# Salvation or Probation



## StriperAddict (Oct 30, 2018)

*Grace and faith, a winning combination*. 

Faith is not the savior, Grace is. 

We choose to believe the good news, but God has already decided the consequence of our believing in Christ. 

Fortunately, the consequence he chose is in our favor.  

Eternal life!

That's grace. 

It’s God’s Grace shown in Christ and welcomed in the hearts of men and women, that glorifies Him. 

Anything other than eternal, unalterable, non-forfeitable salvation, is not grace, even when called by the same name. 

Messages that change grace into a message of our works, do not honor Christs work for us and therefore do not glorify God. 

Salvation is not probation. Adam was on probation.  And God was waiting for him to mess it up. 

All it took for Adam to lose the temporal life he had was ONE sin and that's all it would take for us if we had temporal life like Adam had. 

But we do not have temporal life. 

We have life eternal!

God is not waiting to see if we mess up. That ship has sailed!

Gods plan today is not to save us and then put us back in a garden with a choice to stay saved each day.  

That's probation.  But it's not salvation. 

Christ didn't die to be Adam all over again only called by another name.  Christ is the last Adam. 

With one death and one resurrection, Christ succeeded where Adam failed. 

Yet, his success was not for himself, it was for us!

And unlike Adams failure, Christs success for us has permanent ongoing results!

At the moment we believed in Christ each of us was permanently removed from our death-dealing union with Adam and placed into a permanent union with the risen Christ.  

It didn’t depend on the strength of our spiritual batting average, but on his!

The reason our union with Christ is permanent is because Jesus EVER LIVES to make intercession FOR US!  Christ Himself would need to die again for anything to touch the believer's permanent union with Christ.

And dear friend, that is not going to happen.

Thank God!

If we've been saved, we can't lose what we have by being bad cuz we didn't get it by being good!

Just as Christ only needed to die ONCE to perfect our salvation, so saving faith does not require our repeating over and over again.

Jesus perfect work and our simple hearing the good news, inspires a faith that “takes” unto eternal salvation. 

Consider the Israelites who were bitten by venomous snakes. God equates their look at the brazen snake and living, with our looking at the savior in faith and receiving everlasting life. 

How many times did those infected by deadly venom need to look at the snake on the pole?

They looked but ONCE and they lived!  

Did God tell the Jews to look at the snake and commit their lives to the snake?

No sir. 

Did God ask that the Jews look at the snake and confess the snake to others?

Not on your life. 

Did the Jews look at the snake and promise to continue looking at the snake?

If they did so, they'd have awfully stiff necks!

Certainly not!

The truth?

One simple look...and they lived.

And one look of faith at Christ and we live...forever!  

That’s grace!

Grace miraculously takes us out of death and into life, not gradually, as we learn the ropes of religion, but instantaneously and eternally, when we hear the voice of God in the gospel...and we believe!

That's grace and its good news to anyone who needs a savior. 

This same good news is repeated with the woman at the well. Christ promised the woman that if she drank from him she would never thirst. 

He could have told her "now make sure you hang out at the well and next time you get thirsty just lower your bucket."

But he didn't. 

Instead, he inspired confidence in him that ONE (spiritual) drink from him, would have everlasting effects. 

And she drank once and never thirsted again.

Notice that the woman didn't need to keep coming to Christ over and over again to make sure she *really* drank of him the first time. 
it was just the opposite: knowing she drank of him and knowing the sufficiency of drinking ONCE, she testified of him who told her everything about her life.

One drink, her choice. One drink, eternal consequence. 

His Grace. 

Our faith. 

Grace and faith, God’s awesome and winning combination.


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## apoint (Nov 25, 2018)

Sure your familiar with the quote. ---- and his name will be removed from the book of life?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2018)

apoint said:


> Sure your familiar with the quote. ---- and his name will be removed from the book of life?



I do know that verse does exist but also;

Revelation 17:8
"The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world"

What I don't understand is how can one have their name removed if it was added at the creation of the world? Wouldn't God have known by foreknowledge that one would do that thing and never put his name in there to start with?


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## Spotlite (Nov 25, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I do know that verse does exist but also;
> 
> Revelation 17:8
> "The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world"
> ...


Sort of kills predestination don’t it??


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## Spineyman (Nov 25, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Sort of kills predestination don’t it??


 *1 John 2:19          *

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
I do not believe it is possible, to be removed since it is He who put you there in the first place and He has promised to never leave you nor forsake you, not even to the close of the age!


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## Spotlite (Nov 25, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> *1 John 2:19          *
> 
> 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
> I do not believe it is possible, to be removed since it is He who put you there in the first place and He has promised to never leave you nor forsake you, not even to the close of the age!


