# coyowolf?



## livinoutdoors

Or regular coyote.


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## mr otter

That's a coyote.  Contrary to what you hear, coyotes and wolves do not interbreed.  And there are no wolves in georgia.


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## EAGLE EYE 444

You've got a great photo that is really detailed as well.  Glad to see that you are also using WildGame Cameras too because that is all that I use and I love them.  It is by far the best deal for the money for me and I have been using them for 6 years now.  

Is that possibly a Blade X6 model?


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## NCHillbilly

mr otter said:


> That's a coyote.  Contrary to what you hear, coyotes and wolves do not interbreed.  And there are no wolves in georgia.




Wolves and coyotes DEFINITELY interbreed, and most eastern coyotes are a mix. This is not me saying it, it's documented by scientific research and DNA testing. Why do all the DNA studies by scientists show that eastern coyotes almost all are carrying wolf DNA? It has been proven several times. Do a little studying. There are plenty of published peer-reviewed scientific studies out there.

 Every study I'm aware of has shown the same results, the presence of wolf DNA in a large percentage of the "coyotes" from various eastern states. 

It is also one of the major problems with the red wolf re-introduction project in eastern NC. They keep hybridizing with yotes. Not once or twice, it happens commonly.  This is also scientifically documented in spades. 

Eastern coyotes are not the same critter as the western ones, by a long shot. They do not look alike or act alike.


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## lagrangedave

I'll be willing to bet that Mr Otter works for DNR....................red wolf hybrid........


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## livinoutdoors

Eagle eye not sure what series camera but works great. Nc hillbilly totally agree bout eastern yotes and red wolves. This fella is just over the state line near lake hartwell. I know its hard to judge size without a reference but this thing is huuuge against a known to me backdrop


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## NCHillbilly

livinoutdoors said:


> Eagle eye not sure what series camera but works great. Nc hillbilly totally agree bout eastern yotes and red wolves. This fella is just over the state line near lake hartwell. I know its hard to judge size without a reference but this thing is huuuge against a known to me backdrop



Even without reams of scientific evidence to back up wolf DNA in eastern yotes, common sense will show you that you don't see pure coyotes out west that weigh 35-50 lbs,  running in packs, with five different color variations in the pack. I have seen with my own eyes "yotes" on the scales here in my area that went over 50. I killed a dark red-colored female a few weeks ago that went 42 on a digital scale. Some areas in the east have much bigger or smaller yotes than others on average, probably based on how pure the coyote DNA is in that area.

Also, reading historical accounts of wolves in the southeast written two-three hundred years ago pretty much shows one type of wolf that was an animal pretty much identical to our present eastern "coyotes."


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## EAGLE EYE 444

livinoutdoors said:


> Eagle eye not sure what series camera but works great. Nc hillbilly totally agree bout eastern yotes and red wolves. This fella is just over the state line near lake hartwell. I know its hard to judge size without a reference but this thing is huge against a known to me backdrop



I received your p/m reply.  I included the link from 4 years ago that this type thing happened, and back then, I found all sorts of information in regards to the Red Wolf etc along with explorer William Bartram in his travels back about 200-250 years ago.  The information was surely eye-opening for me. 

NCHillbilly is correct in all of his details in regards to those facts as I read lots of the findings from back then up until the current day.  The details are very explicit that there is still a DNA presence of the Red Wolf in today's coyotes here in Georgia.  

I will say this, the black coyote and all of the photos that started the discussion about me having trapped a Red Wolf was scary back then because initially I was advised to take that information down since the Red Wolf is a protected species etc and I might go to jail in the process.   However, I left the story and photos intact because the remains of that coyote had already been destroyed before I posted the original story and photos.  There was a Game Warden and also a Sheriff's deputy present when this coyote was shown and officially weighed as well. 

This is the link for those that have not seen it before: 

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=688757&highlight=black+coyote




The fact is, we don't always know just what is roaming our woods from day to day.


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## Nicodemus

Always an interesting subject.

Nice brush wolf in the above picture.


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## P6smSKC

I saw one a few weeks ago while hunting in my stand. It looked to be as big or bigger than a German shepherd. It came trotting in solo and was headed right to my tree. When it was about 50 yards away I made a little squeaking noise with my mouth in hopes it would stop. That backfired and that thing was turned around and running away faster than I would have imagined. By the time I found a gap in the thick brush to squeeze off a shot he must have been over 100 yards away and that combined with my rushed shot while it was running ended in a miss. Probably bad shooting more than anything on my part. I was hoping to take that guy out of my favorite deer hunting spot. Either way, it was BIG. I hear them all the time on evening hunts just before or right at dark. They always sound like they are so close but I know that can be deceptive. I do not like those guys though


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## Josey

I've seen one that must have been at least 80 lb.  It moved like a wolf, too.

The one in the picture above sure is a pretty one.  But it has the coyote look to it, more than the wolf look.


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## mr otter

So riddle me this, I have guided and worked in many western states for years and the coyotes do not breed with the wolves, the wolves kill the yotes not mate with them.  Why are not all western coyotes some kind of coy wolf hybrid?


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## mr otter

I have trapped 1000's of yotes and have never seen a 50+ lb yote, kinda like that black panther...don't believe everything you read on the internet...please pm me a pic of the wolf.


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## lagrangedave

They ain't really hybrids, they red wolves.................


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## lagrangedave

I've come face to face with a 100+ pound red wolf......................you need to get out more..................


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## lagrangedave

10 coyotes a year is a good year........................are you over a hundred years old?


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## mr otter

I have caught 10 yotes in a day... maybe You should get out more


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## Nicodemus

This is one I took a picture of here in Southwest Georgia. What is it?


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## mr otter

Coyote.  I have many long lining friends who trapped heavily in the 1970's and didn't catch any yotes until the late 70's.  These are guys that caught hundreds of fox and Coon.  Coyotes came up from Mexico about that time, so not sure how they bred with wolves 200+ years ago...I could be wrong.


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## Nicodemus

mr otter said:


> Coyote.  I have many long lining friends who trapped heavily in the 1970's and didn't catch any yotes until the late 70's.  These are guys that caught hundreds of fox and Coon.  Coyotes came up from Mexico about that time, so not sure how they bred with wolves 200+ years ago...I could be wrong.




Why do you say this is a coyote? What gives it away?


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## mr otter

The head and the ears, guided in Idaho where we saw plenary of wolves.  Much more of a block head on a wolf.


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## mr otter

lagrangedave said:


> I've come face to face with a 100+ pound red wolf......................you need to get out more..................



Really? 100lbs?


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## Nicodemus

mr otter said:


> The head and the ears, guided in Idaho where we saw plenary of wolves.  Much more of a block head on a wolf.




Proof positive just how hard it is to tell the difference, other than body size, and sometimes coloration. 

Would you agree with this? Would any other Forum members agree with this?


