# 'A lot' of homeschooled kids are 'demented'



## Double Barrel BB (Nov 21, 2008)

'A lot' of homeschooled kids are 'demented'
<!-- end head --><!-- deck -->[SIZE=+1]Joy Behar of 'The View': 'They learn to be scared of other children'[/SIZE]
<!-- end deck -->
<HR SIZE=1>Posted: November 21, 2008
12:00 am Eastern

While discussing Barack Obama and the education of his two daughters, Joy Behar, a former public school teacher, described homeschooled children as "demented" on ABC's "The View."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gq9yefHhhI&eurl=http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81556


"I think they should get an education just like George Bush in the White House did," Behar joked on the Nov. 19 show. 
The audience laughed. 

Her co-host, Elisabeth Hasselbeck, replied, "I think [homeschooling] actually is a good thing." 
Then Behar cut her off, saying, "A lot of them are demented when they're homeschooled. … They're afraid of children. They learn to be scared of other children."


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## gordon 2 (Nov 21, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> 'A lot' of homeschooled kids are 'demented'
> <!-- end head --><!-- deck -->[SIZE=+1]Joy Behar of 'The View': 'They learn to be scared of other children'[/SIZE]
> <!-- end deck -->
> <HR SIZE=1>Posted: November 21, 2008
> ...



 Did she say "they can do it in consorshiam with other parents"?


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## Banjo (Nov 21, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> 'A lot' of homeschooled kids are 'demented'
> <!-- end head --><!-- deck -->[SIZE=+1]Joy Behar of 'The View': 'They learn to be scared of other children'[/SIZE]
> <!-- end deck -->
> <HR SIZE=1>Posted: November 21, 2008
> ...



What an idiot.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 21, 2008)

You mean the cross eyed blond? Somehow the Florida girls don't care for her! Or Joy? Joy was "kidding" right? Your not saying Joy is the idiot right?


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## gtparts (Nov 21, 2008)

gordon 2 said:


> Did she say "they can do it in consorshiam with other parents"?



Yes, she did. Spelled c-o-n-s-o-r-t-i-u-m .... a cooperative arrangement among groups or institutions; an association or society.


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## crackerdave (Nov 21, 2008)

It's a shame that people who are totally uninformed can make a statement like that,and millions of viewers will take it as fact - just because it was on TV!

Some of the most well-adjusted,well-behaved kids I know are home-schooled.


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## ToLog (Nov 21, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> It's a shame that people who are totally uninformed can make a statement like that,and millions of viewers will take it as fact - just because it was on TV!
> 
> Some of the most well-adjusted,well-behaved kids I know are home-schooled.




if we could just figure out a way to minimize the impacts of that one-eyed Monster, the TV. 

what wasn't fully explained, imho, is that "demented" might occur in the trinity of schooling. Public school kids, Private school kids, and home-schooled kids, could all be susceptible.

the story as presented, made it appear it occurred at the home-school level only.  (the tv influence, yet again.)


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## PWalls (Nov 21, 2008)

roothog said:


> if we could just figure out a way to minimize the impacts of that one-eyed Monster, the TV.



We have found at my house that simply turning it off is best. Haven't had cable or satellite or antenna for just over two years now. Get our weather and news and sports on the internet (which we can control). Children read books and play outside and with each other and family time is even better. Wish I had done it earlier. Not to mention the savings on a cable bill.


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## ToLog (Nov 21, 2008)

PWalls said:


> We have found at my house that simply turning it off is best.



sounds logical. the one-eyed Monster will cause folks to want things they can't afford. it causes folks to believe things that aren't "real."

More power to the private, home, and public-schooled teachers and parents who want their children to inherit a world worth fighting for.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 21, 2008)

PWalls said:


> We have found at my house that simply turning it off is best. Haven't had cable or satellite or antenna for just over two years now. Get our weather and news and sports on the internet (which we can control). Children read books and play outside and with each other and family time is even better. Wish I had done it earlier. Not to mention the savings on a cable bill.




When you really get serious, I have the phone number to this address:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeeObNFv30s&feature=related

It's kind of a home school univeristy.


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## crackerdave (Nov 22, 2008)

Way to go,PWalls! I wish we could put TV out of "business." But then - the Fedzilla's would only bail 'em out 

I've about reached the conclusion that $$$ is the only weapon we have to effect "change we need."


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## gordon 2 (Nov 22, 2008)

The Quick 10: 10 Famous Homeschooled People 
by Stacy Conradt - November 17, 2008 - 3:59 PM 
1. Agatha Christie. Agatha was a painfully shy girl, so her mom homeschooled her even though her two older siblings attended private school. 
2. Pearl S. Buck was born in West Virginia, but her family moved to China when she was just three months old. She was homeschooled by a Confucian scholar and learned English as a second language from her mom.
3. Alexander Graham Bell was homeschooled by his mother until he was about 10. It was at this point that she started to go deaf and didn’t feel she could properly educate him any more. Her deafness inspired Bell to study acoustics and sound later in life.
4. If Thomas Edison was around today, he would probably be diagnosed with ADD – he left public school after only three months because his mind wouldn’t stop wandering. His mom homeschooled him after that, and he credited her with the success of his education: “My mother was the making of me. She was so true, so sure of me; and I felt I had something to live for, someone I must not disappoint.” 
5. Ansel Adams was homeschooled at the age of 12 after his “wild laughter and undisguised contempt for the inept ramblings of his teachers” disrupted the classroom. His father took on his education from that point forward.
6. Robert Frost hated school so much he would get physically ill at the thought of going. He was homeschooled until his high school years.

7. Woodrow Wilson studied under his dad, one of the founders of the Southern Presbyterian Church in the United States (PCUS). He didn’t learn to read until he was about 12. He took a few classes at a school in Augusta, Georgia, to supplement his father’s teachings, and ended up spending a year at Davidson College before transferring to Princeton.
8. Mozart was educated by his dad as the Mozart family toured Europe from 1763-1766.
9. Laura Ingalls Wilder was homeschooled until her parents finally settled in De Smet in what was then Dakota Territory. She started teaching school herself when she was only 15 years old.

10. Louisa May Alcott studied mostly with her dad, but had a few lessons from family friends Henry David Thoreau, Ralph Waldo Emerson and Nathaniel Hawthorne. Can you imagine


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## rjcruiser (Nov 23, 2008)

Banjo said:


> What an idiot.



As someone who wasn't homeschooled and don't have kids in homeschool...I couldn't have said it better myself.


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## 12gamag (Nov 23, 2008)

I was homeschooled from 1st grade to graduation..lol-I reckon that means Im demented!!


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## gtparts (Nov 23, 2008)

12gamag said:


> I was homeschooled from 1st grade to graduation..lol-I reckon that means I'm demented!!



Still might be hard to make Ms. Behar's case. I, also, am demented....... and I was not homeschooled.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 25, 2008)

I am a homeschooled taxidermist. Here you judge if my face indicates dementia, or just disgust at the photographer.


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## PWalls (Nov 25, 2008)

gordon 2 said:


> I am a homeschooled taxidermist. Here you judge if my face indicates dementia, or just disgust at the photographer.



The shirt ain't helping.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 25, 2008)

B.U.M. equipment, brand name. Use to be weight lifting equipment.


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## Banjo (Nov 25, 2008)

Gordon...

I LOVED the pictures of you and your work!  Now I have a face to put with a name.  I am quite impressed with your taxidermy skills.


The third photo down is definitely disgust, not dementia.


