# Election vs. Freewill



## SBG (Mar 19, 2007)

I identify myself as a two pointer...the T and the P of the tulip.

There is to much scripture that proves that a non-believer can reject the gospel and be ultimately eternally lost.

So there it is....who's next?


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## PWalls (Mar 19, 2007)

I'll take a stab at it.

T - Total Depravity - yes I believe in total depravity with a caveat. I believe that man by himself will never come to a realization of how bad he is. It takes the preaching of the Word and the interference of the Holy Spirit before a man can choose to accept the gift. That may be another form or definition (maybe limited depravity or something). I think the Calvinistic view of the "T" is such that man is even spiritually unable to respond to the Holy Spirit unless he was one of the "elect". I do not believe that, therefore, I added the caveat.

U - Unconditional Election - no I don't believe that God elected on certain individuals. I believe he predestinated us "all" from the beginning and ones that don't accept are going to burn.

L - Limited Atonement - no I don't believe that Christ died for only certain individuals. I believe he died for "all" again.

I - Irresistible Grace - no I don't believe in a call to certain individuals again. I believe that "all" have the choice to accept or deny the offer of Salvation.

P = Perserverance of the Saints - yes wholeheartedly. Once you are saved, you are saved no matter what.

Who's next?


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## PWalls (Mar 19, 2007)

Woodswalker said:


> nothing here but a question.
> 
> for the benefit of us commoners, is this what the old folks use to call the Five (5) Point Calvinism or something similar?
> 
> ...



Yes.

I am assuming I would be a 2 pointer like SBG (or at lease a 1-7/8).

But I think once you get under about a 4 point, you aren't really considered Calvinist anymore.


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## PWalls (Mar 19, 2007)

Woodswalker said:


> so, based upon the metrics, is there one point more important than the others, do you think?
> 
> i mean will any 4 trump the 5th?
> 
> ...



I believe that a Calvinist will tell you that yes they all work together.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

Pwalls- predestinate means to predetermine does it not? The destiny, ie, "destinate" is done befroehand, ie "pre"

You can't say God predestinates but then gives you a choice. Doesn't work that way my man. Either he did or he didn't. No in between.

Irresistable Grace- one example- Jesus called Lazarus, who came bound hand and foot. Did he have a choice to come? No, Christ called and he came. God's own word says those whom he foreknew and predestinated, HE CALLED AND WHO HE CALLED HE JUSTIFIED AND WHO HE JUSTIFIED HE GLORIFIED. So if he calls, your justified and glorified, else God lies.

Listen, all of you. First some simple points on where to start. TULIP is Good but lets start basic.

#1- Either man is spiritually dead or he is not. Can't be halway dead. He is either dead or alive. Now, for those of you who believe that man is spiritually dead but can accept Christ by the "stirring of the spirit", go shake something dead. You can not make something dead come alive, unless it has been reborn, quickened. Now, if FAITH is the FRUITOF THE SPIRIT, meaning comes from the Spirit, and is the GIFT OF GOD, how can you exercise it unless you have the spirit and before God gives it to you? You were born dead in trespasses and sins. Bible says you won't come to God unless he calls you. Well, why does he call? And who resists his calling? Cant do it boys. Either your dead or alive and the Bible is clear on this, your dead.

Christ comes to save HIS PEOPLE. ELECT OF GOD. What does elect mean. Chosen, simple and plain. 

In the above, where is man? Just where is man? HE IS NO WHERE IN THE EQUATION.

I've got to take my kids to ball practice but i will be back later to discuss this/.


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 19, 2007)

Good link to explain TULIP
and yes I'm a five pointer...actually I prefer being a 6th pointer
1) The Sovereign freedom of God
2)Total Depravity
3)Unconditional Election
4)Limited Atonement (I perfer "perfect" Atonement)
5)Irresistible Grace
6)Perseverance of the Saints


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 19, 2007)

Here's a link to more information on the 5 points including a great sermon by Spurgeon.

monergism.com


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 19, 2007)

Here's a site that puts both theological arguments side by side so you can see where this debate came from and what was decided at the time.

Calvinism and Arminianism

OK I'm done! Enjoy!


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## SBG (Mar 19, 2007)

PWalls said:


> Yes.
> 
> I am assuming I would be a 2 pointer like SBG (or at lease a 1-7/8).
> 
> But I think once you get under about a 4 point, you aren't really considered Calvinist anymore.



Funny! I'm a 1-7/8er too.

Yes tulip is an acrostic that is synonymous with 5-point Calvinism.


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## FishFanatic (Mar 19, 2007)

Addicted, are you primitive baptist also?  Just wondering.   Here is another question for the predestinate/predertimined/election.  Using the rationale of only certain people are elected.  There is a chance that I might not be saved at all.  If I chose to accept Christ's salvation, and have been following Him for the past six years, this could be all for not.  God may have not chosen me and I could be just a product of wishful thinking.   If this is the case, who have I been talking to for the past six years?


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## FishFanatic (Mar 19, 2007)

I have another question.  I have heard the term used by a certain denomination(I don't remember which), "frozen chosen."  Is this refering to election?


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 19, 2007)

FishFanatic said:


> Addicted, are you primitive baptist also?  Just wondering.   Here is another question for the predestinate/predertimined/election.  Using the rationale of only certain people are elected.  There is a chance that I might not be saved at all.  If I chose to accept Christ's salvation, and have been following Him for the past six years, this could be all for not.  God may have not chosen me and I could be just a product of wishful thinking.   If this is the case, who have I been talking to for the past six years?



No I'm not primitative baptist... I'm sort of in between a Presbyterian and Baptist.  I go to a Baptist church but hold to many Reformed views, and lean towards Covenantalism.  Big words to say "I'm a mess!".

As for  it "all being for not", don't believe it!
Scripture says those that are saved are sealed with the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 1:21-22). It then goes on to say that only those with the Holy Spirit will understand the word of God and more importantly obey it (1 John 5:2-3) . My favorite verse when I get doubt is 1 Corinthians 12:3
_Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit. _


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## StriperAddict (Mar 19, 2007)

FishFanatic said:


> I have another question.  I have heard the term used by a certain denomination(I don't remember which), "frozen chosen."  Is this refering to election?



I always thought it referred to some christians who won't "get up off thier blessed assurance" !


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## StriperAddict (Mar 19, 2007)

FishFanatic said:


> Addicted, are you primitive baptist also?  Just wondering.   Here is another question for the predestinate/predertimined/election.  Using the rationale of only certain people are elected.  There is a chance that I might not be saved at all.  If I chose to accept Christ's salvation, and have been following Him for the past six years, this could be all for not.  God may have not chosen me and I could be just a product of wishful thinking.   If this is the case, who have I been talking to for the past six years?



Let me ask you this...  if someone would give you a million dollars to blaspheme the name of Jesus openly, would you do it?

And, if you are even worried about if you ever did that at all, or are worried about a 'wishful thinking' salvation, I'd say you have quite a solid 'witness of the Holy Spirit' that you belong to God.   

What child of God would even consider these things?


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 19, 2007)

FishFanatic said:


> I have another question.  I have heard the term used by a certain denomination(I don't remember which), "frozen chosen."  Is this refering to election?



Yes this is in reference to those who are called "hyper Calvinists". Hyper-Calvinists believe that no evangelism is needed, there is no need to fulfill the Great Commission. God's elect will come on there own whenever the time is right. It goes against Romans 10:14.

Funny story, I worked with a Hyper-Calvinist missionary (too hard to explain). He would drive into villages in Mexico and sit in his truck believing that if there were any elect in the village they would seek Him out.  AND THEY DID!!! No joke, they would come up and ask "what must I do to be saved?". He'd share the gospel, they would weep in repentance and he would roll up the window and say "yeah, we'll see if it was real or not."  I couldn't believe how hard-headed he was. God can use anyone to speak the gospel.


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## FishFanatic (Mar 19, 2007)

StriperAddict said:


> Let me ask you this...  if someone would give you a million dollars to blaspheme the name of Jesus openly, would you do it?
> 
> And, if you are even worried about if you ever did that at all, or are worried about a 'wishful thinking' salvation, I'd say you have quite a solid 'witness of the Holy Spirit' that you belong to God.
> 
> *What child of God would even consider these things?*




I've never considered these things.  I know that I'm saved.  I was hypothetically speaking.  I just don't get the elected Christian view.  If anything, I can agree that God elected all of us by having His son die for all of us, so that we have have the choice of accepting Him.  

I'm going to be honest, looking at the other thread(the long one) and all the Biblical verses for election, I did not see any verses that seemed to be in your face, no doubt about it, type verses.  They all seemed to stretch.  On the other hand there were those in your face, no doubt about it verses for free will/choice.  Have the election individuals here thought about that at all?  The verses you have quoted are the type that require alot of interpretation?  They are not those cut and dry type that anyone reading it has to agree on.  

Here is another thought.  God created us to be with Him right?  In Eden, the plan was for us to have a personal relationship with Him.  Then sin crept in and the rest is history.  Why would God not want ALL of the people He created to be with Him in eternity?


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## JuliaH (Mar 19, 2007)

> Why would God not want ALL of the people He created to be with Him in eternity?



I think He DOES want all the people in eternity with him, in fellowship with Him, but I also think he gave us the ability to think and to choose. 

If God predestined all, or certain folks, to come to him no matter what.... just because He wanted it that way, then why the cross?  There would have been no need for the sacrifice of His only Son if he already had His mind made up on who was chosen and whose hearts he had hardened... sounds like divine puppetry to me 

Now, we do a lot of talking about what denomination, program, idealology (sp?) we follow. That is part of the problem... we are taught certain things by certain groups that we elect to follow down our respective Christian paths... nothing wrong with it, but we accept that "bias" as we debate. It is hard to read the Scripture and be totally unbiased as to how we take it... I know... I was saved in a Baptist church and I chuckle now on my attempts to go witnessing and get all the Catholics saved...I fully walked in the knowledge I had from that wonderful church. After all, it pretty much saved my life... 

But I have grown. Not away from the Baptists though I am not willing to be known as a Baptist now, but through them to more understanding... I was challenged years ago to read my Bible, just like I was reading a book and not thru the eyes of anything else than a person who loved Jesus and wanted to know more about Him... I have learned a lot.  I have been in several different churches and have found them all to be able to grasp well a certain amount of knowledge, but in all my years I have not found any that embraced all I would like to know. 

Sometimes I think I may never know enough... but I can wait till I get home and wait my turn to ask Jesus to clear up that dark glass I see thru...

So, yes, I think election and freewill both have a lot of truth, but somehow the answer is found by not choosing one or the other, but in my own trying to see the truth in each and apply it 

Julia


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## FishFanatic (Mar 19, 2007)

Good post Julia, and I do think that God wants all of us in heaven.  I was just using the question to make a point.  Your post is similar to my walk so far.  I too started at a small Baptist church and I do credit them for showing me the way to Christ.


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## Vernon Holt (Mar 19, 2007)

An elderly black Preacher while expounding on the Doctrine of Election made the following observation:

"Concerning the Doctrine of Election, the election is going on all the time.  God, he is votin' for you; and the devil he is votin' agin you, and which ever way you vote that is the way the election goes".

This gentle man of God does a pretty neat job of outlining the role of free will which God so graciously chose to endow man with.

I happen to believe as did the Apostle Paul in 1Timothy 2:3, 4, & 6 when he states:  "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; *who will have all men *to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  Jesus Christ, who gave himself a *ransom for all*, to be testified in due time"


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

wow, wished i'd have been here for this. I got a lot of catching up to do. So let's get started.

First, to Fishfanatic. How much of stretch is it when the Bible says" according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world"? What's the stretch there?

or 2nd Timothy verse 9

" Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE, WHICH WAS GIVEN US IN CHRIST JESUS BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN"

or John 17 verse 2

" As thou hast given him power over ALL FLESH, that he should give ETERNAL life to AS MANY AS THOU HAST GIVEN HIM"

So, as a starting point, Christ gives eternal life to whom? Those that were given him. Straight forward. Who gave them to Christ? God the father. Is there s definite number who are going to heaven? Yes. Keep in mind were talking about group that the Bible compares to the sands on a beach or the stars in the sky, not some small number. Those who get eternal life have been given to Christ. This is not a stretch. It is in plain English.

Now, how does one get in this group? Who are they? Why are they chosen? Well, the Bible clearly states that whoever they are, God chose them before the world began. Before the foundation of the world. His elect. We haven't gotten to the why they were chosen yet, only that a group was chosen. No one can deny that God made this decision before the world began because to do so would say the Bible is in error. Read the first few verses of Titus

Titus 1:1-3

Paul, a servant ofGod, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of GOD'S ELECT, and the ACKNOWLEDGING OF THE TRUTH which is after godliness, in hope of eternal life, WHICH GOD, THAT CANNOT LIE, PROMISED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN, but hath in due times manifested his word through preaching....."

These few verses shows that there is an elect and God promised eternal life before what? Before the world began. Pretty straightforward once again. Well, does God know who these people are? Let's look at that for a moment. Consider the following verses

2timothy verse 19

"nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, THE LORD KNOWETH THEM THAT ARE HIS......."

John 17:9

"JESUS'S OWN WORDS"
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, BUT FOR THEM WHICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME; for they are thine

Now, why is Christ not praying for the whole world but for only those whom the Father God has GIVEN Christ?

or when he says in John 10 26-28

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE AND I KNOW THEM, AND THEY FOLLOW ME: AND I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand"

So who are God's elect. I will refer to them as the sheep from here on out.

Ya'll following this?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

before i continue i am afraid your black preacher is incorrect because the Bible clearly states that the Election was before the world began, but that is another attempt to reconcile freewill and election. Can't be done. Continual election is going against what it says in the book itself.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

okay good. So how does one become a sheep. Well, either God chose them or man chooses to be in the fold. One or the other. We can all agree on that, right?

First, lets take a look at man.

Man is born dead in trespasses and sin. Correct? Physically alive but spiritually dead. The bible says he is wicked, corrupt, enmnity against God, will not come to God. He can not fellowship with God because he is flesh. Flesh is sin.

We agree so far?

Now, how can something dead come alive spiritually? Many say he feels convicted and asks God for forgiveness. If one reads about man's true nature as stated in the Bible, the Bible itself shows that this is impossible. You must exercise faith to be saved some say. Well, you can not have faith without having the spirit first. FAITH IS A FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT. Faith comes from spirit. So to those who believe you exercise faith first, you are saying you get the tree from the fruit instead of correctly pulling the fruit off the tree. 

Why would Jesus say ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep? Because they couldn't. Only the sheep are given the spirit and thus able to believe. God has seperated the sheep from others.

Read Romans Chapter 9 verse 21

" Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishomour?"

Paul asks the question does God have the right to make essentially a good lump of humanity and a bad lump of humanity? It is why a few verse before Paul figures someone would say "that isn't fair and God isn't fair". But he addresses by asking is there unrighteousness with God? His answer-GOD FORBID.

I'll pause for a second here.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 19, 2007)

So how is one chosen then?

The Bible says " according to the good pleasure of HIS WILL" .
That's from Ephesians. Later on down we see it stated in verse 7- according to the riches of HIS GRACE

verse 9- according to HIS GOOD PLEASURE WHICH HE PURPOSED IN HIMSELF

verse 11- according to the PURPOSE OF HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL

verse 19-according to the WORKING OF HIS MIGHTY POWER

Man's will or God's will? IF IT WERE UP TO US THESE STATEMENTS FROM THE BIBLE WOULD BE INCORRECT.

Let's look elsewhere.

Tim 2:9-...not according to our works, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE......

I can go on with this one. The decision was God's and by his own will. Now, either it is man's will or God's will.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

how do you know if you are one of the sheep? 

you hear his voice and you follow him. Why? Because you are his. The bible says the sheep are a purchased possession. No one can come to the Father unless he draws them,i.e. calls them. Many say yes he calls, but man can still disregard it. Did Lazarus? Jesus called and he came bound hand and foot, meaning he couldn't walk. He was dead. And yet he came. He had no choice in the matter. HE CAME. Remeber Christ's own words. "My sheep hear my voice and follow me" not "my sheep hear my voice and hopefully some will come" No, they come. As did all of you. Only difference is you like to think you had a choice in the matter but you didn't. Christ says you WILL COME. AND YOU DID.

