# Population



## PWalls (Mar 15, 2005)

Since Andy has one going on in the hunting forum about population and its affect on hunting, let's get one going here about the spiritual aspect of the population.

From reading Reylamb's posts in the other thread, it is not hard to deduce that he is in favor of the population growing to what it will be (what God intends) without any interference by man. Rey, is that correct?

What is everyone else's views? What scripture is there to back it up?

I can see Andy's views, but my heart is telling me that Rey is also correct.

Just curious.


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## Jeff Phillips (Mar 15, 2005)

http://www.biblebelievers.com/EarthDay1996.html

Some facts from 1996!


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## GeauxLSU (Mar 15, 2005)

God has given us dominion and stewardship.  Growing the population of this earth is destroying the very gift (Garden of Eden) he gave us to enjoy.  There is absolutely  no reason nor command for it.  I've never met a single soul who had a large family because "God commanded" them to.  Nobody likes to hear this but face it, we do it out of greed and selfishness.  I have ONE child.  The love I have for him is amazing and it makes me want 10 more.  I mean, family is the most wonderful thing in the world.  To a certain degree, it's like a drug.  You can NOT get enough!  (assuming you enjoy your family which presumably most do) .  If I did have 10 kids, that is not resonsible for a variety of reason, not just environmental (me and my wife's age for example).   We are selfish self centered creatures.   What is going to make someone more angry than "talking about my family!"     Not much.  That's why people take this topic so personally.  They view it as an afront.   They can't step back for a minute and simply view it as what it is, a mathematical fact.  No, all of us collectively reading this thread can not 'fix' the problem.  But we can do one thing, we can not add to it and we can at least attempt to make sure others realize the consequences of their actions.  If you have 10 kids today.  Wonderful.  Enjoy them!  They are amazing!  
I am the fifth of 5 children.  We are all married (so 10 people total).  Those 10 people have created another 10 kids and everyone is 'done'.  Total population growth for my siblings = zero.  Not by design by any means.  
If I want more children (and I do, who wouldn't), I will adopt.  

Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## PWalls (Mar 15, 2005)

Ok Phil, help me here then since I think you are a Catholic.

What about birth control? Is the Catholic church against birth control? If so, how can a Catholic family have only one child without practicing some form of birth control (short of medical problems that is). Reason I ask, is I have Catholic relatives that pop young'uns out like Pez down in Brunswick because they say the church doesn't believe in birth control.

Is there scriptural evidence to support a no holds barred approach to having children. Have sex whenever you want to with your wife and the Lord will bless you as he wants to?

Is there scriptural evidence to support a population control/limit?


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## Michael Lee (Mar 15, 2005)

PWalls said:
			
		

> Reason I ask, is I have Catholic relatives that pop young'uns out like Pez down in Brunswick because they say the church doesn't believe in birth control.



Sorry to get off topic but that is just funny 

ML


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## PWalls (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh, one other thing to put my personal situation in perspective.

I have three children. I had two (one boy and one girl). Before I had a chance to get a vasectomy, my wife's birth control caused her some hormonal problems, she tried another prescription, I looked at her funny and sham, bam, thank you maa'm, I have another son.

Justin (my youngest) means more to me than my life itself. I have *ZERO* regrets about having my third child. I truly believed that it was God's will to have him based on me and the wife's opinions about having a third child (didn't want one) and the methods we were using to prevent it (boy we thought we were safe).

Anyway, just a little background information on the reason for the thread.


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## PWalls (Mar 15, 2005)

Michael Lee said:
			
		

> Sorry to get off topic but that is just funny
> 
> ML



Michael, if you even think about ever telling my mother I said that about her side of the family, you will do well to remember I know where you hunt.


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## Junebug (Mar 15, 2005)

*I've asked this very question recently; what would God have us do?*

My wife and I have been married 8 years and as of yet have no children.  If we do chose to have them someday, we've decided upon adoption.  Neither of us see the necessity of creating more babies when there are already so many that need adoptive parents, good homes, and upbringing.  Likewise neither of us seem to have a strong "physiological urge" (like some others we know) to procreate or conceive our own children.  

I sometimes feel that there is such pressure from family or friends to have/make babies that the parents-to-be don't consider whether THEY really want them or not.


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## Michael Lee (Mar 15, 2005)

PWalls said:
			
		

> Michael, if you even think about ever telling my mother I said that about her side of the family, you will do well to remember I know where you hunt.



