# Since all the believers are in this forum anyway...



## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 13, 2011)

Just how much money a week or month do you throw towards the collection plate anyway?  One of my co-workers said he gives 20 dollars a week to the church and every year he gives half his tax return.


Whew...that means he will be diming out about 1040 dollars to the collection plate and half his tax return.   I am pretty sure he said a few weeks ago that his tax return was around 4900 dollars which would give his yearly total at right about 3590 dollars total.  

I can have lots of fun with 3590 dollars!!!   He also told me some religions ask for a percentage of your annual pay or at least that's the informal way of figuring how much to give.  Is this correct and if so, what happens if you dont?  Do you gave to sit in the back row??

Anyone brave enough to admit how much they hand out?


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 13, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> Anyone brave enough to admit how much they hand out?



Don't you worry about a thing, they're on the way.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 13, 2011)

I don't expect many responses because it would seem as though they were bragging. What I do know is that in my estimation, over 30% give a full 10%. That adds up to alot. Some tithe from the gross and some from the net. Others give what they feel they can afford.  Some people that I would not have expected, not much involved, have surprised me, giving 10% always. You would be surprised how much money goes through the big churches. This information comes from when I used to attend a baptist church [40+years]


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## Buckhustler (Mar 14, 2011)

10% that is what is asked by god. Give him first fruits and he will give you his favor and bless you with many blessings.


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## CAL (Mar 14, 2011)

Buckhustler said:


> 10% that is what is asked by god. Give him first fruits and he will give you his favor and bless you with many blessings.



Ya know hustler,must be something to that.Reason i say,my son and his wife make in the six figures.They religiously give 10% of their income to the Lord.He says to me his Daddy that he cannot spend what is not his.In this very poor economy he and his wife have changed jobs 3 times and moved to a different house 3 times too.Last year he put in a swimming pool.Only thing I can say is "go figure".They must be doing something right.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 14, 2011)

Wow, sounds like a form of "Theft by Deception" to me!!!

I will give you "X" if you give me 10% of your money, but you will not know if I held up my end of the bargain until your already dead.  I guess I know now, how a place like 12Stone can afford it.


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## CAL (Mar 14, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> _
> 
> I will give you "X" if you give me 10% of your money, but you will not know if I held up my end of the bargain until your already dead.  _


_

Wrong again Bro.11P&Y.First let me say I am not defending Christians in my post.I am only trying to tell you and anybody else that reads this just how it is with those that love the Lord.It really is quite simple,even a child can understand.We Christians believe on faith,faith that there is a God,the words in the Bible are true,and if we live accordingly only good things will come from it and if the ole devil happens to put some bad on us our Lord will help us through it.To me that is just plain out simple!

I can't give you exact times and places because I can't remember,it doesn't matter.But,In the Bible where Jesus speaks to his disciples an people about giving alms (helping people,giving to the church,etc).Jesus said to do your giving in secret and God who sees all will reward you openly.Now,he also said when giving if one makes a big scene out of it so people can see(bragging),then that is their only reward.This is so true!What ever I give whether it be for church or to help someone out who is down.I don't even tell my wife much less anybody else.Been conned  a time or two but that is not my problem.God saw what I did and knew my intentions.Don't know where it comes from but funds return.Now blessings come in many forms,not just in money.See,I think all good things are blessings and all blessings come from our Lord.

Man,is it hard for a dummy like me to try to explain something sometimes without making such a long post.If I was real smart,no telling how long this post might be too.Anyway,I have tried to explain to you about giving according to what the Bible says and what Jesus told his disciples.I guess the simple answer if that is all one ask for would be "giving never cost anything,it always comes home one way or another".The best answer I know would be to say"try it and see for ya self".Tell that ole devil what is in ya and keeps posting on here to take er back seat for a while.Ya gonna get into this Christianity thing and see what so many folks keep talking about.You would be surprised!Not gonna say ya not going to have problems,trials and tribulations but I will say it just don't get no better._


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## georgiabow (Mar 14, 2011)

way back in the 60's, my grandfather was going to church and giving his percentage every week. he was a very high income individual. some of the higher ups in church found out how much he made, then they went to his house and told him that they feel he should give more money than he already does. he told them leave his house, slammed the door in their face, and never went back to that church.


right now there is a multi-million dollar church going up in statesboro, funded by the members, and a few of the big money folks in statesboro. i guess business is good in the field of promising people eternity.


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> Just how much money a week or month do you throw towards the collection plate anyway?  One of my co-workers said he gives 20 dollars a week to the church and every year he gives half his tax return.
> 
> 
> Whew...that means he will be diming out about 1040 dollars to the collection plate and half his tax return.   I am pretty sure he said a few weeks ago that his tax return was around 4900 dollars which would give his yearly total at right about 3590 dollars total.
> ...



How exactly do you think a church body is ran?


