# More fun with the "u" in tulip!



## Artfuldodger (Dec 16, 2012)

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (= "U" of TULIP)

The second point inescapably follows from the first: since one is born totally depraved and enslaved to sin, one's ELECTION cannot be dependent or CONTINGENT on any spiritually worthy actions one commits. According to this point, God predestines or chooses to soften the hard, sin-enslaved hearts of certain fallen individuals and liberate them from their death not because of any merit they have but despite their demerits--i.e., He ELECTS to change their hearts (and thereby join them to Christ and His saving work) DESPITE the fact that they hate God and oppose Him and have hard hearts, not soft hearts, and have sin-enslaved wills, not free wills. Thus, believers have no reason to boast about themselves or their own actions: the only thing that differentiates them from Judas, Esau, or others who never respond in faith is that God gave them grace that He withheld from such reprobates (Calvinists cite, e.g., Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27; Rom. 9:11-18; 1 Cor. 4:7; Eph. 2:8-10; cf. Jn. 1:13; 15:16; Acts 13:48; 16:14; 18:27; Phil. 2:13).

http://www.generationword.com/notes/calvinism/TULIP-calvinism.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 16, 2012)

If a person is totally depraved, of course the "u" is necessary for their salvation. If someone has the total inability to accept the call from God then there is no other choice. 
I don't personally know why God would choose me over you. I've did some really terrible things in my lifetime. The only reason I can come up with is: God is not a respecter of men.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> If a person is totally depraved, of course the "u" is necessary for their salvation. If someone has the total inability to accept the call from God then there is no other choice.
> I don't personally know why God would choose me over you. I've did some really terrible things in my lifetime. The only reason I can come up with is: God is not a respecter of men.



Amen!

None of those verses are even from the gospel of Jesus Christ.


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## JB0704 (Dec 17, 2012)

I think the verses you cited are the basis, but could you break it down, and build the case for "U?"

Can somebody who believes in such do so? Thanks.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> None of those verses are even from the gospel of Jesus Christ.


"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." .... "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."


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## Israel (Dec 17, 2012)

Adam once recognized what came out of him. Bone of his bone, and flesh of his flesh.
Then, disobedience, self will, caused him to cut himself off from both God and she. (The woman YOU gave me...)

But, there is another, slain from the foundation of the world.
Dying in obedience. Rather than choosing his own life to rebel.
He has both sight, and power...to keep what he recognizes as his own.
He knows his own, and it is enough...even if I prove reprobate.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 17, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (= "U" of TULIP)
> The second point inescapably follows from the first: since one is born totally depraved and enslaved to sin, one's ELECTION cannot be dependent or CONTINGENT on any spiritually worthy actions one commits. According to this point, God predestines or chooses to soften the hard, sin-enslaved hearts of certain fallen individuals and liberate them from their death not because of any merit they have but despite their demerits--i.e., He ELECTS to change their hearts (and thereby join them to Christ and His saving work) DESPITE the fact that they hate God and oppose Him and have hard hearts, not soft hearts, and have sin-enslaved wills, not free wills. Thus, believers have no reason to boast about themselves or their own actions: the only thing that differentiates them from Judas, Esau, or others who never respond in faith is that God gave them grace that He withheld from such reprobates (Calvinists cite, e.g., Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27; Rom. 9:11-18; 1 Cor. 4:7; Eph. 2:8-10; cf. Jn. 1:13; 15:16; Acts 13:48; 16:14; 18:27; Phil. 2:13).



Trouble maker.  

.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Trouble maker.
> 
> .



Yeah i kept waiting on JB to go to the next letter but he never did.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 17, 2012)

Every baby born is born by God's created wisdom and born in God's image.  Different from all other created beings.
Mankind.
Mankind falls from that only when he sins for the very first time.

Through Christ Jesus that individual may choose to return.


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## JB0704 (Dec 17, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yeah i kept waiting on JB to go to the next letter but he never did.



I was lettin' the other thread marinade a while....seems like it got kicked back up a bit....was gettin' around to it.


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## JB0704 (Dec 17, 2012)

Israel said:


> He has both sight, and power...to keep what he recognizes as his own.
> He knows his own, and it is enough...even if I prove reprobate.



Aren't we all "reprobate?"  The election, irresistable as it may be ("U"), to us, is nothing more than random chance.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 17, 2012)

Israel said:


> He knows his own, and it is enough...even if I prove reprobate.



Amen!

"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."


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## JB0704 (Dec 17, 2012)

I removed my comment here since it seems the other was removed as well.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 17, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> You know, I have difficulty understanding why you make posts like that.
> 
> It would be more constructive, particularly if you are trying to convince somebody of your position, to address the question.



I'm afraid it's my inability to express my point without taking two hours to compose the response.  Sorry.  In this case it's on the order of... It's not about us, it's about Him.


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## JB0704 (Dec 17, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> I'm afraid it's my inability to express my point without taking two hours to compose the response.  Sorry.  In this case it's on the order of... It's not about us, it's about Him.



If it helps.....I read all of the response regardless of how short or long it is.

I am thinking on the rest.......


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## Huntinfool (Dec 17, 2012)

> Although many sites allow sharing and reposting of their content elsewhere on the web many other sites do not and are aggressive in protecting their copyrighted material. Since it is impossible to sort out who allows republishing of copyrighted material and who doesn't, consider any published material on other websites to be copyrighted and you may not post it here.
> 
> You may post a link to the other site and its' content.




http://www.thecaveonline.com/APEH/calvinTULIP.html


It might be best if you just post your particular thoughts on an issue and then link to what you're referring to so that we don't get in trouble with the powers that be.


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## Madman (Dec 17, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Aren't we all "reprobate?"  The election, irresistable as it may be ("U"), to us, is nothing more than random chance.



Nothing is random with God.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2012)

Madman said:


> Nothing is random with God.



Even if I pick ranch instead of blue cheese? Why would God care? Why wouldn't he give me a choice?


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## barryl (Dec 17, 2012)

I am amazed that none have mentioned that this "tulip"{Theological Philosophy} is "UNBIBLICAL" except for the last letter "P" Perseverance of the Saints is the only one that is scriptual, only after you except the Death, Burial, and resurrection 1 Cor. Ch. 15. {In Christ} is what Calvin could never understand. Predestination, the word occurs only 2 times in the Bible and neither time is it a reference to a Man "getting saved"


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## Israel (Dec 17, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Aren't we all "reprobate?"  The election, irresistable as it may be ("U"), to us, is nothing more than random chance.



