# If a Christian commits suicide do they go to heaven?



## Throwback (Sep 27, 2006)

That is the question, topic. 

Thanks for the input ahead of time. 

T


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## GeauxLSU (Sep 27, 2006)

I'm going to have to say 'no'.  

But reality is, this is an EXTREMELY complicated subject with perhaps situational answers.  

My simplistic view is this.  God gave us life.  He created us in His image with strict commands to not murder and that our bodies are a 'temple'.  Though I can understand suffering and people wanting to end their lives (believe me) I still think it is wrong to take that life into your own hands, even if it's your own, and 'play God' by decided it is no longer worth living.  Human emotions often over ride scripture in MANY things and this is definitely one them. 

Not sure how you ask for forgiveness and repent AFTER having taken your own life.

Now, if you are talking about someone who is insane, then your guess is as good as (and probably better than) mine.


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## jason4445 (Sep 28, 2006)

The only real answer a Christian can give in this and many other such situations is,  "I don't know."  It has always given me pause to see how being a Christian gives so many the arrogance to state they know what God would do in any situation.  For in Isaiah 55:8-9 the Bible says:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
       neither are your ways my ways,"
       declares the LORD.

"As the heavens are higher than the earth,
       so are my ways higher than your ways
       and my thoughts than your thoughts.


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## leroy (Sep 28, 2006)

If you believe once saved always saved (I do) then I would say yes.


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## CAMO84 (Sep 28, 2006)

I thought would be No but the only one who could really  answer it is the man above. Who would we be to judge a person should go to heaven wouldn't that be considered a sinas well and a sin is a sin no matter how bad it is.


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## Randy (Sep 28, 2006)

leroy said:


> If you believe once saved always saved (I do) then I would say yes.



And there in is just one of the problems I see with once saved always saved.  Of course there will be those that say a Christian can not commit suicide.


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## fergicop (Sep 28, 2006)

No one knows for sure but in my opinion you don't. I was brought up to believe that your body is a temple and by destroying it you would not goto Heaven. I attended Christian Schools all my life (Baptist Schools) although I am not Baptist, and one of the schools had a youth minister that commited suicide and the school made us attend the funeral and it was the most uneasy feeling I ever had watching the minister talk about this guys good works and then have to talk about how he died.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 28, 2006)

jason4445 said:


> The only real answer a Christian can give in this and many other such situations is,  "I don't know."  It has always given me pause to see how being a Christian gives so many the arrogance to state they know what God would do in any situation.  For in Isaiah 55:8-9 the Bible says:
> 
> "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
> neither are your ways my ways,"
> ...





  
I don't think your post applies to only Christians though, I think it applies to any and all beliefs (or unbelief ).
Including me.


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## doenightmare (Sep 28, 2006)

I'm gonna have to leave that one up to God. No vote.


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## Jody Hawk (Sep 28, 2006)

My preacher touched on this in one of his sermons a few weeks ago. He says yes they do and I agree. Sin is sin in God's eyes. That's no different than a Christian committing any sin and dieing immediately afterwards. So y'all are saying that if you are a Christian and commit a sin, then you better hope that you don't fall over dead before you have a chance to ask for forgiveness? I don't buy that, God saved me once and I'm covered !!!!!!!! As my preacher puts it, he ain't going to that cross anymore, once was enough !!!!


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## dutchman (Sep 28, 2006)

Randy said:


> And there in is just one of the problems I see with once saved always saved.  Of course there will be those that say a Christian can not commit suicide.



Not here to argue, but there are absolutely no problems with once saved, always saved! To say otherwise is to deny that Jesus (God) has the power to save in the first place. If I can fall from grace, so to speak, then salvation is imperfect. That's the same as saying that Jesus is imperfect. And that just ain't the case.

One of the foundational tenents of my faith is the security of the believer.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 28, 2006)

dutchman said:


> Not here to argue, but there are absolutely no problems with once saved, always saved! To say otherwise is to deny that Jesus (God) has the power to save in the first place. If I can fall from grace, so to speak, then salvation is imperfect. That's the same as saying that Jesus is imperfect. And that just ain't the case.
> 
> One of the foundational tenents of my faith is the security of the believer.



Not here to argue either!!!  
But I think Randy might have been referring to people like me... who were Christians but then stopped believing.  Some say I was never a 'real' Christian, so that's why I could stop believing. I think Randy's saying no 'real' Christian would commit suicide, if they did then they weren't really a Christian.  Not trying to put words in Randy's mouth, just sayin'  how I read his post.


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## dutchman (Sep 28, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Not here to argue either!!!
> But I think Randy might have been referring to people like me... who were Christians but then stopped believing.  Some say I was never a 'real' Christian, so that's why I could stop believing. I think Randy's saying no 'real' Christian would commit suicide, if they did then they weren't really a Christian.  Not trying to put words in Randy's mouth, just sayin'  how I read his post.



OK but I interpreted it differently. I see your point. I stand by my original post.


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## fergicop (Sep 28, 2006)

So, once saved always saved means that since I have been saved that I can now run out and do the things that Christians would not normally do because I have the insurance that I was saved already.


