# THE BIBLE



## Banjo Picker (Jul 29, 2022)

The Bible, or God's Words of Scripture, is very simple to understand. No man has any excuse for misunderstanding it. Jesus constantly invited and provoked study of the Scriptures and even rebuked men for their lack of knowledge of revealed truth. He attributed all error to a lack of knowledge of the Bible. He answered His critics by saying, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God" (Mt. 22:29). He commanded men to "Search the scriptures; for in them ye THINK ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (Jn. 5:39).

After more than three years of the most, simple teaching by the greatest of all teachers, the disciples had to be rebuked for their unbelief and hardness of heart. This was not because they could not understand but because they did not believe what Christ said. He said to them, "O fools, and _slow of heart to believe _all that the prophets have spoken" (Lk. 24:25-27). Even after Christ had appeared and manifested Himself to them in various ways, they still refused to believe until He unbraided them _for their unbelief _and hardness of heart (Mk. 16:13, 14). The words Christ spoke were always simple enough to understand, but to _believe them _was another thing. You too may have a struggle at first, to really realize the benefits promise you, according to the Bible. You should begin now to believe the promises of the more abundant life and expect these benefits. You should begin to believe the good news that these blessings are for you and begin to appropriate them now.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 29, 2022)

Paul also taught that _hearing the word of God _was sufficient to cause one to believe. He said, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom _they have not heard?_ and how shall they hear without a preacher? . . . But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord who HATH BELIEVED OUR REPORT? So then faith cometh BY HEARING and hearing BY THE WORD OF GOD" (Rom. 10:11-18).

Nearly ninety times in the New Testament alone, and appeal is made to readers _to believe_ what "is written," as if everything was simple enough to understand if men wanted to understand and believe. In fact, not once in either Testament did any speaker or writer leave the impression that anything God said was hard to understand, if men would simply believe what God had said. The only hint of any misunderstanding on the part of anyone is in connection with those who did not want to believe and obey the gospel.

Jesus taught that it was only because of the wilfulness of men not to believe that it was hard to understand without exception (Mt. 13:9-17). 
Peter speaks of the "unlearned and unstable)," wresting the Scriptures to their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16-18). However, no person belongs to this class if he will make up his mind to believe and obey what is written instead of rebelling against it.

Pride, wilfulness, and rebellion against what "is written" are the cause of the Bible being hard to understand. The hard part then is not understanding with the mind but in being willing to obey what one does not want to obey. If one could not understand the truth, he could not reject it.


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## RegularJoe (Jul 29, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> ... Jesus constantly invited and provoked study of the Scriptures ..../QUOTE]
> 
> _Easie pesie_ 5min.s a weekday reading schedule download available at the 1/2 page website www.TheBible.bz
> Enables one to thoughtfully complete the New Testament in exactly 1 year,
> in a completely time manageable fashion.


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## Ruger#3 (Jul 29, 2022)

Our church provides a calendar of readings as part of your education and growth as a Christian. These relate to essential lessons and religious dates through out the year. Sermons often relate to some part of your studies. This is just one page of the calendar reference.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 30, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Jesus constantly invited and provoked study of the Scriptures and even rebuked men for their lack of knowledge of revealed truth. He attributed all error to a lack of knowledge of the Bible.



Here is the rest of the sentence.


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 30, 2022)

There is no excuse for anyone to misunerderstand God's Word if he will like a child, accept the Bible for what it says and be honest enough to consecrate himself to obey it. He must accept the Bible as God's Word. He must believe that God could not be honest if He sought to hide from man the very things, He will be judge him by in the end. He must accept the Bible the final court of appeal on its own subjects and forget man's interpretations and distortion of the Word. He must believe that God knows what He is taking about, That He knows how to express Himself in human language that He did say what He meant, and meant what He said, and that what He says on a subject is more important than what any man may say about it.

Look up the references and see exactly what the Bible says and believe it in preference to any man. Be sure you adhere to what is written and that you do not let preconceived ideas cause you to be biased on any point. Do not try to make The Bible conform to your ideas. Always reconcile your ideas to the Bible. Let the plain language of the references given be read and understood in the same literal way that we would understand similar statements in any other book.


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## Madman (Jul 30, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Here is the rest of the sentence.


Didn’t he rebuke the teachers as being ignorant?


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## Madman (Jul 30, 2022)

I don’t believe the Bible claims to be simple to understand.  The Ethiopian Eunuch claimed to need a teacher of the Scriptures, Peter said Paul’s writings were difficult to understand and easily twisted.


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## formula1 (Jul 30, 2022)

Madman said:


> I don’t believe the Bible claims to be simple to understand.  The Ethiopian Eunuch claimed to need a teacher of the Scriptures, Peter said Paul’s writings were not difficult to understand and easily twisted.



I would agree! 1 Corinthians 2 speaks to the need for understanding of spiritual wisdom among the mature.  So the Holy Spirit in us is paramount to understanding, particularly the deep things of God!


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## Banjo Picker (Jul 30, 2022)

Just consider that the Bible is simple and that God's Word for man is clear, and nothing will be hard to understand. Do not defeat yourself before you get start by thinking that the Bible is the hardest book in the world to understand. Forget that idea here and now! So-called mysteries that have seemingly baffled the wise of this world are still revealed to "babes."

Jesus at one time said, "I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, BECAUSE thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for it seemed good in thy sight" Mt. 11:25-27. He said of the so-called wise and prudent, "This people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes THEY HAVE CLOSED; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Mt. 13>10-17).

This is all important therefore that you be simple and humble in your attitude. And take the place of a disciple (learner) and accept at its face value everything that God says on any subject whether or not it harmonizes with your theories or those of your former teachers. If you want truth as it is in the Bible.
Let's study with an open Bible, and open heart, and open mind to all that God says, and be honest to lay aside old theories for plain, literal, and simple Word of God on all points.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 1, 2022)

Madman said:


> I don’t believe the Bible claims to be simple to understand.  The Ethiopian Eunuch claimed to need a teacher of the Scriptures, Peter said Paul’s writings were difficult to understand and easily twisted.



Jesus said, " I think thee O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, be, BECAUSE thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so Father: it seemed good in thy sight" (Mt. 11:25-27).

He said of the so-called wise and prudent, "This people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes THEY HAVE CLOSED; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted and I should heal them (Mt. 13:10-17).


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## brutally honest (Aug 2, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Do not try to make The Bible conform to your ideas.



Every thread you start is you trying to make the Bible conform to your ideas.


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## ClemsonRangers (Aug 2, 2022)

^that is brutally honest^


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 2, 2022)

Madman said:


> I don’t believe the Bible claims to be simple to understand.  The Ethiopian Eunuch claimed to need a teacher of the Scriptures, Peter said Paul’s writings were difficult to understand and easily twisted.





formula1 said:


> I would agree! 1 Corinthians 2 speaks to the need for understanding of spiritual wisdom among the mature.  So the Holy Spirit in us is paramount to understanding, particularly the deep things of God!


I agree, some parts are easy and some parts are not.


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## Madman (Aug 2, 2022)

Israel said:


> all parts are impossible for man.
> 
> Except One.


Then there is no need for the Bible if it can not be understood, or perhaps  I don't understand what you are trying to say


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## Madman (Aug 2, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Jesus said, " I think thee O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, be, BECAUSE thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so Father: it seemed good in thy sight" (Mt. 11:25-27).


That is a direct quote, what was Christ trying to say?  Do you really believe that wise men, like Solemn, did not understand, and that babies, who can't speak or understand anything, other than food, warmth, and sleep, could understand?


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## ClemsonRangers (Aug 2, 2022)

Billy Graham said that he had questions and didnt understand it all.

Jerry Vines said that it is because we are bird brains lol


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## Spotlite (Aug 2, 2022)

Madman said:


> That is a direct quote, what was Christ trying to say?  Do you really believe that wise men, like Solemn, did not understand, and that babies, who can't speak or understand anything, other than food, warmth, and sleep, could understand?


That’s not at all what that’s saying. The wise - those over-thinkers that try to dissect every word in multiple languages and walk away with a “new revelation” correcting everyone.

Babes - those that trust God’s Word for what it says.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 2, 2022)

Israel said:


> all parts are impossible for man.
> 
> Except One.


What does that even mean in relation to the conversation about whether the Bible is easy to understand or not other than to make one view himself as being clever? Do you not see the damage you do by making statements like this? Understanding the Bible is not impossible or God wouldn't have left it for us to study. Some parts do require much more contemplation and prayer than others though. The Bible is full of examples of this.


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## Madman (Aug 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That’s not at all what that’s saying. The wise - those over-thinkers that try to dissect every word in multiple languages and walk away with a “new revelation” correcting everyone.
> 
> Babes - those that trust God’s Word for what it says.


Agree. Now when does one decide to be literal or figurative?
Today, with Sola Scriptura, every man gets to decide on his own.  See the problem?


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## Spotlite (Aug 2, 2022)

Madman said:


> Agree. Now when does one decide to be literal or figurative?
> Today, with Sola Scriptura, every man gets to decide on his own.  See the problem?


Man shouldn’t decide. I think you can get both literal and figurative from the same passage - Noah’s Ark.

When we start getting stuff that conflicts with other scripture, then I see the problem.


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## brutally honest (Aug 2, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> What does that even mean in relation to the conversation … ?



You could ask Israel that about almost any of his posts.


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## The Original Rooster (Aug 2, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> You could ask Israel that about almost any of his posts.


I have no issue with anyone expressing their views of scripture however I might disagree with their interpretation. The Lord makes it clear that he weighs the heart. However, cryptic posts about the Bible being impossible (except for one) doesn't contribute to the conversation and simply isn't true. Christ's understanding of the scriptures was complete, ours is not. Studying the scriptures with prayer and contemplation is how we gain understanding.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 2, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> What does that even mean in relation to the conversation about whether the Bible is easy to understand or not other than to make one view himself as being clever? Do you not see the damage you do by making statements like this? Understanding the Bible is not impossible or God wouldn't have left it for us to study. Some parts do require much more contemplation and prayer than others though. The Bible is full of examples of this.



I agree!


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 2, 2022)

*BIBLE *
This word designates the collection of the Scripture of the Old and New Testaments that are recognized and used by the Christian church who follow the religion of Jesus Christ.

The word Bible is not found in the English versions of Scripture. It is the equivalent of the Greek word biblia, meaning books. The phrase "ta biblia" meaning "the books" occurs in Dan. 9:2 of the Septuagint for the prophetic writings. This usage for the Old Testament, passed into Christian church and in time it was extended to the whole of the Old and New Testaments. About the thirteenth century, by common usage the term was changed from the plural to the singular T_he Book._ 

OTHER NAMES OF THE BIBLE:
The Scripture Mk. 15:28; Jn. 7:38; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17. The Scriptures Lk. 24:27, 32; Jn. 5:39; Acts 17:11. The Holy Scriptures Rom. 1:2; 2 Tim. 3:15. The promises Rom. 9:4, 5; 15:8. The Oracles of God Rom. 3:2; Heb. 5:12; 1 Pet. 4:11. The Livley (living) Oracles Acts 7:38. The law of Moses, the prophets, and Psalms Lk. 24:25, 44. The law of the Lord Ps. 1:2. The law of the prophets Mt. 5:17; 11:13; Acts 13:15. The Book of the Lord Isa. 34:16. The Word of God Mk. 7:13; Rom. 10:17; Heb. 4:12. The Sword of the Spirit Eph. 6:17. The Old and New Testament Lk. 22:20; 2 Cor. 3:6-15; Heb. 9:15. The Word of Christ Col. 3:16. The Word of Life Phil. 2:16. The Scripture of Truth Dan. 10:21. The Word Truth 2 Tim. 2:15. and the Gospel of Christ Rom. 1:16.

The _word "testament" means_ a document disclosing the will of a person, a contract, an agreement, or a covenant between two contracting parties. All these meanings will become the more, clearer the more one studies the Bible. By the end of the second century, the Old and New Testaments became permanent names for the Jews and Christian Scriptures.

The Old Testament is largely a record of God's dealings with the Hebrew people and the revelations of His will to them and through them to the whole race, whereby He binds, Himself to take into new and special relationship all who obey His will. _The New Testament is_ largely the fulfillment and enlargement of the Old Testament and gives the record of the promises, agreements, or compacts between God and man, showing the privileges, blessings, and requirements of the gospel through Jesus Christ, the Redeemer of the world.


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## Madman (Aug 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Man shouldn’t decide. I think you can get both literal and figurative from the same passage - Noah’s Ark.
> 
> When we start getting stuff that conflicts with other scripture, then I see the problem.


Agreed, and this conflicts.  So where do we go for the answer?  I say we look to the tradition and teaching of the ancient Church.


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## Spotlite (Aug 2, 2022)

Madman said:


> Agreed, and this conflicts.  So where do we go for the answer?  I say we look to the tradition and teaching of the ancient Church.


I have certain reservations with “traditions” and what most consider the ancient church.

