# Everyone deserves to burn forever



## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

How does one go about convincing themself this is true? Is there any morality in such an idea?


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## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Is there any morality in such an idea?


Depends on where one gets their morality.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2022)

I don't believe that one burns forever. If he isn't called to believe, then he will die when he dies. Just because a fire is eternal, doesn't mean the punishment is.


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## NCHillbilly (Apr 1, 2022)




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## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't believe that one burns forever. If he isn't called to believe, then he will die when he dies. Just because a fire is eternal, doesn't mean the punishment is.



That would be an improvement of a sort.


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## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

I wonder if people who believe this have actually ever seen someone burn to death? If they could watch that and say "yep, every human being deserves that only it shouldn't be over so quick".


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't believe that one burns forever. If he isn't called to believe, then he will die when he dies. Just because a fire is eternal, doesn't mean the punishment is.



That sounds logical and fair, but I'm thinking about this in the "long term":
it wouldn't make sense to have the fire burning eternally once all the sinners are punished. In other words, let's say all the sinners/unsaved get thrown into the fire for X amount of time (whether burned up immediately or it takes 1,000 years) once the world as we know it ends. Sooner or later all the sinners will be burned up and since the physical world as we know it has ended, no more people are being born, so there is a finite amount of sinners to throw into the fire. My point here being no sense having the fire burning when there is nobody left to throw into it.


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## OwlRNothing (Apr 1, 2022)

I've never seen a non-believer come at Christianity with an argument based in what the Bible actually says. It's always some sort of contorted, twisted argument designed to turn the "question" into a pre-emptive attack.  When the Bible is quoted incorrectly on purpose, it's not hard to be amazed at how horrible this or that seems. A lack of understanding or a lack of the desire to face the truth is always at the heart of these disguised "strawman" type of attacks. " I just asked a simple question" is normally the reply of one who has no desire to seek out the truth, but every desire to continue to run from it. That may not be you, but in my 40 years of Christian apologetics, it's been incredibly, incredibly rare to see a stealth attack based on a lie not be the work of someone who is, instead of seeking truth, trying to convince themselves that their running from God is justified. Just my .02. ( you asked.)


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## OwlRNothing (Apr 1, 2022)

You're misunderstanding of ****, whether on purpose or not, is keeping you from understanding. The best place to seek the answers you claim to seek is not here. It's the Bible. Search there. Trying to figure out God's Word the way you're doing it is like a NASA engineer looking for the solution to a problem on a hamburger wrapper. 
I don't generally argue though, b/c if you want to know the truth you'll find it. Everyone does - sooner or later.


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## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

OwlRNothing said:


> I've never seen a non-believer come at Christianity with an argument based in what the Bible actually says.


This is really interesting to me. I know I have posted exact verses from the Bible and asked questions. I get some folks saying, "yep, that is what it means" and others saying "you aint reading it right". Just like folks read the same Bible and come to the conclusion there is a he!! while others say No. Are you saying you have been a reader of this forum for years and never seen an argument based on what the Bible actually says?


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## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

From biblestudytools.com

*KJV*
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
*ESV*
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
*NLT*
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”
*What does Matthew 25:46 mean?*
*John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment*
Their excuses will not be regarded, their pleas will be of no avail, their pretensions to interest in Christ, and love to him, will be set aside; the sentence will remain irrevocable, and there will be no appeal from it, for there is no higher tribunal to bring the cause before; judgment having passed, the execution of it immediately follows: these goats, or formal professors, shall be obliged, whether they will or not, to depart from the presence of Christ; the angels will be ordered to take and cast them into everlasting burnings; they will be driven by them into ****, the place appointed for them; where they shall endure (yxun vnwe) "everlasting punishment",


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## WaltL1 (Apr 1, 2022)

OwlRNothing said:


> You're misunderstanding of ****, whether on purpose or not, is keeping you from understanding. The best place to seek the answers you claim to seek is not here. It's the Bible. Search there. Trying to figure out God's Word the way you're doing it is like a NASA engineer looking for the solution to a problem on a hamburger wrapper.
> I don't generally argue though, b/c if you want to know the truth you'll find it. Everyone does - sooner or later.


There is a reason there are so many Christian denominations and varying opinions among Christians. The answers may be in the Bible but every Christian determines for themselves what those answers are.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2022)

Before we define eternal punishment or eternal death, we must first define what eternal life means.
To me the opposite of eternal life means just that. Which would also show that eternal death is just that as well. In other words eternal life means you live forever and eternal death means you die when you die.
Maybe the gray area is eternal punishment. Wouldn't eternal death be eternal punishment?

How can one gain eternal life if the opposite isn't everlasting death?


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

OwlRNothing said:


> You're misunderstanding of ****, whether on purpose or not, is keeping you from understanding. The best place to seek the answers you claim to seek is not here. It's the Bible. Search there. Trying to figure out God's Word the way you're doing it is like a NASA engineer looking for the solution to a problem on a hamburger wrapper.
> I don't generally argue though, b/c if you want to know the truth you'll find it. Everyone does - sooner or later.



My misunderstanding is keeping me from understanding? 
Anyway if all the answers are in the bible (and if these answers are obvious, clear and simple) then why are there so many different types of interpretations among the many different denominations that abound in Christianity? There have always been - and there will always be - discussions & arguments over what is literal, what is symbolic, 
what is allegory, etc.etc. "I think what Jesus was saying here" will be ten different things according to ten different biblical experts. That's all I'm saying.


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## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Before we define eternal punishment or eternal death, we must first define what eternal life means.
> To me the opposite of eternal life means just that. Which would also show that eternal death is just that as well. In other words eternal life means you live forever and eternal death means you die when you die.
> Maybe the gray area is eternal punishment. Wouldn't eternal death be eternal punishment?
> 
> How can one gain eternal life if the opposite isn't everlasting death?




"His name is Robert Paulson."

(Fight Club reference)


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## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Before we define eternal punishment or eternal death, we must first define what eternal life means.
> To me the opposite of eternal life means just that. Which would also show that eternal death is just that as well. In other words eternal life means you live forever and eternal death means you die when you die.
> Maybe the gray area is eternal punishment. Wouldn't eternal death be eternal punishment?
> 
> How can one gain eternal life if the opposite isn't everlasting death?



I'm inclined to think eternal life would be worse than death. If I had my choice I would live longer than a normal human life span but at some point I would be done and ready for it to end. Life beyond that point would be a curse.


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## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> From biblestudytools.com
> 
> *KJV*
> And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
> ...



Revelation chapter 20 says those not found in the book of life get cast into the lake of fire.

Who knew all those years I've heard christians say only through Jesus can you be saved from the fires of hades that they had it wrong all along?


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## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Revelation chapter 20 says those not found in the book of life get cast into the lake of fire.
> 
> Who knew all those years I've heard christians say only through Jesus can you be saved from the fires of hades that they had it wrong all along?



This pretty much crushes the Freewill argument; that YOU are responsible for the location of your eternal soul.


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## ambush80 (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I'm inclined to think eternal life would be worse than death. If I had my choice I would live longer than a normal human life span but at some point I would be done and ready for it to end. Life beyond that point would be a curse.



If not for the degradation of mind and body, I wouldn't mind living forever.  Solve that problem and I'll volunteer, so long as there's an off ramp option.  Wouldn't that suck?  You take the off ramp and then have to deal with REAL eternity......

Blech.


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## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> If not for the degradation of mind and body, I wouldn't mind living forever.  Solve that problem and I'll volunteer, so long as there's an off ramp option.  Wouldn't that suck?  You take the off ramp and then have to deal with REAL eternity......
> 
> Blech.



No off ramp. That's what eternal means. Hades is also eternal life when you think about it. It's just an unpleasant one. Neither heaven or hades are what I would wish for if reality catered to our wishes. People who wish for eternal life haven't thought it through. It's like kids that get a scoop of ice cream and instead of being satisfied with it they keep one upping each other. One says "I could eat a whole truck load of ice cream!". The next says "I could eat a thousand truck loads of ice cream!". The next one says "Yeah well I could eat 50 million kajillion truck loads of ice cream!". Reality is if you granted their wish and said here you go but you have to finish all of it they would be tapping out after a few gallons at most.


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## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> How does one go about convincing themself this is true? Is there any morality in such an idea?


You’re more moral than God?  What an ego.


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## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You’re more moral than God?  What an ego.



If we're talking about the god of the bible it's a pretty low bar to be honest.


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## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> If we're talking about the god of the bible it's a pretty low bar to be honest.


Your arrogance is something to behold.


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## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Your arrogance is something to behold.



I mean I'm no pillar of morality but I can honestly say I didn't set the stage to bring death into the world. I haven't drowned every living thing on the planet except what could fit on a boat. I haven't committed genocide. I haven't made a fiery pit and thrown anyone in it. I haven't engaged in human sacrifice. That's more than we can say for the god of the bible. 

FWIW you're more moral than El too.


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## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I mean I'm no pillar of morality but I can honestly say I didn't set the stage to bring death into the world. I haven't drowned every living thing on the planet except what could fit on a boat. I haven't committed genocide. I haven't made a fiery pit and thrown anyone in it. I haven't engaged in human sacrifice. That's more than we can say for the god of the bible.
> 
> FWIW you're more moral than El too.


Have you ever considered the possibility that you lack the understanding to discern what is and what is not on the level of God?  Could be that you are like a toddler making judgements about the actions of an adult.


