# Musical Instruments in Worship.



## Ronnie T (May 18, 2009)

What do you think?

John Calvin, one of the founders of the Presbyterian Church: "Musical instruments in celebrating the praise of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting up of lamps, the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists, therefore, have foolishly borrowed this, as well as many other things, from the Jews." John Calvin's Commentary, Ps. 33. 

Adam Clarke, the greatest commentator of all time among the Methodists: "I am an old man, and an old minister; and I here declare that I never knew them (musical instruments) productive of any good in the worship of God; and have had reason to believe that they were productive of much evil. Music, as a science, I esteem and admire; but instruments of music in the house of God I abominate and abhor. This is the abuse of music; and here I register my protest against all such corruptions in the worship of the Author of Christianity." Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, page 684. 

John Wesley, the reputed founder of the Methodist Church, is quoted by Adam Clarke to have said: "I have no objection to instruments of music in our chapels, provided they are neither heard nor seen." Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, page 684. 

Martin Luther, a distinguished reformer, "called the organ an ensign of baal." McClintock and Strong's Encyclopedia, Vol. 6, page 762. 

Charles H. Spurgeon, recognized as one of the greatest Baptist preachers that ever lived, who preached for 20 years to thousands of people weekly in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle, London, England, did not have musical instruments in the worship. M.C. Kurfeest, Instrumental Music in the Worship, page 196. 

Conybeare and Howson, famous scholars of the Church of England, in commentary of Eph 5:19 say, "Make melody with the music of your hearts, to the Lord...let your songs be, not the drinking of heathen feasts, but psalms and hymns; and their accompaniment, not the music of the lyre, but the melody of the heart." Life and Epistles of St. Paul, Vol. 2, page 408.


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## Huntinfool (May 18, 2009)

What do I think?  I think I disagree....


Does that make some of these men any less revered as giants in my mind?  Nope.


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## pigpen1 (May 18, 2009)

Ps 150:1 -6

150:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.

3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.


KJV


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## Ronnie T (May 18, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Ps 150:1 -6
> 
> 150:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
> 
> ...




Isn't it interesting that instruments were certainly used by the Jews, but history shows that instruments were never used by the apostles in the early church.  Matter of fact, instruments weren't allowed into the church until the 3rd or 4th century.  And only then after much argument.  Even then, very few churches would allow them.


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## formula1 (May 18, 2009)

*Re:*

No wonder worship is so boring at some of these churches!

Sometimes we can miss the boat though and still not miss the party!


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## pigpen1 (May 18, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Isn't it interesting that instruments were certainly used by the Jews, but history shows that instruments were never used by the apostles in the early church.  Matter of fact, instruments weren't allowed into the church until the 3rd or 4th century.  And only then after much argument.  Even then, very few churches would allow them.



 I guess God doesn't like praise anymore, He must have changed.


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## earl (May 18, 2009)

Psalms and Song of Solomon will have to be removed if you truly don't believe in musical instruments. The human voice is the first musical instrument.


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## Ronnie T (May 18, 2009)

Gatorb said:


> history may show that, but i don't see any commands or direction from God showing that the instruments shouldn't be there....or am I missing something?




I don't know.
But why would early church leaders and those men listed in post #1 be so against instruments??
That's what I'd like to know.


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## Madman (May 18, 2009)

Seems odd to me that there are musical instruments in the throne room of God, but you can't have them in worship.  I thought that was what we we suppose to do WORSHIP.


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## Lead Poison (May 18, 2009)

I fully believe in using musical instruments in the worship service at church.


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## fishndinty (May 19, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I don't know.
> But why would early church leaders and those men listed in post #1 be so against instruments??
> That's what I'd like to know.



it was probably an overreaction to the use of musical instruments in pagan rituals.  Everything that can be used for God's glory can also be used for man's selfishness.

This is just a guess.


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## jneil (May 19, 2009)

Didn't the little drummer boy play for Jesus?


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## Jeffriesw (May 19, 2009)

fishndinty said:


> it was probably an overreaction to the use of musical instruments in pagan rituals.  Everything that can be used for God's glory can also be used for man's selfishness.
> 
> This is just a guess.



That would be my guess as well.

Those listed in the OP my have very well had strong convictions based upon what was going on around them at the time. If they seen and heard alot of music being played in unGodly settings, that may have very well jaded there opinion. Maybe the music being played at the time and in the area they were at was more of a bar room baudy style and really not being played for the glory of God. More of a self gratifying thing.

I really don't know..

These men may have been giants in the Church, but if the Bible condones it, I am not going to argue against it.

I got to admit that I do like some praise and worship while in Church. The church I am currently attending uses a full band. They also just use the piano at times to play some of the old hymn's which is great.

I would think the key would be.. Is it being played for the Glory of God, or the Glory of man?


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## Cornelia_Hiker (May 19, 2009)

What amazingly clear examples of how small minded some men can be. Small men who dare to proclaim what God likes and what God dislikes. Like they know ??

The only thing that makes sense is this:

That God would lovingly accept any sincere act or gesture of praise and worship from any of His children and at any time, from any place, and under any circumstances.

And BTW Jesus was a skilled musician and for a long time owned and played a harp, only finally having to sell it to help cover family expenses during the tough years after their father Joseph's death.


Let the music play  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






As for individual churches and worshipers, let them conduct their services as their leaders and congregants desire. It is obviously what they like or they wouldn't show up and do it. But it would be nice if there were _unity of purpose_ amongst them all.


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## Huntinfool (May 19, 2009)

There IS unity of purpose....just not unity of practice IMO.


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## Double Barrel BB (May 19, 2009)

When there is more emphasis put on the music than on Gospel, then you have a serious problem...

Music should be for nothing but to Glorify God... If it doesn't Glorify God than it has no business in the Church.

