# Where do we go?



## CAL (Feb 17, 2012)

When a person draws his last breath or dies.What are some opinions or scripture that explains where we go.

I remember the thief on the cross asking Jesus to please remember him when he went to his kingdom and Jesus said to him "Today you will be with me in paradise".

Is paradise heaven? I personally don't think so.What are some other thoughts? Please backup your thoughts.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 17, 2012)

Everyone's witholding opinions because there are conflicting verses.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 17, 2012)

Everything changed when Jesus resurrected and ascended into heaven upon His throne.  At that moment the kingdom begins.

I believe that at the precise moment of death of a Child of God, the Spirit of that child goes to be with the Lord.


Who's next........


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 17, 2012)

If Jesus went to Heaven when he died why did he tell Mary Magdalene, he had yet ascended to his Father?
I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise. The comma was in the wrong place. This would only apply if you thought the Bible could possibly have a few minor mistakes form the centuries of upgrades.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 17, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> If Jesus went to Heaven when he died why did he tell Mary Magdalene, he had yet ascended to his Father?
> I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise. The thief died on a cross during the Old Testament dispensation.  The church was not established until the gospel of eternal life was preached.  Those are my thoughts.
> The comma was in the wrong place. This would only apply if you thought the Bible could possibly have a few minor mistakes form the centuries of upgrades.



Jesus didn't go to heaven when He died.  Jesus went to heaven after he resurrected, met Mary Magdalene, told her not to touch him, then he taught His apostles, then He ascended up into heaven.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks Ronnie, I thought maybe that was one of my unique  views. Amen


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## Ronnie T (Feb 17, 2012)

I guess one day we'll know for sure won't we?


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## mtnwoman (Feb 18, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Jesus didn't go to heaven when He died.  Jesus went to heaven after he resurrected, met Mary Magdalene, told her not to touch him, then he taught His apostles, then He ascended up into heaven.



I agree.

All I know is when I die, that my next conscious moment I will be with Christ. I may go directly to heaven or I may sleep for a while (and the dead in Christ shall rise first). So whichever way it goes, I'm happy. I'd rather believe I go straight to heaven, but I don't know...but it's all good.

Paradise was a precurser to heaven....ie all the ot folk, I believe they waited in paradise because there was no straight route to heaven (Jesus). I just don't know now, but it doesn't matter to me. I'll be crossing Jordan and going home with a big ol' shout either way.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 18, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> I guess one day we'll know for sure won't we?



Yes we will....hallelujah


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## gordon 2 (Feb 18, 2012)

I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

john15;5
......................
If a criminal can say remember me when you come into your kingdom he has great faith. A thief knows by instinct where is  another's weath. It is not hidden to him.

Then we, brothers and sisters in the Kingdom, who have been forgiven our sins and our crimes and come into the  Lord's Kingdom for grace---we should see for it and from it paradise for the strength of our faith, just as the thief did in his consideration of our Christ see the kingdom.

I think this is what the thief saw, he saw the kingdom and Jesus saw for it paradise. That is the vision offered for the kingdom: paradise.
..................
Now is paradise a synonym for heaven, somehow I don't think so. If we are in Him and Him in us then we have no where to go apart from Him. So when we continue, when  our physical bodies expire, and we continue in Him, we go to Him--- because there is nowhere else to go. Where that is, is everywhere, every place, and every time, that is not apart from Him.

For me heaven is a mystery like a veil or a kerchief worn around the neck can make a women mysterious. Heaven is a veil, something else is wearing it. Don't know why it just feels that way.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 18, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I agree.
> 
> All I know is when I die, that my next conscious moment I will be with Christ. I may go directly to heaven or I may sleep for a while (and the dead in Christ shall rise first). So whichever way it goes, I'm happy. I'd rather believe I go straight to heaven, but I don't know...but it's all good.
> 
> Paradise was a precurser to heaven....ie all the ot folk, I believe they waited in paradise because there was no straight route to heaven (Jesus). I just don't know now, but it doesn't matter to me. I'll be crossing Jordan and going home with a big ol' shout either way.


Amen


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 18, 2012)

To backup my thoughts on waiting for the resurrection to go to heaven:
Ecclesiastes 9:5

King James Version (KJV)

 5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Psalms 146:4
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Jesus didn't go anywhere either until he was resurrected by GOD. I use to wonder how he got out of that tomb if he was God.
Matthew 12:40
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The next verse shows you don't go to He33 when you die either!
John 5:28–29

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
What would be the point of the above verse if you were already in Heaven or he33?
######################################################There are also verses that would go against soul sleep. I think the best one would be Acts 7: 56-59 about Stephen's murder.
Acts 7:56-59

King James Version (KJV)

 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

 57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

 58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

 59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8

New King James Version (NKJV)

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

I Peter 3:19-20
1 Peter 3:19-20

English Standard Version (ESV)

19 in which[a] he went and proclaimed* to the spirits in prison, 20 because[c] they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
I Peter 4:6
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
This last verse needs to be moved to the "for soul sleep verses list". Reason being, if you are going to preach to someone who is dead, wouldn't it make sense that they couldn't already be in Heaven or He33?*


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## gordon 2 (Feb 19, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> To backup my thoughts on waiting for the resurrection to go to heaven:
> Ecclesiastes 9:5
> 
> King James Version (KJV)
> ...


