# Why does God allow Evil?



## Artfuldodger (Jun 16, 2012)

I truly believe that God did not create Evil and despises Evil.
Now i'm trying to figure out why he allows evil. 
This verse makes me think God doesn't like evil and that the Devil has something to do with it.
1 John 3:8 He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might – destroy the works of the devil.
God created everything in perfect harmony. There was no sin, no sickness, no depression and no poverty that was a result of His creation. Man was perfect and presumably, he would have lived forever in this condition had not sin come into the world through Adam’s treason.
Satan enters the garden: 
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle, [cunning (in a bad sense):--crafty], than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, has God said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 
The following article says God couldn't do anything about it because of covenants & agreements.
http://www.tgm.org/DoesGodAllowEvil.html

I Believe the devil influences our evil side and God influences our good side. Just like in the cartoons with the devil & angel on each shoulder. I believe the choice to listen to God or the devil is ours. I believe the Holy Ghost helps Christians to overcome the devil. something we have over non-Christians. Sometimes though the devil wins and we do wrong. Sometimes we do wrong without the devils help.
Excerpt from the above link;
The Father has already done all that He needs to do. 
Jesus has already done all that He needs to do. 
And the Holy Spirit is here now, doing all that He needs to do. 
So now it comes down to us!


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 16, 2012)

I Believe in the following article from The Church of Christ. 

James 1:12-18 explains that sin comes from people making the wrong choice. Sin comes from man and not from God. We all have desires that are necessary for us to live. Satan uses these natural tendencies to put us in situations where the satisfaction of our desire would cause us to break a command of God. It is a trap, but it is a snare that we willingly walk into because we want what is offered.
http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/WhyDoesGodAllowEvil.htm


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## Rich Kaminski (Jun 17, 2012)

If you believe that God always walks with you, then you will make the correct moral choices. Man might not agree, but come judgement day, you should be ok.


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## bullethead (Jun 17, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I truly believe that God did not create Evil and despises Evil.
> Now i'm trying to figure out why he allows evil.
> This verse makes me think God doesn't like evil and that the Devil has something to do with it.
> 1 John 3:8 He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might – destroy the works of the devil.
> ...



Maybe you could post this a few forums down. I am sure you would get some in depth replies. Seems like a great topic.


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## StriperAddict (Jun 17, 2012)

Adam went on his own to eat the forbidden, getting his needs met of his  own way, his own choice.  Missing the mark is all about loosing one's  dependence on the Giver of life.  So begins evil. So begins the story

Story.

Everything in the culmination of life leads to a story.

Good guys vs bad guys, like right on the big screen.  It gets us rooting for the underdog when he/they are struck down... that part of us that wants revenge/vindication wells up within us and we start rooting for him, hoping the writers of the tale on screen don't disappoint us.  We long for his victory, his honor returned, the bad guys hung from the gallows.  (Where have you gone John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Chuck Connors, etc. ???)

We have One who roots for us from above, who took on the blows and ravages of all of that darkens in the bigger story of our life. He bids us come.  Not that all evil will vaporize around us, but thru it all we will see Him work the great fabric of His love while the story goes on.  He fights for us, in us, thru us.  In Him was life and the Light of men.  Men of story.

And so some join in His "fight", taking up the cross in the battle against the forces of darkness, knowing that the true Victor wins against all evil in the end.  Sneak a peek at the end of this story if you will.  The outcome is breathtaking!


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## gemcgrew (Jun 17, 2012)

Nothing happens that God did not purpose in eternity. He does not have "oops" and "uh-oh" moments in his divine purpose and design.


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## bullethead (Jun 17, 2012)

King James Version (KJV)

Isaiah 45:7 
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 17, 2012)

The biblical principle is that we, yes we, mankind, what Adam means, were kicked out of our original purpose. We were created eternal, to live in a world where everything was provided for, protected from all sorts of evil, such as disease, famine, terroist,etc. Jesus, having been raised from the dead, is no longer under the curse "you will surely die". Speaking as the "second Adam" he says something like "glorigy me with the glory I had with you before the world began". This glory he is speaking of is the glory that Adam lost.  We are in a fallen world, biblically speaking, we are supposed to be protected. "I know the plans I have for you,...." yet we see the plagues of the egyptians Deut 28:58-60.So why, don't know. Watching closely this thread to figure out


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## Ronnie T (Jun 17, 2012)

bullethead said:


> King James Version (KJV)
> 
> Isaiah 45:7
> I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.



The New American Standard Bible provides a more accurate look of the Hebrew words used:

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Nothing happens that God did not purpose in eternity. He does not have "oops" and "uh-oh" moments in his divine purpose and design.



Nothing?
You believe God micro-manages, through His Devine control, every act, motive, and movement in life?
You believe ever act and thought of every man, from the moment of birth until death itself, is directed by God?


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## Ronnie T (Jun 17, 2012)

Why does God allow Evil? 

Don't know.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 17, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> The New American Standard Bible provides a more accurate look of the Hebrew words used:



Ronnie, am I allowed to respond to or challenge this comment?


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## gemcgrew (Jun 17, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Nothing?
> You believe God micro-manages, through His Devine control, every act, motive, and movement in life?


Absolutely


Ronnie T said:


> You believe ever act and thought of every man, from the moment of birth until death itself, is directed by God?


Absolutely purposed by God.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 17, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Why does God allow Evil?
> 
> Don't know.



