# Hebrews 6:4-6



## TDBone (Nov 10, 2009)

Hebrews 6:4-6

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

In it's proper context, how do you interpret this verse?


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## farmasis (Nov 10, 2009)

Once saved...always saved.

I know on the surface of this it seems it would be possible for us to give back grace and fall away and not be renewed again. However, how much part of the salvation process did we have to begin with? I believe in salvation by faith. We are regenerated by God, and we only accept God's gift of grace. Salvation is the work of God, not ours. And we are promised to be kept until that day. We are promised to never be seperated from the love of God, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit. In other words, God that saved us will keep us saved (Phil 1:6). I think Paul is saying that if it were possible to fall away from grace, it would be impossible for us to be saved again, because it would require Christ to die again.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 10, 2009)

TDBone said:


> Hebrews 6:4-6
> 
> "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."
> 
> In it's proper context, how do you interpret this verse?




"Blue" are my comments to scripture.

In it's proper content, what are these verses conveying?

The book of Hebrews is written primarily to Christians who converted from Judaism.  These Christians were being tempted to revert back to the Old law.  The entire book of Hebrews deals with the issue of Jesus Christ being far superior to the Old law with it's priests and altars.  It deals with the supremacy and the sufficiency of Jesus Christ as the bringer of God's grace.
Even the Old Testament attest to the sufficiency of Christ.  According to the writer of Hebrews.

In Heb 6, the writer continues on with this theme.

Heb 6:1-3 (RT's version)....... It's time to move on to maturity in Christ.  To live for Him.  Stop striving to live by the laws and works of the Old law.

Heb 6:4  4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 
He's talking about those Jews who have received the HS and accepted Jesus as their Lord.  
Those who've come to know of the Kingdom of God
 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 
Writer continues to speak of those who converted from Judaism to Christ.  
Those who have tasted(witnessed) the power of God thru Jesus Christ His Son.
 6and then have fallen away,Talking about those Jewish Christians who turn from salvation in Jesus, 
forsake that salvation for the sacrifices and priests of the Old Law it is impossible to renew them again to repentance,there can be no repentance for them if they are living for the Old law. since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. To walk away from salvation thru the resurrected Son of God, 
is to bring shame upon the love and kindness of God.

 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; A short parable concerning living in the kingdom.

 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. A short parable concerning those who disregard salvation.


If a Jew accepts Jesus, and all that implies, then go back from where they came, there is no repentance for them there.

The lesson for us today:  If accept Jesus Christ, but leave Him for something or someone else, you cannot repent.  If you cannot repent thru Jesus Christ, you fail the test.  

If you leave Christ, and 10 years later accept the Muslim faith, you have brought shame to the love and goodness of God.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 10, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Once saved...always saved.
> 
> I know on the surface of this it seems it would be possible for us to give back grace and fall away and not be renewed again. However, how much part of the salvation process did we have to begin with? I believe in salvation by faith. We are regenerated by God, and we only accept God's gift of grace. Salvation is the work of God, not ours. And we are promised to be kept until that day. We are promised to never be seperated from the love of God, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit. In other words, God that saved us will keep us saved (Phil 1:6). I think Paul is saying that if it were possible to fall away from grace, it would be impossible for us to be saved again, because it would require Christ to die again.




"In it's proper content, how do you interpret these verses."

My friend, he did not ask for an exposé on OSAS.
Now you know that is not the subject and idea behind those verses in Heb 6.
Put the scripture in context.

If someone asked you to describe one medication, you wouldn't ignore that med and describe another one.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 10, 2009)

TDBone said:


> Hebrews 6:4-6
> 
> "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."
> 
> In it's proper context, how do you interpret this verse?



 Divorce God once and the relationship you once had will never be the same.

This does not mean that if you sin u mock God. Some enlighthened people sin a whole lot, and ask forgiveness, but they never give up on the relationship. For me King David is a fine example of what I'm getting at.


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## Lowjack (Nov 10, 2009)

gordon 2 said:


> Divorce God once and the relationship you once had will never be the same.
> 
> This does not mean that if you sin u mock God. Some enlighthened people sin a whole lot, and ask forgiveness, but they never give up on the relationship. For me King David is a fine example of what I'm getting at.



So the argument Ronnie presents as to applying to Jews who go back to being jews is wrong ?
King David was a Jew wasn't he ?
Did he know Jesus ?
So how was he saved ?


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## Jeffriesw (Nov 11, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> So the argument Ronnie presents as to applying to Jews who go back to being jews is wrong ?
> King David was a Jew wasn't he ?
> Did he know Jesus ?
> So how was he saved ?



I think Ronnie T was referring to the fact that although David sinned against God often and sometimes in horrifying ways He still maintained a relationship with God.


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## farmasis (Nov 11, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> So the argument Ronnie presents as to applying to Jews who go back to being jews is wrong ?
> King David was a Jew wasn't he ?
> Did he know Jesus ?
> So how was he saved ?


 
King David met Jesus when He descended.


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## farmasis (Nov 11, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> "In it's proper content, how do you interpret these verses."
> 
> My friend, he did not ask for an exposé on OSAS.
> Now you know that is not the subject and idea behind those verses in Heb 6.
> ...


 
It most definately is in context. You cannot be redeemed, then lost and redeemed again. So either it is impossible to loose your salvation or salvation can be lost and never again obtained. In context with the rest of Paul's writings, we see that is not the case. Yes, sometimes other scripture has to be used to reveal the meaning of another.

You wouldn't want your pharmacist to give you a medicine for a condition, and ignore it's effects in other parts of the body, because the body is a whole.


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## reformedpastor (Nov 11, 2009)

Swamp Runner said:


> I think Ronnie T was referring to the fact that although David sinned against God often and sometimes in horrifying ways He still maintained a relationship with God.



Thought I'd drop in. 

It was God who was faithful and maintained the relationship, 2 Sam 12:1. It's the same with us, without Him being faithful we would all fall away. Its grace and all grace.


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## Jeffriesw (Nov 11, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> Thought I'd drop in.
> 
> It was God who was faithful and maintained the relationship, 2 Sam 12:1. It's the same with us, with Him being faithful we would all fall away. Its grace and all grace.



Yep, Without Grace there is nothing..


Welcome Back RP, Nice to see you around again


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## rjcruiser (Nov 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Once saved...always saved.
> 
> I know on the surface of this it seems it would be possible for us to give back grace and fall away and not be renewed again. However, how much part of the salvation process did we have to begin with? I believe in salvation by faith. We are regenerated by God, and we only accept God's gift of grace. Salvation is the work of God, not ours. And we are promised to be kept until that day. We are promised to never be seperated from the love of God, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit. In other words, God that saved us will keep us saved (Phil 1:6). I think Paul is saying that if it were possible to fall away from grace, it would be impossible for us to be saved again, because it would require Christ to die again.



I agree.



Ronnie T said:


> My friend, he did not ask for an exposé on OSAS.
> Now you know that is not the subject and idea behind those verses in Heb 6.
> Put the scripture in context.
> 
> If someone asked you to describe one medication, you wouldn't ignore that med and describe another one.







Lowjack said:


> So the argument Ronnie presents as to applying to Jews who go back to being jews is wrong ?
> King David was a Jew wasn't he ?
> Did he know Jesus ?
> So how was he saved ?



He along with the other OT Saints were saved by Faith.  Read Hebrews 11.  It had nothing to do with the fact that they were Jews.

If it were because they were Jews....you'd have to explain Rahab and Ruth....both were in the line of King David and ultimately Jesus.



reformedpastor said:


> Thought I'd drop in.
> 
> It was God who was faithful and maintained the relationship, 2 Sam 12:1. It's the same with us, with Him being faithful we would all fall away. Its grace and all grace.




