# Style of church music and church strife. Ridiculous!!



## Hunting Teacher (Nov 16, 2006)

Let me preface this by saying nobody loves the old hymns more than me, but

Some of the leaders in our church including some deacons are up in arms because our worship leader incorporates some "new" music in our service. We have a band that includes keyboard, electric guitar, and drums. The music is really quite mild, for lack of  a better word. If they really want to hear "new" upbeat very loud music, they ought to mosey on over to the young folks service on Monday night. 
Anyway, some people, mostly older, have actually left the church over this. The worship leader has been very good about trying to mix up the music to try and be sure there is a good blend. People are sending him hate mail, it's constantly an issue with no end in sight.
Here's my problem with the whiners. Why are we there?To be made happy by the music that only suits us? If so, then we're wasting our time. We need to be trying to reach people with whatever means necessary. If that means folks like me don't get to listen to our favorite hymns every Sunday then so be it!
Do people really think the only music that can be worshipful  was written before 1900. Quite a few hymns were written to old bar tunes by the way. That's a fact. And the only instruments God deems appropriate are the piano and organ? He doesn't give musical gifts in any other area than those two instruments? Someone can't worship/ praise God through their ability to play guitar or drums?
I think our incoming transitional pastor said it best. Anyone who leaves a church simply because the style of music doesn't suit them has a spiritual issue to deal with, not a music issue.
It's unbelievable to me that people who are supposed to be mature Christians are causing strife in our church over this!! 
Teacher


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## CAL (Nov 16, 2006)

I also prefer the old classic hymns rather than the new up beat contempory type music.This is only an opinion,nothing more or less.I think if someone leaves the church because of the music they are there for the wrong reason maybe.I also enjoy all of the musical instruments.To me organ music is my least favorite.Seems to always remind me of a funeral and unhappy times.We all like different things,I think Harmonica music is quite beautiful but never have heard it in a church service.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 16, 2006)

*Well said, CAL*

My favorite by far is an orchestral music but with all the modern guitars, horns, drums, keyboard etc. The 'blend' is perfect... so long as _the worship team and the leader in particular are in tune with the Spirit of God._

That said, I was just at a new service this past Sunday.  The music, it was a little much for me at first, mostly guitars, and nearly all modern songs. But after a short time I was aware of how wonderfully I entered worship, one amazing song brought tears to my eyes, then another.  I was quite sure then that God was being glorified through this ministry, and the leader was every bit right on in his words and approch to each song.  

So, it was a learning curve for me, I could have left quickly at the first, and judged by the modern sound that it wasn't right.  But I'm glad we stuck around for God to use it, because when it comes to a worship team that are in harmony with the plan of God, an open heart will lead the worshipper into His presence.


Guitars, drums or not!



My humbly submitted 2 pesos


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## Tim L (Nov 16, 2006)

Well...I guess we are lucky; we have to have 3 services (addition still under construction); have traditional hymns with just the piano at 8:15 and 11:15 and contemperary "praise music" at 9:30 with tamperings, drums, guitars, and such...so if you want to base your attendence on the music, you can pick and choose....But I do think it would be ridicoulus for the style of music to be a source of friction; that could really damage your wittness to folks that are not christians and might be trying to find something wrong.....


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## elfiii (Nov 16, 2006)

"Make a joyful noise unto the Lord". And that's all I got to say about that.


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## reylamb (Nov 17, 2006)

Let me just ask this.  If an unsaved man sat outside a bar in Buckhead and sat outside a church with the guitars and drums beating away....would that man know a difference between the music from the bar and from the church?  If the answer is no, does that follow our guidlines of being a unique people and being in the world but not of the world?  It does not matter to me as it is not my church, but my family would not worship in a church where there is little distinction in the music of the church and the music of the world.

As for the statement about reaching people by any means necessary......I could not disagree more.  How about liquor, beer, poker night, strippers, I mean any means necessary right?  Granted I took that to the extreme, but I can list at least 1 dozen churches around the country that offer a bottle of booze to any homeless man that enters their doors for the services.........where does it stop, at what point are we no longer in the world but not of it?


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## Jody Hawk (Nov 17, 2006)

I love it all but I have to have my old hymns. Nothing like singing, When the roll is called up yonder, I'll be there !!!!!!!!!!! I couldn't attend a church that plays only new comtemporary music. We mix it up at our church.


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## Double Barrel BB (Nov 17, 2006)

reylamb said:


> Let me just ask this.  If an unsaved man sat outside a bar in Buckhead and sat outside a church with the guitars and drums beating away....would that man know a difference between the music from the bar and from the church?  If the answer is no, does that follow our guidlines of being a unique people and being in the world but not of the world?  It does not matter to me as it is not my church, but my family would not worship in a church where there is little distinction in the music of the church and the music of the world.
> 
> As for the statement about reaching people by any means necessary......I could not disagree more.  How about liquor, beer, poker night, strippers, I mean any means necessary right?  Granted I took that to the extreme, but I can list at least 1 dozen churches around the country that offer a bottle of booze to any homeless man that enters their doors for the services.........where does it stop, at what point are we no longer in the world but not of it?



AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Jeff Phillips (Nov 17, 2006)

I have attended churches that only sang what was in the hymnal to the piano and organ. I have attended churches that had full bands and really rocked the house, with no hymnal to be found. Both were awesome worship experiences. I like both, can worship in both, and will not look down my nose at either!

Personally, I am more moved by the old hymns, BUT IT AIN'T ABOUT ME!

How far back do we need to go to make the music acceptable? David danced, played the harp, beat a tamborine during worship! Would he be frowned on for not using the organ and piano 

Modern music attracts a younger crowd! How many college age kids are in your church? Twentysomethings? 

Read Corinthians 9:19 - 22


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## PWalls (Nov 17, 2006)

I listen to contemporary Christian music in my truck.

At church I like the piano and organ.

I think it is more about the heart that is in the listeners and the musicians. Can a man express his love for God through a guitar as well as a man could through a piano? Of course.

I also see Rey's point. If the church service sounds like a Metallica concert, then I think that is a little much. We are called to be separate from the world.


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## SBG (Nov 17, 2006)

reylamb said:


> Let me just ask this.  If an unsaved man sat outside a bar in Buckhead and sat outside a church with the guitars and drums beating away....would that man know a difference between the music from the bar and from the church?  If the answer is no, does that follow our guidlines of being a unique people and being in the world but not of the world?  It does not matter to me as it is not my church, but my family would not worship in a church where there is little distinction in the music of the church and the music of the world.
> 
> As for the statement about reaching people by any means necessary......I could not disagree more.  How about liquor, beer, poker night, strippers, I mean any means necessary right?  Granted I took that to the extreme, but I can list at least 1 dozen churches around the country that offer a bottle of booze to any homeless man that enters their doors for the services.........where does it stop, at what point are we no longer in the world but not of it?



Excellent post Rey!


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## Hunting Teacher (Nov 17, 2006)

reylamb said:


> Let me just ask this.  If an unsaved man sat outside a bar in Buckhead and sat outside a church with the guitars and drums beating away
> 
> As for the statement about reaching people by any means necessary......I could not disagree more.  How about liquor, beer, poker night, strippers, I mean any means necessary right?  Granted I took that to the extreme, but I can list at least 1 dozen churches around the country that offer a bottle of booze to any homeless man that enters their doors for the services.........where does it stop, at what point are we no longer in the world but not of it?



