# Defining Christianity by what it's not



## centerpin fan

I'm seeing more and more stuff like this:


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## centerpin fan

And another:


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## centerpin fan

And this, the "UNfundamentalists":


https://www.facebook.com/UnfundamentalistChristians/timeline?ref=page_internal


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> I'm seeing more and more stuff like this



It's put out to provoke people to anger. Don't fall for it.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> It's put out to provoke people to anger. Don't fall for it.



I don't think so.  I think they are genuinely trying to persuade people and marginalize traditional Christians who refuse to be swayed.


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## GunnSmokeer

Well, there are nominal Christians and then there are the ones who really walk the walk (and talk the talk, outside of those 90 minutes on Sunday mornings).
The same is true for Jews and Muslims, too.  
Most of them ignore or find some excuse not to implement all of what their holy teachings call for.



That being said, why are "Christians" the poster children for stupidity for believing in creation, miracles, etc?
Jews and Muslims believe in creation by God rather than a lucky accident of life generating from a lighting strike in some prehistoric swamp. Why doesn't the media promote THEM to speak about why they believe in God?
(The answer is the people who make such videos and news stories want the religious people to look foolish, and that's only okay to do to white Christians).


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## hummerpoo

Hitler did not define the German people.
Those who followed him (actively or submissively) defined the German People.


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## centerpin fan

Excellent analysis of the OP:

http://thefederalist.com/2015/09/08...uzzfeeds-viral-im-christian-but-im-not-video/


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## hummerpoo

centerpin fan said:


> Excellent analysis of the OP:
> 
> http://thefederalist.com/2015/09/08...uzzfeeds-viral-im-christian-but-im-not-video/



The article seems accurate in its assertions; but I have to admit that ,when I finished it, the thought that went scurrying through my fuzzy mind was "five specks, no planks".


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## centerpin fan

hummerpoo said:


> The article seems accurate in its assertions; but I have to admit that ,when I finished it, the thought that went scurrying through my fuzzy mind was "five specks, no planks".



As one guy noted on Twitter, this:



> The Christian faith really boils down to be nice, don't offend anyone.



... is plank-worthy.


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## hummerpoo

centerpin fan said:


> As one guy noted on Twitter, this:
> 
> 
> 
> ... is plank-worthy.





> "The Christian faith really boils down to be nice, don't offend anyone. That's what's behind the crucifixion of God and all those martyrs."



I know I'm probably being dense here, but isn't that another speck to be removed from the eye of the "I'm a Christian, But I'm not..." crowd?


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## gordon 2

"Defining Christianity by what it's not...."

Really!?

"The marginalization of traditional Christianity..."

Really!?

Why would this be important to the Jewish community? Spiritual reasons or political ones?


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## centerpin fan

gordon 2 said:


> "Defining Christianity by what it's not...."
> 
> Really!?
> 
> "The marginalization of traditional Christianity..."
> 
> Really!?
> 
> Why would this be important to the Jewish community? Spiritual reasons or political ones?



What does the Jewish community have to do with this?


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## centerpin fan

hummerpoo said:


> I know I'm probably being dense here, but isn't that another speck to be removed from the eye of the "I'm a Christian, But I'm not..." crowd?



The "I'm a Christian, But I'm not..." crowd did not make that statement.


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## hummerpoo

centerpin fan said:


> The "I'm a Christian, But I'm not..." crowd did not make that statement.



I know, but I took it that the speaker was being sarcastic; pointing out that Christ was not crucified and the Christian martyrs killed because they had been inoffensive, and thereby stating that the "I'm..., But...s" were wrong and need to correct there position, which claims that Christianity is an inoffensive religion (which I would characterize as a BIG speck).  I do agree with the speaker's underlying point that unbelievers are offended.  

Note that the parable is directed to believers interaction with "brothers", not unbelievers.  If the "I'm..., But...s" are judged as unbelievers they are to be left to God's judgment; but I don't see it that way.

Like I said, I may just dense in not seeing a plank in the tweet.


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## hobbs27

I didn't think much of it as I watched the first video a few days ago, but as it winds down ; notice all the hateful negative comments these people are making about ( True Christians).

These very people that claim to be accepting of all, and loving towards their neighbor are bigots of normal people.


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## centerpin fan

More commentary:

http://www.theblaze.com/contributio...t-christs-teachings-you-are-not-a-christian/?


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## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> I don't think so.  I think they are genuinely trying to persuade people and marginalize traditional Christians who refuse to be swayed.


These people are convinced that they can do, what they believe, the Gospel fails to do.


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## hummerpoo

centerpin fan said:


> More commentary:
> 
> http://www.theblaze.com/contributio...t-christs-teachings-you-are-not-a-christian/?



Finally a plank:

"There is a difference between emphasizing forgiveness for sins and basically keeping mum when you know even those in your direct congregation are flagrantly violating the ethical rules of the religion over and over again, and in fact, defend those violations as ethically sound."
(1 Cor. 5; 2 Cor. 2:1-11; Mat. 18:15-17)

Why did it have to come from "Inez", a self-professed agnostic Jew?