I have visited several churches in the Atlanta area and find it very sad when there is 45 minutes of singing and listening to music and only about 20 minutes of preaching the Gospel... It should be the other way around, at the very least...

I would rather see it as 10-15 minutes of singing and then 45 to however long the Lord leads the Pastor to preach... even if that meant listening to a sermon for hours...

DB BB


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## drippin' rock (May 19, 2009)

We react emotionally to music.  Music can pull at our foundations; it can even awaken Primal feelings/urges. Great music can even induce the same feelings as that "mountaintop high" us Southern Baptists reserve for Revival.  Certainly Paganistic rituals were shuned in the early Church.  Aside: But then Christianity is laced with Pagan rituals that were glossed over and turned just enough to convert the heathen masses! i.e. Christmas, Easter, Valentine's Day.... Oh wait! That's Hallmark! And another Thread!
        I think Christianity in the early days took such a minimalist approach to worship, that anything that evoked any emotion was demonized.  If anything made your heart swell besides Jesus Christ it was of the Devil.  Therefore, since music could pull at heartstrings, it took emotion away from "worship" as the early Church interpreted it.  Too much competition.
          I think as we evolve mentally we see that it's OK to incorporate music into Worship as long as we don't loose focus on what Worship is for.  
          Church would be a more difficult pill to swallow these days without Music.  So maybe the theory evolved over time to allow music to attract more people.  Kinda like telling the Celts they could still have their Winter Solstice party, but they had to call it Christmas!


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## Banjo (May 19, 2009)

> That God would lovingly accept any sincere act or gesture of praise and worship from any of His children and at any time, from any place, and under any circumstances.



Nope....He doesn't.  Sincerity does not make something acceptable as one can be sincerely wrong....

1 Samuel 6:19
"But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the Lord. The people mourned because of the heavy blow the Lord had dealt them."

They just LOOKED.....

2 Samuel 6:2-7 (also 1 Chr 13:7-10)

He and all his men set out from Baalah of Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the Name, the name of the Lord Almighty, who is enthroned between the cherubim that are on the ark. They set the ark of God on a new cart and brought it from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, were guiding the new cart with the ark of God on it, and Ahio was walking in front of it. David and the whole house of Israel were celebrating with all their might before the Lord , with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, sistrums and cymbals.

When they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. The Lord's anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down and he died there beside the ark of God."

I am sure Uzzah was sincerely trying to keep the Ark from falling....but God had said ONLY PRIESTS were to carry/touch it.

Notice the Bible calls Uzzah's act IRREVERENT....His motives were probably sincere....but they were in defiance of God's Word.

This is what I see plaguing our modern churches today.  MAN deciding what pleases God...instead of searching the Scriptures in order to understand what GOD has said pleases Him.

As for musical instruments...as long as they are an aid to worship and not the main attraction...I don't see why there would be a problem with them.  

Know anybody who won't go to certain churches because of the MUSIC????  That is a problem.  When does the MUSIC take precedence over the PREACHING?  Music does stir the emotions...but TRUTH should too.


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## crackerdave (May 19, 2009)

One could even proclaim "Acoustic instruments ONLY!"
 Or did they have electricity in the Old Testament days,and I missed it?

Brother roothog - your testimony is needed here!

Cornelia Hiker - were did you learn that info about Jesus and His harp? I have never heard of that,and have always been interested in knowing more about the early life of our Lord.


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## Jeff Phillips (May 19, 2009)

Another example of men trying to place God in a little box in THEIR control!

Worship my way or you are wrong! That will really reach folks for Jesus

Paul said to do whatever is neccesary to reach the lost, that some might be saved!

David danced before the Ark of the Covenant!


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## Banjo (May 19, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> When there is more emphasis put on the music than on Gospel, then you have a serious problem...
> 
> Music should be for nothing but to Glorify God... If it doesn't Glorify God than it has no business in the Church.
> 
> ...



My friend....I am giving you a hearty











AMEN!!!!!!!!!!


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## reformedpastor (May 19, 2009)

Musical instruments in Church is something that I have many conversations about. 

1. It is because these folks want to be biblical and please God by obeying His word. Obedience over emotions and personal preference. They desire to please God by keeping His word. 

2. If you only use the New Testament to derive your doctrine of worship then you shouldn't use musical instruments. 

a. its not commanded by Christ or the Apostles

b. there is not one instance were we see them being used by the early Church. 

c. so why use? Because I want to!! I like them!! And God wil have to accept what I want to give Him!! I hope thats not the case. 

Of course if you want instrumentation in worship you immediately jump in and quote the OT, Which is proper and recommended. Ummm, the OT is good enough for the doctrine of worship but not baptism??Still think think its a left over Romanish doctrine??? 

3. There are hermeneutical principles to consider: 

a. The progressive nature of revelation; unfolding and revealing more and more until Christ. Then even a brief glimpse into heaven. 

b. Once there is a command its always commanded until its abrogated. Are we commanded to play instruments? Yes, they played them in the temple along with a 3000 person choir at one point. 

c. Is the OT more glorious above the NT. Those who hold to no instrumentation must believe this.  Should our worship be less when we have the reality of Christ and the fullness of the Holy Spirit? I think not. 

d. The historical argument. The context on the early Church; they didn't have public meeting places any longer but were met were they could. It seems logical that when they did gain such assemblies that they would resume worship as that which pleased God. 

e. The logical argument. There is instrumentation in the OT and in heaven but not in the NT Church? This puzzles me. This alone has caused me much grief over many reformed brethren who advocate otherwise. Earl is correct-voices are instruments.


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## Madman (May 19, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> When there is more emphasis put on the music than on Gospel, then you have a serious problem...
> 
> Music should be for nothing but to Glorify God... If it doesn't Glorify God than it has no business in the Church.
> 
> ...





