# Another WMA access rant- access blocked to thousands of acres of Chestatee



## ripplerider

My nephew and I tried to hunt the Tollgate section on Chestatee Saturday morning only to find a private gate blocking the lower access along Town Creek and a "No Private Access" sign. I have been hunting this area for 30 yrs. or more and never found the road blocked.The small  lot on Forest Service land where we park to hunt  is the southern end of the Logan's Turnpike trail which starts out in Tesnatee Gap on Richard Russell Scenic Hwy. 

   We could still access this country via Tesnatee Gap but getting any game out would be a nightmare. Tesnatee is roughly 3300' high and the trail out is very steep. It's rough enough to get one out downhill in that country. Getting to where I like to hunt would mean side-hilling a long, long way through ivy thickets and rock cliffs. Bringing game back out that way would be nearly impossible.

    I spoke with a Forest Service supervisor about this situation who said it's a done deal. Even though the public has been accessing this tract for over 50 yrs. this one landowner has the right to close the road. I think thats a crying shame.


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## tree cutter 08

I know where your talking about. We cut some trees for the guy last year and said he was going to have it closed. Sounds like he did.


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## NE GA Pappy

I hate it for you, but if he owns the land, more power to him.  I wouldn't want people accessing my land without permission night and day either


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## jbogg

Hey Ripple!  I have parked at Tesnatee gap and  hunted off the AT west of Cowrock MTN.  The WMA side of the trail is super steep.  I have spent most of my time on the NF north of the AT.  I have not had to pack anything out yet due to being on injured reserve most of this fall, but when that day comes it will be a gut check.


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## jbogg

Also, the pic in my avatar was taken while camping at Rock Top Spring along the AT.  Somewhere in the valley behind me is the Logon's Turnpike trail.


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## ripplerider

NE GA Pappy said:


> I hate it for you, but if he owns the land, more power to him.  I wouldn't want people accessing my land without permission night and day either



Then you and I dont think alike. A short section of road that the Forest Service had recently graveled passed through his land. There was no place to camp; I've never seen any evidence of partying in the parking lot. I dont think it's right to block access to thousands of acres of land that our tax dollars pay for because you have title to a few acres the road passes through. Theres a lot of history in that valley. The Logan Turnpike was the old wagon road through the mtns. Travellers used to cut a log and chain it to their wagon for a brake while descending. The log would be their payment for use of the road. Then the land was bought by the government with our tax dollars. I'm off to Blue Ridge WMA.


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## JustUs4All

All you have to do is get the taxpayer's dollars to purchase the road too.


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## herb mcclure

Ripplerider I want to say, I agree with you 100% about the old Logan Turnpike being gated; on private land in White county. Maybe this should be taken up with White county officials; as it is on private land. Us outdoor enthusiast need to let this be known about.

I have  driven across Tesnatee  Gap in days gone-by, using the old wagon road you are talking about, before the Richard Russell Hwy. was even built. Those old memories of days gone by; are still very vivid, thank God. 

Good hunting on the Blue Ridge WMA, which reminds me to tell all; Duncan Dobie will have a book signing Dec. 3rd, 1-5 for his Arthur Woody's book; in Sautee, GA at the Glen House.
herb mcclure


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## twincedargap

NE GA Pappy said:


> I hate it for you, but if he owns the land, more power to him.  I wouldn't want people accessing my land without permission night and day either


I agree. It sucks as a hunter, but as a property owner I wouldn't want people on my property either.


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## Duff

Man, I hate to hear that.


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## NE GA Pappy

ripplerider said:


> Then you and I dont think alike. A short section of road that the Forest Service had recently graveled passed through his land. There was no place to camp; I've never seen any evidence of partying in the parking lot. I dont think it's right to block access to thousands of acres of land that our tax dollars pay for because you have title to a few acres the road passes through. Theres a lot of history in that valley. The Logan Turnpike was the old wagon road through the mtns. Travellers used to cut a log and chain it to their wagon for a brake while descending. The log would be their payment for use of the road. Then the land was bought by the government with our tax dollars. I'm off to Blue Ridge WMA.




then you are one of the many moochers that think that just because they want to do something, they should get to.  If you want to cross that property, go talk to the old man, and offer to pay him X dollars for access, or buy the property and open it up for the world to use.  Until it is your land, and your option to let people cross...

Suck it up, buttercup.


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## ddd-shooter

I've got mixed emotions about this. But my gut feeling is to be on the side of public use. 
It's MY land behind the other man's gate also. Let's not forget that.  
The forest service cannot 'land lock' a private landowner, and I think what's good for the goose is good for the gander. For all intents and purposes, that man has landlocked the public from using our land. 
Far too often, historical easements get shut down in the name of environmentalist mentalities that want to keep humans out and make everything wilderness. 
Personally, I think we have too many roadless areas due to this mentality and I think the forest service should be more proactive in keeping and gaining easement to OUR land.