I can't think of anything being evil that man isn't involved in, or has a choice in. Satan can tempt us or persuade us, but it takes us doing it to cause the evil....
 Evil is....because we have free will. Imagine that.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 17, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> I can't think of anything being evil that man isn't involved in, or has a choice in. Satan can tempt us or persuade us, but it takes us doing it to cause the evil....
> Evil is....because we have free will. Imagine that.



And who is Lord over evil? Lord over all things?


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## gemcgrew (Jun 17, 2012)

"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." (Genesis 50:20)

This sinful action was decreed by and purposed by God. That is how we know "that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

That does not mean that man is not responsible for the sinful action. God declares man responsible.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 17, 2012)

I found this article that I liked:
Let us consider the nature of love and its consequences. I cannot experience love from you unless you have the capacity to do otherwise. If you have the capacity to not love me, and you choose instead to love me, then that choice has validity. It has meaning. You cannot have a love relationship with a computer. It is pre-programmed to serve you. Love requires choice: unencumbered choice. And that's where the problem lies.

When God created mankind, He too had a choice. If He created us as beings that were pre-programmed to follow and serve Him, there could be no love. But, if He created us with the capacity of choice, the capacity to love and serve Him, and the capacity not to do so, then there is the possibility of relationship: the possibility of real love. As a personal being with the capability of creating us in the first place, it makes sense that He would want to create us as personal beings with the capability of choice (free will) and, thus, the capability of love. But where there is choice and the capability of love, there is also the capability to choose wrong and to do great evil.

http://www.fillthevoid.org/Apologetics/EastmanWhydoesGodallowevil.html


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## gemcgrew (Jun 17, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I found this article that I liked:
> Let us consider the nature of love and its consequences. I cannot experience love from you unless you have the capacity to do otherwise. If you have the capacity to not love me, and you choose instead to love me, then that choice has validity. It has meaning. You cannot have a love relationship with a computer. It is pre-programmed to serve you. Love requires choice: unencumbered choice. And that's where the problem lies.
> 
> When God created mankind, He too had a choice. If He created us as beings that were pre-programmed to follow and serve Him, there could be no love. But, if He created us with the capacity of choice, the capacity to love and serve Him, and the capacity not to do so, then there is the possibility of relationship: the possibility of real love. As a personal being with the capability of creating us in the first place, it makes sense that He would want to create us as personal beings with the capability of choice (free will) and, thus, the capability of love. But where there is choice and the capability of love, there is also the capability to choose wrong and to do great evil.



To say that God needs us to love him and to have a relationship with him, is to say that God is not self sustaining, self sufficient, self existent. 

He needs nothing. He has the right to be God and he exercises his right. "Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." (Psalm 135:6) "But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." (Psalm 115:3)


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## gtparts (Jun 17, 2012)

bullethead said:


> King James Version (KJV)
> 
> Isaiah 45:7
> I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.





Ronnie T said:


> The New American Standard Bible provides a more accurate look of the Hebrew words used:
> 
> The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.



I cannot for the life of me understand why some believe evil is the creation of God, but leave it to some to read more into Scripture than was ever intended. One of the principles regarding accurate interpretation is that we be exceedingly careful about doing so. It is rare that his Word is not succinct and to the point. The chief example is parables, designed to convey primary truth concealed within a common or simple story.

This passage from Isaiah is one such case. What God is explaining through the prophet is that his creation of any positive situation or reality has, as its consequence, "created" the antithesis or perhaps in a more correct sense, allowed the possibility for a position to arise that opposes that thing which He declares to be positive or good.

Darkness, then, is the absence of light. Where light has limited manifestation there is darkness. Where light has unlimited manifestation there is no darkness. The definition and nature is that they are mutually exclusive and diametrically opposed. God's goodness (well-being) is his hallmark, his nature. Wherever and whenever He chooses to restrain his goodness (here is probably where we will hear the accusation that God is not good), evil fills that void. The answer to those who bring up the notion that God is not good fail to accept the sovereignty of God or even if lacks sovereignty, He is nonetheless obligated to only allow us to experience goodness. We should be spared the consequences of our rebellion.

But nothing could be further from the truth. In this life, according to his purpose, we each may receive mercy, grace, ...... or neither. Mercy and grace are not poured out on individuals because they deserve such consideration. No one deserves either. The only thing He will not do violate his promises based on his perfect nature. Everything He says He will do, is done according to His nature, is his timing, in his manner.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> And who is Lord over evil?


In the OT Church
Satan as prince of this world, God allowed Satan to do evil unto Job, to prove to Satan that Jobs faith was strong enough that he would not break his free will and say evil against God.
The NT Church
 Is a team effort Satan and man together, since Satan is bound like a mean dog on a chain, man has to wonder in close enough to allow him to bite.




gemcgrew said:


> Lord over all things?



God The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost.
 He spoke this place into existence, He can speak evil out of it, but He doesn't ...why? I dont think we know yet.


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## ross the deer slayer (Jun 17, 2012)

God gave us free will, we tend to use that free will negatively and sin, sin grows larger and larger into horrible, evil things. Selfcontrol is EXTREMELY important in eliminating "some" evil..as humans cannot destroy all evil.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> To say that God needs us to love him and to have a relationship with him, is to say that God is not self sustaining, self sufficient, self existent.
> 
> He needs nothing. He has the right to be God and he exercises his right. "Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." (Psalm 135:6) "But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." (Psalm 115:3)



I wouldn't go so far as to say God needs us but wanted us. We don't need children but they are kinda nice to have around.(usually)
God made us for his glory. Why is it some don't honor his wishes?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 17, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I wouldn't go so far as to say God needs us but wanted us. We don't need children but they are kinda nice to have around.(usually)
> God made us for his glory. Why is it some don't honor his wishes?



