# My belief



## Randy (Sep 21, 2005)

Since Geuax's "the only way" thread and the evolution thread I have had several PM's asking how I can believe in evolution and be a christian.  Several have indicated they are praying for me to hear and see the truth.  As geaux asked in "the only way" thread, it is apparent that many christians believe that if I or anybody else does not believe as they do then we are doomed.  Look at all the different beliefs and denominations that have developed because christians got hung up on one belief or another.  You think everybody else is wrong?  You may be the one that is wrong?  Like we hunters argueing against other hunters over baiting, we christians turn others against christianity because we believe our way is "the only way."

Here is my belief:  There is only one way to Heaven and that is by accepting Christ as your Savior.  That's it!  That is the most important thing.  All the other stuff in the Bible may or may not be literally right.  Whether it is or is not is a matter between you and God.  See I believe if you listen to God and study the Bible, He will tell you what it means.  And in fact I think He intends for it to be a little vague so we will ask for His guidance.  There have even been times when something meant one thing to me in my early walk with God and now it means something different.

Because we each have different lives and experiences our interpretations are different.  The Bible is a guide to how we live our lives.  It may or may not be literal!  There are parts that are and parts that aren't.  How do I know?  God told me so.  Does it matter?  No.  It only matters in my realtionship with him.   We get hung up on what the Bible means.  We debate and argue to a fault.  To a point where we as christians turn against each other!  Only one thing matters all the rest is a guide to get there.

When I was in school we studied Greek Mythology.  We had many discussions on the similarities between the greek gods and the christian God.  Zeus could ride his chariot on water.  There are some that believe the Christians said Jesus could walk on water because they wanted our God to be better than the Greek's god.  Zeus was born to a virgin mother.  HMMMMM?  Are these things coincidence?  Does it matter?  Not to me.  I love to talk about religions and beliefs but other's beliefs have no effect on my relationship with my God.

I have heard it said that we will know the truth when we get to Heaven.  I don't think so.  Can you imagine God's response when we ask?  I imagine he will say "Is it important or is it only important that you are here with me?"  I know my answer to that question.  No!   I think how and why will be the last thing on our minds.

So if these things are important to you in your relationship with God then fine.  But don't say I am no christian and I am doomed if I do not agree with you.  If there is only one way then how are you so sure it is your way?  The fact is there is only one way but all that other stuff is not material to getting in to Heaven.

Yes this is only my belief and you do not and should not accept it.  But you should also not condem it.  You may be the one that is wrong!  Study the Bible and ask God for guidance and he will tell you what is right for you!

Good night and God Bless Us ALL!


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## CAL (Sep 21, 2005)

Randy,
That is quite a mouth full and I find myself agreeing with what you are saying.I believe everyones relationship with God is somewhat private in one sense.Like you I believe the most important thing is to believe in Jesus and that he died for our sins and the only way to the farther is thru Him and no other way.

If thru Grace I am able to get to heaven,I can't see me asking God a whole lot of questions.I will be to proud to be there!I have never questioned someones belief in God but I will try to sway a person towards believing rather than see them make the greatest mistake in their lives by not believing.Jesus said,"if you donot acknowledge me before men I will not acknowledge you before my Farther who is in heaven".


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## Hooty Hoot (Sep 21, 2005)

That took some thought and you articulated it well. I wish that I would have said it. Great post......hoot


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## Paymaster (Sep 21, 2005)

Good Post Randy.


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## Ta-ton-ka chips (Sep 21, 2005)

Great post, Randy!
So who'll be first to say my God can beat up your God.....
Oh yeah.... let's start a war!


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## RThomas (Sep 21, 2005)

Good job, Randy.  You understand that your beliefs are YOUR beliefs.  And though they may not be right for everyone, they are right for you.  I wish everyone held your views.


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## Carp (Sep 21, 2005)

Amen brother!


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## jason308 (Sep 21, 2005)

Randy- I am not to condemn you for your views, as you said belief in Jesus Christ and accepting Him as your personal savior is the key to eternity in Heaven- but is not the Bible the Word of God? Do we just take the parts that we think fit for our own lives? I can't say what happens between you and the Lord, only you and Him know that. But aren't we to believe the Bible and what it says? Or is it all just fairy tales except the part in the Gospels about Jesus being the gateway to Salvation? I personally find it unbelievable that the Bible states that God created man in His own image BUT that all life evolved (homo sapiens included) and He created "in His own image" a bacterium (which is the univeral ancestor according to the accepted theory of evolution) to then evolve into homo sapiens millions of years later? Did God wait to send His only begotten Son until he had fully evolved from that same bacterium and was up to speed with the rest of the world? I am just wondering, not condemning. What about the Ten Commandments? Do they apply personally? Thou shalt not steal unless this doesn't apply to you personally? ONCE MORE I am not saying there are some special things to believe to get into Heaven, belief in Christ is the only way.