Reylamb,
I didn't think it necessary for me to say any means necessary that hold to scripture. But since you're splitting hairs, OK that's obviously what I meant!
As far as the bar example.Many of  the old hymns that you and I love so much were written to bar tunes back when they were created.The writers did so purposefully so people would know the tune and now have worshipful words to sing to them. Research it if you don't believe me.
Exactly what is the "correct, seperate music" for church?The hymns we have deemed worshipful were exactly like the secular music of the time when they were written.
So are we to assume that the only music played in heaven comes from a piano? Show me in scripture where God says one style of music is worshipful and another is inappropriate. 
Folks, it aint about us. If playing contemporary music brings in people young or old, to hear Christ being preached then I am all for it!! 
Teacher


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## HuntinTom (Nov 17, 2006)

reylamb said:


> Let me just ask this.  If an unsaved man sat outside a bar in Buckhead and sat outside a church with the guitars and drums beating away....would that man know a difference between the music from the bar and from the church?



Once he hears the lyrics (Which, in most songs come in pretty quickly), I think there would be a great distinction that could warm the lost/seeking man's heart.  Let's say the music begins with a quick guitar riff similar to a secular song beginning with lyrics such as, _Kick a little wordydirtywordydirtywordydirty - Raise a little wordydirtywordydirtywordydirtywordydirty - Show a little wordydirtywordydirtywordydirty _ --- But now, as the man's ears hear the riff, instead of that he hears, _How great is our God... Sing with me, how Great is our God... And all will see, how Great, oh, how great is our God..._  I think our Great God would be smiling that a lost man's heart was reached through his secular tuned ears to hear the age old message of a Great and wonderful God...

Music within the church has historically been one of the most polarizing subjects the Church has known -- As far as attending a church, I say go where your ears/heart is most ministered to -- But, why must we all think that only OUR style is the style pleasing to God?  His word tells us to make a joyful noise - I think a lost man being found - A blind finally seeing, and one spiritually dead being resurrected through that "noise" is something to lift up and praise our Great God for -- Whether a guitar, organ, drum,  tambourine, or an off-key country choir...  _How great, oh, how Great is our God..._


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## KiltedHiker (Nov 17, 2006)

I know I may look different and most Christians don’t care for me but if they knew my testimony some would change there mind. (Some don’t) lol
I am a Baptist and always have been. Im not always right, but Im trying...

When at Church I like to be in the celebration / spirit, to get my heart in the right place so to say.

 When Im driving I do listen a contemporary Christian station only because I cant find an old gospel station anymore.

 I was told once that a sin was any thing that took your heart / mind away from God.
 Well I smoked in the past and it wasn’t a sin till I ran out one night, and I realized I was chained to them. I needed them and bad.
 I couldn’t get out of church quick enough so I could light up. So I quit.
 I still say to day smoking isn’t a sin, But putting any thing before God is...

 If I cant sit in a church and have any thing in my heart other than fellowship and the Holly Spirit Im not going to stay.
 Im not saying that the music is wrong, its just wrong for me.
Give me the old gospels or Ill Fly Away.  
 They just fill me up.


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## Hunting Teacher (Nov 17, 2006)

HuntinTom said:


> Once he hears the lyrics (Which, in most songs come in pretty quickly), I think there would be a great distinction that could warm the lost/seeking man's heart.  Let's say the music begins with a quick guitar riff similar to a secular song beginning with lyrics such as, _Kick a little wordydirtywordydirtywordydirty - Raise a little wordydirtywordydirtywordydirtywordydirty - Show a little wordydirtywordydirtywordydirty _ --- But now, as the man's ears hear the riff, instead of that he hears, _How great is our God... Sing with me, how Great is our God... And all will see, how Great, oh, how great is our God..._  I think our Great God would be smiling that a lost man's heart was reached through his secular tuned ears to hear the age old message of a Great and wonderful God...
> 
> Music within the church has historically been one of the most polarizing subjects the Church has known -- As far as attending a church, I say go where your ears/heart is most ministered to -- But, why must we all think that only OUR style is the style pleasing to God?  His word tells us to make a joyful noise - I think a lost man being found - A blind finally seeing, and one spiritually dead being resurrected through that "noise" is something to lift up and praise our Great God for -- Whether a guitar, organ, drum,  tambourine, or an off-key country choir...  _How great, oh, how Great is our God..._



Pastor Tom,
Now that'll preach right there! 
Teacher


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## reylamb (Nov 17, 2006)

Hunting Teacher said:


> Reylamb,
> I didn't think it necessary for me to say any means necessary that hold to scripture. But since you're splitting hairs, OK that's obviously what I meant!
> As far as the bar example.Many of  the old hymns that you and I love so much were written to bar tunes back when they were created.The writers did so purposefully so people would know the tune and now have worshipful words to sing to them. Research it if you don't believe me.
> Exactly what is the "correct, seperate music" for church?The hymns we have deemed worshipful were exactly like the secular music of the time when they were written.
> ...



It is about me.  It is my personal conviction and belief that the music in the services should in no way shape or form resemble the bar down the street, it is a position I can justify Biblically.  As such I will one day be held accountable for what I did with those convictions and where I took my family to attend services.  It does not matter to me where you attend services or how those services are held, I am not accountable for that, only myself and how I acted upone my own personal convictions.  If you want to go to a church that rocks out, so be it, it does not affect me in any way shape or form.  However, that does not make me better in God's eyes, it does not mean I think I am more Spiritually enlightened in my eyes, it does not mean I think you are a heathen, it does not mean I cast any judgements against you for your beliefs, it simply means I have a personal conviction in the matter of music and I will be personally held accountable for what I did and how I acted in that conviction.

You are also correct, there is not one Scripture in the Bible that flat out says, no drums, no guitars, no bass, no violins (althought I have heard some violins that were hardly a joyful noise and I wished I could find such a Scripture, which was probably bad of me to think anyway) in church services.  Therefore it is a matter of personal convictions.  My conviction is that alot of the music in churches too closely resembles the world, and it is my conviction that I can not put my family in a service where that happens.  Does it make me better than you?  Hardly.  Does it mean I am right and you are wrong?  Hardly.  It simply means that for me I can't do it.  Churches today are becoming too much like the world, and I say that in a general way not your church specifically and I do not even know what church that is.

I took your statement to an extreme and knew full well what you meant.  I know of a church in Greenville, SC that recently had a local rock band put on a concert at their facilities under the guise of reaching out, where is the seperation in that, again a fairly extreme example.  Just where do we draw the line from being in the world and not of it?  If our music sounds the same are we unique?  That is something we all must account for personally as there is not a hard and fast verse we can go to and say this music is right and this music is wrong.  It is my personal conviction that if from the outside it sounds no different then I will not subject my family to it.

Tom, I respect your opinion, and wholeheartedly agree that music can be, and often is, divisive within a church.  However, we also disagree.  I am not, however, saying my way is the only way and everyone else is wrong.  I am saying it is wrong for me and for my family to attend services with little or no discernment in the music as that is my personal conviction that I have gotten out of Scripture as it applies to being called out of the world, being seperate and being unique.  Again, that does not make me right on this and everyone else wrong, and I am not saying I am better for my convictions that anyone with a differing view on the subject, far from it, I am as unworthy of God's grace and mercy as any man that ever lived and am thankful that He found mercy and grace upon me.  However, I have to ask, just as food for thought, just how grey do we allow the border to become between the world and the church?  We would probably also disagree on just what is the purpose of the local church and the services therein, but that is another thread for another time.

Finally, these are my personal convictions.  As such I hold no one to my standards or convictions.  I do not question, think less of, nor judge anyone that disagrees with me on the subject of music.  I only offer my convictions as food for thought.