Couldn't agree more.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Ronnie, am I allowed to respond to or challenge this comment?



Of course you are.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> To say that God needs us to love him and to have a relationship with him, is to say that God is not self sustaining, self sufficient, self existent.
> 
> He needs nothing. He has the right to be God and he exercises his right. "Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." (Psalm 135:6) "But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." (Psalm 115:3)





Artfuldodger said:


> I wouldn't go so far as to say God needs us but wanted us. We don't need children but they are kinda nice to have around.(usually)
> God made us for his glory. Why is it some don't honor his wishes?



I agree Art.
It seems the primary reason for such drastic differences in Gemc's core belief of God, and every other believer I've known in my life, is whether God is the Creator, the Reason for all things, the Great Judge and Comforter.  Or if God is actually the puppet master.

God is the creator of all things.. But God does not want to be your puppet master.
God has all understand and all knowledge.. But God does not want to be your puppet master.

"Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." (Psalm 135:6) "But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." (Psalm 115:3)... But God does not want to be your puppet master.

"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." (Genesis 50:20)..... But God does not want to be your puppet master.

"Nothing happens that God did not purpose in eternity. He does not have "oops" and "uh-oh" moments in his divine purpose and design."...... But God does not want to be your puppet master.

God moves in and among us all.  He brings calamity, blessings, and success to us.  By His power He brings it all to us.  But He does not, and never intended to become the puppet master of a creation.

God seeks obedience, love, dedication, not Miss piggy's.

If I fail, it's my fault, and God is unhappy with me.  God did not pull the string of my sin.... I did it.

But..... all good things are the result of God.  I can do nothing good of my own accord beyond believing.


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## piratebob64 (Jun 18, 2012)

Nice question,
IMHO God inadvertly created Sin when he created man and gave us free will. We were given free will to ensure that we love God freely and with no strings. In order for this to happen ther had to be a negitive side that gave us a choice to the positive.   

"God moves in and among us all. He brings calamity, blessings, and success to us. By His power He brings it all to us. But He does not, and never intended to become the puppet master of a creation"

I frown on those people who claim that GOD stopped their addiction or brought peace to their life.
This is contrary to what  his intentions are concerning free will.
I feel God only provides the way ,"YOU" have to provide the means. 
It is as simple as 2 dinners side by side one is Beef one is Chicken, are you ready at this point in your life to choose one Beef is God, chicken is Satan,
Here is my own point. I quit smoking 3 years ago I was felt I was ready years before that but never could just kick the habit.
Then I found about chantix, well I was presented with a choice IMHO from God, did I really want to quit or was I lying to myself. I chose to quit using the option that God had provided to me. Do I run around and preach God healed me from smoking"NO" I say god provided a choice at a pivotal time in my life and I made the choice to accept option 1 instead of option 2.
IMHO same goes for every  addict out there. They are presented a choice everyday 1change  or 2 remain 99.9 choose 2.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 18, 2012)

John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Phillipian 3:3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I think the problem with evil concerns the confidence we (man) can put in the flesh which is not the same confidence God put in the flesh from day one.

I would say God does not allow evil, but because of His mercy and understanding He allows for us (man) to carry on. Evil is the collateral damage, the adverse effect of self-pride in man the animal and not as much confidence in the original created man who can worship by the Spirit of God. These are two very different creatures...which The Cross attempts to reconcile.

The instinct in man to cleave to the Tree of the Knowledged of Good and Evil and solving problems by death and denials is strong--even to this day. Unfortunately the turn to the Tree of Life starts by a rock bottom self-kick in the pants, and/or fortunately in being born, or reborn, for our Christ-- to it!


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## pstrahin (Jun 18, 2012)

God wants us to choose Him over evil.

I cannot explain nor comprehend the providence of God.  However, if God controlled every aspect of your life, to include keeping you from being tempted by evil, then you would not grow spiritually.  God allows us to be tempted so we can grow and to strengthen our faith.  

1 Corinthians 10:13 comforts me.

No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.


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## StriperAddict (Jun 18, 2012)

piratebob64 said:


> Nice question,
> IMHO God inadvertly created Sin when he created man and gave us free will. We were given free will to ensure that we love God freely and with no strings. In order for this to happen ther had to be a negitive side that gave us a choice to the positive.
> 
> "God moves in and among us all. He brings calamity, blessings, and success to us. By His power He brings it all to us. But He does not, and never intended to become the puppet master of a creation"
> ...


 
Certainly there are times God comes in and delivers an addict miraculously from their addiction, weather drugs, porn, alcohol, food, depressive thinking, co-dependence, etc, etc.

And there are times an addicts' thorn in the flesh remains. He learns to lean on the Lord, as Paul did.

In spite of the old mantra: "God helps those who help themselves", an attitude of dependency is expedient in both cases.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 18, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> I agree Art.
> It seems the primary reason for such drastic differences in Gemc's core belief of God, and every other believer I've known in my life, is whether God is the Creator, the Reason for all things, the Great Judge and Comforter.  Or if God is actually the puppet master.
> 
> God is the creator of all things.. But God does not want to be your puppet master.
> ...



