# Do the unsaved REALLY go to a fiery furnace forever? No.



## BAR308

Most Christians believe that our Lord will take ALL people who fail to "get saved" for whatever reason.. will be tormented by their Creator for all of eternity. But is that what the Bible teaches? No. The "church" has misunderstood a few verses that Jesus spoke about eternal torments. From cover to cover of the Bible... God has given mankind the offer to choose life or death... not a fiery furnace that torments them forever. I will say that i believe there is a fiery furnace that will punish the wicked for their evils... but they will be consumed in the fire just as the Bible says... and they will be "no more" just as the Bible says.

This post is not to argue or debate back and forth. Its for the Elect who have ears to hear but yet have not studied out this doctrine and been delivered from a doctrine of demons.

Check out these verses:
Here’s what the Bible says, and precisely why I have argued that if one were to read the Bible without preexisting ideas of traditional eternal torments, one would not walk away believing in it. Here’s the list:

Psalm 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish”
If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe the ungodly perish at all– but live forever in fiery torments. You CANNOT be dead AND alive in torments.

Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”
If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe the wicked will be “consumed.” Instead, they believe the wicked and tortured and never consumed.

Psalm 69:28 says that the wicked are “blotted out of the book of the living.”
This continues the consistency of scripture which tells us the wicked die– not that they are eternally living in a conscious furnace.

Ps. 34:16, 21 “evil brings death to the wicked.”
Of course, if one believes in eternal torments, one doesn’t believe that evil brings death at all, but brings life– in a furnace. 

Psalm 92:7 “… shall be destroyed forever.”
If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe those who are lost are “destroyed” but again, that they live forever.

Prov. 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.”
To believe in eternal conscious torments means one believes they will not be snuffed out at all.

Dan. 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.”
This continues the theme of totally destroyed– there’s not a trace of the wicked. This is the opposite of eternal life in the furnace.

Isa. 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.”
Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“

This speaks to ceasing to exist– not eternal life in flames. In the traditional view it will not be “as if they had never been” because they’ll live eternally and still “be alive.”

Mal 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.”

Here God is quoted directly– the evildoers are destroyed like straw thrown into the fire, and nothing is left. This shows total annihilation (they no longer exist). To believe in eternal torments, one would have to argue that God was mistaken and that they aren’t destroyed in the fire at all– but live forever in the fire without being consumed, which is the exact opposite of what God claimed.

Eternal torments is NOT in the Old Testament. Instead, they believed that the wicked are destroyed– that they die and do not get resurrected to eternal life. This is the testimony of the whole of scripture. To believe in eternal conscious fiery furnace is to really be at odds with the terminology we see scripture use. These same claims of annihilation and destruction continue in the New Testament:

Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in eternal flames.”
Here Jesus himself teaches against eternal torments– saying that those who are lost experience the death of their soul (which is their life). If one believes in eternal conscious flames, they believe Jesus was wrong on this point, and that souls don’t die at all, but will live forever in flames.

John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish (die).”
Again, to believe in eternal flames, one must believe Jesus was wrong in John 3:16 and that people don’t “perish” at all, but live forever in eternal flames.

Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction (death)“
Jesus in his warnings continues with the repetitive testimony of scripture: the consequence of rejecting reconciliation with God is destruction– not everlasting life in torment.

Jesus on a variety of occasions uses the metaphor of fire that consumes not tortures: Matt. 7:19; 13:40; John 15:6

Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“
There’s that pesky word “destroyed” again. Those who believe in eternal flames don’t believe one is destroyed in eternal flames, but lives there forever. You cant be DEAD and ALIVE at the same time... If you believe this then please explain how a person can be dead or destroyed AND also alive in eternal flames...

2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …”
Getting repetitive yet? Seems like the Bible is getting pretty clear that the consequence of rejecting God is destruction, not eternal life in eternal flames.

1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person”
There’s that word again that doesn’t mean tortured in eternal flames, but just means what it says– destroyed.

2 Cor 2:15-16: “those that perish“
Again, if Paul meant eternal flames, he should have said it– seems like all Cristians always talk about eternal flames... and not death or destruction.

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“
Growing up we’re taught that the “wages of sin is eternal flames” but nope– it’s perishing, dying, being destroyed.. the opposite of eternal life in eternal flames.

Hebrews 10:39 “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”
Another version of the same term… destroyed. 

James 4:12 “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”
Seems like every biblical author wants us to understand to be “destroyed” is the natural consequence… there is NO writer in the Bible (accept for Jesus) to mention anything about eternal flames... maybe what Jesus spoke was in Parables... and not to be taken literally.

Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death…”
Those who believe in eternal conscious eternal flames don’t believe in the second death– they believe everyone is immortal, and that some will live forever in eternal flames. 

Rev 20:14 is clear that they die– they don’t live forever in eternal flames at all.

Look at this:
Jude 7
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example (to the wicked)  suffering the punishment of ETERNAL FIRE.

What was "eternal" in this passage? was the fire eternal OR the punishment? well, the punishment was eternal not the fire even tho it says "eternal fire"... Why? because sodom is NOT still burning today but yet the punishment (death or destruction) is eternal... So when Jesus DID mention eternal fire He was saying that the punishment would be eternal... the death or destruction was eternal not the fire itself. the wicked will be like sodom... destroyed... to cease to exist. dead. gone. but NOT burning forever...

Revelation 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.

What happens when their is a death? do people continue on living? No, they are DEAD. plain and simple. Whats the first death? when we die our normal death. The second death is when we die again and are consumed in the fire and destroyed for good. 

So for the Elect who have ears to hear... i hope you can see this. Its a great relief when God delivers us from false teachings and traditions of men... much peace!


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## Spotlite

Somehow you have been completely been misled.


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## hobbs27

Very Good study BAR308.

I agree with you


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Very Good study BAR308.
> 
> I would add John 3:16, to point out the options. Eternal life, or perish.



Do you really think Satan and his demons and all who would exalt themselves against an infinitly holy God will let them off so easily and passively? I know God is very compassionate and loving and forgiving and merciful.But to ignore His equally sovereign holy Lordship is totally one-sided.

I truly believe to get the full picture of God's love AND His wrath, one must examine thoroughly what really took place at the cross of Calvary.His wrath was poured out upon His Son in ways we cannot imagine with our little minds.Jesus bore that wrath in the place of the elect and in doing so He FOREVER excused the elect.But, there are those who are not excused.And His righteous judgement for that must be satisfied. 

I know word studies are good.And some individual verses will sometimes seemingly mislead.BUT, we must carefully examine God's collective attributes to understand His complete purposes.God is love, but God also HATES evil.


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## Artfuldodger

My response from another thread;
We also must consider how much of this is literal. Let's consider a lake of fire. What is a lake of fire? Perhaps the fire is eternal as is the maggots at the burning trash dump that would eat what the fire didn't consume. The bodies one could see that didn't make it to the flames. It would paint quite a picture to one who was familiar with a trash dump in days past. We had one such place in my hometown. It was eternal in my youth and eternal in my mind. There were farm animals in it that were being devoured by maggots. Fires got some of the rubble. 
If one wanted to paint a picture of an eternal, everlasting image of death, it was the the local trash dump of my youth.
The fire and worms were everlasting. The individual death of each wasn't. When one dies without knowing Jesus he is cast into such a place. He will surely perish and die. Knowing Jesus, one receives everlasting life or eternal life. This life is spiritual. Without, one receives the eternal punishment of separation from God in the form of death. 
If He!! were an actual physical place then one would need a physical body to endure this everlasting pain. Spirits don't burn. The dead know nothing. 
It has to be everlasting life or eternal death. 
I wonder if Jesus and his prophets needed a way to picture a place of eternal torment and everlasting death and knew that everyone like me had this image of the city dump as the best image. I knew that the hog's maggots never died even though the individual hog did. Soon another hog or horse would be thrown into the dump and consumed by the eternal never dying worms.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Do you really think Satan and his demons and all who would exalt themselves against an infinitly holy God will let them off so easily and passively? I know God is very compassionate and loving and forgiving and merciful.But to ignore His equally sovereign holy Lordship is totally one-sided.
> 
> I truly believe to get the full picture of God's love AND His wrath, one must examine thoroughly what really took place at the cross of Calvary.His wrath was poured out upon His Son in ways we cannot imagine with our little minds.Jesus bore that wrath in the place of the elect and in doing so He FOREVER excused the elect.But, there are those who are not excused.And His righteous judgement for that must be satisfied.
> 
> I know word studies are good.And some individual verses will sometimes seemingly mislead.BUT, we must carefully examine God's collective attributes to understand His complete purposes.God is love, but God also HATES evil.



I never once questioned God's authority to do with the unrighteous as He pleases. That's been the assumption, that because I don't believe in ECT that I don't believe a compassionate God could do that. I believed in ECT for most of my life and never doubted God's love for all, so that's a false assumption.

It is scripture, and prayer alone that led me away from ECT. I could easily sit in my home church and accept the preaching of ECT as true. I could just take the preachers word for it, but aren't we responsible for our own studies? Aren't we suppose to show ourselves approved?...If we tell folks involved in cults to study God's word and accept it over the doctrine of man..shouldn't we hold ourselves to those same standard s?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I never once questioned God's authority to do with the unrighteous as He pleases. That's been the assumption, that because I don't believe in ECT that I don't believe a compassionate God could do that. I believed in ECT for most of my life and never doubted God's love for all, so that's a false assumption.
> 
> It is scripture, and prayer alone that led me away from ECT. I could easily sit in my home church and accept the preaching of ECT as true. I could just take the preachers word for it, but aren't we responsible for our own studies? Aren't we suppose to show ourselves approved?...If we tell folks involved in cults to study God's word and accept it over the doctrine of man..shouldn't we hold ourselves to those same standard s?



Yes.We absolutely should.
All I'm saying is get the entire complete picture of His holiness and don't try to fit Him in your box and try to make Him into a "fits all" God.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> I never once questioned God's authority to do with the unrighteous as He pleases. That's been the assumption, that because I don't believe in ECT that I don't believe a compassionate God could do that. I believed in ECT for most of my life and never doubted God's love for all, so that's a false assumption.
> 
> It is scripture, and prayer alone that led me away from ECT. I could easily sit in my home church and accept the preaching of ECT as true. I could just take the preachers word for it, but aren't we responsible for our own studies? Aren't we suppose to show ourselves approved?...If we tell folks involved in cults to study God's word and accept it over the doctrine of man..shouldn't we hold ourselves to those same standard s?



I'm guessing the E and the T stand for "eternal torment".  What does the C stand for?


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> I'm guessing the E and the T stand for "eternal torment".  What does the C stand for?



Conscious.


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## swampstalker24

As a kid growing up in a southern baptist church, I always struggled with comprehending the idea of eternal suffering for those who did not believe.....  probably the only reason I decided to get "saved".......  it wasn't that I really wanted to devote myself to jesus, I just didn't want to burn in heII for ever and ever and ever......  I also feared separation from my christian family members in the afterlife...   fear being the key word...

Thats the idea though.... got to give the people something to fear in order to get them to obey the church and put another crisp dollar bill in the offering plate....

On the flip side, I always felt like the reward of heaven, the endless mansions of marble and streets of gold as our pastor put it, was like a bribe....  kinda like in the medieval ages when the church told the peasant "oh, this life is all about _suffering_ and _hardship_ and _doing as you are told_, but you will be rewarded for your devotion in the afterlife so it will be worth it....  no need to try to better your conditions or demand equal treatment within society, just accept it as gods will and live out your meager existence, and by the way, where is that tithe you owe us?"

I now think that if god really is loving and merciful, he would not require you to worship at his feet or else face the eternal flames.... that just seems a bit egotistical and malevolent IMO


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## 1gr8bldr

These type of discussions reveal alot... Because once someone tries to prove a point, they look for proof from the bible. Often, what they assumed is not there


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## formula1

*re:*

Just a thought here but wouldn't the spirit of a man be in eternal torment separated eternally from the Father of spirits?


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## welderguy

formula1 said:


> Just a thought here but wouldn't the spirit of a man be in eternal torment separated eternally from the Father of spirits?



Yes he would, and also everlasting darkness.(2 Pet.2:17)


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## hobbs27

formula1 said:


> Just a thought here but wouldn't the spirit of a man be in eternal torment separated eternally from the Father of spirits?



If a man's spirit has eternal life I would say so.

Many of us think the second death is the death of that spirit, perished, and consumed in the lake of fire.
 I base my opinion of this strongly on John 3:16 which shows a comparison of a believer obtaining eternal life vs the unbelievers perishing.


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## EverGreen1231

BAR308 said:


> Most Christians believe that our Lord will take ALL people who fail to "get saved" for whatever reason.. will be tormented by their Creator for all of eternity. But is that what the Bible teaches? No. The "church" has misunderstood a few verses that Jesus spoke about eternal torments. From cover to cover of the Bible... God has given mankind the offer to choose life or death... not a fiery furnace that torments them forever. I will say that i believe there is a fiery furnace that will punish the wicked for their evils... but they will be consumed in the fire just as the Bible says... and they will be "no more" just as the Bible says.
> 
> This post is not to argue or debate back and forth. Its for the Elect who have ears to hear but yet have not studied out this doctrine and been delivered from a doctrine of demons.
> 
> Check out these verses:
> Here’s what the Bible says, and precisely why I have argued that if one were to read the Bible without preexisting ideas of traditional eternal torments, one would not walk away believing in it. Here’s the list:
> 
> Psalm 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish”
> If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe the ungodly perish at all– but live forever in fiery torments. You CANNOT be dead AND alive in torments.
> 
> Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”
> If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe the wicked will be “consumed.” Instead, they believe the wicked and tortured and never consumed.
> 
> Psalm 69:28 says that the wicked are “blotted out of the book of the living.”
> This continues the consistency of scripture which tells us the wicked die– not that they are eternally living in a conscious furnace.
> 
> Ps. 34:16, 21 “evil brings death to the wicked.”
> Of course, if one believes in eternal torments, one doesn’t believe that evil brings death at all, but brings life– in a furnace.
> 
> Psalm 92:7 “… shall be destroyed forever.”
> If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe those who are lost are “destroyed” but again, that they live forever.
> 
> Prov. 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.”
> To believe in eternal conscious torments means one believes they will not be snuffed out at all.
> 
> Dan. 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.”
> This continues the theme of totally destroyed– there’s not a trace of the wicked. This is the opposite of eternal life in the furnace.
> 
> Isa. 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.”
> Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“
> 
> This speaks to ceasing to exist– not eternal life in flames. In the traditional view it will not be “as if they had never been” because they’ll live eternally and still “be alive.”
> 
> Mal 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.”
> 
> Here God is quoted directly– the evildoers are destroyed like straw thrown into the fire, and nothing is left. This shows total annihilation (they no longer exist). To believe in eternal torments, one would have to argue that God was mistaken and that they aren’t destroyed in the fire at all– but live forever in the fire without being consumed, which is the exact opposite of what God claimed.
> 
> Eternal torments is NOT in the Old Testament. Instead, they believed that the wicked are destroyed– that they die and do not get resurrected to eternal life. This is the testimony of the whole of scripture. To believe in eternal conscious fiery furnace is to really be at odds with the terminology we see scripture use. These same claims of annihilation and destruction continue in the New Testament:
> 
> Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in eternal flames.”
> Here Jesus himself teaches against eternal torments– saying that those who are lost experience the death of their soul (which is their life). If one believes in eternal conscious flames, they believe Jesus was wrong on this point, and that souls don’t die at all, but will live forever in flames.
> 
> John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish (die).”
> Again, to believe in eternal flames, one must believe Jesus was wrong in John 3:16 and that people don’t “perish” at all, but live forever in eternal flames.
> 
> Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction (death)“
> Jesus in his warnings continues with the repetitive testimony of scripture: the consequence of rejecting reconciliation with God is destruction– not everlasting life in torment.
> 
> Jesus on a variety of occasions uses the metaphor of fire that consumes not tortures: Matt. 7:19; 13:40; John 15:6
> 
> Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“
> There’s that pesky word “destroyed” again. Those who believe in eternal flames don’t believe one is destroyed in eternal flames, but lives there forever. You cant be DEAD and ALIVE at the same time... If you believe this then please explain how a person can be dead or destroyed AND also alive in eternal flames...
> 
> 2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …”
> Getting repetitive yet? Seems like the Bible is getting pretty clear that the consequence of rejecting God is destruction, not eternal life in eternal flames.
> 
> 1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person”
> There’s that word again that doesn’t mean tortured in eternal flames, but just means what it says– destroyed.
> 
> 2 Cor 2:15-16: “those that perish“
> Again, if Paul meant eternal flames, he should have said it– seems like all Cristians always talk about eternal flames... and not death or destruction.
> 
> Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“
> Growing up we’re taught that the “wages of sin is eternal flames” but nope– it’s perishing, dying, being destroyed.. the opposite of eternal life in eternal flames.
> 
> Hebrews 10:39 “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”
> Another version of the same term… destroyed.
> 
> James 4:12 “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”
> Seems like every biblical author wants us to understand to be “destroyed” is the natural consequence… there is NO writer in the Bible (accept for Jesus) to mention anything about eternal flames... maybe what Jesus spoke was in Parables... and not to be taken literally.
> 
> Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death…”
> Those who believe in eternal conscious eternal flames don’t believe in the second death– they believe everyone is immortal, and that some will live forever in eternal flames.
> 
> Rev 20:14 is clear that they die– they don’t live forever in eternal flames at all.
> 
> Look at this:
> Jude 7
> 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example (to the wicked)  suffering the punishment of ETERNAL FIRE.
> 
> What was "eternal" in this passage? was the fire eternal OR the punishment? well, the punishment was eternal not the fire even tho it says "eternal fire"... Why? because sodom is NOT still burning today but yet the punishment (death or destruction) is eternal... So when Jesus DID mention eternal fire He was saying that the punishment would be eternal... the death or destruction was eternal not the fire itself. the wicked will be like sodom... destroyed... to cease to exist. dead. gone. but NOT burning forever...
> 
> Revelation 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
> 
> What happens when their is a death? do people continue on living? No, they are DEAD. plain and simple. Whats the first death? when we die our normal death. The second death is when we die again and are consumed in the fire and destroyed for good.
> 
> So for the Elect who have ears to hear... i hope you can see this. Its a great relief when God delivers us from false teachings and traditions of men... much peace!



That's a lot of typing to come to the wrong conclusion. What is life? What is 'to live?'


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## apoint

Yep there is a heell as the bible says. You will be removed from god and torment will rule.


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## hobbs27

EverGreen1231 said:


> That's a lot of typing to come to the wrong conclusion. What is life? What is 'to live?'






apoint said:


> Yep there is a heell as the bible says. You will be removed from god and torment will rule.


 

And we are just to take your word on it, verses all the scripture posted in the op?

apoint.. The word he11 in the bible is never defined as a place of eternal torments. It's also translated from four different words. Sheol in he Hebrew, Hades in the Greek. Both Sheol and Hades are the same places defined as the grave also known as the old testament abode for the dead, both righteous and unrighteous. Inside Hades were different compartents. Abrahams bosom and Paradise being one.

 Gehenna is another word, which is a place and should never be translated into he11.

 Tartarus is the final word, it's used in Jude and was a holding place for fallen angels unto the day of judgment.

Not once in the bible is he11,, what we call he11.


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## groundhawg

Spotlite said:


> Somehow you have been completely been misled.



Yep.  You turn or burn.


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## gemcgrew

BAR308 said:


> This post is not to argue or debate back and forth. Its for the Elect who have ears to hear but yet have not studied out this doctrine and been delivered from a doctrine of demons.


How is it not "a doctrine of demons" when the  annihilationist claims the reprobate as an equal to Christ, in the matter of putting away sin?


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> How is it not "a doctrine of demons" when the  annihilationist claims the reprobate as an equal to Christ, in the matter of putting away sin?



When the reprobate dies the 2nd death, does he have within his power to grant himself everlasting life as Christ has by granting Christians everlasting life? If not then the reprobate isn't equal with Christ. 
The reprobate doesn't put away his sin and gain eternal life but his sins cause him to perish. Therefore he doesn't even come close to putting away sin. Burning away into everlasting death isn't overcoming sin. Living in mansions in Heaven is putting away sin.
Everlasting life is overcoming sin. Sin is death.


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## Artfuldodger

What became of the things cast into the eternal flames in the Valley of Hinnom? What happened to the previous living things cast into the Valley of Hinnom that didn't make it to the flames. What did the "worms that never die" do to these carcasses?
Eternal indeed!


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> When the reprobate dies the 2nd death, does he have within his power to grant himself everlasting life as Christ has by granting Christians everlasting life?


Did the reprobate 'have within his power" to die the second death?(a logically prior question)


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Did the reprobate 'have within his power" to die the second death?(a logically prior question)



No he did not have that power. The reprobate has no power. Surely he must die. Only the blood of Jesus can grant the power to live everlasting life. It takes special power to live forever. To die is inevitable. To die requires no power. That's in God's master plan.
To die isn't defeating sin. Sin causes death. We can only defeat death because Jesus did it first to defeat our sins. To die and not gain everlasting life hasn't defeated sin. The reprobate gains nothing by dying.
The whole purpose of defeating sin IS to gain everlasting life. It's not to defeat continuously being tortured. Again the separation from God is everlasting. So one could say the pain and torture is eternal but not constantly happening.


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## gordon 2

What makes saints different, from a moral and day to day perspective, from the not saved?

Do you think this could apply to the not saved?:

[The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.']

A saved soldier who tortures a prisoner of war is more righteous than a not saved individual who refuses the order?


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## BAR308

EverGreen1231 said:


> That's a lot of typing to come to the wrong conclusion. What is life? What is 'to live?'



Paul said... we are all mortals and only God is IMmortal..

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

notice he said DEATH is swallowed up in victory... not eternal torments. Only God cannot die.


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## BAR308

apoint said:


> Yep there is a heell as the bible says. You will be removed from god and torment will rule.



nobody said there is no heck. there is a heck. its the lake of fire..  the KJ is wrong where they plaster heck for hades, sheol, tartarus and the lake of fire. sheol and hades is the grave, pit, underworld, death... the lake of fire is heck. but what happens there??

Revelation 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH, even the lake of fire.

please explain how a soul can be dead as shown above... a 2nd death AND be alive in eternal concious torments at the same time? we cannot be DEAD and ALIVE at the same time...


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## BAR308

gemcgrew said:


> How is it not "a doctrine of demons" when the  annihilationist claims the reprobate as an equal to Christ, in the matter of putting away sin?



i have no idea what you are talking about.


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## BAR308

can anyone show me where the Bible says that ALL men will live forever? but thats what the churches teach. that we only die temporarily and then ALL are resurrected to live forever either in heck or heaven... but where is that in the Bible? its not there. only the Saints will receive eternal life. the others will be consumed away in the lake of fire (heck) after they have paid for their sins...


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## welderguy

BAR308 said:


> can anyone show me where the Bible says that ALL men will live forever? but thats what the churches teach. that we only die temporarily and then ALL are resurrected to live forever either in heck or heaven... but where is that in the Bible? its not there. only the Saints will receive eternal life. the others will be consumed away in the lake of fire (heck) after they have paid for their sins...



Mathew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal".


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Mathew 25:46
> "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal".



Death is everlasting punishment. When one is consumed in an eternal fire, it is everlasting.


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## Artfuldodger

BAR308 said:


> i have no idea what you are talking about.



What he is saying is the annihilationist claims that if the reprobate dies he has defeated sin. Since the reprobate can defeat sin, he is equal with Christ in this respect.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Death is everlasting punishment. When one is consumed in an eternal fire, it is everlasting.



Whether cosumed or not makes no difference because their torment will be forever.

Rev.14:11
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image,and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Sounds alot more to me than just a simple one time burning and dying and done deal.For ever and ever sounds like a very very long time with no rest day or night.


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## Doboy Dawg

*Hades*

Luke 16:22-26 KJV

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in Helle he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham far off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said Son remember that thou in thy lifetime received thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot, neither can they pass to us, that would come from hence.

So yes a loving God will send you to Helle if you do not repent and are Saved by the Shed Blood of Jesus Christ.  Jesus said I am the way and the life No man can come to the Father except by Me.

You can take one scripture or a hundred scriptures out of context and try to make them say what you want to, but you cannot change the inerrant Word of God.  Read the last two verses of Revelation friend.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Whether cosumed or not makes no difference because their torment will be forever.
> 
> Rev.14:11
> "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image,and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
> 
> Sounds alot more to me than just a simple one time burning and dying and done deal.For ever and ever sounds like a very very long time with no rest day or night.


 
 That is about Jerusalem and the destruction in 70 ad. Nothing to do with individuals fate.

 You may want to stop your discussion on this topic now unless you are willing to submit to the scriptures and accept what you have been taught is not biblical. It was very upsetting to me when I went through it.


----------



## hobbs27

Doboy Dawg said:


> Luke 16:22-26 KJV
> 
> 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in Helle he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham far off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said Son remember that thou in thy lifetime received thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot, neither can they pass to us, that would come from hence.
> 
> So yes a loving God will send you to Helle if you do not repent and are Saved by the Shed Blood of Jesus Christ.  Jesus said I am the way and the life No man can come to the Father except by Me.
> 
> You can take one scripture or a hundred scriptures out of context and try to make them say what you want to, but you cannot change the inerrant Word of God.  Read the last two verses of Revelation friend.




Absolutely people do that, but in many cases it's just a lack of study, such as the verses above. When we dig we find the word he11 in the parable above is Hades. Hades is the grave, it was an old covenant abode for all the dead. It's where Samuel arose from by the witch of endor. Also we find that both the righteous and unrighteous were in Hades, seperated by compartments, such as Abrahams bosom, or Paradise.

There is no place in the bible that tells us of eternal torments....And I prefer the first verse of Revelation...The one everyone seems to look over.


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## NE GA Pappy

hobbs27 said:


> That is about Jerusalem and the destruction in 70 ad. Nothing to do with individuals fate.
> 
> You may want to stop your discussion on this topic now unless you are willing to submit to the scriptures and accept what you have been taught is not biblical. It was very upsetting to me when I went through it.



