# God's will vs. medicine.......



## ky55 (Mar 26, 2018)

Does Faith Tabernacle beliefs put children at risk?


“Jonathan and Grace Foster of Berks County have been charged with involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment in the death of their two-year-old daughter, Ella. The girl died in November from pneumonia. The Fosters, who are members of Mechanicsburg-based Faith Tabernacle congregation, attributed the toddler's death to "God's will." Their church prohibits medical care of any kind.”



https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.pennlive.com/news/2017/02/faith_healing_faith_tabernacle.amp


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## WaltL1 (Mar 26, 2018)

> Does Faith Tabernacle beliefs put children at risk?


I think it would be pretty impossible to say no.


> Ella's death adds to the roster of children who every year die as a result of having been denied medical attention on the grounds of religious convictions. In almost all the cases, children have died from diseases or conditions that could have been treated with medicine.


And this is nonsense -


> "It's not cut and dry," she said. "For people to say horrible things about the Fosters, well they are just being judgmental. These are good people who don't know any better."


They do know better. They made a conscience decision to not provide medical care to a child. The reason for that wasn't because they didn't know the medicine could help.
They aren't good people. They put their own selfish reasons above their childs life.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 26, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Does Faith Tabernacle beliefs put children at risk?
> 
> 
> “Jonathan and Grace Foster of Berks County have been charged with involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment in the death of their two-year-old daughter, Ella. The girl died in November from pneumonia. The Fosters, who are members of Mechanicsburg-based Faith Tabernacle congregation, attributed the toddler's death to "God's will." Their church prohibits medical care of any kind.”
> ...



It’s murder due to neglect and should be treated as such, and I agree it was a conscious decision.


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## welderguy (Mar 26, 2018)

Doctors are good.(most are)
Luke was a doctor.
Sick people need doctors...just like broke things need welders.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 26, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> It’s murder due to neglect and should be treated as such, and I agree it was a conscious decision.


And it certainly wasn't -


> been charged with involuntary manslaughter


It was completely voluntary.

Ive said this before and its examples like this that supports it -
If God and the devil actually exist, organized religion is probably the devil's greatest accomplishment.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Mar 26, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Does Faith Tabernacle beliefs put children at risk?
> 
> 
> “Jonathan and Grace Foster of Berks County have been charged with involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment in the death of their two-year-old daughter, Ella. The girl died in November from pneumonia. The Fosters, who are members of Mechanicsburg-based Faith Tabernacle congregation, attributed the toddler's death to "God's will." Their church prohibits medical care of any kind.”
> ...



I believe their beliefs are contrary to God's ability to give people certain talents (skills not money) and those very same people with God given skills / callings to use those talents to do good for the mankind, such as creating drugs that will cure illnesses.


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## atlashunter (Apr 19, 2018)

I can point to scriptures that claim the effectiveness of prayer and faith healing. If those are true then who needs a fallible human doctor when you’ve got doctor Jesus? How many times have we been told that prayers are answered according to his will? If that is true and these people used prayer and he chose not to heal the children then the outcome was according to his will. If you’re going to tout the power of faith then at least have some consistency about it. Don’t back down when you don’t get the desired results.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Apr 19, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> I can point to scriptures that claim the effectiveness of prayer and faith healing. If those are true then who needs a fallible human doctor when you’ve got doctor Jesus? How many times have we been told that prayers are answered according to his will? If that is true and these people used prayer and he chose not to heal the children then the outcome was according to his will. If you’re going to tout the power of faith then at least have some consistency about it. Don’t back down when you don’t get the desired results.



I never pray for "my" will or desire to be done. I only pray that "His" will be done. If you're going to have faith big enough to follow Him then you must have faith big enough to accept His decisions according to His plan.


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## atlashunter (Apr 19, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I never pray for "my" will or desire to be done. I only pray that "His" will be done. If you're going to have faith big enough to follow Him then you must have faith big enough to accept His decisions according to His plan.



That’s exactly what those parents did. Prayed and accepted that whatever happens is in his hands.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Apr 19, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> That’s exactly what those parents did. Prayed and accepted that whatever happens is in his hands.


 The difference is I also believe God has given us many talents and callings in life, several of which include the intelligence to develop drugs and Dr's with the skill to perform surgeries that make a difference. 

Otherwise, how could we believe in such thing as those called to be preachers. All have their faults and a percentage are no good at what they do and perhaps are not following their true calling in regards to the talents given them. Are they serving the mighty dollar or God in their ambitions for their definition of success?


