# Warren's Gospel



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 22, 2009)

*Warren's Gospel* 

<EMBED src=http://www.youtube.com/v/EzeETJTE1W4&hl=en&fs=1 width=425 height=344 type=application/x-shockwave-flash allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always"></EMBED>


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 22, 2009)

Got to agree with that assessment. Rick Warren is taking the parable of the Talents a little TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO far...

Anymore questions on why never to read just a bible verse?

That was a good video clip.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 22, 2009)

Well, I think I know what he was trying to say.
But if he was trying to say what I think he was saying,
he did a terrible job.
Actually, he fell off the cliff backwards.

Matthew 25 might shed some light:
44"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 
45"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


----------



## redneckcamo (Feb 22, 2009)

honestly !!! we are living in the time of APOSTASY !! not the ''great spiritual awakening '' that most ''feel good'' preachers teach !!!  it is not by works of our own that we will stand in white before Jehovah ...but by the red Blood of the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world  !!! Our modern day ''church'' is infected with deceit an coveteousness !!!  good works are not a way too salvation and righteousness ...they are the result of it !!! rick warren as MOST of the others today DO NOT impress me ..... but give me a country preacher who is burdend with the loss of souls an lives by ''seek ye first'' an I have an ear too hear !!!!


----------



## Banjo (Feb 23, 2009)

Rick Warren should be held accountable.  If he is still a member of the Southern Baptist Association...they should call him to repentance.  If he refuses, they should oust him.

He is a sell-out and a compromiser.


----------



## gordon 2 (Feb 23, 2009)

And get to be another denomination where God is present...????

The problem I see here is that pastors forget that folks these days go behond marking their X and dropping a fiver in the plate to can read and rite.


----------



## gtparts (Feb 23, 2009)

Sorry, folks, but the kind folks that produced the edited clip did Rick and those who watched it a great disservice. His teaching in this clip is NOT on salvation. It is on discipleship and stewardship, and there is ample scripture to support what he was saying. He starts out by stating that he is talking about pleasing God.

Alittleleaven.com is just using a deceptively crafted 2+ minutes to do one thing.....tear down Rick Warren and by extension harm the work that God is doing through Rick and the members of Saddleback Community. Perhaps they believe they are enhancing their own stature as well. I do not know. 

I do know Rick is a godly man who faithfully seeks the Lord's leading in the work God has called him to. He is a preacher and teacher first. While he is evangelistic in his personal life, he is not called to evangelism in his present life's work.

And nowhere in that clip did he say salvation was a matter of works. His position, while speaking to Christians in a teaching setting, is much as we find in the book of James.

Peace.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 23, 2009)

GT we will part company on that one.


----------



## Banjo (Feb 23, 2009)

Rick Warren offers "purpose driven" pastor training for "churches" outside of Christianity.  Do you think is is really about "saving" souls?  If so, why would he train Mormon churches...or Jews how to "strengthen" their churches?

"Warren is part of the ultra-conservative Southern Baptist Convention, and all his senior staff sign on to the SBC's doctrines, such as the literal and infallible Bible and exclusion of women as senior pastors. Yet Warren's pastor-training programs welcome Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Jews and ordained women.

"I'm not going to get into a debate over the non-essentials. I won't try to change other denominations. Why be divisive?" he asks, citing as his model Billy Graham, "a statesman for Christ ministering across barriers."  
http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-07-21-rick-warren_x.htm


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 23, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> GT we will part company on that one.



Celt...I'm with you on this one.

Warren is nothing more than a wolf in sheep's clothing.


----------



## addictedtodeer (Feb 23, 2009)

I hate edited clips. Let us see the transcript of the full sermon.

I do disagree with Rick Warren on many of his methods, but before we go and accuse another brother of apostasy let us make sure nothing is taken out of context and let us go in the manner of James 5:19-20.
The world loves it when we (Christians) do their job for them (mainly kill our wounded).
Our job is to pray and lovingly seek to return a fallen brother back to God. Let us not sink to the level of the sin within us that Jesus died for.


----------



## Jeffriesw (Feb 23, 2009)

addictedtodeer said:


> I hate edited clips. Let us see the transcript of the full sermon.
> I do disagree with Rick Warren on many of his methods, but before we go and accuse another brother of apostasy let us make sure nothing is taken out of context and let us go in the manner of James 5:19-20.
> The world loves it when we (Christians) do their job for them (mainly kill our wounded).Our job is to pray and lovingly seek to return a fallen brother back to God. Let us not sink to the level of the sin within us that Jesus died for.





X's 2


----------



## No. GA. Mt. Man (Feb 23, 2009)

Not a fan of Warren.


----------



## gtparts (Feb 23, 2009)

Banjo said:


> "I'm not going to get into a debate over the non-essentials. I won't try to change other denominations. Why be divisive?" he asks, citing as his model Billy Graham, "a statesman for Christ ministering across barriers."
> 
> -Rick Warren-
> http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-07-21-rick-warren_x.htm



Can you think of a better way to reach the world with the "essentials"? Or maybe the approach Rick uses is just different from a more traditional one. He does not skip purpose #3, #4, or #5 in his leadership classes in order to be "seeker friendly", as you seem to think. He is not judgmental considering the motivation of attendees. He merely seeks the opportunity to present Jesus to people of influence who may have no,  little, or erroneous understanding of who Jesus really is and what He has accomplished on the cross and in His resurrection.

It is not about Rick; it is not about Rick's Purpose; it is about God's Purpose for His creation. Could Rick stumble? Has he stumbled? It is possible, but is it within your mandate to "shoot the wounded" if he is?

I would suggest you do your due diligence, first.
Then, if you find him coming up short, call him to repentance ...and be specific concerning where you see a need for correction. 


Romans 14:12-13

So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God. 
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge ye this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock in his brother`s way, or an occasion of falling. 

1John 2:10-11

He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is no occasion of stumbling in him. 
But he that hateth his brother is in the darkness, and walketh in the darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because the darkness hath blinded his eyes. 

Matthew 7:3

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother`s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

James 5:19-20

 My brethren, if any among you err from the truth, and one convert him;  let him know, that he who converteth a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 23, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Celt...I'm with you on this one.
> 
> Warren is nothing more than a wolf in sheep's clothing.



You really think he's out to destroy churches?  You don't think he's a servant of Christ?


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 23, 2009)

No. GA. Mt. Man said:


> Not a fan of Warren.



Not being a fan is just fine.  I'm not really a huge fan either.

Accusations of apostacy, wolf in sheep's clothing, or just generally working for Satan are JUST a bit over the line IMO.

We sit around here all the time and wonder why the non-believers who view this forum question us on our sincerity.

Any of these hate filled posts actually DOING anything for the glory of God?  I'm not defending the man....I'm questioning your motivation.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 23, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> You really think he's out to destroy churches?  You don't think he's a servant of Christ?



No...I never said he was out to destroy churches...he's out there to build them.  But the churches he is building are not those that are based upon the true Gospel of Christ.

They are based on a watered down message that has more to do with you than with God.  Anyone who preaches that people are basically good and just need to try a little bit harder is preaching a message that is not in-line with the Bible.

That is what his book the purpose driven life is all about.  It is weak at best.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 23, 2009)

I'm glad I only have to live up to GOD'S expectations....


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 23, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm glad I only have to live up to GOD'S expectations....



So what do you think His expectations are?

Or...how do you think my expectations differ from God's?  I try to keep my expectations in line with God's...for it is He that I live for and His Word that is my guide.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 23, 2009)

I'm just sayin'.  You guys would tear me apart....


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 23, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm just sayin'.  You guys would tear me apart....



