# Swap and Sell and health testing.................



## quackwacker (May 31, 2014)

dont you think there should be some sort of warning in the animal section of the swap and sell about health testing of dogs.  How many of the Lab and Boykin pups being sold have EIC or bad hips and the buyer has no idea?


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## JuliaH (May 31, 2014)

I think the ads are up to the seller, but info on testing and even on pedigrees outta be in the ads. 

It's a buyer beware thing, I think and, though I agree with your thoughts, I don't think it will ever happen... 

Julia


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## krazybronco2 (Jun 1, 2014)

quackwacker said:


> dont you think there should be some sort of warning in the animal section of the swap and sell about health testing of dogs.  How many of the Lab and Boykin pups being sold have EIC or bad hips and the buyer has no idea?



i like the idea and should be done but to many people are looking to make a quick buck on selling puppies that they don't want to pay to have all the testing done.


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## JuliaH (Jun 1, 2014)

There is still one more thing to consider (probably a lot of things, but this one is worth talking about).  From a breeder's point of view, you would be surprised at how many buyers care only about how cheap they can get a puppy. 

And there are far too many people who think they can make a quick buck or, in their eyes, a lot of $$ raising puppies. Problem is, without having testing done in the field or in the recommended tests for breeds, the puppies are mediocre at best. 

It is buyer beware out there. If people want good puppies, they should be looking for folks who tests their dogs, at least in the field, and who have "take back policies" on their pups if something is wrong..

If the buyers will get more educated, it will help to weed out some of the sellers who are in it for a few $$.

Julia




krazybronco2 said:


> i like the idea and should be done but to many people are looking to make a quick buck on selling puppies that they don't want to pay to have all the testing done.


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## Joe Overby (Jun 1, 2014)

Whose job is it to educate the buyers?


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## Gadestroyer74 (Jun 1, 2014)

I have got some great dogs from non advertised breeders from good folks but that is a risk. I have also got the worst dog I ever had from a well known breeder end up being a cut out pup they didn't want for themselves. They have top notch stuff and sell there should I say cull pups to others as high quality dogs they may look good on paper but aren't


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## JuliaH (Jun 2, 2014)

Well Joe, that's a good question  

Breeders can talk with buyers, and educate them. Breeders SHOULD talk with them and educate them on the breed they raise as well as health stuff. Breeders should also have a return policy of some sort.  

There are plenty of places on the internet too, where buyers can learn about whatever sort of dog they are interested in. 

For instance, our chihuahua....  almost anyone might want a cute little one like her, but do most know how strong a personality comes in that tiny dog, and how much they like to bark, and that this tiny creature might be friendly, and then again, might bite?  LOL... I had one once, years ago, I had to put on a tiny thread of a run because he would terrorize the big yard dogs.  

There are a lot of communications that should happen between buyer and seller before $$ changes hands 

One of the conversations I always try to have is the need for exercise. Sporting dog breeds are high energy dogs, and they make great couch potatoes too, IF they have had plenty of time to play and run. The other is on color. My GSPs come in plenty of color patterns, ranging from a lot of white to a lot of color to solid colors.  The hardest conversation I have to have is trying to get folks to choose their pup for its personality rather than color, and I have taken one or two back to rehome because that very problem. 

I also don't guarantee hunting skill, though I have 3 titled dogs here, and all my dogs like to play with birds. You know why?  Cuz I don't know how they are going to be trained.  I suggest at least a foundation of training by a pro, or an experienced amateur, if a person wants a good hunting dog. 

The breeder's control leaves with the puppy, and sometimes breeders are through talking with their clients once a sale is done.  It should not be that way. But the buyer is not off the hook in this either. If he does not communicate back with the breeder if he thinks something is wrong, then he is remiss in his responsibility as well. 



Julia




Joe Overby said:


> Whose job is it to educate the buyers?


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## krazybronco2 (Jun 2, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> Whose job is it to educate the buyers?



as a buyer and most likely never a breeder. i say it is the buyers responsablitity to find a well breed healthy puppy, also to learn what is everything means. take 10 mins and google how to choose a Lab breeder and you will have 138474573 hits and you can find out anything you want about health issues. 

did i do that with my dog NOPE. did i  make a mistake just wanting a "hunting" dog that might have bad hips or elbows? maybe time will tell. but i can tell you now it wont happen again.


