# "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?"



## hawglips (Sep 20, 2017)

I once heard a Bible scholar say that in Jesus' day, it was common practice during worship for someone to recite the opening line of a Psalm, and the congregation would then join in and recite the remaining lines with him.   Meaning that when Jesus' exclaimed "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?", he was actually signifying to those present that His atoning sacrifice was finished, because everyone knew the words of the prophecy in Psalms 22 that followed.

Has anyone here heard this, and if so, do you know of any references to it?


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 13, 2017)

hawglips said:


> I once heard a Bible scholar say that in Jesus' day, it was common practice during worship for someone to recite the opening line of a Psalm, and the congregation would then join in and recite the remaining lines with him.   Meaning that when Jesus' exclaimed "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?", he was actually signifying to those present that His atoning sacrifice was finished, because everyone knew the words of the prophecy in Psalms 22 that followed.
> 
> Has anyone here heard this, and if so, do you know of any references to it?


Interesting theory to add to the many. Strange text though, Jesus having a God. As Bart Erhman would say, those quotes that would be controversial are probably the real words.... because if they were made up, it would be non controversial in theology


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## marketgunner (Dec 13, 2017)

Jesus was not quoting Psalms 22.

We are all forsaken ,  separated from God,  as Psalms 22 says ,until the Crucifixion.

Jesus, as God, had never been separated from the Godhead. Yet he was , because of Sin. 

The Creator became sin for us. Creation purpose is to redeem sinners.


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## Spineyman (Dec 13, 2017)

The Father turned His back on His only begotten so as to not look upon sin.  
2 Corinthians 5:21 

21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


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## Israel (Dec 18, 2017)

I am always pressed to this thing, to this understanding, to this and these confessions of Jesus the Christ:

I can do nothing by Myself; I judge only as I hear. And My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 

Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: 

 "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Are there so called parentheses around these_ at any time_?
In other words, at what point might Jesus say, this is now me (and _only me_) speaking/doing...apart from the Father...here...and here...and here?

The whole matter of "that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ" is for us so very deep, and also so very thrilling as to rightly keep us on the hunt, the seeking, asking, knocking that never grows old.

"How do you dwell in man, how can you fit, what does that look like, what is that experience?"

And never without answer.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 18, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> Jesus was not quoting Psalms 22.
> 
> We are all forsaken ,  separated from God,  as Psalms 22 says ,until the Crucifixion.
> 
> ...



I see it that Jesus became sin for us because we know we would have crucified Him, cheering on the folk that orchestrated the deed. Jesus was sinful in the eyes of the ordinary believers of his day--and was put to death by them. In this way, now that we know Jesus was God, we know the interplay of all which is God's and that which is of the world in the spiritual realm and in life in general. But Jesus never was with sin, nor did He become sinful.

21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us*, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
(*Jesus was sin for us who were sinful and judge(d) him sinful. This is the foolishness of the cross.)

Jesus was with out sin or knew no sin, but for the sinner blind to the will of God, he was made to be or made to be perceived to be sinful ( sin for us)--which is why he was crucified. He was crucified for being a sinner in the eyes of those who were deceived  by sinful natures or those who did not at all tarry with God. ( I ask all (if unknowing that Jesus was God) that he was "just" a man would you bat an eye to his death by the political authorities if it meant the security of your esteemed way of life? Would His death on the streets of Jerusalem register as anything of great importance?)

I suspect that many Christians today,  not knowing as they do now the witness of the resurrection and the gift of the Holy Spirit, would have been of the orchestra playing for Jesus' death along with those that did or would have been indifferent to it -- as just the death or martyr of an other zealot of just another noisy messianic sect. ( Is there not a bigotry, a bigotry fostered by security or insecurity, in Christianity  even today that some human lives are worth less than others?)

Jesus was made sinful to the world motivated by sin who judged him sinful and condemned Him to death. But Jesus was never sinful, nor did he ever take on anyone's sins on himself in that he Himself became sinful. He suffered for the world's sins. He bore them due God's great charity. This was God's plan and now we knowing this is what took place, ( largely due the resurrection and the gift of the Holy Spirit)  we are party to the knowledge of what is heavenly and what is of the world.

"He himself bore our sins" in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness;..."

Jesus suffered for our sins so that pilgrims could stand or kneel at the foot of the cross, or at the alter, or at the foot of their beds and cry to know Him in his Kingdom.  Jesus never became sin or became sinful for our behalf. He was whipped, tortured and killed because of man's sinful nature from which He was judged and yet He revived so that we might know Him as the Saint that was promised as to freeing, feeding and guiding His flock-- which was/is God's promise to the faithful and the promise of Himself faithful to man.

So no! God did not become sin. Jesus did not become sin in that he appropriated to himself the sins of the world. He took on the sins of the world, sin nature itself the great killer of life, revealing sin's depth and overcame with victory in order that we may partake of His nature-- once being blind to see, and deaf to hear, and dead to life in Him, born again to the relationship with God that man is supposed to have. It gives us hope and an example of how Jesus, and God's will can be the example for our lives.

So the Creator was never ever and He Himself did not become sin to us. But He became sin to us because the world-man- we judged Him sinful and the world was us and still is, a least, a smarting part of us.


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## marketgunner (Dec 18, 2017)

no, God the Creator of all things, the judge that condemned us became Sin, (guilty) , took the punishment intended for us. 

Judgement by man is worthless,  God accepted the sacrifice to forgive ALL SIN ,

 2Co 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 18, 2017)

Food for thought, bear in mind that  many men have died for another mans life, however, Jesus's death was different because the firstborn son was offered up to redeem the remaining family. The 2nd, third did not have to be offered because the firstborn completed the redemption of the family. Jesus redeems us because he is the firstborn. If he were not the firstborn of God then we would have no redemption, no restoration of what was lost in the garden, no eternal life, no heavenly place, no walk with God. Jesus has secured that back again as the second Adam. So, yes it was because of our sin, on a personal level, but more on our sinful nature that we inherited from Eve. The sinful nature is driven by selfishness, envy and pride. Man tried for generations to overcome his nature. But as time has proven it can not be cleaned up or improved upon. It would only result in a morticians best work of a made up corpse.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 18, 2017)

One might have a hard time establishing that all men are sinners and fall short of the glory of God without it pointing to our nature. Reason I say this is an infant who dies, or ..... say even Paul, he would argue that he had lived a clean life, attempting to serve God before his Damascus road experience. It's the nature within us all, some worse than others, that can not inherit the kingdom of God. This is why it's hard to convince all that they need a savior. Some people don't recognize a need. Others see it clearly.  That's why Paul was so unique, not as the chief of sinners as we would know it, but as one whom tried his best to serve God but realized that his work.... was just that. Whom realized that his good resume was not the gospel. So I say this thinking out loud, do I see Jesus's death on the cross as being directly for my sins past present and future, or do I see it corporately, for the entire family of God. ????? Something I will ponder


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## marketgunner (Dec 18, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> Food for thought, bear in mind that  many men have died for another mans life, however, Jesus's death was different because the firstborn son was offered up to redeem the remaining family. The 2nd, third did not have to be offered because the firstborn completed the redemption of the family. Jesus redeems us because he is the firstborn. If he were not the firstborn of God then we would have no redemption, no restoration of what was lost in the garden, no eternal life, no heavenly place, no walk with God. Jesus has secured that back again as the second Adam. So, yes it was because of our sin, on a personal level, but more on our sinful nature that we inherited from Eve. The sinful nature is driven by selfishness, envy and pride. Man tried for generations to overcome his nature. But as time has proven it can not be cleaned up or improved upon. It would only result in a morticians best work of a made up corpse.



He redeemed us because He was 100% God, 
He share in His Death because He was 100% Human, 

We do not inherit a sinful nature from our Fathers,  We are responsible individually.

Eze 18:20

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 18, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> He redeemed us because He was 100% God,
> He share in His Death because He was 100% Human,
> 
> We do not inherit a sinful nature from our Fathers,  We are responsible individually.
> ...


Did you really mean to say we don't inherit a sinful nature from our fathers???? Are you implying my literal father or as humans???? human nature??? 

       God is eternal and can not die? Who then died for my sins? If Jesus is God? Yea I know the argument, the hypostatic union. Funny thing is though, Paul writes letters back to encourage the new churches and to answer any questions where they may not have grasped fully. Not once do we see him explaining  the God/man, hypostatic union, God is three in one, triune,  etc. Are we to assume that the extremely monotheistic Jews accepted that their "one" God is actually 3, accepted it hook line and sinker without any question, debate or even oposition to such from their peers? Instead we see questions about food sacrificed to idols, how to treat women, etc. ????? It's the missing context.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 18, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> He redeemed us because He was 100% God,
> He share in His Death because He was 100% Human,
> 
> We do not inherit a sinful nature from our Fathers,  We are responsible individually.
> ...


 Nothing about the firstborn foundations from the OT. The NT does not stand alone. It's interpretations build from the OT , not contrary to it. Your view makes God put on a fake man suit and come down to earth pretending to be a man. I could go on and on, the Father is greater than I, I can do nothing apart from the Father, Jesus having a God, Confessions of you are the Christ, not you are God, etc, but it would be futile because you would then try to trump my verses with your verses overlooking then that you are essentially saying my verses are false.... thus a total breakdown of the discussion because the book we use as a standard becomes a pick and chose, and deny the other. I'm content that my views are contextural. And rather than argue your response, I will let you have the last words, free of my input or debate. Thanks for a thought provoking discussion.


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## marketgunner (Dec 18, 2017)

God didn't die on the cross , but He was separated from God, which is the result of sin, as death is the separation of the living. His physical death was real as our death is.
 We do not die spiritually when we die physically.  

Exe 18. says you do not bear the iniquity of your father, you bear your own.

How can we argue?


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## marketgunner (Dec 18, 2017)

I needed to add, there is a sin nature, we just did not get it from our fathers.

