# What if Lee had listened to Longstreet at Gettysburg??



## Milkman (Aug 6, 2011)

Toward the end of the first days fighting on July 1, 1863, General Longstreet advised General Lee to divert the Confederate forces away from Gettysburg.  He suggested moving around the left of the Federal line toward Maryland  on ground of their own choosing. This would have forced Meade to attack Lee making it a defensive fight for the Confederates.

What if Lee had listened to Longstreet and taken the fight further south on better ground? 

 Would Lee have achieved a victory?  

Would he have been in position to march on Washington then?

What are your thoughts?


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## Lindseys Grandpa (Aug 6, 2011)

I don't know that it would have changed who won the war, but from what i read i think it would have changed the winner of the battle and possibly the war.


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## hawgrider1200 (Aug 6, 2011)

hard to say, but fact remains, Lee should not have fought a that place and time. A position of strength may have turned the tide of that battle and that batle was according to all the historians he turning poin of the whole war. Lee should have listened to Longstreet more in the remainder of the war anyhow.


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## JustUs4All (Aug 6, 2011)

If Gettysburg had not been fought and instead Lee had won another battle on a different piece of ground it would only have meant that there would have been a different "Confederate high tide" and another turning point sometime later in the War.  That War was not one that the Confederacy could have won bravery and chivalry were not enough.


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## Resica (Aug 6, 2011)

Milkman said:


> Toward the end of the first days fighting on July 1, 1863, General Longstreet advised General Lee to divert the Confederate forces away from Gettysburg.  He suggested moving around the left of the Federal line toward Maryland  on ground of their own choosing. This would have forced Meade to attack Lee making it a defensive fight for the Confederates.
> 
> What if Lee had listened to Longstreet and taken the fight further south on better ground?
> 
> ...


  Maybe Meade would have been able to get  to the Pipe Creek Line back in Maryland and made Lee attack him there. Could have been a worse outcome than the Confederates received at Gettysburg. Hard to beleive Lee could have positioned himself south of the  Union line en masse without Union knowledge, especially since they were strung out on such a large front. They would risk having their units attacked  individually, not that Lee was normally opposed to that sort of risk.




hawgrider1200 said:


> hard to say, but fact remains, Lee should not have fought a that place and time. A position of strength may have turned the tide of that battle and that batle was according to all the historians he turning poin of the whole war. Lee should have listened to Longstreet more in the remainder of the war anyhow.



With the benefit of hindsight, it could be said Gettysburg was the turning point, but at the time it wasn't.  I'm sure the Rebels didn't say, well that's it, it's all downhill from here.  The Confederates hadn't been defeated too many times prior to Gettysburg and I'm sure they saw no reason why they couldn't be successful in battle after Gettysburg. Lick your wounds and move on. They fought for nearly 2 more years. With the benefit of hindsight, the Picket -Pettigrew- Trimble Charge probably seems like like a futile and wasteful adventure but I imagine if Lee thought it would turn out like it did he wouldn't have ordered it. Hinsight is a wonderful thing. That battle had many instances, probably many we've never heard of, where the tide could have changed, the outcome  being totally different than it was. The same can be said of many battles. What if?


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## Milkman (Aug 6, 2011)

Great responses !!!!

If Lee had been able to position himself between Meade and DC  I bet the troops in the trenches around DC would have been released and moved north to possibly trap the Confederates. Remember they had no supply line whatsoever. The Federals had potential for supply from any direction. 

Hard for a southern boy to admit, but IMO no Southern army could last long above the Mason-Dixon line unless they achieved massive victories and were able to supply themselves somehow.


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## Resica (Aug 6, 2011)

I've heard they had designs on heading to Philadelphia before Gettysburg happened. Had they been able to cross the Susquehanna they could have easily marched on Philadelphia without any major obstacles as far as terrain. They could have marched right down the Lincoln Highway.  How in the world could they have left there in one piece? They'd have been trapped.


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## striper slug (Aug 6, 2011)

*possibilities*

what i want to suggest ,, why cant i build a time machine and send back a truckload of aks and ammo for my southern brethren


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## Milkman (Aug 7, 2011)

striper slug said:


> what i want to suggest ,, why cant i build a time machine and send back a truckload of aks and ammo for my southern brethren



Better than that just send back some portable radios. That would make the difference.


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## Milkman (Aug 7, 2011)

Resica said:


> I've heard they had designs on heading to Philadelphia before Gettysburg happened. Had they been able to cross the Susquehanna they could have easily marched on Philadelphia without any major obstacles as far as terrain. They could have marched right down the Lincoln Highway.  How in the world could they have left there in one piece? They'd have been trapped.



I have read the first goal for Lee was likely Harrisburg. If successful in taking it I suppose Philadelphia, Baltimore, or DC would have been logical choices.  Either way the Confederates supplies would have been limited to what they could gather from the land or capture from the Federals. I agree they would likely have been trapped at either city.