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## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Have you ever considered the possibility that you lack the understanding to discern what is and what is not on the level of God?  Could be that you are like a toddler making judgements about the actions of an adult.



Sounds like a poor excuse for indefensible behavior.


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## Danuwoa (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Sounds like a poor excuse for indefensible behavior.


Who does God have to defend his behavior to?


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## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Who does God have to defend his behavior to?



Not who but what. We could start with his own proclaimed standards for right and wrong. He fails to meet them, repeatedly. But I know where you're going and it basically boils down to might makes right. Which means if the devil was the most powerful deity everything he did would be right no matter what it was and I guess you'd be worshiping him if that were the case. Perhaps you can convince yourself that's true? That as long as one has the power to do something and no one can stop them that makes it right?

You're worshiping a deity who ordered the founding father of your religion to commit filicide to test his obedience and then proceeded to "redeem" his own flawed creation by committing filicide himself in the form of a human sacrifice.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> There is a reason there are so many Christian denominations and varying opinions among Christians. The answers may be in the Bible but every Christian determines for themselves what those answers are.



But owlr nothing said that I would find answers in the bible! But it would seem that it would end up with me having even more questions since "the answers" cause confusion even among the experts. And what if "my answers" that I found are determined to be wrong?


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> This pretty much crushes the Freewill argument; that YOU are responsible for the location of your eternal soul.



Jesus puts your name in the Book of Life apparently.


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## NCHillbilly (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Not who but what. We could start with his own proclaimed standards for right and wrong. He fails to meet them, repeatedly. But I know where you're going and it basically boils down to might makes right. Which means if the devil was the most powerful deity everything he did would be right no matter what it was and I guess you'd be worshiping him if that were the case. Perhaps you can convince yourself that's true? That as long as one has the power to do something and no one can stop them that makes it right?
> 
> You're worshiping a deity who ordered the founding father of your religion to commit filicide to test his obedience and then proceeded to "redeem" his own flawed creation by committing filicide himself in the form of a human sacrifice.


The ritualized  cannibalism ceremony has always seemed a bit creepy to me, too.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Not who but what. We could start with his own proclaimed standards for right and wrong. He fails to meet them, repeatedly. But I know where you're going and it basically boils down to might makes right. Which means if the devil was the most powerful deity everything he did would be right no matter what it was and I guess you'd be worshiping him if that were the case. Perhaps you can convince yourself that's true? That as long as one has the power to do something and no one can stop them that makes it right?
> 
> You're worshiping a deity who ordered the founding father of your religion to commit filicide to test his obedience and then proceeded to "redeem" his own flawed creation by committing filicide himself in the form of a human sacrifice.



Yes, might makes right. Because God has no higher authority to report to, everything he does is "good and right" if he says it is. If you act the same way as he does it's wrong because he says it's wrong. His house, his rules! It's his world, we just live in it! You don't have to "like" him, you just have to respect & fear him, and tell yourself and others that you love him to save yourself and others from the hot place. 

When you see him coming up the street you quickly cross to the other side, and try to avoid eye contact. If he does see you, act pleasantly surprised to see him, and start 
kissing up to him to hopefully save yourself from reaping his whirlwind of anger. 

It's very conflicting to equate a self proclaimed "angry, jealous, vengeful" god with love and peace, but those are the breaks!


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You’re more moral than God?  What an ego.



God may not seem like he's moral because we humans can't understand his morality. 
Here's how I've had it explained to me by more than one man of the cloth:

God hates sin so much that sending sinners*** to the hot place is a necessity, because he can't have sin around him for all eternity. 

Also the hot place will be terrible because God can't be there to save you from the torture. His hands are tied at that point. That said he still loves you, but he still can't help you.

***sin of course is anything that goes against god. The exception of course is if god specifically tells you to do something that would normally be a sin, but is not a sin at the time because god knows "the bigger picture" and has it all figured out, in which case you just "roll with it".


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## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> God may not seem like he's moral because we humans can't understand his morality.
> Here's how I've had it explained to me by more than one man of the cloth:
> 
> God hates sin so much that sending sinners*** to the hot place is a necessity, because he can't have sin around him for all eternity.
> ...



Omnipresent but can’t have you in his presence.


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## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> How does one go about convincing themself this is true? Is there any morality in such an idea?


Ask Jim Jones. He too, misunderstood the Bible and had ridiculous ideas and convinced a few to drink the kool aide.


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## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Ask Jim Jones. He too, misunderstood the Bible and had ridiculous ideas and convinced a few to drink the kool aide.


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## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> God may not seem like he's moral because we humans can't understand his morality.
> Here's how I've had it explained to me by more than one man of the cloth:
> 
> God hates sin so much that sending sinners*** to the hot place is a necessity, because he can't have sin around him for all eternity.
> ...



Based on your post from start to finish, it seems like cheap liquor was involved between you and the man of cloth. 

It starts out good, gets a little sideways and by the end of that post one, or both of y’all were drunk lol ?


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## 1gr8buildit (Apr 1, 2022)

So I would like to explain the context of the bible. Whether you believe it or not, the context is this.  Modern day Christianity is ignorant of this context. In the beginning, Adam was created immortal, to live forever. God punished man for his sins taking away his immortality, making him mortal. Through the redemption of Jesus, another topic, Jesus, the second Adam, reclaimed what was lost for those of the "family" , [another topic]. The OT has zero context regarding he11 or anything like it. It only looks to a renewal of what was lost. As far as the NT he11. It's not in there in the sense that one thinks. The greek word used for he11, I can't recall what it is, it is a word that is unfamiliar to us, but would have been known in that day. We have to assume it was written to their understanding.  The Israelites had what we might see as a dump. They brought all their trash, dung, etc to this one area outside the encampment. People coming and going, day after day. It being on fire,, that fire never going out.... because it was fueled constantly. This is where the forever mindset came from. They did not have to lite a fire. Just throw it in.  It was for destruction, disposal. The greek word has zero implication of unbelievers suffering in an eternal fire. It does imply the end, or destruction, with no reversal. Now, to clarify something.... there is a -major problem- for those whom were redemed to immorality.  Those whom are deceived by the antichrist. [another topic], Those whom have fallen for the identity thief of the imposter Christ. It would have been better if they had not been born says the bible. These, are the ones whom experience eternal punishment. Not unbelievers. I have left out major topics here but this is the context. This you will not find anywhere, regardless of how much you might google. Especially not from church


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## buckpasser (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I'm inclined to think eternal life would be worse than death. If I had my choice I would live longer than a normal human life span but at some point I would be done and ready for it to end. Life beyond that point would be a curse.



What if the invention of time is no more in the afterlife?  It would be hard to imagine “forever” without a sense of time. Might also explain the “eternal” in “eternal punishment”. Eternal in that it might be locked in a sealed container or what time was, but is then complete. Just a thought.


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## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> So I would like to explain the context of the bible. Whether you believe it or not, modern day Christianity is ignorant of context. In the beginning, Adam was created immortal, to live forever. God punished man for his sins taking away his immortality, making him mortal. Through the redemption of Jesus, another topic, Jesus, the second Adam, reclaimed what was lost for those of the "family" , another topic. The OT has zero context regarding he11 or anything like it. It only looks to a renewal of what was lost. As far as the NT he11. It's not in there in the sense that one thinks. The greek word used for he11, I can't recall what it is, it is a word that is unfamiliar to us, but would have been known in that day. The Israelites had what we might see as a dump. They brought all their trash, dung, etc to this one area outside the encampment. People coming and going, day after day. It being on fire,, that fire never going out.... because it was fueled constantly. This is where the forever mindset came from. It was for destruction, disposal. The greek word has zero implication of unbelievers suffering in an eternal fire. It does imply the end, or destruction, with no reversal. Now, to clarify something.... there is a major problem for those whom were redemed to immorality, whom are deceived by the antichrist. [another topic], Those whom have fallen for the identity thief of the imposter Christ. It would have been better if they had not been born says the bible. These, are the ones whom experience eternal punishment. Not unbelievers. I have left out major topics here but this is the context. This you will not find anywhere, regardless of how much you might google. Especially not from church



Good stuff. Can’t recall that Greek word either but I know I’ve heard it explained like you just did.


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## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> What if the invention of time is no more in the afterlife?  It would be hard to imagine “forever” without a sense of time. Might also explain the “eternal” in “eternal punishment”. Eternal in that it might be locked in a sealed container or what time was, but is then complete. Just a thought.



Yeah that doesn’t work. Whether you call it time or not what we refer to as time is a framework in which events can take place. By definition there are no events outside of some context of time.