PSALM 65:4

BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOM THOU CHOOSEST ( there's that word again ) and CAUSEST TO APPROACH UNTO THEE, that he may dwell in thy courts........

Wait a minute. God chooses? Makes one come? And they DO DWELL in his court? Where is man's choice that?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

Julia, the cross was still needed for the elect in much the same way as you believe now. Only remember, not everyone can nor will believe on it or in it. Also, i am afraid you can not reconcile freewill of men and God's election, for they are at odds and always will be. 

Until the morn! good night!


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

I believe the bible, taken in context and in its entirety, is obviously a book that teaches that man has freewill. There are so many verses that clearly teach that a person can reject the gospel.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

Ah SBG, look at it another way for a second. Read the verses again, only this time, with an open mind, act like you believe in election. You will see that yes you can reject and your punishment will be in this world, not the world to come.

Listen to what you said, you state the Bible teaches freewill. Why haven't you stated that the Bible does not teach election and predestination? Because you know its there.

So, either it's one or the other because it can't be both, ETERNALLY. Election shows that. So what then of freewill? If election concerns our heavenly place, then freewill must control our daily lives. Read the gospel this way and many of the verses you know will take on much different meanings.

I believe in the freewill of man. Very much. It is the freewill of man that caused God to act. He didn't leave it up to us because he knew we'd screw it up.


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## PWalls (Mar 20, 2007)

You talk as if us "freewillers" deny the workings of God. We realize that there is nothing we can do on our own. The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts us and makes us ready to accept Christ's gift of Salvation. Of course I didn't just wake up one day in my sinful nature and say "you know, I think I'll get saved today". The Holy Spirit had to work in my life for a long time to get me to a point of realization of my sinful nature and where I was going and what I was doing. I had to hear the Gospel. God had to work in my life before I was ready. Let me repeat that. God did the work. I did nothing other than become aware of what I was through His workings in my life (He made me realize what I was and where I was going) and then I acted upon the free gift He gave me (He did the work to give the gift).


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> Ah SBG, look at it another way for a second. Read the verses again, only this time, with an open mind, act like you believe in election. You will see that yes you can reject and your punishment will be in this world, not the world to come.
> 
> Listen to what you said, you state the Bible teaches freewill. Why haven't you stated that the Bible does not teach election and predestination? Because you know its there.
> 
> ...



Thanks for telling me what I think.  

No, election and predestination as was taught by Calvin is not in the Word. It is completely contrary to the nature of God. 

Calvin's doctrinal beliefs were entirely formed as a refutation of Catholicism-it was a knee jerk reaction to the obvious errors of the church of Rome. 

The bible must be interpreted in its entirety and not taken out of obvious context. 

Fortunately, for all of us, these are all secondary doctrinal issues.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 20, 2007)

I am a calvinist. I believe wholeheartedly in the 5 points of calvinism.

adpruitt2,

This has to be the best explaination I have ever read. You sure you are not Souveriegn Grace Landmark Independent Baptist?

Where do you go to church is it in Dawsonville, I would love to visit.

Thanks for the Great Reading!!!!

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 20, 2007)

Here is a good sermon/article by Spurgeon:

A Defense of Calvinism

DB BB


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## PWalls (Mar 20, 2007)

I actually like reading Spurgeon and Piper. Don't agree with some of their interpretation, but when I get past that, the rest is awesome. 

And like SBG says, I don't get hung up on it too much because I believe I am going to Heaven and if I believed as Calvin did I still think I would be one of the Elect.


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

I would have loved to heard CHS preach!


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## Adirondacker (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> ...
> 
> Now, how does one get in this group? Who are they? Why are they chosen? Well, the Bible clearly states that whoever they are, God chose them before the world began. Before the foundation of the world. His elect. We haven't gotten to the why they were chosen yet, only that a group was chosen. No one can deny that God made this decision before the world began because to do so would say the Bible is in error. Read the first few verses of Titus
> 
> ...




Actually, a careful search of the Scriptures will reveal that the elect of this current dispensation, the Body of Christ, were chosen before the foundation of the world while the elect of Israels' dispensation were chosen FROM the foundation of the world. Both groups are chosen by God and saved by grace alone. Each of these two groups are saved to unique hopes. Israel will (future) rule and reign on the earth over the elect Gentiles (ie. Job, Noah, and others) with Christ/Messiah as their King sitting on the Father's third heavenly Thrown. The body of Christ will rule and  reign with Christ from that Thrown. 

True Israel  has been elected and saved to an earthly hope and the hope of the Body of Christ is to rule and reign with Him from the third heaven. 

Those that are not elect are destined to eternal ImadummyImadummyImadummyImadummy fire by a Just, Holy, Righteous, and all knowing Creator God. To  limited, mortal, humans this concept of election sounds/appears arbitrary, but is not. We hear scoffers all the time saying, "how can a righteous God allow....", or "if God is love how can He allow...". These human beings sit in judgment of God who is not accountable to us in the least smidgen of a way. By His grace He has chosen to reveal many eternal truths to us , but not all. To believe we can see/understand/know all of God's ways would make us as god's. This lie of Satan that we can/could/ should be as god's is the lie that led to the fall in the Garden. 

Search the scriptures and see. His Word is wondrous and rich.

Helpful sites:

www.tgfonline.org
www.lesfeldick.org/ 
[/LIST]


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 20, 2007)

SBG said:


> I would have loved to heard CHS preach!



Me too Brother!!!

DB BB


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## habersham hammer (Mar 20, 2007)

To those that believe that God chooses certain ones to go to heaven let me say this.

If this is true, why preach another sermon, teach another lesson, witness to another soul, attend church, etc.

If God has already chosen them , then we are wasting our time trying to reach anybody, because they will make it in anyway.


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## Vernon Holt (Mar 20, 2007)

I believe that adpruitt2 has repeated this so many times that he is beginning to believe it himself.

Anyone who believes that John 3:16 does not mean what it says, still has a ways to go.

Makes one wonder what odd twist he will apply to Revelation 3:20:  "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him and sup with him, and he with me".

Or to Revelation 22:17:  "And the Spirit and the bride say come.  And let him that heareth say, come and whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely".

Matthew 10:32:  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven".

Mark 16:16:  "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed".

Matthew 11:28:  "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest".

These are all the words of the Lord Jesus.  If we cannot believe and accept his words, who shall we believe?  Praise his name!!


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

Vernon Holt said:


> I believe that adpruitt2 has repeated this so many times that he is beginning to believe it himself.
> 
> Anyone who believes that John 3:16 does not mean what it says, still has a ways to go.
> 
> ...



Amen Mr. Vernon...and those are just a few.


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## habersham hammer (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm totally against the teachings of Calvinsim, but I'll be glad to share and enjoy heaven with those of you that do believe it.

I believe it is "whosever will" and I can guarantee  you that upon the authority of God's word and the witness of the Holy Spirit that I will make it in, without John Calvin or his teachings, but rather through the blood of Christ and the finished work of Calvary.


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 20, 2007)

habersham hammer said:


> To those that believe that God chooses certain ones to go to heaven let me say this.
> 
> If this is true, why preach another sermon, teach another lesson, witness to another soul, attend church, etc.
> 
> If God has already chosen them , then we are wasting our time trying to reach anybody, because they will make it in anyway.



Umm because God told us to.
God has chosen that those whom he has chosen will hear the gospel through the telling of it by their fellow man (see great commission, Acts 1:8; Romans 10:14-15).

We are to be witnesses of what God has done. 

A few questions to free willers:
Free willers state that God wishes all men to be saved, so because God himself states men and women go to He!!, did God fail?
How can God not be able to save all He wishes too or died for? Is He weaker than man's desire or will?

What do you do with verses like Acts 13:48?
_Act 13:48  And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. _
KJV is ordained. Ordained or appointed occurs before belief, in other words belief only occurs because one was appointed or ordained to believe.

and John 6:37;39


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## habersham hammer (Mar 20, 2007)

*a quote taken from brethren on line*

The Dangers of Extreme Calvinism
One of the issues that the Christian Church has had to face over the years is the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism. One side says that Gods election (choosing) is the ultimate path to salvation, while the other side says that mans free-will desires salvation.
This debate is quickly spilling over into our New Testament assemblies. Assemblies have usually taken a middle of the road position on this issue. We see the truths of God choosing (Romans 11:7) and man choosing (Matthew 23:37 and Luke 18:22,23) both taught in Scripture. And if we dont completely understand how these two concepts fit together, we still accept all that the Bible has to say about this issue.

Yet there are some within our assemblies who are pushing us to take a more Calvinistic view. Some are graduates of the schools we have supported, and some have simply fallen under the sway of well meaning but extremely zealous Calvinists. I write this article because I am afraid that extreme Calvinism has serious consequences, and is going to damage many assemblies over the next few years, and will cause much disunity and many splits.

Perhaps the greatest danger of extreme Calvinism is its obsessive nature. While some who hold this view possess fine Christian character, many can talk about little else. They will push the doctrine of election when they preach, when they pray and when they worship. Some will even push for the adoption of this doctrine to become a test of fellowship. Some assemblies, having fallen under the influence of strong Calvinists, now declare that a man cannot be an elder until he has understood Gods sovereign grace (which is a euphemism for adopting a strongly Calvinist position). It is probable that these people will feel that other Christians have a defective view of Gods sovereignty.

Another danger concerns how extreme Calvinists deal with Scripture. Any verse that seems to imply human decision must be explained away or made to fit into some sophisticated theory. Some verses are radically reinterpreted. For example, an extreme Calvinist would say that the gift in Ephesians 2:8,9 is faith, not salvation. They will tell us that references to world, as in John 3:16, do not actually refer to all men, but only the elect.

A third danger concerns how the Gospel is preached. We are thankful for every Calvinist who sees the need to preach the Gospel (and most do see this need), but we might be surprised at some of what they say. Instead of calling out for sinners to repent and make their decision today, they will pray that God would give them grace. It is likely that a sinner would be confused at what the Calvinist is saying. An extreme Calvinist can never tell a sinner that God loves them and wants to save them, because in their system of theology, God only loves some. The extreme Calvinist will never tell sinners that Christ died to save them, because under their system of theology, Christs atonement is limited, and He only died for some.

The final danger of extreme Calvinism is that it presents an unbiblical viewpoint of the character of God. Some in the Calvinist camp, including Arthur W. Pink, and even John Calvin himself believed that God creates people for the purpose of ****ing them. If this was the teaching of Scripture, we would be forced to accept it, but it is not. Such views are the speculations of theological extremists.

The relationship between Gods election and mans choosing is a deep one. There are no easy answers. But both truths are taught in Scripture. Calvinists are not cultists, but brothers and sisters who have taken a Biblical truth to an unbiblical extreme. Calvinism, in its extreme form has very serious consequences, and those who shepherd the believers, as well as all Christians who love the Word of God and the Gospel, must guard against those who would push us into a dangerously one-sided position.


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## Twenty five ought six (Mar 20, 2007)

This debate is a logical conundrum that cannot be resolved by reference to the  Bible or logical analysis.

If God is all knowing, and has no beginning or end, then he has to know who will be saved and who will not.  If this were not true, it would be a limitation on the omniscient nature of God.  So if this is true, as a result of God's omniscience, some people are "predestined" or "elected" to be saved.

Likewise, "free will" represents a limitation on God's omniscience and omnipotence.  However, an omnipotent God can limit his own power, and when he created mankind (humankind for the PC crowd) God voluntarily did this.  The whole concept of the fall from grace HAS to be based on free will (lack of foreknowledge by God); otherwise the whole Garden of Eden story would be the result of a capricious and cruel God.

My personal belief is that we are "elected" or "predestined" to salvation, because to believe otherwise denies the omniscience of God.  I also believe that we have the free will to reject that election, and to believe otherwise denies the entire creation story.  Free will is what separates us from the lower animals.  They are all predestined to their fates, and there is nothing they can do about it.  So to deny free will is to reduce us to the animal state of preordination, predestination, election or whatever you want to call it.

The fallacy of the proponents of predestination (election) is that there is some way that we as individuals or collectively as churches, communities, whatever, can determine who is elected.  Inevitably any description of the theology (note the root "theo") of election resolves to a set of beliefs and practices of the "elect". This means that imperfect man can discern a decision that was made by God before time began.

Also the inevitable internal conflict in the concept of election is that it relieves the believer of responsibility. Although various proponents of election try to argue around this inevitable conclusion, the bottom line is that if one is elected, and free will is not a component of salvation, the individual has no responsibility for his personal salvation.  I've engaged in this debate for 30 + years, and the inevitable result of the discussion is that the believer _has _to do something else to be saved.  This something else always involves free will-- the option of the unsaved to do it or not.


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 20, 2007)

The term Arminian is an eponym, which means it is derived from the name of person (e.g. 'Lutheran' from Martin Luther). Primarily it refers to a system of doctrinal distinctives which originated from the disputes raised by Jacob Arminius against the Dutch Reformed schools and traditions in the sixteenth-century, doctrines which were further developed and propagated by his followers from the seventeenth century through to today, beginning essentially with the Remonstrants of 1610.

Arminian distinctives

The Remonstrance of 1610

ARTICLE I: That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ, his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ's sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him," and according to other passages of Scripture also.

ARTICLE II: That, agreeably thereto, Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption, and the forgiveness ef sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins, except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16: "God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"; and in the First Epistle of John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only. but also for the sins of the whole world."

ARTICLE III: That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free-will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John 15:5: "Without me ye can do nothing."

ARTICLE IV: That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of an good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting; awakening, following, and co-operative grace, elm neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost -- Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places.

ARTICLE V: That those who an incorporated into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his lifegiving spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory, it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand; and if only they are ready for the conflict. and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled, nor plucked out of Christ's hands, according to the word of Christ, John 10:28: "Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginnings of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scriptures before we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our minds.

Problems With Arminian Theology

View on Freedom

In Arminian theology, the idea of foreordination is repulsive; because the Arminian believes that it makes God the author of sin and denys agents of free agency. To support this, the Arminian is forced to resort to a view of Molinism to explain the relationship between God's exhaustive foreknowledge and free (libertarian) agency. The problem is that the Bible does not proscribe to a view of such freedom. This philosophical view is a presupposition carried into Arminian theological conclusions. The Biblical nature of agency is that God's foreknowledge (and all of the future) flows from His decree.

There is still the issue that, even if Molinism was true, there is still the fact that as an agent acts, it has been known from eternity past what that action will be. In fact, Open Theism is heresy, but is the logical extension of Arminianism (in that it deals with Arminian logical fallacies).

In denying a compatiblistic view of freedom, the Arminian is forced to admit that God ended up with inerrant Scriptures purely out of luck and coincidence. Because according to the libertarian view of freedom, the author could always have chose otherwise. They would have to admit this to be theologically consistent.

"Limiting" Unlimited Atonement

The Arminian finds the doctrine of limited atonement repulsive and therefore the Remonstrace was built around the presupposition of libertarian freedom (from above) and also that Christ did die for the sins of all (except for unbelief). What the Arminian fails to realize is that his theological system is still constrained to a limited atonement.

Even if God did choose in a conditional fashion according to His sight of our future response, there is still an elect today in this world! That is to say, there is a group of people that will and will not respond. To support this, universal prevenient grace must be effective; but the only text they point to for this is John 12:32 to which speaks nothing of prevenient grace (whether universal or limited in scope).

"Let there be no misunderstanding at this point. The Arminian limits the atonement as certainly as does the Calvinist. The Calvinist limits the extent of it in that he says it does not apply to all persons…while the Arminian limits the power of it, for he says that in itself it does not actually save anybody. The Calvinist limits it quantitatively, but not qualitatively; the Arminian limits it qualitatively, but not quantitatively. For the Calvinist it is like a narrow bridge that goes all the way across the stream; for the Arminian it is like a great wide bridge that goes only half-way across. As a matter of fact, the Arminian places more severe limitations on the work of Christ than does the Calvinist."
Lorraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination

Justification and A Fall From Grace

The doctrine of one's ability to lose their salvation brings into question how much of the Arminian conception of salvation is truly by grace through faith alone. If one can lose their salvation, what does that say of God's justification? What about the imputation of Christ's righteousness? If God knew you were going to fall away, would He truly bother justifying and imputing His Son's righteousness to you?


