# Is God in Complete Control?



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 9, 2009)

Is God in Complete Control?


----------



## StriperAddict (Jan 9, 2009)

Yes, absolutely.

It's our human 'eyes' that get in the way of seeing His providence in every area of our lives, especially when we are hurting and vunerable.  Consider Lam. chapter 3, but be sure to read vs. 22-24.  Eventually our 'eyes' can be open enough to see Him as Lord of all.


----------



## Lead Poison (Jan 9, 2009)

Yes, God's in complete control. 

There is no one above God or more powerful. He is the true and living God, the father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ....any other questions!


----------



## Big10point (Jan 9, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Is God in Complete Control?



a sparrow doesnt fall without His knowing and approving of it.... our hairs are all counted. i think saying He is in "complete" control is an understatement... look at the universe... unbelievable!  God is so sovereign and awesome that our little minds cannot comprehend His magnificance...


----------



## Randy (Jan 9, 2009)

Yes.............but I believe we have free will.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 9, 2009)

Randy said:


> Yes.............but I believe we have free will.


 

hmmm... interesting... I don't see how both are possible... but that is just me..

DB BB


----------



## Ronnie T (Jan 9, 2009)

Yes!  God has complete and total control.  God uses His control as He wishes.


----------



## Lead Poison (Jan 9, 2009)

Randy said:


> Yes.............but I believe we have free will.



I agree.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jan 9, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> hmmm... interesting... I don't see how both are possible... but that is just me..
> 
> DB BB



Without free will, life is nothing more than a stage production written and directed by God Himself.

DBBB, God doesn't control each step you make.  
God didn't direct you to your first cup of coffee this morning.
God did not cause you to have a sleepless night last night because you worked to hard yesterday.
God did not cause the 24 year old man to back over his 4 year old son and kill him last week.  They live near me.
God did not lead Ted Bundy to murder several young ladies a couple of decades ago.
Today, if you loose your temper, you did it.  And God watches and wishes that you didn't.

Free Will.


----------



## Randy (Jan 9, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> hmmm... interesting... I don't see how both are possible... but that is just me..
> 
> DB BB



I see it a lot like our parents.  They have pretty much complete control or could as long as we live at home......yet they "allow" us to do things to a certain point so that we grow and learn and mature.  They could just locks us in a room and only allow us to do what they want us to do but they don't.  While they loves us and want us to do right, they allow us to do things "within" their rules.  And when we go outside those rules, things usually happen that are not good.  They know that and that is why they set some rules.  I believe God works similarly.  He has given us rules to live by and a book to guide us through our lives.  He hopes we follow his rules so that we receive all His blessings.  Some choose not to follow Him and as a result do not receive His blessings and in fact will suffer eternally.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 9, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Without free will, life is nothing more than a stage production written and directed by God Himself.
> 
> DBBB, God doesn't control each step you make.
> God didn't direct you to your first cup of coffee this morning.
> ...


 
God allows things to happen...

First off, I am trying to kick the coffee habit... haven't had any since before Christmas...
Secondly, I slept good last night...
Thirdly, sorry to hear about the man backing over his child... I will add the family to my prayer list... please PM me their last name.
Fourthly, Ted Bundy was allowed to murder several young ladies... God could have never allowed that to happen... But God has His reasons... 
Fithly, I hold my Temper pretty good... It does get the best of me sometimes, but that is just the factor of being a sinful wretched creature... I am not perfect...

Now, I think you and I are focusing on 2 different types of freewill....

Freewill of your Soul, and the freewill of everyday choices, I believe there is a difference...

I know you do not believe in Total Depravity, and that is where me and you differ... The nature of a Totally Deprave person is to always choose that which is against God.... I believe you think we are Partially Deprave... The Partially Deprave person by definition is still capable of Good...

So to me it is never possible for a Totally Depraved person to seek after God, or to even make a choice... To me it is not a choice...

Now my question is, in God's eyes, can anyone that is Not Saved do any Good? my answer: No... I am pretty sure your answer will be Yes...

DB BB


----------



## dawg2 (Jan 9, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Is God in Complete Control?



That is a loaded question and you knew it

Yes, but we have free will.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 9, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> That is a loaded question and you knew it
> 
> Yes, but we have free will.


 

Just trying to keep the conversation lively!!!

Love ya anyway Brother!

DB BB


----------



## earl (Jan 9, 2009)

Here s what you are angling for. NO . I f he was in control there would be no evil .


----------



## Randy (Jan 9, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Now my question is, in God's eyes, can anyone that is Not Saved do any Good? my answer: No... I am pretty sure your answer will be Yes...
> 
> DB BB



Good Lord how blind?  Do you know how many of these rich unsaved hollywood actors give lots of money to charities that do lots of good?


----------



## THREEJAYS (Jan 9, 2009)

Randy said:


> Yes.............but I believe we have free will.



I agree too.



Double Barrel BB said:


> hmmm... interesting... I don't see how both are possible... but that is just me..
> 
> DB BB



God can do anything he wants.I don't see a conflict in him allowing us a choice and him knowing the end of the story.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> hmmm... interesting... I don't see how both are possible... but that is just me..
> 
> Me neither
> 
> DB BB





Ronnie T said:


> Without free will, life is nothing more than a stage production written and directed by God Himself.
> 
> Agreed
> 
> ...





Randy said:


> _I see it a lot like our parents. _
> 
> My parents aren't omniscient or all powerful nor the creators and engineers of everything
> 
> They have pretty much complete control or could as long as we live at home......yet they "allow" us to do things to a certain point so that we grow and learn and mature.  They could just locks us in a room and only allow us to do what they want us to do but they don't.  While they loves us and want us to do right, they allow us to do things "within" their rules.  And when we go outside those rules, things usually happen that are not good.  They know that and that is why they set some rules.  I believe God works similarly.  He has given us rules to live by and a book to guide us through our lives.  He hopes we follow his rules so that we receive all His blessings.  Some choose not to follow Him and as a result do not receive His blessings and in fact will suffer eternally.





earl said:


> Here s what you are angling for. NO . I f he was in control there would be no evil .



If he exists, he controls the "evil" too.  That's just a name we gave to certain anti-social behaviors.  His ideas about what is "good" and "evil" may be very different than yours.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2009)

I couldn't choose both "i don't know" and "I don't care"


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 9, 2009)

Randy said:


> Good Lord how blind? Do you know how many of these rich unsaved hollywood actors give lots of money to charities that do lots of good?


 
Romans 3:10-18
10.As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 
11.There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 
12.They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one  .
13.Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 
14.Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 
15.Their feet are swift to shed blood: 
16.Destruction and misery are in their ways: 
17.And the way of peace have they not known :
18.There is no fear of God before their eyes.


----------



## Huntinfool (Jan 9, 2009)

Yes, he is is complete control.  No, he does not control everything.

Make sense?


----------



## gtparts (Jan 9, 2009)

Yes,yes, yes!!!

 God is sovereign over all.... even the chaos He allows, even the evil that opposes Him and causes us to live in this fallen world. 

If it were not so, He could not put an end to Satan and sin, nor could He save us, and He would not be God.

BUT,..... Praise Him! He is exactly who He claims to be. He is Creator and Lord and Redeemer..... He is the great I AM!!


----------



## rhino4x4 (Jan 9, 2009)

yes God is in complete control,but we make our on choices and decisions throughout the day. we should strive to make our choices based on whether or not they would offend God or if they would get his approval.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 9, 2009)

gtparts said:


> yes,yes, yes!!!
> 
> God is sovereign over all.... Even the chaos he allows, even the evil that opposes him and causes us to live in this fallen world.
> 
> ...


 

*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## gtparts (Jan 9, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> I couldn't choose both "i don't know" and "I don't care"



It saddens me to know that one day, "You will." and "You will."


----------



## reformedpastor (Jan 9, 2009)

I too believe that God is in complete and total control and man has FREE WILL.  Does this shock anyone?


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 9, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> I couldn't choose both "i don't know" and "I don't care"


 
Perhaps one day, God will open your eyes, and what a great witness of God's work in your life that would be...

I pray it is God's will that your eyes will be open.

DB BB


----------



## gtparts (Jan 9, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> I couldn't choose both "i don't know" and "I don't care"



Why would anybody be content with ignorance and apathy as it relates to spiritual things, specifically God?


----------



## StriperAddict (Jan 9, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Yes, he is is complete control. No, he does not control everything.
> 
> Make sense?


 
Hmmm...

Well, God even uses evil events and gives Satan limited ability...  for HIS purpose, not ours.  At least, we may not see the big picture, like Job, until later.  But even then, if not seen at all, the Lord is still trustworthy.  The worse that can happen, which was stated this morning, is that we are in His presence without the burden of this world on us any longer; pain, sickness, sin, etc., is gone.  I look forward to that day.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jan 9, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> God allows things to happen...
> 
> First off, I am trying to kick the coffee habit... haven't had any since before Christmas...  I love my coffee
> Secondly, I slept good last night...
> ...




I'm not trying to sway you.  I just wanted to make sure you understand my belief.  I don't know if we agree or not.  If we don't agree, it's okay, life will go on.


----------



## Big10point (Jan 9, 2009)

earl said:


> Here s what you are angling for. NO . I f he was in control there would be no evil .



there is no evil... where He is...  in heaven.  since we rebelled against Him, He was just to bring evil into the world.  life is a test. we will either pass or fail.  the test is to see who really loves God and who doesn't. he is weeding out the wheat from weeds, sheeps from goats to see who will be worthy of living forever in His presence... to live in Heaven forever is something nobody deserves. we all deserve helll.  and those who choose to follow evil and reject Christ will not spend forever in His presence.  the Bible is black and white and we're all black.  when we accept Jesus, we become white as snow in His eyes but we have to stay that way... we cant keep sinning. there must be TRUE repentance. God is just, for allowing evil to scour the earth... He is just, when He allows bad things to happen.  God is always just, its part of who He is.  if i get cancer today and die next month, its just, because God allowed it.  if i live to be 100 and have a great life, its just b/c God allowed it.  if a person sends themselves to helll, its just... God is perfect in every way...


