# The "empty tomb" that all Christianity revolves around? The plot thickens!



## oldfella1962 (Jun 30, 2022)

Wow this theory really blows my mind, but here it is: Doctor Bart Ehrman - religious historian or something like that - posits that while researching Roman crucifixion procedures Dr. Ehrman discovered that Jesus would not have had a proper burial in a tomb or otherwise.  If you did something bad enough to be crucified (treasonous crimes most likely) your body would be left on the cross to decompose, as a deterrent to anybody thinking about committing similar crimes. Common criminals wouldn't be crucified. Could Pontious Pilate have been willing or even able to make an exception just for Jesus? Not very likely. 
Thus, Jesus body would not be taken anywhere for burial preparation then placed in a tomb. Could it have been stolen off the cross? Again, not likely.

Also "the empty tomb" that signifies that Jesus was resurrected would not be the big "selling point" of anybody trying to spread the word about the divinity of their savior. Showing people an empty tomb would only stir up questions like maybe Jesus body was stolen, or they have the wrong tomb, or his followers are crazy, or whatever. The reason for an empty tomb being Jesus went up to heaven wouldn't make sense or seem believable. 

Anyway, research Doctor Bart Ehrman for more details. The guy is calm, rational, and dedicated to finding the facts as best he can.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 30, 2022)

funny... all those 3000 plus people 50 days later believed that He had risen from the grave....


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## bullethead (Jun 30, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> funny... all those 3000 plus people 50 days later believed that He had risen from the grave....


Where can we learn more about these 3000+ people and their versions of what they saw?


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## stringmusic (Jun 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Wow this theory really blows my mind, but here it is: Doctor Bart Ehrman - religious historian or something like that - posits that while researching Roman crucifixion procedures Dr. Ehrman discovered that Jesus would not have had a proper burial in a tomb or otherwise.  If you did something bad enough to be crucified (treasonous crimes most likely) your body would be left on the cross to decompose, as a deterrent to anybody thinking about committing similar crimes. Common criminals wouldn't be crucified. Could Pontious Pilate have been willing or even able to make an exception just for Jesus? Not very likely.
> Thus, Jesus body would not be taken anywhere for burial preparation then placed in a tomb. Could it have been stolen off the cross? Again, not likely.
> 
> Also "the empty tomb" that signifies that Jesus was resurrected would not be the big "selling point" of anybody trying to spread the word about the divinity of their savior. Showing people an empty tomb would only stir up questions like maybe Jesus body was stolen, or they have the wrong tomb, or his followers are crazy, or whatever. The reason for an empty tomb being Jesus went up to heaven wouldn't make sense or seem believable.
> ...


It was Jewish law to not let the body of someone who was crucified to hang overnight.


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## stringmusic (Jun 30, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Where can we learn more about these 3000+ people and their versions of what they saw?


Acts 2


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## bullethead (Jun 30, 2022)

stringmusic said:


> Acts 2


47 verses where nobody gives their thoughts and astonishment about they saw. Riveting. 3000 people silent about it.
Like I asked earlier, where can we learn more about these people and their versions of what they saw?

Id like to hear from the non Jews who witnessed it, scholars, educated, businessmen, middle class, the poor. Where is their testimony?


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 30, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> funny... all those 3000 plus people 50 days later believed that He had risen from the grave....



3,000 people? Where do you get that number?   Regardless, 2,000 years later many millions believe it. Millions of people believe in any number of deities in 2022.

Speaking of believing in a resurrection, Mathew 27 takes it to a whole - nuther - level!   When Jesus died on the cross there was an earthquake, and tombs were opened up and saints came alive and went out among the people.    Okay, I get that each of the four gospels differ some, but wouldn't long dead saints coming back to life be kind of a big deal? If there were four different accounts of resurrected saints I could understand that, but only a couple of sentences in only one of the gospels? 

Also wouldn't a significant number of resurrected people be worthy of at least one mention by sources outside the Bible writers?


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 30, 2022)

bullethead said:


> 47 verses where nobody gives their thoughts and astonishment about they saw. Riveting. 3000 people silent about it.
> Like I asked earlier, where can we learn more about these people and their versions of what they saw?
> 
> Id like to hear from the non Jews who witnessed it, scholars, educated, businessmen, middle class, the poor. Where is their testimony?



Maybe the accounts of their testimony were thrown out/burned up when the official version of the Bible was compiled!


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## bullethead (Jun 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Maybe the accounts of their testimony were thrown out/burned up when the official version of the Bible was compiled!


Lots of possibilities.  K. I. S. S. Usually wins out.


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## kmh1031 (Jun 30, 2022)

The Bible account shows different from the comment, “theory” of Dr Ehrman of what happened to Jesus body….

A man, named Joseph from the city of Arimathea, “a rich man” and reputable member of the Sanhedrin, is also present at the execution. (Matthew 27:57) 

He is described as “a good and righteous man,” who is “waiting for the Kingdom of God.” In fact, as “a disciple of Jesus but a secret one because of his fear of the Jews,” he did not support the court’s judgment of Jesus. (Luke 23:50; Mark 15:43; John 19:38) 

Joseph takes courage and asks Pilate for Jesus’ body. Pilate summons the army officer in charge, who confirms that Jesus is dead and Pilate grants Joseph’s request.

Joseph buys clean, fine linen and takes Jesus’ body down from the stake. He wraps the corpse in the linen in preparation for burial. 

Nicodemus, “who had come to Jesus in the night the first time,” helps with the preparation. (John 19:39) He brings about a hundred Roman pounds  of a costly mixture of myrrh and aloes. 

Jesus’ body is wrapped in bandages containing these spices, according to the Jews’ burial custom.

Joseph owns an unused tomb carved in rock nearby, and Jesus’ body is laid in it. Then a large stone is rolled in front of the tomb.


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## jrickman (Jun 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Could Pontious Pilate have been willing or even able to make an exception just for Jesus?



Given that all accounts say he was willing to pardon Jesus (as was customary during Passover) until the crowd moved him otherwise, I'd say yeah.


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## Spotlite (Jun 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Wow this theory really blows my mind, but here it is: Doctor Bart Ehrman - religious historian or something like that - posits that while researching Roman crucifixion procedures Dr. Ehrman discovered that Jesus would not have had a proper burial in a tomb or otherwise.  If you did something bad enough to be crucified (treasonous crimes most likely) your body would be left on the cross to decompose, as a deterrent to anybody thinking about committing similar crimes. Common criminals wouldn't be crucified. Could Pontious Pilate have been willing or even able to make an exception just for Jesus? Not very likely.
> Thus, Jesus body would not be taken anywhere for burial preparation then placed in a tomb. Could it have been stolen off the cross? Again, not likely.
> 
> Also "the empty tomb" that signifies that Jesus was resurrected would not be the big "selling point" of anybody trying to spread the word about the divinity of their savior. Showing people an empty tomb would only stir up questions like maybe Jesus body was stolen, or they have the wrong tomb, or his followers are crazy, or whatever. The reason for an empty tomb being Jesus went up to heaven wouldn't make sense or seem believable.
> ...


 A deeper research reveals that ole Bart is just an atheist wanna be with biased research. There’s just as many educated with papers pro Jesus men out there.


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## buckpasser (Jun 30, 2022)

I smell something cooking!  Yep, it’s another nothing-burger from the strangely God obsessed athiests!


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## Spotlite (Jun 30, 2022)

A little goal posts moving contradictory insecurity from the guy that’s dedicated to finding facts with his “not really” right or wrong statements ? 

“Ehrman insists that we should not use terms like “heresy”or “orthodoxy” because that implies that somebody is really right and somebody is really wrong, and historians cannot make such judgments. These terms should be avoided because they are “value-laden” Indeed, he says, “the historian has no access…to what is right in the eyes of God”

Old fella you gotta do better than this cat for facts about the Bible.


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## Spotlite (Jun 30, 2022)

bullethead said:


> 47 verses where nobody gives their thoughts and astonishment about they saw. Riveting. 3000 people silent about it.
> Like I asked earlier, where can we learn more about these people and their versions of what they saw?
> 
> Id like to hear from the non Jews who witnessed it, scholars, educated, businessmen, middle class, the poor. Where is their testimony?


It was just stated recently on here by a non believer that only 12 people could read back then……why write?

On a serious note, the “for Jesus” crowd wasn’t considered “world changing large” It was only a 3 year ministry. Who’d a thunk that Jesus would have had an impact on the works as it unfolded?

Today, who’s writing about the life of the guy standing on the corner with a honk for Jesus sign?


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 30, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> A little goal posts moving contradictory insecurity from the guy that’s dedicated to finding facts with his “not really” right or wrong statements ?
> 
> “Ehrman insists that we should not use terms like “heresy”or “orthodoxy” because that implies that somebody is really right and somebody is really wrong, and historians cannot make such judgments. These terms should be avoided because they are “value-laden” Indeed, he says, “the historian has no access…to what is right in the eyes of God”
> 
> Old fella you gotta do better than this cat for facts about the Bible.



Okay this should keep everyone busy for a while! 

https://www.debunking-christianity.com/2020/03/rebuffing-and-rejecting-resurrection.html

What I find interesting is the claim that the Romans threw victims of crucifixion into "mass graves". This would contradict Dr. Ehrman's claim of letting the bodies decompose. I WILL RESEARCH ROMAN CRUCIFIXION further! Anyway, the article I linked to has a variety of things that can be further researched.

Roman practices of crucifixion victim body disposal: 

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...n-and-burial/ABDE509ED99779E09AD59AC274E378A3


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## Spotlite (Jun 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Okay this should keep everyone busy for a while!
> 
> https://www.debunking-christianity.com/2020/03/rebuffing-and-rejecting-resurrection.html
> 
> ...


He was hung between two thieves. Next.

“The Romans left criminals on the cross to discourage people from committing similar crimes. The birds and dogs could devour their bodies. When nothing was left, their bones were taken down from the cross and not placed in nice burials, but tossed into places like Golgotha (place of skulls).”


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## stringmusic (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> 47 verses where nobody gives their thoughts and astonishment about they saw. Riveting. 3000 people silent about it.
> Like I asked earlier, where can we learn more about these people and their versions of what they saw?
> 
> Id like to hear from the non Jews who witnessed it, scholars, educated, businessmen, middle class, the poor. Where is their testimony?


They obviously weren’t silent about it because the gospel spread all over the world from then til today, just because each person there didn’t write down what they saw doesn’t mean they didn’t see and hear. Even if they did you could crank up google and find people like Bart finding some reason or theory to dismiss every one of the writings. 

Jesus had just died and resurrected 50 days prior, if what Peter preached to all the people weren’t true it seems it would have been pretty easy to dismiss and we would have never heard about the gospel of Jesus unless we were history professors.


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## stringmusic (Jul 1, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I smell something cooking!  Yep, it’s another nothing-burger from the strangely God obsessed athiests!


Yep


Spotlite said:


> A deeper research reveals that ole Bart is just an atheist wanna be with biased research. There’s just as many educated with papers pro Jesus men out there.


Correct. He spends his entire life studying and trying to debunk something he doesn’t believe. Seems strange to me.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

stringmusic said:


> Yep
> 
> Correct. He spends his entire life studying and trying to debunk something he doesn’t believe. Seems strange to me.



Maybe history is something he's genuinely interested in, and it pays the bills, just like for many Biblical scholars.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> It was just stated recently on here by a non believer that only 12 people could read back then……why write?
> 
> On a serious note, the “for Jesus” crowd wasn’t considered “world changing large” It was only a 3 year ministry. Who’d a thunk that Jesus would have had an impact on the works as it unfolded?
> 
> Today, who’s writing about the life of the guy standing on the corner with a honk for Jesus sign?


If the guy on the corner was producing miracles,  coming back from the dead,  ascending into the sky I'd betcha someone notices and uses the best available means at the time to record the events as they happen.
Why wait 30+ years and have someone who wasn't there tell the story?


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

stringmusic said:


> They obviously weren’t silent about it because the gospel spread all over the world from then til today, just because each person there didn’t write down what they saw doesn’t mean they didn’t see and hear. Even if they did you could crank up google and find people like Bart finding some reason or theory to dismiss every one of the writings.
> 
> Jesus had just died and resurrected 50 days prior, if what Peter preached to all the people weren’t true it seems it would have been pretty easy to dismiss and we would have never heard about the gospel of Jesus unless we were history professors.


Yeah, the nightly news takes at least 30 to 70 years to catch up on current events.


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## stringmusic (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Maybe history is something he's genuinely interested in, and it pays the bills, just like for many Biblical scholars.


It’s one thing to be interested in history or be a history scholar, it’s another to try to debunk something that you don’t believe in the first place. And I’m sure it does pay the bills, that’s not going to satisfy what he needs though.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

stringmusic said:


> They obviously weren’t silent about it because the gospel spread all over the world from then til today, just because each person there didn’t write down what they saw doesn’t mean they didn’t see and hear. Even if they did you could crank up google and find people like Bart finding some reason or theory to dismiss every one of the writings.
> 
> Jesus had just died and resurrected 50 days prior, if what Peter preached to all the people weren’t true it seems it would have been pretty easy to dismiss and we would have never heard about the gospel of Jesus unless we were history professors.



I think (I could be wrong) that bullet head means there are no outside sources AKA not using the Bible as a reference attesting to what they saw. As for people not believing something unless it's true, there are _millions of Muslims_ who believe in the stories that Christians don't think are true, or even evil. There are millions of Hindus who believe in stories that you don't think are true.

Bottom line humans are hard-wired to make up stories, and to make mistakes when retelling stories, so I try to treat all stories involving supernatural claims as suspect.
And when it comes to religion, they can't all be correct. Ergo, until any religion can prove itself to be more than human concocted stories, I can only assume that they are all just fiction.


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## stringmusic (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> If the guy on the corner was producing miracles,  coming back from the dead,  ascending into the sky I'd betcha someone notices and uses the best available means at the time to record the events as they happen.


Tell me about it, if all that happened we would have books and letters written by people of the time about those events called like, the Bible or something, and millions and millions of people would believe thousands of years after.


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## 660griz (Jul 1, 2022)

stringmusic said:


> Tell me about it, if all that happened we would have books and letters written by people of the time about those events called like, the Bible...



When was the story of Jesus resurrection written?

These date from *between 70 and 110 AD*, and it is almost certain that none of them were written directly by eyewitnesses


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

stringmusic said:


> Tell me about it, if all that happened we would have books and letters written by people of the time about those events called like, the Bible or something, and millions and millions of people would believe thousands of years after.


Except that nobody recorded it as it happened. It took decades for someone who was not there to write about what they didnt see.


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## Danuwoa (Jul 1, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> funny... all those 3000 plus people 50 days later believed that He had risen from the grave....


This bunch here is obsessed with a religion they claim is bunk.  Says a lot of you think about it.


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## RegularJoe (Jul 1, 2022)

The validity of Christianity stands or falls on whether Jesus did or did not return from the physical dead after several days.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Yeah, the nightly news takes at least 30 to 70 years to catch up on current events.



Or if it's left-wing news it ignores some current events completely! 

Anyway, I think that not having almost immediate documentation and widespread communications and transportation was the saving grace (no pun intended) of early Christianity. Here is my theory:
there was a decades long gap between Jesus' death/resurrection and written documentation about it. That is a lot of time to change & embellish stories and many eye-witnesses would be dead or nearly impossible to locate. Those who could be interviewed wouldn't be able to remember the events with any reliable degree of accuracy. Virtually every event in the New Testament varies considerably depending on who is telling the story. And why _wouldn't _stories vary if told by humans who never personally witnessed the events? That said, stories tend to grow more embellished, not less. Does a fish get _smaller_ every time you tell the story of the one that got away?


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## stringmusic (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I think (I could be wrong) that bullet head means there are no outside sources AKA not using the Bible as a reference attesting to what they saw. As for people not believing something unless it's true, there are _millions of Muslims_ who believe in the stories that Christians don't think are true, or even evil. There are millions of Hindus who believe in stories that you don't think are true.


If there were “outside” sources, whatever that means, those sources would be dismissed along with the writers of the Bible. So I don’t think the amount of sources is the problem. 

Also, I didn’t say people don’t believe things that are false, I said it would have been pretty easy for the people that Peter was preaching to in the book of Acts to know and verify what he was saying was true or false.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> This bunch here is obsessed with a religion they claim is bunk.  Says a lot of you think about it.



I don't know if you meant "says a lot *if *you think about it" or not. 
Regardless, most of us are not obsessed with it as much as interested in it. Personally, I'm not interested in religion so much as the mindset and motivations and world view of believers.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

stringmusic said:


> If there were “outside” sources, whatever that means, those sources would be dismissed along with the writers of the Bible. So I don’t think the amount of sources is the problem.
> 
> Also, I didn’t say people don’t believe things that are false, I said it would have been pretty easy for the people that Peter was preaching to in the book of Acts to know and verify what he was saying was true or false.


The amount of sources is the start of the problem. There is no corroborating stories or evidence to back anything up. There is nothing outside of the bible that validates what is told inside of the bible. It is a problem with many religious writings. They exist nowhere but within themselves. 
The grand scale of God on Earth seems to have been missed by most.


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## Danuwoa (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I don't know if you meant "says a lot *if *you think about it" or not.
> Regardless, most of us are not obsessed with it as much as interested in it. Personally, I'm not interested in religion so much as the mindset and motivations and world view of believers.


Cool story.  You boys talk daily about something you don’t believe in.  The pretense about being interested in the mindset of believers is dual part excuse to talk about something you say you dont believe in and the way this bunch gets their jollies from the idea that the reason they don’t believe in God is because they’re too smart.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

stringmusic said:


> If there were “outside” sources, whatever that means, those sources would be dismissed along with the writers of the Bible. So I don’t think the amount of sources is the problem.
> 
> Also, I didn’t say people don’t believe things that are false, I said it would have been pretty easy for the people that Peter was preaching to in the book of Acts to know and verify what he was saying was true or false.



Human psychology being what it is I see things like this: anyone listening to Peter would probably have some interest in what he was saying, or they would leave. The longer they listen, the more they believe. And if their friends & family start to believe then the easier and more likely it is for them to believe too. Their skepticism might fade, and they start to rationalize their new beliefs as true & accurate. 

Not saying religion is a conspiracy theory, but a modern-day conspiracy theory would likely start out the same way. Humans "want to believe" and once they do, it's a big ship to turn around.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I don't know if you meant "says a lot *if *you think about it" or not.
> Regardless, most of us are not obsessed with it as much as interested in it. Personally, I'm not interested in religion so much as the mindset and motivations and world view of believers.


You have to consider the source and what it brings to the table.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Human psychology being what it is I see things like this: anyone listening to Peter would probably have some interest in what he was saying, or they would leave. The longer they listen, the more they believe. And if their friends & family start to believe then the easier and more likely it is for them to believe too. Their skepticism might fade, and they start to rationalize their new beliefs as true & accurate.
> 
> Not saying religion is a conspiracy theory, but a modern-day conspiracy theory would likely start out the same way. Humans "want to believe" and once they do, it's a big ship to turn around.


Listening to someone and witnessing the event are two very different things. You are correct about the human psychology aspect.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The amount of sources is the start of the problem. There is no corroborating stories or evidence to back anything up. There is nothing outside of the bible that validates what is told inside of the bible. It is a problem with many religious writings. They exist nowhere but within themselves.
> The grand scale of God on Earth seems to have been missed by most.



Yep, using a holy book to reference the contents is like me writing a book about how awesome I am, and I using that same book to prove what I say.

IMHO even if outside sources are as conflicting and inaccurate as the holy book itself, at least these outside sources acknowledge the events themselves. But if there is no mention of an amazing, world changing event then* the most likely reason *is the event never happened. For example, an earthquake occurs when Jesus dies, and tombs burst open and long dead saints come back to life and walk the Earth and there are ZERO outside sources and indeed there are only two sentences about it in the Bible. Call me a skeptic, but that sounds made up.


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## stringmusic (Jul 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> When was the story of Jesus resurrection written?
> 
> These date from *between 70 and 110 AD*, and it is almost certain that none of them were written directly by eyewitnesses


How are you certain John and Matthew and Paul were not eyewitnesses? 


bullethead said:


> Except that nobody recorded it as it happened. It took decades for someone who was not there to write about what they didnt see.


You don’t know that. From my understanding the earliest manuscripts we have of the gospel are from John, a disciple of Jesus. We don’t know if he had a notebook full of notes that he wrote while traveling with Jesus and then compiled everything into one letter before he died, either way in comparison to other historical writings biblical manuscripts are extremely early written, especially considering most people of the time passed things down orally. 

Read the first paragraph in the book of Luke,


> “Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.”
> ‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:1-4‬


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## stringmusic (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Human psychology being what it is I see things like this: anyone listening to Peter would probably have some interest in what he was saying, or they would leave. The longer they listen, the more they believe. And if their friends & family start to believe then the easier and more likely it is for them to believe too. Their skepticism might fade, and they start to rationalize their new beliefs as true & accurate.
> 
> Not saying religion is a conspiracy theory, but a modern-day conspiracy theory would likely start out the same way. Humans "want to believe" and once they do, it's a big ship to turn around.


They were all alive 50 days before the sermon by Peter, they were first hand witnesses to many of the things that were preached. You’re talking about the people like they didn’t have a clue what was going on and what just happened to Jesus. Many of them could have been part of the 500 that actually seen the resurrected body of Jesus. 

The point is, if what Peter was preaching to these people weren’t true it would have been extremely easy for the people standing in front of Peter to say “you’re full of it, we’ve been around and didn’t witness anything you’re talking about”


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

stringmusic said:


> They were all alive 50 days before the sermon by Peter, they were first hand witnesses to many of the things that were preached. You’re talking about the people like they didn’t have a clue what was going on and what just happened to Jesus. Many of them could have been part of the 500 that actually seen the resurrected body of Jesus.
> 
> The point is, if what Peter was preaching to these people weren’t true it would have been extremely easy for the people standing in front of Peter to say “you’re full of it, we’ve been around and didn’t witness anything you’re talking about”


Yes, your points are valid. That is why nobody belives in Bigfoot and such things.
You have to understand that in a time when people believed in all types of Gods and believed that all these God's were prevalent in their daily activities and lives there were 100's of "Peters" preaching about what they saw and thousands of listeners who gathered to hear what these guys were saying and followed the words that best suited what they liked, wanted to hear or needed to hear.
Denominations today are a good example of how people flow to their needs.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> If the guy on the corner was producing miracles,  coming back from the dead,  ascending into the sky I'd betcha someone notices and uses the best available means at the time to record the events as they happen.
> Why wait 30+ years and have someone who wasn't there tell the story?


They were telling the story. Only had a few short years to spread it by word of mouth - no phone or internet. If a man was 20 at the time Jesus was preaching he’d been less than 90 by the time they started writing. Is it a possibility they they thought He was returning sooner and when they realized that it might be down the road they decided to write it down? Or is it possible that according to the Book they were inspired by the Spirit to write? If a Deity such as that exist it’s possible. It only leaves the option to believe it or not.

I’m writing a documentary now on my Granddad, not to be published but to pass on because when I pass there’s no one left to tell some of these stories. Most of it involves his moonshine running for the Sheriff’s (yes more than one). I don’t have any physical evidence of that, just my memory cause I toted a bunch of it. I remember him telling me to “walk” with the boxes so when my mom asks if I’d took part in running shine I would not be lying by saying no?. She did, too. She’d say boy you better not be taking any part of running shine, I’d always say I didn’t, I promise.

It’s not even possible to prove anything at this point - they’re all dead and all the shine has been drank. Only evidence would be from the stories of some folk. Based on your parameters, lack of physical evidence says it didn’t happen.

Some funny stories I can’t prove because they’re all dead now. But one day I’ll tell about the river accident. The river here is swift when they’re generating water. It involves a boat almost flipping, a guy with a wooden leg filling his britches up cause he was scared from falling out of the boat, Pawpaw and corn whiskey.

Long story short - Pawpaw done been in the jug, he pulled Geraldine out of the water, pulled his wooden leg off, smelt him stinking where he done wrecked his drawers, said that boy done rotted his legs already coming off. He threw Geraldine and his wooden leg back in the water. Geraldine had to buy a new leg.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

stringmusic said:


> They were all alive 50 days before the sermon by Peter, they were first hand witnesses to many of the things that were preached. You’re talking about the people like they didn’t have a clue what was going on and what just happened to Jesus. Many of them could have been part of the 500 that actually seen the resurrected body of Jesus.
> 
> The point is, if what Peter was preaching to these people weren’t true it would have been extremely easy for the people standing in front of Peter to say “you’re full of it, we’ve been around and didn’t witness anything you’re talking about”


 
Perhaps many didn't believe Peter and just walked away. Some believed it was true and were convinced, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. Millions of people believe things that aren't true.


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## stringmusic (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Yes, your points are valid. That is why nobody belives in Bigfoot and such things.
> You have to understand that in a time when people believed in all types of Gods and believed that all these God's were prevalent in their daily activities and lives there were 100's of "Peters" preaching about what they saw and thousands of listeners who gathered to hear what these guys were saying and followed the words that best suited what they liked, wanted to hear or needed to hear.
> Denominations today are a good example of how people flow to their needs.


It is true that people like to hear words that they agree with, however people don’t typically believe in things they know, or can easily verify are completely false even if it sounds good. 

It would be the equivalent of me, a month and a half after the game, standing in front of thousands of people that were actually there, the Falcons actually won the Super Bowl in 2016. So while that would have sounded good to falcons fans, nobody would believe me.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> They were telling the story. Only had a few short years to spread it by word of mouth - no phone or internet. If a man was 20 at the time Jesus was preaching he’d been less than 90 by the time they started writing. Is it a possibility they they thought He was returning sooner and when they realized that it might be down the road they decided to write it down? Or is it possible that according to the Book they were inspired by the Spirit to write? If a Deity such as that exist it’s possible. It only leaves the option to believe it or not.


The life expectancy now is much less than 90.  Back then it was much than now 55-60 was old.
And yes but for different reasons I agree that when Jesus didn't return in their generation/lifetime the stories started to be told.
People are inspired by many things to write. I would expect the HS to choose more knowledgeable and capable writers to get things correct but I hold gods to higher standards.
"If" opens a lot of doors to a lot of deities. 



Spotlite said:


> I’m writing a documentary now on my Granddad, not to be published but to pass on because when I pass there’s no one left to tell some of these stories. Most of it involves his moonshine running for the Sheriff’s (yes more than one). I don’t have any physical evidence of that, just my memory cause I toted a bunch of it. I remember him telling me to “walk” with the boxes so when my mom asks if I’d took part in running shine I would not be lying by saying no?. She did, too. She’d say boy you better not be taking any part of running shine, I’d always say I didn’t, I promise.