I am familiar with the puppet, puppet master and robot rebuttal. It is the same tactic preferred by atheist. Asath prefers "made one dog to pet and another one to kick".  This is nothing more than man's feeble attempt to overthrow God and to rob him of all Authority and Glory. There is no middle ground between the absolute Sovereignty of God in all things, and atheism. Either everything is by God's eternal design, or there is no God.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 18, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Asath prefers "made one dog to pet and another one to kick".



... but isn't that exactly your position?  

I see no difference between the God you believe in and the God Asath does not believe in.


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## gtparts (Jun 18, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> ... but isn't that exactly your position?
> 
> I see no difference between the God you believe in and the God Asath does not believe in.



Hey, CF. That's the way I see their positions, also. Same stipulations or criteria, different conclusions. I am almost convinced that they are both right..... not.


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## rockman7 (Jun 18, 2012)

some good answers here. but i'd like to add my 2 cents.

first to addresss isa. 45:7 (a favorite of athiests). the english translation gets a little sideways here. in "i create evil" the hebrew for "create" is "bara" which means to bring into existence or bring about.the hebrew for" sin" here is "ra" which is translated as "calamity", "greif", "sorrow","trouble","distress", and in this verse "evil". never anywhere is it translated as "sin". the idea, as in other scriptures like it are that God has created the laws of reaping and sowing, as well as penalties for thier voilation.and evil will come when these laws are broken.if men sin and reap for it it is not Gods doings but man.this idea that God brings sin and death upon us just because He can/is God is not found scripturally anywhere. He loves us and has try'd from day one to teach us such.

as for the original op's question.... its because He has no choice but to allow it. true ....He could close this whole shootin match down and start over . but, after a while He'd be back right here again.His law of sin =death is one even He cannot overcome(God must follow His own laws being the just and true judge He is)

the original sin did not come by way or adam as some think. this guy we call satan was once called "lucifer". Gods right hand man, he was perfect .his story is found in isa. 14 and ezek.28.this sin, and all like it are nothing but pure rebellion plain and simple. this rebellion leads to all the ickky bad stuff, which is none of God's doins.

my son once asked me "dad....how did a perfect being sin?". my answer is that everyone, including angels, are given free will.but unlike us God did not give angels free will nor ever desired to fellowship with them as He chooses with us.also God does not "micro manage anything (He sat back and had adam name the animals....that sound like "micro management?)we can follow God and recieve life or we can follow our own course and disreguard Him and take the outcome.

did God know this would happen? sure He did!!! and as i stated abouve even had God stopped it right there it would only have happened again and again.anytime anyone is given power, riches, ect. and chooses to disregard God they end up following the path of lucifer(what you think your any different??? lol)

God knowing this had a plan "from the foundation of the world" to counter this. His creation man (you and i) was His ace in the hole.
God too knew we would go the same route, but unlike lucifer God included a thing called "grace" for us.thru His son and His redemptive act we are given a second chance.

thry this "second chance" God will have under His authority a people ruling and rienging with Him who have seen and experienced first hand what the product and outcome of sin bring.no other creature in the universe besides us knows first hand how crappy it gets(sotra like a man might know how painful childbirth is but only a woman can know).

did God forsee all this? yup!! but it was the only way He could get things right. that being a people made in His image , on the same plane as Him, who could fellowship with Him that He could trust to eventually see that this creation of His is ran the way He wants.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 18, 2012)

Please allow me to ramble just a bit concerning why God might allow evil.

God made mankind in His image.  In my reasoning, God created mankind that God might have beings that He could relate to.  We think in ways that no other created beings do.  We love and we hate.  We have a personality.  We are teachable.  Able to make extreme choices that other animals and fish are not able to do.

On one hand I say that evil is nothing more than the absence of godliness.  But I'm reminded that Satan exists.  Satan can have an influence upon us.

God wants us to choose Him.  For God to receive what He wants (love and honor), there must be at least two choices for us.  For us to choose God, or not to choose God.
Hebrews chap 11 (faith chapter) exhibits that choice being made.  People who gave their lives; people who were sawed in half; people who left riches in order to be godly.

There has to be at least two options for a choice to be made.


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## rockman7 (Jun 18, 2012)

a good analogy for why God allows things to happen is like this.

when you hand your car keys over to your sixteen year old you know more than likely whats gunna happen.....so why do it?

because you love your kid and know that altho something more than likely will go wrong you do it none the less because you want your kid to grow up and learn sound discision making processes. you can't learn sitting around a tv playing video games

does that mean if he hits anouther car its your fault???the insurance company may see it that way to a point but the dmv certainly wont


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 18, 2012)

rockman7 said:


> a good analogy for why God allows things to happen is like this.
> 
> when you hand your car keys over to your sixteen year old you know more than likely whats gunna happen.....so why do it?
> 
> ...



Reminds me of the old saying "If you love something, set it free"


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## bullethead (Jun 18, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> The New American Standard Bible provides a more accurate look of the Hebrew words used:
> 
> The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.



So how do they differentiate the word when it actually says "evil" in that version of the Bible? Maybe it means calamity then too??

"rah" in the KJV Bible occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translated as "wicked," "bad," "hurt," "harm," "ill," "sorrow," "mischief," "displeased," "adversity," "affliction," "trouble," "calamity," "grievous," and"misery.

Which is the "right" Bible? Which is the "right" translation? Are all the other words that are used for "rah" exact for the verse and just in the one I provided wrong?


