# Purpose of the church vs purpose of government?



## gordon 2 (Jun 19, 2017)

Can someone explain what is/are for most Christians the traditional rock bottom sources of what the church should do and what government should do? Is it fixed? If it can change why? Do the two intersect or influence each other as to mission or works? How?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 19, 2017)

Church

*Matthew 25:45*
"He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

In so much as this one scripture is concerned as a congregation, corporate body, or individual, our duty as Christians should be to all that are not able bodied to do for themselves, starting with those in our Nation first. 

Government

*The Declaration of Independence*
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that *all men are created equal*, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,

In so much as the DoI is concerned, the word pursuit refers to ALL able bodied Americans and in no way implies that the government would or should take care of them.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 19, 2017)

Gordon, 
I think you have ask a very broad question.
Am I off topic if I ask—Is a theocracy scriptural?
I don't think I have ever considered the question.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 19, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Church
> 
> *Matthew 25:45*
> "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."
> ...




Very good points. Now I understand it better. So both both the constitution and Christianity provide for you motivation and  your outlook as to who to care for. And this is that all individuals, groups, etc that are disabled bodied deserve care. 

How do you determine that a group is able or disabled? For example are  groups who have been put out of work for changing economic circumstances disabled, even though as individuals they might be very physically able?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 19, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> Very good points. Now I understand it better. So both both the constitution and Christianity provide for you motivate and your your outlook as to who to care for. And this is all individuals, groups, etc that are disabled bodied deserve care.
> 
> How do you determine that a group is able or disabled?



I suppose that is a tad bit more difficult from a government perspective (by past litmus tests) and also given that psychological disabilities must be considered as well as physical disabilities. Recently however, Georgia and Alabama as well as many other states have passed laws stating that IF you are able bodied and can work you will no longer be eligible for EBT and other assistance. 

The bible however, makes no such qualifications, and the point remains that if the church, at all levels, were doing it's job the Government wouldn't have a target to acquire.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 19, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> Gordon,
> I think you have ask a very broad question.
> Am I off topic if I ask—Is a theocracy scriptural?
> I don't think I have ever considered the question.



No I don't think a theocracy is scriptural. My understanding of Jewish society at the time of Herod is that it was a theocracy and it was largely an element of their undoing.

On the other hand, the roman republic ( its politics driven by its constitutions) was itself the undoing of their republics including their spirituality within.

 I realize it might be a broad question(s)...


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## gordon 2 (Jun 19, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I suppose that is a tad bit more difficult from a government perspective (by past litmus tests) and also given that psychological disabilities must be considered as well as physical disabilities. Recently however, Georgia and Alabama as well as many other states have passed laws stating that IF you are able bodied and can work you will no longer be eligible for EBT and other assistance.
> 
> The bible however, makes no such qualifications, and the point remains that if the church, at all levels, were doing it's job the Government wouldn't have a target to acquire.



Interesting. So the church should advocate for justice for First Nations if they are unable to themselves if the church believe they have a just case? Maybe? And if the church advocates for reparations against the government? Would it be ok for some in government to equally advocate for  the First Nation group? Where is the line... as to who is constitutionally correct and who is spiritually correct in their advocacy?

If instead of First Nations it was factory workers put out of work due to free trade or robotics? What makes them able or disabled?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 19, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> Interesting. So the church should advocate for justice for First Nations if they are unable to themselves if the church believe they have a just case?



I didn't say that.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 19, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> No I don't think a theocracy is scriptural. My understanding of Jewish society at the time of Herod is that it was a theocracy and it was largely an element of their undoing.
> 
> On the other hand, the roman republic ( its politics driven by its constitutions) was itself the undoing of their republics including their spirituality within.
> 
> I realize it might be a broad question(s)...



I am not sure I understand this line of thinking. Israel was set up to be a theocracy from the beginning. God had prophets ruling the land. They screwed it up by demanding a King like all the nations around them. It was the ole saw about wanting to fit in with the neighborhood.  It seems to me that the form of government that God ordain was the theocracy, and if I am not mistaken, we will be ruled by a theocracy for eternity.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 19, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I didn't say that.



O. Ok. Then I misunderstood.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 19, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I am not sure I understand this line of thinking. Israel was set up to be a theocracy from the beginning. God had prophets ruling the land. They screwed it up by demanding a King like all the nations around them. It was the ole saw about wanting to fit in with the neighborhood.  It seems to me that the form of government that God ordain was the theocracy, and if I am not mistaken, we will be ruled by a theocracy for eternity.



The eternal theocracy seems certain; and I also understand an ancient theocracy; and those who believe in an current earthly Kingdom of God are under a theocracy.  Interesting.  Jesus, Paul, and Peter taught us about living with worldly civil authority, while being a citizen of God's Kingdom.

It might be that in serving the poor, widows, and the fatherless God's People should have no concern for civil authority (although not ignored as a potential resource).


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## hobbs27 (Jun 19, 2017)

Gordon ..I am almost anarchist...I have goats so I can drink raw milk, I grow a garden of my own and harvest my own meat for the freezer. I would love to live the life of the Amish...all but the electricity part. 

I have very little need of a Govt. I want them to protect our borders and preserve our individual rights in the constitution.. And that's it. 

The church on the other hand could do all the needs of welfare.

A great read on the subject : http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 19, 2017)

Wow, this is a pretty deep question. It's a big  debate or division when welfare concerns the government. Now enter the Church and it's responsibilities. For some reason I always thought scripture on helping and feeding the others was on an individual basis.

