# Force fetching pup



## bradyb (Feb 11, 2014)

I got a 9 month old pup, knows all commands and a retrieving machine. I just need it force fetched and I really don't know how to do it. Any suggestions??


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## jerry russell (Feb 12, 2014)

After going through it several times with my dogs, I can offer this advice. Ensure that you are fully educated as to how it is done and I mean FULLY educated. Not just some advice off of a forum. Be sure that you are willing to go through with it before you start. It is tough on the dog but absolutely the right thing to do.  It is also an emotional event for the trainer as well. Trust me.

I have trained every single dog I have ever owned but as necessary as this phase is, I hated putting my own dog through it.  I would think that for some folks, force fetch is something best left to a pro or a skilled friend.  Even if you want to do it yourself, consult with a pro and spend a an hour or two with him to let him look your pup over so that he can give you guidance before you start.


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## sasmojoe (Feb 12, 2014)

I echo everything Jerry said, I would get a good dog training video or book if you decide to do it yourself.
 I have used Chris Akin's DVD before and had good success with it.


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## Jim P (Apr 24, 2014)

I just watched a video from "Gibsons-West Training method" it is the best that I have seen, please take a look you will be surprise how easy it is. And there is no pain to the dog.


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## krazybronco2 (Apr 28, 2014)

best advice you can get for the subject is get a training program and watch it multilple times before even starting. next find a local pro and go and watch him FF some dogs and ask QUESTIONS dont be afraid to ask questions.


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## StevePickard (May 22, 2014)

Jim,
Where can I find the video "Gibsons-West Training method".  I've googled it but can't find anything.
Thanks,
Steve


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## StevePickard (May 28, 2014)

With Jim's help, I found the link to the video "Gibson-West Training Method.
Here's the youtube link:

Its long, over 30 minutes but very good info. 
Steve


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## NE GA Pappy (May 28, 2014)

Wolters book, Water Dog, should be required reading for anyone even thinking about owning a lab.  Best book on the breed and training them, IMHO.


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## SilveradoZ71 (May 28, 2014)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Wolters book, Water Dog, should be required reading for anyone even thinking about owning a lab.  Best book on the breed and training them, IMHO.



A 50 year old book is the best info available about Labs and training them?

Really?


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## bkl021475 (May 28, 2014)

SilveradoZ71 said:


> A 50 year old book is the best info available about Labs and training them?
> 
> Really?



Too bad some of the best and local trainers have been banned for this guy. We would have had a quick answer.


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## quackwacker (May 29, 2014)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Wolters book, Water Dog, should be required reading for anyone even thinking about owning a lab.  Best book on the breed and training them, IMHO.



SMH


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## GSURugger (May 29, 2014)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Wolters book, Water Dog, should be required reading for anyone even thinking about owning a lab.  Best book on the breed and training them, IMHO.



I've read it.  It doesn't touch on FF.  At all.  There is literally one sentence that mentions FF.


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## BobSacamano (May 29, 2014)

Water dog V something like Lardys program or smart work is like putting a pair of hiking boots next to my truck and saying take your pick. But you have 100 miles to travel. Which do you choose? Choose the boots if you want. But I'm driving.


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## SilveradoZ71 (May 29, 2014)

BobSacamano said:


> Water dog V something like Lardys program or smart work is like putting a pair of hiking boots next to my truck and saying take your pick. But you have 100 miles to travel. Which do you choose? Choose the boots if you want. But I'm driving.



Lol. ^^^^^^^^^


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## Joe Overby (May 29, 2014)

StevePickard said:


> With Jim's help, I found the link to the video "Gibson-West Training Method.
> Here's the youtube link:
> 
> Its long, over 30 minutes but very good info.
> Steve


What a joke. They acknowledge the use of nagging to train an animal AND they falsely accuse other programs of inflicting pain to get a dog to reach BEFORE a dog is taught to hold. Complete and utter crap. And I'm sorry, but that's NOT what a complete retrieve for a bird should look like...at all...that dog actually thought about not picking it up...
If you want a ff video get the one by Judy Aycock and Danny Farmer...they have plenty of accreditation to back up their methods.


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## quackwacker (May 29, 2014)

from the looks of that one screen shot, looks like they are building a sled dog!