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## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> So I would like to explain the context of the bible. Whether you believe it or not, modern day Christianity is ignorant of context. In the beginning, Adam was created immortal, to live forever. God punished man for his sins taking away his immortality, making him mortal. Through the redemption of Jesus, another topic, Jesus, the second Adam, reclaimed what was lost for those of the "family" , [another topic]. The OT has zero context regarding he11 or anything like it. It only looks to a renewal of what was lost. As far as the NT he11. It's not in there in the sense that one thinks. The greek word used for he11, I can't recall what it is, it is a word that is unfamiliar to us, but would have been known in that day. We have to assume it was written to their understanding.  The Israelites had what we might see as a dump. They brought all their trash, dung, etc to this one area outside the encampment. People coming and going, day after day. It being on fire,, that fire never going out.... because it was fueled constantly. This is where the forever mindset came from. They did not have to lite a fire. Just throw it in.  It was for destruction, disposal. The greek word has zero implication of unbelievers suffering in an eternal fire. It does imply the end, or destruction, with no reversal. Now, to clarify something.... there is a major problem for those whom were redemed to immorality, whom are deceived by the antichrist. [another topic], Those whom have fallen for the identity thief of the imposter Christ. It would have been better if they had not been born says the bible. These, are the ones whom experience eternal punishment. Not unbelievers. I have left out major topics here but this is the context. This you will not find anywhere, regardless of how much you might google. Especially not from church


Gehenna was the Hebrew dump outside of Jerusalem


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## buckpasser (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Yeah that doesn’t work. Whether you call it time or not what we refer to as time is a framework in which events can take place. By definition there are no events outside of some context of time.



Yeah, no.


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## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Yeah, no.



?

You can play word games if you want but those words mean things.


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## 1gr8buildit (Apr 1, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> So I would like to explain the context of the bible. Whether you believe it or not, the context is this.  Modern day Christianity is ignorant of this context. In the beginning, Adam was created immortal, to live forever. God punished man for his sins taking away his immortality, making him mortal. Through the redemption of Jesus, another topic, Jesus, the second Adam, reclaimed what was lost for those of the "family" , [another topic]. The OT has zero context regarding he11 or anything like it. It only looks to a renewal of what was lost. As far as the NT he11. It's not in there in the sense that one thinks. The greek word used for he11, I can't recall what it is, it is a word that is unfamiliar to us, but would have been known in that day. We have to assume it was written to their understanding.  The Israelites had what we might see as a dump. They brought all their trash, dung, etc to this one area outside the encampment. People coming and going, day after day. It being on fire,, that fire never going out.... because it was fueled constantly. This is where the forever mindset came from. They did not have to lite a fire. Just throw it in.  It was for destruction, disposal. The greek word has zero implication of unbelievers suffering in an eternal fire. It does imply the end, or destruction, with no reversal. Now, to clarify something.... there is a -major problem- for those whom were redemed to immorality.  Those whom are deceived by the antichrist. [another topic], Those whom have fallen for the identity thief of the imposter Christ. It would have been better if they had not been born says the bible. These, are the ones whom experience eternal punishment. Not unbelievers. I have left out major topics here but this is the context. This you will not find anywhere, regardless of how much you might google. Especially not from church


The biggest unspoken topic here is who is the imposter Christ? [anti Christ ]


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## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> Watch and notice, like robots, not one will make an attempt
> 
> The biggest unspoken topic here is who is the imposter Christ? [anti Christ ]


I've got the popcorn ?


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## buckpasser (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> ?
> 
> You can play word games if you want but those words mean things.





“What we refer to”. That was my point. We’re not in charge.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Omnipresent but can’t have you in his presence.



He tolerates the presence of sinners (for now) but come Judgement Day they are "out of sight, out of mind" I guess. 
Strange to me how God, reigning over a heavenly kingdom, once deliberately killed 99.9 percent of the people in one flood, yet people who don't (or won't) love and accept him are "sinners" destined for eternal torture. I'm not saying God isn't fair, but would this pattern of behavior be normal for anyone except God?


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## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> He tolerates the presence of sinners (for now) but come Judgement Day they are "out of sight, out of mind" I guess.
> Strange to me how God, reigning over a heavenly kingdom, once deliberately killed 99.9 percent of the people in one flood, yet people who don't (or won't) love and accept him are "sinners" destined for eternal torture. I'm not saying God isn't fair, but would this pattern of behavior be normal for anyone except God?


Ahh you may be hitting on the mercy of God tolerating sinners today.

I guess if you created a piece of work and it doesn’t act right, it’s yours to destroy?? Who you owe an explanation to?


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## bullethead (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Ahh you may be hitting on the mercy of God tolerating sinners today.
> 
> I guess if you created a piece of work and it doesn’t act right, it’s yours to destroy?? Who you owe an explanation to?


Art/Children all the same ?


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> So I would like to explain the context of the bible. Whether you believe it or not, the context is this.  Modern day Christianity is ignorant of this context. In the beginning, Adam was created immortal, to live forever. God punished man for his sins taking away his immortality, making him mortal. Through the redemption of Jesus, another topic, Jesus, the second Adam, reclaimed what was lost for those of the "family" , [another topic]. The OT has zero context regarding he11 or anything like it. It only looks to a renewal of what was lost. As far as the NT he11. It's not in there in the sense that one thinks. The greek word used for he11, I can't recall what it is, it is a word that is unfamiliar to us, but would have been known in that day. We have to assume it was written to their understanding.  The Israelites had what we might see as a dump. They brought all their trash, dung, etc to this one area outside the encampment. People coming and going, day after day. It being on fire,, that fire never going out.... because it was fueled constantly. This is where the forever mindset came from. They did not have to lite a fire. Just throw it in.  It was for destruction, disposal. The greek word has zero implication of unbelievers suffering in an eternal fire. It does imply the end, or destruction, with no reversal. Now, to clarify something.... there is a -major problem- for those whom were redemed to immorality.  Those whom are deceived by the antichrist. [another topic], Those whom have fallen for the identity thief of the imposter Christ. It would have been better if they had not been born says the bible. These, are the ones whom experience eternal punishment. Not unbelievers. I have left out major topics here but this is the context. This you will not find anywhere, regardless of how much you might google. Especially not from church




I've heard this theory before a few times. But then people who disagree give bible passages that dispute this theory, and that Jesus does indeed mean an actual hot place where sinners will be tortured for eternity. And of course the Jews don't believe in the hot place at all, yet Christianity uses the Old Testament which is all about pre-Jesus Jews! How does that not initiate a conflict of sorts on the subject of the hot place?  

Anyway let me pose a question: would Christianity even work without the fear of the hot place? Would Christians stay on the straight-and-narrow without the "stick" part of the carrot & stick approach? Would as many non-Christians even come into the fold with no fear of the hot place?


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## jrickman (Apr 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Yes, might makes right. Because God has no higher authority to report to, everything he does is "good and right" if he says it is. If you act the same way as he does it's wrong because he says it's wrong. His house, his rules! It's his world, we just live in it! You don't have to "like" him, you just have to respect & fear him, and tell yourself and others that you love him to save yourself and others from the hot place.
> 
> When you see him coming up the street you quickly cross to the other side, and try to avoid eye contact. If he does see you, act pleasantly surprised to see him, and start
> kissing up to him to hopefully save yourself from reaping his whirlwind of anger.
> ...



Yes.


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## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I've heard this theory before a few times. But then people who disagree give bible passages that dispute this theory, and that Jesus does indeed mean an actual hot place where sinners will be tortured for eternity. And of course the Jews don't believe in the hot place at all, yet Christianity uses the Old Testament which is all about pre-Jesus Jews! How does that not initiate a conflict of sorts on the subject of the hot place?
> 
> Anyway let me pose a question: would Christianity even work without the fear of the hot place? Would Christians stay on the straight-and-narrow without the "stick" part of the carrot & stick approach? Would as many non-Christians even come into the fold with no fear of the hot place?



Or no promise of eternal life?


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Ahh you may be hitting on the mercy of God tolerating sinners today.
> 
> I guess if you created a piece of work and it doesn’t act right, it’s yours to destroy?? Who you owe an explanation to?



So you don't think that destroying nearly an entire planet full of human beings - not to mention all the other innocent life forms - speaks to God's character?


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Yeah that doesn’t work. Whether you call it time or not what we refer to as time is a framework in which events can take place. By definition there are no events outside of some context of time.



Agree! My definition of time is the distance between events. That said, if the entire creation of the universe (which is still expanding thus the event is still unfolding) could be considered as one event - and the ONLY event that will ever exist - then time doesn't really exist. Okay that sounds a little like a Kamala Harris meandering, but you get the idea.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

"Gehenna was the Hebrew dump outside of Jerusalem." - Bullethead

WHAT?    I just bought a time-share there! I knew I should have done more research!


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## WaltL1 (Apr 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> "Gehenna was the Hebrew dump outside of Jerusalem." - Bullethead
> 
> WHAT?    I just bought a time-share there! I knew I should have done more research!


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## WaltL1 (Apr 2, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> What if the invention of time is no more in the afterlife?  It would be hard to imagine “forever” without a sense of time. Might also explain the “eternal” in “eternal punishment”. Eternal in that it might be locked in a sealed container or what time was, but is then complete. Just a thought.


I think I get where you are going with that ^.
Interesting.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 2, 2022)

A lot of theses thoughts such as how God teaches us to be is not what he does is not just a Christian vs Atheist thought process. We have a lot of the same thoughts.
For instance Jesus teaches us to love our enemies and turn the other cheek.
That's a thing that God himself doesn't always abide by. We must forgive others in order for God to forgive us. It appears God only forgives and loves those who reciprocate, to a certain extent, yet his blessings do fall on the just and unjust. But some folks believe Christians get better treatment from God. God has blessed certain nations and individuals in the past. Yet His choosing isn't blessed on our actions but grace. God also hates the enemies of Israel and blesses their friends.

And yes, discipline is not hate. I'm not sure eternal burning in He11 would be considered discipline. Considering it's punishment.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 2, 2022)

Another concept that I don't understand is God getting angry. He has already seen the event that caused His anger. I mean it would be different if He expressed His anger when he first saw the outcome.
Also the folks in the event that caused His anger, had no other choice but to do what God had already seen.


