# Introductions?



## Day trip (Apr 29, 2018)

Hi, I typically stay in the fishing forum but browse this one from time to time.  I was hoping to get to know you all a bit.  Would you mind giving a brief history of yourself so maybe we can all develop a better relationship for communicating?


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## Mexican Squealer (Apr 29, 2018)

Oh my


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## WaltL1 (Apr 30, 2018)

Mexican Squealer said:


> Oh my


When Trip asked for a brief history of ourselves I don't think he meant that brief


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## WaltL1 (Apr 30, 2018)

Hi I'm Walt and I'm a recovering Roman Catholic 
Enjoy fishing, don't hunt a lot anymore but when I do its turkey hunting. Collect militaria. Was in the Marine Corps.
As for why I discuss/debate here its mainly the psychological aspect of religion that interests me.
As for how I view Christians, their religiosity is near the bottom of the list of what I find "important" about them.
Don't have anything against "God" but reject organized religion.
As far what I call myself I would say Agnostic but through discussing here, not sure there is actually much difference between Agnostic/Atheist.
Go to church twice a year. Not sure of the official name but on the anniversary of a loved ones death, on request the priest will offer up a prayer during mass for them and I attend that for my Grandmother and Grandfather.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 30, 2018)

Mexican Squealer said:


> Oh my



"oh my....." isn't that what George Takei (from Star Trek)
is always crediting as saying when people imitate him?
Finally we have a celebrity on board!


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## 660griz (Apr 30, 2018)

This thread may start to rival farmersonly.com


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## WaltL1 (Apr 30, 2018)

Come on guys, I'm starting to feel a little weird being the only one to answer his request 
Certainly its voluntary and yeah us regulars here basically "know" each other but still!


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## jmharris23 (Apr 30, 2018)

I'm 41 years old and have a wife and 4 kids. I've been a Christian for 33 of those 41 years. I believe in a God.I believe that God is the God of the bible and I believe that the bible is the inspired Word of God. 

For the last 16 years I have pastored a church in a fairly rural spot in Georgia. 

I moderate this forum and read every thread but I don't comment much here anymore. It just runs around in circles and I don't have as much free time as I used to.


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Come on guys, I'm starting to feel a little weird being the only one to answer his request
> Certainly its voluntary and yeah us regulars here basically "know" each other but still!



Lol.


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> I'm 41 years old and have a wife and 4 kids. I've been a Christian for 33 of those 41 years. I believe in a God.I believe that God is the God of the bible and I believe that the bible is the inspired Word of God.
> 
> For the last 16 years I have pastored a church in a fairly rural spot in Georgia.
> 
> I moderate this forum and read every thread but I don't comment much here anymore. It just runs around in circles and I don't have as much free time as I used to.



We generally do run around in circles but Daytrip is a bit different.


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## Day trip (Apr 30, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> We generally do run around in circles but Daytrip is a bit different.



Hey! Easy now. 


Thank you Walt, my purpose is to get everyone interested  to connect as humans instead of operating from the false persona of our user names. Certainly we can still throw jabs or what fun would this be?  Maybe by connecting a little we can see clear enough to walk in each other’s skin for a minute.  


Ok, I’ll go.  Cradle Catholic, love to fish down in the salty parts of Savannah (hence my user name - Day trip), three awesome children, super awesome wife who absolutely wont discuss religion at all.  She is a moderate Catholic whose faith and ability to “walk the walk” without talking the talk is completely frustrating to me.  She is better than I am to say the least.  I’m 45 and somewhat hard to get to know in real life.  Anyway, after adolescence I didn’t like church talk so I left it all behind, wandered in “the desert”, submitted to many temptations and resisted a few but found myself mercifully excused enough to wonder why.  Went searching and am still searching.


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## Day trip (Apr 30, 2018)

660griz said:


> This thread may start to rival farmersonly.com



Why Griz?  You like to hunt or are you gruff?


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 30, 2018)

Okay I'll answer. But since this thread is in the Atheists etc. category I'll keep it focused to these matters:

Married with two adult children, and I believe there most likely is a "higher power" in the vast universe that no human religions fully grasp. That said I believe there are things that seem supernatural only because we don't understand them and are untestable because they come & go at random. But these things have nothing to do with good & evil. 

As for Christianity if it brings you peace and the cost isn't harming other people in the process, it's a good thing. Anything positive is a good thing. But there are some things I can't get past. The main problem I have with Christianity is eternal punishment.  I just cannot equate that with justice, fairness, mercy or love. Yes, nobody can understand the mind of god, but having the ability to do any and all things in this universe and "the cherry on top" is billions of eternally tortured souls speaks volumes. The ultimate act of violence & cruelty....wow.   Heck of a way to run a railroad.

The second problem is human nature is to tell stories. Stories entertain, they educate, they motivate/inspire us, etc. Stories are also very elastic and change from person-to-person within minutes, and within generation stories change a lot. Factor in human imagination and you have a lot of spillover between fact & fiction. The bible is no exception to this. Thus the bible has countless examples of things that modern society cannot believe happened without "well that's god for you! He can do anything" keeping your disbelief on a tight leash. 

