# Pro's &Con's of 12 ga vs 20 ga for Turkey hunting



## Ricky (Aug 5, 2007)

Let's here'em guys.I know the basics.ie,less range with the 20,but lighter and less kick.Probably easier to swing the 20.


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## discounthunter (Aug 6, 2007)

less range is not a factor unless your compareing 12g 3.5 mags to a 20g. its all in the pellet count(ie less pellets down range) ,lighter? there again if u compare wood vs synthetic. less kick? my 20g 3"mag kicks harder than my 12g 2 3/4. imo


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## Ricky (Aug 6, 2007)

I guess I don't know the basics.


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## Ricky (Aug 6, 2007)

I'd like to get a camo'd gun for under $350


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## Huntinfool (Aug 6, 2007)

I don't have one, but I know you can get a Mossberg 835 or 535 for around $350 or less.  Not sure if they make 'em in 20 gauge or not.  But I've seen the 12 gauge version for around that much.


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## Twenty five ought six (Aug 6, 2007)

> ,but lighter and less kick.



Those are basically contradictory terms.  Additional weight in a shotgun is the easiest to moderate recoil.  A heavier 12 gauge with say 2 3/4" shells may well recoil less than a lighter 20 ga. shooting 3" shells.


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## MKW (Aug 12, 2007)

*Well...*

I have been hunting turkeys exclusively with a 20ga for 3 seasons now and I don't think that I will ever go back to a 12ga. Not because there is any advantage to a 20ga, but because I see no  advantage that a 12ga offers. As far as the recoil, with a 3" turkey load, my 20s kick about like a 12ga with a field load. Over the last 3 seasons, I've killed 17 gobblers with my 20ga guns at ranges of <10yrds all the way out to 52yrds(range finder). What more could you want??
Mike


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## potsticker (Aug 12, 2007)

If you have killed that many gobblers you are way over your limit! Did you think you were deer hunting!


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## MKW (Aug 12, 2007)

*HaHa*

Yeah, you are correct. This past season alone, I drove 7800+(FLA, TX, OK, KS, and NEB) miles chasing turkeys not counting Easterns. Every season, I hunt GA and FLA, so that gives me 5 per season.
Mike


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## CAL (Aug 12, 2007)

Been hunting with a 20 ga.now for more seasons than I can count.I especially like it because it is the lightest shotgun I have found to hunt with.Definitely an advantage there as much walking and carrying involved.I use a Remington youth model 20 ga.with the short barrel and 3" # 4 shot.The hunt to me is all about calling that ole bird in close.Killing him is my least concern but the 20 gets it done just fine out to 45 yards many times.


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## Nitro (Aug 12, 2007)

potsticker said:


> If you have killed that many gobblers you are way over your limit! Did you think you were deer hunting!



Good Lord............. Another intelligent post. 

Ever heard of traveling to hunt????

MKW, Nice job!!!!!!!! What is your plan for '08???


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## blindhog (Aug 12, 2007)

As far as the "kick" I cannot recall feeling any when I shot my 3.5" 12 ga this season 3 times hunting.  Adrenaline.

Although I am going to put a youth 20 ga 870 to work this coming year for those long walks on public land, plus the novelty.


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## Jack Flynn (Aug 12, 2007)

I'll never shoot anything but a 20 at turkeys. Lighter guns, in automatic no kick whatsoever just a push. It will kill them at 50 yds if you want too. 3" #4 and 5's are great turkey fodder.... Shortstop wishes he had never sold it and I'm glad he did!


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## Gadget (Aug 13, 2007)

A 12 ga can give you more room for error, and that could be the difference between a wounded bird and a dead bird. Throwing more pellets down range can give you a larger kill zone in your pattern, depending on the pattern your gun is shooting, but with some people it doesn't matter, their gonna wound birds no matter what their shooting, mostly because of lack of preparation. Of course 99% of the time people will say they "miss" a bird when in reality most of time the bird is wounded. 
The 20 can push out pellets at the same velocity as a 12 or 10ga, but it takes a smaller load to do it; therefore it will have the same killing range but maybe not the same killing area. For example; at 40 yds the 20 may have a 2 foot killing radius where the 12 would have a 3 ft.......depending on the choke, load, and pattern.


