# The article says it all......



## bullethead (Dec 28, 2011)

An article on Yahoo today:
BETHLEHEM, West Bank (AP) — The annual cleaning of one of Christianity's holiest churches deteriorated into a brawl between rival clergy Wednesday, as dozens of monks feuding over sacred space at the Church of the Nativity battled each other with brooms until police intervened.

The ancient church, built over the traditional site of Jesus' birth in Bethlehem, is shared by three Christian denominations — Roman Catholics, Armenians and Greek Orthodox. Wednesday's fight erupted between Greek and Armenian clergy, with both sides accusing each other of encroaching on parts of the church to which they lay claim.

The monks were tidying up the church ahead of Orthodox Christmas celebrations in early January, following celebrations by Western Christians on Dec. 25. The fight erupted between monks along the border of their respective areas. Some shouted and hurled brooms.

Palestinian security forces rushed in to break up the melee, and no serious injuries were reported. A Palestinian police spokesman would not immediately comment.

A fragile status quo governs relations among the denominations at the ancient church, and to repair or clean a part of the structure is to own it, according to accepted practice. That means that letting other sects clean part of the church could allow one to gain ground at another's expense. Similar fights have taken place during the same late-December cleaning effort in the past.

Tensions between rival clergy at the church have been a fact of life there for centuries and have often been caught up in international politics.

In the 1800s, friction between the denominations at the church — each backed by foreign powers — became so fraught that Russian Czar Nicholas I deployed troops along the Danube to threaten a Turkish sultan who had been favoring the Catholics over the Orthodox.

Those disagreements threaten the integrity of the church itself, which was originally built 1,500 years ago and parts of which have fallen into disrepair. Although the roof has needed urgent work for decades, and leaking rainwater has ruined much of the priceless artwork inside, a renovation has been delayed all these years by disagreements among the denominations over who would pay.

Only recently, the Palestinian Authority brokered an agreement to move ahead with replacing the roof, and officials hope work will begin in 2012.


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## stringmusic (Dec 28, 2011)

So many atheists refuse Christ not because of Christ, but because of some of the actions of His followers. I wish we did a better job.

Still, it's the atheists problem of looking in the wrong direction and laughing.


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## ambush80 (Dec 28, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> So many atheists refuse Christ not because of Christ, but because of some of the actions of His followers. I wish we did a better job.
> 
> Still, it's the atheists problem of looking in the wrong direction and laughing.



Can't help but laugh


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## Four (Dec 28, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> So many atheists refuse Christ not because of Christ, but because of some of the actions of His followers. I wish we did a better job.
> 
> Still, it's the atheists problem of looking in the wrong direction and laughing.



I 'refuse' christ because its just a silly bronze age myth, like every other myths throughout history.

I do however enjoy a laugh when the believers act like fools.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Dec 28, 2011)

Hey ambush, Im here. 

Silly myth? Ok. Sad but ok


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2011)

Peace and Love!


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> So many atheists refuse Christ not because of Christ, but because of some of the actions of His followers. I wish we did a better job.
> 
> Still, it's the atheists problem of looking in the wrong direction and laughing.



Followers....these guys are his representatives!


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## JB0704 (Dec 28, 2011)

Off topic, I know, but it seems as if any thread with "elect" in the topic is going to get yanked.

To the OP, people do stupid things.  Christians, Muslims, Amish, and atheists.  Its a condition common to being a human.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Off topic, I know, but it seems as if any thread with "elect" in the topic is going to get yanked.
> 
> To the OP, people do stupid things.  Christians, Muslims, Amish, and atheists.  Its a condition common to being a human.



JB..."people do stupid things.  Christians, Muslims, Amish, and atheists.  Its a condition common to being a human."

I could not agree more and one of the main reasons why I find their religious writings and motives so suspect.


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## ambush80 (Dec 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Off topic, I know, but it seems as if any thread with "elect" in the topic is going to get yanked.
> 
> To the OP, people do stupid things.  Christians, Muslims, Amish, and atheists.  Its a condition common to being a human.



It seems to be a touchy subject.  You would think that a bunch of atheists could discuss the topic dispassionately and rationally.



bullethead said:


> JB..."people do stupid things.  Christians, Muslims, Amish, and atheists.  Its a condition common to being a human."
> 
> I could not agree more and one of the main reasons why I find their religious writings and motives so suspect.



And when an atheist tells me that they hear voices pricking their heart or they believe in talking donkeys I view them with even greater suspicion; as if I hold them to a higher standard or something.


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## ambush80 (Dec 28, 2011)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Hey ambush, Im here.
> 
> Silly myth? Ok. Sad but ok



Collins,

Do you think that an African bushman talking to forest spirits is odd?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 28, 2011)

bullethead said:


> JB..."people do stupid things.  Christians, Muslims, Amish, and atheists.  Its a condition common to being a human."
> 
> I could not agree more and one of the main reasons why I find their religious writings and motives so suspect.



We are not Jesus, we are not God, we are just human. I didn't change into a different person when I hooked up with Jesus. I expelled most of the self destruction things about myself....but I still 'sin' I miss the mark. Like archery, I miss my mark daily, because I'm not perfect, yet. Just forgiven for the err of my ways. 

I may appear to be suspicious to you, probably because I can be, have been, and will be, yet I am covered under a blanket, an umbrella, a sacrifice of atonement for that which matters in the long run.
Everyone is suspect to me, not just Christians....satan is alive and well on mother earth.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 28, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Collins,
> 
> Do you think that an African bushman talking to forest spirits is odd?



I don't at all. We all seek something higher than ourselves, well some of us do. Some of us seek at least something that we can't explain created us, or we evolved from something, we just don't know what. That's the reasoning behind my thoughts on God choosing us to be saved, that it is instilled in everyone, to seek, to understand something beyond their understanding. Some of us have arrived and some of us haven't. I'm good where I am, right now. And I've covered the gambit....maybe I'm just lucky.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> ....satan is alive and well on mother earth.



I wonder why he is allowed to be?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 28, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Off topic, I know, but it seems as if any thread with "elect" in the topic is going to get yanked.
> 
> To the OP, people do stupid things.  Christians, Muslims, Amish, and atheists.  Its a condition common to being a human.



I agree, that should be a given.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 28, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I wonder why he is allowed to be?



Yeah I know....I wonder, too. I'm tired of it....he tried to kill me but failed....he could still kill my flesh but not my spirit....he sends his demons to try to shut me up, but obviously he fails at that, too.....

Danged ol' debbil.


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## ambush80 (Dec 29, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Yeah I know....I wonder, too. I'm tired of it....he tried to kill me but failed....he could still kill my flesh but not my spirit....he sends his demons to try to shut me up, but obviously he fails at that, too.....
> 
> Danged ol' debbil.




There are no demons.  Stop wasting your time looking over your shoulder for haints and start living your life like there's no tomorrow.


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## fish hawk (Dec 29, 2011)

So what,whats the big deal...You ever been to a church league softball game.....surely you can come up with something better than this,you keep posting grade school stuff you read and find on the internet.And I thought you were a free thinker.So this is suppose to prove there's no God


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## fish hawk (Dec 29, 2011)

Ambush you need to find another girlfriend,that one is way to big for you


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## fish hawk (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> JB..."people do stupid things.  Christians, Muslims, Amish, and atheists.  Its a condition common to being a human."
> 
> I could not agree more and one of the main reasons why I find their religious writings and motives so suspect.



So you think Christians suppose to be perfect little robots....Your way confused,not only about Christians but life in general.....this post proves your not as smart as you think you are or want people to believe you are.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Dec 29, 2011)

Ambush, yes I find it odd.

Cant say I dont believe in demons but probably not the Hollywood variety.


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## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

fish hawk said:


> So what,whats the big deal...You ever been to a church league softball game.....surely you can come up with something better than this,you keep posting grade school stuff you read and find on the internet.And I thought you were a free thinker.So this is suppose to prove there's no God



It is clear who is not a free thinker if you think the point was to prove there is no God.


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## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

fish hawk said:


> So you think Christians suppose to be perfect little robots....Your way confused,not only about Christians but life in general.....this post proves your not as smart as you think you are or want people to believe you are.



Again, you are totally missing the point which is Christians ALONG WITH EVERYONE ELSE(lets call it MANKIND) are fallible, errant and say and do funny, stupid, smart, dumb, good, bad, helpful, deceitful things........IE: NOT PERFECT LITTLE ROBOTS, and that is why I don't believe the Bible because it was made by man, nor any other religions guide book was divinely inspired.
As you go back and actually READ the post, you will see I did not single out ONE group specifically, I agreed with JB that we are all equally "human".

You best plug into the smart-o-meter yourself and tweak the comprehension setting.
I think I can add another trait to the list up top, close minded......


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## stringmusic (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Again, you are totally missing the point which is Christians ALONG WITH EVERYONE ELSE(lets call it MANKIND) are fallible, errant and say and do funny, stupid, smart, dumb, good, bad, helpful, deceitful things........*IE: NOT PERFECT LITTLE ROBOTS, and that is why I don't believe the Bible* because it was made by man, nor any other religions guide book was divinely inspired.
> As you go back and actually READ the post, you will see I did not single out ONE group specifically, I agreed with JB that we are all equally "human".
> 
> You best plug into the smart-o-meter yourself and tweak the comprehension setting.



You don't believe in the bible because the people who read it are not perfect?

Do healthy people go to the hospital?


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## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> You don't believe in the bible because the people who read it are not perfect?
> 
> Do healthy people go to the hospital?



Did you guys start the New Year celebration early??????

The People Who Wrote The Bible........are not perfect.........


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## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> You don't believe in the bible because the people who read it are not perfect?
> 
> Do healthy people go to the hospital?