Also I have a hard time with denying evolution and the whole six day creation story. Sometimes the simplest solution is the best solution. Evolution is simple: things start out very basic and eventually get more complex. Everything evolves to meet a changing environment or greater challenges. Music, science, sports, machines, you name it. Nothing ever appears fully formed as great as it can get in the first attempt. The first car was not a Mercedes Benz. It took many generations. The first music was not a classical orchestra symphony, it was people whistling most likely. The first humans only appeared after many generations of gradual changes as needed to adapt to what we are now, and there are many examples of fossils we can see to prove this. 

And dare I say it but thinking one cultures fantastical myths and beliefs are true but thinking that the thousand or so (across the globe, past & present) other culture's fantastical myths are fantasy borders on arrogance and mathematically doesn't stack up. 

Forum categories like this are great. They illustrate the wide, wide range of ideas and beliefs that outdoor enthusiasts here in Georgia can share about deep subjects - the deepest subjects anyone can imagine really - mankind's ultimate role in this world (and the next).


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> Hey! Easy now.
> 
> 
> Thank you Walt, my purpose is to get everyone interested  to connect as humans instead of operating from the false persona of our user names. Certainly we can still throw jabs or what fun would this be?  Maybe by connecting a little we can see clear enough to walk in each other’s skin for a minute.
> ...



I meant you're different as a compliment.  You're not a fundamentalist (there a couple of other guys on here who are less conventional in their faith as well) and that makes for more fruitful, enjoyable conversation.  You'll notice that the debates here occur between dogmatists and skeptics.  Everyone else discusses.

I've fished with Walt and JB (who isn't around much anymore) and have met a couple of other GON'ers in real life and have found that people are generally as decent as they present themselves here.  

I'm Kurt (in name and demeanor).  Pleased to meet you.  I'm 48 and have a 9 year old daughter and a wife.  I'm a self employed contractor.  I didn't have a strong church background, Sunday School, Vacation Bible School, etc.  When we went it was to a Methodist church.   My father became a Born Again Christian and a SBC pastor when I was in H.S.  I graduated from a Baptist High School and became an atheist in college. 

My biggest criticisms of religion are the supernatural claims and the particular way that it lends people to self righteousness.  I'm a skeptic and I suppose an objectivist, but I don't seek happiness as an ultimate goal. Pretty good isn't bad and it could be worse.


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2018)

Do you think that God is a being?  What kind of being?  Does he have a consciousness and does he involve himself in human matters?


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2018)

Do you think that the process by which you get a sense of god is reliable?


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 30, 2018)

3 kids and lottery wife, Raised baptist, started studying the bible at 30. About 35 I had issue with the HS being a coequal 3rd person. Being it was essential to the trinity, I started digging deeper. Eventually having issue with the entire trinity, I went to carm discussion forum, the trinity forum specifically looking for some help in shoring up my crumbling belief in the trinity. Instead of finding concrete, I found sand, and then spent 5 years debating it. I have studied in depth the early church, the early church fathers writings, the "other" writings that were not canonized. I learned to read, but not speak greek, checking every translation against the original greek. I decided to leave the Baptist church because I could not continue to teach and be a deacon and was not willing to come out of the closet as a non trinitarian. I miss the people and  the hymns, but have 1000% confidence that I have searched out the truth. I don't lie to myself, the bible is what it is. It holds the stories about the faith I believe in, but it is not without error and contradiction, but why would it not be, having been penned by man. I believe in the God of the OT, that Jesus was the messiah, that he has been raised from the dead, the firstborn of many brothers, that he has regained what Adam lost, that as the firstborn son of God, that the remainder of the family need not offer anymore sacrifices, that the firstborn fully satisfied this. I never, ever, use any biblical jargon that is foreign to the scriptures to explain my faith.


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> 3 kids and lottery wife, Raised baptist, started studying the bible at 30. About 35 I had issue with the HS being a coequal 3rd person. Being it was essential to the trinity, I started digging deeper. Eventually having issue with the entire trinity, I went to carm discussion forum, the trinity forum specifically looking for some help in shoring up my crumbling belief in the trinity. Instead of finding concrete, I found sand, and then spent 5 years debating it. I have studied in depth the early church, the early church fathers writings, the "other" writings that were not canonized. I learned to read, but not speak greek, checking every translation against the original greek. I decided to leave the Baptist church because I could not continue to teach and be a deacon and was not willing to come out of the closet as a non trinitarian. I miss the people and  the hymns, but have 1000% confidence that I have searched out the truth. I don't lie to myself, the bible is what it is. It holds the stories about the faith I believe in, but it is not without error and contradiction, but why would it not be, having been penned by man. I believe in the God of the OT, that Jesus was the messiah, that he has been raised from the dead, the firstborn of many brothers, that he has regained what Adam lost, that as the firstborn son of God, that the remainder of the family need not offer anymore sacrifices, that the firstborn fully satisfied this. I never, ever, use any biblical jargon that is foreign to the scriptures to explain my faith.