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## Adirondacker (Mar 20, 2007)

habersham hammer said:


> To those that believe that God chooses certain ones to go to heaven let me say this.
> 
> If this is true, why preach another sermon, teach another lesson, witness to another soul, attend church, etc.
> 
> If God has already chosen them , then we are wasting our time trying to reach anybody, because they will make it in anyway.



We preach because God through His word commands us to do so and to be prepared to give an account for the hope that we have. Paul proclaimed his gospel and those that were destined to be saved that day hear and respond. Those to whom God did not "give ears" to that day do not, in fact they cannot. They hear the truth, know its true, but hold that truth in unrighteousness. To be chosen before the foundation of the earth is not to be saved on the day you are born, that day of salvation is chosen by God and brought about completely by His grace and power. His salvation power make us capable of understanding and responding to the truth otherwise fallen man would not be utterly lost. 

Just because God knows who is and will be saved does not mean we do. We are responsible to proclaim the Gospel. It does not follow that because God has prechosen some to election  that we are to not try to present the Gospel truth.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 20, 2007)

habersham hammer said:


> The Dangers of Extreme Calvinism
> One of the issues that the Christian Church has had to face over the years is the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism. One side says that Gods election (choosing) is the ultimate path to salvation, while the other side says that mans free-will desires salvation.
> This debate is quickly spilling over into our New Testament assemblies. Assemblies have usually taken a middle of the road position on this issue. We see the truths of God choosing (Romans 11:7) and man choosing (Matthew 23:37 and Luke 18:22,23) both taught in Scripture. And if we dont completely understand how these two concepts fit together, we still accept all that the Bible has to say about this issue.
> 
> ...



HH,

I would agree EXTREME/HYPER Calvinism is very dangerous.


Romans chapter 9

Is is speculation that God hardened Pharoh's heart?

Hath not the potter have power over the clay?

Can He not make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?

"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion"

To the free-willers:
Why is it that God doesn't have the ability to choose who He wishes to recieve the gift of salvation, and who doesn't?

Isn't God a just God?

Is His thinking like our thinking?

How can Man(humans) apply humanistic thinking to God, when God's ways are not our ways?

I will stop there for right now...kinda busy here are work....

DB BB


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 20, 2007)

Twenty five ought six said:


> Likewise, "free will" represents a limitation on God's omniscience and omnipotence.  However, an omnipotent God can limit his own power, and when he created mankind (humankind for the PC crowd) God voluntarily did this.  The whole concept of the fall from grace HAS to be based on free will (lack of foreknowledge by God); otherwise the whole Garden of Eden story would be the result of a capricious and cruel God.
> 
> My personal belief is that we are "elected" or "predestined" to salvation, because to believe otherwise denies the omniscience of God.  I also believe that we have the free will to reject that election, and to believe otherwise denies the entire creation story.  Free will is what separates us from the lower animals.  They are all predestined to their fates, and there is nothing they can do about it.  So to deny free will is to reduce us to the animal state of preordination, predestination, election or whatever you want to call it.
> 
> ...



First both sides agree to Free Will.
Free will is the ability to choose righteousness.
One side say it is bound due to the fall of man in the garden and it can only be released through the grace of God.

The other side says that man still has the ability to choose righteousness, in spite of the fact scripture says there  is none righteous.

In order for us to reject something God has choosen for us means our will is stronger than His. How does that work when he describes us as clay in His hands? (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Romans).
How does clay ever determine what it will be?

Free will does not separate us form the animals. It is that we are a separate creation, made in His image with the breath of God within us.

Election properly taught teaches the church that we are to witness to all because no one can know who God will save.
Election means if God elected to save me He can save anyone, because it is left to Him alone not to any work that I do. If someone claims salvation I believe God has elected him/her. Election teaches me that God can save the most vile of sinners because it is up to God not man.

Yes I am not responsible for salvation, how can anyone be? I did not die on the cross for my sins, Jesus did. He is responsible for salvation.  For me to be responsible for my salvation would mean I have to go something for it (that is works, which goes against scripture).I am responsible for my sins and the guilt and consequences of them before a Holy God.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

i go fishing for a few and then get beat up while i'm gone. Just kidding.

Okay freewillers, i say that in jest, let's go.

First, Pwalls, if it's a FREE GIFT, why must you act upon it? It's not free if you must do something. Your own words state the obvious, i became aware. Still, in order to claim the free gift you had to ............? Not free my man if its like that.

Second, SBG, I'm not a Calvinists. I'm a Primitive Baptist. There are differences. However, if you people think John Calvin started election and predestination, you are sorely misinformed. Ever read Augustine? Fifth century stuff, well before John Calvin. He was pure Doctrine of Grace alone.  Augustine held that God's election and predestination of the sinner to eternal life were altogether of free and unmerited grace, and not at all dependant on the sinner's repentance, faith, or good works. HMMMMM? Fifth century. Who was he knee jerking his reaction to? Ya'll really don't want to get in a history argument because freewill doesn't appear in the Church until Catholicism runs with it and that is very provable. Heck, anybody wanna guess who the first freewill preacher in the Baptist church was? I can give you his name, and the date, and the great fact that he had to baptize himself because no other Baptist preacher would believe what he was saying. But that's another thread.

Third, sightron, the Bible clearly claims preaching, going to church, worship is for the edification of the saints, not the saving of.

Fourth, Vernon, John 3:16 is the most misqouted verse in the Bible. I really think your people, i.e., freewill, have repeated it so many times they believe it. First, God so loved the world. I have said this earlier, the Greek word for world in this verse is kosmos. This word does not mean the entire world. Kosmos definition is an orderly arrangement. Period. It is from the root word komizo. Komizo definition means to tend. Or in modern english, his arrangement which he cares for.. Next, that whosoever believeth in him. That is correct but just who can believe in him? Only those who the Father calls to him and yes they believe. That's not Danny Pruitt theology. The bible states that and i've already expounded on that above. But have everlasting life.Everlasting is different from eternal is it not. Everlasting has a starting point and continues on. Correct. They are reconciled with God and can now worship with him. It means nothing about eternal life. Wanna know how i know? Read the verse right before it. 3:15 speaks of eternal life. Does it say whosoever believes, yep sure does. So why do you not qoute that one? But go back a little further. Jesus is talking of earthly things? He just explained to Nicodemus that his eyes were opened because he knew who Jesus was. Ya'll kind of butcher that story too. What does he say to Nicodemus? Man if you can't believe about the stuff here, how you gonna believe about heavenly stuff? Now, why would he say being born again is earthly stuff? Because it is. Being born again is the receiving of the spirit here on Earth. Awakened, quickened. But it's not heavenly stuff. Jesus just said so. His words, not mine. So what does he do. He uses the story of Moses in the wilderness. What happened when Moses lift up the serphent in the wilderness. They were saved when they looked upon it. Saved eternally? No. They were saved from the present condition they were in. They were seperated from God here in this world. And so, when one looks at the cross and believes, because God has chosen him to do so, they are saved from their present condition, i.e, being separated from God here on Earth. Now they can fellowship with him. The spirit of life is given them but only because God has chosen them to receive it.

Vernon ever verse you gave is true. I agree with everyone of them. However, you feel like anybody can hear God's call and he says you can't. Jesus says only those whom the father hath given me, Jesus is talking to people telling them you don't believe because ye are not of my sheep, Paul and Peter both expound god's choice, being elect. To deny God's election is to deny his word. Period. Anybody who says it is continual, show me one verse where it does not state election was before the foundation of the world. You can't. It's not there. Believe me, I've looked.

Fifth, sighttron, no doubt i believe you'll be there. But if it's the FINISHED WORK of calvary, why is there still more to do?

Sixth, back to history SBG, Calvin did not expound on something new, just something that had been hidden by the catholic church for many,many years.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 20, 2007)

Maybe it should be called the 5 points of Augustineism, instead of calvinism...

DB BB


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

Can't have both, one or the other. I believe all of us will be there but you can not reconcile the two. You can't do away with God's election, or his decrees. That's plum silly. That is giving man more power than God and is more dangerous than any hyperCalvinism. And sightron Dangers? Dude, is it really dangerous?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

I just call it the Bible


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> i Ya'll really don't want to get in a history argument because freewill doesn't appear in the Church until Catholicism runs with it and that is very provable.



Just the opposite is true. There are those that held to the gospel once delivered to the saints since Christ ascended. Those are the ones that were persecuted by the RCC and the reformists. 

I realize that this is a difficult subject. Heck, it has been debated for centuries. Ultimately it comes down to spiritual discernment and the unction of the Holy Ghost.

I'm am convinced that the bible is clear on the nature of God and His sovereignty. There is no more ultimate display of sovereignty than that of almighty God giving His creatures the ability and liberty to reject Him. 

BTW...reverting to the use of greek is completely contrary to the principle that God revealed to Paul in 1st Corinthians:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

God made His word perfect and clear to those that will rely on Him for guidance. No degree in greek, latin, aramaic, etc. is necessary.


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> I just call it the Bible



I'm really enjoying reading your posts. Double barrel BB keep them coming as well. Good points both of you!

On a personal note whoever nicknamed these doctrines of grace "Calvinism" really made it hard.

For those who like history check the council of Orange, well before Calvin,  yet states everything that "Calvinism" states.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

i love debating this stuff, in good nature of course, because it forces one to study and examine their own as well as others beliefs.

Now as for the group that held the gospel, i agree. But they weren't free will. 

As for your last comment, I believe that those who would reject are they lump to dishonour and that those whom he causes to believe are the lump of honour. Either way, the potter made them thus. You think you've got liberty. You think you've got choice. But did you really? I mean, hey, i was raised a freewill person. I know both sides of the argument. Think back to your "conversion". Did you really have a choice? Some say, yeah, i could've said no. But you didn't. Why? You might say i loved the lord. Why? You might say i was convicted of my sins. Why? You might say i want to go to heaven. Why? And once these things started happening, maybe you ran from it. It's possible i guess one would say. Is it? I caught all of you. Why? Because you can't escape God's calling. You might have given up the fight but you would have lost anyway.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

just rest assured he loved you before you were born, before the world was created. Not everyone will be able to say that.


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> Now as for the group that held the gospel, i agree. But they weren't free will.



I will have to respectfully disagree. Read Foxes book of Martyrs and then research the theology of some of those that were killed. Many were correctly freewill and can trace that belief back extant to the ascension.

All of the examples that you have provided Danny have been explored and debated for years. I still must rely on the discernment given by God. That discernment allows me the peace that passeth all understanding in regards to salvation. I am thankful that God did call me to salvation and empowered me with the ability to repent. I am also thankful that His word makes it abundantly clear that I coule have chosen to reject such great a salvation.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

But you didn't. WHY?

Read that book. Try reading Hassell's Church History. Much different view.

Still, love talking with ya about it.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

double barrel, i go to Boiling Springs Primitive Baptist Church in Alpharetta, Ga.


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> But you didn't. WHY?




Why didn't I what? Reject the gospel?

God allowed me to be saved and I accepted.


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## habersham hammer (Mar 20, 2007)

I feel sorry for those of you that have such a weak kneed God that is only capable of saving a certain few.

I serve an "all powerful" God that is able to save "whosever" will.

Accept him today and have complete assurance that the God I serve is able to save to the uttermost all who believe.

If I believed like some of you, I could not sleep at night , knowing I had such a wimpy God.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

That's funny Sightron. Doesn't even merit an educated response. I don't need any sympathy from you.

SBG, why didn't you reject him is my question.

And by the way sightron, we've had this whole heated debate without anyone insulting or stuff like that, so if you can't hold to that, find somewhere else to post.


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> SBG, why didn't you reject him is my question.



Because I exercised the liberty of freewill.

The same way satan did...and Adam and Eve...and the certain young ruler of Luke 18...and King Agrippa...and those that were bade to the certain man's supper in Luke 14...and all of Jerusalem when Christ wept over city and said:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 

Emphsis mine.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm gonna frustrate you but did you? I mean, really, did you really have a choice? Are you saying you could refuse Almighty God telling you to get your rear over here?

Question, how did people before Christ get saved? And please don't give me that he went into the Earth and preached the gospel to the dead because that's not in the bible, nowhere. So, how did they?

Also, if a man never hears Christ's gospel preached and he dies, heaven or ImadummyImadummyImadummyImadummy?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

i hate that! If we can't say ImadummyImadummyImadummyImadummy in a religious forum than how pc can we get?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

i'm not a dummy


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> i'm not a dummy


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## habersham hammer (Mar 20, 2007)

*ad*

I'm not insulting you, I'm insulting your God


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## habersham hammer (Mar 20, 2007)

*ad*

Believe me I know how to act.

I was posting on here, before you had ever heard of Woody's.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

Well, if your insulting my God, then i don't guess you do. I really could care less how long you've been here or how old you may be. 

I would rather you insult me.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

SBG, you laughing at me or with me?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

Oh yeah, hammer, a wimpy God is one who lets man dictate his actions. Kind of like parents who let the kids rule the roost. Mine is not one of them. If you don't think its fair, read Romans. 9th chapter pretty much sums it up. He really doesn't need any help.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

I have respect for SBG and others on here who use educated logic to present their argument. We might not agree, but we aren't acting like jerks to each other.


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## Twenty five ought six (Mar 20, 2007)

> There is no more ultimate display of sovereignty than that of almighty God giving His creatures the ability and liberty to reject Him.



What he said.



> Genesis 3:5"For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."





> Genesis 3:22  And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."





> That is giving man more power than God and is more dangerous than any hyperCalvinism.



No it doesn't.  The fact that God is willing to _share_ an infinitesimally  small piece his power doesn't make one "more" powerful.


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> SBG, you laughing at me or with me?



With you! Try the he double hockey sticks.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

where was god willing to share in that?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

i read no where in that verse section where god was willing to share. Man disobeyed God. Is that what you are calling "sharing"


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

seems to me if he was in a sharing mood he'd have let them eat from the tree of life.


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## HuntinTom (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> i hate that! If we can't say ImadummyImadummyImadummyImadummy in a religious forum than how pc can we get?



It's not being PC - It's a filter on the entire forum that has the word He!! blocked - It cannot be adjusted to just the spiritual support forum, and the management knows that if the word is opened from being censored it will surely be abused in the other forums with an intent far from the way it could be used here...  I know, it gripes the ImadummyImadummyImadummyImadummy out of me too  -- But, it's a small price to pay for such a great place to post


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

first verse is the devil talking right?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

i understand completely. I was just being funny


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

if he was willing to share, why get punished for it? Not much sense with that one. There are better verses for your argument.


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

HuntinTom said:


> It's not being PC - It's a filter on the entire forum that has the word He!! blocked - It cannot be adjusted to just the spiritual support forum, and the management knows that if the word is opened from being censored it will surely be abused in the other forums with an intent far from the way it could be used here...  I know, it gripes the ImadummyImadummyImadummyImadummy out of me too  -- But, it's a small price to pay for such a great place to post



Amen!


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## HuntinTom (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> i understand completely. I was just being funny



It's difficult to tell without the smileys    I'm also having a difficult time following your posts that are in response to many other posts -- Can you use the "quote" feature so we know who you are replying to and not have to go back through so many posts trying to figure it out?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

okay. never done that before but i will start. Didn't realize anyone was following this


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

how do you do that?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> how do you do that?


 
i figure it out. thanks i think


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 20, 2007)

habersham hammer said:


> I feel sorry for those of you that have such a weak kneed God that is only capable of saving a certain few.
> 
> I serve an "all powerful" God that is able to save "whosever" will.
> 
> ...



That's the whole point. Those who believe in a sovereign God beleive He can save whomever He chooses to save. he is not limited by our choice. 

Those who believe that God can only save whomever chooses, limit God to only be able to do whatever the will of man chooses.

I agree with you I could not sleep at night with a God that is controlled or held in check by the will of His creation.


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> i figure it out. thanks i think



You're an old pro now!


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

SBG said:


> You're an old pro now!


