# Racist lab question



## ucfireman (Jan 20, 2019)

To those that have lots of experience with labs. Do y'all see a difference in the hunt ability or retrieve ability of different colored labs? 
 I know people have a preference for pets but I wonder if there is a difference in the colors for hunting? 
Seriously thinking of getting a pup, I'm partial to the yellows or lighter creams,or Chocolate,  so I'm curious. I know blacks were the original and the others were anomalies if you will. 
Just curious.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jan 20, 2019)

The blacks I have had would out hunt and were easier to train than yellow, and especially chocolates.  Also, you cut way down on the skin disorders with a black over the other two.  

I am sure there are some good yellow and chocolate lines out there, or people wouldn't be hunting them.  I am just telling you about my experiences over the past 30 years of messing with labs


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## jakebuddy (Jan 21, 2019)

I have a yellow that was only limited by my abilities as a trainer  not hers, I don’t think colors have anything to do with it. I believe the parents temperament has more than anything to do with it. That and the right training program.


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## flatsmaster (Jan 21, 2019)

If u or ur family like yellow or choc better there's plenty of good options in each .... just remember why ur getting it and proven pedigree and health clearances on sire and dam should be toward the top of the list no matter what color ... training a dog can sure help fill in the 10 months of no season


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## kevbo3333 (Jan 21, 2019)

Talk to some professional trainers and they will tell you chocolate labs are hard headed and harder to train. That’s not to say a choc lab won’t be a great gun dog
Because there are plenty of them out there. I perfer black labs and will continue to buy them because I have had great luck with them. I would steer clear of silver labs for health reasons.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jan 21, 2019)

kevbo3333 said:


> Talk to some professional trainers and they will tell you chocolate labs are hard headed and harder to train. That’s not to say a choc lab won’t be a great gun dog
> Because there are plenty of them out there. I perfer black labs and will continue to buy them because I have had great luck with them. I would steer clear of silver labs for health reasons.



YEP.  Choco's will drive you nuts trying to get a handle on them, In my experience.  I haven't raise them from pups though.  I have only worked with dogs in the 7months and up group, and it could be that the early acclimating that needed to be done wasn't up to par.  

and Yes... health clearances and a gaurantee from the breeder as to soundness is an absolute


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## critterbait (Jan 21, 2019)

Blood line and health clearances is the most important things to look for. They can all be hard headed. With the one's I've had the hard headed ones to train have turned out to be  my better hunters.


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## king killer delete (Jan 21, 2019)

Dog doesn’t know he is a lab or what color he or she is. It’s all about health, drive and a willingness to please. All the rest is just side noise. Blood is very important. A healthy dog is important. You can spend allot of time and money on a dog that’s not worth it. Had a dog that was near sighted. Couldn’t see a 75 yard mark. Make sure the dog comes from healthy stock. Next good blood lines are important. Color like I said the dog doesn’t even know he is a dog.


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## BBond (Jan 22, 2019)

Healthy stock, temperament and drive seem to be very important.  Know people that's had all 3 and all 3 with different problems at different times.  Personally, I've had a black that was as good as I could've trained him.  His shortcomings were my shortcomings.  He had to be put down at 12 (2012 - tough) due to physically breaking down due to hip dysplasia.  He came from a line that had not been checked. Therefore, as soon as I found out prior to breeding him I shut him down and would not stud him out.  Overall the most difficult I've heard has been the chocolates.  But I know people that have had good ones too.

In my experience when I went to get the pick of the litter.  I had decided on a male. They had 1 yellow male and 4 black males in the litter.  The yellow was wide open and probably would've been awesome but I didn't want that challenge due to my inexperience training.  Two of the blacks were already barkers and nah I didn't want that, 1 was as lazy as I've ever seen and then one curious guy would hang out with me and fetch a stick. He didn't bark a lot and he wasn't wide open.  Thus he became Gus the best pet and companion I've ever owned and not too bad at retrieving the ducks I was able to hit.


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## buckpasser (Jan 22, 2019)

What color are most of the champions and field trial dogs.  That should indicate something.


