# The numbers game



## drippin' rock (May 20, 2013)

It has been stated recently that atheists are egotistical in their lack of belief in a higher power, That out of 7 billion folks only 1.1 billion don't believe in a god.  

Did you know that Christians are comprised of:

Groups which self-identify as part of Christianity include (but are not limited to): African Independent Churches (AICs), the Aglipayan Church, Amish, Anglicans, Armenian Apostolic, Assemblies of God; Baptists, Calvary Chapel, Catholics, Christadelphians, Christian Science, the Community of Christ, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ("Mormons"), Coptic Christians, Eastern Orthodox churches, Ethiopian Orthodox, Evangelicals, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Local Church, Lutherans, Methodists, Monophysites, Nestorians, the New Apostolic Church, Pentecostals, Plymouth Brethren, Presbyterians, the Salvation Army, Seventh-Day Adventists, Shakers, Stone-Campbell churches (Disciples of Christ; Churches of Christ; the "Christian Church and Churches of Christ"; the International Church of Christ); Uniate churches, United Church of Christ/Congregationalists, the Unity Church, Universal Church of the Kingdom of God, Vineyard churches and others. These groups exhibit varying degrees of similarity, cooporation, communion, etc. with other groups. None are known to consider all other Christian sub-groups to be equally valid. David Barrett, an Evangelical Christian who is the compiler of religion statistics for the Encyclopedia Britannica and the World Christian Encyclopedia, includes all of the groups listed above in the worldwide statistics for Christianity. 






1.Christianity: 2.1 billion

2.Islam: 1.5 billion

3.Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

4.Hinduism: 900 million

5.Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

6.Buddhism: 376 million

7.primal-indigenous: 300 million

8.African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

9.Sikhism: 23 million

10.Juche: 19 million

11.Spiritism: 15 million

12.Judaism: 14 million

13.Baha'i: 7 million

14.Jainism: 4.2 million

15.Shinto: 4 million

16.Cao Dai: 4 million

17.Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

18.Tenrikyo: 2 million

19.Neo-Paganism: 1 million

20.Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

21.Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

22.Scientology: 500 thousand


So when you weed out Mormons, JWs, Catholics, folks that say they are but really aren't, and any other possible cults,  how many true Christians are left?

How can a Christian lump all religions together to prove a higher power, when they believe everyone but them are Hades bound?






P.S.   I think of myself as an agnostic.  I don't know what is out there, or who made what.  I don't have a problem with the concept of a higher power, I'm just not inclined to believe what I've heard so far.  


http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html#Christianity


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## jmharris23 (May 21, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> So when you weed out Mormons, JWs, Catholics, folks that say they are but really aren't, and any other possible cults,  how many true Christians are left?



All of them


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## Four (May 21, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> So when you weed out Mormons, JWs, Catholics, folks that say they are but really aren't, and any other *possible cults*, how many true Christians are left?



Hmm thats a pretty strong judgement for a non-christian. Who's to say that the protestants are the cult and the Catholics aren't?

I'd say any organisation that reads/teaches the bible as a fact book / rule book is christian.. which includes JW's Mormons, 7th day'rs, etc.

Also, christianity doesn't own the market on sub-sects.. Islam certainly has a few, as do buddhism & hindu.


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## ted_BSR (May 21, 2013)

Religion doesn't really matter that much in the salvation scenario. Belief in Christ and his death and his resurrection trumps where you find yourself to worship.


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## drippin' rock (May 21, 2013)

Four said:


> Hmm thats a pretty strong judgement for a non-christian. Who's to say that the protestants are the cult and the Catholics aren't?
> 
> I'd say any organisation that reads/teaches the bible as a fact book / rule book is christian.. which includes JW's Mormons, 7th day'rs, etc.
> 
> Also, christianity doesn't own the market on sub-sects.. Islam certainly has a few, as do buddhism & hindu.



I'm coming at this from the Southern Christian viewpoint.  Mormons, JWs, and a few others are cults.  So to lump them in with real Christians is wrong.  So when you weed all the fake ones out, there aren't really 2.1 billion Christians.  

I throw all this out there because I scratch my head when I hear I am going to you know where if I don't believe a certain way.  So looking at the numbers, I just wonder how a group of people so far in the minority can look at the rest of the world and say, "We have the answers, the rest of you are doomed!"


