# The issue that all lost people face....



## gtparts (Apr 22, 2011)

*Before we can begin to see the cross as something done for us, we have to see it as something done by us. John Stott”*


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## DavidB (Apr 23, 2011)

The way I see it, Jesus dying on the cross was God's way of paying the price for His creations fall in the garden. If you recall, it was not until Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  Based on the name of that tree as well as the command that God gave Adam not to eat from that tree, I can only assume that upon obtaining that knowledge they were thus accountable under the Law. Before that took place, they were not.

It is obvious that the effect was immediate, as they immediately saw themselves to be naked and took measures to cover themselves up. The Bible says that before they were naked and felt no shame. 

I have brought all of this up to point out that from this time forward, God found Himself in a position that He would need to remedy in order to save His creation from being judged under the Law. Even though the Law wasn't given to Moses to present to the people until much later in history, I believe it had always existed and therefore carried the weight of the penalties for breaking it from the very beginning. This is why God ordered Adam and Eve from the garden before they ate the fruit from the tree of life and would live in this new state forever.

I said all of this to point out that the " something done by us" that Mr. Stott refers to can only be the fall of man as this was the beginning of the state that man finds himself in today, without receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior.

On a different thought, I often wonder where the idea of a victim-less crime ever got started. It occurs to me that there is no such thing as even if it is only the perpetrator, there is always a price to pay, therefore there is also always a victim.


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## formula1 (Apr 23, 2011)

*Re:*

I sent Jesus to the cross, I killed Him, my sin destroyed Him. I deserve death as payment for my sin.

But He Loved me anyway!!! That is the Power of the Cross!

Thank you Jesus for forgiving me and for forgiving ALL who have believed and will believe until you come on the clouds of Glory! You are my King!


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## huntmore (Apr 25, 2011)

Everyone of us held the hammer that drove in the nails and we all put the crown of thorns on his head.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 26, 2011)

Don't you think that a person doesn't actually come to understand the cross until after they become believers?
And I fear that many Christians haven't come to terms with it.


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## formula1 (Apr 26, 2011)

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> Don't you think that a person doesn't actually come to understand the cross until after they become believers?
> And I fear that many Christians haven't come to terms with it.




For many, I think true on both counts!


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## JFS (Apr 28, 2011)

I don't disagree with the sentiment, but you may have the problem backward.  If Jesus is integrally entwined with the fall, what happens when fewer people believe in the fall?  This I think is the struggle the church faces today- the garden of eden is an increasingly remote concept for many, so how do you balance that with the traditional explanation for the crucification.


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## gtparts (Apr 28, 2011)

JFS said:


> I don't disagree with the sentiment, but you may have the problem backward.  If Jesus is integrally entwined with the fall, what happens when fewer people believe in the fall?  This I think is the struggle the church faces today- the garden of eden is an increasingly remote concept for many, so how do you balance that with the traditional explanation for the crucification.



The "fall from grace in the Garden" may be an issue, maybe not. Many have begun the Christian walk with nothing more than the Gospel of John. Most don't need a whole lot to realize that they have fallen far short of perfection. Trying to be as good as possible can be a heavy burden. Many just need a "personal guide" in the way of a friend who cares enough to share Christ. The Holy Spirit pretty much has to do the rest. He has done it with no human around, with a Bible in a bedside table of a hotel or motel.


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## HawgJawl (Apr 28, 2011)

I have a question regarding mankind's fall from grace in the Garden of Eden.

If every human descendent of Adam and Eve inherited the guilt of the "original sin" and are born sinners, then why did Jesus not also inherit this sin upon His birth?  Jesus was a descendent of David and Abraham and Noah and Adam.  Jesus was a man.  Jesus had a human mother.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 28, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> I have a question regarding mankind's fall from grace in the Garden of Eden.
> 
> If every human descendent of Adam and Eve inherited the guilt of the "original sin" and are born sinners, then why did Jesus not also inherit this sin upon His birth?  Jesus was a descendent of David and Abraham and Noah and Adam.  Jesus was a man.  Jesus had a human mother.



Jesus wasn't born of the seed of man.  Jesus was born of God His father.  Proven by His sinless life.  And in that sinless life He rose above the sinful nature of Adam.

For more, you'll have to ask God one day.


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## gtparts (Apr 28, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> I have a question regarding mankind's fall from grace in the Garden of Eden.
> 
> If every human descendent of Adam and Eve inherited the guilt of the "original sin" and are born sinners, then why did Jesus not also inherit this sin upon His birth?  Jesus was a descendent of David and Abraham and Noah and Adam.  Jesus was a man.  Jesus had a human mother.


You've overlooked the obvious. The human form that Jesus had here on earth was miraculously conceived through the working of the Holy Spirit; Jesus, being pre-existent, was perfect ( no sin nature) prior to and during the incarnation (and, of course,since then). The malady of having a sin nature is only intrinsic to those who are 100% human and 0% divine.


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## JFS (Apr 28, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> I have a question regarding mankind's fall from grace in the Garden of Eden.
> 
> If every human descendent of Adam and Eve inherited the guilt of the "original sin" and are born sinners, then why did Jesus not also inherit this sin upon His birth?  Jesus was a descendent of David and Abraham and Noah and Adam.  Jesus was a man.  Jesus had a human mother.



The Immaculate Conception?

Most people think that refers to the conception of Jesus, but it's really about Mary's sinlessness.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp


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## HawgJawl (May 3, 2011)

JFS said:


> The Immaculate Conception?
> 
> Most people think that refers to the conception of Jesus, but it's really about Mary's sinlessness.
> 
> http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp



I read the link you provided.  If I misunderstood, please correct me, but what I read was that Jesus saved Mary before Mary was even born so that she was born without sin and lived without sin at least until Jesus was born.  Is that correct?


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## JFS (May 3, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> I read the link you provided.  If I misunderstood, please correct me, but what I read was that Jesus saved Mary before Mary was even born so that she was born without sin and lived without sin at least until Jesus was born.  Is that correct?



Better to ask a Catholic than me, but that's not the way I understand it.  From the link I provided:

_"The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings."_


Now you tempt me to drag up the nonsense of the Trinity, but there is no reference to Jesus' intervention, just that of god.  Implicit in your question could be that if god could lift the stain of original sin for Mary without the sacrifice of Jesus incarnate why not just do do it for everyone and skip the bloodbath.   And I would agree with that, but I'm not the one making this stuff up.


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