# Lets talk Side by Sides



## rocket (Jan 21, 2016)

I've got a few over and unders, and know quite a bit about them. However I know very little to nothing about side by sides, and would like to be educated. I wouldn't mind picking up a nice 20 ga. 
I'm certain one could spend anywhere from $500-$20,000 but what is a realistic, nice/hunting grade purchase price?  I'm not looking for utility grade, but I also don't want a collectors item that I'll need to take out a loan for. 
How about guys...Coveyrise90 please chime in too, I've seen you make mention of side by sides in earlier posts.


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## GLS (Jan 22, 2016)

New or used?
In the $1000-2000 range, new, the CZ or Dickinson are Turkish guns of decent quality.
In the lower priced range, Stevens models are solid.
Premiums are paid for low weight and gauge.  Expect more for 20, 28 and 16.  16 is a good compromise on weight and price.  The best bargain on a quality gun, used, is an English made gun, box lock, no ejectors (BLNE)  A very good single trigger gun is the old SKB Ithaca 100.  Double triggers are simpler and more reliable than single select.  Spanish guns can be good, but some of the metal in some brands is soft.  
Below is a recent discussion on guns costing not more than $2000.  Vintage guns often require low pressure loads.  Old wood requires lighter shot weights as recoil can cause problems with old wood.  Pressure and recoil aren't related.  Recoil is caused by ejecta (largest component is the shot), velocity and gun weight.  American Classics that are solid guns at less than astronomical prices are Ithaca NID's and Fox Sterlingworths.  The Sterlys are plainer versions of the high grade Foxes, but have identical actions.  Older Ithaca Flues are lightweight, but frame strength is an issue with modern loads.  If the action is sound, low pressure and light loads of shot are a must.  Many older guns are chambered for 2.5".  Testing has shown that 2.75 loads of proper pressure can be safely shot in the shorter chamber.  However, RST and Polywad offer short shotshells in low pressure with lighter payloads.  
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=430901&page=1


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## Jetjockey (Jan 22, 2016)

I'll second what GLS said.   SxS's are not cheap to make, thus buying an inexpensive SxS will cause you to cut corners.  American Classic field grade guns are exceptional guns that will hold their value, but most likely go up in value over the years.  Like GLS said,  some are short chambered making it more difficult to go to just any sporting good store to buy shells.  However, I have found it easier to call RST to order a flat of shells and have it delivered two days later, than to travel to a bid store that may or may not have what I'm looking for.  Short chambered guns are no slouches in the field either.  I absolutely hammered late season SD roosters this year using my 2 1/2" chambered LC Smith 20ga with RST 7/8 oz #5's.  From quail to pheasants, I am never under gunned with quality low pressure ammo..  If you want a modern gun it will be hard to beat a used AYA #4, RBL, or other quality SxS in the $2500-$3500 range...    Those guns sold for $3500-$5000+ new, and are very good guns.  As for inexpensive SxS's, you will hear people say they have never had problems with their guns, but you will hear a lot of people who have.   As of now, I would not own a Turkish built SxS.  Turkish guns have come a long ways, but there are just way to many used guns that are much better quality that will retain their value, and appreciate over time, to spend money on a cheaply built SxS, IMO.

 I bought my LC Smith 2 1/2 years ago, and even with the cost of a complete restoration, I could sell the gun for 2X-3x's what I have into it.  A quality SxS can be a very good investment.


