# If you stop and think about it…



## buckpasser (Feb 12, 2022)

If the turkey doc were correct on his theory (the one about is shooting up the place too bad for poor Ol hens to be able to nest successfully cause their man gets killed), wouldn’t the state show that pretty plainly already. 

Hear me out.  Let’s just say that there is a two week difference in peak breeding from the FL line to the TN or NC line (I believe there is actually much more difference than that, probably more like three weeks or more).  For conversation sake let’s keep it at two weeks. If his theory is correct, there would and will be a gradient of higher and higher population as you head south due to the way season dates correlate with breeding. 

So, is there a major difference in population from N to S?  If there’s not, can we officially see the theory as bull yet?  Let me know your thoughts.


----------



## Dupree (Feb 12, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> If the turkey doc were correct on his theory (the one about is shooting up the place too bad for poor Ol hens to be able to nest successfully cause their man gets killed), wouldn’t the state show that pretty plainly already.
> 
> Hear me out.  Let’s just say that there is a two week difference in peak breeding from the FL line to the TN or NC line (I believe there is actually much more difference than that, probably more like three weeks or more).  For conversation sake let’s keep it at two weeks. If his theory is correct, there would and will be a gradient of higher and higher population as you head south due to the way season dates correlate with breeding.
> 
> So, is there a major difference in population from N to S?  If there’s not, can we officially see the theory as bull yet?  Let me know your thoughts.


I think north Georgia has better populations than South Georgia if you made it a blanket statement. Might have something to do with the bigger smz in the north than south.


----------



## antharper (Feb 12, 2022)

I just hope to be able to see one , one day


----------



## buckpasser (Feb 13, 2022)

antharper said:


> I just hope to be able to see one , one day


----------



## buckpasser (Feb 13, 2022)

antharper said:


> I just hope to be able to see one , one day



You should probably come down here then. The later start date theoretically has produced one behind every fork of Bahia grass!


----------



## sea trout (Feb 13, 2022)

What are y'all refering to when you write smz?
Is that reffering to the area of wood the loggers leave at creeks or other errosion areas?
Thanks for clarification.
And sorry about bad spelling, I promise I'm a little smarter than all these red lines under words that I type make me appear


----------



## buckpasser (Feb 13, 2022)

sea trout said:


> What are y'all refering to when you write smz?
> Is that reffering to the area of wood the loggers leave at creeks or other errosion areas?
> Thanks for clarification.
> And sorry about bad spelling, I promise I'm a little smarter than all these red lines under words that I type make me appear



Haha!  SMZ is a streamside management zone. It’s listed in the BMP for forestry.  It’s easy in a “text book” creek situation. It gets a little cloudy on super flat ground and it is fairly widely ignored everywhere.


----------



## NUTT (Feb 13, 2022)

Who is this Turkey doc guy you speak of?


----------



## 3chunter (Feb 13, 2022)

Nothing beats great habitat and trapping and not doing stupid crap like hay cutting in may. Also cutting roost areas can kill the population in the whole area. Most of the roost areas are sanctuary as well.  When you cut those places the turkeys disappear….and they might not have a reason to come back.  Ever. 
no season change or limit change will solve the current issue.  That’s just the fact.


----------



## kmckinnie (Feb 13, 2022)

3chunter said:


> Nothing beats great habitat and trapping and not doing stupid crap like hay cutting in may. Also cutting roost areas can kill the population in the whole area. Most of the roost areas are sanctuary as well.  When you cut those places the turkeys disappear….and they might not have a reason to come back.  Ever.
> no season change or limit change will solve the current issue.  That’s just the fact.


So a farmer cattle man. Slash person who sells hay. Shouldn’t cut hay on his own land or land he leases to cut hay. 
Please explain why no hay cutting then.


----------



## kmckinnie (Feb 13, 2022)

Oh they cutting right up to creeks now. Trees that where left from the last cut. Then pines cut. Hard woods got cut closer.


----------



## 3chunter (Feb 13, 2022)

kmckinnie said:


> So a farmer cattle man. Slash person who sells hay. Shouldn’t cut hay on his own land or land he leases to cut hay.
> Please explain why no hay cutting then.



Hunting clubs bushhogging is just as bad.  See it everyyear in may and June. 
Ride the hay field first or wait to cut it.  
Same with a club. January and February are great months to do bushhogging and limbing and such.


----------



## Nicodemus (Feb 13, 2022)

3chunter said:


> Nothing beats great habitat and trapping and not doing stupid crap like hay cutting in may. Also cutting roost areas can kill the population in the whole area. Most of the roost areas are sanctuary as well.  When you cut those places the turkeys disappear….and they might not have a reason to come back.  Ever.
> no season change or limit change will solve the current issue.  That’s just the fact.




