# Born that way?



## Artfuldodger (Nov 22, 2015)

I was born with imputed sin or original sin.  My only hope was for the stain of this sin to be wiped clean by the blood of Christ.

Now before my effectual calling, original sin bound my will.
Now some believe that after our calling & acceptance, all sin is done by choice. Before no, after yes.

What does regeneration do in regards to the curse of original sin? If I didn't have a choice to obey God before regeneration, do I have a choice after regeneration?

I understand Christ removes the penalty of Adam's original sin. I'm not sure what this does to our sinful nature. I don't think it is removed it in an instant.

What prevents me from walking after the flesh? 
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Rom. 8:1)

If I was set free in Christ, am I 100% truly free? 
Even if I was born that way?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 22, 2015)

If our sin is the result of imputed sin, is Christ's righteousness imputed within us? Maybe it's just infused.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 22, 2015)

Does being born that way give us any type of excuse vs choosing to sin? Isn't the outcome the same?
Doesn't election/salvation take care of both?


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## gordon 2 (Nov 22, 2015)

We are ever tormented by sin, before and after our calling. After our calling if we accept we have a compass that otherwise we could only guess at.   And that compass is   Christ Jesus, all of Him. My judge is my advocate. Good situation. And I have a darn good teacher to booth!

What's all this impute, outpute, infusion about anyway... do I need to know about this? My teacher and king never brings it up?


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## formula1 (Nov 23, 2015)

*Re:*

You are free in Christ through His rich love that God has given!  Exercise that freedom, motivated by Love for your heavenly Father, and put on the mind of Christ.  It takes a lifetime!

Ever thought about this? The simple fact that you battle within shows the Holy Spirit in you working to make you new! Would a man even care about his sin without the Holy Spirit?


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## hobbs27 (Nov 23, 2015)

The imputed sin, or original sin, is the sin that fell upon Adam and his descendants. All the way down to the Israelites. They were in covenant with God , but the Covenant demanded death. 
 Jesus defeated that original sin, offers a new covenant, not of death, but one of life eternal. He covers imputed sin. We are made in His image at regeneration, and while we may disobey His commands ( sin), that sin is not imputed onto us, and His grace covers it.

That's not a permit to sin as you wish, our sins are dealt with, but being made now in His image, we will not die from them as Adam did, in the day he took of the fruit.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 23, 2015)

John 5:24King James Version (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I believe this condemnation we are saved from is the death that originated from Adams sin.

And is verified in Romans 8.
Romans 8King James Version (KJV)

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


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## Israel (Nov 24, 2015)

Jesse James: [Bob walks in on Jesse in the bath] Go away.
Robert Ford: Used to be nobody could sneak up on Jesse James.
Jesse James: Now you think otherwise?
Robert Ford: I ain't never seen you without your guns, neither.
[Jesse removes a towel, revealing his gun]
Jesse James: [pause] Can't figure it out: do you want to be like me or do you want to BE me?
Robert Ford: [defeated] I'm just making fun is all.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 24, 2015)

For me Jesus defeated original sin by restoring a direct relationship with Him again for all those who believe. Our homeland is our kingdom, the one provided to us by Jesus Savior. For all the fabric of our born again nature,  the alienating effect of original sin is defeated through Jesus' ministry of grace.

 Even by faith, in all honesty, I must admit that I can and do sin not unlike Adam and Eve did, yet by faith I have known lots of progress as from no Eden am I chased away as Adam, and Eve were. I am a work in progress-- a prodigal son bent on cleaving to his father.

I have confessed grave sins with great regret, with tears, with almost hatred of myself, but through Jesus, from Him, I was not pushed away. Just the opposite-- I am carried nearer to Him. Eden is just a breath away. And  as all the heavens rejoiced for my repentance -- which joy is sincere-- I am carried away from original sin--from sin nature to the nature God intends for me.

"Boots on the ground and follow me..." My Lord demands a walk in faith and leaving everything behind His heart informs me. And leaving everything behind in some cases means even leaving scripture, and all the theology, behind-- like in this post.

Art, the only thing that keeps you walking in the "flesh" is you and the company you keep. The reverse is true also.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 24, 2015)

Why am I guilty of something I didn't choose to be born with?

What if I never act on my sinful nature? Am I still guilty of Adam's sin?

Having a choice doesn't seem to matter much when it comes to sin or salvation. I don't like the idea of not having a choice in my
eternal fate as it relates to original sin. Oh well since when does it matter what I like. It is what it is. Not my plan and not my rules.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 24, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why am I guilty of something I didn't choose to be born with?
> 
> What if I never act on my sinful nature? Am I still guilty of Adam's sin?
> 
> ...




You and I are born just like every Gentile in history has been born. Not guilty of Adams sin, but not in covenant with God.
 We must be born spiritually into Gods family, this is where by grace through faith comes in. It also proves ( predestination) is a sham, God predestined certain people for certain things but eternal life is to ( whosoever will ) and that is the Good News!!!


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## gordon 2 (Nov 24, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why am I guilty of something I didn't choose to be born with?
> 
> What if I never act on my sinful nature? Am I still guilty of Adam's sin?
> 
> ...




Maybe it is because for the most part people (believing or not) know what is right and wrong and have guilt when they do wrong. This clumsy happenstance is due to the effect of the fallen world perhaps. ( In the unfallen world people would not have any such issues.)

I never felt guilty for anyone else's sin, but my own.

I find I had a choice regards my "eternal fate" as you say. At a certain point in my life I decided to take responsibility for my spiritual life. I decided to work on my born again nature and not take it for granted. So I started to work at it by faith with very little expectation really. To my great surprise and amazement it was not long before I was handed a closet in the kingdom. I try to keep it clean and free of cobwebs. Although He comes when things are not so tidy, I have pride in what the world could not give me. I was given what exactly I asked for, although I knew not it's precise reality- or what is now real about it  to me.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 24, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> You and I are born just like every Gentile in history has been born. Not guilty of Adams sin, but not in covenant with God.
> We must be born spiritually into Gods family, this is where by grace through faith comes in. It also proves ( predestination) is a sham, God predestined certain people for certain things but eternal life is to ( whosoever will ) and that is the Good News!!!



I was under the impression that big stone fireballs ( about 50 lb each) were gona fall from heaven on your area this evening. 


But for this post I'm now told it is all cancelled.

 Phew! That was close.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 24, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> I was under the impression that big stone fireballs ( about 50 lb each) were gona fall from heaven on your area this evening.
> 
> 
> But for this post I'm now told it is all cancelled.
> ...



I have narrowly escaped that almost every day of my life.


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## hawglips (Nov 24, 2015)

I believe that men are accountable for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.


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## welderguy (Nov 24, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why am I guilty of something I didn't choose to be born with?
> 
> What if I never act on my sinful nature? Am I still guilty of Adam's sin?
> 
> ...



I'm glad I didn't have a choice in my salvation because I would have made the wrong choice.
I say this because "there is none good,no not one."
"All we like sheep have gone astray".
"No one can come to me except the Father,which sent me draw him..."

My coming to Him is the result of His choosing me;not the other way around.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 24, 2015)

hawglips said:


> I believe that men are accountable for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.



So you weren't born that way but chose sinning by choice?

What part did Adam have in making you accountable for your sins? 

Do you believe you had sinned before being born a man?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 24, 2015)

Maybe man is only accountable for his sins after salvation. No that's not so because Jesus died for those sins. He wiped the slate clean.

Maybe man is only accountable for his sins before salvation. No that's not possible if man was born with no choice but to sin and/or is so depraved he can't help but to sin.


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## Israel (Nov 24, 2015)

He who is forgiven much, the same also loves much.
Still seems this mercy matter is something the Lord wants "to get around".
Yes, the sin. But there is something that so far eclipses it when received, that makes it take its proper place...not remembered.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 25, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe man is only accountable for his sins after salvation. No that's not so because Jesus died for those sins. He wiped the slate clean.
> 
> Maybe man is only accountable for his sins before salvation. No that's not possible if man was born with no choice but to sin and/or is so depraved he can't help but to sin.



Man is accountable and has the knowledge of sin in all his spiritual natures.


Jesus was killed by man, the worldly, and yet he became alive again ( for the heavenly) so that our spiritual nature could focus on the heavenly, in lieu of the worldly.

Jesus is our priest in the heavenly. His intersession now in the heavenly and on earth( he still sits with the sinners)  as we speak, on earth that is to say in and through the church and through the saints via the Holy Spirit.

He is agreeable that the worldly should be converted to the heavenly through his grace of giving man a "born again spiritual nature focused on the heavenly" and that all sinners who sincerely repent should know his comforts where they will not be chased away by Him.