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## Ruger#3 (Apr 2, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Another concept that I don't understand is God getting angry. He has already seen the event that caused His anger. I mean it would be different if He expressed His anger when he first saw the outcome.
> Also the folks in the event that caused His anger, had no other choice but to do what God had already seen.



You must the kid who took a leak on the electric fence, no fear of tempting fate.


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## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> So you don't think that destroying nearly an entire planet full of human beings - not to mention all the other innocent life forms - speaks to God's character?



Sure it does. The difference is in our human terminology / emotions and His. If you’re talking about a place described as heaven in the Bible and that’s where He wants us to be then what happens here is not the end as you might think.

The age old question of why didn’t God just prevent sin from entering, then everyone goes to heaven and there’s no bad - it’s because God didn’t create robots forced to love Him, it’s a choice, He wants you to love Him because you want to. Sin was the target for destruction, there’s mercy right now and according to the story sin will be destroyed again, permanently.


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## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Art/Children all the same ?


See above post.


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## 1gr8buildit (Apr 2, 2022)

Originally there was no "time" . It was not a concept. Whether you believe the bible or just study it like Erhman, the bible context is that originally, they did not know time. But the curse was "time". Even the earth moans under this curse of time and eagerly awaits it's liberation[paraphrasing Rom 8].


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## bullethead (Apr 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> See above post.


It does not explain or justify why anyone would or could put smashing a painting and killing their children on the same level. Sure if you build a bird house you have every right to smash it but that isn't on the same level as a mother and father drowning their kids because they created them nor is there a good excuse to think a god puts it's children on the same level of importance as a birdhouse made of popsicle sticks. 
I don't buy the sovereign excuse.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 2, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> A lot of theses thoughts such as how God teaches us to be is not what he does is not just a Christian vs Atheist thought process. We have a lot of the same thoughts.
> For instance Jesus teaches us to love our enemies and turn the other cheek.
> That's a thing that God himself doesn't always abide by. We must forgive others in order for God to forgive us. It appears God only forgives and loves those who reciprocate, to a certain extent, yet his blessings do fall on the just and unjust. But some folks believe Christians get better treatment from God. God has blessed certain nations and individuals in the past. Yet His choosing isn't blessed on our actions but grace. God also hates the enemies of Israel and blesses their friends.
> 
> And yes, discipline is not hate. I'm not sure eternal burning in He11 would be considered discipline. Considering it's punishment.



You are right, it's absolutely NOT discipline! Discipline is designed to create a positive or effective change in someone's behavior. If someone is dead they don't have a chance to change their behavior. Even if you are still "alive" in a spiritual sense in the hot place, you'll never interact with human society on planet Earth again. All you will do for eternity if experience pain & suffering. 

The hot place is a punishment of a vengeful nature, and IMHO it's not even punishment it's just pure unfathomable torture. No flawed human being (aren't we all?) even Hitler himself, deserves that IMHO.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 2, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Another concept that I don't understand is God getting angry. He has already seen the event that caused His anger. I mean it would be different if He expressed His anger when he first saw the outcome.
> Also the folks in the event that caused His anger, had no other choice but to do what God had already seen.



Good point! How do you surprise yourself? It's like tickling yourself.


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## 1gr8buildit (Apr 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I've heard this theory before a few times. But then people who disagree give bible passages that dispute this theory, and that Jesus does indeed mean an actual hot place where sinners will be tortured for eternity. And of course the Jews don't believe in the hot place at all, yet Christianity uses the Old Testament which is all about pre-Jesus Jews! How does that not initiate a conflict of sorts on the subject of the hot place?
> 
> Anyway let me pose a question: would Christianity even work without the fear of the hot place? Would Christians stay on the straight-and-narrow without the "stick" part of the carrot & stick approach? Would as many non-Christians even come into the fold with no fear of the hot place?


What I suspect that you have never heard before is the part that he11 is not for unbelievers, but rather for believers whom became one with the imposter christ.


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## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2022)

bullethead said:


> It does not explain or justify why anyone would or could put smashing a painting and killing their children on the same level. Sure if you build a bird house you have every right to smash it but that isn't on the same level as a mother and father drowning their kids because they created them nor is there a good excuse to think a god puts it's children on the same level of importance as a birdhouse made of popsicle sticks.
> I don't buy the sovereign excuse.


I’m not offering an excuse nor an explanation to justify……

What I am pointing out is according to the Bible story it’s His creation, He owes no one any accountability, justification, explanation, etc. Sure you can compare drowning your children to Him drowning His but that doesn’t change the fact that He’s still the giver of life and He’s ordained the first and last breath of that life - making it His.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I’m not offering an excuse nor an explanation to justify……
> 
> What I am pointing out is according to the Bible story it’s His creation, He owes no one any accountability, justification, explanation, etc. Sure you can compare drowning your children to Him drowning His but that doesn’t change the fact that He’s still the giver of life and He’s ordained the first and last breath of that life - making it His.


I dont think a nonbeliever will ever be able to square that in their mind. You HAVE to believe for that to be accepted. And I dont say that in a bad way I say it just to point out a big difference in our thought process.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 2, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> What I suspect that you have never heard before is the part that he11 is not for unbelievers, but rather for believers whom became one with the imposter christ.



who exactly is the imposter christ? Is that like the anti-christ?


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## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I dont think a nonbeliever will ever be able to square that in their mind. You HAVE to believe for that to be accepted. And I dont say that in a bad way I say it just to point out a big difference in our thought process.


Yes Sir, agreed. One reason I used “according to the Bible story”.

Trying to keep in mind that you stated ^^^


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## 1gr8buildit (Apr 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> who exactly is the imposter christ? Is that like the anti-christ?





oldfella1962 said:


> who exactly is the imposter christ? Is that like the anti-christ?


The anti christ is not opposed to christ as the word might seem to imply but rather he is one whom comes in and pretends to be Christ. Many will fall for it. The bible gives the analogy that the church is the bride, that the imposter christ sweaps in and deceives the bride.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 2, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> The anti christ is not opposed to christ as the word might seem to imply but rather he is one whom comes in and pretends to be Christ. Many will fall for it. The bible gives the analogy that the church is the bride, that the imposter christ sweaps in and deceives the bride.



Interesting! That sounds like some old school Shakespear drama right there!


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## jrickman (Apr 2, 2022)

What is always somewhat entertaining to me is watching non-Christians sit around and debate the details of who is in and who is out. You really don't see a lot of Christians sit around debating this, and with rare exception the only time the topic will come up in a group of believers is when it is introduced by a non-believer. Y'all seem all tore up about that Book of Life for folks that don't believe it exists.


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## 1gr8buildit (Apr 2, 2022)

Did Paul believe in he11?  He said he wished he could be cut off from Christ for the sake of his brothers, the Jews. In other words, he would trade his eternal life if it meant that the Jews would come to Christ. Would he have said this if he believed that this meant that he would burn forever and ever?


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 2, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> Did Paul believe in he11?  He said he wished he could be cut off from Christ for the sake of his brothers, the Jews. In other words, he would trade his eternal life if it meant that the Jews would come to Christ. Would he have said this if he believed that this meant that he would burn forever and ever?



Whoa.......that makes you think!


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## bullethead (Apr 2, 2022)

jrickman said:


> What is always somewhat entertaining to me is watching non-Christians sit around and debate the details of who is in and who is out. You really don't see a lot of Christians sit around debating this, and with rare exception the only time the topic will come up in a group of believers is when it is introduced by a non-believer. Y'all seem all tore up about that Book of Life for folks that don't believe it exists.


Do you know any Christians who think they out?


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## WaltL1 (Apr 2, 2022)

jrickman said:


> What is always somewhat entertaining to me is watching non-Christians sit around and debate the details of who is in and who is out. You really don't see a lot of Christians sit around debating this, and with rare exception the only time the topic will come up in a group of believers is when it is introduced by a non-believer. Y'all seem all tore up about that Book of Life for folks that don't believe it exists.


Thanks for your valuable contribution. It certainly advanced the discussion at hand.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Do you know any Christians who think they out?


Never themselves. Only those other Christians who arent "real" Christians.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 3, 2022)

We've actually had quite a few discussions over the year about He11, eternal death, and everlasting life in the religious forums above.
There are a few opposing views as to exactly what it all means.

Some say death is just a separation from God and that of and in itself is the eternal He11 or punishment. Maybe the question should be "does man deserve to be punished by receiving eternal separation from God?"

I'd like to think people are Christians because they love God and want eternal life more than from a fear of burning in He11 for an eternity. That makes it sound like they only believe just to escape the fire. Many Christians actually say that's the only reason they believe.
Why not believe in order to gain everlasting life?


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## bullethead (Apr 3, 2022)

Is there an everlasting peace? I don't know what went on for billions of years before my birth. It isn't like I was in the BullPen warming up.
I was born and now can remember things back from probably when I was about 2+yrs old. When I am gone and that consciousness is gone all that is left is a transfer of energy and judging from pre birth an eternal peace with no concept of time or awareness of anything.
More to the point, if you go though life without a god in it, you won't miss it at death. It's like saying you better eat some 2000 year old eggs now because once you die you'll spend eternity never knowing what they taste like. Uhh, No Thank You, I'm good.

