# The belief in the death penalty



## ddd-shooter (Jul 24, 2009)

Is it supported by scripture?


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## Israel (Jul 24, 2009)

Romans 6: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Yes, God did in Christ what needed to be done to sinful man.


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## christianhunter (Jul 24, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Is it supported by scripture?



Plenty in THE OLD Testament,never saw mention of it in THE NEW TESTAMENT.OT(Law),NT(Grace).
Someone more learned than myself,will have to answer this for you.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 24, 2009)

The Gospel of Christ doesn't deal with it at all (except, as Israel reminds us, Jesus received the death penalty from God Himself).
Maybe the answer is just that!  Because of the grace and mercy shown thru Christ maybe there should no longer be a death penalty.  Maybe the command to love our enemies removes that as an option for us Christians.
In many ways, I am pro-death penalty.  But then again, that doesn't sound like something that a Christian should support.

In other words, I don't know.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 24, 2009)

Wow, I thought there would be some firm opinions on this one. 

I, myself, am against it. 

Mathew 5:
 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 

   39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 

   44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 

   45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 

   46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 



And what do the atheists say on this issue??


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## Jeffriesw (Jul 24, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Wow, I thought there would be some firm opinions on this one.
> 
> I, myself, am against it.
> 
> ...







Do you extend this to all crime and punishment or just the Death Penalty?



Not a big fan of it myself, or should I say, how it is applied.
I do see the need and neccessity of it though...


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## PWalls (Jul 24, 2009)

Swamp Runner said:


> Not a big fan of it myself, or should I say, how it is applied.
> I do see the need and neccessity of it though...



Yep.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 24, 2009)

No, simply for the death penalty. I believe all people have the right to life and no one should deprive them of that right. Who am I to say who lives and dies? 

"I do see the need and neccessity of it though"...Why?


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## modern_yeoman (Jul 24, 2009)

Romans 13:1–7 (NIV)


13 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has ........




Genesis 9:6 (NIV)
6 “Whoever sheds the blood of man, 
by man shall his blood be shed; 
for in the image of God 
has God made man. 


Maybe Christians should not rejoyce over it, but understand it is necassary??


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 24, 2009)

modern_yeoman said:


> Romans 13:1–7 (NIV)
> 
> 
> 13 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has ........
> ...



Who says the authority has the right to claim a life? Just because an authority agrees with something, say, gay marriage, doesn't make it right for most christians, so why accept the death penalty?

Again, why is it necessary?


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 24, 2009)

Oh yeah, the classic example. John 8:

 3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 

   4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 

   5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 

   6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 

   7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 

   8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 

   9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 

   10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 

   11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


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## earl (Jul 25, 2009)

Neither christian or atheist so perhaps my opinion wont count but here goes.
 If you kill one of mine or molest one of mine ,I will volunteer to pull the switch. I can't think of other reasons for the death penalty.Reasons ? Revenge,anger ,grief, and preventing it from happening again would be enough for me.


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## tell sackett (Jul 25, 2009)

Ro.13:4 specifically gives gov't authority for capital punishment. We are commanded to obey the gov't unless they conflict with God's commands, and in that case if we disobey the gov't we should be prepared to accept punishment for it. My .02.


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## WTM45 (Jul 25, 2009)

earl said:


> Neither christian or atheist so perhaps my opinion wont count but here goes.
> If you kill one of mine or molest one of mine ,I will volunteer to pull the switch. I can't think of other reasons for the death penalty.Reasons ? Revenge,anger ,grief, and preventing it from happening again would be enough for me.



Agreed.
There are some offenses that deserve death.
The death penalty is not about preventing crimes, it is about making some very bad people dead.


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## Jeffriesw (Jul 25, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Agreed.
> There are some offenses that deserve death.
> The death penalty is not about preventing crimes, it is about making some very bad people dead.






Yep


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 25, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Agreed.
> There are some offenses that deserve death.
> The death penalty is not about preventing crimes, it is about making some very bad people dead.



I disagree. And why do Christians tout the 6th amendment when it comes to abortion or assisted suicide, but not the death penalty. 