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## georgiabow (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> How exactly do you think a church body is ran?



just like any other BUSINESS..... the church sells a product, in this case being emotional stability and the hope of eternity, in exchange for payment by their patrons. the only difference is that in this case, the payment is made voluntarily and tax free.


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## atlashunter (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> How exactly do you think a church body is ran?



Exactly! It isn't cheap!


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

georgiabow said:


> just like any other BUSINESS..... the church sells a product, in this case being emotional stability and the hope of eternity, in exchange for payment by their patrons.


The "church" are Christians, the building is just that, a building, and I aint selling anything, what God has is free.






> the only difference is that in this case, the payment is* made voluntarily *and tax free.



So what exactly is your problem with it?


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Exactly! It isn't cheap!



what should they have done differently to the building Atlas?


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## HawgJawl (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> How exactly do you think a church body is ran?



The church gives money to help the needy.  Lets call that "LEVEL-A".  Now, the church needs additional money to replace the money given to the needy.

The individual members of the church give money to the church.  Lets call that "LEVEL-B".  Now, the individual members need additional money to replace the money they gave to the church.

The members "LEVEL-B" are told that God will provide money to them.  Miraculously, their contributions will be refunded, sometimes ten-fold.

Why do churches tell people that God only reimburses at "LEVEL-B" and never at "LEVEL-A"?  If God is miraculously providing the money, then why not miraculously provide the money at 'LEVEL-A"?


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## georgiabow (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> So what exactly is your problem with it?



who says i have a problem with it?


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## georgiabow (Mar 14, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> If God is miraculously providing the money, then why not miraculously provide the money at 'LEVEL-A"?



because, god is all powerful, all knowing, and all wise, but somehow.... he just cant handle money.


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## georgiabow (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> and I aint selling anything, what God has is free.



apparently its not.... that why you guys have a collection plate.....


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

georgiabow said:


> who says i have a problem with it?


Im sorry, I should have asked and not assumed. 

Do you have a problem with it?


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

georgiabow said:


> apparently its not.... that why you guys have a collection plate.....



Nobody pays money for salvation, its free, it does however, cost to keep the lights on. Of course you and P&Y and everyone else knows that, this whole thread is nothing but


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## georgiabow (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Im sorry, I should have asked and not assumed.
> 
> Do you have a problem with it?



i dont have a problem necessarily with the salvation and collection part of it... heck, if people believe it, then they deserve to blindly give money to some guy behind the scenes fattening his tax free pockets. i know a couple of these people.... ive seen what on goes on at these churches when the patrons arent around.

the only thing i have a problem with the religious idea as a whole.


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## atlashunter (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> what should they have done differently to the building Atlas?



Does that building strike you as something Jesus would have sanctioned? The guy who said "sell everything you have and give it to the poor and follow me".


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## georgiabow (Mar 14, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> The guy who said "sell everything you have and give it to the poor and follow me".



i know who you are talking about.... his name is barack. lol


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 14, 2011)

georgiabow said:


> because, god is all powerful, all knowing, and all wise, but somehow.... he just cant handle money.



Sometimes you can see big signs that say "Jesus Saves".


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

georgiabow said:


> i know who you are talking about.... his name is barack. lol


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> Sometimes you can see big signs that say "Jesus Saves".


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## atlashunter (Mar 14, 2011)

georgiabow said:


> i know who you are talking about.... his name is barack. lol



Also sometimes called the chosen one, the annointed one, and "sort of a God". Seeing a pattern here...


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## georgiabow (Mar 14, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Also sometimes called the chosen one, the annointed one, and "sort of a God". Seeing a pattern here...



my point exactly......


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 14, 2011)

Cal, in your post #7, you verified what I am talking about.  You see, you give because the bible tells you too. You give money and will be given something back in return.   Right?  

Good luck with that.

You explained it perfectly...even a child could understand, unfortunately I read a little deeper into it than believers and realize that it's a written testament to how they make their money.  Just how much money goes towards helping the community?  Just how much or percentage goes towards helping people in other countries?  Just what percentage is actually use by the church fOr their own benefit ie: bills, new structures etc etc.  ?  I highly doubt higher management let's that type of info out.


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Does that building strike you as something Jesus would have sanctioned? The guy who said "sell everything you have and give it to the poor and follow me".



He was speaking to a rich man when that was said, it was not directed towards everyone. Yes I grant that some hot shot preachers often take advantage of the money that comes into the church and build a shrine to themselves. However, I dont see anything wrong with a building being big or nice.


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> Cal, in your post #7, you verified what I am talking about.  You see, you give because the bible tells you too. You give money and will be given something back in return.   Right?
> 
> Good luck with that.
> 
> You explained it perfectly...even a child could understand, unfortunately I read a little deeper into it than believers and realize that it's a written testament to how they make their money.  Just how much money goes towards helping the community?  Just how much or percentage goes towards helping people in other countries?  Just what percentage is actually use by the church fOr their own benefit ie: bills, new structures etc etc.  ?  I highly doubt higher management let's that type of info out.



