# for all the "saved" that like this forum



## bad0351 (Jun 18, 2011)

I would like you all to come to your senses .....please, and reconsider the folley of your choice to believe in an imaginary friend that will forgive all the bad you have done through your life on earth.....It aint gonna happen.
If you have done bad things, you will live with it for the rest of your life....then you die and it all goes away...except for the people you have wronged, they will NEVER forgive OR forget what you did.
I'm telling you this so you might enjoy your time here on earth while you can.
Let go of this fairy tale while you can to avoid the disapointment you'll feel when you see the truth....you die and there is just nothing more.

Just wanted to join those of you constantly pushing YOUR beliefs on others here.


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## pbradley (Jun 18, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I would like you all to come to your senses .....please, and reconsider the folley of your choice to believe in an imaginary friend that will forgive all the bad you have done through your life on earth.....It aint gonna happen.
> If you have done bad things, you will live with it for the rest of your life....then you die and it all goes away...except for the people you have wronged, they will NEVER forgive OR forget what you did.
> I'm telling you this so you might enjoy your time here on earth while you can.
> Let go of this fairy tale while you can to avoid the disapointment you'll feel when you see the truth....you die and there is just nothing more.
> ...




...for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.


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## CAL (Jun 18, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> Just wanted to join those of you constantly pushing YOUR beliefs on others here.



Sir,I respectfully disagree with you.I am not pushing my belief on anyone.I am only trying to show folks how good Christianity has been to me and my family.No one has to read anything that I post unless they wish tone of the good features about this forum is the "ignore" button.As a moderator I have recommended to many members to use this feature when having a problem with certain posters or and their post.I would like to recommend this feature to you also.Then if someones post offends you, you will not have to read anything a particular poster has written about anything.
By the way,I would like to wish you a Happy Fathers Day also.


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## bad0351 (Jun 18, 2011)

I really am not offended at all by any of the topics or posts here....and I really don't want to "ignore" anyone here.
I just find it comical that so many people come here to try and change the way a person believes to reflect the values and beliefs of themselves.
As has been stated several times before...if I posted this elsewhere...I would probably be lambasted for doing so....so don't take this the wrong way...please.

And a very happy dads day to you sir....if I remember it is dad to be?.....but still...happy dads day.

Dale


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 18, 2011)

Hello bad0351, I agree that sometimes it sounds as if someone is pushing their beliefs. But I think you will agree that it goes both ways. For me, I like the discussion because it makes me ponder over my personal beliefs, which many times causes me to prune away what is weighing down my limbs.  It gets interesting sometimes.  Peace


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## CAL (Jun 18, 2011)

And a very happy dads day to you sir....if I remember it is dad to be?.....but still...happy dads day.

Dale[/QUOTE]

Bro.Dale,i wish it was "Dad to be" but that was many years ago.My youngest is 40 and I have 5 beautiful Grand children.Thanks for your wishes though!


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## ted_BSR (Jun 19, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I would like you all to come to your senses .....please, and reconsider the folley of your choice to believe in an imaginary friend that will forgive all the bad you have done through your life on earth.....It aint gonna happen.
> If you have done bad things, you will live with it for the rest of your life....then you die and it all goes away...except for the people you have wronged, they will NEVER forgive OR forget what you did.
> I'm telling you this so you might enjoy your time here on earth while you can.
> Let go of this fairy tale while you can to avoid the disapointment you'll feel when you see the truth....you die and there is just nothing more.
> ...



Really? That is what you want to say? OK then.


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## bad0351 (Jun 19, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Really? That is what you want to say? OK then.



Have you come to your senses yet?


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## ted_BSR (Jun 19, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> Have you come to your senses yet?



Yes.
I have not come to your senses. Your senses deceive you.


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## Thanatos (Jun 19, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I would like you all to come to your senses .....please, and reconsider the folley of your choice to believe in an imaginary friend that will forgive all the bad you have done through your life on earth.....It aint gonna happen.
> If you have done bad things, you will live with it for the rest of your life....then you die and it all goes away...except for the people you have wronged, they will NEVER forgive OR forget what you did.
> I'm telling you this so you might enjoy your time here on earth while you can.
> Let go of this fairy tale while you can to avoid the disapointment you'll feel when you see the truth....you die and there is just nothing more.
> ...



You can't spell the word disappointment and I should trust that you know there is no God...no thanks sir. 

Good day.


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## dawg2 (Jun 19, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I really am not offended at all by any of the topics or posts here....and I really don't want to "ignore" anyone here.
> I just find it comical that so many people come here to try and change the way a person believes to reflect the values and beliefs of themselves.As has been stated several times before...if I posted this elsewhere...I would probably be lambasted for doing so....so don't take this the wrong way...please.
> 
> And a very happy dads day to you sir....if I remember it is dad to be?.....but still...happy dads day.
> ...


One man can not change any other man.


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## bad0351 (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> You can't spell the word disappointment and I should trust that you know there is no God...no thanks sir.
> 
> Good day.



And a good day to you sir......
Please forgive my spelling error.....and I will forgive your ignorance....OK?


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## atlashunter (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> You can't spell the word disappointment and I should trust that you know there is no God...no thanks sir.
> 
> Good day.



Ever looked into the literacy of those who wrote the bible?


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## GAGE (Jun 20, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Ever looked into the literacy of those who wrote the bible?



Are you saying that they did not have spell check back then?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 20, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> they will NEVER forgive OR forget what you did.



Really?  Perhaps they won't forget....but they most assuredly can forgive.


Trust me, I live with a person who was GRAVELY offended....and has clearly forgiven me.

She won't ever forget.  That's the nature of sin and emotional stuff.  It's call a consequence.

But she definitely has forgiven me.

Emotionally scarred just a little???  Geez


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## Huntinfool (Jun 20, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I just find it comical that so many people come here to try and change the way a person believes to reflect the values and beliefs of themselves.





Uh.....you DO understand what you were trying to do when you posted this thread....don't you? 

Hello, Pot?  This is Kettle....YOU'RE BLACK!


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## Lukikus2 (Jun 20, 2011)

A wise man once told me "Never bash another man for his belief's, be-friend him for what he is, only in the end will you know who was right."

John 3:16


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## formula1 (Jun 20, 2011)

*Re:*

Each man must choose his own road and live with his choice. At least your have done that and I respect it. You better be right though!

I am very grateful for your words! They have reminded me of the joy of living in folly with my Lord and the foolishness of an 'imaginary' friend and Savior. It is also quite wonderful to be reminded that I am forgiven! And it even excites me to be reminded of the emptiness of death without Him.  Thanks to Christ my Savior, I won't be facing that! 

I really appreciate your reminders! Thanks!


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I would like you all to come to your senses .....please, and reconsider the folley of your choice to believe in an imaginary friend that will forgive all the bad you have done through your life on earth.....It aint gonna happen.
> If you have done bad things, you will live with it for the rest of your life....then you die and it all goes away...except for the people you have wronged, they will NEVER forgive OR forget what you did.
> I'm telling you this so you might enjoy your time here on earth while you can.
> Let go of this fairy tale while you can to avoid the disapointment you'll feel when you see the truth....you die and there is just nothing more.
> ...



Ask and yeee shall receive. I don't think you asked for it, the opposite actually, but you got it


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## 1john4:4 (Jun 20, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I would like you all to come to your senses .....please, and reconsider the folley of your choice to believe in an imaginary friend that will forgive all the bad you have done through your life on earth.....It aint gonna happen.
> If you have done bad things, you will live with it for the rest of your life....then you die and it all goes away...except for the people you have wronged, they will NEVER forgive OR forget what you did.
> I'm telling you this so you might enjoy your time here on earth while you can.
> Let go of this fairy tale while you can to avoid the disapointment you'll feel when you see the truth....you die and there is just nothing more.
> ...





1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

And again...


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2011)

1john4:4 said:


> 1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.



Sing a new tune, scripture doesn't mean diddly here.


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## gtparts (Jun 20, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I would like you all to come to your senses .....please, and reconsider the folley of your choice to believe in an imaginary friend that will forgive all the bad you have done through your life on earth.....It aint gonna happen.
> If you have done bad things, you will live with it for the rest of your life....then you die and it all goes away...except for the people you have wronged, they will NEVER forgive OR forget what you did.
> I'm telling you this so you might enjoy your time here on earth while you can.
> Let go of this fairy tale while you can to avoid the disapointment you'll feel when you see the truth....you die and there is just nothing more.
> ...



I face the choice every day. Do I live for Him
or for me? Funny thing is, it always comes down to this, to live for Him is life; to live for myself is death. But, whether I succeed or fail in following Him, I am His and He is mine. No regrets,... not here and now... and not then! My time on earth is not, in the end, punctuated with a question mark. And it makes all I have experienced worthwhile, both the good and the bad.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 20, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I'm telling you this so you might enjoy your time here on earth while you can.



Christians don't enjoy their lives?  News to me.


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## gtparts (Jun 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Sing a new tune, scripture doesn't mean diddly here.



If the Word of God doesn't mean diddly, nothing else does.


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2011)

gtparts said:


> If the Word of God doesn't mean diddly, nothing else does.



In your opinion


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## Ronnie T (Jun 20, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I would like you all to come to your senses .....please, and reconsider the folley of your choice to believe in an imaginary friend that will forgive all the bad you have done through your life on earth.....It aint gonna happen.
> If you have done bad things, you will live with it for the rest of your life....then you die and it all goes away...except for the people you have wronged, they will NEVER forgive OR forget what you did.
> I'm telling you this so you might enjoy your time here on earth while you can.
> Let go of this fairy tale while you can to avoid the disapointment you'll feel when you see the truth....you die and there is just nothing more.
> ...



Sometimes we Christians get a bit overzealous and get kinda forceful with our wanting to teach those who don't want to be taught.
We're wrong for doing that.  We shouldn't do it and hopefully we won't do it in the future.

You, and God, are in charge of your beliefs.  I can provide you with scriptural information if you want it, but I can't do much more than that.....  Other than present a good example for you.(And I can't do that if I'm badgering you).

But you'll have to trust me that I'm not living a life of misery.
And as others have said, I've had things in my life that had to be forgiven by people I've wronged and forgiven by God.  I'm happy to report that hopefully I've been forgiven by all.

Back to my original reason for commenting:  no one should be "stuffing" their religion down your throat.  But.  But, if a person comes to a spiritual forum with the intent to 'incite the Christians' they should know that the Christians will always tend to defend their Lord and God.
How could we not?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

Of course you should defend your own beliefs... 

I think the point was that as far as I know (because I don't look around there) we don't go stuffing our junk in the christian forum, yet we get bible versus and people telling us they feel sorry for us in every thread. Maybe I'm wrong about the point?


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## gtparts (Jun 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Sing a new tune, scripture doesn't mean diddly here.





gtparts said:


> If the Word of God doesn't mean diddly, nothing else does.





bullethead said:


> In your opinion



It might help to explore what gives "meaning" and what does not. Significance is important to us all. The position of the atheist, the agnostic, the deist, and even the Christian is to have a lasting impact on the world we live in and the people who inhabit it. God's Word has and will continue to transform the hearts of some men. 
The stuff you are peddling concludes in everyone being worm-bait, no more, no less. How's that for "meaning"?


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## nhancedsvt (Jun 20, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I would like you all to come to your senses .....please, and reconsider the folley of your choice to believe in an imaginary friend that will forgive all the bad you have done through your life on earth.....It aint gonna happen.
> If you have done bad things, you will live with it for the rest of your life....then you die and it all goes away...except for the people you have wronged, they will NEVER forgive OR forget what you did.
> I'm telling you this so you might enjoy your time here on earth while you can.
> Let go of this fairy tale while you can to avoid the disapointment you'll feel when you see the truth....you die and there is just nothing more.
> ...



Look at it this way, if I die a believer and there is nothing more then I haven't really lost anything, after all you said there's nothing after death. BUT if I die without ever having believed and it is the truth (which it is), then the consequences are much more severe for not believing than if I had simply believed from the start. To me being a believer sort of covers all bases if you want to look at it that way. So what is there to lose?


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2011)

gtparts said:


> It might help to explore what gives "meaning" and what does not. Significance is important to us all. The position of the atheist, the agnostic, the deist, and even the Christian is to have a lasting impact on the world we live in and the people who inhabit it. God's Word has and will continue to transform the hearts of some men.
> The stuff you are peddling concludes in everyone being worm-bait, no more, no less. How's that for "meaning"?



In discussion, intelligent discussion , views, points and counterpoints are expected and appreciated by any and all sides. Scripture may be appreciated in the christianity forum, but to use it here is useless. Up in the christianity forum I seriously doubt that anyone who constantly or only quoted scripture or verses from the Koran, Satanic Bible,  Scientology, any other religious handbook or guide would not be tolerated or left around for long.

Basically, if scripture is ALL ya got here, save it for where it is believed and tolerated by like minded people. If scripture is ALL one can quote then quote ALL scripture, even the despicable parts. If ya wanna make your point about your beliefs then do it without scripture because the crowd your trying to sell it to isn't buying it.


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2011)

> God's Word has and will continue to transform the hearts of some men.



And there is nothing wrong with that, but why not keep it where those men like to talk about it?


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2011)

nhancedsvt said:


> Look at it this way, if I die a believer and there is nothing more then I haven't really lost anything, after all you said there's nothing after death. BUT if I die without ever having believed and it is the truth (which it is), then the consequences are much more severe for not believing than if I had simply believed from the start. To me being a believer sort of covers all bases if you want to look at it that way. So what is there to lose?



What if we both have it wrong? If there are 2 choices there are a thousand.


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2011)

> The stuff you are peddling concludes in everyone being worm-bait, no more, no less. How's that for "meaning"?



Except for some rare instances, anyone that has been buried after death is not much more. It is that thought that drives man to NEED something more. Mortality is hard to cope with.


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## atlashunter (Jun 20, 2011)

nhancedsvt said:


> Look at it this way, if I die a believer and there is nothing more then I haven't really lost anything, after all you said there's nothing after death. BUT if I die without ever having believed and it is the truth (which it is), then the consequences are much more severe for not believing than if I had simply believed from the start. To me being a believer sort of covers all bases if you want to look at it that way. So what is there to lose?



Living the only life you'll ever have being deluded and deluding your children and others seems a pretty high cost to me. Not to mention the day a week spent in church, the money going to churches, believing yourself a sinful wretch, believing people should burn for not sharing your beliefs, etc.


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## 1john4:4 (Jun 20, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Living the only life you'll ever have being deluded and deluding your children and others seems a pretty high cost to me. Not to mention the day a week spent in church, the money going to churches, believing yourself a sinful wretch, believing people should burn for not sharing your beliefs, etc.





Who has ever told you that you SHOULD burn for not following their beliefs??


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## 1john4:4 (Jun 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Sing a new tune, scripture doesn't mean diddly here.




I never said it meant anything to you. But for a non believer to tell a believer that he needs to quit believing in a fairy tail made up non sense it means everything... God knew that there would be non believers who scoffed at and made fun of those who do believe so that is His way of telling believers hey don't let them bring you down or get you upset; because it is they that perish for not believing.


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2011)

1john4:4 said:


> I never said it meant anything to you. But for a non believer to tell a believer that he needs to quit believing in a fairy tail made up non sense it means everything... God knew that there would be non believers who scoffed at and made fun of those who do believe so that is His way of telling believers hey don't let them bring you down or get you upset; because it is they that perish for not believing.



So you claim to know what God knows. When did he tell you this?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

1john4:4 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> Who has ever told you that you SHOULD burn for not following their beliefs??




REALLY??? Have you read the posts here??


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

1john4:4 said:


> I never said it meant anything to you. But for a non believer to tell a believer that he needs to quit believing in a fairy tail made up non sense it means everything... God knew that there would be non believers who scoffed at and made fun of those who do believe so that is His way of telling believers hey don't let them bring you down or get you upset; because it is they that perish for not believing.



There... you just said it... perish for not believing (what it is that you believe to be true)... Perish = ????


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## atlashunter (Jun 20, 2011)

1john4:4 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> Who has ever told you that you SHOULD burn for not following their beliefs??



It's been said here. Why do you think its crazy?


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## atlashunter (Jun 20, 2011)

1john4:4 said:


> I never said it meant anything to you. But for a non believer to tell a believer that he needs to quit believing in a fairy tail made up non sense it means everything... God knew that there would be non believers who scoffed at and made fun of those who do believe so that is His way of telling believers hey don't let them bring you down or get you upset; because it is they that perish for not believing.



Let's rephrase that. The MEN who wrote the bible knew there would be non-believers... Same for Jim Jones, Wayne Bent, David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite, etc. Not exactly rocket science to warn your cult members about those who reject the cult and reassure them that everyone but them will burn.


