# Boykin Spaniel Pup



## DUCKAHOLIC86 (Feb 8, 2012)

I just got a boykin and he is almost 8 weeks old now. I really want to educate myself on how to train him properly. I just am kind of confused as to where to begin, for one thing I have never had a boykin. Mostly I have had labs and golden retrievers in the past. He alreadys seems to be very smart and attentive to his surroundings. I just don't want to make mistakes with him early on. So I need some help if anyone has any to offer.

Any help would be appreciated; literature, any tips, advice, ways in the right direction, books to get, anthing....

Thanks!
John


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## waddler (Feb 8, 2012)

Wait until he grows up and treat him like any other dog. Biggest  mistake you can  is not allowing him to grow up as a puppy.


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## ryano (Feb 8, 2012)

waddler said:


> Wait until he grows up and treat him like any other dog. Biggest  mistake you can  is not allowing him to grow up as a puppy.



Hmmmm, yet the most famous retriever trainers in the world will tell you its imperative to start the training process at 8 weeks old or so? 

Thats why there are programs like Evan Graham's Smartworks Puppy and Jackie Merten's "Sound Beginnings"?


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## waddler (Feb 8, 2012)

ryano said:


> Hmmmm, yet the most famous retriever trainers in the world will tell you its imperative to start the training process at 8 weeks old or so?
> 
> Thats why there are programs like Evan Graham's Smartworks Puppy and Jackie Merten's "Sound Beginnings"?



Makes 'em a lot of money. 

Teach 'em to mind. Play with 'em. Nothing worse than seeing a dog ruined from being pushed too hard too early. There are plenty of excuses when those programs do not give the desired results.


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## ryano (Feb 8, 2012)

waddler said:


> . Nothing worse than seeing a dog ruined from being pushed too hard too early. .



Oh Im sure both programs are money makers but neither program teaches to push too hard to early though that I have seen yet.  

They both teach to keep it short and fun while at the young ages.

I have a 10 week old Lab pup myself and I am interested in learning as much as I can about training her to be a gun dog but I also want to let her be a puppy too! .


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## king killer delete (Feb 8, 2012)

*Waddler.*



waddler said:


> Makes 'em a lot of money.
> 
> Teach 'em to mind. Play with 'em. Nothing worse than seeing a dog ruined from being pushed too hard too early. There are plenty of excuses when those programs do not give the desired results.


 I dont know about Graham but I have seen Jackie Mertens run the famous TopBrass Cotton on a 300 yard blind in a beaver pond on Fort Gordon Many years ago and She  had to give the dog one cast to pickup a blind in Fld Trial. Now I do agree with you on letting the pup grow up . But Jackie Mertens knows her stuff.


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## waddler (Feb 8, 2012)

killer elite said:


> I dont know about Graham but I have seen Jackie Mertens run the famous TopBrass Cotton on a 300 yard blind in a beaver pond on Fort Gordon Many years ago and She  had to give the dog one cast to pickup a blind in Fld Trial. Now I do agree with you on letting the pup grow up . But Jackie Mertens knows her stuff.



If I had that much faith in a trainer, I would raise the pup, teach it obedience and then send the dog to her to train.

Not questioning the Trainer, but you must decide what you want in a dog first. Trainers' number one job problem is curing owner inflicted faults. Pups' minds mature at different rates, one pup can be ok with a training measure while another the same age develops problems from it. Hard to be a dog reader unless you do it for a living. People I know, that have and do make a living from training and hunting dogs,  tell me they had rather have a dog over a year old that has NEVER been trained other than obedience.


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## bkl021475 (Feb 8, 2012)

waddler said:


> If I had that much faith in a trainer, I would raise the pup, teach it obedience and then send the dog to her to train.
> 
> Not questioning the Trainer, but you must decide what you want in a dog first. Trainers' number one job problem is curing owner inflicted faults. Pups' minds mature at different rates, one pup can be ok with a training measure while another the same age develops problems from it. Hard to be a dog reader unless you do it for a living. People I know, that have and do make a living from training and hunting dogs,  tell me they had rather have a dog over a year old that has NEVER been trained other than obedience.



Never heard that before, training starts at 6 weeks for me, nothing to hard, just learning the ropes, by the time mine is a year it's ready to go to a swamp, actually well before a year.


