# What layeth beneath



## LanceColeman (Jan 21, 2010)

Old CVA mt.s and CVA Hawkens with a 1-60 twist barrels are actually pretty fair shootin rifles...... But man could there be a more factory lookin ugly sidelocK?  Whats up with all that fat on the stock? Talk about more wood than needed left where it doesn't need to be..... and that finish?? what gives?? Ah yea thats right. Factory gun so lets keep it simple and the cost low.

But.......Ya reckon just exactly IS laying beneath all that ugly?? (bottom rifle)





hhhmmmm.............

well looky here.....




I think that might be a lil bit better. Now on to the rest of the gun whilst we apply some actual finish to that raw stock.


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## FrontierGander (Jan 21, 2010)

mmm the dark one looks like a italian brand - lyman great plains to me.  the cva though is a sweet rifle!

After a closer look, thats deff an italy rifle. my GPR had the same rear sight.

I used to own a lot of those mountain rifles and t hey were sweet shooters. Heres my favorite!  58cal mtn rifle, early model, one year only edition.


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## LanceColeman (Jan 21, 2010)

FG,

My GP is merely there for comparison. the CVA mt. is what I'm working on. Besides. my GP aint ugly (LOL) And neither is YOUR CVA. she start as a kit or you do the work on her?


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## tv_racin_fan (Jan 22, 2010)

Lance you have turned that CVA stock into quite a looker so far. I miss the CVA Frontier rifle I built from kit back in the 80's, I shoulda wrung the boys neck who stole it. I recently built a pistol from kit and messed up the finish, gonna rework it some and try again on the finish.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 22, 2010)

Lookin' good, Lance. I have an old Mountain Rifle I've been thinking about doing some of that to. Keep us updated.


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## 7Mag Hunter (Jan 22, 2010)

That the BP version of a Monte Carlo stock...Both my Hawkens
are like that.....Left mine like that..


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## FrontierGander (Jan 22, 2010)

ooh wow! now i get it. I thought that other stock was for the lyman lol. Certainly did a great job on the cva stock, thats for sure. How about some completed pictures of it?


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## LanceColeman (Jan 22, 2010)

FrontierGander said:


> ooh wow! now i get it. I thought that other stock was for the lyman lol. Certainly did a great job on the cva stock, thats for sure. How about some completed pictures of it?



If I can ever get it put together!! LOL! I done messed up the patina four times and had to refinish the stock every time. hopefully I got it right this time. just a matter of drying now.


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## LanceColeman (Jan 22, 2010)

Couldn't stand it. Had to to a prefit and see what needed more inletting and where it needed work....
 still not done. but here's where I am now.


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## FrontierGander (Jan 22, 2010)

awesome looks great lance.  Thats the factory wood too? Looks almost like maple without the vertical lines that maple usually has.

Love the engraving on the buttplate too, that adds a real nice touch to the rifle.


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## LanceColeman (Jan 22, 2010)

FG,

Yup, Aint nothing there but what I started with. only thing I added was almost a tsp of minwax stain, linseed oil, tungoil and a WHOLE lot of sweat. Aint switch out or change anything. but I htink I will replace the nipple (lol)


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## snuffy (Jan 22, 2010)

Great job Lance. 
I picked one up for $100.00 dollars a few years ago and haven't done anything with it. I did spend hours trying to get the set trigger to work but never did get it to work.
I also have a CVA Squirrel rifle that is kinda rough also. Need to spruce it up and shoot it.


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## LanceColeman (Jan 22, 2010)

I am trying to work my way in to a CVA squirrel as we speak Snuff. I actually have a piece of wood that would make a full stock for one. It's what I was looking for when I ran across this one. With my 54 being my big smoke, I need a 32 way more than a 50!


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## snuffy (Jan 22, 2010)

I bought mine years ago and Forgot about it.
It stayed under the bed for years. I am ashamed of its condition. I is a fun little gun to shoot though.
Know anyone that might could get my set trigger working?


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## LanceColeman (Jan 22, 2010)

Whats the problem with it?? Normally most CVAs are set to have to be rear set then cocked. is that they way you're trying to set it?


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## snuffy (Jan 22, 2010)

I just tried to set it and then cock it. It worked the first time now it won't stay cocked. On the squirrel rifle I can set it either way.
Also the set trigger seems too far forward.


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## LanceColeman (Jan 23, 2010)

With it working once and then stopping it almost sounds like either your sear screw is loose or your fly is either worn on the edge or has a piece of trash under it. Take the lock off and try and make sure she's cleaned up good under neath and all three screws are fairly snug.


