# premillennialism vs amillennialism



## pigpen1 (Dec 31, 2008)

I am tired of debating purgatory and supposed errors in christian bible , so here's a new topic. When is the KINGDOM or millennial reign ? Is it literal or spiritual?


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## rjcruiser (Dec 31, 2008)

After the 7 year tribulation.  

We are living in the present (well, I guess some of us live in the past)....then Christ is going to return sometime in the future.  All of the saints will be called up to Heaven.  Then the Tribulation starts for 7 years.  After 7 years, Christ comes again to battle the antichrist at Armageddon and sets up his millenial kingdom for a literal 1000 years.


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## PJason (Dec 31, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> After the 7 year tribulation.
> 
> We are living in the present (well, I guess some of us live in the past)....then Christ is going to return sometime in the future.  All of the saints will be called up to Heaven.  Then the Tribulation starts for 7 years.  After 7 years, Christ comes again to battle the antichrist at Armageddon and sets up his millenial kingdom for a literal 1000 years.



Where is any of that in the Bible?


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## PWalls (Dec 31, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> After the 7 year tribulation.
> 
> We are living in the present (well, I guess some of us live in the past)....then Christ is going to return sometime in the future.  All of the saints will be called up to Heaven.  Then the Tribulation starts for 7 years.  After 7 years, Christ comes again to battle the antichrist at Armageddon and sets up his millenial kingdom for a literal 1000 years.



Ditto


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## fivesolas (Dec 31, 2008)

I think rj expressed the premillenial, pretrib view. There is also the postmillenial. I am much more amill myself.


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## PJason (Dec 31, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> After the 7 year tribulation.
> 
> We are living in the present (well, I guess some of us live in the past)....then Christ is going to return sometime in the future.  All of the saints will be called up to Heaven.  Then the Tribulation starts for 7 years.  After 7 years, Christ comes again to battle the antichrist at Armageddon and sets up his millenial kingdom for a literal 1000 years.





PWalls said:


> Ditto





fivesolas said:


> I think rj expressed the premillenial, pretrib view. There is also the postmillenial. I am much more amill myself.





PJason said:


> Where is any of that in the Bible?


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## Dogmusher (Dec 31, 2008)

As the old saying goes, I'm PROmillenial.  I'm all for the Kingdom of God.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 31, 2008)

pigpen1 said:


> I am tired of debating purgatory and supposed errors in christian bible , so here's a new topic. When is the KINGDOM or millennial reign ? Is it literal or spiritual?



Life is like a box of chocolate you never know what your gona get. I believe Shakespeare said life is a stage. So depending on the stage, the Kingdom and Hamlet is spiritual or it is not.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 31, 2008)

fivesolas said:


> I think rj expressed the premillenial, pretrib view. There is also the postmillenial. I am much more amill myself.



Nope....I expressed the Biblical view..



			
				PJason said:
			
		

> Where is any of that in the Bible?


PJason, 
I believe it is in Daniel and Revelation.  One of those books is before the apocrypha and the other is after it


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## PJason (Dec 31, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Nope....I expressed the Biblical view..
> 
> 
> PJason,
> I believe it is in Daniel and Revelation.  One of those books is before the apocrypha and the other is after it



To bad you can't provide any text


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## pigpen1 (Dec 31, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> After the 7 year tribulation.
> 
> We are living in the present (well, I guess some of us live in the past)....then Christ is going to return sometime in the future.  All of the saints will be called up to Heaven.  Then the Tribulation starts for 7 years.  After 7 years, Christ comes again to battle the antichrist at Armageddon and sets up his millenial kingdom for a literal 1000 years.



 ok what about 2nd peter 3:10, says but the day of the LORD will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with a fervent heat, the EARTH also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

  is your '' rapture'' going to be as a thief in the night...can JESUS come at this very moment? if so what will be left to come back to????


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## pigpen1 (Dec 31, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Nope....I expressed the Biblical view..
> 
> 
> PJason,
> I believe it is in Daniel and Revelation.  One of those books is before the apocrypha and the other is after it



 Are people going to be saved during your tribulation period???? and how?????????? Are the people in heaven during this time going to have their glorified body????


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## Buckmoses (Dec 31, 2008)

The only way Christ returns in through our actions in dealing with our fellow man.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 31, 2008)

Buckmoses said:


> The only way Christ returns in through our actions in dealing with our fellow man.




Amen! Nice to see someone cook without a recipe. Love is such a fundamentally normal  and plain thing that it is viewed as abnormal. And so will this, your statement, but I think it is very beautifully said. Christ returns or does not return because He is or is not in our hearts.


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## ToLog (Dec 31, 2008)

gordon 2 said:


> Amen! Nice to see someone cook without a recipe. Love is such a fundamentally normal  and plain thing that it is viewed as abnormal. And so will this, your statement, but I think it is very beautifully said. Christ returns or does not return because He is or is not in our hearts.




Gordo, i might be totally wrong, but your perspective appears to me as being oh so Gnostic in that comment. that is, God is within, not out there. that is, God comes and arises from within.  nothing wrong with the perspective at all. it probably is a minority view in the greater Western Christian Tradition.

Immanuel and Emanuel. 

Happy New Year.


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## pigpen1 (Dec 31, 2008)

roothog said:


> Gordo, i might be totally wrong, but your perspective appears to me as being oh so Gnostic in that comment. that is, God is within, not out there. that is, God comes and arises from within.  nothing wrong with the perspective at all. it probably is a minority view in the greater Western Christian Tradition.
> 
> Immanuel and Emanuel.
> 
> Happy New Year.



 But according to the premill  view he is physically coming back in bodily form to live on this Earth after a seven year tribulation....???


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## PJason (Dec 31, 2008)

pigpen1 said:


> ok what about 2nd peter 3:10, says but the day of the LORD will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with a fervent heat, the EARTH also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.



Ok but no mention of the stuff rj is talking about...



rjcruiser said:


> After the 7 year tribulation.
> We are living in the present (well, I guess some of us live in the past)....then Christ is going to return sometime in the future.  All of the saints will be called up to Heaven.  Then the Tribulation starts for 7 years.  After 7 years, Christ comes again to battle the antichrist at Armageddon and sets up his millenial kingdom for a literal 1000 years.





pigpen1 said:


> is your '' rapture'' going to be as a thief in the night...can JESUS come at this very moment? if so what will be left to come back to????



That's just it I don't believe in "The Rapture". I do believe in the second coming of Christ, but not in a third or fourth or fifth as some claim.


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## farmasis (Dec 31, 2008)

pigpen1 said:


> But according to the premill view he is physically coming back in bodily form to live on this Earth after a seven year tribulation....???


 
He will come back first, but not to earth. This is the rapture, not a second coming 
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,

Then the church will meet him in the air...

and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. ( 1Thes 4)

The church is the bride of Christ. 
just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing<SUP>[b]</SUP> her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. (Eph 5)

We will be going to the marriage supper.

7Let us rejoice and be glad 
      and give him glory! 
   For the wedding of the Lamb has come, 
      and his bride has made herself ready. 
 8Fine linen, bright and clean, 
      was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) 
 9Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " (Rev 19)

We will return with Christ at his second coming.

11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev 19)

Jesus will defeat evil and judge the nations.

15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."<SUP>[a]</SUP> He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
 19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. (Rev 19)

 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20)

Then the church will be reunited with those saved during the tribulation period and Jesus will set up his millenium rule on earth for 1000 literal years.

6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. (Rev 20)

The marriage will now be finalized (after judgement, before the millenium), heaven and earth will pass away and Jesus will set up his new kingdom.

 1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."


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## farmasis (Dec 31, 2008)

PJason said:


> That's just it I don't believe in "The Rapture". I do believe in the second coming of Christ, but not in a third or fourth or fifth as some claim.


 
If the rapture of the church does not occur before or shortly after the tribulation the the church will endure the tribulation, so can you explain:

10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. (Rev 3)

Or that we will return with him at his second coming..

Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. (Zech 14:5)

4When Christ, who is your<SUP>[a]</SUP> life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. (Col 3:4)


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## PJason (Dec 31, 2008)

farmasis said:


> If the rapture of the church does not occur before or shortly after the tribulation the the church will endure the tribulation, so can you explain:
> 
> 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. (Rev 3)
> 
> ...




See above...


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## pigpen1 (Dec 31, 2008)

farmasis said:


> He will come back first, but not to earth. This is the rapture, not a second coming
> 
> Lets take these one at a time..where do you find rapture?
> 
> and how do you seperate what you call the rapture and the scriptures that refer to christs coming as a thief in the night?


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## pigpen1 (Dec 31, 2008)

PJason said:


> Ok but no mention of the stuff rj is talking about...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



amen! brother he has already been here and the next time if I do my math right 1+1=2.....so that will be the second...


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## pigpen1 (Dec 31, 2008)

farmasis;2990821 

 
[COLOR="blue" said:
			
		

> We will be going to the marriage supper.[/COLOR]
> 
> 7Let us rejoice and be glad
> and give him glory!
> ...


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## farmasis (Dec 31, 2008)

10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. (Rev 3)

This passage never mentions anyone being "Raptured".

What do you think 'keep them from what the rest of the world will be going through' means?

"I do not ask thee to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one" John 17:15

This Jesus's prayer for the disciples while he is gone to prepare a place for them. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. (John 14)

Or that we will return with him at his second coming..

Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. (Zech 14:5)
We agree the holy ones will come with Him. Those in Heaven are the Saints they are the Holy Ones
Agree, and that will be the raptured church and the ancient saints before his death that he judged after resurrection.


4When Christ, who is your<SUP>[a]</SUP> life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. (Col 3:4)
Another area of agreement we will be with Him in glory on the last day, but nothing about a "Rapture" here.
Nope, because it already had happened. We can't return with him if we never left to go and be with him.


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## Mako22 (Dec 31, 2008)

pigpen1 said:


> Are people going to be saved during your tribulation period???? and how?????????? Are the people in heaven during this time going to have their glorified body????



Some will have a hellified body.


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## farmasis (Dec 31, 2008)

pigpen1 said:


> Ok what about this, you say that while the world is in this seven year trib the saved people will be at the marriage supper, what about those that you say are being saved here on earth during this seven years are they going to be part of the bride , when do they get a marriage supper? can the body be complete with out those?


 
After judgement...
 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20)

 9One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. (Rev 21)


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## pigpen1 (Dec 31, 2008)

farmasis said:


> [
> 
> We will return with Christ at his second coming.
> 
> ...



 OK you say we are coming back to earth after we have already been to heaven.. are we in a glorified body?

Do you think the white horse is symbolic or literal? remember you are quoting rev. a symbolic book...


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## farmasis (Dec 31, 2008)

pigpen1 said:


> amen! brother he has already been here and the next time if I do my math right 1+1=2.....so that will be the second...


 
He does not return to earth during the tribulation. (1 Thes 4:17) It is secret event (Col 1:26, 1 Cor. 15: 50-54) while the second coming will be visible to all (Matt 24:27-31).


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## farmasis (Dec 31, 2008)

pigpen1 said:


> OK you say we are coming back to earth after we have already been to heaven.. are we in a glorified body?


 
Yes.



> Do you think the white horse is symbolic or literal? remember you are quoting rev. a symbolic book...


 
I always tend to take the Bible literal.


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## farmasis (Dec 31, 2008)

pigpen1 said:


> and how do you seperate what you call the rapture and the scriptures that refer to christs coming as a thief in the night?


 
Because no one knows the hour it will come. Jesus doesn't either. God will tell him when to get his bride, which is Jewish custom.


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## pigpen1 (Dec 31, 2008)

IF the second coming is after the 7yr trib and the rapture has happened at the begining, couldn't those that are left here tally up the days from when their friends and family became missing  and know the day of his coming???but no man know's the hour or day........


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## pigpen1 (Dec 31, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Because no one knows the hour it will come. Jesus doesn't either. God will tell him when to get his bride, which is Jewish custom.



 then the ten virgins would be just like it is going to be at the end..5 were ready and 5 were not the bride groom came and shut the door then the 5 foolish came and could not come in because the door was shut....why didn't they have a chance like those you say are going to be saved after the bridegroom comes???


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## pigpen1 (Dec 31, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Because no one knows the hour it will come. Jesus doesn't either. God will tell him when to get his bride, which is Jewish custom.



2nd peter verse 10 says the day of the lord will come as as thief and the elements, the Earth will be burned up notice it says Day not Days...wheres the place for 7 more or a thousand more years....


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## PJason (Dec 31, 2008)

10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. (Rev 3) This passage never mentions anyone being "Raptured". What do you think 'keep them from what the rest of the world will be going through' means? 

I never denied the tribulation.


 "I do not ask thee to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one" John 17:15  This Jesus's prayer for the disciples while he is gone to prepare a place for them. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. (John 14) 

But it says nothing here about before or after

Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. (Zech 14:5) We agree the holy ones will come with Him. Those in Heaven are the Saints they are the Holy Ones 

Agree, and that will be the raptured church and the ancient saints before his death that he judged after resurrection. 

Where does it mention the rapture?


4When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. (Col 3:4) Another area of agreement we will be with Him in glory on the last day, but nothing about a "Rapture" here. Nope, because it already had happened. We can't return with him if we never left to go and be with him. 