I have no issues with anyone that believes that way,


But Exodus 32, Revelation 22, Galatians 1, and 2 Peter 2 are a few spots that creates a hurdle for that.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Sort of kills predestination don’t it??



Not really, they were written in the book before the earth was even created. The Word was eternally with God before creation.

Ephesians 1:4-5
For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love   5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Revelation 17:8
"The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world"


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2018)

Two things. 1) The names were entered "before" creation."
2) God predestined us for adoption, "through Christ", before creation.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I have no issues with anyone that believes that way,
> 
> 
> But Exodus 32, Revelation 22, Galatians 1, and 2 Peter 2 are a few spots that creates a hurdle for that.



Hurdles, yes. Scripture is full of them. I can present some verses against OSAS if you want me to.


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## Spotlite (Nov 25, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hurdles, yes. Scripture is full of them. I can present some verses against OSAS if you want me to.


I don’t believe OSAS so it would be a fruitless effort. I don’t condemn those that do either.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t believe OSAS so it would be a fruitless effort. I don’t condemn those that do either.



Do you believe that God already knows who will screw up and loose their salvation? If so then maybe there names are not entered in the book. God would have to know by foreknowledge they would eventually screw up and never enter their names in the first place.


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## Spotlite (Nov 25, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Not really, they were written in the book before the earth was even created. The Word was eternally with God before creation.
> 
> Ephesians 1:4-5
> For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love   5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,
> ...


I can agree with that. But....according to scripture, even though that may be the case, it appears the HE can and will blot out names. 

I guess my main point is not to say anyone is wrong, but asking how does one explain those others scriptures concerning blotting out and removing? 

If it’s impossible to be removed, why write something stating that HE will?


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## Spotlite (Nov 25, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you believe that God already knows who will screw up and loose their salvation? If so then maybe there names are not entered in the book. God would have to know by foreknowledge they would eventually screw up and never enter their names in the first place.


I think he knows, he knew Judas would betray him.

And I believe they’re written there, (if since the creation of the word?) and removed by sin.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t believe OSAS so it would be a fruitless effort. I don’t condemn those that do either.



I personally don't condemn any. I leave that up to God. Free will, election, Universalism, no baptism, works, grace, Oneness, the Trinity, soul sleep, and on and on.

Curious though, what can cause a man to lose his salvation besides taking away from the words of scripture? If I teach that one can't lose his salvation, am I taking away from the words of scripture?

I guess what I'm getting at is some of us are taking away from the words of scripture. It could be through ignorance or through our indoctrination.
We can't all be right. Works vs grace, free will vs election, losing salvation, the necessity of baptism, etc. Some of us are probably taking away from the words of scripture.


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## Spotlite (Nov 25, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Two things. 1) The names were entered "before" creation."
> 2) God predestined us for adoption, "through Christ", before creation.


Maybe the the predestined only means purposed or desired, and not “this one goes up, this one goes down”?


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## Spotlite (Nov 25, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I personally don't condemn any. I leave that up to God. Free will, election, Universalism, no baptism, works, grace, Oneness, the Trinity, soul sleep, and on and on.
> 
> Curious though, what can cause a man to lose his salvation besides taking away from the words of scripture? If I teach that one can't lose his salvation, am I taking away from the words of scripture?
> 
> ...


Sin?

I don’t think you’re taking away from the scripture unless you know you’re misrepresenting it. That’s the purpose of studying, you realize you got a little off, correct and move forward, but to continue knowing you’re a little off, yea you’re taking away from scripture. 

I’ve said it before, regardless of the denomination, I believe that every person that is honestly seeking God and his ways will find it regardless of the name over the church doors.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I think he knows, he knew Judas would betray him.
> 
> And I believe they’re written there, (if since the creation of the word?) and removed by sin.



Was Judas, like Pharoah or other trials and tribulations, used by God to make sure his plan was carried out?
You have to realize that God's plan for salvation was before creation. The Word was already with God. The names were in the book before creation. 
The plan, plan "A", God's plan, His only plan was before creation. 
Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, in God's plan.

The Word becoming incarnate as a man. The Word dying on a cross for our sins. The hardening of Israel to make this possible. Judas, his mission.

The captivity of Israel. The future of Israel. Everything.

Yet somehow, with all of this planned predestination to make sure God's plan happened and happens, man has free will.

Names can be removed. Scripture tells us they can.


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## Spotlite (Nov 25, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Was Judas, like Pharoah or other trials and tribulations, used by God to make sure his plan was carried out?
> You have to realize that God's plan for salvation was before creation. The Word was already with God. The names were in the book before creation.
> The plan, plan "A", God's plan, His only plan was before creation.
> Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, in God's plan.
> ...


