# The father, the son, the soldier.



## tween_the_banks (Dec 22, 2011)

OK, Jesus is the son of god according to the story. Technically, another way of looking at it is Jesus as god personified, right?
Now correct me if I'm wrong on anything, I'm no scholar.
So let's run with Jesus being god personified under the name "son".
OK, I think everyone in here, if given the power to split in to two forms, those being, "father" and "son" would send their "sonnier" (yes I made that word up) side to a cross if all sins of "man" would then be washed clean if later acceptance was made.
This dying on the cross thing seems a little blown out of proportion to me.
I say this because people sacrifice themselves for country everyday. Though it is a great and honorable sacrifice, it really doesn't compare to what this Jesus character died for.
Everyone seems so thankful for what Jesus died for, but really, it is a lesser sacrifice than what soldiers give everyday in my opinion. They give their lives for the idea of freedom, Jesus supposedly did it to save mankind's souls from that eternal torture chamber, who wouldn't do that?
I'm not trying to be insensitive, but it is something I feel is placed too highly as far as the act of sacrifice goes.
Not to mention that none of this had to be here in the first place. Soldiers can't help that they're born in to a country where lives must be sacrificed in order to maintain freedom, but god is pusher, the shaker, the omniscient shepherd. He could have had all go a million other ways.
To me, none of this seems godly.


----------



## Four (Dec 22, 2011)

The whole sacrifice part of the Jesus myth is disgusting as it is ridiculous.

1. Child sacrifice, disgusting practice, a hold over from more barbaric times.

2. God is all powerful, but needs to give birth to himself then kill himself then resurrect himself to purge sin (which he himself created)

Why kill anybody? Blood sacrifice is widely condemned in our modern society, the only reason this story is still seen as "good" is because of indoctrination. If someone told you this or a similar story without your cultural background you'd be revolted.


----------



## stringmusic (Dec 22, 2011)

Four said:


> The whole sacrifice part of the Jesus myth is disgusting as it is ridiculous.
> 
> 1. Child sacrifice, disgusting practice, a hold over from more barbaric times.
> 
> 2. God is all powerful, but needs to give birth to himself then kill himself then resurrect himself to purge sin (which he himself created)



God didn't need to do anything. If this is your understanding of the Christian faith, I suggest you go hit the books.


----------



## Four (Dec 22, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> God didn't need to do anything. If this is your understanding of the Christian faith, I suggest you go hit the books.



Then why did he? (or it)

That would just make it worse, needless human sacrifice.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Dec 22, 2011)

The resurrection is why I'm a christian.   (well, that and the fact that I met Him when I got saved and filled with the Holy Ghost)    

I think I'll stick with the guy who beat death.   Jesus existed....was killed by Pilate as documented in numerous extra-biblical writings, and the tomb is empty, as attested to by critical Jews.      

When it comes to history, no other person has more influential than Jesus.   "In the year of our Lord, 2011"


----------



## vowell462 (Dec 22, 2011)

Four said:


> The whole sacrifice part of the Jesus myth is disgusting as it is ridiculous.
> 
> 1. Child sacrifice, disgusting practice, a hold over from more barbaric times.
> 
> ...



very well said.


----------



## trophyslayer (Dec 22, 2011)

@Four

 Jesus was not a myth. He was a man, regardless of your faith. Rather call it the jesus story are jesus thing.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Dec 22, 2011)

I agree with BANDERSNATCH. Many people put lots of emphasis on the blood. It is a part, but secondary to the resurection. Many celebrate the blood, I celebrate the resurrection. Most that celebrate the blood, that I know of, never make mention of the resurrection.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Dec 22, 2011)

Four said:


> The whole sacrifice part of the Jesus myth is disgusting as it is ridiculous.
> 
> 1. Child sacrifice, disgusting practice, a hold over from more barbaric times.
> 
> ...


 If you were never a believer, it would seem very offensive. I admit that


----------



## tween_the_banks (Dec 22, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I agree with BANDERSNATCH. Many people put lots of emphasis on the blood. It is a part, but secondary to the resurection. Many celebrate the blood, I celebrate the resurrection. Most that celebrate the blood, that I know of, never make mention of the resurrection.



I understand what you are saying, but it is the blood that comes first and it is the blood that is almost absurd (no offense).