I know...we already do

All I know is that the drums were created by the devil himself


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 23, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I know...we already do
> 
> All I know is that the drums were created by the devil himself



Why do you think the set we use in our church is BLACK????


----------



## gtparts (Feb 23, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> No...I never said he was out to destroy churches...he's out there to build them.  But the churches he is building are not those that are based upon the true Gospel of Christ.
> 
> They are based on a watered down message that has more to do with you than with God.  Anyone who preaches that people are basically good and just need to try a little bit harder is preaching a message that is not in-line with the Bible.
> 
> That is what his book the purpose driven life is all about.  It is weak at best.



rj,

The PDL deserves a second read, brother. Did you even make it to Purpose #3?  No, he doesn't hit the sin issue hard....no heckfire or brimstone. He does cover the behavior issue from the positive side. Being obedient to Christ makes trips to the woodshed rarely necessary. Christ did not whip the Samaritan woman at the well with the windlass rope to effect change in her life. He understands better than anyone the difference between motivating and punishing.

Peace.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 24, 2009)

gtparts said:


> rj,
> 
> The PDL deserves a second read, brother. Did you even make it to Purpose #3?  No, he doesn't hit the sin issue hard....no heckfire or brimstone. He does cover the behavior issue from the positive side. Being obedient to Christ makes trips to the woodshed rarely necessary. Christ did not whip the Samaritan woman at the well with the windlass rope to effect change in her life. He understands better than anyone the difference between motivating and punishing.
> 
> Peace.



Oh...okay...so Christ never preached on he ll?

What did He do to the money lenders/sellers in the temple?

Are we to leave out any mention of discipline? or the penalty for sin?

If we don't know how evil we are, we'll never understand our need for a savior.  That is the problem with most people today.  They think that they are "good enough" and "better than most" so they think that God will not send them to he ll.  That is the issue I have with Warren's teaching.  It furthers this message.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 24, 2009)

RJ- You hit the nail on the head. Warren and so many others preach this fuzzy little lovable Christ and forget he is part of the Trinity (or don't believe it all together) and God laid waste to his enemies and Christ ran the money lenders out of the temple with righteous anger and violence. A Gospel without sin and H*ll is only half the Gospel.


----------



## Banjo (Feb 24, 2009)

> Warren and so many others preach this fuzzy little lovable Christ and forget he is part of the Trinity (or don't believe it all together) and God laid waste to his enemies and Christ ran the money lenders out of the temple with righteous anger and violence. A Gospel without sin and H*ll is only half the Gospel.



Revelation 19:
 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 24, 2009)

Doesn't sound like a pansy to me... Good scripture quote Banjo.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 24, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Oh...okay...so Christ never preached on he ll?
> 
> What did He do to the money lenders/sellers in the temple?
> 
> ...




Where does he say that there is no He LL and where does he dismiss the issue of sin?  Is there a problem with focusing a book on the good parts of being in relationship with Christ?

Why do we insist on focussing on depravity, evil and how terrible we are all the time?   I read something the other day that hit me hard and it applies to me often.

We too often think of ourselves as "forgiven sinners rather than redeemed saints".  You guys can sit around and lament how bad you are all day long if you want.  I AM A REDEEMED SAINT!  Satan will pull you back into guilt, shame and worthlessnes simply by reminding you every day how bad you were and how bad you are still.  He will tell you "you don't deserve to be loved", "you don't deserve to consider yourself a saint".  

I understand what you guys are saying.  But the consistent message on this forum is that we are depraved.  We are terrible.  We are ONLY forgiven sinners.  God doesn't want us to think well of ourselves.  I DON'T BUY IT! 

God DOES love me!  He DOES have a purpose for me that is greater than anything I can imagine!  He DOES want me to be happy!  But my happiness is held in glorifying him and that is the key.  My happiness reflects him and that glorifies him (and if you wanna take issue with Warren on that point....call John Piper as well...he wrote a book about it).

Folks, the Christian life is not miserable.  Why do we attack anyone who writes a book that has a positive message for the Christian life?  Why do we attack anyone who speaks positively of a human creation that was made in the image of God?

You guys attack the "feel good gospel" and I understand (and actually agree with your reasons).  But, tell me something, does the gospel NOT feel good to you?  You guys act like we should not enjoy the presence of Christ in our lives and the forgiveness and freedom that he brings with him.  Geez!

It's just ridiculous.  You guys sound like Obama....doom, gloom, crisis.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 24, 2009)

Huntinfool  & GTP

You're missing my point.  I do agree that the Christian life is a blast.  Just like the Solomon said in Ecclesiastes...If you are living for God, you will be able to follow the desires of your heart.  

I get to do what I want  I get to follow Christ

But the problem with Warren and his gospel is that the focus is not on what Christ did for me...but what I can do for Christ.  Apart from Christ, I am nothing.  Warren fails to mention the fact that without Christ, we are sinners.

Roms 5:8

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


Romans 5 is filled with passages that show God's love for us.  But the amazing thing about God's love towards us is that He did it inspite of our iniquities...inspite of our fallenness...inspite of our sin.  Without preaching the sinfulness of man, it cheapens the Love of God.  

Redeeming a man that is good is one thing, but redeeming a man that is worthless is that much more.


----------



## gtparts (Feb 24, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Oh...okay...so Christ never preached on he ll?
> 
> What did He do to the money lenders/sellers in the temple?
> 
> ...



The PDL was never meant to be an all encompassing view of Warren's understanding of theology, and particularly does not embody the totality of what he preaches and writes about. 9/10ths of an iceberg is below the surface. You see the portion above the water line and make assumptions as to the shape of that below. Does that really make sense?

Furthermore, the book was written and received principally because the approach  was from the perspective of answering some of life's most perplexing questions. The questions he started with do not reflect all the questions that we encounter in life, nor does it attempt to address or reflect all that is found in the Bible. That does not make it inherently bad or wrong.

I only pray that my life will be at least to some degree as successful in leading people to Christ as Rick's has been.

Your questions posed above are not relevant in as much as none of us are called to be perfect clones of Jesus to the extent that we must say and do everything that He said and did. By pointing out what God intended for us and the purpose for which we were created, Rick effectively contrasts what we are, what we have, and what we have done, with who we were meant to be, what we have not received, and what we have failed to do. Clearly, we have fallen short of the glory of God. The Gospel is the Good News. It contrasts the results of a life lived for God with a life lived in rebellion to God. It is easy to see what one lacks by being shown what one could have. One does not have to be taken to the "wood shed" all the time to understand that one certainly deserves that "side trip". Many have been saved by experiencing the love and mercy that Christ shows through His followers.

Grace and peace to you and yours.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 24, 2009)

> But the problem with Warren and his gospel is that the focus is not on what Christ did for me...but what I can do for Christ.



I really don't agree with that man.  I think that's what broad understanding of Warren and his book has become.  But few actually take the time to see what's there.  I know there are quotes on both sides of this.  But look at this...

_"The purpose of your life is far greater than your own personal fulfillment, your peace of mind, or even your happiness. It's far greater than your family, your career, or even your wildest dreams and ambitions. If you want to know why you were placed on this planet, you must begin with God. You were born by his purpose and for his purpose." -- P.17_

_"The abundant life has nothing to do with material abundance...Never focus on temporary crowns.

