# Who is at fault and how can it be fixed.



## JuliaH (Sep 14, 2012)

First things first.  Let's talk about the problem, our ideas of fix and not just blame the breeders or the pet owners, or whomever. We certainly don't need to give away more of our freedom to raise, love and rescue animals and believe me, there are organizations who would stop every breeder if they could. 

Some breeders just don't like rescue. Some  rescuers can't stand breeders, and too many pet owners just don't realize the dangers of being careless. 

The evidence is in every pound and rescue and at some breeders kennels... 

I want to start out telling a story of 2 of my dogs... so be patient if this gets a little long. One of my Brittanys, Rusty, found out that across the highway there lives geese and  a nice big pond and cows. What fun!! Problem is the highway!

Anyhow, Rusty got across the road playing with the birds (he is a trained bird dog so birds are REALLY cool) and when he got ready to cross the road again, thankfully a good samaritan saw him fixing to get hit by a big truck and called him back....  here doggy must have worked. She took him home, not knowing he lived right across the road. I put out ads when I could not find him... in the newspaper, at the vet, online, right here on GON too, and called the rescues. Several very long days went by. Finally I got a call and an unnamed lady said she had seen a picture of my dog. I took off to the convenience store she named, and yup, there was Rusty on the found dog flyer. Called the number and called again until I reached the lady. Happy ending... Rusty at home again. He is microchipped, but never went to the vet or the pound or any rescue to be scanned. He does not now, nor did he then, wear a collar with tag. Yes, that is on my list of TO DO stuff.... 

Second dog had been given away. Not a good candidate for sale though he was a nice dog. I bred him. Wound up going to second owner but that did not work out. Rather than second owner calling me or first owner, he gave him to another person. This dog wound up in big trouble. Thankfully a lady called me from Florida... was I Julia and was I the breeder of this dog?  Yup... I'm on my way. No wait, was the answer... I might have a place for him, gonna trade him for ____________. I kept after her, and got my dog back.  He was finally rehomed to permanent home by me but it took a while to get him back in good shape... 

Pictures below... 

Point is, I wish there were a pat answer.. Just do this or that and we will fix the problem. No breeder wants their pups to wind up in a bad way. No rescuer wants to deal with the situations they deal with. Not many who have raised a dog and loved it for years want to give it away. 

But there are those who just don't care, and they are in every category, be it rescue, breeder, owner...

Ideas, not attacks please! 

Julia


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## JuliaH (Sep 14, 2012)

correction... my dogs do wear collars, but they do not have ID on them... I am in the process of purchasing new collars with my name, reward and phone contact on the collars.


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## SonyaS (Sep 14, 2012)

JuliaH said:


> correction... my dogs do wear collars, but they do not have ID on them... I am in the process of purchasing new collars with my name, reward and phone contact on the collars.



I believe bright collars and visible jingly tags are important. Fact is with all the strays around here if people SEE the collar and tags a lot of folks will stop to help a lost dog. With no ID tags the person that picks them up is often stuck with them, and nobody wants to bring the dogs to the kill shelter. I am sure you have driven past stray dogs and wished you could help (I have), if those dogs had tags on would it have made a difference to you? I would stop in a heartbeat if the dogs have tags.

You can order tags online and they mail them to you in 5 days, or Petsmart has machines that make them up instantly. If the dogs are already wearing collars then at the very least get a sharpie and write the ph # on it.

As far as what to do about the overpopulation problem, as I said I have thought Microchipping is the way to go.
Start with the breeders/puppymills/pet stores that are licensed by the Ag Dept. Make them chip every pup before it goes out. They can breed/sell 100  or 1000 dogs a year if they like BUT if those dogs start showing up in shelters or rescues they risk fines/license suspension.

Suddenly those folks are going to be a lot more careful about who they sell too because if too many of their dogs are given away after the sale, dumped, surrendered to a shelter etc...in the years to come they risk fines or losing their license completely. The days of running an ad and selling off a litter in a week or two for quick profit would be over. The Petland type stores would be out of business pretty quick too.

It would be a first step, and it WOULD have a trickle down effect. Once that is in effect the next step would be to target the breeders that don't have a license, the law says if people have MORE than one litter a year they have to get licensed but we know that isn't happening.


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## JuliaH (Sep 14, 2012)

A bright collar is what I have, but a jingly tag is not going to work on a hunting dog      When one lives in the country, one does not assume all loose dogs are strays, but I have seen some that I have helped as well as some I would like to help, but I am not a rescue. 

Tags that are acceptable for me are the kind that are riveted to the collar and have my name (not dog's name), my phone and the word REWARD on them. That gives me the best chance to get my dog back...

Well, we cannot start right off with let's do more rules or we are going to fine a licensed breeder. We already on the other thread mentioned that breeders are often not the problem. You would not touch most of the problem by causing breeders more costs. You would then only have the mixed breed strays, and believe me there are plenty of those.

An ad for a week or two for quick profit... you forgot socialization, shots, lots of good quality dog food, sometimes training, and hours of time. If a breeder's time is worth anything there is no quick profit.  I don't sell to pet stores and my simple sales agreement states to call me before a pup from my litters lands in any pet store, rescue or shelter. 

I am licensed and have a business license too, but that is minimum. All the state cares about is cleanliness and healthy looking living conditions. They could care less how many litters you have as long as you pay them enough for how much you earn. 

Back to tags, here is a more acceptable tag for a breeder or owner of hunting dogs. Also on the other thread, someone mentioned a dog can slip a collar and that is certainly true. Check this link: http://www.gundogsupply.com/collars.html 

Also one more thought... my Rusty that went to play with geese and wound up lost is my stud dog for my Brittanys, and I am very happy that the lady who found him did not jump the gun and neuter him. I would have been very angry about that since I was looking for him.  



> I believe bright collars and visible jingly tags are important. Fact is with all the strays around here if people SEE the collar and tags a lot of folks will stop to help a lost dog. With no ID tags the person that picks them up is often stuck with them, and nobody wants to bring the dogs to the kill shelter. I am sure you have driven past stray dogs and wished you could help (I have), if those dogs had tags on would it have made a difference to you? I would stop in a heartbeat if the dogs have tags.
> 
> You can order tags online and they mail them to you in 5 days, or Petsmart has machines that make them up instantly. If the dogs are already wearing collars then at the very least get a sharpie and write the ph # on it.
> 
> ...


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## SonyaS (Sep 14, 2012)

JuliaH said:


> When one lives in the country, one does not assume all loose dogs are strays, but I have seen some that I have helped as well as some I would like to help, but I am not a rescue.



I don't assume all are strays, my sleazy cop neighbor has 10 or so dogs that run lose (and in bad shape). When I found this dog I flagged him down just to make sure it wasn't one of his (but this dog wasn't starving so I figured it couldn't be). 



JuliaH said:


> Tags that are acceptable for me are the kind that are riveted to the collar and have my name (not dog's name), my phone and the word REWARD on them. That gives me the best chance to get my dog back...



I have used those, when the collars wore out the tag went with them. If there is a way to move them to another collar I didn't know how.



JuliaH said:


> Well, we cannot start right off with let's do more rules or we are going to fine a licensed breeder.



Yes, that is what I expected. If the breeders are doing all the right things I don't know why they would object, in fact I would think they would WANT to microchip their pups to prevent them from ending up in shelters! 



JuliaH said:


> An ad for a week or two for quick profit...



My point is they are NOT screening the buyers, they are selling them to whomever shows up first with the cash. They don't look at the person's dog history or their living situation and worry about whether that individual can or will take care of the dog for a lifetime. When I did Doberman rescue I had a litter of rescue pups, a young guy called wanting to adopt, I turned him down (too young and living in an apartment).  He called me 3 weeks later, he had bought an 8 week old purebred female from an AKC breeder (some of the show folks let that woman use their Ch stud dogs) and he couldn't keep her, he wanted to know if rescue would take her. I said sure.




JuliaH said:


> Back to tags, here is a more acceptable tag for a breeder or owner of hunting dogs. Also on the other thread, someone mentioned a dog can slip a collar and that is certainly true. Check this link: http://www.gundogsupply.com/collars.html



This dog did not slip out of his regular collar, collars leave marks around the neck if they are worn regularly (that is why many show dogs can't wear regular collars around the house).

I assume you mean hunting dogs can't wear jingly tags while hunting. Another option is tag clips, they are popular with folks that have lots of fancy dog collars, let's you easily remove the tags when you hunt. Like the clips on a leash only smaller. Not sure how long they would last with super active dogs though, my dogs lose their tags and I always have to keep extras even with S hooks.



JuliaH said:


> Also one more thought... my Rusty that went to play with geese and wound up lost is my stud dog for my Brittanys, and I am very happy that the lady who found him did not jump the gun and neuter him. I would have been very angry about that since I was looking for him.



Well if you lived in a county with 1 tiny high kill animal shelter and 2 vets, would you have called them to see if they found your (unchipped) dog? Or would you wait a week and then check to see if the dog had already been adopted out or euthanized? If the dog gets adopted out or taken into a rescue after the holding period then your legal rights are severed (unless maybe you could prove he was stolen). 

But that is a moot point, it has been six weeks. Obviously I made the right call when I decided the owner wasn't trying to find the dog.


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## JuliaH (Sep 14, 2012)

Hi again,

I hope others will chime in, but I expect they are waiting to see how this conversation progresses 

As to those collars from Gundog Supply, the tags are free, so when ordering new collars, I would simply get the tag then. That is what I need to do, but I have 9 dogs, so I have to be sure to have the $$ on hand. Then I will have those collars. They are safer for owners with dogs that might roam, such as hounds and bird dogs (others too, but hunting dogs seem to find trouble pretty easily if they can). 

My story about Rusty was to illustrate that microchips are not always successful. To someone like you, who would probably get a dog scanned, it would work. To many others it would not. The lady who had Rusty never thought of that. He lived in her kennel with her bulldog till we got together and I got him back.  Many people would not think to have them scanned. Some would 

As to screening, I have a bit of an issue. I do talk with my folks but I don't do home inspections, etc. When they want one of my pups, I will know their thoughts on what they are doing with it. I raise GSP and Brittanys. Good as my dogs are, they are active and need plenty of exercise. I have been known to talk folks out of taking a pup if they cannot meet its needs. One person I can think of was not sure, so I turned out one of my adults and she ran and played and stopped to say Hi! then ran and played again, and he figured it out pretty quick  

But I do respect a person being able to handle their dog. They are given the option to call me if they have a problem or need to give up a dog they got from me. It works. I have had my dogs go to be hunters, living the kennel life, to be pets and hunt on weekends, to go to live their life with someone who hikes or runs for pleasure and who have a farm... and I guess a little in between. 

