having.


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## CFGD (Feb 18, 2010)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> though his brain is frozen somewhere, The Splinter hasn't been playing ball in the last 20 years.
> 
> Pujols is a special kind of player.  Nobody is on his level right now and the only person who has been close is Bonds.  Who is the last player you actually had to think about intentionally walking with the bases loaded?  Bonds?  Mantle?
> 
> Unfortunately, I'm not sold on ANY of them being totally clean, especially with the injuries Griffey started having.



speaking of sudden and rapid fall-off...andruw jones????...
something to think about..


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## bfriendly (Feb 18, 2010)

I've been saying for a few years now..............PUJOLS is absolutely on Steroids!

  I am not going to say that people cant get bigger without them, but Look at a Rookie Photo of Pujols, McGuire and Bonds..............then look at the most recent photos.

There is a Remarkable Resemblance............Sorry, I am NOT buying Pujols being clean of Steroids.


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## bfriendly (Feb 18, 2010)

I just started to Google Pujols and the Steroid link showed up with photos...........guess I am not the only one


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## CollinsCraft77 (Feb 18, 2010)

Only bad thing is you just never know who was on them and who wasn't so it makes any argument hard.

Griffey Jr was awesome and still one of the sweetest swings from the left side you'll ever see. Perhaps, and I hope, his injuries are from him playing his wazoo off and not taking things to help recover.

Still and I might lose this argument from the purists on here but I personally could care less if they used them. I love baseball period and would have watched regardless. 

You can't give me the argument" Well it inflates their numbers " Sure it does. But my favorite player of all time, Ted Williams, and others like Ruth, Hornsby, Cobb, Wagner, They never had to face fresh pitchers, specialists, coming into the 7th thru 9th inning. The pitchers back then we expected to pitch 9, even on short rest. Do you honestly think Ruth would have hit 714 in todays game? I don't. I might be wrong but I just don't see it happening. So maybe older players number are inflated because the game was different then. Kind of like Cy youngs pitching totals. Impossible in todays game. So steroid baseball numbers, while inflated, are just another period in baseball where certain things happen. right or wrong. They do. Plus, for $100,000,000, there's not many on this forum who wouldn't take something to obtain that kind of money for their families.

I'd have an IV in the batter's box with me. Just to throw something out there and really get some people mad, I love Chipper Jones. Absolutely a fan. But I personally think he juiced up. I HOPE I'M WRONG!!! But, look at the power explosion he had before his MVP season and then during and after. Kind of about the same time one Javy Lopez started hitting bombs. Who was in the clubhouse and on the team then. And now he is injury prone. Body breaking down. It is a typical pattern seen with these drugs.

I know he's on a pedestal but there's enough there to make me suspicious. I hope I'm wrong but at least Griffey was bombing from the beginning.


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## CFGD (Feb 18, 2010)

i will give griffey a vote of confidence because he never really blew up like sosa, big mac, and bonds did.


as far as the ruth era and inflated numbers im with ya on that..i personally think records should be separated by pre and post color barrier eras . mlb pre-jackie robinson was basically an all- white, mens club.however i will say that ruth was superior to HIS competition because he was the only one posting numbers like that.


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## CFGD (Feb 18, 2010)

maybe pujols IS juiced, but i wonder why nobody has come out with the info yet?there is way too much $ in the practice of snitching not to give up the info.


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## CFGD (Feb 18, 2010)

and lets not forget about roger clemens..makes me respect what greg maddux was able to do even more.thats one guy who was probably with out a doubt clean.did he ever even throw over 90 mph?he did it with precision,with a build that resembled a banker.


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## biggdogg (Feb 18, 2010)

i'm of the belief that until someone can prove without a shadow of a doubt that pujols juiced, then he is clean. yes you can compare pics from his rookie year to now. the only real change is in his legs. and he was only 20 his rookie year. he hadn't even filled out yet. yes, jr and pujols are the greatest home run threats this generation. i also would include frank thomas in that argument.

btw, that pic of bonds. seriously, you couldn't find a less disturbing picture?