----------



## Huntinfool (Jan 9, 2009)

StriperAddict said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> Well, God even uses evil events and gives Satan limited ability...  for HIS purpose, not ours.  At least, we may not see the big picture, like Job, until later.  But even then, if not seen at all, the Lord is still trustworthy.  The worse that can happen, which was stated this morning, is that we are in His presence without the burden of this world on us any longer; pain, sickness, sin, etc., is gone.  I look forward to that day.



Exactly.  He uses the events.  But may or may not cause them to happen.  I am convinced of the permissive will of God.  Did he cause those things to happen to Job?  Well, I suppose you could argue that.  I view it more that he allowed them to happen.  He was in control in that he could have stopped it at any time.  But he did not control what Satan did to him other than restrict him to not killing him.


----------



## Big10point (Jan 9, 2009)

earl said:


> Here s what you are angling for. NO . I f he was in control there would be no evil .



http://www.gotquestions.org/Isaiah-45-7.html

Question: "Why does Isaiah 45:7 say that God created evil?"

Answer: Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” How does Isaiah 45:7 agree with the view that God did not create evil? There are two key facts that need to be considered. (1) The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence.

(2) The context of Isaiah 45:7 makes it clear that something other than “bringing moral evil into existence” is in mind. The context of Isaiah 45:7 is God rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. God pours out salvation and blessings on those whom He favors. God brings judgment on those who continue to rebel against Him. “Woe to him who quarrels with his Master” (Isaiah 45:9). That is the person to whom God brings “evil” and “disaster.” So, rather than saying that God created “moral evil,” Isaiah 45:7 is presenting a common theme of Scripture – that God brings disaster on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jan 9, 2009)

Randy said:


> Yes.............but I believe we have free will.



  How come I'd figure you'd say something like this



reformedpastor said:


> I too believe that God is in complete and total control and man has FREE WILL.  Does this shock anyone?



Do explain.  I'm curious.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Why would anybody be content with ignorance and apathy as it relates to spiritual things, specifically God?



Because you will never know the truth and because it doesn't make you any better, sometimes worse.


----------



## StriperAddict (Jan 9, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Because you will never know the truth and because it doesn't make you any better, sometimes worse.


 
Errrrr, no.


*John 8:32*
And ye shall know the *truth*, and the *truth* shall make you *free*.


----------



## dawg2 (Jan 9, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Because you will never know the truth and because it doesn't make you any better, sometimes worse.



If it makes them worse, then it is not the "truth."


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2009)

StriperAddict said:


> Errrrr, no.
> 
> 
> *John 8:32*
> And ye shall know the *truth*, and the *truth* shall make you *free*.




You guys who profess to know "the truth" can't even agree on what it is.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Exactly.  He uses the events.  But may or may not cause them to happen.  I am convinced of the permissive will of God. _ Did he cause those things to happen to Job?  Well, I suppose you could argue that.  I view it more that he allowed them to happen. He was in control in that he could have stopped it at any time._   But he did not control what Satan did to him other than restrict him to not killing him.



Complicity.


----------



## StriperAddict (Jan 9, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> You guys who profess to know "the truth" can't even agree on what it is.


 
Sure we can.  It's not 'what' it's WHO.

*John 14:6*
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the *truth*, and the *life*: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


----------



## reformedpastor (Jan 9, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> How come I'd figure you'd say something like this
> 
> 
> 
> Do explain.  I'm curious.




The doctrine of God's sovereignty (His complete control over all things) and mans responsibility has not always been in dispute by the christian church.  Or maybe I should put it this way, the church has always understood the relationship of this doctrine, God sovereignty, and the doctrine of man, to be in harmony, not in opposition. 

In fact the Church has always recognized the importance of rightly knowing how these two doctrines, which many see as irreconcilable, vital to christian living. 


I will prove this by posting various historical confessions the church has produced. 

The Belgic confession 1561Article XIV. The Creation and Fall of Man, and His Incapacity to Perform What Is Truly Good


We believe that God created man out of the dust of the earth, and made and formed him after His own image and likeness, good, righteous, and holy, capable in all things to will agreeably to the will of God. But being in honor, he understood it not, neither knew his excellency, but wilfully subjected himself to sin and consequently to death and the curse, giving ear to the words of the devil. For the commandment of life, which he had received, he transgressed; and by sin separated himself from God, who was his true life; having corrupted his whole nature; whereby he made himself liable to corporal and spiritual death. And being thus become wicked, perverse, and corrupt in all his ways, he has lost all his excellent gifts which he had received from God, and retained only small remains thereof, which, however, are sufficient to leave man without excuse; for all the light which is in us is changed into darkness, as the Scriptures teach us, saying: The light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not; where St. John calls men darkness.

Therefore we reject all that is taught repugnant to this concerning the free will of man, since man is but a slave to sin, and can receive nothing, except it have been given him from heaven. For who may presume to boast that he of himself can do any good, since Christ says: No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him? Who will glory in his own will, who understands that the mind of the flesh is enmity against God? Who can speak of his knowledge, since the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God? In short, who dares suggest any thought, since he knows that we are not sufficient of ourselves to account anything as of ourselves, but that our sufficiency is of God? And therefore what the apostle says ought justly to be held sure and firm, that God worketh in us both to will and to work, for his good pleasure. For there is no understanding nor will conformable to the divine understanding and will but what Christ has wrought in man; which He teaches us, when He says: Apart from me ye can do nothing.


This confessional statement implies two truths: first that man was made with the freedom to serve God without reservation and secondly man after sin is no longer free to serve God without divine intervention. Fallen man is only FREE to sin and serve self. Yet still a free agent. Free to be what he is. 

Second Helvetic confession 1566 ch.9 Free will and man's power and ability

WHAT MAN WAS BEFORE THE FALL. There is the state in which man was in the beginning before the fall, namely, upright and free, so that he could both continue in goodness and decline to evil. However, he declined to evil, and has involved himself and the whole human race in sin and death, as has been said already. 

WHAT MAN WAS AFTER THE FALL. Then we are to consider what man was after the fall. To be sure, his reason was not taken from him, nor was he deprived of will, and he was not entirely changed into a stone or a tree. But they were so altered and weakened that they no longer can do what they could before the fall. For the understanding is darkened, and the will which was free has become an enslaved will. Now it serves sin, not unwillingly but willingly. And indeed, it is called a will, not an unwilling. 

The 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith chapter 9 
CHAPTER 9 Man's Free Will 

1    God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good or evil.

2    Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.

3    Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

4    When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He freeth him from his natural bondage under sin;8 and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that, by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly or only will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

5    The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.

*Notice man's will has not been removed. It remains attached to his nature. As a man is in his heart so is he. *


The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith chapter 9 is almost word for word with the Westminster Confession. 


The point is God can NEVER NOT BE SOVEREIGN! And man is ALWAYS FREE. 

Just as God's will is determined by His nature. HE IS HOLY so HIS WILL IS HOLY. 

Man's will is determined by his nature. Before the fall of man he had a holy will because he was holy but able to change. After the fall he has a completely corrupted nature therefore his will is bent towards evil. But NEVERTHELESS a will. 

God is always in complete control and man is always free!!! Sorry for being long but some may enjoy the reading.


----------



## Big10point (Jan 9, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Complicity.



this is Truth and I think most here would agree.... we were created by God as His children.  as those children we have the choice to love Him or not.  If the child does love their Father, they will show Him their love.  This is done many ways 1) studying the Father's Word 2) obeying His commandments 3) loving our brothers and enemies 4) prayer 5) good works 6) true repentance and a turning away from sins 7) fellowship 8) having faith 9) visiting orphans and the widowed...  and many more...  when we do these things we show our love for Him and He takes care of us thru His grace...  God is a serious God and we should take spiritual things seriously also... our salvation depends on it. if a person has no desire for eternal life with God then they'll do their own selfish thing thru out their lives and when they die, regardless if they were a good person or not, they will receive eternal separation from God...  that just doesnt appeal to me. we should all want to be with the Creator forever...


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2009)

StriperAddict said:


> Sure we can.  It's not 'what' it's WHO.
> 
> *John 14:6*
> Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the *truth*, and the *life*: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.




I meant deists.


----------



## farmasis (Jan 9, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Yes, he is is complete control. No, he does not control everything.
> 
> Make sense?


 
Great way to put it!


----------



## farmasis (Jan 9, 2009)

I think I agree with reformedpastor?!?!

I must have to read it again......


----------



## jason4445 (Jan 10, 2009)

I tend to agree with the eastern religions that everything is a balance.  50% of what happens to us in life happens by God/fate/karma or whatever you want to call it, the other 50% is caused by us and our free will on how we handle the 50% God/fate/karma  lays upon us.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 10, 2009)

jason4445 said:


> I tend to agree with the eastern religions that everything is a balance.  50% of what happens to us in life happens by God/fate/karma or whatever you want to call it, the other 50% is caused by us and our free will on how we handle the 50% God/fate/karma  lays upon us.



The Yin Yang is really a very good symbol for that kind of thinking.  One WHOLE circle, half white half black, with a little white in the black and a little black in the white.  Really speaks to the nature of spirituality.


----------



## Israel (Jan 10, 2009)

God is not a puppet master, but he has defined to the last detail the workings of all things, and the only way to be free of the temporal outcomes of constraint is to follow Jesus.
Things will either get tighter and tighter or one learns of the eternal liberty in Christ.
God's word has framed this creation, and it will and must absolutely operate according thereto.


----------



## JustUs4All (Jan 10, 2009)

Randy said:


> Yes.............but I believe we have free will.