Does anyone go to a hospital where no actual Doctors or nurses are on staff?


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## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> You don't believe in the bible because the people who read it are not perfect?
> 
> Do healthy people go to the hospital?



Does anyone go to a hospital where there are no Doctors but the people treating your are "inspired" by Doctors?


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## stringmusic (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Did you guys start the New Year celebration early??????
> 
> The People Who Wrote The Bible........are not perfect.........



Who said they were? They don't even claim that to be true???

So you don't believe in the bible because something that it's writers don't even claim to be true, is not true???


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## stringmusic (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Does anyone go to a hospital where there are no Doctors but the people treating your are "inspired" by Doctors?



If they had a track record of saving peoples' lives like the bible does, then yes, I would go to that hospital.


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## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Who said they were? They don't even claim that to be true???



String, buddy,pal......

THAT IS MY POINT!


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## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> If they had a track record of saving peoples' lives like the bible does, then yes, I would go to that hospital.



Insert P.T.Barnum quote here" ______________________"


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## stringmusic (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Did you guys start the New Year celebration early??????



I don't "celebrate" new years, it's just another day off work for me!


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## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I don't "celebrate" new years, it's just another day off work for me!



I was hoping there was an excuse....


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## stringmusic (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> String, buddy,pal......
> 
> THAT IS MY POINT!



So let me get this straight. If 2 Peter 3:5 said "And every person that wrote these books are absolutely perfect" you wouldn't find that too a little suspicious?

Why are you putting the bible in a no win situation?


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## WELLS8230 (Dec 29, 2011)

Jesus Loves You!


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## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> So let me get this straight. If 2 Peter 3:5 said "And every person that wrote these books are absolutely perfect" you wouldn't find that too a little suspicious?
> 
> Why are you putting the bible in a no win situation?



Because I do not for one split second believe that a God had any hand in "The Making Of......" at all. It would have been no task at all to just do it himself and have it done in a way that was readable and believable by all. This was not a complete work found intact. This was a conglomeration of bits and pieces of various writings by mostly unknown authors picked out of bits and pieces by other unknown authors and slapped together with the blanks filled in by humans. Hardly divine. Guess what, there were and are writings telling similar and even grander stories by other cultures all over the planet. But you dismiss them for the same reasons I dismiss yours.

Instead of a God we have humans doing all the ground work. The same bunch of nit-wits(my self included) that have been bungling things up for self gain and power since we could stand upright and to be honest....I don't trust them one bit. The writers of the Bible are no different than the writers of every other religious based belief system and I do not find any others to be the work of a God either.

It does not matter to me what Peter wrote. Peter wrote it for himself and for others to follow his beliefs and he possibly was certifiably nuts when he did it. I do not hold the Bible any more credible than the next bit of work claiming to be divinely inspired. I'm not picking on the Bible more than any others, it is just that on here it gets discussed more having more Christians than Muslims,Hindus, etc....in the house.


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## Madman (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> An article on Yahoo today:
> BETHLEHEM, West Bank (AP) — The annual cleaning of one of Christianity's holiest churches deteriorated into a brawl between rival clergy Wednesday, as dozens of monks feuding over sacred space at the Church of the Nativity battled each other with brooms until police intervened. ...................................



What exactly, IN GREAT DETAIL, does this article say?


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## TripleXBullies (Dec 29, 2011)

You're looking too far in to it... It's just another example... I don't think bullet meant this article to be the atheist bible, de-converting believers everywhere...


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## TripleXBullies (Dec 29, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> So let me get this straight. If 2 Peter 3:5 said "And every person that wrote these books are absolutely perfect" you wouldn't find that too a little suspicious?
> 
> Why are you putting the bible in a no win situation?



For the same reason(s) any other religious text gets to that situation with you.


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## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

Madman said:


> What exactly, IN GREAT DETAIL, does this article say?



The article simply shows even representatives, not just believers, of the same God bicker and will fight each other over space at the place they believe their Lord was born! 
From the article:
"A fragile status quo governs relations among the denominations at the ancient church, and to repair or clean a part of the structure is to own it, according to accepted practice. That means that letting other sects clean part of the church could allow one to gain ground at another's expense. Similar fights have taken place during the same late-December cleaning effort in the past."

To heck with representing Jesus, the Son of God, that preached peace and love, we'd rather fight for cleaning space because if you clean it you own it !!!!

These clergy and monks would rather smack each other with brooms than lose 2 inches of floor space and their claim to fame of owning a piece of Jesus' birth place.

It certainly shows there is not much hope for peace within a religion, let alone all religions.


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## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

WELLS8230 said:


> Jesus Loves You!



I love him too. Now gimme a broom so I can go smack someone that thinks they love him more than me!


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## ambush80 (Dec 29, 2011)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Ambush, yes I find it odd.
> 
> Cant say I dont believe in demons but probably not the Hollywood variety.



I find it odd too, but not any odder than the god that you believe in.  Just wanted you to know that so that when you talk about the Bible being the truth, imagine the African bushman telling you that his forest spirits are true.

Welcome to the Devil's think tank.

Stick around.  It's pretty interesting here and no one will call you a Heretic.  

I've never seen evidence of demons.


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## ambush80 (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I love him too. Now gimme a broom so I can go smack someone that thinks they love him more than me!



hee hee


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## mtnwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> There are no demons.  Stop wasting your time looking over your shoulder for haints and start living your life like there's no tomorrow.



It is obvious to me there are demons.
There are demons of alcholism, drug addiction, gambling, child molestation, rapists, thieves. I'm not looking over my shoulder, I have rebuked them in the name of Jesus.

Ever notice that a bank robber is not necessarily a child molester. Could be but usually a bank robber is always a bank robber, a child molester is always a child molester. Those are specific demons.

I never had any desire to do most of those things. Even though I was around a lot of drugs, my drug of choice was alcohol, that was the demon in me. And if I'm ever tempted to drink, it's because the demon knows me. I've never been temped to rob a bank, or hurt a child, or steal anything, it's always been the alcohol. That's the only way a demon can live, is thru us. Once that demon was gone, I was still the same person, just without the alcohol.

All of that is true, but still just an example of how demons operate.

Of course you have to 'see' the supernatural to believe the supernatural, because I believe in the Holy Spirit, then I must then believe in evil spirits, that try to 'tag' us and bring us down.

Obviously these people of the jungle can see that, too...because their mind is not corroded by 'outsiders' and the naysayers.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Dec 29, 2011)

Ambush, i absolutely agree. Im one of the few Christians who doesnt believe that only Christians are going to Heaven.

I do believe in God. I do not understand him. He makes me mad daily. I question him always. He gets plenty of doubt from me. I have told him I hate him and love him in the same sentence.

I am the least holy Christian you will find. If Christ were real and here today, he would hang out here and not so much on the floors above. 

Can I prove his existence. No. Can I prove he doesnt exist? No. I just have a thing in me that says he is real and I feel that and thats all I can go by. I believe the Bible is perfect, right up until a man opens it up and then it goes downhill from there.

I think the big guy has a sense of humor. Ive seen myself in the mirror far to often. Im just different. I do believe in the big "e" word we cant say anymore on here but Im far from the self righteous. 

Maybe i will hang here for awhile


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## Four (Dec 29, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> It is obvious to me there are demons.
> There are demons of alcholism, drug addiction, gambling, child molestation, rapists, thieves. I'm not looking over my shoulder, I have rebuked them in the name of Jesus.
> 
> Ever notice that a bank robber is not necessarily a child molester. Could be but usually a bank robber is always a bank robber, a child molester is always a child molester. Those are specific demons.
> ...



what . . .

No. People are responsible for there actions. Just like when you do something good, it's you not god. When you do something bad, its your fault.

There are no gods and demons controlling all the positive and negative things we do. Were would you even come up with this?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> If they had a track record of saving peoples' lives like the bible does, then yes, I would go to that hospital.



I know that the 'great  physician' is in control of the doctor's hands, by prayer and belief. Jehovah Rapha is our God of healing.
By His stripes, we are healed. 

My daughter's last 2 children were born in  Christian doctor care in St Joseph Hosp, in Asheville.  She said he had her laughing so much by his jokes that she couldn't help but push 'au naturel'. Even though she had to have an emergency c section in the end, the doctor was fully capable of handling that, too. Thank you my sweet Jesus for being the overseer of all.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

Four said:


> what . . .
> 
> No. People are responsible for there actions. Just like when you do something good, it's you not god. When you do something bad, its your fault.*I agree, we have free will, that we can do good or evil. Choose this or that. I've expressed that in other threads. *
> 
> There are no gods and demons controlling all the positive and negative things we do. Were would you even come up with this?*In the supernatural? something beyond some folks comprehension, I suppose.*



Yes you are responsible for what you do, no doubt about that. 
It's hard for me to believe that you've never said in your life, ooopppps the debbil made me do it. But perhaps you are perfect all on your own strength.

Never had a friend influence you to do something out of character? Never wanted to try, test, anything?

If not then I'm not as perfect as you, I guess I'm weaker than you, and that's ok, I can admit that. I'm a girl. I'm not a big strong warrior that can battle anything that I know I can overcome because I'm packin' and it/they ain't.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Ambush, i absolutely agree. Im one of the few Christians who doesnt believe that only Christians are going to Heaven.
> 
> I do believe in God. I do not understand him. He makes me mad daily. I question him always. He gets plenty of doubt from me. I have told him I hate him and love him in the same sentence.
> 
> ...



And I'll be hangin' here wifya, my brother!!
Nice post.