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## NE GA Pappy

ddd-shooter said:


> The forest service cannot 'land lock' a private landowner, and I think what's good for the goose is good for the gander. For all intents and purposes, that man has landlocked the public from using our land.



He hasn't land locked anything.  The OP stated 2 other ways to get to the land he wants to hunt. He just doesn't want to work that hard to hunt it.

The law says you can't surround a piece of property and deny access.  It doesn't say you have to let them cross your property, take on the liability of someone getting hurt, and clean up the trash behind someone, just so they can have a nice easy access to the public land to hunt.

Like I said earlier,  If he wants to use the access point, go pay the man to use it, or go buy the property and use it the way he sees fit.


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## NE GA Pappy

It seems to me, some folks have just lost all there common sense.  Herb is wanting the county commissioners to make a private land owner allow the public use of his land.  Presumably without any restitution.    Ripple thinks that he should be able to trespass just because he did in the past.  I would bet good money if either of them owned the "few acres" they wouldn't want the public traveling thru their land at all hours of the night and day, making noise, scattering trash, and being a nuisance.

It seems everyone wants to beat the landowner over the head with the "government stick" to get what they want.  Not that they have any rights to it, or are being denied anything except easy access to public land.  

My Lord, and we wonder why the general population lines up for the democrat ticket when they are promised free cheese.


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## jbogg

NE GA Pappy said:


> He hasn't land locked anything.  The OP stated 2 other ways to get to the land he wants to hunt. He just doesn't want to work that hard to hunt it.
> 
> The law says you can't surround a piece of property and deny access.  It doesn't say you have to let them cross your property, take on the liability of someone getting hurt, and clean up the trash behind someone, just so they can have a nice easy access to the public land to hunt.
> 
> Like I said earlier,  If he wants to use the access point, go pay the man to use it, or go buy the property and use it the way he sees fit.



If the road was used for decades by the public without permission from or objection by the owner then there is possibly a claim for adverse possession which could allow the road to remain open. So, Mr. Herbs recomendation to go to the county is not unreasonable.  You have taken an access issue and tried to make an argument about freeloading.  Apples and oranges.


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## Joe Brandon

Yall need to chill out and go hunt. Wow. Seeing way to much ugliness on here lately. We all have differences, some of them maybe very passionate oppisite opinions. That being said we are all on this forum because we are fellow sportsmen. Now get out there and have a good time boys!!!!!


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## ddd-shooter

Yes. I'm a total freeloader. I'm even using my govt issue internet device to type this up. Sarcasm. 

My issue is simply easement. If it's been used in the past as a maintained road, why not continue the easement? Why does the govt not purchase an easement if it's officially never been done? Why is the forest service quick to allow road closure and never make any new ones? (I know the answer, but the point remains) 
I never stated he was land locking the area. I said for all intents and purposes he was, and he is. 
Why all the hate for those who hunt public land? Did the OP mention trash everywhere and poachers galore? I believe he stated the opposite. Also, ga law releases landowners of liability when someone is on their property and is injured hunting or fishing.


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## Milkman

Purchase or long term lease of the land that restricts access would be a good option IMO. 
The land owner probably has a price/plan in mind if he/she were approached.  Land boundaries, ownership, etc. is public record and is easily accessed through the county Qpublic site.


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## Unicoidawg

jbogg said:


> If the road was used for decades by the public without permission from or objection by the owner then there is possibly a claim for adverse possession which could allow the road to remain open. So, Mr. Herbs recomendation to go to the county is not unreasonable.  You have taken an access issue and tried to make an argument about freeloading.  Apples and oranges.



This^^^^ that road has been used for well over 60yrs by the public. Also people speaking about well just use the other side have no clue as to what kind of land this is. Your not just gonna pull around the other road and ease in, this is a couple of miles around and it is straight up and down. The Feds should have set up a easement into the property years ago.


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## Milkman

Unicoidawg said:


> The Feds should have set up a easement into the property years ago.



I suspect the landowner fully agrees and may be willing to negotiate a deal.


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## jbogg

I'm no attorney, but I did deal with a lot of ingress/egress issues while building homes around lake Lanier.  Adverse possession is probably not appropriate in this case since the only use of the private property was for ingress/egress.  If private property is used for a long enough period of time without permission from or objection by the owner then the user may have prescriptive rights, or in this case a prescriptive easement.  When this access is enjoyed for a certain period of time by the general public as seems to be the case in this scenario then there is likely to be "implied dedication".  This would need to be ruled on by a judge, but based on the description of the use it sure seems to fit the bill.