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## Lthomas (Sep 22, 2005)

Some folks have a hard time with the evolution of things. As I said, no I dont think my ancestors were monkeys, However, I have an uncle that would be a perfect poster boy proving we did. LOL. 
I agree with you on this one randy. Things are not revield in the same manner to one as another when it comes to reading the scripture. 
Some folks say that we were created in Gods own image. 
Here is food for thaught. 
In the book of genesis it gives a very good description of God. "God is a spirit" Therefore one can conclude that we were made spirit before we were made flesh and then we were truly of his own image. Not only that, there is scripture that refers to God knowing us before we were even born. This affirms in my own opinion that our spirit is the reflection of God. Not the vessel that contains it. The body we live in is not a reflection of God. 
I am still looking for some script in the bible where it describes God other than a spirit. 
How and what vessel he put us into dose not matter. All that matters is that he did create the body his way. No one other than him knows in what exact order it took to make us in our physical form Nor how long it took. God dose not punch a time clock. If someone can say we did not descend from apes, it realy dose not matter. If someone can say our physical form was created as it is, it realy dose not matter.  Here is more food for thaught. No one can prove their point. Only God has all the answers. As Randy said. That is all trivial and mean nothing. 
If those are the questions we have when we are present before God, We truly are doomed. 
I just know that I am not gonna cap or set limitations to the capabilitys that God has regarding his own ways of creation. It is not up to me to determine what he did or did not do in regards to my physical exhistance.


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## GeauxLSU (Sep 22, 2005)

Good post Randy.  I hated that thread immediately went to evolution but you were in fact right, it did sort of answer the question.  I have never been so naive to assume my feeble mind has all the right answers concerning something so immense as our Creator.  If I encounter a Christian who has different religious belief's than I, I listen and think about their stance and my own stance, and I go on.  I can't imagine telling someone they are 'wrong' or will burn because of the myriad of ridiculously trivial things we like to debate when it comes to religion.  Sad thing is, there's a good chance we are BOTH wrong.  I 'think', when it comes to the bible, the bottom line is this and many have said it directly or indirectly before.  If you believe one thing literally how can you not take it ALL literally?  That is a BIG conflict for some.  It just is not for me.   The Nicene Creed I posted in another thread I did intentionally to see if we had that fundamental common ground.  It appeared we did (by and large).  Beyond those fundamentals, the rest I believe is for OUR enrichment, study, and benefit.  It should be to HELP us, not break us down or apart.  Though I desire to understand more and will strive until I'm planted in the ground to do so, whether or not I have the 100% 'correct' understanding of every chapter and verse I honestly believe is irrelevant.  And in some cases very much so.  He told me how I need His son in my heart.  He showed me why with His ultimate sacrifice and He clearly told me what the greatest commandment is.  Beyond that, I'm just not as concerned as many.  
This may sound harsh but I've no doubt it helps some folks in their own beliefs to convince others that they have the 'right' answer(s).  That whole 'safety in numbers' thing.  With all due respect to all my Christian brothers and sisters, I don't NEED that type of endorsement of the minutia and will not placate yours for the sake of your piece of mind on a particular subject.  That sounds colder than I'd like but I don't know how else to say it.  I'm not going to 'challenge' your specific interpretation to the point of saying emphatically that you are 'wrong', but I may ask to see how/why you believe the way you do as it might effect my understandings.  If it does or doesn't effect my belief I'd hope you be just as comfortable with my relationship with Christ.  Like I said, do you have Him in your heart, do you believe in His sacrifice, do you live that way?  That's it.  
I honestly think He sheds tears when he hears some of the arguements that divide believers especially when I bet many times they are BOTH passionately WRONG about something that at the end of the day, actually doesn't matter.  
I'll go fossil hunting with you any day Randy.  We can talk about hunting.


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## jason308 (Sep 22, 2005)

Lthomas said:
			
		

> Some folks say that we were created in Gods own image.
> Here is food for thaught.
> In the book of genesis it gives a very good description of God. "God is a spirit" Therefore one can conclude that we were made spirit before we were made flesh and then we were truly of his own image. Not only that, there is scripture that refers to God knowing us before we were even born. This affirms in my own opinion that our spirit is the reflection of God. Not the vessel that contains it. The body we live in is not a reflection of God.
> I am still looking for some script in the bible where it describes God other than a spirit.




We are all composed of spirit, soul, and body right? What about God forming man from the dust of the earth? And then taking a RIB from the man and making woman from the rib? Just more situational fairy tales I suppose.


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## RThomas (Sep 22, 2005)

One of my all-time favorite quotes:
"I have seen several entirely sincere people who thought they were (permanent) Seekers after Truth. They sought diligently, persistently, carefully, cautiously, profoundly, with perfect honesty and nicely adjusted judgment--until they believed that without doubt or question they had found the Truth. That was the end of the search. The man spent the rest of his life hunting up shingles wherewith to protect his Truth from the weather. If he was seeking after political Truth he found it in one or another of the hundred political gospels which govern men in the earth; if he was seeking after the Only True Religion he found it in one or another of the three thousand that are on the market. In any case, when he found the Truth he sought no further; *but from that day forth, with his soldering-iron in one hand and his bludgeon in the other he tinkered its leaks and reasoned with objectors*." (from What is Man?) 