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## HuntinTom (Nov 17, 2006)

Well - I've learned to not debate the already convinced - And, it seems pretty apparent that some are already convinced that any type of music not fitting one's own interpretation as "sacred" is crossing the line of true "church" music.  So, all I'll do is testify.  This year I've baptized close to 100 adults who have professed their faith in Jesus Christ publicly and proudly - Over the past 10 years in a church that's very contemporary in music style I've been privileged to baptize hundreds, and have seen Christ work mightily in transforming their lives forever-for-the-better.  I've seen countless families prioritize their lives and put Jesus first in their homes, schools, workplaces, places of recreation and in their world - I've heard testimony after testimony that hundreds had tried the "traditional" church style and just never related enough to stick with it -- However, after coming to a very contemporary styled worship they were touched by the Holy Spirit in such a way as to give themselves wholeheartedly to Him for His service to His commission to make disciples...  None of that discounts the countless thousands who have, are and will continue to be transformed by the more traditional style music offered in many great and vibrant churches.  The biggest problem I think Christianity faces today is the division of people thinking if it's not exactly the way they want it/understand it/see it - Then it must be wrong -- Let me just say on behalf of the couple of thousand folks over the past 20 + years (in both traditional and more contemporary styled churches) -- I've been privileged to baptize and watch the Holy Spirit work in their lives through both traditional & more contemporary style of music/worship -- If either of those is wrong -- I don't want to be right...


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## 60Grit (Nov 17, 2006)

reylamb said:


> It is about me. It is my personal conviction and belief that the music in the services should in no way shape or form resemble the bar down the street, it is a position I can justify Biblically. As such I will one day be held accountable for what I did with those convictions and where I took my family to attend services. It does not matter to me where you attend services or how those services are held, I am not accountable for that, only myself and how I acted upone my own personal convictions. If you want to go to a church that rocks out, so be it, it does not affect me in any way shape or form. However, that does not make me better in God's eyes, it does not mean I think I am more Spiritually enlightened in my eyes, it does not mean I think you are a heathen, it does not mean I cast any judgements against you for your beliefs, it simply means I have a personal conviction in the matter of music and I will be personally held accountable for what I did and how I acted in that conviction.
> 
> You are also correct, there is not one Scripture in the Bible that flat out says, no drums, no guitars, no bass, no violins (althought I have heard some violins that were hardly a joyful noise and I wished I could find such a Scripture, which was probably bad of me to think anyway) in church services. Therefore it is a matter of personal convictions. My conviction is that alot of the music in churches too closely resembles the world, and it is my conviction that I can not put my family in a service where that happens. Does it make me better than you? Hardly. Does it mean I am right and you are wrong? Hardly. It simply means that for me I can't do it. Churches today are becoming too much like the world, and I say that in a general way not your church specifically and I do not even know what church that is.
> 
> ...


 
Unless you've been hanging out in that bar, how would you know???


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## reylamb (Nov 17, 2006)

scooter1 said:


> Unless you've been hanging out in that bar, how would you know???



So you have to go in a bar to hear the music?  I don't have to go inside the house of the folks that live behind me every Friday night to hear their music, I hear it just fine in my house.  Ever heard music coming out of a car that you were not in?


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## Twenty five ought six (Nov 17, 2006)

If you want to really get a feel for the "old time " music, try to catch the GPB (Georgia Public Broadcast) show on the Sacred Harp.

That is the music that 90 percent of the protestants in Georiga sang in the 1700's and early 1800's.

If you are really intersted in a true Christian approach to music, listen carefully to the words.  Most of the Sacred Harp has words of people that are truly looking to a promised land that will take them from the cares of this world, and a total belief that they have salvation waiting for them.

If you look at most of the "old time" hymns, they were written in the late 19th century.


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 17, 2006)

reylamb said:


> Let me just ask this.  If an unsaved man sat outside a bar in Buckhead and sat outside a church with the guitars and drums beating away....would that man know a difference between the music from the bar and from the church?  If the answer is no, does that follow our guidlines of being a unique people and being in the world but not of the world?  It does not matter to me as it is not my church, but my family would not worship in a church where there is little distinction in the music of the church and the music of the world.
> 
> As for the statement about reaching people by any means necessary......I could not disagree more.  How about liquor, beer, poker night, strippers, I mean any means necessary right?  Granted I took that to the extreme, but I can list at least 1 dozen churches around the country that offer a bottle of booze to any homeless man that enters their doors for the services.........where does it stop, at what point are we no longer in the world but not of it?



AMEN!!!!

My grandpa used to say.... "If it looks like the world, acts like the world, sounds like the world, smells like the world, it is probably OF the world."


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## CAL (Nov 17, 2006)

I'm just a "Give me that ole time religion"kind of a person myself but I went to my son's church in Columbus,Ga.a while back.He goes on Saturday night and then drives one of the church buses on Sunday many times.His church is Cascade Hills.As I looked around the auditorium that night as it began to fill with people.The crowd was mostly young folks(teenagers,early twenties),they came in tennis shoes,blue jeans and sport shirts.Some even came in Bermuda shorts.I was amazed at the attendance.Brother Bill Purvis,the pastor, was dressed very casual with no tie.The Holy Spirit was there also.The music was contemporary and up lifting.The message quite rewarding as it applied to all our lives.One could see the Holy Spirit move through the congregation as young people came to rededicate their lives and some as well join the church.Funny,I never noticed what any of them were wearing then.If i had to make a call,I would say my God was smiling on that church that night!


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 17, 2006)

Maybe he was but the day i got saved my appearance changed, what I wore changed, how I spoke changed and my hair length changed. Not from the influence of my new peers within the church but from the new influence witnessing to me in my heart.

I dont buy into thsi casual Christianity. I am nto saying that you ave to wear a suit and tie to church. But we are to dress modestly and neatly. Short shorts and short dresses have no place in God's house.

I am leery of churches that lower the dress code to uo the atendence charts. Not to say we should turn sinner people away who dont know better. But I have a real doubt about someones salvation and testimony when I see them wearing a short skirt that they have to keep tugging at to keep from showing their underwear during church.

Just my opinion.


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## THREEJAYS (Nov 17, 2006)

I WAS RAISED W/TRADITIONAL MUSIC IN CHURCH AND STILL LIKE IT TODAY.THERE HOWEVER ARE SOME NEWER SONGS THAT ARE REVERANT.I DON'T WANT TO GET CAUGHT UP IN TRADITION IF THERES NO BIBLICAL REASON.BUT I DISAGREE W/ TOTAL COME AS YOU ARE.GOD IS AWESOME AND DESERVES OUR BEST.I DON'T THINK I SHOULD TREAT THINGS DEDICATED TO HIM LIGHTLY.IT ALSO AS ALREADY MENTIONED NEEDS TO BE HANDLED IN A WAY THAT DOES NOT CAUSE DIVISION.JESUS PRAYED THAT WE WOULD BE ONE AS HE AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.DON'T YOU HAVE TO FEEL FOR WHAT POOR MOSE'S WENT THROUGH.


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## BKA (Nov 17, 2006)

Fighting over music????   What's next, fighting about the toliet paper in the restrooms at church?  Will it glorify the Lord?

There is know wonder why people think we are crazy!  We spend more time arguing about silly things instead of brining glory to the Lord.


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 17, 2006)

The overlooking the "silly thiings"  has allowed our churches to stray left of center and as the old saying goes..."Give the devil an inch and he will become your ruler."


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## CAL (Nov 18, 2006)

I hear you Tn Extreme and understand where you are coming from but your reasoning might just be like the story about the old cowboy who went to church.His cloths as you say were less than appropriate and his boots were scuffed as well but he was clean as a pin.After church the pastor approached the visitor and told him he might need to pray and ask God what he needed to wear to that church.Several of the members had commented about the old cowboy.Well the old cowboy thanked the pastor and the very next Sunday he was back again with his same outfit on,he was clean as a pin and so were his cloths but they were the same he had worn the Sunday before(might have been the best he had).After the service the pastor approached the old cowboy again and said I thought we had discussed your attire last Sunday and you were to ask the Lord what you should wear to this church?Well the old cowboy told the preacher he had talked to the Lord and the Lord said he didn't know what he needed to wear to that church,He had never been there.
I really don't think what a person wears to church matters,the fact that that person is there is what really matters.Saturday night at Cascade Hills is a casual night as well.Neither do I think the church is working on their attendance charts from the crowd that is already there.Three services a weekend tells me attendance is a problem,finding somewhere to put people.Bro Bill Purvis is also televised via satellite should anyone care to listen.


