# Killing does today in Ga.



## Milkman (Jul 12, 2014)

This isnt a new subject by any means. And I'm not bashing anyone in their legal pursuit of fun in the woods. I support you in anything legal.

What I am suggesting is a non bashing discussion of whether you feel the whitetail population in your area can support removal of does.  

I hunt one location where it is very common to see 10-12 antler-less deer at the same time across a field. This place can probably support removal of a few does.

I hunt another location 40 miles from there that you wont see 10-12 deer in a season of sitting. This location does not need any doe removal IMO. We are doing the 1970s style of shooting buck only now on that property. 

I am aware that we are supposed to limit ourselves based on what our land(s) can support. Not to bash the DNR but IMO there is not a place in GA that can support anyone shooting 10 antler-less and 2 antlered deer.  

Your thoughts ??


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## BlackEagle (Jul 12, 2014)

We take on average 8-15 does a year off our place. And have been taking that many every year for the past 7 years. 

Bucks are numerous. Big and small. 

There are two of us that hunt about 300 acres.


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## tbrown913 (Jul 12, 2014)

the 100 acres that i have hunted for the last 4 years has had 40 does killed by me and my brother in law, and three bucks.  two were 8 points, one was a 3 point that was his first deer.  Last season I finally started to see an appropriate reduction in the deer population, and a huge increase in the number of bucks on the land.  The property is bordered by nearly 1500 acres that is not hunted, unless people trespass onto the county land.

I dont think the land can support a heavy continued removal of does, but, the population isnt hurting by any means!


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## FF-Emt Diver (Jul 12, 2014)

There may be a few areas in the state that have a good population, in my area that is not the case. 

IMO it's coming from a lot of different reasons, Limit is too high, agriculture is down, yotes are up....ETC.

I hunt a lot during the season from the start of bow until the end and I don't see but maybe 15-20 deer all season. I killed one doe last year (probly shouldn't have) and my wife killed 2 bucks. Our deer numbers are WAY down from what they were 10 years ago.


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## oops1 (Jul 12, 2014)

Do a camera survey for your lease and go from there. I agree.. It's all about location and deer density .


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## Lilly001 (Jul 12, 2014)

The problem is not the 10 doe limit. Very few harvest that. The vast majority of does are taken by those who only shoot one or two a year. The best way to limit that harvest is by reducing the number of days that does can be harvested. The timing of the ban is VERY important. If you time it to a period where few hunters are in the woods, then it's impact is lessened. If you time it for the busy times, say Oct. or Nov.(how about Thanksgiving week), then the impact is greater.
I think DNR has a handle on it. I just wish it was more localized in response to local populations.
And by the way I don't think cutting the limit to 5 does a year would impact very many people. Nor would it solve much.


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## T.P. (Jul 12, 2014)

tbrown913 said:


> the 100 acres that i have hunted for the last 4 years has had 40 does killed by me and my brother in law, and three bucks.  two were 8 points, one was a 3 point that was his first deer.  Last season I finally started to see an appropriate reduction in the deer population, and a huge increase in the number of bucks on the land.  The property is bordered by nearly 1500 acres that is not hunted, unless people trespass onto the county land.
> 
> I dont think the land can support a heavy continued removal of does, but, the population isnt hurting by any means!



I'm not understanding how you killed does and increased the buck population.


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## Arrow3 (Jul 12, 2014)

Our club in Oglethorpe has a good enough population to take a few although I think our population is down some. My oconee county property usually has more bucks then does so I haven't shot one over there in 5 years.


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## across the river (Jul 12, 2014)

This whole thing has nothing to really do with the limit itself, it has to do with hunter density.    There are more people in Georgia, and less huntable land.  The land that is available is expensive to lease, so you end up with clubs with a hunter per every 50 acres or so because people don't want to pay high club dues.   Not all of them are going to kill 12 deer, but if you have 15 or 20 people on 500 acre if you average a deer or two per person you have drastically affected the population.   If you have 5 people hunting 2000 acres, then killing does is needed.  The DNR can't set regulation to appease everyone.   The guy with 50 acres beside a "if its brown it is down club" probably wants a lower limit because he doesn't see the deer he used to, where the guy with 600 acres he hunts with one other guy doesn't.  If they really wanted to do it right they would assign tags by land area, but that will never happen.   Honestly I don't think the DNR has a problem with the lower deer numbers, so I would not expect a dramatic change.


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## spinefish (Jul 12, 2014)

T.P. said:


> I'm not understanding how you killed does and increased the buck population.



Prayers sent.


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## dawg2 (Jul 12, 2014)

Milkman said:


> This isnt a new subject by any means. And I'm not bashing anyone in their legal pursuit of fun in the woods. I support you in anything legal.
> 
> What I am suggesting is a non bashing discussion of whether you feel the whitetail population in your area can support removal of does.
> 
> ...



I will say this:  The new restrictions with "doe days" I believe are making people shoot more does / fawns.


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## T.P. (Jul 12, 2014)

spinefish said:


> Prayers sent.



Thanks, but still curious.


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## nickel back (Jul 12, 2014)

Milkman said:


> This isnt a new subject by any means. And I'm not bashing anyone in their legal pursuit of fun in the woods. I support you in anything legal.
> 
> What I am suggesting is a non bashing discussion of whether you feel the whitetail population in your area can support removal of does.
> 
> ...




my thought is the Doe pop is in bad shape, more than some know, if your a hunter and a good doe pop then count your blessing and do not over harvest.


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## Wrangler Hunter (Jul 12, 2014)

Just my 2 cents worth, According to the DNR, the average hunter only takes 2 or 3 deer a year.  With that being said, just in general the 10 doe limit really doesn't affect anything.  Now if I hunted in a club instead of public land, I would definitely agree with oops1 and take the survey and manage the land based on the needs of the land.


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## spinefish (Jul 12, 2014)

T.P. said:


> Thanks, but still curious.



Yeah. My only theory for that situation that might be plausible is the continued lowering of the deer population, mainly does, provided more natural browse/food which may entice bucks into the area. That would not increase the buck population in total, only for his piece of property. It would seem, naturally, that the total deer population for the general area would see a decrease using this method. 
Although, I have heard the theory that, in dense populations, does naturally revert to fewer multiple births (twins,triplets) as a natural population control. Don't know if this is true or not. If it WERE the case, lowering the population through does might increase the chance of more buck births. But then, you've also decreased the number of does giving birth because you shot more of them.


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## RUGERWARRIOR (Jul 12, 2014)

T.P. said:


> Thanks, but still curious.



The theory as I understand it, as far as rut activity, is that with less does you have more bucks after a single doe.
If you have tons of does on your property but have one patterned well to an area then you might one or two bucks chasing her. And they could both be little bucks.
If your doe pop is smaller and you have a does core area figured out then you have more competition amongst bucks of all sizes.


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## nickel back (Jul 12, 2014)

Wrangler Hunter said:


> Just my 2 cents worth, According to the DNR, the average hunter only takes 2 or 3 deer a year.  With that being said, just in general the 10 doe limit really doesn't affect anything.  Now if I hunted in a club instead of public land, I would definitely agree with oops1 and take the survey and manage the land based on the needs of the land.



I disagree with the DNR, I have not shot a doe(and know many others that have not) in over 3 years or more, how do they come up with this number?


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## nickel back (Jul 12, 2014)

RUGERWARRIOR said:


> The theory as I understand it, as far as rut activity, is that with less does you have more bucks after a single doe.
> If you have tons of does on your property but have one patterned well to an area then you might one or two bucks chasing her. And they could both be little bucks.
> If your doe pop is smaller and you have a does core area figured out then you have more competition amongst bucks of all sizes.



yep, theory and that's all it is, matter in fact if I was a buck I would go to the club with the most doe(that's my theory).


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## shdw633 (Jul 12, 2014)

dawg2 said:


> I will say this:  The new restrictions with "doe days" I believe are making people shoot more does / fawns.



I agree


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## kmckinnie (Jul 12, 2014)

Maybe we should start cutting out more gun days to hunt & start heading toward more bow only days. Start gun season Dec 1 to Jan 15th all that before bow only.


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## buckarcher (Jul 12, 2014)

Simply said "Less Does Less EVERYTHING"


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## Buford_Dawg (Jul 12, 2014)

*I can certainly see from my years of hunting the same land..*

that the does are less numerous than they were, 5, 10, 15, heck 20 years ago.  We have for the last 5 years now, maybe a few more, tried to be more selective in shooting does.  Trying to limit to a few each year.  I let my son's take a doe or two a season, but I havent taken a doe in so many years, I could not recall.  I think it all depends on where you hunt and if you are seeing a lot of does, certainly take a few.  If you are not seeing many, then you had better control yourself and not pull the trigger.


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## Milkman (Jul 12, 2014)

Again, I am not slamming anyone or any club or anyones interpretation of the DNR rules.

However, We have people in Georgia today hunting land with a scarce deer population that are being selective with shooting a buck due to wanting large pretty antlers.  These same people will take out 2-3 does each season as "meat deer"   

If someone hunts a location with a low deer population I suggest take out bucks of any size, even button bucks as your "meat deer"  killing a buck only takes 1 deer out of the herd. 
 Killing a doe of any size takes out unknown numbers of potential future deer to increase the population.


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## T.P. (Jul 12, 2014)

Milkman said:


> Again, I am not slamming anyone or any club or anyones interpretation of the DNR rules.
> 
> However, We have people in Georgia today hunting land with a scarce deer population that are being selective with shooting a buck due to wanting large pretty antlers.  These same people will take out 2-3 does each season as "meat deer"
> 
> ...



But...but....but.....










100% agree.


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## kmckinnie (Jul 12, 2014)

Mr Nic said the samething I believe a year or so ago. In a different way.


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## The Longhunter (Jul 12, 2014)

Milkman said:


> Again, I am not slamming anyone or any club or anyones interpretation of the DNR rules.
> 
> However, We have people in Georgia today hunting land with a scarce deer population that are being selective with shooting a buck due to wanting large pretty antlers.  These same people will take out 2-3 does each season as "meat deer"
> 
> ...



yeah, it's funny see the people get all twisted up about shooting a button buck or small spike, when that is probably the most expendable deer in your herd (using herd very loosely).   You would have a more sustainable herd AND bigger bucks shooting as many buttons as you can (instead of does).


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## bamaboy (Jul 12, 2014)

What do you think about seeing 51 does in a season on 136 acres? I killed one, should I have killed more?


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## Milkman (Jul 12, 2014)

bamaboy said:


> What do you think about seeing 51 does in a season on 136 acres? I killed one, should I have killed more?



Did you actually see 51 different does or have 51 sightings of antler-less deer? What was the largest group you could see at one time?   

Remember that statistics tell us about 1/3 of antler-less deer are really immature bucks.


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## Ramey Jackson (Jul 12, 2014)

Milkman said:


> Did you actually see 51 different does or have 51 sightings of antler-less deer? What was the largest group you could see at one time?
> 
> Remember that statistics tell us about 1/3 of antler-less deer are really immature bucks.




BINGO-
Folks, we have a winner!


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## southerndraw (Jul 12, 2014)

Statewide the limit is just to high...


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## NotaVegetarian (Jul 12, 2014)

Each property is different, take base on the current game laws,  but not more than what the property can maintain.  Keep a healthy balance.


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## BowanaLee (Jul 12, 2014)

Like I've said before. I don't have a deer shortage. Theres never enough big bucks but I see plenty of deer. I have 8 small woodlots. (Just got some new ones. Sometimes I loose count.) Their 5 to 50 acres spread out in DeKalb, Henry and Rockdale counties. All are near subdivisions with about the same population. I bet I could take 3 to 5 off each one and I wouldn't see a difference. Guys I'm sorry but I don't know whats going on with y'alls area ?


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## RUGERWARRIOR (Jul 12, 2014)

nickel back said:


> yep, theory and that's all it is, matter in fact if I was a buck I would go to the club with the most doe(that's my theory).



I agree to an extent. You have to lower your standards to up your average is the way it was explained to me. Same could be said for deer hunting if you think about it.


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## tbrown913 (Jul 13, 2014)

T.P. said:


> I'm not understanding how you killed does and increased the buck population.





my theory is that there is now more competition for the smaller number of does.  On the property the first two years I hunted and had a camera out some of the year, i had three pictures of bucks with 6 or more points, and only a few individual spikes and fork horns, but tons of does.  During bow season this year, I saw more bucks, from spikes to a nice 8 point.  I continued to see bucks all year, and got a lot of different bucks on camera.  I did kill an 8 point that i estimate at 140-150 POUNDS.  I dont remember exactly, but I think i saw around 20 bucks this year, with a lot of repeat customers around my stands.  I saw that many does or more too.

I will see what happens this year.  My camera has only =been out for 3 weeks.  I had one bachelor group of 3 bucks, all 6 pointers but may grow another.  I moved the camera to another salt lick last week, so I will see what i have on it this week.


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## SakoL61R (Jul 13, 2014)

NotaVegetarian said:


> Each property is different, take base on the current game laws,  but not more than what the property can maintain.  Keep a healthy balance.



This.  Every property is different.  Carrying capacities differ widely throughout the state and throughout individual counties.  Deer have core areas, but will readily travel for food, water, cover or to avoid hazards.

I maximize food and cover year-round on my small slice and minimize my intrusion time. Result is I see deer almost every time I hunt.  Very conservatively, I shoot or allow friends to shoot what I consider to be an appropriate number of deer based upon what I see throughout the year.  Many factors play into my decision and they change on a yearly basis.  Last year it was one doe for myself and one small buck for a friend's son (his first).  Could've taken more, but I want to increase the number of deer around my place as my kids are just now getting into hunting.

Of course, it will be all for nought if my neighbor and his friends go on another shoot-fest like back in 2010.....  but that's their right and they were within the law.

Manage yourself and the land you hunt (if you can) to maximize the quality of your deer hunting experiences.  If you shoot most everything you see and don't take care of the resource(s), don't complain about not seeing deer.


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## PopPop (Jul 13, 2014)

There are several factors contributing to the decline of deer sightings. Hunter density being the largest. This is impacted by reduced habitat and smaller tracts hunted by larger groups. Have you ever heard someone say, " I paid good $ to hunt here, I am going to kill something" or, "if I don't shoot it, someone else will"?
These attitudes and a misunderstanding of good management practices almost assure a dwindling herd.
The limit maybe 10 & 2, but You do not have to shoot.
I toured a QDM club with the club president and resident QDM expert. Over the course of about an hour of riding muddy logging roads, I had yet to see a track. I asked him if they were shooting Does, he said yes, I asked how many? He replied, " all of them".


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## elfiii (Jul 13, 2014)

Lilly001 said:


> The problem is not the 10 doe limit. Very few harvest that. The vast majority of does are taken by those who only shoot one or two a year. The best way to limit that harvest is by reducing the number of days that does can be harvested. The timing of the ban is VERY important. If you time it to a period where few hunters are in the woods, then it's impact is lessened. If you time it for the busy times, say Oct. or Nov.(how about Thanksgiving week), then the impact is greater.
> I think DNR has a handle on it. I just wish it was more localized in response to local populations.
> And by the way I don't think cutting the limit to 5 does a year would impact very many people. Nor would it solve much.



Winner, winner chicken dinner. ^^^

Once the new 10 Year Deer Management Plan is complete you might see some changes. It's not likely bag limits will change. What you will see is manipulation of either sex days by physiographic region and possibly at the county level.


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## The Longhunter (Jul 13, 2014)

My observation is that the overall limit per hunter has very little to do with the overall deer population.  I don't know anyone who comes close, or tries to shoot the limit.

DNR shows that the average _successful_ shoots about 1.3 deer, because their research shows that most hunters want to shoot one  deer and go home.  Which makes sense if you know a lot of hunters.

Personally I'd like to see the whole state go back to the Thanksgiving -Christmas break.


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## mguthrie (Jul 13, 2014)

bamaboy said:


> What do you think about seeing 51 does in a season on 136 acres? I killed one, should I have killed more?



Should have killed about 40 of them. To many deer on that small of a piece of land. Lol


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## NOYDB (Jul 13, 2014)

It's my opinion the does need to be taller. Makes it harder for them to hide. Just my opinion, not based on any studies reported or education. Of course I can can express any thought I choose Don't need knowledge or expertise, and ignore entire libraries and years of history. What's the point of actually basing my opinions on science? Someone is just going to tell all about"Their" anecdotal based opinion anyways. Don't hate the does.


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## bamaboy (Jul 13, 2014)

Milkman said:


> Did you actually see 51 different does or have 51 sightings of antler-less deer? What was the largest group you could see at one time?
> 
> Remember that statistics tell us about 1/3 of antler-less deer are really immature bucks.



48 does and 3 anterless, biggest group was 9 at one time, saw 21 on opening day of bow season, started at 7:30 am until 12 pm


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## Discotdi (Jul 13, 2014)

I have a family friend with a 1500 acre " farm". It's used just for hunting. Deer, turkey, dove.
They have a full time wildlife biologist that recommended removing 40 does last seaon. So they did.
 Don't know how that promotes a healthier deer population but apparently it will. I only wish I had been invited to shoot a couple!


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## shakey gizzard (Jul 13, 2014)

Oh, the good ol days! Back when you could see a "herd" of 30 or more deer standing together in a pature!


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## glynr329 (Jul 13, 2014)

Some people thinks they have hundreds of deer per sq. mile. I am sorry but you do not. They are the same deer over and over. 640 acres with 14 people hunting if you kill an average of 1 deer per person sorry but that is half or better of your population. Now if you are 1 of the lucky people that no one hunts around you then great. You are very lucky but if you have clubs around you how many are they killing. I have a piece of property and saw it go from one of the best places in Ga to it is not worth the drive.


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## Lilly001 (Jul 13, 2014)

As I understand the harvest situation the average hunter in Ga take two deer or less. The problem is that one or both are does.
This makes up a whole passel more than the few that harvest the ten doe limit. If you limit the doe days you force the "average" hunter to shoot bucks on those days.
If you limit the doe days to later in the year, or exclude weekends and holidays, you limit these "average" hunters from harvesting does. 
Yes some of these will just take does on other doe days, but many will not. Some because they harvested a buck and are satisfied and others because they historically only hunt on those days now closed.
I say the DNR should limit doe days in smaller geographic areas to better manage the heard.


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## Lilly001 (Jul 13, 2014)

Sorry. I posted the above before I read elfiii's.


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## Milkman (Jul 13, 2014)

bamaboy said:


> 48 does and 3 anterless, biggest group was 9 at one time, saw 21 on opening day of bow season, started at 7:30 am until 12 pm



So if you have only seen 9 at one time isnt it possible that there were only 10-15 total antlerless deer on that property?


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## Wrangler Hunter (Jul 13, 2014)

nickel back said:


> I disagree with the DNR, I have not shot a doe(and know many others that have not) in over 3 years or more, how do they come up with this number?



Probably from all the check-ins at the WMA's, who knows.  Do you hunt public land or private land.


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## bamaboy (Jul 13, 2014)

Milkman said:


> So if you have only seen 9 at one time isnt it possible that there were only 10-15 total antlerless deer on that property?



Are you saying I just kept seeing the same deer? I guess that is possible.


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## Milkman (Jul 13, 2014)

bamaboy said:


> Are you saying I just kept seeing the same deer? I guess that is possible.



I think that is almost a certainty.  Is there some reason for you to think the deer you see in that location leave and never return?


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## Curtis-UGA (Jul 13, 2014)

bamaboy said:


> Are you saying I just kept seeing the same deer? I guess that is possible.



I see the same does all over and over all through the season. Hang out in the same areas, can usually tell by their behavior and how many fawns they have.

I usually see over 150 antler less deer a season but I know a lot are repetitive. Some aren't because they are several different properties. Didn't kill a doe last year but will kill a couple this year on the properties I fill can support it or one of my suburban bow spots.


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## The Longhunter (Jul 13, 2014)

bamaboy said:


> Are you saying I just kept seeing the same deer? I guess that is possible.





Milkman said:


> I think that is almost a certainty.  Is there some reason for you to think the deer you see in that location leave and never return?



Actually it's possible they were mostly separate deers.

One of the great myths, evidenced by the postings on this forum, is that a small piece of property has a resident deer "herd" similar to a bunch of Holsteins in the fenced in back 20.  What all the research has shown is that does are mobile over a range of about 1 sq. mile (640 acres), and that bucks have a range of 3-10 sq. miles.

Bottom line is that without sufficient land (600 - 750 acres minimum), the deer you see today may never be on your land again.  To accurately depict what is going on, take a map of your place and for every deer you see, draw a 1 mile diameter circle with your property on the EDGE of the circle.  That is a more accurate representation of deer, a series of circles with different centers that overlap on your land.

The idea that a smaller piece of land (less than about 600 acres)_ holds_ an extraordinarily high population of deer is contrary to all of the research about deer behavior.


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## NOYDB (Jul 13, 2014)

The Longhunter said:


> Actually it's possible they were mostly separate deers.
> 
> One of the great myths, evidenced by the postings on this forum, is that a small piece of property has a resident deer "herd" similar to a bunch of Holsteins in the fenced in back 20.  What all the research has shown is that does are mobile over a range of about 1 sq. mile (640 acres), and that bucks have a range of 3-10 sq. miles.
> 
> ...



Durn it, don't quote facts. Years and years of radio tracking and biologists dedicating entire careers to gathering information is not a basis for a forum post.


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## Milkman (Jul 14, 2014)

The Longhunter said:


> Actually it's possible they were mostly separate deers.
> 
> One of the great myths, evidenced by the postings on this forum, is that a small piece of property has a resident deer "herd" similar to a bunch of Holsteins in the fenced in back 20.  What all the research has shown is that does are mobile over a range of about 1 sq. mile (640 acres), and that bucks have a range of 3-10 sq. miles.
> 
> ...



Examples ......If a person sees an oddball looking 7 point buck time after time  does he count this buck as a different deer every time he sees it?  Probably not. 

