# Gon's turkey special



## herb mcclure (Mar 2, 2015)

This is a story about what is happening to Georgia,s turkeys and the rest of the Southeast's Turkey Flocks. Donald's reasoning and exploring the facts are well written and taken by myself.
Even the late control burning after green-up he advocated is against turkey hens nesting and I believe after hatching, it is exposing young poults to varmints and especially to hawks and owls in the clean-off forest floor.

Ten years ago, when I was loosing so many of my resident turkey poults, which the wild hen nested and  then raised their poults on my homestead. I too became alarmed and contacted the head turkey biologist; in Albany, GA.,was ware it was; I believe. His name I have forgot, don't matter anyway, because he swept my theory of what's to-matter with turkey numbers; under the rug, back in 2005.  

Back then in 05, I told him that VARMINTS were hurting our turkey's population from reaching adulthood. Because, I was seeing this happen littery in my own backyard. But, he did not buy my theory .

One does not have to be a turkey biologist to see, from the chart on listed on page 20, of GON that something bad is wrong. Going from 4.7 per hen in 1980, to 1.1 in 2014 and a gradual curve down in between. What is it that's happening? ....VARMINTS and more VARMINTS IS WHATS IS HAPPENING TO YOUR WILD TURKEYS!

Our countrysides are being taken over with everything from:Wild hogs, Wildcats, Coyotes, Foxes, Coons, Skunks,Armadillos,  Possums, Hawks, Owls, Snakes and others. They all eat either eggs or young poults, or both.  

Thank about how much more varmints there are today,than yesteryear, because young boys and adults too, don't hunt or trap small game (VARMINTS) anymore, like we did forty-years ago and longer. Today's population would rather push their button games or computers, than take action against those Varmints listed above, which eat the turkeys you like to hunt. 

It don't make sense to me, to make habitat, if the turkeys don't live to enjoy it. 

If we don't start controlling VARMINTS, which eat turkeys, their eggs and young poults, then we will see shorter seasons and smaller bag limits soon, I believe.
herb mcclure


----------



## Luke0927 (Mar 2, 2015)

I second that Mr. Herb.  Nest raiding critters and young poult snatchers need to be trapped and shot, sure wouldn't hurt the rabbit or quail populations either.


----------



## kmckinnie (Mar 2, 2015)

Fireants have a effect also.


----------



## critterslayer (Mar 2, 2015)

I've been trying to do my part in the mountains. After this recent snow, 90% of the tracks in it were coyote, bobcat and coon.


----------



## Luke0927 (Mar 2, 2015)

That yote has been eating good.


----------



## mauser64 (Mar 3, 2015)

Varmints and turkeys have been co existing for thousands if not tens of thousands of years. I know they take plenty but I don't think they are the difference maker. I think the two legged predator has more influence. Mainly from habitat reduction and manipulation.


----------



## Arrowhead95 (Mar 3, 2015)

Take it for what's it' worth.

A study done over the last year on 300 coyotes here in Florida. Mostly brought in by trappers.

#1 meal of a male coyote was possum, followed by raccoon.

#1 meal of a female coyote was skunk.

No turkeys were discovered in any of the coyotes stomach contents.


----------



## Oak-flat Hunter (Mar 3, 2015)

I x2 that kind of reasoning.....from both of the last 2 post


----------



## M Sharpe (Mar 3, 2015)

Nature is a changing cycle, as we all know. I've got a place I hunt and in the past it just went down hill. Yote tracks everywhere and even coming to the call. I gave it a break for a few years. Last year that place was full of turkeys and very few coyote tracks. We all know that when turkey numbers are high, the predator numbers are down for a little while, then they start to rise and the turkey and quail numbers go down. I think every one of these varmints Mr. Herb mentioned have a direct effect on our turkey populations. NWTF has a write up about it in this issue too.


----------



## Jellyhead Joe (Mar 3, 2015)

I agree that predators play a role in hatch numbers more than man does. I also believe that weather plays a big part in the surviving hatch numbers of our turkeys. Some matters we can control, if we choose to. 
 I have lived in Georgia for over forty years now. When I was a child and teenager, you never saw a hawk flying through the sky. Yet today it is common to see them sitting atop power poles, overlooking fields and brush piles. In the 80s the hatch numbers soared compared to today's numbers. So what is different today compared to yesteryear?
  Mr. Herb wrote in his book about the hemlock trees coming into the North Ga. Mountains. He has witnessed this tree grow to shade out and kill what was once oak ridges. As a result the turkey numbers have dropped throughout this region.
  Man has his affect on the turkey population by cutting hardwood timber and replacing what was once good foraging area with loblolly pines. Predators have their affect because we fail to control their population. Nature has its affect by going from years of mild winters and drought like conditions to bitter winters with spring and summer floods.