I'm not much of a contemporary music fan, but I would like to hear more about, "a lot more preaching and not so much praise and worship."

Please


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## Banjo (May 19, 2009)

> Paul said to do whatever is neccesary to reach the lost, that some might be saved!



Even if it means contradicting clear commands in Scripture???????

No way. That is what is .


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## SkeeterEater (May 19, 2009)

I think they should use a drum machine and turntables to do a little Holy record scratchin!


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## Banjo (May 19, 2009)

> Of course if you want instrumentation in worship you immediately jump in and quote the OT, Which is proper and recommended. Ummm, the OT is good enough for the doctrine of worship but not baptism??Still think think its a left over Romanish doctrine???



 

We haven't had a good ol', smack down thread on baptism in some time......Should we???

Perhaps a thread on hermeneutics would be beneficial for both topics:  instruments in worship and Covenant baptism.


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## Jeff Phillips (May 19, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Even if it means contradicting clear commands in Scripture???????
> 
> No way. That is what is .



1 Cor. KJV

22b I am made all things to all men, that I might by *all *means save some. 

   23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. 

Paul says "ALL MEANS".

Guess he was wrong


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## Banjo (May 19, 2009)

Jeff Phillips said:


> 1 Cor. KJV
> 
> 22b I am made all things to all men, that I might by *all *means save some.
> 
> ...



PLEASE think about what you are saying....Does "all means" mean anything we say goes....OR does it reference "ALL MEANS" that are sanctioned by God.

Would Paul be giving us permission to break God's Word?  Could the Holy Spirit inspire Paul to contradict anything that God had said?  

Do you think Paul would have lived a "homosexual" lifestyle in order to save homosexuals?


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## Jeff Phillips (May 19, 2009)

Banjo said:


> PLEASE think about what you are saying....Does "all means" mean anything we say goes....OR does it reference "ALL MEANS" that are sanctioned by God.
> 
> Would Paul be giving us permission to break God's Word?  Could the Holy Spirit inspire Paul to contradict anything that God had said?
> 
> Do you think Paul would have lived a "homosexual" lifestyle in order to save homosexuals?



Keeping it in the context of this thread; I believe that Paul would accept instruments in worship IF it brought the lost to the Lord. I believe Paul would have used Christian Rock if it saved lost souls! He would have used ALL MEANS to reach the lost!

We probably need a new thread for the homosexual question, but I believe Christ would have spent more time in the homosexual community than in our Churches if he were walking the earth today. To most Christians gays are the lepers of our time.

Jesus said: "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."


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## addictedtodeer (May 19, 2009)

I think the issue for Calvin is: what is more important music or confession of praise?
In his day the music and chanting took priority over congregational singing. His argument was that corporate worship was  a congregation lifting their voices up in praise to their God.

He was greatly concerned that music would and does distract,or due to emotions, carry us away from reverence and true worship. We will "worship" cause it feels good instead of worshiping because God is worth the worship in all circumstances no matter how we feel.

For a more complete quote of Calvin:
_“I have no doubt that playing upon cymbals, touching the harp and viol, and all that kind of music, which is so frequently mentioned in the Psalms, was a part of the education—that is to say, the puerile instruction of the law. I speak of the stated service of the temple. For even now, if believers choose to cheer themselves with musical instruments, they should, I think, make it their object not to dissever their cheerfulness from the praises of God. But when they frequent their sacred assemblies, musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting up of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists, therefore, have foolishly borrowed this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostle is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (1 Cor. 14:16). The voice of man, although not understood by the generality, assuredly excels all inanimate instruments of music; and yet we see what Paul determines concerning speaking in an unknown tongue. What shall we then say of chanting, which fills the ears with nothing but an empty sound? Does any one object that music is very useful for awakening the minds of men and moving their hearts? I own it; but *we should always take care that no corruption creep in, which might both defile the pure worship of God, and involve men in superstition. *Moreover, since the Holy Spirit expressly warns us of this danger by the mouth of Paul, to proceed beyond what we are there warranted by him is not only, I must say, unadvised zeal, but wicked and perverse obstinacy.” _(Calvin on Psalm 33).

For more quotes from Calvin on instruments in worship click here.

Here is a link exploring and explaining why Calvin formed his views.

We must always remember that these men are fallible and relied on the infallibility of scripture to base their opinions. When we disagree with them we owe them the courtesy of defending our beliefs the same way, basing it on scripture not on emotion or opinion.

I for one struggle greatly with Calvin's view.  I have seen many times were music and feelings trump scripture and the exposition of God's word; therefore, I always pause and wonder if Calvin and others were on to something.


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## reformedpastor (May 19, 2009)

Jeff Phillips said:


> Keeping it in the context of this thread; I believe that Paul would accept instruments in worship IF it brought the lost to the Lord. I believe Paul would have used Christian Rock if it saved lost souls! He would have used ALL MEANS to reach the lost!
> 
> We probably need a new thread for the homosexual question, but I believe Christ would have spent more time in the homosexual community than in our Churches if he were walking the earth today. To most Christians gays are the lepers of our time.
> 
> Jesus said: "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."



Here's a problem. Is worship for the lost???

Some groups believe their whole existence is to win the lost. But this is wrong. They first priority is God, glorify and enjoying and knowing Him. This is primary. 

Worship isn't for the purpose of winning the lost its for praising, honoring and ascribing glory to God, it should please Him and Him alone and Christians should conform to what pleases God. This is called sanctification- growing more and more in time to a greater conformity in what God loves and hates.


This doesn't mean that folks don't become converted in worship services but it does mean that God alone is the focus and object of worship not the unconverted.