You`re saying a man whose living and paycheck rely on haycutting, breaking land, and farming, should just wait so you might hunt for your fun and entertainment? Open your eyes and step into the real world. Or maybe just donate your paycheck to him.


----------



## 3chunter (Feb 13, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> You`re saying a man whose living and paycheck rely on haycutting, breaking land, and farming, should just wait so you might hunt for your fun and entertainment? Open your eyes and step into the real world. Or maybe just donate your paycheck to him.


Not saying that exactly.  They could ride the field first to see if hens are setting.  Or we could create a program that gives incentives that would make up for hay lost or something.  The bigger issue is the folks that have clubs. They plan this big work day may or June.  The worst time to be doing club cleanup.


----------



## Throwback (Feb 13, 2022)

antharper said:


> I just hope to be able to see one , one day


I saw one last year.  One. 
Total. 
Didn’t even go Turkey hunting because I couldn’t bring myself to shoot the only Turkey on our place where we used to be covered in them.


----------



## gma1320 (Feb 13, 2022)

I think the problem on my place is my hen to gobbler ratio is way outta wack  according to the quality turkey management association standards of a 1:1 ratio.  DNR should really open up a hen killin season so these ratios can be corrected.


----------



## kmckinnie (Feb 13, 2022)

3chunter said:


> Hunting clubs bushhogging is just as bad.  See it everyyear in may and June.
> Ride the hay field first or wait to cut it.
> Same with a club. January and February are great months to do bushhogging and limbing and such.


What about timber clear cutting them 2 months May & June. Think maybe they should not do it then too ! “WE” could create a incentive program for that also !


----------



## kmckinnie (Feb 13, 2022)

gma1320 said:


> I think the problem on my place is my hen to gobbler ratio is way outta wack  according to the quality turkey management association standards of a 1:1 ratio.  DNR should really open up a hen killin season so these ratios can be corrected.


Why can’t we capture and relocate.


----------



## buckpasser (Feb 13, 2022)

kmckinnie said:


> What about timber clear cutting them 2 months May & June. Think maybe they should not do it then too ! “WE” could create a incentive program for that also !



I know you’re being silly right now, but a hay cutter usually destroys the hen with the nest.  Loggers cutting timber normally blows her off, to nest another day.  Luckily there’s not a lot of people with thick enough hay fields around here to have hens nesting in them. Cover crop, on the other hand…


----------



## kmckinnie (Feb 13, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I know you’re being silly right now, but a hay cutter usually destroys the hen with the nest.  Loggers cutting timber normally blows her off, to nest another day.


No way your going to stop either. And I was being silly.


----------



## buckpasser (Feb 13, 2022)

kmckinnie said:


> No way your going to stop either. And I was being silly.



I know and I know.


----------



## buckpasser (Feb 13, 2022)

My point is, we can’t do much about a lot of the things that are actually effecting turkey populations. Meanwhile the state has chosen to address imaginary ones.


----------



## buckpasser (Feb 13, 2022)

NUTT said:


> Who is this Turkey doc guy you speak of?



A legend.


----------



## Katalee (Feb 13, 2022)

Most hay cutting around me doesn't happen till June.


----------



## kmckinnie (Feb 13, 2022)

Katalee said:


> Most hay cutting around me doesn't happen till June.


I only know if 2 maybe 3 hayfields around me. I never really see them deep enough to hide a quail nest. Much less a turkey. I bet they may have some nest off the side of the fields. It’s clear cut timber land around most. Grown up stuff  of different ages.


----------



## Gadget (Feb 13, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> You`re saying a man whose living and paycheck rely on haycutting, breaking land, and farming, should just wait so you might hunt for your fun and entertainment? Open your eyes and step into the real world. Or maybe just donate your paycheck to him.



Lol...I was just saying in another thread that a lot of turkey hunters make the mistake of thinking other people care about a turkey.


----------



## Nicodemus (Feb 13, 2022)

Gadget said:


> Lol...I was just saying in another thread that a lot of turkey hunters make the mistake of thinking other people care about a turkey.




Some folks care about a roof over their head, food on the table, clothes on their back, the needs of their family, and making a living. Many out there don`t care about the needs of others, as long as they have a critter to hunt. My thoughts about people like that can`t be spoken on a family friendly website.


----------



## Gadget (Feb 13, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Some folks care about a roof over their head, food on the table, clothes on their back, the needs of their family, and making a living. Many out there don`t care about the needs of others, as long as they have a critter to hunt. My thoughts about people like that can`t be spoken on a family friendly website.



