# Luke 8 The parable of the sower?



## Bob2010 (Oct 9, 2014)

So I am thorny soil these days. Sometimes I'm good soil. Which soil are you? Honestly? Do the soils other than good soil go to heaven? Can anyone be good soil all the time?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 9, 2014)

That parable has always confused me. It makes me think of total depravity, no free-will, and works based salvation.

I don't believe any of those three so there lies the confusion.
What is most confusing is someone is saved by grace alone yet we need proof by his fruit. Why is this proof by fruit necessary is the person was saved by grace alone?


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## mtnwoman (Oct 9, 2014)

I know no one who is not dirty everyday, God knew that and gave us Jesus to wash away that dirt. If any of us could do it we wouldn't have needed Jesus.

I don't think this verse means either/or it means both. If I smoke myself to death, does that mean I won't go to heaven? No, it means I have paid the consequences of my fleshly action in the flesh...just sayin'.

Galatians 6:8.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 9, 2014)

What if the sower was the Father, the Seed was the Son ( word of God) , and the soil was the Jew....what found good seed was the beginning of the New Covenant, as in the Apostles and the Kingdom began from there and continue s to grow today?


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## formula1 (Oct 9, 2014)

*Re:*

You got to receive the Word, and grow deep lasting roots (not temporary Joy), then fight that fight through life's landmines.  If you do all three, it is the well received message of the Gospel  where one  hears, commits to growing roots, and decides to focus on Christ above all circumstances!  One can bear fruit because the works of God can work through that kind of commitment and relationship.  There is a huge difference between you working and God working through you, IMHO!

If you find yourself as one or the other that's great.  You are aware of what you need to get better at! So get better!  Continue, like Paul, to die daily.  It's your only hope!


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## hawglips (Oct 9, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> That parable has always confused me. It makes me think of total depravity, no free-will, and works based salvation.
> 
> I don't believe any of those three so there lies the confusion.
> What is most confusing is someone is saved by grace alone yet we need proof by his fruit. Why is this proof by fruit necessary is the person was saved by grace alone?



Because Christ taught that it was necessary.   I think the confusion comes because few are willing to enter in at the strait gate and walk the narrow way that he showed us, and try to look for solutions out in the broad way instead.


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## Bob2010 (Oct 9, 2014)

Our study last night included this. We did talk about not following the crowd by taking the easy route. We also talked about how joy coming from God is long lasting and earthly joy is not. Obviously the goal is to have deep roots in good soil. If you are in the other categories is your salvation at risk? Can someone stay all the time in the good soil category?


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## Bob2010 (Oct 9, 2014)

formula1 said:


> You got to receive the Word, and grow deep lasting roots (not temporary Joy), then fight that fight through life's landmines.  If you do all three, it is the well received message of the Gospel  where one  hears, commits to growing roots, and decides to focus on Christ above all circumstances!  One can bear fruit because the works of God can work through that kind of commitment and relationship.  There is a huge difference between you working and God working through you, IMHO!
> 
> If you find yourself as one or the other that's great.  You are aware of what you need to get better at! So get better!  Continue, like Paul, to die daily.  It's your only hope!



I like this and I am striving to stop worrying so much about work and money. Thorns for sure. This study we are doing has me thinking. The guy said if you were on an island with a bible. No one had ever influenced your beliefs. Church, pastors, family or no one teaching you about the gospel.  Would the things we teach and do at church be biblical?  For instance baptism.  Bible says repent and be baptized.  All the committing your self to the Lord and rituals we do in church around baptism are not really in the Bible.  Alot of the things we are taught in church are tradition or following what's easy. He is not saying those things are wrong. Some of the JW beliefs are not biblical. Those people are influenced to believe what is easy or what they are taught.  Well that happens at my baptist church too. We are guilty of the same thing. So I turn back to trying to really understand his words in the bible. Often that leads to more questions than answers.  At the same time I can't help but think that's by design.  Certainly keeps me coming back for more.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 9, 2014)

Matthew
13 That day Jesus went out of the house and was sitting by the sea. 2 And large crowds gathered to Him, so He got into a boat and sat down, and the whole crowd was standing on the beach.

3 And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. 5 Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. 6 But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7 Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. 8 And others fell on the good soil and *yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. 9 He who has ears, let him hear.”

An Explanation

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,


‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;

15 
For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they would see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart and return,
And I would heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

The Sower Explained

18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 9, 2014)

Isn't it sorta like "My sheep hear my voice." If depraved or at least your ears aren't pricked, You won't hear?

‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
(who is this talking about?)

