# Buckshot: Minimum Pattern = Maximum Effective Range



## .60 caliber buckshot (Mar 2, 2014)

What size bullseye would you choose to represent the vital zone of a deer?

When you pattern test your Shotgun/Choke/Buckshot  combination - what is the_ minimum number of your favorite buckshot pellet size_ that would deliver a reliable quick killing pattern hitting the vital zone of a deer?


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## DogHunter4Life (Mar 2, 2014)

this doesnt really answer your question but my browning silver 28 inch barrel with an extra full choke and 3 inch OO buck shot is my key to success.. i've killed a  truck load with this combination and have never patterned it.. afraid if i did it would make me shoot different and it only takes 1 buckshot sometimes to kill one


but if i was to want to pattern a gun for dog hunting i'd use a poster board from walmart and draw about 4 rings and aim for the middle at about 40 yards and then try several different chokes and buck shots to get it how you want it.

make sure you get several poster boards and do your rings on the different poster boards the same so that you can compare them

good luck


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## grouper throat (Mar 3, 2014)

I like about 15 #4s in an area slightly bigger than a regular plate. If those don't get it then he isn't going far with all those #4s hitting around his legs anyways. The one I killed last year with buckshot had 3 broken legs plus the vitals were ripped up.


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## GunnSmokeer (Mar 3, 2014)

*00 buck at 25 yards*

I'd use 00 buckshot.  9-pellets each .33" diameter and about 60 grains.   Muzzle velocity about 1300 f.p.s.

I expect a group of about 15" at 25 yards from a long-barreled shotgun with some kind of choke.

Even from a 20" barreled cylinder-bore riot shotgun, I'd still expect good buckshot to keep all the pellets  to pattern within about 18" or 20"

I normally consider the deer's vitals about 8" diameter. If I can consistently ring an 8" steel plate or knock over a coffee can at a certain distance with a certain gun and load, I say it's good enough for deer hunting from that distance.

So if I'm shooting 25 yards and getting a 15" - 20" pattern, obviously not ALL my pellets will hit in an 8" kill zone.  That's OK with me.  A few of them will be in there. Others will hit lungs, diaphram, neck, maybe spine, etc.  Plenty of opportunity for the "other pellets" (the ones that didn't stay in the 8" kill zone) to contribute to dropping the animal.

P.S. Per this guy's test of a 12-gauge 00 buckshot load at 21 feet, those .33 lead balls tend to penetrate about 12" to 15" deep into ballistic gelatin. That's pretty good penetration, even if they don't expand much and don't create huge messy wound channels with wide cavitation.

Video removed by moderation


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Mar 3, 2014)

DogHunter4Life said:


> this doesnt really answer your question but my browning silver 28 inch barrel with an extra full choke and 3 inch OO buck shot is my key to success.. i've killed a  truck load with this combination and have never patterned it.. afraid if i did it would make me shoot different and it only takes 1 buckshot sometimes to kill one



So you fear that if you knew how your gun patterned that you might not take some of the shots you have?


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Mar 3, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> I'd use 00 buckshot.  9-pellets each .33" diameter and about 60 grains.   Muzzle velocity about 1300 f.p.s.
> 
> I expect a group of about 15" at 25 yards from a long-barreled shotgun with some kind of choke.
> 
> ...


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Mar 3, 2014)

grouper throat said:


> I like about 15 #4s in an area slightly bigger than a regular plate. If those don't get it then he isn't going far with all those #4s hitting around his legs anyways. The one I killed last year with buckshot had 3 broken legs plus the vitals were ripped up.



So with #4B the minimum pattern, to establish the maximum range you will shoot, is 15 pellets in roughly a 10 to 12 inch circle?

How far then is your maximum range with what choke and what #4B load?


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## GunnSmokeer (Mar 4, 2014)

.60 caliber buckshot said:


> Are you saying the maximum range you will shoot with a 9 pellet 00B load is 25 yards with a 20" pattern?



Correct.  I would test the gun and the ammo prior to going hunting deer, but the distance that more than 2 out of 9 pellets would stray outside of a 20" circle, that would be too far.  I want most  00 buck pellets to hit a 5 gallon bucket, but I can live with a couple stray fliers.

EDITED TO  CLARIFY:  I think I could probably go 35 yards, since my goal would be only to get 7 out of 9 pellets in a 20" circle.
I just Googled for range reports from other people who patterned their shotguns with 00 Buck, and may people are getting 12" patterns at 25 yards. That's better than I expected. Of course the gun matters, the choke matters, and the ammo matters. One guy reported one brand of ammo giving 15" patterns while another gave 30" patterns from the SAME GUN at the SAME DISTANCE.


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Mar 4, 2014)

Twenty inches seems like an overly large vital zone area to base a minimum effective pattern on.  Wouldn't setting a minimum number of hits in the 10" pattern core be a better approach?

It seems to me that a shotgun that could not place 100% of a 9 pellet 00B pattern in 10" at twenty five yards, would not deliver an effective pattern at 40 yards.


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## DogHunter4Life (Mar 5, 2014)

.60 caliber buckshot said:


> So you fear that if you knew how your gun patterned that you might not take some of the shots you have?



No not at all .60. Let's say after 5 years with this shotgun I've killed 75% of the deer I've shot at (which I think is about right). Now all honesty most of the time that I think back on my kills I don't remember where I aimed or if I had one eye closed. I just know I've done it so long its habit to point and shoot in general direction (its more complicated than I make it sound, and safer). Let's say I pattern my gun and take my time and put the bead right on the bullseye and it shoots a foot low, then next time I have time to shoot my mind will make that foot accommodation and I may miss every time. 

This may not make sense but maybe it does. Once you get use to a gun and a choke and a shell it don't matter what the pattern looks like, because the style you shoot it may be perfect


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Mar 6, 2014)

DogHunter4Life:

I can certainly understand how you might feel that way about patterning. 

However, using your example:  What if the gun that, unknown to you, threw the pattern a foot low also produced a "doughnut" pattern as well.  Then your reluctance to pattern could very well be the reason for the 25% missed or wounded/unrecovered deer you shot at.





DogHunter4Life said:


> No not at all .60. Let's say after 5 years with this shotgun I've killed 75% of the deer I've shot at (which I think is about right). Now all honesty most of the time that I think back on my kills I don't remember where I aimed or if I had one eye closed. I just know I've done it so long its habit to point and shoot in general direction (its more complicated than I make it sound, and safer). Let's say I pattern my gun and take my time and put the bead right on the bullseye and it shoots a foot low, then next time I have time to shoot my mind will make that foot accommodation and I may miss every time.
> 
> This may not make sense but maybe it does. Once you get use to a gun and a choke and a shell it don't matter what the pattern looks like, because the style you shoot it may be perfect


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## Headsortails (Mar 6, 2014)

Are you saying that 25 % of deer shot at are missed or unrecovered?


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## DogHunter4Life (Mar 6, 2014)

true .60.. i'd hate to kill everything i shot at..haha kidding

headsortails... both.. i'm sure ive wounded a few over the years and i'm sure i've just flat out missed some over the years..i've flat out missed one before at 6 steps..the wadding went farther than the deer was..it happens i reckon!


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## grouper throat (Mar 7, 2014)

I do not worry about my shotgun pattern much because if I can see over 30-40 yds I have a rifle in my hand. Half the guys I run dogs with don't even carry shotguns.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Mar 7, 2014)

Focus on pattern can neglect the importance of penetration.  Regardless of pattern, pellets need to penetrate at least 10" to do their job.  00 buck and 25 yards.  Sure, if a pellet clips the spine, deer can be dropped further, but the odds favor long tracking jobs and iffy recoveries that come down to the skills of the dogs, the lay of the land, and the size of the property (or the willingness of the hunter to trespass in pursuit of his wounded deer).  If you can track legally for a mile or two you have more leeway than if the property line is 1/4 mile away.


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Mar 7, 2014)

With conventional small buckshot*, (1, 00, 000), penetration without a concentrated core pattern is a recipe for wounded and lost game.  Which is why I find the "pattern does not matter" attitude of many buckshot users to be appalling.

That _most_ factory buckshot is formed from soft lead does not help pattern or penetration.

*Largest commercial lead buckshot load, (Dixie Triball), uses hard cast .60"/ 320 grain pellets.


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## GunnSmokeer (Mar 7, 2014)

*two hits*

HYPOTHETICAL:  so are you saying that if your shotgun and that particular ammo throws a wide pattern, but evenly distributed (no "doughnut hole") and you shoot from a distance where you get 2 or 3 buckshot pellets (let's say size 00- there's a lot of data and real-world feedback on how they penetrate in meat) in the eight-inch kill zone, and the other 7 or 10 pellets hitting everything from the neck to the flank, shoulders to elbows...

... that would be unacceptable?  Since only 2 out of 9 (or 3 out of 12, or 3 out of 15) buckshot pellets in the right spot can't be counted on to do the job?

You'd want "most" of your pellet payload to impact within that 8" kill spot around your aiming point?  (I agree that would be nice, but for most shotguns that would mean really close-range work).


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Mar 7, 2014)

Gunsmokeer:

Perhaps I should clarify my statement thus:

With conventional small buckshot, (1, 00, 000), penetration without a concentrated core pattern is a recipe for wounded and lost game _at all but extremely short range_. Which is why I find the "pattern does not matter" attitude of many buckshot users to be appalling.