Paul was faithful, yet he ended up in prison. John the Baptist was faithful, but he was beheaded. Millions of faithful people have been martyred, have lost everything, or have come to the end of life with nothing to show for it. But the end of life is not the end!" -- P.50_

_"Living the rest of your life for the glory of God will require a change in your priorities, your schedule, you relationships, and everything else. It will sometimes mean choosing a difficult path instead of any easy one. Even Jesus struggled with this. Knowing he was about to be crucified, he cried out: "My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, 'Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour. Father, glorify Thy name." -- P.57_

_"Receive Jesus into your life as your Lord and Savior. Receive his forgiveness for your sins. Receive his Spirit, who will give you the power to fulfill your life purpose. "
-- P.58-59_

_"Remember what God has already done for you. If God never did anything else for you, he would still deserve your continual praise for the rest of your life because of what Jesus did for you on the cross. God's Son died for you! This is the greatest reason for worship." --P.112_


It IS in there.  To deny it is just to have your head in the sand.  Disagree with the man's methods.  I won't have an issue.  But to call the judgement of God down on him is just insanity.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 24, 2009)

gtparts said:


> The PDL was never meant to be an all encompassing view of Warren's understanding of theology, and particularly does not embody the totality of what he preaches and writes about. 9/10ths of an iceberg is below the surface. You see the portion above the water line and make assumptions as to the shape of that below. Does that really make sense?





Huntinfool said:


> It IS in there.  To deny it is just to have your head in the sand.  Disagree with the man's methods.  I won't have an issue.  But to call the judgement of God down on him is just insanity.




Okay...I'll agree...it is a good motivational book.  I'm fine with that.  The problem is that it is being used as a Christian instructional manual of how to get closer to God.  I think it is extremely lacking at best in that matter.

I think it is dangerous to have Bible Studies devoted to this book.  Again....the book in and of itself is not an inherently bad book.  The problem is that it has been given out like a gospel tract to those who don't have an idea of who Jesus is and it is not the gospel.  Is that Warren's fault?  I don't know.  I do know that he hasn't done anything to keep this from happening while rolling in the $$ from the royalties and churches buying into the PDL and PDC method.


----------



## gtparts (Feb 24, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Huntinfool  & GTP
> 
> You're missing my point.  I do agree that the Christian life is a blast.  Just like the Solomon said in Ecclesiastes...If you are living for God, you will be able to follow the desires of your heart.
> 
> ...



Rick does preach repentance. You have not done your due diligence as regards his preaching, if you have arrived at the conclusion that he does not address sin from the pulpit and as he gives leadership to Saddleback, he does not water down the Gospel. To continue to argue with a lost person that they have a problem with sin, who refuses to acknowledge it, is to waste time that could be spent with someone who recognizes his or her sin and is at the point of confession and repentance. A fruit picker does not stop picking ripe fruit to wait on one piece of fruit to ripen, but leaves it so that in due time it might ripen. The written word, even The PDL, may cause some to reconsider long after the initial reading and , perhaps, long after Rick is called Home.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 24, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Rick does preach repentance. You have not done your due diligence as regards his preaching, if you have arrived at the conclusion that he does not address sin from the pulpit and as he gives leadership to Saddleback, he does not water down the Gospel.



I guess not....I'll admit, I've not listened to a lot of his sermons...I've not been to his church (although I've got friends that have and friends that have talked with members of his staff).  

I put him in the same category as Osteen.  Great motivator....poor expositor of God's Word.  

If you can point me to any messages that he has that confront sin, point out the problem with other religions, preach the exclusivity of Christ...I'll be more than happy to listen and change my opinion.


----------



## Banjo (Feb 24, 2009)

Does anyone (but me and my friend, rjcruiser)have a problem with Rick teaching the Mormon's to grow their churches...anyone, anyone....


----------



## Banjo (Feb 24, 2009)

How 'bout this:

â€œI humbly ask this in the name of the one who changed my life, Yeshua, Isa, Jesus, Jesus (hay-SOOS), who taught us to pray, Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. â€“Rick Warren, from inauguration prayer

The following is excerpted from Daniel Cordell,
â€œPraying in the Name of Isa,â€� Loveforthetruth.com, Jan. 20, 2009:
â€œToday, in his Presidential Inauguration prayer, Rick Warren prayed in the name of `Yeshua, Isa, and Jesus.´ It seems the three names Warren used were to imply the three `Abrahamic Faiths´ (as they are so-called), Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. What´s significant is the name `Isa´ being prayed by the `evangelical´ Warren. `Isa´ is strictly Koranic and used by Arab Muslims. Even Arab Christians don´t refer to Isa,´ but to `Yesua.´ I´ve lived and studied Arabic in one of the same Muslim countries that Warren has visited, and I think he probably knows that the Arab Christian communities only refer to Jesus as `Yesua´ and not `Isa´ as the Muslims. `Isa´ was not Jewish, but Palestinian. `Isa´ did not die on the cross but instead had someone die in his place. `Isa´ is a Muslim prophet. `Isa´ is only found in the Koran. The name `Isa´ doesn´t have any Biblical support or any meaning found in Biblical scholarship. Yet, Rick prayed in the name of `Isa.´â€�


----------



## Banjo (Feb 24, 2009)

This might do the trick:

Warren praising Obama for inviting Gay Bishop to Pray at Inauguration....

"President-elect Obama has again demonstrated his genuine commitment to bringing all Americans of goodwill together in search of common ground," Warren said in a statement to Christianity Today. "I applaud his desire to be the president of every citizen.” 

Anybody say..."Compromiser...."

“I was trying to point out I’m not opposed to gays having their partnership. I’m opposed to gays using the term marriage for their relationship.” - Rick Warren

http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/23/rick-warren-out-of-the-closet/

http://www.thevoicemagazine.com/headline-news/396-rick-warren-applauds-obama-gene-robinson.html


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 24, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Does anyone (but me)have a problem with Rick teaching the Mormon's to grow their churches...anyone, anyone....





Banjo said:


> How 'bout this:
> 
> “I humbly ask this in the name of the one who changed my life, Yeshua, Isa, Jesus, Jesus (hay-SOOS), who taught us to pray, Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. –Rick Warren, from inauguration prayer
> 
> ...



Very interesting...hadn't read that about Isa.  But, if you did read my post...you'll notice this.



rjcruiser said:


> If you can point me to any messages that he has that confront sin, point out the problem with other religions, preach the exclusivity of Christ...I'll be more than happy to listen and change my opinion.


----------



## Banjo (Feb 24, 2009)

An open letter to Rick Warren

© 2009 
Editor's note: The following is a column adapted from a letter Joseph Farah wrote to Rick Warren last week about his agreement to offer the invocation at the inauguration of Barack Hussein Obama on Jan. 20.

I'm writing to share my profound and abject revulsion at your agreement to offer the invocation at the inauguration of Barack Hussein Obama as president Jan. 20.

I understand you want this to be a time of "healing" for our nation. I understand you consider Obama to be your "friend." I understand your desire to bring "civility" to our society.

However, when we read the Bible, we see there are times for men of God to stand up to leaders, like Nathan did to King David, and confront them with the absolute truth of God's word and His laws. That's what all Christians should do when confronted with leaders embracing evil.

Evil?

That's a strong word.

But I use it advisedly.

Let's focus on just one of Obama's evil policies, though there are dozens more we should consider.

Barack Obama is opposed to any and all restrictions on the killing of unborn children and has pledged to work against the few that remain. In fact, as a state legislator in Illinois, he pushed a law that would require the killing of babies born alive after unsuccessful abortions. You know he will also open the floodgates to the use of U.S. taxpayer dollars to fund abortion overseas through groups like Planned Parenthood and agencies such as the United Nations Population Fund. You should note the U.N. supports forced abortions and sterilizations in China. He has even promised to sign into law the Freedom of Choice Act, which would make illegal even peaceful efforts to persuade mothers from aborting their babies. In essence, Obama holds and has pledged to enforce, a radical pro-abortion position that will curtail free speech, freedom of religion and ensure that many more innocent lives will be destroyed.

