# what do you think a person  should have to do before they can legally breed



## lee hanson (Jul 15, 2010)

and what do think should happen if you are caught  illegally breeding ?the reason i ask is i noticed the other day that their  was a 15  year old kid on here trying to pimp out his pup .when i asked why i was told the pup had to earn his keep he couldn't afford to feed him.............i for one  am not for making a bunch of laws so what do we do.when other cant exercise good judgment and the animals are paying for it


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## JuliaH (Jul 15, 2010)

I should leave this alone...lol. But, I do have some opinions, so will share them 

1. A breeder outta have a nice kennel setup or the dogs in the house, and be state licensed as a breeder or kennel. 

2. A breeder outta keep up with AKC records (or whatever registry is used) and have paperwork completed and in hand before any sales of pups. I do not and would not breed mixed breed dogs. There are too many of those and some purebreds in shelters and pounds now. 

3. Health clearances should be done for your particular breed. I don't do all the ones for my breed, but at 2 years of age, ALL my breeders have their hips x-rayed for OFFA clearances. 

4. If you can't afford to feed them well, not just the cheapest food, you don't need animals in the first place. 

5. Clean facility. Period.

6. If you are raising working dogs or hunting dogs, they should be tested or competed, or be up front with folks that a particular dog might not have been hunted, trialed, hunt tested, etc.  

7. Have your pedigrees and your bloodlines worked out so that if you are doing anything more than strict outcrossing, you know what you are doing... (this comment from years of being a horse breeder).

8. Shots and deworming up to date on all dogs and pups. 

There are probably more but these are the main things I do on a regular basis.

Julia


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## K9SAR (Jul 15, 2010)

In Utopia...

A common sense and intelligence test for the breeders.

P.S. ^ That goes for humans breeding AND humans breeding animals!


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## zzweims (Jul 15, 2010)

I don't think there should be any laws.  But if there were just one that would cut down on crappy breeding practises, it would be to require all breeders to take a puppy back--any time, any reason


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## Gabby (Jul 15, 2010)

No rules, regulations, officers, dues, or formal affiliations. It's more a state of mind. (Henry S. Johnson jr.)
Once you open the door for rules and regulation then you are getting dangerously close to what PETA, Humane Society, and a lot of other groups want - to stop breeding altogether !
I look at it like this - If you want to buy a cheap dog then that's what you get - a cheap dog! 
I always looked for the best pup I could afford. Talked to the breeder. Studied and got to know the Pedigree. Went and looked at the sire&dam and the kennels. Ask around about the breeder. Kept in touch with the breeder and told them of my plans - most of the time, if the breeder knows you are sincere they will work with you to help you get a good pup. Make sure the pup is wormed and shots up to date and the rest is up to you.
Gabby
K9SAR - Yup, in a perfect world - agree 100% !!!


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## Georgia Hard Hunter (Jul 15, 2010)

What Gabby said.....x2


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## Gabby (Jul 15, 2010)

Just saw an add in the "for sale section".  "Breeder" wants $100.00 for cross bred hounds. Dirty looking pups in a pickup bed. Says 100 firm unless you take the whole litter and that the price will only go up if you wait.
I'm gonna wait until they get to be 500 bucks so I can get a really great dog !!!  
Gabby (1949)


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## lee hanson (Jul 15, 2010)

Gabby said:


> No rules, regulations, officers, dues, or formal affiliations. It's more a state of mind. (Henry S. Johnson jr.)
> Once you open the door for rules and regulation then you are getting dangerously close to what PETA, Humane Society, and a lot of other groups want - to stop breeding altogether !
> I look at it like this - If you want to buy a cheap dog then that's what you get - a cheap dog!
> I always looked for the best pup I could afford. Talked to the breeder. Studied and got to know the Pedigree. Went and looked at the sire&dam and the kennels. Ask around about the breeder. Kept in touch with the breeder and told them of my plans - most of the time, if the breeder knows you are sincere they will work with you to help you get a good pup. Make sure the pup is wormed and shots up to date and the rest is up to you.
> ...



i agree the last thing we need is more laws. why has it came to  a point in are society  that laws need to be passed just to get people to do what should  come naturally.that to act with care and good judgement. i mean no should have to tell you to keep your pets in good healt and thier kennels clean.what has changed in the pass 20-30 yrs  between man an  mans best freind?