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## ambush80 (May 21, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> I'm coming at this from the Southern Christian viewpoint.  Mormons, JWs, and a few others are cults.  So to lump them in with real Christians is wrong.  So when you weed all the fake ones out, there aren't really 2.1 billion Christians.
> 
> I throw all this out there because I scratch my head when I hear I am going to you know where if I don't believe a certain way.  So looking at the numbers, I just wonder how a group of people so far in the minority can look at the rest of the world and say, "We have the answers, the rest of you are doomed!"



That's the nature of the beast.


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## Four (May 21, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> I'm coming at this from the Southern Christian viewpoint.  Mormons, JWs, and a few others are cults.  So to lump them in with real Christians is wrong.  So when you weed all the fake ones out, there aren't really 2.1 billion Christians.
> 
> I throw all this out there because I scratch my head when I hear I am going to you know where if I don't believe a certain way.  So looking at the numbers, I just wonder how a group of people so far in the minority can look at the rest of the world and say, "We have the answers, the rest of you are doomed!"



Yea, you can really cut the numbers down even more than that, by dividing methodists away from baptists, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members

Protestantism is estimated to be 600-800million world wide. That's what? roughly 10% of the world? Can easily divide more than that.


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## jmharris23 (May 21, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> So looking at the numbers, I just wonder how a group of people so far in the minority can look at the rest of the world and say, "We have the answers, the rest of you are doomed!"



For the same reason a group so far in the minority can say we believe there is no God (atheists) or no Christian God(agnostics) and anyone who thinks there is, is misguided at best and most likely ignorant. 

The thing is, one of the groups is right, and I guess one day we'll find out which one it was.


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## ambush80 (May 21, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> For the same reason a group so far in the minority can say we believe there is no God (atheists) or no Christian God(agnostics) and anyone who thinks there is, is misguided at best and most likely ignorant.
> 
> The thing is, one of the groups is right, and I guess one day we'll find out which one it was.



If you were born and raised up in India do you think that you most likely would be a Hindu?


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## centerpin fan (May 21, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> If you were born and raised up in India do you think that you most likely would be a Hindu?



Of course.  That's why missionaries go to India.


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## ddd-shooter (May 21, 2013)

Numbers have absolutely no bearing upon what truth is. 
If you were the only guy on the planet who knew 2+2=4, would that change the fact that you knew sound mathematics? Or would that drive you to teach mathematics more proficiently?


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## drippin' rock (May 21, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> For the same reason a group so far in the minority can say we believe there is no God (atheists) or no Christian God(agnostics) and anyone who thinks there is, is misguided at best and most likely ignorant.
> 
> The thing is, one of the groups is right, and I guess one day we'll find out which one it was.



Not ignorant, just determined to believe in something outside themselves.  There is nothing wrong with that except when that group tells everyone else they will burn if they don't believe the same way.


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## jmharris23 (May 21, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> If you were born and raised up in India do you think that you most likely would be a Hindu?



Most likely....yes I absolutely do believe this.


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## jmharris23 (May 21, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Not ignorant, just determined to believe in something outside themselves.  There is nothing wrong with that except when that group tells everyone else they will burn if they don't believe the same way.



But that's what that particular group believes. It's what that groups God says. It's what their purported Savior says in a book, that the group believes to be the very word of said God. 

What would you have them to do? Deny those things?


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## drippin' rock (May 21, 2013)

I guess not.


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## ambush80 (May 21, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> But that's what that particular group believes. It's what that groups God says. It's what their purported Savior says in a book, that the group believes to be the very word of said God.
> 
> What would you have them to do? Deny those things?





centerpin fan said:


> Of course.  That's why missionaries go to India.




....


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## oldfella1962 (May 22, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Not ignorant, just determined to believe in something outside themselves.  There is nothing wrong with that except when that group tells everyone else they will burn if they don't believe the same way.



Eternal  punishment is my beef with Christianity. The Bible talks about treating everyone with compassion, love, kindness, forgiveness, mercy, etc. But the bottom line is if you don't believe, you suffer ETERNAL punishment. Not ten years, not one thousand years, but ETERNAL punishment in never ending torment. That is the most extreme violence you can imagine. 

Talk about holding a grudge!


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## centerpin fan (May 22, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> ....



Post of the Year


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## jmharris23 (May 22, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> ....



What was your point here?


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## Artfuldodger (May 22, 2013)

How can a Christian lump all religions together to prove a higher power, when they believe everyone but them are Hades bound?