That pretty much sums up my belief.  I believe that God is in complete control; created all things in his own way and in his own time; and set in motion all the complex relationships and processes that surround us.  

I believe that God gave man dominion over all that is here in the earth and chose to allow man free reign in his actions here on earth and made man accountable for those actions.  I believe that God gave man a set of rules that, if followed, would allow man to join God after his life on earth had ended. I believe that then God stood back and watched his creation unfold under the dominion of man.  I believe that God intervenes intermittently in the functions of his creation here on earth and that he does so when he sees fit and sometimes at the behest of man through prayer.

I believe that God decided to give man a break and sent Christ with a new set of rules.  I believe that God has still reserved to man the freedom to choose whether to believe or not.  I can not see why, if every action and occurrence was preordained, God would not just read the Cliff Notes.  

What is the purpose of life on this imperfect earth for a man if not is is not a test?


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 10, 2009)

Pehaps one can ask does She control me?


----------



## reformedpastor (Jan 10, 2009)

All I have proved is the church has always understood these two truths. God is always sovereign and controls all of His creation both seen and unseen and man has free will. 

But, where we may separate is the exact meaning of free will. If man is a created being and not a production of slime and billions of years, then his existence begs the question........created for what? And for whom?  

IF created by God then his freedom will be defined by God his creator. 

Too many christians think man's will is some independent force within him instead of it being the desire of his heart which is his nature. He will desire according to his nature. 

Man is always free to act according to his nature. Though consequences to ones actions often prohibit him from doing exactly what he pleases. All of us would be thankful for this, I hope. Man is free and responsible, they go hand in hand. If man is not free he cannot be responsible. 

This brings light to gospel transformation. Being born again means being recreated from a fallen nature to a reborn one that has God's law written on it which makes it recognizable from the not born again folks. 

Being born again changes ones will, from wanting to live for self to living for the glory of God and benefit of others. 

This is the two greatest commandments and also the test given by the Apostle John in the 1John. If you truly know God you will keep His commandments and love the brethren. In a sinful condition this is impossible. Therefore you must be born again (have your nature changed which affects your will) to see the kingdom of God.

So, mans free will is not free absolutely. Laws of his nature govern his freedom. 

Yet God is sovereign absolutely or He can not be God. To be God is to be sovereign. 


This is believed by faith. Both are taught in scripture and just because its complex and deep doesn't make it not true nor does it make it a contradiction. Truth isn't only valid  when we can understand it, truth is always true and our finiteness does not change this.


----------



## gtparts (Jan 10, 2009)

Whoaaaaa!!!!

Some good stuff here, that resonates with what the Bible teaches.

Thanks, ya'll!!


----------



## Ronnie T (Jan 10, 2009)

Isn't it most probably true that we'll never be able to know exactly which things God has left totally in our hands and which things he has taken care of unbeknownst to us.  The question:  Did I choose to do this or did God take over and?
I'm sure it's adviseable to give God all the glory for our accomplishments and blame ourselves for the failures.


----------



## farmasis (Jan 10, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> All I have proved is the church has always understood these two truths. God is always sovereign and controls all of His creation both seen and unseen and man has free will.
> 
> But, where we may separate is the exact meaning of free will. If man is a created being and not a production of slime and billions of years, then his existence begs the question........created for what? And for whom?
> 
> ...


 
Great post.
This is what I meant by limited free will.
Of course God, who is in complete control, can revoke our will at any time he see necessary for his purpose.


----------



## reformedpastor (Jan 10, 2009)

Read the book Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther.


----------



## thedeacon (Jan 12, 2009)

I know this is an old thread but I got to say this. Friends and neighbors, brothers and sisters and anyone else that will listen. I believe with all my heart that God has complete control over the destiny of every single person that has walked and will walk on the green grass of this good earth. The way that we live our lives here on this earth that he has provided for us will determine how he controls our ultimate destiny. 

when we get to heaven we will all agree on everything and if you don't make it there, guess what? You will agree with us to


----------



## farmasis (Jan 12, 2009)

Deacon, by complete control, do you mean he has determined where we will go ahead of time and will direct us toward or away from him?


----------



## thedeacon (Jan 12, 2009)

Of course not that would defeat God's purpose for us as "Followers". God doesn't determine where we go, we do that by the way we live. But we will be judged by God in the final hour and God will have complete control in that judgement. 

That sounds harsh but it really isn't when you consider who our mediator is.

Sorry I Don't make sense sometimes. Hope that is better


----------



## farmasis (Jan 12, 2009)

thedeacon said:


> Of course not that would defeat God's purpose for us as "Followers". God doesn't determine where we go, we do that by the way we live. But we will be judged by God in the final hour and God will have complete control in that judgement.
> 
> That sounds harsh but it really isn't when you consider who our mediator is.
> 
> Sorry I Don't make sense sometimes. Hope that is better


 
Gotcha.
Right with ya brother.


----------



## thedeacon (Jan 12, 2009)

wow finally someone is not calling me a werf
thats a Wild Eyed Religious Fanatic


----------



## jawja_peach (Jan 12, 2009)

*Free Will?? Yup!*


```

```



Double Barrel BB said:


> hmmm... interesting... I don't see how both are possible... but that is just me..
> 
> DB BB





When I try to explaining my views of these questions concerning the Trinity, I feel like I bumble all over the place. And with that feel no one could even understand what I'm trying to say much-less agree. But here it goes...bear with me.. I do believe God is in control. And I do believe in Free-will. How?? God gives us at least one time to become a 'child of His'. Even though He is the Creator of all. How many times have y'all (everyone) ran from conviction?? How many times has He called you to repent and be Saved and you held on to the pew so hard your knuckles were white?? This is FREE WILL.. God is in control, as we seen in Job. Job was one of Gods 'best' and yes asked Satan, have you considered my servant Job?(not word for word) Job even had free will. He could choose how to handle the cards he was dealt. He chose God over everything. CHOSE...KEY WORD. If we didn't have free will, we would be sinless and wouldn't need the Holy Spirit, that in which Christ said He would send down. After we are Saved by grace through faith, we are pure, clean, without spot or blemish. There for if you didn't have free will and the choose of such we really would be sinless. Are you Sinless?? I sin daily and repent daily. I'm a Saved Child of God and have been for a 11 yrs now. I have made some choices that when I made them the convicting power of the Holy Spirit flew all over me. Letting me know that I made the wrong choice. That's Free will. I believe once we are saved our name is written down in the Lambs Book of Life and there it will stay. (SORRY NO WHITE OUT IN HEAVEN...carnal remark I know, but still the truth..) The choices we make in this life, after we are Saved, we will pay for in this body. Free will again. In the Bible it speaks of correction. And that God will correct/discipline us. Free will...yet again. The Bible is full of evidence to support "Free Will". God is in control of all, but He lets us have free will to help us grow. Like a baby needing milk before meat. How do we bring 'meat' into the meal of an infant?? Will small doses, a little here and there. When we as parents feed our young, we pretty much know how much the little one can get, and whether it's ready for a different 'stage' of 'food'...we know this because this is our child, our baby, who knows you better than your Father in Heaven and your earthly parents? Hope I made sense and got my belief across..


----------



## Big10point (Jan 12, 2009)

jawja_peach said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> 
> ...



no bumbling and very well said.... spoken from the heart.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 12, 2009)

jawja_peach said:


> How many times has He called you to repent and be Saved and you held on to the pew so hard your knuckles were white?? This is FREE WILL..


 
I have to disagree with you here... which will not come to most people surprise... It is called Depravity... I just happen to believe in Total Depravity, rather than partial... Once Saved, my Total Depravity was turned into Partial Depravtiy... Even though I am Saved, I am completely aware of my depravity... and have at times acted in accordance to the depraved nature... That I am not proud of and all I can do when that happens is ask for God's Mercy and Forgiveness.



jawja_peach said:


> God is in control, as we seen in Job. Job was one of Gods 'best' and yes asked Satan, have you considered my servant Job?(not word for word) Job even had free will. He could choose how to handle the cards he was dealt. He chose God over everything. CHOSE...KEY WORD.


 
God knew what Job would do, that is why He allowed Satan to test Job's devotion to God... You will note that God did put a limit as to how much Satan to do to Job... Satan could not kill Job... Do you really think that God was going to let Satan TEST Job and win? Job's strength and resolve came from God, not from himself... If it was just left up to Job, without God's strength in him, then Job would have failed... Much like us today.



jawja_peach said:


> If we didn't have free will, we would be sinless and wouldn't need the Holy Spirit, that in which Christ said He would send down. After we are Saved by grace through faith, we are pure, clean, without spot or blemish. There for if you didn't have free will and the choose of such we really would be sinless. Are you Sinless??


 
Sinless... Nope, we would not be sinless... We would be full of Sin, and in fact we are, every single one of us is full of Sin, it is only by God's wonderful Grace that anyone is Saved.



jawja_peach said:


> I sin daily and repent daily. I'm a Saved Child of God and have been for a 11 yrs now. I have made some choices that when I made them the convicting power of the Holy Spirit flew all over me. Letting me know that I made the wrong choice. That's Free will. I believe once we are saved our name is written down in the Lambs Book of Life and there it will stay. (SORRY NO WHITE OUT IN HEAVEN...carnal remark I know, but still the truth..) The choices we make in this life, after we are Saved, we will pay for in this body. Free will again. In the Bible it speaks of correction. And that God will correct/discipline us. Free will...yet again. The Bible is full of evidence to support "Free Will". God is in control of all, but He lets us have free will to help us grow. Like a baby needing milk before meat. How do we bring 'meat' into the meal of an infant?? Will small doses, a little here and there. When we as parents feed our young, we pretty much know how much the little one can get, and whether it's ready for a different 'stage' of 'food'...we know this because this is our child, our baby, who knows you better than your Father in Heaven and your earthly parents? Hope I made sense and got my belief across..