I am not the dog police for a prospective buyer, but I am more than willing to work with folks. 

Sonya... you and I must both live in the country. We have our kill shelter and 1 veterinarian office (4 doctors). Another has just come in but does not have a hospital yet. She works from a mobile clinic.  We also have 2 rescues that I know about here. One I completely respect. The other is okay, but has been cited by the state for the conditions there... so I would not turn an animal over to them. 

Like I have been saying, there is a place for the breeder and for the rescue alike. It is a bit of a symbiotic  relationship, and should be, but it is something that should work for both. Neither should despise the other 

Julia


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## SonyaS (Sep 14, 2012)

JuliaH said:


> I hope others will chime in, but I expect they are waiting to see how this conversation progresses



Most of the folks here are either not aware of the extent of the problem or they really don't care. I know there are some good people that have saved animals and some that post rescue links, but they are in the minority by far.

There are thing that could be done but all would require new legislation. If the breeders don't want to pay for microchipping then add a tax to pet food. I know most dog owners wouldn't want that either even though they claim to "love" dogs. I would pay it happily.

If that failed then my next plan would be to cut all subsidized meals in public schools. 

What are your suggestions??



JuliaH said:


> As to those collars from Gundog Supply, the tags are free



Actually those collars are a good deal, they are the same price as a regular collar without a tag. Course in a pinch a black marking pen works well too.



JuliaH said:


> My story about Rusty was to illustrate that microchips are not always successful. To someone like you, who would probably get a dog scanned, it would work.



I had the vet check for a chip right before he was neutered, their scanner was with the mobile vet 100 miles away, so he said they could just x-ray him to find out. 

My vet is a good ole' boy and made fun of me when I said _"We have to check, what if he is a Champion or something?"_ And he started laughing and said _*"You done what to my prize huntin' dog!!!!"*_  So yes, the thought did cross my mind, and the vet thought it was funny because he knows how people are around here.

None of my dogs are chipped but all wear collars and tags. Mine are mostly all elderly or mixed breeds so no one would want to steal/sell them, tags are enough, the Anatolian is a purebred but he is far too aggressive to be stolen.



JuliaH said:


> As to screening, I have a bit of an issue. I do talk with my folks but I don't do home inspections, etc.



Well if you are unsure about a buyer remember you don't actually have to visit their home, you just have to say you will. If they are lying they will disappear.




JuliaH said:


> We also have 2 rescues that I know about here. One I completely respect. The other is okay, but has been cited by the state for the conditions there... so I would not turn an animal over to them.



We have a couple of rescue groups in this county, I don't know about the conditions but I do know they are not helpful. 

I was actively involved with Doberman rescue for several years in California but stopped when I moved to Georgia 15 years ago. I don't "do" rescue anymore but when special situations arise I will rescue a dog. The Coonhound was a special situation. He showed up and stared and sat so nicely and I couldn't possibly not help him.


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## grouper throat (Sep 14, 2012)

I don't want the government in my dogs nor do I want to pay anymore taxes via dog food or anything else. 

I see no problem and seems they take care of it in a few days with euthanizing them. If someone isn't looking for their dog in a few days then they dont care about it IMO.

ID collars are on mine from 12 weeks to death and I have a bunch of extras.


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## Dbender (Sep 15, 2012)

I agree 100% with grouper throat.  Gov has no business with my dogs.  You can get vinyl coated collars with id tags for $5.00 a piece from Roy Smith at Eagle Bluff Kennels.  Best insurance against loss in my opinion.  Most people around here would not take a dog to see if it is chipped.  If collar is on properly dog won't slip out of it.


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## JuliaH (Sep 15, 2012)

More laws and forcing people to microchip is just not the answer and most folks who care about their dogs either kennel them or fence them in. The dogs are only out to run when the owner is outside, barring some kind of real problem, such as Rusty running across the highway... and once he did that, he is not loose in the yard ever, unless he has his e-collar on so that when I call him he comes back. 

Just for the record I live WAY back off the road and I watch them closely when they are out in the yard. If they go toward the road, that is the end of running loose. 

As to champion dogs, you cannot know by looking. I have 2 Field Champions and a Senior Hunter here. And everybody has a good enough pedigree that I could not purchase the dog cheaply were I to have to replace it because it was lost, hit by car, etc. so in my case, I would have lost a good dog that would have never been checked for microchip AND the finances to pay for another of his quality would have been hard to come by. Rusty is an old man now, but I will put another picture of him at the end of this post 

The thing I have lacked is ID collars, and that will be remedied!  The reason it has not yet is because I am super careful with my dogs getting away from me since Rusty got lost. But it needs to be done. 

I have no need to lie to my buyers or threaten them with home visits   I screen them and have only had 1 dog get in trouble. I have been a breeder for several years. Pretty good odds that the pups are okay. 

I have had 2 or 3 come back to me for rehoming. All but one were found good homes, and the one went back to the original owner as they figured out a way to make their difficulty work out 

Rescue is hard work, and an often thankless job, just like being a breeder.  These days, in this mindset, a breeder is a bad person to many. But that is no more true than anyone else.. and by hindering the breeder with more and more rules and regulations, you have not yet touched the real problem. 

Go down into certain neighborhoods and look at the pets. Or work for your vet, you will eventually see some of them. Even good folks don't understand heat cycles, don't know why the boy dogs from a mile away come to visit, don't know how long and how safely they need to pen up their girls, and often don't care. Better yet, go to Walmart and see the free pups. 

My pups are not sold or given away at Walmart.   There lies the problem, so causing me and other breeders more grief is not going to solve more than the tip of the iceberg 

I know the guy who runs the dog pound here too, and he is easy to talk with. You won't find too many good dogs in there either. Sometimes they are there. Not often. It is the mixes, the ragamuffins, the sad cases from the guy down the street who barely feeds his, etc. 

When one of mine goes missing I know it pretty quick, sometimes within minutes, but no more than an hour or so. And then I am looking and on the phone..... The make more rules so these breeders will do a better job is kinda like when our government thought it best to limit the speed on Interstate to 55 mph!  Drive 55 out there and get yourself killed.... 

As to this comment 





> And he started laughing and said "You done what to my prize huntin' dog!!!!" So yes, the thought did cross my mind, and the vet thought it was funny because he knows how people are around here.


, I would have had a different vet the next day. Sometimes these ARE prize hunting dogs!  

When my dogs are out working, they can get out of sight. Certainly when they compete they do at times, which is why there is a handler and a second person to keep up with the dogs (usually on horseback). In this paragraph I am talking field trials.

When a hunting dog is at work (no matter what he is hunting), he doesn't think about us being slower... it is our job to keep up or put tracking collars on for the hunt. And generally they do their jobs and don't go off on other game than they are trained for, but they are off leash and can get lost. Sooner or later they will turn up at someone's house and sometimes are never found by an owner who may not live in the area he is hunting. 

Now, I am a breeder because I love it and because it pays for my dogs to go field trialing with a pro, not because I want to fill the world with puppies   But whatever the reason that I do what I do, we all need to work together to some degree. Veterinarians, rescue folks, ethical owners and breeders, and whomever else.  Only then can the real problems be solved. Those real problems don't live at my house 

Here is Rusty, not on a found dog flyer. Also, the avatar is my Field Champion Annie.  Also Rose, the Senior Hunter and then Sam, out west hunting and almost FC.


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## JuliaH (Sep 15, 2012)

I looked up Roy Smith. THANKS for the info!!    Looks like he does a great job and is reasonable!!

Julia



Dbender said:


> I agree 100% with grouper throat.  Gov has no business with my dogs.  You can get vinyl coated collars with id tags for $5.00 a piece from Roy Smith at Eagle Bluff Kennels.  Best insurance against loss in my opinion.  Most people around here would not take a dog to see if it is chipped.  If collar is on properly dog won't slip out of it.


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## SonyaS (Sep 15, 2012)

JuliaH said:


> More laws and forcing people to microchip is just not the answer and most folks who care about their dogs either kennel them or fence them in.



Ha. You said you hoped more would chime in this thread, I said most here don't understand the problem or don't care (hence they are not commenting).  I *knew* if I mentioned the words legislation or taxation they would chime in immediately! 

You started this thread to discuss the horrendous pet overpopulation problem that leads to millions of dogs being killed in shelters every year. Both responses don't even address that because they honestly do not care if millions of dogs are abused/abandoned/euthanized. 

You said you wanted to start this thread in order to discuss ways to fix the problem. You said that, but so far you haven't suggested a single thing, you just keep saying "well those other folks are causing the problem, not me". What are your ideas exactly??? Blaming others doesn't count.

You also keep saying breeders and rescues need to work together. How so exactly? How do you envision them working together to fix the problem? Or do you mean breeders will breed the dogs and then rescuers can do their part by fostering/saving those dogs after the fact? 

Both breeders and those that rescue have to work hard, difference is the breeders MAKE money from the dogs while rescuers  SPEND money to save the dogs. The breeders get to send of cute bouncy puppies, the rescuers deal with the abandoned and abused. The rescuers get calls from the scum of the earth on a daily basis, they are constantly hearing horror stories, it makes them very aware of just how awful people can be and just how much suffering is out there.



JuliaH said:


> As to this comment , I would have had a different vet the next day. Sometimes these ARE prize hunting dogs!



My vet was the one that called the Coonhunters club on the first day to tell them a dog was found.  After a week he knew the score, he knew no one was looking, that is why he wasn't worried about neutering.


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## SonyaS (Sep 15, 2012)

Side question: Do those radio fence collars work well with hunting dogs?  I only have 5 foot fences which work fine for my dogs but this coonhound goes nuts if he smells wildlife in the woods and he WILL climb the fence.

I used to use the radio fence system but gave up when my dogs kept chewing up the collars, if I put it back up for him would it fix the fence worries?


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## JuliaH (Sep 15, 2012)

Sonya 

I am beginning to think this conversation is going in circles. 

First I did not start the thread to address overpopulation. I started it to try to find a reasonable dialogue between breeders and those who do rescue. 

HSUS and PETA both do lots to handle overpopulation. They are as bad as the dog pound at euthanization (sp?), all the while blaming the problem on breeders.