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## piratebob64 (Jun 19, 2012)

bullethead said:


> So how do they differentiate the word when it actually says "evil" in that version of the Bible? Maybe it means calamity then too??
> 
> "rah" in the KJV Bible occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translated as "wicked," "bad," "hurt," "harm," "ill," "sorrow," "mischief," "displeased," "adversity," "affliction," "trouble," "calamity," "grievous," and"misery.
> 
> Which is the "right" Bible? Which is the "right" translation? Are all the other words that are used for "rah" exact for the verse and just in the one I provided wrong?



To count the number of terms in a bible that has been rewritten and meanings lost in translation IMHO a bad thing to do.
The right thing to do is ask questions of others to help you along in understanding your beliefs.  Reading and the bible is one thing but having open disscussions about it and its meaning is another and that is why I think the bible was written.Gee if we count words then His name should Jahova/God as Johava is mentioned what 7000 +/- times!
Just using that as an example?


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## bullethead (Jun 19, 2012)

piratebob64 said:


> To count the number of terms in a bible that has been rewritten and meanings lost in translation IMHO a bad thing to do.
> The right thing to do is ask questions of others to help you along in understanding your beliefs.  Reading and the bible is one thing but having open disscussions about it and its meaning is another and that is why I think the bible was written.Gee if we count words then His name should Jahova/God as Johava is mentioned what 7000 +/- times!
> Just using that as an example?



The word for God should mean God, it is clear and understandable.

The word for evil should mean evil, not one of a dozen translations, in one of dozens of Bible versions, that can be substituted as the printer sees fit.

People argue that the KJV was the only reliable translation in the English language, because it was translated by the godliest of translators from the best Greek manuscripts.


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## rockman7 (Jun 19, 2012)

there are many mistranslation in the bible (from hebrew and aramaic to english).the problem is the original text used over 12,000 words . our english versions use only about 6,000. for example the word "eshtar" was mistranslated as "easter"(actually a pagan holiday).

this does not invalidate our present day versions one bit .remember we are told to "study" to find aproval.if a scripture seems wrong, out of harmony with the core beliefs it simply means "you " need to investigate its true intent.


personally i enjoy nonbelievers attempts to discredit scripture.....it makes me a better student and disciple.no offence bullethead but we were warned in corinthians that the "deeper things of God" could only be understood by true believers guided soley by the Spirit". in other words some will see it,just aint gunna make hay about it, and some will make it thier job to discredit it.even we believers have different ideas about scripture.... but in the end Gods word is right and we're basically all still babes bein fed milk(stoopid)


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## bullethead (Jun 19, 2012)

rockman7 said:


> there are many mistranslation in the bible (from hebrew and aramaic to english).the problem is the original text used over 12,000 words . our english versions use only about 6,000. for example the word "eshtar" was mistranslated as "easter"(actually a pagan holiday).
> 
> this does not invalidate our present day versions one bit .remember we are told to "study" to find aproval.if a scripture seems wrong, out of harmony with the core beliefs it simply means "you " need to investigate its true intent.
> 
> ...



So God used over 12,000 words in his original version to convey his message to the world. English versions cut his words down to 6,000 with one word sometimes used in place of a dozen different words and people are to believe these versions are the genuine words of God? No wonder there is such a wide range of discrepancy among believers and such opposition by the non-believers.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 19, 2012)

bullethead said:


> So God used over 12,000 words in his original version to convey his message to the world. English versions cut his words down to 6,000 with one word sometimes used in place of a dozen different words and people are to believe these versions are the genuine words of God? No wonder there is such a wide range of discrepancy among believers and such opposition by the non-believers.



God provided us with an interpreter.Each one of us live a different life with different opputunities, and problems.The same text may mean different things for different people at different times in their lives.Thats usually God working in our lives and shaping us and putting us where He needs us that we may share Him with others.
God could write the Gospels in the sky for all to see, but He allows us the JOY of sharing it.Theres few things greater than to have God use you to introduce Him to someone that doesn't know Him, not that it makes you great, but that He can be seen through you.
The Gospel and it's message can and has been spread without any written text at all.


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## piratebob64 (Jun 19, 2012)

bullethead said:


> So God used over 12,000 words in his original version to convey his message to the world. English versions cut his words down to 6,000 with one word sometimes used in place of a dozen different words and people are to believe these versions are the genuine words of God? No wonder there is such a wide range of discrepancy among believers and such opposition by the non-believers.



tHIS IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST MISTAKES I HAVE SEEN WHEN DISCUSSING THE BIBLE.
"GOD"  did not use 12000 words Man did and man reduced that number of words down to appox 6000, God did not write one word, verse or chapter of the bible, the only thing ever mentioned that "GOD" wrote was the 10 comandments.
The bible was written by "men" approx 500 years after Jesus death.  It is compiled of  stories and his teachings and quotes.
There was lost of interpatation from the spoken to the written. but all in all it is what is a beutiful guide for those who want learn about God and become as close to God as one can.


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## bullethead (Jun 19, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> God provided us with an interpreter.Each one of us live a different life with different opputunities, and problems.The same text may mean different things for different people at different times in their lives.Thats usually God working in our lives and shaping us and putting us where He needs us that we may share Him with others.
> God could write the Gospels in the sky for all to see, but He allows us the JOY of sharing it.Theres few things greater than to have God use you to introduce Him to someone that doesn't know Him, not that it makes you great, but that He can be seen through you.
> The Gospel and it's message can and has been spread without any written text at all.



I understand that is how you rationalize it to yourself in order that it makes sense to you. I am looking for answers that make sense to me.
Thanks for your time though.