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## southron (Aug 7, 2011)

we were sustaining as long as we stayed on southern soil. we should never have changed from defensive to offensive. foreign support would have been greater. home court advantage in Dixie.


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## Resica (Aug 7, 2011)

Milkman said:


> Better than that just send back some portable radios. That would make the difference.



A tank or 2 and a couple of attack helicopters would have turned the tide!!


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## Knotwild (Aug 7, 2011)

I have been reading a book by a man who commanded one of Nathan B. Forrest's artillery batteries. So, I wonder how it would have ended if NBF had General Lee's command. He deceived, pushed hard and relentlessly, and captured a lot of what he needed from the north. I think it was Sherman who referred to him as "that devil Forrest".


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## Unclesteve52 (Aug 8, 2011)

Just for fun . . . there is an alternative history/sci-fi book by Harry Turtledove in which AK's really are sent back by a time machine to the Confederacy!  Don't remember the precise title, I think it was "The Guns of the South."


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## Resica (Aug 8, 2011)

Knotwild said:


> I have been reading a book by a man who commanded one of Nathan B. Forrest's artillery batteries. So, I wonder how it would have ended if NBF had General Lee's command. He deceived, pushed hard and relentlessly, and captured a lot of what he needed from the north. I think it was Sherman who referred to him as "that devil Forrest".



If Forrest had command of Lee's Army the Confederacy would have died long before it did, in my opinion.


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## rhbama3 (Aug 8, 2011)

Milkman said:


> Toward the end of the first days fighting on July 1, 1863, General Longstreet advised General Lee to divert the Confederate forces away from Gettysburg.  He suggested moving around the left of the Federal line toward Maryland  on ground of their own choosing. This would have forced Meade to attack Lee making it a defensive fight for the Confederates.
> 
> What if Lee had listened to Longstreet and taken the fight further south on better ground?
> 
> ...



Lee wasn't aware initially of just how many federal troops he was facing. Jeb Stuart was roaming the countryside raiding train depots, etc.. and this left Lee with little info other than what skirmishers were reporting. Lee made several mistakes, the major one being not taking the high ground when he had the chance and the Union troops were still out of position.
A march south to avoid the battle that was forming would have left Lee with a strong Union force behind him and probably another Union army marching out of Washington to cut him off. There were enough Feds in Baltimore to move to Washington fairly quickly to defend it.
 I don't think the loss of Stonewall Jackson two months before Gettysburg can be ignored. Lee and Jackson were a formidible pair of strategists combined, but without Jackson, I feel Lee was never the same again.


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## tas6691 (Aug 9, 2011)

rhbama3 makes some good points. Had Jackson and Stuart been there, and Longstreet not have been pouting and delayed his troup movements, the outcome likely would have been different.

However, IMO, the souths downfall was Grant being given command of the Army of the Potomac. He refused to let Lee dictate the pace and forcing Lee to come out and fight to protect Richmond. Had the north not found an aggressive leader, Lee could have played hit and run for several more years, eventually forcing the north to negotiate peace.


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## Milkman (Aug 10, 2011)

Was all the fiasco and mis-managment related to the Confederate right flank (Hood/McLaws) on July 2nd the result of Longstreet being PO'd at RE Lee?

Was it Longstreet trying to carry out Lees orders to the tee?


Was it just circumstance and Murphys law?

Was it a combination of these ??


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## bullethead (Jan 16, 2012)

Lee was set up to fail at Gettysburg, without his "eyes" Stuart he had no idea of how many Union troops were in front of him. Longstreet's plan to go towards D.C. in theory is smart, but the Susquehanna River would have prevented them from being able to cross in a timely fashion, and even possibly Lee would have been stuck with his back to the river while pontoon bridges were being built. Lee would have to go south and march towards D.C. Lee almost achieved victory at Gettysburg on July 2, but bad positioning of men and a lack of mass concentration of troops attacking Little Round Top it failed. Longstreet proposed to attack the same way on July 3 but shifting the army towards the Union flank at L.R.T. Using Pickett's and his own men, to go to the far left of the Union flank. With a mass concentration of troops, this tactical decision would have the most chance of being successful. Lee for as smart of a commander, was to arrogant and thought he could pull off the impossible and ordered a frontal assault, but didn't have capable commanders, i.e. Jackson.

Gettysburg although crushing to the Confederate moral is not the turning point of the Civil War, losing Vicksburg cost the Confederates the war. This is also Lee's fault....

Bullethead Jr.


