# To end it ALL!!!



## ErikGibb (Sep 3, 2014)

I am a Christian and put my faith and hope in Jesus Christ, the son of GOD. For those who don't believe say, how do you know there is a "GOD". Before I was saved I could not describe it, but after being saved you know. But the thing I wont to say to the none believer is..... If you say to me prove there is a GOD, Then I would say to you, prove there's not one?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2014)

I'm a Fellow Christian but I don't address the issue that way. We have the mission to teach others about God. It's really not up to us to prove anything. God proves who he is to whom he wants. 
I would say there are more Christians  trying to prove there is a God than Atheist proving there isn't. 
Atheist don't have a Great Commission, we do. They don't have an agenda, we do. 
I don't really see proof as being as important as faith. If proof was available then faith wouldn't be needed.
The whole concept of Christianity is based on faith and not proof.
Truth not proof.


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## bullethead (Sep 3, 2014)

ErikGibb said:


> I am a Christian and put my faith and hope in Jesus Christ, the son of GOD. For those who don't believe say, how do you know there is a "GOD". Before I was saved I could not describe it, but after being saved you know. But the thing I wont to say to the none believer is..... If you say to me prove there is a GOD, Then I would say to you, prove there's not one?



Your God is in great company.
God, Bigfoot, Leprechauns, Unicorns, Jersey Devil, Boogie Man, Vampires, Where wolves, EVERY other God anyone ever thought about...etc,etc,etc. Every Single one of them just as real as the next using your line of thought.
Great Job.
Very Original.
You really ended it all.


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## ErikGibb (Sep 3, 2014)

bullethead, with those that you listed, do you have any proof that they don't exsist?  artfuldoger, you are right!!!


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## WaltL1 (Sep 3, 2014)

Erik, please please think about your question.
If something doesn't exist what possible evidence of it would there be to show that?
Try this - prove that a seven headed flying hippo that wears lipstick and drinks bourbon on the rocks doesn't exist. 
If you cant prove it doesn't exist then it does, right?

And your avatar is making the wait for the season to open again even worse.


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## bullethead (Sep 3, 2014)

ErikGibb said:


> bullethead, with those that you listed, do you have any proof that they don't exsist?  artfuldoger, you are right!!!



Yep.
You made the CLASSIC argument from Ignorance.
No evidence is all of the evidence I need.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because something hasn’t been proven to not exist, doesn’t therefore mean that it does. That’s a logical fallacy called false dichotomy.


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## Israel (Sep 4, 2014)

A man thinks, perhaps even thinks he thinks logically, looks around, and comes to the conclusion that all is at best a happy accident, or a bad result. Or, just is. He may even use design of logic to say "there is no designer".
He is left where all is of chaos, all traced back to mindless, thoughtless chaos (foolishly perhaps, even believing he can grasp what chaos means) rarely considering that the very order he embraces of thought to deny the orderly intent (read "purpose") of thought must as well be rejected.
If thought/consciousness is of chaos, this exalted reason is soon shown to be consistent in this one thing, no data can be trusted. (he might even be "honest" enough to say "there's no such thing as "trust" or _honesty_...why then am I even speaking?)
If input is ultimately thoughtless, then all output is corrupt in chaos.
And so the question becomes, what then is compelling the chaos to seek to communicate itself?
A thing will always reveal its nature.
Or, as another said "there is nothing hidden, except to be revealed."
What claims chaos is _allowed_ by the most orderly expression of a Designer sublime...mercy.
For, if sense and reason have no immutable reality beyond (and above) any two men that either might, or both make their appeal for justification, by showing a congruence in it, then there is not only no need, but a very dishonest (read totally corrupt) impetus at work.
No, we are not at all talking about how smart one may be, how "reasonable" one may appear to themselves, in themselves, but of an inward break of "unity"...integrity, wholeness...that would cause a creature capable of thought to spew its contents of logic to "prove" there is no original (read prime) logic. 
Yes, if you don't come to like the nature of God, you will very much not like the nature of man you soon discover. Very much.
All men, everywhere, are assigned their experience of the messiah, the Christ, in the earth. Only his thoughts, and reason, are sufficient to lead to the resurrection, and everything else is being shown for what it is, thoughtless.