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## piratebob64 (Jun 19, 2012)

piratebob64 said:


> tHIS IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST MISTAKES I HAVE SEEN WHEN DISCUSSING THE BIBLE.
> "GOD"  did not use 12000 words Man did and man reduced that number of words down to appox 6000, God did not write one word, verse or chapter of the bible, the only thing ever mentioned that "GOD" wrote was the 10 comandments.
> The bible was written by "men" approx 500 years after Jesus death.  It is compiled of  stories and his teachings and quotes.
> There was lost of interpatation from the spoken to the written. but all in all it is what is a beutiful guide for those who want learn about God and become as close to God as one can.



God got his point across with 10 simple sentences, why would he want to write a book! Right


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## gordon 2 (Jun 19, 2012)

piratebob64 said:


> tHIS IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST MISTAKES I HAVE SEEN WHEN DISCUSSING THE BIBLE.
> "GOD"  did not use 12000 words Man did and man reduced that number of words down to appox 6000, God did not write one word, verse or chapter of the bible, the only thing ever mentioned that "GOD" wrote was the 10 comandments.
> The bible was written by "men" approx 500 years after Jesus death.  It is compiled of  stories and his teachings and quotes.
> There was lost of interpatation from the spoken to the written. but all in all it is what is a beutiful guide for those who want learn about God and become as close to God as one can.



12000, 6000....the bible has whole books of poetry of with one sentence alone being 12000 words spoken in the Spirit. If ya'll want to shout about something, the Spirit does not count with eyes alone--The eyes see DARKLY!

Oh, and the chronology of when things got written and transcribed is not what I have learned--but my learning always trys to shapen itself...for my  confussions and misunderstandings.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 19, 2012)

bullethead said:


> So how do they differentiate the word when it actually says "evil" in that version of the Bible? Maybe it means calamity then too??
> 
> "rah" in the KJV Bible occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translated as "wicked," "bad," "hurt," "harm," "ill," "sorrow," "mischief," "displeased," "adversity," "affliction," "trouble," "calamity," "grievous," and"misery.
> 
> Which is the "right" Bible? Which is the "right" translation? Are all the other words that are used for "rah" exact for the verse and just in the one I provided wrong?



[1] create evil 

Heb. "ra" translated "sorrow," "wretchedness," "adversity," "afflictions," "calamities," but never translated sin. God created evil only in the sense that He made sorrow, wretchedness, etc., to be the sure fruits of sin.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 19, 2012)

bullethead said:


> The word for God should mean God, it is clear and understandable.
> 
> The word for evil should mean evil, not one of a dozen translations, in one of dozens of Bible versions, that can be substituted as the printer sees fit.
> 
> People argue that the KJV was the only reliable translation in the English language, because it was translated by the godliest of translators from the best Greek manuscripts.



In mine and your way of thinking, you're absolutely correct.  "Evil" should mean the same thing today in all sentences, and all speaches.  But biblically, it does not.

In the Hebrew, there are at least 4 different meanings for the word "love".
In the Hebrew, the word "fear" does not mean what you and I believe it means.  At least, not every time.

Ultimately, everyone will believe what they chose.  

One of the clues in Isaiah 45:7 is in the message that was being conveyed.

*From Strong's Concordance:*(as used in this verse)
ra': adversity
Original Word: ×¨Ö¸×¢
Part of Speech: Adjective; noun masculine; noun feminine
Transliteration: ra'
Phonetic Spelling: (rah)
Short Definition: adversity
********************

1 bad, disagreeable, malignant: of a woman, ×¨Ö¸×¢Ö¸×” ×‘Ö°Ö¼×¢Öµ×™× Öµ×™ Exodus 21:8 (E; perhaps, with changed accent, verb 3feminine singular ×¨Ö¸Ö«×¢Ö¸×”) disagreeable, unpleasing in the eyes of, plural Genesis 28:8 (P); of poisonous herb 2 Kings 4:41, malignant boils Deuteronomy 28:35; Job 2:7, diseases Deuteronomy 7:15; Deuteronomy 28:59; 2Chronicles 21:19; Ecclesiastes 6:2, deadly sword Psalm 144:10, arrows Ezekiel 5:16, severe judgments Ezekiel 14:21, wonders Deuteronomy 6:22; ×žÖ·×œÖ°×�Ö²×›Öµ×™ ×¨Ö¸×¢Ö´×™×� Psalm 78:49 = fierce messengers (of God; Ew§ 287 a Ges§ 130e), wild beasts Genesis 37:20,33 (JE) Leviticus 26:6 (H) Ezekiel 5:17; Ezekiel 14:15,21; Ezekiel 34:25; unclean thing Deuteronomy 23:10.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 19, 2012)

I. ×¨Ö·×¢226 adjective bad, evil (distinction from noun, and verb Perfect 3masculine singular, is sometimes not easy, and opinions differ); — masculine singular ×¨Ö·×¢ Genesis 6:5 +; ×¨Ö¸Ö‘×¢ Genesis 31:24 +; plural ×¨Ö¸×¢Ö·×™×� Genesis 13:13 +; construct ×¨Ö¸×¢Öµ×™ Ezekiel 7:24 (strike out Co); feminine singular ×¨Ö¸×¢Ö¸×” Genesis 37:2 37t. (this form usually noun), plural ×¨Ö¸×¢×•Öº×ª Genesis 28:8 14t.; ×¨Ö¸×¢Ö¹×ª Genesis 41:27 (18 t. noun); —