I believe he knew a “man” would betray him, I believe he knew it was Judas, but I don’t believe he predestined Judas to do that.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Maybe the the predestined only means purposed or desired, and not “this one goes up, this one goes down”?



Perhaps, but the actual names were already written in the book of life. I could see it as you mentioned pertaining to Ephesians 1:4-5  but Revelation says the names were already written before creation and removed later.

He could have chose all of us before the creation. He could have predestined all of us for adoption before creation. 

Yet Revelation says the names were already in the book. Do you think every human is in the book and when we take away from scripture our names are removed?


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## Spotlite (Nov 25, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Perhaps, but the actual names were already written in the book of life. I could see it as you mentioned pertaining to Ephesians 1:4-5  but Revelation says the names were already written before creation and removed later.
> 
> He could have chose all of us before the creation. He could have predestined all of us for adoption before creation.
> 
> Yet Revelation says the names were already in the book. Do you think every human is in the book and when we take away from scripture our names are removed?


I would think you’re correct if they’re there before the creation of the earth. 

Although I have heard it preached that you’re names are not written there until you’re saved.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Sin?
> 
> I don’t think you’re taking away from the scripture unless you know you’re misrepresenting it. That’s the purpose of studying, you realize you got a little off, correct and move forward, but to continue knowing you’re a little off, yea you’re taking away from scripture.
> 
> I’ve said it before, regardless of the denomination, I believe that every person that is honestly seeking God and his ways will find it regardless of the name over the church doors.



I'm with you 100% on taking away from scripture. You'd have to be doing it purposely. That could get your name removed as per Revelation.

Sin? Please explain how sin can get your name removed from the Book of Life. If sin can get you removed, what was the mission of the Word to incarnate as a man and die on a cross?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I believe he knew a “man” would betray him, I believe he knew it was Judas, but I don’t believe he predestined Judas to do that.



You believe God left something as important as the death of his Son for redemption and salvation up to Judas? I guess the Jews had a choice too. Maybe even the Romans.

Remember this was God's plan for the salvation of the world. You think he left it up to any man or nation? Maybe Isaac, or Jacob. Perhaps Mary. Maybe some other person in the lineage of Jesus. Then once he got here. Satan maybe. Or if the Jews and Romans wouldn't kill him maybe the Egyptians would.

I can't see the fate of Jesus being sent to the earth to die on a cross being left up to happenstance. This was not something that God just foresaw. He orchestrated it. God raised Pharoah up for this very purpose. He put a Stumbling Stone in Zion. 

Maybe read Romans 9-11.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I would think you’re correct if they’re there before the creation of the earth.
> 
> Although I have heard it preached that you’re names are not written there until you’re saved.



It's the same passage that says they can be removed. It is confusing.
And just for removing what scripture says, not sin.

The same passage that says the names were entered before creation. Not when one accepts Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2018)

Revelation 3:5 
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.


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## Spotlite (Nov 26, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> You believe God left something as important as the death of his Son for redemption and salvation up to Judas? I guess the Jews had a choice too. Maybe even the Romans.
> 
> Remember this was God's plan for the salvation of the world. You think he left it up to any man or nation? Maybe Isaac, or Jacob. Perhaps Mary. Maybe some other person in the lineage of Jesus. Then once he got here. Satan maybe. Or if the Jews and Romans wouldn't kill him maybe the Egyptians would.
> 
> ...


No I don’t believe it was left up to Judas. I believe “a man” any man, some man would and was.....but I believe Judas had a choice, I just believe God knew what that choice would be. 

Sort of like knowing that Peter would deny him. He knew Job also. 

I guess what I’m saying is if it’s already purposed for me to serve.........is there really any desire or effort from me needed? That creates issues for “whosoever will”?


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## Spotlite (Nov 26, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm with you 100% on taking away from scripture. You'd have to be doing it purposely. That could get your name removed as per Revelation.
> 
> Sin? Please explain how sin can get your name removed from the Book of Life. If sin can get you removed, what was the mission of the Word to incarnate as a man and die on a cross?


So we can go before him and have all sin removed without taking a sacrifice to a Priest. 

But what if we don’t go before him, is there any forgiveness; past present and future? 

I’m with you, just curious as how the following scriptures are viewed and taught by those that believe that it’s impossible to sin after becoming a child of God. 



Spotlite said:


> Exodus 32, Revelation 22, Galatians 1, and 2 Peter 2 are a few spots that creates a hurdle for that.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> So we can go before him and have all sin removed without taking a sacrifice to a Priest.
> 
> But what if we don’t go before him, is there any forgiveness; past present and future?
> 
> I’m with you, just curious as how the following scriptures are viewed and taught by those that believe that it’s impossible to sin after becoming a child of God.



