# Why was Jesus baptized?



## TerryGwinnett

I'm not a rabble rouser and I'm serious about this question.  Each Sunday I see people baptized and "buried with Christ in baptism, raised to walk in the newness of life".  The pastor says that baptism is a reenactment of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.  If that is the case, then why was Jesus baptized and why were people being baptized before the time of Christ?  Was the meaning of baptism changed after Jesus?


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## Swamp Angel

John’s baptism was a "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3). Jesus, however, "did no sin" (1 Peter 2:22), and thus He could not have been baptized for the remission of sins. What, then, was the reason for His baptism? Jesus Himself said to John, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us *to fulfill all righteousness*" ("Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness," NKJV, Matthew 3:16).

Jesus was baptized to fulfill or carry out righteousness, and since all of God’s commands are righteousness (Psalm 119:172), then it must be the case that Jesus was baptized in obedience to the Father’s command. Of those Jews that refused to receive John’s baptism, it is written that they "rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him" (Luke 7:30). By being baptized, Jesus certainly showed forth an example of submission to the will of God that was worthy of imitation for those Jews who lived in His time, even as it continues to serve as an excellent example of obedience for men living today.

The short answer: ". . .to fulfill all righteousness. . ."


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## TerryGwinnett

Then, baptism is not a reenactment of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as they say in church?


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## centerpin fan

TerryGwinnett said:


> Then, baptism is not a reenactment of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as they say in church?



Depends on the church.


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## TerryGwinnett

centerpin fan said:


> Depends on the church.



Southern Baptist.


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## Mako22

TerryGwinnett said:


> Then, baptism is not a reenactment of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as they say in church?



Believers baptism and John's baptism are not the same


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## Mako22

Swamp Angel said:


> John’s baptism was a "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3). Jesus, however, "did no sin" (1 Peter 2:22), and thus He could not have been baptized for the remission of sins. What, then, was the reason for His baptism? Jesus Himself said to John, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us *to fulfill all righteousness*" ("Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness," NKJV, Matthew 3:16).
> 
> Jesus was baptized to fulfill or carry out righteousness, and since all of God’s commands are righteousness (Psalm 119:172), then it must be the case that Jesus was baptized in obedience to the Father’s command. Of those Jews that refused to receive John’s baptism, it is written that they "rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him" (Luke 7:30). By being baptized, Jesus certainly showed forth an example of submission to the will of God that was worthy of imitation for those Jews who lived in His time, even as it continues to serve as an excellent example of obedience for men living today.
> 
> The short answer: ". . .to fulfill all righteousness. . ."



Very good and scriptural answer, soon some silliness will be offered up in answer.


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## gordon 2

Here is silliness. Jesus did what was right by getting baptized by his relative John--because John's baptism was right at its time. The question is "why" was it righteous or correct? And I suspect that is a meaty study. Simply perhaps, or in silliness, for the Jews purification was from ( sacred waters) from temple pools which were sanctioned by the religious or spiritual authorities. John was using natural water to minister with. You might start there... because there is much more to John's baptism, much, much more. (Issues of sacrifice apply here perhaps akin to ministry and salvation in our day.)

Also the jews (hebrews) did baptize converts to Judaism. Or gentiles converts were baptized by the Jews. A type for this baptism was the crossing of the Red Sea by the Hebrews and Noah's flood. Or it was the element that indicated the transition for being lost to being a member of God's chosen people.

The question remains why John's baptism was right according to God and why the Jewish religious and political authority had a problem with it? John's baptism, as well as Jesus' ministry was seen as a revolt by the authorities.

 God judged that John's baptism in river water and its purpose was correct for what it was and what it did. It was the right thing to do at that time and very much outside of the norm.

Here's my .02 cents. It was a return to fundamental values regards the importance of repentance within the greater life of faith. It was about the heart and the spirit, as opposed to being "right" with the temple authority.

So what is the change from John's baptism to our? John's baptism was about being spiritually alert and lively yet still being a Jew. Our baptism is one of being totally and perfectly born again spiritually. John's baptism primed the ancient's spiritual heart pump. John's was a pump kit. Our baptism creates a totally new re-designed spiritual heart pump.


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## centerpin fan

TerryGwinnett said:


> Southern Baptist.



As Woodsman69 has noted, Swamp Angel gave you a good SBC answer.


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## 1gr8bldr

The answer to "fullfill all righteousness" has to do with the flood. The dove was sent out and returned because it found no place to "remain". John said "the way I knew it was the Christ was because the one who told me to baptize said it would be the one on whom the dove would come down on and "remain".


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## Ronnie T

TerryGwinnett said:


> Then, baptism is not a reenactment of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as they say in church?





centerpin fan said:


> Depends on the church.



