# 20 gauge experiment



## BigPimpin (Jan 16, 2015)

I decided after last turkey season that I wanted to try the HW #7s, so I ran out and picked up a Benelli M2 in 20 ga..  Haven't tried it yet.  Last week I ran across a $199 H&R pump 20 ga. that felt like it was built like a tank, so I picked it up too.  The h&r looks very much like an 870.  I called Sumtoy and have 2 choke tubes on the way.  Can't wait to see how they pattern.  I'm kinda hoping the cheap one beats the Benelli.  This might save somebody $1200 or so.  I will updated the thread once my shells come in and I perform the experiment.


*****************UPDATED 3/14/15***************

To keep somebody from having to read through this long thread, let me sum up my results:

The H&R patterns better with a Sumtoy Choke and HW7s than the Benelli with the same choke and ammo.  It puts about 15% more shot in the 10" ring at 40 yds.

The Benelli was dead on bulls eye straight out of the box.  I had to put adjustable sights on the H&R to get it on target.  

The benelli has a chrome lined barrel, so I couldn't polish it.  I did polish the H&R with a drill, brass brush wrapped with a scotch brite pad, JB bore cleaner, bore brite and kroil.  This is what set the shotguns apart.  They were patterning the same before I did this.


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## 01Foreman400 (Jan 16, 2015)

That M2 is a sweet shooter.


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## mossyoakpro (Jan 16, 2015)

Once you see the patterns that M2 throws you will use that H&R as a walking stick....


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## sman (Jan 16, 2015)

I'm interested in a cheap 20 myself.  Heard great things about the Tristar.


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## mossyoakpro (Jan 17, 2015)

sman said:


> I'm interested in a cheap 20 myself.  Heard great things about the Tristar.



Supposed to be good guns Scott...but for the price of the 870 youth it's a no brainer.  And the amount of aftermarket goodies you can find for them is endless.


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## turkeyed (Jan 17, 2015)

Got my son the tri-star.  Put a sims recoil pad and a sumtoy choke in it.  Hope to pattern soon.  Its getting drilled and tapped this week.  Gonna shoot Fed HW #7's!


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## sman (Jan 17, 2015)

mossyoakpro said:


> Supposed to be good guns Scott...but for the price of the 870 youth it's a no brainer.  And the amount of aftermarket goodies you can find for them is endless.



Mostly buying it for my son. He wants an auto for doves. Currently he is shooting a Moss Bantam.


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## sman (Jan 17, 2015)

turkeyed said:


> Got my son the tri-star.  Put a sims recoil pad and a sumtoy choke in it.  Hope to pattern soon.  Its getting drilled and tapped this week.  Gonna shoot Fed HW #7's!



Text me how it does. I figured I would run over to Williams one day and get him to fix me up. He lives about 7 miles from my front door.


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## turkeyed (Jan 17, 2015)

sman said:


> Text me how it does. I figured I would run over to Williams one day and get him to fix me up. He lives about 7 miles from my front door.



I will buddy!  When I get it back and have a day off I will get it paterrned .


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## RLykens (Jan 18, 2015)

I have killed a ton of turkeys with a 870 youth 20ga with a compen choke. Killed one at 40 yds on year its a blast shooting birds with that gun and its so light you can carry it all day and never notice it


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## BigPimpin (Jan 31, 2015)

The H&R with a Sumtoy choke and Fed #7 HW put 77 in the 10 ring at 40yds.  The Benelli M2 with a Sumtoy put 129 in the 10 at 40 using the same load.


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## BigPimpin (Jan 31, 2015)

H&r


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## BigPimpin (Jan 31, 2015)

Benelli


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## georgia_home (Jan 31, 2015)

I've read that that hr pump is a Chinese make knockoff of the 870 with minimal cosmetic changes like the top back of the receiver.


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## BigPimpin (Jan 31, 2015)

georgia_home said:


> I've read that that hr pump is a Chinese make knockoff of the 870 with minimal cosmetic changes like the top back of the receiver.