Why do you believe that a man can be raised from the dead after three days?  How about the flying into the sky part?  Do you believe any of the other miracles?


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 30, 2018)

ambush 80 mentioned not liking the supernatural claims.

IMO supernatural claims are the point of Christianity - without the supernatural Christianity would only be a philosophy. Jesus would just be a young Jew with a popular (well to his believers anyway) new way of thinking. He has to be able to do what the other people cannot do or nobody would believe he is the son of god. Rising from the dead (although apparently that is more common than I thought until I started following this forum category and found out different) is one way, plus water into wine, walking on water, and all the other miracles.


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## 660griz (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> Why Griz?


 Just an odd request. You are on GON, in the AAA forum. It wouldn't take a whole lot of reading to find out where folks stand. 





> You like to hunt or are you gruff?


Why has it got to be or? Maybe both. 
I do like to hunt, and shoot, and fish, and ride ATVs and scuba dive, and hike, and camp, and play volleyball, tennis, softball, basketball, football (not soccer), and long walks on the beach. Oh, and I like puppies. Gonna start playing Pickle ball. Looks fun. Lately, all I have time for is work, either at the office or at home.

Married, 3 kids, all the kids are grown and out. Yeah!
By trade, I am in information security. 
And, I am a raving atheist. Raised Southern Baptist.  

I currently wear a size 11 shoe but, I think with a toe nail trim I can get that to a 10.5. We'll see.

I don't know my IQ but, I am sure it is between Forest Gump and Stephen Hawking.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 30, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Why do you believe that a man can be raised from the dead after three days?  How about the flying into the sky part?  Do you believe any of the other miracles?


 I believe that Jesus could do miracles. This was how they would know that he was sent. How they was supposed to know that he was the messiah, just the same as Moses. However the miracles we have recorded.... subject to embellishments. As far as being raised from the dead. I believe that there is an afterlife, a restoration to the original direction of man being eternal before the curse of time. I don't particularly think 3 days has anything to do with it. Whether Jesus's grave was found empty or body stolen, does not matter to me. I believe he entered into the afterlife, where he is referred to as the firstborn of many brothers. As far as flying..... or walking on water..... embellishments from oral stories being penned by a stranger 60 years after the fact. However, I acknowledge your point, it's still the equivalent of believing in Santa Claus. To that, I can only say, sometimes I feel as though I don't have a choice in what I believe, as if I have been programmed to believe as I do. I wholeheartedly will take my stand without waiver or back door escape plan, that there is a God, the God in the bible, whom chose a people to reveal himself to, whom made promises that he will one day keep, that Jesus, a man, anointed by God, fulfilled  a way that the original intention for man, might be restored. And again, just my own belief, with zero evidence.


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> ambush 80 mentioned not liking the supernatural claims.
> 
> IMO supernatural claims are the point of Christianity - without the supernatural Christianity would only be a philosophy. Jesus would just be a young Jew with a popular (well to his believers anyway) new way of thinking. He has to be able to do what the other people cannot do or nobody would believe he is the son of god. Rising from the dead (although apparently that is more common than I thought until I started following this forum category and found out different) is one way, plus water into wine, walking on water, and all the other miracles.



I think it's true that the supernatural claims (resurrection, healing, Heaven and He11) are presently the point of Christianity.  Well, maybe not the point but they are integral to the point which is salvation.  There are Christians who follow the example of Christ as a guide of how to act.  That's a very different concern.  That goal seems less likely to create division.  It also doesn't require anyone to make claims about reality that are unfounded.  As far as I can tell, those are net pluses.


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> I believe that Jesus could do miracles. This was how they would know that he was sent. How they was supposed to know that he was the messiah, just the same as Moses. However the miracles we have recorded.... subject to embellishments. As far as being raised from the dead. I believe that there is an afterlife, a restoration to the original direction of man being eternal before the curse of time. I don't particularly think 3 days has anything to do with it. Whether Jesus's grave was found empty or body stolen, does not matter to me. I believe he entered into the afterlife, where he is referred to as the firstborn of many brothers. As far as flying..... or walking on water..... embellishments from oral stories being penned by a stranger 60 years after the fact. However, I acknowledge your point, it's still the equivalent of believing in Santa Claus. To that, I can only say, sometimes I feel as though I don't have a choice in what I believe, as if I have been programmed to believe as I do. I wholeheartedly will take my stand without waiver or back door escape plan, that there is a God, the God in the bible, whom chose a people to reveal himself to, whom made promises that he will one day keep, that Jesus, a man, anointed by God, fulfilled  a way that the original intention for man, might be restored. And again, just my own belief, with zero evidence.