Biblically, it is not ever referred to as a reenactment of anything.
Biblically, it always has a personal connection with the person submitting to it........ Such as Jesus himself.

Jesus said:  "I must be baptized".


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## Ronnie T

Woodsman69 said:


> Believers baptism and John's baptism are not the same



No.  Remember the disciples of John's who had only been baptized with John's baptism?
Paul, upon learning this, baptized them.

Acts 19:3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6


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## hobbs27

Jesus was baptized so thousands of years later people wouldn't be saying," Jesus wasn't Baptized so I dont have to be either".


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## huntersluck

Baptism was around way before Jesus was born, died or resurrected I will not go into the history lesson as I am sure most of you know it or can find it.


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## crucible02

TerryGwinnett said:


> Then, baptism is not a reenactment of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as they say in church?



I wouldn't call it a reenactment but a spiritual symbol of our own burial and resurrection in Christ.

Death and burial of our "old way of living" and resurrection to life as a "new creation."

Romans 6:3-5New King James Version (NKJV)

"3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,"

Baptism is simply an outward sign of an inward work. If the inward work is not or has not taken place, then the outward sign is ineffective.


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## centerpin fan

crucible02 said:


> Baptism is simply an outward sign of an inward work.



I disagree, but I've pretty much given up on debating that.  I've decided to focus on a more achievable goal:  Mideast peace.


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## TerryGwinnett

So far none of these answers makes sense to me.  It's like people are just guessing.  "Because, it's what we do" is about all it amounts to.


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## centerpin fan

TerryGwinnett said:


> So far none of these answers makes sense to me.  It's like people are just guessing.  "Because, it's what we do" is about all it amounts to.



It's more important to understand why you are baptized.


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## formula1

*Re:*

Obedience!


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## TerryGwinnett

centerpin fan said:


> It's more important to understand why you are baptized.



Because, in 1987 during the summer between 7th and 8th grades I went to Glorieta Baptist Retreat and was filled with the spirit.  I was told that I needed to be Baptized in order to make public the fact that I had been saved.  So, when I got back home to Texas, I was baptized.  I didn't understand it then and I don't understand it now.  I'm resigned to the fact that I'll never find clarity on the matter.


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## centerpin fan

TerryGwinnett said:


> Because, in 1987 during the summer between 7th and 8th grades I went to Glorieta Baptist Retreat and was filled with the spirit.  I was told that I needed to be Baptized in order to make public the fact that I had been saved.  So, when I got back home to Texas, I was baptized.  I didn't understand it then and I don't understand it now.  I'm resigned to the fact that I'll never find clarity on the matter.



If you have a month or two to spare, you could read through some of the baptism threads in the archives.  I can't promise you'll find clarity, though.


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## hobbs27

formula1 said:


> Obedience!



Yep, and for whatever reason doesn't really matter. God says , Christians go jump in a lake, well we best go jump in a lake.


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## barryl

Obedience of Faith! Romans 16:26 KJV 1611 AV The Lord Jesus Christ had(or has) no sins to confess and no need to repent! He submitted to baptism for the sake of manifesting himself to Israel! John 1:31(Johns baptism of repentance) (1 Cor. 1:22,14:22 KJV AV) CPFan is right about "depends on which church". Be careful about being led into the ditch. Matt. 15:14 KJV AV


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## pine nut

Terry,  my bible is a Dake's Annotated Reference Bible published and sold by the Dake family in Lawrenceville, GA.  It's an interesting bible and easy to look up and use for research.  On page three of the book of Matthew chapter 3 verse 11 you are directed to a foot note (a) "ten reasons forgiveness not by water:" reason# 4 states: " Christ who knew no sin was baptized for two reasons: 1 To fulfill righteousness (v 15). 2 To be manifest to Israel( Jn. 1:31)."

Try reading Matthew 3:11-16 reading Mr. Dake's foot notes and cross references.  

I would suggest his bible as a very good study bible and trouble yourself to read his introduction of his work that you get when buying this bible.  His is an interesting story and his work was forty years in the writing. I came to know of this bible via an unusual circumstance , but I won't go into that here.  I believe this work to be a great help to an honest seeker.


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## 1gr8bldr

For those believing that he was baptized for in summary "to set an example", what was the dove coming down?


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## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> For those believing that he was baptized for in summary "to set an example", what was the dove coming down?



Good point, but if his physical death on the cross was "just for example" or "for show" as some believe, I guess it's possible.
Some people forget Jesus was a man.


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> For those believing that he was baptized for in summary "to set an example", what was the dove coming down?



What dove?


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> What dove?