Can you honestly say that you record things exactly as has happened or exactly as best that you can remember it happening?
Do you think that I could record an accurate portrayal of your Grandaddy's escapades based off of local stories from people who heard stories but were not there when it happened? For example,  if I meet the son of an acquaintance of your grandfather in a coffe shop for a sit down interview do you think I would get an accurate story about a conversation between your GF and the Sheriff when the only two people present were your GF and Sheriff? I think I can get a good idea of how how things were but can I trust it when I am told that "the sheriff then wrinkled his nose, leaned in and whispered........"
I mean there were only two people there and nobody else. Who could know the details of what was said or done besides those two people? 



Spotlite said:


> It’s not even possible to prove anything at this point - they’re all dead and all the shine has been drank. Only evidence would be from the stories of some folk. Based on your parameters, lack of physical evidence says it didn’t happen.


My parameters would acknowledge that things of such nature were prevalent in parts of the nation during those times. So I would zero doubts about a man running hooch, what make of vehicle was used, what performance mods were done to the motor and suspension, etc. These are plausible actions.
The line in the sand gets drawn at specific conversations where an author was not present. Intricate details about what happened when your GF was alone and told nobody what went on. And especially when the author includes details that defy all known physical abilities portraying them as fact without seeing them in person.
If you write "The Sheriff questioned my Pap's abilities so Pap lifted the front end of his 40 Mercury 3 ft off the ground with one hand while simultaneously keeping 3 bloodhounds at bay with his other hand"......I am not going to believe you even if that is the story your Pap told you face to face.



Spotlite said:


> Some funny stories I can’t prove because they’re all dead now. But one day I’ll tell about the river accident. The river here is swift when they’re generating water. It involves a boat almost flipping, a guy with a wooden leg filling his britches up cause he was scared from falling out of the boat, Pawpaw and corn whiskey.
> 
> Long story short - Pawpaw done been in the jug, he pulled Geraldine out of the water, pulled his wooden leg off, smelt him stinking where he done wrecked his drawers, said that boy done rotted his legs already coming off. He threw Geraldine and his wooden leg back in the water. Geraldine had to buy a new leg.


Absolutely hysterical and the only thing better would be sitting around a camp fire sipping some shine as you told it in person someday.


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## stringmusic (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Perhaps many didn't believe Peter and just walked away. Some believed it was true and were convinced, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. Millions of people believe things that aren't true.


No but it’s pretty good evidence that it is.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> They were telling the story. Only had a few short years to spread it by word of mouth - no phone or internet. If a man was 20 at the time Jesus was preaching he’d been less than 90 by the time they started writing. Is it a possibility they they thought He was returning sooner and when they realized that it might be down the road they decided to write it down? Or is it possible that according to the Book they were inspired by the Spirit to write? If a Deity such as that exist it’s possible. It only leaves the option to believe it or not.
> 
> I’m writing a documentary now on my Granddad, not to be published but to pass on because when I pass there’s no one left to tell some of these stories. Most of it involves his moonshine running for the Sheriff’s (yes more than one). I don’t have any physical evidence of that, just my memory cause I toted a bunch of it. I remember him telling me to “walk” with the boxes so when my mom asks if I’d took part in running shine I would not be lying by saying no?. She did, too. She’d say boy you better not be taking any part of running shine, I’d always say I didn’t, I promise.
> 
> ...



Awesome story and it makes sense to me. And more importantly nothing in your boating story defies the laws of science & physics! 

But interesting point about disciples being almost 90 before telling their stories. If they didn't write it down very soon after it happened, how reliable & accurate would their memory be at age 90? What are the odds that they would even live that long?

I would think that they initially thought Jesus would come back sooner versus later. 
A lot of Biblical scholars/historians say that in at least one of the gospels Jesus talks a few times as if "the end is near" for example not worrying about your finances or the future, leaving your family, selling everything, etc. If that's the Jesus you believed in then of course you would wait patiently for his return and the subsequent end of the world as they knew it. Since short life spans were the norm back then, I can't imagine them waiting too long to kick things into high gear & document what they experienced. 

But while they were waiting for Jesus' return any stories they told/experiences they shared orally would be spreading and morphing into many different versions in the world's longest game of "telephone". You would have people griping about the actual disciples telling their own stories "wrong" because they heard a different story from somebody else ten years earlier! 

Bottom line if Jesus/God performed any legit "miracles" they were never discussed or documented by the general non-believing - which to be fair doesn't mean that they didn't happen. But here we are in 2022 and there are zero legit, witnessed, proven and documented by the general public miracles occurring anywhere in the world in any religion. Not saying there won't be in the future, but so far there are zero miracles, only events & happenings that might be interpreted as miracles by believers looking for miracles. 

And I hate to beat a dead horse, but will a believer please weigh in about the tombs bursting open and dead saints walking around and why only one gospel mentions this?* Zero* outside the Bible sources noticed the zombie outbreak? 
Shed some light on this event please.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The life expectancy now is much less than 90.  Back then it was much than now 55-60 was old.
> And yes but for different reasons I agree that when Jesus didn't return in their generation/lifetime the stories started to be told.
> People are inspired by many things to write. I would expect the HS to choose more knowledgeable and capable writers to get things correct but I hold gods to higher standards.
> "If" opens a lot of doors to a lot of deities.
> ...


No I didn’t record as exactly but they’re close enough that it doesn’t change what happened by making it more / less true or affective.

My Son wasn’t there, but he knows most of the stories I’ve passed to him.

I get what you’re saying overall and agree - but if God is the ultimate Author then He was there.

And yeah that’s be cool to have se if his shine at a campfire up in your neck of the woods where it actually gets cold enough to sit by a fire.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

stringmusic said:


> It is true that people like to hear words that they agree with, however people don’t typically believe in things they know, or can easily verify are completely false even if it sounds good.


Like Aliens, Bigfoot, etc? Those type things?



stringmusic said:


> It would be the equivalent of me, a month and a half after the game, standing in front of thousands of people that were actually there, the Falcons actually won the Super Bowl in 2016. So while that would have sounded good to falcons fans, nobody would believe me.


So these 3000 people...they were all down town in the area and all had a good seat to what was happening as it happened?
Did Jesus perform in amiptheaters type venues where times and dates were known beforehand so he had lots of eye witnesses?
Or
Did he do his thing and the wispers started...some scoffing, some believing and some adding to the story when they turned to the next person as they told it?
25 kids in a classroom cannot get one sentence correct when its wispered into the first ear and passed along around the class until the last kid repeats it out loud. In a time when gods were competing for human worship and at a time when people were upping the look what my god can do ante and especially in times where people preached about it all daily from the streets....they are all in the same boat. When Jesus was turning water into wine another guy was turning dragons into kitty cats. Each had their followers but I somehow doubt you'd accept the same parameters of proof for each.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

stringmusic said:


> No but it’s pretty good evidence that it is.



Sorry, but the number of people that believe something is true has no bearing on whether something is true or not. It is not good evidence. Millions of people used to believe that the world was flat. Millions of Muslims in 2022 think that Muhammed split the moon. Are they wrong? I think so.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> No I didn’t record as exactly but they’re close enough that it doesn’t change what happened by making it more / less true or affective.


Did you include any miraculous events? Why or Why not?


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Did you include any miraculous events? Why or Why not?


Well honestly, it was a miracle we made out of the river every time we went. 

We already had a boat full of people. We all noodled catfish from under the big rocks. Back then they called hand fishing or cat mouthing. So we usually had a load of fish, too. 

When other buddies Jack and Bud mixed with RC and shine………I think we ran the river backwards a few times.


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## ClemsonRangers (Jul 1, 2022)

*knocking sound*


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Sorry, but the number of people that believe something is true has no bearing on whether something is true or not. It is not good evidence. Millions of people used to believe that the world was flat. Millions of Muslims in 2022 think that Muhammed split the moon. Are they wrong? I think so.


And that holds true for the number of people not believing something. It’s important to note that non belief is most often grounded on lack of evidence - not enough, most likely or possibility. 

There is no hard factual evidence for or against God.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> And that holds true for the number of people not believing something. It’s important to note that non belief is most often grounded on lack of evidence - not enough, most likely or possibility.
> 
> There is no hard factual evidence for or against God.


There is no hard actual evidence for or against:
God, your God, a God,Gods, Aliens, Leprechauns,  Vampires, Skunk Apes and their obvious various varieties, Flying Spaghetti Monster or Monsters and literally anything else anyone can conjure up in their mind.
Why doesn't something stand out of the pack?


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Well honestly, it was a miracle we made out of the river every time we went.
> 
> We already had a boat full of people. We all noodled catfish from under the big rocks. Back then they called hand fishing or cat mouthing. So we usually had a load of fish, too.
> 
> When other buddies Jack and Bud mixed with RC and shine………I think we ran the river backwards a few times.


I like the "ran the river backwards sometimes" reference.
I know what you mean but in a time when people believed such things were possible, stories would circulate insinuating that the river was actually made to run backwards.....and THAT is how legends and fables are started.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Awesome story and it makes sense to me. And more importantly nothing in your boating story defies the laws of science & physics!
> 
> But interesting point about disciples being almost 90 before telling their stories. If they didn't write it down very soon after it happened, how reliable & accurate would their memory be at age 90? What are the odds that they would even live that long?
> 
> ...


A few things to take into consideration:
1. Of those that were dead - who saw them may or may have know they had died.

2. According to the Bible you’re not going to be raised as a zombie so I wouldn’t think these folks rode looking like death warmed over. 

3. It’s another one of those stores where I can say yeah that’s humanly impossible but if it can happen, there’s only one way. I don’t even care to try to wrap my head around it. If it happened, He’s the only way it can happen. I believe He exist so I can’t doubt His power. If He don’t exist it can’t happen.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> And that holds true for the number of people not believing something. It’s important to note that non belief is most often grounded on lack of evidence - not enough, most likely or possibility.
> 
> There is no hard factual evidence for or against God.



True there is no hard evidence against the possibility of a God (in some form) but there is hard evidence against the claims of what the Biblical God did. This evidence against mainly addresses major events that would affect the functioning of the physical world that we all live in regardless of our religious beliefs.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Sorry, but the number of people that believe something is true has no bearing on whether something is true or not. It is not good evidence. Millions of people used to believe that the world was flat. Millions of Muslims in 2022 think that Muhammed split the moon. Are they wrong? I think so.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criterion_of_multiple_attestation


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> There is no hard actual evidence for or against:
> God, your God, a God,Gods, Aliens, Leprechauns,  Vampires, Skunk Apes and their obvious various varieties, Flying Spaghetti Monster or Monsters and literally anything else anyone can conjure up in their mind.
> Why doesn't something stand out of the pack?


Because all those others are ruled out so I don’t spend any time considering them. This one I found outside of those wild stories and tangible evidence.

When I say hard evidence I mean I have nothing to show you to make you believe - that completely removes faith and how God reveals himself. I can’t do His work.


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## jrickman (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> True there is no hard evidence against the possibility of a God (in some form) but there is hard evidence against the claims of what the Biblical God did. This evidence against mainly addresses major events that would affect the functioning of the physical world that we all live in regardless of our religious beliefs.



I am genuinely curious why so many atheists assume that the God who created the universe by speaking it into existence is somehow bound by the laws of physics in the same way that we are.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I like the "ran the river backwards sometimes" reference.
> I know what you mean but in a time when people believed such things were possible, stories would circulate insinuating that the river was actually made to run backwards.....and THAT is how legends and fables are started.



I don’t think the Jesus story was as quite in those days as you’d like to think. Keep in mind what Jesus was accused of - breaking the laws, threatening to destroy the Temple, practicing sorcery, etc. Hung between two thieves as a rebel.

The reason He was accused of those things is because of the miraculous works He performed.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Because all those others are ruled out so I don’t spend any time considering them. This one I found outside of those wild stories and tangible evidence.
> 
> When I say hard evidence I mean I have nothing to show you to make you believe - that completely removed faith and how God reveals himself. I can’t do His work.


I must use the criteria for those others when it is no different than the criteria you use for your own. Whether or not you agree doesn't matter since it is one size fits all for each and every one.
If yours stood out I could agree more with you.
I cannot accept one more than the others when they are all in the same conundrum. 

I am never tired of being perplexed at why something touted as being a God has No Hard Evidence.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> A few things to take into consideration:
> 1. Of those that were dead - who saw them may or may have know they had died.
> 
> 2. According to the Bible you’re not going to be raised as a zombie so I wouldn’t think these folks rode looking like death warmed over.
> ...



So, if you have to choose, the tombs busting open would be a miracle * rather than it never actually happened? As for your first point, don't you think that somebody who was six feet under then comes back to life would be surprised & amazed and start fervently trying to figure out what's going on? Where are their family members and friends they knew when they were alive? Why are some people speaking a different language now? Things most people would ask if being dead for a long, long time. 

* part of the miracle would be none of the other Bible authors knowing about this event, or forgetting about it completely when the time came to put pen to paper.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

jrickman said:


> I am genuinely curious why so many atheists assume that the God who created the universe by speaking it into existence is somehow bound by the laws of physics in the same way that we are.


Because many Gods are credited for creation. Why do you dismiss the power and greatness of the others?


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t think the Jesus story was as quite in those days as you’d like to think. Keep in mind what Jesus was accused of - breaking the laws, threatening to destroy the Temple, practicing sorcery, etc. Hung between two thieves as a rebel.
> 
> The reason He was accused of those things are because of the miraculous works He performed.


No miracles were necessary for him to have been a trouble maker and have been put to death. Crucifixion was a staple of punishment.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I must use the criteria for those others when it is no different than the criteria you use for your own. Whether or not you agree doesn't matter since it is one size fits all for each and every one.
> If yours stood out I could agree more with you.
> I cannot accept one more than the others when they are all in the same conundrum.
> 
> I am never tired of being perplexed at why something touted as being a God has No Hard Evidence.


I didn’t use any man made criteria. If you’d carefully read the Book of Acts…….do a few times. The answer is there.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> No miracles were necessary for him to have been a trouble maker and have been put to death. Crucifixion was a staple of punishment.


Casting demons out and healing was the reason He was accused of practicing sorcery.

I don’t know if just being a trouble maker qualified as breaking laws that warranted death.

The point is - the claim that nothing was jotted down and nothing known about Jesus except for a select few people is false. Y’all do claim to believe that Jesus was a real person and was killed. In digging for evidence as anyone bothered to try to uncover court records since everything back in the day was so well documented? How did become known at the govt level as a practicing sorcery as an unknown man?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t think the Jesus story was as quite in those days as you’d like to think. Keep in mind what Jesus was accused of - breaking the laws, threatening to destroy the Temple, practicing sorcery, etc. Hung between two thieves as a rebel.
> 
> The reason He was accused of those things are because of the miraculous works He performed.



Or perhaps because he claimed to be the King of the Jews. Perhaps the Romans weren't thinking of a spiritual king, but an_ actual _king and thus a threat to their power and political influence. Anybody claiming to be a king of any type and usurping their authority & riling up the people would be crucified for treason and made an example of. He was a major security risk. 

If Jesus was crucified for performing so many amazing miracles that even the Roman government was afraid of his supernatural abilities, I think a few outside the Bible sources would have said something about it. So far nothing outside the Bible has turned up about it.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 1, 2022)

jrickman said:


> I am genuinely curious why so many atheists assume that the God who created the universe by speaking it into existence is somehow bound by the laws of physics in the same way that we are.


Since God hasnt been proven to exist or have created the universe, we have to evaluate the claims using the laws etc that man has to work with.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I didn’t use any man made criteria. If you’d carefully read the Book of Acts…….do a few times. The answer is there.



Some outside sources & references are needed. As I explained, if I wrote a book about my awesome exploits and abilities, I can't use *that same book* to prove my claims are true. Other people not within my circle of influence would have to document my claims in books they published. Holy books don't get a pass.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Some outside sources & references are needed. As I explained, if I wrote a book about my awesome exploits and abilities, I can't use *that same book* to prove my claims are true. Other people not within my circle of influence would have to document my claims in books they published. Holy books don't get a pass.


That eliminates faith and faith is where you find God. Problem identified.


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## jrickman (Jul 1, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Since God hasnt been proven to exist or have created the universe, we have to evaluate the claims using the laws etc that man has to work with.



But literally the very first claim is that He spoke it all into existence, and therefore it stands to reason, is not bound by time and physics as we are. If you don't believe that, that's fine, but don't dismiss the very first claim by altering it to suit your own argument believing it to make you sound more logical.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Casting demons out and healing was the reason He was accused of practicing sorcery.
> 
> I don’t know if just being a trouble maker qualified as breaking laws that warranted death.
> 
> The point is - the claim that nothing was jotted down and nothing known about Jesus except for a select few people is false. Y’all do claim to believe that Jesus was a real person and was killed. In digging for evidence as anyone bothered to try to uncover court records since everything back in the day was so well documented? How did become known at the govt level as a practicing sorcery as an unknown man?


The Pharisees brought him up on charges for breaking Jewish laws. Pilot let the Jews decide Jesus fate. Rome/Gov't didn't kill Jesus. Jesus rocked the boat of his religious leaders and broke their laws.

Sorcery was practiced and exercised then. The Pharoah's men turned sticks into snakes also. Was God doing their work too?


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The Pharisees brought him up on charges for breaking Jewish laws. Pilot let the Jews decide Jesus fate. Rome/Gov't didn't kill Jesus. Jesus rocked the boat of his religious leaders and broke their laws.
> 
> Sorcery was practiced and exercised then. The Pharoah's men turned sticks into snakes also. Was God doing their work too?


“Stick into snakes” - magic / black magic. That’s what sorcery is. Anything you name as miraculous was considered sorcery by non believers of the day.

Because He was accused of things such as sorcery says others besides those who believed Him saw / heard. He didn’t go unnoticed.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

jrickman said:


> But literally the very first claim is that He spoke it all into existence, and therefore it stands to reason, is not bound by time and physics as we are. If you don't believe that, that's fine, but don't dismiss the very first claim by altering it to suit your own argument believing it to make you sound more logical.


Claim does not equal fact.
Nobody has been able to come close to providing evidence that a god of any sort exists, let alone specifics as to how many exist,which ones exist or what their abilities are.

I wouldn't be chucking logic rocks around the bible claim glass house.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

R


Spotlite said:


> “Stick into snakes” - magic / black magic. That’s what sorcery is. Anything you name as miraculous was considered sorcery by non believers of the day.
> 
> Because He was accused of things such as sorcery says others besides those who believed Him saw / heard. He didn’t go unnoticed.


By what means did the others turn sticks into snakes?
Divine Powers or Deception?
Sorcery/Magic is the same no matter who is doing it.
When a person does it to entertain they don't get into trouble. When a person does it to embarass religious powers that be then trouble starts.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> R
> 
> By what means did the others turn sticks into snakes?
> Divine Powers or Deception?
> ...


Whatever reason He done it makes the accusation that no one took notes or anything about Jesus until years after he was crucified false. Obviously he was “the talk”.

That being the case - I’m sure no one wanted a criminal to become famous through the path of “infamous”. Even if He is who the Bible says He is could that be a potential reason you can’t find documentation on Him outside the Bible? Did the Ronan’s even document his death? What they do with his body, what they do with the two thieves bodies? 

Non believers existed then, too. If they didn’t believe Him I’m pretty sure they didn’t make a big deal out of preserving His work.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Whatever reason He done it makes the accusation that no one took notes or anything about Jesus until years after he was crucified false. Obviously he was “the talk”.


Now wait a minute...
The reason means the difference. 
You cannot blow off the "powers" of the 100s of other magicians and elevate the glory of another's for the same parlor tricks.
He got noticed then as merely a man who made trouble for the religious authorities by calling out their practices. They dealt with him as they saw fit. No different than today. Some get a slap,some get 2yrs in jail for being near the Capitol, some shoot themselves twice in the chest with a shotgun as they hang themselves.
His "powers" were embellished decades upon decades later in order to turn a man into a god.
Wanna flip tables in the Temple...go for it. But eventually you will wear out your welcome.
Charasmatic Jewish figures abound in their history.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

Don't forget Spotlite that the PEOPLE decided to crucify Jesus. Apparently he did not impress too many of them to turn out for his trial.
No mention of 100s or thousands of followers cheering for his release. Pilot washed his hands and let the people decide. The people didn't fall for his 'tude any more than the Pharisees did.
A handful of family and some buddies too afraid to show themselves for fear of getting tacked up themselves isnt that impressive.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Now wait a minute...
> The reason means the difference.
> You cannot blow off the "powers" of the 100s of other magicians and elevate the glory of another's for the same parlor tricks.
> He got noticed then as merely a man who made trouble for the religious authorities by calling out their practices. They dealt with him as they saw fit. No different than today. Some get a slap,some get 2yrs in jail for being near the Capitol, some shoot themselves twice in the chest with a shotgun as they hang themselves.
> ...


His reason didn’t have anything to do with the accusation that no one bothered to take note. 

He obviously did something that got the attention of people. 

His reasons were divine but to me that’s a different topic than no one took note of him.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Don't forget Spotlite that the PEOPLE decided to crucify Jesus. Apparently he did not impress too many of them to turn out for his trial.
> No mention of 100s or thousands of followers cheering for his release. Pilot washed his hands and let the people decide. The people didn't fall for his 'tude any more than the Pharisees did.
> A handful of family and some buddies too afraid to show themselves for fear of getting tacked up themselves isnt that impressive.


I think that’s my point - I wasn’t attempting to show that He was impressive or believable; only that He was not going unnoticed. Documented or not, people outside the Bible, people knew His work even if it was considered sorcery to them.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> His reason didn’t have anything to do with the accusation that no one bothered to take note.
> 
> He obviously did something that got the attention of people.
> 
> His reasons were divine but to me that’s a different topic than no one took note of him.


He was noted for his troublemaking and speaking out against the Pharisees.
They dealt with him accordingly. 
Decades later, his human troublemaking was embellished with miraculous deeds by authors who were not there.
Huge difference.


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I think that’s my point - I wasn’t attempting to show that He was impressive or believable; only that He was not going unnoticed. Documented or not, people outside the Bible, people knew His work even if it was considered sorcery to them.


Not impressive or believable deflates the claims a lotta bit.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That eliminates faith and faith is where you find God. Problem identified.



Problem identified? Problem exposed that's for sure! Faith may be where you find God but faith can also be where you find trouble. If you evaluate everything through faith versus reasoning you could be led astray.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

jrickman said:


> I am genuinely curious why so many atheists assume that the God who created the universe by speaking it into existence is somehow bound by the laws of physics in the same way that we are.



God very well might not be bound by the laws of physics, but humans (and the rest of the world) are. Thus, anything outrageous that God can do would have a very real effect on everything in the real, physical world in which we operate.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Problem identified? Problem exposed that's for sure! Faith may be where you find God but faith can also be where you find trouble. If you evaluate everything through faith versus reasoning you could be led astray.


Faith is the only place you’ll find God. 

Faith isn’t reading a chapter and saying “I believe it’s true”.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> He was noted for his troublemaking and speaking out against the Pharisees.
> They dealt with him accordingly.
> Decades later, his human troublemaking was embellished with miraculous deeds by authors who were not there.
> Huge difference.


Or, Vice versa….depending on the objective.,


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## bullethead (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Or, Vice versa….depending on the objective.,


Not following you on that one. 

It's our last day at the beach.
Gonna dine on some hardshells shortly.
I'll catch up much later


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Not following you on that one.
> 
> It's our last day at the beach.
> Gonna dine on some hardshells shortly.
> I'll catch up much later


Y’all enjoy yourselves!!! Our next beach trip is a few weeks away.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 1, 2022)

jrickman said:


> But literally the very first claim is that He spoke it all into existence, and therefore it stands to reason, is not bound by time and physics as we are. If you don't believe that, that's fine, but don't dismiss the very first claim by altering it to suit your own argument believing it to make you sound more logical.


I didnt alter anything so your "believing it to make you sound more logical" nonsense is created in your head.
And yes, IF and WHEN the Christian God and creation claims are proven to be true, THATS when it will stand to reason God is not bound by time and physics as we are.
Not before. Until then its just faith/belief.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Faith is the only place you’ll find God.
> 
> Faith isn’t reading a chapter and saying “I believe it’s true”.



So, you have to read enough that your suspension of disbelief kicks in, your denial of what you believe to be true kicks in, and prior common sense and knowledge is suppressed? That doesn't exactly sweeten the deal for me.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> So, you have to read enough that your suspension of disbelief kicks in, your denial of what you believe to be true kicks in, and prior common sense and knowledge is suppressed? That doesn't exactly sweeten the deal for me.


Here we go again……So Christians ultimately have to suppress common sense and knowledge? We’re really no different than you - we all believe we are right and can’t prove it to other. If we could we wouldn’t be here. 

It’s not in anything you read. It’s an undeniable experience, something that happens to you and there’s absolutely nothing in any encyclopedia, history book, research, etc. that can explain it. Scientists are foolish trying to connect wires to folks to mimic and test it and some are foolish enough to think scientists can do it.

It’s not a feel good, tear jerking, group hugging sensitive moment.

That’s why the ones of us that have experienced it say you’re not even on the same ball field trying to explain it to us.

It’s not ours to reveal to you.

But, as I said, faith isn’t reading a chapter and saying I believe it’s true. That’s not what we do by believing.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Here we go again……So Christians ultimately have to suppress common sense and knowledge? We’re really no different than you - we all believe we are right and can’t prove it to other. If we could we wouldn’t be here.
> 
> It’s not in anything you read. It’s an undeniable experience, something that happens to you and there’s absolutely nothing in any encyclopedia, history book, research, etc. that can explain it. Scientists are foolish trying to connect wires to folks to mimic and test it and some are foolish enough to think scientists can do it.
> 
> ...



I see a comparison here. While not the same thing at all *- no disrespect intended* - but I still see a comparison between what you are trying to explain and what drug users try to explain to me, the non-drug user.   The terminology like "an undeniable experience" "nothing that can explain it" "science can't mimic it" etc. 
And to be honest both of these things are in their own way mind altering, based on emotions & feelings, wide open to misinterpreting reality, self-delusional, and possibly mental performance degrading versus improving. 

Bottom line I like to stay in emotional & mental control at all times. That's just how I'm wired.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 1, 2022)

"Here we go again……So Christians ultimately have to suppress common sense and knowledge? We’re really no different than you - we all believe we are right and can’t prove it to other. If we could we wouldn’t be here." - spot lite

I'm not saying you or all believers necessarily have to suppress common sense and knowledge, so let me clear something up please:

Personally, I would have to suppress my own common sense and suspend disbelief to really convince myself that the Bible doesn't conflict with reality as I know it and believe it. 
I would have to lie to myself, to say that 2 + 3 = 6 when I know it doesn't. Once I've proven facts to myself * I can't put the genie back in the bottle. 
Science doesn't solve everything, but it trumps religion hands down. There are hundreds of religions but only one truth. All the different religions can't be right, can they? Thus, the absolute truth can't be found in religion, only absolute opinions. 

Bottom line science has questions that can't be answered (yet) but religion has answers that can't be questioned. That's just how I see it.