 
Thanks. Even though i'm one of those crazy predestination guys, do i get to be in the club?

Now i need to learn how to get my pictures on here. Actually, the fishing forum. Haven't mastered that one yet.

Better sermonator?


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## HuntinTom (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> Better sermonator?



Much


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## HuntinTom (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> Thanks.  do i get to be in the club?



That has yet to be determined   Get it? Pre-Determined -- I crack myself up sometimes in the midst of these deep theological discussions...  Resume....


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> do i get to be in the club?



Your choice..no one is forcing you!


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 20, 2007)

ya'll are too much....


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 20, 2007)

HuntinTom said:


> That has yet to be determined   Get it? Pre-Determined -- I crack myself up sometimes in the midst of these deep theological discussions...  Resume....



Well done!


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

I have to admit that was funny.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

habersham hammer said:


> I feel sorry for those of you that have such a weak kneed God that is only capable of saving a certain few.
> 
> I serve an "all powerful" God that is able to save "whosever" will.
> 
> ...




I agree, that their beliefs has a direct correlation to  what they think God's personality is like. He used the word weak kneed. I think it would take a control freak, unsecure,weak and unjust person to act in the manner they are describing of God. It is definitly not close to the God I serve and believe in. What if a parent had 10 children. He chose four of them to recieve his inhertance and to run the family business. The other 6 he told would have no inhertance and could take no part in family affairs, regardless of their abilities or efforts. 2 of the 4 did not want to work in the family business, but he forced them to regardless. He did not care and wouldn't give them a choice; he wanted it his way. I would think that is the worst father in the world.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 20, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> I agree, that their beliefs has a direct correlation to  what they think God's personality is like. He used the word weak kneed. I think it would take a control freak, unsecure,weak and unjust person to act in the manner they are describing of God. It is definitly not close to the God I serve and believe in. What if a parent had 10 children. He chose four of them to recieve his inhertance and to run the family business. The other 6 he told would have no inhertance and could take no part in family affairs, regardless of their abilities or efforts. 2 of the 4 did not want to work in the family business, but he forced them to regardless. He did not care and wouldn't give them a choice; he wanted it his way. I would think that is the worst father in the world.




We can't assume God thinks like us, we can't humanize God.... Just like us humans can never be gods, because we have too much humanity in us.....

DB BB


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## Adirondacker (Mar 20, 2007)

habersham hammer said:


> I feel sorry for those of you that have such a weak kneed God that is only capable of saving a certain few.
> 
> I serve an "all powerful" God that is able to save "whosever" will.
> 
> ...



Hab, with respect, if your God is all powerful, are all saved? If yes then why preach the Gospel and why not eat, drink, and be merry..."? 

If no, then He must not be that powerful. Or at lest not powerful enough to save a person against there free will. That would make free will sovereign. 

I sleep very well trusting that the God I serve (by His grace) knows more than my puny mind can comprehend and has so ordered the universe that His purposes are always carried out according to His meticulous plan.


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 20, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> I agree, that their beliefs has a direct correlation to  what they think God's personality is like. He used the word weak kneed. I think it would take a control freak, unsecure,weak and unjust person to act in the manner they are describing of God. It is definitly not close to the God I serve and believe in. What if a parent had 10 children. He chose four of them to recieve his inhertance and to run the family business. The other 6 he told would have no inhertance and could take no part in family affairs, regardless of their abilities or efforts. 2 of the 4 did not want to work in the family business, but he forced them to regardless. He did not care and wouldn't give them a choice; he wanted it his way. I would think that is the worst father in the world.



God doesn't describe us as Children until we are saved by Him.

Before Salvation we are:
enemies of God-Romans 5:10
children of wrath-Ephesians 2:3
deserving of his wrath- Romans 5:9; 2:5; John 3:36
hostile towards Him- Romans 8:7

Those whom God saves get the right to be called children through Christ's atoning work.
Galatians 3:26; 4:4-8; Romans 8:14-17

If all humanity were children of God why does the Bible refer to those who Christ saved as being adopted?


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## PWalls (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> First, Pwalls, if it's a FREE GIFT, why must you act upon it? It's not free if you must do something. Your own words state the obvious, i became aware. Still, in order to claim the free gift you had to ............? Not free my man if its like that.



Sure it is. When I get a present/gift handed to me out from under the Christmas Tree, I can freely accept it or I can freely put it back (since I normally need underwear, I go ahead and take it). I had to act to accept the gift, or I had to act to refuse it. In either case, it's a gift for me to do something with.

God allows me the choice to spend eternity with Him or to spend eternity without Him. He doesn't just say "OK Philip, I'll take you and Russ and Donnie, but I don't think I want Sam and John and Larry". We were created for a relationship with God. Period. Why would He create some of us to enjoy that relationship and others to be condemned for never having a chance to experience it?


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 20, 2007)

PWalls said:


> Sure it is. When I get a present/gift handed to me out from under the Christmas Tree, I can freely accept it or I can freely put it back (since I normally need underwear, I go ahead and take it). I had to act to accept the gift, or I had to act to refuse it. In either case, it's a gift for me to do something with.
> 
> God allows me the choice to spend eternity with Him or to spend eternity without Him. He doesn't just say "OK Philip, I'll take you and Russ and Donnie, but I don't think I want Sam and John and Larry". We were created for a relationship with God. Period. Why would He create some of us to enjoy that relationship and others to be condemned for never having a chance to experience it?



Then explain God hardening Pharoh's heart?

DB BB


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## Ramblin' Wreck (Mar 20, 2007)

Correct me if Im wrong but if God had to harden the Pharoh's heart wouldnt that mean that God was changing someone's freewill, which would mean he was not predestined


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 20, 2007)

PWalls said:


> Sure it is. When I get a present/gift handed to me out from under the Christmas Tree, I can freely accept it or I can freely put it back (since I normally need underwear, I go ahead and take it). I had to act to accept the gift, or I had to act to refuse it. In either case, it's a gift for me to do something with.



Why would a dead man reject life?

Could a dead man reject life?

_Eph 2:1  And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 
Eph 2:2  in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 
Eph 2:3  among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 
Eph 2:4  But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 
Eph 2:5  even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- 
Eph 2:6  and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 
Eph 2:7  so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 
Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 
Eph 2:9  not a result of works, so that no one may boast. _

Notice verse 5- While we were still dead God made us alive in Christ. No choice, now which one of us here really would rather return to death. Ridiculous!

Notice verse 8 and 9- no part of salvation is up to us, to choose is a work, an act. Scripture in clear no works lead to salvation.

Salvation is from God, fulfilled by God, kept by God, for God's glory alone.
All who are saved are just recipients of this wonderful grace, not active participants. We can't be we are dead before salvation, how can a dead man do anything but be dead?

We are to glorify this great God for giving us what we do not deserve, and can not achieve on our own.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 20, 2007)

Ramblin' Wreck said:


> Correct me if Im wrong but if God had to harden the Pharoh's heart wouldnt that mean that God was changing someone's freewill, which would mean he was not predestined



If all of man(humans) had freewill, then God shouldn't be able to harden anyones heart.... let alone Pharoh. Isn't that right freewillers???

DB BB


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## Ramblin' Wreck (Mar 20, 2007)

I would say thats where an all powerful God comes in, I think he could choose to make us do whatever he wants but just like any parent the point is not to force good behavior onto a child but teach the child good behavior. God is watching us live and guides us with his teachings


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## Ramblin' Wreck (Mar 20, 2007)

This is an area of my faith that has been troubling me a lot lately and so civil arguments would help a lot.


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> If all of man(humans) had freewill, then God shouldn't be able to harden anyones heart.... let alone Pharoh. Isn't that right freewillers???
> 
> DB BB



If there is no free will, why would God have to? God in His sovereignty would have insured that Pharaoh's heart was sufficiently hardened to meet His purposes.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> I agree, that their beliefs has a direct correlation to what they think God's personality is like. He used the word weak kneed. I think it would take a control freak, unsecure,weak and unjust person to act in the manner they are describing of God. It is definitly not close to the God I serve and believe in. What if a parent had 10 children. He chose four of them to recieve his inhertance and to run the family business. The other 6 he told would have no inhertance and could take no part in family affairs, regardless of their abilities or efforts. 2 of the 4 did not want to work in the family business, but he forced them to regardless. He did not care and wouldn't give them a choice; he wanted it his way. I would think that is the worst father in the world.


 
i am by far the most secure, strong in mind and body, as fair as i can be, and by far and away the farthest thing from a control freak. 9chapter of romans again will explain. Read it and then ask God why he does such


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

PWALLS, i posted before i read your last post. Please read 9th chapter of romans, please. You can not compare a christmas gift to salvation. God does have the right to take joe, drake, tom, and leave russ,mike, ............ Who are you to question the will of God, let alone the scope and power of God? You are thinking like a man, in man's ways, and they are not God's ways.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

Ramblin' Wreck said:


> I would say thats where an all powerful God comes in, I think he could choose to make us do whatever he wants but just like any parent the point is not to force good behavior onto a child but teach the child good behavior. God is watching us live and guides us with his teachings



that is exactly what the scriptures say in Isaiah 48:17

17ImadummyThis is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit [yourself], the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> PWALLS, i posted before i read your last post. Please read 9th chapter of romans, please. You can not compare a christmas gift to salvation. God does have the right to take joe, drake, tom, and leave russ,mike, ............ Who are you to question the will of God, let alone the scope and power of God? You are thinking like a man, in man's ways, and they are not God's ways.



No disrespect. It seems to me that your belief assigns and assumes a lot of motives that I think are terrible. I would not want to serve such a God.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

John 6:44

No man can come to me except the father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

The greek word for draw in this context is "helko". The definition of helko is,  get ready , TO DRAG

God drags. I guess you are stronger than he huh?

Hard for men to give up something to anybody. If God sets the universe in motion by his command, and it follows, then you want me to believe that a man can  resist Gods call. Funny how everything else in this world and universe is run by God, but not us men, oh no, we know better. That's insane to me.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> i am by far the most secure, strong in mind and body, as fair as i can be, and by far and away the farthest thing from a control freak. 9chapter of romans again will explain. Read it and then ask God why he does such




Not saying you are , BUT that what you say implies that of GOD.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> No disrespect. It seems to me that your belief assigns and assumes a lot of motives that I think are terrible. I would not want to serve such a God.


 
Then explain it to me. Explain that in a free will way. It does not matter what you or I think. What does it say?


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> John 6:44
> 
> No man can come to me except the father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day
> 
> ...




That seems out there. A father urges his children to the right way. Does things that hopes gets them interested, but the choice is always theirs. SAME as draw, BUT it is very different than force.That is the part I find on shakey ground. I think that you get this because of Eph 1, and trying to make it fit.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> Not saying you are , BUT that what you say implies that of GOD.


 
How can God be weak when he reserves the right to save whom he wants too? If anything, it makes him strong. Little too much Hillary in there for me, bud.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> Then explain it to me. Explain that in a free will way. It does not matter what you or I think. What does it say?



No, that is what you are saying, that Our thoughts and actions have no effect on our outcome. I say it is all tied to our thoughts, actions, motives. That determines our outcome.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> That seems out there. A father urges his children to the right way. Does things that hopes gets them interested, but the choice is always theirs. SAME as draw, BUT it is very different than force.That is the part I find on shakey ground. I think that you get this because of Eph 1, and trying to make it fit.


 
No, i just take it for what it says. God draws, jesus saves. Where is the choice given there? It is not. Nor will it be. God has a people and Christ saves them. No choice given. You stretch it when you add your choice in there.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

fits ephesians perfectly


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> How can God be weak when he reserves the right to save whom he wants too? If anything, it makes him strong. Little too much Hillary in there for me, bud.




Come on now. Look in history. Weak rulers always control their close associates, because they are insecure.Sadam did the same and killed any  that questioned him. Forcing someone, making all the choices, is not what I would call a strong attribute.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> No, that is what you are saying, that Our thoughts and actions have no effect on our outcome. I say it is all tied to our thoughts, actions, motives. That determines our outcome.


 
PleASE EXPLAIN THE 9TH CHAPTER OF ROMANS IN A FREE WILL CONTEXT. nOT THE GOSPEL OF ADPRUITT. nOT THE GOSPEL OF dARTONHUNTER. tHE 9TH CHAPTER OF ROMANS, VERSE FOR VERSE, ON THIS FORUM, WITH A DEFINITION OF WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS. yOU WILL FIND OUT YOU CAN'T DO IT. bUT I'LL DO IT IF YOU WILL AND WE CAN SHARE RESULTS.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

HILLARY WAS A JOKE. WHY DO YOU KEEP GIVING EXAMPLES OF MEN? gIVE ME ONE EXAMPLE IN THE BIBLE OF GOD BEING WEAK. jUST ONE. ANYTHING ELSE IS JUST OPINION


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> No, i just take it for what it says. God draws, jesus saves. Where is the choice given there? It is not. Nor will it be. God has a people and Christ saves them. No choice given. You stretch it when you add your choice in there.



You have a lot of ideas, good,maybe bad,  but for the uneducated please post entire sciptures to support. I see very little support given other than personal viewpoint, Which you have that right, because you have free choice>


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> HILLARY WAS A JOKE. WHY DO YOU KEEP GIVING EXAMPLES OF MEN? gIVE ME ONE EXAMPLE IN THE BIBLE OF GOD BEING WEAK. jUST ONE. ANYTHING ELSE IS JUST OPINION




I do not think God is weak, YOU are implying it with your belief.


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> The greek word for draw in this context is "helko". The definition of helko is,  get ready , TO DRAG



Actually the word helkuo used in this case means to draw by inward power...better possibly, by the wooing of the Holy Spirit.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

i GOTTA ASK, NOT TO MAKE FUN OR NOTHING ,BUT WHAT DENOMINATION ARE YOU? FOR MY INFO ONLY


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

*A Choice*

thousands of examples where God says we have choices:
that is the whole meaning of Isaiah 48 17-19. How could you see this to mean anything other than a choice?

This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: “I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit [yourself], the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk. O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea. And your offspring would become just like the sand, and the descendants from your inward parts like the grains of it. One’s name would not be cut off or be annihilated from before me.”


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

SBG said:


> Actually the word helkuo used in this case means to draw by inward power...better possibly, by the wooing of the Holy Spirit.


 
GOD'S POWER

Dartonhunter, i have put tons of scriptures on this thread. Did you not read them?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> thousands of examples where God says we have choices:
> that is the whole meaning of Isaiah 48 17-19. How could you see this to mean anything other than a choice?
> 
> This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: “I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit [yourself], the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk. O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea. And your offspring would become just like the sand, and the descendants from your inward parts like the grains of it. One’s name would not be cut off or be annihilated from before me.”


 I've never said you did not have choices. Just not on going to heaven. God fixed that one for you cause he knew you'd make the wrong choice. So would I.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> GOD'S POWER
> 
> Dartonhunter, i have put tons of scriptures on this thread. Did you not read them?



You said GOD Draws people, that in NO WAY supports your theroy that we do not have choices.


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 20, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> That seems out there. A father urges his children to the right way. Does things that hopes gets them interested, but the choice is always theirs. SAME as draw, BUT it is very different than force.That is the part I find on shakey ground. I think that you get this because of Eph 1, and trying to make it fit.



Joh 6:44 - 
Except the Father draw him (_ean mē helkusēi auton_). Negative condition of third class with _ean me_̄ and first aorist active subjunctive of _helkuō_, older form _helko_̄, to drag like a net (Joh_21:6), or sword (Joh_18:10), or men (Act_16:19), to draw by moral power (Joh_12:32), as in Jer_31:3. _Suro_̄, the other word to drag (Act_8:3; Act_14:19) is not used of Christ’s drawing power. The same point is repeated in Joh_6:65. The approach of the soul to God is initiated by God, the other side of Joh_6:37. See Rom_8:7 for the same doctrine and use of _oude dunatai like oudeis dunatai_ here.

Remember the Bible was not written in English . We do need to go back to the original languages to see what the author intended when verses or ideas are in dispute.