17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Somehow though it appears to be addressed to the disciples having some inside information.
Otherwise we all call ourselves Christians but all have different beliefs. It's like some things are still a mystery. Many prophets and righteous men desired to see what the disciples saw. These were not lost people. I don't consider myself lost yet I don't fully understand. The prophets and righteous men didn't fully understand yet the disciples see and heard. They were blessed.
His own disciples had to ask of their meaning.
Could it be some parables were just for the disciples to understand?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 9, 2014)

hawglips said:


> Because Christ taught that it was necessary.   I think the confusion comes because few are willing to enter in at the strait gate and walk the narrow way that he showed us, and try to look for solutions out in the broad way instead.



I believe this fruit is produced by the Holy Spirit in us. I do agree that this fruit is necessary and needed as proof. If someone believes they are saved but don't produce fruit then it can only mean God didn't elect them and they had some weird feeling that they thought was a conversion. They believed in Jesus before they were called and thus their salvation didn't take. Grace is from God and God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. There is nothing you can do without God to produce fruit. It would be futile to believe it's something you can do. So for me or you to produce fruit we must have the Holy Spirit. Maybe we really don't have free will after all. 
Paul gave us a list of the fruit of the Spirit:  "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."10  Because the fruit is of the Holy Spirit, we won't have it unless we have the Holy Spirit in our lives.  It is a test for the presence of the Spirit.  We will have the fruit if we have the Spirit.

The fruit is from the Spirit, not us. Just as the power of Jesus was from God, our power/fruit is from God.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 9, 2014)

If I was going to test myself for salvation, how much  love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control would I need to show to get a passing score?

I have noticed these salvation proofing necessaries are exactly what Jesus taught. You know, loving God and neighbors. It's not so much about repenting from sin and commandment following but Love.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 9, 2014)

hawglips said:


> Because Christ taught that it was necessary.   I think the confusion comes because few are willing to enter in at the strait gate and walk the narrow way that he showed us, and try to look for solutions out in the broad way instead.



Do you believe you can change your own destination by producing fruit or is the production from the Holy Spirit?
Do you believe salvation is a gift produced by repentance?

Just to show you the power of God:

1 Corinthians 15:27-28
27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Even Jesus was subjected to God's authority and plan.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 9, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Isn't it sorta like "My sheep hear my voice." If depraved or at least your ears aren't pricked, You won't hear.
> 
> ‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
> You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
> (who is this talking about?)?



Isaiah 6



Artfuldodger said:


> 17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
> 
> Somehow though it appears to be addressed to the disciples having some inside information.?



or interpreter



Artfuldodger said:


> Otherwise we all call ourselves Christians but all have different beliefs. It's like some things are still a mystery. Many prophets and righteous men desired to see what the disciples saw. These were not lost people.?



They aren't?



Artfuldodger said:


> I don't consider myself lost yet I don't fully understand. The prophets and righteous men didn't fully understand yet the disciples see and heard. They were blessed.
> His own disciples had to ask of their meaning.?



No, they ask "Why parables?"



Artfuldodger said:


> Could it be some parables were just for the disciples to understand?



BINGO! if by disciples you don't mean the twelve, and don't mean everyone who followed Him around. That's the point of vss. 10-23.


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## hawglips (Oct 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you believe you can change your own destination by producing fruit or is the production from the Holy Spirit?



We always have the choice to follow the Holy Spirit or not to; to take the Holy Spirit as our guide, or not to.  God won't take that power to choose from us. 

Christ taught over and over again that what we do will determine our eternal destiny, and that what we do is the fruit of what we have become and what we truly desire and believe.  



Artfuldodger said:


> Do you believe salvation is a gift produced by repentance?



A gift "produced" by repentance (or anything else)?  No.

Contingent on repentance?  Yes.   Even the most avid grace-only, one-and-done preachers teach that you have to do something to be saved.  The only question is what needs to be done.  I believe that it's all the things that Christ said were required.  "...and few there be that find it..."



Artfuldodger said:


> Even Jesus was subjected to God's authority and plan.



Amen.


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## hawglips (Oct 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's not so much about repenting from sin and commandment following but Love.



The two are inseparable.  Just like a tree from its fruits.  But it's the fruits that tell the story of what kind of tree it really is.  Not every one that saith Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - only those that do the will of the Father.  If we really love Him, we will gladly obey His commandments.  We will want to.  We will bend our will to His.  We will seek to know what He wants us to do, and will do it.  We will love our fellow man.  We will minister to them.  And we will repent and try to do better when we inevitably fall short.  