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## hummerpoo

crucible02 said:


> Baptism is simply an outward sign of an inward work.





centerpin fan said:


> I disagree, but I've pretty much given up on debating that.  I've decided to focus on a more achievable goal:  Mideast peace.



I'm simply curious, nothing more.
Would you come closer to agreeing with "Baptism signifies an inward work and fulfils a Divine command"?

Good luck on your peace project.


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## centerpin fan

hummerpoo said:


> Good luck on your peace project.



I'll have those ISIS guys eating out of my hand.


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## centerpin fan

hummerpoo said:


> Would you come closer to agreeing with "Baptism signifies an inward work and fulfils a Divine command"?



No, I don't think it signifies anything.  I agree with Tertullian:  it is a physical act with spiritual benefits.


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## hummerpoo

centerpin fan said:


> No, I don't think it signifies anything.  I agree with Tertullian:  it is a physical act with spiritual benefits.



Thanks.  Like I said, simply curious.


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## Artfuldodger

Could it signify the inauguration of His earthly ministry?


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## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> Could it signify the inauguration of His earthly ministry?



I see nothing in scripture to indicate this.


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## mtnwoman

TerryGwinnett said:


> I'm not a rabble rouser and I'm serious about this question.  Each Sunday I see people baptized and "buried with Christ in baptism, raised to walk in the newness of life".  The pastor says that baptism is a reenactment of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.  If that is the case, then why was Jesus baptized and why were people being baptized before the time of Christ?  Was the meaning of baptism changed after Jesus?



Personally (Baptist here), just like the last supper, drink the wine, this is My blood and eat of my flesh (bread).....Jesus is our example and we need to follow Him. Yes buried (sins washed away) and up out of the water, resurrected into a 'new man'. Jesus didn't have to drink the wine or eat the bread, or be baptized just showing us the process of an outward display of an inward 
belief in Him. Symbolic.


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## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> I'll have those ISIS guys eating out of my hand.



lol


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## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> I see nothing in scripture to indicate this.



Was this when Jesus was anointed by his Father?
It might just be coincidence that his Earthly ministery started at this point.

Acts 10:38
"You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,


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## Israel

"I delight to do thy will..."


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## Jeffriesw

TerryGwinnett said:


> I'm not a rabble rouser and I'm serious about this question.  Each Sunday I see people baptized and "buried with Christ in baptism, raised to walk in the newness of life".  The pastor says that baptism is a reenactment of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.  If that is the case, then why was Jesus baptized and why were people being baptized before the time of Christ?  Was the meaning of baptism changed after Jesus?



As the Federal head of His people he was acting in his mediatorial role, Christ is identifying with his people; they need to be baptized, symbolizing their repentance and cleansing from sin, so he enters into their obedience and perfects it in righteousness. Also, look in Mark chapter 10 where he calls his impending death on the cross, baptism. I think this also points to the same conclusion. There are other views that are also very plausible as well, and I would not limit His Baptism to just one thing. He was also being annointed at the start of His ministry. Thats my .02 cents anyway.


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## Ronnie T

Leaving opinion out of the subject(if that's allowed), Jesus said He must be baptized to 'fulfill all righteousness'.
I take that to mean "it's what God wants Me to do".

As far as baptism being nothing more than our reenactment of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, the bible doesn't even hint at that possibility.  

In the Bible, weren't Christians told, "baptism doth now save you"?


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> Leaving opinion out of the subject(if that's allowed), Jesus said He must be baptized to 'fulfill all righteousness'.
> I take that to mean "it's what God wants Me to do".
> 
> As far as baptism being nothing more than our reenactment of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, the bible doesn't even hint at that possibility.
> 
> In the Bible, weren't Christians told, "baptism doth now save you"?



It does indeed...but then it redefines baptism, doesnt it? I dont know but would like your input on what this means.

Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

So is baptism that saves actually an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ ,or is it the waters of baptism?


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> It does indeed...but then it redefines baptism, doesnt it?



No, Peter just expounds on his previous comments.




hobbs27 said:


> So is baptism that saves actually an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ ,or is it the waters of baptism?



Baptism in water _is_ the appeal to God.  I realize that is not the dominant view in Protestantism, but it is the dominant view in pretty much everything else.


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## hobbs27

The YLT has this verse not saying baptism :

Also to which an antitype doth now saves us-- baptism.

Interesting.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> The YLT has this verse not saying baptism :
> 
> Also to which an antitype doth now saves us-- baptism.



It sure looks like it's saying baptism.


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> It sure looks like it's saying baptism.



You're correct. I was so focused on this one verse I failed to look at the previous and consider the context. Shame on me, cause I should know better.


