# Free Will question



## bullethead (Jan 25, 2014)

How could we possibly have been created with Free Will if God did not want, actually forbid, Adam to eat fruit from the Tree of Knowledge?

Were we Pre-Programmed to do exactly as God wanted up until that point? Did he not want us knowledgeable?

How in the blazes were humans to learn without knowledge?


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## Denton (Jan 26, 2014)

Not sure how to answer any of that without knowing God's mind...although its a great post hoc description of Why people do bad things while also absolving God of any guilt for any bad thing that people do.  See, Adam and Eve (especially Eve) are guilty of First Sin so now sin is in the world and God didn't want it to happen so he is forever and ever innocent and only loves us.  Thanks Eve.  

Apparently Adam was the pushover that God wanted, but he screwed up when Eve could also command Adam.


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## Denton (Jan 26, 2014)

Original Sin, that's the term I was looking for.  not silly First Sin.


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## bullethead (Jan 26, 2014)

“Then the LORD God said, “See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” – therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.  He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life.” (Genesis 3:22-24).

 Was God worried that man might live forever if they found the Tree of Life so he kicked them out of the Garden? It doesn't sound like they got the boot for disobeying God as much as God was worried they would live forever. Doesn't that sound like jealousy? And who is God talking to?
If we find the Garden of Eden and find the Tree of Life we don't need Jesus in order to live forever, just a bite of the fruit.


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## drippin' rock (Jan 26, 2014)

Denton said:


> Not sure how to answer any of that without knowing God's mind...although its a great post hoc description of Why people do bad things while also absolving God of any guilt for any bad thing that people do.  See, Adam and Eve (especially Eve) are guilty of First Sin so now sin is in the world and God didn't want it to happen so he is forever and ever innocent and only loves us.  Thanks Eve.
> 
> Apparently Adam was the pushover that God wanted, but he screwed up when Eve could also command Adam.



Apparently, Eve had something Adam wanted. 

Women...


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## Denton (Jan 26, 2014)

Wow, God sounds a lot like Q from star trek, all powerful, flawed, and super bored.  "Aw crap guys, man is just like us now EXCEPT for his puny short lifespan.  We can't let that happen now can we?"


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 27, 2014)

bullethead said:


> How could we possibly have been created with Free Will if God did not want, actually forbid, Adam to eat fruit from the Tree of Knowledge?
> 
> Were we Pre-Programmed to do exactly as God wanted up until that point? Did he not want us knowledgeable?
> 
> How in the blazes were humans to learn without knowledge?



Nice straw man you got there.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 27, 2014)

bullethead said:


> “Then the LORD God said, “See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” – therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.  He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life.” (Genesis 3:22-24).
> 
> Was God worried that man might live forever if they found the Tree of Life so he kicked them out of the Garden? It doesn't sound like they got the boot for disobeying God as much as God was worried they would live forever. Doesn't that sound like jealousy? And who is God talking to?
> If we find the Garden of Eden and find the Tree of Life we don't need Jesus in order to live forever, just a bite of the fruit.



Way to tear him down.  Well played!  Well played!  Bravo!  Bravo!


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## bullethead (Jan 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Way to tear him down.  Well played!  Well played!  Bravo!  Bravo!



Must be something to it if it worked


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## bullethead (Jan 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Nice straw man you got there.



yes...YES!!! I see the similarities too!


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## hummdaddy (Jan 27, 2014)

is the fruit  a bud!!!  some people want to keep the bud away....


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## 660griz (Jan 27, 2014)

You(religious folks) cannot have free will with a threat of torture. Unless you consider ultimatums free will.


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## warmouth (Feb 1, 2014)

I dont believe in the freedom of the will. I believe in the bondage of the will. God has everything planned according to His ultimate will according to the Bible. What I'm trying to say is, if God is truely sovereign and knows all things, then nothing takes Him by suprise. To the OP, you bring up some really good questions, and they deserve serious answers, or at least an attempt of a serious answer.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Feb 1, 2014)

In a way, we do kind of live forever, through reproduction.


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## warmouth (Feb 1, 2014)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> In a way, we do kind of live forever, through reproduction.



That is exactly how the first jews believed in eternal life! Good point.  It wasnt until much later that resurrection was taught, and it was more clear then. But that is a really really good point.


