# May I ask a question?



## tomtlb66 (Oct 3, 2010)

First off, thank you guys for letting me post here. You have been very respectful of my beliefs and I want to thank you for that. I was just wondering what do you think really made all the planets, stars, and all the galaxies that scientists cannot fully explain their origin. The galaxies are perfect in order and in everyday motion as well.

Our planet is perfectly aligned towards the sun so that if it moved the slightest direction either way, the effect would be disasterous. We have the perfect mixture in our air we breathe and the earth rotates in a perfect way that it gives life to everything on it.

Do you actually think, all this and so much more just happened? I think I am just asking an intelligent question and I am not saying anything out of context here.
Would you agree with that statement?

Now, if I was a gambling man, could I put everything I own on a bet that everything on our planet and throughout the universe could exist without a higher being? Would you say that was a safe bet? All I am saying is that would have to be perfection at its finest, and I honestly cannot see all of this happening from an accident or a big bang theory without some sort of control over it all. Would you agree?

Thank you guys again for an intelligent and respectful discussion that I think we will be having. God bless, Tom


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## Sterlo58 (Oct 3, 2010)

I have to agree everything is aligned pretty well...however you can't justify the bible just on these facts alone. It is quite a Santa Claus story if you interpret it literally.  

I am not convinced that we are here by big bang chance alone...but the bible is quite a work of incredible imagination. Nobody knows the true answer. The bible and christian teaching is a stretch if you think about it. 

Every culture has a different theory on creation and afterlife. Fact is...we don't know till we take the dirt nap.
Even then we may not know. Enjoy life and live it to it's fullest but live a good moral life and all is good.


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## tomtlb66 (Oct 3, 2010)

Thank you for your reply. Now, you have to got admit, perfection cannot be made by man correct? If that was the case we wouldn't need a mechanic.

Every culture has had a theory on creation and afterlife and most had a God or Gods correct?

What I am saying is this, we cannot create anything without having something to begin with. All of this magnificent stuff we see everyday and we take advantage of cannot be made by man or by chance.

Think about the seasons, they come and go each year, pretty good timing for chance. The sun is always shining and never burns out, pretty good for luck. And we are born, live and grow, pretty good for coincidence.

Thats all I am saying. Thank you for posting


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## slip (Oct 3, 2010)

Sterlo58 said:


> I have to agree everything is aligned pretty well...however you can't justify the bible just on these facts alone. It is quite a Santa Claus story if you interpret it literally.
> 
> I am not convinced that we are here by big bang chance alone...but the bible is quite a work of incredible imagination. Nobody knows the true answer. The bible and christian teaching is a stretch if you think about it.
> 
> ...



i agree.


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## ambush80 (Oct 3, 2010)

tomtlb66 said:


> Thank you for your reply. Now, you have to got admit, perfection cannot be made by man correct? If that was the case we wouldn't need a mechanic.
> 
> Every culture has had a theory on creation and afterlife and most had a God or Gods correct?
> 
> ...



It happens all the time.


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## ambush80 (Oct 3, 2010)

To answer your original question I will just say that of all the possibilities I have ever heard of how the universe came to be the notion that it was created in 6 days is akin to the American Indian idea that the universe is riding on the back of a big turtle.  

I implore you.  Look at some creation stories from other cultures.  They are VERY easy to Google.  When you read them and chuckle to yourself, simply understand that I hear YOUR version and do the same chuckle.


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## tomtlb66 (Oct 4, 2010)

Ok thats fine. But exactly what do you mean it happens all the time, do you mean everything acts and comes together in a perfect manner all the time. I, as a human being, would have to really take the time and ponder the fact that everything in our world and universe functions with no problems or flaws every minute of the day. 

People walk, talk, and eat and sleep in a world that works perfectly as far as being a planet where we can live. How can this be by chance? All I am saying is that perfection cannot be made by man or by luck. And I think you can see that as well. Thanks for posting again, I think we have some great discussions on each others point of view or beliefs. Thanks and God bless


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## pnome (Oct 4, 2010)

tomtlb66 said:


> First off, thank you guys for letting me post here. You have been very respectful of my beliefs and I want to thank you for that. I was just wondering what do you think really made all the planets, stars, and all the galaxies that scientists cannot fully explain their origin. The galaxies are perfect in order and in everyday motion as well.



Don't know.



> Our planet is perfectly aligned towards the sun so that if it moved the slightest direction either way, the effect would be disasterous. We have the perfect mixture in our air we breathe and the earth rotates in a perfect way that it gives life to everything on it.



If things had been different, they would have been different, but this is how things are.



> Do you actually think, all this and so much more just happened?



Maybe.  Maybe not.



> I think I am just asking an intelligent question and I am not saying anything out of context here.
> Would you agree with that statement?



You are presenting the Teleological argument.  

Read up.  It's a very common a priori argument for the existence of a god. 

Unfortunately, I'm not swayed by such arguments.  



> Now, if I was a gambling man, could I put everything I own on a bet that everything on our planet and throughout the universe could exist without a higher being? Would you say that was a safe bet? All I am saying is that would have to be perfection at its finest, and I honestly cannot see all of this happening from an accident or a big bang theory without some sort of control over it all. Would you agree?



No.

Our lives are not what I would consider "perfection at it's finest."   If the entire universe were designed just for us in such a perfect way, then why is there evil?  Why earthquakes and floods?  Why nuclear bombs?  Why is that possible in a perfect universe?




> Thank you guys again for an intelligent and respectful discussion that I think we will be having. God bless, Tom




You're welcome.


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2010)

tomtlb66 said:


> Ok thats fine. But exactly what do you mean it happens all the time,




I meant that suns burn out and die all the time.



tomtlb66 said:


> do you mean everything acts and comes together in a perfect manner all the time.




you mean like 3 legged frogs and spina bifida?




tomtlb66 said:


> I, as a human being, would have to really take the time and ponder the fact that everything in our world and universe functions with no problems or flaws every minute of the day.
> 
> People walk, talk, and eat and sleep in a world that works perfectly as far as being a planet where we can live. How can this be by chance? All I am saying is that perfection cannot be made by man or by luck. And I think you can see that as well. Thanks for posting again, I think we have some great discussions on each others point of view or beliefs. Thanks and God bless



This system works pretty well in my opinion;  I might even call it perfect, despite the odor of excrement and the cruelty and the blues.  The model that you dream of: lions lying with lambs and mosquitoes that drink lemonade instead of blood is a pipe dream and the pursuit of it has been a giant waste of your time here on Earth.


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## tomtlb66 (Oct 4, 2010)

Thanks for your posts, again, I believe all of us have expressed our beliefs and have treated each other in a respectful manner. As far as three legged frogs go, I have no answer for that. As far as spina bifida, which my daughter was diagnosed with, she is in perfect health and walks plays and acts like every other child. There no effects of her illness at all. Guess the medical world and all this medical knowledge cannot explain her miraculous recovery. I can tell you what many people including my family and I are saying, God healed her.

As far as earthquakes go, I think there is a fault line or something to that effect. Nuclear bombs man made, and free will which we all have.

I enjoy discussing matters with you guys very much. We have our views and beliefs and we share them all with each other. I have to say this though, I believe in God and His creation, thats all I am saying, and I am not trying to offend anyone here.


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2010)

tomtlb66 said:


> Thanks for your posts, again, I believe all of us have expressed our beliefs and have treated each other in a respectful manner.






tomtlb66 said:


> As far as three legged frogs go, I have no answer for that. As far as spina bifida, which my daughter was diagnosed with, she is in perfect health and walks plays and acts like every other child. There no effects of her illness at all. Guess the medical world and all this medical knowledge cannot explain her miraculous recovery. I can tell you what many people including my family and I are saying, God healed her.



Do you believe that there are Hindus that have had their children miraculously cured?  When they claim merciful Ganesh healed their children would you tell them that they are wrong?   



tomtlb66 said:


> As far as earthquakes go, I think there is a fault line or something to that effect. Nuclear bombs man made, and free will which we all have.
> 
> I enjoy discussing matters with you guys very much. We have our views and beliefs and we share them all with each other. I have to say this though, I believe in God and His creation, thats all I am saying, and I am not trying to offend anyone here.



You have been a pleasure to converse with as well.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 4, 2010)

*Conservation of Mass*



tomtlb66 said:


> Do you actually think, all this and so much more just happened?



This is a good question. But better stated it comes down to the immutable law (not theory, or Biblical account, or ancient ritual) of the Conservation of Mass.

Simply put, mass (and there is a LOT of it in the universe) can not be created or destroyed.  This of course hinges on the universe being a closed system (which it is).  Even if there were alternate universe ad infinitum, the whole would be a closed system.  