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> It does indeed...but then it redefines baptism, doesnt it? I dont know but would like your input on what this means.
> 
> Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
> 
> So is baptism that saves actually an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ ,or is it the waters of baptism?



I believe it has a lot to do with your willingness to submit to baptism.  Your desire to do as commanded.


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## Israel

We may have been the people of the "end around" play, once.
The "shortcut" people, the hoping to hop over the back fence to Eden people.
The "my grievance is so egregious I won't talk to the son, I want the head honcho, and now!", people.

This being "found in fashion as a man" trip only works to our benefit, God's glory, and the comfort of others when we are settled in this , 
"You both know Me and know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know."

We are either "sent" people, not of our own will, and content in relinquishing any notion of being good of ourselves, but instead waiting in eager anticipation for the good of God to be shown us, as even our Master has said: 
For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.
Or we are not.
It could be peculiar to our hearing to understand of whom Jesus spoke as having the attitude of the unprofitable servant.
But who else do we know that fits this:
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

I know of only one in the all.
It's enough to hear him.
Do we know what he calls those who hear and keep him?
Do we get a new name?
A new abode?
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

There's maybe only one thing I have always been certain of, my unworthiness to be loved.
I have met only one man who is more certain of a thing than I am.
Funny what cracking the door to him does to such a laboriously built house.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Leaving opinion out of the subject(if that's allowed), Jesus said He must be baptized to 'fulfill all righteousness'.
> I take that to mean "it's what God wants Me to do".
> 
> As far as baptism being nothing more than our reenactment of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, the bible doesn't even hint at that possibility.
> 
> In the Bible, weren't Christians told, "baptism doth now save you"?


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> I believe it has a lot to do with your willingness to submit to baptism.  Your desire to do as commanded.



I agree.


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> In the Bible, weren't Christians told, "baptism doth now save you"?



I believe what saves us is the blood of Jesus....I don't think baptism alone saves you.  It was quite a spiritual experience for me when I was baptized, I felt clean and my sins were washed away...even though I have to 'wash my feet daily' and repent.  I didn't die in the flesh as Christ did, nor did I resurrect in the flesh, I died a spiritual death of myself, resurrected into a new 'spiritual being', baptism washed my fleshly ways away. which made me, as a human clean and forgiven. What really washes my sins away is the blood of Christ, not the water....the water is symbolic of the blood.

Hope that makes sense.


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## Artfuldodger

What can wash away my sin?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
What can make me whole again?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Oh! precious is the flow
That makes me white as snow;
No other fount I know,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

source: http://www.lyricsondemand.com/


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## Lowjack

Yeshua was baptized in preparation for the service to his people:
Baptism is Jewish

Not everyone knows the Jewish cultural background of baptism, including most Jewish people. This is especially evident in the way that baptism is commonly perceived today. On the other hand, if we return to the Bible, it's another story.

Who were the first Baptists? They were Jews! This would include Yochanan ben Zechariah, better known as John the Baptist. It would also involve all the Jewish talmidim (disciples) of Yeshua who subsequently baptized new believers. Moreover, it goes all the way back into the Tanach many centuries earlier.

The Biblical Principles of Baptism

Biblical principles are always established first in some manner in Torah. It might be a specific command by G-d that later is brought out in its totality in the life and teachings of Yeshua. Or it might be in a historical event that foreshadows a fulfillment later on. Both of these concepts are evident in the case of baptism.

Exodus—the historical foreshadowing

After the culmination of the story of Passover, the Israelites were released from slavery in Egypt. Exodus 14 tells about how Pharaoh changed his mind and his army pursued after them. When they reached the Red Sea, Moses worked a miracle and parted the waters. The people followed G-d's pillar of fire that was leading them and then we are told: 


"But the sons of Israel walked on dry land through the midst of the sea, and the waters were like a wall to them on their right hand and on their left." ( Ex. 14:29)

The order of events is very informative to us.
•The people had previously been redeemed by G-d, spared the plague of death and released from slavery.


•Then by faith they passed through a wall of water on either side that was higher than their heads.


•Their emergence on the other side would enable them to become a nation serving G-d and being blessed by Him, when they reached Mt. Sinai a short time later. But at the moment of their deliverance at the sea, they testified in the form of a song, in which they sang: "The L-rd is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation; This is my G-d, and I will praise Him; My father's G-d, and I will extol Him" (Ex. 15:2).

This, then, is the historical context of immersion : G-d does His work of redemption and the people follow Him in obedience. This act is followed by a sign that serves as a witness to the ways of G-d. 