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## 1john4:4 (Jun 20, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> It's been said here. Why do you think its crazy?




For a true believer in Christ to tell a non believer that he (the non believer) deserves to burn is absurd!!! A true believer if he was to be in a line up with say seven others and was asked out of the eight; which one deserves to burn should look no further than himself. For the one that points a finger at another is no more than a religious tyrant!

Sorry if someone that claims the name of Christ has ever told this to you.


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## 1john4:4 (Jun 20, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Let's rephrase that. The MEN who wrote the bible knew there would be non-believers... Same for Jim Jones, Wayne Bent, David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite, etc. Not exactly rocket science to warn your cult members about those who reject the cult and reassure them that everyone but them will burn.




Lets rephrase that... The men who put to paper the inspired Word Of God


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## atlashunter (Jun 20, 2011)

1john4:4 said:


> For a true believer in Christ to tell a non believer that he (the non believer) deserves to burn is absurd!!! A true believer if he was to be in a line up with say seven others and was asked out of the eight; which one deserves to burn should look no further than himself. For the one that points a finger at another is no more than a religious tyrant!
> 
> Sorry if someone that claims the name of Christ has ever told this to you.



Ah so you think _everyone_ deserves to burn forever but those who believe won't. And you think that is some how better?


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## atlashunter (Jun 20, 2011)

1john4:4 said:


> Lets rephrase that... The men who put to paper the inspired Word Of God



No more reason to believe that is true than there is to believe the Lord of the Rings is divinely inspired.

I have to say, if there is a God, crediting him with the bible is a bit of an insult. There are much better works out there.


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## 1john4:4 (Jun 20, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Ah so you think _everyone_ deserves to burn forever but those who believe won't. And you think that is some how better?




Where did you get that from??? Sir are you ok? Read it again.

I said the BELIEVER should look no further than himself (as in the believer deserving punishment) NOT ANYONE ELSE... Come on man


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

What do you really mean by saying this.. You claim to be a true, truely saved, christian, yes? The people you are speaking with her claim that we are not following those teachings - hence, not saved. And then you quote your beloved scripture that says that because of not believing you perish. Perish meaning eternal suffering and burning in the lake of fire, correct? 

But you claim that you DO NOT SAY that people who don't believe in what you believe in will burn (not at the stake, but in a bad place after their physical death).. 

Tell me what I'm missing????



1john4:4 said:


> I never said it meant anything to you. But for a non believer to tell a believer that he needs to quit believing in a fairy tail made up non sense it means everything... God knew that there would be non believers who scoffed at and made fun of those who do believe so that is His way of telling believers hey don't let them bring you down or get you upset; because it is they that perish for not believing.


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2011)

We don't need to burn, death is good enough.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

Eh... "perish"ing is good enough.


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## Michael F. Gray (Jun 20, 2011)

Proverbs 29:1  "He that being often reproved, hardenth his neck shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy."


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## 1john4:4 (Jun 20, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> What do you really mean by saying this.. You claim to be a true, truely saved, christian, yes? The people you are speaking with her claim that we are not following those teachings - hence, not saved. And then you quote your beloved scripture that says that because of not believing you perish. Perish meaning eternal suffering and burning in the lake of fire, correct?
> 
> But you claim that you DO NOT SAY that people who don't believe in what you believe in will burn (not at the stake, but in a bad place after their physical death)..
> 
> Tell me what I'm missing????





The Op said believers were foolish to believe what they believe... The scripture tells us (believers) differently! Would I ever tell someone that they DESERVE to burn MORE than me? Never! My sin nailed Him to the tree. You tell me; what does the Word of God say will happen to those who do not repent and call on the name of the Lord?


Remember now, we are talking about God here. Not man! Not the forum! Not Christians! But God Himself! I will never condem you nor judge you as it is not my place.


So who deserves to burn the most between you and me? ME


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## atlashunter (Jun 20, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> Proverbs 29:1  "He that being often reproved, hardenth his neck shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy."



There you have it john.


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## 1john4:4 (Jun 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> So you claim to know what God knows. When did he tell you this?




How do you guys come up with all of this? Are you lawyers trying to twist things around lol


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2011)

1john4:4 said:


> How do you guys come up with all of this? Are you lawyers trying to twist things around lol



No law degree here. You "know" what you were taught from the contents of the bible. Had you been born and raised in Iran I suspect you would "know" what was taught from the Koran. Both were written by men. Your claim of "God Inspired" is because you have been taught to think that.


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2011)

1 Corinthians 7:13-14
If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

WHEW! I'm Good To Go.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

Ahh... I got it now. I can see you're saying you individually are no better of a person than anyone else. BUT you're still agreeing with what the bible says. You agree that those of us who don't fall in line and believe in a very similary way as you do, will burn. You're just saying you didn't say it yourself, but by believing it, you might as well be saying it yourself.



1john4:4 said:


> The Op said believers were foolish to believe what they believe... The scripture tells us (believers) differently! Would I ever tell someone that they DESERVE to burn MORE than me? Never! My sin nailed Him to the tree. You tell me; what does the Word of God say will happen to those who do not repent and call on the name of the Lord?
> 
> 
> Remember now, we are talking about God here. Not man! Not the forum! Not Christians! But God Himself! I will never condem you nor judge you as it is not my place.
> ...


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2011)

> 1 Corinthians 7:13-14
> If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
> 
> WHEW! I'm Good To Go.



Ohhhh maybe not....

    "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> 1 Corinthians 7:13-14
> If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
> 
> WHEW! I'm Good To Go.



Me too... For now


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

That's kind of hard for me to understand. Can we get someone else's interpretation of what someone wrote a thousand years and 10 languages ago/



bullethead said:


> Ohhhh maybe not....
> 
> "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10


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## bad0351 (Jun 20, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Of course you should defend your own beliefs...
> 
> I think the point was that as far as I know (because I don't look around there) we don't go stuffing our junk in the christian forum, yet we get bible versus and people telling us they feel sorry for us in every thread. Maybe I'm wrong about the point?



I was begining to think everyone missed my point......But lo and behold! someone gets it!
I come here to listen and learn from folks who believe the way I do.....not to have believers tell me how sorry they are and what I can do to rectify my situation.

I don't want to come to your spot and tell you how to live your life or what you must do so you wont suffer later...just extend me and others the same courtesy.

Spare me the bible verses.....PLEASE???


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## atlashunter (Jun 20, 2011)

1john4:4 said:


> The Op said believers were foolish to believe what they believe... The scripture tells us (believers) differently! Would I ever tell someone that they DESERVE to burn MORE than me? Never! My sin nailed Him to the tree. You tell me; what does the Word of God say will happen to those who do not repent and call on the name of the Lord?
> 
> 
> Remember now, we are talking about God here. Not man! Not the forum! Not Christians! But God Himself! I will never condem you nor judge you as it is not my place.
> ...



One more good reason to reject this nonsense. You really think you deserve to burn? Seriously?


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## rjcruiser (Jun 20, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Christians don't enjoy their lives?  News to me.



x2.  I'm enjoying my life.


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## 1john4:4 (Jun 20, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> x2.  I'm enjoying my life.





X3... Best decision I ever made. Best times I ever had was with my Christian friends too


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

And for me, stopping the nonsense was the best decision for me and my family. 

I've still had good time with "hardcore" (not thumping) type christians and with my believer friends. I don't mind the people.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> One more good reason to reject this nonsense. You really think you deserve to burn? Seriously?



I would venture to say he really does.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

I am on board with this mostly. The bible verses, eh... As others have said, it doesn't mean diddly here, so just spare us. But having the believers come in and give us their personal opinions, of course based on what the bible tells them for the most part, definitely makes the conversations more interesting.

I think that sets us apart from the other spiritual forums in a good way. I'm not going to get mad when stringmusic comes in with his comments. Specifically, he presents his views well for this forum. It's the bible verse only posts that aren't really necessary... and the people saying their heart is saddened that we are so lost. Those aren't necessary and really don't add any value to our discussions.



bad0351 said:


> I was begining to think everyone missed my point......But lo and behold! someone gets it!
> I come here to listen and learn from folks who believe the way I do.....not to have believers tell me how sorry they are and what I can do to rectify my situation.
> 
> I don't want to come to your spot and tell you how to live your life or what you must do so you wont suffer later...just extend me and others the same courtesy.
> ...


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

I would hate to push the ignore button and miss out on something 10 posts in the future that added value and helped to broaden my own horizons. Unless it's just obnoxious, I'd rather this forum be moderated a little more closely. I don't want the people to be banned from the site, because I'm sure they can add value elsewhere, but at least understanding that this isn't the place for some things...



CAL said:


> Sir,I respectfully disagree with you.I am not pushing my belief on anyone.I am only trying to show folks how good Christianity has been to me and my family.No one has to read anything that I post unless they wish tone of the good features about this forum is the "ignore" button.As a moderator I have recommended to many members to use this feature when having a problem with certain posters or and their post.I would like to recommend this feature to you also.Then if someones post offends you, you will not have to read anything a particular poster has written about anything.
> By the way,I would like to wish you a Happy Fathers Day also.


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## ambush80 (Jun 20, 2011)

gtparts said:


> If the Word of God doesn't mean diddly, nothing else does.



I propose that what you call the Word of God is not that at all. 



gtparts said:


> It might help to explore what gives "meaning" and what does not. Significance is important to us all. The position of the atheist, the agnostic, the deist, and even the Christian is to have a lasting impact on the world we live in and the people who inhabit it. God's Word has and will continue to transform the hearts of some men.
> The stuff you are peddling concludes in everyone being worm-bait, no more, no less. How's that for "meaning"?



And I think you are doing a disservice to humanity by attempting to persuade people to abandon their reason in favor of superstition and to get them to believe themselves worthless wretches.  Shame, shame, shame.


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## Blueridge (Jun 20, 2011)

bad0351 something to think about. Where do the turkeys you like to hunt come from, the bugs they eat , the trees they roost in ,the water they drink , etc. God made all of that, he tells us he did. No one else says that. God is all around you in the form of the natural world he created and you enjoy it. No Imaginary friend or fairytale character could have done that.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

ahhhhhhhhhhhhh


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## bad0351 (Jun 20, 2011)

Blueridge said:


> bad0351 something to think about. Where do the turkeys you like to hunt come from, the bugs they eat , the trees they roost in ,the water they drink , etc. God made all of that, he tells us he did. No one else says that. God is all around you in the form of the natural world he created and you enjoy it. No Imaginary friend or fairytale character could have done that.



Thats exactly what I have been trying to tell you!..." No Imaginary friend or fairytale character could have done that"

And as for the turkeys and such...they all come from the good earth...been here for millions of years in one form or another....(evolution)

When did god ever tell you anything?...let alone he created everything?


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## Ronnie T (Jun 20, 2011)

*To all the UNSAVED that come to this forum.*



bad0351 said:


> I would like you all to come to your senses .....please, and reconsider the folley of your choice to believe in an imaginary friend that will forgive all the bad you have done through your life on earth.....It aint gonna happen.
> If you have done bad things, you will live with it for the rest of your life....then you die and it all goes away...except for the people you have wronged, they will NEVER forgive OR forget what you did.
> I'm telling you this so you might enjoy your time here on earth while you can.
> Let go of this fairy tale while you can to avoid the disapointment you'll feel when you see the truth....you die and there is just nothing more.
> ...



I would like you all to come to your senses .....please, and reconsider the folley of your choice to come to a religious, spiritual forum to discuss your atheists views with the spiritual people who are here to discuss spiritual matters.  You want to discuss atheism without having to hear the Good News of Jesus Christ.....It aint gonna happen.

Wrong place!


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## gtparts (Jun 20, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I propose that what you call the Word of God is not that at all.
> 
> 
> 
> And I think you are doing a disservice to humanity by attempting to persuade people to abandon their reason in favor of superstition and to get them to believe themselves worthless wretches.  Shame, shame, shame.



Your proposal may seem reasonable to you. Since I have experienced the truth of it (the Word of God) in my life, I will not deny it. 

As for persuading people to abandon their reason, I would not do so. Human reason is the best manner in which to approach most every temporal puzzle or problem. I firmly believe that is what God intended. I believe He also desires that we temper that thinking in a manner consistent with the teachings of His Son. His life represents the filter through which all followers should pass all thoughts and actions.
  Using the human mind to reason through spiritual matters is the misapplication, using the wrong tool to comprehending them. Faulty intuition, when applied to spiritual truths, always leads away from the truth. God chose to make it counter-intuitive to confound those who relied on themselves. If you are out to do your "own thing", the things of God will never make sense. 

How can you get ahead, be a "winner", if you give of your resources and time to those who cannot benefit you in return?  It's crazy!
Or why devote yourself to warning others of the judgement to come, when it is not "properly advertised and documented"? Why, we can't even depend on it happening based on previous judgements or by some current reincarnation of the previously dead giving testimony. And how would we know, if such occurred, that what was said was the truth? Absolute lunacy!

The only thing that will open anyone's eyes to the truth is faith.... and I can't give it to you or sell it to you. I can't leave it to you in a will or convey it to you by any other means. You need to see the living Christ in others and desire to have the relationship that transforms. Everyone has some measure of faith. You either seek to have God add to it as you pursue the life God planned for you or you don't. 
Bottom line is this. You do not see the need or desirability to commit to that pursuit. That is the "blindness" that Satan has worked in your life.... and you don' want to "see".
So, if I quote Scripture, it is only because I would want someone to care enough about me to keep me from making such an eternally tragic choice.

And, btw, God thinks every person is of value or He wouldn't bother to redeem them one at a time through Jesus' death and resurrection. If He is of that mind, so am I.


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Your proposal may seem reasonable to you. Since I have experienced the truth of it (the Word of God) in my life, I will not deny it.
> 
> As for persuading people to abandon their reason, I would not do so. Human reason is the best manner in which to approach most every temporal puzzle or problem. I firmly believe that is what God intended. I believe He also desires that we temper that thinking in a manner consistent with the teachings of His Son. His life represents the filter through which all followers should pass all thoughts and actions.
> Using the human mind to reason through spiritual matters is the misapplication, using the wrong tool to comprehending them. Faulty intuition, when applied to spiritual truths, always leads away from the truth. God chose to make it counter-intuitive to confound those who relied on themselves. If you are out to do your "own thing", the things of God will never make sense.
> ...



Another one that knows what god thinks.


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## bad0351 (Jun 20, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I would like you all to come to your senses .....please, and reconsider the folley of your choice to come to a religious, spiritual forum to discuss your atheists views with the spiritual people who are here to discuss spiritual matters.  You want to discuss atheism without having to hear the Good News of Jesus Christ.....It aint gonna happen.
> 
> Wrong place!



Oh, I'm sorry....I thought this was the A. A. A. forum...I didnt know I was going to be read bible verses and told I will spend eternity in He11 if I dont come around to the christian way.

Maybe you could direct me to the "right place"??


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## gtparts (Jun 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Another one that knows what god thinks.



Yep! He told me in His love letter to me.


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## atlashunter (Jun 20, 2011)

gtparts said:


> The only thing that will open anyone's eyes to the truth is faith....



Which is why all of humanity comes to the same "truth" when they use faith. If faith didn't lead people to truth then we would have all sorts of different religions.


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## gtparts (Jun 20, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> Oh, I'm sorry....I thought this was the A. A. A. forum...I didn't know I was going to be read bible verses and told I will spend eternity in He11 if I don't come around to the christian way.
> 
> Maybe you could direct me to the "right place"??



Besides the fact that forum rules allow for participation by members in good standing in all sub-forums, you will note that the "door" was left open when "Apologetics" was included in the title. 

Things would be pretty dull here if you only got to discuss the spiritual things you don't believe in and the spiritual things of which you are unsure. 

P.S.
I added two apostrophes to your post above so you would appear more educated and reasoned. Spelling is not a "faith" issue. Hope that is not a problem for you.


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2011)

There is no one truth through faith because if there was EVERYONE that had faith in a higher being would be led to the same higher being. It is shown worldwide that is not the case. Like in the Near Death Experience examples on another thread, the Christians NDE's talk of heaven and angels, the Native American Indians talk of elders sitting around a fire, Hindu's have their own versions, and so on etc, ....why do they not all go to the pearly gates if there is only one truth?


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Yep! He told me in His love letter to me.



That I believe


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Besides the fact that forum rules allow for participation by members in good standing in all sub-forums, you will note that the "door" was left open when "Apologetics" was included in the title.
> 
> Things would be pretty dull here if you only got to discuss the spiritual things you don't believe in and the spiritual things of which you are unsure.
> 
> ...



