# Cut on Contact broadheads....



## TurkeyKiller12 (Aug 4, 2012)

Here's my question.... My draw weight is 55lbs and my bow is shooting about 250 fps. For the best broadhead performance should I be looking towards a Cut on contact head like the magnus buzz cut or would I get the same performance out of a standard muzzy 3 blade with the trocar tip? Thanks in advance and for you wahoos out there YES I SEARCHED THIS TOPIC AND DIDN"T FIND A REASONABLE ANSWER SO I DECIDED TO POST THE QUESTION!!!!


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## Pete Gray (Aug 4, 2012)

CanyonHunter said:


> Here's my question.... My draw weight is 55lbs and my bow is shooting about 250 fps. For the best broadhead performance should I be looking towards a Cut on contact head like the magnus buzz cut or would I get the same performance out of a standard muzzy 3 blade with the trocar tip? Thanks in advance and for you wahoos out there YES I SEARCHED THIS TOPIC AND DIDN"T FIND A REASONABLE ANSWER SO I DECIDED TO POST THE QUESTION!!!!



Its not one of the ones you named but I am really impressed with the Ram Cat broadheads.  They perform well in that range from what I have read on here.  SecondSeason uses them and I think I read one of her posts that her bow is around that range, maybe a little more.   I use them and they do exactly what they claim.  I got 2 packs (6 heads) of the new style 100 grain for $35 on eBay...thats about 1/2 price. 

Hope this helps you.


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## turkeyhunter835 (Aug 4, 2012)

I would go with a muzzy or a slick trick


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## turkeyhunter835 (Aug 4, 2012)

Prob a smaller grain to


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## TurkeyKiller12 (Aug 4, 2012)

*ramcats...*

I wanted to shoot ramcats until I looked on the back of the package and seen that made in china label. I like to shoot american made products if at all possible. I've just had to much chinese junk fail on me.


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## TurkeyKiller12 (Aug 4, 2012)

turkeyhunter835 said:


> Prob a smaller grain to



Haven't had a problem with shooting 100 grain tips.


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## APPierce0628 (Aug 4, 2012)

My signature kind of sort of explains it... the 3 blades I have never used on a deer. The phantom Mxs however.. dropped my first deer last year in less than 70 yards.. love em.


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## lungbuster123 (Aug 4, 2012)

turkeyhunter835 said:


> Prob a smaller grain to



For what purpose?



OP I honestly don't think you'll see a difference if you do your part.


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## TurkeyKiller12 (Aug 4, 2012)

lungbuster123 said:


> For what purpose?
> 
> 
> 
> OP I honestly don't think you'll see a difference if you do your part.



Ok. Thanks for your response!


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## countryboy27012 (Aug 4, 2012)

I shot 55 lbs for years and always got passthroughs with muzzys. Its preference, but you should be good either way.


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## satchmo (Aug 4, 2012)

CanyonHunter said:


> I wanted to shoot ramcats until I looked on the back of the package and seen that made in china label. I like to shoot american made products if at all possible. I've just had to much chinese junk fail on me.



If you only use 100% American made heads, you have very,very limited choices.


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## TurkeyKiller12 (Aug 4, 2012)

satchmo said:


> If you only use 100% American made heads, you have very,very limited choices.




So are Muzzy and Magnus not 100% made in the USA?


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## BowArrow (Aug 4, 2012)

I shoot Magnus and they are made in the U.S.


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## satchmo (Aug 4, 2012)

CanyonHunter said:


> So are Muzzy and Magnus not 100% made in the USA?



Yes they are.


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## oldenred (Aug 5, 2012)

Honestly, just pick one you feel comfortable with. MOST will do their job if you do yours. With that being said I am partial to Slick Tricks and Muzzy's.


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## Flaustin1 (Aug 5, 2012)

NAP Hellrazor


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## RichardGrayJr (Aug 5, 2012)

The new Slick Trick Viper Trick looks very effective...


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## turkeyhunter835 (Aug 5, 2012)

lungbuster123 said:


> For what purpose?
> 
> 
> 
> OP I honestly don't think you'll see a difference if you do your part.



Someone please correct me if I'm wrong with his bow being at 55lb would it not fly faster and have better penetration with a lighter head


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## APPierce0628 (Aug 5, 2012)

Correct.. but it would only be a few fps.. plus you might, just might get more ke with a heavier head.


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## turkeyhunter835 (Aug 5, 2012)

APPierce0628 said:


> Correct.. but it would only be a few fps.. plus you might, just might get more ke with a heavier head.



Thanks for that


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## APPierce0628 (Aug 5, 2012)

Any time, brother. Passing along the knowledge learned here. After all, isn't that what this is all about? Learning from eachother?