Thus the Big Bang theory falls apart every time.  A theory that conflicts a Law isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  Arguing for BB is a waste of time.

So we are left with this same issue - "Where did all matter come from?"  

Now there is a BIG leap between here, and a literal Biblical interpretation of creation.  In fact, many well intentioned Biblical Scholars attempt to resolve it in many ways, some of which conflict (God-days, literal days, 'created age', etc...).

As for me, after a LOT of scientific study, inductive reasoning and logic, I came to the conclusion that all of creation points toward a Creator.


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> This is a good question. But better stated it comes down to the immutable law (not theory, or Biblical account, or ancient ritual) of the Conservation of Mass.
> 
> Simply put, mass (and there is a LOT of it in the universe) can not be created or destroyed.  This of course hinges on the universe being a closed system (which it is).  Even if there were alternate universe ad infinitum, the whole would be a closed system.
> 
> ...



Who created the creator?  If the creator could have always been, why couldn't the "stuff" always have been?


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## pnome (Oct 4, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> This is a good question. But better stated it comes down to the immutable law (not theory, or Biblical account, or ancient ritual) of the Conservation of Mass.
> 
> Simply put, mass (and there is a LOT of it in the universe) can not be created or destroyed.  This of course hinges on the universe being a closed system (which it is).  Even if there were alternate universe ad infinitum, the whole would be a closed system.
> 
> ...



Argument from incredulity leading to a "God of the Gaps."


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## mickbear (Oct 4, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> Simply put, mass (and there is a LOT of it in the universe) can not be created or destroyed.


then,how did god create it? who or what created god? its the old question "which came first the chicken or the egg"   
 we assume we are the only life in the entire solar system.we are just one tiny spot in a vast area.we no nothing of what's happening just a small distance from our planet (in space time).christians base everything on one story in one book written by man (actually many,over hundres of years and changed untold amount of times).


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## stringmusic (Oct 4, 2010)

Sterlo58 said:


> I have to agree everything is aligned pretty well...however you can't justify the bible just on these facts alone. It is quite a Santa Claus story if you interpret it literally.
> 
> I am not convinced that we are here by big bang chance alone...but the bible is quite a work of incredible imagination. Nobody knows the true answer. The bible and christian teaching is a stretch if you think about it.
> 
> ...



whats the point in this if you dont beleive in God?


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## Madman (Oct 4, 2010)

mickbear said:


> then,how did god create it? who or what created god?



From the logical argument nothing had to create God.  Only created things need a creator, God is eternal.  As for matter, read Genisis.



> we assume we are the only life in the entire solar system.we are just one tiny spot in a vast area.we no nothing of what's happening just a small distance from our planet (in space time).



Not sure how this supports your side of the discussion.  Even the potential life you speak of had to be created.



> christians base everything on one story in one book written by man



I don't.  I see the evidence of God in His creation, a.k.a general revelation.  The Bible gives us the specific revelation of Jesus Christ.



> (actually many,over hundres of years and changed untold amount of times)



As to date no one has been able to give evidence of this.  I am interested in what you have.  In fact the evidence actually points to how "unchanged" the Scriptures have remained.


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## tomtlb66 (Oct 4, 2010)

Wonderful posts. See, how we can all have discussions without pointing a finger at each other? I have my beliefs and I have my God and I see Him in my life where there are no scientific explanations. Thats my stance and I say that with all due respect to everyone. 

I have thought about many things that cannot be explained, without having a higher being and they just don't add up. My purpose is just to get people thinking, thats all


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## VisionCasting (Oct 4, 2010)

*In Wiki I Trust*



pnome said:


> Argument from incredulity leading to a "God of the Gaps."



Don't jump to the god of Wiki just yet!  I'm not saying the 'traditional' creationist view is correct. 

Simply pointing out that BB has too many holes in it, paramount the contradiction of a law, to hang your hat on.


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> whats the point in this if you dont beleive in God?



To get along.  To advance society so that our progeny will be advantaged.


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## stringmusic (Oct 4, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> To get along.  To advance society so that our progeny will be advantaged.



agian, whats the point of getting along? whats the point in making anything better for our kids/grandkids. Who cares about society?

where do you get morals from? who tells you what is right and what is wrong?If you say you get them from yourself, then everybody on the face of the earth would have different views and morals on every different situation, nobody should/could get in trouble for anything because their morals were not contridicted in any situation.


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## Sterlo58 (Oct 4, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> whats the point in this if you dont beleive in God?



To live a peaceful existence. Nobody thrives on chaos and violence. You don't have to believe in the bible to live a moral life. That is not so hard to understand. Just because I don't believe in the bible does not make me want to rape, pillage and kill.


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## Sterlo58 (Oct 4, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> agian, whats the point of getting along? whats the point in making anything better for our kids/grandkids. Who cares about society?
> 
> where do you get morals from? who tells you what is right and what is wrong?If you say you get them from yourself, then everybody on the face of the earth would have different views and morals on every different situation, nobody should/could get in trouble for anything because their morals were not contridicted in any situation.



Hey I think the ten commandments are a great set of rules to live by. I don't think they were handed down by god. They are common sense rules that all civilized people in the world could have come up with. It is common sense...not divine inspiration.


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## Gabassmaster (Oct 4, 2010)

your right man...we didnt just show up from the big bang and i know we sure didnt evolve from no monkeys...if that were true we would still see monkeys and other animals evolving all the time..


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> agian, whats the point of getting along? whats the point in making anything better for our kids/grandkids. Who cares about society?



You can find out all these things on your own by Googling "Origins of Morality" but I will give you my own personal synopsis.  People's main motivation is to pass on their genes.  People have a better chance of surviving in groups.  People like to have fun.  Successful societies produce excess resources and allow for leisure time. In order to get along, people need rules.



stringmusic said:


> where do you get morals from? who tells you what is right and what is wrong?



Read some of the different ideas about where morality comes from and we'll discuss it further.



stringmusic said:


> If you say you get them from yourself, then everybody on the face of the earth would have different views and morals on every different situation, nobody should/could get in trouble for anything because their morals were not contridicted in any situation.



I said no such thing.  Feel free to quote me in your response.  

In fact, people do have different moralities; even among people that share a common religion.  Go into any group and start talking about war or welfare or gays.  You will find a whole range of ideas about what right and wrong are.  

Most Western notions of morality come from Christianity.  

Do you know where Christians got their ideas about morality?  Do you know what Zoroastrianism is?  Are you familiar with Greek philosophy?


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> your right man...we didnt just show up from the big bang and i know we sure didnt evolve from no monkeys...if that were true we would still see monkeys and other animals evolving all the time..



Can I quote you for my new signature line?


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## Gabassmaster (Oct 4, 2010)

i dont care lol


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> i dont care lol



Thanx


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## TTom (Oct 4, 2010)

Well lets see Hamurabi's law pre dates the 10 commandments signioficantly.  Guess what other than the God thing the laws are oddly similar.

Murder Wrong in both Sumerian law and the law of Moses.
Theft wrong in both Sumerian law and the law of Moses.

 Seems that multiple societies around the globe have all developed similar laws with vastly different religions.


So the idea that morality can only come from God is fatally flawed when examined without a Judea-Christian bias.

500 years before Moses, Hammurabi's code of law was carved into monuments in Sumeria .

500 years before Jesus the Buddha set forth and recorded many of the ideas that Jesus brought to the Jewish people.

Morals are created whenever people share a set of values.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 4, 2010)

TTom said:


> Well lets see Hamurabi's law pre dates the 10 commandments signioficantly.
> 
> 500 years before Moses, Hammurabi's code of law was carved into monuments in Sumeria .



Bad logic.  That Hammurbi's code of ethics contain some of the same moral concepts as the 10-C does not mean the 10-C were just another copy of his code.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 4, 2010)

TTom said:


> Morals are created whenever people share a set of values.



Does that mean this forum is devoid of morals?!


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## TTom (Oct 4, 2010)

Actually no you took the wrong message from the statement (I'll take responsibility for poor encoding on that)


The idea that Morals can only come from GOD is busted by the example given.

Hammurabi's code proves that many of the same moral values come up around the world even when they don't share YOUR God.

As to the second count yes this forum is devoid of a set of morals. (there are too many conflicting values in this section for sure to say we share a set of morals) But devoid of morals no I would say we have a plethora of sets of morals.