If we aren't willing to do His will, or have no desire to, or like to hang on to our favorite sins and aren't willing to give them up - our fruits will betray our hearts.


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## hawglips (Oct 10, 2014)

I believe God gives us commandments not because He is trying to control us, or wants to see what we will do, but because He loves us.  He wants us to be happy.  He wants us to grow and develop and to become the kind of being that will be comfortable in His presence some day.   "Be ye therefore perfect, even as I and my Father in Heaven are perfect."  I believe each and every commandment (including those whispered by the Holy Ghost) blesses us here in mortality and in the eternities if we will obey them.  I don't believe the man that has spent a lifetime unwilling or without the desire to obey them will feel comfortable in His presence due to who he has become through his daily decisions not to follow Him but to follow the flesh or whatever else he desired to follow instead while in this life.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 13, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> If you are in the other categories is your salvation at risk? Can someone stay all the time in the good soil category?



I would say the other 3 soils...the person was never a Christian.  One of the marks of a true believer is fruit.  Those other 3 soils never produced a plant that had fruit.

Funny that you bring up this passage.  Our pastor preached on it yesterday.  Made a good point to make sure we as believers come to church on Sunday morning with soil ready for the Word.  How often I stay up late or come to church with everything else on my mind other than taking in the Word.  



Bob2010 said:


> Some of the JW beliefs are not biblical. Those people are influenced to believe what is easy or what they are taught.  Well that happens at my baptist church too. We are guilty of the same thing



I'm interested in what you say is the same thing?

While some things are not maybe Biblical, I'd venture to say that they are not anti-Biblical.  The JWs teaching are anti-Biblical....the greatest of them being that they believe Jesus is not God, but rather just a good man.

Change who Christ is, and you change the entire religion.


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## Bob2010 (Oct 13, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> I would say the other 3 soils...the person was never a Christian.  One of the marks of a true believer is fruit.  Those other 3 soils never produced a plant that had fruit.
> 
> Funny that you bring up this passage.  Our pastor preached on it yesterday.  Made a good point to make sure we as believers come to church on Sunday morning with soil ready for the Word.  How often I stay up late or come to church with everything else on my mind other than taking in the Word.
> 
> ...



This statement was something that Francis Chan from the crazy love series brought up. He said when his church got so big that people were standing he knew it was time to build a bigger church.  So they did. Not a bad thing at all. Not anti biblical either. It's what churches do when they grow. Go with the flow right. He realized later he didn't even pray and ask God about that decision.  He then talked about how he met with jw in his office.  The things they believed were not supported by the bible. They had been taught to believe something or to follow the crowd.  The JW did not change their beliefs that day but they did agree to study the bible and not just listen to the influence of others. He said there are many things that are done in church that are tradition or taught that are not biblical.  Not anti biblical or bad. But not really the way the bible says it should be. Example is no where in the bible does it say we should pray and ask Jesus to come into our heart. It says repent.  His point is are we seeking what the Bible is really teaching us or are we just going along with the church. 

CRAZY LOVE - Chapter 5: http://youtu.be/c0dXmWMwSb4


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 13, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> This statement was something that Francis Chan from the crazy love series brought up. He said when his church got so big that people were standing he knew it was time to build a bigger church.  So they did. Not a bad thing at all. Not anti biblical either. It's what churches do when they grow. Go with the flow right. He realized later he didn't even pray and ask God about that decision.  He then talked about how he met with jw in his office.  The things they believed were not supported by the bible. They had been taught to believe something or to follow the crowd.  The JW did not change their beliefs that day but they did agree to study the bible and not just listen to the influence of others. He said there are many things that are done in church that are tradition or taught that are not biblical.  Not anti biblical or bad. But not really the way the bible says it should be. Example is no where in the bible does it say we should pray and ask Jesus to come into our heart. It says repent.  His point is are we seeking what the Bible is really teaching us or are we just going along with the church.
> 
> CRAZY LOVE - Chapter 5: http://youtu.be/c0dXmWMwSb4



I didn't watch the video but what does the preacher say repenting for salvation means? Maybe he views God's calling not needing such a prayer.


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## Bob2010 (Oct 14, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I didn't watch the video but what does the preacher say repenting for salvation means? Maybe he views God's calling not needing such a prayer.



Maybe.  The video is short and maybe worth watching.  I'm not good at relaying a message from others.  I think his point is just like JWs should not just do or believe what church elders or teachers tell them too. We have a responsibility to pray and seek what the word says is biblical.  Then do that regardless if it's the popular road to travel.  In doing that it seems to lead us back to the mystery or parables that are really tough to grasp or could be viewed differently person to person.  The answer has got to be in the seeking and acceptance of the power of God knowing we can't grasp it all.