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## JuliaH (Jun 2, 2014)

Well, krazy.... I hope your story turns out with a silver lining! Being a breeder is a lot of work, more than just producing puppies, and how are buyers to find a good breeder?  

It does take homework. I got my first registered dog and had to get really grumpy with the breeder to get the papers. I didn't know you could not just trust them.  When I got my second registered dog, I was dumb enough to do the same thing, but with a different person. Needless to say, I got his papers too. 

Then I happened upon a good man with some real nice dogs that taught me a lot. When I got into hunt testing, I thought I had it made! Then I found field trials, through that same patient friend... and I found David King of Royalerun Kennel. 2 field champions and a few hard knocks (I am a little hard headed, and it takes time and those hard knocks to learn) later, I now am a little smarter than I was, and I have learned a lot.

Breeders and buyers can work together well. We just all need to be aware of some risks on many sides of this issue.

Julia


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## Joe Overby (Jun 2, 2014)

That was a rhetorical question. It is the very people Wes is calling out whose job it is to educate the buyers. Ahh but the drive of the Almighty dollar and an unsuspecting, ignorant puppy buyer makes for an easy mark. 50% of the dogs out there should NOT be bred for some reason or another IMO...50% of the people out there shouldn't be having kids either...I guess i just laugh at threads like this... It ain't gonna get any better. These folks selling these pups are going to continue to do so as long as there's enough ignorant people left to buy them. And as long as there's places like the swap and sell forum that require absolutely ZERO from these so called breeders by way of listing clearances for an ad to sell to be valid this is going to continue. It really is beating the proverbial horse...with a wet noodle.


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## quackwacker (Jun 2, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> That was a rhetorical question. It is the very people Wes is calling out whose job it is to educate the buyers. Ahh but the drive of the Almighty dollar and an unsuspecting, ignorant puppy buyer makes for an easy mark. 50% of the dogs out there should NOT be bred for some reason or another IMO...50% of the people out there shouldn't be having kids either...I guess i just laugh at threads like this... It ain't gonna get any better. These folks selling these pups are going to continue to do so as long as there's enough ignorant people left to buy them. And as long as there's places like the swap and sell forum that require absolutely ZERO from these so called breeders by way of listing clearances for an ad to sell to be valid this is going to continue. It really is beating the proverbial horse...with a wet noodle.





GREAT answer to your own question Joe.  You hit the nail on the head.  I am disappointed that GON does not even put up a sticky that you must click through before getting to the pet section of swap and sell, that says buyer beware.  That would be an easy thing to do and it might make some one stop and do some research or at least ask a question or two of the breeder.


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## JuliaH (Jun 2, 2014)

I know you guys are only talking about the GON Marketplace, but what sales site DOES ask for testing results or information on sales dogs?   The only ones I know about are breed sites, such as GSPCA in my case. And they don't usually have classified areas. They simply have links to breeders, where the breeders are supposed to adhere to certain standards.... but do they?

I normally advertise on gun dog sites. Not so much on GON these days anyhow, partly because GON is notorious for folks asking what is the lowest price one will take...lol...but it is still education for the buyer and checking out the seller to get the dog/puppy you want. There is no way around education and careful business dealings.

Julia


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## krazybronco2 (Jun 2, 2014)

JuliaH said:


> I know you guys are only talking about the GON Marketplace, but what sales site DOES ask for testing results or information on sales dogs?   The only ones I know about are breed sites, such as GSPCA in my case. And they don't usually have classified areas. They simply have links to breeders, where the breeders are supposed to adhere to certain standards.... but do they?
> 
> I normally advertise on gun dog sites. Not so much on GON these days anyhow, partly because GON is notorious for folks asking what is the lowest price one will take...lol...but it is still education for the buyer and checking out the seller to get the dog/puppy you want. There is no way around education and careful business dealings.
> 
> Julia



for lab people it is normally retriever training forum or entry express both have classified and I'm 99% sure both require health clearances. for the LBD people i can't help you there.