Love,
Annie


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## Four (Dec 29, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Yes you are responsible for what you do, no doubt about that.
> It's hard for me to believe that you've never said in your life, ooopppps the debbil made me do it. But perhaps you are perfect all on your own strength.
> 
> Never had a friend influence you to do something out of character? Never wanted to try, test, anything?
> ...



Eh? Your chromosomes don't have much to do with it. Plenty of things affect your decisions but you have to make them, peer pressure, pressure from family etc. But you've got to pull the metaphorical trigger.

Saying god did it unfairly takes away from your accomplishments. Saying a demon/ devil did it unfairly absolves you of blame.

I'm not saying I've never made a poor decision, far from it. But I've accepted my troubles and triumphs as my own, not passed them on to the supernatural.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

Four said:


> Eh? Your chromosomes don't have much to do with it. Plenty of things affect your decisions but you have to make them, peer pressure, pressure from family etc. But you've got to pull the metaphorical trigger.
> 
> Saying god did it unfairly takes away from your accomplishments. Saying a demon/ devil did it unfairly absolves you of blame.
> 
> I'm not saying I've never made a poor decision, far from it. But I've accepted my troubles and triumphs as my own, not passed them on to the supernatural.



Yes of course, we all make decisions based on our own 'decisions'. I take responsibility for my own.
Nothing absolves me of blame for my actions except for Jesus who took that blame to the cross. 

I spill my guts often of what I have done, and I'm sure you're aware of that. I cannot redeem myself of those things that I have done wrong....and for all of that I accept the responsibility on my own self, my own decisions. I'm not blaming anyone but myself, which lays guilt on my own self...guilt I justly deserve.

If I in fact believe there is a higher power that I have to answer to, other than man, you or any other man, then I have no scapegoat...it is on me....me to save myself from eternal dangnation or me to surrender to the one that took my faults/sins/sicknesses upon Himself to redeem me in this life and the next.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Dec 29, 2011)

Annie, nice to put a name with a screen name.

I think our society, especially Christians like us, far too often label or blame our faults as diseases or in your post, demons. Not putting down your post. Some of that could be true I guess. But listen, im a flaming heterosexual and by my nature would procreate with every woman I could find. Most men are like me. But I make the decision to be faithful to my wife. In todays society we now see men who cheat as suffering from sex addiction. Is that a demon or just poor choices and lack of moral character? Im hopelessly addicted to dip. Do I have a demon? A disease? No. I just like dipping and ive got the money to feed my habit. Could I stop? I guess. Never tried because i actually like it.

Not saying they dont exist but at the same time, we are responsible for ourselves in our daily lives.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Annie, nice to put a name with a screen name.
> 
> I think our society, especially Christians like us, far too often label or blame our faults as diseases or in your post, demons. Not putting down your post. Some of that could be true I guess. But listen, im a flaming heterosexual and by my nature would procreate with every woman I could find. Most men are like me. But I make the decision to be faithful to my wife. In todays society we now see men who cheat as suffering from sex addiction. Is that a demon or just poor choices and lack of moral character? Im hopelessly addicted to dip. Do I have a demon? A disease? No. I just like dipping and ive got the money to feed my habit. Could I stop? I guess. Never tried because i actually like it.
> 
> Not saying they dont exist but at the same time, we are responsible for ourselves in our daily lives.



You are correct. We must accept our responsibility for letting the demons take us over, some of us cannot resist, perhaps I was weak or chosen to be weak as a testimony.

If you've only been addicted to dip then you are far from understanding what I've been addicted to, if you've never been here, or here, or here, then you cannot comprehend what the power of evil can draw you into. 

Like the bible says, it's all for a testimony of Jesus Christ.
If you've never sinned, if you never been tempted and couldn't resist, as Jesus did in the garden, then you'll never know what it's like to be brought out of the deep mire that our Jesus brought us out of. I do have an attitude towards God because He, perhaps, didn't save me from sinking into the mirey clay, but He knew that I would be a willing candidate to profess my sins publicly in hopes that others would see that there is a much easier path to salvation than to only/always walk in the glory of His grace and mercy.

You have to have been where I've been to comprehend what my Jesus did for me, in regards to salvation.

Perhaps some of us were chosen, like Abraham, Moses, Peter, but perhaps some of us need to be brought to our knees in blindness like Paul, to 'get it'.  I believe I'm more like Paul, than like Peter who was chosen by Jesus.

I obviously believe that God can choose who He wills to be His, I also obviously believe that God also can let some of us be brought to our knees before we accept His grace and mercy. I'm thankful that when I was young and innocent that I loved Jesus so that God's mercy and grace is upon me for all my life on earth. 

I am thankful either way. I am saved, by mercy and grace and needed God to get me there.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Dec 29, 2011)

Works for me. I didnt list my skeletons. Dont have the space nor time but I feel I made them all


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## mtnwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Works for me. I didnt list my skeletons. Dont have the space nor time but I feel I made them all



Yes, sometimes we let satan influence us instead of Christ.
Like adam and eve....tempted and fallen, which can effect more people than we even can comprehend.


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## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

Scary to think that the devil and demons cannot be stopped by the ALL-powerful.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Scary to think that the devil and demons cannot be stopped by the ALL-powerful.



But they can!  Didn't you ever see _The Exorcist_?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Scary to think that the devil and demons cannot be stopped by the ALL-powerful.



Well that's where free will comes in. Where do you think all the child killers and child molesters come from? Seriously, I'm not being a.......... I'm just saying. Do they come from what we believe as the norm, kinda like you and me? You don't think a child preditor is any worse than we are???

If it comes from a malfunction in the brain why can't the almighty scientists fix it? They got it all nailed down don't they? They know where we came from, how we got here, but they can't fix us? Why? if they are correct in all they say, can't they fix that? It's a wildcat gene, or a piranha gene?

You don't believe that the mindset of a child preditor/molester is outside the realm of your reality? If not, we're all in trouble.

demons/satan can only be stopped by the power of God, I'd know something about that. But you can't put a restriction on God to do it, you have to let Him do it.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> But they can!  Didn't you ever see _The Exorcist_?



I did.....eeeeeeeeeeeeeeek....and I believe it, too.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> But they can!  Didn't you ever see _The Exorcist_?



Hollywood is the perfect place for devils and gods.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Well that's where free will comes in. Where do you think all the child killers and child molesters come from? Seriously, I'm not being a.......... I'm just saying. Do they come from what we believe as the norm, kinda like you and me? You don't think a child preditor is any worse than we are???
> 
> If it comes from a malfunction in the brain why can't the almighty scientists fix it? They got it all nailed down don't they? They know where we came from, how we got here, but they can't fix us? Why? if they are correct in all they say, can't they fix that? It's a wildcat gene, or a piranha gene?
> 
> ...



God could fix all that with a snap of his fingers. Can't or won't are the only two explanations.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> God could fix all that with a snap of his fingers. Can't or won't are the only two explanations.



Well I agree, believe it or not. He can but won't.....we can fix it and we won't either. We let the child preditors out to live in our hoods....where are our men that can take care of them? They have their weapons locked up and bullets saved for hunting animals, rather than mounting up and defending women and children.

Why do you think God should do it rather than you taking care of it? We have the right to bear arms, thank God that hasn't been taken away from us, but we use it to kill the innocent rather than the guilty. Perhaps we're hunting for the wrong kind of animal.


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Hollywood is the perfect place for devils and gods.



... but both _The Exorcist_ and _The Exorcism of Emily Rose_ were based on true stories.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Well I agree, believe it or not. He can but won't.....we can fix it and we won't either. We let the child preditors out to live in our hoods....where are our men that can take care of them? They have their weapons locked up and bullets saved for hunting animals, rather than mounting up and defending women and children.
> 
> Why do you think God should do it rather than you taking care of it? We have the right to bear arms, thank God that hasn't been taken away from us, but we use it to kill the innocent rather than the guilty. Perhaps we're hunting for the wrong kind of animal.



I look out for my children. I would take care of it before anything happened to them IF I knew everything that was going to happen. If I knew a predator was going to go after my child it would never get that far. I am human. I can only know so much. On the other hand....there is supposed to be an entity that knows all and refuses to protect it's children from predators, devils and demons. I can't find any excuse for that.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> ... but both _The Exorcist_ and _The Exorcism of Emily Rose_ were based on true stories.



Omgosh I have no doubt.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> ... but both _The Exorcist_ and _The Exorcism of Emily Rose_ were based on true stories.



Then they must be true and the ONLY way to get rid of them is with a Catholic Priest. Catholicism must be the one true religion. We should all convert immediately.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I look out for my children. I would take care of it before anything happened to them IF I knew everything that was going to happen. If I knew a predator was going to go after my child it would never get that far. I am human. I can only know so much. On the other hand....there is supposed to be an entity that knows all and refuses to protect it's children from predators, devils and demons. I can't find any excuse for that.



There is no excuse for that, it's simply free will. To act on it or not.

Some folks,mostly unbelievers, say why does God let the children starve in other countries, I say why do you? We always expect someone else to take care of it, while we skippity do da down the path to the tree stand. 

You think 'God' should only protect your children and if not you will? What about other children? why can't you mount up and take care of them, when they only have a mama? If you don't think God can do it, obviously, why do you think you shouldn't?

You have just as much of an excuse as God to protect His own...eh?

When you hear of a child missing do you go look for that child, do you go to new orleans to save the pups and the children? Do you fight off the preditors that could abuse the lost in that place, or do you just defend your own?

Don't wonder why God don't do it, if you yourself are not willing to protect anything else but your own. Every household does not have a daddy or a man with a weapon to protect, surely you are not that deep in yourself, that you couldn't defend that which does not belong to you. Or is it you who doesn't believe in God, thinks He should do it and if He doesn't then it's His fault and not yours....can't be...eh...God's fault...a God that does not exist to you. Still ain't your fault.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Then they must be true and the ONLY way to get rid of them is with a Catholic Priest. Catholicism must be the one true religion. We should all convert immediately.