* if I discover information that proves me wrong, I'll accept that and adjust my thinking accordingly. But so far 2 + 3 = 5 until proven otherwise.


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## Spotlite (Jul 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I see a comparison here. While not the same thing at all *- no disrespect intended* - but I still see a comparison between what you are trying to explain and what drug users try to explain to me, the non-drug user.   The terminology like "an undeniable experience" "nothing that can explain it" "science can't mimic it" etc.
> And to be honest both of these things are in their own way mind altering, based on emotions & feelings, wide open to misinterpreting reality, self-delusional, and possibly mental performance degrading versus improving.
> 
> Bottom line I like to stay in emotional & mental control at all times. That's just how I'm wired.


I hear what you’re saying, but again, your analogy isn’t really accurate - there’s absolutely nothing mind altering about Christianity. 

It’s like the ugly chick that never found love trying to explain what love is / isn’t to those who’ve found it.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I hear what you’re saying, but again, your analogy isn’t really accurate - there’s absolutely nothing mind altering about Christianity.
> 
> It’s like the ugly chick that never found love trying to explain what love is / isn’t to those who’ve found it.



We'll have to agree to disagree about "mind altering".  Throwing out everything I know (granted I'm no genius) concerning basic math, biology, geology, physics, etc. and believing what I know is fiction but I'll just "take it on faith" and believe it anyway is indeed altering my mind, and not in a good way. And from a moral standpoint I don't feel good about lying to myself - or deluding myself - forcing myself in general - just to be able to pretend to believe things I can logically prove to be false, just to stay on God's good side so I don't get tortured for eternity. 

"Love me and maybe I won't hurt you" isn't a fair & loving way to run a universe IMHO. It's what a bullying psychotic husband says to his battered wife. 

Again, this is just my own personal viewpoint and I believe in freedom of religion as long as it doesn't violate state & federal laws.


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## RegularJoe (Jul 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> ... It’s an undeniable experience,
> something that happens to you and there’s absolutely nothing in any encyclopedia, history book, research, etc. that can explain it. ....


Yeah, Spot, for me, it made some, but not a whole lot of sense, until I _tried_ it 
(consistently, I spose, with John 7:17,
wherein Christ is reported saying,
"Anyone who _chooses_* to do the will of God 
will find out whether my teaching 
comes from God or whether I speak on my own." - niv).  
For me, I *_choose_ to give it a _try_ ... 
it worked.


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## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree about "mind altering".  Throwing out everything I know (granted I'm no genius) concerning basic math, biology, geology, physics, etc. and believing what I know is fiction but I'll just "take it on faith" and believe it anyway is indeed altering my mind, and not in a good way. And from a moral standpoint I don't feel good about lying to myself - or deluding myself - forcing myself in general - just to be able to pretend to believe things I can logically prove to be false, just to stay on God's good side so I don't get tortured for eternity.
> 
> "Love me and maybe I won't hurt you" isn't a fair & loving way to run a universe IMHO. It's what a bullying psychotic husband says to his battered wife.
> 
> Again, this is just my own personal viewpoint and I believe in freedom of religion as long as it doesn't violate state & federal laws.


You ever heard the song “I did it my way”? That’s you looking for God.

There’s no agree to disagree about when it comes to “mind altering” - you’re just wrong, not even comprehending what you’re disputing. The rest of your post validates that.

I can respect your choice but don’t try to turn religion into something it’s not with a false description. I’m even ok with your non belief but by making the statements above tells the world you’re not really secure in your choice and you’re constantly looking for validation.


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## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2022)

RegularJoe said:


> Yeah, Spot, for me, it made some, but not a whole lot of sense, until I _tried_ it
> (consistently, I spose, with John 7:17,
> wherein Christ is reported saying,
> "Anyone who _chooses_* to do the will of God
> ...


Yup. Those that try to do it their way don’t realize their biggest problem is “their way”.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> You ever heard the song “I did it my way”? That’s you looking for God.
> 
> There’s no agree to disagree about when it comes to “mind altering” - you’re just wrong, not even comprehending what you’re disputing. The rest of your post validates that.
> 
> I can respect your choice but don’t try to turn religion into something it’s not with a false description. I’m even ok with your non belief but by making the statements above tells the world you’re not really secure in your choice and you’re constantly looking for validation.



You are wrong (but also right sort of) and I will explain.
The phrase "secure in your choice" is not the same as "secure in your choices". I am "secure in my choice" that so far on this planet all holy books * are penned by humans for humans thus "I choose" not to believe in their divinity/truth. By default, that would include the Bible. But that is just one choice - where I gather my information - in one area of life. I make many choices daily in many different areas.

I am though "constantly looking for validation" in all people & things I engage with.
Most of us do want to know the accuracy, truthfulness, and effectiveness of the world we are part of. That's why everything should be viewed with healthy skepticism but with an open mind so we can make rational decisions. Without healthy skepticism we buy the Brooklyn Bridge. When something/someone proves to be invalid despite repeated examination by a variety of sources, then I accept the fact that it is indeed invalid until proven otherwise, most often by additional information brought into the examination process.

But more to the point, I am not "looking for God" but at the same time I'm not convinced_ that there couldn't_ _be_ a God because we've all been wrong before about countless things. And yes, I stand by the analogy of God being an abusive husband
because (according to the Bible anyway) the low-down dirty message is "love me or face eternal torture/might makes right" and I think humans - as flawed as we are - deserve to be treated better.

* if followers of other major religions are secure in their beliefs and find comfort, guidance, wisdom and most importantly absolute truth in their holy books and they feel that other religions are not the absolute truth, how would you determine that the Bible is the absolute truth? Granted holy books will make different claims because religions/cultures differ, but AFAIK the three biggest Abrahamic religions all defend their holy books as being the one true holy book. I'm sure many other religions do the same thing. This indicates to me that - so far at least - all the religions on the planet are manmade constructs, as are their holy books.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Yup. Those that try to do it their way don’t realize their biggest problem is “their way”.



But if there is only one way - "God's way" - for reading/studying the Bible then why are there so many interpretations and denominations in the Christian religion? 
If God is not "the author of confusion" I can only imagine what the Bible would be like if it were even more confusing and contradictory.


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## bullethead (Jul 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Yup. Those that try to do it their way don’t realize their biggest problem is “their way”.


I am fine with not having to overlook things that just do not make "god-sense" to me so that I am able to do it another way. No god has ever enlightened me about it's Will so any attempt at me doing something that I THINK is a God's Will is just as self serving as someone who tells me that they know what God's Will is.
God Wills a lot of different things depending upon who ya talk to


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## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> But if there is only one way - "God's way" - for reading/studying the Bible then why are there so many interpretations and denominations in the Christian religion?
> If God is not "the author of confusion" I can only imagine what the Bible would be like if it were even more confusing and contradictory.


We’ve acknowledged that man can be jacked up. The same Book tells you that men will pervert the Gospel and how / why things are confusing. An inspired Word is no longer inspired when one begins to twist it for their liking. I think most non believers think the Word reaches out and grabs you and says……it don’t work like that.


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## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> But if there is only one way - "God's way" - for reading/studying the Bible then why are there so many interpretations and denominations in the Christian religion?
> If God is not "the author of confusion" I can only imagine what the Bible would be like if it were even more confusing and contradictory.


Now on a side note concerning confusion and contradictions;

There are a couple threads happening upstairs and if one took the time to read EVERYTHING concerning the topic they’ll see that they are arguing over partial truth - an indicator of lack of complete study. That’s flesh and does not make the Bible confusing. People want to please their flesh and call studying as reading someone’s commentary and saying “this is all you gotta do” when scripture says there’s more to it than the verse you’re hanging your hat on. Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established. That means go see how many times times this subject is mentioned and see if you are omitting anything or adding to what you “think”

Good point you brought up - it’s fleshly desire, which also kills another argument that takes place.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 2, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I am fine with not having to overlook things that just do not make "god-sense" to me so that I am able to do it another way. No god has ever enlightened me about it's Will so any attempt at me doing something that I THINK is a God's Will is just as self serving as someone who tells me that they know what God's Will is.
> God Wills a lot of different things depending upon who ya talk to



Very true! And to make it more confusing, different gods tell people to do things.
Some fellas armed with boxcutters carried out Allah's will about 20 years ago, and things got hectic to say the least!


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> We’ve acknowledged that man can be jacked up. The same Book tells you that men will pervert the Gospel and how / why things are confusing. An inspired Word is no longer inspired when one begins to twist it for their liking. I think most non believers think the Word reaches out and grabs you and says……it don’t work like that.



It seems then that you the reader would have no way to tell if you are reading "Inspired Word" or not because it could be God or it could be your own imagination giving you special insight.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Now on a side note concerning confusion and contradictions;
> 
> There are a couple threads happening upstairs and if one took the time to read EVERYTHING concerning the topic they’ll see that they are arguing over partial truth - an indicator of lack of complete study. That’s flesh and does not make the Bible confusing. People want to please their flesh and call studying as reading someone’s commentary and saying “this is all you gotta do” when scripture says there’s more to it than the verse you’re hanging your hat on. Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established. That means go see how many times times this subject is mentioned and see if you are omitting anything or adding to what you “think”
> 
> Good point you brought up - it’s fleshly desire, which also kills another argument that takes place.



I totally don't see the "fleshly desire" angle in any of this
*  but I will say gathering two or three witnesses to discuss a subject is a smart idea. It's always good to get another set of eyes on anything you are unsure of.

* how does "pleasing the flesh" affect the possible contradiction of Jesus riding one or two donkeys at the same time in the parade or whatever?


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## bullethead (Jul 2, 2022)

People are "inspired" by authors who were "inspired" and it is tough to figure out which meaning of inspired fits each.


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## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> It seems then that you the reader would have no way to tell if you are reading "Inspired Word" or not because it could be God or it could be your own imagination giving you special insight.


I can see that point. I’m not naïve in thinking that that’s ^^^ not a real thing to consider. Thetas exactly why a person should study more than one verse or chapter about something. 

I’m not going to read the Bible and walk away thinking I can do things that scripture forbids - the “spirit lord isn’t going to tell me to go drink poison. Although I know what it says, I know what the entire story says - I can’t tempt God, but IF I accidentally drank something I got nothing to worry about. 

And I’m not going to walk away thinking I can omit something when there is nothing else that lines up with that. And yea, I know what scripture says about killing, slavery, etc. A private interpretation doesn’t exist and a private interpretation is based on “Paul says”. Paul didn’t preach a different doctrine than Peter did. 

I also know what the rest of it says concerning who it was for and why - the covenants, curses, judgement, etc. and the repentance that removed it.


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## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I totally don't see the "fleshly desire" angle in any of this
> *  but I will say gathering two or three witnesses to discuss a subject is a smart idea. It's always good to get another set of eyes on anything you are unsure of.
> 
> * how does "pleasing the flesh" affect the possible contradiction of Jesus riding one or two donkeys at the same time in the parade or whatever?


So who’s it contradictory to? Explain what you’re asking.


----------



## WaltL1 (Jul 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> We’ve acknowledged that man can be jacked up. The same Book tells you that men will pervert the Gospel and how / why things are confusing. An inspired Word is no longer inspired when one begins to twist it for their liking. I think most non believers think the Word reaches out and grabs you and says……it don’t work like that.


Your position is dependant on there having been no "man perversion" or "jacked up" in the creation of the Bible. I think history shows man's hands are all over the Bible.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Your position is dependant on there having been no "man perversion" or "jacked up" in the creation of the Bible. I think history shows man's hands are all over the Bible.


Good point but as I’ve said before there’s something individually that happens that man has yet to touch, not been able to mimic, or create - has nothing to with descriptions of feel good tear jerking emotional moments. It’s more than saying “I confess” or “believe”. There are parts of the Bible man just can undo.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 2, 2022)

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religious-experience/


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## bullethead (Jul 2, 2022)

https://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/03/ten-reasons-humans-created-religion/


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> So who’s it contradictory to? Explain what you’re asking.



Did Jesus Ride into Jerusalem on One Donkey or Two? | Reluctant Xtian 

so which is it, one or two donkeys? It depends on which gospel you read. Most likely the two-donkey version was trying to tie Jesus triumphant return to a story or poem about Zechariah. Regardless, this segment is interesting concerning believers who declare that the Bible is totally without error. That said this is what keeps professional Christian & atheist apologetics paying the bills! 

"If your church teaches the infallibility or inerrancy of the Scriptures, send your pastor this blog and ask them to defend the position.  They will come up lacking; there is no defense."


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## bullethead (Jul 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Did Jesus Ride into Jerusalem on One Donkey or Two? | Reluctant Xtian
> 
> so which is it, one or two donkeys? It depends on which gospel you read. Most likely the two-donkey version was trying to tie Jesus triumphant return to a story or poem about Zechariah. Regardless, this segment is interesting concerning believers who declare that the Bible is totally without error. That said this is what keeps professional Christian & atheist apologetics paying the bills!
> 
> "If your church teaches the infallibility or inerrancy of the Scriptures, send your pastor this blog and ask them to defend the position.  They will come up lacking; there is no defense."


There are good cases made that the authors of some of the NT were very unfamiliar with Jewish traditions,  customs and ways.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 2, 2022)

bullethead said:


> https://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/03/ten-reasons-humans-created-religion/



reason #7 is the Old Testament in a nutshell!  Every culture needs an "origin story" so you better come out guns blazing, and they didn't hold anything back!

Side note nearly every - single - time they show a picture of Noah's Ark they show 
animals like giraffes, elephants, & camels.  Enough with the low-hanging fruit! 
Let's see penguins, kangaroos, porcupines, three-toed sloths, and pandas!


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 2, 2022)

bullethead said:


> There are good cases made that the authors of some of the NT were very unfamiliar with Jewish traditions,  customs and ways.



In one way that's weird, because most of them would have been Jews themselves. 
But on the other hand, it makes sense because there were plenty of different cultures in the area under Roman occupation.


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## bullethead (Jul 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> In one way that's weird, because most of them would have been Jews themselves.
> But on the other hand, it makes sense because there were plenty of different cultures in the area under Roman occupation.


Since "Matthew" is anonymous there is no telling who he was, what he was or where he was located.


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## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Did Jesus Ride into Jerusalem on One Donkey or Two? | Reluctant Xtian
> 
> so which is it, one or two donkeys? It depends on which gospel you read. Most likely the two-donkey version was trying to tie Jesus triumphant return to a story or poem about Zechariah. Regardless, this segment is interesting concerning believers who declare that the Bible is totally without error. That said this is what keeps professional Christian & atheist apologetics paying the bills!
> 
> "If your church teaches the infallibility or inerrancy of the Scriptures, send your pastor this blog and ask them to defend the position.  They will come up lacking; there is no defense."


To begin with, he says he don’t need to defend your confusion. You created your own lost world with doubt lol……..and you’re not even sure you’re right or you wouldn’t be here still digging to see if you might have missed something. He says he hasn’t tried to see what he missed with Allah since 1955, the year he was born.

So where is that it says he rode in two at one time, rode one half way, then rode the other or wasn’t supposed to ride both at one time?

So if my wife told you Joe and his kids dropped by, later that day I told you Joe dropped by and didn’t mention the kids your “logic” says one of us is wrong???

How many eye witness accounts match word for word? How many scientists disagree yet you still have confidence in them?

So riding two at once is impossible in your world??


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## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2022)

BTW old fella. I rode two 4 wheelers down my drive way today. Two. I came down the driveway on both and rode right up in my barn on both.

That’s not a trick scenario, it’s a true story. My driveway is 980 foot, my barn is another 100 from the house.

With your logic and good critical thinking, tell me how many ways I can do that then I’ll tell you exactly how I did it.

Hint - it was all done at the same time, no this morning and this evening stuff.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> To begin with, he says he don’t need to defend your confusion. You created your own lost world with doubt lol……..and you’re not even sure you’re right or you wouldn’t be here still digging to see if you might have missed something. He says he hasn’t tried to see what he missed with Allah since 1955, the year he was born.
> 
> So where is that it says he rode in two at one time, rode one half way, then rode the other or wasn’t supposed to ride both at one time?
> 
> ...



Is it_ likely _(agree it's not impossible) that Jesus would ride two donkeys at a time?
Does performing rodeo tricks fit Jesus' character? Is it_ likely _that Jesus would ride one donkey then switch out to the spare donkey for no apparent reason? Is it _likely_ that two other gospels are mistaken saying that Jesus only rode one donkey? Or is it_ more likely_ that the author of Mattew was attempting to retrofit the two-donkey riding to OT prophecy of Zechariah? The Bible has a track record of retrofitting scripture to match/fulfill prophecy.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> BTW old fella. I rode two 4 wheelers down my drive way today. Two. I came down the driveway on both and rode right up in my barn on both.
> 
> That’s not a trick scenario, it’s a true story. My driveway is 980 foot, my barn is another 100 from the house.
> 
> ...



apples and oranges. You currently exist and you are IMHO a reliable witness to the claim you make. There are not two of your neighbors offering an account of your claim differing from your claim. You are not motivated to possibly alter your claim story to match a prophecy. Your story is not part of a collection of other stories that got edited and compiled by anonymous people with an agenda.


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## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> apples and oranges. You currently exist and you are IMHO a reliable witness to the claim you make. There are not two of your neighbors offering an account of your claim differing from your claim. You are not motivated to possibly alter your claim story to match a prophecy. Your story is not part of a collection of other stories that got edited and compiled by anonymous people with an agenda.


Yeah but you can’t honestly say God doesn’t. 

My neighbors may not tell you word for word but ok. I get the feeling you knew you were about to paint yourself in a corner ?? 

But I’ll ask again where does it say he ride both at the same time??

And, happpy 4th!! I’m going to be smoking pig meat all night. Always fun shooting the bull with ya bud.


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## Spotlite (Jul 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Is it_ likely _(agree it's not impossible) that Jesus would ride two donkeys at a time?
> Does performing rodeo tricks fit Jesus' character? Is it_ likely _that Jesus would ride one donkey then switch out to the spare donkey for no apparent reason? Is it _likely_ that two other gospels are mistaken saying that Jesus only rode one donkey? Or is it_ more likely_ that the author of Mattew was attempting to retrofit the two-donkey riding to OT prophecy of Zechariah? The Bible has a track record of retrofitting scripture to match/fulfill prophecy.


Well they say He made a donkey talk, I figured if He wanted to ride both at a time that’s be ok. ?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Yeah but you can’t honestly say God doesn’t.
> 
> My neighbors may not tell you word for word but ok. I get the feeling you knew you were about to paint yourself in a corner ??
> 
> ...



I'm certainly not painted into a corner. My array of rational "more likely" questions speak for themselves. Bottom line it's very likely (highest odds) that the Mathew account differs from the other gospel accounts because the author of Mathew wanted to relate riding two donkeys to jive with a prior prophecy. 

My comparison of your ATV story to the Bible story is all about *agenda & motivation.* You aren't trying to alter or emphasize your story to fit into an overall bigger & preconceived narrative. The Mathew author however was IMHO doing this. 
But that's just my "takeaway" from the gospel differences as evaluated using my personal worldview.


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## Kisatchie (Jul 2, 2022)

What proof do you have that the disciples did not write any of the New Testament? Someone told you? 
One thing is for certain this is not like politics where everyone has an opinion. There is absolutely right or wrong. And if you don’t believe anything, believe this. You WILL stand before THE GOD of all creation and answer for yourself. And he wont be a Muslim and he won’t be Buddha...you can count on it. 
That’s why I can’t help but laugh at those that profess to be Atheists etc. You don’t have to believe in gravity to find out it’s real lol. And you will most certainly find out.


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## WaltL1 (Jul 3, 2022)

Kisatchie said:


> What proof do you have that the disciples did not write any of the New Testament? Someone told you?
> One thing is for certain this is not like politics where everyone has an opinion. There is absolutely right or wrong. And if you don’t believe anything, believe this. You WILL stand before THE GOD of all creation and answer for yourself. And he wont be a Muslim and he won’t be Buddha...you can count on it.
> That’s why I can’t help but laugh at those that profess to be Atheists etc. You don’t have to believe in gravity to find out it’s real lol. And you will most certainly find out.


yawn


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 3, 2022)

Kisatchie said:


> What proof do you have that the disciples did not write any of the New Testament? Someone told you?
> One thing is for certain this is not like politics where everyone has an opinion. There is absolutely right or wrong. And if you don’t believe anything, believe this. You WILL stand before THE GOD of all creation and answer for yourself. And he wont be a Muslim and he won’t be Buddha...you can count on it.
> That’s why I can’t help but laugh at those that profess to be Atheists etc. You don’t have to believe in gravity to find out it’s real lol. And you will most certainly find out.



This may not be like politics, but it is indeed about opinions. You state that your God is the only true god but since followers of other religions make the same claim - that claim being _their_ god is the only true god - why should _your_ opinion mean more to me than their opinion? You have no more proof of your claim than they do. 

Thus, how can you determine that when I (or yourself) stand before God that it_ won't_ be the Islamic God? Millions of Muslims have an opinion similar to yours, but of course the evidence forming their opinion is the Quran.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 3, 2022)

Fair enough points, now allow me to respond and possibly flip (or tweak) the script a bit in no particular order if I may:

What proof do _you _have (outside of the Bible) that the disciples_ did _write any of the NT? And assuming that the disciples did write some of the NT (it's very possible that they did) how do _you _know they are telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Much of the Bible reads like fiction to me. If Christianity employs professional academically degreed apologetics to explain the perceived contradictions, mistakes, inconsistencies, inaccuracies, etc. then apparently a lot of non-believers and even confused believers have a lot of questions & problems with the Bible. It would seem that perhaps that God is "the author of confusion" since allegedly the Bible is his divinely inspired book.

I never said "everyone is equal" but from my aspect all _religions _are equal. And by "equal" I mean based on human imaginations. For example, I don't follow pro football
thus the Cowboys, the Dolphins, the Browns, etc. are all equal/the same to me.

As for discussing other religions, I don't have much of a background in them or first-hand experience with them. I was born & raised around people who mainly had backgrounds in various Christian denominations. As an adult I have lived and worked among people following different religions, so I have been exposed to these religions but am not as familiar with them as I am Christianity.

That said of course the internet can provide facts & opinions on any subject, so why not religion? I see nothing wrong with researching what other people think because what I think might just be an opinion and not a fact until I see what input other people have about the subject. I want to hear what people who don't necessarily think like me - but have more expertise in the subject - have to say.

Bottom line even if the four disciples MML&J didn't write the four gospels (they are named that way by church tradition) they very well could have written some of the NT since somebody had to write it, since it exists. But is it true and accurate? 

I don't need the internet to have a basic "worldview" but again, my worldview is my collective opinions, experiences, reasoning ability and style, etc. just like the worldview of every other human. Here is the* basic framework *of why I don't believe in the God of the Bible and why I formed the views I have long before the internet:

1. Evolution is real because I can see it all around me. We can actually see it happen within our lifetimes with very basic forms of life that have a fast reproduction rate like microbes, viruses, insects, etc. etc. The more complicated the form of life (and the lower the reproductive rate) the longer it takes for any one species to change to the point where they cannot successfully reproduce with other similar species. Thus God creating all the species we have on the world in one "creation" event doesn't make sense which leads me to my next point.

2. There are many MILLIONS of species of animals & birds and they all could not have fit on one boat. It's basic math. All these many millions could not have evolved from the number of animals & birds that could have fit & survived on the ark because evolution on such a major scale cannot happen in a few thousand years.

3. I can see that the older human(ish) skulls have a smaller brain capacity than our current fully modern human skulls. Even if scientific dating isn't exactly accurate (there are now several methods of dating) the basic trend of old skulls = smaller brain but new skulls = larger brain - and many skulls have been found spanning millions of years - indicates to me that there were no two "first fully formed & functional homo sapiens" in a garden of Eden.

4. Humans love to tell stories! Because we have evolved incredibly powerful brains one of our brain features is imagination & creativity. Because people love to invent, tell, and spread stories of all types, some will be factual & some will be fiction.
Regardless, our human memories are not 100 percent accurate. And our intentions are not always pure, or beneficial even if our intentions start out pure. Stories change over time and the more fingers in the pie, the more the stories change.
Bottom line since the Bible is at its heart* a collection of stories *- many sharing themes of older stories from various cultures - developed by one tribe living in the Levant region a few thousand years ago.

5. There are about as many religions as there are cultures. Most claim that their religion is the one true religion, and their version of how the universe (or our species at least) came to be is the correct version. They can't all be correct in their thinking, can they? The logical alternative would be none of them are correct, and since none of them have any more actual hard evidence outside their books that claim they are correct than any of the other religions, none are valid IMHO. So it's not just about choosing to follow the "one true religion" if none of them can be proven true (so far).

I think this pretty much covers my general worldview & attitude concerning religion.


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## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Fair enough points, now allow me to respond and possibly flip (or tweak) the script a bit in no particular order if I may:
> 
> What proof do _you _have (outside of the Bible) that the disciples_ did _write any of the NT? And assuming that the disciples did write some of the NT (it's very possible that they did) how do _you _know they are telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Much of the Bible reads like fiction to me. If Christianity employs professional academically degreed apologetics to explain the perceived contradictions, mistakes, inconsistencies, inaccuracies, etc. then apparently a lot of non-believers and even confused believers have a lot of questions & problems with the Bible. It would seem that perhaps that God is "the author of confusion" since allegedly the Bible is his divinely inspired book.
> 
> ...


Actually, I didn’t like my post because it can appear offensive and that’s not my goal.

I see your point with all of the “impossible tasks” - my only comment is yea I can see what you’re saying. I see them as impossible outside of God. We don’t deny evolution, we just deny the idea that it didn’t start with God.

Christians keep hearing “we took it one God further” from non believers. We question that because you continue to compare them while you never spend time trying to debunk them. We don’t consider them valid, we don’t even think about them, we really took it one God further. How much did you spend debunking Allah this week? How much time did you spend debunking God? Why with just the one if He is ruled out like the rest?

I have no comment on the “confusion” - I’m not confused by the story. What you see as contradictory, I see as an opportunity to stick “I think” in there. You had an opportunity to prove Jesus could not ride two donkeys at once or at least prove where it said he rode both at once but “logic” wasn’t the motive.

We are ok with your non belief but when you start using words such as evidence / facts we want to see it - not what you believe to be true based on what is commonly agreed on that’s built on an assumption and subject to change. Facts don’t change.

I’m not convinced that all scientist are wrong because a few are. Religion isn’t any different.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 3, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Actually, I didn’t like my post because it can appear offensive and that’s not my goal.
> 
> I see your point with all of the “impossible tasks” - my only comment is yea I can see what you’re saying. I see them as impossible outside of God. We don’t deny evolution, we just deny the idea that it didn’t start with God.
> 
> ...



 "How much did you spend debunking Allah this week? How much time did you spend debunking God? Why with just the one?" 