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## lungbuster123 (Aug 5, 2012)

turkeyhunter835 said:


> Someone please correct me if I'm wrong with his bow being at 55lb would it not fly faster and have better penetration with a lighter head



Be faster yeah I guess by a couple of FPS but better penetration I doubt it. Adding more weight to the front of your arrow increase FOC which increases penetration...taking away weight does the opposite.


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## TurkeyKiller12 (Aug 5, 2012)

lungbuster123 said:


> Be faster yeah I guess by a couple of FPS but better penetration I doubt it. Adding more weight to the front of your arrow increase FOC which increases penetration...taking away weight does the opposite.



I used to shoot 75 gr. heads and the statement above is the whole reason why I jumped up to 100 gr. heads. Better penetration!!!


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## grizznasty93 (Aug 5, 2012)

i shot a mathews switchback that was shooting 238 fps and i shot a 2inch rage with it and the T3's with it. killed deer with both of them but lost one with the rage, bad shot on my part


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## satchmo (Aug 6, 2012)

grizznasty93 said:


> i shot a mathews switchback that was shooting 238 fps and i shot a 2inch rage with it and the T3's with it. killed deer with both of them but lost one with the rage, bad shot on my part



He only wants American heads. Rages are made in the same building in China as Ramcats.


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## satchmo (Aug 6, 2012)

Cut on contact broadheads do not penitrate as well as replacement blade heads. There is no contest to this, and the word on the street is that coc heads are best for light poundage bows. Coc heads build more friction than other type of head(save mechanicals). That being said @55 lbs you can expect to get complete passthroughs wityh any head you'll find anywhere of any design. Just find one that flys for you true and you can't go wrong.


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## TurkeyKiller12 (Aug 6, 2012)

satchmo said:


> Cut on contact broadheads do not penitrate as well as replacement blade heads. There is no contest to this, and the word on the street is that coc heads are best for light poundage bows. Coc heads build more friction than other type of head(save mechanicals). That being said @55 lbs you can expect to get complete passthroughs wityh any head you'll find anywhere of any design. Just find one that flys for you true and you can't go wrong.



So your saying @ 55lbs with me doing my part on shot placement pass through shots should be obtainable with any 100 gr. expandable?


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## Big Doe Down (Aug 6, 2012)

CanyonHunter said:


> So your saying @ 55lbs with me doing my part on shot placement pass through shots should be obtainable with any 100 gr. expandable?



If you do your part, then absolutely.


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## Philbow (Aug 6, 2012)

satchmo said:


> Cut on contact broadheads do not penitrate as well as replacement blade heads. There is no contest to this, and the word on the street is that coc heads are best for light poundage bows. Coc heads build more friction than other type of head(save mechanicals). That being said @55 lbs you can expect to get complete passthroughs wityh any head you'll find anywhere of any design. Just find one that flys for you true and you can't go wrong.



It would be nice if you would post the studies on game animals to demonstrate your statements. IMHO cut on contact penetrate much better on game animals. I know the COC heads work for me.


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## satchmo (Aug 6, 2012)

Philbow said:


> It would be nice if you would post the studies on game animals to demonstrate your statements. IMHO cut on contact penetrate much better on game animals. I know the COC heads work for me.



The test we've done were in balistic gell against the Ramcats.Coc heads just don't do as well in balistic gell even against some mechanicals. I have taken my fair share of deer with coc heads the 80's. The technology in broadhead design is for duribility and penitration. It's came a long way from a knapped rock to now. Plus, it really doesn't take much to bust through a deers chest. It's all relative, use what you want it all works great.


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## yellowhammer73 (Aug 6, 2012)

satchmo said:


> The test we've done were in balistic gell against the Ramcats.Coc heads just don't do as well in balistic gell even against some mechanicals. I have taken my fair share of deer with coc heads the 80's. The techknology in broadhead design is for duribility and penitration. It's came a long way from a knapped rock to now. Plus, it really doesn't take much to bust through a deers chest. It's all relitive, use what you want it all works great.



i can understand what you are saying..... but my question is my wife shoots 243 fps at 42lbs and roughly 32 ke what broadhead should she shoot? i have always been told a 2 blade light weight head would have more penetration than others. whats your opion. thanks


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## Philbow (Aug 7, 2012)

yellowhammer73 said:


> i can understand what you are saying..... but my question is my wife shoots 243 fps at 42lbs and roughly 32 ke what broadhead should she shoot? i have always been told a 2 blade light weight head would have more penetration than others. whats your opion. thanks



I'm old school, if you look at my avatar sometimes I'm really old school. IMHO a cut on contact, relatively heavy for her draw weight, broadhead will penetrate better. In game heavier arrows, COC broadheads, and higher FoC will penetrate better. The problem is that high FoC and heavy arrows decrease speed and increase the trajectory of arrows. It is a trade off on trajectory versus penetration.

