# At the conception and birth of Christ...



## StriperAddict (Dec 3, 2012)

A good read on Christ's coming:


At the conception and birth of Christ, the Holy Spirit again displayed His power. The Bible teaches that Christ was an unembodied spirit in eternity past, for He was in the form of God (Philippians 2:6), and God is a Spirit (John 4:24). However, one of the members of the Trinity had to become embodied because God had decreed in the councils of eternity that the blood . . . maketh an atonement for the soul (Leviticus 17:11). Animal blood was only an inadequate temporary covering looking toward the planned, prepared, permanent sacrifice (I Peter 1:20). This eternal offering also had to be a sacrifice of blood. Man's blood was already poisoned through Adam's transgression (Romans 5:12). Therefore, since animal blood was inadequate and man's blood was tainted, the only solution was that a member of the Godhead should take a body containing blood. However, if this One were to come into the world through natural generation, the seed of a man deposited into the womb of a woman, the tainted blood would then be passed on to the newborn Christ. Thus God planned and prepared a body for His Son (Hebrews 10:5), which the Holy Spirit miraculously placed in the womb of the virgin, and the result was the incarnation -God in the flesh, with sinless blood. That is why I Peter 1:19 declares that we are redeemed with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

Perhaps this information may help some seeking soul see why the entire program of redemption and salvation stands or falls upon the foundation of the virgin birth. The blessed, all-powerful Holy Spirit was the agent in carrying out this miracle of the ages. The story is unfolded in Luke chapter one. The angel appears to Mary and says: . . . thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. Mary, in her astonished frame of mind, replies: "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?" The word know in Scripture often refers to the sex act. For instance, Genesis 4:1 says: And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived . . . . So Mary is actually saying, "How shall I have a child when I have never known a man intimately?" The angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God (verse 35). 


From:
Jack Van Impe Ministries International Newsletter
November 26, 2012

-----


Merry Christmas, indeed!


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Dec 3, 2012)

Explain how the Holy Spirit came upon Mary yet he was not the Father? And the typical "well the HS is the same as the father will not work because in turn you can not say that the Son is the Father. What a mess


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Dec 3, 2012)

Jesus was preexistant in word only. Spoken of, promised from the beginning of time. The subjects of the NT revealed this expectation from God's word, the scriptures foretold the future coming of this event. When times set by God reached fullfillment, Jesus was born, The word became flesh, or as John puts it elsewhere, "the life appeared"


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2012)

How does  Philippians 2:6 show Jesus was pre-existant? I believe he was but just wondered how this verse proves that. If Jesus was a lesser God than God, how does Jesus being the God work out? Was the pre-existant Jesus Spirit the Son of God at that time or just a lesser spirit?
Was Mary Jesus' real mother or a surrogate mother? If a real mother, why didn't Jesus inherit sin from his mother?


----------



## Ronnie T (Dec 3, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> A good read on Christ's coming:
> 
> 
> At the conception and birth of Christ, the Holy Spirit again displayed His power. The Bible teaches that Christ was an unembodied spirit in eternity past, for He was in the form of God (Philippians 2:6), and God is a Spirit (John 4:24). However, one of the members of the Trinity had to become embodied because God had decreed in the councils of eternity that the blood . . . maketh an atonement for the soul (Leviticus 17:11). Animal blood was only an inadequate temporary covering looking toward the planned, prepared, permanent sacrifice (I Peter 1:20). This eternal offering also had to be a sacrifice of blood. Man's blood was already poisoned through Adam's transgression (Romans 5:12). Therefore, since animal blood was inadequate and man's blood was tainted, the only solution was that a member of the Godhead should take a body containing blood. However, if this One were to come into the world through natural generation, the seed of a man deposited into the womb of a woman, the tainted blood would then be passed on to the newborn Christ. Thus God planned and prepared a body for His Son (Hebrews 10:5), which the Holy Spirit miraculously placed in the womb of the virgin, and the result was the incarnation -God in the flesh, with sinless blood. That is why I Peter 1:19 declares that we are redeemed with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
> ...



The precious blood of our Savior.   Amen.

.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2012)

Where has this concept of tainted blood come from? Romans 5:12 says nothing of tainted blood. Jesus had human blood from the same bloodline as Adam. Blood does not carry sin.

"Would you be free from the burden of sin?
There's power in the blood.
The power in Jesus' blood is because he shed it. God is a spirit. Spirits don't have blood. God gave Adam the breath of life.
Please read the link below for better guidance.
The author of this is a Universalist. I don't care, I believe he got this part right.
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/bloodchrst.html


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2012)

Adamic blood is corrupt and was carried by Mary, who declared that Jesus her Son was "God my Saviour" (Luke 1:47). Mary was the chosen carrier of the body of her Son, but all the Blood came from God. I do not know how many categories of human blood have been catalogued by medical science, but I do know that the "Blood type" of the Lord Jesus Christ was entirely different. The Blood that flowed in His veins was perfect, for it was not contaminated by Adam's sin which brought sin and sickness into human blood. 

http://www.aggressivechristianity.net/articles/blood2.htm

This guy says Jesus didn't have any human blood.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 4, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Adamic blood is corrupt and was carried by Mary, who declared that Jesus her Son was "God my Saviour" (Luke 1:47). Mary was the chosen carrier of the body of her Son, but all the Blood came from God. I do not know how many categories of human blood have been catalogued by medical science, but I do know that the "Blood type" of the Lord Jesus Christ was entirely different. The Blood that flowed in His veins was perfect, for it was not contaminated by Adam's sin which brought sin and sickness into human blood.
> 
> http://www.aggressivechristianity.net/articles/blood2.htm
> 
> This guy says Jesus didn't have any human blood.