I am not against euthanizing animals who have little to no chance of a happy home. Actually, I would choose euthanization of some of my dogs if a proper home could not be found and something happened to me where I could not care for them. I have seen what can happen and I don't like it and I would not subject my dogs to it. 

Just where have I blamed all this on everyone else. I have simply said if you regulate the life out of breeders you have only touched the tip of the iceberg. You haven't done anything about all those others who could care less how they manage their dogs. There are not enough rescues and dog pounds to collect all the pups and the victims of dog fighting and the neglected, mixed breed animals out there. 

Breeders do make money from their dogs. But don't look at that as all that profit. Many of us put it right back into the dogs with trainers, with the cost of good food and care, with much more than many realize.  Not everyone is a puppy mill, and not everyone fits into the stereotypes as shown on tv and as shown by rescues.

Rescues do spend money. Many are wonderful places that work hard to adopt out their dogs, to keep clean and carefully cared for facilities. I know one of those, and I would support them every way that I can. We DO have that symbiotic relationship that should be found. 

I also know others that I would hope would just stop doing what they do. They are begging all the time and are careless.  There are certain standards of care, and some just don't measure up. I don't feel bad for them at all. 

You and I agree that there is too much abuse and suffering, but I see few of the people who cause that on this forum. It does exist, and if you read and pay attention where you can, you will find that many people are active, just quiet about it, in caring for the lost ones that they can take in. 

Julia


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## JuliaH (Sep 15, 2012)

Sometimes they do... but if a dog ever figures out that he can run through it... well, then it's game on and you cannot contain him.

My male GSP climbs, bless his heart. So, his kennel is bigger and it has a roof on it so that he cannot get through it or caught in it.  

Hunting dogs have a strong instinct for hunting and are not happy unless their noses are taking them someplace after birds or game.  Your big coonhound might be safe in a kennel with a ceiling. My kennels are the AKC type, not chain link (except 1) and Sam's kennel has chain link kennel panels for his roof. Keeps him in and safe   I am glad to take pictures of my kennels if you think it would help 

Julia






SonyaS said:


> Side question: Do those radio fence collars work well with hunting dogs?  I only have 5 foot fences which work fine for my dogs but this coonhound goes nuts if he smells wildlife in the woods and he WILL climb the fence.
> 
> I used to use the radio fence system but gave up when my dogs kept chewing up the collars, if I put it back up for him would it fix the fence worries?


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## SonyaS (Sep 15, 2012)

JuliaH said:


> You haven't done anything about all those others who could care less how they manage their dogs. There are not enough rescues and dog pounds to collect all the pups and the victims of dog fighting and the neglected, mixed breed animals out there.
> 
> You and I agree that there is too much abuse and suffering, but I see few of the people who cause that on this forum. It does exist, and if you read and pay attention where you can, you will find that many people are active, just quiet about it, in caring for the lost ones that they can take in.
> 
> Julia



Well that is where the Breeders could start. Instead of being completely against all regulation they COULD lobby for harsher penalties regarding animal abuse and dog fighting. They COULD lobby for stricter laws for puppy mills.

Also note you started this thread and the title says "Who is at fault and how can it be fixed".

So the "how can it be fixed" idea seems to be very on topic.

I realize the problem is hopeless in the South right now. I also see states like California passing some VERY strict laws. Los Angeles County recently passed a law that said NO ONE will sell dogs/cats period, the only pets that can be purchased are rescues. The South is decades away from something like that, and honestly the country will probably fall into a state of anarchy before it ever happens, so you are safe.

Regarding the radio wire, I have fencing, hogwire and the metal hog fencing. I used to use the radio fence to keep my dogs from digging UNDER, but abandoned it after 5 chewed up collars and torn wire. After I secured the fencing perfectly (chicken wire at the bottom just 2 weeks ago) now I have a crazy coonhound that will go OVER it! Ugh!  

Upside is if he plans to try and go over it he will be hollering at the top of his lungs, so he will warn me.

I don't have outdoor kennels, my dogs are house dogs, they have a fenced yard but I did set up a kennel for him outside of my yard fence and I did top it with wire this morning. I set it up so he could be gradually socialized to my pack (my dogs are quirky), he also gets free run of the yard and is kenneled indoors at night.

FYI we live in the same general area, I am in Gray, 40 miles east.


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## JuliaH (Sep 15, 2012)

Well, hi neighbor 

For a lot of reasons I believe we have all the laws we need. Enforcement is not up to me. Now, with that said, if someone approaches me needing help or advice I am glad to give it. 

I don't think even the state wants stricter laws for puppy mills because the cost of the state license depends on how much (gross) the breeder brings in... so the more pups the higher the fee. 

If GA passes half the baloney that California does, I will find another state. 

There are problems on both sides... puppy mills and indiscriminate owners where breeding is concerned. The occasional accident will happen, so that is not what I mean, but there are just as many good, ethical breeders, and all of us take in dogs when we can, and are interested in our buyers and pups a long way past the sale. 

On the other hand, rescues tend to think that all the animals they see need to be saved, and that is not true either. There are plenty that need to be put down humanely (I am no fan of gas chambers, etc) and then the rescue operation can get something done. Networking with other rescues, holding fun shows, couple of fund raisers a year, and a donation link on websites for rescues, as well as them also being licensed, are good things. 

There is a more successful operation someplace in there for both. And the relationship between breeder and rescue should be a positive one rather than a negative and hateful one.  You and I have had a good conversation so far and that  is positive. 

On the coonhound, you might try electric fence like for horses on the top of your fence, and maybe a strand off the ground about 6 inches, with a regular fence charger. It will give them a shock but it won't hurt them. And they won't touch it after they try it a time or two unless they are REALLY bull headed. 

I have a neighbor who uses electric fencing for his dogs and once they touch it, that's it. He could just about leave the gate open and they would not cross that spot unless he tells them it is okay. I did not believe it until I saw it myself, but it does work. His dogs are catahoulas, and once the respect is there, the fence is not challenged.

Julia



SonyaS said:


> Well that is where the Breeders could start. Instead of being completely against all regulation they COULD lobby for harsher penalties regarding animal abuse and dog fighting. They COULD lobby for stricter laws for puppy mills.
> 
> I realize the problem is hopeless in the South right now. I also see states like California passing some VERY strict laws. Los Angeles County recently passed a law that said NO ONE will sell dogs/cats period, the only pets that can be purchased are rescues. The South is decades away from something like that, and honestly the country will probably fall into a state of anarchy before it ever happens, so you are safe.
> 
> ...


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## SonyaS (Sep 16, 2012)

JuliaH said:


> I don't think even the state wants stricter laws for puppy mills because the cost of the state license depends on how much (gross) the breeder brings in... so the more pups the higher the fee.



Yeah, I am not sure what the State’s priorities are. In the Coonhound thread I mentioned that I was boarding him at a fancy kennel near Atlanta. Well I just filed a complaint with the Ag Department regarding that kennel and I am hoping the State cites them. I have heard the Ag Dept is rather scary.

I called to prepay the Coonhounds September boarding ($660 full price, $450 if paid a month at a time) and was told he did not get along with a pit bull male. 2 days later they called to tell me he had to go to an e-vet immediately as he had bleeding throat wounds from….wait for it…..the same pit bull male!!! They wouldn’t take him to the vet until I made payment arrangements for the e-vet, apparently Coonhound ran out his open kennel and engaged the Pit, therefore it is Coonhounds fault. : )  The happy kennel folks that ONLY care about dogs suddenly refused to provide medical attention to one that could be dying because they didn't want to pay for their own mistake. 

I filed a complaint with the Ag Dept that included bite wound pics and e-vet records, also found out from that County's Animal Control that they have picked up a few dogs that have “escaped” from the kennel. I truly hope the state steps up. I trusted those folks and paid them a lot of $$$ and was shocked at the way they handled this. 



JuliaH said:


> On the other hand, rescues tend to think that all the animals they see need to be saved, and that is not true either. There are plenty that need to be put down humanely (I am no fan of gas chambers, etc) and then the rescue operation can get something done. Networking with other rescues, holding fun shows, couple of fund raisers a year, and a donation link on websites for rescues, as well as them also being licensed, are good things.



You make it sound like the rescue folks look around for dogs to save. Rescue is incredibly emotionally and financially draining, most folks burn out after 10 or 15 years or so.  Active rescuers are bombarded with constant calls and requests that they can't fill, they are continually asked to save the puppy that is starving and living under an abandoned house, or take in the 9 year old Doberman because “the kids don’t play with him no more and we don’t want to take him to the shelter”.  That really hurts when the rescuer has their own beloved 9 year old Doberman that they truly adore, it is personal. But maybe that sort of dog SHOULD be put down huh? The good dog that the owner got bored with needs to be destroyed since the dog's owner lost interest in him. 

People that truly love dogs don’t see it that way, and it hurts like heck to hear about things like that NOT be able to help. That is the reality of rescue, it is ugly and heartbreaking and they can NEVER do enough! They can never SAVE enough, it hurts and it causes bitterness towards the folks that allow it to happen.

I realize most folks around here don't feel that way. Dogs are property that can be disposed of or replaced. For me they aren't like that, I have loved every dog I ever had or fostered, and I have had some great dogs that I mourned for years. 



JuliaH said:


> On the coonhound, you might try electric fence like for horses on the top of your fence, and maybe a strand off the ground about 6 inches, with a regular fence charger. It will give them a shock but it won't hurt them. And they won't touch it after they try it a time or two unless they are REALLY bull headed.



Yeah I have an older hotwire system. I also have the radio wire/collar system with a couple of collars that *may* still work (they don’t look chewed up). Since the fence is metal the radio wire will be easier to run, and if the range is set low he won’t get shocked unless he stands on the fence. Just have to rerun the wire and hope the wire that was buried can be saved.

If you have pix of your kennels post them. I always like seeing other people’s set ups.


