# Canonization of a Saint



## HawgJawl (Oct 31, 2013)

Outside of martyrdom, the beautification of the “Blessed” requires a postmortem miracle and the canonization requires a second miracle.  These miracles are sometimes in the form of prayers to the “Venerable” or “Blessed” for his/her intercession to God on behalf of a terminally ill person.  If prayers to the “Blessed” and subsequent prayers from the “Blessed” to God result in a miraculous healing, the “Blessed” is considered for sainthood.

Other than "I'm not Catholic", what do you think of the proposition of praying to anyone other than Jesus for intercession, and the many miracles which have reportedly occurred as a result?


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## hummerpoo (Oct 31, 2013)

John 16:
23 In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. 24 Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.

25 “These things I have spoken to you in [f]figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in [g]figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father. 26 In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father. 28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.”

29 His disciples *said, “Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not [h]using a figure of speech. 30 Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God.” 

I see an instruction to pray to the Father, and not to the Son.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 31, 2013)

If the miracles did in fact occur as reported, would that add credibility to the practice?


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## gordon 2 (Oct 31, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Outside of martyrdom, the beautification of the “Blessed” requires a postmortem miracle and the canonization requires a second miracle.  These miracles are sometimes in the form of prayers to the “Venerable” or “Blessed” for his/her intercession to God on behalf of a terminally ill person.  If prayers to the “Blessed” and subsequent prayers from the “Blessed” to God result in a miraculous healing, the “Blessed” is considered for sainthood.
> 
> Other than "I'm not Catholic", what do you think of the proposition of praying to anyone other than Jesus for intercession, and the many miracles which have reportedly occurred as a result?



Catholics don't exclude those who have died in Christ from the body of the church. Catholics believe they can interceed-petition for them, as they can for us. Jesus remains the mediator however.

According to catholics the saints in heaven can present our prayers to our Lord---Who is the only mediator.


 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness


Revelation 4 

New King James Version (NKJV)


The Throne Room of Heaven

4 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. 3 And He who sat there was[a] like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns* of gold on their heads. 5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices.[c] Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the[d] seven Spirits of God.

6 Before the throne there was[e] a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. 8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:


“Holy, holy, holy,[f]
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”

9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:


11 “You are worthy, O Lord,[g]
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist[h] and were created.”



Revelation 5 

New King James Version (NKJV)


The Lamb Takes the Scroll

5 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. 2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.

4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read[a] the scroll, or to look at it. 5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

6 And I looked, and behold,[c] in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Worthy Is the Lamb

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:


“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us[d] kings[e] and priests to our God;
And we[f] shall reign on the earth.”

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:


“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:


“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”[g]

14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four[h] elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.
----------------------------------------------------------------*


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 31, 2013)

Could it be like asking people to intercede and pray to God for you? Like a Church prayer list. The only difference is the Church people aren't dead yet.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 31, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Outside of martyrdom, the beautification of the “Blessed” requires a postmortem miracle and the canonization requires a second miracle.  These miracles are sometimes in the form of prayers to the “Venerable” or “Blessed” for his/her intercession to God on behalf of a terminally ill person.  If prayers to the “Blessed” and subsequent prayers from the “Blessed” to God result in a miraculous healing, the “Blessed” is considered for sainthood.
> 
> Other than "I'm not Catholic", what do you think of the proposition of praying to anyone other than Jesus for intercession, and the many miracles which have reportedly occurred as a result?



God is not hindered by our ignorance.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 1, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Could it be like asking people to intercede and pray to God for you? Like a Church prayer list. The only difference is the Church people aren't dead yet.



It seems like the practice is based upon a hierarchy which is established by a person's ability or worthiness to successfully request a miracle from God.  If asking the Blessed to in turn ask God for a miracle ultimately results in a granted miracle, the Blessed is given a higher ranking of Sainthood.  

The ability to ask for and obtain a miracle serves as proof that a person is being endorsed by God.  This person has a close enough relationship with God to receive answered prayers.

If we compare this to the living, it would lead one to believe that only the well-qualified in God's eyes are eligible to even ask for a miracle.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 1, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> It seems like the practice is based upon a hierarchy which is established by a person's ability or worthiness to successfully request a miracle from God.  If asking the Blessed to in turn ask God for a miracle ultimately results in a granted miracle, the Blessed is given a higher ranking of Sainthood.
> 
> The ability to ask for and obtain a miracle serves as proof that a person is being endorsed by God.  This person has a close enough relationship with God to receive answered prayers.
> 
> If we compare this to the living, it would lead one to believe that only the well-qualified in God's eyes are eligible to even ask for a miracle.



I was thinking about prayer more than the Saint's Blessed process. The more I think about it, wouldn't these Blessed  have to be omniscient? I believe saints in Heaven can pray to God but how could they know our prayers? How could thay have peace in Heaven knowing someone is praying to stop their Earthly suffering?
I don't know anything about the "Blessed" process. Who gets to determine the miracle and why is the higher ranking needed? We talk about "works" not being required to get to Heaven. Now we might have to "work" when we get to Heaven.


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## clayservant (Nov 2, 2013)

I am a saint, how about you?    I only pray to God the father in Jesus name like he said to do.  like hummerpoo pointed out in post # 2..  Thank you once again for your support.


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## Israel (Nov 3, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> It seems like the practice is based upon a hierarchy which is established by a person's ability or worthiness to successfully request a miracle from God.  If asking the Blessed to in turn ask God for a miracle ultimately results in a granted miracle, the Blessed is given a higher ranking of Sainthood.
> 
> The ability to ask for and obtain a miracle serves as proof that a person is being endorsed by God.  This person has a close enough relationship with God to receive answered prayers.
> 
> If we compare this to the living, it would lead one to believe that only the well-qualified in God's eyes are eligible to even ask for a miracle.



Now, that's trenchant.
That's a ringer.
That frames the whole of it a little too well, reveals something that I had not seen previously in your posts.
Sometimes answers don't come to us because the question is faulty, or, maybe better said, an answer comes that we can't receive because we have asked wrongly.
Because you have stated so well an understanding of certain assumed fundamentals, may I ask you to consider these things Jesus has said?
Joh 16:24  Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. 
Joh 16:25  These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 
Joh 16:26  At that day ye shall ask in my name:_ and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: _
Joh 16:27  For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 

Obviously there are many things deeply inviting there. Proverbs. Things that mean things. Like markers on a path, never the goal, but necessary to the goal.

But, that's not the issue, here, now.

What you posted shows you have an understanding _of_ an understanding. Can you see what Jesus says, particularly, in regards to that? 
And why a whole system based upon what you rightly framed as "eligibility" of some over others is flawed at its root?
But, if you are asking, what makes a man qualified in God's eyes, one might say just being a man is all the eligibility needed.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 3, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> It seems like the practice is based upon a hierarchy which is established by a person's ability or worthiness to successfully request a miracle from God.  If asking the Blessed to in turn ask God for a miracle ultimately results in a granted miracle, the Blessed is given a higher ranking of Sainthood.
> 
> The ability to ask for and obtain a miracle serves as proof that a person is being endorsed by God.  This person has a close enough relationship with God to receive answered prayers.
> 
> If we compare this to the living, it would lead one to believe that only the well-qualified in God's eyes are eligible to even ask for a miracle.



The whole point of canonizing is not as a  "specialized" conduit to miracles or answered prayers. The whole point of sainthood or canonizing is the pointing to a fellow believer as an example of "being in Christ" or "a model" highlighted in the body of Christ. And there are many models.

That miracles can occur when attention is given to the contemplation, study, prayers, and request to an esteemed departed saint this is perhaps a sign, or a devine seal that some saints are worthy of special study as how an individual can follow in Christ. God in this remains the mediator...

At least this is my initial "reasoning"  on canonization. 

So accordingly, we have no need to syphon prayers and contemplation through and with saints dead or alive. But we can chose to live the body of Christ as an entity in this world and out of this world.  I crave it all.

God hears prayers period. Our prayers in solo, our prayers in communion, He hears.

My favorite saint, my hero saint, the saint that leaves me in awe as a model for me and others---- was intelectually and/or socially challenged. Joseph of Cupertino 1603-1663.  He flies in the face of alot of saints, including mine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_of_Cupertino


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 3, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> The whole point of canonizing is not as a  "specialized" conduit to miracles or answered prayers. The whole point of sainthood or canonizing is the pointing to a fellow believer as an example of "being in Christ" or "a model" highlighted in the body of Christ. And there are many models.
> 
> That miracles can occur when attention is given to the contemplation, study, prayers, request to an esteemed departed saint it is perhaps a sign, or a devine seal that some saints are worthy of special study as how an individual can follow in Christ. God in this remains the mediator...
> 
> ...



That was an interesting read about your favorite saint. My favorite saint was from a TV show played by Roger Moore. Just kidding but I like that Saint Joseph's ability of  levitation was thought to be connected to witchcraft. Reason being is we always think things different from our own beliefs to be weird. I'm trying to not limit my beliefs to only things I understand.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 3, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> That was an interesting read about your favorite saint. My favorite saint was from a TV show played by Roger Moore. Just kidding but I like that Saint Joseph's ability of  levitation was thought to be connected to witchcraft. Reason being is we always think things different from our own beliefs to be weird. I'm trying to not limit my beliefs to only things I understand.



There is an interesting movie "holywood" styled that one can view on U tube concerning this fellow brother. It is somewhat interesting.  Joseph is generally believed to have been intellectually handicapped... or "severely uncleaver".
More than not in my life I have heard of him as a patron to Poor students or students who have to work real, real hard to just make passing mark or who know many failures!


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## HawgJawl (Nov 4, 2013)

Israel said:


> Now, that's trenchant.
> That's a ringer.
> That frames the whole of it a little too well, reveals something that I had not seen previously in your posts.
> Sometimes answers don't come to us because the question is faulty, or, maybe better said, an answer comes that we can't receive because we have asked wrongly.
> ...



I would agree that being a man is the only "eligibility" prerequisite for asking for the miracle of salvation.  I believe that God hears all prayers for salvation.  But I do not believe that scripture supports the notion that God grants prayers for miracles to those who are not "His people".

The Old Testament often pairs the promise of blessings for the righteous with the threat of curses for the wicked.

Sin is what separates man from God.  Since no man is without sin, we are now dealing in degrees of sin as opposed to sinners verses those without sin.

Just how much sin is too much for God to speak to man?

The opposite is also true.  Peter walked a few steps on water but then begin to sink.  Being a disciple of Jesus was not enough to enable him to walk on water.  It came down to his level of faith.

Just how much faith is required to walk on water?

Scripture related to praying for miracles often incorporates some type of requirement.  If you love Jesus, believe in Jesus, have enough faith, etc.  The question is just how much of each is required.


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## Israel (Nov 4, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I would agree that being a man is the only "eligibility" prerequisite for asking for the miracle of salvation.  I believe that God hears all prayers for salvation.  But I do not believe that scripture supports the notion that God grants prayers for miracles to those who are not "His people".
> 
> The Old Testament often pairs the promise of blessings for the righteous with the threat of curses for the wicked.
> 
> ...


maybe...he told us?


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## HawgJawl (Nov 4, 2013)

Israel said:


> maybe...he told us?



The point is that if there are *degrees* of sin, love, belief, faith, etc., then there must be degree or level at which God will hear (or conversely not hear) a prayer for a miracle (other than the sinners prayer).

The issue is not an attempt to identify exactly where that level is.  It may be different for each person.  The issue is to acknowledge that "some" level or degree is necessary.