It is similar to an 870.  Some parts are interchangable from what I have read.  I was disappointed with the pattern it put out today.  Didnt think there would be that much of a difference between shotguns.


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## BigPimpin (Jan 31, 2015)

The benelli took me a few shot to figure out the beads.  This was one of my first shots before I found that the rear bead had to completely hide the front fiber optic.    I wrote on the target upside down, so my first couple  shots were actually a litte high.  This was my first.  Now that I know how to hold, it is dead on.  Left/right were good, which surprised me because I have read about lots of POI issues with the M2 and factory sights.


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## Killdee (Jan 31, 2015)

Call William, I would try a couple different chokes in the H_R before I throw it in the crik


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## 01Foreman400 (Jan 31, 2015)

I'm sure you will bet some better patterns once it warms up a little.


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## BigPimpin (Jan 31, 2015)

01Foreman400 said:


> I'm sure you will bet some better patterns once it warms up a little.



Enlighten me.


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## hrstille (Jan 31, 2015)

Put a jelly head in that benelli and shoot hevi 3" 5,6,7 blend. My nova 20ga put 170 in a 10" @ 40


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## Killdee (Jan 31, 2015)

BigPimpin said:


> Enlighten me.



Weather plays a big part in how a shotgun patterns, warmer= better


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## BigPimpin (Jan 31, 2015)

Killdee said:


> Weather plays a big part in how a shotgun patterns, warmer= better



Then it may be worth mentioning that it was COLD this morning when I shot these patterns.


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 1, 2015)

This was wrriten by Warren Johnson “Dr. Gauss”




Hello Sir,

I am a shooter who competes in still-target shotgun (NWTF turkey shoot) events. We are trying to put the most possible shot in a 3-inch circle at 40 yards with our 12 and 20 gauge shotguns using factory turkey loads and turkey chokes. I have noticed that the weather plays an extremely important role in the ability of a gun/shell combo to produce tight clusters of shot on any given day. For instance, hot weather always seems to produce denser patterns than cold weather.

However, there are other weather factors that make a difference that I don’t understand as well. I’ve seen the quality of patterns change within a given day when the temperature remained relatively constant. I suspect that it must have something to do with changes in barometric pressure, air density, or some other factor. Can you elaborate on this and provide me any guidance on how I might predict good or bad times?

Thank You,

Steve


Dear Steve,

Thanks for your great question. It isn’t often that I get questions about atmospheric effects on shot patterns, but they can indeed be significant, just as they are in other sports, such as baseball or golf.

Air density exerts a drag force on any object moving through it. The higher the density, the more drag is exerted. This drag serves to slow down the object moving through it.

A smooth or nearly smooth object (such as a bullet or golf ball) will normally fly in a relatively straight path when subjected to this air drag.

However, as all golfers know, if the object has side, top, or back spin, its path will curve in response to the air drag force.

Now, lead pellets fired from a shotgun end up being far from smooth spheres. Those toward the rear of the load are subjected to setback forces when the load is fired, which deforms them and creates flat spots. Aerodynamic forces acting on these flat spots move the pellet transversely off track, as well as create spin, which does the same thing.

OK, this is a long-winded explanation of what happens when a non-spherical pellet moves through the air. The main point here is that these random aerodynamic forces open up (disperse) shot patterns. This effect increases with increasing air density. There is one other atmospheric effect that I will save until later.

So now to your question: what atmospheric factors affect shot dispersion? The answer is, anything that affects air density, which are pressure, temperature, and humidity. Of these, air temperature has the largest range and gives the largest changes in air density. The higher the temperature, the lower the density.

In absolute terms, air temperature changes from summer to winter can cause air density variations of up to 25%, with corresponding changes in shot pattern dispersion (tighter patterns when it’s hot, more open when it’s cold).

Within a given day, normal air temperature variations can cause air density, and thus shot pattern, variations of as much as 8%. Normal air pressure changes within a single day can change patterns as much as 3 or 4%.