Mikveh—the foundation in the Torah 

The foundation for all biblical principles, including baptism, is found in the Torah. Within the writings of Moses, it has been determined that G-d gave 613 instructions, commonly called the Law, to the nation of Israel. These principles were distinguished by three distinct categories. There are numerous passages of Scripture that describe the Torah in this way. For example, as Moses was about to give the complete Torah to the people of Israel just before entering the Promised Land, he cited each of these categories:


"These are the testimonies (edot) and the statutes (chukim) and the ordinances (mishpatim) which Moses spoke to the sons of Israel, when they came out from Egypt..." (Deut. 4:45)

The characteristics of these three categories can be summed up in this way:

The Categories of Torah Instructions

Ordinances  (mishpatim) Civil ordinances enabling people to exercise justice and to live in harmony, such as laws prohibiting murder, theft, etc. 
Testimonies (edot) Feasts and rituals, (including sacrifices) that bear witness to G-d and His ways. 
Statutes(chukim) Practices that serve to strengthen the bond between G-d and His people through obedience, usually without any explanation why the people should do them. These include the dietary laws, not mixing wool and linen in clothing etc. 

The Hebrew word for this last category—chukim—in the singular is chuk. It is derived from a root verb haqaq, which comes into English as the word "hack." It is a picture of hacking or cutting or engraving into an object. Perhaps the best way to think of it is two lovers hacking their initials into a tree somewhere, leaving a permanent mark indicating their relationship. It really has no practical result. It just means marking or signifying something that was important to them.

One of the commandments from the category of statutes (chukim) was the mikveh bath. It involved the way individuals demonstrated their eligibility for full privileges and responsibilities within the community. In the Torah, it is taught that there were a variety of ways that people could become symbolically unclean, such as touching a dead body or during a woman's monthly menstrual cycle. The entire 15th chapter of Leviticus provides the specific details.

G-d commanded that whenever someone became ritually impure, he or she had to go to the mikveh bath in order to restore one's status in the community. The word mikveh literally meant "a collection or gathering together." Over time it came to be most associated with a collection of water (such as a pond or reservoir).

We also know this about the mikveh—the water had to be "living water" from a spring or river. It had to be running water. The individual was completely immersed under the water (Heb. tevilah). And it had nothing to do with the salvation of the person.

It was all about signifying that you had been given a new life of blessings and responsibilities in the community. In biblical times, it demonstrated through obedience that a person was spiritually clean and eligible for full privileges and service within the nation of Israel.


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## hobbs27

Lowjack, while you're on the topic, would you explain the difference of the Old Covenant baptism and the New? What does it mean to be Baptized into Christ, or Baptized in the fire?

 Thanks.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Lowjack, while you're on the topic, would you explain the difference of the Old Covenant baptism and the New? What does it mean to be Baptized into Christ, or Baptized in the fire?
> 
> Thanks.



Lowjack, while your at it, what was the difference between why or for what reason John baptized people  compared to why or for what reason Jesus instructed his disciples to baptize?
If there was a difference.


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## 1gr8bldr

Lowjack said:


> Yeshua was baptized in preparation for the service to his people:
> Baptism is Jewish
> 
> Not everyone knows the Jewish cultural background of baptism, including most Jewish people. This is especially evident in the way that baptism is commonly perceived today. On the other hand, if we return to the Bible, it's another story.
> 
> Who were the first Baptists? They were Jews! This would include Yochanan ben Zechariah, better known as John the Baptist. It would also involve all the Jewish talmidim (disciples) of Yeshua who subsequently baptized new believers. Moreover, it goes all the way back into the Tanach many centuries earlier.
> 
> The Biblical Principles of Baptism
> 
> Biblical principles are always established first in some manner in Torah. It might be a specific command by G-d that later is brought out in its totality in the life and teachings of Yeshua. Or it might be in a historical event that foreshadows a fulfillment later on. Both of these concepts are evident in the case of baptism.
> 
> Exodus—the historical foreshadowing
> 
> After the culmination of the story of Passover, the Israelites were released from slavery in Egypt. Exodus 14 tells about how Pharaoh changed his mind and his army pursued after them. When they reached the Red Sea, Moses worked a miracle and parted the waters. The people followed G-d's pillar of fire that was leading them and then we are told:
> 
> 
> "But the sons of Israel walked on dry land through the midst of the sea, and the waters were like a wall to them on their right hand and on their left." ( Ex. 14:29)
> 
> The order of events is very informative to us.
> •The people had previously been redeemed by G-d, spared the plague of death and released from slavery.
> 
> 
> •Then by faith they passed through a wall of water on either side that was higher than their heads.
> 
> 
> •Their emergence on the other side would enable them to become a nation serving G-d and being blessed by Him, when they reached Mt. Sinai a short time later. But at the moment of their deliverance at the sea, they testified in the form of a song, in which they sang: "The L-rd is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation; This is my G-d, and I will praise Him; My father's G-d, and I will extol Him" (Ex. 15:2).
> 
> This, then, is the historical context of immersion : G-d does His work of redemption and the people follow Him in obedience. This act is followed by a sign that serves as a witness to the ways of G-d.
> 
> Mikveh—the foundation in the Torah
> 
> The foundation for all biblical principles, including baptism, is found in the Torah. Within the writings of Moses, it has been determined that G-d gave 613 instructions, commonly called the Law, to the nation of Israel. These principles were distinguished by three distinct categories. There are numerous passages of Scripture that describe the Torah in this way. For example, as Moses was about to give the complete Torah to the people of Israel just before entering the Promised Land, he cited each of these categories:
> 
> 
> "These are the testimonies (edot) and the statutes (chukim) and the ordinances (mishpatim) which Moses spoke to the sons of Israel, when they came out from Egypt..." (Deut. 4:45)
> 
> The characteristics of these three categories can be summed up in this way:
> 
> The Categories of Torah Instructions
> 
> Ordinances  (mishpatim) Civil ordinances enabling people to exercise justice and to live in harmony, such as laws prohibiting murder, theft, etc.
> Testimonies (edot) Feasts and rituals, (including sacrifices) that bear witness to G-d and His ways.
> Statutes(chukim) Practices that serve to strengthen the bond between G-d and His people through obedience, usually without any explanation why the people should do them. These include the dietary laws, not mixing wool and linen in clothing etc.
> 
> The Hebrew word for this last category—chukim—in the singular is chuk. It is derived from a root verb haqaq, which comes into English as the word "hack." It is a picture of hacking or cutting or engraving into an object. Perhaps the best way to think of it is two lovers hacking their initials into a tree somewhere, leaving a permanent mark indicating their relationship. It really has no practical result. It just means marking or signifying something that was important to them.
> 
> One of the commandments from the category of statutes (chukim) was the mikveh bath. It involved the way individuals demonstrated their eligibility for full privileges and responsibilities within the community. In the Torah, it is taught that there were a variety of ways that people could become symbolically unclean, such as touching a dead body or during a woman's monthly menstrual cycle. The entire 15th chapter of Leviticus provides the specific details.
> 
> G-d commanded that whenever someone became ritually impure, he or she had to go to the mikveh bath in order to restore one's status in the community. The word mikveh literally meant "a collection or gathering together." Over time it came to be most associated with a collection of water (such as a pond or reservoir).
> 
> We also know this about the mikveh—the water had to be "living water" from a spring or river. It had to be running water. The individual was completely immersed under the water (Heb. tevilah). And it had nothing to do with the salvation of the person.
> 
> It was all about signifying that you had been given a new life of blessings and responsibilities in the community. In biblical times, it demonstrated through obedience that a person was spiritually clean and eligible for full privileges and service within the nation of Israel.


The context of this does not seem to fit well with John's baptismal. His was for the remission of sins. People flocked to John, not because he was a good preacher, not that they had even heard him before, but because that they had heard that someone was preaching a forgiveness of sins. This tells me that among the religious, people observed the white washed religious crowd and saw a need for something, my thought is that they could not live up to the perceived par of the outward view of the religious, so they sought another route, hearing of a baptismal of forgiveness, they sought out John. This fits with his remark to those whom he said, who told you to flee from the coming wrath. They had come to question or trap him, but he with what he said implys that others were coming for this reason, not communial standing. I'm not argueing that any of your post not be right, just pointing out how John's baptismal by context looks different


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## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> The context of this does not seem to fit well with John's baptismal. His was for the remission of sins. People flocked to John, not because he was a good preacher, not that they had even heard him before, but because that they had heard that someone was preaching a forgiveness of sins. This tells me that among the religious, people observed the white washed religious crowd and saw a need for something, my thought is that they could not live up to the perceived par of the outward view of the religious, so they sought another route, hearing of a baptismal of forgiveness, they sought out John. This fits with his remark to those whom he said, who told you to flee from the coming wrath. They had come to question or trap him, but he with what he said implys that others were coming for this reason, not communial standing. I'm not argueing that any of your post not be right, just pointing out how John's baptismal by context looks different



Amen, and I believe people are still fleeing the white washed religious crowd for a baptism of repentance.
I just wish more people knew what their repentance was.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Amen, and I believe people are still fleeing the white washed religious crowd for a baptism of repentance.
> I just wish more people knew what their repentance was.



I thought it was repentance from non belief.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I thought it was repentance from non belief.



Me too, but many Christians believe it is repentance from sinning. Not the repentance or change of mind that they can't quit sinning and now believe Jesus died for their sins.