The church was born and added to in Acts. Jesus is to be the high priest you take your sins to, not a man wearing a rob as “father”. Jesus said call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Confession of sins one to another is basically saying hey dude, I got this problem will you pray with me. Confession to a priest is asking for forgiveness. There’s no requirement indicating that saying ten Hail Marys will earn forgiveness. Jesus didn’t put that out there, it’s as simple as repent - you come boldly to the throne….

Instead of fathers, bishops, priest, etc, He said I’ll give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. You can take your problems to your Pastor but you call on Jesus yourself for forgiveness.

The old tradition of offering your sacrifice to a high priest in the tabernacle has ended.


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 2, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I have certain reservations with “traditions” and what most consider the ancient church.
> 
> The church was born and added to in Acts. Jesus is to be the high priest you take your sins to, not a man wearing a rob as “father”. Jesus said call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Confession of sins one to another is basically saying hey dude, I got this problem will you pray with me. Confession to a priest is asking for forgiveness. There’s no requirement indicating that saying ten Hail Marys will earn forgiveness. Jesus didn’t put that out there, it’s as simple as repent.
> 
> ...



Not all ancient churches have confession to priests. Our public prayer of confession is below.

I will say one can walk into any of the ancient faiths and quickly know what’s going on. Protestant faiths are very different church to church.

ALMIGHTY God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Maker of all things, Judge of all men; We acknowledge and bewail our manifold sins and wickedness, Which we, from time to time, most grievously have committed, By thought, word, and deed, Against thy Divine Majesty, Provoking most justly thy wrath and indignation against us. We do earnestly repent, And are heartily sorry for these our misdoings; The remembrance of them is grievous unto us; The burden of them is intolerable. Have mercy upon us, Have mercy upon us, most merciful Father; For thy Son our Lord Jesus Christ's sake, Forgive us all that is past; And grant that we may ever hereafter Serve and please thee In newness of life, To the honour and glory of thy Name; Through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.


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## Spotlite (Aug 2, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Not all ancient churches have confession to priests. Our public prayer of confession is below.
> 
> I will say one can walk into any of the ancient faiths and quickly know what’s going on. Protestant faiths are very different church to church.
> 
> ALMIGHTY God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Maker of all things, Judge of all men; We acknowledge and bewail our manifold sins and wickedness, Which we, from time to time, most grievously have committed, By thought, word, and deed, Against thy Divine Majesty, Provoking most justly thy wrath and indignation against us. We do earnestly repent, And are heartily sorry for these our misdoings; The remembrance of them is grievous unto us; The burden of them is intolerable. Have mercy upon us, Have mercy upon us, most merciful Father; For thy Son our Lord Jesus Christ's sake, Forgive us all that is past; And grant that we may ever hereafter Serve and please thee In newness of life, To the honour and glory of thy Name; Through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.



I didn’t realize that. I was under the impression they did all confess to a Priest. I stand corrected.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 2, 2022)

Israel said:


> all parts are impossible for man.
> 
> Except One.


Amen. There are no unknowns to Him, where we have a summary without all the details.

I trust that He has me to know exactly what I need to know at any given time.


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 3, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> *BIBLE *
> This word designates the collection of the Scripture of the Old and New Testaments that are recognized and used by the Christian church who follow the religion of Jesus Christ.
> 
> The word Bible is not found in the English versions of Scripture. It is the equivalent of the Greek word biblia, meaning books. The phrase "ta biblia" meaning "the books" occurs in Dan. 9:2 of the Septuagint for the prophetic writings. This usage for the Old Testament, passed into Christian church and in time it was extended to the whole of the Old and New Testaments. About the thirteenth century, by common usage the term was changed from the plural to the singular T_he Book._
> ...



That would be a true statement if men had no interceded thousands of year after the establishment of the church and decided which books would be included in the Bible to support their perspective. Further there are writings outside the Bible that are not canonical but give context and clarity to events in the Bible. Much of this writing is by the Apostles.


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## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

Israel said:


> What do we have except by the spirit of God?


We have what was given by Christ.


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## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> That would be a true statement if men had no interceded thousands of year after the establishment of the church and decided which books would be included in the Bible to support their perspective. Further there are writings outside the Bible that are not canonical but give context and clarity to events in the Bible. Much of this writing is by the Apostles.


When Christ came, he did not give us a Bible, he established a Church.


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## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

Dr. Adrian Rogers used to say of those who complained that they couldn’t understand the Bible: “Perhaps it’s because you’re reading someone else’s mail.”


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## RegularJoe (Aug 3, 2022)

Madman said:


> When Christ came, he did not give us a Bible, he established a Church.


As Jesus left He granted us access to Him via the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, through which we were provided guidance assistance.

[8/3/22 8:15am EDT edit - Changed 'he' to 'He']


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## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

Israel said:


> He will lead you into all truth and take of mine and make it known to you.
> 
> (not a Bible "quote")


He was speaking to his Apostles.


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## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

As of yet, no one, not a single person on here, has explained why the beliefs Christendom holds, outside the ancient Church, are so varied, if what you are claiming is true.


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## Spotlite (Aug 3, 2022)

Madman said:


> As of yet, no one, not a single person on here, has explained why the beliefs Christendom holds, outside the ancient Church, are so varied, if what you are claiming is true.


I learned yesterday that not even all of the ancient church hold the same beliefs. Why?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 3, 2022)

What are some verses that show where the Holy Spirit helps us interpret scripture?


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## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I learned yesterday that not even all of the ancient church hold the same beliefs. Why?


For the exact same reason they don’t today.


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## RegularJoe (Aug 3, 2022)

Probably, this side of Heaven, the optimal agreement mix we are all going to _maybe_ get is:
1. Apostles' Creed (estimated 150 AD, actual author((s)) unknown) 
&/or
2. Nicene Creed (325AD - 1st Council of Nicaea; 381AD Amended - Council of Constantinople)?


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## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> What are some verses that show where the Holy Spirit helps us interpret scripture?


A good starting place is John ch. 14-16.


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## Spotlite (Aug 3, 2022)

Madman said:


> When Christ came, he did not give us a Bible, he established a Church.


And what’s considered the ancient church does not believe that salvation comes the way the first church received it the entire chapter of Acts when the church was born.

He did not give us a Bible when He came - true. But later He did and ALL scripture is given for us for instruction, etc.. Further, He said the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, will come and He will teach you in all things.

Prophecy went forth - from the House of David, Jesus now sits on the throne in power and authority to cover your sins. The veil was broken, you can now come boldly to the throne and repent of your sins and call on the name of Jesus, the only Advocate.

He will give us Pastors. He will give that Pastor what the church needs. But He didn’t set Pastors up to wear the shoes of Jesus, He set them up for the church to follow as the Pastor follows Jesus.


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## brutally honest (Aug 3, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I learned yesterday that not even all of the ancient church hold the same beliefs. Why?



Disagreement will always occur in any human endeavor.  There is a question of degree, though.  I can name three “ancient” churches:  Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and Coptic.  

OTOH, I can name the following Baptist groups alone:  Southern, American, Independent, Free Will, Hard Shell, Missionary, Cooperative.

Disunity is Protestantism’s shame.  (And I say that as a Protestant.)


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## brutally honest (Aug 3, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> I will say one can walk into any of the ancient faiths and quickly know what’s going on. Protestant faiths are very different church to church.



I would venture that many early Christians would not recognize much of modern worship _as_ church. 

An early Christian attends a modern mega- church worship service:

Early Christian:  “That was a great show!  Very entertaining!  What do you call it?”

Modern Christian:  “Church.”

Early Christian:


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## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Disagreement will always occur in any human endeavor.  There is a question of degree, though.  I can name three “ancient” churches:  Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and Coptic.
> 
> OTOH, I can name the following Baptist groups alone:  Southern, American, Independent, Free Will, Hard Shell, Missionary, Cooperative.
> 
> Disunity is Protestantism’s shame.  (And I say that as a Protestant.)


RCC, Orthodox, Coptic
Sounds like disunity to me. 
Just sayin’


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## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

Israel said:


> If we want to get really really apostle specific...can we go here?
> 
> If we take this (do we take this?) as specifically to the very apostles:
> 
> ...


I am of Paul, who are you of Peter or Apollos?


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> RCC, Orthodox, Coptic
> Sounds like disunity to me.
> Just sayin’



Far from it, they are very alike. Geography and language being the principle differences that contributed to small variances.


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## brutally honest (Aug 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> RCC, Orthodox, Coptic
> Sounds like disunity to me.
> Just sayin’



“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.  *When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them*, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.”

— Acts 15:1-2

“And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the LORD, and see how they do.  And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.  But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.  *And the contention was so sharp between them*, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;

 — Acts 15:36-39


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## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

Madman said:


> As of yet, no one, not a single person on here, has explained why the beliefs Christendom holds, outside the ancient Church, are so varied, if what you are claiming is true.



1Pe.1:20
Every Christian is not obligated to go to a “church” for secret knowledge.


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## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Far from it, they are very alike. Geography and language being the principle differences that contributed to small variances.


Very alike, small variances


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## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.  *When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them*, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.”
> 
> — Acts 15:1-2
> 
> ...


And?


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## brutally honest (Aug 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> 1Pe.1:20
> Every Christian is not obligated to go to a “church” for secret knowledge.



Apparently, they’re obligated to go to a boat on Lake Lanier.


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## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I learned yesterday that not even all of the ancient church hold the same beliefs. Why?


what are the differences?


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## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> And what’s considered the ancient church does not believe that salvation comes the way the first church received it the entire chapter of Acts when the church was born.


How so?


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## brutally honest (Aug 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> And?



… and there were disputes during the time of the apostles.  So, it should not be a surprise that there are disputes after the apostles.

All the ancient councils came about because of questions regarding the faith.


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## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> 1Pe.1:20
> Every Christian is not obligated to go to a “church” for secret knowledge.


Perfect example of what Sola Scriptura brings, a twisting of the Holy Scriptures.
2 Peter 3:16


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## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Apparently, they’re obligated to go to a boat on Lake Lanier.



 


brutally honest said:


> … and there were disputes during the time of the apostles.  So, it should not be a surprise that there are disputes after the apostles.
> 
> All the ancient councils came about because of questions regarding the faith.



And as the Preacher said “There is no new thing under the sun.”


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## brutally honest (Aug 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> RCC, Orthodox, Coptic
> Sounds like disunity to me.
> Just sayin’



There is also a question of degree.  Those were the three for the first 1500 years.

Do you know how many sprang up within 20 years of Martin Luther nailing his 95 theses to the church door?

Hint:  it was more than three.


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

Israel said:


> If we want to get really really apostle specific...can we go here?
> 
> If we take this (do we take this?) as specifically to the very apostles:
> 
> ...


You are trying to convey something here that I am missing.  Please explain to this simpleton.


----------



## brutally honest (Aug 3, 2022)

Time for me to imitate the apostles and go fishing.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 3, 2022)

Madman said:


> what are the differences?


It was said on here that not all ancient churches make confession to the priest. I’ll have to take it fit what it is. The only thing I know about the Catholic Church is what I can read on the WWW. I’m nit Catholic. I think you’d have to sit under their teaching to know more or which online link is more accurate. I’ve only went to one Catholic service with a friend.


----------



## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

Madman said:


> Perfect example of what Sola Scriptura brings, a twisting of the Holy Scriptures.
> 2 Peter 3:16


Keep reading


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 3, 2022)

Madman said:


> How so?


What do they (ancient church) teach for salvation?


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> … and there were disputes during the time of the apostles.  So, it should not be a surprise that there are disputes after the apostles.
> 
> All the ancient councils came about because of questions regarding the faith.


Correct, and the councils settled the issues, until the "reformation" when it became every man and his Bible.


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> What do they (ancient church) teach for salvation?


your accusation you tell me.


----------



## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> There is also a question of degree.  Those were the three for the first 1500 years.
> 
> Do you know how many sprang up within 20 years of Martin Luther nailing his 95 theses to the church door?
> 
> Hint:  it was more than three.



It tripled after the first century.


----------



## Nicodemus (Aug 3, 2022)

Who is right?

Who is wrong?

And who is truly qualified to say for sure?


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Keep reading


You used 2 Peter 3:16 as proof of your position if you have more to offer then please continue.


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> And who is truly qualified to say for sure?


The Church


----------



## Nicodemus (Aug 3, 2022)

Madman said:


> The Church




Which one?


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

God saves us as individuals but places us in His family, the Church.  I cannot understand why some choose to divorce themselves from the family of God.

Then again I do understand, I have been to protestant gatherings with my Grands, aunts, uncles, etc. and some of those are the scariest most condemning men I have ever seen or heard preach.   I remember one told me I was going to He11 because I chewed tobacco, but it was difficult for him to get his 400 lb. self on the stage to preach.  Must have been a glandular problem, no way it was gluttony.


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Which one?


the one Christ started, "On this rock I will build my Church".
The ancient Church that we see in Acts, in the first century, and has continued unbroken until today.


----------



## Ruger#3 (Aug 3, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> What do they (ancient church) teach for salvation?



The Nicene Creed sums it up...

*WE BELIEVE* in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen.