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## 60Grit (Nov 18, 2006)

BKA said:


> Fighting over music???? What's next, fighting about the toliet paper in the restrooms at church? Will it glorify the Lord?
> 
> There is know wonder why people think we are crazy! We spend more time arguing about silly things instead of brining glory to the Lord.


 
Amen Bro'.

I've heard a lot of things to worry about in church but the music isn't one of them. 

In regards to giving the devil an inch!!!, I think in his own house the Lord is capable of using the Devil's folly to his advantage, if that is what you call it.

Personally, I don't care to go back to the days of fire and brimstone, no dancing, no card playing, women not wearing makeup and not being allowed to speak in church. 

Just how primitive do we want to stay, Christianity has always adapted to the times it was in. How do you think we got so many Christian holidays that mimic the pagan celebrations???


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## Hunting Teacher (Nov 18, 2006)

WTM45 said:


> The simple fact that the music choice has caused a division in the body of Christ is enough for me to believe Satan himself is behind the push to "secularize" the music ministry.  It moves the focus from praising God to the fleshly enjoyment of a worldly sound.  When something causes such a division, it should be addressed and dealt with.  I see the answer as going with what has worked and has been blessed by God in the past, classical standard hymns of praise.
> A man/woman singing "How Great Thou Art" with tears rolling down their cheeks should warm the soul of both the believer and the lost equally!



WTM 45,
I couldn't agree more about division. What you are missing is it's the "Old Style" folks who are causing the division and spreading gossip. The worship leader has repeatedly asked any member who has an issue with the music to come to him as we are instructing to do in Matthew 13.

I personally love How Great Thou Art. But what about if a person is moved to tears by a new song? Then those tears aren't real? They are just caught up in the emotion of the "secular sound?" I think we are treading on dangerous territory when we start telling our Lord what songs He has to use to reach his children.
My friends wife did not grow up in church. She never heard the hymns like so many of us here, so there is no history for her there. She has a very hard time relating to "traditional" music at church. Is she less spiritual than others that like hymns? Is our God so small that he can't use ANY style of music to reach the lost?
I guess it comes down to what we think the purpose of church is. Some have already stated here church is  supposed to be about us and we should only go to a church where we are made happy by the music.
I think church is about God and an opportunity to worship Him. 
In my very small, usually incorrect opinion, I think we need to design church services to reach those in need of God's salvation and raise up the next generation in a way that they will be ready to be mature Christians ready to face the world they will be dealing with.
Us old folks ought  to be mature enough in our walk with Christ to not feel like we need to be made happy by the service. We need to be more than willing to give up our own wants in order to be sure the Lord's work is being done.
I'll say no more about this issue.
Teacher


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## reylamb (Nov 19, 2006)

Just a few comments.

First, on dress in church.  There is appropriate dress, and there is inappropriate dress.  If someone comes in with the only clothes they own, good for them.  If someone comes in straight from work, good for them.  There is a line though, and there is inappropriate dress, ultra-short mini skirts's, short-shorts, tube tops, bikini's, in other words basically clothing that is not modest.

Second, about Christianity adapting to the times.  Man might adapt, Christians might adapt, and individual churches might adapt (not singling out any churches here but I could list a ton of examples), but has God?  God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  If the Bible says women are to remain silent in the church, should that instruction remain?  God is the same God today as He was when He guided Paul to make that statement.  Many churches throughout this country are adapting to modern times, but is that the guidance we are given for the church?  There are  many individual churches and some denominations that have really adapted to modern times, in ways that they should never have.  God gave specific guidlines for the church in order to maintain the purity of his bride, should those guidlines be followed today, or should we change them to adapt to modern times?

Third, if I have a conviction about music that is a personal conviction how do I act upon that conviction?  As Paul said when discussing the topic of meat, boiled down alot here but the actual Scriptures can be given if needed, if someone feels it is wrong and they partake anyway it is a sin to them.  If I have a personal conviction against music that is outwardly worldly it is a sin to me to sit in services with that music.

Fourth, there is no reason to cause division or gossip, both are wrong.  The folks that have issues with the music should follow the teachings of Matthew 13 or move on.  I can name a church just outside of Darlington, SC that had a massive division about 20 years ago over the color chosen for the bricks on the new sanctuary they were building.  Bricks of all things.  The church divided and the entire testimony of the church was lost in the community over it, and those bricks stood outside on the lawn for 15 years as a reflection of what had happened, not intentionally but because the church no longer had the members nor the funds to complete the building.  It has taken 20 years for the church to restore what was lost.

Fifth, are church services designed to reach the lost?  Is that the purpose of the service?  I believe, through the teachings of Paul, that the services are for the edification of the saints, and to prepare us to go forth.  Granted that would be a topic all it's own.

Finally, as I said, I don't care how anyone else worships or how their church worships, it does not affect me.  I am going to be one day held accountable for my actions, how I reared my family, my convictions, and how I acted upon those convictions.  My intent in this thread was not to say I am right and anyone that does not have or share my convictions is wrong, my intent was to get everyone to think.


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## CAL (Nov 19, 2006)

In my very small, usually incorrect opinion, I think we need to design church services to reach those in need of God's salvation and raise up the next generation in a way that they will be ready to be mature Christians ready to face the world they will be dealing with.


That is more than a mouth full Teacher and I couldn't agree with you more.

May I also say that so much of life is designed around a persons attitude too.If we go anywhere with the attitude we don't like something we never will like any part of it no matter what.I learned many years ago that if I just changed my attitude about something I didn't like ,it just seemed to help me bear the pain much better.


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## Headshot (Nov 19, 2006)

HuntinTom said:


> Well - I've learned to not debate the already convinced - And, it seems pretty apparent that some are already convinced that any type of music not fitting one's own interpretation as "sacred" is crossing the line of true "church" music.  So, all I'll do is testify.  This year I've baptized close to 100 adults who have professed their faith in Jesus Christ publicly and proudly - Over the past 10 years in a church that's very contemporary in music style I've been privileged to baptize hundreds, and have seen Christ work mightily in transforming their lives forever-for-the-better.  I've seen countless families prioritize their lives and put Jesus first in their homes, schools, workplaces, places of recreation and in their world - I've heard testimony after testimony that hundreds had tried the "traditional" church style and just never related enough to stick with it -- However, after coming to a very contemporary styled worship they were touched by the Holy Spirit in such a way as to give themselves wholeheartedly to Him for His service to His commission to make disciples...  None of that discounts the countless thousands who have, are and will continue to be transformed by the more traditional style music offered in many great and vibrant churches.  The biggest problem I think Christianity faces today is the division of people thinking if it's not exactly the way they want it/understand it/see it - Then it must be wrong -- Let me just say on behalf of the couple of thousand folks over the past 20 + years (in both traditional and more contemporary styled churches) -- I've been privileged to baptize and watch the Holy Spirit work in their lives through both traditional & more contemporary style of music/worship -- If either of those is wrong -- I don't want to be right...[/QUOTE]
> 
> Well said, Pastor.  Well said.


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 19, 2006)

scooter1 said:


> How do you think we got so many Christian holidays that mimic the pagan celebrations???