Welcome back


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## gtparts (Nov 11, 2009)

Swamp Runner said:


> Yep, Without Grace there is nothing..
> 
> 
> Welcome Back RP, Nice to see you around again



Same here, brother.

Yep, when David seemed to "let go of God", even for the shortest of times, God still "held on to David". If you read the whole story of David, he suffered the consequences of "letting go", but you also see a man who has lost interest in satisfying himself by "letting go". 

See II Samuel 12:1-24


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## Ronnie T (Nov 11, 2009)

Swamp Runner said:


> I think Ronnie T was referring to the fact that although David sinned against God often and sometimes in horrifying ways He still maintained a relationship with God.



Absolutely.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> It most definately is in context. You cannot be redeemed, then lost and redeemed again. So either it is impossible to loose your salvation or salvation can be lost and never again obtained. In context with the rest of Paul's writings, we see that is not the case. Yes, sometimes other scripture has to be used to reveal the meaning of another.
> 
> You wouldn't want your pharmacist to give you a medicine for a condition, and ignore it's effects in other parts of the body, because the body is a whole.



Then would you please give me a verse by verse discription of what the writer is saying in these particular verses?
Verse by verse.
And he's talking about Jewish Christians turning from Christ.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 11, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> So the argument Ronnie presents as to applying to Jews who go back to being jews is wrong ?
> King David was a Jew wasn't he ?
> Did he know Jesus ?
> So how was he saved ?



I know for a fact that there are many ways to skin a cat. I will trade 300million  self avoued "saved" christians who pay lip service to Jesus buy stating themselves saved, for one jew who is in love with God. The Jesus or nothin folk forget the heart of a good sameritan, who even and especially the jews in the southern part of ancient Isreal considered not unlike what many southern christians in the US think of the "godless" northern or californian ones.


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## Lowjack (Nov 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> King David met Jesus when He descended.


Chapter and verse please ??
 Read Carefully Jesus descended to preach to the souls that died during the flood of Noah "THE ONES THAT WERE ONCE DISOBEDIENT" where does it say King David was in Gehenna
Second , who was in Paradise with Eleazar ( Lazarus) ? Abraham was running things in Paradise.


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## Lowjack (Nov 11, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Then would you please give me a verse by verse discription of what the writer is saying in these particular verses?
> Verse by verse.
> And he's talking about Jewish Christians turning from Christ.



He is talking about anybody turning from Christ !!


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## BANDERSNATCH (Nov 11, 2009)

I've always considered these verses to very closely match Hebrews 10:26....which scared me for quite a while as a new christian.   10:26 states..."for if we sin willfully after coming to the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin, but a certain fearful looking for of judgement....."     The 'sin' referred to in this verse -- and I believe it applies to Hebrews 6 -- is the sin of rejecting Christ and returning to the Law.   

I believe one can 'give back' their salvation if they come to the place where they no longer believe that Jesus was God's son and rose again.     

I got saved when I was like 13'ish.   After that time, I could have let evolutionary theory or another religious teaching ruin what I knew about Christ...and come to the place where I said "Jesus was just an ordinary man...and nothing special" if I came to believe that we were just an accident of time and chance.    At that point, I believe we are once again lost.


Bandy


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## Lowjack (Nov 11, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You might want to include Saved by Grace !


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## Lowjack (Nov 11, 2009)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I've always considered these verses to very closely match Hebrews 10:26....which scared me for quite a while as a new christian.   10:26 states..."for if we sin willfully after coming to the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin, but a certain fearful looking for of judgement....."     The 'sin' referred to in this verse -- and I believe it applies to Hebrews 6 -- is the sin of rejecting Christ and returning to the Law.
> 
> I believe one can 'give back' their salvation if they come to the place where they no longer believe that Jesus was God's son and rose again.
> 
> ...


Return to the Law ? now let's meditate on this one a bit , you mean once you accept Christ you become Lawless ?

Do you as a Christian live without God's law ?

Think about this, The Entire Law is not Just 10 Commandments but 613, There are 1000 Laws Found in the New Testament.

When you accept Christ are you allow to have other gods, bow before idols, take his name in Vain, fornicate, steal and give false testimony, murder, to covet your neighbors wife, commit adultery etc ?
If the answer is no, then when did you leave the Law ?
If the answer is yes, then Christ is a minister of sin ?


Paul says in Romans 3:31, “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” A law that is established is certainly not abolished or nailed to the cross.

So, has the law been established, or has it been nailed to the cross and abolished? Obviously there is more than one type of law referred to in the New Testament.

God gave four different types of laws to the Israelites in the Old Testament. They were:

1. The Ten Commandments

2. The religious ceremonial laws

3. The health laws

4. The civil laws


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## tell sackett (Nov 11, 2009)

Would someone please tell me, seeing as how I a'int the sharpest knife in the drawer, the answer to a couple of questions?

1) Why would anyone who has truly partaken of God's mercy and grace ever want to turn their back on it? 

2) God holds His children in His hand, we don't hold Him. He seals us with the Spirit. How big a boy are you?



I forgot to add: Pore old horse


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## rjcruiser (Nov 11, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> You might want to include Saved by Grace !



Faith in what?  God's Grace.  We're on the same page on this one



Lowjack said:


> Return to the Law ? now let's meditate on this one a bit , you mean once you accept Christ you become Lawless ?
> 
> Do you as a Christian live without God's law ?



Hmmm...Stephen preached a great sermon on this very subject in Acts 7.  I recommend it for anyone who is wondering about the Law of the OT and how it applies to the New Testament Church/Christian.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Nov 11, 2009)

I think I was misunderstood....

By 'return to the Law' I meant that a Jew (or anyone who practiced Judaism) could become a Christian and then decide that Jesus wasn't what they wanted, and want to return to Judaism.    This is what Hebrews 10 was referring to....the fact that Jewish Christians wanted to return to the old system of sacrificing animals and living by the Levitical law.

Sorry for any confusion...

Bandy


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## Lowjack (Nov 11, 2009)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I think I was misunderstood....
> 
> By 'return to the Law' I meant that a Jew (or anyone who practiced Judaism) could become a Christian and then decide that Jesus wasn't what they wanted, and want to return to Judaism.    This is what Hebrews 10 was referring to....the fact that Jewish Christians wanted to return to the old system of sacrificing animals and living by the Levitical law.
> 
> ...


No trouble at all, But I must insist that Christians read about the apostles and first century Christians , they did not ceased to be Jews and that is the misconception the church has had for 2014 years and have caused Jews to reject Christianity.

If You are a say redneck do you cease to be a red neck ?
Or if you are black do you have to change your color to become a Christian ?

Those are impossibilities, since Judaism is a way of life, I'm speaking of true Jews , not those who simply are Jews because of a last name or born into a Jewish Home, but never believed in the God of Israel, so how do you expect a Jew to cease being what he was born to ?


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## Ronnie T (Nov 11, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> He is talking about anybody turning from Christ !!



I completely agree with you.
But it seems that at the time of the writing, he's specifically talking about the Jewish Christians leaving Christ for the Old law.
But yes, I agree with your statement.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Nov 11, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> No trouble at all, But I must insist that Christians read about the apostles and first century Christians , they did not ceased to be Jews and that is the misconception the church has had for 2014 years and have caused Jews to reject Christianity.
> 
> If You are a say redneck do you cease to be a red neck ?
> Or if you are black do you have to change your color to become a Christian ?
> ...



Sounds like a red herring argument!   lol    Never said that I thought Jews could change being Jews....I was referring to their religion.   

Now I'm getting confused...  lol   Think I'll bale out of this one....




Bandy


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## Ronnie T (Nov 11, 2009)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I think I was misunderstood....
> 
> By 'return to the Law' I meant that a Jew (or anyone who practiced Judaism) could become a Christian and then decide that Jesus wasn't what they wanted, and want to return to Judaism.    This is what Hebrews 10 was referring to....the fact that Jewish Christians wanted to return to the old system of sacrificing animals and living by the Levitical law.
> 
> ...