----------



## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

Madman said:


> You used 2 Peter 3:16 as proof of your position if you have more to offer then please continue.



Actually you used 2Pe.3:16


----------



## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Who is right?
> 
> Who is wrong?
> 
> And who is truly qualified to say for sure?


Some mighty fine questions you have there sir.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 3, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> The Nicene Creed sums it up...
> 
> *WE BELIEVE* in one God,
> the Father, the Almighty,
> ...


Ok, the devil believes in one God, too. I’m talking about salvation according to scripture the entire Book of Acts when the church was born - as far being filled  with the spirit, more specifically, when.


----------



## Nicodemus (Aug 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Some mighty fine questions you have there sir.




Thank you. I was sincere in my asking.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 3, 2022)

Madman said:


> your accusation you tell me.


I can’t accuse or disagree by asking you what you teach.


----------



## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

Spot,
I can’t get your post(#77) to quote for some reason, but the answer is Ro. 10:17


----------



## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Thank you. I was sincere in my asking.


Yes, you are. I’d be lying if I made out like I had all the answers. My best advice is to study the Scriptures and sincerely ask the Spirit to guide you. 

I avoided this forum for a long time. Sometimes I think it’s more of a hindrance than a help(yes,I have my hand up).


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> It was said on here that not all ancient churches make confession to the priest. I’ll have to take it fit what it is. The only thing I know about the Catholic Church is what I can read on the WWW. I’m nit Catholic. I think you’d have to sit under their teaching to know more or which online link is more accurate. I’ve only went to one Catholic service with a friend.


Rather than believe what is said on here you may want to research those Churches.


----------



## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> The Nicene Creed sums it up...
> 
> *WE BELIEVE* in one God,
> the Father, the Almighty,
> ...



Which baptism? And around and around we go.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Aug 3, 2022)

Israel said:


> One man understood the scriptures while many thought Him "breaking" the law. One man understood the scriptures when it was made clear none understood how a son of David would be called "Lord" by that David.
> 
> One understood that while many _thought they understood and kept themselves in all accord with God's intent and word _by keeping their trousers zipped (hey that's easy to understand!) the true adultery was taking place where men don't care to speak about.
> 
> ...


Israel,
When you make a cryptic statement like "All parts are impossible for man. Except One", I have to disagree. 
All parts were impossible for man. Until One, or even better John 1:14.
As a believer, I understand what you're saying but someone struggling to find Christ might not. That is the damage I speak of.
I believe that you have great gifts to share on this forum, but I fear they are sometimes misunderstood. I ask that you read 1st Corinithians 14 1-19 so that what you share might be better understood.


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Actually you used 2Pe.3:16


You are correct it was a typo, I meant 1Pe.1:20 
may we now continue?


----------



## Banjo Picker (Aug 3, 2022)

*WHAT THE BIBLE IS NOT*

The Bible is not an amulet, a charm, a fetish, or a thing that will work wonders by its very presence without any voluntary agency. The Bible does not claim to be any such thing. It does claim that if one will study and practice it that it will work wonders in the life now and hereafter. It will not benefit a man by its presence any more than a spring of cool water to a thirsty man in the desert will benefit him if he refuses to drink.

The Bible is not a book of chronological events or one unbroken series of divine utterances. It was given piecemeal, here a little and there a little, to many men through eighteen or more centuries Isa. 28:9-11. In spite of this it forms a perfect unity.

The Bible is not a book of heavenly utterances in supernatural language. It is God's revelation in the most simple human language possible.

The Bible is not a book of mysteries. It explains its so-called mysteries and it is self-interpreting, so that no mystery remains in it.

The Bible is not a book that says one thing and means another. It has generally only one simple meaning. If a few passages have a double meaning, that is quite clear from the passage itself or from parallel passages. One cannot, as is commonly believed get a thousand different meanings from any one passage.

The Bible is not a specimen of God's skill as a writer or logician. It is a book written by men whom God used to record His revelation. God used the men by giving them freedom of expression to use their own language and ways of expressing truth. The writers were God's penmen and not God's pens. All that inspiration guarantees, is unity of thought, not the sameness of words and expressions.

The Bible is not a book of systematic discourses on any one subject, but it does give divine information on practically every subject. One must collect together here and there all God's information through various writers in order to get the whole truth. When this is done there is perfect harmony, and everything about the subject that man really needs to know, is clear.

The Bible is not a book that conforms to the tastes, customs, or habits of any one nation or people, or for any one age or period of time. It is a book to which all people in all ages can conform, and yet retain their own peculiar customs and habits THAT ARE NOT SINFUL AND CONTRARY TO THE WILL OF GOD.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Aug 3, 2022)

Israel said:


> Thank you brother.


And thank you, and forgive my words spoken in haste if they offended.


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

Perhaps it would be simpler to use an example of a belief that the Church has always held, and still holds today, infant baptism.  The Church in the west, Rome and Anglicans, the Church in the East, Orthodox (Byzantine) the Church in the south, Coptic, all baptize infants, and it is a Trinitarian baptism.  They are one mind.

On the other hand the protestant denominations are all over the map, infant, believer, Jesus only, Trinitarian.

How is one to know?


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 3, 2022)

Madman said:


> Rather than believe what is said on here you may want to research those Churches.


Just my opinion, I think it’s better to hear from those on here that attend instead of reading 100’s of links that differ. 

My goal isn’t to prove anything right / wrong. It’s to better understand those that differ from me.


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

Israel said:


> wouldn't it be funny...as in hilariously good to find out what the church is always in attendance to...even in a place "like this"...? That bread is always being...and to be broken amongst the brethren...of every nation, tribe and tongue...


It is, to understand the meaning of the Mass is to understand that very statement.

"THEREFORE with Angels and Archangels, and with all the company of heaven, we laud and magnify thy glorious Name; evermore praising thee, and saying, HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, Lord God of hosts, Heaven and earth are full of thy glory: Glory be to thee, O Lord Most High. Amen. "


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Which baptism? And around and around we go.



Only those with no anchor go around and around, many of us are well grounded.


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

Israel said:


> I remember years ago when with some brothers we faced the matter of seeming divisions...of matters great and small that seemed to be presenting to hinder and we met some brothers previously unknown to us who were not averse to the matters in question, being in question.
> 
> One said finally..."OK...but do we come to you...or do you come to us?"



And how did you answer?

I would have recommended coming to Christ and his Church.


----------



## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

Madman said:


> Only those with no anchor go around and around, many of us are well grounded.


Looks like to me you’re sitting on your axles in man-made mud


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Looks like to me



No one is blinder than him who refuses to see.


----------



## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

Except he that has on the blinders of man’s traditions.


----------



## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2022)

Done with that.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 3, 2022)

Madman said:


> the one Christ started, "On this rock I will build my Church".
> The ancient Church that we see in Acts, in the first century, and has continued unbroken until today.


Acts and “The rock”.

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Later in Acts

“For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given,”


Again in Acts.

“He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”l

And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them”



> and has continued unbroken until today.



Unless you’re still doing what they did in Acts, it hadn’t continued unbroken. From what I read earlier it was a “prayer acknowledging belief”. It doesn’t look like that is what happened in Acts.


----------



## wpage (Aug 3, 2022)

Bible is Gods holy word... Translated by men.


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

What do you do with Jesus' command to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?
Would one admit that the Trinitarian baptism is at least a valid baptism?

None of the passages in Acts refer to the formula to use when administering the Sacrament.  

In Acts Peter is speaking to the recipient not the baptizer. 

When speaking to general crowds or people who were asking questions, such as , "what do we do" the response would be "be baptized" but this baptism was a specific baptism, it was the baptism of Jesus, not of John, or Apollos, or even the ceremonial baptism that the Jews used, this baptism would be of those who were taught by Jesus and they would use the formula he gave them.

Specifically to the remaining 11 

Matthew 28: 16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Unless you’re still doing what they did in Acts, it hadn’t continued unbroken. From what I read earlier it was a “prayer acknowledging belief”. It doesn’t look like that is what happened in Acts.



What is this “prayer acknowledging belief”?


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

wpage said:


> Bible is Gods holy word... Translated by men.


That is interesting.  What is it translated from?


----------



## wpage (Aug 3, 2022)

Madman said:


> That is interesting.  What is it translated from?


Translated from greek, hebrew, and other sources. Some say the King James version was collated in England, by many interpretations of the Holy Word...


----------



## Banjo Picker (Aug 3, 2022)

*WHAT THE BIBLE IS*

The Bible is God's inspired revelation of the origin and destiny of all things. It is the power of God unto eternal salvation, and it is the source of present help for body, soul, and spirit (Rom. 1:16; Jn. 15:7). It is God's will and testament to men in all ages, revealing the plan God has for man here and now and in the next life. It is the record of God's dealings with man, past, present, and future. It contains God's message of eternal salvation to all who believe in Christ and of eternal ****ation to those who rebel against the gospel.

As a literary composition, the Bible is the most remarkable book ever made. It is a divine library of six-six books, some of considerable size, and others no larger than a tract. These books include various forms of literature, history, biography, poetry, proverbial sayings, hymns, letters, directions for elaborate ritualistic worship, laws, parables, riddles, allegories, prophecy, drama, and all other forms of human expression. They embrace all manner of literary styles. It cannot be exceled from any standpoint.

It is a book that contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts binding, its histories true, and its decisions immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you. It is the traveler's map, the pilgrim's staff, the pilot's compass, the soldier's sword, and the Christian's charter. Here Heaven is opened, and the gates of He11 disclosed. Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill your memory, rule your heart, and guide your feet in righteousness and in true holiness. Read it slowly, frequently, prayerfully, meditatively, searchingly, devotionally, and study it constantly, perseveringly, and industriously. Read it through and through until it becomes part of your being and generates faith that will move mountains. It is a mine of wealth, the source of health, and a world of pleasure. It is given to you in this life, will be opened at the judgment, and will last forever. It involves the highest responsibility, will reward the least to the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

wpage said:


> Translated from greek, hebrew, and other sources. Some say the King James version was collated in England, by many interpretations of the Holy Word...



Thanks
Glad you are here.


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Except he that has on the blinders of man’s traditions.


And those "traditions" would be what?


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 3, 2022)

Madman said:


> What do you do with Jesus' command to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?
> Would one admit that the Trinitarian baptism is at least a valid baptism?
> 
> None of the passages in Acts refer to the formula to use when administering the Sacrament.
> ...


We can beat bushes all day or simply ask in very basic grammar, what’s that name? If I’m to send a check and make it payable to the neighbor do I write payable to the neighbor or write his name? Makes a difference. The Apostles knew what it meant. Jesus does not contradict himself or leave himself unclear. He’s not going to tell you to use a formula here, and tell you to do every deed in the name of the Lord Jesus without given you the exception of baptism if He didn’t intend for you to apply that name there as well. He meant every deed. He means the name of those titles.

Furthermore, in Acts, it’s very clear that baptism “who forbids water” was water baptism and baptism of the Holy Ghost aren’t the same.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 3, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Acts and “The rock”.
> 
> “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
> 
> ...



"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them”
Who did that after Paul was dead an gone?


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them”
> Who did that after Paul was dead an gone?



Apostolic succession;
1 Tim 4:14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

Paul, expected Timothy to consecrate others as bishops but warns him not to be hasty.
1 Timothy 5:22 Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

The early Church writings show that the Church has been unanimous about apostolic succession.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 3, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them”
> Who did that after Paul was dead an gone?


He said go make disciples??? Don’t take that as power in man, though. Silver and gold I don’t have - basically, I have nothing of value to give you, it comes from above.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 3, 2022)

I still think the name is more of the authority. Name-cause-reason-authority. Such as saying "in the name of the Queen, we seek salvation from Russia." "In the name of God, we _____." In the sake of, in the authority of. 
In the name of Jesus is his death on the Cross and with his authority given to those disciples. 
Regardless of how one views Oneness or the Trinity, Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as is the Father is the Son and Holy Ghost. As is the Holy Ghost the Father and Son.

The major difference is how one sees the incarnation to the human Son. Oneness sees the one God becoming the human Son. They see the one God becoming the Holy Spirit. They see Him as all three but He can't be all three at the same time.
Trinitarians see the eternal 1/3 part of the Godhead we call Son or maybe some other name, becoming the Son, incarnate as the human son. The Word was with God at the Creation as this 1/3 persona of the Godhead and as Son. They see this persona as having a hand in Creation. 
Oneness see this part or the Son as only in Word(mind) of God or in an out of time or no time restrictions on God. Thus the Son didn't truly appear until the One God became Jesus. Now that God is Jesus, we can only see God as Jesus.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 3, 2022)

Madman said:


> Apostolic succession;
> 1 Tim 4:14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
> 
> Paul, expected Timothy to consecrate others as bishops but warns him not to be hasty.
> ...