I do not need last word, I just believe obvious verses  without Humanistic bias that elevates flesh over spirit.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 18, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> God didn't die on the cross , but He was separated from God, which is the result of sin, as death is the separation of the living. His physical death was real as our death is.
> We do not die spiritually when we die physically.
> 
> Exe 18. says you do not bear the iniquity of your father, you bear your own.
> ...



But you said "He redeemed us because He was 100% God,"
It's almost like you are saying it took the death of God to redeem our sins.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 18, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> I needed to add, there is a sin nature, we just did not get it from our fathers.
> 
> I do not need last word, I just believe obvious verses  without Humanistic bias that elevates flesh over spirit.



Not directly but since there is a sin nature, and we are descendants of Adam?
Which means my Dad and his dad had a sin nature. True we are responsible for our own sins. I think since it is through genetics from Adam to my Dad, it's safe to say it is inherited.


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## marketgunner (Dec 18, 2017)

no,  Exe 18 says no.

We do both have sin nature but you did not get it from him according to the verses, You are responsible for your own iniquities.  

I might wear the same style of hat as my father or son, but it does not mean I got it from them. We probably got the hats from the same place though.

We are spiritual beings foremost over fleshly ones,
Humanism suggest the flesh takes presidence over the spirit which is backward, according to scripture.


C


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## marketgunner (Dec 18, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> But you said "He redeemed us because He was 100% God,"
> It's almost like you are saying it took the death of God to redeem our sins.



Jesus as God paid the price, of separation, from the God Head.( Death is separation, ).
A Holy God cannot be in fellowship with sin.

That eternal fellowship was broken at the cross, never had been broken before. Remember Jesus was also in Heaven while He was on earth.

If He died without being 100% God, we would be still lost.
He would have been a created being,
 If He was not 100% Human , we have no claim in His death nor blood

But being also a human that shares our flesh  and blood we share in his death and thus salvation


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## Israel (Dec 18, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> But you said "He redeemed us because He was 100% God,"
> It's almost like you are saying it took the death of God to redeem our sins.



You ever been so broken...so broke down in grief you can't even muster the strength to be angry about anything?

Me, I go through my days...often...contending with things that seem to want to provoke, seem to demand an answer of sorts that may not be without some anger in regards to the absolute contradictions I see, things that seek to frustrate the grace of God...and there I must seek a grace to contend. Or manifestly fail. The things a man might find in the earth. I don't think I speak of things in experience foreign to the believer.

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself"...as it is written. Yes, God in Christ...experiencing things. God, being accused of being evil, God in Christ accused of being the blasphemer, God in Christ...accused of being all that is false. In union they bore it, in union they accepted it, in union they uttered not a word against it. A plan. God having his perfect man...perfect toward Him, and perfect in finding only one thing in man...ignorance. No fault found of the creation did he utter.


Yes, I do kinda see God suffering Himself a death of sorts there, fully in the experience of all His Son was enduring.

Tell me...how would you "feel" if watching your son put to the test, He bore all to uphold your name as the merciful and gracious God? What would be happening to you as men, in all that was not of mercy, but in total contradiction to it...wrongly accused your son? Would there be anger? Would there be a wrath? But to "act" on those...would make the son who was upholding your name as merciful...appear a liar! Quite a place to be, no?


So, where does that all go? All the righteousness that is being contradicted, all the goodness and meekness that deserved answer in that righteousness...what happens to it?

We barely know what took place in Christ there. The things needing reconciliation...and how such reconciliation must take a toll. Yes, I do see God suffering as much "in the death of His son" that we cannot imagine it. And how the bearing of all that demanded a Holy and righteous answer...was indeed borne. And in who, and by whom. But this...is their total agreement. And this is whom into which we are called.

Yes...God was fully spent in a man. Do I believe there was a grief so deeply shared (have you ever been so lost in such "with" a loved one...you feel lost to any word of comfort to even share? A things so profoundly unsettling that it must simply have its course...?) Yes, man vented all his anger and frustration at the "way things appeared" to him, that not one insult was overlooked. Righteousness was so much more than "not seen"...but despised. Cruelly despised. Insults added to torment, derisions added to cruelest scourgings.

"The reproaches of those that reproached thee...fell upon me". The plan. The perfection...ordained.

Mercy would be made fully manifest...not only in word, but in person. And, personally shown.

Apart from the resurrection, we are clueless. That alone is the attestation of all that took place there, that man had indeed fully met God...and God was in all pleased with this meeting. In One man. This man we are called into.

What Christ "took" is in direct proportion to what He gives. As much condemnation that is outside of Him is for any who believe He didn't take it all. Some it seems, believe nothing of Him, that He in fact...bore nothing.  

But for the believer, as much glory to be found in Him is all of gift to those...who simply believe "in Him". And as surely as Christ was known of the One in whom He abode, even now Christ knows His own.




And men will show their interest, and where their interest lies.


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## Spineyman (Dec 18, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> Nothing about the firstborn foundations from the OT. The NT does not stand alone. It's interpretations build from the OT , not contrary to it. Your view makes God put on a fake man suit and come down to earth pretending to be a man. I could go on and on, the Father is greater than I, I can do nothing apart from the Father, Jesus having a God, Confessions of you are the Christ, not you are God, etc, but it would be futile because you would then try to trump my verses with your verses overlooking then that you are essentially saying my verses are false.... thus a total breakdown of the discussion because the book we use as a standard becomes a pick and chose, and deny the other. I'm content that my views are contextural. And rather than argue your response, I will let you have the last words, free of my input or debate. Thanks for a thought provoking discussion.



Jesus' Two Natures: God and Man

by Matt Slick
11/24/08

Jesus is the most important person who has ever lived since he is the Savior, God in human flesh.  He is not half God and half man.  He is fully divine and fully man.  In other words, Jesus has two distinct natures: divine and human.  Jesus is the Word who was God and was with God and was made flesh (John 1:1, 14).  This means that in the single person of Jesus he has both a human and divine nature, God and man.  The divine nature was not changed when the Word became flesh (John 1:1, 14).  Instead, the Word was joined with humanity (Col. 2:9).  Jesus' divine nature was not altered.  Also, Jesus is not merely a man who "had God within Him," nor is he a man who "manifested the God principle."  He is God in flesh, second person of the Trinity.  "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word." (Heb. 1:3).  Jesus' two natures are not "mixed together" (Eutychianism), nor are they combined into a new God-man nature (Monophysitism).  They are separate yet act as a unit in the one person of Jesus.  This is called the Hypostatic Union.

The following chart should help you see the two natures of Jesus "in action":
GOD 	MAN
He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2, 11; 14:33) 	He worshiped the Father (John 17)
He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8) 	He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5)
He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1) 	He was called Son of Man (John 9:35-37)
He is prayed to (Acts 7:59) 	He prayed to the Father (John 17)
He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15) 	He was tempted (Matt. 4:1)
He knows all things (John 21:17) 	He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52)
He gives eternal life (John 10:28) 	He died (Rom. 5:8)
All the fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9) 	

He has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)
The Communicatio Idiomatum

A doctrine that is related to the Hypostatic Union is the communicatio idiomatum (Latin for "communication of properties").  This is the teaching that the attributes of both the divine and human natures are ascribed to the one person of Jesus.  This means that the man Jesus could lay claim to the glory He had with the Father before the world was made (John 17:5), claim that He descended from heaven (John 3:13), and also claim omnipresence (Matt. 28:20).  All of these are divine qualities that are laid claim to by Jesus; therefore, the attributes of the divine properties were claimed by the person of Jesus.

One of the most common errors that non-Christian cults make is not understanding the two natures of Christ.  For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses focus on Jesus' humanity and ignore His divinity.  They repeatedly quote verses dealing with Jesus as a man and try to set them against Scripture showing that Jesus is also divine.  On the other hand, the Christian Scientists do the reverse.  They focus on the Scriptures showing Jesus' divinity to the extent of denying His true humanity.

For a proper understanding of Jesus and, therefore, all other doctrines that relate to Him, His two natures must be properly understood and defined.  Jesus is one person with two natures.  This is why He would grow in wisdom and stature (Luke 2:52) and yet know all things (John 21:17).  He is the Divine Word that became flesh (John 1:1, 14).

The Bible is about Jesus (John 5:39).  The prophets prophesied about Him (Acts 10:43).  The Father bore witness of Him (John 5:37; 8:18).  The Holy Spirit bore witness of Him (John 15:26).  The works Jesus did bore witness of Him (John 5:36; 10:25).  The multitudes bore witness of Him (John 12:17).  And, Jesus bore witness of Himself (John 14:6; 18:6).

Other verses to consider when examining His deity are John 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:6-8; and 2 Pet. 1:1.

1 Tim. 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."   Right now, there is a man in heaven on the throne of God.  He is our advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1).  He is our Savior (Titus 2:13).  He is our Lord (Rom. 10:9-10).  He is Jesus.

https://carm.org/jesus-two-natures


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## Spineyman (Dec 18, 2017)

October 5, 2006
How Can Jesus Be God and Man?
Article by Matt Perman

Guest Contributor

Equally amazing to the doctrine of the Trinity is the doctrine of the Incarnation — that Jesus Christ is God and man, yet one person, forever. As J.I. Packer has said, “Here are two mysteries for the price of one — the plurality of persons within the unity of God, and the union of Godhead and manhood in the person of Jesus. . . . Nothing in fiction is so fantastic as is this truth of the Incarnation.”1

The early church considered the Incarnation to be one of the most important truths of our faith. Because of this, they formulated what has come to be called the Chalcedonean Creed, a statement which sets forth what we are to believe and what we are not to believe about the Incarnation. This creed was the fruit of a large council that took place from October 8 to November 1, 451, in the city of Chalcedon and “has been taken as the standard, orthodox definition of the biblical teaching on the person of Christ since that day by” all the major branches of Christianity.2 There are five main truths with which the creed of Chalcedon summarized the biblical teaching on the Incarnation:

    1. Jesus has two natures — He is God and man.
    2. Each nature is full and complete — He is fully God and fully man.
    3. Each nature remains distinct.
    4. Christ is only one Person.
    5. Things that are true of only one nature are nonetheless true of the Person of Christ.