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## casey0802 (Jan 22, 2019)

I think color does matter. I have had all 3... black has been my best lab. easy to train and wanted to learn. I have a silver lab now and he is hard headed as they come. he wants to learn but wants to do it his way.


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## baddave (Jan 22, 2019)

blacks seem to be more hard driven , thus ideal for titles . yellows seem to be a little less hard go but get the job done a little slower . chocolates -oh well , bless their hearts. as i get older i'll stick w/ yellow females .


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## tucker80 (Jan 22, 2019)

Not about abilities ...or drive,  but interesting study on health issues. 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle...r-coat-live-the-longest/ar-BBOJi7V?li=BBnb7Kz


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## ucfireman (Jan 22, 2019)

buckpasser said:


> What color are most of the champions and field trial dogs.  That should indicate something.


I dont know?


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## buckpasser (Jan 22, 2019)

Black. I’ve owned black and yellow. Lots of friends have had chocolates. I’ve seen about 50% of the chocolate turn out good. 100% have been hardheads. My yellows were great dogs but not nearly as bright and easily trainable or natural hunters as my blacks.  Black. Go with a good breeder or at least proven dogs and go black. You’ll never go back. If you want to step to the next level, go Boykin.


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## Mark K (Jan 23, 2019)

I’ve hunted some places I just don’t see a Boykin making it. And that’s even in SW Georgia. Could be wrong, they look sharp on a dove field and fairly clean Woodie Holes. Just can’t see them making the cut through ice or even stickups and lily pads, much less LA gumbo. There were times my 75# Lab was struggling.


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## godogs57 (Jan 23, 2019)

Pedigree means more than color.....regardless of color, examine the pedigree! If you are going to hunt your dog, by all means go with a PROVEN hunting (not show) bloodline. 

That being said, I love my chocolates.


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## buckpasser (Jan 23, 2019)

Mark K said:


> I’ve hunted some places I just don’t see a Boykin making it. And that’s even in SW Georgia. Could be wrong, they look sharp on a dove field and fairly clean Woodie Holes. Just can’t see them making the cut through ice or even stickups and lily pads, much less LA gumbo. There were times my 75# Lab was struggling.



I’d bet a 30 lb Boykin can do just about anything that’s asked of him and eat and crap a whole let less during the 99.99% of the time that he’s not going to be working for you. Can’t go wrong with any well bred and trained dog though. Heck, the best retriever I’ve ever seen was a 50lb Drahthaar.


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## Mark K (Jan 24, 2019)

I wasn’t knocking the breed or the drive. I just don’t want to kill a dog or a dog kill himslef trying to please me.


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## Hooked On Quack (Jan 24, 2019)

buckpasser said:


> What color are most of the champions and field trial dogs.  That should indicate something.




That's a little deceiving because most champ/field trial dogs are black.  That being said, In the last 30yrs I've owned blacks


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## ucfireman (Jan 25, 2019)

So do y'all see one sex better than the other? or more willing?


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## kevbo3333 (Jan 26, 2019)

Dude this is 2019 let the dogs choose their own gender!!!!! Jk my take is if you don’t want to get the dog fixed get a male or you will be cleaning up after the female has been in heat. I have a female now just because I am going to
Breed her, this spring actually if you want a jam up hunting dog with health clearances.


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## across the river (Jan 26, 2019)

buckpasser said:


> What color are most of the champions and field trial dogs.  That should indicate something.



Black is the dominant gene, so there are far more black labs in the population than any other color.   Statistically you would expect there to be far more black champions than yellow or brown, so your reasoning is way off base.


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## buckpasser (Jan 26, 2019)

across the river said:


> Black is the dominant gene, so there are far more black labs in the population than any other color.   Statistically you would expect there to be far more black champions than yellow or brown, so your reasoning is way off base.




Na.