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## mickbear (Oct 4, 2010)

Madman said:


> From the logical argument nothing had to create God.  Only created things need a creator, God is eternal.  As for matter, read Genisis.


how can that be a logical answer to the question "who created god?"but then again no one has come up with a reasonable answer other than "God is eternal" or something to the effect of hes just always been.
  i'm kinda wondering about one thing,dont you think if this god guy has been around for all time don't ya think he (she, it or what ever ) would have shown their self at one time or another?,other than the people in the bible.i mean its been 2000 ,3000 years and still a nothing


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2010)

mickbear said:


> how can that be a logical answer to the question "who created god?"but then again no one has come up with a reasonable answer other than "God is eternal" or something to the effect of hes just always been.
> i'm kinda wondering about one thing,dont you think if this god guy has been around for all time don't ya think he (she, it or what ever ) would have shown their self at one time or another?,other than the people in the bible.i mean its been 2000 ,3000 years and still a nothing



Oh! Oh! Let me answer for them!

He shows himself all the time, in the spots on a trout and in the smile of a child....but, somehow he's not responsible fro conjoined twins or stillborns.

You just don't know how to look.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 4, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Who created the creator?  If the creator could have always been, why couldn't the "stuff" always have been?



ambush, I think we talked about this before. Time isn't only linear, it has depth and width. Remember me not convincing you of this?


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2010)

RoosterTodd said:


> ambush, I think we talked about this before. Time isn't only linear, it has depth and width. Remember me not convincing you of this?



Oh, yeah.  Those theoretical propositions still don't support the existence for or against a creator.

So all the stuff may have always been and never been, at the same time.  Maybe it "was" before God and then "was not" after God at some point or on some location where everything exists, or doesn't..


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 4, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Oh, yeah.  Those theoretical propositions still don't support the existence for or against a creator.
> 
> So all the stuff may have always been and never been, at the same time.  Maybe it "was" before God and then "was not" after God at some point or on some location where everything exists, or doesn't..



Yeah, you're starting to get it.


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2010)

RoosterTodd said:


> Yeah, you're starting to get it.



How does this inform me about civil disobedience?


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## Tim L (Oct 4, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> This is a good question. But better stated it comes down to the immutable law (not theory, or Biblical account, or ancient ritual) of the Conservation of Mass.
> 
> Simply put, mass (and there is a LOT of it in the universe) can not be created or destroyed.  This of course hinges on the universe being a closed system (which it is).  Even if there were alternate universe ad infinitum, the whole would be a closed system.
> 
> ...


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## VisionCasting (Oct 4, 2010)

TTom said:


> Hammurabi's code proves that many of the same moral values come up around the world even when they don't share YOUR God.



Incorrect.  It in no way proves that.

There are plethora other possibilities.  One, for instance, is that God that has long been able to influence the moral code of societies.

Read the entirety of Hammurabi's code.  The Mosaic Code is in no way identical.

PS - Wasn't it on Hammurabi's own epitaph that he was "a man that feared God?"  You are hanging a lot of trust on H, and Egyptologist's interpretation of his life some 4k years later.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 4, 2010)

Rouster said:


> Well this is sort of off topic, but mass and/or energy, that is engulfed by a black hole is destroyed..



Another unproved theory that disputes a law of physics.

Why do people hang so tightly to theories that contradict laws?  I just don't get it.  

Change the law, or get a better theory.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 4, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> How does this inform me about civil disobedience?



Clarify please.


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## Madman (Oct 4, 2010)

mickbear said:


> i'm kinda wondering about one thing,dont you think if this god guy has been around for all time don't ya think he (she, it or what ever ) would have shown their self at one time or another?,other than the people in the bible.i mean its been 2000 ,3000 years and still a nothing



It is amazing how the Bible speaks to the very things I see everyday!!

Here is an example.  

*Luke 16:27-31   "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 

 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 

 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 

 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "*

OR

Matthew 16:1-3   The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. 
 He replied, "When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times.


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## tomtlb66 (Oct 4, 2010)

Hey guys, just wanted to say thank you again for your posts. I cannot say that enough. I know your beliefs and mine are not the same, but I just want you all to know this. I am praying for each and everyone of you and so are many other folks on this forum. All I am asking is that you just respect our beliefs and be kind in your posts. Thats it. Thank you for reading my posts and taking your time to respond.

If I came over in a harsh way I am sorry about that. It was never my intention. If, by some chance anyone of you do feel compelled to send me a pm I would consider it an honor to speak with any of you on anything. You have been respectful and kind in your posts. 

My prayer is this in closing, if you hear that small voice that tells you to give God the chance to change your lives, that you will listen. You have opened your mind to many things in your lives, open your minds and hearts to Jesus. Thank you again and God bless. Tom


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## Tim L (Oct 4, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> Another unproved theory that disputes a law of physics.
> 
> Why do people hang so tightly to theories that contradict laws?  I just don't get it.
> 
> Change the law, or get a better theory.



??????? Please explain....what laws of physics are contradicted by saying that everything that enters a black hole is destroyed..


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## Thanatos (Oct 4, 2010)

Rouster said:


> ??????? Please explain....what laws of physics are contradicted by saying that everything that enters a black hole is destroyed..



It is more like it is trapped and will never, ever escape.


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## Thanatos (Oct 4, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Oh! Oh! Let me answer for them!
> 
> He shows himself all the time, in the spots on a trout and in the smile of a child....but, somehow he's not responsible fro conjoined twins or stillborns.
> 
> You just don't know how to look.



He definitely is responsible for those things above. Every bad thing that happens to you or me is willed by God. No man can change the will of God. He creates and prospers who he wants to prosper and destroys who he wants. Man has free will, but it never trumps God's will. 

This thread is great btw


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## TTom (Oct 4, 2010)

Sorry Vision but your logic fails in the light of any proof not coming form the Christian bias.

First things first strawman arguments will be called on you when you use the poor tactic every time with me.

I never claimed Hammurabi's code was Identical that was your lie.
I said it had many similarities specifically I said

"Seems that multiple societies around the globe have all developed similar laws with vastly different religions."

 to which you replied

"The Mosaic Code is in no way identical."

Similar and Identical are very different words are they not????????????Stick with my argument instead of twisting it to be some argument you want it to be.

Your strawman has been found and burned.

Hammurabi was not a Jew and couldn't be a Christian. He was a Sumerian with the Sumerian pantheon of gods and thus a pagan and your NSWAG (Non scholarly Wild Donkey Guess) completely unsupported by any reference that your God influenced Hammurabi. Hammurabi was only one of many examples of non christian/ non jewish codes and legal sets that do not draw their history to YOUR god. 

The Vedas
The Dharma
Hammurabis code
Code of Ur Nammu (circa 2100 BC)
Roman Law Twelve Tablets (circa 450 BC)
Viking Law
The Tang Code (China circa 650 BC)

All lack your Abrahamic God
and all form a basis for moral codes of conduct within very PAGAN and NOT JEWISH or CHRISTIAN societies.


PS inreply to your PS 

The idea that Hammurabi feared a God he didn't even know about rather than the DOCUMENTED fact that he worshiped Shamash the Sun God and other Sumerian Gods laughable.

Read his Code yourself and then try that idea again

"


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## Achilles Return (Oct 5, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> whats the point in this if you dont beleive in God?



Because being a decent human being is a pretty cool idea?


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## ted_BSR (Oct 5, 2010)

TTom said:


> Sorry Vision but your logic fails in the light of any proof not coming form the Christian bias.
> 
> First things first strawman arguments will be called on you when you use the poor tactic every time with me.
> 
> ...



With proper respect to the originator of this thread, and in the interest of DISCUSSION, multiple societies have developed very different laws that the societies you have mentioned would consider evil and ridiculous.  There are as many examples of societies with an incongruous universal man made code of morality.

Abortion is legal in the United States.  A practice which many societies would and do consider to be egregious, while some find it acceptable.

Add to it polygamy, cannibalism, genocide, and oppression, and we have a pyre on our hands.

Morality is not a product of humans.

Not every person may know the name of the One True God, but He knows everyone one of them, and influences them no matter where their allegiances lie.

P.S. - Your comment about NSWAG shows your childish approach to these matters, your fear, and your lack of understanding.


----------



## ted_BSR (Oct 5, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> Because being a decent human being is a pretty cool idea?



What makes it cool?


----------



## Achilles Return (Oct 5, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> What makes it cool?



I enjoy living in a stable society.


----------



## ted_BSR (Oct 5, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> I enjoy living in a stable society.



God bless America, most people on this planet don't have that luxery.


----------



## VisionCasting (Oct 5, 2010)

TTom said:


> Sorry Vision but your logic fails in the light of any proof not coming form the Christian bias.
> "



<buzzzzzer>   I made no statement of logic.  Merely pointed out the fallacy of your logic.