For years the talk of dog deer hunting camps has been tight buckshot patterns.  In light of the improvements made in factory buckshot ammo and chokes in the last four decades, it is hard to believe that hunters today would settle for just 20-25 yard effectiveness. It is equally hard to believe hunters would not want to establish a what the actual maximum effective range of their deer gun is by taking the time to seriously pattern it.  It seems to me that pattern testing a buckshot gun is the shotgun equivalent of sighting in a rifle!


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## DogHunter4Life (Mar 7, 2014)

heres why i think a "pattern" does not really matter

how many true dog hunters out there get those nice and stopped poses at 20 or 30 steps?? not many.. so why would you pattern a gun when almost none of your shots are like they are when you are patterning your gun?? everything comes into effect...wind, rain, humidity, deer speed, top of box shooting downward or shooting on a level, bushes or trees in the way, full out sprint or trotting, and 10,000 more conditions.... 

my point is that to me it is more important how that particular person feels and shoots with his gun in the field than just saying i put 9 of 12 shot in a pie plate at 40 yards... just my 2 cents!!

another thing that annoys me (i'm sure i'll get bashed on this one too) is all these folks wanting to take clean ethical shots dog hunting.. geez folks.. maybe 10% of all dog hunting shots are ethical.. i know nobody wants to wound a deer but if you wait on complete ethical shots, you may not ever shoot!!


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## Slugg (Mar 8, 2014)

The good and the bad of a shotgun is that multiple projectile aspect.  I work medical, I've seen a guy shot in the face less than 15ft with #6 and only ending up blind, while another man was shot at from roughly 75-100yds and died from one pellet going in under his armpit and hitting his aorta.  It was 8 pellets of buckshot and only 3 or 4 hit the house he was standing in the doorway of.  

To answer your question, I shoot  8 pellet hornady critical for deer, it patterns best for my 26" full choke.  I go with the furthest I can keep 4 out of 8 pellets in 12".  You can find all over the internet how 00 buckshot has enough penetration.  At the distances your worrying about not penetrating enough, your probably not going to be grouping well enough to responsibly take the shot.   If i were shooting triball .6 pellets I'd want 2/3 hitting within 12"  Even though, if you think about it, a ton of deer have been dropped with lighter projectiles for years.


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## GunnSmokeer (Mar 8, 2014)

*going to make me test!*

That's it !!!  
You guys have spiked my curiosity and caused me to recognize that my memory isn't what it used to be.
I don't remember if I ever patterned my shotgun or not.
I am going shooting tomorrow.
I will take the shotgun (with the longer sporting barrel with a "modified" choke) and pattern it with buckshot. 
My goal will be to answer this question:

"How far can I shoot and still get a clear majority of my pellet load in a 20-inch circle."

And, if I have time, I'll stack up some soft pine boards or sheets of scrap drywall and see how much less penetration there is at 40 yards (what I consider about max distance for buckshot hunting) compared to 50 feet (an easy point blank distance for scatterguns).


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## DogHunter4Life (Mar 9, 2014)

i'm curious how it turns out...add pictures of course!!


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## GunnSmokeer (Mar 11, 2014)

*done--  I was wrong*

Done!   But, not with my 12 gauge with the fixed bored choke.

I used my 20 gauge, 22" vent rib barrel, that uses short little screw-in choke tubes.

I put in the "FULL" choke tube and shot Federal 3" magnum 20 ga. buckshot, #2 buck (the largest size I can find at most retail locations). That's an 18-pellet load. 

RESULTS on PATTERN (shooting at large sheets of white paper) and PENETRATION (shooting at a baffle stack of 3/4" soft pine boards, spaced about an inch apart from each other .


25 yds  pattern: way too wide.  Over 24" and beyond the edges of my target paper.  Gaps in the pattern the size of a football. 15 out of 18 pellets landed on the poster-board paper.    Only "one" pellet would have hit an 8" circle around my aim point.

25 yards penetration:  weak.  Pellets penetrated two of the 0.75" pine boards and bounced off the third.


50 feet- pattern: better.  17 out of 18 landed in a 20" circle, and "four" were in the 8" center kill zone. So IF my pellets had sufficient penetration, I'd say this pattern would be OK for deer hunting.  But it's only 50 feet!  _I expected this kind of pattern at 25 or 35 yards._

50 feet-- penetration:  same lack of penetration. Two boards totaling 1.5" of soft pine wood got penetrated, but the next board in line was just dented. 

30 feet pattern:  Now THIS gave a pretty tight pattern, but man is it close. Ridiculously close. Spitting distance, it seemed like.  The pattern was about 8" wide. So all 18 pellets hit together in group the size of a canteloupe. 

30 feet penetration:  Still unimpressive. They drilled through 1.5" of soft wood (I shot both the stack of 3/4" boards and another test -shot at some 2x8 lumber (not pressure treated). In comparison, I shot my 3.3" barreled compact 9mm at this same wood, and it went through 4.5" of wood and embedded itself in the last board for a total of nearly 5 inches (hollowpoint, but it didn't expand with a plugged nose).

BOTTOM LINE:   My shotgun throw much wider patterns than I expected, and while I knew that #2 buckshot (only .27 caliber) was only throwing about as much lead as a .22 short, I just expected more penetration.  

Pics later. They're in my phone with a million others and I don't feel like sorting them out right now.


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## outside13 (Mar 11, 2014)

The last deer I shot with buckshot was about 40 yds. 2 shots did the job, one thing I noticed was 1 round was plated and the other was just lead, the plated buckshot penetrated through deer and was found under hide, almost full penetration where the regular lead pellets where found in the deer's chest cavity, but had flattened out somewhat, now that being said, the plated shot was 2 3/4, and the non plated was 3", difference in speed or harder shot, not sure, but shoot nothing but 2 3/4 loads of plated now.


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## tmj (Mar 15, 2014)

After doing this for almost 38 years I can honestly say, I don't know. I've seen older gentleman kill them DRT with the same gun they've been shooting for 40 years and WHATEVER buckshot they happened to have. I've seen seen folks with the "latest and greatest" not be able to hit sand falling off a camel. There are just too many variables that come with each situation to know for sure. I've stood on the dog box with my Dad and watched him roll them up at 70-80 yards and watched folks COMPLETELY miss at 12 steps. As I've gotten older I've started leaning more towards "it's the Indian and not the arrow".


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## DogHunter4Life (Mar 16, 2014)

agree 100% tmj!!  too many variables to put most of the weight on the gun and its pattern


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Mar 16, 2014)

.60 caliber buckshot said:


> With conventional small buckshot, (1, 00, 000), penetration without a concentrated core pattern is a recipe for wounded and lost game.  Which is why I find the "pattern does not matter" attitude of many buckshot users to be appalling.
> 
> That _most_ factory buckshot is formed from soft lead does not help pattern or penetration.



Why waste your time being appalled at what other hunters do if they are not putting people at risk and not breaking the law?

Lots of hunting and fishing practices carry greater risk of lost game than my preferred practices, but if other sportsmen are safe and legal and having a good time, then more power to them.  Who are we to judge?

The PETA types are a bigger threat to hunting and fishing than safe and legal sportsman who occasionally lose an animal.  "Holier than thou" sportsman who pretend to have the moral high ground are a threat too, especially when they push for their personal ethical views codified and enforced by bigger government.


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## outside13 (Mar 17, 2014)

Yes, I will admit, you can spend alot of time checking your pattern, I also think you can get too tight of a pattern as well, in my early years, most of my deer were killed with regular 2 3/4 00 and improved cylinder.


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Mar 21, 2014)

Excellent example of why patterning buckshot loads is vitally important to deer hunters.  This particular Gun/Load/Choke combination is obviously lacking in effective pattern density much beyond 20 yards!

With a different choke constriction the picture could be very different!







GunnSmokeer said:


> Done!   But, not with my 12 gauge with the fixed bored choke.
> 
> I used my 20 gauge, 22" vent rib barrel, that uses short little screw-in choke tubes.
> 
> ...


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Mar 21, 2014)

*"heres why i think a "pattern" does not really matter"*

Perhaps this earlier post will provide some context for your position:




DogHunter4Life said:


> i shoot 3 inch OO buck and have a extra full choke and i've killed a few over 100 steps running dogs..probably more luck than anything but if I was still hunting I wouldn't try one over 50 yards, but dog hunting as long as I can see the horns i dont care how far he is as long as its a safe shot (i've shot 5 times at one over 200 yards)--->i just couldnt stand him not at least being shot at



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DogHunter4Life said:


> heres why i think a "pattern" does not really matter
> 
> how many true dog hunters out there get those nice and stopped poses at 20 or 30 steps?? not many.. so why would you pattern a gun when almost none of your shots are like they are when you are patterning your gun?? everything comes into effect...wind, rain, humidity, deer speed, top of box shooting downward or shooting on a level, bushes or trees in the way, full out sprint or trotting, and 10,000 more conditions....
> 
> ...


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Mar 21, 2014)

Pattern testing can provide a basis for having two different buckshot loads with you.  Depending on the cover, you would then have the choice of using the wider patterning load or the tighter patterning - longer range load.





outside13 said:


> Yes, I will admit, you can spend alot of time checking your pattern, I also think you can get too tight of a pattern as well, in my early years, most of my deer were killed with regular 2 3/4 00 and improved cylinder.


