# Who is a Christian and whi is not a Christian?



## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

_{OOPS! Bad start! misspelled Who in the subject! Should read "Who is a Christian and who is not a Christian?"}_
Main scripture for this thought is (KJV) Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:'
So, 1st off, this scripture leaves no doubt, that it is referring ONLY to those who belong to a church that professes to be Christian, because they are calling  Jesus Lord. Next, these are not passive, dress for church on Sunday people, they mention all the works they did in Jesus name= ACTIVE IN THEIR CHURCHES!
Yet Jesus says he doesn't even know them.
Why?
I would guess that the main reason, is that they are active doing what THEY WANT TO DO AS WOULD BE CHRISTIANS. Rather than to actually follow Jesus example and listen to his commands.
Did Jesus say to Build hospitals & colleges, have sport teams, force christianity on Muslims, fight wars and kill for your country? [Don't get all fired up now  this is just a discussion! Try to think clearly, perhaps even past any dogmatic or political stiff necked convictions you may already have + I WILL DO THE SAME]
Did he himself or his apostles get involved with any such things, so that we would follow the example?
What then, would a person do to be a true "follower" of Jesus?
When you read the christian greek scriptures, what does Jesus do, that we are able to follow?
We can't heal the sick, blind, lame or raise the dead. We can't cast out demons or calm the seas.
So, of what Jesus was best known for, what's left?
I'll save my own thoughts and scriptural backing for later.
Now, i'll leave the discussion open to you all.
PLEASE, PLEASE stick to the immediate subject?
I've read so many threads here that go wildly astray.
Subject: Who is a Christian and who is not a Christian? Based on Matthew 7:21-23


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## gordon 2 (Sep 15, 2007)

Their is a place in one's spiritual life where one has a personal relationship with the Lord or one does not have it.

A dog can sometimes bark on yesterday's old track or even hound backwards and go from fresh to old, all the time their yoddle "Lord, Lord!"


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## Twenty five ought six (Sep 15, 2007)

> Next, these are not passive, dress for church on Sunday people, they mention all the works they did in Jesus name= ACTIVE IN THEIR CHURCHES!



I do a lot of works in the Lord's name, and very little of it through the church --- so that doesn't count?


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## SnowHunter (Sep 15, 2007)

so am I correct in reading that if you are not active in Church you are not considered a Christian??


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## FishFanatic (Sep 15, 2007)

Thats what he said her1911, but I don't see how that comes from the given passage.


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## crackerdave (Sep 15, 2007)

When a thread attempts to determine what only GOD can determine,it can't serve any purpose but to stir up trouble.Just from what I've observed.


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## hunter_58 (Sep 15, 2007)

[So, 1st off, this scripture leaves no doubt, that it is referring ONLY to those who belong to a church]

I think you're 1st assumption is wrong!
I happy that god will be judging our actions, because i'm sure to be blackballed if man were allowed to vote on it.


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## HuntinTom (Sep 15, 2007)

I'm safe - I use the NIV - I think it translates this something like:   _Everybody goes to heaven - Even dogs... _


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## Festus (Sep 15, 2007)

FishFanatic said:


> Thats what he said her1911, but I don't see how that comes from the given passage.



Agreed...interesting translation...


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*I must be missing something?*

*I don't see how that fits into such a specific scripture?
*


gordon 2 said:


> Their is a place in one's spiritual life where one has a personal relationship with the Lord or one does not have it.
> 
> A dog can sometimes bark on yesterday's old track or even hound backwards and go from fresh to old, all the time their yoddle "Lord, Lord!"


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*They count, one way or the other*

The question and scripture remain unanswered though. Leaving the question: Are the works you do, those that Jesus did and taught his diciples to do? Or are they of your choosing? It was my error to imply all had to be through a church. I'm sure Jesus statement will apply to many who did works outside of any church. The question is- will he still say "I never knew you" ??
The question all replies have carefully avoided so far, is "What then, would a person do to be a true "follower" of Jesus?
When you read the christian greek scriptures, what does Jesus do, that we are able to follow?
"


Twenty five ought six said:


> I do a lot of works in the Lord's name, and very little of it through the church --- so that doesn't count?


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*No, that not what I meant. My mistake in wording.*

*You didn't actually quote me, you left some out and added the idea "THE CHURCH" I said "1st off, this scripture leaves no doubt, that it is referring ONLY to those who belong to a church that professes to be Christian, because they are calling Jesus Lord."
But, I still overstated belonging to a church and doing works through a church. My mistake. On a grand scale, works are generally done through churches, good, bad, acceptable or as Jesus made clear in the scripture I used, works he disregards, the workers of which, he does not even know, nor want near him.
Sorry thats all you got out of my post. I've read all the current replies and I can see that noone wants to step up and actually try to reply to what i'm saying. Just beat around the bush, nitpicking my wording.
I'm not being a jerk, i'm just frank and to the point about what I have to say.*


Her1911 said:


> so am I correct in reading that if you are not active in Church you are not considered a Christian??


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*No, you are looking too closely at a minor thought*

*I do not mean that. Try to answer the post, if you would.*


Her1911 said:


> so am I correct in reading that if you are not active in Church you are not considered a Christian??


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*? HUH? *

I don't understand your reply?





FishFanatic said:


> Thats what he said her1911, but I don't see how that comes from the given passage.


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*I think all things can be discussed*

*You may see it that way, because you don't want to give the honest answers you know in your heart.
Your reply could be made under just about any thought on this forum.*


rangerdave said:


> When a thread attempts to determine what only GOD can determine,it can't serve any purpose but to stir up trouble.Just from what I've observed.


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*Once again, you missed the point*

*You also misquoted me. That is not what I said. I said "1st off, this scripture leaves no doubt, that it is referring ONLY to those who belong to a church that professes to be Christian, because they are calling Jesus Lord."
You did find, along with others, a tiny point to reply to, but completely missed the posts main point.
Let me rephrase, so that some of you can think beyond this mistaken wording--- "1st off, this scripture leaves no doubt, that it is referring ONLY to those who belong to a church that professes to be Christian, or individuals professing to be Christian, because they are calling Jesus Lord."
Can you reply to the point of the post with this rewording?*


hunter_58 said:


> [So, 1st off, this scripture leaves no doubt, that it is referring ONLY to those who belong to a church]
> 
> I think you're 1st assumption is wrong!
> I happy that god will be judging our actions, because i'm sure to be blackballed if man were allowed to vote on it.


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*Do you mean you understand??? *

*Please translate for me!!! *


Festus said:


> Agreed...interesting translation...


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## PWalls (Sep 15, 2007)

That scripture means no-one can be "good" enough to get to Heaven.

When Mother Teresa died and got before Jesus, and her lifelong list of accomplishments for the needy and downtrodden was read, it availed her nothing if she didn't have Jesus in her heart.

So, as for your opening premise, I don't agree. No where in that scripture you provided does it indicate that Jesus is talking about "Christians" only. He is talking about lost sinners that try and "work" their way into Heaven. He is referring to every person's sinful works. Even the demons know His name and can call it out. They don't get to Heaven either.

Again, this is another set of scripture that describes man's futility in trying to "work" towards Salvation. The only way to get there is to rely on the Mercy and Grace that was shown through Jesus' blood.


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## jneil (Sep 15, 2007)

5282jt said:


> Main scripture for this thought is (KJV) Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:'



I don't see anything relating to being active in a Church in this quote.


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## SnowHunter (Sep 15, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *I do not mean that. Try to answer the post, if you would.*



actually I was just looking for clarification is all...I'll leave this one up to the Bible Scholars we have around here


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## Twenty five ought six (Sep 15, 2007)

> Let me rephrase, so that some of you can think beyond this mistaken wording--- "1st off, this scripture leaves no doubt, that it is referring ONLY to those who belong to a church that professes to be Christian, or individuals professing to be Christian, because they are calling Jesus Lord."
> _Can you reply to the point of the post with this rewording?_



Nope, have to admit you have me totally flummoxed as to the point that you are trying to make (or the question you are trying to ask).


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## jimbo4116 (Sep 15, 2007)

5282jt said:


> _{OOPS! Bad start! misspelled Who in the subject! Should read "Who is a Christian and who is not a Christian?"}_
> Main scripture for this thought is (KJV) Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:'
> So, 1st off, this scripture leaves no doubt, that it is referring ONLY to those who belong to a church that professes to be Christian, because they are calling  Jesus Lord. Next, these are not passive, dress for church on Sunday people, they mention all the works they did in Jesus name= ACTIVE IN THEIR CHURCHES!
> Yet Jesus says he doesn't even know them.
> ...



I fail to see where you interpet the need to belong to a "Church" in those scriptures.  Christ did not establish a "church".  

If you cannot find faith in your heart that Jesus is the son of God and died here on earth to redeem man of his sins, you will not find a verse in the bible that will give you that faith.  Regardless of how you worship, you must have that faith.  Your faith is how Jesus will recognize you, not your clothes, your good deeds, your donations. Your Faith in his redemption must be unshakeable and difine your relationship with Jesus.

I beleive  the things that impress men will not neccessarily impress God.  Your Faith cannot be seen by man no matter how hard you try to show it.  Men cannot see your soul, only the Lord can do that.  As long as you look to men for a reason to have that faith, Jesus will not know you.


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*Y, I already admitted I was in error on the "church" point*

*Do you have a response to the point of the post?*


jneil said:


> I don't see anything relating to being active in a Church in this quote.


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*Congratulations!*

*You are the 1st to attempt to actually answer the question posed.
In reply to {{I don't agree. No where in that scripture you provided does it indicate that Jesus is talking about "Christians" only.}}, i'd say that the scripture appears very clearly to be speaking only to those professing to be Christians. Who else does works in Jesus name, calls him Lord, etc? The demons shudder at the thought of Jesus, but they don't call him Lord nor would they speak the words in the scripture.
Thank you for your honest thoughts!!!*


PWalls said:


> That scripture means no-one can be "good" enough to get to Heaven.
> 
> When Mother Teresa died and got before Jesus, and her lifelong list of accomplishments for the needy and downtrodden was read, it availed her nothing if she didn't have Jesus in her heart.
> 
> ...


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*Got me on the Church word again! *

*That's been about beat to death now. It speaks of active "professed" Christians-not non Christians.*


jneil said:


> I don't see anything relating to being active in a Church in this quote.


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*OK How about this?*

*The point of the scripture is to prove that some professing to be Christian and appearing to be quite active in works are not considered to be true Christians by Jesus-according to his words.
The question I asked, is what then, constitutes a true Christian follower of Jesus-one he would not be saying this about?
My thought was, that this scripture-Jesus' words were about prefessed Christians who do works, but they are not the works Jesus did [so they are not following his example] but, they are works the professed Christians themselves want to do {I mentioned building colleges, hospitals, etc etc= all good things perhaps, but NOT the works Jesus left us an example of, by his and his apostles own works.
I hope this is clearer?*


Twenty five ought six said:


> Nope, have to admit you have me totally flummoxed as to the point that you are trying to make (or the question you are trying to ask).