Along the same lines in another thread where someone thought logging companies should change the way they do buisness cutting timber to cater to hunters and wild turkey


----------



## kayaksteve (Feb 13, 2022)

I’m not a die hard turkey hunter. I usually stay pretty quiet in these discussions because I know there’s alot of people that are very passionate about this subject and take this stuff alot more personally than me. I do turkey hunt every year and enjoy it and most years I’ll luck up atleast once and shoot one. I think a large majority of the turkey problems are habitat and predators along with several other things. I think as hunters and conservationists we would love to see some logging and farming practices changed and development to slow WAY down. But us or the DNR has no control over 95% percent of that in the state because it’s on private land. Even if they could perfectly manage every inch of public land it would still be only a small percentage of the state. Turkey numbers are for sure dropping (or just fluctuating). In my mind the only option the DNR has is to cut seasons and limits some or let us continue to shoot out the population and see if they recover on their on or not. I think this is a tough one with no easy solution and no matter what the DNR get beat up for either “not doing anything to save our turkeys” if numbers continue to drop or “cutting season and limits for no reason” if they do recover.


----------



## kmckinnie (Feb 13, 2022)

The timber lands around here have turkey. Private lands around here have turkey. The turkey numbers here are down from the hay day but seems to be rising here now. He turkey here move from area to area. This year I watched 4 gobblers fly up. Looked roosted. Before it was over they pitched in different directions and flew I know a mile different way. The range of a turkey is way greater than a deer. Couple days later 4 birds appeared on my camera in that area again. That night I watched as they separated by miles in moments.


----------



## Pig Predator (Feb 13, 2022)

I see a bunch of @dang turkeys everywhere i go up here in the hay fields. Counted 35 just the other day in my back yard in the woods.


----------



## buckpasser (Feb 13, 2022)

kayaksteve said:


> I’m not a die hard turkey hunter. I usually stay pretty quiet in these discussions because I know there’s alot of people that are very passionate about this subject and take this stuff alot more personally than me. I do turkey hunt every year and enjoy it and most years I’ll luck up atleast once and shoot one. I think a large majority of the turkey problems are habitat and predators along with several other things. I think as hunters and conservationists we would love to see some logging and farming practices changed and development to slow WAY down. But us or the DNR has no control over 95% percent of that in the state because it’s on private land. Even if they could perfectly manage every inch of public land it would still be only a small percentage of the state. Turkey numbers are for sure dropping (or just fluctuating). In my mind the only option the DNR has is to cut seasons and limits some or let us continue to shoot out the population and see if they recover on their on or not. I think this is a tough one with no easy solution and no matter what the DNR get beat up for either “not doing anything to save our turkeys” if numbers continue to drop or “cutting season and limits for no reason” if they do recover.



My point with this thread isn’t logging or farming or any of that. It’s the stupidity of making a change on a later opener with no proof that it would or will help a darn thing.  DNR has done good by not allowing hen harvest, not allowing a fall season with a spring season, and now just recently putting a daily limit cap on them. The season limit is really neither here nor there to me, because two is good season.  Just can’t stand the date change with no cause and no reason except TD believes it might help. So dumb.


----------



## Pig Predator (Feb 13, 2022)

May be to give them more time to breed? Just spit ballin here....


----------



## buckpasser (Feb 13, 2022)

Pig Predator said:


> May be to give them more time to breed? Just spit ballin here....



That it will. We could stop deer season until Feb too. That would help them have an easier go at it.  I thought the idea was to hunt them during breeding season?


----------



## herb mcclure (Feb 13, 2022)

My understanding for the later season opening, is so the dominant gobblers who does the main breeding of the hens, will live a few days longer before some of us bloodthirsty gobbler killers kill him off,  and before the hens have a chance who have  chosen him to breed with.  If that happens, then a dominance peck-of-order, starts all over again. 
Wild Turkeys live by a peck-of-order, both hens and gobblers, and they choose their mates by establishing  their dominance. We hunters interfere with their mating when hunting at this critical time, especially in this declined population.


----------



## buckpasser (Feb 13, 2022)

herb mcclure said:


> My understanding for the later season opening, is so the dominant gobblers who does the main breeding of the hens, will live a few days longer before some of us bloodthirsty gobbler killers kill him off,  and before the hens have a chance who have  chosen him to breed with.  If that happens, then a dominance peck-of-order, starts all over again.
> Wild Turkeys live by a peck-of-order, both hens and gobblers, and they choose their mates by establishing  their dominance. We hunters interfere with their mating when hunting at this critical time, especially in this declined population.