 

Thank you for sharing your belief... Here is mine...

Just a little background...

I am sure others will say that I was taught this doctorine by someone else... Well I guess you will have to take my word for it that I wasn't... I came of this understanding, through prayer, and reading God's word, and asking for understanding of His Word... I later realized that what I believe closely resembles Calvinism...

May I suggest, researching The Doctorines of Grace, if you are interested in it...

When it comes to Salvation, there is no free will... God chooses who will be Saved... Who better to choose than God? We are His Creation...

Romans 8(underlining is my emphasis)
28.And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 
29.For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 
30.Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 9 (underlining is my emphasis)
9.For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 
10.And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one , even by our father Isaac; 
11.(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12.It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 
13.As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14.What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15.For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16.So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17.For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 
18.Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19.Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 
20.Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 
21.Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to  make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 
22.What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 
23.And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 
24.Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

DB BB


----------



## thedeacon (Jan 12, 2009)

Are you saying God might not have chosen me and I am wasting my time.

Just asking


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 12, 2009)

thedeacon said:


> Are you saying God might not have chosen me and I am wasting my time.
> 
> Just asking


 
No, I am saying those that are chosen know who they are... without any doubt...

DB BB


----------



## thedeacon (Jan 12, 2009)

oh ok


----------



## jawja_peach (Jan 12, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Isn't it most probably true that we'll never be able to know exactly which things God has left totally in our hands and which things he has taken care of unbeknownst to us.  The question:  Did I choose to do this or did God take over and?
> I'm sure it's adviseable to give God all the glory for our accomplishments and blame ourselves for the failures.


 
 Hi friend, you bring out a question that I was asked not to long ago by a young'n in the youth group I was working with. And though I gave her a general answer, that we don't know the mind of God, and sometimes to receive a correct answer we have to pray about it. So, I took my own advice and this is what God has lead me to believe. We are never left alone. God is always present. And although I believe in Free Will, I also believe that if we are in need, in anyway, God is always there. Kinda like being a parent. You see what your young'ns gona do, you watch it start gett'n purdy tuff, but you hold back--wanting to go straight over and take care of business. But you  know  you MUST LET THEM LEARN CERTAIN THINGS ON THEIR OWN. And then when they make it through, Oh how the clay has been fashioned, sculpted and molded. I also believe there are times when God lets us get into different situations to where we know the difference in the things we can do alone, and those that we need GOD FOR. But to me in all cases I believe that if ever needed and asked, God will be right there. I feel His presents with me ALL the time, and feel all it takes is one thought of needing help and He's right there...How do I know for sure..? His word says so...


----------



## jawja_peach (Jan 12, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I have to disagree with you here... which will not come to most people surprise... It is called Depravity... I just happen to believe in Total Depravity, rather than partial... Once Saved, my Total Depravity was turned into Partial Depravtiy... Even though I am Saved, I am completely aware of my depravity... and have at times acted in accordance to the depraved nature... That I am not proud of and all I can do when that happens is ask for God's Mercy and Forgiveness.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 (I use Caps on my points and this goes out in brotherly/sisterly love as I am a Southern Lady and will act as such... which is hard sometimes but I do at least try very hard...

 I'm sorry, but to me you are contradicting your self Sir. (being a polite southern lady when I address you as sir, not saying it to be a smart*** but a Southern Lady.) You just said, "Sinless... Nope, we would not be sinless... We would be full of Sin, and in fact we are, every single one of us is full of Sin, it is only by God's wonderful Grace that anyone is Saved." But then you say, "No, I am saying those that are chosen know who they are... without any doubt..." How do they know??  First you say we are all full of sin, then say God hand picks us? God can't look upon sin, Sir. You said 'they will know'..They know because they are drawn by the Holy Spirit, who was sent to us as a comforter by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, to an altar of repentance. Then we are Saved by Gods Grace. But, if we didn't heed to the calling of the Holy Spirit then we wouldn't have found that altar of repentance and thus still be as lost as a Billy Goat in a snow storm and BUST H*** WIDE OPEN!! By telling anyone, especially the lost, that there is no way they can get into Heaven is Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----'n them to H***!! How can you not see that?? The lost are just that LOST! They have no idea what you are talking about when you start telling them what all you listed above. WE CAN'T BUILD WALLS SO HIGH THE LOST CAN'T CROSS. YOU ARE BUILDING THIS WALL BY TELLING THEM THAT IF THEY DON'T FEEL A CERTAIN WAY OR WHAT HAVE YOU AS YOU SAID "No, I am saying those that are chosen know who they are... without any doubt..." So tell me friend, am I going to Heaven?? Do you also believe only a certain number of people  are going to enter there in?? And again when thedeacon asked  "Are you saying God might not have chosen me and I am wasting my time." You say he'll know...um, hmm... How will he know??? God did send His son for a select few. The Jews. They received Him NOT..THERE-FOR THAT OPENED THE DOOR TO THOSE LIKE US, LIKE ME, THE GENTILES...THE ONES THAT ACCEPTED CHRIST...AND WERE NO LONGER A GENTILE BUT A JEW INWARD. This is where the circumcision of the heart takes place (which was a Jewish physical custom that separated the two, Jews from the Gentiles)...the act of repentance and being saved, made "us" those "Select"...(which is now Spiritual instead of Physical.)

Like I've said on here before, Sir, we can agree to disagree, and don't feel like we're going to find common ground on this. I just know I DON'T WANT THE BLOOD OF ANYONE ON MY HANDS. And by telling someone who's a Biker, that was in the H***'s Angels, been in and out of jail, that they might as well not worry about their soul because they're Dam'd to an eternity in H*** since they weren't hand picked by God, and God just sent Jesus down to suffer for _NO REASON_. Did Jesus not come and bear the cross, bear our sins so that we could be saved?? Did God not turn His head as Christ gave up the Ghost?? God turned His head because of the Sin, as God can not look upon sin. Whose sin was it??? NOT THE JEW, WHICH ARE THE SELECT THAT YOU SPEAK OF SIR. BUT FOR US, THE GENTILE THAT ACCEPTED HIM PHYSICALLY THEN AND SPIRITUALLY NOW. So, with all that said I, being a Southern Lady, will step back and agree to disagree with you, Sir. And will pray that nothing said here will confuse as God is not the author of confusion...and I totally send this out with a humble spirit.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 12, 2009)

jawja_peach said:


> How do they know??


 
If you are Saved, then you know you are Saved...




jawja_peach said:


> First you say we are all full of sin, then say God hand picks us? God can't look upon sin, Sir. You said 'they will know'..They know because they are drawn by the Holy Spirit, who was sent to us as a comforter by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, to an altar of repentance. Then we are Saved by Gods Grace. But, if we didn't heed to the calling of the Holy Spirit then we wouldn't have found that altar of repentance and thus still be as lost as a Billy Goat in a snow storm and BUST H*** WIDE OPEN!! By telling anyone, especially the lost, that there is no way they can get into Heaven is Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----'n them to H***!! How can you not see that??


 
I said God does the choosing, not us... otherwise the verses I quoted have no meaning... Before anyone has any "chance" of being Saved, God has to give them to Jesus John 6:44... Those are Jesus' words in that verse, not mine....

I happen to believe that the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity and is also, Perfect... I believe the Holy Spirit convicts the soul of the person to be saved Perfectly, with Perfect conviction there can not be any other outcome but a Saved person.

The Depravity of people will only seek anything that is not God, and by definition is totally against God.... So the nature of a Depraved person is to do anything but seek God...




jawja_peach said:


> The lost are just that LOST! They have no idea what you are talking about when you start telling them what all you listed above. WE CAN'T BUILD WALLS SO HIGH THE LOST CAN'T CROSS. YOU ARE BUILDING THIS WALL BY TELLING THEM THAT IF THEY DON'T FEEL A CERTAIN WAY OR WHAT HAVE YOU AS YOU SAID "No, I am saying those that are chosen know who they are... without any doubt..." So tell me friend, am I going to Heaven??


 
You call them walls... Those walls are from the Word of God... As I stated above... John 6:44 has to happen before anything else can...

Are you Saved?? If yes, then you are going to Heaven... I don't know if you are Saved for sure, I can look at your fruits and it will give me an idea... but I can't tell you for sure if you are Saved, only you would know that...



jawja_peach said:


> Do you also believe only a certain number of people are going to enter there in?? And again when thedeacon asked "Are you saying God might not have chosen me and I am wasting my time." You say he'll know...um, hmm... How will he know???


 
He knows whether he is Saved or not... I can not tell him if he is, no more then I can tell you... 



jawja_peach said:


> God did send His son for a select few. The Jews. They received Him NOT..THERE-FOR THAT OPENED THE DOOR TO THOSE LIKE US, LIKE ME, THE GENTILES...THE ONES THAT ACCEPTED CHRIST...AND WERE NO LONGER A GENTILE BUT A JEW INWARD. This is where the circumcision of the heart takes place (which was a Jewish physical custom that separated the two, Jews from the Gentiles)...the act of repentance and being saved, made "us" those "Select"...(which is now Spiritual instead of Physical.)
> 
> Like I've said on here before, Sir, we can agree to disagree, and don't feel like we're going to find common ground on this. I just know I DON'T WANT THE BLOOD OF ANYONE ON MY HANDS. And by telling someone who's a Biker, that was in the H***'s Angels, been in and out of jail, that they might as well not worry about their soul because they're Dam'd to an eternity in H*** since they weren't hand picked by God, and God just sent Jesus down to suffer for _NO REASON_. Did Jesus not come and bear the cross, bear our sins so that we could be saved?? Did God not turn His head as Christ gave up the Ghost?? God turned His head because of the Sin, as God can not look upon sin. Whose sin was it??? NOT THE JEW, WHICH ARE THE SELECT THAT YOU SPEAK OF SIR. BUT FOR US, THE GENTILE THAT ACCEPTED HIM PHYSICALLY THEN AND SPIRITUALLY NOW. So, with all that said I, being a Southern Lady, will step back and agree to disagree with you, Sir. And will pray that nothing said here will confuse as God is not the author of confusion...and I totally send this out with a humble spirit.