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## 660griz (Sep 4, 2014)

Israel said:


> A man thinks, perhaps even thinks he thinks logically, looks around, and comes to the conclusion that all is at best a happy accident, or a bad result. Or, just is. He may even use design of logic to say "there is no designer".
> He is left where all is of chaos, all traced back to mindless, thoughtless chaos


 He is left with not knowing. Reading with interest the new theories on what might have happened based on what we know. 





> foolishly perhaps, even believing he can grasp what this exalted reason is soon shown to be consistent in this one thing, no data can be trusted.


 The good thing is, not trusting any of the 'data' has absolutely no repercussions. 


> (he might even be "honest" enough to say "there's no such thing as "trust" or _honesty_...why then am I even speaking?)


 Load questions much?  There is trust...within me. 


> If input is ultimately thoughtless, then all output is corrupt in chaos.


 Hmmm. That is an entirely different theory but, why does the output have to be corrupt? 


> And so the question becomes, what then is compelling the chaos to seek to communicate itself?


 Nothing. Perhaps we seek to understand.



> What claims chaos is _allowed_ by the most orderly expression of a Designer sublime...mercy.
> For, if sense and reason have no immutable reality beyond (and above) any two men that either might, or both make their appeal for justification, by showing a congruence in it, then there is not only no need, but a very dishonest (read totally corrupt) impetus at work.
> No, we are not at all talking about how smart one may be, how "reasonable" one may appear to themselves, in themselves, but of an inward break of "unity"...integrity, wholeness...that would cause a creature capable of thought to spew its contents of logic to "prove" there is no original (read prime) logic.


 Very 'Shakespearean'. I didn't know what he was saying most of the time either.



> All men, everywhere, are assigned their experience of the messiah, the Christ, in the earth. Only his thoughts, and reason, are sufficient to lead to the resurrection, and everything else is being shown for what it is, thoughtless.



But, using God to explain floods, sneezes, plagues, fires, deaths, wars, lightning, droughts, slavery, recovery from illness, getting ill...etc., sheer genius. Got it.


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## StriperrHunterr (Sep 4, 2014)

Just wow.


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## Israel (Sep 4, 2014)

660griz said:


> There is trust...within me.


You have said it.



There is nothing hidden except to be revealed.


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## drippin' rock (Sep 5, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Erik, please please think about your question.
> If something doesn't exist what possible evidence of it would there be to show that?
> Try this - prove that a seven headed flying hippo that wears lipstick and *drinks bourbon on the rocks *doesn't exist.
> If you cant prove it doesn't exist then it does, right?
> ...



How ridiculous.  If it wears lipstick it obviously drinks cosmopolitans.


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## drippin' rock (Sep 5, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm a Fellow Christian but I don't address the issue that way. We have the mission to teach others about God. It's really not up to us to prove anything. God proves who he is to whom he wants.
> I would say there are more Christians  trying to prove there is a God than Atheist proving there isn't.
> Atheist don't have a Great Commission, we do. They don't have an agenda, we do. I don't really see proof as being as important as faith. If proof was available then faith wouldn't be needed.
> The whole concept of Christianity is based on faith and not proof.
> Truth not proof.



There's the beauty.


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## ambush80 (Sep 5, 2014)

Israel said:


> You have said it.
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing hidden except to be revealed.



What the heck does this mean in relation to what Griz said?  When I say those kinds of things I'm usually goofing around with my friends pretending to be cryptic.  Are you goofing around?  

Please say it like we're still in the jon boat fishing for crappies.


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## JB0704 (Sep 5, 2014)

drippin' rock said:


> How ridiculous.  If it wears lipstick it obviously drinks cosmopolitans.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 5, 2014)

drippin' rock said:


> How ridiculous.  If it wears lipstick it obviously drinks cosmopolitans.



See that's how one refutes an argument!


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## Israel (Sep 6, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> What the heck does this mean in relation to what Griz said?  When I say those kinds of things I'm usually goofing around with my friends pretending to be cryptic.  Are you goofing around?
> 
> Please say it like we're still in the jon boat fishing for crappies.


A man gives himself to the world in his own words.
Each seed for the planting, each planting for the sprouting, each sprouting for the fruit.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Sep 6, 2014)

ErikGibb said:


> I am a Christian and put my faith and hope in Jesus Christ, the son of GOD. For those who don't believe say, how do you know there is a "GOD". Before I was saved I could not describe it, but after being saved you know. But the thing I wont to say to the none believer is..... If you say to me prove there is a GOD, Then I would say to you, prove there's not one?