It does not mention us returning with Him. Only that when He comes we will be in glory


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## pigpen1 (Dec 31, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> I always tend to take the Bible literal.



Jewish tradition teaches that when a king went into another country in peace he rode a donkey, but if he went in war he rode a horse...

so CHRIST rode into jerusalem on the donkey before he was crucified...he went in peace.....but when he comes again symbolically it will a horse representing power the white purity, the sword is his word thats why it is coming from his mouth...you can't take symbolic words and apply literal... If you do you can't understand them...just like when Jesus told peter to feed his sheep, he didn't mean get some hay a go to the barn, but if you take it literal he would have meant it that way...


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## pigpen1 (Dec 31, 2008)

If in the millennial reign we have our glorified bodies why did john only see their souls and not bodies?????????but he did see a great multitude robed in white which no man can number[rev 7:9] which came out of great tribulation....he saw them in bodily form..


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## farmasis (Dec 31, 2008)

pigpen1 said:


> IF the second coming is after the 7yr trib and the rapture has happened at the begining, couldn't those that are left here tally up the days from when their friends and family became missing and know the day of his coming???but no man know's the hour or day........


 
They won't know the hour or the day, but they will know when it is near.


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## farmasis (Dec 31, 2008)

pigpen1 said:


> If in the millennial reign we have our glorified bodies why did john only see their souls and not bodies?????????but he did see a great multitude robed in white which no man can number[rev 7:9] which came out of great tribulation....he saw them in bodily form..


 
Because they were raptured and did not come out of the tribulation. When raptured, you will be changed, in the twinkling of an eye.


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## farmasis (Dec 31, 2008)

pigpen1 said:


> Jewish tradition teaches that when a king went into another country in peace he rode a donkey, but if he went in war he rode a horse...
> 
> so CHRIST rode into jerusalem on the donkey before he was crucified...he went in peace.....but when he comes again symbolically it will a horse representing power the white purity, the sword is his word thats why it is coming from his mouth...you can't take symbolic words and apply literal... If you do you can't understand them...just like when Jesus told peter to feed his sheep, he didn't mean get some hay a go to the barn, but if you take it literal he would have meant it that way...


 
That is why rightly dividing the word is important.


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## farmasis (Dec 31, 2008)

pigpen1 said:


> 2nd peter verse 10 says the day of the lord will come as as thief and the elements, the Earth will be burned up notice it says Day not Days...wheres the place for 7 more or a thousand more years....


 

Sorry, you lost me.


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## farmasis (Dec 31, 2008)

pigpen1 said:


> then the ten virgins would be just like it is going to be at the end..5 were ready and 5 were not the bride groom came and shut the door then the 5 foolish came and could not come in because the door was shut....why didn't they have a chance like those you say are going to be saved after the bridegroom comes???


 
They will, during tribulation.


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## farmasis (Dec 31, 2008)

PJason said:


> 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. (Rev 3) This passage never mentions anyone being "Raptured". What do you think 'keep them from what the rest of the world will be going through' means?
> 
> I never denied the tribulation.
> 
> ...


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## farmasis (Dec 31, 2008)

Happy New Year's guys.

Either we will be raptured together, as I believe scripture says, or we will endure tribulation together eventhough scripture says we will not.

Either way, we will be with the Lord.

So, I will see you here, there or in the air.....


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## Ronnie T (Dec 31, 2008)

Although there doesn't appear to be a real solid answer to this question, it's my belief that Christ will never set foot on this earth again.  That He will return on that chosen day and it will be a very busy day.
Several books, movies and plays written in the last 80 or 90 years has turned some complicated verses in Revelation into the doctrine of tribulation.  I just don't think I buy it.
But, like farmasis says, one day we'll know.  See ya then.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Although there doesn't appear to be a real solid answer to this question, it's my belief that Christ will never set foot on this earth again.  That He will return on that chosen day and it will be a very busy day.
> Several books, movies and plays written in the last 80 or 90 years has turned some complicated verses in Revelation into the doctrine of tribulation.  I just don't think I buy it.
> But, like farmasis says, one day we'll know.  See ya then.



 I agree, but these that believe in the literal 1000 yr reign where Christ will live in bodily form here on Earth just doesn't line up with Christ's teachings throughout the new testament.... Luke 17:20-21 the Pharisees wanted to know about the observation of the coming of the kingdom, and  Jesus answered and said the kingdom cometh not with observation, but the kingdom is within you....so this along with John 18:36 Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world and he says now is his kingdom not from hence... and why did he say he was going to prepare a place for us and when he come again to receive us unto his self that we may be with him forever more? if he planned on bringing us back here???


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> They will, during tribulation.



 Why get prepared now, why not just wait till then????????? live it up now if you will have another chance??? thats a dangerous doctrine!!!


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## mtnwoman (Jan 1, 2009)

Good thread guys.

I'm pretrib myself and if I'm wrong I'll endure the tribulation, too.

But besides that I wanted to mention that my pastor makes a trip to Israel every year. He takes with him whoever can go. They go up to petra and hide  new testaments in the caves. That is because it is believed
that the Jews will hide there during the tribulation, which will be obvious to the rest of the world that Jesus is who He says He is after the rapture. The scales will fall from the eyes of the Jews, as they were temporarily blinded so we, the gentiles, could be grafted into the vine.

That's why I believe that people can be saved during the tribulation, is because the Jews will not be included in the rapture, unless they are messianic Jews.

I pretty much believe as farmasis does in how tribulation and the rapture will go.

And if I'm wrong, too, then I'll see ya in heaven one way or another.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Why get prepared now, why not just wait till then????????? live it up now if you will have another chance??? thats a dangerous doctrine!!!



When someone says that to me, I say well you might die before the tribulation...then you're lost.


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## creation's_cause (Jan 1, 2009)

My family and I approach the rapture and tribulation like we are a team preparing for the "final game"...we have to be prepared to play all the way to the end, strongly....late in the fouth quarter is not time to be worn down, tired and give up in deception....we prepare like we may have to endure, at least some, probably not all of the tribulation, but having faith in the final outcome and will be prepared to endure as long as God calls us to endure....always knowing our God is faithful and true and his plan will be perfect in it's completion.


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## Banjo (Jan 1, 2009)

> I always tend to take the Bible literal.



What about the beasts with all the heads....

Or an easier one:  God says He owns the cattle on a thousand hills....Does He?  Or is this symbolic of owning everything?


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## Banjo (Jan 1, 2009)

70 A.D.....

Jesus came in judgment.  Ask Jerusalem.


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## creation's_cause (Jan 1, 2009)

I find it rather straightforward throughout Revelation in terms of symbolisms and literal meanings....the context describes everything as literal or figurative....and in all cases, interprets itself (with the help of some other scriptures too)....for specific example....the first beast in Rev 13....from the context and several uses of similies, scripture clearly interprets this to be a man (in human-form), an authority figure who is given power by another, (the dragon) clearly satan, in the form of a man (human-form)...again I have no issues distinguishing between the two, literal meanings and symbolism....do have any other specific examples where it is unclear to you.....and yes, God does own all the cattle on all the hillsides, everywhere....figuratively and literally....as well as every penny I have in the bank and in my wallet...he is just much more patient in his ownership, than I am in my stewardship.

I agree God judged Jerusalem in approx 70AD, stay tuned and we will see another round of judgment develop exactly as written, in the days and years ahead....we will have no problems matching the coming events with scripture I assure you of this...


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

Banjo said:


> 70 A.D.....
> 
> Jesus came in judgment.  Ask Jerusalem.



 That's right just read Josephus's writings from 66 thru 70a.d. Women in jerusalem having to eat their children and remember John and the rest of the first century christian suffered under roman emperors like Nero and Domitian. They suffered more than any Christians ever...READ Revelation 1: I John, who also am your brother and companion in TRIBULATION and in THE KINGDOM and patients of Jesus Christ [kjv]..... Now hows was John in the tribulation and the kingdom if they are yet to come????? How was any of those John  was writing to going to get any comfort from what he was writing if it didn't pertain to them then....was the Corinthian letters wrote to those at Corinth about what was going on there when Paul wrote them  or  for a future time???lol Please explain Rev1:9???? [TRIB and KINGDOM]


----------



## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

Banjo said:


> What about the beasts with all the heads....
> 
> Or an easier one: God says He owns the cattle on a thousand hills....Does He? Or is this symbolic of owning everything?


 
Tend to take it literal, to me means that leans to giving literal preference over symbolic, not that everything is literal.

God owning the cattle on 1000 hills is literal and symbolic.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> When someone says that to me, I say well you might die before the tribulation...then you're lost.



Thats not what Farmasis said, he said those 5 foolish virgins will have another chance  to be saved....what about the rich man will he have another chance too???


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Why get prepared now, why not just wait till then????????? live it up now if you will have another chance??? thats a dangerous doctrine!!!


 
Because today is the day of salvation.
Will grace abound during the tribulation, or will there be much suffering? If someone cannot accept Christ now without persecution like the world has never seen, how many will accept him with the promise of death if they do? Not many will be able to endure. And if you die today, your fate is sealed. It is not a second chance.


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Thats not what Farmasis said, he said those 5 foolish virgins will have another chance to be saved....what about the rich man will he have another chance too???


That is not what I said.


----------



## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I agree, but these that believe in the literal 1000 yr reign where Christ will live in bodily form here on Earth just doesn't line up with Christ's teachings throughout the new testament.... Luke 17:20-21 the Pharisees wanted to know about the observation of the coming of the kingdom, and Jesus answered and said the kingdom cometh not with observation, but the kingdom is within you....so this along with John 18:36 Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world and he says now is his kingdom not from hence... and why did he say he was going to prepare a place for us and when he come again to receive us unto his self that we may be with him forever more? if he planned on bringing us back here???


 
Will not the meek inherit the earth?

He is preparing a place for us. That is what the bridegroom does.

His kingdom is not of this world, that is why heaven and earth will pass away and New Jerusalem will be created.


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

Banjo said:


> 70 A.D.....
> 
> Jesus came in judgment. Ask Jerusalem.


 
Was this the end of tribulation?
Many nations came under judgement, ask Soddom and Gommorah, but not all nations yet.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Tend to take it literal, to me means that leans to giving literal preference over symbolic, not that everything is literal.
> 
> God owning the cattle on 1000 hills is literal and symbolic.



Rev. is symbolic it has more symbolic language than any other book in the Bible....you can not read it literal and get true meaning......just like JESUS told his disciples one time about his words being spiritual and  that's why they  couldn't understand what he was talking about...they were thinking literal or carnal....he told them eat my flesh and drink my blood...they were thinking literal.....the wine and bread were/are symbolic.....


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Was this the end of tribulation?
> Many nations came under judgement, ask Soddom and Gommorah, but not all nations yet.



 Read Matthew chapter 24 8-26 is dealing with Judaea vrs16. these verses are talking about what is going to happen in jerusalem in 70ad...verse 21 says for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.....after vrs 26 notice how the language changes from Judaea in 16 to the nations of the whole world in 27-30... this chapter has two different times it is talking about.....


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Rev. is symbolic it has more symbolic language than any other book in the Bible....you can not read it literal and get true meaning......just like JESUS told his disciples one time about his words being spiritual and that's why they couldn't understand what he was talking about...they were thinking literal or carnal....he told them eat my flesh and drink my blood...they were thinking literal.....the wine and bread were/are symbolic.....


 
The language may in fact be symbolic, but the context is literal. Jesus may in fact return on a white horse, or not. But, he will come and we will be with him. I doubt a literal sword will come from his mouth, but the sword will be his spoken word. But, it will come and it will act as a sword.


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Read Matthew chapter 24 8-26 is dealing with Judaea vrs16. these verses are talking about what is going to happen in jerusalem in 70ad...verse 21 says for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.....after vrs 26 notice how the language changes from Judaea in 16 to the nations of the whole world in 27-30... this chapter has two different times it is talking about.....


 
So, are you saying tribulation has already happened?
If so, I got a few questions for you.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> The language may in fact be symbolic, but the context is literal. Jesus may in fact return on a white horse, or not. But, he will come and we will be with him. I doubt a literal sword will come from his mouth, but the sword will be his spoken word. But, it will come and it will act as a sword.



it has already came that's what we are reading , the Bible, his word and sword he has already passed judgement on this earth....his word is judging us every day it ain't gonna change or be added to....the bibles says the last enemy is death....he already conquered death, he-ll and the grave...read 1st cor.15:26-27.....last enemy Death...[what is left to fight]...believe in me and you shall never die....[already done]


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> So, are you saying tribulation has already happened?
> If so, I got a few questions for you.



show me where it says seven year tribulation in the bible??also show me that God's people will not suffer tribulation??explain rev1:9 john says he is in tribulation, and in the kingdom of Jesus.....how was he in those back then???

I believe it will be like 2nd peter ch 3:10...he will come get us and destroy the earth...Just like  the examples in LUKE 17:26-29..as it was in the days of Noah he went in the ark and on the same day judgment fell. nobody else got on board.....as it was in the days of lot and on the same day lot was delivered in rained fire and brimstone and destroyed them all...did anyone have a second chance NO..so how does these examples line up with your doctrine??? there was nobody saved after Gods people were delivered....  this does line up with 2nd peter 3:10 read them and let me know..