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## BobSacamano (May 29, 2014)

I have force fetched a good many dogs. That was the most convoluted method of teaching fetch I've ever seen. That guy/girl encourages nagging a dog with an ecollar for up to 1 hour to do something the dog has no idea what your asking? But she won't pinch an ear? Also there is no verbal command given during the stimulation from what I could gather. So what command is the dog associating the behavior with? The OB is terrible on the dogs and there was little compliance to much of anything the handlers said. 

She/he said one thing that was correct and a good point. "Dogs don't generalize and carry over new behaviors to all environments."

Where did this come from?


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## krazybronco2 (May 30, 2014)

StevePickard said:


> With Jim's help, I found the link to the video "Gibson-West Training Method.
> Here's the youtube link:
> 
> Its long, over 30 minutes but very good info.
> Steve



Maybe the dumbest thing I have ever heard if u don't want to pinch an ear at least look at bill hillmans 
method of force fetch.

finally watched the video and holy cow only thing i heard that i liked was at the end, take your time and don't rush things and then dogs don't generalize but you don't have to force on every bird your dog will ever pick up. i 99.99% sure you can tell any traditionally forced dog to fetch something and they will. heck i pass the remote for the tv to my room mate with my dog, she even will carry a full or empty beer bottle around.


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## BobSacamano (Jun 3, 2014)

At the end of the day it boils down to people don't want to hurt their buddy. There is a negative connotation that surrounds force fetch. It's misguided and ignorance for the most part. I've seen people that haven't gone through the process with gaping holes and problems that inadvertently ring about bigger problems later on in life that a simple process could've have eliminated. I contend that a process of forcing in the beginning is more humane and quicker than most other methods. Watch what the old timer Amish trainers did to the dogs. The nagging in the above video is also a good example. 
Do your homework. Go with proven methods that make the highest level of dogs in the world and have fun.


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## king killer delete (Jun 8, 2014)

http://www.tritronics.com/content/h...nd-force-breaking-your-retriever-for-hunting/


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## king killer delete (Jun 8, 2014)

http://www.wildfowlmag.com/stop-the-drop-how-to-force-break-your-dog.html


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## creekrocket (Jun 17, 2014)

There plenty of videos and books on how to 'do it yourself'; and it can be done. But, if you get a chance to talk with a someone that does it for a living or has been 'seasoned' in this field, they'll probably be helpful and truthful enough to recommend someone else with experience doing it for you. Most trainers wouldn't mind you there on the sidelines, be it your dog or someone else's. 
Steve Durrence @ Taylor Farm Kennels in Sylvania would be my first choice, no questions asked. 
If you're nice enough, Killer Elite might even help you....


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## king killer delete (Jun 17, 2014)

I only force fecth duck hunting buddys and your next


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## krazybronco2 (Jun 18, 2014)

killer elite said:


> I only force fecth duck hunting buddys and your next



killer how many dogs do you think you have force broke?


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## BobSacamano (Jun 18, 2014)

Force fetch isn't rocket science but you better know how to read a dog properly if you want to make sure it's thorough. 99% of problems I've seen with other dogs, is incomplete work from ear pinch through the T field. Nearly every dog is different. Nearly every dog responds different to each step and you better be able to make an "in-game" coaching move to adjust for each dog's weirdness. I think most amatuer trainers when they come up to something the dog isn't understanding, just avoid the issue and move on. Or they fight the dog doing it the way the video shows them to do it, you get frustrated, the dog gets frustrated and you skip the step. 

moral of the story. Don't screw the dog up, get some help doing it if your determined to do it by yourself. And I'd say a majority of dogs people say are force fetched, aren't thoroughly force fetched.


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## king killer delete (Jun 18, 2014)

krazybronco2 said:


> killer how many dogs do you think you have force broke?


I have lost count. I force fetched my first dog in 1979. Always used the ear pinch and then we forced them to a pile.


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## king killer delete (Jun 18, 2014)

BobSacamano said:


> Force fetch isn't rocket science but you better know how to read a dog properly if you want to make sure it's thorough. 99% of problems I've seen with other dogs, is incomplete work from ear pinch through the T field. Nearly every dog is different. Nearly every dog responds different to each step and you better be able to make an "in-game" coaching move to adjust for each dog's weirdness. I think most amatuer trainers when they come up to something the dog isn't understanding, just avoid the issue and move on. Or they fight the dog doing it the way the video shows them to do it, you get frustrated, the dog gets frustrated and you skip the step.
> 
> moral of the story. Don't screw the dog up, get some help doing it if your determined to do it by yourself. And I'd say a majority of dogs people say are force fetched, aren't thoroughly force fetched.