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## ngaduck (Feb 8, 2012)

waddler said:


> Trainers' number one job problem is curing owner inflicted faults.....................People I know, that have and do make a living from training and hunting dogs,  tell me they had rather have a dog over a year old that has NEVER been trained other than obedience.



Maybe that is their problem, not taking a dog until it is over a year old. All the pro trainers that I know want them no later than 6 months and would take them earlier if they had their adult teeth.


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## king killer delete (Feb 8, 2012)

*I do not dis agree with you at all.*



waddler said:


> If I had that much faith in a trainer, I would raise the pup, teach it obedience and then send the dog to her to train.
> 
> Not questioning the Trainer, but you must decide what you want in a dog first. Trainers' number one job problem is curing owner inflicted faults. Pups' minds mature at different rates, one pup can be ok with a training measure while another the same age develops problems from it. Hard to be a dog reader unless you do it for a living. People I know, that have and do make a living from training and hunting dogs,  tell me they had rather have a dog over a year old that has NEVER been trained other than obedience.


  I owned a dog that was 2 points away from his Field Champion Title Before he died. My kennel produced the first AKC Master hunter that came out of the Augusta area. I knew Dick Wolters as a friend and I was  with  the 1985 National Retreiver Championship. In 1986 I was awarded the 1986 Sportsmanship award from the Palmeto Retriever club which at that time was the retreiver club of South Carolina. I do not disagree with you but I know a little bit about dogs to.


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## sasmojoe (Feb 8, 2012)

*boykin*

If you plan on running the dog in field trials then go with Evan Graham. If you want just a hunting dog I would recommend Chris Akins DVD .


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## king killer delete (Feb 8, 2012)

*49 days for me.*



bkl021475 said:


> never heard that before, training starts at 6 weeks for me, nothing to hard, just learning the ropes, by the time mine is a year it's ready to go to a swamp, actually well before a year.


x2x2


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## king killer delete (Feb 8, 2012)

I have ruined a few pointing dogs because i did not know how to train one. bird dogs are different than retreiving dogs. Most bird dogs could not take a hard stress retreiver training program. Boykins can I have seen them trained just like a lab.


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## bigdawg (Feb 8, 2012)

I have a little brown dog and she was twice as easy to train than my goldens. Good luck and just have fun..take the pup every chance you have to walk in the woods.

I like the book from marshes to meadows by Spencer.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Feb 8, 2012)

DUCKAHOLIC86 said:


> I just got a boykin and he is almost 8 weeks old now. I really want to educate myself on how to train him properly. I just am kind of confused as to where to begin, for one thing I have never had a boykin. Mostly I have had labs and golden retrievers in the past. He alreadys seems to be very smart and attentive to his surroundings. I just don't want to make mistakes with him early on. So I need some help if anyone has any to offer.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated; literature, any tips, advice, ways in the right direction, books to get, anthing....
> 
> ...



Both Boykins I've had (including the current one) were late starters. They are full on energy and have very short attention spans when young, but are very eager learners. Start with the basic obedience commands and slowly work into retrieving. They are the most awesome, loyal dogs you will own. Give him lots of praise and make sure you don't strong arm them like you can with a lab. Boykins tend to be a bit more sensitive and will flat out shut down if you are too harsh with them.


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## waddler (Feb 8, 2012)

killer elite said:


> I owned a dog that was 2 points away from his Field Champion Title Before he died. My kennel produced the first AKC Master hunter that came out of the Augusta area. I knew Dick Wolters as a friend and I was  with  the 1985 National Retreiver Championship. In 1986 I was awarded the 1986 Sportsmanship award from the Palmeto Retriever club which at that time was the retreiver club of South Carolina. I do not disagree with you but I know a little bit about dogs to.



Not putting you down at all. My only point is that a dog too immature to take training responds negatively, and develops bad habits.  It is difficult to ascertain the level of maturity. Sometimes even for the most experienced trainers. Better to let the dog mature to be sure.

Retrievers need to be puppies too.


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## 12mcrebel (Feb 8, 2012)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Both Boykins I've had (including the current one) were late starters. They are full on energy and have very short attention spans when young, but are very eager learners. Start with the basic obedience commands and slowly work into retrieving. They are the most awesome, loyal dogs you will own. Give him lots of praise and make sure you don't strong arm them like you can with a lab. Boykins tend to be a bit more sensitive and will flat out shut down if you are too harsh with them.[/QUOTE]
> 
> not necessarily true.. my lab is ALOT more soft than my boykin.
> 
> ...