How are bills "their own benefit". You think GA power just gives out free power to church buildings, you think a builder gets his whole crew together a builds the place for free? This is simply rediculous. Your a grown man/women and you dont understand these things? I agree that some "preachers" or church members take advantage of the situation, but MOST dont.


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## CAL (Mar 14, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> Cal, in your post #7, you verified what I am talking about.  You see, you give because the bible tells you too. You give money and will be given something back in return.   Right?
> 
> Good luck with that.
> 
> You explained it perfectly...even a child could understand, unfortunately I read a little deeper into it than believers and realize that it's a written testament to how they make their money.  Just how much money goes towards helping the community?  Just how much or percentage goes towards helping people in other countries?  Just what percentage is actually use by the church fOr their own benefit ie: bills, new structures etc etc.  ?  I highly doubt higher management let's that type of info out.




Hey P&Y,
I have got to get your mind changed about our Lord.I love talking to you.First,please don't take anything I say as offensive.See,Jesus in his whole life never brought a person to Christianity by criticizing them.

All of the church income information is public record and in the Baptist church the same information is publicly displayed in the bulletin of the church monthly or quarterly.Besides what the church does with the money one gives has little to do with the blessing our Lord bestows on the giver.It really matters not to me.here is a little about giving alms.

In Matthew,chapter 6 Jesus said these words.

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men,to be seen of them.Otherwise ye have no reward of your father which is in Heaven.
2.Therefore when thou doest thine alms,do not sound a trumpet before thee,as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets,that they may have glory of men.Verily I say unto you,They have their reward.
3.But when thou doest alms,let not your right hand know what your left hand  doeth.
4.That thine alms may be in secret,and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Those words are directly from the Bible.I don't give expecting something back.I give to help out situations,people in need mainly.I was just saying that when we do give freely,God will reward us back.In some of the chapters talking about giving,it says that the one giving can't handle the blessing our Lord will return to us too.
Anyway,one other thing I believe.I don't think a person who goes to church will necessarily go to Heaven.I don't see where there is a church that can guarantee anyone a seat in Heaven.It is my opinion that getting into heaven is a personal relationship one has to have with our Lord. I can only tell you that I have that relationship and I am doing my best to get to heaven.I can't guarantee anyone there is a Heaven but I have faith there is.I want you there with me too.All I ask you to do is to think about this.


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## atlashunter (Mar 14, 2011)

CAL said:


> Those words are directly from the Bible.I don't give expecting something back.I give to help out situations,people in need mainly.I was just saying that when we do give freely,God will reward us back.In some of the chapters talking about giving,it says that the one giving can't handle the blessing our Lord will return to us too.



How do you reconcile that view with the reality of starving Christians in Ethiopia?


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> How do you reconcile that view with the reality of starving Christians in Ethiopia?


The world is harsh


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 14, 2011)

Something you might find interesting. In the area that I live, we have "associations". Most baptist churchs in our county belong to the association. As far as I know, all surrounding counties have their own association. I don't know if this is standard statewide. But back to my point; did you know that the church tithes from it's tithes to the association.


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## CAL (Mar 14, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> How do you reconcile that view with the reality of starving Christians in Ethiopia?



Hey Atlas,

Man that is a very good question that I can't answer.When I get to Heaven I will try to remember to ask our Lord about that,also wish for him to tell me why so many of the people in the U.S.A. disbelieve in Him as well.Especially with all the Blessings each of us have from day to day.

Bible says that we disbelievers are enjoying now all we will ever enjoy if we disbelieve.There is no more for us this is it,it and the worms.


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## CAL (Mar 14, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Something you might find interesting. In the area that I live, we have "associations". Most baptist churchs in our county belong to the association. As far as I know, all surrounding counties have their own association. I don't know if this is standard statewide. But back to my point; did you know that the church tithes from it's tithes to the association.



I didn't know that either but it stands to reason.Something has to keep up the association.But there again,when one gives it doesn't matter what the church does with the money.The giver has received his Blessing if he was to get one.That is the way I look at it.Never have really been concerned with what happens to the money.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 15, 2011)

CAL said:


> Never have really been concerned with what happens to the money.



Can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink!!


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## CAL (Mar 15, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> Can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink!!



Now P&Y,you know that comment don't fit my comment.Your comment fits what I am trying to do.I done led my horse out in the creek up to his eyeballs and that ole horse is just plane out stubborn.He is so thirsty for the "living water" but just will not drink.I'm beginning to think my horse might just be getting a drink or two somewhere else and won't let it be know.I think he just might be faking a little.Wish I could look at that critter and see some facial expressions.All I can hope for is he will get him a drink of this here "living water" before it is too late for him.


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## dawg2 (Mar 15, 2011)

holy cow...


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> The world is harsh



That only works as an explanation in a world free of supernatural intervention on behalf of the believers/givers.