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## Israel (Nov 4, 2013)

I find the champion of the righteousness by the faith of Jesus Christ not the least bit contradictory, nor falsely humble, nor given to hyperbole in his discovery of whom the chiefest of sinners is.
Is this what we "signed up" for? Or been drafted to?
"Just the facts, maam, just the facts"
Fact is there's none good but God, and can't help but see who ain't, the clearer he becomes in the sight. Is it a shame? Hardly, the same one who bids you come ain't ashamed you ain't God, he already knows what you are. Just the facts maam, just the facts. Is seeing one ain't good too high a price to pay to be with the One who is? 



Happy for me a better person than me didn't say "no" when I asked her to be my wife. Happy, indeed. Had I begun to weigh and measure my worthiness of her against my own...well, I'd a been more than a fool to argue cause I wouldn't take yes for an answer.
How righteous do we have to be? Righteous enough, perhaps, to stand in awe of the God who gives his son to sinners.
But wait...doesn't that make me something?
Maybe. 
One of two men.
One might be the one who says..."Ahhh, my wife...she's durn lucky to have me..."
Or, I could tell you the truth.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 4, 2013)

This is kind of interesting.

http://wesleyanleadership.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/whats-wesleyan-about-leadership/


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## Israel (Nov 4, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> This is kind of interesting.
> 
> http://wesleyanleadership.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/whats-wesleyan-about-leadership/


Do have to ask...was that a punny before? About Joseph of Cupertino flying in the face of saints...?


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## Israel (Nov 4, 2013)

I am partial to Teresa of Avila's discoveries, myself. 
Was glad to find this page when looking for something I thought was attributed to her, yet still couldn't. Nevertheless, found a wealth of other things here:

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/74226.Teresa_of_vila

Among which:

“I know a person who, though no poet, composed some verses in a very short time, which were full of feeling and admirably descriptive of her pain: they did not come from her understanding, but, in order the better to enjoy the bliss which came to her from such delectable pain, she complained of it to her God. She would have been so glad if she could have been cut to pieces, body and soul, to show what joy this pain caused her. What torments could have been set before her at such a time which she would not have found it delectable to endure for her Lord's sake?”


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## gordon 2 (Nov 4, 2013)

Israel said:


> Do have to ask...was that a punny before? About Joseph of Cupertino flying in the face of saints...?



My friend a funny punny it was meant as... Yes. I was just reading that some say the greatest faith for a methodist bishop to have is the faith of a child. 

Did you like Joseph?  He had no memory to say, was clumsy and often incapable of concentration for very long. Of course these measurements are relative.

Way back when, their was a local priest here who it is said did cure the sick. ( It was a bit before my time.) I have heard it said that he also intentially walked bare foot on torns ( rose hip branches) in secret when in private or personal prayers. I guess he was "caught" doing this at least once or someone working for the parish eventually related this.

Someday I'm going to look into this. I find it often enough regards "Canonized saints".  Mother Teressa for example encouraged mortification. I really don't understand much of this however.

But yes... it was a punny... in the spirit of my great affection to the many many who have a higher IQ than Gordie of Gordo.

Also, it just occurs to me that many (most) saints have in common that they are not married. Perhaps there is enough mortification in the vocation of marriage to carry the day.  However, have you witnessed miracles lately? I haven't other than it is a small miracle that I can call you my friend and yet we have never met in the flesh. Yes, a punny.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 4, 2013)

Israel said:


> I am partial to Teresa of Avila's discoveries, myself.
> Was glad to find this page when looking for something I thought was attributed to her, yet still couldn't. Nevertheless, found a wealth of other things here:
> 
> http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/74226.Teresa_of_vila
> ...



Yea, that's  reads like one of ours ( yours and mine); marine,... or possibly airborne.


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## Israel (Nov 5, 2013)

Before I get too caught up with what I see as Teresa's comforts to a fool as myself, I cannot help but wonder if what I quoted is akin to this:
2Co_12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.


Maybe we could write a book, a tome, volumes and reams...of whether she was speaking of herself.


Maybe not.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 5, 2013)

Israel said:


> Before I get too caught up with what I see as Teresa's comforts to a fool as myself, I cannot help but wonder if what I quoted is akin to this:
> 2Co_12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
> 
> 
> ...



A whole lot of people would get caught up on getting caught up maybe. I don't know...maybe. Maybe.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 5, 2013)

Scripture indicates that God does not hear the prayers of those He views as "wicked".

Proverbs 15:29
The Lord is far from the wicked; but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

Proverbs 15:8  
The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 5, 2013)

Scripture also indicates that God may not listen to His own people's prayers in certain situations.

Lamentations 3:8
Also when I cry and shout, he shutteth out my prayer.

Lamentations 3:44
Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through.


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## Bama4me (Nov 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Outside of martyrdom, the beautification of the “Blessed” requires a postmortem miracle and the canonization requires a second miracle.  These miracles are sometimes in the form of prayers to the “Venerable” or “Blessed” for his/her intercession to God on behalf of a terminally ill person.  If prayers to the “Blessed” and subsequent prayers from the “Blessed” to God result in a miraculous healing, the “Blessed” is considered for sainthood.
> 
> Other than "I'm not Catholic", what do you think of the proposition of praying to anyone other than Jesus for intercession, and the many miracles which have reportedly occurred as a result?



Gotta say something about this topic… as we've mentioned in other threads, "proof" that a "miracle" has occurred is a sketchy proposition.  God sends his sun and rain on the just and on the unjust… and it could be that someone else was praying a prayer THROUGH the intercession of Christ for the same thing someone else was praying through others for.

There's no evidence in the NT that we can offer prayers to God through anyone other than Christ… as far as being a qualified person for inclusion into a listing of "saints", such isn't found in the NT either.  In fact, Romans 1:7, 1 Corinthians 1:2, 2 Corinthians 1:1, Ephesians 1:1, Philippians 1:1, and Colossians 1:2 calls ALL CHRISTIANS "saints."


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## gordon 2 (Nov 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Proverbs 15:29
> The Lord is far from the wicked; but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
> 
> 1 Peter 3:12
> ...



Read your passages again. Not one says that the Lord does not hear the prayers of the wicked, perhaps because it does not say the wicked pray to  Him? But that the Lord gives a hearing to the righteous does not mean He always answers their prayers. To listen is not a response . The righeous are not perfect, sometimes their prayers are in left field.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 5, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Read your passages again. Not one says that the Lord does not hear the prayers of the wicked, perhaps because it does not say the wicked pray to  Him. But that the Lord gives a hearing to the righteous does not mean He always answers their prayers. To listen is not a response .



What does scripture say about people who pray loudly and publically?


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## gordon 2 (Nov 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> What does scripture say about people who pray loudly and publically?


 It would depend on the context what is meant. Deaf people can be loud, so are some cultures, but if loud in public means making a show as in italian suits and cleavage to impress the folk, then loud is a funny. In this latter context "loud" prayers to impress folk might be equivatent. Lady Gaga is loud. My boss is loud. Shallow praying can be loud, I supose. Religious jingoists are surely loud.

 But really, No I don't. ( I'm not scripture smart.) What does it say?


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## HawgJawl (Nov 5, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Read your passages again. Not one says that the Lord does not hear the prayers of the wicked, perhaps because it does not say the wicked pray to  Him? But that the Lord gives a hearing to the righteous does not mean He always answers their prayers. To listen is not a response . The righeous are not perfect, sometimes their prayers are in left field.



Here are a few that are a little closer to the point:

Isaiah 1:15
And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hand are full of blood.

Jeremiah 7:16
Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.

Jeremiah 11:14
Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 5, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> It would depend on the context what is meant. Deaf people can be loud, so are some cultures, but if loud in public means making a show as in italian suits and cleavage to impress the folk, then loud is a funny. In this latter context "loud" prayers to impress folk might be equivatent. Lady Gaga is loud. My boss is loud. Shallow praying can be loud, I supose. Religious jingoists are surely loud.
> 
> But really, No I don't. ( I'm not scripture smart.) What does it say?



Matthew 6:5-7
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are; for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 5, 2013)

Canonization? I see a guy wearing a helmet and cape do that every year at the county fair! 
Maybe he's trying to shoot himself to heaven. He's never made it, but once he flew all the way to the frontage road.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 5, 2013)

Matthew 23:14
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -ation.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Here are a few that are a little closer to the point:
> 
> Isaiah 1:15
> And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hand are full of blood.
> ...



"This people"I bet they were people in disbelief,perhaps the hebrews themselves, ( I don't have time to read the context now.) or individuals, people(s) who believed not period ---before the last covenant.

Before the last covenant, God's purpose and designs were very different than His lastest regards human beings or Adam's great grand children.

If it is concerning a foreign people ( "this people") for belief then in the new covenant I don't see why it would be foolish to not pray for them, as Jesus sat with sinners, for the great commission and Paul ministered to gentiles, who had many sundry beliefs. 

However, in the former covenant...God was very jealous of man's other gods, wrathful to wicked people and somewhat indifferent to folk who chose not to believe.


----------



## gordon 2 (Nov 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Matthew 23:14
> Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -ation.




Yea...It is one thing to hide sin in religious devotion, in the temples and reasonings of men and another to expose them (sins) with repentance. Something like to apologize to an individual without stating the exact act which one is apologizing for --constituting no apology at all!

The Pharisees were fond of offering all kinds of spiritual wisdom, specifics of religious duty with pretence-- with pretence because they were not worried about  the more important aspects of "doing" justice. All talk and no walk folk. Selfish folk. They would easily look the other way to moral conflict and unjust practices in their ranks, but wip the lower casts with religious burdens that were the part of righteousness...  Perhaps.


----------



## Bama4me (Nov 5, 2013)

HJ… the NT is pretty plain that there are certain ways that we must approach God in prayer, even for His child.  God certainly hears all prayers, but answering them in another thing entirely.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 5, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> HJ… the NT is pretty plain that there are certain ways that we must approach God in prayer, even for His child.  God certainly hears all prayers, but answering them in another thing entirely.



I certainly did not mean to insinuate that God was somehow unaware of "heathen" prayers.  I used the word "hear" because that is the word used in scripture.  Whether "hear" means to grant or just to consider, the point I'm trying to make is that scripture indicates that a certain criteria is necessary for God to "hear" (grant or consider) a prayer. 

Of course there is criteria for the prayer itself, but the criteria I'm talking about is the spiritual condition of the person praying.


----------



## gordon 2 (Nov 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I certainly did not mean to insinuate that God was somehow unaware of "heathen" prayers.  I used the word "hear" because that is the word used in scripture.  Whether "hear" means to grant or just to consider, the point I'm trying to make is that scripture indicates that a certain criteria is necessary for God to "hear" (grant or consider) a prayer.
> 
> Of course there is criteria for the prayer itself, but the criteria I'm talking about is the spiritual condition of the person praying.



Ok then. What's the next statement or statement 2 in the syllogism ?


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## HawgJawl (Nov 5, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Ok then. What's the next statement or statement 2 in the syllogism ?



When Jesus spoke to His disciples about their ability to perform miracles or receive something from God through prayer, He almost always included a qualifier such as belief or faith and sometimes pointed out their lack of "enough" faith or belief.

James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

I've heard many reasons cited over the years for what appeared each time to be a prayer request not granted.  One reason I have never heard cited is that maybe no one praying was "righteous" enough in the eyes of God.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> When Jesus spoke to His disciples about their ability to perform miracles or receive something from God through prayer, He almost always included a qualifier such as belief or faith and sometimes pointed out their lack of "enough" faith or belief.
> 
> James 5:16
> Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
> ...





Well we have "heard" it now. You might be right. And maybe not. So then, what is your conclusion if indeed it is the case that some are not "righteous" enought to have prayers answered? Is it a comment on the prayerful or God, or both?


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## HawgJawl (Nov 6, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> Well we have "heard" it now. You might be right. And maybe not. So then, what is your conclusion if indeed it is the case that some are not "righteous" enought to have prayers answered? Is it a comment on the prayerful or God, or both?