And all sinners does not only mean sinners who are "to the world" only, but those that are to the heavenly as well. For these, as you know, are not immune to sin.

Paul says that saints need to run their race. In that race the resistance is the world and it is easy to focus on that resistance and act from it's principles even when trying to defeat it, yet when we race we race with the faith of saints which having been formed with origin in our born again nature and having its genesis in the power of the breath of God which we sometimes, even saints, doubt and then fall short of the finish.

(PS. Focus on the depraved man of the reformation is fun, like a Halloween scarecrow, our minds can resurrect  and ever reconstruct him to do all kinds of jigs and gigs, but I'm not sure he ever existed as we know him in the mind of Jesus and his disciples. Out of the  same fields were the reformation staked it's scarecrow some saints before the days of Jesus were taken up to heaven bodily, Good Samaritans roamed the roads and some got to appear in the said transfiguration. Go figure.)


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## hobbs27 (Nov 25, 2015)

Are you not free from sin? Rejoice in our victorious Savior Jesus Christ which has freed us from sin, no more accepting the low road, ( I'm born to sin), no more sorrow for what you have done. Rejoice in what Christ has done!


Romans 6

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.


21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2015)

Free from sin, yes, but what does my sin have to do with Adam? Why did sin enter through Adam and somehow Adam's sin makes me born that way? 
Why was I born with a sinful nature? I'm just trying to understand why I was born that way.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 25, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Free from sin, yes, but what does my sin have to do with Adam? Why did sin enter through Adam and somehow Adam's sin makes me born that way?
> Why was I born with a sinful nature? I'm just trying to understand why I was born that way.



I don't think you were, so I can't answer.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2015)

For some reason I thought just by being born a man I needed salvation from eternal death. That somehow it was connected to Adam. Is there any connection between Adam's sin and my ability to sin?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2015)

What about Gentiles from foreign lands that weren't descendants of Adam? If man's ability to sin is somehow inherited through Adam's lineage.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 25, 2015)

Without commandment there is no sin. Adam was in Covenant and under a law from God.
 Seth was under a law and Seth's descendants. Gentiles were not, but had an open invitation to join Gods people.
 Moses law was a written law and was handed down through the generations to Jesus. Their sin was atoned through animal sacrifice annually. The curse of the Law was on their genealogy, therefore they all sinned , from Adam to Jesus.
 Being in Adam was ( born into the Law) being in Christ was ( born again into grace). Now there is no Jew nor Gentile, now we are all born out of covenant , but enter covenant through Gods grace, actively in relationship with Christ, obedience to Christ is righteousness, disobedience is sin, and is dealt with through the HS...Not death.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2015)

Yet we are all born condemned. Even the people born in foreign lands that have never heard of God. We are all without excuse.
If Adam was but the first man in covenant with God, then there were people living that weren't guilty of sin. There was people living that weren't of Adam's lineage. 
If the flood was local then perhaps it only killed the people of Adam's lineage. 
Either way there could be people that are not from Adam.

Yet sin entered the world through one man. I don't blame Adam. If it was me I would have done the same as Adam. I was born that way. Being born that way or having a choice doesn't really matter.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2015)

Israel said:


> There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,



"all have sinned." Why?

Was it because Adam sinned? What if I was the first Adam? Wouldn't I have sinned just as Adam? Would it really have mattered who the first man in covenant was?

There is no difference between choosing sin and being born that way. 
Adam was a "type." A figure of him who was to come.

Yet Jesus being born a man, wasn't born that way. Unless he was and he overcame temptation that Adam couldn't. 
So if I was born a condemned sinner, why wasn't Jesus?
Unless his death/resurrection saved himself and me.

Maybe I wasn't born that way but chose to become a sinner. Even the best most righteous person in the world isn't good enough. Christianity isn't about us being good enough. It's about believing in Jesus. Salvation is believing Jesus was good enough and died for our sins.

It was never about me being good or evil. Was it about me being born into sin? Who am I without the Holy Spirit? Who am I if none are good? If I was born dead, apart from even knowing God. Spiritually dead.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 25, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yet we are all born condemned. Even the people born in foreign lands that have never heard of God. We are all without excuse.
> If Adam was but the first man in covenant with God, then there were people living that weren't guilty of sin. There was people living that weren't of Adam's lineage.
> If the flood was local then perhaps it only killed the people of Adam's lineage.
> Either way there could be people that are not from Adam.
> ...



How could a man be condemned by God that is not of Gods chosen? Do you think God picks and chooses who is born to be condemned and who is born to everlasting life?
 If so what good is the Gospel, and what value to man did the cross serve?


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## Israel (Nov 25, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> "all have sinned." Why?
> 
> Was it because Adam sinned? What if I was the first Adam? Wouldn't I have sinned just as Adam? Would it really have mattered who the first man in covenant was?
> 
> ...



I don't know if you are asking...or simply expounding on the thoughts provoked. Nevertheless, the remedy for whatever may trouble us...in our minds with questions, in our deportment and dispositions, the cure far outweighs and outshines any and all. That these things may have, as an end, the beginning and end of all (alpha and omega)...will surely work to their displacement.

Basically...even if from "our" standpoint everything had to go as "wrong" as possible for Jesus to be manifest...His manifestation impoverishes all our misadventures and whatever we may think as of consequence.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2015)

Israel said:


> I don't know if you are asking...or simply expounding on the thoughts provoked. Nevertheless, the remedy for whatever may trouble us...in our minds with questions, in our deportment and dispositions, the cure far outweighs and outshines any and all. That these things may have, as an end, the beginning and end of all (alpha and omega)...will surely work to their displacement.
> 
> Basically...even if from "our" standpoint everything had to go as "wrong" as possible for Jesus to be manifest...His manifestation impoverishes all our misadventures and whatever we may think as of consequence.



Simply expounding on the thoughts provoked. I do understand the cure far outshines understanding the reason the cure was needed in the first place.

That being said, I feel if I know where I came from, I can better understand where I'm going. 
If I was "born that way" or "chose that way" matters not as the cure works on both.

"But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ."

Sin came into the world through one man and the cure came in the form of another man.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> How could a man be condemned by God that is not of Gods chosen? Do you think God picks and chooses who is born to be condemned and who is born to everlasting life?
> If so what good is the Gospel, and what value to man did the cross serve?



Of what value is the Gospel to those who never hear it? I don't know the answer but are you asking if God condemns those he didn't choose?
If we were all born without salvation then we were born condemned. If we are born needing salvation then aren't we born condemned? Didn't sin coming into the world through Adam have something to do in condemning us to eternal death and separation from God?

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Is this pertaining to people who have heard the Gospel and believed not or every Gentile in the foreign lands?

Who has God already condemned?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2015)

If the Gentile wasn't condemned by sin because he wasn't in covenant like the Jews, why was the Gospel mystery "Good News" to them?

The men who were already on the Earth when God created his covenant with Adam? How did Adam's sin affect their sin nature or sin imputation?

The Gentiles had to be born condemned also because if they weren't then they wouldn't have needed salvation.

Maybe this is a key;

Romans 5:14-15
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15But there is a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ.

Didn't Adam's sin bring far more death to more individuals than the Gift of Jesus will save? Yet we know and must understand this is God's plan.
Adam's gonna take out a lot more than God will choose.

In the grand scheme of God's plan, sin isn't that bad as it produced both "types" of man, first Adam and then Jesus. Without Adam's type, Jesus's type wouldn't be needed. Sin served it's purpose.
Sin has condemned us but in God's plan we have salvation. Since the coming of Jesus Christianity has turned from sin to salvation. Jesus brought grace to a once condemned multitude. But still not everyone will be saved. Adam took out more than Jesus will save. It's God's plan.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2015)

If man isn't born that way, then why would Gentiles who were never under the Law, sin? How could they be condemned and thus need salvation? Especially if they had never even heard the Gospel. 
Yet Paul's purpose was to teach them the mystery. That they too could now be granted salvation. They weren't born with salvation.
Paul states that death reigns even over those who had not sinned like Adam. 

For some strange reason to me, Adam's sin somehow opened the floodgates and turned us all into sinners. Perhaps Adam's sin didn't make us born that way but it sure made us become that way. 
Either way, we become that way, condemned and separated from God. We are born spiritually dead. We are born needing salvation because of death's reign. Even those who didn't sin like Adam did.


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## Israel (Nov 26, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Simply expounding on the thoughts provoked. I do understand the cure far outshines understanding the reason the cure was needed in the first place.
> 
> That being said, I feel if I know where I came from, I can better understand where I'm going.
> If I was "born that way" or "chose that way" matters not as the cure works on both.
> ...