That's pretty brave to admit that.  If it's making you a better person then best wishes to you.  If your belief leads you to positions that affect other people in a negative way then that's a problem.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 30, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I think it's true that the supernatural claims (resurrection, healing, Heaven and He11) are presently the point of Christianity.  Well, maybe not the point but they are integral to the point which is salvation.  There are Christians who follow the example of Christ as a guide of how to act.  That's a very different concern.  That goal seems less likely to create division.  It also doesn't require anyone to make claims about reality that are unfounded.  As far as I can tell, those are net pluses.



this makes it seems to me that Christianity is "evolving" or at least adapting bit-by-bit. Granted all denominations are different but certain aspects of Christianity are being downplayed or increased as the membership attitudes adapt over time. A few generations from now (or perhaps many generations) if you could live long enough you might not recognize a church service. So fast forward a few thousand years and.....wow.

I'm thinking maybe the early church actually thought Jesus return/end of the world process would start within their lifetimes or a generation or two. After a few centuries the church had to reevaluate this idea. Eventually it might be reinterpreted even more as more & more ideas are examined among the vast expanse of cultures practicing Christianity. Everything.....yes everything - changes over a long enough timeline.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> Hey! Easy now.
> 
> 
> Thank you Walt, my purpose is to get everyone interested  to connect as humans instead of operating from the false persona of our user names. Certainly we can still throw jabs or what fun would this be?  Maybe by connecting a little we can see clear enough to walk in each other’s skin for a minute.
> ...





> love to fish down in the salty parts of Savannah


Ever fish the salt in the Beaufort/Port Royal/Hunting Island area? (a little past Savannah near Hilton Head)


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## Day trip (Apr 30, 2018)

660griz said:


> Just an odd request. You are on GON, in the AAA forum. It wouldn't take a whole lot of reading to find out where folks stand.
> Why has it got to be or? Maybe both.
> I do like to hunt, and shoot, and fish, and ride ATVs and scuba dive, and hike, and camp, and play volleyball, tennis, softball, basketball, football (not soccer), and long walks on the beach. Oh, and I like puppies. Gonna start playing Pickle ball. Looks fun. Lately, all I have time for is work, either at the office or at home.
> 
> ...




That wasn’t so bad now was it?  

Have a feeling we would get along real good.  Sarcasm is my first language too.


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> this makes it seems to me that Christianity is "evolving" or at least adapting bit-by-bit. Granted all denominations are different but certain aspects of Christianity are being downplayed or increased as the membership attitudes adapt over time. A few generations from now (or perhaps many generations) if you could live long enough you might not recognize a church service. So fast forward a few thousand years and.....wow.
> 
> I'm thinking maybe the early church actually thought Jesus return/end of the world process would start within their lifetimes or a generation or two. After a few centuries the church had to reevaluate this idea. Eventually it might be reinterpreted even more as more & more ideas are examined among the vast expanse of cultures practicing Christianity. Everything.....yes everything - changes over a long enough timeline.



Technology and widespread access to knowledge seem to be the driving forces behind the secular reformation of religions.  I think that we'll continue to refine the study of spirituality in such a way that the benefits of it will become universal.


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## Day trip (Apr 30, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Technology and widespread access knowledge seem to be the driving forces behind the secular reformation of religions.  I think that we'll continue to refine the study of spirituality in such a way that the benefits of it will become universal.



I love this!  It’s getting to the point that, “because I said so” doesn’t cut it.  How do you picture the evolution of spirituality over time?


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## WaltL1 (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> That wasn’t so bad now was it?
> 
> Have a feeling we would get along real good.  Sarcasm is my first language too.


It was this that sealed the deal wasn't it? 


> and long walks on the beach.


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> I love this!  It’s getting to the point that, “because I said so” doesn’t cut it.  How do you picture the evolution of spirituality over time?



It depends on what advancements we make technologically.  I only disbelieve in a "spiritual" realm because there's no evidence for one.  There's so much about matter and time and space and consciousness that we don't understand.  If evidence for it comes in we won't have to guess or speculate or use feelings about the spiritual realm anymore.  

Playing Jesus' advocate, I understand the appeal to authority. It seems to me that the mistake is contributing agency where there's no real good evidence for it.


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> I love this!  It’s getting to the point that, “because I said so” doesn’t cut it.  How do you picture the evolution of spirituality over time?



We talk about "The God of the Gaps" often, but I realize that the gaps are big enough that god could be lurking in there somewhere.  I would be really disappointed if he cared about many of the things that religion says he does.


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## Day trip (Apr 30, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> It was this that sealed the deal wasn't it?



No way, it was the toe nail trim, just about vomited my lunch


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## bullethead (Apr 30, 2018)

I've said my introduction/history so many times in here that I just do not have the will to post it all again.

Quick run down..
48yrs old.
3 adult boys/men
Been with the same woman since I am 15 and she 16. We will be married 29 years this August.
Born and raised a believer. Baptized Catholic,  raised Lutheran Protestant, married in a Catholic Church.
Practiced religion into my early 20's. Didn't like the people that surrounded me in church. Had some issues with organized religion. Set out to use the bible to reinforce my beliefs and was shocked when the opposite happened. It took me to mid to late 20's to admit that what I thought I knew might wrong and more years to say it out loud and talk about it.
I am not sure what if anything regarding a higher power is out there. I know that I don't know it if there is. And I am 99.99% convinced that nobody else does either.