I can't and don't. I would never exclude whole denomination as not being Christian. I have no way of knowing how many professed Mormons or Methodists are Christians so all those numbers mean nothing as proof of anything.


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## bullethead (May 22, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> How can a Christian lump all religions together to prove a higher power, when they believe everyone but them are Hades bound?
> 
> I can't and don't. I would never exclude whole denomination as not being Christian. I have no way of knowing how many professed Mormons or Methodists are Christians so all those numbers mean nothing as proof of anything.



Exactly
On one hand we have people saying THIS is the way. This is how our God demands we believe in order to be in his good grace. Then in the next sentence we hear, "well there are many paths to God and however you get there is A-OK, just as long as you get there."

Highly contradicting, but that is nothing new.


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## jmharris23 (May 22, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Exactly
> On one hand we have people saying THIS is the way. This is how our God demands we believe in order to be in his good grace. Then in the next sentence we hear, "well there are many paths to God and however you get there is A-OK, just as long as you get there."
> 
> Highly contradicting, but that is nothing new.



I think the problem that we have in this discussion is the bible. 

Either you believe it or you don't. The bible teaches that there is one way to heaven and that way is Jesus Christ and that those who follow Christ will believe in this. 

For the record I DO NOT believe that anyone who does not believe this is a Christian, no matter what they call themselves.


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## TripleXBullies (May 22, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> The thing is, one of the groups is right, and I guess one day we'll find out which one it was.



No... Not any one of them has to be right.


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## TripleXBullies (May 22, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> Numbers have absolutely no bearing upon what truth is.
> I



Agreed... numbers don't matter.


But since we are on the subject.... However many millions there are by those types of statistics... those are CLAIMS of christians... From the christians here... what % of professing christians are REALLY christians? I would think that number would be drastically lower.


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## jmharris23 (May 22, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> No... Not any one of them has to be right.



I include Atheists in that group....so yes, one of them does. 

This is rather simplified obviously but if there is a God he is: 

1. Just some ethereal being that floats around "up there somewhere" watching it all go down

2. He is the God of the Bible

3. He is Allah the God of the Muslims

4. He is the God of the thousands of other various religions

5. There is no God at all. 

Yes.....one of the five will be right. 

If you have another option, I'd love to hear it.


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## jmharris23 (May 22, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Agreed... numbers don't matter.
> 
> 
> But since we are on the subject.... However many millions there are by those types of statistics... those are CLAIMS of christians... From the christians here... what % of professing christians are REALLY christians? I would think that number would be drastically lower.



I have no idea of the %, but if you're speaking biblically, then yes.....much, much lower than 2.1 billion


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## TripleXBullies (May 22, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> I include Atheists in that group....so yes, one of them does.
> 
> This is rather simplified obviously but if there is a God he is:
> 
> ...




I claim to have no answer, so I know I won't be "right". Where I also have no need to have any right answer.. 

Though, if atheists are "right" then no one will ever find out in any way.


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## jmharris23 (May 22, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Though, if atheists are "right" then no one will ever find out in any way.



I get your point, but the fact of the matter is if the atheists are "right" and no one ever finds out, it doesn't change the fact that they were still right


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## TripleXBullies (May 22, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> I have no idea of the %, but if you're speaking biblically, then yes.....much, much lower than 2.1 billion



You hear christians say - so and so, or they, aren't really christians - all the time.. They would profess and be counted statistically above I'm sure... but the "REAL" ones....


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## Four (May 22, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> I include Atheists in that group....so yes, one of them does.
> 
> This is rather simplified obviously but if there is a God he is:
> 
> ...



Could be the god of a religion that doesn't exist on earth yet.


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## JB0704 (May 22, 2013)

Four said:


> Could be the god of a religion that doesn't exist on earth yet.



If he is....he is also God today.


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## jmharris23 (May 22, 2013)

Four said:


> Could be the god of a religion that doesn't exist on earth yet.



Yes....you can make that option #6 if you'd like


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## Four (May 22, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> If he is....he is also God today.



Maybe.. or maybe the energy matter that makes up god goes through a metamorphasis every 500 earth years, shedding its hermaphordotic skin into a new being, with the memories of the past, but a new personality. Sometimes splitting into two or more identical buy different deities.