RE: my "Christian bias"... again, you've not taken the time to understand what i believe.


----------



## VisionCasting (Oct 5, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> God bless America.



Amen.


----------



## TTom (Oct 5, 2010)

ted well I get a little less than cordial when I try the high road and get strawmanned instead of discussion.

Call it childish if you like, I'll consider it you just showing your bias and trying to protect someone.

I guess the fact that she lied about my position being OK with you to be another fine example of christian ethics.

As to the points in your rebuttal, The fact that this that or the other moral code do not reflect your own morals does not change the fact that they are a moral code. Unless we are not using the standard English language definition of moral code? a set of standards by which right conduct is judged within a society.

Yours, mine, Tom's, Dick's or Harry's the moral code does not have to match someone else's to meet the definition of a moral code.


Vision,

How did the burden of proof shift??

Your first statement to me was.

"Bad logic. That Hammurbi's code of ethics contain some of the same moral concepts as the 10-C does not mean the 10-C were just another copy of his code."

OK show me where before your comment I said it was just another copy?

I said they were oddly similar. 
I made two statements of fact
1. Hammurabi's code predates Moses and the 10 C significantly. 
2. 500 years before Moses Hammurabi's code was carved into monuments in Sumeria.

Are either of those two statements in error? Provide proof if you assert they are.

You keep saying They are not "identical" as if I had said they were at some point. Provide one quote from this argument where I said they were identical. otherwise admit to the lie (an intentional deception).


----------



## tomtlb66 (Oct 5, 2010)

I posted here for several reasons. I want to share the great news of Jesus with people who don't believe in Him. I wanted to express my beliefs and not start an argument with anyone. I want to again thank everyone who posted that do not believe the way that I do. 

I am sending this post to all of you and you only. Thank you for being respectful, not posting anything that would start anything that could turn into a ugly debate. You have said your beliefs and stated them clearly. Even though I do not agree with your beliefs, I have to say not one of you were disrespectful with any remarks.

I did not post this for myself or for any other believer, I posted this on your behalf. I felt I needed to. I will continue to pray for each and everyone of you. I do this not of out pride or spite or to point a finger at you. I do not want you to think that at all. Thank you all once again, God bless, Tom


----------



## stringmusic (Oct 5, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> You can find out all these things on your own by Googling "Origins of Morality" but I will give you my own personal synopsis.  People's main motivation is to pass on their genes.  People have a better chance of surviving in groups.  People like to have fun.  Successful societies produce excess resources and allow for leisure time. In order to get along, people need *rules*.
> 
> *where do these rules come from, My main point is that you cant come to one set of morals/rules without something perfect to go by*
> 
> ...



A Chritian should get their morals from the bible/praying/ their relationship with Jesus Christ.no,no


----------



## stringmusic (Oct 5, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> Because being a decent human being is a pretty cool idea?



your going to hang your hat on that?


----------



## mickbear (Oct 5, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Oh! Oh! Let me answer for them!
> 
> He shows himself all the time, in the spots on a trout and in the smile of a child....but, somehow he's not responsible fro conjoined twins or stillborns.
> 
> You just don't know how to look.


in reference to post #43 you called that one dead on didn't you.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 5, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> A Chritian should get their morals from the bible/praying/ their relationship with Jesus Christ.no,no



My morals were shaped by my parents, my society, my culture and my self.  Some of them are the same as Christian values.

Do you believe that people can develop morals without the Christian God?  I imagine you don't.  How do you explain moral behavior by indigenous people in Borneo?


----------



## stringmusic (Oct 5, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> My morals were shaped by my parents, my society, my culture and my self.  Some of them are the same as Christian values.
> 
> *this is what I keep saying, where did your parents get their morals, where did society get theirs, you can try to explain it away but if you  have a concrete set of morals it can only come from a perfect God.
> *
> ...



obviously not, (see above statement). and I'm sure God has made his way around to Borneo by now.


----------



## ted_BSR (Oct 5, 2010)

TTom said:


> ted well I get a little less than cordial when I try the high road and get strawmanned instead of discussion.
> 
> Call it childish if you like, I'll consider it you just showing your bias and trying to protect someone.
> 
> ...



According to Webster, a society does not decide what is moral.  The antonyms and synonyms speak volumes.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/morality

There is an absolute truth about what is right and wrong.  Just because a person or society believes some action is moral does not make it such.

I am not attacking your jots and tittles of identicality, I am disagreeing with you at the basic fundamental level that humans do not decide what is moral. Morality comes from a higher power.

It is too convienant to put morality in the hands of the perpetraitor.

I do not know the person I defended.  I defended them because I think they are right, and you started calling names.


----------



## ted_BSR (Oct 5, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> My morals were shaped by my parents, my society, my culture and my self.  Some of them are the same as Christian values.
> 
> Do you believe that people can develop morals without the Christian God?  I imagine you don't.  How do you explain moral behavior by indigenous people in Borneo?[/QUOTE]
> 
> Where cannabalism is a moral form of burial. Yes, please explain.


----------



## TTom (Oct 6, 2010)

First things first here what was my position on where morals came from again did I claim it came from mankind?

"Seems that multiple societies around the globe have all developed similar laws with vastly different religions."

replied to with

"I am disagreeing with you at the basic fundamental level that humans do not decide what is moral. Morality comes from a higher power." 

Seems you can't stick to arguing my point and substitute some position you want me to have made instead.

My position allows for "Higher Powers" it simply doesn't limit them to the Christian version of a Higher Power.

BTW your Websters link says nothing about a moral having to come from a higher power. The antonyms and synonyms don't limit themselves to a christian bias either.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Oct 6, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> where do you get morals from? who tells you what is right and what is wrong?If you say you get them from yourself, then everybody on the face of the earth would have different views and morals on every different situation, nobody should/could get in trouble for anything because their morals were not contridicted in any situation.



If you're fortunate, you get morals from your parents, family, and other mentors along the way.  That and common sense.  Oh, and everybody does have slightly different values and morals.  Over history certain things (like working hard, not raping children, not murdering at random, it's a long list) have worked out well and advanced clans, villages, tribes, communities, domains, cities, and nations.  I'd like to think that's where mine came from.  Good thing they didn't come from a book with talking snakes, people that live 900 years, conquered women as fair game, a boat with captured apex predators and prey species alike (lions/antelope, cougars/deer), etc.  

Where'd you get your morals and values,stringmusic?


----------



## Achilles Return (Oct 6, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> There is an absolute truth about what is right and wrong.



So is it right or wrong to eat unclean food? Is it right or wrong to work on the Sabbath? To get tattoos? To own slaves? To rape and murder barbarians?

The premise that the morality of the bible is unchanging and absolute is so ridiculous it doesn't garner a response. The morals of our modern society are shaped on the back of enlightenment philosophers. It was only when society became _secular_ did we end kings and slavery while gaining things like universal suffrage and free speech. 

There's a reason we don't burn people at the stake anymore. Figure out why and you'll have your answer on whether or not there is an "absolute morality".


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Oct 6, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> your right man...we didnt just show up from the big bang and i know we sure didnt evolve from no monkeys...if that were true we would still see monkeys and other animals evolving all the time..



I'm trying to understand your post...did you mean to say we would not see monkeys?  Concluding you did mean that, what makes you think this?  Was this like the "gotcha" final line of an awesome e-mail forward one time?

Also what makes you think animals are not currently evolving?


----------



## stringmusic (Oct 6, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> If you're fortunate, you get morals from your parents, family, and other mentors along the way.  That and common sense.  Oh, and everybody does have slightly different values and morals.  Over history certain things (like working hard, not raping children, not murdering at random, it's a long list) have worked out well and advanced clans, villages, tribes, communities, domains, cities, and nations.  I'd like to think that's where mine came from.  Good thing they didn't come from a book with talking snakes, people that live 900 years, conquered women as fair game, a boat with captured apex predators and prey species alike (lions/antelope, cougars/deer), etc.
> 
> Where'd you get your morals and values,stringmusic?



I get my morals from a perfect God. Thats the only place morals can come from. NOBODY can answer the question as to where they get their morals from except from their parents/grandparents/mentors, why can't anybody tell me where those people got their morals from? If you go all the way back to some of the first people on earth what told these people what was right and wrong?What told those people not to steal/kill/lie/cheat and everything else moral. Along time ago if someone was hungry and saw someone else with food they could kill them and take their food, what eventually told people that this is the wrong thing to do?