----------



## tween_the_banks (Dec 22, 2011)

Listen guys, I've seen a lot of people on here saying that non believers are ironically as closed minded as believers...
Let me go on the record here
It takes a pretty dang opened mind to believe in resurrection.
It takes an opened mind to believe in an ark that held that many animals.
It takes an opened mind to believe in a bush burning on its own and communicating.
That being said, it also takes an opened mind to be raised to believe the things stated above and to go on to question it.
I don't think either side represents a more closed mind than the other.
Some folks believe in a god for comfort. Some believe because the scripture strums a C note across their heart strings. Some believe because it makes sense. I get it. I really get it.
But to say we are closed minded for not believing is as ridiculous and trite as some of the folks on this side of the aisles claim of you guys.
The proof/faith shootout is a game of circles and I've seen a lot of energy poured in to this game. Both players end up where they started, only dizzy and content with his or her argument.





Carry on


----------



## Four (Dec 22, 2011)

trophyslayer said:


> @Four
> Jesus was not a myth. He was a man, regardless of your faith. Rather call it the jesus story are Jesus thing.



But i'm specifically referring to the myth of Jesus. Just like if i were to refer to the Odin myth i would be referring to the mythological Odin, not any of the numerous people that have been named Odin.



1gr8bldr said:


> If you were never a believer, it would seem very offensive. I admit that



Yea, This stuff only seems acceptable if you've been indoctrinated, or at least have been surrounded by people who see it as acceptable.


----------



## ted_BSR (Dec 22, 2011)

The sacrifice was step one. The resurrection was step two. Neither is more important than the other, because neither could have taken place without the other.

Jesus accepted death, and then defeated death.

If you don't believe that, then any comment you make about my comment is pointless and will be ignored.


----------



## revrandyf (Dec 23, 2011)

Four said:


> But i'm specifically referring to the myth of Jesus. Just like if i were to refer to the Odin myth i would be referring to the mythological Odin, not any of the numerous people that have been named Odin.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, This stuff only seems acceptable if you've been indoctrinated, or at least have been surrounded by people who see it as acceptable.




I only ask you to consider this...if my understanding of who Jesus is and what he has done for me is wrong, all I lose is my misguided love and devotion.  It doesn't change anything about my future.  If you are wrong by not believing in Jesus as the Son of God who died to atone for our sins and rose from the dead to give us the power of resurrection in our lives and for all eternity, and if you are wrong for not accepting him as your Savior what do you lose?  Eternal life, the peace that passes all understanding, and the joy of knowing his love.


----------



## tween_the_banks (Dec 23, 2011)

revrandyf said:


> I only ask you to consider this...if my understanding of who Jesus is and what he has done for me is wrong, all I lose is my misguided love and devotion.  It doesn't change anything about my future.  If you are wrong by not believing in Jesus as the Son of God who died to atone for our sins and rose from the dead to give us the power of resurrection in our lives and for all eternity, and if you are wrong for not accepting him as your Savior what do you lose?  Eternal life, the peace that passes all understanding, and the joy of knowing his love.



Safety nets are interesting. Yet life is more interesting without them


----------



## bullethead (Dec 23, 2011)

revrandyf said:


> I only ask you to consider this...if my understanding of who Jesus is and what he has done for me is wrong, all I lose is my misguided love and devotion.  It doesn't change anything about my future.  If you are wrong by not believing in Jesus as the Son of God who died to atone for our sins and rose from the dead to give us the power of resurrection in our lives and for all eternity, and if you are wrong for not accepting him as your Savior what do you lose?  Eternal life, the peace that passes all understanding, and the joy of knowing his love.



WHY oh WHY do the Jesus followers think there are ONLY two options???? "Well it's either Heaven or Nothing...." " Either way I win"

What if there is a 3rd option that you never considered? What if "we" have it wrong and "you" have it wrong and we should be worshiping something neither of us considered? If your willing to admit to two possibilities, why can't there be more with different eternal outcomes that neither one of us will be worthy of???