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## dutchman (Sep 28, 2006)

fergicop said:


> So, once saved always saved means that since I have been saved that I can now run out and do the things that Christians would not normally do because I have the insurance that I was saved already.




To do so would not exhibit any of the fruits of the Spirit. Then you'd need to question your own salvation (was it genuine or no?). Salvation is not a license to sin.


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## Jody Hawk (Sep 28, 2006)

fergicop said:


> So, once saved always saved means that since I have been saved that I can now run out and do the things that Christians would not normally do because I have the insurance that I was saved already.



You will still be saved but you will answer for it. Saved and unsaved alike will stand before God one day and answer for things done in the body. 2 Corinthians 5:10 says, For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


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## GeauxLSU (Sep 28, 2006)

fergicop said:


> So, once saved always saved means that since I have been saved that I can now run out and do the things that Christians would not normally do because I have the insurance that I was saved already.


I assure you that is EXACTLY what many believe though they won't state it so bluntly.  They believe quite simply NOTHING can prevent you from going to heaven once you are 'saved'.    Then the semantics start about what it really means to be saved and that if you are continually sinning you aren't really saved.  Really?  Then apparently nobody is ' really saved' since we all sin continously right?  
Scripture is clear to me, you MUST repent of your sins.  You also must not continually sin.  The implication is not that you will get a noogie on your head.  
  Suicide is a repentless sin.  Yes, I would fear dropping dead right after I sinned if I hadn't repented.  What do you know, even MORE motivation to NOT sin (like we should need any more than the knowledge of what our Savior did for us). 
I also struggle with the phrase that says "We can never KNOW what God intends", the dig about arrogance aside.  Then why in the world do we have the written Word?  If it's not there to let us know His intentions then what is it?  Of course we all may interpret it differently but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  It is there for us for this very reason.  
How anyone can deny that sin is wrong, is to be avoided at all cost, jeopardizes your relationship with our Savior, and must be repented, based on everything in Scripture is beyond me but again, I guess we all read it differently.


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## Spinkaleo (Sep 28, 2006)

The only sin that is unpardonable is the rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  There can always come a situation in a person's life that would drive them to the brink.  One example is the loss of my father.  There was a time in the months following his death that the thoughts of suicide went through my mind.  I have no doubt in my heart that I am a born again child of the living God.  Had I carried through with the suicide thoughts then I would have had to face God's disappointment in taking my own life before he wanted me home face to face in Heaven.  Once saved always saved no matter what stupidity we pull off after our conversion.


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## fergicop (Sep 28, 2006)

GeauxLSU, my thoughts exactly.


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## FESTUSHAGGIN (Sep 28, 2006)

my bible tells me the ONLY unforgiveable sin is blasphemy which is the unbelief in the lord God.  if a person has been saved and they for some stupid reason commit suicide then yes they will go to heaven.


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## GeauxLSU (Sep 28, 2006)

Can we all agree there is a difference between "unforgiveable" and "unforgiven"? 
Can we also agree you MUST repent of your sins to be forgiven?  If not, perhaps that is where the difference lies.


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## Double Barrel BB (Sep 28, 2006)

If Saved, Always Saved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DB BB


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## Just 1 More (Sep 28, 2006)

There si no proof that anyone has gone anywhere after death,, Just in the ground.. 
So it is all in whatever you believe


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## Cward (Sep 28, 2006)

My belief is no. 
I do not believe in once saved, always saved.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 28, 2006)

Depends. If you hurt others with your suicide, it is bad karma. You are going to have to come back and try again, or perhaps come back as a junebug.

However, if you are an old **** with no dependants, sick and suffering because your body or mind is like a six yr old Ford, just old and falling apart and giving misery, with no chance of pimping the rotten frame and your running un-natureally on crank case additives then a cheque from the junk man or an extra prescription of pain killer might be OK.

Quality is a natural lifespan which includes stress, suicide as comfort from terminal illness or at the end of life, when there is no more quality, is ok...

Suicides form mental or emotional illness are not sins, but the sad outcomes of these ills. This is similar to alchoholics dying of liver failure...it is not suicide.

Suicides due to rage, anger and vengence are well bad karma...


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## Foxfire (Sep 28, 2006)

No.  You people that say "once saved always saved" do not know what you are talking about.

Foxfire/Y2KZ71


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## Branchminnow (Sep 28, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:


> Not sure how you ask for forgiveness and repent AFTER having taken your own life.



you pay for your sin while living here, besides, God is God and only he will decide if , how , and when you leave here.


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## Just 1 More (Sep 28, 2006)

Branchminnow said:


> you pay for your sin while living here, besides, God is God and only he will decide if , how , and when you leave here.



So then you really didn't commit suicide.. God killed you?


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## Branchminnow (Sep 28, 2006)

Jody Hawk said:


> M  I don't buy that, God saved me once and I'm covered !!!!!!!! As my preacher puts it, he ain't going to that cross anymore, once was enough !!!!



He never has to do ANYTHING twice its right the first time.


