# We have the ONLY way...



## GeauxLSU (Sep 9, 2005)

Do you know of any denominations that teaches that you MUST believe in THEIR specific denomination teachings to get to heaven?  
I'm asking specifically about doctrine, not individuals.  I've run across several individuals who think their church is THE ONLY CORRECT way (I suppose most church's have those folks) but when studying doctrine or asking church officials they very clearly steer away from claiming to hold the monopoly on admission.   Just wondering since I am not as denominationally astute as some.


----------



## Mechanicaldawg (Sep 9, 2005)

The only requirement with Baptist (SBC) is that you accept Christ as your Savior and as the true Son of God.

However, I have had many people that have set very near to me in the pews tell me that if I used a Bible that was not the same as theirs or if folks weren't submerged, or if the grape juice was actually wine.................................

Now, if your question was, "Is there more requirements than accepting Christ to qualify for membership in the local church?" then the answer would be yes.

However, to get into Heaven, "Christ is THE answer!"


----------



## No. GA. Mt. Man (Sep 9, 2005)

Joh:3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
There won't be demonations in Heaven just sinners saved by grace.


----------



## GeauxLSU (Sep 9, 2005)

Jeff Young said:
			
		

> The only requirement with Baptist (SBC) is that you accept Christ as your Savior and as the true Son of God.
> 
> However, I have had many people that have set very near to me in the pews tell me that if I used a Bible that was not the same as theirs or if folks weren't submerged, or if the grape juice was actually wine.................................
> 
> ...


That is EXACTLY what I'm asking.  
Thanks.


----------



## Randy (Sep 9, 2005)

If I said I believe that man developed from monkeys I can still go to heaven?


----------



## PWalls (Sep 9, 2005)

I believe that the word "Christian" in its generic form requires a belief in Jesus as the son of God and an acceptance of Him as your Saviour that necessitates and brings about a life-changing attitude. Die to the old self and are born again into the new self. That is the core of Christianity.

Within Christianity, there are denominations that are formed because of different interpretations of those beliefs above. Calvinists versus Armenians is the prime example. Armenians are your typical Baptist and Methodist denominations that believe in an acceptance of Jesus by man. Calvinists believe in a pre-destination of certain "elect" that are the only ones that benefit from the sacrifice of Jesus.

But then, you have Calvanists, Hyper-Calvanists, HardShell Baptists, Primitive Baptists, etc in one group. You also have Southern Baptist, Fundamentalist Baptist, Independant Baptist, etc. You also have Catholic and Lutheran. You have Methodist and Presbyterian. You have myriad of Christian denominations. Also, please forgive me if I have offended anyone above by lumping their denomination in with another or if I left it out.


----------



## PWalls (Sep 9, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> If I said I believe that man developed from monkeys I can still go to heaven?



You can be Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer until you are 99 years old and on your deathbed accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, confess your sins, be truly born again and go to heaven.


----------



## Randy (Sep 9, 2005)

PWalls said:
			
		

> You can be Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer until you are 99 years old and on your deathbed accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, confess your sins, be truly born again and go to heaven.


I ahve already accepted Christ.  But can I go to Heaven if I believe that man developed from monkeys.


----------



## Branchminnow (Sep 9, 2005)

I am in agreement with Jeff,and NGMM and Pwalls doesnt matter to me how you beleive as long as you got the salvation that God offers all people.


----------



## PWalls (Sep 9, 2005)

I do not believe that you can "lose" your salvation or have it "taken" from you.

I believe that the only thing you can affect is your rewards or glory in Heaven when you get there. How you live your life and what you do on this earth will have to be given in account before God one day. He will look at you and everything will be revealed and there won't be any nay-saying or back-peddling. The one great thing that I give thanks for is that Jesus, our Lord and Saviour, will be standing beside us with Hid hand on our shoulder telling our Father that we still get to go in.


----------



## PWalls (Sep 9, 2005)

Here it is Randy on what I was referring to above on the book and the Book.

Re 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


The dead are holding their individual books that is an account of their lives. We are judged by those little books. However, the book of life and whether our name is in it or not determins if we go to heaven.

Everyone is judged. That judgement determins how high you are in heaven and how low in (you know where). The book of life determins which place you go.

Hope that makes sense.


----------



## one_shot_no_mor (Sep 10, 2005)

*Intercession...*



			
				PWalls said:
			
		

> I do not believe that you can "lose" your salvation or have it "taken" from you.
> 
> I believe that the only thing you can affect is your rewards or glory in Heaven when you get there. How you live your life and what you do on this earth will have to be given in account before God one day. He will look at you and everything will be revealed and there won't be any nay-saying or back-peddling. The one great thing that I give thanks for is that Jesus, our Lord and Saviour, will be standing beside us with His hand on our shoulder telling our Father that we still get to go in.



I share your opinion that you can't "lose" or have it "taken"...

I believe, however, that God's gift of free will that he gave mankind at Creation makes us weak enough to "give it back" if we succomb to Satan.  I believe that Judas sacrificed his salvation...it wasn't "taken", but Jesus said "woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man!"I believe that Judas, though remorseful, sacrificed the Glory of God through his weakness.  

I, like you, thank God that Jesus will be there to intercede on my behalf come Judgement Day and ALL THINGS will be revealed.  We won't have to wonder if 'ole Judas is there or not...  

Here's another question  

Can someone believe that God created the Heavens and the Earth and MAN in his own image and STILL believe we evolved from monkeys?


----------



## labman (Sep 10, 2005)

one_shot_no_mor said:
			
		

> Here's another question
> 
> Can someone believe that God created the Heavens and the Earth and MAN in his own image and STILL believe we evolved from monkeys?


That is exactly what I was going to ask. If you truely believe in god and the bible then how can you think your great, great grand parents were monkeys? Sounds rediculous to me! Nowhere in our family tree does it show where my kin folks were monkeys I don't know about y'all.


----------



## Keith48 (Sep 10, 2005)

The United Pentecostal Church (UPC - a cult) says that if you were not baptised in Jesus' name ONLY or do not speak in tongues, you will go to big toebig toebig toebig toe.


----------



## Flash (Sep 11, 2005)

one_shot_no_mor said:
			
		

> I believe that Judas sacrificed his salvation...it wasn't "taken", but Jesus said "woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man!"I believe that Judas, though remorseful, sacrificed the Glory of God through his weakness.



 Are you saying Judas was born again but then lost his salvation or it was right there for the taking but he lost out.


----------



## Timberman (Sep 11, 2005)

> Nowhere in our family tree does it show where my kin folks were monkeys I don't know about y'all.



Does your family tree go back 15 million years?

Nobodies answered Randy's question. Won't somebody please??

It has been my experience that all religions practice exclusivity...it's either us or down below.


----------



## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 11, 2005)

> Die to the old self and are born again into the new self. That is the core of Christianity.



This is the essence of what is meant by being "born again".  I truely believe if one claims to be "born again" then there should easily be seen a change in that person's lifestyle.  I know it's not my place to make a judgement, but if there is no change such as this then that person's salvation should be questioned.  How can one be indwelt with the Holy spirit and not change?


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 11, 2005)

The change may not be apparent outwardly, is pa and ma though you to live decently.