A proper understanding of these truths clears up much confusion and many difficulties we may have in our mind. How can Jesus be both God and man? Why doesn’t this make him two people? How does his Incarnation relate to the Trinity? How could Jesus have hungered (Matthew 4:2) and died (Mark 15:37) when he was on earth, and yet still be God? Did Jesus give up any of his divine attributes in the Incarnation? Why is it inaccurate to say that Jesus is a “part” of God? Is Jesus still human now, and does he still have his human body?
Jesus has two natures — God and man

The first truth we need to understand is that Jesus is one Person who has two natures: a divine nature and a human nature. In other words, Jesus is both God and man. We will look at each nature accordingly.

Jesus Is God

The Bible teaches that Jesus is not merely someone who is a lot like God, or someone who has a very close walk with God. Rather, Jesus is the Most High God himself. Titus 2:13 says that as Christians we are “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.” Upon seeing the resurrected Christ, Thomas cried out, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28). Likewise, the book of Hebrews gives us God the Father’s direct testimony about Christ: “But of the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever" and the gospel of John calls Jesus “the only begotten God” (John 1:18).

Another way the Bible teaches that Jesus is God is by showing that he has all of the attributes of God. He knows everything (Matthew 16:21; Luke 11:17; John 4:29), is everywhere (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; Acts 18:10), has all power (Matthew 8:26–27; 28:18; John 11:38–44; Luke 7:14–15; Revelation 1:8), depends on nothing outside of himself for life (John 1:4; 14:6; 8:58), rules over everything (Matthew 28:18; Revelation 1:5; 19:16, never began to exist and never will cease to exist (John 1:1; 8:58), and is our Creator (Colossians 1:16). In other words, everything that God is, Jesus is. For Jesus is God.

Specifically, Jesus Is God the Son

In order to have a more complete grasp of Christ’s incarnation, it is necessary to have some sort of understanding of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity states that God is one being, and this one God exists as three distinct Persons. This truth means, first of all, that we must distinguish each Person of the Trinity from the other two. The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit, the Son is not the Holy Spirit or the Father, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. They are each a distinct center of consciousness, a distinct form of personal existence. Yet, they all share the exact same divine nature/essence. Thus, the three persons are one being. The divine being/essence is not something that is divided between the Persons with each Person receiving one-third. Rather, the divine being is fully and equally possessed by all three Persons such that all three Persons are each fully and equally God.

How does the fact that God is three Persons in one Being relate to the incarnation? To answer, let’s consider another question: Which Person became incarnate in Jesus Christ? All three? Or just one? Which one? The biblical answer is that only God the Son became incarnate. The Father did not become incarnate in Jesus and neither did the Holy Spirit. Thus, Jesus is God, but he is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God the Son.

The truth that it is only God the Son who became incarnate is taught, for example, in John 1:14, which says “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” In context, the Word is God the Son (cf. 1:1, 18, and 3:16). Thus, it wasn’t the Father or the Holy Spirit who became man, but God the Son.

Likewise, at Jesus’s baptism we see the Father affirming, “You are my beloved Son, in You I am well pleased” (Luke 3:22). He did not say, “You are me, and with myself I am well pleased.” Rather, the Father affirmed that Jesus is the Son, his Son, and that Jesus is well pleasing to him. In this same verse we also see that the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and the Son, for the Holy Spirit is present in “bodily form like a dove.”

Why is it important to know that Jesus is specifically God the Son? For one thing, if we do not understand this truth, we will be mistaken about the very identity of our Savior. Further, it greatly affects how we relate to our triune God. If we think that Jesus is the Father or the Holy Spirit, we will be greatly misguided and confused in our prayers. Last, it is considered heresy to believe that the Father became incarnate in Jesus.

Jesus Is Man

It should be obvious that if Jesus is God, then he has always been God. There was never a time when he became God, for God is eternal. But Jesus has not always been man. The fantastic miracle is that this eternal God became man through the incarnation approximately 2,000 years ago. That’s what the Incarnation was: God the Son becoming man. And that is the great event we celebrate at Christmas.

But what exactly do we mean when we say that God the Son became man? We certainly do not mean that he turned into a man in the sense that he stopped being God and started being man. Jesus did not give up any of his divinity in the incarnation, as is evident from the verses we saw earlier. Rather, as one early theologian put it, “Remaining what he was, he became what he was not.” Christ “was not now God minus some elements of his deity, but God plus all that he had made his own by taking manhood to himself.”3 Thus, Jesus did not give up any of his divine attributes at the incarnation. He remained in full possession of all of them. For if he were to ever give up any of his divine attributes, he would cease being God.

The truth of Jesus’s humanity is just as important to hold to as the truth of his deity. The apostle John teaches how denying that Jesus is man is of the spirit of the antichrist (1 John 4:2; 2 John 7). Jesus’s humanity is displayed in the fact that he was born as a baby from a human mother (Luke 2:7; Galatians 4:4), that he became weary (John 4:6), thirsty (John 19:28), and hungry (Matthew 4:2), and that he experienced the full range of human emotions such as marvel (Matthew 8:10) and sorrow (John 11:35). He lived on earth just as we do.

Jesus Is a Sinless Man

It is also essential to know that Christ does not have a sinful nature, and neither did he ever commit sin — even though he was tempted in all ways (Hebrews 4:15). Thus, Jesus is fully and perfectly man and has also experienced the full range of human experience. We have a Savior who can truly identify with us because he is man and who can also truly help us in temptation because he has never sinned. That is an awesome truth to cherish and sets Christianity apart from all other religions.
Each Nature Is Full and Complete

Having seen the biblical basis that Jesus is both God and man, the second truth that we must recognize is that each of Christ’s natures is full and complete. In other words, Jesus is fully God and fully man. Another helpful way to say it is that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.

Jesus Is Fully God

We saw earlier that each Person of the Trinity is fully God. The three Persons of the Trinity are not each one-third of God, but are each all of God. Thus, Jesus is fully God since he is God the Son incarnate. Which means that everything that is essential to being God is true of Jesus. Jesus is not part of God or one-third of God. Rather, he is fully God. “For in him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9).

Jesus Is Fully Man

It is also important to recognize that when we say that Jesus is man, we do not simply mean that he is partially man. We mean that he is fully human — everything that belongs to the essence of true humanity is true of him. He is just as truly human as the rest of us.

The fact that Jesus is truly and fully human is clear from the fact that he has a human body (Luke 24:39), a human mind (Luke 2:52), and a human soul (Matthew 26:38). Jesus does not just look like a man. He does not just have some aspects of what is essential for true humanity but not others. Rather, he possess full humanity.

It is helpful to be aware of the false views concerning Christ. For if we have a grasp of what we are not to believe, it will give us a fuller picture of what we are to believe. One of the false views that was rejected at the Council of Chalcedon taught that “the one person of Christ had a human body but not a human mind or spirit, and that the mind and spirit of Christ were from the divine nature of the Son of God.”4 Since this view did not believe that Jesus has a human mind and spirit, it in effect denied that Christ is fully and truly man. Rather, it presented Christ as a sort of half-man who has a human body, but whose human mind and soul were replaced by the divine nature.

But as we saw earlier, Jesus is just as fully human as the rest of us, for just as he has all of the essential elements of the Godhead, he has all the essential elements of human nature: a human body, a human soul, a human mind, a human will, and human emotions. His human mind was not replaced by his divine mind. Rather, he has both a human and divine mind. For these reasons, it can be misleading to use phrases such as “Jesus is God in a body” or “Jesus is God with skin on.”

Jesus Will Be Fully God and Fully Man Forever

For most people it is obvious that Jesus will be God forever. But for some reason it escapes a lot of us that Jesus will also be man forever. He is still man right now as you read this and will be forever. The Bible is clear that Jesus rose physically from the dead in the same body that had died (Luke 24:39) and then ascended into heaven as a man in his physical body (Acts 1:9; Luke 24:50–51). It would make no sense for him to have done this if he was simply going to ditch his body and stop being man when he arrived in heaven.

That Christ continued being man with a physical body after his ascension is confirmed by the fact that when he returns, it will be as a man in his body. He will return physically. Philippians 3:21 says that at his second coming, Christ “will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of his glory.” This verse is clear that Jesus still has his body. It is a glorified body, which Paul calls, “the body of his glory.” And when Christ returns, he will still have it because this verse says that he will transform our bodies to be like his. Both Jesus and all Christians will then continue living together in their bodies forever, because the resurrection body cannot die (1 Corinthians 15:42) since it is eternal (2 Corinthians 5:1).

Why did Jesus become man, and why will he be man forever? The book of Hebrews says it was so that Christ could be an adequate Savior who has all that we need. “He had to be made like his brothers in all things, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people” (2:17).

First, notice that Jesus became man so that he could die for our sins. He had to be human in order to pay the penalty for humans. Second, this verse says that because Jesus is human like us, he is able to be a merciful and faithful High Priest. His humanity enables him to more fully sympathize with us and identify with us. I cannot help but believe that it is very destructive to our comfort and faith to not know that Jesus is still man and in his body. For if he is not still man in heaven, how could we have comfort knowing that he can fully sympathize with us? He can sympathize and be a faithful high priest and know what we are going through not just because he was once on earth as a man, but because he continues forever as that same man.
Each Nature Remains Distinct

The truths of Christ’s two natures — his full manhood and full Godhood — are pretty well understood and known by Christians. But for a right understanding of the incarnation we must go even further. We must understand that the two natures of Christ remain distinct and retain their own properties. What does this truth mean? Two things: (1) They do not alter one another’s essential properties and (2) neither do they mix together into a mysterious third kind of nature.