I'm also concerned about this idea that we shouldn't be concerned with where money given is used because our blessing is guaranteed either way. It makes it sound as if the reason for giving is what you will receive in return rather than those who are the recipients of the gift. If the blessing will come to you regardless of what is done with the money that means God rewards equally those who send their money to a con-artist like Benny Hinn and those who make sure their money isn't being spent on mansions and luxury vacations for the preacher. Doesn't sound right to me.


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## 1john4:4 (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> What I mean is based on what Cal has said, it sounds like his primary motivation for giving is the blessing he will get for it.




Sounds to me like Cal is being obedient to our Lords commands and trusting Him that out of obedience blessings will flow as He promised.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I believe God set the natural order of things, we choose how we live in that natural order. We chose the harsh way.



Sorry but if you're a starving kid in Ethiopia you didn't choose anything. If them giving whatever they can would return a blessing on them and put food in their bellies then famines could be easily fixed. In the real world things aren't so simple. Fact of the matter is a lot of believers starve while non-believers have plenty. How you see the hand of a God working on behalf of believers in that is a mystery to me.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 15, 2011)

1john4:4 said:


> Sounds to me like Cal is being obedient to our Lords commands and trusting Him that out of obedience blessings will flow as He promised.



This is precisely what atlashunter asserted.  Just thought I'd point that out.


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Sorry but if you're a starving kid in Ethiopia you didn't choose anything.


Its not the starving kids fault, it might be the fault of some king or dictator, the starving kid is the product of the situation.




> Fact of the matter is a lot of believers starve while non-believers have plenty.


I would rather be a starving believer then a full atheist. God doesnt promise a nice steak dinner with faith in Him and His will.




> How you see the hand of a God working on behalf of believers in that is a mystery to me.


Gods main focus is on the heart and soul of man not about making sure we have gravy for our biscuits, or even a biscuit for that matter.


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> This is precisely what atlashunter asserted.  Just thought I'd point that out.



If I go to help homeless people, I know going into it that it feels great to help someone in need. I didnt help for the feeling great part,even though its part of the equation, I helped because of instruction. Just like I dont give for the blessings, its just part of the equation. Im sure Cal feels the same.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 15, 2011)

CAL said:


> Now P&Y,you know that comment don't fit my comment.Your comment fits what I am trying to do.I done led my horse out in the creek up to his eyeballs and that ole horse is just plane out stubborn.He is so thirsty for the "living water" but just will not drink.I'm beginning to think my horse might just be getting a drink or two somewhere else and won't let it be know.I think he just might be faking a little.Wish I could look at that critter and see some facial expressions.All I can hope for is he will get him a drink of this here "living water" before it is too late for him.



I think you do not understand.  I am posing questions and things to think about and in return, you are preaching bible verses and such which just indemnifys more and more my point that believers are brain washed into thinking they need to give money to the church to gain entry into your afterlife community.  So, what if you dont give but still want to believe?  Does that mean that the Home owners Association in your afterlife community is going to make you live in the back of the subdivision next to the swamp where the Skeeters grow as big as hummingbirds??  

You think i want to read bible verses?  If i did i would go into the other room to the book case and pull out the old bible that belonged to my grandmother, but i would rather have my grandfathers, which had the inside cut out so he could hide his shot flask in it for when the sermons went WAY WAY to long.  I mean,...sometimes thats the best way to cope with the looong sermons.  I know that now as an adult but when i was a weee little one and was made to go to church, i wished to be doing nothing more than playing outside instead of sitting in that big hall listening to some boring nerd talk....and talk and talk and talk.  And then there was the off key singing.  BLAH!!!!  I think i need a drink just thinking about that time in my life.  Thankfully once my parents and grandparents saw i was not buying into the whole bunch of nonsense, i was given a choice to go to church or not just like my other 2 brothers did...and guess what,...free thinkers we are!  None of us go to church and i think we are better people now that we do not go to church.  

I know your going to comeback with some kind of scripture passage but before you do, please do me and a few others a favor and leave the scripture passages alone and try to respond without them.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Its not the starving kids fault, it might be the fault of some king or dictator, the starving kid is the product of the situation.



True enough. I don't blame any deity for starving kids. But conversely for the kids that have plenty I don't credit any deity. The two go together. Be consistent.




stringmusic said:


> I would rather be a starving believer then a full atheist. God doesnt promise a nice steak dinner with faith in Him and His will.



We're not just talking about a steak dinner here. We are talking about the basic level of nutrition needed to stay alive that many believers will not have while crying out to God.




stringmusic said:


> Gods main focus is on the heart and soul of man not about making sure we have gravy for our biscuits, or even a biscuit for that matter.



I'm reminded of those parents who are so concerned about their kids spiritual well being that they deny them life saving medical treatment. Any loving parent with the power to provide for both, would.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I would rather be a starving believer then a full atheist. God doesnt promise a nice steak dinner with faith in Him and His will.