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## reformedpastor (May 19, 2009)

addictedtodeer said:


> I think the issue for Calvin is: what is more important music or confession of praise?
> In his day the music and chanting took priority over congregational singing. His argument was that corporate worship was  a congregation lifting their voices up in praise to their God.
> 
> He was greatly concerned that music would and does distract,or due to emotions, carry us away from reverence and true worship. We will "worship" cause it feels good instead of worshiping because God is worth the worship in all circumstances no matter how we feel.
> ...



Good post. It is funny how men are drawn to those things of lest importance. I will only add a thought to Calvin's comment about the human voice excelling all instrumentation. I guess it depends of who playing the instrument and who's doing the singing. 

We should all desire to do what God commands and guard what we offer up to Him.


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## Banjo (May 19, 2009)

Are our churches to be god-centered or man-centered?  If we are using music to draw the lost....is that focusing on the worship of God?  What if we are using the music to achieve some kind of emotional high?

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## Madman (May 19, 2009)

Rev 5:6    And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7  And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8  And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11  And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12  Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13  And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Worship is abut Him not about us.  

Does the worship glorify God or does it simply entertain the masses?  Is the service God centered or preacher centered?  Does the parish understand they are there to worship the risen Lord or are they there for the entertainment?    Does the "choir" come to worship with their voice or be part of the entertainment?  

Is the pulpit in center of the church or off to the side.  What is the focal point, the preacher, the drummer, the singers, or Christ?

Worship is for the believer.


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## Huntinfool (May 19, 2009)

crackerdave said:


> Cornelia Hiker - were did you learn that info about Jesus and His harp? I have never heard of that,and have always been interested in knowing more about the early life of our Lord.



from the Urantia Book...


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## Huntinfool (May 19, 2009)

Let's refocus here people.  We're not talking comtemporary vs. traditional.

This thread is about ANY instruments in worship.  There is no distinction to the men who said the things in the OP is there?


BTW....I love a good old fashioned camp meeting with some old time hymns.  But I also had a ringing in my ears this past sunday when I go done playing those drums!  It was rockin'.  It was awesome....and God was pleased with that worship.


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## Cornelia_Hiker (May 19, 2009)

Thank you Huntinfool

There ya go CrackerDave

The most complete and actually very comprehensive record of the life and teachings of Jesus that we have available to us today is found in The Urantia Book. Don't even have to buy one, the entire text is available online at several sites. Here is just two:

http://www.urantia.org

http://www.truthbook.com

Enjoy!


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## WTM45 (May 19, 2009)

It's really a non-issue, I think.
Find a church that offers what you are looking for. 
Should not be difficult, as there are so many to choose from. 
Then join up.  Simple.


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## Madman (May 19, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> from the Urantia Book...



"A Brief Description of The Urantia Book...

The Urantia Book, first published by Urantia Foundation in 1955, claims to have been presented by celestial beings as a revelation to our planet, Urantia. Many who have read it accept this assertion. "


I seem to have misplaced my tin foil hat.


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## addictedtodeer (May 19, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> I guess it depends of who playing the instrument and who's doing the singing.
> AMEN! I make a joyful noise.
> 
> We should all desire to do what God commands and guard what we offer up to Him.



Yes! That is my struggle what does God command?
I wish the divines had dealt with corporate singing a bit more in the WCF: "singing of psalms with grace in the heart;[20]"
[20]
_ COL 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 
EPH 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord. 
JAM 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms._


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## Double Barrel BB (May 19, 2009)

Jeff Phillips said:


> We probably need a new thread for the homosexual question, but I believe Christ would have spent more time in the homosexual community than in our Churches if he were walking the earth today. To most Christians gays are the lepers of our time.
> 
> Jesus said: "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."


 
Yes, Jesus would witness to the Homosexuals, but he would NEVER condone their lifestyle... as so many so-called Christians today have...

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (May 19, 2009)

addictedtodeer said:


> _*we should always take care that no corruption creep in, which might both defile the pure worship of god, and involve men in superstition.*_


 
*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Oldstick (May 19, 2009)

I might agree with the quotes from the OP when it comes to the organ (or harp).

Save that stuff for funeral homes..


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## johnnylightnin (May 19, 2009)

The only suitable instruments for worship are the harp, the lyre, and anything played by Striper on the _To He11 with the Devil_ LP.


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## pigpen1 (May 19, 2009)

Madman said:


> "A Brief Description of The Urantia Book...
> 
> The Urantia Book, first published by Urantia Foundation in 1955, claims to have been presented by celestial beings as a revelation to our planet, Urantia. Many who have read it accept this assertion. "
> 
> ...


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## Madman (May 19, 2009)

I found it!!

My BIBLE had squished it flat.


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## reformedpastor (May 19, 2009)

addictedtodeer said:


> Yes! That is my struggle what does God command?
> I wish the divines had dealt with corporate singing a bit more in the WCF: "singing of psalms with grace in the heart;[20]"
> [20]
> _ COL 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
> ...




Nowhere in the OT are we ever commanded to sing "the" Psalms or Psalms (150) proper. The same Hebrew word that is used to translate psalm is also translated praise. 

1Ch 16:9  Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him, talk ye of all his wondrous works. 

Also notice in the Westminster Confession they seem to be particular in capitalizing Psalm in referring to the Psalms as a book but not when referencing the idea of praise.

This is off the top of my head, I could go back and dig up notes and give you a better understanding of the Hebrew word for Psalm if needed or desired.


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## Lowjack (May 19, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Isn't it interesting that instruments were certainly used by the Jews, but history shows that instruments were never used by the apostles in the early church.  Matter of fact, instruments weren't allowed into the church until the 3rd or 4th century.  And only then after much argument.  Even then, very few churches would allow them.


Sorry I doubt that very much, Given that the churches Met in Jewish Synagogues , where Music was always played, I doubt very much ,that The Apostles did not participate of Singing and dancing within the Synagogue services.
By the 3rd And 4th century the Church of The Apostles was a different institution all together and anti-semitic tones rang loudly.