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> it has already came that's what we are reading , the Bible, his word and sword he has already passed judgement on this earth....his word is judging us every day it ain't gonna change or be added to....the bibles says the last enemy is death....he already conquered death, he-ll and the grave...read 1st cor.15:26-27.....last enemy Death...[what is left to fight]...believe in me and you shall never die....[already done]


 
So evil is defeated.

That is comforting.

Satan is dead and evil no longer exists.

Death no longer exists either.

Everything is done.


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

You don't like direct questions or direct answers, do you?



pigpen1 said:


> show me where it says seven year tribulation in the bible??


 
21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. (Matt 24)


 15 That day will be a day of wrath, 
       a day of distress and anguish, 
       a day of trouble and ruin, 
       a day of darkness and gloom, 
       a day of clouds and blackness, 
 16 a day of trumpet and battle cry 
       against the fortified cities 
       and against the corner towers. 
 17 I will bring distress on the people 
       and they will walk like blind men, 
       because they have sinned against the LORD. 
       Their blood will be poured out like dust 
       and their entrails like filth.  18 Neither their silver nor their gold 
       will be able to save them 
       on the day of the LORD's wrath. 
       In the fire of his jealousy 
       the whole world will be consumed, 
       for he will make a sudden end 
       of all who live in the earth." (Zeph 1)

 1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. (Dan 12)




> also show me that God's people will not suffer tribulation??


 
[Pss 97:10] Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; *he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.* 

[Rom 5:9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, *we shall be saved from wrath through him*. 

[Isa 57:1] The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and *merciful men are taken away*, none considering that *the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.* 

[Mal 3:17] And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and *I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.*

[2Tim 4:18] And *the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom*: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. 


"*For God hath not appointed us to wrath*, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," (1 Thessalonians 5:9) 

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that *ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass*, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36) 

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] *Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come*." (1 Thessalonians 1:10) 
 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, *I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."* 
(Revelation 3:10) 

But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise <SUP>[a]</SUP> will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. (Dan 12)



> explain rev1:9 john says he is in tribulation, and in the kingdom of Jesus.....how was he in those back then???


 
Nobody said Christians would not be troubled.



> I believe it will be like 2nd peter ch 3:10...he will come get us and destroy the earth...Just like the examples in LUKE 17:26-29..as it was in the days of Noah he went in the ark and on the same day judgment fell. nobody else got on board.....as it was in the days of lot and on the same day lot was delivered in rained fire and brimstone and destroyed them all...did anyone have a second chance NO..so how does these examples line up with your doctrine??? there was nobody saved after Gods people were delivered.... this does line up with 2nd peter 3:10 read them and let me know..


 
He will come and get us, then take us to prepare us a bride, then we will return with him when he destroys the world. There is not a second chance, but Jesus will reconcile Israel to himself during the tribulation. Those that died for him will be saved. Those who survived the tribulation by denyiong the beast will be saved. It's all in there.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> So evil is defeated.
> 
> That is comforting.
> 
> ...



where does it say satan will be dead? it does say he will be bound......rev 20....ok read matthew 12:26-29

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
KJV
  This shows satan has a kingdom and Jesus has a kingdom[vrs 28 we know that jesus was casting out devils in the Spirit of God , so he says the kingdom is come unto you]

 Vrs 29 shows Jesus has come into satans kingdom [the  world] and how can he spoil his goods except he first Bind him...

  So satan bound yes, powerless no,,, he is bound by the Holy Spirit and Grace...he has no power over these....kinda like a pit bull on a chain, stay out of his reach and he can't bite you....our problem is we like to pet him...

so did Christ defeat satan or did satan defeat Christ?????


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> You don't like direct questions or direct answers, do you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



nope not one mention of a 7 yr trib. not one place where it says we will excape trib. we are promised not to see the wrath of GOD  but tribulation is not wrath....no one has ever lived throught the wrath of God...


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> You don't like direct questions or direct answers, do you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> nope not one mention of a 7 yr trib. not one place where it says we will excape trib. we are promised not to see the wrath of GOD but tribulation is not wrath....


 
It's all there.




> no one has ever lived throught the wrath of God...


 
Noah and his family....

Lot......


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

I'll be back later got to go to work now ...one thing is for sure we both can study alot...


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> farmasis said:
> 
> 
> > You don't like direct questions or direct answers, do you?
> ...


----------



## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> It's all there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The wrath did not fall on them it fell after they reached their safety....who that was left behind got to come out NONE!!! show me one...

 be back soon...


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> where does it say satan will be dead? it does say he will be bound......rev 20....ok read matthew 12:26-29
> 
> 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
> 
> ...


 
He is not bound. He will be bound during the millenium reign, and cast into hades at the end.

1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. 

 7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20)


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> The wrath did not fall on them it fell after they reached their safety....who that was left behind got to come out NONE!!! show me one...


 
Exactly.
Notice how God always removes the righteous before judgement.

Thank God for the rapture of the church.


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## Banjo (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Exactly.
> Notice how God always removes the righteous before judgement.
> 
> Thank God for the rapture of the church.



God leaves the righteous and removes the wicked....

Noah's family repopulated THE EARTH....

Lot's family remained on THE AFTER after God removed the wicked...


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## Banjo (Jan 1, 2009)

Jesus came and judged Jerusalem....This represented the passing of the Old Covenant.  Jerusalem would NO LONGER be the center of worship (John 4:20-24) because Jesus fulfilled ALL that the temple represented.

This is why it is such an abomination to speak of/pray for/or collect money to rebuild the temple...The sacrificial system has been done away with.  Christ is the FINAL sacrifice.  

Jesus made it clear that He was the one who would occupy David's throne IN HEAVEN (Psalm 110:1, Matt. 22:44-45, Acts 2:30-36).  

Jesus has had ALL power and authority given to Him by the Father.  Satan is nothing more than a pawn that Christ uses.  

Every time "the Son of Man coming on the clouds" is used in Matthew 24, it is NOT speaking of a rapture.  It is speaking of Christ's EXALTATION and ENTHRONEMENT.  

Look at Daniel 7:13-14.  It depicts the "Son of Man" as GOING UP approaching the Ancient of Days.  Let's use Scripture to interpret Scripture.

The destruction of Jerusalem was PROOF that Jesus was who He said He was, and that He had taken His seat on the Father's right hand, a place of authority.  Stephen saw Jesus enthroned.  All Israel would know it when the temple and holy city came under judgment.  A JUDGMENT THAT TOOK PLACE IN THEIR GENERATION, just as Jesus had said:

"This generation shall not pass away..."


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## Israel (Jan 1, 2009)

We who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord.

I'll be glad to see what's going...go.
And who's coming...come.

A little while and the wicked will be no more, though you diligently search for him you will not find him. (per my recollection)

A new heavens and a new earth regenerated by fire...perhaps if we understood how ablaze we aught to be fire wouldn't scare us at all. We'd even get to be part of the purging mechanism.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 1, 2009)

creation's_cause said:


> I find it rather straightforward throughout Revelation in terms of symbolisms and literal meanings....the context describes everything as literal or figurative....and in all cases, interprets itself (with the help of some other scriptures too)....for specific example....the first beast in Rev 13....from the context and several uses of similies, scripture clearly interprets this to be a man (in human-form), an authority figure who is given power by another, (the dragon) clearly satan, in the form of a man (human-form)...again I have no issues distinguishing between the two, literal meanings and symbolism....do have any other specific examples where it is unclear to you.....and yes, God does own all the cattle on all the hillsides, everywhere....figuratively and literally....as well as every penny I have in the bank and in my wallet...he is just much more patient in his ownership, than I am in my stewardship.
> 
> I agree God judged Jerusalem in approx 70AD, stay tuned and we will see another round of judgment develop exactly as written, in the days and years ahead....we will have no problems matching the coming events with scripture I assure you of this...



Nice post, I agree.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 1, 2009)

Israel said:


> We who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord.
> 
> I'll be glad to see what's going...go.
> And who's coming...come.
> ...



I can't imagine what will be going on here when the Holy Spirit is removed from this earth.
God has been kicked out of almost everywhere in this country. Out of the country, out of our court system, somewhat out of the political system and getting worse. And we wonder what the heck happened to our wonderful prosperous USA.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Exactly.
> Notice how God always removes the righteous before judgement.
> 
> Thank God for the rapture of the church.



Amen!!
I especially love the passover with the blood of the lamb on the doorposts.
When satan or his little demons come to torment me, I rebuke them out the front door, then act like I'm painting my doorpost with the blood of the lamb and say 'and stay out'.


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## ToLog (Jan 1, 2009)

in all due respect to those among us who have definite opinions and interpretations on the subject, but maybe the final outcome hasn't been decided yet? 

that is to say, what if some of these forecast things will occur if we don't change our ways?

then, if all fails, God swoops down and saves us, and takes us away.  but, if things are successful, God returns and we have the paradise on Earth?  just sayin........


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

Banjo said:


> God leaves the righteous and removes the wicked.....


 
How can you say that?

God removed Noah, then destroyed the rest.

God removed Lot, then destroyed the city.


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Every time "the Son of Man coming on the clouds" is used in Matthew 24, it is NOT speaking of a rapture. It is speaking of Christ's EXALTATION and ENTHRONEMENT.


 
True, it is talking about his second coming after a great tribulation (and after the rapture of the church) that has not happened yet.

We know this is a future event because vs 27-31 hasn't happened yet.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Exactly.
> Notice how God always removes the righteous before judgement.
> 
> Thank God for the rapture of the church.



 but you have people that are left behind being saved...in the days of noah it didn't happen or in Lots day either...so your teaching does not line up with as it was in noah and lots day..


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> He is not bound. He will be bound during the millenium reign, and cast into hades at the end.
> 
> 1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
> 
> 7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20)



what you gonna do with Matthew 12:26-29 Christ said it.....and where is Satan gonna get his army to fight Christ after your 1000 yr reign? the trib has already happened at that point so no sin by your teaching during the 1000yr reign, but Satan is going to be turned loose at the end of this and gather a army of people out of these in this 1000yr reign, people you have in a glorified body and already been to heaven??????? You are teaching a second fall of man ....


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> True, it is talking about his second coming after a great tribulation (and after the rapture of the church) that has not happened yet.
> 
> We know this is a future event because vs 27-31 hasn't happened yet.




show me rapture give me a scripture that says the word rapture?

show me a scripture that says 7 year tribulation?


----------



## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> True, it is talking about his second coming after a great tribulation (and after the rapture of the church) that has not happened yet.
> 
> We know this is a future event because vs 27-31 hasn't happened yet.



 one more question can Christ come get us today or tommorow???


----------



## Banjo (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> How can you say that?
> 
> God removed Noah, then destroyed the rest.
> 
> God removed Lot, then destroyed the city.



Farmasis...We are talking removal from the EARTH...

The rapture as Dispensationalists understand it, have the righteous being removed from the EARTH, and the wicked left behind....

Scripture ALWAYS indicates the opposite.  The righteous will REMAIN...that is why the Beatitudes can say the meek shall inherit the EARTH.


----------



## Banjo (Jan 1, 2009)

Farmasis...how do you address my post 78...

especially:

This generation shall not pass away...


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## Banjo (Jan 1, 2009)

I have taken this excerpt from the "Enoch Syndrome" thread; I thought it pertinent.

"These professing Christians talk about the miracle of the Jews being back in the land, and the time of the Gentiles being past. Yet they do not critique the Jewish state as the Prophets of old did. They do not call that state, rabbis, or families into account on the problems of Idolatry, (replacing the worship of the True God and His son Jesus Christ with another system) abortion (Moloch Worship), they do not comment on the legitimacy of homosexuality (Sodomy), nor does the Jewish nation adhere to Biblical or Old Testament law economically, for the Kibbutzim are incubation spots for socialistic practice and teaching. Their economy is based on paper money, not true weights and measures, thus the most formidable form of idolatry is practiced in the modern state of Israel. Where are the prophets among the "friends of Israel" in the church today? If they were truly friends would they not warn their friends of coming destruction because of the national sins?

Many of these "Friends of Israel" seem to have an Enoch syndrome. Enoch was the 7th from Adam who was raptured "he walked with God and he was not" Genesis 5:21-24. Just think what it would have been like if Noah had said to his family, "We know that Enoch walked with God and was not for God took him. Things around here are really bad so we should walk with God and He will take us out of the earth, too."

Of course this was not the reasoning of Noah because God talked to him and told him to build an ark to the saving of his family in the midst of the destruction of the wicked system built by man under the influence of the Evil one."


----------



## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Farmasis...We are talking removal from the EARTH...
> 
> The rapture as Dispensationalists understand it, have the righteous being removed from the EARTH, and the wicked left behind....
> 
> Scripture ALWAYS indicates the opposite. The righteous will REMAIN...that is why the Beatitudes can say the meek shall inherit the EARTH.


 
No, just as in scripture the righteous are ALWAYS removed. During the rapture, it will be the first time from earth.


----------



## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Farmasis...how do you address my post 78...
> 
> especially:
> 
> This generation shall not pass away...


 
Because he was referring to the race of Jews, not a specific group of people 2000 years ago.

34I tell you the truth, this generation<SUP>[e]</SUP> 
e. Matthew 24:34 Or race 

Now, like it or not that is my answer.

Your turn. If this event was in 70 AD then did we miss Jesus?.....


