# Black Powder Shotgun



## dadsbuckshot

Anyone have any advice about getting one?

I would like to have one for all around use - doves, squirrel, waterfowl, rabbit etc.....

Also I would like to know if you can use a BP shotgun for deer hunting? Anyone ever shoot buckshot out of one? I have some good brush places to hunt and would like to get one that can be used for turkey as well as deer.

What is your experience with BP shotguns and where can I find one to purchase?

Thanks....


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## Cknerr

on rare occasions I have built a few. The best way to describe them - think of a smokey under powered large caliber smooth bore double rifle. You can pretty much shoot whatever you want out of them.

Don't recall any o/u, all have been SxS. If you are going to use BP shot cartridge, then get ready for some studying. Reloading them is a whole new world. Can certainly be done and there supplies available to do that. I just never have. 

They are really cool to use, but hard to shoot accurately without practice. Have gone against a few at the trap range....rest assured they had no trouble keeping with us "modern day" types! (I shoot a Beretta 682 Gold E to give you an idea)

If you plan on using a muzzle stuffer type, then it gets very conventional. Slugs can be also be used. That takes a little  heavier barrel that needs to be addressed from the beginning. If just buck shot, then the thin wall type will be easier to carry and swing.

BP is easier on the joints then smokeless. Even a heavy load of buck shot won't stomp you as bad as a smokeless can. Of course you won't have the range, but that is only a marginal difference. Since it is hard to overcharge one with powder (it is possible -so  don't get too crazy), you can throw a huge amount of metal at a critter. 

If you are interested, I can look into what is available. Been a long time since I dealt with one. This would be a good excuse to see what is available these days. That is if you want store bought and not custom made.

Sounds like some smokey fun coming!
Chris


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## dadsbuckshot

Cknerr said:


> on rare occasions I have built a few. The best way to describe them - think of a smokey under powered large caliber smooth bore double rifle. You can pretty much shoot whatever you want out of them.
> 
> Don't recall any o/u, all have been SxS. If you are going to use BP shot cartridge, then get ready for some studying. Reloading them is a whole new world. Can certainly be done and there supplies available to do that. I just never have.
> 
> They are really cool to use, but hard to shoot accurately without practice. Have gone against a few at the trap range....rest assured they had no trouble keeping with us "modern day" types! (I shoot a Beretta 682 Gold E to give you an idea)
> 
> If you plan on using a muzzle stuffer type, then it gets very conventional. Slugs can be also be used. That takes a little  heavier barrel that needs to be addressed from the beginning. If just buck shot, then the thin wall type will be easier to carry and swing.
> 
> BP is easier on the joints then smokeless. Even a heavy load of buck shot won't stomp you as bad as a smokeless can. Of course you won't have the range, but that is only a marginal difference. Since it is hard to overcharge one with powder (it is possible -so  don't get too crazy), you can throw a huge amount of metal at a critter.
> 
> If you are interested, I can look into what is available. Been a long time since I dealt with one. This would be a good excuse to see what is available these days. That is if you want store bought and not custom made.
> 
> Sounds like some smokey fun coming!
> Chris



Thanks Chris...

I am wanting the front stuffer style if I get one. Just seems like a really cool way to hunt.

Like I said - I do not know alot about BP hunting - especially with a shotgun...

IF I do get a BP front loading shotgun I want one that I can use on hogs, deer and the whole range of small game and birds.....

Just don't know how to start this adventure and where to find information. I know that Cabelas sells a BP shotgun, but I don't know if it is good or not.

Thanks....


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## Sloppy_Snood

dadsbuckshot said:


> Thanks Chris...
> 
> I am wanting the front stuffer style if I get one. Just seems like a really cool way to hunt.
> 
> Like I said - I do not know alot about BP hunting - especially with a shotgun...
> 
> IF I do get a BP front loading shotgun I want one that I can use on hogs, deer and the whole range of small game and birds.....
> 
> Just don't know how to start this adventure and where to find information. I know that Cabelas sells a BP shotgun, but I don't know if it is good or not.
> 
> Thanks....



Gary "Doc" White, the inventor of White Rifles LLC Super 91 muzzleloaders has his own website and _in-line_ 12GA muzzleloading shotgun called the White Thunder and another called the Tominator (same as White Thunder with a laminated Boyd stock).  They are about 5. 1/4 pounds and a dream to carry in the woods.