When the author says "But if he opens the door of his own volition and proclaims to the world that God approves of what he’s done, then we must respond by saying emphatically, 'no.' "  I believe that Jesus gave us clear instruction that we must first listen to, and act upon, Inez's comment.  Then take carefully considered (Spiritually inspired) action relating to the author's idea.

I see no reason to believe that God would look favorably upon, or bless, a man-made approach over His clear instruction.  We have plenty of history to support that thought.


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## rjcruiser

centerpin fan said:


> As one guy noted on Twitter, this:
> 
> 
> 
> ... is plank-worthy.





Yup...cause Jesus never offended anyone.


Christianity is under attack from the left.  I don't blame them though...they are like the Pharisees and Sadducees of old.  Their power is compromised by Christians...their conscience pricked...and they can drown out the little voice in their head telling them what they do is wrong by false reason.  Yet, they still have Christians preaching Christ...preaching the fruit of the Spirit.  That is what they can't get rid of.  So, what do they do?  They do what the Pharisees and Sadducees did.  They attack the person...they spread rumors of lunacy...and eventually, they kill.

Persecution in the NT only brought about a spread of the gospel...it separated the wheat from the chaff.  I have a feeling it will continue to do so here in the 21st century.


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## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> Yup...cause Jesus never offended anyone.


Exactly. Theirs is a Jesus that they can tolerate. They reject the Jesus that called a woman a dog, a man a devil, men serpents, a generation of vipers.

By their own words, they proclaim that the Christ is not Christ-like.

But men did not see Christ in the Christ.


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## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> Exactly. Theirs is a Jesus that they can tolerate. They reject the Jesus that called a woman a dog, a man a devil, men serpents, a generation of vipers.
> 
> By their own words, they proclaim that the Christ is not Christ-like.
> 
> But men did not see Christ in the Christ.




Here's the Jesus they want:


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## rjcruiser

centerpin fan said:


> Here's the Jesus they want:




Dude...do you watch every movie that comes out?


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## centerpin fan

rjcruiser said:


> Dude...do you watch every movie that comes out?



Pretty much.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Exactly. Theirs is a Jesus that they can tolerate. They reject the Jesus that called a woman a dog, a man a devil, men serpents, a generation of vipers.
> 
> By their own words, they proclaim that the Christ is not Christ-like.
> 
> But men did not see Christ in the Christ.



Some men did, didn't they? See Jesus as who he really is?


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## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> Yup...cause Jesus never offended anyone.
> 
> 
> Christianity is under attack from the left.  I don't blame them though...they are like the Pharisees and Sadducees of old.  Their power is compromised by Christians...their conscience pricked...and they can drown out the little voice in their head telling them what they do is wrong by false reason.  Yet, they still have Christians preaching Christ...preaching the fruit of the Spirit.  That is what they can't get rid of.  So, what do they do?  They do what the Pharisees and Sadducees did.  They attack the person...they spread rumors of lunacy...and eventually, they kill.
> 
> Persecution in the NT only brought about a spread of the gospel...it separated the wheat from the chaff.  I have a feeling it will continue to do so here in the 21st century.



You really think those girls in the video will eventually turn to killing Christians? Maybe that voice in their head is the Holy Spirit and eventually overcome their lunacy.
They are without excuse.


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## Artfuldodger

I think Christianity is also under attack by the Right. Not quite to the extreme as the Left but still under attack. 
We need to keep it somewhere in the middle. Somewhere between grace and works, free will and election, acceptance and judgement, our fruits and the Spirit's fruits, us and God, our plan and God's plan, and lunacy and sanity. Yelp, right down the middle.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> We need to keep it somewhere in the middle. Somewhere between grace and works, free will and election, acceptance and judgement, our fruits and the Spirit's fruits, us and God, our plan and God's plan, and lunacy and sanity. Yelp, right down the middle.


Between hot and cold?


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Some men did, didn't they? See Jesus as who he really is?


Everyone of the some.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Everyone of the some.



Then it's safe to describe Christianity for what it's not. I'm a Christian, but I'm not. Not a Christian by my works, not a Christian but by grace.
Not a Christian by my fruits but of the fruit of the Spirit. A man either gets the Spirit or he doesn't. A man either has salvation or he doesn't. 
A man is either hot or he is cold. 
Only everyone of the "some" will see Jesus as who he really is.


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## welderguy

It's all or nothing with following Jesus.Not pick and choose what you like and discard the rest.
Jesus said you can't serve two masters.(God and the world).It won't work.

Matthew 6:24
" No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

Sadly,many "Christians" are only in it for what they can get out of it,and they eventually go the way of Demas.

2 Timothy 4:10
" For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica;"

I believe in once saved always saved.But not,once on fire always on fire.We must be diligent to make our calling and election sure.