----------



## one_shot_no_mor (Sep 11, 2005)

*I'll give my opinion...*



			
				Randy said:
			
		

> If I said I believe that man developed from monkeys I can still go to heaven?



This isn't necessarily an answer, just my opinion...  

You can "Say" anything you want to and still go to Heaven.  

Your salvation (or lack thereof) is a PERSONAL, unspoken, relationship with God through Jesus Christ.  This relationship should be obvious to the most casual observer through your daily actions, however, NO ONE can judge you or your salvation except the FATHER.  

BELIEVING something doesn't make it true.  One's "beliefs" can't be argued nor disproved (until JUDEGEMENT DAY!   ).  Also, "believing" isn't the same as "saved".  Even Satan "believed" in GOD!...


----------



## Headshot (Sep 11, 2005)

What church did the saved thief on the cross belong to? 

Was he baptized?  

Did he tithe?

St. Luke 23:40-43 and Ephesians 2:8-10


----------



## one_shot_no_mor (Sep 11, 2005)

*And another thing...*

Even though we've gone off in several different directions, I don't think anyone has answered the original question that GEAUX asked in this thread...  

Is there any DENOMINATIONAL DOCTRINE that specifically states that that DOCTRINE must be followed in order to gain access to Heaven?

Is it UPC DOCTRINE or just some of the Members' philosophy?  

I believe that ALL Christian Denominations should agree that the ONLY WAY to gain entry into Heaven is through a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ...that is clearly stated in several locations in the Bible.

Flash, I'm not avoiding your question, it's just a hard one to answer.  The 3 years of Jesus' actual "ministry" was sort of a "grey zone"..."The Law" (through the High Priest) was still the only way for Jews to get forgiveness for sins, God was personified in Jesus and hence could give "direct" forgiveness to anyone, and the Prophesy (through Jesus' crucifixtion and resurrection) had not yet been fulfilled so "salvation" as we know it today did not yet exist.  I guess the best answer to your question is "both".  Judas' salvation was assured as a Disciple and his PERSONAL relationship with Jesus.  He threw that away.  A DIRECT, personal relationship with the Holy Spirit was "within his grasp" in the next three days.  He threw that away as well...

  NOT a scholar, just opinionated...


----------



## Todd E (Sep 11, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> If I said I believe that man developed from monkeys I can still go to heaven?



If one believes that they are derived from monkeys, that belief goes strictly against God's Word. Upon a TRUE SALVATION EXPERIENCE, one is indwelled with the Holy Spirit. God does not contradict Himself. If a person's belief goes strictly against God's Word, their salvation is in question. The Holy Spirit reveals God's Truth to us through God's Word. Why would a Believer refute The Truth?

Of course a question that can be asked of anyone's professed acceptance is.............is their _life_ bearing fruit? Fruit of what?........The Holy Spirit.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 11, 2005)

Personally, I believe that someone can believe that we evolved from monkeys and still be saved.   The simple requirement of salvation was Romans 10:9,10.   "Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead...".   That is very simple...and I thank God that it is that simple.     

Christianity, and I believe all other major religions, are exclusive.   But, within Christianity I don't believe there is denominational 'exclusivity'.   I'm Pentecostal, but I know that Baptists, Church of Gods, and yes, even Catholics are saved.  (No offense Phil  LOL)   As long as they have been 'born again', and anyone who has been born again can tell you the day and the time.    

Bandy


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 11, 2005)

Let me add...   If there is another way to eternal life other than through Jesus, then Jesus was a liar.   

Bandy


----------



## Mechanicaldawg (Sep 12, 2005)

Randy,

Salvation comes with NO strings. It is a gift that only requires that you accept it of your own free will.


----------



## Randy (Sep 12, 2005)

one_shot_no_mor said:
			
		

> Here's another question
> 
> Can someone believe that God created the Heavens and the Earth and MAN in his own image and STILL believe we evolved from monkeys?



I believe that is is possible.

Here is another question off topic!

Do you believe the earth is only 6000 years old?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 12, 2005)

I'm not sure how old the earth is....but I do believe that there is a lot of young earth evidence.    Degrading magnetic field....moon distance... earth's distance from the sun...etc.   That being said I don't believe it matter if someone believes that the earth is billions of years old or only thousands....  "Believe in your heart, confess with your mouth" leaves out a lot of science.  (Thank God!)

Bandy


----------



## Branchminnow (Sep 12, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> I believe that is is possible.
> 
> Here is another question off topic!
> 
> Do you believe the earth is only 6000 years old?


Man will never know.


----------



## No. GA. Mt. Man (Sep 12, 2005)

I KNOW I have been saved and there is nothing anyone can say to change that.Jesus said you must be born again if you have been truely born again you WILL go to heaven.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 12, 2005)

I like the fact that the Lord has not made it necessary for someone to have a certain level of intelligence, or have so much money, to qualify for salvation.   Nor does He pile on a bunch of rules after we are saved.     

This is a list of rules that they apostles gave new gentile converts....

Acts 15:20 - But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Not much about money...or learning.....

Bandy


----------



## Randy (Sep 12, 2005)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> That being said I don't believe it matter if someone believes that the earth is billions of years old or only thousands....  "Believe in your heart, confess with your mouth" leaves out a lot of science.  (Thank God!)
> 
> Bandy



But it does.  If you take the Bible literal and you go by the Bible's time scale and when God made the heavens and earth and everything else in 7 days then the earth is only about 6000 years old.

But my point here really is that all of that does not matter.  Only one thing matters.  Are you saved?  The other parts of the Bible are good to live by but if you try to take everything literally or you interpret it as you wish then you start treading water either way!

Too many get hung up  or hung out trying to defend either their literal or interpretations of the Bible and miss the one thing that matters.


----------



## Derek (Sep 12, 2005)

Denominations are man-made.  They'll be none of that in heaven.  All churches IMO should be non-denominational.  We are all God's children.  We should be joining together to win souls for Christ.  That is our job.

Randy??????,

You scare me sometimes with your comments....there is no possible way you can believe and accept Jesus as your savior and also think that we come from monkeys.  That's just nuts, if you are serious.


----------



## Randy (Sep 12, 2005)

Derek said:
			
		

> Randy??????,
> 
> You scare me sometimes with your comments....there is no possible way you can believe and accept Jesus as your savior and also think that we come from monkeys.  That's just nuts, if you are serious.



Your comment scares me.  You said exactly what many say.  I have acceted Jesus as my savior and quite frankly that is all that matters.  But you went on to say I can't if I believe we came from monkeys.  So the fact that I accept Jesus is not all there is to getting to Heaven.  I have to agree with you that we did not come from monkeys too?  See that's what I was talking about.  Most everybody agreed that there was only one way to Heaven now you tell me there are other things that can keep me out!

On a personal note:  Derek sorry you had to be the one to step in it!


----------



## Derek (Sep 12, 2005)

Thought I would chime in since we are on the same level, height that is   

You are saying that for arguement purposes only.  Anybody can say that they have accepted Jesus (which is the only requirement to get into heaven), but only you and Jesus know that you are taking that as serious as you should.  Saying it and doing it are two different things.  I was simply stating that it is not possible for someone who believes in Jesus/God to also believe that we come from monkeys.  

I know in my heart that I have a place reserved for me in heaven and it's my job to try and bring as many as I can with me.