Come on!  really.

You honestly think that no one experiences anything besides what you do?  I've never experienced shooting bambi at 100 paces with a bow and arrow thru the temple, doesn't mean you haven't.

Surely you don't think that we all experience the same thing.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> There is no excuse for that, it's simply free will. To act on it or not.
> 
> Some folks,mostly unbelievers, say why does God let the children starve in other countries, I say why do you? We always expect someone else to take care of it, while we skippity do da down the path to the tree stand.
> 
> ...



I am not a God, I am not all knowing and all powerful. I don't claim to be. I protect what and who I am able to protect to the best of my ability. You could bet the farm that if I was capable of protecting all AND even better yet ridding the world of "devils and demons" it would BE done.

BUT, don't ask me to kill predators, molesters and the likes.....remember, Thou shalt not kill.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Come on!  really.
> 
> You honestly think that no one experiences anything besides what you do?  I've never experienced shooting bambi at 100 paces with a bow and arrow thru the temple, doesn't mean you haven't.
> 
> Surely you don't think that we all experience the same thing.



Plenty of people have experiences that I do not have. I am basing my solution off of Hollywoods version of those events.

Bambi had it coming.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Did you guys start the New Year celebration early?????






That, was funny!


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 29, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I've never seen evidence of demons.




I know you weren't talking to me, but, Me either.  Not sure what my thoughts are on them.

I will say when I was a kid I read a book (not the Bible) about it that scared the crap out of me.  When I got older, I realized the book was crap, haven't looked into the topic much since them.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 29, 2011)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Ambush, i absolutely agree. Im one of the few Christians who doesnt believe that only Christians are going to Heaven.
> 
> I do believe in God. I do not understand him. He makes me mad daily. I question him always. He gets plenty of doubt from me. I have told him I hate him and love him in the same sentence.
> 
> ...



I absolutely agree that this is where Jesus would hang out.  Not that these atheists are any more "sinners" than I am.  But that Jesus seemed to have contempt for "religious" folks.  Once I figured that part out, it was a lot easier for a guy like me to be a Christian.

Also, if you get good and bored, consider starting a thread in the SD&S on this:



CollinsCraft77 said:


> Im one of the few Christians who doesnt believe that only Christians are going to Heaven.



I agree with you , but likely for different reasons.  That would be a very fun thread.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I look out for my children. I would take care of it before anything happened to them IF I knew everything that was going to happen.



This is where I part ways with traditional thoughts.  I don't think the future is knowable because of free will.  God can't be responsible for allowing things to happen if the choice to do those things is not predestined.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

Omniscient and Omnipotent. How can a God be either without knowing all or not having the power to do anything about that knowledge?


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Then they must be true and the ONLY way to get rid of them is with a Catholic Priest. Catholicism must be the one true religion. We should all convert immediately.



Both subjects in _The Exorcist_ and _Emily Rose_ were Catholic.  Naturally, they called on a Catholic priest.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

Naturally


----------



## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Both subjects in _The Exorcist_ and _Emily Rose_ were Catholic.  Naturally, they called on a Catholic priest.



Not too many Hollywood demon possession movies based off "real" events within the Buddhist faith.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Omniscient and Omnipotent. How can a God be either without knowing all or not having the power to do anything about that knowledge?



Does knowing all mean knowing the unknowable?  Could free-will, logically speaking, be a "wild-card" changing what the future actually is.  I dont think the future currently exists.

If God knows the future, then you are already in heaven or he11 from his perspective.  Your life here is just a small mark in the middle of eternity.  That being the case, the happenings here would seem insignificant from an eternal perspective.

I dont really believe that.  I think you begin at some point.  You have free will to choose good or evil.  I don't think God, if he is perfect, can be complicit in evil.  If he destines it all to happen, then he is complicit, or evil is not really evil.


----------



## CollinsCraft77 (Dec 29, 2011)

Im kind of afraid to say anything anywhere on this place. I got in trouble upstairs.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Does knowing all mean knowing the unknowable?  Could free-will, logically speaking, be a "wild-card" changing what the future actually is.  I dont think the future currently exists.
> 
> If God knows the future, then you are already in heaven or he11 from his perspective.  Your life here is just a small mark in the middle of eternity.  That being the case, the happenings here would seem insignificant from an eternal perspective.
> 
> I dont really believe that.  I think you begin at some point.  You have free will to choose good or evil.  I don't think God, if he is perfect, can be complicit in evil.  If he destines it all to happen, then he is complicit, or evil is not really evil.



Is anything unknowable to the ALL-Knowing? I think I read somewhere once God knows all there is, all there was, and all there will ever be......


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Is anything unknowable to the ALL-Knowing? I think I read somewhere once God knows all there is, all there was, and all there will ever be......



It's just a theory of mine, not rock solid, but working through it.....

Curious, did you read that, or did somebody tell that it said that?


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 29, 2011)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Im kind of afraid to say anything anywhere on this place. I got in trouble upstairs.



eh, just don't giggle at the mods, you'll be fine.  

I kind-of feel guilty for my part in that too


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Not too many Hollywood demon possession movies based off "real" events within the Buddhist faith.



I'm not sure where the Buddhists stand on demon possession.  There are Asian movies based along very similar themes, though.  _The Ring_ and _The Grudge_ were both remakes of Japanese movies.  I don't know if the religion behind them is Buddhism, Shintoism, or something else.


----------



## Thanatos (Dec 29, 2011)

The best tool the devil works with is making man apathetic on the belief of the devil himself.


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 29, 2011)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Im kind of afraid to say anything anywhere on this place. I got in trouble upstairs.



Did you get in trouble or were the moderators just tired of that thread?  It was a _long_ thread, and nobody had said anything new in several hundred posts.


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 29, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> The best tool the devil works with is making man apathetic on the belief of the devil himself.



So said Keyser Soze!


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 29, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> The best tool the devil works with is making man apathetic on the belief of the devil himself.



On this note, and this is an honest question, how does a Christian balance between taking personal responsibility (address the need for forgiveness) while acknowledging the existence of the devil?  "The devil made me do it" is not acceptable repentance.  This has always been a point of curiosity for me.

Not sure what role he plays under grace (post-crucifixion forgiveness).


----------



## CollinsCraft77 (Dec 29, 2011)

Oh no, i got in trouble


----------



## Thanatos (Dec 30, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> So said Keyser Soze!


----------



## Thanatos (Dec 30, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> On this note, and this is an honest question, how does a Christian balance between taking personal responsibility (address the need for forgiveness) while acknowledging the existence of the devil?  "The devil made me do it" is not acceptable repentance.  This has always been a point of curiosity for me.
> 
> Not sure what role he plays under grace (post-crucifixion forgiveness).



I think we need to go get a beer to talk about this one...wondered the same question myself for many years. It is my opinion that God takes our sin (our choice) and weaves it into his tapestry of time to some how to glorify his own name in the end. Humans have such limited foresight that we can not see to what cosmic end human suffering and sin do to our species in the long run. I think about it like a train track. In a given area there is a conductor in a building that knows where every single train is coming and going, yet all we see from our perspective is a single train on one track zooming by us.


----------



## fish hawk (Dec 30, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Scary to think that the devil and demons cannot be stopped by the ALL-powerful.


For a Christian, Satan can only do what we allow him too.
The thing I find odd about you bullet is your from Pa. but your on a Georgia outdoors website.You say you like shooting but this AAA forum is the only place you post.Your true interest seems to be in trying to prove God doesn't exist so in essence,at least in my eyes your just a tool of Satan!!!


----------



## fish hawk (Dec 30, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> The best tool the devil works with is making man apathetic on the belief of the devil himself.



One of Satan's most clever ploys is to make men believe that he doesn't exist.


----------



## Madman (Dec 30, 2011)

bullethead said:


> The article simply shows even representatives, not just believers, of the same God bicker and will fight each other over space at the place they believe their Lord was born!
> From the article:
> "A fragile status quo governs relations among the denominations at the ancient church, and to repair or clean a part of the structure is to own it, according to accepted practice. That means that letting other sects clean part of the church could allow one to gain ground at another's expense. Similar fights have taken place during the same late-December cleaning effort in the past."
> 
> ...



Really,

I have read the article over and over and did not see that.  
If you meant to say it is evident that when left to himself, mankind, even those who claim to be followers of a god, are at times incapable of restraint, I would agree.   

Perhaps it is not so much about religion as it is about culture, you might want to study some of that.  

Ironic how the “non-believers” always have the “holier-than-thou” attitude around here.

One of the confessions a Christian makes is the acknowledgement that he is a sinner, “In thought, word, and deed.”  Of course a non-believer writes his own rules so it is only a sin if he says so.

Finally you almost have it right concerning peace but it has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with men.  We can see that religion need not be involved, the 20th century was the bloodiest time in world history and the VAST majority was carried out by atheists.

When left to himself man can be evil.

The Cross is our only hope.


----------



## Four (Dec 30, 2011)

As long as you guys aren't so crazy that you beat or pour boiling water on your children to get demons / devils out.


----------



## TheBishop (Dec 30, 2011)

I am not a sinner, never have been, never will be.  I will not allow my children to believe such non-sense. It is sick.  I once believed I was according to my church. I always felt dirty, and unworthy of good. No longer.  I am unburdened with that completely stupid idea.


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 30, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I am not a sinner, never have been, never will be.



You've never told a lie?  Impressive!


