# My bow will not shoot a fixed blade!



## Flaustin1 (Aug 29, 2013)

I know yall get tired of these threads but continue reading please.  Ive searched youtube, AT and here till im blue in the face and nothing Ive found will fix my problem.

My groups are extremely tight.  Ive lost 3 arrows and multiple fletchings in the last 2 days trying to get my bow to shoot broadheads and fieldpoints the same.  

The problem is the broadheads group 3"s to the left of my field points at 20yds and 6"s left at 30yds.  Ive paper tuned it.  Walk back tuned it, and broadhead tuned it.  Not to mention trying 5 different broadheads.  Both 100gr and 125 gr.

The bow is an elite gt 500 60# with a 27.5" draw.  Im shooting 400 spine beman hunters.  Ive checked my centershot and cam timing the best I can by going to the elite website and comparing their data to my bow.  Nothing seems to be out of spec.

HELP ME!    PLEASE!


----------



## The Fever (Aug 29, 2013)

move your rest a fuzz to the right...

As much as it seems nothing Is out of spec, something HAS to be...

What grain field point are you shooting and what length is your arrow?


----------



## The Fever (Aug 29, 2013)

http://beman.com/wp-content/uploads/ShaftSelector_Beman.pdf

This was done with a 100 grain field point


----------



## Gadestroyer74 (Aug 29, 2013)

How fast is your bow shooting ? What type of vane are you using?  The faster the arrow flies the harder it is to stabilize and control


----------



## benellisbe (Aug 29, 2013)

He is shooting an Elite GT500, 60# 27.5" DL.  He has another thread where several guys have recommend some things to try and he is still having issues.


----------



## Pneumothorax (Aug 29, 2013)

Flaustin1 said:


> My groups are extremely tight.  Ive lost 3 arrows and multiple fletchings in the last 2 days trying to get my bow to shoot broadheads and fieldpoints the same.



Shooting each arrow at a different dot will save you money and time.  You'll still be able to tell if they're hitting high, low, left, or right.


----------



## Flaustin1 (Aug 29, 2013)

Bow shoots about 275fps.  Ive moved the rest over and over again while broadhead tuning.  The two groups move together.  Still 3"s apart they just move in the direction I move the rest.  I know shooting different dots will save arrows but when tuning I cant get past shooting groups.  I did stop shooting broadhead groups though.  Guys ive tried all the normal stuff.  I need something out of the box.  Maybe there is something off with the timing or something.  Im not real familiar with Binary systems so who knows.  If there is anything off, its so minute that I cant see it.


----------



## Kris87 (Aug 29, 2013)

I would have moved the rest to the left.  I tune for bareshaft flight, and you probably have a tail right situation out of the bow.  If you can get bareshafts flying straight, your broadheads will be straight.

If that doesn't work, all you're left with is shimming the cams.  That's the downside to a binary system, and the reason I'd never shoot one.  You don't have many tuning options.


----------



## Jake Allen (Aug 29, 2013)

I will hazard a guess that the broadhead may be a little longer, or a touch heavier that the field point, therefore, it is weakening the spine of the arrow shaft.
(I am assuming you shoot right handed).


----------



## Flaustin1 (Aug 29, 2013)

I thought about weight too.  All the heads ive tried are within 3 grs. of the practice point weight.


----------



## Flaustin1 (Aug 29, 2013)

Kris87 said:


> I would have moved the rest to the left.  I tune for bareshaft flight, and you probably have a tail right situation out of the bow.  If you can get bareshafts flying straight, your broadheads will be straight.
> 
> If that doesn't work, all you're left with is shimming the cams.  That's the downside to a binary system, and the reason I'd never shoot one.  You don't have many tuning options.



I got the thing shooting bullet holes with a bare shaft no problem.  I shot a broadhead and fieldpoint at 20yds after I paper tuned it and the broadhead hit 3"s low and 6"s left.  So I started broadhead tuning it and got them to hit 3"s left.  I cant get it any better than that.  How do you go about shimming a cam.  Don't sound like something I wanna mess with.


----------



## Flaustin1 (Aug 29, 2013)

*pics if it helps*

couple of views.  As it sits right now, its shooting field points into the X and broadheads 2.5-3"s left.


----------



## Kris87 (Aug 29, 2013)

Flaustin1 said:


> I got the thing shooting bullet holes with a bare shaft no problem.  .




Go shoot a bareshaft at 10 and 20 yards and take a picture of the shaft in the target.


----------



## cape buffalo (Aug 29, 2013)

Also on your cams there are three dots pull it back and have someone look and see where the cables cross the dots. The top and bottom cam should both cross the same dots if not then the bow is out of timing.