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## Bob2010 (Oct 14, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I didn't watch the video but what does the preacher say repenting for salvation means? Maybe he views God's calling not needing such a prayer.



Asking Jesus into your heart is not the same as asking for forgiveness for your sins and accepting that Christ died for you?


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## hawglips (Oct 14, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> The JWs teaching are anti-Biblical....the greatest of them being that they believe Jesus is not God, but rather just a good man.



Here's what JWs believe about Christ:

http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/good-news-from-god/who-is-jesus-christ/


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## Bob2010 (Oct 14, 2014)

hawglips said:


> Here's what JWs believe about Christ:
> 
> http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/good-news-from-god/who-is-jesus-christ/



I read that. Seems not all that different from what Christians believe about Christ.  My point is I'm sure there are things jw believe that are not biblical.  Things taught or traditional.  We have that same problem in the Christian church.  Maybe not anti biblical but things that are elaborated or grown into something that has nothing to with the word of God.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 14, 2014)

hawglips said:


> Here's what JWs believe about Christ:
> 
> http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/good-news-from-god/who-is-jesus-christ/



And...how is what I said different from their website?



Bob2010 said:


> I read that. Seems not all that different from what Christians believe about Christ.  My point is I'm sure there are things jw believe that are not biblical.  Things taught or traditional.  We have that same problem in the Christian church.  Maybe not anti biblical but things that are elaborated or grown into something that has nothing to with the word of God.



I don't understand how you can read that and think it is "not all that different."  Do not be deceived.


Do you believe that Jesus is God?  The Bible teaches this....Jesus claimed it as well....He called Himself "I am."

Jesus was not a created being.  He is not a spirit person.  He is God.  To say otherwise is to believe in a false gospel...a false Jesus.

If you get who you believe in wrong (ie Jesus), everything else will be wrong.


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## Bob2010 (Oct 14, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> And...how is what I said different from their website?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe I should read it again. I don't know about the spirit being. Missed that. I believe he is the son of God and God. Trinity.  The rest though about the son of God and being without sin and fully human seems the same. I'll read again.


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## Bob2010 (Oct 14, 2014)

Ok spirit being and son of God before coming here. No idea about all that??? I do believe he was 100% human when on earth and without sin. He was God but chose to be human in part so we could relate to him. Then he paid the debt for all of us. Anything else you see other than spirit being really out of whack? ?? Or different?  Not with jw in general but this topic? I do believe Jesus is God. But the trinity leaves some questions.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 14, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> Ok spirit being and son of God before coming here. No idea about all that??? I do believe he was 100% human when on earth and without sin. He was God but chose to be human in part so we could relate to him. Then he paid the debt for all of us. Anything else you see other than spirit being really out of whack? ?? Or different?  Not with jw in general but this topic? I do believe Jesus is God. But the trinity leaves some questions.



Nope....there are other issues with JWs...also, on that page, I don't think he changed between spirit/man/God after his death/resurrection as the website above portrays either.  I will also say this....the goal of all false teachers is to intertwine truth with their error.  This makes them more "believable" and is the reason that so many have fallen in their trap of false teachings.  It is why one must have a deeper understanding of the Word....a doctrinal basis rather than just a surface knowledge.  

As I said before, with a wrong view of Jesus, you have a wrong view of salvation imho.

I too believe that Jesus was 100% man (but also 100% God) while on this earth.


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## hawglips (Oct 14, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> And...how is what I said different from their website?



I don't think this part of what you said is accurate according to their website:



> ...they believe Jesus is...just a good man.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 14, 2014)

Jw's also believe Jesus came back in 1914 and has been present ever since, ruling as King on earth through the Watchtower Society....

 This is especially odd to me because Jesus said in Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

So if Jesus said this around 30 ad to people around his age, folks in 1914 would have been around 1,914 years old....Bizzare teaching.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 14, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> And...how is what I said different from their website?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Amen!


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## rjcruiser (Oct 14, 2014)

hawglips said:


> I don't think this part of what you said is accurate according to their website:


 
According to their website or according to what they believe? 

Do you believe Jesus is God?