There is a substantial list of things that God used to do (in the Bible) but I have been told that He no longer does.  

Speak directly and clearly to man.
Miraculously protect His followers from their enemies.
Directly and clearly assist in war.
Bless the righteous with fewer diseases than the wicked.
Bless the righteous with longer life than the wicked.
Bless the righteous with greater success and prosperity than the wicked.
Produce miracles on demand to authenticate a message.
Perform miraculous healings.
Cast out demons.

There are more, those are off the top of my head.

Option (A):  God changed.  God decided to stop doing those things even when asked for in prayer by the "righteous".

Option (B):  Man changed.  Sin has grown in everyone's life so that even the most "righteous" among us has far less "faith" than Peter as he sank into the ocean.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 6, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> There is a substantial list of things that God used to do (in the Bible) but I have been told that He no longer does.
> 
> Speak directly and clearly to man.
> Miraculously protect His followers from their enemies.
> ...



Your listening to the wrong voices. Your list is a list of blanket statements by doornobs.

Qualitative assessments of what folk say involves retaining what is important and ignoring what is not. The brain's white matter generally increases ( myelin) with age permitting more connections in middle age (45 to 80) as to what is important and what is not or what to retain and what to kick to the curb from knowledge and experience. Some say this is the reason for wisdom.

It is perhaps good to remember this when assessing what others say and one's self talk.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 6, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Your listening to the wrong voices. Your list is a list of blanket statements by doornobs.
> 
> Qualitative assessments of what folk say involves retaining what is important and ignoring what is not. The brain's white matter generally increases with age permitting more connections in middle age (45 to 80) as to what is important and what is not or what to retain and what to kick to the curb from knowledge and experience. Some say this is the reason for wisdom.
> 
> It is perhaps good to remember this when assessing what others say and one's self talk.



I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.  Are you saying that God still does those things, or that He never did?


----------



## gordon 2 (Nov 6, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.  Are you saying that God still does those things, or that He never did?




Somes is done and somes is not.



Speak directly and clearly to man. ( done)

Miraculously protect His followers from their enemies.( done)

Directly and clearly assist in war.(done)

Bless the righteous with fewer diseases than the wicked. ( This is a dumb statement. It begs the questions what is blessing, what is righteous, what is fewer diseases and what is wicked. And most definitions of these are based on opinions not facts. In comparison all the elements combine to make a tasteless soup... it needs seasoning yet... for it to be a or even seem to be a valid statement.)


Bless the righteous with longer life than the wicked. ( Doornob wisdom again. Not ever worth an answer especially that it is a reported statement, as opposed from the horses mouth. Which means at least two brains have dulled the purpose of statement.)

Bless the righteous with greater success and prosperity than the wicked. ( Again begs the question what is a blessing. Subjective at best, and opinionated. Doornob observation at best. Also rain falls on the just and the unjust. Also, for the righteous  blessing for the wicked would be very different than corresponding , or hoped for blessings from the wicked toward the righteous--which would be to curse the righteous.)

Produce miracles on demand to authenticate a message. ( On demand? Isn't that a credit card company or Pay TV?) This is not a reply a person of faith would give to the fact of miracles. The statement is fraudulant as a serious spiritual statement. As a comparison it could be a headline in a tabliod, but not in a serious news paper.) 

Perform miraculous healings. ( done)

Cast out demons. (done)


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## HawgJawl (Nov 6, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Somes is done and somes is not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We've had discussions on other threads where I have been told that the miracles performed by the disciples and specifically the last few verses of the Book of Mark ended when the Bible was written.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 6, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> We've had discussions on other threads where I have been told that the miracles performed by the disciples and specifically the last few verses of the Book of Mark ended when the Bible was written.



Yea... some might say this... some say other things. People say the darnest things. So what's your point? What people appreciate in their spiritual lives is not fixed.

My "dones" are done in the here and now.

 Note that when you say such and such is said in scripture you have to be reading in context and remember that the context is written by someone with spiritual discernment to individuals with spiritual discernment. Otherwise scripture is just another literary myth.

Remember Robert Frost's definition concerning poetry? He said that the subject of poetry was often something it was not. It was not or that the subject of poetry was other than the one at first impression no matter how reasonalble the first impression was.

 In the realm of  human spirit,  the human spirit in the case of poetry, its motivations and objects, its attention to itself are often presented as  intrinsic to events. Or in other words the event of the spirit needs narrative or event to be sensed.  And so it is the case with scripture. To the unbeliever it is face value. To the person with faith it is as a river with a traceable link to its source and a traceble link to its final destination. Just because at some point we are fishing on Jack Trimper's peer, does not mean that the river is limited to being only what we see at Jack Trimper's peer.

What scripture says to someone without faith and what it says to someone with faith is as different as a celibate waxing on the reasonable or special significance of sexuality in marriage and someone raising a brood of children within that marriage. Or again, the difference might be a navigator indicating to his pilot that the landing stripe or the target is 10 miles away, while the pilot is watching it go by.

Caution. Caution... People say the darnest things.... and that includes yours truly... ( so don't repeat all I say...)


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## HawgJawl (Nov 6, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> My "dones" are done in the here and now.
> 
> Note that when you say such and such is said in scripture you have to be reading in context and remember that the context is written by someone with spiritual discernment to individuals with spiritual discernment. Otherwise scripture is just another literary myth.



Can you point me in the direction of the people who are "here and now" parting the sea or consuming armies with fire from heaven?


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## gordon 2 (Nov 6, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Can you point me in the direction of the people who are "here and now" parting the sea or consuming armies with fire from heaven?



Right off, no.  What's your point? I would think that now more folk would be calling in bridges and armies to build them as now there is more than one way to cross a river.  And in Jesus there is enough fire from heaven for now.

You are really confused as to the spirit behind events... Are you? And do you care whether you are or not? Do you care to know  the the truth I write on, or is your mind made up on it that it is foolishness?


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## HawgJawl (Nov 7, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Right off, no.  What's your point? I would think that now more folk would be calling in bridges and armies to build them as now there is more than one way to cross a river.  And in Jesus there is enough fire from heaven for now.
> 
> You are really confused as to the spirit behind events... Are you? And do you care whether you are or not? Do you care to know  the the truth I write on, or is your mind made up on it that it is foolishness?



My confusion comes from listening to people contradict themselves when asked about the same issue in different contexts.  

This is just one more of many examples.  Take a look at the Snake Handling thread and tell me how many people take the stand that the miracles reported in the book of Acts still occur today.


----------



## Bama4me (Nov 7, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> My confusion comes from listening to people contradict themselves when asked about the same issue in different contexts.
> 
> This is just one more of many examples.  Take a look at the Snake Handling thread and tell me how many people take the stand that the miracles reported in the book of Acts still occur today.



If I can offer an humble opinion here… HJ, it seems you are coming to this forum either (1) expecting that everyone is going to be in agreement with one another or (2) thinking that everything can neatly be explained in such a way that all circumstances are covered.

Obviously, you see that not everyone agrees.  While that is not "unimportant," the fact that everyone doesn't agree is NOT an indicator that Christianity is false.  People in the NT disagreed with one another, but that didn't prevent truth from being presented… and people being saved.

As far as the "neat explanation" goes, as humans we are very limited in understand God and how He works in life.  The bible gives us ideas as to the character of God and His involvement in our world, but trying to explain that in a way which will be "neatly packaged" every time is difficult.  It's easy to say "prayer works" - it's a biblical truth.  But to fully understand HOW God works through our prayers if often a difficult thing to grasp.  

Somewhere in this discussion, you have got to realize that "faith" doesn't always mean we'll understand everything.  2 Corinthians 5:7 states "we walk by faith, not by sight."  In this statement, God is NOT saying it's impossible to find any proof needed to understand God exists, rules this world, and expects human beings to obey His will.  What it DOES mean, however, is that sometimes things are not so clearly seen… and maybe never will be this side of eternity.  Read Hebrews 11 and look at the heroes of faith from the OT times… many of them, like Abraham, would have had many questions that didn't have answers.  Yet, it was their "walking by faith" (not by sight) which was pleasing to God.

Seemingly, you want an explanation that fits every and all circumstances… that's trying to walk by sight.  Not saying we all don't do this from time to time, but sometimes we've got to admit that we're not going to understand everything in how God operates in this world… it's like describing the idea of heaven.  We have bits and pieces enough for us to believe in it, but there's far more to it than what I can read about in the word.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 7, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> If I can offer an humble opinion here… HJ, it seems you are coming to this forum either (1) expecting that everyone is going to be in agreement with one another or
> 
> Contradicting each other is fine. I'm talking about contradicting yourself from one thread to another. A person praises God for doing "A" and then in another thread the exact same person, when put on the spot, says that God doesn't do "A" anymore or we can't know if God does "A".
> 
> ...



I acknowledge that it is not possible for a man to understand everything about how God operates.  But when a person claims to be confident in their beliefs, I would think that they should be able to clearly state what those beliefs are.  Not how God works, but the beliefs the person holds to be true.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 7, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> My confusion comes from listening to people contradict themselves when asked about the same issue in different contexts.
> 
> This is just one more of many examples.  Take a look at the Snake Handling thread and tell me how many people take the stand that the miracles reported in the book of Acts still occur today.



I've got this "feeling". Can I ask you? Do you live in a prison?

 And... a lot of people contradict themselves and alot might seem to contradict themselves on any subject you can think of.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 7, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> I've got this "feeling". Can I ask you? Do you live in a prison?
> 
> No, I don't live in a prison.
> 
> And... a lot of people contradict themselves and alot might seem to contradict themselves on any subject you can think of.



True, but when someone says that a certain principle is true and backs it up with scripture from the Bible and later in another discussion the same person says something that contradicts that principle and backs it up with scripture from the Bible, it makes the "Truth" of the Bible seem very cloudy.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 7, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> ... But when a person claims to be confident in their beliefs, I would think that they should be able to clearly state what those beliefs are.



I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of
 heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
 God, begotten of the Father before all ages;

Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten,
 not created, of one essence with the Father
 through Whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation
 came down from heaven and was incarnate 
 of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, 
 and suffered and was buried;

And He rose on the third day,
 according to the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven
 and is seated at the right hand of the Father;

And He will come again with glory to judge the living
 and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, 
 Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the
 Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who 
 spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead, 
 and the life of the age to come

Amen


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## Bama4me (Nov 7, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> True, but when someone says that a certain principle is true and backs it up with scripture from the Bible and later in another discussion the same person says something that contradicts that principle and backs it up with scripture from the Bible, it makes the "Truth" of the Bible seem very cloudy.



It seems as if you've locked into one or two people and the fact their belief systems aren't consistent… or else you tend to believe that everyone changes their beliefs depending on the subject under consideration.

You're speaking very generally here… while I can't speak for everyone else, I can tell you that I strive for consistency, no matter the topic of discussion.  However, the topic you have consistently focused on is the subject of prayer… one of the more difficult things to understand, much less explain to other people.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 7, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of
> heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
> 
> And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
> ...



Yea!  There you have it without contradiction.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 8, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Yea!  There you have it without contradiction.



It's seldom that you find contradiction in someone's "canned" statement.  It happens when the person makes assertions when discussing issue (A) and doesn't even consider issue (B).  Later, when discussing issue (B) the person makes statements which contradict what they said earlier about issue (A).


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 8, 2013)

When I ask seemingly simple questions, it doesn’t take long for the answers to become increasingly vague.

QUESTION:  When you see the word “believer” or one who “believeth” in scripture, do you consider that word to describe you? 

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

ANSWER:  Absolutely.  Salvation pertains directly to me.

John 16:27
For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

ANSWER:  Absolutely.  God’s love pertains directly to me.