 
God may very well choose to call that biker you mentoned... That is God's descision, and nothing I do will effect what God will have happen.

Jesus died for the Saved.

So with that said... I agree, we will just have to disagree... and I say this also in a humble spirit.

DB BB


----------



## jawja_peach (Jan 12, 2009)

Big10point said:


> no bumbling and very well said.... spoken from the heart.



 Thank you. I hate getting on here and debate'n the Bible. So to an extent I will only go so far, ya know. I guess, I go as far as I can, then kick the dust off my boots, and Cowgirl Up.... Good post, but very debatable...


----------



## jawja_peach (Jan 12, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> If you are Saved, then you know you are Saved...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OMGosh.......gota get the kids from bus...but oh yeah, I'll be back in a few.


----------



## Big10point (Jan 12, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I have to disagree with you here... which will not come to most people surprise... It is called Depravity... I just happen to believe in Total Depravity, rather than partial... Once Saved, my Total Depravity was turned into Partial Depravtiy... Even though I am Saved, I am completely aware of my depravity... and have at times acted in accordance to the depraved nature... That I am not proud of and all I can do when that happens is ask for God's Mercy and Forgiveness.
> 
> db bb, is it even remotely possible that since God foreknew the end from the beginning and new in advance who His children were... that once He saw who was going to "love Him" in return (He first loved us) that He then said, i will make THOSE people My children...
> 
> ...


----------



## Randy (Jan 12, 2009)

It's just so easy when you take text out of context!


----------



## Randy (Jan 12, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Jesus died for the Saved.



No, Jesus died so you could be saved.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 12, 2009)

Big10point said:


> db bb, is it even remotely possible that since God foreknew the end from the beginning and new in advance who His children were... that once He saw who was going to "love Him" in return (He first loved us) that He then said, i will make THOSE people My children...
> 
> is that possible?


 
Yes it is possible, I can not say it isn't possible... In fact, I believe the Elect were chosen in the beginning... God knows who the Elect is...




Big10point said:


> also, if God is not a respector persons (Acts 10:34). wouldnt He be just that, if he hand picked His children?


 
It doesn't matter how "good" you are in the eyes of man, it only matters that you are Saved, if you are Saved, you will do good works in accordence to your Salvation...



Big10point said:


> also, if He did hand pick His children, why should anyone go out and preach the Gospel to all nations??if God has hand picked His children and they are going to come to Him no matter what... why does He need His other children to go sacrifice life and family to go win some souls?
> why do the missionairies need to go to China and India and risk their lives to save some souls? why doesnt God just bring them to Him without such a sacrifice by the "born again"??
> 
> again, i am asking b/c this is a doctrine i dont understand...


 
Because we are Commanded to do so... Do you know who is to be Saved next? Could be the next person you talk to about Christ, but that is up to God. If I had any idea who was the Elect but was not Saved yet then I would only seek them out... But I don't, so I witness to as many people as I can...

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 12, 2009)

Randy said:


> No, Jesus died so you could be saved.


 

Sorry... Jesus died for the Saved, or the ones that will be Saved... And we both know not everyone will be Saved..

DB BB


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 12, 2009)

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you will) but I've always  been under the assumption that according to the Christian Bible, Jesus:

1. Created everything that has been, is and will ever be.    I take this to mean that nothing will exist without Him making it.  (OK so far?)


2. He knows everything that has happened, is happening and will ever happen.  Meaning,  There are no surprises to Him.   (Still OK?)

So, would it be a reasonable illustration to say that God is like a writer and he wrote this book called "The Story of Everything".   This book has always existed in its completeness from before time (kinda whacky concept for me...) and on some page is the story of MY life.   He should be able to point out the line on the page where it either says:  "Ambush received the lord today and is promised a seat in Heaven." or "Ambush rejected the Lord and was thrown into the Pit of Eternal Suffering."

Remember, God is never surprised 'cause he knows everything.

Like in "Goldilocks".  The bears come home and, "Oh my gosh! Someone ate my porridge!"  But, we all know that the porridge is going to be eaten, furthermore we know that Goldilocks is sleeping in baby bears bed.  The bears will be surprised (as they always will be when they find her).   She will eat the porridge every time.  She HAS to.  And they will ALWAYS find her in baby bears bed.  They HAVE to because the story's already written.

Tell me where my analogy fails.


----------



## jawja_peach (Jan 12, 2009)

what..??? GOD HELP!!! JESUS CAME SO THAT THE LOST COULD BE SAVED FRIEND...NOT FOR THE SAVED...THE SAVED DO NOT NEED TO BE SAVED AGAIN...BUT THE LOST...IKN WHERE YOU GOT THAT, AND PROBABLY THOSE ON HERE WON'T EITHER..CAN'T WAIT TO SEE WHAT OTHERS SAY....


----------



## jawja_peach (Jan 12, 2009)

Big10point said:


> Double Barrel BB said:
> 
> 
> > I have to disagree with you here... which will not come to most people surprise... It is called Depravity... I just happen to believe in Total Depravity, rather than partial... Once Saved, my Total Depravity was turned into Partial Depravtiy... Even though I am Saved, I am completely aware of my depravity... and have at times acted in accordance to the depraved nature... That I am not proud of and all I can do when that happens is ask for God's Mercy and Forgiveness.
> ...


----------



## ToLog (Jan 12, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you will) but I've always  been under the assumption that according to the Christian Bible, Jesus:
> 
> 1. Created everything that has been, is and will ever be.    I take this to mean that nothing will exist without Him making it.  (OK so far?)
> 
> ...



hmmm?  because humans are an active part of the co-creation story, and the final chapter hasn't been written yet?

that is, it's in process of being written.......... if it's bad, then we get bailed out, (the Rapture and all), but ifs good, then we remain (or find, or come to) the Land of Milk and Honey, so to speak.

that kind of assumes that the final judgment occurs after all is said and done. that is, we get judged individually on how much we contributed to the positive final outcome.   which implies we're asleep until the Judgment........in my understandings.


----------



## jawja_peach (Jan 12, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Yes it is possible, I can not say it isn't possible... In fact, I believe the Elect were chosen in the beginning... God knows who the Elect is...
> 
> AGAIN, WHAT WOULD NEED BE TO GO OUT PEACHING?? WITNESSING...??? Can you imagine that actually sometimes the Saved say
> 
> ...



WHAT WOULD BE THE USE IN PREACHING..PREACHERS??? SURELY YOU HONESTLY CAN'T BELIEVE THIS??!! I MEAN, MY GOSH, SO YOUR SAYING THAT WE HAVE NO INFLUENCE ON THE LOST EITHER?? DERN. YOU KNOW THE BIBLE TEACHES US THAT SALVATION IS FREE TO THOSE THAT SEEK IT...IT DOES SAY THAT. NOT EXACT WORDING BUT IT DOES SAY THAT...AND, I'M SORRY BUT IF IT WEREN'T FOR A FRIEND OF MINE, WHO HAS GONE ON TO BE WITH THE LORD, I DON'T KNOW IF I'D BE SAVED TODAY..AND YES I AM... BUT FOR HER TO SEEK OUT AND TELL ME ABOUT THE LORD, INVITING ME TO CHURCH AND ASKING ME OVER AND OVER TO GO....SHE HAD AN INFLUENCE THAT OTHERS DIDN'T. I GOT SAVED ON THE SECOND SERVICE I WENT, ALONG WITH HER DAUGHTER AND DAUGHTER N LAW.. WE ALL THREE GOT SAVED THAT DAY...AND WOULD LOVE TO TELL ALL Y'ALL MY TESTIMONY...AND PROBABLY WILL SOON. BUT TO SAY THAT NONE OF US HELP SPREAD GOD WORD OR HELP LEADING THE LOST TO CHRIST, IS IDIOTIC...AND I'M REALLY TRYING TO STAY 'A SOUTHERN LADY' WHEN READING THIS GARBAGE CHALLENGES ME SO.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 12, 2009)

roothog said:


> hmmm?  because humans are an active part of the _co-creation story,_ and the final chapter hasn't been written yet?



That's sounds yummy.  What is it?


----------



## jawja_peach (Jan 12, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> No, I am saying those that are chosen know who they are... without any doubt...
> 
> DB BB



   God had a chosen people, Israel, the gentiles were not part of this until after Israel rejected Christ, then the wild olive branch was grafted in[us]...but Israel had a choice, just read this...Luke 13:34

34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
KJV      So he offered them all and they refused....John 1:11

11 He came unto his own , and his own received him not.
KJV   
      What about that his OWN, so they were his...but yet they wouldn't receive Him...

    So we were offered the opportunity and received of the same promise offered to Israel...Gal 3:26-4:1

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


KJV
     He came for the lost...Matt 18:11

11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
KJV

    and HIS will is that none should perish...2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance .
KJV

    Now bb how many is ALL???  His will is that NONE should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance...and this is what the BIBLE say if we do not repent...Luke 13:3-5

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish .

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish .
KJV

  SO you think a person cannot reject the Lords Offer....that goes completely against these scriptures.....

  GOD knows who will accept and who will reject, but has offered salvation to ALL.....Rom 12:3

3 , according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith .
KJV

   So I guess in your doctrine ALL does not mean ALL and EVERY does not mean EVERY????


----------



## reformedpastor (Jan 12, 2009)

Does "all" and "every" always mean all and every without exception?