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## Lowjack (May 19, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> Nowhere in the OT are we ever commanded to sing "the" Psalms or Psalms (150) proper. The same Hebrew word that is used to translate psalm is also translated praise.
> 
> 1Ch 16:9  Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him, talk ye of all his wondrous works.
> 
> ...



Better research that a little more, specially your Hebrew understanding.

The Book of Psalms can actually be divided into five categories of poetry compiled into one book for the Bible. Many people find the Psalms confusing but there is order to them and there are important messages for us in them. The Psalms can be looked at as the hymnbook of the Israelites. They are poems intended for public presentation, usually accompanied by music. 


Since they were intended to be performed, the themes of the Psalms are ones that would have been important to their audience. The themes are emotions, causes, and plights common to the group but are also prayers and praises to the same God. 



The first book of the Psalms consists of Psalm 1 through 41. These are attributed to David, they are either written by him or for him. Most of these Psalms deal with the condition of man. Their themes show man as blessed by God, separated by sin and redeemed by God. 


The hymns are not ordered by theme, but the predominate themes within each group do shine through. In the first Psalm we see that our blessing comes from obedience. “Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.” (Psalms 1:1-2) 


By our sin, we are separated from God. All of humanity carries the disease of sin. “The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” (Psalm 14:2-3) The psalmist isn’t saying that we aren’t capable of any good, only that we are not capable of the perfect good that God originally intended. Because of the fall, all of us are separated from Him. 


Despite our sin, God still desires a relationship with us. In His mercy, He provides us with salvation. We are redeemed from death by His grace. “O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.” (Psalms 30:3) 


The second book of Psalms consists of Psalm 42 through 72. There are varied authors for these Psalms, David, the Sons of Korah (the temple musicians), Asaph and one by Solomon (Psalm 72). These Psalms deal with the condition of the nation of Israel. Repeated themes appear showing Israel as God’s chosen people, Israel as a ruined nation and Israel as a restored nation. Keep in mind that Israel often serves as a metaphor for the Church and individual Christians. 


Chosen by God as His people, the nation of Israel is favored by Him. “For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favor unto them.” (Psalms 44:3) God provides Israel a homeland, a place of their salvation. 


Yet, the Israelites have short memories (as do we) and they forget by Who’s Grace they have been saved. Over and over again the Israelites suffer ruin because they turn away from God. They cry out to God while suffering under oppression. “I will say unto God my rock, Why hast thou forgotten me? why go I mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?” (Psalms 42:9) 


God is faithful to forgive a repentant Israel. “Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.” (Psalms 51:12) When the Israelites repent, God restores them. “O God, thou art terrible out of thy holy places: the God of Israel is he that giveth strength and power unto his people. Blessed be God.” (Psalms 68:35) 


The third book of the Psalms contains hymns dealing with themes about the Tabernacle and God’s holiness. These include Psalm 73 through 89. They were written for the most part by Asaph. 


The Tabernacle is the House of God and sacred. Spending time working in the Tabernacle is a joy, just as working for our churches should be a joy. That joy is expressed in many of the Psalms of this section. “For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.” (Psalms 84:10) 


The fourth book of Psalms are concerned with Israel’s relationship with other nations. They remind Israel that its people are citizens of God’s Kingdom, which is greater than any kingdom on earth. They are composed mostly by unknown authors and encompass Psalm 90 through 106. Seeing God on the ultimate throne and as our Ultimate Ruler keeps earthly problems in perspective. “For thou, LORD, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.” (Psalms 97:9) 


The fifth book of Psalms is about God and His precious Word. They are hymns of praise, worship and thanksgiving. Composed mostly by David, they include Psalm 107 through 150. These Psalms are uplifting and joyous but remind us too that without God, we have nothing. 


Songs of praise and worship fill this fifth section. In praise our spirits are uplifted and the peace and joy that can be found only in loving God are found. Perhaps this is why the Psalms include so many verses of praise. “O praise the LORD, all ye nations: praise him, all ye people. 2 For his merciful kindness is great toward us: and the truth of the LORD endureth forever. Praise ye the LORD.” (Psalms 117:1-2) 


Thanksgiving is our act of gratitude to God for all that He has done for us. In giving thanks, we acknowledge His mercy, protection, provision and love. The Psalms are filled with songs of thanksgiving, prayers of gratitude that enumerate God’s mercy and forgiveness. “O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.” (Psalms 136:1) No matter what we are going through, we shouldn’t forget to thank God. Giving thanks, like praise and worship, fill us with joy and peace. 


The Psalms are the hymns of Israel and they can be our personal hymns, too. No matter what life holds for us at any particular moment, we can find a Psalm that soothes, strengthens, encourages, enlightens or uplifts us. This introduction is only one way of categorizing the Psalms. They may be sorted by theme, they can be sorted by author or they can be sorted by significance to any situation. One thing is certain though, as you explore them, many will become personal and favored, offering peace at every recollection. 

Alephperes@truthseekers.com


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## reformedpastor (May 19, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Better research that a little more, specially your Hebrew understanding.



I have.


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## ToLog (May 19, 2009)

crackerdave said:


> One could even proclaim "Acoustic instruments ONLY!"
> Or did they have electricity in the Old Testament days,and I missed it?
> 
> Brother roothog - your testimony is needed here!
> ...



Heh RD, i mean CD. sorry.

anyways, have heard some good "stick" music before. when the tapper gets to hitting the right "lick" and the vocals blend in, it's an eye-opener, for sure. 

the trick is that stick has to be well-seasoned, and hitting just right on the floorboards. i believe.

when that thumpin' gets to going, no other physical instrument is needed, only the vocal accompaniment. if the Holy Spirit doesn't show Herself in that moment, there'd be something amiss.