But you are not now "what you were"...are you?

And...what remains of memory of detour...has that taught you something about your Father that you might not have known otherwise?
He who is forgiven much, the same also loves much.
Would we "love much"?
(Tell me what is better than living "in love"?...is it sacrifice noted, efforts required, long and arduous attempts to grasp at something...or something else, not easily...or even with many labors apprehended?)

I didn't really set out to discover what a total wretch may learn, and is learning...and now sees, that what "is not" (which by the hand of Him who "calls things that be not as though they were") Godly in any sense has a place prepared.

Now, to him who works the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt...


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2015)

1 Corinthians 15:21
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

Many verses on death coming through one man and life coming through one man.

Reading back in Romans 5, I had said that Adam takes out more than Jesus can save. Reading further in Chapter 5 we read this in verses 17-18;

17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 

I'm wondering who the "all" were. Through Adam "all" were condemned. Through Jesus "all" received justification of life.

Why doesn't "all" mean everyone? I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean all will be saved yet it does mean all will die if not justified.

Let's continue on;

Romans 5:19-20;
19Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.
20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Verses 19 uses "many" instead of all. Many will become sinners because of Adam, many will be made righteous through Jesus.

Can we safely say that through Adam came spiritual death to all and that through Jesus many will be saved? I think so by using other scriptures.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2015)

Does grace now abound?

Romans 5:21
So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God's wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If grace rules why is there still sin? Why even with the dwelling of the Holy Spirit do Christians still sin? I do understand that our sins are washed and our slates wiped clean but why do we still sin?
Sin was to show we needed Jesus. If we accept Jesus then one would think we have learned our lesson of sin's purpose.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2015)

Why is evil so strong? The whole world is evil. Even babies have to learn to live a Christian life. Even babies bite, spit, have fits of anger, cheat, steal, are filled with jealously, and on & on. 
I'm not sure if the whole world is born depraved but it sure seems like it is. No one is good. No one is righteous. Even the bible tells us how evil and sinful man is. Even Christians struggle with hate, anger, lust, adultery, drunkardness, jealously, gossip, & pride.
No matter how hard we try we can't live right and need salvation.

To me this shows that sin or sinful nature is a very strong force to be reckoned with. So strong that it affects the whole world. It makes us born separated form God. It makes us born spiritually dead. 
Sure we might have some choice or perhaps we aren't totally depraved but sin isn't something that we can overcome. It definitely is connected to Adam. It even affected people not born into a covenant with God. It even affected Gentiles.

We must come to the realization that sin came into the world through one man type A and salvation came int the world through one man type B.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 26, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why is evil so strong? The whole world is evil. Even babies have to learn to live a Christian life. Even babies bite, spit, have fits of anger, cheat, steal, are filled with jealously, and on & on.
> I'm not sure if the whole world is born depraved but it sure seems like it is. No one is good. No one is righteous. Even the bible tells us how evil and sinful man is. Even Christians struggle with hate, anger, lust, adultery, drunkardness, jealously, gossip, & pride.
> No matter how hard we try we can't live right and need salvation.
> 
> ...



Evil and sinful are different, I think you just combined them in your equation.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Evil and sinful are different, I think you just combined them in your equation.



You are correct, sin is a moral evil.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2015)

Ephesians 2:1
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

I said earlier that we couldn't do anything about sinning. We were doomed. Just by being born a man we were bound to sin. Maybe the spirit by the name of "the prince of the power of the air" was working on the sons of disobedience. We were actually dead in our transgressions but made alive by God's grace. We were raised or resurrected with Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Without commandment there is no sin. Adam was in Covenant and under a law from God.
> Seth was under a law and Seth's descendants. Gentiles were not, but had an open invitation to join Gods people.
> Moses law was a written law and was handed down through the generations to Jesus. Their sin was atoned through animal sacrifice annually. The curse of the Law was on their genealogy, therefore they all sinned , from Adam to Jesus.
> Being in Adam was ( born into the Law) being in Christ was ( born again into grace). Now there is no Jew nor Gentile, now we are all born out of covenant , but enter covenant through Gods grace, actively in relationship with Christ, obedience to Christ is righteousness, disobedience is sin, and is dealt with through the HS...Not death.



Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Do you believe "all" in the above verse means "all" that is in covenant with God? Adam's trespass resulted in condemnation for all people in covenant?

Aren't we "all" now in covenant with God since the cross/resurrection/second coming?

Oh, you mean we(Gentiles) weren't in covenant when Adam sinned. Then again Paul said this to the Romans when Gentiles were in covenant.
The grafting of the Gentiles placed them in covenant with God.
They became a part of the "all."


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2015)

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Again Paul is using the word "all." All will die and all will be made alive. If all means in Adam all will die, why doesn't all mean in Christ all will be made alive?

Some people believe "all will be made alive" means all will be resurrected. I don't think so because Paul said it like this in.....  

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.


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## Israel (Nov 27, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does grace now abound?
> 
> Romans 5:21
> So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God's wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
> ...



The "accepting" of Jesus is the matter. And I cannot dare go into this matter without "back-up" so to speak. Not that I need it for your convincing at all, but for my own necessity of understanding, as your question goes to the very heart of what it means to be found as a man before God.
Presumption (always linked arm in arm...or better breast to breast with pride, as in a dance) was wisely recognized by our brother David in his prayer, 

Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

Our brother Paul, if we believe him to have received anything of truth, of the Lord's life, of the reality of God's intent and purpose in Jesus Christ, was not beyond having to deal with matters of sin, immaturity, particular presumptions and prejudices that were troubling.

He prayed for some "till Christ be fully formed" in them.

To some came stiff rebuke in succumbing to prejudices,
almost sarcastically asking "was Paul crucified for you?"

Some, whom imagined themselves now "masters of the universe" were probed:

For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? You are already filled, you have already become rich, you have become kings without us; and indeed, I wish that you had become kings so that we also might reign with you.

And we all know of our brother's dealings with the Galatians.

Surely these accounts validate your question's relevance and apparent piercing contradiction "how can any accept the one who frees them from sin, and still find themselves entangled?"

We may do well to remember, not only Paul's misgivings and troubles...but his responses, never forgetting these things are both chronicled by Paul...and in one very real sense...were happening before Paul, to Paul (though ultimately they are to the Lord)...but here is what I find most important, FOR Paul. For in his seeking to be obedient to the life (that is true life) he could not be spared the experiences of that life, that HE might truly know it. 
He would have to know what being sent meant. He would have to learn that here, his own motives would be revealed as impoverished ("who is equal to such a task?" he asked) till his bedrock, in himself, and for himself was found utterly unshakable. Regardless of weakness, of frailty, of manifest and now apparent insufficiency of self effort, Christ triumphs.
We do not want to be "troubled". Ever. But to, as you said "accept Jesus (Christ)" is to also accept all the contradiction against himself in his endurance; to be fully armed, not only in preparation but in embracing his suffering 

"Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,"

To the same end as Paul discovered:

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

When we are troubled (and rightly so) by the revelation of sin where it ought not be, we may ask ourselves before God (as a man before God) is it my eye clouded? Am I less single of eye than I presumed so that this abasement comes to sight?
We may find our vision has been severely impaired by our preoccupation with our own self, what "it" sees, what "it" knows, what "it" assumes and presumes.
And there, perhaps, if grace abounds to us through any of the Lord's word, we may be pleased to discover we are never "farther ahead" than the one we may be inclined to identify as the most laggard and impoverished. And then perhaps...stopped in waiting, dead "in our tracks", hung out to dry as a sign, a signal, nothing more than for another to be warned, encouraged, rebuked or comforted (depending upon the eye they have been granted, or as Paul understood "how they 'nose' us") that indeed, the last shall be first, and the first, shall be last.
And the caring of any of it, the responsibility of all of it...is not in our own eye. 

For we know we are seen by the One who is both first...and last.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 27, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 5:18
> Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
> 
> Do you believe "all" in the above verse means "all" that is in covenant with God? Adam's trespass resulted in condemnation for all people in covenant?
> ...



The Gentiles were grafted in here post Jesus' ministry on Earth. They were grafted in once death had been defeated. This was in the already, but not yet period. The Law was still active and so was grace.

Look at this verse in Romans 5:13... Without law there was no imputed sin...without being under the law ( Gentiles) they were not judged by the law and imputed sin. They were not Gods people at that time, yet even then they had the option to ( choose!) To be.

13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> The Gentiles were grafted in here post Jesus' ministry on Earth. They were grafted in once death had been defeated. This was in the already, but not yet period. The Law was still active and so was grace.
> 
> Look at this verse in Romans 5:13... Without law there was no imputed sin...without being under the law ( Gentiles) they were not judged by the law and imputed sin. They were not Gods people at that time, yet even then they had the option to ( choose!) To be.
> 
> 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.