Does OSAS or salvation assurance go with or against free will? One would maybe think if we had free will, we could lose the salvation that we achieved with that free will. 
I mean if free will is the means needed to achieve salvation, then it would stand to reason it would be the means of losing it.

I used to believe that maybe one lost their free will once they received salvation. That was the reason they couldn't lose salvation, because they turned over there will to the will of God.


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## Spineyman (Nov 26, 2018)

There is no such thing as free will.  It is a nice thought but a complete impossibility. The only will we have is to continually run to evil. Unless Jesus Christ sets you free and draws you by His Holy Spirit, you will not come Period!

John 6:65


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## Spotlite (Nov 26, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> There is no such thing as free will.  It is a nice thought but a complete impossibility. The only will we have is to continually run to evil. Unless Jesus Christ sets you free and draws you by His Holy Spirit, you will not come Period!
> 
> John 6:65


I don’t really like using labels such as “free will” myself, but that’s the popular term here. 

I agree on being drawn by the spirit. Do you think a man can resist that? I do, (for whoever will) and that’s what I call “free will” and I understand that label may not be the correct terminology.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t really like using labels such as “free will” myself, but that’s the popular term here.
> 
> I agree on being drawn by the spirit. Do you think a man can resist that? I do, (for whoever will) and that’s what I call “free will” and I understand that label may not be the correct terminology.



What about when Saul became Paul? He wasn't seeking Jesus. In fact he taught against him. His will was overcome by God's will.

I guess if he had not accepted, then God would go to plan "B" and elect Tyrone.
Then again though God would have known with foreknowledge that Paul would not have accepted and just elected Tyrone first.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2018)

Could anyone in the lineage of Jesus have changed their will and not provided the Son of God? From Abraham to Mary? Even before Abraham.

Was God just using foreknowledge of His Son's lineage or did he cause it?

Romans 9:11
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand:

I can't see God's will being different from his plan. God's plan is based on His will, not foreknowledge.


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## Spineyman (Nov 27, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t really like using labels such as “free will” myself, but that’s the popular term here.
> 
> I agree on being drawn by the spirit. Do you think a man can resist that? I do, (for whoever will) and that’s what I call “free will” and I understand that label may not be the correct terminology.


No sir I do not believe a man can resist. Like I said before, you are dead in your sin and trespasses. Dead men don't do anything. You believe they could resist, then do you believe that Lazarus could have resisted the calling forth of the Son of Man when He called him from the grave?


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## Spineyman (Nov 27, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> What about when Saul became Paul? He wasn't seeking Jesus. In fact he taught against him. His will was overcome by God's will.
> 
> I guess if he had not accepted, then God would go to plan "B" and elect Tyrone.
> Then again though God would have known with foreknowledge that Paul would not have accepted and just elected Tyrone first.



*Foolishness, utter foolishness.* No one can resist God's will and He does not have a plan B. Man makes his plans and the Lord directs his steps.


Isaiah 14:26-27
26This is the plan devised for the whole earth, and this is the hand stretched out over all the nations. 27The LORD of Hosts has purposed, and who can thwart Him? His hand is outstretched, so who can turn it back? 

2 Chronicles 20:6
and said, "O LORD, God of our fathers, are You not the God who is in heaven, and do You not rule over all the kingdoms of the nations? Power and might are in Your hand, and no one can stand against You.

Proverbs 19:21
Many plans are in a man's heart, but the purpose of the LORD will prevail.

Isaiah 43:13
Even from eternity I am He, and none can deliver out of My hand. When I act, who can reverse it?"

Jeremiah 44:28
Those who escape the sword will return from Egypt to Judah, few in number, and the whole remnant of Judah who went to dwell in the land of Egypt will know whose word will stand, Mine or theirs!

Jeremiah 49:20
Therefore hear the plans that the LORD has made against Edom and the strategies He has devised against the people of Teman: The little ones of the flock will surely be dragged away, and their pasture will be made desolate because of them.

Ezekiel 26:14
I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread the fishing nets. You will never be rebuilt, for I, the LORD, have spoken, declares the Lord GOD.'

Daniel 4:31
While the words were still in the king's mouth, a voice came from heaven: "It is decreed to you, King Nebuchadnezzar, that the kingdom has departed from you.

Daniel 4:35
All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, 'What have You done?'"