----------



## Timber1 (Mar 3, 2015)

I have not read the article but from the information provided in these posts I will make a few observations.
The 80's were boom times for turkeys in Georgia. The restoration projects were being completed. Wild turkeys were everywhere now. Turkey hunting was not yet as popular as it has become. There were qualified  people actually out in the field conducting studies continuously. The hatches exceeded the predation by volumes. More chicks means more survival just by shear numbers of chicks to predators. They could only catch and eat so many. Through the 90's turkey hunting popularity increased tremendously. Hens being shot by people who couldnt tell a hen from a gobbler. Nests being disturbed. The data being collected was not being done by biologists as much but more by information collected by hunters. 
Personally I have seen numbers declining. They fell off sharply in the late 90's but were still much better than pre-restoration times. I have seen it kind of level off in the last 10 years or so. I think mauser64 is on the right track with his thinking. I also think that declining numbers of poults, especially in agri areas is affected by poisoning from insecticides, herbicides, fertilizers and other farming practices. Their food chain has been contaminated.


----------



## Jellyhead Joe (Mar 3, 2015)

Great info Timber! I can agree with everything you are saying. There is more factors than a single person can list which attributes to the low numbers that we read about today, including insufficient or unreliable data.


----------



## Curtis-UGA (Mar 3, 2015)

In the area I live turkeys are still expanding their range. There are birds in alot of areas that didn't have any 10 years ago.


----------



## sman (Mar 3, 2015)

I got to thinking last night and in 1986 I went on my first turkey hunt.  We went to a WMA opening morning.  I remember us being a little late.  It was Cedar Creek.  Not a truck anywhere we went.  Maybe we were locals of Monticello and went to spots off the beaten path.  I do remember twice hunters walking in on us.  I also remember hearing a bunch of bird.

Wonder how many people hunted when the rate was around 4 versus now?  May WE are playing a bigger role than we think.


----------



## mhammock (Mar 3, 2015)

I believe deforestation has a major role also.


----------



## Core Lokt (Mar 3, 2015)

I think all the above mentioned combined is what is effecting the population. Not only 1 of them. But, what do i know.....


----------



## Slings and Arrows (Mar 3, 2015)

I find that kids love to shoot varmints!


----------



## Paint Brush (Mar 3, 2015)

Turkeys are vulernable at diffrent stages for diffrent predators. Your nest robbers are one of the worst enemies I have seen way too many nest broken up not too realize how big this problem is. And dont kid yourself about that coyote this is when him and the bobcat get the hen and the nest. This stage also includes the coons ,possums , foxes and I think armadillos and skunks. After the polts hatch every thing from an owl,hawk too a house cat ,yes those mangy cats that run wild all over our state. The weather comes in to play for about two weeks aftre hatching also while they still have down on them. Old wives tale says the poult will drown in a rain I dont belive it for a minute. What happens is they get that down wet and take chill and die of hypothermia. After they are able to fly up in a roost at nite you woul think things get better but it dosent poults just fall over dead for no apparent reason I have seen it a lot.


----------



## rydert (Mar 3, 2015)

mhammock said:


> I believe deforestation has a major role also.



there are actually more trees growning now than there were 50 yrs ago.
Edited to add this is on the east coast since this is the area that we are talking about.....


----------



## mauser64 (Mar 3, 2015)

rydert said:


> there are actually more trees growning now than there were 50 yrs ago.
> Edited to add this is on the east coast since this is the area that we are talking about.....



Yea but it's the kind of trees.  Out of my 1100 acre lease only 200 acres or less are mature forest. The rest is a pine plantation approx 5 or 6 years old and choked out with blackberry and other weeds. Good for rabbits and deer. Not so much turkeys. That is what most of those trees you speak of are.


----------



## robert carter (Mar 3, 2015)

I have had yotes come in to my yelps more than once. I`m purty sure they eat turkeys....If there is a huge impact they say on the deer herd why would we think there is not one on the Turkeys..just saying.RC


----------



## herb mcclure (Mar 3, 2015)

Turkey men, most all of you have made very good comments of things that do pertain to the problem of the young turkeys counts per hen going down, since the early 80's. I think, Paint Brush though, painted the picture of the young turkey's decline better than anyone; with his post.

The chart shows we have a problem; but what are we willing to do about it? No doubt turkey hens still lay the same size clutch of eggs, which they always have. However, now days for some reason, not as many are reaching adulthood.   

A lot of things do effect this happening, as many of you pointed out.
I personally have see with my own eyes how VARMINTS do effect nest and poults. Many other things I know, have a devastating effect too.

Hopefully, our DNR TURKEY MEN will take note of GON's fine article and see this feedback on the forum too. This is a serious situation, which needs to be address; remember this is a mutable state problem; not just Georgia.
herb mcclure


----------



## elfiii (Mar 3, 2015)

Curtis-UGA said:


> In the area I live turkeys are still expanding their range. There are birds in alot of areas that didn't have any 10 years ago.



Same here where I hunt in SE Troup. Turkey are plentiful. It's the deer that have vanished.

That being said I'm certain 4 legged predators are having an impact. 2 years ago I found the remains of a hen carcass on her nest with two eggs. The eggs were cracked open and obviously eaten after the hen was dispatched.


----------



## Gut_Pile (Mar 3, 2015)

I think that habitat is number one when it comes to survival. After habitat comes the extermination of predators. 

Trapping coons, possums, skunks, etc is not hard to do. It's just convincing people to get off their butts in december, january, and february to go do it.


----------



## Klondike (Mar 3, 2015)

Always a bunch of factors. When our lease traps turkey, rabbit and deer go up.  Stop trapping for a few years and they go down.