No worries, what happens on Woody's, stays on Woody's  

ML


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## GeauxLSU (Mar 15, 2005)

PW,
The Catholic church's stance on mechanical or chemical birth control is that it should not be used.  They do NOT say 'have all the sex you want and see what happens'.  Abstinence and the timing method are perfectly acceptable in the church's eyes.  NOTHING is perfect.  If you have children whether trying or not, no question they are gifts from God and should be treasured appropriately whether #1 or #10.  
My only point is, there is no scripture that says "have all the children you can have".  There is scripture that says procreate and there is scripture that clearly tells us of our dominion and stewardship over the earth and it's inhabitants.  2000 plus years later, we can still have children without destroying the earth.  
So, my question is, is there ANY limit to what is responsible (Scripturally or otherwise) to the number of children we should have?  If you say no, then you should also support the African families who have 10 children and to US it appears they shouldn't.  I would say that is COMPLETELY an arbitrary and close minded one-sided view.  Either you should have you can physically have (God given) or you should make a consicous decision about the number you should have and realize the mathematical implications of that number on the Garden of Eden.  
Yes - the Pez reference is funny.    
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Cward (Mar 15, 2005)

Junebug said:
			
		

> My wife and I have been married 8 years and as of yet have no children.  If we do chose to have them someday, we've decided upon adoption.  Neither of us see the necessity of creating more babies when there are already so many that need adoptive parents, good homes, and upbringing.  Likewise neither of us seem to have a strong "physiological urge" (like some others we know) to procreate or conceive our own children.
> 
> I sometimes feel that there is such pressure from family or friends to have/make babies that the parents-to-be don't consider whether THEY really want them or not.


NAIL ON THE HEAD!!!!


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## PWalls (Mar 15, 2005)

That's a hard question Phil. I don't know the answer. Part of me says, yes, do what you want, how often you want to do it and let the Lord bless you as he wills. However, the human part of me sees all those children you are talking about and thinks the other part of me is crazy.


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## duckbill (Mar 15, 2005)

Touchy subject, really.  I feel that any attempt at controlling population is like "playing God".  I don't feel it is our responsibility.  God has a plan and we should trust it.  As Christians we should seek God's will for our lives.  Unfortunately, a huge portion of society do not follow God's guidelines.  There are some cultures in htis country that practice and support popping out as many as you can.  There are some white folks who are threatened byt he fact that minorities are reporducing at alarming rates and we are not.  I personally feel we can't worry about it.  Cancer, aids, weather disasters, planes flying into buildings and things of this sort certainly make a big dent in the population.   The more population the bigger the risk of diseases and such.
If everybody was saved and followed God's will, we'd have the perfect population, BUT we can't have that.  In Heaven we wll have the perfect population  .


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## GeauxLSU (Mar 15, 2005)

Abortion is the biggest current limiting factor of the U.S. population.  So.......  How does that factor in?  
Once again, RESPONSIBILITY.  God has given us (unlike animals) the ability to reason and understand the consequences of our actions.  Yet for some reason, we turn that switch off.  Hormones and greed are powerful things.    
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## duckbill (Mar 15, 2005)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Abortion is the biggest current limiting factor of the U.S. population.  So.......  How does that factor in?




I forgot about that one.


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## Cward (Mar 15, 2005)

Gaswamp said:
			
		

> Do you realize the whole population of the earth could live in Texas?


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## PWalls (Mar 15, 2005)

duckbill said:
			
		

> If everybody was saved and followed God's will, we'd have the perfect population, BUT we can't have that.  In Heaven we wll have the perfect population  .



That is a really good answer and touches on the main problem.

What would the population of this world be if there were no children born because of sinful acts. Sex before marriage, rape, multiple divorces/marriages.

If we obeyed God's word and did what we are supposed to do (sex within marriage between one man /woman), then free procreation (or no worries on population) would truly be by God's design and under his authority. But, because of those acts above we have even more children.


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## Junebug (Mar 15, 2005)

I often wonder whether we DON'T HAVE kids because of selfish reasons or whether we DO HAVE kids because of selfish reasons.


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## GeauxLSU (Mar 15, 2005)

Gaswamp said:
			
		

> Do you realize the whole population of the earth could live in Texas?


Ah fun with numbers....
Current world population of 6.5 Billion.
Land area of Texas 261,914 square miles or 167,624,960 acres or....
39 people per acre!  Yeah man that's LIVING!  
You know what?  If my house was 6.5 billion stories high, we could all live in my house.    
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## GeauxLSU (Mar 15, 2005)

Junebug said:
			
		

> I often wonder whether we DON'T HAVE kids because of selfish reasons or whether we DO HAVE kids because of selfish reasons.