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## NE GA Pappy

Unicoidawg said:


> This^^^^ that road has been used for well over 60yrs by the public. Also people speaking about well just use the other side have no clue as to what kind of land this is. Your not just gonna pull around the other road and ease in, this is a couple of miles around and it is straight up and down. The Feds should have set up a easement into the property years ago.



All my family is from that area, and I have walked up and down more hills there than many can even imagine.  I know what the land is like, and I know that in some places you might drive 20 miles to circle back within 800 yards of where you are now.

None of that changes the fact that the man owns the property, and if he doesn't want the crossing it, they have no right to cross.  If there had been an easement, then the feds would not have allowed him to close the road.  I imagine also, if it were county maintained, the comissioners know about and approved the closing.

Easy solution.  Lease the property, or buy the property, or go find another spot to hunt.


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## NE GA Pappy

ddd-shooter said:


> M Also, ga law releases landowners of liability when someone is on their property and is injured hunting or fishing.



If he is hunting or fishing on this man's property, then that is a totally different issue.  That would be poaching, or trespassing, or possibly both.

At the very least, hunting without permission.

The man is wanting to cross the property to hunt, not hunt the property, at least that is what I read.  And I also read that his main beef is that if he has to go in another way, it is harder to get a deer out.    My Pappy always told me the best place to deer hunt up there was uphill.  That way you could drag them downhill to the truck.


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## livinoutdoors

Just imagine you let kids in your neighbor cut through your yard to get to the park behind your house. Then one day you decide you dont want that to happen for what ever reason. Then instead of thankin you for the free use of your property for all those years the parents decide to use the power of goverment to force you to keep the path open. Hmmmmm. I hunt public land 99% of the time and wish there was easier places to access things sometimes, but not at the expense of property rights.


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## NE GA Pappy

livinoutdoors said:


> Just imagine you let kids in your neighbor cut through your yard to get to the park behind your house. Then one day you decide you dont want that to happen for what ever reason. Then instead of thankin you for the free use of your property for all those years the parents decide to use the power of goverment to force you to keep the path open. Hmmmmm. I hunt public land 99% of the time and wish there was easier places to access things sometimes, but not at the expense of property rights.




whoop, there it is


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## Timberman

There is a thing called historical access. Traditional and historical access to landlocked land will uphold in a court of law. I have exercised that option to access timber in the past. Unfortunately in this case the state would have to bring the threat.


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## Buckman18

I'm gonna shoot from the hip and guess this clown recently acquired this property and is either from Florida or Metro Atlanta?

Does anyone know?


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## NE GA Pappy

Timberman said:


> There is a thing called historical access. Traditional and historical access to landlocked land will uphold in a court of law. I have exercised that option to access timber in the past. Unfortunately in this case the state would have to bring the threat.



I googled both terms and came up with nothing. Can you supply a link showing traditional and historical access rights?


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## Panther25

Timberman said:


> There is a thing called historical access. Traditional and historical access to landlocked land will uphold in a court of law. I have exercised that option to access timber in the past. Unfortunately in this case the state would have to bring the threat.



I think this is referring to a prescriptive easement.

http://realestate.findlaw.com/land-use-laws/prescriptive-easements.html


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## jbogg

NE GA Pappy said:


> whoop, there it is



Hardly the same.  This landowner purchased a piece of property with a road going through it that the public had enjoyed the use of for over half a century.  The purchaser could safely assume that the public might wish to continue this prescriptive right of access.


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## NE GA Pappy

Panther25 said:


> I think this is referring to a prescriptive easement.
> 
> http://realestate.findlaw.com/land-use-laws/prescriptive-easements.html



There must be a demonstration of continuous and uninterrupted use throughout the statute of limitations period prescribed by state law. If the use is too infrequent for a reasonable landowner to bother protesting, the continuity requirement will probably not be satisfied.



Probably be hard to prove continuous use of a place that wasn't used except during deer season, I would think.  Also, it said it must be used against the owners wishes.  I would think that would be hard to prove also.


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## NE GA Pappy

jbogg said:


> The purchaser could safely assume that the public might wish to continue this prescriptive right of access.



Who says there was ever a prescriptive right?  Where the requirements met?  Was it a continuous and uninterrupted use of the property?

The thing I see is that, just like another poster in here that was p o'd because a warden wouldn't open a gate to allow him to drive in to collect his deer, somebody has a wrinkle in his shorts because hunting a spot isn't as easy as he wants it to be.

Just because he enjoyed the access in the past, doesn't mean he can access it now.


