# Scopes on Muzzleloaders ??



## Just 1 More (Jan 23, 2006)

Will this year be the year it gets approved? 

(just figured we could fight about something else for a while)


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## Possum (Jan 23, 2006)

but I want to fight about black panthers


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## Thunder Head (Jan 23, 2006)

Who knows???? I am torn about this one. On one hand i think it should be a short range sport if it is going to be called primitive. On the other hand my friend who is in his 50s has trouble with open sights because of his eye sight. He is realy not accurate enough past 50 yards to be shooting at a deer with his smoke pole.


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## Randy (Jan 23, 2006)

Thunder Head said:
			
		

> He is realy not accurate enough past 50 yards to be shooting at a deer with his smoke pole.



So why not limit his shots to 50 yards?  I am not accurate past 40 with my bow.  So that is my limit.


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## Possum (Jan 23, 2006)

To answer the question..... I dont know and dont care. Scopes do not increase effective yardage...... I will continue to hunt with iron sights and I dont mind if people put scopes on theirs......... there is nothing primitive about in-lines anyways.


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## Son (Jan 23, 2006)

*black power rifle scopes*

Astigmatism or whatever, I can't see a deer past forty yards with open sights. The blurred sights cover the deer making it difficult to make a good shot. Actually the open sights are not in focus at any yardage.
Might as well make scopes legal. Blackpowder guns have already gotten away from primitive. If not, lets go back to flintlocks, percussion with caps and nipples, real black powder and do away with all this new fangled stuff. While we're at it, lets do away with compound bows and get back to recurves and long bows. Shucks, maybe we shouldn't stop there. Lets get back to homemade bows, arrows and spears. Or maybe snares. Seriously, inlines, pyrodex etc.. and no scopes cause they want to keep it authentic?

Sorry, but I couldn't help but laugh...Guess it's because I've gone to meetings most my life on behalf of our hunting, fishing and outdoor pursuits and know how some rules come about.


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## Possum (Jan 23, 2006)

Son said:
			
		

> Astigmatism or whatever, I can't see a deer past forty yards with open sights. The blurred sights cover the deer making it difficult to make a good shot. Actually the open sights are not in focus at any yardage.
> Might as well make scopes legal. Blackpowder guns have already gotten away from primitive. If not, lets go back to flintlocks, percussion with caps and nipples, real black powder and do away with all this new fangled stuff. While we're at it, lets do away with compound bows and get back to recurves and long bows. Shucks, maybe we shouldn't stop there. Lets get back to homemade bows, arrows and spears. Or maybe snares. Seriously, inlines, pyrodex etc.. and no scopes cause they want to keep it authentic?



Why be such a smart.....


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## robertyb (Jan 23, 2006)

"Seriously, inlines, pyrodex etc.. and no scopes cause they want to keep it authentic?"


Actually they had scopes way back when. Not many had them but there were some around. All the snipers in the war between the States used them.


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## Randy (Jan 23, 2006)

Well at the time the rules for primitive weapons were written, the inlines were not around or just getting started.  As such they did not write them out in the rules.  The intent was to give the muzzleloaders a special season to practice their sport with it's own special challenges.  Scopes just add to the degradation of that challenge.


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## Possum (Jan 23, 2006)

Who is "they" I didnt see a negetive post from anyone against scopes......... if you are for scopes on muzzleloaders thats fine but dont try to argue with your fellow hunters..... we are supposed to be on the same team.


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## Carp (Jan 23, 2006)

I hope they pass it this year. I don't see where not being able to have a scope for one week really makes a difference


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## Randy (Jan 23, 2006)

Carp said:
			
		

> I don't see where not being able to have a scope for one week really makes a difference



You would if you were a traditionalist muzzleloader hunter.


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## Bowhunter24 (Jan 23, 2006)

wow i actually agree with something randy said, if the guy cant see past 50 yds, he dont need to shoot, it wont kill him to wait one more week when rifle season kicks in. If it does pass i hope it is like it was this past yr, give the archers our week back and take a week away from the rifle season


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## Hawg (Jan 23, 2006)

*I hope it passes too!!*

I hope it passes.  There's alot of places on my property where I can make 200 yard shots with my in-line smoke pole. I sure hope this year  is the year.


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## Son (Jan 23, 2006)

*scopes*

Not intended to be smart, just truthful. For or against, each to his own. One week without a scope isn't a big thing with me, I can continue to bowhunt in the heat and mosquitos. I've been around long enough to know the first intent of blackpowder hunting, but they keep lowering the rope, so why not scopes too. I also remember lobbying for archery licenses in Florida so we could have an archery season. Same for the muzzleloader season and licenses. Make scopes legal and us old guys can see too. Even if they are long skinny and made of brass.


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## kevincox (Jan 23, 2006)

A scope is of know benefit if you can't see a deer out of your stand. Sightings for most sure has dropped over the last 2 years


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## Possum (Jan 23, 2006)

Son, you cant see a deer at 40 with iron sights but you can see them through your bows peep sight?


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## SBG (Jan 23, 2006)

Of course scopes should be allowed.It will make the muzzleloader more efficient and allow for a imporved chance of a clean kill.


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## Hawg (Jan 23, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> Of course scopes should be allowed.It will make the muzzleloader more efficient and allow for a imporved chance of a clean kill.



I agree 100percent


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## Son (Jan 23, 2006)

*scopes*

Nice buck you're holding there Kevin. I like odd racks like that. Huge six's, big four by two etc..


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## Parker Phoenix (Jan 23, 2006)

Ok by me, I use an inline scoped  out all during firearm season. Getting hard to see through iron sights, no biggie, I have the same trouble at dusk with my bow through the peep sight, I have to put a little blue light on my fiber optic sights. If it doesn't pass I'll just bowhunt another week. Although I hate bowhunting with that orange vest.


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## Parker Phoenix (Jan 23, 2006)

kevincox said:
			
		

> A scope is of know benefit if you can't see a deer out of your stand. Sightings for most sure has dropped over the last 2 years



I have to wear reading glasses and have a hard time seeing up close. It's not the deer you can't see at 40 yards, it's the iron sights at 30 inches you can't see. I need a scope .


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## flacarnivore (Jan 23, 2006)

what SGB said!


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## kevincox (Jan 23, 2006)

Son, thanks for the compliment on my Avatar! THAT old buck is actually an 8 pointer(has short G'3's) He is a memory I will never forget!


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## GA_Longhorn (Jan 23, 2006)

Possum said:
			
		

> Son, you cant see a deer at 40 with iron sights but you can see them through your bows peep sight?


 
Believe it or not...a peep sight on a front-end-loader would accomplish the same thing out to 100yds, as far as sighting the rifle. A small aperture makes for a better depth of field, thus putting both sights AND the target in focus. If you have doubts, try it and report back here.   

Regards,
Charles


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## discounthunter (Jan 23, 2006)

possom im thinking of something black with lenses in it....


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## SADDADDY (Jan 23, 2006)

*Scopes on Smokepoles*

that is a two wat street if you think about it, Scopes will make for better shots, but on the other hand it may lead to more hunters trying to reach out pst the limits of the gun itself making for alot of wounded animals 

iron sights does make your shots alot tougher past 50yrds or so but with practice and knowing your limit they can be a killing machine, but that also rings true with a novice smokeploe hunter who has little practice may make some bad shots as well using iron/peep sights 

I have a set of True Glow sights on my rig and they are great but I know my limits are out to 50yrds, so I have passed on alot of good deer over the years walking out of my comfort zone.

In a way I hope they do not allow scopes


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## Dub (Jan 24, 2006)

I'll keep iron sighting it.  My scope will just encourage me to take shots at ranges where there just isn't enough energy left.


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## Slug-Gunner (Jan 24, 2006)

*Small Aperture and "Vision"....*



			
				GA_Longhorn said:
			
		

> Believe it or not...a peep sight on a front-end-loader would accomplish the same thing out to 100yds, as far as sighting the rifle. A small aperture makes for a better depth of field, thus putting both sights AND the target in focus. If you have doubts, try it and report back here.
> 
> Regards,
> Charles



I recently had my vision checked again as part of my annual Type 2 Diabetes exam. During the exam after checking my individual eye vision on the chart, the optometrist handed me a paddle with a series of small holes in it and told me to close one eye and put the paddle over the other eye while aligning up my eye with one of the holes in the paddle. I was quite surprised that while doing so I was able to extend my vision to be able to read two lines further down the chart to 25/20 while wearing my glasses. (My uncorrected vision is in excess of 20/400, or "What 'E'"?). I've also noticed that I can shoot much tighter groups at 100 yards using my iron sighted military surplus mausers that have the aperture rear sights on them too. The smaller the rear aperture is, the better I'm able to see the detail of the target at 100 yards.

I have a friend who uses a .45-70 for hunting and he's installed an aperture rear tang sight on it and can shoot extremely tight groups at 100 yards with it. 

For those of you who can't mount a scope on your rifle or shotgun for various reasons, you might want to consider having the rear sight switched over to an aperture type sight. It will help you shoot better if you're nearsighted like I am. For those of you that are farsighted, there isn't much you can do except switch to a scope mounted weapon or consider having lasix eye surgury done.

      ​


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## Mechanicaldawg (Jan 24, 2006)

five-o said:
			
		

> The bill to allow scopes was set to pass last year. However it got tied up in the proposed deer dogging changes because the stand alone dogging bill had no support. It is set to be introduced again this year and should pass.



Here is a germaine post.

The only thing that might stop it, if it is re-introduced would be if some legislature slaps some sort of unrelated ammendment to it when it hits the floor as was the case last year.

If you don't like the idea, I recommend you contact your elected officials. As a matter of fact, if you do like the idea I would offer the same suggestion.


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## mikey (Jan 24, 2006)

With my glasses I cannot focus on sights like some other folks.  I sure hope they pass it so I can use a scope.  It would be a lot better for me, and cheaper than eye surgery.


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## markland (Jan 24, 2006)

With the advancement in technology of muzzleloaders, what does it matter if someone uses a scope?  If you want a primitive season then limit it to sidelocks, loose powder and no sabots.  A muzzleloader is not what they use to be and times have changed.  A scope definitely makes the weapon more efficient and accurate for most individuals and that was the intention of the season to open another avenue for more involvement.   If scopes are allowed on crossbows then how can you defend them not being allowed for muzzleloaders?  Mark


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## mikey (Jan 24, 2006)

I think we should look at the overall picture not just our own one sided view.  I know my vote would be yes do to my own personnal reasons, and some others would vote for theirs.  But what is good for the whole is what they are after.  If they allow scopes you dont have to use one.


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## TJay (Jan 24, 2006)

I'll keep iron sighting it too, as long as I'm able.


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## bayoudawg (Jan 24, 2006)

I have my Knight mounted with a 3-9. I did so for hunting hogs though, not deer. However, the rifle is pretty dang accurate with plenty of power at 100 yards. It has become one of my favorite guns. In fact, I left my 30/30 home this year for the first time in forever, several times, so I could take my muzzy out during rifle season.

For me, the ML is about one shot. I don't take any shot with any gun if I'm not 100% confident of a clean one shot kill. For some folks, it's about the tradition. I think the scope provides an deffinate non-primitive advantage, where the inline arrangment and ammo does not so much.   

I too have terrible vision (astigmatism) that makes open sights difficult, especially in low light. That said, I have no problems leaving primitive weapons scopeless, but agree that scoped crossbows should be disallowed also. The downside is more wounded animals.


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## Al33 (Jan 24, 2006)

Just do away with any Primitive or Black Powder week, then anyone can hunt with a ML with or without scope, in-line or flint lock. Solves a whole lot of problems.


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## PWalls (Jan 24, 2006)

It doesn't bother me one way or the other. I currently use my in-line without one and limit my distance. I have passed several times on deer that were over my comfort level (about 75yards). I will continue to do so if they are not allowed this year. If they are allowed, I may put a fixed power scope on it just so I could get some early doe meat that walks by at 100 yards. Still wouldn't feel comfortable much over that though.