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## lagrangedave

Yes really


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## mr otter

I will agree with that, body size is the main difference, but believe me when you see a wolf in a snare you know it's a wolf.  No question.  However when I have killed blond color phase black bear, they aren't grizzly bear/ black bear hybrids, they are color phase black bear.  Why are there no grizzly black bears?  Because these different species do not interbreed.


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## mr otter

lagrangedave said:


> Yes really



No offense, but I gotta see it on the scale to believe it.  Tell you what if you bring me one I will eat it!


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## Nicodemus

mr otter said:


> I will agree with that, body size is the main difference, but believe me when you see a wolf in a snare you know it's a wolf.  No question.  However when I have killed blond color phase black bear, they aren't grizzly bear/ black bear hybrids, they are color phase black bear.  Why are there no grizzly black bears?  Because these different species do not interbreed.





The one in the picture I posted is a red wolf, I`m sure.


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## lagrangedave

Sharpen your knives.................


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## NE GA Pappy

Nicodemus said:


> Proof positive just how hard it is to tell the difference, other than body size, and sometimes coloration.
> 
> Would you agree with this? Would any other Forum members agree with this?



I haven't seen enuff of them in the wild to say what that is Nic.  Just on a guess and whim, I would say yote, cause they are more of them in our area of the state, and I don't know how many wolves may be in the state.

But, knowing Nic, I bet I am about to learn something about canines.


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## lagrangedave

It don't taste like chicken.


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## mr otter

I've eaten them before and I can assure you they don't taste like chicken.  My knife is always sharp...


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## Nicodemus

Now, Mr. Otter, are you sure that is a coyote in my picture and not a red wolf?


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## mr otter

Yes


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## lagrangedave

No offense Mr. Otter, just agree to disagree...............


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## Nicodemus

mr otter said:


> Yes




It`s not. I assure you that is a red wolf.


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## mr otter

Like Dave said, guess we can agree to disagree...


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## mr otter

Just curious Nic, have you ever seen an actual wolf in the wild?


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## Nicodemus

mr otter said:


> Like Dave said, guess we can agree to disagree...





Like I said, it`s hard to tell the difference, but this one is part of the red wolf breeding program. It and a couple more pure blood red wolves are at The Parks At Chehaw in Albany, where I got the picture of this one. 

I see them on a regular basis, and I`m also in the woods nearly everyday, and see what we have around here. I do a lot of study on them, I can`t tell the difference between them.


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## Nicodemus

mr otter said:


> Just curious Nic, have you ever seen an actual wolf in the wild?





If you`re talking about a gray or timber wolf, no.


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## NE GA Pappy

Lots of people know lots of stuff that just ain't so.


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## NE GA Pappy

I probably know as much or more that ain't so than most


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## tree cutter 08

We have some big yotes in the mountains. For every 10 to 15 30 lb yotes you kill you'll kill a 50 lb'der. I've seen 3 times packs of 6 or more yotes. One night there was close to a dozen in a pack.


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## Capt Quirk

Pretty puppy!


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## mr otter

Hmmm...so are they breeding red wolves and coyotes at Chehaw?


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## Nicodemus

mr otter said:


> Hmmm...so are they breeding red wolves and coyotes at Chehaw?





No, they are breeding pure blood red wolves at Chehaw. There was a litter of cubs born this year. 

Hard to tell the difference between them and a coyote, ain`t it?


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## mr otter

Guess I better make a field trip to the park.  But I will say that I can't see Idaho timber wolves breeding with western coyotes.


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## thc_clubPres

good article


https://www.cuteness.com/article/difference-between-gray-timber-wolves


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## Nicodemus

mr otter said:


> Guess I better make a field trip to the park.  But I will say that I can't see Idaho timber wolves breeding with western coyotes.





In all the threads on this subject here, nothing to my knowledge has ever been said about Idaho wolves breeding with western coyotes. I don`t ever recall seeing any black coyotes being seen or killed out west either, and their size isn`t like what we have here, nor the variety of colors that we have here. Even the habits are different.

Read up on them, do some research, and read the works of William Bartram. It is an interesting study.


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## NE GA Pappy

is there a way to tell the difference in the field? How would I know if I am killing a yote, which would be legal, or a red wolf, being illegal?

could it be trappers are killing red wolves without knowing it?


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## mr otter

I have read the study and caught several different color phases of western coyotes.  Haven't found the western yotes much different to catch than the easterns.  This is why I am skeptical about the coyote/ wolf interbreeding issue.


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## Nicodemus

NE GA Pappy said:


> is there a way to tell the difference in the field? How would I know if I am killing a yote, which would be legal, or a red wolf, being illegal?
> 
> could it be trappers are killing red wolves without knowing it?





I can`t tell the difference, Pap, but I think what we have here is more red wolf than coyote or anything else. Jay (Redneckbillcollector) hung the name "brush wolves" on them, and the name fits. It appears that DNA samples have proven they are not coyotes, but a mix.


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## rwh

there is a documentary on the coy wolf from a few years back that shows them living in big cities.  there is tons of evidence supporting their existence. i saw one in the middle of columbus about 3 years ago.  way too big to be a coyote.


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## kmckinnie

Thanks for sharing the pic.


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## NE GA Pappy

nice pics OP and Nic

thanks for sharing them.


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## livinoutdoors

It was my pleasure to share a great picture! Thank yall for the great info and discussion.  Think im gonna start usin that "brush wolves" label.  The ones around my place are big, run in packs, n carry on all night some times.


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## Browning Slayer

mr otter said:


> Guess I better make a field trip to the park.  But I will say that I can't see Idaho timber wolves breeding with western coyotes.



Well, Great Lake region wolves have bred with Yotes and it's well documented. Proven through DNA and bone studies. And those Hybrids have been making their way south via the Appalachian Mtns. You can tell yourself whatever you want but the science isn't lying. I do know the yotes in the west are a lot different in size compared to the ones we have here. I've killed them.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...ds-coyotes-wolf-virginia-dna-animals-science/

http://www.inquisitr.com/2548350/co...wolves-and-making-wolf-hybrids-videos-photos/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coywolf


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## mr otter

Based on what has happened out west if we start calling them wolves there will quickly be a move to label them as a "protected" species.  Everyone loves wolves, but hates those dirty yotes.


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## NE GA Pappy

mr otter said:


> Based on what has happened out west if we start calling them wolves there will quickly be a move to label them as a "protected" species.  Everyone loves wolves, but hates those dirty yotes.



Don't sound to me like that is the issue.  More to the issue is that people are killing a protect species without knowing it, and there is not a way to tell what you are killing without a DNA test sounds like to me.


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## NCHillbilly

mr otter said:


> I have read the study and caught several different color phases of western coyotes.  Haven't found the western yotes much different to catch than the easterns.  This is why I am skeptical about the coyote/ wolf interbreeding issue.



So, you are saying that you don't believe the results of multiple DNA tests that show a large percentage of eastern yotes carrying wolf DNA? Or the scientifically confirmed rampant wolf/coyote hybridization that has fouled up the red wolf reintroduction program in eastern NC to the point that it will probably be scrapped? The "typical" or average eastern "coyote" genome according to the latest widespread DNA tests seems to be about 25%-30% wolf, 60-70% coyote, and 5-10% dog DNA.