----------



## TheBishop (Dec 30, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> You've never told a lie?  Impressive!



I do not believe in the concept of sin.  I believe in right and wrong. Now what you may consider a sin, I might also consider wrong.  But my wrongs are not equal, and do not dictate eternal punishment for even the minor infractions.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 30, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I do not believe in the concept of sin.  I believe in right and wrong. Now what you may consider a sin, I might also consider wrong.  But my wrongs are not equal, and do not dictate eternal punishment for even the minor infractions.




Eternal punishment is a ridiculous "Boogie Man" made up by power hungry religious leaders to control people.


----------



## TheBishop (Dec 30, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Eternal punishment is a ridiculous "Boogie Man" made up by power hungry religious leaders to control people.



No doubt. It's astonishing to me that so many can see the evidence for god all around them but cannot see the evidence for this. It is blatantly evident in history and the development of every religious organization.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 30, 2011)

fish hawk said:


> For a Christian, Satan can only do what we allow him too.
> The thing I find odd about you bullet is your from Pa. but your on a Georgia outdoors website.You say you like shooting but this AAA forum is the only place you post.Your true interest seems to be in trying to prove God doesn't exist so in essence,at least in my eyes your just a tool of Satan!!!



fish hawk......I am a member of quite a few outdoor forums. NWTF, huntingpa, greybeard outdoors,shotgunworld, and a few more. You can go on and check just what I do or don't know about shooting, reloading and hunting. If you wanna talk about any of it OR if I can help you in any way sharing what I have learned about guns,hunting and loads, I'd be more than happy to help you out. If you doubt me, look up HAWGLIPS on here...up in the turkey forum and ask him if I am a BSer. He and I are probably not gonna be side by side in a church pew, but we sure have put together some wicked Tungsten loads for turkeys. Look a little closer, I do have posts in other forums. But since I have "been there and done that" on many other outdoor sites, I stick to the AAA forums here.

 I came to the GON forums because of the A/A/A section. I am darn impressed that a site has a section like this because on many other sites, going against the grain is not tolerated. THIS IS my go to site when I want to discuss things of that nature. Let me know how many other posts I have to make in other sections and I'll be glad to oblige.


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 30, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I do not believe in the concept of sin.  I believe in right and wrong.



Semantics.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 30, 2011)

Madman said:


> Really,
> 
> I have read the article over and over and did not see that.
> If you meant to say it is evident that when left to himself, mankind, even those who claim to be followers of a god, are at times incapable of restraint, I would agree.
> ...



Do tell about the bloodiest VAST majority of the 20th century being carried out by atheists. Then again people in glass houses.....


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I am not a God, I am not all knowing and all powerful. I don't claim to be. I protect what and who I am able to protect to the best of my ability. You could bet the farm that if I was capable of protecting all AND even better yet ridding the world of "devils and demons" it would BE done.
> 
> BUT, don't ask me to kill predators, molesters and the likes.....remember, Thou shalt not kill.



But you don't believe in God, so you can take that out of the equasion.

You don't have to kill anyone. Not what I meant. There are other measures, like vote out the sheriff or chief of police, or judges in your own county who let them out. And trust me they do, my granddaughter was attack by a local and they only went to his house and that was the of it. Local yokels.

People that don't believe in God want to know why God doesn't feed the hungry children around the world. If you believe in God then He does, He send us, using missionaries that many many people blast for pushing their religion on others. They do much more, they provide food and clothing and if the people don't want the bible they can chunk it, but still get fed.

All I'm saying is we all should be doing what we expect God to do, especially if you don't even believe in God, then whatever it is you expect Him to do, then you should do it. 
I've heard why don't God do this and that if He is so great, if we believe in Him then He does provide for the hungry, He sends us to do it.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Eternal punishment is a ridiculous "Boogie Man" made up by power hungry religious leaders to control people.



Really? prove it.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> No doubt. It's astonishing to me that so many can see the evidence for god all around them but cannot see the evidence for this. It is blatantly evident in history and the development of every religious organization.



Oh I can see the boogie man around me. satan works all kinds of evil thru people....no he don't go 'up jumped the boogie' and jumps from behind a bush in his red asbestos suit with horns, but still I can see evidence of him.
I can see the sky and the trees and flowers, and all the beauty of the earth, but I can also see, rapists, murderers, child preditors, wife abusers, etc etc. Surely you can see that....you don't think a rapist that jumps from behind a bush and rapes one of your loved ones, is a boogie man?


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2011)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Im kind of afraid to say anything anywhere on this place. I got in trouble upstairs.



Well don't worry about it, that was a long thread. Hopefully someone will glean something good from it. I doubt it was any one person's fault. We all got our points across many times.


----------



## TheBishop (Dec 30, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Oh I can see the boogie man around me. satan works all kinds of evil thru people....no he don't go 'up jumped the boogie' and jumps from behind a bush in his red asbestos suit with horns, but still I can see evidence of him.
> I can see the sky and the trees and flowers, and all the beauty of the earth, but I can also see, rapists, murderers, child preditors, wife abusers, etc etc. Surely you can see that....you don't think a rapist that jumps from behind a bush and rapes one of your loved ones, is a boogie man?



No they are not boogie men.  They are real evil individuals with malice in their hearts and minds.  To assign satan as their cause is a cop-out.  It voids them of responsibility, and is unfair to the victim.  If satan is to blame then you end up punishing the wrong violator. There is no doubt that good and evil exists, but it is manifested in and by the perpetrator not some man made-up figure.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 30, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> But you don't believe in God, so you can take that out of the equasion.
> 
> You don't have to kill anyone. Not what I meant. There are other measures, like vote out the sheriff or chief of police, or judges in your own county who let them out. And trust me they do, my granddaughter was attack by a local and they only went to his house and that was the of it. Local yokels.
> 
> ...



I MAY have said it 3 dozen times on here, maybe more, but I'll say it again. I don't believe in the God of the Bible. There may very well be a supernatural force or a One in a Billion Billions chance of life happening that got the ball rolling eons and eons ago. I am fully convinced though that no organized religion has got it right. But yes you are right. I have an awfully hard time not seeing such a powerful force that is said to be THE Be ALL, Do ALL, See ALL, Know ALL and yet the world which it created is an absolute mess. NO being that COULD change evil to good would NOT change it and allow it's creations to suffer the wrath. Excuses should not be made for an entity that can fix anything. Either It Can't....then it is not worthy of worship or It Won't.... and then it really is not looking out for our best interests. Man Made Hocus Pocus


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Do tell about the bloodiest VAST majority of the 20th century being carried out by atheists. Then again people in glass houses.....



You mean like Hitler?


----------



## bullethead (Dec 30, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> You mean like Hitler?



LOTS and I mean MILLIONS of Christians did exactly what Hitler instructed them to do.
"Gott Mit Uns" (God With Us) was inscribed on many of their uniform pieces. Now WHAT God was that?


----------



## TheBishop (Dec 30, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> You mean like Hitler?



If asked Hitler would have claimed to be a non-denominational christian.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I MAY have said it 3 dozen times on here, maybe more, but I'll say it again. I don't believe in the God of the Bible. There may very well be a supernatural force or a One in a Billion Billions chance of life happening that got the ball rolling eons and eons ago. I am fully convinced though that no organized religion has got it right. But yes you are right. I have an awfully hard time not seeing such a powerful force that is said to be THE Be ALL, Do ALL, See ALL, Know ALL and yet the world which it created is an absolute mess. NO being that COULD change evil to good would NOT change it and allow it's creations to suffer the wrath. Excuses should not be made for an entity that can fix anything. Either It Can't....then it is not worthy of worship or It Won't.... and then it really is not looking out for our best interests. Man Made Hocus Pocus



If in fact there is no God of the bible like you say, then shouldn't we be doing something about what we can do, rather than just protect our own....wouldn't no God mean we should step up to the plate that much more?

All I'm sayin' is many many people who do not believe say well if there was a god wouldn't things be better?  why if they don't believe there is a god don't they do things to make things better instead? they think god should if he exists but if in their mind he doesn't, then shouldn't they be doing more since there is no one else to do it? If everyone would do what they think God should then we'd all be a lot better off.

And I'm  not saying you don't do anything. I'm just sayin', people expect a god they don't believe in to do something they don't do.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> If asked Hitler would have claimed to be a non-denominational christian.




He's a killer but not a liar, eh? It's obvious then and now that he was no christian.

Even scripture says, satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy, much less mislead.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2011)

bullethead said:


> LOTS and I mean MILLIONS of Christians did exactly what Hitler instructed them to do.
> "Gott Mit Uns" (God With Us) was inscribed on many of their uniform pieces. Now WHAT God was that?



Brainwashing. So all the nazi's were really Christians?


----------



## bullethead (Dec 30, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> If in fact there is no God of the bible like you say, then shouldn't we be doing something about what we can do, rather than just protect our own....wouldn't no God mean we should step up to the plate that much more?
> 
> All I'm sayin' is many many people who do not believe say well if there was a god wouldn't things be better?  why if they don't believe there is a god don't they do things to make things better instead? they think god should if he exists but if in their mind he doesn't, then shouldn't they be doing more since there is no one else to do it? If everyone would do what they think God should then we'd all be a lot better off.
> 
> And I'm  not saying you don't do anything. I'm just sayin', people expect a god they don't believe in to do something they don't do.



Nope. I am responsible for the good I do and the bad I do. I am responsible for protecting my own, be it loved ones as family and friends. I sure do help a stranger or acquaintance out from time to time but I can't help everyone constantly. As soon as someone figures out YOU are going to do their responsibilities for them, they quit doing them for themselves.

I don't expect a God to do anything because I don't believe a God has or can do anything. No High Hopes for me. On the other hand when I am constantly TOLD a God can do this and can do that, well all I want to do is see it to believe it. I am told nothing is beyond their God's power, yet they make every excuse as to why that power is never used.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 30, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> If asked Hitler would have claimed to be a non-denominational christian.