Absolutely no disrespect meant here Mr Herb, but where your are vs where I am (both in GA), are on vastly different time lines. The season will now come in at about the right time for you and your turkeys.  Well, actually yours likely still won’t be breeding too much, but my season will be opening ridiculously late.  All that you just stated came from the turkey doc and is an UNPROVEN theory.  Turkeys have done well for a long time with the old season dates. They are about to be trending up again IMO, because that’s just what they do.


----------



## herb mcclure (Feb 13, 2022)

What I just stated has come from 65 years of studding and hunting wild turkeys. No turkey doc's involved. I have lived with wild turkeys for many years, just like Joe Hutto and a longbow Dave, who comes on the forum here from Wisconsin.  
Not disagreeing  with you about your mating season coming earlythan the mountains. 
This later season were you are living, won't hurt your  turkeys there at all, its the turkeys hunters who don' t want to accept giving up a change.


----------



## buckpasser (Feb 14, 2022)

herb mcclure said:


> What I just stated has come from 65 years of studding and hunting wild turkeys. No turkey doc's involved. I have lived with wild turkeys for many years, just like Joe Hutto and a longbow Dave, who comes on the forum here from Wisconsin.
> Not disagreeing  with you about your mating season coming earlythan the mountains.
> This later season were you are living, won't hurt your  turkeys there at all, its the turkeys hunters who don' t want to accept giving up a change.



I’m not the world’s best turkey hunter, but I’m getting close to 30 years in this turkey hunting game and I manage wildlife for a living.  No one has ever stated that killing Toms (not hens) too early has hurt their overall population until the turkey doc did it as far as I know. No one including him has proved that changing that will help anything at all. 

My original point still leads me to ask this simple question; Is the population higher in South Georgia than North?  Is the population higher in South Alabama than North?  If the answer is no, the theory is dead. If the answer is yes, I’d like to hear about it and I’ll keep my mouth shut.


----------



## Whit90 (Feb 14, 2022)

@buckpasser I have never hunting South GA, but I have spent a lot of time hunting the North East part of the sate and the numbers are for sure low there. I think what this all boils down to is that there is no state wide solution and unfortunately the state seems to want to manage it that way (the whole state as opposed to regions).

You probably know this, but last year the antler restrictions on GA WMAs changed from having rules for each individual WMA (some had the same rules) to being the same across the board. I asked Charlie Killmaster what the reason was for the change and he told me that people were complaining about the different WMAs having differing rules, and that people were were getting confused. So the antler restrictions were literally changed to be the same across all of the WMAs to eliminate confusion. I don't agree that the state should have made this change to appease some people out there that cant simply read the regs to the WMA that they are going to hunt.

My point is that the state should be managed regionally when it comes to regulations, but it seems that the state is adamant to do so because its simply easier to make state wide rules so our stupid residents don't get confused. 

Its sad.


----------



## Gaswamp (Feb 17, 2022)

I would say the numbers are probably lower overall in the Mountains.  Some places in South georiga have good numbers, some not so much.  I have often thought that land fragmentation is hurting Turkeys in certain areas of the state, but the Natl Forest in North Georgia that would not b the case.  I would imagine there it would be more land diversity


----------



## Long Cut (Feb 18, 2022)

Check out the time stamps on these 2 trail camera pictures. 
Not even factoring in the raccoon and opossums, either. 
Don’t believe fire ants are helping the poults as they hatch, either.
My .02


----------



## buckpasser (Feb 21, 2022)

Coyotes are pretty slick. I doubt they waste much time pursuing things they can’t catch.  I’ve had them charge my decoy multiple times. I also found the remains of a fresh killed gobbler down in a creek bed just in from the plot I’d been hunting him at. I can’t say what killed him, but there were coyote tracks present and feeding on the carcass.


----------



## antharper (Feb 22, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Coyotes are pretty slick. I doubt they waste much time pursuing things they can’t catch.  I’ve had them charge my decoy multiple times. I also found the remains of a fresh killed gobbler down in a creek bed just in from the plot I’d been hunting him at. I can’t say what killed him, but there were coyote tracks present and feeding on the carcass.


I call in at least a couple coyotes every Turkey season . I’m sure they aren’t exercising


----------



## BeardbustR (Feb 27, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Absolutely no disrespect meant here Mr Herb, but where your are vs where I am (both in GA), are on vastly different time lines. The season will now come in at about the right time for you and your turkeys.  Well, actually yours likely still won’t be breeding too much, but my season will be opening ridiculously late.  All that you just stated came from the turkey doc and is an UNPROVEN theory.  Turkeys have done well for a long time with the old season dates. They are about to be trending up again IMO, because that’s just what they do.