What about all the Protestants that felt the indwelling of the Holy Spirit come upon them at some point in the lives either after or during their becoming a child of God? Who laid their hands on them that gave them the Holy Spirit?
Come to think of it, I don't recall the preacher who baptized me or someone else laying hands on me to receive the Holy Spirit.  Although I did and do feel His presence.
Who does that in the Catholic Church and when do they administer the laying of the hands for this purpose? Like when Paul did it.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 3, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> He said go make disciples??? Don’t take that as power in man, though. Paul said silver and gold I don’t have - basically, I have nothing of value to give you, it comes from above.


"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them”
Who were and who are they now? These disciples who lay hands on people so they can receive the Holy Spirit?

The practice of laying on of hands for the receiving of God's Spirit is mentioned in Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6, and 2 Timothy 1:6.


----------



## Madman (Aug 3, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> What about all the Protestants that felt the indwelling of the Holy Spirit come upon them at some point in the lives either after or during their becoming a child of God? Who laid their hands on them that gave them the Holy Spirit?


I have no idea,

Acts 8:14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. 

Acts 19:1-7 
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied.  4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.




Artfuldodger said:


> Who does that in the Catholic Church and when to they administer the laying of the hands for this purpose? Like when Paul did it.


A bishop at confirmation.


----------



## Banjo Picker (Aug 3, 2022)

It is a mirror to reflect (Jas. 1:23), Hammer to convict (Jer. 23:29), fire to refine (Jer. 23:29), seed to multiply (1 Pet. 1:23), laver to cleanse (Eph. 5:26; Jn. 15:3), Lamp to guide (Ps. 119:105). and food to nourish, including milk for babes (1 Pet. 2:2), bread for the hungry (Mt. 4:4), meat for men (Heb. 5:11-14), and honey for dessert (Ps. 19:10). It is rain and snow to refresh (Isa. 55:10), a sword to cut (Heb. 4:12), a bow to revenge (Hab. 3:9), gold to enrich (Ps. 19:7-10), and power to create life and faith (1 Pet. 1:23; Rom. 10:17).


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 3, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them”
> Who were and who are they now? These disciples who lay hands on people so they can receive the Holy Spirit?
> 
> The practice of laying on of hands for the receiving of God's Spirit is mentioned in Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6, and 2 Timothy 1:6.


Disciples are your church leaders. They also appoint alter workers. I do not find scripture indicating that laying on of hands is a MUST.

The significance of laying on of hands in those scriptures was more about a revelation to those that thought they were saved just because they believed, or just because they had been baptized.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 3, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> What about all the Protestants that felt the indwelling of the Holy Spirit come upon them at some point in the lives either after or during their becoming a child of God? Who laid their hands on them that gave them the Holy Spirit?
> Come to think of it, I don't recall the preacher who baptized me or someone else laying hands on me to receive the Holy Spirit.  Although I did and do feel His presence.
> Who does that in the Catholic Church and when do they administer the laying of the hands for this purpose? Like when Paul did it.





> Who laid their hands on them that gave them the Holy Spirit?


I know you probably did not intend to ask that question that way but to be clear, NO ONE. It is a gift from God.  "But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money."

Man / men used are just vessels.


----------



## Ruger#3 (Aug 3, 2022)

@Artfuldodger as side note, the laying on of hand is practiced at anointing the sick and  pastoral services. The Bishop lays on one hand to differentiate them from the Apostles who were described to lay on both hands.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 4, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Disciples are your church leaders. They also appoint alter workers. I do not find scripture indicating that laying on of hands is a MUST.
> 
> The significance of laying on of hands in those scriptures was more about a revelation to those that thought they were saved just because they believed, or just because they had been baptized.



"they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit."

Back then it appears folks believed and were baptized but didn't receive the Holy Spirit until the laying fo hands. I hope it wasn't because they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 

Also they had not even heard of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps if they had been baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit they would have at least said "wait a minute, who is this Holy Spirit you just baptized me with?"


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 4, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Disciples are your church leaders. They also appoint alter workers. I do not find scripture indicating that laying on of hands is a MUST.
> 
> The significance of laying on of hands in those scriptures was more about a revelation to those that thought they were saved just because they believed, or just because they had been baptized.


Saul was converted on the road to Damascus. Yet the Bible then speaks of Saul being filled with the Spirit a few days later when the man Ananias came and laid his hands upon him. We read about this in the Book of Acts.
I'm pretty sure he received his salvation when he was converted on the road to Damascus. Likewise those in Acts were saved during their conversion, they just hadn't received the Holy Spirit yet. They had never even heard of the Holy Spirit. I wonder if Paul had?
I don't think there is a delay between one's salvation at conversion and their receiving the Holy Spirit. Like wise, no delay be their conversion and Baptism.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 4, 2022)

According to John, Jesus’ baptism was the moment He received the accompaniment of the Spirit of God. No laying of the hands there.

Concerning those in Acts that had been baptized. If they were not already believers who had salvation, why would the laying of the hands convert them? Why would they suddenly become Christians if they weren't already? 
God would not put His spirit in individuals that were not His children.


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## tell sackett (Aug 4, 2022)

Art
Please keep in mind while studying Acts that this is the account of God building His church from scratch among groups of people who despised each other and had zero knowledge (except for the Jews) of God. He did things in different ways at different times to verify to these different groups that what was happening was His work. The normative experience for individuals to be brought into the body of Christ now is as we read of Cornelius.


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## Spotlite (Aug 4, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Saul was converted on the road to Damascus. Yet the Bible then speaks of Saul being filled with the Spirit a few days later when the man Ananias came and laid his hands upon him. We read about this in the Book of Acts.
> I'm pretty sure he received his salvation when he was converted on the road to Damascus. Likewise those in Acts were saved during their conversion, they just hadn't received the Holy Spirit yet. They had never even heard of the Holy Spirit. I wonder if Paul had?
> I don't think there is a delay between one's salvation at conversion and their receiving the Holy Spirit. Like wise, no delay be their conversion and Baptism.



Jesus revealed who he was to Paul. Scriptures you’re referring to:

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.


17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.



18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

I can only go off of scripture. Have you received since you believed.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 4, 2022)

*HOW THE BIBLE WAS GIVEN TO MAN.*

It was given through the audible voices of God (Mt. 3:16, 17; 17:5; Jn. 12:28; Deut. 5:24), of angels (Acts 7:38; Heb. 2:2), of prophets (Acts 3:21; 2 Pet. 1:21), of Jesus Christ (Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 1:1), and of the apostles (Acts 1:2; Eph. 4:7-11). It came through visions (Isa. 6; Dan. 7-8; Ezek. 1), dreams (Dan. 2; Mt. 1:20; 2:12), revelation (Gal. 1:15, 16; Eph. 3:3), and inspiration (2 Tim. 3:15-17).


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 4, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Jesus revealed who he was to Paul. Scriptures you’re referring to:
> 
> 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
> 
> ...


The only point in Paul's conversion I was making was about when he personally received the Holy Spirit. It wasn't on the road when he saw Jesus. And I'm pretty sure he had at least heard of the Holy Spirit before he received it when Ananias laid hands on him.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 4, 2022)

The Lord sent Ananias to Paul. Jesus said make disciples. It seems no matter how hard some of us try to take man out of the equation, God puts us back in it.
I'm sure God can save a Hindu in India that's never heard of him but I'm just not sure he does that without using a man.


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## Spotlite (Aug 4, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> The only point in Paul's conversion I was making was about when he personally received the Holy Spirit. It wasn't on the road when he saw Jesus. And I'm pretty sure he had at least heard of the Holy Spirit before he received it when Ananias laid hands on him.


Gotcha. I misunderstood. I agree.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 4, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Art
> Please keep in mind while studying Acts that this is the account of God building His church from scratch among groups of people who despised each other and had zero knowledge (except for the Jews) of God. He did things in different ways at different times to verify to these different groups that what was happening was His work. The normative experience for individuals to be brought into the body of Christ now is as we read of Cornelius.


There is the equipping and revealing function and the saving function of the Holy Spirit. Could it be that the Holy Spirit can reveal before one is saved? If not, how could one receive the call from God to be lead to Jesus?
They did speak in tongues though so I'm assuming the Holy Spirit was doing more than revealing.
In Acts 8 they were laying hands but by Acts 10 they were not.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 4, 2022)

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Interesting concept, this is Acts 2 but by Acts 10, it was no longer so. Unless this was just one way to receive the Holy Spirit. Unless "repent" means something other than what most think it means.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2022)

Perhaps since God presented his Spirit differently in Acts as he saw fit, the Cornelius way was not normative but just another aspect of God having mercy on whom he will have mercy.
Maybe in the Cornelius instance, the Spirit was presented in that way to show the Jews that their God is now saving Gentiles. That their God is now giving Gentiles the gift of the Holy Spirit. Those like in Ephesians that were previously without hope and the promises.

Can you imagine when those Jews saw those Gentiles speaking in tongues?

Unless there is a progression from Acts 2 to Acts 10 on how God could present the gift of the Holy Spirit and after Cornelius, God never went back to the other examples of how he could do it.


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## Spotlite (Aug 5, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Perhaps since God presented his Spirit differently in Acts as he saw fit, the Cornelius way was not normative but just another aspect of God having mercy on whom he will have mercy.
> Maybe in the Cornelius instance, the Spirit was presented in that way to show the Jews that their God is now saving Gentiles. That their God is now giving Gentiles the gift of the Holy Spirit. Those like in Ephesians that were previously without hope and the promises.
> 
> Can you imagine when those Jews saw those Gentiles speaking in tongues?
> ...



I don’t see a progression. We read in Acts 10
before Cornelius was filled, “Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God"………”And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing"

Obviously, the “belief” was in place. Scripture also says godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation. Repentance is more than just changing your mind. It’s not a walk around doom and gloom feeling, it’s a respect for God’s ways and a conviction for what you did. It’s no different than showing carnal remorse when you break a law. Acknowledge your wrong, don’t hide it, don’t do it again.

In Acts 2 they were pricked in their hearts. Another description of repentance is Judas. Based on the foundation in Acts it’s clear that there are those that believe and have not received. If you sincerely believe, it’s obvious that repentance was involved.

Look at Acts 19. They believed and already been baptized unto repentance.   

When they heard of the Holy Ghost - they were baptized in Jesus name and the next verse they received.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t see a progression. We read in Acts 10
> before Cornelius was filled, “Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God"………”And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing"
> 
> Obviously, the “belief” was in place. Scripture also says godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation. Repentance is more than just changing your mind. It’s not a walk around doom and gloom feeling, it’s a respect for God’s ways and a conviction for what you did. It’s no different than showing carnal remorse when you break a law. Acknowledge your wrong, don’t hide it, don’t do it again.
> ...


Seems to be different times and ways in some individuals when and how they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. I have a lot of Holiness and Church of God relatives. They believe something along the lines of receiving the Holy Spirit and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. I don't really remember enough about it to recall but it was two different events. I do remember seeing in their Churches and Camp Meetins' folks getting hands laid on them and them speaking in tongues. Some for the first time and others after they had been saved for awhile.
Seems like God has and does administer his Spirit in different ways and for different reasons to saved and unsaved folks. One would have to at least be lead by the Spirit to receive salvation and then to receive the indwelling of that same Spirit, which is the Spirit of God.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2022)

Maybe even though one has the indwelling of the Spirit, he can still "catch the Spirit" so to speak. Plus one could also be giving a gift or used to could, of the Holy Spirit. 
Maybe there is all sorts of ways the Spirit manifest itself in and on individuals.


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## formula1 (Aug 5, 2022)

God gives you what you need when you need for His purpose in you. And the Holy Spirit is tasked with carrying it to you. It could be anything He desires for you at any given time. Whatsoever is pure and right and needed he has the potential to give.

John 14:18
“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Luke 11:13
If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”


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## Spotlite (Aug 5, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Seems to be different times and ways in some individuals when and how they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. I have a lot of Holiness and Church of God relatives. They believe something along the lines of receiving the Holy Spirit and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. I don't really remember enough about it to recall but it was two different events. I do remember seeing in their Churches and Camp Meetins' folks getting hands laid on them and them speaking in tongues. Some for the first time and others after they had been saved for awhile.
> Seems like God has and does administer his Spirit in different ways and for different reasons to saved and unsaved folks. One would have to at least be lead by the Spirit to receive salvation and then to receive the indwelling of that same Spirit, which is the Spirit of God.


There are a few Baptist churches around here and some Church of God that believe in the Holy Ghost but don’t believe you have to have it. 

What considered the “Holiness” churches don’t believe you’re “saved” without the Holy Ghost because that was the promised gift to come - the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost. They'll point back to Acts where (have you received since you believed) believers that were filled. They teach that believing comes with the revelation, then salvation comes with the infilling.


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## tell sackett (Aug 5, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> There is the equipping and revealing function and the saving function of the Holy Spirit. Could it be that the Holy Spirit can reveal before one is saved? If not, how could one receive the call from God to be lead to Jesus?
> They did speak in tongues though so I'm assuming the Holy Spirit was doing more than revealing.
> In Acts 8 they were laying hands but by Acts 10 they were not.



Yes, I believe that the Spirit whispers (and shouts if necessary) into the hearts of dead men to draw them to Christ. Without that work none would be saved. 
Again, remember that God was bringing these events to pass in order to build His church from all these people who despised each other.