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## Bob2010 (Oct 14, 2014)

I read it again. I am ADD and have to read stuff 10 times to get it. The wording they use to me is weird. Spirit being or spirit person I don't understand.  They don't say Christ is not God. They don't say he is God. Alot of what I read seems the same we believe. I'm not saying jw believe Christ is God. I don't know what they believe. Frankly don't care that much. Especially at the cost of questioning my own salvation.  But other than the spirit being stuff and what Jesus was doing before earth stuff. The rest seems kind of what they teach at church. I believe God, The Holy Spirit, and Christ exist and are 3 different but the same God. Holy spirit is here with us. While we can pray to Christ the Holy spirit is here working within us. I was taught Christ may intercede for us to God. I imagine that is debatable.  My belief is not changing and I hate riding bikes and wearing short sleeve white dress shirts.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 14, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Jw's also believe Jesus came back in 1914 and has been present ever since, ruling as King on earth through the Watchtower Society....
> 
> This is especially odd to me because Jesus said in Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
> 
> So if Jesus said this around 30 ad to people around his age, folks in 1914 would have been around 1,914 years old....Bizzare teaching.



And some Christians say he came back in 70AD.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 14, 2014)

hawglips said:


> I don't think this part of what you said is accurate according to their website:



Eventually you are going to have to explain yourself but I agree with what you said.

I don't agree with the JW's that Jesus was Michael.

I might have some common beliefs about Jesus that you have. I'd honestly like to discuss them.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 14, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> And some Christians say he came back in 70AD.



Now that would make sense. That puts those standing there at 70 years old.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 14, 2014)

Bob2010 said:


> I read it again. I am ADD and have to read stuff 10 times to get it. The wording they use to me is weird. Spirit being or spirit person I don't understand.  They don't say Christ is not God. They don't say he is God. Alot of what I read seems the same we believe. I'm not saying jw believe Christ is God. I don't know what they believe. Frankly don't care that much. Especially at the cost of questioning my own salvation.  But other than the spirit being stuff and what Jesus was doing before earth stuff. The rest seems kind of what they teach at church. I believe God, The Holy Spirit, and Christ exist and are 3 different but the same God. Holy spirit is here with us. While we can pray to Christ the Holy spirit is here working within us. I was taught Christ may intercede for us to God. I imagine that is debatable.  My belief is not changing and I hate riding bikes and wearing short sleeve white dress shirts.



I'm not ADD and have to read everything 100 times. Never forget that Christ can intercede for us to God regardless of what the JW's, Mormons, or anyone else tells you that one statement is true.
If you believe that Jesus is the Son of man and that he died for our sins and arose from the dead, then you have salvation. He defeated death for you. 
Beyond that, grab a Bible and read who Jesus said he was.
Not who I say he was or not even who your preacher says he was. Chan has some amazing advise. I wish I had discovered him when I was going through my "repentance."
Meaning when I finally repented or changed everything I believed about salvation. 
My path is my path and your path is your path. You can find your own path even with ADD. It can't be worse than overcoming indoctrination. Like Chan said about the JW's, he was just spouting Church beliefs instead of biblical beliefs. He sounds like a smart fellow. I might have to listen to him more. Not to develop his beliefs but his concept of understanding the Bible. 
One more thing, many people will say the Church has studied and researched all of this for hundreds of years and you are just one little guy. Smart people who figured it out for us. They can't be wrong. Who is right and who is wrong? 
What will your answer be? I've always said; I don't really care what thousands of scholars believe, I only want to know what the Bible says.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 14, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Now that would make sense. That puts those standing there at 70 years old.



I agree, way better than 1914 or possibly even 2014.
If I had grown up on a deserted island and found a Bible, having never been in any Church, 70AD would make perfect sense as the second coming.

What advise do you have for Bob in how you figured this out for yourself against your indoctrination?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 14, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> Nope....there are other issues with JWs...also, on that page,  as the website above portrays either.  I will also say this....the goal of all false teachers is to intertwine truth with their error.  This makes them more "believable" and is the reason that so many have fallen in their trap of false teachings.  It is why one must have a deeper understanding of the Word....a doctrinal basis rather than just a surface knowledge.
> 
> As I said before, with a wrong view of Jesus, you have a wrong view of salvation imho.
> 
> I too believe that Jesus was 100% man (but also 100% God) while on this earth.



I haven't done the research on JW's but what did you mean by;
I don't think he changed between spirit/man/God after his death/resurrection?


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## hobbs27 (Oct 14, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree, way better than 1914 or possibly even 2014.
> If I had grown up on a deserted island and found a Bible, having never been in any Church, 70AD would make perfect sense as the second coming.
> 
> What advise do you have for Bob in how you figured this out for yourself against your indoctrination?



Just love the Lord and trust the Word!