"There is none righteous, no not one."


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## WTM45 (Jul 25, 2009)

I respect your opinion.  It is much different than mine. 

I respect your use of Romans 3:10.  But I would like to add that there ARE some who are much more unrighteous than others.  And when they commit murder, after a fair trial, conviction and proper appeal, they should be put to death humanely.

We will just have to agree to disagree.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 25, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> .  And when they commit murder, after a fair trial, conviction and proper appeal, they should be put to death humanely.
> 
> We will just have to agree to disagree.



And I, yours. But what of those who were put to death, and later found innocent?


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## THREEJAYS (Jul 25, 2009)

I don't see where we are given the right to take anyones life as in the death penalty however life w/ no parole option surly works for me.


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## PWalls (Jul 25, 2009)

I also believe that God delivers us from sin. He forgives us when we ask it and show a repentent heart. Our sins are removed from us as far as the east is from the west. However, I also believe that we still are handed the consequences. We still have to eat the pie we baked.


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## WTM45 (Jul 25, 2009)

There will always be a percentage of error in any justice system.  That's no reason to throw out the whole thing.

Guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt.  Innocence until proven guilty.
That's what our system is based on.  That's probably the best thing this world has ever seen.....up to this point in history.


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## Rip Steele (Jul 25, 2009)

I think they should bring hangging back. HA  I'm not evil neither


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## ambush80 (Jul 25, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Wow, I thought there would be some firm opinions on this one.
> 
> I, myself, am against it.
> 
> ...



If they could execute someone less expensively, then yes.    

Abe Lincoln said ( I paraphrase):  "I would rather see a hundred guilty men go free then to wrongly execute an innocent man."

With that in mind,  Perhaps only those who have admitted guilt should get executed (it happens).  

I would also like to see the families of the victims have to "push the button" or "throw the switch" themselves; see how angry they really are.  If what they want is revenge, then that should satisfy them.  

Execution may take away the victims opportunity to have a change of heart and apologize to the victims family, which is more often what the family really wants.

If a life term in prison were harder; 16 hrs. per day forced labor,  rudimentary porridge for meals,  no TV, internet or recreation,  forced counseling/college education, perhaps more of them would do it themselves.  Perhaps give them the opportunity/option to kill themselves at any time during their life term.

Just some thoughts.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 25, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> If they could execute someone less expensively, then yes.
> 
> Abe Lincoln said ( I paraphrase):  "I would rather see a hundred guilty men go free then to wrongly execute an innocent man."
> 
> ...



Oh my goodness, ambush and I agree!!!!  Except the first sentence. Even if it were cheap, wait, especially if it were cheaper, I would be against it.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 25, 2009)

THREEJAYS said:


> I don't see where we are given the right to take anyones life as in the death penalty however life w/ no parole option surly works for me.



I'm with you.
As a Christian, I don't believe God would want me to flip the switch that would begin the execution process.
If on a jury, I don't believe I could vote for execution.
Someplace in my mind, I know there are people who deserve capital punishment, but Christianity isn't about give what people deserve.  I certainly don't what what I deserve.  I want grace and mercy.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 26, 2009)

Death penalty, yes...mostly in admitted guilt cases.

Perhaps an eye for an eye would work better in some crimes.
If you molest or rape someone, remove the offending parts...hands/other. That might deter some pervs. Of course positive proof would be in order.

One thing that bothers me is many libs that are prochoice/proabortion are against the death penalty for the very reason that it's inhumane and because an innocent person might die. Well dur...isn't all aborted babies innocent? and how humane is sucking you out of a womb, seperating limbs etc.

We are still called to render unto God what is God's and unto Caesar(our gov/laws) what is Caesar's. God expects us to adhere to the laws of the land whether we like them or not. Not that we shouldn't try to change the laws when and if we can.


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## Israel (Jul 26, 2009)

I am not sure I am called to render an opinion about what unbelievers do to maintain worldly order.
I know this, Jesus could have easily killed all those who unlawfully took his life...