Doc has two for sale on his website for $350 each.  Check out products #619 and #620 at the link below:

*LINK*:  White Muzzleloaders For Sale (Scroll Down to 619 and 620)

If you would like to know more about the general history of Doc's awesome 12GA Muzzleloading Tomintor series of shotguns, read here:

*LINK*:  White Rifles LLC Tominator 12GA ML Shotgun (Click Here)

Here is what my Tominator looks like when set-up for NWTF Still Target Competition:







Here is the Tominator set-up for the turkey fields:






...and here is how it patterns with a .665" Hastings 1-inch extended turkey choke tube (Hastings Choke II thread system):






170+ number 6 pellets in a 10-inch circle at a measured 40 yards when propelled with 100 grains of Swiss ffg (i.e. "2F") real black powder, BPI Turkey Ranger wad, 2 ounces of Hevi-Shot 6 shot, 2 cc of Precision Reloading spherical PSB buffer, and a cardboard overshot card.

Fact is.....this gun patterns better than most cartridge 12GA shotguns for about 1/3 the price!


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## Cknerr

Just so you know where I stand - inlines are not real muzzle loaders. Just to make sure I was not talking out of both sides of mouth, I got one and tried to wear it out. It has all the disadvantages of BP and none of the advantages of a real rifle. This is of course my opinion and other folks will strongly disagree! Disagreeing is part of what makes this world such a neat place to exist. Never boring and so many ideas. 

Hunting BP shotgun vs smokeless is not a huge differance. It is not so far from round ball BP vs. a conventional rifle. That being said, BP shotgun has some restrictions. Upland game is rarely hunted with them. Now some people like myself, if I ever had the time, would enjoy the experiance more then collecting meat. You will only have one or 2 shots period. Then whatever game bird was around will be history. They will flee while you reload. Having a dog helps if meat is high on the agenda. Personnally, I would like the experiance, so pooch can stay at home and hold down the rug in front of the fireplace...unless he is the amiable friendly type and a companion would only make things that much better. The gentler push of the BP and wafting cloud of smoke brings back throughts of the old days! 

For the bigger game such as pig and deer, I've always used a round ball. The shotgun and buck shot would certainly do the job. Slugs or a round ball out of one at ranges shorter then 75 yards would also bring them down. Plenty of deer and hogs brought down with smooth bores! Not sure what all the buckshot would do to the meat. Since they where used, it certainly is well proven. Buckshot loads tend to be bigger then smokeless versions, however, they don't travel as far or do as much damage. You can shoot either one, round ball or shot, out of a shotgun. Just remember you don't have the usual length of barrel to get velocities up. 

You might want to consider 2 barrels for your firearm. A smaller one for the upland birds and the bigger one for the larger 4 footed types. 

Please note, a good shotgun stock makes a lousy rifle stock and vice versa. Don't be conned into the type of replaceable barrel that can be rifle or shotgun. It should be one or the other. 

Why not start with Cabela's since you mentioned them. Google the name of the rifle they sell plus something like lemon or bad or report. You should get a lot of opinions that way.

I am a custom gunmaker, so store bought is not up my alley. Wish I could add more, but I just don't know enough about the mass produced ones. The only advice I can pass along for sure is to be wary of compromise. That goes for what I make too. Small game vs big game hunted with only one shotgun is problematic. Adding BP to the equation makes it even more so. Now if you want a custom gun or a cusomized store bought, maybe I can be of further help. You would still be faced with the same compromise or 2 barrels.

My 2 cents,
Chris


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## tv_racin_fan

I have a CVA SXS in 12 guage you are welcome to come and shoot.


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## pacecars

I just ordered a Tominator from Doc White today!


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## hawgrider1200

I had a Navy Arms SxS 12 guage about 15 yrs ago. They are fun to shoot but it takes a long time to shoot a round of skeet with one.
I agree with that fella Ckneer that says inline ain't "real" muzzleloading. but I have a couple of inlines. I disagree with him on the underpowered remark. Modern shot shells are loaded with enough powder to make an equivelent of a black powder load.  In other words the powder in a shotshell makes as much power as the old BP loads. check out ur shotshells, one every box it tells u the charge used. If u load that front stuff with 3 drams of BP the load will have the same velocity.


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## pacecars

Can't agree about inlines not being real muzzleloading since they too load from the muzzle. Inlines have been around about as long as the caplock sidehammers have long before White, Knight and T/C popularized them.


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## hawgrider1200

*Huh????*



pacecars said:


> Can't agree about inlines not being real muzzleloading since they too load from the muzzle. Inlines have been around about as long as the caplock sidehammers have long before White, Knight and T/C popularized them.


 
U mean to say that there were inline muzzleloaders in the 19th Century? I beg to differ!


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## tv_racin_fan

Hawg sir I hate to do this to you...

BUT in 1808 or so a Swiss man by the name of J S Pauley patented an inline muzzleloader.


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## hawgrider1200

tv_racin_fan said:


> Hawg sir I hate to do this to you...
> 
> BUT in 1808 or so a Swiss man by the name of J S Pauley patented an inline muzzleloader.



OK, I am wrong then I should have done my homework on that b4 I shot off my mouth. what did it use for an ignition system?