 29"Immediately after the distress of those days 
   " 'the sun will be darkened, 
      and the moon will not give its light; 
   the stars will fall from the sky, 
      and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'<SUP>[c]</SUP>  30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn.


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> one more question can Christ come get us today or tommorow???


 
He sure can, but he cannot come back at the second coming yet.


----------



## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> show me rapture give me a scripture that says the word rapture?
> 
> show me a scripture that says 7 year tribulation?


 
Give me scripture that says trinity.

It is doctrine taken from context.

The 7 years is from Daniel's prophecy of 70 7's.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> He sure can, but he cannot come back at the second coming yet.



ok, what about the abomonation in matthew 24:15, that has to be in the temple??? there is no temple 

 Then there is this verse...2nd Thessalonians 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, AND the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.....the falling away has happened, but the man of sin that you call the antichrist has not been revealed....so by your teaching this has to take place prior to the rapture...


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## Banjo (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Because he was referring to the race of Jews, not a specific group of people 2000 years ago.
> 
> 34I tell you the truth, this generation<SUP>[e]</SUP>
> e. Matthew 24:34 Or race
> ...



I knew you were going to say that.  Scofield certainly propagated this in his reference Bible.  He had to though in order to further his teachings.  

If this word does mean "race,"  Matt. 24:35 is the ONLY place in the Bible where "genea" has this meaning. Good hermeneutics always calls on us to use Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Nearly all Bible translations render "genea" as "generation."  

Even Hal Lindsey admitted that "genea" should NOT be translated race.  

Generation does NOT mean race in English; all one has to do is look it up in any English dictionary.  I understand why you need it to...but it simply doesn't.  That has serious implications for the Dispensationalist because it means the prophecy delivered by Jesus on the Mount of Olives is now HISTORY....

I am not a full Preterist.  All things have not come to pass.  I anxiously await Jesus' second coming.  However, I believe when He returns, that is it.  He will come in judgment and set up His Kingdom.  

Even so, Lord Jesus, come.


----------



## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> what you gonna do with Matthew 12:26-29 Christ said it.....and where is Satan gonna get his army to fight Christ after your 1000 yr reign? the trib has already happened at that point so no sin by your teaching during the 1000yr reign, but Satan is going to be turned loose at the end of this and gather a army of people out of these in this 1000yr reign, people you have in a glorified body and already been to heaven??????? You are teaching a second fall of man ....


 

 The millennial reign of Christ will begin, a time during which the false prophet and the beast (Antichrist), the first to be thrown into the lake of fire, will begin to serve their eternal sentences. Satan will be confined in the bottomless pit, and there will be none of his minions to torment and tempt the millennial earth-dwellers. It will be a time much like the times of Eden, with the earth restored to its pristine beauty. (Read Rev. 20-10.) After the 1,000 years, the devil will be released from the pit for a short space of time. He will lead millions of those who have been born during the millennium in an assault on Christ at Jerusalem. God will send down fire and consume them all. Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. The lost dead will be resurrected (their eternal bodies joined to their souls), and all will stand before the great white throne of Christ to be judged. All will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity. (Read Rev. 20:10-15.) God "Jesus Christ" will remake the heavens and the earth in preparation for everlasting, ever-growing ecstasy in God's presence. (Read Rev. 20:16-22: 16.) 

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-end-time.html


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Give me scripture that says trinity.
> 
> It is doctrine taken from context.
> 
> The 7 years is from Daniel's prophecy of 70 7's.



1st john 5:7 for there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one...[kjv]

 is that good enough on the trinty


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I knew you were going to say that. Scofield certainly propagated this in his reference Bible. He had to though in order to further his teachings.
> 
> If this word does mean "race," Matt. 24:35 is the ONLY place in the Bible where "genea" has this meaning. Good hermeneutics always calls on us to use Scripture to interpret Scripture.
> 
> ...


 
I am using scripture to interpret scripture.

KJV Strong's *G1074* matches the Greek Î³ÎµÎ½Îµá½± (_genea_).

*(nation*) AND G1074*
occurs in *2* verses in the KJV
Page 1 / 1 (Act 14:16 - Phl 2:15)   (More Info) 













<TABLE style="MARGIN: 0px; WIDTH: 250px" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 60%" vAlign=top align=left>*Line-By-Line Order:*





  Reference-Verse





  Verse-Reference





  Separate Line





  Verse Only

</TD><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 60%" vAlign=top align=left>*Reference Delimiters:*





  none—Jhn 1:1 KJV





  square—[Jhn 1:1 KJV]





  curly—{Jhn 1:1 KJV}





  parens—(Jhn 1:1 KJV)

</TD></TR><TR><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 60%" vAlign=top align=left colSpan=2>*Other Options:*





  Abbreviate books





  Quotes around Verses

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=vRefa>
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


Act 14:16</TD><TD class=vDispa>Who <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">3739</SUP> in <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">1722</SUP> times <SUP class=strongs>1074</SUP> past <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">3944</SUP> (5768) suffered <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">1439</SUP> (5656) all <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">3956</SUP> nations <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">1484</SUP> to walk <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">4198</SUP> (5738) in their own <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">846</SUP> ways <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">3598</SUP>. </TD></TR><TR><TD class=vRefb>
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


Phl 2:15</TD><TD class=vDispb>That <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">2443</SUP> ye may be <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">1096</SUP> (5638) blameless <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">273</SUP> and <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">2532</SUP> harmless <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">185</SUP>, the sons <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">5043</SUP> of God <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">2316</SUP>, without rebuke <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">298</SUP>, in <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">1722</SUP> the midst <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">3319</SUP> of a crooked <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">4646</SUP> and <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">2532</SUP> perverse <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">1294</SUP> (5772) nation <SUP class=strongs>1074</SUP>, among <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">1722</SUP> whom <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">3739</SUP> ye shine <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">5316</SUP> (5743) as <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">5613</SUP> lights <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">5458</SUP> in <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">1722</SUP> the world <SUP style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">2889</SUP>; </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I see you conviently skipped my question......


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> 1st john 5:7 for there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one...[kjv]
> 
> is that good enough on the trinty


 
It is for me, even though trinity is not used. Just as rapture.


----------



## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> The millennial reign of Christ will begin, a time during which the false prophet and the beast (Antichrist), the first to be thrown into the lake of fire, will begin to serve their eternal sentences. Satan will be confined in the bottomless pit, and there will be none of his minions to torment and tempt the millennial earth-dwellers. It will be a time much like the times of Eden, with the earth restored to its pristine beauty. (Read Rev. 20-10.) After the 1,000 years, the devil will be released from the pit for a short space of time. He will lead millions of those who have been born during the millennium in an assault on Christ at Jerusalem. God will send down fire and consume them all. Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. The lost dead will be resurrected (their eternal bodies joined to their souls), and all will stand before the great white throne of Christ to be judged. All will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity. (Read Rev. 20:10-15.) God "Jesus Christ" will remake the heavens and the earth in preparation for everlasting, ever-growing ecstasy in God's presence. (Read Rev. 20:16-22: 16.)
> 
> http://www.raptureready.com/rr-end-time.html



 I'm sorry show me out of the bible people being born during the millennium. good story but not book..

If they are born during this time should't they have a time to be saved, but salvation is by faith and not by sight, if Christ is here then they could see Him.... show me the saved during the millennium


----------



## Banjo (Jan 1, 2009)

> I see you conviently skipped my question......



I thought that I answered it:

"I am not a full Preterist. All things have not come to pass. I anxiously await Jesus' second coming. However, I believe when He returns, that is it. He will come in judgment and set up His Kingdom. 

Even so, Lord Jesus, come."


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## Banjo (Jan 1, 2009)

Jesus had in mind the PEOPLE to whom He was speaking....not some future generation....

Look at Luke 21:36

"But keep on the alert at all times, praying in order that YOU may have strength to escape all these things that ARE ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE, and to stand before the Son of Man."

This is the same group of people that Jesus told to "be on the alert" and to pray.


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I'm sorry show me out of the bible people being born during the millennium. good story but not book..
> 
> If they are born during this time should't they have a time to be saved, but salvation is by faith and not by sight, if Christ is here then they could see Him.... show me the saved during the millennium


 
 1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; 
       from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. 

 2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him— 
       the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, 
       the Spirit of counsel and of power, 
       the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD - 
 3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. 
       He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, 
       or decide by what he hears with his ears; 
 4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy, 
       with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. 
       He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; 
       with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. 
 5 Righteousness will be his belt 
       and faithfulness the sash around his waist. 
 6 The wolf will live with the lamb, 
       the leopard will lie down with the goat, 
       the calf and the lion and the yearling <SUP>[a]</SUP> together; 
 and a little child will lead them. 
 7 The cow will feed with the bear, 
       their young will lie down together, 
       and the lion will eat straw like the ox. 
 8 The infant will play near the hole of the cobra, 
       and the young child put his hand into the viper's nest.  9 They will neither harm nor destroy 
       on all my holy mountain, 
       for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD 
       as the waters cover the sea. (Is 11)


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> It is for me, even though trinity is not used. Just as rapture.



I believe the LORD will remove the Church, but I believe it will be at the end of this world. 2nd peter3:10

let me ask you this at the ''rapture'' will the saved dead people be resurrected????


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I believe the LORD will remove the Church, but I believe it will be at the end of this world. 2nd peter3:10
> 
> let me ask you this at the ''rapture'' will the saved dead people be resurrected????


 
Of course.....

 13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thes 4)


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## Banjo (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> 1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
> from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
> 
> 2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him—
> ...



That is stretching it a bit...I see you did put a great POSTMILLENIAL verse in there though:

"for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD 
       as the waters cover the sea. "


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I thought that I answered it:
> 
> "I am not a full Preterist. All things have not come to pass. I anxiously await Jesus' second coming. However, I believe when He returns, that is it. He will come in judgment and set up His Kingdom.
> 
> Even so, Lord Jesus, come."


 
Ok, in keeping with your line of reasoning let's study the word immediately and determine if it meant right then, or 2000+ years later. Here is where Matthew used it elsewhere in his book.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=vRefa>
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


Mat 4:22</TD><TD class=vDispa>And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him. </TD></TR><TR><TD class=vRefb>
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


Mat 8:3</TD><TD class=vDispb>And Jesus put forth [his] hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. </TD></TR><TR><TD class=vRefa>
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


Mat 14:31</TD><TD class=vDispa>And immediately Jesus stretched forth [his] hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? </TD></TR><TR><TD class=vRefb>
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


Mat 20:34</TD><TD class=vDispb>So Jesus had compassion [on them], and touched their eyes: and immediately their eyes received sight, and they followed him. </TD></TR><TR><TD class=vRefa>
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


Mat 24:29</TD><TD class=vDispa>Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: </TD></TR><TR><TD class=vRefb>
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


Mat 26:74</TD><TD class=vDispb>Then began he to curse and to swear, [saying], I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## Banjo (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I believe the LORD will remove the Church, but I believe it will be at the end of this world. 2nd peter3:10
> 
> let me ask you this at the ''rapture'' will the saved dead people be resurrected????



Hey...pigpen, you and Farmasis do have something in common.  I bet you both believe this world is just going to continue to deteriorate.  The gospel really won't be victorious on this earth.

I call it pessimillenialism.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> 1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
> from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
> 
> 2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him—
> ...



this too is symbolic of Christ and the Church read the rest of the chapter...read the next chapter too [ ch12 it to is speaking of the same time] this is not what you are referring to as the millennial...


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> this too is symbolic of Christ and the Church read the rest of the chapter...read the next chapter too [ ch12 it to is speaking of the same time] this is not what you are referring to as the millennial...


 
I like this symbolism stuff.

If things are in the Bible that do not line up with our beliefs, we can just call it symbolism.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Hey...pigpen, you and Farmasis do have something in common.  I bet you both believe this world is just going to continue to deteriorate.  The gospel really won't be victorious on this earth.
> 
> I call it pessimillenialism.



 I believe the gospel is victorious, it has gave man a way to be restored unto GOD.....the Law couldn't do it, not that the Law was weak but that we are, but through Christ and His Gospel we can be restored...so it is victorious..


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I believe the gospel is victorious, it has gave man a way to be restored unto GOD.....the Law couldn't do it, not that the Law was weak but that we are, but through Christ and His Gospel we can be restored...so it is victorious..


 
Amen!
It was victorious in my life.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I like this symbolism stuff.
> 
> If things are in the Bible that do not line up with our beliefs, we can just call it symbolism.




READ ch 12 it is still talking about the same time as ch11..read verse 3 of ch 12 therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of wells of salvation...huh .. didn't Christ say that to the woman at the well???


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Amen!
> It was victorious in my life.



glad we could agree on at least one thing..lol


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## Banjo (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Ok, in keeping with your line of reasoning let's study the word immediately and determine if it meant right then, or 2000+ years later. Here is where Matthew used it elsewhere in his book.
> 
> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=vRefa>
> 
> ...



Immediately....

Luke writes that certain signs would occur some time before the end.  I think we can agree on that.  This would be a number of years before the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.  

Jesus warned the disciples not to be frightened when they saw these signs (Matt. 24:6).

Luke 2:19.... The "end (destruction of Jerusalem) does not follow immediately after these early signs.  The early signs that Matthew describes are merely "the BEGINNING of birth pangs."  The events of Luke 21:9 should be placed between verses 6 and 7 of Matthew 24.  