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## JuliaH (Sep 16, 2012)

Hi SonyaS,



> Yeah, I am not sure what the State’s priorities are. In the Coonhound thread I mentioned that I was boarding him at a fancy kennel near Atlanta. Well I just filed a complaint with the Ag Department regarding that kennel and I am hoping the State cites them. I have heard the Ag Dept is rather scary.
> 
> I called to prepay the Coonhounds September boarding ($660 full price, $450 if paid a month at a time) and was told he did not get along with a pit bull male. 2 days later they called to tell me he had to go to an e-vet immediately as he had bleeding throat wounds from….wait for it…..the same pit bull male!!! They wouldn’t take him to the vet until I made payment arrangements for the e-vet, apparently Coonhound ran out his open kennel and engaged the Pit, therefore it is Coonhounds fault. : ) The happy kennel folks that ONLY care about dogs suddenly refused to provide medical attention to one that could be dying because they didn't want to pay for their own mistake.
> 
> I filed a complaint with the Ag Dept that included bite wound pics and e-vet records, also found out from that County's Animal Control that they have picked up a few dogs that have “escaped” from the kennel. I truly hope the state steps up. I trusted those folks and paid them a lot of $$$ and was shocked at the way they handled this.



It would seem that the kennel, knowing the dogs did not get along, would change where or how they managed them.  But, it is hard to "armchair QB" this.  

One thing I can tell you is that if this coonhound is a trained hunter, the instincts that he was born with are honed and fine tuned with training, and he will be harder to manage as a pet. For instance, when my dogs are not in their kennels they go to work. Not necessary for me to do anything to tell them to hunt.... it is in their blood and their training. 

Rose, when released to run, will make a big loop around the kennels and around the house and then disappear. If I call and she does not come to me, all I have to do is go to where I keep quail for training. She is right there pointing the bird house.  This is just a "for instance" comment, but every trained dog in my kennel will do some sort of the same thing. All the play toys and "stuff" in the yard won't stop them. They play with toys or chew stuff in their kennels but not when they get out. 

Your coonhound might be the same and might do well rehomed into a hunting home. If he spends his time trying to leave his situation where a "normal" dog might be very happy, he may have needs that cannot be met as a pet. Do you have any friends who hunt dogs like him?  One hunt and they would know if he is a trained dog. 



> You make it sound like the rescue folks look around for dogs to save. Rescue is incredibly emotionally and financially draining, most folks burn out after 10 or 15 years or so. Active rescuers are bombarded with constant calls and requests that they can't fill, they are continually asked to save the puppy that is starving and living under an abandoned house, or take in the 9 year old Doberman because “the kids don’t play with him no more and we don’t want to take him to the shelter”. That really hurts when the rescuer has their own beloved 9 year old Doberman that they truly adore, it is personal. But maybe that sort of dog SHOULD be put down huh? The good dog that the owner got bored with needs to be destroyed since the dog's owner lost interest in him.



Ok, let me back up here. I have never meant to say that a good rescue is trying to find dogs to save... for that I apologize if that is the impression I gave. There are plenty to go around.  I simply respect some more than others, and they all need to understand what they are getting into, just like we breeders do. I cannot whine and beg for funds from the rest of the world because I choose to be a breeder. Rescue can handle their job in a better, more ethical way sometimes too. 

As to putting down a beloved pet that is aged and a family can no longer care for it... sometimes that is kinder.  I have a friend who gives me a dog now and then to let it live out its days with me. I will know when the time comes, and care for it well until that day arrives... (pictures of one that I will share about at end of thread). One such dog was not given to me, but she wound up with me. Knowing where she came from I gladly took her and then called her original owner and let them know she was with me. She lived here for 3 years (I think.. if not that long it was close), and she had a wonderful time pointing birds. The bird house was in my barn then, and she would catch the scent, strike a point and relocate herself, just working and having fun. 

Another one is under my desk now.... how old is he... 16 or 17 yr old... not sure. But he can still give the pups a hard time and he is happy. 

My friends travel every year, and when they are too old to handle the rigors of that, they come to me, and I am happy to love those old ones and manage the last trip to the vet. 

I respect that much more than an old dog being given away, unless those doing the giving and the taking realize that this must be the only move for that dog, and that the dog may or may not handle it well. That is why my special ones will never deal with it. I will find a vet that will put them down because I cannot keep them. 

My dogs are handled in my will too... something we have not talked about but should be important and just came to mind 

Hotwire, even as set up for horses, is kinder than what the dogs can get into if they get loose. Good luck containing that big coonhound 

I will take a picture or two for you and upload it here. My other pictures have disappeared (computer crashed and I did not have a complete back up of pictures).


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## JuliaH (Sep 16, 2012)

Found the kennel  pictures... this is right after we upgraded to welded wire from chain link (chain link not safe enough for the boys when you have girls around  )

Rose is the dog on the right in one of the pictures. I have 7 welded wire kennels and one chain link. No dogs on dirt. Most on cement floor, one on treated wood and one on horse mats.

All dogs have Igloo style dog houses except one wooden house with shingles.


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## SonyaS (Sep 16, 2012)

JuliaH said:


> It would seem that the kennel, knowing the dogs did not get along, would change where or how they managed them.  But, it is hard to "armchair QB" this.



Yeah well seeing as how I paid them plenty to keep that dog safe, and they KNEW there was an aggression issue, I can armchair quarterback this quite easily. One of the main reasons I boarded that dog is because I have a very male aggressive Anatolian, he must be separated from my other males. I paid plenty to board that coonhound so he would be safe, and when I found out he got torn up by a pit when they KNEW there was a problem I was livid. If I wanted to risk him getting torn up I could have kept him here and not paid any boarding fees!



JuliaH said:


> One thing I can tell you is that if this coonhound is a trained hunter, the instincts that he was born with are honed and fine tuned with training, and he will be harder to manage as a pet. For instance, when my dogs are not in their kennels they go to work. Not necessary for me to do anything to tell them to hunt.... it is in their blood and their training.
> 
> Your coonhound might be the same and might do well rehomed into a hunting home. If he spends his time trying to leave his situation where a "normal" dog might be very happy, he may have needs that cannot be met as a pet. Do you have any friends who hunt dogs like him?  One hunt and they would know if he is a trained dog.


 
I have never had a hunting dog before, he is an enigma, I can't tell whether he was kept as a hunting dog or just a pet with a high prey drive. He definitely has a strong hunting drive, plus when the sun goes down he is ready to jump in the back of the suburban and go! Yet at the same time, he took to dog beds and chewies instantly. He also thought about counter surfing for a while before he actually did it. His canine social skills are not very polished, though he is trying hard to make friends with the other canines (so far only let loose with the girls, they won't play with him yet, they are still explaining the rules of polite behavior to him).

He is not being held captive against his will, this is the dog that gave sad eyes as he sat across the road when he first showed up. He also hollered all day when I wouldn't let him in the fenced yard (yeah I did give him water and feed him and tell him it would be okay....that might have contributed to the hollering outside of the fence). 

Do kenneled hunting dogs have poor canine social skills? Are they only let out to hunt and focus on prey without learning how to get along with other canines in a pack situation?  Knowing the folks around this area I question that the dog was kept as an isolated pet all these years.



JuliaH said:


> Hotwire, even as set up for horses, is kinder than what the dogs can get into if they get loose. Good luck containing that big coonhound
> 
> I will take a picture or two for you and upload it here. My other pictures have disappeared (computer crashed and I did not have a complete back up of pictures).



I have a pet hotwire system (not a system for livestock, I ain't trying to traumatize or kill my dogs, just keep them safe). 

Your kennels are nice and look quite expensive. Metal is very sanitary. I trust you don't keep young dogs on those metal floors.


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## JustUs4All (Sep 16, 2012)

Hi folks.  Here is my background.  I grew up with hunting dogs and presently own 8.  There are two pitty mix puppies hanging out at the farm awaiting a ride to their new homes in Massachusetts.  They were abandoned at 5 weeks fo age on the next farm over when bad renters were moved along.   I am retired now and transport a lot of rescue dogs.  

The overpopulation problem will not be solved without massive government intervention.  With that intervention it will only be solved in the more urban areas.  I am completely against more government.  A lot of the laws that get passed have unintended consequences.  Many of the laws intended to prevent cruelty to animals in some cases cause it.  



SonyaS said:


> Side question: Do those radio fence collars work well with hunting dogs?  I only have 5 foot fences which work fine for my dogs but this coonhound goes nuts if he smells wildlife in the woods and he WILL climb the fence.
> 
> I used to use the radio fence system but gave up when my dogs kept chewing up the collars, if I put it back up for him would it fix the fence worries?



That fence will probably hold him if you put one strand of electric fence around the top of the fence and one about 12 inches off the ground around the bottom.


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## JuliaH (Sep 16, 2012)

In your case, and knowing what you know, I might be hard to get along with too for that kennel. And I don't think I would ever pay that much to board a dog for a month... but one does what one has to do to try to make things work.



> I have never had a hunting dog before, he is an enigma, I can't tell whether he was kept as a hunting dog or just a pet with a high prey drive. He definitely has a strong hunting drive, plus when the sun goes down he is ready to jump in the back of the suburban and go! Yet at the same time, he took to dog beds and chewies instantly. He also thought about counter surfing for a while before he actually did it. His canine social skills are not very polished, though he is trying hard to make friends with the other canines (so far only let loose with the girls, they won't play with him yet, they are still explaining the rules of polite behavior to him).
> 
> He is not being held captive against his will, this is the dog that gave sad eyes as he sat across the road when he first showed up. He also hollered all day when I wouldn't let him in the fenced yard (yeah I did give him water and feed him and tell him it would be okay....that might have contributed to the hollering outside of the fence).
> 
> Do kenneled hunting dogs have poor canine social skills? Are they only let out to hunt and focus on prey without learning how to get along with other canines in a pack situation? Knowing the folks around this area I question that the dog was kept as an isolated pet all these years.



Sad eyes = hound = normal for them   And if he was lost in a hunt, he was probably very glad to see a friendly face. If he was dropped off (another possibility) he was still glad to see a friendly face. 

With what you are telling me, he is probably a trained dog... and if he doesn't have good doggy social skills he is either pretty aggressive or has been kenneled (which is what I think has been the case). When I turn mine out to play I am careful because some of them will challenge others at times... they will hunt together (in pairs is how they compete with strange dogs, but they are focused on the hunt and not on one another). I don't know about hounds so much, but my dogs are kenneled individually. No arguments over food or toys or territory. They are able to communicate but not in a pack situation. So, unless raised in the house and kept in the house their skills could be lacking. 

I know folks with several dogs in the house with good house manners, but my hubby doesn't like 2 little tiny dogs in the house much less all my bird dogs   So, kennels... it is still good and they deal with it, but they don't have the same social skills. 