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*Thankyou for a real response! Real effort!*

*Forget the word "CHURCH" sorry I used it! Jesus was speaking to those who do works in his name and call him lord, that would not be athiests, heathens and pagans, but professed Christians. I could eloborate on the fact that Christ did establish a church [the word church just means a congregation of people and he certainly had that!] But that is not sticking to the subject of the post.
Also, you can find faith in your heart, but that faith has to be established on accurate teachings. Many religions have faith in their hearts, but do not even believe in Jesus or worship his God. So, it takes more than that, that's the easy way. Heb 10:24,25 admonishes us to assemble together and encourage one another. You have to get together in a group to do that and you then technically become what the word church means. It takes faith, together with works to please God and obey Jesus words. Not just faith.[/


jimbo4116 said:



			I fail to see where you interpet the need to belong to a "Church" in those scriptures.  Christ did not establish a "church".  

If you cannot find faith in your heart that Jesus is the son of God and died here on earth to redeem man of his sins, you will not find a verse in the bible that will give you that faith.  Regardless of how you worship, you must have that faith.  Your faith is how Jesus will recognize you, not your clothes, your good deeds, your donations. Your Faith in his redemption must be unshakeable and difine your relationship with Jesus.

I beleive  the things that impress men will not neccessarily impress God.  Your Faith cannot be seen by man no matter how hard you try to show it.  Men cannot see your soul, only the Lord can do that.  As long as you look to men for a reason to have that faith, Jesus will not know you.
		
Click to expand...

*


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## hunter_58 (Sep 15, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *You also misquoted me. That is not what I said. I said "1st off, this scripture leaves no doubt, that it is referring ONLY to those who belong to a church that professes to be Christian, because they are calling Jesus Lord."
> You did find, along with others, a tiny point to reply to, but completely missed the posts main point.
> Let me rephrase, so that some of you can think beyond this mistaken wording--- "1st off, this scripture leaves no doubt, that it is referring ONLY to those who belong to a church that professes to be Christian, or individuals professing to be Christian, because they are calling Jesus Lord."
> Can you reply to the point of the post with this rewording?*



with all due respect how can i misquote you, when i cut and past from your words??????????????

I replied to you, that i thought you are wrong in your interpretation.

Now that you have expanded on your question.
["1st off, this scripture leaves no doubt, that it is referring ONLY to those who belong to a church that professes to be Christian]

I still disagree, when you say belong to a church.
How about explaining what you think belong to a church means???
If you were stranded on an island, by yourself for the rest of your life, and you lived your life like you are supposed to, will god know you????? and what is the difference


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## PWalls (Sep 15, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *You are the 1st to attempt to actually answer the question posed.
> In reply to {{I don't agree. No where in that scripture you provided does it indicate that Jesus is talking about "Christians" only.}}, i'd say that the scripture appears very clearly to be speaking only to those professing to be Christians. Who else does works in Jesus name, calls him Lord, etc? The demons shudder at the thought of Jesus, but they don't call him Lord nor would they speak the words in the scripture.
> Thank you for your honest thoughts!!!*



Sorry, but you are still trying to imply that Jesus was talking to Christians in those verses. I do not believe that He is nor find evidence of your supposition in that Scripture.

There are sadly probably a lot of "Christians" in Church (or not) right now who think they are saved but never really put their faith in Jesus. They will go through the "motions" of being "religious" and being "Christian". They will tithe and help the homeless and may even witness about their "faith". But, it will avail them nothing because "works" do not get you to Heaven. That is to whom Jesus is addressing in that Scripture.


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## jneil (Sep 15, 2007)

What does "Works" get you?


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*I appreciate your respectful attitude!*

*I felt it was misquoting me, by cutting and pasting 3/4 of my sentence, rather than the whole sentence. You pasted "[So, 1st off, this scripture leaves no doubt, that it is referring ONLY to those who belong to a church] but what I actually said in the remainder of the sentence, that you cut out, was "belong to a church that professes to be Christian, because they are calling Jesus Lord." Whole different point, don't you think?
You said "I replied to you, that i thought you are wrong in your interpretation."
That could be, it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, just ask my wife! 
You said "Now that you have expanded on your question.
["1st off, this scripture leaves no doubt, that it is referring ONLY to those who belong to a church that professes to be Christian]

I still disagree, when you say belong to a church."
OK  I retract the words "belong to a church" I replace them with "those who profess to be Christians and followers of Christ."
I also belive that yes, if you were stranded on an island and did all you could to please God, he and his son Jesus, would certainly find that acceptable.
That would not in most cases pertain to what Jesus was talking about though, in the scripture.
You are a thinking person and not afraid to speak up! I respect that 100%


"*


hunter_58 said:


> with all due respect how can i misquote you, when i cut and past from your words??????????????
> 
> I replied to you, that i thought you are wrong in your interpretation.
> 
> ...


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*Yes, I am more than implying  That's what I believe he was saying*

*THERE! YOU SAID IT! BINGO!!! I agree- You said "There are sadly probably a lot of "Christians" in Church (or not) right now who think they are saved but never really put their faith in Jesus. They will go through the "motions" of being "religious" and being "Christian". They will tithe and help the homeless and may even witness about their "faith". But, it will avail them nothing because "works" do not get you to Heaven. That is to whom Jesus is addressing in that Scripture. {{ I would add to your description those who do not attempt, to the best of their ability, to follow Jesus' example in action and deeds. It's true works alone is not the answer, but neither is faith alone the answer-it takes both= King James Version (KJV)

Passage James 2:17:

   17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
.[/"**
I appreciate your input. In all honesty, I don't see how anyone could read anything else into that scripture?
He said*


PWalls said:


> Sorry, but you are still trying to imply that Jesus was talking to Christians in those verses. I do not believe that He is nor find evidence of your supposition in that Scripture.
> 
> There are sadly probably a lot of "Christians" in Church (or not) right now who think they are saved but never really put their faith in Jesus. They will go through the "motions" of being "religious" and being "Christian". They will tithe and help the homeless and may even witness about their "faith". But, it will avail them nothing because "works" do not get you to Heaven. That is to whom Jesus is addressing in that Scripture.


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*Works gets you a live faith*

*Because the bible says flat out "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD"*


jneil said:


> What does "Works" get you?


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## Festus (Sep 15, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *Please translate for me!!! *



Ok, I'll try....your post are muddled and unclear...I don't have a clue on what you are trying to say


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## farmasis (Sep 15, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *Because the bible says flat out "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD"*



That doesn't mean you are not going to heaven, it means you have little faith.


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## farmasis (Sep 15, 2007)

I believe the passage is referring to false prophets who claim to be doing the work of God, and not Christians.The previous passage warns us to be careful of them and that they will be known by their fruits. In this way, not every one who calls on the name of Jesus will be saved, because they are actually doing the work of others (demons?).


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*Oh, I thought it mean what it said? *

*I didn't think dead faith would get a person to heaven?
Have you considered James 2:14 through 26 ??????*


farmasis said:


> That doesn't mean you are not going to heaven, it means you have little faith.


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*I can sure hear your christianity in these words!*

Hmmmm, I wonder if it's me or you? I at least have something to post about. You obviously don't have a clue, as you said.





Festus said:


> Ok, I'll try....your post are muddled and unclear...I don't have a clue on what you are trying to say


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## 5282jt (Sep 15, 2007)

*Thats an interesting point of view*

*I don't read that into it, but it's not an unreasonable thought either. I just don't picture false prophets calling on Jesus as their Lord?*


farmasis said:


> I believe the passage is referring to false prophets who claim to be doing the work of God, and not Christians.The previous passage warns us to be careful of them and that they will be known by their fruits. In this way, not every one who calls on the name of Jesus will be saved, because they are actually doing the work of others (demons?).


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## Flash (Sep 15, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *I don't read that into it, but it's not an unreasonable thought either. I just don't picture false prophets calling on Jesus as their Lord?*



 SOME on TV SEEM to be false


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## Wire Nut (Sep 15, 2007)

I don't believe you have to go to church to be a christian, but I do believe that if there is no desire to find a congregation of fellow believers there is probably an issue at hand!!  I don't have to live with my wife to be legally married to her, but because of my love for her I desire to have a relationship.  Even the demons and satan himself know who Jesus is and they're not in Heaven.  Too many people are wrapped up in doing eberything that comes there way in the church(works) that they have completely missed what God is wanting them to do and some are doing all this trying to work their way to Heaven.  Back to the calling on His name, only by being cleansed by the blood of Christ can you be saved.  You must surrender everything to Him and that means even your check book!  You can call His name all you want, but until there is a change in your life, there is no salvation.  If you call His name and believe in Him but go on with your life commiting all the same old sins the next day, that was only an emotional experience.  You need to call on His name but also turn your life over to Him and become available to His calling.  He wants to use you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## farmasis (Sep 16, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *I didn't think dead faith would get a person to heaven?
> Have you considered James 2:14 through 26 ??????*



Yes, nothing there deals with saving faith.

It deals with putting faith in God in our lives and to demonstrate that to others by doing works. James is teaching Christians (already saved) how to behave. He starts with telling them to not show favortism. Then, he tells them that dead or false faith cannot save. Not save himself, but to bring others to salvation. That is why the next sentence is an illustration of that by not helping another in need, but just wishing him well and not helping him.
Then he explains that to appear faithful and to be justified in the eyes of man we should have works.
In verse 21 James appears to contradict himself by saying wasn't Abraham justified by offering his son on the altar? (actions). That was justified in the sight of man. But, in the sight of God, he was justified by believeing God. However, because he truely believed in God and was his friend, his actions followed in the lead of his faith's footsteps.

Romans 4 deals with saving faith.


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## farmasis (Sep 16, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *I don't read that into it, but it's not an unreasonable thought either. I just don't picture false prophets calling on Jesus as their Lord?*



Got to read it all in context:

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


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## farmasis (Sep 16, 2007)

jeremy sharpton said:


> I don't believe you have to go to church to be a christian, but I do believe that if there is no desire to find a congregation of fellow believers there is probably an issue at hand!!  I don't have to live with my wife to be legally married to her, but because of my love for her I desire to have a relationship.  Even the demons and satan himself know who Jesus is and they're not in Heaven.  Too many people are wrapped up in doing eberything that comes there way in the church(works) that they have completely missed what God is wanting them to do and some are doing all this trying to work their way to Heaven.  Back to the calling on His name, only by being cleansed by the blood of Christ can you be saved.  You must surrender everything to Him and that means even your check book!  You can call His name all you want, but until there is a change in your life, there is no salvation.  If you call His name and believe in Him but go on with your life commiting all the same old sins the next day, that was only an emotional experience.  You need to call on His name but also turn your life over to Him and become available to His calling.  He wants to use you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I agree with most of your post, however an unchanged life is a symptom that the person may not have accepted salvation.
If we have to wait until our life changes to have salvation, then when does it happen? If a drunkard is saved, but drinks again, was he really saved? We might go on committing the same old sins after we are saved, but there should be conviction and we should feel the need to ask for forgiveness and try to turn away from them (repent).
Life changes do not always happen immediately. We do not stop battling flesh at salvation, it has just begun.
I know I am still working on mine.