I don't see this at all.  When I was in Jerusalem in March, it wasn't smoking.  It wasn't on fire, so what happened to the forever and ever part?


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## groundhawg

hobbs27 said:


> That is about Jerusalem and the destruction in 70 ad. Nothing to do with individuals fate.
> 
> You may want to stop your discussion on this topic now unless you are willing to submit to the scriptures and accept what you have been taught is not biblical. It was very upsetting to me when I went through it.



So wrong, so often.


----------



## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> I don't see this at all. When I was in Jerusalem in March, it wasn't smoking. It wasn't on fire, so what happened to the forever and ever part?


 
Apocalyptic language should be treated as such and not read literally. Literal translation brings lots of bad theology.

Isaiah 34 this was of the destruction of Edom. I've never been there but I seriously doubt the smoke is still rising.

Its streams shall be turned into pitch,
And its dust into brimstone;
Its land shall become burning pitch.
<SUP class=versenum>10 </SUP>It shall not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke shall ascend forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
No one shall pass through it forever and ever.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Whether cosumed or not makes no difference because their torment will be forever.
> 
> Rev.14:11
> "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image,and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
> 
> Sounds alot more to me than just a simple one time burning and dying and done deal.For ever and ever sounds like a very very long time with no rest day or night.



What about the reprobates who have already died? They never received the mark of the beast? You got a verse for them burning forever?


----------



## hobbs27

Commentary on Rev. 14:11
by Dr. Simmons
 The passage nowhere states that those being punished are even dead. Rather, the image here is of national judgment. It is derived from the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, whose destruction is described ,stating, "the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace." (Gen.19:28)  To suffer overthrow after the manner of Sodom was among the covenantal curses of the law. (Deut. 28:21-23)  Jesus thus warned the cities of Judea that a similar fate awaited them if they failed to repent and obey the gospel of the kingdom.( Matt. 11:21-24)


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## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> I truly believe to get the full picture of God's love AND His wrath, one must examine thoroughly what really took place at the cross of Calvary.His wrath was poured out upon His Son in ways we cannot imagine with our little minds.Jesus bore that wrath in the place of the elect and in doing so He FOREVER excused the elect.But, there are those who are not excused.And His righteous judgement for that must be satisfied.


Annihilationist would have you to believe that there is more than one satisfying savor unto God.

Christ put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Annihilationism is an anti-Christian doctrine.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> What about the reprobates who have already died? They never received the mark of the beast? You got a verse for them burning forever?



Read Matt.13:36-42 and tell me what you think.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Commentary on Rev. 14:11
> by Dr. Simmons
> The passage nowhere states that those being punished are even dead. Rather, the image here is of national judgment. It is derived from the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, whose destruction is described ,stating, "the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace." (Gen.19:28)  To suffer overthrow after the manner of Sodom was among the covenantal curses of the law. (Deut. 28:21-23)  Jesus thus warned the cities of Judea that a similar fate awaited them if they failed to repent and obey the gospel of the kingdom.( Matt. 11:21-24)



Let God be true and every man a liar.


----------



## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> Annihilationist would have you to believe that there is more than one satisfying savor unto God.
> 
> Christ put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
> 
> Annihilationism is an anti-Christian doctrine.



I guess I've lived a sheltered life(thankyou Lord), because I've never been exposed to very much annihilationism.


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> Annihilationist would have you to believe that there is more than one satisfying savor unto God.
> 
> Christ put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
> 
> Annihilationism is an anti-Christian doctrine.



Straw man. No one has suggested such a thing.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Let God be true and every man a liar.


Amen! That's why I gave up on ECT as a doctrine.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

hobbs27 said:


> Apocalyptic language should be treated as such and not read literally. Literal translation brings lots of bad theology.
> 
> Isaiah 34 this was of the destruction of Edom. I've never been there but I seriously doubt the smoke is still rising.
> 
> Its streams shall be turned into pitch,
> And its dust into brimstone;
> Its land shall become burning pitch.
> <SUP class=versenum>10 </SUP>It shall not be quenched night or day;
> Its smoke shall ascend forever.
> From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
> No one shall pass through it forever and ever.



so, you believe that this destruction of Edom has happened?  If you read this entire chapter for context, it is apparent the writer is talking about the end of the age, not his present time.


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Straw man. No one has suggested such a thing.


Go back and read the first paragraph of the OP.

See if you can think it through.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Read Matt.13:36-42 and tell me what you think.



It explains what will happen at the end of the age. I'm interested in what happens to reprobates already dead. When will they go to he!!? Do they wait in the ground until the "end of the age?" Waiting on some type of body to reap the pain of eternal suffering from burning flames?
When will the already dead reprobates receive the mark of the beast described in Revelations?


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## Artfuldodger

I think we all need to stay in the grave until the end of the age. It would make it all easier to understand.

John 5:28-30
28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. 30"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

We can now see Jesus doing the will of the one who sent him.


----------



## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> so, you believe that this destruction of Edom has happened?  If you read this entire chapter for context, it is apparent the writer is talking about the end of the age, not his present time.



Absolutely.

Edom aka Esau was destroyed, I think Malachi 1:3, either way I know it's in Malachi .
There's only two ages in the bible. The old covenant age that Jesus was born into, and the new covenant age. The old was in its last days in the Gospels, and epistles. The New has no end as Ephesians 3:21 makes clear.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Read Matt.13:36-42 and tell me what you think.



Do you see any difference between the already dead reprobates and the reprobates who will receive the mark of the beast at the end of the age? Perhaps those reprobates living during the Tribulation.

I'm interested in how individuals die only to return for a bodily resurrection. I find more about Saints on this subject than unbelievers. Do unbelievers just wait in the grave? If so then wouldn't that be conquering sin even if for a little while?


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> I think we all need to stay in the grave until the end of the age. It would make it all easier to understand.
> 
> John 5:28-30
> 28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. 30"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
> 
> We can now see Jesus doing the will of the one who sent him.



There will be some still alive when the Lord descends with a shout and the clouds are rolled back.The trump shall sound and the dead in Christ shall rise first.The angels shall gather all the elect from the four corners of the earth.And those that are alive and remain shall meet them in the air.And in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be changed!That's the resurrection that's coming.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> There will be some still alive when the Lord descends with a shout and the clouds are rolled back.The trump shall sound and the dead in Christ shall rise first.The angels shall gather all the elect from the four corners of the earth.And those that are alive and remain shall meet them in the air.And in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be changed!That's the ressurection that's coming.




I guess Paul gave the folks of Thessalonica a false hope...


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I guess Paul gave the folks of Thessalonica a false hope...



There's no false hope given there.It's the same hope that is given to all the elect.It doesn't just apply to the Thessalonians.


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## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> I guess Paul gave the folks of Thessalonica a false hope...


Not at all. Some were apparently troubled by the thought of it. Paul encourages them in 2 Thessalonians 1.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you see any difference between the already dead reprobates and the reprobates who will receive the mark of the beast at the end of the age? Perhaps those reprobates living during the Tribulation.
> 
> I'm interested in how individuals die only to return for a bodily resurrection. I find more about Saints on this subject than unbelievers. Do unbelievers just wait in the grave? If so then wouldn't that be conquering sin even if for a little while?



All people will be ressurected in their proper order,even the non-elect reprobates.Daniel 12:1-2 tells about it:

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> There's no false hope given there.It's the same hope that is given to all the elect.It doesn't just apply to the Thessalonians.



We are simply reading a letter that was addressed to them. Paul didn't say , in the future those that remain and are alive He said We that remain and alive. That we would be them not us.


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> All people will be ressurected in their proper order,even the non-elect reprobates.Daniel 12:1-2 tells about it:
> 
> Daniel 12
> 
> 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
> 
> 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



Maybe you, Gem, or others could explain where the already dead reprobates are right now as we speak? It appears Paul is saying to Timothy that soul sleep is true.
If the reprobates are in the dust sleeping, waiting on the end of age, haven't they defeated sin? As the Annihilationist would have you to believe, I'm sure they are very comfortable as the dead know nothing. 

John 5:28-30
28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. 30"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

These dead reprobates that are equal with Christ as the Annihilationist say, are dead in the ground. One day when Christ returns they will sleep no longer but hear his voice. By doing so these reprobates are equal to Christ as they have temporarily defeated their everlasting torture.


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> ... they have temporarily defeated their everlasting torture.



What portion of "everlasting" is "temporarily"?
(temp./ever.=?)


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## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> What portion of "everlasting" is "temporarily"?
> (temp./ever.=?)



That's what I'm trying to decide. Where does the dead reprobates go between their first and second death? Where do they go between their physical death and their physical resurrection? If they in fact sleep in the ground this is the same action Gem is stating that happens if reprobates don't go to He!! at their 2nd death. There would be this lull or temporary time between their physical death and their physical resurrection. Many Christians believe Saints go to Paradise or Heaven when they die a physical death and return to earth for their physical resurrection.
Do reprobates go to he11 when they die a physical death and return to the grave at the end of the age to hear Christ's voice and resurrect for their Judgement? If not then they have in fact defeated sin as Jesus did. It would be the same comparison that Gem is accusing the  Annihilationist of making.
Is the wages of sin death or eternally burning in He!!? If it's eternally burning then do the reprobates get a reprieve of sorts for their return trip to the earth for their physical resurrection?

These back and forth trips are confusing. I would like some verses on the dead reprobates making the return trip from he!! and re-entering their physical bodies to hear Christ's voice from their tombs as in John 5:28-30.


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## hobbs27

http://edwardfudge.com/2012/03/immortality-is-conditional/

Some light may be shed here.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> http://edwardfudge.com/2012/03/immortality-is-conditional/
> 
> Some light may be shed here.



Amen, Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in he11.


Matthew 10:32
"Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.

Amen for our Mediator.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> That's what I'm trying to decide. Where does the dead reprobates go between their first and second death? Where do they go between their physical death and their physical resurrection? If they in fact sleep in the ground this is the same action Gem is stating that happens if reprobates don't go to He!! at their 2nd death. There would be this lull or temporary time between their physical death and their physical resurrection. Many Christians believe Saints go to Paradise or Heaven when they die a physical death and return to earth for their physical resurrection.
> Do reprobates go to he11 when they die a physical death and return to the grave at the end of the age to hear Christ's voice and resurrect for their Judgement? If not then they have in fact defeated sin as Jesus did. It would be the same comparison that Gem is accusing the  Annihilationist of making.
> Is the wages of sin death or eternally burning in He!!? If it's eternally burning then do the reprobates get a reprieve of sorts for their return trip to the earth for their physical resurrection?
> 
> These back and forth trips are confusing. I would like some verses on the dead reprobates making the return trip from he!! and re-entering their physical bodies to hear Christ's voice from their tombs as in John 5:28-30.



Very simple.

Eccl.12:7 " Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

There is no soul sleep.When the bible speaks of a dead person sleeping,it's referring to the dead body in the grave.Not the soul.

Jesus told the thief on the cross that today he would be with Him in paradise.However,He did not tell the other thief that.This thief went to a place seperated from paradise by a large gulf(as described in the parable of the rich man and Lazerus).I tend to believe this is the same place described in Revelation as the bottomless pit.


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Very simple.
> 
> Eccl.12:7 " Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
> 
> There is no soul sleep.When the bible speaks of a dead person sleeping,it's referring to the dead body in the grave.Not the soul.
> 
> Jesus told the thief on the cross that today he would be with Him in paradise.However,He did not tell the other thief that.This thief went to a place seperated from paradise by a large gulf(as described in the parable of the rich man and Lazerus).I tend to believe this is the same place described in Revelation as the bottomless pit.



Is this a different holding place than he!! that reprobate souls go to between their physical death and their physical resurrection? I guess it's a sort of quazi-he!! or a mirror of the real he11 as in the parable it was hot. It would have to be a precursor to he11 with real flames to get the eternal everlasting punishment started. Otherwise it would be a reprieve. Especially for the reprobates who died 1,000 years ago.
It's interesting to me all of the various scenarios of where souls go awaiting their physical resurrections. I can't find many verses about the reprobate's souls return trip to their tombs in order to hear Christ's voice at the end of the age.
Then there is that problem of the reprobates escaping their eternal everlasting punishment of burning for their return trip to the earth to hear Christ's voice, resurrect, and face their final judgement. This trip back would provide a reprieve from their punishment which would make them equal to Christ in escaping the penalty of sin. Albeit if only temporary.


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## Artfuldodger

John 5:28-30
28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. 30"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

I never really thought about it but when do the Saints re-enter their tombs to hear Christ's voice? I've always been taught their souls waited in clouds for their resurrected bodies. John 5:29 says they re-enter their physical bodies in the tomb.


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Is this a different holding place than he!! that reprobate souls go to between their physical death and their physical resurrection? I guess it's a sort of quazi-he!! or a mirror of the real he11 as in the parable it was hot. It would have to be a precursor to he11 with real flames to get the eternal everlasting punishment started. Otherwise it would be a reprieve. Especially for the reprobates who died 1,000 years ago.
> It's interesting to me all of the various scenarios of where souls go awaiting their physical resurrections. I can't find many verses about the reprobate's souls return trip to their tombs in order to hear Christ's voice at the end of the age.
> Then there is that problem of the reprobates escaping their eternal everlasting punishment of burning for their return trip to the earth to hear Christ's voice, resurrect, and face their final judgement. This trip back would provide a reprieve from their punishment which would make them equal to Christ in escaping the penalty of sin. Albeit if only temporary.



Jude speaks of when Jesus comes back He will come with "ten thousand" of His saints.I believe the number 10,000 is figurative,but not the act.

Job 19:25-27 says:
" For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Very simple.
> 
> Eccl.12:7 " Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
> 
> There is no soul sleep.When the bible speaks of a dead person sleeping,it's referring to the dead body in the grave.Not the soul.



Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then the dust [of mortals] goes back to the ground as it was before, and the breath of life goes back to God who gave it.

The body without the spirit is dead. We must look at the meanings of the words  ruach and pneuma which could mean  invisible power or energy. 

At some point we must decide on what is spiritual and what is physical as it pertains to life and death. Everlasting life can be physical or spiritual. Eternal death can be physical or spiritual but death is death. There is a big difference between everlasting life and eternal death whether it be physical or spiritual. 
When I think of death, I think of physical & spiritual death, separation from God being eternal punishment. When I think of life, I think of spiritual life living everlasting with God and his Son Jesus. It's just the opposite of death. Perhaps this life with God and his Son will also be physical.
Eternity in He11 isn't death. It's like a life sentence in prison vs the electric chair.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Jude speaks of when Jesus comes back He will come with "ten thousand" of His saints.I believe the number 10,000 is figurative,but not the act.
> 
> Job 19:25-27 says:
> For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
> 
> And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
> 
> Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.



True, that's the picture of the Saints returning to their tombs to hear Christ's voice as in John 5:28-30 but what about the reprobates? What scripture tells us of the reprobates returning from their holding place you described as in the parable if Lazarus and the rich man?
How or when do they return to their tombs to hear the voice of Christ described in John 5:28-30?


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## alvishere

none of us can comprehend the real meaning of God's Word........
(Meaning we cannot even comprehend what Heaven or Heii might be)
  Most on here like myself don't even have a collage education....I did not go to a bible seminary .....can't read Greek or Hebrew...
    You accept by Faith, not by works or even your interpretation of Words of the Bible.
     Problem is most like to enterprate the bible to there lifestyle,  if they do something that Bible teaches against....instead of studying why it's wrong, they cherry pick verses that will to prove to themselves why it is justified.
     You are either saved or not, when you die you will spend enturnity in Heaven or Heii......even if you don't believe that.....no matter what you believe you can not change that.
         If you lead someone down the wrong path....you will be accounted for that at Judgement.
     Believe what you want....but beware of teaching someone that God's word is not  true and don't mean what it says.


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## Artfuldodger

I think this Lazarus resurrection story is more important than the parable of Lazarus and the rich man which might be more about "why would they believe someone returning from the grave if they don't believe Moses and the Prophets?" It could be more about faith.

24Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

This story stresses that if one believes in Jesus they will never die. I believe this. Death sounds so permanent. It sounds like something sin caused.


----------



## formula1

*re:*

Matthew 22 
1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants[a] to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

At the very least, outer darkness is reserved for those who have no garment. You don't just sneak in and hope you have the right garment. You must enter it with the garment of Christ!

So put on Christ!


----------



## gemcgrew

alvishere said:


> none of us can comprehend the real meaning of God's Word........
> (Meaning we cannot even comprehend what Heaven or Heii might be)


According to Paul, this places you in the camp of non-Christians. Paul clearly explains this in 1 Corinthians 2.

"But we have the mind of Christ".


----------



## hobbs27

"If not for the thought of burning forever I would have rejected Christ".  
 Said no Christian ever.


----------



## hummerpoo

hummerpoo said:


> What portion of "everlasting" is "temporarily"?
> (temp./ever.=?)



n/âˆž = 0
Everlasting (eternal) = âˆžt
1 hr./âˆžt = 0t
1 yr./âˆžt = 0t
2000 yr./âˆžt = 0t
Is. 55:8-11
Our thoughts/God’s thoughts = 0
Our ways/God’s ways = 0

We can't think on God's level,
a fact that He has accommodated,
but we must always remember the fact.


----------



## hummerpoo

welderguy said:


> Mathew 25:46
> "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal".





welderguy said:


> Daniel 12
> 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



Most, probably all, of the related scripture, and there is plenty, can be read as we choose, but it's difficult to apply a different time factors to the righteous and the unrighteous.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> We are simply reading a letter that was addressed to them. Paul didn't say , in the future those that remain and are alive He said We that remain and alive. That we would be them not us.



I feel the need to digress for a moment here.

The text in question is 1 Thess.4:13-18

" 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."


First of all,your argument of the "we" being only the Thessalonians does not hold water because,if that were the case,you would have to dismiss pretty much all the other letters Paul wrote.They too were written to specific churches with specific individuals.If we say "it doesn't apply to me because it was written to those people only",we are on a crash course of rejecting all scriptures that don't fit our belief system.

I believe the entire bible is applicable to every person in every generation when rightly divided by the spirit.(2Tim.3:16-17)

One other thing: If you say the "we" in vs 13-16 is only the Thessalonians,aren't you excluding yourself from "and so shall WE ever be with the Lord." in vs 17?

I believe Paul is referring to the collective group of elect children in every general time period as a whole.


----------



## welderguy

hummerpoo said:


> Most, probably all, of the related scripture, and there is plenty, can be read as we choose, but it's difficult to apply a different time factors to the righteous and the unrighteous.



I agree.very difficult.
I'm glad it's not up to me to have every answer just right for it to work out as God intends for it to.

I enjoy trying though.


----------



## Artfuldodger

What are some verses that let us know the reprobate's eternal punishment begins at his physical death and where this place is located? If the reprobates punishment is everlasting then it can't stop long enough for him to return to his tomb to hear Christ's voice. He can't sleep in the grave as this would be avoiding his eternal punishment. 
Unless his punishment is death he must go somewhere to be punished and then back to his grave for his physical resurrection and judgement.
Much like the Saints that have everlasting life can't stay in their graves, they must go some where and wait for their return to their graves. 
Where do the reprobates go? Is this waiting place as hot as the Lake of Fire? Could it have been the center of the Earth? Did the resurrection of Jesus change where dead saints or reprobates waited?


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> What are some verses that let us know the reprobate's eternal punishment begins at his physical death and where this place is located? If the reprobates punishment is everlasting then it can't stop long enough for him to return to his tomb to hear Christ's voice. He can't sleep in the grave as this would be avoiding his eternal punishment.
> Unless his punishment is death he must go somewhere to be punished and then back to his grave for his physical resurrection and judgement.
> Much like the Saints that have everlasting life can't stay in their graves, they must go some where and wait for their return to their graves.
> Where do the reprobates go? Is this waiting place as hot as the Lake of Fire? Could it have been the center of the Earth? Did the resurrection of Jesus change where dead saints or reprobates waited?



The dead bodies will hear the voice of Jesus without their soul.
That's resurrection power right there.Lots of verses supporting this.Some we've already listed.Some were even quoted by you.


----------



## BAR308

welderguy said:


> Mathew 25:46
> "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal".



when the Bible says "eternal", "everlasting" etc... does it ALWAYS mean "for eternity"??

Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

was this covenant really "eternal"? no. the OT covenant passed away for a NEW and better covenant...


Exodus 40:15 and thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest’s office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

was this everlasting 'priesthood' an eternal priesthood or did it go away in favor of a NEW priesthood? it went away and a NEW priesthood was established.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

is sodom STILL burning?? it must be still burning since the verse here says... "eternal".. wrong.
the Bible does not always mean eternal when it says eternal. how can that be? we lost the true meaning of the words in translation... 

look at this verse in the ASV.

1 Timothy 1:17
17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

if forever means "eternal"... why would God say "forever and ever"... because He is saying "eternity and eternity". Now does that make ANY sense at all to say eternity and eternity? no.

look at this LITERAL version.

1 Timothy 1:17 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

17 and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, [is] honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.

we can see what the verse means now... its an "age" to an "age"... an age is a period of time with beginning and end. NOT eternity.

now lets go back to the verse above in Exodus..

Exodus 40:15 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
15 and anointed them as thou hast anointed their father, and they have acted as priests to Me, and their anointing hath been to be to them for a priesthood age-during, to their generations.'

what was an everlasting 'priesthood' in another version is only an "age during" (with beginning and end) in the Youngs Literal translation. it could not possibly eternal as we know the priesthood changed in the NT. and we know the OT law of moses was changed to a NT covenant.

you have to understand that many words lost their meaning in some of our Bible versions. one word in the Hebrew may have MANY meanings... where in english it may have only or two meanings... you have to study out the meaning of the KEY words in the bible to get the TRUE meaning... and/or go back to what the Jews believed the meaning of the words meant. the Jews have the true meanings FAR better than we do. most messianic Jews understand "hades/sheol" to be the... GRAVE... NOT eternal torments as the KJ plasters all thru the bible.


----------



## welderguy

BAR308 said:


> when the Bible says "eternal", "everlasting" etc... does it ALWAYS mean "for eternity"??
> 
> Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
> 
> was this covenant really "eternal"? no. the OT covenant passed away for a NEW and better covenant...
> 
> 
> Exodus 40:15 and thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest’s office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.
> 
> was this everlasting 'priesthood' an eternal priesthood or did it go away in favor of a NEW priesthood? it went away and a NEW priesthood was established.
> 
> Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
> 
> is sodom STILL burning?? it must be still burning since the verse here says... "eternal".. wrong.
> the Bible does not always mean eternal when it says eternal. how can that be? we lost the true meaning of the words in translation...
> 
> look at this verse in the ASV.
> 
> 1 Timothy 1:17
> 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
> 
> if forever means "eternal"... why would God say "forever and ever"... because He is saying "eternity and eternity". Now does that make ANY sense at all to say eternity and eternity? no.
> 
> look at this LITERAL version.
> 
> 1 Timothy 1:17 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
> 
> 17 and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, [is] honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.
> 
> we can see what the verse means now... its an "age" to an "age"... an age is a period of time with beginning and end. NOT eternity.
> 
> now lets go back to the verse above in Exodus..
> 
> Exodus 40:15 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
> 15 and anointed them as thou hast anointed their father, and they have acted as priests to Me, and their anointing hath been to be to them for a priesthood age-during, to their generations.'
> 
> what was an everlasting 'priesthood' in another version is only an "age during" (with beginning and end) in the Youngs Literal translation. it could not possibly eternal as we know the priesthood changed in the NT. and we know the OT law of moses was changed to a NT covenant.
> 
> you have to understand that many words lost their meaning in some of our Bible versions. one word in the Hebrew may have MANY meanings... where in english it may have only or two meanings... you have to study out the meaning of the KEY words in the bible to get the TRUE meaning... and/or go back to what the Jews believed the meaning of the words meant. the Jews have the true meanings FAR better than we do. most messianic Jews understand "hades/sheol" to be the... GRAVE... NOT eternal torments as the KJ plasters all thru the bible.



You have some good points.I agree, we must find the true meanings of the translated words.I personally try to stick with the KJV but it also must be scrutinized carefully. We're all disciples, ever learning and re-learning. 

Thanks for the good advice brother !


----------



## hummerpoo

BAR308 said:


> when the Bible says "eternal", "everlasting" etc... does it ALWAYS mean "for eternity"??
> 
> ...
> 
> NOT eternal torments as the KJ plasters all thru the bible.



Did not Matthew use the same word, in the same sentence, in the same context, under the same inspiration, to express the duration of the fate of both the righteous and the unrighteous?


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## BAR308

ALL THRU the word of God we see the words... DESTROY, PERISH, DIE, DEATH, CONSUME, DESTRUCTION as the FATE of the soul of the unsaved people. there are only a few verses spoken by Jesus... ONLY (nobody else in the entire of Scripture mentioned anything about "eternal conscious torments)... Jesus spoke in Parables most of the time to the 'religious' sects of His day. 

when Jesus said "heck" the word used most of the time is 'gehenna'... Gehenna means the Valley of Hinnom which was a LITERAL ACTUAL place outside of Jerusalem where the dead were burned... so when Jesus was saying 'heck'... He was speaking of this actual place SYMBOLICALLY.

Gehenna -
Î³á½³ÎµÎ½Î½Î± géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (FIGURATIVELY) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:â€”heck.

So Jesus was not LITERALLY saying the lost people would go to gehenna b/c gehenna was a literal valley outside of Jerusalem where the DEAD were burned... not the living. the DEAD.  

if you take it literally then you have to believe ALL the unsaved dead will go there to be burned. do we find anyone being burned at the valley of hinnom today? no. there is nobody being burned there today.  Jesus was speaking figuratively not literally.

will lost souls be burned literally? yes. in the lake of fire which is heck. will they be burned for eternity? no b/c all thru the Bible the Scripture says that the soul that sins must _______?