Short cycle predator management matters


----------



## Jody Hawk (Mar 3, 2015)

mauser64 said:


> Varmints and turkeys have been co existing for thousands if not tens of thousands of years. I know they take plenty but I don't think they are the difference maker. I think the two legged predator has more influence. Mainly from habitat reduction and manipulation.



This.


----------



## p&y finally (Mar 3, 2015)

Since '02 I have been bowhunting deer in Kansas and the number of predators (coyotes, coons, bobcats, skunks) far outnumber what I see here in Ga. yet the turkey population is unreal. EVERY evening and most mornings its common to hear 3-5 packs of coyotes and usually see one every day or two. I sat on the stand several years ago and counted 42 longbeards in a flock! 
Theres no doubt predators kill some turkeys. Like so many other animals though, I think humans are their worse enemy


----------



## Paint Brush (Mar 3, 2015)

Herb. Just to give an example of how much things have changed up here in the mtns. In 76 or 77 I rode through the chattahoochee wma right before the thanksgiving deer hunt. From low gap creek to Jaycees creek I saw 3 fall flocks with a total of 150 birds. People have forgotten how many birds were trapped an sent all over the state from the mtn WMAs also. In the early to mid eighties it was nothing for me to hear from 4 to 10 every morning. And being in my learn how to do this stage very few ended up across my back. DNR has always let a problem get to the point of no return before a thing is done about it. I for one think the season is too long. If a turkey has the gobbling gene in him it is highly doubtful he will see next spring. Food plots and 70 yrd turkey guns reall hurt his odds of making it.


----------



## herb mcclure (Mar 3, 2015)

*GON's TURKEY SPECIAL*

Hi Cliff, I agree with you again, this state needs to rethink its turkey season and shorten it considerable, which the turkeys chasers on this forum, are not going to stand for  happening; anytime soon. When there is a problem of low turkeys numbers to hunt through out the state, maybe then. 

Back to the GON's article and chart on page 20. Something is wrong when hen's can't raise their young; like the chart clearly shows of the downward trend.  You and I both know what the problem most likely  is. No doubt, today's mutable shooters are killing too many turkeys with long seasons and long range guns. But, how can the killing of all ready grown gobblers have anything to do with the hen's poults  count going down; unless the hens don't get breed and are counted without poults in the surveys? 

I will stay with my reasoning of two many, and two many  different kinds of varmints in today's turkey woods as number one reason for the decline.
herb mcclure


----------



## M Sharpe (Mar 4, 2015)

I hunt Ft. Stewart a lot and every year about this time, they start burning. I know this is a good time to burn. It is also detrimental to hens trying to raise poults. I know that hens will re-nest, but according to Henry Davis' phylosophy, those hens never hatch a second brood. ??????? I've also seen pictures of hens sitting on nest, burnt, with small (dead)poults under her. Lots of good answers here!


----------



## Paint Brush (Mar 4, 2015)

M Sharpe said:


> I hunt Ft. Stewart a lot and every year about this time, they start burning. I know this is a good time to burn. It is also detrimental to hens trying to raise poults. I know that hens will re-nest, but according to Henry Davis' phylosophy, those hens never hatch a second brood. ??????? I've also seen pictures of hens sitting on nest, burnt, with small (dead)poults under her. Lots of good answers here!



 I like fire as a management tool but it has to be done at the right time of the year or you do end up losing more than you help. Forresters like the late burns because it does more good when you are trying to kill back unwanted vegetation. I have seen a lot of hens have success with the second nest here in the mtns. But like Herb said we have way to many hens that dont even hatch one brood. I dont know why this is,whether its predation or the hen simply wasent bred. I know one of the universitys can do a study with radio transmitters on hens to give us better insite as to what is happing with the nesting failures. The state can spend untold money to study stuff like snail darters and zebra mussels but let something like the turkey suffer to bad management.


----------



## birddog52 (Mar 4, 2015)

Left out one thing especially in my side of the state we have lost a lot of turkeys ( due to the use of chicken litter on fields& pasture land). Using chicken litter can&has spread a lot disease to turkeys as well as other birds. Turkeys and song birds they don't have any resistance to diseases transmitted from domscate poultry flocks, Like blackhead and other respiratory diseases. I know predators have taken a toll but with the right habitat which is some young growth timber and predatory control turkey numbers would come back Georgia's Turkey season is also to long a lot less turkeys in north east Georgia  due to a lot of the above factors than we had 15 years ago Plus wild hogs another bad nest predatory


----------



## Timber1 (Mar 4, 2015)

From what I understand the way the get their data is from drive by and in the field observations from forest service personnel. I would say most of these observations are made of turkey hens in open areas, fields, food plots, etc. I would say mortality rates for these birds is much higher than the hen and her poults that are not out and exposed to these open areas. I still see plenty of young birds each fall after they have survived thru the summer months and are big enough to fend for themselves. I think if the survival rate was as low as the article states we would be seeing a severe shortage of turkeys in a very short time, not 10 or 12 years but more like 2 or 3. You have to remember we are talking about an animal whos life cycle is short to begin with. The population would drop off very quickly if the survival rate of turkeys thru their first year of life gets so low that mortality is greater than survival.