-- Mark Twain


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## Randy (Sep 22, 2005)

jason308 said:
			
		

> We are all composed of spirit, soul, and body right? What about God forming man from the dust of the earth? And then taking a RIB from the man and making woman from the rib? Just more situational fairy tales I suppose.



Let me say one thing about "what the Bible says."  Nobody will ever understand exactly what the Bible says.  In a lot of cases, Jesus was speaking so that the people of THAT day would understand.  We can not understand because we do not know how they that he wa speaking to understood.  Theologians the world over study this stuff  every day adn they do not agree!  Read the Bible in the spirit of God and he will tell you what it means to you THAT day.


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## Randy (Sep 22, 2005)

jason308 said:
			
		

> Just more situational fairy tales I suppose.


I prefer to use the word Parables instead of fairy tales.  Do you think that if God had tried to tell these people about x/y cromozones and genes they would have understood?  Some times he has to use words and descriptions that the people of THAT day can understand.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 22, 2005)

Good thing He made it very simple.....   Believe.

He didn't qualify it by having one know the Old Testament inside and out, or if the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 were angels or actual men, or  if having ones "name blotted out of the Book of Life" meant physical death or spiritual death.     I believe Genesis 6 was referring to angels, and I believe that someone can lose their salvation after they are saved if they choose to reject it.    I believe that Jesus Christ was God's son, and that God raised Him from the dead three days later.  

"Christ and Him crucified" is all Paul taught....

Bandy


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## Lthomas (Sep 22, 2005)

jason308 said:
			
		

> We are all composed of spirit, soul, and body right? What about God forming man from the dust of the earth? And then taking a RIB from the man and making woman from the rib? Just more situational fairy tales I suppose.


All things that are biological are products from the earth. So making us from dust would be correct. He took a rib from Adam. No argument here. 
So the bible tells us he made this body from the dust. It also explains how Eve got an extra rib. What it dose not say is 
How long it took to make us
What steps were used in making us
The bible dose say what day he made man. However, I am of the understanding that a day has no measure to God. 
So with some thaught I would have to say that a monkey could have possibly been a tool in our creation. Do I know this? NO. It could have just as easily not have been a tool in our creation. 
I realy dont care either which way. 
I am not trying to argue a case for evolutionists. I am arguing the case that no one truly has the answers other than God. I see way to many folks trying to seperate God from Science. The truth of the matter is that God is all that matters in science. 
It dose get old seeing folks wearing christian banners claiming they do know all that is God. This is one reason I have not been to church in many years. Way to much Idealisim and not enough worshipinism. 
It is that same idealism that puts restrictions on Gods love, charity, and mercy. I lean on his mercy every day.
As the bible says.
ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE THRU GOD.


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## jason308 (Sep 22, 2005)

Well, if we all accept Christ as our Savior we will spend eternity in Heaven. I was not trying to hijack your thread Randy, neither was I trying to downgrade this forum. And I CERTAINLY am not trying to say that I know everything about God, no man can even scratch the surface.


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## reylamb (Sep 22, 2005)

While time has no meaning to God, it clearly does to man.  God was very specific with the time frame of creation, the evening and the morning were the first day, etc.  It is clear with the Scripture to see that yes indeed, a day was a day in the creation account, not millions of years.

If the Bible is not true and complete in totality, what parts are true and what parts are false?  How can one have faith that Jesus is the Son of God and the only means of salvation if the Word is not accurate?

God is more than a physical being, he is body sould and spirit, 3 in one.  In Genesis 3:8 we read that Adam and Eve heard God walking in the garden.  If he does not have a physical body and is spirit only, what sound did they hear?  We also read in Exodus 33:20 that God has a face.  Sounds like a physical body to me.

Keep in mind, sin is not allowed in the presence of God.  As such the normal manifestation of God to man is through a Spirit, as man can not look upon God and live according to Exodus 33:20.


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## jason308 (Sep 22, 2005)

*Reylamb..........*

Thanks for putting my thoughts into words.


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 22, 2005)

At one time in my life, though I believed in God, I did not have a relationship with Him.  I also believed God created things in such a way that we could understand.

But, once I developed a relationship with Him, I came to the realization that God does not intend for us to understand everything about Him, that He cannot be explained scientifically, mathmatically, or in any other terms we can understand.  Think, if we knew everything about Him, if we could explain how He does what He does in scientifically, doesn't that reduce God to something of just a slightly higher plane than man?  How can one scientifically explain unlimited supernatural power?

I cannot sit there and deny that there is scientific evidence that indicates the world is millions of years old.  Could God have caused physical matter of only a few thousand years old to scientifically appear as a million years old?  If He is all powerful He could.  

God defies all we will ever understand.  He said that one day, things will be made known to us.  I can stand to wait until He chooses to bring me home and then the "how did he do it" will be revealed unto me.  And until then, I simply will not question what God has chosen to reveal to me through His Word.