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## lee hanson (Jul 15, 2010)

i dont know a bout yall but i hate peta those folk's are crazy


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## GA DAWG (Jul 15, 2010)

It aint just peta no more..Local gooberment all the way up is to..They try and regulate everything..I took my hounds to a rabies clinic in a neighboring county then I got a letter the other day saying I had to pay 3 dollars and register ALL my dogs with the county I live in..I really dont think its any of their bussiness about what I have or dont have..So many crazy folk have moved in here is the problem..They have elected crazy folk just like em! They should just be thankful I got rabies shots.My savings at the clinic are thrown out the window now or would be if I payed them..


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## lee hanson (Jul 15, 2010)

GA DAWG said:


> It aint just peta no more..Local gooberment all the way up is to..They try and regulate everything..I took my hounds to a rabies clinic in a neighboring county then I got a letter the other day saying I had to pay 3 dollars and register ALL my dogs with the county I live in..I really dont think its any of their bussiness about what I have or dont have..So many crazy folk have moved in here is the problem..They have elected crazy folk just like em! They should just be thankful I got rabies shots.My savings at the clinic are thrown out the window now or would be if I payed them..



if we had only won the war


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## GA DAWG (Jul 15, 2010)

lee hanson said:


> if we had only won the war


Or didnt have these 4 lanes to and from hot lanta


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## lee hanson (Jul 15, 2010)

GA DAWG said:


> Or didnt have these 4 lanes to and from hot lanta


hot lanta lol what the world coming to


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## JuliaH (Jul 15, 2010)

Agreed 



zzweims said:


> I don't think there should be any laws. But if there were just one that would cut down on crappy breeding practises, it would be to require all breeders to take a puppy back--any time, any reason


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## lee hanson (Jul 15, 2010)

have yall thought about where this world will be in  10 yrs. what i mean is its sad that laws are being passed that tell people to pull your pants  ..that is truely sad that some has to be told to pull their pants up .then we act suprised when these people dont take care of their pet.


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## K9SAR (Jul 15, 2010)

lee hanson said:


> if we had only won the war



I'm originally from New York there, bud.


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## lee hanson (Jul 15, 2010)

K9SAR said:


> I'm originally from New York there, bud.



the good lord still love's,,,,,,,,,,,,,i like you .........and  you would just been that much beter if we  had won Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----


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## lee hanson (Jul 15, 2010)

lee hanson said:


> the good lord still love's,,,,,,,,,,,,,i like you .........and  you would just been that much beter if we  had won Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----



what does that a edited  to remove mean


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## grouper throat (Jul 15, 2010)

Gabby said:


> Just saw an add in the "for sale section".  "Breeder" wants $100.00 for cross bred hounds. Dirty looking pups in a pickup bed. Says 100 firm unless you take the whole litter and that the price will only go up if you wait.
> I'm gonna wait until they get to be 500 bucks so I can get a really great dog !!!
> Gabby (1949)




Don't judge a book by it's cover. I'm not taking up for these particular dogs but I've personally seen proven crossbred deer hunting dogs sell for $1-6 grand at 1-2 yrs old (way more than most pure breed dogs I bet). All being well bred deer hunting trail dogs that are beagle/walker or walker crossed hounds aka "potlickers". Personally, I wouldn't give you a dime for any pup on the forum as I stay local when wanting a pup so I know what I'm getting in advance.


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## dawg2 (Jul 15, 2010)

lee hanson said:


> what does that a edited  to remove mean



It means you said a wirty dord.


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## K9SAR (Jul 15, 2010)

lee hanson said:


> the good lord still love's,,,,,,,,,,,,,i like you .........and  you would just been that much beter if we  had won Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----



WHAT'D YOU CALL ME?!


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## lee hanson (Jul 15, 2010)

dawg2 said:


> It means you said a wirty dord.



i dint say one i dont think   what is a wirty dord


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## lee hanson (Jul 15, 2010)

K9SAR said:


> WHAT'D YOU CALL ME?!



i dint call you any thing. the only be it could   is i put lmbo but ther was an a not a b could that be it


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## MesquiteHeat (Jul 16, 2010)

Not a darn thing, this is America.  Who are you and I or anyone for that matter to set criteria for breeding dogs?  What a joke.  And I agree with you on a lot of things but are your ethics and standards great enough to question others'?  Majority of people you see everyday are on welfare, fraudulently draw disability and are not financially or mentally prepared to have children.  And yet we're worried about how they breed their mutts, that's ridiculous.  Only 1 out of every 100 breeders actually half-tail know what they're doing in the whelping box anyway, setting criteria won't change a thing.  This post is a bad sign, people need to wake up to the real issues in this world; not who bred dogs in a dirt pen or without "health clearances"

And for the record I think health testing dogs is a joke, they provide no more guarantee unless there is tight breeding going on.  Even then there is no science.  And what I always ask people who preach health testing, how many tests did you and your partner undergo before having children?


