# Is my metal roof toast???



## Rivershot (Apr 21, 2014)

Hi all, My house and roof are 10 years old. Last year, late summer, I developed a few leeks all at one time in a heavy rain. A day or 2 later I went out and looked at the roof. 30-40% of the screws were backed out, some to the point of falling out. So I had the screws tightened up and any that felt weak were replaced with larger #12. 

 Now it's happening again. Has anyone had this happen before? I know the washers are only good for 15-20 years but what's causing this?

 Thanks for any help or answers and if you are in the Macon area and do metal roofing send me a PM please.


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## Atlanta Dawg (Apr 21, 2014)

Perhaps it is wind damage !!! Consider contacting your home owners insurance company.  They don't just back out on their own I don't think !!


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## westcobbdog (Apr 21, 2014)

hope its wind damage. I have a self storage facility for sale and we just discovered some leaks in its metal roof, we think due to the wrong type screws being used.


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## T-N-T (Apr 21, 2014)

Nails back out when wood expands and contracts and thus push the nail up.  I have Never seen screw do this.  Big or small.  I am at a loss for why a screw would back out,  that just isnt normal.


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## Rivershot (Apr 21, 2014)

I had not considered wind damage. I don't think it is but??

I'm thinking bad screws? The ones that would not tighten back up probably had a little water damage in the wood and required a larger screw to tighten in down but, now even those are backing out.


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## skiff23 (Apr 21, 2014)

Mostly it was installed wrong. The company we buy our metal roofing and screws from recommend at least 1" solid bond of wood . THAT means a 2x4 under your metal to screw to. A  lot of guys are either screwing the metal straight down on top of the shingles to the OSB or plywood with a thickness of 1/2" at most. They are doing such to keep a "cheaper price".  You may have to remove all screws and replace with a larger 5/16 headed screw and fill the hole with lexel are some other adhesive to help bond  or remove the metal and strip with 2x4's and reinstall the old metal or new metal.   
And for the record, metal done right is still the best way to go to me. I install more metal roofs than shingles. I have not had problems yet ( knock on wood). I have been doing it better than 15 years.


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## jigman29 (Apr 28, 2014)

I agree with the above post.I have seen lots of roofs screwed straight to an older shingle roof instead of lath.When we were doing metal roofs we would come back after a year and tighten the screws as part of the original price.Very seldom had many loosen up especially not 30-40 percent.


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## lonewolf247 (Apr 28, 2014)

skiff23 said:


> Mostly it was installed wrong. The company we buy our metal roofing and screws from recommend at least 1" solid bond of wood . THAT means a 2x4 under your metal to screw to. A  lot of guys are either screwing the metal straight down on top of the shingles to the OSB or plywood with a thickness of 1/2" at most. They are doing such to keep a "cheaper price".  You may have to remove all screws and replace with a larger 5/16 headed screw and fill the hole with lexel are some other adhesive to help bond  or remove the metal and strip with 2x4's and reinstall the old metal or new metal.
> And for the record, metal done right is still the best way to go to me. I install more metal roofs than shingles. I have not had problems yet ( knock on wood). I have been doing it better than 15 years.




Yeah, this is your problem!  Metal done right, makes a good roof for a long time.  Metal done wrong(screwing through plywood only) will come back to bite you.  The last intensive hurricane here, blew off prolly over 75% of the metal roofs in the affected area, because they were not done right.


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## Gadestroyer74 (Apr 28, 2014)

Why would you use a 2x4 and not a 1x4 just curious ? Wouldn't the 2x4 warp ?


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## lonewolf247 (Apr 28, 2014)

Gadestroyer74 said:


> Why would you use a 2x4 and not a 1x4 just curious ? Wouldn't the 2x4 warp ?