Roman 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

ANSWER:  Absolutely.  Jesus removed the yoke of Mosaic Law from me.

John 7:39
But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.

ANSWER:  I’m not sure. The Holy Spirit was given to the disciples, but we don’t need it anymore since we have the Bible now. 

Mark 9:23
Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

ANSWER:  Well, just because you pray for something doesn’t mean you’re automatically going to get it. Jesus isn’t like a vending machine.

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

ANSWER:  Well, I’m not going to ask God to perform a miracle just because you want me to. The Bible says not to test God.

Mark 11:23-24
For verily I say unto you, That whatsoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

ANSWER:  Well, you have to understand that unless you are a person of faith, you can’t really understand what scripture is saying. A person without faith reading this scripture is only looking at the physical world and is taking this out of context. You have to be a person of faith to have a spiritual understanding of this scripture.

Mark 16:16-18
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -ed. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

ANSWER:  Well, there is a lot of controversy over whether this particular scripture is even supposed to be in the Bible. If it is, then it’s only talking about the disciples because they needed miracles to give authority to their words.  We have the Bible now, so we don’t need miracles anymore.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 8, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> John 7:39
> But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.
> 
> ANSWER:  I’m not sure. The Holy Spirit was given to the disciples, but we don’t need it anymore since we have the Bible now.



First of all, the Holy Spirit is not an "it".

Second, has any believer on this board actually said, "We don’t need the Holy Spirit anymore since we have the Bible now."


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> First of all, the Holy Spirit is not an "it".
> 
> Second, has any believer on this board actually said, "We don’t need the Holy Spirit anymore since we have the Bible now."



Read the thread on "What, who is the authority on Christianity" and you will see plenty of people who said that.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 8, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Read the thread on "What, who is the authority on Christianity" and you will see plenty of people who said that.



I think you've misinterpreted what someone said.  If you disagree, please point out a specific post.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I think you've misinterpreted what someone said.  If you disagree, please point out a specific post.



You pretty much have to read the whole thread on "What, who is the authority" and "Snake salvation".

In the authority thread:
74,  76,  88,  94,  96,  100,  and 103  are related.

In the snake salvation thread:
12,  14,  and  82  are related.

If you don't want to read the whole thing, then just look at post #82 in the Snake salvation thread for a summary.


----------



## Bama4me (Nov 8, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> You pretty much have to read the whole thread on "What, who is the authority" and "Snake salvation".
> 
> In the authority thread:
> 74,  76,  88,  94,  96,  100,  and 103  are related.
> ...



Since some of these posts are my comments, maybe I can cast light on the subject. I've never said "we don't need the Holy Spirit" in the sense you're implying.

What I DID say is that the role the Holy Spirit plays today in the lives of Christians differs from the role He played in the lives of first century Christians.  With the word that He inspired men to write, the Holy Spirit's direct guidance is no longer needed - the word meets that need now.

To say, however, that the Holy Spirit is no longer needed is to say "God's no longer needed."  To claim one of His roles has ceased does NOT imply He is somehow "useless."

Anyway... if the issue you're having is with the things I've said, why not ask me why you believe I contradicted myself?  I'm pretty sure I've been consistent in all things I've written in those threads.  That doesn't mean that all the other people on this board will agree with me though.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 8, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Since some of these posts are my comments, maybe I can cast light on the subject. I've never said "we don't need the Holy Spirit" in the sense you're implying.
> 
> What I DID say is that the role the Holy Spirit plays today in the lives of Christians differs from the role He played in the lives of first century Christians.  With the word that He inspired men to write, the Holy Spirit's direct guidance is no longer needed - the word meets that need now.
> 
> ...



I don't believe you have contradicted yourself on the subject of the Holy Spirit. You have made it perfectly clear that the guidance of the Holy Spirit is through the Bible only. 
I must agree with HawgJawl on others though including myself.  We have a harder time explaining our beliefs on what God does, what Jesus does, what the Holy Spirit does, what Satan does, and what we do. There are so many entities in my life it is confusing as to which one does what. Throw in Free will and it gets even more confusing. Throw in prayer and even more confusion on if we can change God's mind to intervene. 
So yes people say one thing on one thread and another thing on a different thread. One example is saying God is in total control on one thread and we have control on another thread. On one thread a person might separate God into one of the three persons of the Godhead performing a certain task and yet saying they are all the same on another. 
Maybe we don't really know who or how much the different entities play in our lives compared to us or Satan.
So yes we do contradict ourselves frequently.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 10, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Since some of these posts are my comments, maybe I can cast light on the subject. I've never said "we don't need the Holy Spirit" in the sense you're implying.
> 
> What I DID say is that the role the Holy Spirit plays today in the lives of Christians differs from the role He played in the lives of first century Christians.  With the word that He inspired men to write, the Holy Spirit's direct guidance is no longer needed - the word meets that need now.
> 
> ...





HawgJawl said:


> When I ask seemingly simple questions, it doesn’t take long for the answers to become increasingly vague.
> 
> QUESTION:  When you see the word “believer” or one who “believeth” in scripture, do you consider that word to describe you?
> 
> ...



The point of this post is to compare the Christian definition of the word "believer" or one who "believes" from one verse to another.  When a verse mentions a believer in a manner that we like, it is all about us.  When a verse mentions a believer in a manner that we're uncomfortable with, we come up with all sorts of reasons that it is talking about someone else or is no longer relevant.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Nov 10, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The point of this post is to compare the Christian definition of the word "believer" or one who "believes" from one verse to another.  When a verse mentions a believer in a manner that we like, it is all about us.  When a verse mentions a believer in a manner that we're uncomfortable with, we come up with all sorts of reasons that it is talking about someone else or is no longer relevant.



Hawg.  You just described me to a Tee.   I have been wrestling with this for some time now.  See: 
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=759907&highlight=


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## HawgJawl (Nov 11, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Hawg.  You just described me to a Tee.   I have been wrestling with this for some time now.  See:
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=759907&highlight=



Thank you for your honesty.  Most folks on here refuse to admit, or perhaps can't even see that they do the exact same thing.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Nov 11, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Thank you for your honesty.  Most folks on here refuse to admit, or perhaps can't even see that they do the exact same thing.



What about you Hawg?  Where do you fall on the continuum between the metaphorical and moving mountains with your voice if I may ask?


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## HawgJawl (Nov 11, 2013)

When I was in high school, I had unquestionable faith.  I believed everything my pastor told me.  If there was ever a time in my life when I should have been able to perform miracles or receive miracles through prayer, it should have been then.  No miracles.  No answered prayers.  

I began to question.  I read the Bible (the entire Bible) many times and began researching with resources other than the Bible.  The more I researched, the more questions I developed.  I haven't had true faith since then.

My measure of faith back then was what Jesus promised in scripture to those who believe.  Even though I know that I don't have that kind of faith now, I see no reason to lower my measure of faith to meet my current situation just to make myself feel better.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 11, 2013)

If you were Peter, try to imagine all the different excuses you could come up with for why you sank into the sea.  There are so many possibilities that with enough research and preparation could be very convincing.


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 11, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If you were Peter, try to imagine all the different excuses you could come up with for why you sank into the sea.  There are so many possibilities that with enough research and preparation could be very convincing.



If I'm Peter I'm trying to remember precisely what is was that enabled me to walk on water in the first place.  Everyone sinks.


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 11, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> When I was in high school, I had unquestionable faith.  I believed everything my pastor told me.  If there was ever a time in my life when I should have been able to perform miracles or receive miracles through prayer, it should have been then.  No miracles.  No answered prayers.
> 
> I began to question.  I read the Bible (the entire Bible) many times and began researching with resources other than the Bible.  The more I researched, the more questions I developed.  I haven't had true faith since then.
> 
> My measure of faith back then was what Jesus promised in scripture to those who believe.  Even though I know that I don't have that kind of faith now, I see no reason to lower my measure of faith to meet my current situation just to make myself feel better.



This is what I think, and it's based on my experiences and not my perception of yours.  God gives me faith based on my need and my ability to use it wisely.  When I was 5 or so I remember hearing about the ability to move mountains if you had enough faith.  I figured it would be great if I could walk on air so time after time, again and again I would stand on my Grandmothers porch, look up at the sky, profess my faith in God and step off into thin air.  On the third time it worked.  I actually stayed suspended in mid air momentarily.

Just kidding.  Time after time predictably gravity won and I hit the ground.

Did this prove God doesn't work miracles?  I don't think so.
Did it prove I didn't have enough faith?  Maybe, maybe not.  I had as much faith as a 5 year old could have.

I'm now much older and I have as much faith as I did then, but I also have, I hope,  a better understanding of God.  That being said, I still can't see beyond the veil.  I believe God can and does do miracles, I just don't know when his will and my will line up, because I don't understand what his end plan is for anything that is outside scripture and some of what is IN scripture.  I only know this; I trust that when I petition him for something I am heard, and I fully believe that when the day comes and I am able to see behind the veil again, whether he acted or not on my petition will have been for the best.  

Now is that a cop out, a bending of scriptures to meet my lack of belief?  Not if every day I ask God to make me suitable enough that one day I can be judged by him as having enough wisdom and discernment that I can be trusted with the power that amount of faith brings. 

I can tell you this.  As a 5 year old or as a young man I wasn't ready for that endowment if it had been placed on me.  I may very well not be ready for it now, but I trust he will give me what I'm capable of handling.   Maybe, just maybe that pertains to you too.

One other note on Peter walking on the water.  Don't forget Jesus commanded him to come.  Peter didn't just hop out on his own whim.  He was doing what he was first bade to do.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 12, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If I'm Peter I'm trying to remember precisely what is was that enabled me to walk on water in the first place.  Everyone sinks.



Peter walking on water has always interested me as an example of the tremendous amount of faith required to perform a miracle.

How much faith is required?
Enough faith to leave your regular life behind and follow Christ - Not enough faith.
After personally walking with Jesus and speaking with Jesus daily - Not enough.
After personally witnessing Christ perform miracles - Not enough.
Seeing Jesus standing right in front of you, walking on water, as He tells you to do the same - Not enough.

And some people today boast about the amount of faith they have.  I don't believe for one second that anyone has more faith today than Peter did in that situation.  If Peter did not have enough faith in that situation to perform a miracle, it seems very clear to me that the number one reason a person today may not be able to perform a miracle is also lack of faith.  

Take away all the factors listed above for Peter that should have served to strengthen his faith and compare yourself to that level of faith today.  Anyone who professes to have more faith than Peter did, is not being honest with themselves.  Everyone has a lack of faith when compared to that standard.  

Some people explain how the standard has changed, or certain things are no longer relevant, or the Bible took the place of certain things, in order to make themselves feel better about their lack of faith.  But try to imagine yourself being Peter and try telling yourself that you would have much less faith in Jesus (than you do now) if you were Peter.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 12, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> This is what I think, and it's based on my experiences and not my perception of yours.  God gives me faith based on my need and my ability to use it wisely.  When I was 5 or so I remember hearing about the ability to move mountains if you had enough faith.  I figured it would be great if I could walk on air so time after time, again and again I would stand on my Grandmothers porch, look up at the sky, profess my faith in God and step off into thin air.  On the third time it worked.  I actually stayed suspended in mid air momentarily.
> 
> Just kidding.  Time after time predictably gravity won and I hit the ground.
> 
> ...



The miracles I prayed for were more along the lines of healing of a family member or a member of my church family.  Some earlier prayers were for my father to stop abusing my mother, brother, and me.  Come to think of it, I never prayed for my father to stop abusing me because I thought that would be a self-serving prayer.  I only prayed for him to stop abusing my mother and brother.  I accepted that I could take the abuse for the whole family.  