If there were any basis for these ideas, they would negate the basis for my understanding of Christ's mission.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2012)

Maybe in the "days of old" blood was thought to be the genetic carrier of what we would inherit from our parents and the heart was thought to be like our brain. Sayings like "I love you with all my heart" and "he comes from a good bloodline". 
You don't inherit anything from blood any more than you would inherit anything from spinal fluid.


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 4, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> This guy says Jesus didn't have any human blood.



"This guy" has more than a few issues.


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 4, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> You don't inherit anything from blood any more than you would inherit anything from spinal fluid.


 
You inherited the remission/forgiveness of your sins.  All of 'em.
*Hebrews 9:22*
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without *shedding* of blood there is no forgiveness.

Hebrews Ch 9 is a good backdrop to your concern(s), Art. Here is a synopsis of it:

<SUP class=versenum>11 </SUP>But when Christ appeared _as_ a <SUP class=crossreference value='(AF)'></SUP>high priest of the <SUP class=crossreference value='(AG)'></SUP>good things <SUP class=footnote value='[k]'></SUP>to come, _He entered_ through <SUP class=crossreference value='(AH)'></SUP>the greater and more perfect <SUP class=footnote value='[l]'></SUP>tabernacle, <SUP class=crossreference value='(AI)'></SUP>not made with hands, that is to say, <SUP class=crossreference value='(AJ)'></SUP>not of this creation; 
<SUP class=versenum>12 </SUP>and not through <SUP class=crossreference value='(AK)'></SUP>the blood of goats and calves, but <SUP class=crossreference value='(AL)'></SUP>through His own blood, He <SUP class=crossreference value='(AM)'></SUP>entered the holy place <SUP class=crossreference value='(AN)'></SUP>once for all, <SUP class=footnote value='[m]'></SUP>having obtained <SUP class=crossreference value='(AO)'></SUP>eternal redemption. 
<SUP class=versenum>13 </SUP>For if <SUP class=crossreference value='(AP)'></SUP>the blood of goats and bulls and <SUP class=crossreference value='(AQ)'></SUP>the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the <SUP class=footnote value='[n]'></SUP>cleansing of the flesh, 
<SUP class=versenum>14 </SUP>how much more will <SUP class=crossreference value='(AR)'></SUP>the blood of Christ, who through <SUP class=footnote value='[o]'></SUP><SUP class=crossreference value='(AS)'></SUP>the eternal Spirit <SUP class=crossreference value='(AT)'></SUP>offered Himself without blemish to God, <SUP class=crossreference value='(AU)'></SUP>cleanse <SUP class=footnote value='[p]'></SUP>your conscience from <SUP class=crossreference value='(AV)'></SUP>dead works to serve <SUP class=crossreference value='(AW)'></SUP>the living God?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> You inherited the remission/forgiveness of your sins.  All of 'em.
> *Hebrews 9:22*
> And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without *shedding* of blood there is no forgiveness.



I agree with the scriptures you referenced. It's all base on the cleansing power of Jesus' shed blood. That's the power in the blood of Jesus.


----------



## barryl (Dec 4, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> You inherited the remission/forgiveness of your sins.  All of 'em.
> *Hebrews 9:22*
> And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without *shedding* of blood there is no forgiveness.
> 
> ...


Thanks Striper, brought to mind a 2 of the "tion's" Salva"tion" doctrine words, "propitiation", "sanctification"


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 6, 2012)

Did you ever notice that folk are forgiven their sins after they chose Jesus as their saviour? and not because he shed his blood! but because they chose the Saviour.

Now true that Jesus died for the shedding of his blood. And what was left....? Resurection, redemtion, which was there all along even as Jesus lived with his blood. That sheding of blood showed the Holy Spirit up and out and from this time out... there was no confusion as to what pilgrims chose in Christ Jesus.

One thing that has always facinated me about Mary the mother of God ( the word-Logos made flesh, is her spiritual life and the spiritual life of the folk her family worshiped with ( John the Baptist and his family)--her relatives. The accounts of their interactions is more than fascinating it is inspireing in itself.  These were no ordinary Jews. They were what we would call today, spirit filled folk...( not exactly religious ho-hums) and they were this in a big big way.

So what I get is that with the shedding of Jesus' blood, God shows to man and renues in his understanding what man is and what is his relationship to God. The shedding of the blood points to these two things and these two things are man's salvation. When all is said and done man is a spirit. Man is spiritual. And his spirituality for now must cleave to God's justice as per our Lord Jesus Christ,  Our Shepard.