 I thought I explained that, but you may have missed it. Here it is again:

"As for discussing other religions, I don't have much of a background in them or first-hand experience with them. I was born & raised around people who mainly had backgrounds in various Christian denominations. As an adult I have lived and worked among people following different religions, so I have been exposed to these religions but am not as familiar with them as I am Christianity." - oldfella

As for the two-donkey riding you missed the point. Theoretically Jesus or anyone else could probably learn to ride four donkeys at a time if they practiced enough.
*My point was* the author of Mathew was trying to link Jesus riding two donkeys with a prophecy he misunderstood in Zechariah 9:9. To be fair, Zechariah 9:9 does NOT make it clear! It would be easy to misinterpret this. However, it is just one example of the NT authors trying to link NT events with OT prophecy. Why would the NT authors do this? Possibly to better legitimize their claims, but who knows? 
But they did it quite a few times, and I can list examples if you are interested.

"The prophecy being quoted is Zechariah 9:9. Its writer was using repetition as a form of emphasis, as biblical translations like the American Standard Version make clear: “Behold, thy king cometh unto thee… riding upon an ***, even upon a colt the foal of an ***.” But Matthew’s misreading of this verse led him to believe that it prophesied the king would come riding on two animals at once."


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## whitter (Jul 3, 2022)

Somewhere back in recent history there was a saying. "someone is full of blue mud".


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 3, 2022)

whitter said:


> Somewhere back in recent history there was a saying. "someone is full of blue mud".



 Blue mud? Okay, you forced my hand. Now I'll have to google it!

The only blue mud reference I could find is it's a deep-sea sediment of silt & clay. Can somebody help me out here?


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## whitter (Jul 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Blue mud? Okay, you forced my hand. Now I'll have to google it!


https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=full of blue mud


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## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> "How much did you spend debunking Allah this week? How much time did you spend debunking God? Why with just the one?"
> 
> I thought I explained that, but you may have missed it. Here it is again:
> 
> ...


No I didn’t miss it lol. That very same language about the donkey comes from a commentary on the WWW. I realize you agree with it, but it’s not a proven anything. For every one of those, there’s another disputing it and vice versa.


Ok on other religions but it does question how and why you ruled them out without a basic understanding of them.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

Allah, Yahweh, God = Same God. They are all the same Old Testament God. Dismissing one is dismissing them all.


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## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Allah, Yahweh, God = Same God. They are all the same Old Testament God. Dismissing one is dismissing them all.


Not when you argue that you have to consider Allah, and the thousands of others  as a god when you consider God.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Not when you argue that you have to consider Allah, and the thousands of others  as a god when you consider God.


Each of them are the God of Abraham.  All( Judiasm,Christianity and Islam) are the major three Abrahamic Religions.
Their theologies differ after that.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 3, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> No I didn’t miss it lol. That very same language about the donkey comes from a commentary on the WWW. I realize you agree with it, but it’s not a proven anything. For every one of those, there’s another disputing it and vice versa.
> 
> 
> Ok on other religions but it does question how and why you ruled them out without a basic understanding of them.



I have a very_ basic _understanding of some different religions. I had Muslims/Jews in my units in the military. I've met a few Wiccans in the military. I've dealt with civilian Muslims in Bosnia and Iraq/Kuwait. 
I've had brief discussions about Buddhism in Korea, and my wife's nephew is Buddhist.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Each of them are the God of Abraham.  All( Judiasm,Christianity and Islam) are the major three Abrahamic Religions.
> Their theologies differ after that.



And once you get into Islam there are HUGE variations on their level of - shall we say - intensity!  Muslims in Bosnia aren't the head-chopping "Death to America!" cover up their women type of Muslims. Bosnia happened to get taken over by the Ottomans/Turks centuries ago, so they pretty much had it forced upon them, so they just rolled with the punches. Same with Somalia in Africa with the Arabs spreading Islam. But most of the sandbox Muslims (and some in various parts of Africa) are a whole different animal, as the Taliban & Al Quida can attest to!


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 3, 2022)

Been interesting reading through all the post. Interesting on many levels. 1, This takes time... time to field all the responses, etc. I'm glad that the one side takes interest enough to keep conversation going. As I see it, the non believers know the arguments well. The other side should acknowledge that the arguments are justified. Using the bible to prove itself is a weak argument.

Luke gave us indication of how it was put together. It was loaded with context. "Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things just as they were Handed down to us who from the first were eyewitnesses. No eyewitness wrote any books. It was handed down. Then recorded. Per this text. Luke  should have been familiar if it were otherwise. I believe his assumption is due to his own perspective of when he wrote this.  We are studying handed down info, how many generations, I don't know. Does not invalidate the info. But does explain the embellishments


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## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Each of them are the God of Abraham.  All( Judiasm,Christianity and Islam) are the major three Abrahamic Religions.
> Their theologies differ after that.


I used to think that as a possibility but I’m not convinced that’s true.


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## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I have a very_ basic _understanding of some different religions. I had Muslims/Jews in my units in the military. I've met a few Wiccans in the military. I've dealt with civilian Muslims in Bosnia and Iraq/Kuwait.
> I've had brief discussions about Buddhism in Korea, and my wife's nephew is Buddhist.


Buddhism is one I’ve never encountered personally. Only thing I know about that one is what I can find on the WWW.


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 3, 2022)

I honestly don't agree with Bart here on this left on the cross point. I have noticed how the NT writers try to solve problems. Or make Jesus fit OT prophesy. I won't point them out because anyone worth a response knows of several. If this had been the case, a known Roman practice, the NT writers would have solved it in the story line. Bart has studied history way back as a credible  historian, but as he will acknowledge, we are working from old writings that are usually not dated. I will have to stick to what the NT writers knew from their perspective. Even though it was likely generations after the fact, I still think they would be more accurate than Bart's assessment into antiquity.


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 3, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> I honestly don't agree with Bart here on this left on the cross point. I have noticed how the NT writers try to solve problems. Or make Jesus fit OT prophesy. I won't point them out because anyone worth a response knows of several. If this had been the case, a known Roman practice, the NT writers would have solved it in the story line. Bart has studied history way back as a credible  historian, but as he will acknowledge, we are working from old writings that are usually not dated. I will have to stick to what the NT writers knew from their perspective. Even though it was likely generations after the fact, I still think they would be more accurate than Bart's assessment into antiquity.


LOL, maybe not though. The writer of Matthew clearly did not know the lingo of the time in which he wrote about. If I were to say I rode a wave, a big wave, today, the assumption, my surf board, was it one wave or two at once.? He should have known the lingo of that time period, but did not.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I used to think that as a possibility but I’m not convinced that’s true.


The descendants of Abraham and his Concubine (His wife was unable to conceive at first so God granted him a Concubine) and then Wife (God rewarded her with a Son later) are the bloodlines in each of the three religions.
If you believe in the God of Abraham, Abraham, and the storyline then you have no convincing needed....just some information about Islam and it's roots.


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 3, 2022)

I know I stand alone on this. And some will assume it's required  theology. But I don't need a bodily resurrection of Jesus. If the tomb still has his body, makes no difference to me. Not saying that I dismiss the resurrection story, but  why should Jesus be any different than the hope the rest of us have. Our bodies will remain in the ground. No one will see me walking around in various forms. I will not appear to anybody. My faith is that he was raised from the dead and is now in heaven with God in an Garden of Eden, second Adam , scenario. Those stories could be embellishments, and it would change nothing regarding my faith. I may be wrong, but I would predict that 90% would say this is a requirement  and may even be stated in some Christian Creeds.


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Where can we learn more about these 3000+ people and their versions of what they saw?



Would over 500 be satisfactory?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 3, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> I know I stand alone on this. And some will assume it's required  theology. But I don't need a bodily resurrection of Jesus. If the tomb still has his body, makes no difference to me. Not saying that I dismiss the resurrection story, but  why should Jesus be any different than the hope the rest of us have. Our bodies will remain in the ground. No one will see me walking around in various forms. I will not appear to anybody. My faith is that he was raised from the dead and is now in heaven with God in an Garden of Eden, second Adam , scenario. Those stories could be embellishments, and it would change nothing regarding my faith. I may be wrong, but I would predict that 90% would say this is a requirement  and may even be stated in some Christian Creeds.


I remember a Preterist member on here that held the view that we will not resurrect in a physical body. That the reason Jesus did was to show that a resurrection actually took place. That or something along the lines of Jesus just having a spiritual resurrection and our resurrection will be when we die and go to Heaven as a spirit. Like why come back for a human body if we are already in Heaven? It does seem like it is one or the other for us, either a spiritual one or a physical one.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The descendants of Abraham and his Concubine (His wife was unable to conceive at first so God granted him a Concubine) and then Wife (God rewarded her with a Son later) are the bloodlines in each of the three religions.
> If you believe in the God of Abraham, Abraham, and the storyline then you have no convincing needed....just some information about Islam and it's roots.


What was the third one? Abraham remarried after the death of Sarah and had a total of three wives: Sarah, Hagar, and Keturah.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 3, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> Been interesting reading through all the post. Interesting on many levels. 1, This takes time... time to field all the responses, etc. I'm glad that the one side takes interest enough to keep conversation going. As I see it, the non believers know the arguments well. The other side should acknowledge that the arguments are justified. Using the bible to prove itself is a weak argument.
> 
> Luke gave us indication of how it was put together. It was loaded with context. "Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things just as they were Handed down to us who from the first were eyewitnesses. No eyewitness wrote any books. It was handed down. Then recorded. Per this text. Luke  should have been familiar if it were otherwise. I believe his assumption is due to his own perspective of when he wrote this.  We are studying handed down info, how many generations, I don't know. Does not invalidate the info. But does explain the embellishments



Okay when you said that Luke says he is not an eyewitness, of course I had to research it further! Imagine my surprise that there are different opinions on what he _really _meant.  But I didn't realize that one of the gospel authors (same "Luke" right? It's not a given) claimed that he was not an eyewitness, but he's getting his information from an eyewitness - if I'm understanding it properly. 

And as expected some Christian apologetics say Luke _was_ an eyewitness even though Luke himself says otherwise.......or does he?  But hey, that's what apologetics are supposed to do. 

Good call on stating that using the Bible to prove itself is weak sauce. Granted the Bible might be the best or possibly the only source of information and evidence, but rules are rules - you can't use a book about itself to be an unbiased reference for itself.


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Did Jesus Ride into Jerusalem on One Donkey or Two? | Reluctant Xtian
> 
> so which is it, one or two donkeys? It depends on which gospel you read. Most likely the two-donkey version was trying to tie Jesus triumphant return to a story or poem about Zechariah. Regardless, this segment is interesting concerning believers who declare that the Bible is totally without error. That said this is what keeps professional Christian & atheist apologetics paying the bills!
> 
> "If your church teaches the infallibility or inerrancy of the Scriptures, send your pastor this blog and ask them to defend the position.  They will come up lacking; there is no defense."



It's very simple. The phrase "..they set him thereon." refers to the garments they placed on the colt. Where does it state that he rode both donkeys?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 3, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I remember a Preterist member on here that held the view that we will not resurrect in a physical body. That the reason Jesus did was to show that a resurrection actually took place. That or something along the lines of Jesus just having a spiritual resurrection and our resurrection will be when we die and go to Heaven as a spirit. Like why come back for a human body if we are already in Heaven? It does seem like it is one or the other for us, either a spiritual one or a physical one.



Interesting if not a popular theory! I thought I read something about this recently, but not by a GON member. I think it was some Biblical scholar or something like that. I may have saved the web page but I can't remember.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Would over 500 be satisfactory?


How about 10 recorded outside of the Bible? 5 if 10 are too many.
5 names and their versions of what they each saw.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> What was the third one? Abraham remarried after the death of Sarah and had a total of three wives: Sarah, Hagar, and Keturah.


Judiasm and Christianity use the same Son with Sarah


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> It's very simple. The phrase "..they set him thereon." refers to the garments they placed on the colt. Where does it state that he rode both donkeys?



This article posits that the author of Mathew was trying to link Jesus riding two donkeys to a prophecy in Zecharia or something, but the author misinterpreted the prophecy. It's a likely possibility, because the NT tries to link NT events to OT prophecy on several other occasions. 

Did Jesus Ride into Jerusalem on One Donkey or Two? | Reluctant Xtian


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 3, 2022)

The promise was through Abraham's firstborn son. Here is a major divergence. We believe that Issac was the firstborn because he was promised before Ishmael. Considering that anything God says is fact whether it has come to pass yet or not.  Abraham tried to fullfill God's promise by helping God out as if God needed help.  His attempt to help God was not held against him. Ishmael was blessed. But the promise, and those later to be called children of the promise, was as we believe, through Issac. Issac could say in bible terms, "Before Ishmael, I am" Seen it used that way elsewhere?


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> How about 10 recorded outside of the Bible? 5 if 10 are too many.
> 5 names and their versions of what they each saw.



They weren't there. If I offered 1,5,10,100, would it honestly make a difference to you?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:
The descendants of Abraham and his Concubine (His wife was unable to conceive at first so God granted him a Concubine) and then Wife (God rewarded her with a Son later) are the bloodlines in each of the three religions.

 God "granted him" a concubine? That's the family friendly version anyway. 
The OT is full of its heroes just snatching women off the street and raping them or abducting them against their will to be concubines or wives.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

https://www.abrahamicstudyhall.org/2017/04/04/abrahamic-religions-similarity-comparision/


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> This article posits that the author of Mathew was trying to link Jesus riding two donkeys to a prophecy in Zecharia or something, but the author misinterpreted the prophecy. It's a likely possibility, because the NT successfully links NT events to OT prophecy on several other occasions.
> 
> Did Jesus Ride into Jerusalem on One Donkey or Two? | Reluctant Xtian



"the author misinterpreted"- there's an understatement.

fixed it for ya


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> They weren't there. If I offered 1,5,10,100, would it honestly make a difference to you?


???
You asked if over 500 would be satisfactory. 
I reduced your workload and conceded 10 even going down to 5 if you cannot produce 10.

Are you unable to provide any now and are trying to place the blame on me?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> They weren't there. If I offered 1,5,10,100, would it honestly make a difference to you?



It sure would to me! It would to millions of people! Non-biased outside sources of evidence of_ any _level of reliability would be something to work with at least. Not saying evidence won't be found, but it hasn't been so far.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> bullethead said:
> The descendants of Abraham and his Concubine (His wife was unable to conceive at first so God granted him a Concubine) and then Wife (God rewarded her with a Son later) are the bloodlines in each of the three religions.
> 
> God "granted him" a concubine? That's the family friendly version anyway.
> The OT is full of its heroes just snatching women off the street and raping them or abducting them against their will to be concubines or wives.


He was allowed to partake of his servant. Abraham had a servant.


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> ???
> You asked if over 500 would be satisfactory.
> I reduced your workload and conceded 10 even going down to 5 if you cannot produce 10.
> 
> Are you unable to provide any now and are trying to place the blame on me?



No, actually you moved the goalposts.


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Okay when you said that Luke says he is not an eyewitness, of course I had to research it further! Imagine my surprise that there are different opinions on what he _really _meant.  But I didn't realize that one of the gospel authors (same "Luke" right? It's not a given) claimed that he was not an eyewitness, but he's getting his information from an eyewitness - if I'm understanding it properly.
> 
> And as expected some Christian apologetics say Luke _was_ an eyewitness even though Luke himself says otherwise.......or does he?  But hey, that's what apologetics are supposed to do.
> 
> Good call on stating that using the Bible to prove itself is weak sauce. Granted the Bible might be the best or possibly the only source of information and evidence, but rules are rules - you can't use a book about itself to be an unbiased reference for itself.


I think it tells us more.. No eyewitness writers. If there had been an eyewitness account written [such as John  being an eyewitness writer], he would not have worded it this way. First hand knowledge would trump his "careful investigation".


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 3, 2022)

The NT _successfully _links OT prophecy? That's one opinion anyway.
Here is an article listing what are perceived mistakes linking prophecy, with apologetic responses to the accusations which you may or may not agree with, or you may have your own ideas. Bible verses are listed for your own examination.
Interesting stuff! 

Some Mistakes of Scripture - Daylight Atheism (patheos.com)


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> No, actually you moved the goalposts.



 I think bullet head moved the goalpost_ in_ to give you a greater advantage! 
Sounds like a sweet deal for you.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Jul 3, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> I think it tells us more.. No eyewitness writers. If there had been an eyewitness account written [such as John  being an eyewitness writer], he would not have worded it this way. First hand knowledge would trump his "careful investigation".



Okay you totally lost me here.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> No, actually you moved the goalposts.


Oh, because I asked for an outside source to show that someone other than inside the pages of the Bible stories actually witnessed such things?
Truth invites scrutiny. Fabrication loathes it.
I understand your predicament.


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I think bullet head moved the goalpost_ in_ to give you a greater advantage!
> Sounds like a sweet deal for you.



No, actually he doesn't seem to want over 500 eyewitnesses.


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Oh, because I asked for an outside source to show that someone other than inside the pages of the Bible stories actually witnessed such things?
> Truth invites scrutiny. Fabrication loathes it.
> I understand your predicament.



I have no predicament.


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> The NT _successfully _links OT prophecy? That's one opinion anyway.
> Here is an article listing what are perceived mistakes linking prophecy, with apologetic responses to the accusations which you may or may not agree with, or you may have your own ideas. Bible verses are listed for your own examination.
> Interesting stuff!
> 
> Some Mistakes of Scripture - Daylight Atheism (patheos.com)



And there are literally dozens of books out there that make the case for the fulfillment of O.T.  prophecies in the N.T.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> No, actually he doesn't seem to want over 500 eyewitnesses.


Ok, use the contents of the Bible to show us who the witnesses were and the detailes of their stories.
Or am I supposed to be satisfied with some writer guessing a number and claiming they all saw the same thing?
*In fact I will lower your burden again and ask you to skip the first 500 and just post the names, really any info, about the amount that is "over" those first 500.

Using a source to somehow be evidence of itself is among the absolute weakest attempts of validation.
It is the equivalent of a police officer apprehending a bank robber wearing an "I didn't do it" t-shirt and then asking the the robber if he robbed the bank. The robber says no and I have proof while pointing to his t-shirt.

*edited to add


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## Ruger#3 (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Ok, use the contents of the Bible to show us who the witnesses were and the detailes of their stories.
> Or am I supposed to be satisfied with some writer guessing a number and claiming they all saw the same thing?
> *In fact I will lower your burden again and ask you to skip the first 500 and just post the names, really any info, about the amount that is "over" those first 500.
> 
> ...



Its an out of context argument from a literate society. The majority of the people of the time were illiterate. The records we find of anything that far back are miraculous in that they were both written done and the record survived. Great tradgedies such as cities of tens of thousands wiped out often have only one period document as evidence. Major portions of Christian history was lost when Jerusalem was destroyed. Who knows what history was lost.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Its an out of context argument from a literate society. The majority of the people of the time were illiterate. The records we find of anything that far back are miraculous in that they were both written done and the record survived. Great tradgedies such as cities of tens of thousands wiped out often have only one period document as evidence. Major portions of Christian was lost when Jerusalem was destroyed. Who knows what history was lost.


So there is no possible way that someone who was not Christian, literate and able to record such monumental events elsewhere outside of the bible ever did or that it could have survived and beat the same odds of survival that the NT writing have?
No resurrection
No earthquakes
No graves bursting open
Etc X a hundred.

Surley in a middle eastern mecca where people of all races, cultures, religions, political positions, scholars from other regions and foreign lands were present....NONE of their detailed recordings ever made it back home to be recorded and re-recorded like the ones in the bible have? No greater force would oversee and protect such a valued contemporary record that not only spreads the word but reinforces what said in only one place?
Not even a surviving menton that may differ slightly but corroborate that such events took place?
Nothing?
Just so happens that copies of copies of anonymous writers works made it which were originally written decades after such events happened to survive the flames of the very torches that turned everything else to ash????
That isn't odd at all.


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## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The descendants of Abraham and his Concubine (His wife was unable to conceive at first so God granted him a Concubine) and then Wife (God rewarded her with a Son later) are the bloodlines in each of the three religions.
> If you believe in the God of Abraham, Abraham, and the storyline then you have no convincing needed....just some information about Islam and it's roots.



I can see the similarities and can see where the 3 religions might view one Deity 3 different ways - similar to denominations if I’m thinking right?

But, on a side note; my wife and just watched Top Gun Maverick and it’s a must see!!!


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## Ruger#3 (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> So there is no possible way that someone who was not Christian, literate and able to record such monumental events elsewhere outside of the bible ever did or that it could have survived and beat the same odds of survival that the NT writing have?
> No resurrection
> No earthquakes
> No graves bursting open
> ...



How many records are there of an entire city wiped out by Mt Vesuvius, killing nearly 20,000. They were Romans fairly literate. So no not odd at all for the period.

The Dead Sea scrolls may have been an effort to preserve some of what was in Jerusalem, that’s a theory.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> No, actually he doesn't seem to want over 500 eyewitnesses.



Is there any actual* outside the bible evidence* of these 500 witnesses? The Bible says there is a list apparently. If the Bible is the only source then it might as well say there is a list of 50,000 people. Granted tracking down 500 (or any number) of witnesses after the fact would be a daunting task, no doubt about it. But that still doesn't excuse a lack of evidence of any sort.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> How many records are there of an entire city wiped out by Mt Vesuvius, killing nearly 20,000. They were Romans fairly literate. So no not odd at all for the period.
> 
> The Dead Sea scrolls may have been an effort to preserve some of what was in Jerusalem, that’s a theory.


How many of those records would be linked to an all powerful deity capable of ensuring their survival?

The dead sea scrolls were among a few writings of various early Christian sects that differed and agreed on things within Christianity. The Essenes were linked to the Dead Sea Scrolls. They consisted of about 4000 men who lived together away from other sects and probably near where their writings were found.


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 3, 2022)

As stated before, I don't need the resurrected body of Christ to rise and walk the earth to be seen. However.... Consider that.... it would be plausible that 500, give or take, could be an estimate based on rumors. Lots of claims could be estimated, and likely so. However, consider this. In several cases,, he appeared in a form they did not recognize. So, it would not be a stretch if word spread, and every stranger was credited as a "jesus sighting". Just a thought to consider in the mix


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 3, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> How many records are there of an entire city wiped out by Mt Vesuvius, killing nearly 20,000. They were Romans fairly literate. So no not odd at all for the period.
> 
> The Dead Sea scrolls may have been an effort to preserve some of what was in Jerusalem, that’s a theory.



New Pompeii evidence rewrites Vesuvius eruption history (phys.org) 

Eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD - Wikipedia 

 "More than 1,000 people are thought to have died in the eruption, though the exact toll is unknown. The only surviving eyewitness account of the event consists of two letters by Pliny the Younger to the historian Tacitus."


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

Some interesting info about the Dead Sea Scrolls
https://news.nd.edu/news/dead-sea-scrolls-yield-major-questions-in-old-testament-understanding/


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## Ruger#3 (Jul 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> New Pompeii evidence rewrites Vesuvius eruption history (phys.org)
> 
> Eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD - Wikipedia
> 
> "More than 1,000 people are thought to have died in the eruption, though the exact toll is unknown. The only surviving eyewitness account of the event consists of two letters by Pliny the Younger to the historian Tacitus."



Precisely, I’d venture there we’re others that didn’t survive


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> New Pompeii evidence rewrites Vesuvius eruption history (phys.org)
> 
> Eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD - Wikipedia
> 
> "More than 1,000 people are thought to have died in the eruption, though the exact toll is unknown. The only surviving eyewitness account of the event consists of two letters by Pliny the Younger to the historian Tacitus."


And the fact that Archeologists have found and Unearthed Pompei from under Mt Vesuvius's ashes is a pretty good indication of evidence.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> As stated before, I don't need the resurrected body of Christ to rise and walk the earth to be seen. However.... Consider that.... it would be plausible that 500, give or take, could be an estimate based on rumors. Lots of claims could be estimated, and likely so. However, consider this. In several cases,, he appeared in a form they did not recognize. So, it would not be a stretch if word spread, and every stranger was credited as a "jesus sighting". Just a thought to consider in the mix


These biblical excuses for matters of scrutiny are worthy of a collection all to themselves.
Jesus appearing in a form that could not be recognized is Gold!


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Ok, use the contents of the Bible to show us who the witnesses were and the detailes of their stories.
> Or am I supposed to be satisfied with some writer guessing a number and claiming they all saw the same thing?
> *In fact I will lower your burden again and ask you to skip the first 500 and just post the names, really any info, about the amount that is "over" those first 500.
> 
> ...



At the time that was written most of those 500 were still alive. Anyone who wished could go ask them personally.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> At the time that was written most of those 500 were still alive. Anyone who wished could go ask them personally.


Apparently nobody wished to do so.
I am almost positive that Jesus appeared to me in an unrecognizable way while I was on vacation.  Put me down as another reliable witness.


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Apparently nobody wished to do so.
> I am almost positive that Jesus appeared to me in an unrecognizable way while I was on vacation.  Put me down as another reliable witness.



Apparently you don’t know


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Is there any actual* outside the bible evidence* of these 500 witnesses? The Bible says there is a list apparently. If the Bible is the only source then it might as well say there is a list of 50,000 people. Granted tracking down 500 (or any number) of witnesses after the fact would be a daunting task, no doubt about it. But that still doesn't excuse a lack of evidence of any sort.



A list?


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Apparently you don’t know


We are all in that same boat with what little reliable information is available.


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

I’m in different boat.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> A list?


Nah, Oldfella is good. I am going to post the bombshell that ends all dispute.
*1 Corinthians 15:6 — King James Version (KJV 1900)*
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

BOOM!


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> I’m in different boat.


Riiiiiiight


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Nah, Oldfella is good. I am going to post the bombshell that ends all dispute.
> *1 Corinthians 15:6 — King James Version (KJV 1900)*
> 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
> 
> BOOM!



More like boom,  that’s a number not a list.


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## Kisatchie (Jul 3, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> This may not be like politics, but it is indeed about opinions. You state that your God is the only true god but since followers of other religions make the same claim - that claim being _their_ god is the only true god - why should _your_ opinion mean more to me than their opinion? You have no more proof of your claim than they do.
> 
> Thus, how can you determine that when I (or yourself) stand before God that it_ won't_ be the Islamic God? Millions of Muslims have an opinion similar to yours, but of course the evidence forming their opinion is the Quran.



Lol wait and see. 
There are very few certainties in life, this is  one of them. 

What I don’t understand about the atheist etc.( fill in the blank with whatever you want to call yourself). If you don’t believe in God and don’t believe in heaven or **** ...nothing after this life? Why  would you waste even a second if your time trying to convince others that God doesn’t exist? It makes zero sense. You have a very limited amount of time and then just nothing? So you sit in front of a computer spewing nonsense. Seems like you’d be using your time better lol. Me I’m good I got maybe 80-90 years here then I’m on to eternity. 

Good luck with your theory, you gonna need it.


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## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Nah, Oldfella is good. I am going to post the bombshell that ends all dispute.
> *1 Corinthians 15:6 — King James Version (KJV 1900)*
> 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
> 
> BOOM!