If your camera is set up on a salt hole and you get 402 pictures of a young doe deer over a 1 week period. Is that the same salt loving deer over and over or is it hundreds of different deer?

I agree with the scientific evidence, and I don't say the deer "stay" on any small tract. But, I can state with certainty (as does CurtisUGA above) that I see the same deer and groups of deer over and over again.  One place I hunt has a large hayfield I watch.  I hunt primarily there in the afternoon. I know within a few minutes which groups of deer will arrive on the field almost daily.  Same size deer, same location, etc.  If I were to count these deer as different deer accumulating the entire season I would be saying there are several hundred deer on that property.


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## shakey gizzard (Jul 14, 2014)

Maybe the phone surveys, aren't the way to go to determine the "herd "numbers!


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## JB0704 (Jul 14, 2014)

Milkman said:


> Not to bash the DNR but IMO there is not a place in GA that can support anyone shooting 10 antler-less and 2 antlered deer.
> 
> Your thoughts ??



There are a few places which can support that high # of doe killin' (Jeff Foxworthy's place gets mentioned a lot on here, there are several plantations in the state, and suburban areas where there are too many deer).  My issue with the limit has always been that there are only a few areas which can support it.  So the benefit is for a few, and the risk is shared by all.  Nobody wants to end up hunting next to the *2%* who kill their limit.  Anybody who has ever hunted next to them, or with them, understands why (I have).

But, all evidence suggests that reduced ES days are the best way to limit doe kill, not the bag limit.  For those reasons, I would also support a doe-a-day type bag limit if it came with a 10 day doe season.


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## Milkman (Jul 14, 2014)

This is one of the better discussions I have been read about deer hunting.   This far and nobody has really bashed anyone yet !!

Good ideas being shared here


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## elfiii (Jul 14, 2014)

Avg. whitetail population in many Georgia counties = 35 deer/forested square mile. 640 acres = 1 square mile. Assume population distribution is one buck to one doe. Therefore there are 17-18 does on your 640 acre lease. Yes, more than likely you are seeing many of the same does over and over with some overlap from adjoining properties.


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## Buckbuster69 (Jul 14, 2014)

kmckinnie said:


> Maybe we should start cutting out more gun days to hunt & start heading toward more bow only days. Start gun season Dec 1 to Jan 15th all that before bow only.



I think December 1st for Gun Season is a little late in the year especially with the RUT around Halloween to November 20th.  I would say Bow up to October 15-20 then Gun Season so you can have a chance at shooting a rutting buck 200yds away. My Mathews won't shoot 200yds!!!!!


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## Throwback (Jul 14, 2014)

nickel back said:


> I disagree with the DNR, I have not shot a doe(and know many others that have not) in over 3 years or more, how do they come up with this number?





its an AVERAGE. 

this year if:

I kill 1
you kill 0
my son kills 2
elfiii kills 10 

the average number of does killed  between us is 3.25 each




T


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## nickel back (Jul 15, 2014)

Throwback said:


> its an AVERAGE.
> 
> this year if:
> 
> ...



well that average number is adding to the issue at hand with the Doe population in ares that are hurting. That average number should not speak for the whole state.


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## HardHuntin'GA (Jul 15, 2014)

Each property and each deer herd has it's on unique limiting factors! The only way to truly increase your deer herd or the health of the deer herd is determine the carrying capacity of your property and implement proper management strategies that will reduce the limiting factors. Managing your property the way Joe Blow across the county manages his is not the answer. Each property and each deer herd is different.


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## spurrs and racks (Jul 15, 2014)

*news flash*

Your not seeing ALL the deer on your property.

I am in a club in Monroe County, I have members that cannot see deer, so, they don't want any other club members to shoot any.

In the first two to three weeks of the season I can see 3-4 up to 10-12 everytime I sit in a tree.

Hunters need to spend less time trying to be the game warden and more time trying to figure out what they are doing wrong.

Let me tell you one thing I have learned. If you get busted in a stand.......move it.

s&r


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## Throwback (Jul 15, 2014)

nickel back said:


> well that average number is adding to the issue at hand with the Doe population in ares that are hurting. That average number should not speak for the whole state.



I pulls the numbers out of thin air 


T


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## nickel back (Jul 15, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> Your not seeing ALL the deer on your property.
> 
> I am in a club in Monroe County, I have members that cannot see deer, so, they don't want any other club members to shoot any.
> 
> ...



 we was doing so good


----------



## Gadget (Jul 15, 2014)

Back about 15 years ago we had a biologist tell us to remove 100+ does a year, we did..... for about 3 years in a row. The next 5 years our harvest steadily dropped in both bucks and does. Even though we were still trying to kill 100+ does on 5,000 acres we eventually got down to less than 20 with about 100 members gunning for em all season. We demolished the herd plain and simple.

I took over the club the next year after about half the members dropped out and the president quit. First thing I did was drop half the memberships. Over the next few years I dropped even more memberships to get around 125acre/member. Went to a 2 buck 3 doe limit. 16 inch spread or 19 inch main beam on bucks. It took about 3yrs but our herd started rebounding noticeably, now 7yrs later our herd is excellent, better than it's been in 20yrs with about a 2 doe to 1 buck ratio with high quality bucks and plenty of does. We killed 2 of the biggest bucks killed in over 20yrs in the last couple years; 163 typical 10pt and 162 12pt.


----------



## Seth carter (Jul 15, 2014)

I kill 3 or four deer a year shutup with the crap its legal we can do it go away


----------



## Seth carter (Jul 15, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> Your not seeing ALL the deer on your property.
> 
> I am in a club in Monroe County, I have members that cannot see deer, so, they don't want any other club members to shoot any.
> 
> ...



Yep worry about what you do not anybody else good advice here if you don't see deer most likely its your fault


----------



## Milkman (Jul 15, 2014)

Seth carter said:


> I kill 3 or four deer a year shutup with the crap its legal we can do it go away



Well now
Tell us how you really feel


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 15, 2014)

Seth carter said:


> Yep worry about what you do not anybody else good advice here if you don't see deer most likely its your fault



You have difficulty comprehending outside your own circumstances.  It's interesting that the state is trending towards limiting the doe kill also after all these years of season long doe days and a 10 deer limit.   I wonder what data they are using?


----------



## mtr3333 (Jul 15, 2014)

Milkman said:


> Examples ......If a person sees an oddball looking 7 point buck time after time  does he count this buck as a different deer every time he sees it?  Probably not.
> 
> If your camera is set up on a salt hole and you get 402 pictures of a young doe deer over a 1 week period. Is that the same salt loving deer over and over or is it hundreds of different deer?
> 
> I agree with the scientific evidence, and I don't say the deer "stay" on any small tract. But, I can state with certainty (as does CurtisUGA above) that I see the same deer and groups of deer over and over again.  One place I hunt has a large hayfield I watch.  I hunt primarily there in the afternoon. I know within a few minutes which groups of deer will arrive on the field almost daily.  Same size deer, same location, etc.  If I were to count these deer as different deer accumulating the entire season I would be saying there are several hundred deer on that property.



I have been fortunate to hunt areas where I saw distinct deer over and again. One of those areas was what could be considered a safe zone escape from heavily pressured land over the line.

 You're right that the DNR limit is unrealistic. There are few, yes there are some, places in Ga where your limit can be taken. But, that is not on a repeat basis even in isolated instances.

 More importantly, we were given the data on how many deer were killed per hunter per year. Very few hunters kill much if anything and the percentage of hunters killing their limit is negligible. Do you remember that thread?

 The trick is to know your own land and harvest accordingly. But, do your homework. There was one club I hunted where I saw the same 10 deer repeatedly.That was probably more of those pressured deer from the rest of our property. Since no one else was seeing much, my thinking was my spot was their option to the pressure from the rest of the club.

When it boils down to it, the energy and expense it requires to kill a limit of deer, process them, preserve and store them is more than the needs of one hunter including his average sized family. My little deer have been plenty so far. Aside from being short on sausage, my deer meat will last until bow season. My point being there must be some other motivation than personal need for killing anywhere near the limit. That desire would have to come from some insatiable performance standard to support low self esteem. Example, Joe says,"I got my 12 pt 160 back last week!" Slippy says, "I bought another freezer for my 12 deer I got last year and 160 packs of sausage!"

I also know guys who kill deer just to give the meat away. They just like killing deer. I was raised different. You kill it. You clean it. You eat it.


----------



## nickel back (Jul 15, 2014)

Seth carter said:


> Yep worry about what you do not anybody else good advice here if you don't see deer most likely its your fault



did anyone say they don't see deer, we are saying there is an issue with the Doe population and over harvesting an many areas of Ga.


----------



## spurrs and racks (Jul 15, 2014)

*why argue*

you people know more than the DNR.

s&r


----------



## Buford_Dawg (Jul 15, 2014)

*I think we all know....*

That everyone has different situations and as you can see, alot of differing thoughts and opinions.  Some of us hunters are in a area with a good deer population and others are in areas were overharvest is very apparent.  Each situation is different and must be managed accordingly.  What does bother me about threads like this is that you see posts where persons actually have no sense of conservation for the deer herd.  Kill them all mentality  Several posts on this thread are really disconcerning   I have hunted this great state for 35 + years and have seen it go from very bad (very few deer) to very good (in the 80s thru late 90s), then a continued degression to bad again (early 2000 to present day) in my hunting areas in NE GA.  I am glad DNR is doing something to limit the harvest and hopefully get our deer herd is better shape.  For those of you with a great deer population, take into account what others are seeing around the state and think about some conservation if you do start to see a decline of does.


----------



## Atlanta Dawg (Jul 15, 2014)

50/50 Buck to Doe Ratio---It Works !!!!


----------



## Wrangler Hunter (Jul 15, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> You have difficulty comprehending outside your own circumstances.  It's interesting that the state is trending towards limiting the doe kill also after all these years of season long doe days and a 10 deer limit.   I wonder what data they are using?



I am not sure they are trending towards lowering the limit.  This coming year it is still 10 doe and 2 bucks.  The regs for 2013 - 2014 explained why they are not limiting the number of does, but instead limiting the days to kill does.  

To all the people saying the limit is too high, how many people do you know that kills 10 doe a year?


----------



## spurrs and racks (Jul 15, 2014)

*current deer population*

White-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) once were nearly eliminated in the state of Georgia, but through diligent wildlife management efforts deer were successfully restored throughout the state. In fact, the current deer population exceeds 1.2 million. Deer are a valuable natural, recreational, and economic resource in Georgia, bringing in more than $800 million per year in hunting license fees, sporting equipment sales, food and land leases. However, deer densities in some localized areas have the potential to inflict significant damage to forestry, agricultural or horticultural crops, home gardens, and shrubbery. But because deer are important both biologically and economically, management of their numbers requires consideration on numerous levels.


----------



## Milkman (Jul 15, 2014)

Wrangler Hunter said:


> I am not sure they are trending towards lowering the limit.  This coming year it is still 10 doe and 2 bucks.  The regs for 2013 - 2014 explained why they are not limiting the number of does, but instead limiting the days to kill does.
> 
> To all the people saying the limit is too high, how many people do you know that kills 10 doe a year?



The biggest advantage of the "buck only" days is it requires anyone who is going to follow the rules to shoot an antlered deer instead of an antler-less.  This helps the deer population by allowing a doe to live and bear young.


----------



## Milkman (Jul 15, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> you people know more than the DNR.
> 
> s&r



I absolutely know more than the DNR will ever know about the deer population in the 3 main tracts that I hunt. 

I am there and I am my "barometer" of what the population and hunting pressure is at these locations. Like I said in a post above.  I hunt one tract that can support doe removal, I hunt another tract that you are hard pressed to even see a doe on. We  hunters have to identify and react to these facts.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 15, 2014)

Wrangler Hunter said:


> I am not sure they are trending towards lowering the limit.



I said they are trending towards limiting the doe kill, not lowering the limit.  From what I understand, reduced ES days is the best approach.



Wrangler Hunter said:


> This coming year it is still 10 doe and 2 bucks.  The regs for 2013 - 2014 explained why they are not limiting the number of does, but instead limiting the days to kill does.



Yes.



Wrangler Hunter said:


> To all the people saying the limit is too high, how many people do you know that kills 10 doe a year?



Last year, none.  But, I knew 2 who tried very hard.....problem for them was they had been successful in their efforts previously.


----------



## Buford_Dawg (Jul 15, 2014)

*I used to know quite a few who took 10 per year for about 8-10 years*



Wrangler Hunter said:


> I am not sure they are trending towards lowering the limit.  This coming year it is still 10 doe and 2 bucks.  The regs for 2013 - 2014 explained why they are not limiting the number of does, but instead limiting the days to kill does.
> 
> To all the people saying the limit is too high, how many people do you know that kills 10 doe a year?



But not anymore.  Nowadays, I don't know anyone because it is tough in many areas of the state to see 10 does to harvest   They overshot their herd to the point they don't see 10 does all  season.  Unfortuanately, I was a member in those clubs, so it affected myself and my son's and all other members.  Those clubs dissipated as there was very little game left after a few seasons.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 15, 2014)

Milkman said:


> I am there and I am my "barometer" of what the population and hunting pressure is at these locations. Like I said in a post above.  I hunt one tract that can support doe removal, I hunt another tract that you are hard pressed to even see a doe on. We  hunters have to identify and react to these facts.



I have a similar situation. I hunt multiple areas with various circumstances.  On one place, I see deer almost every time in the woods.  On another, it's a struggle.  I limit the doe kill on all right now because I don't want to see happen what I've witnessed elsewhere.  I can only control what happens (and not completely) on the leases I have, so that's what I'm doing.  Once the deer crosses the line, it's outta my hands.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 15, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> White-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) once were nearly eliminated in the state of Georgia, but through diligent wildlife management efforts deer were successfully restored throughout the state. In fact, the current deer population exceeds 1.2 million. Deer are a valuable natural, recreational, and economic resource in Georgia, bringing in more than $800 million per year in hunting license fees, sporting equipment sales, food and land leases. However, deer densities in some localized areas have the potential to inflict significant damage to forestry, agricultural or horticultural crops, home gardens, and shrubbery. But because deer are important both biologically and economically, management of their numbers requires consideration on numerous levels.



I think those are 2004 figures.  If I recall, one of the biologists who hang out on here said the # was around 940K recently.  Not sure where the estimate is now.  There was a 10 year plan put in place that year, and there will be a new one this year which, if what I've heard and read is correct, will reflect the limit remaining where it is, and reduced ES days.


----------



## mtr3333 (Jul 15, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> I think those are 2004 figures.  If I recall, one of the biologists who hang out on here said the # was around 940K recently.  Not sure where the estimate is now.  There was a 10 year plan put in place that year, and there will be a new one this year which, if what I've heard and read is correct, will reflect the limit remaining where it is, and reduced ES days.



Every year we need a new 10 year plan, because 10 out of 10 people have a different plan.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 15, 2014)

mtr3333 said:


> Every year we need a new 10 year plan, because 10 out of 10 people have a different plan.





Shoot man, I have a new plan this year from last year, and last year was my best season in a long time.  Circumstances change, and, sometimes "proximity to home" outweighs "deer density" when deciding where to hunt.


----------



## mtr3333 (Jul 15, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Shoot man, I have a new plan this year from last year, and last year was my best season in a long time.  Circumstances change, and, sometimes "proximity to home" outweighs "deer density" when deciding where to hunt.



Why last year, my plan changed after having the flu and feeling weak, I knew anything over 30 lbs would be a struggle to get in the boat. Through my scope she looked at least 60. I know of at least 6 people who have enjoyed that little deer.


----------



## elfiii (Jul 15, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> I think those are 2004 figures.  If I recall, one of the biologists who hang out on here said the # was around 940K recently.  Not sure where the estimate is now.  There was a 10 year plan put in place that year, and there will be a new one this year which, if what I've heard and read is correct, will reflect the limit remaining where it is, and reduced ES days.



CKillmaster recently said no change for his year. The new 10 Year Deer Management Plan doesn't take effect until next year.

Most everything you need to know is here:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=791677


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 15, 2014)

elfiii said:


> CKillmaster recently said no change for his year. The new 10 Year Deer Management Plan doesn't take effect until next year.
> 
> Most everything you need to know is here:
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=791677



Gotcha.  I remember that thread.  I thought the new plan was this year.  Thanks!


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 15, 2014)

mtr3333 said:


> Why last year, my plan changed after having the flu and feeling weak, I knew anything over 30 lbs would be a struggle to get in the boat. Through my scope she looked at least 60. I know of at least 6 people who have enjoyed that little deer.



I'm just glad I'm gonna learn what it's like to sleep until 5 a.m. and still be able to hunt that morning.  Looking forward to that whether I see any deer or not!


----------



## Nicodemus (Jul 15, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> I'm just glad I'm gonna learn what it's like to sleep until 5 a.m. and still be able to hunt that morning.  Looking forward to that whether I see any deer or not!





It`s nice. All 3 of my favorite places I hunt, I can get up from my recliner, and be huntin` in less than 5 minutes.


----------



## mtr3333 (Jul 15, 2014)

Nicodemus said:


> It`s nice. All 3 of my favorite places I hunt, I can get up from my recliner, and be huntin` in less than 5 minutes.



Yep, my bow is right by my coffee pot.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 15, 2014)

Nicodemus said:


> It`s nice. All 3 of my favorite places I hunt, I can get up from my recliner, and be huntin` in less than 5 minutes.



I bet.  That sounds great.  I didn't find anything that close to me.....but, I will be out of bed and in a stand within an hour.  It has always been 3+ in yrs past.


----------



## Nicodemus (Jul 15, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> I bet.  That sounds great.  I didn't find anything that close to me.....but, I will be out of bed and in a stand within an hour.  It has always been 3+ in yrs past.





One is my ancestral homeplace in Wheeler County, I`ll take a couple of does there and any buck I choose. Another is our cabin down in Seminole County, I`ll generally only take a buck there. And the third is my home here in Lee County, here I`ll take whatever does I need, and a buck only if it is an old one. This part of Lee County is covered up in deer. Love this plantation country.The first two places are big swamps and woods, no farmland.


----------



## grouper throat (Jul 15, 2014)

Old school buck only is the only real way to sustain a decent population. My buddy saw 37 and 6 bucks the other day riding a few hours before dark. Our deer population is finally coming back after the doe tag fiasco. The problem is over harvesting your does in trying to chase bigger antlers. I think this is an great discussion.


----------



## NOYDB (Jul 15, 2014)

Yeah, but what's the best caliber for a limit?


----------



## Nicodemus (Jul 15, 2014)

NOYDB said:


> Yeah, but what's the best caliber for a limit?





This one. I replace the electrical tape every fall right before deer season comes in. Never fails.


----------



## shakey gizzard (Jul 15, 2014)

Nicodemus said:


> This one. I replace the electrical tape every fall right before deer season comes in. Never fails.



Now that's maximum utilization!


----------



## Nicodemus (Jul 15, 2014)

shakey gizzard said:


> Now that's maximum utilization!





Ol Gabriel stayed mad at me for 6 weeks after I dressed him up with that scope.


----------



## Jeff Phillips (Jul 15, 2014)

Atlanta Dawg said:


> 50/50 Buck to Doe Ratio---It Works !!!!



Then we need a few years of no doe killing!

It is biologically impossible for the State of Georgia to have more does than bucks after all the years of does making up 60+% of the harvest. 

Some folks need to understand herd management, not trophy management, herd management.


----------



## elfiii (Jul 15, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Then we need a few years of no doe killing!
> 
> It is biologically impossible for the State of Georgia to have more does than bucks after all the years of does making up 60+% of the harvest.
> 
> Some folks need to understand herd management, not trophy management, herd management.



You mean QD.....

Nevermind.


----------



## mtr3333 (Jul 15, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Then we need a few years of no doe killing!
> 
> It is biologically impossible for the State of Georgia to have more does than bucks after all the years of does making up *60+% of the harvest*.
> 
> Some folks need to understand herd management, not trophy management, herd management.



Jeff could you post that data?


----------



## elfiii (Jul 15, 2014)

mtr3333 said:


> Jeff could you post that data?



From 1962 down to 2013:

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=8484484&postcount=56


----------



## Jeff Phillips (Jul 15, 2014)

elfiii said:


> From 1962 down to 2013:
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=8484484&postcount=56



Thanks for posting this elfiii.

The posters who really need this information probably won't read it, but there it is...

What we have been doing from a harvest perspective is simply not sustainable.


----------



## Wrangler Hunter (Jul 15, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> I said they are trending towards limiting the doe kill, not lowering the limit.  From what I understand, reduced ES days is the best approach.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I stand corrected


----------



## shakey gizzard (Jul 15, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Thanks for posting this elfiii.
> 
> The posters who really need this information probably won't read it, but there it is...
> 
> *What we have been doing from a harvest perspective is simply not sustainable*.



Cant get any more simple!


----------



## mtr3333 (Jul 15, 2014)

elfiii said:


> From 1962 down to 2013:
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=8484484&postcount=56



Thanks for posting again. How many bucks are counted as does? The harvest record doesn't distinguish between antlerless bucks and antlerless does. How much would this affect the distribution numbers? Is this harvest record part or the whole source of data collection?


----------



## nickel back (Jul 16, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Then we need a few years of no doe killing!
> 
> It is biologically impossible for the State of Georgia to have more does than bucks after all the years of does making up 60+% of the harvest.
> 
> Some folks need to understand herd management, not trophy management, herd management.




yep, been saying it for a few years now

with out the DOE we have no herd


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jul 16, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Then we need a few years of no doe killing!
> 
> It is biologically impossible for the State of Georgia to have more does than bucks after all the years of does making up 60+% of the harvest.
> 
> Some folks need to understand herd management, not trophy management, herd management.





Jeff Phillips said:


> Thanks for posting this elfiii.
> 
> The posters who really need this information probably won't read it, but there it is...
> 
> What we have been doing from a harvest perspective is simply not sustainable.



Kind of simple, ain't it, but so hard for folks to understand. People keep doing it to themselves and blaming it on everything except themselves. In mathematical terms, it would be:

Bucks = all sacred; Does = meat; Deer=gone.