That was my point also.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 11, 2009)

Heb 6:9-11 do a lot to help understand the verses 4-6.


9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 
10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 
11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 


*And yes, we are all save by grace, and faith in Jesus Christ.  But who does that grace ultimately belong to?
Not to those who willingly turn away from Jesus Christ.


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## tell sackett (Nov 11, 2009)

Is it just me, or does it sound just a tad bit crazy to be talking about someone walking away from a personal relationship with the Giver of Life? I don't mean this as a personal attack, but I am just truly unable to grasp that idea. 

"Let's see, I have life, but I'll go back to death instead; I have light, but I think I prefer to go back to darkness." Huh??

Please notice a couple of small words in this chapter. First , the writer refers to "those" in v.4 and "they" in v.6. He isn't referring to the believers he wrote this letter to, but a different(I think maybe hypothetical, but it could well be a literal group of people) group. He refers to "you"(the hebrew christians he is writing to) in v.9 and says "..we are persuaded  better things of you..", meaning he is not implying that they may lose their salvation.

Also that little tiny word"if" at the beginning of v.6 is huge.

The writer also seems to me to be pretty emphatically stating in vs. 18-20 of this chapter that we cannot lose our salvation. 

My .02


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## Ronnie T (Nov 11, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> Is it just me, or does it sound just a tad bit crazy to be talking about someone walking away from a personal relationship with the Giver of Life? I don't mean this as a personal attack, but I am just truly unable to grasp that idea.
> 
> "Let's see, I have life, but I'll go back to death instead; I have light, but I think I prefer to go back to darkness." Huh??
> *No, what ever they do, they intelletualize that it is the perfect thing for them.
> ...



How could someone turn from Christ and then expect Christ's blood to save him?
If he turns from Christ he obviously doesn't have faith in Christ.


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## tell sackett (Nov 11, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> How could someone turn from Christ and then expect Christ's blood to save him?
> If he turns from Christ he obviously doesn't have faith in Christ.


If someone rejects Christ, they were never under the blood to start with. I think that is the writer's point in vs.4-6. Those who have heard the gospel and reject it: "For it is impossible...to renew them again unto repentance.."


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## Ronnie T (Nov 11, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> If someone rejects Christ, they were never under the blood to start with. I think that is the writer's point in vs.4-6. Those who have heard the gospel and reject it: "For it is impossible...to renew them again unto repentance.."



But in reading those scriptures, doesn't it appear that they once accepted and enjoyed life in Christ?

Heb 6:4 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 
6and then have fallen away


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## tell sackett (Nov 11, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> But in reading those scriptures, doesn't it appear that they once accepted and enjoyed life in Christ?
> 
> Heb 6:4 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
> 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
> 6and then have fallen away


No, I don't think they ever truly accepted, notice he uses the word "tasted" and not accepted or some word equivalent to that. I go back again to his use of "they" and"those", and then "you" in v.9.

I couldn't help but notice you forgot that tiny little word at the beginning of v.6


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## Ronnie T (Nov 11, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> No, I don't think they ever truly accepted, notice he uses the word "tasted" and not accepted or some word equivalent to that. I go back again to his use of "they" and"those", and then "you" in v.9.
> Yeah, would have been better if he said "eaten".
> 
> I couldn't help but notice you forgot that tiny little word at the beginning of v.6


"and?"

Speaking of verse 6, how can one fall away from something they don't have?


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## Lowjack (Nov 11, 2009)

If you are saved by believing can you not reject what you believed in at first ? Many have.

Luke 8:4-15 When a great multitude came together, and people from every city were coming to him, he spoke by a parable.  "The farmer went out to sow his seed. As he sowed, 

some fell along the road, and it was trampled under foot, 
and the birds of the sky devoured it. 
other seed fell on the rock, and as soon as it grew, it withered away, 
because it had no moisture. 
Other fell amid the thorns, and the thorns grew with it, and choked it. 
Other fell into the good ground, and grew, and brought forth fruit one hundred times." 

As he said these things, he called out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" 
Then his disciples asked him, "What does this parable mean?" 
He said, "To you it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, but to the rest in parables; that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’ 
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 


Those along the road are those who hear, then the devil comes, 
and takes away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved. 
Those on the rock are they who, when they hear, receive the word with joy 
but these have no root, who believe for a while, then fall away in time of temptation. That which fell among the thorns, these are those who have heard, 
and as they go on their way they are choked with cares, riches, 
and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 
That in the good ground, these are such as in an honest and good heart, 
having heard the word, hold it tightly, and bring forth fruit with patience. (web)

Here we see different prototypes of "Christians"
Which is the true one ?


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## tell sackett (Nov 11, 2009)

"If",that's what my "real" Bible says. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

If they taste of it and turn away, they can't be renewed. If that is what the author is saying, that's an extremely scary statement.


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## tell sackett (Nov 11, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> If you are saved by believing can you not reject what you believed in at first ? Many have.
> 
> Luke 8:4-15 When a great multitude came together, and people from every city were coming to him, he spoke by a parable.  "The farmer went out to sow his seed. As he sowed,
> 
> ...


"have no root". the good ground are those who fully believed.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Nov 11, 2009)

Salvation through Christ is a gift, as long as you want it.   

Anyone without a denominational axe to grind would agree that these scriptures are talking about one who has come to Christ, enjoyed Him for a while, (including His spirit) and then rejected Him.


Bandy


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## gtparts (Nov 11, 2009)

Just thought I would throw this in for consideration: Do you suppose we are dancing around the semantic dance floor because we have not collectively decided that there is a difference between a "head" knowledge and a "heart" knowledge? A parrot can hear and repeat; does he comprehend the meaning of his vocalization?


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## Ronnie T (Nov 11, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> "If",that's what my "real" Bible says. Sorry, I couldn't resist.
> 
> If they taste of it and turn away, they can't be renewed. If that is what the author is saying, that's an extremely scary statement.



It is a scary statement.  But remember that he's speaking of a Jew who would leave Jesus in order to return to the priest and a sacrificed animal.

But ultimately, I believe it applies to us Christians also.  That is, if we(I) walk away from Christ.  And I CAN walk away from Christ, just like that Jew could walk away from Christ.
I'm just an ol' Gentile.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 11, 2009)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Salvation through Christ is a gift, as long as you want it.
> 
> Anyone without a denominational axe to grind would agree that these scriptures are talking about one who has come to Christ, enjoyed Him for a while, (including His spirit) and then rejected Him.
> 
> ...



Me too Bandy.
And it happens far too often.


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## ddd-shooter (Nov 12, 2009)

1 Corinthians 9:
 24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 

   25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 

   26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 

   27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Hebrews 10:

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 

   27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 

   28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 

   29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 

   30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 

   31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 

39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.




Paul knew he had to work out his own salvation with fear and trembling. I think we just better make sure we run to win the prize. 
Luke 9
62And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.


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## Lowjack (Nov 12, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> 1 Corinthians 9:
> 24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
> 
> 25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
> ...



Was Paul speaking to Jews also ?


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## earl (Nov 12, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Was Paul speaking to Jews also ?





The bible doesn't speak to all ?


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## tell sackett (Nov 12, 2009)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Salvation through Christ is a gift, as long as you want it.
> 
> Anyone without a denominational axe to grind would agree that these scriptures are talking about one who has come to Christ, enjoyed Him for a while, (including His spirit) and then rejected Him.
> 
> ...


You're right, salvation is a gift of God, but I just do not believe that a person who has eaten and not just tasted would ever walk away from it.

As for the part about the denominational axes I missed that somewhere down the line.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 12, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Was Paul speaking to Jews also ?