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## tell sackett (Aug 5, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Perhaps since God presented his Spirit differently in Acts as he saw fit, the Cornelius way was not normative but just another aspect of God having mercy on whom he will have mercy.
> Maybe in the Cornelius instance, the Spirit was presented in that way to show the Jews that their God is now saving Gentiles. That their God is now giving Gentiles the gift of the Holy Spirit. Those like in Ephesians that were previously without hope and the promises.
> 
> Can you imagine when those Jews saw those Gentiles speaking in tongues?
> ...


I believe that is exactly why, in fact it says they were astonished. The Lord wanted there to be no doubt as to what He had done and He made certain that these men from the church in Jerusalem were there to witness it. If you read 11:1-18 it illustrates that necessity.


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## tell sackett (Aug 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t see a progression. We read in Acts 10
> before Cornelius was filled, “Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God"………”And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing"
> 
> Obviously, the “belief” was in place. Scripture also says godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation. Repentance is more than just changing your mind. It’s not a walk around doom and gloom feeling, it’s a respect for God’s ways and a conviction for what you did. It’s no different than showing carnal remorse when you break a law. Acknowledge your wrong, don’t hide it, don’t do it again.
> ...





Spotlite said:


> I don’t see a progression. We read in Acts 10
> before Cornelius was filled, “Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God"………”And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing"
> 
> Obviously, the “belief” was in place. Scripture also says godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation. Repentance is more than just changing your mind. It’s not a walk around doom and gloom feeling, it’s a respect for God’s ways and a conviction for what you did. It’s no different than showing carnal remorse when you break a law. Acknowledge your wrong, don’t hide it, don’t do it again.
> ...



In Acts 10:1-8 Cornelius is under the conviction of the Spirit, He is awakening a dead heart to the truth of sin and the need of a Savior. During Peter's sermon Cornelius and his family and friends believe on Jesus as their Savior and receive the indwelling of the Spirit. This happens to everyone who trusts Christ as Savior, they are indwelt. Unfortunately we are leaky vessels and we must and can be filled by the Spirit at different times.

It's interesting, when you read of Judas' repentance a different Greek word is used. Judas was remorseful or sorry for what he did, but he didn't repent unto salvation(different word).

In Acts 19 that group had been baptized unto John's baptism, but after Paul preached Jesus unto them they received the Spirit.


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## Spotlite (Aug 5, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> In Acts 10:1-8 Cornelius is under the conviction of the Spirit, He is awakening a dead heart to the truth of sin and the need of a Savior. During Peter's sermon Cornelius and his family and friends believe on Jesus as their Savior and receive the indwelling of the Spirit. This happens to everyone who trusts Christ as Savior, they are indwelt. Unfortunately we are leaky vessels and we must and can be filled by the Spirit at different times.
> 
> It's interesting, when you read of Judas' repentance a different Greek word is used. Judas was remorseful or sorry for what he did, but he didn't repent unto salvation(different word).
> 
> In Acts 19 that group had been baptized unto John's baptism, but after Paul preached Jesus unto them they received the Spirit.


And, that is my point. Most say they are filled when they believed and or were baptized. 

Scripturally, God`s conviction brings repentance (they were pricked when they heard this). Their heart may be awakening from the dead but according to scripture some were baptized unto repentance, rebaptized in Jesus name. They all had believed. None had been filled. Scripture states after they heard these things, they laid hands on them and then they were filled. That points to salvation comes with the infilling of the Holy Ghost.


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## tell sackett (Aug 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> And, that is my point. Most say they are filled when they believed and or were baptized.
> 
> Scripturally, God`s conviction brings repentance (they were pricked when they heard this). Their heart may be awakening from the dead but according to scripture some were baptized unto repentance, rebaptized in Jesus name. They all had believed. None had been filled. Scripture states after they heard these things, they laid hands on them and then they were filled. That points to salvation comes with the infilling of the Holy Ghost.


Yes, our hearts must be awakened, and we must repent (agree with God) of our sinful nature, but _repentance is not salvation. _It is a part of the process, so to speak, but salvation comes when we trust Christ as Savior and then we are filled with the Spirit. The men in Acts 19 were rebaptized because they had not trusted in(believed in) Christ and received the Spirit. The infilling of the Spirit comes with salvation and doesn't require the laying on of hands. It was done that way in the early chapters of Acts so that there could be no doubt among the Jewish Christians about what had happened with the Samaritans and the Gentiles. See Acts11.

Now as the duke said "We're burning daylight" and it's getting hotter by the minute. I.ve got to get up from and go get started outside.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 5, 2022)

DIVISONS OF THE BIBLE 

(King James Version). There are two main divisions The Old Testament made up of thirty-nine books and the New Testament made up of twenty-seven books. Each Testament is divided into five main divisions. _The Old Testament is divided_ into the Pentateuch or five books of Moses--Genesis through Deuteronomy, twelve historical books--Joshua through Esther, five poetical books--Job through the Song of Solomon, five books of the Major Prophets--Isaiah through Daniel, and twelve books of the Minor Prophets--Hosea through Malachi. _The New Testament_ is divided into four Gospels--Matthew through John, the historical book--Acts, the fourteen Pauline Epistles--Romans through Hebrews, the seven General Epistles--James through Jude, and the prophetical book--Revelation.


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## Spotlite (Aug 5, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Yes, our hearts must be awakened, and we must repent (agree with God) of our sinful nature, but _repentance is not salvation. _It is a part of the process, so to speak, but salvation comes when we trust Christ as Savior and then we are filled with the Spirit. The men in Acts 19 were rebaptized because they had not trusted in(believed in) Christ and received the Spirit. The infilling of the Spirit comes with salvation and doesn't require the laying on of hands. It was done that way in the early chapters of Acts so that there could be no doubt among the Jewish Christians about what had happened with the Samaritans and the Gentiles. See Acts11.
> 
> Now as the duke said "We're burning daylight" and it's getting hotter by the minute. I.ve got to get up from and go get started outside.


I would agree, repentance is not salvation, it is part of the process. And, salvation is when God fills you with His spirit.

I’d agree that laying on of hands was used to show, indicate, etc. But I feel it was also used to show those that believed and had not received, or those that had been baptized unto repentance that there was more for them that God wants them to have.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 5, 2022)

*THE APOCRYPHAL BOOKS*

In some large family Bibles there is a section of fourteen books called the Apocrypha, a group of spurious books that were rejected from our present canon of Scripture because.

They did not pass the tests required of inspired books.

They were not written or approved by a prophet.

They were not recognized by the Jews as inspired as a part of Scripture.

They were not recognized or even quoted by Christ and the Apostles, a fact more striking as Paul quotes twice from heathen poets.

The last Old Testament prophet predicted the next messenger to come to Israel from God would be the forerunner of Christ (Mal. 3:1). Most of these books were written during this period between Malachi and Christ.

Divine authority is not claimed by their authors, and by some it is virtually disowned (2 Macc. 2:23; 15:38).

They contain statements at variance with the Bible history.

They are self-contradictory and opposed to doctrines of Scripture.

Josephus did not regard them as Scripture. He lived at the time of the apostles and stated that the present books of the Old Testament which are our version are the only inspired books (see Josephus, Book I, section 8).

They were not a part of the ancient versions of Scripture.

They were the first added after 300 A.D. The Laodicean Council in 363 A. D. rejecting them as being not inspired, thus proving by that time some were claiming inspiration for them. They first appeared in the Vatican Version of the fourth century. At the Council of Trent in 1546 A. D., THE CATHOLICS ACCEPTED SIX OF THESE BOOKS AS INSPIRED AND ADDED THEM TO THEIR MODREN VERSIONS OF SCRIPTURE. They are the Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, Tobit, Judith, and I and 2 Maccabees.

Philo and others did not regard them as inspired.

The lack of prophetic element in them, and apparent imitation of other books of the Old Testament that are inspired.

Too free use of imagination, giving rise to silly stores, and the lack of spiritual force and power.


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 5, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> *THE APOCRYPHAL BOOKS*
> 
> In some large family Bibles there is a section of fourteen books called the Apocrypha, a group of spurious books that were rejected from our present canon of Scripture because.
> 
> ...



Your mind is as closed as a barn door slammed shut. You do know those books were part of the Jewish Old Testament?

I appreciate that others discuss so that I might learn their perspective on faith though may not be my own.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 5, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Your mind is as closed as a barn door slammed shut. You do know those books were part of the Jewish Old Testament?
> 
> I appreciate that others discuss so that I might learn their perspective on faith though may not be my own.



Ok God!


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 5, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Ok God!



Now it insults, you have a good day sir.


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## Spotlite (Aug 5, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> You do know those books were part of the Jewish Old Testament?


I’ve read this scripture many times and yesterday it stumped me for a minute because my initial thought was “what scriptures”, then I remembered the OD Books that were already written. 

“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.”


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I’ve read this scripture many times and yesterday it stumped me for a minute because my initial thought was “what scriptures”, then I remembered the OD Books that were already written.
> 
> “Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.”



Their not canonical or used to set doctrine in my faith. Used to supplement other reading.


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## tell sackett (Aug 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I’ve read this scripture many times and yesterday it stumped me for a minute because my initial thought was “what scriptures”, then I remembered the OD Books that were already written.
> 
> “Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.”


Which book was the Ethiopian reading?


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## Spotlite (Aug 5, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Which book was the Ethiopian reading?


It doesn’t say. The scripture came from Acts 8:35.


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## tell sackett (Aug 5, 2022)

Back up just a few verses


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## Spotlite (Aug 5, 2022)

tell sackett said:


> Back up just a few verses


I guess it did say 

Sometimes I read way too fast lol


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## tell sackett (Aug 5, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I guess it did say
> 
> Sometimes I read way too fast lol


Don’t feel like the lone stranger


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> *THE APOCRYPHAL BOOKS*
> 
> In some large family Bibles there is a section of fourteen books called the Apocrypha, a group of spurious books that were rejected from our present canon of Scripture because.
> 
> ...


Speaking of which, didn't your Church add a whole new collection of books that were never quoted by Christ and the Apostles?


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 5, 2022)

Then the Didache

Some of the oldest writings providing insight to the early church.


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## Madman (Aug 5, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Now it insults, you have a good day sir.


Ruger,  I have learned once you challenge an “individual” belief it either gets quiet, or it get ugly.  Stick with Holy Scripture and tradition, you are always safe.


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## Madman (Aug 5, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Their not canonical or used to set doctrine in my faith. Used to supplement other reading.


It is easier for some to read and set their theology on a John MacArther book then an ancient Church writing like the Didache.


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## brutally honest (Aug 5, 2022)

Madman said:


> It is easier for some to read and set their theology on a John MacArther book then an ancient Church writing like the Didache.



Most Christian bookstores are wastelands.  Outside of Bibles and reference books, they have very little to offer, IMO.


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 6, 2022)

Madman said:


> Ruger,  I have learned once you challenge an “individual” belief it either gets quiet, or it get ugly.  Stick with Holy Scripture and tradition, you are always safe.





Madman said:


> It is easier for some to read and set their theology on a John MacArther book then an ancient Church writing like the Didache.



I enjoy reading and learning. Even when I don’t agree with the person it gives me insight to the doctrine of their faith. We are taught to respect one another in the discourse.

Peter

“But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.”

The ancient writings give insight to how how early Christian’s lived and how the first churches functioned.


There was a lengthy discourse on baptism,

Is the Pastor that uses the river wrong?
Is the Pastor that uses a tub in the sanctuary wrong?
is the Pastor that uses a fount wrong?

That old Greek wrote down the Apostles instructions to the early church. Reading rightfully brings the focus to regardless of method we celebrate another has entered God’s church, God is great!

Didache

And concerning baptism,  baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 6, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Speaking of which, didn't your Church add a whole new collection of books that were never quoted by Christ and the Apostles?


Wrong.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 6, 2022)

*THE BIBLE AN INSPIRED REVELATION FROM GOD*

Christianity claims to be a revealed religion. The record of that revelation is contained in the sacred Scripture.

REASONS MAN EXPECTED A REVELATIO FROM GOD. Man's intellectual and moral nature requires a revelation from God. Such will help him preserve and insure the moral and spiritual progress he needs to attain and the higher nature that he cannot hope to reach unaided. There is with man's moral makeup and intuition, a reason, and a hunger for the supernatural and the knowledge of things unrevealed. And as nothing in nature exists without a purpose, these natural cravings must be satisfied. The only way these natural desires of man can be met is by means of a supernatural revelation and manifestation, leading man to the desired end of his creative makeup. Thus, only a revelation of things to come beyond this life, can fully satisfy the natural demands of man's nature.

All history testifies to the fact that in those nations where the Bible revelation is not known, there is a very low standard of living. because of such imperfect knowledge man's actual condition has been that of moral depravity, and utter helplessness to cope with the evil forces and the higher demands of nature.


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 6, 2022)

Israel said:


> I see the Didache quoted...is it claimed inspired by some of the readers?



It’s included in the New Testament of some faiths but not mine.