If you have read any of my posts, you have probably discerned I think very highly of myself.
So, yes, my ability to "see" one should not be reprobate, does not automatically translate into my not being so...and if my statement was tinged with my self glorying as though I had attained anything, you rightly reprove me.
I don't know why I see what I see about that man, Jesus, when I seem to see it in no other man...except by (what I believe is) his revelation.

It surely appears to me, that the more I see, the more I see I am not like him at all. I cringe at suffering...he calls for it by boldly speaking truth to those who can wound him. He entrusts himself into the hands of evil men...when I barely give anything of myself to those I say I trust. He walks unashamed, when I still fashion, perhaps even of words like these, things behind which I may seek to hide.
I don't know what else to say except he is the Lord.
And more rightly so, and deserving of such, than I could ever presume to know.

Ecce homo. A true man.

And, as I pass through this veil, this vapor, this infinitesimally short span of time that I and my fellow man often seem to desire to make interminably long by adding grief to grief, and sorrow to sorrow, I see the perfection of a logic and wisdom manifest not only in his coming...but why he absolutely HAD to.

And I also see...none of it was, nor ever could have been, my idea.
I would have been very content to remain an only child.
And that is my condemnation...except that he who never lies, tells me, he is even greater than my own heart.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2012)

barryl said:


> I am amazed that none have mentioned that this "tulip"{Theological Philosophy} is "UNBIBLICAL" except for the last letter "P" Perseverance of the Saints is the only one that is scriptual, only after you except the Death, Burial, and resurrection 1 Cor. Ch. 15. {In Christ} is what Calvin could never understand. Predestination, the word occurs only 2 times in the Bible and neither time is it a reference to a Man "getting saved"


In consideration of your well thought out argument, how is it that you believe the doctrine of the Trinity, seeing as how the word only occurs zero times in the Bible?


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## barryl (Dec 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> In consideration of your well thought out argument, how is it that you believe the doctrine of the Trinity, seeing as how the word only occurs zero times in the Bible?


There is a thread about the Trinity already on the forums. We should stay on topic, "Tulip"


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." .... "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."



Who was Jesus talking to?  Jews?

Who were the sheep? mostly gentiles?

Of course the Jews didn't believe...weren't they temporarily blinded by God?

The only way I can rationalize being preselected in any way is that God knew I would come to Him before the foundation of the earth, so He overcame me, when He was or when I was ready.....thus a testamony. He knew that my free will would chose to follow Him, so He had mercy and grace on me and DELIVERED me.

Hope that makes some sense...lol


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## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2012)

barryl said:


> There is a thread about the Trinity already on the forums. We should stay on topic, "Tulip"


The topic is unconditional election. You brought up predestination. You can answer my question in a PM if you would.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 17, 2012)

barryl said:


> I am amazed that none have mentioned that this "tulip"{Theological Philosophy} is "UNBIBLICAL" except for the last letter "P" Perseverance of the Saints is the only one that is scriptual, only after you except the Death, Burial, and resurrection 1 Cor. Ch. 15. {In Christ} is what Calvin could never understand. Predestination, the word occurs only 2 times in the Bible and neither time is it a reference to a Man "getting saved"



Please take note that I agree with you.  
Makes me feel good.


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## barryl (Dec 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> The topic is unconditional election. You brought up predestination. You can answer my question in a PM if you would.


And you brought up Trinity, were even OK. Predestination is part of tulip, trinity is not. Round and round we go . . . Remember what Calvin had done to Servatus ?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2012)

barryl said:


> And you brought up Trinity, were even OK. Predestination is part of tulip, trinity is not. Round and round we go . . . Remember what Calvin had done to Servatus ?





Thank you so so much for posting that...sort of solves my confusion.

I looked it up....wow! I guess Calvin thought he was part man part God. After reading that I can see why he thought he was specially chosen by God. Good Lord have mercy on us.  He missed the part of 'thou shalt not kill' but picked and chose special verses he believed about his ownself.....blows my peapickin' brain.

Takes the blame off of him if he didn't have free will, eh?  How does that mesh with...'go and sin no more'?

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/michael-servetus.htm


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Please take note that I agree with you.
> Makes me feel good.



Yeah I agree, too.

It has been said in previous threads....that were closed....


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## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2012)

barryl said:


> And you brought up Trinity, were even OK. Predestination is part of tulip, trinity is not. Round and round we go . . .


I was just highlighting the weakness of your argument regarding predestination and the number of times the word occurs in the Bible.




barryl said:


> Remember what Calvin had done to Servatus ?


I have read some of the account of it. I also recognize that each age should be judged according to the prevailing laws of the time.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I have read some of the account of it. I also recognize that each age should be judged according to the prevailing laws of the time.



Really? So it was ok?
Did you read how he tortured the man and put green logs on his death pyre? No wonder he said it was God's will and not his own....God told me to.  So he twisted scripture to justify his sin....alrighty then.

Besides isn't the Bible timeless?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I was just highlighting the weakness of your argument regarding predestination and the number of times the word occurs in the Bible.



How about the word elect? Wasn't that mostly addressed to and by Jews? God's chosen/elect folk?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Please take note that I agree with you.
> Makes me feel good.



I don't it's just another form of election. It's just happening at a different time in a Christian's life. It's not Biblical either.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Really? So it was ok?
> Did you read how he tortured the man and put green logs on his death pyre? No wonder he said it was God's will and not his own....God told me to.  So he twisted scripture to justify his sin....alrighty then.
> 
> Besides isn't the Bible timeless?



From the death penalty thread...



mtnwoman said:


> If you don't want the death penalty then don't commit the crime....it's not like death row people didn't make the choice to chance it, ya know?
> 
> Render unto Caesar what is Caesars and unto God what is Gods.
> Other words we are subject to abide by the laws of the land and of course abide by what God says, too. Which is usually all close to the 10 commandments anyway.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> From the death penalty thread...



So you think it was ok what he did?

Was it required by the 'higharchy' to put people to death that they didn't agree with or was it an option?  What about grace and mercy? Torture them first then kill them the worst way you can? Really?
Sounds more like a crusifiction to me. He couldn't have had Christ in him to do that...I don't care what anyone says. 

I don't care what I said about the death penalty....we were talkin' contemporary times in that thread. How can you even relate that to the laws we have today? 

He justified his crimes with no free will...just as some people do today....oh God told me to do it. That'll get me found innocent. 

I am more than turned off by his thought process of any kind after reading much about him tonight.

Infant baptism....really????