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## Adirondacker (Nov 25, 2008)

My three non-demented adult children were home schooled. I can imagine Obama lovers would be concerned about citizens that were not indoctrinated in government schools. Their socialist gibberish is much harder to push on those nonconformist homeschoolers.


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## gtparts (Nov 26, 2008)

Adirondacker said:


> My three non-demented adult children were home schooled. I can imagine Obama lovers would be concerned about citizens that were not indoctrinated in government schools. Their socialist gibberish is much harder to push on those nonconformist homeschoolers.


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## Billrube (Dec 1, 2008)

It is just a reflection of everything viewed from the left:

a) you believe in pro-life  =  you're a hater of women
b) don't believe in the homosexual lifestyle = "homo-phobic" hater of homosexuals
c) didn't vote for Obama = you're a racist; hater of everybody

Anyone who does not agree with the far left and that whole agenda (the "government is the only answer" crowd) is "demented and twisted" in their view. 

Why do you think these leftist loons want all children in a government school? SO THEY WILL CONFORM TO THE "NORM" --IN SCHOOL THEY WILL BE RIDICULED FOR CENTER RIGHT BELIEFS UNTIL THEY FINALLY CAVE AND NOT SAY ANYTHING IN OPPOSITION. 

The View, my big ole' butt. The name should be changed to : The View (from the rectal cranial inversion perspective of the far left loons)

Sorry, was this too harsh?


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## Bigcountry30662 (Dec 2, 2008)

My Kids are in homeschool and I love it they are learning alot better than when they were in public school and also I dont have to worry about what kind of garbage  kids are filling my kids minds with or have to worry about them being shot because some kid found a gun and is mad because something that happened at school so he wants to start shooting everybody.......


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## Huntinfool (Dec 4, 2008)

gordon 2 said:


> The Quick 10: 10 Famous Homeschooled People
> by Stacy Conradt - November 17, 2008 - 3:59 PM
> 1. Agatha Christie. Agatha was a painfully shy girl, so her mom homeschooled her even though her two older siblings attended private school.
> 2. Pearl S. Buck was born in West Virginia, but her family moved to China when she was just three months old. She was homeschooled by a Confucian scholar and learned English as a second language from her mom.
> ...



Nice list.  Ever see the same list using public or government or privately schooled children?  I haven't seen it.  But I'm guessing it's fairly impressive.


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## crackerdave (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Nice list.  Ever see the same list using public or government or privately schooled children?  I haven't seen it.  But I'm guessing it's fairly impressive.


At least,in the sense that it'd be a lot longer.


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## Banjo (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Nice list.  Ever see the same list using public or government or privately schooled children?  I haven't seen it.  But I'm guessing it's fairly impressive.



You are the numbers' guy....You would have to figure the percentages out to make it a fair comparison!


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## Huntinfool (Dec 4, 2008)

I think homeschool is great!  Some of those kids (mostly because of crazy parents) are pretty dang odd.  That's just a fact.  Ever watch the dang spelling bee?

My wife is (was...she's at home right now) a teacher with a master's and specialist degree.  She probably the best teacher I've ever seen and most people I know would agree with that.  Should she home-school our kids, there is no doubt in my mind that they would get a better education than they could get anywhere else.

It's the folks who homeschool their kids and keep them in seclusion that concern me.  Those folks don't take advantage of the co-op programs that are available.  They don't take advantage of outside opportunities for education and for socialization and there is no DOUBT that if you keep your kids in your home and don't expose them to other kids consistently...they WILL be freak shows or "demented" when they get older.


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## gtparts (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> I think homeschool is great!  Some of those kids (mostly because of crazy parents) are pretty dang odd.  That's just a fact.  Ever watch the dang spelling bee?
> 
> My wife is (was...she's at home right now) a teacher with a master's and specialist degree.  She probably the best teacher I've ever seen and most people I know would agree with that.  Should she home-school our kids, there is no doubt in my mind that they would get a better education than they could get anywhere else.
> 
> It's the folks who homeschool their kids and keep them in seclusion that concern me.  Those folks don't take advantage of the co-op programs that are available.  They don't take advantage of outside opportunities for education and for socialization and there is no DOUBT that if you keep your kids in your home and don't expose them to other kids consistently...they WILL be freak shows or "demented" when they get older.



I agree.

 I think the real issue is balancing homeschool so that peer socialization takes place.
 Some homeschooled kids are there because they don't "fit in" well with others and are (made) miserable at public schools.
On the other hand, I have known homeschooled kids who were off-the-charts smart, but related better to adults than kids their own age due to isolation from peer interaction. 

One may be doing a better job of formal education as well as inculcating ones religious beliefs and moral values, but also handicapping a child socially, if one is not careful.


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## Banjo (Dec 4, 2008)

> They don't take advantage of outside opportunities for education and for socialization and there is no DOUBT that if you keep your kids in your home and don't expose them to other kids consistently...they WILL be freak shows or "demented" when they get older.



And if I ask you for personal examples of this....How many children that you know who have turned out demented because they were kept at home and not exposed to other children "consistently."  



> Should she home-school our kids, there is no doubt in my mind that they would get a better education than they could get anywhere else.



Welcome to homeschooling.....Looks like this should be a no-brainer.  You do want your children's education to be the best, right? (This came straight from your own keyboard).


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## dawg2 (Dec 4, 2008)

gtparts said:


> I agree.
> 
> I think the real issue is balancing homeschool so that peer socialization takes place.
> Some homeschooled kids are there because they don't "fit in" well with others and are (made) miserable at public schools.
> ...




I agree.


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## Banjo (Dec 4, 2008)

> I think the real issue is balancing homeschool so that peer socialization takes place.



Peer socialization????  There are some "peers" that I wouldn't allow to "socialize" my children.  You have bought psychology's garbage, which is Humanistic and anti-Christian.

Where in the Bible are we commanded to make sure our children are "socialized" by their peers?


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## dawg2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Peer socialization????  There are some "peers" that I wouldn't allow to "socialize" my children.  You have bought psychology's garbage, which is Humanistic and anti-Christian.
> 
> Where in the Bible are we commanded to make sure our children are "socialized" by their peers?



I would say they need to know how to inetract with people their age.


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## Banjo (Dec 4, 2008)

You guys need to get out more....

At our church, most of the families homeschool.  (Interestingly enough, manyof the moms and dads were public school teachers....Many have their masters, one has her specialist's degree, and another his doctorate....yet they all opted for homeschooling.

You would be hard pressed to meet a nicer bunch of children.  They are very social, able to converse with people of all ages.


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## dawg2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> You guys need to get out more....
> 
> At our church, most of the families homeschool.  (Interestingly enough, manyof the moms and dads were public school teachers....Many have their masters, one has her specialist's degree, and another his doctorate....yet they all opted for homeschooling.
> 
> You would be hard pressed to meet a nicer bunch of children.  They are very social, able to converse with people of all ages.



Believe me when I say I get out and have seen a lot of things.

BUT, I think you missed the point.  No one was saying that ALL kids that are homeschooled are "socially retarded" (that is a phrase I have heard mentioned by others critical of the practice) but there are truly some that may get little interaction with people other than their family.  That is what was trying to be said.  No need to get all "puffed-up."


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## gtparts (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> And if I ask you for personal examples of this....How many children that you know who have turned out demented because they were kept at home and not exposed to other children "consistently."
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to homeschooling.....Looks like this should be a no-brainer.  You do want your children's education to be the best, right? (This came straight from your own keyboard).



The obvious omission here is your recognition of HF's wife's eminent suitability to the task of homeschooling. Few moms know squat about early, middle, or high school education beyond what they themselves experienced as students. 

Homeschooling is not right for everybody. It is not the answer to all our social ills and what you believe to be the sorry state of all public education.