*

Just a spin on this: The dead here might not be bodies who's diaphrams no longer pump the lungs or a hundred thousand years of ancestors. Just the opposite for these, the dead who are doomed to their judgement, their hearts pump to beat the band and are not, were never reconciled to God!

 Example: I was good as dead before I was ministered to by my Lord, even as I heard the good news. Once apon a time I heard it according to all men in the flesh and I was judged according to men in the flesh and who's judgement is death. But then after my choice to hold on to grace, to say yes to the Holy Spirit, to just hold onto the hem of my Lord's coat, I now live according to God in the spirit.

Now had you known me before and after except for an ageing body, I am most likely the same in apearance, but for God in whom I am now found, judgement and death are no longer  in me. The sting of death and indeed judgement has been drawn from me by the Lord's salve. If I am bold it is because Jesus is bold, not because I crave judgement. In the Lord I don't have a bucket list, cause their ain't no bucket to kick.

I guess my friend what I am saying is that we are the dead, caged in by judgement, to whom the gospel is preached that we many be born again to a new life and be rid of all blame and our tresspasses forgotten.  Now loved, no longer judged or to the judgement, we are repatriated and reconciled--branches grafted to and from the tree of life--our Lord.*


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 19, 2012)

Gordon, I would say your spin is correct because once you are dead as in "taking your last breath" it's too late to repent so preaching is too late. 
What's your spin on Jesus preaching to spirits in prison in 1 Peter 3:18-20?
Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water (1 Peter 3:18-20).
Here is a couple of spins.
Some people believe this passage teaches that during the three days his body was in the tomb, Jesus went into the spirit-world of the imprisoned lost. At that time, according to this theory, the Lord preached the gospel to those who died lost during the time of Noah’s flood.

The passage simply cannot mean this—and for the following reasons:

The Bible clearly teaches that following death, there comes judgment (Hebrews 9:27). After one leaves this earth, there is no plan of salvation for him. The spiritual condition in which a person dies (prepared or unprepared) is that which he will possess at the time of the general resurrection (cf. Matthew 25:1-12). There is absolutely no evidence that there is a second chance for redemption following death.
The next interpretation:
That's what happens when we come to real truth in letting God interpret His own word, rather than making private interpretations. It all fits together marvelously throughout God's word like a gigantic picture puzzle with every piece perfectly snug in place 'signifying' that it is true. God's word testifies of itself that it is true, via the Holy Spirit. These for whom Christ died are the spirits in prison that 1st Peter says He went and preached to "by" His death and resurrection. That's the Key. By His death and resurrection. Read the context. This is how He preached deliverance unto spirits in prison. He spoiled the house of Satan by His death and resurrection. It was done "once for all at the cross." And that's what 1st Peter tells us. Truth discovered in scripture comes from following it faithfully, not in attempting to lead it (Proverbs 25:2).


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## gordon 2 (Feb 19, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Gordon, I would say your spin is correct because once you are dead as in "taking your last breath" it's too late to repent so preaching is too late.
> What's your spin on Jesus preaching to spirits in prison in 1 Peter 3:18-20?
> Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water (1 Peter 3:18-20).
> Here is a couple of spins.
> ...



My dear brother and friend. I wonder if sometimes in our earnest to know what is right that we ask what the Lord said is not for some to know or perhaps not nessesary to know.

In the acts of the apostles the deciples ask " Lord is it at this time you are restoring the kingdom to Isreal?" Jesus answers, "It is not for you to know times or epochs...."

I wonder if our questions and in our eagerness to learn the things of the Lord,  in our questions and studies  on judgement, heaven and the kingdom we are not really asking about "times and epochs"? If we are we are asking from our carnal nature.

So what is to know about these things?  They should hold our attention in the word yes, but more so our attention to these things in Christ and in our reconciliation to God's spirit and will. Reconciliation does not give us revelations of times and epochs, but rather it reveals the power of God and the power given to us through God's sharing with us His Holy Spirit.

So what are the power of these things? They are powerful and purposeful only if we look at them from the perspective of God. They vault us beyond time and epocks and into life with Him, who was, is and will be in time and beyond time.

Now this is the respect I have for scripture. I would rather have lived holding the cotton seed that slipped my hands and into the ground that made the cotton batting that Noah ramed home to water thight his ark than braid the this and thats of judgements, heavens and paradises in the hopes of being lead by scripture. From the time that tiny seed left my fingers and hit the ferrow, that time was enough to be an epock, but in the spirit it was just friends humming along?