----------



## stringmusic (Oct 6, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> If you're fortunate, you get morals from your parents, family, and other mentors along the way.  That and common sense.  Oh, and everybody does have slightly different values and morals.  Over history certain things (like *working hard, not raping children, not murdering at random*, it's a long list) *have worked out well *and advanced clans, villages, tribes, communities, domains, cities, and nations.  I'd like to think that's where mine came from.  Good thing they didn't come from a book with talking snakes, people that live 900 years, conquered women as fair game, a boat with captured apex predators and prey species alike (lions/antelope, cougars/deer), etc.
> 
> Where'd you get your morals and values,stringmusic?



why is raping a child a bad thing? Why is murder a bad thing? 


how did they work these things out?


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 6, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> I get my morals from a perfect God. Thats the only place morals can come from. NOBODY can answer the question as to where they get their morals from except from their parents/grandparents/mentors, why can't anybody tell me where those people got their morals from? If you go all the way back to some of the first people on earth what told these people what was right and wrong?What told those people not to steal/kill/lie/cheat and everything else moral. Along time ago if someone was hungry and saw someone else with food they could kill them and take their food, what eventually told people that this is the wrong thing to do?





stringmusic said:


> why is raping a child a bad thing? Why is murder a bad thing?
> 
> 
> how did they work these things out?



Don't be lazy.  Google "Where do morals come from".


----------



## TTom (Oct 6, 2010)

Societies separated by time, distance and language have throughout history developed sets of morals that have a large number of common threads.

Buddha 500 years before Jesus had moral teachings that are very similar to the teachings of Jesus.  (NOT IDENTICAL) but I provided a few examples before. 

The Hindu have moral principles as well, a system of right conduct. Oddly enough it predates the Laws of Moses and is separated by thousands of miles and yet it considers rape and murder to be immoral acts who'd a thunk it?


Socrates, Aristotle and Plato all wrote on morality all were pagan (Greek Pantheon of Gods) and much of what we know of philosophy comes from their work. Much of it influenced the thoughts of the Church as well.

BTW morals are not tested when faced with a choice between good and evil. Morals are tested when faced with a choice between the lesser of evils or the greater of goods.

Only when the choice is difficult and it forces you to examine your heart and rack your soul have you really had your morals tested.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 6, 2010)

TTom said:


> Societies separated by time, distance and language have throughout history developed sets of morals that have a large number of common threads.
> 
> Buddha 500 years before Jesus had moral teachings that are very similar to the teachings of Jesus.  (NOT IDENTICAL) but I provided a few examples before.
> 
> ...



"Yo! Abraham!  This is the lord thy God speaking to you.  No, you're not hallucinating.  Listen, I want you to take your son, tie him up and put him on that altar over there. Now go get your guttin' hook.    Make sure it's reeeal sharp......."


----------



## ted_BSR (Oct 6, 2010)

TTom said:


> First things first here what was my position on where morals came from again did I claim it came from mankind?
> 
> "Seems that multiple societies around the globe have all developed similar laws with vastly different religions."
> replied to with
> ...



So Nazi morality is similar to other moralities? Or Sharia Law, or abortion, or polygamy?  I don't think you are paying attention.

I think your point is, that whatever a culture decides is moral, then it is moral.  If I am wrong, then please clarify.

I never mentioned "Christian" beliefs.


----------



## ted_BSR (Oct 6, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> If you're fortunate, you get morals from your parents, family, and other mentors along the way.  That and common sense.  Oh, and everybody does have slightly different values and morals.  Over history certain things (like working hard, not raping children, not murdering at random, it's a long list) have worked out well and advanced clans, villages, tribes, communities, domains, cities, and nations.  I'd like to think that's where mine came from.  Good thing they didn't come from a book with talking snakes, people that live 900 years, conquered women as fair game, a boat with captured apex predators and prey species alike (lions/antelope, cougars/deer), etc.
> 
> Where'd you get your morals and values,stringmusic?



That doesn't make them correct.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Oct 6, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> That doesn't make them correct.



How firm a grasp do you have on morals and what not?


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Oct 6, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> I get my morals from a perfect God. Thats the only place morals can come from. NOBODY can answer the question as to where they get their morals from except from their parents/grandparents/mentors, why can't anybody tell me where those people got their morals from? If you go all the way back to some of the first people on earth what told these people what was right and wrong?What told those people not to steal/kill/lie/cheat and everything else moral. Along time ago if someone was hungry and saw someone else with food they could kill them and take their food, what eventually told people that this is the wrong thing to do?



I think I phrased it "over history" but "Throughout history" would have worked better.  It was late.  Anyhow, that's where morals have arisen and evolved over time in my opinion....from figuring out what leads to a civil society.  

To answer you last few questions, I don't know, I guess God told them all what they had done was wrong and then sent a bolt of lightning down their loincloths and started famines and locusts and cruel biblical stuff like that and everybody else learned morals from that.  Then they were smited for something else and so on.  Right?


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Oct 6, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> why is raping a child a bad thing?



I'm not comfortable responding online to a person who has to ask such a question.  Consider me done with this thread.


----------



## ted_BSR (Oct 6, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> So is it right or wrong to eat unclean food? Is it right or wrong to work on the Sabbath? To get tattoos? To own slaves? To rape and murder barbarians?
> 
> _I don't pretend to know the answers to these questions._
> 
> ...



I don't mean to attack or belittle you, that is not my intention.  Please don't take it that way.  I intend to carry on a meaningful discussion about the state and source of morality.


----------



## ted_BSR (Oct 6, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> How firm a grasp do you have on morals and what not?



I have beliefs about what is right and wrong.  I will not know if I am right or wrong until I stand before the One True God.


----------



## ted_BSR (Oct 6, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> I'm not comfortable responding online to a person who has to ask such a question.  Consider me done with this thread.



Don't blame you Ham, just ignore it.  I welcome your opinions on other questions.  You have a keen insight into reality.


----------



## ted_BSR (Oct 6, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Don't be lazy.  Google "Where do morals come from".



They don't come from GOOGLE!


----------



## TTom (Oct 7, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> So Nazi morality is similar to other moralities? Or Sharia Law, or abortion, or polygamy?  I don't think you are paying attention.
> 
> I think your point is, that whatever a culture decides is moral, then it is moral.  If I am wrong, then please clarify.
> 
> I never mentioned "Christian" beliefs.



Similar in that it meets the definition of a moral code yes. 
Moral codes can be hugely conflicting just as they can be very similar. Nothing in the definition of moral codes specifies where they can come from.

US Christian morality once protected the practice of slavery. Christian Morality once advocated the burning of witches at the stake, even though their own history had their martyrs dieing that same torturous death.

Now we could argue the merits of various moral codes, we could compare and contrast the moral codes of the modern Sikh and the Wiccan. But what I can't do is negate the existence of moral codes that don't match my own.

Abortion and polygamy are not moral codes in an of themselves they might be issues that are governed by a set of morals, but they are not the moral code itself.


----------



## VisionCasting (Oct 7, 2010)

TTom said:


> Hammurabi's code proves that many of the same moral values come up around the world even when they don't share YOUR God.



@TTom - I never said 'identical'.  I said 'copy'.  Your word were "same moral values".  Same means same.  A copy is the same as the original.

Don't accuse me of deceit or lies when you yourself introduced the word "identical", not me.

If you'd like to make an argument, refute my assertion:  That H's code, even if M code is replete with the "same moral values", does not disprove the existence of God.


----------



## TTom (Oct 7, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> @TTom - I never said 'identical'.  I said 'copy'.  Your word were "same moral values".  Same means same.  A copy is the same as the original.
> 
> Don't accuse me of deceit or lies when you yourself introduced the word "identical", not me.
> 
> If you'd like to make an argument, refute my assertion:  That H's code, even if M code is replete with the "same moral values", does not disprove the existence of God.



OK I'll have to prove you a liar here.

Your Post #40 in this thread.

"Read the entirety of Hammurabi's code. The Mosaic Code is in no way identical."

My words were "...many of the same moral values" not "The same moral values", You seem unable grasp the difference that little bit of context makes.


----------



## earl (Oct 7, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> I have beliefs about what is right and wrong.  I will not know if I am right or wrong until I stand before the One True God.





Great place to figure out you were wrong  !!!!!


Especially if he is a little fat bellied guy .


----------



## TTom (Oct 7, 2010)

earl, well it's a good wager really cause the fat bellied dude will give you as many redo's as you need till you get it right.


----------



## apoint (Oct 7, 2010)

TTom said:


> earl, well it's a good wager really cause the fat bellied dude will give you as many redo's as you need till you get it right.



 But in reality you will die first. Then what?


----------



## TTom (Oct 7, 2010)

A point you really missed the boat there, That humor actually gave your side a slight advantage on the which way to bet idea.

