# "In God we trust"



## atlashunter (Oct 5, 2017)

Local sheriff has this on his patrol cars. Leaves me wondering why his deputies are still carrying guns.


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## 660griz (Oct 5, 2017)

Or, lightning rods on churches. Shows a lack of faith.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 5, 2017)

Its more or less just a generic feel good phrase.
Certainly a Christian does trust in God... while at the same time going to the doctor, carrying a gun etc etc..... just in case.


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## j_seph (Oct 5, 2017)

Just glad y'all give out that message everytime ya hand someone some change.


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## 660griz (Oct 5, 2017)

j_seph said:


> Just glad y'all give out that message everytime ya hand someone some change.



Wasn't my idea to put it on the money. However, I don't feel strongly enough to try to have it removed. If it makes some folks all warm and fuzzy, so be it.

Not quite the same as the other examples.


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## 660griz (Oct 5, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Its more or less just a generic feel good phrase.
> Certainly a Christian does trust in God... while at the same time going to the doctor, carrying a gun etc etc..... just in case.



Cuz talking the talk is easier than walking the walk.


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## stringmusic (Oct 5, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Local sheriff has this on his patrol cars. Leaves me wondering why his deputies are still carrying guns.



So they can shoot people if they need to?


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## stringmusic (Oct 5, 2017)

Reminds of a joke. I think I've posted it before.

A man was warned a flood was coming to his area. 

First, a truck comes by to rescue people from the coming flood, the man replies "God is going to save me"

When the flood came and the waters had risen, the man went to the second floor of his home. A boat comes by to save him, and again he replies "God is going to save me"

When the waters had risen even higher, the man climbs to his roof, and a helicopter comes to save him, and he replies "God is going to save me"

The waters finally rise again and the man is killed and goes to heaven. He asked God, "why didn't you save me?" And God says to the man " I tried, I sent you a truck, a boat, and a helicopter"


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## centerpin fan (Oct 5, 2017)




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## JustUs4All (Oct 5, 2017)

I always figured God would help those who helped themselves.  I never count on him pulling the full load by himself.


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## 660griz (Oct 5, 2017)

I picked up my mother-in-law so she could stay with us for awhile. 
On the drive back, we got in a nasty thunderstorm. She kept hollaring, "Jesus save us!" 

I let go of the steering wheel and said, "Fine! He can drive." She shut up.


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## atlashunter (Oct 5, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> So they can shoot people if they need to?



No need to shoot anyone when an all powerful deity has your back.


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## atlashunter (Oct 5, 2017)

JustUs4All said:


> I always figured God would help those who helped themselves.  I never count on him pulling the full load by himself.



No need for help where people do the heavy lifting themselves. I suppose I could do a job and give an imaginary friend credit but I doubt it makes me any more productive than just doing the job and being honest with myself.

It also begs the question why a deity would require the help of a mortal and what exactly he is being trusted to do. One of those deputies took a bullet in the face on a traffic stop. If my partner had the awareness and power to prevent that from happening to me and let it happen anyway I'd probably trust him a little less in the future.


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## 660griz (Oct 5, 2017)

JustUs4All said:


> I always figured God would help those who helped themselves.



Between that and, "God moves in mysterious ways.", and "It was God's will." 
God doesn't really have to do anything.


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## atlashunter (Oct 5, 2017)

660griz said:


> Between that and, "God moves in mysterious ways.", and "It was God's will."
> God doesn't really have to do anything.



Such an easy gig even someone that doesn't exist could do it.


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## ambush80 (Oct 5, 2017)

660griz said:


> Between that and, "God moves in mysterious ways.", and "It was God's will."
> God doesn't really have to do anything.



Yet He does.....

All.

(I'm ripping off the style of one of our regulars)


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## 660griz (Oct 5, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Yet He does.....
> 
> All. (Except for the stuff the debil does.)
> 
> (I'm ripping off the style of one of our regulars)



Like AH said. "easy gig..."


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## ambush80 (Oct 5, 2017)

660griz said:


> Like AH said. "easy gig..."



God is sovereign.  The Devil is a tool of God just like you or me or Creflo Dollar.


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## 660griz (Oct 5, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> God is sovereign.  The Devil is a tool of God just like you or me or Creflo Dollar.



You had me at tool.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 5, 2017)

j_seph said:


> Just glad y'all give out that message everytime ya hand someone some change.


Remember you said that when in the future they say "In Allah we Trust".


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## JustUs4All (Oct 5, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> ....It also begs the question why a deity would require the help of a mortal and what exactly he is being trusted to do.



I don't think required is the correct word here




660griz said:


> Between that and, "God moves in mysterious ways.", and "It was God's will."
> God doesn't really have to do anything.



I sometimes move in mysterious ways and I do not voluntarily help those who are able but unwilling to help themselves. Perhaps I am a part of God or the Universal Consciousness.  There are things that I do not understand and which science is unable to explain.  I have experienced and witnessed "assistance".  You might like to call it luck. 

Unless and until I have a more complete understanding, I will continue to believe that there is a higher power than myself and In God I will trust.


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## 660griz (Oct 5, 2017)

JustUs4All said:


> I sometimes move in mysterious ways and I do not voluntarily help those who are able but unwilling to help themselves. Perhaps I am a part of God or the Universal Consciousness.


 I don't move in mysterious ways. Not even sure how to. Perhaps you are 'special'. 





> There are things that I do not understand and which science is unable to explain.


 Thus the main reason for the invention of religion. Some folks have a hard time with. "I don't know". If it can't be explained, God did it. Think of all the things we know now vs. the time of Christ. Yet, this is still brought up.  





> I have experienced and witnessed "assistance".  You might like to call it luck.


 I have not. 'Luck' is when preparation meets opportunity. 



> Unless and until I have a more complete understanding, I will continue to believe that there is a higher power than myself and In God I will trust.


 Until you understand you will believe in something you can't understand? 

Once again, trust to do what? What he wants? That makes perfect sense to you? I don't think anyone really knows what that means. Sounds good though.


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## stringmusic (Oct 5, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> No need for help where people do the heavy lifting themselves. I suppose I could do a job and give an imaginary friend credit but I doubt it makes me any more productive than just doing the job and being honest with myself.
> 
> It also begs the question why a deity would require the help of a mortal and what exactly he is being trusted to do. One of those deputies took a bullet in the face on a traffic stop. If my partner had the awareness and power to prevent that from happening to me and let it happen anyway I'd probably trust him a little less in the future.





atlashunter said:


> No need to shoot anyone when an all powerful deity has your back.



It seems like you already know the answer.


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## ambush80 (Oct 5, 2017)

JustUs4All said:


> I don't think required is the correct word here
> 
> I sometimes move in mysterious ways and I do not voluntarily help those who are able but unwilling to help themselves. Perhaps I am a part of God or the Universal Consciousness.  There are things that I do not understand and which science is unable to explain.



Are you familiar with "The God of the Gaps"? 

There may be things that we will never understand because philosophically there are infinite things to know about.  (Ironically, we can't even be sure that THAT is true).  But we know more than we did and many, many of the things we know about used to be attributed to God(s).  That's just the facts.  The track record is bad for the God of the Gaps.



JustUs4All said:


> I have experienced and witnessed "assistance".  You might like to call it luck.
> 
> Unless and until I have a more complete understanding, I will continue to believe that there is a higher power than myself and In God I will trust.



That is absolutely the LAST thing you should do.  I would imagine that allot of your "trust" was ingrained in you by your parents and the dominant culture in which you live. 

Lets use that as an example for anything else.  "Unless I have a more complete understanding [of lightning], I will continue to believe that there is a higher......"

[Germ theory]
[internal combustion]
[Seratonin uptake]
[Psycopathy]
.....


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## JustUs4All (Oct 5, 2017)

My belief system works for me.  I believe in a higher power because I believe that the complex organization that is present in nature could not be created by randomness.  

Could be that atheists did it I suppose but I think not despite their not wanting to share credit with anyone else.


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## ambush80 (Oct 5, 2017)

JustUs4All said:


> My belief system works for me.



But perhaps not as well as a different belief system might.  Just sayin.



JustUs4All said:


> I believe in a higher power because I believe that the complex organization that is present in nature could not be created by randomness.



That is EXACTLY The God of the Gaps. 



JustUs4All said:


> Could be that atheists did it I suppose but I think not despite their not wanting to share credit with anyone else.



Atheists don't do anything except for disbelieving in God.  SOME atheists work to get religion out of the govt.  Some of them believe in the healing power of crystals, copper underwear, or Santa Clause.  They don't have a dogma or a charter.  They just don't believe in God.


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## JustUs4All (Oct 5, 2017)

That seems just as odd to me as I must to you.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 5, 2017)

JustUs4All said:


> My belief system works for me.  I believe in a higher power because I believe that the complex organization that is present in nature could not be created by randomness.
> 
> Could be that atheists did it I suppose but I think not despite their not wanting to share credit with anyone else.





> could not be created by randomness.


This seems to be the standard Christian reason/argument.
"random" means ANY old conditions can create complex organization. "Close your eyes and at random pick some conditions an "poof" you have complex organization".

When you make a chocolate cake do you just randomly pick any old ingredients you may have in the house or is there a recipe containing the necessary ingredients when combined together make a chocolate cake?


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## JustUs4All (Oct 5, 2017)

I would like to know who wrote the recipe for the big chocolate cake that is life on Earth?


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## WaltL1 (Oct 5, 2017)

JustUs4All said:


> I would like to know who wrote the recipe for the big chocolate cake that is life on Earth?


I must be a clairvoyant because I figured the point would be skipped right over to that exact response.
The subject/point was conditions and ingredients.
Its interesting though how your mind insists "somebody" had to write the recipe.


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## JustUs4All (Oct 5, 2017)

They must be combined in a specific manner for the result to be what it is.  I have never known a chocolate cake to make itself.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 5, 2017)

JustUs4All said:


> They must be combined in a specific manner for the result to be what it is.  I have never known a chocolate cake to make itself.


Yes that is exactly the point. A specific manner. As opposed to -


> created by randomness.


Why does a "somebody" have to be credited with this specific manner?


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## stringmusic (Oct 6, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes that is exactly the point. A specific manner. As opposed to -
> 
> Why does a "somebody" have to be credited with this specific manner?



Sorry for jumping in...

It would be the equivalent of saying that Websters dictionary was created by an explosion in a printing press. Anytime we see complexity, like what we have in our bodies and what we see in the physical existence of the universe, we assume intelligence is behind the creation of it.


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## Israel (Oct 6, 2017)

Proxy battles.


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## JustUs4All (Oct 6, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes that is exactly the point. A specific manner. As opposed to -
> 
> Why does a "somebody" have to be credited with this specific manner?




Because my simple mind (pun intended) is not willing to accept that the specific manner that had to followed was randomly selected.   In my experience whenever things are not managed the result is chaos not order, especially not high order.  

"Somebody" does not have to be credited, I choose to credit a higher power. It is illogical to me to believe that the specific manner was not managed by some intelligence.  That intelligence certainly was higher than mine. 

Understand that this is an explanation of my belief, not an argument to convince you to join it.  I am comfortable with mine and hope that you are with yours.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 6, 2017)

JustUs4All said:


> Because my simple mind (pun intended) is not willing to accept that the specific manner that had to followed was randomly selected.   In my experience whenever things are not managed the result is chaos not order, especially not high order.
> 
> "Somebody" does not have to be credited, I choose to credit a higher power. It is illogical to me to believe that the specific manner was not managed by some intelligence.  That intelligence certainly was higher than mine.
> 
> Understand that this is an explanation of my belief, not an argument to convince you to join it.  I am comfortable with mine and hope that you are with yours.


You and String are more or less saying the same thing so I'm going to combine the two here.
First -


> Sorry for jumping in...


As for me, you are welcome to jump in anytime. And hope you and the family are doing well!


> we assume intelligence is behind the creation of it.





> It is illogical to me to believe that the specific manner was not managed by some intelligence.


So that's not an assumption that's based on any kind of evidence, data, facts etc. Its just a "feeling". Which certainly is ok for you, but at the same time you are denying other people's beliefs, their (G)gods etc.


> It is illogical to me


You sure? This seems logical to you -


> They must be combined in a specific manner for the result to be what it is


The logic works for you when talking about a chocolate cake. Same logic just a different subject.
Its not the logic, its the subject that is stopping you.


> whenever things are not managed the result is chaos not order, especially not high order.


Certainly there is complexity and order. At the same time germs we cant even see can kill us, tiny little bugs can kill us, like 70% of the earth's surface is water and we cant breath water, droughts kill millions and on and on.
Not real sure about the high order claim.  


> not an argument to convince you to join it


Good thing because Ive already been there and done that.
Nor is my/our argument trying to convince you to give up your beliefs.
I personally don't think you are right but it has not been proven for a fact that you are wrong..... yet 


> I am comfortable with mine and hope that you are with yours.


I am. Much more comfortable now then when I was a believer. Was constantly wrestling with believing in God while at the same time thinking "this whole story doesn't add up". Maybe if there wasn't a wacky story to go along with the belief in God, I might (emphasis on might) even still believe.


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## j_seph (Oct 6, 2017)

Isn't it amazing how a round sphere can hold 70% of its size in water. Even more so that the water doesn't pour out into space on the bottom side.

http://beginningandend.com/scientists-confirm-biblical-account-of-the-fountains-of-the-deep/


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## WaltL1 (Oct 6, 2017)

j_seph said:


> Isn't it amazing how a round sphere can hold 70% of its size in water. Even more so that the water doesn't pour out into space on the bottom side.
> 
> http://beginningandend.com/scientists-confirm-biblical-account-of-the-fountains-of-the-deep/


Aww c'mon.....
Water within the earth confirms the great flood? 
Give this one a thought -
If there was no rain prior to the flood and all the vegetation lived on the water IN the earth......
explain drought. You know when there is no rain and everything dies including people because of a lack of rain..
Your intelligence is being insulted by this nonsense but you want so bad for it to be true that you just go along with it.


> Even more so that the water doesn't pour out into space on the bottom side.


I don't even know what to say about that line of thought.


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## ambush80 (Oct 6, 2017)

j_seph said:


> Isn't it amazing how a round sphere can hold 70% of its size in water. Even more so that the water doesn't pour out into space on the bottom side.
> 
> http://beginningandend.com/scientists-confirm-biblical-account-of-the-fountains-of-the-deep/



This is just a simple misunderstanding about gravity and physics.  Perhaps a scientifically inclined believer will help you out in a PM.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 6, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> This is just a simple misunderstanding about gravity and physics.  Perhaps a scientifically inclined believer will help you out in a PM.


That was a very diplomatic response 
I was a little too shell shocked for diplomacy this time.


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## atlashunter (Oct 6, 2017)

Israel said:


> Proxy battles.



^Ok who hacked this guy's account.


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## atlashunter (Oct 6, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> This is just a simple misunderstanding about gravity and physics.  Perhaps a scientifically inclined believer will help you out in a PM.



Science


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## atlashunter (Oct 6, 2017)

JustUs4All said:


> Because my simple mind (pun intended) is not willing to accept that the specific manner that had to followed was randomly selected.   In my experience whenever things are not managed the result is chaos not order, especially not high order.
> 
> "Somebody" does not have to be credited, I choose to credit a higher power. It is illogical to me to believe that the specific manner was not managed by some intelligence.  That intelligence certainly was higher than mine.
> 
> Understand that this is an explanation of my belief, not an argument to convince you to join it.  I am comfortable with mine and hope that you are with yours.



If a scientist creates life in a lab will that impact your faith?


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## ambush80 (Oct 6, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> If a scientist creates life in a lab will that impact your faith?