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## Nerf Warrior (Jul 16, 2010)

The designer breeders are the ones that gripe my hide.   Show up at any given flea market and you can buy , Weenie Spaniels, Cocker Spitz,  Schnauzer-poos etc... $50 ea "with papers".  And people are buying these things like they are going out of style.  Really cute when they are puppies but eventually they grow up and end up back at the flea market or in the pound or dropped out on side of the road somewhere..


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## shakey gizzard (Jul 17, 2010)

Arent we all hybrids?


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## lee hanson (Jul 17, 2010)

MesquiteHeat said:


> Not a darn thing, this is America.  Who are you and I or anyone for that matter to set criteria for breeding dogs?  What a joke.  And I agree with you on a lot of things but are your ethics and standards great enough to question others'?  Majority of people you see everyday are on welfare, fraudulently draw disability and are not financially or mentally prepared to have children.  And yet we're worried about how they breed their mutts, that's ridiculous.  Only 1 out of every 100 breeders actually half-tail know what they're doing in the whelping box anyway, setting criteria won't change a thing.  This post is a bad sign, people need to wake up to the real issues in this world; not who bred dogs in a dirt pen or without "health clearances"
> 
> And for the record I think health testing dogs is a joke, they provide no more guarantee unless there is tight breeding going on.  Even then there is no science.  And what I always ask people who preach health testing, how many tests did you and your partner undergo before having children?



i dint say  i want more laws. i just asked what others think personally a wouldn't care if they ever made another law.  i think  if people put more work in to their kids and / or family the world would be a better place. but for some reason parents have started wanting to be friends with their kids and not caring if they are friends with their spouse ,and i think it starting  to show in or society ..........i don't think we should needs laws to tell us  how to act or to do the right thing.that should come natural to to any one with a little home training


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## K9SAR (Jul 17, 2010)

MesquiteHeat said:


> And for the record I think health testing dogs is a joke, they provide no more guarantee unless there is tight breeding going on.  Even then there is no science.  And what I always ask people who preach health testing, how many tests did you and your partner undergo before having children?



Actually, people with common sense and some sliver of intelligence do get checked for certain hereditary diseases, (for which there is testing) to ensure they DON'T pass it along to their children.  

Why breed two dogs together that have KNOWN health issues that are hereditary? Why breed two dogs together that have KNOWN temperament issues?

I am not for more laws governing breeding.  There's always a way that the laws can be interpreted to affect every pet owner...not just breeders.  I am, however, for more responsible breeding (human and animal!)


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## MesquiteHeat (Jul 18, 2010)

In our whelping box temperaments are a given, won't keep an iffy one on the yard and won't breed one.  But health testing I have a problem with, in our breeds (AmStaffs and APBT's) there is a huge amount of health testing being done and flauted in the show lines we see.  Testing has become more important than temperaments, structure, and pedigree.  The dogs we breed are nice enough in these things that health tests that are not the greatest are irrelevant.  If a dog is nice enough to be bred in our yard then not so perfect scores aren't a worry; and if a dog is worthy enough to be bred then they shouldn't stop you.  Problem is people don't set their breeding standards high enough.  If people only bred the best available and only kept and bred the best from those breedings instead of simply breeding what they have, then you would not see as many "problems" out there.  

  Health testing is a tool, no more than that and should be viewed as such, it's not a justification for breeding.  What's a dog with a healthy heart and eyes if he's scatterbred and has a poor temperament and crappy structure?  I'd rather be working on health issues any day rather than trying to tighten peds, improve scatterbred structure, and correcting temperaments.  Gotta pick your battles wisely and few know what to pick


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## lee hanson (Jul 18, 2010)

lee hanson said:


> and what do think should happen if you are caught  illegally breeding ?the reason i ask is i noticed the other day that their  was a 15  year old kid on here trying to pimp out his pup .when i asked why i was told the pup had to earn his keep he couldn't afford to feed him.............i for one  am not for making a bunch of laws so what do we do.when other cant exercise good judgment and the animals are paying for it


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## K9SAR (Jul 20, 2010)

MesquiteHeat said:


> Health testing is a tool, no more than that and should be viewed as such, it's not a justification for breeding.  What's a dog with a healthy heart and eyes if he's scatterbred and has a poor temperament and crappy structure?  I'd rather be working on health issues any day rather than trying to tighten peds, improve scatterbred structure, and correcting temperaments.  Gotta pick your battles wisely and few know what to pick



A healthy dog is healthy both temperament-wise as well as health-wise.  I wouldn't breed a dog with a poor temperament that had awesome excellent health testing results just like I wouldn't breed a dog with an awesome temperament and poor health testing results.