"burn forever"? or die?  the soul that sins must DIE (perish, destroyed, death, etc)... not burn forever in eternity which is actually "eternal life".

which is the 2nd DEATH.

Revelation 20:14 
And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.

the unsaved souls that dont find eternal life thru Jesus are consumed in the lake of fire (heck) which is the 2nd death... you cant have death and eternal life in the lake of fire. if a soul is burning forever in eternal conscious torments then they are not dead... they are "alive"...

can any of you who believe that the fate of the unsaved souls is eternal conscious torment... please explain how a soul can be dead AND alive in 'heck'... at the same time?


----------



## BAR308

hummerpoo said:


> Did not Matthew use the same word, in the same sentence, in the same context, under the same inspiration, to express the duration of the fate of both the righteous and the unrighteous?



only God is "eternal" - which means w/o beginning and w/o end. everything else is with beginning and not eternal. and therefore it is an "age". this meaning is mostly lost in translation.  

did Paul say we are eternal beings??

1 Corinthians 15:53 for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality;

1 Corinthians 15:54 and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up -- to victory;

1 Timothy 6:16 who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom [is] honour and might age-during! Amen



ONLY God is IMmortal. we are mortals.. the soul that sins MUST ____________?

burn forever in a furnace (which is eternal life) or die?

the soul that sins must die. UNLESS we PUT ON immortality thru Jesus, His blood, His cross and His life.

does heck exist? yes, its the lake of fire... BUT, for all of these verses about death (perishing, destroy, destruction) to make sense at all.. the soul that sins and does not get regenerated (saved) by Jesus... must die in the lake or fire... which is the 2nd death.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> The dead bodies will hear the voice of Jesus without their soul.
> That's resurrection power right there.Lots of verses supporting this.Some we've already listed.Some were even quoted by you.



John 5:28-29
28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

So what you are saying is that when Christ returns and calls people out of their graves, it's just their bodies?  Then why even mention these verses as proof of eternal punishment? Where are the souls of these people who are in their graves, saints and reprobates? We know the saints return for their physical resurrection. We know they hear the voice of Christ because they have always been with him. But the reprobates? Are you saying their souls are already being eternally punished and don't return for the 2nd coming of Christ? That their physical dead bodies can hear the voice of Christ even though their souls are already away being punished? What or how does Christ resurrect reprobate's physical bodies if their souls aren't with them for their final judgement? It would stand to reason the the soul of an individual is a major part of that person. It would stand to reason that at some point the reprobate's soul must re-enter their resurrected body and stand before Christ for their judgement. Otherwise why would Christ judge their shell? Why sentence their shell to eternal punishment separate from their soul?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Hobbs, I would think that John 5:28-29 happened at the resurrection of Christ. 
Regardless of when it happens, how do you explain reprobates coming back to life? If reprobates die when they die, then they would need to be judged before their 2nd death. It appears there is a lapse between saints and reprobates physical death and their 2nd spiritual death for reprobates and eternal life for saints. I'm assuming that now when people die a physical death, they are judged immediately for their 2nd death. It hasn't always been this way. Did the dead sleep in their graves before Christ's resurrection?
In John 5:28-29 these dead people in their tombs are resurrected. Why were the dead reprobates awakened? 

What I'm having trouble visualizing and maybe your avatar points this out, is when people die a physical death, under the old plan or the new plan, their spirit/soul goes somewhere. Regardless of if it comes back to re-unite with it's physical body. I can't find much information or Bible verses explaining the reprobates soul/spirit returning to re-enter it's physical body. 
I do understand that you don't believe our resurrection is physical but some people had or will have a physical resurrection as John 5 tells us.


----------



## hummerpoo

BAR308 said:


> ... mostly lost in translation. ... ??



Was that a "yes", a "no", or a maybe?


----------



## Spotlite

BAR308 said:


> when the Bible says "eternal", "everlasting" etc... does it ALWAYS mean "for eternity"??



See Mark 9 and Revelations 20 KJV


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, I would think that John 5:28-29 happened at the resurrection of Christ.
> Regardless of when it happens, how do you explain reprobates coming back to life? If reprobates die when they die, then they would need to be judged before their 2nd death. It appears there is a lapse between saints and reprobates physical death and their 2nd spiritual death for reprobates and eternal life for saints. I'm assuming that now when people die a physical death, they are judged immediately for their 2nd death. It hasn't always been this way. Did the dead sleep in their graves before Christ's resurrection?
> In John 5:28-29 these dead people in their tombs are resurrected. Why were the dead reprobates awakened?
> 
> What I'm having trouble visualizing and maybe your avatar points this out, is when people die a physical death, under the old plan or the new plan, their spirit/soul goes somewhere. Regardless of if it comes back to re-unite with it's physical body. I can't find much information or Bible verses explaining the reprobates soul/spirit returning to re-enter it's physical body.
> I do understand that you don't believe our resurrection is physical but some people had or will have a physical resurrection as John 5 tells us.



I was going to remain silent on this, but since you ask.
 The rich man was in Hades, just as Lazarus, but Lazarus was in Abrahams bosom, ie paradise, where Christ and the good thief went the day they died.
 The rich man was separated by a great gulf and was in torments...Both were awaiting Christ for judgement. If you are a futurist you believe this system is still intact, so the unrighteous dead are in torments when they die awaiting final judgement. 

I believe Hades has been cast into the lake of fire, and is no longer needed in the New Covenant, for we have eternal life. Hades was a place for the dead ones.  The new covenant proclaims , A man dies once, then the judgement. So we physically die, then we are judged as to whether we have the blood of Christ applied or not,if not, you are cast into the lake of fire for the second death.

For the life of me I see no reason for someone that has obtained Christ and has eternal life to sit in a grave ( Hades) awaiting Christ to raise the dead ones. Futurism makes no sense to me at all.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I was going to remain silent on this, but since you ask.
> The rich man was in Hades, just as Lazarus, but Lazarus was in Abrahams bosom, ie paradise, where Christ and the good thief went the day they died.
> The rich man was seperated by a great gulf and was in torments...Both were awaiting Christ for judgement. If you are a futurist you believe this system is still intact, so the unrighteous dead are in torments when they die awaiting final judgement.
> 
> I believe Hades has been cast into the lake of fire, and is no longer needed in the New Covenant, for we have eternal life. Hades was a place for the dead ones.  The new covenant proclaims , A man dies once, then the judgement. So we physically die, then we are judged as to whether we have the blood of Christ applied or not,if not, you are cast into the lake of fire for the second death.
> 
> For the life of me I see no reason for someone that has obtained Christ and has eternal life to sit in a grave ( Hades) awaiting Christ to raise the dead ones. Futurism makes no sense to me at all.



If we are judged immediately when we die, then why does He say He separates the goats on the left and sheep on the right and then makes the final judgement upon each as a group?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Can anyone show any verse from the OT that hints of an eternal punishment?  Of course this does not mean if it aint in the old then it cant be in the NT. But we can narrow the field to the NT. What this does is show those who assume it is there, it must be, that it is not. From here one looks much more careful at exactly what does the NT say regarding this.


----------



## Spotlite

1gr8bldr said:


> Can anyone show any verse from the OT that hints of an eternal punishment?  Of course this does not mean if it aint in the old then it cant be in the NT. But we can narrow the field to the NT. What this does is show those who assume it is there, it must be, that it is not. From here one looks much more careful at exactly what does the NT say regarding this.



Daniel 12 and Isaiah 66


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> If we are judged immediately when we die, then why does He say He separates the goats on the left and sheep on the right and then makes the final judgement upon each as a group?


 
Matthew 25 is not talking about a final judgment, but the judgment that came already..Or are you telling me that Christ is not seated on His throne already?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I feel the need to digress for a moment here.
> 
> The text in question is 1 Thess.4:13-18
> 
> " 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
> 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
> 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
> 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
> 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
> 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
> 
> 
> First of all,your argument of the "we" being only the Thessalonians does not hold water because,if that were the case,you would have to dismiss pretty much all the other letters Paul wrote.They too were written to specific churches with specific individuals.If we say "it doesn't apply to me because it was written to those people only",we are on a crash course of rejecting all scriptures that don't fit our belief system.
> 
> I believe the entire bible is applicable to every person in every generation when rightly divided by the spirit.(2Tim.3:16-17)
> 
> One other thing: If you say the "we" in vs 13-16 is only the Thessalonians,aren't you excluding yourself from "and so shall WE ever be with the Lord." in vs 17?
> 
> I believe Paul is referring to the collective group of elect children in every general time period as a whole.


 
 Allow me to elaborate. The (we) is not just the church in Thessalonica, but the Christians in the first century. Otherwise Paul gave them a false hope as they were worried about their brethren that had died before Christ returned.

Here's something for you to think about.




Matthew 24                       1 Thessalonians 4-5







Christ returns from heaven          Matt. 24:30  =       1 Thess. 4:16






With archangelic voice                Matt. 24:31  =  1 Thess. 4:16





With God’s trumpet                      Matt. 24:31 =        1 Thess. 4:16




Gathered/caught up with Christ   Matt. 24:31 =  1 Thess. 4:17



“Meet” Christ in clouds      Matt. 24:30; 25:6 =   1 Thess. 4:17




Exact time unknown                     Matt. 24:36 =  1 Thess. 5:1-2








Christ comes like a thief               Matt. 24:43 =  1 Thess. 5:2





Unbelievers caught unaware   Matt. 24:37-39 =1 Thess. 5:3





Birth pains                                      Matt. 24:8 =1 Thess. 5:3





Believers are not deceived           Matt. 24:43 =1 Thess. 5:4-5





Believers told to be watchful        Matt. 24:42 =1 Thess. 5:6





Exhortation against drunkenness  Matt. 24:49 =1 Thess. 5:7





The Day/Sons of day[4]       Matt. 24:27, 36-38 =1Thess. 5:4-8





First Century “you” “we”         Matt. 24:2-34 =1 Thess. 4:15-17




Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians four are parallel to one another, but Matthew 24:34 gives us a time frame.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

How do you answer that? ^^^^^^


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Allow me to elaborate. The (we) is not just the church in Thessalonica, but the Christians in the first century. Otherwise Paul gave them a false hope as they were worried about their brethren that had died before Christ returned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians four are parallel to one another, but Matthew 24:34 gives us a time frame.
> 
> Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
> 
> How do you answer that? ^^^^^^



The way I answer that is the same way I've been answering it. 
Matt.24:34 is speaking of the physical destruction of Jerusalem and the temple,by the Roman Army, in a comparison to when Jesus will return and destroy the world and sin and death.

In my mind,it has to be that way because of all the other texts that speak of Jesus' physical return and what things will take place then.They haven't happened yet,obviously,because the world is still here,and getting worse and worse.Sin is still here.And death is still here.

Jesus has not rolled back the sky and appeared with the brightness of His glory at the sound of a trumpet.The wicked have not wished for the rocks to fall on them.The elements have not melted with a fervent heat.He hasn't folded the earth up like a garment.None of those things have happened yet.Believe me,when it happens,there will be NO doubt in anyone's mind what is taking place.You and I certainly will not be debating it anymore,that's for certain.

Make no mistake,Jesus left as a lamb,but He will return as a Lion.And when He does,every knee shall bow,and every tongue will confess that He is Lord.

That hasn't happened yet,I promise you.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> The way I answer that is the same way I've been answering it.
> Matt.24:34 is speaking of the physical destruction of Jerusalem and the temple,by the Roman Army, in a comparison to when Jesus will return and destroy the world and sin and death.
> 
> In my mind,it has to be that way because of all the other texts that speak of Jesus' physical return and what things will take place then.They haven't happened yet,obviously,because the world is still here,and getting worse and worse.Sin is still here.And death is still here.
> 
> Jesus has not rolled back the sky and appeared with the brightness of His glory at the sound of a trumpet.The wicked have not wished for the rocks to fall on them.The elements have not melted with a fervent heat.He hasn't folded the earth up like a garment.None of those things have happened yet.Believe me,when it happens,there will be NO doubt in anyone's mind what is taking place.You and I certainly will not be debating it anymore,that's for certain.
> 
> Make no mistake,Jesus left as a lamb,but He will return as a Lion.And when He does,every knee shall bow,and every tongue will confess that He is Lord.
> 
> That hasn't happened yet,I promise you.


 
 I appreciate the promise but please don't be offended when I take Christ words over yours.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy. A little lesson on apocalyptic langage.

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/fulfill.shtml


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I appreciate the promise but please don't be offended when I take Christ words over yours.
> 
> Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.



I'm not offended at all.Just utterly baffled by your beliefs.Brother,I don't think you could offend me even if you tried.

But I really need you to patiently help me understand when exactly and how and where those things took place that I mentioned. And while you're at it, could you explain what exactly am I to look forward to, if it's not the coming of Christ to take me out of this low ground of sin and sorrow.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I'm not offended at all.Just utterly baffled by your beliefs.Brother,I don't think you could offend me even if you tried.
> 
> But I really need you to patiently help me understand when exactly and how and where those things took place that I mentioned. And while you're at it, could you explain what exactly am I to look forward to, if it's not the coming of Christ to take me out of this low ground of sin and sorrow.


 

 The video will help you understand the language by example. What are you to look forward to? Eternity with a victorious savior!


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> What are you to look forward to? Eternity with a victorious savior!



You are being too vague.You must give me details.Will it be on earth or heaven?Will I have a physical or spiritual body?Will I be able to eat with this body or sing?Will I be able to wear a crown or have arms to be able to cast that crown at Jesus' feet?....Do I sound like Art with all these questions?


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## 1gr8bldr

Spotlite said:


> Daniel 12 and Isaiah 66


Isaiah 66


When you see this, your heart will rejoice
    and you will flourish like grass;
the hand of the Lord will be made known to his servants,
    but his fury will be shown to his foes.
15 See, the Lord is coming with fire,
    and his chariots are like a whirlwind;
he will bring down his anger with fury,
    and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For with fire and with his sword
    the Lord will execute judgment on all people,
    and many will be those slain by the Lord.


New International Version
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

No hint of eternity. Just destroyed
Where do you see eternal suffering here? Continuity with John 15;6


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## 1gr8bldr

Spotlite said:


> Daniel 12 and Isaiah 66


Daniel 12;2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Again, nothing here to validate "everlasting punishment"... and "contempt" is abhorrence. Nothing about punishment
 That word everlasting is translated 136 times as forever. Some to life forever and others to abhorrence forever. In other words, we are offered a choice in this life. Repent and turn to Jesus.... because once this life is over, no more chances. The proper context is "Irreversible"


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> If we are judged immediately when we die, then why does He say He separates the goats on the left and sheep on the right and then makes the final judgement upon each as a group?



If we aren't judged immediately when we die a physical death, how are our souls separated into sheep and goats?
When we die a physical death don't you believe the souls of saints go to Paradise to be with Christ? Don't you believe the souls of reprobates go to another holding place? How is this possible if the "group" Judgement hasn't happened yet?
How is this possible as John 5 tells us this separation happens at the return of Christ? When our physical bodies are resurrected.


----------



## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> Daniel 12;2
> Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.



Hey 1gr8bldr nice to hear from you. So where do you think the souls of saints and reprobates go before their bodies awake? Or do their physical bodies ever awake? If not why do they sleep in the dust?


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## Spotlite

1gr8bldr said:


> Isaiah 66
> 
> 
> When you see this, your heart will rejoice
> and you will flourish like grass;
> the hand of the Lord will be made known to his servants,
> but his fury will be shown to his foes.
> 15 See, the Lord is coming with fire,
> and his chariots are like a whirlwind;
> he will bring down his anger with fury,
> and his rebuke with flames of fire.
> 16 For with fire and with his sword
> the Lord will execute judgment on all people,
> and many will be those slain by the Lord.
> 
> 
> New International Version
> If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
> 
> No hint of eternity. Just destroyed
> Where do you see eternal suffering here? Continuity with John 15;6


Go on down to verse 22 and finish reading. You may be looking for words that may not be in the Bible, such as "Rapture" but it's meaning is. Where the worm dies not and the fire quentich not tells you that whatever tgat Fire is burning, it's not consuming it and burning out.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Man is mortal. Unless given an eternal Spirit, the HS. Angels are eternal. Those who fell from heaven can not die. They will be thrown in something like he1l. They will not die. Unsaved will be thrown in this same place but will be destroyed


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## Spotlite

And BTW, by personal choice, I only read KJV.


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## Spotlite

1gr8bldr said:


> Man is mortal. Unless given an eternal Spirit, the HS. Angels are eternal. Those who fell from heaven can not die. They will be thrown in something like he1l. They will not die. Unsaved will be thrown in this same place but will be destroyed



I'm ok with that. Weather they are destroyed or burn forever makes no difference to me. My plans are not to visit that place to see what and how it happens there.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> According to Paul, this places you in the camp of non-Christians. Paul clearly explains this in 1 Corinthians 2.
> 
> "But we have the mind of Christ".



Would you say this thread is showing how many people don't have the Spirit of God within them? Amazing isn't it. The camp is very small.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Spotlite said:


> Go on down to verse 22 and finish reading. You may be looking for words that may not be in the Bible, such as "Rapture" but it's meaning is. Where the worm dies not and the fire quentich not tells you that whatever tgat Fire is burning, it's not consuming it and burning out.


That is referring to gehena. A place which was the trash dump of the city. People were bringing dung, trash, etc to it constantly. It's fire continued, But the trash was destroyed.


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## 1gr8bldr

Rom 9;3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race,

Would Paul really say this if it meant burning in he11 forever if he believed in a modern version of he11???


----------



## Spotlite

1gr8bldr said:


> That is referring to gehena. A place which was the trash dump of the city. People were bringing dung, trash, etc to it constantly. It's fire continued, But the trash was destroyed.



if you say so


----------



## BAR308

Spotlite said:


> See Mark 9 and Revelations 20 KJV



educate yourself...

Topic: "Eternal"

<1,,165,aion> "AN AGE," is translated "eternal" in Eph. 3:11, lit., "(purpose) OF THE AGES" (marg.). See AGE.

<2,,166,aionios> 
"DESCRIBES DURATION, either UNDEFINED BUT NOT ENDLESS, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2;


----------



## Artfuldodger

Where does the reprobate's soul go at his physical death? The reprobate's soul  isn't covered by the atoning blood of Christ.
Hasn't he already been judged for eternal death or punishment just by being an un-washed sinner? Just because he has never been born again? 

But John 5:28-29 says;                                                                      Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of he11.  

If the reprobate's soul sleeps in the grave or Hades, hasn't he defeated sin and is equal to Christ in that respect?
The only way to get around this is to have the reprobate thrown into fire immediately at his physical death. To be destroyed by eternal flames and worms or to be eternally burned.


----------



## BAR308

1gr8bldr said:


> Can anyone show any verse from the OT that hints of an eternal punishment?  Of course this does not mean if it aint in the old then it cant be in the NT. But we can narrow the field to the NT. What this does is show those who assume it is there, it must be, that it is not. From here one looks much more careful at exactly what does the NT say regarding this.



there is NO hint of eternal conscious torment anywhere in the bible except for a few parables that Jesus spoke... using the valley of hinnom (gehenna) as figurative speech... but most folks wont see this as they wont take the time to study it out.... they just blindly follow their preachers no matter what they say that goes against the bible


----------



## Spotlite

1gr8bldr said:


> Rom 9;3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race,
> 
> Would Paul really say this if it meant burning in he11 forever if he believed in a modern version of he11???



BTW, "contempt" in That scripture refers to abhorrence. Contempt has many synonyms, so does abhorrence. Describing excitement or fear. Something everlasting in fear is certainly not sounding like a place of quick death. But you've been shown many scripture, it's obvious that scripture alone is not going to help you since you have an way of explaining it all away. Just keep studying and plan not to go to dump, hot place, hades, lake of fire etc.


----------



## BAR308

Artfuldodger said:


> Where does the reprobate's soul go at his physical death? The reprobate's soul  isn't covered by the atoning blood of Christ.
> Hasn't he already been judged for eternal death or punishment just by being an un-washed sinner? Just because he has never been born again?
> 
> But John 5:28-29 says;                                                                      Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredation.
> 
> If the reprobate's soul sleeps in the grave or Hades, hasn't he defeated sin and is equal to Christ in that respect?



the unsaved die and go to the grave cuz God said they are "reserved" for judgement. the judgment comes at the end of this "age". they are resurrected and judged and sent to the lake of fire (heck) to be tormented to pay for sins... then they are consumed as the bible says... yes he's judged here but will get their official judgment at the great white throne.


----------



## Spotlite

BAR308 said:


> there is NO hint of eternal conscious torment anywhere in the bible except for a few parables that Jesus spoke...



I think you are wrong but......if Jesus said it, then why question it? Parables or not, Jesus had no reason to hint, describe or even refer to anything of the nature if it didn't exist.

If this doesn't exist or only exist for a few fallen angels etc, why would it have to enlarge itself? Isaiah 5.

Based on your theory, if the lake of fire doesn't exist because Jesus only referred to in parables in a few places, what about Heaven? He spoke of Heaven many times in parables.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BAR308 said:


> the unsaved die and go to the grave cuz God said they are "reserved" for judgement. the judgment comes at the end of this "age". they are resurrected and judged and sent to the lake of fire (heck) to be tormented to pay for sins... then they are consumed as the bible says... yes he's judged here but will get their official judgment at the great white throne.



Let's say an unsaved person died 1500 years ago and has been in his grave 3000 years when Christ returns awaiting his judgement. Wouldn't his resurrection 3000 years later mean that he defeated death and sin for 3000 years?
Now if he was being tormented in Hades/Sheol, he wouldn't have defeated his torment but if he resurrects at a later date, then he has defeated death.
If he is in soul sleep in the grave, he has defeated punishment and death if he later resurrects. 
The logical or easier explanation would be if saints resurrect spiritually to everlasting life and reprobates die the 2nd death or spiritual death at their physical death.


----------



## gemcgrew

BAR308 said:


> the unsaved die and go to the grave cuz God said they are "reserved" for judgement. the judgment comes at the end of this "age". they are resurrected and judged and sent to the lake of fire (heck) to be tormented to pay for sins... then they are consumed as the bible says... yes he's judged here but will get their official judgment at the great white throne.


Let me see if I am understanding you here.

1. They satisfy the wrath of God for their sins.
2. Then they cease to exist.
3. Then they exist.


----------



## BAR308

Spotlite said:


> I think you are wrong but......if Jesus said it, then why question it? Parables or not, Jesus had no reason to hint, describe or even refer to anything of the nature if it didn't exist.
> 
> If this doesn't exist or only exist for a few fallen angels etc, why would it have to enlarge itself? Isaiah 5.
> 
> Based on your theory, if the lake of fire doesn't exist because Jesus only referred to in parables in a few places, what about Heaven? He spoke of Heaven many times in parables.



I NOwhere said that heck (lake of fire) does not exist. read the bible from cover to cover on hades/sheol (grave) and LOF (heck).... and rightly divide. 

what was Jesus saying when He used the word 'heck'?

The KJV translates Strongs G1067 in the following manner: 
heck (9x), heck fire (with G4442) (3x).
Outline of Biblical Usage
heck(LOF) is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; A FIT SYMBOL of the wicked and their future destruction.

did you READ that?? A FIT SYMBOL... if you believe what Jesus said about heck literally then all the unsaved go to the valley of hinnom... do you REALLY believe that all the unsaved go to a literal place south of Jerusalem? 

please explain to me this:

Revelation 20:14 
And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND DEATH, even the lake of fire.

Please explain how a person can die the 2nd death in the LOF (heck) AND AND AND live forever in a fiery furnace? please explain. you cant. nobody can. your soul cant be alive AND dead at the same time. everybody wants to argue FOR eternal torments... but none of you want to answer that question.


----------



## BAR308

gemcgrew said:


> Let me see if I am understanding you here.
> 
> 1. They satisfy the wrath of God for their sins.
> 2. Then they cease to exist.
> 3. Then they exist.



the unsaved die (the first death) and go to the grave (Acts 2:31) (hades / sheol) and they are 'reserved' unto judgement (great white throne - 2 Pet 2:4). they are judged based on their deeds and sent to the LOF (heck) and they will spend the time their necessary to pay for their sins. after that time has passed they will be consumed by the fire. (Job 22:20, Job 31:12, Isa 5:24, Ez 22:31, Psa 140:10, Matt 3:12, 2 Pet 3:10, Job 7:9, Job 33:21, Psa 37:20). they will become ashes as the word says (Ez 28:18, Mal 4:3, 2 Pet 2:6). and will DIE the 2nd death...


----------



## BAR308

Artfuldodger said:


> Let's say an unsaved person died 1500 years ago and has been in his grave 3000 years when Christ returns awaiting his judgement. Wouldn't his resurrection 3000 years later mean that he defeated death and sin for 3000 years?
> Now if he was being tormented in Hades/Sheol, he wouldn't have defeated his torment but if he resurrects at a later date, then he has defeated death.
> If he is in soul sleep in the grave, he has defeated punishment and death if he later resurrects.
> The logical or easier explanation would be if saints resurrect spiritually to everlasting life and reprobates die the 2nd death or spiritual death at their physical death.



before Jesus and the cross all dead souls went to the grave (hades) and they knew nothing there. Psa 6:3-5, 13:3, 115:17, 146:4, Ecc 9:5-6, Isa 38:18-19. the unsaved dead still go there as they are 'reserved' for judgment. the saints that die go to be with the Lord...

it makes more sense that a wicked man from 3000 years ago be dead in the grave and wicked man from 1000 years ago is also dead in the grave waiting for the judgement.  no they didnt defeat anything. they are resurrected to judgment and their fate is destruction based on their deeds.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Spotlite said:


> BTW, "contempt" in That scripture refers to abhorrence. Contempt has many synonyms, so does abhorrence. Describing excitement or fear. Something everlasting in fear is certainly not sounding like a place of quick death. But you've been shown many scripture, it's obvious that scripture alone is not going to help you since you have an way of explaining it all away. Just keep studying and plan not to go to dump, hot place, hades, lake of fire etc.