I call that evil.

I would hope you, a pastor of the gospel of Jesus Christ, would also call that evil.

I'm trying to imagine Jesus giving an invocation at the inauguration of such a man. I think you will agree, it's unimaginable.

So why are you ready, willing and eager to do this thing?

I ask you, as a brother in the Lord, to examine your heart, your mind and your soul as to your motivations for offering this prayer.

Yes, we are commanded to pray for our leaders. But there is no suggestion in the Bible that we are ever to be used as political pawns by praying at their events â€“ especially when they are promoting the wholesale slaughter of innocent human beings.

I understand your yearning for civility.

I yearn for it, too.

But civility begins with the understanding that we are all made in the image of God. It begins with the rejection of the shedding of innocent blood. It begins with the church standing boldly upon its absolute convictions in the Word of God and in His laws.

I'm sure you would not want to invoke God's blessing on the inauguration of a figure like Adolf Hitler, whose rise to power brought the destruction of millions of lives.

So, in principle, you agree there is a time for believers to stand up to elected leaders and rebuke them â€“ even publicly. Apparently, you don't believe that time is now â€“ that the deaths of untold numbers of born and unborn babies is not justification enough for such a stance.

I disagree.

I want you to know that.

God will not bless the Obama administration's plans for murder, no matter what you say on Jan. 20. It's time for Rick Warren to decide whether he stands with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob or if he stands with the world and his "friend," Barack Hussein Obama.


----------



## Banjo (Feb 24, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Very interesting...hadn't read that about Isa.  But, if you did read my post...you'll notice this.



My apologies, rj......I will edit accordingly.


----------



## Banjo (Feb 24, 2009)

How about Rick headlining at Muslim Event:
http://www.mpac.org/convention/speakers.php

You think he went to proclaim Christ crucified...You think he will warn them that they worship a false god who will lead them straight to he77?


----------



## gtparts (Feb 24, 2009)

Banjo said:


> How 'bout this:
> 
> “I humbly ask this in the name of the one who changed my life, Yeshua, Isa, Jesus, Jesus (hay-SOOS), who taught us to pray, Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. –Rick Warren, from inauguration prayer
> 
> ...



I can see why some would have misgivings about this, if one had preconceptions about Rick or his motivation, but there are other considerations one might make.

1) This was part of what can only be described as a secular event involving multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, multi-religious peoples.

2) If the name Jesus was to be invoked at such a gathering, the use of several linguistic renderings of that name might be appropriate for the sake of appearing more inclusive, rather than being obviously exclusive and possibly abrasive. It would seem a little over-the-top to have multiple full translations of the prayer read consecutively or simultaneously.......... and what about the entire ceremony?

3) There is always the possibility of God using the prayer, as presented, to lead one or more Muslims into considering the use of "Isa" with the other translations, thus prompting research or causing questions to be asked concerning the Jesus of the Bible. After all, Mohamed lifted what he chose from Christianity some 500 years after Christ ascended into heaven. A look back might be revealing, to a questioning Muslim.

Finally, if you have issue, contact Saddleback and ask what the thinking was behind Rick's particular wording.

Peace.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 24, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Finally, if you have issue, contact Saddleback and ask what the thinking was behind Rick's particular wording.


 

That is easy... He didn't want to offend anyone.... Which to me betrayed to one chance he had to several million people to proclaim the Truth...

Invoking a prayer with any other name other than Jesus is proof enough for me...

DB BB


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 24, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Okay...I'll agree...it is a good motivational book.  I'm fine with that.  The problem is that it is being used as a Christian instructional manual of how to get closer to God.  I think it is extremely lacking at best in that matter.




But who's fault is that?  Is that what he put it out there for?  No, it's not.  

That's what it's being used for.  But that is NOT what it was published as.  That's my point.  It seems like there are a bunch of folks who just want to be anti-establishment....just for the sake of saying "I'm anti-establishment".


----------



## gtparts (Feb 24, 2009)

He was not invited to pray so that he be able to offend people. 

I am sure that he fully understood that regardless of what he prayed, some would be offended and obviously some were. I, for one, would have cautioned him against including the Islamic name for Jesus but he didn't ask me.

I would make this one observation: I think it foolish to expect someone to accept a free offer in their best interest after you have ticked them off by appearing rude or uncaring. They usually have no interest in what you have to offer.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 24, 2009)

As I've said before, I don't agree with everything that he does.  But guess what, I DON'T AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THAT YOU GUYS DO EITHER....and I don't question whether what you'r doing is for the kingdom or whether God should send his wrath down on you.

There is no doubt that Rick Warren has furthered the kingdom of God in his life.  Maybe he does not enphasize He  ll  enough for you.  Maybe he does not condemn other religions enough for you. 

By his own admission, he preaches "attraction evangelism" which means you love people enough and the will come to the kingdom of Christ.  I actually believe that as well, but I would disagree with some of his methods.  I think it is one method of evangelism among many....but the gospel never changes (and it doesn't change with Warren either).  He operates under the assumption that you don't need to point out that the muslim faith is wrong to a muslim.  They know what we think.  But, if you love them and show them Christ, they may eventually want to know what it is that makes you the way you are.  Ultimately, Rick will tell you that he only believes in one path to salvation, in one God and in the trinity.  He just doesn't see the need to be devisive.  People will be drawn to the love of Christ and when they come, they will be told about why their religion is wrong.  They will be told why their actions are sinful and why they need to put their faith in the one, true, God.

You don't like the way he does it.  But he is furthering the kingdom.  Of that, I have no doubts.  I have no doubts about his motivations either.  They are not for the evil that you accuse him of.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 24, 2009)

gtparts said:


> He was not invited to pray so that he be able to offend people.
> 
> I am sure that he fully understood that regardless of what he prayed, some would be offended and obviously some were. I, for one, would have cautioned him against including the Islamic name for Jesus but he didn't ask me.
> 
> I would make this one observation: I think it foolish to expect someone to accept a free offer in their best interest after you have ticked them off by appearing rude or uncaring. They usually have no interest in what you have to offer.


 
Warren should have refused the offer then.

DB BB


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 24, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Warren should have refused the offer then.
> 
> DB BB



So what you're saying is that because he used the word "Isa", which is the islamic term for Jesus, he sold out?

IMO, he was making the point, that no matter what you call him, Yeshua, Isa, Jesus, Jesus....he will change your life.

Anybody fail to notice that this statement was IMMEDIATELY followed by the Lord's Prayer...as in the prayer that Jesus taught us to pray?  Anybody else notice that?

Yeh, Rick Warren....BIG sellout.  You're right.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 24, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> So what you're saying is that because he used the word "Isa", which is the islamic term for Jesus, he sold out?
> 
> IMO, he was making the point, that no matter what you call him, Yeshua, Isa, Jesus, Jesus....he will change your life.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, I think he is a Sellout!  I know shocked you didn't I...

The Lord's Prayer is meant for a Model for our prayers...

DB BB


----------



## Banjo (Feb 24, 2009)

Rick Warren....spreading Universalism....one inaugural speech at a time.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 24, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> But who's fault is that?  Is that what he put it out there for?  No, it's not.



I'd say it is...why?  Look what followed the book....the Purpose Driven Church.



			
				GTParts said:
			
		

> Finally, if you have issue, contact Saddleback and ask what the thinking was behind Rick's particular wording.


I personally have not.  But I have a friend that wrote an editorial on the PDL and attempted to meet with Warren.  Warren was unable to attend, but sent one of his staffers instead (reasonable as I understand Warren is an extremely busy man).  However, based on that lunch meeting, it was extremely dissappointing to see how spineless Warren's ministry was/is.  