I also have heard people say they are believers because they don't want to go to Hades. It sounds more like reluctantly taking an insurance policy on the rental car rather than risking a crash.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 3, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> We've actually had quite a few discussions over the year about He11, eternal death, and everlasting life in the religious forums above.
> There are a few opposing views as to exactly what it all means.
> 
> Some say death is just a separation from God and that of and in itself is the eternal He11 or punishment. Maybe the question should be "does man deserve to be punished by receiving eternal separation from God?"
> ...





> Some say death is just a separation from God and that of and in itself is the eternal He11 or punishment.


Would they be aware they were separated from God or just "dead"?
Seems like they would have to be aware of their separation for it to be a punishment?


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 3, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> We've actually had quite a few discussions over the year about He11, eternal death, and everlasting life in the religious forums above.
> There are a few opposing views as to exactly what it all means.
> 
> Some say death is just a separation from God and that of and in itself is the eternal He11 or punishment. Maybe the question should be "does man deserve to be punished by receiving eternal separation from God?"
> ...



because they aren't greedy? Humans should get one life to live, just like every other species. Granted, so far as we know humans are the only species with the ability to appreciate life, so we _should _appreciate life and try to get the most out of the very limited time we have. No punishment and no reward seems very fair IMHO. 

As for "separation from god" if that means loss of consciousness/non existence that's pretty much what we all had before we were born. However "separation from God" could mean that without God to help us, we will get tortured in the hot place. As I said in another post, I have heard this explanation from various men of the cloth.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 3, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Would they be aware they were separated from God or just "dead"?
> Seems like they would have to be aware of their separation for it to be a punishment?



So there would have to be a third option besides heaven or the hot & torturous place, but this isn't mentioned in the bible. If separation from God is as bad as it gets for sinners/unbelievers (no torture) that's pretty fair, since you were separated from God during your time on Earth by choice, now live with your choices.


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## bullethead (Apr 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> So there would have to be a third option besides heaven or the hot & torturous place, but this isn't mentioned in the bible. If separation from God is as bad as it gets for sinners/unbelievers (no torture) that's pretty fair, since you were separated from God during your time on Earth by choice, now live with your choices.


Maybe you get reborn on Earth II. Your life is an exact opposite of what it has been here. Non Believers are Believers,  Conservatives are Liberals, Hunters are PETA members and on and on and on. You get to experience the exact opposite of everything that is in this life.
Earth III then lets you reflect on it all forever.


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## Spotlite (Apr 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Maybe you get reborn on Earth II. Your life is an exact opposite of what it has been here. Non Believers are Believers,  Conservatives are Liberals, Hunters are PETA members and on and on and on. You get to experience the exact opposite of everything that is in this life.
> Earth III then lets you reflect on it all forever.


That might be good since we’re getting more liberals coming up. Earth 2 will be good if they all turn conservative ?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 3, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Would they be aware they were separated from God or just "dead"?
> Seems like they would have to be aware of their separation for it to be a punishment?


They would be aware of it before death.


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## Spotlite (Apr 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> So there would have to be a third option besides heaven or the hot & torturous place, but this isn't mentioned in the bible. If separation from God is as bad as it gets for sinners/unbelievers (no torture) that's pretty fair, since you were separated from God during your time on Earth by choice, now live with your choices.


According to Revelation, no 3rd option. You are either in the Book of Life or you are not and there were only two places mentioned to go at that point.

Daniel also spoke of such of a place in the Old Testament. Rich man also is described of being in such a  place.

The grave is also a place besides the cemetery. It is a place of death, separated from God - spiritual death.

Was no need in "attempting" with the post that started where unbelievers go because within that post it was stated "this you will not find anywhere" - but, according to scripture there is no private interpretation.

Too many people get hung up on what Paul did or did not say. Paul preached the Gospel of Jesus - death, burial, resurrection and Lordship of Jesus. Paul did not remove what was spoken of in Daniel or in Luke. Luke and Paul preached the same Gospel.   


There are a lot of discussions about burning for eternity or burning up with seconds, is the torment mentally where you remember every time you have an opportunity,  etc........don`t know don`t care. I just know I am not one that is overly concerned about what goes on there. 

And, I always make clear that I am speaking according to the Bible story.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> So there would have to be a third option besides heaven or the hot & torturous place, but this isn't mentioned in the bible. If separation from God is as bad as it gets for sinners/unbelievers (no torture) that's pretty fair, since you were separated from God during your time on Earth by choice, now live with your choices.


If that was an option it would be interesting to see if there was much of a difference in how many nonbelievers there are. I would imagine that without the fear of he11/torture there would be some number of believers who would "drop out".
Probably not alot but still would be interesting to know what that number is.


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## atlashunter (Apr 4, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> Originally there was no "time" . It was not a concept. Whether you believe the bible or just study it like Erhman, the bible context is that originally, they did not know time. But the curse was "time". Even the earth moans under this curse of time and eagerly awaits it's liberation[paraphrasing Rom 8].



I don't know when (no pun intended) that would have been with respect to the bible. The very first sentence of Genesis is based in the concept of time.


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## 660griz (Apr 4, 2022)

jrickman said:


> What is always somewhat entertaining to me is watching non-Christians sit around and debate the details of who is in and who is out. You really don't see a lot of Christians sit around debating this, and with rare exception the only time the topic will come up in a group of believers is when it is introduced by a non-believer. Y'all seem all tore up about that Book of Life for folks that don't believe it exists.


You are correct. In the church I went to, there was no debate. You were told who was in and who was out just about every week.

Also, I think you are missing an important point. 1) Maybe Christians need to sit around and debate this more. 2) Character of the entity being worshiped.


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## atlashunter (Apr 4, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Is there an everlasting peace? I don't know what went on for billions of years before my birth. It isn't like I was in the BullPen warming up.
> I was born and now can remember things back from probably when I was about 2+yrs old. When I am gone and that consciousness is gone all that is left is a transfer of energy and judging from pre birth an eternal peace with no concept of time or awareness of anything.
> More to the point, if you go though life without a god in it, you won't miss it at death. It's like saying you better eat some 2000 year old eggs now because once you die you'll spend eternity never knowing what they taste like. Uhh, No Thank You, I'm good.
> 
> I also have heard people say they are believers because they don't want to go to Hades. It sounds more like reluctantly taking an insurance policy on the rental car rather than risking a crash.



That's pretty much my take on it. If we look at death as nothing more than the absence of life why would after life be any different than pre life?


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## 1gr8buildit (Apr 4, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I don't know when (no pun intended) that would have been with respect to the bible. The very first sentence of Genesis is based in the concept of time.


Time with respect to "aging"


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## 1gr8buildit (Apr 4, 2022)

These conversations prod me to think about things


bullethead said:


> Is there an everlasting peace? I don't know what went on for billions of years before my birth. It isn't like I was in the BullPen warming up.
> I was born and now can remember things back from probably when I was about 2+yrs old. When I am gone and that consciousness is gone all that is left is a transfer of energy and judging from pre birth an eternal peace with no concept of time or awareness of anything.
> More to the point, if you go though life without a god in it, you won't miss it at death. It's like saying you better eat some 2000 year old eggs now because once you die you'll spend eternity never knowing what they taste like. Uhh, No Thank You, I'm good.
> 
> I also have heard people say they are believers because they don't want to go to Hades. It sounds more like reluctantly taking an insurance policy on the rental car rather than risking a crash.


I don't think of it as not wanting to die... or aspiring to live forever, I think of more like this.... I'm in awe of creation, the universe, in all it's beauty, Life in this universe, such as us as humans with vision, emotions, companions, etc.... Therefore I see it as wanting to experience the said world that was lost. I'm thinking it might be awesome. I don't know, but I'm hoping their is no work in heaven, LOL.


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## Spotlite (Apr 4, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Is there an everlasting peace? I don't know what went on for billions of years before my birth. It isn't like I was in the BullPen warming up.
> I was born and now can remember things back from probably when I was about 2+yrs old. When I am gone and that consciousness is gone all that is left is a transfer of energy and judging from pre birth an eternal peace with no concept of time or awareness of anything.
> More to the point, if you go though life without a god in it, you won't miss it at death. It's like saying you better eat some 2000 year old eggs now because once you die you'll spend eternity never knowing what they taste like. Uhh, No Thank You, I'm good.
> 
> I also have heard people say they are believers because they don't want to go to Hades. It sounds more like reluctantly taking an insurance policy on the rental car rather than risking a crash.





> More to the point, if you go though life without a god in it, you won't miss it at death.



No argument here but just pointing out something that hinges on God existing. If He does, there’s plenty to miss according to the story about Him. If He don’t, then you’re right. I guess it’d be fair to say if we’re both wrong and sone other god is out there, we don’t know if we’ll miss anything or not until we miss it. 

We’re all here discussing / debating because some of us believe that the God of the Bible exist, some are here because they don’t believe the He does. Neither of us have anything solid to prove the other wrong.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 4, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> No argument here but just pointing out something that hinges on God existing. If He does, there’s plenty to miss according to the story about Him. If He don’t, then you’re right. I guess it’d be fair to say if we’re both wrong and sone other god is out there, we don’t know if we’ll miss anything or not until we miss it.
> 
> We’re all here discussing / debating because some of us believe that the God of the Bible exist, some are here because they don’t believe the He does. Neither of us have anything solid to prove the other wrong.


Might sound odd but Im kind of glad thats the way it is.