Buddhist dies and finds out Crud I was wrong jealous Jewish/ Christian God, fiery pit here I come.


Christian dies and finds out Wow I was wrong fat boy here says I gotta go back and live another life and try to get it right this time.

Based purely on the gambling risk analysis the wager on a Jewish/ Christian God has less risk.


----------



## apoint (Oct 7, 2010)

TTom said:


> A point you really missed the boat there, That humor actually gave your side a slight advantage on the which way to bet idea.
> 
> Buddhist dies and finds out Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- I was wrong jealous Jewish/ Christian God Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- here I come.
> 
> ...



I guess you have to be a buddist/athiest to get that joke, Sorry.


----------



## VisionCasting (Oct 7, 2010)

TTom said:


> OK I'll have to prove you a liar here.
> 
> Your Post #40 in this thread.
> 
> "Read the entirety of Hammurabi's code. The Mosaic Code is in no way identical."



Point taken.  My error.  I was looking at a different post.  Good thing that to err is human, but to forgive divine   

Yet we are agreed.  H-Code and M-Code are not identical.  

And we are also agreed that H's existance, regardless of it's similarity to M in no way disproves God's existence.  

Good.  So the possibility of God remains, despite H.

Let's put that stake in the ground.


----------



## apoint (Oct 7, 2010)

God and his holy morals were around before the earth was made.


----------



## TTom (Oct 7, 2010)

We have no disagreement in that list.

My point never was to disprove God

I'm a Spiritual Universalist (all paths to God, One God with thousands of names) kinda guy not an atheist.


----------



## VisionCasting (Oct 7, 2010)

TTom said:


> I'm a Spiritual Universalist (all paths to God, One God with thousands of names) kinda guy not an atheist.



That fascinates me.  I'd like to know more.  I talked to a B'hai guy at length once.  As he explained it, that is their take.  

Myself, I don't get it.  I can see being Universalist if you exclude Christ.  But not if you include Him.   Only because of his claim of exclusivity (i.e. Jn 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one  comes to the Father except through me.).

Not  or trying to debate, just wondering how is that reconciled in Universalism?  Is the claim discredited?  Or is Christ?  If Christ, why include him as one of the ways?  Thanks for helping me understand.


----------



## TTom (Oct 7, 2010)

Vision exclusivity claims (and they exist in many religions) are the fly in the universalist ointment.

My basic statement is everyone gets some of it right and everyone gets some of it wrong. Sometimes a religion is set up to fit a certain type of person, the way a school like Julliard is set up to exploit the students talents in the arts. A Julliard education would be wasted on me as my talents lie in other areas, but my education would in turn waste a talent that would flourish at Julliard.

It's part of the nature of being man with a limited ability to understand to begin with and trying to comprehend God, a subject that is HUGE.

I only recently found out about the Bhai Faith religion, I'm still at the very early stage of evaluating the tenants.


----------



## apoint (Oct 7, 2010)

There was not many God's that created all things. 
 It only took one creator to create all things.  If He created all things why would he let someone else take the credit?
 Many Gods theology is nutz.
  God created all things brought all things to life, so its about the creator and His way to salvation. Anything that is not , is not His.


----------



## TTom (Oct 7, 2010)

A Point I know that my beliefs make your head hurt, but lets keep what I said straight. 

One God Many names/ faces is a different idea that Many Gods.

For many of us who believe in One God Many Faces that a Christian cannot grasp the concept makes our heads hurt. Logically One God Many Faces comes from the same thought process that allows for the concept of the Trinity (God the Father one name, God the Son 2nd name God the Holy Spirit 3rd name).


----------



## stringmusic (Oct 7, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> They don't come from GOOGLE!


----------



## apoint (Oct 7, 2010)

TTom said:


> A Point I know that my beliefs make your head hurt, but lets keep what I said straight.
> 
> One God Many names/ faces is a different idea that Many Gods.
> 
> For many of us who believe in One God Many Faces that a Christian cannot grasp the concept makes our heads hurt. Logically One God Many Faces comes from the same thought process that allows for the concept of the Trinity (God the Father one name, God the Son 2nd name God the Holy Spirit 3rd name).



 You believe in many paths to God so you dont believe in my God. As you believe, it does not matter because your still lost.  There is only one path to the Father and thats thru the SON. Thats why I say you believe in many [ other ] Gods, not mine.


----------



## stringmusic (Oct 7, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> I'm not comfortable responding online to a person who has to ask such a question.  Consider me done with this thread.



but you must be comfortable with the murdering thing then?

the only point is, that you have to have a perfect reference point to know why these things are bad, the only reason that your done with this thread is because you knew that raping a child was a bad thing. the only thing to understand is what makes them bad not just that "you know there bad"


----------



## apoint (Oct 7, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> but you must be comfortable with the murdering thing then?
> 
> the only point is, that you have to have a perfect reference point to know why these things are bad, the only reason that your done with this thread is because you knew that raping a child was a bad thing. the only thing to understand is what makes them bad not just that "you know there bad"



Without God there are no boundary's only human emotions to say its wrong and that will vary from person to person.


----------



## stringmusic (Oct 7, 2010)

apoint said:


> *Without God there are no boundary's only human emotions* to say its wrong and that will vary from person to person.



my entire point, because there is a perfect God there is a universal set of morals, and i think after someone gains a relationship with Christ those morals are brought to attention in everything we do.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 7, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> my entire point, because there is a perfect God there is a universal set of morals, and i think after someone gains a relationship with Christ those morals are brought to attention in everything we do.



I know many people that are way more moral than some of the vitriolic Fundamentalist Christians on this website.  (Pssssst....They got their morals from somewhere else than the Bible).


----------



## goob (Oct 7, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> your right man...we didnt just show up from the big bang and i know we sure didnt evolve from no monkeys...if that were true we would still see monkeys and other animals evolving all the time..



thats right.


----------



## earl (Oct 7, 2010)

I have yet to hear where the good Christians think the people of the world who have never heard of the Christian God or Jesus ,who only showed up 2,000years ago , got theirs.


----------



## stringmusic (Oct 7, 2010)

earl said:


> I have yet to hear where the good Christians think the people of the world who have never heard of the Christian God or Jesus ,who only showed up 2,000years ago , got theirs.



It is very selfish/pompas to think that me or you or anybody in America has the chance to hear about God, but others don't get that chance, you don't know that. 

Also God was around more than 2,000 yrs ago.


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## stringmusic (Oct 7, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> I know many people that are way more moral than some of the vitriolic Fundamentalist Christians on this website.  (Pssssst....They got their morals from somewhere else than the Bible).



Just because God created morals, doesnt mean that every Christian is a perfect moralist, Every Christian should be striving to be a perfect moralist. Not everybody who says "Im a Christian" is a Christian. Don't hang your hat on one  or two or ten people that claimed to be a Christian and had no evidence in their lives.

I also never said that people who were not Christian could not be very moral people, being a very moral person ONLY,does not get a person to heaven.

PLEASE tell me how right and wrong doesnt come from something perfect?????


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## mickbear (Oct 7, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> I also never said that people who were not Christian could not be very moral people, being a very moral person ONLY,does not get a person to heaven.


what are the other requirements?


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## stringmusic (Oct 7, 2010)

mickbear said:


> what are the other requirements?



Having a relationship with and excepting Jesus christ into your heart.


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## ambush80 (Oct 7, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> Just because God created morals, doesnt mean that every Christian is a perfect moralist, Every Christian should be striving to be a perfect moralist. Not everybody who says "Im a Christian" is a Christian. Don't hang your hat on one  or two or ten people that claimed to be a Christian and had no evidence in their lives.
> 
> I also never said that people who were not Christian could not be very moral people, being a very moral person ONLY,does not get a person to heaven.



I don't care about Heaven because I don't believe in it.



stringmusic said:


> PLEASE tell me how right and wrong doesnt come from something perfect?????



Right and wrong are constructs.  Even the guys that wrote the Bible knew that.  That's why they gave examples of when rules can be broken.


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## earl (Oct 7, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> It is very selfish/pompas to think that me or you or anybody in America has the chance to hear about God, but others don't get that chance, you don't know that.
> 
> Also God was around more than 2,000 yrs ago.





No ,Jesus was around for 2.000 years. Those folks outside the influence of middle east were sent faxes.


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## stringmusic (Oct 7, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> I don't care about Heaven because I don't believe in it.
> 
> 
> 
> Right and wrong are constructs.  Even the guys that wrote the Bible knew that.  That's why they gave examples of when rules can be broken.



First off I'm sorry that you don't believe in Heaven, I already knew that but I would like you to be there when you die.