The problem is, a 1"x4" is 3/4" thick, and not sufficient deptwise to hold the screw tight. Under heavy wind conditions, it can pull out.  Better than 7/16"-5/8" OSB but I personally wouldn't trust my roof to it.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 28, 2014)

When your roof was done, many of the screws were not "biting". This from many reasons. It happens. It can be a pain in the rear. I now personally screw 100% of my own screws. If they don't "bite" a trip into the attic to put a block under so that it grabs. I can not do this at the overhangs so it sometimes presents a problem. I used to have a partner who would use a drill and set it to "clutch". After seeing him "strip out" over 50 % of the screws he installed, I will never work with him again. I use  cordless impact where I can turn a screw 1/16 if I want to. 100 % control. You can not do this with a  cordless drill . So, the laborers were either stripping out your screws or they were not biting. Now they have pulled out. I have seen guys just lay a screw in the hole. If the washer does not snug up, it will leak. If to tight, it can strip as well as "dimple". You have a couple choices. Pull them all out and go back with a screw 2x as thick or block every loose screw. If your plywood is "soft", bigger screws might not work. Your metal will be fine. Worst case, you may have to pull your metal off, tear off the soft plywood, replace plywood and reinstall your same metal. Good luck


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## T-N-T (Apr 28, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> When your roof was done, many of the screws were not "biting". This from many reasons. It happens. It can be a pain in the rear. I now personally screw 100% of my own screws. If they don't "bite" a trip into the attic to put a block under so that it grabs. I can not do this at the overhangs so it sometimes presents a problem. I used to have a partner who would use a drill and set it to "clutch". After seeing him "strip out" over 50 % of the screws he installed, I will never work with him again. I use  cordless impact where I can turn a screw 1/16 if I want to. 100 % control. You can not do this with a  cordless drill . So, the laborers were either stripping out your screws or they were not biting. Now they have pulled out. I have seen guys just lay a screw in the hole. If the washer does not snug up, it will leak. If to tight, it can strip as well as "dimple". You have a couple choices. Pull them all out and go back with a screw 2x as thick or block every loose screw. If your plywood is "soft", bigger screws might not work. Your metal will be fine. Worst case, you may have to pull your metal off, tear off the soft plywood, replace plywood and reinstall your same metal. Good luck



I see many a man strip a screw because they dont control the drill when the screw is nearly seated....  1 great builder is on to something I bet.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 28, 2014)

lonewolf247 said:


> The problem is, a 1"x4" is 3/4" thick, and not sufficient deptwise to hold the screw tight. Under heavy wind conditions, it can pull out.  Better than 7/16"-5/8" OSB but I personally wouldn't trust my roof to it.


You would have a hard time pulling it out with a claw hammer. Try it


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## lonewolf247 (Apr 28, 2014)

^That's correct too about stripping out the screw holes in the wood, and typically that's what happens when screws are installed into wood not thick enough. There isn't enough thickness for the threads to hold right.  Even in thicker wood, they need to be tightened properly.


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## lonewolf247 (Apr 28, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> You would have a hard time pulling it out with a claw hammer. Try it



I agree if it was tightend properly by someone like yourself, however send up an incompetent crew, like many fly by night outfits, and it's easy to over-tighten them, split them, whatever, and they will pull out quite easy.  A 1x4 is a lot better than 1/2" plywood only, I agree.  Like I said, I wouldn't have it done that way on my house. You might get away with it, in your area, but after seeing as many houses without roofs in my area, after the last bad hurricane, no thanks. Thicker wood is a little more forgiving....


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 28, 2014)

I predrill all my holes. Some don't do this. Therefore, you can have  a false "grab". Reason being that the washer is pulled up to the metal because of the metal to screw grab and not because of the wood to screw grab. This does not often show itself as a problem.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 28, 2014)

lonewolf247 said:


> I agree if it was tightend properly by someone like yourself, however send up an incompetent crew, like many fly by night outfits, and it's easy to over-tighten them, split them, whatever, and they will pull out quite easy.  A 1x4 is a lot better than 1/2" plywood only. Like I said, I wouldn't have it done that way on my house. You might get away with it, in your area, but after seeing as many houses without roofs in my area, after the last bad hurricane, no thanks. Thicker wood is a little more forgiving....