Soapbox is yours, Ms. Banjo.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 4, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Believe me when I say I get out and have seen a lot of things.
> 
> BUT, I think you missed the point.  No one was saying that ALL kids that are homeschooled are "socially retarded" (that is a phrase I have heard mentioned by others critical of the practice) but there are truly some that may get little interaction with people other than their family.  That is what was trying to be said.  No need to get all "puffed-up."



Yup...Dawg2, I agree with you.  I've seen instances of both.  

One example of a friend I grew up with.  Private school thru 2nd grade then homeschooled till college.  His parents controlled everything in his life until college.  Bright kid.  Went to UCLA on a full scholarship (pretty hard to do as a non-sport playing white kid).  Well, first semester, he barely passed his classes and almost lost his scholarship.  Why?  He played video games and watched TV all semester in his dorm room.  He had no parent their to tell him what to do.  He couldn't make the wise decision for himself because he'd never been taught how to.

Oh...I know....an isolated incident


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## Huntinfool (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> And if I ask you for personal examples of this....How many children that you know who have turned out demented because they were kept at home and not exposed to other children "consistently."
> 
> Welcome to homeschooling.....Looks like this should be a no-brainer.  You do want your children's education to be the best, right? (This came straight from your own keyboard).



I do have more than a few examples of parents who pulled their kids out for the wrong reasons and their kids suffered for it...even though their education may or may not have improved.  

My wife absolutely could educate our kids.  But there are lots of private schools out there that can do a great job as well, offer them socialization and extracuricular that homeschool can't AND allow her to go back to work at some point to help us get to our financial goals faster. 

There is always a balance of acceptable alternatives.


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## Banjo (Dec 4, 2008)

O.k....

How about this angle?

How many weird and demented public school children do you know?

You could start with Columbine....


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## dawg2 (Dec 4, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Yup...Dawg2, I agree with you.  I've seen instances of both.
> 
> One example of a friend I grew up with.  Private school thru 2nd grade then homeschooled till college.  His parents controlled everything in his life until college.  Bright kid.  Went to UCLA on a full scholarship (pretty hard to do as a non-sport playing white kid).  Well, first semester, he barely passed his classes and almost lost his scholarship.  Why?  He played video games and watched TV all semester in his dorm room.  He had no parent their to tell him what to do.  He couldn't make the wise decision for himself because he'd never been taught how to.
> 
> Oh...I know....an isolated incident




I've seen that.


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## Huntinfool (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> O.k....
> 
> How about this angle?
> 
> ...



You're too defensive about homeschooling to see the point we're making.

Homeschool can be and is a great thing in many cases.  But there are lots of cases as well where the parents do more damage than good.

I know several folks who pulled their kids because they were getting picked on (mistake #1), who don't even have a college education (mistake #2) and then try to educate their middle school aged kids using some curriculum they bought off the internet....and they don't even understand half of what they are trying to teach...and they keep their kids at home all the time because they don't want other kids to pick on them.

That's just bad all around.  

Nobody is saying that YOU made a bad decision or that you aren't doing a great job with your kids.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> My wife absolutely could educate our kids.  But there are lots of private schools out there that can do a great job as well, offer them socialization and extracuricular that homeschool can't AND allow her to go back to work at some point to help us get to our financial goals faster.
> 
> There is always a balance of acceptable alternatives.



I guess that would be an acceptable alternative if you don't think it is unbiblical for a mother to work outside the home.


Titus 2:3-5
Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.


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## dawg2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> O.k....
> 
> How about this angle?
> 
> ...



Take a DEEP breath.....now exhale.....


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## gtparts (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> O.k....
> 
> How about this angle?
> 
> ...



Nice try, but Columbine and the few other examples are a statistical aberration when viewed as annual in-school multiple homicides per school. Then try a 20 yr. period. Even counting single homicide examples, it is not argumentatively sound from a statistical standpoint.

( Don't bother to drag out that thing of the event being highly significant to those involved. While I am sympathetic to their reality, it is an emotional rabbit that has no place here.)


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## Banjo (Dec 4, 2008)

I am not mad.....nor am I taking any of this personally...I am quite secure in my homeschooling endeavors.

Look at all my smilies:


Let me ask you guys this....Who gets to decide who is "qualified" to teach?  Does a college degree make one "qualified?"  The state gets to decide???? Sounds like totalitarianism to me.

I have known several teachers who made it through college, but were completely inept and ignorant.


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## Banjo (Dec 4, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Nice try, but Columbine and the few other examples are a statistical aberration when viewed as annual in-school multiple homicides per school. Then try a 20 yr. period. Even counting single homicide examples, it is not argumentatively sound from a statistical standpoint.
> 
> ( Don't bother to drag out that thing of the event being highly significant to those involved. While I am sympathetic to their reality, it is an emotional rabbit that has no place here.)



O.k. how about drugs and teenage STD's and pregnancies?  I once knew a pregnant 5th (yep, that is right) grader.  I wonder if her parents wished she had gotten more "socialized" by her peers.


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## Banjo (Dec 4, 2008)

> My wife absolutely could educate our kids. But there are lots of private schools out there that can do a great job as well, offer them socialization and extracuricular that homeschool can't AND allow her to go back to work at some point to help us get to our financial goals faster.
> 
> There is always a balance of acceptable alternatives.



Your finances are more important than your children's education?  You said your wife would provide your children with the most quality education.

Most people choose not to homeschool because they don't want to....not because they can't.  I often marvel at the comments I get from others...things like:

"Oh, I could never homeschool.  I couldn't stand to be with my children all day." 

or...

"It is easier for me to work than to stay home with my children."

or

"My children mind other people so much better than me."

Very sad indeed....


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## gtparts (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> I am not mad.....nor am I taking any of this personally...I am quite secure in my homeschooling endeavors.
> 
> Look at all my smilies:
> 
> ...



Exceptions do not disprove the general rule or rationally refute the fact that most with a teaching degree are better equipped to teach than those who have no degree.

Come on, Banjo, I know you can do better than that weak line.


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## gtparts (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> O.k. how about drugs and teenage STD's and pregnancies?



You buying or selling?




Banjo said:


> I once knew a pregnant 5th (yep, that is right) grader.  I wonder if her parents wished she had gotten more "socialized" by her peers.


Only one?
Got pregnant in school?
And it happened because she was not homeschooled?
OR
It happened because she was in a public school?

'Nother rabbit.

Come on, Banjo. Pull out the heavy artillery.


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## Huntinfool (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Your finances are more important than your children's education?  You said your wife would provide your children with the most quality education.....



The question is what is my definition of acceptable education?  There are many private schools that are FULL of teachers who are dedicated to a more than quilty education for my children.  The one at my church is one of those schools.  It's a classical education and is phenominal!!!

So, no, my finances are not more important.  But if we can achieve our educational goals and our financial goals, then I'm all for it.

You assume that I would sacrifice my kids for my money and that just isn't true.  I am simply of the opinion that my children can get an unbelievably good education at a private school.  We will always suppliment at home.

I do agree with you though.  I know plenty of TERRIBLE teachers.  That's not the issue.  The issue is with parents who have no education themselves who are under the impression that they can educate their children.  It's silly.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> "It is easier for me to work than to stay home with my children."




I'd have to say that many mothers (including my wife--I think) would agree with that statement...but few choose to actually suck it up and stay home with their kids.

I'm grateful that my wife actually feels that it is important to take the harder of the two paths.


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## PWalls (Dec 4, 2008)

I think homeschooling is a viable option. Just like public and private schools.