----------



## PWalls (Sep 12, 2005)

I believe I had mentioned this before or maybe in another thread, but all you have to do is accept Jesus in your heart and have a true repentance to be saved and go to Heaven.

After that, it is up to each of us on our own to establish what we believe in and what we don't. If you have the indwelling Christ and Holy Spirit within, you will be led to certain beliefs. My personal belief is that you will be led to what the Bible teaches, literally.

If you have a true salvation, you will go to Heaven. Once you are in front of God, you will have your judgement time. While you are assured of your entry in Heaven, your place or station within it is going to be determined by your life and the account you have to give.

My personal faith and belief is that if you do not take the Bible literally and openly in your heart, that every word is inspired by God and is infallible and irrefutable, then you are jeapordizing your rewards in Heaven. That is my belief. I believe that if I can take the Bible literally for my salvation, then I need to take it literally for everything else as well. Or, I try to at least and fail most of the time.

So, Randy, to answer your question. Yes, a person will go to Heaven when they truly repent and accept Jesus whether they believe in old-Earth or new-Earth theory.


----------



## Randy (Sep 12, 2005)

Derek said:
			
		

> I was simply stating that it is not possible for someone who believes in Jesus/God to also believe that we come from monkeys.



I told you I believe in Jesus/God and believe that it is possible that we developed from monkeys.  So your statement that it is not possible is flawed!  I am a living breathing example of a person that believes in Jesus/God and also believe that it is possible that we developed from monkeys.  I have no proof that we did or did not and neither do you!  There is a lot of scientific evidence that we did adn yes there are some flaws in it.  All you can point to is FAITH!


----------



## PWalls (Sep 12, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> I told you I believe in Jesus/God and believe that it is possible that we developed from monkeys.  So your statement that it is not possible is flawed!  I am a living breathing example of a person that believes in Jesus/God and also believe that it is possible that we developed from monkeys.  I have no proof that we did or did not and neither do you!  There is a lot of scientific evidence that we did adn yes there are some flaws in it.  All you can point to is FAITH!



Randy,

No person can know if another person is saved or not. I tend to ask a few questions myself and try to make a judgement based on observation and those answered questions. I assure you that none of those questions revolve around evolution. Only God can know if you are truly saved and going to Heaven. Neither Derek or I or your pastor can know if you are truly saved.

Like I said earlier, I believe in what the Bible tells me. That is my personal belief and faith. You had to have FAITH in Jesus for your salvation. I would ask that you try and have that same faith in the rest of the Bible as well. That is only a suggestion from a fellow Christian offered in peace and love.


----------



## Vernon Holt (Sep 12, 2005)

*The Only Way*



			
				BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> *"Personally, I believe that someone can believe that we evolved from monkeys and still be saved*." Bandy


 
I respectively believe the very opposite.  My belief is based purely on what scripture teaches.  Creation of man was the crowning act of God in the creation account.  Scripture states that man was created in the image of God.  Further, that man was created just a little below the Angels.  Newly created man was assigned the special role of having dominion over all of Gods creation.

The God of creation was and is the Triune God, composed of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.  All three have special roles, but are co-equal in nature.

Scripture makes it clear in Colossians 1:16-17 - "_*For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created by Him and for Him.  *And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
_
_John 1:1-3 states, "In the beginning was the Word (Jesus Christ), and the word was with God, and the word was God.  He was with God in the beginning.  *Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made".*_

God the Son (Jesus Christ) therefore was active in the creation of all things, including of course man.

Question: If one believes in Jesus Christ, who was in the beginning, and who was an agent in the creation of man, how could you be one of his and believe that man evolved from some lesser life??

I believe that man is the handiwork of a Triune God.  To believe otherwise is in clear contradiction to the Holy Bible.  If our belief conflicts with basic teachings of God's Word, then salvation is open to question.


----------



## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 12, 2005)

Well put Mr. Vernon.

If one doesn't believe the beginning, then doubt must be cast on the middle and the end.

It does take faith because there is so much about God that we do not understand.

In the book of James, it speaks of those who "believe" and puts it into perspective.  It says something like "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

It's not enough to just believe that God exists, Satan believes God exists, Satan knows God.  But Satan (and the demons) do not have a loving covenant relationship with Jesus Christ.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 12, 2005)

Vernon,

I'd be a fool to believe that we evolved from monkeys, or anything, especially since no one has ever witnessed genetic information being ADDED to the genetic code of any organism.    I believe that man was created by God...period.  A god who uses evolution is not discernable from no god at all.  

I believe that someone who has been taught that we evolved, but then comes to a saving faith in Jesus, will be saved, even if they hang on to the notion that God used evolution.   In time, maybe they will learn the truth.

Bandy


----------



## GeauxLSU (Sep 12, 2005)

one_shot_no_mor said:
			
		

> Even though we've gone off in several different directions, I don't think anyone has answered the original question that GEAUX asked in this thread...
> 
> Is there any DENOMINATIONAL DOCTRINE that specifically states that that DOCTRINE must be followed in order to gain access to Heaven?


Thanks for the effort 1shot, but it appears to be a lost cause....


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 12, 2005)

I thought that question was answered early on.... 

I believe that the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ claims that no one is saved unless they are baptised specifically "in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost" or something like that.    IMHO that moves a denomination into the 'cult' arena.

Bandy


----------



## Vernon Holt (Sep 12, 2005)

*The Only Way*

Ten four Bandy, I clearly mis-interpreted your statement.  I follow, and agree with your clarification.

There is clearly only one sin that would fall into the category of being unforgiveable, that being a sin against the Holy Spirit.  It is the work to the Holy Spirit to convince, to convict, and to draw all men unto him.  In simple terms, I believe the unforgiveable sin is to reject the sin offering that was so freely given for as many as would believe.  The sin of unbelief will condemn man to eternal ****ation.


----------



## No. GA. Mt. Man (Sep 13, 2005)

Amen Mr. Vernon!


----------



## Branchminnow (Sep 13, 2005)

No. GA. Mt. Man said:
			
		

> Amen Mr. Vernon!


----------



## one_shot_no_mor (Sep 13, 2005)

*The Bible is CLEAR!*



			
				Vernon Holt said:
			
		

> There is clearly only one sin that would fall into the category of being unforgiveable, that being a sin against the Holy Spirit.  It is the work to the Holy Spirit to convince, to convict, and to draw all men unto him.  In simple terms, I believe the unforgiveable sin is to reject the sin offering that was so freely given for as many as would believe.  The sin of unbelief will condemn man to eternal ****ation.



Mr. Vernon,
     As usual, right on the money IMO!  The Bible clearly states that the only "eternal sin" is to blaspheme 
(—v.t. 
1. to speak impiously or irreverently of (God or sacred things). 
2. to speak evil of; slander; abuse. ) 

against the Holy Spirit.  By today's standard, the only way I know that someone could do that is to BLATANTLY reject God's grace and BLATANTLY deny the gift of salvation.  So...  

OPINIONS...   

1.  Those who believe that their DOCTRINE must be strictly followed in order to gain access to Heaven are mistaken. ( I attend a Baptist church but my trusty KJV Holy Bible is the only doctrine I adhere to!)
2.  Those who insist on argueing that man evolved from monkeys (why this would be a DESIRABLE theory to prove is beyond me...) may gain access to Heaven as long as they have not committed the eternal sin.