He was speaking to Christians. Both Jewish and Gentileish.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 12, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> You're right, salvation is a gift of God, but I just do not believe that a person who has eaten and not just tasted would ever walk away from it.
> 
> As for the part about the denominational axes I missed that somewhere down the line.



I'm afraid you mistook something I stated earlier.
There is no eat/taste issue.

One has either enjoyed Jesus Christ, or they have not.


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## tell sackett (Nov 13, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I'm afraid you mistook something I stated earlier.
> There is no eat/taste issue.
> 
> One has either enjoyed Jesus Christ, or they have not.


Ronnie, I agree with you. A person can't be a "partial"(not sure if that's the exact word I'm looking for) christian. You either follow Christ fully or not at all.

In this passage, I think the writer is referring to the Hebrews(and it certainly applies to everyone) who have heard the gospel preached, and understand what it means, but have deliberately turned their backs on it.

God is absolutely long suffering in His call to the lost to come to repentance. I know He certainly was with me, I ran for many years before I came to that place of brokeness and sorrow. I give much credit to 18 years of faithful prayers from a godly wife for His patience with me, but I think a person who hardens their heart to the gospel message are the ones referred to here who can't be renewed.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Nov 13, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> In this passage, I think the writer is referring to the Hebrews(and it certainly applies to everyone) who have heard the gospel preached, and understand what it means, but have deliberately turned their backs on it.



I'd take it to mean more than that; they did more than understand....they accepted it for a while and partook of His gifts....

They accepted Jesus, then changed their minds about Him.

Bandy


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## tell sackett (Nov 13, 2009)

Let's just agree to disagree and keep our eyes on the goal.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Nov 13, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> As for the part about the denominational axes I missed that somewhere down the line.



When I mentioned denominations I was referring to christian churchs who adhere to the once-saved always saved no matter what the scriptures say about it.

Personally, I believe that one can come to Christ, be 'saved' for years, and eventually come to the point where they no longer believe that Jesus was God's son and rose from the dead.

Can I ask you guys a question?    In your opinion, how young can a child be 'saved'?

Bandy


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## tell sackett (Nov 13, 2009)

Sigh. Post #22. Written slightly tounge in cheek I admit, but still good questions none the less.

As to your question about children, that's up to the Spirit to decide.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Nov 13, 2009)

you may know what I'm getting at....but I'll  go ahead and lay it out...

I believe that most of us would agree that a child, say, 8-15, could come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.   

IMO, this same child could easily come to rejected Christ later in life....possibly due to bad experiences in church, evolutionary teaching in high school, etc.

I don't think people become Jesus zombies once they are saved...not having the ability to reject Jesus.    Too many warnings through scripture...



No offense guys....just thinking out loud mainly.

Bandy


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## farmasis (Nov 13, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Chapter and verse please ??
> Read Carefully Jesus descended to preach to the souls that died during the flood of Noah "THE ONES THAT WERE ONCE DISOBEDIENT" where does it say King David was in Gehenna
> Second , who was in Paradise with Eleazar ( Lazarus) ? Abraham was running things in Paradise.


 
You don't think David was disobedient?

Do you think it is possible to deny the deity of Jesus and be obedient to God?


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## farmasis (Nov 13, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Then would you please give me a verse by verse discription of what the writer is saying in these particular verses?
> Verse by verse.
> And he's talking about Jewish Christians turning from Christ.


 
*<SUP>4</SUP>* For _it is_ impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 

...it is IMPOSSIBLE for those saved

<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-30046>*5*</SUP> and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 

...those truely saved

<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-30047>*6*</SUP> if they fall away,<SUP class=footnote value='[b]' sizcache="3" sizset="35">[b]</SUP> to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put _Him_ to an open shame. 

..to be unsaved, because Christ would have to die again for their redemption.


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## tell sackett (Nov 13, 2009)

No, I didn't become a "Jesus zombie", I became a child of the King. What in this sorry old world can compare to that?I do think that a person who has accepted Christ as their savior can backslide and be out of fellowship with God. If a person can reject their belief, what do we do with Phil.1:6? Is God not able to complete what He has begun? I cannot think of many things more horrible than going through life each day not knowing with certainty that God holds me and He has promised in his Word to never let me go. I don't have the strength to hold onto Him, but His grace is sufficient


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## BANDERSNATCH (Nov 13, 2009)

farmasis said:


> *<SUP>4</SUP>* For _it is_ impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
> 
> ...it is IMPOSSIBLE for those saved
> 
> ...



It is impossible.......TO RENEW THEM TO REPENTENCE....not impossible for the saved to reject Him.

Am I one of the few that takes these verses to be a warning?

Bandy


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## gtparts (Nov 13, 2009)

farmasis said:


> *<SUP>4</SUP>* For _it is_ impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
> 
> ...it is IMPOSSIBLE for those saved
> 
> ...





tell sackett said:


> No, I didn't become a "Jesus zombie", I became a child of the King. What in this sorry old world can compare to that?I do think that a person who has accepted Christ as their savior can backslide and be out of fellowship with God. If a person can reject their belief, what do we do with Phil.1:6? Is God not able to complete what He has begun? I cannot think of many things more horrible than going through life each day not knowing with certainty that God holds me and He has promised in his Word to never let me go. I don't have the strength to hold onto Him, but His grace is sufficent.





BANDERSNATCH said:


> It is impossible.......TO RENEW THEM TO REPENTENCE....not impossible for the saved to reject Him.
> 
> Am I one of the few that takes these verses to be a warning?
> 
> Bandy



Sorry, bandy, but I understand Scriture to say "ISAS", not because I am capable of keeping His salvation, but because I, like Paul, "am utterly convinced that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him, to the end of time." God's word says it, I believe it, and for me, that settles it.


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## tell sackett (Nov 13, 2009)

Bandy, I intended in my last post to say: no offense taken and if I have offended, I apologize.


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## farmasis (Nov 13, 2009)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> It is impossible.......TO RENEW THEM TO REPENTENCE....not impossible for the saved to reject Him.
> 
> Am I one of the few that takes these verses to be a warning?
> 
> Bandy


 
I think the interpretation of this passage boils down to how much of a part we believe we have in salvation.

I think it is the work of God, and we only accept or reject the free gift of grace. After that, I believe it is out of my control. Now, grace is irresistable. It is God who seals us unto redemption as a guarantee of our inheritance. It is God that started the work of salvation in you and will bring it to completion. That is a promise in Phil 1:6.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 13, 2009)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I'd take it to mean more than that; they did more than understand....they accepted it for a while and partook of His gifts....
> 
> They accepted Jesus, then changed their minds about Him.
> 
> Bandy




Very Very Clear to me also.


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## ddd-shooter (Nov 13, 2009)

OSAS or ISAS is a flawed doctrine. 
Most verses used to support it speak of God's faithfulness. Of course God is faithful to give us grace and mercy to live out our salvation. But he is also not willing that any should perish, does that mean all will be saved? No. It simply means that if you choose Christ, God will always be there to guide you through, up until you take your eyes off the path and no longer follow him. 
To use Paul's analogy: If you deicide to run the race, God will give you strength to do so-as long as you keep running God will be there and finish with you. Your name is in the Book of Life. If you quit running for the prize, he will take no pleasure in you and blot out your name from the book. 
Scriptures below are pretty self-explanatory. 

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

1 Corinthians 9:
24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain
27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Hebrews 10:
38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 
39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Luke 9:
62And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Phillipians 2:
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Revelation 3:
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels


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## tell sackett (Nov 13, 2009)

Let's see, should I load up my plane with scripture bombs and fly over ddd's territory? Nah, that old horse has been bombed to a pile of goo already.


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## farmasis (Nov 13, 2009)

I like dropping bombs....