The Greek word we translate as draw- is drag or to draw like a sword is drawn.  In other words physical effort being done to an object that can not help the one drawing it.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> I've never said you did not have choices. Just not on going to heaven. God fixed that one for you cause he knew you'd make the wrong choice. So would I.



 Confused. So you are saying that if someone choices eternal salvation than that Could be a wrong choice??


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

He talks of peace, not of going to heaven. Big difference


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

addictedtodeer said:


> Joh 6:44 -
> Except the Father draw him (_ean meÌ„ helkuseÌ„i auton_). Negative condition of third class with _ean me_Ì„ and first aorist active subjunctive of _helkuoÌ„_, older form _helko_Ì„, to drag like a net (Joh_21:6), or sword (Joh_18:10), or men (Act_16:19), to draw by moral power (Joh_12:32), as in Jer_31:3. _Suro_Ì„, the other word to drag (Act_8:3; Act_14:19) is not used of Christ’s drawing power. The same point is repeated in Joh_6:65. The approach of the soul to God is initiated by God, the other side of Joh_6:37. See Rom_8:7 for the same doctrine and use of _oude dunatai like oudeis dunatai_ here.
> 
> Draw does not mean force. It is not the same.
> ...



Draw does not mean force. It is not the same.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> He talks of peace, not of going to heaven. Big difference




I didn't say heaven, I said eternal salvation. Is peace  eternal salvation? Or can you only chose peace on earth than die no matter what you do?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

You get everyday choices. You get out of bed and make them all day long. I'm not saying God makes every choice for you.

God draws you to him. That's Bible. Jesus saves you. That's Bible. Why did God call you? He decided that before the world began. That's Bible. Are we gonna tackle Romans or are you gonna avoid it?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

Peace does not equal eternal salvation. Even animals can have peace.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

Yes, it does mean by force in the context given. Did Jesus force Lazarus to come or did he have a choice?


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

addictedtodeer said:


> Remember the Bible was not written in English . We do need to go back to the original languages to see what the author intended when verses or ideas are in dispute.



Sorry, but this wrong. It is contrary to God's principle of using the weak, uneducated, opressed, to further the gospel. This is the same legalistic view that the church of rome took when it restricted God's Word to just the clergy and used it in Latin. 

God has preserved the Word for the smallest child to comprehend. We must remember that the bible is a spiritual book that is spiritually discerned.


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## Ramblin' Wreck (Mar 20, 2007)

Just throwing it out there, but if I am predestined to go to heaven but here on earth I choose everyday to go against everything in the Bible, knowing good and well what Im doing, I should still go to heaven with the ones that believe and try to follow God?


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> You get everyday choices. You get out of bed and make them all day long. I'm not saying God makes every choice for you.
> 
> God draws you to him. That's Bible. Jesus saves you. That's Bible. Why did God call you? He decided that before the world began. That's Bible. Are we gonna tackle Romans or are you gonna avoid it?




YOU quote it and lets talk. Don't keep it in the dark.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

Ramblin' Wreck said:


> Just throwing it out there, but if I am predestined to go to heaven but here on earth I choose everyday to go against everything in the Bible, knowing good and well what Im doing, I should still go to heaven with the ones that believe and try to follow God?




That is exactly what they are saying, but in a circle.


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## Twenty five ought six (Mar 20, 2007)

> Just throwing it out there, but if I am predestined to go to heaven but here on earth I choose everyday to go against everything in the Bible, knowing good and well what Im doing, I should still go to heaven with the ones that believe and try to follow God?



That's the logical conundrum that predestinarians haven't been able to answer in the last 500 years.  Still haven't.

No way to escape that conclusion.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

DartonHunter101 said:


> YOU quote it and lets talk. Don't keep it in the dark.



I have to go. But lets take it one scripture at a time. Discuss what the subject is of the conversation, who is saying, and who was the intend audience. I looked up some of the above scriptures and  and none even came close ( to me) to saying God is going to force indivduals to serve him. Do you realize in our world we call that a dictator. Not the type ruler or goverment I would be interested in, and I do not believe, I , you , or God would like someone to cliam he had that kind of personality.
Just my .02


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 20, 2007)

SBG said:


> If there is no free will, why would God have to? God in His sovereignty would have insured that Pharaoh's heart was sufficiently hardened to meet His purposes.



So how did Pharoh's heart get hardened then? Did Pharoh have a choice? I don't think he did...

Ex 4:21 - And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Ex 7:3 - And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Ex 14:4 - And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.

Ex 14:17 - And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 20, 2007)

*Romans Chapter 9*

Romans Chapter 9 KJV

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> So how did Pharoh's heart get hardened then? Did Pharoh have a choice? I don't think he did...
> 
> Ex 4:21 - And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
> 
> ...



No, Pharaoh had no choice. 

But remember, God hardened pharaohs heart so that He(God) would receive more glory. Pharaoh had a choice as to whether he would let the children of Israel go...he was given a choice 10 times.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 20, 2007)

SBG said:


> No, Pharaoh had no choice.
> 
> But remember, God hardened pharaohs heart so that He(God) would receive more glory. Pharaoh had a choice as to whether he would let the children of Israel go...he was given a choice 10 times.



Ex 4:21 - And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: *but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go*.

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 20, 2007)

SBG said:


> No, Pharaoh had no choice.
> 
> But remember, God hardened pharaohs heart so that He(God) would receive more glory. Pharaoh had a choice as to whether he would let the children of Israel go...he was given a choice 10 times.



So if God can make it so that Pharaoh has no choice, then why can't He do it with us?

Who ultimately is going to receive the glory if we are saved or not?

DB BB


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

Ramblin' Wreck said:


> Just throwing it out there, but if I am predestined to go to heaven but here on earth I choose everyday to go against everything in the Bible, knowing good and well what Im doing, I should still go to heaven with the ones that believe and try to follow God?


No conundrum, if God has chosen you, you will. 500 years, not really. We've always believed that. Else how can God have someone out of every tribe, nation, and tongue? Surely you missionairies have missed a spot or two.

Darton, tonight i will go over verse by verse.


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## Ramblin' Wreck (Mar 20, 2007)

Nobody has said that God cannot take our choice away, I believe he can, but chooses not to.


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## Ramblin' Wreck (Mar 20, 2007)

So God makes He!! bound people in his image and wants a relationship with them?


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## PWalls (Mar 20, 2007)

I guess biggest issue I have with "election" as Calvinists take it is the initial idea. I wholeheartedly agree with them about never losing your salvation.    But it's how we get there that is disputed.

I believe that I have to know how bad I truly am and how good the offer is before I can truly become a child of God. I have to understand that I am going to He!! unless I listen to the call of the Holy Spirit and repent and live for God and accept my Salvation through Jesus Christ. God does the calling and I answer.

Calvinists believe that it doesn't matter what you believe or feel or understand. If you are one of the "elect", God will redeem you. No call for you to answer. Nothing you have to do.

I believe you could be Hitler and on your deathbed, repent and confess and be saved. But, only after you realize what you have done and how bad you are and where you are going and what you need to do. They believe you could be Hitler on your deathbed and not care one whit, but God will still redeem you and take you if you were one of the elect. 

Doesn't look like there is any accountibility there.


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> So if God can make it so that Pharaoh has no choice, then why can't He do it with us?
> 
> Who ultimately is going to receive the glory if we are saved or not?
> 
> DB BB



He can do it with us, but He chose not to. God receives the ultimate glory when His creation returns unto Him willingly. Do you not think God could have created the angels where they could not rebel? They did rebel and it was according to God's ultimate will. God foreknew that Lucifer would fall and bring sin into the world. This was all a part of His redemption plan where the world would be saved through Him and His finished work on the cross. 

How does God receive glory by choosing some to come to salvation and others to not? He doesn't. He receives glory when we come to Him in response to His gift of love.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

PWALLS< THAT IS ASSUMING GOD WOULD CHOOSE SOMEONE LIKE HITLER. Every time you bring up one of your what if situations, you make me smile.

What verse is the one with God does the calling and i do the answering? I missed that one. 

I'm going fishing. i will talk some more tonight. Lathem is just too pretty to sit here.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

By the way SBG, disagree with you on the glory thing. Romans says the bad lump is to make the good lump more aware of God and to glory him fuller. It's there.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

bye


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 20, 2007)

SBG said:


> Sorry, but this wrong. It is contrary to God's principle of using the weak, uneducated, opressed, to further the gospel. This is the same legalistic view that the church of rome took when it restricted God's Word to just the clergy and used it in Latin.
> 
> God has preserved the Word for the smallest child to comprehend. We must remember that the bible is a spiritual book that is spiritually discerned.



First putting the scriptures into a third language (latin) is not the same as going back to the original. 

Anyone today (including children) can use lexicons to find a meaning of the original language. I teach elementary students to do just that in my Bible classes (its just like using a dictionary). We need to know what English words mean why not the meaning of the Greek words?

As to legalism which the reformers fought against, the reformers would have not taken such care to go back to the original if is was legalism.

William Tyndale to get our English Bible first learned the originals in order to translate into English. Then went back revising his translations to correct areas he felt needed to be. Luther, Wycliffe, Knox all did the same.

The puritans and pilgrams encouraged the study of the original languages to understand scripture better. Through out history protestants have been encouraged to learn the original language in order to understand scripture better.

The argument just doesn't hold up to protestant history, belief nor the study tools we have today.


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> By the way SBG, disagree with you on the glory thing. Romans says the bad lump is to make the good lump more aware of God and to glory him fuller. It's there.



You need to understand that Romans 9 is not given in regards to personal salvation. Notice the first of the chapter and that it is adressed to Israel. The entire chapter is dealing with nations and their relationship to God.

Cherry-picking  is one of the most critical errors in biblical exegesis. When verses are singled out and taken out of their context in an attempt to rationalize one's position, it often makes it impossible to explain other clear passages.

This is the case with the incorrect assignment of chapter 9 to that of individual salvation instead of its rightful assignment to that of nations. When this is done it makes verses like chapter 1 vs. 16 seem contradictory. We need to keep in mind that the epistle to the Romans is a letter. Paul would not contradict himself in the same letter.


Romans 1

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Good luck fishing!


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

SBG said:


> You need to understand that Romans 9 is not given in regards to personal salvation. Notice the first of the chapter and that it is adressed to Israel. The entire chapter is dealing with nations and their relationship to God.
> 
> Cherry-picking is one of the most critical errors in biblical exegesis. When verses are singled out and taken out of their context in an attempt to rationalize one's position, it often makes it impossible to explain other clear passages.
> 
> ...


you gotta be kidding me? not even close. 

Besides, how many times i gotta say it, not every can believe. But let's say for the sake of argument that you are right SBG, then apply the same logic to chapter 8 of romans and the first chapter of ephesians.


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## DartonHunter101 (Mar 20, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Ex 4:21 - And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: *but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go*.
> 
> DB BB



That translation is in question. Others translate it " let him harden his heart." 
So How do we know,? None of us know Hebrew> I look at the surronding scriptues to get the sense of the subject at hand.
Exodus 8: 15
When Pharaoh got to see that relief had taken place, he made his heart unresponsive; and he did not listen to them, just as Jehovah had spoken.

Exodus 8 : 32
However, Pharaoh made his heart unresponsive this time also and did not send the people away.

So from my understanding, after reading everything,  God let Pharaoh harden.  God copuld have changed his heart, but let him be un reponsive, and in the end gave God more glory.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

By the way, look at Isaiah 45 and explain to me the difference between Jacob and Israel before you use israel in another context. They are not the same. See verse 4 and how they are SAVED in verse 17. Is that the Jews you know?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

now, gotta go fishing for real. See ya'll around nine oclock.


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## SBG (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> you gotta be kidding me? not even close.
> 
> Besides, how many times i gotta say it, not every can believe. But let's say for the sake of argument that you are right SBG, then apply the same logic to chapter 8 of romans and the first chapter of ephesians.



Okay, let's suppose I'm right about chapter 9. That would mean that your position is in error. Now you want me to reveal the holes in another example. What if I do show you the error of reformed theology when they use Romans chapter 8 and then Eph. chapter 2 to prove their point? What will be the next straw man? I don't mean this to be offensive. Just pointing out that you can keep throwing out examples and they can in turn be put in their proper context forever. A few obscure passages cannot be allowed to trump the abundantly clear message of the scriptures.

Again I have to remind you that the epistle to the Romans is like us setting down and writing a letter. Paul would not say, "I like apples" in chapter one and then turn around and say that he despises them in chapter 9. Unfortunately, you are a victim of the faulty exegesis of some of our christian forefathers.

Paul writes in chapter 2:

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 

These people obviously have been given a choice.

Paul writes in Chapter 5:

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life

Again same letter to the Romans, Paul makes it abundantly clear how he was taught of Christ in the wilderness. "The free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life." PTL!



Romans 10:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 


12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 

Again this is in the same letter that Paul wrote to the Romans.

What part of "all" or "whosoever shall" don't you guys understand?  

Leave the cherry-picking to the illegals.


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## Vernon Holt (Mar 20, 2007)

*Election vs Freewill*



addictedtodeer said:


> "*God doesn't describe us as Children until we are saved by Him".*
> 
> I fully agree.  In connection with this thought may I ask _why is it that Calvinists refer to the "chosen" as sheep even though they may not even know who Jesus Christ is??_
> I believe that the sheep are those who know him, know his voice, and follow him.
> ...


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## PWalls (Mar 20, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> PWALLS< THAT IS ASSUMING GOD WOULD CHOOSE SOMEONE LIKE HITLER. Every time you bring up one of your what if situations, you make me smile.



Hey, if you can still smile, then that means we are having a good time.

And, I believe that you said in this thread or the other one that God is sovereign and can choose whomever He wishes so he could choose Hitler, Stalin, Arafat, Hussein, anyone. I could put anyone in that reference.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

Vernon Holt said:


> addictedtodeer said:
> 
> 
> > "*God doesn't describe us as Children until we are saved by Him".*
> ...


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

what does ptl mean, sbg


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 20, 2007)

hey, got home late. will pick up with yall in the morning


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## SBG (Mar 21, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> what does ptl mean, sbg



Praise the Lord!



adpruitt2 said:


> However, the freewill explosion in the church has only been around for a couple of hundred years. It wasn't really as popular as you'd like to think.



More like 2000 years.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 21, 2007)

SBG said:


> Praise the Lord!
> my bad. Brain wasn't thinking
> 
> 
> More like 2000 years.


I love someone with a sense of humor


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## Ramblin' Wreck (Mar 21, 2007)

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

But whosoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:14)

And it shall come to pass that whosoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. (Acts 2:21)

To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whosoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)

Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. (Romans 5:18)

For whosoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. (Romans 10:13)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3, 4)

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men . . . . (Titus 2:11)

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. (1 John 5:1)

And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whosoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)

Here are some supporting free will.
This argument will never end because the bible supports both election and free will


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## Twenty five ought six (Mar 21, 2007)

> Yes, i am having a good time, pwalls. SBG, you aren't being offensive. However, the freewill explosion in the church has only been around for a couple of hundred years. It wasn't really as popular as you'd like to think.



You are trying to make a joke, aren't you?

Free will was a key element in the distinction of the Aristotelian and Platonic schools of philosophy, and was a central element of argument, discussion, debate, and resolution by St. Augustine in his various writings, 370 A.D. more or less.


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## Ramblin' Wreck (Mar 21, 2007)

http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/gospel_way/predestination.php

Found this link provided a lot of information, and no I was not looking for support for free will that just happened to be one of the first finds.

And I havent read it yet but they also have an article on "once saved always saved"
http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/gospel_way/eternal_security.php


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 21, 2007)

Twenty five ought six said:


> You are trying to make a joke, aren't you?
> 
> Free will was a key element in the distinction of the Aristotelian and Platonic schools of philosophy, and was a central element of argument, discussion, debate, and resolution by St. Augustine in his various writings, 370 A.D. more or less.


Plato and Aristotle? Are you kidding me? What church did they go to? 

Anyway, you might want to read a little more Augustine before you use him because he believed in election, not freewill. The subject might have come up in arguments, but it was not the stance of the church at that time. Read Augustine's Retractions before you use him again because he wouldn't like your beliefs.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 21, 2007)

Your links are Church of Christ links, pretty modern movement. Not insulting Church of Christ members. For every one you use, i can use the same amount. We can post links all day. That church also does not believe in onced saved, always saved. I would try something else.