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## CFGD (Feb 18, 2010)

it IS disturbing, thats the point...haha


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Feb 19, 2010)

a lot of fair points brought up but there are counter arguments to them all.

Babe Ruth played in the dead ball era and he only played in 154 games per season.  Could he play in today's game?  Probably a little too fat, but he would still be able to hit a ton even today.  Babe might have had some trouble with left-handed specialists.  I don't know his splits against lefties and righties... don't even know if those stats exist on him.

Ted Williams missed a few years for the War.

Someone posted McGwire's rookie card.  You do know he hit 49 HR's that year...  The man could always hit for power.  The fact that he went crazy on roids is just stupid.  I don't know when he started taking them, but I'm just mystified as to why, when he was already a great player.  I think a lot of guys take them after injuries.

As for Chipper, I personally don't think he juiced.  His body never changed.  His HR numbers didn't go crazy.  In his big power years (98-01 he hit 34,45,36,38, respectively) I think that's called being in his "prime."  He was 26 in 1998, 29 in 2001.  Those are typically the most productive of a career.  He started having big time health problems at the age of 33, which is a little young.  If you look at his OPS as an overall production number, his 2007 season is 3rd best after his two monster years of 99 and 01.


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## reylamb (Feb 19, 2010)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> a lot of fair points brought up but there are counter arguments to them all.
> 
> Babe Ruth played in the dead ball era and he only played in 154 games per season.  Could he play in today's game?  Probably a little too fat, but he would still be able to hit a ton even today.  Babe might have had some trouble with left-handed specialists.  I don't know his splits against lefties and righties... don't even know if those stats exist on him.
> 
> ...



Plus, the massive caverns Babe played in vs the cracker jack parks today.  Still, the most staggering stat ever, the year Babe hit his 60 he had more HRs as an individual as any other team had that year for a team total.......someone today would have to get 225+ HRs to do that....he could play today, no doubt about it.

Ted missed a full 4 and part of a 5th flying in the Wars.  Had it not been for that, he would have all of the career #s.  Still my vote for greatest hitter ever.

Pujos vs Griffey?  Not even close in my mind, Pujols.


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## Cranium (Feb 19, 2010)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Only bad thing is you just never know who was on them and who wasn't so it makes any argument hard.
> 
> Griffey Jr was awesome and still one of the sweetest swings from the left side you'll ever see. Perhaps, and I hope, his injuries are from him playing his wazoo off and not taking things to help recover.
> 
> ...



BINGO!!!!!!
to answer the original question..Bonds & Pujols....JR's not in the same ballpark as these 2 as a hitter!!!  Ballplayer yes..but not as a hitter


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## CollinsCraft77 (Feb 19, 2010)

First to Reylamb, your post on Ruth and the huge parks is very misleading and partially incorrect.

Take a look at his home fields, Fenway from 1914 to 1919. Polo Grounds from 1920 to 1922 and Yankee stadium from 23 on.

Fenway - RF 302'   336' power alley

Polo Grounds - RF 258'   CF- 433' LF- 277'

Yankee Stadium - RF 294' ( 1923 to 1929 ) 295' ( 30 to 38 ) 296' ('39 to '76 )
                                LF- 280.5' ('23 to '27) 301' ( '28 to 76 )
                                CF- 487' ('23 to'36)461'('37 to'66)

Now CF was long in the last two stadiums but RF was short. Ruth hit 29 hr in 130 games in 1919 with Boston, his first true full season. Then in 20 he goes to the Polo Grounds and hits 59 with a 258' RF. 54 the next year and in his last season at the Polo Grounds he hit 35. He was blessed with shorter right fields than today's parks. Granted CF was longer but tell me, of all the homerun footage you have seen on him, how many times have you ever seen footage of a homerun to centerfield? I'm sure he hit some but he pulled a lot more to the short porches.