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## PWalls (Sep 16, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *THERE! YOU SAID IT! BINGO!!! I agree- You said "There are sadly probably a lot of "Christians" in Church (or not) right now who think they are saved but never really put their faith in Jesus. They will go through the "motions" of being "religious" and being "Christian". They will tithe and help the homeless and may even witness about their "faith". But, it will avail them nothing because "works" do not get you to Heaven. That is to whom Jesus is addressing in that Scripture. {{ I would add to your description those who do not attempt, to the best of their ability, to follow Jesus' example in action and deeds. It's true works alone is not the answer, but neither is faith alone the answer-it takes both= King James Version (KJV)
> 
> Passage James 2:17:
> 
> ...



That's just it. The people I referred to in my post ARE NOT CHRISTIANS. They think they are, but they are not. You can do works and "act" like a Christian all you want to, but unless you truly believe, then you are not one and only deceive yourself. A born-again believer in Jesus Christ, a true Christian, will never have to worry about Jesus turning them away. He is clearly referring to unbelievers in those passages.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 16, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *I don't see how that fits into such a specific scripture?
> *



Specific, I count at least five, six question marks(?) in your initial post?

Context is everything. Matt. 15  Watch out for false prophets... and ....Matt. 24 Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them in to practice is like a....

 I don't think the section is specific to christians. His address was to a lot of folks who were not "christian". The church and state in those days was not seperate in the mind of ordinary folk or for some of the political-religious leadership for that matter. His address is to the the hearts of people's spiritual lives. Jews, Samarians, Galilaens, romans, bums and pious bums. In many ways the social and moral jig was out of true for many. The gate was narrow for alot of folk, because the will of God was prostituted for state, culture and "our way of life".


----------



## jimbo4116 (Sep 16, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *Forget the word "CHURCH" sorry I used it! Jesus was speaking to those who do works in his name and call him lord, that would not be athiests, heathens and pagans, but professed Christians. I could eloborate on the fact that Christ did establish a church [the word church just means a congregation of people and he certainly had that!] But that is not sticking to the subject of the post.
> Also, you can find faith in your heart, but that faith has to be established on accurate teachings. Many religions have faith in their hearts, but do not even believe in Jesus or worship his God. So, it takes more than that, that's the easy way. Heb 10:24,25 admonishes us to assemble together and encourage one another. You have to get together in a group to do that and you then technically become what the word church means. It takes faith, together with works to please God and obey Jesus words. Not just faith.[/*


*

You failed to read that I said faith in Jesus Christ and the fact he died to redeem our sins .

Also, I put Church in quotes to emphasize that many of today's "churches" have become more about the works of the "Church" than about Faith in Christ.

Lastly, if you have Faith in Jesus Christ and his teachings, then you will follow the teachings of Christ and work to help others to find that Faith also.*


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## Festus (Sep 16, 2007)

5282jt said:


> Hmmmm, I wonder if it's me or you? I at least have something to post about. You obviously don't have a clue, as you said.



In the immortal words of Forest Gump "I'm not a smart man".   So when you create a post or address an audience you should always dumb it down so people like me can understand what you are trying to say.   Otherwise you'll wind up arguing with only the smart people on here and what fun is that.


----------



## No. GA. Mt. Man (Sep 16, 2007)

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Jn. 3:3, 6-7.


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## hunter_58 (Sep 16, 2007)

Festus said:


> In the immortal words of Forest Gump "I'm not a smart man".   So when you create a post or address an audience you should always dumb it down so people like me can understand what you are trying to say.   Otherwise you'll wind up arguing with only the smart people on here and what fun is that.



I'll probably need to borrow this quote, a few times, if thats ok.


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## hunter_58 (Sep 16, 2007)

No. GA. Mt. Man said:


> Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Jn. 3:3, 6-7.



This is a good one!!!!!
I wish you would break this down, and tell us what it means to you, and also anyone else that would like to break it down. 
thanks


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## squarepeg (Sep 16, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Festus  
In the immortal words of Forest Gump "I'm not a smart man". So when you create a post or address an audience you should always dumb it down so people like me can understand what you are trying to say. Otherwise you'll wind up arguing with only the smart people on here and what fun is that.  




hunter_58 said:


> I'll probably need to borrow this quote, a few times, if thats ok.



I would like to get in line behind you Hunter58, cause I am still shaking my head.


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## crackerdave (Sep 16, 2007)

"God is not the author of confusion."


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## 5282jt (Sep 16, 2007)

*Sure do! Nice suits and watches though! *

*Can you imagine going through all that yelling, crying and gesturing and being sincere, meek ministers of God?
I can't*


Flash said:


> SOME on TV SEEM to be false


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## 5282jt (Sep 16, 2007)

*What can I say?*

*I agree with you!*


jeremy sharpton said:


> I don't believe you have to go to church to be a christian, but I do believe that if there is no desire to find a congregation of fellow believers there is probably an issue at hand!!  I don't have to live with my wife to be legally married to her, but because of my love for her I desire to have a relationship.  Even the demons and satan himself know who Jesus is and they're not in Heaven.  Too many people are wrapped up in doing eberything that comes there way in the church(works) that they have completely missed what God is wanting them to do and some are doing all this trying to work their way to Heaven.  Back to the calling on His name, only by being cleansed by the blood of Christ can you be saved.  You must surrender everything to Him and that means even your check book!  You can call His name all you want, but until there is a change in your life, there is no salvation.  If you call His name and believe in Him but go on with your life commiting all the same old sins the next day, that was only an emotional experience.  You need to call on His name but also turn your life over to Him and become available to His calling.  He wants to use you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## 5282jt (Sep 16, 2007)

*Pretty close to what I believe myself. Most important=*

*The most important ststement you made is "because he truely believed in God and was his friend, his actions followed in the lead of his faith's footsteps" So, if a person says they have faith, but show no works, their faith is a dead faith.*


farmasis said:


> Yes, nothing there deals with saving faith.
> 
> It deals with putting faith in God in our lives and to demonstrate that to others by doing works. James is teaching Christians (already saved) how to behave. He starts with telling them to not show favortism. Then, he tells them that dead or false faith cannot save. Not save himself, but to bring others to salvation. That is why the next sentence is an illustration of that by not helping another in need, but just wishing him well and not helping him.
> Then he explains that to appear faithful and to be justified in the eyes of man we should have works.
> ...


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## 5282jt (Sep 16, 2007)

*I agree, you do have to read it all in context-BUT *

*The context that begins at Mathew 15, that you quoted, ends with verse 20. It even has the sound of fianality =
"New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Passage Matthew 7:20:

   20"So then, you will know them (A)by their fruits. 
" -just as the context prior to verse 15 is different, so is the context from verse 21 through the end of chapter 7.*


farmasis said:


> Got to read it all in context:
> 
> 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
> 
> 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


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## 5282jt (Sep 16, 2007)

*I completely disagree. What you are saying now, is a play on words*

*Are you saying that only people who claim to be of the "BORN AGAIN" persuasion are true Christians and the rest are what Jesus spoke of at Mathew 7:21 ???
If you do feel that way, I disagree, BUT!! That is the way everyone should feel- like they are involved in the only true religion on Earth! All the demoninations referring to themselves as Christian, teach different doctrines- there is only truthful teachings and false teachings. The bible makes that very clear. It does not teach, nor do I believe, that all religions [or so called Christian denominations] are different paths leading to God. I do not believe in interfaith. I do believe in live and let live, so I certainly would not agree with bashing a religion. I'll bash a false teaching though! Bota bing bota boom! *


PWalls said:


> That's just it. The people I referred to in my post ARE NOT CHRISTIANS. They think they are, but they are not. You can do works and "act" like a Christian all you want to, but unless you truly believe, then you are not one and only deceive yourself. A born-again believer in Jesus Christ, a true Christian, will never have to worry about Jesus turning them away. He is clearly referring to unbelievers in those passages.


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## 5282jt (Sep 16, 2007)

*Yes, I did have specific questions on this subject*

*I summarized the post in those questions =
"What then, would a person do to be a true "follower" of Jesus?
When you read the christian greek scriptures, what does Jesus do, that we are able to follow?
We can't heal the sick, blind, lame or raise the dead. We can't cast out demons or calm the seas.
So, of what Jesus was best known for, what's left?
I'll save my own thoughts and scriptural backing for later.
Now, i'll leave the discussion open to you all.
PLEASE, PLEASE stick to the immediate subject?
I've read so many threads here that go wildly astray.
Subject: Who is a Christian and who is not a Christian? Based on Matthew 7:21-23"[/
Context is everything, I agree. But context begins and ends too. The context you refer to, clearly did not begin until verse 15 and clearly ended with verse 20.
I think he made it very obvious who he was referring to. Those who call him their Lord and try to do works in Jesus name. 
I certainly agree with these words of yours and they still ring 100% true today!= "the will of God was prostituted for state, culture and "our way of life".[/"B]



gordon 2 said:



			Specific, I count at least five, six question marks(?) in your initial post?

Context is everything. Matt. 15  Watch out for false prophets... and ....Matt. 24 Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them in to practice is like a....

 I don't think the section is specific to christians. His address was to a lot of folks who were not "christian". The church and state in those days was not seperate in the mind of ordinary folk or for some of the political-religious leadership for that matter. His address is to the the hearts of people's spiritual lives. Jews, Samarians, Galilaens, romans, bums and pious bums. In many ways the social and moral jig was out of true for many. The gate was narrow for alot of folk, because the will of God was prostituted for state, culture and "our way of life".
		
Click to expand...

*


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## 5282jt (Sep 16, 2007)

*Sorry if I failed to read your post properly *

*There is nothing in this post, that you said, that I disagree with at all.*


jimbo4116 said:


> You failed to read that I said faith in Jesus Christ and the fact he died to redeem our sins .
> 
> Also, I put Church in quotes to emphasize that many of today's "churches" have become more about the works of the "Church" than about Faith in Christ.
> 
> Lastly, if you have Faith in Jesus Christ and his teachings, then you will follow the teachings of Christ and work to help others to find that Faith also.