That doesn't make it so.  I could claim to be an atheist, but there's no evidence to support that.


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> He's a killer but not a liar, eh? It's obvious then and now that he was no christian.
> 
> Even scripture says, satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy, much less mislead.



I hold Hitler accountable for the atrocities as he ordered them. He did not personally kill every victim with his own hands. You can bet yer kittens that his followers, no matter what religion they were are JUST as responsible for carrying out the acts. If you want to know the religious affiliation of the Nazi's and Troops, look it up. Don't take my word for it.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> No they are not boogie men.*Really, why not?*  They are real evil individuals with malice in their hearts and minds. *Of course. But I still consider them monsters.* To assign satan as their cause is a cop-out.*Really?*  It voids them of responsibility, and is unfair to the victim. *No it doesn't, they are still punished, and they fell to temptation, that IS their fault.* If satan is to blame then you end up punishing the wrong violator.*Huh? no the person fell to tempation of evil, they are responsible. Nobody has said they were not responsible.* There is no doubt that good and evil exists, but it is manifested in and by the perpetrator not some man made-up figure.*Where does it manifest from? Why can some people refrain from evil and some can't? Some of the most popular Christians (preachers especially) fall to temptation even though they believe in God. Doesn't mean they are permanently that way, or they were born that way, it means they fell to the tricks of satan.*



Peace


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> He's a killer but not a liar, eh? It's obvious then and now that he was no christian.
> 
> Even scripture says, satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy, much less mislead.



    "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Although Hitler did not practice religion in a churchly sense, he certainly believed in the Bible's God. Raised as Catholic he went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday past a stone arch which was carved the monastery's coat of arms which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler's most ardent goal was to become a priest. Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.) Many have questioned Hitler's stand on Christianity. Although he fought against certain Catholic priests who opposed him for political reasons, his belief in God and country never left him. Many Christians throughout history have opposed Christian priests for various reasons; this does not necessarily make one against one's own Christian beliefs. Nor did the Vatican's Pope & bishops ever disown him; in fact they blessed him! As evidence to his claimed Christianity, he said:

    "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

    -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> He's a killer but not a liar, eh? It's obvious then and now that he was no christian.
> 
> Even scripture says, satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy, much less mislead.



How do you know the writers of scripture were not liars or even satan himself?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I hold Hitler accountable for the atrocities as he ordered them. He did not personally kill every victim with his own hands. You can bet yer kittens that his followers, no matter what religion they were are JUST as responsible for carrying out the acts. If you want to know the religious affiliation of the Nazi's and Troops, look it up. Don't take my word for it.



Yes they are all accountable. Nothing excuses them. I don't have to take your word for it, I know it already. I'm asking do you believe they were really Christians in their actions, according to what Christians believe? or do you think they were tricked up by hitler who was filled with evil?

We just went over and bombed the crap outta iraq, was that a Christian thing to do? What would happen to the Christians in our troops that refused to go? How do you feel about thousands of innocent Iraqis killed in the war?
Do you think we have evil leaders who proclaim to be Christians?....I do.


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Brainwashing. So all the nazi's were really Christians?




Good and Evil is a fine line only distinguished by which side of the line your standing behind. Each side is looking across at the other side thinking "they" are the evil ones.

There are many many more examples but these should be enough.
Quotes from Nazi Henchmen

Helmut Bruckner

Bruckner served as the Gauletier of Silesia. According to Richard Steigmann-Gall's research, "Bruckner sent Gregor Strasser an internal "Special Circular" he had issued to his Gau [region] officials on the party's official church-political stance. Its contents became common knowledge once a copy came into the hands of the Kirchenrat and the papers Tagliche Rundschau and Christliche Welt. As a confidential document, however, it provides a glimpse into the Nazi's feelings about the institution of the Protestant Church" [Steigmann-Gall]:

We struggle for a union of the small Protestant state churches into a strong Protestant Reich Church.... We are acting not as a party, but as Protestant Christians who only follow a call to faith from God, which we here in our Volk movement. As true members of our church we have a legitimate claim to have appropriate consideration given to the greatness and inner strength of National Socialism in church life and the church administration.

-Helmut Brucker, "Richtlinien fur Kirchenfragen," Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf (10 Nov. 1932: Breslau), [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]

Walter Buch

Buch served as Head of the Nazi Party court and Martin Bormann's father-in-law. Otto Wagener, Hitler's confidant in the Kampfzeit, named Buch as one of the only three men who "were prepared and in a position to tell Hitler their own views when they contradicted his." According to Richard Steigmann's research, Buch, a Lutheran, held his faith in high esteem and "maintained he was guided in his social thought by Martin Luther."

When Point 24 of our program says the party stands for a positive Christianity, here above all is the cornerstone of our thinking. Christ preached struggle as did no other. His life was struggle for his beliefs, for which he went to his death. From everyone he demanded a decision between yes and no.

-Walter Buch "Geist und Kampf" (speech): Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf (probably given between 1930 and 1932), [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]


Public need before private greed.... So important and meaningful is this phrase that Jesus Christ placed it in the center of his religious teaching. However, since Christ was not a politician, since his Reich was not of this world, he put the calling into other words. He taught: love your neighbors as yourself! National Socialism is therefore nothing new, nothing that a person after much consideration would not come upon as the solution to the economic plight of the Germans.

-Walter Buch Der Aufmasch, Blatter der deutschen Jugend 2 (January 1931), [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]

Note, Point 24 refers to a section of the NSDAP party platform (the Nazi Constitution, so to speak) where it proclaims "positive Christianity" as one of its tenants.

Never more than in the last ten years has the truth behind Luther's words been more evident: "The family is the source of everyone's blessings and misforture."

-Walter Buch In a speech from 1932, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]




The idea of eternal life, of which the Jew knows nothing, is just as characteristic of our Germanic forefathers as it was of Christ.

-Walter Buch Der Aufmarsch, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]




When Luther turned his attention to the Jews, after he completed his translation of the Bible, he left behind "on the Jews and their Lies" for posterity.

-Walter Buch [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]



Many people confess their amazement that Hitler preaches ideas which they have always held.... From the Middle Ages we can look to the same example in Martin Luther. What stirred in the soul and spirit of the German people of that time, finally found expression in his person, in his words and deeds.

-Walter Buch "Geist und Kampf" (speech), Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]



Luther's eloquent words,"the intellect is the Devil's Edited To Remove ProfanityEdited To Remove ProfanityEdited To Remove ProfanityEdited To Remove ProfanityEdited To Remove Profanity," confirm my belief that the human spirit of the greatest magnitude is too small to alter the laws of life. And the highest law of life is struggle.... Nothing comes from "yes, but [Zwar-Aber].

-Walter Buch written to a friend in 1929, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]



Rudolf Buttmann



An early member of the Nazi Party, Buttmann became a cacus leader of the Nazi Party in the Bavarian Landtag (whose other members included Schemm and Streicher), and later head of the Cultural Division of the Reich Interior Ministry. [Steigmann-Gall]

One has opportunity enough to see how our party governs in Thuringia, where party members Dr. Frick has reintroduced Christian morning prayer in school.... Not through us is religion in danger, but rather through the conditions we know of in Russia, and which they now boast of in Berlin. First we shall sweep clean the recesses of filth of the city - the cinemas and theaters - with an iron broom.

-Rudolf Buttmann,Volkischer Beobachter, 13 Dec. 1930, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]

Our worldview is not directed against Cathoicism or Protestantism, not against Christianity, but rather based on Christianity and against cultural bolshevism, against the false liberalism of the Enlightenment, and against materialism.

-Rudolf Buttmann,Volkischer Beobachter, 5 Jan. 1931, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]




Dietrich Eckart

Eckart served as one of the early key members of the National-Socialist German Workers Party and an early friend of Hitler. He also invented the term "Drittes Reich" ("Third Reich"). Eckart also coined the phrase, "Jewish materialist spirit within us and without us," used in Point 24 of the Nazi Party platform, an expression that implied a religious element in the Nazi typology. Hitler felt so indebted to Eckart he ended Mein Kampf with a tribute to him.

Christ stands never otherwise than erect, never otherwise than upright... eyes flashing in the midst of the creeping Jewish rabble... and the words fall like lashes of the whip: 'Your father is the devil' (John 8:44)

-Dietrich Eckart Der Bolschewismus von Moses bis Lenin: Zweigesprache zwischen Adolf Hitler und mir (Munich, 1924) [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]



This war was a religious war, finally one sees that clearly. A war between light and darkness, truth and falsehood, Christ and Antichrist.

-Dietrich Eckart Auf gut deutsch (1919) [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]



Wonders never cease; from the deluge is born a new world, while the Pharisees whine about their miserable pennies! The Liberation of humanity from the curse of gold stands before us! But for that our colllapse, but for that our Golhotha!

-Dietrich Eckart Auf gut deutsch (1919) [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]



[The] Jewish conception of God is of no interest to us Germans! We seek God nowhere but in ourselves. For us the soul is divine, of which the Jew, on the other hand, knows nothing. The Kingdom of Heaven is within you (Luke 17:21), thus God also, who belongs to the Kingdom of Heaven. We feel our soul is immortal, eternal from the beginning, and therefore we refuse to be told that we are created from nothingness.

-Dietrich Eckart Auf gut deutsch (1919) [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]



The New Testament broke away from the Old /as you once released yourself from the world/ And as you are freed from your past delustions/ so did Jesus Christ reject his Jewishness.