I'm sure someone has done a test in some sort of artificial medium that shows any broadhead you care to mention has been the best at penetration. But in my hunting experience and tracking deer others have hit a COC will be best when things do go  exactly as planned. IMHO probably 95% of the time it does not matter which sharp broadhead you use for deer, all will result in a found dead animal. I just think in the other 5% a COC will help recover the animal.

If you really want to explore the "old school" theory of broadhead effectiveness tradgang.com has the Ashby reports.  http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=24


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## satchmo (Aug 7, 2012)

http://broadheadhunter.blogspot.com/p/results-of-penetration-test.html


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## Jake Allen (Aug 7, 2012)

satchmo said:


> http://broadheadhunter.blogspot.com/p/results-of-penetration-test.html



I don't see any really conclusive evidence, or maybe I am over thinking.

Most of the not cut on contact heads, are not cutting for the first 3/4" of the board. If fact , that is about where the cutting starts; 3/4" in the board.
Seems in this test, that is about where the blades open, and the penetration goes maybe a 1/4" or so past.
So, the first 3/4" penetration in the board, is a 3/8" diameter hole. 
Which, with my luck, will be just enough to push a main artery to the side, and not cut it.

With the high powdered compounds most folks shoot, I am sure it matters hardly any. And, I am sure all of these are
fine broadheads, whether made in Timbuktu, or Buddy's backyard.
But with low poundage, (I shoot a 46# Longbow), a cut on contact and a good bit of weight up front, and behind the head is where I place my confidence . 
Plus, that cut on contact head will be very, very sharp.

I will take a Magnus 1, 175 grains, 1 1/2" wide x 2" long, 2 blades of cutting edge x 2" long each, on a 400 grain arrow.
As a bonus, when a deer ducks the arrow and the broadhead
sails over it's back and winds up 12" in the dirt, I can clean
the mud off, file and strop the edges, and put it right back into the quiver, ready for another round.


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## satchmo (Aug 7, 2012)

When I was 13 shooting 42 lbs I got total penitration with a 154 grain bear razor head and with 145 grain three blade bodkins. There is not a question to me if coc heads are right or not. They all work great. Put them through the lungs on anything on this planet and it will kill whatever. The thread starter was wondering what would get better penitration. Coc heads don't get the BEST penitration, but good enough to kill anything. There is too many heads on the market that are not coc heads for a reason. Faster bows need better true spinning broadheads. There is alot of opinions on here as to what does get the best penitration and it isn't coc heads. I am done with this thread myself. I have provided a link, Ramcat has a link on you tube as do many heads. The answer to this guys question is "any head" @ 55 lbs will bust through any whitetail deers chest with no problem.  Shot placement is far more important than any broadhead selection.


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## Jake Allen (Aug 7, 2012)

satchmo said:


> Cut on contact broadheads do not penitrate as well as replacement blade heads. There is no contest to this.



Just addressing this broad brush statement, and not seeing the apples to apples proof in the link you provided.


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## Steevenh (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm new here but I'll chime in with my own experience. I shoot a heavy arrow ( about 550grains at 250fps. )  My experience has been that it doesn't matter what you use when you have a perfect shot , however, I don't alway's get a perfect hit.
 I use a cut on impact , 100gr. broadhead.  I've used muzzy's and believe that the hide and skin really reduce the penetration of these broadheads. (I believe it's the lenghth and size of the tip.) They fly wonderfully but don't penetrate well in my opinion. I know there are plenty of people that will argue with me. That's just my experience with them. That being said, I use muzzy fish arrows. lol Good Luck.


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## Skyjacker (Aug 7, 2012)

CanyonHunter said:


> I wanted to shoot ramcats until I looked on the back of the package and seen that made in china label. I like to shoot american made products if at all possible. I've just had to much chinese junk fail on me.



I thought about buying some when I saw the penetration test shown on here a couple of years ago.  But I can't get over the way they look.  They look cheap and flimsy.


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## ChrisSpikes (Aug 14, 2012)

satchmo said:


> Cut on contact broadheads do not penitrate as well as replacement blade heads. There is no contest to this, and the word on the street is that coc heads are best for light poundage bows.


 
Did you ever think that there might be a reason for this? Common sense should tell you that COC heads work better for light poundage bows for one reason...they penetrate better. 
Ever wonder why 99% of all traditional bowhunters shoot COC heads? It ain't because they're trying to look cool! They're dealing with a limited amount of power to begin with and need to maximize their penetration potential.




satchmo said:


> http://broadheadhunter.blogspot.com/p/results-of-penetration-test.html


 

Seriously?!...masonite?? If you want to really make this test interesting, try shooting a blunt point on a small diameter shaft like an AXIS. I don't know what's on the other end of that box, but they better hope it ain't grandma's heirloom china plate. Would that mean blunts penetrate better? Absolutely...in masonite.



satchmo said:


> There is too many heads on the market that are not coc heads for a reason.