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## Branchminnow (Sep 28, 2006)

Just 1 More said:


> So then you really didn't commit suicide.. God killed you?



He allowed it to happen, yes he killed you.


ANYBODY who takes there own life MUST get the courage to do so, I have talked to at least 3 people who were going to doit, but I have found that the ones that dont talk about it, those are the ones that actually follow through.

My point is we pay for our sins while in the body, that being true then we DO NOT know what people go through BEFORE they die.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 28, 2006)

Branchminnow said:


> My point is we pay for our sins while in the body



I thought Jesus paid for your sins...  

Let's face it... after death, no one knows.  Everything anyone believes about religious doctrine or what happens when you die believes so because of something someone wrote in a book.  And sometimes they believe purely based on what their interpretation is on what was written in a book.  Which could be completely different than what the author intended.

I was thinking about that a while ago, when I posted about my dad,  and sometimes while I'm working, watching the base oils and the caustic chemical mix in my pot to form neutral soap (which to me is a miracle in itself), my thoughts drift back to it.   How does anyone REALLY know what happens when you die?  You don't.

The Jews believe that after one dies, the deceased mourns the loss of their body for a certain period of time before moving on... and that everyone goes through a 'purification' process before joining with God's presence (much like Catholic purgatory), and the period of time this 'purification' can last is up to 11 months. How do they know?  Where did this information come from?  The teachings of Rabbi.  But how do the Rabbi know? Did they die and experience this, and come back to be able to tell everyone else about it?  No.  You have to take someone's word for it.  Another example... the book of Revelation... all these things John saw as visions.  How does anyone really know they came from God? Who's to say John didn't eat some bad berries or something and have hallucinations?  Or Daniel?  Or Ezekiel?

This isn't meant to insult anyone or cause a debate.... just an observation that the truth is, no one knows anything 100% positive except that we live and then we die.  Anything after that is pure speculation.  One can have all the faith they want in what they believe, but it's just that... their faith in what they believe.  Nothing is based on fact, because no one has had the experience to die, be buried and come back to life.  And I'm not talking about Jesus or the believed resurrection, either... I'm talking about in recorded history that is verifyably documented with medical proof.  It just hasn't happened.

Another reason why it's best to leave these things up to God.

A good friend of mine committed suicide almost 2 years ago.  He had been laid off work and the bills were piling up, and he had a wife and 4 kids he was responsible for.  Feeling that it would be better (financially) for his family, he started the car in the garage with a pipe running from the exhaust in through one of the car windows.  His wife and mother-in-law found him that evening.

Financially, his wife and kids are set... but I know for a fact that they would trade every cent to have him back with them.

I have to admit, I don't wonder where his soul is now. It is my belief that the pain he must have been feeling to take such drastic measures was punishment enough.  No, that doesn't come from a book or a religion or a teacher, it's just my own gut feeling.  And I could be wrong. But from everything I see in nature, I don't see God punishing someone eternally because they were in such despair that they had a moment of weakness and gave up.  But again, yes, I could be wrong.

And if I am wrong, does it really matter anyway? I mean, let's face it, if someone is feeling so despondent that they are willing and ready to take their life, do you really think that the threat of he*l is going to deter them?  Most people in that frame  of mind already feel like they are in he*l.

I wish I could say that is the only friend I have ever had that has committed suicide, but it isn't.  I just cannot imagine the pain someone would have to be going through, to be in such despair and hopelessness, that they would take their own life.  And I hope I never do know what that pain is like.


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## dutchman (Sep 29, 2006)

Foxfire said:


> No.  You people that say "once saved always saved" do not know what you are talking about.
> 
> Foxfire/Y2KZ71




Would you care to elaborate? I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anyone else. I am just curious as to the reasoning behind this statement.


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## leroy (Sep 29, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I
> A good friend of mine committed suicide almost 2 years ago.  He had been laid off work and the bills were piling up, and he had a wife and 4 kids he was responsible for.  Feeling that it would be better (financially) for his family, he started the car in the garage with a pipe running from the exhaust in through one of the car windows.  His wife and mother-in-law found him that evening.
> 
> Financially, his wife and kids are set... but I know for a fact that they would trade every cent to have him back with them.
> ...




  I thought most life insurance policies would not pay out in the case of suicide?


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## Branchminnow (Sep 29, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I thought Jesus paid for your sins...


He was the ultimate sacrifice, but after we are saved then we pay for our own, he did not die for us to be saved more than once.


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## SBG (Sep 29, 2006)

I do believe it is possible for a truly born again Christian to take his own life because of despondency or because of an ailment which affects the mind or for some other reason. There is at least one example of this in the Bible, and that is the case of Samson. Hebrews 11:32 leaves no doubt that he was a true believer.


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## GeauxLSU (Sep 29, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:


> Can we all agree there is a difference between "unforgiveable" and "unforgiven"?
> Can we also agree you MUST repent of your sins to be forgiven?  If not, perhaps that is where the difference lies.


Any comment?