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## JustUs4All

jbogg said:


> Hardly the same.  This landowner purchased a piece of property with a road going through it that the public had enjoyed the use of for over half a century.  The purchaser could safely assume that the public might wish to continue this prescriptive right of access.




If your statement of a recent purchase is correct, the prescriptive right would hinge on whether the prior owner had given permission for the prior use.  If he did there is no adverse possession and therefore no prescriptive easement.  If he did not then the new owner would need to ditch across the road he purchased and get ready to fight for the property rights he should have acquired.  With enough time he might get prescriptive rights to his own land.


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## ripplerider

NE GA Pappy said:


> There must be a demonstration of continuous and uninterrupted use throughout the statute of limitations period prescribed by state law. If the use is too infrequent for a reasonable landowner to bother protesting, the continuity requirement will probably not be satisfied.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably be hard to prove continuous use of a place that wasn't used except during deer season, I would think.  Also, it said it must be used against the owners wishes.  I would think that would be hard to prove also.



There is a native trout stream running through the valley and a Forest Service maintained trail. Back when the tornadoes came through the F.S. hired crews to cut the trees out of the trail with cross-cut saws and axes since its in a Wilderness area. Its not just deer hunters who will suffer for this. Anglers and hikers use the area. I used to take my kids hiking in there all year round.

  And by the way, my names not Billy.


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## Fire Eater

Does the U.S. Forest Service have an _"easement"_ to this road? Those of you concerned could inquire. Block of NF land over here is accesible only from a private road but my call to USFS revealed an easement over it for me to access it.


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## NE GA Pappy

ripplerider said:


> There is a native trout stream running through the valley and a Forest Service maintained trail. Back when the tornadoes came through the F.S. hired crews to cut the trees out of the trail with cross-cut saws and axes since its in a Wilderness area. Its not just deer hunters who will suffer for this. Anglers and hikers use the area. I used to take my kids hiking in there all year round.
> 
> And by the way, my names not Billy.




If there is a FS trial, then you have access. If there isn't, maybe you don't. The only reason you have your shorts in a knot is because you can't get to a spot to hunt as easily as you want to.  Now you want to punish a landowner because he bought a piece of property and won't let you cross it.  

As before, either lease access across it from the owner, or buy the owner out and let all of  the US cross your land.  

Oh, and BTW, you might want to hire Basham.   Being a Billy, you will know him personally.


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## ripplerider

For those of you who dont know, NE GA Pappy calling me Billy is a reference to a series of threads on the Around the campfire section of this forum. Recent thread titles have included "Useless Billy said there were only 14 shoplifting days till Christmas", "Useless Billy taught that armadiller a lesson", "Useless Billy went drankin at the neighbors house and left nekkid" etc. etc. I looked at his post history awhile back and found that he had been laughing about this situation on one of these threads. Hence my telling him my names not Billy. This meets my definition of backstabbing. He also called me a "moocher"for wanting to use a Forest Service maintained road to access Forest Service owned land.

  I doubt very seriously that this man has ever laid eyes on this beautiful, very steep, extremely rugged area of Chestatee. Look it up on one of the on-line topo map sites. I use Mytopo. Imagine trying to bring a deer, bear, or hog out of there uphill. You know, I'm just going to cut this off right here. If I wanted to have conversations like this I'd still be married.


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## NE GA Pappy

ripplerider said:


> For those of you who dont know, NE GA Pappy calling me Billy is a reference to a series of threads on the Around the campfire section of this forum. Recent thread titles have included "Useless Billy said there were only 14 shoplifting days till Christmas", "Useless Billy taught that armadiller a lesson", "Useless Billy went drankin at the neighbors house and left nekkid" etc. etc. I looked at his post history awhile back and found that he had been laughing about this situation on one of these threads. Hence my telling him my names not Billy. This meets my definition of backstabbing. He also called me a "moocher"for wanting to use a Forest Service maintained road to access Forest Service owned land.
> 
> I doubt very seriously that this man has ever laid eyes on this beautiful, very steep, extremely rugged area of Chestatee. Look it up on one of the on-line topo map sites. I use Mytopo. Imagine trying to bring a deer, bear, or hog out of there uphill. You know, I'm just going to cut this off right here. If I wanted to have conversations like this I'd still be married.



Well, you would be wrong. I have been all over that area. I know what that terrain is like.  I also know if it were a FS road, he couldn't block it. So quit telling half truths and be honest.  Yes, I told those others I was posting in this thread, but the fact remain. Your main beef is that you can't easily access property that I help pay for also.  

Your title implies that no one can access THOUSANDS of acres of land because one small land owner bought a piece of property and won't let you cross it.  That just isn't true. Just as it isn't true that the FS road is blocked by him.