For the LORD of hosts has purposed, and who shall cancel it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
the Lord
*Isaiah 23:9*
 The LORD of hosts hath purposed it, to stain the pride of all glory, _and_ to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth.
*Isaiah 43:13*
 Yea, before the day _was_ I _am_ he; and _there is_ none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
*Isaiah 46:11*
 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken _it_, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed _it_, I will also do it.
his
*Isaiah 9:12*
 The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand _is_ stretched out still.
*2 Chronicles 20:6*
 And said, O LORD God of our fathers, _art_ not thou God in heaven? and rulest _not_ thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand _is there not_ power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee?
*Job 9:12*
 Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?


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## Spotlite (Nov 27, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> No sir I do not believe a man can resist. Like I said before, you are dead in your sin and trespasses. Dead men don't do anything. You believe they could resist, then do you believe that Lazarus could have resisted the calling forth of the Son of Man when He called him from the grave?


Ok, I agree mostly. Yes I think a man can resist. I’ve seen many walk and “run”.

“Almost thou persuaded me”. 

Don’t take this as just disagreeing with you, I’m just saying I believe a man can turn away. Otherwise, whosoever will is not really whosever will. It would be whosever I called. Just my opinion though.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2018)

I have felt like I've quenched the Spirit a few times. I feel like I have free will but then when I read scripture it makes me think I don't.

Even if God doesn't cause things to happen by his will and plan, he still used foreknowledge to see that his plan and will happened.

So let's say he didn't cause the lineage of Jesus but just foresaw that it happened a certain way without his control. Either way it still happened according to the plan and will of the Father. 

Suppose I'm trying to decide to wear my green shirt or my red shirt. I choose the green shirt. God through foreknowledge knew that I would choose the green shirt. 
So how could I have any other choice? I can't then choose the red shirt because my choice has already been seen. 
In a way free will is the same as predestination. It's all been seen by God.

Some things that happen such as the birth of Jesus just didn't happen by free will. They happened by God's intervention and plan. 
Maybe some things do and some things don't.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2018)

I once believed that God predestined the events from Adam to Jesus to make sure his plan came about. And then he turned the world over to free will.
Then when Jesus returns, God will once again use pre-destiny.


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## Spotlite (Nov 27, 2018)

I stand at the door and knock, IF any man hear my voice AND open the door.......


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2018)

Romans 8:15
The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

Could this lack of fear be called Blessed Assurance?

Romans 8:29-30
For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.   30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. 

Who did he predestined? Creation, everyone, Gentiles, individuals?

No one can bring any charge against God's elect. Jesus intercedes for those His Father sent to him. God's love for us is so strong that no one can separate us from Him.

This from Romans 8.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2018)

Romans 9:11
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand:

Whose election? Israel, Gentiles, Jesus, or individuals?

God said; “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Does this make God unjust? No it just means that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.
It does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Another example of how God show's mercy on some and hardens others. This is what a Potter does;

Romans 9:17
For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Why in the world does God do this? They asked; "Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what he makes them do?"


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## apoint (Nov 28, 2018)

Predestined or free will.. Its never 1 or the other. They both exist together. For instance, You have to except Jesus as your savior equals free will.
Also, God knows the beginning and the end, predestined.
Also, Rev 22: 19.......... God shall take away his part out of the book of life...... Which would be Gods free will.... God also has free will and He predestines.


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## Spineyman (Nov 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t really like using labels such as “free will” myself, but that’s the popular term here.
> 
> I agree on being drawn by the spirit. Do you think a man can resist that? I do, (for whoever will) and that’s what I call “free will” and I understand that label may not be the correct terminology.


Does this sound like free will to you, and this is way back in the Old Testament.

Ezekiel 36:24-26 

…24
For I will take you from among the nations and gather you out of all the countries, and I will bring you back into your own land.
25
I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols.
26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.…

The moral of the story is, it is not what you or I do or don't do, but rather what He, the Son of the lliving God has already done!


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## Spineyman (Nov 28, 2018)

Here is Jesus' priestly prayer for His own in John 17.

* John 17:12  *
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. *Those whom You gave Me I have kept;* *and none of them is lost* *except the son of perdition*, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 

So simple facts are if you are His then you are not walking away... Period!


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## Spineyman (Nov 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> So we can go before him and have all sin removed without taking a sacrifice to a Priest.
> 
> But what if we don’t go before him, is there any forgiveness; past present and future?
> 
> I’m with you, just curious as how the following scriptures are viewed and taught by those that believe that it’s impossible to sin after becoming a child of God.



* 1 John 2:1 *

2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 

* 1 John 1:8-10  *
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Every single person on earth will continue to sin until his or her last breath. Now with that said as you grow more in grace then you will be more humble and repentant also. That is what drives us to our knees and if you aren't a sinner then you need no savior.


