# will Jesus save our nation of pseudo Christians?



## hawglips (Aug 16, 2016)

http://www.gregtrimble.com/jesus-isnt-going-to-save-a-nation-of-pseudo-christians/


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## hummerpoo (Aug 16, 2016)

Where do Jesus' salvation and nationality interface?


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## gordon 2 (Aug 16, 2016)

hawglips said:


> http://www.gregtrimble.com/jesus-isnt-going-to-save-a-nation-of-pseudo-christians/



So the osas folk are pseudo-christians? What's your take Hawglips? Do you agree with the link?


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## centerpin fan (Aug 16, 2016)

hawglips said:


> http://www.gregtrimble.com/jesus-isnt-going-to-save-a-nation-of-pseudo-christians/


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 16, 2016)

I thought God was over his electing nations thing. Some say he never elected a nation. The elect were never Jew or Gentile.
It's always been the Church. 

The United States isn't the revived State of Israel.

Galatians 3:28
There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 17, 2016)

My Bible doesn't allude to a "nation saving Jesus", only a "sinner saving Jesus" so I have no reference to answer this.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 17, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Where do Jesus' salvation and nationality interface?



That's what I'm trying to figure out also. I'm researching osas north of the Mason/Dixon line right now and California is next on the browser highlight. No telling where this will go before I find out by myself. Wish someone who knows would just share a link.


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## PappyHoel (Aug 17, 2016)

Will Joesph Smith?


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## hawglips (Aug 25, 2016)

Is there anyone here who does not believe the USA is declining and crumbling?  

Is there anyone here who really doubts that our country's departure from Christ  has a lot to do with it?


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## hawglips (Aug 25, 2016)

Our founders certainly understood the connection between future political prosperity as a nation, and our adherence to Christian principles.

George Washington :
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indespensible supports....  Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?" (George B. de Huszar, ed., Basic American Documents, pp. 108-109)

“Our prayers, Sir, (during the Revolution) were heard – and they were graciously answered.  All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of superintending Providence in our favor….. I therefore beg leave to move, that henceforth prayers, imploring the assistance of Heaven and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business; and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.” (Allison, The Real Benjamin Franklin, p. 456)

John Adams: “Our Constitution was made for a moral and a religious people.  It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” (Howe, The Changing Political Thoughts of John Adams; p. 189)

Benjamin Franklin: “Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom.  As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.”  (Smyth, The Writings of Benjamin Franklin, 9:569)

"If we would most truly enjoy this gift of Heaven, let us become a virtuous people; then shall we both deserve and enjoy it.  While, on the other hand, if we are universally vicious and debauched in our manners, though the form of our Constitution carries the face of the most exalted freedom, we shall in reality be the most abject slaves."  (Samuel Adams; Wells, The Life and Public Service of Samuel Adams, 1:22:23)

"I now make it my earnest prayer that God would have you, and the state over which you preside, in his holy protection;  that he would incline the hearts of the citizens... to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another... and to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble limitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation."  (George Washington's message to the governors of the States after the Revolutionary War; Jay Parry and Andrew Allison, The Real George Washington, p. 723)

"It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor."  (George Washington's Thanksgiving Proclamation, 1789)

"I will now lift my voice and cry aloud to the people....From year to year be careful in the choice of your representatives and all the higher powers of government.

"Fix your eyes upon men of good understanding and known honesty; men of knowledge improved by experience; men who fear God and hate covetousness; who love truth and righteousness and sincerely wish the public welfare.

"Beware of such that are cunning rather than wise; who prefer their own interest to every thing; whose judgment is partial or fickle; and whom you would not willingly trust with your own private interests.

"When meetings are called for the choice of your rulers, do not carelessly neglect them or give your own voice with indifference... but act with serious deliberation and judgment.

"Let no man openly irreligious and immoral become your legislators.  If the legislative body are corrupt, you will soon have bad men for Counselors, corrupt judges, unqualified justices, and officers in every department who will dishonor their stations.

"Let a superior character point out the man who is to be your head.  In this choice... be always on your guard against parties and unworthy men.  Let distinguished merit always determine your vote.... 

"I call upon you to preserve the knowledge of God in the land and attend to the revelation written to us from Heaven.  If you neglect to renounce that religion taught and commanded in the holy scriptures, think no more of freedom, peace, and happiness.

"Avoid all the vices and corruption of the world; the judgments of heaven will pursue.  There will be a day of solemn judgment when all mankind must give an account of their conduct in this world."  (Samuel Langdon, address to the New Hampshire Convention to ratify the Constitution; Conrad Cherry, God's New Israel, pp. 100-105)


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## swampstalker24 (Aug 25, 2016)

hawglips said:


> Is there anyone here who does not believe the USA is declining and crumbling?
> 
> Is there anyone here who really doubts that our country's departure from Christ  has a lot to do with it?