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## StriperrHunterr (Feb 3, 2014)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> In a way, we do kind of live forever, through reproduction.



That's what I've come to call "The Stream." We all make ripples every day, and they are carried away from us in the stream to the rest of the world. 

Kind of like the butterfly effect but relative to philosophy.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2014)

warmouth said:


> I dont believe in the freedom of the will. I believe in the bondage of the will. God has everything planned according to His ultimate will according to the Bible. What I'm trying to say is, if God is truely sovereign and knows all things, then nothing takes Him by suprise. To the OP, you bring up some really good questions, and they deserve serious answers, or at least an attempt of a serious answer.



Do you feel it is OK for Christians to ask questions such as the OP and is it OK to discuss these topice with Atheist and people of various religions? I do have and ask similar questions about sin, free will, and God's ways. If the question pops in my head, I feel it is worth discussing even if no definite answer can be established. We don't know or understand everything about God's ways, but I don't consider it demeaning to God or Christianity to discuss Biblical topics. Otherwise where do we draw the line on what we can discus?. 
I've seen discussions go on for a few pages and sudennly someone will say "God's ways are not our ways," even though they took part in the whole discussion up to that point. 
Another example is after three pages of a discussion on grace or election someone whose been in the whole discussion will finally say "I don't really know but I do know what John 3:16 says."
Any way just looking for input on if we can discuss topics without being accused of second guessing God or leading someone away from Christianity.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 3, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you feel it is OK for Christians to ask questions such as the OP and is it OK to discuss these topice with Atheist and people of various religions? I do have and ask similar questions about sin, free will, and God's ways. If the question pops in my head, I feel it is worth discussing even if no definite answer can be established. We don't know or understand everything about God's ways, but I don't consider it demeaning to God or Christianity to discuss Biblical topics. Otherwise where do we draw the line on what we can discus?.
> I've seen discussions go on for a few pages and sudennly someone will say "God's ways are not our ways," even though they took part in the whole discussion up to that point.
> Another example is after three pages of a discussion on grace or election someone whose been in the whole discussion will finally say "I don't really know but I do know what John 3:16 says."
> Any way just looking for input on if we can discuss topics without being accused of second guessing God or leading someone away from Christianity.



Many people get rather upset with me when discussing this issue (as I'm sure you have noticed).  I think the main problem most people have with accepting that man has the freedom (given to him by God) to choose what he wants to do, is that it takes away from the concept that God is in control of everything that happens and God knows the future.


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## ambush80 (Feb 3, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've seen discussions go on for a few pages and sudennly someone will say "God's ways are not our ways," even though they took part in the whole discussion up to that point.
> Another example is after three pages of a discussion on grace or election someone whose been in the whole discussion will finally say "I don't really know but I do know what John 3:16 says."



_"Trust and obey, for there's no other way 
	to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey." _


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Many people get rather upset with me when discussing this issue (as I'm sure you have noticed).  I think the main problem most people have with accepting that man has the freedom (given to him by God) to choose what he wants to do, is that it takes away from the concept that God is in control of everything that happens and God knows the future.



How does one come about to choose a belief in predestination or election?


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## ambush80 (Feb 3, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> How does one come about to choose a belief in predestination or election?



I think the same way that one interprets any tenet of the Bible "It feels right".


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> I think the same way that one interprets any tenet of the Bible "It feels right".



Wouldn't choosing to believe in predestination or election be an oxymoron?


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## ambush80 (Feb 3, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Wouldn't choosing to believe in predestination or election be an oxymoron?



Now you get it.


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## warmouth (Feb 3, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you feel it is OK for Christians to ask questions such as the OP and is it OK to discuss these topice with Atheist and people of various religions? I do have and ask similar questions about sin, free will, and God's ways. If the question pops in my head, I feel it is worth discussing even if no definite answer can be established. We don't know or understand everything about God's ways, but I don't consider it demeaning to God or Christianity to discuss Biblical topics. Otherwise where do we draw the line on what we can discus?.
> I've seen discussions go on for a few pages and sudennly someone will say "God's ways are not our ways," even though they took part in the whole discussion up to that point.
> Another example is after three pages of a discussion on grace or election someone whose been in the whole discussion will finally say "I don't really know but I do know what John 3:16 says."
> Any way just looking for input on if we can discuss topics without being accused of second guessing God or leading someone away from Christianity.