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## reformedpastor (May 19, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Better research that a little more, specially your Hebrew understanding.
> 
> The Book of Psalms can actually be divided into five categories of poetry compiled into one book for the Bible. Many people find the Psalms confusing but there is order to them and there are important messages for us in them. The Psalms can be looked at as the hymnbook of the Israelites. They are poems intended for public presentation, usually accompanied by music.
> 
> ...





Ok- Thanks for the post. I love the Psalms and find much encouragement there but my point is, that was not the only thing Israel sung in worship nor should it be the only thing we sing in worship.


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## THREEJAYS (May 19, 2009)

I have know problem with them.


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## Ronnie T (May 19, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Sorry I doubt that very much, Given that the churches Met in Jewish Synagogues , where Music was always played, I doubt very much ,that The Apostles did not participate of Singing and dancing within the Synagogue services.
> By the 3rd And 4th century the Church of The Apostles was a different institution all together and anti-semitic tones rang loudly.



The following site contains some interesting information about early church thinking and motives.

http://www.bible.ca/H-music.htm


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## Lowjack (May 19, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> The following site contains some interesting information about early church thinking and motives.
> 
> http://www.bible.ca/H-music.htm


I don't consider those , the Fathers of The church ,IMHO
They were Christian Gentiles Seeking their own Identity, I believe in the Primitive Church of Jerusalem as the mother Church.


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## Ronnie T (May 19, 2009)

I suspect verses like John 4 had a lot to do with early christians not allowing instruments to accompany worship of God.

John 4:19The woman said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 
20"Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship." 
21Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 
22"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 
23"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 
24"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."


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## Ronnie T (May 19, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> I don't consider those , the Fathers of The church ,IMHO
> They were Christian Gentiles Seeking their own Identity, I believe in the Primitive Church of Jerusalem as the mother Church.



Oh!  Okay.


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## pigpen1 (May 19, 2009)

roothog said:


> Heh RD, i mean CD. sorry.
> 
> anyways, have heard some good "stick" music before. when the tapper gets to hitting the right "lick" and the vocals blend in, it's an eye-opener, for sure.
> 
> ...



 The Holy Spirit should not be referred to as a Her, He is part of the Trinity. The Church is the Bride, it is referred to as a her.


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## crackerdave (May 19, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Sorry I doubt that very much, Given that the churches Met in Jewish Synagogues , where Music was always played, I doubt very much ,that The Apostles did not participate of Singing and dancing within the Synagogue services.
> By the 3rd And 4th century the Church of The Apostles was a different institution all together and anti-semitic tones rang loudly.



I see your popcorn,and I'll raise ya two:

Speaking of anti-semitic - I've not seen a good Jew-bashin' on this forum yet!


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## Ronnie T (May 20, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Sorry I doubt that very much, Given that the churches Met in Jewish Synagogues , where Music was always played, I doubt very much ,that The Apostles did not participate of Singing and dancing within the Synagogue services.
> By the 3rd And 4th century the Church of The Apostles was a different institution all together and anti-semitic tones rang loudly.



I'm not familiar with any historical evidence that "A Church Congregation" met in the Jewish Synagogue and conducted their worship service, which included taking the Lord's Supper.  There's also no evidence that the Jews allowed Jewish Christians to utilize the Synagogue musicians or their instruments.  The unconverted Jews certainly wouldn't have allowed that.
It is true that Christians were to the Synagogue, but they went to teach Christ.
The early church met where ever they could.  Including homes.
Maybe you know something I don't.
It wouldn't be the first time it's happened to me.


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## Leroys Dakota (May 20, 2009)

I have seen the Holy Spirit move at the beckoning of a full band too many times to believe that musical instruments are not supposed to be used.


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## crackerdave (May 20, 2009)

Leroys Dakota said:


> I have seen the Holy Spirit move at the beckoning of a full band too many times to believe that musical instruments are not supposed to be used.





I would think,though,that teenagers would have to be careful not to get to the point where they're worshiping the music or the players - instead of God.


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## crackerdave (May 20, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I'm not familiar with any historical evidence that "A Church Congregation" met in the Jewish Synagogue and conducted their worship service, which included taking the Lord's Supper.  There's also no evidence that the Jews allowed Jewish Christians to utilize the Synagogue musicians or their instruments.  The unconverted Jews certainly wouldn't have allowed that.
> It is true that Christians were to the Synagogue, but they went to teach Christ.
> The early church met where ever they could.  Including homes.
> Maybe you know something I don't.
> It wouldn't be the first time it's happened to me.



I'm clearly just a dumb cracker,but - I thought a church and a synagogue were pretty much the same thing.They're both listed under "Churches" - at least, in MY yaller pages.


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## Lowjack (May 20, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I'm not familiar with any historical evidence that "A Church Congregation" met in the Jewish Synagogue and conducted their worship service, which included taking the Lord's Supper.  There's also no evidence that the Jews allowed Jewish Christians to utilize the Synagogue musicians or their instruments.  The unconverted Jews certainly wouldn't have allowed that.
> It is true that Christians were to the Synagogue, but they went to teach Christ.
> The early church met where ever they could.  Including homes.
> Maybe you know something I don't.
> It wouldn't be the first time it's happened to me.


The Evidence is there starting in acts Chapter 2, The beleivers were meeting in synagogues as we believers in Messiah do today.
They Met in Homes and eventually created a synagogue system, as we see in acts they took care of the poor and the Widows as was usual custom for organized synagogues to do, they kept the Jewish feasts and the Law of God.
Peter and Silas went to a synagogue Called The Beautifull and there they healed the Crippled man and also preached to about 3,000, so this shows them still moving within the Jewish system of synagogues and teaching there.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ng...5bSTBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5

The church did not begin in 300-360 AD.