My original point is that unless you take your NT beliefs back in time to the OT period, no one in that OT period would interpret those few verses as an eternal punishment. It would just be seen as God's wrath, that of destruction.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Bible context is that man was created eternal like the angels but because of his sin he was cursed to be mortal. Time began. Man did not "surely die" right then but began dieing, began ageing, became mortal. The only way to fix this is to give him a new Spirit. The Holy Spirit, which is an eternal Spirit. Those that have not received the Spirit die and their souls will be destroyed at judgement day in the fiery furnace created for the devil and his angels. They, the devil and his angels, will not be destroyed since they are eternal beings.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

BAR308 said:


> there is NO hint of eternal conscious torment anywhere in the bible except for a few parables that Jesus spoke... using the valley of hinnom (gehenna) as figurative speech... but most folks wont see this as they wont take the time to study it out.... they just blindly follow their preachers no matter what they say that goes against the bible


I studied this topic for several years before changing my long held traditions. LOL, I am still in the closet on this. My rather large religious family would, if they knew my belief on this, would never stop preaching to me. You mention, "few parables", my remembrance is that only one exist that can't be explained. That parable of Lazurus. If one comes to mind other than this, could you point it out. I have always stated that only one verse in the bible exist that looks like a modern he11.


----------



## marketgunner

1gr8bldr said:


> Bible context is that man was created eternal like the angels but because of his sin he was cursed to be mortal. Time began. Man did not "surely die" right then but began dieing, began ageing, became mortal. The only way to fix this is to give him a new Spirit. The Holy Spirit, which is an eternal Spirit. Those that have not received the Spirit die and their souls will be destroyed at judgement day in the fiery furnace created for the devil and his angels. They, the devil and his angels, will not be destroyed since they are eternal beings.



The spirit/soul of man is eternal. The flesh is not and never was. Man did surely die. He lost the innocence of the sinless physical world. Sin was here in the spiritual world and then because of Adam the physical world.
CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored was prepared for the devil and his angels, so why is a man going to be sent there? The soul/spirit of man is eternal, as well?
Jesus called the Jews trying to kill him "elohyim" quoting Psalms 82.  elohyim is this verse is 'heavenly host"

Figure it out and you will see the eternal death as separation from God we as sinful spiritual beings have in store for us.


----------



## Spotlite

BAR308 said:


> I NOwhere said that heck (lake of fire) does not exist. read the bible from cover to cover on hades/sheol (grave) and LOF (heck).... and rightly divide.
> 
> what was Jesus saying when He used the word 'heck'?
> 
> The KJV translates Strongs G1067 in the following manner:
> heck (9x), heck fire (with G4442) (3x).
> Outline of Biblical Usage
> heck(LOF) is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; A FIT SYMBOL of the wicked and their future destruction.
> 
> did you READ that?? A FIT SYMBOL... if you believe what Jesus said about heck literally then all the unsaved go to the valley of hinnom... do you REALLY believe that all the unsaved go to a literal place south of Jerusalem?
> 
> please explain to me this:
> 
> Revelation 20:14
> And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND DEATH, even the lake of fire.
> 
> Please explain how a person can die the 2nd death in the LOF (heck) AND AND AND live forever in a fiery furnace? please explain. you cant. nobody can. your soul cant be alive AND dead at the same time. everybody wants to argue FOR eternal torments... but none of you want to answer that question.



Somehow, somewhere you have to grasp the concept of a physical death and a spiritual death. Physically dead means you stop breathing. Spiritual death is to be without Jesus Christ.

Your flesh is either going to rot away in a grave somewhere, or its going to be changed from corruptible to incorruptible during the Rapture and you will "put on a new body"......... 

Your soul never dies no matter where it spends eternity. 

Now, if you do read the entire Bible within context and stop mixing translations, or trying to explain a word away......

The Bible is very clear on this from front to back when it comes to the soul, death, second death, judgement, etc.

Your flesh has no place in Heaven or he11


----------



## Artfuldodger

Spotlite said:


> Your flesh has no place in Heaven or he11



What about the resurrection explained in John 5? Do the souls of saints and reprobates return to the earth for this resurrection?


----------



## Artfuldodger

marketgunner said:


> The spirit/soul of man is eternal. The flesh is not and never was. Man did surely die. He lost the innocence of the sinless physical world. Sin was here in the spiritual world and then because of Adam the physical world.
> CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored was prepared for the devil and his angels, so why is a man going to be sent there? The soul/spirit of man is eternal, as well?
> Jesus called the Jews trying to kill him "elohyim" quoting Psalms 82.  elohyim is this verse is 'heavenly host"
> 
> Figure it out and you will see the eternal death as separation from God we as sinful spiritual beings have in store for us.



I thought there was lot's of biblical ideals based on the fact that Adam was made immortal? Didn't sin make Adam mortal and this is why we needed a Savior in the form of a man?


----------



## Spotlite

Artfuldodger said:


> What about the resurrection explained in John 5? Do the souls of saints and reprobates return to the earth for this resurrection?



Every soul, either saved or unsaved will stand before God at judgement, weather they're dead now or still alive at the time of the Rapture. 
Matter of fact, the dead in Christ shall rise first


----------



## Artfuldodger

BAR308 said:


> before Jesus and the cross all dead souls went to the grave (hades) and they knew nothing there. Psa 6:3-5, 13:3, 115:17, 146:4, Ecc 9:5-6, Isa 38:18-19. the unsaved dead still go there as they are 'reserved' for judgment. the saints that die go to be with the Lord...
> 
> it makes more sense that a wicked man from 3000 years ago be dead in the grave and wicked man from 1000 years ago is also dead in the grave waiting for the judgement.  no they didnt defeat anything. they are resurrected to judgment and their fate is destruction based on their deeds.



It sounds like you are saying only the dead unbelievers are in their grave awaiting a future judgement. Is that what John 5:28-29 says? Where are the dead saints? Will they return to the grave to hear Christ's voice?

If the dead unbelievers are soul sleeping to be awakened at a later date, then they aren't really dead. At least not their 2nd death. They have temporarily escaped the 2nd death and their fate. 
Most people believe the Saints get their rewards right away at their physical death as their spirit never dies. Now if the unbelievers are sleeping in the ground then their spirit has died to be given life again by Christ at their future resurrection.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

marketgunner said:


> *The spirit/soul of man is eternal*. The flesh is not and never was. Man did surely die. He lost the innocence of the sinless physical world. Sin was here in the spiritual world and then because of Adam the physical world.
> CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored was prepared for the devil and his angels, so why is a man going to be sent there? The soul/spirit of man is eternal, as well?
> Jesus called the Jews trying to kill him "elohyim" quoting Psalms 82.  elohyim is this verse is 'heavenly host"
> 
> Figure it out and you will see the eternal death as separation from God we as sinful spiritual beings have in store for us.


This would be an interesting topic/debate if anyone would have time to lead it/keep it going


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Jesus having received the Holy Spirit of God, regained all that Adam lost. He received an eternal Spirit. The first recipient of the new covenant promise, the first"re"born from the dead having himself had to die because being a man, he also fell under the curse of "you will surely die", the firstborn of many brothers


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Spotlite said:


> Every soul, either saved or unsaved will stand before God at judgement, weather they're dead now or still alive at the time of the Rapture.
> Matter of fact, the dead in Christ shall rise first


Do you know where the rapture idea comes from?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Spotlite said:


> Every soul, either saved or unsaved will stand before God at judgement, weather they're dead now or still alive at the time of the Rapture.
> Matter of fact, the dead in Christ shall rise first



Then where is every soul of the dead awaiting this Judgement?
Hobbs, I need your avatar!


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## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> This would be an interesting topic/debate if anyone would have time to lead it/keep it going



I wonder where my spirit/soul was before I was born? I don't remember my spiritual life before I was born. Some folks do believe we have always existed but wouldn't that make us Gods?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Then where is every soul of the dead awaiting this Judgement?
> Hobbs, I need your avatar!



They sure make a mess of it, don't they?


----------



## Spotlite

1gr8bldr said:


> Do you know where the rapture idea comes from?


Idea?? The return of Jesus is the Rapture. When then the dead in Christ shall rise first?????



Artfuldodger said:


> Then where is every soul of the dead awaiting this Judgement?
> Hobbs, I need your avatar!



Some say the bosom of Abraham, some say asleep, some say nowhere.

I'm just leaving it to they're in Gods hands until that time. I don't get caught up in all that


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Spotlite said:


> Idea?? The return of Jesus is the Rapture. When then the dead in Christ shall rise first?????
> 
> 
> 
> Some say the bosom of Abraham, some say asleep, some say nowhere.
> 
> I'm just leaving it to they're in Gods hands until that time. I don't get caught up in all that


The Nt writers got this belief from looking at the OT. Specifically the flood. God will one day purge the earth again. Not by flood but as he says by fire. Those who were saved entered the Ark. They were "caught up" above the waters. The same "caught up" Paul uses. They were delived from the coming wrath. Christ is our "ark". Those "in" Christ will be saved.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> I wonder where my spirit/soul was before I was born? I don't remember my spiritual life before I was born. Some folks do believe we have always existed but wouldn't that make us Gods?


We pre existed "in word". God said and it was so. Everything was created "in word" during the six days. God has not created as he went, or along the way. This is where much confusion comes from regarding Christ's pre existence.


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## marketgunner

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought there was lot's of biblical ideals based on the fact that Adam was made immortal? Didn't sin make Adam mortal and this is why we needed a Savior in the form of a man?



He was only innocent.  His soul/spirit was already eternal(or could exist outside of time). 
We need a Saviour because we ARE sinners.  We are not sinners because of Adam. Sin entered the physical world through Adam. A way of sin, that we ,may or may not take part of, was constituted by Adam's sin. We are sinners enough , on our own.

Jeremiah 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

I cannot bear the sins of Adam, although I live in a sysyem of sin that started through him


----------



## BAR308

marketgunner said:


> The spirit/soul of man is eternal. The flesh is not and never was. Man did surely die. He lost the innocence of the sinless physical world. Sin was here in the spiritual world and then because of Adam the physical world.
> CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored was prepared for the devil and his angels, so why is a man going to be sent there? The soul/spirit of man is eternal, as well?
> Jesus called the Jews trying to kill him "elohyim" quoting Psalms 82.  elohyim is this verse is 'heavenly host"
> 
> Figure it out and you will see the eternal death as separation from God we as sinful spiritual beings have in store for us.



please show me one verse that says the soul of the Unsaved is immortal...  its not there. what IS there?

1 Corinthians 15:54 
But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and THIS MORTAL shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

ALL people have to PUT ON eternal life. from cover to cover of the Bible it says DEATH is the fate of all men... except for those who put on eternal life thru Jesus.

1 Timothy 6:16 
WHO (God) ONLY hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen

only God has immortality.. you are in disagreement with the Word


----------



## BAR308

Spotlite said:


> Your soul never dies no matter where it spends eternity.



you are in complete disagreement with the Word of God. the soul that sins must die. the soul is not eternal by itself. ALL souls WILL die because of sin.. only those who repent and place all faith in Jesus will avoid DEATH..  not eternal torments.  stop listening to your preacher and listen to the Bible.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


----------



## BAR308

Artfuldodger said:


> It sounds like you are saying only the dead unbelievers are in their grave awaiting a future judgement. Is that what John 5:28-29 says? Where are the dead saints? Will they return to the grave to hear Christ's voice?
> 
> If the dead unbelievers are soul sleeping to be awakened at a later date, then they aren't really dead. At least not their 2nd death. They have temporarily escaped the 2nd death and their fate.
> Most people believe the Saints get their rewards right away at their physical death as their spirit never dies. Now if the unbelievers are sleeping in the ground then their spirit has died to be given life again by Christ at their future resurrection.



the unsaved dead are in sheol/hades awaiting judgement. they are not in torments. they know nothing. Jesus did not change that. their fate is the grave awaiting the return of Jesus and the great white throne judgment. they will be resurrected to be judged. then thrown into the lof (heck) and they will pay for their sins based on how evil they were. they will be consumed.

Jesus told us the thief on the cross would be in paradise. so we know he wasnt going to the grave but to heaven. to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The Lord will return with his saints... so the saints have to be in heaven to return with Jesus.


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## Spotlite

1gr8bldr said:


> The Nt writers got this belief from looking at the OT. Specifically the flood. God will one day purge the earth again. Not by flood but as he says by fire. Those who were saved entered the Ark. They were "caught up" above the waters. The same "caught up" Paul uses. They were delived from the coming wrath. Christ is our "ark". Those "in" Christ will be saved.


Im not sure where you are getting your info from and what you're studying, but obviously you are already convinced of your theories


BAR308 said:


> you are in complete disagreement with the Word of God. the soul that sins must die. the soul is not eternal by itself. ALL souls WILL die because of sin.. only those who repent and place all faith in Jesus will avoid DEATH..  not eternal torments.  stop listening to your preacher and listen to the Bible.
> 
> Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


No Sir. The soul that dies, dies a spiritual death. Lake of fire. A body that quits breathing dies a physical death. 

I've been around long enough to know when the other poster is grabbing for straws because they make sarcastic comments like your last sentence of stop listening to the preacher. It's obvious your not wanting to debate or discuss, rather try to destroy and tear down everything else that others believe or doesn't believe. Either way, you are certainly incapable of carrying on an adult conversation about it.

Both if you should Matthew 25. Start at vs 41


----------



## hummerpoo

This might be a good spot to bump this post about Mat. 25:46 and add Dan. 12:2 which does the same thing.


hummerpoo said:


> Did not Matthew use the same word, in the same sentence, in the same context, under the same inspiration, to express the duration of the fate of both the righteous and the unrighteous?





Spotlite said:


> Physically dead means you stop breathing. Spiritual death is to be without Jesus Christ.



Yep, discerning (distinguishing) the physical and the spiritual is essential to understanding.


----------



## hobbs27

Spotlite said:


> Both if you should Matthew 25. Start at vs 41


 


<SUP class=versenum>41 </SUP>Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
<SUP class=versenum>42 </SUP>For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
<SUP class=versenum>43 </SUP>I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
<SUP class=versenum>44 </SUP>Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
<SUP class=versenum>45 </SUP>Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
<SUP class=versenum>46 </SUP>And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


The contrast here is an everlasting punishment vs life eternal. The greek word translated to everlasting here is also used in hebrews concerning judgment and translated as eternal in this version. 

6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

What this better means is irreversible. Everlasting..Eternal..Irreversible punishment, and it's in contrast to eternal life, so it means death.


----------



## welderguy

I find it very interesting how that so many  are skeptical about the physical resurrection of our bodies at Jesus' return.It's not hard to believe when you read Matt.27:52-53...just a thought.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I find it very interesting how that so many are skeptical about the physical resurrection of our bodies at Jesus' return.It's not hard to believe when you read Matt.27:52-53...just a thought.


 
 Those bodies physically resurrected while Christ was on the cross. { I know the text says after His resurrection} but that word resurrection is not the same word used in the rest of the bible concerning a death to life raising. That word means rousal, or excitability. So Christ was on the cross, not much going on , looking dead, then lifts His head { rousal, excitability} and shouts , My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me.

 Then the graves burst open, the veil of the temple was torn in two, and the earth did quake...Those hardened Roman soldiers feared and trembled at what they saw, no doubt the dead coming out of he grave that they knew, Surely this is the Son of God.

All that to point out Jesus was not the first to physically resurrect, but He is the firstfruits of something...That is Spiritual resurrection my friend. Adam died {spiritually} the day he took of the fruit in the garden. God told him, in the day..God does not lie, Adam was cast out of the garden where he dwelled with God[ Spiritual death is separation from God] Death reigned from Adam to Moses...Catch that?  Abel was first to actually die, but Adam was the first to spiritually die...to Moses means throughout the old covenant. 
 Death no longer reigns for Christ has given us a substitutionary death.. We have the indwelling of the HS therefore God is in us and the curse of Adam is over, through Christ.


----------



## Spotlite

[/QUOTE]

What this better means is irreversible. Everlasting..Eternal..Irreversible punishment, and it's in contrast to eternal life, so it means death.[/QUOTE]



 Something that dies is certainly not everlasting or eternal.


----------



## hobbs27

> Something that dies is certainly not everlasting or eternal.


 
 Sure it is. Say, we give someone the death penalty and execute them. That punishment is everlasting, eternal, irreversible.


----------



## Spotlite

Physically yes. Spiritually no. You are still thinking carnally but ok. However y'all want to look at he11, I just hope no one here ever has to find out if last forever or 15 minutes.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> Sure it is. Say, we give someone the death penalty and execute them. That punishment is everlasting, eternal, irreversible.


This is where the better translation of "forever" is realized. Edit, the Hebrew . I need to see if this is or is not the same for the greek


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## marketgunner

1gr8bldr said:


> Jesus having received the Holy Spirit of God, regained all that Adam lost. He received an eternal Spirit. The first recipient of the new covenant promise, the first"re"born from the dead having himself had to die because being a man, he also fell under the curse of "you will surely die", the firstborn of many brothers



Be careful, Jesus never "received the Holy Ghost"


----------



## marketgunner

1gr8bldr said:


> Do you know where the rapture idea comes from?



Rev 4. and Romans 5:9

but if you knew who we are and our reason to be in this physical would , the answer would be obvious.  

Jesus can to seek and save that which was lost.


----------



## hobbs27

Where the rapture idea came from.? James Nelson Darby invented it in the 1830's and the lie was spread from there by the likes of CI Scofield which has produced more liars and false prophets like Hal Lindsey, Harold Camping, Tim LaHaye ,And John Hagee. 

God help them.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

marketgunner said:


> Be careful, Jesus never "received the Holy Ghost"


Acts 2;33

New International Version
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.


----------



## marketgunner

hobbs27 said:


> Where the rapture idea came from.? James Nelson Darby invented it in the 1830's and the lie was spread from there by the likes of CI Scofield which has produced more liars and false prophets like Hal Lindsey, Harold Camping, And John Hagee



no, Darby might have taught Dispensations which included the Pre-Millennial Rapture. 
The Rapture is clearly in Biblical teaching and is shown even in the type of the Children of Israel escaping the destruction in Egypt as a picture of the Church escaping the wrath to come upon the world.

 Rom 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
  Do the Redeemed suffer partial wrath or are we saved from all wrath?


----------



## marketgunner

1gr8bldr said:


> Acts 2;33
> 
> New International Version
> Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.



Jesus didn't receive the Holy Spirit  for Himself but sent the Comforter to us.

Notice it says the He received the Promise from the Father, the Holy Spirit which they now see  evidence of and hear.

The Comforter was sent by Jesus

Jhn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
 Jhn 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


The Comforter is for us, not Jesus.  

Actually Jesus said He would come and comfort us, as part of the Trinity and the Holy Spirit

Jhn 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


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## 1gr8bldr

marketgunner said:


> Jesus didn't receive the Holy Spirit  for Himself but sent the Comforter to us.
> 
> Notice it says the He received the Promise from the Father, the Holy Spirit which they now see  evidence of and hear.
> 
> The Comforter was sent by Jesus
> 
> Jhn 15:26
> But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
> Jhn 14:16
> And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
> 
> 
> The Comforter is for us, not Jesus.
> 
> Actually Jesus said He would come and comfort us, as part of the Trinity and the Holy Spirit
> 
> Jhn 14:18
> I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


Your trying to change what it clearly says. "he received", what, "the promised Holy Spirit". He was the first


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## 1gr8bldr

Jesus did not exactly "send" the comforter. Rather, after he accomplishes his work, the HS would come. This is pictured as the Spirit of God coming upon the temple... after Solomon had finished it. Recall these words? "It is finished"


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## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> no, Darby might have taught Dispensations which included the Pre-Millennial Rapture.
> The Rapture is clearly in Biblical teaching and is shown even in the type of the Children of Israel escaping the destruction in Egypt as a picture of the Church escaping the wrath to come upon the world.
> 
> Rom 5:9
> Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
> Do the Redeemed suffer partial wrath or are we saved from all wrath?


 
The children of Israel escaping Egypt {where they were in bondage} and being led by Moses is not a rapture shadow or type. It's nothing like a rapture, there's nothing like a rapture in the ot, and none of the church fathers ever taught rapture and didn't even know what a rapture was. 

Look, The chidren of Israel being led out of bondage by Moses, is a shadow of the new kingdom that has come!

 Jesus led the lost sheep of Israel out of bondage of the law, and into the promised land of His kingdom of grace.


----------



## marketgunner

1gr8bldr said:


> Jesus did not exactly "send" the comforter. Rather, after he accomplishes his work, the HS would come. This is pictured as the Spirit of God coming upon the temple... after Solomon had finished it. Recall these words? "It is finished"



Jesus said:

Jhn 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


----------



## marketgunner

hobbs27 said:


> The children of Israel escaping Egypt {where they were in bondage} and being led by Moses is not a rapture shadow or type. It's nothing like a rapture, there's nothing like a rapture in the ot, and none of the church fathers ever taught rapture and didn't even know what a rapture was.
> 
> Look, The chidren of Israel being led out of bondage by Moses, is a shadow of the new kingdom that has come!
> 
> Jesus led the lost sheep of Israel out of bondage of the law, and into the promised land of His kingdom of grace.



Jesus delivered us from sin by completing the Law. His purpose was not to remove the bondage of the Law. It happened to be accomplished while paying the price for our sin.

I am delivered from sin, The Law never was intended for me or you anyway.

Bondage in Egypt is type of bondage of sin in this world. Moses led the Israelites not to a new kingdom but the Promised land , or the type of Christian life restored to fellowship with God. 

 Your right deliverance is Grace. Grace is extended to all but only those who believed and placed the blood on the doorpost were delivered. Only the true  alive believers will be raptured from the world. Removed from the world to the Promised land , a different land a new beginning . 


The church is a "called out assembly"   "ekklesia" so is Israel

Hos 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

But these verse speak of a sudden departure of Believers

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

  The Calling out

 1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


 1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> I find it very interesting how that so many  are skeptical about the physical resurrection of our bodies at Jesus' return.It's not hard to believe when you read Matt.27:52-53...just a thought.



What is God's purpose for our physical resurrection if the 2nd death is spiritual? If everything after our physical death is spiritual and our souls still exist enjoying our everlasting life with God and Jesus? If the souls of the dead reprobates are already being tormented with heat and thirst? If our souls have never died then why do we need a physical resurrection? Haven't all of the dead's souls already been judged otherwise all the souls of the dead would be in the same place awaiting their judgement? They would have already been divided into sheep and goats. Why repeat our spiritual resurrection which appears to work ok with a later physical resurrection?

The only logical explanation to the resurrection in John 5 being physical is if we are soul sleeping. If it's only one resurrection of our soul and body at the same time. Then we can all be judged once. The other way with a spiritual resurrection and then a later physical resurrection is confusing. Being judged as a spirit and then again later as a physical person isn't logical.


----------



## alvishere

gemcgrew said:


> According to Paul, this places you in the camp of non-Christians. Paul clearly explains this in 1 Corinthians 2.
> 
> "But we have the mind of Christ".


    you missed my point....I understand the Words that Paul talks about.......but we cannot fantom how bad heii may be Or how Wonderful Heaven is....
    I can assure you I am a believer in Christ and not only that,  I have accepted him as my Personal Saviour.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Where is God now?

does the Bible teach, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor, 5:8

Seems to me that believers have a first class ticket straight into heaven.


----------



## BAR308

Spotlite said:


> No Sir. The soul that dies, dies a spiritual death. Lake of fire. A body that quits breathing dies a physical death.
> 
> I've been around long enough to know when the other poster is grabbing for straws because they make sarcastic comments like your last sentence of stop listening to the preacher. It's obvious your not wanting to debate or discuss, rather try to destroy and tear down everything else that others believe or doesn't believe. Either way, you are certainly incapable of carrying on an adult conversation about it.
> 
> Both if you should Matthew 25. Start at vs 41



Im just sharing Scripture bro... not my fault you reject it. like i said in post #1... some folks will see this and other wont...  im still waiting on you to answer my question.. the soul that goes to heck burns forever... in your opinion. how is that 'death'? the dictionary says that is eternal 'life'... not eternal death like the bible says.


----------



## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> Where is God now?
> 
> does the Bible teach, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor, 5:8
> 
> Seems to me that believers have a first class ticket straight into heaven.


Yes!!!!!


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> <SUP class=versenum>41 </SUP>Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
> <SUP class=versenum>42 </SUP>For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
> <SUP class=versenum>43 </SUP>I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
> <SUP class=versenum>44 </SUP>Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
> <SUP class=versenum>45 </SUP>Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
> <SUP class=versenum>46 </SUP>And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
> 
> 
> The contrast here is an everlasting punishment vs life eternal. The greek word translated to everlasting here is also used in hebrews concerning judgment and translated as eternal in this version.
> 
> 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
> 
> What this better means is irreversible. Everlasting..Eternal..Irreversible punishment, and it's in contrast to eternal life, so it means death.



Reflect and deflect, filter and fumble, and it's still the same:



> ...duration of the fate of both the righteous and the unrighteous?


----------



## Spotlite

BAR308 said:


> Im just sharing Scripture bro... not my fault you reject it. like i said in post #1... some folks will see this and other wont...  im still waiting on you to answer my question.. the soul that goes to heck burns forever... in your opinion. how is that 'death'? the dictionary says that is eternal 'life'... not eternal death like the bible says.



Your question can't be answered until you can fully understand (in biblical terms) the difference in a physical and spiritual death.