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## buckpasser (Jan 26, 2019)

I don’t believe they’re all the same and it’s just a numbers thing.  Check this article out. I’m in the winter lab training capital of the world and I see a pile of dogs each year that are down here being worked on. They are a huge majority black but I see a few yellows. 

https://www.companionanimalpsychology.com/2014/10/are-all-labrador-retrievers-same.html?m=1


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## across the river (Jan 26, 2019)

buckpasser said:


> Na.



What do you mean n/a.   Go do a little research for yourself, and learn something.  Black is the dominant gene. If you breed a black lab with any other color, the chance that the pup will be black is extremely high.  Depending on the genetic makeup of the black, there is in many cases a zero percent chance that you will get a chocolate or yellow.  You can breed a yellow and yellow and yellow or chocolate and still get all blacks, some blacks, or if both parents  have extremely rare genetic makeup, no blacks.
Saying a black lab is will be a better hunter, have more drive, etc.... than a different color lab from the same litter is ignorant, and people who say that have no understanding of genetics.

When people breed dogs, they breed them (and still breed them) for certain traits.  If a yellow or chocolate come from line that was breed more for show than hunting, then the dogs from that line may display different characteristics than a line that was breed for hunting and had no "show" dogs in it that needed to be mild tempered of whatever for dog shows.   The majority of "hunting labs" from the beginning have been black, and like I said the change of getting a black from a black overall is extremely high, so the numbers get skewed.    With that being said, there are breeders out there that have champion yellows, browns, and blacks and produced great hunting dogs with the recessive genes.   There will be more blacks out there from hunting lines, but the chocolates and yellows from true hunting line breeders with typically be comparable in ability.   I think most people see a yellow lab or chocolate someone has from a show line or some home breeder and make a generalization that blacks are better.  Genetically though, that doesn't make any sense.   If you go look up yellow lab breeders or chocolate lab breeders, large number of them are breed for show.  That means that in overall grand scheme of thing, there are probably more "colored" lab from show lines as a percentage of the dog produced every year.   There will be way more back labs from hunting lines, but that doesn't mean that a chocolate or yellow from a reputable breeder of dogs with a hunting or field trial history will not be as good as the blacks from the same parents.    If you just go buy a dog from some random on craigslist, I would agree that you might actually up your chances of having a good dog by gets a black over a colored.  With that being said though, if you do you due diligence to find a line with a hunting history, the color will have nothing to do with how the dog turns out.


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## buckpasser (Jan 26, 2019)

I say “na” to my reasoning being way off base.  I posted an article for you and guess what, it goes right along with what is pretty much common knowledge.  From the mouths of their owners, blacks and yellows and generally better dogs for our purposes than chocolates. Sure, some of what I say about black vs yellow is opinion, but that’s what forums are for.


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## across the river (Jan 26, 2019)

buckpasser said:


> I say “na” to my reasoning being way off base.  I posted an article for you and guess what, it goes right along with what is pretty much common knowledge.  From the mouths of their owners, blacks and yellows and generally better dogs for our purposes than chocolates. Sure, some of what I say about black vs yellow is opinion, but that’s what forums are for.




From the article you yourself posted.

The scientists say,
“This large-scale study of behavioural characteristics in Labrador Retrievers revealed a number of associations between physical, lifestyle and management characteristics of the dogs and personality traits. *The explanatory factor with the largest overall effect was the Working Status of the dog, where pets showed dispositions that are generally considered less desirable than those of Gundogs and Showdogs.*”​
That is exactly the same thing I said above.  Lets think about this for a minute.   Only a certain percent of all black labs will reach "champion" status. I am sure would agree with that.  For general purposes lets assume that it is 1% of all black labs.  If the overwhelming majority of labs born are black, then most champions will be black.   Since yellows result the second most genetically, then you would expect to see them second in numbers (which you do) and chocolates the least, since they are the fewest.   It is simple math.  If we were on here saying chocolate labs made the best hunters, or there were more yellow champions than black ones, then there might be something too it since  there are far fewer of both from a tighter bloodline than there are blacks. That isn't the case.   The numbers you describe correlate directly to what the breed can genetically produce.  Again, if you find two parents with the characteristics you desire, then there is no reason to believe that a black puppy from the litter will be a superior hunter than it's colored sibling.  It is far more important to take into account the parents and line history of the dog than it is the color.