2 Peter 1:10
" Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"


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## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm a Christian, but I'm not. Not a Christian by my works, not a Christian but by grace.
> Not a Christian by my fruits but of the fruit of the Spirit.



For the record, none of the people in the OP are saying any of that.


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## Vagrant

Somebody needed to point all this out. I'm glad you guys did.


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## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> You really think those girls in the video will eventually turn to killing Christians?



Eventually, I believe killing Christians will be the norm.  It already is in certain parts of this world...and it will come here.



Vagrant said:


> Somebody needed to point all this out. I'm glad you guys did.


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## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> Eventually, I believe killing Christians will be the norm.  It already is in certain parts of this world...and it will come here.



Perhaps from other religious groups but I don't see it coming from the Left.  Those from the Left in the video actually consider themselves Christians.

I'm sure there are some isolated groups of so-called Christians who will kill and have killed in the name of religion.

I don't believe those in the video are a member of such a group. They might not be true Christians but they look to be more of the hipster, pacifist, type.

It's possible some of the more militant Christian Leftist might go for their propaganda and use that as a means of becoming martyrs.


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## StriperAddict

rjcruiser said:


> Eventually, I believe killing Christians will be the norm.  It already is in certain parts of this world...and it will come here.


Yes, either the worlds illusion of who Christ is gets brought to the light, or they reject Him fully by killing His kids ... the ultimate justice in their eyes.  
And the gray area of blind 'tolerance' to death at the core (missing the origin of sin, as in Adam all die)  is a dance the world plays with rapt soulish abandon.... but the Son of man waits, beckons, invites - to a far better dance.  

They don't know that their lives are worth a Risen former carpenter - from their own home town, plus the power of the nails and the wood.

A believer is spared the inhumanity of looking for a rules based right-ness when their eyes are open - when those rules do their job in slaying the child of Adam.  And God alone is the One to bring such dead men to life.


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## Israel

StriperAddict said:


> Yes, either the worlds illusion of who Christ is gets brought to the light, or they reject Him fully by killing His kids ... the ultimate justice in their eyes.
> And the gray area of blind 'tolerance' to death at the core (missing the origin of sin, as in Adam all die)  is a dance the world plays with rapt soulish abandon.... but the Son of man waits, beckons, invites - to a far better dance.
> 
> They don't know that their lives are worth a Risen former carpenter - from their own home town, plus the power of the nails and the wood.
> 
> A believer is spared the inhumanity of looking for a rules based right-ness when their eyes are open - when those rules do their job in slaying the child of Adam.  And God alone is the One to bring such dead men to life.




ahhhh...


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## Miguel Cervantes

centerpin fan said:


> I don't think so.  I think they are genuinely trying to persuade people and marginalize traditional Christians who refuse to be swayed.



Today's "traditional Christians" were yesterday's progressive troublemakers. Don't be so close minded.


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## centerpin fan

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Today's "traditional Christians" were yesterday's progressive troublemakers. Don't be so close minded.



Yesterday's progressive troublemakers weren't advocating for gay marriage.  

It's either the faith once delivered, or it's the faith that changes with the whims of popular culture.  I vote for the former.


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## Miguel Cervantes

centerpin fan said:


> Yesterday's progressive troublemakers weren't advocating for gay marriage.
> 
> It's either the faith once delivered, or it's the faith that changes with the whims of popular culture.  I vote for the former.



Sounds like "our sins back then weren't as bad as your sins now days are". It's as old as Christianity itself, and to think this generation of Christians are special in comparison is just plain naive.


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## centerpin fan

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Sounds like "our sins back then weren't as bad as your sins now days are". It's as old as Christianity itself, and to think this generation of Christians are special in comparison is just plain naive.





What on earth are you talking about?

I wasn't completely sure what you were trying to say in your previous post.  I'm even less sure now.


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## Miguel Cervantes

centerpin fan said:


> What on earth are you talking about?
> 
> I wasn't completely sure what you were trying to say in your previous post.  I'm even less sure now.



It used to be a cardinal sin to wear a dress, then dancing was of the devil and if you played cards you were going to burn for sure. 

Give it a decade or five, you'll be amazed at what is worse than what you are attempting to cope with now is.


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## centerpin fan

Miguel Cervantes said:


> It used to be a cardinal sin to wear a dress, then dancing was of the devil and if you played cards you were going to burn for sure.



Be serious.  

For every "anti-dancing" group in church history, there have been others who pushed back.  Homosexuality, OTOH, has never been accepted as normal _in the popular culture_, much less the church.




Miguel Cervantes said:


> Give it a decade or five, you'll be amazed at what is worse than what you are attempting to cope with now is.



I don't think it will take that long.  Homosexuality is the hill that many churches will die on.


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## Miguel Cervantes

centerpin fan said:


> Be serious.
> 
> For every "anti-dancing" group in church history, there have been others who pushed back.  Homosexuality, OTOH, has never been accepted as normal _in the popular culture_, much less the church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it will take that long.  Homosexuality is the hill that many churches will die on.



Herod was a flaming homosexual. To claim this is something new is the epitome of denial.