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## lee hanson (Jul 20, 2010)

K9SAR said:


> A healthy dog is healthy both temperament-wise as well as health-wise.  I wouldn't breed a dog with a poor temperament that had awesome excellent health testing results just like I wouldn't breed a dog with an awesome temperament and poor health testing results.



x2  ............my concern is more towards people breeding because they are broke..cause if you have to breed to try to make money what happens when the  pups don't sale or don't sale fast. what happens when  you need  to take  you female to the ER and your still broke .the dog suffers cause you are all ready broke and just in it to make buck.the other thing is the 15 yr old kid that was on here trying to pimp out his pup. you wouldn't  want your  15  yr old to make  a bay so  why should they be able to make  a litter of pups to put on the world


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## K9SAR (Jul 20, 2010)

lee hanson said:


> x2  ............my concern is more towards people breeding because they are broke..



And that is how I ended up taking in a senior male German Shepherd several years ago.  The owner had sent me photos of him - this shiny, svelte male German Shepherd, but when I met her to buy him because "she had to make a truck payment," he was 40 lbs underweight, his coat was dull, and flies had eaten the tips of his ears.  She said, "he was out wandering because of a neighbor's female in heat."  

It cost $400 at the Veterinarian to get that dog healthy.  

To this day that woman still breeds German Shepherds and always has ads saying "MUST SELL!  NEED CASH FAST!"


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## lee hanson (Jul 20, 2010)

K9SAR said:


> And that is how I ended up taking in a senior male German Shepherd several years ago.  The owner had sent me photos of him - this shiny, svelte male German Shepherd, but when I met her to buy him because "she had to make a truck payment," he was 40 lbs underweight, his coat was dull, and flies had eaten the tips of his ears.  She said, "he was out wandering because of a neighbor's female in heat."
> 
> It cost $400 at the Veterinarian to get that dog healthy.
> 
> To this day that woman still breeds German Shepherds and always has ads saying "MUST SELL!  NEED CASH FAST!"


i know what you mean i just a got female  that is about 30 lbs under wight .because the owner was mad  when 3 of  her pup died they were worth about 1500 each. so this guy took the  rest of the pups in  side  and bottle feeds them and leaves the mom in the kennel for 3 weeks with no food


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## NGaHunter (Jul 20, 2010)

lee hanson said:


> i know what you mean i just a got female  that is about 30 lbs under wight .because the owner was mad  when 3 of  her pup died they were worth about 1500 each. so this guy took the  rest of the pups in  side  and bottle feeds them and leaves the mom in the kennel for 3 weeks with no food



Did you turn him in to Animal control for starving that dog?


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## lee hanson (Jul 20, 2010)

NGaHunter said:


> Did you turn him in to Animal control for starving that dog?



i dont know the guy that starved  her.this what happend a got pup  about  3months ago  i paid 2200 for  after about 3 weeks she died so i called the guy i got the pup from he didnt have  my money or  another pup so he told me he would see what he could do after about a month he called me and ask would i take a grown dog he sent me some pic and she was realy nice so i agreed to take  her  and call it even  on the pup so he got the  dog from some one he knew. when the dog got to his house he called me and told me she looked nothing like she did when he bred to her so i went out and looked at her.and she was realy bad  you could see every bone in her body her hair was falling out but  i took her any ways  its been 2 months now she pick up about 15 lbs but need about 15-20 more to be like  she was. if it was up to me that guy would be delt with the same way he treated the dog


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## MesquiteHeat (Jul 21, 2010)

K9SAR said:


> A healthy dog is healthy both temperament-wise as well as health-wise.  I wouldn't breed a dog with a poor temperament that had awesome excellent health testing results just like I wouldn't breed a dog with an awesome temperament and poor health testing results.




 In the ideal world that would be nice, but in the limited dogs that are out there this sometimes isn't possible.  And for a lot of people, what they call satisfactory in pedigree and in structure I call poor.  So when health tests come back okay then they're set to breed.  When your standards aren't as high then you're less likely to be disappointed in what you have.  Health testing is over used and too much stock is being placed in it, I see that Lee Hanson agrees with you but I'd love to see some of the dogs he calls correct in structure and type.  If a dog is nice enough in structure and in temperament then he should be bred no matter what the health scores, these are harder to come across than good health tests.  Like I said, I choose to work on health on my dogs and I'm better able to do that with linbreeding than with health scores.  You can have a healthy heart and tight hips, I'll take a correct dog with a lot of drive and a lot of type.  Could care less if his hips aren't perfect, the ideal dog is being lost so he can have good patellas.