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## Madman (Apr 4, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> No argument here but just pointing out something that hinges on God existing. If He does, there’s plenty to miss according to the story about Him. If He don’t, then you’re right. I guess it’d be fair to say if we’re both wrong and sone other god is out there, we don’t know if we’ll miss anything or not until we miss it.
> 
> We’re all here discussing / debating because some of us believe that the God of the Bible exist, some are here because they don’t believe the He does. Neither of us have anything solid to prove the other wrong.


And the Body evidence for a man named Jesus is large, as is the evidence of his resurrection.


----------



## Israel (Apr 4, 2022)

Few matters impede the knowing of a thing like bias.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 4, 2022)

Madman said:


> And the Body evidence for a man named Jesus is large, as is the evidence of his resurrection.



You might be right about evidence - I saw him today putting shingles on my neighbor's roof. A couple of guys even called him by name. As for resurrection why not? Jesus wasn't the only one: 

"Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 4, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Might sound odd but Im kind of glad thats the way it is.



And that will never change, since nobody has ever came back from the dead to tell us what death is like.


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## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> And that will never change, since nobody has ever came back from the dead to tell us what death is like.


They’re on TV all the time. Plus their experiences are found on the internet so that makes them true

Just search search  - *11 People Who Came Back to Life Reveal What They Saw on “the Other Side”*

All joking aside I’m not sure what all is there so I didn’t link it.


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## Israel (Apr 5, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> And that will never change, since nobody has ever came back from the dead to tell us what death is like.


I really like that post. Oh man, do I like that post!


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## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Might sound odd but Im kind of glad thats the way it is.



I would be extremely impressed if someone could show me the weight of evidence between the two propositions of god vs no god is balanced.


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## 660griz (Apr 5, 2022)

660griz said:


> You are correct. In the church I went to, there was no debate. You were told who was in and who was out just about every week.





Madman said:


> And the Body evidence for a man named Jesus is large,


Probably. And John, etc.  





> as is the evidence of his resurrection.


Not so much. Pretty good read...if you have the time.


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## NCHillbilly (Apr 5, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why not believe in order to gain everlasting life?


That depends on the quality of that life. "Everlasting" is a long time. I don't mean this in a blasphemous or disrespectful way, I'm just being honest here. I hear people talking about what a great time it will be sitting at the Lord's feet praising Jesus forever. That sounds like not much fun at all to me, and forever is a long, long time. Hopefully there something to eat besides milk and honey, too. Are there any trees? Creeks and rivers? A sky to look at? Sunrises and sunsets? Animals? Interesting activities? Good food? Campfires? Bourbon? Or just sitting on a golden floor in a golden city praising Jesus all day every day from now until the end of time, which never comes?


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## ky55 (Apr 5, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> That depends on the quality of that life. "Everlasting" is a long time. I don't mean this in a blasphemous or disrespectful way, I'm just being honest here. I hear people talking about what a great time it will be sitting at the Lord's feet praising Jesus forever. That sounds like not much fun at all to me, and forever is a long, long time. Hopefully there something to eat besides milk and honey, too. Are there any trees? Creeks and rivers? A sky to look at? Sunrises and sunsets? Animals? Interesting activities? Good food? Campfires? Bourbon? Or just sitting on a golden floor in a golden city praising Jesus all day every day from now until the end of time, which never comes?



The very last thing I would ever want to do is spend eternity looking at my brother in law.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> They’re on TV all the time. Plus their experiences are found on the internet so that makes them true
> 
> Just search search  - *11 People Who Came Back to Life Reveal What They Saw on “the Other Side”*
> 
> All joking aside I’m not sure what all is there so I didn’t link it.


 
I don't mean "near death" experiences. I mean people who are no doubt about it dead and buried for years to come back and tell us what being dead is like.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 5, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> That depends on the quality of that life. "Everlasting" is a long time. I don't mean this in a blasphemous or disrespectful way, I'm just being honest here. I hear people talking about what a great time it will be sitting at the Lord's feet praising Jesus forever. That sounds like not much fun at all to me, and forever is a long, long time. Hopefully there something to eat besides milk and honey, too. Are there any trees? Creeks and rivers? A sky to look at? Sunrises and sunsets? Animals? Interesting activities? Good food? Campfires? Bourbon? Or just sitting on a golden floor in a golden city praising Jesus all day every day from now until the end of time, which never comes?


I think it was bucpasser, in one of his questions/posts, that eluded to that maybe there was no concept of "time" in Heaven. In other words no sense of having done something over and over, therefore no sense of boredom of repetition etc.
Im sure Im doing a lousy job of conveying the thought, but it would eliminate "forever is a long time" and eliminate ky55's torture of having to look at his brother in law every day.
Every day would be glorious and new. Even if it was exactly the same as yesterday.

Dont know about the good food. Maybe cheeseburgers every Monday night? Or if the bar is stocked and there is a perpetual Happy Hour.


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## bullethead (Apr 5, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I think it was bucpasser, in one of his questions/posts, that eluded to that maybe there was no concept of "time" in Heaven. In other words no sense of having done something over and over, therefore no sense of boredom of repetition etc.
> Im sure Im doing a lousy job of conveying the thought, but it would eliminate "forever is a long time" and eliminate ky55's torture of having to look at his brother in law every day.
> Every day would be glorious and new. Even if it was exactly the same as yesterday.
> 
> Dont know about the good food. Maybe cheeseburgers every Monday night? Or if the bar is stocked and there is a perpetual Happy Hour.


I understand what BP meant and what you are thinking.
You wake up, get breakfast, read the paper and 100 years has gone by on earth.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 5, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> That depends on the quality of that life. "Everlasting" is a long time. I don't mean this in a blasphemous or disrespectful way, I'm just being honest here. I hear people talking about what a great time it will be sitting at the Lord's feet praising Jesus forever. That sounds like not much fun at all to me, and forever is a long, long time. Hopefully there something to eat besides milk and honey, too. Are there any trees? Creeks and rivers? A sky to look at? Sunrises and sunsets? Animals? Interesting activities? Good food? Campfires? Bourbon? Or just sitting on a golden floor in a golden city praising Jesus all day every day from now until the end of time, which never comes?



nobody knows - you'll find out when you get there - if you get there.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 5, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I would be extremely impressed if someone could show me the weight of evidence between the two propositions of god vs no god is balanced.


Well we know thats not going to happen


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## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I don't mean "near death" experiences. I mean people who are no doubt about it dead and buried for years to come back and tell us what being dead is like.


Like Lazarus that stunketh???

I’d probably freak out myself if that happened!! I know that sounds strange with me believing that Jesus rose but for that purpose it’s different because Jesus was not the normal “human” and His purpose was for that - according to the story / beliefs.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Like Lazarus that stunketh???
> 
> I’d probably freak out myself if that happened!! I know that sounds strange with me believing that Jesus rose but for that purpose it’s different because Jesus was not the normal “human” and His purpose was for that - according to the story / beliefs.



Speaking of Lazarus according to the parable a rich man dies and goes to the hot place, and begs for Lazarus to bring him even a drop of water to ease his torment.
Really now? I though the rich man (like all dead people) will "go to sleep" until Judgement Day when everyone gets sent to heaven or the hot place. But I digress...


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## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Speaking of Lazarus according to the parable a rich man dies and goes to the hot place, and begs for Lazarus to bring him even a drop of water to ease his torment.
> Really now? I though the rich man (like all dead people) will "go to sleep" until Judgement Day when everyone gets sent to heaven or the hot place. But I digress...


Well, I understand but based on the story - before the crucifixion things were done differently. The rest went to the bosom of Abraham. As far as I know that’s just a resting place with the “spirit” of God for some folks like Lazarus, maybe Amish, etc. The bad went to the burn pit. 

After the crucifixion the way to the Father is through Jesus, sins covered by the blood of Jesus and Jesus becomes our mediator petition before the Father for us instead of the original sacrificial offerings where a Priest did it in the Temple. 

Scripture concerning the resurrection of Jesus says graves of the saints that were asleep were opened and they entered into the “holy city” which tells me this is the same place as the bosom of Abraham. 

Now that things are through Jesus, everyone rest in the grave because scripture concerning the return of Jesus goes on to say that the dead in Christ will rise first then those that are alive and remain will join them to meet in the air. During the judgement in Revelations the sea, death and the burn pit gives up the dead that are in them to be judged. 

According to scripture no one goes to heaven until judgement day. Their spirits may be resting in the holy city, bosom of Abraham, etc but until the books are opened they’ve not entered heaven.


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> According to scripture no one goes to heaven until judgement day. Their spirits may be resting in the holy city, bosom of Abraham, etc but until the books are opened they’ve not entered heaven.



Where is Christ right now?  Where ever He is , that is where we will be until we reach Heaven.  

To be absent the body is to be present with Christ


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 5, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> That depends on the quality of that life. "Everlasting" is a long time. I don't mean this in a blasphemous or disrespectful way, I'm just being honest here. I hear people talking about what a great time it will be sitting at the Lord's feet praising Jesus forever. That sounds like not much fun at all to me, and forever is a long, long time. Hopefully there something to eat besides milk and honey, too. Are there any trees? Creeks and rivers? A sky to look at? Sunrises and sunsets? Animals? Interesting activities? Good food? Campfires? Bourbon? Or just sitting on a golden floor in a golden city praising Jesus all day every day from now until the end of time, which never comes?