You are exactly right. But you know I can remember when I said pretty much the same you have and some of the Xperts told me I did not know what I was talking about. Just cause you have trained one dog does not make you an expert. I learned something new every day I trained. each dog was a new project. Sometimes you have to back up an regroup. Some dogs can not take pressure and some can take it. But like you have said it is not a fight it is training. The more you learn the better you will be as a trainer. The guys that do it for a living can read a dog and most can tell youwhat is coming next.


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## BobSacamano (Jun 18, 2014)

killer elite said:


> You are exactly right. But you know I can remember when I said pretty much the same you have and some of the Xperts told me I did not know what I was talking about. Just cause you have trained one dog does not make you an expert. I learned something new every day I trained. each dog was a new project. Sometimes you have to back up an regroup. Some dogs can not take pressure and some can take it. But like you have said it is not a fight it is training. The more you learn the better you will be as a trainer. The guys that do it for a living can read a dog and most can tell youwhat is coming next.



Heres a good example for you KillerElite. You seem to know your stuff. Got 3 going into T work right now. One learning to sit to whistle (while on a rope). You wear good leather gloves to keep from getting rope burns with fast dogs. This dog got real skittish around my left side all of a sudden, when we started this. Took a few minutes and realized the goofy joker was scared of the glove on my left hand. Had to put it on my right hand, and all went well. You just never know.


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## Joe Overby (Jun 19, 2014)

You know, the more I read this thread the more I hear a common theme recurring. The advice to "find someone experienced to mentor you" is almost every post. Intermingled are the posts about so called experts and buying outdated books or new fangled dvds. I fully support the mentor route but folks remember this, MOST of the ACTUAL experts out there are pros...meaning they get paid to ff dogs. Some are nicer than others, some are better than others but they make a living training dogs. If you're going to approach one about ff help PLEASE remember this. I don't say this to make anyone mad or to start another fight BUT, if you're gonna ask a PRO for help one should OFFER to compensate said pro. 

Now, some of yall are gonna say "it's only one dog, they make enough money to help one person", and while that may be true where does it end? You help one and then he brings a friend and now you're helping 2 and then someone hears about it and now you're helping 3 and before you know it you're doing it for free OR you turn somebody down and they bad mouth you for not giving them a hand out. Compensation comes in many forms...as pros we spend our time training...the grass doesn't get cut, the trucks and trailers don't get washed, birds need thrown,  kennels need cleaned, puppies need pigeons thrown for them...the list goes on. Pros have wives and families they like to spend time with outside of work too...I'm not saying don't ask a pro...most are more than willing to lend a hand and MOST wouldn't dream of asking for anything in return but, man we appreciate it when it's offered. I met my 2 best friends (besides my wife) over deals just like this.


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## krazybronco2 (Jun 19, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> You know, the more I read this thread the more I hear a common theme recurring. The advice to "find someone experienced to mentor you" is almost every post. Intermingled are the posts about so called experts and buying outdated books or new fangled dvds. I fully support the mentor route but folks remember this, MOST of the ACTUAL experts out there are pros...meaning they get paid to ff dogs. Some are nicer than others, some are better than others but they make a living training dogs. If you're going to approach one about ff help PLEASE remember this. I don't say this to make anyone mad or to start another fight BUT, if you're gonna ask a PRO for help one should OFFER to compensate said pro.
> 
> Now, some of yall are gonna say "it's only one dog, they make enough money to help one person", and while that may be true where does it end? You help one and then he brings a friend and now you're helping 2 and then someone hears about it and now you're helping 3 and before you know it you're doing it for free OR you turn somebody down and they bad mouth you for not giving them a hand out. Compensation comes in many forms...as pros we spend our time training...the grass doesn't get cut, the trucks and trailers don't get washed, birds need thrown,  kennels need cleaned, puppies need pigeons thrown for them...the list goes on. Pros have wives and families they like to spend time with outside of work too...I'm not saying don't ask a pro...most are more than willing to lend a hand and MOST wouldn't dream of asking for anything in return but, man we appreciate it when it's offered. I met my 2 best friends (besides my wife) over deals just like this.



i couldnt agree more. i am a newb to this sport and love it but i will say most pros and even some really got am trainers that i have meet (not all) dont mind helping you but you have to be willing to help them not just show up. help with some cash, thowing birds, loading wingers, planting blinds heck some will be thrilled with a couple of bags of ice and some beer.

also i will say go and meet different pros or really good ams see how they train because every pro or am i have ever trained with has a different way of expalining things and doing things. find what works for you and your dog. like i was told at the very beginning of training dogs. you can put 3 dog trainers in a room and the only thing you can get 2 of them agree on is the other third trainer is wrong.