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## Day trip (Apr 30, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I've said my introduction/history so many times in here that I just do not have the will to post it all again.
> 
> Quick run down..
> 48yrs old.
> ...



Thanks for doing it one more time.  For me, I’m getting pictures of real people with real experiences.  I for one have read each intro a few times even though I haven’t commented on them all.  Thanks everyone


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## Day trip (Apr 30, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> We talk about "The God of the Gaps" often, but I realize that the gaps are big enough that god could be lurking in there somewhere.  I would be really disappointed if he cared about many of the things that religion says he does.



It seems virtually all of the people in here have outgrown organized religion.  We are all obviously interested in relationships otherwise we wouldn’t be here.  That “God of Gaps” (never heard that before),  this is where he lives.  The stigma of religious terms may turn you away but this is the essence of the Trinity.   

“The energy in the universe is not in the planets or in the protons or neutrons, but in the relationship between them. Not in the particles but in the space between them. Not in the cells of organisms but in the way the cells feed and give feedback to one another. Not in any precise definition of the three persons of the Trinity as much as in the relationship between the Three! This is where all the power for infinite renewal is at work:
The loving relationship between them. The infinite love flowing between them. The dance itself.”
Fr. Richard Rohr


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## WaltL1 (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> It seems virtually all of the people in here have outgrown organized religion.  We are all obviously interested in relationships otherwise we wouldn’t be here.  That “God of Gaps” (never heard that before),  this is where he lives.  The stigma of religious terms may turn you away but this is the essence of the Trinity.
> 
> “The energy in the universe is not in the planets or in the protons or neutrons, but in the relationship between them. Not in the particles but in the space between them. Not in the cells of organisms but in the way the cells feed and give feedback to one another. Not in any precise definition of the three persons of the Trinity as much as in the relationship between the Three! This is where all the power for infinite renewal is at work:
> The loving relationship between them. The infinite love flowing between them. The dance itself.”
> Fr. Richard Rohr


Just a comment -


> It seems virtually all of the people in here have outgrown organized religion.


I cant speak for everybody though I know this to be true for most all of us..... we didn't simply "outgrow" religion like an old t-shirt or just lost interest.
Lots and lots of thought, research etc went into it. As you have noticed most all of us come from a religious background. Many of our family and friends are still Christians/religious.  In some cases we have hurt them, worry them, not to mention the thought of a Heaven can be a quite comforting thing.
It wasn't necessarily an easy decision to get to where we are now.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 30, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Just a comment -
> 
> I cant speak for everybody though I know this to be true for most all of us..... we didn't simply "outgrow" religion like an old t-shirt or just lost interest.
> Lots and lots of thought, research etc went into it. As you have noticed most all of us come from a religious background. Many of our family and friends are still Christians/religious.  In some cases we have hurt them, worry them, not to mention the thought of a Heaven can be a quite comforting thing.
> It wasn't necessarily an easy decision to get to where we are now.


Even though I am still a believer, my journey "away" from the traditional stuff was a hard journey..... It was a struggle. You tell yourself, I must be crazy.... how could I, a single person, be right.... and so many wrong. I kept thinking.... that solid ground would be discovered, just dig deeper. Anything I could say would not explain the degree of struggle. I wanted to be wrong. So,,,  I assume you guys did not just wake up athiest one day.... I assume it to was a struggle, a period in your life that you don't want to repeat


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> It seems virtually all of the people in here have outgrown organized religion.  We are all obviously interested in relationships otherwise we wouldn’t be here.  That “God of Gaps” (never heard that before),  this is where he lives.  The stigma of religious terms may turn you away but this is the essence of the Trinity.
> 
> “The energy in the universe is not in the planets or in the protons or neutrons, but in the relationship between them. Not in the particles but in the space between them. Not in the cells of organisms but in the way the cells feed and give feedback to one another. Not in any precise definition of the three persons of the Trinity as much as in the relationship between the Three! This is where all the power for infinite renewal is at work:
> The loving relationship between them. The infinite love flowing between them. The dance itself.”
> Fr. Richard Rohr



The God of the Gaps is the idea that saying "God did it" is a sufficient explanation for phenomena that we don't yet understand.  The gaps get smaller and smaller as we learn something.  I know that the gaps are still  enormous and there may be things that we never get the chance to understand.  

It's important to note that when a gap gets replaced by knowledge it has never gone back to being a gap again.