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## RBM (Jan 16, 2012)

rhbama3 said:
			
		

> Lee wasn't aware initially of just how many federal troops he was facing. Jeb Stuart was roaming the countryside raiding train depots, etc.. and this left Lee with little info other than what skirmishers were reporting.





			
				bullethead said:
			
		

> Lee was set up to fail at Gettysburg, without his "eyes" Stuart he had no idea of how many Union troops were in front of him.



There it is. Stuart was AWOL as the military intelligence arm of Lee.


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## Milkman (Jan 16, 2012)

RBM said:


> There it is. Stuart was AWOL as the military intelligence arm of Lee.



Most of y'all know I am a diehard rebel, member of the SCV, direct descendant of several Confederate veterans, but here goes.


I know Stuart was tardy, but Lee had to know his invasion so far north that threatened several large northern cities as well as DC would deserve all the Union could send to oppose him.  
 Not defending Stuart's insubordination but I just don't buy Lee not knowing the exact number and exact location of the enemy as a reason for repeatedly not listening to the learned counsel of his staff. (Longstreet)


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## bullethead (Jan 16, 2012)

> I know Stuart was tardy, but Lee had to know his invasion so far north that threatened several large northern cities as well as DC would deserve all the Union could send to oppose him.
> Not defending Stuart's insubordination but I just don't buy Lee not knowing the exact number and exact location of the enemy as a reason for repeatedly not listening to the learned counsel of his staff. (Longstreet) [quote/]
> 
> The cavalry's purpose is to scout enemy position, and give an estimation of troops. Without exact numbers and position, and Heth's belief that they could overrun the Union troops at Gettysburg forced Lee's hand to fight at Gettysburg.


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## RBM (Jan 16, 2012)

Milkman said:
			
		

> Not defending Stuart's insubordination but I just don't buy Lee not knowing the exact number and exact location of the enemy as a reason for repeatedly not listening to the learned counsel of his staff. (Longstreet)



Lee was human like the rest of us who make mistakes. Maybe Lee got complacent by his victories but that does not sound like the Lee we all know. That was not the last time Lee refused counsel of his staff. He refused to make the Smoky Mountains a redoubt for the ANV rather than surrender. Maybe there would have been an SRA or CRA as opposed to just an IRA.



			
				Milkman said:
			
		

> Would he have been in position to march on Washington then?



That was not the goal of the war. Had it been the goal of the war then Washington could have been taken at the First Manassas. The goal was independence (since States Rights were not forthcoming), not defeating the Union. Therefore a decisive victory against the Federal Army on the battlefield or a resounding defeat of the Federal Army. That victory would result in the legitimate recognition of the Confederacy by European and world powers.


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## Slingblade (Jan 24, 2012)

Unclesteve52 said:


> Just for fun . . . there is an alternative history/sci-fi book by Harry Turtledove in which AK's really are sent back by a time machine to the Confederacy!  Don't remember the precise title, I think it was "The Guns of the South."



You are correct, that was the title.


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## MCBUCK (Feb 21, 2012)

Just my worthless .02....and another "what if?"......What if Lee had followed up heartily and hastily  on the victory at Fredricksburg?  Would the Pennsylvania campaign even been needed?   Just some historic bubblegum for the brain.


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## Milkman (Feb 21, 2012)

MCBUCK said:


> Just my worthless .02....and another "what if?"......What if Lee had followed up heartily and hastily  on the victory at Fredricksburg?  Would the Pennsylvania campaign even been needed?   Just some historic bubblegum for the brain.



McBuck,

Not at all a worthless theory.  It may have been possible for Lee's Army to defeat Burnsides Army at Fredricksburg. But even if he had, then the decision would  have to be whether to march on Washington and get recognition from the powers that the Confederacy was legitimate  and could exist.  
Im not sure if Lincoln and the lawmakers would have done that.  It might have required the Confederate government taking over the US govt for that to  happen............  but here we are getting on yet another topic.

Thanks for jumping in and bumping this thread back to life.


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## MCBUCK (Feb 24, 2012)

Not a history scholar by a long shot, but I do know just enough to be interesting at a hunt camp or get into trouble. Interested,  studied enough through school, toured some battle fields, read a book or two, but not in the same league as a lot of you folks are. Living around Dalton all my life, I live in area pretty rich in the history of "the cause." Bragg & Rosecrans, Joe Johnston, Wheelers Calvary raids at Snake Creek Gap, Longstreets Charge, etc.....Dalton was the winter area for the Army of Tennesse 64-65...it is what I grew up with....you can almost still hear the fire of grapeshot and smell the smoke (cliche-I know)  
On a side note: I often wondered why Lee did not attempt to draw Mosby into the fold a little closer...might have been a great ally there in Virginia-if he could have been controlled.


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## Jeff Phillips (Feb 24, 2012)

Without the victory at Gettysburg Lincoln loses the election. The voters up North were tired of the war and primed to bring their "Peace Candidate" George B. McClellan into office to stop the war. Gettysburg restored the North's faith that they could win and re-elected Linclon.