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## Twenty five ought six (Mar 21, 2007)

> Anyway, you might want to read a little more Augustine before you use him because he believed in election, not freewill. The subject might have come up in arguments, but it was not the stance of the church at that time. Read Augustine's Retractions before you use him again because he wouldn't like your beliefs.




I suspect that I have read considerably more St. Augustine than you have.  I didn't say he believed in free will, but he did discuss it considerably more than 200 hundred years ago, as your initial quote stated.  However St. Augustine did believe and espouse that man had the ability (free will) to accept or reject the salvation offered to him.

Even St. Augustine could not resolve the issue that of determinism; why is there a need to live a moral life and accept God if salvation is predetermined. 



> Plato and Aristotle? Are you kidding me? What church did they go to?



For some reason, I'm not surprised at a statement like that.


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## Ramblin' Wreck (Mar 21, 2007)

Well in my opinion it does not matter what church the information is from, I go more on what was written in the Bible, Which the link uses for its support, The only reason I posted the link is that it showed specific beliefs of election and then showed contradictions, I know you can show me links that are just the opposite, but there are always gonna be biased opinions on both sides

anyways I cant get my whole head around this whole once saved always saved idea. If I believed that then life would be easier because I would not have to fight the wants of man, I could do whatever I wanted and not worry bout it, premarital sex, pornography, etc. I just find it hard to believe that living that lifestyle with no relationship with God would still send me to heaven.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 21, 2007)

Twenty five ought six said:


> why is there a need to live a moral life and accept God if salvation is predetermined.



Because the conscience of the doomed sinner has been 'quickened' or 'made alive' by the Holy Spirit, in the gift of salvation.  Plain ol' "religious" folks know nothing of this, and I grow weary of hearing them say things like...  it makes NO DIFFERRENCE about conduct, you can do whatever you please!  

Finally, and this is MY own take on this, debateable as it is... when it comes to 'freewill' mixed with the act of God's saving grace, the mere THOUGHT that some of my own 'stuff' went into this "call to be crucified with Christ" gives me concern that ... that part can be lost AGAIN. (Goes to that 'other' thread, I'll try not embelish that)

The fact that God did the calling AND sealing gives me great joy...  and also prevents the dread of "what if I didn't get it right?".  

And (further answer to "why is there a need to live a moral life") it does something else...  helps me WANT to live a life pleasing to the Lord, because He did the first work and I can trust Him for the rest.  

I think we put way too much burden on our own shoulders with this.  Some, not all in the 'freewill' side have some misgivings on thier on faith b/c of that.  My answer isn't meant to be confrontational, but to offer some encouragement to some out there who have sincerely believed in Christ for forgiveness, and helping them know they are sealed by God.  This is God's work, not ours, no part at all...

~thanks be to God!


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 21, 2007)

People keep saying i could do whatever i want, then they give a list of sins. We always rank sins in order of importance to US. Sin is sin with God. 

If one is saved, i don't care how it happens, but if one is saved they try and not live like above. Does backsliding happen. Yes. Man has a spiritual battle daily with the flesh. Man may lose. Man may not overcome it but the death of Christ makes intercession for him. 

And yes, it does matter the denomination from which the information comes from. Because they are all biased to their opinion. Mine included. I would like to think that even those who argue against me use earlier belief systems. Modern man is too humanistic in his views. SBG brings forth centuries of arguements, not recent ones. I pointed out that only because denominationally, they are relatively new to the scene. Over the history of the church that is.

Of course, he does have a Miami Dolphin in his avatar so maybe he might be a little crazy


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

Freewillers:
Who in their right mind would turn away from the Gift of Salvation when it is offered? 

Choice 1: I can live life the way I want to live and go and burn in He!!. 

Choice 2: I can accept this gift of Salvation and be sure of a wonderful life with God after death.

To me it seems as though if anyone was offered the gift, no one would ever refuse it.

Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me....

just an observation....

DB BB


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## SBG (Mar 21, 2007)

Ramblin' Wreck said:


> anyways I cant get my whole head around this whole once saved always saved idea. If I believed that then life would be easier because I would not have to fight the wants of man, I could do whatever I wanted and not worry bout it, premarital sex, pornography, etc. I just find it hard to believe that living that lifestyle with no relationship with God would still send me to heaven.



No offense intended, but this is the fallacy of the "fall from grace" camp. It seems that they assume that if you believe "OSAS" that you will automatically use that for a license to sin. This is in direct contadiction to what the scriptures teach about holy living after salvation, and cheapens the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.


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## PWalls (Mar 21, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Freewillers:
> Who in their right mind would turn away from the Gift of Salvation when it is offered?
> 
> Choice 1: I can live life the way I want to live and go and burn in He!!.
> ...



Electers:
Why should I care or what does it matter what I do or how bad I am? God's gonna save me anyway before I die. Let's party it up in the meantime.


And, yes, anyone that has been quickened by the Holy Spirit will accept that gift with open arms since they now realize what they have done and where they are going. Anyone not quickened by the Holy Spirit will refuse it or just plain lie to themselves because they don't understand the gift.


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## PWalls (Mar 21, 2007)

SBG said:


> No offense intended, but this is the fallacy of the "fall from grace" camp. It seems that they assume that if you believe "OSAS" that you will automatically use that for a license to sin. This is in direct contadiction to what the scriptures teach about holy living after salvation, and cheapens the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.



AMEN


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 21, 2007)

Twenty five ought six said:


> Free will was a key element in the distinction of the Aristotelian and Platonic schools of philosophy, and was a central element of argument, discussion, debate, and resolution by St. Augustine in his various writings, 370 A.D. more or less.



Better look up the Council of orange- Augustine was not for free will.


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 21, 2007)

PWalls said:


> And, yes, anyone that has been quickened by the Holy Spirit will accept that gift with open arms since they now realize what they have done and where they are going. Anyone not quickened by the Holy Spirit will refuse it or just plain lie to themselves because they don't understand the gift.



Congrats, you just explained Irresistible grace.


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 21, 2007)

PWalls said:


> Electers:
> Why should I care or what does it matter what I do or how bad I am? God's gonna save me anyway before I die. Let's party it up in the meantime.



Care is directly linked to salvation. One who is saved will, through the Holy Spirit indwelling in them, obey God.

Paul, John, Peter always linked Salvation with obedient living after it. One could not be saved then do whatever they wanted due to the Holy spirit within them.

Also from an election point of view no-one does care what they do.  We are dead in our trespasses, we are, by our own actions, children of wrath. The idea of Election only works with the idea of Total Depravity. "TULIP"  works together.

Election is a must because of the belief in Total Depravity, if you beleive man is only sick in sin, not dead, then no need for election. If you believe man has some good in them, then no need for election. If you say man still can choose righteous, no need for election.

BUT if you say men are dead in their sins, full of unrighteousness, and incapable of choosing righteousness the only hope is intervention from God, which is called election.


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## PWalls (Mar 21, 2007)

addictedtodeer said:


> Congrats, you just explained Irresistible grace.



No, I explained a "choice" probably poorly.


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## PWalls (Mar 21, 2007)

addictedtodeer said:


> BUT if you say men are dead in their sins, full of unrighteousness, and incapable of choosing righteousness the only hope is intervention from God, which is called election.



But, I do believe in predestination and election. I believe that God predestinated and elected "all" men or "whosever" to be His children. I believe that if the Holy Spirit didn't work within you, you would never understand the choice that you have and never make the right choice. So, I do believe in a direct intervention by God.


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## Ramblin' Wreck (Mar 21, 2007)

I agree with PWalls, God did elect, he elected a group.
Ephesians 1:3-14 - Paul is addressing the elect in Christ. But the rest of the book refers to them as the church, the body of Christ - this is the theme of the book.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

PWalls said:


> But, I do believe in predestination and election. I believe that God predestinated and elected "all" men or "whosever" to be His children. I believe that if the Holy Spirit didn't work within you, you would never understand the choice that you have and never make the right choice. So, I do believe in a direct intervention by God.





But there is no choice with the quicking of the Holy Spirit, you said it so yourself... Those that are quickened will be saved....

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

If you are not quickened then you are not seeing yourself as the sinful creature that you are...

DB BB


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## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2007)

Ramblin' Wreck said:


> anyways I cant get my whole head around this whole once saved always saved idea. If I believed that then life would be easier because I would not have to fight the wants of man, I could do whatever I wanted and not worry bout it, premarital sex, pornography, etc. I just find it hard to believe that living that lifestyle with no relationship with God would still send me to heaven.





And thats the "fallacy" of the OSAS theory. It kind of takes away from living clean and holy, lets you have a crutch or allows you loop holes for certain things in your life. Seen to many of the "I got saved last night" crowd that never see the church doors again. But they will tell you quick, they are saved.


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 21, 2007)

PWalls said:


> But, I do believe in predestination and election. I believe that God predestinated and elected "all" men or "whosever" to be His children. I believe that if the Holy Spirit didn't work within you, you would never understand the choice that you have and never make the right choice. So, I do believe in a direct intervention by God.



So you hold to universalism (all men coming to faith)?

"whosoever" is a qualifying word it means not all.  if whosoever is to be believed then a group believes and a group does not. Add total depravity and you get Election.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

It should be:  IF SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED!!!

DB BB


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 21, 2007)

Ramblin' Wreck said:


> I agree with PWalls, God did elect, he elected a group.
> Ephesians 1:3-14 - Paul is addressing the elect in Christ. But the rest of the book refers to them as the church, the body of Christ - this is the theme of the book.



That is all  the doctrine of election is. God elected a group to be His people. In the OT it is Israel, in the NT He adds the church, which he calls spiritual Israel.  Both groups are one, both groups chosen before time began.


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## addictedtodeer (Mar 21, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> It should be:  IF SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED!!!
> 
> DB BB



GOOD POINT!


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## SBG (Mar 21, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> If you are not quickened then you are not seeing yourself as the sinful creature that you are...
> 
> DB BB



DB,

I'm afraid that you are putting the cart in front of the horse, so to speak.

Quickening of the Holy Spirit is a fruit or result of salvation-it is not synonymous for salvation. 

True salvation requires belief first...it is almost an asyncronous transaction-but, belief is required then the quickening occurs.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

SBG said:


> DB,
> 
> I'm afraid that you are putting the cart in front of the horse, so to speak.
> 
> ...



You can't be saved unless you have been drawn by the Holy Spirit.  That is what I meant by Quickening of the Soul....

Man(humans) cannot ever come to God without first being Drawn by the Holy Spirit...

No Cart before the horse...


DB BB


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## SBG (Mar 21, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> You can't be saved unless you have been drawn by the Holy Spirit.  That is what I meant by Quickening of the Soul....
> 
> Man(humans) cannot ever come to God without first being Drawn by the Holy Spirit...
> 
> ...



I agree with that completely; however, drawn by and quickened (made alive) thereby being indwelled by the Holy Ghost are two different occurrences.


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## Vernon Holt (Mar 21, 2007)

Quote by Adpruett2)  "_Okay, threejays, this is the way it's been taught to me so as to be easily explainable_". (quote from "once saved always saved", post #19)

I was intrigued when reading the above quotation.  I was reminded of a statement made by a Godly minister who had been 50 years in the ministry.

He made the point that there is no way that a person could read the Holy Bible for himself and arrive at the conclusions that are held dear by the "Absolute Predestinatarians".

He stated that in order to fall for this doctrine, one must be taught.  I was reminded of this when Bro. Pruett made the statement, "this is the way it has been taught to me".

God's plan of salvation is so simple that a child can understand.  God predestined it to be this way.  Many a person has been gloriously saved simply by reading a Gideon New Testament and learning for the first time that God loves them and wants them to be counted  among the redeemed. 

Any doctrine is suspect if it requires special teaching in order to explaing its implications.  I believe this is what Paul had in mind when he wrote the following:

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.  Ephesians 4:14


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

SBG said:


> I agree with that completely; however, drawn by and quickened (made alive) thereby being indwelled by the Holy Ghost are two different occurrences.



If you are drawn by the Holy Spirit then you have already been made aware of your Sinfulness thus is there any choice to make about salvation?

Are you saying that once the gift of Salvation has been given that a person that now sees the Glorious Gift is going to refuse it?

DB BB


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## SBG (Mar 21, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> If you are drawn by the Holy Spirit then you have already been made aware of your Sinfulness thus is there any choice to make about salvation?
> 
> Are you saying that once the gift of Salvation has been given that a person that now sees the Glorious Gift is going to refuse it?
> 
> DB BB



Yes! That is exactly what I am saying. There are multitudes of examples of this in the Bible.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

SBG said:


> Yes! That is exactly what I am saying. There are multitudes of examples of this in the Bible.



Could you please post some, because I don't recall any that have been presented with the Gift of Salvation and then turned their backs on it....

DB BB


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## SBG (Mar 21, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Could you please post some, because I don't recall any that have been presented with the Gift of Salvation and then turned their backs on it....
> 
> DB BB



You are right. What I was thinking, and what I should have said is that there are instances of where man rejected God's will.

Here is an example though of someone that rejected the gospel...

The first that comes to mind immediately is King Agrippa. Paul presented the gospel to him and he was obviously convicted of his transgression.But, alas, he told Paul that he was almost persuaded. He came close, but his rebellious, sinful, pride controlled nature took over.


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## SBG (Mar 21, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> And thats the "fallacy" of the OSAS theory. It kind of takes away from living clean and holy, lets you have a crutch or allows you loop holes for certain things in your life. Seen to many of the "I got saved last night" crowd that never see the church doors again. But they will tell you quick, they are saved.



I'm afraid you don't understand the working of the Holy Spirit.


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## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2007)

Ramblin' Wreck said:


> http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/gospel_way/predestination.php
> 
> Found this link provided a lot of information, and no I was not looking for support for free will that just happened to be one of the first finds.
> 
> ...



I started reading some of it. Have not read it all yet,  but very interesting. Everyone knows I dont believe OSAS, no secret, but Im not knocking any one that does, I just dont. I would like to ask those that do a few questions, how do you get around Hebrews 10:26? Why would Paul be concerned about becoming a castaway himself? Would there be a need to put a scripture about restoring a fallen brother? What would be the point of 2nd Peter chapter 2?


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## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2007)

SBG said:


> I'm afraid you don't understand the working of the Holy Spirit.



Im afraid your fooling yourself with that thought.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

SBG said:


> You are right. What I was thinking, and what I should have said is that there are instances of where man rejected God's will.
> 
> Here is an example though of someone that rejected the gospel...
> 
> The first that comes to mind immediately is King Agrippa. Paul presented the gospel to him and he was obviously convicted of his transgression.But, alas, he told Paul that he was almost persuaded. He came close, but his rebellious, sinful, pride controlled nature took over.



Acts 26:24-32
24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad. 25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness. 26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner. 27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest. 28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. 29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds. 30 And when he had thus spoken, the king rose up, and the governor, and Bernice, and they that sat with them: 31 And when they were gone aside, they talked between themselves, saying, This man doeth nothing worthy of death or of bonds. 32 Then said Agrippa unto Festus, This man might have been set at liberty, if he had not appealed unto Caesar.

I believe that this account that you pointed out, was written in this way just to prove that no one can persuade someone to become a Christian. It has to be from the working of the Holy Spirit. 

Agrippa specifically says, that "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.", that "thou" is important, it means Paul. As you and I know not everyone that you witness to is going to be convicted by the Holy Spirit....

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> Everyone knows I dont believe OSAS, no secret, but Im not knocking any one that does, I just dont.



Are you an Arminian?

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION

As we continue our messages on the doctrines of grace, we speak today on "Unconditional Election." Our text is I Thessalonians 1:4, "Knowing, brethern beloved, your election of God." Let us then at the very beginning be convinced that election is of God. Realizing this to be true, each one listening to this message should give their most diligent attention to the passages we shall read from God's Word. It is my prayer that the Holy Spirit may open men's hearts and teach them that election is of God. And surely the only way anyone can ever know this, being truly convinced in their heart, is for the Spirit to reveal it to them.