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't it's just another form of election. It's just happening at a different time in a Christian's life. It's not Biblical either.



I guess I didn't get it. Please tell me what you mean.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> What about grace and mercy? Torture them first then kill them the worst way you can? Really?
> Sounds more like a crusifiction to me. He couldn't have had Christ in him to do that...I don't care what anyone says.


Do you think beheading would be more merciful?



mtnwoman said:


> I don't care what I said about the death penalty....we were talkin' contemporary times in that thread. How can you even relate that to the laws we have today?


That is my point! How can you relate to the laws they had then?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Do you think beheading would be more merciful?*Weren't we talkin about the death penalty in the thread you brought up. Do we behead people? *
> 
> 
> That is my point! How can you relate to the laws they had then?



I can't relate it to the laws then or the laws under Hitler. But surely you agree we are more humane.....why because we obey God.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2012)

Do you think beheading is more merciful than burning at the stake? That was my question.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Do you think beheading is more merciful than burning at the stake? That was my question.



Beheading....if you're serious. We don't do that now....you compared what I said about nowadays executions to that? Really?  Why do you jump to something we aren't talking about?

Why would we do either in the society we live in? Do we? How can you compare what we do now, than what John Calvin did to a "personal" enemy of his? Not just somebody, but someone he considered an enemy. Is that what you do to your enemy? but God told you to do it?....what about the NT? Wasn't it around when Calvin lived? He lived by the OT. And found scripture to justify his sins.  That's all.


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## barryl (Dec 17, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't it's just another form of election. It's just happening at a different time in a Christian's life. It's not Biblical either.


You know what a Football Bat is? Not Biblical, jump over to the assurance of salvation thread, just make sure you give Chapter and verse{KJV AV}  Tell us all about it!! Stay out of the Trib.,Mill.  and 2 advent scriptures {circumcision and uncircumcision} Old Testament{Jewish salvation}, New Testament Apostle Paul's{Gentile salvation}


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## gemcgrew (Dec 18, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Beheading....if you're serious. We don't do that now....you compared what I said about nowadays executions to that? Really?  Why do you jump to something we aren't talking about?


Please go back to post 36. My question was in regards to your comment. See if you can connect it there.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 18, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Please go back to post 36. My question was in regards to your comment. See if you can connect it there.


 I've never been in a country who had beheadings, these days,....all I can say is I would either move to haiti, or jump off the Yadkinville Bridge...lol..or whatever... if we had beheadings... or at least vote for someone who is against it. What does beheading have to do with anything that we are talking about? Weren't we talking about torturing and burning someone at the stake.?

Back peddle...do you think it was ok for Calvin to torture and kill someone who was a personal enemy, because they disagreed on ANYTHING?

Just answer....yes or no.

And another yes or no question...should you be following someone like him?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 18, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Thank you so so much for posting that...sort of solves my confusion.
> 
> I looked it up....wow! I guess Calvin thought he was part man part God. After reading that I can see why he thought he was specially chosen by God. Good Lord have mercy on us.  He missed the part of 'thou shalt not kill' but picked and chose special verses he believed about his ownself.....blows my peapickin' brain.
> 
> ...



It don't mesh.... 

For what it is worth and I deem it close to worthless...but I have always looked at predestination as meaning God's design for the Garden of Eden and prior to the "world". 


From scripture I get this:

Ephesians 1:4-8

New International Version (NIV)


4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.( He chose us in the Garden of Eden to be holy and blameless in his sight.)

 In love 5 he[a] predestined us for adoption to sonship* through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— ( In Jesus Christ God choses again his original model or to be holy and blameless in his sight. And as Jesus is the new Adam and the son of God, then likewise we are to this sonship and dauthership.)

 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding.

So we are the heirs of prodigal sons and dauthers or are such ( prodigal sons and dauthers )if we call on Him and repentance. For gentiles the calling or choice is made relatively easy for our chosing our brother in Jesus our saviour. Again as was in the Garden of Eden we return ( are adopted ) to being the creations of our Father the creator as was our destiny for the original creation of man and so we become sons and dauthers of the Most High.*


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## gemcgrew (Dec 18, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I've never been in a country who had beheadings, these days,....all I can say is I would either move to haiti, or jump off the Yadkinville Bridge...lol..or whatever... if we had beheadings... or at least vote for someone who is against it. What does beheading have to do with anything that we are talking about? Weren't we talking about torturing and burning someone at the stake.?


Just that beheading is quick and painless and perhaps more humane than being burned alive at the stake. Calvin pleaded for beheading and was branded as being too lenient by the governing church authorities. To presume that any of us would have done things differently in that time period is somewhat foolish thinking. Each of us are born similar if not the same. We have a good understanding of each others thoughts and the cherished secrets of our hearts. Look at the comments in each of these threads and see the passion of emotions. I can see each of us at this execution chanting "burn him!". I also can see myself at the foot of a cross chanting "crucify Him!".


mtnwoman said:


> Back peddle...do you think it was ok for Calvin to torture and kill someone who was a personal enemy, because they disagreed on ANYTHING?


No and nor was it for King David with Uriah. Thankfully, God determines the end from the beginning. These things are necessary.



mtnwoman said:


> And another yes or no question...should you be following someone like him?


Only if my eyes are fixed on Christ and perhaps Calvin and or Servetus are a few steps ahead of me.


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## JB0704 (Dec 18, 2012)

HS this thread turned into a discussion on the morality of Calvin?  Yes, beheading is humane compared to burning. Now .... On to 'u'


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## gemcgrew (Dec 18, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> HS this thread turned into a discussion on the morality of Calvin?  Yes, beheading is humane compared to burning. Now .... On to 'u'


It is only natural. When one lacks understanding or the ability to form a logical argument, a Servetus red herring is forthcoming. At the same time, this is addressed in tulip, so may be somewhat related to the topic.


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## Israel (Dec 18, 2012)

LOL...I have a distinctly different view.

People don't accidentally become religious leaders anymore than millionaires happen accidentally.
There's a pursuit involved.
And the names of great pillars of so called church history may be shown to be no more than poor men who sqaundered an opportunity to follow Jesus and chose instead a rather comfy seat and acclaim.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 18, 2012)

Israel said:


> LOL...I have a distinctly different view.
> 
> People don't accidentally become religious leaders anymore than millionaires happen accidentally.
> There's a pursuit involved.
> And the names of great pillars of so called church history may be shown to be no more than poor men who sqaundered an opportunity to follow Jesus and chose instead a rather comfy seat and acclaim.



My goodness if I  wrote with such clarity all the time...!!! Well said, my friend.