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## Ruger#3

Good discussion, thank you all. Interesting reference from the Old Testament in light of Lowjack's post.

Ezekiel 36:24–28

The Lord says this: I am not doing this for my sake, House of Israel, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I mean to display the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned among them. And the nations will learn that I am the Lord – it is the Lord who speaks – when I display my holiness for your sake before their eyes. Then I am going to take you from among the nations and gather you together from all the foreign countries, and bring you home to your own land. _I shall pour clean water over you and you will be cleansed; I shall cleanse you of all your defilement and all your idols. I shall give you a new heart, and put a new spirit in you; I shall remove the heart of stone from your bodies and give you a heart of flesh instead. I shall put my spirit in you, and make you keep my laws and sincerely respect my observances._ You will live in the land which I gave your ancestors. You shall be my people and I will be your God.


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## Lowjack

1gr8bldr said:


> The context of this does not seem to fit well with John's baptismal. His was for the remission of sins. People flocked to John, not because he was a good preacher, not that they had even heard him before, but because that they had heard that someone was preaching a forgiveness of sins. This tells me that among the religious, people observed the white washed religious crowd and saw a need for something, my thought is that they could not live up to the perceived par of the outward view of the religious, so they sought another route, hearing of a baptismal of forgiveness, they sought out John. This fits with his remark to those whom he said, who told you to flee from the coming wrath. They had come to question or trap him, but he with what he said implys that others were coming for this reason, not communial standing. I'm not argueing that any of your post not be right, just pointing out how John's baptismal by context looks different



It is well known by the Jewish sages and as part of the ritual of becoming a Rabbi , that one had to show publically ones intent to go into de service of God by the Mikva ( Baptism) this is the reason Yeshua did it , not as repenting of sin , that would not apply to him, but Giving his life to the service would as prescribed by the Torah.
Been Baptized by fire would be a total new concept , it was the sign from God to the believers of this new Covenant that they were saved"Baptism by fire is not found as a rule in Judaism.


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## 1gr8bldr

Lowjack said:


> It is well known by the Jewish sages and as part of the ritual of becoming a Rabbi , that one had to show publically ones intent to go into de service of God by the Mikva ( Baptism) this is the reason Yeshua did it , not as repenting of sin , that would not apply to him, but Giving his life to the service would as prescribed by the Torah.
> Been Baptized by fire would be a total new concept , it was the sign from God to the believers of this new Covenant that they were saved"Baptism by fire is not found as a rule in Judaism.


By this concept then, your saying that all that came to John were being baptized as "giving their lives to service". In Jesus case, he was being baptized as the first to receive the Spirit, not a sinners baptismal. Acts 2 "he received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit" [first of the New Cov]


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## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> Amen, and I believe people are still fleeing the white washed religious crowd for a baptism of repentance.
> I just wish more people knew what their repentance was.



Go tell them, so they will know.

Who's going to tell them if we don't?  And that may include not being afraid they will be offended. Being offended is not the worst thing that might happen to them, is it?


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## Lowjack

1gr8bldr said:


> By this concept then, your saying that all that came to John were being baptized as "giving their lives to service". In Jesus case, he was being baptized as the first to receive the Spirit, not a sinners baptismal. Acts 2 "he received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit" [first of the New Cov]



He seemed to have have been the only one who received Comfirmation from the Holy Spirit and Words of God who testified "this is my beloved Son"in whom I'm pleased , Listen to Him"Giving him license to Start His Messianic Ministry.


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## 1gr8bldr

Lowjack said:


> He seemed to have have been the only one who received Comfirmation from the Holy Spirit and Words of God who testified "this is my beloved Son"in whom I'm pleased , Listen to Him"Giving him license to Start His Messianic Ministry.


Seems more like the first reciprocant of the new covenant


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## Artfuldodger

Good discussion, I too believe he was the first one to receive the Holy Spirit and the first reciprocate of the New covenant. The first of many to come.
Maybe the only one to receive confirmation of the Holy Spirit from John's baptisms until Christ ascended.


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Seems more like the first reciprocant of the new covenant



According to his fulfillment of the seven feast sabbaths, He is the New Covenant!


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> According to his fulfillment of the seven feast sabbaths, He is the New Covenant!



 Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Hebrews 9:15
> Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.



yep..
John 6: 35, 48 I am the bread of life
John 8: 12, 9:5 I am the light of the world
John 8: 58 Before Abraham was, I am
John 10:9 I am the door
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
John 11:25 I am the resurrection and the life
John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> yep..
> John 6: 35, 48 I am the bread of life
> John 8: 12, 9:5 I am the light of the world
> John 8: 58 Before Abraham was, I am
> John 10:9 I am the door
> John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
> John 11:25 I am the resurrection and the life
> John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life
> John 15:1 I am the true vine
> 
> God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"



I'm not sure what this has to do with Jesus being the Mediator between God and us.
I AM did send Moses. I AM did send i am, his son.
I don't see Jesus stating in any of those verse above that he is I Am.