OSAS is a biblical truth. Otherwise, we are saved by works. Keep in mind, this also is Paul, so unless he was bipolar, Paul knows that you cannot lose your salvation.

God does all the work of salvation, and we are not stronger than God.

*<SUP>29</SUP>* For whom He foreknew, He also predestined _to be_ conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28143>*30*</SUP> Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. 

*<SUP>33</SUP>* Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? _It is_ God who justifies. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28147>*34*</SUP> Who _is_ he who condemns? _It is_ Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28148>*35*</SUP> Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? _Shall_ tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28149>*36*</SUP> As it is written: 


_“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;_
_ We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”_<SUP class=footnote value='[c]' sizcache="3" sizset="36">[c]</SUP>

<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28150>*37*</SUP> Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28151>*38*</SUP> For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28152>*39*</SUP> nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8)



*John 10:28
*<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-26506>*28*</SUP> And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
*Romans 6:23
*<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28088>*23*</SUP> For the wages of sin _is_ death, but the gift of God _is_ eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
*1 John 2:25
*<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-30572>*25*</SUP> And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life. 
*1 John 5:11
*<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-30632>*11*</SUP> And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
*1 John 5:13
*<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-30634>*13*</SUP> These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life,<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> and that you may _continue to_ believe in the name of the Son of God.
*John 3:16
* <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-26127>*16*</SUP>"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
*John 3:36
*<SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-26147>*36*</SUP>Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP>
*John 5:24
* <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-26224>*24*</SUP>"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
*John 6:40
*<SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-26287>*40*</SUP>For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
*John 6:47
*<SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-26294>*47*</SUP>I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
*Romans 6:22
*<SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-28076>*22*</SUP>But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
*1 Peter 1:3-5*
 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-30362>*3*</SUP>Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-30363>*4*</SUP>and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-30364>*5*</SUP>who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
*Ephesians 1:13* 
<SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-29204>*13*</SUP>And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
*Ephesians 4:30* 
<SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-29287>*30*</SUP>And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
*Psalm 37:28*
 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-14479>*28*</SUP> For the LORD loves justice,
         And does not forsake His saints; 
         They are preserved forever, 
*2 Corinthians 5:17* 
<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28891>*17*</SUP> Therefore, if anyone _is_ in Christ, _he is_ a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
         But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

(More later-- gotta go hunt....)


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## ddd-shooter (Nov 13, 2009)

Yes, eternal life for those who believe. No surprise there. 
The word 'believe' is the greek verb for faith. It conveys more than simple belief. It means to trust, rely on, and adhere to. Notice the last part. You must adhere to God. You cannot cry in the altar, "believe there is a God" and go to heaven. You must remain faithful to him...
"For without faith, it is impossible to please him."

Paul says nothing can come between you and the love of God. I agree. God's love is there for ANYONE who will accept it. Only YOU (as a free moral agent) can separate yourself from God's love...
How? By being lukewarm (Laodicean church), by not keeping yourself ready for the coming of Christ (parable of 10 virgins), by putting your hand on the plow and looking back (remember Lot's wife). Read the warnings from Christ to the BELIEVERS at Ephesus, Pergamos, Sardis, etc... in Revelation 2-3. What does he say? REPENT!!! 
I thought believers could not be separated from God, could not fall?  

Revelation 3
16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 

But wait? I thought OSAS? Being vomited out of his mouth is pretty clear. 
There MUST be fruit following a believer. Jesus says this himself. It is not a works salvation, but evidence of the salvation. 

Matthew 7:
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 

   14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 

   15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 

   16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 

   17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 

   18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 

   19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 

   20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 

   21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 

   22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 

   23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 

   24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:


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## Ronnie T (Nov 13, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I like dropping bombs....
> 
> OSAS is a biblical truth. Otherwise, we are saved by works.
> That's an incorrect statement.  OSAS is not a biblical truth, and we are not saved by works.  We are saved by faith.
> ...




Rather than listing your own scripture, how bout explaining away the scripture that triple d posted.


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## farmasis (Nov 13, 2009)

OSAS is a biblical truth. Otherwise, we are saved by works. 
That's an incorrect statement. OSAS is not a biblical truth, and we are not saved by works. We are saved by faith.

..and we are not kept by works either.

Keep in mind, this also is Paul, so unless he was bipolar, Paul knows that you cannot lose your salvation.This why does Paul speak of loosing his?

He doesn't.


God does all the work of salvation, and we are not stronger than God.No, but God allows us the power to go against His will

First I have ever heard a Christian, much less a pastor say our will supercedes God's. Not sure what to say.


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## farmasis (Nov 13, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Yes, eternal life for those who believe. No surprise there.
> The word 'believe' is the greek verb for faith. It conveys more than simple belief. It means to trust, rely on, and adhere to. Notice the last part. You must adhere to God. You cannot cry in the altar, "believe there is a God" and go to heaven. You must remain faithful to him...
> "For without faith, it is impossible to please him."


 




> Paul says nothing can come between you and the love of God. I agree. God's love is there for ANYONE who will accept it. Only YOU (as a free moral agent) can separate yourself from God's love...


 
Nothing means you also. You can't do it. Is your love for your children so conditional that you would stop loving them if they turn their back on you? I hope not.



> How? By being lukewarm (Laodicean church), by not keeping yourself ready for the coming of Christ (parable of 10 virgins), by putting your hand on the plow and looking back (remember Lot's wife). Read the warnings from Christ to the BELIEVERS at Ephesus, Pergamos, Sardis, etc... in Revelation 2-3. What does he say? REPENT!
> 
> I thought believers could not be separated from God, could not fall?
> 
> ...


 
Nothing there means you lose your salvation. You can lose your testimony, blessings, favor, but not your salvation, It is secure.



> Matthew 7:
> 13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
> 
> 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
> ...


 
Yep, few will find salvation. Verses are pointless to this conversation, however.


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## ddd-shooter (Nov 13, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Keep in mind, this also is Paul, so unless he was bipolar, Paul knows that you cannot lose your salvation.This why does Paul speak of loosing his?
> 
> He doesn't.


1 Corinthians 9
27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.




> God does all the work of salvation, and we are not stronger than God.No, but God allows us the power to go against His will
> 
> First I have ever heard a Christian, much less a pastor say our will supercedes God's. Not sure what to say.



Ever hear of Adam and Eve? Salvation? We have free will. We can choose...
2 Peter 3:
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 





farmasis said:


> Nothing means you also. You can't do it. Is your love for your children so conditional that you would stop loving them if they turn their back on you? I hope not.
> Nothing there means you lose your salvation. You can lose your testimony, blessings, favor, but not your salvation, It is secure.
> Yep, few will find salvation. Verses are pointless to this conversation, however.



Verses had better be at the center of any Christian debate. 
So when Jesus talks of the 10 virgins who had no oil in their lamps they just lost their testimony? 
And the churches in Revelation that he tells to repent just lost their blessings? Being vomited out of the mouth of Jesus just signals a lack of favor? 
My children? What does God say about his Children? 

Romans 8:
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


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## farmasis (Nov 13, 2009)

...more proof of eternal security

2 Tomothy 4
*<SUP>18</SUP>* And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve _me_ for His heavenly kingdom. To Him _be_ glory forever and ever. Amen!