----------



## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 13, 2005)

> 2. Those who insist on argueing that man evolved from monkeys (why this would be a DESIRABLE theory to prove is beyond me...) may gain access to Heaven as long as they have not committed the eternal sin.



If I may, let me stir the pot.

If one believes in evolution, is that not denying the truth of God's word?  Basically, that would be the same as calling God a liar, right?  To speak that evil of God, would this not be the same as blasphemy?


----------



## PWalls (Sep 13, 2005)

David Mills said:
			
		

> If I may, let me stir the pot.
> 
> If one believes in evolution, is that not denying the truth of God's word?  Basically, that would be the same as calling God a liar, right?  To speak that evil of God, would this not be the same as blasphemy?



I've thought that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is rejection of the offer of Salvation after the Holy Spirit has convicted you and brought you to the point of choosing one way or the other. That is just my thought. Someone please explain better than that.


----------



## one_shot_no_mor (Sep 13, 2005)

*Maybe...*



			
				David Mills said:
			
		

> If I may, let me stir the pot.
> 
> If one believes in evolution, is that not denying the truth of God's word?  Basically, that would be the same as calling God a liar, right?  To speak that evil of God, would this not be the same as blasphemy?



If mortals such as you and I should judge...

Maybe!   

My point is, there is only ONE WAY according to the BIBLE  

AND  

according to the Bible, there is ONLY ONE eternal sin!

Given our feeble minds (as Humans), we are limted in how well we can interpret these TRUTHS.  It will ALL be revealed soon enough...


----------



## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 13, 2005)

Blasphemy
      Speaking evil of God or denying Him some good which we should attribute to Him. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is stating that Jesus did his miracles by the power of the devil (Matt. 12:22-32) and is an unforgivable sin (Mark 3:28-30). Blasphemy arises out of pride (Psalm 73:9,11), hatred (Psalm 74:18), injustice (Isaiah 52:5), etc. Christ was mistakenly accused of blasphemy (John 10:30-33).

This is a cut and paste answer.



> If mortals such as you and I should judge...



I'm judging no one, just applying deductive reasoning.  Hopefully, it may give some a reason to pause and think.


----------



## FESTUSHAGGIN (Sep 13, 2005)

the most important thing i can say and i dont care who you are this applies to you.  religion will take you straight to hades.  the only thing that will get you to heaven is salvation by the blood of jesus christ.  NOTHING else will get you there.  there are people who said they were baptists, catholic, methodist, presbytyrian, muslim, episcopalian, morman, what ever y0ou can think of as a religion  that have busted hel*  wide open and will remain there for all eternity.  i am a baptist,  i believe it is the closest doctrine to the teachings of jesus christ.  does that mean you are wrong for being a methodist, catholic, whatever.  you can be whatever you want to be.  as long as you have been saved by the grace of god you are right.  EVERY man has a space and a time in which they can be saved.


----------



## FESTUSHAGGIN (Sep 13, 2005)

David Mills said:
			
		

> I'm judging no one, just applying deductive reasoning.  Hopefully, it may give some a reason to pause and think.



that is the biggest hurdle with people and there salvation.  too many people try to stop and think.  thinking about it aint gonna save you.  the lord doesnt work in the mind he is in the heart and if people would stop pausing and thinking and trying to figure everything out.  things would be much easier.


----------



## RThomas (Sep 13, 2005)

> If I said I believe that man developed from monkeys I can still go to heaven?



Randy,  I know what you're trying to say, but careful with the wording.  There is already enough confusion concerning evolution as there is (as is obvious from this thread).  We didn't develop from "monkeys", though we do share a common ancestor.

Vernon, your quotes say nothing about HOW God created everything, only that he was the creator.   Evolution may well have been part of that tool.  The theory itself says nothing about how life began.  Many people get Evolution and abiogenesis confused.

Maybe we can start a new thread to discuss evolution for the 100th time


----------



## Derek (Sep 13, 2005)

Randy,

You have said that you believe in Jesus and that he died on the cross for our sins and that you are a born again Christian, correct??  Do you also believe that the Bible is infallible word of God?  

In my mind, I cannot see how you can believe in the above and think we came about from apes.  What about the creation of heaven and earth? Is that God's work or Big Bang Theory, etc???

Believe me, I'm not judging you.  I love ya like a brother, which you are a brother in Christ, but I just cannot for the life of me see where you are coming from.


----------



## Randy (Sep 13, 2005)

one_shot_no_mor said:
			
		

> Those who insist on argueing that man evolved from monkeys (why this would be a DESIRABLE theory to prove is beyond me...) may gain access to Heaven as long as they have not committed the eternal sin.



Let me clarify that I have no insistance to argueing that man evolved from monkeys or that we share a common ancestor.  My whole point was, while I think it is interesting and entirely possible,  the fact that I say I think it is possible makes me, in some people's eyes, not a Christian.  As several have said, I can not be a Christian and believe that is possible.

Here again is why I think some Christians loose sight of the real picture, the ONLY picture, and the only way to Heaven.  The fact is, if I believe in Him and Call upon Him I will be saved and go to Heaven.

The fact that I think it is possible that man and monkeys have ancestors has NOTHING to do with me going to Heaven.  Yet many "christians" will deny me if I do!

My whole point in this is that many "christians" get hung up on some part of the Bible and say if I do not believe that part then I am doomed to big toebig toebig toebig toe.  I do not think they are right and in fact by judging me they may be?

I only used the "evolution" issue because that is one where most "christians" say I am wrong.  There are many parts of the Bible that I do not agree with other "christians" on.  They condem me for those too.


----------



## GeauxLSU (Sep 13, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> Let me clarify that I have no insistance to argueing that man evolved from monkeys or that we share a common ancestor.  My whole point was, while I think it is interesting and entirely possible,  the fact that I say I think it is possible makes me, in some people's eyes, not a Christian.  As several have said, I can not be a Christian and believe that is possible.
> 
> Here again is why I think some Christians loose sight of the real picture, the ONLY picture, and the only way to Heaven.  The fact is, if I believe in Him and Call upon Him I will be saved and go to Heaven.
> 
> ...


Randy,
NOBODY has it 100% correct.  I sincerely believe that is a fact.  The only One who did, died on the cross.


----------



## Phillip Thurmond (Sep 13, 2005)

Wow this is deep and I did not read all the post but to answer the guy who said if I believe that we came from monkeys .  Read your Bible, It says God Created Adam, I do not believe that we elvolved from monkeys.  If we evolved then why are there still monkeys?
Once saved always saved, Someone asked about Judus, He was never saved.  He Talked the talk but never walked the walk.  Thre are many people who are doing that today but they will not see the Kingdom of God!


----------



## RThomas (Sep 13, 2005)

> If we evolved then why are there still monkeys?


A common misconception regarding the theory of evolution. See my previous post.


> NOBODY has it 100% correct.


I agree.  The problem is that so many believe they are 100% correct.