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## GLS (Jan 22, 2016)

Stevens
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=430706#Post430706

Ithaca Flues
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=433577&nt=2&page=1
Ithaca NID
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=433564&sid=8f7789e19212ae37c9935d6da74b9813

For what it's worth, I hunted woodcock this season mostly using two 16 gauge guns made in England, one in 1905 and the other in the 1930s.
I shot Polywad Vintager loads of 7/8 oz. in the right barrel and Doublewide 7/8 oz. in the left barrel.  Both shells are 2.5".  I also handload for them as well.  The heavier gun was 5 lbs., 13 oz.; the lighter 5 lbs. 12 oz.  Both were a joy to carry.  American classics in the same quality would have cost considerably more money.  One reported issue with the L.C. Smith is susceptibility to wood cracks behind the sideplates.  This is no reason not to buy one, but a heads-up.  It can be fixed and prevented more easily with glass bedding.  I have also had an NID glass bedded.  It's a 10 gauge.  Gil


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## Jetjockey (Jan 22, 2016)

GLS.  Make sure people understand the possible issues with the Flues as well.  Unlike most American guns, and the NID, shooting modern loads out of a Flues could be catastrophic.  Doing the same thing with a NID, Smith, Parker or Fox will not have the same issues.  Smiths are notorious for cracks under the locks, but like you said, that is easily fixed by glass bedding them.  The one problem with vintage guns is the fact that quality non-toxic ammo is not easy to come by.  In states like SD, when hunting on public land, non-tox is required.  On days like those, my LC Smith stays in the case.  That's where modern SxS's shine over the classic guns.


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## GLS (Jan 22, 2016)

I did.  Re-read my first post.


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## Jetjockey (Jan 22, 2016)

I read what you said, but it needs to be highlighted.  Unlike a Smith, Parker, NID, or Fox, if you misuse a Flues, it could be DANGEROUS!   If I shoot modern 2 3/4 high pressure loads in my 2 1/2 LC Smith (which I'm sure has happened), it might crack the stock, but the gun won't blow up.  I could glass the stock, open up the chambers, and shoot modern 2 3/4" shells all day long, even though it will hard on the gun.  The metal can handle it.  If you do that with a Flues, the metal might crack, or worse yet, blow up in your hands.  Flues and Damascus guns are similar IMO.  Safe to shoot IF you know what your doing.


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## mlandrum (Jan 22, 2016)

I learned  something new, thanks for the input fellows


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## rocket (Jan 25, 2016)

I think I'd rather have a gently used side by side, however Santa brought my boys each 20ga Yildiz o/u's and so far I have found no problem with them.


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## coveyrise90 (Jan 31, 2016)

Always love to see new people take interest in SXSs!

I don't know much on classic American doubles but here are my recommendations

$2000 or less.
Perhaps a CZ or Yildiz if you want new. Better yet Dickinson makes some high quality new guns. Used I would look at SKB 100s, 200s, or 280s. You can also find many nice Browning BSS 12s and 20s int this price range. And then there are the classic like field grade LC Smiths or Fox Sterlingworths. Many smaller name English made 12ga availed. They will likely be more entry grade guns but still offer great quality, handling, and value. Also, a wide range or Belgium and "guild" guns would fall in this category.


Step it up to $3500 or so you can step up the grade of both English and American guns. Plus you can consider used Spanish sidelock guns.


As you said, the price varies widely. What are you looking to spend?

Adam


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## Uptonongood (Feb 1, 2016)

Lots of good info in this thread.  I've got an RBL which has the feature of interchangable non-visible choke tubes.  

The Parker Reproduction guns are good, especially the double trigger models.  The blueing finish on repros isn't the greatest, it is quickly wore off leaving a patina appearance which still looks good.

I love hunting with my SxS, very traditional, old timer feeling.


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## ronnem (Feb 5, 2016)

*sxs*

You have to narrow your price range or at least define it.  I would not touch a Turkish or other made sxs or o/u for that matter.  Save  your money buy either a Spanish or itallian sxs you will never regret it.  If you cannot afford a Spanish or Italian sxs buy an l.c. smith either restored or needing to be restored and pay the money to have it restored(bore work, lengthen the forcing cones, blueing, stock refinish AND STOCK FITTING, whatever).  The CSMC is as fine as they get American wise, but for the money I would go Italian.  FYI all my shotguns are Italian but I have no financial restraints when it comes to shotguns.  
Ron


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