First, it would be wrong to think that Christ’s two natures mix together to form a third kind of nature. This is one of the heresies that the early church had to fight. This heresy taught that

    the human nature of Christ was taken up and absorbed into the divine nature, so that both natures were changed somewhat and a third kind of nature resulted. An analogy to [this] can be seen if we put a drop of ink in a glass of water: the mixture resulting is neither pure ink nor pure water, but some kind of third substance, a mixture of the two in which both the ink and the water are changed. Similarly, [this view] taught that Jesus was a mixture of divine and human elements in which both were somewhat modified to form one new nature.5

This view is unbiblical because it demolishes both Christ’s deity and humanity. For if Christ’s two natures mixed together, then he is no longer truly and fully God and truly and fully man, but is some entirely different kind of being that resulted from a mixture of the two natures.


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## Spineyman (Dec 18, 2017)

Second, even if we acknowledge that the natures do not mix together into a third kind of nature, it would also be wrong to think that the two natures changed one another. For example, it would be wrong to conclude that Jesus’s human nature became divine in some ways or that his divine nature became human in some ways. Rather, each nature remains distinct and thereby retains its own individual properties and does not change.

As the Council of Chalcedon stated it, “. . . the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved . . .”6 Jesus’s human nature is human, and human only. His divine nature is divine, and divine only. For example, Jesus’s human nature did not become all-knowing through its union with God the Son, and neither did his divine nature become ignorant of anything. If any of the natures underwent a change in its essential nature, then Christ is no longer truly and fully human, or truly and fully divine.
Christ Is Only One Person

What we have seen so far about the deity and humanity of Christ shows us that Christ has two natures — a divine nature and a human nature — that each nature is full and complete, that they remain distinct and do not mix together to form a third kind of nature, and that Christ will be both God and man forever.

But if Christ has two natures, does this mean that he is also two people? No, it does not. Christ remains one person. There is only one Christ. The church has historically stated this truth in this way: Christ has two natures united in one person forever.

At this point we find another heretical view to beware of. This view, while acknowledging that Jesus is fully God and fully man, denies that he is only one Person. According to this view, there are two separate persons in Christ as well as two natures. In contrast to this, the Bible is very clear that, while Jesus has two natures, he is only one Person. In other words, what this means is that there are not two Jesus Christ’s. In spite of the fact that he has a duality of natures, he is not two Christ’s, but one. While remaining distinct, the two natures are united together in such a way so as to be one Person.

To put it simply, there is a certain sense in which Christ is two, and a different sense in which Christ is one. He is two in that he has two real, full natures — one divine and one human. He is one in that, while remaining distinct, these two natures exist together in such a way so that they constitute “one thing.” In other words, the two natures are both the same Jesus, and thus are one Person. As the Chalcedonean Creed says, Christ is “to be acknowledged in two natures . . . concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten God, the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ . . .”

Evidence That Christ Is Only One Person

We will look at three pieces of the biblical teaching that, while Christ has two distinct and unchanged natures, he nonetheless remains one Person.

1. Both natures are represented in Scripture as constituting “one thing;” that is, as united in one Person. We read in John 1:14, “And the word became flesh and dwelt among us.” Here we see the two natures: the Word (his deity) and flesh (humanity). Yet we also see that there is one Person, for we read that the Word became flesh. “Became” requires that we acknowledge a unity of the two natures such that they are one thing — that is, one Person. For in what sense could John write that the word became flesh if the natures do not constitute one Person? It surely cannot mean “turned into” flesh, for that is against the scriptural teaching on the distinctness of the natures. Additional Scriptures relating to this line of evidence include Romans 8:3, Galatians 4:4, 1 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 2:11–14, and 1 John 4:2–3.

2. Jesus never speaks of himself as “We,” but always as “I.”

3. Many passages refer to both natures of Christ, but it is clear that only one person is intended. It is impossible to read the following passages, which clearly affirm Christ’s two natures, and conclude that Christ is two Persons: “For what the law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh . . .” (Romans 8:3). “But when the fulness of time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law . . .” (Galatians 4:4). “. . . who, although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped [that is, exploited to his own advantage], but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, and being made in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2:6–7).

Having seen that Christ is two natures in one person, and having also seen some of what is involved in this reality, we will now examine one of the major implications which should help us to complete the picture and our understanding.

Implication: Things that are true of one nature but not the other are nonetheless true of the Person of Christ.

As we saw earlier, the fact that Christ is two natures means that there are things that are true of his human nature that are not true of his divine nature. And there are things true of his divine nature that are not true of his human nature. For example, his human nature hungered, but his divine nature could never be hungry. So when Christ hungered on earth, it was his humanity that hungered, not his divine nature.

But the truth that we are now in a position to understand is that by virtue of the union of the natures in one Person, the things that are true of and done by only one of Christ’s natures are nonetheless true of and done by the Person of Christ. In other words, things which only one nature does can be considered to have been done by Christ himself. Likewise, things that are true of one nature but not the other are true of the Person of Christ as a whole. What this means, in simple terms, is that if there is something that only one of Christ’s natures did, he can still say, “I did it.”

We have many instances in Scripture which demonstrate this reality. For example, Jesus says in John 8:58, “. . . before Abraham was, I am.” Now, Christ’s human nature did not exist before Abraham. It is Christ’s divine nature that eternally exists before Abraham. But since Christ is one Person, he could say that before Abraham was, he is.

Another example is Christ’s death. God cannot die. We should never speak of Christ’s death as the death of God. But humans can die, and Jesus’s human nature did die. Thus, even though Jesus’s divine nature did not die, we can still say that the Person of Christ experienced death because of the union of the two natures in the one Person of Christ. Because of this truth, Grudem says, “by virtue of union with Jesus’s human nature, his divine nature somehow tasted something of what it was like to go through death. The person of Christ experienced death.”7

Have you ever wondered how Jesus could say that he did not know the day or hour of his return (Matthew 24:36) even though he is omniscient (John 21:17)? If Jesus is God, why didn’t he know the day of his return? This dilemma is solved by our understanding that Christ is one Person with two natures. The answer is that in regards to his human nature, Jesus does not have all knowledge. Thus, in his human nature he really did not know the day or hour of his return. But in his divine nature, he does have all knowledge and thus in his divine nature he did know when he would return.

Here comes the most fascinating part: Since the two natures are united in one Person, the fact that Christ’s human nature didn’t know when he would return means that the Person of Christ did not know when he would return. Thus, Jesus the Person could truly say, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” (Matthew 24:36). At the same time, by virtue of his divine nature, we can also say that the Person of Christ did know when he would return. Knowledge and ignorance of the time of his return are both true of the Christ, but in different ways. In his human nature, the Person of Christ was ignorant of when he would return. In his divine nature, the Person of Christ did know when he would return. Thus, Christ himself both knew and did not know when he would return.
Conclusion

We have seen the biblical evidence for the fact that Christ is God the Son, that he has both a divine and human nature, that each nature is full and complete, that each nature remains distinct, that Christ is nonetheless one Person, and that things which are true of one nature are true of the Person.

The relevance of these truths to us should go without saying. For they go to the very heart of who Christ is. Knowing these truths will greatly affect the way you view Christ and will make the gospel accounts of his life come more alive. As such, this understanding will deepen our devotion to Christ.

Second, having this richer understanding of the incarnation of God the Son should greatly enhance our worship. We will have great marvel and gladness at the fact that the eternal Person of God the Son became man forever. Our recognition of Christ’s worth will be heightened. And our faith in him will be strengthened by having this deeper understanding of who he is.

The union of Christ’s deity and humanity in one Person makes it such that we have all that we need in the same Savior. How glorious! Because Jesus is God, he is all-powerful and he cannot be defeated. Because he is God, he is the only adequate Savior. Because he is God, believers are safe and can never perish; we have security. Because he is God, we can have confidence that he will empower us for the task that he commands us for. And because he is God, all people will be accountable to him when he returns to judge the world.

Because Jesus is man, he has experienced the same things that we do. Because he is man, he can identify with us more intimately. Because he is man, he can come to our aid as our sympathetic High Priest when we reach the limits of our human weaknesses. Because he is man, we can relate to him — he is not far off and uninvolved. Because he is man, we cannot complain that God does not know what we are going through. He experienced it firsthand.

Finally, we need to be ready to defend the truth of Jesus’s deity, Jesus’s humanity, and their joining inconfusedly in one Person. Therefore, consider committing to memory many of the verses which teach that Jesus is both God and man, and be able to explain the relationship between Christ’s two natures to others.

May we look forward to the day when we see him face to face. Until then, may the joyful hope of this day inspire in us a great diligence in serving and worshiping him.
Notes

1 J.I. Packer, Knowing God (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1993 edition), p. 53.
2 Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (InterVarsity and Zondervan Publishing, 1994), p. 556.
3 Packer, p. 57.
4 Grudem, p. 554.
5 Grudem, p. 556.
6 Chalcedonean Creed, quoted in Grudem, p. 557.
7 Grudem, p. 560.

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/how-can-jesus-be-god-and-man


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 18, 2017)

Did God incarnate as man(Oneness) or did the pre-existing 1/3 of the spiritual Godhead known as the Son incarnate as the man known as Jesus?(Trinity)


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 18, 2017)

Spineyman said:


> Second, even if we acknowledge that the natures do not mix together into a third kind of nature, it would also be wrong to think that the two natures changed one another. For example, it would be wrong to conclude that Jesus’s human nature became divine in some ways or that his divine nature became human in some ways. Rather, each nature remains distinct and thereby retains its own individual properties and does not change.
> 
> As the Council of Chalcedon stated it, “. . . the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved . . .”6 Jesus’s human nature is human, and human only. His divine nature is divine, and divine only. For example, Jesus’s human nature did not become all-knowing through its union with God the Son, and neither did his divine nature become ignorant of anything. If any of the natures underwent a change in its essential nature, then Christ is no longer truly and fully human, or truly and fully divine.
> Christ Is Only One Person
> ...


I appreciate the time it took for all this. I'll refrain from disputing it. WOW, can I resist? Not typical of me, my test of will power


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## Israel (Dec 19, 2017)

> This view is unbiblical because it demolishes both Christ’s deity and humanity. For if Christ’s two natures mixed together, then he is no longer truly and fully God and truly and fully man, but is some entirely different kind of being that resulted from a mixture of the two natures.