Where’s the BOOM? There was a few hundred folks we sold noon shine too. In 100 years there will not be a lick of knowledge about anything other than what I write.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> More like boom,  that’s a number not a list.


What else ya got?


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

What you already have doesn’t satisfy.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Where’s the BOOM? There was a few hundred folks we sold noon shine too. In 100 years there will not be a lick of knowledge about anything other than what I write.


That makes two of you who failed to see the sarcasm in my BOOM . I listed all the details given about the 500+.

You'll do history a favor by being specific now about your shine customers if you want to leave room for validation later.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> What you already have doesn’t satisfy.


I used scripture and I agree with your statement.


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## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> That makes two of you who failed to see the sarcasm in my BOOM . I listed all the details given about the 500+.
> 
> You'll do history a favor by being specific now about your shine customers if you want to leave room for validation later.


You know I’m slow so don’t go there. I’m writing but there’s nothing in the history books.


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I used scripture and I agree with your statement.


Used scripture for?


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

Paul’s boom blew right by you.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> You know I’m slow so don’t go there. I’m writing but there’s nothing in the history books.


You are the first step in documenting that history.
In your case, even though decades later, you can provide people, places, times and information that can still be acknowledged, verified, and expounded upon by other sources. Every extra verifiable source now backs up credibility later.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Paul’s boom blew right by you.


My bad, I was under the assumption that Paul wrote Corinthians.


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## Ruger#3 (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You are the first step in documenting that history.
> In your case, even though decades later, you can provide people, places, times and information that can still be acknowledged, verified, and expounded upon by other sources. Every extra verifiable source now backs up credibility later.



Your premise that history is facts has no merit. History is a study of documents, artifacts, and oral records past down through generations. From these an argument is made. Hence, we both can make differing argument from the same or similar facts, it often happens. History is not merely documentation.


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> My bad, I was under the assumption that Paul wrote Corinthians.


?


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Your premise that history is facts has no merit. History is a study of documents, artifacts, and oral records past down through generations. From these an argument is made. Hence, we both can make differing argument from the same or similar facts, it often happens. History is not merely documentation.


Agreed. But the more that can be verified the more factual it is.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> ?


I am not convinced that you are seeing my sarcasm.


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

I’m not sure you’re seeing Paul’s point


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> I’m not sure you’re seeing Paul’s point


Correct,  I do not see the point of Paul using inexact numbers of people without details of who these people are, what in fact they did see and also providing other sources of verification.


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> These biblical excuses for matters of scrutiny are worthy of a collection all to themselves.
> Jesus appearing in a form that could not be recognized is Gold!


that's a fair observation. After a point, the totality of them adds up. I see no reason that an agnostic should not scrutinize anything anyone is trying to sell them. I see it this way.... it's a good thing they tried to record what they knew when they did, otherwise it would have only gotten  worse.


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## Spotlite (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You are the first step in documenting that history.
> In your case, even though decades later, you can provide people, places, times and information that can still be acknowledged, verified, and expounded upon by other sources. Every extra verifiable source now backs up credibility later.


I think I’m just going to tell my Grandboys about it when they’re grown and let them write it. But that’ll mean it didn’t happen, right?


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## tell sackett (Jul 3, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Correct,  I do not see the point of Paul using inexact numbers of people without details of who these people are, what in fact they did see and also providing other sources of verification.



Would the exact number of 499 been better? Or 523? Just pick one. His whole point to the church at Corinth was that there were hundreds of eyewitnesses alive at that time. Anyone who cared to could ask them.


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 3, 2022)

Another thing to ponder. Paul says Jesus appeared to him. But this is not validated in it's true sense. He saw a bright light and took instruction from whom he assumed was Jesus. I would have to call that something other than "appearing". So this makes me question the 500 that supposedily saw him at the same time? What was he referring to? A visual appearing or other? And the text does read "at the same time" ???? Yet we have no record of this and what it was? Could this be Acts debut of the Holy Spirit ? Just something to think about while we are working this out


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I think I’m just going to tell my Grandboys about it when they’re grown and let them write it. But that’ll mean it didn’t happen, right?


Real people, real places real events mixed in with whatever memory that you'll have then will be compounded by what accuracy they retain and retell and the dilution will continue on down the line being replaced by Some real people,some real places and aome real events all being embellished a little to a lot to make the stories better.
Gen Custer died heroically as he dropped injuns while being the last man standing until he ran out bullets.
Or
He was one of the first to fall shot through the back.
You can believe either or any number of scenarios in between.


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## bullethead (Jul 3, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> Another thing to ponder. Paul says Jesus appeared to him. But this is not validated in it's true sense. He saw a bright light and took instruction from whom he assumed was Jesus. I would have to call that something other than "appearing". So this makes me question the 500 that supposedily saw him at the same time? What was he referring to? A visual appearing or other? And the text does read "at the same time" ???? Yet we have no record of this and what it was? Could this be Acts debut of the Holy Spirit ? Just something to think about while we are working this out


Heat Stroke is a viable option.


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## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Would the exact number of 499 been better? Or 523? Just pick one. His whole point to the church at Corinth was that there were hundreds of eyewitnesses alive at that time. Anyone who cared to could ask them.


Who exactly were they going to ask?
Did the over 500 get tshirts made up that said "I saw what Paul's talking about, just ask"?
Did the members of the Corinth church magically know who saw the resurrection? Was there a Resurrection information booth down town with a list of names?

Last week while on vacation around 300 people and I on the beach saw a man rise up about 50yds off shore and ascend skyward. Unless something tragic happened since, none of these witnesses are asleep today.
Go ask them what they saw.

I just wrote to you telling you of an event. How are you going to find any one of the "300ish" credible witnesses which by your standards make my story 100% true and accurate?


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## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Would the exact number of 499 been better? Or 523? Just pick one. His whole point to the church at Corinth was that there were hundreds of eyewitnesses alive at that time. Anyone who cared to could ask them.


Maybe Paul could have said:
1. Fred the Leper, illiterate,  lives down by the canal can tell you (at a distance of course) what he saw.
2. Dimitri Demyanovich the Greek govt representative who was at the market buying Figs from a Figurative Fig Tree, he and his entourage saw the whole thing. They rushed home to write it all down and then sailed back to Greece handing out copies to anyone and everyone telling that they had witnessed the Son of God come back from the dead.
3. 10 Roman soldiers who were in the area reported the event almost word for word to their commander who made an official report where it is on record in Rome. 
4. - 499 or 523 or even just 5 total can be of similar small details.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Jul 4, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> At the time that was written most of those 500 were still alive. Anyone who wished could go ask them personally.



Yet nobody took them up on the offer, or thought it was worth documenting?


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## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

The future Prince of Nigeria just sent me an email asking that if I sent him $10,000 to get him out of exile he will send me $10 Million next week when he takes the Throne.
It is 100% legit too because he said in excess of 500 people (519 to be exact...that is what sold me) heard the current ruler announce the agreement when they were addressed outside of the Palace.
I am feeling generous and because I know that you know a good deal when you see it I am graciously going to let you send him your bank account information and you can thank me with just 100k of that 10 mill you'll be receiving. 
The thing that solidifies the whole deal is that you don't even have to fly over there to confirm with the eyewitnesses...just give em a call. All.of them,  or a few of them, or just even one of them. You know who they are from the Prince's incredibly detailed description of "in excess of 500"


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## Spotlite (Jul 4, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The future Prince of Nigeria just sent me an email asking that if I sent him $10,000 to get him out of exile he will send me $10 Million next week when he takes the Throne.
> It is 100% legit too because he said in excess of 500 people (519 to be exact...that is what sold me) heard the current ruler announce the agreement when they were addressed outside of the Palace.
> I am feeling generous and because I know that you know a good deal when you see it I am graciously going to let you send him your bank account information and you can thank me with just 100k of that 10 mill you'll be receiving.
> The thing that solidifies the whole deal is that you don't even have to fly over there to confirm with the eyewitnesses...just give em a call. All.of them,  or a few of them, or just even one of them. You know who they are from the Prince's incredibly detailed description of "in excess of 500"


Your buddy already called stuff like this “apples to oranges”.

On one hand you’re trying to establish the “famous” Jesus where everyone jotted everything down after another one of your non believers buddies says back when only 12 people could read, they decided to write a book……

On the other hand you try to establish an “infamous” Jesus that folks decided to write about years after his death………

The infamous would be reason not to write about him. I’d imagine if you tried to make a trouble maker that hung between two thieves famous you’re probably not going to get a very warm welcome when you go to town.

It’s amazing that in a world established on “possibilities” or “likelihood” that in a same scenario we see happening today (not writing books about everyone claiming to be something”…….one will try to build a case that it’s not possible to have happened 2000 years ago. Who wrote about David Koresh as it unfolded? 2000 years from outside of a few news reporters that were not there all you have is their stories they reported as they were told to them.  

No need in going there with the real people, real world analogy - Jesus and Jerusalem are just as real as David and Waco TX. 


Yea this was Jesus, King of Kings…..not accepted by the Jews……..and you expect that nation to just allow the red carpet to be rolled out to document his every move for history’s sake?


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## tell sackett (Jul 4, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Who exactly were they going to ask?
> Did the over 500 get tshirts made up that said "I saw what Paul's talking about, just ask"?
> Did the members of the Corinth church magically know who saw the resurrection? Was there a Resurrection information booth down town with a list of names?
> 
> ...





bullethead said:


> Maybe Paul could have said:
> 1. Fred the Leper, illiterate,  lives down by the canal can tell you (at a distance of course) what he saw.
> 2. Dimitri Demyanovich the Greek govt representative who was at the market buying Figs from a Figurative Fig Tree, he and his entourage saw the whole thing. They rushed home to write it all down and then sailed back to Greece handing out copies to anyone and everyone telling that they had witnessed the Son of God come back from the dead.
> 3. 10 Roman soldiers who were in the area reported the event almost word for word to their commander who made an official report where it is on record in Rome.
> 4. - 499 or 523 or even just 5 total can be of similar small details.


And it still wouldn’t have been enough would it?


----------



## tell sackett (Jul 4, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Yet nobody took them up on the offer, or thought it was worth documenting?


And you know this how?


----------



## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Your buddy already called stuff like this “apples to oranges”.
> 
> On one hand you’re trying to establish the “famous” Jesus where everyone jotted everything down after another one of your non believers buddies says back when only 12 people could read, they decided to write a book……


I have always pointed out the silence about Jesus during his heyday.
Literate and educated people existed and lived among the illiterate.
The writing down of events was the News of those times. Jesus, the supposed Son of God, got comparatively little acknowledgement at the height of his supposed works than people who fill Jewish history before, during and after him. Cultures recorded events since the beginning of human existence.
Either none of the right people noticed the King of Kings grand accomplishments as they happened or he did enough stupid things as a regular guy to be a troublemaker to the wrong people for three years.
Only in the minds of believers is everything backwards.



Spotlite said:


> On the other hand you try to establish an “infamous” Jesus that folks decided to write about years after his death………


That is unquestionably established by your own Bible.



Spotlite said:


> The infamous would be reason not to write about him. I’d imagine if you tried to make a trouble maker that hung between two thieves famous you’re probably not going to get a very warm welcome when you go to town.


Where was his followers when he was being arrested? 12 guys, a Mother, an ex prostitute, and a handful of one mentions to give the storyline some filler...
Where was the outrage from thousands of followers? When Pilot asked the people if Jesus should live or die the people spoke. It wasn't highly of him like you are trying to portray here Spotlite. They were as sick of him as the Clergy was. Rome couldn't give 2 piles of donkey doo one way or the other whether he lived or died.
His followers were crushed when he was put to death. They werent rejoicing knowing that the pieces of some Three's Company Plot Line were coming together.
It took at least 30 years for an author to come up with ways to make excuses as to why it happened as it did and try to do it in ways that fulfilled OT prophecy.
If you recognize the religious history of the Jews they were looking for a messiah then and are still looking now with there always being groups of Jews who jump on the best available bandwagons until they don't work out.



Spotlite said:


> It’s amazing that in a world established on “possibilities” or “likelihood” that in a same scenario we see happening today (not writing books about everyone claiming to be something”…….one will try to build a case that it’s not possible to have happened 2000 years ago. Who wrote about David Koresh as it unfolded? 2000 years from outside of a few news reporters that were not there all you have is their stories they reported as they were told to them.


A quich search revealed at least a dozen Books about David Koresh available right now from both members and outsiide authors.
He has more coverage than the Son of God Spotlite.  Let that sink in



Spotlite said:


> No need in going there with the real people, real world analogy - Jesus and Jerusalem are just as real as David and Waco TX.


Just as real, less noticeable.
Does someone get more noticed for their actions or less noticed?
Due to the differences in times I'd say both imposters got what the authorities felt was necessary. Unless you want to argue that Koresh was also the Son of God with thousands of followers who was killed for being too good.




Spotlite said:


> Yea this was Jesus, King of Kings…..not accepted by the Jews……..and you expect that nation to just allow the red carpet to be rolled out to document his every move for history’s sake?


At the time he was just Yeshua.
Decades after his death he was turned into Jesus the Son of God and then somehow God and then worshipped.

According to the stories, whether they were about a real man or a man made up....Jesus never ever asked to be worshipped or have a new religion started around him. He claimed to want to fulfill the Old Law not abolish it.

You are trying to downplay your own claims. Is being the Son of God, (or part of god, 1/3 of God, The Son on earth but the Father above or whatever convoluted combination of many equal One you have twist into monotheism) recognizable to all or not?
You are telling us one one hand GOD walked among us for 33 years (30 in total obscurity) and 3 years in being the most perfect person to ever set foot on the planet. You are trying to portray GOD on earth as being God but only recognized by a few for being God and being recognized by many for being a troublemaking imposter. Your own book backs this summation up.

The People killed your version of God and not because he was God.[/QUOTE]


----------



## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> And it still wouldn’t have been enough would it?


For me, if verifiable,  yes.
You have absolutely no explanations to back up your claims when the absurdity is shown to you. You said the 500+could be asked and realize that in no way was there a way to know who these people are.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> And you know this how?


Silence tells of what people didn't do, not confirms what they did.

Merely imagining a time when people who did not know about a resurrection could magically find 500 people with no identifiable descriptions and decades later is the stuff religions are made of.


----------



## tell sackett (Jul 4, 2022)

Assuming is never proof. I see no absurdity. You have zero proof that none of those people were ever asked. 
Time to start digging up the goal posts again.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Assuming is never proof. I see no absurdity. You have zero proof that none of those people were ever asked.
> Time to start digging up the goal posts again.


I am open to hearing about whoever was asked and what answer they gave. Whatcha got?

You assuming they were asked is no different than assuming they were not.
The difference lies in that both assumptions are based on no evidence which leads to one being more likely than the other until it can be proven incorrect.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Jul 4, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> A list?



My mistake! There is now a list (see link at bottom) but not of the 500 people who saw the resurrected Jesus. Regardless, even though I consider the Bible fiction, the story has what is IMHO a plot hole of sorts:

The resurrected Jesus would be the most important aspect of Christianity. A couple of verses even talk about urgently spreading this news as very important. Some of the 500 had already died by the time of Peter talking about it in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 but most witnesses were still alive. 

But human nature being what it is (and probably always was up to a point) I would think that if the witnesses were no doubt spreading the news to all who would listen that eventually (probably rather quickly) the news would hit people that were outside the circle of believers. Indeed, most people would be outside the circle of believers because they are the ones who need to be reached & convinced. Makes sense so far?

So even if people in the region - and at that time period - were not in the habit of writing things down, there would be at least a few outside-the-Bible itself sources 
bending over backwards to get this amazing resurrection documented. Jesus the man getting crucified would to be honest not be big news. Crucifixion was pretty common.* Resurrection however would be a huge, huge deal!* But it wouldn't be the first time, as per Mathew 27:51-53. 

And don't even get me started on how this wasn't even mentioned in the other three gospels! Tombs bursting open and saints coming back to life? Don't you think that would attract attention?    But apparently this was so  that even the Bible itself barely mentions it, let alone any outside sources.

51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.


The Witnesses — Who and How Many People Saw Jesus Alive After His Crucifixion? | Facts and Faith


----------



## Ruger#3 (Jul 4, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I have always pointed out the silence about Jesus during his heyday.
> Literate and educated people existed and lived among the illiterate.
> The writing down of events was the News of those times. Jesus, the supposed Son of God, got comparatively little acknowledgement at the height of his supposed works than people who fill Jewish history before, during and after him. Cultures recorded events since the beginning of human existence.
> Either none of the right people noticed the King of Kings grand accomplishments as they happened or he did enough stupid things as a regular guy to be a troublemaker to the wrong people for three years.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I will say your very astute at use of the strawman.

The Jews were already here, its is written God had already visited the earth. Many of the events of the old testament are well document. Yet you skip, the earth destroyed and God visiting to argue the resurrection, fascinating choice.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Assuming is never proof. I see no absurdity. You have zero proof that none of those people were ever asked.
> Time to start digging up the goal posts again.


I have zero proof that when Jesus was resurrected he formed a congo line and he along with over 500 people took 2 flying laps around the earth.
But I will go with that didn't happen either until evidence of the contrary is presented.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

> ="Ruger#3, post: 13452572, member: 11171"
> 
> I will say your very astute at use of the strawman.
> 
> The Jews were already here, its is written God had already visited the earth. Many of the events of the old testament are well document. Yet you skip, the earth destroyed and God visiting to argue the resurrection, fascinating choice.


Get into specifics.
You use the Ultimate Strawman as default.

The Jews exist.
Many people, places, events in all the religious writings, oral traditions and drawings in all of the different religions that have ever existed are real. None of them stand up to scrutiny when they mix those real areas with supernatural embellishments.
Greek Mythology is chock full of real people, places and events. You don't believe it for reasons that you have to use to believe in your own religion. The hypocrisy is mind boggling.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Jul 4, 2022)

Kisatchie said:


> Lol wait and see.
> There are very few certainties in life, this is  one of them.
> 
> What I don’t understand about the atheist etc.( fill in the blank with whatever you want to call yourself). If you don’t believe in God and don’t believe in heaven or **** ...nothing after this life? Why  would you waste even a second if your time trying to convince others that God doesn’t exist? It makes zero sense. You have a very limited amount of time and then just nothing? So you sit in front of a computer spewing nonsense. Seems like you’d be using your time better lol. Me I’m good I got maybe 80-90 years here then I’m on to eternity.
> ...



Interesting points! I don't try to convince others that God doesn't exist (people are entitled to their beliefs) I'm trying to find somebody who can provide me evidence that God (any true God, I'm not picky) _does_ exist. 

As for me "spewing nonsense" I respectfully disagree. Discussing the deeper questions of life is very important. Here is something I read a long time ago and it makes sense:

small minds talk about people
average minds talk about things
great minds talk about ideas! 

Everyone in this Forum is a great mind by my reasoning, even if I don't agree with all their ideas. 

As for your last sentence, I have (statistically, knock-on-wood) about 25 years left _on_ this planet, then it's into a pine box and I go_ into _this planet. 
This life is no dress rehearsal for a future life - it's "one and done"! 

I am "enjoying Paris".  Let me explain! 
If you like to travel and always wanted to go to Paris France and somebody said "I will pay for you to go to Paris, but you can only go one time. You'll never ever get to again" would you say "forget it! I want to go twice!" or would you pack your bags and enjoy your one and only trip to Paris? 

Something cool to think about concerning an afterlife IMHO.


----------



## tell sackett (Jul 4, 2022)

W


oldfella1962 said:


> My mistake! There is now a list (see link at bottom) but not of the 500 people who saw the resurrected Jesus. Regardless, even though I consider the Bible fiction, the story has what is IMHO a plot hole of sorts:
> 
> The resurrected Jesus would be the most important aspect of Christianity. A couple of verses even talk about urgently spreading this news as very important. Some of the 500 had already died by the time of Peter talking about it in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 but most witnesses were still alive.
> 
> ...



Within weeks literally thousands of people were being added to the body.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Jul 4, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> And you know this how?



Lack of any documentation except for the Bible. Seeing a pattern here? 
Too bad the ancient Egyptians were gone by the time Jesus was around - those jokers documented anything & everything! 

Oh, that's right.  The ancient Egyptians were around when many OT stories took place that directly affected them, but they somehow forgot to document that stuff too. 

It's almost like the rest of the world had no recollection of any miraculous and sometimes literally world-changing events until the Bible was written. 
Isn't that strange?


----------



## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> W
> 
> 
> Within weeks literally thousands of people were being added to the body.


People who did not witness a resurrection were told about it and on the spot they abandoned their current set of beliefs and went full hog into another.
Shows you how easily swayed people are who have to fulfill a need.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 4, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I have always pointed out the silence about Jesus during his heyday.
> Literate and educated people existed and lived among the illiterate.
> The writing down of events was the News of those times. Jesus, the supposed Son of God, got comparatively little acknowledgement at the height of his supposed works than people who fill Jewish history before, during and after him. Cultures recorded events since the beginning of human existence.
> Either none of the right people noticed the King of Kings grand accomplishments as they happened or he did enough stupid things as a regular guy to be a troublemaker to the wrong people for three years.
> ...


I think you missed the point - you expect an archived gallery on a person that was known by a few hundred in 3 years.

Regardless if He’s my version of God or not, you’re argument concerning lack of info is poked full of holes. You don’t anything about what was documented prior to anything destroyed by accidental events, you don’t know what was documented that destroyed on purpose by the Roman’s or Jews.

You’re denying the one place things are written based on people like Bart Ehrman. You don’t know what info was given to whom in just 70 years. Just from one person to another will cover that span of time with breeze.

Questions??? I’m sure the story brings questions. No one is denying that. What they’re disputing is how the non believer knows things enough make “factual” statements and can’t produce anything except what Bart says?

I doubt he has more coverage than the Son of God. The Son of God affected history and still affecting future. David affected a few years and a select number of people. We have media coverage and Time Magazine today where they didn’t then, prove they didn’t tell one another. What you’re attempting to say is those folks stayed home because they had no cars back then.


----------



## tell sackett (Jul 4, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Lack of any documentation except for the Bible. Seeing a pattern here?
> Too bad the ancient Egyptians were gone by the time Jesus was around - those jokers documented anything & everything!
> 
> Oh, that's right.  The ancient Egyptians were around when many OT stories took place that directly affected them, but they somehow forgot to document that stuff too.
> ...



No, no storage at all. The Bible was written over a period of some 1500 years as events were happening. 




bullethead said:


> People who did not witness a resurrection were told about it and on the spot they abandoned their current set of beliefs and went full hog into another.
> Shows you how easily swayed people are who have to fulfill a need.



Or it shows the power of the truth of the gospel.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 4, 2022)

> A quich search revealed at least a dozen Books about David Koresh available right now from both members and outsiide authors.
> He has more coverage than the Son of God Spotlite. Let that sink in



Quick research shows 11 books on David Koresh. There are 243 on Jesus outside of the 66 Books of the Bible  which is all over the world.

Your more coverage assertion is debunked. Next.


----------



## 1gr8buildit (Jul 4, 2022)

Been thinking about this verse 1 Cor 15;6. I never noticed this before. The greek is clear. He appeared to those all "at once". [estimated 500] This has never been mentioned elsewhere? It seemingly would have been. Paul must be referring to the debut on mankind of the Holy Spirit recorded in Acts. Interesting... if so? Time line is established because "some are still alive".
Lets think this through. Lets say the youngest to be there were 20. If we assume an average life span of 60, some going higher.. The longest being 70. This likely puts Paul at 50 years AD at the time of this writing. I wonder if that fits with the orthodox time line of his writings? Trying to establish a time of a potential 500 sighting Jesus. I am not trying to validate 500. I am only trying to validate that Paul believed there to be a 500 sighting that was hand me down info that he would not have known in person. 

Edit, a quick google showed that it is believed that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians in 53Ad. This to me does not prove the event, it simply means it is not ruled out


----------



## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I think you missed the point - you expect an archived gallery on a person that was known by a few hundred in 3 years.
> 
> Regardless if He’s my version of God or not, you’re argument concerning lack of info is poked full of holes. You don’t anything about what was documented prior to anything destroyed by accidental events, you don’t know what was documented that destroyed on purpose by the Roman’s or Jews.
> 
> ...


I expect God to be noticed as God by all without question. Crowds building by the second everywhere he is every single second of the day and night. People traveling from foreign lands to get a glimpse because word is spreading so fast. People recording their awe.
That didnt happen.
What happened was what happens to many humans.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Quick research shows 11 books on David Koresh. There are 243 on Jesus outside of the 66 Books of the Bible  which is all over the world.
> 
> Your more coverage assertion is debunked. Next.


Sptlote, what year removed from Jesus were the 243 book written? Were any by members who were there?
Sorry but no bud


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## RegularJoe (Jul 4, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> No, no storage at all. The Bible was written over a period of some 1500 years as events were happening.


Also, Tell, the Egyptian Alexandrian Library fire wiped out a whole lotta scrolls.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 4, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I expect God to be noticed as God by all without question. Crowds building by the second everywhere he is every single second of the day and night. People traveling from foreign lands to get a glimpse because word is spreading so fast. People recording their awe.
> That didnt happen.
> What happened was what happens to many humans.


His ministry was only 3 years. With all the technology we have today some people never heard of Jeff Dunham. 

I here what you’re saying but you’re comparing our technology and information sharing to 2000 years ago and not knowing what did or didn’t happen.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Jul 4, 2022)

bullethead said:


> People who did not witness a resurrection were told about it and on the spot they abandoned their current set of beliefs and went full hog into another.
> Shows you how easily swayed people are who have to fulfill a need.



And to many extents nothing has changed!  New cults spring up all the time. 
I guess if people will always have spiritual/social needs they should check out the least harmful/least violent/least insane organizations at least. My daughter thinks Jehovas Witnesses are a cult, but I don't know enough about their specific beliefs to put them into that category. It might be enlightening to check out their beliefs.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> His ministry was only 3 years. With all the technology we have today some people never heard of Jeff Dunham.
> 
> I here what you’re saying but you’re comparing our technology and information sharing to 2000 years ago and not knowing what did or didn’t happen.


Spotlite!!!! Listen to yourself!
You of all people shouldn't be making excuses for "IF" God!
Is IF-God incapable of surmounting technology restraints and getting word out faster than Fiber Optics?
Why are IF-God's capabilities unlimited for some absolutely outlandish things and hampered by easy no brainers?

IF-God is bad at PR work since he was unable to rise his kid to the top of the charts in 3 years but in 6 days made EVERYTHING.  Aye aye aye


----------



## oldfella1962 (Jul 4, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> No, no storage at all. The Bible was written over a period of some 1500 years as events were happening.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So, the gospel is at least as powerful & truthful as the Quran and the Bhagavad Gita (Hindu holy book) right? Granted, that is pretty powerful.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Jul 4, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Spotlite!!!! Listen to yourself!
> You of all people shouldn't be making excuses for "IF" God!
> Is IF-God incapable of surmounting technology restraints and getting word out faster than Fiber Optics?
> Why are IF-God's capabilities unlimited for some absolutely outlandish things and hampered by easy no brainers?
> ...