Spiritual discussions are not only expected but looked forward to....the insertion of scripture as an only means of discussion is borderline pathetic.

Being that there are grammar and punctuation sticklers on here and some of those same guys like to recite rules for the site, please show us where it says correct spelling and punctuation are a must in order to participate.


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## Thanatos (Jun 20, 2011)

If believers keep feeding this troll he only comes back for more...


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## bullethead (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> If believers keep feeding this troll he only comes back for more...



Please be clear on who you are calling a troll. And why.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

I think there are 4 sub forums now specifically for this reason. I dont think anyone is saying keep out of all discussion. Plenty of people have great discussions without one lining a bible verse or saying they are sad that we are lost. It's insulting for me and humiliating for all of you that do it. Yep..




gtparts said:


> Besides the fact that forum rules allow for participation by members in good standing in all sub-forums, you will note that the "door" was left open when "Apologetics" was included in the title.
> 
> Things would be pretty dull here if you only got to discuss the spiritual things you don't believe in and the spiritual things of which you are unsure.
> 
> ...


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

Trolls?? Asking for something completely reasonable? 



Thanatos said:


> If believers keep feeding this troll he only comes back for more...


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## Blueridge (Jun 20, 2011)

In Genesis chap 1.  "they come  from the good Earth"
Yep , so where did the good Earth come from?
He made you too.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

Please stop?



Blueridge said:


> In Genesis chap 1.  "they come  from the good Earth"
> Yep , so where did the good Earth come from?
> He made you too.


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## atlashunter (Jun 20, 2011)

Men make gods, not the other way around. Genesis places the beginnings of humanity in the agricultural age. Doesn't work with what we already know about our origins.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I would like you all to come to your senses .....please, and reconsider the folley of your choice to come to a religious, spiritual forum to discuss your atheists views with the spiritual people who are here to discuss spiritual matters.  You want to discuss atheism without having to hear the Good News of Jesus Christ.....It aint gonna happen.
> 
> Wrong place!



Ahhh yes.. Sorry, I meant to post in the prayer request forum... If we were asking for help to let god grab us little lambs with his staff and throw us back in with the herd, then scripture one liners might be appropriate.


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## Blueridge (Jun 20, 2011)

Then where did man come from?  What One true god did any man ever make?  How do you call the heavens and the earth the agricultural age ????


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## Ronnie T (Jun 20, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> Oh, I'm sorry....I thought this was the A. A. A. forum...I didnt know I was going to be read bible verses and told I will spend eternity in He11 if I dont come around to the christian way.
> 
> Maybe you could direct me to the "right place"??



You should investigate the meaning of the third "A" of the A.A.A. forum. 
This forum is not a place for atheist to gather to discuss the stupidity of Christians.  The third "A".


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## gtparts (Jun 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> There is no one truth through faith because if there was EVERYONE that had faith in a higher being would be led to the same higher being.



Didn't say that just any old "faith" leads to truth, but Scripture makes it plain that all are held accountable on the basis of what they know of God and how they have responded,... not based on what they don't know of God. 

Regardless, I find it entirely possible that if the faith is misplaced (being deceived and misdirected), one could easily find oneself worshiping a false god. Satan can and does draw people away from the true and living God when he can. He even uses folks around this forum.

Faith (as in a general belief) doesn't determine the person, nature and character of God. It is exactly the opposite. God determines the true faith and rewards those who exercise that true faith.

The tail, so to speak, does not wag the dog.


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## Thanatos (Jun 20, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Trolls?? Asking for something completely reasonable?



The OP is not asking to debate anything. He calls us fools yet cant spell a simple word taught in elementary school. You guys should private message him and tell him to get his act together because he brings down your net worth as a group.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 20, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Men make gods, not the other way around. Genesis places the beginnings of humanity in the agricultural age. Doesn't work with what we already know about our origins.



Here's some interesting thoughts..............

http://www.equip.org/perspectives/creation-vs-evolution


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## gtparts (Jun 20, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I think there are 4 sub forums now specifically for this reason. I dont think anyone is saying keep out of all discussion. Plenty of people have great discussions without one lining a bible verse or saying they are sad that we are lost. It's insulting for me and humiliating for all of you that do it. Yep..



No insult intended and I can assure you that I am not humiliated. Why should I be humiliated for coming in this forum to present the Good News? Since I am concerned for lost people, I'll endure any humiliation you folks care to dish out. The things that break my Father's heart should necessarily break the hearts of all Christians. Whether you accept it or not, I am here for you.


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## emusmacker (Jun 20, 2011)

Atlashunter, is thatb your baby picture in your avatar? Just asking, cause obviously you've EVOLVED from that chimp stage. How do you explain that?  My baby pictures are of me as a HUMAN, how did you EVOLVE and I didn't?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> The OP is not asking to debate anything. He calls us fools yet cant spell a simple word taught in elementary school. You guys should private message him and tell him to get his act together because he brings down your net worth as a group.



There are plenty of those on your side too.. I can think of some mods that exemplify this for your group.. So let's just leave that part out. And you're correct. It didn't call for any debate. It was asking for this junk to stop. The one liner book references and my heart is sad for you. Save it for the other forums and be in the conversation for real if you want to.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

Is this enough for you Thanatos?



emusmacker said:


> Atlashunter, is thatb your baby picture in your avatar? Just asking, cause obviously you've EVOLVED from that chimp stage. How do you explain that?  My baby pictures are of me as a HUMAN, how did you EVOLVE and I didn't?


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## atlashunter (Jun 20, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> You should investigate the meaning of the third "A" of the A.A.A. forum.
> This forum is not a place for atheist to gather to discuss the stupidity of Christians.  The third "A".



There's a difference between apologetics and proselytizing.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

You bring some helpful conversation frequently. The people who post a verse and say they are concerned (not unlike you just did - but you continue with more than JUST that).. If they'd read more than a couple of words, understand where the "lost" people are coming from, they wouldn't humiliate themselves and look like the exact morons that we frequently think of many of them. Not all, but those, yes. 

Be concerned all you want. Contribute to the conversations in a way that's helpful. Quoting nothing but a verse is worthless to the people that are posting here frequently. It's just clutter to sift through that's completely off the topic of OUR threads. Isn't that what remaining ON TOPIC is about??



gtparts said:


> No insult intended and I can assure you that I am not humiliated. Why should I be humiliated for coming in this forum to present the Good News? Since I am concerned for lost people, I'll endure any humiliation you folks care to dish out. The things that break my Father's heart should necessarily break the hearts of all Christians. Whether you accept it or not, I am here for you.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

One more example Thanatos?

To the couple I've pointed out, I am doing this for Thanatos. You can use grammar and punctuation as you wish.



CAL said:


> Sir,I respectfully disagree with you.I am not pushing my belief on anyone.I am only trying to show folks how good Christianity has been to me and my family.No one has to read anything that I post unless they wish tone of the good features about this forum is the "ignore" button.As a moderator I have recommended to many members to use this feature when having a problem with certain posters or and their post.I would like to recommend this feature to you also.Then if someones post offends you, you will not have to read anything a particular poster has written about anything.
> By the way,I would like to wish you a Happy Fathers Day also.


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## atlashunter (Jun 20, 2011)

Blueridge said:


> Then where did man come from?  What One true god did any man ever make?  How do you call the heavens and the earth the agricultural age ????



Genesis 4:2 says Abel had flocks and Cain worked the soil. Adam was cursed with having to eat by toiling in the soil. So according to the bible, people were engaged in agriculture within one generation if not the very first generation of humans. If the bible is true, why does the archaeological record show humans living as hunter gatherers for thousands of years prior to the advent of agriculture?


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## atlashunter (Jun 20, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Didn't say that just any old "faith" leads to truth, but Scripture makes it plain that all are held accountable on the basis of what they know of God and how they have responded,... not based on what they don't know of God.
> 
> Regardless, I find it entirely possible that if the faith is misplaced (being deceived and misdirected), one could easily find oneself worshiping a false god. Satan can and does draw people away from the true and living God when he can. He even uses folks around this forum.
> 
> ...



The fact remains you're no different from the follower of any other faith claiming that they have the truth. They got to their conclusions the same way you got to yours. Primarily because of the culture they were born into and the religion they were indoctrinated from childhood to have. You say they are deceived but perhaps it is you.


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## Thanatos (Jun 20, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> One more example Thanatos?
> 
> To the couple I've pointed out, I am doing this for Thanatos. You can use grammar and punctuation as you wish.



I am sure we have some fleecing to do, but the OP is one of your worst representatives. I am sure if you asked these men they would say they are humble enough not to know "everything" and they are saved men by the Grace of God. We have faith in God even though we can not physically touch God. We are humble enough to bow down and submit to a higher power where our human perception and understanding fails us. I understand you do not want to live your life that way, but that is your choice and submission to God is ours. Dis_belief_ is your faith. We put our faith in Abba, Father.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 20, 2011)

I don't understand how that pertains to grammar and punctuation...

Dude, the way you just described it sounds worse than I've ever heard it described.....

Sure the OP wasn't polite. But it was just asking for the nonsense in our threads. We have no desire to see the things we talked about being posted. If you want to post a verse that you thing goes along with the conversation, tell us why other than it's the word of abba yahweh divinely inspired. We've heard it 1,000 times, we don't need to hear it again that you each feel sorry that we're going to burn.


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## atlashunter (Jun 20, 2011)

emusmacker said:


> Atlashunter, is thatb your baby picture in your avatar? Just asking, cause obviously you've EVOLVED from that chimp stage. How do you explain that?  My baby pictures are of me as a HUMAN, how did you EVOLVE and I didn't?



Nope emu, that would be our distant cousin. His DNA is only about 1.2% different from you and I.

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics


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## atlashunter (Jun 20, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Here's some interesting thoughts..............
> 
> http://www.equip.org/perspectives/creation-vs-evolution



Interesting? Maybe in the same sense that alchemy and astrology are interesting. It's laughable that anyone would suggest the fossil record is problematic for evolution and supports creation. I'm surprised he didn't throw something in there about the bacterial flagellum while he was at it.

The more I see Christians showing such a complete disregard for the truth, a willful ignorance of science, the more ashamed I am that I ever considered myself one. I'm more and more coming to the realization that many believers simply aren't as concerned with honesty and truth as they are in preserving their beliefs at all costs. It's pathetic.

I'll make a separate post tomorrow concerning the creation vs evolution debate and the outright lies and deception christians engage in on this issue.


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## Thanatos (Jun 20, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I don't understand how that pertains to grammar and punctuation...
> 
> Dude, the way you just described it sounds worse than I've ever heard it described.....
> 
> Sure the OP wasn't polite. But it was just asking for the nonsense in our threads. We have no desire to see the things we talked about being posted. If you want to post a verse that you thing goes along with the conversation, tell us why other than it's the word of abba yahweh divinely inspired. We've heard it 1,000 times, we don't need to hear it again that you each feel sorry that we're going to burn.



If a man does not have the knowledge to spell surely he can be wrong about his belief, or lack thereof in God. 

It is fitting that my description is the worse you have ever heard.


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## speechless33759 (Jun 20, 2011)

Since becoming a Christian I have no regrets other than the fact that I wished I would have given my life to Christ sooner. My life before was miserable. I would rather have my "folly" and have a better quality of life, than live my previous miserable life.


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## shakey gizzard (Jun 21, 2011)

Without Faith there is no Hope!


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## atlashunter (Jun 21, 2011)

shakey gizzard said:


> Without Faith there is no Hope!



Hope for what?


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## shakey gizzard (Jun 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Hope for what?



Something better!


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## atlashunter (Jun 21, 2011)

Really? It's a good thing the folks who developed all the things that make our lives better every day didn't feel that way.


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Didn't say that just any old "faith" leads to truth, but Scripture makes it plain that all are held accountable on the basis of what they know of God and how they have responded,... not based on what they don't know of God.
> 
> Regardless, I find it entirely possible that if the faith is misplaced (being deceived and misdirected), one could easily find oneself worshiping a false god. Satan can and does draw people away from the true and living God when he can. He even uses folks around this forum.
> 
> ...



I am impressed that you not only Know what god thinks but now you Know that Satan uses people around this forum and you can say this without providing ONE credible shred of proof. Please tell us who is under Satan's grasp so we can have a mass internet exorcism ASAP to save the poor buggers. 

All the rest is based off your beliefs, which is fine, but because of your upbringing, country, state, county and town, you are more apt to think like that. Scripture only has clout with other like minded people that believe in scripture.  To constantly cite it or refer to it to people who do not believe in it has worn out it's welcome long ago. If you decided to use Doctor Seuss quotes, it would sound just as nonsensical....in fact maybe less.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> The OP is not asking to debate anything. He calls us fools yet cant spell a simple word taught in elementary school. You guys should private message him and tell him to get his act together because he brings down your net worth as a group.



Keep your spell check on.


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## Jeff Phillips (Jun 21, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I just find it comical that so many people come here to try and change the way a person believes to reflect the values and beliefs of themselves.



Just like you did yourself in the OP?


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## stringmusic (Jun 21, 2011)

I might be wrong, but I dont see very much Scripture being posted in this thread or any others in this sub-forum?


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

shakey gizzard said:


> Without Faith there is no Hope!



I actually think you are right.

We are mortal. We ARE going to die. If we sat around and thought about it hour after hour we'd go insane. It is globally recognized that mankind HOPES there is something better out there that lasts for all eternity because we cannot fathom that THIS is it. We want more purpose to our lives, we want it to continue forever. We HAVE to conjure up faith in invisible beings (worldwide) so that we have some sort of HOPE that after death it is all still going to be ok and that we will continue to not only live, but live BETTER! I guess we will all be in the prime of our earthly lives forever when we pass, not an infant or crotchety old man.

Faith is Hope. No doubt. Figments in our minds that keep us occupied until the inevitable happens.


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I might be wrong, but I dont see very much Scripture being posted in this thread or any others in this sub-forum?



You missed it.

There are some posts that do not lend a word of conversation, just a scripture verse......as if someone that does not believe is going to read that and suddenly believe. The people that post those things are one of the reasons why I find religion so stomach turning. If those verses were worth anything to me, I'd still believe. Quoting scripture to non believers does not bond us together, it drives the wedge between us even further.

P.S.

You missed an apostrophe in the word "don't" above. I don't want Thanatos sending you a PM telling you that you are a disgrace to the believers because of something that has nothing to do with anything, or worse yet calling you out on the main forum to do it. Please fix it before he catches it and you are cast out.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

It's there. All over... It's not every post of course...  

The last A.... Needs some reason along with the verse to be apologetic if I'm not wrong (which I very well could be)... And apologetic isn't that you feel sorry for the lost. So bring the bible verses with some reason that has reason, not "because the bible told me so." A 3 year old can recite that in a song. 



stringmusic said:


> I might be wrong, but I dont see very much Scripture being posted in this thread or any others in this sub-forum?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> If a man does not have the knowledge to spell surely he can be wrong about his belief, or lack thereof in God.
> 
> It is fitting that my description is the worse you have ever heard.



He surely can be wrong. As can I... and I generally type decently. I don't claim that I know all of the answers to anything we discuss here. I claim that there are many more logical possibilities than what I was taught the first 20 years of my life.

I guess it is fitting, but seriously, I have never heard it sound more belittling to a person than that. You call it humble.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Interesting? Maybe in the same sense that alchemy and astrology are interesting. It's laughable that anyone would suggest the fossil record is problematic for evolution and supports creation. I'm surprised he didn't throw something in there about the bacterial flagellum while he was at it.
> 
> The more I see Christians showing such a complete disregard for the truth, a willful ignorance of science, the more ashamed I am that I ever considered myself one. I'm more and more coming to the realization that many believers simply aren't as concerned with honesty and truth as they are in preserving their beliefs at all costs. It's pathetic.
> 
> I'll make a separate post tomorrow concerning the creation vs evolution debate and the outright lies and deception christians engage in on this issue.



Truthfully, we, and the experts, prove that we are all idiots when it comes to placing in order the things that occurred that long ago!!!!!!!!
That's why the opinions change fairly often.
We're even now deciding how long other planets have exixted.  How pathetic can that be????
Really.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 21, 2011)

bullethead said:


> You missed it.
> 
> There are some posts that do not lend a word of conversation, just a scripture verse......as if someone that does not believe is going to read that and suddenly believe. The people that post those things are one of the reasons why I find religion so stomach turning. If those verses were worth anything to me, I'd still believe. Quoting scripture to non believers does not bond us together, it drives the wedge between us even further.
> 
> ...



You aren't going to find a believer that won't posts scripture from time to time.
If you hang around here you're going to have lots of stomach problems if that's the case.