----------



## spurrs and racks (Jul 16, 2014)

*simple math*

1 year of “No Doe killing” equals a double in deer population from 1.2 million to 2.4 million.
Which equals massive overpopulation and immediate introduction to disease into our deer herd.

Not to mention you will not be able to pay your car insurance .


----------



## Throwback (Jul 16, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> 1 year of “No Doe killing” equals a double in deer population from 1.2 million to 2.4 million.
> Which equals massive overpopulation and immediate introduction to disease into our deer herd.
> 
> Not to mention you will not be able to pay your car insurance .



Plus a huge uproar from the 95+ percent of Georgians that don't hunt

T


----------



## Throwback (Jul 16, 2014)

When 50% of the bucks are off limits due to mandatory antler restrictions..................


When you kill a buck you kill a deer.   When you kill a doe you kill next years deer too




Just saying

T


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jul 16, 2014)

Throwback said:


> When 50% of the bucks are off limits due to mandatory antler restrictions..................
> 
> 
> When you kill a buck you kill a deer.   When you kill a doe you kill next years deer too
> ...



Why do you hate the little chirrens and not want them to have freaknasty bucks to shoot?


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 16, 2014)

Throwback said:


> When 50% of the bucks are off limits due to mandatory antler restrictions..................
> 
> 
> When you kill a buck you kill a deer.   When you kill a doe you kill next years deer too
> ...



I would love to start hearing folks say "if you need meat, shoot a button head," at least in those areas where the does have been hammered.  I know if the opportunity presents itself, my freezer may hold a button head by seasons' end, and I'll be glad for it.......and I won't say "I thought it was a doe."


----------



## kmckinnie (Jul 16, 2014)

Spotted buttons are the best & you get 10 of them.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 16, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> 1 year of “No Doe killing” equals a double in deer population from 1.2 million to 2.4 million.
> Which equals massive overpopulation and immediate introduction to disease into our deer herd.
> 
> Not to mention you will not be able to pay your car insurance .



Fawns die for a lot of reasons.  The population would increase by the # of fawns which survived less the number of bucks which are killed by hunters and various other things plus the # of does which die for various other reasons (cars, old age, disease, coyotes, etc).  Right now, for various reasons, the fawn recruitment rate is around (this is from memory, but I'm sure I will be corrected) .55, and dropping.  The population wouldn't double, it would definitely increase.  I don't think a statewide "no doe killin" zone is a good idea, in fact, it's a terrible idea.  But, there are several areas where leaving the does alone a while is probably a good idea.


----------



## SwampMoss (Jul 16, 2014)

Reduce the number of Doe days and the number that can be harvested.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jul 16, 2014)

SC has plenty of deer, and they limit doe harvest fairly strictly, but allow you to kill lots of bucks. It works. And they still have big bucks.


----------



## Da Possum (Jul 16, 2014)

kmckinnie said:


> Spotted buttons are the best & you get 10 of them.



preaching to the choir; brother


----------



## tbrown913 (Jul 16, 2014)

just pulled my trail cam in a new spot.  had a group of 4 mature does come in every day, twice a day.  had a doe and her fawn come in every day, and every night.  also had a lone doe come in only at night.  camera has only been in that spot for 4 days.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 16, 2014)

NCHillbilly said:


> SC has plenty of deer, and they limit doe harvest fairly strictly, but allow you to kill lots of bucks. It works. And they still have big bucks.




I went and read SC's regs, and one thing I liked was that they have a deal where you can get a "quota" for a specific piece of land.  That would address any issue we have here where particular landowners need to kill more does than an average hunter.

For instance, I read that one plantation in Ga needs 100 does killed per year.  The limit is currently 10 so that the landowner can kill them himself and with 9 other buddies.  With a specific quota, he wouldn't ahve to share with anybody, and could kill all 100 himself.

Seems like a great idea, actually, and it addresses the "freedom" issue which is always kicked around when this topic comes up.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 16, 2014)

tbrown913 said:


> just pulled my trail cam in a new spot.  had a group of 4 mature does come in every day, twice a day.  had a doe and her fawn come in every day, and every night.  also had a lone doe come in only at night.  camera has only been in that spot for 4 days.



Was that only one fawn and 6 mature does?  Or did the initial group of 4 have fawns with them?

I've hunted a place where an old lone doe only came in front of the camera at night.  She never ahd any fawns with her.  Smart old deer.  We never saw her from a stand.


----------



## Jeff Phillips (Jul 16, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> 1 year of “No Doe killing” equals a double in deer population from 1.2 million to 2.4 million.
> Which equals massive overpopulation and immediate introduction to disease into our deer herd.
> 
> Not to mention you will not be able to pay your car insurance .



You didn't look at the data...

Check the recruitment information.


----------



## shakey gizzard (Jul 16, 2014)

tbrown913 said:


> just pulled my trail cam in a new spot.  had a group of 4 mature does come in every day, twice a day.  had a doe and her fawn come in every day, and every night.  also had a lone doe come in only at night.  camera has only been in that spot for 4 days.



You should pm those #'s to spurs and racks!


----------



## Jeff Phillips (Jul 16, 2014)

Simple math based on the data...

Pre season herd of 990,000

40% are does capable of producing fawns = 396,000 does

40% recruitment rate = 158,000 new deer

50% are does = 79,000 new does

We can not continue to argue for regulations based on information that has not been accurate since the '80's! 

Ignorance is no excuse!


----------



## nickel back (Jul 16, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> You didn't look at the data...
> 
> Check the recruitment information.



yea his simple math is  off


----------



## spurrs and racks (Jul 16, 2014)

*simple math*

Simple math based on the data...

Preseason herd of 990,000

40% are does capable of producing fawns = 396,000 does

40% recruitment rate = 158,000 new deer

50% are does = 79,000 new does

We cannot continue to argue for regulations based on information that has not been accurate since the '80's! 

Ignorance is no excuse! 


Nowhere in this state is the buck to doe ratio 1 /1. That is why the limit is as high as it is. 

You can find NO data from a biologist that tells you that 40% of your does can bred. That number is way off. Fawns are not counted as does that can be bred. All accurate data does not include yearlings are bred stock.

I am not going to argue what the percentage of fawn mortality rate is. The numbers the DNR comes up with tells you to shoot every yote you see. The DNR also wants you to shoot every hog you see. (Another topic)

The limits are where they are for a reason, they say the current population cannot maintain that limit, is well stupid.

Our deer herd is healthy. I personally do not want to go back to the 70's where I found dead deer on every creek in middle Georgia from numerous causes other than a bullet, all from over population.

Ignorance is no excuse!


----------



## deerhuntingdawg (Jul 16, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Simple math based on the data...
> 
> Pre season herd of 990,000
> 
> ...



Good post^^


----------



## Jeff Phillips (Jul 16, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> Nowhere in this state is the buck to doe ratio 1 /1. That is why the limit is as high as it is.
> 
> You can find NO data from a biologist that tells you that 40% of your does can bred. That number is way off. Fawns are not counted as does that can be bred. All accurate data does not include yearlings are bred stock.
> 
> ...



One more attempt to help you understand...

The herd has more bucks than does on a statewide basis. It is biologically impossible for it to be otherwise based on the harvest data. The herd is most likely less than 40% does.  *The limit is set by the legislature (not WRD) and has zero relation to the health of the herd or biological input. The input came from lobbyist.*

All the does will be bred and maybe 40% of those fawns will survive. Many think it is a lower number based on studies at Fort Rucker and Savannah River Plant.

This is not my opinion, look at the numbers and try to understand the herd dynamics of today's herd, the 70's are long gone and we can not base decisions on what happened 40 years ago.

We are in a predator pit. The pressure on the does and fawns from predators, human and animal, are greater than the herd can replace. If black tongue hits this herd we are in serious trouble!


----------



## Bucky T (Jul 16, 2014)

Both of the clubs I'm a member of have a very healthy deer population.  Lots of deer and healthy deer.

I shot 4 does last year.  3 off of one club and the other was well...on private land, but only a couple of miles away from my other club.

On one place we limit the doe harvest to 3 per member.  On the other, there aren't any rules, but there are only 5 of us.  I think I was the only member who killed a doe last year there.  A guest did kill another.  So 4 does total.

I personally don't mind the limit the way it is.  It gives hunters the flexibility to manage their doe harvest how they see fit.

I'm not a fan of closing the doe season down in December..because  it gets in my way of how I want to shoot does, but it might work out for other folks.  Basically, that is my only minor gripe at the moment.


----------



## spurrs and racks (Jul 16, 2014)

*Where did you get this.............*

"The herd has more bucks than does on a statewide basis."


total false


----------



## Jeff Phillips (Jul 16, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> "The herd has more bucks than does on a statewide basis."
> 
> 
> total false



Did you look at the data elfiii posted? This data came directly from our wildlife biologists at WRD and is the very best we have to work with.

Fact: Does have made up 60% of the kill for over a decade. 
Fact: Fawns are born at 50% bucks and 50% does.

Unless there are a bunch of 15 year old does in the state it is biologically IMPOSSIBLE for there to be more does than bucks.

Please look at the data...


----------



## elfiii (Jul 16, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Did you look at the data elfiii posted? This data came directly from our wildlife biologists at WRD and is the very best we have to work with.
> 
> Fact: Does have made up 60% of the kill for over a decade.
> Fact: Fawns are born at 50% bucks and 50% does.
> ...



Try as you might.


----------



## grouper throat (Jul 16, 2014)

^ don't feel too bad. Guys here can't understand the fact that does produce fawns which turn into small bucks for the future..


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## Jeff Phillips (Jul 16, 2014)

elfiii said:


> Try as you might.



I am trying to keep it simple

As I advised during our meetings with the biologist, some hunters can not be depended on to control themselves based on basic science...


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## Milkman (Jul 16, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> I am trying to keep it simple
> 
> As I advised during our meetings with the biologist, some hunters can not be depended on to control themselves based on basic science...



Jeff,  I think a large percentage of those reading this thread agree with what we are trying to share. I hope more folks will listen and learn before it is too late.

Here is something to go along with Lee's image above.


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## elfiii (Jul 16, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> I am trying to keep it simple
> 
> As I advised during our meetings with the biologist, some hunters can not be depended on to control themselves based on basic science...



Control is one thing. Arguing against the scientific facts is......


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## Riverrat84 (Jul 16, 2014)

I plan on filling my tags again this year, Other than an occasional steak no beef gets served in my wife's kitchen. For me personally, the new doe rules last year were a thorn in my side. Where I would usually wait a couple weeks before going after meat and try to kill me a nice buck first, I had to get meat and by then bucks have already gotten skiddish. I do make it a point to try and take care of my game and in turn the game feeds my family.


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## mtr3333 (Jul 16, 2014)

elfiii said:


> From 1962 down to 2013:
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=8484484&postcount=56





Jeff Phillips said:


> Thanks for posting this elfiii.
> 
> The posters who really need this information probably won't read it, but there it is...
> 
> What we have been doing from a harvest perspective is simply not sustainable.





mtr3333 said:


> Thanks for posting again. How many bucks are counted as does? *The harvest record doesn't distinguish between antlerless bucks and antlerless does. How much would this affect the distribution numbers? *Is this harvest record part or the whole source of data collection?





Ahem...

Are we certain the 60+% doe harvest is an accurate account? Or, is this being overlooked? Antlerless does not equal doe...


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## bigblocktransam (Jul 16, 2014)

Riverrat84 said:


> I plan on filling my tags again this year, Other than an occasional steak no beef gets served in my wife's kitchen. For me personally, the new doe rules last year were a thorn in my side. Where I would usually wait a couple weeks before going after meat and try to kill me a nice buck first, I had to get meat and by then bucks have already gotten skiddish. I do make it a point to try and take care of my game and in turn the game feeds my family.



Well liberal doe limits and harvest is a thorn in my side.. Everyone managed their property the way "they" see fit. Don't mean they have a clue as to what they are doing.


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## JB0704 (Jul 16, 2014)

mtr3333 said:


> Antlerless does not equal doe...



It does for a lot of folks, until they walk up to the dead deer and say "uh oh....."


----------



## elfiii (Jul 16, 2014)

mtr3333 said:


> Ahem...
> 
> Are we certain the 60+% doe harvest is an accurate account? Or, is this being overlooked? Antlerless does not equal doe...



Send CKillmaster a pm and ask him. The survey is a telephone survey and respondents are asked how many bucks and how many does they killed.


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## mtr3333 (Jul 16, 2014)

elfiii said:


> send ckillmaster a pm and ask him. The survey is a telephone survey and respondents are asked how many bucks and how many does they killed.


ok.


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## kmckinnie (Jul 16, 2014)

Where I hunt I have a good deer population. We have does, we have young bucks & we have big bucks. We have managed our area well & its thick with brush. That helps.


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## shakey gizzard (Jul 16, 2014)

kmckinnie said:


> Where I hunt I have a good deer population. We have does, we have young bucks & we have big bucks. We have managed our area well & its thick with brush. That helps.



Dang brush!


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## spurrs and racks (Jul 17, 2014)

*read and learn*

http://www.qdma.com/articles/the-reality-of-doebuck-ratios


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## nickel back (Jul 17, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> http://www.qdma.com/articles/the-reality-of-doebuck-ratios



 sweet baby Jesus!!

spurrs your lack of understanding what we are talking about is unreal

qdma is part of  the problem in most parts of Ga. deer woods.


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## DeoVindice (Jul 17, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> I would love to start hearing folks say "if you need meat, shoot a button head," at least in those areas where the does have been hammered.  I know if the opportunity presents itself, my freezer may hold a button head by seasons' end, and I'll be glad for it.......and I won't say "I thought it was a doe."



I have not shot a doe in at least 5 years. I see plenty of them but have no desire to shoot them. At the end of last season I decided to shoot a doe because I wanted some more meat. Turned out to be a button head. Was I upset? Oh yeah...I cried all the way to the dinner table.


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## JB0704 (Jul 17, 2014)

DeoVindice said:


> I have not shot a doe in at least 5 years. I see plenty of them but have no desire to shoot them. At the end of last season I decided to shoot a doe because I wanted some more meat. Turned out to be a button head. Was I upset? Oh yeah...I cried all the way to the dinner table.



There's nothing wrong with shootin' a button head unles your club has rules against it.  I'm not sure what the situation is where you hunt, but, in places I have hunted recently, a button head is the better option when looking for dinner.

All deer are good eatin'.  Old bucks, young bucks, if the meat is handled right, they are all fantastic.

My only gripe on this area is the few folks who shoot everything they see, and then, as if the deer is not worthy, tell everybody "I thought it was a doe."  Once every now and then is understandable.....heck, it's happened to me. But, I know a fella who shot 8 button heads one year.  The line got very old by the end of that season.


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## Jeff Phillips (Jul 17, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> http://www.qdma.com/articles/the-reality-of-doebuck-ratios



I read this again. What do you believe this does to make your point?


----------



## Milkman (Jul 17, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> http://www.qdma.com/articles/the-reality-of-doebuck-ratios



The article and supporting chart is scientifically accurate IMO.  However it presupposes that there is a very high doe to buck ratio in the sample shown.

What we are suggesting is that we *DO NOT* have this sort of ratio anymore in many places. It is the opinion of some experienced hunters posting here that the entire population is nearly wiped out in some local areas. 

We are aware that this problem is not the same across the board but is very real in many locations.  We also know who the main culprit is in most of the demise of the deer herd. US, so it is up to us to help with the solution.


----------



## elfiii (Jul 17, 2014)

Milkman said:


> The article and supporting chart is scientifically accurate IMO.  However it presupposes that there is a very high doe to buck ratio in the sample shown.
> 
> What we are suggesting is that we *DO NOT* have this sort of ratio anymore in many places. It is the opinion of some experienced hunters posting here that the entire population is nearly wiped out in some local areas.
> 
> We are aware that this problem is not the same across the board but is very real in many locations.  We also know who the main culprit is in most of the demise of the deer herd. US, so it is up to us to help with the solution.



It seems so simple to understand. I am curious as to what the mental block is?


----------



## Bucky T (Jul 17, 2014)

bigblocktransam said:


> Well liberal doe limits and harvest is a thorn in my side.. Everyone managed their property the way "they" see fit. Don't mean they have a clue as to what they are doing.



Better than the govt putting its boot on your neck.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jul 17, 2014)

elfiii said:


> It seems so simple to understand. I am curious as to what the mental block is?



I think sometimes, these calcium-based parasitic growths illustrated below get stuck in the synopses of the mental neurons and don't allow the free passage of common sense molecules from one brain lobe to the other:


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 17, 2014)

Bucky T said:


> Better than the govt putting its boot on your neck.



The 10 deer limit/season long ES days are just a different expression of gov't authority.  For example, let's say your neighbor wants 11 does, and 3 bucks.  He can also claim the gov't has their boot on his neck.....same as if he prefers to deer hunt in February.  The gov't won't let him do what he wants.

I saw a good idea in SC's regs where individual tracts of land can have quotas set, everybody else buys specific tags (at $5 a piece......cheap).  This would solve a LOT of our debates.  Guys who are over run with does can get a quota and shoot all of them without having to share.


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## JB0704 (Jul 17, 2014)

C.Killmaster......I've seen your name down there viewing this thread.....is there a current estimate on the statewide buck:doe ratio?


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## elfiii (Jul 17, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> The 10 deer limit/season long ES days are just a different expression of gov't authority.  For example, let's say your neighbor wants 11 does, and 3 bucks.  He can also claim the gov't has their boot on his neck.....same as if he prefers to deer hunt in February.  The gov't won't let him do what he wants.
> 
> I saw a good idea in SC's regs where individual tracts of land can have quotas set, everybody else buys specific tags (at $5 a piece......cheap).  This would solve a LOT of our debates.  Guys who are over run with does can get a quota and shoot all of them without having to share.



It's called "DMAP" - Deer Management Assistance Plan. Our WRD is looking into it. Our committee recommended they push it. Whether or not the G.A. agrees with it remains to be seen.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 17, 2014)

elfiii said:


> It's called "DMAP" - Deer Management Assistance Plan. Our WRD is looking into it. Our committee recommended they push it. Whether or not the G.A. agrees with it remains to be seen.



Very cool.  I can't really see much argument against it, unless it's a cost thing.


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## Milkman (Jul 17, 2014)

Lee,

Since you are one of those mathematical folks I have a question.

What would the buck to doe ratio be on the places in West Ga where there are no deer?


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## NOYDB (Jul 17, 2014)

Ga gvmt will agree to increase bag limits for increased income. Charge per deer. Change to a per deer fee. With a surcharge to  paid to the campaign funds of sitting legislators. Unlimited bag limits will ensue.


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## DeoVindice (Jul 17, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> There's nothing wrong with shootin' a button head unles your club has rules against it.  I'm not sure what the situation is where you hunt, but, in places I have hunted recently, a button head is the better option when looking for dinner.
> 
> All deer are good eatin'.  Old bucks, young bucks, if the meat is handled right, they are all fantastic.
> 
> My only gripe on this area is the few folks who shoot everything they see, and then, as if the deer is not worthy, tell everybody "I thought it was a doe."  Once every now and then is understandable.....heck, it's happened to me. But, I know a fella who shot 8 button heads one year.  The line got very old by the end of that season.



Totally agree with all of this. The button head I shot was running with 4 other deer, all does from what I could see. But yeah, he tasted great. 

This reminds me of a story about my best friend's Dad. He had not shot a deer in years and then one morning he shot two button heads. He thought they were does and was upset about it and it angered him because he could tell we were biting our tongues trying not to laugh. Just good fun we were having with him. Anyway, we decided to make up some flyers and post them up around camp. The flyers had a picture of Bambi and said "$500 reward for the return of our 2 pet baby deer, Fifi and Twinkles"...It was pretty funny...Even he laughed when he pulled out a flyer stuck under his windshield wiper.


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## Lilly001 (Jul 17, 2014)

Actually , shooting buttons is probably the least harm you could do to the herd. The does still alive will keep repopulating the herd. And a few buttons will make it through to placate the horn hunters.


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## T-N-T (Jul 17, 2014)

Button heads are tasty as can be.  But I will shoot a doe over a button head on MY lease.  We have a shortage of doe hunters and a surplus of antler hunters.
Nothing wrong with any of it though.  Deer are given to man to enjoy.  
I will enjoy mine on cold morning from the tree,  and then again and again through the year.


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## elfiii (Jul 17, 2014)

Milkman said:


> Lee,
> 
> Since you are one of those mathematical folks I have a question.
> 
> What would the buck to doe ratio be on the places in West Ga where there are no deer?



My trail cam survey in SE Troup Co says doe to buck ratio is less than 1:1. I have 3 cameras out 24/7/365. Only the one over the mineral lick is getting pics. That camera has shown 14 different deer consistently over the last 4 months. 6 does and 8 bucks. No fawns yet and that is disconcerting. We're way past fawn drop time.


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## Milkman (Jul 18, 2014)

So do we all agree now to make the doe sacred ???


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## jmharris23 (Jul 18, 2014)

elfiii said:


> My trail cam survey in SE Troup Co says doe to buck ratio is less than 1:1. I have 3 cameras out 24/7/365. Only the one over the mineral lick is getting pics. That camera has shown 14 different deer consistently over the last 4 months. 6 does and 8 bucks. No fawns yet and that is disconcerting. We're way past fawn drop time.



I've not seen a fawn on my cams either and it's the first summer I ever remember not getting fawn pictures. Very disconcerting.


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## Nicodemus (Jul 18, 2014)

Milkman said:


> So do we all agree now to make the doe sacred ???





The old South Georgia term "leave some seed" still applies, to everything from squirrels, quail, and everything up to and including deer.


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## Lilly001 (Jul 18, 2014)

Milkman said:


> So do we all agree now to make the doe sacred ???