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## barryl (Dec 18, 2012)

Some more of my "weak" argument,"Elect Babies", Jacob Arminius asked Calvin an embarrassing question,"Since only God knows who the elect are, what are you going to do about all the babies that die? Are they all elect babies?" The answer by Calvin and his followers was,"Well, we can hope for the best." In other words, some babies go to He<< in Calvin's system. If adoption and election are sure as Berkhof says,Then the decree for reprobation is as eternal as the decree for salvation." Unconditional election" was supposed to be a matter based on nothing, and yet we are told that it is conditioned on foreknowledge. 1Peter 1:1-2 The Bible says it, that settles it!!!!!! "Unconditional Election" is UNBIBLICAL.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2012)

We all must admit that God chooses people. God chose Peter, but when? God chose the Jews but why? Jesus chose Judas knowing full well he would betray him.


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## Madman (Dec 19, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> The election, irresistable as it may be ("U"), to us, is nothing more than random chance.



Your remark was not about condiments it was about election.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 19, 2012)

barryl said:


> Some more of my "weak" argument,"Elect Babies", Jacob Arminius asked Calvin an embarrassing question,"Since only God knows who the elect are, what are you going to do about all the babies that die? Are they all elect babies?" The answer by Calvin and his followers was,"Well, we can hope for the best."


Both the question and the answer are embarrassing. 



barryl said:


> In other words, some babies go to He<< in Calvin's system.


Thankfully, neither the system of Calvin or Arminius determine eternal condition.



barryl said:


> If adoption and election are sure as Berkhof says,Then the decree for reprobation is as eternal as the decree for salvation."


I believe so.



barryl said:


> Unconditional election" was supposed to be a matter based on nothing


Wrong. It is based upon God's perfect will and pleasure.



barryl said:


> , and yet we are told that it is conditioned on foreknowledge. 1Peter 1:1-2 The Bible says it, that settles it!!!!!! "Unconditional Election" is UNBIBLICAL.


Wrong again. You are misusing foreknowledge here in order to make room for self. It would appear that we want to remain in the garden, shaking our fist and declaring "No, God!".


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## barryl (Dec 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Both the question and the answer are embarrassing.
> 
> 
> Thankfully, neither the system of Calvin or Arminius determine eternal condition.
> ...


What ever, you've got your{Calvin} philosophy, I've got the Bible. Merry Christmas


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## Madman (Dec 19, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Even if I pick ranch instead of blue cheese? Why would God care? Why wouldn't he give me a choice?



Another thought.

Do you really have a choice?  How many dressings were available? why did you choose ranch? was it because you ALWAYS choose it or was it the closest to you?

If you like the taste of ranch better than Blue cheese who or what determined your preference?  Was it you or something you inherited?  That would, in and of itself, affect your "Free Will". 

I don't believe we are quite as free as we think we are.

As to why God cares: you'll have to ask Him that one.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 19, 2012)

barryl said:


> What ever, you've got your{Calvin} philosophy, I've got the Bible. Merry Christmas


Merry Christmas to you and your {Arminius} philosophy. 

I've got the Bible as well and it is KJV AV.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2012)

Madman said:


> Another thought.
> 
> Do you really have a choice?  How many dressings were available? why did you choose ranch? was it because you ALWAYS choose it or was it the closest to you?
> 
> ...



I would like to know this. Why should I eat right & go to the doctor for check ups, if I don't have a choice in my well being? If we can't improve our quality of life or prevent heart disease, why do we all try?  If I don't have a choice in any venture why don't I go blow all my money?
I thought every Christian believes we have responsibility for our actions and should be good stewards of our temples/bodies. I can't be responsible for something I have no control over. Salvation, health, money, or salad dressing, it's all pre-planned.

I agree that there are many outside stimuli affecting my choices including Satan & the Holy Spirit.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 19, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I can't be responsible for something I have no control over.


"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"


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## mtnwoman (Dec 19, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> We all must admit that God chooses people. God chose Peter, but when? God chose the Jews but why? Jesus chose Judas knowing full well he would betray him.



I do believe that God predestined some people. Like the apostles, moses, jonah,billy graham, david etc etc. Those folks are like 'shepherds' that herd His sheep. Irregardless of their free will, like jonah or paul.

Why would God tell us to seek ye the kingdom of God, if we weren't able to do so? let those that have ears ( we all have ears) hear? some want to hear, some don't....some will hear and understand/obey, some won't.

When it comes to my siggy, the salvation for ALL men was laid on Christ. God gave us ALL to Him. But only those who come/surrender/believe/accept Christ will be saved and He will not turn us away...those of us who come to Him. All that the Father giveth me, doesn't necessarily mean sheep, I think it means, all the power to save, the Father giveth to Me...and those who come to Me will be saved.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"



We can't find fault with the potter. He can make us big or small, for good or bad. This depends on how the clay is reacting and or changing. The clay might not cooperate with the potter. So the potter will make it into something else. The human clay pot is constantly changing. God is constantly making us into something else.
Maybe, me or my clay is made, and it's up to me to be a steward of my clay pot. I can make my pot fat and possibly weaken the walls of my pot to the point it breaks.

    Jeremiah 18:1 The Lord said to Jeremiah: 18:2 “Go down at once to the potter’s house. I will speak to you further there.” 18:3 So I went down to the potter’s house and found him working at his wheel. 18:4 Now and then there would be something wrong with the pot he was molding from the clay with his hands. So he would rework the clay into another kind of pot as he saw fit.

    18:5 Then the Lord said to me, 18:6 “I, the Lord, say: ‘O nation of Israel, can I not deal with you as this potter deals with the clay? In my hands, you, O nation of Israel, are just like the clay in this potter’s hand.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2012)

Notice in Jeremiah that now and then the pot the potter was molding would go wrong. That's the thing about pottery, you start out with an idea and change it as a "work in progress". We know from the Bible that God has emotions. He might make good pottery when he's happy and bad pottery when he's sad. No telling what he'll make when he's angry. If he's angry with me, he might do something to the clay.
I know, I, in no way have total control over my clay/body/temple, but i am tasked with it's upkeep. I have responsibilities/choices.

Verses on stewardship:
 1 Peter 4:10 ESV 
As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace: 

 Proverbs 16:3 ESV 
Commit your work to the Lord, and your plans will be established. 
(this verse shows we must first commit)

 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ESV 
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. 