If you won't discuss things I don't believe in, then I won't discuss things that you don't believe it...... see how that works?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

No, I don't see how that works?? I won't discuss things you don't believe in? I discuss that stuff all the time... And yes, you discuss things I don't believe in all the time.


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## atlashunter (Jun 21, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Truthfully, we, and the experts, prove that we are all idiots when it comes to placing in order the things that occurred that long ago!!!!!!!!
> That's why the opinions change fairly often.
> We're even now deciding how long other planets have exixted.  How pathetic can that be????
> Really.



I've never heard an expert claim that agriculture is as old as humanity. Have you? Can you cite any evidence for such a claim?


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## atlashunter (Jun 21, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> You aren't going to find a believer that won't posts scripture from time to time.
> If you hang around here you're going to have lots of stomach problems if that's the case.
> 
> If you won't discuss things I don't believe in, then I won't discuss things that you don't believe it...... see how that works?



Scripture is seldom used in debate between prominent apologists and atheists. There is a reason for that. It doesn't offer any common ground for discussion. It would be like a muslim explaining how wrong you are about God and the afterlife by citing the koran.

That said, there are good discussions on here about the bible and what it says and what is meant, if it is true, etc that I find interesting. Really those discussions belong more in the christian forum than the AAA forum but we all know what happens when a nonbeliever discusses scripture over there. They come under personal attack until the thread is deleted. Have to protect that flock from servants of satan lurking around here.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

I think we'd have 25% fewer posts if we got ride of the useless stuff... Good..

I think we'd only have half of what's left if we banned bible verses completely from this forum. You're right Atlas, some of us can have good disussions about them and with them. Those are fine and dandy.


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## Nicodemus (Jun 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Scripture is seldom used in debate between prominent apologists and atheists. There is a reason for that. It doesn't offer any common ground for discussion. It would be like a muslim explaining how wrong you are about God and the afterlife by citing the koran.
> 
> That said, there are good discussions on here about the bible and what it says and what is meant, if it is true, etc that I find interesting. Really those discussions belong more in the christian forum than the AAA forum but we all know what happens when a nonbeliever discusses scripture over there. They come under personal attack until the thread is deleted. Have to protect that flock from servants of satan lurking around here.





Some of you have been protected as well. You just don`t realize it. So don`t start that kind of talk. You don`t know all the facts.


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## emusmacker (Jun 21, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> Some of you have been protected as well. You just don`t realize it. So don`t start that kind of talk. You don`t know all the facts.



If the whole AAA forum was deleted it would be much better> Only lose maybe 3 or 4 posters.   Even satan believed in God.  

What's funny to me, is that people will believe history books, but not the Bible.  Why?  No one was there when the signing of the Declaration of Independence took place. So how do we know those signatures are true?


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## emusmacker (Jun 21, 2011)

Oh yea, Atlas, how long ago was that DNA changed into what we are, and what will we look like in the future. You do know AVATAR was a movie don't you?


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## ambush80 (Jun 21, 2011)

emusmacker said:


> If the whole AAA forum was deleted it would be much better> Only lose maybe 3 or 4 posters.   Even satan believed in God.
> 
> What's funny to me, is that people will believe history books, but not the Bible.  Why?  No one was there when the signing of the Declaration of Independence took place. So how do we know those signatures are true?



It's the extraordinary claims made by The Bible that make it incredible.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

emusmacker said:


> If the whole AAA forum was deleted it would be much better> Only lose maybe 3 or 4 posters.   Even satan believed in God.
> 
> What's funny to me, is that people will believe history books, but not the Bible.  Why?  No one was there when the signing of the Declaration of Independence took place. So how do we know those signatures are true?



Many people that signed it, and saw it signed, wrote about it RIGHT THEN.. That's a pretty big difference... and like Ambush said, if they were doing some nearly inconcievable maybe it would be harder to believe... They weren't. They were writing on a piece of paper. Lots of people did that... I can see people doing that today. 

Satan believed in god? Past tense meaning he doesn't any more?


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## atlashunter (Jun 21, 2011)

emusmacker said:


> If the whole AAA forum was deleted it would be much better



You _would_ like that wouldn't you? 



emusmacker said:


> Oh yea, Atlas, how long ago was that DNA changed into what we are, and what will we look like in the future. You do know AVATAR was a movie don't you?



I took the time to answer your questions before and you refused to take the time to look at them. That tells me you really have no interest in the answers to your questions. It's not worth my time to continue spoon feeding information to someone who persists in asking questions that they don't want answered. So until you address the previous answers I've provided with respect to evolution, I'll consider questions from you purely rhetorical.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

emusmacker said:


> Oh yea, Atlas, how long ago was that DNA changed into what we are, and what will we look like in the future. You do know AVATAR was a movie don't you?



You do know that all you believe about god is just written in a book?


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## atlashunter (Jun 21, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> Some of you have been protected as well. You just don`t realize it. So don`t start that kind of talk. You don`t know all the facts.



I'm sure that's true Nic. I don't question the moderation and if I did I wouldn't bring it here. I know the rules. Just the first time I ever saw someone get an embarassing thread removed by resorting to personal attacks...


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## Blueridge (Jun 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Genesis 4:2 says Abel had flocks and Cain worked the soil. Adam was cursed with having to eat by toiling in the soil. So according to the bible, people were engaged in agriculture within one generation if not the very first generation of humans. If the bible is true, why does the archaeological record show humans living as hunter gatherers for thousands of years prior to the advent of agriculture?



Gee you skipped 3 chapters of Genesis.  The Bible is true and a lot of time passed and stuff happened between then and Abel. The Bible does not go into great detail about what God made but that God did indeed make it all. Fossils and "humans" other people call them "hominids" fit in there too as evident of the fossils that are discovered. Doesn't change the fact that God made it all.
Adam / Man was made in God's own image, that is a fact just like it is a fact that God created everything . He says he did, no where else is that statement made and it is the truth.  
You did not answer my question earlier; what one true god did a man ever make?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

No one true god... many different gods, including the one you believe in.

You are saying it's fact merely because "the bible tells you so." If that's all you've got, it doesn't stand to anything here.


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## Blueridge (Jun 21, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> No one true god... many different gods, including the one you believe in.
> 
> You are saying it's fact merely because "the bible tells you so." If that's all you've got, it doesn't stand to anything here.



The fact is that it does stand here , you just choose not to believe it. Thats your choice.
What man created God ? The God who created the heavens and the earth and who created that man ? Surely you know don't you?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

I know that men, over and over, have created gods that you don't believe in.. Surely you know that. Do you believe that Zues was a god? Do you believe that the sun is a god? Nope.. You choose not to believe that. There aren't poeple in the christian forum telling you you're wrong because you don't believe. I don't believe those things either.

Plenty of men wrote the words in the bible? Surely you believe that. You can say that's a fact, easily. Merely saying that it's divinely inspired, that it says that it's divinely inspired, does not make it so. Men could have just as easily wrote every bit with no divine inspiration. It makes it no more divinely inspired than the countless other faiths and gods that other cultures and religions feel are divine.


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## Blueridge (Jun 21, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I know that men, over and over, have created gods that you don't believe in.. Surely you know that. Do you believe that Zues was a god? Do you believe that the sun is a god? Nope.. You choose not to believe that. There aren't poeple in the christian forum telling you you're wrong because you don't believe. I don't believe those things either.
> 
> Plenty of men wrote the words in the bible? Surely you believe that. You can say that's a fact, easily. Merely saying that it's divinely inspired, that it says that it's divinely inspired, does not make it so. Men could have just as easily wrote every bit with no divine inspiration. It makes it no more divinely inspired than the countless other faiths and gods that other cultures and religions feel are divine.



Then how do you explain creation , nature , what ever you want to call it?? Its explained in the Bible very well and is not just happen stance.  That is one way I know.
You can choose either way thats your choice. 
Not forcing you either way , just sharing.


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## Blueridge (Jun 21, 2011)

One other thing before I go ; what did those other gods you describe ever do??  I know what my God did , its all around me and he told me he did it .


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

There are plenty of stories about what they did. Take for example the people who think the sun is a god, or there is a god of the sun. I think you can easily see what the sun does. You don't need to read about it. Just because you haven't read about them doesn't mean they aren't just as compelling as the bible. 

There are many explanations. I don't need to list them. They've been discussed in a lot more detail in other threads. Again, you're just using, "because the bible tells me so."


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

Let me be a little more detailed... There are plenty of POSSIBLE explanations. Which do include a supreme being conjuring it all.


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

Blueridge said:


> Gee you skipped 3 chapters of Genesis.  The Bible is true and a lot of time passed and stuff happened between then and Abel. The Bible does not go into great detail about what God made but that God did indeed make it all. Fossils and "humans" other people call them "hominids" fit in there too as evident of the fossils that are discovered. Doesn't change the fact that God made it all.
> Adam / Man was made in God's own image, that is a fact just like it is a fact that God created everything . He says he did, no where else is that statement made and it is the truth.
> You did not answer my question earlier; what one true god did a man ever make?



The reason that the bible is so spotty is because there was MANY other writings of the times done to tell of the times. Unfortunately the powers that be took it upon themselves to include or not include or omit the stuff that didn't go along with the story they wanted portrayed. 

Adam was made in God's image, what about Lilith? Ancient writings of the time include her but she is oddly left out of the bible.

Also if the bible is so exact please explain how the story of Noah's Ark is real. How did 8 people repopulate the entire Earth in less than 4000 years, AND how did their children turn into the various races we now have AND why is our DNA not traceable back to those 8 people? I mean they were the only people left on the planet right?

YEAH YEAH YEAH, I KNOW.....the lord works in mysterious ways especially when the bible can't.


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

Blueridge said:


> The fact is that it does stand here , you just choose not to believe it. Thats your choice.
> What man created God ? The God who created the heavens and the earth and who created that man ? Surely you know don't you?



YOU created God. He created God, anyone that thought that SOMETHING just like us but BETTER HAS to exist created God. It, He, She ONLY exists in your minds. Out of all the believers here you could draw YOUR VERSION of him on a piece of paper and it would not look like any other believers version because he is what YOU want or need him to be to make you comfortable. Just because your buying the baloney doesn't make it the only sandwich.


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## stringmusic (Jun 21, 2011)

bullethead said:


> The reason that the bible is so spotty is because there was MANY other writings of the times done to tell of the times. Unfortunately the powers that be took it upon themselves to include or not include or omit the stuff that didn't go along with the story they wanted portrayed.
> 
> Adam was made in God's image, what about Lilith? Ancient writings of the time include her but she is oddly left out of the bible.
> 
> ...



If no one can explain it to you, does that make it untrue?


----------



## stringmusic (Jun 21, 2011)

bullethead said:


> YOU created God. He created God, anyone that thought that SOMETHING just like us but BETTER HAS to exist created God. It, He, She ONLY exists in your minds. Out of all the believers here you could draw YOUR VERSION of him on a piece of paper and it would not look like any other believers version because he is what YOU want or need him to be to make you comfortable. *Just because your buying the baloney doesn't make it the only sandwich*.



 Thats just funny, I dont care who you are.


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

Blueridge said:


> One other thing before I go ; what did those other gods you describe ever do??  I know what my God did , its all around me and he told me he did it .



I'd say he has a run for his money, these incredible wonders did the same thing!

    African contexts:
        Mbombo of Bakuba mythology, who vomited out the world upon feeling a stomach ache;
        Egyptian mythology
            Atum in Ennead, whose semen becomes the primal components of the universe
            Ptah creating the universe by speaking
        Unkulunkulu in Zulu mythology
    American contexts:
        Nanabozho (Great Rabbit,) Ojibway deity, a shape-shifter and a cocreator of the world.[2][3]
        The goddess Coatlique in Aztec mythology;
        Viracocha in Inca mythology;
        A trickster deity in the form of a Raven in Inuit mythology;
    Asian contexts:
        El or the Elohim of Canaanite mythology (see Genesis creation myth)
        Esege Malan in Mongolian mythology, king of the skies
        Kamuy in Ainu mythology, who built the world on the back of a trout;
        Izanagi and Izanami in Japanese mythology, who churned the ocean with a spear, creating the islands of Japan
        Marduk killing Tiamat in the Babylonian Enuma Elish
        Vishvakarman in Vedic mythology, responsible for the creation of the universe (while in later Puranic period, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are for creation, maintenance and destruction, respectively)
    European contexts:
        The sons of Borr slaying the primeval giant Ymir in Norse mythology
        Rod in Slavic mythology.
    Oceanic contexts:
        Ranginui, the Sky Father, and Papatuanuku, the Earth Mother in Māori mythology


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

Here's a good read....but only if you read it!

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~parkx032/CY-CREAT.html


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> If no one can explain it to you, does that make it untrue?



No there are things that are unexplainable and there are things that are ridiculous. 8 people couldn't repopulate the world and it really is that simple.


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

Blueridge said:


> Then how do you explain creation , nature , what ever you want to call it?? Its explained in the Bible very well and is not just happen stance.  That is one way I know.
> You can choose either way thats your choice.
> Not forcing you either way , just sharing.



Creation is explained in EVERY religion!!! Take a look, crack a book, surf the net. Expand your knowledge to what else is out there. You do not have to change your beliefs but you sure as darn well will see that the claims of the bible are not exclusive to the bible.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> If no one can explain it to you, does that make it untrue?



Definitely not. Especially when you consider who is trying to explain it sometimes 

But seriously, it just makes it seem MUCH less than possible.


----------



## stringmusic (Jun 21, 2011)

bullethead said:


> No there are things that are unexplainable and there are things that are ridiculous. 8 people couldn't repopulate the world and it really is that simple.



Do you find that most things that cannot be explained are ridiculous?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

bullethead said:


> No there are things that are unexplainable and there are things that are ridiculous. 8 people couldn't repopulate the world and it really is that simple.



Well.. I might believe if I was given super reporoductive abilities.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Do you find that most things that cannot be explained are rediculous?



I find that the story of Noah's Ark is ridiculous.

(watch your spelling bro, I'd hate for you to be named as an embarrassment for your side by You Know Who!!!)


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Well.. I might believe if I was given super reporoductive abilities.



TRU DAT! But your children would have your DNA.


----------



## stringmusic (Jun 21, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Definitely not. Especially when you consider who is trying to explain it sometimes
> 
> But seriously, it just makes it seem* MUCH less than possible*.



Take a second and believe in God and what the Bible says about Him. Do you think He could make this happen?


----------



## bad0351 (Jun 21, 2011)

First, I see my education was brought into question here.
I am not ashamed to say 99% of the folks that frequent this forum are far more educated than me.
I have a high school diploma and that is it.....I never had the means nor desire to attend college so have worked very hard to take care of my family since 1973.
I am part of what is sometimes called the "backbone" of America.
And if I were a betting man...(and I'm not) My money is on the hands of these two pencil pushers are as soft as a baby bottom.

Second, let me assure you all I am not "trolling" here to stir the pot and cause problems...I am truly interested in this forum.

Third, Thanatos and gtparts have used this ugly display and shown what they are truly all about with this personal attack.
(don't hold your breath waiting to get into your heaven fellas)
If anyone would like to pm me and ask that I refrain from posting here further based on my education level...let me know and I will stop.
Anyone but the all knowing 2 here.

I see this all to much from bible toting elitest "christians"
And they all wonder why they make me want to puke.


----------



## atlashunter (Jun 21, 2011)

Blueridge said:


> Gee you skipped 3 chapters of Genesis.  The Bible is true and a lot of time passed and stuff happened between then and Abel.



Hardly any time at all in comparison to the paleolithic and mesolithic time periods that pre-date the advent of agriculture. Genesis says Adam was 130 years old when his son Seth was born.

Genesis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, [said she], hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth

So you're talking about less than 130 years according to the bible into human history they were farming and herding animals.

So how does one square the biblical account with the time line that shows humans progressing from scavengers to hunter-gatherers to plant and animal domestication?




Blueridge said:


> The Bible does not go into great detail about what God made but that God did indeed make it all. Fossils and "humans" other people call them "hominids" fit in there too as evident of the fossils that are discovered. Doesn't change the fact that God made it all.
> Adam / Man was made in God's own image, that is a fact just like it is a fact that God created everything . He says he did, no where else is that statement made and it is the truth.



You can claim that a God made it all. You can even do so without a shred of evidence to support the claim. No one could disprove such a claim. But when you start going further than that with the details given in Genesis we can say with a pretty high degree of certainty that the Genesis account isn't how it happened.




Blueridge said:


> You did not answer my question earlier; what one true god did a man ever make?



Every god known to man was made by man. Even if you think Yahweh represents the one true god, historically speaking, Israelites conception of Yahweh is one that evolved over time. You should check out A History of God by Karen Armstrong.