----------



## cape buffalo (Aug 29, 2013)

do you have any arrows with different fletching on them...


----------



## spydermon (Aug 29, 2013)

Move your rest to the left..just go try it..and come back and tell what happened


----------



## Flaustin1 (Aug 29, 2013)

moved the rest to the left and the groups moved left.  No closer together or no further apart, just left.


----------



## Flaustin1 (Aug 29, 2013)

Kris87 said:


> Go shoot a bareshaft at 10 and 20 yards and take a picture of the shaft in the target.



Ive moved the rest since I bareshaft tuned it so I know im gonna have some tail kick right now.  I will try it anyway though.  Give me a few.


----------



## Grey Man (Aug 29, 2013)

Stupid question time:

1. Have you taken the FP and Bheads off and switched the arrow they are on?
2. Have you taken it to a pro? A really good pro?  Because it sounds like its time


----------



## cape buffalo (Aug 29, 2013)

also make sure your qad has the tl1 arrow holder on it ..


----------



## Flaustin1 (Aug 29, 2013)

What is the tl1?  and yes I have swapped arrows.  No I havnt taken it to a pro.  None close by.


----------



## Flaustin1 (Aug 29, 2013)

*bareshaft at ten then twenty*

I knew it was gonna be off because ive moved it since bareshafting.  I shot these bareshafts with the bow set up the way it shoots the b heads the best.


----------



## Flaustin1 (Aug 29, 2013)

ten yds on top twenty on bottom


----------



## Kris87 (Aug 29, 2013)

Flaustin1 said:


> Ive moved the rest since I bareshaft tuned it so I know im gonna have some tail kick right now.  I will try it anyway though.  Give me a few.



You gotta move one thing at a time.  If you can get a bareshaft to fly straight at 10 and 20 yards, and broadheads still fly left, then I'd be surprised.  Then I'd think its fletching clearance related.


----------



## cape buffalo (Aug 29, 2013)

tl1 is for double cam bows there should have been two arrow holder in pkg with the qad rest


----------



## Kris87 (Aug 29, 2013)

There's your problem.  That much tail right flight is gonna veer any head off to the left.  I wouldn't shoot another fletched arrow until I got that bareshaft hitting straight.  Move the rest both ways, in small increments to see where it shoot straight.  You really have to focus on not torqueing the grip either.  That's obviously very critical with a bareshaft.  Start by moving the rest to the left, keep going, and see if it cleans up the flight.


----------



## Flaustin1 (Aug 29, 2013)

Im headed out now to bareshaft it again then shoot at 10 and 20 and see what it does.  Thanks.


----------



## blt152 (Aug 29, 2013)

Check your PM's


----------



## jigman29 (Aug 29, 2013)

I have saw a video on youtube about tuning a binary cam bow and instead of moving the rest they say to twist the cably yoke on the side its tearing on on both cams.This may not help but it may be worth a try.


----------



## finnhunter (Aug 29, 2013)

From QAD tech support:  Q: Which direction should my cock (or odd) vane be facing? 

A: We do all of our testing with the cock vane pointing up and it is the direction we recommend.  However, if your Ultra-Rest is set up properly, you can shoot with the cock vane facing any direction.     

http://www.qadinc.com/2011-TechSupport.html

Don't think that's your problem, just thought I bring this up just in case.  Good luck!


----------



## kbuck1 (Aug 29, 2013)

Are you sure you are not getting fletching contact? If you are tired of fooling with it  Put a 4 inch vane on there with the most helical you can get. Theyll group well then I bet.


----------



## Kris87 (Aug 29, 2013)

jigman29 said:


> I have saw a video on youtube about tuning a binary cam bow and instead of moving the rest they say to twist the cably yoke on the side its tearing on on both cams.This may not help but it may be worth a try.



That's not his bow. Its referring to a Bowtech.  Elites Don't have yokes.


----------



## B Man (Aug 29, 2013)

General Tuning rule for two track binary tuning: set your ATA with the cables (they should both be exactly the same length), and back off the string by five or six twists to keep it's tension from cont ributing to camtiming/synch/lean. That's how I start with any two track binary, and it's served me well as a starting point.

You will see guys shimming the cams to move them closer to the high limb, but that should only be done after checking cables and setting it up right in the first place (loosen string, set ATA with cables, synch cams to roll over at the same time by adding twists to one cable and removing from the other the same amount, set draw stops, etc.).

In most cases, the cams are over-rotating slightly at full draw, which is caused by too tight of a string...ending up with the cams leaning in the direction of the cable-side.


The advice above is from someone much more knowledgeable about it than myself. What little tear you have left moving the rest will take out.  But honestly if you had the bow shooting bare shaft to same poi as fletched arrows and grouping tight then you should have been good.