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## centerpin fan

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Herod was a flaming homosexual. To claim this is something new is the epitome of denial.



Homosexuality is not new.  What is new is the belief that homosexuality is not a sin.


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## Miguel Cervantes

centerpin fan said:


> Homosexuality is not new.  What is new is the belief that homosexuality is not a sin.



You honestly believe the Herodians believed they were living in sin?


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## centerpin fan

Miguel Cervantes said:


> You honestly believe the Herodians believed they were living in sin?



Lord, have mercy.  

There are pastors, priests, bishops who argue TODAY that homosexuality is a perfectly acceptable lifestyle FOR CHRISTIANS.

(Sorry for the all caps, but that's all I have available at the moment.)


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## Miguel Cervantes

centerpin fan said:


> Lord, have mercy.
> 
> There are pastors, priests, bishops who argue TODAY that homosexuality is a perfectly acceptable lifestyle FOR CHRISTIANS.
> 
> (Sorry for the all caps, but that's all I have available at the moment.)



And they certainly existed back then, otherwise there would have been no need for Paul.

It is not new, that is all I'm saying.


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## centerpin fan

Miguel Cervantes said:


> And they certainly existed back then, otherwise there would have been no need for Paul.
> 
> It is not new, that is all I'm saying.



There were no 1st century Christian bishops advocating for gay marriage.  It is a late-20tb century phenomenon.


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## Miguel Cervantes

centerpin fan said:


> There were no 1st century Christian bishops advocating for gay marriage.  It is a late-20tb century phenomenon.



The time period I am referencing there were no Christians of any sort. Christ was still alive and Christianity, per se, had not come of age yet. However there were still leaders of the church. 

Again, this is nothing new.


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## centerpin fan

Miguel Cervantes said:


> The time period I am referencing there were no Christians of any sort. Christ was still alive and Christianity, per se, had not come of age yet. However there were still leaders of the church.
> 
> Again, this is nothing new.



We're just gonna have to agree to disagree.


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## Miguel Cervantes

centerpin fan said:


> We're just gonna have to agree to disagree.



I'm fine with that.


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## Vagrant

My post was a bit unexplained rj, sorry about that.

What I meant to say was that somebody needed to point out that people are now trying to define Christianity by what it's not.


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## Artfuldodger

Vagrant said:


> My post was a bit unexplained rj, sorry about that.
> 
> What I meant to say was that somebody needed to point out that people are now trying to define Christianity by what it's not.



How would you define Christianity by what it is?


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## Artfuldodger

Starting with the Pentecost, is diversity a part of Christianity? Does Christianity hold any room for diverse groups of diverse cultures? Was the purpose of speaking in tongues to reach the various peoples of the world?
Does Christianity have room for the freewill believers, election believers, grace believers, works believers, futurists, Preterists, the pants wearing women, card playing men, mixed couple marriages, preaching women, teaching women, leader of the household women, metrosexual men, Christian Rap music listeners, Liberal Christians, Fundamentally Conservative right wing works based Christians, fat Christians, alcoholic Christians, divorced Christians, evolutionary believing Christians, round earth believing Christians, and last but not least the Firmament believing Christians?

Was the Pentecost/Holy Spirit able to reach all of the diverse groups and is Christianity able to allow for their existence?

And as Miguel Cervantes was alluding to, why has Christianity evolved from a more structured work based religion to a more liberal grace based religion over the years?
Women can now wear pants and men folk can now play cards and the fiddle. Things we think ridiculous used to send folks to He!!.
Sins haven't changed, just our definition of what those sins are.

God's grace hasn't changed, just our views on what sins God's grace covers.


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## Artfuldodger

StriperAddict said:


> Yes, either the worlds illusion of who Christ is gets brought to the light, or they reject Him fully by killing His kids ... the ultimate justice in their eyes.
> And the gray area of blind 'tolerance' to death at the core (missing the origin of sin, as in Adam all die)  is a dance the world plays with rapt soulish abandon.... but the Son of man waits, beckons, invites - to a far better dance.
> 
> They don't know that their lives are worth a Risen former carpenter - from their own home town, plus the power of the nails and the wood.
> 
> A believer is spared the inhumanity of looking for a rules based right-ness when their eyes are open - when those rules do their job in slaying the child of Adam.  And God alone is the One to bring such dead men to life.



Amen and thanks for sharing this "enlightenment."
I'm a bit hard headed or just slow but I'm slowly seeing who will kill God's children.
Personally for me it has been a very enlightening journey. Although I still suffer from an occasional flashback.


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## Israel

To the extent I understand Walter's post (StriperAddict), I perceive the christian is almost compelled (from man's side) to define himself by what he is not. But that is not the end of God's work.
The man says "I am now a christian, I Am Not ...a sinner, a fornicator, a smoker, drinker, dancer, homosexual, cusser, (or as in what I perceive in the OP to be saying) a bigoted conservative, a homophobe, a "christian" like the other christians you may meet, a narrow minded prune faced church goer...etc, etc."