Lastly, about being divisive.  Isn't God's Word divisive?  Isn't it sharper than a two edged sword...cutting to the core?  If you aren't ashamed by your sin...if you aren't confronted by your sin...why bother with a Saviour?


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 24, 2009)

It's not a question of whether it's devisive.  It's sharper than a two-edged sword...agreed.


It's a question of when you pull that sword out.  You guys seem to want to pull it and chop somebody's head off right off the bat.

Seems like you guys just want to shove it down their throat and move on to the next victim.  Rick prefers to establish a relationship first, then show the errors.  Same result....different method.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 24, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> It's not a question of whether it's devisive.  It's sharper than a two-edged sword...agreed.
> 
> 
> It's a question of when you pull that sword out.  You guys seem to want to pull it and chop somebody's head off right off the bat.
> ...




I don't mind developing a relationship first....but how long do you wait?  When do you confront someone with the sin in their life?

Also, I've not seen when Rick has shown errors.  Can you point me to anything where he is confronting sin in people's lives?  Everything I've read or seen has been powder puffs.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 24, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> It's not a question of whether it's devisive. It's sharper than a two-edged sword...agreed.
> 
> 
> It's a question of when you pull that sword out. You guys seem to want to pull it and chop somebody's head off right off the bat.
> ...


 

The Sword is pulled out everytime you open the Word of God.  It is not meant to chop someones head off, it is meant to cut to the core of the problem which is and always will be SIN.

DB BB


----------



## Banjo (Feb 24, 2009)

> Seems like you guys just want to shove it down their throat and move on to the next victim. Rick prefers to establish a relationship first, then show the errors. Same result....different method.



Ahhh...Pragmatism....A Seeker Sensitive Churches' Best Friend.  

The problem is the ends doesn't necessarily justify the means, especially when people's souls are at stake.  I can't remember where it is in that book....but there is a place where Warren tells the reader to "pray this prayer" and then he announces them "SAVED."  

How does he know?  How many people  have been given false assurance because of that?  Don't get me wrong, Warren is not the only one guilty of such, but the audacity to write out a prayer, tell his readers to repeat it, and then pronounce them "SAVED" is ludicrous.  Salvation is reduced to some kind of magical chant....


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 24, 2009)

Tell me Banjo....what are the steps to salvation?

Here's the reference that you're talking about"

_"I invite you to bow your head and quietly whisper the prayer that will change your eternity: "Jesus, I believe in you and I receive you." Go ahead. 

If you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations! Welcome to the family of God."_

Please note the part in red.  He never claimed to "know" if they were sincere in that prayer.  

Ah taking partial quotes out of context.  The legalist's best friend.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 24, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Tell me Banjo....what are the steps to salvation?
> 
> Here's the reference that you're talking about"
> 
> ...



Hmmm...sounds like according to that prayer and according to Warren,  even the demons are welcomed to the family of God.  Because they have a sincere belief in God.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 24, 2009)

Where in the Bible does it say that you have to say a prayer to accept Christ as your Savior...

I have never found it, and I doubt anyone will...

It is one of the biggest lies, and one of the most hurtful to Christianity...

DB BB


----------



## Banjo (Feb 24, 2009)

> Ah taking partial quotes out of context. The legalist's best friend.




Okay...now you've done it.  I want my husband championing me at your next paintball battle....


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 24, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Hmmm...sounds like according to that prayer and according to Warren,  even the demons are welcomed to the family of God.  Because they have a sincere belief in God.



belief in God and accepting him as savior....two steps...not one.


I'm not sayin' it's the greatest prayer ever written.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 24, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Okay...now you've done it.  I want my husband championing me at your next paintball battle....



I'm just kidding with you Banjo.  You know I love ya!

Glad you can take a joke.  We don't agree on a lot.  But I'll be looking forward to hanging out with you for, oh, a few million years or so!


----------



## Banjo (Feb 24, 2009)

> Tell me Banjo....what are the steps to salvation?



God sends his Holy Spirit to the elect that were chosen by Him before the foundation of the world.  The Holy Spirit quickens that dead man's (or woman's, or child's) heart....spiritually awakening them.  That man, woman or child THEN can cry out in repentance unto the Lord.  That cry is a fruit of their regeneration.  

No prayer can save you....Not even one that was printed in a book which has sold a million copies....and it is wrong to promote such and then to tell the reader if they were "sincere" they are saved.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 24, 2009)

Oh yeh....I forgot.  You're one of the "we don't do anything" folks.


My bad.  Stupid question.

I can see why you would take offense to that idea if you follow that logic.


----------



## Banjo (Feb 24, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm just kidding with you Banjo.  You know I love ya!
> 
> Glad you can take a joke.  We don't agree on a lot.  But I'll be looking forward to hanging out with you for, oh, a few million years or so!



Huntin...I have ALWAYS enjoyed our discussions.  We do agree on the essentials.  It's too bad we all didn't meet on the gon forum BEFORE my family moved from Covington.  I would have loved to have your family, DBBB's family, rjcruiser's family and celticfisherman's family over for some fun and fellowship.

Now that would have been interesting....


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 24, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Now that would have been interesting....



to say the least....


Turkey season's 4 weeks away.  My offer still stands.  I'll take an oath that what Banjo says is right from now on.

Just get me on that farm for 3 days alone and I'll take care of that pesky turkey problem y'all are having.


----------



## Banjo (Feb 24, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Oh yeh....I forgot.  You're one of the "we don't do anything" folks.
> 
> 
> My bad.  Stupid question.
> ...



No....we are to evangelize because it is through the preached word that the Holy Spirit convicts.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 24, 2009)

Yeh, I mean we don't do anything in the salvation process.  That's all.  God does all the work.  I'm over-simplifying.  My point is that I can understand why you would take offense to Warren's quick little prayer in there regardless of whether they "meant it" or not.


----------



## Banjo (Feb 24, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> to say the least....
> 
> 
> Turkey season's 4 weeks away.  My offer still stands.  I'll take an oath that what Banjo says is right from now on.
> ...



My dad and I hunted pigs over the Christmas week.  One morning we were out in the woods and the turkeys started their yammering....It kept getting closer and closer to where we were....I am not kidding when I say we had a turkey parade that morning.  They filed by one behind another purring and talking like a bunch of women.  I could have thrown a rock and hit them.  I bet there were 40 or more hens.  

I would never ask you to compromise your convictions...the turkey problem is going to just have to remain.


----------



## Banjo (Feb 24, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Yeh, I mean we don't do anything in the salvation process.  That's all.  God does all the work.  I'm over-simplifying.  My point is that I can understand why you would take offense to Warren's quick little prayer in there regardless of whether they "meant it" or not.



It gives people a false assurance of salvation.  That is extremely dangerous.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 24, 2009)

Banjo....


Call me weak.  But I will compromise my convictions every day of the week if someone wants to put me on a turkey!


----------



## Banjo (Feb 24, 2009)

> I would have loved to have your family, DBBB's family, rjcruiser's family and celticfisherman's family over for some fun and fellowship.
> 
> Now that would have been interesting....



Oops....I forgot Big7's family.  They would have been welcomed also...


----------



## gtparts (Feb 24, 2009)

Suppose for the sake of discussion, everyone who was lost,  who read PDL and came to that prayer was among the elect and under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Having sincerely mouthed the prayer, would they then be saved?


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 24, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Huntin...I have ALWAYS enjoyed our discussions.  We do agree on the essentials.  It's too bad we all didn't meet on the gon forum BEFORE my family moved from Covington.  I would have loved to have your family, DBBB's family, rjcruiser's family and celticfisherman's family over for some fun and fellowship.
> 
> Now that would have been interesting....