HAHA!!!  



I guess you never starved before now have you!!  Death from not eating would be a horrible way to go.  I once went 4 days without eating and would have ate a skunk,...tail first.


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> True enough. I don't blame any deity for starving kids. But conversely for the kids that have plenty I don't credit any deity. The two go together. Be consistent.


Believe me, I dont see a 8 year old with a bunch of toys or a 16 year old driving a brand new f250 and think, wow, God is really blessing them.





> I'm reminded of those parents who are so concerned about their kids spiritual well being that they deny them life saving medical treatment. Any loving parent with the power to provide for both, would.



Those parents need to be in the luny bin.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Those parents need to be in the luny bin.



As does any deity that stands by with folded arms while his children slowly waste away for nothing more than lack of rain.


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## ambush80 (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> As does any deity that stands by with folded arms while his children slowly waste away for nothing more than lack of rain.



I think "His ways are not our ways." covers that and many other things.


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## georgiabow (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> As does any deity that stands by with folded arms while his children slowly waste away for nothing more than lack of rain.



zing


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## georgiabow (Mar 15, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I think "His ways are not our ways." covers that and many other things.



i think bovine feces covers that and many other things as well, but thats just my opinion.


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> As does any deity that stands by with folded arms while his children slowly waste away for nothing more than lack of rain.



As much as Ambush was a smart aleck, he is pretty much right. Parents should let there children go to the doctor when they're sick because they dont know what will happen if they dont, and God does. You, see a starving Ethiopian die, God may see a starving Ethiopian die and go to Heaven, along with 10 others who seen the dieing guys faith and also believed, which leads to Heaven.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> As much as Ambush was a smart aleck, he is pretty much right. Parents should let there children go to the doctor when they're sick because they dont know what will happen if they dont, and God does.



Perhaps they are trusting that Gods will be done regardless of any of their interventions and because of that consider medical treatment as unnecessary. See below.




stringmusic said:


> You, see a starving Ethiopian die, God may see a starving Ethiopian die and go to Heaven, along with 10 others who seen the dieing guys faith and also believed, which leads to Heaven.



You, see a child die from lack of medical care, God may see a child die and go to heaven, along with 10 others who saw the child's faith and also believed, which leads to heaven.

Do you actually think about what you are saying before you say it?


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> As much as Ambush was a smart aleck, he is pretty much right. Parents should let there children go to the doctor when they're sick because they dont know what will happen if they dont, and God does. You, see a starving Ethiopian die, God may see a starving Ethiopian die and go to Heaven, along with 10 others who seen the dieing guys faith and also believed, which leads to Heaven.



So what's a doctor got to do with it?  Wouldn't they be interfering with God's plan?  Or are doctors in possession of powers that others do not have (from God)?


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Perhaps they are trusting that Gods will be done regardless of any of their interventions and because of that consider medical treatment as unnecessary. See below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You mixed medical care for a child and eating for an Ethiopian, and yes I do think(a little) before I post.


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> So what's a doctor got to do with it?


Atlas brought up parents who dont take their kids to the Doc.



> Wouldn't they be interfering with God's plan?


I dont know what God has planned for their life.



> Or are doctors in possession of powers that others do not have (from God)?


I dont believe so.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> You mixed medical care for a child and eating for an Ethiopian, and yes I do think(a little) before I post.



We are talking about saving lives in both cases. In the one case you consider it crazy to stand by and watch the child die, in the other case it's ok.


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> We are talking about saving lives in both cases. In the one case you consider it crazy to stand by and watch the child die, in the other case it's ok.



Foreknowledge is the key.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Foreknowledge is the key.



Can you explain?


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Can you explain?



post #54


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> post #54



Ok let's think this through.



stringmusic said:


> As much as Ambush was a smart aleck, he is pretty much right. Parents should let there children go to the doctor when they're sick because they dont know what will happen if they dont, and God does.



If a parent knows that God has foreknowledge of what will happen to their child and knows he is more than capable of saving their life if it is his will, does  it not make sense for them to rely solely on that faith? I assume that you agree it could be the case that God's will is that the child live but his will will only be done if the parents act and take kid to the doctor. Because they don't have foreknowledge of the outcome or of his will they should act. Could the reverse also be true? Could it be that as with the child dying from starvation it was God's will that they die and thus bring more people into the heavenly fold, that it is also God's will for the kid who may die without medical care that they actually die for the same reason, to bring more people to God through their faith? And that by acting or intervening and saving the kids life the parents could actually be interfering with the will of God?

If the scenario you offered with the starving Ethiopian child is true (should we assume it true in every case?) then it must also be true that by feeding that child and saving their life we have interfered with the outcome God intended. The same must be true in both cases. We mortal humans lack the foreknowledge of the outcomes of our actions and knowledge of God's will in both cases. Why then should we assume it crazy to act rather than refrain from acting? Why not just leave all of it in God's hands to do as he pleases?