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## JuliaH (Jun 2, 2014)

yes, I see it on retriever training forum.    And, I am not disagreeing with you guys as much as saying for one or two good sites like this, there are a hundred not requiring anything... not just GON 

Julia




krazybronco2 said:


> for lab people it is normally retriever training forum or entry express both have classified and I'm 99% sure both require health clearances. for the LBD people i can't help you there.


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## Joe Overby (Jun 2, 2014)

Not just picking on GON Julia. It more than tweaks me when the most important aspect a prospective buyer considers is the purchase price of a puppy.  The ignorant masses have absolutely zero understanding of the amount of monetary investment in the parents when the registered names are littered with titles and followed by a list of health clearances. This is but one of the many reasons I will NOT sell a puppy to a pet home. I have worked too hard and invested too much in the parents of a litter to have potential talent wasted tied to a tree in someone's front yard.


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## JuliaH (Jun 2, 2014)

Joe, I understand. My dogs are competed too, and I am not out there just trying to sell puppies   I have asked before for a "breeders forum" on GON, even with restrictions on sales, but no dice so far. There is much people can learn from breeders to buyers, and it might even help weed out some folks who think breeding is a shortcut to getting a lot of $$ once or twice a year. 

I do still sell to pet homes, but I screen those buyers carefully. They have to know that a high energy dog has certain needs that other breeds may not have...

Julia



Joe Overby said:


> Not just picking on GON Julia. It more than tweaks me when the most important aspect a prospective buyer considers is the purchase price of a puppy.  The ignorant masses have absolutely zero understanding of the amount of monetary investment in the parents when the registered names are littered with titles and followed by a list of health clearances. This is but one of the many reasons I will NOT sell a puppy to a pet home. I have worked too hard and invested too much in the parents of a litter to have potential talent wasted tied to a tree in someone's front yard.


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## RUTTNBUCK (Jun 2, 2014)

quackwacker said:


> GREAT answer to your own question Joe.  You hit the nail on the head.  I am disappointed that GON does not even put up a sticky that you must click through before getting to the pet section of swap and sell, that says buyer beware.  That would be an easy thing to do and it might make some one stop and do some research or at least ask a question or two of the breeder.


 quackwacker that would be a great idea, but the vast majority of members here don't even read the forum rules when they join!!...


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## quackwacker (Jun 2, 2014)

RUTTNBUCK said:


> quackwacker that would be a great idea, but the vast majority of members here don't even read the forum rules when they join!!...



This site had rules?  Who Knew?


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## SilveradoZ71 (Jun 3, 2014)

krazybronco2 said:


> did i do that with my dog NOPE. did i  make a mistake just wanting a "hunting" dog that might have bad hips or elbows? maybe time will tell. but i can tell you now it wont happen again.



Same here.  What can I say?  I was one of the ignorant masses with limited funds looking for Lab for service work and bird retrieval and Ive learned now that my dog should have never been born.

She came from a pet litter.  No health clearances on either parent.  No titles in the pedigree but both AKC registered.  I gave 100.00 for her and a good friend  trained her to pick up birds and other things for me.

I had her fixed.   I also see now that was the wrong thing to do as well.

   I do know now the importance of health clearances and the importance of considering other factors than just price when picking out a puppy so I have at least learned something here.

I will be better prepared next time.


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## JuliaH (Jun 5, 2014)

There are a couple of new dog food threads, one for Showtime and one for Joy. Not talking about the food... but look at the attitudes over there from some, and the answer for health testing and more are shown clearly over there....

The clearest statement I have seen in a long time..... "Its just a dog don't panic"   UGH!

And GON thinks they have done dogs a favor by stopping the dog selling forums so WE (breeders with a better attitude) cannot speak freely any more. Sad.


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## cocdawg (Jun 5, 2014)

My experience.....I bought my first lab, drunk as a skunk, at a DU Banquet (should be against DU rules).  I really couldn't tell you what I paid for it but I know it wasn't much (150 max).  The pup had no health certs and no working parents.  That dog was the wildest joker I've ever seen.  Fast forward 10 years and I was ready for another.  With a good bit of research and some help from Joe I bought a puppy in west AL for a whole lot more.  Health certs on both parents, FC/AFC, MH X MH parents and from day one it's been the best pup I've ever owned.  The worst part of this pup....my boys driving me CRAZY bc he's been with Joe since the middle of Dec.  I'll say, I've learned my lesson on backyard breedings.