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## crackerdave (May 20, 2009)

More and more I hear of folks getting back to having church in their homes.


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## Ronnie T (May 20, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> The church did not begin in 300-360 AD.



You better clarify that because you know that isn't true as you have written it.


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## Banjo (May 20, 2009)

> The church did not begin in 300-360 AD.



I thought Adam and Eve were part of the church?


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## Spotlite (May 20, 2009)

formula1 said:


> No wonder worship is so boring at some of these churches!






Ronnie T said:


> But why would early church leaders and those men listed in post #1 be so against instruments??
> That's what I'd like to know.



Depends on why they are against it. Would it be scripture or their own way of thinking of how the scripture should read??


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## Madman (May 20, 2009)

Spotlite said:


> Depends on why they are against it. Would it be scripture or their own way of thinking of how the scripture should read??



They are PROTEST-ANTS they are against everything.


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## pigpen1 (May 20, 2009)

Madman said:


> They are PROTEST-ANTS they are against everything.



 Is that name calling? are you trying to start a Catholic vs Protestant argument? sure sounds like it to me.


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## Lowjack (May 20, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> You better clarify that because you know that isn't true as you have written it.


When Did The Church Began for you and where ?


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## pigpen1 (May 20, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> When Did The Church Began for you and where ?



 Well Moses was in it...

Acts 7:37-38

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
KJV


 And if the church didn't start until Acts Ch2, who was Christ speaking of here in Matt 18?

Matt 18:17

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
KJV


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## Madman (May 20, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Is that name calling? are you trying to start a Catholic vs Protestant argument? sure sounds like it to me.



Yep.  Then I'm going to stand outside and watch.


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## Spotlite (May 20, 2009)

Madman said:


> Yep.  Then I'm going to stand outside and watch.


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## Ronnie T (May 20, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> When Did The Church Began for you and where ?





Acts Chap. 2


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## jmharris23 (May 20, 2009)

18:15-20. The Lord had just spoken about offenses; now He talked about what should be done when known sin occurs. When a brother sins against another, the two of them should discuss the matter. If the matter can be settled at that level, there is no need for it to go any further. But if the sinning brother refuses to listen . . . two or three witnesses should be taken along for a clear testimony. This was in keeping with Old Testament precedents, as in Deuteronomy 19:15. If the sinning brother still failed to recognize his error, the situation should be told before the entire church, or “assembly.” The disciples probably would have understood Jesus to mean the matter should be brought before the Jewish assembly. After the establishment of the church, on the day of Pentecost, these words would have had greater meaning for them.
Walvoord, John F. ;  Zuck, Roy B. ;   Dallas Theological Seminary: The Bible Knowledge Commentary : An Exposition of the Scriptures. Wheaton, IL : Victor Books, 1983-c1985, S. 2:62


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## whchunter (May 20, 2009)

*Hmmmm*

On this rock I will build my Church


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## Huntinfool (May 20, 2009)

Anybody wanna talk about instruments in church still?


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## jmharris23 (May 20, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Anybody wanna talk about instruments in church still?



Why? That ain't no fun


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## Huntinfool (May 20, 2009)

Excellent point man....



Carry on y'all.  Carry on.




So I was recently told that the Vatican is LITERALLY built "on this rock".

Anybody think that's what he really meant?


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## PWalls (May 20, 2009)

Instruments as an "aid to" worship instead of a "detraction from" worship should be the key. If you go just to hear the organ and piano melodies, then stay home and listen to opera or something. But, if that piano melody lifts your soul while you sing to the Lord then it has accomplished what you need from it. The sound coming from the musical instrument is not the issue. The heart of the worshipper is.


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## earl (May 20, 2009)

What an odd thing to say.
If you go just to hear the organ and piano melodies, then stay home and listen to opera or something.


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## PWalls (May 20, 2009)

earl said:


> What an odd thing to say.
> If you go just to hear the organ and piano melodies, then stay home and listen to opera or something.
> 
> Church is about Worship. It is not about a concert or piano recital. Personally, I love to sing at Church and believe me, the people around me are glad of the piano and organ accompiment if you know what I mean. But, I go to Church because I go to Worship. I go to hear a sermon and be moved by the Word. I do not go just because I like to hear piano music. If that is what you are going for, then you might as well stay home.


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## Leroys Dakota (May 21, 2009)

crackerdave said:


> I would think,though,that teenagers would have to be careful not to get to the point where they're worshiping the music or the players - instead of God.



I've been the worship leader for a youth group for a year or so, and I've seen some great worship services where the Holy Spirit just took the whole service and we saw renewal like nothing before. I've also seen services that have been a complete flop, when the teenagers just didn't seem to give a crap. 

But what I was talking about was Sunday morning services in "big church."  I played bass for the Sunday morning band for our church where I've seen the Hand of God do things I thought I'd never see.  I've seen God do things in the lives of man during worship services that I don't believe could have been done in any other setting. So what if the minister of music in Heaven got kicked out... Isn't God bigger than that?


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## Leroys Dakota (May 21, 2009)

PWalls said:


> earl said:
> 
> 
> > What an odd thing to say.
> ...


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## WTM45 (May 21, 2009)

Good music gets the offering plate in front of more wallets and purses.


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## crackerdave (May 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Good music gets the offering plate in front of more wallets and purses.



Purty much what I expected from you,sir. It's all about money,right?


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## WTM45 (May 21, 2009)

crackerdave said:


> Purty much what I expected from you,sir. It's all about money,right?




The bills have to be paid, I openly admit.


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## Ronnie T (May 21, 2009)

With or without music, a spiritual connection with God and the act of properly worshiping God during worship have nothing to do with instruments.  If it takes an organ, piano, guitar, trumpet for you to "connect" with God.......... you simply aren't connecting with God.