I think you are confusing timber wolves with red/brush/Florida wolves. Timber wolves were probably only present in the southeast in the Appalachians. The last known one in my county was killed about 1920. There was another species of wolf common in the south that was almost identical to our modern eastern yote.

The WNC nature center about 25 miles from here breeds red wolves for the re-introduction programs. I have spent hours and hours watching them. I see wild "yotes" here that look identical to me to the red wolves in the nature center. 

They re-introduced red wolves here in the Smoky Mountains, and supposedly rounded them all back up several years later. After that time, huge multi-colored yotes became common here. I hear some howling every night that don't sound a thing like the typical coyote. They have a low-pitched, drawn-out wolf howl. And I can assure you, 50lb yotes are not that uncommon here in the southern Appalachians.

Here are some certified full-blooded red wolves in the captive breeding program at the WNC Nature Center. The folks there who breed them also say that the biggest problem for red wolves is interbreeding with coyotes, and trying to find animals that don't have coyote DNA in them. I guess they don't know what they're talking about, either:


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## HermanMerman

Slightly off topic, but figured I would throw a recommendation out there. Coyote America by Dan Flores is a book that should help shed some light on the overall topic of coyotes and their history for anyone that is interested.


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## Browning Slayer

mr otter said:


> Based on what has happened out west if we start calling them wolves there will quickly be a move to label them as a "protected" species.  Everyone loves wolves, but hates those dirty yotes.



And not everyone loves wolves.. The folks in the city sipping on latte's enjoy seeing their pictures. Very few have ever seen one in the wild and the ones that have, they usually see them in the winter at Yellowstone while on a tour. Federal judges reinstated protections in the last six months, which bar further hunting and trapping in Wyoming, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan as a result of lawsuits by wildlife advocates (tree huggers). However, wolf hunts in Idaho and Montana continue.

Just a couple years ago, 2 guys shot a wolf (while yote hunting) in southern Utah. She had traveled from Wyoming to Arizona (Grand Canyon) and made her way back into southern Utah before getting shot. She was a gray wolf and the liberals were having a had day over it. Heck, Utah offers $50 a head for any dead yote.

Wolves, coyotes, and dogs are closely related and capable of interbreeding to produce viable, fertile offspring: wolfdogs, coywolves, and coydogs.


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## Nicodemus

One of the finest looking ones I`ve ever seen was a few weeks ago while I was on the same stand I killed the buck in my avatar on. Comparing it in size to my bird dog, it was maybe around 60 pounds, and while not jet black, it was really dark, the darkest I`ve ever personally seen. Prime fur and yellow eyes that stood out against the dark coloration. We had an interesting staredown for a about 30 seconds or so.


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## NCHillbilly

NE GA Pappy said:


> is there a way to tell the difference in the field? How would I know if I am killing a yote, which would be legal, or a red wolf, being illegal?
> 
> could it be trappers are killing red wolves without knowing it?



The only place where there is a protected known wild population of red wolves is on and around the Alligator River wildlife refuge in eastern NC. They have instituted some coyote hunting restrictions on a couple counties down there. Any critter outside that area would be considered a coyote or an unprotected hybrid.


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## NE GA Pappy

have they not released any in Georgia from the breeding program at Cheraw?  Those things look like they could be cheekun killers of the highest caliber


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## Nicodemus

NE GA Pappy said:


> have they not released any in Georgia from the breeding program at Cheraw?  Those things look like they could be cheekun killers of the highest caliber





Not yet. Right now they want to make sure to get more of the pure breed red wolves in the population, I think.


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## NCHillbilly

I think they're about to scrap the NC program. Too much interbreeding with yotes, and too many landowners ill over the takeover and control of what they do on their own place.


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## mr otter

So the consensus is that there are no pure blooded coyotes any more and they are all some kind of wolf hybrid?


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## Nicodemus

mr otter said:


> So the consensus is that there are no pure blooded coyotes any more and they are all some kind of wolf hybrid?




Down here in this part of the country and in the east, yes. 

In my opinion and the opinion of a few others. For whatever that`s worth.


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## 95g atl

mr otter said:


> So the consensus is that there are no pure blooded coyotes any more and they are all some kind of wolf hybrid?



Correct.  Being out west for years, the true coyote looks much different than the breed out here.  And the size different is amazing.  Out west, they are SMALL.  Some are barely larger than a domestic cat....15-35 lbs are the range of the majority.  Now here in the south, there are some BIG coyote/wolf/mix, whatever you call them.  Many are well in excess of 35 lbs....and heck, they look more "wolf like".    

Oh, one thing comes to mind, let's not forget about the likely "domestic" dog being mixed in with many of these species.

To the others, YES, I have read about the DNA being tested and having a mixture of wolf and domestic.

Just my humble 2 cents..............


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## NCHillbilly

mr otter said:


> So the consensus is that there are no pure blooded coyotes any more and they are all some kind of wolf hybrid?



In the eastern US, pretty much exactly that, according to every DNA test study done so far. I have read where many scientists are of the opinion that the eastern coyote should be named and described scientifically as a unique species separate from western coyotes and/or wolves. 

Every study done so far comes up with something like these as a conclusion in its summation:



> Genetic swapping
> What creature are we talking about? In the last century, a predator – I prefer the name “eastern coyote” – has colonized the forests of eastern North America, from Florida to Labrador.
> New genetic tests show that all eastern coyotes are actually a mix of three species: coyote, wolf and dog. The percentages vary, dependent upon exactly which test is applied and the geographic location of the canine.





> I do not believe it is accurate to call them coyotes when their DNA (throughout eastern North America) is composed of western coyote, eastern wolf, gray wolf, and dog genes.





> March 16, 2016. Updated (bottom) May 12: my co-authored paper on changing the species name of ‘eastern coyote’ to coywolf (common name), Canis oriens (scientific name), was accepted and published:
> Way, J.G. and Lynn, W.S. 2016. Northeastern coyote/coywolf taxonomy and admixture: A meta-analysis. Canid Biology & Conservation 19(1): 1-7. URL: http://canids.org/CBC/19/Northeastern_coyote_taxonomy.pdf.CensoredThis paper summarizes the literature and suggests that not only should ‘coyotes’ in the Northeast be called coywolves, but that they warrant new species status, Canis oriens – meaning eastern canid!