In areas with a herd below carrying capacity, yes.
In other areas, only to the point of wise management.
It seems to me that the Ga deer herd is in need of help in some areas. One of the biggest problems to providing relief is the division of the state into to few geographic management regions. It's hard to tell a hunter not to shoot does when his hunting area is overrun with them. Yet his neighbor in the same current management area has none.


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## Bucky T (Jul 18, 2014)

elfiii said:


> My trail cam survey in SE Troup Co says doe to buck ratio is less than 1:1. I have 3 cameras out 24/7/365. Only the one over the mineral lick is getting pics. That camera has shown 14 different deer consistently over the last 4 months. 6 does and 8 bucks. No fawns yet and that is disconcerting. We're way past fawn drop time.



Lot of times does don't bring their fawns out into the mineral/corn/bait sites.

I helped my neighbor and good friend set up a feeder behind his house.  I can see it from my house too.  There has been only 1 doe that has showed up.  She has brought her fawn to it only 1 time in 4 weeks.  She is there every single day eating. 

Out of thousands of trail cam pics we've gotten on our hunting lease this summer, we may have only 5 or so fawn pics.  But.......  The deer population there is excellent.  No problems seeing deer almost every trip to the deer stand.

I never get tons of fawn pics.


----------



## Nicodemus (Jul 18, 2014)

Bucky T said:


> Lot of times does don't bring their fawns out into the mineral/corn/bait sites.
> 
> I helped my neighbor and good friend set up a feeder behind his house.  I can see it from my house too.  There has been only 1 doe that has showed up.  She has brought her fawn to it only 1 time in 4 weeks.  She is there every single day eating.
> 
> ...





Good point. I would think that does would know by instinct that a small feeding area like that would be a good ambush spot for predators. Interesting thought anyway.


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## mtr3333 (Jul 18, 2014)

Bucky T said:


> Lot of times does don't bring their fawns out into the mineral/corn/bait sites.
> 
> I helped my neighbor and good friend set up a feeder behind his house.  I can see it from my house too.  There has been only 1 doe that has showed up.  She has brought her fawn to it only 1 time in 4 weeks.  She is there every single day eating.
> 
> ...



The best way to get rid of fawns is for the does to have them travel with them. Fawns are kept in safe places and are fed there. There is no reason to expose the fawn to danger. Another good reason to abandon feeding stations in favor of the use of food plots. Feeders are great ambush points.


----------



## Bucky T (Jul 18, 2014)

Nicodemus said:


> Good point. I would think that does would know by instinct that a small feeding area like that would be a good ambush spot for predators. Interesting thought anyway.



Ambush location for predators.


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## Bucky T (Jul 18, 2014)

mtr3333 said:


> The best way to get rid of fawns is for the does to have them travel with them. Fawns are kept in safe places and are fed there. There is no reason to expose the fawn to danger. Another good reason to abandon feeding stations in favor of the use of food plots. Feeders are great ambush points.



So are small food plots.


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## quality hunter (Jul 18, 2014)

elfiii said:


> My trail cam survey in SE Troup Co says doe to buck ratio is less than 1:1. I have 3 cameras out 24/7/365. Only the one over the mineral lick is getting pics. That camera has shown 14 different deer consistently over the last 4 months. 6 does and 8 bucks. No fawns yet and that is disconcerting. We're way past fawn drop time.



Not seeing any fawn pics either in Troup. Does were pregnant. Getting doe pics no fawns. I saw four different does last weekend nothing. Coyotes r not bad I took care of them.


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## lonewolf247 (Jul 18, 2014)

I don't hunt in Georgia, so I'll give an outside opinion, looking in.... The most obvious thing that stands out to me is, 10 antlerless deer!  Wow!

I really don't think any area could withstand that sort of harvest rates, and maintain a good deer herd.  Guessing maybe this was an effort to control certain over-populated areas at some point, but long term, it doesn't seem like a good idea. It sounds like folks realize it's sorta extreme, and taking it upon theirselves to harvest less at least.

As far as shooting more does, and bringing up the buck population, I really can't see that either.  Common sense approach, bucks are born from does, so shooting more doesn't seem like it would help.  

I can also speak from being in the same club for over 35 years. In the early years, we had the largest deer population , and also, the largest buck population, as well as the larger bucks.

After being in the club for ~10-12 years, the large neighboring club slaughtered the does, and immediately, we suffered to see deer, bucks and does, for the next decade or so.

Slowly its coming back again, and as our doe deer popluation, is getting better, so is the number and the size of our bucks.  

Just my observations, but as long as your land can support the deer herd, I don't see a need to really reduce the does in large numbers.

If your club allows it, it worked well for us back in the day to shoot one smaller buck per member, for meat, and we let the kids shoot the does, which only accounted for a few. 

Basically, come up with a plan, to give members a chance to harvest a deer for meat, but not over harvest the does.


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## deerbuster (Jul 18, 2014)

I may sound very uneducated by saying this, and please someone step in, and this may be slightly off topic. Wouldn't the best month to shoot a doe, if you want to take one would be in October? 
Now I am a bow hunter in the southern region of the state and I am able to hunt September through January. It makes sense to me that killing a doe in September may endanger a fawn, IF the doe has fawns, which allows for no protection from predators other than hiding and cover. With that being said, November, December, and January would also be a poor time do to does being bred and potentially caring a fetus or fawn. I don't understand not being able to shoot does in December but then it opening up again in late December into January, seems to me it kind of defeats the purpose. 
Someone please chime in and tell me if my reasoning is completely garbage or if it makes some sense?


----------



## mtr3333 (Jul 18, 2014)

Bucky T said:


> So are small food plots.



Absolutely.


----------



## Milkman (Jul 18, 2014)

deerbuster said:


> I may sound very uneducated by saying this, and please someone step in, and this may be slightly off topic. Wouldn't the best month to shoot a doe, if you want to take one would be in October?
> Now I am a bow hunter in the southern region of the state and I am able to hunt September through January. It makes sense to me that killing a doe in September may endanger a fawn, IF the doe has fawns, which allows for no protection from predators other than hiding and cover. With that being said, November, December, and January would also be a poor time do to does being bred and potentially caring a fetus or fawn. I don't understand not being able to shoot does in December but then it opening up again in late December into January, seems to me it kind of defeats the purpose.
> Someone please chime in and tell me if my reasoning is completely garbage or if it makes some sense?



Now the gist of this thread is that many areas of Ga. cant support the loss of breeding does.  But with that said to answer your question........
I agree with not shooting a doe while she is still nursing a fawn. However shooting one after she is bred doesn't harm the meat in any way. 

The reason for the buck only days is so hunters wanting to take a deer, any deer will shoot a buck and leave a doe to live and breed.


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## panfried0419 (Jul 19, 2014)

Milkman said:


> So do we all agree now to make the doe sacred ???



Yeah....in my freezer!


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## mguthrie (Jul 19, 2014)

It's garbage. Doesn't matter when you shoot a doe. If you shoot it in October it won't have a chance to breed. If you let it walk it will. Any deer biologist will tell you that. I can see the point of shooting a BB instead. The only problem is there isn't much meat on a 70 lb deer. I shot one last year thinking it was a doe. Got ribbing for the rest of the season. We eat 5-6 adult deer every year so I shoot does. Our lease can handle 20-30 does taken off of it every year. Most members hunt horns so that leaves plenty for the rest of us


----------



## mtr3333 (Jul 19, 2014)

Milkman said:


> Now the gist of this thread is that many areas of Ga. cant support the loss of breeding does.  But with that said to answer your question........
> I agree with not shooting a doe while she is still nursing a fawn. However shooting one after she is bred doesn't harm the meat in any way.
> 
> The reason for the buck only days is so hunters wanting to take a deer, any deer will shoot a buck and leave a doe to live and breed.



And the reason for "antlerless" days is to thin 'em out... The problem is, and there is only one, discretion is absent far too often.


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## The Longhunter (Jul 19, 2014)

mguthrie said:


> The only problem is there isn't much meat on a 70 lb deer.



But it's very very very tender, and by the time you shoot three of them, you have a mess.  Kind of like brook trout.


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## DeoVindice (Jul 19, 2014)

Milkman said:


> So do we all agree now to make the doe sacred ???



haha...Sorry can't do that. 

Without does we have no bucks, true, but without bucks we have no does. I remember one time I shot a 4 pointer instead of a much better (rack) 6 pointer. 2 does were also present. Last week of the season on a small tract down from my house. I decided the 4 pointer would be the best one to shoot because it would have a good bit of meat and his rack was pretty lousy. No that doesn't mean too much but that's why I shot him. Its called deer hunting. Anytime we take a deer we did what we came to do. To hunt deer. I was happy to have that 4 point. I didn't expect to see anything at that place and instead came out with a buck. So with me it totally depends on the situation. I can still enjoy taking an average deer given the right circumstances. With one buck tag remaining in the last week it wasn't even a question in my mind.


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## SakoL61R (Jul 19, 2014)

One thing I have not seen mentioned in this thread is the number of deer that are killed under "Crop Damage Permits".  

Does anyone have any data as to the number of deer that are killed?  By year?  County?  Or at least the number of permits issued? 

By no means am I bashing farmers for killing deer that are damaging crops, I would just like to know the numbers involved.


Of interest,  (to some, possibly) and pertaining to the subject at hand are these articles:

http://www.georgiawildlife.com/site...Mgmt/Controlling Deer Damage Booklet 2008.pdf

http://www.georgiawildlife.com/site..._Mgmt/Publications/Deer Herd Mgmt Booklet.pdf


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## NOYDB (Jul 19, 2014)

Every one kills the maximum number of does possible. All the posters here kill at least 10 a year because it's legal. Raise he limit to 20 and sure e'nuf 20 will be killed each season. Just have to account for all the "culls" needed.


We know that's true because we heard that the hunt club next door did it last year.


Ever wonder how they manage to fire enough rounds to make that possible? That's why boxes of rifle cartridges come in lots of 20. Have to make sure Elmer can get his limit.


----------



## GTHunter007 (Jul 20, 2014)

All of us hunters here would likely claim to be "stewards" of the land and "champions" for protecting our heritage and hunting roots and helping the environment.  With the loss of the red wolves, a mixed breed K-9 known as the coyote has moved in...and sweepingly so they have flourished.  Mistakenly IMO we as "stewards" of the land and lovers of the environment and nature, now feel this new predator is affecting OUR game, the whitetail.  So we want to eradicate this new enemy, instead of learn to live with it.  

We watch our TVs, we see the giant fantasy world whitetails, we see this and that mineral/feed growing obnoxious antlers and think...if we manage our deer like that, we can have abnormal beasts walking around.  Couple this idea with a HUGELY misunderstood teaching of QDMA (which is blindly followed by many many clubs across this state with absolutely ZERO knowledge for what QDMA actually teaches) and you land in a state filled with hunters that feel the doe dictates their antler output.  

Now that we have reached a certain point, a point where land prices have gone through the roof, hunter numbers must increase to pay the bills, forget the 10 doe limit, 4 guys killing 10 does is equal to 10 guys killing 4.  How unlikely is the 4 guys taking 10??  Way less likely than 10 guys taking 4.  This is an easy thing to figure out and individual properties with large numbers of hunters need to be able to address this problem.   I can't control what others do, what I can control is my trigger finger.  If I didn't/couldn't see any does throughout the season, the one I did see Thanksgiving week would not take a dirt nap.  Counter intuitive IMO.  Yet in a club setting where a guy paid his 1k bucks for 3 does and 2 bucks...you better believe he HAS to get his when the opportunity arises.  

I hunt in an area where deer numbers are great...and have been for 30+ years.  The neighbors moved in and took out 60+ does on their 1k acres and we couldn't even tell.  They now maintain their levels with fewer doe harvested but for me, our area is not a problem area like some.  I know that.  We also have a healthy population of coyotes, we don't stress shooting them, heck I have enjoyed watching them more than once, I have put arrows through plenty as well.  Absolutely awesome to watch another predator hunt.  Many should try it some time.  For me, just like we let young bucks walk to get big, having more deer means having more predators...kinda part of the deal.  For those who feel they are over run by coyotes...if the deer are gone, why are the yotes still there?  What you believe to be their top food source is not around.  Doesn't make a good argument if you ask me.  

For those who are talking about individual land owners getting/paying for extra quota tags to kill on their property...this is already happening.  I can name a couple of large land owners/farmers, who also manage and produce huge whitetails, who once they learned of the December break, got state issued tags and took their doe quota, at night, before season ever came in.  So the big boys who need the big doe harvest totals...will always get theirs.  

To those who see no does on their cameras or in the fields they watch with fawns...that means NOTHING!  The worst place a fawn can be is traveling with his/her mother.  Momma knows this.  When she knows danger is not around, then the baby can come out.  A mineral site with other bucks and does is not a safe spot for a fawn...nor is ANY feed station, foodplot or mineral lick.  RUn trail cams on video mode a few times on a fixed feeding spot and see the danger a fawn would be in sticking his/her little head in the wrong spot.  The baby doesn't need it so there is no need to go.

Simply stated, from what I have seen and read and listened to...hunter education is our biggest problem.  "yeah we practice QDMA, we have a 4 on a side 18" main beam rule on bucks"...is a very very bad signal.


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## mtr3333 (Jul 20, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> Simply stated, from what I have seen and read and listened to...hunter education is our biggest problem.  "yeah we practice QDMA, we have a 4 on a side 18" main beam rule on bucks"...is a very very bad signal.



Exactly. Every amount of focus should be on a naturally self sufficient wild herd with ecological balance for healthy deer. All that tweaking for the sake of manipulating antler size is the result of marketing to people who want to believe they can farm a trophy. There is a much greater experience than having some ad make you buy their product and change everything you do into "managing". Enjoy the woods and exercise trigger control for the sake of the population. The day that wild big boy appears will be even more rewarding than anything you can manufacture.


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## Ga160club (Jul 20, 2014)

read this article…. it should shed light on the subject at hand…

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/A+Dec...d's+Greatest+Whitetail+Hunting...-a0367717793


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## DeoVindice (Jul 20, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> To those who see no does on their cameras or in the fields they watch with fawns...that means NOTHING!  The worst place a fawn can be is traveling with his/her mother.  Momma knows this.  When she knows danger is not around, then the baby can come out.  A mineral site with other bucks and does is not a safe spot for a fawn...nor is ANY feed station, foodplot or mineral lick.  RUn trail cams on video mode a few times on a fixed feeding spot and see the danger a fawn would be in sticking his/her little head in the wrong spot.  The baby doesn't need it so there is no need to go.
> .



This is true. I once had a doe trot by me while I was walking down a road on the property, running but not full speed, right by me at 10 yards. It was a fairly open space where this happened. I watched her trot by and was puzzled by her bahavior. She did not appear to be a doe being chased by a buck, and I stood there for a minute or two waiting. Sure enough after a couple minutes a yearling came dashing out of the brush right in my path and ran around me. I laughed about it because I had just witnessed something pretty cool. The doe was trying to distract me and give chase to her instead of her yearling. I was a teenager then but I never forgot it. So yeah, just because you may see a doe without fawns does not mean they aren't there. It also told me that some of those big, older does are plenty smart.


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## Jeff Phillips (Jul 21, 2014)

Ga160club said:


> read this article…. it should shed light on the subject at hand…
> 
> http://www.thefreelibrary.com/A+Dec...d's+Greatest+Whitetail+Hunting...-a0367717793



Sounds like Iowa has gone down the same road as Georgia.

As you can see from many of the responses to this thread, some hunters just don't care and will require regulation changes to control themselves, if then.


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## Milkman (Jul 21, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> As you can see from many of the responses to this thread, some hunters just don't care and will require regulation changes to control themselves, if then.



Therein lies the need for the legislature to be informed that Ga needs to go back to the bag limits which produced the deer populations of the 80's and 90's.

 You know the ones that we all reminisce about.


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## mtr3333 (Jul 21, 2014)

Milkman said:


> Therein lies the need for the legislature to be informed that Ga needs to go back to the bag limits which produced the deer populations of the 80's and 90's.
> 
> You know the ones that we all reminisce about.


Really? Deer were overpopulated as a result. When that happens again, then what? A more rapid spread of EHD? CWD outbreak in Harris Co.? The horror...


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## shakey gizzard (Jul 21, 2014)

mtr3333 said:


> Really? Deer were overpopulated as a result. When that happens again, then what? A more rapid spread of EHD? CWD outbreak in Harris Co.? The horror...



Who told you they were "over populated"?


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## Milkman (Jul 21, 2014)

mtr3333 said:


> Really? Deer were overpopulated as a result. When that happens again, then what? A more rapid spread of EHD? CWD outbreak in Harris Co.? The horror...



You really think deer could over populate in Ga.


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## GTHunter007 (Jul 21, 2014)

Milkman said:


> Therein lies the need for the legislature to be informed that Ga needs to go back to the bag limits which produced the deer populations of the 80's and 90's.
> 
> You know the ones that we all reminisce about.


Not sure where you feel the "legislature" wants to go back to the deer numbers from 20+ years ago.  Make no mistake, here in GA deer legislation has NEVER been about providing us as hunters a better hunting experience.  It has been about controlling deer numbers for the farmers and insurance companies.  Not sure as hunters we can ever change that thought process.


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## elfiii (Jul 21, 2014)

Bucky T said:


> Lot of times does don't bring their fawns out into the mineral/corn/bait sites.



I have 13 years of trail cam pics at the same mineral lick showing plenty of does with multiple fawns in tow at the lick. Last year I had 4 different does with 6 fawns hitting that lick regularly all Summer long.

I would imagine it's a case by case basis with does not bringing their fawn to areas where they sense a threat.


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## mtr3333 (Jul 21, 2014)

elfiii said:


> I have 13 years of trail cam pics at the same mineral lick showing plenty of does with multiple fawns in tow at the lick. Last year I had 4 different does with 6 fawns hitting that lick regularly all Summer long.
> 
> I would imagine it's a case by case basis with does not bringing their fawn to areas where they sense a threat.



We have been about a month behind on everything I have seen when it comes to all types of wildlife cycles for almost a year. This must be some kind of biological leap year. I'm not seeing any of the does I saw last year. It could be due to the fact I didn't put in a garden. On that same token, there could also be something similar with the deer woods too.


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## mtr3333 (Jul 21, 2014)

shakey gizzard said:


> Who told you they were "over populated"?



I seen it!


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## FordHunter (Jul 21, 2014)

I have 600 acres that my family hunts.  We started with 250 acres and have leased more since then.  We have had the property for 6 years now.  The first year we had no cameras out and did not know what the population was on the property.  Because of that we shot no does.  I can tell you though because of the harvest around our properties we can hear on average 5-10 shots each hunt.  Because of this we have decided not to take does.  Even though we do not kill does there are multiple hunts a year where we will not see deer.  I understand people wanting to put meat in the freezer, but there is a time and place and I just feel that people really need to put their properties needs ahead of their own.  We have a resource that I feel is threatened due to over taking and coyotes.  If people keep killing even if it is the legal limit the number of deer fall.  A healthy doe can drop two fawns.  If it is not for does then there is no deer to repopulate.  I can tell you that in the 10 years I have been hunting I have noticed a decline in the number of deer in the woods and I have hunted all over the state.  I feel that if people do not take accountability now the hunting resources for the state will continue to dwindle till young hunters will not want to go sit in the woods anymore.


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## Milkman (Jul 21, 2014)

FordHunter said:


> I have 600 acres that my family hunts.  We started with 250 acres and have leased more since then.  We have had the property for 6 years now.  The first year we had no cameras out and did not know what the population was on the property.  Because of that we shot no does.  I can tell you though because of the harvest around our properties we can hear on average 5-10 shots each hunt.  Because of this we have decided not to take does.  Even though we do not kill does there are multiple hunts a year where we will not see deer.  I understand people wanting to put meat in the freezer, but there is a time and place and I just feel that people really need to put their properties needs ahead of their own.  We have a resource that I feel is threatened due to over taking and coyotes.  If people keep killing even if it is the legal limit the number of deer fall.  A healthy doe can drop two fawns.  If it is not for does then there is no deer to repopulate.  I can tell you that in the 10 years I have been hunting I have noticed a decline in the number of deer in the woods and I have hunted all over the state.  I feel that if people do not take accountability now the hunting resources for the state will continue to dwindle till young hunters will not want to go sit in the woods anymore.



My friend you just summarized my intent with this thread into one post.


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## GTHunter007 (Jul 21, 2014)

FordHunter said:


> I have 600 acres that my family hunts.  We started with 250 acres and have leased more since then.  We have had the property for 6 years now.  The first year we had no cameras out and did not know what the population was on the property.  Because of that we shot no does.  I can tell you though because of the harvest around our properties we can hear on average 5-10 shots each hunt.  Because of this we have decided not to take does.  Even though we do not kill does there are multiple hunts a year where we will not see deer.  I understand people wanting to put meat in the freezer, but there is a time and place and I just feel that people really need to put their properties needs ahead of their own.  We have a resource that I feel is threatened due to over taking and coyotes.  If people keep killing even if it is the legal limit the number of deer fall.  A healthy doe can drop two fawns.  If it is not for does then there is no deer to repopulate.  I can tell you that in the 10 years I have been hunting I have noticed a decline in the number of deer in the woods and I have hunted all over the state.  I feel that if people do not take accountability now the hunting resources for the state will continue to dwindle till young hunters will not want to go sit in the woods anymore.





Milkman said:


> My friend you just summarized my intent with this thread into one post.



What I can't grasp is EVERYONE here on GON is letting their deer walk, understand that numbers have declined, believe the coyotes are taking the fawns...yet it is always the neighbor's fault.  Ever tried talking to these other clubs?  Other families?  Asking them what they see?  If they shoot 4-5 times a day, yet you aren't seeing deer...are they shooting deer?  Those of us on the internet are super educated in what the deer herd needs...its the illiterate non-forum members that are killing all the deer.  Am I the only one that catches this hypocrisy?