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## quackwacker (Jun 11, 2014)

JuliaH said:


> There are a couple of new dog food threads, one for Showtime and one for Joy. Not talking about the food... but look at the attitudes over there from some, and the answer for health testing and more are shown clearly over there....
> 
> The clearest statement I have seen in a long time..... "Its just a dog don't panic"   UGH!
> 
> And GON thinks they have done dogs a favor by stopping the dog selling forums so WE (breeders with a better attitude) cannot speak freely any more. Sad.



Very well said!


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## JuliaH (Jun 12, 2014)

I guess you guys have been threatened with lawsuits over the old way we did dog sales when Woody was alive, but why was Woody not afraid and it all changed only after he passed away?  The only reason I can think of is the threat of lawsuits.  It could happen, because the debates were always spirited, but what about a forum where no dogs for sale would be allowed, but folks looking to purchase or folks who know what to look out for could talk about it openly. 

There are only so many ways we can like one another's dogs and hunting prowess or cuteness before many read and few comment.  Some jump in to help when someone has a hurt or sick dog too, and I am glad that happens... we need to do that. 

As to the legal system, there are other forums where they have conversations that get pretty hot sometimes, and GA folk are all over it.

I would think the political forum would get into more trouble than the dog forums 

Julia


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## Murphy (Jun 12, 2014)

These test are great and seem to be only for Lab and Birddog people I have never seen a Coon dog sold with any certs or heard a owner say I just got his eyes and hips Certified.....
Yet night after night they run and swim thru the swamp for miles and miles and then stand on their hind legs up against a tree for what could be hours barking nonstop all to do it again the next night and I see very few dogs retired due to hips or eyes certs not being done....

Is this because of the bad breeding done in the Bird dog world?

Some Coonhounds are bred every heat year after year and in Orangburg SC at the Grand American you can find THOUSANDS of hounds for sale every year 

Bird Dogs are extreme athletes but I don't think they get near the workout a Well Hunted Coonhound gets late night in the swamps night after night  

Seems there would be more problems?
 Not badmouthing Bird Dogs just asking a Question would you want Squirrel and Hounds tested? 
What about the Fluffy lap dogs?


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## king killer delete (Jun 12, 2014)

Murphy said:


> These test are great and seem to be only for Lab and Birddog people I have never seen a Coon dog sold with any certs or heard a owner say I just got his eyes and hips Certified.....
> Yet night after night they run and swim thru the swamp for miles and miles and then stand on their hind legs up against a tree for what could be hours barking nonstop all to do it again the next night and I see very few dogs retired due to hips or eyes certs not being done....
> 
> Is this because of the bad breeding done in the Bird dog world?
> ...


One of the first health certs was the OFA Orthopedic Foundation of Animals started by John Olin owner of a great many Field Trial Retreivers and the owner of Olin Chemicals and Winchester. Large dog breeds are found to have Hip dysplasia. The OFA cert is a way for a breeder to know not to breed a dog with bad hips. Allot of the health certs are for breeders to know what they have as far as the health of the sire and Dam they want to breed.  To breed with out these certs is irresponsible. This goes for all the other health certs.


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## BobSacamano (Jun 12, 2014)

Murphy said:


> These test are great and seem to be only for Lab and Birddog people I have never seen a Coon dog sold with any certs or heard a owner say I just got his eyes and hips Certified.....
> Yet night after night they run and swim thru the swamp for miles and miles and then stand on their hind legs up against a tree for what could be hours barking nonstop all to do it again the next night and I see very few dogs retired due to hips or eyes certs not being done....
> 
> Is this because of the bad breeding done in the Bird dog world?
> ...



I will not say the majority of big time coon hound owners don't care as much about their dogs as lab/retriever/bird dog owners do but, it's NOT about did a dog get retired due to not having health testing done. 

You can have a dog with mildly dysplastic hips live long and seemingly pain free productive lives in all hunting/trialing arenas. You can have a dog with cataracts do great. You can have a dog that that is an EIC carrier do great.

But If you know a dog has the propensity or is genetically disposed for a certain health issue, would it not better the breed to not pass on those genes? 