One says mixture, perhaps another says synthesis, perhaps yet another sees it in some other way...

When I hear "new creation" the word _new_ has two real, yet not distinct nor contradictory, connotations. They do not exclude one another, but are in complete complement. New, as in never before seen, and new as in character of the life of "newness". New life, new man, new relationship.

The old can never apprehend/comprehend the new, it is all of what boggles and _seems_ contradictory. "In the newness" needs no explanation of "how will an eternity" not be boring, nor does it even know boredom as a thing to be considered. 

What can be bored, what lives by rote and ritual, even by what _it_ might consider "good habit" to itself _might be _considerably shocked at how much wider the gate has been swung open.


I think in some way Paul referenced this in things not lawful to utter, experienced of the third heaven. That "too much" that is of no benefit in seeking to relate, one knows it only in and when experienced, and Paul was persuaded this experience was not for himself, alone. He also says in another place of things presented in a surety, knowing he can never explain the trueness of them to anyone "if any man is otherwise minded, God will make this clear to him, also".


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## marketgunner (Dec 19, 2017)

It is better not to develop doctrine from English translations. It is a problem with English not being accurate in meanings

Jesus was God in the Flesh. He was in Heaven while on Earth.
He did not become the Son of God until He became the Son of man. He never referred to Himself as Son of God always Son of man.
The personality we saw as a human was God. 

Just as our bodies are not the real US. 

God was incarnate in the flesh, just as God the Son became man yet was still in Heaven. Separable yet unity.  The separation was evident when Jesus became sin.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2017)

Then God incarnate as man(ONENESS) instead of the pre-existing 1/3 of the Godhead we know as the Son.(TRINITY)


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## marketgunner (Dec 19, 2017)

He was one in Trinity as well as being  separable ,  Being a Human is not equal to being God. We are  spiritually created beings in human vessels, Same as Jesus, except He was God. Being a Human, He was obedient to God.  He was one in unity yet was and individual as sin for us.

 Jhn 3:13

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus was part of the Godhead while a Human on earth.
yet was forsaken while on the cross by the Godhead

He existed as God , a Trinity was made manifrest when , The Son and Holy Spirit are distinguished from God, designated as the Father.

Remember God the Father wasn't the Father until Jesus became a Son.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2017)

"He existed as God , a Trinity was made manifrest when , The Son and Holy Spirit are distinguished from God, designated as the Father."

"Remember God the Father wasn't the Father until Jesus became a Son."

That's more of a Oneness belief than Trinity. I think the Trinity belief is that the Son pre-existed with God always eternal. He was with God during creation. The Son actually did the creation. The Son shared his existence with the Father before the Incarnation. The Son incarnate as man.
The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated, and all three are eternal without beginning.


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## marketgunner (Dec 19, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> "He existed as God , a Trinity was made manifrest when , The Son and Holy Spirit are distinguished from God, designated as the Father."
> 
> "Remember God the Father wasn't the Father until Jesus became a Son."
> 
> ...



I think it is Trinity.  All exist in One,  

Was the Son, a Son, before Creation?  no, He was God

Heb 1:5

We are not aware on the separability of the Trinity until the cross and One personality endured sin, which shows the Holiness of God to forsake God the Son.

We also see separability when all three are mentioned in other verses,

Remember Jesus will send the Holy Spirit to deal with us, yet Jesus will never leave us as well.

Our statements tend to agree. 

Did you ever think, God has been shown to us a three,  maybe there is personalities of which we are not aware ?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> Did you ever think, God has been shown to us a three,  maybe there is personalities of which we are not aware ?



I think there is;
1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 19, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think there is;
> 1 John 3:2
> Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.



That is a very interesting bit of scripture...  Thanks Art!


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 19, 2017)

Does it not seem biblically foreign to use the term God the son?


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 19, 2017)

100% God and 100% man ???? I will not argue this for it is futile, because I can be 100% man and also be 100% human, however, any man who is any part God..... is no longer a man. Logic says that definitions remain a constant even in religion. It's like saying Trump is both gay and straight. It does not work


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 19, 2017)

How about the absence of the 3rd person [HS] at creation, the OT, and in heaven? I'm all about context, if you did not notice


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 19, 2017)

Our modern day scriptures are translated in such a way that it is hard to tell if it was honest or corrupt. For example, Early text said "Go ye therefore and baptize in my name". However the translators thinking "my" means Father, son and HS, translated it this way as F, S, and HS. Is that good translating or corrupt? Intentional biased or unintentional???? I don't know. It's not good translating, that's for certain.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 19, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> Does it not seem biblically foreign to use the term God the son?




Right.

However it does relational-ly. The Holy Spirit witnesses of whom biblical-ly ? And who said ya seen me, ya seen the Father biblical-ly?

Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, 2that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. 3Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." Genesis 6;1-2-3

 I think that the sons of God were once a bit more sober in their choice of spouse... and somehow lost their relationship when they over-reached. Maybe? I don't think Jesus over-reached.

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'? John 10:34.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> That is a very interesting bit of scripture...  Thanks Art!



A few more to ponder;

Hebrews 2:11
Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.

Matthew 25:40
"The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"


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## gordon 2 (Dec 19, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> A few more to ponder;
> 
> Hebrews 2:11
> Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
> ...




Amen!


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2017)

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

2 Corinthians 3:18
And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

"Unveiled faces"
Regardless of how we as individuals view the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it is God who removes the veil. It is The Father who leads us to the Son. It is the Father who opens our eyes to how we become co-heirs with his Son. When we finally see Jesus as he is and become like him.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> He did not become the Son of God until He became the Son of man. He never referred to Himself as Son of God always Son of man.
> The personality we saw as a human was God.
> 
> Just as our bodies are not the real US.
> ...


 
Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: , that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 

I do love the unity of God. Part of this unity includes us as co-heirs with Jesus. 

I really don't understand a Trinity believer that doesn't believe in the pre-existance of Jesus as the Son. The Word was with God. Col 1:16
"For by him were all things created."

Somehow you seem to be halfway between Trinitarian and Oneness. It's like a Oneness belief until the Incarnation and then you switch to a Trinity belief.

Jesus not pre-existing as the Son before the incarnation is Oneness. God incarnate as the Son is Oneness. The pre-existing entity we call the Son who came to the earth as himself is a Trinity belief.

I remember you said that we ourselves pre-existed as spirits. We were spirits that became flesh.
Were we not created?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2017)

The "body" of Christ. We speak of all of this spiritual stuff, what about the body of Christ? Heirs of the promise? Is this just spiritual? If so, what of the body? The physical resurrection of our 
brother. Co-heirs with the Son. Us as children. Jesus as a Son.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:7
So you are no longer a slave, but God's child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.  

Romans 9:8
So it is not the children of the flesh who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.

If a son, then an heir.
Heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ.

I would say we are more a brother to Jesus than Jesus being our God. Unless our brother is God. Then what does it mean when we see Jesus as he is and become like him? Unity? If you have seen me then you have seen my Father? 

Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

It's like we all have our own spirit, Jesus has his own spirit, and God has his own Spirit which is also known as the Holy Spirit.

That God is everything. He is in me and I in him. Unity. That eventually I will see his Son as he is and become like him. Who is in turn the image of his Father. Jesus is like Him.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> The "body" of Christ. We speak of all of this spiritual stuff, what about the body of Christ? Heirs of the promise? Is this just spiritual? If so, what of the body? The physical resurrection of our
> brother. Co-heirs with the Son. Us as children. Jesus as a Son.
> 
> Galatians 3:29
> ...




I think you ask good questions today. I will try for a good suggestion to your question ref. meaning of seeing Jesus as he is?

Simply I think that Jesus who is without sin or God is without sin or God's will is without sin. On the other hand simply we are not without sin and suffer for a world still in sin. So  simply we can only see Jesus as He is when we will be without sin in an existence without sin with all its attributes. Or if you will, when we are again as Adam and Eve, or the sons of God again to a sinless existence as they were once or as when men were/are the sinless sons of  God only then are human beings going to see God as He is as to "personality" and will etc...


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Col 1:16
> For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: , that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
> 
> I do love the unity of God. Part of this unity includes us as co-heirs with Jesus.
> ...



All things were created,  you re 100% spirit and 100% human, they are not equal.

When was your spirit created?


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> The "body" of Christ. We speak of all of this spiritual stuff, what about the body of Christ? Heirs of the promise? Is this just spiritual? If so, what of the body? The physical resurrection of our
> brother. Co-heirs with the Son. Us as children. Jesus as a Son.
> 
> Galatians 3:29
> ...



We are spiritual beings , Our Spirits are not God's but we live when we abide in Him , Without God's spirit , we cease,  eventually lake of fire


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

I thought my spirit was created during the creation then placed in my flesh at my birth. I don't think my spirit is eternal having no beginning nor end.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

I think God places his spirit in men. I think even Jesus has a human spirit as well as God's spirit. If Jesus was to be the last Adam then he would have to have a human spirit.
I would think that if Jesus was going to redeem us then he would have to be 100% man which includes having a human spirit.
Jesus had to conquer what Adam couldn't.


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think God places his spirit in men. I think even Jesus has a human spirit as well as God's spirit. If Jesus was to be the last Adam then he would have to have a human spirit.
> I would think that if Jesus was going to redeem us then he would have to be 100% man which includes having a human spirit.
> Jesus had to conquer what Adam couldn't.



well said,      define human spirit.


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought my spirit was created during the creation then placed in my flesh at my birth. I don't think my spirit is eternal having no beginning nor end.



your spirit  can exit outside of the physical realm and time. It was created but before the physical creation


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

Define human spirit. I think I see where this is going. How can a spirit be human? If it's spiritual how can it be human, etc.?

I don't know. That's a good question. Somehow though it's still a part of who I am. It's still the spirit of a man. It had a beginning. It was created. It's what will be saved and given eternal life.

I would add that we, as Christians, also have the Holy Spirit which is God's spirit dwelling within us.


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

were you condemned before your body existed?