You seem to have trouble telling the truth.


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## NE GA Pappy

ripplerider said:


> It's real easy on the internet isnt it? Not so easy in real life.



What?  getting your panties in a wad because someone is tired of people abusing his property rights, or pointing it out to someone?

The facts are.

1.  You still have access to anywhere you want to go on that property.

2.  The man owns the land and can let anyone cross it, or not.

3.  You are butt hurt that you have to go another way in, and hunting ain't as easy as you want it to be.

4.  Now you are ticked at me for pointing out the facts.

5.  The simple solution to the issue is for you to talk to the property owner, pay for access or buy the land and let the entire population of Atlanta cross it free of charge.


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## ripplerider

The facts are: you called me a moocher, laughed at the situation and called me Billy on another part of this forum, basically called me a liar then said some of the members here needed crayons, coloring books, play doh and a safe place to play after which you deleted that post while still bragging about it on the Billy thread. Post #844 on the "Useless Billy got Hipnitized by a Rogue Santa" (sic) on the Around the Campfire forum. Thats getting pretty personal. Have a good day.


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## JustUs4All

Enough.  Please address the issue and not the person.


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## Killer Kyle

Although I don't know which or if any persons are at fault, and I do not know whether the public should be granted this easement or not, I can without doubt say that one needing look any further than the GON homepage to see that this sort of thing is not an isolated incident, and should be reviewed by the state. Even if Ripple is incorrect, which he may be, we should not dismiss the possibility that he could be correct, and a governmental process should be coenced in order to hear a final ruling.  As it is, none of us know whether the landowner is in the right or in the wrong. The USFS will have to be the deciding factor, and it's not worth us squabbling over until a process has been put in place. For reference:


www.gon.com/news/private-gate-was-cutting-off-zahnd-wma-access

Has anyone here actually spoken to anyone or any office to get this thing looked at? And please for the love of God, lets all clean up the behavior on this thread. This was and is one of the friendliest subforums for both regular users and users passing by. Let's keep it that way.


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## greg_n_clayton

The family owns property that has a USFS road that accesses USFS lands. There are 2 gates that stay open. One on private, the other belongs to the Gman. Ours is only locked when nobody will be around for a few days. The Gman has a lock in our chain for their access should they desire through it. It seems you all are seeing what has been going on around here for a long time !! The blocking and gating roads regularly !! The guy is doing the Gman a favor blocking the road and you will not get them to budge !! Sorry guys !! I bet I could show yall 50 gates/berms blocking miles and miles of roads, that have been put in place in the last 5-6 years !!


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## gobbleinwoods

greg_n_clayton said:


> The family owns property that has a USFS road that accesses USFS lands. There are 2 gates that stay open. One on private, the other belongs to the Gman. Ours is only locked when nobody will be around for a few days. The Gman has a lock in our chain for their access should they desire through it. It seems you all are seeing what has been going on around here for a long time !! The blocking and gating roads regularly !! The guy is doing the Gman a favor blocking the road and you will not get them to budge !! Sorry guys !! I bet I could show yall 50 gates/berms blocking miles and miles of roads, that have been put in place in the last 5-6 years !!



Bam there it is.   I have run into several of these new gates and have tried to find another route into publicly owned land.   It is not always easy.   My wish is that the bear find these people's land and tear up some thing that has special meaning to them.


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## ripplerider

If you will read my original post you will see that I NEVER said that it was a Forest Service road, only that they maintained it and the public had been using it for a very long time. I'm not a lawyer and I dont pretend to know the ins-and-outs of easement law. I think Greg hit the nail on the head with his post. I think the Forest Service is relieved to not have to take care of this little road anymore and theyre not worried about us little peons not getting to hunt that area anymore. Its a Wilderness area so theres no chance of any timber sales going on in there. Yes, you can still come in from the top but good luck getting one out before it spoils on any of the earlier hunts. I had to submerge a 6-point in a branch to keep it fresh on a mid-November hunt back when you could still bring them out the bottom.

  I'm sorry I reacted the way I did. This place is really special to me though it's not really any better hunting than other areas on Chestatee. It was a favorite haunt of some friends who mentored me when I was first learning to hunt the mountains. My nephew grew up hearing tales of hunts I and my hunting pals from White County went on and I was really looking forward to showing him the area. The new gate was a shock to me and I posted about it as soon as I got home expecting other mountain hunters to be as dismayed as I was. I never meant for this to blow up like it did and I  apologize for my part of it. 

 I'm beginning to believe that the Forest Service is no friend of hunters. Greg if I understood your post youre saying that the F.S. chose to lock your gate even when you didnt, right?