----------



## bigreddwon (Dec 23, 2011)

revrandyf said:


> I only ask you to consider this...if my understanding of who Jesus is and what he has done for me is wrong, all I lose is my misguided love and devotion.  It doesn't change anything about my future.  If you are wrong by not believing in Jesus as the Son of God who died to atone for our sins and rose from the dead to give us the power of resurrection in our lives and for all eternity, and if you are wrong for not accepting him as your Savior what do you lose?  Eternal life, the peace that passes all understanding, and the joy of knowing his love.



This backs up my absolute belief that 95% of 'believers' are liars in regard to ACTUALLY believing in a real life 'God', or Satan for that matter... To themselves first and the rest they push their faith on.. 

People are more afraid of Muslims now n days than the Devil. A deity that supposedly can and will torture you for eternity.

They are merely halfway decent gamblers with enough sense to buy insurance when the dealer had an Ace.. NOTHING more, the way they lead their lives in plain view of us 'heathens' is even more of a reinforcement.


----------



## Four (Dec 23, 2011)

revrandyf said:


> I only ask you to consider this...if my understanding of who Jesus is and what he has done for me is wrong, all I lose is my misguided love and devotion.  It doesn't change anything about my future.  If you are wrong by not believing in Jesus as the Son of God who died to atone for our sins and rose from the dead to give us the power of resurrection in our lives and for all eternity, and if you are wrong for not accepting him as your Savior what do you lose?  Eternal life, the peace that passes all understanding, and the joy of knowing his love.



Ahh Pascal's Wager, it's so full of holes.

The two biggest problems with Pascal's wager are:

1. There are thousands and thousands of gods that have been proposed as well as gods that haven't been proposed. Even counting that maybe god only lets atheists into heaven (for there ability to see through the nonsense maybe?) There is no statistical advantage to choosing one vs. the other to just toss in with "just in case"

2. Isn't god supposed to be . .  well smart? omnipotent? omnipresent? Do you really think your god is the kind of god i can trick into thinking i believe in?

Lastly i do have plenty to lose by believing in fantasy. I think having a god would take so much out of my life. My pride, my life, my individuality. To be ruled by a totalitarian sky father and watches my every move and can convict me of thought crime would be like living in north korea or nazi germany, only it wouldnt end when i die. I like my life, i apriciate it even more because i know when i die it's all over. I would think I enjoy it more than someone who thinks as long as they say the magic words they'll go to happy happy land when they die.

no silly rules, no silly outfits / hats, no dedicated days of worship. It's good stuff!


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 23, 2011)

tween_the_banks said:


> Listen guys, I've seen a lot of people on here saying that non believers are ironically as closed minded as believers...
> Let me go on the record here
> It takes a pretty dang opened mind to believe in resurrection.
> It takes an opened mind to believe in an ark that held that many animals.
> ...



Wow that's an awesome post! I've been both, an unbeliever and a believer and all kinds of in between, and I appreciate your take on being so fair minded about it rather than a beat down on either side. I've experienced almost everything mentioned here in my peabrain over all the years of this process. I was afraid God would want me to sacrifice my only child, seriously..my husband was crazy from being in VN and then got killed in a hunting accident at 29yrs old....I ran far away....I tried to hide from God so I could do all the selfdestructive things(in hindsight) that I wanted to do...and I was good at it, too. Had a lot of practice. I blamed everything on God, VN, death of a husband, letting me get led astray by all sorts of people. 

It's a supernatural thing to me, this Jesus thing, I have met my spiritual guide, which I always felt I had. I mean seriously by the skin of my teeth I survived many things that others around me did not survive. 

Anyway I'll leave it there...but thanks for your post, if everyone would strive to be easy on each other on both sides, we'd have much more peace on this earth.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 23, 2011)

Four said:


> Lastly i do have plenty to lose by believing in fantasy. I think having a god would take so much out of my life. My pride, my life, my individuality. To be ruled by a totalitarian sky father and watches my every move and can convict me of thought crime would be like living in north korea or nazi germany, only it wouldnt end when i die. I like my life, i apriciate it even more because i know when i die it's all over. I would think I enjoy it more than someone who thinks as long as they say the magic words they'll go to happy happy land when they die.
> 
> no silly rules, no silly outfits / hats, no dedicated days of worship. It's good stuff!



Not saying your experience is anything like mine just sayin'.