I respect your ideas and opinions but will not waiver from mine, nor have mine belittled. It's not my place to prove anything to you anyway, if you lack understanding, scripture says ask for it. Only God can reveal these things to you, and only if you are honestly seeking the truth. The only thing I can do is point to scriptures.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Spotlite said:


> Your question can't be answered until you can fully understand (in biblical terms) the difference in a physical and spiritual death.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I think we all could use a refresher on this as it is often mentioned. I think I understand the difference but not what happens when such as the resurrection is concerned. Doesn't the reprobate die both a physical and spiritual death while the believer dies only a physical death?
> 
> Is the second death the same as the spiritual death? After the second death even "death" will go into the Lake of Fire. That pretty much sounds like the "end" of everyone that doesn't receive everlasting life.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Related to physical and spiritual death, is there also a physical and spiritual/soul resurrection? If so what happens at the two different resurrections such as judgement, torment, rewards, etc.? 
Does spiritual/soul  resurrection happen at physical death?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Now if Christ ascended in a human body then he will or did return in a human body. This would mean Heaven is physical but Paradise is spiritual. Jesus is physically sitting at the right hand of God in his own body containing his own soul/spirit separate from his Father.  
The physical aspects of the afterlife kinda gets in the way of a lot of things. It makes the line from A to B even more crooked, dying and spiritually going to Paradise to return to earth for a body needed to eventually go to Heaven. We can see Jesus there but not God as God is a Spirit. Unless Jesus is God and then we can only see God as Jesus. Yet Jesus is a man with his own body and his own soul/spirit. See how confusing the physical is?


----------



## Spotlite

Artfuldodger said:


> Related to physical and spiritual death, is there also a physical and spiritual/soul resurrection? If so what happens at the two different resurrections such as judgement, torment, rewards, etc.?
> Does spiritual/soul  resurrection happen at physical death?



Read 1 Corinthians 15. Start somewhere around verse 50


----------



## hobbs27

Spotlite said:


> Read 1 Corinthians 15. Start somewhere around verse 50



If you truly want to know about the resurrection in which Paul referred to as the hope of Israel...You need to start in Genesis.

And spend some extra time in Hosea, and pay special attention to how Hosea and 1 Peter play out.


----------



## M80




----------



## BAR308

Spotlite said:


> Your question can't be answered until you can fully understand (in biblical terms) the difference in a physical and spiritual death.
> 
> I respect your ideas and opinions but will not waiver from mine, nor have mine belittled. It's not my place to prove anything to you anyway, if you lack understanding, scripture says ask for it. Only God can reveal these things to you, and only if you are honestly seeking the truth. The only thing I can do is point to scriptures.



"spiritual death" is not in the bible. its a creation of your own mind. the soul that sins must die... but you say "Nooooooo... the soul that sins must burn forever in a fiery furnace". your 'belief' contradicts Scripture. but you are not looking for truth... just to argue. so have a nice day.


----------



## gemcgrew

BAR308 said:


> they will spend the time their necessary to pay for their sins. after that time has passed they will be consumed by the fire.



If they pay for their sins, why are they then consumed(if by consumed, you mean cease to exist)? Would you consider consumed to be an additional punishment after full payment for their sins?

Also, in your view, was Christ punished for their sins as well?

Two or three payments for the same offense?

Where would one find this type of justice in the Bible?


----------



## hobbs27

Gem , I don't believe their sins are paid by torments, I've read some folks think that but there's only One that has paid for the sins.

I wonder though, do you believe Christ paid for the sins of the reprobate? Would belief in that lead to Universalism?


----------



## Mako22

BAR308 said:


> Most Christians believe that our Lord will take ALL people who fail to "get saved" for whatever reason.. will be tormented by their Creator for all of eternity. But is that what the Bible teaches? No. The "church" has misunderstood a few verses that Jesus spoke about eternal torments. From cover to cover of the Bible... God has given mankind the offer to choose life or death... not a fiery furnace that torments them forever. I will say that i believe there is a fiery furnace that will punish the wicked for their evils... but they will be consumed in the fire just as the Bible says... and they will be "no more" just as the Bible says.
> 
> This post is not to argue or debate back and forth. Its for the Elect who have ears to hear but yet have not studied out this doctrine and been delivered from a doctrine of demons.
> 
> Check out these verses:
> Here’s what the Bible says, and precisely why I have argued that if one were to read the Bible without preexisting ideas of traditional eternal torments, one would not walk away believing in it. Here’s the list:
> 
> Psalm 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish”
> If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe the ungodly perish at all– but live forever in fiery torments. You CANNOT be dead AND alive in torments.
> 
> Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”
> If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe the wicked will be “consumed.” Instead, they believe the wicked and tortured and never consumed.
> 
> Psalm 69:28 says that the wicked are “blotted out of the book of the living.”
> This continues the consistency of scripture which tells us the wicked die– not that they are eternally living in a conscious furnace.
> 
> Ps. 34:16, 21 “evil brings death to the wicked.”
> Of course, if one believes in eternal torments, one doesn’t believe that evil brings death at all, but brings life– in a furnace.
> 
> Psalm 92:7 “… shall be destroyed forever.”
> If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe those who are lost are “destroyed” but again, that they live forever.
> 
> Prov. 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.”
> To believe in eternal conscious torments means one believes they will not be snuffed out at all.
> 
> Dan. 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.”
> This continues the theme of totally destroyed– there’s not a trace of the wicked. This is the opposite of eternal life in the furnace.
> 
> Isa. 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.”
> Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“
> 
> This speaks to ceasing to exist– not eternal life in flames. In the traditional view it will not be “as if they had never been” because they’ll live eternally and still “be alive.”
> 
> Mal 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.”
> 
> Here God is quoted directly– the evildoers are destroyed like straw thrown into the fire, and nothing is left. This shows total annihilation (they no longer exist). To believe in eternal torments, one would have to argue that God was mistaken and that they aren’t destroyed in the fire at all– but live forever in the fire without being consumed, which is the exact opposite of what God claimed.
> 
> Eternal torments is NOT in the Old Testament. Instead, they believed that the wicked are destroyed– that they die and do not get resurrected to eternal life. This is the testimony of the whole of scripture. To believe in eternal conscious fiery furnace is to really be at odds with the terminology we see scripture use. These same claims of annihilation and destruction continue in the New Testament:
> 
> Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in eternal flames.”
> Here Jesus himself teaches against eternal torments– saying that those who are lost experience the death of their soul (which is their life). If one believes in eternal conscious flames, they believe Jesus was wrong on this point, and that souls don’t die at all, but will live forever in flames.
> 
> John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish (die).”
> Again, to believe in eternal flames, one must believe Jesus was wrong in John 3:16 and that people don’t “perish” at all, but live forever in eternal flames.
> 
> Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction (death)“
> Jesus in his warnings continues with the repetitive testimony of scripture: the consequence of rejecting reconciliation with God is destruction– not everlasting life in torment.
> 
> Jesus on a variety of occasions uses the metaphor of fire that consumes not tortures: Matt. 7:19; 13:40; John 15:6
> 
> Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“
> There’s that pesky word “destroyed” again. Those who believe in eternal flames don’t believe one is destroyed in eternal flames, but lives there forever. You cant be DEAD and ALIVE at the same time... If you believe this then please explain how a person can be dead or destroyed AND also alive in eternal flames...
> 
> 2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …”
> Getting repetitive yet? Seems like the Bible is getting pretty clear that the consequence of rejecting God is destruction, not eternal life in eternal flames.
> 
> 1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person”
> There’s that word again that doesn’t mean tortured in eternal flames, but just means what it says– destroyed.
> 
> 2 Cor 2:15-16: “those that perish“
> Again, if Paul meant eternal flames, he should have said it– seems like all Cristians always talk about eternal flames... and not death or destruction.
> 
> Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“
> Growing up we’re taught that the “wages of sin is eternal flames” but nope– it’s perishing, dying, being destroyed.. the opposite of eternal life in eternal flames.
> 
> Hebrews 10:39 “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”
> Another version of the same term… destroyed.
> 
> James 4:12 “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”
> Seems like every biblical author wants us to understand to be “destroyed” is the natural consequence… there is NO writer in the Bible (accept for Jesus) to mention anything about eternal flames... maybe what Jesus spoke was in Parables... and not to be taken literally.
> 
> Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death…”
> Those who believe in eternal conscious eternal flames don’t believe in the second death– they believe everyone is immortal, and that some will live forever in eternal flames.
> 
> Rev 20:14 is clear that they die– they don’t live forever in eternal flames at all.
> 
> Look at this:
> Jude 7
> 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example (to the wicked)  suffering the punishment of ETERNAL FIRE.
> 
> What was "eternal" in this passage? was the fire eternal OR the punishment? well, the punishment was eternal not the fire even tho it says "eternal fire"... Why? because sodom is NOT still burning today but yet the punishment (death or destruction) is eternal... So when Jesus DID mention eternal fire He was saying that the punishment would be eternal... the death or destruction was eternal not the fire itself. the wicked will be like sodom... destroyed... to cease to exist. dead. gone. but NOT burning forever...
> 
> Revelation 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
> 
> What happens when their is a death? do people continue on living? No, they are DEAD. plain and simple. Whats the first death? when we die our normal death. The second death is when we die again and are consumed in the fire and destroyed for good.
> 
> So for the Elect who have ears to hear... i hope you can see this. Its a great relief when God delivers us from false teachings and traditions of men... much peace!



Sounds like more lies from the evil JW cult!


----------



## Artfuldodger

Woodsman69 said:


> Sounds like more lies from the evil JW cult!



Is everyone ill informed evil? What about Oneness believers or people who believe the resurrection is spiritual? People that believe in soul sleep? people who believe in the Rapture?

Paul clearly explains in 1 Corinthians 2;

"But we have the mind of Christ". 

Wow, what happened?


----------



## Spotlite

BAR308 said:


> "spiritual death" is not in the bible. its a creation of your own mind. the soul that sins must die... but you say "Nooooooo... the soul that sins must burn forever in a fiery furnace". your 'belief' contradicts Scripture. but you are not looking for truth... just to argue. so have a nice day.




??? I don't believe I have argued about anything 

Have you ignored Ephesians 2? Here it speaks about spiritual death. Dead in sins, dead in trespass.

If there's no spiritual death as you say, did these folks that were dead in sin become physically undead when they were saved?

Again, spiritual death is to be separated from and without God.
I stand by conclusion for answering your question, until you can grasp and understand the difference between a spiritual death and a physical death, you will not get an answer that you will accept.
Either way, have a nice day as well.


----------



## Madman

Artfuldodger said:


> Then where is every soul of the dead awaiting this Judgement?
> Hobbs, I need your avatar!



Not sure where, but we know that they are.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to he11, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Madman said:


> Not sure where, but we know that they are.
> 
> 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to he11, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.



Does verse 9 refer to a holding place after reprobates physical death? If so then after their judgment they will be burned to ashes.(verse 6, Sodom is gone, burnt to ashes)
What happens to the reprobates soul during this time in the holding place? Is it just reprobates that go to a holding place or all souls? I can understand all the souls being in a holding place and/or just reprobates being in a holding place as souls in a spiritual world. What's confusing is the return from this holding place for a physical body for the judgment. Maybe a body is needed for the literal burning to ashes.


----------



## swampstalker24

This thread is a perfect example of what turns most people  away from organized religions......  

Here we have a group of people, who all claim to follow the same religon, but can't even agree on whether or not heII exists... one of the fundamentals of the faith.


----------



## centerpin fan

swampstalker24 said:


> This thread is a perfect example of what turns most people  away from organized religions......



Most people turn away from organized religion because they don't want to repent.  Then, they use threads like this to rationalize their decision.


----------



## centerpin fan

swampstalker24 said:


> Here we have a group of people, who all claim to follow the same religon, but can't even agree on whether or not heII exists... one of the fundamentals of the faith.



Human beings disagree on a lot of things.


----------



## Spotlite

swampstalker24 said:


> This thread is a perfect example of what turns most people  away from organized religions......
> 
> Here we have a group of people, who all claim to follow the same religon, but can't even agree on whether or not heII exists... one of the fundamentals of the faith.



be careful, even the Westboro Baptist that protest everything, "claim" to be Christian. 

And the Black Panthers claim every white is racist. Painting with a broad brush does have its faults


----------



## hobbs27

swampstalker24 said:


> Here we have a group of people, who all claim to follow the same religon, but can't even agree on whether or not heII exists... one of the fundamentals of the faith.




Scripture to support this claim please...


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Gem , I don't believe their sins are paid by torments, I've read some folks think that but there's only One that has paid for the sins.
> 
> I wonder though, do you believe Christ paid for the sins of the reprobate?


No


hobbs27 said:


> Would belief in that lead to Universalism?


I believe it would have to if one is consistent in their theology.


----------



## BAR308

gemcgrew said:


> If they pay for their sins, why are they then consumed(if by consumed, you mean cease to exist)? Would you consider consumed to be an additional punishment after full payment for their sins?
> 
> Also, in your view, was Christ punished for their sins as well?
> 
> Two or three payments for the same offense?
> 
> Where would one find this type of justice in the Bible?



i cant say i understand all your questions but will give it my best shot.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

eternal punishMENT would be "death". eternal punishING would be eternal torments.
no i dont see as being consumed as an additional punishment as the person is dead and does not know anything when they are dead. punishMENT would come before being consumed.

Christ was the sacrifice for the whole world but especially those who believe as the Word says.

the entire Bible speaks of the unsaved soul dying, perdition, death, destruction, etc... it does NOT speak of the soul going to eternal torments.  even Jesus did NOT teach eternal conscious torments... if He did then He was confused as He taught DEATH as the fate of the unsaved...

Matthew 15:4 For God said, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, He that speaketh evil of father or mother, let him die the death.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of DEATH (not eternal torments) into life.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my word, he shall never see DEATH (this MUST be speaking of the eternal fate of the SOUL as ALL men ((bodies)) will see a natural death).

Romans 1:32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practice such things ARE WORTHY OF DEATH, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practice them. (this MUST be the eternal fate of the SOUL and not the body as ALL bodies die a natural death... the soul that sins must DIE)

Romans 5:21 that, as SIN REIGNED IN DEATH (NOT eternal torments), even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; WHETHER OF SIN UNTO DEATH (not eternal torments), or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:23 FOR THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH (not eternal torments) ; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 7:24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the BODY OF THIS DEATH? (not eternal torments)

i could go on and on.. i think you get the jist of this... the Bible teaches that the soul that sins... MUST DIE... not live forever in a fiery furnace.


----------



## BAR308

swampstalker24 said:


> This thread is a perfect example of what turns most people  away from organized religions......
> 
> Here we have a group of people, who all claim to follow the same religon, but can't even agree on whether or not heII exists... one of the fundamentals of the faith.



nobody is questioning whether heck exists... the question is does the dead remain there in eternal torments... or does the soul die in heck. thats the question.

you fought with your wife recently... why, you are one body and one flesh right? why did you argue?


----------



## BAR308

Woodsman69 said:


> Sounds like more lies from the evil JW cult!



its just Scripture. you got a problem with Scripture?


----------



## BAR308

Artfuldodger said:


> Is everyone ill informed evil? Wow, what happened?




to this "baptist" (woodsman) everyone ELSE is in a cult. thats the problem when you join a cult. everyone ELSE is in a cult if they are not in the same cult as you. smh. this is why i repented of being a 'baptist'.


----------



## hummerpoo

I may need to revisit 2Pet. 1:20.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> I may need to revisit 2Pet. 1:20.



Paul clearly explains in 1 Corinthians 2;

"But we have the mind of Christ". 

What happened to us all? I wonder if Paul was referring to Christ's human mind or his God mind?

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

What appearance of Christ will this be known? Does John contradict Paul?


----------



## gemcgrew

BAR308 said:


> i cant say i understand all your questions but will give it my best shot.
> 
> Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
> 
> eternal punishMENT would be "death". eternal punishING would be eternal torments.


Eternal punishment would be unending torment.


BAR308 said:


> no i dont see as being consumed as an additional punishment as the person is dead and does not know anything when they are dead. punishMENT would come before being consumed.


Fine. They make full payment for their sins and are then consumed. Why are they consumed if they paid in full? If they satisfied the wrath of God for their sins?


BAR308 said:


> Christ was the sacrifice for the whole world but especially those who believe as the Word says.


I know the verses that you are referring to and I do not believe that they are saying what you are understanding from them.


BAR308 said:


> i could go on and on.. i think you get the jist of this... the Bible teaches that the soul that sins... MUST DIE... not live forever in a fiery furnace.


I do understand what you are proposing. In order for me to hold to your understanding, I would have to be given a much lesser view of God than the one he has established with me. Especially in the matters of His holiness, justice, etc. Also regarding the person and work of Christ. See post #4.


----------



## hummerpoo

gemcgrew said:


> I do understand what you are proposing. In order for me to hold to your understanding, I would have to be given a much lesser view of God than the one he has established with me. Especially in the matters of His holiness, justice, etc. Also regarding the person and work of Christ. See post #4.





welderguy said:


> Do you really think Satan and his demons and all who would exalt themselves against an infinitly holy God will let them off so easily and passively? I know God is very compassionate and loving and forgiving and merciful.But to ignore His equally sovereign holy Lordship is totally one-sided.
> 
> I truly believe to get the full picture of God's love AND His wrath, one must examine thoroughly what really took place at the cross of Calvary.His wrath was poured out upon His Son in ways we cannot imagine with our little minds.Jesus bore that wrath in the place of the elect and in doing so He FOREVER excused the elect.But, there are those who are not excused.And His righteous judgement for that must be satisfied.
> 
> I know word studies are good.And some individual verses will sometimes seemingly mislead.BUT, we must carefully examine God's collective attributes to understand His complete purposes.God is love, but God also HATES evil.



Amen and Amen.

The context of all scripture is "In the beginning God ...".
"flesh and blood [does] not reveal this to you, but [your] Father who is in heaven."


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Paul clearly explains in 1 Corinthians 2;
> 
> "But we have the mind of Christ".
> 
> What happened to us all? I wonder if Paul was referring to Christ's human mind or his God mind?
> 
> 1 John 3:2
> Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
> 
> What appearance of Christ will this be known? Does John contradict Paul?



My statement was intended to facetiously reference, what I see as, some ridiculous interpretation of scripture.

As to your question; it appears to me that Paul and John are making the same point: what is "real" is that which is spiritual and eternal.  They are guiding us to the spiritual (which is made available to all believers), to the exclusion of that which is physical.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Is the eternal punishment awarded in various degrees? Not everyone in He11 has exalted themselves against an infinitely holy God. Some have just not received the Word or the calling, both or either. Some are there because they followed the religion of their parents. Some just didn't get elected but are righteous by their own religion"s standards such as Hindus.
He11 could have various compartments with different temperatures and flame levels. Perhaps a vary righteous Hindu would be in a low temperature compartment and an evil American who was aware of the infinitely holy God and chose to not follow him would be in a really hot compartment. Compartments could have higher and lower flames too.

The occupants might be divided up according to their levels of depravity from total to mildly depraved. Then the ones that God calls but are irresistible to his grace go in a really hot chamber.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> ... Not everyone in He11 has exalted themselves against an infinitely holy God. ...



We had an extended discussion about that a while back, centered around Romans 1.


----------



## BAR308

Artfuldodger said:


> Is the eternal punishment awarded in various degrees? Not everyone in He11 has exalted themselves against an infinitely holy God. Some have just not received the Word or the calling, both or either. Some are there because they followed the religion of their parents. Some just didn't get elected but are righteous by their own religion"s standards such as Hindus.
> He11 could have various compartments with different temperatures and flame levels. Perhaps a vary righteous Hindu would be in a low temperature compartment and an evil American who was aware of the infinitely holy God and chose to not follow him would be in a really hot compartment. Compartments could have higher and lower flames too.
> 
> The occupants might be divided up according to their levels of depravity from total to mildly depraved. Then the ones that God calls but are irresistible to his grace go in a really hot chamber.




Jesus said over and over... "according to your works". that would hold true to the unsaved as well. hitler will get far greater torments in heck (lof) then the little lady down the street that was a nice person but rejected Christ.

the false prophets will get a "greater condemnation" as Jesus said. some will be beaten with more 'stripes'. the Word clearly tells us that there are levels of condemnation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BAR308 said:


> Jesus said over and over... "according to your works". that would hold true to the unsaved as well. hitler will get far greater torments in heck (lof) then the little lady down the street that was a nice person but rejected Christ.
> 
> the false prophets will get a "greater condemnation" as Jesus said. some will be beaten with more 'stripes'. the Word clearly tells us that there are levels of condemnation.



I think Gem was hinting at this but what punishment is needed or given if the final outcome is death? Does scripture tell us what these degrees of punishments will be? Is it like death by hanging but after three years of hard labor?


----------



## gemcgrew

BAR308 said:


> Jesus said over and over... "according to your works". that would hold true to the unsaved as well. hitler will get far greater torments in heck (lof) then the little lady down the street that was a nice person but rejected Christ.
> 
> the false prophets will get a "greater condemnation" as Jesus said. some will be beaten with more 'stripes'. the Word clearly tells us that there are levels of condemnation.


There is no such thing as a "nice person but rejected Christ". This is an evil person.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> We had an extended discussion about that a while back, centered around Romans 1.



Are reprobates without excuse as Romans 1:20 explains? Is Romans 1:20 talking about reprobates in the whole wide world or the local world? I understand God can elect a Hindu or someone who hasn't heard the Word but is the far away Hindu as guilty as the local Jewish or Gentile who has heard but refuses to be elected? Can one refuse to be elected? 
If all reprobates are without excuse then one isn't totally depraved and grace is irresistible. 
It seems like there would be various degrees of guilt as Bar308 pointed out. Evil reprobates who refuse election vs righteous reprobates who happened to grow up in the wrong religion. 
If works aren't important in election then how are the various degrees of punishment important?


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Evil reprobates who refuse election vs righteous reprobates who happened to grow up in the wrong religion.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


>



I think you make a good point of not understanding a righteous reprobate. Christians aren't even righteous.

Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.


There is a lot of discussion on judging and punishment in this thread. If reprobates are depraved why are they punished?
There really isn't a righteous reprobate but some are more good than others by deeds only. All aren't this terrible evil person you are painting therefore are reprobates judged and punished at different degrees according to there works?
If God doesn't elect according to works then why does he punish and reward according to our works/deeds? 
Is it only saints that get various rewards and no punishments and do all reprobates receive the same punishment? 
Why are reprobates judged and punished if not for deeds?


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Are reprobates without excuse as Romans 1:20 explains?



Are you determining how you will divide the sheep and the goats?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Are you determining how you will divide the sheep and the goats?



No, just wondering if scripture tells us if there are various degrees of punishments. It's related to the OP in the discussion on souls and punishment.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> No, just wondering if scripture tells us if there are various degrees of punishments. It's related to the OP in the discussion on souls and punishment.



That has not been revealed to me.  I know what scripture says, but I don't understand what it means.  I can't conceive of degrees of being without God.  It's like having my whole body totally paralyzed and understanding which is worse, having my big toe amputated or having my little toe amputated.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

BAR308 said:


> Most Christians believe that our Lord will take ALL people who fail to "get saved" for whatever reason.. will be tormented by their Creator for all of eternity. But is that what the Bible teaches? No. The "church" has misunderstood a few verses that Jesus spoke about eternal torments. From cover to cover of the Bible... God has given mankind the offer to choose life or death... not a fiery furnace that torments them forever. I will say that i believe there is a fiery furnace that will punish the wicked for their evils... but they will be consumed in the fire just as the Bible says... and they will be "no more" just as the Bible says.
> 
> This post is not to argue or debate back and forth. Its for the Elect who have ears to hear but yet have not studied out this doctrine and been delivered from a doctrine of demons.
> 
> Check out these verses:
> Here’s what the Bible says, and precisely why I have argued that if one were to read the Bible without preexisting ideas of traditional eternal torments, one would not walk away believing in it. Here’s the list:
> 
> Psalm 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish”
> If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe the ungodly perish at all– but live forever in fiery torments. You CANNOT be dead AND alive in torments.
> 
> Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”
> If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe the wicked will be “consumed.” Instead, they believe the wicked and tortured and never consumed.
> 
> Psalm 69:28 says that the wicked are “blotted out of the book of the living.”
> This continues the consistency of scripture which tells us the wicked die– not that they are eternally living in a conscious furnace.
> 
> Ps. 34:16, 21 “evil brings death to the wicked.”
> Of course, if one believes in eternal torments, one doesn’t believe that evil brings death at all, but brings life– in a furnace.
> 
> Psalm 92:7 “… shall be destroyed forever.”
> If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe those who are lost are “destroyed” but again, that they live forever.
> 
> Prov. 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.”
> To believe in eternal conscious torments means one believes they will not be snuffed out at all.
> 
> Dan. 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.”
> This continues the theme of totally destroyed– there’s not a trace of the wicked. This is the opposite of eternal life in the furnace.
> 
> Isa. 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.”
> Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“
> 
> This speaks to ceasing to exist– not eternal life in flames. In the traditional view it will not be “as if they had never been” because they’ll live eternally and still “be alive.”
> 
> Mal 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.”
> 
> Here God is quoted directly– the evildoers are destroyed like straw thrown into the fire, and nothing is left. This shows total annihilation (they no longer exist). To believe in eternal torments, one would have to argue that God was mistaken and that they aren’t destroyed in the fire at all– but live forever in the fire without being consumed, which is the exact opposite of what God claimed.
> 
> Eternal torments is NOT in the Old Testament. Instead, they believed that the wicked are destroyed– that they die and do not get resurrected to eternal life. This is the testimony of the whole of scripture. To believe in eternal conscious fiery furnace is to really be at odds with the terminology we see scripture use. These same claims of annihilation and destruction continue in the New Testament:
> 
> Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in eternal flames.”
> Here Jesus himself teaches against eternal torments– saying that those who are lost experience the death of their soul (which is their life). If one believes in eternal conscious flames, they believe Jesus was wrong on this point, and that souls don’t die at all, but will live forever in flames.
> 
> John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish (die).”
> Again, to believe in eternal flames, one must believe Jesus was wrong in John 3:16 and that people don’t “perish” at all, but live forever in eternal flames.
> 
> Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction (death)“
> Jesus in his warnings continues with the repetitive testimony of scripture: the consequence of rejecting reconciliation with God is destruction– not everlasting life in torment.
> 
> Jesus on a variety of occasions uses the metaphor of fire that consumes not tortures: Matt. 7:19; 13:40; John 15:6
> 
> Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“
> There’s that pesky word “destroyed” again. Those who believe in eternal flames don’t believe one is destroyed in eternal flames, but lives there forever. You cant be DEAD and ALIVE at the same time... If you believe this then please explain how a person can be dead or destroyed AND also alive in eternal flames...
> 
> 2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …”
> Getting repetitive yet? Seems like the Bible is getting pretty clear that the consequence of rejecting God is destruction, not eternal life in eternal flames.
> 
> 1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person”
> There’s that word again that doesn’t mean tortured in eternal flames, but just means what it says– destroyed.
> 
> 2 Cor 2:15-16: “those that perish“
> Again, if Paul meant eternal flames, he should have said it– seems like all Cristians always talk about eternal flames... and not death or destruction.
> 
> Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“
> Growing up we’re taught that the “wages of sin is eternal flames” but nope– it’s perishing, dying, being destroyed.. the opposite of eternal life in eternal flames.
> 
> Hebrews 10:39 “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”
> Another version of the same term… destroyed.
> 
> James 4:12 “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”
> Seems like every biblical author wants us to understand to be “destroyed” is the natural consequence… there is NO writer in the Bible (accept for Jesus) to mention anything about eternal flames... maybe what Jesus spoke was in Parables... and not to be taken literally.
> 
> Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death…”
> Those who believe in eternal conscious eternal flames don’t believe in the second death– they believe everyone is immortal, and that some will live forever in eternal flames.
> 
> Rev 20:14 is clear that they die– they don’t live forever in eternal flames at all.
> 
> Look at this:
> Jude 7
> 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example (to the wicked)  suffering the punishment of ETERNAL FIRE.
> 
> What was "eternal" in this passage? was the fire eternal OR the punishment? well, the punishment was eternal not the fire even tho it says "eternal fire"... Why? because sodom is NOT still burning today but yet the punishment (death or destruction) is eternal... So when Jesus DID mention eternal fire He was saying that the punishment would be eternal... the death or destruction was eternal not the fire itself. the wicked will be like sodom... destroyed... to cease to exist. dead. gone. but NOT burning forever...
> 
> Revelation 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
> 
> What happens when their is a death? do people continue on living? No, they are DEAD. plain and simple. Whats the first death? when we die our normal death. The second death is when we die again and are consumed in the fire and destroyed for good.
> 
> So for the Elect who have ears to hear... i hope you can see this. Its a great relief when God delivers us from false teachings and traditions of men... much peace!