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## atlashunter (Apr 19, 2018)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> The difference is I also believe God has given us many talents and callings in life, several of which include the intelligence to develop drugs and Dr's with the skill to perform surgeries that make a difference.
> 
> Otherwise, how could we believe in such thing as those called to be preachers. All have their faults and a percentage are no good at what they do and perhaps are not following their true calling in regards to the talents given them. Are they serving the mighty dollar or God in their ambitions for their definition of success?



That's all well and good but the scriptures on healing make no mention of going that route. And why would they when they proclaim the power of supernatural faith based healing? If someone wants to live their life strictly according to scripture then on that basis they should be able to rely 100% on faith healing. That's what these people did. They trusted their god and lost their kid to something that probably could have been treated with conventional medicine. Was that the will of their god? Perhaps. Or perhaps their god doesn't exist. The outcome is the same in either case. In either case it's a wonder why anyone would choose to worship such a god.


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## ambush80 (Apr 19, 2018)

All things to His glory.

This is one of the best examples of why laws need to be based on rational, humanist, secular thinking.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Apr 19, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> That's all well and good but the scriptures on healing make no mention of going that route. And why would they when they proclaim the power of supernatural faith based healing? If someone wants to live their life strictly according to scripture then on that basis they should be able to rely 100% on faith healing. That's what these people did. They trusted their god and lost their kid to something that probably could have been treated with conventional medicine. Was that the will of their god? Perhaps. Or perhaps their god doesn't exist. The outcome is the same in either case. In either case it's a wonder why anyone would choose to worship such a god.



Luke was a physician.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 19, 2018)

realistically medical science was so primitive 2,000 years ago that prayer might have as good a chance of healing someone as a doctor would. These days it's a completely different situation at least here in the developed world. 
These parents are pathetic and blind to reality.


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## atlashunter (Apr 19, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> realistically medical science was so primitive 2,000 years ago that prayer might have as good a chance of healing someone as a doctor would. These days it's a completely different situation at least here in the developed world.
> These parents are pathetic and blind to reality.



When I read the bible I don't get the impression that one should expect prayer to be about as effective as iron age medicine was.

And Jesus said, “Have faith in God, for I say that whosoever says to this mountain, “Be thrown into the see and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he has said will happen it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it and it will be yours.” Mark 11:22-24

Is anyone sick among you? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. James 5:14-16

Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith

John 14:13-14 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it

John 14:12, KJV  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The terms "will" and "shall" are repeatedly used to describe the efficacy one can expect from prayer. It sets the expectation that this is something one can reasonably pin their hopes on. The parents in this case did that. They had enough faith to bet their child's life on prayer. These scriptures don't indicate prayer should be expected to work at a rate indistinguishable from no prayers at all. They are meant to inspire confidence in the power of prayer. Is that confidence justified? In this case it appears not.


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## ambush80 (Apr 19, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> When I read the bible I don't get the impression that one should expect prayer to be about as effective as iron age medicine was.
> 
> And Jesus said, “Have faith in God, for I say that whosoever says to this mountain, “Be thrown into the see and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he has said will happen it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it and it will be yours.” Mark 11:22-24
> 
> ...



If one is a Predestination believer, and one must logically come to that position, then you don't pray to change things, you pray because you are instructed to. 
_
Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith_

You WILL receive an answer and it will reflect His will; His plan.

Yes. No. Maybe So.

http://www.magicmgmt.com/gary/magic8ball/index1.html

Think of a question and left click.....if you dare.  I asked it if I will go to He11.  It said "Ask again later".


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## atlashunter (Apr 19, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> If one is a Predestination believer, and one must logically come to that position, then you don't pray to change things, you pray because you are instructed to.
> _
> Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith_
> 
> ...



Says you will receive whatever you ask.


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## ambush80 (Apr 19, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Says you will receive whatever you ask.




I'm just practicing the Apologetics Two Step.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 20, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> When I read the bible I don't get the impression that one should expect prayer to be about as effective as iron age medicine was.
> 
> And Jesus said, “Have faith in God, for I say that whosoever says to this mountain, “Be thrown into the see and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he has said will happen it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it and it will be yours.” Mark 11:22-24
> 
> ...





> When I read the bible I don't get the impression


That's because you are reading the scripture for exactly what it says.
Step 2 is to twist it around so it means what you want it to mean.


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## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> That's because you are reading the scripture for exactly what it says.
> Step 2 is to twist it around so it means what you want it to mean.



You mean you have to receive holy discernment.