 It was not the word that gave me life, even dead I heard it and thought I knew it. It was the power of God, throught the Holy Spirit, that gave me life. His ways I seek to follow faithfully and it is from his ways that I try to read scripture.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 19, 2012)

It want be too bad. It will be like sleeping. You sleep 8 hours but it seems like seconds.


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## CAL (Feb 19, 2012)

These are great answers and discussions,thanks to each of you. But,is paradise heaven.If so,why did Jesus not say to the thief "today you will be with me in heaven"?I have a close friend who is a born again Christian. He believes we live with another demission here on earth that no one can see. Does anyone have any thoughts of this?


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## Stealthdiver (Feb 19, 2012)

Well i'm just hoping for this. God created man after himself, correct, well I would think he created earth after heaven. Honestly I could care less about streets of Gold. I love and am much more at peace with hardwood bottoms, dirt roads and the ocean. Might seem silly but i'm hoping for all the good stuff plus more is waiting for us when we get there.  frank


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## JB0704 (Feb 19, 2012)

Stealthdiver said:


> Honestly I could care less about streets of Gold. I love and am much more at peace with hardwood bottoms, dirt roads and the ocean.



I started a thread on this a while back, but the heaven of the Bible sounds......not like "heaven" to a country boy.

If you scroll back a few months you may find some thoughts that were passed along then.

If there is a crystal sea, I hope to be able to fish in the surf.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 19, 2012)

Revelation 21:1
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
This might be the other dimension he is referring to.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 20, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I started a thread on this a while back, but the heaven of the Bible sounds......not like "heaven" to a country boy.
> 
> If you scroll back a few months you may find some thoughts that were passed along then.
> 
> If there is a crystal sea, I hope to be able to fish in the surf.



Next to the stump, near the overhanging tree.

.
.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 20, 2012)

CAL said:


> These are great answers and discussions,thanks to each of you. But,is paradise heaven.If so,why did Jesus not say to the thief "today you will be with me in heaven"?I have a close friend who is a born again Christian. He believes we live with another demission here on earth that no one can see. Does anyone have any thoughts of this?



Yes that demention is "in"-formed by the Holy Spirit. In that demention Shoeless Joe is still pitching and everyone bats .400. The stats and trivia are way-out-there. Number 1 Moses and Matthew 5-6-7  are often coaching, Mark gives the signs, Luke keeps the stats and John tags along. Paul rags the umps and just now Peter is up.

ps. I have a eccentric uncle who says he read the bible top to bottom a few times and according to his understanding--" We are the prisoners of an advanced society."


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## formula1 (Feb 20, 2012)

*Re:*

Interesting read of all these comments.

All men are dead without Christ! Dead men and women walking, that's who we are! Period!  We stand outside of grace and hope.  These don't exist in us.  I was once like this too, hopelessly lost and dead, drowning in the deepest of seas with no chance or hope for another breath of air to fill my lungs. And I didn't even know it just as many you know right now also are completely unaware.

In comes Jesus, and among the many things He spoke, He said to a man, arguably the most knowledgeable teacher and religious leader of the day, 'You must me born again, born of water and of the Spirit, or you cannot enter the Kingdom of God( John 3:5)!'  If then you are in Christ, then the Spirit God is a work in you, though you cannot see the source nor the destination of the Spirit, yet you feel the wind. If you feel that wind at work in you life (His working in you and through you by the Holy Spirit), you have eternal life.  You are no longer dead, but alive in Christ. My person, by faith, drew his last breath on the day that Christ came into my life and poured His Spirit upon me. My life is now hidden with Christ in God(Colossians 3:3).

Most folks see heaven, or paradise, or the Kingdom as out there, or over there, or down there, or on my last physical breath, etc.  But if you can somehow get the picture that you are already dead and alive to Him, maybe, just maybe, God's gift in you may be seen by the dead who must have it (John 3:21)!  This is the Lord's doing (Psalm 118:21-23). We already by the Spirit know what God has given us (1 Cor 2:12).

Maybe I will be thought of as ignoring the question, but not really.  Someone once told me if God does not want you to know something, you will not know.  But He has revealed these things to us that we must know (Romans 8:16).  Adopted, grafted in children, connected forever to the Vine, heirs of God's immeasurable riches in Christ(Ephesians 2:4-7). Isn't that what we need to know and understand about our life in Him?


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## BrowningFan (Feb 20, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I agree.
> 
> All I know is when I die, that my next conscious moment I will be with Christ. I may go directly to heaven or I may sleep for a while (and the dead in Christ shall rise first). So whichever way it goes, I'm happy. I'd rather believe I go straight to heaven, but I don't know...but it's all good.
> 
> Paradise was a precurser to heaven....ie all the ot folk, I believe they waited in paradise because there was no straight route to heaven (Jesus). I just don't know now, but it doesn't matter to me. I'll be crossing Jordan and going home with a big ol' shout either way.



Great Answer . To many scriptures to post with explanations here is a diagram that might help. It was done by Clarence Larkin .... IMO one of the greatest bible minds ever.


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