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## Duff

ripplerider said:


> I'm beginning to believe that the Forest Service is no friend of hunters. Greg if I understood your post youre saying that the F.S. chose to lock your gate even when you didnt, right?



Now you're seeing the light.


It has been many years since I used that road, but I hate to see it close for the ones that did use it.


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## tree cutter 08

I will agree. There is one spot in particular, not gated but the Hassel and confrontation that comes with hunting that spot takes the fun out of it. I just have quit hunting it. You have to park close to a few houses, on nf and they can't stand it. Of course one of them is a move in and not sure of the other. You know, when you buy a place with public land around it, you better be willing to accept it for what it is or don't buy it. We passed on a beautiful place that borderd nf land. We really want it but after lots of thoughts, I just didn't want to deal with folks parked at the end of the driveway in front of the house. I'm pretty sure if we bought it and got together with the other land owners we could have had a gate put up and would have stuck, but I'm not going to do this blocking of access for public. The above land mentioned in this thread was bought with the intention of closing it off to start with. He told me he was going to close the road to keep people out. Maybe he had the legal power to do so. Me, I wouldn't have bought the land to start with because it had a road going through it that was considered public road for years.


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## ripplerider

Did he explain why he was going to close it? Is he against hunting? Do you think it would do any good to approach him about crossing the land with written permission? Theres not really anywhere to park except the road to the Pinnacle, Piney Mtn. etc. and thats quite a haul. Did you ever hunt Tollgate? Sorry for all the questions.


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## greg_n_clayton

ripplerider said:


> If you will read my original post you will see that I NEVER said that it was a Forest Service road, only that they maintained it and the public had been using it for a very long time. I'm not a lawyer and I dont pretend to know the ins-and-outs of easement law. I think Greg hit the nail on the head with his post. I think the Forest Service is relieved to not have to take care of this little road anymore and theyre not worried about us little peons not getting to hunt that area anymore. Its a Wilderness area so theres no chance of any timber sales going on in there. Yes, you can still come in from the top but good luck getting one out before it spoils on any of the earlier hunts. I had to submerge a 6-point in a branch to keep it fresh on a mid-November hunt back when you could still bring them out the bottom.
> 
> I'm sorry I reacted the way I did. This place is really special to me though it's not really any better hunting than other areas on Chestatee. It was a favorite haunt of some friends who mentored me when I was first learning to hunt the mountains. My nephew grew up hearing tales of hunts I and my hunting pals from White County went on and I was really looking forward to showing him the area. The new gate was a shock to me and I posted about it as soon as I got home expecting other mountain hunters to be as dismayed as I was. I never meant for this to blow up like it did and I  apologize for my part of it.
> 
> I'm beginning to believe that the Forest Service is no friend of hunters. Greg if I understood your post youre saying that the F.S. chose to lock your gate even when you didnt, right?


No sir. Their lock is there so they gain access iffin our gate is locked. Their gate, at their property line remains open.....so far !!


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## tree cutter 08

I think he hunts but not sure how big of hunter. Go by introduce yourself and see what happens. He's a nice guy, use to go to church with him years ago. I couldn't really understand myself why  he closed it but I see why to. Coming in that way is definitely better than coming in through the other end or through white oak. Think he's building a house back there also.


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## NE GA Pappy

tree cutter 08 said:


> Think he's building a house back there also.



another reason for a locked gate, and no public access

thieves are everywhere, why invite them in to your place


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## The mtn man

I've been in that access a bunch of times, it's right near my grand parents, we had issues years ago with people telling us we couldn't go in there, that was 20 years ago.


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## Killer Kyle

Has anybody even bothered to consult the "Hiking Trails of Chattahoochee-Oconee National Forests" booklet available for purchase and produced by the very USFS itself? Well guess what? I did. And guess what? It is described in detail there. Guess what else? The USFS gives us explicit directions to that very trail and that very trailhead. It never even mentions directions to access from the top? Anybody out there care to take a stab at answering that one? While you are at it, go ahead and tell me why it also is in The Highroad Guide to the Georgia Mountains produced by the GA Conservancy. Just curious.


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## Killer Kyle

Well, well, well....Aint this a gem?! 

www.fs.usda.gov/detail/conf/home/?cid=STELPRD3841734

And this one:
www.fs.usda.gov/detailfull/conf/home/?cid=STELPRD3805160&width=full

And this little gem too:
www.whitecountychamber.org/list/member/logan-turnpike-trail-cleveland-2893

Evidently the county government thinks it is OK to hike there. They even list it on their website as an attraction. Why is the county directing people there if it is blocked by private property?Fancy, ain't it? Sounds like we got ourselves a battle mounting, ain't we?