Now back in the day of Christ's time on the earth there wasn't much help in government welfare or health insurance. Really not much here in the US back in the 20's. I guess Christian individuals and together as a Church would come together as a whole to provide the help needed. Could the Church really take on this responsibility in a modern world? Could the Church really replace the federal welfare program? Medicaid? The WIC program? Healthcare? Drug rehab? I mean they do where they can. They do their part but 100%? The cost is different now than it was back then so maybe the requirements have changed.

Requirement? Fixed? Has it changed? Good question. Has the governments help released us as Christians from helping? When is helping not really helping? Should we really even ask or just do? Should we help Muslims or Hindus? They seem to help each other but not Christians.

When did we feed or clothe you Lord?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Wow, this is a pretty deep question. It's a big  debate or division when welfare concerns the government. Now enter the Church and it's responsibilities. For some reason I always thought scripture on helping and feeding the others was on an individual basis.
> 
> Now back in the day of Christ's time on the earth there wasn't much help in government welfare or health insurance. Really not much here in the US back in the 20's. I guess Christian individuals and together as a Church would come together as a whole to provide the help needed. Could the Church really take on this responsibility in a modern world? Could the Church really replace the federal welfare program? Medicaid? The WIC program? Healthcare? Drug rehab? I mean they do where they can. They do their part but 100%? The cost is different now than it was back then so maybe the requirements have changed.
> 
> ...



^^^This^^^


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 20, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> Am I off topic if I ask—Is a theocracy scriptural?



Based on the fact that the millennial kingdom is based on a theocracy I would say yes.  In reality it's the earthly ideal.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 20, 2017)

Regarding welfare from either government or church, I fully believe in helping the helpless and any in time of need.  That being said,  I don't believe in helping others who won't work or help better themselves.  The truth is we subsidize most to the point of taking away any initiative they have to do better.  Most churches don't do that.


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## j_seph (Jun 20, 2017)

Doesn't the Gov. take money out of the working Christian and Non-Christians paycheck in the form of taxes that goes to pay for welfare, etc......?

Our church, even as small as it is provides necessitates for a few families in the neighborhood that the Gov will not pay for through food stamps and such along with some food as well each month.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 20, 2017)

the first problem with the church taking care of all the helpless is the fact that tithing in the US, on average, is 2.5% of all church goers.  So, the next time you drop a tithe check into the till,( if you do that, most don't) look around the church and realize that less than 2 others out of 100 are paying tithes.

If people really got hold of the idea that EVERTHING belongs to God, and He is allowing us to use 90 percent anyway we choose, and only asks for 10 percent, they would pay the tithe with joy.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 20, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> the first problem with the church taking care of all the helpless is the fact that tithing in the US, on average, is 2.5% of all church goers.  So, the next time you drop a tithe check into the till,( if you do that, most don't) look around the church and realize that less than 2 others out of 100 are paying tithes.
> 
> If people really got hold of the idea that EVERTHING belongs to God, and He is allowing us to use 90 percent anyway we choose, and only asks for 10 percent, they would pay the tithe with joy.



The other problem, mainly with big flashy concert type churches is; Even if everyone gave 10% where is that money going?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 20, 2017)

j_seph said:


> Doesn't the Gov. take money out of the working Christian and Non-Christians paycheck in the form of taxes that goes to pay for welfare, etc......?
> 
> Our church, even as small as it is provides necessitates for a few families in the neighborhood that the Gov will not pay for through food stamps and such along with some food as well each month.



Yes.  Taxation is theft! 

And even some of those atheist down below would help their fellow man in need if we didn't have govt welfare.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 20, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes.  Taxation is theft!
> 
> And even some of those atheist down below would help their fellow man in need if we didn't have govt welfare.



I would say that is an unfair statement. I have several friends that are atheist and they are just as giving and sympathetic to human plight and misfortune, if not moreso than most Christians I know. 

Christians don't have a monopoly on helping their fellow man.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 20, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> The other problem, mainly with big flashy concert type churches is; Even if everyone gave 10% where is that money going?



whachu got aginst big flashy churches?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 20, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> whachu got aginst big flashy churches?



Nothing, I go to one.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 20, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I would say that is an unfair statement. I have several friends that are atheist and they are just as giving and sympathetic to human plight and misfortune, if not moreso *than most Christians I know. *



This Sir is the problem.  While maybe true, it's not a case of Atheist living UP to Christian expectations, but Christians living down to secular expectations.  As noted, only about 2-5 percent of self-proclaimed Christians tithe at all. (Which may be a fairly accurate reflection of what percentage of TRUE Christians there really are)  *ALL* Christians are called to tithe 10% and it should be the first thing that comes out.  Before your mortgage, before your groceries, before your taxes.  FIRST and it's not an option.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 20, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> This Sir is the problem.  While maybe true, it's not a case of Atheist living UP to Christian expectations, but Christians living down to secular expectations.



It really isn't a parallel dichotomy but more of a humanitarian symbiosis. Neither need to rise up or bow to eithers standards or expectations.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 20, 2017)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I would say that is an unfair statement. I have several friends that are atheist and they are just as giving and sympathetic to human plight and misfortune, if not moreso than most Christians I know.
> 
> Christians don't have a monopoly on helping their fellow man.




Not sure if you misunderstood me,  or I didn't clarify enough.
 To clarify.  I was just making the point that the entire burden of welfare in the absence of Govt welfare would not be placed on the church.. Non believers would also aid in private welfare.. IE.  Charity.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 20, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Not sure if you misunderstood me,  or I didn't clarify enough.
> To clarify.  I was just making the point that the entire burden of welfare in the absence of Govt welfare would not be placed on the church.. Non believers would also aid in private welfare.. IE.  Charity.



Got it. Thanks.


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