Even if I am out there and let them out to play, or put some that I can't trust on a runner so they can let off the steam, or take them out with their e-collar so they can really run, they are not ever all out at the same time. They would get in trouble, and that is not good.  



> I have a pet hotwire system (not a system for livestock, I ain't trying to traumatize or kill my dogs, just keep them safe).
> 
> Your kennels are nice and look quite expensive. Metal is very sanitary. I trust you don't keep young dogs on those metal floors.



Ok, first the hotwire system. You won't kill them with a livestock system, but it WILL make them respect the fence. Won't traumatize them either, except to the extent that they will understand the fence bites when you touch it... so they won't touch it after they have tried it once or twice.  

It would be harder on you than on them when the fence bites, but it would be over with quickly   My friend that has the electric fence kennel (big kennel with plenty of room so they don't accidently touch the wire) has a livestock system (not the one made for many miles, but a 2-5 mile fencer) and I was surprised that the dog learned quickly and then left it alone. They are going to yelp like it killed them the first time, and that is hard to let happen, but then they are okay and understand. 

Small dogs and pets.... wouldn't use it. Big dogs such as his Catahoulas and maybe a coonhound that won't listen to less... it probably would work fine   Sure does work for those Catahoulas.

And yes, my dogs grow up in kennels with cement floors. Sanitary and easily cleaned, and pups allowed out to play twice a day for a good amount of time. They have a dog house and plenty to eat, fresh water and clean kennel (with young pups cleaned often...lol). They look forward to me coming to let them out but run right back in and happy when time to eat after they run and play a while.

There are crates in the barn in case of puppy baths or REALLY bad weather, but I have never had to use them and the dogs think they are in jail in the barn, so they are better in the kennel except in case of real problems or bath time for pups. (Every pup usually gets a bath before going to new homes.)

Julia


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## JuliaH (Sep 16, 2012)

Hi Just 

Glad to have more voices in this conversation 

I agree with no more laws and regs.  They would have the effect of gun control, only the criminals would have guns and only those under the radar would keep the problems alive with dogs too.  I used to watch the rescue programs on Animal Planet, but no more... and all that pretty much in cities while giving breeders a bad rap. Ugh. 

I don't transport rescues, but would be glad to do it if I was paid for trip. Would do it free if gas prices were not an issue. 

I own 9 bird dogs.... 6 GSP and 3 Brittanys. One spayed female stays around the house runs loose most of the time unless I am working the dogs, then I put her in a kennel so she can't chase off the birds the others are supposed to point...lol. Everyone else is in kennels.  Oh... also have a Chihuahua and a really old Toy Fox Terrier (I think) in the house 

Julia


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## SonyaS (Sep 16, 2012)

My mixed breed little rescue female was afraid to leave the house for 2 weeks after the "pet" fence bit her.  : )  She didn't know what it was exactly but she KNEW there was something evil out there.

I tend to think this dog was a kenneled hunting dog too, just emailed the local Coonhound hunting club to ask if I could have him tested.  I would like to know and would be interested in seeing him do his thing (providing one of the other members would rent out one of those fancy GPS trackers).

Hard surfaces (metal/cement) and young dogs aren't good. Causes joint damage, their bones are soft. Dogs should not be run on cement or other hard surfaces until at least 18 months of age. They will survive, they may do okay, but it causes damage that is evident to the trained eye. Part of the sharing info thing. Once they are safe from puppy diseases put them on natural surfaces.


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## JuliaH (Sep 16, 2012)

I will look into the hard surfaces thing, but I don't ever do a dirt kennel. Had to do that before I got the cement and they are hard to keep clean and tend to get smelly after a time. Poop can be picked up... the urine smell will get in there tho, even with shavings. Phoebe, the 14 year old I shared pictures of and a 10 yr old I have here now have been on cement all their lives... and they are fine. But you have raised a valid concern and I will check into it   By the way, Phoebe lived 1 month past her 14th birthday. She was a bit senile but still pointed birds 

Thanks for the comments on cement. Do you have any links to articles on it?

And do get your coonhound figured out. I went back and looked at the pictures of him and he has a kind eye.. 

Julia




SonyaS said:


> My mixed breed little rescue female was afraid to leave the house for 2 weeks after the "pet" fence bit her.  : )  She didn't know what it was exactly but she KNEW there was something evil out there.
> 
> I tend to think this dog was a kenneled hunting dog too, just emailed the local Coonhound hunting club to ask if I could have him tested.  I would like to know and would be interested in seeing him do his thing (providing one of the other members would rent out one of those fancy GPS trackers).
> 
> Hard surfaces (metal/cement) and young dogs aren't good. Causes joint damage, their bones are soft. Dogs should not be run on cement or other hard surfaces until at least 18 months of age. They will survive, they may do okay, but it causes damage that is evident to the trained eye. Part of the sharing info thing. Once they are safe from puppy diseases put them on natural surfaces.


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## DukTruk (Sep 17, 2012)

Admittedly, I didn't read every reply on this thread.  When I read the original post, I knew there was going to be tons of them.  Here's my 2 cents.

1.  You have already addressed the issue with Rusty not being "trustworthy" enough to be left loose unattended.  Great job, most people think the dog will eventually "figure it out".

2.  When we sell a pup, they are all microchipped BEFORE they are sold.  This is one less thing that the owner has to do, but the primary reason is for the good of the dog.  When we put the microchip in, we put our kennel down as the primary owner.  That way if theres ever an issue with the dog being left at a pound, etc we get contacted as the owner, and the dog is returned to us.  To me, this goes along with what a responsible breeder does.  There is way too much time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears that goes into these dogs for them to be left at a pound somewhere.


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## JuliaH (Sep 17, 2012)

Hi Duk,

On #1... I cannot imagine the dogs ever figuring it out once they find the fun stuff. They cannot understand what happens when they get hit by some driver when flying across the highway to have some fun.

On #2... I have resisted this. You have probably read that I have. Partly from cost, and partly from Rusty not being found with his. Now, I would love to hear if you have ever been able to find any of your pups through using microchip. My reasoning may be flawed, and I am open at least a little on it...  

#3....I had a lot of trepidation opening this thread. Usually breeders and rescuers wind up fighting over such simple things... sort of like the "What kind of dog food should I feed" threads...lol. 

I have learned. I hope Sonya has too. I hope we have each gained a friend through the conversation and I am glad people are reading... 

So, maybe it will open up even more conversation. Microchipping is a good place to open my mind some more. If it truly helps, it will be a good thing to know 

Julia



DukTruk said:


> Admittedly, I didn't read every reply on this thread.  When I read the original post, I knew there was going to be tons of them.  Here's my 2 cents.
> 
> 1.  You have already addressed the issue with Rusty not being "trustworthy" enough to be left loose unattended.  Great job, most people think the dog will eventually "figure it out".
> 
> 2.  When we sell a pup, they are all microchipped BEFORE they are sold.  This is one less thing that the owner has to do, but the primary reason is for the good of the dog.  When we put the microchip in, we put our kennel down as the primary owner.  That way if theres ever an issue with the dog being left at a pound, etc we get contacted as the owner, and the dog is returned to us.  To me, this goes along with what a responsible breeder does.  There is way too much time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears that goes into these dogs for them to be left at a pound somewhere.


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## SonyaS (Sep 17, 2012)

JuliaH said:


> Thanks for the comments on cement. Do you have any links to articles on it?



I can't find any full articles but found some vet references to it. It is frequently referenced on sites catering to breeds with bone problems (labs, shepherds) but I was also told about it when I got our Doberman show pups and Dobies are pretty sound.

No running on cement until they are 18 months old (when the growth plates close).  Apparently it causes obvious changes, one time in a confirmation class the teacher watched one of the dogs go around the ring and she immediately asked the owner if the dog was on cement, the owner said yes, her yard was paved, the teacher told her the it was causing damage and she needed to get the dog on softer surfaces.

It probably isn't a big deal for little pups (under 10 weeks) as long as they are not slipping and sliding around, but for older pups I would worry about possible long term effects.



> I have found in my practice that puppies who slip, trip, and fall regularly are much more inclined to develop bone growth problems, so covering those slick floors is an important part of reducing trauma to the growth plates.
> 
> I also don't recommend keeping puppies housed on hard surfaces like concrete.  -- Dr. Becker, DVM
> http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...wth-conditions-in-puppies-and-young-dogs.aspx





> As Lab owners, we are all told not to have our Lab puppy run or walk on hard surfaces for long periods of time as this may cause trauma or injury to the puppy's joints. http://www.8pawsup.com/articles/labsocd.html





> Also, preventing your puppy from doing a lot of jumping or running on hard surfaces before his growth plates close help reduce the risk of developing a skeletal disorder. -- Debra Eldredge, D.V.M. http://www.netplaces.com/dog-health/dog-anatomy/bones-and-joints.htm







JuliaH said:


> And do get your coonhound figured out. I went back and looked at the pictures of him and he has a kind eye..



He is a good boy, he has dropped a few pounds and I think he is quite nice looking,  he is higher energy and bouncier than my other dogs, particularly the seniors, so i have to take things slowly. He is easy for me to handle (my Anatolian is twice his size, so this guy seems small in comparison) but the old dogs are another matter.

Biggest challenge at the moment is that he is starting to holler for attention when crated, he is also barking incessantly at the elderly blind/deaf cocker and I am wondering if the elderly dog is triggering his prey drive (he doesn't bark at any of the others). I have a Dogra Platinum collar that I have never used, this may be the time to start using it (on the lowest setting, or if he has been trained with one the pager feature may be nearly enough).


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## SonyaS (Sep 17, 2012)

DukTruk said:


> 2.  When we sell a pup, they are all microchipped BEFORE they are sold.  This is one less thing that the owner has to do, but the primary reason is for the good of the dog.  When we put the microchip in, we put our kennel down as the primary owner.  That way if theres ever an issue with the dog being left at a pound, etc we get contacted as the owner, and the dog is returned to us.  To me, this goes along with what a responsible breeder does.  There is way too much time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears that goes into these dogs for them to be left at a pound somewhere.



Yeah rescue groups usually chip them for that very reason, as a safety net in case they are ever dumped. I think it is the responsible thing to do for the dog's sake.

I also planned to have this dog chipped if he got adopted, I didn't put all the effort and cash into this dog to have him "turned out" like trash a year or two from now.