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## mountainarcher (Jan 24, 2010)

Well Brother,that thing looks like a respectful rifle....NOW,ain't you glad my good ole cuz wouldn't trade the way you wanted to on that stock blank....take it back an show it to him when your done and watch him ooh & ahh....See that factory stock you redone didn't cost you a dime..Good job my friend.....


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## sackettboys (Jan 24, 2010)

Nice detail and finish on the stock. What minwax stain did you use? Was thinking bout doing a refinish on my mtn rifle
stock, might as well and get it done before spring. BTW who made the knife?


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## LanceColeman (Jan 24, 2010)

Doug,

If ya home atter church today I was plannin on callin ya and bringin it over. Toldja you were gonna be the first fella other than me to lay hands on her.

sackettboys,

I took maybe (MAYBE) 3/4-1 tsp full of minwax oil based special walnut and skimmed it over the stock. juuuuuuust enough to fill a pore or two and darken end grains. the main reasoning behind it was to allow it to dry for an hour and use wet/dry sandpaper and linseed oil to wet sand it to fill pores and give me a dark slurry to rub over the stock. not to stain it. It's like I went about an "english" finish but stopped short enough for it to still have an american finish look to it.  The linseed oil did most of the darkening. the stain merely gave me a shade of patina and age.

The knife is an old hickory butcher/vegetable cutting knife I found when I plowed up my neighbors garden for them by an  old barn  I ground off the broken bits and reshaped the edges leaving the pitted patina. smoothed the handle down a bit (one side was cracked all the way to the third pin) soaked the handle submerged in boiled linseed oil for two days (sealed most of the crack up) then rubbed down and finished over with no gloss tung oil. Itsa good patch knife and ol hickories are good steel. Ya just gotta see passed the "junk" or "trash" exterior of things and peek inside a bit.


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## tv_racin_fan (Jan 24, 2010)

Lance that is sure lookin awesome sir. I can't wait to see er in person. Maybe I will have this pistol redone by then and we can compare rebuilds.

I'm guessing you did the vinegar wrap on the iron. I might try that on this pistol or my CVA SXS shotgun barrel that is still in the white.

Snuffy does the front trigger work at all? IF you work the set trigger wrong I understand you can break it. Have you tried adjusting the screw? You can adjust it so the front trigger will work but it wont set, some people do this for hunting because they are afraid they might shoot prematurely with the trigger set in cold weather with gloves on. It's why some firearms had a much larger trigger guard opening than others. I know my CVA with the set trigger I could set it then cock or cock then set without issue but they warned you not to set it and try to fire on half cock because it could break it.


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## LanceColeman (Jan 24, 2010)

TV,

No I've read and saw vinegar wraps, but I'm a bleach guy. lockplate, hammer and thimbles were hot bleached, barrel was cold bleached.


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## tv_racin_fan (Jan 24, 2010)

LanceColeman said:


> TV,
> 
> No I've read and saw vinegar wraps, but I'm a bleach guy. lockplate, hammer and thimbles were hot bleached, barrel was cold bleached.



AH. Oh wise one teach me of this process...

Ok just teasing a bit pretty sure I could google it but I would love to hear about it.


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## LanceColeman (Jan 24, 2010)

I been posting pics step by step on another site as I put her together and take her apart (again and again and again (LOL) TV. But it's pretty much as simple as it sounds. 

old rifle finishes are a form of rust. Rust blueing  Rust blackening, Rust browning, and even "french grey is Rust Greying.

You work the metal to the color preference of the rust finish you want. smooth it up by carding, and neutralize the rust with oils. Bleaching is what I use to get a mottled grey apearance. It's also a good place to start for rust blackening (which uses boilin water afterwards) HOT bleaching takes seconds, COLD bleaching takes around a day.....Vinegar etching takes DAYS. Itsa cool lookin finish. I've just never gotten around to a rifle shape and apearance where I wanted to use it yet. Gonna do a knife or six with it this summer though.