The biggest advantage to a 20 is it's lighter and easier to carry. The kick really doesn't matter, you only normally shoot at a turkey once and you will never feel the difference between a 12 and 20 in a hunting situation; most people never even feel the kick at all. If you were duck hunting that would be a different story. The kick on a 20 ga Benelli M2 I helped pattern only felt slightly less to me, the difference can be felt on the pattern range but not in the turkey woods.


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## teethdoc (Aug 13, 2007)

Is this going to be your all-around shotgun, or limited to Turkey hunting?  If it's your all around gun, I would get the 12ga.  If it's limited to turkeys and you just want something different go with an older used 1187 or something and have a good gunsmith set it up for turkey hunting.  Pattern it to find the best load, and lay some turkeys down.

http://www.guncustomizing.com   Gun Docc is a member here and supposedly does fabulous work.


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## MKW (Aug 13, 2007)

*...*

I know it's not for everyone, but I use a 20ga for everything that I hunt with a shotgun. Ducks, doves, quail, pheasants, turkeys, and even killed a couple of geese with a 20ga one time. I love my 20s!
Mike


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## jcarter (Aug 13, 2007)

what i find kinda funny is guys saying they carry the 20 cause its lighter. but then they wear a 5lb. vest with 10lbs.  of stuff in it. the weight difference between a 20 and 12 is not gonna be over 2 lbs. the chance of woundinig and not recovering a bird with a 20 is much greater than with a 12 especially with an inexperienced hunter.


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## MKW (Aug 13, 2007)

*???*

--------------------------------------------------------------
the chance of woundinig and not recovering a bird with a 20 is much greater than with a 12
--------------------------------------------------------------

Will you please explain why you feel like this? 
Mike


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## Gadget (Aug 13, 2007)

MKW said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------
> the chance of woundinig and not recovering a bird with a 20 is much greater than with a 12
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...




Although I wouldn't say "much greater", I think he's right if your comparing apples to apples.......ie two guns patterning the same density. As you shoot lighter loads the kill radius shrinks.... assuming all other variables remain the same. As you go down in pellet count your "potential" kill area gets smaller ....... simple physics. Can a 1/4 oz load have the same killing area as a 2 oz ? of course not.

Can a properly equipped and patterned 20ga have a better pattern than a 12ga ? Sure, in fact yours probably does better than a lot of 12's out there, but generally speaking a 12 ga is going to give more margin of error by having a larger kill area.


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## MKW (Aug 14, 2007)

*OK*

I see what you are saying. It is tougher to get good killing pattern density from a 20ga, but it can be done. I guess it depends on how you look at pattern density. Mine are judged by 10" circles. Anything outside that, I'm not concerned with. And if 2 guns(a 12ga and a 20ga) have the same number of hits in this 10" circle consistantly, then one is no better than the other, IMO.
And , yes, my 20ga guns shoot better patterns than most 12ga guns because most hunters buy a turkey choke and some shells and go hunting. That's the reason that I like the turkey hunting boards cause I can find people as fanatical as I am about this stuff.
Bottom line, to me, is that if you can get enough pellets on target, it doesn't matter whether they came from a 10ga or a .410. 
Mike


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## Gadget (Aug 14, 2007)

MKW said:


> I see what you are saying. It is tougher to get good killing pattern density from a 20ga, but it can be done. I guess it depends on how you look at pattern density. Mine are judged by 10" circles. Anything outside that, I'm not concerned with. And if 2 guns(a 12ga and a 20ga) have the same number of hits in this 10" circle consistantly, then one is no better than the other, IMO.
> And , yes, my 20ga guns shoot better patterns than most 12ga guns because most hunters buy a turkey choke and some shells and go hunting. That's the reason that I like the turkey hunting boards cause I can find people as fanatical as I am about this stuff.
> Bottom line, to me, is that if you can get enough pellets on target, it doesn't matter whether they came from a 10ga or a .410.
> Mike




I agree, 100 pellets in a 10 inch circle is 100 pellets in a 10 inch circle no matter if a .410 or 10ga shot it, but how often do those pellets outside that 10inch circle come into play?? It's hard to know for sure but judging by all the "missed" turkeys I see and hear about I would say often. At my club this past spring we killed 7 and "missed" 7..... That's really unexceptable and could be avoided in most cases if people were prepared properly.