John 20:21
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.”


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not sure what this has to do with Jesus being the Mediator between God and us.
> I AM did send Moses. I AM did send i am, his son.
> I don't see Jesus stating in any of those verse above that he is I Am.
> 
> John 20:21
> Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.”



Oh I had to pick on you a bit, but explain this one, after you think about what it is saying.

"I am He who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of me"


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Oh I had to pick on you a bit, but explain this one, after you think about what it is saying.
> 
> "I am He who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of me"



That one is pertinent, the Father bore witness when he sent the Holy Spirit at Jesus' baptism.

Now related to 8:58;

 The phrase “I am” occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as “I am he” or some equivalent (“I am he”—Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8. “It is I”—Matt. 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. “I am the one I claim to be”—John 8:24 and 28.). It is obvious that these translations are quite correct, and it is interesting that the phrase is translated as “I am” only in John 8:58. If the phrase in John 8:58 were translated “I am he” or “I am the one,” like all the others, it would be easier to see that Christ was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God (as indeed he was), spoken of throughout the Old Testament.

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos/john-8-58b

Biblical Unitarianism is not to be confused with Unitarian Universalism.

Biblical Unitarians believe in God, Jesus Christ, and the gift of holy spirit.

We believe that God has essentially given Jesus functional equality with Himself, and that only with regard to the throne is God greater than Jesus (Gen. 41:40; Matt. 28:18).

We believe that Jesus was designated by God to be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).


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## Artfuldodger

John 5:31-32
31"If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true. 32"There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.

John 8:17-18
17 In your Law it is written that the testimony of two people is true.18 I am one witness, and my Father who sent me is the other.

He is using the Jew's own law to show proof of whom  he is. Two completely different witnesses.


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## Artfuldodger

I don't get too hung up on interpretations using, "I AM", "I am he", etc., because most of those interpretations were from Trinitarian biased interpreters.

I feel it goes back to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a Helper. The Holy Spirit helps us learn what God is saying, he doesn't completely control our understanding. This is why we have so many different understandings. 
The Bible is the Word of God and was initially presented from God to men.
When Christian interpreters received the Holy Spirit, that was the only guidance they themselves received. This was after the Gifts ceased. They did the best they could just as we are doing. The Divine intervention was gone at this time.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't get too hung up on interpretations using, "I AM", "I am he", etc., because most of those interpretations were from Trinitarian biased interpreters.



There's a lot of different Interpretations these days. Many have fixed the mistranslation of he11, what about this so called Trinitarian bias, are all the interpretations biased?


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> There's a lot of different Interpretations these days. Many have fixed the mistranslation of he11, what about this so called Trinitarian bias, are all the interpretations biased?



Not anymore than they are about He11 and/or the second coming.
I would say not all of any interpretations are biased.
We are also biased by our indoctrination. 
When you read certain scriptures now than when  you were younger concerning He11 or the second coming as an example. You now read in a different mindset and it makes more sense. 
I might one day be a full Preterist if I'm lead that way to believe. It will be by guidance from the Holy Spirit and will have to be my own decision. Nobody else can do it for me.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Not anymore than they are about He11 and/or the second coming.
> I would say not all of any interpretations are biased.
> We are also biased by our indoctrination.
> When you read certain scriptures now than when  you were younger concerning He11 or the second coming as an example. You now read in a different mindset and it makes more sense.
> I might one day be a full Preterist if I'm lead that way to believe. It will be by guidance from the Holy Spirit and will have to be my own decision. Nobody else can do it for me.



The YLT is one that corrected he11, it's suppose to be the most literal translation, I don't know what it says about Jesus in relation to God though.

My goal in conversing about covenant eschatology is not to convert others. It started out as an attempt to disprove it to myself, just as the eternal punishment thread. I listen to what others say and consider their views. Now I just speak of it because it shows just how much greater Jesus is than the church teaches, and that's exciting to me.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> The YLT is one that corrected he11, it's suppose to be the most literal translation, I don't know what it says about Jesus in relation to God though.
> 
> My goal in conversing about covenant eschatology is not to convert others. It started out as an attempt to disprove it to myself, just as the eternal punishment thread. I listen to what others say and consider their views. Now I just speak of it because it shows just how much greater Jesus is than the church teaches, and that's exciting to me.



I understand and I have no intent on converting others either. My intent is just to just have everyone read the Bible as if they found it on a deserted island as Francis Chan suggests.


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