# Jesus is Lord, even in the Koran



## hobbs27 (Sep 14, 2014)

Pretty interesting.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 15, 2014)

What does the word "word" mean? It has meaning. Tradition denies it has meaning and makes it into a title.  In the beginning was the word. The creative word. God said [his word] let there be light, and there was light. And the word was with God, withheld until times reached fullfillment. OT saints believed by faith that God's word was as good as done, yet not always having come to pass yet. Example. Issac was said to be Abrahams firstborn son, yet we know it was Ishmael. Why is this? Because God had promised to give Abraham a son through his barren wife. By his word, he promised Abraham. Issac could say about Ishmael "before Ishmael, I am" because he was before Ishmael in word. You could also say that when times reached fullfillment, that the word came to life and dwelled among us. Issac, the promise was born. And we see in John that "and the word was God" which actually reads correctly as "god was the word". God is what he does. Like the phrase "you are what you eat". Eat healthy and you will likely be healthy. God is what he does... and he creates. Let there be light, and there was light. John chap 1 is making a picture comparrison of Jesus as the light. In the greek, it and he are the same.  John was setting the stage to compare Jesus to the light, [sun] how all things exist through the light, how not one thing has come into being without the light. Without the sun, nothing could have grown, lived, etc. Problem is that Translators have inserted Jesus as "him" before John intended. Vs 4 should have been it rather than him. It referring to light, play on word. Through it all things were made, without it nothing was made that has been made. In it was life and that life was the light of men. the light shines in darkness but darkness has not understood it.  There came a man sent from God his name John. He came as a witness to testify concerning light, so that through him, all men might believe. He himself was not the light, he came only as a witness concerning light. The light that gives life was coming into the word. Now we see John introduce Jesus as that life, that light, making a play on how everything comes through Jesus. He was in the world and though the word emerged [ correct greek word, not "was made". that is incorrect. The def of emerged is that it moves along something already in existence.]  through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which is his own, but his own did not receive him. Sure he was setting it up to refer to Jesus, but as an analogy, not literal. Read it with this mindset and the strangeness of everything goes away.    Ask yourself, if John here is telling us Jesus is God... do you really think he needed to clarify that he himself is not God????  vs 8 "He himself was not that light".  Then strangely vs 9 he is coming into the world.... vs 9 he was in the world... . And in vs 13, if he were telling us Jesus was God.. would he really need to tell us  that Jesus surpassed him [was greater]. No, What we have here is simple, John made a comparrison of Jesus to the light, he did not intend to make him the light literly... or the word. He meant a comparrison. Translators knowing whom he was referring to places Jesus as him rather than let John make his comparrison. It confused the intended meaning.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 15, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> What does the word "word" mean? It has meaning. Tradition denies it has meaning and makes it into a title.  In the beginning was the word. The creative word. God said [his word] let there be light, and there was light. And the word was with God, withheld until times reached fullfillment. OT saints believed by faith that God's word was as good as done, yet not always having come to pass yet. Example. Issac was said to be Abrahams firstborn son, yet we know it was Ishmael. Why is this? Because God had promised to give Abraham a son through his barren wife. By his word, he promised Abraham. Issac could say about Ishmael "before Ishmael, I am" because he was before Ishmael in word. You could also say that when times reached fullfillment, that the word came to life and dwelled among us. Issac, the promise was born. And we see in John that "and the word was God" which actually reads correctly as "god was the word". God is what he does. Like the phrase "you are what you eat". Eat healthy and you will likely be healthy. God is what he does... and he creates. Let there be light, and there was light. John chap 1 is making a picture comparrison of Jesus as the light. In the greek, it and he are the same.  John was setting the stage to compare Jesus to the light, [sun] how all things exist through the light, how not one thing has come into being without the light. Without the sun, nothing could have grown, lived, etc. Problem is that Translators have inserted Jesus as "him" before John intended. Vs 4 should have been it rather than him. It referring to light, play on word. Through it all things were made, without it nothing was made that has been made. In it was life and that life was the light of men. the light shines in darkness but darkness has not understood it.  There came a man sent from God his name John. He came as a witness to testify concerning light, so that through him, all men might believe. He himself was not the light, he came only as a witness concerning light. The light that gives life was coming into the word. Now we see John introduce Jesus as that life, that light, making a play on how everything comes through Jesus. He was in the world and though the word emerged [ correct greek word, not "was made". that is incorrect. The def of emerged is that it moves along something already in existence.]  through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which is his own, but his own did not receive him. Sure he was setting it up to refer to Jesus, but as an analogy, not literal. Read it with this mindset and the strangeness of everything goes away.    Ask yourself, if John here is telling us Jesus is God... do you really think he needed to clarify that he himself is not God????  vs 8 "He himself was not that light".  Then strangely vs 9 he is coming into the world.... vs 9 he was in the world... . And in vs 13, if he were telling us Jesus was God.. would he really need to tell us  that Jesus surpassed him [was greater]. No, What we have here is simple, John made a comparrison of Jesus to the light, he did not intend to make him the light literly... or the word. He meant a comparrison. Translators knowing whom he was referring to places Jesus as him rather than let John make his comparrison. It confused the intended meaning.