1 evil, distress, adversity: ×™Ö¸×¨Öµ×� ×¨Ö·×¢ fear evil Psalm 23:4; Zephaniah 3:15; ×‘Ö¼×•Öº×¨Öµ×� ×¨Ö¸Ö‘×¢ Isaiah 45:7 (of God), ×”×‘×™×� ×¨×¢ Isaiah 31:2; ×ž×ª×�× × ×™×� ×¨Ö·×¢ Numbers 11:1 (J) murmuring respecting distress (see Di); ×�×� ×˜×•×‘ ×•×�×� ×¨×¢ Jeremiah 42:6 whether prosperity or adversity; ×™×•Öº×� ×¨×¢ Amos 6:3 day of calamity; ×™Ö°×žÖµ×™ ×¨×¢ Psalm 49:6; Psalm 94:13; ×›×™ ×˜×•×‘ ×§×•×™×ª×™ ×•×™×‘×� ×¨×¢ Job 30:26; ×‘Ö°Ö¼×¨Ö¸×¢ in adversity Exodus 5:19 (E) Psalm 10:6; ×™Ö´×žÖ¹Ö¼×œ ×‘Ö°Ö¼×¨Ö¸Ö‘×¢ Proverbs 13:17; ×�Ö¶×¨Ö°×�Ö¶×” ×‘Ö¸×¨Ö¸Ö‘×¢ Genesis 44:34 (J); ×‘×›×œ×¨Ö¿×¢ Proverbs 5:14, ×ž×›×œ ×¨×¢ Genesis 48:16 (E) Psalm 121:7; see also Micah 1:12; Psalm 140:12; Job 5:19; Job 31:29 Proverbs 12:21; Proverbs 19:23.


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## stringmusic (Jun 19, 2012)

Bullet, did you not read the rest of that link posted by Striper Addict in the other thread? The verse is not even talking about moral evil.

Why do you find it hard to believe that by translating an ancient language into modern day english there might be some words that don't translate perfectly and their also might be some variations?


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## gemcgrew (Jun 19, 2012)

"I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?" (Isaiah 45:5-10)

These verses do not justify God. They rebuke us for questioning or objecting in the first place.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
> Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?" (Isaiah 45:5-10)



Seen _Prometheus_ yet?


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## gemcgrew (Jun 19, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Seen _Prometheus_ yet?


No. Is it worth seeing?


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## centerpin fan (Jun 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> No. Is it worth seeing?



I think so.  I'm gonna see it again tonight.  It deals with a lot of "Isaiah 45" questions.


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## bullethead (Jun 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Bullet, did you not read the rest of that link posted by Striper Addict in the other thread? The verse is not even talking about moral evil.
> 
> Why do you find it hard to believe that by translating an ancient language into modern day english there might be some words that don't translate perfectly and their also might be some variations?



I did read it. I also read about a dozen different Bible versions that have it translated differently. Which one of those is right?

I find it so hard to believe because once one word is changed or used out of it's original language to something"close to it" the original differs from the next version. The subsequent versions should be labeled as variations of God's word or translations as close as we could possibly get it.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 20, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Adam went on his own to eat the forbidden, getting his needs met of his  own way, his own choice.  Missing the mark is all about loosing one's  dependence on the Giver of life.  So begins evil. So begins the story



Adam went on his own? From what? Freedom from God?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Adam went on his own? From what? Freedom from God?



Adam was influenced to do evil by Eve. Eve was influenced to do evil by Satan. All three evil doers had a choice not to listen to the preceding or in Satan's choice himself.
This scenario proves that there has to be an opposite to good being evil. To love God there has to be a way to hate God, etc.
This is the basis for the whole free will concept. God can't make you love him if you don't have the ability to hate him. God can't make you not sin if you don't have the choice to sin. God can't make you believe in Jesus if you don't have the choice to not believe in Jesus.
This is what I believe but if you want me to find  something on the internet to disprove it give me about 10 minutes.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 20, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Adam was influenced to do evil by Eve. Eve was influenced to do evil by Satan. All three evil doers had a choice not to listen to the preceding or in Satan's choice himself.
> This scenario proves that there has to be an opposite to good being evil. To love God there has to be a way to hate God, etc.
> This is the basis for the whole free will concept. God can't make you love him if you don't have the ability to hate him. God can't make you not sin if you don't have the choice to sin. God can't make you believe in Jesus if you don't have the choice to not believe in Jesus.
> This is what I believe but if you want me to find  something on the internet to disprove it give me about 10 minutes.



Your scenario proves nothing because the scenario is flawed. "In the beginning God" is the better scenario. We know that sin came through Adam's disobedience but that is not what we are discussing. What caused this disobedience? If you establish that "In the beginning God" is true, there is no other scenario than God caused the fall according to his divine will and purpose.


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2012)

No one can speak for God so everything mentioned so far is opinion.
My personal opinion is that because mankind cannot explain why evil is rampant along side a God that wants us to combat evil every second of every day we must make excuses to try to comprehend it. There just is no sensible explanation for it which tells me it does not make sense to assign it to a God that we are taught can do anything and is responsible for everything...ESPECIALLY battling the forces of evil....to allow evil to exist in the first place. Evil is one of those catch 22 situations where we know it exists despite believing in a God that should not only not allow it to exist, but if the existence of God is true, must also have created evil and/or the instruments(satan) to create and carry out evil.
If there is a God he either wants evil to exist and refuses to stop evil.... Cannot do anything to stop evil.....or everything we have been taught about the existence of a God and his wishes are false.
OR
No God


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## gemcgrew (Jun 20, 2012)

bullethead said:


> My personal opinion is that because mankind cannot explain why evil is rampant along side a God that wants us to combat evil every second of every day we must make excuses to try to comprehend it.