 1 Corinthians 10:31 ESV 
So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> When it comes to my siggy, the salvation for ALL men was laid on Christ. God gave us ALL to Him. But only those who come/surrender/believe/accept Christ will be saved and He will not turn us away...those of us who come to Him. All that the Father giveth me, doesn't necessarily mean sheep, I think it means, all the power to save, the Father giveth to Me...and those who come to Me will be saved.


Your siggy is one of those verses that has been misinterpreted.
 God enables those who do believe to do it. He draws them to Him by His Word and Spirit; "He opens their hearts to understand the Scriptures.


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## barryl (Dec 19, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Notice in Jeremiah that now and then the pot the potter was molding would go wrong. That's the thing about pottery, you start out with an idea and change it as a "work in progress". We know from the Bible that God has emotions. He might make good pottery when he's happy and bad pottery when he's sad. No telling what he'll make when he's angry. If he's angry with me, he might do something to the clay.
> I know, I, in no way have total control over my clay/body/temple, but i am tasked with it's upkeep. I have responsibilities/choices.
> 
> Verses on stewardship:
> ...


Take a look at these scriptures Jonah 3:9-10, Zech. 8:14 KJV AV Even God changes his mind. Calvinist just hope you won't look up these scriptures.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 19, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Your siggy is one of those verses that has been misinterpreted.
> God enables those who do believe to do it. He draws them to Him by His Word and Spirit; "He opens their hearts to understand the Scriptures.



Yes! Thank you God for your Son, Jesus, who takes away the sin of the world.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 19, 2012)

barryl said:


> Take a look at these scriptures Jonah 3:9-10, Zech. 8:14 KJV AV Even God changes his mind. Calvinist just hope you won't look up these scriptures.



If He is the Almighty God as we claim He is, then He can change His mind if He wants to.  That's one reason that I pray.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 19, 2012)

barryl said:


> Take a look at these scriptures Jonah 3:9-10, Zech. 8:14 KJV AV Even God changes his mind. Calvinist just hope you won't look up these scriptures.



Take a look at these scriptures Malachi 3:6, James 1:17, Numbers 23:19 KJV AV. God does not change his mind. God is immutable. Arminians want it their way and prefer God to be as fickle as man.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 19, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Yes! Thank you God for your Son, Jesus, who takes away the sin of the world.


Amen!  And remember He didn't stop there... He also took away the power of sin (or sinful Adamic nature) from the regenerate also.  Otherwise Christ would have no way to live His life thru us ....  vessels of clay!

Consider...
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman] Some struggle with Paul's words in Romans 7:24. They question why he would refer to himself as "_wretched_" when he taught that his "_old self_" was "_crucified_" (Romans 6:6), that he was "_a new creation_" (2Corinthians 5:17), in fact, a "_holy and blameless_" (Ephesians 1:4) "_saint_" (1Corinthians 1:2). 

This concern is easily diffused. The word "_wretched_" actually means "distressed" or "miserable." Paul was not saying that he was a "_wretched_"  person in the sense of being worthless. After all, he knew well that he  was a saint who sometimes sinned, not a worthless, wretched sinner  saved by grace. He was basically communicating his frustration over the  battle that raged in his mind due to the power of sin _working through  his "__body,__"_ "_the body of this death_" (Rom 7:24). He found victory, however, through Jesus’ life within (Rom 7:25)


[/FONT][/FONT]


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## StriperAddict (Dec 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> James 1:57,



James what?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 19, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Amen!  And remember He didn't stop there... He also took away the power of sin (or sinful Adamic nature) from the regenerate also.  Otherwise Christ would have no way to live His life thru us ....  vessels of clay!
> 
> Consider...
> [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman] Some struggle with Paul's words in Romans 7:24. They question why he would refer to himself as "_wretched_" when he taught that his "_old self_" was "_crucified_" (Romans 6:6), that he was "_a new creation_" (2Corinthians 5:17), in fact, a "_holy and blameless_" (Ephesians 1:4) "_saint_" (1Corinthians 1:2).
> ...



That is indeed some fancy footwork and along with post 59, 60 and 61, I had to check my calendar to see if today was indeed "elevate man" day.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 19, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> James what?




1:17


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## StriperAddict (Dec 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> That is indeed some fancy footwork and along with post 59, 60 and 61, I had to check my calendar to see if today was indeed "elevate man" day.


How did my post elevate man? Does Christ live within us, to live His life thru us or not?  If we still have a sinful nature I maintain we are spiritually schitsophrenic >sp<, you can't put a new patch on an old (dead) garment!

Anyway, gotta go.  I'll look this one up tomorrow eve.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2012)

The potter would rework the clay into another kind of pot as he saw fit. 
Sounds like these human clay pots kept had trouble staying molded. The potter has to make what he can of each. I want to give "the Potter" all the help I can with my clay. I wonder how many Calvinist get preventive medical exams and wear seat belts?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 19, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I want to give "the Potter" all the help I can with my clay.


He apparently needs it and you apparently know how to improve it.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 19, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I want to give "the Potter" all the help I can with my clay.


Then I submit you'll be in bondage your entire life.
It's Christ alone who will and do of His good pleasure thru you, as you rest in faith and surrender those old worthless worldly devices.

More...
Romans  7 does anything but describe the defeated Christian. In fact, it  explains how a New Testament believer can (through Christ’s indwelling  presence) experience victory over the power of sin! Paul realized that  the evil thoughts bombarding his mind were not self-generated, but were  produced by the power of sin disguising itself as the old self. If the  power of sin can convince us that the old self is still alive, we will  view ourselves as part evil and part good and, in turn, as lowly sinners  saved by grace. As a result, we will be unable to appropriate our true  identity (the fact that we are saints who through Christ have authority  over the power of sin) and will live in defeat.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 19, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> How did my post elevate man?


Perhaps I read more into it than was there. I was detecting progressive sanctification.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 19, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> How did my post elevate man? Does Christ live within us, to live His life thru us or not?  If we still have a sinful nature I maintain we are spiritually schitsophrenic >sp<, you can't put a new patch on an old (dead) garment!



I didn't think you were elevating man. 

Why are we called to obey if we didn't have the ability not to?

We have a soul that houses our sinful nature, our personality, etc.  We also have the Spirit.....ie the Word divides asunder soul and spirt and the Holy Spirit convicts us. It is me, myself and I to keep my soul in check from temptation, sometimes I can't and I still sin, which is against God's will for me. That's not self elevating when I do obey.  We aren't God given the fruit of the spirit fully flourished.  It's something we have to nurture and/or withstand.  My free will allows me to tend my garden, along with help from my Comforter. I am quite lacking, due to MY (not Gods) failure to tend my garden like I should. 