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## GeauxLSU (Sep 29, 2006)

I've never considered Samson as having committed suicide.   He died as a warrior in a fight under the command of God. 
Also, when did Sampson live (what calendar years?). 

Secondly 
1Corinithians 6:19-20 says what? 
KJV
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Or for the NIVers 
19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.  

Hopefully we ALL agree it's a sin.  The still unanswered question is what about unrepentant sins?


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## SBG (Sep 29, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:


> Can we also agree you MUST repent of your sins to be forgiven?



"We" cannot repent of our sins, in and of ourselves. It is God that give us repentance.

Ac 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. 

2Ti 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


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## GeauxLSU (Sep 29, 2006)

SBG said:


> "We" cannot repent of our sins, in and of ourselves. It is God that give us repentance.


You know what I mean!    Do you or do you not agree that we must ask for forgiveness for our sins?


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## SBG (Sep 29, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:


> I've never considered Samson as having committed suicide.   He died as a warrior in a fight under the command of God.



I think that the majority of believers understand that Samson's act was a life shortening event. He prayed for God to restore his strength so he could avenge what the Phillistines had did to him. 



GeauxLSU said:


> Also, when did Sampson live (what calendar years?).



I don't know...but why is it relevant?


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## SBG (Sep 29, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:


> You know what I mean!    Do you or do you not agree that we must ask for forgiveness for our sins?



After or before salvation?


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 29, 2006)

leroy said:


> I thought most life insurance policies would not pay out in the case of suicide?



He was an electrician, in a union (they live in Indiana), so she gets a monthly benefit from the union. She also has 4 young children, and receives around $500 per month for each child from Social Security.   But she did also get a settlement from his life insurance policy.  I didn't ask about the details of it, so I'm not sure how that worked.


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## GeauxLSU (Sep 29, 2006)

SBG said:


> I think that the majority of believers understand that Samson's act was a life shortening event. He prayed for God to restore his strength so he could avenge what the Phillistines had did to him.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know...but why is it relevant?


I don't know what the majority of believers believe but this one believes he was acting against the Philistines (as he always had) in accordance with God's direct commands. 

It's relevant because the question was about Christians.  Sampson lived 1,000 years before Christ correct?  



			
				SBG said:
			
		

> After or before salvation?


The question is obviously concerning after.  We are talking about Christians and suicide. You are in a mood today aren't you?


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## dutchman (Sep 29, 2006)

Romans 8 makes mention of two intercessors that Christian people have working for them.

One is the Holy Spirit. The other is the Lord Jesus Christ. They are able to make intercession for us when we don't even know how to pray or what to pray for. Could it be that one or both of these would make intercession for the Christian who dies by his or her own hand? I believe that both are certainly able to do so. Do they or do they not? That I can't say.


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## SBG (Sep 29, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:


> I don't know what the majority of believers believe but this one believes he was acting against the Philistines (as he always had) in accordance with God's direct commands.
> 
> It's relevant because the question was about Christians.  Sampson lived 1,000 years before Christ correct?
> 
> The question is obviously concerning after.  We are talking about Christians and suicide. You are in a mood today aren't you?



No...I ain't in no mood...sorry if I came across that way.

Samson is a Christian. It really doesn't matter when Samson died, he is only saved now because of the finished work of Christ. Pre calvary believers and post calvary believers were and are redeemed the same way.

Let me present a hypothetical situation:

Soldiers are in a foxhole. One of the soldiers is a genuine, bought by the blood, born again believer. The enemy throws a hand grenade in the foxhole and the Christian falls on it knowing it will mean the end of his life. He does this to save his friends.

He has commited suicide. 

Does he go to heaven?


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## SBG (Sep 29, 2006)

dutchman said:


> Romans 8 makes mention of two intercessors that Christian people have working for them.
> 
> One is the Holy Spirit. The other is the Lord Jesus Christ. They are able to make intercession for us when we don't even know how to pray or what to pray for. Could it be that one or both of these would make intercession for the Christian who dies by his or her own hand? I believe that both are certainly able to do so. Do they or do they not? That I can't say.



Excellent point...I wish I had thought of that!


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## GeauxLSU (Sep 29, 2006)

SBG said:


> He has commited suicide.
> 
> Does he go to heaven?


I guess we just define suicide different.  That soldier did not commit suicide.  He died fighting and trying to protect the innocent.  He was MURDERED.  Yes he goes to heaven.


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## PWalls (Sep 29, 2006)

I see the point about Samson, but then again I don't. He prayed to God for the return of his strength. He was fully committed to ending his life (because of his shame and ridicule - remember, they blinded him) and he asked God to help him do it. God gave him his strength back which allowed him to kill himself (and take a bunch of Philistines with him). So, in essence, if you believe that Samson committed suicide, then you also have to believe that God condoned it since He knew that was what Samson wanted and He gave him the tools to do it (without God's aid, Samson would have been a blind mind struggling to push over two big stone pillars without any success).