----------



## Phillip Thurmond (Sep 13, 2005)

Ok I read some more.  He is how it is.  Answer these questions.
1. Is the Bible the word of God with no faults or lies?  If you answer anything but Yes then why bother?  Your are wasting your time.  If the Bible is a lie then there is no God there is no Jesus there is not virgin birth there is nothing.  Either you believe or you don't.  You can't pick what parts you like and what parts you don't.  Its really that simple.  No I don't profess to understand all of the Bible but I believe that it is the Word of God plain and simple.  If the Bible is the word of God we did not evolve we were created!  God said it and that is the way it is.
Let me ask you this.  If you take your watch apart and place it on a table how long will it lie there before it evolves into a watch again?


----------



## reylamb (Sep 13, 2005)

Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, and the 7th Day Adventists all believe their way is the only way and if you do not follow their doctrine you can't get to heaven.

Calvinists will tell you it does not matter what you believe, or who you believe in, salvation is predetermined and man can not change it.  They believe man can not either accept or reject salvation.  According to their doctrrinal beliefs some will go to heaven and never know Christ.

I could list more, but yes, there are several denominations that believe outside of their doctrine there is no salvation.

RThomas:


> Vernon, your quotes say nothing about HOW God created everything, only that he was the creator. Evolution may well have been part of that tool. The theory itself says nothing about how life began. Many people get Evolution and abiogenesis confused.


The Bible clearly defines how creation occured, God spoke it and it happened.  It also clearly defines what a day was, "and the evening and the morning were the first day."  At the end of each day of creation we are clearly told that the evening and the morning were the _____ day.  Pretty well rules out evolution.  We are also told God took the dust of the earth and shaped man in His likeness and breathed into him the breath of life.  Once again, pretty well rules out evolution.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 13, 2005)

Although the word of God is just, our understanding is not.  The "word" of God is given through men and women or God uses people to communicate his will to people. Of course the prime example of God's will in writen word is the bible.

People communicate in many different ways and styles.  The bible is no exception. The literal written explanation of love is impossible to man, at least in the spiritual relm and besides people don't communicate love easily. 

Since God is a spirit, I believe according to Timothy, and a living God, then he has not totally revealed himself yet. Their is more to come. Just as it was for the folks 2000 yrs ago or for the hebrews 3 or 4000 yrs ago... there is more to come. Our understanding of God is not the same as it was for Paul or Peter, mainly because we are not these men and God has done a bit of milage with man since then.

God's word is a spiritual word conserning man's life here on planet earth.  It is especially about love. It is not biology, nor is not chronological history, although it deals with these, but only as a stage prop. The main trust concerns itself with living to the fullest  by knowing God.

Now that is the way it is....


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 13, 2005)

Do Calvanists sit in 'church' and wonder if they are favored of God?    Is it a waste of time for Calvanists to go to 'church'?   

Just wondering if going to church makes them feel 'safer'?  I don't know any Calvanists myself,  and have never spoken to one, so I'm not familiar with their beliefs.   


Bandy


----------



## reylamb (Sep 13, 2005)

For whatever reason, they all believe they are part of the elect.  I know a bunch of Calvanists adn I get a kick out of asking them if they are sure they are part of the elect and how do they know?  For some reason there is no answer.

What is better is asking a Jehovah's Witness how they can be part of the 144,000 chosen from the tribe of Isreal when there are more than 144,000 members........I always get a lot of blank stares with that one too.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 13, 2005)

Why limit it to your ancestors?   If it works, then pray for everyone that has gone before.       If we can pray them in after they are gone, then I think I'll just live my life doing anything and everything, and just have my son or daughter pray for me after I'm dead!         (sarcasm)    

Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe that everyone in the congregation is part of the 144,000.   They say that the 144000 have been spread out since Jesus' time, leaving ~7000-8000 living today.   This number was 'cut off' in 1935, so the remaining remnant are dying like flies today.    I'm sure this doctrine will change again, as it has many times before.

Bandy


----------



## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 14, 2005)

> that is the biggest hurdle with people and there salvation. too many people try to stop and think. thinking about it aint gonna save you. the lord doesnt work in the mind he is in the heart and if people would stop pausing and thinking and trying to figure everything out. things would be much easier.



With all due respect, I cannot agree with this.  All too often, people act on impulse and that is where mistakes are made.  Scripture tells us that we are to THINK

Proverbs 15:28, "A good man thinks before he speaks; the evil man pours out his evil words without a thought."

Philippians 4:8, "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."


----------



## Randy (Sep 14, 2005)

Well Phil,
After 66 posts you have your answer.  Everybody has their way.  Many have disagreed with each other here so yes.  Many have the ONLY way...............

Unfortunately, just like "hunters" we tear ourselves apart rather than coming together on the ONLY thing that matters.

We hear on Woody's all the time that we do not need to argue amongst ourselves as hunters.  We should welcome all forms as long as they are legal.  It is just not in Man's nature to accept everything.  That goes for hunting, religion, politics and everything else.


----------



## RThomas (Sep 14, 2005)

> The Bible clearly defines how creation occured, God spoke it and it happened. It also clearly defines what a day was, "and the evening and the morning were the first day." At the end of each day of creation we are clearly told that the evening and the morning were the _____ day. Pretty well rules out evolution. We are also told God took the dust of the earth and shaped man in His likeness and breathed into him the breath of life. Once again, pretty well rules out evolution.


And you believe God can't use metaphors?  The people who were reading the bible had no scientific understanding.  Do you think God would explain creation in a scientific way, or a metaphorical way that would be comprehensible to an ancient people?  
The entire bible is NOT to be taken literal.  It is filled with metaphors, parables, ect.
The ONLY group that has an issue with evolution, are those that believe the bible must be read literally, or has very little understanding of evolution (the two usually go hand-in-hand).
However, I don't want to hijack Phil's thread any more than it has been.  So I'll leave evolution for its own thread.


----------



## Randy (Sep 14, 2005)

RThomas,
OMG you are doomed to think like that!!!!!


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 14, 2005)

RThomas said:
			
		

> The ONLY group that has an issue with evolution, are those that believe the bible must be read literally, or has very little understanding of evolution (the two usually go hand-in-hand).



RT,

I disagree with your statement, as I take issue with evolution but I don't believe in a literal 6 day creation period.    I disagree with evolutionary theory because of evidence, not because of the Bible.

Bandy


----------



## Lthomas (Sep 14, 2005)

I do and I do not agree with evolution. I do not believe we are a decendant from a Monkey. However, I do believe our ancestors were not very smart people. Wheather they had more hair or walked different, I have no idea. I do think our creation by god was explained very simple in the book of genesis. I do not think that someone reading it two thousand years ago would have understood the biologic culturing of cells, and metabolic rates, ect.... to explain our exhistance. One thing is for sure. We are all decendants of Adam and Eve. The exactness of how they were created are details we were not given. Where in Gods law dose it say he could not use one creature to make another. After all he had to takea rib from Adam to make Eve. Nothing in the laws of his universe that says he could not of used the spine of a gorilla, the lungs of a pig, the eyes of a dophin, ect. If he did, dose this make us decendants of apes, farm animals, or did we crawl out of the ocean? Not at all. He made us in his likeness. The fact that he made us throws out evolution.


----------



## RThomas (Sep 14, 2005)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> RT,
> 
> I disagree with your statement, as I take issue with evolution but I don't believe in a literal 6 day creation period.    I disagree with evolutionary theory because of evidence, not because of the Bible.
> 
> Bandy


Does your evidence happen to come from answersingenesis (aig), or the ICR?  What is your degree in science? What books have you read by the leading evolution researchers?  Just curious.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 14, 2005)

If I have answers, does it matter where I got them?   Does one have to have a science degree to learn about science?