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## DogHunter4Life (Mar 23, 2014)

.60 caliber buckshot said:


> Pattern testing can provide a basis for having two different buckshot loads with you.  Depending on the cover, you would then have the choice of using the wider patterning load or the tighter patterning - longer range load.



so your going to keep several different shells in your pocket and when you see the deer run across the road you will 1st decide buck or a doe 2nd decide if it has forks (depending on club) and 3rdly decide what the distance is and then finally decide which shell to put in your gun??


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## outside13 (Mar 24, 2014)

Naw, for me I just like to know what will give me the best all around pattern out to 40-45 yds. But I do carry a couple extra chokes along with me, do to the fact I have hunted places that you would be lucky to get a 30yd. shot and then would be in clear cuts and thinned planted pines later, but I think probably any gun with a modified choke shooting 00 with shots around the 40 yd.,mark would be just fine.


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Mar 24, 2014)

*Getting back on topic:*

What size circle would you choose to represent the vital zone of a deer for the purpose of pattern testing?

And:

When pattern testing your Shotgun/Choke/Buckshot combination - what would you consider to be the minimum number of hits, with your favorite buckshot pellet size, needed in that vital zone target to represent  a reliable quick kill?


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## outside13 (Mar 24, 2014)

Not sure if you're asking me or not, but I'll answer for myself, I use a sheet of plywood and staple two sheets of poster paper to it, then draw a 24 inch circle in the middle, then measure off 40 yds., and shoot. My two loads will put every pellet in that circle, as for pellets in vitals, 3-4 00 or 000 at 40-45 yds. will do just fine.


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## outside13 (Mar 24, 2014)

Also knowing how my gun patterns, I've only had a few that I put the whole load of buckshot in the chest area, a big difference between controlled conditions and reel world shooting in the woods with them darting all over.


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## jfish (Mar 25, 2014)

I used to use (years ago) a dog feed sack turned sideways to simulate a deer. I patterned it at 50 60 and 75. Winchester XX in black box used to be the best. No white buffer crap came out either like federals.

My dad always said shoot till you couldn't see them anymore. Within reason of course which was inside 75 but try them over that of it was a biggun!  Guy my age now we were teens then had a 20ga that would kill the crap out of one at a 100yds he did it several times.  It was like a model before an 870 or so. Have to dig to find model. Wasn't long barrel either. 26" I think. 

Just was awesome. Had a Springfield pump that did same but was a 12ga and would kill one at a 100yd. Those are freak guns. Some used to use Brownings with 32" barrels for extended shots also. 

Try the feed sack. It works. Dog hunting used to be so much fun. My kid and my nephews will never know. It's just not the same anymore. 

Good luck


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## jfish (Mar 25, 2014)

By that I mean say 9 or so out of 15 from 00 hitting it solid where a deers vitals would be. Or number 1's you would want more at best. Don't expect 13 out of 15 to be there at 75 yds is what I'm saying. It is also possible to have to tight a choke it will make buckshot cross each other right after leaving the barrel. 

Copper plated is the way to go. They don't dissipate when they hit bone like lead buckshot.


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## Big7 (Mar 30, 2014)

Headsortails said:


> Are you saying that 25 % of deer shot at are missed or unrecovered?



Need to find another sport.. Like Golf. That way if you are only 75% you won't be wounding animals only to die a slow, agonizing death and the meat never being utilized.

Fishing? Miss one.. No harm, no foul.

If 75% was the best I could do, I would just quit!


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## DogHunter4Life (Mar 30, 2014)

Big7 said:


> Need to find another sport.. Like Golf. That way if you are only 75% you won't be wounding animals only to die a slow, agonizing death and the meat never being utilized.
> 
> Fishing? Miss one.. No harm, no foul.
> 
> If 75% was the best I could do, I would just quit!



You must not dog hunt much is only thing I have to say. 75% is an outstanding number for the way we run down here and using shotgun only. 3 out of 4 is good even still hunting. These deer are usually running and usually 20-75 yards away. I'll take that any year. Shoot most of the time id like to have 4 chances to shoot. Any real dog hunter knows you kill some, you wound some, and you flat out miss some. If you can't stand it, then don't go or don't pull the trigger!!


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## outside13 (Mar 31, 2014)

DH4L, you are right, it happens to all, rifle,bow,dog hunting, people miss for one reason or another, I would hope anyone who misses one, does all they can do to find the animal, and finish the job as quickly as they can, I personally think you owe that to the animal and sport. Again, I am no expert by any means, I have just spent the time to test my guns with different loads and chokes to get the best patterns I can within my determined ranges, be it shotgun or rifle, and I use that info to determine my maximum ranges under controlled conditions, because we all know it's not the same as real world conditions.


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## jfish (Mar 31, 2014)

what DH4L is saying I think is that this is little different than shooting a deer standing still.  Yes the occasional deer will jump out stand then run, hopefully you get a shot while standing.  More than likely these deer are at a run.  Sometimes all you can see is a flash, and I am not exaggerating that.  For instance a big buck can run so fast but so low it will amaze you at how low they can get.  The only way I can explain this is go dog hunting and have one come by very close at full speed.  Most are still at a good run.  This is like shooting birds instead of still hunting.  The same theory applies.  At times you have to learn to lead the shot according to the varibles given.  No one is better than 75% on average shooting birds and seriously its nearly the same thing.  You pattern buckshot in a gun to see what it shoots the best is correct but just because you can hit 10 out of 15 pellets in a circle at 50yds doesn't mean your going to hit a running target in the shoulder for a dead kill.  Sometimes you have to wait for the deer to clear trees, trucks, sometimes even people before shooting so that you have a clear target/shot.  My point is that there are a lot of variables in shooting a running deer.  The good shots seem to be gone.  My grandpa shot them with a 22mag running.  In the head.  I am not exaggerating.  Anyone here in my home town knows it.  It happened a lot.  Sure he missed a few but he was an exceptional shot.  Its not even legal now and for a good reason also.  Just try and imagine shooting a moving target first before criticizing a guy for asking.  Its very different from target scenarios unless you have been there in the heat of the moment so to speak.

I don't mean that bad in anyway or directed negatively towards any person.  

Dog hunting is something everyone should try.  Some say not but I have seen a few converted that said it.  Dog hunting was a tradition that is way different now than it was years ago.  It used to be very laid back, fun, and used not to cost an arm and leg.  Now days its trucks, guns, radios, tracking collars, etc.  Not all of that is bad.  GPS collars are outstanding, wish I had them years ago.  The sound of a pack of hounds coming to you, the breaking of brush, and then......a 40 pound yearling pops out is nearly enough to stop your heart.  You were all excited just to say hey if you only had a rack.  Just wishing you had just had a big buck pop out instead.  Its a rush.


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Mar 31, 2014)

The quote below is an example of the rhetorical technique known as _reductio ad absurdum_. 




DogHunter4Life said:


> so your going to keep several different shells in your pocket and when you see the deer run across the road you will 1st decide buck or a doe 2nd decide if it has forks (depending on club) and 3rdly decide what the distance is and then finally decide which shell to put in your gun??


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## Big7 (Mar 31, 2014)

Usually, with most people still hunting they either hit and kill or just flat out miss. There is a big difference ETCHIALLY to just spray lead when you admit you know you only have a 75% chance.

Not exactly the same as spraying lead at rats in the landfill.

To each his own I guess.

AND... I think MOST still hunters are way above 75%.

That's just me. Recon someone needs to start a poll??


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Mar 31, 2014)

Most bad buckshot stories you hear are from unpatterned shotguns at excessive range.

Also known as:

Operator error:_* Failure to test equipment!*_


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## jfish (Mar 31, 2014)

I know I am going to get blasted for this and I don't mean it personally but hunting with a bow and bleeding one out or waiting an hour or so to start tracking one (which I have seen with guns also, still hunting) is no different than what dhfl is talking about. It doesn't happen often he was just saying that it happens. 

I just watched a hunting show few weeks ago where guy shot a huge 8 pointer in the morning hours. Finally found it like at dusk dark. He tracked it and made it get up twice. That isn't ethical either is my point. That same thig happens with still hunting at times. It's something you do not want to happen but it happens is what these guys are trying to say. 

Everything cannot be a target range scenario. If it were it would be called killing deer and not hunting deer.


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Mar 31, 2014)

jfish,

The whole point of this thread was to open a discussion of what constitutes a minimum quick killing pattern in order to establish a reasonable maximum range for popular buckshot sizes.  

No one reasonably contends that buckshot pattern testing completely equals field use.  The same is true of sighting in a rifle, slug gun, or muzzle loader.  Certainly practicing with a bow on a backyard range fits as well. 

Unfortunately the thread completely sidetracked when some contended that varying field conditions negated any need to determine the effective limits of the gun, choke and load combination.  




jfish said:


> I know I am going to get blasted for this and I don't mean it personally but hunting with a bow and bleeding one out or waiting an hour or so to start tracking one (which I have seen with guns also, still hunting) is no different than what dhfl is talking about. It doesn't happen often he was just saying that it happens.
> 
> I just watched a hunting show few weeks ago where guy shot a huge 8 pointer in the morning hours. Finally found it like at dusk dark. He tracked it and made it get up twice. That isn't ethical either is my point. That same thig happens with still hunting at times. It's something you do not want to happen but it happens is what these guys are trying to say.
> 
> Everything cannot be a target range scenario. If it were it would be called killing deer and not hunting deer.