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## 5282jt (Sep 16, 2007)

*Touchette! I apologize, I thought you were trying to be a jerk *

*I misunderstood I guess.
I don't know how I can be a whole lot dumber than I am? I only have an 8th grade education and they only passed me into 8th because the teacher who had me for 2 years in 7th hated me! 
I have very little formal education, but in my own behalf  I feel that I am well educated in the bible. I believe it 100% and strive to live my life accordingly-every day.
Please, if I can explain myself in any way, ask me a specific question about my post.
It wasn't that i'm smart, it was probably just poorly structured???*



Festus said:


> In the immortal words of Forest Gump "I'm not a smart man".   So when you create a post or address an audience you should always dumb it down so people like me can understand what you are trying to say.   Otherwise you'll wind up arguing with only the smart people on here and what fun is that.


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## 5282jt (Sep 16, 2007)

*I am familiar with the scripture and with the general thinking of those who seperate themselves as "born again christians"
I have learned through the years, never to assume that i'm right in what "I think" someones beliefs are. What is your statement of belief in being born again? What does it entail, that "non born again denominations" don't do?
I'm ready to learn!!*


No. GA. Mt. Man said:


> Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Jn. 3:3, 6-7.


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## 5282jt (Sep 16, 2007)

*Sorry Squarepeg.*

*When I write [post] I "feel" like i'm making perfect sense!
As I told Festus, if you have a question on any part of my post, please ask it.
Thanks*


squarepeg said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Festus
> In the immortal words of Forest Gump "I'm not a smart man". So when you create a post or address an audience you should always dumb it down so people like me can understand what you are trying to say. Otherwise you'll wind up arguing with only the smart people on here and what fun is that.
> 
> ...


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## 5282jt (Sep 16, 2007)

*??? OK ???*

*The point being???? *


rangerdave said:


> "God is not the author of confusion."


----------



## crackerdave (Sep 16, 2007)

The point being: I think you might be what is known here as a "troll!"


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## 5282jt (Sep 16, 2007)

*I have heard of trolls, but i'm nor sure what their purpose is?*

*What have I done wrong, that makes you call me a troll? I have noticed that even though you have made a number of reply posts to my post, you have not made any effort to contribute anything meaningful, as many others have, just a sentence here and there. Is there a name for that???*


rangerdave said:


> The point being: I think you might be what is known here as a "troll!"


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## 5282jt (Sep 16, 2007)

*I just looked up trolling and found the meaning*

*And i'm not one!=
"Trolling 
The most likely derivation of the word troll can be found in the phrase "trolling for newbies," popularized in the early 1990s in the Usenet group, alt.folklore.urban.[4][5] Commonly, what is meant is a relatively gentle inside joke by veteran users, presenting questions or topics that had been so overdone that only a new user would respond to them earnestly.
"[/
So, if you have nothing more than name calling "TROLL" and nothing  meaningful[and it seems you don't?] to contribute to my topic, could you just leave it to those who have an interest and are [hopefully] gaining something worthwhile from out conversation? I know I am learning some things I didn't know about others religious beliefs, prior to this thread!
If you don't like my topic, or me, aren't there other topics for you to read? Can't you just pass mine by???
Or are you trolling for trouble? B]*


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## crackerdave (Sep 16, 2007)

I thought I stated my feelings about your project in pretty plain words in post # 6.


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## squarepeg (Sep 17, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *When I write [post] I "feel" like i'm making perfect sense!
> As I told Festus, if you have a question on any part of my post, please ask it.
> Thanks*



It is a good thing that you feel you make perfect sense.
But I feel you are trying to elicit an argument in order to justify your position.

I consider myself a Christian because I have been Baptized and born again, I believe that Christ died for my redemption and rose again to go home to the Lord.
I do not profess to understand the text of the Bible, I do know that all the good works I might do are only a part of my salvation.  It is my faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the Resurection that offers me salvation.

I hope you find what you are searching for, I hope it is Faith in our Lord, not just a understanding of Bible Text.

There are people here that will say that understanding is paramount to salvation.  That is their Faith and it is legitimate, but my Faith is in doing good works, professing my Faith and doing my best to follow the words of God and Jesus as I understand them.

If it is our common endeavor to serve the Lord and recieve salvation, then I beleive different Paths can get us there.


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## 5282jt (Sep 17, 2007)

*Yes, you posted one of your sentences in #6*

*So, if you don't like my thread, why can't you leave it alone? Do all threads HAVE TO be approved by you?*


rangerdave said:


> I thought I stated my feelings about your project in pretty plain words in post # 6.


----------



## 5282jt (Sep 17, 2007)

*I'n not trying to elicit an argument*

*I have stated many times that I agree in part, or totally, with others posts in this thread. I'm new here, but the name of the forum is "Spiritual Discussions, Debate and Study " I belive my thread is involving all 3 of those stated purposes?
Your stated reasons for considering yourself a Christian are reasonable.
I have found what I was searching for and what the bible says to search for,  and I spent a great deal of earnest effort in my search. I did find that an understanding of the bible was essential to build a true and solid faith in Jesus and his Father and his father's holy spirit. 
Passage John 17:3:
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. To really "KNOW" Jesus and his father, a study of God's word, which teaches all about them, is essential. Otherwise, a faith can only be built on what you have been told and in most cases, will rest on what religion you happened to be born into, which could have been anything from Catholic to Muslim! Per chance? That's not seeking God, it's accepting anything as the truth. I just started out and continue to, switch play time - watching sports and other TV shows etc for time reading small portions of God's word every day and doing research [mainly comparing other portions of the bible-they must all be in agreement]  as needed to get the meaning. I also read the bible to fall asleep at night-not study--just read, at night.

*


squarepeg said:


> It is a good thing that you feel you make perfect sense.
> But I feel you are trying to elicit an argument in order to justify your position.
> 
> I consider myself a Christian because I have been Baptized and born again, I believe that Christ died for my redemption and rose again to go home to the Lord.
> ...


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## PWalls (Sep 17, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *Are you saying that only people who claim to be of the "BORN AGAIN" persuasion are true Christians and the rest are what Jesus spoke of at Mathew 7:21 ???
> If you do feel that way, I disagree, BUT!! That is the way everyone should feel- like they are involved in the only true religion on Earth! All the demoninations referring to themselves as Christian, teach different doctrines- there is only truthful teachings and false teachings. The bible makes that very clear. It does not teach, nor do I believe, that all religions [or so called Christian denominations] are different paths leading to God. I do not believe in interfaith. I do believe in live and let live, so I certainly would not agree with bashing a religion. I'll bash a false teaching though! Bota bing bota boom! *



Yes. Unless a person trusts completely in the finished work of Jesus Christ and trusts Him for their Salvation at which point the old man dies and they are "born-again" with the new man, then that person is not a Christian. There are many people who "think" they are Christian but have never fully put their faith in Jesus. Those are the people whom Jesus will tell that He never knew.


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## 5282jt (Sep 17, 2007)

*I would have to agree with you completely!*

*I have never cared for the extreme emphasis placed by some on being "BORN AGAIN CHRISTIONS" but, I see nothing in your current post that is unscriptural.*


PWalls said:


> Yes. Unless a person trusts completely in the finished work of Jesus Christ and trusts Him for their Salvation at which point the old man dies and they are "born-again" with the new man, then that person is not a Christian. There are many people who "think" they are Christian but have never fully put their faith in Jesus. Those are the people whom Jesus will tell that He never knew.


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## PWalls (Sep 17, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *I have never cared for the extreme emphasis placed by some on being "BORN AGAIN CHRISTIONS" but, I see nothing in your current post that is unscriptural.*



Which is why I answered way back on page 1 that in your original post, Jesus was not talking to Christians as you indicated in those verses. He was talking to people who may think they are Christians (deceiving themselves) or others who think their works are good (trying to do good works to get to Heaven).


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## 5282jt (Sep 17, 2007)

*I don't believe my wording indicated Christians at all?*

*I said very specifically "professes to be Christian" and "Would be Christians" People who call Jesus Lord.
Big difference! Of course he was not talking to true Christians who follow his example. That's why the title of my subject said "WHO IS A CHRISTIAN AND WHO IS NOT"
That's what the topic is all about. Again, my question was 'What main activity did Jesus and his Apostles leave as an example for true Christians to follow? Noone has touched that thought yet.  Because almost noone is willing to do that hard work they did!*


PWalls said:


> Which is why I answered way back on page 1 that in your original post, Jesus was not talking to Christians as you indicated in those verses. He was talking to people who may think they are Christians (deceiving themselves) or others who think their works are good (trying to do good works to get to Heaven).


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## PWalls (Sep 17, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *I said very specifically "professes to be Christian" and "Would be Christians" People who call Jesus Lord.
> Big difference! Of course he was not talking to true Christians who follow his example. That's why the title of my subject said "WHO IS A CHRISTIAN AND WHO IS NOT"*



Then we agree. I don't know why it took 3 pages. The original post was very misleading and has been edited, but I got the distinct impression that you meant Jesus was talking to "Christians".

Comment for you: Your post I just quoted said "Of course he was not talking to true Christians who follow his example". I think you should leave the "who follow his example" off of that. There is not a single Christian alive who can follow Jesus' perfect example. We will all fall short. We can try and do the works that He gave as an example and try to live like Him, but we will fail.


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## 5282jt (Sep 17, 2007)

*I can understand that you would like me to leave that off*

*However, that is what being a Christian is all about, making every effort to follow Jesus footsteps!

Passage 1 Peter 2:21:
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: I don't believe that any Christian who does his very best to follow Christs example, will be considered as a failure by him. He knows we are imperfect and dust, so he would not expect perfection, just a whole souled effort! That's what I try to do. I fail daily, but keep on trying my hardest and praying to God for help, in Jesus name!
*


PWalls said:


> Then we agree. I don't know why it took 3 pages. The original post was very misleading and has been edited, but I got the distinct impression that you meant Jesus was talking to "Christians".
> 
> Comment for you: Your post I just quoted said "Of course he was not talking to true Christians who follow his example". I think you should leave the "who follow his example" off of that. There is not a single Christian alive who can follow Jesus' perfect example. We will all fall short. We can try and do the works that He gave as an example and try to live like Him, but we will fail.


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## 5282jt (Sep 17, 2007)

*What part of the original post is misleading?*

*"VERY MISLEADING" ???
I only edited misspelling and sentence structure. I wanted people to reply and learn what they thought, why would I want to mislead? That would defeat my purpose in posting?*


PWalls said:


> Then we agree. I don't know why it took 3 pages. The original post was very misleading and has been edited, but I got the distinct impression that you meant Jesus was talking to "Christians".
> 
> Comment for you: Your post I just quoted said "Of course he was not talking to true Christians who follow his example". I think you should leave the "who follow his example" off of that. There is not a single Christian alive who can follow Jesus' perfect example. We will all fall short. We can try and do the works that He gave as an example and try to live like Him, but we will fail.


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## PWalls (Sep 17, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *"VERY MISLEADING" ???
> I only edited misspelling and sentence structure. I wanted people to reply and learn what they thought, why would I want to mislead? That would defeat my purpose in posting?*



There was a whole lot of that first page by a bunch of people saying it was misleading.