Humidity effects amount to no more than 1 or 2%, even in the summer. Contrary to what most people think, the more humid the air, the lighter (less dense) it is.

One other atmospheric factor, atmospheric turbulence, can cause shot pattern changes from hour to hour within a given day. When wind blows over the ground, it creates random eddies of different sizes, some quite small, within which the air is moving in different directions. On a hot day, there are also thermal eddies caused by hot air near the ground rising. This combination of mechanical and thermal eddies makes up what is caused atmospheric turbulence.

When a pellet ensemble (or pattern) traveling through the air encounters atmospheric turbulence, different portions of the pattern can fly through different turbulent eddies of air moving in random directions. These can impart a small transverse movement to the various pellets, which has the overall effect of opening up the pattern.

Steve, I’m sure that’s more than you ever wanted to know, but that’s what happens when you ask a scientist a question!

Best wishes and happy shooting,

Warren Johnson
 “Dr. Gauss”


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## hrstille (Feb 1, 2015)

Weather may factor into the pattern of a gun but its not always sunny and 70 when your turkey hunting. Its good to know what kind of pattern you get in cold and warm weather.


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## spydermon (Feb 1, 2015)

I'd go back to the drawing board on both of those..something isn't right.  You should be getting 150+ with both of those.

 Time for some TSS 9s and call it a day


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## SC Hunter (Feb 1, 2015)

I've been wanting a m2 20 gauge for some time now myself.


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## BigPimpin (Feb 1, 2015)

I should add that the H&R was out of a new, never shot, never cleaned barrel.  The M2 was out of a dirty barrel that I have shot a few rounds of sporting clays with.


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 1, 2015)

BigPimpin said:


> I should add that the H&R was out of a new, never shot, never cleaned barrel.  The M2 was out of a dirty barrel that I have shot a few rounds of sporting clays with.



That might explain the low numbers out of the M2.  Clean it and shoot it again.


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 1, 2015)

SC Hunter said:


> I've been wanting a m2 20 gauge for some time now myself.



They are sweet!


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## BigPimpin (Feb 1, 2015)

01Foreman400 said:


> That might explain the low numbers out of the M2.  Clean it and shoot it again.



What should be expected?


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 1, 2015)

BigPimpin said:


> What should be expected?



At least 140's.  

A clean barrel and warmer temps and you might be surprised.  

Your pattern will still kill turkeys though.


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## icdedturkes (Feb 1, 2015)

01Foreman400 said:


> That might explain the low numbers out of the M2.  Clean it and shoot it again.



Yup no telling what is in that barrel from the factory.. Sometimes chokes come with this garbage in them as well, particularly the SSX and it takes some time to get that crap out.. 

Will ultimately effect pattern density and ease of cleaning as well as the gunk absorbs the powder and wad fouling.

Scrub the crap out of with bore cleaner and a brush, clean patches, clean your brush, repeat.. When finished and before shooting run a patch saturated in brake cleaner or alcohol to get any residual oils from the barrel.


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## BigPimpin (Feb 1, 2015)

Looks like I will be cleaning the barrels and trying again.


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## SC Hunter (Feb 1, 2015)

01Foreman400 said:


> They are sweet!



I just can't make myself pull the trigger on one.. I've got my main turkey gun a 870 youth 20 gauge and 3 more 20's, but I want a auto 20. I honestly don't know why I'm putting it off my brother has a m2 12 and 20 and their both sweet!


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## WFL (Feb 1, 2015)

yes all the chokes have oil in them.  Now clean the barrel and choke to get the oil out.  Then check POA/POI  H&R looked to be low.


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 1, 2015)

SC Hunter said:


> I just can't make myself pull the trigger on one.. I've got my main turkey gun a 870 youth 20 gauge and 3 more 20's, but I want a auto 20. I honestly don't know why I'm putting it off my brother has a m2 12 and 20 and their both sweet!



I own 7 20 gauges.  One of them being a M2. You would leave that 870 at home.