Declining?  In what ways do you mean?  Human rights?  Equality?  Social Justice? Pretty much all of Jesus' teachings...

If there is a "god", and he favors some nations over others, I highly doubt he ever favored the US from the get-go.  You know with all the witch burnings, slavery, genocide and what not......  I don't think a benevolent god would smile upon those things


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 25, 2016)

Joseph Smith - A city shall be built, New Jerusalem [State of Missouri], in which a temple shall be reared in this generation — Doctrine and Covenants 84:3-5 (September 22 & 23, 1832) 

Does the prophesy offer us a nation any special protection from God?

I remember a few years back discussing whether America is or is not the New Jerusalem.


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## hawglips (Aug 25, 2016)

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us." 
John Hancock--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace." 
Samuel Adama--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

"When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good." 
--James Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." 
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

“While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.” –George Washington’s General Orders (1775)

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?"  --Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 18, 1781

"Is it reasonable to expect wisdom from the ignorant?  Fidelity from the profligate?  Assiduity and application to public business from men of a dissipated life?  Is it reasonable to commit the management of public revenue to one who has wasted his own patrimony? Those, therefore, who pay no regard to religion and sobriety in the persons whom they send to the legislature of any State are guilty of the greatest absurdity and will soon pay dear for their folly." --John Witherspoon, A Sermon Delivered at Public Thanksgiving after Peace

"A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader." --Samuel Adams, letter to James Warren, 1779

"The belief in a God All Powerful wise and good, is so essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man, that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources nor adapted with too much solicitude to the different characters and capacities impressed with it." --James Madison, letter to Frederick Beasley, 1825

"No country upon earth ever had it more in its power to attain these blessings than United America. Wondrously strange, then, and much to be regretted indeed would it be, were we to neglect the means and to depart from the road which Providence has pointed us to so plainly; I cannot believe it will ever come to pass." --George Washington, letter to Benjamin Lincoln, 1788

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the Ground without his Notice, is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid?" --Benjamin Franklin, to Colleagues at the Constitutional Convention

"No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand, which conducts the Affairs of men more than the People of the United States. Every step, by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency." --George Washington, First Inaugural Address, April 30, 1789

"_t is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand....The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now, They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty."--John Adams, letter to Zabdiel Adams, 21 June 1776

"The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations."—George Washington, letter to Thomas Nelson, August 20, 1778
"The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained."—George Washington, First Inaugural Address, April 30, 1789_


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## hawglips (Aug 25, 2016)

swampstalker24 said:


> Declining?  In what ways do you mean?  Human rights?  Equality?  Social Justice? Pretty much all of Jesus' teachings...
> 
> If there is a "god", and he favors some nations over others, I highly doubt he ever favored the US from the get-go.  You know with all the witch burnings, slavery, genocide and what not......  I don't think a benevolent god would smile upon those things



Declining in morality, in social justice, in liberty, in education, in greatness as a country. 

There is a God and his hand in our nation's founding and rise as the world's superpower is obvious to me, as it was to our founders.


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## hawglips (Aug 25, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Joseph Smith - A city shall be built, New Jerusalem [State of Missouri], in which a temple shall be reared in this generation — Doctrine and Covenants 84:3-5 (September 22 & 23, 1832)
> 
> Does the prophesy offer us a nation any special protection from God?
> 
> I remember a few years back discussing whether America is or is not the New Jerusalem.



No connection there as far as I know.

But I do believe this Book of Mormon prophecy:

Ether 2: 8-12

8 ...whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fullness of his wrath should come upon them.

 9 And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fullness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fullness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.

 10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fullness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.

 11 And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fullness come, that ye may not bring down the fullness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.

 12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.


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## welderguy (Aug 25, 2016)

hawglips said:


> Is there anyone here who does not believe the USA is declining and crumbling?
> 
> Is there anyone here who really doubts that our country's departure from Christ  has a lot to do with it?



In our nation alone,more unborn babies have been murdered than the number of soldiers killed in ALL our wars combined.

I"d say that's a huge decline.


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## swampstalker24 (Aug 25, 2016)

hawglips said:


> Declining in morality, in social justice, in liberty, in education, in greatness as a country.
> 
> There is a God and his hand in our nation's founding and rise as the world's superpower is obvious to me, as it was to our founders.