However, there should be an established curriculum and test objectives. I think that is the case already. No one should leave private or home school and be less educated than public school systems. That would be terrible based on some of the results that public schools put out.

As far as "teachers" of home-school kids, I think there should be some sort of qualification there as well. How can you teach math if you are having to learn it at the same time as your child? I am not for government control, but that should be a no-brainer.


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## Huntin' Dawg (Dec 4, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Exceptions do not disprove the general rule or rationally refute the fact that most with a teaching degree are better equipped to teach than those who have no degree.
> 
> Come on, Banjo, I know you can do better than that weak line.



If you'd prefer to focus on general rules and trends, then perhaps we can discuss the trend among Ivy League institutions, to accept home-schoolers at a rate of up to TWO TIMES higher than applicants who were instructed  by the 'more qualified' government school educators.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,53959,00.html?iid=digg_share

By the way, another case of "early dementia" may be seen in the young lady at the top left of this post.  

Let me know if any of the government school alumni have trouble reading the attached Time article-- I'm sure that she'd be happy to read it aloud for you.


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## Huntinfool (Dec 4, 2008)

Man!  Homeschoolers sure are touchy!

I say this all the time and it's true in every case I can think of.  Stereotypes, while not true of all involved are ALWAYS based (to whatever degree) in truth.


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## Banjo (Dec 4, 2008)

> Come on, Banjo, I know you can do better than that weak line.



Well....I did pull out Biblical mandates at the beginning of this thread.....


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## rjcruiser (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> I say this all the time and it's true in every case I can think of.  Stereotypes, while not true of all involved are ALWAYS based (to whatever degree) in truth.



Hmmm.....kinda like all southerners have a fridge on their front porch and all californians are homosexual nut jobs who smoke weed


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## Banjo (Dec 4, 2008)

Does anyone else on here have a problem with the state deciding who is and who is not qualified to home educate?


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## crackerdave (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> O.k....
> 
> How about this angle?
> 
> ...



There again -as you said - math would need to be done for a fair comparison to be done.Or is that only necessary when the shoe's on the other foot?


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## PWalls (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Does anyone else on here have a problem with the state deciding who is and who is not qualified to home educate?



What is your solution then? Should a parent who didn't finish high school themselves and can barely hold down a job flipping fries at McDonald's be allowed to teach their children at home?


----------



## crackerdave (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Does anyone else on here have a problem with the state deciding who is and who is not qualified to home educate?



Ask your doctor/governor if home-schooling is right for you!


----------



## Huntin' Dawg (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Man!  Homeschoolers sure are touchy!
> 
> I say this all the time and it's true in every case I can think of.  Stereotypes, while not true of all involved are ALWAYS based (to whatever degree) in truth.



This is not a question of stereotypes, but of demagoguery and spin.

It is a matter of a failed government education system which is infected with union control and suffering the fate of protected monopolies.

Unwilling to change its own practices, and unable to honestly debate the reality of its failure, this broken system and its advocates have now resorted to fear-based tactics, hoping to convince parents that leaving "the system" will irreparably harm their young.

Am I touchy?  No.

Am I angered that a group of economically motivated actors would stoop so low?  Yes.


----------



## Huntin' Dawg (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Does anyone else on here have a problem with the state deciding who is and who is not qualified to home educate?



How about if we test the home educators, but also have the government school educators take the same test, with the result that ANYONE not passing would be automatically and irrevocably precluded from further teaching.

Do you think the unions would be willing to take up that challenge??????  

op2:


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Does anyone else on here have a problem with the state deciding who is and who is not qualified to home educate?


 

Why not just make a home educator take the certification tests that all State Certified Teachers have to take??? If you pass you can be a Home School Teacher, if you don't well study and try again..



I personally would not want to teach Grammer to my child, I am not good at it... Now Literature, Science, Math, and Social Studies I could handle, but not the grammer... Perhaps it has something to do with my dislexia....

DB BB


----------



## Banjo (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntin' Dawg said:


> This is not a question of stereotypes, but of demagoguery and spin.
> 
> It is a matter of a failed government education system which is infected with union control and suffering the fate of protected monopolies.
> 
> ...



There is NO WAY that I could have said this better!


----------



## SHMELTON (Dec 4, 2008)

I know quite a few home school children, my boy would be home schooled if it wasn't for the fact that he is a non verbal 5 yr old, and needs as much social interaction as possible to build his vocabulary.  With that being said most of the kids that I know that are home schooled are precieved as wierd.  And, after thinking about this it more than likely stems from a huge imagination, and creativity that comes from not being around other children.  One kid I knw is 7 and has created his on language to speak and write.  He is a genius, but I seriously doubt he would have ever done so if he had other friends to play with on a daily basis.


----------



## PWalls (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntin' Dawg said:


> How about if we test the home educators, but also have the government school educators take the same test, with the result that ANYONE not passing would be automatically and irrevocably precluded from further teaching.
> 
> Do you think the unions would be willing to take up that challenge??????
> 
> op2:



So, does the fact that a person/parent graduated high school (regardless of GPA) mean that this person/parent is qualified to teach a child that same high school curriculum?


----------



## Banjo (Dec 4, 2008)

The federal government's involvement in education is unconstitutional....and an insult to the American people....

The Department of Education should be eliminated; we could get by quite well without it...and did for most of the twentieth century...

Do you think it is a coincidence that the American populace was better educated then?


----------



## PWalls (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Do you think it is a coincidence that the American populace was better educated then?



That has way more to do with values and accountibility at home than it does with government intrusion on an education system. Children were encouraged and then held accountible to goals and education.


----------



## Wild Turkey (Dec 4, 2008)

How about a little food for thought.
The person makes the education, an education doesnt make a sucessful/smart person.
Regardless of education, some people are just gifted to learn and exceed. 

98% of people who are educated at home or public will only be as smart or less than their teachers.


----------



## Huntin' Dawg (Dec 4, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Why not just make a home educator take the certification tests that all State Certified Teachers have to take??? If you pass you can be a Home School Teacher, if you don't well study and try again..
> 
> 
> DB BB



Fine with me.  When I pass, do I get to feed at the trough, or get the benefit of a property tax exemption, or at least a nifty T-Shirt?

Hey, maybe I can become a member of the NEA !!!
http://www.nea.org/aboutnea/join.html

By the way, once we start down the road of having to _prove_ to the guberment that we are competent to take care of our own needs, where do you think it will end?


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 4, 2008)

I will give you an example of a bad homeschool parent... This is comming from my wife that has now taught Math(geometry, algebra1&2, etc) in the Public School System for 10 years....

Parents pulled a child out of public school, to supposedly homeschool...

Parents version of homeschool: buy I book at local bookstore, can't remember the name of the book but it was like one of those Math for dummies...

Parents decide after 2 years to put their kid back into public school...

Child is supposed to have an learned Algebra 2

My wife sees he is having trouble... requests that he should be tested and he test out as only knowing basic algebra 1...

Instead of being on an 11th grade math level, he is on an 8th grade math level...

Sad, very sad...

DB BB


----------



## Huntinfool (Dec 4, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Hmmm.....kinda like all southerners have a fridge on their front porch and all californians are homosexual nut jobs who smoke weed



Nope....but there are enough of both that do to make lots of folks think it's true of all


----------



## Huntinfool (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntin' Dawg said:


> This is not a question of stereotypes, but of demagoguery and spin.
> 
> It is a matter of a failed government education system which is infected with union control and suffering the fate of protected monopolies.
> 
> ...



Ever consider private school?  Nobody said you have to send your kids to public school.  Mine won't go there.