 You have a very well prepared 20ga and because of the time and effort you've put forth it shoots exceptionally well. Most guys do just like you say, buy a turkey choke and turkey load; load it in and go hunting. They don't take the time to prepare themselves and their equipment and because of that there are a lot of Turkeys that fly off wounded, Not missed.


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## MKW (Aug 14, 2007)

*...*

Yep, preparation is the key success...in ANY venture. Over the years, I have killed a lot of those "missed" turkeys. I have found a lot of old pellets in quite a few turkeys. It is hard to imagine that anyone could shoot at a turkey and miss it with ALL the pellets(unless he's really close).
I think that we agree on this subject. If you take the time to make your gun (and yourself) an efficient killer, it doesn't matter the gauge. And if you don't, it helps to have the biggest payload possible.
Mike


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## discounthunter (Aug 15, 2007)

i would think just the oposite.that more birds are wounded with a 12g.why? because peoples mentality would think 12g bigger,more powerful more pellets: ie more chanced shots,more out of range shots. my guess id those old pellets  in your birds were due to these factors have have nothing to due with 20g vs 12g. just out of curiosity whats your take on bow hunting turkeys its just ONE 30 cal arrow being slung at a bird, what are the chances of miss?bad shot now?


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## potsticker (Aug 15, 2007)

while iv taken birds with just about everything, it depends on the situation, with a 20 i may pass a shot that i dont think i can pull off. Hey you guys what about a 16ga. I have a h&r in 16ga single shot in full choke that ive taken a truck load of birds with. Its light, has a auto ejector and i used duck and phasant load #6s. Just use your woodmanship and keep your shots at under 40 yds. I wons e took two of the best gobblers off cedar creek, acording to biddleback with this weapon. Two shots two birds, worked them for 3hrs and moved on them 5 times!


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## MKW (Aug 15, 2007)

*???*



NWS said:


> 12 is superior in every way over a 20.  Take a poll of all the turkey pros and find out who hunts with a 20.  I am sure most would use a 10 if they could carry it comfortably.



Who are these so called "turkey pros" that we should poll??? I probably know at least 5 guys that will out-hunt the crap out of most anybody that is "famous" and I promise you that it doesn't matter what shotgun that they use cause they get the birds where they need to be for killing. I totally disagree with what you said cause unless the turkey killing is for the benefit  of a video camera, most seasoned turkey hunters don't hunt for the kill...they turkey hunt for the thrill. Just my opinion.
Mike


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## Gadget (Aug 16, 2007)

discounthunter said:


> i would think just the oposite.that more birds are wounded with a 12g.why? because peoples mentality would think 12g bigger,more powerful more pellets: ie more chanced shots,more out of range shots. my guess id those old pellets  in your birds were due to these factors have have nothing to due with 20g vs 12g. just out of curiosity whats your take on bow hunting turkeys its just ONE 30 cal arrow being slung at a bird, what are the chances of miss?bad shot now?




No doubt a lot of turkeys are wounded by people taking shots they shouldn't. Most of these types of people will be shooting 12 or 10's. The guy who hunts with a 20 will tend to be a more seasoned and dedicated turkey hunter who has patterned, and sighted in his gun properly.

The chances of wounding one with a bow are much greater, I know someone who wounded and lost three with his bow last year. That's the main reason I don't turkey hunt with a bow more often, just can't stand losing and wounding animals. When it happens to me I mark it off as a kill for my tag or quota.

Also, I believe I have never missed a turkey in my hunting career, ALL of the turkey I've lost I believe were wounded, which by the way if I remember right is 3. All of those were using Iron sights, since going to a red dot I've shot over 20 birds with no problems. I practice and pattern my gun every year, the red dot has definitely improved my accuracy.