Now it seems you think that of all the thousands of gods men have conjured up and believed in, sometimes to the point of engaging in the human sacrifice of thousands in a single day, that all of them are indeed mythological figures except for one. One of them is real. My question is what method have you used to separate that one fleck of pepper from the mountain of gnat dung? I hope it's a method that differs from all those others who have found their own flecks of pepper that you recognize as dung.


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Take a second and believe in God and what the Bible says about Him. Do you think He could make this happen?



Then yes he could make that happen along with 100's of other gods that I have read about.


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## stringmusic (Jun 21, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I find that the story of Noah's Ark is ridiculous.
> 
> (*watch your spelling bro, I'd hate for you to be named as an embarrassment for your side by You Know Who!!!)*



ALL my post are going to need editing.


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> First, I see my education was brought into question here.
> I am not ashamed to say 99% of the folks that frequent this forum are far more educated than me.
> I have a high school diploma and that is it.....I never had the means nor desire to attend college so have worked very hard to take care of my family since 1973.
> I am part of what is sometimes called the "backbone" of America.
> ...



Frum Won Hi-Skooler too anuther, Welkum!


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Take a second and believe in God and what the Bible says about Him. Do you think He could make this happen?



With the assumptions that you'd get along with believing the bible in all of its glory, yes, plausible.


----------



## stringmusic (Jun 21, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Then yes he could make that happen along with 100's of other gods that I have read about.



Wow, we are making our way along here, because I dont have a good explanation of the Noahs Ark story doesn't make it not true, and now God could have made it all happen.

Now all you have to do is figure out which God you hold loyalty to, you diest you

I'll help you out with which one to choose


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> ALL my post are going to need editing.



I know, I know. I just really like the discussions with many of you guys and I'd hate to see you labeled as uneducated and an embarrassment by one of your own. According to him your posts cannot be taken credibly if you cannot spell or punctuate properly.


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## stringmusic (Jun 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Wow, we are making our way along here, because I dont have a good explanation of the Noahs Ark story doesn't make it not true, and now God could have made it all happen.
> 
> Now all you have to do is figure out which God you hold loyalty to, you diest you
> 
> I'll help you out with which one to choose





TripleXBullies said:


> With the assumptions that you'd get along with believing the bible in all of its glory,* yes, plausible*.



You too!
Ol' Bullethead and TripleXBullies, two diest in a pod


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Wow, we are making our way along here, because I dont have a good explanation of the Noahs Ark story doesn't make it not true, and now God could have made it all happen.
> 
> Now all you have to do is figure out which God you hold loyalty to, you diest you
> 
> I'll help you out with which one to choose



Now now now, you asked for me to take a second and believe( I read it as PRETEND) that the God in the bible was real. Sure IF he was real, but Sure if any of the gods were real. Even God knows of the others Gods so he is not exclusive in being God.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> You too!
> Ol' Bullethead and TripleXBullies, two diest in a pod



If there is a god that is/was an all poweful all knowing, all surpeme, sure, he could do anything he wanted.... There's one other big BUT I have with that... If I assume the bible is completely true, there's a bunch that I REALLY dislike about the same guy that can poof a bunch of animals in to a boat and give me inhuman reproductive powers.


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> You should investigate the meaning of the third "A" of the A.A.A. forum.
> This forum is not a place for atheist to gather to discuss the stupidity of Christians.  The third "A".



(ə-pŏl'ə-jĕt'ĭks) pronunciation
n. (used with a sing. verb)

    The branch of theology that is concerned with defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines.
    Formal argumentation in defense of something, such as a position or system.


Definition: Christian Apologetics

Apologetics - from the Greek "apologia," a legal term meaning "defense" - is the branch of Christian theology concerned with the intelligent presentation and defense of the historical Christian faith. 

The goal of Apologetics  is to persuasively answer honest objections that keep people from faith in Jesus Christ.


I could not find where it says use scripture as a means to prove Christianity.

Constantly quoting scripture to people who do not believe in scripture is akin to throwing water balloons when out of ammo in a gunfight. I guess if it is all you have left you might as well use it but the other side knows the fight is over.


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## atlashunter (Jun 21, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> With the assumptions that you'd get along with believing the bible in all of its glory, yes, plausible.



Yep. Plausible but not probable. What you have to believe here is that an all powerful being wanted to kill virtually all living creatures on the planet. And you have to believe that he wanted to spare just enough creatures to once again repopulate the planet. What's the point of this whole exercise? To punish the people for their wickedness. I've always asked why you would kill every man, woman and child on the planet but made sure to repopulate the planet with more wicked men, women and children. What exactly is that supposed to achieve? Never have had someone offer a good answer to that question. You have to believe that even though this being could snap his fingers and annihilate everyone that he wanted dead he instead restricts himself to using natural means, drowning. He could miraculously spare those he wanted spared by supernatural means. Does he? Nope. Have to use natural means. Get a man to build a boat to save a handful of people and animals of each kind to repopulate the earth. Could have just wiped everything out and supernaturally repopulated the earth with whatever he wanted whereever he wanted. Does he do that? No, the people and animals will repopulate the earth by natural means.

And yet with all of this self restriction to natural means you still have the problem of what the predatory animals would eat after the flood without causing a mass extinction and how the various species would overcome their geographical distribution to get to the boat and then overcome it once more to get back to their original locations around the planet. Now this truly requires a miracle with no natural explanation. This also happens to be a detail that a man who made up the story a few thousand years ago and only aware of a small region of the earth wouldn't have known about. The one detail of the story lacking explanation is the one we would expect an ancient story teller to be unaware of.

To believe the story you have to believe this is just a coincidence and those miracles did occur even though no mention is made of them and even though it runs against the general theme of the story in which God uses natural means to achieve his goal. A goal that in hindsight appears completely pointless.

I tried for years to get myself to believe it but couldn't do it. I cared too much about whether my beliefs were actually true.


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

A flood, fire, burning bush, snakes are about all the "special effects" the writers of the times could conjure up.

Like you said Atlas, had it been written that "with a snap of two fingers, all creatures but two of each kind(or 7 or however many the bible says at one time or another) plus eight people were left to inhabit the earth in God's good grace" might be more powerful of an effect. Making an ark so small that it could not hold the food, let alone the animals that were supposed to be on it shows the limited knowledge of the writers.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

Aside from not probable, there is too much of the god in the bible that disgusts me. The guy that has the power to stop suffering of innocent things, but uses suffering of innocent things for other reasons and attemps to justify it and have people believe he is merciful. That's definitely not what it sounds like to me...

Pretty much everything you cited here has some sore of justification in the bible... and since we're pretending it's all true... sure, plausible. The greatest of which - he works in mysterious ways... Pretend through that 



atlashunter said:


> Yep. Plausible but not probable. What you have to believe here is that an all powerful being wanted to kill virtually all living creatures on the planet. And you have to believe that he wanted to spare just enough creatures to once again repopulate the planet. What's the point of this whole exercise? To punish the people for their wickedness. I've always asked why you would kill every man, woman and child on the planet but made sure to repopulate the planet with more wicked men, women and children. What exactly is that supposed to achieve? Never have had someone offer a good answer to that question. You have to believe that even though this being could snap his fingers and annihilate everyone that he wanted dead he instead restricts himself to using natural means, drowning. He could miraculously spare those he wanted spared by supernatural means. Does he? Nope. Have to use natural means. Get a man to build a boat to save a handful of people and animals of each kind to repopulate the earth. Could have just wiped everything out and supernaturally repopulated the earth with whatever he wanted whereever he wanted. Does he do that? No, the people and animals will repopulate the earth by natural means.
> 
> And yet with all of this self restriction to natural means you still have the problem of what the predatory animals would eat after the flood without causing a mass extinction and how the various species would overcome their geographical distribution to get to the boat and then overcome it once more to get back to their original locations around the planet. Now this truly requires a miracle with no natural explanation. This also happens to be a detail that a man who made up the story a few thousand years ago and only aware of a small region of the earth wouldn't have known about. The one detail of the story lacking explanation is the one we would expect an ancient story teller to be unaware of.
> 
> ...


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## Thanatos (Jun 21, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I find that the story of Noah's Ark is ridiculous.
> 
> (watch your spelling bro, I'd hate for you to be named as an embarrassment for your side by You Know Who!!!)
> 
> ...



Again, I will be the first one to stand up and say that my grammar and spelling are crap. But! I will be the last one to stand up and call someone a fool for their beliefs.

The point has always been human's have limited knowledge. It is ironic for a man to call another man a fool and he make himself out a fool in the process.


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## Thanatos (Jun 21, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> First, I see my education was brought into question here.
> I am not ashamed to say 99% of the folks that frequent this forum are far more educated than me.
> I have a high school diploma and that is it.....I never had the means nor desire to attend college so have worked very hard to take care of my family since 1973.
> I am part of what is sometimes called the "backbone" of America.
> ...



You spelled elitist wrong.


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> Again, I will be the first one to stand up and say that my grammar and spelling are crap. But! I will be the last one to stand up and call someone a fool for their beliefs.
> 
> The point has always been human's have limited knowledge. It is ironic for a man to call another man a fool and he make himself out a fool in the process.




So then by your own standards your posts can not be taken seriously because of spelling and grammar.

And the beliefs thing, I think this was to me...


Thanatos said:


> It is hard to believe because you are nothing more than a dew drop evaporating in the morning sun. Your questions are absolutely meaningless no matter how important YOU think they are. The quicker you learn this the less abrasive you will be to what people believe or what they choose not to believe.



But hey first, last, whatever, as long as you said it you then cannot say you wouldn't say it.


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## bad0351 (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> You spelled elitist wrong.



I'm bored with this foolishness your spewing......can't you change it up a little and say something nasty about my mom......come on thanasoft......is this all you got?


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## Nicodemus (Jun 21, 2011)

Alright, let`s not get mean. This applies to everybody.


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## gtparts (Jun 21, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Spiritual discussions are not only expected but looked forward to....the insertion of scripture as an only means of discussion is borderline pathetic.
> 
> Being that there are grammar and punctuation sticklers on here and some of those same guys like to recite rules for the site, please show us where it says correct spelling and punctuation are a must in order to participate.



First, being a Christian, I find the use of Scripture alone to be quite effective in most circumstances, but I understand that you would appreciate some further dialog. God is not limited to Scripture as a means of refuting the lies and misunderstandings of the secular world. For the most part, you will find that I am not one of those people, any way.

As for the grammar and punctuation matter, for me, it is not that my education is more significant than others, and especially as a Christian, it is not a point of superiority.

All religious and theological things aside, I find people who do not care to take the time to use correct English, spelling, and punctuation on a public or private forum to be more lazy than ignorant. With today's access to spell-checkers and on-line dictionaries, there is no excuse. Ignorance is not a sin, but to persist in ignorance is.... well, let's just say that I take it as a lack of respect for the forum and its' participants. 
I also consider that anyone graduating high school with such sloppy writing skills is an indictment of the person and/or the school system.

For the record, regrettably I blew the opportunity to graduate from college because of immaturity and short-sightedness on my part..... four years, no sheep skin. So, the simple truth is that I am a high school graduate with some college.
Nevertheless, words and their use are very important to those in positions of authority. To slight the chance to improve oneself is foolish and self-limiting. Take it from one who has been there, done that, and has the t-shirt to show for it.


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## Thanatos (Jun 21, 2011)

bullethead said:


> So then by your own standards your posts can not be taken seriously because of spelling and grammar.
> 
> And the beliefs thing, I think this was to me...
> 
> ...



By my own standards you should not take what I am saying as truth. You need to research and be objective in your due diligence. 

Both of my quotes in your post are saying the same exact thing. Quiet yourself and your prideful thinking and you will see how small we are and how are limited knowledge hurts us especially when we think we know a lot.


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## Thanatos (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> You spelled elitist wrong.



Guys...come on. This cynicism at it's best. I had to do it. Just joking around...apologies to the poster.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

Degrees aren't all they're cracked up to be... And you can always go back.



gtparts said:


> First, being a Christian, I find the use of Scripture alone to be quite effective in most circumstances, but I understand that you would appreciate some further dialog. God is not limited to Scripture as a means of refuting the lies and misunderstandings of the secular world. For the most part, you will find that I am not one of those people, any way.
> 
> As for the grammar and punctuation matter, for me, it is not that my education is more significant than others, and especially as a Christian, it is not a point of superiority.
> 
> ...


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## emusmacker (Jun 21, 2011)

The one thing that I would like to know. Is why can the bones of the "other" gods be found but the bones of Christ not.  And don't give the baloney about grave robbing, I've studied a little about the Roman soldiers and they were VERY strict. Also, notice how most other gods have a very small following?  Wonder why. As far as the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas. Well their empire and god is wncient history.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> Guys...come on. This cynicism at it's best. I had to do it. Just joking around...apologies to the poster.



You're completely right... but you started it


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

emusmacker said:


> The one thing that I would like to know. Is why can the bones of the "other" gods be found but the bones of Christ not.  And don't give the baloney about grave robbing, I've studied a little about the Roman soldiers and they were VERY strict. Also, notice how most other gods have a very small following?  Wonder why. As far as the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas. Well their empire and god is wncient history.



Someone has found zues's bones? Wow.. That would change my mind too.

Those other American people you speak of were around for a LONG time. Lots of civilizations that had their own beliefs were around for a LONG time.. The fact that they are now gone should show you what's going to happen to the christianity you hold now hold dear. I would think you are familiar with the saying that history repeats itself... Maybe not in your lifetime, so you may not be around to see it...


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

emusmacker said:


> The one thing that I would like to know. Is why can the bones of the "other" gods be found but the bones of Christ not.  And don't give the baloney about grave robbing, I've studied a little about the Roman soldiers and they were VERY strict. Also, notice how most other gods have a very small following?  Wonder why. As far as the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas. Well their empire and god is wncient history.



 Jesus ascended into heaven and therefore no bones to be found.....? So you are saying that he went up not just spiritually but physically. In a time where the earth was considered flat and Heaven was considered above the sky, the writers WOULD have had him ascend upward. Think about this, no Jesus.... no bones?? Or the story in the bible is not quite right being that the authors NEVER witnessed Jesus.....ever..... they never saw Jesus ascend, descend, walk on water, heal anyone so the only reason they would have him ascend into heaven(upward) was because that was their belief in where heaven is located. If they would have had him just POOF into thin air to heaven it could have been more believable.

How strict were the soldiers that they didn't notice a 3000lb stone moved from the entrance of the cave?



Christianity didn't "catch on" until much later either. Look up Constantine and his mother's interest in Jesus.


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

emusmacker said:


> The one thing that I would like to know. Is why can the bones of the "other" gods be found but the bones of Christ not.  And don't give the baloney about grave robbing, I've studied a little about the Roman soldiers and they were VERY strict. Also, notice how most other gods have a very small following?  Wonder why. As far as the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas. Well their empire and god is wncient history.



http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm353771.html


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

http://www.pocm.info/getting_started_pocm.html

This is a site where some facts and similarities are laid out for each to form their own opinions.


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## emusmacker (Jun 21, 2011)

I don't believe that the history taught in our schools is true. And that troy wasn't the strongest army and were no destroyed by the Trojan horse.  I wasn't there and those are merely words written down on paper that those authors want us to believe. Bunch of liars, dang, as far I know all the history is made up. just men's opinions of what happened. Hmmmm something to think about I guess.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

I hope you're saying "something to think about" the written "history" in the bible... which is similar in many ways to what you're talking about. That argument is nearly EXACTLY the argument a lot of us make about the bible.

You can't say what's written in the school history books is a bunch of junk because it was written by old liars, then say without a doubt that the bible is true... They are definitely different, but very similar in a lot of ways.. At least they are very similar in the ways you're talking about school history.

Different because the bible has unbelievable things like a human ascending in to the sky or a talking legged snake, but as you put it, the history books in school tell us about some guys signing a piece of paper.. Which have you ever seen happen in any way?

I've seen men sign things. Call me an old liar if you want, I'll even say I'VE DONE IT MYSELF... I've never seen someone floating up in to the sky.



emusmacker said:


> I don't believe that the history taught in our schools is true. And that troy wasn't the strongest army and were no destroyed by the Trojan horse.  I wasn't there and those are merely words written down on paper that those authors want us to believe. Bunch of liars, dang, as far I know all the history is made up. just men's opinions of what happened. Hmmmm something to think about I guess.


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

emusmacker said:


> I don't believe that the history taught in our schools is true. And that troy wasn't the strongest army and were no destroyed by the Trojan horse.  I wasn't there and those are merely words written down on paper that those authors want us to believe. Bunch of liars, dang, as far I know all the history is made up. just men's opinions of what happened. Hmmmm something to think about I guess.