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## tv_racin_fan

The new fangled percussion cap sir. Fact is I think he invented a paper percussion cap... It is one of the things that most people are not aware of, thing is pretty much anything you can think of with a firearm has already been done.

I'm not in love with the inlines at all sir, BUT I would love to have a TC Contender or Encore in muzzleloading form. Just the same gimmie a nice half stocked plains or mountain rifle in flintlock form.


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## Wolf'n

dadsbuckshot, check out this link: www.fire-iron.biz/Fire___Iron.html 
I know this guy personally, he builds custom ML's leaning toward flintlocks; great fella too and scarry smart.


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## pacecars

Pauley patented an inline action in 1812, 4 years after Forsythe invented the percussion system. As the man said there ain't a whole lot new under the sun.


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## DonArkie

I just got  a Knight TK2oooNWTF (camo in Mossy Oak New Break-Up) in the box never fired with video still in the wrapper & with simmons shotgun scope New in the box too, never used all for 250.00


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## pacecars

Nice gun and good deal too!


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## Sloppy_Snood

Cknerr said:


> Just so you know where I stand - inlines are not real muzzleloaders.





pacecars said:


> Pauley patented an inline action in 1812, 4 years after Forsythe invented the percussion system. As the man said there ain't a whole lot new under the sun.



Therefore, the in-line muzzleloader is "era correct" but it is not "a real muzzleloader?"    

Nice shotgun ML DonArkie.  Can't wait to see some nickel-plated lead shot patterns out of that bad boy!  Jug-choked barrels like the TK2000 throw a very good pattern.


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## tv_racin_fan

Sloppy_Snood said:


> Therefore, the in-line muzzleloader is "era correct" but it is not "a real muzzleloader?"
> 
> Nice shotgun ML DonArkie.  Can't wait to see some nickel-plated lead shot patterns out of that bad boy!  Jug-choked barrels like the TK2000 throw a very good pattern.



LOL!! Therefore a firearm that loads from the muzzle is a muzzleloader no matter what style of ignition it uses. 

I just prefer the traditional round ball for a projectile fired from a sidelocked rifle but they experimented with pretty much everything under the sun way back then. The Whitworth rifle used what they called a "bolt", it was a twisted hexagonal shaped projectile. There were all sorts of conicals used before 1850 and I wouldn't bet against someone producing a sabotted projectile before 1850, heck the standard shotgun shell uses a sabot of sorts. YEP I found one from 1824...


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## Sloppy_Snood

tv_racin_fan said:


> LOL!! Therefore a firearm that loads from the muzzle is a muzzleloader no matter what style of ignition it uses.


LMBO!   I enjoy your posts more and more tv_racin_fan! 

....unfortunately, a black powder muzzeloader is not a "real firearm" since BATF doesn't regulate it.   

More seriously, the "old school" black powder rifles and other "non-firearms" do require more "work" but they certainly make me appreciate the simplicity and ease-of-use use and miantenance aspects of more modern in-lines and cartridge shotguns.


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## Sloppy_Snood

DonArkie said:


> I just got  a Knight TK2oooNWTF (camo in Mossy Oak New Break-Up) in the box never fired with video still in the wrapper & with simmons shotgun scope New in the box too, never used all for 250.00


Okay DonArkie.....now that you've teased us.....

where are the pictures?


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## tv_racin_fan

LOL!!  I gots my opinions sir and I aint afraid to share em. 

I also aint afraid to admit when I was wrong, or when my opinion changes. SOMETIMES I share my OPINION as if it was fact but I do not mean to do so.

Just because BATF doesn't doesn't mean your individual state doesn't so please do not make that mistake. All the same I like that BATF doesn't since it meant I was able to order my various BP firearms online and have them shipped directly to my home.


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## Sloppy_Snood

tv_racin_fan said:


> LOL!!  I gots my opinions sir and I aint afraid to share em.


Unfortunately for both of us, we are both incorrect.  Only TC's opinion is actually "correct?"   op2:


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## hawgrider1200

*who?*



Sloppy_Snood said:


> Unfortunately for both of us, we are both incorrect.  Only TC's opinion is actually "correct?"   op2:



Which TC is that, sir? what about TN's opinion?  I''d value TN's opinion.


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## Sloppy_Snood

hawgrider1200 said:


> Which TC is that, sir?


 The "Commander" (and I ain't talkin' about Phil Robertson!  )


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## hawgrider1200

is it your commander?  certainly not mine because I ain't got a clue who ur talkin about.


