# Have you watched The Vow?



## Israel (Nov 23, 2022)

Seasons one and 2? Not unlike many of the programs that have been about Scientology, lays out a rather complete representation of the underpinnings of religion(s).


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## bullethead (Nov 23, 2022)

Is it a Netflix show? I'll have to make it a point to watch it. Thanks.


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## Israel (Nov 23, 2022)

It may be on Netflix, but I caught the second season on HBO...forgot where I'd seen the first.


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## bullethead (Nov 23, 2022)

Israel said:


> It may be on Netflix, but I caught the second season on HBO...forgot where I'd seen the first.


I'll search and see who has it.


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## WaltL1 (Nov 23, 2022)

Ive seen it on the channel menu (HBO I think) but have never tuned in.
Might give it a look.


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## ambush80 (Nov 26, 2022)

If you're talking about this:









						The Vow (TV series) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




It's not about scientology, its about a sex slave cult, NXIVM, that was started by a charismatic leader who is in jail now.  I learned about it because I saw a podcast with a former member Nicki Clyne.  She's very interesting.  I would recommend watching her interview with Scott Adams; that should link you to other interviews with her.  She seems like a sensible, open minded person who has a very sober and mature understanding of self agency.  She doesn't think much of the "documentary".


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## Israel (Nov 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> If you're talking about this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am glad you took it in that direction. (Though I didn't want to add the fact of his conviction and possibly ruin some suspense) And I didn't mean to confuse it with Scientology in anyone's mind but only that there are certain mechanisms and dynamics common to both when one sees them. And if you are familiar, you might agree both make a strong appeal to self improvement, or hold it as promise extended. From there so very much evolves.


And no, (if you have any inclinations to think thus) neither I nor my wife were pearl clutching our way through it as we watched. We held far more in agreement with Marc Agnifilo's legal views (his assessments of Raniere's motives and character notwithstanding) than with all the other matters raised of which many were now in high dudgeon and calling for his head.

But even Agnifilo (who at times almost seems a champion for Raneire's cause and _sincerity [sic]) _comes to a place where he admits that certain behaviors exempt one from legitimate entrance into the debate over self determination and any odiousness others may find to its exercise...even if/or or when terribly outraged. (I don't want to issue spoilers if any find an interest)

But then Agnifilo (Raniere's defense attorney) concedes to a certain indefensible matter by which he (and his defense) were hamstrung.

And if all were to only "boil down to that" act or acts, then there could be a legitimate debate over whether the punishment fits the crime. All other behaviors, and consequent bitter (very bitter) disillusionment(s) that often propel the narrative, aside.

In one way there's the interesting nexus (and slippery slope) of matters found when considering the very recent legal assignment of _additional guilt and consequent additional penalty_ for "hate crimes". 

The one thing once never in need for proof in legal prosecution is now turning upon it, and that is motive. If it could be shown circumstantially it was a help to prosecution, but it has never been required to be proved. But even so, ultimately it was only in support as evidentiary for illegal injury, and not anywhere near the considerations now focused upon it.

One either could be proved to have shot the man, shot at the man, or killed the man...but now the "why" of it (if already concluded to be of malice and not of self defense nor accidental discharge) easily spills over into matters of thought crimes. Soon intent may be argued in excess of injury and that's an interesting place to explore, even if we find it eventually camping, then knocking on our own front door.

Everyone's gonna find out whether they answer the door or go hide in a closet. But acting in cowardice (except in the military) ain't no crime neither...well, unless it is.


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## ambush80 (Dec 1, 2022)

I don't have HBO but I would like to see how the documentary compares to Nicki Clyne's description of events.





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