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## THREEJAYS (Jul 26, 2009)

I can understand the wanting of a death sentence for many of the criminals out there.Many have said that we are to render to ceasar whats his.I agree with following mans laws up untill it is contrary to scripture. Nevada says prostitution is legal(some areas),abortion,homosexual lifestyles etc. I won't follow things that aren't in line w/ scripture even though it might be legal.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 26, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Death penalty, yes...mostly in admitted guilt cases.
> 
> Perhaps an eye for an eye would work better in some crimes.
> If you molest or rape someone, remove the offending parts...hands/other. That might deter some pervs. Of course positive proof would be in order.
> ...



Why do Christians tout the 6th amendment when it comes to abortion or assisted suicide, but not the death penalty?

And I ask, how are you against abortion, and yet for the death penalty? Isn't taking a life, taking a life? 

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.


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## ambush80 (Jul 26, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Death penalty, yes...mostly in admitted guilt cases.
> 
> Perhaps an eye for an eye would work better in some crimes.
> If you molest or rape someone, remove the offending parts...hands/other. That might deter some pervs. Of course positive proof would be in order.
> ...



I thought everyone is created a sinner; even little bitty babies.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 26, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> I thought everyone is created a sinner; even little bitty babies.



Well I'm at least glad that you think everyone is created, that's  good.

And your point about sinners? 

Babies are born into sin, IF they are born. 
Little bitty babies, I'm assuming you mean aborted ones.....if so...they are sinless. They aren't born into sin.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 26, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Why do Christians tout the 6th amendment when it comes to abortion or assisted suicide, but not the death penalty?
> 
> And I ask, how are you against abortion, and yet for the death penalty? Isn't taking a life, taking a life?
> 
> All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.



And I ask the opposite question. What's your answer on that?

Are you against abortion and the death penalty? morally that is?

Morally I am prolife, lawfully I am prochoice, we all are, like it are not. Same for the death penalty.
Render unto God what is God's and unto Caesar what is Caesars (our laws of the land).
I have no choice but to abide by the abortion law right now.
I am against abortion but then again that's my choice. Everyone doesn't feel the same way.

If a certain crime bears a death penalty, yet someone commits that crime, do you honestly think that the blame lies on those of us who accept the law in whatever states it applies? Shouldn't the person who committed the crime choose to NOT commit the crime because it bears a death penalty? or do you think they should just go ahead and do what they want to and hope people will 'bail' them out of the punishment set for the crime?

What part of this understanding am I missing?

I don't rob banks because I don't want to go to jail (other than I don't have it in me to do that)

Seems like a good reason NOT to rob a bank though.


How many child molesters would we have if the punishment would be to remove the offending parts??? Yeah you can get bailed out but first we need to protect children from you.
Let's see, let's protect the children or the criminals?....uh I just don't know...hum..hard decision. We'll give him another chance and what happens, another child bites the dust, that seems like justice to me, eh?


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## mtnwoman (Jul 26, 2009)

THREEJAYS said:


> I can understand the wanting of a death sentence for many of the criminals out there.Many have said that we are to render to ceasar whats his.I agree with following mans laws up untill it is contrary to scripture. Nevada says prostitution is legal(some areas),abortion,homosexual lifestyles etc. I won't follow things that aren't in line w/ scripture even though it might be legal.



I'm against all those things that are against scripture. I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm saying we are stuck with it.
I'm sure God did not agree with Caesars laws and does not agree with ours, but He calls us to abide by it. 

The Word of God is sharper than any twoedged sword, cutting assunder soul(earth) and spirit (with God).
I have to be prochoice whether I want to be or not....until/unless we can change the law. I am  1000% against abortion but I can't force that on my neighbor (that is unlawful)...at least not now. I can report my neighbor for selling dope though....I won't be able to when/if it becomes legal.

That's my point. We can abide by scripture without having an abortion, which is legal, without being a prostitute which is legal some place, without being a homosexual which seems politically correct....we can NOT agree with those things but must still live in a world and abide by laws regarding those things.
Hope that makes sense.