Can I ask you a question?   Do you believe in God?

Bandy


----------



## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 14, 2005)

Since the beginning of recorded history, man has sought to explain things in terms man could understand.  God cannot be explained in terms man can understand nor can the "how did God do it" be explained.  If it could be explained in human terms, then God wouldn't be God.  Some things, many things, have to be accepted because God is all powerful and He and His power is beyond our comprehension.


----------



## RThomas (Sep 14, 2005)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> If I have answers, does it matter where I got them?   Does one have to have a science degree to learn about science?
> 
> Can I ask you a question?   Do you believe in God?
> 
> Bandy


Actually, it does matter where you got the evidence.  If you have evidence that disproves evolution, then I'm sure the scientific communtity and the world would be interested in hearing it.  Such amazing evidence would either come from yourself if you have a qualified science degree, from a book you read authored by a qualifed scientist, or from a creationist/ID source.   So yes, it makes a difference.  
If you have this evidence that goes against all current evidence that supports evolution, which is supported by every scientific field involving evolution, that is agreed upon by people of multiple faiths and cultures, then I'd be one of many that would like to know about it.
If, on the other hand, you have the same old "evidence" from a creationist/ID source, save your time.  They have been shot down over and over again.
And to answer the question you really want to know, no, I am not a Christian.  Which is completely irrelevant as to whether evolution is true or not.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 14, 2005)

Nope, whether you are christian or not wasn't what I asked.   Do you believe in god?   Are you an atheist?   (we both know that you can beat around the bush on this and decline to give a "yes" or "no", but there can only be two choices)

Bandy


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 14, 2005)

Also, you've said in the past that "you've heard all the arguments...", but what you don't say is that you decide _a priori_ to ignore the evidence for design.   You simply will not listen to reasonable facts.    For example, the fact that information has never been witnessed being added to the genetic code of any organism (not including degree-holding scientists in a lab forcing genes to move around) must really be a thorn in your side as an evolutionists.    Since we had to have evolved from organisms with less genetic information, then it had to have been added gradually, no ifs, ands or buts right?    Gene swapping does not explain the origin of a gene either.   But the god called "time" can do anything....   

Bandy


----------



## RThomas (Sep 14, 2005)

I am a humanist.  There may well be a God, higher power, supreme being, creator, ect.  And?
I have not decided to prematurely ignore the evidence. You, nor anyone else has presented ANY evidence to support ID.  Stating that life is so complex that there MUST be a creator is NOT evidence.  It's an assumption.  If you have evidence- present it.  Actually, it is you and your like that will ignore ANY evidence for evolution.  It is part of your belief system that you must choose what you believe based your faith rather than what the evidence actually shows.
Basically, what you are saying, is that scientists from various areas of expertice,  an array of religious beliefs, and different cultures and societies all over the world are all wrong.  Men and women who have spent the majority of their lives studying and teaching science have somehow been fooled into believing evolution.  Is it a huge conspiracy or are all these people just dumb?
Yet, you and others, with little or no expertice in these fields, and who share a common religious belief, have it figured out?



> For example, the fact that information has never been witnessed being added to the genetic code of any organism (not including degree-holding scientists in a lab forcing genes to move around) must really be a thorn in your side as an evolutionists. Since we had to have evolved from organisms with less genetic information, then it had to have been added gradually, no ifs, ands or buts right? Gene swapping does not explain the origin of a gene either. But the god called "time" can do anything....


Please, learn about the actual theory and the evidence for it.  It is not my responsiblity, nor do I have the time, to teach you all the various aspects of evolution and the fallacy of ID/creationist arguements. To continue to discuss this with you is fruitless.  You have your position and no amount of evidence will change it.  Show me actual evidence for ID/creationism and I'll admit I was wrong.  Until then, there is no point in this going back and forth. We've been through it.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 14, 2005)

Agnostic then!?    I must say, I'm amazed that you will admit to even the possibility of a 'god'.   Hats off to you.

As for evidence of ID, it is enough for me to watch you squirm over the "information" problem.    As long as I know that you realize that the inability of any organism to add to it's genetic code (base pair by base pair) is a tremendous hurdle to evolutionary theory does me wonders!!    And well it should!!!!   Given enough time though....anything is possible, huh?

Bandy


----------



## RThomas (Sep 14, 2005)

Squirm? Why would I squirm at your lack of knowledge and understanding of the TOE?  
Ok, here's the deal.  Provide your link to the information for your claim.  I'll review it.  After that it's up to you to learn about evolution.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 14, 2005)

I'll let two scientists speak for me...

    "With the inability of mutations of any type to produce new genetic information, the maintenance of the basic plan is to be expected....
    There are limits to biological change and these limits are set by the structure and function of the genetic machinery."
 	L. P. Lester Ph.D. and R. G. Bohlin Ph.D,
"The Natural Limits of Biological Change"  

I'm sure since these are PhDs that you'll respect their opinion, even if it differs from your own TOE scientists.

This quote came from one of my favorite sites, evolutionisdead.com, but we all have our favorites, huh RT?   Let me guess yours.....    TALKORIGINS.ORG?   LOL

Bandy


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 14, 2005)

Another favorite...

"'Survival of the fittest' and 'natural selection'. No matter what phraseology one generates, the basic fact remains the same: any physical change of any size, shape or form is strictly the result of purposeful alignment of billions of nucleotides (in the DNA).

    Nature or species do not have the capacity to rearrange them nor to add to them. Consequently no leap (saitation) can occur from one species to another.

    The only way we know for a DNA to be altered is through a meaningful intervention from an outside source of intelligence - one who know what it is doing, such as our genetic engineers are now performing in the laboratories"
 	I. L. Cohen,
Officer of the Archaeological Institute of America. Member New York Academy of Sciences. "Darwin Was Wrong - A Study in Probabilities" New Research Publications, Inc., p. 209

I'm not trying to get in a 'cut and paste' derailment here; just wanted to show that there IS evidence that organisms could not evolve.

You are right.....there is nothing that either one of us could say to the other that would make us do a 180.   We see what we want to see.

Bandy


----------



## reylamb (Sep 14, 2005)

RThomas said:
			
		

> Basically, what you are saying, is that scientists from various areas of expertice, an array of religious beliefs, and different cultures and societies all over the world are all wrong. Men and women who have spent the majority of their lives studying and teaching science have somehow been fooled into believing evolution. Is it a huge conspiracy or are all these people just dumb?


First, show me anywhere that God, not Jesus (God in the Flesh), but God the Father, the Jehovah in the OT, used metaphors?  No?  You can't.  Then the obvious is the answer a day was a day and the evening and the morning were a day.  If you also go as to take the account in Genesis, plants were created after the sun.  If a day was not a day, how long could plant life have survived without sunlight?  A metaphorical million years?

Second, has there ever been a time in recorded history that scientists have all held one belief, only to be later found incorrect, or are scientists always correct?

Finally, you keep referring to the theory of evolution.  A postulate is a theory until it is proven, then it becomes law.  We had the theory of gravity, then it was proven, now it is the law of gravity.  By your own admission and use of the term, evolution is a theory and not yet proven.  If all scientists are correct as you theorize, would it not be the Law of Evolution?