Maybe the fault was my own. I apologize.


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## PWalls (Sep 17, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *However, that is what being a Christian is all about, making every effort to follow Jesus footsteps!
> 
> Passage 1 Peter 2:21:
> For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: I don't believe that any Christian who does his very best to follow Christs example, will be considered as a failure by him. He knows we are imperfect and dust, so he would not expect perfection, just a whole souled effort! That's what I try to do. I fail daily, but keep on trying my hardest and praying to God for help, in Jesus name!
> *



All I am saying is that a Christian who does not have the "works" to show for his faith will still get into Heaven. Jesus will be disappointed and their rewards will be few, but He will not say that He never knew them.


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## Spotlite (Sep 17, 2007)

5282jt said:


> Main scripture for this thought is (KJV) Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:'
> So, 1st off, this scripture leaves no doubt, that it is referring ONLY to those who belong to a church that professes to be Christian, because they are calling  Jesus Lord.
> 
> Jesus says he doesn't even know them.
> ...



I would say 90% or better when arrested for murder, child molestation or even worse claim to be a christian.

False prophets, many people do things in the lords name all day long. 
Jesus dont know them cause they are not seeking his will.
That will answer your last question as well.


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## Paymaster (Sep 17, 2007)

If you have been Born Again, He knows you.


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## 5282jt (Sep 17, 2007)

*James was inspired by God to say differently*

*What scripture says that? James 2:24, 25 say differently.**New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Passage James 2:24:

   24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 
If you read 25, you will see the context is correct.

*


PWalls said:


> All I am saying is that a Christian who does not have the "works" to show for his faith will still get into Heaven. Jesus will be disappointed and their rewards will be few, but He will not say that He never knew them.


----------



## PWalls (Sep 17, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *What scripture says that? James 2:24, 25 say differently.**New American Standard Bible (NASB)
> 
> Passage James 2:24:
> 
> ...




Now we are getting somewhere. See, it helps to know someone's personal beliefs prior to digging into stuff like you posted.

I believe in eternal security and salvation. Once saved, always saved in other words (although I believe that it should really be If saved, Always saved).

I take it from your post that you believe that you have to have the faith and works to get to Heaven.

Works are an evidence of our faith. They are not required along with out faith to get us to Heaven. The only thing that is required to get to Heaven is belief in Jesus Christ. We can not nor do we have to "add" to that with any works that we do.


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## 5282jt (Sep 17, 2007)

*I agree, lots of that sort! But also*

*There are lots of Professed - go to church on Sunday "professed christians" who are just going through the motions and sacrifice nothing more than an hour in church a week, some ministers too! That's not folloowing Jesus or his apostles example of christianity.*


Spotlite said:


> I would say 90% or better when arrested for murder, child molestation or even worse claim to be a christian.
> 
> False prophets, many people do things in the lords name all day long.
> Jesus dont know them cause they are not seeking his will.
> That will answer your last question as well.


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## farmasis (Sep 17, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *What scripture says that? James 2:24, 25 say differently.**New American Standard Bible (NASB)
> 
> Passage James 2:24:
> 
> ...



Romans 4:

 1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”* 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
       7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
      And whose sins are covered;
       8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”[c]
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.*


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## farmasis (Sep 17, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *What scripture says that? James 2:24, 25 say differently.**New American Standard Bible (NASB)
> 
> Passage James 2:24:
> 
> ...




The subject in that is YOU, not God.

Like I said before James is telling already saved Christians how to live that the world may see something different in them and bring others to Christ.

If it were the case, as you interpret, then how would you dismiss Romans 4?


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## redwards (Sep 17, 2007)

5282jt said:


> _{OOPS! Bad start! misspelled Who in the subject! Should read "Who is a Christian and who is not a Christian?"}_
> 
> Main scripture for this thought is (KJV) Matthew 7:21-23
> Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:'
> ...


I'll begin my response by making this statement.
It makes no difference to me whether you have a triple doctorate or only an eigth grade education. It only matters to me whether you have received Jesus into your life or not.

I understand that you see the verses of Matt 7:21-23 as full context, and I know that vv. 15-20 are not shown in context with vv. 21-23. However, you should be aware that vv. 21-23 are part of the entire context of vv. 21-29. I think if you check any Bible version you will almost certainly find this to be the case. But to me that is really beside the point.

However, if you look at the setting for the verses you have set forth for discussion, you should be able to see that these words of Jesus are but a small part of His 'Sermon on the Mount' (Matt 5:1 - Matt 7:27). For your convenience here is the link Sermon on the Mount .

Now, if you look at the His entire sermon, you should see that in Ch. 5 v. 1 it is stated directly to whom Jesus is speaking (i.e. His disciples/followers). You should also be able to see that Ch. 7 vv. 13-23 constitute the context of the subtopic "Entering the Kingdom" (You should know that the version of the Bible which I have linked to is the Holman Christian Standard Bible). 
Therefore, it is my belief that in your verses for discussion (Matt 7:21-23), Jesus is addressing (to His disciples/followers) what will be the final destination for those who falsely claim to be His followers (i.e., false Christians). My reason for believing this is that in vv. 15 and following, He describes how false prophets can be recognized.

Now to your questions...


> Q#1 Yet Jesus says he doesn't even know them. Why?
> Ans: Because they (false prophets) have proclaimed His name in deed (works) only.





> Q#2 Did Jesus say to Build hospitals & colleges, have sport teams, force christianity on Muslims, fight wars and kill for your country?
> Ans: No, not that I am aware of.





> Q#3 Did he himself or his apostles get involved with any such things, so that we would follow the example?
> Ans: If you are speaking of things mentioned in your Q#2....No, not that I am aware of.





> Q#4 What then, would a person do to be a true "follower" of Jesus?
> Ans:There is not anything that anyone can 'do' to be saved.
> It is only because of God's mercy and through His grace that we can be saved.
> Titus 3:5; John 3:3; John 3:7; 1 Peter 1:23; Eph 2:8





> Q#5 When you read the christian greek scriptures, what does Jesus do, that we are able to follow?
> Ans: Love others..... 1 John 2:3-10





> Q#6 So, of what Jesus was best known for, what's left?
> Ans: Love others, as He has loved us....He is sufficient!!! Praise God!!!!





> Q#7 Subject: Who is a Christian and who is not a Christian? Based on Matthew 7:21-23
> Who is a Christian...Matt 7:21
> *<SUP>21</SUP>*"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, _*but [only] the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.*_
> Ans: Shown in bold italics....with emphasis on 'the will'...the will of whom...the will of My Father in heaven.
> ...


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## crackerdave (Sep 17, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *So, if you don't like my thread, why can't you leave it alone? Do all threads HAVE TO be approved by you?*



No,all threads DON'T have to be approved by me,but I have just as much right to my 2 cents' worth as you or anybody else.
 It's not your thread I don't like - it's you! You joined this forum 2 weeks ago and you come in here right off the bat trying to make insane judgements about who is or isn't a Christian.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 17, 2007)

Yes, you need a few more weeks to post insane ideas. However, I like both of you, although ranger Dave is less likeable, you have to love him most if you are a christian.

 I can say insane stuff like this, because I've been here since Thimothy MacVey was a hero for some here. Long time ago, before 9/11 and folks here were advocating "really"takeing up arms against the federal gobment. Although you will not find any of it now in the data base, it was there before a server crashed soon after a specific law made the advocacy of violence against the feds a crime, a little after 9/11 and a curtain Mr. Ashcroft who is a "real" christian I am told.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 17, 2007)

True some of the best dangerous game hunters are muslim.

All jesting aside, I think that 5282jt is serious with his questions and does not what to troll. His questioning seems very "human being" to me...


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## jimbo4116 (Sep 17, 2007)

Having read most of the posts in this thread, I can see that everyone feels that they are a Christian.  This is a good thing, but you do not have to prove your Christianity and Faith to anyone on this forum.  If you are secure in your faith, then leave it in the hands of God.  Be thankful that so many are seeking the salvation offered by Jesus Christ. You must bring others to Christ by leading, not pushing.


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## 5282jt (Sep 17, 2007)

*The scriptures are never in disagreement*

*So, both your scritures and mine are true-I have no doubt!
Faith comes 1st, without it, no sincere person would do works, faith is the reason for works and we can not work ourselves into salvation-in that it can't be bought by works.
However, Abraham had faith first and the was prepared to do an enourmously had work as well. If he had faith, but said "NO I WON'T SACRIFICE MY SON" would he still have been in God's approval?
It was the 2 things in combination, that made Abraham the kind of man that God considered his friend!*


farmasis said:


> Romans 4:
> 
> 1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”* 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
> 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
> ...


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## 5282jt (Sep 17, 2007)

*Well thank you Gordon! *

*Yes, I am seriously attempting to get people thinking and talking about "THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN ALL OUR LIVES"
weather we will be accepted by Jesus when we die or dismissed into destruction, and weather we will remain alive when Armegeddon comes or be destroyed?
Stuff worth contemplating!
It's either show God you really care enough to examine what you already believe to be true [in many cases, because you were born a Catholic or Baptist etc] or just be satisfied with whatever you already believe and assume God will just have to accept that as good enough!
Thanks again for stickin' up for me! *


gordon 2 said:


> True some of the best dangerous game hunters are muslim.
> 
> All jesting aside, I think that 5282jt is serious with his questions and does not what to troll. His questioning seems very "human being" to me...


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## 5282jt (Sep 17, 2007)

*Yes, everyone feels they are Christian and all other religions "FEEL" they are right*

*The trouble is, going by how you feel, does not please God.
We are supposed to test ourselves and our beliefs-
"New International Version (NIV)
Passage 2 Corinthians 13:5:
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

" I;m not pushing anyone into anything, other than thought and self scrutiny.
No, you do not have to prove your Christianity and Faith to anyone on this forum, but why come here if you are not interested in discussing your faith?
That's what this forum is for! 
Jesus was not wishy washy, nor did he ok every form of worship as being just fine. He was to the point about what was acceptable and what was not.
*


jimbo4116 said:


> Having read most of the posts in this thread, I can see that everyone feels that they are a Christian.  This is a good thing, but you do not have to prove your Christianity and Faith to anyone on this forum.  If you are secure in your faith, then leave it in the hands of God.  Be thankful that so many are seeking the salvation offered by Jesus Christ. You must bring others to Christ by leading, not pushing.


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## pfharris1965 (Sep 17, 2007)

*....*



5282jt said:


> I' m not pushing anyone into anything, other than thought and self scrutiny.


 
Ding! Ding! Ding!  If only more folks would take this approach instead of the typical "force feed" method the discussions would be at a much higher level of intellect.



5282jt said:


> No, you do not have to prove your Christianity and Faith to anyone on this forum, but why come here if you are not interested in discussing your faith? That's what this forum is for!


 
  Can I get a big ole AMEN on that one...