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## Ricky (Aug 17, 2007)

Thanks guys,I'm leaning towards a 20.


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## Jack Flynn (Aug 17, 2007)

Well as I've said before it wasn't too long ago that you did not have the big heavy magnum loads that are available today. You went and bought a box of 25 3" magnums in 12,16, or 20 and you turkey hunted with it. If you couldn't afford the 3" ones you bought the 2 3/4" magnums. That was all that was available. I'll promise not a single turkey knew the difference. You shot your gun to make sure it shot where you pointed it, not to try and decapitate the gobbler. I'd really venture to say that since turkey hunting began with shotguns that way more have been taken with regular 2 3/4" field or magnum loads. 3" guns were not available or were very hard to get.  Twenty five years ago you didn't have a lot of choices and the TV and video hype just to sell something that is supposed to be better was not there. All the hype and miconceptions and bruised shoulders to make something deader? That's the way they sell ammo and guns though.


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## Georgia Hard Hunter (Aug 17, 2007)

Jack Flynn said:


> Well as I've said before it wasn't too long ago that you did not have the big heavy magnum loads that are available today. You went and bought a box of 25 3" magnums in 12,16, or 20 and you turkey hunted with it. If you couldn't afford the 3" ones you bought the 2 3/4" magnums. That was all that was available. I'll promise not a single turkey knew the difference. You shot your gun to make sure it shot where you pointed it, not to try and decapitate the gobbler. I'd really venture to say that since turkey hunting began with shotguns that way more have been taken with regular 2 3/4" field or magnum loads. 3" guns were not available or were very hard to get.  Twenty five years ago you didn't have a lot of choices and the TV and video hype just to sell something that is supposed to be better was not there. All the hype and miconceptions and bruised shoulders to make something deader? That's the way they sell ammo and guns though.



Good point Jack


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## MKW (Aug 17, 2007)

*???*

I'm sorry, but the analogy that you are trying to make between large vs small rifle calibers and 12 vs 20ga is just plain silly.
With 12 and 20ga shotshells, we are talking about the same size pellets traveling at the same speed therefore they have the same energy. It is simply a matter of how many of those pellets you can get on target.
With rifle calibers, you are talking about different bullet weights and different velocities, therefore different energy.
As I said...silly, just plain silly.
Mike


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## Jack Flynn (Aug 17, 2007)

It doesn't take a physics genius to figure that out when it comes to ballistics. 

Well I challenge you to get out a chronograph and see which shotshell has more velocity. The 20 will almost always have more, up to a 100 fps. Now it just shoots less shot. It will kill one as far as any 12 gauge ever will. We know you are not a physics genius after the last post.


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## Nitro (Aug 17, 2007)

I'm using a Daisy Red Ryder in '08......


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## Philbow (Aug 17, 2007)

Unless the shotshell ballistic charts are completely wrong the 12 almost always has more velocity with a heavier load than the 20. 
As an example Remington http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshell/wingmaster_HD.asp

I simply do accept that 1 1/4 ounce of shot can equal 1 7/8ounces on a regular basis. I'll stick with my Moss 835 and 3 1/2 inch turkey killers.  Physics are on the 12's side.


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## Gadget (Aug 19, 2007)

agarr said:


> I'm using a Daisy Red Ryder in '08......




 magnum ?


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## Gadget (Aug 19, 2007)

Philbow said:


> Unless the shotshell ballistic charts are completely wrong the 12 almost always has more velocity with a heavier load than the 20.
> As an example Remington http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshell/wingmaster_HD.asp
> 
> I simply do accept that 1 1/4 ounce of shot can equal 1 7/8ounces on a regular basis. I'll stick with my Moss 835 and 3 1/2 inch turkey killers.  Physics are on the 12's side.




yeah but most of the time they have the same velocity, they give you a choice to shoot a light load to get the higher velocity. Notice on their chart that the 10ga, 3.5 12, and 20 are all 1300 fps on most loads.