Both.  And sometimes the same person does both things in the course of their lives, depending on the time of their life.  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## GeauxLSU (Mar 15, 2005)

duckbill said:
			
		

> I forgot about that one.


Isn't that amazing how we've just come to 'accept' it?  Doesn't hardly get a thought unless being specifically discussed.    
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## PWalls (Mar 15, 2005)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Isn't that amazing how we've just come to 'accept' it?  Doesn't hardly get a thought unless being specifically discussed.
> Hunt/fish safely,
> Phil



I don't accept it or condone it at all.

However, I do think that is is often used as a solution to the problems caused from a sinful decision (premarital sex, rape, etc.)

It's man trying to "fix" a problem that man shouldn't have created.


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## reylamb (Mar 15, 2005)

So Phil, when are you putting on the addition???????????????

I do nt have the time to post on this today, more tomorrow...


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## duckbill (Mar 15, 2005)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Isn't that amazing how we've just come to 'accept' it?  Doesn't hardly get a thought unless being specifically discussed.
> Hunt/fish safely,
> Phil



Phil, Unfortunately society has embraced abortion as a form of birth control.  It is sad, but slowly the society we live in today is de-humanizing everything.  An unborn child is a discardable tissue.  Sex, which is a wonderful gift from God to be shared by a husband and wife, is portrayed as an act or an object to be obtained.  The opposite sex has been reduced to a target or objective.  Partnerships and relationships are formed based on how they can "benefit from that person".  Churches concentrate more on how they can entertain people and increase their numbers.  Folks looking for a church, generally ask "what do you have for me"(programs, teen activities, socials, etc), making it more of an institution thna a "House of God".
All of these examples are the de-humanizing occuring right before our eyes.
The bad thing is this de-humanized society is growing.  Maybe the Lord will come take us home before it gets too bad.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 15, 2005)

*This is a very important subject today.*

It is very important to demographists in universities, governments, sociologists, religious groups etc.

Current assessment on world population is that is will peek a 9billion and then decline. Polulations in the west are declining because birth rates are declining. They are expected to decline even more because of properity and women don't have to be mothers, they have other choices in modern societies and kids just cost a heck of a lot in modern countries. US estimates 200 thousand out of pocket per child not counting college and university expences. Also, earnings  lost because by being parents, mothers especially is  enormous.


Religious groups have far more children than secular groups. For example Mormons in Utah have far more children, double the amount than the secular folks of the state of New Hamshire. This is very important for governments because it means that religious groups of the future will have a greater say in politics than secular groups, simply because of demographics and the extra demands on governments.  Fundamentalist groups of all strips are/will be of greater political and social importance in western societies. 

As Asian populations get more prosperous, they will have decreasing birth rates. This in the case now in the mid east, Iran is an example to note. The jump from agrarian economies to modern ones just shatters birth rates all over the world.

Now for the clincher. PHIL!!!! Guess who started this tendency of decreasing population, lower birth rates, women and couples "choosing not to have families"??? Guess who is the prototype??? Yes the secular republic to the south.....





of England and the Netherlands: That is FRANCE! YES PHIL it all started with France!!!! "Plus ca change plus c'est la meme chose!"


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Mar 15, 2005)

What duckbill said!


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## Ga-Spur (Mar 15, 2005)

39 people to the acre. Where are you going to grow the corn?Where are you going to put the septic tanks? Water? I don't think so.


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## GeauxLSU (Mar 15, 2005)

PWalls said:
			
		

> I don't accept it or condone it at all.
> However, I do think that is is often used as a solution to the problems caused from a sinful decision (premarital sex, rape, etc.)
> It's man trying to "fix" a problem that man shouldn't have created.


PW,
Did NOT mean to imply you accepted or condoned it in any way!  Just meant how it's so commonplace it's not considered for a variety of subjects, like this one.  
I agree completely with your assesment of it's existence! 
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## GeauxLSU (Mar 15, 2005)

reylamb said:
			
		

> So Phil, when are you putting on the addition???????????????


Are you talking about an adopted child?  Not sure when or if.  Did get a packet of info in the mail today I was waiting on.  Obviously about as big a decision you can make.  We'll see....
If you're literally talking about an addition to the house to accomodate a new arrival.  That won't happen.  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## GeauxLSU (Mar 15, 2005)

*Exactly!*



			
				Gaswamp said:
			
		

> So 39 per acre is too much in your book.  What about New York city?  What's the population per acre there?