On the original topic, I voted that if your are Saved, then suicide will not keep you from Heaven. Yes, it would be a sin that you have not repented from (don't know how you repent from Suicide?), but the same thing would happen if someone cut you off in traffic, you said a wirty-dord, and then had a fatal car accident. You just sinned and did not have a chance at repentence.

Also, I don't believe that you have to ask for forgiveness. I believe that it is yours upon confession and repentence. Look at 1John 1:9. Asking for forgiveness is asking for something the Lord has already promised. We should ask for conviction by the Holy Spirit and the strength to repent of that sin. Of course, don't get me wrong, I also ask for forgiveness (it's hard not to). But, we should expect forgiveness (as He promised) when we do the other things.


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## Jody Hawk (Sep 29, 2006)

PWalls said:


> On the original topic, I voted that if your are Saved, then suicide will not keep you from Heaven. Yes, it would be a sin that you have not repented from (don't know how you repent from Suicide?), but the same thing would happen if someone cut you off in traffic, you said a wirty-dord, and then had a fatal car accident. You just sinned and did not have a chance at repentence.
> 
> Also, I don't believe that you have to ask for forgiveness. I believe that it is yours upon confession and repentence. Look at 1John 1:9. Asking for forgiveness is asking for something the Lord has already promised. We should ask for conviction by the Holy Spirit and the strength to repent of that sin. Of course, don't get me wrong, I also ask for forgiveness (it's hard not to). But, we should expect forgiveness (as He promised) when we do the other things.




Well said !!!! My thoughts exactly !!!!


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 29, 2006)

SBG said:


> Samson is a Christian. It really doesn't matter when Samson died, he is only saved now because of the finished work of Christ. Pre calvary believers and post calvary believers were and are redeemed the same way.



 

I thought the whole basis for redemption through Jesus was if you 'accepted' it or believed in it... or not.  If Samson was dead 1000 years before Jesus, how is it that he either accepted or rejected it?


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## PWalls (Sep 29, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I thought the whole basis for redemption through Jesus was if you 'accepted' it or believed in it... or not.  If Samson was dead 1000 years before Jesus, how is it that he either accepted or rejected it?



 Are you stirring or genuinely asking? I find it hard to believe that you were a "Christian" for as long as you claim and did not get exposed to this most fundamental of beliefs. If you are stirring, then please desist. If you are genuinely asking, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Probably should start a thread for this anyway.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 29, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:


> I guess we just define suicide different.  That soldier did not commit suicide.  He died fighting and trying to protect the innocent.  He was MURDERED.  Yes he goes to heaven.



But he did commit suicide.  He had a choice of whether or not to throw himself on the grenade, and he chose to do it, knowing it would kill him.  If he had not, he would have (probably) lived.

Of course, this is also where many non-Christians claim that Jesus also committed suicide... because he said that he could have his legions of angels come and rescue him at any time prior to or during his crucifixion and chose not to... which (to them) means he committed suicide.  Before anyone gets upset,  I am NOT saying that is MY belief, I'm just stating yet another difference in opinion in an example between suicide and murder.

I guess the question is, if someone CHOOSES to take their own life, does God give thought to what their motive is?  And again, we cannot answer that.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 29, 2006)

PWalls said:


> Are you stirring or genuinely asking? I find it hard to believe that you were a "Christian" for as long as you claim and did not get exposed to this most fundamental of beliefs. If you are stirring, then please desist. If you are genuinely asking, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.
> 
> Probably should start a thread for this anyway.




I am genuinely asking.

Although I guess I should know better than to do that, because even when I'm genuinely asking, I am accused of stirring, so it doesn't really matter anyway. 

On second thought... forget I asked.


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## GeauxLSU (Sep 29, 2006)

PWalls said:


> Also, I don't believe that you have to ask for forgiveness. I believe that it is yours upon confession and repentence. Look at 1John 1:9. Asking for forgiveness is asking for something the Lord has already promised.


It is amazing how we can get different things from the same words isn't it?


> 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.


That verse is clear to me.  It says what it says.  IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS..... 
Again, Sampson was a solider just the hypothetical grenade soldier.  He died doing what soldiers do.  If Sampson wanted to kill himself, he simply could have broke free of the pillars and killed himself any number of ways.  He specifically brougth down the pillars because he wanted to kill the Philistines PER GOD'S COMMANDS and yes he was willing to sacrfice his life to do so.  Sacrificing one's life and comitting suicide are NOT the same, especially for a soldier.   In that regard, suicide bombers could just shoot themselves if suicide was the goal.  The goal for a soldier in a war is to kill the enemy and protect your own.  
Hopefully we haven't strayed too far.


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## PWalls (Sep 29, 2006)

Phil,

1John 1:9 does not tell the Christian to ask for forgiveness. It tells us that the Lord is faithful and just to forgive us (because He says He will) when we confess our sin. The key action by the Christian is not asking for forgiveness, the key action is confessing the sin (which by the way also involves repentence). Just going to the Lord and saying "Lord, forgive me because I sinned" or "Lord forgive me of my sins" is not near enough. You have to confess each and every specific sin and make a commitment to repentence of those specific sins. Then, the Lord will fulfill His promise and forgive you.