Lot of hoops to jump through in an attempt to disprove the obvious, but isn't that always the case.



Just curious, but if it's Gods will to punish those who reject him for eternity, just who exactly are you/we to open it up for a discussion and critique.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I think you make a good point of not understanding a righteous reprobate. Christians aren't even righteous.


Christians are made righteous by Christ.


Artfuldodger said:


> There is a lot of discussion on judging and punishment in this thread. If reprobates are depraved why are they punished?
> There really isn't a righteous reprobate but some are more good than others by deeds only. All aren't this terrible evil person you are painting therefore are reprobates judged and punished at different degrees according to there works?


God knows the inward condition. When an Atheist feeds the hungry, he is not doing it to honor God, but for some other reason. The intention is associated with the action.


----------



## BAR308

SemperFiDawg said:


> Lot of hoops to jump through in an attempt to disprove the obvious, but isn't that always the case.
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious, but if it's Gods will to punish those who reject him for eternity, just who exactly are you/we to open it up for a discussion and critique.



if you dont want to discuss it then dont discuss it. too many people for TOO long have been duped by the churches and have believed a lie. the devil is the tormentor not God. how does he torment? by teaching in the churches that all unsaved people go to conscious eternal torments. how does that torment? millions of people are tormented by this lie b/c we all have loved ones and friends that have died w/o Christ... and what do we believe?? that they will burn forever in pain. that is torment.  thats how he torments. lying to people about the eternal fate of billions of people. the devil is the tormentor... not God. but if God throw people in heck for eternity... then God is the king of all tormentors and no different than the devil.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BAR308 said:


> if you dont want to discuss it then dont discuss it. too many people for TOO long have been duped by the churches and have believed a lie. the devil is the tormentor not God. how does he torment? by teaching in the churches that all unsaved people go to conscious eternal torments. how does that torment? millions of people are tormented by this lie b/c we all have loved ones and friends that have died w/o Christ... and what do we believe?? that they will burn forever in pain. that is torment.  thats how he torments. lying to people about the eternal fate of billions of people. the devil is the tormentor... not God. but if God throw people in heck for eternity... then God is the king of all tormentors and no different than the devil.



When you really think about it, it is us who condemn ourselves. We put ourselves in He!!. We put ourselves in Heaven. We condemn ourselves or we save ourselves.
God doesn't really place one in punishment or everlasting death and neither does the devil, we do. God doesn't really save us from eternal death, we do by accepting his salvation plan. We get to choose.


----------



## gemcgrew

BAR308 said:


> if you dont want to discuss it then dont discuss it. too many people for TOO long have been duped by the churches and have believed a lie. the devil is the tormentor not God. how does he torment? by teaching in the churches that all unsaved people go to conscious eternal torments. how does that torment? millions of people are tormented by this lie b/c we all have loved ones and friends that have died w/o Christ... and what do we believe?? that they will burn forever in pain. that is torment.  thats how he torments. lying to people about the eternal fate of billions of people. the devil is the tormentor... not God. but if God throw people in heck for eternity... then God is the king of all tormentors and no different than the devil.


God is the King of all tormentors. This is his creation and he is the ruler of it. Only God is self-existent. The devil has no power of his own to act on his own. God actively causes the devil to exist and for a purpose.


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> God is the King of all tormentors. This is his creation and he is the ruler of it. Only God is self-existent. The devil has no power of his own to act on his own. God actively causes the devil to exist and for a purpose.



I agree with you on this. I think BAR308 has the correct outcome that there is no eternal torment, I just disagree with his way of getting there. To me it's quiet simple. If it existed it would be in the scriptures, and a not so hard look at the scriptures reveals two options. Eternal life, or perish in death. John 3:16.


----------



## BAR308

Artfuldodger said:


> When you really think about it, it is us who condemn ourselves. We put ourselves in He!!. We put ourselves in Heaven. We condemn ourselves or we save ourselves.
> God doesn't really place one in punishment or everlasting death and neither does the devil, we do. God doesn't really save us from eternal death, we do by accepting his salvation plan. We get to choose.



so we find salvation in ourselves and not Jesus? well isnt that antichrist?


----------



## SemperFiDawg

BAR308 said:


> but if God throw people in heck for eternity... then God is the king of all tormentors and no different than the devil.



Thank you.  Good summation.  Point made clear and concise, and thus the reason I reject it as heresy.  Sadly it's just another example of finite reasoning led by emotions redefining scripture and judging an infinitely Holy God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BAR308 said:


> so we find salvation in ourselves and not Jesus? well isnt that antichrist?



The salvation is from God in the form of his Son. I'm just asking what part of our destiny is ours? If I accept Christ's part, have I saved myself? If Satan does evil, is it God's control?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Powerpoint presentation of Heaven & He11;

http://devotionalnet.faithsite.com/uploads/147/95637.pdf


----------



## BAR308

SemperFiDawg said:


> Thank you.  Good summation.  Point made clear and concise, and thus the reason I reject it as heresy.  Sadly it's just another example of finite reasoning led by emotions redefining scripture and judging an infinitely Holy God.



Deuteronomy 30:19 ...I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live....

why are the HUNDREDS of verses just like the one above so hard for you to grasp? why does this verse NOT say "life and eternal torments"?

please explain to me how a soul can be dead AND alive in eternal torments... at the same time.

the bible says over and over... that the soul that sins MUST die... so thats what i am in agreement in and you call that 'heresy'? but you say that the soul that sins... must LIVE... in eternal torments... and you call me a heretic? hilarious.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> The salvation is from God in the form of his Son. I'm just asking what part of our destiny is ours?


All of it.


Artfuldodger said:


> If I accept Christ's part, have I saved myself?


If Christ only has a part in salvation, then yes.


Artfuldodger said:


> If Satan does evil, is it God's control?


Of course.


----------



## hawglips

Artfuldodger said:


> That's what I'm trying to decide. Where does the dead reprobates go between their first and second death? Where do they go between their physical death and their physical resurrection?



Jesus referred to "paradise" as the immediate place one of the thieves beside him on the cross would be going that day.

Peter taught that the gospel is preached to the dead still living in the spirit, and specifically that Christ went to teach the disobedient spirits in "prison" during the time between his death and resurrection.

Seems to be some segregation of the good and evil going on between the time of death and the resurrection.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hawglips said:


> Jesus referred to "paradise" as the immediate place one of the thieves beside him on the cross would be going that day.
> 
> Peter taught that the gospel is preached to the dead still living in the spirit, and specifically that Christ went to teach the disobedient spirits in "prison" during the time between his death and resurrection.
> 
> Seems to be some segregation of the good and evil going on between the time of death and the resurrection.



Did Christ dying on the Cross change anything as to where dead spirits go, good or bad? What good would teaching the Gospel do dead reprobates?
Dead disobedient saints in some type of limbo maybe but not dead reprobates might need a visit from the spirit of Jesus.

Do you believe the spirit of Jesus, that went to witness to these disobedient spirits, was his own spirit or God's spirit?
Was it the coequal, one third of the Godhead, always separate, and eternal spirit of Jesus, that has always been with his Father or the actual spirit of the Father or the spirit of the 100% man nature of Jesus?
The human spirit of Jesus, if he had one?


----------



## HighCotton

Hades is separation from God.

I believe that at death, a person will either be with God for eternity or (punished) without God for eternity.

We can debate all we want about what Hades or this punishment will be like.  It's all just theological meanderings.  The only point worth knowing is that Hades is without God.


----------



## hawglips

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you believe the spirit of Jesus, that went to witness to these disobedient spirits, was his own spirit or God's spirit?
> Was it the coequal, one third of the Godhead, always separate, and eternal spirit of Jesus, that has always been with his Father or the actual spirit of the Father or the spirit of the 100% man nature of Jesus?
> The human spirit of Jesus, if he had one?



The spirit of Jesus, Jehovah, I AM.


----------



## hobbs27

HighCotton said:


> Hades is separation from God.
> 
> I believe that at death, a person will either be with God for eternity or (punished) without God for eternity.
> 
> We can debate all we want about what Hades or this punishment will be like.  It's all just theological meanderings.  The only point worth knowing is that Hades is without God.



Well here's an argument you probably haven't heard. Hades and death have been cast into the lake of fire, so whatever Hades was, it is no more.


----------



## welderguy

HighCotton said:


> Hades is separation from God.
> 
> I believe that at death, a person will either be with God for eternity or (punished) without God for eternity.
> 
> We can debate all we want about what Hades or this punishment will be like.  It's all just theological meanderings.  The only point worth knowing is that Hades is without God.



Rom.5:9 tells what the just have been saved from, which is wrath.
Wrath seems a lot more than a mere separation.

Rom.5:9
"Much more then, being now justified by His blood,we shall be saved from wrath through Him."


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Rom.5:9 tells what the just have been saved from, which is wrath.
> Wrath seems a lot more than a mere separation.
> 
> Rom.5:9
> "Much more then, being now justified by His blood,we shall be saved from wrath through Him."



Let's continue into chapter 6;

Romans 6:23  For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


----------



## FMC

formula1 said:


> Just a thought here but wouldn't the spirit of a man be in eternal torment separated eternally from the Father of spirits?



Bingo


----------



## BAR308

nobody yet has explained how a soul can be dead AND alive (in fiery torments) at the same time. why dont we stop resisting the truth and embrace it. its ALL thru the bible

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and heck delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and heck were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

did you see that? "heck" gave up the DEAD that was in it.... and they were cast into the lake of fire which is the 2nd death. there is nothing here about eternal torments... ONLY DEATH.


----------



## welderguy

BAR308 said:


> nobody yet has explained how a soul can be dead AND alive (in fiery torments) at the same time. why dont we stop resisting the truth and embrace it. its ALL thru the bible
> 
> Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and heck delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
> 
> Revelation 20:14 And death and heck were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
> 
> did you see that? "heck" gave up the DEAD that was in it.... and they were cast into the lake of fire which is the 2nd death. there is nothing here about eternal torments... ONLY DEATH.



You just did a wonderful job of showing that there will be no more physical death or graves.
But you need to keep reading because that lake of fire is where the eternal spiritual death and torment will take place.And the smoke of their torment will ascend forever and ever there.
Can you wrap your mind around an eternal death.I know it's hard.Just like eternal life is hard to understand.But both are equally true, nonetheless.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> You just did a wonderful job of showing that there will be no more physical death or graves.
> But you need to keep reading because that lake of fire is where the eternal spiritual death and torment will take place.And the smoke of their torment will ascend forever and ever there.
> Can you wrap your mind around an eternal death.I know it's hard.Just like eternal life is hard to understand.But both are equally true, nonetheless.



Can you show how this is about physical death ending? If I remember correctly after all this takes place then the plan of salvation is revealed in CH. 22. Come take of the water of life freely.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Can you show how this is about physical death ending? If I remember correctly after all this takes place then the plan of salvation is revealed in CH. 22. Come take of the water of life freely.



Those things take place after the resurrection.Then there's the final judgement.Then the non-elect depart into everlasting punishment, along with satan and his demons and death(the grave).
Then the elect are invited to drink of the waters of life (eternal life).

That's the way I see it in Rev.20.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Those things take place after the resurrection.Then there's the final judgement.Then the non-elect depart into everlasting punishment, along with satan and his demons and death(the grave).
> Then the elect are invited to drink of the waters of life (eternal life).
> 
> That's the way I see it in Rev.20.



So who are the swindlers , liars and drunkards outside the gates, that the bride and the spirit are bidding, Come take of the water of life freely?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> So who are the swindlers , liars and drunkards outside the gates, that the bride and the spirit are bidding, Come take of the water of life freely?



The ones outside the gate are the non-elect.The same ones Jesus spoke of in John 10.
But the bride and the spirit are not bidding these to come.John 5:40 states they "will not come to me that they might have life".
The bride and the spirit are bidding those in vs.14.The ones that have right to the tree of life, the elect.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> The ones outside the gate are the non-elect.The same ones Jesus spoke of in John 10.
> But the bride and the spirit are not bidding these to come.John 5:40 states they "will not come to me that they might have life".
> The bride and the spirit are bidding those in vs.14.The ones that have right to the tree of life, the elect.



So the non elect are outside the gates. The righteous are inside the gates. Where are the , the non righteous elect that are being invited to take of the water of life?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> So the non elect are outside the gates. The righteous are inside the gates. Where are the , the non righteous elect that are being invited to take of the water of life?



There will be no "unrighteous elect".We have Jesus' imputed righteousness .(Rom.8:33)

The ones that will enter the gates(vs.14) are the elect, and they are the ones who drink of the water of life.(vs.17)


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> There will be no "unrighteous elect".We have Jesus' imputed righteousness .(Rom.8:33)
> 
> The ones that will enter the gates(vs.14) are the elect, and they are the ones who drink of the water of life.(vs.17)



I don't know. Looks to me as there is a free gift of salvation offered to whosoever will in verse 17.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I don't know. Looks to me as there is a free gift of salvation offered to whosoever will in verse 17.



None will come unless they are drawn by the Holy Spirit through regeneration.And the Holy Spirit only draws the elect.It was predestined before the foundation of the world.(Eph.1:4,Rom.9:11)


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> None will come unless they are drawn by the Holy Spirit through regeneration.And the Holy Spirit only draws the elect.It was predestined before the foundation of the world.(Eph.1:4,Rom.9:11)



So you agree that this is about salvation after Christ returns and the resurrection has taken place?


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> There will be no "unrighteous elect".We have Jesus' imputed righteousness .(Rom.8:33)
> 
> The ones that will enter the gates(vs.14) are the elect, and they are the ones who drink of the water of life.(vs.17)



Interesting concept but this imputed righteousness gives the chosen protection even before their regeneration. Chosen before birth but elected for regeneration years later in their lifetime.
These chosen, protected, elected reprobates are the "unrighteous elect" until they are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. I guess we are wondering how the chosen reprobates are protected from the time of their birth until they are filled with the Holy Spirit? Is this the imputed righteousness of Romans 8:33?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> So you agree that this is about salvation after Christ returns and the resurrection has taken place?



The things we were discussing from Rev.22 will happen in the future as a result of those things we were discussing in Eph.1 and Rom 9, which took place before creation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> The things we were discussing from Rev.22 will happen in the future as a result of those things we were discussing in Eph.1 and Rom 9, which took place before creation.



The "children of the promise?" Was all of Isaac's offspring elected? I'm trying to define who the unsaved will be that will either die or burn forever.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

BAR308 said:


> Deuteronomy 30:19 ...I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live....
> 
> why are the HUNDREDS of verses just like the one above so hard for you to grasp? why does this verse NOT say "life and eternal torments"?
> 
> please explain to me how a soul can be dead AND alive in eternal torments... at the same time.
> 
> the bible says over and over... that the soul that sins MUST die... so thats what i am in agreement in and you call that 'heresy'? but you say that the soul that sins... must LIVE... in eternal torments... and you call me a heretic? hilarious.



The truth is I said the view was heretical, but it appears such trivialities have been inconsequential in this discussion so far, so by all means 'Carry On.'


----------



## hobbs27

There is no doubt that after Jesus comes and the dead ones are resurrected that the church/Bride (which obviously is still here and not raptured away) and the Spirit will send out the invitation to {Whosoever will}  To partake in salvation!! 

 It seems to me this is where we are today, as a Church "inside the gates of the kingdom/garden" Spiritually, we are to say to the lost, Come, take of this salvation freely! 






Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Isaiah 55:1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.

1 Corinthians 10:4

 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 


John 4: 10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”

13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”


John 7:37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.

 Those lost on the outside of the gates are dogs, scorcerers, murderers, etc , etc.Rev. 22: 15
 Just like we once were.

1 Corinthians 6:10-11

 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.


 And here we are in a continual cycle of bidding people to take the gift of Christ and a continually growing kingdom ..forever and ever , Amen!


----------



## SemperFiDawg

BAR308 said:


> nobody yet has explained how a soul can be dead AND alive (in fiery torments) at the same time. why dont we stop resisting the truth and embrace it. its ALL thru the bible
> 
> Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and heck delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
> 
> Revelation 20:14 And death and heck were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
> 
> did you see that? "heck" gave up the DEAD that was in it.... and they were cast into the lake of fire which is the 2nd death. there is nothing here about eternal torments... ONLY DEATH.




I'm sorry, but didn't you skip a very significant verse....you know the verse that every critic of "Eternal Punishment" agrees is without a doubt, the ONE that seems the most insurmountable for the anniallationalist to attack?

Rev. 20:10

“The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Now the Beast may or may not be a person (depending on who you poll), but I think pretty much everyone concedes  "the false prophet IS , and if he is going to be thrown into the lake of fire and tormented day and night forever and ever, and if everyone else who's name isn't written in book of life is going to the same place the most common sense inference is that their punishment will be the same.

Regarding this point:  Each and every argument I've ever heard for anniallationalism ( and some were by very brilliant men), when it came to this point, every one of them threw either up their hands and said "So What? Big Deal," or offered up some vague,indefensible, sophmorish,  explaination which they, themselves would have never accepted from their students. 

 You see, no matter how hard you try; no matter how many scriptural contexts you bend, disregard or throw out, no matter how many ad hominem attacks you level against those that hold to the doctrine of EP; that little "forever and ever at the end of Rev. 20:10 is a stake to the heart of anniallationalism.

Like I said in my first post in this thread.  It doesn't matter what you think or how you feel about what The Bible says on this.  It's not within your dominion to judge this.  It's God's and His only.  You don't like it because "It doesn't seem fair" and in your eyes "Makes God the Eternal Tormentor" and thus Satan.  There's only one way anyone could be capable of making such a judgement of God  and that would be if you're equal to God; and that my friend, rest assured, you are not.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

that would be if you're equal to God; and that my friend, rest assured, you are not


bawda boom.   There it is.


----------



## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> that would be if you're equal to God; and that my friend, rest assured, you are not
> 
> 
> bawda boom.   There it is.



If you believe that argument, then you believe that no man can find the answer in scripture.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Matt 19:16—"And someone came to Him and said, 'Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?'"

Jesus said; you already have eternal life; it's just a matter of where you will spend it." 
Wait, that's not what he said, he said;

Matt 19:29-30—"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life."


----------



## Artfuldodger

Then Jesus said;
Matt 25:46—"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

What is the opposite of eternal life? What did Adam loose? 
Death by annihilation in the Lake of Fire could certainly be called "eternal punishment" because it is eternal in its consequences.

John 3:16—"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

John 3:36—"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 4:14—"...but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

John 5:24—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

John 6:40—"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

John 6:54—"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:68—"and Simon Peter answered Him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.'"

John 10:28—"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

Rom 5:21—"so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Rom 6:23—"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Gal 6:8—"For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life."

Titus 3:7—"so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

1 John 5:11—"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."

1 Cor 15:53—"For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality."

What is the definition of life and it's opposite? We aren't born immortal. We must put on immortality. God has given us a way to put on immortality through his Son Jesus. This is the only way we humans can put on immortality.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

hobbs27 said:


> If you believe that argument, then you believe that no man can find the answer in scripture.





Wrong.  Straw man argument.

in essence what you're saying is that if one holds to EP then this 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by BAR308  View Post
> but if God throw people in heck for eternity... then God is the king of all tormentors and no different than the devil.



is the ONLY logical conclusion of that belief, and that's patently false.  It's just a way of pigeonholing others into accepting "your" view and "your" way of interpreting scripture, and it's wrong to present your views in such a false light.  If your views are correct then they should be able to stand on their own merit without having to be propped up by flimsy and downright FALSE assumptions.

 Again, the truthis there are a lot of scriptural questions we don't know all the answers to, but that's not the case (in my opinion) with regards to this.  Scripture is really clear as far as it goes, regarding the EP of He11, but to say that unless we play God we can't interpret scripture correctly is again fallicius.   The truth is, and you have demonstrated this quite well in your reasoning Thank You, unless we play God we have a very difficult time reaching the same conclusions you reach.


----------



## hobbs27

SemperFiDawg said:


> Wrong.  Straw man argument.
> 
> in essence what you're saying is that if one holds to EP then this
> 
> 
> 
> is the ONLY logical conclusion of that belief, and that's patently false.  It's just a way of pigeonholing others into accepting "your" view and "your" way of interpreting scripture, and it's wrong to present your views in such a false light.  If your views are correct then they should be able to stand on their own merit without having to be propped up by flimsy and downright FALSE assumptions.
> 
> Again, the truthis there are a lot of scriptural questions we don't know all the answers to, but that's not the case (in my opinion) with regards to this.  Scripture is really clear as far as it goes, regarding the EP of He11, but to say that unless we play God we can't interpret scripture correctly is again fallicius.   The truth is, and you have demonstrated this quite well in your reasoning Thank You, unless we play God we have a very difficult time reaching the same conclusions you reach.



My argurment is based on scripture alone. If God wants to torment people forever, I'm ok with it. My argument has stood strong using scripture alone, and while I agree with BAR308 on his conclusion, I do not agree with him on how he arrives at it.

 If your argument that I commented on is true, which is , "it's not in our domain to judge this, but God's only", then I can only assume you concede that no man can determine through the scriptures...But the scriptures are clear, even in John 3:16 that we are made to perish, and only through faith in Jesus Christ may we find eternal life.

The belief in eternal torments entered the church through pagan belief, it's not a Christian teaching.


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> The belief in eternal torments entered the church through pagan belief, it's not a Christian teaching.


Hobbs, it does not necessarily follow that the Christian doctrine of He11 is an adaptation of pagan belief, anymore than it shows the Christian answer to it.

If I start from the Atheist use of "flying spaghetti monster" in order to discuss the God of the Bible, I am going to show the differences and correct their understanding.