Having had a LONNNNNNGGGGGGGG lunch with your husband today I can say it would be a blast! We should actually make a point of doing something together as a family outing.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 24, 2009)

Banjo said:


> It gives people a false assurance of salvation.  That is extremely dangerous.



Yep... 

A sense of being able to work your way there.


----------



## Big7 (Feb 24, 2009)

Re-direct: James 2:17 (ALL OF THEM)


International Standard Version (©2008)
In the same way, faith by itself, if it does not prove itself with actions, is dead.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
In the same way, faith by itself is dead if it doesn't cause you to do any good things.

King James Bible
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

American King James Version
Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

American Standard Version
Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

Bible in Basic English
Even so faith without works is dead.

Douay-Rheims Bible
So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 

Darby Bible Translation
So also faith, if it have not works, is dead by itself.

English Revised Version
Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

Webster's Bible Translation
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Weymouth New Testament
So also faith, if it is unaccompanied by obedience, has no life in it--so long as it stands alone.

World English Bible
Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead in itself.

Young's Literal Translation
so also the faith, if it may not have works, is dead by itself.


Geneva Study Bible
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

People's New Testament

2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works. Faith that has no power to bring one to obedience and to sway the life is as worthless as good wishes which end in words.

Is dead, being alone. It cannot stand alone and be of any avail. Only when it shows its power in works is it of the slightest value.

Wesley's Notes

2:17 So likewise that faith which hath not works is a mere dead, empty notion; of no more profit to him that hath it, than the bidding the naked be clothed is to him.

King James Translators' Notes

alone: Gr. by itself

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

17. faith . being alone-Alford joins "is dead in itself." So Bengel, "If the works which living faith produces have no existence, it is a proof that faith itself (literally, 'in respect to itself') has no existence; that is, that what one boasts of as faith, is dead." "Faith" is said to be "dead in itself," because when it has works it is alive, and it is discerned to be so, not in respect to its works, but in respect to itself. English Version, if retained, must not be understood to mean that faith can exist "alone" (that is, severed from works), but thus: Even so presumed faith, if it have not works, is dead, being by itself "alone," that is, severed from works of charity; just as the body would be "dead" if alone, that is, severed from the spirit (Jas 2:26). So Estius.

I like Rick Warren.

I can give you MANY MORE parallel verses that support
"faith without works - IS DEAD"


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 24, 2009)

We don't disagree Big7 on faith without works is dead. But I don't agree with his interpretation of it. At all.


----------



## Big7 (Feb 24, 2009)

BTW - gtparts makes some very good points HERE: 

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=3236870&postcount=7


----------



## Big7 (Feb 24, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> We don't disagree Big7 on faith without works is dead. But I don't agree with his interpretation of it. At all.



For an Evangelical, he is pretty close. IMO.
I think I may have disagreed more with the 
"snide, little comments" running along the bottom of the clip.

I agree with The Catholic Church's interpretation of
The book of James. For the record.

I can't make a full assessment of the teachings of Warren.
I have to say - I never even heard his name before the
Fulton County Courthouse massacre.

He seems like a good fellow to me.


----------



## Banjo (Feb 24, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Having had a LONNNNNNGGGGGGGG lunch with your husband today I can say it would be a blast! We should actually make a point of doing something together as a family outing.



I am glad that  you all were able to meet.  He enjoyed himself as well!  A family outing sounds fun!


----------



## letsgohuntin (Feb 24, 2009)

Wow! yet another beat down of a man's ministry that has saved tens of thousands of souls. I'm glad you guys have all it all down pat, God is going to be soooo proud of you! To bad Rick and Joel won't be there to personally congratulate you on a job well done.  

I guess even if they do squeeze into heaven they will be sitting on the back pew cutting up while you front row baptists are receiving your accolades for having all of the right answers.

And we wonder why people refuse to get involved in church... it's all because of the internal garbage like this that goes on.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 24, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I am glad that  you all were able to meet.  He enjoyed himself as well!  A family outing sounds fun!



I told Ms. Celtic that as soon as Tick was thru teething and we got a full night's sleep we were going to make it to that 9AM service... Goodness...

But we definitely got to get together.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 24, 2009)

letsgohuntin said:


> Wow! yet another beat down of a man's ministry that has saved tens of thousands of souls. I'm glad you guys have all it all down pat, God is going to be soooo proud of you! To bad Rick and Joel won't be there to personally congratulate you on a job well done.
> 
> I guess even if they do squeeze into heaven they will be sitting on the back pew cutting up while you front row baptists are receiving your accolades for having all of the right answers.
> 
> And we wonder why people refuse to get involved in church... it's all because of the internal garbage like this that goes on.



Some people on here just passed out when you lumped me in with the Baptists...

For the record... He's wrong. He's not teaching the Gospel and neither is Osteen. Compare them and their message to the bible and find what missing...


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 24, 2009)

letsgohuntin said:


> Wow! yet another beat down of a man's ministry that has saved tens of thousands of souls. I'm glad you guys have all it all down pat, God is going to be soooo proud of you! To bad Rick and Joel won't be there to personally congratulate you on a job well done.
> 
> I guess even if they do squeeze into heaven they will be sitting on the back pew cutting up while you front row baptists are receiving your accolades for having all of the right answers.
> 
> And we wonder why people refuse to get involved in church... it's all because of the internal garbage like this that goes on.


 

No man's ministry is responsible for the souls Saved... only God is responsible... 

DB BB


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 24, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> No man's ministry is responsible for the souls Saved... only God is responsible...
> 
> DB BB


----------



## Big7 (Feb 24, 2009)

letsgohuntin said:


> Wow! yet another beat down of a man's ministry that has saved tens of thousands of souls. I'm glad you guys have all it all down pat, God is going to be soooo proud of you! To bad Rick and Joel won't be there to personally congratulate you on a job well done.
> 
> I guess even if they do squeeze into heaven they will be sitting on the back pew cutting up while you front row baptists are receiving your accolades for having all of the right answers.
> 
> And we wonder why people refuse to get involved in church... it's all because of the internal garbage like this that goes on.



Not by Me!

Depends on the church I guess.
Again, Not by me!


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 24, 2009)

letsgohuntin said:


> And we wonder why people refuse to get involved in church... it's all because of the internal garbage like this that goes on.





People don't get involved in church because they are too lazy and don't want to be convicted of their sin.

The blame game is something that is taught by this generation.  It isn't my fault that I don't go to church


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 25, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> People don't get involved in church because they are too lazy and don't want to be convicted of their sin.
> 
> The blame game is something that is taught by this generation.  It isn't my fault that I don't go to church



No people don't get involved in Church because most these days that people see don't convict of sin or explain why it is necessary. Osteen and Warren. Why bother going if you take their lessons to the logical ends.


----------



## Banjo (Feb 25, 2009)

letsgohuntin said:


> Wow! yet another beat down of a man's ministry that has saved tens of thousands of souls. I'm glad you guys have all it all down pat, God is going to be soooo proud of you! To bad Rick and Joel won't be there to personally congratulate you on a job well done.
> 
> I guess even if they do squeeze into heaven they will be sitting on the back pew cutting up while you front row baptists are receiving your accolades for having all of the right answers.
> 
> And we wonder why people refuse to get involved in church... it's all because of the internal garbage like this that goes on.



It is much more loving just to agree with everyone.  Every man just does what is right in his own eyes?  If so, why do we even need a standard like the Bible?  

Ahhh....Relativism....A Seeker Church's second best friend...(that is for you, Huntin)


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 25, 2009)

Luke 15

 1Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him. 
 2Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, "This man receives sinners and eats with them." 