Maybe God just isn't there. Maybe we live in a harsh world in which the only intervention on behalf of goodness and justice is the intervention we create ourselves. Seems the most plausible explanation to me. I don't see a God purposely starving kids around the world nor do I see a God putting food on my plate. If circumstances brought us to it "God" would show no more interest in dropping mana from heaven for you or I than he shows for the Ethiopians.


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## jmharris23 (Mar 15, 2011)

This thread is not headed in a great direction so just a reminder to stay cool even if someone posts something you think is idiotic. That goes for those on both sides of this argument.


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## applejuice (Mar 15, 2011)

Give all your money away if you want, that preacher is gonna need some new tires for his vette!
I'll keep mine


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

applejuice said:


> Give all your money away if you want, that preacher is gonna need some new tires for his vette!
> I'll keep mine



lump'em all together why dont you. I dont think your quite sure what your denying. Just my opinion.


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## ambush80 (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Ok let's think this through.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think I get what you're saying.  

If you feed a starving Ethiopian, you might have prevented his death; a death which may have caused many to come to Christ.

What if you're an avowed Atheist or a Satanist and you save a starving Ethiopian?  What kind of message does that send to the other Ethiopians?

What if you lived in Christ's day and gathered up an army to save him.  What would things be like now?


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## applejuice (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> lump'em all together why dont you. I dont think your quite sure what your denying. Just my opinion.



You worry about yours and I'll worry about mine. It's ok if you don't think im sure , I can live with that


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Ok let's think this through.
> 
> 
> 
> If a parent knows that God has foreknowledge of what will happen to their child and knows he is more than capable of saving their life if it is his will, does  it not make sense for them to rely solely on that faith?


If they know, God may make it know that the child will be ok, if the parents arent dumb enough not to take the child to the doctor.





> I assume that you agree it could be the case that God's will is that the child live but his will will only be done if the parents act and take kid to the doctor. Because they don't have foreknowledge of the outcome or of his will they should act. Could the reverse also be true?


I kinda answered the part about the doctor in the above before I read this part. As far as if the reverse could be true also I guess it could be, the person not taking the kid to the doc better be sure they're hearing God clearly.




> Could it be that as with the child dying from starvation it was God's will that they die and thus bring more people into the heavenly fold, that it is also God's will for the kid who may die without medical care that they actually die for the same reason, to bring more people to God through their faith?


I dont know, never been in the situation before. I dont know that God uses this to reveal someones' faith, He may or may not, its a real hypothetical situation.




> And that by acting or intervening and saving the kids life the parents could actually be interfering with the will of God?


I think when its someones' time, nobody can interfere



> If the scenario you offered with the starving Ethiopian child is true (should we assume it true in every case?)


No, I think alot of the time we dont know.





> Maybe God just isn't there. Maybe we live in a harsh world in which the only intervention on behalf of goodness and justice is the intervention we create ourselves.


Maybe God is there/here. Maybe we live in a harsh world in which intervention on behalf of goodness and justice is intervention we create ourselves and God.


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## CAL (Mar 15, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> I think you do not understand.  I am posing questions and things to think about and in return, you are preaching bible verses and such which just indemnifys more and more my point that believers are brain washed into thinking they need to give money to the church to gain entry into your afterlife community.  So, what if you dont give but still want to believe?  Does that mean that the Home owners Association in your afterlife community is going to make you live in the back of the subdivision next to the swamp where the Skeeters grow as big as hummingbirds??
> 
> You think i want to read bible verses?  If i did i would go into the other room to the book case and pull out the old bible that belonged to my grandmother, but i would rather have my grandfathers, which had the inside cut out so he could hide his shot flask in it for when the sermons went WAY WAY to long.  I mean,...sometimes thats the best way to cope with the looong sermons.  I know that now as an adult but when i was a weee little one and was made to go to church, i wished to be doing nothing more than playing outside instead of sitting in that big hall listening to some boring nerd talk....and talk and talk and talk.  And then there was the off key singing.  BLAH!!!!  I think i need a drink just thinking about that time in my life.  Thankfully once my parents and grandparents saw i was not buying into the whole bunch of nonsense, i was given a choice to go to church or not just like my other 2 brothers did...and guess what,...free thinkers we are!  None of us go to church and i think we are better people now that we do not go to church.
> 
> I know your going to comeback with some kind of scripture passage but before you do, please do me and a few others a favor and leave the scripture passages alone and try to respond without them.