This is not a debate on the merits of homeschool.  It's a question of whether there are some parents who make that decision for the wrong reasons and to the detriment of their children.  The answer to that question is without doubt....YES.  Is it the case in all or even most homeschool decisions?  Probably not.  But nobody and I mean NOBODY who has posted has made that assertion.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntin' Dawg said:


> Fine with me. When I pass, do I get to feed at the trough, or get the benefit of a property tax exemption, or at least a nifty T-Shirt?
> 
> Hey, maybe I can become a member of the NEA !!!
> http://www.nea.org/aboutnea/join.html
> ...


 

Didn't say you had to take classes in education... or have an education degree, just that you had to pass the certification exams...

Feed at the trough? My wife is a High School Math teacher, and she works at the school from 7:00 AM till right at 5:00 PM... On top of working from home, once the kids are in bed to grade papers, to make up new lesson plans, to contact parents of the children she teaches to give them an update on what is going on... She loves teaching, she just wished the students loved learning(which I think is the parents fault)... Believe me, with the amount of stuff my wife has to put up with from students and parents and administration, she should be getting paid 6 figures, yet she has one of the most underpaid jobs for the amount of education that she has... She does it because she cares for the students, and cares about what they learn...

I am going to brag on my wife for a sec... She and a few other teachers found out that the majority of the basketball team couldn't afford shoes to play basketball... so they went together, spent their own money, to provide really good basketball shoes for a majority of the team...

How many people do you know that would take their own hard earned money and basically provide for children that are not fortunate to have parents that can afford a pair of shoes for them to play basketball? The same children that will cuss you out or even assault you for getting on to them for doing something that they shouldn't be in class...

for the record... my wife is not a member of NEA....

DB BB


----------



## Banjo (Dec 4, 2008)

Well...

I am out of here on this one, but will check in later.  I have to go teach at the KUMON center...

I teach there for a few hours in exchange for my children's supplemental math and reading lessons....  

The math program will carry my children through statistics, while the reading has them reading and summarizing legal briefs, all before completion of high school.

As a side, we are the minority there.  The KUMON center is mostly made up of Asian and Indian children....I wonder if that is why other cultures are so far ahead of Americans in Math and Science.....

See.....homeschoolers do get out in the community....and so do their moms.

Hold down the fort, Huntin' Dawg, based on your previous comments, you are certainly more than capable!


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 4, 2008)

There has to be a standard for education and what has to be taught...

Who is going to set it???????????

DB BB


----------



## PWalls (Dec 4, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> There has to be a standard for education and what has to be taught...
> 
> Who is going to set it???????????
> 
> DB BB



How many times does this have to be asked before it is answered?


----------



## gtparts (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntin' Dawg said:


> If you'd prefer to focus on general rules and trends, then perhaps we can discuss the trend among Ivy League institutions, to accept home-schoolers at a rate of up to TWO TIMES higher than applicants who were instructed  by the 'more qualified' government school educators.
> 
> http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,53959,00.html?iid=digg_share
> 
> ...



Welcome to the thread.

Read the article. My humble opinion of the article was that, while well written, one page of "fluff" or filler hardly constitutes a ground-swell movement on the part of higher education to accept homeschooled children. 

I did note the following:

One college specifically for the homeschooled.

Reference to Ivy League institutions which for some reason like to be trendy and cutting-edged, a pleasant departure from the stodgy, elitist days of legacy admissions.

Some excellent numbers for college-bound home schoolers, but no information on homeschooled children who declined to pursue higher education. 

Sizable paragraph on pre-entry programs to prep homeschoolers for college life; in particular, the children of a 55 yr. old retired lawyer. I think I smell dead presidents, maybe stacks of them.


Stanford accepted 26% of the 35 homeschooled applicants - almost double the overall acceptance rate. That's nine students. They probably accepted nine or more Samoans, too. I would also think that homeschoolers would be more focused on particular schools than the overall applicants who might be applying because of proximity or some other criteria, like athletic scholarships.

 In summary: Interesting, but lacking weight. Would prefer stats from more in-depth studies.

I hope you have read this complete thread and see that most here have nothing but the highest regard for those who can and do choose homeschooling for their children. At the same time,  most don't dog those who can not homeschool or simply choose not to, for their own personal reasons. And then, there is the issue of Christian teachers working in public schools, who do not deserve to be disparaged for not seeking jobs in Christian schools where jobs may or may not be available, or for not homeschooling their own children.(My children are 33 and 29, my wife teaches in the Gwinnett Co. P. S. system.)

Glad you got the early diagnosis on that lovely young lady in your avatar. Hope it's not contagious for the sake of the little Dawg.

Grace and peace to you and yours.


----------



## dawg2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Man!  Homeschoolers sure are touchy!



I think Banjo was homeschooled


----------



## dawg2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Why not just make a home educator take the certification tests that all State Certified Teachers have to take??? If you pass you can be a Home School Teacher, if you don't well study and try again..
> 
> 
> 
> ...




"GrammAr"























I am just playing with you....


----------



## gtparts (Dec 4, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Well...
> 
> I am out of here on this one, but will check in later.  I have to go teach at the KUMON center...
> 
> ...



 SEMI - HOMESCHOOLED


----------



## dawg2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> There has to be a standard for education and what has to be taught...
> 
> Who is going to set it???????????
> 
> DB BB





PWalls said:


> How many times does this have to be asked before it is answered?



I would love to hear the answer.....


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 4, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> "GrammAr"
> 
> I am just playing with you....


 



I guess I need to add Spelling to the list of things I don't need to teach....

funny thing is, I bet you were the only one to see that...

DB BB


----------



## dawg2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I guess I need to add Spelling to the list of things I don't need to teach....
> 
> funny thing is, I bet you were the only one to see that...
> 
> DB BB



Banjo didn't catch it


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 4, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> There has to be a standard for education and what has to be taught...
> 
> Who is going to set it???????????
> 
> DB BB





PWalls said:


> How many times does this have to be asked before it is answered?





dawg2 said:


> I would love to hear the answer.....




The Government.


But I'll answer for the libertarian....the market.  Let the market decide if they want to accept a homeschooler from an uneducated teacher. 

or they'll say it is the right of the parent to screw up the kid.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 4, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Banjo didn't catch it


----------



## dawg2 (Dec 4, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> The Government.
> 
> 
> But I'll answer for the libertarian....the market.  Let the market decide if they want to accept a homeschooler from an uneducated teacher.
> ...



OR......does the market drive the government for teaching standards?.....


----------



## gtparts (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntin' Dawg said:


> Fine with me.  When I pass, do I get to feed at the trough, or get the benefit of a property tax exemption, or at least a nifty T-Shirt?
> 
> Hey, maybe I can become a member of the NEA !!!
> http://www.nea.org/aboutnea/join.html
> ...



We could probably take up a collection to get you a GON t-shirt.

My wife is PAGE, not NEA. But, you are right on one point, NEA is all union. They are not the student's or parent's friend. PAGE is an association of professional educators. Totally different species.

Perhaps you haven't noticed , but approx. half of all Americans today want to be taken care of by the "guberment", with more signing up every day.


----------



## gtparts (Dec 4, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> There has to be a standard for education and what has to be taught...
> 
> Who is going to set it???????????
> 
> DB BB




If no one else will, employers will!


----------



## gtparts (Dec 4, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I guess I need to add Spelling to the list of things I don't need to teach....
> 
> funny thing is, I bet you were the only one to see that...
> 
> DB BB



I saw it.

 Just didn't want you to go "postal" on me.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 4, 2008)

gtparts said:


> We could probably take up a collection to get you a GON t-shirt.