----------



## Randy (Sep 14, 2005)

Sorry I started this Phil!  Your thread has been hijacked by me.  But iguess you got your answer in a round about way.  The answer is yes.  For each of us it is our Way or no way.


----------



## GeauxLSU (Sep 14, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> Sorry I started this Phil!  Your thread has been hijacked by me.  But iguess you got your answer in a round about way.  The answer is yes.  For each of us it is our Way or no way.


You have a point.  
On the original question I do appreciate those with denominational knowledge of exclusivity that commented on such.  I thought there might be even more.  I'm glad there's not more 'official' exclusivity but again, I guess you have proven a paralled point, that there is individual exclusivity.  
But yes, next time start your own evolution thread!  It will only be about the 1,000th time it's been discussed to no discernable conclusion.


----------



## reylamb (Sep 14, 2005)

Sorry about that Phil, I am guilty, I am a hijacker.

Actually, there are more denominations out there that believe they have the exclusive track to heaven, and their denomination will be the only one present in Heaven.  Many of the minor subsections of Baptists still believe there will only be Baptists in heaven.

Some would argue that Catholic doctrine teaches there is no absolution without a priest, which would exclude most that do not practice praying through priests.  Now, most Catholics do not hold to that teaching, but it is doctrine as per the Vatican in the strictest doctrine.

There are some sects of Evangelicals that believe you can not enter heaven without receiving the gifts of the Spirit.  There are some that believe yo can not enter heaven without baptism.  To list them all would be entirely too time consuming.


----------



## PWalls (Sep 14, 2005)

Some churches also teach that if you don't speak in tongues or have healing power and such, that you are not saved.


----------



## Phillip Thurmond (Sep 14, 2005)

RThomas I have to throw my 2 cents in.  Evolution is a theory not fact.  There is no evidence to prove that it ever happened.  No having said that I cannot prove that God does exist however I do believe that he does with all my heart.  
Let me ask this question of you.  If we evolved from Monkeys/Apes then why are there still Monkeys/Apes?  Would that species now not exist since it evolved?
I don't want to start a big thing but just wondering.  
I  guess that is God’s big plan.  I can prove this from a history point of view.  Jesus did exist.  He was born in Bethlehem and he did walk on this earth.  He did perform miracles while he was here and he was crucified on the cross by the Roman Government.  3 days later his body was found missing from his tomb even though the Romans had placed a guard there to make sure no one stole the body.  Also a fact is Jesus was seen and talked to after he was crucified.  Now I don’t know about you but I don’t know anyone other than God who could pull something like that off.  If you don’t believe what I’m saying read Roman History.  All of these things are facts not Theory.


----------



## Oak Ridge (Sep 14, 2005)

Acts 2:38.


----------



## dbodkin (Sep 14, 2005)

I know the Bible says  You must go through Jesus  to God.. 
 And different sects have exclusions in doctorine. How about Jews.. Muslim.. We all worship the same God?   In the strictest words we are saying without Jesus there is no heaven...  So every Rabbi and every Muslim cleric is going to that "Hot Place"  Even though that Rabbi loves God, worships him with all his being.. He is still going down there????


----------



## GeauxLSU (Sep 14, 2005)

dbodkin said:
			
		

> I know the Bible says  You must go through Jesus  to God..
> And different sects have exclusions in doctorine. How about Jews.. Muslim.. We all worship the same God?   In the strictest words we are saying without Jesus there is no heaven...  So every Rabbi and every Muslim cleric is going to that "Hot Place"  Even though that Rabbi loves God, worships him with all his being.. He is still going down there????


Same bible obviously says they are the chosen ones....


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 14, 2005)

Phillip,

Evolutionists believe that man and monkeys have a common ancestor, not necessarily that man came directly from monkeys.    Very hard to find in any evolutionary tree diagram one species that all evolutionists agree directly preceeded another.  Most claim that chimpanzees are our closest evolutionary relative, and at one time claimed that human DNA and chimp DNA was over 99% the same, but that has been shown to be closer to 95% with recent studies.   5% of 3,000,000,000 base pairs should give you an example of how much difference there is in human and chimp DNA.    I've also heard it theorized that the supposed evolutionary predecessor of humans was killed off by modern humans.

Anyway, just figured I'd give you some background on the monkey-to-man question.    

Bandy


----------



## RThomas (Sep 15, 2005)

Ok, Bandy, just now getting  a chance to respond.  First, I had hoped for links showing evidence, examples, studies, published acticles, something supporting your claim.  Not just a few quotes.  Quotes are really meaningly unless backed up with evidence. 
As far as the authors of the quotes, I could find little about them other than the quotes you lifted.  I asked others if they knew anything about them and the only thing that came up was this:
"Lane P. Lester bio: Ph.D. Purdue Univ. 1971Genetics
Professor of Biology, Emmanuel College in GA
*Member Board of Directors, Creation Research Society
Director, Museum of Earth and Life History, Liberty Univ.
Editor, Creation Research Quarterly*

Ray G, Bohlin: Ph.D. Univ. of Texas, Dallas Molecular Biology
*President, Probe Ministries*

No research in standard peer reviewed journals after grad school. The book mentioned was published in 1989. 

About the only thing I could dig up on IL Cohen was that quote - from a book published in 1984. Essentially nothing else in the first 10 pages of Googling his name. Most probably a nobody.

As far as science, they're ancient history. Flat out wrong even when published"

You haven't presented evidence for your claim.


----------



## Phillip Thurmond (Sep 15, 2005)

RThomas, I think I did.  However you can not "prove" your Theory either!


----------



## RThomas (Sep 15, 2005)

Phillip Thurmond said:
			
		

> RThomas, I think I did.  However you can not "prove" your Theory either!


Phillip, I was actually referring to Bandersnatch in my previous post.  
Concerning your post stating:


> Evolution is a theory not fact. There is no evidence to prove that it ever happened.


and


> If we evolved from Monkeys/Apes then why are there still Monkeys/Apes? Would that species now not exist since it evolved?


Both are frequent misconceptions concerning evolution.  
There are abundant resources addressing both issues.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 15, 2005)

I did a quick lookup on Dr Bohlin and this is what I found...

Raymond G. Bohlin is President of Probe Ministries. Dr. Bohlin was born and raised in Chicago, IL and is a graduate of the University of Illinois (****, zoology, 1971-1975), the University of North Texas (M.S., population genetics, 1977-1980), and the University of Texas at Dallas (M.S., Ph.D., molecular and cell biology, 1984-1991).


Looks like a real dummy to me!!!!    

These are some of his publications that his website lists...(of course, I'm not including the christian publications)

    * Bohlin, Raymond G. and Beitinger, Thomas L., 1979. Heat exchange in the aquatic salamander, Amphiuma means. J. Thermal Biology 4:63-67.