The darkening of the sun and moon and the falling of the stars occurs "immediately" after the events of verses 15-28.  

I don't have time to type it all out, but the sun, moon and stars are found as symbols throughout the OT.  You can look it up.  The stars represented people, nations, religious and civil Israel, kings and kingdoms.  

Isa. 13:9-10
Ezek.32:7-8
Isa. 34:4-5
Amos 5:18
Amos 8:9

This same imagery can be found in the NT as well:

Look at Rev. 12:1-2....This likeness is a picture of Israel in her glory giving birth to the Messiah...

Summing it  up:

The imagery of the sun, moon and stars in Matt. 24:29 is  Jesus describing Israel as a nation, drawing the symbolism from Genesis 37:9....Rev. 12 shows Israel in her glory giving birth to the Messiah...Matt. 24:9 depicts Israel in decline as the nation that rejected her Messiah.  

Israel's judgment was to take place BEFORE that generation passed away.


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## Banjo (Jan 1, 2009)

All right...I am out of here for a bit.  I have to go play a few round of Mario Karts with the children before reading them Swiss Family Robinson...

You guys keep posting; I'll look forward to reading it later.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

Banjo said:


> All right...I am out of here for a bit.  I have to go play a few round of Mario Karts with the children before reading them Swiss Family Robinson...
> 
> You guys keep posting; I'll look forward to reading it later.



 I agree with you on a lot like the events of 70a.d. and at Christ's coming will be the end...the only thing I don't see is this world continuing after his coming....I look for the new heaven and new earth...I still look at 2nd peter ch3:10 it says the heaven shall pass away and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the Earth also..and verse 7 of the same chapter the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire....

  and one more difference is the Kingdom or '' millennial'' I believe is now , in the hearts of believer's, that is where true peace comes unto us...Luke 17:20-21, John 18:36, Matt 12:28....just to name a few...


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Immediately....
> 
> Luke writes that certain signs would occur some time before the end. I think we can agree on that. This would be a number of years before the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.
> 
> ...


 
So, did we miss Christ, because at that same time he is coming back.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days 
   " 'the sun will be darkened, 
      and the moon will not give its light; 
   the stars will fall from the sky, 
      and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'<SUP>[c]</SUP> 
 30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 

Hence, it hasn't happened yet.
So, altough Jerusalem went through a tribulaion, it wasn't th Great Triblation.

If you still want to cling to your hope that it is talking about an event that happened in 70AD.

Why did Jesus lie to us?

Next..........

Who was THE antichist? (Dan 9:27)

Who were the two witnesses? Did anyone report their reincarnation after the beast slayed them and they laid in the streets for 3 1/2 days? Did anyone report that they ascended into heaven? (Rev 11)

or was that all symbolism?

Wasn't Matthew written after 70AD?


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## pigpen1 (Jan 1, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Of course.....
> 
> 13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thes 4)



 Ok John ch 6:39,40,44,and54 in all of these verses Jesus is talking about saved people and the last sentence in each one of these verses says and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY...if the resurrection of the saved is at the ''rapture'' Jesus says it will be at the LAST DAY....how many days can be past the last one??? how can you fit 1007 yrs after the LAST DAY???


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## farmasis (Jan 1, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Ok John ch 6:39,40,44,and54 in all of these verses Jesus is talking about saved people and the last sentence in each one of these verses says and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY...if the resurrection of the saved is at the ''rapture'' Jesus says it will be at the LAST DAY....how many days can be past the last one??? how can you fit 1007 yrs after the LAST DAY???


 
I am having a hard time making sense out of that.

Are you saying that when we are raised up that it will be the last day? or do you think it means it will be the last day of the earth?


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## Banjo (Jan 2, 2009)

farmasis said:


> So, did we miss Christ, because at that same time he is coming back.
> 
> 29"Immediately after the distress of those days
> " 'the sun will be darkened,
> ...



He did come....in judgment.  Therefore, Jesus didn't LIE to the people to whom He was speaking when He said:

THIS generation shall not pass away....

Antichrist....a biblical definition:  

I John 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 7

An antichrist is ANY one who denies that Jesus is the Christ, ANY one who denies the Father and the Son, EVERY spirit that does not confess Jesus, THOSE who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.  THIS IS THE DECEIVER AND THE ANTICHRIST...

I don't know about you, but in my lifetime and on this forum board, I have met a few "Antichrists."

Antichrist is a description of both the system of apostasy and individual apostates...not some future political figure who recovers from a mortal wound.  Use the Bible for your definitions...not the Scofield reference Bible notes.

The Two Witnesses...

They did represent the line of prophets which culminated in John the Baptist.  He bore witness against Jerusalem during the history of Israel.  These witnesses are members of the Old Covenant as indicated by their wearing of sackcloth...

Both were in a role preparing for the Messiah to come.  (Deut. 18:15, Acts 3:22, 7:37) Malachi predicted the coming of another Elijah (Mal.4:5-6).  This was fulfilled in John the Baptist (Matt. 11:13-14).  Moses was succeeded by a Joshua, and Elijah was succeeded by on who (like Christ) had a greater anointing of the Spirit than he did himself (2 Kings 2:9).  

The two witnesses summarize all the witnesses of the Old Covenant, culminating in the witness of John the Baptist.

The tribulation was a local event...read Jesus' language.  How are people globally going to "flee to the mountains."  How would the mountains sustain everyone?  This event was limited to Palestine...

"For the days shall come upon YOU"
"when YOUR enemies will throw up a bank before YOU, and surround YOU, and hem YOU in on every side, and will level YOU to the ground and YOUR children within you, and they will not leave in YOU one stone upon another, because YOU did not recognize the time of YOUR visitation..."  (Luke 19:43-44)


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## Banjo (Jan 2, 2009)

> Wasn't Matthew written after 70AD?



Nope...

Since we are "dating" books, Kenneth Gentry wrote some great books on the dating of Revelation...


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## Banjo (Jan 2, 2009)

Perhaps an overview of Dispensationalism would be helpful....Most American evangelicals don't know that in the scheme of history, Dispensationalism is a very new doctrine....made popular in the early 1900's...The church 200 years ago had never even heard of it.

DISPENSATIONALISM
By Nick Bibile

According to dispensationalism theology;  a dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect to his obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God.  God has divided the history into seven dispensations.
1.  Dispensation of innocence.  (Before the fall of man) 
2.  Dispensation of conscience. (From the fall to Noah) 
3.  Dispensation of human government. ( Noah to Abraham) 
4.  Dispensation of promise. ( Abraham to Moses) 
5.  Dispensation of law. ( Moses to Jesus) 
6.  Dispensation of grace. (The present church age) 
7.  Dispensation of the kingdom. ( 1000 year millennium period)

The above definition of the dispensations are the work of C. I. Scofield.  Scofield adopted the above dispensational periods from one verse from the Bible, and that is 2 Timothy 2:15, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."  Now to the dispensationalist rightly dividing here is history and time. Scofield has put his opinion into the text, as the text never says that, on the other hand the text says we need to divide the truth and not history and time.  The Greek meaning is cutting straight the word of truth.  The word of God is a sword and it will cut and divide the truth from error.

Today majority of the evangelicals are dispensationalists and the common average Christian do not even know that he or she is a dispensationalist.  The dispensationalists also believe in the following.

1.)  God have two plans and two programs. 
       a.) Israel.    b.) Church. 
2.)  The old testament prophecies of Israel are for Israel and not for the church. 
3.)  The church is a parenthesis in God' s plan and will end in apostasy,  God has temporarily postponed  his purpose for Israel. 
4.)  The church began at the pentecost and will end at the rapture.

HISTORY

There was a great spiritual vacuum in the 1800's as the pulpits were filled with liberal theology and as a result the lay people were spiritually starving.  These conditions gave birth to Brethren Movement in 1830,  this was the beginning of dispensationalism.  Also in this time in 1830 Joseph Smith began Mormonism,  William Miller in 1831 began the Adventist movement and in 1881 Charles Taze Russel began the Jehovah's Witnesses.

The father of the dispensationalism is John Nelson Darby, born in Ireland became a lawyer and later joined the Brethren Movement in 1827.  Darby and the Brethren Movement departed from early historic Christianity of the reformers and claimed that they have re-discovered the truth.

Then C. I. Scofield who was converted to Christianity in 1879,  later on became a minister and came to know Darby.  Scofield was heavily influenced by Darby, and both wrote volumes of expostional works.  In 1909 Scofield wrote the Scofield Reference Bible.

During this period the Bible was attacked by the liberal theologians  and the higher critics.  Scofield's study Bible became very popular in the church as it defended the critics and encouraged the believers for Bible studies.  Scofield's system of theology was outlined in the Bible and dispensationalism began to grow rapidly.

Lewis Sperry Chaffer was born in 1871, converted to Christ in 1877 ordained in 1900 then joined the staff of Scofield School of the Bible in 1911.  He became the president of the Evangelical Theological College and later changed it's name to Dallas Theological Seminary.  He published systematic theology in 1947-1948 and dispensationalism became the dominant theology  in American evangelism and has a great influence in foreign countries as well. 

All Pentecostal churches,  Calvary Chapels, some Baptist churches and majority of the non denomination and inter denomination churches teach dispensationalism.

Although dispensationalism has a great effect on eschatology, many are not aware that dispensationalism can also affect one's soteriology. 

http://www.sounddoctrine.net/Nick/dispensationalism_Nick.htm


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## pigpen1 (Jan 2, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I am having a hard time making sense out of that.
> 
> Are you saying that when we are raised up that it will be the last day? or do you think it means it will be the last day of the earth?



 CHRIST called it the last day, just like the rest of his teachings he always spoke of a end when he returns for us. Just like the parables, ten virgins, tares and wheat, the great net, and sheep and goats etc....2nd peter 3:10


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## pigpen1 (Jan 2, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Perhaps an overview of Dispensationalism would be helpful....Most American evangelicals don't know that in the scheme of history, Dispensationalism is a very new doctrine....made popular in the early 1900's...The church 200 years ago had never even heard of it.
> 
> banjo I am a Independent Baptist, I have studied and talked to many old preachers up here in the mtns where I live, they have told me that dispensational premillennialism was not taught or brought into the churches up here until the late 1940's and early 1950's and I know that it is very new compared to some of the other doctrines of eschology. I was saved in a church that taught this and so believed it, because it was all I heard. I heard about Scofield more than Jesus. It didn't take me long to begin to question that doctrine, there are to many scriptures that contradict their teaching.......I like to learn more each day, and am open to looking at all views, but like the ones that fit with overall majority of the scriptures and fit with historical facts...I refer to it as putting a puzzle together, you get the pieces that fit, put them together and you can see part of the picture...but most today use the scripture like a ink blot at a psychiatrist's office..'' What does this look like to you''.....lol....keep sending your views because I'm interested....


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## Banjo (Jan 2, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Banjo said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps an overview of Dispensationalism would be helpful....Most American evangelicals don't know that in the scheme of history, Dispensationalism is a very new doctrine....made popular in the early 1900's...The church 200 years ago had never even heard of it.
> ...


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## farmasis (Jan 2, 2009)

Banjo said:


> He did come....in judgment. Therefore, Jesus didn't LIE to the people to whom He was speaking when He said:
> 
> THIS generation shall not pass away....
> 
> ...


 
That is why I made sure to say THE antichrist along with the reference to Daniel that describes what he would do. See also Rev.13:11-18. So, who was HE?



> The Two Witnesses...
> 
> They did represent the line of prophets which culminated in John the Baptist. He bore witness against Jerusalem during the history of Israel. These witnesses are members of the Old Covenant as indicated by their wearing of sackcloth...
> 
> ...


 
So who were they and why no reports of them being resurrected after being dead for 3 days and ascension into heaven?

The Great Tribulation will not be a local event. People will flee to the mountains because God will come and get them at the rapture. Fleeing to the mountains is symbolism for the rapture.


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## farmasis (Jan 2, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Nope...
> 
> Since we are "dating" books, Kenneth Gentry wrote some great books on the dating of Revelation...


 

yes, usually Pretribers have to try and change when Revelation was written to fit their doctrine.

Matthew was written between 70-110 AD.


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## farmasis (Jan 2, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> CHRIST called it the last day, just like the rest of his teachings he always spoke of a end when he returns for us. Just like the parables, ten virgins, tares and wheat, the great net, and sheep and goats etc....2nd peter 3:10


 
It will be the last day. This earth will change. heaven and earth, as we know it, will pass away.


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## Banjo (Jan 2, 2009)

> Matthew was written between 70-110 AD.



Your source?  I bet I can provide just as many that say it was written prior to 70 A.D.

It would boil down to your depending on MODERN scholarship that promotes Dispensationalism.  The old-timers have Matthew written before 70 A.D.  

I am a bit wary of all new scholarship.....


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## farmasis (Jan 2, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Perhaps an overview of Dispensationalism would be helpful....Most American evangelicals don't know that in the scheme of history, Dispensationalism is a very new doctrine....made popular in the early 1900's...The church 200 years ago had never even heard of it.


 
Now you sound like a Catholic.

Old or not, it is Biblically sound, unlike Preterism, IMO.