We shall look again at what the Philadelphia Confession of Faith says on this subject. We cannot give you the whole chapter, but a part of it says: "Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ to the praise of His glorious grace, other being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.

"These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, ... hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving Him thereunto.

"As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by His Spirit working in due season are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only."


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## SBG (Mar 21, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Acts 26:24-32
> 24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad. 25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness. 26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner. 27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest. 28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. 29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds. 30 And when he had thus spoken, the king rose up, and the governor, and Bernice, and they that sat with them: 31 And when they were gone aside, they talked between themselves, saying, This man doeth nothing worthy of death or of bonds. 32 Then said Agrippa unto Festus, This man might have been set at liberty, if he had not appealed unto Caesar.
> 
> I believe that this account that you pointed out, was written in this way just to prove that no one can persuade someone to become a Christian. It has to be from the working of the Holy Spirit.
> ...



That thou is no different than saying that preacher at the church. It is a lost person that is under conviction saying that he is almost persuaded. Has nothing to do with the messenger, that isn't even implied in that text. It has everything to do with rejecting the message.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

ELECTION DEFINED

First we must explain what is meant by election. And in brief we shall say, election is a sovereign act of God whereby He chooses certain individuals, from the fallen race, to eternal life for the glory of His name. Let it be remembered that the whole human race is condemned, having not the ability to remedy their awful condition. All mankind sinned in Adam, and fell in Adam; and, so are now dead in trespasses and sins. If salvation were then dependent upon man's ability to choose God, or to become righteous before Him; then none would ever be saved.

God would be just to cast every member of the human family into ImadummyImadummyImadummyImadummy, for each one is but a rebel against God. Man left to himself would choose nothing but sin, bringing eternal judgement upon himself. So it is only because of the choice of God that any shall be saved. One of the clearest definitions of the doctrine of election is found in the first chapter of Ephesians. We begin reading with the third verse, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

Notice it says, "he hath chosen us"; it was His choice, not ours. This choice was made before the foundation of the world and so it could not possibly be founded on anything in us. And note too, that He hath chosen us "in Christ." All the spiritual blessings we have are in Christ. We are chosen in Christ, loved in Christ; in Christ we have righteousness, sanctification, redemption, and "the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace." You cannot separate the doctrine of election from the person of Christ. In fact the more we understand of election, the more we will come to appreciate the glories of Christ's person and desire His intimate fellowship.

Verse five continues, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." How were we predestinated? Was it according to man's free will? No, many wish it said that, but it plainly declares it was according to "His will." "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." You often hear people speak of, "accepting Christ." But if we are to use scriptural language, we must say we are "accepted in Christ." You see the choice is not ours, we would never choose Christ--for our hearts being evil, we would flee from the light rather than come to it.

Yes, God accepted the elect in Christ; and they, and no more shall be saved. The question is then immediately raised, "Why does God choose some, and pass others by leaving them to perish in their sin?" And to this we must give the answer of our Lord Himself, "...Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight." Shall we bring into question the sovereign rights of our Holy God? Can any charge that the God of glory does not do right? No, my friends, let us fall prostrate before Him, and with great awe and wonder repeat that marvellous phrase, "Even so, Father...for so it seemed good in thy sight."

The end of this choice is to make a people like Christ for the praise of His name. He "...hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." The language again points to the fact that salvation is of the Lord, "He raised us"; we didn't raise ourselves. And to the reason for all this--why, He shall show the exceeding riches of His grace. Yes, when the many sons are brought unto glory, and all those who were predestinated have been conformed to the image of Christ; surely then His name shall be greatly magnified, for all that blood washed throng shall fall before His throne singing, "Holy, Holy, Holy," and no doubt even the angels will stand amazed at what God has done for those who were by nature children of wrath.

By unconditional election, we mean that the choice of God was not conditioned on anything within man. Since man was utterly sinful, there was nothing in him to attract the favor of God. Then too, the scriptures plainly declare that this choice is not by the will of man. John 1:13 says, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." To say that election is conditioned on the foreseen faith of man, or any other act of his will would deny this plain passage as well as the rest of God's Word. Again we can say that election must be unconditional, for salvation is by grace; and, so could not be founded on anything in man for then it would be by works.


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## SBG (Mar 21, 2007)

Good discussion folks.

But after 200 something post...I'm done with it.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

SBG said:


> That thou is no different than saying that preacher at the church. It is a lost person that is under conviction saying that he is almost persuaded. Has nothing to do with the messenger, that isn't even implied in that text. It has everything to do with rejecting the message.



Anyone can reject a message from another person....

I do not believe that you or anyone else can reject the Holy Spirit once it has latched hold of you.........


DB BB


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## SBG (Mar 21, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Anyone can reject a message from another person....
> 
> I do not believe that you or anyone else can reject the Holy Spirit once it has latched hold of you.........
> 
> ...



Okay...one more. 

Do you think that it is exclusively the Holy Ghost that can't be rejected or God?


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

ELECTION TAUGHT

Next, we will examine a number of passages dealing with this subject to see how election is taught in the Bible. Time will permit us to make only brief comments. Turn first of all to Nehemiah 9:7 "Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham." You see, it was God who chose Abram; and it was God who brought him forth from the land of idolatry. We cannot possibly attribute Abram's conversion to anything but sovereign mercy.

Look now at Matthew 20:16, "... many be called, but few chosen." Yea, many there be who hear the gospel audibly--that is, they hear the general call--but only few are chosen, and they only hear effectually by the Spirit. Coming now to John's gospel chapter six and verse thirty-seven we read, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Often times the last part of that verse is quoted like the first half was not there. It is true that he who comes will not be cast out, but who comes? Those who come are the ones given to the Son by the Father, they are the elect of God. You see the Father chose a people; Christ entered into the covenant of grace promising to die for those people; and the Spirit pledged Himself to apply salvation to their hearts. Ah, how good to know that every one given to the Son shall come to Him, and if the desire to come is within your heart you know you will not be cast out, for the desire itself is a gift of God.

Verse 44 declares: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him," and then verse 65, "... Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." No man has the desire to come to Christ save the elect of God, and no man has the ability to come except it be given him of the Father. Next we come to chapter 15 and the 16th verse, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit...," now verse 19, "... I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." Some poor soul may reply, "But I chose Christ"; but dear heart if you chose Him it was because He first chose you. If you love Him, it is because He first loved you. If you have any interest in Christ it is because long before you were ever born the Father set his affection upon you, and in time has now wooed you by His Spirit. If you are saved, give Him all the glory; for it is He who hath begun that good work in you (Php. 1:6.).

John 17:2 says, "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." How many shall receive eternal life? As many as the Father chose and gave to the Son. Verse six says, "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word," then verse nine, "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." The prayer of intercession offered up by Christ was not for the whole world, but for the elect. So it was with His death and so with the effectual work of the Spirit, it is for those who have been predestinated unto eternal life.

Coming now to Acts 13:48 we read, "... and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." They did not believe in order to be ordained to eternal life, but they believed because they were ordained to it. In our preaching we urge men to believe on Christ, but none will ever believe except those who were ordained to life; for it is only unto them that the graces of repentance and faith are granted. Let it ever be remembered that our believing is not the cause of God's choice but the evidence of it.

Then in Romans chapter eight we have the various blessings of this great salvation brought to our view. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Oh brethren, that ought to make us shout for joy. Think of it. We who in ourselves are vile, corrupt, and abominable in the sight of God have been made the recipient of these glorious mercies. Notice that "He" who predestinates, it is "He" who calls, it is "He" who justifies, it is ,"He" who glorifies. And we see that all these blessings are linked together, for just as surely as a person is predestinated, he shall be glorified. There is not a place in that great plan of God for a single one of His elect to be lost. What a blessed hope we have! We who have been called shall be glorified--that is, we shall be made like Christ, we shall be delivered from the body of this death, yea, we shall find our eternal employment to be singing of praise unto our Redeemer.

The entire ninth chapter of Romans will be helpful in studying the doctrine of election, but we wish to read verses 11 to 16. "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; ) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." Before the children were born, God loved Jacob and hated Esau; and this was God's sovereign right, for He was under no obligation to love either of them; but His choice was thus made before their birth that His purpose might not rest upon works, but upon His own mercy. None can charge that there is unrighteousness with God; because as the potter has power over the clay, He has power of His creatures.

II Thessalonians 2:13 says, "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth..." And then we turn to II Timothy 1:9, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Surely you can see from these many scriptures that unconditional election is taught in the Bible. Once the Spirit opens your heart to this truth, you will be able to see that it is taught from Genesis through Revelation. And though this doctrine strikes the death blow at the pride which is in men, and thus often is resented by them; we believe it to be a most glorious and comforting truth. I wouldn't waste five minutes arguing about this doctrine or any other teaching of God's Word, but often, there are those who have sincere questions. I couldn't deal with every question in this broadcast, but it might be profitable to consider a few.

One question which is asked frequently is, "Doesn't man have a choice?" To this we answer, man had a choice in the garden of Eden; but in Adam he chose sin and so lost his ability to choose good. Many times people will attempt to refute this doctrine by saying, "I believe that whosoever will may come." And it is true that the thirsty may drink of the living water, the hungry may eat of the bread of life, the weary may come and rest, the willing may come and be received; but, the thirst for the water, the hunger for the bread, the desire for the rest, and the willingness to come are all given by the Lord and are given only to His elect.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

ELECTION PROFITABLE

Having seen that election is a Bible doctrine, we shall further consider that election is profitable. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable..."; and since election is taught in the Scriptures, it must be profitable. First we can say it is profitable because it gives us the only proper view of God. You cannot truly worship God unless you believe He is sovereign. In fact any Christian service which does not rest upon the foundation of God's sovereignty and does not recognize His choice of a certain people, is nothing more than an expression of carnal energy put forth for the glory of man.

Secondly, we know the preaching of election is profitable because it puts man in the dust. You can't go to seed on preaching this truth because you can't exalt God too much and you can't put man low enough. We are made to see our own corruption, and come to realize that anything we get better than ImadummyImadummyImadummyImadummy must be by sovereign grace. 

Election is a most glorious display of God's love and mercy. God has determined before the foundation of the world to call out from the fallen race a people for His name, and in time Jesus Christ came from glory and died for these upon the cross-- redeeming them from sin. These are quickened by the Spirit, called by the gospel, eternally justified, and shall be glorified at the coming of the Lord. Oh my friend , there is a reason for us to shout the praises of our Saviour. This doctrine is not hard and cold, but causes us to become chiefly interested in the person of Christ in whom we have been chosen. This doctrine will not lead to a licentious life; for He has predestinated us to be holy, and no man has the right to claim he is one of God's elect unless the seal of holiness is upon his soul. 

But some sinner may ask, "How can I know I am one of God's elect?" And I ask you, do you see yourself a sinner? Do you realize that God would be just to cast you into ImadummyImadummyImadummyImadummy? Do you have any desire for Christ? Do you long to be saved from sin? Oh, sinner friend, if these attitudes are in your heart, if our Lord has granted unto you repentance and faith, you can know you are one of the elect. All that the Father gave the Son shall come to Him, and those who are thus willing shall not be refused. May He grant you grace to flee to Christ for refuge this day.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

SBG said:


> Okay...one more.
> 
> Do you think that it is exclusively the Holy Ghost that can't be rejected or God?



All 3, you know The TRINTIY!!   

DB BB


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## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Are you an Arminian?
> 
> DB BB



     Heck NO !!!!


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## SBG (Mar 21, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> All 3, you know The TRINTIY!!
> 
> DB BB



How do you explain Satan's fall?

How do you explain Adam and Eve's sin?

How do you explain David's transgression?

How do you explain how a born again Christian can sin after salvation? I mean, the same Holy Spirit that you think cannot be rejected at salvation, can now lose power and cannot keep a born again regenerate from sinning?


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## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2007)

SBG said:


> How do you explain how a born again Christian can sin after salvation? I mean, the same Holy Spirit that you think cannot be rejected at salvation, can now lose power and cannot keep a born again regenerate from sinning?



Salvation loosing no power, its man that wont listen.

I am assuming Hebrews 10:26 was to the sinner before Christ  but wait he said after..............


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

How do you explain Satan's fall? It was Satan's Choice. This choice has nothing to do with Salvation.

How do you explain Adam and Eve's sin? It was Adam's Choice. This choice has nothing to do with Salvation.

How do you explain David's transgression? It was David's Choice. This choice has nothing to do with Salvation.

How do you explain how a born again Christian can sin after salvation? I mean, the same Holy Spirit that you think cannot be rejected at salvation, can now lose power and cannot keep a born again regenerate from sinning?
Even after Salvation, we still Sin(you know this as well as I do), the difference is that a Person that is Saved, can now do good deeds and bad deeds. After Salvation, you are still HUMAN, you are not a god. No man can live a perfect life, only Jesus.

Did you not read the Confession of Faith Posts, particularly the "Of Free Will" post? I will bump it to the top for ya....

DB BB


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## SBG (Mar 21, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> How do you explain Satan's fall? It was Satan's Choice. This choice has nothing to do with Salvation.
> 
> How do you explain Adam and Eve's sin? It was Adam's Choice. This choice has nothing to do with Salvation.
> 
> ...



Honestly? No, I didn't read it. I have studied it all before, and an convinced, so I didn't go through it. I apologize. 

Really there is nothing that any of us are discussing that is new or hasn't been debated for centuries. I know I can't change anyone's mine, only God can do that.

But if God can take a person like me, that was raised in an apsotate church and teach me the truth of the Bible, I guess anything is possible.


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## Twenty five ought six (Mar 21, 2007)

> How do you explain Adam and Eve's sin? It was Adam's Choice. This choice has nothing to do with Salvation.



Now there's a really simplistic analysis.

If Adam had not sinned, there would be no need for salvation.

Did Adam really have a choice, or was he predestined to fail to obey God.  If so that means God either created an imperfect creature, or that God created the tree of knowledge knowing that man could not resist it, told man to resist it, knowing what the results would be.  This makes God capricious and cruel.


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## SouthOfTheMasonDixon (Mar 21, 2007)

Twenty five ought six said:


> If Adam had not sinned, there would be no need for salvation.
> 
> Did Adam really have a choice, or was he predestined to fail to obey God.  If so that means God either created an imperfect creature, or that God created the tree of knowledge knowing that man could not resist it, told man to resist it, knowing what the results would be.  This makes God capricious and cruel.


That's what you call nail-on-the-head.

If man is sinful by nature and God made man, then God _chose_ to make man sinful by nature and surround him with temptation.

You might counter that man has free will and chooses to be sinful.  Again, though, this would have to be God's design.  Otherwise, you would have to make the claim that God, who is omniscient, did not _intend_ for man to have a sinful nature.  If God did not _intend_ for man to be sinful by nature, then man arrived with unexpected results.  That makes either God _not_ omniscient or capable of making mistakes yet God is perfect and therefore incapable of mistakes.

Paradox!

What of people who live in areas where Christianity is either unknown or regarded as the wrong religion?  Are they all denied entrance to Heaven for an accident of birth location?

What about babies and young children who die?  By the claims made here, they are totally depraved and should therefore _not_ go to Heaven as they have not accepted the salvation of Christ.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 21, 2007)

Vernon Holt said:


> Quote by Adpruett2) "_Okay, threejays, this is the way it's been taught to me so as to be easily explainable_". (quote from "once saved always saved", post #19)
> 
> I was intrigued when reading the above quotation. I was reminded of a statement made by a Godly minister who had been 50 years in the ministry.
> 
> ...


Vernon, Give me a break. If you think it was special training or brainwashing that lead me to my beliefs, you are wrong. Special training? That's funny! Sorry i should have been more specific so you could follow it. This is the way the Lord has revealed it to me............. Is that better? OR AM I BEING CUNNING AND CRAFTY???


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 21, 2007)

SBG said:


> Good discussion folks.
> 
> But after 200 something post...I'm done with it.


I'm bored with it too! Respect your opinions people except the guy who called my God wimpy. Everybody else did a good job wether we agree or not. I usually hang around the fishing threads but have enjoyed it. Looking forward to the next biggun. 

Double Barrel, stay in touch man.

SBG and Pwalls, your wrong but i like you anyway!!!!!