Historic events are put together by having credible people, witnesses, governments, etc...tell similar stories with the same outcome. Battles that occurred with each side telling the same outcome is credible. Crossing the Red Sea and having it swallow the Egyptian army behind you would be credible IF the Egyptian survivors told the same story. Non Christians that recorded everything else that happened during the time of Jesus failed to write about a man rising from the dead, walking on water, healing the blind and other miracles, yet they kept meticulous records of births, deaths, taxes, weather, harvests and everything else that happened. With your new mindset you can start to research historical events inside and outside of the bible and see which ones hold more truth.


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## bullethead (Jun 21, 2011)

Not to mention when tales of happenings can be matched up with archeological finds that confirm the tales, that is a good credible source. History is confirmed by multiple sources and is made up of sometimes incredible events that do not speak of the supernatural. And most importantly, history(books and teachings) can and do change as we find out more evidence both for it and against, the bible...and it's followers, refuse to let that happen despite all the flaws.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 21, 2011)

bullethead said:


> And most importantly, history(books and teachings) can and do change as we find out more evidence both for it and against, the bible...and it's followers, refuse to let that happen despite all the flaws.



You know... I don't think this is completely true. They just try to incorporate it in somehow. New things are found that contradict, so let's figure out how we can fit it in. I haven't researched it, but the vatican supposedly confirmed the POSSIBILITY of ETs. It's just hedging bets so when/if a discovery is made they'll be ok.


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## gtparts (Jun 22, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Historic events are put together by having credible people, witnesses, governments, etc...tell similar stories with the same outcome. Battles that occurred with each side telling the same outcome is credible. Crossing the Red Sea and having it swallow the Egyptian army behind you would be credible IF the Egyptian survivors told the same story. Non Christians that recorded everything else that happened during the time of Jesus failed to write about a man rising from the dead, walking on water, healing the blind and other miracles, yet they kept meticulous records of births, deaths, taxes, weather, harvests and everything else that happened. With your new mindset you can start to research historical events inside and outside of the bible and see which ones hold more truth.



Read the Red Sea account again. No survivors...... no conflicting or confirming information available. If we allow for the survival of the pharaoh and a small contingent of personal attendants, you have a story that probably would not be told/recorded when they got back home.

"My charioteers, archers, and spear-men were annihilated by the God of the Hebrew slaves."   Not a best seller!

Besides, how smart is it to hear or read about an event that was and remains unchallenged and assume that it is devoid of truth?
 Sure, multiple supportive sources add credibility. But lack of multiple, independent supportive accounts does not mean the original account is erroneous or fallacious. The responsibility of recording the Hebrew history fell to Moses. The fact that no one disputed it (at that time) may be due to complete and thorough agreement on the event and details. 

You won't catch much "rain" in the "sieve", my friend.


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## bullethead (Jun 22, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> You know... I don't think this is completely true. They just try to incorporate it in somehow. New things are found that contradict, so let's figure out how we can fit it in. I haven't researched it, but the vatican supposedly confirmed the POSSIBILITY of ETs. It's just hedging bets so when/if a discovery is made they'll be ok.



The Vatican certainly changes their stance on things but the Bible is untouchable. From 5000-2000 years ago God was rampant with interaction( albeit to a super small group of people in  small geographical location) and wild tales of of daily life with him fill the bible. In the 2000 years since, not a peep. No one was inspired to write anything, and if they were.....no one, not even the church believes them. Seemingly at a time when his existence is questioned more and more his updated guidance in non existent.


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## bullethead (Jun 22, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Read the Red Sea account again. No survivors...... no conflicting or confirming information available. If we allow for the survival of the pharaoh and a small contingent of personal attendants, you have a story that probably would not be told/recorded when they got back home.
> 
> "My charioteers, archers, and spear-men were annihilated by the God of the Hebrew slaves."   Not a best seller!
> 
> ...



First, in scripture, it doesn't say if pharoh was in the sea and was killed, up on a cliff watching it unfold or was back at his palace. There is no mention in Egyptian history that the entire army left in chase of the Israelites and no one returned, ever. If the bible allowed any real truth to be told, it would not be a best seller. The egyptians recorded their greatest victories and defeats. They did not mention this event......because they didn't know about it, because it never happened.

It is akin to say you beat up Mike Tyson but no one saw it and because Mike Tyson doesn't even know about it, he never reported it, so therefore because no one disputed your claim you beat up Mike Tyson. Sorry GT, that doesn't work.


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## bullethead (Jun 22, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Besides, how smart is it to hear or read about an event that was and remains unchallenged and assume that it is devoid of truth?



Unchallenged? For a group of people, thousands if not tens or hundreds of thousands to live in Egypt and leave no archeological trace is telling. To lead a band of thousands+ wandering the desert for 40 years and leave no trace is really telling. The egyptians did not have slaves in the sense that they conquered people and used them to build their pyramids and buildings. Workers, mostly egyptian workers did all that and got paid. The "slaves" were some captured people from war, some in labor camps but mostly left to live among the egyptian people. They did not have tens of thousands of conquered slaves because they could not feed them all or control them all. Do some searching and read about ancient egyptian history, it is obviously not what you think it is.

http://www.greatdreams.com/moses.htm

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4191


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## Huntinfool (Jun 22, 2011)

bullethead said:


> No there are things that are unexplainable and there are things that are ridiculous. 8 people couldn't repopulate the world and it really is that simple.



So....


With evolution, a "first" human eventually ended up evolving.  Then (I would assume) a second.

Simplistically speaking, then, the entire human population came from two people whether you're speaking in terms of the Bible or of evolution.

Also...

Here are some numbers on your "8 people can't re-pop the earth" statement.

Let's assume we're talking about 4 male/female couples and let's assume they avg 6 children each (that's conservative with no birth control, etc....but let's account for early death and just say that 6 survive and the male/female ratio is 50/50).

Let's just look at those 4 couples.  

First generation = 8 people
Second generation =  24 people
Third generation = 72 people
Fourth generation = 216 people
Fifth generation = 648 people...

Twenty Fifth generation =  people 2,259,436,291,848

Let's say that there are roughly 20 years between generational reproduction.  So people have all their kids by the age of 20 and their kids have kids by age 20.  

It would take 500 years to get to the 25th generation at that rate.  So in 500 years, there are roughly 2.3 billion people on the earth.

You say 6 kids is too many?  Drop it down to 4 surviving, reproducing kids and you end up with 134 million people in the 24th gen.

50th generation?  It's in the trillions with 4 kids.  SO...perhaps 4 is too many.  If we assume 3 kids (which is the minimum whole number for population growth).  At the 50th generation, you're at 3.4 billion people.

The point is, yes.....yes 8 people could very well repopulate the earth.  Now...if it ends up being less than 3, then we're pushing it.  

But what do I know?  I'm just one of those pencil pushers.


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## stringmusic (Jun 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> So....
> 
> 
> With evolution, a "first" human eventually ended up evolving.  Then (I would assume) a second.
> ...


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## ambush80 (Jun 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> So....
> 
> 
> With evolution, a "first" human eventually ended up evolving.  Then (I would assume) a second.
> ...



Not "one organism" one type of organism.  If you want to discuss Evolution, at least have a remedial knowledge of what it states.  



Huntinfool said:


> Also...
> 
> Here are some numbers on your "8 people can't re-pop the earth" statement.
> 
> ...



While we're having Math class, let's study a little Biology.  How is it that none of them ended up with any of those pesky abnormalities that result from in breeding?  A miracle?  If you believe in miracles then why even attempt to make some rational argument about what "mathematically could have happened"?


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## HawgJawl (Jun 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> So....
> 
> 
> With evolution, a "first" human eventually ended up evolving.  Then (I would assume) a second.
> ...



At the time of the Great Flood (approximately 2348 BC) Noah was 600 and his son Shem was 98.  Two years after the flood, Shem has a son named Arphaxad, who had a son named Shelah, who had a son named Eber, who had a son named Peleg, who had a son named Reu, who had a son named Serug, who had a son named Nahor, who had a son named Terah, who had a son named Abram.

There were nine (9) generations between the Great Flood and Abraham.  The book of Genesis makes it quite clear that there were lots of people on earth at the time of Abraham and it doesn't portray those people as distant cousins.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 22, 2011)

This seems pretty well thought out so I'll just take your word for the math. I try not to get in to so much math outside of work, so I'll just take your word for it. 

One questions. Are your trillion and billion numbers excluding the people that died over the 500 years? I'd say that's about 85% of the numbers you're quoting. I may be wrong, I'm breaking my head right now on an auction, dealer credit analysis... BLAH



Huntinfool said:


> So....
> 
> 
> With evolution, a "first" human eventually ended up evolving.  Then (I would assume) a second.
> ...


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> This seems pretty well thought out so I'll just take your word for the math. I try not to get in to so much math outside of work, so I'll just take your word for it.
> 
> One questions. Are your trillion and billion numbers excluding the people that died over the 500 years? I'd say that's about 85% of the numbers you're quoting. I may be wrong, I'm breaking my head right now on an auction, dealer credit analysis... BLAH



It's not excluding that number and the assumptions are way off. That number he got to on the 25th generation isn't 2 billion, it's 2 trillion! You had high infant mortality in ancient times, low life expectancy, disease, wars, famine, etc. A lot of women died in child birth back then. Plus even when you take all of that into account its not like people back then hit 20 and suddenly popped out 6 kids at once. Estimates of human population throughout history are usually around 100 billion and that is over a much greater time period than 25 generations. But all of that aside I wouldn't say it's outside the realm of possibility for 8 people to repopulate the earth. My question is, where is the evidence that supports that claim?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 22, 2011)

I forgot about their ages.. Maybe my 85% reduction is off.



HawgJawl said:


> At the time of the Great Flood (approximately 2348 BC) Noah was 600 and his son Shem was 98.  Two years after the flood, Shem has a son named Arphaxad, who had a son named Shelah, who had a son named Eber, who had a son named Peleg, who had a son named Reu, who had a son named Serug, who had a son named Nahor, who had a son named Terah, who had a son named Abram.
> 
> There were nine (9) generations between the Great Flood and Abraham.  The book of Genesis makes it quite clear that there were lots of people on earth at the time of Abraham and it doesn't portray those people as distant cousins.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 22, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I've never heard an expert claim that agriculture is as old as humanity. Have you? Can you cite any evidence for such a claim?



I couldn't care any less about the subject of agriculture and the creation.
It was what it was.  You aren't going to figure it all out and neither am I.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 22, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Scripture is seldom used in debate between prominent apologists and atheists. There is a reason for that. It doesn't offer any common ground for discussion. It would be like a muslim explaining how wrong you are about God and the afterlife by citing the koran.
> 
> That said, there are good discussions on here about the bible and what it says and what is meant, if it is true, etc that I find interesting. Really those discussions belong more in the christian forum than the AAA forum but we all know what happens when a nonbeliever discusses scripture over there. They come under personal attack until the thread is deleted. Have to protect that flock from servants of satan lurking around here.




Thank the Lord.


----------



## Huntinfool (Jun 22, 2011)

I may have mistyped that big number.  ill check it when i get back to my desk. My recollection is thats its supposed to be billions. (update....nope....it's trillion.  That's why I went on down to 3 kids per couple.  It goes exponential in a hurry)

But it actually does exclude people from previous generations. Those are unique people in that generation. I used age 20 because people started having children in their teenage years back then. Yes it's simplified. We assume everyone survives to age 20 etc. The point is still valid and correct. Do the math. 

I didn't try to address it in biblical timeframes. The statement was that it wasn't possible. I proved than it very much is possible. That was my only intent.


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I couldn't care any less about the subject of agriculture and the creation.



Not at all surprised. That is where we differ. I care about the truth of my beliefs and will change them when they are shown to be wrong.


----------



## Huntinfool (Jun 22, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> At the time of the Great Flood (approximately 2348 BC) Noah was 600 and his son Shem was 98.  Two years after the flood, Shem has a son named Arphaxad, who had a son named Shelah, who had a son named Eber, who had a son named Peleg, who had a son named Reu, who had a son named Serug, who had a son named Nahor, who had a son named Terah, who had a son named Abram.
> 
> There were nine (9) generations between the Great Flood and Abraham.  The book of Genesis makes it quite clear that there were lots of people on earth at the time of Abraham and it doesn't portray those people as distant cousins.



Are you under the impression that the sons listed in that geneology are the only children of each father?  If you are, we need to talk my man.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 22, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I couldn't care any less about the subject of agriculture and the creation.
> It was what it was.  You aren't going to figure it all out and neither am I.



I agree that neither of us will figure it out discussing it here.... so why act like you know that it was something you can't even understand in a god. A likely response is why act like I know it wasn't. I, personally, don't. It could be the way you think it is, but I find it highly unlikely. I 100% stand with the fact that I don't know.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 22, 2011)

I also 100% stand with the fact that you don't know...


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I agree that neither of us will figure it out discussing it here.... so why act like you know that it was something you can't even understand in a god. A likely response is why act like I know it wasn't. I, personally, don't. It could be the way you think it is, but I find it highly unlikely. I 100% stand with the fact that I don't know.



You're trying to reason with a man that subordinates reason to faith. Don't waste your time.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 22, 2011)

And the fact that you do, I suppose. The recent thread started was the arrogance of who?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 22, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You're trying to reason with a man that subordinates reason to faith. Don't waste your time.



Then we're wasting our time in this forum.


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Then we're wasting our time in this forum.



Not everyone on here is like that.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 22, 2011)

All of the believers are going to resort back to faith at the points that the logic doesn't work any more. I agree that some of the guys here take a while to get there though.


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## stringmusic (Jun 22, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> All of the believers are going to resort back to faith at the points that the logic doesn't work any more. I agree that some of the guys here take a while to get there though.



Does logic ever fail you at any point of your knowledge?


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Does logic ever fail you at any point of your knowledge?



Sometimes.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 22, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You're trying to reason with a man that subordinates reason to faith. Don't waste your time.



In all honesty, that's true.


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## stringmusic (Jun 22, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Sometimes.



What do you do in those cases?


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## Ronnie T (Jun 22, 2011)

When it comes to spiritual matters, logic is a nice companion, but not a necessity.

Most of my purposes for living are based on spiritual matters that, for the most part, are not logical.  I'm not embarrassed to say or to know that.  
I would never try to convince an atheist to believe in God based on logic.  A person probably has to believe in God first, then everything God has ever done becomes logical.


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## bullethead (Jun 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> So....
> 
> 
> With evolution, a "first" human eventually ended up evolving.  Then (I would assume) a second.
> ...



Moses and wife were ancient, count them out.

Now push your pencil as to why we cannot trace our DNA back to those people that were on the ark and why you have it sharpened, jot down how the different races came to be, how the evolutionary traits within those races formed in 4000 years and rate that the offspring inhabited the places on earth from that one spot. Check all those against the timeline of mankind out of Africa and get back to us please.


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> What do you do in those cases?



I keep looking for answers and try to conform my beliefs as best I can to reality, readily admitting my ignorance. What I don't do is plug in a magical explanation based on faith and claim to have knowledge that I don't.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 22, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> And the fact that you do, I suppose. The recent thread started was the arrogance of who?



I was kidding man.  Take a breath.  

Not sure which thread you're talking about.  But I'd be happy to point out where I'm right if you give me a link. 

(kidding again in case it got lost in translation)


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## stringmusic (Jun 22, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Moses and wife were ancient, count them out.
> 
> Now push your pencil as to *why we cannot trace our DNA back to those people that were on the ark* and why you have it sharpened, jot down how the different races came to be, how the evolutionary traits within those races formed in 4000 years and rate that the offspring inhabited the places on earth from that one spot. Check all those against the timeline of mankind out of Africa and get back to us please.



We are not smart enough?


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> When it comes to spiritual matters, logic is a nice companion, but not a necessity.
> 
> Most of my purposes for living are based on spiritual matters that, for the most part, are not logical.  I'm not embarrassed to say or to know that.
> I would never try to convince an atheist to believe in God based on logic.  A person probably has to believe in God first, then everything God has ever done becomes logical.



That's well and good as long as it stays within the "spiritual" arena. The bible doesn't. Genesis makes many claims about the natural world. Unlike spiritual claims, natural claims are falsifiable and it would appear based on what we can observe that the Genesis account is false. If claims the bible makes about the natural world are true then our observations of the natural world should confirm those claims. That isn't what happens. Some people simply stick their fingers in their ears and close their eyes when confronted with evidence that contradicts their preconceived beliefs. There is nothing to say to someone who is content to believe lies knowing they are lies. It's as pointless as having a debate with someone who insists the earth is flat and refuses to acknowledge any evidence to the contrary.