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## Bucky T (Jul 21, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> What I can't grasp is EVERYONE here on GON is letting their deer walk, understand that numbers have declined, believe the coyotes are taking the fawns...yet it is always the neighbor's fault.  Ever tried talking to these other clubs?  Other families?  Asking them what they see?  If they shoot 4-5 times a day, yet you aren't seeing deer...are they shooting deer?  Those of us on the internet are super educated in what the deer herd needs...its the illiterate non-forum members that are killing all the deer.  Am I the only one that catches this hypocrisy?



I simply want access to some of these properties that the deer have vanished from to see it first hand.

I guess I've been super fortunate to hunt places from 1990 till present day that have deer.


Here's a list of counties I've hunted here in Ga just for reference.  It means nothing, I'm not saying I'm right and everybody else is wrong, just something for people to look at.

Hancock
Putnam
Jasper
Taylor
Talbot
Newton
Rockdale
Franklin
White
Mitchell
Screven
Greene
Washington
Barrow
Morgan


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## JB0704 (Jul 22, 2014)

Bucky T said:


> I guess I've been super fortunate to hunt places from 1990 till present day that have deer.



The issue hasn't existed since 1990.  I am furtunate that I have been hunting several locations each year since 1991.  What I have seen since 2007(ish) is a steady decline in certain areas, but not others.  It got to the point in some locations that I was under a 20% sighting/hunt ratio, while being well over 50% at others.  Trail cams told the same story that I was seeing from the stand.  I know my hunting abilities didn't change from one property to the next, so there was something going on.

There is no question as to whether there are less deer since the last 10 year plan was implemented.  In fact, there are 1/3 less.  This was the whole idea anyway, as the deer were over populated at their peak, and such a high # of deer was not sustainable.

But, if the statewide impact has been 33%, it would make sense that some areas have been hit harder than others.  This generally follows where there is high hunter density.  For instance, my "wasteland" lease was in an area which is infamous for the "300 acre club with 15 members."  I had 200 acres I shared with one other guy but we did not control enough land to have much of an impact.  That particular piece of property went from seeing herds of deer to having to work like crazy just to see one.  This happened gradually over 5 years.  At the same time, I was hunting other properties and seeing plenty.

It happens.  I am glad you have not been impacted.  I have been fortunate to adapt to changing conditions.  I dropped what wasn't working and found, for now, greener pastures.  The end result was the best hunting season of my life last year.  But, I am still aware of what I have seen happen elsewhere, and determined not to contribute to the proble anymore.


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## elfiii (Jul 22, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> But, I am still aware of what I have seen happen elsewhere, and determined not to contribute to the proble anymore.



That's the ticket.


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## Bucky T (Jul 22, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> The issue hasn't existed since 1990.  I am furtunate that I have been hunting several locations each year since 1991.  What I have seen since 2007(ish) is a steady decline in certain areas, but not others.  It got to the point in some locations that I was under a 20% sighting/hunt ratio, while being well over 50% at others.  Trail cams told the same story that I was seeing from the stand.  I know my hunting abilities didn't change from one property to the next, so there was something going on.
> 
> There is no question as to whether there are less deer since the last 10 year plan was implemented.  In fact, there are 1/3 less.  This was the whole idea anyway, as the deer were over populated at their peak, and such a high # of deer was not sustainable.
> 
> ...



I simply stated how long I've been chasing whitetails.  Wasn't stating that this supposed problem has been going on that long.

The only place I've stepped foot on in this state that I honestly thought the deer population was sparse, was a stretch of the CNF I was bear hunting in.  Not much deer sign.  And I put miles on my boots that hunt.  Not just a few miles either.  Litereally only saw 3 sets of tracks that day...  

Why do you say for now??  

Do you think your greener pastures are going to brown up??  Does it sound like WWIII on the properties surrounding you?  Are the other members mowing does down left and right?

I never hear near the amount of shooting as I use too.  Maybe it's just spread out over the course of the season?

If I hear 10 shots in a morning nowadays, I think that was a lot of shooting!!  And..  I'm not hunting wasteland dirt.  The deer are there.-

I've never left a piece of dirt because there weren't any deer.

Back to your wasteland lease.  I'm simply curious, not trying to argue.

So...  Why did the deer disappear??  Did they all get shot??  Did coyotes eat them all??  

Did your neighbors have 15 guys packed on to 300 acres??  Did all 15 guys shoot 2 or more does apiece for years??

Was there not killing pressure, but simply human presence 24/7 surrounding you guys??  Did y'all visit your 200 acres every weekend of the year??  Preparing  food plots,  Riding the roads, checking cams, mowing the roads, fixing deer stands, checking more cams, then planting food plots, then finally hunting season arrives??

My curiousity is at an extreme high at the moment!!!

I was in a club some years back and I did notice what constant human presence would do to the deer.

Turned them nocturnal in the middle of the summer....................  There was somebody on that piece of dirt 2 to 3 times a week 24/7.  Plenty of deer, the cameras didn't lie, but if they aren't moving too much during the day...  Well...  

Just an example..that I personally noticed.

And...  how were you contributing to the "problem"?

How many does were you killing a season??  Or was it the fact that even though there weren't many deer, you would pop a doe if you did finally lay eyes on one??  You would contribute if given the opportunity??

Am I and other hunters like myself who kill 4-5 does on a regular basis every season,  contributing to this problem as a whole,  or is it just contributing to the problem trying to accomplish this in deerless areas??  

I like venison.  My family likes venison.  I also give my neighbor and friends who don't hunt venison as well.

My family and I don't have to have venison to survive.....

There is a Kroger within driving distance of the house..

I'm not making that argument.  I simply love to hunt, I shoot what I know will be consumed and enjoyed by everyone in my life.

I'm not in it simply for the antlers.  Even though I like big, mature bucks very much too.


At the moment, I feel there are quite a few folks who aren't seeing deer that want the laws changed to make their hunting lives better.................

"Well there ain't no deer here, change the laws dangit!!!"

Well do something about it without affecting every hunter in the state!!!!  These people need to talk to their neighbors, get info from them, share their info, do something about it!!!  Work with other hunters in the area!!  



It's funny over the years how the cry out was for hunter numbers!!!  Hunter numbers are dwindling!!!  Get the kids out there, they are our future!!!!

Seems that worked!!!

Nowadays....  It's the deer are all gone, there are 20 cats on the 250 acres next door shooting everything including the chipmunks..............

Seems there is a hunter hiding behind every pine waiting to snipe Bambi.  If Bubba don't kill him, there is a drooling yote in the thicket waiting too!!

Heck, I'm looking forward to the next big scare in 20yrs or so!



I'm not singling you out JB.  I just decided to let some of my thoughts and many questions out based on your post.

I wish you the best of luck this season and hope your new club works out for you for many years to come.

BuckyT


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## JB0704 (Jul 22, 2014)

Bucky, I'm on an I phone till later tonight, but I will address a little of your post and circle back later... 

'For now'

I generally hunt small tracts surrounded by small tracts.  One yahoo can do a lot of damage.  I've not only hunted next to them....I grew up hunting with them and have seen what reckless doe shooting can do.  I had, literally, 15 guys on 300 acres next to me.  They had internal limits.  Things were fine till another similar lease took over without internal limits.  So......the deer got shot , and we were all left with the same problem.  I've said it before, but folks only shoot a lot for a little while.  Some learn some don't.

I'll get the rest later.  I don't mind being singled out, it's the nature of things when two folks are certain they are right.


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## JB0704 (Jul 22, 2014)

Oh....I hunt multiple tracts each year, always have.  The main idea in my thoughts is that I see various trends, but I'm the same hunter.


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## elfiii (Jul 22, 2014)

Bucky T said:


> Am I and other hunters like myself who kill 4-5 does on a regular basis every season,  contributing to this problem as a whole,  or is it just contributing to the problem trying to accomplish this in deerless areas??



Look at the fawn recruitment rates. Eventually that 4-5 does is going to catch up with you. 




Bucky T said:


> At the moment, I feel there are quite a few folks who aren't seeing deer that want the laws changed to make their hunting lives better.................
> 
> "Well there ain't no deer here, change the laws dangit!!!"
> 
> Well do something about it without affecting every hunter in the state!!!!  These people need to talk to their neighbors, get info from them, share their info, do something about it!!!  Work with other hunters in the area!!



Yep. It's the only solution.


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## Bucky T (Jul 22, 2014)

But...

I'm not shooting all my does on one piece of property.

I stagger the kills out on different properties.

I understand that every doe killed is at least 1 fawn that won't be born the following year.  Heck, if that doe I shot lived 7 more years, that's at least 7 more deer, what if she had twins every year, that's hypothetically 14 deer I just took out..  Maybe a banner triplet year or two...  Adds up right?

"But if I shoot that doe before the rut, it won't matter cause she ain't been bred!!""  Sorry I had too........

I'm not a killer.  I'm a hunter.  I understand that a hunter must also be a conservationist to have deer to hunt in the future.

Hunters have to think about things like this.  They can't be mindless killers worried about bragging rights or numbers........

I personally believe the laws that are in place give hunters here in Ga many options they can use to make their own personal hunting very enjoyable.

Some guys may have too many deer, so they can do something about it..  Other guys may not have many at all, but that doesn't mean they have to shoot every doe they see........

Always love reading the comments that go along these lines, "Haven't seen a deer in a month, finally 2 does came in, and I shot them both.."  Where is the facepalm smilie at??

 

I'm outta here.  Have to go vote.

Have a good one fellas,

BuckyT


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## DeoVindice (Jul 22, 2014)

Bucky T said:


> But...
> 
> I'm not shooting all my does on one piece of property.
> 
> ...



Excellent post. I agree 100% with all of it. I wish more guys would take into consideration the conservation side of things. Unfortunately there are too many "killers out for bragging rights" and not enough true hunters these days. Every season I pass up at least 50 deer. I may shoot one or two. In 35 years of hunting, I have only killed 3 deer in a season one time. Every other year it was one or two. I understand if other guys have more mouths to feed and need to take 5 or more. I take what I need and nothing more. And I'm not patting myself on the back either. I'm only saying that I pass up 50+ deer every season. If I were slaughtering all the deer, every year, I would not be seeing nearly so many.


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## JB0704 (Jul 22, 2014)

DeoVindice said:


> If I were slaughtering all the deer, every year, I would not be seeing nearly so many.




I think that's something most would agree on.  I take the thought one step further, if anybody in an area, or any group of folks in an area, kill more than the herd replaces, everybody in that area sees less deer, regardless of how much restraint was shown by other individuals.


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## ted_BSR (Jul 22, 2014)

The DNR limits are meaningless. The tag system is basically an honor (or dishonor) system. We don't over harvest on our club, but the guys next to us hunt illegally (feeders in the northern zone), and are relentless killers. They brag about it. I am sure they are making up some of the numbers, but they are some big numbers. They just print out another tag every hunt. That way they can keep on killing every buck and doe they see. The head bragger claimed to have killed over 20 deer last season, 8 bucks.

Mr. Green Jeans has been driving down the county road between our tracts quite regularly lately.


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## DeoVindice (Jul 22, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> I think that's something most would agree on.  I take the thought one step further, if anybody in an area, or any group of folks in an area, kill more than the herd replaces, everybody in that area sees less deer, regardless of how much restraint was shown by other individuals.



And I agree. I can only do my part, and that includes talking about it with others in my clubs and our neighbors. I cannot force my opinions on anyone else so I simply talk with them, tell them my approach and why I do it my way, and hope for the best. It seems to me that most guys around my neck of the woods are of the same mindset. Conservation and proper management have come a long ways in the last 20 years. At least I'd like to think so. There are more and more of us out there thinking in terms of the overall herd. Hunters are much more educated on these things than in the days of old. Of course there are still bad apples in the bunch and there always will be, but with the knowledge we have acquired over a couple decades of research and study, I see no reason why we have the problems we have in some places. That's why I stick to the clubs that are managed properly. In my club we are only allowed 3 does each per season and most of us don't even shoot that many.


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## nickel back (Jul 23, 2014)

I see it this way,it as simple, the DOE population will not be an issue till it effects you are the area that you are hunting.

All is good till the issue at hand is at your door step, some hunters are smart enough to listen and see what is going on and are taking measures now to try and keep the doe pop up in the area they are hunting.

I say good luck, it will be hard, my reason for saying this, is there is to many hunters out there now that must justify why they hunt.

good luck to all this year, enjoy your time in the woods and stay safe.


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## shakey gizzard (Jul 23, 2014)

With the economy as bad as it is, I would guess the poaching numbers are out the roof. Nobody ever factors that into the equation! Time to get PROACTIVE!


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## T.P. (Jul 23, 2014)

shakey gizzard said:


> With the economy as bad as it is, I would guess the poaching numbers are out the roof. Nobody ever factors that into the equation! Time to get PROACTIVE!



The skin cleanser?


----------



## kmckinnie (Jul 23, 2014)

shakey gizzard said:


> With the economy as bad as it is, I would guess the poaching numbers are out the roof. Nobody ever factors that into the equation! Time to get PROACTIVE!


 We should give them food stamps instead of them killen our deer off the roads. Good idea.



T.P. said:


> The skin cleanser?



No, Its a term used to help the needy also.


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## NOYDB (Jul 23, 2014)

pro·ac·tive
prÅ�Ëˆaktiv/Submit
adjective
(of a person, policy, or action) creating or controlling a situation by causing something to happen rather than responding to it after it has happened.
"be proactive in identifying and preventing potential problems"
synonyms:	enterprising, take-charge, energetic, driven, bold, dynamic, motivated, go-ahead More
Origin

1930s: from pro-2 (denoting earlier occurrence), on the pattern of reactive .
Translate proactive to
Use over time for: proactive


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## bigblocktransam (Jul 23, 2014)

Bucky T said:


> Better than the govt putting its boot on your neck.



Ok, take the govt out of it. Deer hunting 365 days, no limits no laws just have at it.. We would have 0 deer..  Unfortunately we have to have government regulations when it comes I hunting.. Or it will be gone.  If perhaps that happened and the deer herd took a huge hit, everyone would complain! The first minute that the govt decided to make laws again, you'd have those individuals mad that the govt is shoving laws down there throats. There's nothing being shoved down anyone's throat.. Funny thing, it's called conservatism.. CONSERVE.. What is so hard about people understanding that word??? 
So funny how people claim to be conservative when it comes to politics.. But become rather liberal with there finger on the trigger. I don't think half the hunters have the guts to go an entire season without pulling the trigger.. the have the gotta kill something syndrome.


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## NOYDB (Jul 23, 2014)

Market hunting decimated the deer herd , individuals that wanted to profit off the common asset. If we eliminated gvmt they would be in action again , Obamerites are always present.


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## spurrs and racks (Jul 24, 2014)

"Haven't seen a deer in a month, finally 2 does came in, and I shot them both.."

you got to ask yourself why?


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## Bucky T (Jul 24, 2014)

bigblocktransam said:


> Ok, take the govt out of it. Deer hunting 365 days, no limits no laws just have at it.. We would have 0 deer..  Unfortunately we have to have government regulations when it comes I hunting.. Or it will be gone.  If perhaps that happened and the deer herd took a huge hit, everyone would complain! The first minute that the govt decided to make laws again, you'd have those individuals mad that the govt is shoving laws down there throats. There's nothing being shoved down anyone's throat.. Funny thing, it's called conservatism.. CONSERVE.. What is so hard about people understanding that word???
> So funny how people claim to be conservative when it comes to politics.. But become rather liberal with there finger on the trigger. I don't think half the hunters have the guts to go an entire season without pulling the trigger.. the have the gotta kill something syndrome.



I understand conservatism just fine.  

Go read my other posts.

BuckyT


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## Bucky T (Jul 24, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> "Haven't seen a deer in a month, finally 2 does came in, and I shot them both.."
> 
> you got to ask yourself why?



What?


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## Jeff Phillips (Jul 24, 2014)

Bucky T said:


> What?



There have been similar posts during the season on this forum.

I remember 1 a couple of years ago where a guy was hunting in Putnam County for a week of vacation in Nov. Saw 3 deer, a six, a spike, and a doe. He shot the doe.


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## Lilly001 (Jul 24, 2014)

Ok. We have pretty much concluded that individual hunters managing their harvest within the current bag limits is to erratic to do much good. 
The DNR closed a portion of the last season to antlerless harvest. Let us see how that plays out. 
I think that is the most effective and logistically easy way to go. Physical tags, or even phone in, would be expensive and of little value.
We need to limit the number of hunters who only take one or two does. That is where the bulk of the does harvest is from. Yet there are areas that can easily sustain that heavy harvest. 
DNR needs to better identify local herds and set more localized management. 
Or cut the doe harvest statewide for a year or two to let the herd catch up. It wouldn't kill us all to go a while without shooting a doe if it meant better times ahead.


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## Jeff Phillips (Jul 24, 2014)

Cut and paste from WRD. See the bold in red below.

Establishing Deer Harvest Guidelines For Your Property Or Hunting Club

Georgia is blessed with a healthy white-tailed deer population that provides diverse recreational opportunities and generates significant economic vitality. However, white-tailed deer can present a variety of management challenges as we strive to maintain a sustainable deer population within appropriate biological, ecological, and sociological limits.

While there is no statewide season and bag limit structure that will meet the desires of everyone, Georgia’s current regulations are designed to provide a framework for deer managers to use when establishing site-specific management strategies. Extreme variations in deer densities can exist within an area; therefore, responsible deer management by landowners and hunting clubs is essential – especially proper doe harvest rates. It is hunters’ responsibility to establish management objectives on the property they hunt.

When determining those objectives it is critical to consider property size, habitat conditions, and management of adjacent properties.* Establishing doe harvest per land area can be an effective tool. General guidelines for appropriate doe harvest rates across Georgia are: one doe per 75 acres to decrease density; one doe per 150 acres to stabilize density; or one doe per 200 acres to increase density.*

Keep in mind that these guidelines may not be applicable in all areas and are no substitute for objective population monitoring, which is critical to a successful deer management program.

Georgia hunters can get technical assistance for creating a management program from WRD’s professional biologists or a private biologist. However, biological recommendations are only as good as the information provided. Objective biological data result in better recommendations.

Effective deer management requires more work than simply killing deer. At a minimum, biological data should be kept on each deer harvested (e.g., sex, age, weight, antler measurements). In many instances, a harvest strategy that is more restrictive than the statewide framework may be needed. Either-sex days and bag limits are effective at protecting statewide and regional populations from over-harvest, but they cannot provide the same protection for every single property. This is why site-specific, property-level deer management is vital to successful deer management.

Ultimately, the solution rests in the hands of Georgia’s deer hunters and their willingness to practice voluntary restraint and responsible deer management.


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## GTHunter007 (Jul 24, 2014)

Lilly001 said:


> Ok. We have pretty much concluded that individual hunters managing their harvest within the current bag limits is to erratic to do much good.
> The DNR closed a portion of the last season to antlerless harvest. Let us see how that plays out.
> I think that is the most effective and logistically easy way to go. Physical tags, or even phone in, would be expensive and of little value.
> We need to limit the number of hunters who only take one or two does. That is where the bulk of the does harvest is from. Yet there are areas that can easily sustain that heavy harvest.
> ...



I disagree with your opening sentence.  I don't believe it is too erratic to do any good.  10 does is NOT where the problem is.  Limit guys to 3...and the problem does not go away.  Guarantee you.  The problem is the lack of "local" management for the problem areas.  And by "local" I mean doe dates for areas or counties.  

Hunters inside these problem areas (lets face it...WRD does not know what the local hunters know...they can't have eyes in every section of land) need to make the problem known.  Take it upon themselves to KNOW their surrounding land owners/lease holders.  If the neighbor is having the same problem...stands to reason they would be willing to hold off a year or two right?  But lets face it, it is sooo much easier to get on here and whine about the problem the "neighbors" are causing than to go look up property owners and have a sit down with area property managers and club presidents.  Again it is still easier to sling mud at WRD/DNR about their wide limits and long season than get up and be pro-active.  

Not sure it is a viable option, although IMO it is THE option, WRD needs to listen to and identify these problem areas.  Really not sure they consist of entire county sized areas, or more specific to certain groups of land within a county.  But this would need to be determined.  Identifying these problems and how widespread they are, MAYBE, certain areas can fall under more doe days like the N-GA mountain areas have.  Fact is, "OPPORTUNITY" to kill does makes more blood than a limit on paper.  By "opportunity" I mean legal days to shoot them.  

Your last statement about not shooting does a while (designated by the government) is a pipe dream.  The fact is the numbers of 20 years ago ARE NOT what legislation will allow.  We are in a state where so called "Deer Management" is dictated by farmers and insurance companies.  No where in there do you see "HUNTERS" having a voice, not one they listen to anyway.  Our "experience" in the woods...is the LAST thing on their minds.  If they could set limits that would eradicate the whitetail in GA without ticking off both left and right wing people...they would do it.  

The best thing you said was about last years closed December to doe harvest.  I agree whole heartedly this helped.  I don't know if it had the desired effect some hunters wanted, but WRD showed they were at least going to appease the vocal a little bit.  We have NO IDEA at this point exactly the effect this had on our herd.  Let it play out, let guys get in the stand and then actual reports will dictate if ANYTHING changed.  So far no one has shown patience and waited to see how this helped.


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## Jeff Phillips (Jul 24, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> Take it upon themselves to KNOW their surrounding land owners/lease holders.  If the neighbor is having the same problem...stands to reason they would be willing to hold off a year or two right?  But lets face it, it is sooo much easier to get on here and whine about the problem the "neighbors" are causing than to go look up property owners and have a sit down with area property managers and club presidents.  Again it is still easier to sling mud at WRD/DNR about their wide limits and long season than get up and be pro-active.



I've been there and done that. They said "Ya'll keep passing em and we'll keep shooting em". 8 guys on 180 acres can put the smack on the local herd...


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## Gadget (Jul 24, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> When determining those objectives it is critical to consider property size, habitat conditions, and management of adjacent properties.* Establishing doe harvest per land area can be an effective tool. General guidelines for appropriate doe harvest rates across Georgia are: one doe per 75 acres to decrease density; one doe per 150 acres to stabilize density; or one doe per 200 acres to increase density.*




This is spot on information by DNR. The property I manage is a prime example.