 
I designed those t-shirts!!



gtparts said:


> My wife is PAGE, not NEA. But, you are right on one point, NEA is all union. They are not the student's or parent's friend. PAGE is an association of professional educators. Totally different species.


 
My wife is a member of PAGE too!



gtparts said:


> Perhaps you haven't noticed , but approx. half of all Americans today want to be taken care of by the "guberment", with more signing up every day.


 
Sure seems like it...

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 4, 2008)

gtparts said:


> I saw it.
> 
> Just didn't want you to go "postal" on me.


 

wouldn't go postal on you... just a few...

just kidding... I am the reason Spell Check was invented...

DB BB


----------



## PWalls (Dec 4, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I guess I need to add Spelling to the list of things I don't need to teach....
> 
> funny thing is, I bet you were the only one to see that...
> 
> DB BB



Actually, I couldn't look past the beam in my eye Brother.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 4, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Actually, I couldn't look past the beam in my eye Brother.


----------



## gtparts (Dec 4, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> wouldn't go postal on you... just a few...
> 
> just kidding... I am the reason Spell Check was invented...
> 
> DB BB



Glad spell check isn't shareware. I'd feel guilty not sending you a buck or two. I think I wore mine out. Can you send me another copy?


----------



## Huntin' Dawg (Dec 4, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> There has to be a standard for education and what has to be taught...
> 
> Who is going to set it???????????
> 
> DB BB



Yes, there does, and I respectfully believe that the determination of that standard is God's charge to parents.

I do not need a secular body with questionable motives to dictate to me the proper level and means of education for my child.

Nor, by the way, do I need State or local government to set standards and mandatory means of satisfaction for my child's other categories of need, be they physical, psychological, social, or otherwise.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntin' Dawg said:


> Yes, there does, and I respectfully believe that the determination of that standard is God's charge to parents.
> 
> I do not need a secular body with questionable motives to dictate to me the proper level and means of education for my child.
> 
> Nor, by the way, do I need State or local government to set standards and mandatory means of satisfaction for my child's other categories of need, be they physical, psychological, social, or otherwise.


 

And you trust all parents to do what their god tells them about teaching their children?

You may not need a standard to teach by, but a would venture to say that judging by the last election that a majority of america needs their government to tell them what is acceptable...

I wouldn't worry about someone like you or Banjo, because I feel as though you have your kids best interests at heart, but how about the islamist that lives down the street, or the wiccan, etc...

DB BB


----------



## Huntinfool (Dec 4, 2008)

Who revived this thread???  It was dead until....


Oh wait, sorry guys.  That was me.  My bad on that one!


----------



## PWalls (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntin' Dawg said:


> Yes, there does, and I respectfully believe that the determination of that standard is God's charge to parents.
> 
> I do not need a secular body with questionable motives to dictate to me the proper level and means of education for my child.
> 
> Nor, by the way, do I need State or local government to set standards and mandatory means of satisfaction for my child's other categories of need, be they physical, psychological, social, or otherwise.




That's the problem. Your determination of that education level is probably very good. I would venture to guess though that there is a lot of sorry parents out there whose determination is way below yours. A reasonable standard should be set and that standard should be held to all. I am sure you probably already exceed that standard. But, without one, then we could/would have homeschooled children with no more education than it takes to put new fries in the old grease at McDonalds. I am sure our public school system is putting those out in enough numbers already. But, that is not for lack of a systemic educational curriculum.


----------



## Huntinfool (Dec 4, 2008)

Ask kids in Japan, China or India if government education works for them.


It's not the type of education....it's the administrator.  That extends all the way from government schools to private schools to homeschools.

Inept administration (and that includes ALL types of schooling) results in poorly educated children.

Do not be so presumptuous as to assume that homeschool is exempt from that very disease.  It's not.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Who revived this thread??? It was dead until....
> 
> 
> Oh wait, sorry guys. That was me. My bad on that one!


 



you had to just 




DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 4, 2008)

pwalls said:


> that's the problem. Your determination of that education level is probably very good. I would venture to guess though that there is a lot of sorry parents out there whose determination is way below yours. A reasonable standard should be set and that standard should be held to all. I am sure you probably already exceed that standard. But, without one, then we could/would have homeschooled children with no more education than it takes to put new fries in the old grease at mcdonalds. I am sure our public school system is putting those out in enough numbers already. But, that is not for lack of a systemic educational curriculum.


 


huntinfool said:


> ask kids in japan, china or india if government education works for them.
> 
> 
> It's not the type of education....it's the administrator. That extends all the way from government schools to private schools to homeschools.
> ...


 

*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## Huntin' Dawg (Dec 4, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Perhaps you haven't noticed , but approx. half of all Americans today want to be taken care of by the "guberment", with more signing up every day.



Not a difficult trend to forecast, given the constant barrage of propaganda being disseminated in an effort to convince Joe Sixpack that he cannot meet his own needs, and must instead have an expansion of "guberment" to do it for him. . .

Perhaps  nowhere is this propaganda battle more easily seen than in the government school front, where an inherently flawed and failing system has resorting to instilling a fear in parents that they cannot be trusted with their own child's education, and must therefore remain in the failed system.  

This tactic can, however, also be found in many other areas, such as personal finance (after raiding the SS trust fund and charting a course of failure for that program, government nevertheless still attempts to convince us that we cannot be trusted to provide for our own retirement), and personal safety (get that dangerous gun out of your home before you kill someone, and let the professionals handle your personal safety ).

What is particularly concerning about this thread is that it deals with the next front, i.e., allowing the "half" that you reference in your post to force the other "half" to join them on the teat of governmental dependance, against their fervent wish or desire.

That, my friend, is a frightful prospect IMHO.  

It is one thing for you to turn your own life, decision making and freedoms over to the State.  

It is entirely another thing for you to surrender mine.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntin' Dawg said:


> Not a difficult trend to forecast, given the constant barrage of propaganda being disseminated in an effort to convince Joe Sixpack that he cannot meet his own needs, and must instead have an expansion of "guberment" to do it for him. . .
> 
> Perhaps nowhere is this propaganda battle more easily seen than in the government school front, where an inherently flawed and failing system has resorting to instilling a fear in parents that they cannot be trusted with their own child's education, and must therefore remain in the failed system.
> 
> ...


 
So what standard does your child have to meet right now to be Homeschooled?

DB BB


----------



## Huntin' Dawg (Dec 4, 2008)

PWalls said:


> That's the problem. Your determination of that education level is probably very good. I would venture to guess though that there is a lot of sorry parents out there whose determination is way below yours. A reasonable standard should be set and that standard should be held to all. I am sure you probably already exceed that standard. But, without one, then we could/would have homeschooled children with no more education than it takes to put new fries in the old grease at McDonalds. I am sure our public school system is putting those out in enough numbers already. But, that is not for lack of a systemic educational curriculum.



I understand your point, but I don't think that it's the Future Fry-Men of America who are opting out of the government school system in favor of homeschooling ---  In fact, the opt-outs are kids whose parents don't want them to be taught under a "lowest common denominator" methodology, in a classroom with our future fry man, or the future gang-banger, or the future lifetime member of our welfare rolls.

A lot of it comes down to parents.

Homeschooling parents have each demonstrated that they are so invested in their child that they are prepared to make some pretty remarkable sacrifices in order to insure the best education for their son or daughter.  

I don't think that we need to worry about those folks, or their kids.

It's the ones who make no sacrifice or investment in their kids, and instead drop them in the lap of a government caretaker, that should be a point of societal concern and debate, IMHO.