> It was supported by the first genetic studies of eastern coyotes, which found substantial wolf DNA.
> It helped explain why eastern coyotes are not only larger than their western cousins, they also have larger, stronger jaws and exhibit pack-like behavior more akin to wolves than western coyotes, which hunt mostly as individuals.
> 
> Even their nightly songs, experts belief, is a hybrid of coyote and wolf, with a deep-pitched, wolf-like howl quickly followed by the higher-pitched yips of western coyotes.
> Hybridization is generally considered harmful to a species because the offspring are often less likely to survive. But in the case of eastern coyotes, the study’s authors believe the genetic contributions of both wolves and domestic dogs has been highly beneficial.
> Unlike western coyotes, which mostly hunt small mammals and ground-nesting birds in open terrain, eastern coyotes are also well suited to hunting larger prey like deer in the East’s dense forests. That, the study’s authors believe, reflects their wolf heritage.
> But unlike wolves, which usually avoid people, eastern coyotes are remarkably tolerant of humans and can be found in and along the edges of even the East’s largest cities, with coyotes now regularly spotted in such unlikely locales as New York’s Central Park. Their adaptability in a human-dominated landscape, the study’s authors theorize, is most likely due to their domestic dog heritage.
> _One of the study’s most fascinating findings is that the genetic make-up of eastern coyotes can vary in response to the available habitat and food sources. In areas where deer are widely available, for example, eastern coyotes are genetically more wolf-like, which, the study found, suggests “natural selection for wolf-like traits may result in local adaptation at a fine geographic scale.”
> That is a big reason why many scientists, including the study’s co-author, Dr. Roland Kays, formerly of the New York State Museum in Albany, believe eastern coyotes are still literally evolving before our eyes.
> _



I could go on for several more pages. 




Out west, no. Coyotes are still coyotes.



These don't look like the same critter to me:


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## Philbow

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/28/science/red-eastern-gray-wolves.html?_r=0


And the red wolf (?) they have been reintroducing seems to be 75% coyote 25 % grey wolf. I have not seen any DNA studies showing southern coyotes having significant grey wolf genes. Almost all the DNA studies have been from Virginia North.
 As to southern coyotes being larger than their western cousins increased food supply and evolution toward larger animals is probably a more important factor than the possibility of wolf genes. If you take Georgia coastal island deer and stock them in the Flint River basin in a few years the descendants will be larger than the same generation still on the island.


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## NCHillbilly

For comparison, here are photos of adult wolves of three native eastern wolf species:

Eastern timber/gray wolf,  _Canis lycaon,_native to most of the eastern US, down the Appalachians into the southeast. Compare this to the second pic I posted in my last post above:



and the red wolf, _Canis rufus,_ native to most of the southeast:



And the only known existing photos of the _supposedly_ now-extinct Florida black wolf, _Canis rufus niger or Canis lupus floridanus_, which was native to most of the deep south:





The Florida black wolf has supposedly not been seen since 1931, but it looks pretty familiar, doesn't it? In that second pic, sure looks like a white spot on the chest, too?




Here is a true western coyote, _Canis latrans:
_



and a big northwestern timber/gray wolf, _Canis lupus occidentalis _(what most folks think of as a "wolf",) which was never native to the eastern US:


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## rydert

this is a very informative thread....thanks for posting.


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## Browning Slayer

NCHillbilly said:


> For comparison, here are photos of adult wolves of three native eastern wolf species:
> 
> Eastern timber/gray wolf,  _Canis lycaon,_native to most of the eastern US, down the Appalachians into the southeast. Compare this to the second pic I posted in my last post above:
> 
> View attachment 894407
> 
> and the red wolf, _Canis rufus,_ native to most of the southeast:
> 
> View attachment 894408
> 
> And the only known existing photos of the _supposedly_ now-extinct Florida black wolf, _Canis rufus niger or Canis lupus floridanus_, which was native to most of the deep south:
> 
> View attachment 894409
> 
> View attachment 894411
> 
> The Florida black wolf has supposedly not been seen since 1931, but it looks pretty familiar, doesn't it? In that second pic, sure looks like a white spot on the chest, too?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a true western coyote, _Canis latrans:
> _
> 
> View attachment 894410
> 
> and a big northwestern timber/gray wolf, _Canis lupus occidentalis _(what most folks think of as a "wolf",) which was never native to the eastern US:
> 
> View attachment 894413




That last one would look great mounted and in my house!!


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## Fuzzy D Fellers

mr otter said:


> That's a coyote.  Contrary to what you hear, coyotes and wolves do not interbreed.  And there are no wolves in georgia.



Netflix had a documentary on the coy wolf which is the eastern coyote and wolf mix. 

Coywolfs are more muscular,  have bigger and stronger jaws than an eastern coyote.


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## 95g atl

NCHillbilly said:


> Out west, no. Coyotes are still coyotes.
> 
> 
> 
> These don't look like the same critter to me:



X1000
Out west they are coyote.  Small skinny animals.
Here in the south they are definitely NOT the same critter.


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## Browning Slayer

95g atl said:


> X1000
> Out west they are coyote.  Small skinny animals.
> Here in the south they are definitely NOT the same critter.



This is a Yote I killed in Utah and my buddy that lives there said it's one of the biggest he had seen.


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## redneck_billcollector

mr otter said:


> That's a coyote.  Contrary to what you hear, coyotes and wolves do not interbreed.  And there are no wolves in georgia.



I am rather curious as to what you are basing your statement on.  Every single genetic study done on ALL eastern coyotes performed since the advent of genetic studies...has shown they all have wolf DNA in their make up.  And yet it is rare or nonexistent in western coyotes. Yes, it is well known that wolves will kill coyotes when they have a healthy population, ie..there is no shortage of mates. However, it is documented and well known, that when a wolf population is stressed and collapsing, they will breed with coyotes.  The big debate amongst the scientific community now about the red wolf is that it is nothing more than a naturally occurring hybrid between timber wolves and coyotes that occurred at the end of the ice age when the environment was rapidly changing stressing both populations.  Why is this a debate you may wonder? Well, the scientific community agrees that the eastern coyote is also a hybrid, just that it is a newer happening.  So the debate goes....why should red wolves still be listed.  I personally have posted numerous genetic studies about this subject in various threads on GON to include on done by the University of Florida, which by the way, showed significant wolf DNA in every single sample they tested.  But all that is neither here nor there...would you please post a study backing your statement. http://www.projectcoyote.org/newsreleases/news_eastern.html http://www.earthtouchnews.com/natur...-coyote-wolf-hybrid-taking-over-north-america http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...ds-coyotes-wolf-virginia-dna-animals-science/ If you would like I can post some raw genetic data which is the result of DNA tests....