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## Mechanicaldawg (Jan 24, 2006)

Al33 said:
			
		

> Just do away with any Primitive or Black Powder week, then anyone can hunt with a ML without without scope, in-line or flint lock. Solves a whole lot of problems.



Now Al! Don't be applying common sense to the issue!


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## Minner (Jan 24, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> Of course scopes should be allowed.It will make the muzzleloader more efficient and allow for a imporved chance of a clean kill.



Might make the shooter more efficient, but how does it make the rifle more efficient  

I have no problem w/ people w/ bad eyesight (as tested and certified by a dr.) or past a certain age using scopes. Kinda like it used to be w/ crossbows. But for the life of me I don't understand why folks in or around my age w/ my kind of eyesight want scopes on muzzleloaders. What's so hard about learning to shoot w/ iron sights and learning your effect range? Sure you can't shoot as far as you might if you had a magnifying scope, but that was kinda the point in the first place. If you just HAVE to hunt a muzzleloader w/ a scope, why not wait seven measly days until the modern rifle season opens up? It's only one week. 

And, as a side note, I would have no problew w/ them getting rid of inlines or sabots either (as that always seems to come up in these muzzleloader w/ scope debaits).

I like Al33's idea. A better idea would be to just get rid of the whole primitive weapons season altogether. If scopes are allowed, basically will just be left w/ a single-shot rifle season.

I don't know why this topic gets me so fired up. Seriously, there are way more important topics than this, but for one reason or another it does. So, I apologize now if I offended anyone. It's not like what I say or think means a hill of beans anyway


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## How2fish (Jan 24, 2006)

Son said:
			
		

> Astigmatism or whatever, I can't see a deer past forty yards with open sights. The blurred sights cover the deer making it difficult to make a good shot. Actually the open sights are not in focus at any yardage.
> Might as well make scopes legal. Blackpowder guns have already gotten away from primitive. If not, lets go back to flintlocks, percussion with caps and nipples, real black powder and do away with all this new fangled stuff. While we're at it, lets do away with compound bows and get back to recurves and long bows. Shucks, maybe we shouldn't stop there. Lets get back to homemade bows, arrows and spears. Or maybe snares. Seriously, inlines, pyrodex etc.. and no scopes cause they want to keep it authentic?
> 
> 
> ...



I agree makes perfect sense..a scope on a crossbow and not on a muzzleloader....???? Just keepin it real I guess..


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## Possum (Jan 24, 2006)

discounthunter said:
			
		

> possom im thinking of something black with lenses in it....



I never said I dont use scopes and I have absolutly no problem with making them legal on muzzleloaders.......... in the picture of me you posted I did hunt that evening with a scoped .17 hmr. I bought it fox predetor hunting and I just wanted to try it out on squirrels......... is that OK? Usually I hunt with an old .22 with iron sights or a 20 ga.


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## Possum (Jan 24, 2006)

BTW I know of a man that that hunts with an old flintlock that could probably out shoot any of us using the new modern muzzleloaders. He could shoot a squirrel in the head at 100 yards every time (free handed) and he wears reading glasses. I think alot of you just dont have much expirience shooting with iron sights and thats OK......... you should learn how to though.


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## Bucky T (Jan 24, 2006)

Again, it doesn't really matter to me.  My iron sights worked quite well this past season.  If it passes, I'll keep on shooting with my iron sights and won't be mad that someone else may have a scope on their muzzeloader. 

Tommy


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## Just 1 More (Jan 24, 2006)

I don't care either way.. i don't ues a muzzleloader.. I don't use a gun.. i'm BOW ONLY


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## Bucky T (Jan 24, 2006)

I hear ya man!!

Bows are great too!!!  I just like to mix it up a bit.   

Tommy


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## SBG (Jan 24, 2006)

Minner said:
			
		

> Might make the shooter more efficient, but how does it make the rifle more efficient



Same way a peep sight makes a bow more efficient. It enhances.:


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## Son (Jan 24, 2006)

*Scopes*

Love these type discussions, good sounding board, but we get nowhere.


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## Carp (Jan 24, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> You would if you were a traditionalist muzzleloader hunter.



But I'm not and there aren't any on my hunting club, and it wouldn't matter even if there was. It's no different than the introduction of compund bows when that happened. In the grand scheme of things it wouldn't matter one bit.


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## mikey (Jan 25, 2006)

Carp said:
			
		

> But I'm not and there aren't any on my hunting club, and it wouldn't matter even if there was. It's no different than the introduction of compund bows when that happened. In the grand scheme of things it wouldn't matter one bit.




The Truth has been spoken


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## NotaVegetarian (Jan 25, 2006)

I wont matter, somebody will think they recoil too much to shoot.  Put them on or leave them off it won't change a thing.


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## jeclif (Jan 25, 2006)

I don't think that the flash or sparks from my flinch lock would do a scope any good 
could be it's like the baiting  thing  to each his own
but me if I can't get anything with my old  flint lock 
then I am not good enough   and all the extras or bait won't make a lot of diff.


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## Al33 (Jan 25, 2006)

It seems to me that the real or true reason for hunting with a ML or PW is to meet the challenge of doing it like in the old days. To me at least, in-lines and scopes defeat that.

It also appears to me we have hunters who want to take advantage of the week long season intended for those who want to meet the challenges of doing it the old way, and herein lies the conflict.


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## Randy (Jan 25, 2006)

Al33 said:
			
		

> It seems to me that the real or true reason for hunting with a ML or PW is to meet the challenge of doing it like in the old days. To me at least, in-lines and scopes defeat that.
> 
> It also appears to me we have hunters who want to take advantage of the week long season intended for those who want to meet the challenges of doing it the old way, and herein lies the conflict.



Correct.


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## How2fish (Jan 25, 2006)

Al33 said:
			
		

> It seems to me that the real or true reason for hunting with a ML or PW is to meet the challenge of doing it like in the old days. To me at least, in-lines and scopes defeat that.
> 
> It also appears to me we have hunters who want to take advantage of the week long season intended for those who want to meet the challenges of doing it the old way, and herein lies the conflict.



Al the problem is that if your eyesight is fading, your not doing the deer any favors..of course you can do like 4 of the members of my club have the last 2 years..sell the smoke pole and buy a crossbow with a scope..and really do it like the Indians..my idea is keep the season dates and  every day is doe days any you can use any weapon currently legal in Georgia and take 5 deer....only 2 can be bucks with visable horn and only 3 can be antlerless.


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## elfiii (Jan 25, 2006)

pfharris1965 said:
			
		

> Why not have respect for our elders? An exception for people with eyesight difficulties documented by a doctor should still be able to hunt. Maybe even make it for people over a certain age, heck we already give them an honorary license which is fine by me...(not sure how well that would work though because there are a lot of seniors that can see well...my GrandDaddy was 86 the last time he and I shot a pistol together and at 40 paces he shot the eyes out of the target....made me look sad....)
> 
> I just say that I for one would not mind making exceptions for those people with bona fide needs...especially the elders that have preserved the sport and have now passed the torch to me to protect and carry....
> 
> ...



I'll testify brother.

It seems to me too many people are hung up on weapons now that the great baiting debate is over for a few minutes. Put a scope on your smoke pole for crying out loud if you think it will help you shoot better. Its' not about being a "macho man purist" (way too many of them to suit me). Its' about being in the woods, and maybe getting the opportunity to make a shot. Taking the shot means making sure its' going to be a kill shot. If you need a scope to make sure that's the case, then what are you waiting for?

When it comes to choice of weapon, if we did it the way all these "purist" want things done, there wouldn't be very many hunters in the woods now would there?


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## FX Jenkins (Jan 25, 2006)

Im very thankful for primitive seasons, in that it provides a small window of opportunity for folks to experience hunting with traditional weaponry, before more advanced weaponry reduces game populations, and all the scoped rifles come out, and incorrectly increasing the potential for my orange vest to be mistaken for a deer... 

And I have personally experienced that iron sights are adequate for accurate sigting far beyond the maximum effective range of any muzzle loader, especially the ones designed with smaller rear apetuares like Slug Gunner mentioned....

And as with most of the laws that allow increased technology to be used, as individuals we always have the option of, not utilizing the technology and staying as primitive/challanged as we like ..short of throwing spears and such, of course.

But when establishing game laws, you do have to draw the line somewhere, as to what is primitive ...and yes scopes were used during the Civil war, but they were obviously not of the same quality as we have today, and while I can see allowing scopes on ML's and providing options for folks with fading eyesight, or for whatever reason, I personally believe it disqualifies the device as a primitive weapon FOR me, but then again same arguement can be applied to cams on bows, and plastic vanes, etc etc, or anything made of modern materials/design and applied to a basic "primitive" weapon, and then again I do use gore tex clothing and not buck skin..so, its a tough question...I guess it remains a personal preference...


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## NotaVegetarian (Jan 25, 2006)

I take advantage of it every year since it came into effect.  I take that week off, and hunt all day everyday.  I use an inline, with a 150 grain charge of 777, pushing a 245 grain CVA Powerbelt, equipped with fiber optic sights.  Smoking one at 100 yards is not too big a problem.  It is also mounted with Leupold quick release bases, & rings sporting a 3x9x40 Bushnell 3200.  I currently remove the scope for that one week period.  When scopes are approved you better believe I will leave it mounted.  If the law requires a different scope I am ready for that too.  I have a new in the box Bushnell 3200 4x on the shelf.  Yes I am ready to take advantage of the opportunity the state of GA will provide for us.  I think of it like this, I am in the woods for one week ahead of rifle hunters with a high powered rifle that loads from the business end.


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## How2fish (Jan 25, 2006)

And I have personally experienced that iron sights are adequate for accurate sigting far beyond the maximum effective range of any muzzle loader, especially the ones designed with smaller rear apetuares like Slug Gunner mentioned....

I too have experienced that iron sights are adequate...back when I could see them...lol  now my sights are fuzzy at 5 yards 10  yards ,15 yards...you get the picture.. the galling part is that its not a problem with the equipment but the user, and some folks think it OK to tell me and those in a simlar fix to just get over it, but they can put a scope on a BOW...I confess I miss the logic there..


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## FX Jenkins (Jan 25, 2006)

How2fish said:
			
		

> I too have experienced that iron sights are adequate...back when I could see them...lol  now my sights are fuzzy at 5 yards 10  yards ,15 yards...you get the picture.. the galling part is that its not a problem with the equipment but the user, and some folks think it OK to tell me and those in a simlar fix to just get over it, but they can put a scope on a BOW...I confess I miss the logic there..



H2F,
  I understand what your saying, and from my entire post, you can see, I hope you can see , that I believe laws should accomodate medical coditions...to the point thats its reasonable anyway...All of us are going to have to individually assess one day whether we're fit to participate in any given activity....I sincerely want you to be able to enjoy hunting to the same degree that I do and everyone else for that matter, and that the laws should provide for this fairy and equally...but again, a line must be drawn, i.e. there will be come a time when I hope my children won't let me drive a car, not for my sake but for the other motorists around me...


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## How2fish (Jan 25, 2006)

FX Jenkins said:
			
		

> H2F,
> I understand what your saying, and from my entire post, you can see, I hope you can see , that I believe laws should accomodate medical coditions...to the point thats its reasonable anyway...All of us are going to have to individually assess one day whether we're fit to participate in any given activity....I sincerely want you to be able to enjoy hunting to the same degree that I do and everyone else for that matter, and that the laws should provide for this fairy and equally...but again, a line must be drawn, i.e. there will be come a time when I hope my children won't let me drive a car, not for my sake but for the other motorists around me...


FX I do understand what your saying and I hope I didn't come off wrong..my problem is I see fine with my glasses for everything but sighting with iron sights...drives my nuts...


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## Al33 (Jan 25, 2006)

Folks, the original PW season was established for primitive weapons, thus it's name. Just like archery season was established for archers back before even compounds were available. Both of these seasons have been diluted to the point they really no longer live up to their names, except that the PW season has been renamed BP season.