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## NE GA Pappy

Killer Kyle said:


> Well, well, well....Ain't this a gem?
> 
> www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsintern...000&ttype=search&pname=Chattahoochee - Search



I guess so.  What is it?


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## Killer Kyle

My link to the USFS page didn't work, so here it is:

www.fs.usda.gov/detail/conf/home/?cid=STELPRD3841734


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## bfriendly

So this one hasn't ended yet........I am curious to see how this one pans out. I can see both sides of the argument here. But being in real Estate, I know there is a thing about easements that gets fuzzy...........An easement can develop simply by people creating it. Traverse enough on it, it becomes visible, then obvious and "possibly"an unrecorded easement now exists.
 Without knowing all the facts, I am thinking  its possible someone bought the land "Thinking" they would close this easement. Yet, a judge might just think differently. I like the idea of going to a judge to see what can be done, or if anything was done in the past.

Someone should go to the Tax Assessor's office and look at the plat map..........it should tell you alot.

BTW-just because you buy a chunk of land does not give you the right to close an easement in use if it exists........


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## livinoutdoors

CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, why doesnt somebody just contact the land owner and see whats goin on? This whole thing might could be figured out with a couple of friendly well spoken ( not me) outdoorsmen!


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## bfriendly

BTW-not to get off topic, but Allatoona is also dealing with Closed gates...........If they were not cutting timber a few weeks back, you would not have been able to drive "Through" a landowners property as the gates would be closed. "Reasonable" access being denied, even though the access was there for many many years.

Now, If I could go via Boat, this would be an ideal situation. But you are not allowed to have Firearms on the CORPS property.................What to do


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## Duff

Very interesting. Good stuff Kyle


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## Killer Kyle

I don't know who the landowner is, and I didn't look on the White Co tax assessor's page like I normally would because last time I checked the page, you couldn't search a property owner by way of selecting the parcel on a map, and I don't know the address to the property. In the majority of counties you can search by parcel map but I'm guessing maybe white counties gets too convoluted or something. I really don't know why. But I did some digging today, and some communication, and I did find out some information. When I get home tonight, I will post the E-mail correspondence I had earlier today. I did find out that the USFS is aware of the issue, and it is presently "under review" at the legal Dept of the forest supervisors office. I was not informed whether or not there was a legal or agreed upon easement, but was made aware that the land owner informed the USFS he will no longer be allowing access by means of his property. I was informed that he also had the backing of the local Representative, so I imagine that this will resolve in his favor. Be it so, it his right, despite public objection, but resulting dissent is also warranted I believe. If access is granted for a century and a half, and then ripped away, I can understand some sore feelings, bus his wishes must be respected. I was informed that the process of resolution has gone unattended in the wake of more immediate matters (the wildfires), and was encouraged to contact the forest supervisor Becky Jewitt (sp?) because the contact I spoke with is also a supporter of continued access to the trail and also is eager to hear the outcome. 
I did see on the map where the USFS could fairly easily create an alternate approach trail that circumnavigates the property boundaries, and I can present the idea, but we all well know that would cause a reallocation of funds, and plainly stated, that won't happen. Maybe if the public could generate enough interest, we could at least show that it would be important to us.


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## livinoutdoors

Well, if things dont work out with the land owner might be some people that would volunteer time and labor to cut that new trail if the feds cant/wont pay for it.


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## ripplerider

I would like to go by and discuss this matter with the landowner but I dont really know how to go about it as I apparently would be trespassing as it stands right now if I went past the gate to his home. I'll be home for the next week or so caring for my son who just had a serious surgery Friday but when he gets better I'll ride up there and see if I can figure something out.


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## livinoutdoors

WEll i hope your son feels better soon, n hope for the best with the gate deal. Ya never know till ya try, good luck!


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## Duff

I talked to the guy that surveyed the property. I can get the owners name if needed but I don't think it will help. He was planning to close it when he bought the property, from my understanding. So, Im sure he researched the access trail before hand. 

I don't hunt the mtns very often anymore, but I hate to see it closed for the ones that do, but you can't fault the owner. It is his land. 

Several tracks on that road back up the gov't land if I'm not mistaken. Maybe an easement could be purchased from another track?? Or access gained anyway.

How in the world would you access it now? From RR highway? I went in there once from Boggs Creek, but that was many moons ago when the BC road went much deeper in and I didn't have a bum foot. Did the tornado damage that side as much as it did on the BC side?