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## BigPimpin (Feb 15, 2015)

I cleaned the heck out of both shotguns and gave them both another try.  45 degrees and no wind.  40 yards taped.


H&R - 143 in the 10" ring at 40 yards (HW7)

Benelli - 144 in the 10" ring at 40 yards (HW7)


The Benelli is dead on.  

The H&R is low and right.


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## BigPimpin (Feb 15, 2015)

Both Sumtoy chokes.


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 15, 2015)

Not bad at all.  I hand polish all my Benelli barrels.  Nothing aggressive but enough to get it good and clean and very shiny. Did my M2 20 ga. on Friday.


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## little rascal (Feb 15, 2015)

*20 Gauge*

and hevi-shot # 5's(pheasant loads) = turkey's worst nightmare!!!!
Pattern them if you don't believe me.


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## WFL (Feb 15, 2015)

I had a one this weekend that did not shoot he changed box of shells and it jump 40 shot.  Plus get oil out the gun.


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## BigPimpin (Feb 15, 2015)

M2 20 ga.  It was actually 45 degrees.


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## BigPimpin (Feb 15, 2015)

Pardner Pump 20 ga.  45 degrees instead of 40.


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## BigPimpin (Feb 15, 2015)

So I guess the moral of the story is:  A $200 shotgun will kill one just as dead as a top dollar Benelli.  Just might have to make a small adjustment to the sights.


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 15, 2015)

BigPimpin said:


> So I guess the moral of the story is:  A $200 shotgun will kill one just as dead as a top dollar Benelli.  Just might have to make a small adjustment to the sights.



It's more about the choke and ammo really.  

Good luck with that (if ever needed) second shot.


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## Curtis-UGA (Feb 15, 2015)

BigPimpin said:


> So I guess the moral of the story is:  A $200 shotgun will kill one just as dead as a top dollar Benelli.  Just might have to make a small adjustment to the sights.



Yep! 

Thanks for keeping us informed on your progress!


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## mauser64 (Feb 15, 2015)

BigPimpin said:


> So I guess the moral of the story is:  A $200 shotgun will kill one just as dead as a top dollar Benelli.  Just might have to make a small adjustment to the sights.



Always have, always will! Just shoot what you like and what you have confidence in.


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## BBond (Feb 16, 2015)

My wife shoots a youth Mossberg 500 20 .ga with a screw in Carlson's turkey choke.  Deadly.


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 16, 2015)

BigPimpin said:


> So I guess the moral of the story is:  A $200 shotgun will kill one just as dead as a top dollar Benelli.  Just might have to make a small adjustment to the sights.



The question is, what one are you going to hunt with?


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## BigPimpin (Feb 16, 2015)

01Foreman400 said:


> The question is, what one are you going to hunt with?



The Benelli.  It hits dead on target, its an auto, handles better, its camo.

But its gonna be hard to leave the old 3.5" mag at home.  I like 192 #5s in the 10 ring better than 144 #7s.


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 16, 2015)

BigPimpin said:


> The Benelli.  It hits dead on target, its an auto, handles better, its camo.
> 
> But its gonna be hard to leave the old 3.5" mag at home.  I like 192 #5s in the 10 ring better than 144 #7s.



It's hard to compete with a 12 ga. when you're only shooting factory loads.  The M2 20 ga. is a great gun espesially paired up with the HW's. Guys are killing turkeys at 50 yards with your set-up.


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## SKFOOTER (Feb 17, 2015)

You never did say what the constriction size was of the Sumtoy chokes.


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## BigPimpin (Feb 17, 2015)

SKFOOTER said:


> You never did say what the constriction size was of the Sumtoy chokes.



I dont know what they are.  I called him, told him what guns and HW7.  I left it up to him to send me the right chokes.  All 3 of my Sumtoys are unmarked.  My 835 choke put 192 LB5 in the 10 at 40 in low 30's weather the other day.  I am pleased with every choke he has sold me.