Have you tried a weaker spine arrow?


----------



## Kris87 (Aug 29, 2013)

His bow doesn't have yokes.  Man.....


----------



## dustin01018 (Aug 29, 2013)

Cam lean.  I had this same problem with my hoyt CRX 32, trying to tune slick tricks, field points would group bheads would group just not together. little cam lean put in it and was dangerous to shoot at the same dot.  Find a good bow guy and I mean GOOD, should be a walk in the park.  Had to lean mine towards , so looking at the bow from the back for a right handed shooter, top cam should be leaning top to the left, bottom cam should be leaning bottom to the left.  I torque my bow a little and this might be the cause of my problem but my bow guy knows this and gets on me about it all the time but knows how to make it shoot strait for me.  John Conley The Bow Shop Hazlehurst GA, his contact info is in the recommended archery shop thread


----------



## Kris87 (Aug 29, 2013)

You Don't need a weaker spine either.....


----------



## dustin01018 (Aug 29, 2013)

Kris87 said:


> His bow doesn't have yokes.  Man.....



Just saw this so my idea might not work either.


----------



## Kris87 (Aug 29, 2013)

Whatever you do, ignore most of the advice in this thread....If guys Don't even know what cam system is on your bow, Don't bother reading. Move on.


----------



## Flaustin1 (Aug 29, 2013)

I appreciate all the help and im sorry to have wasted your time, but im just gonna have to take it to a tech.  I couldn't even get it to paper tune this time.  Regardless of what I did, I still got tail kick to the right.  Something has to be out of whack with the cams.  Ive tuned a dozen or so bows and have never ran into this kind of problem, then again, they were all PSEs and single cam.


----------



## Gadestroyer74 (Aug 29, 2013)

I had a gt500 shot great but boy was it touchy I ended up selling it..


----------



## t8ter (Aug 29, 2013)

Take your kisser button off before you go any futher.Ive seen folks have problems due to buring the k button in there face.Causing a consistent kick in arrow flight.


----------



## Pointpuller (Aug 29, 2013)

You have either got a cam issue or a clearance(rest) issue.  When you get that figured out put 4" helical FEATHERS on a properly spined shaft and you can group fixed heads out to 60+ yards.  The helical feathers are the key to getting fixed blade broadheads to fly out of faster bows.  This has been my experience.


----------



## B Man (Aug 29, 2013)

Kris is right don't take most the advice, I'm one....  I was reading and thinking of your bow when I posted earlier.  I edited that post with some creditable advice. You can twist the cables ( not adjust yoke ) to take some can lean out of your bow.

And yes he could still have a slightly stiff spine.  The binary cam on the Strother bows needed a weaker spine then what any chart would recommend for the set up.  I learned my lesson when tuning mine.   But your gt500 although binary is a different design.  Just a suggestion.  Really missed the simplicity of my Hoyt's when I started shooting a binary but do like them when set up properly.

If you have the time I know its a drive but go to John Conley like recommended above.  Bring your broadheads with you.  He will tune the entire bow, then paper, walk back, then BH & field points.  He's worth the drive even though he ain't much to look at.


----------



## Grey Man (Aug 30, 2013)

I think you are wise to make a long drive and get it done right. I HIGHLY recommend Dale at Foxhole in Gainesville. Call ahead, find out when he will be there, heck tell him you cant leave it there and make an appointment. He will fix it, and you will probably end up saving yourself some time in the end.


----------



## Gamikatsu (Aug 30, 2013)

Johnny at chucks gun and pawn in Warner Robins.  Sets up binary cam bows (Obsession) perfectly.

good luck.


----------



## j53 (Aug 30, 2013)

if is not horizontal nock travel like I said, than it can be fixed... If it is id shoot reapers and look back and wonder why I even cared what a fixed head did as long as my bow grouped well


----------



## puhlw (Sep 22, 2013)

Im new here but I have been on a quest for the last two years to get my fixed blade heads hitting with my field points.  Im and engineer so Iv tried to think this all out logically.  When I first started this lots of people said just broadhead tune or walkback tune.  Never had any luck with this, move the rest right field points go right and so do broadheads the same amount.  

Its not till i really learned about paper tuning that things came together.  You really need to know that the arrow is leaving the bow straight or your never going to get broadheads to shoot well.  This means clean through paper at 5ft and at 20ft not one or the other but both.  You can broadhead tune or walkback tune till your blue in the face but if that arrows not coming out straight your going to have trouble.  Another thing I learned shooting through paper is how critical arrow spine is too weak spine your going to get tears one way stiff spine tears the other way.  Theres a small sweet spot and its not always easy to find.  