John 3 18


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

That's getting deep. I'm trying to figure how one could be condemned already. Jesus wasn't born condemned already. Well I don't think he was. Good thought provoking questions.


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

Jesus was not condemned, He knew no sin.

Who else is condemned?  We are condemned as spirits. Humanity is the method where the sinful can be redeemed. 
By one all can be saved.


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

If that verse in Jeremiah is correct and I cannot inherit sin from my physical father, then How could I be condemned in John 3 through my physical father, (as we are taught).

The verse only says we are condemned.  

Well, we are condemned as spirits before I was born physically. I was created as a spirit, as you say, in heaven.

It this is true for Adam as well, his sin brought the curse on the physical world.   There was no sin on this new physical creation.  
Satan was here but being a spiritual being could not affect the physical as Adam being both could.

What other spiritual beings were condemned in heaven?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

Brings up many questions about Jesus. He was 100% man yet he was born without sin. I can see why one wouldn't think Jesus had a human spirit. Otherwise how could he be born without a sinful nature?

On the other hand if he didn't have a human spirit, how would he qualify to die for our sins?
If Jesus was to be the last Adam? Jesus came to undo what Adam did. It looks like he would have at least had the capacity to sin. Jesus couldn't be less than human. God can not be tempted yet Jesus was. I think Jesus being tempted was part of undoing what Adam did.


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

He qualified to die for the sins of others because He did not have sins of His own. Otherwise He was dying for His own sins.

By one man , all could be affected, is what we learn from Adam.
Adam's sin affected the entire physical world.
By Jesus death all could be saved.

Sin already existed here before Adam.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Brings up many questions about Jesus. He was 100% man yet he was born without sin. I can see why one wouldn't think Jesus had a human spirit. Otherwise how could he be born without a sinful nature?
> 
> On the other hand if he didn't have a human spirit, how would he qualify to die for our sins?
> If Jesus was to be the last Adam? Jesus came to undo what Adam did. It looks like he would have at least had the capacity to sin. Jesus couldn't be less than human. God can not be tempted yet Jesus was. I think Jesus being tempted was part of undoing what Adam did.


Ever considered how calling Jesus, if he was  God, the second Adam, would be an insult?


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

It depends on what comparison is being made

one man actions affecting many is correct.

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Jesus is not a figure of Adam but  Adam was a figure of Christ.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> It depends on what comparison is being made
> 
> one man actions affecting many is correct.
> 
> ...


What then is the "second"?      
Context; Adam lost his place in heaven because he failed in not being able to represent God to humanity. However, Jesus as the second Adam, regained what was lost, because he represented God so well that "if you have seen me you have seen the Father"


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> What then is the "second"?
> Context; Adam lost his place in heaven because he failed in not being able to represent God to humanity. However, Jesus as the second Adam, regained what was lost, because he represented God so well that "if you have seen me you have seen the Father"




i think that is Mormon doctrine,
Adam had a time of innocence in the garden. He was not to rep mankind.

Adam was already condemned as a spirit before he sinned physically. You were too.

Second Adam is not in KJV, "last" Adam is.

Adam is a type of Christ,  Christ is not a type of Adam.

Jesus was the Father, all you can see of the Father (spirit) is Jesus,  Physical expression  of the spirit.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> Jesus was the Father, all you can see of the Father (spirit) is Jesus,  Physical expression  of the spirit.



"Jesus was the Father" Again that is Oneness. Who came to earth? The Father incarnate as the Son or the always existing 1/3 of the Godhead known as the Son who incarnate as man?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> Ever considered how calling Jesus, if he was  God, the second Adam, would be an insult?



How do you view exactly on whom Jesus needed to be in order to die for our sins? Did he need a human spirit? Did he need human blood? Exactly how human did he need to be? 
I think what Gunner is eluding to is that Jesus didn't have to have his own spirit because a human doesn't need a spirit to be a human or at least that is not what makes one human since Jesus didn't have one.

Therefore if we all pre-existed as sinning spirits, there is no way Jesus could have a human spirit because these spirits had already sinned.

My question is if Jesus wasn't capable of sin, then how could he die for our sins? If God himself could die for our sins, even under the Trinity or Oneness belief, why did he have to incarnate as a man? 
Meaning suppose one does believe Jesus is God incarnate, why did it take God becoming a man to take on our sins? Again, why a man. Regardless of who this man is, Incarnate Father, incarnate already existing Son, or an adopted human Son.
Exactly what made Jesus a man? His body? His blood? His spirit? His parents? His DNA?
And why did he have to be a man?


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> "Jesus was the Father" Again that is Oneness. Who came to earth? The Father incarnate as the Son or the always existing 1/3 of the Godhead known as the Son who incarnate as man?



There is oneness, yet there is separability , Each is shown to be God.

It is not 1/3  but one shown as three. 
The best example  is three identical transparent triangles joined at each corner . One item but the three can only be seen  at certain angles


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> How do you view exactly on whom Jesus needed to be in order to die for our sins? Did he need a human spirit? Did he need human blood? Exactly how human did he need to be?
> I think what Gunner is eluding to is that Jesus didn't have to have his own spirit because a human doesn't need a spirit to be a human or at least that is not what makes one human since Jesus didn't have one.
> 
> Therefore if we all pre-existed as sinning spirits, there is no way Jesus could have a human spirit because these spirits had already sinned.
> ...



He had to human to die for one for all,  We are all related to and share his blood and thus his death. 
As spiritual being , we do not have a brotherhood or relations  since we are all created individually uniquely by God.  One cannot die for all because there is no relations as spiritual beings

Human do, We are spiritual AND physical beings.

If He was not God, He could not have paid for our sins,  If He was not human, We could not share in His death and redemption.

100% God 100% Human Capable of Sin. yet sinless.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> He had to human to die for one for all,  We are all related to and share his blood and thus his death.
> As spiritual being , we do not have a brotherhood or relations  since we are all created individually uniquely by God.  One cannot die for all because there is no relations as spiritual beings
> 
> Human do, We are spiritual AND physical beings.
> ...


Modern day beliefs say He had to be God and sin less to pay the price for sin. That's a NT only mindset which totally disregards the OT. He had to be the firstborn son of God. I believe Jesus was very much capable of sinning, very much capable of following his own will over the will of the Father. If he was without the sin capacity, then he was not man. Some say only God could pay the debt, I then say God can't die therefore it's not been paid. The modern day view makes Jesus out to be an actor, pretending to sweat drops of blood over the crisis of whether to go willingly to the cross or run and don't look back. He had a will, but chose to have faith that God would be with him. Yes, Jesus had faith.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2017)

Only the angels in heaven and fallen are eternal beings. Adam was made to be eternal but with the curse came "time". He did not surely die right then. But time began. The earth even groans in agony because it to suffers under "time".  Ageing, thus no more eternal life. His, Adam's/mankinds  offspring are temporal being. From dust and to the dust. However, God reconciled the world to himself through the man Christ Jesus, what Adam lost, Jesus regained, but only for those of the family where he is the firstborn of many brothers.


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> Modern day beliefs say He had to be God and sin less to pay the price for sin. That's a NT only mindset which totally disregards the OT. He had to be the firstborn son of God. I believe Jesus was very much capable of sinning, very much capable of following his own will over the will of the Father. If he was without the sin capacity, then he was not man. Some say only God could pay the debt, I then say God can't die therefore it's not been paid. The modern day view makes Jesus out to be an actor, pretending to sweat drops of blood over the crisis of whether to go willingly to the cross or run and don't look back. He had a will, but chose to have faith that God would be with him. Yes, Jesus had faith.



He was obedient , not faith.  Faith is evident of things not seen. He knew all as God


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> If He was not God, He could not have paid for our sins,  If He was not human, We could not share in His death and redemption.
> 
> 100% God 100% Human Capable of Sin. yet sinless.



Any comments on what Builder said concerning that God could not die? We're talking about a Messiah that was dead for three days. Now no matter how you want to view what this death was, ie spiritual or physical or separated from God, God could not die. Therefore I think Jesus had to have his own spirit and God's Spirit. It was God's Spirit that maybe left him when he died. God can not die. Jesus did.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> He was obedient , not faith.  Faith is evident of things not seen. He knew all as God



He didn't know when he would return. He only did the will of his Father. He only used his Father's power.


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> Only the angels in heaven and fallen are eternal beings. Adam was made to be eternal but with the curse came "time". He did not surely die right then. But time began. The earth even groans in agony because it to suffers under "time".  Ageing, thus no more eternal life. His, Adam's/mankinds  offspring are temporal being. From dust and to the dust. However, God reconciled the world to himself through the man Christ Jesus, what Adam lost, Jesus regained, but only for those of the family where he is the firstborn of many brothers.



How did God reconcile things in Heaven by the cross?

Who else is condemned by sin?

Adam lost what?  

Definitely  Mormon

Jesus is not Adam.  The earth will not be Heaven. Do you think the earth will ascend to be equal  Heaven?  
Do you not see LDS is almost Islam? both trying to get mankind to Heaven ?

Time and space only exist for sinners to be redeemed. Both will pass away.

Time is delay in God's judgement, it will cease,  

Rev 10:6

And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> He didn't know when he would return. He only did the will of his Father. He only used his Father's power.



no,  He knew all He had to do.

"It is finished". shows this plainly .

He was in Heaven while on earth.

Jhn 3:13
(Jesus Speaking)

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

He is God while He was Jesus


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> no,  He knew all He had to do.
> 
> "It is finished". shows this plainly .
> 
> ...



James 1:17
Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.

John 1:6
There was a man sent from God whose name was John.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> no,  He knew all He had to do.
> 
> "It is finished". shows this plainly .
> 
> ...


Paul asscended into the 3rd heaven???


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> How did God reconcile things in Heaven by the cross?
> 
> Who else is condemned by sin?
> 
> ...


He reconciled, meaning his curse was reversed, to those members of the firstborn [among many brothers] the 2nd, 3rd, 4th son did not have to be offered.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> How did God reconcile things in Heaven by the cross?
> 
> Who else is condemned by sin?
> 
> ...