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## Bob2010 (Oct 14, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not ADD and have to read everything 100 times. Never forget that Christ can intercede for us to God regardless of what the JW's, Mormons, or anyone else tells you that one statement is true.
> If you believe that Jesus is the Son of man and that he died for our sins and arose from the dead, then you have salvation. He defeated death for you.
> Beyond that, grab a Bible and read who Jesus said he was.
> Not who I say he was or not even who your preacher says he was. Chan has some amazing advise. I wish I had discovered him when I was going through my "repentance."
> ...



I like reading his stuff. It keeps me interested. Pretty confident I have salvation.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 14, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I haven't done the research on JW's but what did you mean by;
> I don't think he changed between spirit/man/God after his death/resurrection?



Read the link.  Think that will clear it up.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> Read the link.  Think that will clear it up.



 After Jesus died, God restored him to life as a spirit person. (1 Peter 3:18) Jesus then waited at God’s right hand until Jehovah gave him power to rule as King over all the earth. (Hebrews 10:12, 13) Now Jesus is ruling as King in heaven, and his followers are announcing that good news worldwide.

I don't believe that is much different than Hobbs beliefs although somewhat different. Maybe Hobbs will respond.

He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. Some preterist believe this as Peter states and that his body resurrection was just an example to the disciples. That Jesus was in a spirit body and could go through walls unannouncing his presence. He left his body and became a spirit for his ascension.
They believe Jesus waited at the right hand of God as a spirit and that he returned to the earth as a spirit in 70AD.
 Now Jesus is ruling as King in heaven, and his followers are announcing that good news worldwide. Jesus is ruling from Heaven as a Spirit. This makes more sense as a Trinitarian than believing Jesus is physically sitting next to God as a human form. 

They do have other beliefs but their belief about Jesus changing between spirit/man/God aren't that different.


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## Bob2010 (Oct 15, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> After Jesus died, God restored him to life as a spirit person. (1 Peter 3:18) Jesus then waited at God’s right hand until Jehovah gave him power to rule as King over all the earth. (Hebrews 10:12, 13) Now Jesus is ruling as King in heaven, and his followers are announcing that good news worldwide.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It doesn't seem all that different but it is in one way to me very different.  I very much see Jesus sitting next to his father. I see Jesus celebrating for us. So when we are obedient or honor him with what we do. I see Jesus saying " Dad! Did you see that? The Holy Spirit touched him! Well done! He is more than a spirit.  He has power over all spirits. He is God.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 15, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> After Jesus died, God restored him to life as a spirit person. (1 Peter 3:18) Jesus then waited at God’s right hand until Jehovah gave him power to rule as King over all the earth. (Hebrews 10:12, 13) Now Jesus is ruling as King in heaven, and his followers are announcing that good news worldwide.
> 
> I don't believe that is much different than Hobbs beliefs although somewhat different. Maybe Hobbs will respond.
> 
> ...



As for the JW's ...even a blind hog Will find an acorn from time to time. They were right in some things but messed it all up with their futurist beliefs in an end.

For Jesus to be God He must be a spirit for God is spirit. For Him to be with the Father He must not be in flesh. I realize He was resurrected in the flesh, this doesn't mean His return was to be in the flesh.

2 Timothy 2, mentions Hymenaeus teaching the resurrection had come already which was false at that time. He had many Christians convinced of it though and Paul had to correct him. Now if the resurrection were to be a physical thing and then the end...well, wouldn't that be an easy correction? It Wasn't though, they never believed the resurrection was to be physical, nor at the end of the physical world. They understood it to be the promise of the hope of Israel, as Paul pleads from Acts 22-24. It was to come at the end of the old covenant age, and was Israel's salvation of the dead in paradise....We in the new covenant have everlasting life, that's our promise and hope, so there is no dead to ressurect..Its so simple! The Bible is clear on this, but the church has it all confused, making us live an old covenant lifestyle in the new covenant. Again, our hope is not ressurection of the dead....our hope is eternal life!


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## hawglips (Oct 15, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> According to their website or according to what they believe?



You moved your target.

According to their website, which is what they believe.  No offense, but taking the word of someone hostile towards a Jehovah Witness's beliefs about what a JW believes is not a high percentage approach if one is wanting to know the truth about what a JW believes.  



rjcruiser said:


> Do you believe Jesus is God?



Is Jesus God the Creator?  Yes.  

Is Jesus the God of salvation, through which all must pass in order to receive eternal life?  Yes.  

Is Jesus the Savior who wrought an infinite atonement?  Yes.  

Is Jesus God the Father?  No.  Jesus made that crystal clear - as did those who testified of Him.  And I believe what He said about it.