   Type is also being lost in today's Germn Shepherds, way too much angulation in the rear and longer tibia/fibula bones make the dog less functional.  Their turn to stifle makes moving look unbelievable.  Europe laughs at our German Sheps


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## amstaff (Jul 21, 2010)

MesquiteHeat said:


> In the ideal world that would be nice, but in the limited dogs that are out there this sometimes isn't possible.  And for a lot of people, what they call satisfactory in pedigree and in structure I call poor.  So when health tests come back okay then they're set to breed.  When your standards aren't as high then you're less likely to be disappointed in what you have.  Health testing is over used and too much stock is being placed in it, I see that Lee Hanson agrees with you but I'd love to see some of the dogs he calls correct in structure and type.  If a dog is nice enough in structure and in temperament then he should be bred no matter what the health scores, these are harder to come across than good health tests.  Like I said, I choose to work on health on my dogs and I'm better able to do that with linbreeding than with health scores.  You can have a healthy heart and tight hips, I'll take a correct dog with a lot of drive and a lot of type.  Could care less if his hips aren't perfect, the ideal dog is being lost so he can have good patellas.
> 
> Type is also being lost in today's Germn Shepherds, way too much angulation in the rear and longer tibia/fibula bones make the dog less functional.  Their turn to stifle makes moving look unbelievable.  Europe laughs at our German Sheps




I agree. Ask any true breeder who cares about their breed and they will tell you that OFA's can vary depending on who at the office judges the X-ray (excellent-good-fair-poor). 
In the 2 breeds my wife and I were known for (Amstaff and Fr. Bulldogs),TRUE type and temprament are the major contributing factors. If you know enough of your linage and their heritage, health should be a given. No amount of testing can say a dog is 100% healthy. That falls on the breeder to make the best decision at time of choosing mates.
  To get back to the original question as to what this thread was for, new laws are not going to stop bad breeders from doing bad things. We as people have to be responsible for our own actions. How do we police this ourselves, If some one is breeding bad dogs that have to much angulation, improper movement, downsizing/ up sizing, etc. dont support them. Tell people about the difference in proper and improper. Use the PARENT club standards. These were wrote for a reason.A dog ,no matter what breed, cannot function in the way it was intended if the standard is not met. 
 Talk to your friends, explain that if they want a mutt then go adopt one from a pound that has been spayed/ nuetered. Do not go to one of these mutt breeders that deal in "designer pets". Example, people have been doing the "Labradoodle" thing for many years. You know why it is still not in the misc. group in the AKC? It is a MUTT! 

Sorry for the length of rant but, making new rules won't stop it. WE have to shut down the reason for them doing it  Which means quit giving them money.


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## lee hanson (Jul 21, 2010)

MesquiteHeat said:


> In the ideal world that would be nice, but in the limited dogs that are out there this sometimes isn't possible.  And for a lot of people, what they call satisfactory in pedigree and in structure I call poor.  So when health tests come back okay then they're set to breed.  When your standards aren't as high then you're less likely to be disappointed in what you have.  Health testing is over used and too much stock is being placed in it, I see that Lee Hanson agrees with you but I'd love to see some of the dogs he calls correct in structure and type.  If a dog is nice enough in structure and in temperament then he should be bred no matter what the health scores, these are harder to come across than good health tests.  Like I said, I choose to work on health on my dogs and I'm better able to do that with linbreeding than with health scores.  You can have a healthy heart and tight hips, I'll take a correct dog with a lot of drive and a lot of type.  Could care less if his hips aren't perfect, the ideal dog is being lost so he can have good patellas.
> 
> Type is also being lost in today's Germn Shepherds, way too much angulation in the rear and longer tibia/fibula bones make the dog less functional.  Their turn to stifle makes moving look unbelievable.  Europe laughs at our German Sheps





lee hanson said:


> x2  ............my concern is more towards people breeding because they are broke..cause if you have to breed to try to make money what happens when the  pups don't sale or don't sale fast. what happens when  you need  to take  you female to the ER and your still broke .the dog suffers cause you are all ready broke and just in it to make buck.the other thing is the 15 yr old kid that was on here trying to pimp out his pup. you wouldn't  want your  15  yr old to make  a bay so  why should they be able to make  a litter of pups to put on the world



when i say healthy  dog . i think of it as a correct dog.cause to me some heath is not only based on there hips but rather over all breed correctness.i  think even if the vet  tells you your  dog is healthy  and is aproved for breeding .you as a breed should still make sure your dog is healthy for the breed. what i mean is , is he  or her going to  better the breed.


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