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## scbulldog (Sep 17, 2012)

SonyaS said:


> My mixed breed little rescue female was afraid to leave the house for 2 weeks after
> Hard surfaces (metal/cement) and young dogs aren't good. Causes joint damage, their bones are soft. Dogs should not be run on cement or other hard surfaces until at least 18 months of age. They will survive, they may do okay, but it causes damage that is evident to the trained eye. Part of the sharing info thing. Once they are safe from puppy diseases put them on natural surfaces.



This is nonsense. Were did your eye get trained to detect joint and bone damage? Earleir you stated the South is decdes behind California as far as dog legislation goes, that is also nonsense. I lived in California when I was in the USMC, and it is about as close to a police state as we have in the USA. If you enjoy government intrusion in your life, they have plenty of houses for sale. I understand you like helping dogs, good for you. But dogs, just like chickens, cows and hogs are animals. You working in a rescue does not give you the right to tell other folks what to do with there animal. You also have very condesending shrill tone that makes what ever message you are trying to get across, much less palatable.


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## SonyaS (Sep 17, 2012)

scbulldog said:


> This is nonsense. Were did your eye get trained to detect joint and bone damage?



Obviously you need to work on your reading comprehension skills. I did not say that *I* could tell the difference, I said the expert teaching a confirmation class saw it immediately, called it out, and was 100% correct.

In case you are not aware, proper gait is extremely important in the show ring, the judges are trained to identify and select dogs that are structurally sound. If THEY can tell at a glance and immediately pick out the dog that was raised on cement then obviously it has a very real effect.

I will also point out that no one is forcing you to read my posts, feel free to utilize the ignore feature.


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## grouper throat (Sep 17, 2012)

scbulldog said:


> This is nonsense. Were did your eye get trained to detect joint and bone damage? Earleir you stated the South is decdes behind California as far as dog legislation goes, that is also nonsense. I lived in California when I was in the USMC, and it is about as close to a police state as we have in the USA. If you enjoy government intrusion in your life, they have plenty of houses for sale. I understand you like helping dogs, good for you. But dogs, just like chickens, cows and hogs are animals. You working in a rescue does not give you the right to tell other folks what to do with there animal. You also have very condesending shrill tone that makes what ever message you are trying to get across, much less palatable.



I agree. The reason you've never had many hunting dog rescues is we tend to be more responsible for our dogs. I for one won't dump it off or let it suffer. 

Your wal-Mart parking lot accidental breeding folks are the ones you want. Most of the litters of bred females I know of are nearly all sold/spoken for before they even come into the world.


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## JuliaH (Sep 17, 2012)

We need to keep our cool   Disagreement is almost a for sure thing, but we can handle it 

As to perfect gait in the show ring, keep in mind that the show animals (I had horses, both performance and halter Arabians) tend to go to extremes. If a dished face is beautiful with that gorgeous big eye and tippy ears, lets breed it better and better.... but read into better as more extreme.  Long neck, big trot, okay... lets slip in some .... er.... well, it worked (now DNA testing stops that).  There are good things about show animals and there are other things too. 

As to living on cement, Sadie and Annie and Rose have been on it for a long time... Annie and Sadie were raised on it (Annie is 4 now and Sadie is 6) and Rose has been on cement for about 4-5 years (she is 6).  All are tested for hips and all are good results. As to gait and ability, they can run and do... no lameness issues ever.  Sometimes we develop a callous, but that's about it. 

I am not discounting that problems can happen, and I will read, but nothing is written in stone, except that they are dogs and we are people who care about them. 

With the exception of a few, grouper is right about hunting dog people, specially that use their dogs for hunting or trialing. Those dogs require training and time spent, and are  partners with their owners. Their value is high, and not all monetary. Just look at the thread about the dog that got shot.... that dog was loved, and not just as a pet. He was his owner's friend and hunting partner too. 

Julia


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## SonyaS (Sep 17, 2012)

grouper throat said:


> I agree. The reason you've never had many hunting dog rescues is we tend to be more responsible for our dogs. I for one won't dump it off or let it suffer.



Statistically there are less hunting dogs than other more popular pet breeds. One rescue site has over 70 Coonhounds listed for adoption, most were found dumped or pulled out of shelters,  and most all look purebred to me: http://www.coonhoundrescue.com/rescuedogs.html


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## JuliaH (Sep 17, 2012)

There are plenty at the GSP and Brittany and other hunting dog rescues too, but most of those I bet are from pet homes... I have not researched it, but when you have thousands in training and price of dog you care for it pretty well generally.

Consider my Sam. This is his second season off trialing. Trainer is $500 a month, pretty reasonable for what I am getting. Plus cost of travel, training birds, entry fees. So by the time he is a FC I will have about $8000 in him (including purchase price). I can guarantee he will never make it to a rescue or shelter as long as I am alive. If something happens to me my hubby and my will spell out where they all go, or what is to happen.  

I like breed rescues. When you consider the coonhound rescue or other breed specific rescues for hunting dogs, and rescues for mixed breeds, the numbers will generally be significantly different.  

Julia






SonyaS said:


> Statistically there are less hunting dogs than other more popular pet breeds. One rescue site has over 70 Coonhounds listed for adoption, most were found dumped or pulled out of shelters,  and most all look purebred to me: http://www.coonhoundrescue.com/rescuedogs.html


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## scbulldog (Sep 17, 2012)

SonyaS said:


> Obviously you need to work on your reading comprehension skills. I did not say that *I* could tell the difference, I said the expert teaching a confirmation class saw it immediately, called it out, and was 100% correct.
> 
> In case you are not aware, proper gait is extremely important in the show ring, the judges are trained to identify and select dogs that are structurally sound. If THEY can tell at a glance and immediately pick out the dog that was raised on cement then obviously it has a very real effect.
> 
> I will also point out that no one is forcing you to read my posts, feel free to utilize the ignore feature.




I can see you want attention so I am not going to bite any more. I can see by your earlier comment about taking from school lunches to pay for pets, that you are either out in left field, or you want a response. Not interested in arguing with some one like you. If you think a show judge is credible, more power to you. People who breed or use performence dogs generally usually regard show dogs as a joke.  Good luck with that


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## Tag-a-long (Sep 17, 2012)

DukTruk said:


> 2.  When we sell a pup, they are all microchipped BEFORE they are sold.  This is one less thing that the owner has to do, but the primary reason is for the good of the dog.  When we put the microchip in, we put our kennel down as the primary owner.  That way if theres ever an issue with the dog being left at a pound, etc we get contacted as the owner, and the dog is returned to us.  To me, this goes along with what a responsible breeder does.  There is way too much time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears that goes into these dogs for them to be left at a pound somewhere.





JuliaH said:


> Hi Duk,
> 
> On #2... I have resisted this. You have probably read that I have. Partly from cost, and partly from Rusty not being found with his. Now, I would love to hear if you have ever been able to find any of your pups through using microchip. My reasoning may be flawed, and I am open at least a little on it...
> 
> ...



Julia, both my dogs were chipped by the breeder but if they had not been I would have done so shortly after bringing them home.  I've heard horror stories about shelters not checking (or not checking thoroughly enough, some times they migrate!).  There is always a chance they won't find it, or even look for it, if it's there.  But if he doesn't have one, there is 100% chance they won't find it.  

I look at it like a cheap insurance policy.  For $40-$50 it's just one more thing I can do to stack the odds in my favor.  As recently as 4 years ago, my small town vet didn't even offer the service and our local animal shelter had just gotten their first scanner.  I think it'll become more effective as chipping becomes more commonplace.  

We use an e-collar during training but outside that our two very rarely have a collar on.  They are house dogs, they don't go outside unsupervised and once you progress to the more the advanced levels, they are not allowed to wear a collar at a hunt test.  My logic has always been that I want test day to be like any other day at the office.  If the only time he ever goes 'naked' is on test day it won't take long for him to put two and two together.  This logic maybe somewhat flawed and a collar with a nameplate may not be such a bad idea in certain situations.  I still think having one on him all the time is opening the door to a 'test wise' dog but there may be room for compromise.  

The other points in this thread, I ain't touching with a 10 ft pole but I do applaud you for your patience and open mindedness.  You're a better woman than I.


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## JuliaH (Sep 17, 2012)

Thanks Tag 

When selling a pup, I send the buyer home with a conversation on keeping their baby safe, including microchipping when they take it to the vet right after they get it for follow up vaccines and check up.  

My puppy conversation includes a chat about the prevalence of parvo and the need for boosters of its baby shots that start here. We also talk  about dog food, taking a new pup to dog parks and Petsmart, etc., exercise needs and the invitation to call me anytime they need to, and spay/neuter if their pup is going to be a personal pet as well as weekend hunter. 

I will look into microchipping before the pups leave. There are some folks here who do microchip clinics and AKC has a microchip program, so it could be do-able for me 

If it helps, and not sure if it is the same for different breeds, my dogs' collars are always on. E-collar used in training and my trainer uses a tracking collar on field trial dogs. Even on horseback, it doesn't take a dog long to get out of sight in a trial. A GSP in the brush can be hard to see, too.  But the collar has not yet caused a problem in a test because there is no change from at home to the test or trial. 

I see you have a gorgeous lab in your avatar, and I have never seen a hunt test for them, so it sure could be different. One of these days I would love to watch beagles work too, but have not seen more than video yet.

I got into this conversation to try to build a bridge. One rescue here at home and I have a good understanding, and she knows my ways. I respect her and her rescue because I know how she does it.  I would love to see more communication among breeders and rescues and even on forums not using heavy handed ways for breeders, but it won't always happen  

As talked about earlier, there outta be a symbiotic relationship between breeders and rescues. We all love the dogs we deal with. We just have a different job and a different focus. All breeders are probably not the best, and I know others much better than me. All rescues the same 

Picture of my Rose in the tall grass to show how quickly they can get hidden.. There was a fad for a while that GSP people wanted dogs with lots of white. Can you imagine finding a nice roan or other darker dog than she in that grass. When she gets on point, she is not going to break it just cuz I call her... 

Julia


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## DukTruk (Sep 17, 2012)

Just went back and read the whole thread.....wow, where to begin....

First of all, I don't need the government of any kind (Federal, State, or Local) telling me what to do when it comes to dogs.  Those idiots can't keep a budget balanced to save their own butts.  As with many other problems, legislation (or more legislation) is not the answer to anything.