----------



## birddog52 (Mar 4, 2015)

Dnr get there data from the wag system and some of them can tell you now georgia turkey season to long.  ( i can remember when the ga season was first extended and the main reason for it was the whim of a former state represtantive and his cronies in north georgia whining about the turkeys only get to gobbling after the season had closed. So that was main reason it was extended. Plus my guess more license sales from out of state hunters. I know and have ran into alot hunters from west virginia north carolina south carolina hunting in georgia before& after there state seasons open & close due to that fact. When you have politicians calling the shots on wildlife issues really not much use for having any wildlife biologist.


----------



## Gaswamp (Mar 4, 2015)

Does anyone know if Donald Devereaux Jarrett, author of the article in GON is a member of the forum?


----------



## herb mcclure (Mar 4, 2015)

*GON's TURKEY SPECIAL*

I myself, think this is an eyeopener, or should be, to all turkey men, regardless of where one hunts. Plenty of places have plenty of turkeys; like the photos on here have shown. Others have posted of how turkeys in their neck of the woods are down from years past; some recently and others several year's back.

Surely as grown men, we can visualize that not all areas are the same. The same reasoning,  should tell us that know one thing controls turkey numbers everywhere. 

But, I keep going back to the fact that something is happening to the hen's poults, to bring down the state- wide pout count; weather that effects your hunting place are not. Sooner or later the gobble yall all like to hear; may be like the grouse that use to beat in the springtime woods, which don't happen all that much anymore.

Why can't we as turkey men come together and put presser on our DNR and NWTF to find out what the trouble is and start taking steps to correct the problem.
herb mcclure


----------



## Bucky T (Mar 4, 2015)

Maybe it's because the turkeys have established a carrying capacity for the habitat they currently have to live in?

Where were established populations of wild turkey residing in this state in 1980 vs. 2014?


----------



## Paint Brush (Mar 4, 2015)

Herb we need to get a group together and discuss this on a woodsman level. Biologist have become too biased in their decisions. A woodsman sees what is going on in the woods.


----------



## herb mcclure (Mar 4, 2015)

*GON's TURKEY SPECIAL*

To: Bucky T, you have a good point in your statement of turkey's reaching carrying capacity for given habitat, which I would term available year around food as main factor. This would surely be true in  areas of total turkey numbers declining. 
But again, that won't cause a hen's poults counts to go down; carrying capacity would only effect total turkey population. Something else has to take away the little turkey; weather it is rain and cold, varmints as I call young turkey killers, no food for them to eat, (STARVATION), or any number of other things, which causes a hen to have less little ones with her.But, your point is well taken for total decline of turkey population, and this may be true across the southeastern states.

You need to get to get DNR to give us what counties were open to hunt turkeys in 1980 and compare that to counties open in2014; to answer your second question.    

We have seen what deer do, when they too reach carrying capacity. 
herb mcclure


----------



## M Sharpe (Mar 5, 2015)

There is a big restocking program slated for east Texas, according to the NWTF. Their eastern numbers are way down for the last several years. Along with LA and MS.


----------



## Gaswamp (Mar 5, 2015)

Is DNR doing the poult surveying by themselves or do they use the general public as well.  I did it myself at one time but they quit sending me cards to do the poult survey.


----------



## herb mcclure (Mar 5, 2015)

*GON's TURKEY SPECIAL*

No doubt, I am overusing my welcoming, on this thread, but it is serious business to me, what is happening to turkeys in so many places across Georgia.
I would like to ask, for Mr. Daryl Kirby, editor of GON, to ask our DNR turkey biologist in charge of Georgia's turkey programs to come on this forum and tell all the turkey enthusiasts, who are following this thread and those who will read the story in GON, about GON's TURKEY SPECIAL article. I believe the turkey biologist in charge of DNR's turkey projects;  owes us their take on what's happening and what steps they plan to take, if the problem is real. 
herb mcclure


----------



## bubbafowler (Mar 5, 2015)

I agree that these are all problems, but no one wants to shoot less. Most turkey hunters I know including myself brag based on the number of turkey's they watch die. Some of your really good callers watch 10-15 toms die each year! This is just one person. The author of the article has previously written about he himself doing that. With deer most hunters are happy with one big buck. But with turkey's your not good unless you limit out and then call in some for other people! There are allot of turkey's harvested every year. I think allot more than we account for.


----------



## NUTT (Mar 5, 2015)

I think most of you will find compared to the entire state this turkey forum is just a drop in the bucket to the number of turkey hunters out there trying to hunt. Most folks here really care about the population BUT you have to know there are hunters out there that bam up what they want and when they want and whatever species of game. I would bet this is the problem in certain areas regarding the low population. 
Think about how many people have started turkey hunting in the last 10 years. I used to could ride from my house to my property to hunt and never see a vehicle. Now any given Saturday during turkey season you can see 4-8 vehicles on the side of the road. I firmly believe all the pressure from tons of hunters have taken a toll on the turkeys as a whole. I don't disagree that prescribed burning is not taking out some hen nest. I think predators do take their share and we have had 2-3 years of really wet springs and summers. All this combined has effected the numbers. I have not taken a limit of birds in 3 years by choice. I plant more food plots and try to limit pressure on the birds by hunting multiple tracks. That's all I can do at this point for conservation sake.