5282jt said:


> Jesus was not wishy washy, nor did he ok every form of worship as being just fine. He was to the point about what was acceptable and what was not.


 
Yes and he had a very broad brush and he painted a picture that is open to interpretations of the hearts that he moves...afterall the spirit moves many folks in many different directions thus no human is even remotely qualified to judge or say what is right or wrong for another human being...although we have seen some TV preachers that would love for you to believe that they have the hotline phone number straight to God...


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## 5282jt (Sep 17, 2007)

*Thanks for the first 2 thumbs ups! *

*As to your last point, I know people "feel" that the spirit is moving them in a multitude of different directions, but I don't think Jesus left a wide open path to a variety of beliefs. That's why he said there was a narrow road to eternal life and a broad road to destruction. In fact, he was so specific in what was and was not acceptable, he even said it was a sin to look at a woman so as to have a passion for her and that if you did, you had already committed adultery with her in your heart. Nothing broad about his teachings-IN MY OPINION.*


WPH44 said:


> Ding! Ding! Ding!  If only more folks would take this approach instead of the typical "force feed" method the discussions would be at a much higher level of intellect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gordon 2 (Sep 17, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *Yes, I am seriously attempting to get people thinking and talking about "THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN ALL OUR LIVES"
> weather we will be accepted by Jesus when we die or dismissed into destruction, and weather we will remain alive when Armegeddon comes or be destroyed?
> Stuff worth contemplating!
> It's either show God you really care enough to examine what you already believe to be true [in many cases, because you were born a Catholic or Baptist etc] or just be satisfied with whatever you already believe and assume God will just have to accept that as good enough!
> Thanks again for stickin' up for me! *



Cool, but you should realize that lots of folks here have done this, "considered their relationship with the Lord" Most of the participants here are mature in their faith and know they are personally responsible for their spiritual lives.

Like Father Tom said, his NIV says even the "dogs" are going to heaven. If we read the beatitudes in Matt. we must conclude our doubtless Thomas is right.  In the case of the religious or the "church" folk this passage comes to mind. Matt 5/6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. This includes all who seek a relationship with the Lord, even the most humourless church pilars you'll ever meet. LOL.

Their is a place for the young and the new to the faith to preach to those who's faith is longstanding. After all, longstanding sometimes means longstanding rust. However, again, it must be done with caution and respect for all. It comes to mind that in the story of Job, after he and all his friends failed to explain why Job was so plagued, it is a young man's wisdom who preceeds God's answer to Job. The young man's reasonings are indeed what was closest to God's reasonings.

Keep the faith. Love one another. Praise the Lord.


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## 5282jt (Sep 17, 2007)

*No doubt*

*But I still think that most of us are locked into our stiffed neck thinking, that what we already believe, is good enough. I felt that way for years, but don't now.
Now, I keep on the watch!  And test out my faith and my beliefs and scrutinize long standing "church" doctrines and traditions.
The Pharisees were set in their ways and satisfied with their beliefs, doctrines and traditions. Jesus had no respect for them.
I would like his approval. 
You are absolutely right with Job's ordeal.
A new voice can sometimes make some stand up, jump back and take notice! *


gordon 2 said:


> Cool, but you should realize that lots of folks here have done this, "considered their relationship with the Lord" Most of the participants here are mature in their faith and know they are personally responsible for their spiritual lives.
> 
> Like Father Tom said, his NIV says even the "dogs" are going to heaven. If we read the beatitudes in Matt. we must conclude our doubtless Thomas is right.  In the case of the religious or the "church" folk this passage comes to mind. Matt 5/6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. This includes all who seek a relationship with the Lord, even the most humourless church pilars you'll ever meet. LOL.
> 
> ...


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## furtaker (Sep 18, 2007)

Look exactly at what Matt. 7:21-22 says:  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
So, clearly from the text, it is only the ones that _do the will of the Father_ that will enter.  So, obviously, now we need to ask, "What is the will of the Father?"  That will tell us what a person has to do to enter the kingdom.
John 6:38-40 gives us the answer.  Jesus said, "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me..._And this is the will of him that sent me_, that every one which seeth the Son, and _believeth on him_, may have everlasting life:  and I will raise him up at the last day."
Could it be any clearer?  It is only the ones who believe in the Son who will make it.  They are the ones who did the will of the Father.  Remember, Matt. 7:22-23 says, "_Many_ will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?  and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you:  depart from me, ye that work iniquity."  These are obviously church-going, religious people.  They prophesied, cast out demons, and performed many wonderful works.  Perhaps they also walked down an aisle, shook a preacher's hand, got baptized, prayed, tried to turn from their sins, confessed their sins, and tried to follow and serve Jesus.  Yet they never had eternal life.
Most people do not realize that faith alone in Christ alone gives eternal life.  They do not believe that Jesus Christ alone is enough to secure their eternal destiny.  They think works are also involved to some degree to determine their final destiny.  Yet here is what Jesus Christ said:  "I am the Resurrection and the Life.  He who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and whoever lives and believes in Me will never die.  Do you believe this?" (Jn. 11:25-26).


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## gordon 2 (Sep 18, 2007)

Yes, yes, but to "believe" is it not to do? The affirmation of belief, is it not doing or acting in a curtain way? For if we do not do, we do not believe do we?

If we claim to believe in healthy living according to Dr.X and do not do, do we believe? If we claim to believe in peace, and peace making, by making war, do we believe?

We can believe that Jesus is Lord, that he was a super spiritual, but his teaching, which are according to the will of God, don't really apply in the here and now of our lives.  We can believe and not do? We can believe in the good news of the kingdom and not do, so do we really believe?


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## 5282jt (Sep 18, 2007)

*We are almost in complete agreement! *

*I agree with all you said, except the one last point. You said works are not involved. Works were necessary for Jesus himself= "John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, whilst it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. "
and the bible also clearly shows that works continued to be very much involved. "Acts 26:20 But to those first in Damascus, and Jerusalem, and to all the country of Judea, and to the nations, I made known the command to repent and to turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance " also 
(Rotherham) Romans 2:6 Who will render unto each one according to his works:--  

(ASV) Romans 2:6 who will render to every man according to his works: 

(Douay-Rheims) Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works. 


Now, I know we are not saved by works, but by faith and yet, works are needed. If you have faith that a train is headed at you, but do not do the work of getting off the track, you will not be saved. 
Why are so many people concerned that works are needed to please Jesus and his Father? Wouldn't logic dictate that if a person TRUELY has a strong faith in Jesus, that he would have works that showed that to be so??*


brentus said:


> Look exactly at what Matt. 7:21-22 says:  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
> So, clearly from the text, it is only the ones that _do the will of the Father_ that will enter.  So, obviously, now we need to ask, "What is the will of the Father?"  That will tell us what a person has to do to enter the kingdom.
> John 6:38-40 gives us the answer.  Jesus said, "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me..._And this is the will of him that sent me_, that every one which seeth the Son, and _believeth on him_, may have everlasting life:  and I will raise him up at the last day."
> Could it be any clearer?  It is only the ones who believe in the Son who will make it.  They are the ones who did the will of the Father.  Remember, Matt. 7:22-23 says, "_Many_ will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?  and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you:  depart from me, ye that work iniquity."  These are obviously church-going, religious people.  They prophesied, cast out demons, and performed many wonderful works.  Perhaps they also walked down an aisle, shook a preacher's hand, got baptized, prayed, tried to turn from their sins, confessed their sins, and tried to follow and serve Jesus.  Yet they never had eternal life.
> Most people do not realize that faith alone in Christ alone gives eternal life.  They do not believe that Jesus Christ alone is enough to secure their eternal destiny.  They think works are also involved to some degree to determine their final destiny.  Yet here is what Jesus Christ said:  "I am the Resurrection and the Life.  He who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and whoever lives and believes in Me will never die.  Do you believe this?" (Jn. 11:25-26).


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## 5282jt (Sep 18, 2007)

*Bingo!!!*

*THE TRUTH!*


gordon 2 said:


> Yes, yes, but to "believe" is it not to do? The affirmation of belief, is it not doing or acting in a curtain way? For if we do not do, we do not believe do we?
> 
> If we believe in healthy living according to Dr.X and do not do, do we believe?


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## PWalls (Sep 19, 2007)

Works are an evidence of our faith. That is a fact. However, works are not required to get to Heaven. 

A strong, mature Christian will evidence good works. An immature Christian will not show as much good works.

The point is though, just because a Christian may not be doing loads of good works, doesn't make them a Christian.


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## 5282jt (Sep 30, 2007)

*Answer and then i'm starting a new topic*

*That sounds reasonable. As to your last sentence? I maintain, if you have no works, you have a dead faith as the bible says. If you think you can buy your way in with works, the bible is clear that you need faith. It's a normal combination, that's needed.*


PWalls said:


> Works are an evidence of our faith. That is a fact. However, works are not required to get to Heaven.
> 
> A strong, mature Christian will evidence good works. An immature Christian will not show as much good works.
> 
> The point is though, just because a Christian may not be doing loads of good works, doesn't make them a Christian.


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## PWalls (Sep 30, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *That sounds reasonable. As to your last sentence? I maintain, if yopu have no works, you have a dead faith as the bible says. If you thinbk you can buy your way in with works, the bible is clear that you need faith. It's a normal combination, that's needed.*



We all go through various periods of highs and lows in our Christian walk. There are mountains and there are valleys. If a Christian is having a real hard time in their life, if their in the middle of a particularly hard test from the Lord and their is little evidence of works, then that doesn't mean they have a dead faith. And, just because you don't see that Billy Graham works in someone's life doesn't mean they have a "dead" faith. I just think there is going to be times in a Christian's walk where the works aren't plentiful or plainly evident. That doesn't mean they are not Christians or not going to get to Heaven.


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## 5282jt (Sep 30, 2007)

*That's pretty much true*

*A person does have spiritually stronger and weaker times and logically would have more works at those stronger times. Still, God expects whole souled effort, according to your ability at the time.
(NKJV) Mark 12:30 'And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This [is] the first commandment.[/B]





PWalls said:



			We all go through various periods of highs and lows in our Christian walk. There are mountains and there are valleys. If a Christian is having a real hard time in their life, if their in the middle of a particularly hard test from the Lord and their is little evidence of works, then that doesn't mean they have a dead faith. And, just because you don't see that Billy Graham works in someone's life doesn't mean they have a "dead" faith. I just think there is going to be times in a Christian's walk where the works aren't plentiful or plainly evident. That doesn't mean they are not Christians or not going to get to Heaven.
		
Click to expand...

*


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## GA1dad (Sep 30, 2007)

Well, your topic caught my eye because I knew that the subject would stir things up. But then I read your original post, and had no clue where you were going with it. Then I sat here and read all 108 replies. And I still have no clue what you hoped to get out of it, except disturbance.

RangerDave has stated that you were only here to stir up trouble. I'm not sure he's wrong. But one thing I'm sure of after reading it all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, You've got a serious "Holier Than Thou" complex.