So we have declined in morality?  Last I checked genocide and slavery are frowned upon these days, not so much when our country was founded. If anything we are  about as moral as we've always been, but the focus on what is/isn't moral has just shifted a bit.  Liberty?  What did jesus teach about liberty?  What did god say about liberty?  Education?  Yea I can agree that we as a nation do not value education as we did in the beginning, but what does god/jesus say about education?  Remember for many years Christians frowned upon education and labeled free thinkers and scholars as heretics, many were even put to death for promoting scientific facts.....  

So you are saying god had a hand in whipping the slaves into forced labor?  Did god have a hand in wiping out millions of Native Americans in brutal ways including biological warfare?  Did god have a hand in the "money changing" going on in the "den of thieves" that has made this country one of the richest in the world?

IMO, if there was a benevolent god, who actively had a hand in the rise and fall of nations, he would have built one much, much different than the United States......


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## swampstalker24 (Aug 25, 2016)

welderguy said:


> In our nation alone,more unborn babies have been murdered than the number of soldiers killed in ALL our wars combined.
> 
> I"d say that's a huge decline.



Reminds me of the phrase "do as I say, not as I do"......


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## centerpin fan (Aug 25, 2016)

swampstalker24 said:


> So you are saying god had a hand in whipping the slaves into forced labor?  Did god have a hand in wiping out millions of Native Americans in brutal ways including biological warfare?



No, that was the Democrats acting alone.  They neither needed nor wanted God's help.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 25, 2016)

swampstalker24 said:


> IMO, if there was a benevolent god, who actively had a hand in the rise and fall of nations, he would have built one much, much different than the United States......



America is the greatest country in the history of the world.  As Dennis Prager has written, America is the world's"last, best hope".


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 25, 2016)

The "den of thieves" has something to do with the Jews, Donald Trump, and the New Jerusalem(America)
See page 97;

http://www.americanfreepress.net/PDF/Jerusalem.pdf

I know, I read too much! This was written by a crazy conspiracy theorist.


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## swampstalker24 (Aug 25, 2016)

centerpin fan said:


> No, that was the Democrats acting alone.  They neither needed nor wanted God's help.



Well slave labor and the genocide of the native americans in the name of "manifest destiny" were two pretty significant factors in making this nation "great"....  Just wondering if Hawg thinks god had his hands in these matters...


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## centerpin fan (Aug 25, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I know, I read too much.



You don't read too much.  You just read too much crap.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 25, 2016)

swampstalker24 said:


> Well slave labor and the genocide of the native americans in the name of "manifest destiny" were two pretty significant factors in making this nation "great"....



Electing Democrats does have consequences.


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## formula1 (Aug 25, 2016)

*re:*

Jesus is in the business of saving those who will turn to Him.  It's not about nations but about Kingdom citizenship.
And He is the door! And it's always free when you walk thru the door!  

I've found it to be most freeing when there is only one Master to please!  God bless!


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## swampstalker24 (Aug 25, 2016)

centerpin fan said:


> Electing Democrats does have consequences.



Soooo....  you have nothing to actually contribute to the OP?


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## gordon 2 (Aug 25, 2016)

hawglips said:


> Our founders certainly understood the connection between future political prosperity as a nation, and our adherence to Christian principles.
> 
> George Washington :
> "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indespensible supports....  Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?" (George B. de Huszar, ed., Basic American Documents, pp. 108-109)
> ...




Too bad President Pope did not read this! But maybe he did, and just though of it as spin?

I thought that the 1960s was a good date to start with the downward spiral, but then I thought of Pres. Pope as a better start date...

It seems to me that the generation that raised this one... might...have something to do with the spiritual problems  too often seen in the present generation? All the spiritual problems surely can't fall on the children like they had  parents with no issues?

And what I still understand from the original post and link is that the osas folk are the problemo... ?


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## gordon 2 (Aug 25, 2016)

formula1 said:


> Jesus is in the business of saving those who will turn to Him.  It's not about nations but about Kingdom citizenship.
> And He is the door! And it's always free when you walk thru the door!
> 
> I've found it to be most freeing when there is only one Master to please!  God bless!



Agreed.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 25, 2016)

hawglips said:


> Declining in morality, in social justice, in liberty, in education, in greatness as a country.
> 
> There is a God and his hand in our nation's founding and rise as the world's superpower is obvious to me, as it was to our founders.





Can you explain this, not so much the view of the founders, but your own concerning God's hand " in our nations ...rise as a world's superpower?


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## centerpin fan (Aug 25, 2016)

swampstalker24 said:


> Soooo....  you have nothing to actually contribute to the OP?



You asked a question.  I gave you the answer.


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## Browniez (Aug 25, 2016)

I would have to say what made our nation great was accepting with open arms "your tired, your lonely, your downtrodden, and your poor". 

Sounds like the philosophy of a loving God at work to me.