As for morals being contructs, I think that theory might work in running a business, or building a city or something like that but not right and wrong. You must have something concrete to look to, to be able to tell right from wrong, it wasn't trial and error.


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## earl (Oct 7, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> Just because God created morals, doesnt mean that every Christian is a perfect moralist, Every Christian should be striving to be a perfect moralist. Not everybody who says "Im a Christian" is a Christian. Don't hang your hat on one  or two or ten people that claimed to be a Christian and had no evidence in their lives.
> 
> I also never said that people who were not Christian could not be very moral people, being a very moral person ONLY,does not get a person to heaven.
> 
> PLEASE tell me how right and wrong doesnt come from something perfect?????





Is it moral to shoot an animal and leave it to rot ? Deer ,cows ,pigs, coyotes ?  Gets slippery REAL fast depending on whether you are a bunny hugger ,a hunter , a farmer ,or a realist .  Each creature perfect in the way it was made .


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## stringmusic (Oct 7, 2010)

earl said:


> No ,Jesus was around for 2.000 years. Those folks outside the influence of middle east were sent faxes.



I am a believer and I recieved one of those faxes


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## ted_BSR (Oct 7, 2010)

TTom said:


> Similar in that it meets the definition of a moral code yes.
> Moral codes can be hugely conflicting just as they can be very similar. Nothing in the definition of moral codes specifies where they can come from.
> 
> US Christian morality once protected the practice of slavery. Christian Morality once advocated the burning of witches at the stake, even though their own history had their martyrs dieing that same torturous death.
> ...



I am not talking about a "moral code".  What we humans think morality is doesn't mean squat.

THERE IS AN ABSOUTE MORALITY ESTABLISHED BY A HIGHER POWER. IT DOES NOT COME FROM US.

That is my point.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 7, 2010)

earl said:


> Great place to figure out you were wrong  !!!!!
> 
> 
> Especially if he is a little fat bellied guy .



The little fat bellied guy never claimed to be God, or that I would have to stand before him and answer for my deeds in life.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 7, 2010)

apoint said:


> But in reality you will die first. Then what?



Not to sure, but it is inevitable for all of us. I don't really worry about dying, I just hope it is not slow and drawn out.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 7, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> my entire point, because there is a perfect God there is a universal set of morals, and i think after someone gains a relationship with Christ those morals are brought to attention in everything we do.



Yes, and those morals are inately apparant to those who deny God also.  You can't escape the absolute truth.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 7, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> I know many people that are way more moral than some of the vitriolic Fundamentalist Christians on this website.  (Pssssst....They got their morals from somewhere else than the Bible).



There are vitriolic people in every walk of life. There are kind people in every walk of life.  Why do you hate Christians so much?


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## ted_BSR (Oct 7, 2010)

earl said:


> I have yet to hear where the good Christians think the people of the world who have never heard of the Christian God or Jesus ,who only showed up 2,000years ago , got theirs.



From: http://www.theologicalstudies.org/page/page/1572381.htm
A website you will no doubt derive great pleasure from bashing.

1. Nature  God has revealed certain truths about Himself through nature or the created order. Psalm 19:1-6 states, “The heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.” Nature tells everyone about God’s glory and that everything is made by Him. Romans 1:18-21 declares, “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” According to this text, nature reveals that God exists and that He is powerful. This testimony is so powerful that no person can claim that he or she knows nothing about God.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 7, 2010)

mickbear said:


> what are the other requirements?



There is only 1 requirement.  It doesn't include living a moral life, however, when you fullfill this 1 requirement, you will be complelled to do so, because, you don't get figs from an apple tree.

The 1 requirement is to accept the gift of Salvation that God provided with the death and resseruction of his son.  His atonement for our sins is this wonderful gift.  There is no cost, just believe.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 7, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> I don't care about Heaven because I don't believe in it.
> 
> 
> 
> Right and wrong are constructs.  Even the guys that wrote the Bible knew that.  That's why they gave examples of when rules can be broken.



Which Bible did you read that in?


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## ted_BSR (Oct 7, 2010)

earl said:


> No ,Jesus was around for 2.000 years. Those folks outside the influence of middle east were sent faxes.



Jesus was on earth for 33 years, God has always existed, and always will exist.


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## TTom (Oct 7, 2010)

Because they are as a rule holier than thou hyppocrites, who have use Christ to justify murder, rape, pillage, genocide, destruction of entire cultures, tortures, and slavery all while claiming a pure source of morals.

 in short because as Ghandi said 

I Like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 7, 2010)

TTom said:


> Because they are as a rule holier than thou hyppocrites, who have use Christ to justify murder, rape, pillage, genocide, destruction of entire cultures, tortures, and slavery all while claiming a pure source of morals.
> 
> in short because as Ghandi said
> 
> I Like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.



I assume this is a response to post #119.  I make no excuses for the short comings of people.  Ask a Hindu how they feel about Ghandi.  Not much love there either.


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## TTom (Oct 7, 2010)

As to your One True Source of a universal set of morals.

Impasse. 

We could type back and forth in all caps and increasing font size until we see one letter per page and your position is always going to read as false to me, and mine the same to you.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 7, 2010)

TTom said:


> As to your One True Source of a universal set of morals.
> 
> Impasse.
> 
> We could type back and forth in all caps and increasing font size until we see one letter per page and your position is always going to read as false to me, and mine the same to you.



Agree to diagree then.  Sorry for yelling, but you weren't getting my point.

But I persist, one of us is wrong.


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## TTom (Oct 7, 2010)

We agree. One of us is wrong.

We disagree on who that is.

You felt I was ignoring your point. I was not I was disagreeing with your thought process used to get to that point.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 7, 2010)

TTom said:


> We agree. One of us is wrong.
> 
> We disagree on who that is.
> 
> You felt I was ignoring your point. I was not I was disagreeing with your thought process used to get to that point.



By all means, you are entitled to do that.


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## earl (Oct 7, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> Yes, and those morals are inately apparant to those who deny God also.  You can't escape the absolute truth.





And what would that be ?


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## ted_BSR (Oct 7, 2010)

earl said:


> And what would that be ?



The absolute measure of what is right and wrong.  I don't pretend to be bright enough to know the specifics, but I believe it exists.


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## ambush80 (Oct 7, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> There are vitriolic people in every walk of life. There are kind people in every walk of life.  Why do you hate Christians so much?



I don't hate Christians.  I'm often annoyed by them. probably because they are in my face so much, living where I live and all.


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## dexrusjak (Oct 7, 2010)

Christians, is murdering innocent children morally wrong, according to your perfect god?


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## ted_BSR (Oct 7, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Christians, is murdering innocent children morally wrong, according to your perfect god?



The answer to that seems fairly obvious.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 7, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Christians, is murdering innocent children morally wrong, according to your perfect god?



Hold the phone.

What is your basis for innocence?  Would you argue that morality is relative (contrived by man/societal norms/morays) then yourself assign a label of innocence?

You can't have it both ways.

Strawman ID'd and 

If you want to ask a serious question, do so.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 7, 2010)

earl said:


> ... or Jesus ,who only showed up 2,000years ago



If your statement implies that He didn't exist before His human birth to Mary, then your statement is inconsistent with Christian doctrine.  According to the Bible He pre-dates creation.  Just an FYI.


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## earl (Oct 8, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> The absolute measure of what is right and wrong.  I don't pretend to be bright enough to know the specifics, but I believe it exists.



Believing and being able to  articulate or prove are miles apart .


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## earl (Oct 8, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> If your statement implies that He didn't exist before His human birth to Mary, then your statement is inconsistent with Christian doctrine.  According to the Bible He pre-dates creation.  Just an FYI.





Duhhhhhhhhhhhhh


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## VisionCasting (Oct 8, 2010)

earl said:


> Duhhhhhhhhhhhhh



A well thought out, eloquent statement.  

In fact, this isn't universally understood. 

John1:1 - 5  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.


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## dexrusjak (Oct 8, 2010)

Ok. I'll try again. Christians, according to your perfect god, is it immoral to kill a child?


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## earl (Oct 8, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> A well thought out, eloquent statement.
> 
> In fact, this isn't universally understood.
> 
> John1:1 - 5  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.





If you can'y quote Homer , who you gonna quote ? 

You do realize that every religion has some type of creation story . All equally believable or nonbelieveable  as you choose .

Just curious ,how far back does Christianity go in your family ?


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## ted_BSR (Oct 8, 2010)

earl said:


> Believing and being able to  articulate or prove are miles apart .



I believe I articulated it in all caps in post#115.

Earl, no one can prove anything.  It is not possible.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 8, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Ok. I'll try again. Christians, according to your perfect god, is it immoral to kill a child?