I do. One of the greatest joys for me in life is to discuss differing worldviews concerning religion and philosophy. I'm unsure who here is a christian or not, but I am learning as I go. These type of discussions are what makes me feel somewhat needed because I can at least give one side of an argument that has too many sides to begin with. Capish?


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## warmouth (Feb 3, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Many people get rather upset with me when discussing this issue (as I'm sure you have noticed).  I think the main problem most people have with accepting that man has the freedom (given to him by God) to choose what he wants to do, is that it takes away from the concept that God is in control of everything that happens and God knows the future.



"Freedom (given by God)". Is that true freedom, or given freedom? Fair question. If man is truely free to choose by his own ability, then it needs not be given by God, as that would be influenced by a force outside of onesownself. If man Iis capable of choosing based on his own free will, then the only thing that can Influence his decision is his will, outside of God.


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## warmouth (Feb 3, 2014)

artfuldodger said:


> wouldn't choosing to believe in predestination or election be an oxymoron?


 lol!


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## HawgJawl (Feb 4, 2014)

warmouth said:


> "Freedom (given by God)". Is that true freedom, or given freedom? Fair question. If man is truely free to choose by his own ability, then it needs not be given by God, as that would be influenced by a force outside of onesownself. If man Iis capable of choosing based on his own free will, then the only thing that can Influence his decision is his will, outside of God.



Every decision we make is influenced by something.  There is no completely free choice.  The "predetermined" viewpoint is that God completely controls every single thing we do as if we are robots.  I think there is room for some middle ground.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2014)

warmouth said:


> I do. One of the greatest joys for me in life is to discuss differing worldviews concerning religion and philosophy. I'm unsure who here is a christian or not, but I am learning as I go. These type of discussions are what makes me feel somewhat needed because I can at least give one side of an argument that has too many sides to begin with. Capish?



I agree and am looking foward to your input. Is it OK if I call you Stumpknocker?


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## devils12 (Feb 4, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Every decision we make is influenced by something.  There is no completely free choice.  The "predetermined" viewpoint is that God completely controls every single thing we do as if we are robots.  I think there is room for some middle ground.



This is amazing to me. Bullethead and i discussed this before ad nauseum. God did not wnat us to be robots, He gave us free will. If not for eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge, man would have lived forever. The Word says that there was no death, sickness or any other malady. The first sacrifice was the animal that died for Adam and Eve to have clothing. If He did not give us free will, we would be robots!


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## bullethead (Feb 4, 2014)

devils12 said:


> This is amazing to me. Bullethead and i discussed this before ad nauseum. God did not wnat us to be robots, He gave us free will. If not for eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge, man would have lived forever. The Word says that there was no death, sickness or any other malady. The first sacrifice was the animal that died for Adam and Eve to have clothing. If He did not give us free will, we would be robots!



God knew what Adam would do...so was it Free Will? Knowing Adam would eat the fruit God could have put the tree somewhere else.


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## bullethead (Feb 4, 2014)

devils12 said:


> This is amazing to me. Bullethead and i discussed this before ad nauseum. God did not wnat us to be robots, He gave us free will. If not for eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge, man would have lived forever. The Word says that there was no death, sickness or any other malady. The first sacrifice was the animal that died for Adam and Eve to have clothing. If He did not give us free will, we would be robots!



Overpopulation is a problem now. I cannot imagine why God would want everyone to have lived forever since the first human.
If there is a God.....he knew what he was doing putting that tree within easy reach.
Then again it is nothing that  a couple of floods every thousand years or so couldn't keep in check.

Be dumb and live forever or be knowledgeable and die.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 4, 2014)

Lets read the following scripture and attempt to view it as being spoken by someone who KNOWS the future:

Genesis 3: 22-24 
And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.  He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”  So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.  After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Man must not be allowed to do something.  That indicates that there is a possibility that it might happen if not for intervention.  If the future is known, there are no alternate futures, there is only the future and no need to even make this statement.

God placed a guard in case of what?  Was there a possibility of anything happening other than what God KNEW was going to happen?  Was there a possibility that Adam and Eve might sneak back into heaven if not for this guard?


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## bullethead (Feb 4, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Lets read the following scripture and attempt to view it as being spoken by someone who KNOWS the future:
> 
> Genesis 3: 22-24
> And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.  He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”  So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.  After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
> ...