----------



## bubbafowler (Mar 7, 2015)

I agree with nutt, especially in our area. I happen to know one hunter in our area that is responsible for about 10 turkeys dying a year. He only kills his limit but he calls many for others. He is retired and has access to literally thousands of acres right around us. Heck I myself watched five die last year, although it was three different counties. And you can over harvest a male in a species. I have access to one propertythat has a fflock of about 20 hens. Never been a Tom on it. They have never had poults. Flock was about 30-40 a couple years ago but it's dwindling down because they're not bred. We have to learn to be responsible for our actions and self regulate. That's what the state encourages with liberal limits!!  Work with your neighbors and make educated decisions to maintain the proper balance.


----------



## Strutter (Mar 18, 2015)

He is not real active but gets on it occassionally


----------



## TheTurkeySlayer (Mar 18, 2015)

herb mcclure said:


> I would like to ask, for Mr. Daryl Kirby, editor of GON, to ask our DNR turkey biologist in charge of Georgia's turkey programs to come on this forum and tell all the turkey enthusiasts, who are following this thread and those who will read the story in GON, about GON's TURKEY SPECIAL article. I believe the turkey biologist in charge of DNR's turkey projects;  owes us their take on what's happening and what steps they plan to take, if the problem is real.
> herb mcclure



x10000


----------



## emusmacker (Mar 19, 2015)

Please explain to me how turkeys in other states with very high yote populations thrive but for some reason our ga turkeys can't.  Like said before, predators and prey have coexisted since the beginning of time.  and the only prdator I know that has killed off a species to extiction is man.  The passenger pigeon for example.  And then man nearly eliminated the canvasback duck due to wanton killing.  

controlling predators will help a little but without natural predators, prey populations will get out of control.  the best form of wildlife consevation is Mother Nature.  Most of the time when man tries to help out, that creates the problems.


----------



## Huntinfool (Mar 19, 2015)

I think what Herb is pointing out is that the poult survival rate is dropping dramatically.  There's not really any way around that.  

Hunters are not killing poults in GA and (for the most part) hunters are not killing hens in GA (thus leaving orphan poults to die).

Something is causing the surival rate to drop quickly and it is not hunters.  It may be human causes....but it's not hunter pressure.  Hunters may be causing the overall population drop due to the numbers of males harvested COMBINED with the low survival rate.  But the survival rate is an issue all of its own.

There does seem to be a high correlation with the arrival of coyotes, pigs and armadillos north of Florida over the past 20 years.  None of those really existed up in middle to north georgia 20 years ago....at least not in great numbers.

I don't know what is causing the decline in survival rates.  But I do know for sure that it's not hunting pressure.  What I do know is that we need to figure out a solution and soon.


----------



## Atlanta Dawg (Mar 19, 2015)

I first turkey hunted in Georgia in 1993 and have been hunting the same property since that time.  In 1993 there were none taken and few heard or seen-subsequently with the planting of food plots for deer, several timber harvests, etc...flocks are abundant-with only a half dozen or so hunters the first two weekends, then 2 or 3 hunters after that typically 6 to 10 gobblers are taken.  We have no expert turkey hunters and after the end of April it is unusual to have anyone actually turkey hunting.  Habitat and food plots go a very long way....Plus....we have had none of the oft reported decline in deer sightings and all that surrounds it.......I am participating in the Bobby Bond-Wild Life Biologist-survey - looking forward to this season to begin !  (Headed out in the morning to figure out where they roosted (tonight) and where they end up Tomorrow night-I will be waiting on them on Saturday morning !!!  Have a great turkey season !

And to paraphrase Andre Risen-former Falcon Player:

"If you Ain't Huntin'-You Ain't Tryin"  !


----------



## emusmacker (Mar 19, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> I think what Herb is pointing out is that the poult survival rate is dropping dramatically.  There's not really any way around that.
> 
> Hunters are not killing poults in GA and (for the most part) hunters are not killing hens in GA (thus leaving orphan poults to die).
> 
> ...



I agree that there is a problem but to put most of the blame on predators is hard for me to understand.  Maybe it's habitat degradation?  Like I said I don't know, but I also know that Nature does a pretty good job of managing itself without the interference of man.  Killing every single predator on your land won't help the situation completely.


----------



## Bucky T (Mar 19, 2015)

emusmacker said:


> I agree that there is a problem but to put most of the blame on predators is hard for me to understand.  Maybe it's habitat degradation?  Like I said I don't know, but I also know that Nature does a pretty good job of managing itself without the interference of man.  Killing every single predator on your land won't help the situation completely.



Good Post.


----------



## Huntinfool (Mar 19, 2015)

emusmacker said:


> Nature does a pretty good job of managing itself without the interference of man.



Is that why both deer AND turkeys have had to be repopulated in our fine state?

I agree that we don't know what the problem is.  I, personally, think it's a combo of predator pop increases and man caused issues.


----------



## Bucky T (Mar 19, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> Is that why both deer AND turkeys have had to be repopulated in our fine state?
> 
> I agree that we don't know what the problem is.  I, personally, think it's a combo of predator pop increases and man caused issues.