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## PWalls (Sep 22, 2005)

reylamb said:
			
		

> If the Bible is not true and complete in totality, what parts are true and what parts are false?  How can one have faith that Jesus is the Son of God and the only means of salvation if the Word is not accurate?



That's it in a nutshell for me. If I have enough faith to believe in the inerrancy of the Word of God when it comes to the passages about my salvation, then how can I not put faith in the rest of the Word? How can I pick and choose certain passages and meanings over others and decide what it right for me? I don't think you can do that. And as far as getting different meanings for different people, I don't buy that either. God's Word is inerrant and it is infallible. It means the same thing for me and you and everybody else. Now, different people will interpret the message differently, but the message is the same regardless of the interpretations.


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 22, 2005)

> And as far as getting different meanings for different people, I don't buy that either.



Neither do I.  I will submit that various applications can be made based upon individuals and their spiritual needs.  I will further submit that if different folks get different meanings, then someone is wrong, perhaps all of them.  There can be only one truth


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## Randy (Sep 26, 2005)

If it can not have different meanings to different people than why is there so many deniminations?  So you guys think that ONLY YOUR WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY.  Are you guys all the same denomination?  I hope so.  If not only one of you is right!


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 26, 2005)

I think there is some confusion between the words "Truth" and "meaning".   I see the "Truth" being Jesus and Him crucified, and "meaning" being the differences we have on subjects like baptism and healing and eternal salvation.   

I agree with you David, there can only be one truth.   For example, we can be eternally saved or not.   Some believe that we can lose our salvation, some believe it can't be lost.  (Denominations)    BOTH believe that salvation comes from having faith in Jesus Christ.  (TRUTH)

Bandy


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## Lthomas (Sep 26, 2005)

Some people see the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one entity, Others believe that they are a trinity. This alone indicates that not everyone gets the same message out of the bible.


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## reylamb (Sep 26, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> If it can not have different meanings to different people than why is there so many deniminations?  So you guys think that ONLY YOUR WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY.  Are you guys all the same denomination?  I hope so.  If not only one of you is right!


There is only one way, but it is not my way, your way, the Catholic way, the Baptist way, the Methodist way or any other man made way.  The only way is God's way, as Jesus said "no man cometh to the Father but by me," and "there is no other name given under heaven wherby men must be saved." The rest is semantics as long as we do not put any emphasis on anything other than faith in Christ as the only way to Heaven, everything else is immaterial.

The debates over any other issue has no bearing whatsoever on salvation.  The Bible says "For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourself; it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast."  It does not say for by grace and believing in x,y, and z are you saved, grace through faith is the only way.  2 denominations may have vastly different opinions on many areas, but as long as salvation is believed to come by grace through faith we are arguing the small stuff.

Anyone that says their way is the only way is wrong.  There is only one way, and that is God's way.


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## Randy (Sep 26, 2005)

Then why do some people say if I think evolution might be possible that I am no christian?  That was what I saw as the point of THE ONLY WAY thread that Geaux started.  Out of one side of our mouth we say the only way to Heaven is to believe and accept Christ.  Then we say if you do not believe othyer things as I do you are doomed.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 26, 2005)

Randy,

All I can say is that I think they are wrong to think that way.  I believe that as long as you have faith in Christ that you are saved, irregardless of what else you believe.     

Hypothetical question to those who think it matters what else we believe...

Lets say I told someone about the Lord, and they believed what I told them and, in turn, they accepted Christ.    Would they then lose their salvation because they thought Jesus didn't have any brothers or sisters?    It is doubtful that one of us has every doctrine down perfectly right.

Bandy


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## reylamb (Sep 26, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> Then why do some people say if I think evolution might be possible that I am no christian?  That was what I saw as the point of THE ONLY WAY thread that Geaux started.  Out of one side of our mouth we say the only way to Heaven is to believe and accept Christ.  Then we say if you do not believe othyer things as I do you are doomed.


Anyone that would state you are not a Christian for a belief on evolution or creation plays a very dangerous game.  God did not put us on this earth to judge another man's salvation, and we are specifically told not to do so.


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## PWalls (Sep 26, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> Then why do some people say if I think evolution might be possible that I am no christian?  That was what I saw as the point of THE ONLY WAY thread that Geaux started.  Out of one side of our mouth we say the only way to Heaven is to believe and accept Christ.  Then we say if you do not believe othyer things as I do you are doomed.



I have not read anyone say that, especially myself.

The only way to get to heaven is to accept the grace of God in His Son's sacrifice. Period. End of Story.

That is the only Truth that will get you to Heaven.

There are numerous interpretations by man. Notice, I said man. We can interpret scripture all day long. We can come up with different meanings all day long. That explains all the different denominations. However, at the end of the day, they are man's interpretations. There is only one correct interpretation though. I am no where near confident enough to say that what I believe in is that correct interpretation. As a matter of fact, since I am still learning new things and re-learning some old things, I would say I don't have the correct interpretations some times.