Hey P&Y,

Man I wish we were closer together where I could share a pot of coffee and er honey bun with ya.Reason being,I sure do like you !Yep,you and I could be very good friends more so than we are now.
And I am not going to quote scripture to you or anyone else for that matter.Only scripture I posted was about Jesus instructions about giving that is all.Giving to the needy is Gods instructions as Jesus has said many times.I don't give because I know I will get it back,I give because I see a need for what I can do without.Jesus said this kind of freewill giving,done in secret.God who sees all will bless the giver.I challenge you to try it and see for yourself!Now how about that?Stop talking P&Y and prove ole CAL wrong in this.You haven't proved anything I have said wrong.Not only you but every other negative poster here.I challenge all you so called atheist to prove me wrong in what I have said about Jesus and God.Nobody is going to post cause ya CAN'T prove what I have said wrong.

Now "my friend" and you are my friend aren't you? Lets talk about ya Grandmothers Bible.I bet my life savings you wouldn't dare under any circumstances tell ya Grandma some of the funny stuff you have posted on the forum about our Savior.Not and keep ya teefe!And you already know it.Them old folks didn't play about their religion and you know I am right about this even if we argue about other religious material.Ya Grandpa was a religious man too I see,wasn't he wouldn't have a Bible either.
Know what,I totally agree with what ya said about going to church.Some of the most miserable days of my small boys life was setting in church.I don't believe I ever heard a single word the preacher ever said!Only thing I can tell anyone for sure is my Mother sang in the choir when I was small and she watched ever thing I did from the choir loft.When I wiggled from being tired of just setting still she would stare me down and then after church i had to go and cut that bridle wreath switch.Just like you ,I said if I ever get big enough to make my own decisions about church I wouldn't go.I didn't go for a long time and really haven't been now in several years,but that is a story all it's own.Ain't no church gonna send ya to Heaven no how.To get to Heaven,one has to accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior,died on the Cross and rose in 3 days.By doing this and living a Godly life ya gonna go.Now that Godly life is where I stumble.I have to deal with that ever day.Got no problem in believing in Gods word,none what so ever.

Now my turn P&Y.I know ya gonna come back with something.Just please make it make some sense instead of all this here ridiculous stuff you been saying.


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## CAL (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I'm also concerned about this idea that we shouldn't be concerned with where money given is used because our blessing is guaranteed either way. It makes it sound as if the reason for giving is what you will receive in return rather than those who are the recipients of the gift. If the blessing will come to you regardless of what is done with the money that means God rewards equally those who send their money to a con-artist like Benny Hinn and those who make sure their money isn't being spent on mansions and luxury vacations for the preacher. Doesn't sound right to me.



Man atlas,I am beginning to really like you as I do ole P&Y.I can see we got er lots in common cause we think alike.Like you I have questioned exactly what you are saying and more too about these massive churches and the money they collect.I also notice how evangelist dress and live and how they supposedly heal people and knowing all the time they are fake.I presented all this to a very good friend what is a born again believer.Now get this,my friend said how the healing sometimes works is simple.It works because of the Faith the believer who is being healed has not that Benny Hinn did anything whatsoever.That makes sense to me
Now the money part.As a believer in gods word,I believe the giver is Blessed because he is doing Gods instructions.No other reason and it makes no difference whether the giver gives  a big amount or a small amount.The difference comes in whether the giver is doing the best that the giver can do or just giving.See,God likes for his people to always do the very best they can whether witnessing to other people or giving to Him.We have to do the very best we can in order to receive those blessings.Some of my biggest blessings have come from giving more than I could really afford to give money wise but I did so because the cause warranted it.I could replace those funds in time.The big thing that people have a problem with in giving,those same people who give wish to tell the receiver what to do with the money.This kind of actions causes the giver to lose their Blessing if they had one coming is my belief.I really believe we have to give freely.Never one time wondering where the money goes.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I kinda answered the part about the doctor in the above before I read this part. As far as if the reverse could be true also I guess it could be, the person not taking the kid to the doc better be sure they're hearing God clearly.



Is it any worse to interfere with God's will in one direction vs the other?




stringmusic said:


> I think when its someones' time, nobody can interfere



In other words if his will is that they die there is nothing you can do to stop it. And is the reverse true? If it is his will that they live is there nothing you can do to stop it? I see no reason that one would be the case but not the other. Why should his will for someone to live be dependent on your action any more than his will for someone to die be dependent on your inaction? If his will be done either way then it doesn't matter if the parents take their kid to the doctor. And obviously there are people out there who believe that. If the carrying out of his will is dependent on their action or inaction again it cuts both ways and the problem of lack of foreknowledge applies in both cases. You've already suggested with the Ethiopian kid that in some cases it's God's will that a kid die. You'd think there would be better ways of making a demonstration of faith than letting a kid starve to death though.




stringmusic said:


> Maybe God is there/here. Maybe we live in a harsh world in which intervention on behalf of goodness and justice is intervention we create ourselves and God.



I see no more reason to give your god the credit for the works of men than to give any other deity credit. I'm in agreement with Mark Twain who said, "If you will look at the matter rationally and without prejudice, the proper place to hunt for the facts of His mercy, is not where man does the mercies and He collects the praise, but in those regions where He has the field to Himself.".