----------



## redneck_billcollector

NCHillbilly said:


> So, you are saying that you don't believe the results of multiple DNA tests that show a large percentage of eastern yotes carrying wolf DNA? Or the scientifically confirmed rampant wolf/coyote hybridization that has fouled up the red wolf reintroduction program in eastern NC to the point that it will probably be scrapped? The "typical" or average eastern "coyote" genome according to the latest widespread DNA tests seems to be about 25%-30% wolf, 60-70% coyote, and 5-10% dog DNA.
> 
> I think you are confusing timber wolves with red/brush/Florida wolves. Timber wolves were probably only present in the southeast in the Appalachians. The last known one in my county was killed about 1920. There was another species of wolf common in the south that was almost identical to our modern eastern yote.
> 
> The WNC nature center about 25 miles from here breeds red wolves for the re-introduction programs. I have spent hours and hours watching them. I see wild "yotes" here that look identical to me to the red wolves in the nature center.
> 
> They re-introduced red wolves here in the Smoky Mountains, and supposedly rounded them all back up several years later. After that time, huge multi-colored yotes became common here. I hear some howling every night that don't sound a thing like the typical coyote. They have a low-pitched, drawn-out wolf howl. And I can assure you, 50lb yotes are not that uncommon here in the southern Appalachians.
> 
> Here are some certified full-blooded red wolves in the captive breeding program at the WNC Nature Center. The folks there who breed them also say that the biggest problem for red wolves is interbreeding with coyotes, and trying to find animals that don't have coyote DNA in them. I guess they don't know what they're talking about, either:



Yep, that is creating a problem all over the southeast.  Everywhere they have tried to reintroduce them, they quickly interbreed with the eastern coyote.  I think the only place that hasn't happened is on some barrier islands without any eastern coyotes...or as I call them brush wolves. I have stated my position on this subject numerous times on GON.  I am out west right now and haven't been on here so I have missed out on this thread...but I will say this...I have seen a couple of yotes in the past two days...one south east of Cheyanne Wy. and another outside of Loveland Colorado and they definitely ain't the canine we got back home...and here is the interesting part...we know that colder climates create larger sizes within species...well, these ones out here are puny midgets compared to ours.


----------



## JohnK

mr otter said:


> Coyote.  I have many long lining friends who trapped heavily in the 1970's and didn't catch any yotes until the late 70's.  These are guys that caught hundreds of fox and Coon.  Coyotes came up from Mexico about that time, so not sure how they bred with wolves 200+ years ago...I could be wrong.



We used to rabbit hunt all the time....seems like no one ever ran a coyote or a wolf. I have seen plenty of black coyotes, often with a white patch but no wolves so how did these newly arrived yotes breed with wolves? I'm with Mr. Otter.


----------



## shakey gizzard

The average mutt has wolf DNA in it! The only true way to tell, is to ground check it!


----------



## oppthepop

Just my 2 cents - but i've called in and killed "Coyotes" here in GA and AL, and also in Wyoming, CO, and Utah - THERE IS NOT A COMPARISON. The ones out west are little as compared to what we kill here. Maybe half the size in full grown males. I agree totally with Nic here. We have killed some in Alabama that were as big as any german shepard. IMHO - red wolve DO breed with coyotes. Gray wolves and timber wolves - - well the difference in the size would probably prohibit such an interbreeding, but the red wolf is closer to an original "Coyote" to breed with it. But im not a biologist, scientist, etc., just an old guy that has lived in the woods - and ive seen and killed a lot of "coyotes" - and i would definitely say the ones we have here have red wolf in them.


----------



## mr otter

Back to the DNA discussion.  Scientists have found Neanderthal DNA in many modern day humans, so even though they do not look like Neanderthals, they still have this DNA present in their bodies.  Does this mean that they are Neandersapiens and should be considered a different specie?  As a side note, I have trapped coyotes just as big out west as I have in Georgia.


----------



## JohnK

I can remember when deer were very rare and turkey non-existent over most of this state. The landowners or government restocked the deer and turkey but I've never seen them with wolves.   How did these wolves live all that time and no one ever saw one...I'm not sure ya'll are even saying you have seen a wolf yet. I don't know about the DNA but somewhere we got to have a wolf for all this cross breeding. Where there are wolves they kill cattle, horses, elk etc. not rabbits and mice...who lost a cow lately?


----------



## 95g atl

mr otter said:


> As a side note, I have trapped coyotes just as big out west as I have in Georgia.



Guess those coyotes out west have some wolf mixed with them as well.  

I would love to see some of the western coyotes you have trapped.

The ones I have seen in California, Arizona, and Colorado are pretty small and not like the ones we have on my property and hunt club property.


-------------
In regards to the fellow that trapped some in AL the size of a German Shep, I have delayed shooting a couple of those size critters, merely because I first thought they were someone's dog.  I'm thinking to myself, MAN, that's too big to be a coyote.


----------



## Tider79

Interesting post. Here is a photo comparison of a red wolf and a coyote. The second photo is of a coyote I caught in April. I wondered then and now if it was a hybrid.


----------



## mr otter

Here is a pic of a nice western pale yote that a long lining buddy of mine snared in Montana.  This was not his biggest this year and it weighed 42 lbs.


----------



## bulldawgborn

JohnK said:


> Where there are wolves they kill cattle, horses, elk etc. not rabbits and mice...who lost a cow lately?



My neighbor lost 2 calves to a pack of "coyotes" this past year.  His herd is small, so I would guess that number would be higher if he had more cows...

The ones I have seen around my house look more like the Canis rufus pic that Tider posted than the Canis latrans pic.


----------



## UrbanSongDogSniper

mr otter said:


> The head and the ears, guided in Idaho where we saw plenary of wolves.  Much more of a block head on a wolf.



This original pic looks to me like a regular mature, fairly well-fed, male coyote, say about 5 years old. I don't see much of that obvious block head either.

The ones I usually see here in the burbs look like they are a younger version of the one photographed, as evidenced by their large paws and slighter build when they are young. I think I'm mostly getting the Spring 2015 pups that have been recently driven off from the family.

Overall , this has been an enlightening discussion. Maybe the coyotes in S GA and Florida have the least hybridization ?


----------



## NCHillbilly

JohnK said:


> We used to rabbit hunt all the time....seems like no one ever ran a coyote or a wolf. I have seen plenty of black coyotes, often with a white patch but no wolves so how did these newly arrived yotes breed with wolves? I'm with Mr. Otter.



They bred with wolves on the way here. Yotes came here along the Gulf coast and down from the northeast. And it's not speculation or opinion, their DNA shows wolf genetics. It's not a guess, it is a fact.


----------



## NCHillbilly

How many black yotes y'all see out west?


----------



## Browning Slayer

NCHillbilly said:


> How many black yotes y'all see out west?



Not a single one when I lived there..


----------



## Browning Slayer

NCHillbilly said:


> They bred with wolves on the way here. Yotes came here along the Gulf coast and down from the northeast. And it's not speculation or opinion, their DNA shows wolf genetics. It's not a guess, it is a fact.



You're beating a dead horse.. Some people still think the black panthers roam all over GA..


----------



## mr otter

NCHillbilly said:


> They bred with wolves on the way here. Yotes came here along the Gulf coast and down from the northeast. And it's not speculation or opinion, their DNA shows wolf genetics. It's not a guess, it is a fact.



You still haven't answered my question.  Some humans have Neanderthal DNA yet do not have super human Neanderthal strength, why would we assume that just because a coyote has some wolf DNA in his background he would have super wolf strength or characteristics?


----------



## 95g atl

Browning Slayer said:


> Not a single one when I lived there..



Me either.........20+ years and not a 1.