Seems like the later the season the better. The hens will be bred and on nests and the gobblers are still looking for hens to breed. The woods are all greened up and easier to hide and get closer to a willing gobbler. What's the issue? All my GA. birds came at the tail end of the season last year.


----------



## buckpasser (Feb 27, 2022)

BeardbustR said:


> Seems like the later the season the better. The hens will be bred and on nests and the gobblers are still looking for hens to breed. The woods are all greened up and easier to hide and get closer to a willing gobbler. What's the issue? All my GA. birds came at the tail end of the season last year.



What part of the state are you in/hunting in?


----------



## BeardbustR (Mar 3, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> What part of the state are you in/hunting in?


I hunt from about middle Ga. north into east Tn. and try to hunt a few times in Alabama around the Tnf area. I've found the gobblers are willing to mate just about any time they think a hen will let them.


----------



## Gadget (Mar 3, 2022)

BeardbustR said:


> Seems like the later the season the better. The hens will be bred and on nests and the gobblers are still looking for hens to breed. The woods are all greened up and easier to hide and get closer to a willing gobbler. What's the issue? All my GA. birds came at the tail end of the season last year.





BeardbustR said:


> I hunt from about middle Ga. north into east Tn. and try to hunt a few times in Alabama around the Tnf area. I've found the gobblers are willing to mate just about any time they think a hen will let them.




Yeah you and your dad did good on Cohutta last season.


----------



## Gut_Pile (Mar 3, 2022)

Buckpasser, I have never hunted your part of the state, but do you have issues killing gobblers in mid April?


----------



## Gut_Pile (Mar 3, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> No one has ever stated that killing Toms (not hens) too early has hurt their overall population until the turkey doc did it as far as I know.



Bill Healy (long time USDA biologist) recommended post breeding season dates as far back as the 70's. Let me do some digging and I will find the info


----------



## Dustin Pate (Mar 3, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Some folks care about a roof over their head, food on the table, clothes on their back, the needs of their family, and making a living. Many out there don`t care about the needs of others, as long as they have a critter to hunt. My thoughts about people like that can`t be spoken on a family friendly website.



Hay cutting on the family farm gets done when it is ready to cut. Plain and simple. We work within the weather and enough other factors as well. We still have plenty of turkeys around to hunt. I only know of one nest that got cut over the last 15 years.


----------



## BeardbustR (Mar 3, 2022)

I wouldn't want to be a hen trying to lay and hatch a nest full of eggs with all the predators in the woods trying to get to them. You add a bunch of hunters walking through the woods during breeding season busting them off their nests, spooking them as they try to do their daily business of surviving. It's no wonder that poult numbers are down. The stress level on them is enormous. I have spooked hens and watched them drop eggs as they fly off and found stray eggs here and there and know that a spooked hen probably dropped it. Add all the open areas, food plots, hunters like to provide for turkeys. Those are kill zones that birds of prey just sit on and pick the poults off one by one. I think feeders are another ambush spot for predators and have the potential to infect the birds with various diseases that are fatal to them. The restocking program done back in the 70's was a great success temporarily. But as the years go by and more of the wild traits of the turkey are diluted by the genes of inferior birds, our wild turkey is turning more and more domestic, unable to survive in the wild. The turkeys we hunt today are nothing like the pure wild birds we use to hunt years ago.


----------



## RedHills (Mar 3, 2022)

BeardbustR said:


> But as the years go by and more of the wild traits of the turkey are diluted by the genes of inferior birds, our wild turkey is turning more and more domestic, unable to survive in the wild. The turkeys we hunt today are nothing like the pure wild birds we use to hunt years ago.



Agree with most of your comments....but this I'll have to think on. On face, it seems completely against the proven intelligence of nature and natural things.


----------



## Nicodemus (Mar 3, 2022)

BeardbustR said:


> I wouldn't want to be a hen trying to lay and hatch a nest full of eggs with all the predators in the woods trying to get to them. You add a bunch of hunters walking through the woods during breeding season busting them off their nests, spooking them as they try to do their daily business of surviving. It's no wonder that poult numbers are down. The stress level on them is enormous. I have spooked hens and watched them drop eggs as they fly off and found stray eggs here and there and know that a spooked hen probably dropped it. Add all the open areas, food plots, hunters like to provide for turkeys. Those are kill zones that birds of prey just sit on and pick the poults off one by one. I think feeders are another ambush spot for predators and have the potential to infect the birds with various diseases that are fatal to them. The restocking program done back in the 70's was a great success temporarily. But as the years go by and more of the wild traits of the turkey are diluted by the genes of inferior birds, our wild turkey is turning more and more domestic, unable to survive in the wild. The turkeys we hunt today are nothing like the pure wild birds we use to hunt years ago.