I in no way intend on the verse of rendering unto Caesar, meaning we have to agree with it...Jesus didn't, did He? and we are suppose to be following Him.
But for now God just asks us to abide by the laws...guess He knows that might keep us out of jail or other trouble.

I could picket an abortion clinic or I can find some hungry children to feed...WWJD on that? fight the law or overcome it?


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## mtnwoman (Jul 26, 2009)

Israel said:


> I am not sure I am called to render an opinion about what unbelievers do to maintain worldly order.
> I know this, Jesus could have easily killed all those who unlawfully took his life...



Yes He could have.

I believe you are correct about the render part, too. I believe it's in the understanding of the scripture, not that I'm saying I understand it fully or even in the right light.
But I do know that I'm not going to do anything unlawful just because I disagree with the law. Neither do I have to sin against God and practice something sinful, like abortion just because it is legal.

However we know we are heading down this path of entropy and this is just another step. Living in a world of messed up laws and morals. Struggling to rightly divide that is an ongoing and will be an ongoing process.


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## Israel (Jul 26, 2009)

Believers live far above the law. 
The spirit always supersedes the law.


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## earl (Jul 26, 2009)

What Would Scooby Doo ???????


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 26, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> And I ask the opposite question. What's your answer on that?
> 
> Are you against abortion and the death penalty? morally that is?
> First, I am both pro-life (why don't they just say pro-or anti-abortion???) and anti-death penalty. Killing is killing. With the government in the shape it is in, I do not want any crime to be one that is punishable by death.
> ...


I know the laws as they stand in the US, I am looking for your take on it from a personal and/or Biblical perspective. 







Israel said:


> Believers live far above the law.
> The spirit always supersedes the law.




I agree, Jesus said if you look on a fellow man with hate in your heart, you are guilty of murder. How many here would admit to that and take the death penalty because we must render to Cesears what is his???


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## ambush80 (Jul 27, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Well I'm at least glad that you think everyone is created, that's  good.
> 
> And your point about sinners?
> 
> ...



I'm not sure all the Christians in here would agree.  I imagine some might say that babies are human upon conception and already programed to sin.


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## Madman (Jul 27, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> And I, yours. But what of those who were put to death, and later found innocent?



Who would those be?


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## Paymaster (Jul 27, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Well I'm at least glad that you think everyone is created, that's  good.
> 
> And your point about sinners?
> 
> ...



Little aborted babies are not born! They had no choice either,unlike the murderer.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 27, 2009)

Madman said:


> Who would those be?



That may have happened a few times, depending on who you believe in the media. 

Mostly, its a hypothetical.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 27, 2009)

Two questions remain on the table...

Jesus said if you look on a fellow man with hate in your heart, you are guilty of murder. How many here would admit to that and take the death penalty because we must render to Cesears what is his???

And...
Would you have stoned the adulteress in John 8 because laws are laws and she knew the punishment when she broke the law?


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## mtnwoman (Jul 28, 2009)

Israel said:


> Believers live far above the law.
> The spirit always supersedes the law.



Yes, I agree...and I'm thankful that I even 'get' that.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 28, 2009)

earl said:


> What Would Scooby Doo ???????



Poo in the neighbor's yard? and leave it? and his master would leave it? and the master and his peanut gallery think it's funny???

Or would the master respect the neighbor's yard, even though the yard was different than his and keep his dog poo in his own yard?


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## mtnwoman (Jul 28, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> I know the laws as they stand in the US, I am looking for your take on it from a personal and/or Biblical perspective.



My final answer....Thou shalt not kill.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 28, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> I'm not sure all the Christians in here would agree.  I imagine some might say that babies are human upon conception and already programed to sin.



Well that may be true, but YOU said that you thought that all were created in sin, even itty bitty babies. I was responding to that....ya know?


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## mtnwoman (Jul 28, 2009)

Paymaster said:


> Little aborted babies are not born! They had no choice either,unlike the murderer.



Amen!!