John 17:11 
<SUP id=en-NKJV-26767 class=versenum>*11*</SUP> Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> that they may be one as We _are._

2 Timothy 1
*<SUP>12</SUP>* For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

John 6:37
*<SUP>37</SUP>* All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Titus 3:5-7
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-29925 class=versenum>*5*</SUP> not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, <SUP id=en-NKJV-29926 class=versenum>*6*</SUP> whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, <SUP id=en-NKJV-29927 class=versenum>*7*</SUP> that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Psalms 136
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16198 class=versenum>*1*</SUP> Oh, give thanks to the LORD, for _He is_ good!
         For His mercy _endures_ forever.
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16199 class=versenum>*2*</SUP> Oh, give thanks to the God of gods!
         For His mercy _endures_ forever.
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16200 class=versenum>*3*</SUP> Oh, give thanks to the Lord of lords!
         For His mercy _endures_ forever: 

 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16201 class=versenum>*4*</SUP> To Him who alone does great wonders,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever;
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16202 class=versenum>*5*</SUP> To Him who by wisdom made the heavens,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever;
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16203 class=versenum>*6*</SUP> To Him who laid out the earth above the waters,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever;
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16204 class=versenum>*7*</SUP> To Him who made great lights,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever—
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16205 class=versenum>*8*</SUP> The sun to rule by day,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever;
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16206 class=versenum>*9*</SUP> The moon and stars to rule by night,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever. 

 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16207 class=versenum>*10*</SUP> To Him who struck Egypt in their firstborn,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever;
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16208 class=versenum>*11*</SUP> And brought out Israel from among them,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever;
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16209 class=versenum>*12*</SUP> With a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever;
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16210 class=versenum>*13*</SUP> To Him who divided the Red Sea in two,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever;
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16211 class=versenum>*14*</SUP> And made Israel pass through the midst of it,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever;
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16212 class=versenum>*15*</SUP> But overthrew Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever;
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16213 class=versenum>*16*</SUP> To Him who led His people through the wilderness,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever;
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16214 class=versenum>*17*</SUP> To Him who struck down great kings,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever;
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16215 class=versenum>*18*</SUP> And slew famous kings,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever—
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16216 class=versenum>*19*</SUP> Sihon king of the Amorites,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever;
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16217 class=versenum>*20*</SUP> And Og king of Bashan,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever—
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16218 class=versenum>*21*</SUP> And gave their land as a heritage,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever;
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16219 class=versenum>*22*</SUP> A heritage to Israel His servant,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever. 

 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16220 class=versenum>*23*</SUP> Who remembered us in our lowly state,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever;
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16221 class=versenum>*24*</SUP> And rescued us from our enemies,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever;
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16222 class=versenum>*25*</SUP> Who gives food to all flesh,
         For His mercy _endures_ forever. 

 <SUP id=en-NKJV-16223 class=versenum>*26*</SUP> Oh, give thanks to the God of heaven!
         For His mercy _endures_ forever.

Titus 1:2
*<SUP>2</SUP>* in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 

Hebrews 10:17
*<SUP>17</SUP>* _then He adds,_ _“Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”_

_Romans 6:2-7_
*<SUP>2</SUP>* Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? *<SUP>3</SUP>* Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? *<SUP>4</SUP>* Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
*<SUP>5</SUP>* For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be _in the likeness_ of _His_ resurrection, *<SUP>6</SUP>* knowing this, that our old man was crucified with _Him,_ that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. *<SUP>7</SUP>* For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Hebrews 9:12
*<SUP>12</SUP>* Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Hebrews 13:20-21
*<SUP>20</SUP>* Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, <SUP id=en-NKJV-30259 class=versenum>*21*</SUP> make you complete in every good work to do His will,

Jude 24
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-30693 class=versenum>*24*</SUP> Now to Him who is able to keep you<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> from stumbling, 
      And to present _you_ faultless 
      Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, 

Ephesians 5:30
*<SUP>30</SUP>* For we are members of His body,<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> of His flesh and of His bones.

Hebrews 12:2
*<SUP>2</SUP>* looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of _our_ faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.


----------



## furtaker (Nov 13, 2009)

For those of you who do NOT believe in OSAS...

Where are you going when you die?  How can you know?

You can't know because you have no idea if you will lose it or not.

It's kinda like "daisy" theology...He loves me, He loves me not, He loves me...


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## farmasis (Nov 13, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> 1 Corinthians 9
> 27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


 
Paul was striving for a crown to lay at the feet of Jesus when his salvation came. Not competing for salvation.



> Ever hear of Adam and Eve? Salvation? We have free will. We can choose...
> 2 Peter 3:
> The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


 
Exactly! It is God's will for us to chose salvation. Then He will kept our salvation intact. Ronnie said we can supercedes God's will can give it back. No way.



> Verses had better be at the center of any Christian debate.


 
Yep, and I gave about 50-60.



> So when Jesus talks of the 10 virgins who had no oil in their lamps they just lost their testimony?


 
Nope, they did not prepare themeselves to go out and seek the bridegroom.



> And the churches in Revelation that he tells to repent just lost their blessings? Being vomited out of the mouth of Jesus just signals a lack of favor?


 
Yes.



> My children? What does God say about his Children?


 
*<SUP>11</SUP>* If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! (Matt 7)


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## farmasis (Nov 13, 2009)

*<SUP>8</SUP>* But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28053 class=versenum>*9*</SUP> Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28054 class=versenum>*10*</SUP> For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (Romans 5:8-10)

*<SUP>16</SUP>* Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. <SUP id=en-NKJV-30280 class=versenum>*17*</SUP> Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. <SUP id=en-NKJV-30281 class=versenum>*18*</SUP> Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. (James 1:16-18)

*<SUP>16</SUP>* And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— <SUP id=en-NKJV-26682 class=versenum>*17*</SUP> the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. (John 14:16-17)


 <SUP id=en-NKJV-7249 class=versenum>*8*</SUP> He raises the poor from the dust
_And_ lifts the beggar from the ash heap, 
To set _them_ among princes 
      And make them inherit the throne of glory. 

      “For the pillars of the earth _are_ the LORD’s, 
      And He has set the world upon them.  <SUP id=en-NKJV-7250 class=versenum>*9*</SUP> He will guard the feet of His saints,
      But the wicked shall be silent in darkness. (1 Samuel 2:8-9)

*<SUP>38</SUP>* They shall be My people, and I will be their God; <SUP id=en-NKJV-19767 class=versenum>*39*</SUP> then I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever, for the good of them and their children after them. <SUP id=en-NKJV-19768 class=versenum>*40*</SUP> And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me. (Jeremiah 32:38-40)

*<SUP>18</SUP>* The LORD knows the days of the upright,
         And their inheritance shall be forever.
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-14474 class=versenum>*23*</SUP> The steps of a _good_ man are ordered by the LORD,
         And He delights in his way.
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-14475 class=versenum>*24*</SUP> Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down;
         For the LORD upholds _him with_ His hand. 
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-14479 class=versenum>*28*</SUP> For the LORD loves justice,
         And does not forsake His saints; 
They are preserved forever,
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-14484 class=versenum>*33*</SUP> The LORD will not leave him in his hand,
  Nor condemn him when he is judged. 
*<SUP>39</SUP>* But the salvation of the righteous _is_ from the LORD;
_He is_ their strength in the time of trouble.
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-14491 class=versenum>*40*</SUP> And the LORD shall help them and deliver them;
         He shall deliver them from the wicked, 
         And save them, 
         Because they trust in Him. (excepts from Psalms 37)


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## ddd-shooter (Nov 13, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Paul was striving for a crown to lay at the feet of Jesus when his salvation came. Not competing for salvation.



"Castaway" does not imply he was competing. Jesus said those who he never knew would be "cast" into the lake of fire. "Castaway" in no way hints at a crown, and to argue such is silliness. 





> Exactly! It is God's will for us to chose salvation. Then He will kept our salvation intact. Ronnie said we can supercedes God's will can give it back. No way.



Ummmm, if we can reject God's will as it pertains to salvation, we can also reject it after acceptance. 





> Yep, and I gave about 50-60.


Simply because a verse contains 'forever' or 'eternal' does not mean it implies you are saved forever. As I said before, it simply means God is always faithful or if you overcome until the end, you will be with him forever. 