Same answer, it seems fairly obvious.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 8, 2010)

earl said:


> Just curious ,how far back does Christianity go in your family ?



Just about 2000 years.  I've been grafted into a family of Kings.    The same offer is available to anyone.  

Mark 3:31-35  Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you." "Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."


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## earl (Oct 8, 2010)

Avoidance .


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## dexrusjak (Oct 8, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> Same answer, it seems fairly obvious.



Since I don't know you, I don't know what that obvious answer is.  Is it immoral, according to you perfect god, to kill children?  Yes or no?


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## VisionCasting (Oct 8, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Since I don't know you, I don't know what that obvious answer is.  Is it immoral, according to you perfect god, to kill children?  Yes or no?



You are trying to set a trap here.  But I will play.  Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."  Doesn't matter if it's a child or not.

Now, the purpose of the Law isn't to establish "moral" and "immoral" buckets so that we can know how to act.  The purpose of the Law is to demonstrate that we are separated from God and in need of a Savior.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 8, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Since I don't know you, I don't know what that obvious answer is.  Is it immoral, according to you perfect god, to kill children?  Yes or no?



Dang, you are stubborn, and if you do not know the obvious answer here, I will not converse with you further.


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## apoint (Oct 8, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Ok. I'll try again. Christians, according to your perfect god, is it immoral to kill a child?



 depends on your definition of child. depends if it inhaled.
depends what definitio is used on is.


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## apoint (Oct 8, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> Dang, you are stubborn, and if you do not know the obvious answer here, I will not converse with you further.


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## Achilles Return (Oct 9, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> The absolute measure of what is right and wrong.  I don't pretend to be bright enough to know the specifics, but I believe it exists.



Remember that time God said not to eat unclean food, and then didn't? Or when he condoned slavery, and then didn't? How about when we burned witches at the stake - and then didn't? How _absolute_ of him. 

Your morality is no more based on the bible than mine is.


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## dexrusjak (Oct 9, 2010)

Apparently there is some confusion on whether or not it is immoral (from a Christian point of view) to kill children.  I understand why.  The Bible is full of contradictions on a myriad of topics, including this one.  I mean, in one place, god commands "his" people not to kill, yet in another "he" commands his people to wipe out entire cities -- men, women, and children.  In other places, god does the dirty work "himself" killing hundreds and thousands of children. 

With all this confusion and contradiction, it really is no wonder that you, Christian, don't know whether or not it is immoral to kill children.  Try using your common sense.  I think if you do, you will find that killing children is very immoral (despite what the Bible teaches).  

So if not killing children is a murky area of Biblical teachings on morality, exactly what moral teachings do you glean from the Bible that I, an atheist, could not find elsewhere?


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## ted_BSR (Oct 9, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> Remember that time God said not to eat unclean food, and then didn't? Or when he condoned slavery, and then didn't? How about when we burned witches at the stake - and then didn't? How _absolute_ of him.
> 
> Your morality is no more based on the bible than mine is.



I never mentioned the Bible.  After 153 posts, I am pretty sure I am done with this.  It is time to hunt deer.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 9, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Apparently there is some confusion on whether or not it is immoral (from a Christian point of view) to kill children.  I understand why.  The Bible is full of contradictions on a myriad of topics, including this one.  I mean, in one place, god commands "his" people not to kill, yet in another "he" commands his people to wipe out entire cities -- men, women, and children.  In other places, god does the dirty work "himself" killing hundreds and thousands of children.
> 
> With all this confusion and contradiction, it really is no wonder that you, Christian, don't know whether or not it is immoral to kill children.  Try using your common sense.  I think if you do, you will find that killing children is very immoral (despite what the Bible teaches).
> 
> So if not killing children is a murky area of Biblical teachings on morality, exactly what moral teachings do you glean from the Bible that I, an atheist, could not find elsewhere?



See post 153, Thank you, and good night.


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## Achilles Return (Oct 10, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> I never mentioned the Bible.  After 153 posts, I am pretty sure I am done with this.  It is time to hunt deer.



Your retreat from this topic is pretty telling.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 10, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> Your retreat from this topic is pretty telling.



My retreat from this thread is telling of the fact that I have better things to do than agrue with people who are as stubborn as me.

Your comment about it being telling is telling.  And I am telling you, that you are wrong.

If you post on the deerhunting thread, I'll see you there.
BTW, I saw 6 deer on Sat, had a shot at one, and missed.  I usually don't miss, but that is why they call it hunting.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 14, 2010)

I've just finished reading thru all the post in this thread. I will like to point out but also put to rest with no debate cause enough is enough that "morals" have nothing to do with this conversation. I'm a believer [Jesus is the Christ, son of the living God] and yet when Christians imply that only Christians have morals, that makes my stomach turn. This mentallity is evident. It's a major turnoff


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## ted_BSR (Oct 15, 2010)

1gr8bldr said:


> I've just finished reading thru all the post in this thread. I will like to point out but also put to rest with no debate cause enough is enough that "morals" have nothing to do with this conversation. I'm a believer [Jesus is the Christ, son of the living God] and yet when Christians imply that only Christians have morals, that makes my stomach turn. This mentallity is evident. It's a major turnoff



Every one has morals, not everyone knows where they come from.


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## davidstaples (Oct 19, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> Every one has morals, not everyone knows where they come from.



Yep... some people falsely believe they come from the Bible.  To make that assertion is to say that before the Bible existed nobody had any morals whatsoever.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 19, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Yep... some people falsely believe they come from the Bible.  To make that assertion is to say that before the Bible existed nobody had any morals whatsoever.



Right.  We agree.  They don't come from the Bible.  They come from God.  

Issue settled.


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## stringmusic (Oct 19, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> Right.  We agree.  They don't come from the Bible.  They come from God.
> 
> Issue settled.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 20, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> Right.  We agree.  They don't come from the Bible.  They come from God.
> 
> Issue settled.



Yes, that is correct.


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## Achilles Return (Oct 21, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> Right.  We agree.  They don't come from the Bible.  They come from God.
> 
> Issue settled.



Prove it.


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## davidstaples (Oct 21, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> Right.  We agree.  They don't come from the Bible.  They come from God.
> 
> Issue settled.



So in the days of the Greeks' belief in Zeus, did they get their morals from Zeus or some other god they didn't believe in?


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## stringmusic (Oct 21, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> So in the days of the Greeks' belief in Zeus, did they get their morals from Zeus or some other god they didn't believe in?



Have you been reading up on your greek history, this is the second post today about zeus. 

And yes, they did get their morals from the God they didnt believe in. Why do you use other people and cultures believing in others  gods to hinder you from believing in the God?


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## davidstaples (Oct 21, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> Have you been reading up on your greek history, this is the second post today about zeus.
> 
> And yes, they did get their morals from the God they didnt believe in. Why do you use other people and cultures believing in others  gods to hinder you from believing in the God?



Nope, an article I was reading earlier mentioned Zeus, so the topic just carried over into these forums.

You might think they got their morals from a god they didn't believe in, in which case I guess it's fine for some of us to believe that you get your morals from Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.  After all, I've seen both of them at department stores previously... I'm *SURE* they're real.


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## stringmusic (Oct 21, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Nope, an article I was reading earlier mentioned Zeus, so the topic just carried over into these forums.
> 
> You might think they got their morals from *1.a god *they didn't believe in, in which case *2.I guess it's fine for some of us to believe that you get your morals from Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.*  After all, I've seen both of them at department stores previously... I'm *SURE* they're real.



nope and nope.
1. not a god, the God
2.see #1


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## davidstaples (Oct 21, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> nope and nope.
> 1. not a god, the God
> 2.see #1



1. Your argument is based on the assumption that I believe your god - "God" - exists.  I don't.
2.  See #1





> And yes, they did get their morals from the God they didnt believe in.



Furthermore, if you don't believe they got their morals from a god they didn't believe in, why did you say you do?


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## stringmusic (Oct 21, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> 1. Your argument is based on the assumption that I believe your god - "God" - exists.  I don't.
> 2.  See #1



YOU dont have to believe in God for him to be real.



Furthermore, if you *don't* believe they got their morals from a god they didn't believe in, why did you say you do?[/QUOTE]

did


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## ted_BSR (Oct 21, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> Prove it.



*Prove that they don't.*

Dang, I can't believe I got sucked back into this thread.  If it weren't for work, I would be miles from a computer right now.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 21, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> 1. Your argument is based on the assumption that I believe your god - "God" - exists.  I don't.
> 2.  See #1
> 
> 
> ...



Nope, it is based on the fact that the one true God knows that you exist.


----------