----------



## stringmusic (Jun 22, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> That's well and good as long as it stays within the "spiritual" arena. The bible doesn't. Genesis makes many claims about the natural world. Unlike spiritual claims, natural claims are falsifiable and* it would appear based on what we can observe that the Genesis account is false.* If claims the bible makes about the natural world are true then our observations of the natural world should confirm those claims. That isn't what happens. Some people simply stick their fingers in their ears and close their eyes when confronted with evidence that contradicts their preconceived beliefs. There is nothing to say to someone who is content to believe lies knowing they are lies. It's as pointless as having a debate with someone who insists the earth is flat and refuses to acknowledge any evidence to the contrary.



I dont think its that simple, if it were, not nearly as many people would believe. There are many people that have _objectivly_ dedicated their lives to theology, and still believe in the Bible.


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## bullethead (Jun 22, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> We are not smart enough?



Maybe WE, but there are some that certainly are. 

Noah's Ark is a fable and one that has been told before the OT got a hold of it.


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## bullethead (Jun 22, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I dont think its that simple, if it were, not nearly as many people would believe. There are many people that have _objectivly_ dedicated their lives to theology, and still believe in the Bible.



People are gullible.


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## ambush80 (Jun 22, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> It's not excluding that number and the assumptions are way off. That number he got to on the 25th generation isn't 2 billion, it's 2 trillion! You had high infant mortality in ancient times,
> , disease, wars, famine, etc. A lot of women died in child birth back then. Plus even when you take all of that into account its not like people back then hit 20 and suddenly popped out 6 kids at once. Estimates of human population throughout history are usually around 100 billion and that is over a much greater time period than 25 generations. But all of that aside I wouldn't say it's outside the realm of possibility for 8 people to repopulate the earth. My question is, where is the evidence that supports that claim?




Up to 900+ years.


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## ambush80 (Jun 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I may have mistyped that big number.  ill check it when i get back to my desk. My recollection is thats its supposed to be billions. (update....nope....it's trillion.  That's why I went on down to 3 kids per couple.  It goes exponential in a hurry)
> 
> But it actually does exclude people from previous generations. Those are unique people in that generation. I used age 20 because people started having children in their teenage years back then. Yes it's simplified. We assume everyone survives to age 20 etc. The point is still valid and correct. Do the math.
> 
> I didn't try to address it in biblical timeframes. The statement was that it wasn't possible. I proved than it very much is possible. That was my only intent.



Any thoughts on the questions I raised?


----------



## ambush80 (Jun 22, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> When it comes to spiritual matters, logic is a nice companion, but not a necessity.
> 
> Most of my purposes for living are based on spiritual matters that, for the most part, are not logical.  I'm not embarrassed to say or to know that.
> I would never try to convince an atheist to believe in God based on logic.  A person probably has to believe in God first, then everything God has ever done becomes logical.



...Not logical, but now has an explanation.  It's like a flip of a switch; the Blue Pill Vs. the Red Pill.   When you surrender your reason (what I would call giving up the good fight) and allow mysticism and superstition to answer the difficult questions, I suppose things easily fall into place.  

When I asked my mom why she quit questioning the things in the Bible that she KNOWS don't make sense she said "I'm tired."   I must say that I was a little disappointed.  I always looked up to her as a supremely rational person.  At least she has respected my request to not indoctrinate my daughter, her grand daughter with deism.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 22, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Any thoughts on the questions I raised?



These questions?



> While we're having Math class, let's study a little Biology. How is it that none of them ended up with any of those pesky abnormalities that result from in breeding? A miracle? If you believe in miracles then why even attempt to make some rational argument about what "mathematically could have happened"?



Well...you won't read anywhere that I said there weren't any abnormalities.  There possibly were.  Never heard of a perfectly normal child coming from a 1st cousin/1st cousin conception?  The abnormalities are the exception....not the rule.

Want me to blow your mind?  Charles Darwin and his wife?  That's right....1st cousins.  The father of the sacred theory wasn't so concerned about the genetic consequenses.

1st cousin marriages account for a fairly high percentage of unions across the world from what I read.  Got any evidence that says 1st cousin marraiges result in a huge proportion of genetic freaks?


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## stringmusic (Jun 22, 2011)

bullethead said:


> People are gullible.



So its just a coincidence that very intelligent people who have studied these subjects for 50-60 years are all just gullible?


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## bullethead (Jun 22, 2011)

A billionaire heiress gives John Edwards millions of dollars whenever he asks so he can cover up his love life......yeah, people, even smart people are gulliable.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Are you under the impression that the sons listed in that geneology are the only children of each father?  If you are, we need to talk my man.



Not at all.  I wasn't addressing the number of children.  My only point was that we should be looking at nine (9) generations instead of twenty (20) or twenty-five (25).


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## bullethead (Jun 22, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> So its just a coincidence that very intelligent people who have studied these subjects for 50-60 years are all just gullible?



Is it coincidence that many similar people have studied those subjects for an equal amount of time and DO NOT BELIEVE it?


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## stringmusic (Jun 22, 2011)

bullethead said:


> A billionaire heiress gives John Edwards millions of dollars whenever he asks so he can cover up his love life......yeah, people, even smart people are gulliable.



How is that gulliable?


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## stringmusic (Jun 22, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Is it coincidence that many similar people have studied those subjects for an equal amount of time and DO NOT BELIEVE it?



Atlas stated that it seemed, by what we can observe, that the account given in Genesis was false. I dont think that is true, given by my post #227.


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I dont think its that simple, if it were, not nearly as many people would believe.



Childhood indoctrination plays a huge role in what people believe. If that were to be eliminated not very many people would believe.





stringmusic said:


> There are many people that have _objectivly_ dedicated their lives to theology, and still believe in the Bible.



I disagree. The words objective and theology don't go together. It's like saying someone dedicated their life to astrology on an objective basis.

Some biblical claims are unfalsifiable. I don't know of any way that you could verify on objective terms the claim that Jesus is the son of God. If there were an omnipotent God that cared to verify it to us they could but short of that you and I can neither prove or disprove the claim.

But if the bible says the earth is flat or less than 10,000 years old those are claims of a different nature. As we learn more about the earth we have the potential to either confirm the truth of those claims or to falsify them. If we care about the truth of these claims then we should care about whether the evidence confirms or refutes them. IMO honesty should also compel us to be willing to consider the possibility that what the bible says isn't true. If it is then there is absolutely nothing to fear from questioning and testing the claims, in fact confirming the truth of the claims with outside evidence will serve to strengthen those beliefs. If it isn't true then one has to decide do they reject those claims that they know to be untrue or do they reject the truth and cling to the claims? I've come to realize that some people will cling to false claims even in the face of evidence that exposes their falsehood.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I also 100% stand with the fact that you don't know...
> 
> (to my claim that I am 100% sure that I don't know how things started)



And the fact that you do, I suppose. The recent thread started was the arrogance of who?  


I was breathing man. That's why I put the smiley . You agree with me that I don't know... but that's with the fact that you do know the origins of everything, right?


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## Blueridge (Jun 22, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Hardly any time at all in comparison to the paleolithic and mesolithic time periods that pre-date the advent of agriculture. Genesis says Adam was 130 years old when his son Seth was born.
> Pre-date?? Has Carbon dating ever been proven inaccurate? I believe it has. Still you leave out from created the heavens and the earth, Adam came later. How much later ? We are not sure and neither are you.
> 
> Genesis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, [said she], hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
> ...



Method ? Through simple faith. I know thats hard for an intelligent scholar like your self to grasp but it is that simple.
God is like no other [trying not to quote scripture]
You guys still can't tell me where did everything come from? I can tell you that God made it all and I truly believe that as it is written in God's word. I honestly don't know why you guys continually try to disprove the fact that God is real . About the only answer is Pride, the same attitude that got Lucifer kicked out of Heaven.


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## Blueridge (Jun 22, 2011)

Atlashunter , you can see my other responses in your quote above.


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## AugustaDawg (Jun 22, 2011)

"If it isn't true then one has to decide do they reject those claims that they know to be untrue or do they reject the truth and cling to the claims? I've come to realize that some people will cling to false claims even in the face of evidence that exposes their falsehood."-A.H.

Atlas,
could you please read this http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/audio/newevidence.htm
and let me know what you think?  I must warn you, it is a LONG read, but worthwhile!


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 22, 2011)

Blueridge said:


> Method ? Through simple faith. I know thats hard for an intelligent scholar like your self to grasp but it is that simple.
> God is like no other [trying not to quote scripture]
> You guys still can't tell me where did everything come from? I can tell you that God made it all and I truly believe that as it is written in God's word. I honestly don't know why you guys continually try to disprove the fact that God is real . About the only answer is Pride, the same attitude that got Lucifer kicked out of Heaven.



You have a firm conviction that you know where everything came from. I'll give you that. The bible says you have to believe it, so you do. You don't KNOW where it all came from any more than anyone else. 

I'm not proud that I don't believe it. I'm not embarrassed either. I kind of wish it was convincing enough to make me think it was real.


----------



## gtparts (Jun 22, 2011)

bullethead said:


> First, in scripture, it doesn't say if pharoh was in the sea and was killed, up on a cliff watching it unfold or was back at his palace. There is no mention in Egyptian history that the entire army left in chase of the Israelites and no one returned, ever. If the bible allowed any real truth to be told, it would not be a best seller. The egyptians recorded their greatest victories and defeats. They did not mention this event......because they didn't know about it, because it never happened.
> 
> It is akin to say you beat up Mike Tyson but no one saw it and because Mike Tyson doesn't even know about it, he never reported it, so therefore because no one disputed your claim you beat up Mike Tyson. Sorry GT, that doesn't work.



For anyone to believe, from a position of logic, that the lack of an Egyptian account of the Red Sea events is refutation of the biblical account, one would have to know that we have ALL Egyptian records of that period and that there are no gaps or omissions in those records. Since we have NOTHING, no logical conclusions can be made from the absence of records.

The Tyson paragraph is just smoke; a totally fictitious scenario, with worthless assumptions and complete irrelevance.




bullethead said:


> Unchallenged? For a group of people, thousands if not tens or hundreds of thousands to live in Egypt and leave no archeological trace is telling. To lead a band of thousands+ wandering the desert for 40 years and leave no trace is really telling. The egyptians did not have slaves in the sense that they conquered people and used them to build their pyramids and buildings. Workers, mostly egyptian workers did all that and got paid. The "slaves" were some captured people from war, some in labor camps but mostly left to live among the egyptian people. They did not have tens of thousands of conquered slaves because they could not feed them all or control them all. Do some searching and read about ancient egyptian history, it is obviously not what you think it is.
> 
> http://www.greatdreams.com/moses.htm
> 
> http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4191



Most archeologists and anthropologist thought that the city of Troy and the Trojan War (as recorded in the _Illiad_) was fable until Schliemann & Calvert  unearthed the site, starting in 1870. 
Just because we lack corroborating evidence from the "Egyptian side" does not yield any information concerning the veracity of the Bible account. The record is simply silent, to this point!

Scripture records the presence of God's chosen people in Egypt approx. 400 years and makes no mention of pyramids. Apparently the slaves were relegated to making mud bricks, so the "connection" to pyramids is mostly "Hollywood" and Herodotus, who lived in the 5th century in Greece. The chosen people were initially nomadic and wound up in Egypt thanks to a famine in the region of their traditional wanderings. They were slowly subjugated and in 400 years, give or take, they were never fully integrated into Egyptian culture.

And, yes, it is unchallenged. There are no documents, contemporary to the time of the Exodus, that present any refutation, from Egyptians or others.


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## bullethead (Jun 22, 2011)

gtparts said:


> For anyone to believe, from a position of logic, that the lack of an Egyptian account of the Red Sea events is refutation of the biblical account, one would have to know that we have ALL Egyptian records of that period and that there are no gaps or omissions in those records. Since we have NOTHING, no logical conclusions can be made from the absence of records.
> 
> The Tyson paragraph is just smoke; a totally fictitious scenario, with worthless assumptions and complete irrelevance.
> 
> ...



Scripture doesn't count as historical fact GT! As soon as you provide ALL the Hebrew records (outside of the bible of course) that shows it did happen then we are in the same boat. You can't talk position of logic and include happenings in the bible.

 a totally fictitious scenario, with worthless assumptions and complete irrelevance........Tyson scenario, Exodus scenario....same thing.


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## bullethead (Jun 22, 2011)

I don't doubt the "chosen people" ended up in Egypt due to famine and I don't doubt they stayed for a couple hundred years, but I do doubt 600,000 of them headed out in a massive exodus and it went down the way the bible says it did. They may have left over time in a constant flow of small groups and settled in Samaria. The story that is told is legend and folklore to give the backbone of their religion and laws some basis.


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

@blueridge

Please break your comments out separate from mine next time.

Concerning carbon dating. Has it ever been proven inaccurate? Bit of a loaded question. Yes it has. Under certain known and understood conditions. Outside of those conditions it's been shown to be accurate. But I never mentioned carbon dating so I'm not sure why you brought it up.

With respect to Adam and the creation account it makes no difference how much time you want to put between the creation of the earth and the creation of Adam. Genesis says it was a matter of days. Genesis 1:5 also gives an account of a day that sounds eerily similar to what we understand to be day.

God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. 

But if you want to say a day really might mean a year or a thousand years or a million years or whatever to weasel your way out of what you clearly recognize to be a bunk story thats fine.

I was talking agriculture as it relates to Adam. How much time came before Adam is irrelevant to that conversation because the bible records Adam as the first human. As for how much time the bible _really_ meant when it said Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born... Do you want to claim now that 1 year in Genesis was actually a thousand of our years? Or more? So that means Adam was really 130,000 years old when he had his son Seth? Is that what you're saying?

This is what kills me about you guys. You're willing to believe anything, posit anything, no matter how utterly ridiculous, in a desperate effort to avoid what is plain as day. Is there ever a point that you get so tired of the absurd things you're saying that you just say "You know what? Maybe, just maybe it isn't true. Maybe there is a logical explanation why so much just doesn't add up, doesn't fit with what we now know." Or do you just care so little about reality that the myths that you've swallowed hook line and sinker can never be questioned?

I could see maybe ignoring an inconvenient conflict with science here or there to dodge any challenge to biblical claims. But you really have to believe science is wrong about just about everything to believe the bible is 100% true. You have to believe scientists are wrong on carbon dating, wrong on radiometric dating, wrong on genetics and the molecular clock, wrong on paleontology, wrong on evolution, wrong on geology (if you're a young earth creationist).

You have to believe that the field that has the ability to seek out mistakes and change and improve on our understanding has it for the most part wrong. And on the other hand believe that a book written thousands of years ago by ignorant men that got so much wrong about the natural world, that doesn't change, can't be revised in light of new data, that this book is inerrant when it is readily apparent that its not. It's just so dishonest and conveniently so. Convenient in the sense that it addresses mans greatest fear, his mortality, and promises him that which he lacks not only the capability to comprehend but the capacity to experience... eternal life.


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## bullethead (Jun 22, 2011)

> Is there ever a point that you get so tired of the absurd things you're saying that you just say "You know what? Maybe, just maybe it isn't true. Maybe there is a logical explanation why so much just doesn't add up, doesn't fit with what we now know."



THAT was me EXACTLY Atlas! And so the quest began!


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## Ronnie T (Jun 22, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> That's well and good as long as it stays within the "spiritual" arena. The bible doesn't. Genesis makes many claims about the natural world. Unlike spiritual claims, natural claims are falsifiable and it would appear based on what we can observe that the Genesis account is false. If claims the bible makes about the natural world are true then our observations of the natural world should confirm those claims. That isn't what happens. Some people simply stick their fingers in their ears and close their eyes when confronted with evidence that contradicts their preconceived beliefs. There is nothing to say to someone who is content to believe lies knowing they are lies. It's as pointless as having a debate with someone who insists the earth is flat and refuses to acknowledge any evidence to the contrary.



The Bible doesn't make "claims".
I believe the Bible records a tiny little speck of what mankind would never be able to fully comprehend in the first place.
Those who believe in the Devine God will take what's given.  Those who don't believe in the Devine God will mock it and the one who created him/her.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 22, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> That's well and good as long as it stays within the "spiritual" arena. The bible doesn't. Genesis makes many claims about the natural world. Unlike spiritual claims, natural claims are falsifiable and it would appear based on what we can observe that the Genesis account is false. If claims the bible makes about the natural world are true then our observations of the natural world should confirm those claims. That isn't what happens. Some people simply stick their fingers in their ears and close their eyes when confronted with evidence that contradicts their preconceived beliefs. There is nothing to say to someone who is content to believe lies knowing they are lies. It's as pointless as having a debate with someone who insists the earth is flat and refuses to acknowledge any evidence to the contrary.