The turkeys we used to hunt back in the 60`s down here in South Georgia didn`t look anything like the turkeys we have here now, Jeff. The turkeys here back then looked like Osceola`s.


----------



## herb mcclure (Mar 3, 2022)

Nicodemus said, " turkeys we used to hunt back in the 60's down here in South Georgia didn't look nothing like the turkeys we have now".
Nicodemus, I have been preaching that same difference for several years now, about the wild turkeys here in the North Georgia Mountain too. I have even wrote a book titled Native Turkeys which tells of comparisons between live trapped stocked turkeys and the original native turkeys I hunted, starting back in the mid-fifties.
My hat is off also to BeardbusteR, for having the gumption, to tell newer hunters what's been happening to today's wild Turkeys.


----------



## Nicodemus (Mar 3, 2022)

herb mcclure said:


> Nicodemus said, " turkeys we used to hunt back in the 60's down here in South Georgia didn't look nothing like the turkeys we have now".
> Nicodemus, I have been preaching that same difference for several years now, about the wild turkeys here in the North Georgia Mountain too. I have even wrote a book titled Native Turkeys which tells of comparisons between live trapped stocked turkeys and the original native turkeys I hunted, starting back in the mid-fifties.
> My hat is off also to BeardbusteR, for having the gumption, to tell newer hunters what's been happening to today's wild Turkeys.




I have your book, and really enjoyed reading it. You might not remember me but we met up at the Perry turkey show back years ago.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 3, 2022)

Gut_Pile said:


> Buckpasser, I have never hunted your part of the state, but do you have issues killing gobblers in mid April?



I can kill them anytime (cause they’re not very smart), but they’re the most fun to hunt down here in March.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 3, 2022)

Gut_Pile said:


> Bill Healy (long time USDA biologist) recommended post breeding season dates as far back as the 70's. Let me do some digging and I will find the info



With that recommendation I bet they called him “Bill the thrill” in his circuits.  Maybe we should move deer season to turkey season and turkey season to red belly season?  Gee whiz.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 3, 2022)

BeardbustR said:


> I wouldn't want to be a hen trying to lay and hatch a nest full of eggs with all the predators in the woods trying to get to them. You add a bunch of hunters walking through the woods during breeding season busting them off their nests, spooking them as they try to do their daily business of surviving. It's no wonder that poult numbers are down. The stress level on them is enormous. I have spooked hens and watched them drop eggs as they fly off and found stray eggs here and there and know that a spooked hen probably dropped it. Add all the open areas, food plots, hunters like to provide for turkeys. Those are kill zones that birds of prey just sit on and pick the poults off one by one. I think feeders are another ambush spot for predators and have the potential to infect the birds with various diseases that are fatal to them. The restocking program done back in the 70's was a great success temporarily. But as the years go by and more of the wild traits of the turkey are diluted by the genes of inferior birds, our wild turkey is turning more and more domestic, unable to survive in the wild. The turkeys we hunt today are nothing like the pure wild birds we use to hunt years ago.



I hate to say that minus your predation comments, I agree with basically nothing you said there.  If there are inferior turkeys put into the woods, they won’t be there long.  I can count on one hand how many hens I’ve blown off the nest while turkey hunting, and I’ve hunted more than I’m proud of.  Just a nothing burger as far as population impact. 

BTW, around here the restocking effort was with net canon caught wild turkeys, not barn yard bronzes.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 3, 2022)

BeardbustR said:


> I hunt from about middle Ga. north into east Tn. and try to hunt a few times in Alabama around the Tnf area. I've found the gobblers are willing to mate just about any time they think a hen will let them.



It’s easy to make comments about a later season being great up that far north. It’s a different world down here. I’m trying to burn the last couple blocks now (too late really, but no choice…) and there are new leaves, not just buds, but LEAVES on my sweetgums.  Spring has sprung here, and we get the short end of the stick.  I won’t have hard feelings for the preseason poachers anymore.


----------



## Gadget (Mar 3, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> The turkeys we used to hunt back in the 60`s down here in South Georgia didn`t look anything like the turkeys we have here now, Jeff. The turkeys here back then looked like Osceola`s.



The old turkey hunters I know hunting in the south Florida Everglades say the only true Osceolas left are down in the Big Cypress swamps at the southern most part of the turkey range, all the other northern Osceola are hybrids mixed with easterns.  They're smaller black gobblers, usually only 12-16lbs, smaller feet, spurs, beards, heads etc.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 3, 2022)

Gadget said:


> The old turkey hunters I know hunting in the south Florida Everglades say the only true Osceolas left are down the Big Cypress swamps at the southern most part of the turkey range, all the other northern Osceola are hybrids mixed the eastern.  They're smaller black gobblers, usually only 12-16lbs, smaller feet, spurs, beards, heads etc.