 3So He told them this parable, saying, 

 4"What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 

 5"When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.


----------



## Banjo (Feb 25, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Luke 15
> 
> 1Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him.
> 2Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, "This man receives sinners and eats with them."
> ...



Comparing Rick Warren to Jesus is apples to oranges.  When Jesus ate with the sinners do you think he told them that they could just focus on their "common ground."  

Do you think Jesus would have prayed at Obama's inauguration invoking the Father's blessing on a baby murderer?


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 25, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Ahhh....Relativism....A Seeker Church's second best friend...(that is for you, Huntin)



I totally agree with you Banjo.  Seeker churches are way off the reservation and should be stopped!












Can I go turkey hunting now?


----------



## Banjo (Feb 25, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I totally agree with you Banjo.  Seeker churches are way off the reservation and should be stopped!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No way, no how...I won't be responsible for you compromising your convictions....


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 25, 2009)

I'm not compromising....you've convinced me.




Now can I go?


----------



## gtparts (Feb 25, 2009)

Banjo said:


> It is much more loving just to agree with everyone.



Better jump back in the shower...you're dripping with sarcasm.   You know tough love requires us to love and disagree, and often.



Banjo said:


> Every man just does what is right in his own eyes?



Why the "?"? The Bible tells us that and our own lives confirm it, to our shame.



Banjo said:


> If so, why do we even need a standard like the Bible?



Because nothing else holds us to the perfect standard, Jesus Christ'



Banjo said:


> Ahhh....Relativism....A Seeker Church's second best friend...(that is for you, Huntin)



And what would be their best friend?  Since Jesus has established the quality of salvation, do you not trust Him to use the "Seeker Church" as He apparently uses your "Non-seeker Church"? 
I really have no issue with a church that is open to those seeking, as long as they are also taking Christ to the seekers outside of the building also. In truth, few find Jesus unless they are seeking. Love those divine appointments!

Peace.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 25, 2009)

Yea, these seeker churches seem he ll bent on letting the world hear about Jesus Christ.  Don't they know we good Christian's got standards.  We can't speak the name of Jesus in someone else's language, only in ours.  I mean, if we call Him Jesus, Matthew certainly must have.
Let's keep Jesus for ourselves, we're the only people who are worthy of His Gospel.  Oh! wait, we aren't actually worthy of it either.

Give either of the apostles an opportunity to pray at that event and I assure you that they would have been there.  What would they have prayed?  I haven't the foggiest.  But I bet they would have used the event as a way to carry Christ as far as they could.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not a Warren follower or advocate.  But sometimes we can all get a bit carried away in trying to decide what's "proper" and what's not.

I pray that some day all people of islam will come to accept Jesus just as we accept Him.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 25, 2009)

gtparts said:


> In truth, few find Jesus unless they are seeking. Love those divine appointments!



But, GT, Banjo will tell you that none of us seek....God seeks us or nothing happens.  

So you cannot seek Jesus and find him.  That's where the disconnect is.


BTW...she listed the seeker sensitive's BEST friend earlier in the thread...Pragmatism






















I totally agree with her....now can we go turkey hunting (Banjo, I hate your avatar.  You are an evil evil person)


----------



## gtparts (Feb 25, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> (Banjo, I hate your avatar.  You are an evil evil person)



That's O.K. I can even the score  for you!


----------



## Banjo (Feb 25, 2009)

> I totally agree with her....now can we go turkey hunting (Banjo, I hate your avatar. You are an evil evil person)
> ____________


----------



## letsgohuntin (Feb 26, 2009)

Sooo, if I said that Billy Graham's  sermons bored me to tears I would be tarred and feathered I guess  

I won't argue with all of the above posts because it's basically useless... but it is so amazing to me how judgmental we can all be just because someone has a different style of ministry.  You guys are basically saying that all of these congregations may as well stay in bed Sunday mornings because they are wasting their time. I just can't comprehend what y'all are thinking??????  

Have you ever wondered why their ministry's are so obviously well blessed by God...perhaps he _is_ pleased ?? 

Sorry if I came across harsh in my last post, but I was some what insulted because I am a member of a Purpose Driven church here in Albany... and believe me most of you guys do not have a clue about what you are posting. No, it's not your granny's style of Gospel we were all raised on, but never the less it is bible based Gospel...like it or not.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 26, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> ....but how long do you wait?  When do you confront someone with the sin in their life?



Maybe you don't.  Maybe you show them Christ and maybe he does it?


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 26, 2009)

What about the accountability we are supposed to hold each other too. That is one of the reasons for a congregation.


----------



## leroy (Feb 26, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Maybe you don't.  Maybe you show them Christ and maybe he does it?



Sounds like it might work.


----------



## leroy (Feb 26, 2009)

for some on here when someone in your church ask Jesus to be their saviour through a "simple prayer" they are not saved by your standards? do you administer a test, lie detector?


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 26, 2009)

leroy said:


> for some on here when someone in your church ask Jesus to be their saviour through a "simple prayer" they are not saved by your standards? do you administer a test, lie detector?




Could you help me by letting me know where the scripture is that speaks of that "simple prayer" for salvation?
Thanks


----------



## leroy (Feb 26, 2009)

To me asking Jesus to be my saviour, to come into my heart, my life was simple the hard part came after that. Does it tell you directly in the scriptures "simple prayer", no but it can be put into a simple prayer. Only that person knows if there heart is true. It only starts with a simple prayer and grows from there.


----------



## gtparts (Feb 27, 2009)

If anyones  idea of "salvation" is a "complex" prayer followed by a long "to do" list, please post here stating as much, so I can avoid those churches. 

Works are for sanctification, according to scripture, as I understand it. This makes discipleship absolutely essential to setting converts to Christ on a path of service. If it ain't happening, there can be but two conclusions: they weren't taught or they weren't saved, IMHO.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 27, 2009)

Here's a question that occurred to me on the way to work this morning...

If, as some have said, church (and more specifically Sunday Service) is for the "equipping of the saints", then what are you equipping them for?  I can only assume that since you argue we shouldn't just be welcoming the "world" into our sanctuaries, you think we should be equipping saints to go out into the world and preach the gospel.

But, if that's the case, then WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU PREACH SIN, DEPREVAVITY AND SALVATION EVERY SUNDAY?  You're preaching to the choir aren't you?  

Don't tell me it's because you're teaching the saints what to say.  Some have said over and over that we need to point out the sin in the lives of those there; that we need to preach salvation every sunday to those who are there.

You following me?  Either you're preaching to the lost on Sunday (in which case you have to reach out to the lost and get them there, i.e. "seek the lost"), or you're equipping the saints (in which case, you don't need to preach salvation to the saved.).


----------



## Banjo (Feb 27, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Here's a question that occurred to me on the way to work this morning...
> 
> If, as some have said, church (and more specifically Sunday Service) is for the "equipping of the saints", then what are you equipping them for?  I can only assume that since you argue we shouldn't just be welcoming the "world" into our sanctuaries, you think we should be equipping saints to go out into the world and preach the gospel.
> 
> But, if that's the case, then WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU PREACH SIN, DEPREVAVITY AND SALVATION EVERY SUNDAY?



Who does that? 

When the text brings it up...the pastor addresses it.  Expositional preaching addresses many things...The Bible is much richer than any sermon kit a pastor can purchase online.....even if it is complete with power point presentations, scripts, and praise band sheetmusic .


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 27, 2009)

But answer the premise of the question Banjo.  You are the one who said "to equip the saints".  I'm just curious.