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## king killer delete (Jun 19, 2014)

BobSacamano said:


> Heres a good example for you KillerElite. You seem to know your stuff. Got 3 going into T work right now. One learning to sit to whistle (while on a rope). You wear good leather gloves to keep from getting rope burns with fast dogs. This dog got real skittish around my left side all of a sudden, when we started this. Took a few minutes and realized the goofy joker was scared of the glove on my left hand. Had to put it on my right hand, and all went well. You just never know.



Yes sir. The things you would not think of can make a dog go crazy. Back before hunt test came along I knew a a club that would run club trials and place dogs in a hunting dog stake. They loved to put a rabbit in a cage half way to a thrown bird in a direct line to the mark. You would have been shocked at how many dogs went crazy when they went for the bird and smelled the rabbit. I have seen dogs afraid of a ball cap. As you said you got to be able to read a dog. when he has his ears tucked back watch out you do not know what is next.


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## king killer delete (Jun 19, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> You know, the more I read this thread the more I hear a common theme recurring. The advice to "find someone experienced to mentor you" is almost every post. Intermingled are the posts about so called experts and buying outdated books or new fangled dvds. I fully support the mentor route but folks remember this, MOST of the ACTUAL experts out there are pros...meaning they get paid to ff dogs. Some are nicer than others, some are better than others but they make a living training dogs. If you're going to approach one about ff help PLEASE remember this. I don't say this to make anyone mad or to start another fight BUT, if you're gonna ask a PRO for help one should OFFER to compensate said pro.
> 
> Now, some of yall are gonna say "it's only one dog, they make enough money to help one person", and while that may be true where does it end? You help one and then he brings a friend and now you're helping 2 and then someone hears about it and now you're helping 3 and before you know it you're doing it for free OR you turn somebody down and they bad mouth you for not giving them a hand out. Compensation comes in many forms...as pros we spend our time training...the grass doesn't get cut, the trucks and trailers don't get washed, birds need thrown,  kennels need cleaned, puppies need pigeons thrown for them...the list goes on. Pros have wives and families they like to spend time with outside of work too...I'm not saying don't ask a pro...most are more than willing to lend a hand and MOST wouldn't dream of asking for anything in return but, man we appreciate it when it's offered. I met my 2 best friends (besides my wife) over deals just like this.


Yes sir the Pro should be paid. I did not have money when I started out. I cleaned kennels , fed dogs , washed out dog trailers, Threw birds. You name I did it just to learn. But you should be ready to pay cash money. Knowledge is power. Folks that write computer programs get paid for what they know. So should a pro dog trainer.


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## quackwacker (Jun 23, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> You know, the more I read this thread the more I hear a common theme recurring. The advice to "find someone experienced to mentor you" is almost every post. Intermingled are the posts about so called experts and buying outdated books or new fangled dvds. I fully support the mentor route but folks remember this, MOST of the ACTUAL experts out there are pros...meaning they get paid to ff dogs. Some are nicer than others, some are better than others but they make a living training dogs. If you're going to approach one about ff help PLEASE remember this. I don't say this to make anyone mad or to start another fight BUT, if you're gonna ask a PRO for help one should OFFER to compensate said pro.
> 
> Now, some of yall are gonna say "it's only one dog, they make enough money to help one person", and while that may be true where does it end? You help one and then he brings a friend and now you're helping 2 and then someone hears about it and now you're helping 3 and before you know it you're doing it for free OR you turn somebody down and they bad mouth you for not giving them a hand out. Compensation comes in many forms...as pros we spend our time training...the grass doesn't get cut, the trucks and trailers don't get washed, birds need thrown,  kennels need cleaned, puppies need pigeons thrown for them...the list goes on. Pros have wives and families they like to spend time with outside of work too...I'm not saying don't ask a pro...most are more than willing to lend a hand and MOST wouldn't dream of asking for anything in return but, man we appreciate it when it's offered. I met my 2 best friends (besides my wife) over deals just like this.


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