I understand the sight problems prolly better than most, having one eye and not being able to focus on iron sights, but I also recognize my limitations and do not ask others to make exceptions for them. I wished I were able to compete in the Olypics, but my physical state will not allow it. Should I petition the Olympic committees to make exceptions for me? I think not.

This is the point I am trying to make, and if that makes me a purist, then I am proud to be one, even when it is used in a negative context. I have been called worse in my day.


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## Branchminnow (Jan 25, 2006)

I want a scope on my muzzle loader and I want to keep the seasons just as they are.


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## Randy (Jan 25, 2006)

Branchminnow said:
			
		

> I want a scope on my muzzle loader and I want to keep the seasons just as they are.


Then put one on there and hunt wiht it during rifle season.  It is legal then.


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## Branchminnow (Jan 25, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> Then put one on there and hunt wiht it during rifle season.  It is legal then.


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## Randy (Jan 25, 2006)

You can use it at the quail hunt too!!!


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## Branchminnow (Jan 25, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> You can use it at the quail hunt too!!!


The muzzle loader or the scope


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## groundhawg (Jan 25, 2006)

I want a scope on my muzzle loader and I want to keep the seasons just as they are.

Me too!


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## How2fish (Jan 25, 2006)

Al33 said:
			
		

> Folks, the original PW season was established for primitive weapons, thus it's name. Just like archery season was established for archers back before even compounds were available. Both of these seasons have been diluted to the point they really no longer live up to their names, except that the PW season has been renamed BP season.
> 
> I understand the sight problems prolly better than most, having one eye and not being able to focus on iron sights, but I also recognize my limitations and do not ask others to make exceptions for them. I wished I were able to compete in the Olypics, but my physical state will not allow it. Should I petition the Olympic committees to make exceptions for me? I think not.
> 
> This is the point I am trying to make, and if that makes me a purist, then I am proud to be one, even when it is used in a negative context. I have been called worse in my day.



Al your too good a Woodyite to be called anything bad and I hope you didn't think I was...my point is that if you can put a scope on a bow and still have a special season for it I can't see why you can't put one on a muzzleloader...when an awful lot of us are at the point to either quit using them or take bad shots due to failing eyesight that's an unfair choice in my view, but I was not trying to poke at you, its just my 2 cents.


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## groundhawg (Jan 25, 2006)

Well you have made up my mind.  I am going ahead and putting one on now so I can get it sighted in before turkey season starts.  No longer have to wait till they get close and I can shot them off the roost once it get light enough to see.  Never cared for calling them in anyway. 

Plan to leave it on and use during PW season, if not legal for deer than I will just hunt squirrels instead.  Of course if I did see a big old buck, hum... what would I do then?


----------



## fredw (Jan 25, 2006)

Groundhawg, you may get some feedback on your post here from some other members.

And by the way, I'm sure you would let that buck walk.


----------



## scshep2002 (Jan 25, 2006)

Yes


----------



## REMINGTON710 (Jan 25, 2006)

Possum said:
			
		

> but I want to fight about black panthers


lets just go back to baiting


----------



## Torupduck (Jan 25, 2006)

elfiii said:
			
		

> I'll testify brother.
> 
> It seems to me too many people are hung up on weapons now that the great baiting debate is over for a few minutes. Put a scope on your smoke pole for crying out loud if you think it will help you shoot better. Its' not about being a "macho man purist" (way too many of them to suit me). Its' about being in the woods, and maybe getting the opportunity to make a shot. Taking the shot means making sure its' going to be a kill shot. If you need a scope to make sure that's the case, then what are you waiting for?
> 
> When it comes to choice of weapon, if we did it the way all these "purist" want things done, there wouldn't be very many hunters in the woods now would there?


I need say nothing now.  Thank you!


----------



## Al33 (Jan 25, 2006)

*How2fish,*

Without going back and rereading the posts, I could not tell you who used the term purist, but if it was you, or whoever, not to worry, no offense taken by me.

I understand others will differ from me, I only want to share why I have the views I do. I also realize it's a long shot, but I just might be able to shed enough light on an issue such as this one to at least enlighten others to the point they do not view my takes in a disdaining light. You know, understanding and all that stuff. 

AND, just for the record, I do not believe scopes should be allowed on bows of anykind unless they are used in the "regular" firearms season. Now then guys, not trying to start another debate about bows, so don't even try to take me there, just making a point to support my original opinion. Neither do I want to be argumentive. I have now stated my takes on the scopes on ML's and that's all I intended to do in the first place.


----------



## jeclif (Jan 25, 2006)

people what I wanted to get across is you do what you want for your reason and I will do what I want for my reason
and lets just have a good time


----------



## Nicodemus (Jan 25, 2006)

I took no offence to bein` a "Purist" either. I wear the term proudly. I live in two worlds and spend half my time tryin` to keep em separated, and The Redhead stays in a state of shock wonderin` what I`m gonna try next.
Although I hunt with modern weapons too, I`m a strict traditionalist when it comes to my muzzleloadin` rifles and pistol, my bows, arrows, atlatls, and darts, and the clothin` of the time period that fits in with all this. 

At the same time, I realize that this is not an endeavor for everybody.  I hunted with traditional weapons long before we had a special season set aside for us. I didn`t feel handicapped then, and don`t now. It doesn`t bother me the least little bit if folks want to hunt with modern inline rifles with all the modern contrivances or hunt with mechanical compound arrow flingin` devices. If that makes you happy, then go for it, I`m happy for you. 

My last thoughts on this are as follows-My defination of a PRIMITIVE WEAPON is one that has been crafted from wood, stone, bone, ivory, shell, leather, hide, and-or sinew. This does not include even my beloved flintlock rifle, because it is made with iron and brass.


----------



## Hawg (Jan 25, 2006)

groundhawg said:
			
		

> I want a scope on my muzzle loader and I want to keep the seasons just as they are.
> 
> Me too!





Me three


----------



## camo93 (Jan 25, 2006)

I don’t see the big deal about allowing scopes. Why not give people the choice to hunt the way they feel is right for them. I don’t think there is anything traditionalist about hunting with a muzzleloader of today’s caliber anyway, scope or iron-sight… 

I wonder how many people are using quick loads vs. packing their own powder??? Are quick loads primitive?? I don’t think so….

I personal like the quick loads. I wouldn’t mind seeing a scope on my muzzy.. It just gives me the advantage for a clean kill..


----------



## jeclif (Jan 26, 2006)

ck back camo --  even the early shooters had what called the aposiles (remember I cain't spell)


----------



## flat foot (Jan 29, 2006)

Leave them off, we have to draw the line in the reg's some where.


----------



## NotaVegetarian (Jan 29, 2006)

Give the user a choice to use one or not.


----------



## Torupduck (Jan 29, 2006)

flat foot said:
			
		

> Leave them off, we have to draw the line in the reg's some where.


If you have a scope your chances of a clean kill go up though.
I guess I am bias though because I bought a scope for my muzzleloader a week before I found out that they were illegal.


----------



## Coastie (Jan 30, 2006)

Galileo Galilei was the first to use a scope on a firearm. His hobby was long range shooting. He lived during the late 1500s to the mid 1600s. I believe that the only firearms available at the time were muzzleloaders. The gun he used was likely a matchlock or a wheel-lock or at least we know it wasn't an inline, so I'd say the argument about scopes on "Primitive"weapons as not an authentic use of said weapons is all wet. Scopes were used in one form or another from that time on in various applications, they were primitive compared to what is available today, but scopes none the less.


----------



## fredw (Jan 30, 2006)

*How many of you guys*

both for and against scopes on your muzzleloader, have taken the time to send an email to your Georgia State representative and senator to let them know how you feel?

A bill was introduced last year that would legalize scopes on your muzzleloader.  It's still sitting there waiting for legislative action.  WRD has expressed support.

Talking here on Woody's is interesting but, if you want to heard where it counts, take the time to send an email to your elected officials.


----------



## Branchminnow (Jan 30, 2006)

fredw said:
			
		

> both for and against scopes on your muzzleloader, have taken the time to send an email to your Georgia State representative and senator to let them know how you feel?
> 
> A bill was introduced last year that would legalize scopes on your muzzleloader.  It's still sitting there waiting for legislative action.  WRD has expressed support.
> 
> Talking here on Woody's is interesting but, if you want to heard where it counts, take the time to send an email to your elected officials.


----------



## Randy (Jan 30, 2006)

Wonder if Jimmy Houston uses a scope on his muzzleloader?


----------



## orion1mdl (Jan 30, 2006)

Just get it over with and  have deer season start in Oct., and run to mid Jan.
Any weapon legal, no restrictions, just wide open!

   For those of you that are all about it being strictly a matter of the individuals choice, you surely can't be against this idea.


----------



## Randy (Jan 30, 2006)

I agree.  Wiht the degradation of these special seasons, we might as well have one long season with any legal weapon.


----------



## Torupduck (Jan 30, 2006)

I am for it.  But honestly I dont think I would use anything but my rifle.  Imagine that!!


----------



## Hawg (Jan 30, 2006)

Yeah me too toridak. 

Id throw my bow in the garbage can.


----------



## orion1mdl (Jan 30, 2006)

toridak said:
			
		

> I am for it.  But honestly I dont think I would use anything but my rifle.  Imagine that!!


Might as well  But it's all about individual choice. 

In all reality your centerfire rifle probably doesn't give you that big of an edge over some of the in-lines with a scope, as far as range.


----------



## Torupduck (Jan 30, 2006)

No and most of us dont get shots over 100 yards anyway.  I know there are some but for the most part....


----------



## NotaVegetarian (Jan 30, 2006)

If he does at least he has the choice to use it or not...


----------



## orion1mdl (Jan 30, 2006)

NotaVegetarian said:
			
		

> If he does at least he has the choice to use it or not...



   Yes, I know he would have the choice, per my proposal for one long deer season, and any weapon would be legal for the entire season.

 I was only attempting to make the point that there would be little practical advantage in range between centerfire rifles and some of the in-line muzzle loaders out there.


----------



## Just 1 More (Jan 30, 2006)

orion1mdl said:
			
		

> Yes, I know he would have the choice, per my proposal for one long deer season, and any weapon would be legal for the entire season.
> 
> I was only attempting to make the point that there would be little practical advantage in range between centerfire rifles and some of the in-line muzzle loaders out there.


But not everyone hunts with an in-line.. so it would still allow a choice of muzzleloaders during that specific season. 
No one said you had to use a scope on an in-line... you still get to choose what you want to use.. so you choose yours,,, and i'll choose mine..  
FYI (that means For Your Information) I hunt bow only all season..,, without a scope


----------



## orion1mdl (Jan 31, 2006)

Just 1 More said:
			
		

> But not everyone hunts with an in-line.. so it would still allow a choice of muzzleloaders during that specific season.
> No one said you had to use a scope on an in-line... you still get to choose what you want to use.. so you choose yours,,, and i'll choose mine..
> FYI (that means For Your Information) I hunt bow only all season..,, without a scope



   Absolutely! But why have any specific or seperate season at all?

   What is the reason for having a seperate archery or primitive weapons season? Those that choose to hunt with a recurve, a flintlock, or an in-line still could hunt with those weapons. No one is telling them they can't use them. That is the main point in many discussions regarding choices in hunting. It is more often than not, one of the first replies, "don't use one if you don't want to" or "you can still use whatever you choose".

   Why shouldn't the law be changed to remove any existing seperate seasons, and have deer season start when archery season ued to start and just allow every hunter to make their own choice as to what weapon to use and when?

   Arguements have been made that choices should be increased in order to make it easier for others to get involved, in order to make better shots on game, in order to aid those with issues with their eyesight.
Centerfire rifles will do all of the above, and yet the choice is still there for those, like myself, that love to shoot the old traditional stlye of muzzle loaders with a patched round ball, and my compound bow as well as my Ben Pearson take down recurve.

   Just do away with any seperate seasons, and open it wide open!