Probably just hair-splitting.


On the Samson thing. You believe that sacrifice is different from suicide. Doesn't the "body is a temple" verse apply to both circumstances. Was Samson trying to committ suicide or was he trying to sacrifice himself? How do we know? Even if the only difference between the two is motive, is that a difference in God's eyes? In either case, one of His adopted Children is dead. On that topic, I also believe there is a difference between suicide and sacrifice, but I think that lwe make that line a little more grey (like some sins worse than others) that God does.


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## PWalls (Sep 29, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I am genuinely asking.
> 
> Although I guess I should know better than to do that, because even when I'm genuinely asking, I am accused of stirring, so it doesn't really matter anyway.
> 
> On second thought... forget I asked.



Please start another thread. I am sure there are many on here that can answer that question.

As for the accusation, you made that bed and now you have to sleep in it. The question from an admitted non-Christian and one that passionately tries to debunk Christ in anyway seemed to be very, very open to another one of those discussions. If the question was asked just so you could jump on it and "prove it wrong" as you have tried to do on so many others, then obviously, many on here will be cautious, myself included.


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## GeauxLSU (Sep 29, 2006)

PWalls said:


> 1) You have to confess each and every specific sin and make a commitment to repentence of those specific sins. Then, the Lord will fulfill His promise and forgive you.
> 
> 2) On the Samson thing. You believe that sacrifice is different from suicide. Doesn't the "body is a temple" verse apply to both circumstances. Was Samson trying to committ suicide or was he trying to sacrifice himself? How do we know? Even if the only difference between the two is motive, is that a difference in God's eyes? In either case, one of His adopted Children is dead. On that topic, I also believe there is a difference between suicide and sacrifice, but I think that lwe make that line a little more grey (like some sins worse than others) that God does.


1) So how does someone who commits suicide do that?
2) Again, I believe Sampson was following God's command.  JUST LIKE had Abraham killed his son (had God not stopped him), that would not have been damaging the temple, it would have been following God's orders.


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## PWalls (Sep 29, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:


> 1) So how does someone who commits suicide do that?
> 2) Again, I believe Sampson was following God's command.  JUST LIKE had Abraham killed his son (had God not stopped him), that would not have been damaging the temple, it would have been following God's orders.



1) The forgiveness we are talking about here is the forgiveness for breaking the familial relationship. Just like when your son does something he shouldn't and he says "sorry Daddy, it won't happen again". You forgive him. He was never in danger of not being your son again. Same here with God. Just because you didn't repent of that sin, doesn't mean you are going to pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie. Your relationship with God is marred, but never broken (once saved, always saved).
2) Did God command Samson to tell Delilah about his hair? Did God have Samson taken and beaten and blinded? I don't think so. Samson and his own sins got him to the end where he was (that whole sin/consequence thing). At that point he came to the realization of how bad he was. I think he repented. But, I also think he knew he was to die and he just wanted to take as many with him as possible. Again, I think Samson's sacrifice/suicide is a grey issue (for me at least) as I can see both as plausible.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 29, 2006)

PWalls said:


> Please start another thread. I am sure there are many on here that can answer that question.
> 
> As for the accusation, you made that bed and now you have to sleep in it. The question from an admitted non-Christian and one that passionately tries to debunk Christ in anyway seemed to be very, very open to another one of those discussions. If the question was asked just so you could jump on it and "prove it wrong" as you have tried to do on so many others, then obviously, many on here will be cautious, myself included.



Which is why I won't start another thread on it   I have no problem sleeping in the bed I've made, because I believe in what I say.

And, just for the record, I have not posted anything on here just to 'prove it wrong' as you stated... anything I posted or any question I posed was done to create discussion about the topic.  I guess that is something we will always disagree on because we have different views of what discussion vs. debate is, just as it seems there are different views of suicide vs. murder on here now.

I no longer ask questions on this part of the forum to start a bible discussion/debate (since most seem to assume my discussions are debates), so the question I asked was genuine. In any church I have ever attended, I have never heard that belief.  Being a Christian or being saved has always had the prerequisite of hearing the gospel and accepting Jesus... otherwise everyone would be saved automatically and it wouldn't matter if one accepted it or not.

But again, please disregard the question.  Apparently I am the only one who has never heard of this before, and in that case it is a moot question since I'm not a Christian anyway.


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## Foxfire (Sep 29, 2006)

dutchman said:


> Would you care to elaborate? I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anyone else. I am just curious as to the reasoning behind this statement.



Calvinsm Once Saved Always Saved.  Go to www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=10&cuItem_itemID=9372

The article can elaborate better than I.

Foxfire/Y2KZ71


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## dutchman (Sep 29, 2006)

Foxfire said:


> Calvinsm Once Saved Always Saved.  Go to www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=10&cuItem_itemID=9372
> 
> The article can elaborate better than I.
> 
> Foxfire/Y2KZ71



Thanks for the link. I just don't buy the Lutheran doctrine.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 29, 2006)

PWalls said:


> Yes, it would be a sin that you have not repented from (don't know how you repent from Suicide?), but the same thing would happen if someone cut you off in traffic, you said a wirty-dord, and then had a fatal car accident. You just sinned and did not have a chance at repentence.