It's rather insulting to think that God places so much importance on one country, while leaving the other 7 billion people on earth as second fiddle.

Pretty sure we were ALL created in his image, and perhaps every different faith is a different manifestation of how HIS WILL is best revealed to every culture and people.

I think it's instructive that Jesus told his disciples to record their books in the way that they interpreted his teachings. Perhaps because not everyone learns or sees the same way?

As an aside, do you think Jesus will save the pastors of certain mega churches? One of which I know lives in a 5+ million dollar home on a point on Lake Lanier, and sent his children to a 30k per year private school, and has a custom tiled pool in his backyard, and drives 100k mercedes? Doesn't sound like much of an ascetic man of God to me.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 25, 2016)

Browniez said:


> It's rather insulting to think that God places so much importance on one country, while leaving the other 7 billion people on earth as second fiddle.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 25, 2016)

Browniez said:


> As an aside, do you think Jesus will save the pastors of certain mega churches? One of which I know lives in a 5+ million dollar home on a point on Lake Lanier, and sent his children to a 30k per year private school, and has a custom tiled pool in his backyard, and drives 100k mercedes? Doesn't sound like much of an ascetic man of God to me.



He'll stand before the Great Judgement Seat of Christ just like the rest of us.



			
				Philippians 2:12 said:
			
		

> ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


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## swampstalker24 (Aug 25, 2016)

I bet hitler and many of his Nazis had the notion that god smiled upon their nation as well...


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## RH Clark (Aug 30, 2016)

swampstalker24 said:


> I bet hitler and many of his Nazis had the notion that god smiled upon their nation as well...



God is not judging this nation. If he were we would have already been judged and sentenced to He!!.

We are under a new dispensation of grace.
Hebrews 10:16-20King James Version (KJV)

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;



Or nation has degenerated not because of the judgment of God but because of our choice to follow Satan rather than God. God isn't doing it to us, we are doing it to ourselves.


When the time of God's grace is over, God will judge, and that time will be short lest no flesh remain alive on the earth.


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 31, 2016)

swampstalker24 said:


> I bet hitler and many of his Nazis had the notion that god smiled upon their nation as well...



Actually Hitler's hero was Neitzche, who was (wait for it)...................................................................and atheist, but don't let the truth get in the way of your dogma (or is it stigma?)


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Sep 8, 2016)

swampstalker24 said:


> Declining?  In what ways do you mean?  Human rights?  Equality?  Social Justice? Pretty much all of Jesus' teachings...
> 
> If there is a "god", and he favors some nations over others, I highly doubt he ever favored the US from the get-go.  You know with all the witch burnings, slavery, genocide and what not......  I don't think a benevolent god would smile upon those things



You left out the murder of the unborn Americans


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## swampstalker24 (Sep 8, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Actually Hitler's hero was Neitzche, who was (wait for it)...................................................................and atheist, but don't let the truth get in the way of your dogma (or is it stigma?)





> I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work.


- Adolf Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936



> What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.


- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8



> I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.


- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2



> Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children.


- Adolf Hitler reflecting on World War I, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 7


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## swampstalker24 (Sep 8, 2016)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> You left out the murder of the unborn Americans



I never said that wasn't immoral, or that it's not happening....

Do unborn American lives matter more than those of the Native Americans that were murdered in the name of "Manifest Destiny"?


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Sep 8, 2016)

swampstalker24 said:


> I never said that wasn't immoral, or that it's not happening....
> 
> Do unborn American lives matter more than those of the Native Americans that were murdered in the name of "Manifest Destiny"?



No, but the fact is that a lot more unborn Americans have been murdered, and it is ongoing.  

Which do you suppose matters more: sins committed long ago by parties that are all long dead, or sins that are ongoing?


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## centerpin fan (Sep 8, 2016)

Adolf Hitler said:
			
		

> I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work....
> 
> What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator....
> 
> ...







			
				Bruce Jenner said:
			
		

> I am a woman.



http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2015/04/24/bruce-jenner-speaks-i-am-a-woman/26239025/


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## swampstalker24 (Sep 8, 2016)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> No, but the fact is that a lot more unborn Americans have been murdered, and it is ongoing.
> 
> Which do you suppose matters more: sins committed long ago by parties that are all long dead, or sins that are ongoing?



Well in reference to the OP, both matter.


Do you agree that god had a hand in creating this nation?  

If so, would you also agree that he had a hand in all the atrocities committed by our forefathers while making this nation "great"?  

But since we're already asking questions that don't matter one way or the other to the OP, what's the difference in the killing of innocent children today by us humans, and the killing of innocent children by god himself?  Once again, im reminded of the adage "do as I say, not as I do".....


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