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## g-man (May 21, 2009)

Worship at it's core is an act of the heart.  We use instruments to facilitate and express this.  It always amazes me that individuals and churches who are against instruments in the church have no problem with using electricity during their services. And I have yet to find a basis in scriptures for chandeliers and air conditioning.


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## christianhunter (May 21, 2009)

Sermon's or Song's.Musical instruments or not.Praise an ALMIGHTY GOD in everything we do.


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## pigpen1 (May 21, 2009)

g-man said:


> Worship at it's core is an act of the heart.  We use instruments to facilitate and express this.  It always amazes me that individuals and churches who are against instruments in the church have no problem with using electricity during their services. And I have yet to find a basis in scriptures for chandeliers and air conditioning.



 Yep, and I ain't read where the early Church had indoor toliets I guess its time to rebuild the outhouse. Ronnie you bring the corn cobs, I prefer red and white cobs...


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## Oldstick (May 21, 2009)

Chandelier?  We don't need a chandelier.  First, don't anybody know how to play it and second, we don't need to waste all that money on instruments as bad as we need new lights in the church...  Hawwww!!





I apologize... I couldn't resist as it was starting to remind me of that Jerry Clower joke.


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## Ronnie T (May 21, 2009)

g-man said:


> Worship at it's core is an act of the heart.  We use instruments to facilitate and express this. .



I do not condemn the use of instruments being used during worship but I don't see why a heart would need instruments to facilitate and express worship to God.

Jesus said: John 4:  23"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 
24"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." 


An instrument cannot help you do that.

People have instruments in worship because that's what they enjoy.  But at least be honest about it.


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## crackerdave (May 21, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Is that name calling? are you trying to start a Catholic vs Protestant argument? sure sounds like it to me.



Nah- just another ant.


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## Ronnie T (May 21, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Yep, and I ain't read where the early Church had indoor toliets I guess its time to rebuild the outhouse. Ronnie you bring the corn cobs, I prefer red and white cobs...



I got to be honest, I think I've gotten too old to use a cob.


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## crackerdave (May 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> The bills have to be paid, I openly admit.



You're 100% right! 
 There's a real big bill coming due very soon for every one of us.It can't be paid by money,though.Only faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ will pay this one - plastic won't git it!


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## g-man (May 21, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> An instrument cannot help you do that.
> 
> People have instruments in worship because that's what they enjoy.  But at least be honest about it.



Not really trying to start an argument. This is just my opinion and opinions are like armpits.  Everyone has a couple and they usually stink.  As a musician who has dedicated the last 20 years to worship I disagree.  I use my piano and guitar to express my heart and love for the Lord.


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## g-man (May 21, 2009)

Ronnie T. you are right, you don't need music to express worship.  My problem is with the people that think we are wrong to use our instruments.  When I traveled professionally, we performed at a mennonite church in Ohio that did not have instruments in the church.  I could not understand why they invited us as we did use them.  I asked the pastor why they did not have a piano or something.  He said they just never really thought about.  When they sang as a church in their worship service it was amazing despite it being acapella.


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## reformedpastor (May 21, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I do not condemn the use of instruments being used during worship but I don't see why a heart would need instruments to facilitate and express worship to God.
> 
> Jesus said: John 4:  23"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
> 24"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
> ...



No doubt true worship is in Spirit and truth. Yet the heart is subjective and only God truly knows it, but, to say instruments can't help........um, not sure about that one. Why did God have instrumentation in the Temple as well in heaven if they don't help the worshiper? Even Earl pointed to voices being instruments. 
We need to be careful of thinking we can be holier than scripture commands. We sing some songs without insturmentaion.  What ever became of offer to God the best we have not the least? 

Also, worship isn't for "man" to do whatever he likes. Only what God has commanded, directly, by example or by inference. Worship is regulated by God or its not acceptable worship. 

Interesting thoughts.


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## jimbo4116 (May 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> It's really a non-issue, I think.
> Find a church that offers what you are looking for.
> Should not be difficult, as there are so many to choose from.
> Then join up.  Simple.



Sounds like reasonable advice.  Something you and I can agree on.  

Grew up in a congregation that forbade musical instruments in any services.  I was surprised later on how much muisic intrumentation moved me.  There are few things more moving than a good rendition of How Great Thou Art on the organ, but a good acupela version does the same.  But the organ does help those of us with a squeaky voice hide our shortcomings while allowing us to join in.




WTM45 said:


> Good music gets the offering plate in front of more wallets and purses.



And as we all no God moves in mysterious ways.



g-man said:


> Not really trying to start an argument. This is just my opinion and opinions are like armpits.  Everyone has a couple and they usually stink.  As a musician who has dedicated the last 20 years to worship I disagree.  I use my piano and guitar to express my heart and love for the Lord.



My opinion is that if God is going to deny you entrance into heaven because you played the piano while you sang in your  efforts to bring others to him, then many of us are going to be sorely dissapointed at the Pearly Gates.


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## Doyle (May 21, 2009)

I believe that there is a distinct difference between using music for respectful praise and worship and turning the service into a rock concert where you need to wear ear plugs.  Unfortunately, far too may churches are going the direction of the latter.


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## Ronnie T (May 21, 2009)

g-man said:


> Not really trying to start an argument. This is just my opinion and opinions are like armpits.  Everyone has a couple and they usually stink.  As a musician who has dedicated the last 20 years to worship I disagree.  I use my piano and guitar to express my heart and love for the Lord.




I pray that God accepts it.
And that's my last word on the subject.
I think you deserve the last word.
God bless.


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## Free Willie (May 22, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> I don't consider those , the Fathers of The church ,IMHO
> They were Christian Gentiles Seeking their own Identity, I believe in the Primitive Church of Jerusalem as the mother Church.



Of course you wouldn't believe that.


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