This isn't a Christian-related question so I feel fairly safe in asking... but in the above scenario, exactly what is the sin committed that needs repentance? I've been thinking about this statement all day and can't figure out just what the sin is, unless the 'dirty word' was the Lord's name in vain.


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## SBG (Sep 29, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I thought the whole basis for redemption through Jesus was if you 'accepted' it or believed in it... or not.  If Samson was dead 1000 years before Jesus, how is it that he either accepted or rejected it?



Two different dispensations...still one redeemer. Samson would have been one of the "captives" that were delivered from paradise into the presence of God.


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## SBG (Sep 29, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:


> This isn't a Christian-related question so I feel fairly safe in asking... but in the above scenario, exactly what is the sin committed that needs repentance? I've been thinking about this statement all day and can't figure out just what the sin is, unless the 'dirty word' was the Lord's name in vain.



I think it was poopie.


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Sep 29, 2006)

SBG said:


> Two different dispensations...still one redeemer. Samson would have been one of the "captives" that were delivered from paradise into the presence of God.



Amen! Mighty simple ain't it.


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 29, 2006)

SBG said:


> Two different dispensations...still one redeemer. Samson would have been one of the "captives" that were delivered from paradise into the presence of God.



  Can you tell me what bible verses discuss this? I'd like to look it up.  Thanks!


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## SBG (Sep 29, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Can you tell me what bible verses discuss this? I'd like to look it up.  Thanks!



Which part?


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## Dixie Dawg (Sep 29, 2006)

SBG said:


> Which part?



This part:



> Two different dispensations...still one redeemer. Samson would have been one of the "captives" that were delivered from paradise into the presence of God.


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## Throwback (Sep 29, 2006)

fergicop said:


> So, once saved always saved means that since I have been saved that I can now run out and do the things that Christians would not normally do because I have the insurance that I was saved already.




If you are truly saved you won't feel this way. 

T


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## Throwback (Sep 29, 2006)

So if you voted NO, what about unconfessed sins you didn't know you committed? The bible mentions IIRC(somewhere) we should pray for forgiveness for sins we have committed that we didn't know we committed. 

So if you DON'T pray for forgiveness of these sins, will you go to pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie?

My opinion is this:

There is not a single soul in pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie for lying, murder, stealing, suicide or anything else..........but there are a WHOLE passel in there for not confessing and accepting Christ as their savior. 

Though I do agree with one of the first posts, there is a LOT we won't, can't and aren't "allowed" (if you will) to know. That is for God to know. 

T


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## dutchman (Sep 30, 2006)

See post #45 Throwback. The Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ make intercession for us when we can't pray for ourselves.


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## SBG (Sep 30, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:


> This part:



Kerri, as you know, a lot of Bible doctrine is derived from taking a look at scripture in the abstract and then harmonizing them together with other scripture. That is not to say that you piece-meal or twist around scripture to force it to take on some preconceived meaning. You have to prayerfully discern the scripture in its entirety.

So you won't find the word "dispensation" in the Bible as I used it here to describe God's grace; however, you will find the doctrine by pursuing the method I described above.

Some of the verses used to establish this doctine are:

Eph. 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,  

Eph.4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.  

Eph.4:7
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.  

Eph. 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.  

Eph. 4:9
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?  

Eph. 4:10
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)  

This passage from Ephesians refers to Jesus and where he was during His time in the tomb.

Also, read the 11th chapter of Hebrews. It refers to faith in God through Christ.


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## Throwback (Sep 30, 2006)

10-4 Dutch I was being a little bit facetious (sp--it's late).

T


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## letsgohuntin (Oct 1, 2006)

I say no, because be commiting suicide you are stating that you feel that you have no other choice and not even God can help you. Basically you are turning your back on God and refusing his guidence.

Another reason I say no, is because when you commit suicide you are dead and not able to seek redemption(forgiveness) for your sin.


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## Dawg In the Swamp (Oct 1, 2006)

Yes, Considering the Lords forgiveness includes all past present future. Also there is no scripture that states otherwise. I assume its looked poorly on by God but in no way is taking your life the "unforgivable sin". 

Ask yourself this. Lets say one of those who jumped from the trade center were a believer in Christ (I assume there were), would they loose thier salvation since they decided to jump instead of being burned alive? They did at that moment decide to end thier life, thus committing suicide instead of waiting until they died from smoke inhalation or from the flames itself.