----------



## Huntin' Dawg (Dec 4, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> So what standard does your child have to meet right now to be Homeschooled?
> 
> DB BB



Not sure what you're asking.  If you are asking what our standard of education is, I would say:

_To be the very best that they can be, as supervised by the two people who know our children's abilities and limitations far better than any other person_.

If you are asking what external oversight we have accommodated or consulted, the answer is "none."  Nor, by the way, did I comply with any governmental oversight in the conception of these same children.  

Not to derail the thread, but I couldn't help noticing that many of the same folks who are participating in this thread (and giving the beat-down to homeschooling) are also pondering in another thread the question of why, after turning children over for eight hours per day to an increasingly godless and secular institution, we find those same children godless at the end of the process. . . 

To paraphrase SNL's _Church Lady_, "Gee, I don't know, could it be . . . . _*Godless Schooling*_????"


----------



## Banjo (Dec 4, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> I think Banjo was homeschooled




I wish!


----------



## Banjo (Dec 4, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Banjo didn't catch it



Maybe I did catch it....but didn't point it out...


----------



## Banjo (Dec 4, 2008)

O.k....I got home and found an article on godless education in my inbox.  I have pasted some of the quotes below.  

It is from www.covenantnews.com.  The original article is found at www.theamericanview.com.

“And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.” — Ephesians 6:4.

To put a child through 15,000 hours of Godless, Christless, Holy Spiritless, no-Bible, non-Christian “education” (K through 12) is sin and ignores what has been said by many of the greatest teachers of the Reformed faith. A Godless “education” is not bringing children up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Such an “education” is not “for the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31) — or which we are commanded to do everything.

John Calvin, commenting on Ephesians 6:4, says: “It is not the will of God that parents shall … corrupt their children. Let their conduct towards their children be … to guide them in the fear of the Lord, and correct them also when they go astray.” But non-Christian “education” does precisely this. It corrupts children and leads them astray.

Charles Hodge:  “This whole process of education is to be religious, and not only religious, but Christian…. And as Christianity is the only true religion, and God in Christ the only true God, the only possible means of profitable education is the nurture and admonition of the Lord.”

Robert Dabney:  “Add now the third fact, that every man is born in a state of alienation from God; that practical enmity and atheism are the natural outgrowth of this disposition; that the only remedy for this natural disease of man’s spirit is gospel truth. The comparison of these truths will make it perfectly plain that non-Christian training is but literally an anti-Christian training” (emphasis his).

J. Gresham Machen, in his “Education, Christianity, and the State” (Trinity Foundation, 1987), making an important distinction between church members and real Bible-believing Christians, writes: “The true hope of any people lies in a kind of education in which learning and piety go hand-in- hand. Christianity, we believe, is founded upon a body of facts; it is, therefore, a thing that must be taught; and it should be taught in Christian schools…. Character-building, as practiced in our public schools, may well prove to be character-destruction. I can see little consistency in a type of Christian activity which preaches the gospel on street corners and at the ends of the earth, but neglects the children of the covenant by abandoning them to a cold and unbelieving secularism…. The Christian life cannot be lived on the basis of non-Christian thought. Hence, the necessity of the Christian school.”

Cornelius Van Til:  “Non-Christian education puts the child in a vacuum…. The result is that child dies. Christian education alone really nurtures personality because it alone gives the child air and food…. Modern educational philosophy gruesomely insults our God and our Christ. How, then, do you expect to build anything positively Christian or theistic upon a foundation which is the negation of Christianity and the theism?…. No teaching of any sort is possible except in Christian schools.”

In 1839, Samuel Miller, Archibald Alexander, Charles Hodge, J. Addison Alexander, and James Carnahan were, as a committee, charged with investigating the status of the Christian education of young people in the Presbyterian Church. They concluded, in part: “The religious instruction of our youth, instead of becoming more ample and faithful… has undoubtedly declined, both as to extent and identity. The children of church members are, in a multitude of cases, totally neglected and left to ignorance and heathenism…. And it is painful to recollect that, amidst this unhappy delinquency, the judicatories of our church have in great measure slumbered over this evil, and have taken no systematic or efficient order for the removal of it. The mischiefs flowing from this neglect of early religious instruction are numberless and deplorable.”

That was 1839. Today the situation is even worse and more evil. I pray that all Christian parents will wake up re: the education issue.


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## crackerdave (Dec 4, 2008)

Like God said:Train up a child in the way he should go.......


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 5, 2008)

Huntin' Dawg said:


> Not sure what you're asking. If you are asking what our standard of education is, I would say:
> 
> _To be the very best that they can be, as supervised by the two people who know our children's abilities and limitations far better than any other person_.
> 
> If you are asking what external oversight we have accommodated or consulted, the answer is "none." Nor, by the way, did I comply with any governmental oversight in the conception of these same children.


 
There are certain things you have to do when you homeschool your child... here is a list I found...

1. Parent or guardian must annually submit to the superintendent of the local school district a Declaration of Intent to Utilize a Home Study Program by September 1 or within 30 days after a program is established. The local school superintendent will provide a form upon request for this purpose to be returned to that office.

2. The declaration must include the names and ages of the students, the address where the program is located, and the dates of the school year.

3. Parents or guardians may teach only their own children in the home study program provided the teaching parent or guardian possesses at least a high school diploma or a general educational development (GED) equivalency diploma, but the parents or guardians may employ a tutor who holds at least a high school diploma or a general education diploma to teach such children.

4. The home study program must include, but is not limited to, instruction in reading, language arts, mathematics, social studies, and science.

5. The school year must include the equivalent of 180 days of at least 4-1/2 hours of instruction per day unless the child is physically unable to comply with this requirement.

6. Monthly attendance reports must be sent to the local superintendent at the end of each month. The local school superintendent will, upon request, provide the reporting forms.

7. Students in home study programs shall be subject to an appropriate nationally standardized testing program administered in consultation with a person trained in the administration and interpretation of norm referenced tests. The student must be evaluated at least every three years beginning at the end of the third grade. Records of such tests shall be retained.

8. The instructor shall write an annual progress assessment report in each required subject area for each student. These reports shall be retained for at least three years.

For additional information contact the local school superintendent, visiting teacher, attendance officer, or other designee. If further information is needed, contact the Georgia Department of Education at (404) 656-2800 or (800) 311-3627.



Huntin' Dawg said:


> Not to derail the thread, but I couldn't help noticing that many of the same folks who are participating in this thread (and giving the beat-down to homeschooling) are also pondering in another thread the question of why, after turning children over for eight hours per day to an increasingly godless and secular institution, we find those same children godless at the end of the process. . .
> 
> To paraphrase SNL's _Church Lady_, "Gee, I don't know, could it be . . . . _*Godless Schooling*_????"


 
I am not giving the beat down to Homeschooling... I applaud anyone for doing it! My sister-in-law is homeschooling 4 right now... I think that a lot you have passed judgement on a public school system that may not be as bad as you think it is... I agree there are some teachers and public schools that couldn't careless what they teach, but there are some teachers and public schools that do care about the children, and do not believe in a Godless school system... Like I said before, my wife is a public high school math teacher, so I get first hand knowledge of what is going on in the local school....



Banjo said:


> O.k....I got home and found an article on godless education in my inbox. I have pasted some of the quotes below.
> 
> It is from www.covenantnews.com. The original article is found at www.theamericanview.com.
> 
> ...


 
It is not just the fact that in the majority of public schools that God has been kicked out, but the fact that supposed good Christian parents are not really that, they don't teach their kids where the public school system fails... They just figure, they are getting all they need from the public school... a childs education doesn't stop at school and any parent that thinks so is doing a great disservice to their child...