Even though no help came in that area, I still believed.  I seriously considered becoming a pastor.  That's when I started researching Christianity in depth.  And the more I learned, the less faith I had.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 12, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The miracles I prayed for were more along the lines of healing of a family member or a member of my church family.  Some earlier prayers were for my father to stop abusing my mother, brother, and me.  Come to think of it, I never prayed for my father to stop abusing me because I thought that would be a self-serving prayer.  I only prayed for him to stop abusing my mother and brother.  I accepted that I could take the abuse for the whole family.
> 
> Even though no help came in that area, I still believed.  I seriously considered becoming a pastor.  That's when I started researching Christianity in depth.  And the more I learned, the less faith I had.



What did you learn that crushed your faith?


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 12, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Some people explain how the standard has changed, or certain things are no longer relevant, or the Bible took the place of certain things, in order to make themselves feel better about their lack of faith.  But try to imagine yourself being Peter and try telling yourself that you would have much less faith in Jesus (than you do now) if you were Peter.



I agree


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 12, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The miracles I prayed for were more along the lines of healing of a family member or a member of my church family.  Some earlier prayers were for my father to stop abusing my mother, brother, and me.  Come to think of it, I never prayed for my father to stop abusing me because I thought that would be a self-serving prayer.  I only prayed for him to stop abusing my mother and brother.  I accepted that I could take the abuse for the whole family.
> 
> Even though no help came in that area, I still believed.  I seriously considered becoming a pastor.  That's when I started researching Christianity in depth.  And the more I learned, the less faith I had.



That's the thing about Christ and understanding his teachings, at least it was for me.  It was too simple.  It's ALL to simple.  That's why it's such a stumbling block for the educated.  The more educated; generally the less faith.  It's why we must become as a child again to really grasp it.  I  think faith is like the Gospel in that regard.  It has only to be accepted.  If you start to think about it, how or why it works it begins to fade rather quickly.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 12, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That's the thing about Christ and understanding his teachings, at least it was for me.  It was too simple.  It's ALL to simple.  That's why it's such a stumbling block for the educated.  The more educated; generally the less faith.  It's why we must become as a child again to really grasp it.  I  think faith is like the Gospel in that regard.  It has only to be accepted.  If you start to think about it, how or why it works it begins to fade rather quickly.



It wasn't a matter of trying to figure out how it works.  I couldn't see it working at all.

The most Christ-like lady I've ever known was my Sunday school teacher.  She was truly humble and couldn't understand why other people thought so highly of her.  When she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, her church family rallied to her side.  When her condition worsened, her church family, including myself, met at church for several evenings for the sole purpose of praying for her. 

Let me be clear about this.  There was no church service, no singing, no preaching, no alter call.  We met at church to pray for her and we went home.

When she started withering away to nothing, we prayed for either her recovery or for God to take her home.

When she was just a shell of the person she used to be, unrecognizable to people who had known her for years, we gave up on a recovery and just prayed for her suffering to end.

We got nothing we prayed for.  She deserved better.  She suffered month after month.  More people than just me lost faith from that experience.  If God had a purpose in making her suffer for so long, it must have been to turn dedicated Christians away from Him because that's exactly what happened.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 13, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> It wasn't a matter of trying to figure out how it works.  I couldn't see it working at all.
> 
> The most Christ-like lady I've ever known was my Sunday school teacher.  She was truly humble and couldn't understand why other people thought so highly of her.  When she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, her church family rallied to her side.  When her condition worsened, her church family, including myself, met at church for several evenings for the sole purpose of praying for her.
> 
> ...



Ah! I read you now. I have a good friend that experienced the near same thing. He has talked to me about it more than once.  He and other members of his church would go to hospital and "pray over" patients, but as you say, "Nothing happened."


He still continues with great faith but however he is rather put off by organized religion. I shall talk to him again soon.

For now I will try to say what I have that can be yours. First I have the gospel.  First I have Jesus. And next I have faith. And perhaps as you once had your being full of faith I have it now also. And perhaps I can loose it as you did.

Lets say just as a point of conversation that faith is two big bangs or baskets of berries. They are full, two baskets, full of ripe ready to burst berries. The berries are so ripe that if we dropped the baskets most of the berries would burst and became useless and not only useless but all the time and effort at picking and placing the berries in the baskets would go to waste.

Now the baskets we can carry them with our two hands, or we can if it is the craft of our culture carry them on our heads, but I think it is perhaps good to carry them on our backs----but do we? A back carry permits all four limbs the possibility of helping with maintianing balance as we proceed. 

Did you carry your faith in your hands, on your head, or on your back. What I have found is that if you can strap the faith on your back--you don't have to be tender with it, you don't have to chase the easy ways so you don't pitch pole with the baskets flying over your head as you hand reach up there trying to maintian balance.


Now lets talk about everybody's faith in your account of the lady y'all prayed for who had pancreatic cancer. Yes, lets talk about in which way you and your fellow saints carried their faith and ALSO don't forget, "What do you know about how the saintly lady carried here faith?" Did she make-up herself to be strong in your eyes, yet she carried the fragile faith of many on her fingertips?

Do you know? Do you know that the right Jesus was preached to all, the right gospel? If it was, not the faith was not right perhaps.

I serve an old veteran with dementia at work. I often hum or sing while with him. We have this running gag going. At some point in a song, I'll ask, " Do you think I can sing? To which he replies, " You can carry a note; (pause) But not too far." Or he will say, " You can carry a note--but careful you don't drop it." 

I don't have all the answers but there is a way to carry faith that it meshes with one's being to the point that loosing it would be akin to looseing one's life itself. This loss might be temporary, it might be absent and the person as the homeless person wondering the street. But it can be picked up again. And at first it is picked up by the fingertips, next held in both hands and next it is put on like a work pants or a suit as it gets up early in the morning for work, and next it is strapped to the back on packs like trophy hunters use to bring back game home and then it is. It just is.

And it all starts as it always has, it is fundamental  that it starts with Jesus---even if it is the fiftyth time you turn again to him.

And of my faith to be sufficient to know miracles, for now this is all I know on it and all I have and it is not in my hands.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 13, 2013)

If I understand correctly, you are saying that there exists somewhere people of the proper and correct faith who are adhering to the proper and correct gospel who are capable of asking for and receiving miracles through prayer.

Maybe our prayer group didn't qualify, but there exists those who do.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 13, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If I understand correctly, you are saying that there exists somewhere people of the proper and correct faith who are adhering to the proper and correct gospel who are capable of asking for and receiving miracles through prayer.
> 
> Maybe our prayer group didn't qualify, but there exists
> 
> those who do.



Ah maybe I'm partly saying such a thing, maybe not. Maybe I should have talked less on faith and more on Jesus and what He said. 

What I'm saying is that the problem might be like it was with Peter. His was not so much a problem of faith, as a problem of "belief" that Jesus was who he was. Peter never denied there was such a thing as faith, however...he denied  knowing Jesus.

Maybe your problem and the church group problem was not faith itself, it was Jesus and the gospel and He still is and the gospel is still nebulous? Maybe.. there was in the long and complex prayers not the shorter prayers of a simpler big picture?

 Qualitative faith against qualitative faith is not a substitute for God vs. false Gods. Maybe you and your fellows were crowned on the head by a pretender? Maybe. Maybe what you prayed the world would not possess, once loosed returned  to possess you? And haveing no self-defense  you will not admit you cannot minister your own ressurection. What is missing is not faith, it is Jesus.

Perhaps the acid test of life is not the fruits of the faith, but the fruits of the Spirit? Perhaps, maybe, .... we all need to return to the table with christians again, instead of giving them up as belonging to the world?


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## HawgJawl (Nov 13, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Ah maybe I'm partly saying such a thing, maybe not. Maybe I should have talked less on faith and more on Jesus and what He said.
> 
> What I'm saying is that the problem might be like it was with Peter. His was not so much a problem of faith, as a problem of "belief" that Jesus was who he was. Peter never denied there was such a thing as faith, however...he denied  knowing Jesus.
> 
> ...



What Jesus said to Peter was oh ye of little faith.  Jesus also said that if Peter and the other disciples had faith the size of a mustard seed they could perform miracles.

Again, the picture you are painting is that the problem with my prayer group was that it wasn't "something".  No matter what the definition of that "something" is, the premise rests on that "something" actually existing.  If that "something" doesn't exist, then your statement makes absolutely no sense.

If you can show me a "something" that actually works, then I can easily compare mine to it and see what is missing.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 13, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> What Jesus said to Peter was oh ye of little faith.  Jesus also said that if Peter and the other disciples had faith the size of a mustard seed they could perform miracles.
> 
> Again, the picture you are painting is that the problem with my prayer group was that it wasn't "something".  No matter what the definition of that "something" is, the premise rests on that "something" actually existing.  If that "something" doesn't exist, then your statement makes absolutely no sense.
> 
> If you can show me a "something" that actually works, then I can easily compare mine to it and see what is missing.



Knowing  how and to pray for your abusive father is my something--knowing to pray for everbody else except him, including for your mother, your brother and your pain and your discomforts is your something. Knowing to forgive your abusive father is my something. Knowing to blame your father and the world for your crippled backbone is your something. 

God's will be done is my something. Your will against God's word is your something. So I have to ask, what Jesus did you know that puts your mind and spirit to such tasks?

My something is that within the body of Christ and from the body of Christ, miracles do happen? They are countless and documented. That these are all important and their verification, to you might not be what you need.

Not all members of the body of Christ have the same gifts. Someone who ministers the gospel through song is not nesscesarly given to the laying of the hands, or prayer for  healing folk in the name of Jesus.

That men and women in Christ in our society are given today to walk on the ancient spiritual mountains with Christ, and that they proceed to heal whole peoples and nations is this not a miracle you witness today?

These saints do what no presidents can, what no united nations can, what no politicians can, what no political party or philosophy can, what no thousands of prayer warriors like you were  able to do--they do. 

This is not a miracle to you, because you believe not in Jesus--no matter what quantitities and qualities of faith you claim or claimed to possess.

Now isn't that something? Bet you say no it is not. You never believed, you were just comfortable. And that comfort taken away leaves you to what you always were, an unbeliever? Perhaps.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 13, 2013)

People point to things and call them "miracles".  People attribute those "miracles" to the god they choose to believe in.  

I cannot claim an event to be a miracle from Jesus unless it is something that no one from any other religion can do or be granted by their god.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 13, 2013)

In order for your explanation to work, not only must I be an "unbeliever" but everyone else in the prayer group and the victim of the cancer as well.  But we should go further and say that no one I ever met was a true believer either since I have never met anyone who was able to do the miracles promised by Jesus.

You speak of this ability as something that actually exists today.  Please point me in that direction and I will seek it out.  

You provide explanations for why I am unable to do something as if you or anyone else is able to do it.

If you are able to move a mountain into the sea through prayer, please demonstrate that and in the process you will truly glorify God and win literally millions of souls for Christ.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 13, 2013)

If a Christian has enough faith, they can walk on water, right?

There are many "experts" who can explain why I am having trouble walking on water.  The "experts" can tell me where I am lacking.  They can critique my failed attempts to walk on water.  They can even offer their insight on what I need to do in order to be able to walk on water.  They profess their belief in the ability to walk on water while they stand on dry ground.  They have never walked on water personally nor have they ever witnessed anyone else walk on water, but their faith is strong in the ability to walk on water.

I would listen intently to instruction from someone who is currently standing in the middle of the lake.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 13, 2013)

The more I think about it, the more comfortable I get with your explanation.  The reason I can't perform the miracles Jesus promised is because I am not a true believer.