----------



## EverGreen1231

BAR308 said:


> Most Christians believe that our Lord will take ALL people who fail to "get saved" for whatever reason.. will be tormented by their Creator for all of eternity. But is that what the Bible teaches? No. The "church" has misunderstood a few verses that Jesus spoke about eternal torments. From cover to cover of the Bible... God has given mankind the offer to choose life or death... not a fiery furnace that torments them forever. I will say that i believe there is a fiery furnace that will punish the wicked for their evils... but they will be consumed in the fire just as the Bible says... and they will be "no more" just as the Bible says.
> 
> This post is not to argue or debate back and forth. Its for the Elect who have ears to hear but yet have not studied out this doctrine and been delivered from a doctrine of demons.
> 
> Check out these verses:
> Here’s what the Bible says, and precisely why I have argued that if one were to read the Bible without preexisting ideas of traditional eternal torments, one would not walk away believing in it. Here’s the list:
> 
> Psalm 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish”
> If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe the ungodly perish at all– but live forever in fiery torments. You CANNOT be dead AND alive in torments.
> 
> Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”
> If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe the wicked will be “consumed.” Instead, they believe the wicked and tortured and never consumed.
> 
> Psalm 69:28 says that the wicked are “blotted out of the book of the living.”
> This continues the consistency of scripture which tells us the wicked die– not that they are eternally living in a conscious furnace.
> 
> Ps. 34:16, 21 “evil brings death to the wicked.”
> Of course, if one believes in eternal torments, one doesn’t believe that evil brings death at all, but brings life– in a furnace.
> 
> Psalm 92:7 “… shall be destroyed forever.”
> If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe those who are lost are “destroyed” but again, that they live forever.
> 
> Prov. 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.”
> To believe in eternal conscious torments means one believes they will not be snuffed out at all.
> 
> Dan. 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.”
> This continues the theme of totally destroyed– there’s not a trace of the wicked. This is the opposite of eternal life in the furnace.
> 
> Isa. 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.”
> Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“
> 
> This speaks to ceasing to exist– not eternal life in flames. In the traditional view it will not be “as if they had never been” because they’ll live eternally and still “be alive.”
> 
> Mal 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.”
> 
> Here God is quoted directly– the evildoers are destroyed like straw thrown into the fire, and nothing is left. This shows total annihilation (they no longer exist). To believe in eternal torments, one would have to argue that God was mistaken and that they aren’t destroyed in the fire at all– but live forever in the fire without being consumed, which is the exact opposite of what God claimed.
> 
> Eternal torments is NOT in the Old Testament. Instead, they believed that the wicked are destroyed– that they die and do not get resurrected to eternal life. This is the testimony of the whole of scripture. To believe in eternal conscious fiery furnace is to really be at odds with the terminology we see scripture use. These same claims of annihilation and destruction continue in the New Testament:
> 
> Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in eternal flames.”
> Here Jesus himself teaches against eternal torments– saying that those who are lost experience the death of their soul (which is their life). If one believes in eternal conscious flames, they believe Jesus was wrong on this point, and that souls don’t die at all, but will live forever in flames.
> 
> John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish (die).”
> Again, to believe in eternal flames, one must believe Jesus was wrong in John 3:16 and that people don’t “perish” at all, but live forever in eternal flames.
> 
> Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction (death)“
> Jesus in his warnings continues with the repetitive testimony of scripture: the consequence of rejecting reconciliation with God is destruction– not everlasting life in torment.
> 
> Jesus on a variety of occasions uses the metaphor of fire that consumes not tortures: Matt. 7:19; 13:40; John 15:6
> 
> Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“
> There’s that pesky word “destroyed” again. Those who believe in eternal flames don’t believe one is destroyed in eternal flames, but lives there forever. You cant be DEAD and ALIVE at the same time... If you believe this then please explain how a person can be dead or destroyed AND also alive in eternal flames...
> 
> 2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …”
> Getting repetitive yet? Seems like the Bible is getting pretty clear that the consequence of rejecting God is destruction, not eternal life in eternal flames.
> 
> 1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person”
> There’s that word again that doesn’t mean tortured in eternal flames, but just means what it says– destroyed.
> 
> 2 Cor 2:15-16: “those that perish“
> Again, if Paul meant eternal flames, he should have said it– seems like all Cristians always talk about eternal flames... and not death or destruction.
> 
> Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“
> Growing up we’re taught that the “wages of sin is eternal flames” but nope– it’s perishing, dying, being destroyed.. the opposite of eternal life in eternal flames.
> 
> Hebrews 10:39 “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”
> Another version of the same term… destroyed.
> 
> James 4:12 “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”
> Seems like every biblical author wants us to understand to be “destroyed” is the natural consequence… there is NO writer in the Bible (accept for Jesus) to mention anything about eternal flames... maybe what Jesus spoke was in Parables... and not to be taken literally.
> 
> Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death…”
> Those who believe in eternal conscious eternal flames don’t believe in the second death– they believe everyone is immortal, and that some will live forever in eternal flames.
> 
> Rev 20:14 is clear that they die– they don’t live forever in eternal flames at all.
> 
> Look at this:
> Jude 7
> 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example (to the wicked)  suffering the punishment of ETERNAL FIRE.
> 
> What was "eternal" in this passage? was the fire eternal OR the punishment? well, the punishment was eternal not the fire even tho it says "eternal fire"... Why? because sodom is NOT still burning today but yet the punishment (death or destruction) is eternal... So when Jesus DID mention eternal fire He was saying that the punishment would be eternal... the death or destruction was eternal not the fire itself. the wicked will be like sodom... destroyed... to cease to exist. dead. gone. but NOT burning forever...
> 
> Revelation 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
> 
> What happens when their is a death? do people continue on living? No, they are DEAD. plain and simple. Whats the first death? when we die our normal death. The second death is when we die again and are consumed in the fire and destroyed for good.
> 
> So for the Elect who have ears to hear... i hope you can see this. Its a great relief when God delivers us from false teachings and traditions of men... much peace!



I would advise a deep reading and weighting of what words actually mean from the time in which they were written (this would mean digging into the history of the Biblical transcriptions), this is referred to as textualism. Your whole argument is built on the guise that destruction cannot be equal to torment; that death cannot lend itself to existence. Does scripture not say that the inward man is renewed daily? Does it not say that to be dead is to be separated from all Love? You go so far as to say these bring contradiction to God's word itself. Who would be the author of that confusion? Life is not equal to existence: Death and destruction do not require it's exclusion. The argument is fallacy and built upon rigid logic and intellectualism that lacks sufficient nuance to be considered 'solid' enough to eliminate many years of accepted, and reliably, biblically constructed, beliefs.


----------



## WaltL1

You guys dont have to rely on interpretation of scripture. Its pretty well documented where the concept of he11/eternal punishment/torment originated and when and how it made its way into Christianity.
Couple of examples -


> The concept of eternal torment in he11 is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew and Greek Manuscripts of the Bible, but it is found in the writings of the ancient Egyptians, Greeks and Romans. For example, Plato (427-347 BC) discusses the concept of he11 in his dialogue ‘Gorgias’ where he speaks of eternal punishment.
> There can be no doubt that belief in eternal punishment in he11 was a pagan belief embraced and Christianised by the church in Rome in the early years of the history of Christianity. Consider this quote from The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopaedia of Religious Knowledge, vol. 12, page 96: Retrieved April 29, 2007.
> “During the first five centuries of Christianity, there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional mortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked.”
> It was indeed the Church at Rome which first taught the pagan doctrine of endless punishment of the wicked, under the umbrella of Christianity. The Roman Catholic Latin Church Fathers, Tertullian (160-220 AD), Jerome (347-420 AD) and Augustine (354-430 AD), all strongly believed in the doctrine of he11. These early Latin Church Fathers are highly venerated Roman Catholic saints who believed that God’s punishment of unbelievers (all those who reject Roman Catholicism) would be in a he11 of everlasting torment.


Another -


> Paul still had no conception of a he11 of everlasting torment or a heaven elsewhere than on earth. People who were not "saved" would simply die. They wouldn't have everlasting life. They would perish and never be heard of or seen again. They would not go to a he11; they would just be dead.
> 
> By the second century, however, the church leaders, in their zeal to convert people to become followers of Yeshua, read references to fire and judgment in the Bible to mean that people who did not convert to their version of Yeshua's theology would not simply die--they would be thrown into a fire that would burn eternally. They based this belief on the pagan descriptions of a he11 at the time.
> 
> The first adoption of the pagan beliefs by a Christian writer was in the Apocalypse of Peter, probably written between 125 and 150 CE that remained in various church lists as a canonical text for centuries. It contains what the author claimed were the words of Yeshua as he instructed Peter after the resurrection about the signs of the end times. It also contains a variety of punishments awaiting sinners in he11 and the pleasures of heaven. The descriptions clearly came from Homer, Virgil, Plato, and Orphic and Pythagorean traditions. The he11 myth wasn't in the Old Testament or Christian tradition before this writer developed it out of pagan traditions.


And interestingly enough -


> This is a statement from Pope John Paul II made on July 28, 1999. He11 is not a place of fire and eternal suffering, he says. He describes it as separation from God, chosen by people using their free will, and only symbolically described as a fiery place of torment as a strongly portrayed reminder of the freedom from death believers have. He refers to the descriptions of torment as "improper use of Biblical images":
> 
> The images of he11 that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, he11 indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘he11’” (n. 1033).
> 
> . . . The thought of he11 — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” (Rm 8:15; Gal 4:6).
> (John Paul II, General Audience, July 28, 1999. Retrieved from http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/
> documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999_en.html May 21, 2007).


----------



## welderguy

Well, there you have it folks.
Surely an agnostic AND the Roman Catholic Church cannot BOTH be wrong about this.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> Well, there you have it folks.
> Surely an agnostic AND the Roman Catholic Church cannot BOTH be wrong about this.


Got the info from Christian history websites.
Why does information scare you so much? Its just information, ignore it if you like. Which you apparently do.
Heres an interesting tidbit too -
There is a Norse Goddess (pre-christianity) who was the ruler of the dead and whose job it was to determine what type of life they should have in the underworld.
Guess what her name was -
Hel


----------



## centerpin fan

WaltL1 said:


> There is a Norse Goddess (pre-christianity) who was the ruler of the dead and whose job it was to determine what type of life they should have in the underworld.
> *Guess what her name was -
> Hel*




Hel ... or Hil?


----------



## WaltL1

centerpin fan said:


> Hel ... or Hil?





> Hel is generally presented as being rather greedy and indifferent to the concerns of both the living and the dead


,
And no I didnt make that up!


----------



## hobbs27

WaltL1 said:


> You guys dont have to rely on interpretation of scripture. Its pretty well documented where the concept of he11/eternal punishment/torment originated and when and how it made its way into Christianity.
> Couple of examples -
> 
> Another -
> 
> And interestingly enough -




Very good. Some folks find it too hard to be berean, and easier to just accept status quo.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Hel ... or Hil?



Amen!


----------



## hummerpoo

Walt,

I just don't trust internet sources without knowing who they are.
I don’t know for sure that I found the same sources: but I believe the quotes are there.

1st) http://www.godsplanforall.com/paganoriginofhell
A Universalist website; not one that most believers would consider scripturally accurate.

2nd) http://30ce.com/developmentofhell.htm
A website that also teaches that Paul was not a Christian.

3rd) http://johnmichaeltalbot.com/what-in-the-CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored-is-happening 
(definitely not the same website, but shows the misuse of the statement by the one quoted).
This blogger quotes John Paul II’s statement in its entirety to support his anti-annihilationist message.
A reading of the Pope's statement shows that he is supporting the concept of eternal punishment.

I’m afraid that I cannot consider this “well documented”.


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Very good. Some folks find it too hard to be berean, and easier to just accept status quo.


How is it "very good" that pagans had a more accurate understanding of eternal punishment than Hobbs the theologian?


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> How is it "very good" that pagans had a more accurate understanding of eternal punishment than Hobbs the theologian?



That's funny. If you accept what the Pagans believed as in ECT, then they knew more than Jesus and the Apostles, because they never taught it.


----------



## WaltL1

hummerpoo said:


> Walt,
> 
> I just don't trust internet sources without knowing who they are.
> I don’t know for sure that I found the same sources: but I believe the quotes are there.
> 
> 1st) http://www.godsplanforall.com/paganoriginofhell
> A Universalist website; not one that most believers would consider scripturally accurate.
> 
> 2nd) http://30ce.com/developmentofhell.htm
> A website that also teaches that Paul was not a Christian.
> 
> 3rd) http://johnmichaeltalbot.com/what-in-the-CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored-is-happening
> (definitely not the same website, but shows the misuse of the statement by the one quoted).
> This blogger quotes John Paul II’s statement in its entirety to support his anti-annihilationist message.
> A reading of the Pope's statement shows that he is supporting the concept of eternal punishment.
> 
> I’m afraid that I cannot consider this “well documented”.


What would you consider well documented?
Pagan beliefs (pre-christianity) are well documented and they talk about eternal suffering. 


> A reading of the Pope's statement shows that he is supporting the concept of eternal punishment.


It was the definition of eternal punishment that was the point. Which I think was pretty clear.
As far as "who" the sources are, agreeing or not agreeing with their beliefs doesnt make all the information contained therein false.
For example and I'll just pick a few to make my point -
True or False - 


> but it is found in the writings of the ancient Egyptians, Greeks and Romans. For example, Plato (427-347 BC) discusses the concept of he11 in his dialogue ‘Gorgias’ where he speaks of eternal punishment.


True or False -


> Consider this quote from The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopaedia of Religious Knowledge, vol. 12, page 96: Retrieved April 29, 2007.
> “During the first five centuries of Christianity, there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional mortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked.”


True or False (did the Pope say this?) -


> The images of he11 that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, he11 indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy


So far 2 of you have downplayed or outright called the information inaccurate but I havent seen a thing to prove them wrong other than an insult or two and "I cant consider this well documented".
I thought it was pretty common knowldege that the "eternal torment in he11" thing wasnt the original teachings.
By the way I didnt present anything as FACT, I said it was well documented. And it is. The vast majority of scholars (that I have read) agree.
And I assure you Im not trying to be difficult. I think the major point was interpretating scripture doesnt take into account how these "ideas" got into scripture to begin with. The Bible took like, what, 1600 years to write? Alot happened in that time.


----------



## WaltL1

hobbs27 said:


> That's funny. If you accept what the Pagans believed as in ECT, then they knew more than Jesus and the Apostles, because they never taught it.


Meaning Jesus and the Apostles never taught it right?


----------



## hobbs27

WaltL1 said:


> Meaning Jesus and the Apostles never taught it right?


                   Right. Jesus never taught eternal torments He taught eternal life vs perishment. John 3:16. The Apostles never preached ECT ..ever!


----------



## hummerpoo

WaltL1 said:


> You guys dont have to rely on interpretation of scripture. Its pretty well documented where the concept of he11/eternal punishment/torment originated and when and  how it made its way into Christianity.Couple of examples -
> 
> Another -
> 
> And interestingly enough -





WaltL1 said:


> What would you consider well documented?
> Pagan beliefs (pre-christianity) are well documented and they talk about eternal suffering.
> 
> It was the definition of eternal punishment that was the point. Which I think was pretty clear.
> As far as "who" the sources are, agreeing or not agreeing with their beliefs doesnt make all the information contained therein false.
> 
> [But how do they use the information?  That's the point.]
> 
> For example and I'll just pick a few to make my point -
> True or False -
> 
> True or False -
> 
> True or False (did the Pope say this?) -
> 
> So far 2 of you have downplayed or outright called the information inaccurate but I havent seen a thing to prove them wrong other than an insult or two and "I cant consider this well documented".
> I thought it was pretty common knowldege that the "eternal torment in he11" thing wasnt the original teachings.
> By the way I didnt present anything as FACT, I said it was well documented. And it is. The vast majority of scholars (that I have read) agree.
> And I assure you Im not trying to be difficult. I think the major point was interpretating scripture doesnt take into account how these "ideas" got into scripture to begin with.
> The Bible took like, what, 1600 years to write? Alot happened in that time.



Yes, that is the major point**.  And I don't see that information indicating that ECT was known in pagan cultures prior to the revelations of Christ's incarnation supports the idea that it "got into scripture" by adopting pagan beliefs.  There is much in the OT that is further revealed in the NT.

**The point you want to see is difficult to avoid, which makes the Holy Spirit very helpful.

Just as an aside: what influence does Christian teaching have on those who interpret ancient pagan pictographs?


----------



## WaltL1

hummerpoo said:


> Yes, that is the major point**.  And I don't see that information indicating that ECT was known in pagan cultures prior to the revelations of Christ's incarnation supports the idea that it "got into scripture" by adopting pagan beliefs.  There is much in the OT that is further revealed in the NT.
> 
> **The point you want to see is difficult to avoid, which makes the Holy Spirit very helpful.
> 
> Just as an aside: what influence does Christian teaching have on those who interpret ancient pagan pictographs?





> And I don't see that information indicating that ECT was known in pagan cultures





> Plato (427-347 BC) discusses the concept of he11 in his dialogue ‘Gorgias’ where he speaks of eternal punishment.





> There is much in the OT that is further revealed in the NT.


When you consider that neither Jesus or the Apostles ever taught of an eternal torment in addition to the fact the original word Sheol means basically the grave or place of the dead with no consciesness or awareness, I'm not sure what is "revealed" in the NT to change that.
As you know what did happen was Sheol was replaced with word he11 in translation.
So....
Eternal torment wasnt taught originally.
The concept wasnt in the OT.
The "idea" of eternal torment came later.
The Pagans DID believe in the concept of eternal torment PRIOR to Christianity.
Other Pagan beliefs/concepts were intigrated into Christianity......
I know what those add up to me. And to the vast majority of scholars.


> **The point you want to see is difficult to avoid, which makes the Holy Spirit very helpful.


Thats just it. I dont WANT to see any point one way or the other. History is what it is.


> Just as an aside: what influence does Christian teaching have on those who interpret ancient pagan pictographs?


Cant answer that. I assume it would depend on those doing the interpreting and if and how much they let their preconceived notions/beliefs affect what they are looking at.
Take you guys for example and interpreting scripture. Everybody pretty much sees what they want to see.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Right. Jesus never taught eternal torments He taught eternal life vs perishment. John 3:16. The Apostles never preached ECT ..ever!



Might want to read a little further:

John3:36
" He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the WRATH of God abideth on him."

Explain how you twist wrath into nothing more than a perishing.


----------



## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> Might want to read a little further:
> 
> John3:36
> " He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the WRATH of God abideth on him."
> 
> Explain how you twist wrath into nothing more than a perishing.


It is a new and improved wrath, one that satisfies man centeredness.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Might want to read a little further:
> 
> John3:36
> " He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the WRATH of God abideth on him."
> 
> Explain how you twist wrath into nothing more than a perishing.


 
Do you understand the opposite of life?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Do you understand the opposite of life?



Uhh?.... death?


What about this?:

Matt.25:46
" And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Do you understand the difference between these two concepts?


----------



## Artfuldodger

What did Adam lose in the fall? Part of the image of God and eternal physical & spiritual life. Jesus was made in the image of God to replace this lost image man once had. Jesus made it possible for us to once again have the image of God and eternal life.

What ever it is that Adam lost by the fall is what Jesus replaced.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Uhh?.... death?
> 
> 
> What about this?:
> 
> Matt.25:46
> " And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
> 
> Do you understand the difference between these two concepts?


 
 Yes. I love to deerhunt. I love watching young bucks grow into mature bucks. What I don't like is when someone kills a good young buck I've been watching, because when they do..It's over! Forever, He'll never grow anymore!
Death = everlasting punishment.

You realize yet there's little to no scripture supporting ECT?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> What did Adam lose in the fall? Part of the image of God and eternal physical & spiritual life. Jesus was made in the image of God to replace this lost image man once had. Jesus made it possible for us to once again have the image of God and eternal life.
> 
> What ever it is that Adam lost by the fall is what Jesus replaced.


 
 Im trying to straighten out some JW's on another site about this right now. .

 God told Adam in the day he eat, he would die. Adam was cast out of the garden that day..Adam died spiritually, he lost communion with God, that death reigned from Adam to Moses..{Moses} meaning the entire old covenant.

 Christ put us back in communion with God by forgiving our sins..that God could dwell with us and us with Him.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

A concise excerpt from


http://www.gotquestions.org/annihilationism.html

Warning!!! Some viewers may find this article lacking in that it doesnt cite any Pagan, Neo-pagan, Athiestic, or pantheistic sources.  Nor does it cite Elvis, Aliens, Illumanati.  There is no mention of Roswell or of a conspiracy theory among the early reformers to boost church attendance.  The only source cited is Scripture. I realize the concept of using Scripture to interpret Scripture is a foreign concept to some and downright detestable to others, but it's pretty much agreed upon to be the most accurate method (Sorry Google and Wiki faithful).  Now on with it.


> Question: "Is annihilationism biblical?"
> 
> Answer: Annihilationism is the belief that unbelievers will not experience an eternity of suffering in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, but will instead be “extinguished” after death. For many, annihilationism is an attractive belief because of the awfulness of the idea of people spending eternity in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored. While there are some passages that seem to argue for annihilationism, a comprehensive look at what the Bible says about the destiny of the wicked reveals the fact that punishment in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored is eternal. A belief in annihilationism results from a misunderstanding of one or more of the following doctrines: 1) the consequences of sin, 2) the justice of God, 3) the nature of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored.
> 
> In relation to the nature of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, annihilationists misunderstand the meaning of the lake of fire. Obviously, if a human being were cast into a lake of burning lava, he/she would be almost instantly consumed. However, the lake of fire is both a physical and spiritual realm. It is not simply a human body being cast into the lake of fire; it is a human’s body, soul, and spirit. A spiritual nature cannot be consumed by physical fire. It seems that the unsaved are resurrected with a body prepared for eternity just as the saved are (Revelation 20:13; Acts 24:15). These bodies are prepared for an eternal fate.
> 
> Eternity is another aspect which annihilationists fail to fully comprehend. Annihilationists are correct that the Greek word aionion, which is usually translated “eternal,” does not by definition mean “eternal.” It specifically refers to an “age” or “eon,” a specific period of time. However, it is clear that in New Testament, aionion is sometimes used to refer to an eternal length of time. Revelation 20:10 speaks of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and being tormented “day and night forever and ever.” It is clear that these three are not “extinguished” by being cast into the lake of fire. Why would the fate of the unsaved be any different (Revelation 20:14-15)? The most convincing evidence for the eternality of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored is Matthew 25:46, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In this verse, the same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the wicked and the righteous. If the wicked are only tormented for an “age,” then the righteous will only experience life in heaven for an “age.” If believers will be in heaven forever, unbelievers will be in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored forever.
> 
> Another frequent objection to the eternality of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored by annihilationists is that it would be unjust for God to punish unbelievers in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored for eternity for a finite amount of sin. How could it be fair for God to take a person who lived a sinful, 70-year life, and punish him/her for all of eternity? The answer is that our sin bears an eternal consequence because it is committed against an eternal God. When King David committed the sins of adultery and murder he stated, “Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight…” (Psalm 51:4). David had sinned against Bathsheba and Uriah; how could David claim to have only sinned against God? David understood that all sin is ultimately against God. God is an eternal and infinite Being. As a result, all sin against Him is worthy of an eternal punishment. It is not a matter of the length of time we sin, but the character of the God against whom we sin.



If any of you guys would like to actually critique any of these three points ...you know....using just Scripture, it would be refreshing.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Yes. I love to deerhunt. I love watching young bucks grow into mature bucks. What I don't like is when someone kills a good young buck I've been watching, because when they do..It's over! Forever, He'll never grow anymore!
> Death = everlasting punishment.
> 
> You realize yet there's little to no scripture supporting ECT?



Ha.There's a small problem with your little analogy.The deer just dies and it's all over for his suffering.
But when a goat dies,his suffering just begins.

difference:

the dear encountered death.The goat encountered eternal torment.There's a distinction.


Strong's exhaustive concordance:

everlasting /Greek Aionios-perpetual,eternal,for ever

punishment /Greek kolasis-penal infliction,torment


put the two together and what do you have?
Perpetual,eternal torment for ever.

From Merriam-Webster dictionary:

perpetual
      adjective per·pet·u·al 
: continuing forever or for a very long time without stopping


If you still can't or won't see this,I can't help you.


----------



## hobbs27

SemperFiDawg said:


> A concise excerpt from
> 
> 
> http://www.gotquestions.org/annihilationism.html
> 
> Warning!!! Some viewers may find this article lacking in that it doesnt cite any Pagan, Neo-pagan, Athiestic, or pantheistic sources. Nor does it cite Elvis, Aliens, Illumanati. There is no mention of Roswell or of a conspiracy theory among the early reformers to boost church attendance. The only source cited is Scripture. I realize the concept of using Scripture to interpret Scripture is a foreign concept to some and downright detestable to others, but it's pretty much agreed upon to be the most accurate method (Sorry Google and Wiki faithful). Now on with it.
> 
> 
> If any of you guys would like to actually critique any of these three points ...you know....using just Scripture, it would be refreshing.


 
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Ha.There's a small problem with your little analogy.The deer just dies and it's all over for his suffering.
> But when a goat dies,his suffering just begins.
> 
> difference:
> 
> the dear encountered death.The goat encountered eternal torment.There's a distinction.
> 
> 
> Strong's exhaustive concordance:
> 
> everlasting /Greek Aionios-perpetual,eternal,for ever
> 
> punishment /Greek kolasis-penal infliction,torment
> 
> 
> put the two together and what do you have?
> Perpetual,eternal torment for ever.
> 
> From Merriam-Webster dictionary:
> 
> perpetual
> adjective per·pet·u·al
> : continuing forever or for a very long time without stopping
> 
> 
> If you still can't or won't see this,I can't help you.


 

 When that deer was given the death penalty, it experienced eternal torment forever. Not that it was going to be hurting for every moment for eternity but because it's torment killed it forever and ever. That is the second death!


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> When that deer was given the death penalty, it experienced eternal torment forever. Not that it was going to be hurting for every moment for eternity but because it's torment killed it forever and ever. That is the second death!



Wow.

What about this:

Rev.14:11
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

If they only consumed away,then there would be a rest from their torment.


----------



## Artfuldodger

SemperFiDawg said:


> A concise excerpt from
> 
> 
> http://www.gotquestions.org/annihilationism.html
> 
> Warning!!! Some viewers may find this article lacking in that it doesnt cite any Pagan, Neo-pagan, Athiestic, or pantheistic sources.  Nor does it cite Elvis, Aliens, Illumanati.  There is no mention of Roswell or of a conspiracy theory among the early reformers to boost church attendance.  The only source cited is Scripture. I realize the concept of using Scripture to interpret Scripture is a foreign concept to some and downright detestable to others, but it's pretty much agreed upon to be the most accurate method (Sorry Google and Wiki faithful).  Now on with it.
> 
> 
> If any of you guys would like to actually critique any of these three points ...you know....using just Scripture, it would be refreshing.



I'm a little disappointed that it didn't mention Hitler.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I wonder what happened when "death" was thrown into this physical Lake of fire?

Where do the spirits of the souls of the unsaved go to await their judgement into the Lake of Fire? Let's say an unsaved person died 1,000 years ago and the 2nd coming is 1,000 years from now. What scripture tells us the kind of torment they are experiencing in their holding cell? It must be flames or else they have temporarily escaped their eternal burning torment for 2,000 years.
They won't have any rest, day or night, in their holding cells and it's not a physical place as the grave is. 
So we have an eternally burning holding cell for unsaved spirits awaiting their eternally physical burning place for their resurrected physical bodies. 

I'm not trying to say this isn't possible or that it's not gonna happen but i'd also like some scriptures. I too have always viewed Heaven and He!! as physical and spiritual places. I just get confused about the interim between physical death, spiritual death, and my resurrected physical eternal life or eternal punishment.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> Ha.There's a small problem with your little analogy.The deer just dies and it's all over for his suffering.
> But when a goat dies,his suffering just begins.
> 
> difference:
> 
> the dear encountered death.The goat encountered eternal torment.There's a distinction.
> 
> 
> Strong's exhaustive concordance:
> 
> everlasting /Greek Aionios-perpetual,eternal,for ever
> 
> punishment /Greek kolasis-penal infliction,torment
> 
> 
> put the two together and what do you have?
> Perpetual,eternal torment for ever.
> 
> From Merriam-Webster dictionary:
> 
> perpetual
> adjective per·pet·u·al
> : continuing forever or for a very long time without stopping
> 
> 
> If you still can't or won't see this,I can't help you.