Do you buy in?  Could they just be regular ‘ol turkeys that live in a swampy jungle and eat woods foods as opposed to a bigger menu?  I personally don’t buy any of the Osceola claim.


----------



## Gadget (Mar 4, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Do you buy in?  Could they just be regular ‘ol turkeys that live in a swampy jungle and eat woods foods as opposed to a bigger menu?  I personally don’t buy any of the Osceola claim.



I've killed 10-12 of them in Big Cypress and they're much different then the rest of Florida, like little pigmy turkey; my guys made camp yesterday in there actually, I couldn't make it this year. The deer are pigmies too, especially down in the keys where they call them key deer.


----------



## turkeykirk (Mar 4, 2022)

Gadget said:


> I've killed 10-12 of them in Big Cypress and they're much different then the rest of Florida, like little pigmy turkey; my guys made camp yesterday in there actually, I couldn't make it this year. The deer are pigmies too, especially down in the keys where they call them key deer.



Off topic, but do you think that the python problem affect the turkey population down there.?


----------



## Gadget (Mar 4, 2022)

turkeykirk said:


> Off topic, but do you think that the python problem affect the turkey population down there.?



According to my friend who has lived inside Big Cypress for several decades not much. The TV python hunter Dusty Bought a piece of land in there too. They aren't finding em in high numbers. But it's safe to say some have definitely been eaten by pythons. How many is the big question. I ask my friends all the time if they're seeing any in there. a few sightings but it's rare. I've never seen one, nor most people I talk to.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 4, 2022)

Gadget said:


> I've killed 10-12 of them in Big Cypress and they're much different then the rest of Florida, like little pigmy turkey; my guys made camp yesterday in there actually, I couldn't make it this year. The deer are pigmies too, especially down in the keys where they call them key deer.



Reckon how much of that is from just living in a hot, low nutrition environment vs a colder, agricultural type area?  In other words, I’m curious if you swapped eggs from here and put them under a hen down there how much different they’d really look at adulthood.  Anyway, I’m jealous of you and your guys!  I’ve never been that far down, but the videos make it look very interesting, and I’d imagine you’d feel pretty accomplished bagging one of those Toms. Congrats on killing that many!


----------



## Gadget (Mar 4, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Reckon how much of that is from just living in a hot, low nutrition environment vs a colder, agricultural type area?  In other words, I’m curious if you swapped eggs from here and put them under a hen down there how much different they’d really look at adulthood.  Anyway, I’m jealous of you and your guys!  I’ve never been that far down, but the videos make it look very interesting, and I’d imagine you’d feel pretty accomplished bagging one of those Toms. Congrats on killing that many!



That would be an interesting experiment but I do think there is some genetic differences in those birds in extreme south Florida. The coloration is way different which I don't think would change much if you hatched one and fed it grain. Once you drive about an hour north they look like easterns.  They act differently too, the birds down there gobble on the roost in the evenings more, which makes roosting birds a viable option for locating. Also if you can get on a gobbling bird and not have someone mess you up then you stand a real good chance of killing him as they come to a call alot easier. The problem is the population is way down in there, we hunt further in then ever before to find em and get away from the crowds,  Lots of guys scout for days and weeks to find one then go to him hours before daylight to beat other guys. Especially in Bear Island, it's a zoo in there on opening weekend, lots of confrontations and fighting over birds and spots, so much in fact that they're supposed to turn it into a quota hunt next year.

Had too much going on to go this year to the Cypress but I'm hunting the opening week in middle Florida on public land.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 4, 2022)

Gadget said:


> That would be an interesting experiment but I do think there is some genetic differences in those birds in extreme south Florida. The coloration is way different which I don't think would change much if you hatched one and fed it grain. Once you drive about an hour north they look like easterns.  They act differently too, the birds down there gobble on the roost in the evenings more, which makes roosting birds a viable option for locating. Also if you can get on a gobbling bird and not have someone mess you up then you stand a real good chance of killing him as they come to a call alot easier. The problem is the population is way down in there, we hunt further in then ever before to find em and get away from the crowds,  Lots of guys scout for days and weeks to find one then go to him hours before daylight to beat other guys. Especially in Bear Island, it's a zoo in there on opening weekend, lots of confrontations and fighting over birds and spots, so much in fact that they're supposed to turn it into a quota hunt next year.
> 
> Had too much going on to go this year to the Cypress but I'm hunting the opening week in middle Florida on public land.