Not had any hurricanes around here lately. But I would like to think that my roofs would hold better than my competition. Partially because I use more screws per square foot and mainly because I use "gable trim". Most around here just let it hang over. Mercy, don't know how they get work.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 28, 2014)

Rivershot said:


> Hi all, *My house and roof are 10 years old. *Last year, late summer, I developed a few leeks all at one time in a heavy rain. A day or 2 later I went out and looked at the roof. 30-40% of the screws were backed out, some to the point of falling out. So I had the screws tightened up and any that felt weak were replaced with larger #12.
> 
> Now it's happening again. Has anyone had this happen before? I know the washers are only good for 15-20 years but what's causing this?
> 
> Thanks for any help or answers and if you are in the Macon area and do metal roofing send me a PM please.


I just saw this. Most "soft" plywood comes in older homes poorly vented which cooked the glue out of the plywood. You plywood should not be like this. I suspect they stripped them out. Laborers do it every time. As much as I told my guys, they think tighter is better. That is why I finially just made up my mind to do it myself


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## lonewolf247 (Apr 28, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Not had any hurricanes around here lately. But I would like to think that my roofs would hold better than my competition. Partially because I use more screws per square foot and mainly because I use "gable trim". Most around here just let it hang over. Mercy, don't know how they get work.



Sounds like you do a good job!  I wasn't trying to imply your doing anything wrong.  I tend to always error on the side towards overbuilding things. Especially when it comes to something like my house.  Also, like I said, we are in hurricane areas here.


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## skiff23 (Apr 28, 2014)

I only use impacts to put on metal. They are a lot better at getting the tension proper on the screws. I also put on gable rake, and There is a fine line between enough screws and to many. Yes you can have to many. More chance for leaks and you can rip the stripping with the screws if you have to many. A fast cheap job will get you a new roof in 8-10 years. I will put my roofing against anybody's. I have fixed a lot of my competition s roofs , cheap is cheap .


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 28, 2014)

lonewolf247 said:


> Sounds like you do a good job!  I wasn't trying to imply your doing anything wrong.  I tend to always error on the side towards overbuilding things. Especially when it comes to something like my house.  Also, like I said, we are in hurricane areas here.


I did not take it that way. All is good. And you would be correct that more depth is better.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 28, 2014)

skiff23 said:


> I only use impacts to put on metal. They are a lot better at getting the tension proper on the screws. I also put on gable rake, and There is a fine line between enough screws and to many. Yes you can have to many. More chance for leaks and you can rip the stripping with the screws if you have to many. A fast cheap job will get you a new roof in 8-10 years. I will put my roofing against anybody's. I have fixed a lot of my competition s roofs , cheap is cheap .


Hey Skiff, I bet you have also seen some crappy flashing jobs. I sure have.


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## crackerdave (Apr 29, 2014)

Thanks for all the good info! I'm fixin' to get a metal roof over 30 year old shingles.Any recommendations for someone in the Lagrange area to do it right?


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## Rivershot (Apr 29, 2014)

Thanks for the answers to my questions.

I agree that it is most likely incorrect installation and that is my fault, (GULP) I was the installer. I basically copied what a company did to a house next door to my old house.

 There's no attic, the upstairs is finished like an A-frame. I had intended to do it old school style with no decking and 2x4 slats. The inspector said I had to deck it. So while working on a tight budget and when 1x4's were half the price of 2X's ( now they are the same or less) I decked it with 3/8 ply, put down 30# felt and treated 1X4's, used 1, 5/8 screws. On the porch I used the 1X4' and 3/4'' screws and had some problems from the get go of stripped screws. 

 The main problem is all of this was 10-11 years ago and I was a LOT younger back then and I'm not getting back up there. Anyone in the Macon area that wants to come help me out with an estimate or advise? Should I try for an insurance claim?

 I did everything on this house except for the block/masonary work and well, and both of those have had many problems.

Thanks.


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## skiff23 (Apr 29, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey Skiff, I bet you have also seen some crappy flashing jobs. I sure have.