Exactly.


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## devils12 (Feb 4, 2014)

No. the temptation was there for them to go back and eat from that tree as well. 3 Lusts that lead to trouble: Lust of the eyes. Lust of the flesh. The boastful pride of life. You are making the point yourself and do not want to see it. If God controlled them as robots, none of this would have happened!


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## HawgJawl (Feb 4, 2014)

devils12 said:


> No. the temptation was there for them to go back and eat from that tree as well. 3 Lusts that lead to trouble: Lust of the eyes. Lust of the flesh. The boastful pride of life. You are making the point yourself and do not want to see it. If God controlled them as robots, none of this would have happened!



I agree that we have choices and are not robots.  I never meant to indicate that I believe in predestination.  The point I was making goes further than predestination and shows that God did not know the future.


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## 660griz (Feb 4, 2014)

God should have just 'smited' those two and started over. He couldn't have been too attached to them yet. Plus, he said, eat and you die. Well, they should have died and he just kept making Adam and Eves till he got a pair that minded. Hey, it wasn't like he was going to run out of dirt.

Do you really want to start off mankind with folks that listen to a talking snake?


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## bullethead (Feb 4, 2014)

Maybe he should have just gotten rid of the snake.


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## devils12 (Feb 4, 2014)

He knew! The preparations of the Cross were being prepared before the echo of the crunch had died out!


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## 660griz (Feb 4, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Maybe he should have just gotten rid of the snake.



I don't think he could. I mean, he can't create people without dirt and ribs. Can't kill everyone on earth without a flood. Can't save anything without a boat. Can't save us without a sacrifice of his only son.
I gotta tell ya, this all powerful God seems a little suspicious to me.


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## ambush80 (Feb 4, 2014)

660griz said:


> I don't think he could. I mean, he can't create people without dirt and ribs. Can't kill everyone on earth without a flood. Can't save anything without a boat. Can't save us without a sacrifice of his only son.
> I gotta tell ya, this all powerful God seems a little suspicious to me.



...a character, to be sure.  I like Him. He's kooky. But I won't worship Him.

http://


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## HawgJawl (Feb 4, 2014)

devils12 said:


> He knew! The preparations of the Cross were being prepared before the echo of the crunch had died out!



Now that you know the point I'm trying to make, read post #32 again.

What purpose is served by a statement about different possible outcomes if there is no concept of more than one possible future?


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## bullethead (Feb 4, 2014)

devils12 said:


> He knew! The preparations of the Cross were being prepared before the echo of the crunch had died out!



Everything exactly according to his plan.


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## devils12 (Feb 4, 2014)

In response to that and also #32
He is an omniscient God. He was not suprised by them eating the fruit and He is not suprised by other things that happen. He gives us a choice to choose this way or that. The choice we make is up to us and then there is a new set of circumstances involved with that choice. He knows all of the forks in the road and where they lead to!


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## ambush80 (Feb 4, 2014)

devils12 said:


> In response to that and also #32
> He is an omniscient God. He was not suprised by them eating the fruit and He is not suprised by other things that happen. He gives us a choice to choose this way or that. The choice we make is up to us and then there is a new set of circumstances involved with that choice. He knows all of the forks in the road and where they lead to!



You have no idea what you're saying, do you?


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## HawgJawl (Feb 4, 2014)

devils12 said:


> In response to that and also #32
> He is an omniscient God. He was not suprised by them eating the fruit and He is not suprised by other things that happen. He gives us a choice to choose this way or that. The choice we make is up to us and then there is a new set of circumstances involved with that choice. He knows all of the forks in the road and where they lead to!



So then it would not be possible for God to ever "regret" anything He has done, correct?


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## devils12 (Feb 4, 2014)

The fact is that He so loved the world that he gave His only son... and also that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us! Not before we believed but that we would believe! Read Romans 1
John 3:15 and Romans 5:8


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## bullethead (Feb 4, 2014)

devils12 said:


> The fact is that He so loved the world that he gave His only son... and also that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us! Not before we believed but that we would believe! Read Romans 1
> John 3:15 and Romans 5:8



I don't drown things when I love them.