As for you Doc, I'll agree with most of your post except the size difference in regards to steroids. Look at Olympic athelete's, bicyclists and runners who have been caught. Not all of them are bulky. In fact some are very lean. also the Recovery time from workouts or injuries is just as much a part of steroids as pure muscle mass. Don't tell me you don't think javy lopez might have been on them either do you. Some power, then great power, then out of the game. As for his ops, nothing said about his batting averages or number of doubles. Just a drop in power and injuries that seem to AT THE VERY LEAST, give room to speculation of something. It does fit the pattern to an extent. I would hope not but......

Griffey in prime when healthy over Pujols because not only was his bat prodigious, but his defense saved as many runs as anybody ever. Pujols is exceptional at first but Griffey would have already blowed by Bonds if he would have stayed healthy.


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## CFGD (Feb 19, 2010)

griffey was well on his way to garnering some "best ever" talk before the injuries.and im talking best all- around player.awsome hitter,great fielder and a cannon arm.


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## CFGD (Feb 19, 2010)

and while we are on the roids subject..
what about the HOF?do bonds,mcgwire,a-rod,sosa, clemens,etc. deserve a spot?

i say no.MAYBE an enshrinement with some sort of asterisk.while its true we dont know everyone who used in the roid era,its a given that these guys did,and a couple have admitted and even tested positive.

i say if pete rose cant get in they should'nt either.yes pete lied all those years but so did these guys.would these guys ever had admitted to juicing up if they were not snitched on,outed,etc.?

would a-rod have ever came out and admitted if the other guys had never got caught?

they knew what they were doing when they were shooting up.if they thought it was ok, they would not have kept it a secret.but instead they reaped the benefits of it,at the time.especially            mc gwire and sosa,during their dual for the HR record,they were the darlings of pro sports that year.they got all the endorsements,all the magazine covers, and all the interviews.during any of those interviews,when asked by the reporter,"you're really hitting the ball out the park this season, what do you contribute to you're power explosion?"how many times did they say "well, you know ive really been hittin' the needle hard lately"...?they knew they were cheating the whole time....
why should these players be glorified and honored when they cheated the game,the competition,the fans,and themselves?


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Feb 19, 2010)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> As for you Doc, I'll agree with most of your post except the size difference in regards to steroids. Look at Olympic athelete's, bicyclists and runners who have been caught. Not all of them are bulky. In fact some are very lean. also the Recovery time from workouts or injuries is just as much a part of steroids as pure muscle mass. Don't tell me you don't think javy lopez might have been on them either do you. Some power, then great power, then out of the game. As for his ops, nothing said about his batting averages or number of doubles. Just a drop in power and injuries that seem to AT THE VERY LEAST, give room to speculation of something. It does fit the pattern to an extent. I would hope not but......



Javy's numbers aren't anything like Chippers'...  Javy went from a guy hitting an average of about 20 HR's to a year where he hit 43, and then right back down to 23 the next year.

I used OPS because its a very good all-around productivity scale... takes into account BA, BB's, HR's, 3B, 2B and 1B's.  Chipper's BA is pretty much always between .300 and .330.  Nowhere in his career did that jump suddenly or fall suddenly except for 2008 when he hit .364 and won the Batting Crown.  Likewise his doubles are almost always in the 30-40 range with the one outlier being 20 in 2004.  Before his "peak" in 1998, he still hit 41 2B in 1997.  And I don't buy the "when you're on steroids, doubles become HR's" line of thinking.

I, of course, admit there is a fair chance he did take them.  That mostly stems from my belief that just about every did/has at some point.


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## Tim L (Feb 19, 2010)

Kind of sad, this is Georgia and up until now no one has mentioned Hank Aaron....year after year one of the tops in the game, at bat, in the field, could even steal a base when needed...If you just go on God given talent, with the exception of Ted Williams, no one comes close..