Only if I could live within the total of God's will for me.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> He apparently needs it and you apparently know how to improve it.



God doesn't need any help from us....isn't He all-knowing and makes us into what He knows we can live up to?
Artful, I don't believe is saying he can improve it.....I believe he is saying that he is working with what God gave him to work with. JMHO.

Why does God say seek ye the kingdom, if we're already in the kingdom? Does the kingdom seek us...yes it does...He tells us also to seek the kingdom.  Why does He say, seek and ye shall find, ask and you shall receive? He asks us to do things, everything is not done for us. My use of everything doesn't include the work on the cross, sin is the part we couldn't overcome, Christ did that for us and helps us with everything else we need. God does ask/tell us to do things....why would He have to tell us something, if we don't have the free will to do it. He's just saying it to say it?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> He apparently needs it and you apparently know how to improve it.



I do know how to improve my mind, body, and spirit. It's called Obedience, Faith,  Responsibility, Stewardship, Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness,  Faithfulness, Gentleness,  Self Control, Meekness, Forgiveness, & Helpfulness.
I work daily to improve my mind, body, and spirit. I even feel required by God to make these improvements. I have the ability being that i'm not totally depraved to accomplish these task. I have a Helper/Comforter/Spirit guide. Key word "guide". I also have this other being trying to stop me although he doesn't always need any help. I can trip myself just fine.

Artful, I don't believe is saying he can improve it.....I believe he is saying that he is working with what God gave him to work with. JMHO.
That's exactly what i'm saying. By giving man Free will doesn't elevate us to being equal with God. We are to strive to be like Jesus though. Jesus wanted the disciples to have the same unison he had with his Father. He didn't want them to be Gods.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Then I submit you'll be in bondage your entire life.
> It's Christ alone who will and do of His good pleasure thru you, as you rest in faith and surrender those old worthless worldly devices.



I read the Bible differently. God offers me the gift of salvation through his Son Jesus. I have a choice to accept or refuse. I will surrender all but I will never rest. I have no problem giving up worldly devices such as wealth & pride. I can't rest because i must be a steward of my body & resources. I must help others and forgive others. Surrender yes, rest no. We'll work till Jesus comes and then we'll be gathered home.
With Jesus as my Shepherd, I don't mind the Bondage!


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Romans  7 does anything but describe the defeated Christian. In fact, it  explains how a New Testament believer can (through Christ’s indwelling  presence) experience victory over the power of sin! Paul realized that  the evil thoughts bombarding his mind were not self-generated, but were  produced by the power of sin disguising itself as the old self. If the  power of sin can convince us that the old self is still alive, we will  view ourselves as part evil and part good and, in turn, as lowly sinners  saved by grace. As a result, we will be unable to appropriate our true  identity (the fact that we are saints who through Christ have authority  over the power of sin) and will live in defeat.



The belief that a Christian can't sin and has complete power over sin is the same as Election to me. I agree I have the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but it's up to me the clay to stay together. I don't feel that just becoming a Christian gives me divine powers to overcome every sin. Divine help yes. You don't believe in the power of Satan? Why is he after Christians if he has no power?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 19, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Why does God say seek ye the kingdom, if we're already in the kingdom? Does the kingdom seek us...yes it does...He tells us also to seek the kingdom.  Why does He say, seek and ye shall find, ask and you shall receive? He asks us to do things, everything is not done for us. My use of everything doesn't include the work on the cross, sin is the part we couldn't overcome, Christ did that for us and helps us with everything else we need. God does ask/tell us to do things....why would He have to tell us something, if we don't have the free will to do it. He's just saying it to say it?


"For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13)


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## gemcgrew (Dec 19, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> but it's up to me the clay to stay together.


I would bypass the fig leaf and invest heavily in super glue.



Artfuldodger said:


> You don't believe in the power of Satan? Why is he after Christians if he has no power?


"Resist the devil, and he will flee from you". He does not sound very powerful to me.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2012)

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. (requires the action of not being led astray on my part)

James 4:7, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."  (requires the action of resistance on my part)

Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. (requires the action of being sober-minded on my part)

Do you believe in the "Temptation of Christ"?(requirement from Jesus not to be tempted, proves man can be tempted by the Devil)


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## JB0704 (Dec 20, 2012)

Madman said:


> Your remark was not about condiments it was about election.





"U" would mean that one could not resist election.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 20, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> "U" would mean that one could not resist election.



I don't know the context of your statement, and doubt that I'll chase it down.
I don't know a great deal about “Calvinism”, although, I generally agree with some of it's tenets.
I also don't know what the “U” in T.U.L.I.P. has to do with resistance to election.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> "Resist the devil, and he will flee from you". He does not sound very powerful to me.



Really? 

Resisting isn't all that easy though. Obviously, or Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross, because we couldn't resist satan.  Christ defeated a weak enemy?? I don't think so.

I am not sinless, but my sins are forgiven.
Thank you God for your Son, Jesus.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 20, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> I also don't know what the “U” in T.U.L.I.P. has to do with resistance to election.



The way I understand it from other threads is that you cannot resist election, even if you wanted to, you are predestined to accept Christ as your Saviour, no matter what, you will come to salvation by your 'election' by God to be saved. Put that with no free will to be able to make that choice and you don't have to do anything, it is pre-chosen for you by God.

Something I don't agree with, if I'm understanding it correctly.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Resisting isn't all that easy though. Obviously, or Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross, because we couldn't resist satan.  Christ defeated a weak enemy?? I don't think so.



We must remember Eve had a hard time resisting the Serpent.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> The way I understand it from other threads is that you cannot resist election, even if you wanted to, you are predestined to accept Christ as your Saviour, no matter what, you will come to salvation by your 'election' by God to be saved. Put that with no free will to be able to make that choice and you don't have to do anything, it is pre-chosen for you by God.
> 
> Something I don't agree with, if I'm understanding it correctly.



He might be talking about how is it related to the "U" as we might need to wait until we get to "I" which is irresistible grace. It would stand to reason if God elected certain people, they wouldn't have a choice to turn it down as they don't have any choices anyway. We don't have any choices, everthing is pre-planned. These 5 points overlap so it's hard to discuss one without the others.

I would like to know how responsibility is still a requirement by God, given we have no control over anything we do.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 20, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Put that with no free will to be able to make that choice and you don't have to do anything, it is pre-chosen for you by God.



Please tell me again what you did to acquire your new birth.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Please tell me again what you did to acquire your new birth.