It would mine.


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## ambush80 (Oct 6, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> That was a very diplomatic response
> I was a little too shell shocked for diplomacy this time.



I want to help.


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## bullethead (Oct 6, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> Sorry for jumping in...
> 
> It would be the equivalent of saying that Websters dictionary was created by an explosion in a printing press. Anytime we see complexity, like what we have in our bodies and what we see in the physical existence of the universe, we assume intelligence is behind the creation of it.



What we have now is a result of hundreds of billions of trillions of particles constantly interacting with hundreds of billions of trillions of other particles of every single second for billions of years.  We are and observe the results of what the conditions allow.


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## stringmusic (Oct 6, 2017)

bullethead said:


> What we have now is a result of hundreds of billions of trillions of particles constantly interacting with hundreds of billions of trillions of other particles of every single second for billions of years.  We are and observe the results of what the conditions allow.



And many scientist and mathematicians will tell you that even with those parameters, it still has zero chance of forming human DNA.


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## stringmusic (Oct 6, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> You and String are more or less saying the same thing so I'm going to combine the two here.
> First -
> 
> As for me, you are welcome to jump in anytime. And hope you and the family are doing well!



You too man! 




> So that's not an assumption that's based on any kind of evidence, data, facts etc. Its just a "feeling". Which certainly is ok for you, but at the same time you are denying other people's beliefs, their (G)gods etc.


For me, I would consider it an assumption based on evidence, maybe not specifically for any certain god, but for god in general. Just as when I eat strawberry cake (I'm changing it to strawberry cake cause I don't like chocolate cake)  I assume something intelligent made the cake, I assume something intelligent made human DNA because of the complexity of it.





> The logic works for you when talking about a chocolate cake. Same logic just a different subject.
> Its not the logic, its the subject that is stopping you.


I have the same argument the other way. Most A/A's stop their assumption of something intelligent creating complex information when the discussion about creation arises.

P.S. I hate typing on my phone and it's the main reason I don't post a lot anymore. Y'all enjoy your weekend!


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## bullethead (Oct 6, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> And many scientist and mathematicians will tell you that even with those parameters, it still has zero chance of forming human DNA.



I will leave it to you to provide the many. Please continue.


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## bullethead (Oct 6, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> You too man!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Change to suit. That goes on a lot.


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## ambush80 (Oct 6, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> You too man!
> 
> 
> 
> For me, I would consider it an assumption based on evidence, maybe not specifically for any certain god, but for god in general. Just as when I eat strawberry cake (I'm changing it to strawberry cake cause I don't like chocolate cake)  I assume something intelligent made the cake, I assume something intelligent made human DNA because of the complexity of it.



The example of a cake is less accurate than a banana.  This is the argument for a banana:



If anyone is convinced of that argument then we should deal with that issue first.  Things that happen in nature are not like "airplanes or watches being assembled by a tornado in a junkyard".  There are no "gears" laying around in nature that weren't evolved from simpler parts over millions of years.  Look into the development of the flagella of bacteria.






stringmusic said:


> I have the same argument the other way. Most A/A's stop their assumption of something intelligent creating complex information when the discussion about creation arises.
> 
> P.S. I hate typing on my phone and it's the main reason I don't post a lot anymore. Y'all enjoy your weekend!



Even if I assume that there was "something" (you actually wan to insert "somebody") that created information there's still no proof for it.  Have you ever had a piece of rope tie itself into a knot just from being blown around in the back of your truck?  Intelligence?


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## WaltL1 (Oct 6, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> You too man!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> maybe not specifically for any certain god, but for god in general


That's a really interesting (and seemingly honest) response.
Yet you have chosen a particular god, the Christian God, and what goes along with that is denying all the other gods.
Seems like a contradiction 


> Just as when I eat strawberry cake (I'm changing it to strawberry cake cause I don't like chocolate cake)


Man this conversation is killing me. Strawberry cake is even better than chocolate cake and I'm a diabetic and cant eat either one. And now you got me thinking about strawberry rhubarb pie  


> Most A/A's stop their assumption of something intelligent creating complex information when the discussion about creation arises.


I would imagine because "something intelligent", in the case of creation, generally refers to a human type quality. Although certainly other types of animals have intelligence and who really knows what else.


> P.S. I hate typing on my phone and it's the main reason I don't post a lot anymore


I have pretty much given up on even trying


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## ambush80 (Oct 6, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> You too man!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What if that information is something that just exists?  What if a vibration that causes the chain of events leading to the big bang is simply something that happens?  Attributing an intelligent cause to it is just a preference.  The default position should be "No intelligence until proven".  That's what it should be to any sensible person but we are programmed to assume agency as a survival mechanism.  We jump from the noise in the bushes because its better to mistakenly assume that it's a tiger when it might just be an aardvark. That's where the impulse to assume "guy in the sky" originates from.


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## bullethead (Oct 6, 2017)

String, what do scientists and mathematicians say the odds are humans and Chimps being related because  they share 98.5% of their DNA?


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## Spotlite (Oct 7, 2017)

The question is why would an atheist even care? Is your goal to really try find out if God exist or not, or continually mock the Christian?? I mean you really only attack one religious group anyway, so the answer is obvious. But are the Christians not allowed to practice freedom of religion without the atheist constantly mocking their beliefs???? Why so much hatred toward them?? At the end of the day, if the Christian is believing one big lie, they got nothing to lose, they can't get any deader, laugh at us then. But if the Christian is right.........the atheist have had a bad day lol. And most likely, this is the reason that they mock the Christian and spend so much time trying to prove that God doesn't exist. They're insecure and need that constant reassurance. They realize that the Christian doesn't have to prove that God exist, they just know that they can't prove he doesn't!


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## 660griz (Oct 7, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> The question is why would an atheist even care? Is your goal to really try find out if God exist or not, or continually mock the Christian?? I mean you really only attack one religious group anyway, so the answer is obvious. But are the Christians not allowed to practice freedom of religion without the atheist constantly mocking their beliefs???? Why so much hatred toward them?? At the end of the day, if the Christian is believing one big lie, they got nothing to lose, they can't get any deader, laugh at us then. But if the Christian is right.........the atheist have had a bad day lol. And most likely, this is the reason that they mock the Christian and spend so much time trying to prove that God doesn't exist. They're insecure and need that constant reassurance. They realize that the Christian doesn't have to prove that God exist, they just know that they can't prove he doesn't!



Feel better?
There is just so much wrong with your diatribe that I got tired just thinking of a response. 
A short answer, I don't spend ANY time trying to prove a God doesn't exist. I don't have to. The burden is on the one who makes the claim. I don't spend time on big foot, Santa, unicorns, etc., either.
My goal, live my life to the fullest.


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## Spotlite (Oct 7, 2017)

660griz said:


> Feel better?
> There is just so much wrong with your diatribe that I got tired just thinking of a response.
> A short answer, I don't spend ANY time trying to prove a God doesn't exist. I don't have to. The burden is on the one who makes the claim. I don't spend time on big foot, Santa, unicorns, etc., either.
> My goal, live my life to the fullest.



Well.........It is your story, you can tell it any way you like! If you don't spend any time trying to prove that God doesn't exist, what compelled you to try answer a question that didn't apply to you? And for the record, why would there be a burden on the Christian to prove anything? It's not our place. I don't believe in Bigfoot, but I haven't spent one second proving it or mocking those that do! And I'm in agreement with you on living life to the fullest.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 7, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Well.........It is your story, you can tell it any way you like! If you don't spend any time trying to prove that God doesn't exist, what compelled you to try answer a question that didn't apply to you? And for the record, why would there be a burden on the Christian to prove anything? It's not our place. I don't believe in Bigfoot, but I haven't spent one second proving it or mocking those that do! And I'm in agreement with you on living life to the fullest.


Its evident from this post and the ones on this subject in the Political Forum that you don't have a clue what Atheism is and what it isn't.


> If you don't spend any time trying to prove that God doesn't exist, what compelled you to try answer a question that didn't apply to you?


If you only want Atheists who try to prove a god doesn't exist to respond to your question, then you are in the wrong forum.


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## Spotlite (Oct 7, 2017)

waltl1 said:


> its evident from this post and the ones on this subject in the political forum that you don't have a clue what atheism is and what it isn't.
> .



k......


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## JustUs4All (Oct 7, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> If a scientist creates life in a lab will that impact your faith?



If he created a universe, an earth, a lab, life with conciseness and intelligence enough to duplicate his feat then perhaps.  But if he did he would then be that higher being, wouldn't he.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 7, 2017)

JustUs4All said:


> If he created a universe, an earth, a lab, life with conciseness and intelligence enough to duplicate his feat then perhaps.  But if he did he would then be that higher being, wouldn't he.


The big difference would be that he/she would be a higher being (if that's what you want to call him/her) that can be proven to exist and to have actually done those things.


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## bullethead (Oct 7, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> The question is why would an atheist even care? Is your goal to really try find out if God exist or not, or continually mock the Christian?? I mean you really only attack one religious group anyway, so the answer is obvious. But are the Christians not allowed to practice freedom of religion without the atheist constantly mocking their beliefs???? Why so much hatred toward them?? At the end of the day, if the Christian is believing one big lie, they got nothing to lose, they can't get any deader, laugh at us then. But if the Christian is right.........the atheist have had a bad day lol. And most likely, this is the reason that they mock the Christian and spend so much time trying to prove that God doesn't exist. They're insecure and need that constant reassurance. They realize that the Christian doesn't have to prove that God exist, they just know that they can't prove he doesn't!



Typical "its either my god and I win, or if I am wrong I lose nothing" reply.

You may have been worshipping the wrong god all along and when you die you may not be in your version of heaven or your version of nothing, you may very well be punished for spending your life worshipping the wrong god.
If you are gonna hedge your bets and cover all the bases, you best get to a couple hundred more religious rituals per day.....just to start.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 7, 2017)

And take the time to look up when "In God We Trust" was placed on money and why.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 7, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> k......


You've got Atheists and Agnostics right here that you could ask questions and actually educate yourself about the subject or you can stick with your misinformed notions.
Whatever you are most comfortable with.......

We could even start with that there are almost certainly some small number of rabid Atheists that fit what you believe.
Just as there are some small number of Westboro Baptist type rabid Christians.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 7, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Typical "its either my god and I win, or if I am wrong I lose nothing" reply.
> 
> You may have been worshipping the wrong god all along and when you die you may not be in your version of heaven or your version of nothing, you may very well be punished for spending your life worshipping the wrong god.
> If you are gonna hedge your bets and cover all the bases, you best get to a couple hundred more religious rituals per day.....just to start.


 This really don't deserve a reply, but dont fabricate anything or try to put words in my mouth. I didn't say "my God or no God" I used my religion because I believe in God and the OP of this thread is about "In God We Trust", based on that alone, there was no reason to include other religions with other gods. If you want to bring other religions and their gods into this and fabricate a debate of who's right or wrong, go debate your little heart out. I don't and I won't. Fair enough????


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 7, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> You've got Atheists and Agnostics right here that you could ask questions and actually educate yourself about the subject or you can stick with your misinformed notions.
> Whatever you are most comfortable with.......
> 
> We could even start with that there are almost certainly some small number of rabid Atheists that fit what you believe.
> Just as there are some small number of Westboro Baptist rabid Christians.


 Ok - based on your post, educate me as to why it appears that the atheist attack the Christian beliefs?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 7, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> This really don't deserve a reply, but dont fabricate anything or try to put words in my mouth. I didn't say "my God or no God" I used my religion because I believe in God and the OP of this thread is about "In God We Trust", based on that alone, there was no reason to include other religions with other gods. If you want to bring other religions and their gods into this and fabricate a debate of who's right or wrong, go debate your little heart out. I don't and I won't. Fair enough????





> At the end of the day, if the Christian is believing one big lie, they got nothing to lose, they can't get any deader, laugh at us then. But if the Christian is right.........the atheist have had a bad day lol



Those ARE your words. You made it a one or the other scenario and I am asking you what if Christians and Atheists are both wrong. I am pointing out the flaws in your 2 choice scenario.

I do not blame you for being unwilling to debate.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 7, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Ok - based on your post, educate me as to why it appears that the atheist attack the Christian beliefs?



Christianity is the predominant religion in the USA, therefore it stands to reason that it is the most common religion Atheists encounter.

The facts are that You and the majority of Christians would not be at all happy to read In Allah We Trust on currency. Yet do not see why having In God We Trust is the same thing.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 7, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Ok - based on your post, educate me as to why it appears that the atheist attack the Christian beliefs?


First I need to say that I refer to myself as Agnostic. However there isn't a whole lot of difference.
Griz, the guy who responded to you above refers to himself as an Atheist. He gave you an honest answer and you shut him down because it didn't fit your preconceived notions.
Having said that, and putting aside the rabid Atheist,
99% of what you think is an attack on Christian beliefs is actually an attack on the Christian ARGUMENT for those beliefs. Example -
"Just look at nature that proves there is a God".
Well actually no it doesn't.
"I was in a car accident and the car rolled twice. If it wasn't for God I would be dead. That proves God exists"
Well actually no it doesn't. People of all religions and no religion have had near death car accidents and survived.
Get my point?
Many Christians and it appears you included, think that attacking your argument for God is an attack on Christians and their beliefs.
It appears that way because you take it that way.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 7, 2017)

And Spotlite just a point -
Atheists aren't the reason you couldn't get a cold beer on Sunday.
Atheists aren't the reason that where I grew up it was a STATE LAW that I couldn't hunt on Sunday.
Two gay folks who may or may not believe in the god you do couldn't even get married if they wanted to.
So before you ask why an Atheist would care, consider the fact that people who don't believe in the god you do are still affected.
And you cant even prove your God exists.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 7, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Those ARE your words. You made it a one or the other scenario and I am asking you what if Christians and Atheists are both wrong. I am pointing out the flaws in your 2 choice scenario.
> 
> I do not blame you for being unwilling to debate.



It's 2 choice for a reason. That was a comparison between my belief and the atheist only. Based on what I and the atheist believe, if I'm wrong, I've got nothing to lose. That's not meaning that's it's "my way or no way". I could look at other religious groups and compare what I have to lose if I'm wrong and make the same statement without it being my way or no way. But in order to determine who's right / wrong, you'd have to debate, which I'm not open to. I will compare one more, Jehovas Witness - my neighbor is one so I assume this is correct based on what he's told me. If he dies and is on the naughty list, he's just stuck dead in a grave. He believes in some form of heaven. Based on that, I got nothing to lose if I'm wrong. That still in no way means my way or no way.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 7, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> And you cant even prove your God exists.



But that's the cool part. I don't have to. My only job is to tell he does. The rest is between you and him. For all of your scenarios above, remember that for the Christian, everything revolves around faith. They don't look for materialistic or scientific evidence to prove anything. They have faith in something that they believe is real. There is no explanation for that. You either believe it, or you don't. But just because you don't, doesn't make you right.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 7, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> 99% of what you think is an attack on Christian beliefs is actually an attack on the Christian ARGUMENT for those beliefs


 Sort of the same thing at the end of the argument. 

 At the end of the day, what are you hoping to accomplish by doing that? Your goal is still the same - atheist have the right answer and proving that the Christian doesn't? (Keep in mind, according to atheist, Christians are the only ones that have "my way or no way" attitudes)


----------



## drippin' rock (Oct 7, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> The question is why would an atheist even care? Is your goal to really try find out if God exist or not, or continually mock the Christian?? I mean you really only attack one religious group anyway, so the answer is obvious. But are the Christians not allowed to practice freedom of religion without the atheist constantly mocking their beliefs???? Why so much hatred toward them?? At the end of the day, if the Christian is believing one big lie, they got nothing to lose, they can't get any deader, laugh at us then. But if the Christian is right.........the atheist have had a bad day lol. And most likely, this is the reason that they mock the Christian and spend so much time trying to prove that God doesn't exist. They're insecure and need that constant reassurance. They realize that the Christian doesn't have to prove that God exist, they just know that they can't prove he doesn't!