As far as your belief in evolution (or the possibility thereof), like I said in the other thread, that will only affect your standing or rewards in Heaven and not your entry into it. I take the Bible literally in its entirety based on my faith and convictions. I trust the Word of the Lord when He told me how to be saved, so I also trust that Word when He tells me how life began. For me, it is that simple.


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## PWalls (Sep 26, 2005)

reylamb said:
			
		

> Anyone that would state you are not a Christian for a belief on evolution or creation plays a very dangerous game.  God did not put us on this earth to judge another man's salvation, and we are specifically told not to do so.



Also, there isn't anyway a man can know the state of salvation of another man. All we can go by is evidences of "fruit" and such. That in of itself is tricky. Only God can know if someone is truly saved. So for a man to judge another man on that subject is wrong.


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 26, 2005)

Randy,

I’m not going to pretend to know what your relationship with Christ is like.  I don’t know how long you have been a believer or anything about you.

But, let me make a few points and if anyone wants Biblical references, I’ll go find them.  When we are “born again”, we are a new creation.  As a new creation, we are “babes in Christ”.  Not all knowledge and understanding is immediately known.  As we mature as Christians we begin to gain knowledge and understanding.  Some of this understanding requires that we put aside human logic and just accept God for what and who he is.  Some of this understanding involves the understanding that we will not understand everything about God because in His infinity, we just cannot begin to mentally grasp His ways and understanding.  It doesn’t matter about your earthly, physical age. Some folks get saved at a ripe old age, they are babes in Christ with less understanding that mature Christians who are maybe just earthly teenagers.

I believe many Christians had to “rethink” their understanding of the world once they became a Christian.  These are some of the struggles we have to go through in maturing as Christians.  We are told a number of times (in Scripture) that we are to separate ourselves from the world, to put away worldly thinking.  But we are human and it is our nature to want understanding.  Some Christians struggle more than others in ACCEPTING these things that don’t seem logical in human terms.

I don’t understand infinity as far as the “beginning” goes, how could there have been nothing before God created the universe?  I just can’t grasp that, I can’t understand it, but I ACCEPT it.  I’m not going to sit here and say you are not a Christian, perhaps you just haven’t spiritually matured to a level of acceptance.

I am only guessing about you, but this is what I have found to be commonplace.  In my own case, at a younger age, I used to think God made the world in such a way that we can understand it.  This was before I was saved.  I believed God existed, but I did not have a REAL relationship with Him.  Once I developed a real relationship with Him, I didn’t worry about how He did this or that, I just accepted the fact the He is God and His ways are so much above my ways and I will never, in this human existence, ever understand all of His ways.

The above may have some typos.


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## SADDADDY (Sep 26, 2005)

*cut and dry no matter how you look at it*

accepting Christ as your Savior is the only way


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## PWalls (Sep 26, 2005)

David Mills said:
			
		

> But, let me make a few points and if anyone wants Biblical references, I’ll go find them.  When we are “born again”, we are a new creation.  As a new creation, we are “babes in Christ”.  Not all knowledge and understanding is immediately known.  As we mature as Christians we begin to gain knowledge and understanding.  Some of this understanding requires that we put aside human logic and just accept God for what and who he is.  Some of this understanding involves the understanding that we will not understand everything about God because in His infinity, we just cannot begin to mentally grasp His ways and understanding.  It doesn’t matter about your earthly, physical age. Some folks get saved at a ripe old age, they are babes in Christ with less understanding that mature Christians who are maybe just earthly teenagers.



Well said. I agree as well.

I had several college-aged Christians who were very patient with this then 32 year old just-saved Christian. Theier spiritual maturity was greater than mine. I found it very amazing that these children were as mature as they were. Really drove home how far I had to go and what I needed to do.


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## Randy (Sep 26, 2005)

David,
I guess maybe what seperates me from you is that I do not accept as fact what any person tells me.  My relationship with Christ is just that, MY relationship with Him.  When I read the Bible, He tells me what it means.  I don't take anything from man as fact.


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 26, 2005)

> David,
> I guess maybe what seperates me from you is that I do not accept as fact what any person tells me.



Randy, 
It's not what any person has told me, that's part of the point I was trying to make.  It is true that I do take into account what is said in the pulpit, what I learn through various Bible studies, etc,.  But my acceptance of what is said is not an acceptance to what any man has said, it is an aceptance to what God tells us through his written, living word.  If ever I thought any part of the Bible is suspect or in doubt, then I have placed doubt on all of it.

How much of the Bible can I or anyone prove as fact?  I cannot prove that Jesus rose from the grave nor can I prove that he ascended into Heaven, no one can.  But Christianity is based upon those events.  If you believe these things happened, how did He do it?  It defies any scientific theory or human logic I have ever heard of.  But, I have no problem believing it because I accept that He is all powerful and he can make anything happen just by His will.

I hope and pray that you will consider these things.  By the same token, you could probably say the same thing about me and your opinion, but I have already been on that side of the fence.