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## snuffy (Jan 24, 2010)

tv_racin_fan said:


> Lance that is sure lookin awesome sir. I can't wait to see er in person. Maybe I will have this pistol redone by then and we can compare rebuilds.
> 
> I'm guessing you did the vinegar wrap on the iron. I might try that on this pistol or my CVA SXS shotgun barrel that is still in the white.
> 
> Snuffy does the front trigger work at all? IF you work the set trigger wrong I understand you can break it. Have you tried adjusting the screw? You can adjust it so the front trigger will work but it wont set, some people do this for hunting because they are afraid they might shoot prematurely with the trigger set in cold weather with gloves on. It's why some firearms had a much larger trigger guard opening than others. I know my CVA with the set trigger I could set it then cock or cock then set without issue but they warned you not to set it and try to fire on half cock because it could break it.



I will have to look at it more closely. I did try to adjust the screws. I removed the triggers from my CVA Squirrel rifle and tried to compair the two but so far no luck. It will work now if I set the triger and then cock the gun. ( as Lance suggested) It will not cock without setting the trigger though. The set trigger would not work when I bought the gun several years ago. I have had a head cold all weekend but will take it apart next week and try and fix it again.
Thanks for all the help. I need all I can get.
James


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## LanceColeman (Jan 24, 2010)

James

triggers.. even set triggers are pretty simple levers..... most of the time it's not actually the trigger but how the trigger contacts the sear and or the lock. And that usually winds up being the fly or trash beneath it.

See how close the locks are from rifle to rifle. If they are the same lock try switching them with one another and see if this changes anything.

And we're done.. final inletting fitting, finish coat and two coats of wax rubbed from one end to the other. I just finished mounting sites on her (not shown in pic) and hope to get out tomorrow eve or tuesday to start working a load and getting them zeroed. sooner thats done the sooner they can be filed smooth on the edges and completed. (sorta like closure)









 went from this....




to this




and from this




to this


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## Darkhorse (Jan 25, 2010)

Snuffy,
From what I read it sounds like there is not enough clearance between the sear bar and front trigger bar. With the lock in the rifle and uncocked and the trigger unset; How much travel is there in the front trigger? Try the same thing with the rifle cocked. If you can't move the front trigger then it's most likely tight against the sear bar and that's your problem.
Jim Chambers locks are timed so the sear bar is at the same location whether cocked or uncocked. Many, if any, production rifles are not timed and the bar could be lower uncocked thereby causing interference with the front trigger bar.
Take the trigger out and set it and fire it a few times. Notice the little rise in the front bar just before it sets into the notch. If the bar is down on it, it won't set.
If the trigger sets and fires but the hammer doesn't fall then you got a wood to sear binding problem somewhere.


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## snuffy (Jan 25, 2010)

Darkhorse said:


> Snuffy,
> From what I read it sounds like there is not enough clearance between the sear bar and front trigger bar. With the lock in the rifle and uncocked and the trigger unset; How much travel is there in the front trigger? Try the same thing with the rifle cocked. If you can't move the front trigger then it's most likely tight against the sear bar and that's your problem.
> Jim Chambers locks are timed so the sear bar is at the same location whether cocked or uncocked. Many, if any, production rifles are not timed and the bar could be lower uncocked thereby causing interference with the front trigger bar.
> Take the trigger out and set it and fire it a few times. Notice the little rise in the front bar just before it sets into the notch. If the bar is down on it, it won't set.
> If the trigger sets and fires but the hammer doesn't fall then you got a wood to sear binding problem somewhere.



I will try and check it out when I get home.
Thanks,
James


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 25, 2010)

Looks great, Lance.  I have two CVAs with set triggers. On my Hawken, the sets will work in any order. On my Mountain Rifle, you have to cock it first, then set the rear trigger.


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## Nicodemus (Jan 25, 2010)

Lance, looks like to me, that you`ve done a Jim Dandy job there. That`s a nice lookin` rifle.


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## snuffy (Jan 25, 2010)

Guys thanks for all the help with my gun. I am overwhelmed. I am going to check it all out when I can sometime this week.
When I first joined this forum I asked a question about why I was having hang fires with my Lyman GP rifle and the answer I got was . (I NEVER HAD A PROBLEM.)  I am glade there are people out there willing to help a fellow outdoorsman.


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## LanceColeman (Jan 25, 2010)

Hangfire remedies for Lyman great plains rifle:
1) ensure bolt side of panel across from lock is "bumped" with palm a couple times to ensure powder is shaken down inside improved breech
2) pop cap on nipple after cleaning and drying to ensure flash channel is clear of obstructions
3)Use real black powder or fine enough grade of pyrodex (fffG) to ensure small enough grains to enter flash channel
4) clean nipple thoroughly with each cleaning
5) remove bolster clean out screw every other time you clean and use pipe cleaner or small bore brush to remove fouling from inside.
(Note, failure to do number five can lead to carbonized build up inside improved breech clogging flash channel. carbonized fouling build up is harder than super mans knee caps and the number one issue with old pawn shop sidelocks you buy that wern't cleaned properly.)