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## 5282jt (Oct 1, 2007)

*You have a right to your opinion*

*You didn't say where in my posts you found me just stirring up trouble? I thought this was a "Discussion, debate,study forum"?? Discussion and debate will almost always make some of the more insecure people feel that others are trying to stir up trouble with them. Those same people [such as you and Ranger Dave] have absolutely nothing to say in the discussion, just a quick complaint.
As to your saying I have a "holier than thou" complex. Well, it's you stepping aside from the impersonal scriptural, discussion, to say personal things to me to straighten me out, so maybe-as is usually the case with those who make these things personal, you are the one with that complex? I can only begin to imagine the trouble guys like you and Dave would have given Jesus. He most certainly did stir up trouble and those people tried to correct his thinking. When he wouldn't listen, they had him killed.
Your frame of mind is well spoken in your signature 'You could change the world alone, with a gun'
Again, this is a discussion board, if you have something to add to the discussion, as many have had, please do so. If not, can't you just read a different topic? You said you have no clue what this topic is about, it is this---
Subject: Who is a Christian and who is not a Christian? Based on Matthew 7:21-23* Do you have anything to add to the discussion?





GA1dad said:


> Well, your topic caught my eye because I knew that the subject would stir things up. But then I read your original post, and had no clue where you were going with it. Then I sat here and read all 108 replies. And I still have no clue what you hoped to get out of it, except disturbance.
> 
> RangerDave has stated that you were only here to stir up trouble. I'm not sure he's wrong. But one thing I'm sure of after reading it all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, You've got a serious "Holier Than Thou" complex.


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## 5282jt (Oct 1, 2007)

*I largely agree*

*I agree, it is doing the will of Jesus' father that is required. One of those things you quoted at John 6:38-40    Here are a few of the ones you didn't quote, that show the importants of works-

DOER OF WORK-
“Become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning. For if anyone is a hearer of the word, and not a doer, this one is like a man looking at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself, and off he goes and immediately forgets what sort of man he is. But he who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom and who persists in it, this man, because he has become, not just a hearer, but a doer of the work, will be happy in his doing it.”—James 1:22-25.


EXERTION=WORK-
(Luke 13:24) “Exert yourselves to get in through the narrow gate'  

BEAR FRUIT BY DOING WORK-
(Colossians 1:10) In order to walk worthily of God to the end of fully pleasing as YOU go on bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God,  

EXERSIZING FAITH & DOING WORKS-
(John 14:12) Most truly I say unto YOU, He that exercises faith unto me, that one also will do the works that I do; and he will do works greater than these, because I am going my way to my Father.  

KEEP BEARING FRUIT & PROVE YOURSELF REQUIRES WORK-
(John 15:8) My Father is glorified in this, that YOU keep bearing much fruit and prove yourselves my disciples.  

SPEAKING PUBLICLY OF WHAT YOU HAVE LEARNED FROM GOD IS A WORK- In fact, the most common work Jesus and his disciples did!
 “With the heart one exercises faith for righteousness,” wrote Paul, “but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.” (Romans 10:10) 

A WORKMAN-
(2 Timothy 2:15-17) Do your utmost to present yourself approved to God, a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of the truth aright. 16But shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, 17and their word will spread like gangrene. 

I believe "some" of that empty speech, that truely has spread like gangrene, is the false belief that certain religious groups have embeded in people's minds, that nothing is needed to do God's will, other than "believing in Jesus" - period!
If you belive a train is coming, but don't do the works required to get off the track, you will not be saved!*
Lastly, you said "Yet here is what Jesus Christ said: "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and whoever lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" (Jn. 11:25-26)."
Of course, if someone REALLY believes in Jesus, they would do the above mentioned, scriptural works and be like the man on the train tracks who took action to prove he believed! If you say you belive, but have no works to show for it, you are fooling yourself, you really don't believe. [Not you personally, I mean in general]



brentus said:


> Look exactly at what Matt. 7:21-22 says:  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
> So, clearly from the text, it is only the ones that _do the will of the Father_ that will enter.  So, obviously, now we need to ask, "What is the will of the Father?"  That will tell us what a person has to do to enter the kingdom.
> John 6:38-40 gives us the answer.  Jesus said, "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me..._And this is the will of him that sent me_, that every one which seeth the Son, and _believeth on him_, may have everlasting life:  and I will raise him up at the last day."
> Could it be any clearer?  It is only the ones who believe in the Son who will make it.  They are the ones who did the will of the Father.  Remember, Matt. 7:22-23 says, "_Many_ will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?  and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you:  depart from me, ye that work iniquity."  These are obviously church-going, religious people.  They prophesied, cast out demons, and performed many wonderful works.  Perhaps they also walked down an aisle, shook a preacher's hand, got baptized, prayed, tried to turn from their sins, confessed their sins, and tried to follow and serve Jesus.  Yet they never had eternal life.
> Most people do not realize that faith alone in Christ alone gives eternal life.  They do not believe that Jesus Christ alone is enough to secure their eternal destiny.  They think works are also involved to some degree to determine their final destiny.  Yet here is what Jesus Christ said:  "I am the Resurrection and the Life.  He who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and whoever lives and believes in Me will never die.  Do you believe this?" (Jn. 11:25-26).


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## p8riot (Oct 1, 2007)

Works are a manifestation of your faith and obedience to God. It is this faith that merits the grace necessary to enter heaven. Unfortunately the works of many are motivated not by faith but by greed, pride, selfishness, etc. These are the ones who know not Christ.

To answer 5282jt's question- "What then, would a person do to be a true "follower" of Jesus?

Jesus said: John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments." The next question is then "what are His commandments?" Christ also said the greatest commandment is to "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 
This is the first and great commandment. 
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Matt 22:37-39)

Thus we love God by loving and serving others. Of course there are many other commandments to follow also.


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## 5282jt (Oct 2, 2007)

*I agree*

*I listed just a few of the works [or commandments] necessary. As you said, there are many others as well. A far cry from someone simply saying "I have faith in Jesus and so i'm saved"*


p8riot said:


> Works are a manifestation of your faith and obedience to God. It is this faith that merits the grace necessary to enter heaven. Unfortunately the works of many are motivated not by faith but by greed, pride, selfishness, etc. These are the ones who know not Christ.
> 
> To answer 5282jt's question- "What then, would a person do to be a true "follower" of Jesus?
> 
> ...


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## dawg2 (Oct 2, 2007)

5282jt said:


> *You are the 1st to attempt to actually answer the question posed.
> In reply to {{I don't agree. No where in that scripture you provided does it indicate that Jesus is talking about "Christians" only.}}, i'd say that the scripture appears very clearly to be speaking only to those professing to be Christians. Who else does works in Jesus name, calls him Lord, etc? The demons shudder at the thought of Jesus, but they don't call him Lord nor would they speak the words in the scripture.
> Thank you for your honest thoughts!!!*



Basically what I always thought about this verse is that it applies to what I call the "church lady Syndrome."  Just because you jump up on a stump and tell everyone how holy you are and how much you love God/Jesus and go to church every time the doors unlocked DOES NOT MAKE YOU HOLY.  It has to be sincere.

ANYONE can go to church, ANYONE can ACT like they are "saved" etc., but you have to really be that way.  If you have to tell Jesus what you did on earth, than you did not do anything.


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## 5282jt (Oct 2, 2007)

*Agreed!*

*I too think it refers to the "church lady Syndrome." people. However, it encompasses many more than just the dress up for church, social people.
It includes all those who ignore most of Jesus and God's commands and just say "I believe in Jesus, so i'm saved" Those people are looking for the easy way out [or in ] Paul made it clear, that even for him this was no easy task [incidently, this also disproves "once saved always saved" =

New International Version (NIV)

Passage 1 Corinthians 9:27:
27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.


New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Passage 1 Corinthians 9:27:

   27but I discipline (A)my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. 


Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition. (DRA)

Passage 1 Corinthians 9:27:
27But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.


New Living Translation (NLT)

Passage 1 Corinthians 9:27:
27 I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified.

*


dawg2 said:


> Basically what I always thought about this verse is that it applies to what I call the "church lady Syndrome."  Just because you jump up on a stump and tell everyone how holy you are and how much you love God/Jesus and go to church every time the doors unlocked DOES NOT MAKE YOU HOLY.  It has to be sincere.
> 
> ANYONE can go to church, ANYONE can ACT like they are "saved" etc., but you have to really be that way.  If you have to tell Jesus what you did on earth, than you did not do anything.


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## dawg2 (Oct 2, 2007)

I honestly believe you can not focus on only a few select readings.  If that were the case, He would not have given us a BOOK.


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## 5282jt (Oct 2, 2007)

*I certainly agree with that!*

*You can not just pick out a scripture here and there and forget the rest. Which is my point. Those who say that they are saved, if they believe in Jesus, are being very selective! There are so many scriptures that show more is necessary! If you read the whole thread, you probably saw that I quoted more scriptures than anyone else did. Many used just one scripture to back their point. I used a number of scriptures and can supply a dozen more in short order.  on anything "I believe".
Eternal life is the most important thing in my future, I don't settle for any simple, one scripture answers for what I have come to believe.
 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Passage 2 Corinthians 13:5:


   5(A)Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; (B)examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you (C)fail the test? 


New American Standard Bible (NASB)  


Passage 2 Corinthians 13:5:
5 Try your own selves if you be in the faith; prove ye yourselves. Know you not your own selves, that Christ Jesus is in you, unless perhaps you be reprobates?


New Living Translation (NLT)

Passage 2 Corinthians 13:5:


   5 Examine yourselves to see if your faith is genuine. Test yourselves. Surely you know that Jesus Christ is among you[a]; if not, you have failed the test of genuine faith. 


Again, the once saved always saved idea, is not scriptural at all, to be saved, you must endure to the end!!!-
(NKJV) Mark 13:13 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. *


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## Drake1807 (Oct 5, 2007)

PWalls you could not have said it better.


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## big buck blaster (Oct 5, 2007)

Eternal Life Is A Gift. It Can Not Be Earned. You Recive This Gift By Beliving That Jesus Christ Died For You And All Mankind To Save Us From Our Sins.beliving ,and Professing This Alone Is The Only Way To Heaven.


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## 5282jt (Oct 5, 2007)

Well, I guess if you ignore all the other sciptures in the bible, you could come to that conclusion. It certainly is the most popular here! It's the easy way out! 
It is a free gift to all those deserving of it. To be deserving, you have to obey all the scriptures, not just fall back on 1.


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## PWalls (Oct 5, 2007)

5282jt said:


> Well, I guess if you ignore all the other sciptures in the bible, you could come to that conclusion. It certainly is the most popular here! It's the easy way out!
> It is a free gift to all those deserving of it. To be deserving, you have to obey all the scriptures, not just fall back on 1.