Hobbs, I'm not sure I'm quite following what you are trying to show. Can you give me a short(or long) description of how you see sin entering the world and who it affected? Who was the "all" that was condemned by Adam's sin and who was the "all" that was granted justification and life for all people?

Where there is no Law, there is no sin. Yet it is mentioned in the Bible that through one man death came to "all."
If Adam was the first "type" and Jesus was the second "type," what is the connection? What if Adam had not sinned but his son did or his grandson? 

When Adam was chosen for covenant there were other people living on the Earth. They were not in covenant with God. What affect did Adam's sin have on them? For our other members on the forum, same question to the Gentiles who weren't under the Law? How did Adam's sin affect them? Were they part of the "all" affected by Adam's sin.

Later there was a local flood that destroyed all the people in covenant with God except Noah. Did the flood change anything to do with Adam's sin and the descendants of Noah? What about the people left on the earth in foreign lands that weren't affected by the flood?

If Jesus defeated death & Satan on the cross, why is sin still present? Evil being different, why is evil still present even after the 2nd coming of Christ?

Last, why do we dwell on sin as Christians if our sins were washed away? If our slates were wiped clean? If none are good? If there is no way we can live with or without the Holy Spirit and stop sinning?
The whole purpose of sin was to show us we needed Jesus. If Jesus died for our sins and granted us salvation from eternal death, why am I still worried by my sins?
In fact it is actually said that Christians don't sin. Meaning because Christ died for us to say that.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 27, 2015)

Art, we do sin. Our sin is covered and we are dealt with by our Lord, not separation or the second death which is for those not of Christ.

Think of it like this:
 God formed a Nation and wrote a Constitution of law when He brought Adam into Covenant. He provided a place for Adam where all his needs were met and made him a living soul by communing with him.

 Adam broke the law and lost his home, and relationship with God. God cast him out, and made a way for him to pay the interest on the debt owed by animal sacrifice.. ( God clothed them in animal skins). Jesus clothes us in righteousness. See Adam faced death, even after physical death he was held in Hades, there was not eternal life in the old covenant..Adam, Abraham, Moses all had to await Christ and the resurrection to finally have eternal life and be in the presence of God.
 Adams family continued in Covenant but not direct relationship because the sin imputed on Adam and his people kept them separated. People outside Adams lineage could come in but they too would be susceptible to the Law. People outside the Kingdom of God and Adams lineage could not sin against God because they were not in covenant with God..

 If a Canadian commits armed robbery and murder in Canada, they are not subject to the laws and punishment of the state of GA...likewise they are not eligible for the benefits of living in the state of GA.

When Christ came to reconcile man to God , His sacrifice put an end to all sacrifice, not only did He cover the interest on the debt due, He paid the debt in full. He also broke down the genealogical connection to God...no more was a man born into the Law, no more was a man born into original sin, no more should a man be " born again", but be born once into Gods people.  A way has been made Salvation, there is no longer Jew or Gentile.


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## Israel (Nov 27, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, we do sin. Our sin is covered and we are dealt with by our Lord, not separation or the second death which is for those not of Christ.
> 
> Think of it like this:
> God formed a Nation and wrote a Constitution of law when He brought Adam into Covenant. He provided a place for Adam where all his needs were met and made him a living soul by communing with him.
> ...



I am not sure I understand this in light of this:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 28, 2015)

Quote;
People outside the Kingdom of God and Adams lineage could not sin against God because they were not in covenant with God..(end quote)

Did these Gentiles that didn't join the covenant have salvation from eternal death? If they weren't in covenant and could not sin because of this, how did it affect their separation from God spiritually? 
When Christ came and  broke down the genealogical connection were the Gentiles finally apart of Israel/Church? When there was neither Jew or Gentile. What was it like before Christ came for the Gentile concerning life, death, separation form God, and strangers to the covenants?

Ephesians 2:11–12
“Wherefore remember, that you, being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.”


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## hobbs27 (Nov 28, 2015)

Israel said:


> I am not sure I understand this in light of this:
> 
> Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever.



( Born Again ) literally means born from above. Since Gods chosen are no longer born physically into His family , we are all once born from above into Gods people...If we are born from above at all.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 28, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> ( Born Again ) literally means born from above. Since Gods chosen are no longer born physically into His family , we are all once born from above into Gods people...If we are born from above at all.



I'm not quite following you. Once God's chosen were once Jews? Now we are born again into the Church? A man is no longer born into original sin? I can see your point in that we are not born under the Law. Therefore where there is no Law there is no sin.

But to say this has something to do with being born again, I'm not sure. To me we are born once of water(physically) and the later born again as spirit. Why would Nicodemus say must I again enter my Mother's womb if he thought Jesus was telling him he must be born from above?

Maybe "anew" is better.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"


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## hobbs27 (Nov 29, 2015)

Nicodemus, " teacher of the Jews" was born into a physical Kingdom, physically circumcised into it. They were looking for the Messiah to restore their physical Kingdom, to rid it of Roman rule.
 They had it wrong, and Nicodemus to see the Kingdom of God , He and the Kingdom must have been born again... Or born from above.

1 Corinthians 15:46

 There is no longer a physical kingdom, but a spiritual Kingdom has come and it is in that , which we must be born into.

 I'll try to clarify more later when I'm at home and out of these mtns.


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## Israel (Nov 29, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> ( Born Again ) literally means born from above. Since Gods chosen are no longer born physically into His family , we are all once born from above into Gods people...If we are born from above at all.


 I don't think Jesus was saying anything but what you have said, in the above. Not that it is not worthy of reiteration, always, but that it does seem to be a little at odds with your previous statement as to:



> no more should a man be " born again", but be born once into Gods people.




I don't think any one here, but I can ultimately only speak for myself, believes there's a "being born twice" into God's Kingdom through the faith of Jesus Christ.

Is there a birth of flesh that is to make way for a birth in the Spirit? I believe it is true that "first birth", first nature of flesh, of the earthy, regardless of a man's esteem of it, means nothing. That which is born of the flesh...is flesh...

(Both pertaining to any particular man, and also...the essence/nature of all pertaining to any particular man, i.e. thoughts, words, deeds)

As Paul said, "for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation;"

Those who trusted in God's choosing of them (as we may all take heed) will either show forth the truth of God...or be found, to our dismay and the Lord's displeasure as those "resting on our laurels"...that peculiar pitfall of flesh that is pride...not knowing this is precisely what opposes the revelation of Jesus Christ, and the exact opposite of the obedience of faith...or that which is "boasting in the Lord".
(let he who boasts...)

We take "our stand" on (perhaps!) so many things...seemingly of God till, like the blind feeling their way...our eyes begin to be opened. Our souls becoming informed by the spirit, we then come to loathe them, as each may be displayed as the impoverished and fraudulent things they are.

Christ shows his victory over all, our religious disposition, our inclination toward an unjust balance, our benighted thinking that exalts itself in whatever form that would say to both God, and the world, "lucky for you I am here".

What we do and say to another shows our heart toward God. And either God's heart to "that other", or something elses.

I don't believe Paul was using hyperbole when he said:

For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

I believe he saw and heard this from, and in, another. And learned it well.


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## welderguy (Nov 29, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> How could a man be condemned by God that is not of Gods chosen?



Simple.Because those that are not God's chosen do not,and cannot believe.Therefore they are condemned already.

John 3:18
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."




hobbs27 said:


> Do you think God picks and chooses who is born to be condemned and who is born to everlasting life?



Yes.

John 15:16
" Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

Notice,these are the ones that are described as His "friends",that He lay down His life for.(vs.13)
" Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."





hobbs27 said:


> If so what good is the Gospel, and what value to man did the cross serve?




Mark 16:15-16
" And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be dam ned."

Those that are chosen shall believe,and will be baptized with the Holy Ghost and "sealed unto redemption" (Ephesians 4:30).

The cross,rather the dying on the cross,is what atoned for the sins of the elect,and washed them away forever.

That is the good news!


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Simple.Because those that are not God's chosen do not,and cannot believe.Therefore they are condemned already.
> 
> That is the good news!



How did Adam's sin affect the Elect? How did it affect the non-elect?


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## Israel (Nov 29, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> How did Adam's sin affect the Elect?