Lee should have listened to Longstreet and Longstreet should have followed orders to get in the fight earlier.


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## gobblin thunder 57 (Mar 11, 2012)

Bringing this one back to the top with a question and another what if for the Battle of Gettsyburg.

Does anyone know whay JEB was late? I heard that Lee had him go around the long way to find out what they were up against and bring his forces back outside of town and report back to Lee however he encountered heavy Union forces and had to go even further around to get back. He did, on the way raid supplies which did slow him down but even if he had gone straight there he would have been late. Just what I heard and read about.

Now for the what if. What if Lee had given Ewell specific orders to take Cemetery and Culp's hills instead of the vague orders that he did? They had already run the Union forces, almost unopposed, out of town to those hills. He chose to wait until morning for reinforcements from Lee and by that time Union reinforcements had arrived and they had time to build fortifications on the high ground. What if he had gone ahead and taken the hills that afternoon? The Confederates could have held the geographical high ground that the Union held. Could it have changed the overall outcome of the battle? The south was so close to some major victories all throught the war. Just minor things like this cost them the battles. Lots of what if's for the war. I love studying this stuff especially southern generals. Most were great leaders and tactical genuises.


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## rhbama3 (Mar 12, 2012)

gobblin thunder 57 said:


> Bringing this one back to the top with a question and another what if for the Battle of Gettsyburg.
> 
> Does anyone know whay JEB was late? I heard that Lee had him go around the long way to find out what they were up against and bring his forces back outside of town and report back to Lee however he encountered heavy Union forces and had to go even further around to get back. He did, on the way raid supplies which did slow him down but even if he had gone straight there he would have been late. Just what I heard and read about.
> 
> Now for the what if. What if Lee had given Ewell specific orders to take Cemetery and Culp's hills instead of the vague orders that he did? They had already run the Union forces, almost unopposed, out of town to those hills. He chose to wait until morning for reinforcements from Lee and by that time Union reinforcements had arrived and they had time to build fortifications on the high ground. What if he had gone ahead and taken the hills that afternoon? The Confederates could have held the geographical high ground that the Union held. Could it have changed the overall outcome of the battle? The south was so close to some major victories all throught the war. Just minor things like this cost them the battles. Lots of what if's for the war. I love studying this stuff especially southern generals. Most were great leaders and tactical genuises.



Strictly going off my sometimes bad memory(i donated all my civil War books years ago), i seem to remember that Stuart had requested orders from Lee after the main portion of the Rebel army had crossed the Potomac. I don't remember how Longstreet became involved, but he suggested Stuart  go one way( which could have exposed the presence of the AONV), and Lee sent vague orders for him to go another collecting information and all the supplies he could. 
Instead of those options, Stuart came up with his own plan instead of getting clarification or explaining  his intent. Again, i don't remember specifics.
 As to your 2nd question, having the high ground is always advantageous both for artillery and seeing enemy movements. It is possible that Meade would have retreated if he faced that situation( he wasn't much of a risk taker) but i'll leave it to the rest of you to give better answers). 
On a different note, I've always felt that Pickett's Charge was the most bizarre order Lee ever gave. The man knew tactics, and knew what he was facing. I have never read anything that i can recall where he explained what his rationale was. He did apologize and accept blame for it, but not why he did it wit such overwhelming odds against him.


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## gobblin thunder 57 (Mar 12, 2012)

rhbama3 said:


> On a different note, I've always felt that Pickett's Charge was the most bizarre order Lee ever gave. The man knew tactics, and knew what he was facing. I have never read anything that i can recall where he explained what his rationale was. He did apologize and accept blame for it, but not why he did it wit such overwhelming odds against him.



I agree that was a crazy decision and resulted in thousands of unnecessary loses for the Confederates. I watched the history channel show "Gettysberg". It broke down every aspect of the battle and what could have been. It was very interesting. They said that after the hours of artilleries firing back and forth at each other the Union ordered a cease fire and waited. Lee thought that they had disabled all the artillery and ordered the charge. I still think going across and open field for 1,700 yrds. into a situation where you didn't know whether the artillery was active or disabled was a stupid move. They were just targets for the new parrot cannons concentrated in formations like they were. I've been to Gettysberg in middle school and didn't get to see everything but we did see the field where the charge occured. The Confederates were under heavy fire for a long time. I really want to go back and see everything.


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## bullethead (Oct 18, 2012)

And, Little Round Top was initially manned by about a dozen Union men from the signal corps. If the Confederates arrive 10minutes earlier they literally walk up the hill and take it, probably without firing a shot. In that short span of ten minutes the main Union force moves in and secures the high ground. It was one of many small pieces of the puzzle that when added up could have made all the difference during the battle.


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