I believe the gospel?  Isn't that all we can do?  At least that's what the gospel says. First 4 books of the NT, just as the first  4 books of the OT, the torah, for the Jews.

New International Version (NIV)

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16
King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16
Common English Bible (CEB)

16 God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him won’t perish but will have eternal life.

John 3:16
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Please tell me again what you did to acquire your new birth.



Please tell me again why you need Christ if you were preselected to be saved anyway.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> "Resist the devil, and he will flee from you". He does not sound very powerful to me.



How do you resist the devil, if you have no free will to do so?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 20, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> He might be talking about how is it related to the "U" as we might need to wait until we get to "I" which is irresistible grace. It would stand to reason if God elected certain people, they wouldn't have a choice to turn it down as they don't have any choices anyway. We don't have any choices, everthing is pre-planned. These 5 points overlap so it's hard to discuss one without the others.
> 
> I would like to know how responsibility is still a requirement by God, given we have no control over anything we do.



I know, it's like a big spider web. You get tangled up in it, and it just all runs together. And if you throw out the rest of the bible, then you can understand it, I guess.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2012)

What it all boils down to is if man is capable  of repentance. If man is not capable of repentance then I'll convert. God will have mercy & compassion on who ever he wants. (One of their favorite sayings)
This means nothing man can do by himself can get him in Heaven.
Jesus tells us who God will grant mercy on. Jesus is a great mediator and teacher. We need to remember his teachings on who God will grant mercy on. 
God has not pre-selected anyone thus the Great Commission. If you pray God will change his mind. God did not create sin & evil. If man cannot be remorseful, how can he be accountable? If God predestined everything, then why eternally condemn the non-elect? 
James 5:19-20 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 20, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would like to know how responsibility is still a requirement by God, given we have no control over anything we do.


Paul addressed that very question in Romans 9:19,20. God is sovereign and in his sovereignty, makes man responsible. Man is not free.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 20, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Please tell me again why you need Christ if you were preselected to be saved anyway.


Election is unto salvation. Salvation is of the Lord.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 20, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> How do you resist the devil, if you have no free will to do so?


"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." If I resist under my own power, I would perhaps be as fearful as some. What is Satan but a servant of God.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 20, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> John 3:16
> King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


The "whosoever believeth" are God's elect. I think we have done this before.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Paul addressed that very question in Romans 9:19,20. God is sovereign and in his sovereignty, makes man responsible. Man is not free.



For the xxth time.  Your patience is a wonder of God.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 20, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> What it all boils down to is if man is capable of repentance. If man is not capable of repentance then I'll convert.


Which man? The regenerate or unregenerate? If unregenerate, it is of the flesh. What does the flesh profiteth? Nothing. "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." (John 6:63)


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Paul addressed that very question in Romans 9:19,20. God is sovereign and in his sovereignty, makes man responsible. Man is not free.



How does this responsibility play out for you  personally? What actions does God have you perform? Do you see  Obedience, Faith,  Stewardship, Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, Self Control, Meekness, Forgiveness, & Helpfulness as these responsibilities? How much input do you have performing these or the responsibilities  from your own list? 
I perform them personally with guidance from the Holy Spirit. Do you see it differently as if the Holy Spirit is doing these responsibilities himself and using you as just a vessel?  If so doesn't it appear to be God worshiping himself? How do you distinguish your worship from the Holy Spirit acting withen you? 
I feel like it's me doing the worship with guidance from the Holy Spirit. When I pray, it's actually me Art praying to God. It's not the Holy Spirit praying to God. It's not God commanding what to say. The words are mine. It's an actual thanks or request coming from my own heart. It's heartfelt, I'm not doing it as a command. I'm not doing it because I was pre-destined to pray on 12/20/12. It's an actual need on my part, not just something God thought I should do as if it was a Bible Drill. It has true meaning.
I'm not demeaning your prayer, just wondering why you pray and exactly what your motivation for responsibilities are and what are these responsibilities?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> The "whosoever believeth" are God's elect. I think we have done this before.



Well yeah.....didn't you say tell me again? So I did. It's not gonna change. Everytime you ask me the same question, I'll give you the same answer.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 20, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> For the xxth time.  Your patience is a wonder of God.


If I could be doing anything else, I would be.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Which man? The regenerate or unregenerate? If unregenerate, it is of the flesh. What does the flesh profiteth? Nothing. "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." (John 6:63)



Both with the help of the Holy Spirit. We aren't gods nor are we divine. Agreed it's all about spirits and not the flesh but while on Earth we are stuck in flesh same as Jesus. Even he needed the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can guide a person to God. We aren't so totally depraved that we can't accept the Holy spirit's help. Even before I was a Christian I knew right from wrong. I had the ability to make good or bad choices. The devil had the ability to work his way with me. I knew I needed Jesus as my Saviour. I didn't hate God before I was saved. People know what they should do, they just don't do it. We have the ability to resist sin, we just don't do it on every single occasion.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." If I resist under my own power, I would perhaps be as fearful as some. What is Satan but a servant of God.



Who here, that is saved, has said they resist by their own power? Once we are saved, then we are given the power to resist and we are of the elect.  I am not fearful of satan, I am saved, delivered, redeemed by Christ from the grips of satan. satan doesn't scare me, personally, a bit. 

satan is the servant of God that goes around causing the 'nonpreselected' to go to hale? Alrighty then. God needs help in that area? eh? What does God need satan for, if He preselected folks to go to hale anyway? I bet a lot of people would have a lot more fun than they do if they knew they were halebound with no chance of salvation.

So God's will is for some to perish?...I thought it said for none to perish. He can't be talking about the elect because they don't have the ability to perish, do they? So who is He talking about.....I know I know, the elect.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> If I could be doing anything else, I would be.



Me too, now that I'm part of the elect. I wasn't always of that mindset though.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 20, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Well yeah.....didn't you say tell me again? So I did. It's not gonna change. Everytime you ask me the same question, I'll give you the same answer.


My bad. I did not take it as an answer but see it now. You acquired your new birth by believing. Were you also born the first time (natural birth) by believing?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> My bad. I did not take it as an answer but see it now. You acquired your new birth by believing. Were you also born the first time (natural birth) by believing?



I don't remember. Were you?

I'm pretty sure I was predestined to be born....like everyone else in the world.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 20, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I bet a lot of people would have a lot more fun than they do if they knew they were halebound with no chance of salvation.


I knew a fellow like that once. He was convinced. But God.... In the beginning God...

"The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance".