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## king killer delete (Feb 8, 2012)

*No offence taken*



waddler said:


> Not putting you down at all. My only point is that a dog too immature to take training responds negatively, and develops bad habits.  It is difficult to ascertain the level of maturity. Sometimes even for the most experienced trainers. Better to let the dog mature to be sure.
> 
> Retrievers need to be puppies too.


 You are correct. But training can start as early as 49 days and I have had better luck with females than males. Now I am talking about me and I am not talking bad about males. I have had better luck  with female dogs. Last weekend I worke with a buddy that has a young chessy that I think will be a great shooting dog. He was cocerned about her being shy and timid. I did not see any of that in this dog.  think if he works with her and lets her mature a bit more he willl have a fine hunting partner.


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## waddler (Feb 8, 2012)

I sometimes think the owner needs to go to the trainer more than the dog. It is wonderful to have a pup, the house comes alive with them. I really believe a Pup Psychiatry Practice for Owners would be a viable proposition. 

When you have four dogs same age to train, the differences are easier to see. However, when   the apple of your eye is an only pup, it is only natural to want them to excel, and the sooner the better. I have had Brits Commercially hunting at 9 months and they were very good, still are. Other pups from the same litter would have been a disaster at that age, but made fine birddogs later. It takes luck or experience to know how far to go with a pup successfully. 

Also the surroundings the dog is raised in impacts. My brother has the luxury of 4000 acres of wild quail land to train on. His training is pathetically simple. As soon as the pup can get around, his play time is in the quail woods beside the very "mule" he will hunt near the rest of his life. He rides to the woods in the same box he will have for his life. He gets to chase after quail, red birds, rabbits, squirrels, then find and chase some more until he has his fill and one day he points. Discipline is not even thought about. A puppy with this life is way ahead of my dogs that had to learn on $4 release quail.

Good socializing, some obedience training and a few trips to the whoa post and voila, a birddog as good as the tools God blessed him with.


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## cutem'all1090 (Feb 8, 2012)

The best advice I can give you from what I've learned from my Boykin and most any other young dog is keep it short and sweet and keep them wanting more. They are very smart dogs and mine tends to pick up on alot of things fairly quick. Most important have fun you're gonna love that little brown dog!


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## cutem'all1090 (Feb 8, 2012)

Oh yea who did you get it from If you don't mind me asking


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## Turkey Trax (Feb 8, 2012)

sasmojoe said:


> If you plan on running the dog in field trials then go with Evan Graham. If you want just a hunting dog I would recommend Chris Akins DVD .



I would recommend Graham either way. Akins program doesn't get you very far. Good for what it does but only gets of to simple marking and steadying.


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## MudDucker (Feb 9, 2012)

killer elite said:


> I have ruined a few pointing dogs because i did not know how to train one. bird dogs are different than retreiving dogs. Most bird dogs could not take a hard stress retreiver training program. Boykins can I have seen them trained just like a lab.



Most Boykin trainers would disagree.  Boykins do NOT like hard training.  Boykins are one of the smartest dogs you will ever get.  They bond with their master and they have great drive to please.  Most Boykins I have seen ruined, were ruined by trainers treating them like labs.


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## Turkey Trax (Feb 9, 2012)

MudDucker said:


> Most Boykin trainers would disagree.  Boykins do NOT like hard training.  Boykins are one of the smartest dogs you will ever get.  They bond with their master and they have great drive to please.  Most Boykins I have seen ruined, were ruined by trainers treating them like labs.



maybe most you've been around, but ill disagree with you on this one. i am training #3 right now. train with a big group of guys that would all say the same thing. we use smartworks as it was developed and do the same with our dogs as the lab guys do. not saying you're wrong but i have personal experience that says otherwise. i force fetch them the same, collar condition them the same, and do all the same as the lab guys we train with. mine are all tough, hard nosed, hard running dogs.


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## fatboy84 (Feb 9, 2012)

Turkey Trax said:


> maybe most you've been around, but ill disagree with you on this one. i am training #3 right now. train with a big group of guys that would all say the same thing. we use smartworks as it was developed and do the same with our dogs as the lab guys do. not saying you're wrong but i have personal experience that says otherwise. i force fetch them the same, collar condition them the same, and do all the same as the lab guys we train with. *mine are all tough, hard nosed, hard running dogs*.



I will attest to that.  He has some jam up LBD's.