Sure have. I had one competitor for awhile that flashed NOTHING. Only silicone. It was amazing what he got away with.  And of course no inspectors.


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## NCHillbilly (Apr 29, 2014)

Never saw screws back out. The metal roof on my mom's house is 70+ years old with no leaks or problems, ever. And it's nailed down with no washers.


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## skiff23 (Apr 30, 2014)

NCHillbilly said:


> Never saw screws back out. The metal roof on my mom's house is 70+ years old with no leaks or problems, ever. And it's nailed down with no washers.



Probably put on with green YELLOW pine and ring shank nails. The old pine was a lot denser and stronger. Once you pounded the old ring shanks in it help and you could not hardly pull them out if you  wanted to. THe wood now is not near that good. And the spruce is as about as strong as a half rotted yellow pine board. Amazing what the building code reflects .


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## tree cutter 08 (Apr 30, 2014)

My current house roof has osb stripped with 2x4s with no problems. Going to be building a new house pretty soon and guy I talked to about building said he put down 5x8 plywood and put the metal directly on top, and didn't strip. Said he never has had any trouble. Bad idea or stick with the 2x4s?


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## whchunter (Apr 30, 2014)

*New Roof*

Been pricing installing a new metal over my existing fiberglass roof so this is great information. A couple of questions. I don't live in a hurricane area.

1. In reading the comments some one said that 2x4s are now as cheap as 1x4s. Is this true?

2. Should lumber lath be treated wood?

3. Some roofers quote bubble wrap with aluminum face. When should this be used and what are the pros and cons? 

4. Should underlayment (30# felt) be installed or only if existing shingles are removed?

5. Someone said you need one inch wood penetration. If you use 1x4s and screw thru that as well as your decking board isn't that enough?

6. What is the length of screw needed using 1x4s vs 2x4s?

7. How many screws are needed?  

8. How important is pre-drilling and how many do this? I'll bet it would drive the price up drastically.

9. My house has one room that has a vaulted ceiling and has exposed tongue and groove. What if any special treatment should be used over this area?  I'm thinking bubble wrap for extra insulation and 2x4s to assure better grab.

10. If you go with 2x4s it would create quite a opening at the ends. Is anything used to prevent access by insects etc?

11. Any boot or vent trim advice?


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## whchunter (Apr 30, 2014)

*More Questions*

I found this online and wondered if you had any comments


If you do install battens, I personally would suggest vertical battens first and then horizontal battens. Spacing of the battens will be specified by the roofing manufacturer. Vertical battens would allow you to create a vented airspace between the metal and the roof deck. That vented space will really help with energy efficiency. - See more at: http://www.metalroofing.com/v2/foru...yId=44&forumTopicId=3829#sthash.ZSaJftYR.dpuf

That said, though, I am a firm believer in new underlayment beneath every new metal roof and I am also a firm believer in good attic ventilation. - See more at: http://www.metalroofing.com/v2/foru...yId=44&forumTopicId=3829#sthash.QjBGyLMb.dpuf
There are battens available which are slotted or you can also put down vertical battens first, followed by horizontal. - See more at: http://www.metalroofing.com/v2/foru...yId=44&forumTopicId=3829#sthash.2cy0ne8l.dpuf

Ever heard of slotted battens or vertical layer plus horizontal layer? 

Roof Purlin Spacing should be 18 to 24 inches. If trusses or rafters are spaced up to 24 inches apart, 1x 4 rough cut is sufficient or if spacing is 24 inches to 48 inches apart, use 2x4 SPF or the equivalent. They should be replaced if purlins are not solid or split etc. on a re-roof job. 
Since shingle prices increased if makes economical sense to reroof over shingles with Metal Roofing - See more at: http://www.metalroofing.com/v2/foru...yId=44&forumTopicId=3829#sthash.JlAgBDB9.dpuf


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## skiff23 (Apr 30, 2014)

whchunter said:


> Been pricing installing a new metal over my existing fiberglass roof so this is great information. A couple of questions. I don't live in a hurricane area.
> 
> 1. In reading the comments some one said that 2x4s are now as cheap as 1x4s. Is this true?
> 
> ...