> Strong's exhaustive concordance:
> 
> everlasting /Greek Aionios-perpetual,eternal,for ever
> 
> punishment /Greek kolasis-penal infliction,torment
> 
> 
> put the two together and what do you have?
> Perpetual,eternal torment for ever.


You accidently left out some of Strong's definition -
kolasis: correction
Original Word: ÎºÏŒÎ»Î±ÏƒÎ¹Ï‚, ÎµÏ‰Ï‚, á¼¡
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kolasis
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-as-is)
Short Definition: chastisement, punishment
Definition: chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation
Its not just torment.
So -
perpetual eternal chastisement or
perpetual eternal punishment or
perpetual eternal torment
Or all the above, one of the above, some of the above

Torment is alot more satisfying though, I get it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

(quote)Revelation 20:10 speaks of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and being tormented “day and night forever and ever.” It is clear that these three are not “extinguished” by being cast into the lake of fire. Why would the fate of the unsaved be any different?"(quote)

Is that another trinity? Good question, why is their fate any different? They are created beings. They aren't eternal. They may have had immortality at some point but they aren't eternal. Immortals can lose this gift from God.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body, but do not have power to destroy the life; rather, fear Him Who has the power to destroy both life(soul/spirit) and body in Gehenna." (Matthew 10:28).

God has this power. So for some reason he may destroy both life and body as in both physical and spiritual death or he may grant one to continue in either life(spirit), body, or both. 
He can elect Satan to eternal burning forever and man to die in both body and life. God has this power but I don't know why Satan's punishment is any different. Then again I don't know why Satan has power.


----------



## Artfuldodger

"For even as the Father raises the dead and gives life, in the same way also, the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son so that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father." (John 5:21-23).

I think these verses let us know that that spirits can die. That without being raised from the dead, one dies both spiritually and physically.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body, but do not have power to destroy the life; rather, fear Him Who has the power to destroy both life(soul/spirit)  and body in Gehenna." (Matthew 10:28).


----------



## hummerpoo

hummerpoo said:


> And I don't see that information indicating that ECT was known in pagan cultures prior to the revelations of Christ's incarnation supports the idea that it "got into scripture" by adopting pagan beliefs.



Did you miss part of my sentence when you quoted only the highlighted portion?



WaltL1 said:


> When you consider that neither Jesus or the Apostles ever taught of an eternal torment in addition to the fact the original word Sheol means basically the grave or place of the dead with no consciesness or awareness, I'm not sure what is "revealed" in the NT to change that.
> As you know what did happen was Sheol was replaced with word he11 in translation.
> So....
> Eternal torment wasnt taught originally.
> The concept wasnt in the OT.
> The "idea" of eternal torment came later.
> The Pagans DID believe in the concept of eternal torment PRIOR to Christianity.
> Other Pagan beliefs/concepts were intigrated into Christianity......
> I know what those add up to me. And to the vast majority of scholars.
> 
> Thats just it. I dont WANT to see any point one way or the other. History is what it is.
> 
> Cant answer that. I assume it would depend on those doing the interpreting and if and how much they let their preconceived notions/beliefs affect what they are looking at.
> Take you guys for example and interpreting scripture. Everybody pretty much sees what they want to see.



First a confession and apology: When I read the 3rd quote of your post #259, having just completed the 1st and 2nd, my old decrepit brain didn’t make the shift it should have.  That author was indeed addressing the nature of eternal punishment and not its reality.



> Thats just it. I dont WANT to see any point one way or the other. History is what it is.



We see ourselves differently.

Do not historians choose the "facts" they will emphasis?  Do not historians attribute different motivations to the events of history?  They don't even agree on dates many times.


I have extensively redacted the statement by John Paul II which is referenced in the quote that you posted earlier to eliminate statements with which I do not agree, and in some cases, where I am not familiar enough with the teaching of the Roman Catholic church to be certain of the meaning.  I attempted to indicate where this was done.  In some cases this has radically changed the meaning, and anyone wishing to know what John Paul II said should not rely on the following.

In attempting to retain as much of the statement as possible, I may have inadvertently left something with which I do not agree, however, I do believe that this material, taken from John Paul II’s statement, will respond to most, if not all, of you statements. 

•	“Wednesday 28 July 1999
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
1.	… 

In a theological sense however, he11 is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father’s mercy, even at the last moment of their life.

2.	To describe this reality Sacred Scripture uses a symbolical language which will gradually be explained. In the Old Testament the condition of the dead had not yet been fully disclosed by Revelation. Moreover it was thought that the dead were amassed in Sheol, a land of darkness (cf. Ez 28:8; 31:14; Jb 10:21f.; 38:17; Ps 30:10; 88:7, 13), a pit from which one cannot reascend (cf. Jb 7:9), a place in which it is impossible to praise God (cf. Is 38:18; Ps 6:6).

The New Testament sheds new light on the condition of the dead, proclaiming above all that Christ by his Resurrection conquered death … .

… By using images, the New Testament presents the place destined for evildoers as a fiery furnace, where people will “weep and gnash their teeth” (Mt 13:42; cf. 25:30, 41), or like Gehenna with its “unquenchable fire” (Mk 9:43). All this is narrated in the parable of the rich man, which explains that he11 is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain (cf. Lk 16:19-31).

The Book of Revelation also figuratively portrays in a “pool of fire” those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a “second death” (Rv 20:13f.). Whoever continues to be closed to the Gospel is therefore preparing for “eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thes 1:9).

3.	The images of he11 that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, he11 indicates the state of those …[are separated] … from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever … . This state of  … exclusion from communion with God … is called ‘CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored’” (n. 1033).

… Darnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, ... confirmed with death that seals his choice forever. God’s judgment ratifies this state.

4.	Christian faith teaches that … it is a continuous call to avoid the tragedy which leads to sin and to conform our life to that of Jesus who lived his life with a “yes” to God.

Darnation remains … , but we are not granted, … , the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of he11 — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of … the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” (Rm 8:15; Gal 4:6).

- Pope John Paul II


Man, that was quite a chore, cleaning up his language for the sensors.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

hobbs27 said:


> My argurment is based on scripture alone. If God wants to torment people forever, I'm ok with it. My argument has stood strong using scripture alone, and while I agree with BAR308 on his conclusion, I do not agree with him on how he arrives at it.
> 
> If your argument that I commented on is true, which is , "it's not in our domain to judge this, but God's only", then I can only assume you concede that no man can determine through the scriptures...But the scriptures are clear, even in John 3:16 that we are made to perish, and only through faith in Jesus Christ may we find eternal life.
> 
> The belief in eternal torments entered the church through pagan belief, it's not a Christian teaching.





> My argurment is based on scripture alone. If God wants to torment people forever, I'm ok with it.



I'm sure He's relieved to hear that.



> My argument has stood strong using scripture alone,



It's an arguement founded on, at best, a poor understanding of some basic Christian doctrines; held together by shoddy reasoning, false assumptions, and sad to say, in some cases, intellectual dishonesty.  It's logical inferences are self-contradictory, heretical and anathema to THE very core belief of Christianity.  In short it's an intellectually absurd lie sold by the Devil to under -informed/ill-informed Christians.  




> If your argument that I commented on is true, which is , "it's not in our domain to judge this, but God's only", then I can only assume you concede that no man can determine through the scriptures..




You assume wrong.  Maybe you should review what I typed keeping in mind the difference between interpreting scripture and judging God.  Perhaps it will become a bit clearer.  



> The belief in eternal torments entered the church through pagan belief, it's not a Christian teaching.



How you can make a statement like this in light of Rev. 21 is beyond my capacity to comprehend.  Are you that blind?Is your ego so big that you simply can't accept the possibility that you are wrong on this, or do you have absolutely no regard for the concepts of honesty and truth?  Honestly, I don't know one legitimate Theological scholar WHO HOLDS TO ANNIALLATIONALISM who would make such a blatantly false statement.  Unbelievable.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Wow.
> 
> What about this:
> 
> Rev.14:11
> "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
> 
> If they only consumed away,then there would be a rest from their torment.


 
 Again, this is not about individual judgement, but about a national judgement. Here is an example:

Isaiah 34:10 It will <SUP class=crossreference data-link='(U)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-18314U"></SUP>not be quenched night or day;
Its <SUP class=crossreference data-link='(V)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-18314V"></SUP>smoke will go up forever.
From <SUP class=crossreference data-link='(W)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-18314W"></SUP>generation to generation it will be desolate;
<SUP class=crossreference data-link='(X)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-18314X"></SUP>None will pass through it forever and ever.

 Now, the above verse is abot the destruction of Edom. Heres all the info you need on Edom. http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/fulfill.shtml

 The people {nation} that worshipped the beast was Jerusalem. The beast was Rome and Jerusalem was the Harlot. Judah was also one of these cities that smoke was to rise forever. The language used in Revelation and Isaiah is apocalyptic, its over exagerated!


----------



## hobbs27

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm sure He's relieved to hear that.
> 
> 
> 
> It's an arguement founded on, at best, a poor understanding of some basic Christian doctrines; held together by shoddy reasoning, false assumptions, and sad to say, in some cases, intellectual dishonesty. It's logical inferences are self-contradictory, heretical and anathema to THE very core belief of Christianity. In short it's an intellectually absurd lie sold by the Devil to under -informed/ill-informed Christians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You assume wrong. Maybe you should review what I typed keeping in mind the difference between interpreting scripture and judging God. Perhaps it will become a bit clearer.
> 
> 
> 
> How you can make a statement like this in light of Rev. 21 is beyond my capacity to comprehend. Are you that blind?Is your ego so big that you simply can't accept the possibility that you are wrong on this, or do you have absolutely no regard for the concepts of honesty and truth? Honestly, I don't know one legitimate Theological scholar WHO HOLDS TO ANNIALLATIONALISM who would make such a blatantly false statement. Unbelievable.


 

 Who alone has immortality? Where does it come from?

1Timothy 6: 
<SUP class=versenum>12 </SUP>Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
<SUP class=versenum>13 </SUP>I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
<SUP class=versenum>14 </SUP>That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
<SUP class=versenum>15 </SUP>Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
<SUP class=versenum>16 </SUP>Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Again, this is not about individual judgement, but about a national judgement. Here is an example:
> 
> Isaiah 34:10 It will <SUP class=crossreference data-link='(U)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-18314U"></SUP>not be quenched night or day;
> Its <SUP class=crossreference data-link='(V)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-18314V"></SUP>smoke will go up forever.
> From <SUP class=crossreference data-link='(W)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-18314W"></SUP>generation to generation it will be desolate;
> <SUP class=crossreference data-link='(X)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-18314X"></SUP>None will pass through it forever and ever.
> 
> Now, the above verse is abot the destruction of Edom. Heres all the info you need on Edom. http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/fulfill.shtml
> 
> The people {nation} that worshipped the beast was Jerusalem. The beast was Rome and Jerusalem was the Harlot. Judah was also one of these cities that smoke was to rise forever. The language used in Revelation and Isaiah is apocalyptic, its over exagerated!



You're going to have a hard time convincing us of that because of our indoctrination and yet it is as clear as a bell in your mind. It makes the line from point A to point B much straighter yet we are stuck to believe as our indoctrination.
It must get frustrating at times. I can feel you pain. I wouldn't say you should reconsider Christianity though.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> You're going to have a hard time convincing us of that because of our indoctrination and yet it is as clear as a bell in your mind. It makes the line from point A to point B much straighter yet we are stuck to believe as our indoctrination.
> It must get frustrating at times. I can feel you pain. I wouldn't say you should reconsider Christianity though.



Maybe. Does it matter if a national destruction is past or future according to the language here? It's obviously national isn't it?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Maybe. Does it matter if a national destruction is past or future according to the language here? It's obviously national isn't it?



Beyond salvation and a belief in Jesus, I'm not sure what matters anymore. I was more at peace before I started gaining knowledge. Free will, Election, predestination, fate, Trinitarian, Oneness, Unity, everlasting death, everlasting life, eternal spirits, becoming like God, pre-existing children of God,  image of God as flesh, physical or spiritual resurrections, Heaven on earth, God's Kingdom now or future, and the 2nd coming not being in the future is a whole lot of knowledge.
I'm still trying to figure out how much science God uses within his creation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Maybe. Does it matter if a national destruction is past or future according to the language here? It's obviously national isn't it?



I agree it's obviously national and in the past. Even if it's not in the past it is still national. 
People have a hard time distinguishing the verses related to a nation and interpret them to mean individuals.
I once thought they were the same because nations are made up of individuals but I now see the difference.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree it's obviously national and in the past. Even if it's not in the past it is still national.
> People have a hard time distinguishing the verses related to a nation and interpret them to mean individuals.
> I once thought they were the same because nations are made up of individuals but I now see the difference.



Ok, thanks.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> People have a hard time distinguishing the verses related to a nation and interpret them to mean individuals.



I don't have a hard time at all; I just keep on reading until the end of the story.


----------



## WaltL1

Artfuldodger said:


> Beyond salvation and a belief in Jesus, I'm not sure what matters anymore. I was more at peace before I started gaining knowledge. Free will, Election, predestination, fate, Trinitarian, Oneness, Unity, everlasting death, everlasting life, eternal spirits, becoming like God, pre-existing children of God,  image of God as flesh, physical or spiritual resurrections, Heaven on earth, God's Kingdom now or future, and the 2nd coming not being in the future is a whole lot of knowledge.
> I'm still trying to figure out how much science God uses within his creation.


When you consider the 40,000+ denominations of Christianity, you certainly arent alone.
Although your beliefs hold that God isnt the author of confusion, man certainly has made a mess of it.
Having been in your shoes, my personal solution was to reject anything and everything that man has put his hands on.
Hence my Agnosticism.


----------



## Artfuldodger

WaltL1 said:


> When you consider the 40,000+ denominations of Christianity, you certainly arent alone.
> Although your beliefs hold that God isnt the author of confusion, man certainly has made a mess of it.
> Having been in your shoes, my personal solution was to reject anything and everything that man has put his hands on.
> Hence my Agnosticism.



Well I would like to not believe anything man has placed his hands on and still remain a Christian. That's kinda impossible as man wrote down the Word of God. Then the Church(man) wrote it down again the way he wanted in interpreted. Wading through  the "man" interpretations is a challenge.
Then we have Jesus our Savior who happens to be a man.
I put my trust in that "Man." I also put some trust in myself who happens to be a man. 
A man who is guided along his path to the Light by the same Spirit as every other Christian man.
I agree that in finding the correct knowledge is a challenge. There are just too many variation even within Christianity.
Who am I, a man, to say Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet?


----------



## WaltL1

Artfuldodger said:


> Well I would like to not believe anything man has placed his hands on and still remain a Christian. That's kinda impossible as man wrote down the Word of God. Then the Church(man) wrote it down again the way he wanted in interpreted. Wading through  the "man" interpretations is a challenge.
> Then we have Jesus our Savior who happens to be a man.
> I put my trust in that "Man." I also put some trust in myself who happens to be a man.
> A man who is guided along his path to the Light by the same Spirit as every other Christian man.
> I agree that in finding the correct knowledge is a challenge. There are just too many variation even within Christianity.
> Who am I, a man, to say Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet?


Sure and Im definitely not suggesting my solution should be your solution.


----------



## Artfuldodger

WaltL1 said:


> Sure and Im definitely not suggesting my solution should be your solution.



I know where your coming from and respect your beliefs. We've all got to walk that lonesome valley for ourselves. 
I certainly wouldn't want my fellow Christians to follow my beliefs on the Trinity, Oneness, or Unity of Christ. Just use me to test the spirits and decide for oneself.


----------



## BAR308

welderguy said:


> Uhh?.... death?
> 
> 
> What about this?:
> 
> Matt.25:46
> " And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
> 
> Do you understand the difference between these two concepts?




death IS everlasting punishMENT... eternal torments would be everlasting punishING... theres a difference. and everlasting does not always mean FOREVER... study the words 'everlasting', 'eternal', 'forever'... they dont always mean forever or eternal.


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## gordon 2

WaltL1 said:


> When you consider the 40,000+ denominations of Christianity, you certainly arent alone.
> Although your beliefs hold that God isnt the author of confusion, man certainly has made a mess of it.
> Having been in your shoes, my personal solution was to reject anything and everything that man has put his hands on.
> Hence my Agnosticism.



(I don't what to jump in this like I'm out of the blue and butting in, especially that I think your words are addressed to Art in a very honest, strait forward way: Yet your words hit a note, a cord, an automatic memory in me.)

I have it from medical doctors at a hospital where I once worked that people ( patients) in general are said compliant if they do 70% of what doctor ordered or advised. People are always confused at least 30%, I infer, even when the might of the medical profession and hospital resources are brought to bare in order  that they might max. their well being!

So people it is not surprising that "scratch your head in disbelief" is always present in our lives and the lives of others; That it is the case in spirituality should not be the case to mistrust the hand of man-- no more than the will of a loving mother or a surgeon doing his best to help you.

Maybe, kinda...?

As far as who's got it right, I do. Trust me.  In the 40,000 denominations I got the right one. Thrust me. And and I had an uncle, he was a logger, who once told me when I was a young man, "It does not matter how much money you make, it matters what you do with it."  I think instead of "money ",  "christian denomination" might fit in his saying ... maybe and especially in a North American context...

So it should not stop a bright guy from picking a number, any number, in the spawn of  the Reformers or one of the many rites of Catholics.


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## welderguy

BAR308 said:


> death IS everlasting punishMENT... eternal torments would be everlasting punishING... theres a difference. and everlasting does not always mean FOREVER... study the words 'everlasting', 'eternal', 'forever'... they dont always mean forever or eternal.



Even so,come quickly Lord.


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## WaltL1

gordon 2 said:


> (I don't what to jump in this like I'm out of the blue and butting in, especially that I think your words are addressed to Art in a very honest, strait forward way: Yet your words hit a note, a cord, an automatic memory in me.)
> 
> I have it from medical doctors at a hospital where I once worked that people ( patients) in general are said compliant if they do 70% of what doctor ordered or advised. People are always confused at least 30%, I infer, even when the might of the medical profession and hospital resources are brought to bare in order  that they might max. their well being!
> 
> So people it is not surprising that "scratch your head in disbelief" is always present in our lives and the lives of others; That it is the case in spirituality should not be the case to mistrust the hand of man-- no more than the will of a loving mother or a surgeon doing his best to help you.
> 
> Maybe, kinda...?
> 
> As far as who's got it right, I do. Trust me.  In the 40,000 denominations I got the right one. Thrust me. And and I had an uncle, he was a logger, who once told me when I was a young man, "It does not matter how much money you make, it matters what you do with it."  I think instead of "money ",  "christian denomination" might fit in his saying ... maybe and especially in a North American context...
> 
> So it should not stop a bright guy from picking a number, any number, in the spawn of  the Reformers or one of the many rites of Catholics.





> I don't what to jump in this like I'm out of the blue and butting in,


If nobody ever jumped in all we would hear is crickets 


> That it is the case in spirituality should not be the case to mistrust the hand of man-- no more than the will of a loving mother or a surgeon doing his best to help you.


In an effort to keep this short I'll say -
Although the mother and the doctor may have the best of intentions, truly care and want nothing but the best, that doesnt coorelate to the accuracy of what they know/believe. If what they were taught was polluted they will lovingly and caringly pass on the polluted message.
I personally believe that if there is a god/God the minute man put his hands on it from the very beginning thats when the pollution started.
I base that on how and by who the Bible was created all the way up to the present day.


> As far as who's got it right, I do. Trust me.  In the 40,000 denominations I got the right one. Thrust me.



On a serious note though, the 40,000 demoniantions is an example of the pollution. The typical response to that is it doesnt really matter what denomination as long as you believe in the "big picture".
Of course that assumes that the "big picture" itself isnt polluted.


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## hobbs27

WaltL1 said:


> On a serious note though, the 40,000 demoniantions is an example of the pollution. The typical response to that is it doesnt really matter what denomination as long as you believe in the "big picture".
> Of course that assumes that the "big picture" itself isnt polluted.




 I tend to look at it as Gods way of reaching all cultures and personalities. Some of those 40k are not denominations but cults, such as the JW organization.
 The big picture really is the most important. John 3:16


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## WaltL1

hobbs27 said:


> I tend to look at it as Gods way of reaching all cultures and personalities. Some of those 40k are not denominations but cults, such as the JW organization.
> The big picture really is the most important. John 3:16


I look at it a little differently.
Different denominations are generally a result of different views ie confusion or difference of opinion about what is true.
Some of those differences are pretty major -
Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and you will be saved.
If you werent prechosen before the creation of the world you arent saved regardless of what you believe about Jesus being your Lord and Savior.
God, who is NOT the author of confusion would create this confusion to reach people?


> Some of those 40k are not denominations but cults, such as the JW organization.


That whole cult thing isnt as cut and dry as it seems.
cult -
1. a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object

Now you can try to narrow cult down to maybe include "out of the norm".
Which would make Chrsitianity originally a cult.
Slippery slope that cult thing.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I tend to look at it as Gods way of reaching all cultures and personalities. Some of those 40k are not denominations but cults, such as the JW organization.
> The big picture really is the most important. John 3:16



It's a tiny bit ironic that you are using the various denominations as a way of God reaching the masses but then say the JW's are a cult. 
We have some that say God is One, others say he is a Trinity. We have some that say God incarnate as man while others say the 1/3 of the Godhead Christ came to the earth as Jesus. Yet others say he is the Son of God and a virgin human Mother. Some say he is the adopted firstborn Son of God and not a virgin Mother. Some say the blessed virgin Mother Mary was pure and without sin. That her birth was immaculate.
Now with all of that, why is Jesus being in the form of an angel so weird? 

Some say God was once a man. Some say we came from Heaven and came to the earth to redeem ourselves. That we were once angels and can eventually become gods.
Some say that Christ will return one day and others say he already has. Some say he11 is death by flames and others say it is everlasting punishment.
Some say that we must have freewill in order to decide our own fate and salvation. Others say if we had anything to do with it then God isn't God. That just believing you had anything to do with it will surrender your salvation. 
Some say salvation is all from God's grace. Other say we must prove our salvation by works. That if we don't prove ourselves then we can lose our salvation or better yet, we never had it.

All of this just to appease the masses? Lordship Salvation, free grace salvation, easy believism mega-churches, fire and brimstone fundamental Evangelical Churches?
Churches with music and churches without, Churches with electricity and Churches without, Churches with Holy water and churches without, black Churches, white Churches, Mexican churches, tabernacles, temples, & houses of worship.
Oh, I almost forgot Churches with Baptistry pools and Churches without.
All that and we're all Christian. Why? 
                                                                                                                                    We all believe Jesus died for our sins.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> It's a tiny bit ironic that you are using the various denominations as a way of God reaching the masses but then say the JW's are a cult.
> We have some that say God is One, others say he is a Trinity. We have some that say God incarnate as man while others say the 1/3 of the Godhead Christ came to the earth as Jesus. Yet others say he is the Son of God and a virgin human Mother. Some say he is the adopted firstborn Son of God and not a virgin Mother. Some say the blessed virgin Mother Mary was pure and without sin. That her birth was immaculate.
> Now with all of that, why is Jesus being in the form of an angel so weird?
> 
> Some say God was once a man. Some say we came from Heaven and came to the earth to redeem ourselves. That we were once angels and can eventually become gods.
> Some say that Christ will return one day and others say he already has. Some say he11 is death by flames and others say it is everlasting punishment.
> Some say that we must have freewill in order to decide our own fate and salvation. Others say if we had anything to do with it then God isn't God. That just believing you had anything to do with it will surrender your salvation.
> Some say salvation is all from God's grace. Other say we must prove our salvation by works. That if we don't prove ourselves then we can lose our salvation or better yet, we never had it.
> 
> All of this just to appease the masses? Lordship Salvation, free grace salvation, easy believism mega-churches, fire and brimstone fundamental Evangelical Churches?
> Churches with music and churches without, Churches with electricity and Churches without, Churches with Holy water and churches without, black Churches, white Churches, Mexican churches, tabernacles, temples, & houses of worship.
> Oh, I almost forgot Churches with Baptistry pools and Churches without.
> All that and we're all Christian. Why?
> We all believe Jesus died for our sins.


 
The JW organization is a cult, pure and simple, not just in their beliefs but in the way the organization operates to control it's members. These people are the most brainwashed group I have seen, in that they are not even allowed to believe differently that what the organization says for them to. They have no freedom and are told to work to get more members, so they may have eternal life on earth, in the new coming kingdom.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> The JW organization is a cult, pure and simple, not just in their beliefs but in the way the organization operates to control it's members. These people are the most brainwashed group I have seen, in that they are not even allowed to believe differently that what the organization says for them to. They have no freedom and are told to work to get more members, so they may have eternal life on earth, in the new coming kingdom.



They also practice shunning like the Amish and  Mennonites.
My daughter could tell me that she is a Satan worshiper and I would  be just like the Father in the Prodigal son parable.
God our Father will never turn his back on us. A father is always a Father.

Most denominations require you to believe as they do. Not much freedom in a Baptist that believes in a Spiritual baptism. Not much freedom in a non "works" based Catholic. Not much freedom in a free will believing Primitive Baptist. Yet none of those are "out there somewhere" cults.
I do agree that Christians should think for themselves as lead by the Spirit even within the defines of their denomination. Unitarain Universalist allow this but at the expense of being not just Christianity. I guess we have to draw the line somewhere.
It's just weird to me that the Holy Spirit leads us all so differently. Perhaps non-denomination or inter-denominational Churches is the answer. They are like the Unitarian Churches except staying in just the defines of Christianity.


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