Oh Lord, another new one drunk on Jesus that's going to save all of us "heathens".  

We oughta start a list of these guys and how long they last.


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## Israel (Sep 6, 2014)

Yeah! But who's the "We" and who's the "they"?


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## ambush80 (Sep 6, 2014)

Israel said:


> A man gives himself to the world in his own words.
> Each seed for the planting, each planting for the sprouting, each sprouting for the fruit.



You're messing with me.


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## mickbear (Sep 7, 2014)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> Oh Lord, another new one drunk on Jesus that's going to save all of us "heathens".
> 
> We oughta start a list of these guys and how long they last.


I was thinking the very same thing


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 8, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> You're messing with me.



I wonder how good these sound in his head. I can't follow anything he types...


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## Israel (Sep 8, 2014)

consider words are like sperm, consider them the soul's equivalent of the body's compulsion at a certain point.
Consider that though we may spread many, few actually, in our lifetimes, find the "target".
Then consider what may be born...
The excited soul spews much, sometimes bearing in fruit what it later finds repugnant.
In this, we are all "in the same boat".
No, I'm not messing with you. There is only one Christ, in him alone is found trust, and faithfulness, and mercy.
Even, and especially so, to one like myself who has spoken in so much foolishness for so long, for the sheer pleasure of it.
You brothers help me see.


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## 660griz (Sep 8, 2014)

ErikGibb said:


> If you say to me prove there is a GOD, Then I would say to you, prove there's not one?



Here's some proof.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
 Then he is not omnipotent.
 Is he able, but not willing?
 Then he is malevolent.
 Is he both able and willing?
 Then whence cometh evil?
 Is he neither able nor willing?
 Then why call him God?”

Epicurus – Greek philosopher, BC 341-270


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## Israel (Sep 8, 2014)

The righteous perishes, and no man lays it to heart; and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil [to come].


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## 660griz (Sep 8, 2014)

Israel said:


> The righteous perishes, and no man lays it to heart; and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil [to come].



With a 'friend' like God, who needs evil?

 Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and possess the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.


 Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood.


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## Israel (Sep 8, 2014)

660griz said:


> With a 'friend' like God, who needs evil?
> 
> Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and possess the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.
> 
> ...


It is a rough place, isn't it? This world, I mean.
It seems so often to come down to your photo...but...which to be?
Jihadist with AK, or the others? I needn't ask you whose soul you'd prefer. (though we may not know "their" doings)
At least, I don't think so.
Do you say the Jihadist is the brutal remnant of a benighted people of "a" god? What then of those slaughtered, presumably Shia, or non-Suni, just as benighted, and getting their reward?
Will ridding the world of any "god" consideration result in what you believe to be a "pure and innocent" people? Is it the "god" consideration that causes the evil...and that, somehow, man is a good being if only separated from this "god" thing?
But, isn't there a flaw there? If the "god" thing is the source of the evil, but men are presumably good of themselves, how did the "god" thing ever take hold? If people are good of themselves, wouldn't they simply reject the lie of the "god" thing outright...seeing the evil?
So then...some are good...and presumably...some are not.
One could say "evolution" will take care of the god thing...man will progress past it, like vestigal gills? 

Man will progress to such enlightenment and self actualization (OK, I am embarrassed to use that) that "god" will be a laughable, then dim, then forgotten, concept? Then...man will truly be what man is _meant_ to be?
And, if you think I am loading the question as you'd previously stated, I am not. 
But because I don't know you, I will ask, isn't that a form of determinism? 
You may not subscribe to this at all, but I have in so many ways, on so many occasions heard what is not said in this regard..."man can be, and will only be, what he is _meant_ to be, when this god stuff is out of mind".
In other words...do we all carry around our own little unconfessed (usually) determinism...simply by believing "how things should be"? How they are "meant" to be?

I know you haven't said all conflict is always and only amongst, or caused by, those with some god profession.
But I am persuaded the conflicts are in men, being made clear outwardly. Regardless of whether they name a god or gods or not, or what name they assign him. 
I do believe the God of peace...manifest to us as one among those lying on the ground, beneath the barrel, beneath a god of sorts, (the one of its own power, bullets, and own will and way) not only will, but is having his way.
Killing the killers seems right, though, doesn't it?
So many seems to get past.
One has.