John 20:17   Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Luke 18:18  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

John 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 4:34  Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

John 3: 16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, 

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Mark 16:19  So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

John 12:44  Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, 

Matthew 18:19   Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 

John 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, 

John 14:31  But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do. 

John 12:49  For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

Hebrews 10:7  Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”

Hebrews 5:8  ...though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

There are at least 22 accounts in the Bible of Jesus praying to God the Father.   Obviously, He prayed to God the Father very often throughout His mortal existence.  I'd assume it is safe to say He prayed to God the Father at least daily.  

And on at least two occasions God the Father allowed others to hear His voice from heaven when he testified of Jesus as His Son.

Matthew 3:17  And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 17:5  While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

2 Peter 1:17  For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,”

Do you believe something else other than what these all teach about Jesus and God the Father?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2014)

hawglips said:


> You moved your target.
> 
> According to their website, which is what they believe.  No offense, but taking the word of someone hostile towards a Jehovah Witness's beliefs about what a JW believes is not a high percentage approach if one is wanting to know the truth about what a JW believes.
> 
> ...



Amen, and thanks


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## rjcruiser (Oct 15, 2014)

hawglips said:


> You moved your target.
> 
> According to their website, which is what they believe.  No offense, but taking the word of someone hostile towards a Jehovah Witness's beliefs about what a JW believes is not a high percentage approach if one is wanting to know the truth about what a JW believes.



Not true.  The website link you linked doesn't deal with the question.  It dances all around it because they are trying to hide their true teaching.  Whenever JWs come to my door, that's the first thing I ask.  And they all try to prove that Jesus is not God.

JWs believe he was a good person.




hawglips said:


> Is Jesus God the Creator?  Yes.
> 
> Is Jesus the God of salvation, through which all must pass in order to receive eternal life?  Yes.
> 
> ...



Jesus said He was "I am."  How do you deal with John 8:56-58?

Why did the Pharisees want to kill Jesus?  Because he claimed He was God (the I AM).  You can't have it both ways....Jesus the God of our salvation, Jesus the God of creation...and then all of the sudden say, God the Son is not the same God as God the Father.

I know your Mormon teachings are different than JWs, but if you believe in a plurality of gods, how do you explain the Shema in Duet 6?  The Lord is one.  The Lord of creation, the Lord of salvation, the Lord of atonement.  One God.




			
				hawglips said:
			
		

> John 20:17   Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
> 
> Luke 18:18  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
> 
> ...



I believe exactly what these teach.  One God....three persons.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> I believe exactly what these teach.  One God....three persons.



That's not what every Christians believes.
You made this thread head this direction by doubting another Christian' faith who believe Jesus died for his sins.
We can only take so much of this before we have to defend ourselves. We try very hard to bight our tongue.
You should let Bob read the Bible and figure it out for himself.
I'm pretty sure he is capable of doing this. He believes in the Trinity as do most Christians but it isn't a requirement for salvation. He probably won't change his mind and it might enforce his Trinitarian beliefs to read of others.


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## Bob2010 (Oct 15, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> Not true.  The website link you linked doesn't deal with the question.  It dances all around it because they are trying to hide their true teaching.  Whenever JWs come to my door, that's the first thing I ask.  And they all try to prove that Jesus is not God.
> 
> JWs believe he was a good person.
> 
> ...



I guess you get more bees with honey.  I do agree there was some dancing going on in the wording on that site. They should add another section titled. Still don't know what we believe???


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## rjcruiser (Oct 15, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's not what every Christians believes.
> You made this thread head this direction by doubting another Christian' faith who believe Jesus died for his sins.
> We can only take so much of this before we have to defend ourselves. We try very hard to bight our tongue.
> You should let Bob read the Bible and figure it out for himself.
> I'm pretty sure he is capable of doing this. He believes in the Trinity as do most Christians but it isn't a requirement for salvation. He probably won't change his mind and it might enforce his Trinitarian beliefs to read of others.



I didn't bring up JWs...the OP did.  I'm merely pointing out that while many churches disagree on issues, when it comes to the person of Christ, you disagree on the cornerstone of Christianity.

If you have a wrong view of Christ, your Christianity will be wrong.

Defend your belief.  I'll defend mine.  But I won't sit around reading about how Mormons and JWs believe the same thing as Christians.  They don't.



Bob2010 said:


> I guess you get more bees with honey.  I do agree there was some dancing going on in the wording on that site. They should add another section titled. Still don't know what we believe???



Correct.  As with any false religion....hide your differences, magnify your commonalities.


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## hawglips (Oct 15, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> Not true.  The website link you linked doesn't deal with the question.  It dances all around it because they are trying to hide their true teaching.  Whenever JWs come to my door, that's the first thing I ask.  And they all try to prove that Jesus is not God.
> 
> JWs believe he was a good person.