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## farmasis (Jan 2, 2009)

Early Church Teaching On Pre-Tribulation Rapture
by Grant Jeffries 
"A Noted Byzantine Scholar That Taught The Pre-Tribulation Rapture in A.D. 373" Quote: Grant Jeffries​Over the last thirty years I have been fascinated with Bible prophecy because it authenticates the Scriptures as God's inspired Word and it points to the imminent return of Jesus Christ to usher in the Messianic Kingdom. I am always delighted when God leads me to new information that confirms His Word. In my ongoing research into recent archeological discoveries and into writings of early Church leaders, I have made several exciting new discoveries that I want to share with my readers. In this chapter we will explore a number of interesting discoveries about the following subjects: the finding of a teaching about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture from the first centuries of the early church; the archeological discoveries of the tombs of Mary, Martha and Lazarus that prove the historical accuracy of the Gospels; and the proof that miraculous healings, raising of the dead, and the Charismatic gifts were common among believers during the first three centuries following the resurrection of Christ. 
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Was Taught by the Early Church 
Obviously, the truth about the timing of the Rapture will ultimately be found only in Scripture. The Protestant Reformation was based essentially on this return to the authority of the Bible. The Latin phrase Sola Scriptura, meaning "Scripture Alone" became the rallying cry of the reformers who ignored centuries of tradition and church councils in their insistence that truth could only be discovered in the Word of God. While the ultimate resolution of this discussion must be based on our interpretation of Scripture, it is important to answer the errors of our opponents who disparage "the blessed hope" of the Rapture with misinformation about the modern rediscovery of the truth about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. 
Many post-tribulationist writers have attacked the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine by claiming that it cannot be true because no church writer or reformer ever taught this doctrine until approximately 170 years ago. While the real question for sincere students of Scripture must be whether or not the Bible truly teaches this doctrine, the argument that no one ever saw this "truth" throughout eighteen hundred years of Church history has been very effective, causing many Christians to abandon their belief in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The only problem with their argument is that they are totally wrong. 
Many contemporary writers claim that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory first originated around A.D. 1820. They ascribe the theory's initial creation to either Emmanuel Lacunza (Ben Ezra, 1812), Edward Irving (1830), or Margaret Macdonald (1830), and finally to John Darby (1830). For example, Dave MacPherson in The Incredible Cover-Up (1975 stated); "Margaret Macdonald was the first person to teach a coming of Christ that would precede the days of Antichrist . . . . Before 1830, Christians had always believed in a single future coming, that the catching of I Thess. 4 will take place after the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24 at the glorious coming of the Son of Man when He shall send His angels to gather together all of His Elect." Reverend John Bray, in The Origin of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Teaching (1982) declared; "People who are teaching the Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching today are teaching something that never was taught until 1812 . . . . Not one of those early church fathers taught a Pre-Tribulation Rapture . . . . I make the offer of five hundred dollars to anybody who will find a statement, a sermon, article in a commentary, or anything, prior to 1812 that taught a two-phase coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time, such as the Pre-Tribulation rapturists teach." These writers, among others who despise the teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, dogmatically assert that it was taught for the first time in 1830 by John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren or one of the other individuals mentioned above. 
A number of these authors will have to drastically revise the next edition of their books based on two remarkable textual discoveries that conclusively prove that a number of Christian teachers, centuries before John Darby rediscovered this biblical teaching, clearly taught that the Rapture would occur before the Tribulation period. During the summer of 1994, after more than a decade of searching, I discovered several fascinating manuscripts that contain clear evidence of the teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture in the early church. 
Ephraem's Teaching on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture 
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373). 
The early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian, (who lived from A.D. 306 to 373) was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church. He was born near Nisbis, in the Roman province of Syria, near present day Edessa, Turkey. Ephraem displayed a profound love of the Scriptures in his writings as illustrated by several of his written comments quoted in the Works of Nathaniel Lardner, Vol. 4, 1788. "I esteem no man more happy than him, who diligently reads the Scriptures delivered to us by the Spirit of God, and thinks how he may order his conversation by the precepts of them." To this day, his hymns and homilies are used in the liturgy of the Greek Orthodox and Middle Eastern Nestorian Church. While the sixteen-volume Post-Nicene Library includes a number of homilies and psalms by Ephraem the Syrian, the editors noted that he also wrote a large number of commentaries that have never been translated into English. 
Ephraem's fascinating teaching on the Antichrist has never been published in English until now. This critically important prophecy manuscript from the fourth century of the Church era reveals a literal method of interpretation and a teaching of the Pre-Millennial return of Christ. More importantly, Ephraem's text revealed a very clear statement about the Pre-Tribulational return of Christ to take His elect saints home to heaven to escape the coming Tribulation. In addition, Ephraem declares his belief in a personal, Jewish Antichrist, who will rule the Roman Empire during the last days, a rebuilt temple, the two witnesses and a literal Great Tribulation lasting 1,260 days. It is also fascinating to note that he taught that the War of God and Magog would precede the Tribulation period. I discovered another text by Ephraem, called The Book of the Cave of Treasure, that revealed he taught that Daniel's Seventieth Week will be fulfilled in the final seven years at the end of this age that will conclude with Christ's return at the Battle of Armageddon to establish His kingdom. 
The following section includes key passages from Ephraem's important text, written about A.D. 373, and translated by Professor Cameron Rhoades, of Tyndale Theological Seminary, at my request. 
On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World 
"1. Most dearly beloved brothers, believe the Holy Spirit who speaks in us. Now we have spoken before, because the end of the world is very near, and the consummation remains. Has not the first faith withered away in men? ... 
"2. We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because it is the very last time . . . . Because all saints and Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins (Italics added). And so, brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord . . . 
"3. When therefore the end of the world comes, there arise diverse wars, commotions on all sides, horrible earthquakes, perturbations of nations, tempests throughout the lands, plagues, famine, drought throughout the thoroughfares, great danger throughout the sea and dry land, constant persecutions, slaughters and massacres everywhere . . . 
"6. When therefore the end of the world comes, that abominable, lying and murderous one is born from the tribe of Dan. He is conceived from the seed of a man and from a most vile virgin, mixed with an evil or worthless spirit . . . 
"7. But when the time of the abomination of his desolation begins to approach, having been made legal, he takes the empire . . . . Therefore, when he receives the kingdom, he orders the temple of God to be rebuilt for himself, which is in Jerusalem; who, after coming into it, he shall sit as God and order that he be adored by all nations . . . . then all people from everywhere shall flock together to him at the city of Jerusalem, and the holy city shall be trampled on by the nations for forty-two months just as the holy apostle says in the Apocalypse, which becomes three and a half years, 1260 days. 
"8. In these three years and a half the heaven shall suspend its dew; because there will be no rain upon the earth . . . . and there will be a Great Tribulation, as there has not been, since people began to be upon the earth . . . . and no one is able to sell or to buy of the grain of the fall harvest, unless he is one who has the serpentine sign on the forehead or the hand . . . . 
"10. And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy or son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the word of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints . . . . Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the Spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord for ever and ever." 
To summarize the key points in Ephraem's text on the last days: 
1. Ephraem's manuscript lays out the events of the last days in chronological sequence. Significantly he began with the Rapture using the word "imminent," then, he described the Great Tribulation of three and a half years duration under the Antichrist's tyranny, followed by the second coming of Christ to earth with his saints to defeat the Antichrist. 
2. Significantly, at the beginning of his treatise in Section 2, Ephraem used the word "imminent" to describe the Rapture occurring before the Tribulation the coming of the Antichrist. "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers what is imminent or overhanging." 
3. He clearly described the Pre-Tribulation Rapture: "Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." 
4. He then gives the purpose of God rapturing the church "before the tribulation" so that "they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." Ephraem used the word "confusion" as a synonym for the Tribulation Period. 
5. Ephraem described the duration of the "Great Tribulation" (the last half of the Seven Year Tribulation Period) in sections, 7, 8, and 10 as follows: "forty-two months" and "three and a half years" and "1260 days." 
6. He summarized: "There will be a Great Tribulation, as there has not been since people began to be upon the earth" and described the Mark of the Beast system. 
7. He declared that Christ will come to the earth after the "three and a half years" Tribulation Period in Section 10: "And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets . . . will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty. 
Dr. Paul Alexander, perhaps the most authoritative scholar on the writing of the early Byzantine Church, concluded that Ephraem's text on The Antichrist taught that the Lord would supernaturally remove the saints of the Church from the earth "prior to the tribulations that is to come." Ephraem wrote that the saints will be "taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Dr. Alexander believed this text was written by some unknown writer in the sixth century but he concluded that it was derived from an original Ephraem manuscript (A.D. 373). Other scholars, including the German editor Professor Caspari who wrote a German commentary on this Latin manuscript in 1890, believed that Ephraem's manuscript was written by the genuine Ephraem in A.D. 373. Professor Cameron Rhodes, professor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, translated Ephraem's Latin text into English at the request of my friend Dr. Thomas Ice and myself. 
Ephraem and Daniel's Seventieth Week - The Tribulation Period 
A question naturally arises in the mind of Bible students about how long Ephraem believed the Tribulation would last. While Ephraem correctly describes the "Great Tribulation" as three and a half years his other writings revealed that he believed the whole Tribulation Period, "that sore affliction," would last "one week" of seven years. Ephraem's book, The Book of the Cave of Treasures, written about A. D. 373, taught about the genealogy of Christ. He wrote the sixty-ninth week of Daniel 9:24-27 ended with the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah. He stated, "The Jews have no longer among them a king, or a priest, or a prophet, or a Passover, even as Daniel prophesied concerning them, saying, 'After two and sixty weeks Christ shall be slain, and the city of holiness shall be laid waste until the completion of things decreed.' (Daniel 9:26). That is to say, for ever and ever." (italics added, page 235, The Cave of Treasures). In Daniel's prophecy, he foretold that Jerusalem would be rebuilt "even in troublesome times" during the initial period of "seven weeks" of years (forty-nine years). Daniel's prophecy declared that this initial period of "seven weeks" of years would be immediately followed by a further period of sixty-two "weeks" of years ending with the cutting off of the Messiah (483 years). The combined total of sixty-nine weeks of years (seven weeks plus sixty-two weeks) was to conclude with the rejection of Christ. As quoted above, Ephraem taught that Jesus Christ was slain at the end of the combined sixty-nine weeks of years. 
However, in the section of his book dealing with the future of Gog and Magog, Ephraem wrote about the final (seventieth) week of Daniel as follows. "At the end of the world at the final consummation . . . suddenly the gates of the north shall be opened . . . . They will destroy the earth, and there will be none able to stand before them. After one week of that sore affliction (tribulation), they will all be destroyed in the plain of Joppa . . . . Then will the son of perdition appear, of the seed and of the tribe of Dan . . . . He will go into Jerusalem and will sit upon a throne in the Temple saying, 'I am the Christ,' and he will be borne aloft by legions of devils like a king and a lawgiver, naming himself God . . . . The time of the error of the Anti-Christ will last two years and a half, but others say three years and six months" (italics added). Although there are some curious elements in his description of prophetic events, it is clear that Ephraem believed that the seventieth final week of Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks will finally be fulfilled during the final seven years of this age when the Antichrist will appear. This evidence of a belief in a "gap" or "parenthesis" between the sixty-ninth and seventieth week of Daniel 9:24-27 from the fourth century of the Christian era is significant. It is worthwhile to note that this teaching that there would be a "gap" or "parenthesis" between Daniel's 69th week and the 70th week of years was also taught by others in the early church including the Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 110) and the writings of Hippolytus (A.D. 220). 
http://www.pawcreek.org/articles/endtimes/EarlyTeachingOnPreTrib.htm

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## farmasis (Jan 2, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Your source? I bet I can provide just as many that say it was written prior to 70 A.D.
> 
> It would boil down to your depending on MODERN scholarship that promotes Dispensationalism. The old-timers have Matthew written before 70 A.D.
> 
> I am a bit wary of all new scholarship.....