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

Cal,

It shines through in your posts that you're a genuinely good hearted person. I suspect that goodness in you is independent of what you believe about the bible. In other words you'd still give to those in need even if you doubted the bible were true. I don't claim to be as generous as maybe I should be but I do try to help others when the opportunity arises. I don't do it because any god has told me to and I don't do it because I think I'll get some reward. I do it for its own sake because it helps make the world a little bit better place for my having been in it. I do believe that there are some true principles contained in the bible, not that they are unique to the bible. One of those principles is that you reap what you sow. Some people call it karma. Whatever it is, it _tends_ to hold true. It also does not require the work of any god for it to hold true. But there are plenty of exceptions to the rule and I pointed one example out to you to show that what the bible says about being rewarded for your giving doesn't always hold true.

To get back on topic of the original post churches are indeed businesses and big churches are big businesses. Most are probably not as corrupt as they've been painted here and most do at least some good charitable work. I guess it depends on how you intend the money to be used. If you want a tiny part of it to go to feeding the hungry with the lions share going to build a new gym for the youth group or a fancy sound system for the auditorium or a new building that looks like a castle, maybe giving to the church is the way to go. If the intention is to have as much as possible go to helping people in need there are probably more efficient charities to donate to.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 16, 2011)

Cal, just got off an 11 hour shift.   I will respond tomorrow after I get some much needed zzzzzzzzz.


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## CAL (Mar 16, 2011)

Hey atlas,many thanks for your fine words.I do try to be good hearted,I enjoy helping people and have all my life.Nope,God didn't tell me to do so but it is Biblical.I really believe too what you just printed about "reaping what one sows" that is also Biblical.Whether you realize it or not you are doing what our Lord said one has to do in order to inherit eternity.I am beginning to think the Lord is already working on ya ole heart by what you just posted.I'm gonna Pray for ya and ask our Lord to continue to deal with ya ole heart,I see er soft spot there.I knew ya had one for some reason or I would have done done what Jesus said to his Disciples.I woulder kicked that dirt off mer feet and not wasted time with ya.

Hello ole P&Y,been er wondering where you was.I knew all along you was somewhere probably working cause you ain't going to let ole CAL get er post up on ya.Get them z's so me and you can go at it today.Done got mine and waked up here checking up on you boys to see what's going on with ya.Like you,I give plum out last night and had to hit tha hay as is said.

You fellas have a great day.Understand it is going to be er little cloudy and maybe 70 degrees.We had er few showers yesterday but I think it is about over now.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 17, 2011)

Cal, I still have my grandmothers bible because it was something she cherished.  I have no use for it otherwise.  It sits in the bookcase and when my little one is older, I will give it to her to pass down.  Nothing more than a keepsake.  

My grandfather owned a bible which he took to church as well but he only went to church because grandma ordered it.  Their compromise was that grandpa got to take a flask which he his in his bible.  Hintedtly, that is the bible I would love to own but I don't.  He was not a believer in the least amount but went to apease my grandmother.  

I have friends that ate very very religious to the point that they went to college at one of the best regilious colleges in the state.  They know I am not and never will be religious.  They do not force it on me and they don't preach to me.  When they come for dinner abd want to pray, they do and we wait in silence for them to finish out of respect.  Never in the 20+ years I have known them both dud they ever try to convert or preach to me.  They respect my reservations and vice versa.  Can't say the same for folks on here.  



Time for bed.


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## CAL (Mar 17, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> Can't say the same for folks on here.
> 
> 
> 
> Time for bed.



Dadgum you P&Y,just when I get er chance to get with ya you done left fer that bed.I know,ya get to work tomorrow and need ya beauty rest.See,when ya get old and ugly like me and beauty rest don't do no good you'll stay up er little longer.

Now you looker here john brown yo time.Don't know what ya thinking but I ain't er preaching to ya.Start with ain't smart enough to preach and don't know how to either.Done posted how I like ya and wanta be in the "Promise land" withya.If that's preachin,it is er first on me.
All i'm doing and just trying to do is to plant er seed in that hard head of yours.Ain't never seen ya but I bet ya don't even wear er hard hat at work,with that hard head ya got.
Come to think of it,I'm pretty hard headed hadn't er been I would of done left this thread long ago.But I'm gonna tell ya first hand,you can take this to the bank.I ain't leaving under no circumstances,know why.Cause I think there is hope fer you boys,ya ain't fooling me.I don't think none of ya is half as tough minded as ya act like ya are.Now come on and prove ole CAL is wrong with his comments.I know ya gonna try anyway.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 18, 2011)

CAL said:


> I don't think none of ya is half as tough minded as ya act like ya are.



Cal, if you knew me personally, you would have to exclude me from this remark.  I am about as hard headed and tough minded as they come...ask my wife...i think i hear at least once a day "Remind me why i married your stubborn #%*&$"!!!!  Man, i love her!!!!


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