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## atlashunter (Apr 20, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> You mean you have to receive holy discernment.



I think he's saying I'm doing it wrong. I should be playing tennis without the net.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Apr 20, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> I think he's saying I'm doing it wrong. I should be playing tennis without the net.



Or maybe with a higher net.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 20, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> You mean you have to receive holy discernment.


Yeah that's what I said


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## atlashunter (Apr 20, 2018)

And all this time I believed those red faced preachers pounding the pulpit and proclaiming the bible says what it means and means what it says. What a jip.


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## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> And all this time I believed those red faced preachers pounding the pulpit and proclaiming the bible says what it means and means what it says. What a jip.




It means what they said it meant.  Preachers have gifts.


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## Israel (Apr 21, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> That's because you are reading the scripture for exactly what it says.
> Step 2 is to twist it around so it means what you want it to mean.



I think you will find...even _in the scripture_ that the _twisting_ of it has had its practice, but likewise it is spoken by One...as unbreakable.

You ever see what happens when something unbreakable is torqued to its very limit (_allowance_ for twisting)? What do you think happens to that man playing with it?

Or, do you think man is _absolutely_ forbidden to see the unbreakable? To _know_ the unbreakable? 

If one does believe that, it is better for him to cease _playing_ about with that word truth. Showing himself a liar.

Everything that can be shaken will be shaken until only what is unshakable remains.

Do you believe a man can be so shaken...he could believe that? Knowing full well he must yet include himself in that mix?

In or out, out or in, to each man. 

But the shaking is inescapable. To what can be shaken.

"Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 
Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace."

I cheer for your peace. Indeed, I _root_ for it. I dig knowing, in finding yours, I find mine.
Peace to you, brother. And grace.


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## ambush80 (Apr 21, 2018)

Israel said:


> I think you will find...even _in the scripture_ that the _twisting_ of it has had its practice, but likewise it is spoken by One...as unbreakable.
> 
> You ever see what happens when something unbreakable is torqued to its very limit (_allowance_ for twisting)? What do you think happens to that man playing with it?
> 
> ...




Is this really the best way to express what you're trying to say?  Because if you're trying to have me understand you then you'll need to use less metaphor and speak more plainly because I really don't understand what you're trying to say.

It reads poetic and enigmatic, so in that sense you've succeeded.


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## bullethead (Apr 21, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Is this really the best way to express what you're trying to say?  Because if you're trying to have me understand you then you'll need to use less metaphor and speak more plainly because I really don't understand what you're trying to say.
> 
> It reads poetic and enigmatic, so in that sense you've succeeded.



Lucky you caught one rhat was posted later in the morning. The earlier the posts in the morning the more they seem like a incoherent meltdown.


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## Israel (Apr 22, 2018)

> I think you will find...even in the scripture that the twisting of it has had its practice, but likewise it is spoken by One...as unbreakable.



He speaks about these things in all his letters. There are some matters that are hard to understand. The untaught and unstable will twist them to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures.

Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’ ? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came — and the Scripture cannot be broken — then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? 

You ever see what happens when something unbreakable is torqued to its very limit (allowance for twisting)? What do you think happens to that man playing with it?



> to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures.



for we are not able to do anything against the truth, but for the truth;



> If one does believe that, it is better for him to cease playing about with that word truth. Showing himself a liar.





and there is not a created thing not manifest before Him, but all things are naked and open to His eyes -- with whom is our reckoning.


If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the_ fire will prove the quality of each man’s work._

But everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain fell, the torrents raged, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell — and great was its collapse!”

For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised. _And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins..._

Yes...all hinges upon the resurrection.
Apart from it Christ's words mean nothing.
In it they are all...that is.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: _for if ye believe not that I am he_, ye shall die in your sins.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

In or out, out or in, to each man.


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## ambush80 (Apr 22, 2018)

Israel said:


> He speaks about these things in all his letters. There are some matters that are hard to understand. The untaught and unstable will twist them to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures.
> 
> Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’ ? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came — and the Scripture cannot be broken — then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world?
> 
> ...



Ok.  This part I can kind of understand (I think).  Are you saying that the scriptures are unbreakable and if someone tried to break it something violent and dangerous will happen?  

First, I don't believe that the scriptures are unbreakable (I don't really know what that even means).  Secondly, I believe that they SHOULD be "broken apart" and examined.  





Israel said:


> and there is not a created thing not manifest before Him, but all things are naked and open to His eyes -- with whom is our reckoning.
> 
> 
> If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the_ fire will prove the quality of each man’s work._
> ...