It has given them every opportunity to rejoice in the One who has forgiven it. And has now given them the life that is dead to it.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 29, 2015)

Israel said:


> I don't think Jesus was saying anything but what you have said, in the above. Not that it is not worthy of reiteration, always, but that it does seem to be a little at odds with your previous statement as to:
> 
> 
> I don't think any one here, but I can ultimately only speak for myself, believes there's a "being born twice" into God's Kingdom through the faith of Jesus Christ.
> ...




I stand by my statement, we are not in the same time as they were, we are living in the hope they were looking for.


I believe Peter was writing to those of the remnant that Paul and his cohorts had found and baptized by "calling them out" of the ten tribes which had been previously dispersed and swallowed up by the Gentiles over the previous 700 years (cf. 2 Pet. 3:1 & 15-16 w/ Hos. 8:8). So...

Those to whom Peter was writing were Israelite Gentiles, so to speak, who had been "born again" (per what Jesus said to Nicodemus about the wandering Israelites of that last generation [John 3:1-12, note plural "you" in vv. 7 & 12]) and were at that point and through espousal-purification/sanctification (cf. 1 Pet. 1:22) becoming the full-grown, mature, complete, yea perfect church-bride of/for Christ (cf. 1 Pet. 2:1-10, esp. present tense of v. 5). So...

They, who had physically been born into the Old Covenant family of God (1 Pet. 1:1) ... but were lost nonetheless due to their wandering off from Him ... had, through obeying the truth (1 Pet. 1:22) of the preaching of the gospel (1 Pet. 1:25), been born again (1 Pet. 3:21) into the kingdom of Christ('s) blood (1 Pet. 1:19) thereby demonstrating that they were the elect ones (1 Pet. 1:2), i.e. those sheep of Christ's fold who belonged to Him because they heard and heeded His voice (John 10:16 & 27 and context).


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## welderguy (Nov 29, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> How did Adam's sin affect the Elect? How did it affect the non-elect?



Romans 3:22-23
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The point being made here is that ALL have sinned,regardless of being under the law or not.There is no difference.
But,righteousness is upon all that believe(imputed righteousness).It's by faith....but..

"All men have not faith"(2 Thess.3:2)


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## hobbs27 (Nov 29, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Romans 3:22-23
> 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
> 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
> 
> ...



Explain sin without law.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 29, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> How did Adam's sin affect the Elect? How did it affect the non-elect?



We are the non elect, it has no bearing on us.

The elect was a group of people from Christ's ministry to 70 ad. There's been no elect since .
 The whole idea that men are predestined to salvation minimizes the Cross to a useless physical act.


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## welderguy (Nov 29, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Explain sin without law.



Let's take Cain for example.

1 John 3:12
"Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."

Was Cain condemned? Yes. Because he was "of that wicked one."


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## welderguy (Nov 29, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> We are the non elect, it has no bearing on us.
> 
> The elect was a group of people from Christ's ministry to 70 ad. There's been no elect since .
> The whole idea that men are predestined to salvation minimizes the Cross to a useless physical act.




Rom.9 says the children having not yet done good or evil,that the PURPOSE OF ELECTION might stand,not of works ,but of Him that calleth.

Seems to me that election had a purpose far before Christ's earthly ministry and 70 AD.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 29, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Rom.9 says the children having not yet done good or evil,that the PURPOSE OF ELECTION might stand,not of works ,but of Him that calleth.
> 
> Seems to me that election had a purpose far before Christ's earthly ministry and 70 AD.



The question would be , election of what? . Noah could have been elected to build an ark, that doesn't mean he was part of the elect.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 29, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Let's take Cain for example.
> 
> 1 John 3:12
> "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."
> ...



Cain wasn't condemned because he was of the wicked one, he was condemned because he broke the law.( Sinned )..there was law before Moses....  When he slew Abel.


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## welderguy (Nov 29, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> The question would be , election of what? . Noah could have been elected to build an ark, that doesn't mean he was part of the elect.



It wasn't the building of the ark that made Noah an elect(for by grace are ye saved,and that not of works lest any man should boast).

Gen.6:8 says "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."
It also says in verse 9 "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."

The only way Noah had any justification was through Jesus Christ.It's simply the ONLY way.

Acts 4:12
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Rom.8:30 applied just as much to Noah as it does to any of the elect of God:

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 29, 2015)

welderguy said:


> The only way Noah had any justification was through Jesus Christ.It's simply the ONLY way.



Noah found grace in the eye of the Lord.
Noah walked with God.

Yet Noah was not saved, Noah did not have eternal life, because Christ had not made eternal life obtainable yet.

 When Noah gave up the ghost, Noah went to Hades in Abraham's bosom and awaited the resurrection of the " dead ones"_   Which was made possible only by The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

To say Noah had eternal life before the Cross, To say anyone is saved at the foundation of the world ..is to say there is a Salvation and a way of eternal life that does not involve the Cross.. 

 That is my problem with predestination, it makes the Cross a mere symbolic jesture, and totally negates the necessity of the shed blood....I mean, who needs it if you were born with it?


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## welderguy (Nov 29, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Noah found grace in the eye of the Lord.
> Noah walked with God.
> 
> Yet Noah was not saved, Noah did not have eternal life, because Christ had not made eternal life obtainable yet.
> ...



The blood of the cross reaches all God's elect,past present and future.The things you are having trouble with are no trouble at all when you understand that concept.
Jesus was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."(Revelation 13:8)

So that this...:

Heb.11:7
" By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the RIGHTEOUSNESS which is BY FAITH."

....applies to Noah as well as us.

Read this verse and insert Noah's name in place of "we":

Rom.5:6
" For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."

The key is "in due time".


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## hobbs27 (Nov 29, 2015)

No No:





welderguy said:


> The blood of the cross reaches all God's elect,past present and future.The things you are having trouble with are no trouble at all when you understand that concept.
> Jesus was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."(Revelation 13:8)
> 
> So that this...:
> ...




 I'm not going to insert Noah into the ( we ) of that verse because audience relevance matters.

 Believe it or not, there was a time before the blood was shed, there was a time before eternal life...the resurrection Paul claimed as the Hope of Israel!  Israel awaited this , as Martha made clear concerning Lazarus, I know he will rise in the last days...There's a reason they were dead and not in Gods presence.. There's a reason Samuel was raised from the dead and told Saul he would be with him the following day. There's a reason Jesus said no man had been to heaven but the Son....


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## gemcgrew (Nov 29, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Believe it or not, there was a time before the blood was shed, there was a time before eternal life...


There is no "time before" with God.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I stand by my statement, we are not in the same time as they were, we are living in the hope they were looking for.
> 
> 
> I believe Peter was writing to those of the remnant that Paul and his cohorts had found and baptized by "calling them out" of the ten tribes which had been previously dispersed and swallowed up by the Gentiles over the previous 700 years (cf. 2 Pet. 3:1 & 15-16 w/ Hos. 8:8). So...
> ...



I read somewhere that the lost Jews were now Gentiles and Gentiles are now Jews. Something along the lines of the lost tribes being assimilated into Gentiles and Gentiles grafted onto the Olive Tree. The Jews  rejected God so the Church became the New Israel which is full of Gentiles.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2015)

Now I know that many including most reformed believers see no differences in time. They only see grace and the time of the events aren't important. The "time" of Christ's death is unimportant as "time" is unimportant. 

If this is true then what does Ephesians 2:12-14  mean?

12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.  14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

It appears there was a time when we weren't all one body in Christ. There was a time gentiles were separate from Christ, having no hope and without God. Yet at the moment in time that Christ died they were brought near. This event in "time" made both groups one.

Romans 11 confirms this event in that there was a remnant of Jews save but we read;
Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. Their loss means riches for the Gentiles, their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, they now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

This was an event in "time."


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## hawglips (Nov 29, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> So you weren't born that way but chose sinning by choice?
> 
> What part did Adam have in making you accountable for your sins?
> 
> Do you believe you had sinned before being born a man?



I believe that we all sin, by virtue of who we are.  Adam's transgression made my existence as a human possible, and allowed me the opportunity know good from evil, and to choose for myself.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2015)

hawglips said:


> I believe that we all sin, by virtue of who we are.  Adam's transgression made my existence as a human possible, and allowed me the opportunity know good from evil, and to choose for myself.



1 Cor. 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." 

It's almost like just because Adam sinned we're all gonna die.
I can't put my finger on it or wrap my brain around that concept. His sin doing something to make me sin.
The above verse makes it sound like I have no choice in this death except to accept Jesus.  
Because of Adam, I have no choice but to sin. Isn't this why I need salvation?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Cor. 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
> 
> It's almost like just because Adam sinned we're all gonna die.
> I can't put my finger on it or wrap my brain around that concept. His sin doing something to make me sin.
> ...




Jesus is reported to have said that for God all are alive.