I'm perfectly fine with that explanation as long as it is applied universally.  Anyone who is unable to perform the miracles promised by Jesus is obviously not a true believer.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 13, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The more I think about it, the more comfortable I get with your explanation.  The reason I can't perform the miracles Jesus promised is because I am not a true believer.
> 
> I'm perfectly fine with that explanation as long as it is applied universally.  Anyone who is unable to perform the miracles promised by Jesus is obviously not a true believer.



O course that is not what I said. The reason why you don't know how, when and where to apply your faith is because you are not a believer.

There are more than one way to skin a cat as there are to turn water into wine or bread to flesh and wine to blood or a invalid to wholeness... Right standing makes these things possible.

Now as to walking on water...Peter in his walk to Christ, seeing the violence of the sea, becomes fearful and started to loose his footing. He was skirrred! of the termoil...of the world and the waters perhaps? This is not a good attitude to have if you are going to try to tackle dominions and pricipalities on  the gospel train, eh?

Mark tells us that the desciples had difficulty understanding these ( walking on water and the multiplications of bread) miracles because they were at this time " of closed spirits" concerning these. These were precursors...which would be understood in the coming Kingdom.  Precursors lessens of what kind of faith was required in the coming Kingdom not concerning miracles but concerning one's walk in Christ.

When Jesus healed the centurion's servant, Jesus offered to go to the centurion's house, however the centurion said, "Just say one word." Now that this is fundamental to having one's mind and heart in Christ.

So yes there is no need of such miracles today and I understand many have told you this and that these miracles  have served their purpose. No need for them now. The body of Christ is now to greater ones. 

And this:"And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." Genesis 1:1 So, I don't know but as a spiritual account Jesus walking on water was surely a case that the earth and the heaven were being recreated or redeemed to its original designs... Perhaps... and again there is no need for any miracles like this now... for obvious reasons.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 13, 2013)

I am not ashamed of my poverty but account it not as some their pride.


Psalm 14 

King James Version (KJV)


14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the Lord is his refuge.

7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
-------------------------------------------------

On issues of Justice and Injustice there is just one word to know and to know it is miracle enough for this generation.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 13, 2013)

I disagree that there is no need for miracles today, and I disagree that Jesus promised the ability to perform miracles only to the disciples as opposed to "those who believe".


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## gordon 2 (Nov 13, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I disagree that there is no need for miracles today, and I disagree that Jesus promised the ability to perform miracles only to the disciples as opposed to "those who believe".



I agree with you, there is great need for miracles today and that Jesus promised believers that they would do miracles greater than his, today!

Did you get to the point in your studies where, " The operative hermeneutical principle in the New Testament was prophecy fulfillment." I try to keep this close in mind when reading it. And regards the miracles of Jesus and the saints, it is always somewhere in my mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics#Apostolic_Age


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 13, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> It wasn't a matter of trying to figure out how it works.  I couldn't see it working at all.
> 
> The most Christ-like lady I've ever known was my Sunday school teacher.  She was truly humble and couldn't understand why other people thought so highly of her.  When she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, her church family rallied to her side.  When her condition worsened, her church family, including myself, met at church for several evenings for the sole purpose of praying for her.
> 
> ...



Yet, I'm guessing she stayed true?


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## HawgJawl (Nov 13, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> I agree with you, there is great need for miracles today and that Jesus promised believers that they would do miracles greater than his, today!
> 
> Did you get to the point in your studies where, " The operative hermeneutical principle in the New Testament was prophecy fulfillment." I try to keep this close in mind when reading it. And regards the miracles of Jesus and the saints, it is always somewhere in my mind.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics#Apostolic_Age



All of it is just another way to justify why you can't perform the miracles Jesus promised to those who believe and have faith.  There are numerous theories developed over the years to explain why "I can't perform miracles".  None of these theories are based upon the reason Jesus gave for His own disciple's inability to perform miracles.  These theories put the blame somewhere else or advance the idea that God no longer works that way.  

It's much easier and more comfortable for me to state that God no longer performs miracles than for me to admit that if I were righteous enough, God would hear my prayer and grant me that miracle.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 13, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yet, I'm guessing she stayed true?



Yes, as far I she expressed to others, she stayed true.  Her husband could not understand why God would just sit back and watch this awful degree of suffering from such a loving and dedicated warrior for Christ.  He gave up on a recovery and just wanted her to die in peace instead of this long suffering.

Asking God to take a dedicated Christian home as opposed to letting them suffer in pain for months does not seem to me to be a great deal to ask of God.  That would not be a tremendous miracle.  That would be love and mercy.  Love and mercy for a righteous follower of Christ.  Was that too much to ask?  Apparently it was.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 14, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> All of it is just another way to justify why you can't perform the miracles Jesus promised to those who believe and have faith.  There are numerous theories developed over the years to explain why "I can't perform miracles".  None of these theories are based upon the reason Jesus gave for His own disciple's inability to perform miracles.  These theories put the blame somewhere else or advance the idea that God no longer works that way.
> 
> It's much easier and more comfortable for me to state that God no longer performs miracles than for me to admit that if I were righteous enough, God would hear my prayer and grant me that miracle.



And so it is.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 14, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> I agree with you, there is great need for miracles today and that Jesus promised believers that they would do miracles greater than his, today!



Can you personally perform miracles greater than Jesus did?

Do you personally know a "believer" today with enough faith to perform miracles greater than Jesus?


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## HawgJawl (Nov 14, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> It's much easier and more comfortable for me to state that God no longer performs miracles than for me to admit that if I were righteous enough, God would hear my prayer and grant me that miracle.





gordon 2 said:


> And so it is.



I meant that statement for not only me but for everyone on this forum and everyone I know who calls themselves Christians and makes excuses for why they can't do the things Jesus promised "believers" would be able to do.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 14, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Can you personally perform miracles greater than Jesus did?
> 
> Do you personally know a "believer" today with enough faith to perform miracles greater than Jesus?



Martin Luther King an ordinary man achieved through faith a miracle in his ministry greater than Jesus's ( God) walking on water. While Jesus' walking on water was a sign for today's believers, MLK's was a walk and a sign for his day's oppressors. Nelson's Mendella and the people of South Africa are a miracle of faith. (Note that I don't personally know these people.)

As for myself ( and through faith) personally performing miracles greater than Jesus, no not yet. But we're working on it, trying..trying to open a few more doors in the heart of people regards God's justice. As a greater miracle then the parting of the sea, it might just cut it.

Of course this is all foolishness to you.... right? Or it is not foolish at all...?


Would you consider Iranians becoming a majority christian people--a miracle? Just curious? How about cutting US  yearly gun deaths in half from ten thousand a yr to five thousand?


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## HawgJawl (Nov 14, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Martin Luther King an ordinary man achieved through faith a miracle in his ministry greater than Jesus's ( God) walking on water. While Jesus' walking on water was a sign for today's believers, MLK's was a walk and a sign for his day's oppressors. Nelson's Mendella and the people of South Africa are a miracle of faith. (Note that I don't personally know these people.)
> 
> As for myself ( and through faith) personally performing miracles greater than Jesus, no not yet. But we're working on it, trying..trying to open a few more doors in the heart of people regards God's justice. As a greater miracle then the parting of the sea, it might just cut it.
> 
> ...



Do you believe that Gandhi performed a miracle through faith in his Hindu god?  I didn't think so.

Even if those are miracles, that only serves to demonstrate that MLK and Mandella possessed enough belief and faith to get them into heaven.  What about the rest of us?

It is a misinterpretation of scripture to think that "belief in Jesus" only means to acknowledge that He is the Son of God who was sent to earth to die for our sins.  If that is all it takes to get into heaven then Satan will be in heaven too because Satan "believes" that.

"Belief in Christ" encompasses much more than that.  "Belief in Christ" is what it takes to perform miracles and is also what it takes to get into heaven.  There aren't two standards.  It's the same thing.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 14, 2013)

Hawg, do you attribute miracles to God or to man?


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## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe that Gandhi performed a miracle through faith in his Hindu god?  I didn't think so.
> 
> Even if those are miracles, that only serves to demonstrate that MLK and Mandella possessed enough belief and faith to get them into heaven.  What about the rest of us?
> 
> ...



Interesting point.  Does Satan believe that Jesus is gods only begotten son who died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected three days after death?  He probably knows it as a fact.

Wouldn't that make him a Christan?


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## gordon 2 (Nov 14, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Hawg, do you attribute miracles to God or to man?



Good question gem.  I have talked enough. I will let others talk for me in this tread. Like this guy:



Romans 1:19-21

King James Version (KJV)


19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 15, 2013)

False assumptions and sticking points of Hawgjawl's spirit exposed, those leading to false regard as to the need, the purpose and the kind of miracles wholesome to the saints for all times.


John 6:26-33

King James Version (KJV)


26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.


--------------------


John 6:34-35

King James Version (KJV)


34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

--------------------

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 15, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> False assumptions and sticking points of Hawgjawl's spirit exposed, those leading to false regard as to the need, the purpose and the kind of miracles wholesome to the saints for all times.
> 
> 
> John 6:26-33
> ...



That is consistent with what I have been saying.  And since then, we have lowered the bar for what we think constitutes "belief".

Jesus told the disciples that they did not have enough faith or belief to perform miracles but that they could perform even greater miracles than He if they did have enough faith or belief.

The disciples, leaving their regular lives behind to follow Jesus, walking and talking with Jesus daily, watching Jesus perform miracles, had a tremendous amount of faith and belief in Jesus.  But it still wasn't enough sometimes.

Today, we have much less faith than the disciples did because we have to take much more on faith than they did.  They had to take a portion on faith but they also had what they personally saw with their own eyes and heard with their own ears.

We obviously have less faith than the disciples, so when we are unable to perform miracles, I don't blame it on God.  He made it clear that the bar was extremely high for the amount of faith and belief required.  That has not changed.  We have.  If a person cannot perform a miracle, it is because that person does not possess the required level of faith and belief in Jesus.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 15, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Hawg, do you attribute miracles to God or to man?



I attribute all miracles to God.  The type of miracles I am speaking of are ones that are requested by a righteous person with sufficient faith and belief in Jesus for the miracle to be granted by God.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 15, 2013)

The word "believeth", from it's Greek root is much stronger than just to acknowledge.  It is to be confident and committed in trust.  That is not a black and white condition.  It is a condition with many varying degrees, and somewhere on the upper end of that scale is the minimum amount necessary in order to get into heaven and also perform miracles.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 15, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The word "believeth", from it's Greek root is much stronger than just to acknowledge.  It is to be confident and committed in trust.  That is not a black and white condition.  It is a condition with many varying degrees, and somewhere on the upper end of that scale is the minimum amount necessary in order to get into heaven and also perform miracles.



Many non Christians  believe in Jesus but not with much commitment. I don't think it's as black and white as some believers believe.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Many non Christians  believe in Jesus but not with much commitment. I don't think it's as black and white as some believers believe.



I agree, obviously.

I can proclaim that I am committed to a "cause", let's say for instance cancer research.

I am committed.  What does the word "committed" mean?

Maybe my commitment is to donate a substantial amount of money once a year.

Maybe my commitment is to coordinate the charity event.

Maybe I have a bank draft from every paycheck going to the cause?

Maybe when I say commitment I mean that I quit my job and volunteer full-time for the cause.

Maybe commitment means to give all that I have other than the clothes on my back to the cause.

"Commitment" to a cause can range from speaking favorably about it at cocktail parties to being willing to give your life for the cause.

If someone asked you if you would be willing to "commit" to a particular cause, you would probably have questions about what exactly that "commitment" entails.

Shouldn't you have the same questions about exactly what "commitment" to God entails?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 15, 2013)

It's hard to get people to even commit to a one time event such as a family function. They'll tell you they will commit but as the event gets closer, their commitment wains.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's hard to get people to even commit to a one time event such as a family function. They'll tell you they will commit but as the event gets closer, their commitment wains.