1) No they are not. But the cost difference is not that much.
2)No The treatment will cause the metal to rust.
3)Have not used bubble rap.
4)I don't use felt. I use Titanium Underlayment , felt is cheap and does not stay in place as long or do the job as the titanium does. ( Synthetic felt)
5)No 1x4 's split and you would not have 1" of solid wood penetration. You would have 3/4" .Osb is not strong enough to even consider in my opion.
6)Go ahead and use a 1 1/2 " screw. No reason not to and you will get a solid bond and not loose any screw due to taper.
7)Depends on stripping and such but we recommend 75 per square.
8)Not necessary  . Just keeps stuff straighter for the novice .
9)Would not hurt.Strand board would do fine also. I use 1"
10)Rake and gable trim which is the proper way to install a roof with the trim anyway.


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## skiff23 (Apr 30, 2014)

tree cutter 08 said:


> My current house roof has osb stripped with 2x4s with no problems. Going to be building a new house pretty soon and guy I talked to about building said he put down 5x8 plywood and put the metal directly on top, and didn't strip. Said he never has had any trouble. Bad idea or stick with the 2x4s?



Better stick with the 2x4's I have fixed a roof done like this. Leak in 6 years from new construction date.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 30, 2014)

whchunter said:


> Been pricing installing a new metal over my existing fiberglass roof so this is great information. A couple of questions. I don't live in a hurricane area.
> 
> 1. In reading the comments some one said that 2x4s are now as cheap as 1x4s. Is this true?
> 
> ...


1, Stripping with 1x or 2x's will raise your roof. This mandates that you use gable trim... which I think all should use anyway. But worse, the overhangs are now higher. Now when you need it most during a hard rain, your water shoots straight over your gutters. If you have gutters. Raising the roof does affect the look. You might like a bigger looking rake, facil. It may throw things out of porportion. 2, if I were going to strip it, I would use treated because condensation does exist in the cavity created. Yet you should ck with manufactuer. It becomes a "space". When installed straight down, no space, you have no temp space of it's own, but rather it all radiates heat evenly. The even heat loss/gain does not condensate like layers of different temp spaces. 3, not familiar with bubble wrap but some manufacters will not warranty over shingles without buying their underlayment. Sales or purpose??? I don't have an opinion. 4, I like to remove the shingles but I know contractors who will not. Biggest reason, they don't want to worry about an uncovered roof overnight. I let the homeowner decide. Price is higher with tear off. I use 15 lb felt. 30 is better but not needed. The underlayment is good because if you did have a small leak due to a washer failure, it is possible that your water would run under the metal and out. 5, 1x's have more than enough holding. Some people like the 2x4 because of the strength or "bridging" ability of fixing dips in old houses. But not needed for a better screw grab. But remember, your roof is only held down as good as your stripping. If I were to go this route, and I would not, I would screw down my stripping. I have seen guys up there with a nail gun randomly shooting nails through the stripping. It needs to hit rafters. 6, screw length is not terribly critical but to get best results, the first quarter of screw length is almost like a drill and has no hold value. So add your thickness of penatration and add at least a quarter of an inch. 7, The amount of screws has much to do with the location. I come up app 5 or 6 from the bottom and put one every bay. After that,  2 every two ft up. Location is critical. I could draw a pic better than explain.  8, I think it much eaiser to predrill. Not everyone does it or is it needed but it speeds me up and my screw pattern is perfect and it is cool to look at the screws from all angles and see it line up. Reason easier is a couple of things. If I am reaching to install a screw, I have not much downward pressure. But with the hole there, the screw grabs easy. Another reason. I am funny about it looking good, wanting it to all line up so it takes to much time to measure or eyeball a screw. Sometimes small cut pieces to hard to figure, I will not predrill such as valley or hip pieces. Straight runs are great. I stack all my pieces lining up the bottom edge. I measure and mark every hole. Then I predrill through the entire stack. Not the entire order but the stack required to do the side I am working on. The metal needs to be lifted up on runners to keep your bit out of the dirt. Also you will need to stand on the metal, supported by your runners underneath. Keep your weight next to the bit. If you don't keep the metal down, tight, your bit will start to angle and you will break your drill bit before you get through. This does not happen if you keep it tight together. A broken bit stuck in the metal pile is a pain. Another reason to keep it tight is so that metal shavings don't get in between your metal. As you pick up your pieces these shavings will scratch your finish. When laying over shingles, flat 3 tab only, your holes have to be drilled at the highest point of the shingle otherwise it will dimple. Many don't take the time to measure this. 9, surprised that you don't have any other covering. Not sure what is best here. 10, you could order something similiar to a metal shingle mould. Basically a 2 x2 inch L to go down before the metal. 10,Your metal supplier will sell a good all rubber boot. Don't use the shingle type. LOL, I have seen it done. Under the boot before installing the boot, creat a dam of caulk above you pipe just incase your boot ever fails, the water will run around the hole in the metal. Skylights, hood fans, these take special attention. Only for those who have ran metal and understand the complexity of the issue of having to go under yet over the ribs. 11,   buy galvaloom metal. It is painted galvaloom. Unlike painted metal that will rust with every cut edge or scratch, galvaloom will not. Keep your warranty papers just in case you might be the 1 in 2000 who happens to get a bad batch and your paint starts to come off. You are more likely to win the lottery than it coming off. These are my opinions about metal roofs. Based on experience. Not to say that any other way is not correct, this is just my reasoning for how I do it. And I am not in Georgia so I am not trying to get any business.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 30, 2014)