Who else is condemed? All Adam's descendants. It's because of their sin "nature". Mankind tried for all of time to overcome his nature but has failed.
Adam lost what? A heavenly place,  relationship and eternal life. 
LSD.... both trying to get man to heaven..... I have no clue what you mean here or bring it up. I don't know if heaven will be on earth or elsewhere. I really don't care where so I have never considered it. I don't think the bible gives clear indication and I don't build from assumptions.


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> James 1:17
> Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow.
> 
> John 3:13
> ...



i do not understand.

Jesus knew what He was to do.


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> Paul asscended into the 3rd heaven???



i do not understand. Are you arguing with scripture?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> Who else is condemed? All Adam's descendants. It's because of their sin "nature". Mankind tried for all of time to overcome his nature but has failed.
> Adam lost what? A heavenly place,  relationship and eternal life.



Explain Jesus. Wasn't he a descendant of Adam? Was Jesus condemned as well?


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> He reconciled, meaning his curse was reversed, to those members of the firstborn [among many brothers] the 2nd, 3rd, 4th son did not have to be offered.



Nope,  Sins of the Father become the sins of the sons.
Eze 18:24

¶
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die

We are each responsible for our own actions

 Eze 18:20

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him

 Eze 18:21

¶
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Explain Jesus. Wasn't he a descendant of Adam? Was Jesus condemned as well?





no , sin is not inherited.  Sin is spiritual not fleshly. We were condemned as spirits . Being human is part of redemption of sinners

2Co 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


1Pe 2:22
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
 1Pe 2:23
Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

 1Pe 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Jesus did not sin or He could not have died for us but for His own sin


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> i do not understand.
> 
> Jesus knew what He was to do.



Just showing verses about what comes down from Heaven and/or from God.

James 1:17
Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.

John 1:6
There was a man sent from God whose name was John.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> no , sin is not inherited.  Sin is spiritual not fleshly. We were condemned as spirits . Being human is part of redemption of sinners
> 
> 2Co 5:21
> 
> ...



But was Jesus capable of sinning?

Another question, if someone was born righteous and never sinned, would they still need salvation by the death of Jesus?


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> Nope,  Sins of the Father become the sins of the sons.
> Eze 18:24
> 
> ¶
> ...


Pulling from EZE leads to a mess, your last sentence means salvation without grace. And we have verses that say the fathers sin goes through many generations, and verses that contridict


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> no , sin is not inherited.  Sin is spiritual not fleshly. We were condemned as spirits . Being human is part of redemption of sinners
> 
> 2Co 5:21
> 
> ...


Faith


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Just showing verses about what comes down from Heaven and/or from God.
> 
> James 1:17
> Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us *from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens.* He never changes or casts a shifting shadow.
> ...


This says the Father created?????


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> But was Jesus capable of sinning?
> 
> Another question, if someone was born righteous and never sinned, would they still need salvation by the death of Jesus?



yes, you sinned and were condemned before being Human 

John 3


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> This says the Father created?????



Jhn 10:30

I and my Father are one.

no, God we call the Son was not created either.


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> Faith



You can't have faith if you walk by sight,. He saw it before it happened.

I have faith the Falcon will beat the Buccaneers on Monday Night Football.    not much faith.


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

is faith required in Heaven?


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> Jhn 10:30
> 
> I and my Father are one.


The trinity does not allow the "Father" and the Son and HS to mix. Trinitarianism says the son created. It does not work to say they are "one". You may have a case if we were talking of the socalled Godhead created. But either the Son created or the Father created, Not both


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> yes, you sinned and were condemned before being Human.



Eze 18:24
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die

We are each responsible for our own actions

Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him

Eze 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

If I sinned before I was a human, what do the above verses mean? It sounds like a bit of a conflict. If I am responsible as a man, yet I sinned before I became a man. Then I was condemned before my spirit was placed in a man.

Now I could see it differently if I was born righteous and it was my responsibility to sin or not sin. Then I would have been responsible for my own actions. That I can understand but to be condemned before I was ever born?

When and where did my created spirit sin? To come to the earth for redemption? Isn't that a Mormon belief?

While I'm not sure why, I am born a sinner. Every man is. It came to the earth through Adam. I'm sure sin existed in the spirit world as Satan sinned as a spirit.

Adam was born sinless. God placed a pre-existing spirit in him. This spirit was sinless. The flesh of Adam was tempted and sinned. This is how sin entered the earth. 

Now ever since then every man but Jesus has sinned, before and after the Cross. Why, I don't know. Inherited? Sinful nature? Passed on from Adam? Who knows.
I don't believe there is any way around it. Even with the responsibility of our own actions. 

To me the whole concept of Christianity is there is no way around this concept. It doesn't matter if I inherited sin or even if it is from the result of my actions. It's here and it has affected every single man from Adam until now except the man Jesus.

Jesus was born sinless. Jesus did not inherit sin nor did he sin by his freewill. Jesus was not born condemned.

Truly there was something different about the man Jesus that allowed him to accomplish this feat. Divinity? Predestination? The power of his Father? The DNA from his Father? Freewill? Faith? Obedience? Training?
Planning? Cloning? Not having a human spirit? Not having a sinful nature? Not inheriting sin?

Personally, I feel it's mostly because of the power of his 
Father. Then again I'd like to think it's because of his freewill. His ability to overcome temptation.
Yet we know he wasn't operating under his will but that of his Father.

I don't believe this explains that he was his Father but that his spirit was in unity with his Father's Spirit.

It had to happen according to the plan of his Father otherwise his Father would not be God. His Father would have to implement plan "B" if Jesus had failed.

Given that, either Jesus was his Father or his Father was God. I'm gonna go with God was the actual and literal Father of Jesus. Jesus received his male DNA from God. Jesus was doing the will of his Father. Jesus was using the power of his Father. He was the exact image of his Father. Keyword "image."
Jesus was the beginning and end. God was eternal. God had no beginning or end.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> You can't have faith if you walk by sight,. He saw it before it happened.
> 
> I have faith the Falcon will beat the Buccaneers on Monday Night Football.    not much faith.


The KJ renders it like the greek, salvation is from the "faith of Christ" not faith in Christ. The ev, if I remember is "in" and it's not there. Several times.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Eze 18:24
> But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die
> 
> We are each responsible for our own actions
> ...


Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. I believe Jesus was born with the same sin nature however did not sin. Yet had to die. Just as he had no broken bones, it was not a requirement , but rather a fulfilled prophecy. If Jesus were incapable of sin.... then not impressed with that


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> The trinity does not allow the "Father" and the Son and HS to mix. Trinitarianism says the son created. It does not work to say they are "one". You may have a case if we were talking of the socalled Godhead created. But either the Son created or the Father created, Not both



Gunner doesn't believe the Son existed before the incarnation. Most Trinity believers believe he literally did and use the the Son "created" as proof. Also the Word was with God is used as proof.

I know we look at this as in Word only but they see it as the Son already existing. Also when Jesus said  "Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed."

Most trinity believers see it a Jesus always being the Son.

In the Trinity belief they can't mix. Each entity has a different mission. Yet most believe they have always existed. The three can even communicate with each other as separate entities or parts of the same Godhead. 
To me the Trinity belief is that the three have always existed in more than Word.

If they were never separated with their different missions than before the incarnation or ascension, then that's more of a Oneness belief. Although one major difference is that while the Trinity can be all three at the same time and communicate between each other, in Oneness they can't. They have to be in one form of the three. They can't be all three at the same time.

Oneness believe Jesus was only present in Word. He wasn't actually with the Father as a separate entity of the Godhead. The Son didn't show up until the incarnation. He couldn't because the Father became the Son. God can't be all three at the same time. He has to be one or the other.


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> The KJ renders it like the greek, salvation is from the "faith of Christ" not faith in Christ. The ev, if I remember is "in" and it's not there. Several times.



Gal 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified

ev is not here at all

yet it is here
Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus

and
 Col 1:4

Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,


Here is both
Gal 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Our Faith is IN Christ granted BY Christ in that He was the appropriate Sacrifice .

He gave us the faith to exercise


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> Gal 2:16
> 
> Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
> 
> ...


Point is, it implys Jesus had faith. Faith of Christ


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Gunner doesn't believe the Son existed before the incarnation. Most Trinity believers believe he literally did and use the the Son "created" as proof. Also the Word was with God is used as proof.
> 
> I know we look at this as in Word only but they see it as the Son already existing. Also when Jesus said  "Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed."
> 
> ...



God chose to deal with us in three was , God, the singular, God in the limited physical body and  God who is to deal with us universally.

Jhn 1:1

¶
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 
The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 17:21

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me

 1Jo 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 Jhn 16:7

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 Jhn 16:7

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Jhn 3:13

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

100% God 100% man.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Gunner doesn't believe the Son existed before the incarnation. Most Trinity believers believe he literally did and use the the Son "created" as proof. Also the Word was with God is used as proof.
> 
> I know we look at this as in Word only but they see it as the Son already existing. Also when Jesus said  "Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed."
> 
> ...


I'm don't know why anyone insists that Jesus created. All those "by" regarding "created by Jesus" are not by. They are "through". Through implies agent [agent of the new creation]. If I recall, through is Si and by is ev. Look at the greek. Biblehub is great. Any verse, click the greek on the top bar to see the break down. You can also see clicking on the left side bar the word, it's definition, it's number of uses, and other verses where it was used. The  use of "by" in place of "through" is simply corruption. Trying to win as would democrats or republicans might.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> Gal 2:16
> 
> Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
> 
> ...



I don't see it that way at all. It implies that Jesus had faith. Jesus had the faith to become the sacrifice.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> I'm don't know why anyone insists that Jesus created. All those "by" regarding "created by Jesus" are not by. They are "through". Through implies agent [agent of the new creation]. If I recall, through is Si and by is ev. Look at the greek. Biblehub is great. Any verse, click the greek on the top bar to see the break down. You can also see clicking on the left side bar the word, it's definition, it's number of uses, and other verses where it was used. The  use of "by" in place of "through" is simply corruption. Trying to win as would democrats or republicans might.