So, are we now back to a works-based Salvation?


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## WildmanSC (Oct 5, 2007)

Ephesians 2:8-9  For by grace through faith are ye saved and that not of your own it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

You cannot do a good work to be saved, AND you cannot do a good work to stay saved.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

This should be understood as confessing "Jesus as Lord," with all that such a confession implies. The Greek word, kurios, was applied in the Roman world to the emperor, but in the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament it was applied to God. Thus confessing Jesus as Lord meant both renouncing emperor worship and acknowledging Jesus as God. Furthermore, one does not come to Jesus with reservations as to what one will do or believe. Jesus must be accepted as God, and as Lord of life; one must confess that he will believe and obey His Word unreservedly, in particular, believing in the bodily resurrection, which implies belief also in creation, for only the Creator of life could defeat sin and death.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

There can be no such thing as a secret Christian, for verbal confession of Jesus as Lord is prerequisite to receiving eternal salvation, after receiving His imputed righteousness by faith.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

See notes on Acts 2:21, where the same verse is quoted (Joel 2:32). Paul had been stressing God's electing sovereignty in chapter 9; here he again stresses human responsibility. Both are true.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The vital doctrine of regeneration, or the new birth, has been applicable in all ages, for man by nature is a lost sinner and must be spiritually reborn through faith in God and His promises if he is to be saved. Note, for example, such Old Testament Scriptures as Isaiah 1:18; Psalm 51:10; Ezekiel 18:31. Nevertheless, this vital doctrine is crystallized, clarified and individualized more in the New Testament, especially in this chapter (see also 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15; Colossians 3:10; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23; and other New Testament verses on the new birth).

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

"Water and the Spirit" here has the connotation of "water, even the Spirit." The death and rebirth illustrated by John's baptism, in which Nicodemus and his colleagues on the council had been so interested (John 1:25), was merely symbolic of rebirth in the Spirit. Some expositors have equated the "water" here with the Word and others have taken it to mean the water in a mother's womb, but the context surely refers to baptism, and that is certainly what Nicodemus would have understood it to mean. The essential conclusion of Christ's reply was that regeneration by the Holy Spirit was prerequisite to entering the kingdom of God. Paul used the same baptismal figure of the new life in Romans 6:4, and he called it "the washing of regeneration" in Titus 3:5.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 

Jesus calls Himself "Son of man" in John 3:13,14, and "Son of God" in John 3:16-18. As Son of man, He is the "heir" of God's promises to man (Hebrews 1:2), man as God had intended man to be, the perfect man. As Son of God, He is the unique, beloved, only begotten, eternally begotten, Son of the Father, "very God."

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The sealing ministry of the Spirit, serving as an assurance (a down payment or earnest money) of our ultimate complete redemption when Christ comes again (Ephesians 1:14), is also mentioned in 2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 4:30. This sealing is evidenced experientially by His indwelling witness and guidance (Romans 8:16,23).

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The "sealed work" (Ephesians 1:13) of the Spirit is conclusive, and it cannot be "unsealed," even though we may "grieve" the Spirit by such sins as noted in these verses.

Salvation is experiential, salvation is eternal, salvation is enduring, salvation is entirely of God (it is His Grace and His gift of Faith by which we are saved.  Faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the Word of God.) and salvation is everlasting!  Praise God, Praise the Lord Jesus Christ, He is Worthy!

Bill


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## PWalls (Oct 5, 2007)

Excellent post WildmanSC.


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## 5282jt (Oct 5, 2007)

*WOW! I will try to reply  "in text" to what I understand. *

*Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace through faith are ye saved and that not of your own it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

You cannot do a good work to be saved, AND you cannot do a good work to stay saved.I agree 100% But, that does not nullify all the scriptures that show works are necessary. It still says to be saved, we must be faithful to the end too! Mathew 10:22

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

This should be understood as confessing "Jesus as Lord," with all that such a confession implies. Agreed 100%The Greek word, kurios, was applied in the Roman world to the emperor, but in the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament it was applied to God. Thus confessing Jesus as Lord meant both renouncing emperor worship and acknowledging Jesus as God.
I don't believe this is correct.
The Greek â€œKyriosâ€�  is an adjective, signifying the possessing of power (kyâ€²ros) or authority, and it is also used as a noun. It appears in almost every book of the Christian Greek Scriptures. The term corresponds to the Hebrew â€™A·dhohnâ€². As Godâ€™s created Son and Servant, Jesus Christ properly addresses his Father and God such as at: John 20:17) as â€œLordâ€� (â€™Adho·naiâ€² or Kyâ€²ri·os), the One having superior power and authority, his Head. (Mt 11:25; 1Co 11:3) As the one exalted to his Fatherâ€™s right hand, Jesus is â€œLord of lordsâ€� as respects all except his Father, God the Almighty.â€”Re 17:14; 19:15,16; compare 1Co 15:27,28.

Its use in place of the divine name. During the second or third century of the Common Era, the scribes substituted the words Kyâ€²ri·os (Lord) and The·osâ€² (God) for the divine name, Yahweh or Jehovah, in copies of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. 

 Furthermore, one does not come to Jesus with reservations as to what one will do or believe. No, you can not have reservations, including reservations about doing the works that Jesus did. The bible is clear that works are required-even though you can't buy everlasting life with them. As to what you will believe, the bible says "The truth will set you free"

Jesus must be accepted as God, and as Lord of life; one must confess that he will believe and obey His Word unreservedly, in particular, believing in the bodily resurrection, which implies belief also in creation, for only the Creator of life could defeat sin and death.
I don't agree with "Jesus must be accepted as God"
 He did not represent himself as God Almighty while on Earth nor after his assention to Heaven. I don't think I need to quote a scripture where Jesus said "I AM GOD'S SON" But that's who he said he was, God's son, noty God!
I think we all know those! 
After God Almighty resurrected Jesus back to Heaven, Jesus was still not God= Passage 1 Corinthians 15:24-29:
24  Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25  For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26  The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27  For he "has put everything under his feet."[a] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28  When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

There can be no such thing as a secret Christian, for verbal confession of Jesus as Lord is prerequisite to receiving eternal salvation, after receiving His imputed righteousness by faith.Agreed! 

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

See notes on Acts 2:21, where the same verse is quoted (Joel 2:32). Joel 2:32 is speaking of Almighty God's name-the Tetregrammaton=Yahweh or Jehovah. Thus the all capital letters for Lord {LORD} showing where the Tetregrammaton was. Nothing to do with Jesus.
New International Version (NIV)

Passage Joel 2:32:

    32 And everyone who calls 
       on the name of the LORD will be saved; 
       for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem 
       there will be deliverance, 
       as the LORD has said, 
       among the survivors 
       whom the LORD calls.



Paul had been stressing God's electing sovereignty in chapter 9; here he again stresses human responsibility. Both are true.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.Here is where confusion jumps in!  YES, to go to heaven, you must be reborn, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the spirit world of heaven.
However, there is room for another whole discussion, as to the idea that all "saved" persons go to heaven! Mathew 5:5=
New International Version (NIV)

Passage Matthew 5:5:

    5  Blessed are the meek, 
      for they will inherit the earth.


New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Passage Matthew 5:5:

   5  "Blessed are (A)the [a]gentle, for they shall inherit the earth. 

Footnotes:
Matthew 5:5 Or humble, meek 



Today's New International Version (TNIV)

Passage Matthew 5:5:
5  Blessed are the meek, 
       for they will inherit the earth. 



King James Version (KJV)

Passage Matthew 5:5:


   5  Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.


New Living Translation (NLT)

Passage Matthew 5:5:
5 God blesses those who are humble,
      for they will inherit the whole earth.


The vital doctrine of regeneration, or the new birth, has been applicable in all ages, for man by nature is a lost sinner and must be spiritually reborn through faith in God and His promises if he is to be saved. Note, for example, such Old Testament Scriptures as Isaiah 1:18; Psalm 51:10; Ezekiel 18:31. Nevertheless, this vital doctrine is crystallized, clarified and individualized more in the New Testament, especially in this chapter (see also 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15; Colossians 3:10; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23; and other New Testament verses on the new birth).

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

"Water and the Spirit" here has the connotation of "water, even the Spirit." The death and rebirth illustrated by John's baptism, in which Nicodemus and his colleagues on the council had been so interested (John 1:25), was merely symbolic of rebirth in the Spirit. Some expositors have equated the "water" here with the Word and others have taken it to mean the water in a mother's womb, but the context surely refers to baptism, and that is certainly what Nicodemus would have understood it to mean. The essential conclusion of Christ's reply was that regeneration by the Holy Spirit was prerequisite to entering the kingdom of God. Paul used the same baptismal figure of the new life in Romans 6:4, and he called it "the washing of regeneration" in Titus 3:5.Lost me on the above?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Great scripture! If a person believes, he takes action=does works!  Like getting off the tracks, when you "believe the train is coming" 

Jesus calls Himself "Son of man" in John 3:13,14, and "Son of God" in John 3:16-18. As Son of man, He is the "heir" of God's promises to man (Hebrews 1:2), man as God had intended man to be, the perfect man. As Son of God, He is the unique, beloved, only begotten, eternally begotten, Son of the Father, "very God."Agreed! Jesus himself is referred to as "a" God in fact. Unfortunately, so is Satan, simply because both are of devine origen. Jesus being God's 1st creation of all=

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition. (DRA)

Passage Colossians 1:15:
15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Passage Colossians 1:15:


   15  He is the (A)image of the (B)invisible God, the (C)firstborn of all creation. 


Wycliffe New Testament (WYC)

Passage Colossians 1:15:
15   Which is the image of God invisible, the first begotten of each creature. 


King James Version (KJV)

Passage Colossians 1:15:


   15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Passage Colossians 1:15:


   15  who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation, 



Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The sealing ministry of the Spirit, serving as an assurance (a down payment or earnest money) of our ultimate complete redemption when Christ comes again (Ephesians 1:14), is also mentioned in 2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 4:30. This sealing is evidenced experientially by His indwelling witness and guidance (Romans 8:16,23).

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The "sealed work" (Ephesians 1:13) of the Spirit is conclusive, and it cannot be "unsealed," even though we may "grieve" the Spirit by such sins as noted in these verses.

Salvation is experiential, salvation is eternal, salvation is enduring, salvation is entirely of God (it is His Grace and His gift of Faith by which we are saved. Faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the Word of God.) and salvation is everlasting! Praise God, Praise the Lord Jesus Christ, He is Worthy!Lost me on the above too.  I'm not all that bright, I get lost often! 

Bill*


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## 5282jt (Oct 5, 2007)

*Just back to what the bible clearly says*

*Just back to what the bible clearly says*


PWalls said:


> So, are we now back to a works-based Salvation?


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## crackerdave (Aug 13, 2008)

Here's one by a champion pot-stirrer who's no longer with us - at least not under "5282jt."


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