Browning Slayer said:


> You're beating a dead horse.. Some people still think the black panthers roam all over GA..



true.......
and bigfoot. 




mr otter said:


> You still haven't answered my question.  Some humans have Neanderthal DNA yet do not have super human Neanderthal strength, why would we assume that just because a coyote has some wolf DNA in his background he would have super wolf strength or characteristics?



most likely the Neanderthal DNA will not give you strength b/c 99+++% of the population does nothing the Neanderthals had done.  IE: Hunt for life, live where they lived, braved the elements just to survive.  

There were no TV's, McDonalds, processed foods, LAZY people, etc., back in Neanderthal days.


----------



## mr otter

most likely the Neanderthal DNA will not give you strength b/c 99+++% of the population does nothing the Neanderthals had done.  IE: Hunt for life, live where they lived, braved the elements just to survive.  

There were no TV's, McDonalds, processed foods, LAZY people, etc., back in Neanderthal days.  

[/QUOTE]
Not buying that response


----------



## Ohoopee Tusker

mr otter said:


> most likely the Neanderthal DNA will not give you strength b/c 99+++% of the population does nothing the Neanderthals had done.  IE: Hunt for life, live where they lived, braved the elements just to survive.
> 
> There were no TV's, McDonalds, processed foods, LAZY people, etc., back in Neanderthal days.


Not buying that response[/QUOTE]

Their stocky build was a result of the extreme cold climate in which they lived. It can still be found among some of the northern most people.

I'm also willing to bet none of them were 6 ft 8 in, ran the 40 in 5 seconds, benchpressed 600 lbs, and got paid millions to do it. Lol.
To keep this on topic, I think this is a great discussion. I saw my first coyote/mix in 1982. Always aggressive and keeping packs in my area in mid/east Ga. Usually see the black ones with the white V every few years. There was a large one dead in the highway about a mile from my home last year.


----------



## j_seph

Even she has Wolf DNA






Interesting read
http://www.whitewolfpack.com/2011/04/is-dog-just-wolf-in-chihuahua-suit.html


----------



## Tider79

Pasted below is a link to one of many articles on this topic. In summary, the study found that eastern coyotes in the NE US and Canada (not Georgia) are mostly made up of coyote – but about 10% of their DNA originally came from domestic dogs, another 25% or so came from wolves.

There are significant differences in size and appearance of individuals of the same species including humans. So, for me, the issue boils down to how much wolf DNA is in the Georgia coyote. 

If anyone has information on any similar genetic studies conducted on coyotes in the southeastern U.S. and Georgia, in particular, I'd be interested in reading it.

http://www.earthtouchnews.com/natur...-coyote-wolf-hybrid-taking-over-north-america


----------



## j_seph

http://www.timberwolfinformation.org/ga-coyote-trapped-at-srs-carries-dna-of-grey-wolf/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...ds-coyotes-wolf-virginia-dna-animals-science/

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/meet...-guide-to-the-coywolf-or-eastern-coyote/8663/

http://www.earthtouchnews.com/natur...-coyote-wolf-hybrid-taking-over-north-america

http://www.coywolf.org/coywolf-basic-info/


----------



## au7126

Watching GPB now about this topic. very interesting


----------



## Browning Slayer

JohnK said:


> I can remember when deer were very rare and turkey non-existent over most of this state. The landowners or government restocked the deer and turkey but I've never seen them with wolves.   How did these wolves live all that time and no one ever saw one...I'm not sure ya'll are even saying you have seen a wolf yet. I don't know about the DNA but somewhere we got to have a wolf for all this cross breeding. Where there are wolves they kill cattle, horses, elk etc. not rabbits and mice...who lost a cow lately?



No one said there are wolves here.. Just a different Yote then you see west of the Mississippi.. There are tons of proven data linking the yotes to wolves from the great lakes region and we've posted it all on here. You should actually click on the links and learn something.

Ok.. We've provided you with tons and tons of scientific data and all you've provided is YOUR opinion. How about you back up your claims with some real data instead of "YOUR" thoughts..


----------



## NCHillbilly

mr otter said:


> You still haven't answered my question.  Some humans have Neanderthal DNA yet do not have super human Neanderthal strength, why would we assume that just because a coyote has some wolf DNA in his background he would have super wolf strength or characteristics?



I have already answered your question, but you keep sticking your fingers in your ears so you can't hear the answer.  

The wolf DNA in eastern coyotes shows up in their differences from western coyotes: Bigger size, tendency to hunt in packs, and common color variations. Those are all wolf traits, not coyote traits. 

Wolf DNA does not make them a timber wolf, it makes them a unique canid that is different from anything else in North America, but apparently really similar to what used to be here in the Southeast to begin with. Not quite a wolf, not quite a coyote; but distinctly different from western coyotes. 

There is a lot of scientific speculation that the red wolf is nothing but a long-standing wolf/coyote hybrid itself, that has stabilized over time into what it is today.


----------



## oppthepop

NCHILLBILLY I totally agree - just from personal experience in both parts of the country. Also, IMHO, if NICODEMUS has any input, I'm gonna lean his way as he is true woodsman from what i have read on his posts. 
If I kill or trap any of the "questionable" canines after deer season is over I will gladly post some pics for reference.
Good discussion.


----------



## Tider79

Thanks for the links Jseph. Those were interesting reads.
A 64 lb female coyote. Wow.


----------



## JohnK

Tider79 said:


> Interesting post. Here is a photo comparison of a red wolf and a coyote. The second photo is of a coyote I caught in April. I wondered then and now if it was a hybrid.



Well, Last year I shotgunned a larger male, estimate 40 lbs., that was a twin for c. rufus in your post and like I said, that black coyote is common on the land I hunt.
The only coyotes I've ever seen were in NW Georgia so I really don't know what the rest of them look like. The little bitty ones with skinny legs I call pups. We don't have much discussion about it between me, myself and I.


----------



## Barebowyer

Informative post and the longest one I have ever seen on GON without someone getting nasty.  Very productive and mature, enjoying it


----------



## elfiii

So what would you call this female? I call it a coyote.


----------



## antharper

elfiii said:


> So what would you call this female? I call it a coyote.



I'd call it a good coyote , did u try your new call out ?


----------



## JohnK

Lookin' good


----------



## elfiii

antharper said:


> I'd call it a good coyote , did u try your new call out ?



Not yet. I killed her back in October. Going to try and make it to the woods next weekend and give it a whirl.


----------



## fishingtiger

This has been a very interesting read! Saw this guy in my backyard. I think it is an eastern wulfshund


----------



## shakey gizzard

fishingtiger said:


> This has been a very interesting read! Saw this guy in my backyard. I think it is an eastern wulfshund



The alpha males always have those light colored manes!


----------



## Browning Slayer

elfiii said:


> So what would you call this female? I call it a coyote.



I would call it "dead"..


----------



## ddd-shooter

Nicodemus said:


> This is one I took a picture of here in Southwest Georgia. What is it?