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## 660griz (Sep 8, 2014)

Israel said:


> It is a rough place, isn't it? This world, I mean.
> It seems so often to come down to your photo...but...which to be?


 Photos were in response to another poster but, I will repeat the quote in response to you.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Epicurus – Greek philosopher, BC 341-270


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## Israel (Sep 9, 2014)

We may think we know what good and evil are. And we are held to account of our meager understandings...but to come to a place where seeing "good" for me may work "evil" for someone else, and even vice verse leaves us either paralyzed, or needing to rely on another. 
In a closed system, your having that 45/70 may prevent someone else from having one.
In an open...not so much.
All systems are open. 
All systems, go.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 9, 2014)

660griz said:


> “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
> Then he is not omnipotent.
> Is he able, but not willing?
> Then he is malevolent.
> ...


His philosophy implodes in the first question. God has a good purpose for evil.

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."


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## 660griz (Sep 9, 2014)

Israel said:


> We may think we know what good and evil are.


 I thought you had a book for that. 


> In a closed system, your having that 45/70 may prevent someone else from having one.
> In an open...not so much.
> All systems are open.
> All systems, go.


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## 660griz (Sep 9, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> His philosophy implodes in the first question. God has a good purpose for evil.



No, Then he is malevolent. 
Able, but not willing to prevent. 3rd Line.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 9, 2014)

660griz said:


> No, Then he is malevolent.
> Able, but not willing to prevent. 3rd Line.


And the Bible clearly shows malevolence. He is benevolent to some and malevolent to some.

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."


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## 660griz (Sep 9, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> And the Bible clearly shows malevolence. He is benevolent to some and malevolent to some.
> 
> "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."



I agree. Evil.


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## ambush80 (Sep 9, 2014)

660griz said:


> I agree. Evil.



You're piece of clay.  How dare you question the potter.

Ain't my fault. I was was just thrown this way.  I know it.  Deep down in my soul I know it.  I'm gonna go out and make some REAL mayhem, like I was designed for.


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## Israel (Sep 9, 2014)

660griz said:


> I thought you had a book for that.



I don't know where you are in regard to the Bible, so I don't want to make assumptions.
And if, in time, we get to know one another, you may learn a little more of where I am. Not that "where" I am matters much at all, but that assumptions about one another may be dealt with, and our communication, perhaps, more fruitful, for both of us.
It appears you think I "have a book" that I follow, like a book of orders. I get that, it's easily seen, and often represented as such. But, if I can share one brief episode "in the book", and another in instruction, you may see why I seek, hope, endeavor to rely on Christ alone.
One episode is in 1 Kings chapter 20, verses 36-37.
Basically the prophet tells a man to strike him, hit him, wound him. The man refuses. Then the prophet tells the man "Because you didn't listen and strike me, a lion will kill you" (and a lion does)
He says to a second man "please strike me"...the man does...and the prophet goes on his way to fulfill his mission. 
Now, I don't think I need explain much, and even if you find the episode however you find it (in your opinion)...you may also find there's a place in scripture that speaks thus:
"Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm."
Do you see how a man may find himself needing more than a simple "instruction book"...at least on its face? 

Here's another thing in instruction:
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.
Followed immediately by:
Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.

One says "don't"...one, more or less "do".

Maybe, then, you can see a little where I am as far as "instruction book". Not in touting contradiction, but in my own need for understanding of where and when one thing, perhaps in any other circumstance may be not fitting, but in another, precisely what is being called for.

I claim no success in the "doing" of this at all. All I am is at best, aware. Made aware, I would have to say, especially after a life of seeking to do what I considered "good" in my own eyes, and being brought to see the shrapnel from it. 

This I cannot deny, someone knows me, and knows me deeply...far deeper than I know myself. And this one has, unseen except by the faith he has given me to see him, has also given me the assurance that his seeing is for my good, and never to harm me. He could "bust me out" so to speak, catch me off base a million times, and yet, he continues to show himself kind to me. 
Even when those things I am allowed to glimpse would have me calling down fire and thunder on "such a one".

Strange, huh? 
But, I tell you...wonderful to behold.
Heaven, to experience.