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Even though I am still a believer, my journey "away" from the traditional stuff was a hard journey..... It was a struggle. You tell yourself, I must be crazy.... how could I, a single person, be right.... and so many wrong. I kept thinking.... that solid ground would be discovered, just dig deeper. Anything I could say would not explain the degree of struggle. I wanted to be wrong. So,,,  I assume you guys did not just wake up athiest one day.... I assume it to was a struggle, a period in your life that you don't want to repeat



I think I remember it being fun.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 30, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Even though I am still a believer, my journey "away" from the traditional stuff was a hard journey..... It was a struggle. You tell yourself, I must be crazy.... how could I, a single person, be right.... and so many wrong. I kept thinking.... that solid ground would be discovered, just dig deeper. Anything I could say would not explain the degree of struggle. I wanted to be wrong. So,,,  I assume you guys did not just wake up athiest one day.... I assume it to was a struggle, a period in your life that you don't want to repeat


Hmmmm maybe that's why I have the attitude/thought process that there isn't anything another human could say that could "talk me into" going back.
It would take God himself or some serious preponderance of solid evidence to even consider it.


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## Day trip (Apr 30, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Just a comment -
> 
> I cant speak for everybody though I know this to be true for most all of us..... we didn't simply "outgrow" religion like an old t-shirt or just lost interest.
> Lots and lots of thought, research etc went into it. As you have noticed most all of us come from a religious background. Many of our family and friends are still Christians/religious.  In some cases we have hurt them, worry them, not to mention the thought of a Heaven can be a quite comforting thing.
> It wasn't necessarily an easy decision to get to where we are now.




Right!  I hope I can be clear.  Sorry this is going to be so long but this is my take on it all.  Organized religion (the one room school house) no longer satisfies.  We did what we were supposed to do, said what we were supposed to say and at the end of the day, it all feels fake and has no relevance in our lives.  We’ve outgrow it.  That’s was my problem with the Church.  I believe that I’ve felt your pains, your fears.  It take an amazingly strong person to finally stand up and say, “I cant do this anymore” and walk away in front of all your peers and loved ones who either cannot or refuse to see what you see. 

But Catholicism is like the movie The Karate Kid.  Have you seen it?  We learn: wax the car, paint the fence, sand the floor etc. all in the form of the sacraments.  Protocol that must be performed with no real explanation.  In the movie, The student goes along with the program because he thinks that after all the work he will learn karate, paying his dues to please the teacher.  Sound familiar?, trying to be good enough to please God?  After a while it makes no sense and he gets so frustrated that he says, “I’m done with this” and walks out.  

Now the master reveals the truth behind all of the protocol and procedure.  Now and only now does it all make sense and the student is amazed.  

Imagine if the teacher had told the student that he was working on karate from the beginning.  The student would bring all of his preconceived ideas about karate and ruin the training.  It wouldn’t work.  This is essentially the Catholic Churches program.  You must drink the pablum before being able to handle the meat.  In my opinion, they have failed at Confirmation where they are supposed to reveal the truth before we get totally frustrated and walk away.  They prepare us as children with protocol and procedure but then keep on teaching wax the car,etc. and hope you just get it. 

I think that today too many post reformation churches (Catholic and Protestant) believe that “wax the car, paint the fence and sand the floor” is what religion is all about.   They adore protocol and procedure.  They make vague claims that all of a sudden, magically gives you the golden ticket.  Its more pagan idolatry than anything else.  Pagan idolatry of a false image of God.  At the same time, in general the Catholic Church is too busy teaching the kindergarteners to reveal the truth to the seniors in the one room classroom.  More interested in numbers than individuals.  

It’s unfortunate, organized religion has failed us but at some point we must take responsibility for ourselves.  Sure, We can just walk away. But, are we strong enough to seek out and learn the meaning behind the protocol and procedure?  Are you curious?  If you were strong enough to say, “Enough!”  then you are strong enough to work the rest out yourself if you choose to.  
No one can ever prove to you beyond all doubts that God exists.  That’s not faith.  But at least then you’ll know where they are coming from.    


(Obviously this is my opinion from my Catholic background)


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## Day trip (May 1, 2018)

PS-  I’m not even suggesting you go back to church or organized religion  Walt.  I read your last comment after writing the one above and shuddered because it could have been misconstrued as propaganda.  Just my opinion about the church and that I actually do think it has value.


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## Spotlite (May 1, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I cant speak for everybody though I know this to be true for most all of us..... we didn't simply "outgrow" religion like an old t-shirt or just lost interest.



I would agree, and even in Christianity there’s a lot of Christians that have issues with “organized religion”. 

Often refer to as a social club, where it’s gotten away from “preaching the Gospel” and their intent differs from “soul saving” or “winning the lost”

Alot of people will join an “organization” for the name on the church sign regardless of what’s being taught there simply for the social status that comes with it, instead attending with those of like faith.


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## WaltL1 (May 1, 2018)

Day trip said:


> PS-  I’m not even suggesting you go back to church or organized religion  Walt.  I read your last comment after writing the one above and shuddered because it could have been misconstrued as propaganda.  Just my opinion about the church and that I actually do think it has value.


Nope didn't take it as propaganda. And please, don't concern yourself with stuff like that. We cant have open and honest conversations if everybody is trying to tip toe around stuff. Short of blatant personal insults I'm ok with everybody saying anything.