Since this is a thread about God being in control I will add that God does control every thing to the smallest detail. This includes man who is free to act according to his nature. Whether born again or not. Passages like Romans 8:28 could be true if this were not true. The two extreme views of God's sovereignty is 1. God is in control of everything BUT man 2. God is the great puppet master and man is a robot. Both of these are wrong, they are with scriptural support. 

The right view and the view that the church has maintained until the last hundred or so years is that man is to believe that God is controlling everything in his life. This is called the the doctrine of God's providence. For some it is for their good and for the non-elect for ****ation but either way for God's glory. Yet God has not forced either to do anything. Man freely makes every choice. This is the great mystery. We believe this because the bible teaches this and we accept it by faith. 

Some Christians ignore those sovereignty passages and do their best to excuse them when they witness to folks. by doing this they make God into what they want Him to be. Not what He is. This is a violation of the First Commandment. They are well meaning I am sure but nevertheless wrong plus it is dangerous for those who accept this false god as Savior. We must be careful not to paint a picture of God that doesn't truly represent Him.


----------



## jawja_peach (Jan 12, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Sorry... Jesus died for the Saved, or the ones that will be Saved... And we both know not everyone will be Saved..
> 
> DB BB



   What about these??? John 3:17-18

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved .

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
KJV

  and this....Matt 18:11

11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
KJV

  He CAME for the lost....


----------



## christianhunter (Jan 12, 2009)

Complete and total control,even with our free will,he is in Total control.HE KNEW the outcome of everything,before the foundation of the world.


----------



## jawja_peach (Jan 12, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> Does "all" and "every" always mean all and every without exception?



 Not by everyones definition.....IF people were born saved or born lost with no chance for salvation, What is the reason to preach, if faith comes by hearing, and hearing by  the word of God, and how can they hear without a preacher....

    1 Cor 1:21

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.KJV

     IF people were saved by being born that way there would be no need for preaching....


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 12, 2009)

jawja_peach said:


> what..??? GOD HELP!!! JESUS CAME SO THAT THE LOST COULD BE SAVED FRIEND...NOT FOR THE SAVED...THE SAVED DO NOT NEED TO BE SAVED AGAIN...BUT THE LOST...IKN WHERE YOU GOT THAT, AND PROBABLY THOSE ON HERE WON'T EITHER..CAN'T WAIT TO SEE WHAT OTHERS SAY....


 

Just so you know, if you don't already.. using ALL CAPS on the internet is like you are YELLING at people... and People tend to not respond well to yelling...

So I guess every lost person will be Saved?

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 12, 2009)

jawja_peach said:


> WHAT WOULD BE THE USE IN PREACHING..PREACHERS??? SURELY YOU HONESTLY CAN'T BELIEVE THIS??!! I MEAN, MY GOSH, SO YOUR SAYING THAT WE HAVE NO INFLUENCE ON THE LOST EITHER?? DERN. YOU KNOW THE BIBLE TEACHES US THAT SALVATION IS FREE TO THOSE THAT SEEK IT...IT DOES SAY THAT. NOT EXACT WORDING BUT IT DOES SAY THAT...AND, I'M SORRY BUT IF IT WEREN'T FOR A FRIEND OF MINE, WHO HAS GONE ON TO BE WITH THE LORD, I DON'T KNOW IF I'D BE SAVED TODAY..AND YES I AM... BUT FOR HER TO SEEK OUT AND TELL ME ABOUT THE LORD, INVITING ME TO CHURCH AND ASKING ME OVER AND OVER TO GO....SHE HAD AN INFLUENCE THAT OTHERS DIDN'T. I GOT SAVED ON THE SECOND SERVICE I WENT, ALONG WITH HER DAUGHTER AND DAUGHTER N LAW.. WE ALL THREE GOT SAVED THAT DAY...AND WOULD LOVE TO TELL ALL Y'ALL MY TESTIMONY...AND PROBABLY WILL SOON. BUT TO SAY THAT NONE OF US HELP SPREAD GOD WORD OR HELP LEADING THE LOST TO CHRIST, IS IDIOTIC...AND I'M REALLY TRYING TO STAY 'A SOUTHERN LADY' WHEN READING THIS GARBAGE CHALLENGES ME SO.


 
They have to hear The Word somehow? right?  I don't take any credit for anyone that has been Saved that I have witnessed to... I give that Glory to God...

God put me on in the places to witness to the people I have witnessed to... Just like He put your Friend in the place to witness to you...

So now all that I say is GARBAGE? Well all I have to say is how nice "A Southern Lady" you must be...

DB BB


----------



## jawja_peach (Jan 12, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> So I guess every lost person will be Saved?
> 
> DB BB



 No, but they have a choice just like Israel had a choice...


----------



## Big10point (Jan 12, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> Complete and total control,even with our free will,he is in Total control.HE KNEW the outcome of everything,before the foundation of the world.



so that means we are all robots and have no control over our actions or anything?   a parent wouldnt want their kids to be robots and to control them 100%.  if God controls our free will, would it still be called "free will"???

i am really trying guys to understand your osas.  i dont see where believing in osas will benefit the Christian in any way.  to me it may even give me a false sense of security. i am not saying that Jesus does not have enough power to save us...  "with God all things are possible", but i just dont see it...

The Jews... sorry Jewish people (politcally correct) rejected Christ.  Jesus told them before he died that God's chosen people would see 1 more generation (40 years) then Jeru would be destroyed... and it was in 70ad.

are the Jewish people osas too? they were God's chosen...  does that osas extend to them also?  there are verses in the Bible for and against osas... i love the dialogue tho...


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 12, 2009)

jawja_peach said:


> So I guess in your doctrine ALL does not mean ALL and EVERY does not mean EVERY????


 
not my doctorine... it is Bible...

DB BB


----------



## jawja_peach (Jan 12, 2009)

So now all that I say is GARBAGE? Well all I have to say is how nice "A Southern Lady" you must be...

DB BB

I am just that, but even a 
Southern Bell can get a lil offended too ya know... But truly passed it... & I apologize for being so rude.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 12, 2009)

Big10point said:


> so that means we are all robots and have no control over our actions or anything? a parent wouldnt want their kids to be robots and to control them 100%. if God controls our free will, would it still be called "free will"???
> 
> i am really trying guys to understand your osas. i dont see where beieving in osas will benefit the Christian in any way. to me it may even give me a false sense of security. i am not saying that Jesus does not have enough power to save us... "with God all things are possible", but i just dont see it...
> 
> ...


 

No free will in Salvation... That is what I believe...

In everyday life... yeah, I believe we have Freewill, but God already knows what we are going to do, but He doesn't make us do it... I believe that is how you are in and out of the will of God, after Salvation... God will bring you back into His Will... Just depends on what it might take to do that... just a nudge, or a swift kick in the rear end...

DB BB


----------



## jawja_peach (Jan 12, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> not my doctorine... it is Bible...
> 
> DB BB



Where?

And too, No more all caps I will underline, caps was just easier....


----------



## farmasis (Jan 12, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> No, I am saying those that are chosen know who they are... without any doubt...
> 
> DB BB


 

What if you are chosen, and you do not respond?


----------



## Randy (Jan 12, 2009)

I can see where DBBB and even Ambush could get to where they are.

If a person believes the verse that says God knows the end from the begining to mean that in the begining He knew everything that was ever going to happen every decission that every person was going to make then yes He did already know who was going to be saved and who was going to follow Him.

Personally I do not believe the verse means that He was there in the begining and He will be here till the end and as such He knows everything that happens, as it happens, till the end.  He also knows at some point He will end it.  I think He may not even know exactly when He will have enough of our destruction of His creation but knows He can't put up with it forever.

I base this belief on the very begining.  If God knew even before there was man, that when He put man here that man was going to sin then that would mean He created sin.  I believe he put man here with free will to make his own decissions.  And when He put them here and told man not to eat of the fruit of knowlege, He hoped they would not do it.  But man being what he is he had to have it his way instead of doing what God The Father said.  Just like most children.

We have free will.  We can choose to follow God or not.  He hopes we will but He gave us the choice.  He does not know what choice we will make until we do.

Now if you believe He does then in fact we have no choice.  It has been decided before we are born.  And if you think He knew that then He is not the caring God I believe in because He put a person here knowing full well that person was going to....

That is not the loving God I know.


----------



## farmasis (Jan 12, 2009)

29.For whom he did foreknow, 

The foreknowledge of God. Those he knew would accept him.


----------



## farmasis (Jan 12, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Sorry... Jesus died for the Saved, or the ones that will be Saved... And we both know not everyone will be Saved..
> 
> DB BB


 
Christ said he came to seek what was lost.


10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. (Luke 19)

Christ died for all!!

*1 Timothy 2:3* For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For [there] [is] one God and one Mediator between God and men, [the] Man Christ Jesus, 6 who *gave Himself a ransom for all*, to be testified in due time.

*1 Timothy 4:10* For to this [end] we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is [the] *Savior of all men*, especially of those who believe.

*2 Peter 3:9* The Lord is not slack concerning [His] promise, as some count 
slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, *not willing that any should perish* but that all should come to repentance.

*1 John 2:2* And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the *whole world*.

*Isaiah 53:6* All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And *the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all*.

*Hebrews 2:9* But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might *taste death for everyone*.

*2 Corinthians 5:14* For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and *He died for all*, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 12, 2009)

Randy said:


> I can see where DBBB and even Ambush could get to where they are.
> 
> If a person believes the verse that says God knows the end from the begining to mean that in the begining He knew everything that was ever going to happen every decission that every person was going to make then yes He did already know who was going to be saved and who was going to follow Him.
> 
> ...



That God isn't even omniscient.   An all knowing god can't EVER be surprised by anything you do.