Take care and God bless


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## PWalls (Sep 26, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> David,
> I guess maybe what seperates me from you is that I do not accept as fact what any person tells me.  My relationship with Christ is just that, MY relationship with Him.  When I read the Bible, He tells me what it means.  I don't take anything from man as fact.



Really? What about that theory of evolution? You personally know all the "facts" about it? Or, are you relying on learned scholars who have done the research to inform you of that theory so you can then base your acceptance of it on them? Unless you are related to Darwin somehow and have several degrees and such related to evolution, then I think it is pretty safe to say that you are listening to man and taking their opinion as fact.

As far as the Bible, I read it and pray about it. However, I also go to Church and hear the word preached from the pulpit and in Sunday School. I totally agree that a personal relationship with Christ is just that, PERSONAL. We each cultivate that relationship. How we cultivate it is where it gets muddy. I believe that God wants you to go to Church and hear His Word preached by people that He has called to preach it. If you don't listen to other Christian men, then you may be cutting off a line of information/truth that God was opening for you to experience.


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 26, 2005)

I couldn't agree more PWalls.  (BTW - I was in Cordele this past saturday playing Golf at vetern's)

Pro 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

The above Scripture accurately references the issue we are discussing.  This goes back to what I stated previously, we try to put things of God in a context we can understand when, in fact, God's ways are not within the realm of human understanding.  In doing so, we have lowered God's position in the order of things.


Matthew Henry:
We must have a continual regard to God’s providence, must own and depend upon it in all our affairs, both by faith and prayer. By faith. We must repose an entire confidence in the wisdom, power, and goodness of God, assuring ourselves of the extent of his providence to all the creatures and all their actions. We must therefore trust in the Lord with all our hearts; we must believe that he is able to do what he will, wise to do what is best, and good, according to his promise, to do what is best for us, if we love him, and serve him. We must, with an entire submission and satisfaction, depend upon him to perform all things for us, _and not lean to our own understanding_, as if we could, by any forecast of our own, without God, help ourselves, and bring our affairs to a good issue. Those who know themselves cannot but find their own understanding to be a broken reed, which, if they lean to, will certainly fail them. In all our conduct we must be diffident of our own judgment, and confident of God’s wisdom, power, and goodness, and therefore must follow Providence and not force it.


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## leroy (Sep 26, 2005)

You have to go on faith there is no solid proof you just have to take what the Bible says on faith! I also believe and is preached in our church that the Bible is the infalable and inherit word of God.  It says God created man from the dust of the earth then thats what I believe.


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## blindhog (Sep 26, 2005)

Death did not enter until sin, sin did not enter until man and woman.
To have evolution, death would have had to occur before sin entered.

Anti-scriptural!


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## Todd E (Sep 26, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> David,
> I guess maybe what seperates me from you is that I do not accept as fact what any person tells me.  My relationship with Christ is just that, MY relationship with Him.  When I read the Bible, He tells me what it means.  I don't take anything from man as fact.




Randy, I'm gonna be straight up and ask you a straightforward question.

If you DON'T accept ANYTHING from man as fact, then why are you constantly asking questions on this forum? Do you have it all figured out?


I really would like to know the honest answer for it. Please PM me, if needed.


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## PWalls (Sep 27, 2005)

David,

That is a good quote by Matthew Henry. Sums it up nicely.


Also, if you picked up any golf balls out of the woods, then PM me for my address and you can return them to their rightful owner.


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## Randy (Sep 27, 2005)

Todd E said:
			
		

> Randy, I'm gonna be straight up and ask you a straightforward question.
> 
> If you DON'T accept ANYTHING from man as fact, then why are you constantly asking questions on this forum? Do you have it all figured out?
> 
> ...



I ask questions because I love to discuss religion and the Bible.  I do learn things from hearing what others get out of the Bible.  When I say I don't take anything from man as fact, I mean I hear what they say and then do some research.  I learned a long time ago not to take anyting anybody says as fact.  This does not just apply to religion but everything in life.  This is another thing I like about debate.  Some times I get others to research instead of taking what somebody says as fact.

BTW, no need for PM's.  As evidenced from this thread, I have no problem throwing my beliefs out there religious or otherwise.  Few have the faith to do that!  I have always been a straight forward person.  I tells it likes I sees it.  I am not always right, but I think I am when I say it!  And the reason I think I am is because have done the research!


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## Randy (Sep 27, 2005)

PWalls said:
			
		

> Unless you are related to Darwin somehow and have several degrees and such related to evolution, then I think it is pretty safe to say that you are listening to man and taking their opinion as fact.
> 
> If you don't listen to other Christian men, then you may be cutting off a line of information/truth that God was opening for you to experience.



I never said that I was taking anything from evolutionist as fact.  In fact I have never said I believe in evolution.  I said I think it is possible.

I do listen to christian men.  But which one of them should I take as fact?  I don't take any of them as fact.  As David posted pro 3:5, I trust only in the Lord.  Not any man.  I'll listen to you and hear what you have to say.  but I'll do my own studying to determione if I think you are right or not.