Another name for it is *The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations.*


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## Ruger#3 (Aug 7, 2022)

Question……

The reformation is modern history on the scale of historical things. What went on is well documented and the outcome profound. Bibles were previously hand written, copying from ancient scrolls, the books. These Bibles were a combination of Greek and Hebrew.

Luther translated these into German, specifically casual German, to be understood by a wider audience. What gets posted here is an English translation of a German translation of Greek and Hebrew source documents.

Was Luther inspired?


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## brutally honest (Aug 7, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Was Luther inspired?



Nope.  I've never heard anybody claim that he was.  I've never heard anyone claim that _any_ translator was inspired.  (although some KJV-only people come close.)


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## formula1 (Aug 7, 2022)

The Bible I generally quote from is the English Standard version (ESV). It in fact was translated from recently published editions of the original Hebrew and Greek texts. I personally think it is one of the best but that just an opinion. It was not translated from other translations.


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## RegularJoe (Aug 8, 2022)

The New American Standard ("NAS"), the New International Version ("NIV"), The English Standard Version ("ESV"), etc., etc., etc., have not been derived thru Martin Luther.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 8, 2022)

What we know of God through nature gives us grounds to know that this lack in human life has been met by a supernatural revelation to supply this need. It is only right to believe that since God made man a moral and spiritual being, for spiritual ends, He also supplied the means to attain these ends. It is not natural or reasonable from any standpoint to believe that the Creator would leave His creation in such an imperfect state by creating within man this longing for the unknow, without meeting his needs with divine supply. At the same time, both conscience and reason affirm that man is a sinner and merits condemnation. But He cannot from reason alone know that God will be merciful and save him. His doubts can be removed only by God's own to him. This requires a divine revelation.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 8, 2022)

*WHAT MAN MAY EXPECT OF A DIVINE REVELATION*

Not only should man expect a revelation, but he may expect that a divine revelation would be in prefect harmony with and supplementary to nature. Those who are in any sense honest and rational concerning such proof my expect a revelation that is beyond all doubt from a supernatural source. They may expect this revelation to come through chosen vessels and preserved by divine power through the ages. They may further except it to be attested by miraculous works, and prophetical utterances that have been fulfilled to the letter. All this is true of the Bible.


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## kmh1031 (Aug 15, 2022)

Solomon’s wisdom was god given due to his humility. U can read the account and see why he was given wisdom because of what he asked god for .. instead of riches.

But Jesus was using a similar example.. the educated and so called “biblically” informed can be very haughty, and lack humility to learn new things or.. the actual truths of the Bible… where by “babes” or children are humble.. and are eager to learn and have the right attitude…


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 16, 2022)

THE MEANING OF REVELATION.

The word revelation is from the Greek apokalupsis, meaning to UNVEIL, REVEAL, and UNCOVER, or the LIFING UP A CURTAIN so that all may see alike what was previously veiled. There can be no excuse for different interpretations of the revelation of God of things that can be seen alike all, if all will look at the same thing in the same way.

The revelation of God is simply the UNVEILING OF FACTS AND TRUTHS which man could not know of himself, but which are divinely revealed by the Spirit of God. About the fifth of the Bible is prophecy which requires a revelation. Then there are many other parts of the Bible as creation, Lucifer's reign, God's plan and many things that had to be revealed before man could possibly know the facts about them. The history of the Bible did not have to be revealed, but it is as much inspired as the revealed part. Inspiration simply guarantees the true recording of facts as they happened or as they are going to happen. The method of disclosure and the truth disclosed are alike called revelation (Eph. 3:3; Col. 1:26; Rev. 1:1; Rom. 16:25).


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 21, 2022)

THE MEANING OF INSPIRATION

The Greek _theopneustos_ literally means _God-breathed._ It is that special influence or power of the Holy Spirit upon the minds and in the lives of holy men, which qualified and enabled them to make an infallible record of divine truth concerning the will of God to man. Paul said, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God [is God-breathed] and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction, in righteousness; that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Tim. 3:15-17). Peter said, "God hath spoken by the mouths of all his holy prophets since the world began" and that, "holy men of God spake as they were moved [borne along] by the Holy Ghost" (Acts 3:21; 2 Pet. 1:21).

THE PURPOSE OF INSPIRATION 

Is to secure truth and unity in record and not conformity or sameness of statement. Inspiration has accomplished this beyond human comprehension.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 22, 2022)

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REVELATION AND INSPIRATION

Revelation discovers new truth while inspiration superintends the communicating and recording of that truth. We have examples of inspiration without revelation (Lk. 1:1-4), of inspiration including revelation (Rev. 1:1, 11), of inspiration without illumination (1 Pet. 1:11; 1 Cor. 2:12-16; 14:30).

We find lies of Satan and men, we find false statements, and we find murders, adulteries and many sins recorded in Scripture. Inspiration simply records the truth of what was said or done, and guarantees to us that Satan did lie, that what is written is actually what he said, but it does not change the lie to truth. Inspiration records sins of men, but it does not sanction those sins as the will of God. The learner of Scripture must keep in mind the difference between what Satan and men say, and what God actually says. God is responsible only for what He says, and what He inspires men to say. He is not responsible for what others say. All He is responsible for is the true record of what men and demons have said and done.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 23, 2022)

WHAT DEGREE WERE THE WRITERS OF THE BIBLE INSPIRED?

Some words were the exact words of God (Ex. 32:16; Duet. 5:4, 24; Matt. 3:17; 17:5; Jn. 12:28), some words were put into the mouths of the speakers who spoke as the Spirit inspired them (Ex. 23:5; Num. 23:5; Ezek. 2:7; 3:10, 11; Acts 3:21), and some words were written as the writers were moved by the Spirit (Ex. 34:17; 2 Pet. 1:21; Rev. 1:11). In other parts of Scripture, the speakers and writers were inspired to choose their own words in revealing divine truth, saying things that were later recorded by the Spirit through men (Dan. 12:8, 9; Jn. 20:30, 31; Lk. 1:1-4; Acts 1:1, 2). Regardless of the way the various passages were recorded it was by a full and plenary inspiration, that is all of the Bible was inspired of God.

The Spirit used attention, reason, investigation, memory, logic, and all faculties of the writers and speakers, in speaking and writing the divine record of things past, present, and future. He guided them to choose the material of others, spoken and written, such as imperial decrees, genealogies, letters, historical records, and whatever was necessary for the recording of truth. The Spirit worked in and through their own spirits and preserved their individualities in their writings. The Bible is in truth the very Word of God in human language, and it should be understood on the same basis that we do other books in human language.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 25, 2022)

Proof of Revelation and Inspiration

ITS WONDERFUL UNITY. Over forty different authors wrote the sixty-six books of the Bible during a period of over 1,800 years, and they all had one theme the creation and redemption of the human race by God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

The books of the Bible were written by men from all walks of life such as kings, priests, judges, lawyers, princes, shepherds, soldiers, courtiers, statesmen, musicians, inventors, singers, poets, preachers, prophets, fishermen, farmers, tentmakers, publicans, physicians, rich men and poor men. They were written in various lands of three continents-Europe, Asia, and Africa. They were written in different ages and by many men, some who never saw each other or knew what the others wrote on the same subjects, yet when their writings became one book, there is not one contradiction among them.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 26, 2022)

Its superiority to other books. There is an abundance of evidence that the Bible is superior to all other books. It is not like any other book in its claims, in its message, in its moral tone, in its insight into the future, and in its words of peace and comfort and hope to all men. It is different because of its insight into human nature and into all things of life here and hereafter.
It is the outstanding book among millions of books. It in a class by itself. Other books can be classified as to their subject matter, message, and style. But this is not so with the Bible. It does not fit into human classification of books. Its unique origin, its message, and its wonderful structure all prove its superiority.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 28, 2022)

When the book of a modern writer is translated into a few languages, the author is as proud as a peacock. The Bible has been translated into 1,086 languages and dialects and new translations are being made every year. There are twelve editions of it alone for the blind. It is the most modern book of all ages, and all other books are hopelessly outclassed when compared with the Bible.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 29, 2022)

From the standpoint of literature and truth the Bible is a recognized authority on the affairs of daily life as well as of things in the next life. It has no equal. Millions of men of all ages have lived and died by its teachings. No such trust can be placed in any other book. Religions, secret orders, and practically every kind of human doctrine claim to be based upon the Bible. It is the simplest book to understand and yet it needs constant study. Even the no-believer feels he is uneducated without a knowledge of its teachings. The more one reads, the more he realizes he is far short of mastering its contents. There are always new discoveries of truth in the Bible. It is always new to those who read it most. This is not so with other books. When they are read a time or two, their contents are mastered, and the subject matter becomes _old and _uninteresting. All this proves the divine origin of the Bible.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 30, 2022)

Its Influence in the world. No book has had an influence on the world like the Bible. It has been and still is as high as the heavens above the Earth in comparison with other books. Inlands where the Bible is unknown, this fact is plainly evident. While the Bible has made modern civilization man's present trend of rejecting the Bible, if it continues, will destroy such civilization. Without the Bible men would be in dense spiritual and moral darkness, and in mental ignorance believing pagan superstition, Millions of lives have been enlightened and changed in every generation by its teachings, thus proving that its superior influence must be of divine origin.


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## Banjo Picker (Aug 31, 2022)

The character of those who accept it proves the Bible to be inspired of God. Those who grow in holiness and consecration to the highest good of others, accept it as from God and cherish it more and more. Only infidels, skeptics, moral and spiritual rebels, and human wrecks of all kinds are the ones who refuse to accept its inspiration. Naturally, they reject it because it condemns all their activities and promises punishment in the end.


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## Banjo Picker (Sep 1, 2022)

The greatness of those who accept it as a revelation from God, proves that it is more than an ordinary human product. Some men argue that the Bible its religion is accepted only by the weak, the young, and the ignorant, and that its campions outside the pulpit are few and far between.
This is one of the greatest errors in the camp of infidels and shows wilful prejudice or superficial knowledge of the question. The greatest thinkers and representative men of all ages have openly confessed their faith in Christianity and the Bible. The wise men of the world, who have been best qualified to detect error and imposture, have laid at the feet of Christ their homage, and confessed that the Bible is the Word of God.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 1, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> The greatness of those who accept it as a revelation from God, proves that it is more than an ordinary human product. Some men argue that the Bible its religion is accepted only by the weak, the young, and the ignorant, and that its campions outside the pulpit are few and far between.
> This is one of the greatest errors in the camp of infidels and shows wilful prejudice or superficial knowledge of the question. The greatest thinkers and representative men of all ages have openly confessed their faith in Christianity and the Bible. The wise men of the world, who have been best qualified to detect error and imposture, have laid at the feet of Christ their homage, and confessed that the Bible is the Word of God.


???

The "greatness" of those who accept the bible as a revelation from God prove it is not an ordinary human product? The "greatness" of a some group of human beings proves that the bible is not an ordinary human product? Great people, their greatness, prove the bible is no ordinary human product? Really?

I'm sorry but some of the greatest thinkers and representative of men of all ages were not aware of the bible or disregarded it as fable.

The best qualified to detect error and imposture for having been Christians reduces the remainder of humanity as what exactly... Least qualified, less witted and...??? Your prejudice might not be willful, but by the bar you judge... you are judged. Using the bible in this way is always strange to me. I have the bible and you don't  and so your not so great and can't be and you're less of a human being that I am.???


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## Banjo Picker (Sep 1, 2022)

Man could not have written the Bible if he would, nor would he have written it if he could. If any man questions this statement, let him write a book one billionth as good as the Bible. History does not record a single instance where a critic of the Bible ever tried to improve it.

Good men must have written the bible. The writers claimed to be inspired of God. They either were inspired, or they are liars. If they were lairs, then bad men must have written it, and such is contrary to every known human trait. The Bible condemns all sin, and this no evil man would. Some of the Bible writers recorded their own sins which brought them into disgrace. No man would so expose himself unless divine power moved him so that others might profit. Only a good man would submit to such a revelation of his own life, so good men must have written it. If good men wrote it and said they were moved by the inspiration of God, then the Bible is an inspired book.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 1, 2022)

Israel said:


> Some gods need more support than is true.




The antichrist empires have long tentacles that span the *millenniums.*

The bible was written by man ( many different people )from many different times.

Banjo I hope you are inspired of God and I have exposed my sins here-- so I guess I'm in good company according to your standards.

Yes the bible  was written and edited by inspired people. It is a testament not of inspired people only but of the object of their inspiration and so life from their spiritual lenses. The ground zero that links time past and future together is the God of Abraham.


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## Banjo Picker (Sep 1, 2022)

All man's needs are met by the Bible. This has been true of all ages. Every promise in God's Word has been fulfilled in the lives of men who have met the conditions, so it must be from God who fulfills these promises. 