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## CFGD (Feb 19, 2010)

most baseball historians and writers put willie mays ahead of aaron from what ive seen and read.he was great though.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Feb 19, 2010)

ramfreak said:


> most baseball historians and writers put willie mays ahead of aaron from what ive seen and read.he was great though.



and most of the ones I've heard say every flyball Mays made an awesome catch on, Mickey Mantle would have been camped out under...


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## CFGD (Feb 19, 2010)

frank thomas is another guy who had a sudden drop off in production.pretty much anybody who has played in the last 25 or so years is under suspicion.

but the "everybody else was doing it so i did too", mantra doesnt make it respectable.there is a reason the olympic commitee revokes medals from users.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Feb 19, 2010)

Well, several thoughts.

First Doc, I hope Chipper didn't. It would be another great career tainted in the public eye.

Secondly though, everyone of us here watch sports for entertainment. While some of us might actually play in a local league, like I wasted my 20's doing, or coaching, now that I'm in my 30's with kids, when we get home or at the pub and turn a game on, it's purely for entertainment. My opinion of this steroids thing is that I love to watch the game at it's highest level and I rarely even think about steroids when I'm watching it. barry Bonds might be so juiced up he tinkles pure hgh. still, I was captivated everytime he came up to the plate going I know you didn't just throw that as the ball sailed out. I was entertained as many of you are.

So why do we criticize "PROFESSIONAL" atheletes for enhancing their performance and we get googly eyed over a woman with a breast enhancement? A face lift? I knmow it's on a smaller level but why do men die their hair? To enhance their image. Weight loss pills to enhance figures. Viagra to enhance that sumthin sumthin. Our entire life revolves around enhancment in one way or another. Have a headache? take a pill. But the hypocrisy of people fussing at atheletes for enhancing their performance is just stupid to me. I know I'm in the minority.

And don't give me the legality issue either. Either you enhance or you don't. Just like the godaddy commercials. I just think the public at large gets on this soapbox and proclaims a holier than thou mentality, right before popping a pill to make whatever feel better. Similar with tiger today, dude, I know a bunch of fellows got caught cheating on their wives. They owed me no apology. But tiger has to because he's an athelete. Do Hollywood stars hold press conferences when they have affairs? Nope. different standards.

In the end, they are all well paid entertainers.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Feb 19, 2010)

And while I'm at it,

legalize the spitball

no ejections for merely throwing high and tight. They plunk us, we plunk them. Let players police it.

Outlaw the designated hitter

require a starting pitcher to go 6 & 2/3 before qualifying for a win

outlaw the radar gun. Call that one the Maddux rule

Get rid of lines catcher is supposed to stay in behind the plate. Either the ball goes over it or it don't

and enforce the strike zone as stated in the rulebook. Not waist to upper knee.

That's just for starters


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## CFGD (Feb 19, 2010)

i thought the same thing about tiger..dont really think he means any of that crap he was saying,hes thinking about future endorsements to lose/gain.why does he have to apologize to anyone but his wife for boning some chicks??maybe his wife should be apologizing to him for not being able to keep her man.same thing with halle berry..every man she's been with has cheated on her..wonder why???? not gettin the job done.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Feb 19, 2010)

Ram, I'll argue any point in the world with a few exceptions, blaming a spouse for not being great in certain situations being one of them. doesn't excuse adultery, my man. That's why it says for better or for worse. I'm not a saint so I think i'll be okay in saying you should drive the car before you buy it.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Feb 19, 2010)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> So why do we criticize "PROFESSIONAL" atheletes for enhancing their performance and we get googly eyed over a woman with a breast enhancement? A face lift? I knmow it's on a smaller level but why do men die their hair? To enhance their image. Weight loss pills to enhance figures. Viagra to enhance that sumthin sumthin. Our entire life revolves around enhancment in one way or another. Have a headache? take a pill. But the hypocrisy of people fussing at atheletes for enhancing their performance is just stupid to me. I know I'm in the minority.