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## Spineyman (Nov 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Ok, I agree mostly. Yes I think a man can resist. I’ve seen many walk and “run”.
> 
> “Almost thou persuaded me”.
> 
> Don’t take this as just disagreeing with you, I’m just saying I believe a man can turn away. Otherwise, whosoever will is not really whosoever will. It would be whosoever I called. Just my opinion though.


How can a man resist, do you believe  the scripture that says that you were dead in your tresspasses and sins. I don't know about you, but I have never seen a dead man do anything good or bad. Except those voting democratic here lately! Sorry for the jab, I couldn't resist.


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## Spotlite (Nov 28, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> How can a man resist, do you believe  the scripture that says that you were dead in your tresspasses and sins. I don't know about you, but I have never seen a dead man do anything good or bad. Except those voting democratic here lately! Sorry for the jab, I couldn't resist.


Lol ok on the jab.


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## Spotlite (Nov 28, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> Here is Jesus' priestly prayer for His own in John 17.
> 
> * John 17:12  *
> 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. *Those whom You gave Me I have kept;* *and none of them is lost* *except the son of perdition*, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
> ...


This is why I asked for an explanation of this warning for returning back AFTER.

2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV
[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. [21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. …


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 28, 2018)

What about all the verses of the good inheriting the Kingdom and the evil not?
Even with all the verses about Jesus imputing our righteousness, and the washing, we still have a lot of scripture about good vs evil as pertaining to entering Heaven or the Kingdom.
Jesus separating the Sheep and the goats as an example. The goats didn't help or feed the people(Jesus), they didn't visit the sick(Jesus). They didn't clothe the people(Jesus)

This seems to say that maybe the evil will roast and the good will have eternal life. The good, the people who help, feed, clothe, shelter, and provide for the people(Jesus).


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 28, 2018)

There is still a lot of New Testament scripture about good people being saved vs evil people suffering eternal death. This is a bit different from the saved being sinners who still sin.

It's amost like it's two different bible stories. One being Jesus died for our sins and the other that we must repent from sinning and live a sin free life of goodness vs evil. Like we as humans must provide our own righteousness for salvation.
I can see why many folks see it as such when reading scripture.

James paints this picture;

James 2:24
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Even before James was Matthews;

Matthew 13:49
This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous.

There is still some concept of the wicked vs righteous in relation to the saved vs the unsaved.

It's like two different concepts closely intertwined within scripture.

Is it the saved vs the unsaved or the wicked vs the righteous?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 28, 2018)

John 5:29
and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.

Resurrection verses, some who have done "good" will be resurrected to eternal life. Those who have been "evil" will go to eternal death.

This is different from the "saved" going to eternal life and the  "unsaved" going to eternal death.

It's like this goodness thing vs the evil thing is still a part of who gains eternal life. Regardless that none of us are good and that Jesus is the only one capable of imputing our righteousness.

We can't do it. We are all evil. So why are the verses still there? Why do they separate the good from the evil if it is the saved from the unsaved?


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## StriperAddict (Nov 29, 2018)

Worth a watch.






*Ephesians and Predestination*
Many believe that the book of Ephesians tells the story of a God who has pre-selected certain people for salvation and left others with no hope.
Jamie called in to our radio program to ask about Ephesians and the true meaning of predestination.
In this short video clip, I address Jamie’s concerns and discuss predestination from a Jew-Gentile perspective.
*If you’ve ever wondered how predestination can be understood in a simple and straightforward manner, this one is for you!*

- From AFM


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2018)

StriperAddict said:


> Worth a watch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



According to Farley, the Jewish part of God's plan was predestined. Jesus coming through the lineage of Israel. Jesus being born a Jew and dying on the cross. That part was all predestined.

Ephesians 1:5 
he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

The mystery revealed to Paul to spread the gospel to the Gentiles is the destiny of Ephesians. Then in a way salvation was to go to the Gentiles but only after the cross and/or resurrection. 

God's plan was predestined but the Gentiles had to wait until He revealed it to Paul. 

That's still a whole lot of predestiny.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2018)

I can see where one could read Ephesians as the mystery being predestined. The Gentiles being able to be grafted being the ones predestined for adoption as a whole.

That Paul was telling them their "call" to God was predestined.

But there was a time where they were without God and hope. Excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise.

That part would have to be predestined. God knowing that Israel would reject him and salvation going to the Gentiles. That mystery was predestined. 
The plan from Adam to Jesus was predestined. Maybe some see everything in the Bible predestined "but" salvation.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2018)

Ephesians 1:9
God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure.

I'm sure that was 100% predestined and known by God before the revelation.
We(Gentiles), as a group, were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him. The events that lead up to Jesus being born a Jew and the cross were predestined.