Maybe a bit colorful int he language, but im not joking


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## hummdaddy (May 22, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> I include Atheists in that group....so yes, one of them does.
> 
> This is rather simplified obviously but if there is a God he is:
> 
> ...



my theory 

energy-original god
aliens -tweaked us from apes after evolution


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## JB0704 (May 22, 2013)

Four said:


> Maybe.. or maybe the energy matter that makes up god goes through a metamorphasis every 500 earth years, shedding its hermaphordotic skin into a new being, with the memories of the past, but a new personality. Sometimes splitting into two or more identical buy different deities.
> 
> Maybe a bit colorful int he language, but im not joking



........or that.


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## Four (May 22, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> ........or that.



I read alot of sci-fy / fantasy


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## TripleXBullies (May 22, 2013)

Four said:


> I read alot of sci-fy / fantasy



That would explain a lot though.


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## bullethead (May 22, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> I think the problem that we have in this discussion is the bible.
> 
> Either you believe it or you don't. The bible teaches that there is one way to heaven and that way is Jesus Christ and that those who follow Christ will believe in this.
> 
> For the record I DO NOT believe that anyone who does not believe this is a Christian, no matter what they call themselves.



I just wonder what happens to the people that believe just as hard as any Christian does but follow only the Bible before the New Testament? AKA: Judiasm

Like how many Christians would be so quick to accept another addition to the Bible? Lets say if a Third part full of 20 new books was decided upon by the Pope and councils. They now tell us that the OT was more about laws and the NT was about love and peace and teachings, but this Modern Testament is the real path to God and Heaven. How many would say Okay, it's gotta be true.

How many would say, nah we are not buying that sales pitch. Sort of just like the Jews did when the NT happened?????????


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## jmharris23 (May 22, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I just wonder what happens to the people that believe just as hard as any Christian does but follow only the Bible before the New Testament? AKA: Judiasm
> 
> According to the bible, they go to H e l l
> 
> ...




Since you asked two questions, I answered them in the quote.

We come at this from such different viewpoints it's really hard to cover much ground, but I enjoy the dialogue.


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## ambush80 (May 22, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> What was your point here?



My point is that as a Christian your calling is to have "those  people" deny their god (whom they love with all their heart).


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## centerpin fan (May 22, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> My point is that as a Christian your calling is to have "those  people" deny their god (whom they love with all their heart).



That's the fact, Jack!


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## centerpin fan (May 22, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> My point is that as a Christian your calling is to have "those  people" deny their god (whom they love with all their heart).



... whereas you would tell "those people" to deny their god because he's a fairy tale.


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## bullethead (May 22, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> ... whereas you would tell "those people" to deny their god because he's a fairy tale.



What would you tell anyone that believes in any God other than yours?


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## centerpin fan (May 22, 2013)

bullethead said:


> What would you tell anyone that believes in any God other than yours?



Acts 17:22-34


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## bullethead (May 22, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Acts 17:22-34



So cutting through the theatrics, you would tell them they are wrong. 10-4


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## SemperFiDawg (May 22, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> P.S.   I think of myself as an agnostic.  I don't know what is out there, or who made what.  I don't have a problem with the concept of a higher power, I'm just not inclined to believe what I've heard so far.



I think that's great.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  I've been there, and I'm guessing most everyone has.  Your points regarding Christianity represented the very problems I found and still find today.
Atheist state "There is no God, while Christians in dogmatic adherence to doctrine state "There is a God.  Let me tell you exactly what he wants you to know and do."  The problem with both positions is that to even be able to definitively make either statement would require the orator TO BE GOD.  
If I may make two suggestions to you they would be this.
Forget everything any Christian or non-Christian has ever told you regarding God, Jesus or Religion.  Just forget it. You are searching for the truth, and that is enough.  Get you a copy of Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis and read it.  Its a fun easy read for anyone regardless of their beliefs.  Then, read the Gospel of John in the Bible.  Afterward if you still find it unbelievable, then I'm out of answers.  If by chance you do believe it and come to call yourself a Christian, I would ask that you always remember this:  God doesn't judge you based on how much you understand, but whether or not you accept what you do understand.


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## JB0704 (May 23, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Then, read the Gospel of John in the Bible.



^^^^That's the one that changed everythng I believed about Christianity, in a very good way.


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## ted_BSR (May 23, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Exactly
> On one hand we have people saying THIS is the way. This is how our God demands we believe in order to be in his good grace. Then in the next sentence we hear, "well there are many paths to God and however you get there is A-OK, just as long as you get there."
> 
> Highly contradicting, but that is nothing new.




John 14:6

New International Version (NIV)


6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


End of Bible quote: There are not MANY paths.


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