Deer and Turkeys had to be repopulated because "Man" killed them off.  I'd call that interference by man.  Bad interference.  Good interference by "man" brought them back.

I will say, and it doesn't mean squat, that I've seen more hog sign than any other wildlife sign in the mountains. There are quite a few of them up there.  I can see hogs reeking havoc on turkey nests.


----------



## ryanwhit (Mar 19, 2015)

bubbafowler said:


> And you can over harvest a male in a species.



Sorry man, not in turkeys you can't.  Not unless you're baiting them up and selecting all males, and even then it'd be tough.  No offense, it's just science.


----------



## emusmacker (Mar 19, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> Is that why both deer AND turkeys have had to be repopulated in our fine state?
> 
> I agree that we don't know what the problem is.  I, personally, think it's a combo of predator pop increases and man caused issues.



Uhhh really?  

Bucky T told you why they had to be repopulated.  And some places just don't have habitat to support some game animals.  for example, why do you think there are no Big Horn Sheep running wild in Ga?  And even if man introduces them here, they will still disappear.  like I said nature don't need help.  But some feel they know more than nature I guess.


----------



## emusmacker (Mar 19, 2015)

You don't have to agree, I just know that in areas where man pretty much doesn't interefere, the animlas seem to do fine.  But man thinks he knows best so there we go.


----------



## Dixiegrouse (Mar 19, 2015)

This sounds like forums I read about grouse declining.Herb do you 
think no cutting in the mtns has hurt the nesting for Turkeys?The
hens that lay this year should be very healthy with all the acorns still on the ground.They should be able to produce very well unless 
we have an overly cold and wet spring.We will see when next years poult count come out.
Dixie.


----------



## herb mcclure (Mar 19, 2015)

*GON's TURKEY SPECIAL*

Interesting  reading from the many different post, how we all see things in different ways.
However, I have not seen anyone say much about hawks either. In my childhood, living with elderly grandparents born in the 1870's and learning their own learning, from nature and  how the hawks were. My grandma would shoot every hawk she could, because they eat her chickens, not just the baby's either.  I too, wittiness hawks being the number one young turkey killer. I know they are protected, great law, the same kind as the tree- hungers have done to our forest. 

How many on this forum have actual lived with wild turkeys. Having them living day and night on my home place, in the woods there, seeing what happens to turkey and the young poults the hen were raising; also seeing what was  happening to them. Well I have, and more than 15 years of observation studying wild turkeys there in the real life of them; not book learning as most. 

Yes, man is up-setting nature, big time, and if predators are not kept in check and allowing then to populate the turkey's habitat, then that adds to the wild turkey's caring capacity too, for that area.  

Many, many variables to this happening, of hens poults count's going down.

herb mcclure


----------



## herb mcclure (Mar 19, 2015)

*GON's TURKEY SPECIAL*

This is in-response to: Dixiegrouse and his question. Do I think not cutting the forest in the mountains has effected or hurt the nesting of turkeys.  True-fully, I don't know. One knows that without cutting the forest that the forest floor has become clean and bare of a lot of undergrowth, which would exposed turkey nests and the hen's on the nest too. 

Something else, which has happen to the mountain turkey's favorite nesting places, is the unavailable logs and limbs piles, which have rotted away over the years. The two or three hen nest, I have found in the wilds, were in log and limb cover, not undergrowth. Those countless trillions of white pines everywhere don't provide concealment on the leaves much either. 

When the forest was saw-milled with Ford Tractors or mules, the abundant tree tops that were left to rot; provided both Grouse and Wild Turkeys the ideal nesting cover. I am more sure this was helpful  the grouse, than the turkeys.

In answering your other question about this years abundant acorn crop. Yes I too agree with you, any wildlife that is healthy, from plenty to eat, should try to repopulate their species, more-so than an under-nourished weak species.  Like you stated, keep our fingers cross, for dry weather in the mountains. 
herb mcclure


----------



## Bucky T (Mar 20, 2015)

herb mcclure said:


> Interesting  reading from the many different post, how we all see things in different ways.
> However, I have not seen anyone say much about hawks either. In my childhood, living with elderly grandparents born in the 1870's and learning their own learning, from nature and  how the hawks were. My grandma would shoot every hawk she could, because they eat her chickens, not just the baby's either.  I too, wittiness hawks being the number one young turkey killer. I know they are protected, great law, the same kind as the tree- hungers have done to our forest.
> 
> How many on this forum have actual lived with wild turkeys. Having them living day and night on my home place, in the woods there, seeing what happens to turkey and the young poults the hen were raising; also seeing what was  happening to them. Well I have, and more than 15 years of observation studying wild turkeys there in the real life of them; not book learning as most.
> ...



Haven't mentioned a hawk or multiple species of raptors that reside in the same woods as turkeys simply because they've been coexisting with one another for thousands of years.

Sure hawks snatch up poults but it's a natural predator/prey relationship.


----------



## ryanwhit (Mar 20, 2015)

Bucky T said:


> Haven't mentioned a hawk or multiple species of raptors that reside in the same woods as turkeys simply because they've been coexisting with one another for thousands of years.
> 
> Sure hawks snatch up poults but it's a natural predator/prey relationship.