Coon dogs do not typically suffer from EIC (exercised induced collapse). If they did, and you saw a dog have an episode, you would want to know you weren't breeding dogs that could pass on that syndrome. It's a pretty scary situation. especially if you were talking about a hound miles from you deep in a swamp. You would most likely kill your dog doing what it loves. 

Some of us (retriever people) take an awful lot of care and spend a LOT of money to insure we are raising, breeding, and passing on desirable traits in our dogs. One of the best dogs I've had was mildly dysplastic. I had him neutered and sold him to a great hunting family where he waterfowl hunts 50 days a season. Just didn't want to take a chance where he could pass on a genetic issue that I knew about to the next generation. 

I know its 2 different worlds and we're almost comparing apples to oranges. I had a guy call me wanting to use one of my dogs as a stud dog. He was a big coon hunter that had started dabbling with retrievers. When i told him my fee, and what i was requiring in a dam that he was breeding to, he thought I had lost my mind. He just wasn't used to the steps and cost we take in making good, healthy dogs, with the potential to be great field dogs.


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## JuliaH (Jun 13, 2014)

When we ignore good health in our breeding stock, we are certainly not bettering the breeds we choose to hunt, work in any manner,  play with, etc. 

Well said killer!

Julia



killer elite said:


> One of the first health certs was the OFA Orthopedic Foundation of Animals started by John Olin owner of a great many Field Trial Retreivers and the owner of Olin Chemicals and Winchester. Large dog breeds are found to have Hip dysplasia. The OFA cert is a way for a breeder to know not to breed a dog with bad hips. Allot of the health certs are for breeders to know what they have as far as the health of the sire and Dam they want to breed.  To breed with out these certs is irresponsible. This goes for all the other health certs.


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## JuliaH (Jun 13, 2014)

Here is a chart from OFA to show some stats.... look at the ranking, and at the number of dogs tested, and the number of positives. I am sure there are more breeds of coonhounds on the list, but I don't know those breeds, so I chose the Black & Tan, then chose the Labrador, the GWP, the Pointer and the GSP.  

Higher rankings are higher incidences of Dysplasia (sp?) in the breeds tested.  Penn Hip also is a well recognized testing agency, but I did not try to find stats there. 

What so many do not understand, and often don't care about, is that tests are not inexpensive. Neither is field testing, be it NSTRA, NAHVDA, AKC, American Field, etc. If you can train your own, that is a plus, but there are still costs.  (This is not just for bird dogs.... beagles and coonhounds and lots of others have field testing they do too.)  



> These test are great and seem to be only for Lab and Birddog people I have never seen a Coon dog sold with any certs or heard a owner say I just got his eyes and hips Certified.....
> Yet night after night they run and swim thru the swamp for miles and miles and then stand on their hind legs up against a tree for what could be hours barking nonstop all to do it again the next night and I see very few dogs retired due to hips or eyes certs not being done....
> 
> Is this because of the bad breeding done in the Bird dog world?
> ...


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## grouper throat (Jun 13, 2014)

Not to be critical but hounds are generally bred more due to ability. When someone whips a hound out to put it on a track and asks a few grand for it, the last thing I would want to see is hip clearance papers. Nose, mouth, handle, speed, and drive are all that counts. It really is trying to compare apples and oranges when you compare bird dogs to other hunting dogs.


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## JuliaH (Jun 13, 2014)

That is pretty critical grouper throat.... so you think hounds are bred for ability, which I agree with, but the other dogs maybe not?   To say that is to make everyone out to be not as good as hounds. I don't believe that for a moment. My dogs hunt birds, not raccoon and other varmints, but that does not make them less quality. 

I expect the retriever people feel the same way as I do. 

So, why is it apples and oranges?  Hunting dogs hunt, if that is what their owners want to do with them. It might be squirrels or birds or ducks and geese or quail and other upland birds, or deer or hogs or whatever. Depends on what they are used for, but to imply that hounds are better than other hunting dogs is ridiculous at best.

Julia




grouper throat said:


> Not to be critical but hounds are generally bred more due to ability. When someone whips a hound out to put it on a track and asks a few grand for it, the last thing I would want to see is hip clearance papers. Nose, mouth, handle, speed, and drive are all that counts. It really is trying to compare apples and oranges when you compare bird dogs to other hunting dogs.