----------



## How2fish (Jan 31, 2006)

One thing about opening the season to any legal weapon might be that it would allow hunters to go back to a lower limit..I think if you could take deer with rifles at the real beginning of the season that taking a few would be easier. Remember by the time rifles season  comes in hunters have been wandering around it the woods in numbers for 4-5 weeks. I'd love to go back to a limit of 5 deer a season, but that won't happen unless we can take the same number of deer as are being taken now..with rifles legal earlier I think we could
..just my 2 cents.


----------



## orion1mdl (Jan 31, 2006)

How2fish,
   I'm not sure the limits would have to be lowered. But I'm also not sure how many hunters kill all the deer their allowed to now.

   I can't think of anyone of the top of my head that kills even 10 deer a year now


----------



## Count Down (Jan 31, 2006)

I don't think the season should be any earlier than it is...I wouldn't mind an extended season...Went to the property last sunday and their are scapes, rubs, and tracks all over my old tree stand sights...I'd love to sneak back in there with a bow next year...It seems that the bucks are still chasing 3-4 weeks after the conclusion of S. Ga season.  I think the state says we have a over population of deer..making the extended season Doe only would help the population...What do ya'll think?


----------



## Count Down (Jan 31, 2006)

orion1mdl said:
			
		

> How2fish,
> I'm not sure the limits would have to be lowered. But I'm also not sure how many hunters kill all the deer their allowed to now.
> 
> I can't think of anyone of the top of my head that kills even 10 deer a year now




I agree...but an earlier season won't help much...I don't think anyway...Extend the one we have by 3 weeks..


----------



## Branchminnow (Jan 31, 2006)

I still want a scope on my CVA


----------



## Count Down (Jan 31, 2006)

Branchminnow said:
			
		

> I still want a scope on my CVA



I'm sorry, I guess that was the question, huh... 

I haven't had the opportunity to hunt with a blackpowder, but if I did, I would like to use a scope...With the distance that these rifles can shoot nowadays it really makes it a required item...  Sight Alignment, Sight Picture...It's not easy....I couldn't imagine trying to do it with a 10 pointer 85 yards out....And making sure it was a kill shot...


----------



## Branchminnow (Jan 31, 2006)

Lee County said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, I guess that was the question, huh...
> 
> I haven't had the opportunity to hunt with a blackpowder, but if I did, I would like to use a scope...With the distance that these rifles can shoot nowadays it really makes it a required item...  Sight Alignment, Sight Picture...It's not easy....I couldn't imagine trying to do it with a 10 pointer 85 yards out....And making sure it was a kill shot...


I was just messing with yall,


----------



## Count Down (Jan 31, 2006)

That was good...You know how these thread seem to take a right turn after the 5th or 6th posts..


----------



## Just 1 More (Jan 31, 2006)

Lee County said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, I guess that was the question, huh...
> 
> I haven't had the opportunity to hunt with a blackpowder, but if I did, I would like to use a scope...With the distance that these rifles can shoot nowadays it really makes it a required item...  Sight Alignment, Sight Picture...It's not easy....I couldn't imagine trying to do it with a 10 pointer 85 yards out....And making sure it was a kill shot...


STOP IT!!!!! There is no room in this post for common sense logic


----------



## Count Down (Jan 31, 2006)

But wait I have another................aw never mind...


----------



## Branchminnow (Jan 31, 2006)

Lee County said:
			
		

> That was good...You know how these thread seem to take a right turn after the 5th or 6th posts..


Im afraid Im responsible for many a thread gone astray.


----------



## Count Down (Jan 31, 2006)

What? Noooo....Not you!...I'm offended!


----------



## How2fish (Jan 31, 2006)

orion1mdl said:
			
		

> How2fish,
> I'm not sure the limits would have to be lowered. But I'm also not sure how many hunters kill all the deer their allowed to now.
> 
> I can't think of anyone of the top of my head that kills even 10 deer a year now



I agree I didn't clearly state my idea..I'd like to see a 5 deer limit 5 deer total of which ONLY 3 does MAX could be taken..I'm very concerned on the number of does being killed around the state...I'm afraid we could easily have a population crash if we encounter a outbreak of "bluetongue" or any other diease. Coupled with the percentage of the does we are killing.


----------



## raghorn (Jan 31, 2006)

How2fish said:
			
		

> I agree I didn't clearly state my idea..I'd like to see a 5 deer limit 5 deer total of which ONLY 3 does MAX could be taken..I'm very concerned on the number of does being killed around the state...I'm afraid we could easily have a population crash if we encounter a outbreak of "bluetongue" or any other diease. Coupled with the percentage of the does we are killing.


I agree.


----------



## PWalls (Feb 1, 2006)

raghorn said:
			
		

> I agree.


 I don't.


----------



## NotaVegetarian (Feb 1, 2006)

raghorn said:
			
		

> I agree.





			
				PWalls said:
			
		

> I don't  .



Look freedom of choice in action


----------



## Torupduck (Feb 1, 2006)

NotaVegetarian said:
			
		

> Look freedom of choice in action


----------



## mikey (Feb 1, 2006)

Free will now ain't that something.... Who would have thought........


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## Boudreaux (Feb 5, 2006)

Possum said:
			
		

> To answer the question..... I dont know and dont care. Scopes do not increase effective yardage...... I will continue to hunt with iron sights and I dont mind if people put scopes on theirs......... there is nothing primitive about in-lines anyways.



I think this sums it up.  If you don't want to use a scope, don't.  But why force your views on what is primative about an in-line on others?  No one would be _forced_ to use a scope if it became legal.


----------



## Timbo (Feb 5, 2006)

originally by GA_Hunter



> I think this sums it up. If you don't want to use a scope, don't. But why force your views on what is primative about an in-line on others? No one would be forced to use a scope if it became legal.



Man,that is about the best reply to this post that sums it up for every one


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## Georgia Stalker (Feb 5, 2006)

Well it will be nice if they did put scopes on muzzleloaders because it would be easier to shoot anything out of your range.


----------



## Boudreaux (Feb 5, 2006)

Georgia Stalker said:
			
		

> Well it will be nice if they did put scopes on muzzleloaders because it would be easier to shoot anything out of your range.



I'm a little confused by what you are trying to say.  If you CAN shoot it, doesn't that make it IN your range?

Or are you saying that you believe scopes will extend the range of muzzleloading, or give hunters the false sense of an extended range?

Just trying to understand what point you are attempting to make.


----------



## Georgia Stalker (Feb 5, 2006)

It will extend the range of muzzleloading and the other thing is that it will give you a bigger target to shoot at through a scope besides looking through the pepsite. Do ya get me?


----------



## Torupduck (Feb 5, 2006)

Oh my god.  If ya dont want to use them then dont and zip your lip.


----------



## orion1mdl (Feb 5, 2006)

You all are making it harder than it has to be. Just do away with any seperate seasons, have just one long season, and allow any weapon during the entire season!

   Since it all boils down to individual choice, and most of you see no reason for a primitive weapons season, that would solve it.

   Other than the guys that like using the more traditional type of primitive weapons (like myself), or hand drawn and held bows during archery seasons, I've not seen any ones arguement as to why it shouldn't be one long, all weapons allowed season, so why not just support that idea?

   I  personally wouldn't support it , but for those that insist it's all about freedom of choice, why not?


----------



## Branchminnow (Feb 6, 2006)

I still want one on my inline super duper knock em in the dirt smoke pole!


----------



## Son (Feb 6, 2006)

*scopes on muzzleloaders*

Naw, just make 'em legal for people that wear corrective lenses. That'll be most of us old guys...lol


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## mikey (Feb 6, 2006)

You can Turkey hunt with a muzzleloader, and have a scope on it.  That is legal.  So mount it for Turkey season, by the time the law passes you will be ready for deer season.


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## armodiller killer (Feb 6, 2006)

Most of the deer I see aren't far enough for a scope to matter any way and for one week of season I could care less if they make it legal


----------



## Larry Rooks (Feb 6, 2006)

Is it not listed as a primitive weapon season (week) only???  Mounting a Leupold 3.5X-10X (50) sure as heck ain't primitive by any means.  I don't use a muzzle loader so ya'll make this decision


----------



## Tgow (Feb 6, 2006)

If you are gonna make scopes legal then you ought to be able to pistol hunt during the primitive weapons week!!!!


----------



## Boudreaux (Feb 6, 2006)

Larry Rooks said:
			
		

> Is it not listed as a primitive weapon season (week) only???  Mounting a Leupold 3.5X-10X (50) sure as heck ain't primitive by any means.  I don't use a muzzle loader so ya'll make this decision




Neither are crossbows with a scope, or an in-line muzzleloader, or a compound bow with all of its sighting accessories, nor is the frequently used laser range finder a primitave weapon or tool.

Why was the line for "primative" drawn at non-scoped in-line muzzleloaders?  I just don't understand the logic here.  I can't imagine I'd scope mine and deal with all of that that goes along with a scope for the 2 days a year I hunt with it.  But if someone else wants to, I say let them.  It's not goingt to affect me or my hunts.


----------



## orion1mdl (Feb 6, 2006)

GA_Hunter said:
			
		

> Neither are crossbows with a scope, or an in-line muzzleloader, or a compound bow with all of its sighting accessories, nor is the frequently used laser range finder a primitave weapon or tool.
> 
> Why was the line for "primative" drawn at non-scoped in-line muzzleloaders?  I just don't understand the logic here.  I can't imagine I'd scope mine and deal with all of that that goes along with a scope for the 2 days a year I hunt with it.  But if someone else wants to, I say let them.  It's not goingt to affect me or my hunts.



I agree with you  as far as what is considered a primative weapon now, but the lines  that were drawn have been nibbled away a little at a time to where now, there really is no such thing as a primative weapons season any more.

Primative weapons seasons were originally set up to allow folks that loved the old ways, the history and tradiitions, a seperate season for them to get into the woods without so much hunting pressure, as the weapons had a much shorter range capability compared to regular rifles. Those seasons were put in place to allow a group of hunters that had a different and unique way of hunting, a small portion of time during the season where they could step back in time a little and hunt the way that folks hunted when this Country was being born. The rifles we used may have been manufactured in the 1900's, but they still funtioned the same as the ones made 100+ years earlier and still had the same range limitations. 

   Evidently, it has become unacceptable for anyone to expect that a season that was set up to offer the chance to hunt this way, should be kept the way it was designed for. And instead of others that want to take advantage of that special season, actually learning how to use those weapons that season was designed for, We'll just push those that the season was started for, out of the way. and make it as easy as possible in order to not offend anyone that does'nt want to learn how to use the traitional types of weapons. Yep, just give them a in-line muzzle loader, that uses 209 shotshell primers for ignition, that shoots smokless powder, and uses sabboted sub-caliber bullets, and top it off with a handy dandy scope.

   Bottom line is there evidently aren't too many folks left that feel that the original idea and purpose of a primative weapons season is worth having anymore.
And there are many many who don't think it was right in the first place to have a seperate season for those that the season was set up for in the first place, So....... Just do away with any seperate seasons for anyone for any reason.
No Primative weapons season, No archery season, No muzzle loader season. Just deer season from mid Sept. to mid Feb.
What could possibly offer more choice?


----------



## Boudreaux (Feb 6, 2006)

Excellent points.  Had not considered the original intent of the season as you have laid it out.  Maybe we should be pushing to outlaw in-lines and cross bows during the "primative" season, or doing away with it all together as you have advocated.  I just can't see where an iron-sight in-line is primative and a scoped in-line is not.

Or maybe only on WMAs and other public lands make scopes on muzzleloaders illegal.  Let those on private land set the rules for their clubs.  Or the 1st week is primative, the 2nd week is crossbows, compound bows, and in-lines (scoped or not) and the 3rd week starts gun season??  I don't think everyone will be happy with whatever is decided, but maybe there are more things to consider than just a "yes" or "no" vote to scoped in-lines.

I think you are correct in stating that the traditional "primative" weapon definition has been nibbled away.  I'm guessing that this was an attempt to better control the deer population????  The State trying to get more opportunities to hunters to harvest deer?