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## choctawlb

I have a CVA percussion cap, double barrel 12ga that I have been hunting with for 30 years. I have killed quail, doves, rabbits, and ducks with it using birdshot, and deer using .690 patched round balls. With a patched round ball it is deadly up to 60 yards , using only the front bead. _ also have a .75 caliber flintlock brown bess, that is a smooth bore as well. I have killed squirrels with it using shot, but have yet to take a deer with a roundball due to no opportunity as yet. I will be hunting turkey with it this spring as it throws an awesome pattern of #6 out to about 40 yards.
Ken_


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## Amohkali

Smoothbore is what I shoot - I have no rifled blackpowder anything (but a barrel for a pistol I haven't built yet). You can load bird, goose, or buck shot or round ball.

If you are most concerned with the larger game ability, get a smoothbore "fowler", trade gun or military musket rather than a thinner barrelled double that's mainly meant for 'shotgunning'.  It'll be longer barrelled, theoretically more accurate, and handle higher internal pressures for round ball.

Like my buddy Choctawlb, I have a 12ga percussion double and a .75 military "bess", but my preference is my .62 (20ga) Trade gun.  I've killed squirrels, rabbit, various birds (crow, dove and a few quail), and hogs with it. (won't mention the armadillos...)

With the versatility of being able to shoot 'bout anything you can stuff down the barrell,  you can kill 'bout anything that you can get close enough to.

My personal preference is flintlock, percussion's fine though; just a little more dependant on having caps and such.

You can get one from a ton of places -- depending on whether you want a commercial or a more custom.


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## JMOORE

I'm not at all familiar with them but I have one for sale in the swap and sale section.http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=4573118#post4573118


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## 1776Flintlock

Good luck. I always thought about getting a BP shotgun for turkey season. The smoke from a rifled ML is not too bad but out of a shotgun that has to be one thick cloud!


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## hawgrider1200

*Nah*



1776Flintlock said:


> Good luck. I always thought about getting a BP shotgun for turkey season. The smoke from a rifled ML is not too bad but out of a shotgun that has to be one thick cloud!



Not much more in my experience. mostly 110 grains of black powder woud be about the maximum load and lots of folks use the same load or almost for the rifles.


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## jbbmanchester

I have been shooting a Pedersoli 12 Ga. Side by side Black Powder Shotgun for about 5 years now. This is about the most fun you can have hunting. Squirrels, Rabbits and Turkeys all have fallen to mine. If you are going to shoot black powder then do it right and get some sort of traditional cap lock or flintlock. You won't be dissapoined with the amount of fun and gratitude you will have.


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## DonArkie

here ya go Scott. Never fired Knight TK2000NWFT ML Shotgun. I've decided to order the Leupold NWTF Scope for it.  This spring after turkey season I'll be working on its next year load.


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## airboat-tommy

*B P Shotgun*

Have had  my CVA 12 ga. dbl. bbl. B P shotgun for about 30 yrs. Have taken many  Whitetail Bucks ( in S. Fla. Everglades), with it loading 15 #1 Buck and 100 grs. FFg.  These loads are just as strong as a regular 12 ga.  Most all deer taken were with one shot.  Started out a long time  ago with single shot B P .50 cals. Found the dbl. bbl. BP shotgun to be much more efficient. Did have to use the 2 nd bbl. once. You can also shoot bird shot as well. Not into B P much anymore.
Tom 
Ellijay, Ga.


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## pacecars

Just shot my White yesterday. tried 95 grs of 777 with Whites power cups and 1 3/4 oz copper plated #5 to start with. It was a pussycat and a Turkey at 40 yds does not have a chance. Might try some heavier loads but this one looks good right out of the gate!


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## Sloppy_Snood

pacecars said:


> Just shot my White yesterday. tried 95 grs of 777 with Whites power cups and 1 3/4 oz copper plated #5 to satrat with. It was a pussycat and a Turkey at 40 yds does not have a chance. Might try some heavier loads but this one looks good right out of the gate!



Good to hear pacecars. 

If you get a chance, try some nickel-plated lead shot (5s or 6s or 7s).  Doc White says the nickel-plated shot sizzles out of the Tominators even better!

Two ounces of 5 shot might give you more pellets in your favorite-sized circle at 40 yards but no turkey will live on the difference.  Let us know how you testing goes in the future.


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## Sloppy_Snood

DonArkie said:


> here ya go Scott. Never fired Knight TK2000NWFT ML Shotgun. I've decided to order the Leupold NWTF Scope for it.  This spring after turkey season I'll be working on its next year load.


Beautiful Knight TK2000 Don.  I hope you enjoy it!


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## Son

I have an old H & R 12 guage, and sometimes it doesn't pop the cap. When it does, it puts out a decent pattern with # 1 buck.

Bought my first muzzle loader in 1967, it was an FIE Kentucky Rifle .45 cal. Didn't even come with an instruction book, and was packed in comsmoline.  Nobody, I mean, nobody knew anything about blackpowder guns back then. Not in my area down in South Fl anyway.
Several of my friends followed suit, and we began hunting with em soon after. We took some nice bucks with round ball and patch. FFFG powder.


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