EXACTLY!  40.5 per acre. Been there twice.  Once was enough.  What's the per acre saturation of Cordele?  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## GeauxLSU (Mar 15, 2005)

Very good (sad but good!    ) post indeed duckbill!  
Gordon, point of clarification.  Populations are not decreasing, the rate of INCREASE is slowing in some pockets around the globe.  But an increase is still an increase. There are plenty of secular societies with exploding birth rates.  Short sightedness is not monopolized by any religious belief or lack thereof.  

(Finally, if France is leading the way towards smaller families, I'm going to talk to my wife tonight about having 5 more kids!   ) 

Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## duckbill (Mar 15, 2005)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> (sad but good!    )



Sorry Phil,  didn't mean to bum you out  

It was a little negative.  I have a tendency to get "down" on society a bit.


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## Flash (Mar 15, 2005)

Psalm 127: 3-5  seems to say having a large family is a good thing.


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## GeauxLSU (Mar 15, 2005)

Flash said:
			
		

> Psalm 127: 3-5  seems to say having a large family is a good thing.


Sounds to me, it's saying, if they are male.  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Flash (Mar 15, 2005)

I'm looking at the King James Version. Verse 3 and 4 have "children", no gender is mentioned. 

 What does yours say?


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## gordon 2 (Mar 16, 2005)

Phil I related what my understanding of current studies of population demographics are stating. True there is still a increase in population world wide as you state, but my point was that birth rates will decrease within the next 50 yrs to the point that there will be no increase,but a significant decrease. This will happen mainly due to reduced birth rates world wide.

These are not my numbers but the projections of demographists world wide. The implications on economies are enormous.

Many of the secular states you mention are maintaining there numbers by immigration, not internal birth rate.

Therefore I state again world polulation according to experts are said to peak to 9billion at some point in the future and then decrease because of declining birth rates.  Or perhaps more  put simply when the vast majority of the people on earth no longer have to "farm" to earn their daily bread then ma"s and pa"s family will just be smaller just as it has and is happening now where agrarian societies disapear to make way for modern societies.

Or in modern societies women don't have to be mothers, they can plan time and number of births. The oppertunities to women in modern and future societies will be enormous and 100 fold that of our grandmothers.


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## GeauxLSU (Mar 16, 2005)

Flash said:
			
		

> I'm looking at the King James Version. Verse 3 and 4 have "children", no gender is mentioned.
> 
> What does yours say?


Flash,
I just went to Biblegateway and NIV was the default.  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil
Psalm 127:3-5 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


3 Sons are a heritage from the LORD , 

    children a reward from him. 

    4 Like arrows in the hands of a warrior 

    are sons born in one's youth. 

    5 Blessed is the man 

    whose quiver is full of them. 

    They will not be put to shame 

    when they contend with their enemies in the gate.


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## GeauxLSU (Mar 16, 2005)

reylamb said:
			
		

> So Phil, when are you putting on the addition???????????????


Duh!  I just realized you were talking about my 6.5 billion story house.  
I called the county.  I can't get a zoning variance!     
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## reylamb (Mar 16, 2005)

Silly zoning laws!!!!!

Notice, in all of the scriptures quoted above relating to children and families, the plural word children is used rather than the singular word child.  If you go to the original Greek and Hebrew translations you will find in obth cases the plural forms were used, meaning more than one child.  The only time it specifically mentions child is when dealing with discipline.  I have to finish reviewing the replies thus far, and if I get that silly transmitter fixed tomorrow, more to come..........


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## Flash (Mar 16, 2005)

*Kjv*

3: Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

4: As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.

5: Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate. 


  On a side note, I heard one pastor say 'If we didn't have abortions, think of how many workers would be contributing to social security'.


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## GeauxLSU (Mar 16, 2005)

I will not dispute that scripture tells us to have children.  That is clear.  The original question is (I think), how many?  Is there such a thing as too much?  
If every couple had two children, we'd still be having 'children' and NOT destroying the (one time) paradise He gave us to care for.  
Swamp, what book?    
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## reylamb (Mar 17, 2005)

How many specifically?  Unknown, there is no specific mention i Scripture, but we can infer and deduce more than one, but a maximum, we can not.  In all cases the plural of the word is used, so we know it is more than one.  How many?  Everyone will have to seek God's wisdom and guidance on that issue as it pertains specifically to them.  I will say this, a family on an annual income of under 40k should not be having a bunch of children.  Not only are we told to have children and that children are a blessing from God, we are also taught to be fiscally responbile with our finances.  Having more children than we can feed, clothe, whatever is not fiscally responsibile.  We must put everything within Biblical context of all Scriptures, unless we have a specific wording tellling us otherwise.  For example, we know there is only one way to be saved as the Bible tells us "there is o other name given under Scripture, whereby men must be saved."  there is no alternative.  We do not have in Scripture any reference that says, thour shalt have 6 children.