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## Israel (Sep 9, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> You're piece of clay.  How dare you question the potter.
> 
> Ain't my fault. I was was just thrown this way.  I know it.  Deep down in my soul I know it.  I'm gonna go out and make some REAL mayhem, like I was designed for.



Do you see? One can only choose mayhem in contradistinction...if you know what "mayhem" is in the situation, you know that the good would be, at least (and perhaps nothing more) than doing nothing.
You may well be on your way to understanding the great grace of being "dead" in Christ.

For we can do nothing against the truth, only for it.
For even if mayhem be "chosen" it can only be in the knowing that the good would be "not mayhem".

Let.
Let. 
Not "make". 
Let the peace of God rule your heart. 
Believe me or not, I know what it is to "get your licks in"...to know that soft spot just begging to be slammed once you see it.
Forbear, brother.
Be better than me, for Christ's sake.


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## ambush80 (Sep 9, 2014)

Israel said:


> I don't know where you are in regard to the Bible, so I don't want to make assumptions.
> And if, in time, we get to know one another, you may learn a little more of where I am. Not that "where" I am matters much at all, but that assumptions about one another may be dealt with, and our communication, perhaps, more fruitful, for both of us.
> It appears you think I "have a book" that I follow, like a book of orders. I get that, it's easily seen, and often represented as such. But, if I can share one brief episode "in the book", and another in instruction, you may see why I seek, hope, endeavor to rely on Christ alone.
> One episode is in 1 Kings chapter 20, verses 36-37.
> ...




I like the part where the daughters get the father drunk and rape him.  Now that takes some discernment to get the gist of.


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## ambush80 (Sep 9, 2014)

Israel said:


> Do you see? One can only choose mayhem in contradistinction...if you know what "mayhem" is in the situation, you know that the good would be, at least (and perhaps nothing more) than doing nothing.
> You may well be on your way to understanding the great grace of being "dead" in Christ.
> 
> For we can do nothing against the truth, only for it.
> ...



Let the mayhem come.  For the Glory.


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## Israel (Sep 10, 2014)

Or, you could pray for me.


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## Israel (Sep 10, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> I like the part where the daughters get the father drunk and rape him.  Now that takes some discernment to get the gist of.


It is an interesting place where all of "man's" warts are unhidden...and made plain to him.
Who are any of us "better" than?
It takes a strong hand to so secure us in comforts so that not only seeing, but making plain what we are before one another, is no longer with shame, but relief.
Sometimes murder may even be exposed as simply an emphatic way of saying in ones heart "I don't like them, I will change them"...in the extreme.
Sometimes murder is even exposed as nothing more than  "you'd better let _me_ help _you_ stop being _that way_" at its foundation.
Yes, I have been a murderer.


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## ambush80 (Sep 10, 2014)

Israel said:


> It is an interesting place where all of "man's" warts are unhidden...and made plain to him.
> Who are any of us "better" than?
> It takes a strong hand to so secure us in comforts so that not only seeing, but making plain what we are before one another, is no longer with shame, but relief.
> Sometimes murder may even be exposed as simply an emphatic way of saying in ones heart "I don't like them, I will change them"...in the extreme.
> ...




That's not REAL murder.


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## StriperAddict (Sep 10, 2014)

Israel said:


> I don't know where you are in regard to the Bible, so I don't want to make assumptions.
> And if, in time, we get to know one another, you may learn a little more of where I am. Not that "where" I am matters much at all, but that assumptions about one another may be dealt with, and our communication, perhaps, more fruitful, for both of us.
> It appears you think I "have a book" that I follow, like a book of orders. I get that, it's easily seen, and often represented as such. But, if I can share one brief episode "in the book", and another in instruction, you may see why I seek, hope, endeavor to rely on Christ alone.
> One episode is in 1 Kings chapter 20, verses 36-37.
> ...


 
Strange indeed, but what a breath of life, thank you brother


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## atlashunter (Sep 21, 2014)

ErikGibb said:


> I am a Christian and put my faith and hope in Jesus Christ, the son of GOD. For those who don't believe say, how do you know there is a "GOD". Before I was saved I could not describe it, but after being saved you know. But the thing I wont to say to the none believer is..... If you say to me prove there is a GOD, Then I would say to you, prove there's not one?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot


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