Been there, too. And to be honest with you, my life is much more enriched. I thought wow, I can't go back, I won't have any more fun. No more partying, no more bars/clubs etc. My second husband was a rock musician, so I went from rambo to johnny rotten in husbands..

It was an exciting life, being on the road, singing back up in bars and clubs, being at the beach, always a big party...always.  I don't even regret it. I'm actually thankful for a mostly happy life. 

I don't do those things anymore, one reason I'm too old and the other reason I wanted to live past 50. My brother a guitar player od'd. That was a catalyst for me I suppose.
People started dying around me, and getting deeper and deeper into drugs, doing and dealing. I was never too much into that but I was around it, could drink most people under the table with tekillya.
My 2nd husband turned into a user/dealer and I was at the bottom of the totum pole. I left and continued to club it and party and the music and all that for 20 more years until.....

I am back to myself now the person that could have fun without a drink, the person that doesn't need a boyfriend, 5 serious relationships is enough for one person in a lifetime. I still love to dance and party but without doing the things that I once thought were fun.

All that to say, that I didn't want to be committed to Christ, going to church any of that, I didn't wanna have to strive to be good. But ya know, it really doesn't work that way. I still do all the things I love to do, just without the self destruction part. 

Now I'm not insinuating that anyone here does all that stuff to enjoy themselves...I'm just saying being a Jesus freak like me isn't at all what you think or what I thought it would be like. He gives me unspeakable joy in my life and I don't even know why or how...His grace and mercy sustains me. And I am thankful for a mostly enjoyable life still.

Ramblin' Rose :trampoline:


----------



## Four (Dec 24, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Not saying your experience is anything like mine just sayin'.
> 
> Been there, too. And to be honest with you, my life is much more enriched. I thought wow, I can't go back, I won't have any more fun. No more partying, no more bars/clubs etc. My second husband was a rock musician, so I went from rambo to johnny rotten in husbands..
> 
> ...



I have no idea were this came from or what it has to do with my post. I dont and have never done drugs, i have a wife and a mortgage, and plan on living a long time. I just dont want to waste what time i have on this amazing planet doing religious nonsense.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 24, 2011)

Four said:


> I have no idea were this came from or what it has to do with my post. I dont and have never done drugs, i have a wife and a mortgage, and plan on living a long time. I just dont want to waste what time i have on this amazing planet doing religious nonsense.



If you read my entire post, I explained that I wasn't saying anyone else did what I did.
I'm just saying I didn't want to be tied to religious nonsense either for a long time...but I used to waste my time doing other useless things, too. 
Sorry you missed my points.


----------



## VisionCasting (Dec 26, 2011)

Four said:


> I just dont want to waste what time i have on this amazing planet doing religious nonsense.



I'm right there with ya Four. That's why I don't do the religious nonsense.  But I sure love the Lord!  Unfortunately a lot of people connect the two.


----------



## olcowman (Dec 26, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> I'm right there with ya Four. That's why I don't do the religious nonsense.  But I sure love the Lord!  Unfortunately a lot of people connect the two.



Thank you... I was trying to figure out how to put it. Jesus didn't spend alot of time on 'religious nonsense' either. Atheists, agnostics, and the rest of them are getting as disoriented as the fanatical religous groups they are always comparing us too. The actual act of accepting what our Lord offers and living our life in his grace is a whole lot simpler than ya'll non-believers are making it out to be. I've lived on bothsides and can honestly tell you it is in no way complicated, nor a burden, or even a hinderance to my happiness and well-being to live a life dedicated to Christ and his teachings. 

The blood, the child sacrificing, and all that other unpleasantness was pertinant to those times and environments and are mostly viewed as symbolic gestures/actions in these more modern days of man. Heck we gave all that stuff up years ago... well mostly anyways... cept for that one full moon every year we sacrifice us a 'non-believer'... hey 'tween the banks'? 'four'? you fellers got any plans about the ninth of next month?


----------



## Four (Dec 26, 2011)

So we agree pascal's wager is nonsense?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Dec 26, 2011)

I agree.  PW has no place in this forum....    It's really irrelevant.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Dec 26, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> I'm right there with ya Four. That's why I don't do the religious nonsense.  But I sure love the Lord!  Unfortunately a lot of people connect the two.



x2       Religion is man trying to work his way into favor with God.    Work


----------