Remember the three men that visited Abraham by his tent, we were just discussing this, I believe it was two angels and Jesus...What did they come to tell Abraham?



1gr8bldr said:


> God had promised to give Abraham a son through his barren wife. By his word, he promised Abraham.



 Just a thought....


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 15, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Remember the three men that visited Abraham by his tent, we were just discussing this, I believe it was two angels and Jesus...What did they come to tell Abraham?
> 
> 
> 
> Just a thought....


Not sure your point, but I respect your view. Jesus was before John, before Abraham, etc. He was the word spoken of who would crush the serpent. OT saints trace their heritage back to the oldest patriarch and consider them the greatest. An argument arose about Abraham as the greatest. Jesus said before Abraham, I am. He put himself in front of the line of their esteemed greatest Abraham. [ just as Issac was before Ishmael, in word by God]


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## hobbs27 (Sep 16, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Not sure your point, but I respect your view. Jesus was before John, before Abraham, etc. He was the word spoken of who would crush the serpent. OT saints trace their heritage back to the oldest patriarch and consider them the greatest. An argument arose about Abraham as the greatest. Jesus said before Abraham, I am. He put himself in front of the line of their esteemed greatest Abraham. [ just as Issac was before Ishmael, in word by God]



Hey, I respect your view also...My point is The bible calls Jesus the Word...The Koran calls Jesus the Word...and you said God gave Abraham a promise of a son by Sarah through His Word.....Then I remember Jesus and the two angels coming to Abraham to announce Sarah was going to give him a Son---The Word  -- Jesus.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 16, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Hey, I respect your view also...My point is The bible calls Jesus the Word...The Koran calls Jesus the Word...and you said God gave Abraham a promise of a son by Sarah through His Word.....Then I remember Jesus and the two angels coming to Abraham to announce Sarah was going to give him a Son---The Word  -- Jesus.


Oh, I see your point now


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 22, 2014)

I would like to point out that lord and master are the same exact greek word in our NT. Our translators have decided which word they prefer, which has caused great confusion


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## hobbs27 (Sep 22, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> I would like to point out that lord and master are the same exact greek word in our NT. Our translators have decided which word they prefer, which has caused great confusion



Do you trust any of the translations? Keeping in mind that the greek was also translated.

Here's something else I found that I find interesting..knowing that this is non canonical.

Quran 3:4 And (make him) a messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah’s permission, and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah’s permission; and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses. Surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers. 


The First Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ Chapter 15
1. “And when the Lord Jesus was seven years of age, he was on a certain day with other boys his companions about the same age. 2. Who at play made clay into several shapes, namely, CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, oxen, birds, and other figures. 3. Each boasting of his work and endeavoring to exceed the rest. 4. Then the Lord Jesus said to the boys, I will command these figures which I have made to walk. 5. And immediately they moved, and when he commanded them to return, they returned. 6. He had also made the figures of birds and sparrows, which, when he commanded to fly, did fly, and when he commanded to stand still, did stand still; and if he gave them meat and drink, they did eat and drink. 7. When at length the boys went away and related these things to their parents, their fathers said to them, Take heed, children, for the future, of his company, for he is a sorcerer; shun and avoid him, and from now on never play with him.”