----------



## Randy (Feb 6, 2006)

GA_Hunter said:
			
		

> Maybe we should be pushing to outlaw ...cross bows during the "primative" season,....



God forbid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Bigtimber (Feb 6, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> God forbid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Or maybe outlaw compounds during archery....lets get back to it...give them long bow boys what they deserve...maybe the first half of the season of archery.......I can hear the responces now......woooooo...hold on a minute...I like to hunt with compounds..and I don't want to learn something more difficult to use


----------



## Randy (Feb 6, 2006)

Nope, actully I have no problem with the archery season going to traditional.  That's the way it was originally intended.  If it did, I would have to make the decission to learn a new weapon or not.  At this time I would have to say I am not willing to work that hard.


			
				Bigtimber said:
			
		

> Or maybe outlaw compounds during archery....lets get back to it...give them boys what they deserve...maybe the first half of the season of archery.......I can hear the responces now......woooooo...hold one a minute...I like to hunt with compounds..and I don't want to learn something more difficult to use


----------



## Bigtimber (Feb 6, 2006)

But yet some give those cross bow hunters heck....wonder how some would feel if the long bow hunters put up as much of a fuss......a line has to be drawn but were all hunters and should respect each other....by the way Randy glad you see it both ways...


----------



## Torupduck (Feb 6, 2006)

Randy you know you secretly enjoy shooting crossbows.


----------



## NotaVegetarian (Feb 6, 2006)

Compromise; only allow the use of compound bows and crossbows for use with a special permit issued by the DNR.  

Allow scopes on muzzleloaders by permit.

Next the “C” word you knew I would throw it in.

Allow baiting.  Yeppers throw it out by the ton.  But of course by permit.  You can legal do it for Hogs right now.  By permit!

If we change something lets change it for all, not on the whine of just one.  Give the majority the opportunity to decide for themselves how they want to hunt.

Here is a quote from http://www.gohuntgeorgia.com/content/displaycontent.asp?txtDocument=278 

“It seems that Georgia hunters have the greenest grass in the neighborhood.  Georgia far exceeds its neighboring states in producing a quality deer herd. How did this happen? Well, it happened while we were paying attention to our neighbors. First and foremost, Georgia tailored a management system unique to Georgia. There is little doubt that voluntary restraint in the harvest of young bucks has contributed to this success; however, this practice is no silver bullet all by itself. Additionally, Georgia slowly increased the doe bag limit and either sex days while holding the buck bag limit constant at two.
As a result, the doe harvest steadily increased relieving hunting pressure on bucks. In fact, we lead the nation in doe harvest. At the same time, the harvest of quality bucks has increased while the harvest of younger bucks has decreased. Congratulations, you and the DNR have managed and molded Georgia's deer herd into a quality deer herd and made Georgia the leader in biologically sound deer management.”

It appears our folks with the GA state DNR know what they are doing and are committed to the task at hand. 

Folks Y’all keep up the good work and thank you for a job well done.


----------



## Lead Poison (Feb 6, 2006)

I sincerely hope this is year that scopes are finally allowed to be used on muzzleloaders


----------



## Torupduck (Feb 6, 2006)

Lead Poison said:
			
		

> I sincerely hope this is year that scopes are finally allowed to be used on muzzleloaders


Just to make it even, I'll agree!


----------



## orion1mdl (Feb 6, 2006)

GA_Hunter said:
			
		

> I think you are correct in stating that the traditional "primative" weapon definition has been nibbled away.  I'm guessing that this was an attempt to better control the deer population????  The State trying to get more opportunities to hunters to harvest deer?



Yep, you're absolutely right. It was originally seen as a useful tool in management, in addition to allowing those that had a passion for "those times" and enjoyed using the same type of weapons that their great grandparents used, a small window in the hunting season, when they could get in the woods without the throngs of regular gun hunters. Kind of keeping a little bit of our Countries history alive in the woods.

Then, as it often does, technology took over and figured out how to make guns that would, at least be loaded from the muzzle, but be easier to use, shoot longer ranges, requrie less work, and even look just like a centerfire rifle, but just make it under the wire as to the legal dfinition of muzzleloader/ primative weapon.

I have the feeling that you wont have to worry about  any such thing called a "Primative Weapons season" much longer anyway.
It's on the way out. The majority of hunters now look for the easier ways, the most convienent ways, and longbows, recurves, and sidelocks just don't fall into those catagories.
Very few new hunters or kids are interested in learning about these weapons or their history. They sure don't want to hunt with them because it handicaps them too much. No scope? only 100yd. max range? measure a powder charge? ARE YOU KIDDING?

I can hear the choir now, you can still use the traditional types, just let others choose what's right for them. And to the choir I say, OK, Alright, Don't be hypocritical, give everyone their own choice!
One deer season, from mid Sept. to mid Feb., Any weapon, any time for the entire season.
If you're really all about the freedom of choice, how can you not support this?


----------



## Torupduck (Feb 7, 2006)

I am waiting for guns that shoot lasers, then we could have the futuristic we all dream about.


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## Branchminnow (Feb 7, 2006)

toridak said:
			
		

> I am waiting for guns that shoot lasers, then we could have the futuristic we all dream about.


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## Crabapple Cove (Feb 7, 2006)

*Scopes on ML*

The season was set-up as pw, that wasn't good enough, had to have Zip-guns (inline), now scopes? I started shooting and hunting ML 30+ yrs. ago, still shoot sidelocks W/open sights today at 59yrs. People watch hunting shows (**) and think they can kill deer at 200 yds. W/scopes, they did on TV! Most people could'nt hit a VW Bug at 200 yds. even with a HP rifle! I guess after scopes on ML, next they'll want SPOT LIGHTS, that way can shoot deer over corn from 4 wheelers, won't have to work for it! What became of hunter-sportsman, now we have to many shooters only,( IF IT's BROWN IT's DOWN). My .02 worth.


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## NotaVegetarian (Feb 7, 2006)

Crabapple Cove said:
			
		

> The season was set-up as pw, that wasn't good enough, had to have Zip-guns (inline), now scopes? I started shooting and hunting ML 30+ yrs. ago, still shoot sidelocks W/open sights today at 59yrs. People watch hunting shows (**) and think they can kill deer at 200 yds. W/scopes, they did on TV! Most people could'nt hit a VW Bug at 200 yds. even with a HP rifle! I guess after scopes on ML, next they'll want SPOT LIGHTS, that way can shoot deer over corn from 4 wheelers, won't have to work for it! What became of hunter-sportsman, now we have to many shooters only,( IF IT's BROWN IT's DOWN). My .02 worth.



 
It is your choice to hunt with a side lock it is not mandatory that you do.  Adding scopes to muzzleloaders would just be one more option the individual would have.  It would be up to you as an individual to choose your options.  Nothing in the rules forces you to use a specific weapon, or weapon configurations; you are given the opportunity to choose for yourself.


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## orion1mdl (Feb 7, 2006)

toridak said:
			
		

> I am waiting for guns that shoot lasers, then we could have the futuristic we all dream about.



   Probably wont be as far off as one might think! Lazers, Motion sensor controlled weapons. Both armed and unarmed UAV"s.

   Ah, yes the future! Could be a buisness opportunity for someon with "vision". You could hire several crews and supply them vehichles so that guys that CHOOSE to do their hunting from thier livingroom via remote controlled equipment, could just call yhem up, give them the GPS coordinates where the kill is, and they could drive out to it, dress it, bring it back to butcher it, and mount the head.

   And the hunter never has to get off the couch! Maybe get some kind of hologram type of device so at least he colud feel like he was in the woods!

   Ah yes! the future!


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## Randy (Feb 7, 2006)

Well Branch,
You may get your wish.  Apparently House Bill 338 will be up for discussion tomorrow.


----------



## Randy (Feb 7, 2006)

NotaVegetarian said:
			
		

> Adding scopes to muzzleloaders would just be one more option the individual would have.



When will you guys understand that these special seasons are not about your options.  They were intentionally set aside to take away some of your options.  You have a season to use your options.  You can choose to participate in these "special" seasons within the regulations set or not, that is your option!!!!


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## PWalls (Feb 7, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> When will you guys understand that these special seasons are not about your options.  They were intentionally set aside to take away some of your options.  You have a season to use your options.  You can choose to participate in these "special" seasons within the regulations set or not, that is your option!!!!



Explain how compound bows were added to the original and traditional archery season.


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## Randy (Feb 7, 2006)

PWalls said:
			
		

> Explain how compound bows were added to the original and traditional archery season.



I can't.  I was not there to be involved in it.  It was well before my time.  Should not have been done.  If the regulations were originally for traditional bows only (and I have been told that but do not know for sure) then it should never have been changed.


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## Buzz (Feb 7, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> When will you guys understand that these special seasons are not about your options.  They were intentionally set aside to take away some of your options.  You have a season to use your options.  You can choose to participate in these "special" seasons within the regulations set or not, that is your option!!!!



By that token there should simply be a "hunting season" that runs from September 10 to Jan 1st.   Use whatever weapon you chose.  If you want to use a bow then fine, if you want to use a rifle then knock yourself out.


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## PWalls (Feb 7, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> I can't.  I was not there to be involved in it.  It was well before my time.  Should not have been done.  If the regulations were originally for traditional bows only (and I have been told that but do not know for sure) then it should never have been changed.


 
I'll agree with that.

However, following that logic, we would all still be using flintlocks.

First there was traditional bows. Then the hunting compounds came out. They were lobbied for and accepted as a legal weapon. Then hunting crossbows were made, lobbied for and now accepted as a legal weapon. First there was flintlocks. Then smokeless powder came out and cartridge weapons came out then scopes came out. All of those were lobbied for and now accepted as legal weapons.

You can't halt technology or progress. All you can do is set your own standard on what you will use. You have done that already. But, be thankful that someone lobbied before you that gave you the choice to make your standard as it is now.


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## PWalls (Feb 7, 2006)

7x57 said:
			
		

> By that token there should simply be a "hunting season" that runs from September 10 to Jan 1st.   Use whatever weapon you chose.  If you want to use a bow then fine, if you want to use a rifle then knock yourself out.



I imagine that will be the case before long.


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## Randy (Feb 7, 2006)

PWalls said:
			
		

> I'll agree with that.
> 
> However, following that logic, we would all still be using flintlocks.
> 
> ...



Again you miss the point.  We are not talking about legal hunting weapons.  We are talking about "special seasons."  All the weapons you named are legal during the "open" season.  we are talking about the special seasons set aside for the use of certain weapons and their limitations.  Removing the limitations of these "special seasons" means doing away with the reason for the "special seasons."  BTW, I am all for doing away with any special seaon as most have been degraded by approving of weapons that no longer have any limitations.


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## Branchminnow (Feb 7, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> Well Branch,
> You may get your wish.  Apparently House Bill 338 will be up for discussion tomorrow.


----------



## PWalls (Feb 7, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> Again you miss the point.  We are not talking about legal hunting weapons.  We are talking about "special seasons."  All the weapons you named are legal during the "open" season.  we are talking about the special seasons set aside for the use of certain weapons and their limitations.  Removing the limitations of these "special seasons" means doing away with the reason for the "special seasons."  BTW, I am all for doing away with any special seaon as most have been degraded by approving of weapons that no longer have any limitations.



Don't think I missed the point. 

Archery season was opened for tradional archery. Then along came the compound bows. They were lobbied to add them to the archery season (I assume they were legal during the open season). I feel safe in assuming that people back then thought that their inclusion was a degradation of the season. More recently we had the same thing happen with crossbows. The season was degraded (although that is a matter of opinion) when compounds were added and you and I benefitted from that. It was further degraded (again a matter of opinion) when crossbows were added and I benefitted again (since I hunt with either). Technology will always add options that hunters will try and incorporate and degrade the seasons. You have the choice to benefit from that at whatever level you want to.

If removal of all special seasons came up on the ballot and we had one long free-for-all season, I would vote for it.


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## GSU-34 (Feb 7, 2006)

One thing that everyone failed to mention is the number of game that are never found due to the open sites. I would rather see a scope get put on muzzleloader just to reduce the numbers of animals not found.