Ultimately, it is a personal decision.  Do I feel those tha have no children or only one are sinning against God?  No, I do not.  We do not see anywhere in Scripture that Paul had children, yet God used him and blessed him greatly.  Ditto that with Peter, although the historical records are rather incomplete.  We can surmise Paul never had children as we know he was not married, although it is possible that Peter did since he was married.


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## Hunting Teacher (Mar 17, 2005)

Some of the posts here bother me a little. I get the feeling that some feel we are a parasite on this world that needs to either be controlled or must find a way to control ourselves.
We were God's greatest creation! His whole purpose for creating us was that nothing else in creation was capable of glorifying Him in the way He deserves to be glorified. That IS our purpose on this planet.
Why wouldn't God want as many humans here as possible. Each soul represents another opportunity for Him to be glorified through that individual or the way one of His own treat, care about, take care of that individual. 

I am assuming those of you saying "we" are destroying this planet by having children don't think God is omnipotent. Did He not forsee all this before Adam ever set foot on earth?  Is His plan not being carried out to it's fruition however He may choose to do it? 

Since I have three children of my own, that's three times the opportunity to be assured that the love of God will be carried on into the next generation. 

I agree wholeheartedly with what has been posted here about population and the consequences of sin. The way God origionally created the world was to be in perfect harmony in every way. The fall of man changed all that. But God KNEW that was going to happen.

 It may be that we are going to be headed for some terrible times in the future. If so, I hardly think we need to try and blame it on people with large families. Either you believe God gave us each child for his purposes or you don't. Either He is totally in control or everything is random chance.
How many of you really believe we are going to change one single part of God's design for our world because we had a large family.

That being said, I certainly think God expects us to be responsible for our children, no matter how many we have.

Remember the post on the other thread got on this because people were worried about where they were going to hunt in the future. Having fewer kids to assure hunting room is hardly what I would consider to be God's will for our life.

Is God most concerned about whether I have a place to hunt in the future, or is He most interested in how much I'm concerned with the children, family,  people (however many there my be) He chooses to put in my path on this earth?
To Him be the glory!
Teach


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## PWalls (Mar 18, 2005)

I have to agree with HuntTeach on this one. He makes sense to me on this issue.

So does Rey.

Are people having too many children? I think there is a possibility, yes.

Has God accounted for it with his perfect plan? Yes.

Maybe God's plan is to have 39 people per acre over the entire globe and then send his Son down with trumpets blazing. I don't know, but I have to have faith in the Lord and His plan.


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## mockingbird (Mar 20, 2005)

Beautifully put, Teach. I think God will guide each person in this matter, if we ask for his help. And his answer won't be the same for each man and woman. He will tell some to have 4 children (perhaps the fourth child will find a cure for cancer or help bring about world peace). He will tell some to have two or one-- and some others to have none. Some he will tell to adopt or foster children who have no mother or father.
Although us having adequate hunting land is probably not that high on God's priority list, isn't it wonderful that through the silliness of deer hunting we're grappling with life's tougher issues? I think God is secretly delighted!


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## GeauxLSU (Mar 20, 2005)

As long as we're not making His plan fit OUR desires.  
I was  reading 1 Peter last night.   There are as you may know, verses dealing with how slaves should be submissive and respectful.  
So.... should we still have slavery?  
I only pick that one passage because I just happen to read it last night but my point is, we seem to pick the passages we feel are relevant and make them fit our desires and disregard the ones we don't like as being 'no longer relevant today'.    
When the bible was written the earth was sparesly populated.  It no longer is and we are wiping out species and resources and eventually, if uncurtailed, the Garden of Eden will be gone (largely is already I suppose).  
Someone got upset when they said "it sounds like you are referring to human population growth as a cancer".  
Cancer is defined as something that grows at an exponential rate eventually killing it's host.  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Flash (Mar 20, 2005)

Flash said:
			
		

> 5: Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them:




 As with bow hunting, our quivers vary in size.

 Maybe GOD is saying we are happy when we have what we are able to care for. One family may only be able to have one, others seven.


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