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## mtnwoman (Jul 28, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Two questions remain on the table...
> 
> Jesus said if you look on a fellow man with hate in your heart, you are guilty of murder. How many here would admit to that and take the death penalty because we must render to Cesears what is his???
> *I have no hate in my heart for anyone.  Scott Peterson for example...I have no hate for him. He committed a crime that bears the death penalty. Would I choose that for him? No I would choose eternal life. Perhaps he will have time to come to Christ, knowing he is going to hang. Sometimes God uses extreme circumstances to get you to come to him. If that brings Scott Peterson to his knees, then yes I will agree with the death penalty....Jesus got the death penalty for my sins, why wouldn't I consider the death penalty to be a good thing?*
> ...


*No. I wouldn't, nor would I kill an unborn baby. Same thing eh? get rid of the problem that's bothering people?*

My point is that no matter what the laws of the land are even though God says to abide by them, (it's scripture, I didn't make it up, ya know?) we don't have to use those as an excuse to sin against God. Prostitution is legal...should I be one? no..should I have an abortion because it is legal? no?......would I want my neighbor to be ok with how I feel, even though they feel differently? 

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you....God doesn't say they have to be Christians does he?


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## mtnwoman (Jul 28, 2009)

I'd like to ask you all who have a problem with this scripture what is your dividing of the word on it  and I mean personally your interpretation, not what is Christian-itically correct. 

Luke 20:24-26 (King James Version)

 24Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's. 

 25And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's. 

 26And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.



Here's mine.


The response of Jesus when his enemies tried to trap him by asking whether it was right for the Jews, whose nation had been taken over by the Roman Empire, to pay tribute to the Roman emperor. He took a Roman coin that would be used to pay the tribute and asked whose picture was on it; his questioners answered, “Caesar's.” The reply of Jesus implied that in using Roman coins, the Jews accepted the rule of the Romans, and so the Roman government had the right to tax them, as long as the Jews were not compromising their religious duties. Jesus' more general point was, “Give to worldly authorities the things that belong to them, and to God what belongs to God.” 

AND this is what seperates me from being from this world and OF this world.

And second question...
what law can you name that you'd like to commit a crime against? (I have none)


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## earl (Jul 28, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Poo in the neighbor's yard? and leave it? and his master would leave it? and the master and his peanut gallery think it's funny???
> 
> Or would the master respect the neighbor's yard, even though the yard was different than his and keep his dog poo in his own yard?



Scooby Doo don't poo !!!


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 28, 2009)

"Jesus got the death penalty for my sins, why wouldn't I consider the death penalty to be a good thing?"
HMMM I dont know, because its wrong? I am pretty sure Jesus isn't sitting in heaven saying "suck it up guys, I did it, you can too."

Luke 20:25 is self explanatory to me. I believe in following the laws of the land. I have never disputed that. I am just debating the worth of one particular law. Don't forget, we can always change our laws. 

I have no law I would commit a crime against (unless they outlaw Christianity). 
Since you wanna go down that road, what if Christianity was outlawed, and the punishment was the death penalty? I realize in America that is a stretch, but in many parts of the world, not so much. Another reason to not be so eager to support the death penalty


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## JustUs4All (Jul 28, 2009)

Just a question about turning the other cheek.  If taking one's own life is wrong, is allowing someone else to take it also wrong?  In other words should you attempt to defend your life against someone who would take it.  Should society extend that defense in the form of taking the life of one who has wrongfully taken the life of another and who will likely do it again.

I think yes.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 28, 2009)

JustUs4All said:


> Just a question about turning the other cheek.  If taking one's own life is wrong, is allowing someone else to take it also wrong?  In other words should you attempt to defend your life against someone who would take it.  Should society extend that defense in the form of taking the life of one who has wrongfully taken the life of another and who will likely do it again.
> 
> I think yes.



How is that the only solution? 
Life in prison ring a bell?


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## earl (Jul 28, 2009)

Life imprisonment condemns society in that we have to pay for the upkeep and in many cases the legal fees of prisoners. If they turn to God only because they are fixing to meet him, I got my doubts about their sincerity.  I do agree that family members should be allowed to pull the switch after a court of law has found the person guilty.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 28, 2009)

earl said:


> Life imprisonment condemns society in that we have to pay for the upkeep and in many cases the legal fees of prisoners. If they turn to God only because they are fixing to meet him, I got my doubts about their sincerity.  I do agree that family members should be allowed to pull the switch after a court of law has found the person guilty.