You cant make anything Christian from a pagan belief.


GREAT POST REYLAMB!


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## HuntDawg (Nov 19, 2006)

Do I understand that a previous thread stated that women should remain silent in church?  That since God is the same today as when he guide Paul to make the statement, that it is to remain the same for women?  So I would assume that women should not be in the choir and have their entire bodies covered in worship service.  

I am not trying to be sarcastic in anyway, or offend anyone, but were women not considered *property* during the times of these writings?  If God is the same today as he was back then, should we not still consider women property.  Ofcourse not.  I believe the Bible was written for the time it was written.  The messages are to be carried into the future, but to take one passage from Paul and carry it into modern times with regards to women seems harsh.

If a woman was your property in Biblical times, then she should still be considered property today, therfore she should remain silent in church as well.  Am I missing something here?


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 19, 2006)

HuntDawg said:


> Do I understand that a previous thread stated that women should remain silent in church?  That since God is the same today as when he guide Paul to make the statement, that it is to remain the same for women? ?


Thats what the Bible says....very plainly by the way.



HuntDawg said:


> So I would assume that women should not be in the choir and have their entire bodies covered in worship service.



Now your adding to what Gods word says.....The Bible says if women have questions about Gods word they are to ask their husbands. They are told to only teach children and other women.....Nowhere in the Bible does it say a woman has to have their entire body covered but it does tell them to keep their hair long and head covered with it and to dress modestly and decent.



HuntDawg said:


> , but were women not considered *property* during the times of these writings?



No they were not....Not in the Christian faith. Christian Husbands were/are taight to love their wves as Christ loved the church.



HuntDawg said:


> I believe the Bible was written for the time it was written.  The messages are to be carried into the future, but to take one passage from Paul and carry it into modern times with regards to women seems harsh.




That isnt what the Bible says...The Bible says God's word will remain the same.  It MEANT then what it MEANS today.

What other verses should we discard and overlook today with the changing times and perceptions??  Why not discard the anti sodomite verses??  Lets do away with "Thou  shalt not kill" because abortion is legal now., etc, etc, etc.


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## 60Grit (Nov 19, 2006)

HuntDawg said:


> Do I understand that a previous thread stated that women should remain silent in church? That since God is the same today as when he guide Paul to make the statement, that it is to remain the same for women? So I would assume that women should not be in the choir and have their entire bodies covered in worship service.
> 
> I am not trying to be sarcastic in anyway, or offend anyone, but were women not considered *property* during the times of these writings? If God is the same today as he was back then, should we not still consider women property. Ofcourse not. I believe the Bible was written for the time it was written. The messages are to be carried into the future, but to take one passage from Paul and carry it into modern times with regards to women seems harsh.
> 
> If a woman was your property in Biblical times, then she should still be considered property today, therfore she should remain silent in church as well. Am I missing something here?


 
I guess biblical anthropological studies would help you in this case HuntDawg. I am with you on this one. From what I understand, most laws, rules etc. were written to deal with the times, and when Paul was doing his synical best to carry out the letter of the word as it was given to him was to address the debauchery of the people he was dealing with.

For those that did attend church, in that period, few if any women spoke much less read the languages in which the scriptures and teachings were given by scribes. Scribes were always men. It was men that were educated to read and write, if anyone in the family was to attain that privilage, and it was a womans place to be the care taker of the household.

I would say that women not being able to read the scriptures now a day is not really an issue.

But we are involved in a conflict with a country that insist on sticking to hardline, biblically based, customs, without any tolerance for progressing to modern rational.

Is that how we should apply the bible, Tn-Extreme???


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## leroy (Nov 19, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> .Nowhere in the Bible does it say a woman has to have their entire body covered but it does tell them to keep their hair long and head covered with it and to dress modestly and decent.
> .



So that means a woman with a short hair cut is wrong in Gods eyes? How short is to short? Gets complicated!


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 19, 2006)

leroy said:


> So that means a woman with a short hair cut is wrong in Gods eyes? How short is to short? Gets complicated!



Complictaed?? Not really.

The Bible says...

I Cor.
11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 
11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. 

Now that is what the Bible says...Who has the authority to  argue with God?


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 19, 2006)

scooter1 said:


> I guess biblical anthropological studies would help you in this case HuntDawg. I am with you on this one. From what I understand, most laws, rules etc. were written to deal with the times, and when Paul was doing his synical best to carry out the letter of the word as it was given to him was to address the debauchery of the people he was dealing with.
> 
> For those that did attend church, in that period, few if any women spoke much less read the languages in which the scriptures and teachings were given by scribes. Scribes were always men. It was men that were educated to read and write, if anyone in the family was to attain that privilage, and it was a womans place to be the care taker of the household.
> 
> ...



Back in those days the gospel was spread manily by word of mouth. Printed Biblical verses were few and far between.  The Bible is ful of women sprading the Gospel...but within the formal church body at formal meetings the Bible is clear on how they were to act and what role they were to take. 

You use the term Modern rationale....That i troubling. By the definition of that word I could do away woth alot of Biblical teachings due to the modern "rationale" of todays world.

Study many of the liberal church movements. Many were started by women, who overstepped their boundaries and defied Gods word and claimed to be preachers and pastors.

The Bible cearly says a Pastor of a church is to be the "HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE", not the other way around.


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## 60Grit (Nov 20, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> Back in those days the gospel was spread manily by word of mouth. Printed Biblical verses were few and far between.  The Bible is ful of women sprading the Gospel...but within the formal church body at formal meetings the Bible is clear on how they were to act and what role they were to take.
> 
> You use the term Modern rationale....That i troubling. By the definition of that word I could do away woth alot of Biblical teachings due to the modern "rationale" of todays world.
> 
> ...


 
I guess on this one I have to agree to disagree. As conservative as I am in my voting, had the church not adapted constantly over the past 2000 years, including women overstepping their boundaries, then I fear we would all be some other religion now, or at least under the thumb of a political tyrant. 

*Romans 16*

 1I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

The footnote by Phebe or Phoebe as the NIV may spell it; clearly denotes that the meaning of servant in this case meant "Deaconess".

I can't presume to know what type church you attend, I do know that the Deacons in a Baptist Church hold the welfare of that church in their hands, and I am more familiar with the Methodist church where the Deacon is held in much higher regard.

So I guess it all comes down to a matter of interpretation. One thing I am certain on is if God's church, in this Country, gets bogged down in the symantics of how to worship instead of focusing on who to worship then we will find ourselves in a true, sure enough mess with this world of evil that is set to destroy Christianity at the hands of radicals.

Look at the Church of England and how they have dictated how to worship for centuries, and where it has led them spiritually within that country. We left that country to express our religious and political freedoms. Are we now of the opinion that this was a mistake???


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## Double Barrel BB (Nov 20, 2006)

Adapting.....

That is what has gotten the world in so many churches today.

We are to be a seperate people. We are not to conform to the world.

Adaption has came about by the works of the devil.

If the message and the music doesn't glorify God, then it has no purpose being in the Church.

People say we should adapt the church to attract more people in the hopes of leading them to salvation. You adapt the way a church attracts its people and it will have to adapt even more the next time to attract more.... Soon there will not be a church.....

DB BB


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## toddboucher (Nov 20, 2006)

I know lakewood Bap. in Gainesville has 3 services.
1) Traditional service
2) Blended
3) Contemporary (more like Rock)

Im not a member but do love this church, they have a lot to offer. My guess with 3 different services I bet some people are still not happy. besides music some people like short services and others like me like it a little longer. Wife I I were talking about this I would like a more traditional and the wife would like a more contemporary so I guess we would take the mix. The real problem I see is not enough preachers are truly preaching the word, but a watered down TV verison of bless me religion.