Then theres center shot.  My engineering brain tells me inline with string should make the arrow come out straight right?  Not necessarly, theres a lot of physics going on that we can't see without a high speed camera.  My current bow has center shot a good 1/4" left of center looks terrible like the arrow should be coming out almost sideways, but this thing punchs holes through paper, and broadheads hit dead on with fieldpoints.

Lastly, and Im sure I will get some arguements with this but bare with me.  So you papertune your bow (ideally we would do this with broadheads but we dont).  So now we know the arrows coming out straight and staying straight since its done a multiple yardages.  Most likely your broadheads will hit close to the field points.  If not then I say move the sight, they are not physically the same head so they probably will never hit exactly the same.  If you try to adjust  your rest after paper tuning to get them hitting in the same place you are essentially "detuning" your bow.  I read an article where I professional archer had two sights he swapped out one for target and one for hunting. 

Thats my rant , feel free to tear it apart but I have literally spent  a 100 hours on this over the last two years and this is the only thing that has worked for me.  Or shoot expandables cause they will usually hit the same with any crappy setup.


----------



## puhlw (Sep 22, 2013)

FYI my current bow is a binary cam bowtech allegiance with terrible cam lean.


----------



## Flaustin1 (Sep 22, 2013)

Id like to be able to paper tune it but it wont do it.  No matter how I move the rest or nocking point.  Ive even changed peeps and took the kisser button off then back on. Nothing will fix the right tail kick im getting.  I think its a little bit of cam lean.


----------



## puhlw (Sep 22, 2013)

First id set my center shot as close to the middle as you can and shoot a bare shaft through paper, if it still tears the same as a fletched shaft then this should eliminate fletching contact.
I find most right left tear issues are arrow spine incorrect, not rest adjustment.  Right tear typically means your spine is to stiff, so you should either:
1.  Increase draw weight or draw length this will reduce the spine
2.  Increase point weight though not many options here.
3.  Increase arrow length, again hard to do.
4.  Get weaker spined arrows

My last bow would tear right terrible with 350 spine even though thats what it should be shooting per the charts at 70 pounds.  Bought 400 spine and got a left tear at 70 lbs this time, started backing out the limb bolts a little at a time and watched the tear get better every shot, till I hit the sweet spot at about 64lbs.   If you have room to crank down your limbs a few more turns do this and see if the tear gets better if so then you have some spine issue.  IF your maxed out then Id go and try to buy a single 400 spine arrow somewhere and see what happens.

let me know what you find out.


----------



## puhlw (Sep 22, 2013)

I paper tune with bare shafts then when things look good switch to fletched assuming no contact issues you should still be good.  I also only use ONE arrow oriented the same direction everytime.  Carbon arrows do not have great spine consistency especially cheap ones so even if you get one shaft to tune another may not.  Even rotating the same shaft a 1/3 of a turn can change your tear quite a bit on a  of carbon shafts.  This is the big advantage to aluminum and aluminum/carbon arrows, they have better spine consistency around the circumfrence of the shaft.


----------



## puhlw (Sep 22, 2013)

Also be very careful not to torque your wrist, as this will throw off your testing, but this smells like incorrect arrow spine to me.


----------



## Flaustin1 (Sep 22, 2013)

Im already shooting a 400 spine.  I have a short draw and the bow is a 60lb bow so I could still be on the stiff side.  I tried to shoot some Muzzy MX3s out of it today and they hit a foot left consistently.  I may try to find a weaker spine and try it just for the heck of it.  Its about the only thing I havnt tried.


----------



## puhlw (Sep 22, 2013)

I would start by papertuning with a bare shaft use one shaft and keep in in the same orientation each shot.  Carbon arrows have a lot of spine variation especially the cheap ones shooting multiple arrows will just make things harder by introducing more variables.  Once you get one arrow shooting good we can try to make the others shoot good.


----------



## puhlw (Sep 22, 2013)

sorry that last post was a repeat, my computers not updating properly


----------



## puhlw (Sep 22, 2013)

You might have a tough time finding a shaft weaker than 400 but you could get a 400 say 2" longers this will be quite a bit weaker.  For your setup  if your maxed at 60lb and want to stay there Id get a 400 spine arrow about 2-3 inches longer and shoot through paper, youll probably get a left tear now, then start cutting off an 1/2" at a time till the tear goes away or close.  Use a bare shaft and cut off the nock end a little at a time.  Its not ideal but if your carefull and go VERY slow you can cut carbon arrows with a tubing cutter.  I wouldnt advise this for more than a test arrow though.

This is how I setup my last bow.  Borrowed an arrow saw and kept nibbling away at the length till the spine was just right.  But to do this you need to be underspine to start with.  As you cant add arrow length.


----------



## p&y finally (Sep 22, 2013)

PM sent


----------