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## flatsmaster (Jan 26, 2019)

Crazy thing about genetics is pups from same litter with same genetics can have such different personalities and abilities even given the same training .... from a litter 1 might make MH in 20-22 months while another has some struggles with same training concepts at that age ... I bred my dog to a (5)GRHRCH MH (2)MasterNational QAA and Super Retriever Series winner and really wish they all went to hunters to see how each pup turned out compared to my opinion of each pup but unfortunately some are just very good pets ... I no what the expense is to chase a HRCH and MH title even if ur dog passes every test .... with the higher expense involved with chasing a FT Championship they pick what they feel is the best of the best of that high dollar litter to play the game ... I'm sure they have more blk pups to pick from but it sure seems they pick a lot of blk ones !!! ... decide what YOUR needs are from ur hunting companion to  enhance ur hunting enjoyment and get a dog accordingly ... u don't need a pup from a FT Champion breathing fire if u have a hour a wk to work with it ... can it be a pet 10 months of the yr ? R u going to train or send to someone ? Inside dog or outside kennel ?? Lots of questions u need to ask ur self and family and then find a pup that fills those needs ... which ever u pic you'll be a proud pop when it makes its first retrieve .... my .02


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## flatsmaster (Jan 26, 2019)

Let me add any dog competing in a FT no matter the color and where it finishes can prolly more then do the retrieve work you'll need hunting !!!


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## across the river (Jan 26, 2019)

flatsmaster said:


> Crazy thing about genetics is pups from same litter with same genetics can have such different personalities and abilities even given the same training .... from a litter 1 might make MH in 20-22 months while another has some struggles with same training concepts at that age ... I bred my dog to a (5)GRHRCH MH (2)MasterNational QAA and Super Retriever Series winner and really wish they all went to hunters to see how each pup turned out compared to my opinion of each pup but unfortunately some are just very good pets ... I no what the expense is to chase a HRCH and MH title even if ur dog passes every test .... with the higher expense involved with chasing a FT Championship they pick what they feel is the best of the best of that high dollar litter to play the game ... I'm sure they have more blk pups to pick from but it sure seems they pick a lot of blk ones !!! ... decide what YOUR needs are from ur hunting companion to  enhance ur hunting enjoyment and get a dog accordingly ... u don't need a pup from a FT Champion breathing fire if u have a hour a wk to work with it ... can it be a pet 10 months of the yr ? R u going to train or send to someone ? Inside dog or outside kennel ?? Lots of questions u need to ask ur self and family and then find a pup that fills those needs ... which ever u pic you'll be a proud pop when it makes its first retrieve .... my .02




It is no different than humans.   How many people do you know that have two or three kids and one goes on to be successful and the other spends there life as a train wreck. One brother is 6'4" and plays college ball and the other one is 5'10", never picked up a ball and goes on to get a masters degree in physics. I've seen a lot of good looking parents with ugly kids and vis versa.  There is never any guarantee that you get what you want genetically, and even identical twins with the same "genes" can be vastly different in personality even though they have the exact same set.   That doesn't mean that successful parent are not statistically going to produce more  successful kids than  there counterparts, because they are. 

The point is simply saying that picking a lab because it is black in color is going to yield a better hunting or even field trail dog than a well breed yellow or chocolate is nonsense.  More horses than not that win the Kentucky derby are brown because most race horses are brown.  That doesn't mean if you pick a brown horse at the local farmer market that it is going to be able to run faster than a black or grey race horse from a bloodline of proven racehorse from Kentucky.


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## buckpasser (Jan 26, 2019)

This is also from the article:

“Compared to black and yellow Labradors, chocolate Labs were given lower ratings for trainability and fear of noises, and higher ratings for unusual behaviours. Compared to black Labs, they scored lower on fetching but were more excitable and more likely to be agitated when ignored; however these were not different compared to yellow labs.”