 
*Date - When was Matthew written?*

Two centuries ago, when people began asking about the date biblical books were written, the question often had implications about the reliability of the information in the book. People assumed that the closer to Jesus’ own life that a gospel was written the more likely it was to be historically accurate. The longer the time between Jesus’ life and the gospel, the less accurate the story would be. With such thinking people who argued that Matthew was written in AD 90, say, were seen as attacking the reliability of Matthew’s portrait of Jesus by those who thought Matthew was written in AD 50.
Such a concern no longer dominates the discussion about the date of the gospels. We now recognize that an author writing in AD 90 who had correct information could easily be "more correct" than an author writing in AD 50 who had poor information or who wanted to distort the picture of Jesus. As a result the effort to establish the date of Matthew is now built on historical evidence rather than on theological bias.
The most common view of the date of the writing of Matthew is that is was written between AD 75 and 90. This conclusion is based on the evidence of interest in Jewish issues in the gospel. As will be mentioned below there are many aspects of Matthew that indicate it was written in the context of Jewish people. It appears that the author wants to address Jewish believers in Christ who were finding it hard to maintain their faith in Christ and their own Jewishness. That would not have been a problem early in Christian history. Up until at least AD 60 or 65 the majority of Christians were Jews rather than Gentiles and all the leaders of the church were Jewish. "Persecution" of Christians by Jews was a matter of one group of Jews persecuting another group of Jews (which happened frequently in that period of history). At least four major religious groups co-existed (however, uneasily) in Judaism at that time. Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, and Nazarenes (as the Jewish followers of Jesus were called) all considered themselves to be the true Jews, but they tolerated the existence of the other groups. There was no conflict between being a Jew and being a follower of Christ also.
In AD 66 Jewish revolutionaries in Galilee revolted against the Roman Empire. The war spread throughout Palestine. The evidence is not clear, but it appears that the [Jewish] followers of Jesus in Palestine refused to join the uprising against Rome and that they moved out of Jerusalem and Judea to an area east or northeast of Palestine. By AD 70 Jerusalem had been burned to the ground and the temple had been totally destroyed. The Roman Empire nearly destroyed Judaism as it had been known. The only survivors in terms of religion were the remnants of the Pharisees and the Jewish followers of Jesus.
Banned from Jerusalem by the Romans the remaining Pharisees moved to Galilee to rebuild Judaism. These Pharisees concluded that the lack of Jewish unity before the war had caused their problems. They determined to rebuild Judaism without the diversity of religious views that had existed before. Since the followers of Jesus had not supported the war and since that group had accepted so many gentiles into it that they (the gentiles) were fast becoming the majority the Pharisees decided to exclude "Nazarenes" from their synagogues. 
They used a variety of methods to accomplish this goal. The most notorious was a re-writing of the synagogue worship liturgy to include a curse on the heretics (which meant the followers of Jesus). Obviously this turn of events between AD 70 and 90 made it increasingly difficult to remain both a Jew and a follower of Jesus. There was pressure on Jewish believers in Christ to abandon their faith in him. It is the match between the historical developments in Judaism in AD 70 to 90 and the concern of Matthew to show the Jewish connections to Jesus that lead most New Testament scholars to date Matthew between AD 75 and 90.
There is also minority of scholars who argue that Matthew was written in the 60’s (usually they opt for the early 60’s). Recently a small portion of a manuscript has been discovered that two scholars studying it claim to be a fragment of Matthew’s gospel. They also claim that it can be dated in the AD 50’s. There is presently considerable debate in the community of New Testament scholars as to whether the methods used by these two were valid methods and whether their conclusions were correct. Should further investigation support their conclusions the argument presented above could not be true and another explanation for the picture Matthew presents of his readers would need to be developed.
The debate about the date of Matthew is not a debate over the historical reliability of the gospel. It is an effort to best understand the circumstances in the early church that this gospel addressed. The better we understand those circumstances, the better we will understand the logic of the book, and the better we will be able to hear and apply its message to our own circumstances.
http://www.cresourcei.org/biblestudy/bbmatt1.html


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## creation's_cause (Jan 2, 2009)

Great discussion....and some great questions posted by farmasis in post #121 which I really don't believe got answered very well, if at all.  I have not seen, might have missed it....when the millennial reign of Christ was supposed to have started?  Around 70AD?  If it has started, how long was it supposed to last??  Forgive me if you already mentioned this I may have missed it.

I really find no definitive/new/different theology coming out of Dispensatioanlism.  I see it as a way to characterize or categorize various timelines occurring throughout scripture...not some radical departure from biblical doctrine intent on establishing a new sect of Christianity or something.  However, I would avoid trying to use these divisions in an attempt to put the Trinity in a box so to speak...but I also would have much difficulty with someone starting to write new or re-write current scriputure, claiming they were inspired and directed to do so....I do believe God has spoken his complete, authoritative, infalliable Word to us....and I am more than willing to entrust my eternal destiny to it, in its current form.


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## Banjo (Jan 2, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Now you sound like a Catholic.
> 
> Old or not, it is Biblically sound, unlike Preterism, IMO.





Just ask Dawg....he'll tell you that I am no Catholic.

Have you ever studied the Postmillenialism position by reading what POSTMILLENIALISTS write?  It is not enough to read what the Dispensationalists say about Preterism or Postmillenialism.  

Have you ever read Boettner's Millenium, DeMar's Last Days Madness, Murray's The Puritan Hope...etc.  

RIGHTLY DIVIDING GODS PEOPLE by Mathison.....

(This is rhetorical...and I am not trying to "dog you out" or anything....I am just trying to say that there are two sides to every story....)


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## farmasis (Jan 2, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Just ask Dawg....he'll tell you that I am no Catholic.
> 
> Have you ever studied the Postmillenialism position by reading what POSTMILLENIALISTS write? It is not enough to read what the Dispensationalists say about Preterism or Postmillenialism.
> 
> ...


 
I thought sticking to the Bible was the thing we should do.....Isn't that what I just been told..to not trust the words of man?

Seriously,

Again...I believe pretribulation rapture of the church harmonizes well with scripture. If I am wrong, either I will go through the tribulation or Jesus will simply just come.

I don't think the Great Tribulation has happened, because Matthew says Jesus will immediately return after it.

But, hey...It might all be symbolism.


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## Banjo (Jan 2, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I thought sticking to the Bible was the thing we should do.....Isn't that what I just been told..to not trust the words of man?
> 
> Seriously,
> 
> ...



If nothing else, it makes for some fun discussions on the GON forum....


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## rjcruiser (Jan 2, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I have said it before on here, but don't mind repeating it...Dispensationalism has damaged the church (sorry Farmasis, but I truly believe this).  After all, who wants to polish the brass on a sinking ship....Many (not all, you guys) Dispensationalists are content to just wait on Jesus to come back and rapture them out of this old wicked world.
> 
> I want to reclaim it for Christ.





Banjo said:


> Hey...pigpen, you and Farmasis do have something in common.  I bet you both believe this world is just going to continue to deteriorate.  The gospel really won't be victorious on this earth.
> 
> I call it pessimillenialism.



Okay...back from vacation  This thread has really gotten good.  Farmasis, I think you've done a great job in putting the reasons a pre-trib rapture are there.  Not sure on your dating of Matthew, but hey, your pre-trib, so we agree on that.

One thing though....Banjo, you say your pessimillenialism and that the gospel won't be victorious on this earth, but then later on say that Dispensationalists are content to wait on the Lord?  Which is it?  Do you want to reclaim the world for Christ? or just wait until Christ establishes a new kingdom?



Banjo said:


> All right...I am out of here for a bit.  I have to go play a few round of Mario Karts with the children before reading them Swiss Family Robinson...
> 
> You guys keep posting; I'll look forward to reading it later.



Ah..MarioKart.  On the Wii, you can play online.  My wife and I actually play on Wednesday nights with another couple in our church after we get the kids in bed.  If you have the Wii, we are always looking for more competition


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## Banjo (Jan 2, 2009)

O.k. Farmasis...here comes backup...

I was trying to get all this in before RJ got back



> One thing though....Banjo, you say your pessimillenialism and that the gospel won't be victorious on this earth, but then later on say that Dispensationalists are content to wait on the Lord? Which is it? Do you want to reclaim the world for Christ? or just wait until Christ establishes a new kingdom?



I was jokingly calling Farmasis and Pigpen "pessimillenialists" because they expect the world to just go down the drain....wickedness prevailing...

Christ's kingdom is NOW....The Bible teaches His enemies are being placed up under His precious feet....PRESENTLY...The gospel will prevail, and righteousness will cover the earth.  Where sin abounds....grace abounds MORE...

I believe in VICTORY....



> On the Wii, you can play online. My wife and I actually play on Wednesday nights with another couple in our church after we get the kids in bed. If you have the Wii, we are always looking for more competition



We did get a Wii for Christmas, and have hooked it up to our internet so the girls can look at weather all over the globe.  Are you saying that my family could play yours?  How does that work....If we can figure it out, then I say...."BRING IT!"

(I should admit, that frankly I stink at Mario Karts and am always falling off into the water, but were there a little outside competition involved, I could practice .)


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## pigpen1 (Jan 2, 2009)

farmasis said:


> yes, usually Pretribers have to try and change when Revelation was written to fit their doctrine.
> 
> Matthew was written between 70-110 AD.



  Genesis was writing  way after Adam and Eve but that don't mean that it didn't happen...


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## pigpen1 (Jan 2, 2009)

creation's_cause said:


> Great discussion....and some great questions posted by farmasis in post #121 which I really don't believe got answered very well, if at all.  I have not seen, might have missed it....when the millennial reign of Christ was supposed to have started?  Around 70AD?  If it has started, how long was it supposed to last??  Forgive me if you already mentioned this I may have missed it.
> 
> Ok Christ's kingdom began on Earth when he was Born...remember what John preached '' repent ye for the kingdom is at hand'' what does at hand mean???
> 
> ...


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## pigpen1 (Jan 2, 2009)

Got to go butcher a 400+lb hog, might be late but I'll be back......


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## rjcruiser (Jan 2, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Got to go butcher a 400+lb hog, might be late but I'll be back......



Did you kill it?  

I must say, I butchered a big one and a smaller one a couple of weeks ago and it was a task.  Much more difficult than a deer....but boy, the sausage is really really really good


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## pigpen1 (Jan 2, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Did you kill it?
> 
> I must say, I butchered a big one and a smaller one a couple of weeks ago and it was a task.  Much more difficult than a deer....but boy, the sausage is really really really good



yes, but it wasn't a wild one, it was in a pen in the back yard...lol..we are in the proscess of working it up...I had to take a brake...lol.... be back soon..


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## pigpen1 (Jan 2, 2009)

farmasis said:


> He sure can, but he cannot come back at the second coming yet.



ok, what about the abomonation in matthew 24:15, that has to be in the temple??? there is no temple 

 Then there is this verse...2nd Thessalonians 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, AND the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.....the falling away has happened, but the man of sin that you call the antichrist has not been revealed....so by your teaching this has to take place prior to the rapture...

   I thought I would repost this I never Got any responce to it....be back soon..


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## mtnwoman (Jan 2, 2009)

farmasis said:


> The language may in fact be symbolic, but the context is literal. Jesus may in fact return on a white horse, or not. But, he will come and we will be with him. I doubt a literal sword will come from his mouth, but the sword will be his spoken word. But, it will come and it will act as a sword.



I too believe the Word is the sword. I can sure sharpen my sword around here scrambling to copy and paste scripture....that's a good thing.

And the Word of God is sharper than any two edged sword...one of my favorite scriptures....I have an umpire in my soul the Holy Ghost....'don't go there, don't say that, don't drink that, don't smoke that,hey you fouled, and you're out of the game'....LOL

Hebrews 4:12 (King James Version)

 12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 2, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> yes, but it wasn't a wild one, it was in a pen in the back yard...lol..we are in the proscess of working it up...I had to take a brake...lol.... be back soon..



Oh...so that is your screenname...one pig in the pen...so are you going to change it to pigfreezer1


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## pigpen1 (Jan 2, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Oh...so that is your screenname...one pig in the pen...so are you going to change it to pigfreezer1



 no I might change it to nopiginpen...


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## farmasis (Jan 2, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> ok, what about the abomonation in matthew 24:15, that has to be in the temple??? there is no temple


 
For the rapture, nothing has to happen. For his second coming, you are correct. To me they are two seperate events.

But, the Bible said he would build his temple in the hearts of men, so symbolically  it could already be fulfilled.



> Then there is this verse...2nd Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, AND the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.....the falling away has happened, but the man of sin that you call the antichrist has not been revealed....so by your teaching this has to take place prior to the rapture...
> 
> I thought I would repost this I never Got any responce to it....be back soon..


 
Once again, the second coming-- not the rapture. I think it will happen in the Great Tribulation. Great point for preterist to consider.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 2, 2009)

farmasis said:


> For the rapture, nothing has to happen. For his second coming, you are correct. To me they are two seperate events.
> 
> But, the Bible said he would build his temple in the hearts of men, so symbolically  it could already be fulfilled.
> 
> ...



2 Thess 2:1-3
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
KJV
 see this is where many premill's have a problem, because they teach the falling away as a sign of the LORDS return ''rapture'', but in vrs 3 it says falling away first, AND that man of sin be revealed..... the 'AND' is a conjuction that ties both together and this means both will have to happen before his return...how can you seperate these??

  Notice the last part of vrs 1.... and OUR gathering together UNTO him.....if this was talking about what you call the second coming shouldn't we be ''coming back with him'' and not ''gathering unto him''... gathering unto him sounds like  what you call ''rapture'' ?????

   so please explain this???????


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## rjcruiser (Jan 2, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> 2 Thess 2:1-3
> 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
> 
> 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
> ...




Do you not "gather up" the troops when going into battle?


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## farmasis (Jan 3, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> 2 Thess 2:1-3
> 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
> 
> 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
> ...


 
It fits exactly with the rapture. I think you are confusing the rapture and the second coming.

The rapture happens, the falling away, the antichrist revealed, Jesus comes back.

We are gathered together with him in heaven at the marriage supper of the Lamb, not on earth.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 3, 2009)

farmasis said:


> It fits exactly with the rapture. I think you are confusing the rapture and the second coming.
> 
> The rapture happens, the falling away, the antichrist revealed, Jesus comes back.
> 
> We are gathered together with him in heaven at the marriage supper of the Lamb, not on earth.