The preservation of the Bible through the ages proves its inspiration. No other book has ever gone through the conflicts such as the Bible has. Whole kingdoms and religions have tried to destroy the Bible, but it has weathered every storm, and it still exists long after its enemies have passed off the scene of action. Voltaire, over one hundred years ago, said, "The Bible in one hundred years will be a thing of the past." Nevertheless, today in the same house where Voltaire lived and made this statement there are thousands of Bibles stacked, and from that house many thousands of Bibles are distributed annually. Most books written a few hundred years ago have been destroyed and forgotten, but the Bible has come down to us from thousands of years and it becomes known more and more the world over as time goes by.

The Heavenly character of its contents proves the Bible to be a revelation from God. The Bible is full of heavenly truths that could never have been known except by revelation.


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## Banjo Picker (Sep 4, 2022)

The response of the soul to the Bible proves its source. The author of the Bible and the creator of the soul are the same person. The Bible is perfectly adapted to the soul. It shows complete acquaintance with the soul. It was made for all parts of man's nature. The law and the epistles are for man's reason, the psalms and gospel for the affections, and the prophecies and revelations of the wonders of God for the imagination. The Bible judges the soul by contradicting its passions, revealing its guilt, and humbling its pride and vanity. No mere human product could or would look down upon and condemn that nature. The Bible meets the deepest needs of the soul by solving its problems and presenting a way out of its slavery to sin and Satan.


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## Banjo Picker (Sep 8, 2022)

The infinite depth and lofty ideals of the Bible prove a divine author. The Bible is inexhaustible and infinite in its coverage of truth, for this life and the one yet to come. Men have found it to be practical in serving every common purpose and meeting every requirement. It is universal in its appeal, reasonable in its teachings, reliable in its promises, durable in its conflicts, everlasting in its usefulness, new and modern in its statements, indispensable to human civilization, indisputable in its authority, interesting in its histories, colorful in its biographies, accurate in its prophecies, individual in its massages, far reaching in its visions, complete in its laws, comprehensive in its knowledge, infinite in its details, unselfish in its purpose, simple in its application, just in its demands, righteous in its judgments, clear in its applications, and masterful in its wisdom.


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## Banjo Picker (Sep 9, 2022)

No activity is ignored in its pages. In matters of government the home in fact in every sphere it is unequaled for wisdom and instruction. Nothing can be added or taken away. It gives instruction to the lawmakers and gives counsel to the magistrate. It cautions the witness, requires and impartial verdict of a jury, and furnishes the judge with the sentence. It tells the wife how to manage the home, and the husband how to rule the household. It instructs in matters of courtship and wedded life. It entails honor to parents and enjoins obedience to children. It prescribes and limits the power of a sovereign and master, and commands subjects and servants to obey. It gives directions for weddings and burials. It promises food and raiment and limits the use of both. It unveils the destiny of the dying and instructs and comforts the bereaved. It defends the rights of all and reveals vengeance to every oppressor.

It is the first book, the best book, and the oldest book in the world. It contains the choicest matter, gives the best instructions, and affords the greatest pleasure and satisfaction that ever was enjoyed. It contains the best laws, the most profound revealed mysteries, that have ever been penned. It exhibits life and immortality and shows the way to glory. It is a recital of all the past and a certain prediction of all that is to come. It settles all matters of debate, makes the wise foolish and the foolish wise, and detects all lies and confutes all errors.


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## Banjo Picker (Sep 29, 2022)

It is the most compendious Book in the world the most authentic and genuine, and the most entertaining that was ever published. It contains the most ancient antiquities, the most strange events, the most wonderful stories of love, biography, history, wars heroic deeds, and infernal worlds, and the origin of the universe, angelic myriads, human tribes, devilish legions, and innumerable living creatures.

It instructs the most accomplished mechanic, politician, scientist, historian, rhetorician, mathematician, and the most learned professional in any subject. It puzzles the wisest critic, corrects the vain philosopher, confutes the wise astrologer, exposes the subtle sophistic, and rebukes the vain and sinful. It is a complete code of laws, a prefect body of divine truth, an unequaled narrative, and the only written revelation of God to man. To understand it is to be wise. To be ignorant of it is to be destitute of divine wisdom.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 4, 2022)

FULFILLED PROPHECY PROVES THE INSPIRATION OF SCRIPTURE. 
This is an indisputable proof, for there are hundreds of prophecies spoken centuries before fulfillment which include all human possibility of fulfillment. They are in such infinite detail as to be beyond all human power to predict. There are 333 prophecies fulfilled in the life of Christ. Hundreds have been fulfilled in the rise and fall of nations and numerous other events. There are many now being fulfilled and are yet to be fulfilled. About 3,268 verses of the Bible prophecies of thousands of details have been fulfilled. There are 3,140 verses that are being fulfilled and will yet be fulfilled. Not one detail of any prediction that should have been fulfilled up to 1948 has ever failed. Those that have not been fulfilled will be in due time. Only God foretell such future events, thus proving the Bible to be a revelation of God by inspiration.

According to the law of simple and compound probability, the 333 prophecies of Christ could have only one chance in one and ninety-seven ciphers of fulfillment. Men today who make prediction of events a few days ahead based upon present trend of things do not claim to be more than about 80 per cent correct. Many men can guess like this, but no man can predict things hundreds and thousands of years ahead, as did God, without having one failure of any single detail of prediction. Yet this is true of Bible prophecies. No sane man will dare attempt trying a whole lifetime to do so. So, we can rest assured that the Bible is God's Word.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 8, 2022)

MIRACLES ALSO PROVE THE DIVINE REVELATION OF THE BIBLE.

Hundreds of miracles are recorded in Scripture which only God could have brought about. Millions of men have been healed of diseases and saved from sin through the centuries by obedience to the Word of God. This cannot be said of any other book. Any man today can prove this claim in his own life if he will put the Bible to a test. No man can have any right to unbelief until he has done this.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 13, 2022)

TESTIMONY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT TO THE INSPIRATION OFTHE OLD TESTAMENT

Jesus has been proved to be, not only a credible witness, but a messenger from God. In all His teachings He referred to the divine authority of the Old Testament (Mt. 5:17, 18; 8:17; 12:40, 42; Lk. 4:18-21; 10:25-28; 15:29-31; 17:32; 24:25-45; Jn. 5:39-47). He quoted the Old Testament seventy-eight times, the Pentateuch alone twenty-six times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as "The Scripture," "the word of God," and "the wisdom of God." The apostles quoted 209 times from the Old Testament and considered it "the oracles of God." The Old Testament in hundreds of places predicted the events of the New Testament and as the New Testament is the fulfillment of and testifies to the genuineness and authenticity of the Old Testament, both Testaments must be considered together as the Word of God.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 16, 2022)

THE CLAIMS OF THE BIBLE AND ITS WRITERS PROVE ITS INSPIRATION.

The Bible claims a supernatural origin. The writers of the Bible were credible witnesses. They possessed actual knowledge of the facts they relate and of the revelations they received from God. They were capable, competent, honest, reliable, and unselfish, and no man has ever been able to discredit one thing they said. Many times, their very lives and worldly interests were imperiled because of their testimony, and no man is going to go through this without being upheld by a higher power.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 24, 2022)

Over 3,808 times such expressions as "thus saith the Lord," "The Lord spake," "the Word of the Lord came unto me," are found. These writers lied this many times and more if they did not tell the truth. [see point above Good, men must have written the bible] These writers claimed what they wrote was from God (Ex. 20:1; 24:4; 35:1; 2 Sam. 23:2). They claimed that all the Bible was inspired (2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:21).


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## Madman (Oct 25, 2022)

This is an interesting topic.  When Holy Scripture speaks of Scripture, what does it mean?


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 25, 2022)

The Bible itself claims to be the Word of God (Deut. 8:3; Heb. 4:12). It claims life-giving qualities (Jn. 6:63; 8:31, 32; 1 Pet. 1:23; 2 Pet. 1:4; Mt. 4:4; Ps. 1; Rom. 1:16). Many are its claims along every line, and not once have its enemies disproved one of them. On the other hand, millions of men through the ages have proved its claims when its conditions were met.


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## Ruger#3 (Oct 25, 2022)

Got something to prove this…..

It is the first book, the best book, and the oldest book in the world.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 25, 2022)

ITS PERFECTION.

The perfection of the Bible proves its inspiration. There never was or never will be another perfect book, which meets so perfectly all the needs of human race, not only in this life but in that which is to come. It claims perfection (Ps. 19:7; Jas. 1:25). Not one flaw has ever been found in the original writings of the authors of the Bible. In fact, the many thousands of copies of the originals are so perfect that they prove the perfection of the originals. No one important omission can be found in comparing all these copies and versions of the Bible. There are over 800,000 different renderings of the Bible, and they all contain the same important truths.


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## Banjo Picker (Nov 4, 2022)

*THE BIBLE IS SCIENTIFICALLY CORRECT*

Modern telescopes have disproved every theory on the astronomy of the past, but not one statement in the Bible on astronomy has been disproved. Astronomers admit that such telescopes tell the same story that the Bible does. This discovery has silenced critics of the Bible in this field. The story of creation is in prefect harmony with geology. Geologists of Yale, Princeton, Harvard, and other universities agree to this fact. One says, "creation as given in Genesis is faultless"; and another says, "The more the leaves of the book of the earth are turned, the more they show the Old Book, the Bible is true." Over 250 plants are mentioned in the Old Testament alone. Botanists claim the Bible flawless botanically. Many facts stated about animals, birds, insects, music, law, art, architecture, and many other known subjects of study have all been proved true as man scientifically studies these things. Mysteries of the human body, the soul, the spirit, the things in the natural world, such as rain, water, currents, winds, evaporation, clouds, thunder, lightning, and many other natural phenomena have been recorded in the Bible for thousands of years. Man is just now learning the true facts about these phenomena. In other words, it has taken man many centuries to discover what the Bible has stated for millenniums. Where did the writers of the Bible get this information? Why did they know these things centuries before modern man, since modern man claims to be so far ahead of men in the Bible? The answer is revelation and inspiration.


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## Banjo Picker (Nov 8, 2022)

*THE BIBLE IS HISTORICALLY CORRECT*

Man-made histories more than a generation old are full of mistakes and misstatements. not so with the Bible despite its records dating back thousands of years. Hundreds of places spoken of in the Bible have been definitely located by geographers, and explorers. Hundreds of statements in the Bible, which in times past have been held untrue by enemies of the Bible, have recently been proved true by archeologists. The deeper the archeological spade goes, the higher the biblical statements go up.


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## Banjo Picker (Nov 19, 2022)

*IT'S UNIVERSAL ADAPTABILITY FOR ALL AGES AND PEOPLES*

Books on all above subjects are constantly being discarded because they are out of date. Not so with the Bible. It is always up to date on any of these subjects. It is the book for all ages and peoples, and it is ever new and fresh in its lessons and values to man. Wherever it goes it lifts men up to a higher plane of life. Its doctrines, precepts, promises, and its moral and spiritual tone are the world's greatest inspiration.


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## Banjo Picker (Nov 22, 2022)

*THE SPIRITUAL POWER OF THE BIBLE*

The soul of man longs for the truths of God as recorded in the Bible, which meet and satisfy all spiritual needs. The Book is just what one should expect of a heavenly Father to point the way of salvation and provide help in every life struggle. No one question of importance can be asked about man's life here or hereafter but what is fully satisfactorily answered by the Bible. It is a chart of the sea of life. It is the great inspirer and guide in prayer and points the way direct relations with God. Man's soul thus finds what it craves--fellowship with God. It answers the longing for immortality and assures eternal life to all who submit to God. It holds out a future as big as the universe. It must be divine.


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## Banjo Picker (Nov 26, 2022)

TWENTY CENTURIES HAVE NOT IMPOVED IT.
Enemies of the Bible have made claims that the Bible can be improved upon, but none of them have ever tried to prove such claims except in talk, and talk is very cheap. If man had written the Bible in the first place he certainly could make a better one today, since he claims to be far superior to the original writers of the Bible. It is too much to expect of the modern superiors of the Bible authors? Until man makes a better book or one a billionth as good as the Bible, common sense requires him to lay aside all criticism of something better than he can produce. All books written and rewritten by man without inspiration can and are constantly being improved. Even men who are not authors of these books can improve upon them. Why can't they do this with the Bible? Why do not other books stand the criticism of the Bible? All this proves that the Bible must be of divine origin.


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## hopper (Nov 27, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> The Bible, or God's Words of Scripture, is very simple to understand. No man has any excuse for misunderstanding it. Jesus constantly invited and provoked study of the Scriptures and even rebuked men for their lack of knowledge of revealed truth. He attributed all error to a lack of knowledge of the Bible. He answered His critics by saying, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God" (Mt. 22:29). He commanded men to "Search the scriptures; for in them ye THINK ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (Jn. 5:39).
> 
> After more than three years of the most, simple teaching by the greatest of all teachers, the disciples had to be rebuked for their unbelief and hardness of heart. This was not because they could not understand but because they did not believe what Christ said. He said to them, "O fools, and _slow of heart to believe _all that the prophets have spoken" (Lk. 24:25-27). Even after Christ had appeared and manifested Himself to them in various ways, they still refused to believe until He unbraided them _for their unbelief _and hardness of heart (Mk. 16:13, 14). The words Christ spoke were always simple enough to understand, but to _believe them _was another thing. You too may have a struggle at first, to really realize the benefits promise you, according to the Bible. You should begin now to believe the promises of the more abundant life and expect these benefits. You should begin to believe the good news that these blessings are for you and begin to appropriate them now.