    * Bohlin, Raymond G. and Zimmerman, Earl G. 1982. Genic differentiation of two chromosome races of the Geomys bursarius complex. Journal of Mammalogy 63:218-228.
    * Bohlin, Raymond G. and Anderson, J. Kerby. 1983. The Straw God of Stephen Gould. Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation 35(1): 42-44.
    * Bohlin, Raymond G. 1991. Complementation of a defect in complex I of the electron transport chain by DNA-mediated gene transfer. Ph.D. dissertation, University of Texas at Dallas.
    * Bohlin, Raymond G. 1999. The Possibilities and Ethics of Human Cloning. Chapter 17 in Genetic Engineering: A Christian Response, Timothy Demy and Patrick Stewart, editors, Kregel Press, Grand Rapids, MI, pp. 260-277.
    * Bohlin, Ray. 2000. Ed., Creation, Evolution, and Modern Science: Probing the Headlines that Impact Your Family, Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids, Mich., 192 pp.


So, we should exclude anything that this guy has to say?   He's obviously not knowledgeable in genetics, correct?    Should I just stick with statements/evidence that the non-christian molecular biochemist Michael Behe has to present? 

As you may know, several scientist got together one day to figure out the minimum number of genes that the first self-replicating cell would have had to have had.    Does it matter to you that that cell could not have survived and reproduced itself without at least 250+ genes???     I can lookup the link to their work, if you believe that that is a significant finding?    If you see that as no big deal for abiogenesis, (without purpose or intellect being involved) then again, you are ignoring the evidence.


Bandy


----------



## RThomas (Sep 15, 2005)

> So, we should exclude anything that this guy has to say? He's obviously not knowledgeable in genetics, correct? Should I just stick with statements/evidence that the non-christian molecular biochemist Michael Behe has to present?


No.  I asked for evidence and you provided quotes.  And, you have still failed to provide evidence.  



> These are some of his publications that his website lists...(of course, I'm not including the christian publications)


And your point?  Where's the evidence? He's published  books.  Great.  Oh, and these are ALL geared toward christians. sorry.


> So, we should exclude anything that this guy has to say? He's obviously not knowledgeable in genetics, correct? Should I just stick with statements/evidence that the non-christian molecular biochemist Michael Behe has to present?


You seriously want to present Behe's IC claims?  Now that is funny.  He has been proven incorrect so many times that even he has admitted he's claims were wrong.  Please try and stay up to date with current (or in this case, old) developments.


> As you may know, several scientist got together one day to figure out the minimum number of genes that the first self-replicating cell would have had to have had. Does it matter to you that that cell could not have survived and reproduced itself without at least 250+ genes??? I can lookup the link to their work, if you believe that that is a significant finding? If you see that as no big deal for abiogenesis, (without purpose or intellect being involved) then again, you are ignoring the evidence.


*Yawn*
This again?  This has been proven wrong just like all other ID claims.  I'm sure you haven't taken the time to read the actual research.

Look, the more you post the more you show how little your understanding is concerning evolution and its mechanisms. You parrot what you read from ID/creationist websites and have never presented a micron of evidence against evolution and certainly no evidence supporting ID or creationism.  You've already admitted yourself that you're a lost cause: 





> You are right.....there is nothing that either one of us could say to the other that would make us do a 180. We see what we want to see.


And, to correct your quote, I never said I wouldn't change my views.  I'll base what I believe on the evidence presented. If another theory comes along that better explains biodiversity, then I'll shift my view accordingly.  You on the other hand have admitted that no amount of evidence would change your beliefs.   
Since you can not produce any evidence for ID/creationism, yet continue to harp about all the impossibilities of evolution, I'll leave you with this link.  This is from a poster on dreaded talkorigins forum.  However,  I think he may have well been talking directly to you.  Please, read the entire thing.  It sums up my views precisely.
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/mar05.html


----------



## Dawg In the Swamp (Sep 15, 2005)




----------



## Lthomas (Sep 15, 2005)

Now we know why drunk rednecks say "Hey yall watch this" just before swinging off tree and into another just before breaking an arm or leg. It all makes sence now. 
I bet ole Darwin was watchin monkeys one day and he had a few shipmates that were swingin from the mast hootin and hollerin when he got back to the ship. No wonder he came to his conclusions and theorys. Heck the poor ole boy couldnt tell which was the monkey and which was the drunk redneck. I think he was just a bit confused.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 16, 2005)

It amazes me how you ignore the evidence that I provide and ask for evidence!   To me, and I'm sure most readers of this thread, I have provided evidence.   (the minimum genetic makeup and inability of organisms to add to their own genetic information)    Since you, and all naturalists scientist, will not consider anything as evidence for creation then what is left to be said?   As one scientist stated..

    "Even if all the data point to an intelligent designer, such an hypothesis is excluded from science because it is not naturalistic."
 	Dr Scott C. Todd,
Immunologist at Kansas State University: Correspondence to Nature 410(6752):423, 30 Sept. 1999

So, what would you consider as valid evidence of creation, short of witnessing it with your own eyes firsthand?    Nothing.     

Concerning Behe, I know that your talkorigin site is full of rebuttals for his research, but then again Trueorigins will provide his rebuttal to their rebuttal!!!    If anyone with an open mind has read Darwin's Black Box then at the very least they are made aware of how infinitely impossible the miracle of life springing up on it's own is.   

Also, I've never heard that the minimum gene set for that first cell was actually reduced from a research-backed 250+ down to.....  what?     5?     3?      I'd be interested in reading what the new figures are.

I listed Bohlin's credentials and publications as rebuttal for your implication that these scientists were nobodies.   And several of his publications were in non-christian peer-reviewed (as you prefer) magazines.   I think it is safe to say that this guy qualifies as an 'expert witness'.     

Bandy


----------



## leroy (Sep 19, 2005)

you can throw all the evidence of evolution at me you want I have mine and its called the Holy Bible all the proof I need!!


----------



## cpaboy (Sep 20, 2005)

I've been off the board for months, but its the same ole RThomas trying to convince someone to believe in evolution.  I personally don't know anyone who does.  I guess I only associate with narrow-minded bigots.


----------



## Randy (Sep 20, 2005)

cpaboy said:
			
		

> I guess I only associate with narrow-minded bigots.



I guess that makes me a broad-minded bigot?


----------



## GeauxLSU (Sep 20, 2005)

Someone start a thread on evolution so I'm no longer tempted to delete this one.


----------



## No. GA. Mt. Man (Sep 20, 2005)

Phil if this horse ain't dead it ain't never gonna die.


----------



## GeauxLSU (Sep 20, 2005)

No. GA. Mt. Man said:
			
		

> Phil if this horse ain't dead it ain't never gonna die.


Just hate that he took ill (again) in my stable.


----------



## Randy (Sep 20, 2005)

But if you read between the lines, at least you found the answer to your question.


----------



## RThomas (Sep 20, 2005)

cpaboy said:
			
		

> I've been off the board for months, but its the same ole RThomas trying to convince someone to believe in evolution.  I personally don't know anyone who does.  I guess I only associate with narrow-minded bigots.


Actually, you're wrong.  If someone rejects evolution because of their personal faith, then so be it.  If someone claims to reject evolution based on the evidence, then I will call them on it.  You also imply that I'm calling anyone who doesn't believe in evolution  "narrow-minded bigots".  Of course I never said that nor would I.


> Someone start a thread on evolution so I'm no longer tempted to delete this one.


As I stated in the begining, if anyone wanted to discuss evolution, they should start a new thread.  I think I suggested this a couple of times.  But feel free to delete this thread.  It has "evolved" away from what it was meant to be


----------