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 27, 2005)

> I do listen to christian men. But which one of them should I take as fact?



Randy, I have been taught not to just take someone’s word for it, but to weigh what they say (or do) against Scripture.  My pastor even challenges people to do this on things he says.  But, in order to this, one must study God’s word.

I wish I could pinpoint it, but there is even Scripture saying that this is what we should do.


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## PWalls (Sep 27, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> I never said that I was taking anything from evolutionist as fact.  In fact I have never said I believe in evolution.  I said I think it is possible.
> 
> I do listen to christian men.  But which one of them should I take as fact?  I don't take any of them as fact.  As David posted pro 3:5, I trust only in the Lord.  Not any man.  I'll listen to you and hear what you have to say.  but I'll do my own studying to determione if I think you are right or not.



Didn't mean to put words in your mouth. If I did so, then I apologize.

For me, Philip Walls, if I think that evolution is possible, then that means I have to think that God's Word is fallible. If something that is different from what He says is possible, then what other things that He said is false? My faith and conviction will not allow me to believe that.

Also, I agree 100%. Please listen to other Christian men. But always weigh what is said by what God says in His Word. Christian men are still just men and can interpret Scripture incorrectly as well. All I meant was to not cut yourself off from an avenue of possible growth. Going to Church, Sunday School and listening to preachers of the Word is a good thing and can lead to even better things.


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## Randy (Sep 27, 2005)

PWalls said:
			
		

> Christian men are still just men and can interpret Scripture incorrectly as well.



Thanks for the quote, because this brings up another question.  It kind of goes back to the infalible Bible.  If these good christian men that interpret what the Bible says can be wrong, then could the good christian men that wrote the Bible write the scripture incorrectly?

BTW, I do not think the Bible is fallibe.  I personally believe that the fallible are the interpretations.  I think that we can not understand everything in the Bible because it was written for people at a certain time.  Unless you truely understand what they were going through and what things meant to them then you can not totally understand the Bible.


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## PWalls (Sep 27, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> If these good christian men that interpret what the Bible says can be wrong, then could the good christian men that wrote the Bible write the scripture incorrectly?



The original Bible was written under direct inspiration from God and as such is infallible and inerrant. Now, I have no idea where that Bible is located. We have just as many Bible interpretations as we do Denominations, I think. Some hold to a King James Version Only (KJVO) theory. Some don't. I am in the middle. I have a King James and a New King James. I tend to stay away from some of those other translations. Some of them get really weird IMHO. I believe that the King James is the closest translation to the original that is readily accessible to the masses. There may be some Greek text out there that I am unaware of.

So, by Faith, I read what is in that Bible and hold it as the infallible and inerrant Word of God.


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## PWalls (Sep 27, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> BTW, I do not think the Bible is infalibe.  I personally believe that the falible are the interpretations.  I think that we can not understand everything in the Bible because it was written for people at a certain time.  Unless you truely understand what they were going through and what things meant to them then you can not totally understand the Bible.



If you do not think the Bible is infallible, then that means you think it is fallible and contains error? Help me understand that this is or is not your personal belief.

Also, God is outside of time. His Word is outside of time. His truths in that Bible apply to man 2000 years ago just as much as they apply to man today. Same truths, but different man. Our perspectives and beliefs have changed/conformed to the world as it has aged. The truth that God wants us to understand has not. So, my belief is that the Word didn't change, we did. We got further from the Word and now have a harder time looking back to it and seeing it for the truth that it is.

I agree with your last sentence. It is called "context". If you do not read the Bible in the proper context, then you will miss the meaning, or worse, get the wrong one.


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## reylamb (Sep 27, 2005)

John Chapter 1: 1 - 2
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.

We glean from John 1 that the Word was God and the Word was with God.  We also know that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  The Word has not changed, the world is drifting further away.


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## Randy (Sep 27, 2005)

PWalls said:
			
		

> If you do not think the Bible is infallible, then that means you think it is fallible and contains error? Help me understand that this is or is not your personal belief.



I have to go correct that statement.  I meant to say I think the Bible is infallible.  The interpretations are fallible.  I had the last part right but messed the first part.


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## Randy (Sep 27, 2005)

reylamb said:
			
		

> The Word has not changed, the world is drifting further away.


You are right the Word has not changed.  Man has.  And as a result we can not understand some of the things in the Bible as they were intended.  Even the words of Jesus were spoken in terms that people of that day could understand.  Some of His parables don't mean the same to us today that they meant to those he was speaking to because we don't live and see things as they did.


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 27, 2005)

Randy,

Let me pro vide the following Scripture:


Titus 3:16-17
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


It first says that all Scripture is by God’s inspiration.  If I or anyone else can’t believe that, then I might as well not even go any further.  It says “all scripture”, not some, not a lot, not most; but all of it.

Then it goes on to say that it is to serve for every aspect of a Christian life; that we are to use it to guide us day by day, moment by moment.  If we follow it perfectly with the love of Christ in our hearts, then we would be as perfect as we could possibly be.