The death penalty is more expensive than life in prison.


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## Paymaster (Jul 28, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> The death penalty is more expensive than life in prison.



How about backing that with some stats if you would or post a link with info. I would be interested in how that was determined.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 28, 2009)

earl said:


> Scooby Doo don't poo !!!



Well I'm glad to know that....


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## mtnwoman (Jul 28, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Luke 20:25 is self explanatory to me. I believe in following the laws of the land. I have never disputed that. I am just debating the worth of one particular law. Don't forget, we can always change our laws.
> 
> I have no law I would commit a crime against (unless they outlaw Christianity).
> Since you wanna go down that road, what if Christianity was outlawed, and the punishment was the death penalty? I realize in America that is a stretch, but in many parts of the world, not so much. Another reason to not be so eager to support the death penalty



I'm pretty sure Christianity will be outlawed or at least some will try to outlaw it.
And it will have a death penalty attached to it....revelations says that who of us that do not take the mark of the beast will be punished.
I'm not afraid of that kind of death penalty.
That discussion (going down THAT road as you say) is kind of a short  road for me that I won't have to go down very far. I already know that's gonna happen.

Are you that worried about it to not support the death penalty for some offenders? I'm not in the least little bit.

I'd be joyful to go to heaven today.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 28, 2009)

earl said:


> Life imprisonment condemns society in that we have to pay for the upkeep and in many cases the legal fees of prisoners. If they turn to God only because they are fixing to meet him, I got my doubts about their sincerity.  I do agree that family members should be allowed to pull the switch after a court of law has found the person guilty.



Amen!
OT I know but here goes..
Hey does anyone know how much the tax payers pay for abortions? Social services pays for approx 50% of abortions performed in this country, that's a $450 each fee that the taxpayers pay...1.31 million per year. Even if I didn't believe as I do, I have a problem with that.
That same social services offers free birth control to the same people who qualify for abortions. In NC you can get 3subsidized abortions every 10 yrs.
Doesn't this bother anyone?
I'd like prochoice in not paying for them. Put it on our payroll checks. If you're prochoice check here, 5% more will be deducted for state funded abortions.

Seems cheaper just to get these people on birth control, wouldn't that be a better solution than abortion.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 28, 2009)

JustUs4All said:


> Just a question about turning the other cheek.  If taking one's own life is wrong, is allowing someone else to take it also wrong?  In other words should you attempt to defend your life against someone who would take it.  Should society extend that defense in the form of taking the life of one who has wrongfully taken the life of another and who will likely do it again.
> 
> I think yes.



Amen to that


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 28, 2009)

Paymaster said:


> How about backing that with some stats if you would or post a link with info. I would be interested in how that was determined.



The stats are all over the internet. google cost of death penalty. Most are from anti-or pro-death penalty organizations, so both sides are biased. I will try and see if I can get some reliable information. (doubtful)

But, again, thats not the point, is it? 
We do not quarrel over the cost of most prison sentences because we believe they are deserved. 

The principal of the thing is what we are debating, in light of what scripture says. 

I have found nothing where Jesus endorses killing another human because they are bad. He received the death penalty, yes.  We must follow the laws of the land, yes. But that is hardly a scriptural basis for lethal injection.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 28, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> How is that the only solution?
> Life in prison ring a bell?



What does life in prison deter?

Still using the abortion example.....
Do you think if social services didn't pay for thousands of abortions and these same people had to pay for their abortion at at least $450 a shot, would that deter anybody from getting pregnant.....I betcha it would.
In other words should they pay for their actions or let responsible people pay for their actions?

Don't you think it would be a good example to go by? You get pregnant, you pay for abortion.....or what you sow in the flesh you reap in the flesh.