I can explain this conundrum: God can do_ anything_, but he won't do _everything_.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I can explain this conundrum: God can do_ anything_, but he won't do _everything_.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 4, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Spotlite!!!! Listen to yourself!
> You of all people shouldn't be making excuses for "IF" God!
> Is IF-God incapable of surmounting technology restraints and getting word out faster than Fiber Optics?
> Why are IF-God's capabilities unlimited for some absolutely outlandish things and hampered by easy no brainers?
> ...


Lol I’m not making excuses. I’m not one that believes that God makes you do things. If God wanted everyone to know instantly He would have done so. But He said to Thomas you believe because you see, blessed are those that believe and have not seen. This whole thing is faith based. It would have been a moot point to just snap belief / proof into people if He wants you to have faith in Him.

We’re talking about


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 4, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I can explain this conundrum: God can do_ anything_, but he won't do _everything_.


Pretty much yes. He can. But He won’t do sone things.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Lol I’m not making excuses. I’m not one that believes that God makes you do things. If God wanted everyone to know instantly He would have done so. But He said to Thomas you believe because you see, blessed are those that believe and have not seen. This whole thing is faith based. It would have been a moot point to just snap belief / proof into people if He wants you to have faith in Him.
> 
> We’re talking about


Doesn't God want everyone to know?


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 4, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Doesn't God want everyone to know?


Yes. But He wants them to want to know, not forced to know.

Do you want your wife to love you for all the right reasons or would have been ok knowing that the only reason she loves you is because she had no choice?


----------



## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Yes. But He wants them to want to know, not forced to know.
> 
> Do you want your wife to love you for all the right reasons or would have been ok knowing that the only reason she loves you is because she had no choice?


Having more information does not necessarily hurt a person's chances at becoming a believer.
God can easily show me what I need to know in order to make a better decision. 

If you were on a jury and there was not enough evidence to convict someone of wrong doing and you and the others decide to aquit, would you be absolutely ticked off and felt that you were duped into a false choice if you found out that there was video evidence of the person committing crime but it was purposely left out so you could come to a conclusion without it?
Would you feel that you were set up? Duped? Kept from knowing something that would have altered you from making the correct choice?
Like, a difference of a person suffering for eternity or going to heaven based on information that was purposely left out????


----------



## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

Why is God hiding from me?
Free Will can still be had if a God revealed itself to all.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Yes. But He wants them to want to know, not forced to know.
> 
> Do you want your wife to love you for all the right reasons or would have been ok knowing that the only reason she loves you is because she had no choice?


*Westminster Confession of 1646: Of God's Eternal Decree*

*III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels, (1Ti 5:21; Mat 55:41); are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death, (Rom 9:22-23; Eph 1:5-6; Pro 16:4).*

*IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished, (2Ti 2:19; Jhn 13:18).*


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 4, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Having more information does not necessarily hurt a person's chances at becoming a believer.
> God can easily show me what I need to know in order to make a better decision.
> 
> If you were on a jury and there was not enough evidence to convict someone of wrong doing and you and the others decide to aquit, would you be absolutely ticked off and felt that you were duped into a false choice if you found out that there was video evidence of the person committing crime but it was purposely left out so you could come to a conclusion without it?
> ...


The problem is you’ve decided what is acceptable and what isn’t.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 4, 2022)

bullethead said:


> *Westminster Confession of 1646: Of God's Eternal Decree*
> 
> *III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels, (1Ti 5:21; Mat 55:41); are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death, (Rom 9:22-23; Eph 1:5-6; Pro 16:4).*
> 
> *IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished, (2Ti 2:19; Jhn 13:18).*


Mankind is predestined to serve God, that’s the purpose of our being here - an individual man isn’t. 

Remember when I said you have to put it all together and not just what Paul preached to the churches?? How many times have I said look at everything pertaining to subject if you want the whole truth?

You got tons of scripture warning you about follow and lusting after your own flesh and desire, warning you that “I’ve called and you heard not”, “I gave you a space for repentance”, etc. If you as an individual is predestined then it makes half the Bible NIL. 

I’m familiar with doctrine that says man isn’t that powerful. It’s not that man is that powerful, it’s man is allowed to either open that door when it’s knocked, or not hear. What idiot is going to knock on a knowingly deaf man’s door?


----------



## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> The problem is you’ve decided what is acceptable and what isn’t.


We all have.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 4, 2022)

bullethead said:


> We all have.


Now that I can agree with - very accurate statement.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 4, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Mankind is predestined to serve God, that’s the purpose of our being here - an individual man isn’t.
> 
> Remember when I said you have to put it all together and not just what Paul preached to the churches?? How many times have I said look at everything pertaining to subject if you want the whole truth?
> 
> ...


There are ways to reach the deaf.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Jul 4, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Yes. But He wants them to want to know, not forced to know.
> 
> Do you want your wife to love you for all the right reasons or would have been ok knowing that the only reason she loves you is because she had no choice?



 Yet how many people tell themselves that they love God only because they face *eternal torture* if they don't? Once eternal torture is on the table many people feel that they really have no choice - it's love God (or at least worship him and maybe the love comes later) or suffer eternal torture. That is just so unhealthy on so many levels.  It's just a morally bankrupt and coercive arrangement IMHO.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 4, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Yet how many people tell themselves that they love God only because they face *eternal torture* if they don't? Once eternal torture is on the table many people feel that they really have no choice - it's love God (or at least worship him and maybe the love comes later) or suffer eternal torture. That is just so unhealthy on so many levels.  It's just a morally bankrupt and coercive arrangement IMHO.


I’ll have to side with you on this, if they’re in it to escape eternal torment…I’m not so sure they’re “in it”.

I don’t know any that’s in it for that reason, though. Once they learn and start asking questions then of course it becomes something to consider. But I don’t think it really matters, people walk away all the time with the attitude of God understands and loves everyone. Based on that I don’t really believe there’s a fear factor there.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Jul 4, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I’ll have to side with you on this, if they’re in it to escape eternal torment…I’m not so sure they’re “in it”.
> 
> I don’t know any that’s in it for that reason, though. Once they learn and start asking questions then of course it becomes something to consider. But I don’t think it really matters, people walk away all the time with the attitude of God understands and loves everyone. Based on that I don’t really believe there’s a fear factor there.



 God understands and loves everyone? Jesus talks more about the hot place than he talks about heaven! In church sermons the fear factor might not be there to the point that it used to be, but the Bible is very clear about what happens to non-believers. Lucky for me it's only fiction! 

Look at God's track record for killing people or encouraging his chosen people to kill their enemies. He even made the sun stand still to give Joshua extra daylight to increase his confirmed kill record. God is ruthless so why wouldn't he send people to eternal torture? The God of the OT is the same God as the NT, so if Jesus warns about the hot place, he must know what he's talking about!


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 4, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> God understands and loves everyone? Jesus talks more about the hot place than he talks about heaven! In church sermons the fear factor might not be there to the point that it used to be, but the Bible is very clear about what happens to non-believers. Lucky for me it's only fiction!
> 
> Look at God's track record for killing people or encouraging his chosen people to kill their enemies. He even made the sun stand still to give Joshua extra daylight to increase his confirmed kill record. God is ruthless so why wouldn't he send people to eternal torture? The God of the OT is the same God as the NT, so if Jesus warns about the hot place, he must know what he's talking about!


Let me clarify, God does love everyone but there are “sins” He hates and does not compromise.

When I say people will use that “God loves everyone” tactic - it’s their own self justification to keep living in their sin.

Yes the Bible is clear, but it’s easier to say God understands and pretend He gave them an exception. The hot place is still preached but I’ve haven’t seen it have any affect on bringing folks to the alter. It’s usually the other way around - here’s what God can do to fix your life.


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 4, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> God understands and loves everyone? Jesus talks more about the hot place than he talks about heaven! In church sermons the fear factor might not be there to the point that it used to be, but the Bible is very clear about what happens to non-believers. Lucky for me it's only fiction!
> 
> Look at God's track record for killing people or encouraging his chosen people to kill their enemies. He even made the sun stand still to give Joshua extra daylight to increase his confirmed kill record. God is ruthless so why wouldn't he send people to eternal torture? The God of the OT is the same God as the NT, so if Jesus warns about the hot place, he must know what he's talking about!


refresh my memory of Jesus speaking of the hot place


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 4, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> refresh my memory of Jesus speaking of the hot place



https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/****-bible-verses/


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## 660griz (Jul 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Mankind is predestined to serve God, that’s *the purpose of our being here - an individual man isn’t.*


What does this mean?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 5, 2022)

660griz said:


> What does this mean?



I'm probably way off-base here, but I think it means:

"Marines die. That’s what we’re here for. But the Marine Corps lives forever and that means* you *live forever.” - Gunnery Sergeant Hartman, Senior Drill Instructor


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

660griz said:


> What does this mean?


It means that the human was chosen to have “communion” with God. We are predestined to have a relationship with Him. You’re not pre determined as an individual to accept or deny Him. 

The ideology that each individual is chosen or not removes faith. There’s nothing “faithful” about being individually chosen - by faith you’re saved, not by a predetermined choice.


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I'm probably way off-base here, but I think it means:
> 
> "Marines die. That’s what we’re here for. But the Marine Corps lives forever and that means* you *live forever.” - Gunnery Sergeant Hartman, Senior Drill Instructor


Pretty good analogy!


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## 660griz (Jul 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> You’re not pre determined as an individual to accept or deny Him.


 Phew! 



> Mankind is predestined to serve God, that’s the purpose of our being here


 What need do we fill for a God? Why would a God, one that has been here forever, suddenly decide to create folks to serve the God? Why didn't he create us to float around with him? Wouldn't that be the first idea instead of having to create earth...at night, and a goldilocks zone, all the other creatures? Knowing, he was gonna have to kill em all and some were gonna be tortured forever. I know, all are questions for God. I asked. He didn't respond. Shocker!


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

660griz said:


> Phew!
> 
> What need do we fill for a God? Why would a God, one that has been here forever, suddenly decide to create folks to serve the God? Why didn't he create us to float around with him? Wouldn't that be the first idea instead of having to create earth...at night, and a goldilocks zone, all the other creatures? Knowing, he was gonna have to kill em all and some were gonna be tortured forever. I know, all are questions for God. I asked. He didn't respond. Shocker!


Those are good questions and ones that I’ve often asked them myself. Serving God is not like the slave serving. We’re not created to be slaves. Serving God is dedicating your life to Him - if you love Him, keep His commandments.

There are tons of ideas out there on why God created us. All are good ones.

My best answer is that we are not just some meaningless creation. On one hand God needs nothing so why did He need me? On the other hand He has everything except a fellowship with a returned love / relationship. It’s taught that He desired to commune and have fellowship with with man so he visited the Garden.

If He desired a fellowship will a forced one where you’re pre determined really accomplish that? And looking from every angle - is “killing” the bad ones indirectly forcing the “good” ones to love Him? I’m sure some are “religious” because of the fear factor of the hot place, but that will not retain them in the bad times when they’re light bill is due and they’re broke. They’ll only stick with it when everything is a bed of roses. Fear factor never retains anyone.

And on God not responding - I hear ya. Most of the religious world has their own idea of what God said / thinks, too. All I can say is remember the Garth Brooks song “thank God for unanswered prayers”? I ran into my high school girlfriend and…….yeah - either time was not good to her or I was like really really drunk in my high school days. Maybe a no answer is answering.


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## 660griz (Jul 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Those are good questions and ones that I’ve often asked them myself. Serving God is not like the slave serving. We’re not created to be slaves. Serving God is dedicating your life to Him - if you love Him, keep His commandments.


 I would agree except for the first 4 commandments being all about 'him'. All the others should be associated with loving your fellow man but, I realize that is a very alien prospect now days.


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

660griz said:


> I would agree except for the first 4 commandments being all about 'him'. All the others should be associated with loving your fellow man but, I realize that is a very alien prospect now days.


I can see that but if it’s His desire to have fellowship with man and He’s the one that created us, why would He be ok with you doing the below?


1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image……

3. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them……

4. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain……..


On a human level if we desire a relationship with our own wife…..

1. She better not put another man before her husband.

2. She shouldn’t have an “idol” or a “representation” of her husband……thst could fulfill a role that only a husband should fulfill……

3. She shouldn’t be “serving” or obligating herself to another man…….

4. In vain - she shouldn’t speak of her husband as “nothing” “empty” or “irrelevant”.

Being a jealous God is the same as man being a jealous husband. It’s not mistrust as found in Wikipedia. The biblical jealousy is protecting a relationship that’s rightfully yours - A man will protect the relationship he has with his wife and does not take second place behind another man - and vice versa.

Try it today, call your wife and tell her your going to some chicks house and cut the grass, take the trash out, etc before you come home. You’ll see that type of “jealousy” come alive quickly lol ?

This is just my opinion, though. I don’t have a “sole” Bible verse to point to. Just over the years this is where I’ve landed with the whole thing.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> It means that the human was chosen to have “communion” with God. We are predestined to have a relationship with Him. You’re not pre determined as an individual to accept or deny Him.
> 
> The ideology that each individual is chosen or not removes faith. There’s nothing “faithful” about being individually chosen - by faith you’re saved, not by a predetermined choice.



 How can you be predetermined to have a relationship with God but not be predetermined to accept him? Wouldn't you have to accept him to have a communion/relationship with him? This sounds like a "Schrodinger's cat" type of situation to me. 

Unless you mean that by not accepting God we still have a relationship, even if we dwell in the hot place for eternity. I have read/heard that even if you are in hot place God still "loves" you which IMHO is morally repugnant. But then again, I only have a very limited human understanding of "morality".


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> How can you be predetermined to have a relationship with God but not be predetermined to accept him? Wouldn't you have to accept him to have a communion/relationship with him? This sounds like a "Schrodinger's cat" type of situation to me.
> 
> Unless you mean that by not accepting God we still have a relationship, even if we dwell in the hot place for eternity. I have read/heard that even if you are in hot place God still "loves" you which IMHO is morally repugnant. But then again, I only have a very limited human understanding of "morality".





> How can you be predetermined to have a relationship with God but not be predetermined to accept him?


You can’t. “Accepting” God is the start of having a relationship with Him. If you deny Him, there’s no relationship.

Sorry, didn’t mean to sound confusing.


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## bullethead (Jul 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Those are good questions and ones that I’ve often asked them myself. Serving God is not like the slave serving. We’re not created to be slaves. Serving God is dedicating your life to Him - if you love Him, keep His commandments.
> 
> There are tons of ideas out there on why God created us. All are good ones.
> 
> ...


Doesn't God have Angels to fill all roles?


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## bullethead (Jul 5, 2022)

Does Free Will exist in Heaven?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> You can’t. “Accepting” God is the start of having a relationship with Him. If you deny Him, there’s no relationship.
> 
> Sorry, didn’t mean to sound confusing.



Bottom line is the "accepting" or "rejecting" predetermined or not?


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Doesn't God have Angels to fill all roles?





bullethead said:


> Does Free Will exist in Heaven?



I don’t find that man was created because Angels failed to fill roles. They have a purpose, msn has a purpose.

Obviously, one rebelled.


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Bottom line is the "accepting" or "rejecting" predetermined or not?


I don’t believe in being individually predetermined. I’d have to overlook tons of warnings concerning “obeyed not” stuff in order to believe it.

Is “predestined” truth? Certainly, but when taken out of context to be individually pre determined, it’s not the whole truth.


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## bullethead (Jul 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t find that man was created because Angels failed to fill roles. They have a purpose, msn has a purpose.
> 
> Obviously, one rebelled.


What are the roles?

And if Free Will can keep you from getting into Heaven why have it while there?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 5, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Doesn't God have Angels to fill all roles?



Good question! And I would bet some angels are his favorites, and some are less important. What do I mean by this?

Lot was one of God's favorite humans. He sent two angels down to visit with Lot and even stay in his home in Gomorrah.  Soon a mob of rapists surrounded Lot's house and demanded that Lot send the angels outside so the mob could rape them!  I bet they were thinking "I didn't sign up for this!"  I'm sure the angels were relieved when Lot offered up his two virgin daughters to be raped, rather than be a bad host to his two guests. Spoiler alert - long story short - Gomorrah gets destroyed, and Lot gets drunk and impregnates his two daughters. 

I'm not a preacher, but this story in its full-length version would be a real crowd pleaser!


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t believe in being individually predetermined. I’d have to overlook tons of warnings concerning “obeyed not” stuff in order to believe it.
> 
> Is “predestined” truth? Certainly, but when taken out of context to be individually pre determined, it’s not the whole truth.



I still don't get it. Maybe when I get enough coffee my brain will kick in.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 5, 2022)

bullethead said:


> What are the roles?
> 
> And if Free Will can keep you from getting into Heaven why have it while there?



Interesting! Maybe there are two sections in Heaven. One section for the angels (operating under one set of stipulations and parameters) and another section reserved - maybe still under construction - for human "believers" when they go there after the Final Judgement which will have its own set of stipulations and parameters.


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

bullethead said:


> What are the roles?
> 
> And if Free Will can keep you from getting into Heaven why have it while there?


I don’t find anything saying that man was created because Angels failed to fulfill any roles, it was a response to your question - 
“Doesn't God have Angels to fill all roles?”

I was assuming that you were asking doesn’t God have Angles to fill all roles as questioning the purpose of man or God’s desire for fellowship. 

I’m just saying I don’t see the purpose “need” for man as having anything to do with what’s lacking from Angels.


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I still don't get it. Maybe when I get enough coffee my brain will kick in.


Your Marine analogy is pretty good.

It was destined by our country to create a defense mechanism, Marines!!  You’re not born a Marine……you have to become one…….and you ain’t becoming one until you at least enlist.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Your Marine analogy is pretty good.
> 
> It was destined by our country to create a defense mechanism, Marines!!  You’re not born a Marine……you have to become one…….and you ain’t becoming one until you at least enlist.



I get what you just said as a stand-alone statement. No problem there, I totally agree with your reasoning. But I still don't see the connection with predestination/free will.


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## j_seph (Jul 5, 2022)

Is there early testimony? (Yes, the earliest (1 Cor. 15:3–8) being within 3 years of Jesus’ death. Easter’s earliest creed)
    Is there eyewitness testimony? (Yes. 1 Corinthians 15 preserves eyewitness testimony, and two of the gospel writers were eyewitnesses to the risen Christ.)
    Are there multiple, independent witnesses? (Yes. At the very least Matthew, John, and Paul are three independent witnesses.
* Did the eyewitnesses have anything to gain from lying about what they claimed to see? (No. They gained no gold, girls, or glory for preaching the gospel. Rather, they gained ostracism, suffering, and death.)*
    Could the eyewitnesses have been mistaken? (Extremely unlikely. They were intimately familiar with Jesus. They saw that the tomb was empty. They were skeptical of the women’s reports of the risen Jesus before they themselves saw Him. Jesus often made a point of his physicality when He appeared to them, e.g. cooking, breaking bread, eating, and allowing people to touch him. Plus, different people saw him in different contexts.)
    Is there anything embarrassing about the nature of the testimony? (Yes. Women were the first witnesses, whom the disciples themselves didn’t believe at first. The disciples were completely confused about what had happened, despite Jesus having predicted his resurrection multiple times.)
    Were there unbiased or hostile witnesses? (Yes. Paul and Jesus’ brother James didn’t believe in Jesus before he died. But appearances of the risen Jesus to each of them made them stalwart missionaries of the early church who ultimately died for their Christian witness.)


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I get what you just said as a stand-alone statement. No problem there, I totally agree with your reasoning. But I still don't see the connection with predestination/free will.



If you wanted real love - did you want your wife to chose you for who you were, or did you want her without any choice of hers?

Individually predestination says a man has no choice. The Bible warns “I have called and you refused”.

Free Will really isn’t free will. It’s nothing but God allowing you parameters. The gripe is power be to man!! There’s no power there, if a man wants to commit adultery God will let him, but it comes with a price. If a man wants to pick up his cross and follow God, God will let him - it comes with its benefits.

Forcing a man to follow Him defeats the purpose of establishing a relationship with man,. When you have no choice you’re a hostage / victim.


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## bullethead (Jul 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t find anything saying that man was created because Angels failed to fulfill any roles, it was a response to your question -
> “Doesn't God have Angels to fill all roles?”
> 
> I was assuming that you were asking doesn’t God have Angles to fill all roles as questioning the purpose of man or God’s desire for fellowship.
> ...


I don't see the purpose of man for a God's needs at all.


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I don't see the purpose of man for a God's needs at all.


You have that choice ??


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 5, 2022)

j_seph said:


> Is there early testimony? (Yes, the earliest (1 Cor. 15:3–8) being within 3 years of Jesus’ death. Easter’s earliest creed)
> Is there eyewitness testimony? (Yes. 1 Corinthians 15 preserves eyewitness testimony, and two of the gospel writers were eyewitnesses to the risen Christ.)
> Are there multiple, independent witnesses? (Yes. At the very least Matthew, John, and Paul are three independent witnesses.
> * Did the eyewitnesses have anything to gain from lying about what they claimed to see? (No. They gained no gold, girls, or glory for preaching the gospel. Rather, they gained ostracism, suffering, and death.)*
> ...



I get what you're saying, but all of these witnesses (friendly or hostile) are referenced
in the Bible, the book about....and allegedly proving.... Jesus. The book that wasn't compiled until long after his death, and nothing prior to the Bible (that didn't eventually become part of the Bible) exists in writing, etching, drawings, or any other form AFAIK. 

In other words, if you weren't talking about the Bible (including both the OT and the NT) and it was _any other centuries old book_ that told stories involving many supernatural claims of what are often of a fantastical and embellished nature, and the proof/witnesses of these claims are _contained only within that book _would you be likely to believe it?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> If you wanted real love - did you want your wife to chose you for who you were, or did you want her without any choice of hers?
> 
> Individually predestination says a man has no choice. The Bible warns “I have called and you refused”.
> 
> ...



Interesting choice of words! IMHO when eternal torture is on the table God doesn't give you a choice, he issues you an ultimatum.  

If I hold a gun to your head and say "give me your wallet" technically you have a choice of whether to die or give up your wallet.
But to my way of thinking I issued you an ultimatum.


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## bullethead (Jul 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> You have that choice ??


I see no choices to choose from.
What are they?


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Interesting choice of words! IMHO when eternal torture is on the table God doesn't give you a choice, he issues you an ultimatum.
> 
> If I hold a gun to your head and say "give me your wallet" technically you have a choice of whether to die or give up your wallet.
> But to my way of thinking I issued you an ultimatum.


That’s another way to look at it. But you’ll be hard pressed to find anyone in this because of that. If that’s what brings them in, they usually last less than 6 months. So, being in this and witnessing that - I don’t buy it that it’s happening with the ability to retain.

Do you love your wife for who and what she is to you or do you only do it so she won’t divorce you?


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I see no choices to choose from.
> What are they?


Because you chose doubt through skepticism. If one tries hard enough they can convince themselves that a white ceiling isn’t white.,


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## bullethead (Jul 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Because you chose doubt through skepticism. If one tries hard enough they can convince themselves that a white ceiling isn’t white.,


Or that they are knowledgeable about a god they have absolutely zero proof exists. That type of convincing?

Spot you hold it against some of us for not playing outside of the known reality. We have to acknowledge a god before we can get into specifics a d there are just no specifics to get into. There is believers interpretation through what they each think would be the right explanation and it is no different than when we are told that we set our own parameters and not confine to God's. There is absolutely no way that we can play in that sandbox unless we pretend...and even then nobody can tell us or show us anything from an actual god that backs up their own man thought rules.

I choose doubt because there is nothing else to choose from except another man's version of an invisible friend. You have to understand that basis.


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Or that they are knowledgeable about a god they have absolutely zero proof exists. That type of convincing?
> 
> Spot you hold it against some of us for not playing outside of the known reality. We have to acknowledge a god before we can get into specifics a d there are just no specifics to get into. There is believers interpretation through what they each think would be the right explanation and it is no different than when we are told that we set our own parameters and not confine to God's. There is absolutely no way that we can play in that sandbox unless we pretend...and even then nobody can tell us or show us anything from an actual god that backs up their own man thought rules.
> 
> I choose doubt because there is nothing else to choose from except another man's version of an invisible friend. You have to understand that basis.


I don’t hold anything against anyone. Honestly, I have nothing but respect for anyone; believer or nonbeliever, that knows why they did or didn’t chose God.

All I’m saying is don’t be so convinced that the known reality to you is THE known reality.

I only state what I “believe” to be true. I’ve said it on here before I could have it all wrong, I just don’t believe I do, though.


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## bullethead (Jul 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t hold anything against anyone. Honestly, I have nothing but respect for anyone; believer or nonbeliever, that knows why they did or didn’t chose God.
> 
> All I’m saying is don’t be so convinced that the known reality to you is THE known reality.
> 
> I only state what I “believe” to be true. I’ve said it on here before I could have it all wrong, I just don’t believe I do, though.


I didn't choose one god for the same reasons that I didn't choose any God's. 

My known reality is the only reality that I know. I prepare for potential possibilities in reality. It makes no sense to cover thousands of possibilities that are figments of imaginations.

Cheers to you for stating what you believe to be true.


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## 660griz (Jul 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I can see that but if it’s His desire to have fellowship with man and He’s the one that created us, why would He be ok with you doing the below?
> 
> 
> 1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.


 Easy, don't create other Gods.



> 2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image……
> 
> 3. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them……


 See #1



> 4. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain……..


 Sensitive fellow. Out of all the things he has an opportunity to call out...this is what he comes up with. 




> On a human level if we desire a relationship with our own wife…..



Good try. 




> Being a jealous God is the same as man being a jealous husband.


 So, can't hold a God to a higher standard? Interesting.  





> The biblical jealousy is protecting a relationship that’s rightfully yours - A man will protect the relationship he has with his wife and does not take second place behind another man - and vice versa.


 First, I don't look at my relationship with my wife in that way. Rightfully, mine? She loves me for me, I love her for her. If she decides she loves somebody else, don't let the door hit ya in the....



> Try it today, call your wife and tell her your going to some chicks house and cut the grass, take the trash out, etc before you come home. You’ll see that type of “jealousy” come alive quickly lol ?


 Not sure I agree it is THAT kind of jealously. My wife can't blink a planet into existence. She is a good cook though.


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## j_seph (Jul 5, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I get what you're saying, but all of these witnesses (friendly or hostile) are referenced
> in the Bible, the book about....and allegedly proving.... Jesus. The book that wasn't compiled until long after his death, and nothing prior to the Bible (that didn't eventually become part of the Bible) exists in writing, etching, drawings, or any other form AFAIK.
> 
> In other words, if you weren't talking about the Bible (including both the OT and the NT) and it was _any other centuries old book_ that told stories involving many supernatural claims of what are often of a fantastical and embellished nature, and the proof/witnesses of these claims are _contained only within that book _would you be likely to believe it?