----------



## reformedpastor (Jan 12, 2009)

jawja_peach said:


> Not by everyones definition.....IF people were born saved or born lost with no chance for salvation, What is the reason to preach, if faith comes by hearing, and hearing by  the word of God, and how can they hear without a preacher....
> 
> 1 Cor 1:21
> 
> ...



I was thinking about the way the bible uses figures of speech not person definitions. 

Not sure where your going with these verses but if you are using them the way I think you are I don't think you understand my post. 

But, here are a few comments about the verses you used. They in no way contradict God's complete sovereignty or man's will. They only point out that God uses means to bring His elect to Christ. He does this by the preaching of the gospel. He has ordained the foolishness of preaching to call His elect and to harden the non elect. Read Isaiah 55  and notice what he says about the word of God, it never returns without doing what it is sent out to accomplish. 

Yet God is not confined to using ordinary means. John the Baptist was regenerated in the womb of his mother.


----------



## jawja_peach (Jan 12, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Christ died for all!!




 Farmisis, they don't believe ALL means ALL.......it has a differant meaning, like a FEW....  

 If I am Lost because God chose for me to be that would not be a just GOD, and this would not be true...Rom 2:11

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
KJV


 If some were  lost and couldn't be saved that would mean GOD had respect of persons.....


----------



## Randy (Jan 12, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> That God isn't even omniscient.   An all knowing god can't EVER be surprised by anything you do.



Agree.  By "omniscient" I believe that means he knows all or everything that is happening at a given time.  Ie: He knows you are there and I am here and he also hears the prayers of all the little children saying their prayers as we type.

As was noted in another thread, if God knows all before it happened, he would not have greived when he saw the wickedness in the world before he flooded it.  He would have already known that was going to happen and would have found no need to grieve.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 12, 2009)

Randy said:


> Agree.  By "omniscient" I believe that means he knows all or everything that is happening_ at a given time._  Ie: He knows you are there and I am here and he also hears the prayers of all the little children saying their prayers as we type.
> 
> As was noted in another thread, if God knows all before it happened, he would not have greived when he saw the wickedness in the world before he flooded it.  He would have already known that was going to happen and would have found no need to grieve.




So he doesn't know the future?


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 13, 2009)

jawja_peach said:


> Where?
> 
> And too, No more all caps I will underline, caps was just easier....


 
This may explain it better than I can... Sometimes I feel as though I don't convey my belief clearly... Also from this link you can view the other Doctorines of Grace or TULIP as some refer to them...

This is the L in TULIP....

http://contemporarycalvinist.blogspot.com/2007/11/tiptoeing-through-tulips-part-3-limited.html

*Limited Atonement
*This seems to be the biggest stumbling block to those who resist the teachings of Calvinism. Many people think that in order for God to be "fair" -- naturally, they are looking at fairness from a human perspective -- Christ must have died for every single person. After all, John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." And, of course, there's 1st John 2:2: "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." 

When it comes to limited (or, more accurately, particular or definite) atonement, God's word is quite clear on the subject. In Matthew 20:28 and Mark 10:45 we read that Christ gave his life as a "ransom for many." In John 10:11-15 Jesus talks about laying down his life "for the sheep." Contrast that with Matthew 25:32-33, where we see the shepherd separating "the sheep from the goats."

Jesus continues with this analogy in John 10:24-27: 

So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."
Still, we cannot get around the fact that the Bible does teach that Jesus did, in a sense, lay down his life for the world. The answer, as usual, lies in the context.

Paul writes in 1st Timothy 4:10 that Christ is "the savior of all people, especially of those who believe." Now, we know that he isn't the "savior of all people" in the same sense that he is the savior of the elect. If that were the case, then all people would be saved, and given the context of what scripture has to say about the eternal judgment of the wicked, we know that can't be what Paul meant. Rather, Christ is the savior of all people in that by saving some, humanity itself has been saved from complete destruction.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_SbqLWX6CpYA/RzS1vwci8pI/AAAAAAAAAaU/e7Yzvcktl-o/s1600-h/tulips3.jpgAnother way to look at limited atonement is to consider what the term "propitiation" means in 1st John 2:2. It means to satisfy God's demands. God demands perfection, something sinful man can never hope to achieve. Jesus Christ, however, lived a perfect life and suffered our punishment on the cross, thereby satisfying God's holy justice. Our debt has been paid. To assume that Christ also paid the debt of those who ultimately end up in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- is to make God out to be unjust as one who punishes the same sins twice.

If we are to be honest, we will agree that both Calvinists and Arminians limit Christ's atonement in some way. Did Jesus die for Satan and his demons? Certainly not. The atonement is at least limited to human beings. Do all people eventually end up in heaven? Again, no. There is no disputing the fact that the effects of the atonement do not extend to all people in the same way.

Here is where we differ: Arminians limit the effectiveness of the atonement in that they believe it merely made salvation possible for sinners. Since they deny the Calvinist view of total depravity, unconditional election, and irresistible grace, they are forced to admit that there is the theoretical possibility that not one person would ever "accept Christ as savior." After all, if they wish to remain consistent in holding to the concept of "free will," then they must deny that God would give certain people the extra grace needed that would enable us to do what scripture says we cannot do on our own (Romans 7:18).

Calvinists, on the other hand, limit the scope of Christ's atonement rather than its effectiveness. We would agree with Arminians that his death on the cross was sufficient to cover the sins of all. There certainly would not have been a need to have his suffering increased accordingly in order to cover the sins of each and every person. But that isn't how the atonement was designed. We believe that the atonement accomplished exactly what it was supposed to do by actually securing the salvation of all those for whom it was intended (i.e., the elect). "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14).

To say that God intended to save everyone, but, despite his best intentions, was unable to accomplish that goal, is to make God into something less than the sovereign, all-powerful Creator that he is. How much more God-glorifying it is to say, without hesitation or qualification, that he did _exactly_ what he set out to do!


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 13, 2009)

farmasis said:


> What if you are chosen, and you do not respond?


 

That is the thing Brother... I don't believe you can resist the Call... Why do I believe this? Because I believe that the Holy Spirit always convicts a person Perfectly... I don't see any other out come from Perfect conviction than a Saved Soul... I know you and others disagree, but this is my belief...

DB BB


----------



## Randy (Jan 13, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> So he doesn't know the future?



While he can and does control it at some points I believe he allows man free will to determine his future and God does not know what man will choose.  Again this is my belief.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 13, 2009)

jawja_peach said:


> Farmisis, they don't believe ALL means ALL.......it has a differant meaning, like a FEW....
> 
> If I am Lost because God chose for me to be that would not be a just GOD, and this would not be true...Rom 2:11
> 
> ...


 
I see it as this:

Actually it means the exact opposite... It means God doesn't care what we have done in our past, if He wants to Save us then He is going to Save us, it doesn't matter if it was Good or Evil in our past...

In the world's eyes a person could be the best person in the world, who does tons of good deeds in the eyes of the world... But unless they are Saved, they will still go to he11. God may choose to Save them, but then again God may choose not to, that decision is up to God.

That is what is meant by these verses: in particular the ones that i have highlighted in Blue

Romans 9 (underlining is my emphasis)
9.For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 
10.And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one , even by our father Isaac; 
11.(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12.It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 
13.As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14.What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15.For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16.So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17.For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 
18.Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19.Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 
20.Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 
21.Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 
22.What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 
23.And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 
24.Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


I know you probably do not agree with me, and that is fine, you have your beliefs and I have mine... We have to remember that not everyone on here will agree with our own personal beliefs...

I feel as though I may have offended you in some of my earlier posts, I just want you to know that was not my intention... Please forgive me.

God Bless,
DB BB


----------



## Big10point (Jan 13, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> No free will in Salvation... That is what I believe...
> 
> In everyday life... yeah, I believe we have Freewill, but God already knows what we are going to do, but He doesn't make us do it... I believe that is how you are in and out of the will of God, after Salvation... God will bring you back into His Will... Just depends on what it might take to do that... just a nudge, or a swift kick in the rear end...
> 
> DB BB



i totally agree that He knows it all.  we are in agreement there... but if He is gonna control us and we have no say so, why did He spend 1500 years writing a Bible with 1500 pages, 31,000 words, 66 books by 40 writers? just to tell us that we are His children and theres nothing we can do about it? why does he scourge us if we're guaranteed Heaven?  If Heaven is a given, why should He punish us...? just let us alone in this world and accept us into Heaven when we die...

isn't it possible that since He sees the end from the beginning, that He accepts us after He sees that we are going to love Him in return? if He hand picks His children and they have no say so in the matter, then why should He punish the others who are not His children? it wasnt their fault for not loving God, it would be His doing... b/c He hand picked them.... i am just asking pls dont stone me...


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 13, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Christ said he came to seek what was lost.
> 
> 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. (Luke 19)
> 
> ...


 

I think you will agree at some point in this world, everyone was Lost.. Right?

I think we can also agree that not everyone will be Saved... Right?

If we agree on the 2 statements above... Why would Jesus's Sacrifice be for those that would never be Saved?



> To say that God intended to save everyone, but, despite his best intentions, was unable to accomplish that goal, is to make God into something less than the sovereign, all-powerful Creator that he is. How much more God-glorifying it is to say, without hesitation or qualification, that he did _exactly_ what he set out to do!


 
DB BB


----------



## reformedpastor (Jan 13, 2009)

jawja_peach said:


> Farmisis, they don't believe ALL means ALL.......it has a differant meaning, like a FEW....
> 
> If I am Lost because God chose for me to be that would not be a just GOD, and this would not be true...Rom 2:11
> 
> ...





This isn't true. We or I believe believe the context dictates the extent of all and every. 

We talk this way when we say "everybody __________". Or "all day we _____________". Hardly ever do we mean "all" or "everybody". it a good thing we understand figures of speech when we talk to folks and it would be better if we understood them when we find them in scripture.