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## DogHunter4Life (Mar 31, 2014)

i agree with you jfish.. i would have replied sooner but was at work all day.. dog hunters get bashed no matter what we do.. we cant do anything right if you talk to non-doghunters..good thing is that we live in a country that still allows this practice and i'm going to do it until i die

i agree that there are more wounded with dog hunting..i'd like to say DUH!!  doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out..do i make unethical shots sometimes running dogs?? heck yes i do..  so does everyone else at times..its no difference than somebody shooting one with a rifle farther than they have practiced, or shooting one right at dark, or shooting when you can only see certain parts of the deer.

i agree that this thread was sidetracked and some of it is my fault but you can go out and shoot your shotgun with as many different loads but it wont do very much.. yeah you may find the tightest pattern gun but some people doesnt need that

i liked the analogy with dove hunting.. anything that is moving at a good pace is going to be TOUGH to hit no matter how good of a shot you are.. and big7 i wouldnt want to hunt with you..hard to compete with someone that never misses!! i like hearing those miss stories


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Mar 31, 2014)

A digression for the love of dog hunting:  

Here is an online article complete with a B&W photo archive of how a Traditional Southern Hunting Club still follows the age-old traditions of Deep South Deer Hunting. Hauntingly old and refreshingly new, the images of horses, hounds, shotguns and _neckties_ show how it was, and still is... 

http://gardenandgun.com/article/call-hunt

http://gardenandgun.com/content/middleton-hunting-club


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## jfish (Apr 1, 2014)

I know 60 caliber I stated above what my experience was with buckshot.  I hate that some don't have "if you cant say anything good why say anything at all" approach.  No reason to be so negative on a thread just because you don't agree with some thing.  If you have valid input then use it if not just don't say anything.

Buckshot  is a crazy animal really.  Only thing you can do is try and get the best pattern in the target world no different than any other weapon.  Penetration will depend upon that to a certain extent.  I have seen them barely penetrate the skin at 50 yds to go all the way through them at 75.  Crazy as it sounds it just dependant totally upon the conditions at hand and shot placement.  Bone stops it pretty fast.  Shoot a hog with it and you will see.  Just my opinion based on my past experience.

j





.60 caliber buckshot said:


> jfish,
> 
> The whole point of this thread was to open a discussion of what constitutes a minimum quick killing pattern in order to establish a reasonable maximum range for popular buckshot sizes.
> 
> ...


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## JustUs4All (Apr 5, 2014)

.60 caliber buckshot said:


> What size bullseye would you choose to represent the vital zone of a deer?
> 
> When you pattern test your Shotgun/Choke/Buckshot  combination - what is the_ minimum number of your favorite buckshot pellet size_ that would deliver a reliable quick killing pattern hitting the vital zone of a deer?



On topic:  
 In 00 I would be very satisfied with one pellet in the killing zone for a reliable quick kill, BUT-


 Slightly off topic:
 For me, the test for an “ethical” quick kill shot is different between hunting with dogs and shotguns and stand or still hunting with a rifle.  When hunting with dogs the hunter is a unit comprised of himself and his dog(s).  A seriously wounded deer has a much greater chance of being run down by the dog part of the unit or harried to the point of bleeding out or exhaustion when it can be recovered because the dog part of the unit knows where the deer is.  In my opinion, the dog hunter has a much higher probability of recovering a wounded animal simply because the dog is a part of the unit.


 For this reason the number of pellets in the killing zone of a deer at a particular range is not that important in dog hunting.  It is more like hunting quail.  The purpose of the shot is to stop the quail from flying off so that the dog can find it.  If the bird drops dead, that is great, but if it is stopped from flying off the dog will probably  make the hunt a successful one.   


 Patterning a shotgun is important both to quail shooting and deer shooting, but more from the standpoint of  how even pattern is and how far it holds tight enough to reliably critically wound the animal hunted.



But that is just one old man's opinion.


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## asc (Apr 5, 2014)

JustUs4All said:


> On topic:
> In 00 I would be very satisfied with one pellet in the killing zone for a reliable quick kill, BUT-
> 
> 
> ...


Well said sir.

IMO .60 cal is just a troll.


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## DogHunter4Life (Apr 5, 2014)

asc said:


> Well said sir.
> 
> IMO .60 cal is just a troll.




ding ding ding..we have a winner!!


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## lonewolf247 (Apr 5, 2014)

JustUs4All said:


> On topic:
> In 00 I would be very satisfied with one pellet in the killing zone for a reliable quick kill, BUT-
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, I'd agree with the deer dogs having a much better chance of finding the deer than a wounded deer without dogs on it.  Usually, if a deer is wounded, and the dogs don't quit him, because of the shot, or blood scent, that deer will be run down and found. 

On the topic of buckshot, I personally didn't have the best results with it when I started deer hunting at age 10 to about 14. Part of it I guess was my lack of knowledge of the effective range.  I'd always try to push my shots too far.

It wasn't until I tried to pattern my gun at about 45 yards and realized how few pellets would hit a 4x4 sheet of plywood. My best advice would be to try a few different loads and see which works best if you prefer hunting deer with a shotgun.

For me, once I moved up to a rifle, I'd never go back to a shotgun for deer reguardless of how thick the cover, even with running dogs.  

Unless I was in a state that only allowed shotguns, I wouldn't do it.

Just me though.....


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Apr 7, 2014)

Before posting this response, I conducted a search of the forum for buckshot discussions. It became clear, that many were searching for answers on how far conventional buckshot can be effective.  Indeed the answers seemed to reflect a great divide among hunters that use buckshot. 

The divide appeared to settled along the issues of pattern and maximum range.  Just as in this thread, most would indicate a preference for this or that buckhshot load, but when the word "pattern" came up the division was clear.  In so many words the answers of those who actually pattern their loads, spoke of maximum ranges under 50 yards. The non-patterning side seemed to  casually mention shooting at ranges of 70 to 100 yards!  What a difference!   

Those who wrote of deer that were dropped in their tracks - or nearly so -  mentioned multiple vital area hits.  Frankly that coincides with my own hunting experience with the big smoothbore.

Yes, there will be times when misjudged range or other circumstance leads to a "golden BB" vital hit where the deer is recovered - often only due to canine assistance.  However, I don't think for a minute that anyone on this forum would want that to be a regular part of their hunting experience.  

It seems to me that taking time to pattern your buckshot gun is no different than making sure your other equipment is in top shape for the hunting season.  

When it comes to buckshot, I think the following is excellent advice:



DogHunter4Life said:


> just pattern it and see..


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## Dustin (May 8, 2014)

.60 caliber buckshot said:


> When you pattern test your Shotgun/Choke/Buckshot  combination - what is the_ minimum number of your favorite buckshot pellet size_ that would deliver a reliable quick killing pattern hitting the vital zone of a deer?



Short answer, there isn't a minimum number, I shot a buck at 10 yds once with Remington 3 1/2" 15 pellet 00 buck out of a Mossberg 835 with a 24" barrel, pellets stopped inside the far side of the hide pattern was about 12" diameter, NO pellets penetrated the deer, he was DRT.

Same load, gun, etc. at 85 to 100 yds (not sure exactly how far but at least 85) shot a buck two pellets hit the deer... one hit his G2 and broke off a 3" piece of antler, the other hit his shoulder went through his heart and out the other side of the deer... complete penetration, also DRT. 



.60 caliber buckshot said:


> What if the gun that, unknown to you, threw the pattern a foot low also produced a "doughnut" pattern as well.  Then your reluctance to pattern could very well be the reason for the 25% missed or wounded/unrecovered deer you shot at.



When I first got that Mossberg I patterned it, out of 25 shots of the Remington 3 1/2" 15 pellet 00 buck, 6 of those shots were "doughnuts", 4 had flyers everywhere, 14 put 5 pellets or more inside a 24" circle at 40 yds and 1 put all 15 pellets inside a 10" circle at 40 yds... that's why patterning isn't as important at some people say, what happens if one of those doughnuts happens when I shoot at a deer? but, what if the perfect pattern happens? That's the variables that can happen in a real world experience.

I also have patterned a Mossberg 500, Remington 2 3/4" 9 pellet 00 buck, out of 5 shots, 4 were around a 20" pattern at 30 yards, 1 put all 9 pellets inside a 8" circle at 30 yds. Why?



.60 caliber buckshot said:


> Excellent example of why patterning buckshot loads is vitally important to deer hunters.  This particular Gun/Load/Choke combination is obviously lacking in effective pattern density much beyond 20 yards!



See above of why the standard thing of "fire a shot or two and see how it patterns" doesn't work, you might get that magical shot or two and the rest not be worth crap.



.60 caliber buckshot said:


> Pattern testing can provide a basis for having two different buckshot loads with you.  Depending on the cover, you would then have the choice of using the wider patterning load or the tighter patterning - longer range load.



When I go with my 835 I always have two different sizes with me, Remington 15 pellet 00 buck and Winchester 3 1/2" 54 pellet #4 buck, first shot is for power all others are extra holes. sometimes I throw a .69 (I believe) round ball in the with some 0 buck under it.

As far as changing with the terrain, patterning is not really gonna help, not that I can see anyway.



.60 caliber buckshot said:


> What size circle would you choose to represent the vital zone of a deer for the purpose of pattern testing?