If so simple to understand why do so many interpret verses differently. My Wife,Daughter and Myself will read the bi le together then all discuss what it meant, sometimes with 3 different points of view


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2022)

Plus there would not have to of been two different councils of men voting on what it said. 
And with that being said a bunch of different denominations based on what each one believes what the Bible says.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> TWENTY CENTURIES HAVE NOT IMPOVED IT.
> Enemies of the Bible have made claims that the Bible can be improved upon, but none of them have ever tried to prove such claims except in talk, and talk is very cheap. If man had written the Bible in the first place he certainly could make a better one today, since he claims to be far superior to the original writers of the Bible. It is too much to expect of the modern superiors of the Bible authors? Until man makes a better book or one a billionth as good as the Bible, common sense requires him to lay aside all criticism of something better than he can produce. All books written and rewritten by man without inspiration can and are constantly being improved. Even men who are not authors of these books can improve upon them. Why can't they do this with the Bible? Why do not other books stand the criticism of the Bible? All this proves that the Bible must be of divine origin.


From what I recall, it was God writing through the ancient prophets. Some of these were prophets of another testament of Jesus Christ.


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## Banjo Picker (Nov 29, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> And with that being said a bunch of different denominations based on what each one believes what the Bible says.


Rev. 2:1 unto the angel of church of Ephesus:
Rev. 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna:
Rev. 2:12 And unto the angel of the church in Pergamos:
Rev. 2:18 And unto the angel of church in Thyatira:
Rev. 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis:
Rev. 3:7 And unto the angel of the church in Philadelphia:
Rev. 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans:

do you see any differences in these churches as for denominations?

These churches all believe the same word without denomination.  We have about any denomination in the world today, but it should not be, but it is because every time someone in church don't believe or like the true word of God or what is being preach to them, they get mad and say well I will just go and start my own church. Like we have more churches today with pastors that have been married twice elected in them because they have love, ones as members of the church in them that have been married twice. There is just one true Word of God, and there is just one church sure there are many good people in every church but there are, but one foe and other sheep must come into the one foe.

Matt. 16 :18 And I say also unto thee. That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church: and the gates of He11 shall not prevail against it.  Only one church, the body of Christ made up of all born-again believers (1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 2:20-22; 4:13; Acts 15:13-18).


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## Banjo Picker (Nov 29, 2022)

THE DOCTRINES OF THE BIBLE ARE CONTRARY TO ALL HUMAN TEACHINGS.
It is the strangest book and has the strangest teachings. Its ideal and the method of approach to that ideal are wholly unlike those of any human book. The teaching of the Bible of getting life through death, self-exaltation through self-abasement, salvation through grace and not of works, and many other teachings are supernatural and unlike human teachings. The way of the Bible to become great is by being a servant of all, not through lording it over all and making all servants to self as is the human way. When one is nothing from the standpoint of the Bible, he is somebody, and when he is somebody, he is nothing. When one loses his life, he finds it and finds his life he loses it. The way up is down. So, it continues with practically all principles and ways of life according to the Bible. This is why a complete change must be made in every man who consecrates himself to obey the Bible.
 God's way of worship was not man's way, as proved by Cain and Abel. Man's way of improvement in life is not God's way. Man goes at it by self-effort and human culture, while God demands a new creature and complete abandonment of self-effort and works. He requires entire dependence upon God and His working in the life. For this reason, many natural men cannot understand the ways of God. For this reason, many of them refuse God's way, as did Cain. Paul said, "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor. 2:14). No man could have written such things contrary to his natural self, and no man can attain to the principles of the Bible apart from God, so the Bible must be of God.


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## Banjo Picker (Dec 2, 2022)

THE GENUINENESS AND AUTHENTICITY OF THE BIBLE PROVES IT TO BE AN INSPIRED REVELATION FROM GOD.

By genuineness mean that the books were actually written in the age to which they are assigned and by the men whom they are ascribed. By authenticity mean that the Bible relates truthfully the matters of which it treats, and its contents are the same today as written originally. From man's standpoint, the genuineness and authenticity of the Bible rest upon the claims of the Bible itself, the original manuscripts, lectionaries, patristic quotations, ancient and modern versions, archaeology, and secular history.


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## Banjo Picker (Dec 14, 2022)

THE CLAIMS OF THE BIBLE ITSELF

In points above of:
Fulfilled Prophecy Proves The Inspiration Of Scripture True.
Miracles Also Prove The Divine Revelation Of The Bible.
The Testimony Of The New Testament To The Inspiration  Of The Old Testament.
The Claims Of The Bible And Its Writers Prove Its Inspiration.

Fulfilled prophecy, Bible miracles, and the claims of the Bible, all go to prove its revelations and inspiration. If the Scriptures are inspired, they are also genuine. If they are genuine, they are authentic, for genuineness is based upon authenticity.

SECULAR HISTORY

The events described in the New Testament were well known as facts throughout the Roman Empire and have been quoted and referred to as actual events by fifty other authors of the first centuries of the Christian era. The whole fragment of their writings still remain. Jerome, 392 A.D., mentions about fifty others whose writings have perished. These writers belonged to all parts of the world and represent both pagans and Christians. They agree in quoting Scripture as genuine and authentic. They refer to the Bible as a distinct volume, universally received as God's Word. Early versions attest the truth of the Scriptures. Heretics who separated from the main body of believers still held to the fact that the Bible was God's Word and was genuine and true. They different only in doctrines which they supposed the Bible to teach. Even ancient infidels who fought the Bible based their reasoning upon the very facts our present Bible contains, so it must have been in existence then as it is today.


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## Banjo Picker (Dec 25, 2022)

Heathen and Jewish writers confirm the facts of Christ and His followers and the existence of both the Old and the New Testament. Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Juvenal, Pliny and others, 93-117 A. D., all confirm statements of sacred history. There is no event in ancient history that can produce more than a fraction of evidence by which the Bible in its entirety is sustained as genuine and authentic. The Christian has more proof and more right to believe that all the-versions of Scripture had one original than for Americans to believe that all the copies of the Declaration of Independence had one original.
We should not receive the canon of Scripture upon the authority of the Fathers and Church Councils. We should receive them only on the same grounds they received them because we have evidence that they were written by a group of credible and inspired men. The Scriptures are here; as seen in all points above, there is only one way to account for such a book and that is by revelation and inspiration of God. They have power because God is in them.


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## Banjo Picker (Dec 31, 2022)

MANUSCRIPTS.
No original Manuscript of the Bible can be produced because of the fact that they were written thousands of years ago on perishable material, but they do not need to be found in order to prove the genuineness and authenticity of the Bible. After 170 years the original Declaration of Independence shows old age and should it be lost, we could still believe its original contents by the many copies we have of it today. Scholars today are willing to admit as genuine and authentic any writing of the same period if ten or more copies can be found. There are many thousands of copies of the original writings of sacred writers. These writings are in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Syriac, Chaldee, Samaritan, Arabic, Armenian, Egyptian, Ethiopic, Gothic, Persian, Coptic, and many other languages.
Many of these ancient Manuscripts date back to the third and fourth centuries, and a few even before that. New discoveries of new and older Manuscripts are being found constantly. Many thousands of ancient writings (even running into the million) have recently been found in Egypt in a good state of preservation because of the dry climate where papyri (paper) could be best preserved. These are throwing much new light upon the New Testament, but always the light confirms the fact that it was in the beginning as it is today.


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 31, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> We should not receive the canon of Scripture upon the authority of the Fathers and Church Councils. We should receive them only on the same grounds they received them because we have evidence that they were written by a group of credible and inspired men. The Scriptures are here; as seen in all points above, there is only one way to account for such a book and that is by revelation and inspiration of God. They have power because God is in them.


The revisionist in the reformation didn’t agree with you. They tossed out and resequenced much. Revelations was completely disregarded as a frivolous text until the outcry got too loud.


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## Banjo Picker (Dec 31, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> The revisionist in the reformation didn’t agree with you. They tossed out and resequenced much. Revelations was completely disregarded as a frivolous text until the outcry got too loud.


And where is the Bible scripture on what your saying?


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## Banjo Picker (Dec 31, 2022)

Many used to argue that the early Bibles were not like ours, but since many new ones have been found that date even from a time long before Constantine, it is certain that the first ones were like ours of today. Not even one discovery has been made that is opposed to the overwhelming testimony regarding the antiquity of the Bible. About ninety years ago we had only 550 Manuscripts collated by scholars. Thirty years ago, there were 1,700 and today there 4,200 and they all confirm the integrity and purity of the Bible.


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## Banjo Picker (Dec 31, 2022)

LECTIONARIES.
These make another link in the chain of evidence proving the genuineness and authenticity of the Bible. The lectionaries were lessons or portions of Scriptures from the Gospels and Epistles that were read in churches. There 1,000 of the Gospels and 300 of the acts and Epistles known to exist.


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## Banjo Picker (Dec 31, 2022)

THE PATRISTIC QUOTATIONS. 
These are quotations from the early Christian writers. These form a gap between the oldest whole Manuscripts of the third and fourth century back to the time of the apostles. If the New Testament were destroyed all but eleven verses of it could be collected again through the writings of the early church fathers of the first three centuries. These writings may be brought today in ten large volumes called "The Ante-Nicene Fathers." These early writers all quote from both Testaments and agree that they are genuine and authentic. They refer to both Testaments as a distinct volume, universally received as divine, so both of them were in existence in their day. Some of these writers quote the Bible as many as 17,922 times.


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## Banjo Picker (Dec 31, 2022)

THE ANCIENT AND MODERN VERSIONS COMPLETE THE CHAIN OF EVEIDENCE, THAT THE BIBLE IS GENUINE AND AUTHENTIC.
These versions are in many languages, some dating back to the first and second centuries. They are valuable in determining the exact text of the Bible.
Besides these, we are finding today many hundreds of fragments of Scriptures and whole sermons dating back to the first three centuries, in which are quoted many portions of the Old and New Testament. Harmonies of the Gospels, ancient prayers and amulets, Christian hymns and letters, commentaries of certain Scriptures, catalogs of Bible books, and many other forms of evidence of ancient times are now in our hands. So, we can say with a definite assurance that our Bible today is the same as it always has been when holy men of God wrote as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


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## Banjo Picker (Dec 31, 2022)

THE BIBLE MUST BE FROM GOD BECAUSE OF THE INEXHAUSTIBLE PROOFS OF ITS INSPIRATION.
It would take a lifetime to search out and record all the proofs of all the ages and lands that the Bible is a revelation from God inspired by the Holy Spirit. A book like this is divine.


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## Ruger#3 (Jan 1, 2023)

Banjo Picker said:


> And where is the Bible scripture on what your saying?


Simply close it and look at the spine. King James Version, a text approved by King James for use through out the Church of England. Translated by a committee of theologians for the king to approve. It omitted the Apocrypha, 7 books. This English translation is the Bible most Christians know.

The Vulgate is the Bible that had been used in the Catholic Church for thousands of years prior to the reformation. It is the Hebrew and Greek scriptures translated into Latin, which was how services were delivered during the period.

Luthers, German translation of the Bible contained some of the Apocrypha but was selectively edited.

“In fact, Luther’s first German translation was missing 25 books (i.e., Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Esther, Job, Ecclesiastes, Jonah, Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach (i.e., Ecclesiasticus), Baruch, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Matthew, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation. He referred to the Epistle of James as “straw not worthy to be burned in my oven as tinder.” The rest he called “Judaizing nonsense.” Subsequent Protestants, deciding that Luther wasn’t _really_inspired by the Holy Spirit, replaced most of the books he had removed.”

Calvin wrote commentaries or his “interpretation“ of each book of the Bible. There is no commentary on Revelations. There is no documetation as to why. Theologians vary on opinion as to why, didn’t concur, didn’t understand, or died so young as to not have completed the task.

Which of those Ancient Greek or Hebrew scrolls is the inspired word you speak of, there are many. Man has had a hand in the Bible many times and interpretations vary some what.

Was Noah 500 years old upon entering the ark or 600. Does it really matter considering the topic?


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## Banjo Picker (Jan 2, 2023)

Ruger#3 said:


> Simply close it and look at the spine. King James Version, a text approved by King James for use through out the Church of England. Translated by a committee of theologians for the king to approve. It omitted the Apocrypha, 7 books. This English translation is the Bible most Christians know.
> 
> The Vulgate is the Bible that had been used in the Catholic Church for thousands of years prior to the reformation. It is the Hebrew and Greek scriptures translated into Latin, which was how services were delivered during the period.
> 
> ...


See "The New Archeological Discoveries" by Camden M. Cobern.


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## Ruger#3 (Jan 2, 2023)

Banjo Picker said:


> See "The New Archeological Discoveries" by Camden M. Cobern.


Gladly....


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