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## redwards (Oct 2, 2006)

Because we do not know the heart of an individual, we cannot give with a certainty the answer to this question. 
But God's Word can give us insight.
His Word states in Matt 12:31 that there is only one unforgivable sin. That sin being the denial of the Holy Spirit.
Also in the book of Esther, we can find scripture that may give insight.
In those days the King had the power to grant continued life or he could end physical life. Correct?
In Esther 4:10-17 look at verse 11.
Now, in Esther 5:1-8 look at verses 1-2.
Can the act of suicide be likened to trying to enter the court of the King uninvited? 
Is God any less just than King Ahasuerus in the above scriptures?
After all, who giveth life and who taketh life away?
John 5:21


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## letsgohuntin (Oct 2, 2006)

redwards said:


> Matt 12:31[/COLOR][/URL] [/COLOR]that there is only one unforgivable sin. That sin being the denial of the Holy Spirit.
> QUOTE]
> 
> That is the reasoning of my statement above, if one feels so down and out and commits suicide, he is denying that the Holy Spirit can intervene and help in whatever situation they feel hopelessly stuck in and takes matters into his own hands.
> ...


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## wildcats (Oct 2, 2006)

I think God sets up there sometimes and shakes his head at the foolishness of men.


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## Spotlite (Oct 4, 2006)

Some have told me that when a "Christain" sins, all he has to do is confess that he did it. Others have said if your a "Christian" you can not sin. Problem is, we know suicide would be sin right? Now if your dead, how you gonna confess you killed yourself, your dead.

I would say, NO, and I dont believe in once saved always saved either. I know there are some scripture to tell you that you cant, but if you read deeper in it, you can see that "if" you follow after Christ and keep his commandments and so forth, no you aint gonna sin cause you aint going to want to. But there are also scriptures that tell you if you sin, you have an advocate.


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## SBG (Oct 4, 2006)

Spotlite said:


> Now if your dead, how you gonna confess you killed yourself, your dead.
> 
> .



The confession you are referring to has nothing to do with restoring one's salvation.


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## PWalls (Oct 5, 2006)

SBG said:


> The confession you are referring to has nothing to do with restoring one's salvation.




That's what I believe as well.


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## letsgohuntin (Oct 5, 2006)

If you believe that you can still get to heaven via suicide, is'nt that in line with the preachings of some of the past  groups such as the Haleys Comet folks, Waco, etc ??? 

If we can get to heaven RIGHT NOW, why wouldn't we?


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## letsgohuntin (Oct 5, 2006)

BTW, with my above post I am in no way comparing anyone here or their post to such groups way of thinking... 

Im just introducing their beliefs of the subject into the debate.


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## Spotlite (Oct 5, 2006)

SBG said:


> The confession you are referring to has nothing to do with restoring one's salvation.



Maybe, but continuing to sin and not ever "cofessing" would eventually lead into a path of no return, so at some point it will have everything to do with salvation or restoring salvation.

Sure there is no sin greater than the other, sin is sin, but can a dead man confess anything or say Im sorry? 

But I dont think a true born again Christian is gonna do that, at some point before he got that low, he has already turned his back on God anyway.


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## leroy (Oct 5, 2006)

Spotlite said:


> Others have said if your a "Christian" you can not sin.
> I I know there are some scripture to tell you that you cant, but if you read deeper in it, you can see that "if" you follow after Christ and keep his commandments and so forth, no you aint gonna sin cause you aint going to want to. .



One thing is for sure you will sin no matter if you are a Christian or not. There is only one person to walk this earth that did not sin and that was Jesus. Anyone that tells you that because they are saved they do not sin is wrong.


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## Spotlite (Oct 5, 2006)

letsgohuntin said:


> If you believe that you can still get to heaven via suicide, is'nt that in line with the preachings of some of the past  groups such as the Haleys Comet folks, Waco, etc ???
> 
> If we can get to heaven RIGHT NOW, why wouldn't we?



I would think so.


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## GeauxLSU (Oct 5, 2006)

letsgohuntin said:


> If we can get to heaven RIGHT NOW, why wouldn't we?


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## Spotlite (Oct 5, 2006)

leroy said:


> One thing is for sure you will sin no matter if you are a Christian or not. There is only one person to walk this earth that did not sin and that was Jesus. Anyone that tells you that because they are saved they do not sin is wrong.



I agree, I have been told a 1000 times you can not sin if you are saved, but as I said in a previous post, I know there are scriptures that say that, but if they took time to read the whole passage, it will tell them, if they follow after God, if they do this and that, they aint gonna want to sin. Thats what those scripture mean, but Jesus said "if" you sin, you have an advocate to go before you. 

Kind of like, if you love your wife, do this and that for her, and you cant cheat on her. Why? its because the love you have for her, you aint gonna want to cheat on her, your heart aint gonna let you.

I for one will tell no one I cant sin, not ever.


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## Double Barrel BB (Oct 5, 2006)

SBG said:


> The confession you are referring to has nothing to do with restoring one's salvation.



AMEN!!!


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## SBG (Oct 5, 2006)

Spotlite said:


> I agree, I have been told a 1000 times you can not sin if you are saved



You've been told that by someone on here? If you did, they sure were reading a different Bible than I do!


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## PWalls (Oct 5, 2006)

SBG said:


> You've been told that by someone on here? If you did, they sure were reading a different Bible than I do!



That's the truth. Everyone sins. Period. End of discussion. Difference is that a Christian knows it's a sin and has the Holy Spirit to convict them and turn them to confession and repentence.


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