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## DUCKAHOLIC86 (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks for all the input, whether on topic or not, good reading. To the guys refering to "smartworks", could you maybe expand on that or tell me somewhere to get this? Website? Stores? 

Also Evan Graham, where would I get this training program from?


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## bkl021475 (Feb 9, 2012)

DUCKAHOLIC86 said:


> Thanks for all the input, whether on topic or not, good reading. To the guys refering to "smartworks", could you maybe expand on that or tell me somewhere to get this? Website? Stores?
> 
> Also Evan Graham, where would I get this training program from?



http://www.gundogsupply.com/click-f...t&engine=GAW&gclid=CJOqkL2kj64CFQkQNAodLC4hfw


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## Turkey Trax (Feb 9, 2012)

DUCKAHOLIC86 said:


> Thanks for all the input, whether on topic or not, good reading. To the guys refering to "smartworks", could you maybe expand on that or tell me somewhere to get this? Website? Stores?
> 
> Also Evan Graham, where would I get this training program from?



evan graham is smartworks. 

rushcreekpress.com is his website


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## sasmojoe (Feb 9, 2012)

*smartworks*

I've got one I will sell you


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## king killer delete (Feb 10, 2012)

*Some can take it.*



MudDucker said:


> Most Boykin trainers would disagree.  Boykins do NOT like hard training.  Boykins are one of the smartest dogs you will ever get.  They bond with their master and they have great drive to please.  Most Boykins I have seen ruined, were ruined by trainers treating them like labs.


 But as  a group you would be right. None the less it must be said that all dogs of the same breed are not going to be the same. There are allot of labs that would have been great dogs if there trainers had been more understanding about soft dogs and hard dogs. Some labs can be softer than some Boykins. I feel that  Boykins as a whole are a great breed. I also have the same feelings for the labs , goldens , chessys and the flat coats. Bottom line some dogs are going to be great and some are not.


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## Esylivin (Feb 11, 2012)

I’ve trained Chief from 7 weeks of age all as an amateur.   The word is that the Boykin is smart, soft and hard headed, not really.  They are smart but hate repetition.  Keep all sessions short.  My #1 rule is to stop the training session while they are still wanting more.  Do 4-10 minute sessions in a day rather than one 40 minute session.  They are not soft and can take the pressure, however it takes them longer to recover.  If I have a high pressure day I usually dumb down the next two days and build confidence.  They actually pick up on the concept faster than most other retrievers and thus the confidence days don't usually extend the training time.  Now too much pressure over time and too much repetition and they will shut down.  You have to learn how to read them, same said for any dog.   Here in the heart of Boykin country trainers are now beginning to understand the subtle differences in training a Boykin, but in general they train like any other retriever.  3 years ago we had only 16 HRCH Titled Boykins, now there are 47.  We now have 2 Grand Hunting Retriever Champion Boykins.  The little dogs can do the work and are eager to please, very trainable.  I used Smartworks for the most part.  Training Chief has been one of the most rewarding experiences I've ever had.  It has been one hellofa ride.  Wish everyone's experience could be this rewarding.  Hope this helps.


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## king killer delete (Feb 13, 2012)

*This is the best advice from someone has taken his dog to the top*



Esylivin said:


> I’ve trained Chief from 7 weeks of age all as an amateur.   The word is that the Boykin is smart, soft and hard headed, not really.  They are smart but hate repetition.  Keep all sessions short.  My #1 rule is to stop the training session while they are still wanting more.  Do 4-10 minute sessions in a day rather than one 40 minute session.  They are not soft and can take the pressure, however it takes them longer to recover.  If I have a high pressure day I usually dumb down the next two days and build confidence.  They actually pick up on the concept faster than most other retrievers and thus the confidence days don't usually extend the training time.  Now too much pressure over time and too much repetition and they will shut down.  You have to learn how to read them, same said for any dog.   Here in the heart of Boykin country trainers are now beginning to understand the subtle differences in training a Boykin, but in general they train like any other retriever.  3 years ago we had only 16 HRCH Titled Boykins, now there are 47.  We now have 2 Grand Hunting Retriever Champion Boykins.  The little dogs can do the work and are eager to please, very trainable.  I used Smartworks for the most part.  Training Chief has been one of the most rewarding experiences I've ever had.  It has been one hellofa ride.  Wish everyone's experience could be this rewarding.  Hope this helps.


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