What do you think is stopping a man from killing another man who's raped his 5 year old daughter? Possibly the death penalty? That might stop a few or at least make them think.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 28, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> What does life in prison deter?
> 
> Still using the abortion example.....
> Do you think if social services didn't pay for thousands of abortions and these same people had to pay for their abortion at at least $450 a shot, would that deter anybody from getting pregnant.....I betcha it would.
> ...



While I will admit to the bias here, click on the link just to expand your mind...

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/det...alty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates

Better more diverse reading here....

http://www.cjlf.org/deathpenalty/DPDeterrence.htm


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## mtnwoman (Jul 28, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> The stats are all over the internet. google cost of death penalty. Most are from anti-or pro-death penalty organizations, so both sides are biased. I will try and see if I can get some reliable information. (doubtful)
> 
> But, again, thats not the point, is it?
> We do not quarrel over the cost of most prison sentences because we believe they are deserved.
> ...



I personally am not using scripture to justify the death penalty...and I personally feel like that most people get what they deserve when they go to prison. Imagine the life of a child molester in prison?

I don't know, and I mean I really don't know about the death penalty on a secular basis...politically or whatever. 
I live in the secular world because I have no other choice. I couldn't pull the switch even if someone killed my only daughter, I still couldn't pull the switch. But if the punishment was set forth to be the death penalty for the perp then that was law before the perp did what he did, it's on him, it's his choice to take that chance....the fault will not lie in me.

If someone broke into your house to try to harm you or your family, would the death penalty be out of the question for you then. You either believe or don't believe in killing someone, so what would you do? Let him rape your wife and children and rob you? or is self defense really different...how about turning the other cheek then?


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## Paymaster (Jul 28, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> The stats are all over the internet. google cost of death penalty. Most are from anti-or pro-death penalty organizations, so both sides are biased. I will try and see if I can get some reliable information. (doubtful)
> 
> But, again, thats not the point, is it?
> We do not quarrel over the cost of most prison sentences because we believe they are deserved.
> ...




Please ,there are many scriptures referencing Godly Men executing an individual for far less than murder.
What I asked for is where or how it was determined that the death penalty is more expensive than life for the same person.You made that statement,I merely asked for some info. Lets say a 20 year old kills someone and at age 30 his appeals have expired,and then he is executed. How is that more expensive than him having his sentence commuted at 30 and he live to 80 or so in prison?


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 28, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> I personally am not using scripture to justify the death penalty...and I personally feel like that most people get what they deserve when they go to prison. Imagine the life of a child molester in prison?
> 
> I don't know, and I mean I really don't know about the death penalty on a secular basis...politically or whatever.
> I live in the secular world because I have no other choice. I couldn't pull the switch even if someone killed my only daughter, I still couldn't pull the switch. But if the punishment was set forth to be the death penalty for the perp then that was law before the perp did what he did, it's on him, it's his choice to take that chance....the fault will not lie in me.
> ...



Aha. Now there is a good question. I would argue that I must do what I can to protect life in the immediate. In this case, waiting for the proper avenues in the justice system is not an option. Remember, I am still pro-life. So, if I must shoot this perpetrator I will. I would not aim for the head, I would aim at the torso, and after the shot, I would try my best to give him first aid to save his life.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 28, 2009)

Paymaster said:


> Please ,there are many scriptures referencing Godly Men executing an individual for far less than murder.



Is this what Jesus did? 
I suspect your examples are in the old testament. 

Am looking for stats on cost of execution. 
But once again, cost isn't the question. If we wanted the cheapest justice system, we would have no judge, no juries, no jails, and certainly no appeals. One or two witnesses say you did it, you get shot.


edited to add-somewhat biased site, but they collected some reliable sources together. 
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty


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## mtnwoman (Jul 28, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Aha. Now there is a good question. I would argue that I must do what I can to protect life in the immediate. In this case, waiting for the proper avenues in the justice system is not an option. Remember, I am still pro-life. So, if I must shoot this perpetrator I will. I would not aim for the head, I would aim at the torso, and after the shot, I would try my best to give him first aid to save his life.



Disabling would be my first choice, too. I'd hate to kill someone, I'd never get over it. Heck I don't even kill animals, not even for food....yet anyway.  I have a problem with folks killing animals just for the game of it, too.