2000-2006 We had a hunter density of 50acres/member. Members were encouraged to shoot ALL does. year 2000 and prior we had an excellent herd. Harvest was at a ratio of at least 1 doe per 50-75 acres for several years (100+ does per year) and then began to drop drastically due to lack of opportunity. It was very easy to see the herd #'s drop year after year. 2006 was our lowest doe harvest in 10+yrs, with only about 20 being harvested on 5,000 acres with over 100 members gunning for em with virtually no limits.

2007 is when I began managing the property. Dropped the quota to 2 bucks/ 2doe per membership. Dropped memberships to establish 125acre per member. Our doe harvest has been 1 doe per 185 acres for the last 7 years. Took about 3yrs to really start seeing the results, now our herd has exploded and were back into the #'s of the 90's.

Here's our doe harvest starting 2007 thru 2013

2007=22
2008=19
2009=25
2010=16
2011=16
2012=20
2013=20
= 138 does in 7yrs on 3640acres
= 19.7 per year average
1 doe per 185 acres average over last 7yrs. As stated above our herd has exploded back to what it was the 90's.


Here's an example of prior harvest in the 2000-2006 time frame where were shooting 1 doe per 50acre. Prior to 2000 in the 90's is when people didn't shoot does, mostly just bucks so the doe harvest was really low in the 90's and therefore we had an excellent herd in the 90's. The key here is the steady lowering of harvest was due to lack of opportunity, NOT management!

2000= 100+ does
2001= 100+
2002= 80
2003= 60
2004= 40
2005= 30
2006= 20


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## mtr3333 (Jul 24, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Cut and paste from WRD. See the bold in red below.
> 
> Establishing Deer Harvest Guidelines For Your Property Or Hunting Club
> 
> ...




I would especially put this in red too.





> While there is no statewide season and bag limit structure that will meet the desires of everyone, Georgia’s current regulations are designed to provide a framework for deer managers to use when establishing site-specific management strategies. Extreme variations in deer densities can exist within an area; therefore, responsible deer management by landowners and hunting clubs is essential – especially proper doe harvest rates. It is hunters’ responsibility to establish management objectives on the property they hunt.


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## GTHunter007 (Jul 24, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> I've been there and done that. They said "Ya'll keep passing em and we'll keep shooting em". 8 guys on 180 acres can put the smack on the local herd...



Those 8 guys on 180 acres will put the same dent with a 2 doe limit as they would with the 10.  But if they destroyed that many deer...they weren't having a problem seeing deer.  Eventually they did...can you not get them to adjust once they saw the error of their ways?  

I understand what you are saying...but what is your solution?  DO you REALLY think the farmer/insurance driven limits want to fix that?


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## BornToHuntAndFish (Jul 24, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Cut and paste from WRD. See the bold in red below.
> 
> 
> http://www.eregulations.com/georgia...guidelines-for-your-property-or-hunting-club/
> ...



Good helpful guidelines well worth considering.



http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=732745 






















OR


http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=762895


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## elfiii (Jul 24, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> *Ultimately, the solution rests in the hands of Georgia’s deer hunters and their willingness to practice voluntary restraint and responsible deer management.*



An thas all there ares to it.


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## GTHunter007 (Jul 24, 2014)

Maybe the solution is not legislative.  Maybe it is education.  Would money not be well spent to put together a packet, detailing experiences each hunter could try to associate their season with and then give solutions and reasonings for what they see?  We have a database of licensed hunters in the state, we could reach each and every one of them in a mass paper mailing detailing this information.  We could strike off all the GON forum members because everyone here already does it the right way.  But this way we could reach the "neighbors".

Seriously...education is the issue...that is apparent to me.  So lets educate everyone or at least GIVE them the data in which to make the right decisions.  The number of hunters out there who don't pic up a GON magazine or flip through the regulations is probably way higher than anyone wants to admit.  At least if you put a package in their mail box they will have it to flip through.  And who knows, even if a father isn't interested, his kids could read it and start to change their mindset.


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## Gadget (Jul 24, 2014)

Don't think there's much hope in some areas with small tracts, too many people just don't care and not willing to conserve, legislation is probably the only way to make a difference. For those like us with a large tract we can and have made a huge difference in our herd. I've also gone around and talked with the adjoining land owners and that's made a difference too. Funny though I've never had one club manager or land owner come to me to talk about conservation and management, it's been me who has approached all of them! In some cases it was fruitless but in most cases it made a difference so it was worth while.


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## Milkman (Jul 24, 2014)

As I have stated above I know that basically we as hunters are what caused the lower numbers of deer today. 

One thing that causes the misconception of there being too many does on a property is the fact of the way does travel. During the fall we usually only see bucks as single deer. However does (antlerless deer) will sometimes be in family groups of 4, or 5 or more. I think this sometimes leads to a hunter shooting more than he really would have if it had been all single deer.


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## NOYDB (Jul 24, 2014)

Need apps for everyone's smart phones. Shoot, don't shoot? just check your phone.


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## Jeff Phillips (Jul 24, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> Maybe the solution is not legislative.  Maybe it is education.



I agree with your post. So do the guys at WRD.

Several of us on here were participants in the planning and input for the new 10 year plans. I was on the Piedmont Committee. That is where the data posted earlier in this thread came from.

The guys at WRD understand the need to get this information out and they are working on it.

The way I look at it is it took a long time to convince deer hunters to start killing does and now that filling the freezer has become the norm it will take a long time to get them under control.


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## spurrs and racks (Jul 24, 2014)

please.... at a glance..... how many hunters do you know are killing their complete limit, filling their freezer, living on deer meat.

I will go on and answer for me...........none


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## Milkman (Jul 24, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> please.... at a glance..... how many hunters do you know are killing their complete limit, filling their freezer, living on deer meat.
> 
> I will go on and answer for me...........none





Agreed, only a very small percentage take 10-12 deer. But the point we are attempting to make is that there are places in Ga. that cant support the removal of even 1 doe.


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## spurrs and racks (Jul 24, 2014)

But the point we are attempting to make is that there are places in Ga. that can’t support the removal of even 1 doe. 

That’s crazy talk.


And my point is..... That people are running scared of the limit in print. It is that way for a reason. Don't start calling out data with no substance. The deer herd in this state is heathy and there are plenty of deer. I don't know a single property that is even close to not having any deer.

I worked with Beaver Creek Farms in Crawford County for many years and I promise you with all that is holy they tried to kill every doe they saw for many years. They put a dent in them no doubt. However, there are as many deer on that property now as there have ever been. And, now it is high fenced.

There has been a lot of opinion in this thread and very little fact. Go to the meetings; voice your opinion, maybe the limit will change. I highly doubt it.

In close, this state is in a "state wide program" and the end goal is a healthy herd with plenty of deer, and plenty of big deer. In short, they are trying to please everybody and keep the moneys up.
They tell you in the game laws if you don't like what you see, make you a club rule. But, I have been in this business a long time. Our deer herd is fine. There is NO place outside of high fenced property where the buck to doe ratio is even close to 1/1 much less more bucks to does. A year of "no doe killing" is insane and no solution to a problem that is in the most part, a figment of most imagination.

See you in forsyth at the meetings and please don’t stand up and say you are killing our deer herd. It’s not true and you just look foolish.

S&R


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## Jeff Phillips (Jul 24, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> It’s not true and you just look foolish.
> 
> S&R



You still havn't looked at the data have you...


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## spurrs and racks (Jul 24, 2014)

Certainly, the deer herd is lower. It is part of the plan. Go to the public events and voice your opinion.

What most people don't know is the number of deer killed on permits every year nor the number killed on our roadways. If they new these numbers there would not be so much crying.

Our DNR is doing a great job. like it or not. What you need to do to help your deer herd is hunt hogs.....year around.

And kill every Yote you see. On a side note, I just can't shoot cats.

s&r


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## elfiii (Jul 24, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> Our deer herd is fine.



Maybe where you are the deer herd is fine but there are many areas in our state especially in the Piedmont,  Mountain, and Ridge and Valley physiographic regions where the deer herd is in big trouble. The biologists at WRD agree which is why you saw the reinstatement of statewide either sex days last year and this year as well. Once the new 10 year deer management plan is finalized and the general assembly passes the enabling legislation you are likely to see further restriction of either sex days at the county level for some counties.

The population numbers in some parts of the state are experiencing rapid decline because of too much predation by hunters and natural predators and a statewide declining fawn recruitment rate. The candle is being burned at both ends. Even if you aren't having population problems yet the declining fawn recruitment rate guarantees you will at some point in the future.

The name of the game is simple. Contact the WRD wildlife biologist for your county, have them come do a population assessment, formulate a management plan for you and then you stick with the management plan.

The other key is indeed education but for education to take place you need a capable teacher and a willing student. This state is blessed with capable teachers. I'm not so sure about the students.


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## triton196 (Jul 25, 2014)

i have 2 1000 acre leases. one has alot more deer than the other and the reason is one has alot of clearcut and thicket and the other is mature timber. years ago they were the opposite and so was the deer numbers. moral of the story is morehicket more deer. i can say i have noticed alot less fawns since the coyotes have picked up but i live to far away to trap and i kill em if  i see em.


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## nickel back (Jul 25, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> Our deer herd is fine.
> 
> S&R



......and again I say this.

 I see it this way,it as simple, the DOE population will not be an issue till it effects you are the area that you are hunting.

All is good till the issue at hand is at your door step, some hunters are smart enough to listen and see what is going on and are taking measures now to try and keep the doe pop up in the area they are hunting.

I say good luck, it will be hard, my reason for saying this, is there is to many hunters out there now that must justify why they hunt.

good luck to all this year, enjoy your time in the woods and stay safe.


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## Joe Brandon (Jul 25, 2014)

T.P. said:


> I'm not understanding how you killed does and increased the buck population.


 Well let me simplify this for ya just a bit. If you have too many does, you wont see as many bucks because they dont have to roam as much to get the does. If you 5 does to mate with right in front of you why would you want to travel? So thinning out the does brings the bucks out more. Makes em walk a little farther for it. Not that it nec increases the population but makes them more visable.


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## nickel back (Jul 25, 2014)

Joe Brandon said:


> Well let me simplify this for ya just a bit. If you have too many does, you wont see as many bucks because they dont have to roam as much to get the does. If you 5 does to mate with right in front of you why would you want to travel? So thinning out the does brings the bucks out more. Makes em walk a little farther for it. Not that it nec increases the population but makes them more visable.



yep and I would make my home where the little ladies are, why would I stay where there are less ladies to chase?


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## Bucky T (Jul 25, 2014)

elfiii said:


> Maybe where you are the deer herd is fine but there are many areas in our state especially in the Piedmont,  Mountain, and Ridge and Valley physiographic regions where the deer herd is in big trouble. The biologists at WRD agree which is why you saw the reinstatement of statewide either sex days last year and this year as well. Once the new 10 year deer management plan is finalized and the general assembly passes the enabling legislation you are likely to see further restriction of either sex days at the county level for some counties.
> 
> The population numbers in some parts of the state are experiencing rapid decline because of too much predation by hunters and natural predators and a statewide declining fawn recruitment rate. The candle is being burned at both ends. Even if you aren't having population problems yet the declining fawn recruitment rate guarantees you will at some point in the future.
> 
> ...



And the areas you mentioned are full of national forest as well.

No cutting.................... Unless there is a pine beetle outbreak..  But that is normally sporadic and concentrated..

Thanks Bill Clinton......

It really stinks that these National Forest can't be managed properly for wildlife because of this....


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## Milkman (Aug 2, 2014)

So now we are all in agreement....... its bucks only for the upcoming season, right ??


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## six (Aug 2, 2014)

If I kill a buck or a doe it will be with the truck.


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## elfiii (Aug 3, 2014)

Milkman said:


> So now we are all in agreement....... its bucks only for the upcoming season, right ??



It will be on my 200 acres.


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## GTHunter007 (Aug 3, 2014)

Milkman said:


> So now we are all in agreement....... its bucks only for the upcoming season, right ??



Not a chance on my property...


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## PappyHoel (Aug 3, 2014)

45 members x 4 deer limit on 1900 acres.


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## kmckinnie (Aug 3, 2014)

I got does & I got bucks, I'm in the bow challenge & I'm killen 2 maybe 3 does & 2 bucks if I can. Quitman county has a good deer heard.  Just saying. If the state goes to more bow, longer season for bow, 6 weeks of gun we would not be having this discussion. 
Do ya'll agree!!!! More Bow!!! Gun hunters kill deer.


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## JimD (Aug 3, 2014)

Where I'm hunting in Marion County we have 3-4 bucks on camera for every doe so for the second year in a row we will not shoot does. This land was part of a big club where they killed too many does in the past.


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## quality hunter (Aug 3, 2014)

Seeing a bunch of does w no fawns on my 200 acres in Troup. So no does for me. Can't figure it coyotes are not that bad.


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## PappyHoel (Aug 4, 2014)

PappyHoel said:


> 45 members x 4 deer limit on 1900 acres.



We are set to take 180 deer this year on 1900 acres.


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## Milkman (Aug 4, 2014)

PappyHoel said:


> We are set to take 180 deer this year on 1900 acres.



1900 acres = 3 square miles.   The math show that you hope to remove 60 deer per square mile, correct? 

What is your estimate of how many deer will be left at the end of the season?


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## Lilly001 (Aug 4, 2014)

Do any of you guys with contacts with DNR know what the estimated impact of last years closure of December to Antlered only had?
It looks like that technique is what we will be relying on in the future. So it would be nice to know it's impact.


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## PappyHoel (Aug 4, 2014)

Milkman said:


> 1900 acres = 3 square miles.   The math show that you hope to remove 60 deer per square mile, correct?
> 
> What is your estimate of how many deer will be left at the end of the season?



Zero the land at max holds 17-20 deer per square mile.  Excellent management strategy huh...


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## Jeff Phillips (Aug 4, 2014)

Lilly001 said:


> Do any of you guys with contacts with DNR know what the estimated impact of last years closure of December to Antlered only had?
> It looks like that technique is what we will be relying on in the future. So it would be nice to know it's impact.



http://www.georgiawildlife.com/site...er_resources/Deer Harvest Summary 2013-14.pdf

No impact. Does still made up 63% of the kill.

325000 hunters killed 454000 deer from a herd that is said to be 900000 and has a recruitment rate of .4.

Based on the experiment last year, E/S days will have to be significantly reduced to see an impact.


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## Milkman (Aug 4, 2014)

PappyHoel said:


> Zero the land at max holds 17-20 deer per square mile.  Excellent management strategy huh...



Are the decision makers on your land Democrats?  If so, it makes perfect sense.


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## JB0704 (Aug 4, 2014)

PappyHoel said:


> Zero the land at max holds 17-20 deer per square mile.  Excellent management strategy huh...



With that many people on that amount of land.....you may be better off hunting WMA's anyway.


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## GTHunter007 (Aug 4, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> http://www.georgiawildlife.com/site...er_resources/Deer Harvest Summary 2013-14.pdf
> 
> No impact. Does still made up 63% of the kill.
> 
> ...



Based on those numbers used...no way they are correct.  Either the herd is larger than they think, or the recruitment rate is higher.  This wouldn't be a slow killing off of the herd...this would be extinction in a year or two.  And that hasn't happened.  Factor in nuisance permits and we are ot of deer.  Something is wrong with the numbers because the results observed throughout the majority of the state do not reflect that kill off.  If so the surveys would not have had the high percentage of people satisfied with the deer.


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## JB0704 (Aug 4, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> Based on those numbers used...no way they are correct.  Either the herd is larger than they think, or the recruitment rate is higher.  This wouldn't be a slow killing off of the herd...this would be extinction in a year or two.  And that hasn't happened.  Factor in nuisance permits and we are ot of deer.  Something is wrong with the numbers because the results observed throughout the majority of the state do not reflect that kill off.  If so the surveys would not have had the high percentage of people satisfied with the deer.



So their stats are wrong, but their surveys are right?


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## Lowjack (Aug 4, 2014)

Everytime you shoot a doe you are killing 15-20 deers, just a thought.


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## PappyHoel (Aug 4, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> With that many people on that amount of land.....you may be better off hunting WMA's anyway.



You may be right.  However there were very few deer killed and it wasn't lack of seeing them.  We have high turn over in the club but if I'm right we will have many more "hunters" this yr.  

Management is afraid to reduce club membership because they don't want the dues to be $1500 a year.  I'm an oddity and I'm willing to pay for that.  I'm also willing to pay more.  It's a double edge sword.  

However I'm not sure you can say you are 'managing' anything with the membership numbers we carry.  I'm afraid we are fooling ourselves to keep dues low.


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## elfiii (Aug 4, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> Based on those numbers used...no way they are correct.  Either the herd is larger than they think, or the recruitment rate is higher.  This wouldn't be a slow killing off of the herd...this would be extinction in a year or two.  And that hasn't happened.  Factor in nuisance permits and we are ot of deer.  Something is wrong with the numbers because the results observed throughout the majority of the state do not reflect that kill off.  If so the surveys would not have had the high percentage of people satisfied with the deer.



Ummm, no they aren't wrong. Ask CKillmaster or JBowers to explain the numbers to you.


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## JBowers (Aug 4, 2014)

The harvest estimate is within +2% and the annual pre-hunt popualtion etimate is a minimum estimate (sort of a worst case scenario estimate).

Thus, as commented, the PHP is certainly much greater than 900,000.

While this is somewhat a simplfied example, it works for demonstration purposes:  Based on a harvest of about 454,000, the PHP would have been in the range of about 1.135 million to 1.297 million.


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## GTHunter007 (Aug 4, 2014)

elfiii said:


> Ummm, no they aren't wrong. Ask CKillmaster or JBowers to explain the numbers to you.



Then they are not including some sort of data at 900k.  That or 900k is taken when does are pregnant or newborns are not counted.  Otherwise...the numbers do not work.  You can't take 450k from 900k and not be erased in 2 seasons.  Not with a .4 success rate for fawns.  So one or more of the numbers are a bit misleading.  

I assume 900k is either a guess after the hunting season has ended or without newborn fawns.  With that assumption the data could be right.  Or closer anyway.


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## GTHunter007 (Aug 4, 2014)

JBowers said:


> The harvest estimate is within +2% and the annual pre-hunt popualtion etimate is a minimum estimate (sort of a worst case scenario estimate).
> 
> Thus, as commented, the PHP is certainly much greater than 900,000.
> 
> While this is somewhat a simplfied example, it works for demonstration purposes:  Based on a harvest of about 454,000, the PHP would have been in the range of about 1.135 million to 1.297 million.


These two estimates...PHP estimate, and the harvest estimate are based on what?  

You telling me that we get our estimated herd numbers based on what people kill?  So in order to find out how many deer we think are walking around the state of GA going into this 2014 hunting season...we have to wait until the harvest estimates are in?    Does that mean we have a "percentage" of the herd we believe get killed every season?  Or does that mean we stick with an estimated hunter success rate to calculate?  A bunch of spots left to guessing leaves plenty of room for error IMO.


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## Throwback (Aug 4, 2014)

quality hunter said:


> Limits too high and a ton of hunters skin there own deer so I know the numbers are not accurate. Why can't Georgia be like the Midwest? You wonder why a ton of people go there every year. Unless you have a ton of money or own your own land the hunting in Georgia is mediocre at best!





If georgia deer hunting is so poor why do so many people come HERE to hunt?


What state in the southeast has more P&Y and B&C than georgia?


T


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## Milkman (Aug 4, 2014)

quality hunter said:


> Limits too high and a ton of hunters skin there own deer so I know the numbers are not accurate. Why can't Georgia be like the Midwest? You wonder why a ton of people go there every year. Unless you have a ton of money or own your own land the hunting in Georgia is mediocre at best!



What does the midwest statement mean ??


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## JBowers (Aug 4, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> These two estimates...PHP estimate, and the harvest estimate are based on what?



Based on scientific data collected annually. A brief explanation of the method to calculate harvest estimates can be read here: http://www.georgiawildlife.com/node/3335

The PHP is short for pre-hunt population. It also is an estimate. I am going to preclude any in-depth explanation b/c it has been explained time & again in different threads. Anyhow, this estimate is generated through several different computer models using scientific data on several population parameters collected annually, including the harvest data.

We are not looking for precision, which is unattainable at a cost effective level, but are monitoring several population parameters as indices for changes in a population.


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## GTHunter007 (Aug 4, 2014)

JBowers said:


> Based on scientific data collected annually. A brief explanation of the method to calculate harvest estimates can be read here: http://www.georgiawildlife.com/node/3335
> 
> The PHP is short for pre-hunt population. It also is an estimate. I am going to preclude any in-depth explanation b/c it has been explained time & again in different threads. Anyhow, this estimate is generated through several different computer models using scientific data on several population parameters collected annually, including the harvest data.
> 
> We are not looking for precision, which is unattainable at a cost effective level, but are monitoring several population parameters as indices for changes in a population.




Roger that.  

Question then, with the current models and numbers gathered over the past 10 years, do the people in the know believe the state will run out of deer if something does not change or do they feel the up roar is expected to be heard from certain pockets all over the state?  

The survey appears to show people are pretty satisfied across all types of people.  Is the deer are vanishing outcry we see on GON just like in Washington DC where the few who cry the loudest get their way or is there relevance to the idea the state's population will crash on its current path?  

Was the December break expected to make the "hunting experience" better for people or was it just aimed to shut people up and make them think they would be helped?

Is there anywhere I can find a year over year compilation of the PHP data over the last however many years?  I can't find that info anywhere on DNR's web site.


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## Throwback (Aug 4, 2014)

I remember when we went from a 3 deer limit to a 5 deer limit people said it was the end of the deer herd.  

Same thing when crossbows were legalized --everyone was gonna buy a crossbow and slaughter the deer in archery season and the here would be decimated by opening day of rifle season


T


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## C.Killmaster (Aug 5, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> Roger that.
> 
> Question then, with the current models and numbers gathered over the past 10 years, do the people in the know believe the state will run out of deer if something does not change or do they feel the up roar is expected to be heard from certain pockets all over the state?
> 
> ...