According to you, not according to JWs. 



rjcruiser said:


> Jesus said He was "I am."  How do you deal with John 8:56-58?



I see no need to deal with it.  I accept and believe it fully.



rjcruiser said:


> Why did the Pharisees want to kill Jesus?  Because he claimed He was God (the I AM).



That's right.  And because He thereby undermined their authority and status among the people.   Folks don't take it too kindly when one does that.  



rjcruiser said:


> You can't have it both ways....Jesus the God of our salvation, Jesus the God of creation...and then all of the sudden say, God the Son is not the same God as God the Father.



And apparently so do you, if you really believe in "three persons", as you state below; and since God the Father and Jesus Christ were, are and always have been distinct; as you indicate with the "three persons" description.



rjcruiser said:


> I know your Mormon teachings are different than JWs, but if you believe in a plurality of gods, how do you explain the Shema in Duet 6?  The Lord is one.  The Lord of creation, the Lord of salvation, the Lord of atonement.  One God.



I don't know anything much about JW teachings, but it appears to me that you aren't interested in giving them a fair shake about what they believe or don't believe about Christ.   

But I think John 17 explains it well.  Genesis 1:26 and John 1:1 adds a bit more substance to it.



rjcruiser said:


> I believe exactly what these teach.  One God....three persons.



Then we see eye to eye on it - except I don't think I like to use the term "persons."


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## hawglips (Oct 18, 2014)

> if you believe in a plurality of gods, how do you explain the Shema in Duet 6? The Lord is one. The Lord of creation, the Lord of salvation, the Lord of atonement. One God.





hawglips said:


> ...I think John 17 explains it well.  Genesis 1:26 and John 1:1 adds a bit more substance to it.



And of course Hebrews 1:2 and Ephesians 3:9.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2014)

hawglips said:


> And of course Hebrews 1:2 and Ephesians 3:9.



Hebrews 1:2
has in these last days spoken to us by a Son whom he appointed to be the heir of everything and through whom he also made the universe.

I like this "through whom he also made the universe."

This lets me know that God made the universe himself. He did make it through Jesus. God knew through foreknowledge that the Word would need to be revealed  through Jesus. Jesus is the Word.  The world was made through Jesus. Weird that as a nontrin, this has a different meaning. I can picture God making the world through Jesus as different than before I was a Trinitarian. 
Jesus is the Word. Amen!
I could believe that God came to earth as Jesus before I could believe Jesus is one part or person of God. In other words the Oneness have it more correct than the Trinity believers. Oneness believers don't divide Jesus. They believe in one God. One God who appears as either the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. But, never as all three or even two separately. 
With all of the Pentecostals in Georgia, why do they never post? Maybe they don't hunt or fish. Maybe they are forbidden.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2014)

Ephesians 3:9
and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

I'm lost, what is the relation?

and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2014)

hawglips said:


> And of course Hebrews 1:2 and Ephesians 3:9.



When you read of these Biblical prophesies, how do you relate it to me or you in relation to our salvation? 
You seem to believe salvation is dependent on something me or you must do. You're not the only one as many others believe as you.
How do you read of these prophesies such as Judas betraying Jesus or read of Saul's change to Paul  and somehow believe I or you have to do certain things or show repentance if this repentance isn't from the fruit of the Holy Spirit manifesting itself through me or you?
God foretold everything up to his only Son coming and dying, yet I'm to believe I have a choice in producing fruit. 
Do I really have a choice in producing this fruit or is my proof of salvation really form the Holy Spirit producing fruit?


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## hawglips (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I could believe that God came to earth as Jesus before I could believe Jesus is one part or person of God. In other words the Oneness have it more correct than the Trinity believers. Oneness believers don't divide Jesus. They believe in one God. One God who appears as either the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. But, never as all three or even two separately.



There are many accounts of separateness of the Godhead in the Bible.  It seems to me that one would have to ignore significant parts of the four gospels (among other things) to believe otherwise.  And there is no dividing of Jesus going on with that - just recognizing the distinction between God the Father, His Beloved and only begotten Son, and the Holy Ghost.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

hawglips said:


> There are many accounts of separateness of the Godhead in the Bible.  It seems to me that one would have to ignore significant parts of the four gospels (among other things) to believe otherwise.  And there is no dividing of Jesus going on with that - just recognizing the distinction between God the Father, His Beloved and only begotten Son, and the Holy Ghost.



Would you consider yourself a Oneness believer?


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