"Belief" in Jesus means being sure and confident, trusting consistently, and being completely committed to God.

Walking down to pray with the preacher during an alter call, making a public profession of faith and being baptized is much less than the definition of "belief".  Yet that is what is being preached as the requirement for salvation.

What is required to perform miracles (belief and faith) and what is required for salvation (belief and faith) is the same thing.

Here comes the HARD question that no Christian wants to hear:

If you do not have enough belief and faith to perform miracles, what makes you think you have enough belief and faith to get into heaven?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 15, 2013)

I can't answer your question on miracles but commitment is a part of Christianity that does involve more than an altar call and believing in Jesus as you suggested. One must surrender all.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 15, 2013)

When we see a loved one suffer in their final days and we question God and our faith, wouldn't you think God knows why and would forgive us of this momentary doubt? I question God and my faith from time to time. Kinda hard not to. It doesn't mean I stop believing in God.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 16, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> When we see a loved one suffer in their final days and we question God and our faith, wouldn't you think God knows why and would forgive us of this momentary doubt? I question God and my faith from time to time. Kinda hard not to. It doesn't mean I stop believing in God.



But it DOES mean you stop "believing" in God, if you consider the Greek root to the word written in scripture as opposed to our normal English definition of the word.  

Our English definition allows us to say that we "believe" in God if we simply acknowledge His existence.  That is not the proper definition of "believeth" from the Greek scripture.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 16, 2013)

The problem is our normal use of the word "believe".  It is the same word we use to indicate that we think that Santa Claus is real or to say that we think that someone is telling the truth.

It might be easier to comprehend if we do not use the word "believe" in scripture.  If we use the Greek root word "pisteuo" it may make it clearer.

If we "pisteuo" we will have salvation.  If we "pisteuo" all things are possible.  If we "pisteuo" we can perform greater miracles than Jesus.  

To "pisteuo" is much more complex and more difficult than our English word "believe".


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> But it DOES mean you stop "believing" in God, if you consider the Greek root to the word written in scripture as opposed to our normal English definition of the word.
> 
> Our English definition allows us to say that we "believe" in God if we simply acknowledge His existence.  That is not the proper definition of "believeth" from the Greek scripture.



So technically, if I died during a momentary lapse of disbelief, my salvation might be in peril. Even if I "fell away" for a day. I wouldn't be a believer for that particular day.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The problem is our normal use of the word "believe".  It is the same word we use to indicate that we think that Santa Claus is real or to say that we think that someone is telling the truth.
> 
> It might be easier to comprehend if we do not use the word "believe" in scripture.  If we use the Greek root word "pisteuo" it may make it clearer.
> 
> ...



What would a person do to "pisteuo" in Jesus?


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## HawgJawl (Nov 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> So technically, if I died during a momentary lapse of disbelief, my salvation might be in peril. Even if I "fell away" for a day. I wouldn't be a believer for that particular day.



Not if you believe Once Saved - Always Saved.

Some denominations believe that if you die during the commission of a sin, you are condemned.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> What would a person do to "pisteuo" in Jesus?



I couldn't tell you that because I don't know of anyone today who does.

Scripture is very clear on how to spot someone who does pisteuo.


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## Israel (Nov 17, 2013)

Hawg...do you mean to believe "into" Jesus...that is...to be so aligned in his life and faith...as to actually be converted away from this world and its ways?
Maybe being a total freak to the world, huh?
But maybe more than that, too, like able to raise the dead, heal the sick, speak with new tongues?


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## Israel (Nov 17, 2013)

Hawg...do you mean to believe "into" Jesus...that is...to be so aligned in his life and faith...as to actually be converted away from this world and its ways?
Maybe being a total freak to the world, huh?
But maybe more than that, too, like able to raise the dead, heal the sick, speak with new tongues?


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Yes, as far I she expressed to others, she stayed true.  Her husband could not understand why God would just sit back and watch this awful degree of suffering from such a loving and dedicated warrior for Christ.  He gave up on a recovery and just wanted her to die in peace instead of this long suffering.
> 
> Asking God to take a dedicated Christian home as opposed to letting them suffer in pain for months does not seem to me to be a great deal to ask of God.  That would not be a tremendous miracle.  That would be love and mercy.  Love and mercy for a righteous follower of Christ.  Was that too much to ask?  Apparently it was.



Hawg, I understand how watching a loved one suffer and die can cause you to question how God operates.  I don't think its possible to do so without asking "Why does it have to be this way?"  There's a lot of good answers, but in face of such suffering their validity is often overshadowed by emotion and the consequences can be lasting as in your case.  None of this however negates the validity of the answers I would provide you.  That being said, I won't bother with a thesis.  I will just say this one thing.  

God must know how we feel in times like that.  Pain and suffering must be personal to him also.   He watched his son be tortured and killed for a crime he did not commit.  He in fact, allowed it to happen.  How hard must that have been.  Knowing that it had to happen in order to redeem mankind could not have made it any easier to watch.  Yet the pain, misery and death had to take place.

We too must personally endure that ending once, but just remember this:  God does not work despite the pain, suffering and death.  He works through it.


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## Lead Poison (Nov 17, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Interesting point.  Does Satan believe that Jesus is gods only begotten son who died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected three days after death?  He probably knows it as a fact.
> 
> Wouldn't that make him a Christan?



Yes, Satan knows, but he will not accept.

You must accept Jesus.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 18, 2013)

Israel said:


> Hawg...do you mean to believe "into" Jesus...that is...to be so aligned in his life and faith...as to actually be converted away from this world and its ways?
> Maybe being a total freak to the world, huh?
> But maybe more than that, too, like able to raise the dead, heal the sick, speak with new tongues?



That sounds like a reasonable place to start, and see if it works.  Like I said, I don't "pisteuo" according to scripture, and I don't know of anyone today who does either, so I don't know exactly what it takes.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 18, 2013)

Lead Poison said:


> Yes, Satan knows, but he will not accept.
> 
> You must accept Jesus.



I agree with you.  Simple belief (as in believing in Santa Claus) is not enough.

What is your definition of "accept" and what would "acceptance" look like to a casual observer?


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## Israel (Nov 18, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I agree with you.  Simple belief (as in believing in Santa Claus) is not enough.
> 
> What is your definition of "accept" and what would "acceptance" look like to a casual observer?


You know brother, your questions and presentations I find a wonderful provocation.

I have to posit some "ifs", though which may seem to speak as "possibilities" inclusive of doubt...actually do not.
What I mean is that Paul wasn't afraid of this "If"...:
If Christ be not raised...
Which to me says "If this is true (and Paul certainly spoke as one convinced it was) then all prior ways of understandings, relatings, doings...is "off" so to speak.
Cause that is sure some "way out there stuff"...if you can receive it. I think you get me...right? Yet...it is the very thing...this way out there thing, upon which all our faith is based...the resurrection. 

So, time and again I seem to find myself, when I wander in my religious musings, line upon line "wisdoms" and precept upon precept "advances" that often seem to lead me far away from that simple truth and wondrous fact...Jesus is raised. 

So...these are the ifs that often then come into view...

The God of whom Jesus speaks is the way out there God...brought very near. cause "if" I believe in the God and Father of Jesus Christ...then I believe in the God who:

Can get a man to make a pilgrimage with the intent of plunging a dagger into his son's heart.
He can get men to leave everything they know and understand and wander in a place unknown to them. 
He can call men to rebuke Kings. 
He can call men to lay on one side for hundreds of days and then flip to the other. Just as a "sign".
He can get men to cut off part of their generative organ (I have often wondered...what kinda faith it would take for a man to do that the first time...not really knowing if the thing would even work after doing that)
He can tell a man...go and speak, while I prepare to take away the delight of your eyes. So, the man goes and speaks, and the Lord takes his wife in the evening.
He's the God who can take a disobedient servant, put him in the belly of fish, let him out...and this man still knows little of mercy. And yet, he (God) continues to converse with him...and instruct him.
Ultimately, "if" my faith is placed correctly...he can take a man, make of him SIN itself, though this man never sinned...have him die, and then resurrect him and sit him at his own right hand.
And it is to this only One...ultimately, I am always referred. Man, what might he do with me?

Obviously...this God...this God...really can't be contained.
What good would explanations do? He's wild to me...if I try to nail him down...either in my understandings or my explanations...he's always more...way more. If I try to make sense of the one who makes so little sense to me...me...who loves the chief seats at feasts, loves to be well spoken of, comforts, admirations...loves all the things I see Jesus spurn...well...the absolute perfection of his plan...to have someone not me...do for me what I see I could never do...

Well, even though I can't explain or define him...it also leaves me in a wild place...cause I can't deny, as much as reasonable evidences may want me to...this is so true that it looks absolutely crazy. But truth would have to.

So...what if all you have been through...was for my (and whoever else may be able to see it and receive it) benefit...and was to posit questions that provoke consideration of "what does it mean to be of the faith of Jesus Christ?"

I do like seeing crazy miraculous stuff done, I liked it when in a terrible funk, of anger, despite and misery, a brother simply prayed for me...and I palpably sensed the heavens above me open...actually, in a moment felt a darkness, cloudy gloom over me part...even though I had no desire for it...I previously felt perfectly normal in my bitterness of soul.
I liked it when I silently fasted for this patient I had met in such torment of body, never speaking his name or condition to anyone but the Lord...and the brother who was pastoring our small gathering swung by where I was and asked "wanna go to the hospital...I heard about this guy that really needs the Lord's help?"

I could give you many many more testimonies of ridiculous "coincidences", as I am sure many on this board could. And I love it when the Lord does that...can't deny it...I remain a sucker for explosive miraculous surprises of joy. I like it when the neurosurgeon calls my great granddaughter his miracle patient.

But that doesn't mean I must attribute a defect to those who had a less than joyous outcome. I see many who "deserve" better in my mind...but Lord, I'll take it. I'll gladly rejoice in that little girl...

Cause, if I accept the resurrection, then hey, all prior bets are off. The sick don't have to get dead, the dead even...don't have to stay that way.
And a brother's pointed questions, perhaps born out of the most grievous and painful experience he had suffered in his desires to follow Christ, become not a place of contention...but encouragement.

Bless you Hawg.


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## formula1 (Nov 18, 2013)

*Re:*

Oh how I love those ridiculous "coincidences"! May the power that raised Christ bring even more life to you and overwhelm you all with His Faithfulness!


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## formula1 (Nov 18, 2013)

*Re:*

This post I had failed to really read and listen to until today when my brother Israel made a comment.  Might I offer a few thoughts and a few miracles that I know of to consider:

1) The delivery of my own life from alcohol which in my family history was engrained and I was destined to follow was nothing short of a miracle of God.  In fact, it was accompanied by the very falling of the Holy Spirit on me as it occurred. I know this for this old southern Baptist spoke in a tongue he did not understand, of which such evidence is clearly defined in Scripture.  At the time, I did not know that I could be the victor, but I write to you today some 32 years later as victorious.  It really is irrelevant what someone else believes of my story, but it is given for you to ponder and hopefully recognize that God works in people.  He just loves us that much!

2) For you medical types, suppose I told you of a neurgenic bladder, or a brain tumor, or kidney failure?Suppose you knew someone who had been healed of all  three.  Well, I do know someone!  He is my 12 year old son! I get the joy to be personal witness of to the power of God and I saw him yesterday lifting his hands and praising the name of the Lord in church. Would that constitute miracles in your eyes? My eyes see it!  I don't know if yours will.