Can we all take a min and appreciate this set-up? 
Knowing a little of Nic's posts, I saw this one coming. 
But still, an epic takedown for sure. Nothing like facts getting in the way of a good argument. 
I've seen some coyotes up here in the mtns that made me say wow, but I didn't know why until today. 

Thanks for the education, gentlemen.


----------



## chehawknapper

There are pure coyotes in the S. E. However, there are also many coyotes showing up with red wolf interbreeding. Where did it come from you ask. It has been my, Nick's and Jay's opinion since the late 70's early 80's that the "Florida Black Wolf - color variation of red wolf" never disappeared completely. US F&W trapped numerous animals in the early 70's in east Texas and western Louisiana thinking that was the only location left of pure red wolf. After genetic testing to eliminate the coyotes, these were the animals that started the captive red wolf breeding program which utilizes accredited zoos of which Chehaw is one. Records have been kept on every single animal in that breeding program. Several release areas have been tried. They have all failed except the one in coastal N.C. Because of an already established population of coyotes. In a normal healthy population of red wolves they would kill coyotes. But in an introduced population of few animals the mating urge will accept any of the same "family". The current problem with the N.C. Population is they were introduced on federal land which is poor habitat for the wolves. They have migrated into private lands creating problems with farms and ranchers (the original reason they were almost killed to extinction). Then a federal judge ruled it was unlawful to hunt coyotes because of the inability to discern the difference between red wolves and coyotes. The locals and the N.C. Wildlife officials exploded and everything has not been settled yet. I am convinced that the black brush wolves that show up quite regularly are proof positive that the Fl. Black Wolf that Bartrum spoke of never completely disappeared.


----------



## NCHillbilly

chehawknapper said:


> There are pure coyotes in the S. E. However, there are also many coyotes showing up with red wolf interbreeding. Where did it come from you ask. It has been my, Nick's and Jay's opinion since the late 70's early 80's that the "Florida Black Wolf - color variation of red wolf" never disappeared completely. US F&W trapped numerous animals in the early 70's in east Texas and western Louisiana thinking that was the only location left of pure red wolf. After genetic testing to eliminate the coyotes, these were the animals that started the captive red wolf breeding program which utilizes accredited zoos of which Chehaw is one. Records have been kept on every single animal in that breeding program. Several release areas have been tried. They have all failed except the one in coastal N.C. Because of an already established population of coyotes. In a normal healthy population of red wolves they would kill coyotes. But in an introduced population of few animals the mating urge will accept any of the same "family". The current problem with the N.C. Population is they were introduced on federal land which is poor habitat for the wolves. They have migrated into private lands creating problems with farms and ranchers (the original reason they were almost killed to extinction). Then a federal judge ruled it was unlawful to hunt coyotes because of the inability to discern the difference between red wolves and coyotes. The locals and the N.C. Wildlife officials exploded and everything has not been settled yet. I am convinced that the black brush wolves that show up quite regularly are proof positive that the Fl. Black Wolf that Bartrum spoke of never completely disappeared.



Ben, the NC program is also currently suffering big problems from the red wolves interbreeding with coyotes.

I agree with your theory, also.


----------



## chehawknapper

It is my understanding that where they were originally established on federal land there were not any coyotes. But, because it was such poor habitat, the wolves moved out of the area onto private land and then started interbreeding with coyotes. Once depredation of livestock started, the locals did not care if it was coyotes or wolves. A lawsuit was filed to stop hunting coyotes in the area because of the inability to distinguish the difference. A federal judge agreed which made the N.C. Wildlife to ask the Feds to declare the red wolf extinct in the wild which would then give them the green light to eradicate them. The Feds have refused to that and the saga continues. Chehaw is one of several locations that are actively involved with a very intensive breeding program to keep the genetic lines healthy. The big question for the future is where can these animals ever be released and remain pure genetically as well as not causing a problem with people/livestock?


----------



## watermedic

I killed this one this year. He weighed in at 44 lbs.







[/URL][/IMG]






[/URL][/IMG]


----------



## Core Lokt

Got this pic at the house a couple yrs ago. Think it has wolf in it. Just S of Metcalf Ga.


----------



## bfriendly

I saw Rufus the other day at Pinelog.........It really had a bunch of orangish brown. I thought it was some Big dog at first even though I knew it had to be a yote. Finally it turned as I moved and then I saw its Head real good and it was surely rufus!

Beautiful winter coat and I guarantee you this thing was over 50 lbs! There is no doubt there is a difference.....I knew it but now I know WHAT

Thanks for the lesson......


----------



## Nicodemus

au7126 said:


> Watching GPB now about this topic. very interesting





Here is the one you sent me the picture of. Interesting critter.


----------



## chehawknapper

Nick, you should check out the male on exhibit right now.


----------



## au7126

Thanks to Nic for posting this pic for me. Trapper that caught this coy??? has very  good results on our club and adjoining farm . 27 coyotes and a bunch of coons in spring.  After season this year put the smack on 14 more. The picture Nic posted is from Green county.  Has one green and one blue eye. Ga DNR has requested he keep alive and they want to sample DNA. 
Will update as info is avaiable


----------



## au7126

DNR says this a brush wolf or coy dog. Trapper said he was a big and mean one. Had to keep him in separate pen, he wanted to kill the other coyotes


----------



## blt152

Not an expert here but he looks to have some Husky blood in him. Interesting looking animal. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Nicodemus

chehawknapper said:


> Nick, you should check out the male on exhibit right now.





I`ll try to get out there tomorrow. I want to bring that rock-artifact for you to look at too.


----------



## DSGB

Interesting coat on this one that was posted on Instagram. They said it was in Georgia.


----------



## Southern Cyote

Nice pic DSGB, almost looks like hes got some husky in him.


----------



## GT-40 GUY

A friend in upstate New York killed this big male last week. He put his hat to give some perspective.

gt40


----------



## shakey gizzard

DSGB said:


> Interesting coat on this one that was posted on Instagram. They said it was in Georgia.



Here is one from Cumming!


----------



## Nicodemus

This is a big one. Unique color to it too.


----------



## mguthrie

Is that a coyote Nic or a red wolf. Captive somewhere?


----------



## Philhutch80

*There is a Documentary...*



NCHillbilly said:


> Wolves and coyotes DEFINITELY interbreed, and most eastern coyotes are a mix. This is not me saying it, it's documented by scientific research and DNA testing. Why do all the DNA studies by scientists show that eastern coyotes almost all are carrying wolf DNA? It has been proven several times. Do a little studying. There are plenty of published peer-reviewed scientific studies out there.
> 
> Every study I'm aware of has shown the same results, the presence of wolf DNA in a large percentage of the "coyotes" from various eastern states.
> 
> It is also one of the major problems with the red wolf re-introduction project in eastern NC. They keep hybridizing with yotes. Not once or twice, it happens commonly.  This is also scientifically documented in spades.
> 
> Eastern coyotes are not the same critter as the western ones, by a long shot. They do not look alike or act alike.