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## leroy (Nov 20, 2006)

what about the modern christian bands like mercy me, casting crowns, etc are they wrong? You will never please everyone not even in a Church or should I say especially in a Church seems you can always find some drama . We started a contemperary service in the PM Sun service drums,guitar,keyboard and some are unhappy with it but the majority like it and I enjoy it. As you say some have gotten downright ugly with some of the participants but they let it roll off and continue.


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## duckbill (Nov 20, 2006)

It comes down to this...Is it glorifying God?

I've visited many churches and have made some observations.  
I visited a church that was busting at the seems.  They played some really upbeat music with lots of whooping and carrying on.  This same church had tons of programs for lots of interests.  I never felt like the Holy Spirit was moving in this church.  My impression was that everyone was there to make themselves feel good about being there.  This church had conformed to what the people wanted and that is all it was accomplishing.  I never saw anybody get saved or even talk about salvation.

I also visited traditional churches that were basically "dead".  Folks seemed to be just in a routine.  

Niether of these examples was glorifying God or inspiring it's members to serve Him.  When God is the focus, exciting things happen in a church regardless of the music style.

I have to say that conforming to the world's desires is dangerous.  I also think that accepting certain attitudes is dangerous.

Huntin'Tom - I respect you as a preacher but something you said bothered me.  You said that some people said they turned their lives over to God after changing to the contemporary service, but were not compelled to do so in the traditional style.  That is saying that it is a conditional thing.  Are you saying that the Holy Spirit was waiting for them to change styles before he inspired them to serve?  .  That sounds like man made justification of fulfilling their desires.


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## HuntinTom (Nov 20, 2006)

duckbill said:


> Huntin'Tom - I respect you as a preacher but something you said bothered me.  You said that some people said they turned their lives over to God after changing to the contemporary service, but were not compelled to do so in the traditional style.  That is saying that it is a conditional thing.  Are you saying that the Holy Spirit was waiting for them to change styles before he inspired them to serve?  .  That sounds like man made justification of fulfilling their desires.



What I meant by that was they had tried the type traditional you mentioned -- i.e., dead/boring and rote with little intunndness to the presence and power of the Holy Spirit -- I'm sure that there are also many who have tried and not gotten it in some of the contemporary settings you described as well -- 

As for the style worship/music - One is not better than the other, and I agree that glorifying God is he true mark of legitimacy -- (But, even that can - and on this forum probably will - be subjective  ) -- 

The people I'm speaking of in that paragraph you mentioned have the obvious "fruit" and witness of persons in the process of being radically transformed forever-for-the-better through a personal relationship with Christ the Lord...

My biggest problem with this (and the thousands of debates pretty much identical throughout the world of the church) is the dogmatic reactions that if it's not EXACTLY the way one wants/sees/understands it, then it is TOTALLY wrong --


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## PWalls (Nov 20, 2006)

reylamb said:


> Fifth, are church services designed to reach the lost?  Is that the purpose of the service?  I believe, through the teachings of Paul, that the services are for the edification of the saints, and to prepare us to go forth.  Granted that would be a topic all it's own.




Rey, I agreed with your entire post. I especially liked this one. I go to church to hear my Pastor preach from the Word. I go to get further education in the Word. I do not go to a Church that feels it should change the service to "attract" the lost. There is danger inherent in that. The great commission tells us to "GO" not to sit on Sunday and change worship services to make them come to us. If I invite someone that is lost to my church, they hear Gospel preaching and my fellow saints worshipping the Lord. They hear something different in there than they do outside of those 4 walls.


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## leroy (Nov 20, 2006)

HuntinTom said:


> My biggest problem with this (and the thousands of debates pretty much identical throughout the world of the church) is the dogmatic reactions that if it's not EXACTLY the way one wants/sees/understands it, then it is TOTALLY wrong --



Agree with you on that one Tom 100%.


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## addictedtodeer (Nov 20, 2006)

Allow me to jump in if you don't mind.  The hymns are fantastic, but what we need are new hymn writers.  Each generation should be making a "new song" for the Lord.  Please here me on this, we don't need to copy the world.  We need to lead them in style.  God created everything to enjoy and to reflect his glory (we in our sinfulness mess it up). 
We need to be raising up a new generation of hymn writers and music leaders, creating new songs, not based on what has been or is, new.  God gave us creativity, why should we stifle it?
God used great men of faith to create lasting songs, we can not say that a sovereign God stopped.  We as men need to be encouraging our sons that the greatest thing is praising God and leading their generation in God glorifying music (doctrinally correct of course) even if we prefer the old.
Finally the words are the most important, tunes come and go, words, words say it all.  We must guard what we sing and make sure what we sing is correct according to scripture (Nothing worse than singing a hymn and half way through realizing it is just plain wrong).


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## Gajbird (Nov 20, 2006)

*whew!!!*

My church had a Gospel sing last Saturday night. We had three groups one has been singing hymns for 30 years and have incorporated a few more mellow newer P&R songs. One was a pentecostal Evangelist and his family who sang Praise and Worship new music, and the last was a Quartet that sings the older hymns and some of their own writings.

We had folks from 2yrs old to over 80yrs old and everyone was worshiping and fellowshiping in the lord.

Many different denominations and personalities there and The Pentecostal was the one who spoke a little about how denominationalism can very easily be dipleasing to the Lord.

My favorite song of all time is "The Old Rugged Cross" and I love lots of Hymnals but I like the newer P&R music better and believe it reaches more people. I see that a lot of the hymnals are about me and what God Has done for me. Where as the newer P&R songs are about praising and Worshiping God with out the reference to me.

I love both types and I for one take the stance that the newer music is better for me b/c it ushers the spirit in to me and my church. I am not young or a babe in Christ but an elected deacon in my church. We as a deacon board very seldom bring up the attendance #'s. What is more important than that is the fact that a big percentage of the folks who attend church and argue these points do not Tithe as the Bible commands. Churches don't need to pad #'s if the members tithe. Usually. we as a deacon board would rather have (enter # here) that pay their tithes and are on fire for the Lord than (enter 2x the last entered # here).

That said I do want to "ATTRACT" who so ever will come in hopes that every lost soul would be saved. BUT I and My church WILL NOT compromise "The Word " that was, is and always will be inerrant, infallible, and TRUE for anyone or anything.


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## HuntDawg (Nov 20, 2006)

TN Extreme, do you not believe that any of the Bible was written for the people of the time?  I understand, the basic concept of the messages that should carry on.  Thalt shall not kill, sodemy, etc.  These are basic rules that most all religions follow.

You bring up the hair issue.  Man, every photo I see in just about every church has Jesus and all other men with long hair.  Can you explain this?  

Can you not see that at the time the Bible was written, women were not considered equal in anyway, therfore, Paul is going to write about the traditions of the day.  Is it OK for a woman to be able to read today?  Most could not and were not allowed to read back then.  Don't you think this could be a reason that Paul wrote what he did?  If he wrote any different, he would have be jailed or killed.  Poeple would have thought he was filled with Satan.  Can you at least agree with that statement?

I agree, God is the same today as always.  Why did Paul not write about cars and airplanes?  God knew these things were to come.  God inspired Paul to write what he wrote.  Again, Paul would have been considered crazy.

What if the Bible was written today, rather than so long ago?  Do you honestly believe that Women would not be allowed to speak in church?

I truely feel that when the end comes, we are going to be asked by God, "What were you people thinking".


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Nov 20, 2006)

Woodswalker said:


> Likely, when we get there, we'll be ask two questions:
> 
> 1. did you love enough (while in the Earthen incarnation)?
> 2. did you learn enough?
> ...