Yes, but the reason is that most bowhunters don't want to spend the time or effort necessary to sharpen their heads. Not to mention the fact that many don't have the skill. Penetration, I can assure you, has nothing to do with the availability of replacement blade heads.

The only exhaustive, conclusive study of broadheads penetration, as it relates to bowhunting, is the one conducted by Dr. Ed Ashby. With nearly 30 years of scientific studies, ON ANIMALS, no other test, especially ones conducted by a broadhead company (bias) come close. The next time you've got a few days, take the time to read through this. You might just learn something.

http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=24


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## GASeminole (Aug 14, 2012)

Out west, many Elk outfitters suggest that whitetail hunters switch to 2 blade COC broadheads and leave whitetail heads at home. The reason is because of the penetration needed to achieve a pass-through on an elk, which is a significantly bigger animal. 

Scroll down to "Broadheads": http://www.eliteoutfitters.com/archery_equipment.htm

http://www.german-kinetics.com/products/19-silverflame-broadheads.html

The OP asks about "performance" , but penetration is only one aspect of performance.

There is also impact, ability to punch through bone, cutting surface, etc.

So really it comes down to, how does the OP define performance?


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## riskyb (Aug 14, 2012)

Razortips are awsome


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## Apex Predator (Aug 14, 2012)

ChrisSpikes said:


> Did you ever think that there might be a reason for this? Common sense should tell you that COC heads work better for light poundage bows for one reason...they penetrate better.
> Ever wonder why 99% of all traditional bowhunters shoot COC heads? It ain't because they're trying to look cool! They're dealing with a limited amount of power to begin with and need to maximize their penetration potential.
> 
> 
> ...



The best response so far on this wayward thread.  The data is out there.  You don't have to rely on bad advice.


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## rta47 (Aug 15, 2012)

> Shot placement is far more important than any broadhead selection


 Absolutely correct !! 
Just shoot what ever head your  most confident with. 
(imo) The key to a great BH is shot placement.


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## Ihunt (Aug 15, 2012)

My wife shoots 41 lbs. with a whopping 24 in draw. She used a Rocket ultiment steel head and shot completley through a big Iowa buck. Her shot placement was super but that head was also. It is small,cuts on contact,and razor sharp. This is just FYI.


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## robert carter (Aug 15, 2012)

I shoot less than 50 pounds on longbows and recurves and have no problem running BIG cut on contact broadheads through both sides of deer. Broadheads over 1.5 wide. The only replaceable blade broadhead I would feel comfortable shooting from my trad bows would be a Muzzy 125 grain 3 blade. But after shooting the big 1.5+ wide heads why would I want to make a smaller hole.RC


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## slghtr2000 (Aug 24, 2012)

I switched to magnus buzz cut last year after seeing the penetration I was getting messing around with them. I bought them for my wife but stole them after they out did every other head in my box. I was die hard ram cat aall the way before


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## sothunfried (Aug 24, 2012)

my wife shoots arazor edge,,42lbs,,and uses muzzy 100grs, they fly straightand have real good penatration.


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## markland (Aug 24, 2012)

Ballistic gelatin is a great material to compare penetration between different arrows, weights, etc. with the same head but is not a good comarison for different broadhead designs as those heads with larger frontal section or tip  designs tend to penetrate better in gelatin due to the material they are pushing away from the shaft and not causing as much friction on the arrow shaft.  With slim, COC type designs, they cut slits in the gelatin that close up on the shaft and reduce penetration thru friction.
This is completely opposite with animals as the flesh/skin etc. is under tension and opens up when cut not to mention the lubrication from the bodily fluids and historically a COC will out penetrate most head styles in actual hunting conditions when shooting game.  However it is a slight difference and with enough the energy most modern equipment is producing, even at lower poundages it is more a matter of whether your arrow is 9" in the ground or 10" after passing thru the animal.
However if you have the energy you might as well use it and shoot something with a trocar tip design to maximize your bone breaking capabilities for when those shots may go astray!
I shoot COC and trocar tipped broadheads off my recurves and with my draw weight and arrow weight I have no problem shooting thru or at least getting an exit hole in just about everything I shoot, big or small!


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## minekaiju (Aug 24, 2012)

epek xc3

http://www.epekhunting.com/


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## boothy (Aug 25, 2012)

If you are looking for a COC head try the NAP hellrazor they are Sharp, tough, accurate, and they zip right through a deer.  

For a replacable blade broadhead it is tough to beat a Shuttle T.  It does everything well.


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## gahunter12 (Aug 25, 2012)

I haven't paid attention to where they are made, but I'm loving the QAD Exodus heads. Very sharp, and best flying head I have test my self.


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