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## WFL (Feb 17, 2015)

562 on all 20s and 675 on all 835/935 unless custom order.


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## BigPimpin (Mar 9, 2015)

I just finished polishing the barrel on the H&R.  Followed the instructions on Old Gobbler to the letter.  I will update when I get a chance to shoot it.  Lots of junk came out and the barrel looks very clean.


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## returntoarchery (Mar 11, 2015)

BigPimpin said:


> The Benelli M2 with a Sumtoy put 129 in the 10 at 40 using the same load.



That right there made me feel better about the M37 Turkeyslayer I just got. It's doing about the same, 140,  as your M2.


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## Killdee (Mar 11, 2015)

01Foreman400 said:


> It's more about the choke and ammo really.
> 
> Good luck with that (if ever needed) second shot.



Hmm do pumps not have a second shot now???

I may be in trouble with my 220b SS....


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## 01Foreman400 (Mar 11, 2015)

Killdee said:


> Hmm do pumps not have a second shot now???
> 
> I may be in trouble with my 220b SS....



You got me.  For some reason I was thinking that H&R was a single shot.


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## smoothie (Mar 12, 2015)

I have an h&r single 20 that is a sweet sweet turkey gun the way it is. I plan on using my cz bobwhite 20 side by side this year though


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## Killdee (Mar 12, 2015)

my buddys has a CZ, but so far he cant make it shoot straight from both barrels with turkey loads.He wanted a tight choke and more open on the other side for close shots but not working out. Beauty of a gun.


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## Gaswamp (Mar 12, 2015)

Killdee said:


> Hmm do pumps not have a second shot now???
> 
> I may be in trouble with my 220b SS....



when you gonna post a pic of it?


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## 01Foreman400 (Mar 12, 2015)

Gaswamp said:


> when you gonna post a pic of it?



I want to see some TSS patterns........


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## BigPimpin (Mar 12, 2015)

returntoarchery said:


> That right there made me feel better about the M37 Turkeyslayer I just got. It's doing about the same, 140,  as your M2.



It's consistantly doing mid 140s now that I keep the barrel clean.  All testing this year has been done in 45 degree weather or colder, also.


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## smoothie (Mar 13, 2015)

Killdee said:


> my buddys has a CZ, but so far he cant make it shoot straight from both barrels with turkey loads.He wanted a tight choke and more open on the other side for close shots but not working out. Beauty of a gun.



Mine shoots great. I am having some chokes built for mo e now. I'll let ya know how they do if he is interested. I had to get used to the pattern being so tight up close with mine no matter what choke I used


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## strutlife (Mar 13, 2015)

Go to oldgobbler.com. Get you a user name and password and you will be able to see any gun, choke, sight and load data you will ever want to look at along with patterns posted. Your welcome.


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## strutlife (Mar 13, 2015)

Escort is a great semi auto 20 guage shotgun for the money. 
Buddy and myself have one each with Sumtoy chokes shooting hvy 7's great and TSS 8's really great.


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## Killdee (Mar 14, 2015)

Gaswamp said:


> when you gonna post a pic of it?



 I'm running behind on it, snapped the firing pin right after I got it back from William and had to run it over to deer creek. I hope to go shoot it this afternoon or tomorrow.


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## BigPimpin (Mar 14, 2015)

*Update*

The H&R put 166 in the 10 ring at 40 after polishing the barrel.  Sumtoy/HW7.  Patterns better than my Benelli M2 with a Sumtoy and same ammo.


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## strutlife (Mar 14, 2015)

That barrel polishing made it do a little better. As stated before, when temps come up some, so will shot count in the 10. Lookin good.


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## deast1988 (Feb 21, 2018)

U shoot anything with them?


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## tknight (Feb 21, 2018)

I have a nova 20 that I have really been pleased with, but have been considering the M2 myself.  My thinking behind the M2, even though it's still an inertia driven action, that it will not have as much recoil as the nova.  How did the recoil feel between the HR and the M2?


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