-Dietrich Eckart Quoted in Rosenberg, Eckart [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]



Hans Frank

Frank acted as lawyer and senior official for the Nazi party and legal advisor for Hitler. He also served a tenure as Governor-General of occupied Poland for which he was convicted during the Nuremberg trials for his role in perpetrating the Jewish holocaust and found guilty of complicity in the murder of millions of Poles and Polish Jews. A former Protestant (his father was a Protestant and his mother a Catholic), he converted to Roman Catholicism after his arrest where he felt relieved at the prospect of atoning for his evil deeds. [The belief that one can be saved for any atrocious act demonstrates the moral flaw of Christian doctrine.]


Hitler is lonely, So is God. Hitler is like God.

-Reichminister Hans Frank (FL Schuman, "Hitler and the Nazi Dictatorship," London 1936)



We are under the great obligation of recognizing as a holy work of our Volk's spirit the laws signed by Adolf Hitler's name. Hitler has received his authority from God. Therefore he is champion, sent by God, of German Right in the world.

-Hans Frank, Frankfurt-am-Main, 30 October 1935 (Aurel Kolnai, The War Against the West)



I am thankful for the kind treatment during my captivity and I ask God to accept me with mercy.

-Hans Frank, in his last statement before execution (Hans Frank from Wikipedia online encyclopedia)




Wilhelm Frick



Frick served as the NSDAP caucus leader in the Reichstag and one of only three Nazis in the original Hitler Cabinet. He was responsible for drafting many of the laws that set up the Nazi regime. Hitler appointed him as Reich Interior Minister, making him the most important "state Nazi" immediately after the Seizure of Power (Machtergreifung). Frick, a member of the Protestant Church, had jurisdiction over the affairs of the Protestant Church until the creation of the Reich Church Ministry in 1935. [Steigmann-Gall]

The party stands for positive Christianity. The National Socialist state is absolutely ready to work with the Christian churches, but the solidarity of the churches to the Volk must be a matter of course; that means that the churches must feel bound to the Volk and may never come into opposition to the National Socialist leadership of the state.

-Wilhelm Frick, Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, 2 June 1935, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]

Joseph Goebbels

Goebbles served as Hitler's Propaganda Minister (Propagandaministerium). The pious Catholic parents of Joseph Goebbels raised him and his two brothers in that faith. He spoke of Hitler as "either Christ or St. John." "Hitler, I love you!" he wrote in his diary.

I converse with Christ. I believed I had overcome him, but I have only overcome his idoltrous priests and false servants. Christ is harsh and relentless.

-Joseph Goebbels, Michael: Ein deutsches Schicksl in Tagebuchblattern (Munich, 1929), [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]



I take the Bible, and all evening long I read the simplest and greatest sermon that has ever been given to mankind: The Sermon on the Mount! 'Blessed are they who suffer persecution for the sake of justice, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven'!

-Joseph Goebbels, Michael: Ein deutsches Schicksl in Tagebuchblattern (Munich, 1929), [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]



Christ is the genius of love, as such the most diametrical opposite of Judaism, which is the incarnation of hate. The Jew is a non-race among the races of the earth.... Christ is the first great enemy of the Jews.... that is why Judaism had to get rid of him. For he was shaking the very foundations of its future international power. The Jew is the lie personified. When he crucified Christ, he crucified everlasting truth for the first time in history.

-Joseph Goebbels, Michael: Ein deutsches Schicksl in Tagebuchblattern (Munich, 1929), [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]



The idea of sacrifice first gained visible shape in Christ. Sacrifice is intrinsic to socialism.... The Jew, however, does not understand this at all. His socialism consists of sacrificing others for himself. This is what Marxism is like in practice.... The struggle we are now waging today until victory or the bitter end, is in its deepest sense, a struggle between Christ and Marx. Christ: the principle of love. Marx: the principle of hate.

-Joseph Goebbels, Michael: Ein deutsches Schicksl in Tagebuchblattern (Munich, 1929), [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]



Christ cannot have been a Jew. I do not need to prove this with science or scholarship. It is so!

-Joseph Goebbels, Michael: Ein deutsches Schicksl in Tagebuchblattern (Munich, 1929), [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]



A Jew is for me an object of disgust. I feel like vomiting when I see one. Christ could not possibly have been a Jew. It is not necessary to prove that scientifically-- it is a fact.

-Joseph Goebbels, in his attempt to win the eternal gratitude of Hitler, (Hitler's Elite, Shocking Profiles of the Reich's Most Notorious Henchmen," Berkley Books, 1990)



When today a clique accuses us of having anti-Christian opinions, I believe that the first Christian, Christ himself, would discover more of his teaching in our actions than in this theological hair-splitting.

-Joseph Goebbels, Evangelisches Zentralarchiv in Berlin, 2 March 1934: Hamburg, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]



When we call for the unification of the Protestant Church, we do so because we do not see how, in a time when the whole Reich is unifying itself, twenty-eight Landeskirchen can persist.... In the interpretation of the Gospel one may hold the command of God higher than human commands. In the interpretation of political realities, we consider ourselves to be God's instrument.

-Joseph Goebbels, Hannover Kurier, 29 March 1935, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]



A verbal confession cannot suffice; we require an active confession. Christianity to us is no empty form, but rather a continual action.

-Joseph Goebbels, in a speech from 1935, Volkischer Beobachter, 5 Aug. 1935, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]



We have a feeling that Germany has been transformed into a great house of God, including all classes, professions and creeds, where the Führer as our mediator stood before the throne of the Almighty.

-Joseph Goebbels, in a broadcast, 19 April 1936

Hermann Göring

An early member of the Nazi party and one of its principle leaders, Göring founded the Gestapo and served as the Reichsluftfahrtminister of the Luftwaffe.

We have told the churches that we stand for positive Christianity. Through the zeal of our faith, the strength of our faith, we have once again shown what faith means, we have once again taken the Volk, which believed in nothing, back to faith.

-Hermann Göring in a 1935 speech, Positives Christentum, 3 Nov. 1935, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Yes they are all accountable. Nothing excuses them. I don't have to take your word for it, I know it already. I'm asking do you believe they were really Christians in their actions, according to what Christians believe? or do you think they were tricked up by hitler who was filled with evil?
> 
> We just went over and bombed the crap outta iraq, was that a Christian thing to do? What would happen to the Christians in our troops that refused to go? How do you feel about thousands of innocent Iraqis killed in the war?
> Do you think we have evil leaders who proclaim to be Christians?....I do.



I think mankind has been at war with each other since day one. If we whittle it down to just two people left on the planet, one is gonna go!
Religion and religious affiliation is an excuse. It never gets in the way of anyone's true intentions.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2011)

bullethead said:


> How do you know the writers of scripture were not liars or even satan himself?



Because too much of the prophesy in the OT has come to pass. Do I believe it's possible that mistakes were made in writings, it's possible.  Do I believe satan tempted David (one of God's favs) to kill his rival in love? Yes I do. Was David punished, yes he was. His son raped his daughter and she killed herself.

It said in the OT that the temple would be destroyed and another god would take over the temple mount. That happened. The ruins of the temple are under the mosque. 
That when the desert blooms, look for the Son of Man. Israel was in a draught for four hundred years, now it produces some of the best fruit in world.

It took me more than 30yrs to really believe in the bible. I was a naysayer for many yrs.


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Because too much of the prophesy in the OT has come to pass. Do I believe it's possible that mistakes were made in writings, it's possible.  Do I believe satan tempted David (one of God's favs) to kill his rival in love? Yes I do. Was David punished, yes he was. His son raped his daughter and she killed herself.
> 
> It said in the OT that the temple would be destroyed and another god would take over the temple mount. That happened. The ruins of the temple are under the mosque.
> That when the desert blooms, look for the Son of Man. Israel was in a draught for four hundred years, now it produces some of the best fruit in world.
> ...



Geepers, God can't control satan now, what makes you think satan didn't write the OT and all this is his doing?


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## TheBishop (Dec 30, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Geepers, God can't control satan now, what makes you think satan didn't write the OT and all this is his doing?



Maybe the entire bible is actually satans work and the christians are falling right into his trap?


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## StriperAddict (Dec 30, 2011)

So you want to call evil good

how's that working for ya


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Maybe the entire bible is actually satans work and the christians are falling right into his trap?



I mean going by "their" logic, they can't prove satan didn't write it ? ! 
As nutty and ridiculous as this stuff sounds, we are expected to believe it the other way around.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I think mankind has been at war with each other since day one. If we whittle it down to just two people left on the planet, one is gonna go!
> Religion and religious affiliation is an excuse. It never gets in the way of anyone's true intentions.



No kiddin', y'all brought up one of the bloodiest wars ever....i just responded to it, I didn't start the conversation.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I mean going by "their" logic, they can't prove satan didn't write it ? !
> As nutty and ridiculous as this stuff sounds, we are expected to believe it the other way around.



So I'm nutty and ridiculous now....alrighty then.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Maybe the entire bible is actually satans work and the christians are falling right into his trap?



satan just wishes....maybe it's y'all he's trying to trick, trip and trap up


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> So I'm nutty and ridiculous now....alrighty then.



Now Now Now, NOBODY said YOU were nutty or ridiculous. The stories within religion are.

I am positive when you read the Devil wrote the Bible it sounded absolutely over the top and off the hook, nutty and ridiculous. In a word....UNBELIEVABLE!!!!

That is how I view the stories I hear about and within the Bible.


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> No kiddin', y'all brought up one of the bloodiest wars ever....i just responded to it, I didn't start the conversation.



facts are facts


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> satan just wishes....maybe it's y'all he's trying to trick, trip and trap up



no one can prove it one way or the other


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## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2011)

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Call it foolishness, ridiculous, and nutty, God knew you would.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2011)

bullethead said:


> no one can prove it one way or the other



I don't call y'all ridiculous and nutty if you don't believe.