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## PWalls (Mar 21, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> SBG and Pwalls, your wrong but i like you anyway!!!!!



Back at ya dude. Look forward to seeing you in Heaven.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

SBG said:


> Honestly? No, I didn't read it. I have studied it all before, and an convinced, so I didn't go through it. I apologize.
> 
> Really there is nothing that any of us are discussing that is new or hasn't been debated for centuries. I know I can't change anyone's mine, only God can do that.
> 
> But if God can take a person like me, that was raised in an apsotate church and teach me the truth of the Bible, I guess anything is possible.


 

Amen SBG!!!  Anything is possible with GOD!!!!! 

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> I'm bored with it too! Respect your opinions people except the guy who called my God wimpy. Everybody else did a good job wether we agree or not. I usually hang around the fishing threads but have enjoyed it. Looking forward to the next biggun.
> 
> Double Barrel, stay in touch man.
> 
> SBG and Pwalls, your wrong but i like you anyway!!!!!


 

Looking forward to Tag Teaming the next topic with you man!!! 

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 21, 2007)

I'm done also.


Enjoyed the debate!!!  Haven't had one like this in a long time....made me have to go back and study more.... Thanks!!

Ya'll be Good and I will be joining another debate with or against you pretty soon, I am sure!!!

Love Ya Brothers in Christ!!!!

DB BB


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## SBG (Mar 21, 2007)

And everyone said....Amen!


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## FishFanatic (Mar 22, 2007)

WAIT!!!!!!  I got one more thing.  First question, to an electionist.  Do you still witness?  What about mission work?  Generally carry out the great commission?  I think this has already been answered.  Okay....if the answers are yes, then how about this.  

I believe in free will/choice, but I know that there will be many that do not choose God.  So in the end (percentages aside), some are in heaven and some are not.  

Election, same deal.....some are in heaven and some are not.   

So what does it matter?  But obviously this would only apply if we carry out the faith the same way.  So far it seems like we do.  

Just a thought.


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## Thanatos (Mar 22, 2007)

So why could God not foreknow our future decision to accept him at the dawn of "our" time when he decided to create us. As the thought of creation entered his head he foreknew every choice every being he created ever. So through the foreknowledge of our freewill he called us. Whats wrong with this way of thought?


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## SBG (Mar 22, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> So why could God not foreknow our future decision to accept him at the dawn of "our" time when he decided to create us. As the thought of creation entered his head he foreknew every choice every being he created ever. So through the foreknowledge of our freewill he called us. Whats wrong with this way of thought?



Aboslutely nothing wrong with that...that is how predestination works.

Cudos!


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

because it would be of man's will and not of God's will. It's not how it works. Also, if being saved by accepting Christ as personal saviour is the way to get into heaven, then it absolutely rules out anyone before Christ or anyone who has never heard of Jesus. Freewill to what? Being a good person? The bible says that is not so.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

What you have said is the only thing someone who believes in freewill can say because if not for that, they can not harmonize election and freewill. They will never harmonize. They are contrary


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## Thanatos (Mar 22, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> What you have said is the only thing someone who believes in freewill can say because if not for that, they can not harmonize election and freewill. They will never harmonize. They are contrary



In your view, is it possible for the holy spirit to come over a being and that being reject it???


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

That would be freewill wouldn't it?


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## Thanatos (Mar 22, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> That would be freewill wouldn't it?



In your view, is it possible for the holy spirit to come over a being and that being reject it??? (Hint: this is a yes or no answer)


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 22, 2007)

From: christiananswers.net

Election of Grace

The Scripture speaks...

...of the election of individuals to office or to honor and privilege, e.g., Abraham, Jacob, Saul, David, Solomon, were all chosen by God for the positions they held; so also were the apostles.

There is also an election of nations to special privileges, e.g., the Hebrews ( Deut. 7:6; Rom. 9:4).

But in addition there is an election of individuals to eternal life ( 2 Thess. 2:13; Eph. 1:4; 1 Pet. 1:2; John 13:18).

The ground of this election to salvation is the good pleasure of God ( Eph. 1:5, 11; Matt. 11:25,26; John 15:16, 19). God claims the right so to do ( Rom. 9:16, 21).

It is not conditioned on faith or repentance, but is of soverign grace ( Rom. 11:4-6; Eph. 1:3-6). All that pertain to salvation, the means ( Eph. 2:8; 2 Thess. 2:13) as well as the end, are of God ( Acts 5:31; 2 Tim. 2:25; 1 Cor. 1:30; Eph. 2:5, 10). Faith and repentance and all other graces are the exercises of a regenerated soul; and regeneration is God's work, a "new creature."

Men are elected "to salvation," "to the adoption of sons," "to be holy and without blame before him in love" ( 2 Thess. 2:13; Gal. 4:4,5; Eph. 1:4). The ultimate end of election is the praise of God's grace ( Eph. 1:6, 12). (See PREDESTINATION.)


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 22, 2007)

From: christiananswers.net

Predestination

This word is properly used only with reference to God's plan or purpose of salvation. The Greek word rendered "predestinate" is found only in these six passages, Acts 4:28; Rom. 8:29, 30; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 1:5, 11; and in all of them it has the same meaning. They teach that the eternal, sovereign, immutable, and unconditional decree or "determinate purpose" of God governs all events.

This doctrine of predestination or election is beset with many difficulties. It belongs to the "secret things" of God. But if we take the revealed word of God as our guide, we must accept this doctrine with all its mysteriousness, and settle all our questionings in the humble, devout acknowledgment, "Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight."

For the teaching of Scripture on this subject let the following passages be examined in addition to those referred to above; Gen. 21:12; Ex. 9:16; 33:19; Deut. 10:15; 32:8; Josh. 11:20; 1 Sam. 12:22; 2 Chr. 6:6; Ps. 33:12; 65:4; 78:68; 135:4; Isa. 41:1-10; Jer. 1:5; Mark 13:20; Luke 22:22; John 6:37; 15:16; 17:2, 6, 9; Acts 2:28; 3:18; 4:28; 13:48; 17:26; Rom. 9:11, 18, 21; 11:5; Eph. 3:11; 1 Thess. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2; 1 Pet. 1:2. (See DECREES OF GOD; ELECTION.)

Hodge has well remarked that, "rightly understood, this doctrine (1) exalts the majesty and absolute sovereignty of God, while it illustrates the riches of his free grace and his just displeasure with sin. (2.) It enforces upon us the essential truth that salvation is entirely of grace. That no one can either complain if passed over, or boast himself if saved. (3.) It brings the inquirer to absolute self-despair and the cordial embrace of the free offer of Christ. (4.) In the case of the believer who has the witness in himself, this doctrine at once deepens his humility and elevates his confidence to the full assurance of hope" (Outlines).


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## SouthOfTheMasonDixon (Mar 22, 2007)

It's certainly depressing that Hades is full of babies.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

SouthOfTheMasonDixon said:


> It's certainly depressing that Hades is full of babies.


why say that?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> In your view, is it possible for the holy spirit to come over a being and that being reject it??? (Hint: this is a yes or no answer)


If were are talking about it in the same context, i would say daily. If I'm understanding where you are going with your question.


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## SouthOfTheMasonDixon (Mar 22, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> why say that?


If it is true that we are "condemned at birth" and the _only_ way to Heaven is by accepting the salvation of Christ, then it follows that _all_ who die without accepting Christ _do not_ go to Heaven.  Babies and children have not accepted Christ as they are too young to have had a chance.  Since they have not accepted Christ, they cannot go to Heaven; there's only one other place.


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## Thanatos (Mar 22, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> If were are talking about it in the same context, i would say daily. If I'm understanding where you are going with your question.



I apologize for my poor grammar and sentence structure. I wanted to know if you believe that God can convict a man/woman and then the human reject Him.


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## Thanatos (Mar 22, 2007)

Also, if we have no free will then explain the fall of humanity to me in the election theory. God elected Eve and Adam to become less perfect?????


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## SBG (Mar 22, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> Also, if we have no free will then explain the fall of humanity to me in the election theory. God elected Eve and Adam to become less perfect?????



Good luck!


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

SouthOfTheMasonDixon said:


> If it is true that we are "condemned at birth" and the _only_ way to Heaven is by accepting the salvation of Christ, then it follows that _all_ who die without accepting Christ _do not_ go to Heaven. Babies and children have not accepted Christ as they are too young to have had a chance. Since they have not accepted Christ, they cannot go to Heaven; there's only one other place.


Ask a freewiller that since i don't believe in accepting Christ as personal saviour. That's not my theology. I'm an election guy.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

SBG said:


> Good luck!


Thanks


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## Thanatos (Mar 22, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> Thanks



So does this mean a REAL good answer is coming??? I hope so. I love theology


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> So does this mean a REAL good answer is coming??? I hope so. I love theology


listen, i've got to take my son to ball practice and don't have time to get deep right now. Can you get back on tonight around 9? I should have time then


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## Thanatos (Mar 22, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> listen, i've got to take my son to ball practice and don't have time to get deep right now. Can you get back on tonight around 9? I should have time then



REALLY looking forward to it! Tell your son good luck from the WOOD!


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

Okay Thanatos or wood, send me a p.m. of all your questions so we can get going. I know a couple but will that be all?


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## Thanatos (Mar 22, 2007)

WOOD=Woody's

Just the questions that I have posted so far.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

If you are talking about convicting a man so he will make a choice of eternal salvation, the answer is we don't even believe in that. God regenerates the sinner when he wills. Can man reject following God after he is quickened. Yes.

We do believe that man controls his walk here on earth. Your question was if man has no freewill.......Man has a will and he decides how he walks here on Earth. The Word says he will never come to God, he can't. Which is why God took action. But we believe in freewill aside from that. It's deeper than that but I figure your laying ground work for a bigger picture question, huh?


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## Thanatos (Mar 22, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> If you are talking about convicting a man so he will make a choice of eternal salvation, the answer is we don't even believe in that. God regenerates the sinner when he wills. Can man reject following God after he is quickened. Yes.
> 
> We do believe that man controls his walk here on earth. Your question was if man has no freewill.......Man has a will and he decides how he walks here on Earth. The Word says he will never come to God, he can't. Which is why God took action. But we believe in freewill aside from that. It's deeper than that but I figure your laying ground work for a bigger picture question, huh?



Nope, i just want to know why GOD destined Adam and Eve to fall. Can you explain this?


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> Nope, i just want to know why GOD destined Adam and Eve to fall. Can you explain this?


He didn't


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## Thanatos (Mar 22, 2007)

So i thought that freewill and election did not harmonize.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

They don't, eternally.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 22, 2007)

You think they do?


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## Thanatos (Mar 23, 2007)

adpruitt2 said:


> You think they do?



Yes. To be blunt and to the point Satan believes in God. God created Satan. God is not the author of sin. Satan fell from the grace of God by his own "choice". Explain how this can be in your view.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 23, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> Yes. To be blunt and to the point Satan believes in God. God created Satan. God is not the author of sin. Satan fell from the grace of God by his own "choice". Explain how this can be in your view.



Last I checked, Satan used to be an Angel, but then he choose to rebell....

Satan was not human, so therefore, he not like you and me. 

What we(adpruitt and I) have been trying to say is you and I have choices, a free will to do what we want, but not when it comes to salvation. God chooses who will be Saved, anything less and it takes the power away from an omnipotent Being. Who better to choose you or I unto Salvation than an Omni-everything, Just and Holy God...

Try reading Romans Chapter 9... that might explain it alittle better....


DB BB


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 23, 2007)

yeah, i wouldn't compare Satan to humans. Too much of a stretch i fear. Election pertains to the human race, not the angels as DoubleBB said. Apples and Oranges.


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## Thanatos (Mar 23, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Last I checked, Satan used to be an Angel, but then he choose to rebell....
> 
> Satan was not human, so therefore, he not like you and me.
> 
> ...



Romans chapter 9 is what i base what I believe on. Thanks though. God knew us at the beginning of "time". He knew us on the foreknowledge of our own free wills. God knows our wills and choses us so. With God being omnipotent he knew all our choices the single second he thought about bringing us about. Satan was a creation of God and has no control over him, and is not omnipotent. God gave the Seraphim a free will the same as us.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 23, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> Romans chapter 9 is what i base what I believe on. Thanks though. God knew us at the beginning of "time". He knew us on the foreknowledge of our own free wills. God knows our wills and choses us so. With God being omnipotent he knew all our choices the single second he thought about bringing us about. Satan was a creation of God and has no control over him, and is not omnipotent. God gave the Seraphim a free will the same as us.



So if he knows every choice we would make though our free wills, then is it really free will???

You say God knew absolutely everything. Then He knew how everything would play out so to speak right? Than everything that happens is according to a plan the God knew about when He created everything.... I don't see a Free Will in that...

DB BB


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## Ramblin' Wreck (Mar 23, 2007)

Just because he knew how everything would turn out does not mean that he chose how things would come out. If things turn out a certain way because of our free will, it doesnt mean that he didnt know it would happen. He just knew the future type thing.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 23, 2007)

Ramblin' Wreck said:


> Just because he knew how everything would turn out does not mean that he chose how things would come out. If things turn out a certain way because of our free will, it doesnt mean that he didnt know it would happen. He just knew the future type thing.



Omniscient: having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

So you are saying that He knows that we(human race) will get to a certain point in time somewhere in the future, but He doesn't know the inbetween?

DB BB


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## Thanatos (Mar 23, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Omniscient: having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.
> 
> So you are saying that He knows that we(human race) will get to a certain point in time somewhere in the future, but He doesn't know the inbetween?
> 
> DB BB



The single second the thought of creating the human race entered God's head he knew every single footstep every man would ever take in all of their life times. The reason post like this are kinda pointless is that we all are putting human thoughts and tendencies into what we believe. No one can comprehend what God thought. That is impossible for us. We as human try to put God in a box (a human box) that he just does not fit into.


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## Smithstill77 (Mar 23, 2007)

IF WE ARE ALL IN SIN AFTER THE FALL AND SIN IS DEATH 
THEN HOW CAN A DEAD MAN DO ANYTHING.  UNLESS SOMETHING DRAWS HIM.


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## SBG (Mar 23, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> The reason post like this are kinda pointless is that we all are putting human thoughts and tendencies into what we believe. No one can comprehend what God thought. That is impossible for us. We as human try to put God in a box (a human box) that he just does not fit into.




You're right...and that is why God gave us His Word and spiritual discernment.


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## Double Barrel BB (Apr 6, 2007)

SPURGEON REJECTED THE DOCTRINE OF RESISTIBLE GRACE:
"Oh!" say some, "if the man wont have God, then, of course, God cannot get him;" and we have heard it preached, and we read it frequently that salvation entirely depends upon man’s will — that if man stands out and resists God’s Holy Spirit, the creature can be the conqueror of the Creator, and finite power can overcome the infinite. Frequently I take up a book and I read "Oh! sinner, be willing, for unless thou art, God cannot save thee;" and sometimes we are asked, "How is it that such an one is not saved?" And the answer is "He is not willing to be; God strove with him, but he would not be saved." Aye but suppose he had striven with him, as he did with those who are saved, would he have been saved then? "No, he would have resisted." Nay, we answer, it is not in man’s will, it is not of the will of the flesh, nor of blood, but of the power of God; and we never can entertain such an absurd idea as, that man can conquer Omnipotence, that the might of man is greater than the might of God. We believe indeed that certain usual influences of the Holy Spirit may be overcome; we believe that there are general operations of the Spirit in many men’s hearts which are resisted and rejected, but the effectual working of the Holy Ghost with the determination to save, could not be resisted, unless you suppose God overcome by his creatures, and the purpose of Deity frustrated by the will of man, which were to suppose something akin to blasphemy. (Sermon No. 93 God in the Covenant: New Park Gate Pulpit 2:516-517)


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## Twenty five ought six (Apr 6, 2007)

> and the purpose of Deity frustrated by the will of man,



Seems to me that the Bible is full of examples of this very thing, starting with the story of original sin.

If the will of the Deity can't be frustrated by man, why did Jesus go through all that rigmarole with the devil --Jesus couldn't have yielded to temptation if he'd wanted to.  And why did he waste his time praying that this cup pass from him?


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