Evil is rampant because God is using it in his creation for his purpose. He does not want me to combat it every second of every day. There, I explained it.


bullethead said:


> There just is no sensible explanation for it which tells me it does not make sense to assign it to a God that we are taught can do anything and is responsible for everything...ESPECIALLY battling the forces of evil....to allow evil to exist in the first place.


I agree.


bullethead said:


> Evil is one of those catch 22 situations where we know it exists despite believing in a God that should not only not allow it to exist, but if the existence of God is true, must also have created evil and/or the instruments(satan) to create and carry out evil.


I do not have a problem in saying God created, allowed or caused evil. He is the sovereign Ruler of his creation.


bullethead said:


> If there is a God he either wants evil to exist


This


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Evil is rampant because God is using it in his creation for his purpose. He does not want me to combat it every second of every day. There, I explained it.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> ...



Honest no excuse answers. I might not agree but I can respect the line of thought.


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## StriperAddict (Jun 21, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Adam went on his own? From what? Freedom from God?


 
Precisely.
Evil begins when we believe we can have our needs met without dependence on Abba Father. Adam concluded that the fruit Eve gave him was "good", a "goodness" that he deemed beter than the spoken word of God.  The wages of this "sin" was spiritual death...  carried on thru all creation, and needing A Saviour to redeem.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 21, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Precisely.
> Evil begins when we believe we can have our needs met without dependence on Abba Father. Adam concluded that the fruit Eve gave him was "good", a "goodness" that he deemed beter than the spoken word of God.  The wages of this "sin" was spiritual death...  carried on thru all creation, and needing A Saviour to redeem.



"Freedom from God?" So Adam was created by God but in such a way as to be a separate entity and no longer under God's dominion? Equal footing with God? Is that what you are saying?


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## Ronnie T (Jun 21, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> "Freedom from God?" So Adam was created by God but in such a way as to be a separate entity and no longer under God's dominion? Equal footing with God? Is that what you are saying?



No!  I don't see him saying that at all.

Here's some facts.

1.  God created mankind(Adam) in His own image.
      a.  Then He created Eve from Adam.
      b.  God created them exactly the way He wanted them.

2.  According to Gen 3 God created each of them with the capacity to disobey Him.
God gave them His commandment, they disobeyed His commandment.

3. 11 And God said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”   God told them not to.... but they did.
4.  13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”  There's only two humans in existance, and God asked what they've been up to.  He obviously knew before He asked.
5.  17 Then to Adam God said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it.........’;
God said:  "You've disobeyed Me."

*I think Striperaddict was holding Adam accountable, just as God Himself held Adam accountable.

Now the question:  Why did God allow evil into the world?  Why did God create Adam and Eve with the ability to be disobedient to Him?

He was obviously disobedient.  God was obviously angry, and God punished Adam.


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## BT Charlie (Jun 22, 2012)

And so is it misguided to harbor a desire to get to heaven, find Adam, and punch him right in the nose?  

Truth be told it wouldn't be much different if it was the story of Charlie and Eve.  Maybe worse.

We are created in his image, and yet the true depth of the capacity for treachery within our human heart defies rationale measurement.  It may be the hard place we stand next to, with the rock on the other.   God wired us for natural desire to be in 
relationship with the Father, the rock.  Our imperfection, the hard place, perhaps underscores our need for Jesus Christ.

Don't know why evil exists. His ways are above our ways and I'm finding it easier to just accept that.


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## Redleaf (Jun 22, 2012)

without evil,  there can be no good in the mind of human critters.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 22, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Here's some facts.
> 
> 1.  God created mankind(Adam) in His own image.
> a.  Then He created Eve from Adam.
> ...


I agree. The disobedience was purposed by God according to his divine will and purpose.




Ronnie T said:


> *I think Striperaddict was holding Adam accountable, just as God Himself held Adam accountable.


Adam is accountable. God in his sovereignty, made Adam accountable.



Ronnie T said:


> Now the question:  Why did God allow evil into the world?  Why did God create Adam and Eve with the ability to be disobedient to Him?
> 
> He was obviously disobedient.  God was obviously angry, and God punished Adam.


The answer to the 'Why?" is clear. Purposed by God.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 22, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I agree. The disobedience was purposed by God according to his divine will and purpose.
> 
> Adam is accountable. God in his sovereignty, made Adam accountable.
> The answer to the 'Why?" is clear. Purposed by God.



Never mind!


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## bubbaofga (Jun 23, 2012)

Redleaf said:


> without evil,  there can be no good in the mind of human critters.



Very simple, but very true.


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## bubbaofga (Jun 23, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Adam was influenced to do evil by Eve. Eve was influenced to do evil by Satan. All three evil doers had a choice not to listen to the preceding or in Satan's choice himself.
> This scenario proves that there has to be an opposite to good being evil. To love God there has to be a way to hate God, etc.
> This is the basis for the whole free will concept. God can't make you love him if you don't have the ability to hate him. God can't make you not sin if you don't have the choice to sin. God can't make you believe in Jesus if you don't have the choice to not believe in Jesus.
> This is what I believe but if you want me to find  something on the internet to disprove it give me about 10 minutes.



Not as simple, but very well said.


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