There are several figures in the draft Deer Management Plan that show the estimates over time:
http://www.georgiawildlife.com/Hunting/Meetings

The model is a reverse accounting model based on harvest to produce a minimum estimate to monitor population trends.  Thus, the true population is always higher than the estimate.  The estimate itself is relatively meaningless, you could erase the numbers and just look at the trend.

Most hunters are satisfied, but I don't think that those complaining about very low deer sightings are unfounded either.  There are increasingly more areas that have been over-harvested as a result of increasing hunter density.  We're seeing a greater distinction between properties with high versus low deer populations than ever before.  That's the root of the issue.  

We are not in any danger of wiping out the population any time soon, but the current goal is to prevent any further decreases and slightly increase in some areas.  The mountains are the only area with a region-wide unsatisfactory population.  The recent reduction in either-sex days was a move to stabilize the population by slightly decreasing doe harvest.  Doe harvest this coming season will have bearing on future regulations working towards the deer density goals outlined in the plan.


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## GTHunter007 (Aug 5, 2014)

C.Killmaster said:


> There are several figures in the draft Deer Management Plan that show the estimates over time:
> http://www.georgiawildlife.com/Hunting/Meetings
> 
> _The model is a reverse accounting model based on harvest to produce a minimum estimate to monitor population trends._  Thus, the true population is always higher than the estimate.  The estimate itself is relatively meaningless, you could erase the numbers and just look at the trend.
> ...



Perfectly clear.  Thanks.  The goal is to monitor trends, not hit a number.  Makes a huge difference when understanding the plan.  

It seems the plan is a "reactive" one as opposed to pro-active.  What if this next 10 year plan is wrong...why the looong drawn out "test" run?  

Since 2001 we have a lot of data in order to identify trends and changes.  WHat are the changes in harvest numbers and doe percentage numbers attributed to back in 2003-2006 and why the slight decrease in numbers in 2011 despite the drastic drop in hunter numbers?  

Is there a percentage of the harvest numbers we would be shooting for as far as does go?  It seems to hover around 60%, our totals are sustainable for the state as a whole...would there be a target number or will the focus be more on specific management of problem areas?  Within the current system and limits?


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## justus3131 (Aug 5, 2014)

*deer harvesting*

I agree with you entirely.  There is no need in killing your limit of deer, and the only reason we have this limit is the insurance lobby
Our club has a rule that no does are taken after 11/1 each year, and while there is no set club rule, no member would harvest more than two does a season.  I feel very satisfied to take one doe and one buck per year, but if I have the chance to take two trophy bucks, I will.   Our club also has a club imposed rule of 8 points or better, and no young 8 pointers allowed.  
Luckily, there are only 6 members in our club, and we can agree on these rules.   I know the larger the club the harder to manage your deer population.  If you want to continue to see deer on your hunts you must self manage or you wind up sitting for hours in a stand without ever seeing a deer.


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## elfiii (Aug 5, 2014)

justus3131 said:


> I agree with you entirely.  There is no need in killing your limit of deer, and the only reason we have this limit is the insurance lobby



Show us your proof.


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## C.Killmaster (Aug 5, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> Perfectly clear.  Thanks.  The goal is to monitor trends, not hit a number.  Makes a huge difference when understanding the plan.
> 
> It seems the plan is a "reactive" one as opposed to pro-active.  What if this next 10 year plan is wrong...why the looong drawn out "test" run?
> 
> ...



The plan is adaptive, not reactive or proactive, with respect to deer density.  Within the scope of the plan over the next 10 years, harvest regulations will be adjusted accordingly to meet/maintain those stated goals.

2003-2006 had a substantial decrease  in hunter numbers, translating also to a decrease in harvest, for a couple of reasons.  That time period fell right before the economy tanked and construction of homes peaked.  There appears to be a strong negative correlation between housing starts and hunter numbers.  Presumably because most hunters are blue collar folks and they were too busy with work to hunt at that time.  The other was a hunter number calculation artifact when we switched to a year-round hunting license.  It took a couple of years to smooth out the bumps on that one.

2011 only had a 3.5% decrease in hunter numbers, which is fairly normal fluctuation.  Not sure what your asking for on this one.  Harvest rate can vary quite a bit, but it's difficult, sometimes impossible, to pinpoint an exact cause.  That metric is influenced by deer density, weather, mast crop, and hunter behavior. 

Doe harvest as a percentage of the total harvest has been in excess of 60% for over a decade.  This was one major factor in reducing the deer population which was a stated goal in the previous 10-year plan.  To achieve the current goal of a slight increase and stabilization of the population, that percentage needs to head back towards 55%; perhaps lower if recruitment declines further.


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## Jeff Phillips (Aug 6, 2014)

C.Killmaster said:


> Doe harvest as a percentage of the total harvest has been in excess of 60% for over a decade.  This was one major factor in reducing the deer population which was a stated goal in the previous 10-year plan.  To achieve the current goal of a slight increase and stabilization of the population, that percentage needs to head back towards 55%; perhaps lower if recruitment declines further.



Are the current studies confirming the .40 recruitment?


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## GTHunter007 (Aug 6, 2014)

C.Killmaster said:


> The plan is adaptive, not reactive or proactive, with respect to deer density.  Within the scope of the plan over the next 10 years, harvest regulations will be adjusted accordingly to meet/maintain those stated goals.
> 
> 2003-2006 had a substantial decrease  in hunter numbers, translating also to a decrease in harvest, for a couple of reasons.  That time period fell right before the economy tanked and construction of homes peaked.  There appears to be a strong negative correlation between housing starts and hunter numbers.  Presumably because most hunters are blue collar folks and they were too busy with work to hunt at that time.  The other was a hunter number calculation artifact when we switched to a year-round hunting license.  It took a couple of years to smooth out the bumps on that one.
> 
> ...



Mistake on my part in 2011...I charted the numbers and mistakenly put in 201k instead of 301k for hunter numbers.  

Back when our current plan was made, was 60% a target number for does to reduce the population or has the 60% number been a learned result of that plan?? 

 Am I safe in assuming results from the 25 day reduction of doe days last December (2013-2014 season) will not show up until 2015 when the hunter surveys are conducted and tabulated?  If so, are we looking for a certain percentage jump in PHP or is this a learning number and we have no idea really what to expect?

I realize we know already from the surveys this year the numbers of harvest stayed consistent, but as far as population goes, we won't be able to calculate that change until the following year.  Can we even really learn if the 25 days helped since we had an increase in hunter numbers as well as a higher success rate?  I also notice the buck harvest was higher last year than any other year since 2003.  Is this a significant note?


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## spurrs and racks (Aug 6, 2014)

*the 25 day reduction of doe days last December*

There's nobody in my camp after thanksgiving.

I am not real sure the reduction of doe days between thanksgiving and christmas is going to do much at all.


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## C.Killmaster (Aug 6, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Are the current studies confirming the .40 recruitment?



Our most current statewide recruitment estimate is 0.53; the record low was 0.51.  These are average recruitment rates, an individual property may range from 0.25 to 1.5 fawns per doe.


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## C.Killmaster (Aug 6, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> Mistake on my part in 2011...I charted the numbers and mistakenly put in 201k instead of 301k for hunter numbers.
> 
> Back when our current plan was made, was 60% a target number for does to reduce the population or has the 60% number been a learned result of that plan??
> 
> ...



Not specifically 60%, the target back then was to exceed 50% and increase the overall doe harvest.  Percent does is just one metric and it largely depends on the total harvest. 

The hunter surveys have been completed for this past season:
http://www.georgiawildlife.com/site...er_resources/Deer Harvest Summary 2013-14.pdf
For this first season, there was no effect of the reduced days.  The overall increase this past season in harvest of both bucks and does was attributed to an increase in hunter numbers and an increase in hunter success.  Since recruitment was not abnormally high in the couple of years prior, I would attribute this to ideal weather conditions and mast crop for good deer movement and low harvest the year prior.  The decreased harvest the previous year was likely the result of poorer hunting conditions and a short spike in recruitment in 2010.


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## GTHunter007 (Aug 6, 2014)

C.Killmaster said:


> Not specifically 60%, the target back then was to exceed 50% and increase the overall doe harvest.  Percent does is just one metric and it largely depends on the total harvest.
> 
> The hunter surveys have been completed for this past season:
> http://www.georgiawildlife.com/site...er_resources/Deer Harvest Summary 2013-14.pdf
> For this first season, there was no effect of the reduced days.  The overall increase this past season in harvest of both bucks and does was attributed to an increase in hunter numbers and an increase in hunter success.  Since recruitment was not abnormally high in the couple of years prior, I would attribute this to ideal weather conditions and mast crop for good deer movement and low harvest the year prior.  The decreased harvest the previous year was likely the result of poorer hunting conditions and a short spike in recruitment in 2010.



I understand the survey was already done...what I am asking is from that can we deduce any sort of impact was made with the 25 doe days added?  Or do we have to wait until next year when the surveys are done again for this upcoming season, to calculate the PHP for right now, pre-2014 season?  

It just feels backwards to me.  Not saying it is wrong, just how it adds up in my head.  Seeing how many you harvested in order to figure out how many you started with.  I understand this is how we read trends and figure out what is working and what is not.  It is reactive.  A problem has to arise, based on harvest numbers as they ARE the most important variable to the calculation, before a change would come.  Possibly too late.  One year of EHD outbreak, have we put the entire state's herd at risk?  Or would we even know until it was too late?  Just a thought that goes through my head.

Is this same method how property owners should manage?


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## C.Killmaster (Aug 6, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> I understand the survey was already done...what I am asking is from that can we deduce any sort of impact was made with the 25 doe days added?  Or do we have to wait until next year when the surveys are done again for this upcoming season, to calculate the PHP for right now, pre-2014 season?
> 
> It just feels backwards to me.  Not saying it is wrong, just how it adds up in my head.  Seeing how many you harvested in order to figure out how many you started with.  I understand this is how we read trends and figure out what is working and what is not.  It is reactive.  A problem has to arise, based on harvest numbers as they ARE the most important variable to the calculation, before a change would come.  Possibly too late.  One year of EHD outbreak, have we put the entire state's herd at risk?  Or would we even know until it was too late?  Just a thought that goes through my head.
> 
> Is this same method how property owners should manage?



Okay, I see where you're going.  The population model is useful in looking a long-term population trends, but is a relatively unimportant tool for deer management.  Knowing, or rather estimating, the number of deer on the landscape is not really that valuable to managing deer.  It's value is in presenting a large number of variables together into one figure that's more easily digested by the general public.  Specifically to your question, we have to have the harvest figures from a given season to estimate the pre-hunt population for that same season.  I can also use the model to predict the pre-hunt population for the next season, but I have very little faith in that estimate since fawn recruitment can't be assessed until much later. 

Most deer population vital statistics are, as you alluded, reactive since they are harvest based and paint a picture of the conditions in previous seasons.  With regard to major issues, like a severe EHD outbreak, we do have the ability to be proactive as acute mortality events occur just prior to deer season and most folks are quick to report loads of dead deer to DNR.  We are also developing new methods that give us more proactive capability, such as large-scale camera surveys.  Another is real-time harvest reporting, an action item in the draft deer plan.


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## GTHunter007 (Aug 6, 2014)

C.Killmaster said:


> Okay, I see where you're going.  The population model is useful in looking a long-term population trends, but is a relatively unimportant tool for deer management.  Knowing, or rather estimating, the number of deer on the landscape is not really that valuable to managing deer.  It's value is in presenting a large number of variables together into one figure that's more easily digested by the general public.  Specifically to your question, we have to have the harvest figures from a given season to estimate the pre-hunt population for that same season.  I can also use the model to predict the pre-hunt population for the next season, but I have very little faith in that estimate since fawn recruitment can't be assessed until much later.
> 
> Most deer population vital statistics are, as you alluded, reactive since they are harvest based and paint a picture of the conditions in previous seasons.  With regard to major issues, like a severe EHD outbreak, we do have the ability to be proactive as acute mortality events occur just prior to deer season and most folks are quick to report loads of dead deer to DNR.  We are also developing new methods that give us more proactive capability, such as large-scale camera surveys.  Another is real-time harvest reporting, an action item in the draft deer plan.



With the rise of trail cam usage, would it be a difficult (feasible) task to have clubs or land owners supply data for given geographic regions to add another variable to the equation?  Personally, if you told me you wanted 1 camera per 100 acres, run for two weeks, I would be more than willing to pay my way to provide you that data.


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## C.Killmaster (Aug 6, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> With the rise of trail cam usage, would it be a difficult (feasible) task to have clubs or land owners supply data for given geographic regions to add another variable to the equation?  Personally, if you told me you wanted 1 camera per 100 acres, run for two weeks, I would be more than willing to pay my way to provide you that data.



We're in the process of developing a new methodology for camera surveys that will include photo analysis software tied to a central database.  We're envisioning a system where an individual could easily analyze the photos with the software that would then crunch the numbers and provide population statistics, such as recruitment and relative abundance, back to the individual and to the department.  However, we still have several years of research ahead to develop the methodology.


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## PappyHoel (Aug 6, 2014)

Good informative thread I appreciate y'all's input killmaster and mr bowers.


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## GTHunter007 (Aug 6, 2014)

C.Killmaster said:


> We're in the process of developing a new methodology for camera surveys that will include photo analysis software tied to a central database.  We're envisioning a system where an individual could easily analyze the photos with the software that would then crunch the numbers and provide population statistics, such as recruitment and relative abundance, back to the individual and to the department.  However, we still have several years of research ahead to develop the methodology.



This have anything to do with the WISE program?


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## C.Killmaster (Aug 6, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> This have anything to do with the WISE program?



Nope


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## JBowers (Aug 6, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> One year of EHD outbreak, have we put the entire state's herd at risk?  Or would we even know until it was too late?  Just a thought that goes through my head.



With respect to EHD, we are fortunate that our southern deer have fairly high "resistance" or "immunity", per se, from its virulent affects. That is, why they are likely to get sick and suffer some ill effects they are likely to survive and recover. That is, it is somewhat rare that we suffer the massive die-offs incurred by northern deer strains. In a nutshell, our southern strain deer evolved in the presence of this virus and built up immunities over the eons. Thus, they are genetically stronger than northern deer with respect to EHD.

Hence, one example among many of the darn good reasons for prohibiting importation and the dangers of moving deer. It's not antler characteristics that are being moved but a complete biological package that is largely unknown including viruses, bacteria, weakened immunities and a host of other potentially undesired outcomes!


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## shakey gizzard (Aug 7, 2014)

JBowers said:


> With respect to EHD, we are fortunate that our southern deer have fairly high "resistance" or "immunity", per se, from its virulent affects. That is, why they are likely to get sick and suffer some ill effects they are likely to survive and recover. That is, it is somewhat rare that we suffer the massive die-offs incurred by northern deer strains. In a nutshell, our southern strain deer evolved in the presence of this virus and built up immunities over the eons. Thus, they are genetically stronger than northern deer with respect to EHD.
> 
> Hence, one example among many of the darn good reasons for prohibiting importation and the dangers of moving deer. It's not antler characteristics that are being moved but a complete biological package that is largely unknown including viruses, bacteria, weakened immunities and a host of other potentially undesired outcomes!



Good post!


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## GTHunter007 (Aug 7, 2014)

JBowers said:


> With respect to EHD, we are fortunate that our southern deer have fairly high "resistance" or "immunity", per se, from its virulent affects. That is, why they are likely to get sick and suffer some ill effects they are likely to survive and recover. That is, it is somewhat rare that we suffer the massive die-offs incurred by northern deer strains. In a nutshell, our southern strain deer evolved in the presence of this virus and built up immunities over the eons. Thus, they are genetically stronger than northern deer with respect to EHD.
> 
> Hence, one example among many of the darn good reasons for prohibiting importation and the dangers of moving deer. It's not antler characteristics that are being moved but a complete biological package that is largely unknown including viruses, bacteria, weakened immunities and a host of other potentially undesired outcomes!



For the sake of argument...isn't the herd in GA an example of "moving deer" success?  Bringing the different biological packages together to form that genetically stronger animal?


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## C.Killmaster (Aug 7, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> For the sake of argument...isn't the herd in GA an example of "moving deer" success?  Bringing the different biological packages together to form that genetically stronger animal?



Funny you should bring that up.  We've just recently discovered that deer that were imported from Wisconsin 50+ years ago brought along with them a little disease called cranial abscess.  Through some of our very recent cooperative research with UGA, we determined that all the areas with this disease were stocked from Wisconsin.  Further, it was traced back directly to the stocking source in Wisconsin.  Areas that have it are losing a substantial percentage of their mature bucks to the disease.

This issue wasn't apparent back then because so few bucks make it to maturity.


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## kmckinnie (Aug 7, 2014)

We need to shoot them Wisconsin deer off. Bucks & does!


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## GTHunter007 (Aug 7, 2014)

C.Killmaster said:


> Funny you should bring that up.  We've just recently discovered that deer that were imported from Wisconsin 50+ years ago brought along with them a little disease called cranial abscess.  Through some of our very recent cooperative research with UGA, we determined that all the areas with this disease were stocked from Wisconsin.  Further, it was traced back directly to the stocking source in Wisconsin.  Areas that have it are losing a substantial percentage of their mature bucks to the disease.
> 
> This issue wasn't apparent back then because so few bucks make it to maturity.



That is interesting.  Is this a problem in the deer up in Wisconsin today as well?

Can this disease cause abnormal antler growths in mature bucks seemingly out of nowhere??  No other injuries prevalent or apparent??


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## JBowers (Aug 8, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> For the sake of argument...isn't the herd in GA an example of "moving deer" success? Bringing the different biological packages together to form that genetically stronger animal?


 
The majority of deer stocked in Georgia were native deer (i.e., Georgia deer).  However, with the knowledged gained since then it likely would have been done much differently.  For example, taking into account the EHD example and the example provided by Charlie.

When discussing restocking, it is important to remember that there were still GA native deer in the restocked areas and the areas that were not restocked.  Deer were not eradicated!


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## JBowers (Aug 8, 2014)

GTHunter007 said:


> That is interesting. Is this a problem in the deer up in Wisconsin today as well?
> 
> Can this disease cause abnormal antler growths in mature bucks seemingly out of nowhere?? No other injuries prevalent or apparent??


 
Yes.

Yes it can cause abnormal antler development.

The deer didn't, per se, bring a new disease (Just a simplification on Charlie's part). Those biological packages brought a quite virulent strain of bacterium that causes cranial abcesses and brain abcesses. While this bacteria occurs in other locations across the state, it doesn't appear to be as virulent as the strain that occurs where the single source WI were stocked.


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## Milkman (Aug 14, 2014)

From what I read here most of the responding bow hunters feel the deer population is healthy where they hunt. 

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=812807


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## JimmyD (Aug 15, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Are the current studies confirming the .40 recruitment?



Numbers I have seen are about .55 for Ga.  Compare that to .83 for the US.  Keep in mind we have a much milder winter than our Northern counterparts, and we are not as dry as the western states, yet our numbers have fallen below almost everywhere.
I believe it is predation, like the Wile E. Coyote!!
That is what's dropping overall numbers, the kill rate is down from the late 90's.... Of course we are killing a few percentage points higher in terms of does.  Be nice to see that number drop to about 50-55


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## Milkman (Oct 9, 2014)

Bump


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## Broken Arrow 68 (Oct 9, 2014)

The main difference I have seen hunting and living in various states, is, in my personal opinion, a much higher rate of poaching in Georgia that's not accounted for in any other statistic.  Again, this is just from personal observation based on things I see and observe.


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## spurrs and racks (Oct 9, 2014)

*Please!*

Do not fire this thread back up.


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## Rich M (Oct 11, 2014)

...


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## brian lee (Oct 11, 2014)

spurrs and racks said:


> Do not fire this thread back up.



I agree with this gentleman. Everyone has their own opinion & your not going to change that. Bottom line


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## Jeff Phillips (Oct 11, 2014)

Opinions are one thing and biological facts are something altogether different...


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## brian lee (Oct 11, 2014)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Opinions are one thing and biological facts are something altogether different...



You're right. But I'll be the judge of what I harvest on my land bc I know what the herd population is & I don't need the state to tell me any different.


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## JimmyD (Oct 11, 2014)

Nice to see this topic up again!!!!  There were not many regulations in the 1800's and early 1900's...... It didn't work out to well for the deer.  I could list many examples but the best is the passenger pigeon, many people can't be trusted to "judge for themselves" on how much to kill..... That has been proven over and over and over


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## lthammerhead (Oct 12, 2014)

If anyone thinks the number of doe and Bucks that are set by the game laws actually matters is living in a dream world. Our system in Georgia is set so that individual landowners and hunting clubs etc. can make there own decisions on the amount of deer to harvest on their own property. this system is an honor system no one not even the game warden can figure out how many deer you have killed.  Its up to you. stop blaming the state for the amount of deer on your property. they really have no control over it. It is all up to you or your club members!


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## Milkman (Oct 12, 2014)

brian lee said:


> You're right. But I'll be the judge of what I harvest on my land bc I know what the herd population is & I don't need the state to tell me any different.



I agree and basically stated the same thing in the OP.  However, I think folks need to be informed that there are dramatic deer population declines in several areas of Ga.  These areas need to have consideration given to not shooting does.


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## bigblocktransam (Oct 12, 2014)

JimmyD said:


> many people can't be trusted to "judge for themselves" on how much to kill..... That has been proven over and over and over



Exactly. Otherwise, we wouldn't have speed limit signs, BOC limits on driving etc.. Do you really trust other people to make the right decision? Most in Ga just have an itchy trigger finger and care nothing about deer population.


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## Powerline (Oct 12, 2014)

I shoot one doe a year have for the last 15 years or so . I shot one this evening in Lamar county on a new lease first time I wished I had not done so. Things have just changed so much that now when I go hunting I expect not to see any deer at all .