*Thallus (52AD)*
Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who previously tried to explain away the darkness occurring at Jesus’ crucifixion:
“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)
If only more of Thallus’ record could be found, we might find more confirmation of Jesus’ crucifixion. But there are some things we can conclude from this account: _Jesus lived, He was crucified, and there was an earthquake and darkness at the point of His crucifixion._
*Tacitus (56-120AD)*
Cornelius Tacitus was known for his analysis and examination of historical documents and is among the most trusted of ancient historians. He was a senator under Emperor Vespasian and was also proconsul of Asia. In his “Annals’ of 116AD, he describes Emperor Nero’s response to the great fire in Rome and Nero’s claim that the Christians were to blame:
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.”

In this account, Tacitus confirms several historical elements of the Biblical narrative: _Jesus lived in Judea, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and had followers who were persecuted for their faith in Christ._
*Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)*
Sometime after 70AD, a Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. The fact Jesus is known to be a real person with this kind of influence is important. Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King”:
“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”
From this account, we can add to our understanding of Jesus: _He was a wise and influential man who died for His beliefs. The Jewish leadership was somehow responsible for Jesus’ death. Jesus’ followers adopted His beliefs and lived their lives accordingly._
*Phlegon (80-140AD)*
In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:
“Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour.” (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)
Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):
“Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)

“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place … ” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)
“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)
From these accounts, we can add something to our understanding: _Jesus had the ability to accurately predict the future, was crucified under the reign of Tiberius Caesar and demonstrated His wounds after he was resurrected._
*Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)*
Early Christians were also described in early, non-Christian history. Pliny the Younger, in a letter to the Roman emperor Trajan, describes the lifestyles of early Christians:
“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”
This early description of the first Christians documents several facts: _the first Christians believed Jesus was GOD, the first Christians upheld a high moral code, and these early followers met regularly to worship Jesus._
*Suetonius (69-140AD)*
Suetonius was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. His writings about Christians describe their treatment under the Emperor Claudius (41-54AD):
“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he (Claudius) expelled them from the city (Rome).” (Life of Claudius, 25:4)

This expulsion took place in 49AD, and in another work, Suetonius wrote about the fire which destroyed Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians for this fire and he punished Christians severely as a result:
“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.” (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)
There is much we can learn from Suetonius as it is related to the life of early Christians. From this account, we know Jesus had an immediate impact on His followers: _They were committed to their belief Jesus was God and withstood the torment and punishment of the Roman Empire. Jesus had a curious and immediate impact on His followers, empowering them to die courageously for what they knew to be true._
*Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)*
Lucian was a Greek satirist who spoke sarcastically of Christ and Christians, but in the process, he did affirm they were real people and never referred to them as fictional characters:
“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.” (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)
From this account we can add to our description of Jesus: _He taught about repentance and about the family of God. These teachings were quickly adopted by Jesus’ followers and exhibited to the world around them._
*Celsus (175AD)*
This is the last hostile, non-Christian account we will examine (although there are many other later accounts in history). Celsus was quite antagonistic to the claims of the Gospels, but in his criticism he unknowingly affirmed and reinforced the Biblical authors and their content. His writing is extensive and he alludes to 80 different Biblical quotes, confirming their early appearance in history. In addition, he admits the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the early 2nd century:
“Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a *******. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.”

Celsus admits Jesus was reportedly born of a virgin, but then argues this could supernatural account could not be possible and offers the idea Jesus was the illegitimate son of a man named Panthera (an idea borrowed from Jews who opposed Jesus at the time). But in writing this account, Celsus does confirm several important claims: _Jesus had an earthly father who was a carpenter, possessed unusual magical powers and claimed to be God._


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## j_seph (Jul 5, 2022)

*Josephus (37-101AD)*
In more detail than any other non-biblical historian, Josephus writes about Jesus in his “the Antiquities of the Jews” in 93AD. Josephus was born just four years after the crucifixion. He was a consultant for Jewish rabbis at an early age, became a Galilean military commander by the age of sixteen, and he was an eyewitness to much of what he recorded in the first century A.D. Under the rule of Roman emperor Vespasian, Josephus was allowed to write a history of the Jews. This history includes three passages about Christians, one in which he describes the death of John the Baptist, one in which he mentions the execution of James (and describes him as the brother of Jesus the Christ), and a final passage which describes Jesus as a wise man and the messiah. There is much legitimate controversy about the writing of Josephus, because the first discoveries of his writings are late enough to have been re-written by Christians who were accused of making additions to the text. So to be fair, we’ll examine a scholarly reconstruction stripped of Christian embellishment:
“Now around this time lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was a worker of amazing deeds and was a teacher of people who gladly accept the truth. He won over both many Jews and many Greeks. Pilate, when he heard him accused by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, (but) those who had first loved him did not cease (doing so). To this day the tribe of Christians named after him has not disappeared” (This neutral reconstruction follows closely the one proposed by John Meier, _A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus: The Roots of the Problem and the Person_).
Now there are many other ancient versions of Josephus’ writing which are even more explicit about the nature of Jesus’ miracles, life and his status as the Christ, but let’s take this conservative version and see what we can learn. From this text, we can conclude: _Jesus lived in Palestine, was a wise man and a teacher, worked amazing deeds, was accused by the Jews, crucified under Pilate and had followers called Christians._
*Jewish Talmud (400-700AD)*
While the earliest Talmudic writings of Jewish Rabbis appear in the 5th century, the tradition of these Rabbinic authors indicates they are faithfully transmitting teachings from the early “Tannaitic” period of the 1st Century BC to the 2nd Century AD. Scholars believe there are a number of Talmudic writings referring to Jesus, and many of these writings are said to use code words to describe Jesus (such as “Balaam” or “Ben Stada” or “a certain one”). But for our purposes we’ll be very conservative and limit our examination to the passages referring to Jesus in a more direct way:
“Jesus practiced magic and led Israel astray” (b. Sanhedrin 43a; cf. t. Shabbat 11.15; b. Shabbat 104b)
“Rabbi Hisda (d. 309) said that Rabbi Jeremiah bar Abba said, ‘What is that which is written, ‘No evil will befall you, nor shall any plague come near your house’? (Psalm 91:10)… ‘No evil will befall you’ (means) that evil dreams and evil thoughts will not tempt you; ‘nor shall any plague come near your house’ (means) that you will not have a son or a disciple who burns his food like Jesus of Nazareth.” (b. Sanhedrin 103a; cf. b. Berakhot 17b)

“Our rabbis have taught that Jesus had five disciples: Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah. They brought Matthai to (to trial). He said, ‘Must Matthai be killed? For it is written, ‘When (mathai) shall I come and appear before God?’” (Psalm 92:2) They said to him, “Yes Matthai must be killed, for it is written, ‘When (mathai) he dies his name will perish’” (Psalm 41:5). They brought Nakai. He said to them, “Must Nakai be killed? For it is written, “The innocent (naqi) and the righteous will not slay’” (Exodus 23:7). They said to him, “Yes, Nakai must be kille, for it is written, ‘In secret places he slays the innocent (naqi)’” (Psalm 10:8). (b. Sanhedrin 43a; the passage continues in a similar way for Nezer, Buni and Todah)
And this, perhaps the most famous of Talmudic passages about Jesus:
“It was taught: On the day before the Passover they hanged Jesus. A herald went before him for forty days (proclaiming), “He will be stoned, because he practiced magic and enticed Israel to go astray. Let anyone who knows anything in his favor come forward and plead for him.” But nothing was found in his favor, and they hanged him on the day before the Passover. (b. Sanhedrin 43a)
From just these passages mentioning Jesus by name, we can conclude the following: _Jesus had magical powers, led the Jews away from their beliefs, had disciples who were martyred for their faith (one of whom was named Matthai), and was executed on the day before the Passover._
*The Toledot Yeshu (1000AD)*
The Toledot Yeshu is a medieval Jewish retelling of the life of Jesus. It is completely anti-Christian, to be sure. There are many versions of these ‘retellings’, and as part of the transmitted oral and written tradition of the Jews, we can presume their original place in antiquity, dating back to the time of Jesus’ first appearance as an influential leader who was drawing Jews away from their faith in the Law. The Toledot Yeshu contains a determined effort to explain away the miracles of Jesus and to deny the virgin birth. In some places, the text is quite vicious, but it does confirm many elements of the New Testament writings. Let’s take a look at a portion of the text (Jesus is called ‘Yehoshua’):
“In the year 3671 (in Jewish reckonging, it being ca 90 B.C.) in the days of King Jannaeus, a great misfortune befell Israel, when there arose a certain disreputable man of the tribe of Judah, whose name was Joseph Pandera. He lived at Bethlehem, in Judah. Near his house dwelt a widow and her lovely and chaste daughter named Miriam. Miriam was betrothed to Yohanan, of the royal house of David, a man learned in the Torah and God-fearing. At the close of a certain Sabbath, Joseph Pandera, attractive and like a warrior in appearance, having gazed lustfully upon Miriam, knocked upon the door of her room and betrayed her by pretending that he was her betrothed husband, Yohanan. Even so, she was amazed at this improper conduct and submitted only against her will. Thereafter, when Yohanan came to her, Miriam expressed astonishment at behavior so foreign to his character. It was thus that they both came to know the crime of Joseph Pandera and the terrible mistake on the part of Miriam… Miriam gave birth to a son and named him Yehoshua, after her brother. This name later deteriorated to Yeshu (“Yeshu” is the Jewish “name” for Jesus. It means “May His Name Be Blotted Out”). On the eighth day he was circumcised. When he was old enough the lad was taken by Miriam to the house of study to be instructed in the Jewish tradition. One day Yeshu walked in front of the Sages with his head uncovered, showing shameful disrespect. At this, the discussion arose as to whether this behavior did not truly indicate that Yeshu was an illegitimate child and the son of a niddah. Moreover, the story tells that while the rabbis were discussing the Tractate Nezikin, he gave his own impudent interpretation of the law and in an ensuing debate he held that Moses could not be the greatest of the prophets if he had to receive counsel from Jethro. This led to further inquiry as to the antecedents of Yeshu, and it was discovered through Rabban Shimeon ben Shetah that he was the illegitimate son of Joseph Pandera. Miriam admitted it. After this became known, it was necessary for Yeshu to flee to Upper Galilee. After King Jannaeus, his wife Helene ruled over all Israel. In the Temple was to be found the Foundation Stone on which were engraven the letters of God’s Ineffable Name. Whoever learned the secret of the Name and its use would be able to do whatever he wished. Therefore, the Sages took measures so that no one should gain this knowledge. Lions of brass were bound to two iron pillars at the gate of the place of burnt offerings. Should anyone enter and learn the Name, when he left the lions would roar at him and immediately the valuable secret would be forgotten. Yeshu came and learned the letters of the Name; he wrote them upon the parchment which he placed in an open cut on his thigh and then drew the flesh over the parchment. As he left, the lions roared and he forgot the secret. But when he came to his house he reopened the cut in his flesh with a knife an lifted out the writing. Then he remembered and obtained the use of the letters. He gathered about himself three hundred and ten young men of Israel and accused those who spoke ill of his birth of being people who desired greatness and power for themselves. Yeshu proclaimed, “I am the Messiah; and concerning me Isaiah prophesied and said, ‘Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.’” He quoted other messianic texts, insisting, “David my ancestor prophesied concerning me: ‘The Lord said to me, thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.’” The insurgents with him replied that if Yeshu was the Messiah he should give them a convincing sign. They therefore, brought to him a lame man, who had never walked. Yeshu spoke over the man the letters of the Ineffable Name, and the leper was healed. Thereupon, they worshipped him as the Messiah, Son of the Highest. When word of these happenings came to Jerusalem, the Sanhedrin decided to bring about the capture of Yeshu. They sent messengers, Annanui and Ahaziah, who, pretending to be his disciples, said that they brought him an invitation from the leaders of Jerusalem to visit them. Yeshu consented on condition the members of the Sanhedrin receive him as a lord. He started out toward Jerusalem and, arriving at Knob, acquired an *** on which he rode into Jerusalem, as a fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah. The Sages bound him and led him before Queen Helene, with the accusation: “This man is a sorcerer and entices everyone.” Yeshu replied, “The prophets long ago prophesied my coming: ‘And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse,’ and I am he; but as for them, Scripture says ‘Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly.’” Queen Helene asked the Sages: “What he says, is it in your Torah?” They replied: “It is in our Torah, but it is not applicable to him, for it is in Scripture: ‘And that prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.’ He has not fulfilled the signs and conditions of the Messiah.” Yeshu spoke up: “Madam, I am the Messiah and I revive the dead.” A dead body was brought in; he pronounced the letters of the Ineffable Name and the corpse came to life. The Queen was greatly moved and said:


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## j_seph (Jul 5, 2022)

“This is a true sign.” She reprimanded the Sages and sent them humiliated from her presence. Yeshu’s dissident followers increased and there was controversy in Israel. Yeshu went to Upper Galilee. the Sages came before the Queen, complaining that Yeshu practiced sorcery and was leading everyone astray. Therefore she sent Annanui and Ahaziah to fetch him. The found him in Upper Galilee, proclaiming himself the Son of God. When they tried to take him there was a struggle, but Yeshu said to the men of Upper Galilee: “Wage no battle.” He would prove himself by the power which came to him from his Father in heaven. He spoke the Ineffable Name over the birds of clay and they flew into the air. He spoke the same letters over a millstone that had been placed upon the waters. He sat in it and it floated like a boat. When they saw this the people marveled. At the behest of Yeshu, the emissaries departed and reported these wonders to the Queen. She trembled with astonishment. Then the Sages selected a man named Judah Iskarioto and brought him to the Sanctuary where he learned the letters of the Ineffable Name as Yeshu had done. When Yeshu was summoned before the queen, this time there were present also the Sages and Judah Iskarioto. Yeshu said: “It is spoken of me, ‘I will ascend into heaven.’” He lifted his arms like the wings of an eagle and he flew between heaven and earth, to the amazement of everyone…Yeshu was seized. His head was covered with a garment and he was smitten with pomegranate staves; but he could do nothing, for he no longer had the Ineffable Name. Yeshu was taken prisoner to the synagogue of Tiberias, and they bound him to a pillar. To allay his thirst they gave him vinegar to drink. On his head they set a crown of thorns. There was strife and wrangling between the elders and the unrestrained followers of Yeshu, as a result of which the followers escaped with Yeshu to the region of Antioch; there Yeshu remained until the eve of the Passover. Yeshu then resolved to go the Temple to acquire again the secret of the Name. That year the Passover came on a Sabbath day. On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu, accompanied by his disciples, came to Jerusalem riding upon an ***. Many bowed down before him. He entered the Temple with his three hundred and ten followers. One of them, Judah Iskarioto apprised the Sages that Yeshu was to be found in the Temple, that the disciples had taken a vow by the Ten Commandments not to reveal his identity but that he would point him out by bowing to him. So it was done and Yeshu was seized. Asked his name, he replied to the question by several times giving the names Mattai, Nakki, Buni, Netzer, each time with a verse quoted by him and a counter-verse by the Sages. Yeshu was put to death on the sixth hour on the eve of the Passover and of the Sabbath. When they tried to hang him on a tree it broke, for when he had possessed the power he had pronounced by the Ineffable Name that no tree should hold him. He had failed to pronounce the prohibition over the carob-stalk, for it was a plant more than a tree, and on it he was hanged until the hour for afternoon prayer, for it is written in Scripture, “His body shall not remain all night upon the tree.” They buried him outside the city. On the first day of the week his bold followers came to Queen Helene with the report that he who was slain was truly the Messiah and that he was not in his grave; he had ascended to heaven as he prophesied. Diligent search was made and he was not found in the grave where he had been buried. A gardener had taken him from the grave and had brought him into his garden and buried him in the sand over which the waters flowed into the garden. Queen Helene demanded, on threat of a severe penalty, that the body of Yeshu be shown to her within a period of three days. There was a great distress. When the keeper of the garden saw Rabbi Tanhuma walking in the field and lamenting over the ultimatum of the Queen, the gardener related what he had done, in order that Yeshu’s followers should not steal the body and then claim that he had ascended into heaven. The Sages removed the body, tied it to the tail of a horse and transported it to the Queen, with the words, “This is Yeshu who is said to have ascended to heaven.” Realizing that Yeshu was a false prophet who enticed the people and led them astray, she mocked the followers but praised the Sages.
Now in spite of the fact that the ancient Jews who wrote this did their best to argue for another interpretation of the life of Christ, they did make several claims here about Jesus. This passage, along with several others from the Toledot tradition, confirm: _Jesus claimed to be the Messiah, healed the lame, said Isaiah foretold of His life, was worshipped as God, arrested by the Jews, beaten with rods, given vinegar to drink, wore a crown of thorns, rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, was betrayed by a man named Judah Iskarioto, and had followers who claimed He was resurrected and ascended, leaving an empty tomb._


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

660griz said:


> Easy, don't create other Gods.


Well, basically, that is all that that means.


> Sensitive fellow. Out of all the things he has an opportunity to call out...this is what he comes up with.


Sensitive could be possible. But it is simply this - if you are going to love Him, do not undermine it with hypocrisy.



> So, can't hold a God to a higher standard?    Interesting.


Ok so if there is a Deity that is at the top of the food chain, exactly who is going to Him to whos standards?  Non belief is actually ok, at least it is a stance. But, I have never understood the questions of "how do this work" to only get a reply that is based on feelings - if you want to express your feelings that can be done without asking questions. You can hate Him if you want, that is your choice.


> First, I don't look at my relationship with my wife in that way. Rightfully, mine? She loves me for me, I love her for her. If she decides she loves somebody else, don't let the door hit ya in the....


You are looking at it as an ownership of a person scenario, that is not what this means. I married her, she is mine to take care of.........no other man needs to be in that mix, it is not his place, it is mine. If a man does not take care of his wife he is a dirt bag. And of course, if she wants to walk away, ok, don`t let the door hit ya........I don`t want anyone that does not want me.



> Not sure I agree it is THAT kind of jealously. My wife can't blink a planet into existence. She is a good cook though.


I hear ya but visit another chick today, FaceTime your wife with the chick and see what kind of jealously comes out.

1. feeling or showing envy of someone or their achievements and advantages.
"he grew *jealous of* her success"

2. feeling or showing suspicion of someone's unfaithfulness in a relationship.
"a jealous boyfriend

3. fiercely protective or vigilant of one's rights or possessions.
"Howard is still a little *jealous of* his authority"

You wont get #1. You already passed # 2 because there is no need for suspicion when you FaceTime..............I am sure to your wife, you are "her man"............most likely the other chick better find a rock to hide under pretty fast. If either keeps you, you will be at #2 for a while, though.


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

Dang Jseph.........you giving izzy a run for his money on lengthy posts lol


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## bullethead (Jul 5, 2022)

j_seph said:


> *Thallus (52AD)*
> Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who previously tried to explain away the darkness occurring at Jesus’ crucifixion:
> “On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)
> If only more of Thallus’ record could be found, we might find more confirmation of Jesus’ crucifixion. But there are some things we can conclude from this account: _Jesus lived, He was crucified, and there was an earthquake and darkness at the point of His crucifixion._
> ...


Please post the link that came from. Unless something has changed those sources have been countered and debunked in this forum many times long ago.
Can't wait for the scholarly debunked later additions of Josephus to be presented.


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## bullethead (Jul 5, 2022)

j_seph said:


> *Josephus (37-101AD)*
> In more detail than any other non-biblical historian, Josephus writes about Jesus in his “the Antiquities of the Jews” in 93AD. Josephus was born just four years after the crucifixion. He was a consultant for Jewish rabbis at an early age, became a Galilean military commander by the age of sixteen, and he was an eyewitness to much of what he recorded in the first century A.D. Under the rule of Roman emperor Vespasian, Josephus was allowed to write a history of the Jews. This history includes three passages about Christians, one in which he describes the death of John the Baptist, one in which he mentions the execution of James (and describes him as the brother of Jesus the Christ), and a final passage which describes Jesus as a wise man and the messiah. There is much legitimate controversy about the writing of Josephus, because the first discoveries of his writings are late enough to have been re-written by Christians who were accused of making additions to the text. So to be fair, we’ll examine a scholarly reconstruction stripped of Christian embellishment:
> “Now around this time lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was a worker of amazing deeds and was a teacher of people who gladly accept the truth. He won over both many Jews and many Greeks. Pilate, when he heard him accused by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, (but) those who had first loved him did not cease (doing so). To this day the tribe of Christians named after him has not disappeared” (This neutral reconstruction follows closely the one proposed by John Meier, _A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus: The Roots of the Problem and the Person_).
> Now there are many other ancient versions of Josephus’ writing which are even more explicit about the nature of Jesus’ miracles, life and his status as the Christ, but let’s take this conservative version and see what we can learn. From this text, we can conclude: _Jesus lived in Palestine, was a wise man and a teacher, worked amazing deeds, was accused by the Jews, crucified under Pilate and had followers called Christians._
> ...


I spoke too soon regarding Josephus


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## bullethead (Jul 5, 2022)

https://stellarhousepublishing.com/josephus/


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## bullethead (Jul 5, 2022)

https://historyforatheists.com/2017/09/jesus-mythicism-1-the-tacitus-reference-to-jesus/


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## bullethead (Jul 5, 2022)

https://infidels.org/library/modern/gordon-stein-jesus/


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## j_seph (Jul 5, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Please post the link that came from. Unless something has changed those sources have been countered and debunked in this forum many times long ago.
> Can't wait for the scholarly debunked later additions of Josephus to be presented.


https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/


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## bullethead (Jul 5, 2022)

j_seph said:


> https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/


I am almost certain that it was you and I in this similar conversation the last time.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That’s another way to look at it. But you’ll be hard pressed to find anyone in this because of that. If that’s what brings them in, they usually last less than 6 months. So, being in this and witnessing that - I don’t buy it that it’s happening with the ability to retain.
> 
> Do you love your wife for who and what she is to you or do you only do it so she won’t divorce you?



You honestly don't think that a significant percentage of people become Christians (or remain Christians if they brought up in a Christian family) because of the fear of the hot place? I know the percentage is dropping from what it used to be, but then a lot of church doctrines are changing along with society in general. But I would think that fear is still present, just buried way, way back in people's subconscious. Then again, I'm not a trained psychologist or psychiatrist. 

Yes, I love my wife for who she is. As for divorcing me, if you are ready to assume payments, she can be yours TODAY!  Just kidding folks!


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## buckpasser (Jul 5, 2022)

@Spotlite 

Do you have any rabbits available right now?  I’m thinking about getting a couple for my kids again. Thanks!


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 5, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/****-bible-verses/


That link would not pull up for me.  just so you know, I don't believe in he11 for non believers. I believe it to be for those whom were deceived by the antichrist, the imposter christ. I don't believe Jesus ever spoke of the hot place in the context that it is used today.


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 5, 2022)

Would not let me respond. The leter count was to high to reply...

Here is my response.... I enjoy reading this type of literature. You can see what it is they believed. Was glad to see the source seemed neutral. My opinion is that they are discussing the exact way we are. Looking at the writings that we now call the NT and possibly some more. When they refer to the earth quakes, for example. I don't believe them to be in knowledge of this except through the writing we now have. What I see is the same thing we are doing now, just waaaay back then. The fact that they are writing about it shows it was in question then. Being a believer, I find it interesting, yet it does not change my faith. It will always be a hard sell. Actually, I don't like that terminology. I don't try to sell it.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 5, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> That link would not pull up for me.  just so you know, I don't believe in he11 for non believers. I believe it to be for those whom were deceived by the antichrist, the imposter christ. I don't believe Jesus ever spoke of the hot place in the context that it is used today.



Interesting opinion! If I'm getting this right, skeptics AKA "non-believers" don't go to Hotterville (like Hooterville but it's hot! Get it?)  but the people who_ are "_believers" but just picked the fake Jesus instead of the real Jesus _do _go to Hotterville! 
What a twist!


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 5, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Interesting opinion! If I'm getting this right, skeptics AKA "non-believers" don't go to Hotterville (like Hooterville but it's hot! Get it?)  but the people who_ are "_believers" but just picked the fake Jesus instead of the real Jesus _do _go to Hotterville!
> What a twist!


Yep, you likely will not find that view anywhere but right here. Little ole me, all alone


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> You honestly don't think that a significant percentage of people become Christians (or remain Christians if they brought up in a Christian family) because of the fear of the hot place? I know the percentage is dropping from what it used to be, but then a lot of church doctrines are changing along with society in general. But I would think that fear is still present, just buried way, way back in people's subconscious. Then again, I'm not a trained psychologist or psychiatrist.
> 
> Yes, I love my wife for who she is. As for divorcing me, if you are ready to assume payments, she can be yours TODAY!  Just kidding folks!


I never said they might not come. The issue is it don’t retain them. It’s not enough to keep them there long. Lol I have one wife, she’s expensive enough!!!


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## Spotlite (Jul 5, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> @Spotlite
> 
> Do you have any rabbits available right now?  I’m thinking about getting a couple for my kids again. Thanks!


I do. I’ll send you a pm.


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## buckpasser (Jul 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I do. I’ll send you a pm.



Thanks!


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 6, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That’s another way to look at it. But you’ll be hard pressed to find anyone in this because of that. If that’s what brings them in, they usually last less than 6 months. So, being in this and witnessing that - I don’t buy it that it’s happening with the ability to retain.
> 
> Do you love your wife for who and what she is to you or do you only do it so she won’t divorce you?


I asked that question on one of the Christian forums and a few said they didn't see the point of Christianity without a belief in He11. That salvation was escaping from that place. Therefore they would not believe in Jesus or be a Christian if there was not a He11.

I guess their belief was more fear motivated than love. Plus on this forum many Christians say, well I'm not gonna take that chance, why are ya'll willing to do that? If I were ya'll I'd believe for that reason.
So it stands to reason that is why many on this forum see it as a fear motivated reason.


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## Spotlite (Jul 6, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> That link would not pull up for me.  just so you know, I don't believe in he11 for non believers. I believe it to be for those whom were deceived by the antichrist, the imposter christ. I don't believe Jesus ever spoke of the hot place in the context that it is used today.


Numerous passages where Jesus spoke of the hot places.

If it’s not for non believers what do you with this;

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be dumbed.”

Believeth not = non belief. Where / what is “dumb nation” referred to in multiple places?

I had to change the spelling due to the censorship but you get my drift. Admin / Mod if that’s considered typing around the censor, I apologize and please delete.


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## Spotlite (Jul 6, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I asked that question on one of the Christian forums and a few said they didn't see the point of Christianity without a belief in He11. That salvation was escaping from that place. Therefore they would not believe in Jesus or be a Christian if there was not a He11.
> 
> I guess their belief was more fear motivated than love. Plus on this forum many Christians say, well I'm not gonna take that chance, why are ya'll willing to do that? If I were ya'll I'd believe for that reason.
> So it stands to reason that is why many on this page see it as a fear motivated reason.