I could care less about the field trials, however I’ll have to be shown wrong that all colors are equal. I’ve owned and seen first hand a whole bunch of labs. My experience matches the above portion of the article.


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## across the river (Jan 26, 2019)

buckpasser said:


> This is also from the article:
> 
> “Compared to black and yellow Labradors, chocolate Labs were given lower ratings for trainability and fear of noises, and higher ratings for unusual behaviours. Compared to black Labs, they scored lower on fetching but were more excitable and more likely to be agitated when ignored; however these were not different compared to yellow labs.”
> 
> I could care less about the field trials, however I’ll have to be shown wrong that all colors are equal. I’ve owned and seen first hand a whole bunch of labs. My experience matches the above portion of the article.



O.k. your right.   He should go pick up a an old random black lab and have a fine hunting dog on his hands.


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## buckpasser (Jan 26, 2019)

Exactly!  Here’s a pic of my grand champion black. Ain’t he a looker?


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## RLykens (Jan 27, 2019)

I have a yellow lab male who has been an excellent hunting partner. Very easy to train and Very easy to refresh that training when needed. His drive is all there, can be a tad stubborn sometimes but so can I. His faults are definitely my fault. I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## across the river (Jan 27, 2019)

buckpasser said:


> Exactly!  Here’s a pic of my grand champion black. Ain’t he a looker?View attachment 957031




Well that is a game changer.  You didn't tell me he had white on his chest.  If you had told me you meant the black and white ones, then you would have had no disagreement from me.  Those black and white ones are the perfect retriever if you can find one.   You get one with "socks" and you really have something.


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## Down4Count (Jan 28, 2019)

I have all 3, the only limit is you as the trainer/handler. Any color will out do you on your best day.


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## Mark K (Jan 28, 2019)

buckpasser said:


> Exactly!  Here’s a pic of my grand champion black. Ain’t he a looker?View attachment 957031


Haha! Hunted some catfish ponds in Mississippi and the manager had a catahoula mix that would retrieve everything from Canvasbacks to Ringnecks! And deliver to hand!!


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## king killer delete (Jan 28, 2019)

buckpasser said:


> This is also from the article:
> 
> “Compared to black and yellow Labradors, chocolate Labs were given lower ratings for trainability and fear of noises, and higher ratings for unusual behaviours. Compared to black Labs, they scored lower on fetching but were more excitable and more likely to be agitated when ignored; however these were not different compared to yellow labs.”
> 
> I could care less about the field trials, however I’ll have to be shown wrong that all colors are equal. I’ve owned and seen first hand a whole bunch of labs. My experience matches the above portion of the article.


Who wrote this?


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## buckpasser (Jan 28, 2019)

king killer delete said:


> Who wrote this?



I’m not sure, but we know it’s true. It’s on the internet.


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## buckpasser (Jan 28, 2019)

It says Dr. Zazie Todd, apparently a blogger.


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## king killer delete (Jan 28, 2019)

Color doesn’t mean squat. Parents performance hunting , field trials hunt test are very important just like heath certification . This still may not work but it does get you in the ball park. As far as other breeds and mutts retrieving I’m ok with that. If you got an old hound that picks up ducks go for it.


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## king killer delete (Jan 28, 2019)

buckpasser said:


> I’m not sure, but we know it’s true. It’s on the internet.


I know it’s got to be true cause it’s on the internet. I think I would expand my search . Read everything thing you get on this subject. More black dogs are successful in hunting and trials and test because there are more of them. But I have seen black dogs that couldn’t be trained to pickup the paper much less pick up a duck.


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## buckpasser (Jan 28, 2019)

I don’t bare the burden of proof on the matter KKD. The article matches my opinions and life experience. I know there are junk blacks. I’ve owned one before.  However, if I got on here and asked which color is best, or if there is one, I’d want someone to point me towards a black over the other two prevalent colors. That’s why I answered. Agree or disagree.  It’s no bother to me.


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## Joe Overby (Jan 29, 2019)

Threads like this make me chuckle. Nothing but pages of misinformation and ignorance.


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