I don't own a firearm, so I have no intention of hurting anyone. I've got a metal baseball bat and if that didn't work then I'd be at the perps mercy.

There's really no way to prove just how many people have been detered because of the death penalty...no way to know at all.
JMHO... common sense tells me the death penalty is a deterent.


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## Paymaster (Jul 28, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Is this what Jesus did?
> I suspect your examples are in the old testament.
> 
> Am looking for stats on cost of execution.
> ...



The site references CASES! I am quite sure that the death penalty cases themselves are more expensive. Maybe I misunderstood your statement"The death penalty is more expensive than life in prison". No mention here of cases. I took you to say that it costs more to execute than keep them up for life.Oh well,back to my cave.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 28, 2009)

Here ya go, still looking for something better. Both viewpoints here. 

http://deathpenalty.procon.org/viewanswers.asp?questionID=001000

Also, if cost is such a stickler, the more expensive trial has got to be a bad thing in itself.


I do not have access to the academic information I used to, but, there are multiple studies on both sides. Both reach different conclusions. It is up to you to find out where you stan


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## JustUs4All (Jul 28, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> How is that the only solution?
> Life in prison ring a bell?



Didn't say it was the only solution, just trying to illustrate a point.


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## earl (Jul 28, 2009)

Don't pull a gun on some one if you won't shoot them.
Don't shoot some one unless you can kill them.
Guns have no  conscience.  

Or words to that effect.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 28, 2009)

earl said:


> Don't pull a gun on some one if you won't shoot them.
> Don't shoot some one unless you can kill them.
> Guns have no  conscience.
> 
> Or words to that effect.



How's about,
don't take a metal baseball bat to a gun fight 

Since we still have the right to bear arms, an intruder doesn't know whether I am armed or not, that works in my favor. Take the guns away and the perps know we could be defenseless.


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## ambush80 (Jul 28, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> I personally am not using scripture to justify the death penalty...and I personally feel like that most people get what they deserve when they go to prison. Imagine the life of a child molester in prison?
> 
> I don't know, and I mean I really don't know about the death penalty on a secular basis...politically or whatever.
> I live in the secular world because I have no other choice. I couldn't pull the switch even if someone killed my only daughter, I still couldn't pull the switch. But if the punishment was set forth to be the death penalty for the perp then that was law before the perp did what he did, it's on him, it's his choice to take that chance....the fault will not lie in me.
> ...





mtnwoman said:


> Disabling would be my first choice, too. I'd hate to kill someone, I'd never get over it. Heck I don't even kill animals, not even for food....yet anyway.  I have a problem with folks killing animals just for the game of it, too.
> 
> I don't own a firearm, so I have no intention of hurting anyone. I've got a metal baseball bat and if that didn't work then I'd be at the perps mercy.
> 
> ...



Do you eat meat?  If you do, those highlighted portions say alot about where you stand.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 28, 2009)

I cannot believe no one on this forum will debate scripture on this subject. Not that I am picking, but I figured some would have scripture on speed dial for this one...lol


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## mtnwoman (Jul 30, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Do you eat meat?  If you do, those highlighted portions say alot about where you stand.



Yes I eat meat.
Only if I were hungry though would I kill the animals. I'm not saying it's wrong to kill animals for food, did I? I just said I couldn't kill an animal. You don't know anyone who can't kill an animal? 

And besides what is your point? and where do you think I stand?...I guess I'm  not getting it. 

I don't have a gun because my first husband got killed in a hunting accident. I used to shoot until then, not animals, just target practice. I don't like guns. Where I stand is if it's my time to go, I will, if it isn't then God will give me the tools I need. I don't live in fear of death.


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## whiterock116 (Jul 30, 2009)

earl said:


> Neither christian or atheist so perhaps my opinion wont count but here goes.
> If you kill one of mine or molest one of mine ,I will volunteer to pull the switch. I can't think of other reasons for the death penalty.Reasons ? Revenge,anger ,grief, and preventing it from happening again would be enough for me.



X2!


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