I like Randy Alcorn's view, we'll being doing a lot more in Heaven than just sitting at the feet of Jesus. There will be rivers and plants and music. You might not get a whole house though, just a room in a big dorm maybe.


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 5, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I like Randy Alcorn's view, we'll being doing a lot more in Heaven than just sitting at the feet of Jesus. There will be rivers and plants and music. You might not get a whole house though, just a room in a big dorm maybe.


I read about people riding horses too, so I'm good


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## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Where is Christ right now?  Where ever He is , that is where we will be until we reach Heaven.
> 
> To be absent the body is to be present with Christ


He’s every where if He’s omnipresent??? You can be present with Him in spirit in the “bosom of Abraham “, paradise, resting place, etc.

All I’m saying is scripture tells us for entering heaven itself is found in a couple places. One is when the Books are opened and commonly believed to be after the raptly of the church and after tribulation. 

The only other place is in Thessalonians at the rapture of the church and the only reason it’s believed you’re entering heaven at that time is because it goes on to say and so shall we ever be with the Lord (no judgement mentioned)

Who are the dead in Christ that’ll rise first if they’ve already gone to heaven?

Looks as if their spirit is somewhere in the presence of the Lord as mention above, but I don’t find anywhere that supports entering heaven just because you’re present with the Lord. You’re present with the Lord right now if you have His spirit.

If I’m missing something I’m not an argumentative one on the subject, just point me to the right direction and I’ll go read it.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> He’s every where if He’s omnipresent??? You can be present with Him in spirit in the “bosom of Abraham “, paradise, resting place, etc.
> 
> All I’m saying is scripture tells us for entering heaven itself is found in a couple places. One is when the Books are opened and commonly believed to be after the raptly of the church and after tribulation.
> 
> ...


I see it as you do, but most Christians don't. 
Colossians 2:5 shows us an example to compare it to;
For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.


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## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I see it as you do, but most Christians don't.
> Colossians 2:5 shows us an example to compare it to;
> For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.


I see that as well but that’s what I’m saying about being present with the Lord in His omnipresence. in spirit. If Heaven is the only place the Lord is then He’s not so omnipresent and if you’re already there - who’s the dead in Christ that’ll rise first?

They gotta use all the scriptures. Colossians isn’t wrong. Neither is Thessalonians. But together they line up with the “bosom of Abraham” that’s a place of rest / comfort, until the rapture. They’re still with the Lord, just not in heaven. If they are, then Thessalonians is a lie.


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## bullethead (Apr 6, 2022)

Earlier and in possibly another thread it was touched on that God doesn't want to spend time in Heaven with sinners. Wouldn't he be spending that time with sinners regardless since he is everywhere at all times?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 6, 2022)

Galatians 4:6
Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”

This is why I'm not sure 2 Corinthians 5:8 means what I once thought it meant. 
Plus what purpose would our resurrection serve? If we are already living in Heaven as spirits, why return for a body like Jesus has?


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## bullethead (Apr 6, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Galatians 4:6
> Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”
> 
> This is why I'm not sure 2 Corinthians 5:8 means what I once thought it meant.
> Plus what purpose would our resurrection serve? If we are already living in Heaven as spirits, why return for a body like Jesus has?


And what would these bodies look like? They would need some sprucing up so why not just poof new bodies around the spirits and leave the rot where it is?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 6, 2022)

bullethead said:


> And what would these bodies look like? They would need some sprucing up so why not just poof new bodies around the spirits and leave the rot where it is?


Good question, not sure. Since Jesus arose in the same body he died in, thus we will as well. Maybe if we didn't we would not be the same person we died as.
Why not just go to Heaven as spirits and live there as spirits since God is living there as a Spirit? This is what Preterist believe. They don't believe Jesus is in Heaven in the physical body he ascended in.
I'm assuming our time in Heaven will be somewhere between the spiritual and physical realm. But if it is physical, where is it? How can one live there as a spirit and come back to get a body and also live there as a physical person?


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## bullethead (Apr 6, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Good question, not sure. Since Jesus arose in the same body he died in, thus we will as well. Maybe if we didn't we would not be the same person we died as.
> Why not just go to Heaven as spirits and live there as spirits since God is living there as a Spirit? This is what Preterist believe. They don't believe Jesus is in Heaven in the physical body he ascended in.
> I'm assuming our time in Heaven will be somewhere between the spiritual and physical realm. But if it is physical, where is it? How can one live there as a spirit and come back to get a body and also live there as a physical person?


Yeah I can understand what you are saying Spirit wise.

If a bodily form is needed then leave the bones in the graves ( because cremated people will be at a serious disadvantage) and poof their former bodies into existence. Again, such doings just bring more questions as to what form/age/condition a reanimated body would look like if poofed. Will they represent the person in good health at their prime? Or whatever the body happened to look like upon death?
Wouldn't be so cool to have everlasting life in an 89yr old worn out body or any number of other scenarios at time of death.


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## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2022)

Scripturally all we know is all things will be made new, in a moment and in a twinkling of an eye, the dead shall be raised incorruptible. 

@bullethead I agree with @Artfuldodger that you brought up sone good questions and it only raises questions that we can’t explain other than we just know somehow there’ll be an instant change according to scripture.


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## bullethead (Apr 6, 2022)

I can see a body made new. In working order again. But where does new start? I think about still born babies, aborted fetuses, young children etc.
What constitutes "made new"? They never reached their prime. Does everyone have their 18yr old body and the wisdom of a 65yr old? You might be made new but are you better? Is everyone brought to same standards of physical excellence and mental brilliance? Or are the imbiciles at the peak of their capacity and you'll want to be as far away then as you get now? Dear Gawd please don't tell me there are Leftist Dems at their peak in Heaven FOR ETERNITY!


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## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I can see a body made new. In working order again. But where does new start? I think about still born babies, aborted fetuses, young children etc.
> What constitutes "made new"? They never reached their prime. Does everyone have their 18yr old body and the wisdom of a 65yr old? You might be made new but are you better? Is everyone brought to same standards of physical excellence and mental brilliance? Or are the imbiciles at the peak of their capacity and you'll want to be as far away then as you get now? Dear Gawd please don't tell me there are Leftist Dems at their peak in Heaven FOR ETERNITY!


I’m not sure where that new starts but scripture says you’ll be known as you are. I’d imagine if you’re 80 you’ll carry that same image but without all of the 80 year problems. 

That said, for the other physical / mental challenges I believe those will also be removed. 

As far as the leftist…….we’re talking about heaven……they too can be fixed


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## 660griz (Apr 8, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> As far as the leftist…….we’re talking about heaven……they too can be fixed



Well that gives me hope but, still skeptical.


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## ambush80 (Apr 11, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I’m not sure where that new starts but scripture says you’ll be known as you are. I’d imagine if you’re 80 you’ll carry that same image but without all of the 80 year problems.
> 
> That said, for the other physical / mental challenges I believe those will also be removed.
> 
> As far as the leftist…….we’re talking about heaven……they too can be fixed




What if the Utopia they imagine is more in line with God's will than yours?


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## Spotlite (Apr 11, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> What if the Utopia they imagine is more in line with God's will than yours?


Leftist???

Nah. Some things God called an abomination that leftist openly support - I don’t think that’s in tune with God’s Will. But that’s just my little opinion.


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## ambush80 (Apr 11, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Leftist???
> 
> Nah. Some things God called an abomination that leftist openly support - I don’t think that’s in tune with God’s Will. But that’s just my little opinion.



Good of you to acknowledge that.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 11, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Leftist???
> 
> Nah. Some things God called an abomination that leftist openly support - I don’t think that’s in tune with God’s Will. But that’s just my little opinion.


Weren't all those strange rules to show us that we couldn't gain salvation by trying to follow them and thus needing salvation through the death of the Messiah? Some of those Liberals also eat animal fat.


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## Spotlite (Apr 12, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Weren't all those strange rules to show us that we couldn't gain salvation by trying to follow them and thus needing salvation through the death of the Messiah? Some of those Liberals also eat animal fat.


As an example, the man lying with mankind as with a woman and leaving the natural use of a woman.

The circus show we call our current administration officiated such a “matrimony” when he was Vice President.

When they call good evil, and evil good and scream “God loves everyone and understands”  - my little opinion reminds me that God called it an abomination so I doubt they’re in tune with God’s Will.


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## stringmusic (Apr 12, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> How does one go about convincing themself this is true? Is there any morality in such an idea?


I haven’t read any of this thread, but a couple of questions come to mind based on your premise and thread title. I honestly don’t really come in here much anymore and I’m not really interested in making a long debate about it but figured I’d throw these out there.

What do you deserve and why do you deserve it?

What do you mean when you ask about the morality of the idea?


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## WaltL1 (Apr 12, 2022)

stringmusic said:


> I haven’t read any of this thread, but a couple of questions come to mind based on your premise and thread title. I honestly don’t really come in here much anymore and I’m not really interested in making a long debate about it but figured I’d throw these out there.
> 
> What do you deserve and why do you deserve it?
> 
> What do you mean when you ask about the morality of the idea?


Hey Robert, hope you and the family are doing well!


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## stringmusic (Apr 12, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Hey Robert, hope you and the family are doing well!


Doing great man! My oldest boy(10) killed a longbeard last Saturday morning and I killed one Sunday morning(before church! Lol) so turkey season is treating us good so far. 