I know right? LOL


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 7, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> But that's the cool part. I don't have to. My only job is to tell he does. The rest is between you and him. For all of your scenarios above, remember that for the Christian, everything revolves around faith. They don't look for materialistic or scientific evidence to prove anything. They have faith in something that they believe is real. There is no explanation for that. You either believe it, or you don't. But just because you don't, doesn't make you right.


I probably should also add that I was a Christian at one  time. As were the majority of the Atheists and Agnostics here. You really don't have to explain to me/us what everything revolves around for a Christian. 
We know.


> My only job is to tell he does.


But if you tell it and then are asked to back up what you are telling well then that's an attack on your beliefs right?
How about the examples I gave you above of how Christian beliefs affect other people?
I was told by the State I cant hunt on Sunday because that's against Christian beliefs.
Gays are told they cant get married because of Christian beliefs.
A guy who worked all day in the hot sun was told he couldn't get a cold beer because it was against Christian beliefs.
So you see its not between them and God. 


> But that's the cool part


Guess that depends on what you consider cool.


> But just because you don't, doesn't make you right


Nor does it make you right.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 7, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> It's 2 choice for a reason. That was a comparison between my belief and the atheist only. Based on what I and the atheist believe, if I'm wrong, I've got nothing to lose. That's not meaning that's it's "my way or no way". I could look at other religious groups and compare what I have to lose if I'm wrong and make the same statement without it being my way or no way. But in order to determine who's right / wrong, you'd have to debate, which I'm not open to. I will compare one more, Jehovas Witness - my neighbor is one so I assume this is correct based on what he's told me. If he dies and is on the naughty list, he's just stuck dead in a grave. He believes in some form of heaven. Based on that, I got nothing to lose if I'm wrong. That still in no way means my way or no way.


9,9998 more to consider.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 7, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Sort of the same thing at the end of the argument.
> 
> At the end of the day, what are you hoping to accomplish by doing that? Your goal is still the same - atheist have the right answer and proving that the Christian doesn't? (Keep in mind, according to atheist, Christians are the only ones that have "my way or no way" attitudes)





> atheist have the right answer and proving that the Christian doesn't?


You get that this a A/A/A forum right?
Debate is what we do here.
Put your big girl panties on and quit crying about people not agreeing with you whether its here or out there in the world.
Christian beliefs dominated society for lots of years. Now its waaaahhhhh we are losing control.


> (Keep in mind, according to atheist, Christians are the only ones that have "my way or no way" attitudes)


You mean like "no way" you can have a beer on Sunday?
You mean like "no way" gays can get married?
You mean like "no way" you can hunt on Sunday?
You mean like "no way" other gods exist?
You mean like "no way" evolution is a fact?
You mean like "no way" can any other belief be right?
Because its not "your way"?
Kinda like that you mean?

Your thought processes seem to have a very narrow field of view.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 7, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> You get that this a A/A/A forum right?
> Debate is what we do here.
> Put your big girl panties on and quit crying about people not agreeing with you whether its here or out there in the world.
> Christian beliefs dominated society for lots of years. Now its waaaahhhhh we are losing control.
> ...


It is the typical thought process replies because many believers in gods wrongfully assume that non believers KNOW there is a god but the non believers just deny it and their sole purpose is to make fun of the people who do believe.
Many believers fail to realize that we dont care what they believe in, but we get darn curious to hear them explain themselves when they make claims and cannot back up those claims with facts and evidence.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 7, 2017)

bullethead said:


> It is the typical thought process replies because many believers in gods wrongfully assume that non believers KNOW there is a god but the non believers just deny it and their sole purpose is to make fun of the people who do believe.
> Many believers fail to realize that we dont care what they believe in, but we get darn curious to hear them explain themselves when they make claims and cannot back up those claims with facts and evidence.


Well you know, they don't have to.


> But that's the cool part. I don't have to. My only job is to tell he does.


Wheres Semper Fi with that whole intellectual dishonesty thing when you need him....


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 7, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> But if you tell it and then are asked to back up what you are telling well then that's an attack on your beliefs right?


Actually, no. That's just a simple request. Unfortunately for you, I would just say "so" or "k" and leave it at that. I don't feel a need to prove anything to you.  


WaltL1 said:


> How about the examples I gave you above of how Christian beliefs affect other people?
> I was told by the State I cant hunt on Sunday because that's against Christian beliefs.
> Gays are told they cant get married because of Christian beliefs.
> A guy who worked all day in the hot sun was told he couldn't get a cold beer because it was against Christian beliefs.


So. I am a Christian. I will drink a cold one. Hunt on Sundays. Don't care if gay people marry as long as they don't try to convince me to approve of it. Knock yourself out over it. 


WaltL1 said:


> Nor does it make you right.


Nor does it make me wrong. 


WaltL1 said:


> You get that this a A/A/A forum right?
> Debate is what we do here.
> Put your big girl panties on and quit crying about people not agreeing with you whether its here or out there in the world.


LOL, 
Actually, you are in the Spiritual Help and Religion "Discussions" forum. "Debate" was removed years ago. And since we have we reached the point to where you are no longer capable of carrying on an adult conversation. God bless you


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## Spotlite (Oct 7, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Many believers fail to realize that we dont care what they believe in, but we get darn curious to hear them explain themselves when they make claims and cannot back up those claims with facts and evidence.



I guess we can just sum it up as wasted time, many non believers fail to realize that we don't care that they don't believe, but we get darn curious to hear them explain themselves when they don't have the facts and evidence to prove us wrong.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 7, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Actually, no. That's just a simple request. Unfortunately for you, I would just say "so" or "k" and leave it at that. I don't feel a need to prove anything to you.
> 
> So. I am a Christian. I will drink a cold one. Hunt on Sundays. Don't care if gay people marry as long as they don't try to convince me to approve of it. Knock yourself out over it.
> 
> ...


Scroll up to the top.
See Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics way up there?
That's where you are at.
Now go look up the definition of Apologetics.


> And since we have we reached the point to where you are no longer capable of carrying on an adult conversation. God bless you:cheers


Bye


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## Spotlite (Oct 7, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Scroll up to the top.
> See Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics way up there?
> That's where you are at.
> Now go look up the definition of Apologetics.
> ...



look to the left, see where that forum is located
Definition of apologetics
1 :systematic argumentative discourse (see 1discourse 3a) in defense (as of a doctrine)
2 :a branch of theology devoted to the defense of the divine origin and authority of Christianity
I don't see Debate..........but I do see "devoted to the defense of the divine origin and authority of Christianity" 

Yall may want another forum lol
See ya


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## WaltL1 (Oct 7, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> I guess we can just sum it up as wasted time, many non believers fail to realize that we don't care that they don't believe, but we get darn curious to hear them explain themselves when they don't have the facts and evidence to prove us wrong.


You came here. You started questions. If you don't care why did you come here?
You aren't here for any sort of intelligent debate or discussion.
Just move along.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 7, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> look to the left, see where that forum is located
> Definition of apologetics
> 1 :systematic argumentative discourse (see 1discourse 3a) in defense (as of a doctrine)
> 2 :a branch of theology devoted to the defense of the divine origin and authority of Christianity
> ...



"devoted to the defense of the divine origin and authority of Christianity"

From who?
Are you just going to guess what others have to say?
How do you defend something that you are afraid to debate?


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 7, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> You came here. You started questions. If you don't care why did you come here?
> You aren't here for any sort of intelligent debate or discussion.
> Just move along.


I did come here and I asked a serious question. Although not directly to you, but you felt compelled to enter yourself into the discussion. I don't care what you think, but asking you why you think a certain way about a topic is considered an intelligent discussion. I asked you what your goal at the end of the day was and you fell off of the wagon with the comment below. At that point, you proved that you were not capable of continuing on with an intelligent discussion. So yes, I moved on


WaltL1 said:


> You get that this a A/A/A forum right?
> Debate is what we do here.
> Put your big girl panties on and quit crying about people not agreeing with you whether its here or out there in the world.
> Christian beliefs dominated society for lots of years. Now its waaaahhhhh we are losing control.
> ...


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 7, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> look to the left, see where that forum is located
> Definition of apologetics
> 1 :systematic argumentative discourse (see 1discourse 3a) in defense (as of a doctrine)
> 2 :a branch of theology devoted to the defense of the divine origin and authority of Christianity
> ...


You are just making yourself look silly. And by associations other Christians.
When one side defends their argument against the argument of the other side that is by definition debate.
You said you were leaving twice now. Keep your word.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 7, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> I did come here and I asked a serious question. Although not directly to you, but you felt compelled to enter yourself into the discussion. I don't care what you think, but asking you why you think a certain way about a topic is considered an intelligent discussion. I asked you what your goal at the end of the day was and you fell off of the wagon with the comment below. At that point, you proved that you were not capable of continuing on with an intelligent discussion. So yes, I moved on


Wow. Just Wow.
And you wonder why some Atheists have the attitude they do.
If you think asking a question is an intelligent discussion then maybe you need to look up the definition of discussion too.
You take care, I'm not getting caught up your nonsense any further than I already have.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 8, 2017)

bullethead said:


> "devoted to the defense of the divine origin and authority of Christianity"
> 
> From who?
> Are you just going to guess what others have to say?
> How do you defend something that you are afraid to debate?



I am not afraid to debate. I am secure in my beliefs, so I don't feel a need to debate it. Defend means to resist attack, or speak or write in favor, attempt to justify, or conduct the case for. That being said, and no offense to you, but you have a made up mind. There is nothing that I can tell you that you have not been told already. For me to debate my belief with you is a waste of time and effort for both of us.


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## Spotlite (Oct 8, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> You are just making yourself look silly. And by associations other Christians.
> When one side defends their argument against the argument of the other side that is by definition debate.
> You said you were leaving twice now. Keep your word.


 debate - argument, formal debate, dispute or disagree about.

defend - to drive danger or attack away, maintain support, prove something, take action against,


WaltL1 said:


> Wow. Just Wow.
> And you wonder why some Atheists have the attitude they do.
> If you think asking a question is an intelligent discussion then maybe you need to look up the definition of discussion too.
> You take care, I'm not getting caught up your nonsense any further than I already have.



discussion - consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 8, 2017)

bullethead said:


> "devoted to the defense of the divine origin and authority of Christianity"
> 
> From who?
> Are you just going to guess what others have to say?
> How do you defend something that you are afraid to debate?


Wow!
1. Come in here, ask questions and then claim the people who respond to the questions are interjecting themselves into the conversation.
2. Provide no argument whatsoever then claim you have your mind made up so its a waste of time.
3. Provide the definitions that totally refute what they just said and then completely ignore the definitions they just provided.
4. Claim not to care what A/As think yet ask questions.
5. See what forum they are in and then tell you that you are in the wrong place.
You just cant make this stuff up 

Really makes me miss JB participating here. He could totally stick to his beliefs but yet discuss/debate them in a completely honest and intelligent manner and take the debate here for what it is.
I follow along with what he's up to on Facebook. He's a busy guy. Son in football, cooking for church functions, lots of family activities.
Hey JB if you are out there, we miss you man! 
Post up some pics in here of that grilling you were doing for that church function! I was drooling on my keyboard just looking at them.


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## bullethead (Oct 8, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> debate - argument, formal debate, dispute or disagree about.
> 
> defend - to drive danger or attack away, maintain support, prove something, take action against,
> 
> ...


We are disputing your defense with discussion.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 8, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Wow!
> 1. Come in here, ask questions and then claim the people who respond to the questions are interjecting themselves into the conversation.
> 2. Provide no argument whatsoever then claim you have your mind made up so its a waste of time.
> 3. Provide the definitions that totally refute what they just said and then completely ignore the definitions they just provided.
> ...



1+2+3+4+5= Troll.

JB is certainly able to provide another level of conversation.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 8, 2017)

bullethead said:


> 1+2+3+4+5= Troll.
> 
> JB is certainly able to provide another level of conversation.


And using belief in God as a cover for your trolling.
Might be time to buy some asbestos underwear


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 8, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Wow!
> 1. Come in here, ask questions and then claim the people who respond to the questions are interjecting themselves into the conversation.
> 2. Provide no argument whatsoever then claim you have your mind made up so its a waste of time.
> 3. Provide the definitions that totally refute what they just said and then completely ignore the definitions they just provided.
> ...


I thought you were done?????? 

For the record, I asked a question.  I did want to know the "reason" that you think or believe the way that you do. I don't care to try to prove you right or wrong with your reason. I would have told you the reason that I believe the way I do. And in an intelligent discussion, another adult would have asked. Even in answering that, I don't feel that it needs defending/debating or trying to prove to you why I believe the way I believe. I'm sorry that you can't comprehend the difference. 


Clear as mud??????

If you believe that this sub forum is only for debate, you should get the admins to review the rules here to prevent a person from asking a question that doesn't require a debate. If all you have are sarcastic childish comments, stop replying. The hypocrisy is pathetic, everything that you accuse the Christian of is embedded in your replies. 

Have a nice day Walt. Carry on.............


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## Spotlite (Oct 8, 2017)

bullethead said:


> We are disputing your defense with discussion.



Ok at least you gave an adult reply


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## WaltL1 (Oct 8, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> I thought you were done??????
> 
> For the record, I asked a question.  I did want to know the "reason" that you think or believe the way that you do. I don't care to try to prove you right or wrong with your reason. I would have told you the reason that I believe the way I do. And in an intelligent discussion, another adult would have asked. Even in answering that, I don't feel that it needs defending/debating or trying to prove to you why I believe the way I believe. I'm sorry that you can't comprehend the difference.
> 
> ...


This is a conversation between me and Bullet.


> but you felt compelled to enter yourself into the discussion.


Please stay out of my conversations with other people.


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## bullethead (Oct 8, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Ok at least you gave an adult reply



Are the forums open to critique but not debate?


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 8, 2017)

Wow, Walt.  Spotlite really gets to you.  That's weird.  He doesn't do anything else that the other "Apologists", come and gone, didn't do.  

Spotlite, if you're still lurking I will tell you that what I get most from these discussions is the opportunity to test my ability to reason properly.  "Iron sharpening iron", as it were.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 8, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> The question is why would an atheist even care? Is your goal to really try find out if God exist or not, or continually mock the Christian?? I mean you really only attack one religious group anyway, so the answer is obvious. But are the Christians not allowed to practice freedom of religion without the atheist constantly mocking their beliefs???? Why so much hatred toward them?? At the end of the day, if the Christian is believing one big lie, they got nothing to lose, they can't get any deader, laugh at us then. But if the Christian is right.........the atheist have had a bad day lol. And most likely, this is the reason that they mock the Christian and spend so much time trying to prove that God doesn't exist. They're insecure and need that constant reassurance. They realize that the Christian doesn't have to prove that God exist, they just know that they can't prove he doesn't!



I care because I believe that the world would be better off if people stopped being religious.  Note: that's not the same thing as stopping believing in God, though they're closely tied.  I believe that there might be an evolutionary reason for our propensity to believe in God(s), but just like our instinct to rape. I believe that this instinct needs to be tamed by reason and secularism.  In a proper context, the idea of God wouldn't affect people's morality and thereby wouldn't influence how they vote. 