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## gemcgrew (Dec 20, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I don't remember. Were you?


No. I believe because I was.



mtnwoman said:


> I'm pretty sure I was predestined to be born....like everyone else in the world.


Are those not born, predestined?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 21, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Are those not born, predestined?



Who are they?

I guess I can't grasp your question.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 21, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> No. I believe because I was.


We all believe we were born, don't we?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 21, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> How does this responsibility play out for you  personally?


In a Substitute.


Artfuldodger said:


> What actions does God have you perform?


All of them.


Artfuldodger said:


> Do you see  Obedience, Faith,  Stewardship, Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, Self Control, Meekness, Forgiveness, & Helpfulness as these responsibilities?


Yes


Artfuldodger said:


> How much input do you have performing these or the responsibilities  from your own list?


None. Thankfully. 


Artfuldodger said:


> I perform them personally with guidance from the Holy Spirit. Do you see it differently as if the Holy Spirit is doing these responsibilities himself and using you as just a vessel?  If so doesn't it appear to be God worshiping himself?


No. It is what he created and for his glory. It is according to his sovereign will and purpose.


Artfuldodger said:


> How do you distinguish your worship from the Holy Spirit acting withen you?


A new birth. A new creation. From worshipping self to worshipping God. 


Artfuldodger said:


> I feel like it's me doing the worship with guidance from the Holy Spirit. When I pray, it's actually me Art praying to God. It's not the Holy Spirit praying to God. It's not God commanding what to say. The words are mine. It's an actual thanks or request coming from my own heart. It's heartfelt, I'm not doing it as a command. I'm not doing it because I was pre-destined to pray on 12/20/12. It's an actual need on my part, not just something God thought I should do as if it was a Bible Drill. It has true meaning.


True meaning because it came from you? What if it came from Truth itself? Is that not better?


Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not demeaning your prayer, just wondering why you pray and exactly what your motivation for responsibilities are and what are these responsibilities?


"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."


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## gemcgrew (Dec 21, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> We all believe we were born, don't we?


And belief is evidence of the birth. Not how birth was acquired.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 21, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." If I resist under my own power, I would perhaps be as fearful as some. What is Satan but a servant of God.



So as you see it Satan has no free will either? Did Jesus have free will? This is where it gets tricky. It appears God, Jesus, and Satan are the same. What makes Satan different from Jesus? We're all Gods. We're all just an extension of God the Father's spirit. 
It was a setup from the beginning. God made Satan rebel because he needed a dark side of himself as a dark servant. God technically tempts us through his dark knight.
This is how God gets around the verse where he tells us he can't tempt us.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 

God cannot be tempted but man can.God can't do it. 
In the verses above only the good gifts come from God.
Everything Job, me, you, and Satan do is actually God. I feel more secure now knowing I have deity.


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## JB0704 (Dec 21, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> I also don't know what the “U” in T.U.L.I.P. has to do with resistance to election.



From wiki:



> Unconditional election is the Calvinist teaching that before God created the world, he chose to save some people according to his own purposes and apart from any conditions related to those persons



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_election

My point is that it appears that one cannot choose to not be elected.  If the doctrine is correct, the decision is made for you, regardless of personal choices or preferences.


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## JB0704 (Dec 21, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> If I could be doing anything else, I would be.


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## Israel (Dec 21, 2012)

"Lord, I get so confused, can't tell what's me, what's you, what's maybe even someone else I am afraid to consider. Where do I end and you begin?"


Could it be...in Christ?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 21, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> So as you see it Satan has no free will either?


None. He is a created being and God has a good purpose for Satan.



Artfuldodger said:


> Did Jesus have free will? This is where it gets tricky.


Tricky for the Unitarian. Trinity for the Trinitarian.

The rest of your comments appeared to involve a lot of vomiting. So I look the other way.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 21, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> My point is that it appears that one cannot choose to not be elected.  If the doctrine is correct, the decision is made for you, regardless of personal choices or preferences.



Ahh, I see.  Usually the consideration is whether or not the creature can refuse the election after he has been created (I). 
 I don't recall anyone who considered the possibility that the creature, having been created, would then go to a point in eternity, [as I understand, (I) is in time, (U) is in eternity] to instruct the Creator in the particulars of his creation.  A little different twist to consider questioning God in the setting of eternity.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 21, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Perhaps I read more into it than was there. I was detecting progressive sanctification.


 
Got ya.  And agreed, I don't believe our new "Spiritual" man in Christ can be "progressivly sanctified", as the work is completed at the cross.
What's left are our 'ol habits and pride, etc., that are part of our behavior...  and in that sanctification the journey comtinues for sure...!

I'll be back later for more fun here.  It's just been too busy preparing for doomsday.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 21, 2012)

*ok... I gave 'em all a read...*



Israel said:


> "Lord, I get so confused, can't tell what's me, what's you, what's maybe even someone else I am afraid to consider. Where do I end and you begin?"
> 
> 
> Could it be...in Christ?


 
Yessir... I was a bit exhausted over some of the discourse, and maybe I may have added to the mayhem...  so your hint of humor and a nice touch of heaven resounds well.

Yes (gosh dern it!) ...  it IS well with my soul!

Thank you Lord Jesus!   We are your workmanship!


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 21, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Tricky for the Unitarian. Trinity for the Trinitarian.


Tricky was in reference to Satan's role in Christianity. There are Trinitarians  who wrestle with Satan's free will to rebel in Heaven and his Earthly powers.
Some Trinitarians believe Jesus had free will and that he really was tempted by Satan.

Unitarian views:
Unitarian Christianity is, like other forms of Christianity, a religion that asserts the divine character, divine spirit, and divine foundation of the teaching of Jesus Christ. It places particular emphasis on reason, conscience, and free will.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 23, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> I'll be back later for more fun here.  It's just been too busy preparing for doomsday.


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## idsman75 (Feb 1, 2013)

I think I read all the posts.  Did so rather quickly.  

2 points.

1.  I don't think anyone mentioned John 6:44 which is probably one of the most compelling cases for Election.  "For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up."  I believe this is where the Westminster points to the "effectual calling".  

2.  Everyone is called but we don't have the capability of choosing to believe if we are truly 100% dead in sin unless we are drawn to Jesus by the Father.  John 3:16 would necessarily only apply to those who are capable of believing -- those that were effectually called.  Election is compatable with John 3:16.  John 3:16 doesn't negate it.


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## idsman75 (Feb 1, 2013)

I struggled with the "U" all my life until I read "Chosen by God" by R.C. Sproul who made it very clear to me.


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