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## devils12 (Feb 4, 2014)

He did not regret as we regret. He was grieved by the actions of man and there lusts of sin


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## HawgJawl (Feb 4, 2014)

devils12 said:


> The fact is that He so loved the world that he gave His only son... and also that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us! Not before we believed but that we would believe! Read Romans 1
> John 3:15 and Romans 5:8



You're not overly concerned with staying on topic, are you?

But, alright, we can jump somewhere else if you wish.

Did God love everyone?  Are there some people that God does not love?


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## HawgJawl (Feb 4, 2014)

devils12 said:


> He did not regret as we regret. He was grieved by the actions of man and there lusts of sin



Was He grieved with the way things turned out or by the way He designed them to be from the beginning?


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## bullethead (Feb 4, 2014)

How could an all knowing being NOT know his Angels were going to come down to Earth and breed with mortal women and create Giants? Ya think he would have stopped them at the Gate.
Or is he not as all knowing as you would leave us to believe?


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## bullethead (Feb 4, 2014)

Devils12, getting back to the original question...why didn't he want Adam and Eve knowledgeable?


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## devils12 (Feb 4, 2014)

I am off topic how? I am answering the questions that were asked going back to OP. He was grieved by how they turned out. Again, He gave man free choice and that is the choices that were made. It was way beyond Adam and Eve when He flooded the earth. See the 3 lusts above. Look at a 2 year old that snatches something from another and says "mine". Did their parents teach them that or is it from free choice and also that we are all born into sin?


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## TripleXBullies (Feb 4, 2014)

Baby sins are the worst....


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## devils12 (Feb 4, 2014)

sorry! My screen did not refresh and answered another question


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## devils12 (Feb 4, 2014)

Bullethead

He did not want them to know of sin. Not knowledge of 2+2 etc. They were naked and not ashamed until they ate of the fruit, then they knew sin.


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## ambush80 (Feb 4, 2014)

devils12 said:


> I am off topic how? I am answering the questions that were asked going back to OP. He was grieved by how they turned out. Again, He gave man free choice and that is the choices that were made. It was way beyond Adam and Eve when He flooded the earth. See the 3 lusts above. Look at a 2 year old that snatches something from another and says "mine". Did their parents teach them that or is it from free choice and also that we are all born into sin?




If God knows if I will go to Heaven or He11, when exactly do I get to make a choice?


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## HawgJawl (Feb 4, 2014)

devils12 said:


> I am off topic how? I am answering the questions that were asked going back to OP. He was grieved by how they turned out. Again, He gave man free choice and that is the choices that were made. It was way beyond Adam and Eve when He flooded the earth. See the 3 lusts above. Look at a 2 year old that snatches something from another and says "mine". Did their parents teach them that or is it from free choice and also that we are all born into sin?



You make a good argument that God does NOT know the future.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 4, 2014)

devils12 said:


> Bullethead
> 
> He did not want them to know of sin. Not knowledge of 2+2 etc. They were naked and not ashamed until they ate of the fruit, then they knew sin.



They became aware of the horrible sin of being naked?


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## devils12 (Feb 4, 2014)

boy, you are about as incorrigible as they guy in your avatar


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## bullethead (Feb 4, 2014)

devils12 said:


> Bullethead
> 
> He did not want them to know of sin. Not knowledge of 2+2 etc. They were naked and not ashamed until they ate of the fruit, then they knew sin.



Oh, God did not want Adam and Eve to know of sin or evil. So he put the Tree in the Garden that would tell them all about it and he allowed a talking snake to have a conversation with her in order that the snake would convince her to disobey God.


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## Cullen Bohannon (Feb 4, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Oh, God did not want Adam and Eve to know of sin or evil. So he put the Tree in the Garden that would tell them all about it and he allowed a talking snake to have a conversation with her in order that the snake would convince her to disobey God.



The bible and religions are all about circular logic, aren't they?  Some of our minds don't work so well with circular logic.  I was born with a brain that uses linear logic, so all that biblical and religious malarkey just doesn't add up to me.

That's why I enjoy reading stuff in this sub-forum.  Most folks here use linear logic.  In other words, they can actually think for themselves.


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## bullethead (Feb 4, 2014)

Cullen Bohannon said:


> The bible and religions are all about circular logic, aren't they?  Some of our minds don't work so well with circular logic.  I was born with a brain that uses linear logic, so all that biblical and religious malarkey just doesn't add up to me.
> 
> That's why I enjoy reading stuff in this sub-forum.  Most folks here use linear logic.  In other words, they can actually think for themselves.