Yeah, no kidding.  When Bartram described the  morning chorus of gobbles as a constant shout that lasted for hours, do you think there were more or less hawks?  Do you think native indians were effective at significantly reducing avian predator numbers?


----------



## Timber1 (Mar 20, 2015)

Of course the native americans reduced the avian (those are birds right?) predators.
Just look at all the feathers they wore.
There are raptors in the woods? And you guys hunt with 20's and .410s...that's crazy!


----------



## Bucky T (Mar 20, 2015)

ryanwhit said:


> Yeah, no kidding.  When Bartram described the  morning chorus of gobbles as a constant shout that lasted for hours, do you think there were more or less hawks?  Do you think native indians were effective at significantly reducing avian predator numbers?



Probably more and doubt Native Americans were as effective as vehicles and PO'd people with shotguns, .22's, etc..


----------



## emusmacker (Mar 21, 2015)

Plus many of the Native American feathers were from turkeys and other fowl.

Herb do you really think if every single predator was eliminated it would help the poults?  If so then would you include man into the turkey's predator list?  So according to you we need to shoot hawks, which is illegal and then we as men (meaning people) should not kill turkeys either since we are predators.  Yea  makes sense to me.                     NOT.


----------



## GA DAWG (Mar 22, 2015)

Most clubs want let me coon hunt because of the dogs for some reason. I can help them out. Maybe one day they will see. Plus we have 50 times more hunters than we had just 15 yrs ago. I use to could go to my local wma and know almost everyone I saw. Specially during the week. I had lots of land to myself. Now you cant stir em with a stick up there anytime. I really think the limit should go back to 2. Save a few adult gobblers. Either way probably want anything Change until it gets real real bad. Kinda like now wuth the deer population. Some folks have been preaching it for yrs about a low population. Dnr didnt do a thing till now and even now its not much.


----------



## herb mcclure (Mar 22, 2015)

*GON's TURKEY SPECIAL*

No I don't thank what you are saying would be the end of the wild turkey's problems. However, the predators are trouble, to wild turkeys; because I have experience seeing WILDCATS, HAWKS, COONS AND HOUSE CATS actual take poults. 

Knowing myself, this is not the total problem, but one of the things that effect hens raising their young. 

I am not the one who is advocating,  what you are saying. Those are your words, not mine, Mr. Emusmacker.  

Why not  all of us, come together to admit, there is a problem and put presser on DNR to do something about this; instead of us going back and forth here downing each other. 
herb mcclure


----------



## Garnto88 (Mar 22, 2015)

I agree with all that has been said and all is a factor but I feel the biggest factor is destruction And clear cutting of habitat.  Turkey survival is dependant in good roost areas to protect them from what has been mentioned.  Turkeys don't eat pine cones and they don't like overgrown clearcut thickets.   Hardwood forest are getting fewer and fewer..


----------



## Timber1 (Mar 22, 2015)

Mr. McClure I thought of you today when I saw all the dead white pines taken out by controlled burns on the mountain wma that I hunt. 
I also noticed a big portion of die out of the bigger pines from beatle infestation I would guess.


----------



## herb mcclure (Mar 23, 2015)

*GON's TURKEY SPECIAL*

Timber1: Glad you notice the results, of how positive controls burns are on young White Pines. It is just one more, of the benefits, control burning does for our mountain's  wild turkey's habitat.  

I would like to know, if the larger trees you observed, which looked like beetle infestation were white pines, or some other type of pine. It has been several years over here, since I have notice much beetle infestation and then it was not in white pines; as much as it was for the Virginia Pine. 

Anyway I want to say thanks, to the U.S.Forest Serves , for their control burning. I would hope all turkey hunters would thank the forest personnel they come in contact within the different areas they hunt, for their control burning; weather burning was in their woods or not. They are up against a lots of resentment, from groups like Forest Watch, who are on top of everything the forest service does; including control burning. 
herb mcclure


----------



## dark horse (Mar 23, 2015)

Look up Histomoniasis (Blackhead disease).  This disease has a 75% mortality rate in turkeys and weakens those that survive.  It is contracted from direct ingestion of contaminated chicken litter OR from earthworms that have ingested cecal worm eggs from chicken litter.  Cecal worm eggs can live in the soil for THREE years after chicken litter is put down.  Chicken litter has been widely used in Bulloch county now for 6-8 years and our turkey numbers are WAY down during that time period.  Our turkey numbers began to go down a few years after the litter became popular.   If the current trend continues turkeys will be rare or non-existent in a county that just recently had TONS.  It is very well known that turkeys CANNOT be raised in conjunction or around anywhere that domestic chickens are being raised as well.


----------



## Timber1 (Mar 23, 2015)

herb mcclure said:


> Timber1: Glad you notice the results, of how positive controls burns are on young White Pines. It is just one more, of the benefits, control burning does for our mountain's  wild turkey's habitat.
> 
> I would like to know, if the larger trees you observed, which looked like beetle infestation were white pines, or some other type of pine. It has been several years over here, since I have notice much beetle infestation and then it was not in white pines; as much as it was for the Virginia Pine.
> 
> ...



The larger pines are either Short Leaf or Virginia. Small needles, small cones and forked trunks.