I really do think that if you and your children and everyone else stopped following religious dogma and adopted reason and secularism as driving principles for your morality that the world would be better off.  In that sense, I'm in effect trying to change your mind, though I feel that if I can get you to reason properly you will change your mind yourself.  That would require you to re-examine the value of believing things on faith.  If you want to have a discussion about that I would oblige.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 8, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I care because I believe that the world would be better off if people stopped being religious.  Note: that's not the same thing as stopping believing in God, though they're closely tied.  I believe that there might be an evolutionary reason for our propensity to believe in God(s), but just like our instinct to rape, I believe that this instinct needs to be tamed by reason and secularism.  In a proper context, the idea of God wouldn't affect people's morality and thereby wouldn't influence how they vote.
> 
> I really do think that if you and your children and everyone else stopped following religious dogma and adopted reason and secularism as driving principles for your morality that the world would be better off.  In that sense I'm in effect trying to change your mind, though I feel as if I can get you to reason properly you will change your mind yourself.  That would require you to re-examine the value of believing things on faith.  If you want to have a discussion about that I would oblige.


Finally, a real response.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 8, 2017)

stringmusic said:


> For me, I would consider it an assumption based on evidence, maybe not specifically for any certain god, but for god in general. Just as when I eat strawberry cake (I'm changing it to strawberry cake cause I don't like chocolate cake)  I assume something intelligent made the cake, I assume something intelligent made human DNA because of the complexity of it.



You should just say you assume a god and leave it at that. If you really followed the logic of complexity requiring a designer that very logic would lead to the conclusion that the designer who is even more complex than the design also requires a designer. As soon as you acknowledge the point that biologists like Richard Dawkins have been making that the complex arises from the simple your case for god collapses. But your belief wouldn't because it never really rested on the logic you claimed.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 8, 2017)

JustUs4All said:


> If he created a universe, an earth, a lab, life with conciseness and intelligence enough to duplicate his feat then perhaps.  But if he did he would then be that higher being, wouldn't he.



And with that you just changed the argument from complexity therefore god to existence therefore god. Why claim the goalposts were there in the first place if you're just going to move them when a scientist kicks the ball through them?

The universe exists, therefore Jesus loves me. If one can make that leap they can believe anything. Evidence and reason become irrelevant.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 8, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> You get that this a A/A/A forum right?
> Debate is what we do here.
> Put your big girl panties on and quit crying about people not agreeing with you whether its here or out there in the world.
> Christian beliefs dominated society for lots of years. Now its waaaahhhhh we are losing control.
> ...



Has to be narrow to maintain the worldview he's persecuted.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 8, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Wow, Walt.  Spotlite really gets to you.  That's weird.  He doesn't do anything else that the other "Apologists", come and gone, didn't do.
> 
> Spotlite, if you're still lurking I will tell you that what I get most from these discussions is the opportunity to test my ability to reason properly.  "Iron sharpening iron", as it were.


Yep and for what I believe to be very good reasons. If you can engage him in meaningful discussion/debate thats great and more power to you.
As for me, Ive seen enough.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 8, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> You should just say you assume a god and leave it at that. If you really followed the logic of complexity requiring a designer that very logic would lead to the conclusion that the designer who is even more complex than the design also requires a designer. As soon as you acknowledge the point that biologists like Richard Dawkins have been making that the complex arises from the simple your case for god collapses. But your belief wouldn't because it never really rested on the logic you claimed.




"But, Willard!!!"


----------



## bullethead (Oct 8, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Finally, a real response.



With no real reply.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 8, 2017)

bullethead said:


> With no real reply.




He said he doesn't want to analyze his faith.  Whatcha gonna do?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 8, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> He said he doesn't want to analyze his faith.  Whatcha gonna do?



He likes to critique others but isnt comfortable getting critiqued in return.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 8, 2017)

bullethead said:


> He likes to critique others but isnt comfortable getting critiqued in return.



Debating my faith I will not do. You can critique my personality all you want, I may or may not reply with a critique.  Dont get the two confused.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 8, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Debating my faith I will not do. You can critique my personality all you want, I may or may not reply with a critique.  Dont get the two confused.



You have to stick to your strong points


----------



## Israel (Oct 9, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> You get that this a A/A/A forum right?
> Debate is what we do here.
> Put your big girl panties on and quit crying about people not agreeing with you whether its here or out there in the world.
> Christian beliefs dominated society for lots of years. Now its waaaahhhhh we are losing control.
> ...



What you see as christian legislature is an interesting thing.

It would seem odd that _the christian_, who most often claims to see "law" has having a weakness due to the flesh can never avail to a right thinking, would seek its general imposition. 

The abandoning of the notion (that I find inherent in the faith of the Son of God) that a man can, of himself, make himself a "better" man (and that idea, of being _better_, is in itself quite questionable) would be undercut in practice if he, through legislature, through law, (and the weakness he claims of it due to man's natural estate) sought its use to bring about anything of eternal value.

The debate of whether anything at all is of "eternal value" notwithstanding (as it daily takes place here) becomes moot if, and when, the believer (who has laid his hope to it) has already sided with the worldly things of man's laws as an expedient to what he himself (by his faith claims) no man can do.

The believer must come to question the fundamentals of his faith in this. But I can make no "law" to it even in_ my own stated "must"_, (for I have no dominion over anyone's faith), but I do also have a confidence. 

And that is this, those inner hills we strive to take of being better men, whose battles we then express outwardly (by proxy with one another) were never the matter of origin to God's intervention through Christ into a man's being. 

God's interest is in having seeing men, even men who must then by sight see, that all their notions of being better and the metrics they use in that employ, are worthless.

And to resort back to law as a means of sight is to deny the basic tenet of the faith. Jesus Christ is Lord. And sight and its giving, are in His hands alone.


----------



## hummerpoo (Oct 9, 2017)

Israel said:


> What you see as christian legislature is an interesting thing.
> 
> It would seem odd that _the christian_, who most often claims to see "law" has having a weakness due to the flesh can ever avail to a right thinking, would seek its general imposition.
> 
> ...



Indeed; law is not the means of sight, but sight the means of law.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 9, 2017)

Israel said:


> What you see as christian legislature is an interesting thing.
> 
> It would seem odd that _the christian_, who most often claims to see "law" has having a weakness due to the flesh can never avail to a right thinking, would seek its general imposition.
> 
> ...


So if I am translating correctly (which is probably a long shot) I think I agree with your point of view.
However...


> What you see as christian legislature is an interesting thing.


I'm not sure it all that "interesting" or even "how I see it".
I think the examples I gave were just boring old run of the mill statements of fact.
Christianity, as the historically dominant religion, has weaved itself into laws and practices of society.
I gave examples of where whether you are a Christian or not, religious (any of them) or not, agree or not........
Your life, can and in whole lot of cases is, negatively impacted. And not in little minor ways. Who you may love, what you love to do and when....
So while even your response was tailored more to the individual - "the believer", "a man", "improve himself"..
that individual willingly joined and is a member of a club.
The Christian club. And that club chooses not to just abide by its own beliefs and practices, it has purposely placed itself in the position of being able to tell and even force other people of different religions or no religion into following or be impacted by its beliefs and practices.
And again, just a reminder -
You cant even prove your God exists. 
It seems many Christians like to separate themselves from the club when convenient as though that somehow justifies it -
"Well I hunt on Sunday, well I have a cold beer when I want, well I don't care who gets married".
As though that somehow erases the negative impact the club they joined has on other people.
These are the same folks who when talking about gun control exclaim "I'm a free man, nobody should be able to tell me what gun I can have or need".
While at the same time belonging to a club that tells, and in some cases legally forces, other people into what they should want or need.
Now, as society, who is now comprised of vastly different people and beliefs, is chipping away at that ability to control others, the Christian exclaims "they are attacking my beliefs", "Atheists hate Christians"," whats your end game", "who do you think you are trying to remove these things that we forced upon you".
Its a total lack of accepting responsibility for what goes along with their belief in God but also a complete denial of being guilty of exactly what they blame others for. 


> The believer must come to question the fundamentals of his faith in this. But I can make no "law" to it even in_ my own stated "must"_, (for I have no dominion over anyone's faith), but I do also have a confidence.


Exactly.
"No dominion over anyone's faith". And I will add "or lack thereof".
And confidence is great.
Then individually and collectively with your club, completely remove yourselves from impacting anybody else and live YOUR lives in exactly the way of what YOU have confidence in.
And don't whine about it and blame everybody else.
Seems fair to me.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 9, 2017)

Interesting, "belonging to a club that promotes it".......I can see how someone can be confused.........by default, it seems that everyone that claims Christianity falls under the umbrella of "Christianity". That's called painting with a broad brush. Seems there was this talk about "rabid atheist" and "rabid Christians". 

To clear some confusion up, I am in 100% agreement that govt should not be involved. I feel that homosexuality is sin, but I also agree that govt should not be able to restrict folks from sinning if that's what they want to do. And I believe that govt should not force me to accept it either. If I don't like it, govt should not take part under "discrimination" 

Our club also struggles with those that claim to be a member. Biblically speaking, it is called a wolf in sheep clothing. Try not to lump "those that claim" and those that really are into the same club. Because they are not the same. Hope this helps.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 9, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Interesting, "belonging to a club that promotes it".......I can see how someone can be confused.........by default, it seems that everyone that claims Christianity falls under the umbrella of "Christianity". That's called painting with a broad brush. Seems there was this talk about "rabid atheist" and "rabid Christians".
> 
> To clear some confusion up, I am in 100% agreement that govt should not be involved. I feel that homosexuality is sin, but I also agree that govt should not be able to restrict folks from sinning if that's what they want to do. And I believe that govt should not force me to accept it either. If I don't like it, govt should not take part under "discrimination"
> 
> Our club also struggles with those that claim to be a member. Biblically speaking, it is called a wolf in sheep clothing. Try not to lump "those that claim" and those that really are into the same club. Because they are not the same. Hope this helps.



How do you differentiate? What makes you sure that you are in the correct club?


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 9, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Interesting, "belonging to a club that promotes it".......I can see how someone can be confused.........by default, it seems that everyone that claims Christianity falls under the umbrella of "Christianity". That's called painting with a broad brush. Seems there was this talk about "rabid atheist" and "rabid Christians".
> 
> To clear some confusion up, I am in 100% agreement that govt should not be involved. I feel that homosexuality is sin, but I also agree that govt should not be able to restrict folks from sinning if that's what they want to do. And I believe that govt should not force me to accept it either. If I don't like it, govt should not take part under "discrimination"
> 
> Our club also struggles with those that claim to be a member. Biblically speaking, it is called a wolf in sheep clothing. Try not to lump "those that claim" and those that really are into the same club. Because they are not the same. Hope this helps.


The root word of Christianity is Christian for a reason.
If you believe in a god but not its religion, then you are a deist.
If you believe and worship in the Christian God and follow those tenets then you are a Christian and belong to Christianity.
Christianity has a certain history.
That's not painting with a broad brush.
Those are facts.

You personally may pick and choose what tenets and how closely you want to follow them but that doesn't erase the history and impact of the club you joined as a whole.
An extreme example, and no I'm not comparing the two, is a KKK member saying "well I didn't personally hang nobody so don't put me under the same umbrella as those guys".
Its not confusing at all.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 9, 2017)

bullethead said:


> How do you differentiate? What makes you sure that you are in the correct club?


What makes you sure that I am not? Does lumping everyone together make it "fact" or an assumption? Or does that mean we should just hate them all the same? Or does it mean to take a realistic look and understand, we have true and fake of everything, including atheist? How many "rabid atheist" are in your club with nothing but political motives in mind? Is it more, or less than we have of "rabid Christians" in our club with nothing but political motives?




WaltL1 said:


> The root word of Christianity is Christian for a reason.



That still does not mean that everyone claiming to be Christian, is. And from a Biblical standpoint, it means to be Christ like. Outside of that, it can mean tons of things to whomever they want it to mean.............as far back as history could go. People didn't just start getting fake in the last 200 years or so. Judas, a Disciple even sold out. 

All types of folks jump under different umbrellas for different reasons, the Christian is not exempt from that. Does the claim from thousands of illegals that they are a U.S. citizen automatically make them a citizen?? 

I understand that you have a legit gripe, but remember, everything that is done under the name of Christianity does not mean it is........


----------



## 660griz (Oct 9, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> I feel that homosexuality is sin,



So, if someone is born sexually attracted to the same sex, that is a sin?

If so, who's fault is it?


----------



## 660griz (Oct 9, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> That still does not mean that everyone claiming to be Christian, is.



How do you know? How could you possibly know?


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 9, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> What makes you sure that I am not? Does lumping everyone together make it "fact" or an assumption? Or does that mean we should just hate them all the same? Or does it mean to take a realistic look and understand, we have true and fake of everything, including atheist? How many "rabid atheist" are in your club with nothing but political motives in mind? Is it more, or less than we have of "rabid Christians" in our club with nothing but political motives?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are completely missing the point.
You keep referencing individuals. Who does or doesnt do what, what isn't or isn't done in the name of Christianity, who is or isn't a real Christian....
None of that matters.
I am talking about Christianity and its history and effects on society. Whether done for the right reason or wrong reason or by who.
Christianity put prayer in public schools.
Society took it out.
That's not an attack on YOUR views.
That's removing Christianity's influence from public schools which are comprised of people of all religions and no religions.
Is it your fault prayer was put in public schools? No.
Does it matter if it was done for the right reason or the wrong reason or by real Christians or fake Christians or or or......? Nope. 
IT HAPPENED. And it happened because of Christianity's power and influence.
To fight against that is not fighting against YOU. Its a fight against Christianity's power and influence.
You keep wanting to be the victim and its not even about you or what you personally may or may not believe.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 9, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> You are completely missing the point.
> You keep referencing individuals. Who does or doesnt do what, what isn't or isn't done in the name of Christianity, who is or isn't a real Christian....
> None of that matters.
> I am talking about Christianity and its history and effects on society. Whether done for the right reason or wrong reason or by who.
> ...



Actually, I don't feel like a victim. The only point about individuals is to say that what most are viewing as wrong or blaming on Christianity was acted on by individuals. Basically, a gun cant control who shoots it. I see your point, but the reality is, it is not Christianity, it is the abuse of Christianity. Ultimately, we have the black eye, I get that.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 9, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Actually, I don't feel like a victim. The only point about individuals is to say that what most are viewing as wrong or blaming on Christianity was acted on by individuals. Basically, a gun cant control who shoots it. I see your point, but the reality is, it is not Christianity, it is the abuse of Christianity. Ultimately, we have the black eye, I get that.





> but the reality is, it is not Christianity, it is the abuse of Christianity.


Doesn't matter.
If you know that, figure out a way to clean your house.
Since that isn't being done, society is doing it their way.
If you really do understand what was discussed and pointed out above, you should have the answers to every one of these questions.


> The question is why would an atheist even care? Is your goal to really try find out if God exist or not, or continually mock the Christian?? I mean you really only attack one religious group anyway, so the answer is obvious. But are the Christians not allowed to practice freedom of religion without the atheist constantly mocking their beliefs???? Why so much hatred toward them??


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 9, 2017)

660griz said:


> How do you know? How could you possibly know?


History..........start with Judas.  


660griz said:


> So, if someone is born sexually attracted to the same sex, that is a sin?
> 
> If so, who's fault is it?



Personally, I don't believe that anyone is born sexually attracted to anything because their brain is not fully developed. What a person becomes and how he developes has a lot to do with they see and are taught.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989000/


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 9, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> society is doing it their way.
> If you really do understand what was discussed and pointed out above, you should have the answers to every one of these questions.



Yup I got my "why" answers.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 9, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Yup I got my "why" answers.


If some of those "why" answers didn't include that maybe the questions were the problem, then you didn't really understand.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 9, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> History..........start with Judas.