----------



## NotaVegetarian (Feb 7, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> Well Branch,
> You may get your wish.  Apparently House Bill 338 will be up for discussion tomorrow.


 Thank you Randy for this info.  Please keep us posted of the outcome.


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## Torupduck (Feb 7, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> When will you guys understand that these special seasons are not about your options.  They were intentionally set aside to take away some of your options.  You have a season to use your options.  You can choose to participate in these "special" seasons within the regulations set or not, that is your option!!!!


OK.  That is excactly right.  You said  "You can choose to participate in these "special" seasons within the regulations set or not, that is your option!!!"  If it passes are you gonna be ok with it because it is legal?  I dont think so.  You are still against crossbows even though they are legal.  Nobody makes you hunt with one but it still makes you boiling mad that they allow it.  Why?  It is in the regs so you should be for it!  I dont want to come across as a smart but but I swear some people are not happy unless everybody is forced to hunt the way they hunt.  That is wrong.  It is like a childish game on here sometimes arguing about who's way is better than the others.


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## orion1mdl (Feb 7, 2006)

GSU-34 said:
			
		

> One thing that everyone failed to mention is the number of game that are never found due to the open sites. I would rather see a scope get put on muzzleloader just to reduce the numbers of animals not found.



Not a very good arguement.

   That only speaks to the inability of someone to use a weapon within it's maximum lethal range and their own limitations.

   I see many using scoped high power rifles capable that are capable of killing out to 300 yds. and beyond, yet the shooters are are not capable hitting a 55 gal. drum at 300 yds.

   I promise you many, many more deer are lost due to inaccurate shots from scoped high powered rifle shooters than are lost to folks using traditional muzzleloading equipment.

   I'd really like to see some statistics on the archery comparisons also. I would tend to belive that fewer deer are lost by those who use recurves or longbows compared to compounds and especialy crossbows.
When I use to shoot a little 3-D archery, the folks that used the longbows and recurves seemed much more aware of their range limitations and handicap of arrow speed. If anyone knows where I might be able to lok up these comparisons, let me know please.


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## Just 1 More (Feb 7, 2006)

HEY,, leave archery out of this,,, This is a fight between the scopers and the non-scopers 
I didn't start this fight to drag archery in to the mud with it.. this has nothing to do with archery.. 
Don'y make me delete my own thread


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## Torupduck (Feb 7, 2006)

Just 1 More said:
			
		

> HEY,, leave archery out of this,,, This is a fight between the scopers and the non-scopers
> I didn't start this fight to drag archery in to the mud with it.. this has nothing to do with archery..
> Don'y make me delete my own thread


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## Just 1 More (Feb 7, 2006)

> What would be wrong with leaving the primative weapons season to the more traditional primative weapons, and making seperate seasons for muzzloaders and crossbows?


Not a thing


----------



## orion1mdl (Feb 7, 2006)

Just 1 More said:
			
		

> Not a thing


 You caught me post before I could delete it! 
After I posted it, I saw you're request to keep it on scopes and muzzleloaders, and I had included some archrery talk...so I scratched it.


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## Torupduck (Feb 7, 2006)

orion1mdl said:
			
		

> You caught me post before I could delete it!
> After I posted it, I saw you're request to keep it on scopes and muzzleloaders, and I had included some archrery talk...so I scratched it.


I got it in my email.  It was a well worded, well thought out post.  You should have kept it on there.


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## NotaVegetarian (Feb 7, 2006)

toridak if you have repost it for him, just clean up the wordy stuff, and leave out the cowboy comments...


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## Torupduck (Feb 7, 2006)

I would but it is not mine to do it with.  Orion if you dont mind i will.


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## DRHUNTER (Feb 7, 2006)

I agree that Muzzleloaders are not primative anyway. They should be called limited modern firearms. If it has a chemical propellant and a projectile that operates only if there is an explosion involved, then it's not primative. 

I think it is ethical to use a scope, because it will probably improve accuracy and will allow for less wounded deer.


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## Torupduck (Feb 7, 2006)

DRHUNTER said:
			
		

> I agree that Muzzleloaders are not primative anyway. They should be called limited modern firearms. If it has a chemical propellant and a projectile that operates only if there is an explosion involved, then it's not primative.
> 
> I think it is ethical to use a scope, because it will probably improve accuracy and will allow for less wounded deer.


That is a new spin on it that no one can argue with.


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## orion1mdl (Feb 7, 2006)

NotaVegetarian said:
			
		

> toridak if you have repost it for him, just clean up the wordy stuff, and leave out the cowboy comments...



   My deepest apologies for my being too "wordy" for you, and for using "cowboy comments" that have offended you.

   Do you have an ignore list? Please feel free to add me to it.


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## WSB (Feb 7, 2006)

I have been wanting the scopes on ML. to pass and have said so on this thread, but after reading Randy's replies to this thread I have been thinking  about what the week is really for, I know the modern ML is a far cry from primitive but  when you think about it, it is still more of a challenge than hunting with our scoped out rifles. So for me if it passes I am going to still hunt with my open sights. I am not saying everyone should feel this way, but after some thought it just feels right for me.


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## NotaVegetarian (Feb 8, 2006)

orion1mdl said:
			
		

> My deepest apologies for my being too "wordy" for you, and for using "cowboy comments" that have offended you.
> 
> Do you have an ignore list? Please feel free to add me to it.




No way, its more fun to read.  Free speech is for all not the few.


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## Randy (Feb 8, 2006)

toridak said:
			
		

> I dont want to come across as a smart but but I swear some people are not happy unless everybody is forced to hunt the way they hunt.  That is wrong.  It is like a childish game on here sometimes arguing about who's way is better than the others.



Let me say that yes I still have a problem with crossbows being legalized during archery season but I'll get over it at some point.  But I still use it as an example of how other special seasons can be degraded.  Let me say i do not want everybody to hunt my way.  I only want hunting to at least be left as it is.  With certain special seasons and the present limitaitons of those seasons.  I do not want any further degradation of those seasons.  I am not arguing that MY way is better.  Heck, I don't even own a muzzleloader.   I just hate to see our sport continually degraded with the changes in limitations (or lack there of) like crossbows, scopes on muzzleloaders and baiting.  I am not asking anybody to "do it my way."  I am only asking to leave it like it is.


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## NotaVegetarian (Feb 8, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> Let me say that yes I still have a problem with crossbows being legalized during archery season but I'll get over it at some point.  But I still use it as an example of how other special seasons can be degraded.  Let me say i do not want everybody to hunt my way.  I only want hunting to at least be left as it is.  With certain special seasons and the present limitaitons of those seasons.  I do not want any further degradation of those seasons.  I am not arguing that MY way is better.  Heck, I don't even own a muzzleloader.   I just hate to see our sport continually degraded with the changes in limitations (or lack there of) like crossbows, scopes on muzzleloaders and baiting.  I am not asking anybody to "do it my way."  I am only asking to leave it like it is.



Nice post Randy, good speech for Freewill


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## Torupduck (Feb 8, 2006)

Randy the only thing I dont understand, and people have given several explanations to no avail, is why not let technology give us a better chance of a clean kill?  If you want to hunt with a flint lock fine, but let those who would like the added assurance of a clean kill use a scope.  It doesn't raise your limit, just your odds.


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## Randy (Feb 8, 2006)

I don't know any other way to say this but....
This special season was started by those wanting to practice the special skills necessary to take game with a muzzleloader.  Not a long range in-line with a scope.  If you are not capable of making a clean kill within the limitations of the special season as it is set, then do not participate in that season.  You can use the in-line with a scope during the regular season.  Same as with the regular season.  If you are not capable of making a clean kill with any legal weapon during the hunting season, don't hunt.  Being inept is not a reason to change things.  Learn to use the weapon or do not participate!  


			
				toridak said:
			
		

> Randy the only thing I dont understand, and people have given several explanations to no avail, is why not let technology give us a better chance of a clean kill?  If you want to hunt with a flint lock fine, but let those who would like the added assurance of a clean kill use a scope.  It doesn't raise your limit, just your odds.


----------



## Torupduck (Feb 8, 2006)

Ok, so if you want to use a scope on a muzzleloader during PW season you are inept.  Judge not lest ye be judged yourself,  bro.


----------



## Randy (Feb 8, 2006)

toridak said:
			
		

> Ok, so if you want to use a scope on a muzzleloader during PW season you are inept.  Judge not lest ye be judged yourself,  bro.



You said that.  You said you wanted one to insure a clean kill.  There are many that can do it with the muzzleloader the way it is.

By the way I am not judging.  I wear bifocals and can not shoot an iron sited rifle.  I am one of those inept persons.


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## Torupduck (Feb 8, 2006)

Well, I am not going to argue with you Randy.  I am sure you are a nice guy but I just dont think you will ever be happy with any hunting regs.


----------



## Randy (Feb 8, 2006)

toridak said:
			
		

> Well, I am not going to argue with you Randy.  I am sure you are a nice guy but I just dont think you will ever be happy with any hunting regs.



I'll say it AGAIN.  I am very happy with them just the way they are right now.  I was even happier a few years ago when crossbows were not allowed during archery season unless you had a permit, but I can live with them the way they are rigth now.  IF you guys will agree to leave them the way they are till I die, which might not be too long, I will be very happy.  Thank you!


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## Torupduck (Feb 8, 2006)

Randy, you are not happy.  How has crossbow's affected your hunting?  They haven't!!  But post after post you rag on them.  Hunting laws will change as the times change.  As there are advancements in technology man will adapt to such changes.  But we both know I am wasting my time typing this because you are hard headed as a mule and you are not going to give an inch.  Sometimes I think you just like to argue but I am sure there are some out there that think the same of me.


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## Randy (Feb 8, 2006)

toridak said:
			
		

> How has crossbow's affected your hunting?



The same way scopes on muzzleloaders will affect muzzleloader season.  It takes away the special challenge of the reason for the season.  It allows those to inept to use the legal weapons to participate.  OK so that sounds greedy?

Well if the reasons for the seasons are going to be degraded to the most inept then why have the special season?

Let's take those that are disabled.  Since they have such a hard time trying to hunt within the present limitations set by the regulations, should we just allow them to hunt from the road and not have to get out of a car?  NO.  And they do not want it that way.  They work dang hard to participate within the regulations set.

(This is not meant to offend any disabled persons and I know we have some here.  I commend you for the challenges you take on to participate in this sport within the limitations set by the law.  I don't think I could do it.)


----------



## Torupduck (Feb 8, 2006)

Takes away from the special challenge of the season?!!

OK then there is only two possible things that I can take from that reasoning.

1) Some one is forcing you to use a crossbow.

2) The challenge of the hunt is to prove you are better than every one else around you rather than the challenge being to outsmart your game with your CHOSEN weapon.

Which is it?  If it is number one then you must be weak.  If it is number two then your hunting morales and mine dont agree, to say the least.


----------



## Randy (Feb 8, 2006)

IT AIN'T ABOUT ME!  It is about the sport and the special seasons and the degradation of them.  IT AIN'T ABOUT ME.  IT AIN'T ABOUT ME.  IT AIN'T ABOUT ME!  Can you hear me now?

NONE of it directly affects me.  It directly affects the sport and these special seasons.  I don't even own a muzzleloader.  But I will try and defend the muzzleloader season as I will try and defend the regular season from any changes there, even though it does not affect me directly.  I have my own land and my own lease, as such I can practice what ever regulations I want within the state's regulations.  But I will defend our sport, as it is, as long as it is under attack.


----------



## fredw (Feb 8, 2006)

Are you guys aware that the House Game, Fish, and Parks committee released the bill which would allow scopes on muzzleloaders during primitive weapons season during their meeting today?  It now moves from the committee.


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## Randy (Feb 8, 2006)

No, but thanks Fred.  I figured it will pass.  As with everything, it seems to be all about making it easier to take a deer now days.