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## JB0704 (Oct 13, 2014)

Milkman said:


> However, I think folks need to be informed that there are dramatic deer population declines in several areas of Ga.  These areas need to have consideration given to not shooting does.



Many cannot be convinced of this.   It amazes me how many people think they know more about property they have never seen than folks who have hunted it for years.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 13, 2014)

I noticed that SC cut back pretty heavy on their doe days this year.


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## mtr3333 (Oct 13, 2014)

brian lee said:


> You're right. But I'll be the judge of what I harvest on my land bc I know what the herd population is & I don't need the state to tell me any different.



You are saying this to a bunch of self proclaimed freedom loving constitutionalist conservatives who want less govt...
 unless it boils down to getting govt to protect their antler crop.  

Bravo sir, bravo.. 

PS they will cook the books on recruitment rates to get their way. Antlerless is counted as doe in the numbers while we all know many members of the antlerless category are bucks.( i.e., < 1 inch above hair) 

We don't have a management program for sex of deer. Management is entirely based on antlered or antlerless harvest. And as for what I take, if it's what I want, I'll pull the trigger.


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## Milkman (Oct 20, 2014)

Well now lookie here........... seems like some hunters at Cedar Creek may be seeing the light.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=820983


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## T.P. (Jan 2, 2017)

I agree, Milkman.


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## Jim Boyd (Jan 2, 2017)

We hunt 850 acres over in SC, there are six of us and we have 6 different tracts. They are all, however, within about 3 miles from each other - as the crow flies. 

That area is inundated with deer and we cannot stay out in front of them. 

We generally take 10-14 does per year - and this year, we took three bucks: 257 lbs, 224 lbs and I believe the first one was 187 lbs. 

Our mature does from from 120 lbs down to about 90 lbs. 

Yes, a strong herd is a good problem to have. 

If we ever were faced with a shortage of deer and deer sightings / harvest we would immediately eliminate or reduce doe harvest. 

I know this is a contentious issue - and I remain mystified by this - so MANY issues on GON become arguments. 

Here is what I wish for everyone for 2017 - a season in which you are satisfied and it leaves you longing for the next season. 

This is EXACTLY the place in which I find myself today (as I weld / fabricate) on a nasty, wet and gloomy day.


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## Lone Hunter (Jan 2, 2017)

Land can only support so many deer.

50/50 buck doe ratio, or 5/95 buck doe ratio, it's all the same to the land.

Just like a pond, you can have a lot of little fish or fewer big fish, doesn't matter to the pond.


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## Lone Hunter (Jan 2, 2017)

In Athens they are a threat to traffic.

I can see a dozen does in the yard most days, but only occasional bucks, and a 120 is a rarity.

No way to hunt them as I am surrounded by neighbors and they get fed corn.


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## Jeff Phillips (Jan 2, 2017)

Lone Hunter said:


> Land can only support so many deer.
> 
> 50/50 buck doe ratio, or 5/95 buck doe ratio, it's all the same to the land.
> 
> Just like a pond, you can have a lot of little fish or fewer big fish, doesn't matter to the pond.



A buck doe ratio preseason can't be worse than around 3 does per buck. Does have been over 60% of the kill for 2 decades. Our ratios are better than Texas and our recruitment is way down.

The doe kill needs further reduction.


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## Lone Hunter (Jan 2, 2017)

I can remember hunting in Mississippi in the 60's and seeing 100 deer a day and not a horn.

This was when killing a doe was akin to child molestation.

It is hard to get us old guys to bust a cap on a doe to this day.

I am 67 and have probably taken 5 in my life.

Just don't seem right though I know it it necessary.

I always say I am going to take one but chicken out.

Best buck bait there is, and I am an unashamed horn hunter.

I could take my 10 here in Clarke County with a crossbow, and I only have 4 1/2 acres.

On my Louisiana land the last 10 bucks averaged 200 lbs., but you can see more deer driving to Walmart here in Athens than you can see in a season in the Kisatchie.

Going back for the "primitive" season, might take one with the .35 Whelen single shot, but I will not defile my buck guns shooting one.

As the twig was bent so grew the tree.


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## Blisterapine (Jan 2, 2017)

I stopped shooting does on my farm a few years ago- would it hurt to kill a couple, of course not. It's just something I prefer not to do, to many get killed in SW GA as it is, it's not even arguable or up for discussion, it's a fact.


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## Milkman (Jan 2, 2017)

I read this thread again just now. We shared some good information and opinion here.   

Thanks for all the input


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## mossyoakpro (Jan 2, 2017)

Jim Boyd said:


> We hunt 850 acres over in SC, there are six of us and we have 6 different tracts. They are all, however, within about 3 miles from each other - as the crow flies.
> 
> That area is inundated with deer and we cannot stay out in front of them.
> 
> ...



Best post on this whole thread IMO.....Thanks Mr. Jim!


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## T.P. (Jul 31, 2017)

Great thread.


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## Mexican Squealer (Jul 31, 2017)

Way too many does being killed on every property I own or lease.  Coyotes and Floridians have put way too much of a hurtin' on them.


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## kmckinnie (Jul 31, 2017)

I don't know about to many. Being kilt. The fla boys on our club kill about 3 to 5 apiece & we still see plenty. Doing this for years. 12 hunters on 1400 acres. Some only kill 2.


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## garveywallbanger (Aug 1, 2017)

There are not near as many deer hunters as there were 25 years ago. If you want to blame anything for the reduction in deer numbers in your area then I would look no farther than the motor vehicle.


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## nickel back (Aug 1, 2017)

The doe pop is not an issue until its knocking on your front door, don't let it get there,take care of your deer herd(with out the Doe you don't have one)


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## Mexican Squealer (Aug 1, 2017)

garveywallbanger said:


> There are not near as many deer hunters as there were 25 years ago. If you want to blame anything for the reduction in deer numbers in your area then I would look no farther than the motor vehicle.



Wrong, at least where I hunt.


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## glynr329 (Aug 1, 2017)

*Does*

Your situation is a great one to have.
 The problem that a lot of people have is to many clubs with 12 hunters on 140 acres and think they can kill 3 or 4 apiece. There is around 300 acres next to me and if I let a buck go he better go the other way or he is dead. I talked to 2 of the guys one day and asked how many of you hunt. They had no idea a lot is what he said. Here is the problem. 



kmckinnie said:


> I don't know about to many. Being kilt. The fla boys on our club kill about 3 to 5 apiece & we still see plenty. Doing this for years. 12 hunters on 1400 acres. Some only kill 2.


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## Core Lokt (Aug 1, 2017)

My friend runs a club in Ga. 8 members on 1k ac. each member gets 3 does and 2 bucks. I think 3-4 does per season (if that ) have been killed the last 5-6 seasons. plenty of deer still on the property. Guess what, every member is from FL. 

If you don't want people to shoot 10 does then have club rules stating only 1,2,3,4,5, can be killed by each member. If they don't like it they can find another club to join. this FL vs GA hunters is getting old.


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## transfixer (Aug 1, 2017)

We self impose a 5 deer limit on ourselves, and have for years,  last couple of years we've lowered that limit to 3 deer per member,  and strongly suggest it only consist of one doe, two at the most.   But there are still way to many people that prescribe to the " if its brown its down" way of hunting,  but what can you do?  it especially hurts in the counties that receive a lot of hunting pressure.  The only detriment of Fla hunters that I can see is they have been willing to pay the high prices per acre that landowner/investment companies are charging,  more so than Ga hunters it seems,  so the prices keep increasing, especially in middle and south ga,  cause the landowners know they can get someone to pay it.  I understand good deer hunting land in Fla is scarce,  if I lived down there I might be willing to pay whatever also?  not sure.


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## ryanh487 (Aug 1, 2017)

I for one was very disappointed to see doe days extended in Polk county.  There are only 2 weeks in rifle season where you cannot shoot does.  I'd rather it be the other way around, only 2 weeks that you can, and spread them out.  We're finally starting to see deer again on a regular basis after 5 seasons of 0-2 does (usually first time hunters we bring up) being killed on 300 acres surrounded by 3,000.  I saw more deer last season than I have in the previous 4 combined.  I think if we just went to 0 doe days for 2-3 years and then went back to maybe 50/50 doe days/no does, at least in a big part of the northern zone, we'd see a big bounce back to the populations everyone remembers from the late 90s/early 2000's.


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## kmckinnie (Aug 1, 2017)

glynr329 said:


> Your situation is a great one to have.
> The problem that a lot of people have is to many clubs with 12 hunters on 140 acres and think they can kill 3 or 4 apiece. There is around 300 acres next to me and if I let a buck go he better go the other way or he is dead. I talked to 2 of the guys one day and asked how many of you hunt. They had no idea a lot is what he said. Here is the problem.



All are tagged. All legal. Got deer meat in freezer. We pay good money to kill a deer. Should I say no deer. They spend thousands to hunt here. The lease cost. Lic. Plots
12 hunter on 1400 acres. Did I miss a zero.


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## kmckinnie (Aug 1, 2017)

Yeap 1400 acres 12 plus


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## Buckman18 (Aug 1, 2017)

Core Lokt said:


> this FL vs GA hunters is getting old.



I agree. I think the State of Georgia should substantially increase non res license fees to the point where there aren't so many folks from FL coming up. Less land demand would not be a bad thing.


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## kmckinnie (Aug 1, 2017)

The fact Ga hunter makes money off fla club members. Ga guys got leases and fla boys fill memberships. 
Timber makes up keep money. Free enterprise lols
DNR make revenue.


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## kmckinnie (Aug 1, 2017)

I'd have more land to hunt if it was not for them sand flA hunters.


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## Milkman (Aug 1, 2017)

Milkman said:


> This isnt a new subject by any means. And I'm not bashing anyone in their legal pursuit of fun in the woods. I support you in anything legal.
> 
> What I am suggesting is a non bashing discussion of whether you feel the whitetail population in your area can support removal of does.
> 
> ...



OK , I aint mod of this forum any longer (thankfully ) so this is just a suggestion.  This thread was started 3 years ago to discuss the feasibility of shooting does in Ga.  There are dozens of posts discussing just that. 

If yall want to start a whizzing contest about who lives where and who hunts where why not start another thread.


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## kmckinnie (Aug 1, 2017)

Sorry milk man. 
There is a fine line in keeping the doe herd in check. 
We all need to keep a eye on it.


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## spurrs and racks (Aug 1, 2017)

*start another thread*

please no, please

Opinions are like feet....most folks have two and they both stink.

mine as well....

My thoughts are this, read this thread agree or not agree, please evaluate how much your opinion really matters, as hunters, as conservationist, as outdoorsmen.

The laws are not going to change. (as far as the deer limits).  Ask yourself why this is. Form your own opinion and for momma's sake keep it to yourself.

s&r


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 1, 2017)

spurrs and racks said:


> please no, please
> 
> Opinions are like feet....most folks have two and they both stink.
> 
> ...



I can easily change my own doe limit, and have.


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## ryanh487 (Aug 1, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> I can easily change my own doe limit, and have.



And therein lies the point of these discussions.

Too many ignorant folks think that just because they're allowed to kill 10 does, that they're entitled to kill 10 does, and too many do it just to do it and give meat away.

Folks have forgotten the burden and responsibility of conservation, which is the whole purpose of hunting.  There are not enough animals in this state for hundreds of thousands of hunters to use the woods as their personal grocery store.


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## spurrs and racks (Aug 1, 2017)

*Mac ...*

It’s not a Doe herd, it's a deer herd.

I am of this opinion. The deer herd will manage itself.

You will not catch all the fish in a pond, and you will not kill all the deer in the woods.

Will the population go up and down? Certainly and without question. Can we as mankind have an effect on this, without question.

Whitetail deer have been here longer than educated men, by a few thousand years. (Save them folks who don't believe dinosaurs ever existed)

Whitetail deer expand from Mid Canada to South America mountain range naturally. And, lots have been written about the encroachment of whitetail deer into traditional mule deer habitat.

Nobody I know has all the right answers. In my lifetime I have seen the deer limit at 2 and no doe days. Over population was a real problem. Now the limit is 12 and there are not near as many deer, but the herd is very healthy. 

Could the limit be half as many? Certainly, but I don't know for certain if it would change anything.

All of this is a personal opinion not worth the time it took to write it nor your time to read it.

s&r


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## spurrs and racks (Aug 1, 2017)

*please, please*

Don't call folks ignorant because they like what God provides for us and take advantage of our laws that allow them to feed themselves food that I believe is better for you than what you buy at Kroger. 

It's wrong and it's not fair. Personally, I don't know anybody who shoots 10 does. But if they did/do it's legal.

s&r


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## ryanh487 (Aug 1, 2017)

spurrs and racks said:


> It’s not a Doe herd, it's a deer herd.
> 
> I am of this opinion. The deer herd will manage itself.
> 
> ...



Hunters wiped out deer from GA before.  We had to bring in animals from out of state to begin repopulating to what we have now.  To say that hunters killing whatever they want will not repeat the same is nothing other than pure ignorance.  There's not a more polite or appropriate word for it.  Man all but wiped out the buffalo, the elk, the wild turkey, quail, cranes, alligators, wolves, mountain lions, etc etc and the list goes on and on, and that was without modern technology or modern numbers of folks going after them.  We are absolutely capable of driving the herd to 0 or near 0 numbers in a mere few years if we refuse to be responsible with our resources.

there are a tiny handful of folks who kill 10 and eat 10 in their home.  I have no problem with those folks.  But there are a lot of folks who kill 10 just to kill 10 and then make posts on social media trying to find folks to take the meat so it doesn't go to waste.  Those hunters I take issue with.  those folks are the ones killing just to kill, and it's irresponsible and in many areas of this state unethical management of our resources.


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## kmckinnie (Aug 1, 2017)

The record shows most only kill 1 or 2 does. Only 51% of the hunters kill a deer. 
So what is the answer. In my area I see deer. 

I have seen less turkey last few years.


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## Core Lokt (Aug 1, 2017)

Buckman18 said:


> I agree. I think the State of Georgia should substantially increase non res license fees to the point where there aren't so many folks from FL coming up. Less land demand would not be a bad thing.



Be careful what you ask for..... From Central to South FL leases easily run 7-10K *per member*....  N FL leases are filling from the guys that can't afford those prices down there are filling cheaper leases up here and  into GA.


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## ryanh487 (Aug 1, 2017)

kmckinnie said:


> The record shows most only kill 1 or 2 does. Only 51% of the hunters kill a deer.
> So what is the answer. In my area I see deer.
> 
> I have seen less turkey last few years.



It's a very regional issue.  There's deer everywhere in Cobb County, even Cherokee county.  But only a few miles away in Polk, they were starting to disappear for a while.  They're coming back slowly, and I believe limiting doe days for  2 seasons was a big help.  It really comes down to having educated hunters with a passion not only for the killing, but for the conservation and protection of game.  In a perfect world, there would be no limits or season dates and hunters would have the sense to pay attention to their herds and harvest according to that instead of simply looking at a piece of paper and trusting that it's right.


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## Core Lokt (Aug 1, 2017)

Come down to the coast in the Summer in Gulf, Franklin, Wakulla, Jefferson and Taylor counties. 75% GA tags on the trucks/trailers at the ramps, restaurants, and marinas. I'm not complaining but don't think GA folks can't be a problem here in FL....

FL folks go to GA to hunt and GA folks come to FL to fish. It is what it is.


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## spurrs and racks (Aug 1, 2017)

*These times...*

"Hunters wiped out deer from GA before. We had to bring in animals from out of state to begin repopulating to what we have now. To say that hunters killing whatever they want will not repeat the same is nothing other than pure ignorance. There's not a more polite or appropriate word for it. Man all but wiped out the buffalo, the elk, the wild turkey, quail, cranes, alligators, wolves, mountain lions, etc etc and the list goes on and on, and that was without modern technology or modern numbers of folks going after them. We are absolutely capable of driving the herd to 0 or near 0 numbers in a mere few years if we refuse to be responsible with our resources.

there are a tiny handful of folks who kill 10 and eat 10 in their home. I have no problem with those folks. But there are a lot of folks who kill 10 just to kill 10 and then make posts on social media trying to find folks to take the meat so it doesn't go to waste. Those hunters I take issue with. those folks are the ones killing just to kill, and it's irresponsible and in many areas of this state unethical management of our resources. "


......are not those times. 

It's about law enforcement, and having the ability to obey the law.

 Many of the years you speak, man itself was trying to survive. Should our world do an about face, and there is no Kroger, No Publix, No Ingles...a lot of game as you speak and many more...including man kind...might face extinction.

s&r


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## kmckinnie (Aug 1, 2017)

The screw worm wiped out the deer. 50ty 60ty s til the screw worm was  eradicated. Live stock as well.


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## Mexican Squealer (Aug 1, 2017)

Core Lokt said:


> My friend runs a club in Ga. 8 members on 1k ac. each member gets 3 does and 2 bucks. I think 3-4 does per season (if that ) have been killed the last 5-6 seasons. plenty of deer still on the property. Guess what, every member is from FL.
> 
> If you don't want people to shoot 10 does then have club rules stating only 1,2,3,4,5, can be killed by each member. If they don't like it they can find another club to join. this FL vs GA hunters is getting old.



Doesn't matter what I want, I don't own or have any association with the clubs around me.  I do know that every member is from Fla so that's why I said Floridians and I do know they shoot way too many does.  I imagine you would feel the same way if you owned a farm that has been affected this way.  Got nothing against folks from Fla as I love to fish down there as often as I can.


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## nickel back (Aug 2, 2017)

kmckinnie said:


> The record shows most only kill 1 or 2 does. Only 51% of the hunters kill a deer.
> So what is the answer. In my area I see deer.
> 
> I have seen less turkey last few years.



to many hunters think this way ^^ and that in its self is an issue.I know of 8 hunters that could care less about reporting their deer kills and those are the ones that just admit to it(THE RECORDS ARE FLAWED)There is many ways deer die,hunters are not the only ones killing them. Will say it one more time. The Doe pop is not an issue till its knocking on your front door, take care of your deer herd.


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## Core Lokt (Aug 2, 2017)

Mexican Squealer said:


> Doesn't matter what I want, I don't own or have any association with the clubs around me.  I do know that every member is from Fla so that's why I said Floridians and I do know they shoot way too many does.  I imagine you would feel the same way if you owned a farm that has been affected this way.  Got nothing against folks from Fla as I love to fish down there as often as I can.



Write GA DNR and give them your opinion. They are the ones that allow 10 does per hunter. Unless they are killing 11 or more each they are not breaking any laws. If they are report them.


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## drenalin08 (Aug 2, 2017)

Yep I agree 100% population is way down in my part of Ga.


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## Bucky T (Aug 2, 2017)

Plenty of deer where I hunt.


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## PappyHoel (Aug 2, 2017)

PappyHoel said:


> 45 members x 4 deer limit on 1900 acres.



We now have 47 members x 4 deer per member.  That sums up the problem of this entire thread.  We have a hunter density problem not a deer problem.

To get the members down on my club that would mean upping the dues to $1300 a year 23 members.  I was told I was crazy on this forum and no one would pay that to hunt.  Again a hunter problem not a deer problem.


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## PappyHoel (Aug 2, 2017)

Oh and our deer harvest has averaged about 20 deer per season the last 7 seasons.  About 3 bucks and 15 does and a couple oops I didn't know it was a button deer.  

I saw deer almost every sit last year.  I just think it could be so much better.


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## kmckinnie (Aug 2, 2017)

nickel back said:


> to many hunters think this way ^^ and that in its self is an issue.I know of 8 hunters that could care less about reporting their deer kills and those are the ones that just admit to it(THE RECORDS ARE FLAWED)There is many ways deer die,hunters are not the only ones killing them. Will say it one more time. The Doe pop is not an issue till its knocking on your front door, take care of your deer herd.



Yea. I hear ya! Who's job is it to report the 8 poachers for not reporting. Do I hear crickets......
Don't complain about no does in your area with poaching
They must be good ol GA. Boys. 
Earlier it was others from another state someone said killing the does. 

Anyway we Tring to do our part in our little part of the world. 

Y'all preach on.


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## Milkman (Aug 2, 2017)

PappyHoel said:


> We now have 47 members x 4 deer per member.  That sums up the problem of this entire thread.  We have a hunter density problem not a deer problem.
> 
> To get the members down on my club that would mean upping the dues to $1300 a year 23 members.  I was told I was crazy on this forum and no one would pay that to hunt.  Again a hunter problem not a deer problem.



People told you wrong. 

 Many folks are paying $1300 and more to deer hunt.  An individual that rents a 100 acre tract is paying more than $1300 a year.  rent + insurance+ maintenance+ plots + stands............... I better stop before I talk myself into giving up that tract


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## kmckinnie (Aug 2, 2017)

PappyHoel said:


> Oh and our deer harvest has averaged about 20 deer per season the last 7 seasons.  About 3 bucks and 15 does and a couple oops I didn't know it was a button deer.
> 
> I saw deer almost every sit last year.  I just think it could be so much better.



Sounds about average. Bet y'all have fun at that camp.


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## kmckinnie (Aug 2, 2017)

Milkman said:


> People told you wrong.
> 
> Many folks are paying $1300 and more to deer hunt.  An individual that rents a 100 acre tract is paying more than $1300 a year.  rent + insurance+ maintenance+ plots + stands............... I better stop before I talk myself into giving up that tract



Those are the facts. 100 acres a piece cost in that area. 
I better stop also.


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## nickel back (Aug 2, 2017)

kmckinnie said:


> Yea. I hear ya! Who's job is it to report the 8 poachers for not reporting. Do I hear crickets......
> Don't complain about no does in your area with poaching
> They must be good ol GA. Boys.
> Earlier it was others from another state someone said killing the does.
> ...



Did I say my area?

Did I say I did not turn them in.

Also I could care less what you kill or how many you kill. Go back and read my post(359). If you want to spin it go ahead and do so, I could care less.



Have a nice day


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