My 11 and 7 year old girls go to public school, they are both straight A students, and they both are exceeding their reading level by at least a grade level... How do I know this? Because I don't rely on the public school to teach my child, I also teach my child. The majority of parents today that send their children to public school don't care enough about there children to also teach them at home, they just assume that their child is learning what they need to...

It doesn't matter if you are homeschooling or if you are sending your child to public school... Education starts with the parents, if the parents are not willing to put in the time to make sure their child is learning the appropiate stuff then they shouldn't be suprized about how their child turns out...

Just my opinion...

DB BB


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## rjcruiser (Dec 5, 2008)

Huntin' Dawg said:


> Not to derail the thread, but I couldn't help noticing that many of the same folks who are participating in this thread (and giving the beat-down to homeschooling) are also pondering in another thread the question of why, after turning children over for eight hours per day to an increasingly godless and secular institution, we find those same children godless at the end of the process. . .



I don't see many in here giving the "beat-down."  I think you and Banjo have done more to "beat-down" the government school system than the other way around.



Banjo said:


> To put a child through 15,000 hours of Godless, Christless, Holy Spiritless, no-Bible, non-Christian “education” (K through 12) is sin



You lost me on this sentence.  Didn't need to read the rest of the article because I knew it was garbage.  This is legalism at its finest and as you let it creep into your life, it begins to take over.  

Sure...homeschooling might be a better option for some.  However, public schools or even private schools may be better for others.  

Also, there was a kid in my class in high school that got a 1600 (perfect score, didn't miss a single question) on the SAT.  He went to Public School his entire life.  Again, there are specific instances of extremes in both sides of the argument.  And in any choice of schooling, if the parent is not involved, the child's education will be lacking.


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## Banjo (Dec 6, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I don't see many in here giving the "beat-down."  I think you and Banjo have done more to "beat-down" the government school system than the other way around.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




For the record, I didn't write that; I copied and pasted.  You should have read the rest....

Legalism is when you add to God's Word your OWN standard.  God has clearly commanded us to bring our children up in the fear and admonition of the Lord.  Godless education does not do this...rather it hinders it.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 6, 2008)

Banjo said:


> For the record, I didn't write that; I copied and pasted.  You should have read the rest....
> 
> Legalism is when you add to God's Word your OWN standard.  God has clearly commanded us to bring our children up in the fear and admonition of the Lord.  Godless education does not do this...rather it hinders it.



How is saying "sending your kid to public school is a sin" not adding to God's Word your own standard?

I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says that.  I'd say it is about on the same level as saying drinking alcohol is a sin.  Sure...both can lead to sin and be a negative influence, but in and of itself, it isn't a sin.  I've never been homeschooled, so maybe I'm a little biased, but I went to private Christian school k-8 and then went to the local public HS.  I think I got a fine education at the Public School.  I took advantage of the honors/AP classes and it prepared me very well for life/college.  Were there temptations and influences that I had there that I wouldn't have had if I was homeschooled?  Sure.  But was I sinning or were my parents in sin for sending me there?  Of course not.

I have to say, I probably grew more as a Christian through some of the experiences I had at Public Highschool than I did in Christian education before that.  Gave me a place to actually live out my testimony for Christ.  

So tell me Banjo, were my parents sinning against God for sending me to Public School?  Is DB BB in sin for sending his kids to public school?


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## gtparts (Dec 6, 2008)

Huntin' Dawg said:


> It is one thing for you to turn your own life, decision making and freedoms over to the State.
> 
> It is entirely another thing for you to surrender mine.





Pardon me for laughing but I have nothing, I repeat, NOTHING against home schooling. And I am not surrendering anything of yours (or mine for that matter).

I applaud those who can and do boldly and sacrificially make the decision to homeschool.

 My problem, if you would be so kind as to check all my posts on this subject,  is that Banjo has openly painted public schools as godless institutions, and in so doing she has cast derision on the teachers, even Christian teachers (as my wife is), for not being more Christ-committed by teaching in Christian schools exclusively or homeschooling (my children are 33 and 29 years old).
 Every day she teaches is a testimony of Jesus' love and kindness to many unsaved children. Sometimes they ask questions and she can respond with the truth of the Gospel without violating court rulings. She and 10s of thousands of teachers daily enter their mission field that Banjo wants them to forsake.

 I also defend the parents, who for many legitimate reasons can not homeschool. Many are doing the best they can for their children and do not deserve the criticism they receive for not choosing something which for them is not an option.

I also defend the right of the children to receive an education, Christian or secular; public, private and homeschool.

A perfect system? No. But neither is private school or homeschool. 

Peace.


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## Banjo (Dec 6, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> How is saying "sending your kid to public school is a sin" not adding to God's Word your own standard?
> 
> I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says that.  I'd say it is about on the same level as saying drinking alcohol is a sin.  Sure...both can lead to sin and be a negative influence, but in and of itself, it isn't a sin.  I've never been homeschooled, so maybe I'm a little biased, but I went to private Christian school k-8 and then went to the local public HS.  I think I got a fine education at the Public School.  I took advantage of the honors/AP classes and it prepared me very well for life/college.  Were there temptations and influences that I had there that I wouldn't have had if I was homeschooled?  Sure.  But was I sinning or were my parents in sin for sending me there?  Of course not.
> 
> ...



I will say this....I believe that I would be sinning if I sent my children to a school that left Christ out of the curriculum. 

I will stand before the Lord one day and answer for everything I have done.  I just want to make sure that as far as my Christian duty as a mother, I have promoted Godliness in them.  The amount of time I spend with them, and the things that I teach them will have a huge impact on their Christian walk.


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## crackerdave (Dec 6, 2008)

Banjo said:


> I will say this....I believe that I would be sinning if I sent my children to a school that left Christ out of the curriculum.
> 
> I will stand before the Lord one day and answer for everything I have done.  I just want to make sure that as far as my Christian duty as a mother, I have promoted Godliness in them.  The amount of time I spend with them, and the things that I teach them will have a huge impact on their Christian walk.



You and your kids are very well-blessed that you have the time and knowledge for home schooling.Most of us have to separate church and school.


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## gtparts (Dec 6, 2008)

Banjo said:


> o.k....I got home and found an article on godless education in my inbox.  I have pasted some of the quotes below.
> 
> It is from www.covenantnews.com.  The original article is found at www.theamericanview.com.
> 
> ...



Looks like the official findings are entirely about the quality of Christian education provided by the Presbyterian Church. What does this have to do with homeschooling or public schools? Not only that , but this committee lays the problem of that day at the feet of the church judiciary, the Presbyterian law court, whatever that is.

Whatever the exact nature of its failings, 170 years later the Presbyterian Church is still around and probably doing no better or worse at early religious education than back then.

Grace and peace to you and yours.


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## gtparts (Dec 6, 2008)

Banjo said:


> For the record, I didn't write that; I copied and pasted.  You should have read the rest....
> 
> Legalism is when you add to God's Word your OWN standard.  God has clearly commanded us to bring our children up in the fear and admonition of the Lord.  Godless education does not do this...rather it hinders it.


You sound like you think public schools have failed at  bringing our children up in the fear and admonition of the Lord. It is not the P.S's responsibility to provide Christian education. God gave the responsibility of bringing our children up in the fear and admonition of the Lord to the parents. Don't get upset with the P.S.,  up on  the parents.


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## Israel (Dec 7, 2008)

Maybe we take too many things for granted...even as far as schooling. Who decided public schools are necessary? I think we make assumptions based on traditions and expediency without ever consulting the Lord.


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