I believe the earth is round..... well, kinda.


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## JFS (Jun 22, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I believe the Bible records a tiny little speck of what mankind would never be able to fully comprehend in the first place.



I understand floods.   I understand biology and geology.   I even know a little about animal farming and seamanship.   What I am not able to understand is the absurd claim in the bible regarding a mass genocide and cartoonish repopulation stories.  The bible is not aiding comprehension, it is actively hindering it.


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## bullethead (Jun 22, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> The Bible doesn't make "claims".
> I believe the Bible records a tiny little speck of what mankind would never be able to fully comprehend in the first place.
> Those who believe in the Devine God will take what's given.  Those who don't believe in the Devine God will mock it and the one who created him/her.



We all know your opinion/stance. We are trying to figure out what is truth and what is fiction with factual evidence. If you can show us anything tangible to back up your beliefs please help us out. That would really help your cause and our questions more than anything.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 22, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> You have a firm conviction that you know where everything came from. I'll give you that. The bible says you have to believe it, so you do. You don't KNOW where it all came from any more than anyone else.
> 
> I'm not proud that I don't believe it. I'm not embarrassed either. I kind of wish it was convincing enough to make me think it was real.



I believe you mean that.
I don't know why I believe and you don't.  But I believe I'd rather you be debating against belief than to remove yourself completely from the subject.


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## emusmacker (Jun 22, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> @blueridge
> 
> Please break your comments out separate from mine next time.
> 
> ...



Yes, there have been times when I became frustrated with the things I couldn't answer. But I also wonder where my concious came from. i mean really, why don't animals know right from wrong. They will kill each other without any remorse. Sure a mother wolf may miss her pup if it dies but it doesn't mourn. It will also kill another pup just because it can. Where do humans get their conscience from. The many times I question things, I also get the answers to many from studying the scriptures. I've been on both sides of this whole arguement. And I'll admit there are many things I can't explain, but neither has anyone else. I also know enough about science to know that it can be manipulated and in most cases experiments are performed under perfect conditions. Not saying all science is that way, but that science can be made to "prove" facts that mey not be fact at all. I've seen the same experiments done by different people with each person having a different result. So to me, science can be fallible. 

Also, I have faith in MY beliefs, I believe that God is a triune being. To some that "ain't logical" but then again if God was logical all the time then He wouldn't be God. Just another "great person that was smarter than everyone else".  I'm sorry if I don't see things you're ways, but those references that ya'll keep posting to support your evidence was written by man just like the Bible.  and who's to say the info wasn't manipulated to support what those people believe. We don't know, but ya'll want so badly to believe it just like I want to bellieve the Bible. Who's wrong. I think ya'll are and ya'll think I am, so be it. But just as you calim that I have no evidence to supprot my "fairy tales" neither do you have INFALLIBLE proof that I'm wrong, just what some MEN have supposedly proven. 

So I end in saying this, I've been a non believer before, and yes some things I find hard to believe today. I used to say that seeing is believing, but I can't see the airwaves that bring images to my television but I know they do. I believe in the Bible. Is it complete, I also believe it is, but even if it isn't so what?  All I ask is to prove my beliefs wrong beyond any doubt.  Also, I don't like how things just seem to keep changing to rectify a situation, the Bible, despite what some try to say is still the best selling book in the world, and is written in more languages than any other book in the world. That many people can't be stupid or wrong.


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> The Bible doesn't make "claims".
> I believe the Bible records a tiny little speck of what mankind would never be able to fully comprehend in the first place.
> Those who believe in the Devine God will take what's given.  Those who don't believe in the Devine God will mock it and the one who created him/her.



Not only does it make claims, it's chock full of them.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 22, 2011)

emusmacker said:


> Yes, there have been times when I became frustrated with the things I couldn't answer. But I also wonder where my concious came from. i mean really, why don't animals know right from wrong. They will kill each other without any remorse. Sure a mother wolf may miss her pup if it dies but it doesn't mourn.



I've come to understand that I dont need to put much in to your posts... BUT.....


I have a LOT of dogs.. My dogs UNDERSTAND when they do something I don't like... Even before I know they did it. I can look at a dog and understand that she did something wrong before I even see what she chewed up. I see that they know right from wrong based on their experiences of their actions. Just like us... I SEE IT WITH MY OWN EYES.. I don't just read it in a book written by liars from the past (bible, school science books, whatever).

I have welped many litters of puppies... and when a puppy dies in the first few days, the mother really doesn't care. She cares about the puppies that are living. I've watched them take the lifeless puppies over to the corner, drop them off and go back to tend to the living puppies. She'll leave that puppy.

So.. I see conscious in all of my dogs. Understanding of things around them. Remembering and learning from their past experiences.

I stopped reading after what I quoted... by the way...


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

Blueridge one more thing concerning your "method". I said I hope it's different from that used by others who claim to have the real true religion which you recognize as a load of bull. Turns out your using the same method, most likely with the same results.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 23, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I believe you mean that.
> I don't know why I believe and you don't.  But I believe I'd rather you be debating against belief than to remove yourself completely from the subject.



I think you feel that way because I question my "dis-belief." I don't really feel that I do. I am at the point that it still frustrates me that I ever did believe... That it was ingrained in my head as a small child that stuck with me for a long time.. I had no choice in the matter for a long time.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 23, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I think you feel that way because I question my "dis-belief." I don't really feel that I do. I am at the point that it still frustrates me that I ever did believe... That it was ingrained in my head as a small child that stuck with me for a long time.. I had no choice in the matter for a long time.



Yep.  Nothing has a lot of meaning until we're able to make the choice for ourselves.
I hear where you're coming from.


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## AugustaDawg (Jun 23, 2011)

Has anyone read the link in post #244?
Thoughts?


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## emusmacker (Jun 23, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I've come to understand that I dont need to put much in to your posts... BUT.....
> 
> 
> I have a LOT of dogs.. My dogs UNDERSTAND when they do something I don't like... Even before I know they did it. I can look at a dog and understand that she did something wrong before I even see what she chewed up. I see that they know right from wrong based on their experiences of their actions. Just like us... I SEE IT WITH MY OWN EYES.. I don't just read it in a book written by liars from the past (bible, school science books, whatever).
> ...



Dogs are creatures of habit, they can learn from routines. For example you train a dog to fetch then for 4 yrs oyu never make him fetch. He will forget how. it's learned.  and as far as you not reading the rest of my post. I DON"T CARE!! Maybe that's why you don't understand real thruths. You want to put others down for not accepting the truth but then reject what others say. Hmmm, kinda hypocrical eh?  

I don't put much into your posts either. in fact I find em quite funny and entertaining. You want to post websites as references to support your ridiculous claims yet those same "studies, or findings or truth" as you call em were written by men too. Yet you find it so easy to believe them. That just shows that you pick and choose what you want to believe. and your beliefs change witht he wind.  also PROOF that what you have faith in is changed just to support what you think is right. Talk about non sense and credibility. You're losing ground quick man. real quick.


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## JFS (Jun 23, 2011)

emusmacker said:


> Sure a mother wolf may miss her pup if it dies but it doesn't mourn.



I don't know that mourning is the sine qua non of conscience but clearly some animals exhibit similar behaviors.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 23, 2011)

emusmacker said:


> Dogs are creatures of habit, they can learn from routines. For example you train a dog to fetch then for 4 yrs oyu never make him fetch. He will forget how. it's learned.  and as far as you not reading the rest of my post. I DON"T CARE!! Maybe that's why you don't understand real thruths. You want to put others down for not accepting the truth but then reject what others say. Hmmm, kinda hypocrical eh?
> 
> I don't put much into your posts either. in fact I find em quite funny and entertaining. You want to post websites as references to support your ridiculous claims yet those same "studies, or findings or truth" as you call em were written by men too. Yet you find it so easy to believe them. That just shows that you pick and choose what you want to believe. and your beliefs change witht he wind.  also PROOF that what you have faith in is changed just to support what you think is right. Talk about non sense and credibility. You're losing ground quick man. real quick.



I don't think I post links to other sites to give me credibility. Ever actually. Find one.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 23, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I hope you're saying "something to think about" the written "history" in the bible... which is similar in many ways to what you're talking about. That argument is nearly EXACTLY the argument a lot of us make about the bible.
> 
> You can't say what's written in the school history books is a bunch of junk because it was written by old liars, then say without a doubt that the bible is true... They are definitely different, but very similar in a lot of ways.. At least they are very similar in the ways you're talking about school history.
> 
> ...



I don't think you ever responded to this one.


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## atlashunter (Jun 23, 2011)




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## atlashunter (Jun 23, 2011)

Don't know what is going on in their minds when they do this but it makes you wonder.


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## Old Winchesters (Jun 23, 2011)

really?   okey dokey


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## emusmacker (Jun 24, 2011)

OK, I'll repond to your other statement. I said that about history being sarcastic. Do you believe history?  I have personally seen miracles happen. I don't expect you to believe me, but I know what I've seen. If you had taken the time to read my entire post, you may have seen where there are many things mentioned in the Bible that I don't understand. I also don't see the radio signals that travel through the air to my antenna, but I know it's there. I wasn't referring to you Triplexxx about posting links, but you never refute those links, leading me to believe you agree with em.  DO YOU.  I also said I've been on the non believing side too. But if I worried about everything that I couldn't understand or be explained I'd never enjoy life. So I'll tell you what, ya'll go on and keep doubting, and I'll keep believing and we'll just call it a truce. You see, you're not gonna convince me, and I'm not gonna convince you. So in reality this whole arguement is accomplishing much. Plus, I have more important things to discuss. 

FWIW, there are some interesting views and points made here. But then again I choose not to worry about em. So to each his own, and I'm out.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 24, 2011)

emusmacker said:


> Triplexxx about posting links, but you never refute those links, leading me to believe you agree with em.  DO YOU.



I probably agree with most of them because I tend to agree with what the people posting them say. I normally don't read them though.


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## AugustaDawg (Jun 24, 2011)

Did I somehow get on everyone's ignore list?  Nobody has responded to either of my posts.  #244 & #262


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 24, 2011)

It's probably the "long read" part. I don't read the short ones


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 24, 2011)

Welcome, bad 0351!


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## atlashunter (Jun 25, 2011)

AugustaDawg said:


> Did I somehow get on everyone's ignore list?  Nobody has responded to either of my posts.  #244 & #262



I listened to the better part of his talk. He makes quite a few unwarranted assumptions to say the least.


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## ted_BSR (Jun 25, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Don't know what is going on in their minds when they do this but it makes you wonder.



Makes me wonder how many times you have been to Disney.


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## bullethead (Jun 25, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcvbgq2SSyc


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## ted_BSR (Jul 2, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Sing a new tune, scripture doesn't mean diddly here.



You might be wrong about that.


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## Blueridge (Jul 2, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Blueridge one more thing concerning your "method". I said I hope it's different from that used by others who claim to have the real true religion which you recognize as a load of bull. Turns out your using the same method, most likely with the same results.



You " hope " sounds like your searching .
Just remember there is HOPE through Jesus Christ.
Praying for you.


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## The Original Rooster (Jul 3, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I would like you all to come to your senses .....please, and reconsider the folley of your choice to believe in an imaginary friend that will forgive all the bad you have done through your life on earth.....It aint gonna happen.
> If you have done bad things, you will live with it for the rest of your life....then you die and it all goes away...except for the people you have wronged, they will NEVER forgive OR forget what you did.
> I'm telling you this so you might enjoy your time here on earth while you can.
> Let go of this fairy tale while you can to avoid the disapointment you'll feel when you see the truth....you die and there is just nothing more.
> ...



Do you mean to say that you've never forgiven *anyone* in your entire life???


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 7, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I would like you all to come to your senses .....please, and reconsider the folley of your choice to believe in an imaginary friend that will forgive all the bad you have done through your life on earth.....It aint gonna happen.
> If you have done bad things, you will live with it for the rest of your life....then you die and it all goes away...except for the people you have wronged, they will NEVER forgive OR forget what you did.
> I'm telling you this so you might enjoy your time here on earth while you can.
> Let go of this fairy tale while you can to avoid the disapointment you'll feel when you see the truth....you die and there is just nothing more.
> ...





bullethead said:


> Sing a new tune, scripture doesn't mean diddly here.



Man, I missed out on a great thread back then!!!!   Was laughing out loud at some of the replies!  

I guess it is weird that the 'religious' hang out here.       Personally, I enjoy the banter.


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## JFS (Sep 7, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I guess it is weird that the 'religious' hang out here.       Personally, I enjoy the banter.



Not weird at all.    If you just hang out with the brainwashed what would you discuss, which version of the bible to read?   Apologetics is a more worthy outlet for your energy.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 7, 2011)

JFS said:


> Apologetics is a more worthy outlet for your energy.



Agreed!   lol     

Mark 2:17 -  Jesus ..... They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick

Oh, forgot.    Scripture doesn't mean diddly here!   LOL

You guys crack me up!


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## bullethead (Sep 7, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Agreed!   lol
> 
> Mark 2:17 -  Jesus ..... They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick
> 
> ...



Don't worry "We" are laughing right with you!


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## ted_BSR (Sep 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Don't worry "We" are laughing right with you!



Don't you mean "I" am laughing right with you?

How can you have a brotherhood based on disbelief? We all don't believe in anything! The gang of nothing.


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## bullethead (Sep 11, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Don't you mean "I" am laughing right with you?
> 
> How can you have a brotherhood based on disbelief? We all don't believe in anything! The gang of nothing.



There are things I believe in strongly and things that I don't. I am in good company on here with the "we" gang.


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## TheBishop (Sep 13, 2011)

bullethead said:


> There are things I believe in strongly and things that I don't. I am in good company on here with the "we" gang.


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## ted_BSR (Sep 13, 2011)

bullethead said:


> There are things I believe in strongly and things that I don't. I am in good company on here with the "we" gang.



Really? Good Company?

You can tell by their avatars I guess.


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## bullethead (Sep 13, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Really? Good Company?
> 
> You can tell by their avatars I guess.



I have no reason to think otherwise about any of them, or anyone that frequents here.


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## G5BONECRUSHER (Sep 13, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I would like you all to come to your senses .....please, and reconsider the folley of your choice to believe in an imaginary friend that will forgive all the bad you have done through your life on earth.....It aint gonna happen.
> If you have done bad things, you will live with it for the rest of your life....then you die and it all goes away...except for the people you have wronged, they will NEVER forgive OR forget what you did.
> I'm telling you this so you might enjoy your time here on earth while you can.
> Let go of this fairy tale while you can to avoid the disapointment you'll feel when you see the truth....you die and there is just nothing more.
> ...



Why would you think those who believe in Christ don't enjoy their time on this earth ?

 I believe that you are holding on to a fairy tale.

I pray that you find the Truth not so I can be right but so you can enjoy the blessings of Gods, mercy and grace.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 13, 2011)

Fairy tale? I mean this seriously.... I thought that when you blew out your candles, or saw a shooting star.... and TOLD SOMEONE what your wish was, it didn't come true?? Why did you tell?? 

Similar fairy tale?


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## ChickInATree (Sep 13, 2011)

This entire thread just seems to have no point. 
Neither side will change their mind based on a few huffy posts. 
You're simply bashing a religion you don't fully understand for no obvious reason other than to stir the pot and make people angry.
As for me? I stand behind a leader we can all love and trust.
Church of the FSM


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 13, 2011)

At first I thought... C'mon Chick... Understand this forum... PLEASE!

THEN I see the curve ball.. WHAT??


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## ted_BSR (Sep 14, 2011)

ChickInATree said:


> This entire thread just seems to have no point.
> Neither side will change their mind based on a few huffy posts.
> You're simply bashing a religion you don't fully understand for no obvious reason other than to stir the pot and make people angry.
> As for me? I stand behind a leader we can all love and trust.
> Church of the FSM



So you're just here to stir the pot too? Welcome, you'll fit right in.


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## G5BONECRUSHER (Sep 16, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I don't doubt the "chosen people" ended up in Egypt due to famine and I don't doubt they stayed for a couple hundred years, but I do doubt 600,000 of them headed out in a massive exodus and it went down the way the bible says it did. They may have left over time in a constant flow of small groups and settled in Samaria. The story that is told is legend and folklore to give the backbone of their religion and laws some basis.



Wheres your proof?


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## bullethead (Sep 16, 2011)

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> Wheres your proof?



Proof? I have about as much as you do. So I go with what what makes the most sense.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/his.../2500_BCE-539_BCE/Social_History/Exodus.shtml

http://www.bibleorigins.net/ExodusProblems.html


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