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## ambush80 (May 1, 2018)

Day trip said:


> PS-  I’m not even suggesting you go back to church or organized religion  Walt.  I read your last comment after writing the one above and shuddered because it could have been misconstrued as propaganda.  Just my opinion about the church and that I actually do think it has value.





WaltL1 said:


> Nope didn't take it as propaganda. And please, don't concern yourself with stuff like that. We cant have open and honest conversations if everybody is trying to tip toe around stuff. Short of blatant personal insults I'm ok with everybody saying anything.




What Walt said.

I see the benefits of a church-like community organization and one of my concerns is that secular humanism doesn't seem to have something that provides the same positive functions.  I looked into it and found this:

https://sundayassemblyatlanta.org/

I don't like groups, but sometimes I wish I knew different people to talk about things that cross my mind.  I suppose I do that here in GON but this site is a bit homogeneous. I have friends and neighbors and people I play tennis with but we don't seem to get into very deep philosophical discussions.  I do that with my sister and mother sometimes, though.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 1, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I don't like groups, but sometimes I wish I knew different people to talk about things that cross my mind.  I suppose I do that here in GON but this site is a bit homogeneous. I have friends and neighbors and people I play tennis with but we don't seem to get into very deep philosophical discussions.  I do that with my sister and mother sometimes, though.


I purposely refrain from deep discussion, even minor politics, in person. My discussions like this are wholly limited to the internet. No sense in inviting divisiveness


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## Day trip (May 1, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> I purposely refrain from deep discussion, even minor politics, in person. My discussions like this are wholly limited to the internet. No sense in inviting divisiveness



I’m the same way.  My mouth runs faster than my mind and it’s hard to erase or edit something you’ve said.


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## ambush80 (May 1, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> I purposely refrain from deep discussion, even minor politics, in person. My discussions like this are wholly limited to the internet. No sense in inviting divisiveness



I like it like this and in person.  This is easier, but there are a couple of people that I consider good friends that I can have heated debates with and though we disagree we still remain friends.


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## oldfella1962 (May 1, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> It depends on what advancements we make technologically.  I only disbelieve in a "spiritual" realm because there's no evidence for one.  There's so much about matter and time and space and consciousness that we don't understand.  If evidence for it comes in we won't have to guess or speculate or use feelings about the spiritual realm anymore.
> 
> Playing Jesus' advocate, I understand the appeal to authority. It seems to me that the mistake is contributing agency where there's no real good evidence for it.



I think there are so many "ghost hunter" shows on TV now that anything remotely supernatural is taken with a grain of salt.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 1, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> When Trip asked for a brief history of ourselves I don't think he meant that brief


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## ambush80 (May 1, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> I think there are so many "ghost hunter" shows on TV now that anything remotely supernatural is taken with a grain of salt.



As well they should be.  Sunlight is the best disinfectant.


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## oldfella1962 (May 1, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> We talk about "The God of the Gaps" often, but I realize that the gaps are big enough that god could be lurking in there somewhere.  I would be really disappointed if he cared about many of the things that religion says he does.



I would be god's biggest cheerleader if just once he would break a window and pull a baby out of a hot car. It's about that time of year here in Georgia, so he'll have plenty of opportunities coming up - but I won't hold my breath over it happening. 

Bonus points if after saving the baby he sends a bolt of lightning zig-zagging through the Walmart to "smite" the worthless parents who left the kid in the hot car.


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## ambush80 (May 1, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> I would be god's biggest cheerleader if just once he would break a window and pull a baby out of a hot car. It's about that time of year here in Georgia, so he'll have plenty of opportunities coming up - but I won't hold my breath over it happening.
> 
> Bonus points if after saving the baby he sends a bolt of lightning zig-zagging through the Walmart to "smite" the worthless parents who left the kid in the hot car.



I would be intrigued by a bonafide miracle as well.  The problem is that a miracle is loosely defined by believers.  Someone might say "I was walking by the car and I just had a feeling to look inside" and believers will call it a miracle.  



Did anyone see a miracle?


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## SemperFiDawg (May 1, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Hi I'm Walt and I'm a recovering Roman Catholic



I know a ton of Roman Catholics that are vehemently anti religion/A/As.  No so many protestants.  I've listened to a lot of their stories.   Witnessed first hand a Catholic Priest deny absolution to a dear dying friend because he had divorced 20 years younger and remarried.  There's as many grievances against the Church, any Church, as there are Church goers.  But for my ex catholic friends the sentiment runs deeper and stronger and it's not even close.  

That's my experience.  

To that I will say this.  When you become a Christian it's not a Church that you come to, or a doctrine, but a person; Jesus Christ.  Anyone who will tell you different is lost.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 1, 2018)

660griz said:


> Just an odd request. You are on GON, in the AAA forum. It wouldn't take a whole lot of reading to find out where folks stand.
> Why has it got to be or? Maybe both.
> I do like to hunt, and shoot, and fish, and ride ATVs and scuba dive, and hike, and camp, and play volleyball, tennis, softball, basketball, football (not soccer), and long walks on the beach. Oh, and I like puppies. Gonna start playing Pickle ball. Looks fun. Lately, all I have time for is work, either at the office or at home.
> 
> ...