Now what can the virgin birth mean to men and women of the spirit and what can it mean to men and women who continue with one foot on the cross and one foot in the flesh? for they have not fully died in Christ? I'm trusting God on this one...and it is not for me to fanthom. In good time God's will will be done.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 23, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Now what can the virgin birth mean to men and women of the spirit and what can it mean to men and women who continue with one foot on the cross and one foot in the flesh? for they have not fully died in Christ? I'm trusting God on this one...and it is not for me to fanthom. In good time God's will will be done.



I agree.

Trust and obey.

Thank you God for your Son, Jesus. The best gift the world has ever known.


----------



## Lowjack (Dec 25, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Adamic blood is corrupt and was carried by Mary, who declared that Jesus her Son was "God my Saviour" (Luke 1:47). Mary was the chosen carrier of the body of her Son, but all the Blood came from God. I do not know how many categories of human blood have been catalogued by medical science, but I do know that the "Blood type" of the Lord Jesus Christ was entirely different. The Blood that flowed in His veins was perfect, for it was not contaminated by Adam's sin which brought sin and sickness into human blood.
> 
> http://www.aggressivechristianity.net/articles/blood2.htm
> 
> This guy says Jesus didn't have any human blood.



You are all assuming That Yeshua's body was formed from Mary's DNA , yet the NT and the Tenack hint his body was prepared even before Adam's body was created,
Hebrews 10;5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me
Psalms 139;15  My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.

He was a special creation in Body with no sinful DNA , Mary was the incubator that kept him for 9 months,He was before anyone was.

Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
Psalm 139;6
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; Colossians 1;15


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 25, 2012)

Lowjack said:


> He was a special creation in Body with no sinful DNA , Mary was the incubator that kept him for 9 months,



Biologically correct, but "incubator" is a little clinical for my tastes.  I prefer the traditional "Theotokos".


----------



## Lowjack (Dec 25, 2012)

Just a simple example so neofites can understand


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 25, 2012)

Lowjack said:


> Just a simple example so neofites can understand


----------



## Lowjack (Dec 25, 2012)

We must learn to distinguish between his Spiritual existance and his bodily existance.

We also must learn the title god( elohim) in Hebrew is applied to anyone in power, King David was elohim , Moses was elohim, also Adonai( Lord) is applied both to man and God.

Yeshua is the son of God , or Benai elohim so he is God in that sense , he was exalted after the resurrection in body form above all names (except the Father) and all must bow to his position as Adonai of this creation and Maleck (King) of this creation.
So he is God(elohim) in that sense also , he was in creation with the father and created all teh visible and invisible things ,so he is creator and Father of this creation. But he wants all Glory to be given to Abba Eloi (God the Father)is that a little clearer ?
It is written at the end of all things , "he will surrender this creation back to the father and one will be his name".


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 25, 2012)

Lowjack said:


> You are all assuming That Yeshua's body was formed from Mary's DNA , yet the NT and the Tenack hint his body was prepared even before Adam's body was created,
> Hebrews 10;5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me
> Psalms 139;15  My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
> 
> ...



I believe Jesus was 100% human, with a real dna giving mother.


----------



## Lowjack (Dec 25, 2012)

Well I don't believe he had anyones DNA but his own , sin is passed from the Father's DNA , According to Judaism , so Mary had the DNA of her sinful father.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 25, 2012)

Lowjack said:


> It is written at the end of all things , "he will surrender this creation back to the father and one will be his name".



This touches on something I've been thinking about.  Can you give me a source for some reading on it?  If it go back to 1 Cor. 15:28, I don't have anything that translates it this way. Thanks


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 25, 2012)

Lowjack said:


> We must learn to distinguish between his Spiritual existance and his bodily existance.
> 
> We also must learn the title god( elohim) in Hebrew is applied to anyone in power, King David was elohim , Moses was elohim, also Adonai( Lord) is applied both to man and God.
> 
> ...



Very helpful,
Thanks


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 26, 2012)

A few things to ponder. Jesus was a biological descendant of David.
If sin is passed only through the father then Jesus wouldn't inherit sin from his mom.
We are born into sin or with a nature to sin, but are we born sinners?
In Luke, Mary was told she would conceive in her womb. I'm not sure what word conceive was translated from.
How could Jesus be a God/human if he didn't have at least one biological human parent?


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 26, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> A few things to ponder. Jesus was a biological descendant of David.
> If sin is passed only through the father then Jesus wouldn't inherit sin from his mom.
> We are born into sin or with a nature to sin, but are we born sinners?
> In Luke, Mary was told she would conceive in her womb. I'm not sure what word conceive was translated from.
> How could Jesus me a God/human if he didn't have at least one biological human parent?





Ever consider why people, human beings have babies? Or why they Want babies, families etc.... What need(s) do people have?

Now imagine someone being told they were going to concieve not for the usual reasons, their needs and wants, (especially a young dreamy women), but by faith because and according to God's will? It is difficult to put one's head around this, but we perhaps could try.


----------