"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."( Luke 20:38)

 I have heard brothers of ours say that Adam's fall was a fall from Grace,  or a spiritual death from being directly in the presence of God and therefore because of Adam's sin we  the descendants of Adam are dead to an intimate union or communion with God-- until its restoration by Jesus and the ministry of the Christian Church.

That none come to the Father except through Jesus does not mean that non Christians are not spiritual beings with some knowledge of God and that He does minister to them as he ministered to Adam and all mankind after the fall.

That none come to the Father except they are born again and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit ( which is through Christ) who guides believers in their new communion with God--seems to me a spiritual restoration from the death of an intimate relationship between man and God to new beginnings in that sometimes overwhelming relationship. And it is overwhelming because as renewed beings a new perspective is gained not only of our Father, of Jesus, of the Holy Spirit and the Church, of the presence and the heavenly, but also of the world and in our interactions with it,  and the possibility to again fall, not unlike Adam, from Grace. Perhaps.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Cor. 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."



An observation here. Most Christians today say all men were dead in Adam..Not as I have said, that only those of Seth's genealogy.

Then here is the problem, using the verse above, if literally all men are dead in Adam then literally all men are made alive in Christ.
 UNIVERSALISM ¡!!!! 
 You can't avoid it if you take a literal interpretation of all men here.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 1, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> An observation here. Most Christians today say all men were dead in Adam..Not as I have said, that only those of Seth's genealogy.
> 
> Then here is the problem, using the verse above, if literally all men are dead in Adam then literally all men are made alive in Christ.
> UNIVERSALISM ¡!!!!
> You can't avoid it if you take a literal interpretation of all men here.


Go back one verse and start over.


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## welderguy (Dec 1, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> An observation here. Most Christians today say all men were dead in Adam..Not as I have said, that only those of Seth's genealogy.
> 
> Then here is the problem, using the verse above, if literally all men are dead in Adam then literally all men are made alive in Christ.
> UNIVERSALISM ¡!!!
> You can't avoid it if you take a literal interpretation of all men here.




1 Cor. 15:22
" For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."


When Adam ate the forbidden fruit,that very day,he began to die.His body began to age.

Gen.2:17
" But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.".
(thou shalt surely…: Heb. dying thou shalt die).


When Christ comes the second time,all men will be resurrected(made alive).


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## hobbs27 (Dec 1, 2015)

Gem, Welder... It makes no difference if I go back one verse.
 If all men die in Adam...All men are made alive in Christ. It's universalism, plain and simple...unless you want to make an unbibilical claim that the Condemned are made alive ( IN CHRIST ).

 If that's your stance I can show biblical where you are wrong.


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## welderguy (Dec 1, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Gem, Welder... It makes no difference if I go back one verse.
> If all men die in Adam...All men are made alive in Christ. It's universalism, plain and simple...unless you want to make an unbibilical claim that the Condemned are made alive ( IN CHRIST ).
> 
> If that's your stance I can show biblical where you are wrong.



Universalism is the belief that all people will be saved.
I do not believe that.I believe in election and limited atonement.

Regarding 1 Cor.15:22, it certainly involves every human being because it's refering to physical death of the body and physical resurrection of the same body,which will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

"We shall not all sleep,but we shall all be changed..."


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Corinthians 15:21
> For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
> 
> Many verses on death coming through one man and life coming through one man.
> ...



I had brought this up earlier.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I had brought this up earlier.



Sorry I missed that, according to my wife I've been in the woods too much lately.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 1, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Universalism is the belief that all people will be saved.
> I do not believe that.I believe in election and limited atonement.
> 
> Regarding 1 Cor.15:22, it certainly involves every human being because it's refering to physical death of the body and physical resurrection of the same body,which will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.
> ...



 In Christ all shall be made alive....In Christ  all  shall be made alive.
 The condemned are not In Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Corinthians 15:22
> For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
> 
> Again Paul is using the word "all." All will die and all will be made alive. If all means in Adam all will die, why doesn't all mean in Christ all will be made alive?
> ...



If "all" will die, will "all" be made alive?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Sorry I missed that, according to my wife I've been in the woods too much lately.



No problem, tell your wife, I agree.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> In Christ all shall be made alive....In Christ  all  shall be made alive.
> The condemned are not In Christ.



If so then we are not of the elect becasue in Adam all will die. One can't be born condemned and elected.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Romans 3:22-23
> 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
> 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
> 
> ...



Again "all" have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.  How does this line up with the Elect which we know haven't come short of the glory of God?
Can someone be born condemned and of the elect?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 1, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Gem, Welder... It makes no difference if I go back one verse.
> If all men die in Adam...All men are made alive in Christ. It's universalism, plain and simple...unless you want to make an unbibilical claim that the Condemned are made alive ( IN CHRIST ).


Paul already explained who the "All in Christ" are in 1 Corinthians 1. It is not the same total. Your forcing of universalism is unfounded.


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## welderguy (Dec 1, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> In Christ all shall be made alive....In Christ  all  shall be made alive.
> The condemned are not In Christ.



As I said before,"all shall be made alive" is referring to physical resurrection of the just and the unjust.(all human beings)....remember Jesus told Martha "I am the resurrection".

In Jesus(resurrection),all shall be made alive.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> Paul already explained who the "All men made alive in Christ" are in 1 Corinthians 1. It is not the same total. Your forcing of universalism is unfounded.



Did he explain it to the Christians in Rome?

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Did he explain it to the Christians in Rome?
> 
> Romans 5:18
> Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.


Of course.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2015)

welderguy said:


> As I said before,"all shall be made alive" is referring to physical resurrection of the just and the unjust.(all human beings)....remember Jesus told Martha "I am the resurrection".
> 
> In Jesus(resurrection),all shall be made alive.



If it meant the resurrection why was it related to Adam's one tresspass? Why did one righteous act result in "justification" and life for all people? The resurrection didn't bring justification and life.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> Of course.



What verse?


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## hobbs27 (Dec 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> If so then we are not of the elect becasue in Adam all will die. One can't be born condemned and elected.



Of course we are not of the elect. No one alive today is.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> Paul already explained who the "All in Christ" are in 1 Corinthians 1. It is not the same total. Your forcing of universalism is unfounded.



If the "all" made alive was "all in Christ," then who was the "all" condemned by Adam's sin? The non elect?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> If it meant the resurrection why was it related to Adam's one tresspass?


Death.


Artfuldodger said:


> Why did one righteous act result in "justification" and life for all people?


All of Christ's people?
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."


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## gemcgrew (Dec 1, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Of course we are not of the elect. No one alive today is.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2015)

Romans 5:19-20
19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Now it's not "all" but "many." In verse 20 the same "many" made sinners by the "one" will be made righteous by the "one."

It's the same group.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 1, 2015)

welderguy said:


> As I said before,"all shall be made alive" is referring to physical resurrection of the just and the unjust.(all human beings)....remember Jesus told Martha "I am the resurrection".
> 
> In Jesus(resurrection),all shall be made alive.



In Christ....all shall be made alive...you keep dropping the In Christ.

 In Adam is death
 In Christ is eternal life.
 I have eternal life in Christ. The Israelites of the old covenant was dead in Adam.
 Some were born from above..( born again) into the new covenant of life!

Death reigned from Adam to Moses... Now life reigns in Christ.


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## welderguy (Dec 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Again "all" have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.  How does this line up with the Elect which we know haven't come short of the glory of God?



The elect are included in the "all".It's only by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ that the elect can glorify God.Remember,"and such were some of you".





Artfuldodger said:


> Can someone be born condemned and of the elect?



Yes.The elect were condemned through Adam,but justified through Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> Death.
> 
> All of Christ's people?
> "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."



So the "all made alive" is whom, "all in Christ" or "all at the resurrection?"

Who was the "all" that Adam's sin condemned?


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## hobbs27 (Dec 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 5:19-20
> 19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
> 
> Now it's not "all" but "many." In verse 20 the same "many" made sinners by the "one" will be made righteous by the "one."
> ...



Amen!


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2015)

welderguy said:


> The elect are included in the "all".It's only by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ that the elect can glorify God.Remember,"and such were some of you".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So every man, "all" were condemned through Adam and "all" will be justified through Christ but now it's a different "all." 
I'll definitely have to study this concept more.


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## welderguy (Dec 1, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> In Christ....all shall be made alive...you keep dropping the In Christ.
> 
> In Adam is death
> In Christ is eternal life.
> ...



I didn't drop the "in Christ",I said "in Jesus"....same thing.

Go back and read the whole chapter(1 Cor. 15) and get the context.It's the resurrection.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> So the "all made alive" is whom, "all in Christ" or "all at the resurrection?"
> 
> Who was the "all" that Adam's sin condemned?