The circular logic and conflicting stories are the things that caused me to look outside of the Bible for answers.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2014)

devils12 said:


> In response to that and also #32
> He is an omniscient God. He was not suprised by them eating the fruit and He is not suprised by other things that happen. He gives us a choice to choose this way or that. The choice we make is up to us and then there is a new set of circumstances involved with that choice. He knows all of the forks in the road and where they lead to!



That's and interesting concept about the forks in the road. Could you explain that in a little more detail? Is it like, God has given us multiple choices and we choose one? God doesn't choose that fork for us but has already laid out or destiny depending upon what fork we choose?
We have God enforced multiple destinies based upon our choices?


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## devils12 (Feb 5, 2014)

First of all, you must believe in predestination... Let's just say for argument that you are with friends and they are doing heroin, God was not surprised that you are there. He let's you make your choice to do it or not. He always provides a way out, it is just your choice to go out the door or stay and get high...


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## devils12 (Feb 5, 2014)

It is obvious that He does not want you to get high. If you do, He doesnt become Cosmic Sheriff looking for a way to get you. He is still there and still loves you the same. Now lets say you did it and then you become addicted, He is not surprised, He will do for you as He has for others and offer you a way out. You make your choices again. It is all about free will, which is where this thread started. It is our lusts that cause us to sin, not Him being out of control!


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## HawgJawl (Feb 5, 2014)

devils12 said:


> First of all, you must believe in predestination... Let's just say for argument that you are with friends and they are doing heroin, God was not surprised that you are there. He let's you make your choice to do it or not. He always provides a way out, it is just your choice to go out the door or stay and get high...



Just to be clear, are you saying that you believe God knows the future, or are you saying that you believe God knows the options you will have and where they will lead but He does not know which option you will choose?


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## bullethead (Feb 5, 2014)

devils12 said:


> First of all, you must believe in predestination... Let's just say for argument that you are with friends and they are doing heroin, God was not surprised that you are there. He let's you make your choice to do it or not. He always provides a way out, it is just your choice to go out the door or stay and get high...



"He always provides a way out"
I would say that there are people that have been put into situations, due to no fault or choice of their own, that would disagree with you.
Children and Adults that are victims of abuse(in many forms) just as an example of many.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 5, 2014)

devils12 said:


> It is obvious that He does not want you to get high. If you do, He doesnt become Cosmic Sheriff looking for a way to get you. He is still there and still loves you the same. Now lets say you did it and then you become addicted, He is not surprised, He will do for you as He has for others and offer you a way out. You make your choices again. It is all about free will, which is where this thread started. It is our lusts that cause us to sin, not Him being out of control!


I have to be honest, Im not buying it.
People of other religions have those same ways out.
People of no religion have those same ways out.
People who worship Satan have those same ways out.
All religions will say "insert their gods name here" gave them the way out.
The only fact in the entire scenario is they either get themselves out or stay in.


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## devils12 (Feb 5, 2014)

bullethead said:


> "He always provides a way out"
> I would say that there are people that have been put into situations, due to no fault or choice of their own, that would disagree with you.
> Children and Adults that are victims of abuse(in many forms) just as an example of many.



That is just an example of the evil in this world. Even the bible says that satan will rule this earth for a period of time. There are many examples of evil, death, and bad things happening that make me scratch my head, but it is already stated that we are in the world system that satan rules.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 5, 2014)

devils12 said:


> That is just an example of the evil in this world. Even the bible says that satan will rule this earth for a period of time. There are many examples of evil, death, and bad things happening that make me scratch my head, but it is already stated that we are in the world system that satan rules.



Is Satan in control of the world or is God?


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## bullethead (Feb 5, 2014)

devils12 said:


> That is just an example of the evil in this world. Even the bible says that satan will rule this earth for a period of time. There are many examples of evil, death, and bad things happening that make me scratch my head, but it is already stated that we are in the world system that satan rules.



Excuses are like.....well you know the rest of that line.
How much of a God do you really think he is if he cannot take care of Satan? WHO is in control? WHO is powerful? The Bible has taught it's believers to make excuses for the non involvement and non existence of a made up being. How anyone can worship the Bible's version of a God is beyond me.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 5, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Is Satan in control of the world or is God?


I wish these guys would make up their mind!


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