----------



## Torupduck (Feb 8, 2006)

Randy, this is getting real old, real quick.  It is about YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU!!!  Can you hear me know?  As I have stated so many times, no one is forcing you to hunt with it, They are just offering another option.  If its not about YOU YOU YOU YOU then let people have thier options.


----------



## Torupduck (Feb 8, 2006)

God forbid it should be easy to make a clean kill.  It would take all of the sport out of it if the animal didnt have a sporting chance to sneak off wounded and die in peace.


----------



## Randy (Feb 8, 2006)

Why is it about ME when I want to leave it like it is and not about YOU when YOU want to change it?  I think it is about YOU YOU YOU YOU.


----------



## Torupduck (Feb 8, 2006)

It is about everybody that has a choice.  I agree with people having a choice.  I like to hunt out of a stand.  I feel it adds a challenge to hunting deer because you risk falling.  I am not going to say I think it should be a law just because I like it though.  I will leave that as my personal challenge.  If you CHOOSE to hunt from a blind or on the ground I dont care.  It doesnt affect me.

This is my last post on this debate with you my friend.  I sum it up as CHOICE.  As long as it is ethical and within the guidelines I have no problem with it.


----------



## Torupduck (Feb 8, 2006)

And there is nothing unethical about scopes.


----------



## Randy (Feb 8, 2006)

I am not stopping any choices.  You can choose to use a scoped muzzleloader during the regular gun season.  If we are going to agree to allow choices then why have special seasons?

If we are going to agree to allow special seasons, then let those that want to hunt during those season abide by the regulations imposed during those seasons.


----------



## hunter44a (Feb 8, 2006)

Randy, I have read many of your posts and agree with the majority of them. You are a TRUE HUNTER! I do have to say that Xbow hunters and Scoped ML hunters (in some cases) are part time hunters not willing to acquire the skills necessary to be "true hunters". But, I say lets welcome them. There's not that many of them. They don't pose a threat to the deer pop. and they add to the ranks of hunters and folks who support our pasttime. I used to be one bad dude with an iron sighted weapon, but my vision has affected me greatly. I still hunt with iron sights. I just don't know for how long. Hunting, Randy is my life. I live it breathe it, dream it. I am sure that I'm not the only one.                                                  Respectfully,  Andy


----------



## Cedar Creek (Feb 8, 2006)

Hunting Parties in loin cloth, with stone bladed knife and spears only...........

thats primitive, any takers????


----------



## Nicodemus (Feb 8, 2006)

Cedar Creek said:
			
		

> Hunting Parties in loin cloth, with stone bladed knife and spears only...........
> 
> thats primitive, any takers????



Nmae the time and place! Already got the gear.


----------



## Randy (Feb 8, 2006)

Andy, sounds as though we are very much alike.  Hunting is my life too.  I wish I was in the business but at least I have a good enough job that allows me to do about any kind of hunting I want to do.  I don't have a problem welcoming anybody in.  We need more hunters.  But what I see is a degradation of the sport.  First crossbows, then scopes on muzzleloaders, now baiting.  Maybe I am wrong, but we must draw a line somewhere.  Or else the sport will continue to degrade to where I will not enjoy it anymore and quit.  Baiting will probably do it for me anyway.  But what is your opinon?  Is there a point where we say enough changing of the sport?  Or do us "old timers" that like it the old way just let the new guys come in, change the sport and we get out of their way?  Maybe I am just getting to old but I sure did like it the way it was when I grew up, learning to read signs, learning to track, learning to hide, learning to shoot, learning to call game, figuring out where to put a stand that gave me the best possibility of taking the game.  Maybe I am just getting to old?


----------



## Nicodemus (Feb 8, 2006)

Randy, back in the 70s a lot of folks felt the same way about compounds that you feel about crossbows. So what`s the difference?


----------



## Randy (Feb 8, 2006)

nicodemus said:
			
		

> Randy, back in the 70s a lot of folks felt the same way about compounds that you feel about crossbows. So what`s the difference?


No difference.  I just happen to take up bow hunting after compunds were legal.  Had I done it before the 70's I would probaly been one of those guys too.


----------



## NotaVegetarian (Feb 8, 2006)

toridak said:
			
		

> It is about everybody that has a choice.  I agree with people having a choice.  I like to hunt out of a stand.  I feel it adds a challenge to hunting deer because you risk falling.  I am not going to say I think it should be a law just because I like it though.  I will leave that as my personal challenge.  If you CHOOSE to hunt from a blind or on the ground I dont care.  It doesnt affect me.
> 
> This is my last post on this debate with you my friend.  I sum it up as CHOICE.  As long as it is ethical and within the guidelines I have no problem with it.



Boy I am near about ready to adopt you.


----------



## hunter44a (Feb 8, 2006)

Randy, You're ok in my book. I don't like baiting at all. I do think that allowing Xbows and ML scopes will have a minimal effect and still allow the deer a sporting chance. Also, nothing wrong with a good clean kill afforded by a scoped ML. I've seen too many so called ML experts wound and miss deer. Perhaps if we allow scopes this may minimize this!? I will always think first about a humane kill rather than I would about having that SPECIAL SEASON. Sure, I would love to have the woods to myself by restricting the method of hunting. But, I don't want to be greedy. Let's share the woods! It won't matter Randy. Because the TRUE HUNTERS will always be the ones with the biggest and the most deer.   Andy


----------



## Torupduck (Feb 8, 2006)

We are starting to agr..  oops.. get along!!


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## NotaVegetarian (Feb 8, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> No difference.  I just happen to take up bow hunting after compunds were legal.  Had I done it before the 70's I would probaly been one of those guys too.



I was in the middle of them shouting matches back then.     But you guys probably figured that out.  Yeppers back then I hunted with a recurve bow, wooden arrows, and fixed broad heads. 

Today it is a 175lb compound crossbow with a scope, aluminum arrows (yes mine uses arrows not bolts), and expandable broad heads.  Randy I have my reasons for the crossbow. 

I do have an inline magnum muzzleloader with a scope mounted on it, ready to smoke a porker.


----------



## NotaVegetarian (Feb 8, 2006)

toridak said:
			
		

> We are starting to agr..  oops.. get along!!



    go figure


----------



## Al33 (Feb 8, 2006)

*I can assure you,......*

the archery maufacturers, both compound and crossbow, and the PW or BP manufacturerers would NOT like to see an all weapons season. Why? Because they know that most hunters would never take them to the woods when they can carry a scoped out BAR or other high powered rifle. Hunters today are not about the chalenge of the hunt, they are more about the easiest way to kill something, especially deer.


----------



## orion1mdl (Feb 8, 2006)

Al33 said:
			
		

> the archery maufacturers, both compound and crossbow, and the PW or BP manufacturerers would NOT like to see an all weapons season. Why? Because they know that most hunters would never take them to the woods when they can carry a scoped out BAR or other high powered rifle. Hunters today are not about the chalenge of the hunt, they are more about the easiest way to kill something, especially deer.



PRECISELY!


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## Bucky T (Feb 8, 2006)

"True Hunters."

Holy pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie!!

I'm stopping now.

Tommy


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## Timbo (Feb 9, 2006)

"Man,how simple can it get.If they legalize it and you don't agree then don't use one.If you agree then have at it".


I will just be Glad when they take all your guns away and make you start using spears.


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## Torupduck (Feb 9, 2006)

And loin cloths, right Timbo?


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## hunter44a (Feb 9, 2006)

"True Hunters."

Holy pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie!!

I'm stopping now.

BuckyT


Yer point???


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## orion1mdl (Feb 9, 2006)

Some of you guys just get way too defensive any time anything is said that doesn't appear to greenlight the "make it all legal" way of thinking.

   Can you point out anything in Al''s statement that isn't correct? The manufactures are in buisness to make money, and they are well aware that their market futures are in making products that make hunting easier, whether it's a new arrow rest that allows for much more shooter error,, newer, faster arrows, faster flatter shooting bows, "DrawLok" systems to put on a compound to hold the bow at full draw, scoped crossbows that feel and operate almost  the same as a regular rifle, muzzleloaders that use smokless powder and shotgun primers that extend the ranges, or high powered rifles and cartridges that make hunters think they can kill game at 700 yds.

   They are not in the buisness of keeping the challenge alive in hunting, as a matter of fact they spend millions on research and development figuring out ways to remove the challenge or skills required in order to keep their profits growing.

   That being said, there is no way that the manufactures would be happy if hunters were given the choice of what weapons they would use during  a deer season with no seperate archery , muzzleloader or primitive weapons season, because they know there would be very, very few bows or muzzleloaders or any of the related gear sold.

   I didn't see where Al was attacking anyones choice as to what they wanted to use, just pointed out something that I think is fairly obvious. The use of certain types of hunting equipment provide a certain level of challenge that most hunters today are not interested in dealing with.


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## NotaVegetarian (Feb 9, 2006)

orion1mdl,

You are correct Al spoke the truth, now do all of us want to hear it.


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## Timbo (Feb 9, 2006)

Originally by toridak




> And loin cloths, right Timbo?




"HAHAHAAHA, yea the kind that acts like dental floss".


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## Torupduck (Feb 9, 2006)

Timbo said:
			
		

> Originally by toridak
> 
> 
> 
> ...


     
That is a nasty thought but funny none the less!!


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## Bucky T (Feb 9, 2006)

Andy Baginski said:
			
		

> Randy, You're ok in my book. I don't like baiting at all. I do think that allowing Xbows and ML scopes will have a minimal effect and still allow the deer a sporting chance. Also, nothing wrong with a good clean kill afforded by a scoped ML. I've seen too many so called ML experts wound and miss deer. Perhaps if we allow scopes this may minimize this!? I will always think first about a humane kill rather than I would about having that SPECIAL SEASON. Sure, I would love to have the woods to myself by restricting the method of hunting. But, I don't want to be greedy. Let's share the woods! It won't matter Randy. Because the TRUE HUNTERS will always be the ones with the biggest and the most deer.   Andy



Maybe I percieved it wrong, but I agreed with everything in your post but the last part about "True Hunters" through me for a loop.

It seems that I took as anybody who chooses to hunt with a scope on their muzzeloader or with a crossbow aren't true hunters and lazy in the sense.  You said you didn't mind sharing the woods and that's a good comment, but the "True Hunters" bit seemed to me like a cheap shot aimed at guys who would like to use a muzzeloader with a scope or choose to hunt with a crossbow.

I hunt with a bow and a muzzeloader without a scope and will probably continue to do so even if scopes are allowed this season.

Hunters are hunters in my book.  No matter how they choose to pursue their quarry.

The only "True Hunters" I can think of are the native americans of the past who made their own weapons and modern day tribesman of Africa, South America, and other remote regions of the world who still make their own weapons from what mother nature has to offer.

None of us come close to being in this league if you ask me.

Sorry, but your comment sounded like a cheap shot to other hunters who might not pursue game in the method you choose.

Tommy


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## Bigtimber (Feb 9, 2006)

True hunters...man thats pretty strong words. Answer me this....you now hunt with a compound bow....have you ever upgraded to a better one? Say one that shoots alittle better or quieter. Ever changed or wanted to change the sights to upgrade every now and then when new products and technology came along? Why? To shoot straighter, longer range, ...all of it equals making things easier. You wouldn't go into the store and ask for the bottom of the line bow or muzzleloader with the most primitive features would you? Maybe you do  and consider everyone that doesn't not true hunters. A line should be drawn but most everyone is going down the same road....I welcome all hunters from all skill levels and weapon choices under the law getting involved and supporting hunting.....by the way I don't think it is the measure of a true hunter to kill the most and the biggest deer...I would hope you were just kidding.


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## hunter44a (Feb 10, 2006)

Whew!! Dang dudes the True Hunter thing was said tongue in cheek as indicated by the smiling emoticon. Noticed that I did want other hunters to be there with me. Sorry if I stepped on toes. I agree with you Tommy about what True Hunters really are. There is however a difference in how people are as hunters. Some look at it as an occasional getaway and others take it more seriously. I myself fall closer to the seriously side. Although I refuse to use tarsal gland lure as breath camo . Now thats extreme. I don't have a problem with scopes on M/Ls either. Crossbows are ok, just not my cup of tea. BIG TIMBER!!! Just kidding        Oh and BTW I have been thinking of going to a recurve.   Andy


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## Bucky T (Feb 10, 2006)

If that's the case, I apologize for my quick agitated response.