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## snuffy (Jan 25, 2010)

LanceColeman said:


> Hangfire remedies for Lyman great plains rifle:
> 1) ensure bolt side of panel across from lock is "bumped" with palm a couple times to ensure powder is shaken down inside improved breech
> 2) pop cap on nipple after cleaning and drying to ensure flash channel is clear of obstructions
> 3)Use real black powder or fine enough grade of pyrodex (fffG) to ensure small enough grains to enter flash channel
> ...



Bolster clean out screw? I heard you wern't susposed to take that out.


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## tv_racin_fan (Jan 25, 2010)

Snuffy sir you heard wrong. Not only wrong but bad bad fatal to the gun wrong. Ok so I fibbed a bit it aint actually fatal, you could drill it out and fix the problem but like Lance says you need to clean it out regularly. AND don't forget to put some kinda anti sieze or breech thread grease on it so it don't lock itself in place and don't screw it on so tight either. The same with the lock screws, they aint gotta be tightened up by Magilla Gorilla to stay in place.

Oh and I have offered to drive to other peoples places to show them what I know (which aint as much as I seem to think it is  ).

But then heck I had a couple guys here send me or give me some good ole free black powder stuff, I gots to pay it forward or suffer the bad karma... 

Oh and caps is right cheap so I pops two of em instead of one usually.

Watched this guys video on youtube where he was a shootin a Walker. He showed how he popped a cap in the chambers to ensure he dont get no hangfire or the dreaded pop n no boom. Well he goes along poppin them caps and one of sounded off but he didn't pop another one. I says to myself "self he gon have hisself a missfire", sure enough he gets the pop n no boom thing. 

My son on his very first trip out back alone made the mistake of not using enough dry patches and not going all the way down with em (can't say how many caps he popped). Anyhoo I walked out to check on him seein as how it was his first trip. I helped him finish the load and he got that dreaded pop n no boom thing. Well we tried a couple caps and no luck. I told him cool now you get to learn how to pull a ball. When I got the powder out it was the ugliest mess of crud I ever did see, all black and gooey. He learned his lessen on that one cause pullin a ball aint the easiest thing to do. BUT we had ourselfs a screw ball to test out and lemme tell ya you think a normal hollow point does something just think on how soft the lead is in a patched ball. That ball sure did tear that dead hard drive up.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 26, 2010)

snuffy said:


> Bolster clean out screw? I heard you wern't susposed to take that out.



I take mine out pretty much every time I clean my percussion gun, been in and out a hundred times or more I guess.


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## sackettboys (Jan 26, 2010)

Lance - saw your step by step tutorial, nicely done. Can your post a closeup pic on the barrel? Would like to see the detail of the etchwork of the bleach process.


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## LanceColeman (Jan 26, 2010)

Lemme see if this will help ya.

1st pic "Lyman 15/16ths 54 cal barrel". 14 hour cold bleach, neutralized and  hard carded with 0000 steel wool and motor oil.




2nd pic "CVA 15/16ths 50 cal barrel" 10 hour cold bleach neutralized and soft carded with cold water and burlap, finished with gentle 0000 steel wool and rem oil




3rd pic "swamped LC Rice 40 cal barrel. 5 minute HOT bleach, neutralized and very hard carded carded with house 3-1 oil and a wire wheel on an angle grinder. (this barrel is 10yrs old)





The harder you card, the more consistant your color will be. The gentler you card the more the contrasts stand out. the more you wrap on the barrel the more different levels of grey you get. no wraps will equal a smooth even solid finish (like blueing only it will be grey) The longer you leave in solution, the deeper your etch will be. your medium for final smoothing does has some effect (clear rem oil versus brown motor oil) on the over all tone of the barrel.

This is a pic of the lyman 54 cal barrel bone dry after light denim carding with no oil treatments. 




And this is the exact same barrel after hard carding it with motor oil and steel wool.




A day later I kicked myself very very hard for knowing no better and removing that first gentle card. I've tried three more times to achieve that effect and have not managed it again.

Also ensure your threads for bolsters,( clean outs, and nipples if you leave the drum in) and your bore are protect. You do NOT want to get bleach in the insides. it will corode your threads and etch your bore. not a good thing.


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