The problem, or rather matter we encounter there is what Hummerpoo points out...specks, specks and more specks...of an unknowing blindness to our soul's deprivation as we "step" away from one another "stand not so close to me for I am holier than thou". 

In that stepping away, till revealed, comes the unknowing stepping away from Christ...with each confession of "those" we are not like. Yes, the appeal to the soul is strong, "you buttress yourself in your self definition...strengthen the "who you are" in your "who and what I am not".

But again, as Walter has said...we cannot escape the things we use to judge others to their lack as being the very same enforced upon us. "They are sooo blind..." we think we can say within ourselves without the Hearer of all discerning. And so we must be, will be, cannot avoid being shown our own blindness as the Hearer sees fit...till we are slain by those things. I am no more than any other, I am no better than any other, I am of no more value...than any other. I have spoken against the blood that makes our communion real, our common ground, true. "I" have cut myself off...no one did it, but "I".
Now, I perceive, here, in that place the blessedness of the work of the cross may be, as it must be, of necessity, of desperation (if you can), be begun to apprehended. "If"...I am no better, if I am of no more value, if I am not any more worthy than another...what use of "I"? "I" find no place on earth, in the world, where "I" is needed...what am I to do, where can "I" go?
Ahhh, provision is made for "I"...in death! "I" go where everything that accepts and has seen to have no particular value of itself is esteemed of great value. "I" go from where "I" am not needed...to the place "I" am desired, "I" go from saying "It is expedient for you that "I" go away..." that another may come.
The one who is manifest in our departure is all the world has ever needed, is the one whose healing is for all the self inflicted and catastrophic outcomes that have resulted in "I" trying to make a place for itself in the deception of self enforcing its necessity.
As Paul said, as Walter has said, "I am crucified...but I live...yet...not "I"." Here is where faith in, and of, the resurrection is manifest to a world into which a something is sent...for life.
The Christ, of whom we are now born, has won us away (in Walt's wonderful perception) from our dance of death. And death...what we once fled in all its myriad threatenings...gives way to a dance of life as we follow the lead of the Partner given us...to overcome.


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## Artfuldodger

Israel said:


> To the extent I understand Walter's post (StriperAddict), I perceive the christian is almost compelled (from man's side) to define himself by what he is not. But that is not the end of God's work.
> The man says "I am now a christian, I Am Not ...a sinner, a fornicator, a smoker, drinker, dancer, homosexual, cusser, (or as in what I perceive in the OP to be saying) a bigoted conservative, a homophobe, a "christian" like the other christians you may meet, a narrow minded prune faced church goer...etc, etc."
> 
> The problem, or rather matter we encounter there is what Hummerpoo points out...specks, specks and more specks...of an unknowing blindness to our soul's deprivation as we "step" away from one another "stand not so close to me for I am holier than thou".
> 
> In that stepping away, till revealed, comes the unknowing stepping away from Christ...with each confession of "those" we are not like. Yes, the appeal to the soul is strong, "you buttress yourself in your self definition...strengthen the "who you are" in your "who and what I am not".
> 
> But again, as Walter has said...we cannot escape the things we use to judge others to their lack as being the very same enforced upon us. "They are sooo blind..." we think we can say within ourselves without the Hearer of all discerning. And so we must be, will be, cannot avoid being shown our own blindness as the Hearer sees fit...till we are slain by those things. I am no more than any other, I am no better than any other, I am of no more value...than any other. I have spoken against the blood that makes our communion real, our common ground, true. "I" have cut myself off...no one did it, but "I".
> Now, I perceive, here, in that place the blessedness of the work of the cross may be, as it must be, of necessity, of desperation (if you can), be begun to apprehended. "If"...I am no better, if I am of no more value, if I am not any more worthy than another...what use of "I"? "I" find no place on earth, in the world, where "I" is needed...what am I to do, where can "I" go?
> Ahhh, provision is made for "I"...in death! "I" go where everything that accepts and has seen to have no particular value of itself is esteemed of great value. "I" go from where "I" am not needed...to the place "I" am desired, "I" go from saying "It is expedient for you that "I" go away..." that another may come.
> The one who is manifest in our departure is all the world has ever needed, is the one whose healing is for all the self inflicted and catastrophic outcomes that have resulted in "I" trying to make a place for itself in the deception of self enforcing its necessity.
> As Paul said, as Walter has said, "I am crucified...but I live...yet...not "I"." Here is where faith in, and of, the resurrection is manifest to a world into which a something is sent...for life.
> The Christ, of whom we are now born, has won us away (in Walt's wonderful perception) from our dance of death. And death...what we once fled in all its myriad threatenings...gives way to a dance of life as we follow the lead of the Partner given us...to overcome.



Amen and very well spoken. I've said it before that I don't always understand you but my enlightenment has lead me to see your vision clearly. Amen again.


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## Artfuldodger

When the discussion turned to how "what Christianity is not" has changed over the years, I'm reminded of how man has changed what the Sabbath is not.