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## j_seph

Whatever happened to the good ole days? We would find this road blocked, be sore about it, stomp our foot. Then we would go to the landowner, stick a hand out and introduce ourselves with a firm handshake. Ask them is there anyway possible I can get access for myself. Is there any work around your place I could help you with to thank you for your generosity. Amazing sometimes if we man up, swallow our pride, show a little southern hospitality and kindness what it will get us. Possibly the landowner is seeing everyone as being bad folks and just needs to see that even though we wear camo, enjoy hunting we would still like to be buddies and good neighbors to help one another out. 

May take me a ride out this weekend myself and talk to this landowner. Hunted Chestatee some but was not aware of this area. Thanks


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## ripplerider

You can access it from R.R. highway to a certain extent but good luck trying to get your game out that way. Its possible to reach the western side of the bowl by coming in from Boggs Creek but once you drop off onto  the Town Creek side  you're dealing with the same ferocious uphill slope to get any game out. Plus I'm thinking the two rds. that would bring you the (relatively) closest are permanently closed. Maybe someone else can give some info on this, I dont hunt over there, but I've been told theyre closed. You can reach the Eastern side from White Oak Gap rd. but thats on Chattahoochee WMA and the 2 areas are never open on the same dates. The problem is, most of the places I love to hunt most are half-way up the side of the mtns forming this valley. Anyone whos ever brought out game for far side-hilling around a big steep mtn knows its nearly impossible to do for miles. I know if I personally killed one in there I would have to bring it down to the trail then hump it up a very steep and long stretch to Tesnatee Gap, which is at roughly 3300' elevation. It was tough enough to get one out down to the F.S. parking lot. Anyone who'd like to get the "big picture" of this area should park at the top of Hogpen Gap, walk the A.T. to the top of Wildcat mtn (maybe 3-4 hundred yards) turn left following the Whitley Gap spur trail and look off the overlooks at one of several rock faces. You can see the whole valley. Its one of my favorite views in the mtns. This would be on your left coming up from Helen.


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## Killer Kyle

Haha! That is probably one of my two favorite views of the mtns. I go up to the big bald on wildcat mtn, the one you're talking about all the time. Especially in the summer. I like to watch the sun set there in the summer, especially on days with broken clouds. One of the most beautiful sunsets a man will ever lay eyes on. I took an old girlfriend up there years ago to watch the sun set and for a first kiss (success!). There are also wild blueberries growing all over the bald and I make trips there in the summer specifically to pick them. They even have those lowbush blueberry bushes that only grow up to maybe 2' tall and have blueberries hardly bigger than a BB. I took two friends up there this past summer to watch the sun set, and to try those little blueberries. They both were absolutely astounded at the flavor. They kept saying "Oh my God, oh my God...These are the most amazing blueberries I have ever eaten. That is a very special place to me. Spent many, many evenings there sitting on the rocks reading, and waiting for the sun to go down. Still one of my favorite things to do.

And I know what you're talking about regarding the climb out. Even packing out something small as a deer. It would take at rock bottom minimum two men to be able to pack the weight of even a deer out. It would be a grueling , agonizing afair.


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## oppthepop

For heaven's sake you boys better not go out west (Wyoming especially) and think you will be able to access much of "our" land - it's almost ALL land locked by private owners. Hunt where you can, when you can, and make the best of it, or buy your own place. Just sayin'


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## Fire Eater

Please keep us updated on this issue...if USFS is looking at it, there are legitimate questions about legality of access. The fact that three different official agencies list this as a trail is interesting.

In a worst case scenario, the state or feds could simply BUY the trail or access rights from this guy and everyone goes away happy. A good and proper use of Eminent Domain.


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## Redbow

I don't have a Dog in this fight but if a man doesn't want me  on his property and I can't get his permission to be there then I don't have any business on that land..A landowner should have the right to keep others off his land and close a road to do so if he so wishes IMO...I have always looked at that as the American way...


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## misterpink

ddd-shooter said:


> I've got mixed emotions about this. But my gut feeling is to be on the side of public use.
> It's MY land behind the other man's gate also. Let's not forget that.
> The forest service cannot 'land lock' a private landowner, and I think what's good for the goose is good for the gander. For all intents and purposes, that man has landlocked the public from using our land.
> Far too often, historical easements get shut down in the name of environmentalist mentalities that want to keep humans out and make everything wilderness.
> Personally, I think we have too many roadless areas due to this mentality and I think the forest service should be more proactive in keeping and gaining easement to OUR land.



My thoughts exactly.  Just because you want to and you used to be able to doesn't mean that you should be allowed to.  That man spent his money to buy that land.  He can do with it whatever he wants.  Don't like it?  Work harder and buy it from him.  Then you can do what ever you want with it.  'Merica!


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## ddd-shooter

Kyle, those are huckleberries you are referring to. (At least that's what we mountain folk call them)
Delicious summer treat!


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