Take the average size of deer in your area, look at a shoulder mount for example, measure from belly to back at front shoulder, I have a doe mount that goes 21" so I use a 24" circle as the kill zone size.

All that said, I've never dog hunted a day in my life, as much as I would LOVE to do it.


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## grouper throat (May 9, 2014)

^well that sums it up nicely. I understand patterning your gun but if a buck is doing 30 mph when he hits the road or flying by me I want a little more spread than a turkey-type pattern. I have missed way more from a tight pattern than crippled from a loose. I'll be honest too, I like to see a dog pile on a buck.


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## DogHunter4Life (May 9, 2014)

thats right grouper!!


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## Nannyman (May 11, 2014)

What is described above is not true patterning. All you have done is take a shell you think you like and see what the pattern looks like. 
True patterning includes multiple loads and or chokes if your gun uses chokes. Certain guns and or chokes like certain shells or size of buckshot. 
Longer barrels seem to produce more consistent patterns with a wider variety of shells. I started checking buckshot patterning when I went to a 21" barrel. I love how easy it is to get into and out of truck and in heavy cover. It just took more pattern work to get consistent patterns. 
Some guns don't like OOB. They may like OOO or #1. If you like a size check multiple brands to get what you want. 
If you must use X brand then check the different size buckshot to get patterns you want. 
At some point in life, you have to do the things required to do something right.


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## Seth carter (Jun 27, 2014)

Killed a doe last year with one pellet hit her in the backstrap and cut an artery she bled out on the inside in 50 yards never left a drop of a trail


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## JohnK (Jul 22, 2014)

I guess I'm doing something wrong because none of the buckshot loads, adjustable chokes or either of the 835 shotguns I tried would put the majority of the payload into a predrawn 30 inch circle at 40 yards. Add a sight and it looks much better but one would have to pattern to use one.

http://www.buckmasters.com/buckshot-today.aspx


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## lolliepop (Aug 16, 2014)

> the deer is recovered - often only due to canine assistance. However, I don't think for a minute that anyone on this forum would want that to be a regular part of their hunting experience.


recovery due to canine assistance is expected from my hounds. that dude never run dogs


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Sep 20, 2014)

“Patterning your shotgun is as important as sighting in your rifle-- until you do it there is no way to tell where your gun shoots and how it really performs.”  John Haviland


The dogs may run the deer by you, but it is your responsibility to kill the deer _quickly_ with solid multiple pellet hits to the vitals.


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## robert carter (Dec 23, 2014)

Growing up I did not get to kill a deer with dogs but did all of my hunting with a single barrel 12 gauge 28" mod. choked. I did`nt waste shells patterning it and bought what they had in town. I treated my deer hunting with it kinda like my bird hunting. A fella learns when not to shoot at a dove or when a Turkey is too far or even a squirrel. I did`nt have to measure anything I just took shots at a RANGE I knew I would kill at. I never just slung lead hoping. I`m sure most all that hunt with buckshot shoot within the range of their equipment and have learned that range through experience. Kind of like the way I hunt now with a longbow. If he is too far there is always tomorrow. A beginner cannot understand this and a fella just wanting to kill and not hunt will just sling lead. We all miss sometimes but must take ethical shots if we intend to feel good about what we are doing. Happy Holidays all.RC


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## mikelowery9 (Dec 23, 2014)

Been dog hunting for 25 years(I'm 29) I have seen deer killed at 130+ paces and I have seen deer shot at 10 yards and run off never to be seen again. It's dog hunting your never going to predict where they are going to pop out or how slow/fast they will be traveling. My personal opinion is patterning a shotgun is a waste of time. If you shoot your gun enough you will know when the right time to pull the trigger is. Your going to miss running dogs, that is all there is to it. If someone tells you they never miss, well they retired after the first kill or you have a liar on your hands. Best bet to be succesful is to get somewhere you can see,hide,and be quite at the same time. Consistently killing deer behind dogs isn't something you calculate or measure, it comes from years of experience. Once you figure it out you will know what I mean. Until then sit back and enjoy the race.


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## DogHunter4Life (Dec 24, 2014)

good post mike...dog hunting you get to know your gun very well... esp if you use it  to shoot duck, dove, turkeys, and deer..  i trust my gun 100% and trust my shooting with that gun 100%

-i have let alot of bucks go because of road being too narrow, or not knowing if someone is on the other side of the clear cut, or just not comfortable with the shot...but i've shot at deer well over the recommended distance because of probably never seeing that deer again (i have killed 3 over 100 yards and 2 were running).

-my eyesight is not the best in the world so if i can see horns and its a safe shot...i'm shooting without a doubt.


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## GunnSmokeer (Dec 25, 2014)

*ethical*

I donno, DogHunter4life....  taking 100 yard shots at moving deer with a shotgun you've never patterned (you told us that earlier in this thread) doesn't sound ethical.

Sure, you may kill some deer that far out. And you'll wound some deer.  Some of the wounded deer will suffer for a while and eventually die or be too weak to fight off predators.  Some of the wounded deer will recover and be healthy again.

You wrote: 
_Any real dog hunter knows you kill some, you wound some, and you flat out miss some. If you can't stand it, then don't go or don't pull the trigger!!_

While I agree that we can't guarantee any particular outcome of taking a shot, I think we owe a duty of care and consideration to the animals we hunt to take them cleanly with a humane kill.  Not pop a few pellets into their guts and lungs and let them choke to death on their own blood a half hour later, or die of blood poisoning from the .30 round lead ball in the deer's bowels.

choot at 'em all _and let God decide if you eat venison or not_ just doesn't sound like ethical hunting to me.

__________________


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## JustUs4All (Dec 26, 2014)

To the folks who seem to be questioning the ethics of shotgunning running deer or one that you consider to be at too far distant:
Have you ever been dove or duck hunting?  
Before you went, did you pattern your gun with the brand and load of shells you were using that day?  They are all different, even different lots of the same shell.
Did you do this test at every range at which you might try a bird? 
Do you only take shots at birds that you know for certain you will place pellets where they will produce a clean quick kill?
If you do all of that, have you ever been guilty of a quick follow on shot (or two) at a bird that you have already missed once?
When you do make that crippling shot where the bird sets and glides into the tree line where the briars make for tough going, do you turn your back on the birds that are flying in and go after the cripple? (The deer dogs do.)

Hunting deer with dogs and shotguns is kin to hunting quail or rabbit only more ground is covered and things develop quickly.  It is not at all like hunting deer without dogs.  Remember, in those situations where a rifle or bow hunter would be backing out and trying to find a dog, the dog hunter already has a dog on the track.  Slowing the deer is frequently all it takes.


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## GunnSmokeer (Dec 26, 2014)

*100 yards*

The issue isn't just that the deer is moving.

It's the distance.  100 yards, with a shotgun and buckshot.

I think many guns and loads CANNOT be effective at that range.   It is UNREASONABLE to assume that throw a tight enough pattern.  You should test the gun and PROVE IT. See for yourself. 

Would you hunt deer with a .32 caliber semi-auto pistol?





Suppose you could dump all 8 shots at a running deer in 2 seconds, before he got out of range, and you could keep all your shots in a 5-foot group at that distance?

Is that really so much different from hunting with shotgun with 00 buckshot which throws a 60" pattern at 100 yards?  

Either way,  EVEN WITH PERFECT AIM,  you might get one or two hits on the animal, 
but you have no idea where on the critter's body the projectiles will land.  
It will be a matter of luck, not skill, whether your pellets bag the dear or just wound it.

Each projectile on its own will be weak. 70 grain hunk of lead moving at about 800 fps (that far away).

***************

P.S.  Yes, I'm sure that I have wounded some birds. If you hit some solidly, and miss some, the laws of probability demand that some birds are hit non-lethally.  But I DO pattern my guns with similar loads to what I'll be using in the field, and I try to estimate the distance to the bird before I shoot.


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## JustUs4All (Dec 26, 2014)

GunnSmokeer said:


> Yes, I'm sure that I have wounded some  birds. If you hit some solidly, and miss some, the laws of probability  demand that some birds are hit non-lethally.  But I DO pattern my guns  with similar loads to what I'll be using in the field, and I try to  estimate the distance to the bird before I shoot.



You realize that you just admitted that you were willing to accept a certain level of:


GunnSmokeer said:


> pop a few pellets into their guts and lungs and let them choke to death on their own blood a half hour later, or die of blood poisoning....
> 
> choot at 'em all _and let God decide if you eat... or not_ just doesn't sound like ethical hunting to me.
> 
> __________________



Imagine how much more humane it would be and how much more likely would be the quick death of those poor unfortunate birds if one had a partner on their trail already who could follow up on the errant shot and help bring the quarry to hand. 

Deer doggers incorporate that help as an integral part of their hunting method.


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## DogHunter4Life (Dec 26, 2014)

It's the distance.  100 yards, with a shotgun and buckshot.
-_i've seen it done and done it myself. so yes i think its possible and i will try it every time if it is a safe shot_

I think many guns and loads CANNOT be effective at that range.   It is UNREASONABLE to assume that throw a tight enough pattern.  You should test the gun and PROVE IT. See for yourself. 
-_i test my gun every year. i test it in the field of course and i've shot it enough with the load that i use for the past 6 years.  i know what my gun can and cant do_


Either way,  EVEN WITH PERFECT AIM,  you might get one or two hits on the animal, 
but you have no idea where on the critter's body the projectiles will land.  
It will be a matter of luck, not skill, whether your pellets bag the dear or just wound it.