Because in baseball, more than any other sport, the numbers are sacred.  714, 755, .406, 300, 56, 2130, 3000,  etc.  Everyone knows what those numbers mean.  Nobody can tell you how many yards Emmitt Smith had or how many TD's Jerry Rice caught.  How many points did Michael Jordan score?

Its not the fact that it helped them acheive _temporary_ greatness.  Its the fact that it helped many of them acheive all-time greatness.  It helped them to surpass the most hallowed records in all of sports and to overshadow true sports heroes who did it the honest and natural way like so many have mentioned in this thread; ie. Aaron, Mays, Mantle, Williams, Ruth, etc.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Feb 19, 2010)

I'll give you that point as the only valid argument against the entertainment aspect of it. Still, and I hold this opinion firmly, that while still great, I'm not convinced they would be as great of numbers in today's game. different era. Maybe they might be more. Hard to argue. .406, especially is a magical number to me because it's almost impossible to do in today's game with specialized late inning pitching. I'll give you the point as you stated it.

But other than numbers, there's not much of an argument. In fact, in a reverse move, one could say Ruth and Mantle cheated the game by their lifestyle choices. Imagine how good they could have been off the sauce?

But Doc, I agree with you on the sacredness of the numbers. But given these days and times, how can one compare the old numbers with the inflated numbers of today? Makes Greg Maddux all the more remarkable.

And to answer your question, (18,355) (208) and (32,292) respectively


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## CFGD (Feb 19, 2010)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Ram, I'll argue any point in the world with a few exceptions, blaming a spouse for not being great in certain situations being one of them. doesn't excuse adultery, my man. That's why it says for better or for worse. I'm not a saint so I think i'll be okay in saying you should drive the car before you buy it.



i didnt mean it excuses it or makes it ok..and i did'nt mean just bedroom stuff either.a woman can lose her husband to another chick for a variety of reasons.who knows what was goin on with them.it just seems whenever a man goes outside the marriage, HE is automatically to blame in the publics eye.people shouldnt be so quick to judge,thats all im saying


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## CollinsCraft77 (Feb 19, 2010)

I understand but read your own words, when he goes outside the marriage. He goes by chioce for whatever reason so I can kind of understand it both ways.


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## CFGD (Feb 19, 2010)

back to the roids...what i dont really get is,if maris was able to hit 61 in a season,why did it take mcgwire, sosa,and bonds roids to hit roughly only 10 more?better pitching i suppose?from what ive read the 60's pitching was pretty good.was their natural talent that average that when coupled with performance enhancers they didn't completely crush the record?


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## Tim L (Feb 20, 2010)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> and most of the ones I've heard say every flyball Mays made an awesome catch on, Mickey Mantle would have been camped out under...



Same thing with Aaron in the outfield...back in the day, when Mays, Rose, or Clemente would make a diving catch on a ball, Aaron more than likely would have been pounding his glove waiting for it to drop.  Great first step making a catch, alot like Andrew Jones in that regard.  But Hank was very non chalent out on the field, which makes it easy to forget what a great player he was.

But the Braves were loaded with great players those first few years (Matthews was about at the end of the line when they made it to Atlanta), Aaron, Carty, Alou, Mack Jones at different times in the outfield; Cepeda at first, Milan at second, Boyer at third; Torre behind the plate, and Sonny Jackson at short...the pitchers could hit too; Tony Clolinger hit two grand slams in one game; same game he came up with the bases loaded and hit a sac fly to the warning track...other pitchers, Jarvis, Lemaster,  Ken Johnson were OK but not great....Braves of that era were very similar to the Orioles from the same era, only they had much better starting pitching..

Don't know how I got from the original question to this, but those guys that came to Atlanta from Milwakee in 66 were pretty good!


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Feb 20, 2010)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> And to answer your question, (18,355) (208) and (32,292) respectively



you looked it up.  

My wife knows how many HR's Aaron hit...


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## CollinsCraft77 (Feb 21, 2010)

Like roids and some players, you'll never be able to prove it!!


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