"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead."
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Resurrection. 
Do not confuse being resurrected by Christ, as being in Christ.


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## welderguy (Dec 1, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead."
> "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
> Resurrection.
> Do not confuse being resurrected by Christ, as being in Christ.



Amen.
Thanks Gem. That's what I've been trying to say for the last hour.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 1, 2015)

To be resurrected, one is brought from death to life. Old covenant Israel died in Adam and was raised to life in Christ.
 Now you understand the resurrection of the dead ones. Which was the hope of Israel.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> So every man, "all" were condemned through Adam and "all" will be justified through Christ but now it's a different "all."
> I'll definitely have to study this concept more.



All all's are not all alike....


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead."
> "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
> Resurrection.
> Do not confuse being resurrected by Christ, as being in Christ.



I'm trying not to. Which verses in Romans and Corinthians are showing where "all" means "all in Christ" and which verses in Romans and Corinthians are showing where "all" means "resurrected by Christ" in reference to Adams sin?

Who was the "all" that Adam's sin condemned?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 2, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> All all's are not all alike....



And sometimes "all" changes to "many."

Romans 5:19-21
19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Did the grace of God trump the many sinners brought about by one man's disobedience? Did grace abound all the more? Were more saved by grace than sin condemned?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 2, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> To be resurrected, one is brought from death to life. Old covenant Israel died in Adam and was raised to life in Christ.
> Now you understand the resurrection of the dead ones. Which was the hope of Israel.



Amen, resurrected to life through Christ vs eternal death caused by sin.
The penalty of sin is death.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 2, 2015)

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Art..do you see a problem with the above text as it is taught by futurist?  * hint* the seed and when its sown.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 2, 2015)

I see a few things but not the seed. Please explain. Do you mean sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption?

I see God gives it a body as He pleases. Could be used for election but if a body is sown in corruption how was it elected until it is raised in incorruption?  If resurrection is spiritual then how can we take on incorruption if it means waiting for a physical resurrection?
How can we be born again or from above if it's spiritual if we must wait for a physical body?

In the above verses I see no mention of bodies being resurrected in corruption as will happen at a future bodily resurrection. In other words at the future resurrection all bodies will be resurrected, the corrupt ones and the incorrupt ones. Yet the above scripture says It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. Again no raising of bodies doomed for eternal death. No resurrection of corrupt bodies.
Actually no raising of any natural bodies.

OK Hobbs, what about scriptures that say the dead in Christ will rise first and then those doomed for He!!? I think I recall reading about that. Maybe in Sunday School as a child.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 2, 2015)

What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.

So a seed is sown, then it dies, but futurist and folks that believe this is about physical bodies would have us believe, the seed dies and then is sown ie. physical body in casket.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 2, 2015)

It could still be a "Resurrection of all in Christ" only even if in the future.

"According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

I'm beginning to see what Gem was saying "all" means "all in Christ."
All in Christ will be made imperishable. All in Christ will be made incorruptible. All in Christ will resurrect regardless of what resurrect means. 

The dead in Christ will rise first and then the living in Christ will be called up to meet them. No mention of a resurrection of the corrupt, only the "all in Christ." 
Eternal death for those who were never reborn a spiritual body. They will suffer a spiritual death. No resurrection.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 2, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> OK Hobbs, what about scriptures that say the dead in Christ will rise first and then those doomed for He!!? I think I recall reading about that. Maybe in Sunday School as a child.



When Christ returned the dead in Christ received the promise first. That is those that died believers from His ministry to 70 ad. 

They were joined together with those that were alive , raised into one Body..the body of Christ.
 This is from 1 Thessalonians 4.
 I'm trying to find where those condemned were raised.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 2, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
> 
> So a seed is sown, then it dies, but futurist and folks that believe this is about physical bodies would have us believe, the seed dies and then is sown ie. physical body in casket.



The seed doesn't actually die, it becomes the living body God gave it. God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body. 
Now I can see the seed being sown in corruption as all human seeds are. They are all sown as a natural man. 
Later if reborn they will be raised an incorruptible spirit.
I don't see this happening at a later physical death.
If we are already reborn and resurrected as a spiritual body at our conversion then why would we need another future resurrection? We are given life from the second Adam, a life giving spirit.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

The part I don't understand is being resurrected already as a spirit while I'm still in a body of corruption. If I am already resurrected, why am I still in a natural sown body? How can I now be a raised spiritual body.
How can I perform spiritual things? How am I supposed to act spiritually if I'm still partially natural? Am I some type of hybrid half spirit, half natural? It's no wonder I have so many struggles with the flesh. I'm still half natural.
I actually feel more natural than spiritual. I know that's a bad thing.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 2, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> The seed doesn't actually die, it becomes the living body God gave it. God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
> Now I can see the seed being sown in corruption as all human seeds are. They are all sown as a natural man.
> Later if reborn they will be raised an incorruptible spirit.
> I don't see this happening at a later physical death.
> If we are already reborn and resurrected as a spiritual body at our conversion then why would we need another future resurrection? We are given life from the second Adam, a life giving spirit.



The dead of Israel were being sown while in the perishable Adamic nature, with dishonor, decay, and bondage. But they were also being raised into the imperishable body of the second Adam..Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 2, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
> 
> So a seed is sown, then it dies, but futurist and folks that believe this is about physical bodies would have us believe, the seed dies and then is sown ie. physical body in casket.



If my seed must die for me to be made alive, what about eternal life? Why is this different than soul sleep? Because the instant my seed dies I become a living spirit?


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## hobbs27 (Dec 2, 2015)

artfuldodger said:


> the seed doesn't actually die, it becomes the living body god gave it..



bingo!!!!

 Died to the first Adam..made alive in the Second.

 A seed is no longer a seed when it sprouts and begins to grow, this is more about the corporate body of Israel dying to Adam, and coming alive in Christ.


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## welderguy (Dec 3, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> To be resurrected, one is brought from death to life. Old covenant Israel died in Adam and was raised to life in Christ.
> Now you understand the resurrection of the dead ones. Which was the hope of Israel.



There are two resurrections for a child of God.One is spiritual,when he is regenerated,and one will be physical,when Jesus comes back to raise the bodies of both elect and non-elect.

Confusion comes in when you apply scripture to one that should have been applied to the other.
John 5:21-29 tells of both resurrections.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 3, 2015)

welderguy said:


> There are two resurrections for a child of God.One is spiritual,when he is regenerated,and one will be physical,when Jesus comes back to raise the bodies of both elect and non-elect.
> 
> Confusion comes in when you apply scripture to one that should have been applied to the other.
> John 5:21-29 tells of both resurrections.


Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:  
John 11:25 

Which one is Jesus and why?


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## hobbs27 (Dec 3, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> If my seed must die for me to be made alive, what about eternal life? Why is this different than soul sleep? Because the instant my seed dies I become a living spirit?



I didn't address your question about the seed dying, so I'll do that now.

Think of a peach falling from a tree. Once it falls it begins to rot and decay, I believe that is the death of the seed referenced to. It is sown , then dies, then raises in life.

It was sown as a corruptible body, but raised in a different incorruptible body....or

It was sown in old covenant body of Adam and raised in new covenant body of Christ.

 The futurist believe the seed dies first then sown, the seed being our physical body, sown being buried in a casket then in some future event our physical fleshly body will be raised and made incorruptible...

 But the fact is the seed is sown first then dies....I hope they don't start burying people alive so they can be resurrected.


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## welderguy (Dec 3, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I didn't address your question about the seed dying, so I'll do that now.
> 
> Think of a peach falling from a tree. Once it falls it begins to rot and decay, I believe that is the death of the seed referenced to. It is sown , then dies, then raises in life.
> 
> ...



I wish you wouldn't claim what others believe because you misrepresent many times.

Based on what you said above,I ask you this:
Was Jesus buried before He died?


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## hobbs27 (Dec 3, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I wish you wouldn't claim what others believe because you misrepresent many times.
> 
> Based on what you said above,I ask you this:
> Was Jesus buried before He died?



First, how did I misrepresent, don't you believe the seed represents a physical body? 

Secondly, yes Jesus died before he was placed in the tomb.


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## welderguy (Dec 3, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> First, how did I misrepresent, don't you believe the seed represents a physical body?
> 
> Secondly, yes Jesus died before he was placed in the tomb.



Correct.Jesus died,then was buried,then rose again.That is the order of events that take place in the physical resurrection.

John 5:28 speaks of the physical resurrection in the "hour that is coming" (future).