 That is one. Judas was just a sinner...like every Christian.



> Personally, I don't believe that anyone is born sexually attracted to anything because their brain is not fully developed. What a person becomes and how he developes has a lot to do with they see and are taught.
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989000/


Research on gender orientation indicates that hormonal events before birth affect who we are attracted to


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 9, 2017)

660griz said:


> That is one. Judas was just a sinner...like every Christian.
> 
> 
> > Personally, I don't believe that anyone is born sexually attracted to anything because their brain is not fully developed. What a person becomes and how he developes has a lot to do with they see and are taught.
> ...


Not to mention there are plenty of gay children born into fine upstanding Christian families.
Kinda doubt they saw and were taught that being gay is a good idea.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 9, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> If some of those "why" answers didn't include that maybe the questions were the problem, then you didn't really understand.



Maybe the way they were attempted to be answered was the problem?? Let's just chalk it up as "spinning the wheels" and leave this well enough alone. Ambush gave a straight up answer without all of the mud dragging any way.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 9, 2017)

660griz said:


> Research on gender orientation indicates that hormonal events before birth affect who we are attracted to


Could be, or could be self justification. Either way, I just don't buy into it. Same as the Big Bang theory.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 9, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> What makes you sure that I am not? Does lumping everyone together make it "fact" or an assumption? Or does that mean we should just hate them all the same? Or does it mean to take a realistic look and understand, we have true and fake of everything, including atheist? How many "rabid atheist" are in your club with nothing but political motives in mind? Is it more, or less than we have of "rabid Christians" in our club with nothing but political motives?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know what club or part of a club you belong to.
You broke it down into two. I asked which one it is that you think you belong to.
Then you went off into a rant which did not address the question I asked you.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 9, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Could be, or could be self justification. Either way, I just don't buy into it. Same as the Big Bang theory.



If it wasn't observed in other species I might concede on the self justification. 
However, I do know that you cannot admit folks are born gay. That presents issues and I am really not in the mood for the soon to come hoop jumping and (SFD's favorite) intellectual dishonesty.
So, you continue to be the poster child for religion.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 9, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> History..........start with Judas.
> 
> 
> Personally, I don't believe that anyone is born sexually attracted to anything because their brain is not fully developed. What a person becomes and how he developes has a lot to do with they see and are taught.
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989000/


There is Bible History where events only take place within biblical stories, and then there is history where the events are verifiable.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 9, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> History..........start with Judas.
> 
> 
> Personally, I don't believe that anyone is born sexually attracted to anything because their brain is not fully developed. What a person becomes and how he developes has a lot to do with they see and are taught.
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989000/



Is that also true with religious beliefs?


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 9, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Could be, or could be self justification. Either way, I just don't buy into it. Same as the Big Bang theory.



But you'll buy into the Bible.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 9, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Maybe the way they were attempted to be answered was the problem?? Let's just chalk it up as "spinning the wheels" and leave this well enough alone. Ambush gave a straight up answer without all of the mud dragging any way.


Heres my problem with your attitude -
You ask questions to assumingly everybody who participates here.
Then you are very selective of the answers you want to accept or meet your approval.
So you aren't really here to try to understand or actually learn anything or you would accept ALL the answers not just the ones that meet your approval.
Then you comment on "all the hypocrisy".
And you just don't see it.
I gave discussion with you a second shot.
But you just keep confirming what I thought to begin with.
So yes lets end it here.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 9, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Maybe the way they were attempted to be answered was the problem?? Let's just chalk it up as "spinning the wheels" and leave this well enough alone. Ambush gave a straight up answer without all of the mud dragging any way.



Walt is plowing through the sippy hole and you are stuck in the mud.  As soon as the conversation comes to a point where you may have to justify your position you want to stop the conversation. You are not going to have anyone winch you out here. If you want to pretend that you stopped in the hole on purpose and enjoy being bogged down ,go ahead, but it doesn't fool us.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 9, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> But you'll buy into the Bible.


Theres no emotional attachment/security to gender orientation research or the Big Bang.
Or big prizes at the end.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 9, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Walt is plowing through the sippy hole and you are stuck in the mud.  As soon as the conversation comes to a point where you may have to justify your position you want to stop the conversation. You are not going to have anyone winch you out here. If you want to pretend that you stopped in the hole on purpose and enjoy being bogged down ,go ahead, but it doesn't fool us.



No actually, I started from the start, that I will not debate what I believe. There's no mud to get stuck in and nothing to justify to you or anyone else. I still have the same stance, I don't care if you think I'm right or not. You seem to be confused between me asking why do you attack Christians, and why don't you believe in God. The second part I didn't ask and I don't care why you don't believe in God. If you can't simply answer without mixing the two, just say so. Ambush was able to.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 9, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> No actually, I started from the start, that I will not debate what I believe. There's no mud to get stuck in and nothing to justify to you or anyone else. I still have the same stance, I don't care if you think I'm right or not. You seem to be confused between me asking why do you attack Christians, and why don't you believe in God. The second part I didn't ask and I don't care why you don't believe in God. If you can't simply answer without mixing the two, just say so. Ambush was able to.


I dont attack christians because they are christians. I live among and have family that are christians. I have nothing to do with any organization that is against christianity. 
I am also not an atheist.
I come here to discuss beliefs, why people believe or do not believe. Why I once believed and now do not. I am constantly discussing, debating, playing devils advocate to see if there is something that I missed, something that I have not heard or something new that could lead my thoughts in a new direction.
I believe it is you that is confused about asking us why we attack christians. Nobody in here attacks.
Christianity is the A#1 religion of choice in here. We discuss christianity with christians because there is no one else to ask about it.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 9, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> No actually, I started from the start, that I will not debate what I believe. There's no mud to get stuck in and nothing to justify to you or anyone else. I still have the same stance, I don't care if you think I'm right or not. You seem to be confused between me asking why do you attack Christians, and why don't you believe in God. The second part I didn't ask and I don't care why you don't believe in God. If you can't simply answer without mixing the two, just say so. Ambush was able to.



Dumb question.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 9, 2017)

bullethead said:


> I dont attack christians because they are christians. I live among and have family that are christians. I have nothing to do with any organization that is against christianity.
> I am also not an atheist.
> I come here to discuss beliefs, why people believe or do not believe. Why I once believed and now do not. I am constantly discussing, debating, playing devils advocate to see if there is something that I missed, something that I have not heard or something new that could lead my thoughts in a new direction.
> I believe it is you that is confused about asking us why we attack christians. Nobody in here attacks.
> Christianity is the A#1 religion of choice in here. We discuss christianity with christians because there is no one else to ask about it.



Ok, that's a fair adult reply.


----------



## Israel (Oct 10, 2017)

Each man to himself considers himself harmless. A mere agent of truth. And in the sense that he cannot but help express what he truly he is, (it is unavoidable) _his truth_ will be manifest.

No man can long hide his nature. Jesus knew this, knows this. Before He was sent into the world to tell his disciples "I send you forth as sheep into the midst of wolves" He himself submitted to this sending. He's not unaware of what happens. Nor unaware of what would happen to Him.
Nor whiny.

Wolves act according to their nature. They have no choice.



> That is one. Judas was just a sinner...like every Christian.



Yes, each to himself has believed their own washing of hands sufficient. Until they see what they have been washing in. And accepting of the revelation of their nature in delight of innocent blood they might also see something else. 

Something very else.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Dumb question.


Not to mention the question already assumes that we attack Christians.
Gives you a little insight into the thoughts behind the question.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Not to mention the question already assumes that we attack Christians.
> Gives you a little insight into the thoughts behind the question.



That is why it is a dumb question. It's like asking him why he beats his wife.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

Israel said:


> Each man to himself considers himself harmless. A mere agent of truth. And in the sense that he cannot but help express what he truly he is, (it is unavoidable) _his truth_ will be manifest.
> 
> No man can long hide his nature. Jesus knew this, knows this. Before He was sent into the world to tell his disciples "I send you forth as sheep into the midst of wolves" He himself submitted to this sending. He's not unaware of what happens. Nor unaware of what would happen to Him.
> Nor whiny.
> ...



In other words, religion is a clown costume.


----------



## Israel (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> In other words, religion is a clown costume.



I wouldn't disagree. Yes, the religious dress themselves.

But that is not implied anywhere in what you have chosen to quote. And wolves are not being blamed for being wolves.
After all, of all the things Jesus did not say, He _did not say this_

"Father forgive them, _some of them _don't know what they are doing"


----------



## j_seph (Oct 10, 2017)

660griz said:


> Research on gender orientation indicates that hormonal events before birth affect who we are attracted to


Proof please!
My late wife dad had a lot of feminine actions in the way he carried himself. He had a brother that was complete opposite. The brother was the oldest of 6, her dad was the baby. Growing up of course the oldest would be outside working while her dad was inside with the rest who were girls. This is the reason he carries himself the way that he does. From a baby up he was around women majority of the time. Reputation is how we learn things, so whom would he be reputating the beginning years of his life? I could not find proof myself where "Gay Gene" is in from birth. Even on studies of identical twins where one would be gay and the other not. They are identical correct?


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2017)

j_seph said:


> Proof please!
> My late wife dad had a lot of feminine actions in the way he carried himself. He had a brother that was complete opposite. The brother was the oldest of 6, her dad was the baby. Growing up of course the oldest would be outside working while her dad was inside with the rest who were girls. This is the reason he carries himself the way that he does. From a baby up he was around women majority of the time. Reputation is how we learn things, so whom would he be reputating the beginning years of his life? I could not find proof myself where "Gay Gene" is in from birth. Even on studies of identical twins where one would be gay and the other not. They are identical correct?


j_seph, with all due respect, there are pages and pages of scientific research available at your finger tips.
That will give you a bit more to go on as opposed to "my wife's dad had feminine actions"
And you aren't going to find proof of a "gay gene" if that's the only thing you are looking for.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 10, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> *Not to mention there are plenty of gay children born into fine upstanding Christian families.*
> Kinda doubt they saw and were taught that being gay is a good idea.





WaltL1 said:


> j_seph, with all due respect, there are pages and pages of scientific research available at your finger tips.
> That will give you a bit more to go on as opposed to "my wife's dad had feminine actions"
> *And you aren't going to find proof of a "gay gene" if that's the only thing you are looking for*.



If I am not going to find it "gay gene" then how gay children be born? Scientific research I have googled a little about has yet to prove such a thing as being born gay.

That was Late Wife not "Wifes" dad by the way. 

Never met you but would love to sometime, hard to tell if you are bitter or if it just seems that way as typed words show no emotion.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> But you'll buy into the Bible.



Interesting that it's funny to you that I chose to buy into the Bible rather than scientific theories that someone else put together. 

Now for you, what have you got in regard to facts, scientific proof, or evidence that YOU have completed that will explain creation? Don't refer to a link, someone's research, or someone else's theory. Let's see what YOU have done. And when you're finished rambling, you'll have nothing that YOU can stand on except what you "believe" is correct and it will all be based on someone else's work.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 10, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Interesting that it's funny to you that I chose to buy into the Bible rather than scientific theories that someone else put together.
> 
> Now for you, what have you got in regard to facts, scientific proof, or evidence that YOU have completed that will explain creation? Don't refer to a link, someone's research, or someone else's theory. Let's see what YOU have done. And when you're finished rambling, you'll have nothing that YOU can stand on except what you "believe" is correct and it will all be based on someone else's work.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Interesting that it's funny to you that I chose to buy into the Bible rather than scientific theories that someone else put together.
> 
> Now for you, what have you got in regard to facts, scientific proof, or evidence that YOU have completed that will explain creation? Don't refer to a link, someone's research, or someone else's theory. Let's see what YOU have done. And when you're finished rambling, you'll have nothing that YOU can stand on except what you "believe" is correct and it will all be based on someone else's work.



Yes it's funny that you buy into a bunch of dusty old stories created by ignorant goat herders that include talking snakes, talking donkeys, unicorns, thousand year old men, giants, zombies, people walking on water, and flying off into the air like super man. All of that comports with reality in your mind. But a theory put forward by scientists which is supported by observable evidence you just can't buy into. It's hilarious actually! Then you have the arrogance to challenge others to substantiate their position while you absolutely refuse to defend your own. You're nothing but a troll. I just hope you have the integrity to stick with your anti-science faith based position should you ever become ill. Don't avail yourself of man made medicine created through the scientific process you reject. Say a prayer, perhaps engage in some biblical ritual like that specified in Leviticus 14, and leave it in the hands of your god to decide your fate.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Yes it's funny that you buy into a bunch of dusty old stories created by ignorant goat herders that include talking snakes, talking donkeys, unicorns, thousand year old men, giants, zombies, people walking on water, and flying off into the air like super man. All of that comports with reality in your mind. But a theory put forward by scientists which is supported by observable evidence you just can't buy into. It's hilarious actually! Then you have the arrogance to challenge others to substantiate their position while you absolutely refuse to defend your own. You're nothing but a troll. I just hope you have the integrity to stick with your anti-science faith based position should you ever become ill. Don't avail yourself of man made medicine created through the scientific process you reject. Say a prayer, perhaps engage in some biblical ritual like that specified in Leviticus 14, and leave it in the hands of your god to decide your fate.



Exactly what I thought you'd have. Nothing but rambling. It was clear in the beginning that I don't debate what I believe and didn't care to debate what you believe. That was never questioned. And until you mocked at what I do believe, you were never questioned to prove anything. Have a nice day.


----------



## Spineyman (Oct 10, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Interesting that it's funny to you that I chose to buy into the Bible rather than scientific theories that someone else put together.
> 
> Now for you, what have you got in regard to facts, scientific proof, or evidence that YOU have completed that will explain creation? Don't refer to a link, someone's research, or someone else's theory. Let's see what YOU have done. And when you're finished rambling, you'll have nothing that YOU can stand on except what you "believe" is correct and it will all be based on someone else's work.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Exactly what I thought you'd have. Nothing but rambling. It was clear in the beginning that I don't debate what I believe and didn't care to debate what you believe. That was never questioned. And until you mocked at what I do believe, you were never questioned to prove anything. Have a nice day.



The floor has been left open to you to defend your position and to do so without any asinine preconditions like "only those things which you have personally discovered". You opt not to because you know your position is indefensible. I'm good with that. It's wise of you to immediately wave the white flag in this forum. Leave it to others to defend the faith. The echo chamber for those who don't want to defend their views is a couple floors up. You'll fare better there.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

If you're going to abandon reason for faith then at least be honest about it. Don't come here acting as if logic and evidence is what guides you while demonstrating that it isn't.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> If you're going to abandon reason for faith then at least be honest about it. Don't come here acting as if logic and evidence is what guides you while demonstrating that it isn't.



I believe what I believe because I have faith that it is real. I dont debate that because I have confidence in it. I don't look for debating the reason. However, I have my reasons and I won't abandon those, and I will discuss those. But I won't attempt to convince or prove my reasons. Hope that helps.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> I believe what I believe because I have faith that it is real. I dont debate that because I have confidence in it. I don't look for debating the reason. However, I have my reasons and I won't abandon those, and I will discuss those. But I won't attempt to convince or prove my reasons. Hope that helps.



Why aren't you open to the possibility you might be wrong? And why are you so determined to not defend something you claim to be so certain of?


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 10, 2017)

Spineyman said:


>




At 2:16

"If I could fit the infinite God in my 3lb. brain He would not be worth worshiping."

Yet there he is, telling us with his 3lb. brain what God is like.  If he believed what he said about God being too hard to comprehend then he would greet the audience and say "Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen.  I'm about to say some things but I don't know what I'm talking about."