The Second Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ Chapter 1
1. “I, Thomas, an Israelite, judged it necessary to make known to our brethren among the Gentiles, the actions and miracles of Christ in his childhood, which our Lord and God Jesus Christ wrought after his birth in Bethlehem in our country, at which I myself was astonished; the beginning of which was as follows. 2. When the child Jesus was five years of age and there had been a shower of rain that was now over, Jesus was playing with other Hebrew boys by a running stream, and the waters ran over the banks and stood in little lakes; 3. But the water instantly became clear and useful again; they readily obeyed him after he touched them only by his word. 4. Then he took from the bank of the stream some soft clay and formed out of it twelve sparrows; and there were other boys playing with him. 5. But a certain Jew seeing the things which he was doing, namely, his forming clay into the figures of sparrows on the Sabbath day, went presently away and told his father Joseph, 6. Behold, your boy is playing by the river side, and has taken clay and formed it into twelve sparrows, and profanes the Sabbath. 7. Then Joseph came to the place where he was, and when he saw him, called to him, and said, Why do you that which is not lawful to do on the Sabbath day? 8. Then Jesus clapping together the palms of his hands, called to the sparrows, and said to them: Go, fly away; and while you live remember me. 9. So the sparrows fled away, making a noise. 10. The Jews seeing this, were astonished and went away and told their chief persons what a strange miracle they had seen wrought by Jesus.”


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 22, 2014)

When I read what the "Word" reveals about Jesus or Abraham it makes me question what the "Word" reveals about me.
When I read about what the "Word" reveals about Saul/Paul, it makes me question what the "Word" reveals about me. 
Meaning what is different about me pertaining to prophesy than to Jesus or Paul? 

OK back on topic:
I do see the "Word" as being God's prophesy/purpose of Jesus and thus Jesus being the "Word."
God knew his "Word" was Jesus or about Jesus. That's what makes Christianity  Christianity.
You can't separate God's Word from God. Jesus being a part of his Word can't be separated either. Jesus "is" the word. This doesn't make Jesus his Father.
It only makes Jesus the sum of his Father's "Word."


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 22, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Do you trust any of the translations? Keeping in mind that the greek was also translated.
> 
> Here's something else I found that I find interesting..knowing that this is non canonical.
> 
> ...


LOL, I don't trust any translation. Not even these. First off, The Koran, referring to Jesus Christ. Christ is not his last name. It would mean the Koran calls Jesus God's annointed. But then in this version, calls him God [highlighted in red]. But funny thing, many of the links I looked at do not include this highlighted in red. It should be easy enough to verify if we could find a greek version and see if Theos is actually there. My guess, it will not be.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 22, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> LOL, I don't trust any translation. Not even these. First off, The Koran, referring to Jesus Christ. Christ is not his last name. It would mean the Koran calls Jesus God's annointed. But then in this version, calls him God [highlighted in red]. But funny thing, many of the links I looked at do not include this highlighted in red. It should be easy enough to verify if we could find a greek version and see if Theos is actually there. My guess, it will not be.


Looked through many greek translations so far, and many translations.... and none have what I highlighted in red. It has been tampered with. The Koran refering to "Jesus Christ" was a dead give away. Here is a small portion of what I have looked through;
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/infancythomas.html


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## hobbs27 (Sep 23, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Looked through many greek translations so far, and many translations.... and none have what I highlighted in red. It has been tampered with. The Koran refering to "Jesus Christ" was a dead give away. Here is a small portion of what I have looked through;
> http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/infancythomas.html



This Is a parallel of the Koran and two non canonical books. " The first and second book of the infancy of Jesus Christ are not part of the Koran...I'm sorry, I should have explained that better in the start . 
 I was just trying to show the similarities of the story from koran to Christian books of a story about Christ bringing little birds to life as a child.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 23, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> This Is a parallel of the Koran and two non canonical books. " The first and second book of the infancy of Jesus Christ are not part of the Koran...I'm sorry, I should have explained that better in the start .
> I was just trying to show the similarities of the story from koran to Christian books of a story about Christ bringing little birds to life as a child.


Oh, LOL, I should have picked up on that.


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