In order for God to have predestined all of this Bible story and the Good News, he used individuals such as Pharoah, Jesus, and Judas, the Jews and the Romans. He orchestrated the predestined events for Him to fulfill John 3:16.
He hardened Pharoah and the Jews except a Remnant which were elected by grace and not works.

All this when his original and only plan "A" was the, predestined mystery before all time, to bring salvation to the Gentiles. That He may make Israel jealous. That some of them will accept Jesus when they are no longer blinded by God. Right now they are still blinded.

God's predestined plan was to elect a Remnant and blind the rest of the Jews in order to fulfill his predestined planned mystery to Paul and the Gentiles.

Was the Remnant of the Jews not election for salvation by grace and not works? Were the others not sent to their grave with darkened eyes?


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## Madman (Nov 29, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 9:17
> For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
> 
> Why in the world does God do this? They asked; "Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what he makes them do?"



I see no where that God has made anyone do anything. He raised Pharaoh up for this very purpose but it does not "I forced you to do this".  I raised my children to be honest, hard working, members of society, but they could have chosen not to be.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2018)

Madman said:


> I see no where that God has made anyone do anything. He raised Pharaoh up for this very purpose but it does not "I forced you to do this".  I raised my children to be honest, hard working, members of society, but they could have chosen not to be.



If we stick with the passage, the very next verse says;
Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy , and He hardens whom He wants  to harden.

Paul knew we would ask;
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us?
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”

Paul said all this after he said that God raised Pharaoh up for His purpose. Why would Paul go to the trouble of saying we as man would question God doing this?

Then he goes on to say that God will have mercy on whom he has mercy and hardens who he wants to harden. The Potter has the right to make one lump of clay for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory.

Maybe since he uses some clay for dishonorable use, he gives them a chance for salvation too. This may be in reference to the hardening of the Jews to let the salvation go to the Gentiles per Romans 11.
Those who were strangers to the covenants of promise, without God and hope.
So even though God has hardened the Jews, they haven't stumbled so far as to fall.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2018)

He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy."

What did God actually do if it wasn't hardening Pharoah. Pharoah was just the example Paul was using in the passage. If we back up it's really about  "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Pharoah was just given as an example of God's sovereign choice. Esau had not even been born yet.
Again Paul knew that as men we would ask;
Is God unjust?

Why did Paul think we'd ask that of God? Because God makes sovereign choices. Pharoah was just one example. Paul knew we would ask. Even though Paul explained it, even today people still ask. They can't see a loving God doing such.

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.


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## Spineyman (Nov 29, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> This is why I asked for an explanation of this warning for returning back AFTER.
> 
> 2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV
> [20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. [21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. …





Artfuldodger said:


> What about all the verses of the good inheriting the Kingdom and the evil not?
> Even with all the verses about Jesus imputing our righteousness, and the washing, we still have a lot of scripture about good vs evil as pertaining to entering Heaven or the Kingdom.
> Jesus separating the Sheep and the goats as an example. The goats didn't help or feed the people(Jesus), they didn't visit the sick(Jesus). They didn't clothe the people(Jesus)
> 
> This seems to say that maybe the evil will roast and the good will have eternal life. The good, the people who help, feed, clothe, shelter, and provide for the people(Jesus).


It is the same about the parable of the wheat and tares. There are some who try to do all of this on their own, and they can't and they won't get into heaven either. It is not of work should any man boast. We can not add to or take a way from. Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to thy cross I cling. We do not bring anything with us, we can't because our righteousness is nothing more than filthy rags. It takes a sinless savior, who died to shed His Blood for us so that we could become the righteousness in Christ Jesus. It is not what we do or don't do, but what He has already done on the cross. He then was resurrected and raised to newness of life.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> It is the same about the parable of the wheat and tares. There are some who try to do all of this on their own, and they can't and they won't get into heaven either. It is not of work should any man boast. We can not add to or take a way from. Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to thy cross I cling. We do not bring anything with us, we can't because our righteousness is nothing more than filthy rags. It takes a sinless savior, who died to shed His Blood for us so that we could become the righteousness in Christ Jesus. It is not what we do or don't do, but what He has already done on the cross. He then was resurrected and raised to newness of life.



I do believe as you do and thus why my question. If it's all about the saved vs the unsaved, why are there resurrection verses about the evil or righteous?

"those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

"there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

Revelation 21:8 
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."


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## Spineyman (Dec 2, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I do believe as you do and thus why my question. If it's all about the saved vs the unsaved, why are there resurrection verses about the evil or righteous?
> 
> "those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."
> 
> ...