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 10, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> I believe what I believe because I have faith that it is real. I dont debate that because I have confidence in it. I don't look for debating the reason. However, I have my reasons and I won't abandon those, and I will discuss those. But I won't attempt to convince or prove my reasons. Hope that helps.




I love a testimony.  I really do.  It's one of my favorite things about talking to believers, Christians in particular, because they often have quite marvelous conversion stories.

So what are your reasons?


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Why aren't you open to the possibility you might be wrong? And why are you so determined to not defend something you claim to be so certain of?



see if it clears matters, one of the many reasons that I believe in God: when my daughter was 2 years old, based on a chest exray she was diagnosed with situs inversus. After a second opinion and new exrays, same diagnosis. We had prayer and fasting (according to our faith and teachings)

Two weeks later when we returned to first doctor, new exray showed everything was in its proper place. The following week we returned to the second opinion doctor. New exray showed everything in its proper place. 

For us, God healed her and that's what we believe. The part I won't debate with any of my experiences is the "prove" part as far as how could God possibly do that, or scientifically and medically speaking that's impossible, etc. 

Scientifically and medically speaking, the doctors had no explanation. 


The reason that I feel that you and I neither one should have to defend why we believe the way we do is because with each one of us, we believe what we do because of our experience or confidence in it. And if I have that much confidence and faith in something, then I don't have room for doubt. But that's just my opinion. Another reason, my teachings tell me that God reveals himself to those that have a desire and seeking. So I feel that it's not my place to try to do that.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 10, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> see if it clears matters, one of the many reasons that I believe in God: when my daughter was 2 years old, based on a chest exray she was diagnosed with situs inversus. After a second opinion and new exrays, same diagnosis. We had prayer and fasting (according to our faith and teachings)
> 
> Two weeks later when we returned to first doctor, new exray showed everything was in its proper place. The following week we returned to the second opinion doctor. New exray showed everything in its proper place.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing. As a medical medical miracle story I give that one a 2.  It's very much like many I've heard and not all that compelling.  We don't understand the body enough to not rule that out as natural.  One of the better ones I've heard is a car passing through another car and part of the other car stuck in the engine block.  Now THAT'S miraculous!!!


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

Fair enough. You got a diagnosis that later changed and decided it was a miracle. Every time I hear these stories it reminds me of a trip to Greece. There was an ancient structure there, I believe it was in Delphi. The story goes that it was erected by a wealthy man in honor of one of the Greek gods after his wife who was blind regained her eyesight. What are we to make of that? I can think of a number of possible explanations that are more probable than that his god actually exists and healed his wife. But I have no doubt that his belief and his "experience" would be just as strong as yours. Both of you could be wrong on your conclusion. One of you must be wrong at a minimum.

I'm also left wondering why are these magical powers never used to heal amputees? Does this god just hate amputees to neglect them so? Why are these miracle healings always impossible to independently verify?

I'm also curious to know what it would take for you to conclude that you are wrong about what you think you know? If you were wrong first would you want to know and secondly how would you go about figuring out if you are right or wrong?


----------



## j_seph (Oct 10, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Thanks for sharing. As a medical medical miracle story I give that one a 2.  It's very much like many I've heard and not all that compelling.  We don't understand the body enough to not rule that out as natural.  One of the better ones I've heard is a car passing through another car and part of the other car stuck in the engine block.  Now THAT'S miraculous!!!



How would you explain a young man running from his preacher calling, refusing to do it and he has a wreck. Is thrown from the car, all instances he should not have survived. All windows broke out except one that had a cross sticker on it. Then his bible, out of everything in the car ends up beside him.

How about a little deeper. I young 10 year old girl raising up out of bed one night screaming bloody murder. Her mom runs in and she is sitting on side of bed talking in some weird language. She carrys her to living room and calls a preacher friend to come. I am on the phone with her 20 minutes after this happens as she waits on preacher. You can hear the little girl talking and it is not her that I am hearing, it is another voice. They take the girl back to the preachers house, the whole time as the little girl is mumbling. They get her there and start praying over her and anointing her and the girl is at that point saying some words in Arabic. After they are done the same little girl over an hour and a half later is back to normal. Trying to figure out how she got 20 miles down the road and how she ended up at his house. All due to an old friend of her sisters coming by and leaving her a pennant she had. That friend practiced some kind of Wicca.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Fair enough. You got a diagnosis that later changed and decided it was a miracle. Every time I hear these stories it reminds me of a trip to Greece. There was an ancient structure there, I believe it was in Delphi. The story goes that it was erected by a wealthy man in honor of one of the Greek gods after his wife who was blind regained her eyesight. What are we to make of that? I can think of a number of possible explanations that are more probable than that his god actually exists and healed his wife. But I have no doubt that his belief and his "experience" would be just as strong as yours. Both of you could be wrong on your conclusion. One of you must be wrong at a minimum.
> 
> I'm also left wondering why are these magical powers never used to heal amputees? Does this god just hate amputees to neglect them so? Why are these miracle healings always impossible to independently verify?
> 
> I'm also curious to know what it would take for you to conclude that you are wrong about what you think you know? If you were wrong first would you want to know and secondly how would you go about figuring out if you are right or wrong?


Interesting read
http://creationtoday.org/giant-speculations-the-bible-and-greek-mythology/


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> I'm also curious to know what it would take for you to conclude that you are wrong about what you think you know? If you were wrong first would you want to know and secondly how would you go about figuring out if you are right or wrong?



It's because of my previous statement, if I have enough faith and confidence in what I believe, I have no room for doubt.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 10, 2017)

j_seph said:


> How would you explain a young man running from his preacher calling, refusing to do it and he has a wreck. Is thrown from the car, all instances he should not have survived. All windows broke out except one that had a cross sticker on it. Then his bible, out of everything in the car ends up beside him.
> 
> How about a little deeper. I young 10 year old girl raising up out of bed one night screaming bloody murder. Her mom runs in and she is sitting on side of bed talking in some weird language. She carrys her to living room and calls a preacher friend to come. I am on the phone with her 20 minutes after this happens as she waits on preacher. You can hear the little girl talking and it is not her that I am hearing, it is another voice. They take the girl back to the preachers house, the whole time as the little girl is mumbling. They get her there and start praying over her and anointing her and the girl is at that point saying some words in Arabic. After they are done the same little girl over an hour and a half later is back to normal. Trying to figure out how she got 20 miles down the road and how she ended up at his house. All due to an old friend of her sisters coming by and leaving her a pennant she had. That friend practiced some kind of Wicca.



I want to be properly respectful in my response because I have a feeling that these things are dear to you, but at the same time I want to be brutally honest.  In order to do that I think it best that I speak in generalities.  

Things happen that we don't understand, many things that science can't explain.  People used to not know what lighting was and they called it God.  We know what lightning is now and we no longer call it God.  We have a long history of attributing agency incorrectly.   If I were to say that Vishnu caused all those things you said happened, how would you prove me wrong?  

Was there someone there who knew Arabic and could translate it or did it "sound" like Arabic?


----------



## j_seph (Oct 10, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I want to be properly respectful in my response because I have a feeling that these things are dear to you, but at the same time I want to be brutally honest.  In order to do that I think it best that I speak in generalities.
> 
> Things happen that we don't understand, many things that science can't explain.  People used to not know what lighting was and they called it God.  We know what lightning is now and we no longer call it God.  We have a long history of attributing agency incorrectly.   If I were to say that Vishnu caused all those things you said happened, how would you prove me wrong?
> 
> Was there someone there who knew Arabic and could translate it or did it "sound" like Arabic?


But in the 2nd book of the bible, Exodus it is called lightning, in the first book God created man. Where is there noted that people thought lightning was God?

Thank you for offering to be respectful


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 10, 2017)

j_seph said:


> But in the 2nd book of the bible, Exodus it is called lightning, in the first book God created man. Where is there noted that people thought lightning was God?
> 
> Thank you for offering to be respectful



People believed in gods long, long, long before the Bible.  They often attributed natural phenomena that they didn't understand to them.

So, was it really Arabic that the girl was speaking or did it sound like Arabic?  Was there someone that could translate?


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> It's because of my previous statement, if I have enough faith and confidence in what I believe, I have no room for doubt.



That doesn't answer the question. You're just re asserting your belief. I get that you believe it. The question is would you want to know if your belief was untrue and what method can you test your belief and the similar beliefs of others to sort the true from the false?

Also you went into that situation already believing and no result would have convinced you the belief wasn't true. Counting the hits and ignoring the misses can be used to validate any belief.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> That doesn't answer the question. You're just re asserting your belief. I get that you believe it. The question is would you want to know if your belief was untrue and what method can you test your belief and the similar beliefs of others to sort the true from the false?
> 
> Also you went into that situation already believing and no result would have convinced you the belief wasn't true. Counting the hits and ignoring the misses can be used to validate any belief.



That's the origin of superstition.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 10, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> People believed in gods long, long, long before the Bible.  They often attributed natural phenomena that they didn't understand to them.
> 
> So, was it really Arabic that the girl was speaking or did it sound like Arabic?  Was there someone that could translate?


The preacher knew some arabic thata his dad had taught him from years ago. His dad spent time in middle east working on phone lines years ago.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> That doesn't answer the question. You're just re asserting your belief. I get that you believe it. The question is would you want to know if your belief was untrue and what method can you test your belief and the similar beliefs of others to sort the true from the false?
> 
> Also you went into that situation already believing and no result would have convinced you the belief wasn't true. Counting the hits and ignoring the misses can be used to validate any belief.



I test my belief with multiple circumstances that have happened in my life. For me I guess it's different, I don't think I could be convinced that what I believe is wrong. That's just an honest statement.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 10, 2017)

j_seph said:


> The preacher knew some arabic thata his dad had taught him from years ago. His dad spent time in middle east working on phone lines years ago.



Well what was she saying?


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 10, 2017)

j_seph said:


> The preacher knew some arabic thata his dad had taught him from years ago. His dad spent time in middle east working on phone lines years ago.



What did the girl say?


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2017)

j_seph said:


> If I am not going to find it "gay gene" then how gay children be born? Scientific research I have googled a little about has yet to prove such a thing as being born gay.
> 
> That was Late Wife not "Wifes" dad by the way.
> 
> Never met you but would love to sometime, hard to tell if you are bitter or if it just seems that way as typed words show no emotion.





> Scientific research I have googled a little about has yet to prove such a thing as being born gay.


You are absolutely correct. It has not been proven for a fact that one is "born gay". But there are mountains of research of what we DO know and in what direction that leads. You are taking an incredibly complex subject that spans biology, psychology, chemistry and a host of other "ologys"...... and breaking it down to "my late wifes dad acted feminine".
As if acting feminine proves anything.
You watch football? You see the gay NFL players prancing and twirling around on the field?

j_seph, if you want to actually know about the subject, its out there and easily accessible.
But if you do, you will be forced to reexamine what you believe right now and that may be a bit of a challenge. 
Or you can stick with what you believe now.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 10, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> I test my belief with multiple circumstances that have happened in my life. For me I guess it's different, I don't think I could be convinced that what I believe is wrong. That's just an honest statement.



Would you mind sharing?


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> I test my belief with multiple circumstances that have happened in my life.



If there is no chance of falsifying the belief as you note below, they aren't really tests, it's just confirmation bias. Any belief can achieve results under those conditions.



Spotlite said:


> For me I guess it's different, I don't think I could be convinced that what I believe is wrong. That's just an honest statement.



I believe you. And you probably think that shows how well founded the belief is. To the contrary it demonstrates the opposite. True propositions welcome being tested. Being falsifiable demonstrates their strength. Those that avoid scrutiny, that are especially constructed in such a way to avoid being falsified are the ones that deserve the lowest level of confidence.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

j_seph said:


> All due to an old friend of her sisters coming by and leaving her a pennant she had. That friend practiced some kind of Wicca.





Oh my. Reading this just reminds me how far I've come. Yes I'm sure it was all due to a pendant. I remember hearing and actually believing this sort of nonsense in the 80's about Ouija boards and Dungeons & Dragons.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> If there is no chance of falsifying the belief as you note below, they aren't really tests, it's just confirmation bias. Any belief can achieve results under those conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe you. And you probably think that shows how well founded the belief is. To the contrary it demonstrates the opposite. True propositions welcome being tested. Being falsifiable demonstrates their strength. Those that avoid scrutiny, that are especially constructed in such a way to avoid being falsified are the ones that deserve the lowest level of confidence.


I can understand that, but..........you have to realize that I've seen my life with it, and without it. I have no fear of scrutiny, because I have faced it many times. I've battled it out here many years ago, many times. I've battled it out with family, friends, co-workers, etc. I just didn't get into this recently. I have a different reason to not debate it other than fear of scrutiny. For me, it's been tested more than a few times.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 10, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> I can understand that, but..........you have to realize that I've seen my life with it, and without it. I have no fear of scrutiny, because I have faced it many times. I've battled it out here many years ago, many times. I've battled it out with family, friends, co-workers, etc. I just didn't get into this recently. I have a different reason to not debate it other than fear of scrutiny. For me, it's been tested more than a few times.



Then can you tell me why you think I believe what I do and why?


----------



## red neck richie (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Local sheriff has this on his patrol cars. Leaves me wondering why his deputies are still carrying guns.


He does and I do as well get over it bro. You have the spirituality of a rock. Why does it bother you?


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> He does and I do as well get over it bro. You have the spirituality of a rock. Why does it bother you?



I expect more of those I'm funding. If there was any actual evidence it did anything to protect officers I would be all for it but there's not. Like I said before, a deputy with that on his car got shot in the face. And like Walt said it's nothing more than a feel good statement for the superstitious. Has no place on a government vehicle.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 10, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Then can you tell me why you think I believe what I do and why?



Out of pure speculation and based on past discussions that I've had, I think you believe what you do because noone "can prove to you that God exist"..........and that becomes the argument because there's two sides of that fence, you "can't prove to us that he doesn't"


----------



## red neck richie (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> I expect more of those I'm funding. If there was any actual evidence it did anything to protect officers I would be all for it but there's not. Like I said before, a deputy with that on his car got shot in the face. And like Walt said it's nothing more than a feel good statement for the superstitious. Has no place on a government vehicle.



I'm funding as well and personally know a few Georgia state patrol officers. I know who I want to show up if there is an issue. I would prefer a man that knows the Lord over say someone like you.


----------



## red neck richie (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> I expect more of those I'm funding. If there was any actual evidence it did anything to protect officers I would be all for it but there's not. Like I said before, a deputy with that on his car got shot in the face. And like Walt said it's nothing more than a feel good statement for the superstitious. Has no place on a government vehicle.



Its a superstition to you because you don't have a relationship with God.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 10, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Out of pure speculation and based on past discussions that I've had, I think you believe what you do because noone "can prove to you that God exist"..........and that becomes the argument because there's two sides of that fence, you "can't prove to us that he doesn't"


Using that logic, every god exists, every creature in folklore exists, and anything that a person can dream up is reality in your world. 

Your gods god is really something to behold.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 10, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I'm funding as well and personally know a few Georgia state patrol officers. I know who I want to show up if there is an issue. I would prefer a man that knows the Lord over say someone like you.



Easily swayed.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I'm funding as well and personally know a few Georgia state patrol officers. I know who I want to show up if there is an issue. I would prefer a man that knows the Lord over say someone like you.



Good for you. I don't really care what religion they are as long as it doesn't interfere with them doing their job.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Using that logic, every god exists, every creature in folklore exists, and anything that a person can dream up is reality in your world.
> 
> Your gods god is really something to behold.



"Can't prove he doesn't exist!"

Like we've never heard that one before. How about proving the Bible makes false claims?