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## grouper throat (Jun 13, 2014)

What I am trying to say is it does not matter if their hips are bad, as long as they can get the #1 job done then that is all that matters. As long as your dogs do what they are suppose to do then that is all that counts in most houndsmen's minds.I am not saying birds dogs are not bred on ability as we all know plenty of folks breed labs and whatever just because they are easy to sell; doesn't mean they hunt great. That has not occurred as bad with hounds and houndsmen tend to cull hard. Before you think I am just knocking bird dogs just know I have hunted behind GSPs probably as most here close to my age and know what a good pointer looks like even with native,running birds and not  them pen-raised birds. I am trying to say all the other stuff you guys rant about doesn't matter in the coon/rabbit/deer/hog hunting world.


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## king killer delete (Jun 13, 2014)

grouper throat said:


> What I am trying to say is it does not matter if their hips are bad, as long as they can get the #1 job done then that is all that matters. As long as your dogs do what they are suppose to do then that is all that counts in most houndsmen's minds.I am not saying birds dogs are not bred on ability as we all know plenty of folks breed labs and whatever just because they are easy to sell; doesn't mean they hunt great. That has not occurred as bad with hounds and houndsmen tend to cull hard. Before you think I am just knocking bird dogs just know I have hunted behind GSPs probably as most here close to my age and know what a good pointer looks like even with native,running birds and not  them pen-raised birds. I am trying to say all the other stuff you guys rant about doesn't matter in the coon/rabbit/deer/hog hunting world.


 First off we are having a debate about healt certs. But as a former breeder What I am going to say is that you want to improve your breed of dog. Does not matter hound, lab. bird dog or german sheperd. I want a dog that will hunt , get the job done. But i also want to carry on those great hunting lines with healthy breeding stock. Nothing worse when the mind wants to go but the body will not go. Now lets talk training and man hours. Training a retreiver and training a hound are very different. A well trained retreiver hunts for you. This does not mean that he does not have the desire to hunt on his own because a good one will. The well trained retreiver is under very close control at all times following direct commads in order to deliver shot game to hand.This cost a great deal of time and money and is a large investment.  The demands on his body can be just as hard on a retreiver as the demands on  a well trained coon dog. The retreiver can be exposed to very extreme conditions during the hunt. A coon dog can also be exposed to the same conditions. A coon dog hunts on his own. A good one has the drive and the will to push a big boar coon until he is treeded( SP). My question is why would you not want your dog what ever kind he is to be out of the best  stock you can get health and hunting drive? Now I grew up with hounds I have hunted deer with hounds, I have hunted over a night champion and I have hunted over a many titled retreiver gun dog. I owned my first bird dog at the age of 10. For me its drive and health.


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## JuliaH (Jun 13, 2014)

Ok, thanks for responding. I agree with you that a hunting dog doing what it should makes folks happy. No problem with me in that respect 

BUT, when it comes to breeding, it is important to know that the dogs have no genetic faults to pass along. And the stats at OFA showed the coon dog I found onsite to be more likely to have bad hips than labs or the 3 breeds of birddogs I used. 

Certainly not a condemnation of any of the breeds... Bad hips don't show up in puppies. Testing is not recommended until 2 years of age. By then, I, with my bird dogs, have a lot invested in finished, or nearly finished dogs to hunt or compete behind. I expect the other breeds to be a lot like that. 

Even if one does his/her own training, time is money, and there is still a lot invested to find out later that bad hips won't allow a good brood dog (male or female).  

Julia




grouper throat said:


> What I am trying to say is it does not matter if their hips are bad, as long as they can get the #1 job done then that is all that matters. As long as your dogs do what they are suppose to do then that is all that counts in most houndsmen's minds.I am not saying birds dogs are not bred on ability as we all know plenty of folks breed labs and whatever just because they are easy to sell; doesn't mean they hunt great. That has not occurred as bad with hounds and houndsmen tend to cull hard. Before you think I am just knocking bird dogs just know I have hunted behind GSPs probably as most here close to my age and know what a good pointer looks like even with native,running birds and not  them pen-raised birds. I am trying to say all the other stuff you guys rant about doesn't matter in the coon/rabbit/deer/hog hunting world.


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