Go back in two years and see if they’re still there. I believe it’s an attraction, but I haven’t see it have the ability to keep them.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 6, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Numerous passages where Jesus spoke of the hot places.
> 
> If it’s not for non believers what do you with this;
> 
> ...


"The soul that sinneth, it shall die."
"The wages of sin is death."
"The day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."
"But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked."
 "He who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. 

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in he11.
("apollumi" means to perish, be destroyed, kill or caused to die.) 

He11 does exist but if you are bad, you die when you die. Believers gain eternal life.


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## j_seph (Jul 6, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I am almost certain that it was you and I in this similar conversation the last time.


Well it has always been said you got to stand for something. Just goes to show that you and I can stand for something, even though it is totally opposite we are still standing.


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## bullethead (Jul 6, 2022)

j_seph said:


> Well it has always been said you got to stand for something. Just goes to show that you and I can stand for something, even though it is totally opposite we are still standing.


While I can appreciate what you're saying I just cannot comprehend why someone would continually use the examples you keep using even after they have been shown to be incorrect, later additions and forgeries that are recognized to be as such by theological scholars and officials.
It is best to stand on solid ground and not quicksand.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 6, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I asked that question on one of the Christian forums and a few said they didn't see the point of Christianity without a belief in He11. That salvation was escaping from that place. Therefore they would not believe in Jesus or be a Christian if there was not a He11.
> 
> I guess their belief was more fear motivated than love. Plus on this forum many Christians say, well I'm not gonna take that chance, why are ya'll willing to do that? If I were ya'll I'd believe for that reason.
> So it stands to reason that is why many on this forum see it as a fear motivated reason.



Thanks for your input! And I don't want to assume, but if many believers on this forum (in the Christian thread you mentioned) see Hotterville as a strong motivation, other Christians across the nation do also. 

That said, I remember from way back in the day - when I attended church because it meant something to my wife - a woman saying to the congregation something like "even if there was no heaven, the Christian life would still be worth it". 
There is a saying I think "virtue is its own reward".


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## j_seph (Jul 6, 2022)

bullethead said:


> While I can appreciate what you're saying I just cannot comprehend why someone would continually use the examples you keep using even after they have been shown to be incorrect, later additions and forgeries that are recognized to be as such by theological scholars and officials.
> It is best to stand on solid ground and not quicksand.


I just soon build mine on the Rock ;-)

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


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## Spotlite (Jul 6, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> "The soul that sinneth, it shall die."
> "The wages of sin is death."
> "The day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."
> "But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked."
> ...


Read Matthew 10:28 again.

Where is the soul destroyed? Don’t forget, there are numerous scriptures pertaining to where the unjust go.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 6, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> "The soul that sinneth, it shall die."
> "The wages of sin is death."
> "The day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."
> "But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked."
> ...



If your interpretation is correct, then IMHO this is fair & just. 
If you're a bad boy, you don't get to go to the eternal party! You become worm dirt and your consciousness dies with you. There's no sense to sending Hitler to the same place as people who just have a difference in opinion on religion but are otherwise fine upstanding citizens. 

Sidenote I have heard quite a few believers (not on GON forum) say that atheism is just an excuse to sin all you want with no accountability! 
Yep, you got me pegged, Cletus!  I can't put anything past you. 
If that isn't "an argument from ignorance" I don't know what is.


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## bullethead (Jul 6, 2022)

j_seph said:


> I just soon build mine on the Rock ;-)
> 
> 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
> 
> ...


All that hallmark stuff doesn't change the fact that the examples you continue to use as evidence for Jesus outside of the Bible have been shown to be wrong, later additions, forgeries or at the very least someone repeating something that they've heard without being witness themselves. The words used in some don't even mean Christ, they are just close enough that it sounds good so people buy it.
You know better but use it to further an agenda rather than admit the truth.
If that is the rock you so choose, so be it.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 6, 2022)

bullethead said:


> While I can appreciate what you're saying I just cannot comprehend why someone would continually use the examples you keep using even after they have been shown to be incorrect, later additions and forgeries that are recognized to be as such by theological scholars and officials.
> It is best to stand on solid ground and not quicksand.




I see your point, but I also see two people that are just standing by their convictions.  The two basic worldviews (science versus faith) have two different "operating systems" to relate it to computer terms. _Science operates on quicksand_ (but in a good way)! Allow me to explain my reasoning: 

science is based on a constantly changing "truth" depending on the addition of new data and knowledge that is peer reviewed and evaluated. Science needs to have their beliefs challenged, because that's the only way to discard what turns out to be inadequate or obsolete truth. It has a goal that can never be reached until our species is gone. Religion - Christianity to be specific - has its entire canon set in stone (literally with the 10 Commandments) and cannot change. All Christians can do is reinterpret what has already been written for many centuries. God isn't giving Christianity any more information or revising current information. Christian scholars, apologetics, clergy and laymen alike have no offense, only defense in sporting terminology. Christianity - or any religion - can never be proved and the odds of proving it diminish every day as science advances. 

Bottom line it does seem frustrating - bordering on unbelievable - how Christians cannot - or refuse to - admit when an aspect of their belief has been proven wrong.
But in their defense, their belief is all they have. If I have misread or offended any believers that's not my intention, this is just my 2 cents on how I see science versus religion playing out.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 6, 2022)

j_seph said:


> I just soon build mine on the Rock ;-)
> 
> 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
> 
> ...



HOWEVER (not to be a smarty pants or anything) if God goes Old Testament and floods the world again, your house can be built on that GIANT rock in Australia and you are still toast!


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## WaltL1 (Jul 6, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> If your interpretation is correct, then IMHO this is fair & just.
> If you're a bad boy, you don't get to go to the eternal party! You become worm dirt and your consciousness dies with you. There's no sense to sending Hitler to the same place as people who just have a difference in opinion on religion but are otherwise fine upstanding citizens.
> 
> Sidenote I have heard quite a few believers (not on GON forum) say that atheism is just an excuse to sin all you want with no accountability!
> ...





> Sidenote I have heard quite a few believers (not on GON forum) say that atheism is just an excuse to sin all you want with no accountability!


Have been told that here several times over the years. Will probably hear it again.


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## bullethead (Jul 6, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I see your point, but I also see two people that are just standing by their convictions.  The two basic worldviews (science versus faith) have two different "operating systems" to relate it to computer terms. _Science operates on quicksand_ (but in a good way)! Allow me to explain my reasoning:
> 
> science is based on a constantly changing "truth" depending on the addition of new data and knowledge that is peer reviewed and evaluated. Science needs to have their beliefs challenged, because that's the only way to discard what turns out to be inadequate or obsolete truth. It has a goal that can never be reached until our species is gone. Religion - Christianity to be specific - has its entire canon set in stone (literally with the 10 Commandments) and cannot change. All Christians can do is reinterpret what has already been written for many centuries. God isn't giving Christianity any more information or revising current information. Christian scholars, apologetics, clergy and laymen alike have no offense, only defense in sporting terminology. Christianity - or any religion - can never be proved and the odds of proving it diminish every day as science advances.
> 
> ...


Facts are Facts. Not knowing them and posting is one thing. Knowing them and continuing to post the false versions goes beyond convictions.


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## j_seph (Jul 6, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> HOWEVER (not to be a smarty pants or anything) if God goes Old Testament and floods the world again, your house can be built on that GIANT rock in Australia and you are still toast!


LoL, I believe if one reads it will not be flood


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## j_seph (Jul 6, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Facts are Facts. Not knowing them and posting is one thing. Knowing them and continuing to post the false versions goes beyond convictions.


However what are your facts? Your facts, just as my facts are based on someone else, somewhere else, at another date and time. This is you basing what you feel or believe off of someone else. No difference, other than my faith is more on the testimonies and writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul etc. 
I just know that no man has yet to create something out of nothing.


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## bullethead (Jul 6, 2022)

j_seph said:


> However what are your facts? Your facts, just as my facts are based on someone else, somewhere else, at another date and time. This is you basing what you feel or believe off of someone else. No difference, other than my faith is more on the testimonies and writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul etc.
> I just know that no man has yet to create something out of nothing.


The links provided sources. The sources researched the writings and found the faults. These are not anti Jesus sources. Theistic and historical sources are used and their findings are backed up with examples.
It isn't just people saying what they want and hoping someone else falls for it. I really don't care if you agree with them or not but obviously you cannot discredit their findings. All I can do is inform you.

What does your comment about creating something out of nothing mean?
Has anyone claimed that a man ever has?
Other than beleivers, has anyone ever claimed there was ever a time when nothing existed?

Do you know of any man who is 400ft tall and indestructible who gets a kick out of flattening large cities with his work boots?
That is now 2 ridiculous things that you are now sure of.


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## j_seph (Jul 6, 2022)

@bullethead So I assume, you see it as you are here, you die, the End


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## bullethead (Jul 6, 2022)

j_seph said:


> @bullethead So I assume, you see it as you are here, you die, the End


j_seph, I would honestly like to convince myself there is more. I'd like to believe in all of the different man made possibilities to what happens after death.
I certainly do not know of anything for sure and I am not going to try to hedge by bets by choosing one or all just to cover myself.
I don't remember a thing before I was born if my soul was in some waiting room then and I don't have the slightest interest in wanting to or even thinking about living in some insane utopia for eternity. I get bored with repetitive nonsense as it is.
Sure it bums me out to realize my own mortality. If something extends my time I'll find out when it happens not console myself with fantasy beforehand.


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## j_seph (Jul 6, 2022)

bullethead said:


> j_seph, I would honestly like to convince myself there is more. I'd like to believe in all of the different man made possibilities to what happens after death.
> I certainly do not know of anything for sure and I am not going to try to hedge by bets by choosing one or all just to cover myself.
> I don't remember a thing before I was born if my soul was in some waiting room then and I don't have the slightest interest in wanting to or even thinking about living in some insane utopia for eternity. I get bored with repetitive nonsense as it is.
> Sure it bums me out to realize my own mortality. If something extends my time I'll find out when it happens not console myself with fantasy beforehand.


Maybe you can find some down time and listen 



or maybe this one 



.
If not oh well


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 6, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Facts are Facts. Not knowing them and posting is one thing. Knowing them and continuing to post the false versions goes beyond convictions.


 
The people posting probably don't accept that their versions are false. "The experts don't know what they are talking about" excuse might be in play here.


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## bullethead (Jul 6, 2022)

j_seph said:


> Maybe you can find some down time and listen
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will take the time to listen to both of those. There was a time in my life that I mostly read(pre and early stages of Internet) about experiences, people coming back from the dead, tales of heaven and an afterlife etc. Once the internet got rolling I was already into my stages of checking into what testimonies were available from followers of other religions. I was actually hoping to find some exclusiveness towards Christian testimonies compared to the others. I wanted to find that Christians were healed at greater rates than others even if not exclusively.  Again, the more I dig, the more I researched OUTSIDE of biased sources and checked into equally biased sources I found that nobody had an advantage over the next and apparently all Gods and belief systems are capable of afterlifes, healings, savings, unexplainable medical turnarounds and on and on and on. The internet is full of examples of no matter which belief system a person wants to hear about.
I used to get really emotionally charged in my Christian years when hearing about such things. There was I time that I felt guilty for losing that feeling. 
I have never had anyone that I knew well who passed on, friends or family, that knew me well and my current thoughts about religion that has come back to give me any sort of sign. I had literal years worth of in depth conversations with my M-I-L who was as staunch of a Christian as I've ever encountered and I am convinced that if anyone would and therefore could lay an Enlightening Wiser-Upper on me it will have been her. Coming up on 10yrs gone shortly and a dish rag that was draped over the sink ending up on the floor is not cause for me to connect any more dots than it fell no matter how much of a clean freak she was. I am looking for signs but SIGNS.


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## bullethead (Jul 6, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> The people posting probably don't accept that their versions are false. "The experts don't know what they are talking about" excuse might be in play here.


Suspension of facts and no wishes to look into them further because they don't want to know anything more.
I get it. It's hard.
But the constant posting of debnked material only works where similar people who think the same gather.
It doesn't fly in here no matter how many times it's tried to be used.


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## bullethead (Jul 6, 2022)

j_seph said:


> Maybe you can find some down time and listen
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Regarding the 1st video:
I, at soon to be 53, have never done an illegal drug, never have taken anything stronger than Ibuprofen or Tylenol, never had a cigarette to my lips and have not had a cup of coffee. Been with the same woman since we are 15 and 16. Raised 3 grown Sons. Been self employed for 34 years.
I have no need to pray to want to change any of that.

If the Devil uses Hasbro OUJI boards as his portal to the earthly world he is skimping on quality and is of no concern to me.

The secular "acknowledgement" this is using is no different than someone today repeating what they've heard.
"Followers meet on a certain day to pray and worship Jesus as God"
What EXACTLY does that prove other than people doing such things? Other people meet and worship other gods....AND? Are those deities just as valid because someone speaks of their practices??? Does acknowledging a particular religions practices authenticate their God as being valid? None, not one of those outside sources saw Jesus in action and wrote about it. Some vaguely mention things they've heard, some use the wrong words such as "Chrestos" which does not mean Christ but beleivers gobble it up because it's close enough. And some are later additions inserted much later by then Church leaders to try to underhandedly change what was written (Josephus) into something he never wrote at all.

I'm positive that I wouldn't send my kids to a camp run by a former coke using acid dropping meth-head who needs zip lines to tie fun into relating with Jesus.

He, and many like him need a Good News of many sorts. Dependency isn't just about drugs but recovery usually involves replacing one Dependency with another.

*edited for spelling


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 6, 2022)

j_seph said:


> LoL, I believe if one reads it will not be flood



How about the mother-of-all earthquakes?  God caused a small earthquake when Jesus died on the cross according to one of the four gospels, so an earthquake is still on the table in God's "smite" arsenal!


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## bullethead (Jul 6, 2022)

j_seph said:


> Maybe you can find some down time and listen
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Half way through #2..
I am seeing a pattern between both speakers.


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## bullethead (Jul 6, 2022)

j_seph said:


> Maybe you can find some down time and listen
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just being honest,#2 was painful to watch and it wasn't sympathy. I had to fast fwd through the last 1/3.
I am not sure what message you wanted to portray but I beleive you and I got two completely different takes on each.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 6, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I will take the time to listen to both of those. There was a time in my life that I mostly read(pre and early stages of Internet) about experiences, people coming back from the dead, tales of heaven and an afterlife etc. Once the internet got rolling I was already into my stages of checking into what testimonies were available from followers of other religions. I was actually hoping to find some exclusiveness towards Christian testimonies compared to the others. I wanted to find that Christians were healed at greater rates than others even if not exclusively.  Again, the more I dig, the more I researched OUTSIDE of biased sources and checked into equally biased sources I found that nobody had an advantage over the next and apparently all Gods and belief systems are capable of afterlifes, healings, savings, unexplainable medical turnarounds and on and on and on. The internet is full of examples of no matter which belief system a person wants to hear about.
> I used to get really emotionally charged in my Christian years when hearing about such things. There was I time that I felt guilty for losing that feeling.
> I have never had anyone that I knew well who passed on, friends or family, that knew me well and my current thoughts about religion that has come back to give me any sort of sign. I had literal years worth of in depth conversations with my M-I-L who was as staunch of a Christian as I've ever encountered and I am convinced that if anyone would and therefore could lay an Enlightening Wiser-Upper on me it will have been her. Coming up on 10yrs gone shortly and a dish rag that was draped over the sink ending up on the floor is not cause for me to connect any more dots than it fell no matter how much of a clean freak she was. I am looking for signs but SIGNS.



Hmmm....... if she was a "clean freak" then the dish rag left on the floor would end up draped over the sink. That would mean the rag didn't just fall, it defied gravity and the rag was dutifully moved by a clean freak spirit, obviously the MIL. 

Sidenote (make of this what you will) when my father-in-law died my mother-in-law, my daughter, my wife's sister and her daughter (my wife's niece) were there together in my MIL house when my FIL took his last breath. They were all gathered there because he was on hospice care and morphine, so death was coming fast. After the funeral home people took his body away, the next day the whole group of them went down grab some food and bring it back to the house. My daughter SWEARS that she witnessed the following, but I never got a chance to ask the other family members:

when they came through the door after getting their food, a family picture that had been hanging on the wall separating the living room from the kitchen was propped up against the wall on the other side of the living room, near the front door. The distance from where it was hanging to where it ended up was about fifteen feet.
 Let's examine this with an open mind:

1. if the picture fell off the wall, gravity would dictate it would be underneath (or at least near) the spot where it was last hanging. If it hit the floor with enough force to bounce it fifteen feet, the glass encasing the framed picture would very likely be damaged, but the picture was intact.

2. my daughter (along with the rest of the group) was emotionally devastated so likely "everything was a blur" and her thinking/memory is unreliable.

3. it was a legit sign "from beyond the grave!" because there are perfectly natural things that science has yet to discover because they are erratic & unpredictable.

4. my daughter was outright lying. 

Regardless, it's pretty freaky!


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## bullethead (Jul 6, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Hmmm....... if she was a "clean freak" then the dish rag left on the floor would end up draped over the sink. That would mean the rag didn't just fall, it defied gravity and the rag was dutifully moved by a clean freak spirit, obviously the MIL.
> 
> Sidenote (make of this what you will) when my father-in-law died my mother-in-law, my daughter, my wife's sister and her daughter (my wife's niece) were there together in my MIL house when my FIL took his last breath. They were all gathered there because he was on hospice care and morphine, so death was coming fast. After the funeral home people took his body away, the next day the whole group of them went down grab some food and bring it back to the house. My daughter SWEARS that she witnessed the following, but I never got a chance to ask the other family members:
> 
> ...


Agree 100% on Dish rag assessment.

If/when I die and IF I am somehow able to reach out to friends oor family to make my presence known....
Would moving a picture be the best most 100% surfire way to remove all doubt and prove anything?
I mean if I have the ability to "do" something I'd wait until a few could see it as it is happening rather than leave any doubt as to what might have happened. 
Float the picture across the room as people are in the room (just using your example). Draw, "Go get the family" on a steamy bathroom mirror and continue to spell out "I am ok, I love you all, everything is even better than you can imagine, dont rush it, Ill see you all soon enough" as they all stand there watching it spell out. Personally they would know it is me because I'd spell out "Hitler tookmy bags to the room and the air-conditioning must not be working because man it is HOT here"
Basically leave no doubt.


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 6, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Numerous passages where Jesus spoke of the hot places.
> 
> If it’s not for non believers what do you with this;
> 
> ...


Sometime, we should create a thread to go through this topic of the hot place. In the end, all that will remain is a parable about a man who wants to tell his brothers not to come to this place. And a verse or 2 in Revelation that I attribute to the "fallen", those once believers


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## Spotlite (Jul 6, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> Sometime, we should create a thread to go through this topic of the hot place. In the end, all that will remain is a parable about a man who wants to tell his brothers not to come to this place. And a verse or 2 in Revelation that I attribute to the "fallen", those once believers


I’m not positive that I’d agree that is all there is to it but I think you’re right - it’s definitely a topic that should be discussed. 

And I’m not saying “I’m right” - I am saying I believe there’s more because I’ve read a lot more than that ^^^ on the topic.


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 6, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> Sometime, we should create a thread to go through this topic of the hot place. In the end, all that will remain is a parable about a man who wants to tell his brothers not to come to this place. And a verse or 2 in Revelation that I attribute to the "fallen", those once believers


The discussion should focus on "destroy" or eternal torment. If you look into it, you will quickly see the ambigious nature of the verses that the modern day church applies this theology. As a matter of fact, it should not even be referred to as ambigious. The verses in no way point to anything other than destruction.. The bible contrast eternal life against death. Eternal death would mean irreversible. Not death for ever and ever as if in some conscience state. Once you look at the greek words and apply what the writer was conveying, not the church of today, it becomes clear that this is a modern day invention. And it becomes apparent, once seen, that the fight for it reveals that Christians want it. But just as the eternal fallen angels, whom are eternal, what is God to do with them, since they are eternal? How about Christians whom have been deceived by the antichrist? They have fallen for the identity thief of an imposter posing as Christ after having been given eternal life? They have become one with him. There is wrath ahead for these. I hope it's not their version of he11. See rev 14-9 + for whom he11 is for. All else will be destroyed in the fire. The context of Rev is punishment for... the ones taking the mark, the prostitute, Babaylon. All one in the same. No context for unbelievers here.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 6, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> The discussion should focus on "destroy" or eternal torment. If you look into it, you will quickly see the ambigious nature of the verses that the modern day church applies this theology. As a matter of fact, it should not even be referred to as ambigious. The verses in no way point to anything other than destruction.. The bible contrast eternal life against death. Eternal death would mean irreversible. Not death for ever and ever as if in some conscience state. Once you look at the greek words and apply what the writer was conveying, not the church of today, it becomes clear that this is a modern day invention. And it becomes apparent, once seen, that the fight for it reveals that Christians want it. But just as the eternal fallen angels, whom are eternal, what is God to do with them, since they are eternal? How about Christians whom have been deceived by the antichrist? They have fallen for the identity thief of an imposter posing as Christ after having been given eternal life? They have become one with him. There is wrath ahead for these. I hope it's not their version of he11. See rev 14-9 + for whom he11 is for. All else will be destroyed in the fire. The context of Rev is punishment for... the ones taking the mark, the prostitute, Babaylon. All one in the same. No context for unbelievers here.



I don't see why falling for the tricks of a fake Jesus would be "becoming one" with the fake Jesus. I guess the question would be would only_ believers _be tricked by the fake Jesus, or would an unbeliever _also _be tricked by the fake Jesus? Why are the believers expected to be able to tell it's the fake Jesus but not the non-believers? Obviously, the fake Jesus must be a very talented trickster! 

That said IMHO the Greek words concerning death, Hotterville, destruction, etc. would be the most accurate when it comes to interpreting the New Testament. Hebrew would apply for the Old Testament. This would more closely match the timeframe of when they were written. 

Also, the Jews don't even believe in Hotterville as described by Christianity. Their religion doesn't focus much on an afterlife. So Hebrew - in which context completely changes almost everything they write - wouldn't work as well regarding the concept at all.


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 6, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I don't see why falling for the tricks of a fake Jesus would be "becoming one" with the fake Jesus. I guess the question would be would only_ believers _be tricked by the fake Jesus, or would an unbeliever _also _be tricked by the fake Jesus? Why are the believers expected to be able to tell it's the fake Jesus but not the non-believers? Obviously, the fake Jesus must be a very talented trickster!
> 
> That said IMHO the Greek words concerning death, Hotterville, destruction, etc. would be the most accurate when it comes to interpreting the New Testament. Hebrew would apply for the Old Testament. This would more closely match the timeframe of when they were written.
> 
> Also, the Jews don't even believe in Hotterville as described by Christianity. Their religion doesn't focus much on an afterlife. So Hebrew - in which context completely changes almost everything they write - wouldn't work as well regarding the concept at all.


It's an analogy of the church being the bride that was stolen while Jesus is away. She is referred to as a prostitute, harlot, etc. Whether you see how it fits or not, this is the context written. I like to look at it from Erhman's perspective. He does not approach it as if he believes it or not. He just discusses what is written


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 6, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I don't see why falling for the tricks of a fake Jesus would be "becoming one" with the fake Jesus. I guess the question would be would only_ believers _be tricked by the fake Jesus, or would an unbeliever _also _be tricked by the fake Jesus? Why are the believers expected to be able to tell it's the fake Jesus but not the non-believers? Obviously, the fake Jesus must be a very talented trickster!
> 
> That said IMHO the Greek words concerning death, Hotterville, destruction, etc. would be the most accurate when it comes to interpreting the New Testament. Hebrew would apply for the Old Testament. This would more closely match the timeframe of when they were written.
> 
> Also, the Jews don't even believe in Hotterville as described by Christianity. Their religion doesn't focus much on an afterlife. So Hebrew - in which context completely changes almost everything they write - wouldn't work as well regarding the concept at all.


I actually don't believe it to be a real antichrist... but rather a belief. A denomination. I will refrain from going into detail on that one but believe the mark is a baptism


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 6, 2022)

Man, there is lot of symbolism & hidden meanings in the Bible. It's fiction to me, which is a good thing, because if I thought it was a guide to living and God's way of communicating, I would be pretty disappointed to say the least.


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## Spotlite (Jul 6, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> I actually don't believe it to be a real antichrist... but rather a belief. A denomination. I will refrain from going into detail on that one but believe the mark is a baptism


Out of curiosity - how do you conclude it may be a baptism?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 6, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Out of curiosity - how do you conclude it may be a baptism?



Good question! How would a baptism leave a visible mark? Unless the baptism pool had sharks with laser beams!


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## Spotlite (Jul 6, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Good question! How would a baptism leave a visible mark? Unless the baptism pool had sharks with laser beams!


Yea unless I’m missing something it’s pretty clearly written “to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:”

I’m not sure how whatever the language that was translated meant mark, hand, and forehead everywhere else but here it means baptism??

Im not knocking it - I just don’t follow.


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 6, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Out of curiosity - how do you conclude it may be a baptism?


We have to think in terms of how, in the writers time period, how  they understood things... Not in ours. Ephesians 1:13, Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal.....referring to the Holy Spirit. But, clearly referencing an assumed belief.  Belief, marked and seal could be linked together. My opinion is that this is an assumed thought of that time period and Paul is making a parallel analogy referring to believers and the Holy Spirit. For instance, some or most Christians are baptized into the triune formula. That would be their mark.


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 6, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> We have to think in terms of how, in the writers time period, how  they understood things... Not in ours. Ephesians 1:13, Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal.....referring to the Holy Spirit. But, clearly referencing an assumed belief.  Belief, marked and seal could be linked together. My opinion is that this is an assumed thought of that time period and Paul is making a parallel analogy referring to believers and the Holy Spirit. For instance, some or most Christians are baptized into the triune formula. That would be their mark.


Also see Rev 14-1 to see another supportive verse. The lamb... 144000 with him {jesus} whom had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads


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## Spotlite (Jul 6, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> We have to think in terms of how, in the writers time period, how  they understood things... Not in ours. Ephesians 1:13, Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal.....referring to the Holy Spirit. But, clearly referencing an assumed belief.  Belief, marked and seal could be linked together. My opinion is that this is an assumed thought of that time period and Paul is making a parallel analogy referring to believers and the Holy Spirit. For instance, some or most Christians are baptized into the triune formula. That would be their mark.


Ok those are good points. Well worth my time digging into to that view.


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## 1gr8buildit (Jul 7, 2022)

Israel said:


> Do you mean at all the difference between some understanding of "hidden with Christ in God" as a work of the Holy Spirit...as opposed to say some perception or iteration of a stylized Cerberus?


I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 7, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question



I don't even understand the language!  You guys are lightyears ahead of my knowledge of any & all things Biblical!


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