On this we agree. Amen


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> Point is, it implys Jesus had faith. Faith of Christ



We exercise faith in Christ not Christ's faith.  Christ gave us the faith to exercise ( faith is gift of God) ( I guess since He gave Faith to us, he had it) 
 We are confident in Christ completed work , not that He has Faith to complete the work. It is finished and accepted by God,  What is Christ's faith toward, what does He hope for?


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> I'm don't know why anyone insists that Jesus created. All those "by" regarding "created by Jesus" are not by. They are "through". Through implies agent [agent of the new creation]. If I recall, through is Si and by is ev. Look at the greek. Biblehub is great. Any verse, click the greek on the top bar to see the break down. You can also see clicking on the left side bar the word, it's definition, it's number of uses, and other verses where it was used. The  use of "by" in place of "through" is simply corruption. Trying to win as would democrats or republicans might.



i am not trying to win anything.

Yes , I use BlueLetterBible a lot.


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## marketgunner (Dec 20, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't see it that way at all. It implies that Jesus had faith. Jesus had the faith to become the sacrifice.



He was obedient to become the sacrifice, He did not hope to become the sacrifice,

 Jhn 17:4

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> God chose to deal with us in three was , God, the singular, God in the limited physical body and  God who is to deal with us universally.
> 
> Jhn 1:1
> 
> ...


John 1;2, "He was with God in the beginning. " The "He" they used should be "this" hmmmmm, the set up for what I have been saying, that the translators ruined the analogy John was making by inserting "he" before John rolled the analogy to Jesus. And God said, let there be light, John is making an analogy that Jesus is the light, required by all things. The He that they falsely used is translated like this. this many times 

afterward* (3), especially (1), fact (2), follow* (1), here* (1), hereafter* (1), man (1), now* (1), one (2), one whom (1), partly* (1), person (1), present (1), same (1), so (1), so then* (1), so* (1), some (2), such (2), therefore* (16), these *(179)*, these...things (1), these men (10), these people (1), these things (192), *this (737)*, this man (56), this man's (2), this one (4), this reason* (1), this thing (2), this way (1), this woman (4), this* (1), this...thing (1), those (2), those things (1), very (3), very thing (2), who (2), whom (1).


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> i am not trying to win anything.
> 
> Yes , I use BlueLetterBible a lot.


LOL, sorry, I actually meant the translators were trying to win. Not you. I enjoy the discussion.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

Jhn 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Two points. One being unity. Father in Jesus and Jesus in the Father. If you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father. Wow' what unity. I don't see Trinity, I see Unity, Oneness.

"that they also may be one in us" 
Even more unity. The disciples were not part of the Trinity yet Jesus wanted them to have the exact same unity he had with his Father. The image that he had of his Father. He wanted the disciples to share this, now how could this even remotely be possible if he was God? Do we become God? When we see Jesus as he is?

Second; 
"that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

over and over Jesus constantly reminds us of his God and our God. That his God sent him. That he is doing the will of his God. That he is using the power of his God to perform miracles.

That his God will resurrect him. That he will ascend and sit at the right hand of his God. That his God gives him everything; power, kingdom, life, etc.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> He was obedient to become the sacrifice, He did not hope to become the sacrifice,
> 
> Jhn 17:4
> 
> I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.



Again he completed the work his Father gave him. He glorified his Father. His Father was his God. He was obedient to his Father. It was his Father's glory. It was his Father's plan. It was his Father's will. It was his Father's power. I would venture to say Jesus thought it was all from his Father. That he was just the human image.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2017)

Faith comes from God in the form of a Gift. Jesus had faith. I can only assume that this faith came from his Father and given to the man and his son Jesus.
God didn't give himself faith. Jesus had faith. Maybe it was the God part giving the man part faith but Jesus had faith in God his Father. This is way more than obedience.

It's the faith of Jesus.


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## Israel (Dec 21, 2017)

Two things strike me as I pursue the Lord, how unlike me He is, and how much like me, He is.

The second of course, almost sounds heretical. He alone is the preeminent One, and here no matter of comparison is fitting or beneficial. In fact one might venture to say only Jesus alone is able to deliver from the pains found in comparisons. Yet, Jesus is plain in so many things I can't help but say/recognize..."Hey, I know a man just like that".

I know a man who is firmly learning "I can do nothing of myself", despite many misadventures when once believing contrary. I know a man who marvels when he finds faith...where he didn't expect it. A man who (though once thinking he had all the answers, and should) has no shame at all in saying "only the Father knows". A man absolutely in need of being shown. "The Father will show him greater works..."
And one who has sometimes found himself in a place where his own soul is so troubled he would also describe it as "sorrowful to death."

Now, in all of this there is no comparison, there is no assumption that the depths of these experiences are at all equal to the Lord. But there is a similitude recognizable. And I am confident that many of you also share the same. How much "like us" is Jesus Christ, yet never losing his utter uniqueness.

And this is where grace is also found. To me at least. Jesus never "had to" let us in on those things of Himself men so often find weak, or shameful, or speak to a deeply personal need. 

But Jesus does this, _without_ shame, almost seeming to go out of his way to make sure we understand he could be troubled, could walk as one needing to be led, needing to be shown. Finding things in a "marvel" that speaks to a willingness to be surprised. And as we walk, perhaps, we learn He has done this specifically, as encouragement to us. And though it is surely true Jesus never had any cause to a confession of sin (as we might, and do, as needed) His confessions are the very things that go to the greatest degree of relieving us, if heeded, of that. 

How much of pitfalls are avoided when we simply accept our own need? How many are found when by pretense or presumption we attempt to show "we have it all together..." or are completely sufficient to ourselves? How often in those are amends later required? And bot that seeking amends is a bad thing...but how much more to find a way that reduces our footprint of injury...that later requires amend?

Paul found that safety in boasting of his weaknesses, his necessities, infirmities. And in so, found something else..."that the power of God might rest upon him". That place of which the natural man shuns, of utter weakness and need, instead buttressing himself with lies and pretenses, is why the power of God can never be experienced by him, clothing himself as it were with all of falsehood. No man without Christ, can begin to believe that in the manifest admission of such weakness, God's power is seen. No "natural" man can ever care to go there, or desire to be seen there. Fools are all he sees. And God help us, preserve us, from seeking to be _wise in their eyes_.

We forfeit something too precious when caught up in seeking to make a sense of man's reasoning that is toward an ascension completely apart from the cross, ashamed of it. Yes, it makes no sense at all that the One who never needed it _in  any obligation_ save love would take up the thing that allowed Himself manifestly presented as all that God does not love.


His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. Deut. 21:23

How I had struggled in those verses, not seeking a reconciliation by denying any part, revising any part, or diminishing any part. 

How could this be, and stand? How could any...yes...any...who knew the scripture (Jew especially) not find himself absolutely and rightly excluding himself from the faith (or as _he could see it_...the presumption...of Jesus Christ) to occupy that place of cursedness...and yet be the Messiah? Yes, it would take a miracle to believe. For it would seem to the Jew...as surely "a sign"...that this man was under God's wrath. And so that squaring of "how could this...be that?" requires a light and interaction with God in the Holy of Holies, alone for resolution.


And this is what I find not only in that interaction, but also, no less, in the scriptures. It screams at me now, not shrilly, but as the one overarching query apart from man and his opinions, apart from all witness except the One who asks. The question comes from those few words found that alone establish what follows subsequent to them:



> And if a man has committed a sin worthy of death, and he is to be put to death, and you hang him on a tree:






> And if a man has committed a sin worthy of death



All that follows...of being accursed hinges upon that right there.
I cannot go to men to square it (for some will say, undoubtedly, I deny the scripture)...but in God alone, and from God alone comes this question...surely to me, if not to any other...in Spirit


"Do you see any fault in that man, any sin, worthy of death...anywhere?"

The entrance into all agreement is not an answer any may give for any other...each man answers for himself. And may not even say, is forbidden to say, what one considers is the "right" answer.

But as surely as I believe I have heard this question...from One alone, I really do not doubt each man hears it. And each man answers from a place where he cannot lie.


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## marketgunner (Dec 21, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Again he completed the work his Father gave him. He glorified his Father. His Father was his God. He was obedient to his Father. It was his Father's glory. It was his Father's plan. It was his Father's will. It was his Father's power. I would venture to say Jesus thought it was all from his Father. That he was just the human image.



He was an obedient a a Human  to the Father,  not just an hollow image,  

Col 1:19

¶
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 1:20

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
 Col 1:21
¶
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled


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## marketgunner (Dec 21, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Faith comes from God in the form of a Gift. Jesus had faith. I can only assume that this faith came from his Father and given to the man and his son Jesus.
> God didn't give himself faith. Jesus had faith. Maybe it was the God part giving the man part faith but Jesus had faith in God his Father. This is way more than obedience.
> 
> It's the faith of Jesus.



but God does not require to have faith, He does not suppose or guess or hope.


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## marketgunner (Dec 21, 2017)

Israel said:


> Two things strike me as I pursue the Lord, how unlike me He is, and how much like me, He is.
> 
> The second of course, almost sounds heretical. He alone is the preeminent One, and here no matter of comparison is fitting or beneficial. In fact one might venture to say only Jesus alone is able to deliver from the pains found in comparisons. Yet, Jesus is plain in so many things I can't help but say/recognize..."Hey, I know a man just like that".
> 
> ...


Duet 21"23  It deals with properly burying the dead quickly to prohibit diseases from infecting the people.  It is for the preservation of Israel .

Jhn 19:31

The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.


He took our shame and our punishment. He became sin.

But He completed the Law and the requirements.


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## Spineyman (Dec 21, 2017)

marketgunner said:


> Duet 21"23  It deals with properly burying the dead quickly to prohibit diseases from infecting the people.  It is for the preservation of Israel .
> 
> Jhn 19:31
> 
> ...



And not one bone was broken as per the prophecy.


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