Just in my lifetime what man can do on Sunday has changed. Once the Sunday meal was cooked on Saturday night. We weren't allowed to go to a restaurant or shopping on Sunday which was our Sabbath. Our Sabbath was a day of rest which required taking a nap or relaxing. Man wasn't allowed to go hunting or fishing on Sunday. The only Christians who could golf on Sunday went to the First Baptist Church or the other big churches in the city.
The Sabbath was made for man. It was to be a day of rest. The only work allowed was to get the  cart out of the ditch.

Now the Sabbath isn't as important. We aren't under the Old Covenant rules anymore. We don't have to keep the Sabbath holy nor rest.
We can work, fish, drink beer, play the Lottery, golf, work on our Hot Rods or tractors, attend races, or do gardening.
Even if we say we rest, our activities make others work such as eating out after Church or watching football and races.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong, just showing one thing that defines what a Christian is not that has changed over the years.

God hasn't changed just man's definition of what a Christian is not.
My mother wasn't allowed to wear pants or play any type of card game as a child. Those things defined what a Christian was not.

Maybe how we define the Legalism of Christianity has changed over the years.
We are always able to justify in our minds our definitions just as man did when blacks and whites couldn't marry. God didn't make the bluebird go with the redbird.


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## Madman

Israel said:


> To the extent I understand Walter's post (StriperAddict), I perceive the christian is almost compelled (from man's side) to define himself by what he is not. But that is not the end of God's work.
> The man says "I am now a christian, I Am Not ...a sinner, a fornicator, a smoker, drinker, dancer, homosexual, cusser, (or as in what I perceive in the OP to be saying) a bigoted conservative, a homophobe, a "christian" like the other christians you may meet, a narrow minded prune faced church goer...etc, etc."
> 
> The problem, or rather matter we encounter there is what Hummerpoo points out...specks, specks and more specks...of an unknowing blindness to our soul's deprivation as we "step" away from one another "stand not so close to me for I am holier than thou".
> 
> In that stepping away, till revealed, comes the unknowing stepping away from Christ...with each confession of "those" we are not like. Yes, the appeal to the soul is strong, "you buttress yourself in your self definition...strengthen the "who you are" in your "who and what I am not".
> 
> But again, as Walter has said...we cannot escape the things we use to judge others to their lack as being the very same enforced upon us. "They are sooo blind..." we think we can say within ourselves without the Hearer of all discerning. And so we must be, will be, cannot avoid being shown our own blindness as the Hearer sees fit...till we are slain by those things. I am no more than any other, I am no better than any other, I am of no more value...than any other. I have spoken against the blood that makes our communion real, our common ground, true. "I" have cut myself off...no one did it, but "I".
> Now, I perceive, here, in that place the blessedness of the work of the cross may be, as it must be, of necessity, of desperation (if you can), be begun to apprehended. "If"...I am no better, if I am of no more value, if I am not any more worthy than another...what use of "I"? "I" find no place on earth, in the world, where "I" is needed...what am I to do, where can "I" go?
> Ahhh, provision is made for "I"...in death! "I" go where everything that accepts and has seen to have no particular value of itself is esteemed of great value. "I" go from where "I" am not needed...to the place "I" am desired, "I" go from saying "It is expedient for you that "I" go away..." that another may come.
> The one who is manifest in our departure is all the world has ever needed, is the one whose healing is for all the self inflicted and catastrophic outcomes that have resulted in "I" trying to make a place for itself in the deception of self enforcing its necessity.
> As Paul said, as Walter has said, "I am crucified...but I live...yet...not "I"." Here is where faith in, and of, the resurrection is manifest to a world into which a something is sent...for life.
> The Christ, of whom we are now born, has won us away (in Walt's wonderful perception) from our dance of death. And death...what we once fled in all its myriad threatenings...gives way to a dance of life as we follow the lead of the Partner given us...to overcome.



I have not fully digested your response so I may be restating or misinterpreting.  I would like to add that Christianity is not about doing it is about being.  I am called to be better, I am called to be holy, I am being sanctified.  None of those and more are to be compare with anyone other than Christ.  

I am not holier than you, but I am holier than I was yesterday.  I am not better than you but I am a better man than I was yesterday.  My mark is not you, it is Christ and that is a measure that this flesh will never meet unless God views me through the blood of His Son.


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## gemcgrew

Madman said:


> I have not fully digested your response so I may be restating or misinterpreting.  I would like to add that Christianity is not about doing it is about being.  I am called to be better, I am called to be holy, I am being sanctified.  None of those and more are to be compare with anyone other than Christ.
> 
> I am not holier than you, but I am holier than I was yesterday.  I am not better than you but I am a better man than I was yesterday.  My mark is not you, it is Christ and that is a measure that this flesh will never meet unless God views me through the blood of His Son.


If God views you through the blood of His Son, how can you be holier today than yesterday?


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## Israel

gemcgrew said:


> If God views you through the blood of His Son, how can you be holier today than yesterday?




yes!