----------



## red neck richie (Oct 10, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Using that logic, every god exists, every creature in folklore exists, and anything that a person can dream up is reality in your world.
> 
> Your gods god is really something to behold.



Bullet throw the logic of man out the window. I spoke to a man this weekend and his wife had lupus. There is no cure for lupus known to man. She was prayed for and laid hands on and is know lupus free. You can say what you want about the power of the mind but as for me and mine be trust in God.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I'm funding as well and personally know a few Georgia state patrol officers. I know who I want to show up if there is an issue. I would prefer a man that knows the Lord over say someone like you.


And what qualities do you think "a man that knows the Lord" has that "someone like him" wouldn't have that would make them your choice if there is an issue?


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Its a superstition to you because you don't have a relationship with God.



Neither do you.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 10, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Bullet throw the logic of man out the window. I spoke to a man this weekend and his wife had lupus. There is no cure for lupus known to man. She was prayed for and laid hands on and is know lupus free. You can say what you want about the power of the mind but as for me and mine be trust in God.



Easily duped


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Bullet throw the logic of man out the window. I spoke to a man this weekend and his wife had lupus. There is no cure for lupus known to man. She was prayed for and laid hands on and is know lupus free. You can say what you want about the power of the mind but as for me and mine be trust in God.



Easy to say when you're healthy. If you ever come down with cancer my money says you'll be going to the doctor and getting treatment.


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## red neck richie (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Neither do you.



Atlas = spiritually dead.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 10, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> And what qualities do you think "a man that knows the Lord" has that "someone like him" wouldn't have that would make them your choice if there is an issue?



Apparently Lord knowin men dont cheat, steal, sleep around, imbezzle, lie, murder, rape, beat their wives,  etc etc etc. But I am sure Richie knows they do but is comfortable hanging around those types.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Atlas = spiritually dead.



Richie = deluded

You're being dishonest with yourself. Deep down in your gut you know it. Nobody is there whispering in your ear. You're just having an internal dialogue. You want it to be true. You want there to be more after this life. You need to believe. But deep down you know better.


----------



## red neck richie (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Easy to say when you're healthy. If you ever come down with cancer my money says you'll be going to the doctor and getting treatment.



Of course just because you have trust  in God doesn't mean your stupid. God uses man to do his will.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 10, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Atlas = spiritually dead.



Has he ever claimed orherwise?

God doesn't want him. Take it up with God.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Of course just because you have trust  in God doesn't mean your stupid. God uses man to do his will.



 That's what I thought.


----------



## red neck richie (Oct 10, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Has he ever claimed orherwise?
> 
> God doesn't want him. Take it up with God.



God wants him that's were your mistaken.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 10, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> God wants him that's were your mistaken.



Now wait, your going in the usual circle again. God uses man to carry out his will is your claim and then you harass atlas for doing what the grand puppeteer is willing him to do.

Which is it Rich?
Do we have free will or do we do what god wills?


----------



## red neck richie (Oct 10, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Now wait, your going in the usual circle again. God uses man to carry out his will is your claim and then you harass atlas for doing what the grand puppeteer is willing him to do.
> 
> Which is it Rich?
> Do we have free will or do we do what god wills?


Both my brother.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

I don't recall Jesus ever sending a sick person to a doctor and then taking credit for the doctors work. Maybe you can cite the scripture where he did that. He is claimed to have performed many healings himself and told his followers all of these things I do you also will do and greater works. The Bible also says whatever you ask in his name it SHALL be done. So save your money and put your faith in him where you say it is.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 10, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Both my brother.



Oh, right, gotcha. Go with what fits at the time.
I'd love to go through life like that but I have a conscience.


----------



## red neck richie (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> I don't recall Jesus ever sending a sick person to a doctor and then taking credit for the doctors work. Maybe you can cite the scripture where he did that. He is claimed to have performed many healings himself and told his followers all of these things I do you also will do and greater works. The Bible also says whatever you ask in his name it SHALL be done. So save your money and put your faith in him where you say it is.



Why would you send a sick person to a doctor when he was already healed?


----------



## red neck richie (Oct 10, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Oh, right, gotcha. Go with what fits at the time.
> I'd love to go through life like that but I have a conscience.



It fits your time and conscience as well based on what you believe does it not?


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Why would you send a sick person to a doctor when he was already healed?



Exactly my point.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 10, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> It fits your time and conscience as well based on what you believe does it not?



No, free will and predestination do not fit.
Saying both exist is another cop-out excuse.


----------



## red neck richie (Oct 10, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> It fits your time and conscience as well based on what you believe does it not?



Bullet and Atlas get out of the box of Mans understanding and explore the realm of the supernatural. Explore your heart explore your soul.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Bullet and Atlas get out of the box of Mans understanding and explore the realm of the supernatural. Explore your heart explore your soul.



You mean like these guys did?

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/flagellants.htm

No thanks. No good ever came from abandoning reason for woo woo.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2017)

But thanks for participating Richie. You guys make these discussions interesting even if the same arguments become repetitive.


----------



## red neck richie (Oct 10, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> But thanks for participating Richie. You guys make these discussions interesting even if the same arguments become repetitive.


I love you too bro. I hope to see you in the kingdom.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 10, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Using that logic, every god exists, every creature in folklore exists, and anything that a person can dream up is reality in your world.
> 
> Your gods god is really something to behold.


Well....for those that believe in their gods, their god is real...........to them. To the Muslims, Allah is real, to me my God is real, to you none of them are...........we can both agree that santa isn`t


atlashunter said:


> "Can't prove he doesn't exist!"
> 
> Like we've never heard that one before. How about proving the Bible makes false claims?





atlashunter said:


> But thanks for participating Richie. You guys make these discussions interesting even if the same arguments become repetitive.



Both of your statements are very valid points, and that's why I say to debate is useless. You and I both, and everyone else have heard the same repetitive arguments from both sides. It is evident that the atheist doesn't fully understand the religious beliefs from some of their statements here, and obviously, I don't fully understand the atheist stance. That being said, truce


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 11, 2017)

Richie,
When you get a minute please address this -


> Originally Posted by red neck richie
> I'm funding as well and personally know a few Georgia state patrol officers. I know who I want to show up if there is an issue. I would prefer a man that knows the Lord over say someone like you





> And what qualities do you think "a man that knows the Lord" has that "someone like him" wouldn't have that would make them your choice if there is an issue?



And I'm not questioning your choice. You can prefer whoever you want to come to your aid if there is an issue. I'm just curious if say -
The issue you are having is a car wreck. One of your family members is seriously injured and needs immediate medical attention or their life is in danger. Two cars stop to see if they can help. In one car the guy is an off duty emergency room doctor. And is "someone like Atlas". 
In the other car the guy is a vacuum salesman. And is a God fearing, good Christian.
I'm really curious why you would prefer the "one who knows the Lord" to be the one to try to help your loved one?


----------



## Israel (Oct 11, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Thanks for sharing. As a medical medical miracle story I give that one a 2.  It's very much like many I've heard and not all that compelling.  We don't understand the body enough to not rule that out as natural.  One of the better ones I've heard is a car passing through another car and part of the other car stuck in the engine block.  Now THAT'S miraculous!!!



It's telling that you use GEM's testimony to diminish Spotlites.


You would inject a competition where there is none.

But, that's what the spirit that moves you has done from the beginning.

Your ill use of both men does not go unseen.

I'm in therapy myself, there's a friendly physician who can help us both.


----------



## welderguy (Oct 11, 2017)

bullethead said:


> No, free will and predestination do not fit.
> Saying both exist is another cop-out excuse.



Philippians 2:13
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This is all of our reality in a nutshell.
But it's a BIG nutshell.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 11, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Philippians 2:13
> 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
> 
> This is all of our reality in a nutshell.
> But it's a BIG nutshell.


Its your reality in a nutshell.
Which is fine. But it also means you accept all the horrific things that some people do as being in "His good pleasure".
And its not even a speed bump to you.
That is seriously twisted in my opinion 
And if it was any other subject except God, you would think it was twisted too.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 11, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Its your reality in a nutshell.
> Which is fine. But it also means you accept all the horrific things that some people do as being in "His good pleasure".
> And its not even a speed bump to you.
> That is seriously twisted in my opinion
> And if it was any other subject except God, you would think it was twisted too.



Maybe welder uses that as a convenient way to try to get out of the contradiction bullet pointed out but I doubt it would sell well to his congregation to suggest that homosexuals in the act are being guided by the god they worship.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 11, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> I can understand that, but..........you have to realize that I've seen my life with it, and without it. I have no fear of scrutiny, because I have faced it many times. I've battled it out here many years ago, many times. I've battled it out with family, friends, co-workers, etc. I just didn't get into this recently. I have a different reason to not debate it other than fear of scrutiny. For me, it's been tested more than a few times.



If you were born in a different part of the world, with different parents, you would have total faith in some other supernatural deity. Lots of folks still have and need the God gene.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 11, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Out of pure speculation and based on past discussions that I've had, I think you believe what you do because noone "can prove to you that God exist"..........and that becomes the argument because there's two sides of that fence, you "can't prove to us that he doesn't"



No. It is a one sided fence. If you claim God exist but can't prove it. I have to do absolutely nothing. You did it for me.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 11, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> God uses man to do his will.



Well, isn't that convenient. That way, he never has to show up and straighten out the mess he created. 

Just another excuse to control the masses and explain why God never seems to really do anything. 

All makes sense when you consider where God came from. Man...


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 11, 2017)

660griz said:


> If you were born in a different part of the world, with different parents, you would have total faith in some other supernatural deity. Lots of folks still have and need the God gene.


But I wasn't. Why do you think you'd be exempt from the same? You could have  been born in a different country with different parents and became a Pastor of a local church. 


660griz said:


> No. It is a one sided fence. If you claim God exist but can't prove it. I have to do absolutely nothing. You did it for me.



Nope. Still two sides. You claim God doesn't exist, prove it.


----------



## welderguy (Oct 11, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> Maybe welder uses that as a convenient way to try to get out of the contradiction bullet pointed out but I doubt it would sell well to his congregation to suggest that homosexuals in the act are being guided by the god they worship.



There's no contradiction. God created some for a certain purpose and others for another purpose.

All of it is for His good pleasure. He's the Creator and He can do that,justly, with His creation. It's called sovereignty.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 11, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> But I wasn't. Why do you think you'd be exempt from the same? You could have  been born in a different country with different parents and became a Pastor of a local church.


I would still come to the same rational conclusion because I have looked at all religions and realized it was a sham. 



> Nope. Still two sides. You claim God doesn't exist, prove it.


Like God, just because you say it doesn't mean it is true.
The burden of proof is on the individual proposing existence, not the one questioning existence. 

You are trying to shift the burden of proof. Not going to happen. You say there is a God, I don't believe you. Until you, or God, show different. I can carry on living life to the fullest.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 11, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> You claim God doesn't exist, prove it.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ~Christopher Hitchens


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 11, 2017)

660griz said:


> I would still come to the same rational conclusion You say there is a God, I don't believe you.


And I wouldn't come to the same conclusion that I already have, if the same rules applied to me? And I'm ok if you don't believe. 


atlashunter said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot
> 
> “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ~Christopher Hitchens


 which is mans definition. Based on.........


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 11, 2017)

To borrow a phrase.....
Good Lord!


----------



## bullethead (Oct 11, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Bullet and Atlas get out of the box of Mans understanding and explore the realm of the supernatural. Explore your heart explore your soul.



Richie, I have been there and done that. I am still open  to contact from any spirit or supernatural being. The problem is that I do need that contact enough to convince myself that it has happened.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 11, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Philippians 2:13
> 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
> 
> This is all of our reality in a nutshell.
> But it's a BIG nutshell.



I dont take any stock in a book filled with errors, lies, fables, folklore,parables, inaccurate science, inaccurate history, inaccurate geography and the writings of men telling others about their god.


----------



## j_seph (Oct 11, 2017)

Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence 
for God's existence? No
 arm
-
twisting. No statements of, "You just have to 
believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons 
which suggest that God exists.
But first consider this. When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, 
the Bible says that the
re are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but 
they have suppressed the truth about God.
1
 On the other hand, for those 
who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; 
when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found 
by you."
2
 Before you 
look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, 
If God does exist, would I want to know him?
Here then, are some reasons to consider...
1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who no
t 
only created our universe, but sustains it today.
Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:
The Earth
...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly 
nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were 
smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its 
atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.
3
 Earth is
 the only known planet equipped with an 
atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.
The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the 
temperature swings we encounter, roughly 
-
30 degrees to +120 degree
s. If 
the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer 
and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to 
the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect 
distance from the su
n while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 
67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the 
Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.
And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its 
gr
avitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not 
stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.
4
Water
...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thi
ng can survive without it. Plants, 
animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two
-
thirds of the human body is water). You'll 
see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:
It has wide margin between its boiling point and fre
ezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment 
of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.
W
ater is a universal solvent. This property of water means that various chemicals, minerals and nutrients 
2
can be car
ried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.
5
Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water 
enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.
Water has a unique
 surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing 
life
-
giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.
Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.
Ninety
-
seven percent of 
the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed 
which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation 
takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily
 moved by the wind to 
disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply 
that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.
6
The human brain
...simultaneously processes an amaz
ing amount of information. Your brain takes in all 
the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, 
the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain hold
s 
and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the 
ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of 
the muscles in your hands.
The human brain processe
s more than a million messages a second.
7
 Your 
brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively 
unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate 
effectively in your world. The brain functions differentl
y than other organs. 
There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to 
dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.
The eye
...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic 
focusing and handles an a
stounding 1.5 million messages 
--
 simultaneously.
8
 Evolution focuses on 
mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the 
initial source of the eye or the brain 
--
 the start of living organisms from no
nliving matter.
2. Does God exist? The universe had a start 
-
 what caused it?
Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light, which 
we now call the Big Bang. This was the singular start to everything that e
xists: the beginning of the 
universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself.
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self
-
described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has 
happened in the Universe was planted in that first 
instant; every star, every planet and every living 
creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of 
the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to 
ha
ppen."
9
Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in Physics, said at the moment of this explosion, "the universe was 
about a hundred thousands million degrees Centigrade...and the universe was filled with light."
10
The universe has not always existed. It had a st
art...what caused that? Scientists have no explanation for 
3
the sudden explosion of light and matter.
3. Does God exist? The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?
Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day afte
r day: gravity remains 
consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and 
the speed of light doesn't change 
--
 on earth or in galaxies far from us.
How is it that we can identify laws of nature that
never
 change? Why is the universe so orderly, so 
reliable?
"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a 
universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonis
hment 
springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a 
universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which 
things pop in and out of existence."
11
Rich
ard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical 
is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."
12
4. Does God exist? The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.
All instruc
tion, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes 
an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of 
our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature 
computer program? As you m
ay know, a computer program is made up of 
ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell 
the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very 
similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbrevia
te as A, T, G, 
and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: 
CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billion of these 
letters in every human cell!!
Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA 
instructs the 
cell. DNA is a three
-
billion
-
lettered program telling the cell to act 
in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.
13
Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program 
wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. 
These are 
chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the 
person's body should develop.
Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when 
programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, 
precise information like this, without 
someone intentionally constructing it.
5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly 
initiating and seeking for us to come to him.
I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, 
the issue of people believing in God bothered me 
greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting 
something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I 
4
attribute
d my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was 
completely ill
-
founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in 
God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince
 me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become 
free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the 
issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.
I didn't realize that the reason the to
pic of God weighed so heavily on my 
mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that 
God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know 
him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the 
qu
estion of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape 
thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge 
God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the 
underlying reason atheist
s are bothered by people believing in God is 
because God is actively pursuing them.
I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, 
wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being p
ursued." C.S. Lewis said he 
remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the 
steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted 
that God was God, and kn
elt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in 
all of England."
Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no 
expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence.
 Yet over the following several months, I 
became amazed by his love for me.
6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most 
specific picture of God revealing himself to us.
Why Jesus? Look throughout the major worl
d religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, 
Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be 
equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God 
exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the 
position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had 
seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in
 him, believed in the Father.
He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of 
life."
14
 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them 
from hab
its of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other 
teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my 
words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, 
the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father 
but through me."
15
What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine?
 He did what people can't do. Jesus performed 
miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from
 the dead. He had 
power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He 
performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some 
friends. People everywhere follow
ed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the 
miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me 
based on the miracles you're seeing.
16
5
Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware 
of our self
-
centeredness and shortcomings, yet 
deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although God views us as sinners, worthy of 
his punishment, his love for us ruled and God came up with a different plan. God himself took on the 
form 
of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but 
many loving fathers would gladly trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible 
says that the reason we would love God is because he first
 loved us.
Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to humanity, only through 
Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. 
Jesus proves a divine heart of love, m
eeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus' death 
and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely 
loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have co
ntinued my 
faithfulness to you."
17
 This is God, in action.
Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told that "God so loved the world 
that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal lif
e."
18
God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his 
existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique 
chemical properties of water, the human bra
in, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, 
the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known 
through Jesus Christ. If you need to know more about Jesus and reasons to believe in him, please 
see: 
Beyond Blind Faith
.
If you want to begin a relationship with God now, you can.
This is your decision, no coercion here. But if you want to be forgiven by God and come into a 
relationship 
with him, you can do so right now by asking him to forgive you and come into your life. Jesus 
said, "Behold, I stand at the door [of your heart] and knock. He who hears my voice and opens the door, I 
will come into him [or her]."
19
 If you want to do this, 
but aren't sure how to put it into words, this may help: 
"Jesus, thank you for dying for my sins. You know my life and that I need to be forgiven. I ask you to 
forgive me right now and come into my life. I want to know you in a real way. Come into my life 
now. 
Thank you that you wanted a relationship with me. Amen."
God views your relationship with him as permanent. Referring to all those who believe in him, Jesus 
Christ said of us, "I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they sh
all never 
perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand."
20
Looking at all these facts, one can conclude that a loving God does exist and can be known in an 
intimate, personal way.