-_it only takes one little tiny shot from that OO load.  i've see deer taken down with just one pellet in the neck out of 5 shots. _

_*shooting running deer with a shotgun is a skill not just luck.  9 times out of 10 when i think back on one i've just killed, i cant even remember where i aimed or if i even closed one of my eyes.  it just comes natural because i've been doing it for 25 years*_


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Jan 12, 2015)

*Spurious argument: Birdshot vs Buckshot*

JustUs4All:

Birdshot patterns are many times larger than the intended target and this works because there are hundreds of pellets in each shell.  This is reflected in the traditional 30 inch pattern with sufficient pattern density to take a bird any place within the effective pattern spread at a given distance with proper choke and load.

Buckshot patterns are directed at targets many times larger than any bird. Indeed, due to the very limited number of pellets, sucessfully using buckshot is more about directing a majority of those pellets into the vital zone.


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## Nannyman (Jan 16, 2015)

I have to say, this thread is both interesting and disgusting. A testimate proving ignorance is bliss. As long as I have been shooting a shotgun I have known that certain guns shoot certain loads better than others. As a kid 45 hrs ago I knew my shotgun liked 4s and 7 1/2s but not 6s. Buckshot loads are the same. The only way to know is shoot multiple loads and brands. 
To not take the time to pattern for the most lethal and efficient load is just sorry. 
Now, I know this will ruffle feathers. In all honesty most of my dog hunting friends are the same. 
I have said before. Sometimes in life you just need to do something right. 
It takes a little time and effort. A little money. It can be done. All someone must do is care enough to do something right for a change. 
Less than perfect shot opportunities happen often in dog hunting. A hunter and his rig that are not the best they can be only adds to the possibility of a wounded and unrecovered animal, which is very offensive to me. 

Charles Emerson Winchester once said. "I do one thing at a time. I do it very well. Then I move on."
A wise man.


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## Dustin (Jan 17, 2015)

Nannyman said:


> What is described above is not true patterning. All you have done is take a shell you think you like and see what the pattern looks like.
> True patterning includes multiple loads and or chokes if your gun uses chokes. Certain guns and or chokes like certain shells or size of buckshot.
> Longer barrels seem to produce more consistent patterns with a wider variety of shells. I started checking buckshot patterning when I went to a 21" barrel. I love how easy it is to get into and out of truck and in heavy cover. It just took more pattern work to get consistent patterns.
> Some guns don't like OOB. They may like OOO or #1. If you like a size check multiple brands to get what you want.
> ...







Nannyman said:


> I have to say, this thread is both interesting and disgusting. A testimate proving ignorance is bliss. As long as I have been shooting a shotgun I have known that certain guns shoot certain loads better than others. As a kid 45 hrs ago I knew my shotgun liked 4s and 7 1/2s but not 6s. Buckshot loads are the same. The only way to know is shoot multiple loads and brands.
> To not take the time to pattern for the most lethal and efficient load is just sorry.
> Now, I know this will ruffle feathers. In all honesty most of my dog hunting friends are the same.
> I have said before. Sometimes in life you just need to do something right.
> ...



You're missing what everyone is saying... those shells ARE the most consistent AFTER PATTERNING, and you STILL get that ONE shell out of every 5 or 10 or 100 or 1000 whatever that acts nothing like the other ones and throws a pattern twice as big as all the others, there is no such thing as a shotgun that throws a 21" pattern no bigger or smaller at 35 yards every single shot for thousands and thousands of shots.

If everyone made every effort they could to make sure there equipment was the best we would be out there with 2 ga shotguns slinging a 1/2lb of lead every shot instead of 20 ga and 12 ga


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Jan 17, 2015)

Dustin said:


> ...When I first got that Mossberg I patterned it, out of 25 shots of the Remington 3 1/2" 15 pellet 00 buck, 6 of those shots were "doughnuts", 4 had flyers everywhere, 14 put 5 pellets or more inside a 24" circle at 40 yds and 1 put all 15 pellets inside a 10" circle at 40 yds... that's why patterning isn't as important at some people say, what happens if one of those doughnuts happens when I shoot at a deer? but, what if the perfect pattern happens? That's the variables that can happen in a real world experience.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Dustin (Jan 18, 2015)

.60 caliber buckshot said:


> From the first quote above, it is painfully obvious that the buckshot load, the 12/10 gauge overbore barrel and the unmentioned choke tube that you tried, was a woefully inconsistent mismatched combination.  The Remington 3.5" 00B round, most likely, did not have a gas seal section capable of sufficient expansion to seal and stabilize the load in a 12 gauge with a 10 gauge overbore barrel.   There was no mention of your testing any other buckshot loads or choke constrictions in that shotgun.



Remington, Winchester, hevi shot buckshot, federal, estate and royal buck is what i tested in that gun, everything from 000 buck to #4 buck.

The stock chokes were obviously the first i tried then a few random turkey chokes like truglo, etc. from wherever i found them, then I tried pattern master, comp n choke, pure gold, wad wizard, etc. 

At the time Pattern master (I cant remember off hand what size the choke was, I could check for you if it matters) and Remington 3.5" 00 patterned the best, Winchester 3.5" #4 was second best and Remington 2 3/4" 00 was third, all with the pattern master choke. The comp n choke was the second best throwing the Remington 2 3/4 00 the best and better than the pattern master did with the same shell.

Since my last post I've had a choke tube made by a guy that makes card shoot chokes, I can't remember what size i had him bore the final size to but again I can check if you'd like (it's just tight enough that if you take 3 00 pellets on a table and stick the choke tube over them it'll pick em up but not deform them), the barrel is a 22" barrel, with a 6" extension tube that has straight rifling cut in it, and the 3" choke on the end for a total of 31" of barrel, that combo throws a 20-24" pattern with Remington 3.5" 00 at 50 yds most times.


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Jan 18, 2015)

Dustin, 

Well, it looks like you have invested a great deal of effort into getting that 835 to pattern well! 

I certainly respect that.





Dustin said:


> Remington, Winchester, hevi shot buckshot, federal, estate and royal buck is what i tested in that gun, everything from 000 buck to #4 buck.
> 
> The stock chokes were obviously the first i tried then a few random turkey chokes like truglo, etc. from wherever i found them, then I tried pattern master, comp n choke, pure gold, wad wizard, etc.
> 
> ...


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## Nannyman (Jan 20, 2015)

Man I wish I had known you would go that far. For the cost of all those shells and chokes you would be shooting TSS Buck. I shot a deer a few years ago at 80yds. 9 pass thru and a dozen pellets in the deer. Most in the far side skin. Hit the ground like dropped from a plane. 
You will never find a pellet just flat against bone. It crushes all bones.


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## grouper throat (Jan 21, 2015)

Why not just shoot a smaller-caliber rifle with a holographic sight like an AR15? You can shoot five shots fast and fairly accurate and not worry about having to shoot buckshot at all. Plus the down range penetration/accuracy is vastly superior.


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## ishootlittlebucks (Jan 21, 2015)

Dustin said:


> Remington, Winchester, hevi shot buckshot, federal, estate and royal buck is what i tested in that gun, everything from 000 buck to #4 buck.
> 
> The stock chokes were obviously the first i tried then a few random turkey chokes like truglo, etc. from wherever i found them, then I tried pattern master, comp n choke, pure gold, wad wizard, etc.
> 
> ...



I'm all for patterning a shotgun, but I would have found a different gun before I went that far. At least you have a gun that shoots good now.


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## Dustin (Jan 21, 2015)

ishootlittlebucks said:


> I'm all for patterning a shotgun, but I would have found a different gun before I went that far. At least you have a gun that shoots good now.



I just played with it for a couple years, I didn't stress over it or anything, matter of a fact i killed several deer with it when it was the same as i bought it.

I mainly just wanted to see what it would do.


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## Scrapy (Jan 21, 2015)

grouper throat said:


> Why not just shoot a smaller-caliber rifle with a holographic sight like an AR15? You can shoot five shots fast and fairly accurate and not worry about having to shoot buckshot at all. Plus the down range penetration/accuracy is vastly superior.



I think they are talking about having standers and deer driving with dogs. I doubt any stander nor driver would hunt if somebody was using an AR15.


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## Riverrat84 (Jan 21, 2015)

What's so funny to me is on a regular basis there's a post on the deer hunting page talking about how sick they are about the deer they bloodied up and lost with their rifle or bow especially. I don't recall them posts being that regular on here. It's pretty simple though if you don't like dog hunters that shoot buck shot then don't get on the dog hunting forum.


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## Scrapy (Jan 21, 2015)

Back before Deer dog hunting got basically took away from us by a small # of Florida hunters with a 500 acre lease, Buckshot was used for effect at close range, You couldn't see far and had to shoot quick. The dogs would come back out if it was dead or keep on going if it was missed or barely hit. No real need for blood tracking.

I know and have met a good many Florida hunters. They are fine enough folks it seem to me. The problem to me seems to be the local  Agents that set up the deer leases. That have some sway but not as much as they think they have , and have some expendable money to buy a "time certain" "option " on timber company land. The goal then becomes finding enough Florida Hunters with money to "BUY RIGHTS" for a hole dangum year. Correct me if I am wrong but I dare you.