> Nope, they did not prepare themeselves to go out and seek the bridegroom.


 
Exactly, they had lamps, they had oil; but they were not ready for Jesus to come back. Sounds like a parable. Maybe they cried at an altar one time, but they let their lamps go out. Thus, they were not ready for the bridegroom. 
Matthew 25:
11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 
12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 

Sound like another parable you know? 

Again, 'vomit' is another bold word. If you are vomited out of Jesus' mouth, do you think he will act like a fool and eat his own vomit again?


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## ddd-shooter (Nov 13, 2009)

brentus said:


> For those of you who do NOT believe in OSAS...
> 
> Where are you going when you die?  How can you know?
> 
> ...



I do not doubt the love of God. 

I think I will take a opinion like Paul, the "least" of all apostles and will work out my salvation with fear and trembling. I want to run the race to obtain the prize; and I want to hear "well done," not "depart from me...."


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## ddd-shooter (Nov 13, 2009)

Who do you think Jesus is referring to here at the judgement? Hindus? Buddhists? It sounds like these people did things in HIS NAME, yet he never knew them...

Matthew 7:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 

   22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 

   23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 13, 2009)

farmasis said:


> OSAS is a biblical truth. Otherwise, we are saved by works.
> That's an incorrect statement. OSAS is not a biblical truth, and we are not saved by works. We are saved by faith.
> 
> ..and we are not kept by works either.
> ...



I'll says it again.....  God allows us the ability to go against His will.  
God's kingdom is filled with people who gave themselves to God, in faith.
God never has to say, "They obey me because I forced them to."

God wants to say: "They obey me because of my goodness and my grace and mercy."

*God chose Israel as His Nation.  His chosen people.  Then he promised them a new land that he would give to them................ Then he ALLOWED those very people to corrupt themselves so they died in the desert rather than the promised land.

Finally, I'm the first at something.


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## farmasis (Nov 13, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> I do not doubt the love of God.
> 
> I think I will take a opinion like Paul, the "least" of all apostles and will work out my salvation with fear and trembling. I want to run the race to obtain the prize; and I want to hear "well done," not depart from me....


 
*<SUP>12</SUP>* Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; (Phil. 2)

Is Paul telling us to work out our salvation?
<SUP id=en-NKJV-29401 class=versenum></SUP> 
<SUP class=versenum>*13*</SUP> for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for _His_ good pleasure. (Phil. 2)

How did he open the letter?

*<SUP>3</SUP>* I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, <SUP id=en-NKJV-29362 class=versenum>*4*</SUP> always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, <SUP id=en-NKJV-29363 class=versenum>*5*</SUP> for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, <SUP id=en-NKJV-29364 class=versenum>*6*</SUP> being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete _it_ until the day of Jesus Christ; (Phil. 1)

So, what work do we do?


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## farmasis (Nov 13, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I'll says it again..... God allows us the ability to go against His will.
> God's kingdom is filled with people who gave themselves to God, in faith.
> God never has to say, "They obey me because I forced them to."
> 
> ...


 
We are not talking about the ability to choose his gift of grace. You are saying that we can pry his hand open and remove ourselves against his will to keep us. Or than we are stong enough to remove the seal of the Holy Spirit and remove him from us, although it is God's will for the Holy Spirit to remain in us forever. We are not stonger than god and he does not give us the ability to give back our salvation.


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## ddd-shooter (Nov 14, 2009)

farmasis said:


> We are not talking about the ability to choose his gift of grace. You are saying that we can pry his hand open and remove ourselves against his will to keep us. Or than we are stong enough to remove the seal of the Holy Spirit and remove him from us, although it is God's will for the Holy Spirit to remain in us forever. We are not stonger than god and he does not give us the ability to give back our salvation.



To say we can choose to be saved, yet say we have no choice after we make that decision makes no sense. "You have a choice, but only until you make the choice."
That is talking out of both sides of your mouth. 
Why doesn't God force us to be saved? The same reason he does not force us to stay saved. 
Just because GOD will remain faithful to the end doesn't mean WE will remain faithful...
If we had no ability to overcome God's 'will,' we would be in the garden walking with him in the cool of the day.


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## tell sackett (Nov 14, 2009)

Ya'll please tell me why anyone who has been adopted into the family of God would ever turn their back on it.

I am so glad the Father holds me in His loving hands and nothing or no one can remove me. I love Him because He first loved me.


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## thedeacon (Nov 14, 2009)

The important point we need to pay attention to is this;

If you reject Christ you are lost. Lost, Lost, Lost. Rejection of 
Christ = lost. That is what the bible says. It's not that important what condition you were in before you reject Christ, what is important to what condition you were in when you leave this earth. You can't reject Christ and get away with it. God's Grace does not reach that far.

He is strict concerning his commandments. 

If you love me you will keep my commandments.


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## farmasis (Nov 14, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> To say we can choose to be saved, yet say we have no choice after we make that decision makes no sense. "You have a choice, but only until you make the choice."
> That is talking out of both sides of your mouth.
> Why doesn't God force us to be saved? The same reason he does not force us to stay saved.


 
Because we have no say so in the salvation process. We only choose to accept grace. Once we do that, God completes the regeneration process and we are a new creature. The old is gone. 

Can a leopard change his spots? He can think he is no longer a leopard or deny he is one, but he is still one.

God seals us using the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit remains in us forever. We begin the transformation process to be like Jesus.



> Just because GOD will remain faithful to the end doesn't mean WE will remain faithful...


 
Praise God that he is faithful.
*<SUP>30</SUP>* For we are members of His body,<SUP class=footnote value='[d]'>[d]</SUP> of His flesh and of His bones. (Ephesians 5)

<SUP id=en-NIV-29825 class=versenum>*13*</SUP>if we are faithless, 
      he will remain faithful, 
      for he cannot disown himself. (2 Timothy 2)



> If we had no ability to overcome God's 'will,' we would be in the garden walking with him in the cool of the day.


 
If it was God's will that man had no ability to fall, Adam and Eve would not have fallen. Do you believe in the sovereignty of God at all?


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## farmasis (Nov 14, 2009)

Deacon, ddd, and Ronnie.....

Is Peter in hades?


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## ddd-shooter (Nov 14, 2009)

I believe God has yielded his sovereignty on earth to us. He did so in the Garden, and Jesus gave us the ability to use the power his father gave him.  

I cannot say where anyone, including Peter, went after they died. I would guess God does not want us to worry where anyone went when they died. 
I do know one thing, Jesus DID go to heaven, and I want to make sure I stay faithful so I can join him one day...


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## thedeacon (Nov 14, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Deacon, ddd, and Ronnie.....
> 
> Is Peter in hades?



Did anyone even suggest that you can't repent of your sins? 

I think not, your question is absurd to say the "least"


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## farmasis (Nov 14, 2009)

thedeacon said:


> Did anyone even suggest that you can't repent of your sins?
> 
> I think not, your question is absurd to say the "least"


 
What is this thread about?

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,* to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 

So, you can reject Jesus and come back under grace again through repentance?*


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## farmasis (Nov 14, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> I believe God has yielded his sovereignty on earth to us. He did so in the Garden, and Jesus gave us the ability to use the power his father gave him.
> 
> I cannot say where anyone, including Peter, went after they died. I would guess God does not want us to worry where anyone went when they died.
> I do know one thing, Jesus DID go to heaven, and I want to make sure I stay faithful so I can join him one day...


 
Yikes, God is not sovereign on earth, man is???
Wonder what Jonah thinks of that statement...