Footnotes: (1) Romans 1:19-21 (2) Jeremiah 29:13-14 (3) R.E.D. Clark, Creation (London: Tyndale Press, 1946), p. 20 (4) The Wonders of God's Creation, Moody Institute of Science (Chicago, IL) (5) Ibid. (6) Ibid. (7) Ibid. (8) Hugh Davson, Physiology of the Eye, 5th ed (New York: McGraw Hill, 1991) (9) Robert Jastrow; "Message from Professor Robert Jastrow"; LeaderU.com; 2002. (10) Steven Weinberg; The First Three Minutes: A Modern View of the Origin of the Universe; (Basic Books,1988); p 5. (11) Dinesh D'Souza, What's So Great about Christianity; (Regnery Publishing, Inc, 2007, chapter 11). (12) Richard Feynman, The Meaning of It All: Thoughts of a Citizen-Scientist (New York: BasicBooks, 1998), 43. (13) Francis S. Collins, director of the Human Genome Project, and author of The Language of God, (Free Press, New York, NY), 2006 (14) John 8:12 (15) John 14:6 (16) John 14:11 (17) Jeremiah 31:3 (18) John 3:16 (10) Revelation 3:20 (20) John 10:27-29


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## bullethead (Oct 11, 2017)

j_seph said:


> Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence
> for God's existence? No
> arm
> -
> ...


Those are not facts that prove any god exists let alone one specific god that you also just happen to worship. 
How about your god comes down to a hospital and grows an appendage on an amputee?
How come that has not happened?


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## j_seph (Oct 11, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Those are not facts that prove any god exists let alone one specific god that you also just happen to worship.
> How about your god comes down to a hospital and grows an appendage on an amputee?
> How come that has not happened?


If I knew the answer then I would give it to you. Just as spotlight has said. Ya'll will believe what you want as will I. I can tell reasons I feel the way I do just as you can. It will take a greater being than myself to change your opinion and as for myself and my family, no man will change my belief. Best I can offer any of ya'll is prayer, whether yens believe in it or not, whether I get mocked for it or not. If this site exist 5 years down the road who knows, may see you on here as an apologetic however you will find me in the same state of belief I am in now. Y'all have a blessed day.


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## atlashunter (Oct 11, 2017)

j_seph said:


> If I knew the answer then I would give it to you.



What he asked is what we would expect of a deity that doesn't exist. That's the answer. It's only a mystery for the believer. But you'll still believe anyway.


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## bullethead (Oct 11, 2017)

j_seph said:


> If I knew the answer then I would give it to you. Just as spotlight has said. Ya'll will believe what you want as will I. I can tell reasons I feel the way I do just as you can. It will take a greater being than myself to change your opinion and as for myself and my family, no man will change my belief. Best I can offer any of ya'll is prayer, whether yens believe in it or not, whether I get mocked for it or not. If this site exist 5 years down the road who knows, may see you on here as an apologetic however you will find me in the same state of belief I am in now. Y'all have a blessed day.


I will give you the answer.
Whatever you worship only exists in your mind. 
I dont think that is necessarily a bad thing.
But please do not use assertions and gaps as "facts".


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## WaltL1 (Oct 11, 2017)

j_seph said:


> If I knew the answer then I would give it to you. Just as spotlight has said. Ya'll will believe what you want as will I. I can tell reasons I feel the way I do just as you can. It will take a greater being than myself to change your opinion and as for myself and my family, no man will change my belief. Best I can offer any of ya'll is prayer, whether yens believe in it or not, whether I get mocked for it or not. If this site exist 5 years down the road who knows, may see you on here as an apologetic however you will find me in the same state of belief I am in now. Y'all have a blessed day.


Perfectly indoctrinated.
I don't want to know now, I don't want to know then, I just don't want to know. And by god I'm proud of that.
Another Christianity success story. Congrats.


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## ambush80 (Oct 11, 2017)

Israel said:


> It's telling that you use GEM's testimony to diminish Spotlites.
> 
> 
> You would inject a competition where there is none.
> ...



One happens all the time (unknown cause of spontaneous healing).  One is truly miraculous as it describes something profoundly at odds with what we understand of the physical world.  

That's quite judgement on your part as to my "ill intent".  You're certainly entitled.  Just recognize that you could truly be wrong. 

I am of the opinion that whatever you perceive as your sickness could be healed any number of ways other than the way that you chose and in all honesty, if the "healing" you're prescribing comes with the side effects that believers display I'd rather stay sick.


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## Spotlite (Oct 11, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Just recognize that you could truly be wrong.
> 
> I am of the opinion.



Just saying that it has to be miserable living with the mentality that everything could be wrong. Not feeling secure in anything........other than an opinion.


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## red neck richie (Oct 11, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Richie,
> When you get a minute please address this -
> 
> 
> ...



Just because I know who he serves. I know where his morals come from and if they are in need of prayer or ask for it he can give it. There is power in prayer and in the name of Jesus. But I'm not saying I would turn down help from a non believer we don't always get what we prefer.


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## ambush80 (Oct 11, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Just saying that it has to be miserable living with the mentality that everything could be wrong. Not feeling secure in anything........other than an opinion.



That's right.  It's treacherous.  But it's the truth.  

You learn how to live with it through reason instead of faith.  

What do you know with God like certainty that's absolutely true?


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## atlashunter (Oct 11, 2017)

Spotlite said:


> Just saying that it has to be miserable living with the mentality that everything could be wrong. Not feeling secure in anything........other than an opinion.



The truly insecure man is the one too fearful to admit his own fallibility or be open to seeking out and correcting where he is wrong. The people in my life who were the most staunch in their religious beliefs also tended to be the ones who were the least interested in pursuing knowledge about how nature works or putting their own beliefs to the test in a way that might actually invalidate them. They claimed absolute certainty but their mindset and behavior told another story.


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## 660griz (Oct 12, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> They claimed absolute certainty but their mindset and behavior told another story.



Amen! They put lightning rods on churches, carry guns for protection, where helmets on side by sides, don't ride motorcycles around Atlanta for fear of getting run over. Cry at funerals. Pray for the sick. 
All trying to change God's will.

Deep down, they know the truth. When life is over, it's over. They are just playing the odds. What if there is an afterlife? They don't want to be totally left out of that either.


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## j_seph (Oct 12, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> The truly insecure man is the one too fearful to admit his own fallibility or be open to seeking out and correcting where he is wrong. The people in my life who were the most staunch in their religious beliefs also tended to be the ones who were the least interested in pursuing knowledge about how nature works or putting their own beliefs to the test in a way that might actually invalidate them. They claimed absolute certainty but their mindset and behavior told another story.


Does your dad still pastor a church or preach God's word


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## atlashunter (Oct 12, 2017)

j_seph said:


> Does your dad still pastor a church or preach God's word



He's not a pastor but he is still a Christian.


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## j_seph (Oct 12, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> He's not a pastor but he is still a Christian.


Awesome, does your views and his cause conflict at Christmas and Thanksgiving get togethers? Just imagine it would be hard on you and him.


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## atlashunter (Oct 12, 2017)

j_seph said:


> Awesome, does your views and his cause conflict at Christmas and Thanksgiving get togethers? Just imagine it would be hard on you and him.



It doesn't get discussed. We know where the other stands.


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## atlashunter (Oct 12, 2017)

j_seph,

You said Jesus showed God to be gentle and loving. Leaving aside how that contradicts what we know about the god of the Old Testament... welderguy says God leads people astray for his own pleasure. Can you explain how that is gentle or loving?


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## j_seph (Oct 12, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> j_seph,
> 
> You said Jesus showed God to be gentle and loving. Leaving aside how that contradicts what we know about the god of the Old Testament... welderguy says God leads people astray for his own pleasure. Can you explain how that is gentle or loving?


I do not remember when or where I said that but I also cannot say God leads people astray(1. away from the correct path or direction.
2.into error or morally questionable behavior) for his own pleasure. We ourselves may follow or go after earthly things on our own accord or even be led by others but my God has never led me astray. I for many years did things without thought of seeking counsel with the Lord first and foremost and it turned into a mess. I have followed others who did not know God and again ended up in a mess. Just as an earthly dad, will do his best to lead his children on a correct path. Example and no harm intended, your great granddad, your granddad, and your dad from what I gathered all 3 preached and are Godly men. You yourself I presume from your post as well was the same. They did not lead you down the path you are on now, you did that of your own doing. God didn't want you to go that path, that was your own freewill. It is up to you to accept Christ and follow him, will our loving God punish us.............yes, what father does not punish one of their children? I am not to judge what Welderguy believes, my bible and if he is Christian his bible says the same thing to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.  I know of 3 times since I started asking the Lord to get my life back on track that I knew I should have went to church and each time those 3 evenings it was rough, rough and nothing I had wanted to get accomplished got accomplished. Hence what I wanted, not what needed to be accomplished. I know where I was at in my walk and where I am at now and have enough faith that I can and will continue to testify my savior as Jesus Christ. 

I keep reading the cop-out about wait until you get sick or cancer and your God does not answer you back or however it has been worded many times. See I watched my late wife battle cancer for 10 years. She never questioned God for what she went through but gave him credit that he was her savior and that he had a plan. She cried one time, one time in 10 years over this and then it was only because we could not have children. My present life is part of that plan. The 100's of people we met, that we were able to encourage and give some faith to, some emotional support for and physical support for...........part of his plan. We would have never have met these people inside of a cancer clinic without the first diagnoses. Why did she battle a brain tumor for 10 years, yet we met many with brain tumors that went on out of this life during those 10 years. Why would she live for 10 years with it while others last 4 to 6 months, same treatments?

Some of y'all in this forum may think I hate or cannot stand atheists. I don't because I know there is still a hope for each one but then again that is your decision, not God's. My wife I have now had a crush on me from grade school through Highschool. Did she ever let me know this? Not once, I was not interested in her so therefore I never went her way and she waited for me to talk to or notice her. God loves you but if your not interested in that relationship with him, why should he chase you. This was all over the place but that will be okay. Hope you have great day.


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## 660griz (Oct 12, 2017)

j_seph said:


> God loves you but if your not interested in that relationship with him, why should he chase you. This was all over the place but that will be okay. Hope you have great day.



Uh, to save me from eternity in H311

Just a thought.


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## atlashunter (Oct 12, 2017)

j_seph said:


> I do not remember when or where I said that but I also cannot say God leads people astray(1. away from the correct path or direction.
> 2.into error or morally questionable behavior) for his own pleasure.



You said it in post 233.

Welderguy said it and provided a bible verse to support his claim. I assume you two are singing from the same sheet of music being you have the same guidebook and both claim to be in direct communication with the creator of the universe.


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## j_seph (Oct 12, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Philippians 2:13
> 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
> 
> This is all of our reality in a nutshell.
> But it's a BIG nutshell.





welderguy said:


> There's no contradiction. God created some for a certain purpose and others for another purpose.
> 
> All of it is for His good pleasure. He's the Creator and He can do that,justly, with His creation. It's called sovereignty.



my post came from a copy paste from here so I did not type the words https://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

Funny i mentioned the working out of our own salvation and it is vs 12 and I had not seen his post. 
sovereignty
1 obsolete :supreme excellence or an example of it
2 a :supreme power especially over a body politic
b :freedom from external control 
c :controlling influence
I do not read where God can lead us astray! God is obsolete, is a supreme power, he is free from external control, and as the verse he posted the controlling influence. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

a. For it is God who works in you: Paul here gave the reason why Christians must work out their salvation with fear and trembling - because God is working in them.

i. We take comfort in it: God who works in you. "Grace all-sufficient dwells in you, believer. There is a living well within you springing up; use the bucket, then; keep on drawing; you will never exhaust it; there is a living source within." (Spurgeon)

b. God … works in you: The idea is that since God has done and is doing a work in the Christian, the Christian therefore has a greater responsibility to work diligently with fear and trembling regarding their own salvation and walk with the Lord. God's work in us increases our responsibility; it doesn't lessen it in any way.

i. Those that take God's sovereignty and working and use them as an excuse for inaction and lethargy are like the wicked and lazy servant of Matthew 25:24-30.

ii. Those that are really God's servants use their understanding of His sovereignty and omnipotence as a motivation for greater, more dedicated service to Him.

c. Both to will and to do: God's work in us extends to the transformation of our will, as well as changing our actions (to do). Yet in light of the original exhortation to work out your own salvation, this is not a passive transaction.

d. For His good pleasure: This is the motive behind God's work in our life. He does so because it gives Him pleasure to do it. 

Go down to verses 
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.


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## atlashunter (Oct 12, 2017)

j_seph said:


> my post came from a copy paste from here so I did not type the words



I figured that but considering you didn't credit your source and presumably agree with your own post I'm crediting to you even if it's not your original words.

For the other bit, see the confirmation bias thread. It would be nice if you guys could get your theology straight and stop contradicting each other.


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## welderguy (Oct 12, 2017)

j_seph said:


> my post came from a copy paste from here so I did not type the words https://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
> 
> Funny i mentioned the working out of our own salvation and it is vs 12 and I had not seen his post.
> sovereignty
> ...



I have no argument with any of this.
God works salvation in us(elect), enabling us to work it out(manifest it).

Maybe the disagreement between you and me is that I don't think He works salvation in EVERY human being. Do you?


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