Then these "local" "Agents" that are not regulated for sub- leaseing land get cranked up on magazine principals about deer "bedding and non-disturbance" . Ain't that a joke? Even the older Florida hunters know that is a joke.

I my humble depinion, there is no tract in GA nor SC big enough to be called "wilderness"  .  if YOU GET "TURNED AROUND" all you got to do is keep heading in the same direction without walking in circles , for a couple of hours.  You will hit a fire line or a trail road or a drain .  If you got to bog then bog it. If you got to swim then swim it. Or just stay put. Silence; and expecting not to hear a yard dog bark or a van truck horn toot anywhere in these two States is axing a lot for a temporary lease.


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## Scrapy (Jan 24, 2015)

I kind of like the florida yankee hunters I have met that don't believe too much of the yard dog barking crowd in magaznes    A few of them even seem more inclined to just be here and when they hear a dog bark don't just go crazy.. Much better attuned to us.  Old Florida way of doing things .Maybe like the Coast OF GA. 

I understand that florida folks got over run with folks that had money to burn. Thank goodness most of this land around here is privately/ farmed and owned. Can and will or can or will NOT lease a piece of it . 

How little?  How little of a piece of POW line ROW you willing to rent?  ROW;  Right of Way. CONTROL ? Is that what you are about? Rent fellers?  For ya'll that do not understand ROW .


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## Nannyman (Jan 26, 2015)

Scrapy said:


> I think they are talking about having standers and deer driving with dogs. I doubt any stander nor driver would hunt if somebody was using an AR15.



I use an AR15 as my deer rifle. 6.&mm. It is very accurate and is semiauto. No one I have met have any issue with it being an "AR". 
Fortunately remarks such as yours have not created an "anti" response from hunters.


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## Scrapy (Jan 26, 2015)

Nannyman said:


> I use an AR15 as my deer rifle. 6.&mm. It is very accurate and is semiauto. No one I have met have any issue with it being an "AR".
> Fortunately remarks such as yours have not created an "anti" response from hunters.



You have people willing to stand 100 yards from you on  flat ground with brush and let you shoot at a moving deer with dogs after it with a rifle?  I'm not anti. Just have better sense. This is about buckshot which has implications for the type of hunting being done.


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## dieselengine9 (Jan 26, 2015)

Had a club member tell another member once "I knew I wasn't going to hit you when I shot because I could see you off to the side in my scope when I shot."  Rifles are safe in some instances but surrounding a block isn't one of them.


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## Nannyman (Jan 28, 2015)

You guys must have very little clue. Most standees here use rifles and semi auto at that. Now we don't sit stands 100yds apart very often. Mostly standing on my dog box. Elevated stand. Most recent hunter shot while dog hunting was with a shotgun with buckshot. Quite a few years ago.


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## Scrapy (Jan 29, 2015)

Ok I believe I do not have a clue. I also believe I won't be on a dog drive where they are using rifles. You do what you want.


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## Nannyman (Jan 29, 2015)

Scrapy said:


> Ok I believe I do not have a clue. I also believe I won't be on a dog drive where they are using rifles. You do what you want.



Anyone who is interested may ride with me and see what it's all about. 
I am glad you are not interested.


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Jan 30, 2015)

*A reality to think about...*

...before relying on a 100 yard "Golden BB" hit:

Most of todays 00B pellets run close to .323" in diameter and 50 grains by weight. 
When fired from a 2.75" magnum 12 pellet load these start at some 1250 fps.

Entering these figures into a round ball ballistic program reveals that by the time such a 00B pellet reaches 100 yards it is moving just under 720 fps and retains less than 60 fpe.  That is approximately equal to the power of a .31 cap and ball revolver at the muzzle or a .32 caliber muzzleloading round ball squirrel rifle at 150 yards.  Or a .25ACP 50 grain bullet at the muzzle!



On the other hand:

When half of the pellets from a 12 pellet 00B load strike a deer in the vitals at 40 yards - that is another story altogether!


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## LT6767 (Mar 4, 2015)

I used an OLD Iver Johnson single shot 20ga with a full choke for deer. With Remington #3 buckshot it'll put 8-10 of the 20 pellets in a 15in spot at 35yds. All I have to do is lay the bead on top of were I want pattern to go and I pull the trigger. Interestingly enough, Federal and Winchester buckshot won't pattern at all. It doughnut rings both loads. So far I've dropped two bucks dead in their tracks with the old 20ga; one at 17yds and another at 35yds. 35yds is also my limit. If I have a spot in the jungle where I hunt that'll take a longer shot, I'll take the 30-30 in with me.


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## Stetson (Jun 14, 2015)

Going from memory.......but I believe Georgia law states if there's more than 4 hunters involved in a dog hunt, rifles are not allowed. 

In any event, it's mostly a buckshot kinda experience here. With stand lines stood tight, and shooters on the ground, rifles are too dangerous. If legal, in industrial forest settings and big woods roads with people spread out.......I can see where rifles could be used safely and affectively.  But just not doable in a dense pine forest with narrow, crooked woods roads.


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Jul 21, 2015)

*Its about time to start...*

...wiping out the shooting eye and get ready for the upcoming deer season.  You know, the usual things like repairing the dog box, checking out the electronic dog tracking collars, switching out street wheels and tires for hunting season mud grips, shooting several rounds of skeet and patterning buckshot loads!

Manufacturers often make running changes in buckshot loads that are often not reflected in their advertising and these changes can have a positive or negative effect on patterns from your shotgun and choke combination. The only way to know is by pattern testing!


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## groundhawg (Jul 21, 2015)

Stetson said:


> Going from memory.......but I believe Georgia law states if there's more than 4 hunters involved in a dog hunt, rifles are not allowed.
> 
> In any event, it's mostly a buckshot kinda experience here. With stand lines stood tight, and shooters on the ground, rifles are too dangerous. If legal, in industrial forest settings and big woods roads with people spread out.......I can see where rifles could be used safely and affectively.  But just not doable in a dense pine forest with narrow, crooked woods roads.



What?  Got to see that reg.
Thanks.


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## GunnSmokeer (Aug 7, 2015)

for what it's worth, I shot a skinny little plastic portable radio with a 3" magnum shell, 20 gauge, #2 buckshot the other day.
From about 25 feet.

My pattern was about 8" wide, which was much wider than I expected at only about 8 yards, since I was used a modified-choke barrel.

And NONE of those .27 caliber pellets fully penetrated the radio and exited.  They messed it up something awful, but not a single soft lead pellet could make it through two layers of plastic and one printed circuit board and some wires and diodes and capacitors.  

This was a small AM/ FM only radio, about 6" tall, 7" wide, and only 2" thick.

I was not impressed.  For self-defense, penetration like that seems marginal.  For hunting big game, it seems inadequate.  It would be like shooting a deer (or hog) 10 times with a .22 revolver loaded with .22 shorts.


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## Nannyman (Aug 9, 2015)

I have no true wish to defend lead buckshot, but you have to realize a radio gives no resistance to the shot. No penetration just the radio being blasted away from the impact. 
For those who use lead it is a matter of pattern and reasonable range. 
It is also the same with Tungsten, but range and pattern are greater with Tungsten.


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## mark-7mag (Aug 20, 2015)

I miss Scrapy


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## grouper throat (Aug 24, 2015)

mark-7mag said:


> I miss Scrapy



He was a hoot... when you could comprehend what he was sayin'


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## Davem (Oct 7, 2015)

Well.....sounds like NONE of you guys patterned your buckshot. I did a very minor amount a couple of years back but now I'm going to try about 6 different ammo (3", 2 3/4" and Rem, Win, Fed in 3 different chokes.  As I collect everything I realize I never did this cause it is going to be a lot of work.  
   Sometimes we have to do a lot just to establish what we suspected is actually true- I might not learn anything.
   I've read about a few rare shotguns that put a whole load into a hand sized pattern at 25 or 30 yards.  My tests were much worse- maybe 4 pellets into a paper plate at 25 yards.
   Some folks aim at the lower neck/shoulder and others at the lungs.
   By sharing experiences I think we could learn a lot.
   My gut feeling is 15-25 yards is best.  30-35 yards is getting sort of far, if the cover is open enough for 50 yard shots use a rifle or slugs.
   It would be most helpful for both good and bad experience to be given.  That would help establish limits on buckshot use.
   Where I live I'd say 80% of the guys with deer dogs use shotguns and the rest some sort of rifle. Semi-autos in .243, maybe lever actions, etc.


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## mikelowery9 (Jan 28, 2016)

After revisiting this thread I decided to see what the ole benelli aka Strictly Business was doing as far as pattern, out of shear curiosity. Set up a sheet of cut plywood roughly 4x4 or 4x5 @ 60 yards. Using my dog hunting setup I poured 11 out of 12 pellets into what would have been a dead deer. Backed off to 80 yards and poured 9 out of 12 pellets into what would have been another dead deer. No all the pellets weren't in the size of a pie plate and that still wont stop me from shooting at deer at those distances. I shot 5 times this year behind dogs and there were 5 deer laying dead in there tracks. 2 of the 5 were in the 60 yard range, the other 3 were closer. We have 3 or 4 fellas in our club that if they pull the trigger you can go ahead and ease that way and start loading dogs because the race is over. Yall boys keep trying to figure out a pattern that pleases you and we will keep loading em up on the tailgate. My recommendation to yall is pick you up a buck kicker choke,some Winchester double X high velocity 00, stop worrying about those patterns and get to hunting.