It is called Coy-Wolf. I believe it is on Netflix currently. Very easy to look up. Coyotes and wolves have been hybridizing for several decades. Fact the Coy-Wolves are far more dangerous than a coyote or a wolf because they are hybridized with the best traits.


----------



## AdamFly

I think the discussion is interesting and not really that significant the outcome to me. I find appreciable that we have a unique identity to the animals here. I think in some ways it's missing the point to argue an exact nomenclature of a coyote or coywolf. There is, however, a distinct difference between the breeds of western, northeastern, and eastern coyotes. Mitochondrial DNA identifies three genotypes in eastern coyotes, that of coyote, wolf and dog. In most cases the eastern coyote only has small amounts of wolf, with a fair amount of dog, and largest amounts of dog. Northeastern coyotes have higher amounts of wolf but is still the lowest contributor of DNA. So to say that coyotes do not interbreed is incorrect, they are canines and as such do interbreed. However, my opinion is that in western states they have more wilderness and less contact with domestic dogs, and maybe a greater food source to wolves than mating partners. Where as in eastern states there is closer proximity to find females heat, as well as more frequent contact. Eastern states also have greater abundance of smaller game for coyotes to pray on making dogs or red wolves(if that's the type of wolf that's genotyped) more attractive as boyfriend or girlfriend than food. Researcher Jonathan Way stated "I propose that the most appropriate name for this hybrid animal is Coywolf (Canis latrans × C. lycaon), rather than a type of Coyote. Coywolves are distinct, being larger than any other population of Coyotes but smaller than Eastern Wolves. I propose that the 5 distinct types of Canis be recognized as: western Coyote, Coywolf (northeastern Coyote), Eastern Wolf (including Red Wolf C. rufus), Gray × Eastern Wolf hybrids (‘Great Lakes’ Wolves; C. lupus × C. lycaon or C. lycaon × C. lupus), and Gray Wolf (C. lupus). The implications for wolf recovery in the northeastern United States is discussed." So I'll restate my idea that it is a unique animal and we should be viewed as such, but I don't think arguing over red wolf or not changes the fact these animals are different than western states.


----------



## AdamFly

Philhutch80 said:


> It is called Coy-Wolf. I believe it is on Netflix currently. Very easy to look up. Coyotes and wolves have been hybridizing for several decades. Fact the Coy-Wolves are far more dangerous than a coyote or a wolf because they are hybridized with the best traits.


What would be your definition of best traits? No one can determine the aggressiveness of without a breeder increasing odds of a certain phenotype. Some maybe more aggressive and some may not.


----------



## Ff2012

AdamFly said:


> I think the discussion is interesting and not really that significant the outcome to me. I find appreciable that we have a unique identity to the animals here. I think in some ways it's missing the point to argue an exact nomenclature of a coyote or coywolf. There is, however, a distinct difference between the breeds of western, northeastern, and eastern coyotes. Mitochondrial DNA identifies three genotypes in eastern coyotes, that of coyote, wolf and dog. In most cases the eastern coyote only has small amounts of wolf, with a fair amount of dog, and largest amounts of dog. Northeastern coyotes have higher amounts of wolf but is still the lowest contributor of DNA. So to say that coyotes do not interbreed is incorrect, they are canines and as such do interbreed. However, my opinion is that in western states they have more wilderness and less contact with domestic dogs, and maybe a greater food source to wolves than mating partners. Where as in eastern states there is closer proximity to find females heat, as well as more frequent contact. Eastern states also have greater abundance of smaller game for coyotes to pray on making dogs or red wolves(if that's the type of wolf that's genotyped) more attractive as boyfriend or girlfriend than food. Researcher Jonathan Way stated "I propose that the most appropriate name for this hybrid animal is Coywolf (Canis latrans × C. lycaon), rather than a type of Coyote. Coywolves are distinct, being larger than any other population of Coyotes but smaller than Eastern Wolves. I propose that the 5 distinct types of Canis be recognized as: western Coyote, Coywolf (northeastern Coyote), Eastern Wolf (including Red Wolf C. rufus), Gray × Eastern Wolf hybrids (‘Great Lakes’ Wolves; C. lupus × C. lycaon or C. lycaon × C. lupus), and Gray Wolf (C. lupus). The implications for wolf recovery in the northeastern United States is discussed." So I'll restate my idea that it is a unique animal and we should be viewed as such, but I don't think arguing over red wolf or not changes the fact these animals are different than western states.


All dem big wurds making my brain hurt !


----------



## Nicodemus

mguthrie said:


> Is that a coyote Nic or a red wolf. Captive somewhere?





That`s a pure full blooded red wolf. He`s in the breeding program at Chehaw Park.

Anybody care to guess what this one is? Coyote, red wolf, or timber wolf?


----------



## mguthrie

The red wolf is beautiful. I'll guess timber wolf on the second pic. Head and ears don't appear to be yote but I could be mistakin


----------



## Nicodemus

mguthrie said:


> The red wolf is beautiful. I'll guess timber wolf on the second pic. Head and ears don't appear to be yote but I could be mistakin





The second picture is also a big male red wolf. He will be part of the breeding program as well.


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## mguthrie

I need to get to chehaw soon and see them.


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## KyDawg

Are their plans to release them Nic?


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## Nicodemus

KyDawg said:


> Are their plans to release them Nic?





Not for a long time, Charlie, if ever.


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## GAJoe

Here's a north east Georgia coyote that I called this mornin'.


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## Ff2012

That's a pretty dog


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## Melvin4730

Every domestic dog's DNA is over 99% identical to the wolf's DNA.


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## carver

*Here is a black coyote I*

killed in Walton county,weight was 54lbs


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## carver

*A Yellowstone wolf*

for comparison


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## Samoset

GAJoe said:


> Here's a north east Georgia coyote that I called this mornin'.



Very beautiful photos, what kind of camera are you shooting these yotes with?


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## GAJoe

Samoset said:


> Very beautiful photos, what kind of camera are you shooting these yotes with?



Thanks!
My new Canon 7D MkII
Got some wood ducks last weekend; posted in the photography forum.


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## JohnK

Ff2012 said:


> All dem big wurds making my brain hurt !



Me too but I'm glad he said it. Thanks


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## jrickman

JohnK said:


> I can remember when deer were very rare and turkey non-existent over most of this state. The landowners or government restocked the deer and turkey but I've never seen them with wolves.   How did these wolves live all that time and no one ever saw one...I'm not sure ya'll are even saying you have seen a wolf yet. I don't know about the DNA but somewhere we got to have a wolf for all this cross breeding. Where there are wolves they kill cattle, horses, elk etc. not rabbits and mice...who lost a cow lately?



Around here (Habersham, Banks, Stephens, Franklin) nearly everyone has donkeys in their pastures to protect the cows because they WERE losing them.


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## Hillbilly stalker

2 SC dogs, I was wondering if they were mixed


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## Hillbilly stalker

38 lb male. Not mine


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## Ff2012

Hillbilly stalker said:


> 38 lb male. Not mine



It looks like he weighs more than 38, could just be the pic though. Trophy none the less!


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