I've read your replies for years now, and I think you set the lower end of the spectrum way too high.  Don't you?


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## SemperFiDawg (May 1, 2018)

Day trip said:


> It seems virtually all of the people in here have outgrown organized religion.  We are all obviously interested in relationships otherwise we wouldn’t be here.  That “God of Gaps” (never heard that before),  this is where he lives.  The stigma of religious terms may turn you away but this is the essence of the Trinity.
> 
> “The energy in the universe is not in the planets or in the protons or neutrons, but in the relationship between them. Not in the particles but in the space between them. Not in the cells of organisms but in the way the cells feed and give feedback to one another. Not in any precise definition of the three persons of the Trinity as much as in the relationship between the Three! This is where all the power for infinite renewal is at work:
> The loving relationship between them. The infinite love flowing between them. The dance itself.”
> Fr. Richard Rohr



DUUUUUDE.  Saw that and thought you had come up with it yourself........ until I saw the acknowledgement.   I was 
ready to , but then


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## bullethead (May 1, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I've read your replies for years now, and I think you set the lower end of the spectrum way too high.  Don't you?



"SFD" was already in use ,so,....


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## ambush80 (May 1, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> DUUUUUDE.  Saw that and thought you had come up with it yourself........ until I saw the acknowledgement.   I was
> ready to , but then




Are you saying that before you knew who said it that you thought it was provocative but when you saw who said it it became irrelevant?  

That doesn't sound right.  Truth is truth no matter who says it.


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## WaltL1 (May 1, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I know a ton of Roman Catholics that are vehemently anti religion/A/As.  No so many protestants.  I've listened to a lot of their stories.   Witnessed first hand a Catholic Priest deny absolution to a dear dying friend because he had divorced 20 years younger and remarried.  There's as many grievances against the Church, any Church, as there are Church goers.  But for my ex catholic friends the sentiment runs deeper and stronger and it's not even close.
> 
> That's my experience.
> 
> To that I will say this.  When you become a Christian it's not a Church that you come to, or a doctrine, but a person; Jesus Christ.  Anyone who will tell you different is lost.





> he had divorced 20 years younger and remarried.


Thems the rules.
Heres another example -
The woman I married was Baptist. The only way I could have a Catholic wedding in a church by a priest was for her to renounce being Baptist, take classes and become a Catholic.
I wouldn't let her do it. Got married at a nice resort with a nondenominational preacher or whatever they are called.
My entire side of the family (all Catholic) was devastated.
Thems the rules.


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## 660griz (May 1, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I've read your replies for years now, and I think you set the lower end of the spectrum way too high.  Don't you?



Ah...there he is. Jesus himself.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 2, 2018)

bullethead said:


> "SFD" was already in use ,so,....



   Good one


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## SemperFiDawg (May 2, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Thems the rules.
> Heres another example -
> The woman I married was Baptist. The only way I could have a Catholic wedding in a church by a priest was for her to renounce being Baptist, take classes and become a Catholic.
> I wouldn't let her do it. Got married at a nice resort with a nondenominational preacher or whatever they are called.
> ...



The priest told my dying friend that he would have to divorce his current wife and if they continued to live together, and it would have to be strictly plutonic.  Never forget my friends reply, as I was still in shock over what the priest said, He said, “Well that’s out, what else you got?”  Died 6 days later.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 2, 2018)

660griz said:


> Ah...there he is. Jesus himself.



No Man I’m a believer.  It’s you guys who worship the created and not the creator.  Git it rite now.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 2, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Thems the rules.
> Heres another example -
> The woman I married was Baptist. The only way I could have a Catholic wedding in a church by a priest was for her to renounce being Baptist, take classes and become a Catholic.
> I wouldn't let her do it. Got married at a nice resort with a nondenominational preacher or whatever they are called.
> ...



Good for you.


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## oldfella1962 (May 2, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The priest told my dying friend that he would have to divorce his current wife and if they continued to live together, and it would have to be strictly plutonic.  Never forget my friends reply, as I was still in shock over what the priest said, He said, “Well that’s out, what else you got?”  Died 6 days later.



Plutonic? How much for a one-way ticket to Pluto in case I need some "space" away from my wife for a while? 

Actually Jackie Gleason had this idea on "The Honeymooners" when he said "one of these days Alice! Bang, zoom! Right to the moon!"


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## SemperFiDawg (May 2, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Are you saying that before you knew who said it that you thought it was provocative but when you saw who said it it became irrelevant?
> 
> That doesn't sound right.  Truth is truth no matter who says it.



No.  When I first saw it I thought, now this guy is gonna add a new dimension just by the feel of the quote.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 2, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> Plutonic? How much for a one-way ticket to Pluto in case I need some "space" away from my wife for a while?
> 
> Actually Jackie Gleason had this idea on "The Honeymooners" when he said "one of these days Alice! Bang, zoom! Right to the moon!"



Sorry. Platonic.  Obviously no spell check here.


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