* Matthew 7:21-23*

21but he * “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, *but those who does the will of My Father in heaven.  22 *Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ * 23 *And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’*

There are countless people who are trying to do this on their own power, by their own works. It is very clear than not of works should any man boast, it is a free gift of God. Jesus did it all for us, not part, not some , not most, but *ALL. *It is not what we do but what He has already done!


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 2, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> * Matthew 7:21-23*
> 
> 21but he * “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, *but those who does the will of My Father in heaven.  22 *Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ * 23 *And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’*
> 
> There are countless people who are trying to do this on their own power, by their own works. It is very clear than not of works should any man boast, it is a free gift of God. Jesus did it all for us, not part, not some , not most, but *ALL. *It is not what we do but what He has already done!



What are some examples of people doing the will of the Father? Better yet what are some examples of people not doing the will of the Father that would prevent them from entering the Kingdom?

I can see that these fake Christians were doing works thinking they could buy their way in. I know that it doesn't work that way.

Still though  in verse 23 it says "depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

It's like even though it's "all" from God, we still have verses about people who practice lawlessness. Even though Christ died for the Law or our inability to keep it.

There will still be a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

"there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

"and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

I do believe in salvation from grace but at the same time how do I reconcile a resurrection of the righteous and the evil?

Does our salvation make us righteous? Perhaps it's the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Why not verses concerning a resurrection of the saved and a resurrection of the un-saved?

Maybe a resurrection of the (imputed from Christ righteousness) but those verses don't say that.


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## Spineyman (Dec 2, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> What are some examples of people doing the will of the Father? Better yet what are some examples of people not doing the will of the Father that would prevent them from entering the Kingdom?
> 
> I can see that these fake Christians were doing works thinking they could buy their way in. I know that it doesn't work that way.
> 
> ...



You stopped that just a tad short. It goes on to say, I never knew you. There are also those who try to earn their way to heaven by keeping the law. That in itself is lawlessness. because it says that if you break even one, then you are guilty of breaking them all.

Christ didn't die for the law, He died to save us from the law. We can not keep the law, and He did keep every single little piece of it perfectly, therefore His righteousness is imputed to us through His shed blood on the cross as a sinless substitute for us! Just like the Passover, when the Father sees us He sees the finished work of His Son, for the payment of our sin/ rebellion.

Because there are none righteous, no not one, then we have no other way to be righteous than to have it given to us by the atoning blood.

You said a mouthful there for sure. The Great White Throne Judgement!


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 2, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> You stopped that just a tad short. It goes on to say, I never knew you. There are also those who try to earn their way to heaven by keeping the law. That in itself is lawlessness. because it says that if you break even one, then you are guilty of breaking them all.
> 
> Christ didn't die for the law, He died to save us from the law. We can not keep the law, and He did keep every single little piece of it perfectly, therefore His righteousness is imputed to us through His shed blood on the cross as a sinless substitute for us! Just like the Passover, when the Father sees us He sees the finished work of His Son, for the payment of our sin/ rebellion.
> 
> ...



I still don't think you are seeing what I'm asking. I'm asking why is there a resurrection of the righteous and evil instead of a resurrection of the saved and unsaved?

"I never knew you" is a responce that they were never saved. I understand that. Still though there will be a resurrection of the righteous and evil. Not the saved and unsaved.

I'll see what I can find and share it with you.

Her we go, what about declared righteousness? I did mention imputed righteousness from Christ.
So maybe my question is, in the verses about the resurrection of the righteous and evil, is it imputed righteousness or declared righteousness?

Romans 3:28
For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law.

Something along these lines maybe;

Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law, to give righteousness to every one that believes.

Maybe that's my answer to a resurrection of the righteous and evil!


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 2, 2018)

Maybe that is the difference, "declared righteousness" and in the following verses it is our declared righteousness;

Matthew 13:49
This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous. 

John 5:29
and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment. 

Revelation 21:8 
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."


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## Spineyman (Dec 2, 2018)

To me you are just splitting hairs. It is a contradiction of terms. It is merely pointing out how we are made righteous. If you do not believe in Jesus then you are evil, or unrighteous!

*Romans 4:16-25 *

16 Therefore _it is_ of faith that _it might be_ according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all  17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;  18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”  19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb.  20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,  21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform.  22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”


*23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him,  24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,  25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.*
 Abraham believed God and it was reconned to him as righteousness. We receive the same exact way as Abraham did. We believe God and it will be reconned to us as righteousness as well.,

Without faith it is impossible to believe God, for first you must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 2, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> To me you are just splitting hairs. It is a contradiction of terms. It is merely pointing out how we are made righteous. If you do not believe in Jesus then you are evil, or unrighteous!
> 
> *Romans 4:16-25 *
> 
> ...



Finally an answer, thanks!


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