It's funny...yesterday I was "led"...thought to, was moved, was compelled...in short "did" a something I thought of from time to time. It had to do with seeing this sig line attributed to MrsRJCruiser:

"Comparison is the thief of joy"

I just wanted to kinda track it down...for I am repeatedly struck by its brilliance whenever it enters my eye, or mind. And just let someone know...wow...amazing to see.


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## Madman

gemcgrew said:


> If God views you through the blood of His Son, how can you be holier today than yesterday?



you are correct, I misspoke on that point.  I am holy.
Am I holier than you?

The point I was trying to make is that you are not the bench mark.  How I compare to you is irrelevant, the plumb line is Christ.


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## Madman

I see no need to attempt to convince people of what I am not.

The thinking of this world is so convoluted there is no need to try to convince anyone of anything because we are incapable of doing it.  Only the Holy Spirit can do that.  

The people in the video CP posted are anti people, they are anti civilization, they are anti redemption, they are anti sanctification, they are anti good.

The only thing they are for is feelings. 

It makes them feel good to be "all accepting" that is to anyone except those who disagree with their view.


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## gemcgrew

Madman said:


> you are correct, I misspoke on that point.  I am holy.
> Am I holier than you?


Brother, I do not see "holier" as possible. We are either complete in Christ(completely holy, perfect) or we are not. If you are in Christ and I am not, then you are holy... whereas I am not. 


Madman said:


> The point I was trying to make is that you are not the bench mark.  How I compare to you is irrelevant, the plumb line is Christ.


A very good point it is.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Brother, I do not see "holier" as possible. We are either complete in Christ(completely holy, perfect) or we are not. If you are in Christ and I am not, then you are holy... whereas I am not.
> 
> A very good point it is.



I do understand that the washing sanctified us. What is the process called or the progression where we try to become more like Jesus? 
Isn't there an on going process where the progression of the Holy Spirit produces more and more fruit as we become more and more like Jesus?


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> I do understand that the washing sanctified us. What is the process called or the progression where we try to become more like Jesus?
> Isn't there an on going process where the progression of the Holy Spirit produces more and more fruit as we become more and more like Jesus?



I love Jesus' illustration of this in John 13.
As He knelt to wash Peter's feet,Peter said you will never wash my feet.Jesus said if I wash you not,you have no part in me.To this Peter said Lord,not my feet only but my hands and my head also.

Vs.10: "Jesus saith to him ,he that is washed need not except to wash his feet;for he is clean every whit.And ye are clean,but not all."

I believe He's showing that those that have been washed in His blood are perfectly clean.But that in our daily walk there is a need for the filth of the world to be "rinsed" off from time to time.(sanctification)


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> I love Jesus' illustration of this in John 13.
> As He knelt to wash Peter's feet,Peter said you will never wash my feet.Jesus said if I wash you not,you have no part in me.To this Peter said Lord,not my feet only but my hands and my head also.
> 
> Vs.10: "Jesus saith to him ,he that is washed need not except to wash his feet;for he is clean every whit.And ye are clean,but not all."
> 
> I believe He's showing that those that have been washed in His blood are perfectly clean.But that in our daily walk there is a need for the filth of the world to be "rinsed" off from time to time.(sanctification)



"And you are clean, though not every one of you."
11For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."

I'm not sure Jesus was saying there is a part of us that isn't clean and that that part of us needs an ongoing washing. One has to look at verse 11 to see verse 10's meaning.

I'm sure we need  to constantly grow spiritually but I'm not sure what this ongoing process is called. I don't believe it is called sanctification.

If it is then that would mean the "washing" didn't work which I believe it does and did work and sanctify.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


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## Madman

Artfuldodger said:


> I do understand that the washing sanctified us. What is the process called or the progression where we try to become more like Jesus?
> Isn't there an on going process where the progression of the Holy Spirit produces more and more fruit as we become more and more like Jesus?



The reformed Ordo Salutis is as follows:

Election
The Gospel Call
Regeneration
Justification
Adoption
Sanctification
Perseverance
Glorification


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> I do understand that the washing sanctified us. What is the process called or the progression where we try to become more like Jesus?
> Isn't there an on going process where the progression of the Holy Spirit produces more and more fruit as we become more and more like Jesus?



I believe sanctification is an ongoing thing.Eph.5 shows how a husband sanctifies his wife by loving her and giving himself as a sacrifice for her.This is a daily ongoing thing.Paul then shows how Christ sanctifies His bride,the church,that He might present her to Himself without spot or wrinkle.


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Corinthians 6:11
> And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.



My King James bible says "but ye ARE washed,ye ARE sanctified,ye ARE justified..."


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## Artfuldodger

I thought sanctification was more of an act than a process. Such as a state of separation unto God or "to set apart."


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> My King James bible says "but ye ARE washed,ye ARE sanctified,ye ARE justified..."



"Were" meaning it has already happened and "are" meaning it is an on going process? If so it should read "you are being washed, you are being sanctified, you are being justified."