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## Hawkeye (Nov 20, 2006)

This is a good article on what is happening in Churches today.

http://users.stargate.net/~ejt/strange10.htm


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## matthewsman (Nov 20, 2006)

*It is obvious from this thread*

That music would be a problem with worship even among fellow "Woodyite"Believers.It's too bad that something that is a matter of personal taste would be misconstrued as worldly by some.....Just as some people enjoy old country,some new country,some rock,some soul, or alternative,people enjoy different styles of church music.....

The Bible says "he that winneth souls is wise"We should be...I've seen debates on here from topics such as superbowl parties to how long dresses should be.There is an obvious difference in standards and it is not dissimilar to the confusion caused by the language barrier expierienced at the tower of Babel............

We have spiritial "ninjas" here that swing the Biblical sword forcefully,slaying who they may,and let God sort them out. As the new believer,or potential convert lays there bleeding from the gashes,these people feel they have done God a favor,by "showing"someone the truth.In reality they have retarded or stifled someone's spiritual growth.Some people never recover from those wounds.

We also have people that wield the Word as a surgeons scapel,removing what shouldn't be there,and being careful not to "kill' the "patient"to fix a non-lifethreatening problem..........

There are both on either side of this issue.......I do know which of the two groups I would listen to,and take advice from,if I was prone to do so


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## leroy (Nov 20, 2006)

Good post matthews!!


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## toddboucher (Nov 21, 2006)

The wife and I were talking about this post last night. I told her in Christian circles we use words that should never be used, like a dead Church. If the word is being preached under even NO-Music it's alive, the only way I can see a Church being dead is with no word, no one getting saved, convictive and encouraged. Amos talked about a Famine of the Word of God. I like my worship more traditional I Love bluegrass Gospel but it drives the wife crazy she love very contemporary so we find a mix I guess she could call mine dead. Remember God move in all types of services, years ago I went with some freinds and family to a cathloic church even thou I may believe they are off on a lot of doctrine their pastor gave a good word(short but good) I could see God moving in the lives of the people.
In my truck my worship music is the Issacs


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## duckbill (Nov 21, 2006)

toddboucher said:


> the only way I can see a Church being dead is with no word, no one getting saved, convictive and encouraged.



If you are referring to my comments about the church being "dead", maybe "dying" would have been better.  The particular church was literally drying up in every aspect.  It had nothing to do with the style of music.  It had everything to do with the spirit of it's members and staff.  The focus on God seemed to be lacking.  That is the reason I used the word "dead".

By the way, I'm with you on the gospel bluegrass.  That's just good stuff  .


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 21, 2006)

toddboucher said:


> In my truck my worship music is the Issacs




My parents were very good friends with the Isaacs. My dad preached at several meetings they sang at. Once we found out Joe was living with another woman out of wdlock while still married to Lillie and we saw how the girl that went country (Sonja) and ben acted in public we distanced ourselves from them.

The younger daughter and her husband seem to be legit and really year to spread the Gospel.  LOillie carries a tememdous testimony. She was a jew and come to know Christ become a Christian. Her Jewish family cut her off from them for years and many still dont speak to her to this day.


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## 60Grit (Nov 25, 2006)

toddboucher said:


> The wife and I were talking about this post last night. I told her in Christian circles we use words that should never be used, like a dead Church. If the word is being preached under even NO-Music it's alive, the only way I can see a Church being dead is with no word, no one getting saved, convictive and encouraged. Amos talked about a Famine of the Word of God. I like my worship more traditional I Love bluegrass Gospel but it drives the wife crazy she love very contemporary so we find a mix I guess she could call mine dead. Remember God move in all types of services, years ago I went with some freinds and family to a cathloic church even thou I may believe they are off on a lot of doctrine their pastor gave a good word(short but good) I could see God moving in the lives of the people.
> In my truck my worship music is the Issacs


 
I wonder, if the word is falling upon deaf ears?? is not death of that particular church almost imminent.

When I was a youngster, 19 or so, I was in a production of Godspell, that our church put together. We took it several places in Ga. and up through Tn., Ky, Ind, and Ohio. Most of our stops were wayward or troubled kids camps. One however was a church in Ohio, a very old, very large church, that the pastor had invited us to in hopes of helping regenerate the youth program.

His church was dying a slow painful death because he had a church full of very, very old trustee type, stuck in the mud of the old ways, people. They were driving all of the young folks away.

That was nearly 30 years ago, and I can still remember those old folks reaction to our production for them while it was going on.

"Blasphemy, oh I can't believe those kids!!! Who do they think they are!!!"

On the other hand, we did performances over three consecutive nights at a camp for abandoned and abused children. One of the kids was a Downs Syndrome boy. Again, I will never forget his words as we moved through the audience in one of the closing scenes, as he spoke teary eyed to the counselor holding him.

" Please don't let them kill Jesus again!!!".

I was instantly reminded of the 6th Beatitude, and boy did it come to life in a new way for me. Perspective was made as spiritually clear as could possibly be.

Here we had adults that thought they new it all and were heck bent on forcing their way of worship, even at the cost of destroying the church they worshiped in, yet in a very dichotomous way, here was the most innocent of children in a sea of kids that understood completely.

Everytime we argue, as Christians, amongst ourselves I hear the PING of the hammer striking the nails being driven into HIS hands and feet.

Just how much bigger of a burden to we wish for HIM to carry???


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## toddboucher (Nov 29, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> My parents were very good friends with the Isaacs. My dad preached at several meetings they sang at. Once we found out Joe was living with another woman out of wdlock while still married to Lillie and we saw how the girl that went country (Sonja) and ben acted in public we distanced ourselves from them.
> 
> The younger daughter and her husband seem to be legit and really year to spread the Gospel.  LOillie carries a tememdous testimony. She was a jew and come to know Christ become a Christian. Her Jewish family cut her off from them for years and many still dont speak to her to this day.



Man that is so sad, I knew Joe was no-longer with the band, I thought he was sick or to old. I thought that country thing would end up bringing glory to God, but I guess it brought Glory to herself. Their music has lifted my Spirit but I will say reading this hurt alittle. But God is still on the throne and his mercy in new every morning. If anyone knows something on the Bishops don't tell me.


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## elfiii (Nov 30, 2006)

matthewsman said:


> That music would be a problem with worship even among fellow "Woodyite"Believers.It's too bad that something that is a matter of personal taste would be misconstrued as worldly by some.....Just as some people enjoy old country,some new country,some rock,some soul, or alternative,people enjoy different styles of church music.....
> 
> The Bible says "he that winneth souls is wise"We should be...I've seen debates on here from topics such as superbowl parties to how long dresses should be.There is an obvious difference in standards and it is not dissimilar to the confusion caused by the language barrier expierienced at the tower of Babel............
> 
> ...



Its' why I usually stay out of here. Too many prophets for me.

I stick with my original post - "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord".


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## Huntinfool (Dec 4, 2006)

reylamb said:


> It is my personal conviction and belief that the music in the services should in no way shape or form resemble the bar down the street, it is a position I can justify Biblically.



Anybody else interested in seeing this Biblical justification? 

I'd be interested in some proof that church music should not resemble the bar down the street in terms of the TYPE of music and the instruments used.  Of course you don't want somebody playing "Why don't we get drunk and screw" in a Church   .....But, come on....I think we all assume that Church music should be intended to praise and glorify the Lord, right?

Everybody is entitled to attend whatever type service they feel appropriate.  I do, however, think that ALL types of music can be used to glorify the Lord.  Certainly lyrics make the difference.  Music is just notes on a page...nothing more, nothing less.  It's the musician who makes it sinful or glorifying.  

If the "justification" entails which instruments were or were not allowed in the temple in the OT...well I can only assume that anyone who uses that argument must, then, still make blood sacrifices to God on an alter, etc.  