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> 1 Corinthians 1:18
> For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
> 
> Call it foolishness, ridiculous, and nutty, God knew you would.



Hey can't blame man for trying to cover all the bases.

bullethead 1:1  Religion is like Infomercial products, It needs to sound better than it works or no one will buy it.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 30, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Hey can't blame man for trying to cover all the bases.
> 
> bullethead 1:1  Religion is like Infomercial products, It needs sound better than it works or no one will buy it.



Hey, that scripture should tide me over for a few thousand years...


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Hey, that scripture should tide me over for a few thousand years...



One is all that is needed to start a following.


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## fish hawk (Dec 31, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I came to the GON forums because of the A/A/A section. I am darn impressed that a site has a section like this because on many other sites, going against the grain is not tolerated. THIS IS my go to site when I want to discuss things of that nature. Let me know how many other posts I have to make in other sections and I'll be glad to oblige.



Thats about what I figured.........Bullet if you'd put forth as much effort in trying to find God as you do trying to prove he doesn't exist you'd have found him by now.


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## TheBishop (Dec 31, 2011)

fish hawk said:


> Thats about what I figured.........Bullet if you'd put forth as much effort in trying to find God as you do trying to prove he doesn't exist you'd have found him by now.



I think you misunderstand. I believe bullet, and others are on the right track, and it is you who has given up.  Bullet is not trying to disprove anything but is on a continuous quest for the truth.  Not a truth you can only claim but one that can be validated.  What he and others are trying to do is not disprove god, but show you the illogical nature of the god of the bible.  To me its not a question of if god exists, its defining its nature.


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## bullethead (Dec 31, 2011)

fish hawk said:


> Thats about what I figured.........Bullet if you'd put forth as much effort in trying to find God as you do trying to prove he doesn't exist you'd have found him by now.



Why did ya ask if you had it all figured out? Since your good at reading what I have or have not posted everywhere on this site, I am assuming you must have missed the post(s) where I put that effort out to find him for 20 years and THIS is where it got me. What you missing is that I've been and am trying to prove his existence, just can't!


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## bullethead (Dec 31, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I think you misunderstand. I believe bullet, and others are on the right track, and it is you who has given up.  Bullet is not trying to disprove anything but is on a continuous quest for the truth.  Not a truth you can only claim but one that can be validated.  What he and others are trying to do is not disprove god, but show you the illogical nature of the god of the bible.  To me its not a question of if god exists, its defining its nature.



Well Said Bishop


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## fish hawk (Dec 31, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I think you misunderstand. I believe bullet, and others are on the right track, and it is you who has given up.  Bullet is not trying to disprove anything but is on a continuous quest for the truth.  Not a truth you can only claim but one that can be validated.  What he and others are trying to do is not disprove god, but show you the illogical nature of the god of the bible.  To me its not a question of if god exists, its defining its nature.





bullethead said:


> Why did ya ask if you had it all figured out? Since your good at reading what I have or have not posted everywhere on this site, I am assuming you must have missed the post(s) where I put that effort out to find him for 20 years and THIS is where it got me. What you missing is that I've been and am trying to prove his existence, just can't!



You can find God in your heart!!!If you would just look.


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## fish hawk (Dec 31, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I think you misunderstand. I believe bullet, and others are on the right track, and it is you who has given up.  Bullet is not trying to disprove anything but is on a continuous quest for the truth.  Not a truth you can only claim but one that can be validated.  What he and others are trying to do is not disprove god, but show you the illogical nature of the god of the bible.  To me its not a question of if god exists, its defining its nature.



If I question God's existence then I really don't believe to begin with...Right???I dont have to search for him,I have already found him...You can read about God in the Bible,learn about him,study his word,learn from it ,but a non believer isnt gonna find God in the bible because to a non believer it's just another book.You have to find God within yourself and once you become a Christian,study his word, God then reveals himself more and more to you every single day...How do I know God exist,because he lives within my heart....It's really so simple even a child can understand.


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## vowell462 (Dec 31, 2011)

fish hawk said:


> If I question God's existence then I really don't believe to begin with...Right???I dont have to search for him,I have already found him...You can read about God in the Bible,learn about him,study his word,learn from it ,but a non believer isnt gonna find God in the bible because to a non believer it's just another book.You have to find God within yourself and once you become a Christian,study his word, God then reveals himself more and more to you every single day...How do I know God exist,because he lives within my heart....It's really so simple even a child can understand.



I think everyone will question sometimes whether you are a believer or not. Even the most dedicated christians will question certain things sometimes. If youve read the bible im sure theres some things written in there that made you say " wait a minute". Any human with a free thinking mind would. That is questioning so does that  make you not believe in god? No, you look over all the ridiculousness and stay comfortable with what you were indoctrinated into.

And i am guessing indoctrination because of your explanation of how you know god. Nothing new there. Southern Baptist preachers have been saying almost the exact same thing for years. I mean, almost word for word, and thats a very typical "sell" speach to begin the brainwashing. And boy did the brainwashing takeover....

And one more note, im sure Bullethead, The Bishop, and I know myself have studied, read , and questioned your bible plenty. I think we would all agree there are some good moral stories, but learn the word of god? Its a man made book. Kinda hard to be taken as the word of god.


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## fish hawk (Dec 31, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> And i am guessing indoctrination because of your explanation of how you know god. Nothing new there. Southern Baptist preachers have been saying almost the exact same thing for years. I mean, almost word for word, and thats a very typical "sell" speach to begin the brainwashing. And boy did the brainwashing takeover....



This really made me laugh!!!


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## bullethead (Dec 31, 2011)

fish hawk said:


> You can find God in your heart!!!If you would just look.



Oh you are right! Not a doubt in my mind that I can and have found God in my heart. But I do not know which God it is. I can make a good case for all the different Gods.


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## bullethead (Dec 31, 2011)

fish hawk said:


> If I question God's existence then I really don't believe to begin with...Right???I dont have to search for him,I have already found him...You can read about God in the Bible,learn about him,study his word,learn from it ,but a non believer isnt gonna find God in the bible because to a non believer it's just another book.You have to find God within yourself and once you become a Christian,study his word, God then reveals himself more and more to you every single day...How do I know God exist,because he lives within my heart....It's really so simple even a child can understand.



When I was a child it did make sense. It was when I got older that it started to make less and less sense. See many of us were once believers and now are not. I was a Christian and now I'm not. Some will say "you never really were", but I know in my heart I was. The heart will tell you many things both for and against something.


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## TheBishop (Dec 31, 2011)

fish hawk said:


> If I question God's existence then I really don't believe to begin with...Right???I dont have to search for him,I have already found him...You can read about God in the Bible,learn about him,study his word,learn from it ,but a non believer isnt gonna find God in the bible because to a non believer it's just another book.You have to find God within yourself and once you become a Christian,study his word, God then reveals himself more and more to you every single day...How do I know God exist,because he lives within my heart....It's really so simple even a child can understand.



You really missed my point.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 31, 2011)

bullethead said:


> When I was a child it did make sense. It was when I got older that it started to make less and less sense. See many of us were once believers and now are not. I was a Christian and now I'm not. Some will say "you never really were", but I know in my heart I was. The heart will tell you many things both for and against something.



I know that's true. I felt the same way...and I did for many years. I was His and He snatched me back, so hold onto your 'draws'.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Dec 31, 2011)

Bullet, i know exactly where you and many others are. But if you once were, you are. Some will tell you differently but I dont see it that way.

Simply put, and no disrespect to mtwoman, but we men have yet to figure out women. How are we seriously to try and contemplate God's ways? Im not being funny. Im dead serious. After 17 years of marriage, my wife still confuses me to know end. And I really want to ask God why on something?


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## bullethead (Dec 31, 2011)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Bullet, i know exactly where you and many others are. But if you once were, you are. Some will tell you differently but I dont see it that way.
> 
> Simply put, and no disrespect to mtwoman, but we men have yet to figure out women. How are we seriously to try and contemplate God's ways? Im not being funny. Im dead serious. After 17 years of marriage, my wife still confuses me to know end. And I really want to ask God why on something?



CC77, the more I look into it the clearer it gets for me. How did you narrow it down to the God you worship from all the other God's? How did you figure out THAT was the God?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 31, 2011)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Bullet, i know exactly where you and many others are. But if you once were, you are. Some will tell you differently but I dont see it that way.
> 
> Simply put, and no disrespect to mtwoman, but we men have yet to figure out women. How are we seriously to try and contemplate God's ways? Im not being funny. Im dead serious. After 17 years of marriage, my wife still confuses me to know end. And I really want to ask God why on something?



Well tell her what Paul preached to Timothy, keep your trap shut woman!! Kinda like leftover OT stuff....sit down and be quiet, you are under all men of the church...can't teach or be headship of any another man.

That's ot preachin'.....why do paul and timothy still hold to that specifically? 

And I  am not saying for the wife not to submit to her husband, my daughter does...what he says goes....and guess what he's responsible of that too, when and if he makes the wrong decision. wow it's one him..... I like it like that.

I hope it goes well with you.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 31, 2011)

bullethead said:


> CC77, the more I look into it the clearer it gets for me. How did you narrow it down to the God you worship from all the other God's? How did you figure out THAT was the God?



I'd be interested in knowing other Gods that you give concideration to and why.


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## bullethead (Jan 1, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I'd be interested in knowing other Gods that you give concideration to and why.



Me, none. 

Why, because all the followers of all the different Gods are sure their God is the RIGHT God, and yet they dismiss the other Gods for the same reasons their God doesn't hold up to.. And not one of the Gods, without human involvement, stand out amongst themselves with a message or acts that are actually god-like.


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