Hope you and yours are doing good too! Good luck if you’re chasing birds.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 13, 2022)

stringmusic said:


> Doing great man! My oldest boy(10) killed a longbeard last Saturday morning and I killed one Sunday morning(before church! Lol) so turkey season is treating us good so far.
> 
> Hope you and yours are doing good too! Good luck if you’re chasing birds.


Thats awesome! Congrats to you and your son!
And I think hunting before church might be cheating. Maybe I should try that


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 13, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> How does one go about convincing themself this is true? Is there any morality in such an idea?



A strawman thread started by an AA.  wow.  That’s never been done before. yawn.  The hypocrisy of broaching the subject of “morality” with a purposely intellectually dishonest thesis would make any Holy Roller proud.  Just goes to show hypocrisy isn’t confined to the church pews.


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## bullethead (Apr 13, 2022)

Sfd, either you have game or you don't. Constantly claiming that the refs are on the take or that the other team cheated is a poor excuse to try to cover for your own lack of ability and skill.
You aren't even on the field. You just complain about the final score as you are leaving the stadium mumbling about bad calls.
Suit up. Help your team. Explain your claims and assertions and make a play that shows your ability to discuss.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 13, 2022)

ya know, this thread title would be an EPIC name for a children's book! 
Maybe even a straight-to-streaming B movie starring Kirk Cameron!


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## ambush80 (Apr 13, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> ya know, this thread title would be an EPIC name for a children's book!
> Maybe even a straight-to-streaming B movie starring Kirk Cameron!



Maybe "Why _Don't_ You Deserve to Burn Forever?"


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Sfd, either you have game or you don't. Constantly claiming that the refs are on the take or that the other team cheated is a poor excuse to try to cover for your own lack of ability and skill.
> You aren't even on the field. You just complain about the final score as you are leaving the stadium mumbling about bad calls.
> Suit up. Help your team. Explain your claims and assertions and make a play that shows your ability to discuss.
> View attachment 1146267



I know right.  Responding to “Have you stopped beating your wife?” holds such promise.  Sign me up for some of that coach.


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## bullethead (Apr 14, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I know right.  Responding to “Have you stopped beating your wife?” holds such promise.  Sign me up for some of that coach.


But until your post #144 "Have you stopped beating your wife" was not mentioned.
Atlas's question was legitimate to those that believe people deserve to burn forever. Surely you acknowledge that many people believe that.
To those that believe that he has asked them to defend it.


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Atlas's question was legitimate



Well let's look at that.



> How does one go about convincing themself this (everyone deserves to burn forever) is true? Is there any morality in such an idea?



*What is a Loaded Question?*
A loaded question is a complex question that contains falsehoods(check), an assumption or unfounded presumption of guilt(check); *such questions are often used to help achieve a questioner's agenda*(and check).

https://study.com/learn/lesson/loaded-question.html

Like I said, "What's not to like?"


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## bullethead (Apr 14, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Well let's look at that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you believe everyone deserves to burn forever? Yes or No, then explain why.


How does a person that says "yes" convince themselves that is true? Explain

Is there any morality to such an idea?
Yes or No. Explain why.

Those are not not tricky questions SFD.
A person can easily answer them without falling into an agenda trap (since there isn't one) unless a person cannot express themselves well.


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Do you believe everyone deserves to burn forever? Yes or No, then explain why.
> 
> 
> How does a person that says "yes" convince themselves that is true? Explain
> ...


 
The question is loaded.  You know it.  I know it.  Everyone with a shred of honesty and integrity knows it.  It was foisted as a loaded question to achieve an agenda, namely disparage Christians and their beliefs.  It's beyond banal.  End of story.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 14, 2022)

No one is totally depraved. So no need for everyone to burn forever from the get go. Common sense would indicate that some people are "good" and all peoples are good or have a moral intelligence that some would agree  is in concert with the will of God, ---- they seek it or live by it or not.


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## CarolinaDawg (Apr 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> But until your post #144 "Have you stopped beating your wife" was not mentioned.
> Atlas's question was legitimate to those that believe people deserve to burn forever. Surely you acknowledge that many people believe that.
> To those that believe that he has asked them to defend it.[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## 1gr8buildit (Apr 14, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The question is loaded.  You know it.  I know it.  Everyone with a shred of honesty and integrity knows it.  It was foisted as a loaded question to achieve an agenda, namely disparage Christians and their beliefs.  It's beyond banal.  End of story.


It's a conversation forum. It goes both ways.... when someone ask an atheist, "what about the apes". Look under the surface, and you should see that your attitude, and yes, we all see it,  stems from a misguided feeling of insult that everyone does not believe as you do. It's ok to have opposition to ones beliefs. It's not an insult. That's why it's referred to as beliefs and not facts. When you step into the conversation of the apologetic forum, you should not be surprised


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## bullethead (Apr 14, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> It's a conversation forum. It goes both ways.... when someone ask an atheist, "what about the apes". Look under the surface, and you should see that your attitude, and yes, we all see it,  stems from a misguided feeling of insult that everyone does not believe as you do. It's ok to have opposition to ones beliefs. It's not an insult. That's why it's referred to as beliefs and not facts. When you step into the conversation of the apologetic forum, you should not be surprised


There are a few guys that pop in here as self appointed judges and seem think that they decide what can be talked about, how questions should be asked,  and what the intents of the participants are. Rarely if ever do they actually participate in the conversation at hand instead complaining why they can't.


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## 1gr8buildit (Apr 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> There are a few guys that pop in here as self appointed judges and seem think that they decide what can be talked about, how questions should be asked,  and what the intents of the participants are. Rarely if ever do they actually participate in the conversation at hand instead complaining why they can't.


That same "offended" feeling that was shown for having a different belief can also be within the box of Christianity, over predestination, bible translations, etc. That's why I don't talk religion among friends, because if you go past the basic.... you will eventually disagree somewhere, and now it's a point of difference that divides


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 14, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> It's a conversation forum. It goes both ways.... when someone ask an atheist, "what about the apes". Look under the surface, and you should see that your attitude, and yes, we all see it,  stems from a misguided feeling of insult that everyone does not believe as you do. It's ok to have opposition to ones beliefs. It's not an insult. That's why it's referred to as beliefs and not facts. When you step into the conversation of the apologetic forum, you should not be surprised



Any conversation is built on intellectual honest otherwise it’s just a insult thinly veiled as a commentary.


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 14, 2022)

bullethead said:


> There are a few guys that pop in here as self appointed judges and seem think that they decide what can be talked about, how questions should be asked,  and what the intents of the participants are. Rarely if ever do they actually participate in the conversation at hand instead complaining why they can't.



No Brother. I just like the smell of a cow pasture and the sound of the mushroom echo chamber. Forgive me for calling a spade a spade.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 14, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The question is loaded.  You know it.  I know it.  Everyone with a shred of honesty and integrity knows it.  It was foisted as a loaded question to achieve an agenda, namely disparage Christians and their beliefs.  It's beyond banal.  End of story.


It is not loaded.

It is directed.


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## Spotlite (Apr 14, 2022)

Let’s see - everyone deserves to burn forever and is there any morality in such an idea?

From my human perspective I’d say not everyone deserves to burn forever. But, for the rapist, murderers and those that hurt any child, woman or elderly in any shape or form  - yes they deserve to burn for eternity.

Assuming there is a God (and I believe there is) I can’t possibly phantom having the mercy to just forgive someone for killing a child because they repented and I can’t phantom the reasoning for judgement such as burning forever just because you didn’t turn to Him. 

I just have to remember that vengeance belongs to Him, just as mercy belongs to Him.


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## bullethead (Apr 14, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> No Brother. I just like the smell of a cow pasture and the sound of the mushroom echo chamber. Forgive me for calling a spade a spade.


Those cologne choices have tainted your ability to recognize legitimate discussion and cards.


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## ambush80 (Apr 15, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Any conversation is built on intellectual honest otherwise it’s just a insult thinly veiled as a commentary.



This seems like what happens if someone tells someone else that their wife is overweight and that it might be bad for her health.  If the people involved are friendly, the comment will be viewed very differently than if either or both parties view the other as adversarial.

I have a backdoor neighbor of 15 years with whom I never got along (well, I did get along with her husband but they divorced).  She doesn't like kids and I think she was upset when we had our daughter.  Anytime we interact there is slight friction.  When an errant wiffleball, frisbee or football would go over her fence, they were never returned.  She called the cops on us twice when we were shooting BB guns into a massive backstop.   I can only imagine how poorly she thinks of us.  Her dog jumped over our fence once.  I didn't know who it belonged to so I called the number on its collar. Later that day it was gone and I found out it belonged to her.  No call back, no thank you. It seems at this point, nothing I say or do will ever be seen as neutral, only adversarial.

One can take insult at anything.


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## Spotlite (Apr 15, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The question is loaded.  You know it.  I know it.  Everyone with a shred of honesty and integrity knows it.  It was foisted as a loaded question to achieve an agenda, namely disparage Christians and their beliefs.  It's beyond banal.  End of story.


Depending on who’s asking the question it can be loaded but for the Christian there’s only a few options on response:

1. But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

2. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

3.  But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.


We’re not instructed to be an Apologetic (offer an argument or defense) so if we participate we shouldn’t expect anything profitable as far as scripture is concerned.


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## Israel (Apr 15, 2022)

Everyone is only as honest _as they can be._


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