The folks that do rescue work should be commended.  It is a thankless job but very necessary in some areas.  DO NOT put the need for "rescues" or "shelters" at the feet of breeders.  We can (almost from memory) tell you where EVERY dog that has come out of our line is now.  We only do a couple of breedings per year and folks wait for months, even years for a pup from this line.  Due to the fact that folks have to wait, and they pay what we charge, they take better care of these dogs than they do their own family.  We have a clause in our puppy contract that states that at any point in the dogs life, if you can't care for the dog, we will gladly take it back in no questions asked.  We even go as far as offering their money back if the dog is not what they expected.  THERE IS NOTHING ELSE THAT CAN BE DONE TO ASSURE THAT THE DOGS DONT WIND UP IN SHELTERS.  We are not the exception.  Most all performance breeders that we know have similar agreements.

Please don't put California up as an example of how to do anything.  They have more laws than nearly any state in the union and more problems than anyone as well.

You also mean to tell me that "your" dog jumps fences, counter surfs, won't come when he's called, and hasn't been socialized got bit by another dog, and thats the fault of the kennel?  The dog lives its life with no rules and you expect it to follow the rules at a kennel?  To me, that is ridiculous.  Further I think the Ag department is not going to do anything about your "complaint".  The biggest thing that the Ag department looks at when they are here is the cleanliness and overall treatment of animals.  A dog getting bitten by another dog is not abuse.

One of the biggest problems that we see is the fact that people "humanize" their dogs.  Dogs are closer to being wild animals than they will ever be to being human.  I'm not saying don't love them, I'm saying don't treat them like people.  Every dog doesn't need to be rescued and every rescue didn't come from a breeder.

To sum everything up......

1.  Your dog needs to be confined when you're not around.  No matter how much training they've had.  They can all be tempted (see the goose example that started this thread).

2.  As better insurance, dogs should be microchipped (or tattooed), or wear a collar with owner's info on it.

3.  All breeders are not irresponsible.  I would venture to guess that the largest percentage of "breeders" go above and beyond what would be considered standard.

4.  California is not a good example of anything when it comes to legislation and solving problems.


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## JuliaH (Sep 17, 2012)

Interesting Duk!

AKC and the state (the state just for the license fees) both want to know how many pups have been sold in a year. 

AKC has a wonderful online record keeping system, and I have every name, address and phone of all my folks who have ever bought a pup from me.  I use that AKC system religiously 

Julia


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## DukTruk (Sep 17, 2012)

I forgot to address the "hard surface" stuff.  Whatever the "damage" is that can be caused by dogs living on hard surfaces to me is worth the risk in relation to cleanliness.  I do agree, if a young dog is continuously run on a hard surface, it can't be good for them.  However I know very few (if any) folks that "run dogs" on a hard surface.  When dogs are at our facility, they live inside on a concrete run (3' X 4' +/-).  We let them out to exercise on grass, mulch, gravel, etc.

If you are really concerned about the long term joint health of dogs, you should spend more time and effort researching proper dog food and feeding techniques.  There is a study that is going on currently that is linking dogs that have been "fixed" early to premature joint and cartilage failures.  This is due to the reduced amount of hormones that are produced during the young dogs development.


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## SonyaS (Sep 17, 2012)

DukTruk said:


> You also mean to tell me that "your" dog jumps fences, counter surfs, won't come when he's called, and hasn't been socialized got bit by another dog, and thats the fault of the kennel?  The dog lives its life with no rules and you expect it to follow the rules at a kennel?  To me, that is ridiculous.



This is a rescue dog! I just recently brought him into my house and I have no idea what his history is, I mentioned the counter surfing and the fence risk as I cannot tell whether he was a house dog or a kenneled hunter in his previous life.

As far as the kennel is concerned they messed up big time. They KNEW the two dogs didn't like each other, they broke up a near fight days before and told me about it, they said the dogs would be kept away from each other. Two days later they let one dog dash out of his OPEN  kennel and fight with the other dog, resulting in both dogs ending up at the emergency clinic with multiple bite wounds (apparently the two kennel attendants that were right there didn't know how to break up a dog fight either). The dog had been there for FIVE week's, they also have other rescue dogs, they should have known better.

That is negligent. They are a high end kennel that charges premium prices and they utterly failed. As a professional boarding kennel it is their JOB to ensure dogs that will harm each other are kept apart! Instead of apologizing they stick the owners with the vet bill AND charge the owners extra for having to drive the injured animals to the vet. They carry liability insurance for situations just like that yet instead they will blackmail the owners into paying for their mistake.

As far as the Ag Dept is concerned I spoke to the head of their Animal Services Division and he said safety IS one of the things they oversee. He assured me an inspector would be out there to investigate the complaint, I can contact them in a week to get a copy of the investigation report. Since they board aggressive dogs and have apparently have had several dogs escape (according to Animal Control) I expect they will take some interest in the complaint.


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## JohnBenoit09 (Sep 20, 2012)

Love your dog, make them happy, keep them healthy, control & contain your investment, and also let the instinct of each breed be exercised daily. (I think this solves and answers the question from both sides of the fence)


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## SonyaS (Sep 29, 2012)

DukTruk said:


> Further I think the Ag department is not going to do anything about your "complaint".  The biggest thing that the Ag department looks at when they are here is the cleanliness and overall treatment of animals.  A dog getting bitten by another dog is not abuse.



Yes well, I filed the complaint and the Ag Dept investigated it onsite two days later. They apparently went to the kennel and chatted up the kennel staff and while they didn't cite them they DID get a signed and official statement which is useful.

The Ag Dept got  a signed statement from the kennel manager saying this was an "accident" and the kennel had a staff meeting to discuss how to improve dog handling procedures, that the kennel fully intended to pay the e-vet bill, they even brought a check to the e-vet clinic.

They never offered me that check they just charged me extra for driving him to the vet. Signed statements submitted to gov officials pretty much mean that kennel will be sending me a check to cover the e-vet bill or I will be whooping their behind in small claims court. I also learned the Pit Bull was NOT being boarded, the kennel actually owns the dog that put several bite wounds into the Coonhound.  It isn't about the vet bill, it is about the fact that I trusted them and spent a lot of money with them and they were total jerks when this situation occurred, they lied shamelessly and that is just plain not right. 



DukTruk said:


> One of the biggest problems that we see is the fact that people "humanize" their dogs.



I don't humanize dogs, I like them BECAUSE they are dogs and not human! I do my best to provide comforts for them though (soft beds, treats, kind words, companionship so they aren't bored, they would never be alone or isolated in a cage in the wild, they are social PACK animals).  

The Coonhound took to big fluffy dog beds and chewies pretty darn quick even though I believe he was a kenneled hunting dog, plus I just figured out when he has a remote training collar on he also understands basic commands such as "come here" and "QUIET!", seems that collar raised his IQ by about 60 pts after only one really mild correction.


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## BulldogsNBama (Oct 19, 2012)

JohnBenoit09 said:


> Love your dog, make them happy, keep them healthy, control & contain your investment, and also let the instinct of each breed be exercised daily. (I think this solves and answers the question from both sides of the fence)



Love it!  ^^^  I just found a great quote to add as the first line on my puppy packets, I will be sending home with the new owners.  Thanks John!


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## redman2006 (Oct 24, 2012)

I have been avoiding this area of GON Forums for a while because of how heated things get without any answers.

Anyway, I stumbled in here and this one got me curious.

Julia, I am a little confused.  Specifically, what problem are you refering to?  The overpopulation and euthanization of healthy pets because of irresponsible owners, or the return of lost pets?  I am probably a little dense, but I am confused.

Regardless, this comes down to those that take on a pet/hunter/partner/family member or whatever you want to call it, being responsible for their decision and stewards of the animal.  

This includes making sure that they stay home, and can get back home on the off chance that they do follow their nose too far.

It includes making sure they do not produce unwanted pups and finding good homes for them when they do reproduce.

It means making sure your dog has something to improve the breed and not just your pokcketbook before you breed it.

It means providing the minimum of veterinary care for not just their health, but to ensure the health of those that come in contact with the pet.

It means being responsible for our decision as an owner and doing what we know is right, not what is convenient.

The problem is, we can't even get people to do that with their own children, how can we get them to do it with pets?


As to the chips, contact me.   I may be able to help.

I do believe in them.  All shelters and decent rescues have a reader to help get the dogs home.  Almost every vet I know of has a universal reader too.  Anyone finding a pet that wants to know can swing by a clinic or shelter to scan a critter and make sure they do not have a home.

One issue we have with chips from our local shelter is that no one takes the time, even when it is prepaid, to register them or update information when they move or change phones.  It makes it tough to get the pets home that way.

The more pets that have chips, the more people will know to have strays checked.   We need to reach a "critical mass" so knowledge of chips is more widespread.  You as a breeder can help us do that.  

We have gotten a lot of pets back to the right homes with those, including one that got here from Florida somehow.  There are some really heart warming stories that are just too long to type out here.  Even crotchety ol' coon hunters will choke up on one or two of them!  LOL


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## JuliaH (Oct 24, 2012)

Hi Redman 

I started this thread because things were getting heated on another thread and this gave us a way to expose one another's thoughts and feelings and ideas. 



> Julia, I am a little confused. Specifically, what problem are you refering to? The overpopulation and euthanization of healthy pets because of irresponsible owners, or the return of lost pets? I am probably a little dense, but I am confused.



You are not dense at all. I started out talking about irresponsible owners being more a problem than breeders. Now, to clarify further, I differentiate between breeders and folks who just let their pets or whatever get pregnant, and then have to deal with the results. Those folks will not be touched by the laws springing up to limit or tax (with kennel licenses and other $$ rules that breeders have to pay) breeders. I am a licensed breeder, but the state does not care about much other than the $$ they collect. My county makes me have a business license... for the $$ collected, not for the welfare of the animals. And people who don't take proper care or precautions now will not when the politically correct run breeders out of the marketplace. 

Also was talking about lost pets and getting them home again, but not to the same extent.  When Rusty got lost (flyer at the beginning of the conversation) I called every organization, vet and dog pound in our area. I have also been more careful since then... I know what can happen and it won't get another chance to happen 



> Regardless, this comes down to those that take on a pet/hunter/partner/family member or whatever you want to call it, being responsible for their decision and stewards of the animal.



Absolutely correct!! I have had to put another couple of kennels in, just in case. I have taken back only a few of my pups, but everyone that leaves here has it in writing that the dog or pup can always come back to me for my use or for proper rehoming.