3) Have you ever seen or had an Alsheimers/dementia patient in your family who was at once the most wonderful servant of Christ when they were of sound mind? My mother is such a person today.  I used to think this was such an awful thing for one to experience yet now I know that it is the grace of God falling on a saint to spare her knowledge of her predicament. Now I get to see miracles almost every time I see her.  Remember, she knows no one who visits, can't speak a single sound word in a conversation, can't walk, has 2 broken hips, and many other issues.  But on some of our visits, she quotes scriptures clearly and speaks praises to the Most High God as if she sees something we do not see! It's an awesome thing that God has allowed me to experience!

God gives us these wonderful miracles as I have called them just because He loves us and He wants to!  I don't proclaim myself as one who deserved to experience a single one of them. But in His gifts, my appreciation of the greatest gift of all, that is righteousness received through grace, is even more a foundation and cornerstone of my life.  And it's not my righteousness for my own would never produce enough faith.  But is completely the righteousness of Christ granted to me by the Father himself.  I 'believe' and trust that His provision is true and genuine. And He has rewarded me these experiences to name a few!

The secret to seeing and performing miracles and the power of God working has not changed in the life of a believer.  It is contained in this scripture I believe:

John 5:19 
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

Only by relationship and a clear connection with the Father can His Son (or His adopted son) do anything of lasting value for the Gospel.  Whatever you see, however, you can do! And as I think about what I just said, oh, I know how little I see! That in my view is the substance of the issue we discuss!  God bless!


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## HawgJawl (Nov 18, 2013)

I started to post scripture that promises protection and prosperity to those who are obedient to God, but there are too many. So I chose these instead:

Mark 9:23
Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Matthew 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

John 14:12-14
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Mark 11:23-24
For verily I say unto you, That whatsoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

The many scriptures regarding protection and prosperity plus those quoted above indicate a promise of positive blessings for those deemed righteous by God.

In my view, a positive blessing is being granted something more or greater than an unbeliever, such as better health, fewer accidents, fewer crimes committed against you, easier success in your endeavors, etc.  When compared to the vast majority, it is clear that you are blessed because you are in a much better situation than most.

In my view, it is not a positive blessing when a bad situation exists which could have been worse if not for God's intervention.  It is not a positive blessing for the bleeding to finally stop.  It was a negative event for the bleeding to start at all.  

Most "miracles" I see reported are basically; something bad happened but thanks to God it wasn't as bad as it could have been and it's starting to get better.  The bad thing happening to you is a negative thing.  The bad thing getting better is still a negative thing, just not as negative as before.

If the bad thing never happened, that still wouldn't be a positive blessing, unless maybe if you were one of the very few who miraculously escaped it.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 18, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> In my view, a positive blessing is being granted something more or greater than an unbeliever


Much more. Much greater. Keep the physical blessings for yourself, take mine, all of them.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 18, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Much more. Much greater. Keep the physical blessings for yourself, take mine, all of them.



Scripture makes a distinction between blessings in heaven and blessings here on earth.  I am addressing the reported blessings here on earth.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 18, 2013)

Listening quietly and deliberatly over the ditches of semantics with the purpose of discernment is very difficult. Deliberately deciding to listen to the contrary winds in the ditches and call it discernment---is being outside of the christian cosmology.

Semantics are different in the world and in Christ. The world can claim all kinds of adjectives and essays on faith, salvation, and miracles and promises and other "spiritual lingo". But the world's words are no where of the same substance as to those who are in Christ as opposed to the world. 

The flesh of the world is not the flesh of the members of the body of Christ.  The spirit of the world is not in tune to the spirit of people of God. The kingdoms of the world know not the sovereignty of the Kingdom of the saints. The promises of God are to his people as a redeemed and wholesome people. They are discerned in the spirit same spirit who  formed them.  They are shored-by the sound doctrines of the faith.

The world reads inspired text out of context, because it is forming ideas that presume my god to be a false and sloven imagination. The world listens to the contrary winds echoing itself, its voice!, in its man made ditches-- and calls it listening. But they hear not and hearing not they miss the fulfillment of the promises that could be theirs in Christ.


Romans 9:8

King James Version (KJV)


8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 18, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I agree with you.  Simple belief (as in believing in Santa Claus) is not enough.
> 
> What is your definition of "accept" and what would "acceptance" look like to a casual observer?



We tell prospective believers to accept Jesus. Do we ever tell them how or what it means to accept Jesus? 
Acceptance is just another word like believing. 
Maybe it involves a new birth which requires leaving your old self and becoming a new person. This new person would be more like Jesus, possible even more like God. God was in Jesus who was in the apostles. Jesus wants us to be combined like that too. 
When I hear Jesus discuss this, it sounds more involved or deeper than earthly commitments. I don't believe it's complicated, just more to it than simply believing as we understand "believing."
I can compare our earthly marriage to our wives to our marriage to Jesus. Many comparisons to what love means in our personal relationships. Why would a man who loves his wife do some of the things a loving husband would do? Many say they love their wife but actions speak louder than words. Maybe we can add "love" to the list with believing and acceptance. 
Like David Platt said, is it that easy? 
I think not. The concept is easy but living a Chrsitian life isn't so easy. It's like our earthly marriage. We must work hard to make it work. We'll work till Jesus comes and then we'll be gathered home.
Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 19, 2013)

The man they call Jesus made some mud and put it on my eyes. He told me to go to Siloam and wash.  So I went and washed, and then I could see. ...

Where is this man[Jesus]?

I don't know. ...

A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. "Give glory to God by telling tbe truth," they said. "We know this man[Jesus] is a sinner."

He (the man who had been blind) replied "Whether he is a sinner or not I do not know.  One thing I do know.  I was blind but now I see!"

Then they asked him, "What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?" 

He answered.  "I have told you already and you did not listen.  Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples too?" ... .

Peace and certainty fills the former rebel who surrenders his arms at the cross.  He may not have answers for other rebels, but his heart knows things only knowable after the rebellion ends.  Jesus is Lord and Savior.


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## Israel (Nov 19, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> The man they call Jesus made some mud and put it on my eyes. He told me to go to Siloam and wash.  So I went and washed, and then I could see. ...
> 
> Where is this man[Jesus]?
> 
> ...


amen


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## hummerpoo (Nov 19, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> We tell prospective believers to accept Jesus. Do we ever tell them how or what it means to accept Jesus?
> Acceptance is just another word like believing.
> Maybe it involves a new birth which requires leaving your old self and becoming a new person. This new person would be more like Jesus, possible even more like God. God was in Jesus who was in the apostles. Jesus wants us to be combined like that too.
> When I hear Jesus discuss this, it sounds more involved or deeper than earthly commitments. I don't believe it's complicated, just more to it than simply believing as we understand "believing."
> ...





BT Charlie said:


> The man they call Jesus made some mud and put it on my eyes. He told me to go to Siloam and wash.  So I went and washed, and then I could see. ...
> 
> Where is this man[Jesus]?
> 
> ...


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## formula1 (Nov 19, 2013)

*Re:*

Great posts Art and BT!


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## clayservant (Nov 19, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Much more. Much greater. Keep the physical blessings for yourself, take mine, all of them.



I will take them, I need them as long as I am on this earth to get the gospel out, it takes money. so give me all you want and I will turn it into changed lives.


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## formula1 (Nov 19, 2013)

*Re:*



clayservant said:


> I will take them, I need them as long as I am on this earth to get the gospel out, it takes money. so give me all you want and I will turn it into changed lives.



Amen!  We need all for the gospel!

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

And besides, we already have the spiritual blessings!

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places

More good news!


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## HawgJawl (Nov 19, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Listening quietly and deliberatly over the ditches of semantics with the purpose of discernment is very difficult. Deliberately deciding to listen to the contrary winds in the ditches and call it discernment---is being outside of the christian cosmology.
> 
> Semantics are different in the world and in Christ. The world can claim all kinds of adjectives and essays on faith, salvation, and miracles and promises and other "spiritual lingo". But the world's words are no where of the same substance as to those who are in Christ as opposed to the world.
> 
> ...



In order to reduce the amount of scripture I post, could you let me know which part I am misunderstanding?

Do you agree that scripture promises some blessings for the righteous "here on earth"?

Do you agree that scripture promises some curses for the unrighteous "here on earth"?

Do you agree that scripture promises some tangible or measurable things as blessings for the righteous "here on earth"?


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## gordon 2 (Nov 19, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> In order to reduce the amount of scripture I post, could you let me know which part I am misunderstanding?
> 
> Do you agree that scripture promises some blessings for the righteous "here on earth"?
> 
> ...



Scripture promises nothing, yet My answer is NO! to every question. I do not agree! Now my No! is the short answer and Matthew 5 is the long answer. 

This might just be you lucky day, you might just be able to kill a demon and id yourself a prodical son! Here is water for you. Drink it if you want. The water is Matthew 5. And here is a sip:


Matthew 5:45

King James Version (KJV)


45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
------------------
WOW! 

The only tangible promise I can put my Yes to regards the tangible outcome of the promise of God for me and my brothers is the promise of the Kingdom as per the new covenant Kingdom of the saints---; What is promised concering the Kingdom is given to those in the beloved. And that's a fact Jack! 

The rest, the promises you list is hawgwash because it banks on ancient pagan understandings and  polytheistic beliefs. It hails from a cosmos, a world older even than the hebrews--when man was blind and reasoned with  fallacies and vain imaginations.

My No is Matthew 5. So No! I don't agree with any on your questions. Your questions are formed from a world without form. My answer is from a world formed of His promise. So No. Scripture promises nothing. But Jesus promises the Kingdom. That is all I got and so it is yours if you what it.  In the mean time read Matthew 5. That's were it's at, my No. 

Now I got to go back to work... later my friend. No polemics please. I'd rather clean my clean hawkins than entertain rants.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 19, 2013)

It sounds as if you are stating that the Old Testament writings are inaccurate.  Perhaps I misunderstand.

In Mark 10:29-30 Jesus makes a clear distinction between the promises of blessings here on earth and that of eternal life in heaven.  Jesus said, verily I say unto you, there is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s, but he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.


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## clayservant (Nov 20, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> It sounds as if you are stating that the Old Testament writings are inaccurate.  Perhaps I misunderstand.
> 
> In Mark 10:29-30 Jesus makes a clear distinction between the promises of blessings here on earth and that of eternal life in heaven.  Jesus said, verily I say unto you, there is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s, but he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.



Amen, NOW in this life. the devil wants to keep believers broke so they cannot spread the gospel, A christian that says all he wants is enough to get by is selfish, get the money and give it to places that spread the gospel, and keep it out of the devils hands.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 20, 2013)

Here are a few more from the New Testament, just in case you believe that the Old Testament is no longer applicable.

Matthew 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

John 14:12-14
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Mark 11:23-24
For verily I say unto you, That whatsoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

Romans 8:32 states he that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also feely give us all things?  

Philippians 4:19 states my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. 

Luke 6:38 states give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom.  For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.  

Matthew 7:7, 8, & 11 states ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.  If ye then, being evil, know how to give gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?


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## gordon 2 (Nov 27, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Here are a few more from the New Testament, just in case you believe that the Old Testament is no longer applicable.
> 
> Matthew 21:22
> And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
> ...



How beautiful are the verses you have chosen. They promise to raise up the body and the soul of man to such esteem that his reality becomes wholesome and without dissention to those who believe.

They are like a man seeing the beauty created in a handsome woman who intern sees in her the greater beautiful of God and God's greater purposes for him. OH! How his greatest contemplation on her graces becomes a contemplation of Him.

Say, "Man is a prisoner of beauty and God is the most beautiful. Like a mother He gives away His spirit and his body and so it is that he gives love to all his children, so that in turn they love Him and one another."

 I pray that He binds you to paradise and his family.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 27, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> How beautiful are the verses you have chosen. They promise to raise up the body and the soul of man to such esteem that his reality becomes wholesome and without dissention to those who believe.



They promise a whole lot more than that.


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