The point I'm making is that any arguments for which type of music is acceptable to God that include OT tradition really don't hold much water.  If there is a NT justification, I would really, honestly love to hear it.  It is certainly possible that I'm missing something.  But I'm not inclined to think that I've missed something that big.  There are lots of aspects of OT "law" that we are no longer obligated to.  The temple was reserved for only a few in the OT.  The modern NT church is open for everyone.

As far as I'm concerned Elfii's got it right....Make a joyful noise!  (and use whatever instruments you want).


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## addictedtodeer (Dec 7, 2006)

Well the if you believe in the regulatory principle and hold to it strictly then you would agree with reylamb.
_The Regulatory Principle was given its classical and definitive statement in the reformed Confessions formulated in the 17th century. It is stated in identical language in Chapter 21 paragraph 1 in both the Westminster confession and Chapter 22 paragraph 1 in the 1689 London Baptist confession._
_Simply the Regulative Principle States this: True worship is only commanded by God; false worship is anything not commanded._
quotes taken from http://www.newble.co.uk/hall/mcmahon.html

The extreme of the Regulatory principle is that the only songs to be sung are the Psalms, and the only instruments allowed would be those mentioned in the Bible.  Since we don't play those instruments anymore, those for the strict interpretation of the rule say no instruments are allowed.

For myself I really think the key for church music is the words.  Do they agree with Biblical doctrine?  Then sing them.  Can they be heard and easily followed?  Then sing them.  *Never* should the instruments or the singers take away from our focus: worshiping God.  It doesn't matter what worship does for me, worship is never about me it is about giving glory and honor to God.
If I go and worship based upon my preferences or what I should get out of it, then I have made *me* the focus of the worship.  That is sin becaue I have place my desires before God. Worship is to be focused on God and him alone. Worships is to bring the congregations' focus onto God.


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## FX Jenkins (Dec 8, 2006)

Good posts Mathewsman and Addictedtodeer...

just some thoughts that come to my mind and heart

Our unity is in Christ...

Tradition is relative to a period of time, and God warns us not to get to caught up in formalities...

David danced unto the Lord and was rebuked (unjustly) by Michal

and in 2 Samuel 6:21 

21 David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the LORD's people Israel—I will celebrate before the LORD. 22 I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor."

Can any of us really qualify anothers style or effectivness of praise and worship?  If so, we might have something in our eye...For only God can judge whats in our heart...

and as Elfiii referenced

Psalm 98

4 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.

 5 Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm.

 6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.

 7 Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

 8 Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together

I believe verse 7 provides that our worship should transcend culture and time...


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## reylamb (Dec 8, 2006)

Huntinfool said:


> Anybody else interested in seeing this Biblical justification?
> 
> I'd be interested in some proof that church music should not resemble the bar down the street in terms of the TYPE of music and the instruments used.  Of course you don't want somebody playing "Why don't we get drunk and screw" in a Church   .....But, come on....I think we all assume that Church music should be intended to praise and glorify the Lord, right?
> 
> ...



Since you seem to overlook any of the NT justifications I have previously listed throughout this thread, I seriously doubt any further discussion is warranted.  I have provided NT justification for the purity of the Church, seperation from the world, and being a unique people, all commands in the NT.   Taking the favored tunes from the "hip" rock bands, country bands or any other bands and changing the words hardly would be considered seperate from the world, in the world but not of the world, or unique.

As for the Regulatory Principle.........never heard of it until it was just now posted.

I was going to ask a rhetorical question that I have previously asked within this thread.  However, I am done with this thread.


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## Cward (Dec 8, 2006)

Ahhhh! You gotta love "Organized" religion!
I guess the people that left or sent hate mail will now start yet ANOTHER church!


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## FX Jenkins (Dec 8, 2006)

Cward said:


> Ahhhh! You gotta love "Organized" religion!
> I guess the people that left or sent hate mail will now start yet ANOTHER church!



yep

Sadley enough, and easily enough, we loose sight of who is truely worthy of our affection....


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## Cward (Dec 8, 2006)

FX Jenkins said:


> yep
> 
> Sadley enough, and easily enough, we loose sight of who is truely worthy of our affection....



We can only imagine how much junk like this 
saddens Him.


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## SBG (Dec 8, 2006)

reylamb said:


> I was going to ask a rhetorical question that I have previously asked within this thread.  However, I am done with this thread.



Good idea. Biblical separation is a difficult doctrine to grasp for a lot of folks.


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## Oldstick (Dec 13, 2006)

Huntinfool said:


> Anybody else interested in seeing this Biblical justification?
> 
> I'd be interested in some proof that church music should not resemble the bar down the street in terms of the TYPE of music and the instruments used.  QUOTE]
> 
> Also, (I have been told  )  there are some bars or other cocktail oriented gatherings where they play piano and other sorts of classical music.


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## Chuck Martin (Dec 22, 2006)

I've always been saddended by these types of ........debates. The Father in Heaven desires a personal relationship with us as individuals. Now what that looks like with me or you may be different, but the bottom line is our relationship with Him. I know in my heart that denominations and the garbage that goes with them are the establishment of man. Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of God and what it looked like over and over again in the Gospels.........and some of what I see in this thread isn't reprensitive of the Kingdom that my Lord spoke of. Historically, we as man, have always messed it up. I grew up in a traditional Baptist church on hymns and bluegrass southern Gospel and love them. I love Third Day and the modern hymns that they have written (These Thousand Hills) as well as their contempory stuff. The countless Christain Praise and Worship leaders that are doing their own thing making a joyful noise to the Lord to Glorify Him regardless of what the flavor sounds like are a pleasure to His ears because they Praise His Mighty Name.  When I sit around with my sons and we're playing guitars and bass and jimbaas and having home church we sing traditional hyms, modern hymns, modern praise songs and spontanious worship to the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

I've experienced many different "flavors" of orginized church in my walk with the Lord and I will state for the record that none of them in all phases and facits truely reflect the heart of the Father.......why, because we're involved, as long as we are involved in our temperal flesh, we will put some of our desires in it whether we intend to or not. David, known as a man after Gods own heart, praised Him and danced mightly before the Lord in what was considered an undignified mannor by some and was ridiculed. The Lord was chastised and taunted by the orginized "religious" of the day and put to death. Peter, Paul, John and countless nameless others were martered in many ways by the "religious" establishment. The "religious" establishment murdered tens of thousands throughout history in the name of God.........but that didnt make it right or of His Heart.

Often times I'll hear someone quote the Word ......sometimes out of context and other times inerrent translation. Some things don't translate to english exactly from Hebrew, Greek and Arimaic and in our own ignorance we accept a "translation" as the Gospel. None of the translations from the KJV to The Message are 100% accurate as it pertains to the original text. You have to dig go back to the origional text to understand the richness of the language and the colorful illustriations that it was written in so you can gain the pearl of knowlage.

Here's the bottem line in my eyes........it's a matter of the heart and your personal relationship with the Father. Do you feed them, do you give them something to drink, do you take in the homeless,do you cloth them, do you take care of the sick, do you visit them in jail, do you not judge least you be judged, do you produce fruit in keeping with the heart of God, when people look at you do they see the light of Jesus flowing from you in words and deeds, do you offer Him your first fruits in everything, do you put Him first. Matthew 23 has alot of "woes" in it for the "religious" and if you haven't picked up on it Jesus doesn't like "religious" folk. He wants a people who chase after Him wholeheartedly like little children. Little children always see the best in people until adults who know better teach them the "right way". I don't think Jesus cares what you look like on the outside but rather the inside. He went to the sinners where they were at and was their friend, that's what He was known as.......a friend of sinners and for that I am greatful!

Father forgive us for all this garbage that isn't about You and Your Kingdom.


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