Alot of things going on here at Woody's have put me on edge the last few months and I took it the wrong way Andy.

Anyways, no hard feelings and good hunting.

Tommy


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## NotaVegetarian (Feb 10, 2006)

Too many things have been said in haste.  Adding the option to use scopes will not change a thing.  It did not hurt a thing when compound bows were added, it has not harmed anything by allowing crossbows.  Now I have noticed a few more hunters in the woods with crossbows, so maybe there was a positive side.  Maybe there will be a positive side to allowing scopes.


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## Randy (Feb 10, 2006)

NotaVegetarian said:
			
		

> Too many things have been said in haste.  Adding the option to use scopes will not change a thing.  It did not hurt a thing when compound bows were added, it has not harmed anything by allowing crossbows.  Now I have noticed a few more hunters in the woods with crossbows, so maybe there was a positive side.  Maybe there will be a positive side to allowing scopes.



Correct and it will not hurt a thing if baiting is allowed, or spotlighting or handgrenades or hunting from a truck or allowing as many bucks as a person wants to kill, or as many deer as a perason wants to kill or BLAH BLAH BLAH.


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## Al33 (Feb 10, 2006)

*Softball and Deer Hunting*

Not too far from where I live Cobb County built a girls softball park about 25 years ago. They did it to encourage more girls to get involved in the outdoor sports. The boys had little league baseball and football, so it only made sense to make a few opportunities and a place for the girls to play. I appreciate it too because both my girls played softball many years there and learned how to be team players. During this time a group of adult male softball players wanted to use the fields for their own games and raised such a rukus they got thier wish. The girls coaches then had to schedule their games and practices around the adult men's teams. There are three fields in the park, one of which is designed for the 6-8 year old girls. For obvious reasons, the big boys always took one of the other two fields and it was always the one with the nicest bleachers and best parking access. The girls were forced to a lower field far away from the concession and bathrooms.

What has all this have to do with Scopes on ML's? Everything. The State of Georgia gave an allotted period of time for hunters who preferred hunting by traditional or primitive methods and the big boys with their modern weapons want to play on thier fields. Isn't it enough the big boys already have most of the playing time to play by their own rules??? Obviously not.


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## Randy (Feb 10, 2006)

They don't care Al.  They say we are greedy by wanting this special season.  Same defenses or excusses use for allowing baiting.  Same excusses use by Democrats.

Treat everybody equally even if it means dumbing the system to the lowest inept person.


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## NotaVegetarian (Feb 10, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> * Same excusses use by Democrats*.
> 
> Treat everybody equally even if it means dumbing the system to the lowest inept person.



Man I am liking you more and more.


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## NotaVegetarian (Feb 10, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> Correct and it will not hurt a thing if baiting is allowed, or spotlighting or handgrenades or hunting from a truck or allowing as many bucks as a person wants to kill, or as many deer as a perason wants to kill or BLAH BLAH BLAH.



You have all of this now.  It doe's not make a hill of beans if you pour a pile of corn, in this case lets make that Soybeans, than back off ten feet and shoot them under a spot light.  I do like the grenade idea thanks we can probably work that one in next session.


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## deertracker1 (Feb 10, 2006)

What is the differnce in having a scope on a muzzleloader that will shoot 2 inch groups at a 100 yards and having one on a rifle. Maybe we should take scopes off the rifles also . IF you scout the land you are hunting and place your deerstand in the proper location you should never haver over a 50 yard shoot anyway.


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## Al33 (Feb 10, 2006)

deertracker1 said:
			
		

> What is the differnce in having a scope on a muzzleloader that will shoot 2 inch groups at a 100 yards and having one on a rifle. Maybe we should take scopes off the rifles also . IF you scout the land you are hunting and place your deerstand in the proper location you should never haver over a 50 yard shoot anyway.


Really none at all deertracker, but the REAL issue is not about scopes per se, it's about using modern weapons during a season originally established for those who prefer to hunt with primitive weapons. This is the REAL issue here. Personally, I could care less if someone wants to put a scope on a sling shot and I do not buy into this more humane shots logic. For goodness sake, everyone look at our lengthy deer season and see just how much of it is open to any weapon, scoped or not. It simply blows my mind that so many want more than they already have. I suspect envy is the culprit. Heck fire, it ain't fair than someone else can hunt sooner than I can because I don't want to hunt the way they do.


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## QuakerBoy (Feb 10, 2006)

Al33 said:
			
		

> . Heck fire, it ain't fair than someone else can hunt sooner than I can because I don't want to hunt the way they do.




Yep....that bout sums it up...you need to hunt how I do or there's something wrong with ya....


oh yeah...and they may end up killin all mydeer


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## Torupduck (Feb 10, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> Correct and it will not hurt a thing if baiting is allowed, or spotlighting or handgrenades or hunting from a truck or allowing as many bucks as a person wants to kill, or as many deer as a perason wants to kill or BLAH BLAH BLAH.


Here we go again.


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## How2fish (Feb 10, 2006)

rpaul11 said:
			
		

> Yep....that bout sums it up...you need to hunt how I do or there's something wrong with ya....
> 
> 
> oh yeah...and they may end up killin all mydeer



Been out of town a week and it's keeps on tickin'


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## Bigtimber (Feb 10, 2006)

Andy Baginski said:
			
		

> Whew!! Dang dudes the True Hunter thing was said tongue in cheek as indicated by the smiling emoticon. Noticed that I did want other hunters to be there with me. Sorry if I stepped on toes. I agree with you Tommy about what True Hunters really are. There is however a difference in how people are as hunters. Some look at it as an occasional getaway and others take it more seriously. I myself fall closer to the seriously side. Although I refuse to use tarsal gland lure as breath camo . Now thats extreme. I don't have a problem with scopes on M/Ls either. Crossbows are ok, just not my cup of tea. BIG TIMBER!!! Just kidding        Oh and BTW I have been thinking of going to a recurve.   Andy



Sorry if I came on hard...figured you were just funnin around ...I take hunting pretty serious as well....just trying to make a point about weapon advancement...I'm no expert in archery but would think that it has progressed like anything else...better arrows, better sights, longer range, and would suspect that most compound bow users keep up pace as much as there budget allows...I would think the hunter that chooses to back up (like going to a recurve) or stays exactly where they started with there weapon technology they started with are the ones that have some room to protest. Other than that going down the same road....thinking about it really..you would think some are the ones that view it as a compotition of sorts, not wanting anyone to be better or have an edge over them...a battle with others instead of battle with ones self...so to speak.
   I can see were some are coming from with degrading the season until it has losed its meaning....but if your upgrading your weapon of choice with every advancement  possible or wish you could...your on the same road....little slower but you will get there...


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## Al33 (Feb 10, 2006)

*If I may get off topic for a moment:*

Very rarely do we see a thread with a controversial subject as this last this long, 230 posts. Overall, it has gone very well and I just wanted to commend all for keeping it in bounds. Good job everyone.


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## TurkeyCreek (Feb 10, 2006)

Al33 said:
			
		

> What has all this have to do with Scopes on ML's? Everything. The State of Georgia gave an allotted period of time for hunters who preferred hunting by traditional or primitive methods and the big boys with their modern weapons want to play on thier fields. Isn't it enough the big boys already have most of the playing time to play by their own rules??? Obviously not.


Al,
that's is the best explanation I've seen about the way I feel on the subject. Good Job!!!!


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## Dub (Feb 10, 2006)

Cedar Creek said:
			
		

> Hunting Parties in loin cloth, with stone bladed knife and spears only...........
> 
> thats primitive, any takers????



Sounds more like what I envisioned "Primative" weapons season like....


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## NotaVegetarian (Feb 10, 2006)

Al33 said:
			
		

> Very rarely do we see a thread with a controversial subject as this last this long, 230 posts. Overall, it has gone very well and I just wanted to commend all for keeping it in bounds. Good job everyone.



I think this one has done very well.  We have opinions from all sides.  QDM’ers have their spill, The anti-baiters with another view, the bahumbug no-changers , then the guy guys that don’t see a problem with offering another option .  Then there is the folks who are going to ride the fence .  Did I leave anybody out?  

PS.

Great job guys keeping this one peaceful.


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## Nicodemus (Feb 10, 2006)

You left out just one. Those that don`t give a hoot either way!


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## hunter44a (Feb 11, 2006)

I just wanted to add that I have always been in favor of crossbows and MLs with scopes. I use a lot of different weapons while hunting, trying to take advantage of the special seasons or areas requiring them. Another thing that I would like to see is adding straight walled handgun cartridges to the small game weapons list. How many of you have had a 9mm or .38 strapped on and saw a rabbit or something and couldn't take it because it wasn't legal.  Andy


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## hunter44a (Feb 11, 2006)

I  noticed something in the hunting regs. There is no stipulation requiring scopes on MLs during PW hunts ONLY during PW SEASON. Reckon its legal to use scopes during THESE hunts? AB


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## Dub (Feb 11, 2006)

I know that our neighbors in South Carolina allow scoped smokepoles during the "Primative Weapon" seasons....how about other states?

I wonder how it developed for them.  Did they always allow scopes or was it something that came about later on?

I'm not getting too wrapped around the axle about this one....just don't mess with archery only season...unless you want to expand it, that is. I enjoy this quiet time in the woods and it's become just about the only time I hunt WMA's.  After that the blaze orange scares me.  I see too dang many hunters enter the woods without binoculars.  "I don't need binos....I've got this whizbang optical monstrosity high mounted on my rifle".  Same ingrate is also panning around looking through his scope.  I will personally stomp a mudhole in anyones backside and walk it dry if I ever see them panning around in my direction!!!!!

Oh well....I think I'm getting off track.   Where was I,....oh yeah...PRIMATIVE WEAPON = SPEARS AND ROCKS....AND HILLARY CLINTON'S LOOKS.


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## Lostoutlaw (Feb 11, 2006)

Oh well....I think I'm getting off track.   Where was I,....oh yeah...PRIMATIVE WEAPON = SPEARS AND ROCKS....AND HILLARY CLINTON'S LOOKS.[/QUOTE]
 AMEN


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## orion1mdl (Feb 11, 2006)

Dub said:
			
		

> I know that our neighbors in South Carolina allow scoped smokepoles during the "Primative Weapon" seasons....how about other states?
> 
> I wonder how it developed for them.  Did they always .


 
   In Colorado, in-lines are legal, you must use a round ball or conical which can't be longer that twice the diameter of the projectile. No pyrodex pellets. No sabots. No smokless powder. And no scopes
   This is for muzzleloading season.


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## hunter44a (Feb 12, 2006)

Hillary Clinton's looks would be considered a weapon of mass destruction


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## TurkeyCreek (Feb 12, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> No, but thanks Fred.  I figured it will pass.  As with everything, it seems to be all about making it easier to take a deer now days.


Randy....You got that absolutely right!!!


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## TurkeyCreek (Feb 12, 2006)

Al33 said:
			
		

> the archery maufacturers, both compound and crossbow, and the PW or BP manufacturerers would NOT like to see an all weapons season. Why? Because they know that most hunters would never take them to the woods when they can carry a scoped out BAR or other high powered rifle. Hunters today are not about the chalenge of the hunt, they are more about the easiest way to kill something, especially deer.


Bingo....Bingo....

Yep, the commercialization of the sport (in alot of areas) has had more to do with bringing down the sport than anything.

Al.. for most its just about having 1 more week to shoot deer.

I've been ML hunting with my Hawken since the early 80's. I eyesight is not so good these days, but I can still see good enough to hit a deer at 40-50 yards through open sights. So that's what I limit myself to.


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## Timbo (Feb 12, 2006)

"I still vote on we all use spears,but this is just me".


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## mikey (Feb 13, 2006)

Anybody heard the status?


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