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Feb 2, 2016)

Mike your advice contains many incongruities.

Saying that patterning is a waste of time and then recommending an ammo brand and a $75 choke tube simply does not add up. 

Particularly in view of the choke tube manufacturer's patterning tips and recommendation to:

"Know the capabilities of your gun before going afield"

http://www.kicks-ind.com/category/buckkicker.html






mikelowery9 said:


> ...My personal opinion is patterning a shotgun is a waste of time...





mikelowery9 said:


> ...My recommendation to yall is pick you up a buck kicker choke,some Winchester double X high velocity 00, stop worrying about those patterns and get to hunting....


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## mikelowery9 (Feb 3, 2016)

.60 caliber buckshot said:


> Mike your advice contains many incongruities.
> 
> Saying that patterning is a waste of time and then recommending an ammo brand and a $75 choke tube simply does not add up.
> 
> ...




Its your opinion and your entitled to it. You can pattern yours until your blue in the shoulder, doesn't bother me a bit.  Hate to tell you bud but the ammo brand was recommended because it has been proven to stop deer better than any other round we have run through our guns, not because "it improves pattern". Penetration is the word you should research for this. The choke was recommended for extended range not because of a statement about knowing your guns capabilities before going afield. I made the purchase because the people that were using it were consistently stacking deer up on the tailgates. I say all that to say this, no matter if you pattern your gun or not if you consistently kill deer with one shot then your doing it right. My case I don't pattern mine and I get the job done. So to me patterning my gun is a WASTE OF TIME. To those of you that have to pattern yours to get it done then by all means do what you have to do.


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Nov 2, 2017)

Another reason for pre-season pattern testing:

Shotshell manufacturers often make running changes in their buckshot lines.  Such changes are seldom announced, so regardless of your past experiences, not checking the patterns with a new lot of buckshot ammunition may lead to lost or wounded game.


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## Davem (Nov 3, 2017)

A friend of mine recently shot a deer with a rifle, the proven deer round blew away half the lungs and yet that deer still ran over 100 yards.  Now when such events occur everyone marvels at what a deer can do, dead on its feet but it still runs.
   If you shot and hit the same deer a couple of times with buckshot and it did the same damage and the deer ran the same distance, "buckshot is to blame- no good".  So, off hand, buckshot gets a bad rap.
   That said, it seems to me buckshot is a strange critter.  There have been reports of a human killed at 100 yards by a single pellet and yet according to ballistics, that pellet should have had virtually no energy.  The old time gun writer Elmer Keith claimed round balls acted differently and were more destructive than a bullet and maybe that explains some of this.
   I think a lot of dog hunters who never pattern their shotguns line up along a dirt road, looking into the woods and the dogs push a deer by at 20-30 yards and the hunter takes 2 or 3 shots and downs the deer and that's that.  Factory loads seem to be okay. AND for that kind of hunting they are okay.
   I think the patterning comes into play by trying to extend the range, if you start shooting at 40-60 yards then the pattern becomes very important.  Obviously a single pellet hitting the brain, etc will kill but as a general rule, the more pellets that hit- the better.
   Birdshot acts like water out of a garden hose, constrict the nozzle and the water stream tightens.  Buckshot is so large that different rules apply.  The buckshot is stacked and if the choke is too small or too large the stacks upset and the pattern goes to blazes.  I don't think you can simply buy a tight choke and assume all is well.  Getting back to Elmer Keith, he did some testing of the old trench guns (win model 97) that really had no chokes but all the pellets from one particular gun hit in a hand sized group at 40 yards.  You just never know- the only way is to pattern- if you start on the long distance stuff.
   I agree, when companies start changing everything- drives me crazy, especially if you went through a lot of work testing ammo- you can spend a small fortune.
   I've done a lot of questioning on this issue.  From everyone I've spoken to, if seems like 3 or more pellets in the lung area will usually do the job and that most ranges are 35 yards or less.  I've therefore tested my loads along those lines,  a pellet spread that ought to put at least 3 pellets in a rather small area.  Actually, I try to get 5 hits into a paper plate.  
   I sure would like to hear from others with their experience on how many hits usually take a deer and at what range, etc.
   All information is helpful- such as if plated shot really makes a difference in killing abilty, hevi-shot, etc.


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## GunnSmokeer (Nov 3, 2017)

Was Elmer Keith the fellow who told a story about somebody defending their home with a 12-gauge shotgun, loaded with buckshot, when they were menaced or attacked by outlaws on horseback in their front yard?  The story, as I recall it, ended with the home defender firing THROUGH the wooden door and killing both the outlaw AND his horse!


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## JustUs4All (Nov 4, 2017)

GunnSmokeer said:


> for what it's worth, I shot a skinny little plastic portable radio with a 3" magnum shell, 20 gauge, #2 buckshot the other day.
> From about 25 feet.
> 
> My pattern was about 8" wide, which was much wider than I expected at only about 8 yards, since I was used a modified-choke barrel.
> ...



The radio did not have enough weight.  Screw it down to a 2ft long 2x10 and shoot it again.  I believe that you will get all the penetration you could ask for.


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## Davem (Nov 4, 2017)

I didn't read about that, I think I recall reading he shot a coyote out of his house with buckshot. He didn't have a high opinion of buckshot but he was in an open area with long range shooting the rule.


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## ishootlittlebucks (Nov 6, 2017)

Davem said:


> A friend of mine recently shot a deer with a rifle, the proven deer round blew away half the lungs and yet that deer still ran over 100 yards.  Now when such events occur everyone marvels at what a deer can do, dead on its feet but it still runs.
> If you shot and hit the same deer a couple of times with buckshot and it did the same damage and the deer ran the same distance, "buckshot is to blame- no good".  So, off hand, buckshot gets a bad rap.
> That said, it seems to me buckshot is a strange critter.  There have been reports of a human killed at 100 yards by a single pellet and yet according to ballistics, that pellet should have had virtually no energy.  The old time gun writer Elmer Keith claimed round balls acted differently and were more destructive than a bullet and maybe that explains some of this.
> I think a lot of dog hunters who never pattern their shotguns line up along a dirt road, looking into the woods and the dogs push a deer by at 20-30 yards and the hunter takes 2 or 3 shots and downs the deer and that's that.  Factory loads seem to be okay. AND for that kind of hunting they are okay.
> ...



I would try to get as many as I could in that paper plate. IMO you want room for error. I spent a lot of time and $ patterning my shotgun. It will put most, if not all, of the 18 00 pellets in that plate at 40 yards. I've shot deer that the pattern on there side looked just like the pattern on the paper. I've also shot deer at 40 yards or so that were only hit with just a few pellets. I have no idea how that happens with a good patterning shotgun, but it does. I want as many in that plate as I can get.


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## Hillbilly stalker (Nov 6, 2017)

If yall really want the best bang for your buck, go over to "Old Gobbler " turkey hunting forum. Read the posts on how they super polish their barrels, even new ones, and greatly increasing their patterns and performance. Those boys are dead serious about patterns and are improving whatever they are shooting by something like 27%. Its a DIY job also.


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## ishootlittlebucks (Nov 7, 2017)

I have thought about trying that. My shotgun has a chrome lined barrel. I'm not sure it would do me any good though.


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## Hillbilly stalker (Nov 7, 2017)

ishootlittlebucks said:


> I have thought about trying that. My shotgun has a chrome lined barrel. I'm not sure it would do me any good though.



It would be worth your read I believe.  They do those barrels also with great results. Can't hurt any.


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## Davem (Nov 7, 2017)

If you don't have chrome lined barrels I think you can re-cut the forcing cone and that improves patterns in some instances.
   I agree with the idea more pellets are better.  In a dog hunting situation the deer is often moving and if it sees you, then it is running and you have to do some fast shooting.  I don't know of any set up or facility where you can safely practice shooting a rifle at a moving target so that's why I think the shotgun has a role to play.  If you are a pretty good wing shooter then the shotgun is comfortable.  Still, any particular round might just throw an odd pattern so taking multiple shots until the deer is down seems like the go to strategy.
   I've spoken to a lot of fellow hunters and as I said most feel 3 pellets through the lungs will work, 5 is better.   With that in mind I try to find a load that puts 5 pellets in a hand sized (pie plate) area.  If that occurs at 35 yards- then that is my "practical" range. 
Meaning some wiggle room will likely occur in the field.


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## .60 caliber buckshot (Nov 7, 2017)

*Generic Buckshot???*

Buckshot loads cannot be treated like a generic commodity. Saying my gun likes 00B or open chokes are best for buckshot simply lumps all brands/types/innovative loads together and that simply is no longer a valid approach - if it ever was.

And as already mentioned, factory buckshot loads often have running production changes that may or may not be reflected in the packaging or advertising. These changes may result in pattern changes - for better or worse!

Conventional buckshot ammo falls into several distinct categories:

- Bare pellet loads.  
- Bare pellets with buffer.
- Shot cup and buffer.
- Shot cup with buffer and 2x2 stack or offset spiral stack
- Flite Control type - with or without buffer


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## 3chunter (Jun 17, 2018)

All 15 pellets in a 20” circle at 40 yards is what I look for.


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