It there is something about God’s word that you don’t understand, for the moment, don’t worry about it.  If you are seeking God’s will in your life, He will reveal those meanings to you when He is ready to.  I’m not going to sit here and say that I know the Bible from cover to cover and that I fully understand everything I read in it.  I accept the fact that God will tell me what I am seeking when He knows I am ready for it.  I may not understand why God commanded Saul to kill every man, woman, and child, even the livestock; but I know that His ways are above my ways and in some way, it serves to glorify Him.  

I sometimes look at it like a parent/child relationship.  A parent tells a child to do something and expects the child to obey.  The child many times will not understand why and it’s mind is too simple to comprehend his/her parents will.  But, the child knows that his/her parent loves them and instinctively knows that the parent knows better than they do.


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 27, 2005)

> You are right the Word has not changed. Man has. And as a result we can not understand some of the things in the Bible as they were intended. Even the words of Jesus were spoken in terms that people of that day could understand. Some of His parables don't mean the same to us today that they meant to those he was speaking to because we don't live and see things as they did.



A good preacher can show you how all scripture applies today as it did back then.  Man really hasn't changed that much, we are as sinful today as folks were 2000 years ago.


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## Randy (Sep 27, 2005)

I have been misunderstood.

David,  I think you and I believe the same way but are saying it differently.  I have no dought that the Word applies today as it did yesterday.  The problem is sometimes we cannot understand it as it was intended because we do not understand the situation at the time which it was said.

You may be right, a good preacher may be able to explain the situation at the time so that we can understand the intent.  I do not kow what is taught in siminary school but feel sure they must study the people and the times to understand the issues.  That being said, unless you were actually there I do not see how you could be 100% sure of the intent.  Obviously it is not 100% because there are different schools of thought!


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 27, 2005)

> I do not kow what is taught in siminary school but feel sure they must study the people and the times to understand the issues



I agree, I have heard some explanations of scripture based on what was happening at a specific place at a specific time (during biblical times).

My point is that I often see where, in many cases, man has not changed one iota.  I believe God's word is alive, that it was written for all times because man's basic nature remains the same through all times.  We have the same spiritual struggles today as they did 2000 years ago.


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## Randy (Sep 27, 2005)

No dought it applies to our lives but I think some of the intentions may have been lost.

As an example, the Bible says a man shall be of one wife.  Now my Baptist religion upbringing says that means a man should only have one wife in his lifetime.  This is why some Baptist preachers will not re-marry a divorced person.  Some denominations and people believe this means only one wife at a time!  This is only one example of many.  I think we have to study why He said what H said when He said it.  I personally don't know the answer because I have not ask Him and have not studied it.  Mainly because it does not affect me.  I have had two wives.  Right or wrong the first one cheated on me and she did not love me or respect me so I divorced her.  I married my present wife because I feel she is a blessing from God.  So I don't think I have done anything wrong.  I may be wrong?

There are many other examples of what the Bible says are interpreted different by people.  Who's right?  We'll never know.


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## reylamb (Sep 29, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> No dought it applies to our lives but I think some of the intentions may have been lost.
> 
> As an example, the Bible says a man shall be of one wife.  Now my Baptist religion upbringing says that means a man should only have one wife in his lifetime.  This is why some Baptist preachers will not re-marry a divorced person.  Some denominations and people believe this means only one wife at a time!  This is only one example of many.  I think we have to study why He said what H said when He said it.  I personally don't know the answer because I have not ask Him and have not studied it.  Mainly because it does not affect me.  I have had two wives.  Right or wrong the first one cheated on me and she did not love me or respect me so I divorced her.  I married my present wife because I feel she is a blessing from God.  So I don't think I have done anything wrong.  I may be wrong?
> 
> There are many other examples of what the Bible says are interpreted different by people.  Who's right?  We'll never know.


When looking at the Truth in Scripture, one must look at the Scripture in it's entirety to form the basis of the decision being made.  While we are told that man is to be the husband of one wife, we are also given doctrinal reasons for divorce in the New Testament by Paul.  paul also goes on to show Biblically where one can remarry if the other partner commits some infedility.  One can not look specifically at any one Scripture and make that determination.  Paul also states that it may be better for a man to remain unmarried after divorce if that marriage would hurt his testimony.  Having said that, Biblically speaking, divorce and re-marriage does disqualify a person from being a deacon or pastor according to New Testament teaching.

The decision by many Baptist pastors to not perform marriages for those that have been previously divorced is as much political as it is anything.  If a pastor were to perform a marriage for one person where the infedelity was clearly on the other partner, how can they then tell someone else that they will not perform a marriage for another person where the circumstances surrounding the divorce is less clear?  To make it fair and equal across the board many pastors, especially Baptists, will not perform marriages when one of the parties has been divorced.

When someone makes a doctrinal decision based solely and specifically on one verse, without comparing that verse to the Scriptures in it's entirey, one should question their motives.


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