This part I feel you went off the rails.


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## Israel (Apr 23, 2018)

Of all the implications to which the resurrection could lead, you focus on lasers out the eyes and pooping or vomiting cotton candy.

Yet, you seem to speak as one who, in considering the resurrection stands where so few _already_ have, in some sort of knowing that this opens all realms of possibility. 

But for you, and to you, it must yet remain in the realm of "real magic" of a kind, something accomplished to some end other than, or inclusive of another not plainly stated. The trueness of the resurrection, and all that pertains to its manifestation is the seal of God that Jesus Christ, His Son,_ is _true in all things.

Herod sent for Jesus desiring to see some "trick" of His performed, some wonder, some great and magnificent breaking of the natural order that would entertain or astonish him. For him and to him in his assumption of state and status did he believe this could be, would rightfully be demanded.


Little did he know that in such circumstance the all _of truth _would remain silent to him; nor could he know...how very appropriate and perfect is that...to him. This man who thought of himself in such measure that truth must perform to him at his will and demand.

How could he know? His assumption of himself before truth was very wrong in the relationship to it, that it was to him a thing to be handled...rather than the other way round.

Jesus said He came for sinners, the sick, the unrighteous... for deliverance from the inevitable finality of that to which the knowledge of their unrighteousness led. But they held a key given them from God His Father Himself, that unrighteousness cannot stand in His presence. 

Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

They will, come. Having that...the knowledge that their own righteousness, wisdom (such as it may appear), knowledge, intellect...and all their own doings, can never stand in the presence of God. Their plea is not "but I have always tried to do what is right and good"...but rather, I have never _at all_ how such appears until you allowed sight of your Son.

Sinners have a definite affinity to Jesus Christ...in seeing all and all of which...is not them. 

Unless God give that key...


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## ambush80 (Apr 23, 2018)

Israel said:


> Of all the implications to which the resurrection could lead, you focus on lasers out the eyes and pooping or vomiting cotton candy.
> 
> Yet, you seem to speak as one who, in considering the resurrection stands where so few _already_ have, in some sort of knowing that this opens all realms of possibility.
> 
> ...



That's an elite club.

That's also the most honest answer I've heard.

But as to the resurrection and laser beams.  The implication is that Jesus can do things that are beyond rational; supernatural, and God (Jesus) can do anything.  That leads one to conclude the He can Poop cotton candy.  That's the claim.  Either and all of those propositions should give one pause.  Either and all of those propositions should by any reasonable person require extraordinary proof.  But I guess if one receives The Key then they won't care about being reasonable anymore.


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## EverGreen1231 (Apr 23, 2018)

If you're sick, go to the doctor. If you're well, go to the doctor to be sure. There's nothin' wrong with the doctor. Pray on the way to the Doctor's office, if you like.


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## Israel (Apr 24, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> That's an elite club.
> 
> That's also the most honest answer I've heard.
> 
> But as to the resurrection and laser beams.  The implication is that Jesus can do things that are beyond rational; supernatural, and God (Jesus) can do anything.  That leads one to conclude the He can Poop cotton candy.  That's the claim.  Either and all of those propositions should give one pause.  Either and all of those propositions should by any reasonable person require extraordinary proof.  But I guess if one receives The Key then they won't care about being reasonable anymore.


I suppose if you want to call known sinners an elite club, you are free to. Nevertheless, that is who Jesus came for.

Yes...the sinner's being demands a proof, of necessity requires of Jesus a proof (what men would call) _of the beyond_ _that_ of word to the proving that His word is true. The trusting of His name, for the promises given in His name, and that of salvation, must, _of necessity_ be made sure.

Therefore the sinner's only hope is found in a thing that can outstrip this knowledge, this only knowledge heretofore he was allowed, that he is outside the righteousness of God...condemned.

He discovers (by God's allowance to see) Jesus true to His name, and all His word. Salvation is of God, particularly in the manifestation of a name included: "I am _the_ resurrection and _the_ life".

All any man has to do is be honest about his own name, but this too, is the work of God.

Just as Jesus' name, word, and work cannot be separated, so is man likewise set free to be truthful. To _declare_ his _integrity_.

When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for_ I am_ a sinful man, O Lord.


This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom _I am_ chief.

It's amazing how far God will bring a man (always amazing) when being made willing to the _smallest point_ of agreement.

If a man's sincerest desire is to know if Jesus can poop cotton candy...who am I to disallow? I am just a man. But I am a man in _need_ (of necessity) of something other than that. Pursue what _you must_, as I must.


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