> This includes making sure that they stay home, and can get back home on the off chance that they do follow their nose too far.
> 
> It includes making sure they do not produce unwanted pups and finding good homes for them when they do reproduce.



Yes again, as in the case of Rusty.  

And yes on pups. I produce no unwanted pups and normally have a waiting list these days. My kennels are (except 2) NOT chain link because the dogs can stretch the wire and get out if they have enough desire. No kennel is on the dirt or grass either. Wood floor, horse mats and cement under all mine, so no dog can dig in or out. Also tops on a good number, as some of my dogs will climb.  There is little reason for oops litters if we are careful.



> It means making sure your dog has something to improve the breed and not just your pocketbook before you breed it.
> 
> It means providing the minimum of veterinary care for not just their health, but to ensure the health of those that come in contact with the pet.



Yes again... I am working for my breed. I am not perfect and I have a lot to learn. Breeding is an art and a science and 2 good dogs don't necessarily produce a full litter of good dogs. 

Yes, I am up to date on health care. 



> It means being responsible for our decision as an owner and doing what we know is right, not what is convenient.
> 
> The problem is, we can't even get people to do that with their own children, how can we get them to do it with pets?



Boy did you hit the nail on the head with the last sentence. That is the root of the problem, in my opinion. When I worked for a vet, I saw too much of it. Responsible pet owners abound, but so do the others. 

Now, with all that said, I know I did not have to answer all the points you made, but I wanted to. I am a long way from everything being as good as I want it to be... but my dogs are healthy, cared for and carefully bred. Some of my work dealing with breeding is to help meet expenses. This is not a get rich on puppies idea. I have dogs at the trainers and running field trials and it is expensive. The pups have paid to build my kennel and pay my trainers, but the pups are never without the option to come home  

I would love to see rescues and breeders working together on a better plane for the good of the animals and for the possible control of irresponsible owners and puppy mills. 

I have mixed feelings on chips, but it works when those who need to read them will, or those who find a lost pet will take them to the vet or shelter to get them read. Some of mine are chipped and some are not. It did not help Rusty to be chipped when he was lost. I do, however, discuss microchipping and neutering with clients 

I am glad you came to the thread, even though my answer was long and detailed. It is good for us to talk about this stuff and not just sweep it under the rug. SonyaS and I have a much better relationship on this very forum as a result of a better understanding of one another, so there has been a positive result. 

Julia


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## redman2006 (Oct 25, 2012)

To OFA or CERF etc, the pet has to be ID'ed in a permanent way.  Either a chip or a tattoo.  I like the chip because it does other things, like get them home, as well.  The tattoo is great because it is visible, but what do you put on it that will get them home?

I suggest Homeagain chips.  I like them as far as realiability and universality (is that a word?).  THey also have a program with that brand, that if you keep up the registration ($16 a year) the dog is covered with insurance as well.   $700 of travel expenses should he get too far away.  
I know this is not a thread about chips, but I thought I would pass it along.

Also, I am all for responsible breeding.  There is a place for it.  It is the people that breed for the pocketbook alone with disregard for the breed standards or betterment that frustrate me.

The ones that breed "so the kids can see the miracle of birth" then have no place for the pups so they take them to the river....wellllllll.  My comments about these would get me banned I am sure.  <G>


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## JuliaH (Oct 25, 2012)

Redman,

I will check into Home Again chips!  I did not know about the insurance part... The only tattoo I think might get a pet home is a phone number, but how many that find that lost pet would realize the numbers mean something. I used to tattoo rabbits, but never dogs...



> The ones that breed "so the kids can see the miracle of birth" then have no place for the pups so they take them to the river....wellllllll.  My comments about these would get me banned I am sure.



Me too. I have no respect for that. 

Julia



redman2006 said:


> To OFA or CERF etc, the pet has to be ID'ed in a permanent way.  Either a chip or a tattoo.  I like the chip because it does other things, like get them home, as well.  The tattoo is great because it is visible, but what do you put on it that will get them home?
> 
> I suggest Homeagain chips.  I like them as far as realiability and universality (is that a word?).  THey also have a program with that brand, that if you keep up the registration ($16 a year) the dog is covered with insurance as well.  The insurance covers injury up to $2500 that occurs while the pet is lost and $400 of travel expenses should he get too far away.  The one catch, the dog has to be reported missing before it is found injured.
> 
> ...


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## redman2006 (Oct 25, 2012)

Yep, and how often do phone numbers change in the 15 years you have your dog?  

I have used AKC registration numbers, but they will not get them home.  I usually tat and chip all my registered dogs.  The mutts don't have a registry number, so I don't have anything to put on there that is worthwhile.  

My hope is that if the dog slips a collar, the tattoo might at least make someone take them to the shelter or vet to be scanned.  Luckily, my dogs (knock on wood) have never wondered off.


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## JuliaH (Oct 25, 2012)

Rusty and Hazel are my biggest culprits for wandering off, because they found the pond and geese across the road. Problem is the road is a busy highway (2 lane but busy) and cars don't slow down for dogs.

Now, when they are not working and in their e-collars, they are turned out on long runs. Part of my yard looks like old fashioned clothes lines...lol. But this way they are safe. 

It didn't take long to figure out that GSP and Brittany alike, they follow their nose. 

One dog lost to hit by car and Rusty almost lost (couple years apart but lesson learned never to be forgotten) ... now VERY cautious!

Julia


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## K9SAR (Oct 25, 2012)

Both of our dogs wear their collars when they are outside of the home (as in as soon as we decide to go outside.)  Their collars contain a clear and easy-to-ride Name/Phone Number tag (and we have updated the tags when our numbers changed,) a tag alerting someone that they are microchipped (though if they are picked up by a county/city/Vet they are scanned anyways,) as well as a Rabies license tag. 

We also worked on training them not to scoot out when a door is opened, to stay in our property (though our farm is fenced and cross-fenced with field fencing,) and they are "inside dogs."  

I don't know about outside or kennel dogs and preventing them from escaping or getting stolen. I don't have any experience with that.  

As far as a "chain of responsibility" when it comes to being a breeder and selling/finding homes for pups, I have no idea.  I see some of the greatest and most responsible breeders out there end up in shear terror when they get a phone call from an Animal Control Officer saying that the microchip was scanned, and they have their dog/owner not answering (or owner turned in.)


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## JuliaH (Oct 25, 2012)

K9SAR said:


> As far as a "chain of responsibility" when it comes to being a breeder and selling/finding homes for pups, I have no idea.  I see some of the greatest and most responsible breeders out there end up in shear terror when they get a phone call from an Animal Control Officer saying that the microchip was scanned, and they have their dog/owner not answering (or owner turned in.)



Understood in most of your post. And there is no way to keep a thief out of your kennel, except that the dogs are very good at barking when a stranger shows up... and even that might not get enough time... 

But I don't understand what you mean by a breeder hanging up in sheer terror when animal control calls... if one of mine disappears the animal control folks are among the first I call to alert them   Please expand more on that part.

Julia


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## K9SAR (Oct 29, 2012)

JuliaH said:


> But I don't understand what you mean by a breeder hanging up in sheer terror when animal control calls... if one of mine disappears the animal control folks are among the first I call to alert them   Please expand more on that part.



I absolutely did not say "hanging up in shear terror."



K9SAR said:


> As far as a "chain of responsibility" when it comes to being a breeder and selling/finding homes for pups, I have no idea.  *I see some of the greatest and most responsible breeders out there end up in shear terror when they get a phone call from an Animal Control Officer saying that the microchip was scanned, and they have their dog/owner not answering (or owner turned in.*)



Re-read what I typed.  ^^

I said I have no idea how to remedy the situation in regards to GUARANTEEING that a dog remains where it does with the owner it does.......as I have seen even the most responsible breeders out there end up in shear terror [because they cannot believe their dogs are there] when they get a call from ACO saying they have their dog (or a dog co-registered to them on the microchip information.) 


I'm talking about preventing that call from occurring in the first place.


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## JuliaH (Oct 29, 2012)

K9SAR said:


> I absolutely did not say "hanging up in shear terror."



My quote was taken directly from your post. No words added or subtracted. 



Re-read what I typed.  ^^


> I said I have no idea how to remedy the situation in regards to GUARANTEEING that a dog remains where it does with the owner it does.......as I have seen even the most responsible breeders out there end up in shear terror [because they cannot believe their dogs are there] when they get a call from ACO saying they have their dog (or a dog co-registered to them on the microchip information.)
> 
> 
> I'm talking about preventing that call from occurring in the first place.



Ok, if you had said it the way you just explained, I could address it and will  

Once a dog leaves a breeder's hands there are no guarantees. We all would like to think there are, but there are not. 

If I get a call on a dog that is microchipped then I would call the owner, and one of us would bail out said dog within reason. I cannot travel to distances beyond fair driving distance, but I would contact the owner. I have records (not shared for owners' protection) on every pup I have ever sold. 

The few that have come home to me... only 1 had been mistreated. The others have been sadly given up for personal reasons and one family came back for their dog because they figured out the problem and were able to care for her. 

There is no reason for any reputable breeder to ever hang up in sheer terror from a phone call from any rescue, animal control, veterinary clinic (unless the dog was deathly sick or hurt), or police department. There could be reason for an angry breeder because a dog may have been neglected... like one I had come home... but I think you may be over-reacting a bit.

The dogs to be more concerned about are the ones we all see dumped, or sometimes the free ones. There is no tracking, no paperwork, no contracts.... nothing on most of those.  I do realize, before I get misunderstood by those who love their pets and have to find new homes for them, that not every pet or hunting dog or even show dog can stay with folks who love them.  Many reputable people can and do help with those as often as possible, and God bless them for doing so!

Julia


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## SonyaS (Nov 11, 2012)

JuliaH said:


> The few that have come home to me... only 1 had been mistreated. The others have been sadly given up for personal reasons and one family came back for their dog because they figured out the problem and were able to care for her.



Well if you don't microchip most WON'T come home to you. When the owners can't keep the dog, or get tired of keeping the dog,  they will give them away to a "friend" or on craigs list or dump them at a shelter and you won't be bothered by it.

Very few will reach out to the breeder that they haven't spoken to in years.


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## JuliaH (Nov 12, 2012)

Microchipping has been quite an issue. It is a good idea, but it does not help unless the "finder" gets the dog scanned. 

Tell you what... if you find one of mine on Craigslist or at a shelter, let me know. I have already explained the difference that I believe from a breeder and someone who just raises pups. 

Julia


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