 NO, it says the falling away and man of sin be reveled first , before that "DAY" can come...vrs 3 is still talking about vrs 1...you are taking things out of place...

 vrs 1 is talking about the Lords RETURN for the saved people ''CHURCH'' that is here on earth...thats plain to see. It says NOTICE " OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM''... by your teaching we should be with already..you are using these vrs like the white horse return, but these are used in context with these vrs you call the RAPTURE.
1 Thess 4:16-17

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
NOTICE these vrs in 1 THESS 4:16-17 and 2THESS 2:1-3 PAUL is still discussing the same subject... read the context.. you are trying to make this into a event that it is not....

 you still haven't explained if this is after the ''rapture'' how is he gathering us unto him????


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## pigpen1 (Jan 3, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Do you not "gather up" the troops when going into battle?



 notice RJ Paul is talking to people here that were looking for him to come deliver them from the evil they were facing...he didn't say gathering a army, but said gathering UNTO him.....The church is not with him yet but soon he will gather it UNTO him....thats the context and it is plain...


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## farmasis (Jan 3, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> NO, it says the falling away and man of sin be reveled first , before that "DAY" can come...vrs 3 is still talking about vrs 1...you are taking things out of place...
> 
> vrs 1 is talking about the Lords RETURN for the saved people ''CHURCH'' that is here on earth...thats plain to see. It says NOTICE " OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM''... by your teaching we should be with already..you are using these vrs like the white horse return, but these are used in context with these vrs you call the RAPTURE.
> 1 Thess 4:16-17
> ...


 
The Rapture, the removal of the church....

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.<SUP>[b]</SUP>
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive _and_ remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive _and_ remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thes 4)

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,<SUP>[e]</SUP> but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah _were,_ so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two _men_ will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two _women will be_ grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. (Matt 24)

10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev 3)

9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thes 5)


And it _is_ the time of Jacob’s trouble, 
      But he shall be saved out of it. (Jer 30)

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

This is the second coming. It is after the rapture. We will not be gathered unto him, until the marriage supper is complete. Jesus will come get us to prepare us for the marriage supper.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 
9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed _are_ those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (Rev 19)


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## pigpen1 (Jan 3, 2009)

farmasis said:


> The Rapture, the removal of the church....
> 
> 13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.<SUP>[b]</SUP>
> 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive _and_ remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive _and_ remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thes 4)
> ...



 I understand the meaing of rapture it meanst to be caught up or gathered up and that is the context of this scripture..
2 Thess 2:1-3

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
KJV

 so that day can not come until these be fulfilled...

 The man two differances between your doctrine and mine is...1 the tribulation is not wrath, the wrath of GOD no one in history except the saved have escaped..[ noah-lot] they faced tribulation but not wrath....

 2-is seperating Jesus's return for the church and then returning again 7yrs later.....he has been here 1 time the next will be the 2nd but you have a 3rd.... and it don't fit...


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## pigpen1 (Jan 3, 2009)

farmasis said:


> The Rapture, the removal of the church....
> 
> 
> 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two _men_ will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two _women will be_ grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. (Matt 24]
> ...


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## farmasis (Jan 3, 2009)

pigpen1 said:
			
		

> The Rapture, the removal of the church....
> 
> 
> 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two _men_ will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two _women will be_ grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. (Matt 24]
> ...


 
He will take the church ALL AWAY.

We are not guarenteed a second chance. If someone can be saved during the tribulation it will be very hard. The Holy Spirit will be removed and the threat of persection and death will loom for those that will accept Jesus. If someone will not accept him now, how will they then?
The purpose of the tribulation is for God to tur his attention to Israel.



> Notice the last part of vrs 39 it says '' coming of The Son of Man'', you say his coming is not until after the rapture and trib, but then read vrs 40 two men one taken and the other left...you use this to prove the rapture, but have it out of order to Christ's coming??? so please explain???


 
We know it is after the tribulation because it says so......

The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven.

We know the church will not be there because of all the verses that I have already put about us not enduring the tribulation.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 3, 2009)

farmasis said:


> He will take the church ALL AWAY.
> 
> We are not guarenteed a second chance. If someone can be saved during the tribulation it will be very hard. The Holy Spirit will be removed and the threat of persection and death will loom for those that will accept Jesus. If someone will not accept him now, how will they then?
> The purpose of the tribulation is for God to tur his attention to Israel.
> ...



 You are missunderstanding me, I believe the Lord will take us out of here....do you think these scriptures are talking about the rapture??Matt 24:40-42

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


KJV


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## farmasis (Jan 3, 2009)

Pigpen,

Time for you to answer some questions. 


Who are the saints?....

11 Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you. 12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we _do_ to you, 13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. (1 Thes 3)


Who are the holy ones?

14Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones (Jude)

Who are the armies?

14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,<SUP>[f]</SUP> followed Him on white horses

Who are the ones?

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 
14 And I said to him, “Sir,<SUP>[b]</SUP> you know.” 
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Who are the saints?...

6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the<SUP>[d]</SUP> Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 
9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed _are_ those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (rev 19)

 and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (Zech 4:5)


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## farmasis (Jan 3, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> You are missunderstanding me, I believe the Lord will take us out of here....do you think these scriptures are talking about the rapture??Matt 24:40-42
> 
> 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
> 
> ...


 
I guess not, because it says after the tribulation. So, if I said otherwise I may have misspoke.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 3, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Pigpen,
> 
> Time for you to answer some questions.
> 
> ...



 ok first the Saints are the saved that have died..1 Thess 4:13-14

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
KJV
NOTICE VRS 14.....

 The HOLY ONES are also the saints..[ read the same vrs out of the KJV] it says saints not holy ones...

 The armies in heaven, they are the saints and the angels...

The ''ones ''are all the saved those that from the church age... beginning till end...notice.. they have washed their robes in the Blood of the Lamb.....not by endurement, or works.....but by being washed in the Blood...salvation....

  See  the church is still in tribulation today and it will get worse...The events of 70ad was for Israel but Matthew 24 is a double fulfillment scripture, notice in Matt 24:16 it is talking about Judaea and also in verse 2 Jesus tells them the temple will not have one stone left upon another...that happened.....that's why he told them this is going to come to pass, so if you hear that Christ has come back or is over here or over there don't believe it . He said in vrs27 for as the lighting cometh out of the east and shineth unto the west so shall also the coming of the SON of MAN be.
    So in other words all this very bad stuff is going to happen to you my disciples, but the end is not yet, for when I come back the whole world will know...don't be deceived.

 Notice vrs 30 then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn....it goes from Judaea in vrs 16 to tribes of the earth mourn....2 different events one has happened the other hasn't yet....vrs 31  thru the end of the chapter is talking about the '' rapture''... The 1st was is judaea, The next will be the whole earth...


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## farmasis (Jan 4, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> ok first the Saints are the saved that have died..1 Thess 4:13-14
> 
> 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
> 
> ...


 
I couldn't agree with you more......But, guess what, the second coming hasn't happened yet in each of those scriptures. Because of the rapture, those verses are true.



> See the church is still in tribulation today and it will get worse...The events of 70ad was for Israel but Matthew 24 is a double fulfillment scripture, notice in Matt 24:16 it is talking about Judaea and also in verse 2 Jesus tells them the temple will not have one stone left upon another...that happened.....that's why he told them this is going to come to pass, so if you hear that Christ has come back or is over here or over there don't believe it . He said in vrs27 for as the lighting cometh out of the east and shineth unto the west so shall also the coming of the SON of MAN be.
> So in other words all this very bad stuff is going to happen to you my disciples, but the end is not yet, for when I come back the whole world will know...don't be deceived.
> 
> Notice vrs 30 then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn....it goes from Judaea in vrs 16 to tribes of the earth mourn....2 different events one has happened the other hasn't yet....vrs 31 thru the end of the chapter is talking about the '' rapture''... The 1st was is judaea, The next will be the whole earth...


 
I do not doubt the tribulation is a future event. That is Banjo that thinks it already happened.

God promised to remove his people from the great tribulation. His people are not the tribes of the earth.

9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. (1 Thes 5)

10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. (Rev 3)


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## pigpen1 (Jan 4, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I couldn't agree with you more......But, guess what, the second coming hasn't happened yet in each of those scriptures. Because of the rapture, those verses are true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Did you read what I wrote???


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## pigpen1 (Jan 4, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> See  the church is still in tribulation today and it will get worse...The events of 70ad was for Israel but Matthew 24 is a double fulfillment scripture, notice in Matt 24:16 it is talking about Judaea and also in verse 2 Jesus tells them the temple will not have one stone left upon another...that happened.....that's why he told them this is going to come to pass, so if you hear that Christ has come back or is over here or over there don't believe it . He said in vrs27 for as the lighting cometh out of the east and shineth unto the west so shall also the coming of the SON of MAN be.
> So in other words all this very bad stuff is going to happen to you my disciples, but the end is not yet, for when I come back the whole world will know...don't be deceived.
> 
> Notice vrs 30 then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn....it goes from Judaea in vrs 16 to tribes of the earth mourn....2 different events one has happened the other hasn't yet....vrs 31  thru the end of the chapter is talking about the '' rapture''... The 1st was is judaea, The next will be the whole earth...



 Notice the time frame matt 24 is not all about the same event....It goes from telling the disciples about the temple and the destruction in JUDAEA [ vrs 16] To a later event that involves the whole Earth[vrs 30] then vrs 31 thru the end of the chapter is talking about the what you call the'' Rapture''...


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## pigpen1 (Mar 22, 2009)

bump...


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## reformedpastor (Mar 22, 2009)

Two questions for the dispy's. 

1. What happens to the folks that are raptured out and carried away?

2. What happens to the folks left behind?


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## pigpen1 (Mar 23, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> Two questions for the dispy's.
> 
> 1. What happens to the folks that are raptured out and carried away?
> 
> 2. What happens to the folks left behind?



 Another question I have also, is during the so called 7yr trib, those that have been "raptured" are supposedly at the marriage supper. The premills say the marriage supper can't start without them[the saved]. What about those that the dispy's say are being saved on earth during that time, how can the marriage supper start with out them???


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## celticfisherman (Mar 23, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Another question I have also, is during the so called 7yr trib, those that have been "raptured" are supposedly at the marriage supper. The premills say the marriage supper can't start without them[the saved]. What about those that the dispy's say are being saved on earth during that time, how can the marriage supper start with out them???





There's a bunch of reasons why this stuff makes no sense...


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## reformedpastor (Mar 23, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Another question I have also, is during the so called 7yr trib, those that have been "raptured" are supposedly at the marriage supper. The premills say the marriage supper can't start without them[the saved]. What about those that the dispy's say are being saved on earth during that time, how can the marriage supper start with out them???



I understand. I would like to hear them answer these questions.


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## farmasis (Mar 23, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> Two questions for the dispy's.
> 
> 1. What happens to the folks that are raptured out and carried away?


 
Not sure exactly what you mean what happens to them.
They are carried away to heaven..




> 2. What happens to the folks left behind?


 
They will experience the tribulation.


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## farmasis (Mar 23, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Another question I have also, is during the so called 7yr trib, those that have been "raptured" are supposedly at the marriage supper. The premills say the marriage supper can't start without them[the saved]. What about those that the dispy's say are being saved on earth during that time, how can the marriage supper start with out them???


 
When did the marriage feast take place in the Bible in relationship to the actual marriage? Before or after?


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## reformedpastor (Mar 23, 2009)

> farmasis;3367641]Not sure exactly what you mean what happens to them.
> They are carried away to heaven..


 
 Carried away to heaven for what? 




> They will experience the tribulation.



Then what?


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## farmasis (Mar 23, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> Carried away to heaven for what?


 
All we are told is that the church will not suffer the Great tribulation. (Rev 3:10) and that the bride is preparing herself for marriage (Rev 19:7) and preparing for battle (Rev 19:19).




> Then what?


 
Those who are killed for Christ's sake will rise and recieve their glorified bodies. Those who are alive and survive the tribulation and do not take the mark will join those resurrected from the first resurrection (church, OT saints and those killed for Christ in the tribulation). Christ will set up his earthly kingdom rule for 1000 years while he restores the curses of earth and man and fulfills the promises made to Jews.


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## farmasis (Mar 23, 2009)

Now, a few questions about amillenialism/preterism...


Who was THE anti-christ?

Why didn't Christ return immediately after tribulation, as promised in Matt 24?

Who were the two witnesses and when was it recorded that they lay dead for three and a half days and then resurrected and ascended to heaven? Surely that made the news.


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## pigpen1 (Mar 23, 2009)

farmasis said:


> When did the marriage feast take place in the Bible in relationship to the actual marriage? Before or after?



 When are we married to Christ???Rom 7:4

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
KJV

 If the Church was not Married to Christ now, then those that are "born" would not be Sons and Daughters, but be *******s....


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## farmasis (Mar 23, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> When are we married to Christ???Rom 7:4
> 
> 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
> KJV
> ...


 

Not that you answered my question at all.....

But we are adopted sons and daughters (Eph 1:5) that will constitute the bride of Christ (Eph 5:25-27), currently betrothed(Matt 9:15), and will be presented to Christ (2 Cor 11:2).


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## pigpen1 (Mar 24, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Not that you answered my question at all.....
> 
> But we are adopted sons and daughters (Eph 1:5) that will constitute the bride of Christ (Eph 5:25-27), currently betrothed(Matt 9:15), and will be presented to Christ (2 Cor 11:2).



 I guess you do not believe in the New Birth....


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