RJ asked "when do we point out the sin" or something to that effect.  Statements like that lead me to believe that there are those who think we should preach the gospel message every sunday.  That translates into Jesus, crucifiction, salvation, sin, etc.  I'm not saying that's wrong.  I'm just curious how those who say we shouldn't reach out to bring folks in would address that.

It's really just a question.  I'm curious.



BTW....you better watch out, RJ's gonna come after ya on that expositional preaching thing.


----------



## gtparts (Feb 27, 2009)

Church is a training hospital for souls. Anything less is short of what Jesus had in mind.

Somehow, I think the words at the base of the Statue of Liberty were plucked (with some modification) from Scripture.

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" 

Peace.


----------



## Banjo (Feb 27, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> But answer the premise of the question Banjo.  You are the one who said "to equip the saints".  I'm just curious.
> 
> RJ asked "when do we point out the sin" or something to that effect.  Statements like that lead me to believe that there are those who think we should preach the gospel message every sunday.  That translates into Jesus, crucifiction, salvation, sin, etc.  I'm not saying that's wrong.  I'm just curious how those who say we shouldn't reach out to bring folks in would address that.
> 
> ...



When the Bible is expositionally preached, all of the above can be addressed in the sermon.

Have you ever sat under expositional preaching...where the pastor took a book from the Bible and preached through it verse by verse?  It makes the Bible as a whole understandable; it provides the verses in context.  It is in-depth teaching.  All the topics necessary for a Godly life are presented because the Bible coupled with God's Spirit gives us everything we need.

When you design your Lord's Day sermons to draw a crowd of lost people, is it worship?  Can lost people worship God?  Our worship should be God-centered, not man-centered.  Preaching expositionally is God-centered, and man greatly benefits from it.  

We should reach out and bring folks in.  We should be ready to invite people to church; we should have them in our homes and provide them with Christian hospitality.  This is something lacking in today's churches as well.  

How many of you have ever been invited to your pastor's (or elder's/deacon's) homes for a meal.  How can a pastor/elder/deacon effectively minister to people he doesn't know personally?


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 27, 2009)

I actually have....at my current, seeker friendly, drum beatin' church!

We recently spent six weeks going through a large portion of a book of the Bible and it was very interesting.

I'm not saying that the sermons should be designed to draw a crowd.  What I'm saying is that I get the impression that you guys feel like reaching out to the lost in our community is just taboo.  Why can't we minister to their needs AND show them Christ through the gospel?  

Why do you guys assume those are mutually exclusive?  That's what bugs me about all the criticism.  I actually don't even think we refer to seeker sensitive at our church anymore because of the stigma that is now attached to it.  But it doesn't change the philosophy of ministering to the community in an effort to show them Christ.

I'll reveal a little of what I'm talking about.

We are now, currently, in the process of establishing the following ministries:

A reduced cost health clinic staffed by volunteer Christian doctors and nurses.

A counseling center to fill a HUGE hole in our county where there are literally no counseling resources.

A ministry for those who are victims of abuse or or just down on their luck.

The FIRST school in the history of Ethiopia to have the word Christian in its name (islam educates the kids there).

Those are just the things we are ramping up.  That doesn't include what we're currently doing.  All of them are designed to meet a need in our hurting community.  In the process of the ministries, the gospel is not the first thing presented.  The need is met and then the gospel is presented.  

So I ask again, why can we not have it both ways?  That, is what being sensitive to seekers is about.  It is not meeting the need to the detriment of the gospel.  It is meeting the need in an effort to show Christ to the world and spread his gospel.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 27, 2009)

Trust me Banjo....my pastor probably wishes he DIDN'T know me as well as he does!

and yes, we've eaten many meals together.  We've cried together.  We've rejoiced together.  He and the elders have stood in our living room as a unit and prayed protection over our home and our family before.

Yeh, they KNOW me. 


Like I said, they probably wish they didn't know me as well as they do!


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 27, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I actually have....at my current, seeker friendly, drum beatin' church!
> 
> We recently spent six weeks going through a large portion of a book of the Bible and it was very interesting.
> 
> ...



Just a question... Why establish a reduced cost clinic in Covington (I am guessing that is where it will be just by your location though) when there is already one that needs as much help as it can get. Trinity PCA and Potter's House have one established.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 27, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Trust me Banjo....my pastor probably wishes he DIDN'T know me as well as he does!
> 
> and yes, we've eaten many meals together.  We've cried together.  We've rejoiced together.  He and the elders have stood in our living room as a unit and prayed protection over our home and our family before.
> 
> ...



Personally I see it like this. You have a very good church. What most of us are talking about and concerned with in the seeker sensitive movement is nowhere near what you have. You may be the exception to the rule or rather our experiences just may be with a group of churches that are just not worthy of the title.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 27, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Just a question... Why establish a reduced cost clinic in Covington (I am guessing that is where it will be just by your location though) when there is already one that needs as much help as it can get. Trinity PCA and Potter's House have one established.



I honestly can't remember the reasons.  The guy who's leading the effort spoke with them and I think we tried to partner with them, but it didn't work out for one reason or another.  I don't think it was "bad blood" (no pun intended) or anything.  Either they weren't willing or we couldn't work out the details.  I can't recall.

Believe me....there is need for another.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 27, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I honestly can't remember the reasons.  The guy who's leading the effort spoke with them and I think we tried to partner with them, but it didn't work out for one reason or another.  I don't think it was "bad blood" (no pun intended) or anything.  Either they weren't willing or we couldn't work out the details.  I can't recall.
> 
> Believe me....there is need for another.



What church do you attend then? Just curious. We are members at Trinity.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 27, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> But answer the premise of the question Banjo.  You are the one who said "to equip the saints".  I'm just curious.
> 
> RJ asked "when do we point out the sin" or something to that effect.  Statements like that lead me to believe that there are those who think we should preach the gospel message every sunday.  That translates into Jesus, crucifiction, salvation, sin, etc.  I'm not saying that's wrong.  I'm just curious how those who say we shouldn't reach out to bring folks in would address that.
> 
> ...



Boy...I'm busy at work (I know...crazy) and all of the sudden I'm getting called out.

Anyways...to answer your question, I don't think that the gospel message should be preached every sunday.  Frankly, I don't really care for the fact that the last 5 minutes of every sermon is an altar call.  But...it is more of a preference issue that my family deals with so that we can here an expository sermon every Sunday.

I think Banjo hit the nail on the head.  

I grew up at a church where I never saw an altar call, never heard the gospel message (unless the text showed it), expository preaching sunday after sunday....and the church flourished....met the needs of the people....but more importantly, focused on God rather than man.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 27, 2009)

...and I'm glad that model worked for your church.  But that mean it's a biblical requirement to never have an alter call?  Always preach expositionally?  

I wasn't tryin'to call ya out man.  I was just putting your quote and Banjo's together and they didn't pan out for me.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 27, 2009)

Celt, we're at Crosspointe.  I sent the guy who's leading it an email and asked him to remind me what the deal was.  I know he spoke with the folks at that clinic.  I just can't recall why we decided not to partner with.  I'll let ya know.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 27, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Celt, we're at Crosspointe.  I sent the guy who's leading it an email and asked him to remind me what the deal was.  I know he spoke with the folks at that clinic.  I just can't recall why we decided not to partner with.  I'll let ya know.



I was just curious.


----------



## letsgohuntin (Feb 28, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Personally I see it like this. You have a very good church. What most of us are talking about and concerned with in the seeker sensitive movement is nowhere near what you have. You may be the exception to the rule or rather our experiences just may be with a group of churches that are just not worthy of the title.



I'm just curious here... exactly what kind of personal experiences have you had with seeker churches to draw such a conclusion?


----------