But John 5:25 speaks of a resurrection(spiritual regeneration of the elect),that "now is".It's going on now.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Correct.Jesus died,then was buried,then rose again.That is the order of events that take place in the physical resurrection.
> 
> John 5:28 speaks of the physical resurrection in the "hour that is coming" (future).
> 
> But John 5:25 speaks of a resurrection(spiritual regeneration of the elect),that "now is".It's going on now.



There will be two resurrections for a child of God. What about someone who is not a child of God?
Some Christians believe "all" will be resurrected. What are some verses that show "all" will be resurrected? I'm having trouble finding any. I do remember hearing about those in Christ first and then a resurrection of the evil or resurrection of the wicked but I can't find a verses to show this.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
> John 11:25
> 
> Which one is Jesus and why?



Isn't he both?


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## welderguy (Dec 3, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> There will be two resurrections for a child of God. What about someone who is not a child of God?
> Some Christians believe "all" will be resurrected. What are some verses that show "all" will be resurrected? I'm having trouble finding any. I do remember hearing about those in Christ first and then a resurrection of the evil or resurrection of the wicked but I can't find a verses to show this.



John 5:29


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## hobbs27 (Dec 3, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Isn't he both?



Yes. Jesus is the resurrection.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 3, 2015)

welderguy said:


> John 5:29



That was all those in the grave at the same hour together.


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## welderguy (Dec 3, 2015)

welderguy said:


> John 5:29



Id like to hear Hobbs explanation of "resurrection of dam nation" in John 5:29.
He's already correctly established that resurrection is going from death unto life.So how then would someone be brought from death to life AND dam nation?....if its not physical resurrection?


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## hobbs27 (Dec 3, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Id like to hear Hobbs explanation of "resurrection of dam nation" in John 5:29.
> He's already correctly established that resurrection is going from death unto life.So how then would someone be brought from death to life AND dam nation?....if its not physical resurrection?



Before I go into detail to explain this to you and the hidden( Krisis ) involved, please answer me this.

 What in this text demands a physical bodily resurrection?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> That was all those in the grave at the same hour together.



Do we have any more verses that also show this resurrection of the CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoreded?

Could we all, both saved and unsaved, have a type of spiritual resurrection when we die a physical death. This would allow those needing judgement and He!! to go ahead and go there and also allow the saved to go ahead and spiritually resurrect to Heaven?

28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 

If "all" are still in the tombs then doesn't this show proof of "soul sleep?" Otherwise how can the dead hear if they've moved on from the grave to heaven or he!! or some other holding place.

Is it just the CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoreded that are left in the graves? After all the spiritually awakened in Christ have already been made alive because Christ is the "resurrection and the life."


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## hobbs27 (Dec 3, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do we have any more verses that also show this resurrection of the CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoreded?
> 
> Could we all, both saved and unsaved, have a type of spiritual resurrection when we die a physical death. This would allow those needing judgement and He!! to go ahead and go there and also allow the saved to go ahead and spiritually resurrect to Heaven?
> 
> ...



The graves are empty, nothing there but dust which belongs to the earth.

The old covenant under the curse of Adam  sin and death, required a holding place known as the grave or Hades. Both the rich man and Lazarus were there awaiting judgment.

There was one Resurrection... Two groups. One group was the dead in the graves, both the just and unjust. The other group was the physically living @ 70 ad and unto today.

The dead in the graves, ie Hades were brought up, some to life eternal, some to the second death...the living righteous were transformed in the twinkling of an eye...being born into Adam, died of that corrupted body of Adam and were raised with those in the graves to one Body of Christ. 

When we physically die today we instantly face Jesus , either we are of Christ and have eternal life or we are not and face the second death....None of this back and forth to retrieve an old fleshly physical body .

But if it were true, you are right it would require soul sleep.


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## welderguy (Dec 3, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Before I go into detail to explain this to you and the hidden( Krisis ) involved, please answer me this.
> 
> What in this text demands a physical bodily resurrection?



Verse 28

John 5:28-29
" Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the GRAVES shall hear his voice,
 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of dam nation."


graves-(Strongs #3419) a remembrance,grave,sepulchre,tomb



Same word "grave" that Lazerus was raised from.(John 11:31)

Also same word "graves" used in Matt.27:52-53

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."


All these texts speak of physical graves and physical resurrections.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 3, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Verse 28
> 
> John 5:28-29
> " Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the GRAVES shall hear his voice,
> ...



So you can't find anything that demands a physical resurrection out of those two verses?

 I remember once you said the dead are with Jesus but come back to get their physical bodies...note* Those in the graves heard Jesus voice and come forth.

 I say that means their consciousness was in the grave and not with Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Verse 28
> 
> John 5:28-29
> " Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the GRAVES shall hear his voice,
> ...



Do you now believe in Soul Sleep, I'm a bit confused as Hobbs might be also? I thought I remember you saying that when we die we are absent of the body and present with the Lord.

I've often though about soul sleep when I was at a cemetery, wondering if there were spirits down in those decaying bodies.
I still consider it from time to time when I try and comprehend a future physical resurrection.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Verse 28
> 
> John 5:28-29
> " Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the GRAVES shall hear his voice,
> ...



I wonder why just the bodies of some of the Saints appeared mentioned in Matthew 27? 
Not all of the Saints and none of the wicked?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> The graves are empty, nothing there but dust which belongs to the earth.
> 
> The old covenant under the curse of Adam  sin and death, required a holding place known as the grave or Hades. Both the rich man and Lazarus were there awaiting judgment.
> 
> ...



When was this resurrection you are describing? Were the physically dead folks before this resurrection sleeping in their graves?
What was the point of the wicked being a part of the resurrection? If the price of sin is death, why didn't they just die when they died? 

Another way of asking is, now resurrection is just for the Saints. Why did it change? Was it because Jesus became the resurrection and the life?

I've noticed most freewill believers see things happening in a definite order in time. Such as how things were before Christ, before 70AD, and after 70AD. Things like the Gentiles being grafted in at a specific time. 
When events happened and how they "changed" things are important.

To the Reformed believers, time means nothing. Everything has already happened. The events of the past or present does nothing, therefore the time of the event is meaning less. This doesn't take away from the importance of the event such as the Cross, it just doesn't change anything.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 3, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> When was this resurrection you are describing? Were the physically dead folks before this resurrection sleeping in their graves?
> What was the point of the wicked being a part of the resurrection? If the price of sin is death, why didn't they just die when they died?
> 
> Another way of asking is, now resurrection is just for the Saints. Why did it change? Was it because Jesus became the resurrection and the life?
> ...




When: At the last Trump. 70ad

What was the point of the wicked, why didn't they just die? : They were wicked, but they were in Covenant, they were to be judged at the last day.

I'm not 100% freewiller, and don't try to force scripture to meet that demand. I'm truly concerned with folks that believe in predestination however. If they think they were saved because God chose to save them before man was created, and they believe Salvation existed before the Cross, then the Cross means nothing to them.


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## welderguy (Dec 4, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> So you can't find anything that demands a physical resurrection out of those two verses?



Uuuh?? My entire post is showing you what demands physical resurrection.
I'm really beginning to believe that you are conveniently ignoring the parts that don't line up with your views.

Bless your heart.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 4, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Uuuh?? My entire post is showing you what demands physical resurrection.
> I'm really beginning to believe that you are conveniently ignoring the parts that don't line up with your views.
> 
> Bless your heart.



I'm not ignoring anything. I've brought up the fact that the seed is sown before it dies, which goes against a physical resurrection, and that the dead in the grave heard Jesus voice. If they were with him they wouldn't have heard his voice from the grave and come forth, they would wait till he came to retrieve the body.

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;


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## BAR308 (Dec 29, 2015)

if we're born with imputed sin then that makes God the author of sin and evil. God said He can tempt NO man with sin but yet He has imputed sin in ALL men? no way. thats a myth. the Word says we were made upright and in Gods image. we cant be in Gods image AND at the same time... be made sinners as that would make God a sinner. we choose to sin. its a choice and the devil tempts. God gives the credit to the devil for sin in man. its in the parable of the Word and all over the Bible... the devil tempts man and incourages him to sin... not God. we have to stop believing doctrines from the "church"... when the Word is so clear about the origin of sin.


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## Israel (Dec 30, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> When: At the last Trump. 70ad
> 
> What was the point of the wicked, why didn't they just die? : They were wicked, but they were in Covenant, they were to be judged at the last day.
> 
> I'm not 100% freewiller, and don't try to force scripture to meet that demand. I'm truly concerned with folks that believe in predestination however. If they think they were saved because God chose to save them before man was created, and they believe Salvation existed before the Cross, then the Cross means nothing to them.




Is that true? To you, I mean?


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