----------



## strutlife (Mar 23, 2015)

About 8 years ago, I was hunting a wma(gamelands in North Carolina). Alot of the "gamelands" have been transformed into pine forest. Not too many harwoods are left in that area. Reason, I guess money. Pine trees make money. Well, the particular day I was hunting, hens were sitting on nest. Already had laid eggs. What happened next made me angry. A controlled burn during nesting. Well, I left the "gamelands" to attend an opening of a new Veteran's clinic ceremony. Just so happens the Governor of NC is there. I was wearing camo and he asked if I had been turkey hunting to which I said yes. I asked if he turkey hunted to which he stated yes, that he loved turkey hunting.  I then went on to explain to him what had just taken place on the "gamelands." He then told me as soon as this ceremony was over, this issue would be taken care of. He gave me a look of great concern as to why this was happening. I'm sure it was taken care of because to the best of my knowledge, there was no more burning during this time.


----------



## emusmacker (Mar 23, 2015)

herb mcclure said:


> No I don't thank what you are saying would be the end of the wild turkey's problems. However, the predators are trouble, to wild turkeys; because I have experience seeing WILDCATS, HAWKS, COONS AND HOUSE CATS actual take poults.
> 
> Knowing myself, this is not the total problem, but one of the things that effect hens raising their young.
> 
> ...



I never one time said that predators didn't kill poults. I even said I don't know what the problem is, but I do know that killing every varmint on a piece of property ain't gonna solve the issue.  

I too have seen raccoons, opossums, and skunks kill baby turkeys.  heck we even lost a few baby bantam to a hawk this past yr, but you know what, he's only doing what he is supposed to do.  I didn't like it and it made me mad, but it happens.  And yes Mr Herb, you were advocating killing all varmints, and in that list you included hawks.  hate to tell but even dogs will kill poults, so does that mean dogs should be done away with?  I'm asking you.  I have talked with a few DNR officers about it.  There are a few that frequent this forum, maybe they will chime in, it would help if they did.  But sometimes, the DNR are already aware of problems and are researching ways to solve em.


----------



## Atlanta Dawg (Mar 23, 2015)

Just came off an outstanding opening day of Turkey Season !  Lot of hens-lot's of Gobbling-We saw 8 Gobblers-most were beyond 45 yards with the exception of one with what measured to be a 9.25 inch beard with 1.25 inch spurs !!!   Awesome !!!


----------



## beaulesye10 (Apr 7, 2015)

My dad has had a coyote and bobcat come into two different sets he has made this season within a week of each other.. Both were within ten yards of him. Talk about a shaken up old man!


----------



## Resica (Apr 9, 2015)

dark horse said:


> Look up Histomoniasis (Blackhead disease).  This disease has a 75% mortality rate in turkeys and weakens those that survive.  It is contracted from direct ingestion of contaminated chicken litter OR from earthworms that have ingested cecal worm eggs from chicken litter.  Cecal worm eggs can live in the soil for THREE years after chicken litter is put down.  Chicken litter has been widely used in Bulloch county now for 6-8 years and our turkey numbers are WAY down during that time period.  Our turkey numbers began to go down a few years after the litter became popular.   If the current trend continues turkeys will be rare or non-existent in a county that just recently had TONS.  It is very well known that turkeys CANNOT be raised in conjunction or around anywhere that domestic chickens are being raised as well.



http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=1719514&mode=2


----------



## Resica (Apr 9, 2015)

Lymphoproliferative Disease




http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=1721329&mode=2


----------



## TheTurkeySlayer (Apr 9, 2015)

dark horse said:


> Look up Histomoniasis (Blackhead disease).  This disease has a 75% mortality rate in turkeys and weakens those that survive.  It is contracted from direct ingestion of contaminated chicken litter OR from earthworms that have ingested cecal worm eggs from chicken litter.  Cecal worm eggs can live in the soil for THREE years after chicken litter is put down.  Chicken litter has been widely used in Bulloch county now for 6-8 years and our turkey numbers are WAY down during that time period.  Our turkey numbers began to go down a few years after the litter became popular.   If the current trend continues turkeys will be rare or non-existent in a county that just recently had TONS.  It is very well known that turkeys CANNOT be raised in conjunction or around anywhere that domestic chickens are being raised as well.



I agree 100% that diseases, such as Histomoniasis, can have a huge impact on the wild turkey population. However, I do believe that as long as the companies and farmers that run these houses follow the rules and regulations they are required to by law, there would not be an issue. Farmers are required to hold the litter for a specific time period after coming across the contracted disease.

Also, can you really say that disease is solely decreasing the population in your county when Bulloch is one of the top 50 fastest growing counties in the nation? Habitat loss is the culprit, along with the carrying capacity of the habitat reaching a maximum.


----------



## fullstrut (Apr 9, 2015)

Ga will be like Florida in the next decade or two if the population continues to grow. Leaving only big time landowners and hunting plantations to go hunt the Eastern Wild Turkey.  Growth of both human and business is the main culprit.


----------



## MFOSTER (Apr 9, 2015)

Mr herb I feel coons are more of a problem than most ,as a boy a lot of people had coon dogs now with everything centered around deer all land is leased and don't want any dogs on property and pouring out the feed and they are flourishing


----------