*<SUP>11</SUP>* Yours, O LORD, _is_ the greatness,
      The power and the glory, 
      The victory and the majesty; 
For all _that is_ in heaven and in earth _is Yours;_
      Yours _is_ the kingdom, O LORD, 
And You are exalted as head over all. 
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-11177 class=versenum>*12*</SUP> Both riches and honor _come_ from You,
 And You reign over all. 
      In Your hand _is_ power and might; 
      In Your hand _it is_ to make great 
      And to give strength to all. ( 1 Chronicles 29)
*<SUP></SUP>* 
*<SUP>35</SUP>* All the inhabitants of the earth _are_ reputed as nothing; 
He does according to His will in the army of heaven 
      And _among_ the inhabitants of the earth. 
      No one can restrain His hand 
      Or say to Him, “What have You done?” (Daniel 4)

 <SUP id=en-NIV-16947 class=versenum>*21*</SUP> Many are the plans in a man's heart, 
but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails. (Proverbs 19)





It is nice to know for sure that it can never be taken away.


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## thedeacon (Nov 14, 2009)

farmasis said:


> What is this thread about?
> 
> 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,* to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
> 
> So, you can reject Jesus and come back under grace again through repentance?*


*

By Jove I believe he finally got it.*


----------



## StriperAddict (Nov 14, 2009)

God knows them that are His.

What great encouragement.  We don't know, but _GOD DOES_...

I think when we get to eternity it'll all make sense why some of the most devout looking religious folk just never came to the Spiritual Regeneration the scripture speaks of.  Even also, the folks that once looked as if they belonged to the Lord, but then confirm the strong rebuke of the Hebrews Ch 6 verses, and actually are not "His".  

But in the end, it is God, who knows them that are (His), and those that are, are sealed until the day of redemption.  Both the Heb 6 rebuke and the consolation of the Spirit of Grace should make any follower of the Gift of Life most grateful.  Otherwise, daily... we would all be in a state of "loosing it".  But there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.  
Those known of God.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 14, 2009)

farmasis said:


> We are not talking about the ability to choose his gift of grace. You are saying that we can pry his hand open and remove ourselves against his will to keep us. Or than we are stong enough to remove the seal of the Holy Spirit and remove him from us, although it is God's will for the Holy Spirit to remain in us forever. We are not stonger than god and he does not give us the ability to give back our salvation.




Hey, it's God's will that ALL be saved........ but they aren't.


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## farmasis (Nov 14, 2009)

farmasis said:
			
		

> So, you can reject Jesus and come back under grace again through repentance?


 


thedeacon said:


> By Jove I believe he finally got it.


 
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,* to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 

*


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## farmasis (Nov 14, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Hey, it's God's will that ALL be saved........ but they aren't.


 
Big difference in what God desires and what He wills..

*<SUP>3</SUP>* For this _is_ good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, <SUP id=en-NKJV-29717 class=versenum>*4*</SUP> who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2)


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## gtparts (Nov 14, 2009)

God set the rules. If He says that He will not allow His Son to be crucified a second time for the sake of one who accepts, then rejects, and then wants to reverse course again, that is good enough for me. Now here is where it gets sticky. As a Christian, I find it extremely difficult to believe someone who is "in Christ" could ever want to be "outside of Christ" as he or she was prior to their relationship "in Christ". But even if they should want out, God's Word says that they don't have that option because their salvation is preserved by the promise of a sovereign God. If God promised it, He won't break it.....even if we think He should. Ain't God good!!  If that isn't grace, I don't know what is.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 14, 2009)

farmasis said:


> 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,* to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
> 
> *


*

Farmasis, I compare these three verses to the parable of the prodigal son.

*The prodigal son returned home.  The statements he made and his subsequent return home was indicators of his repentance.  His father welcomed him and celebrated his return.

*In the above three verses, Jewish Christians had left Christ.  Returned to their priest and sacrifices.  They could not repent.  Why?  They no longer trusted in Christ for salvation.  They no longer depended on Christ for salvation.
Christ can forgive anyone, except those who don't seek forgiveness in Him.

I'll say this as I bow out of this subject for this time.  
Jesus Christ will see to the salvation of anyone who seeks Him.  
With all of their sins and misunderstandings.
*


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## hayseed_theology (Nov 15, 2009)

farmasis said:


> *<SUP>4</SUP>* For _it is_ impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
> 
> ...it is IMPOSSIBLE for those saved
> 
> ...




This is the interpretation that Spurgeon takes.  I struggled with it until reading his sermon on it.  He argues that it is actually one of the strongest passages supporting perseverance of the saints.


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## hayseed_theology (Nov 15, 2009)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> you may know what I'm getting at....but I'll  go ahead and lay it out...
> 
> I believe that most of us would agree that a child, say, 8-15, could come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
> 
> ...




1Jn 2:19  "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

I think it's a bold statement to say that you know someone has come to "a saving knowledge of Christ."  

When I see this sort of thing happen, it is normally because a person has made a public profession of belief in Christ (raising a hand, coming forward during a post-sermonic altar call, or even baptism) but there is no evidence of the regenerating work of the Spirit in their lives.  Often what I observe is that an evangelist, following an incomplete presentation of the gospel, will manipulate people to raise their hand if they prayed "the sinner's prayer," and then Pope-ishly declare all who raised their hands to have eternal life.  Then 10 yrs down the road, after a steady diet of shallow youth meetings, when the child steps out of the Christian bubble, he is choked out by the thorns.  He leaves the church never to return.  But his folks take confidence that "once saved, always saved."

This child did not have any fruit or signs of regeneration.  Men are not saved because they have a date written in the front of their red lettered NIV.  They are saved by grace through faith in Christ.  I hold to eternal security, but I would not say "once saved, always saved."  I think perseverance of the saints best accounts for the passages that indicate God's omnipotence, faithfulness, and purpose of election while still maintaining the warning passages are meaningful.


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## ddd-shooter (Nov 16, 2009)

hayseed_theology said:


> 1Jn 2:19  "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
> 
> I think it's a bold statement to say that you know someone has come to "a saving knowledge of Christ."
> 
> ...



I agree 100%. Well said.


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## Lowjack (Nov 16, 2009)

farmasis said:


> You don't think David was disobedient?
> 
> Do you think it is possible to deny the deity of Jesus and be obedient to God?



The Verse is very Specific it says those who perished during the flood.
Everyone has being dissobedient.


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## Lowjack (Nov 16, 2009)

According to Jesus, one can come to saving Knowledge but yet the devil can steal the word from you.
another can come to saving Knowledge and yet fall away and follow the way of the World such as riches etc.

Just re-read the parable of the sower and you will understand, that not all who say Lord ,Lord, will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Many people in church know about christ but do not know The Christ.
Many People say they believe in God but so does the devil and he trembles.

Many say they believe in God, But Do not Believe God.


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## stevo15 (Nov 16, 2009)

In John 10:28-30, Jesus says: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 16, 2009)

stevo15 said:


> In John 10:28-30, Jesus says: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one.




*You should include all the verses.

John 10:24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 
25Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 
26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 
27"*My sheep hear My voice*, and I know them, and *they follow Me*; 
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 
29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 
30"I and the Father are one." 
31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 

*If you are His sheep and are following Him, you have nothing to worry about.
The blood of Jesus will continue to cleanse you, I, and all other followers.


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## farmasis (Nov 17, 2009)

What exactly constitutes not following God or turning your back on Jesus?

When we sin, are we not being disobedient, and choosing our fleshly desires or following the world and not he Holy Sprit in us?

What about backsliding?
Is it a certain number of sins or fewer bigger ones that seperate us from God? Or is it a time element?

Am I not understanding the opposition? It seems some are convinced that we can lose our salvation, and that we need repentance for restoration. How do you harmonize that with the verses in question?


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## stevo15 (Nov 17, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> *You should include all the verses.
> 
> John 10:24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
> 25Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
> ...




I posted 28-30.  Don't see that including the other verses changed much.  Either way...I think it's obvious what it is saying


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