Hope this helps you understand the other side.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 13, 2009)

Big10point said:


> i totally agree that He knows it all. we are in agreement there... but if He is gonna control us and we have no say so, why did He spend 1500 years writing a Bible with 1500 pages, 31,000 words, 66 books by 40 writers?


 
I am not sure... a record of history, a Book to live our lives by... That is one of my questions when I get to Heaven.. God why did it take so many words to convey your Love to us(The Saved)?



Big10point said:


> just to tell us that we are His children and theres nothing we can do about it?


 
Very possible... could it also be just to tell us how much He loves us?



Big10point said:


> why does he scourge us if we're guaranteed Heaven?


 
Because we are not always in the Will of God... God gives us guidelines and He expects us to follow those guidelines...



Big10point said:


> If Heaven is a given, why should He punish us...?


 
I don't mean to answer your question with a question but I feel as though I have to.... Why did He allow Satan to punish Job?



Big10point said:


> just let us alone in this world and accept us into Heaven when we die...


 
Our trials and tribulations are what make us who we are, and makes our testimony to others possibly more useful to God...



Big10point said:


> isn't it possible that since He sees the end from the beginning, that He accepts us after He sees that we are going to love Him in return?


 
Possible... I can not say it isn't possible...



Big10point said:


> if He hand picks His children and they have no say so in the matter, then why should He punish the others who are not His children?


 
Who better to make that decision than God? We are all His creation the Lost and Saved alike... We are his to do with as He pleases... Who are we to say God you can't do that?



Big10point said:


> it wasnt their fault for not loving God, it would be His doing... b/c He hand picked them.... i am just asking pls dont stone me...


 
Actually it would be Adam's doing... He is the one that brought Sin into the world, and we are all decendents of Adam...



Big10point said:


> i am just asking pls dont stone me...


 
Please ask away... I will try to answer your questions... but I do not have this all figured out either... and most likely will not ever figure it our completely... unless God sees fit to grant me the understanding...

DB BB


----------



## Randy (Jan 13, 2009)

Must be nice to feel as though you are a chosen one?

But it feels a lot better knowing that I can accept His blood and not have to hope I  was chosen.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 13, 2009)

Randy said:


> Must be nice to feel as though you are a chosen one?
> 
> But it feels a lot better knowing that I can accept His blood and not have to hope I was chosen.


 

Randy,

If you are Saved, you will know it... I don't feel as though I am a Chosen one... I know I am a chosen one, a chosen child of God... not by my own merits, only by the Grace of God through the Sacrifice of Jesus! God had mercy on my soul!

it feels better??? To believe that you have some sort of power over God? Because that is what seems to be the bottom line of what you are saying...

DB BB


----------



## Randy (Jan 13, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Randy,
> 
> If you are Saved, you will know it... I don't feel as though I am a Chosen one... I know I am a chosen one, a chosen child of God... not by my own merits, only by the Grace of God through the Sacrifice of Jesus! God had mercy on my soul!
> 
> ...


No. I have no power over God.  He sent His son here to offer me the chance to be forgiven for my sins and spend my eternal life with him.   I was born lost and a sinner  but through His grace I was saved by accepting His offer.

I was not born saved/chosen.


----------



## reformedpastor (Jan 13, 2009)

Guy's here's some verses to chew on.

2 Peter 1:10-11  10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;  11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

This contains both sides to this discussion. His sovereignty in choosing and our responsibility to believe. 

As far as why the bible was written. It was written because man need God's wisdom and guidance in knowing how to glorify God. Man needed this before his fall and even more after it. We are dependent upon God to tell us right and wrong, good and evil,.............etc. In all of life we are to bring Him glory and adoration not because he has done something for us though this is a good reason but because He is God. He is infinite, eternal, unchangeable in His being, wisdom, power and glory, goodness, love, mercy and justice. He is God. There is no one or nothing like Him. 


The bible was written so man could glorify God and the only way man can achieve this is by first believing in Christ  and then walking according to His word, loving Him and the brethren by keeping His commandments.

It really isn't hard if we let the bible speak, say what it says. Preachers, seminaries, and well meaning Christians have made more difficult than it is.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 13, 2009)

Randy said:


> No. I have no power over God. He sent His son here to offer me the chance to be forgiven for my sins and spend my eternal life with him. I was born lost and a sinner but through His grace I was saved by accepting His offer.
> 
> I was not born saved/chosen.


 
Good to know that you don't think you have power over God...

DB BB


----------



## reformedpastor (Jan 13, 2009)

Randy said:


> No. I have no power over God.  He sent His son here to offer me the chance to be forgiven for my sins and spend my eternal life with him.   I was born lost and a sinner  but through His grace I was saved by accepting His offer.
> 
> I was not born saved/chosen.




True, you were born a sinner but God's grace would not be grace if it rested on your work. It grace because He choose you when you didn't deserve it and saved in good time to a vessel of honor for His name sake. This is awesome grace. 

John 15:16   16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.


Of course this verse applies directly to the Apostles. But there is application for us too, this verse revels that God elects all His children to bear good fruit in each of our various callings and supplies us with all we need to accomplish this.


----------



## Big10point (Jan 13, 2009)

lets say that a rich old man who is very godly and saved has 1 million dollars and 10 children. 5 of those 10 kids truly loved, honored and obeyed their father while the other 5 rebelled their whole lives.  proved over and over they did not care 2 cents about their dad. all 10 kids knew their dad was their father but 5 rejected him and 5 loved him with all of their hearts.  it is the dad's right and privelage to die and leave the 1 million dollars to just the 5 kids who loved him and not the 5 who did not love him.  correct? the dad still loves all 10 kids, but the 5 who rejected him are not "worthy" of his inheritance...  

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man

its not like he doesnt love them all... right? he does love them all but they are all not worthy of the inheritance? doesnt the parable of the prodigal son, confirm this?

why is our Father any different?


----------



## earl (Jan 13, 2009)

If he is a father who truly loves his children he will divide equally. IMHO


----------



## 1BigBuckDown (Jan 13, 2009)

earl said:


> If he is a father who truly loves his children he will divide equally. IMHO



i dont agree...i have kids and if they dont return the love that i have for them... they get nothing. i will always love my kids no matter what but they have to return it. i will not reward my kids for disobedience and lack of returned love.


----------



## pigpen1 (Jan 13, 2009)

QUOTE=Randy;3044494]No. I have no power over God.  He sent His son here to offer me the chance to be forgiven for my sins and spend my eternal life with him.   I was born lost and a sinner  but through His grace I was saved by accepting His offer.

I was not born saved/chosen.[/QUOTE]

AMEN


----------



## Big10point (Jan 13, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I am not sure... a record of history, a Book to live our lives by... That is one of my questions when I get to Heaven.. God why did it take so many words to convey your Love to us(The Saved)?
> 
> 
> if the angels in heaven were cast out of Heaven (satan and his cronies), for rebelling against God, how can a sinful human be secure from not rebelling also?  the angels cast out (now demons) were "chosen" by God or else they wouldnt have ever made it to Heaven...  but they rebelled like most men and cast out...


----------



## farmasis (Jan 13, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I think you will agree at some point in this world, everyone was Lost.. Right?
> 
> I think we can also agree that not everyone will be Saved... Right?
> 
> If we agree on the 2 statements above... Why would Jesus's Sacrifice be for those that would never be Saved?


 
Because he loves us all. 
God's will is to _have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"_ (1 Timothy 2:4) and that _any should perish but that all should come to repentance" _(2 Peter 3:9). 

Now, look at the opposite.

Everyone was lost.
Not everyone will be saved.
So why did Christ come to die?

The Bible says _he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only (the ones saved) but also for the sins of the whole world (the ones unsaved)" _(1 John 2:2). (added by me)

Does all mean all? Then let me ask, if all has sinned?
Because just as we were all born into sin and the 
_offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life_ (Romans 5:18). 

This is a direct comparision. All born into sin, the gift of salvation available for all. If all means few, then few are under the curse of sin.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

Why would God suffer the cruelty of the cross if he had already handpicked whom he would save already?
If he predestined by Calvin's interpretation, then he also justified them also. So why die? There is no penalty needed to be propetiated for.

God provided the means of the blood to be shed for all sins of the whole entire, every person, complete world. This is in scriptures over and over. No, not all will be saved. Jesus said narrow is the way and few find it. Great is the way to destruction. Most people will reject Jesus.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 13, 2009)

Big10point said:


> lets say that a rich old man who is very godly and saved has 1 million dollars and 10 children. 5 of those 10 kids truly loved, honored and obeyed their father while the other 5 rebelled their whole lives. proved over and over they did not care 2 cents about their dad. all 10 kids knew their dad was their father but 5 rejected him and 5 loved him with all of their hearts. it is the dad's right and privelage to die and leave the 1 million dollars to just the 5 kids who loved him and not the 5 who did not love him. correct? the dad still loves all 10 kids, but the 5 who rejected him are not "worthy" of his inheritance...
> 
> Luke 21:36
> Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man
> ...


 

When you get down to it... None of us are Worthy of God's Love... We all deserve to burn...

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Jan 13, 2009)

Big10point said:


> if the angels in heaven were cast out of Heaven (satan and his cronies), for rebelling against God, how can a sinful human be secure from not rebelling also? the angels cast out (now demons) were "chosen" by God or else they wouldnt have ever made it to Heaven... but they rebelled like most men and cast out...


 

Angels don't have Souls... Like us...

Are you talking about once in Heaven or down here on earth?

If in Heaven... There will be no sin, so we will not be influenced by sin...

If on Earth... Even after being Saved, I have rebelled against God's will for my life... it usually didn't last long, before I realized that it is futile to fight against God... Sometimes it takes a nudge, and other times God has put me flat on my back...

DB BB


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 15, 2009)

Yes, God is in complete control over everything or He is no god at all and not worthy of worship.


----------