No matter what gun or what oz load your shooting if a #4 pellet shot at 1300 fps has 2.5 ft/lbs of energy at 40 yds it will be the same whether it's throwing 1 pellet or 200. Although as your pellet count goes down at some point you may start to lose effective killing distance by not having the pattern density to make a reliable kill.


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## hawglips (Aug 20, 2007)

MKW said:


> I know it's not for everyone, but I use a 20ga for everything that I hunt with a shotgun. Ducks, doves, quail, pheasants, turkeys, and even killed a couple of geese with a 20ga one time. I love my 20s!
> Mike



I grew up shooting ducks and geese with a 20 ga Browning auto-5 with 2 3/4" shells.  I hunted everything with it.  And Mike, I used to kill geese just as effectively as anyone I hunted with who was shooting 12 gauge loads.  A buddy of mine used to reload a sweet load of #4s I used.  But that was back in the lead days.

The 20 will do just fine for anything.  But I started shooting a 12 for doves back about 10 years ago and noticed a difference immediately.   The 12 is more deadly for the simple reason of the extra pellets.   Shooting doves, I noticed a lot fewer birds that had to be dispatched manually after retrieval, because they were already dead.  And a serious skeet shooter (who shoots all 4 gauges competitively) will tell you there is a real difference between the gauges.  The pellet counts make the difference.

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## NWS (Aug 21, 2007)

Click on this link to learn why a 12 gauge will have more velocity and more knockdown power than a 20 gauge:

www.ballisticproducts.com/bpi/articleindex/articles/312inch1/GA1235K1.html



Here is a quote from that link:

Ballistic Comparisons by Gauge
Because of design differences between the 12 gauge and the 10 gauge (bore diameter, surface area, choking area, etc.)  a 10 gauge has better potential to kill a goose. Here's why: 

Bore diameter is the difference between the gauges and why specific gauges are more compatible with different payloads. 

Understanding Bore Diameter
In any given amount of shot, the bore size will determine the maximum speed the shot can be driven. The smaller the bore size, the less speed a given amount of shot can be driven, at a given chamber pressure ceiling. Furthermore, in passing through a smaller diameter tube, a greater percentage of the pellets remain in contact with the bore throughout the transition.

Conversely, in a larger bore, more shot may be placed in a load and driven with higher speed. Larger pellets may also be used without incurring pattern density or consistency reductions. The reason for this phenomenon is that a greater number of pellets and/or pellets of a larger size can work their way through the constricted area of a choke at the same time.

Once an adequate amount of shot is in a load to take the intended game, it is in the handloader’s best interest to drive up the speed, increasing the lethal quality of the load throughout its effective range.

Tuned for the hull and the shotgun the 3-1/2"12 gauge can be an advantage to the hunter and reloader. The 12 gauge 3.5" hull can improve your shooting provided the space is used for components that increase lethality of the load - all of the separate elements accounted for: speed, consistency,   sufficient pattern.   As you prioritize, speed is a dominant factor of lethality.   Most frequently, fewer, more lethal pellets make the killing load.

The 20-gauge 2 3/4" is a very nice upland bore and often the shotgun is designed for quick and comfortable work. However, the 20 gauge 3" hull does not make the 20 gauge a goose gun.  You can make the ammunition, but it has to be compatible with the gun. 

An overloaded shotgun is at a point where the best potential of the shotgun has been surpassed and the results now get worse (diminishing returns).   Furthermore, due to physical constraints of shell length versus bore diameter, pattern development potential inside the barrel erodes.  They no longer are consistent.  Generally, part of the consequences is also reduced load lethality.

The 20 gauge can be stretched toward the 12 gauge performance envelope by use of the 3" hull, but the performance level does equal that potential of the 12 gauge, especially as other factors, such as pellet size, relative to bore diameter, are considered. 

As it attempt to poach on the magnum territory owned by the 10-gauge, the 3 1/2" 12 gauge can be loaded to diminishing returns.   The 12 gauge 3-1/2" will come up short, just as the 20 is to the  12.   The trick with the 12 gauge 3.5" is to find its domain, and utilize all of its advantages.


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## saltysenior (Aug 21, 2007)

how does my 16 ga. rate ????


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