If so then how does one know when? I like "were" better.

Like this;
And all this describes what some of you were. But now you have had every stain washed off: now you have been set apart as holy: now you have been pronounced free from guilt; in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and through the Spirit of our God.

Either the washing in the blood works completely or it only halfway cleanses.  

Yet not every one of us is clean.


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## Artfuldodger

10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you (KJV)

Now if we were like that but through an ongoing process, we can and eventually will, inherit the kingdom.

Or,

We were like that but we were "washed, sanctified, and justified," past tense, we will inherit the kingdom.


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## NE GA Pappy

gemcgrew said:


> If God views you through the blood of His Son, how can you be holier today than yesterday?



maybe the word mature is what we are searching for in this case.  I am more mature today than yesterday.  I am justified and holy thru the sacrifice of Christ, but I am called to be mature.  That is the daily growth process in action.


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## Israel

I think, sometimes, as I see a changing view and perceive a change... that standing in a "new" spot always colors what is considered of before. In other words, I seem to have a sense of where I "was"...but can never truly be sure, because I am not there, now, in the sense I was "then". But then and now are mine to deal with, I am less than convinced the eternal seer of all is troubled by this, at all. 

It's kinda goofy, I know, and maybe that goofiness, silliness is all I am to know about "myself"...a thing that believes it can see itself clearly at any time, in any time, and think "I used to be that, but now I am this". Clearly.

I cannot help but wonder if Paul, when writing "I am what I am by the grace of God" had been compelled to stop trying to figure himself out and simply surrendered then to the grace he knew working at all times.

I think...I once "thought"..."progress in this new life must lead to a lessened sense of "needing to be saved".

I believe I shall have hard time not laughing all day. Or at the very least...right now.


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## gordon 2

Israel said:


> I think, sometimes, as I see a changing view and perceive a change... that standing in a "new" spot always colors what is considered of before. In other words, I seem to have a sense of where I "was"...but can never truly be sure, because I am not there, now, in the sense I was "then". But then and now are mine to deal with, I am less than convinced the eternal seer of all is troubled by this, at all.
> 
> It's kinda goofy, I know, and maybe that goofiness, silliness is all I am to know about "myself"...a thing that believes it can see itself clearly at any time, in any time, and think "I used to be that, but now I am this". Clearly.
> 
> I cannot help but wonder if Paul, when writing "I am what I am by the grace of God" had been compelled to stop trying to figure himself out and simply surrendered then to the grace he knew working at all times.
> 
> I think...I once "thought"..."progress in this new life must lead to a lessened sense of "needing to be saved".
> 
> I believe I shall have hard time not laughing all day. Or at the very least...right now.



On Paul the Jew, the roman, the Pharisee, the apostle had he been a prize fighter he would have feared no man, himself included. He was good in the corners, his back against the ropes
 and he knew it. He had good trainers. He was all courage, hope and grit.


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## Israel

gordon 2 said:


> On Paul the Jew, the roman, the Pharisee, the apostle had he been a prize fighter he would have feared no man, himself included. He was good in the corners, his back against the ropes
> and he knew it. He had good trainers. He was all courage, hope and grit.



The one who wrote: Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.


Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

Must have been made very aware in whom his strength was found, on whom his strength relied, and how this strength was apprehended. In profound weakness toward his brothers.

"These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you...

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

Of such goes past the imaginations to the true.
Yes, true grit.


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## StriperAddict

True grit for sure.

I am thinking much lately that our life is not in taking out the measuring stick of the sword of the law that kills, but by the One who took us slain and buried dead folk and raised us up with Him into the rest He promised.  What say we of a one time offering? Did it do all it was meant to? Or do we stand in daily labors like the old priesthood trying to 'get' what we already have by grace through faith?

If Christianity is defined by what it's not, then it's the cross that must needs be the true event sent on that day of our found sin and shame and death -- by the law which slayed him, to that True God-Man to come and freely make us new creations.  Just think how wonderful and humbling it is that He gave of His Spirit (true grit of His person) for free.  

The Man who's grit matters most is our very life. And the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made us free of the law of sin and death.


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## Artfuldodger

StriperAddict said:


> True grit for sure.
> 
> I am thinking much lately that our life is not in taking out the measuring stick of the sword of the law that kills, but by the One who took us slain and buried dead folk and raised us up with Him into the rest He promised.  What say we of a one time offering? Did it do all it was meant to? Or do we stand in daily labors like the old priesthood trying to 'get' what we already have by grace through faith?
> 
> If Christianity is defined by what it's not, then it's the cross that must needs be the true event sent on that day of our found sin and shame and death -- by the law which slayed him, to that True God-Man to come and freely make us new creations.  Just think how wonderful and humbling it is that He gave of His Spirit (true grit of His person) for free.
> 
> The Man who's grit matters most is our very life. And the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made us free of the law of sin and death.



Amen, what better way to describe what Christianity is not.
Just describe what it is.


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