skiff23 said:


> Sure have. I had one competitor for awhile that flashed NOTHING. Only silicone. It was amazing what he got away with.  And of course no inspectors.


Guys like yourself, who take pride in their work win in the long run.


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## skiff23 (Apr 30, 2014)

1grbldr
Down here we are not allowed to put metal or aluminum in direct contact with pressure treated lumber. The treatment will react with the metal and corrosion will cause failure of the metal prematurely .


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 30, 2014)

I personally don't like what I call "barn style" stripping 2 x 4's for a new house. One, the plywood adds considerable strength to a house. Another reason is that the plywood directly under the metal protects from extreme hail. And mostly because you no longer have the noise of rain on a metal roof. The "drum" effect is gone. Another, I can or anyone else up on your roof can step anywhere on the roof without caution, no fear of bending your metal


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 30, 2014)

skiff23 said:


> 1grbldr
> Down here we are not allowed to put metal or aluminum in direct contact with pressure treated lumber. The treatment will react with the metal and corrosion will cause failure of the metal prematurely .


Same here with metal boxing. I have not done it but they say it will bubble up. I wonder if you can put treated against galvaloom. I have never found out because I don't prefer it this way. [stripping]


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 30, 2014)

skiff23 said:


> 1grbldr
> Down here we are not allowed to put metal or aluminum in direct contact with pressure treated lumber. The treatment will react with the metal and corrosion will cause failure of the metal prematurely .


Our code changed about 4 years ago about metal against treated. Now for decks, etc. We must use galvanized


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## whchunter (May 1, 2014)

*Slot*

Anyone ever heard of slotted 2x4s (battens)?  Sounds like it might be a good idea since it would allow additional continuous air flow to top but mostly a way for any moisture/water to get down and out from under metal roof.


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## HoCoLion91 (May 1, 2014)

What about the metal thickness. Got a quote using 29ga.  Is this standard?


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## 1gr8bldr (May 1, 2014)

HoCoLion91 said:


> What about the metal thickness. Got a quote using 29ga.  Is this standard?


Hey friend, did you take that pic in your avatar? If so, you probably, like myself are amazed at how loud the water can be in a place like that. LOL, I fell out of the boat catching bait once when the water was worse


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## HoCoLion91 (May 1, 2014)

Yes I did. It is at the old lock on savannah river in Augusta, ga.  Scenic place and open to public.


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