If you have any pictures of those, I’d love to see them. 

As for my original point,  I suppose the Florida hunters would be fine with the entire season opening on, say March 20th?  That’s the logic GA is using on a basically equally diverse state, north to south, and it’s being done in the name of population increase.


----------



## bfriendly (Mar 5, 2022)

Ok so this thread needed a picture. Not to derail, but this birds tail feathers seem to be awful bright or light, versus the bronze fan in my garage. Is it a hybrid or just an eastern with lighter colors? 
I’m ok with the season changing up here, but South Georgia is totally different than north. I think dates should correlate the differences.


----------



## Gadget (Mar 5, 2022)

I stopped posting pictures or talking about kills more than 5 years ago. I have some old threads with pictures but I was thinking of going back and deleting those too. I still get about 5 guys a year sending me PMs asking for information.
Most of Florida opens the 19th this year(the 3rd Saturday in March), only in far South Florida it opens the first Saturday in March which is today March 6th.


----------



## herb mcclure (Mar 5, 2022)

bfriendly said:


> View attachment 1139294
> Ok so this thread needed a picture. Not to derail, but this birds tail feathers seem to be awful bright or light, versus the bronze fan in my garage. Is it a hybrid or just an eastern with lighter colors?
> I’m ok with the season changing up here, but South Georgia is totally different than north. I think dates should correlate the differences.



In references to bfriendly post of the lighter colored turkey's feathers shown in his photo, I agree with BeardbustR's  quote of wild turkeys becoming more domesticated and their genes becoming mixed-up. 
Even when live trapped wild turkeys were being stocked across Georgia in the 70's, I notice how different the turkeys were that were being stocked in the newer places, from the original native turkeys, where I had been hunting for the 20 pious  years in remote mountains.
 My comparisons of these differences in wild turkeys are from their wildness, coloration, and living in man's civilizations, and I have killed wild turkeys from 15 different Georgia counties.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 5, 2022)

bfriendly said:


> View attachment 1139294
> Ok so this thread needed a picture. Not to derail, but this birds tail feathers seem to be awful bright or light, versus the bronze fan in my garage. Is it a hybrid or just an eastern with lighter colors?
> I’m ok with the season changing up here, but South Georgia is totally different than north. I think dates should correlate the differences.



They’re just Easterns. The “subspecies” thing is mostly fiction anyway. There’s just one species of wild turkey (and tame turkey) that we deal with in North America.  Maybe I’m just hard headed, but I’ve been around a little bit too, and spent a lot of money on pursuit of turkeys.  I began to have my doubts in Kansas when my friend shot an “eastern” and shot a “Rio”.  As for the turkeys of GA being bred down with domestic stock, uh, no. 

Very pretty turkey picture though!


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 5, 2022)

Gadget said:


> I stopped posting pictures or talking about kills more than 5 years ago. I have some old threads with pictures but I was thinking of going back and deleting those too. I still get about 5 guys a year sending me PMs asking for information.
> Most of Florida opens the 19th this year(the 3rd Saturday in March), only in far South Florida it opens the first Saturday in March which is today March 6th.



I’m sorry to hear that.  My personal experience with “Osceloas” is that they are no different than the turkeys that inhabit the Piscola creek and surrounding areas of south GA.  I was hoping to see something different.  Those dates seem about right to me, and south GA should be about a week behind that, just like it used to be.  North GA was the dreamland of early hunting before the change I guess.


----------



## Gadget (Mar 6, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m sorry to hear that.  My personal experience with “Osceloas” is that they are no different than the turkeys that inhabit the Piscola creek and surrounding areas of south GA.  I was hoping to see something different.  Those dates seem about right to me, and south GA should be about a week behind that, just like it used to be.  North GA was the dreamland of early hunting before the change I guess.



I agree, they don't look or act noticeably different until you get to the Everglades in South Florida.


----------



## earlyspur (Mar 7, 2022)

The same folks crying about turkey season being too late in south Georgia are crying about deer season closing too early. Maybe the season doesn't allow you to hunt when you want to hunt or when the weather is right (I love March turkey hunts), but make no mistake about it, the south GA turkey population nor habitat is what it was 20, 10, or even 5 years ago. And despite the old "low hunter recruitment" garbage that the hunting media outlets spew, I can promise you that more gobblers are being pursued by more people than ever before. How about you all just take the 7 week season instead of 8 weeks and put all these years of experience that keeps getting boasted about to good work and get your 2 birds then hit the lake.

And before I get hit with the question. Bainbridge, GA. If I hunted any further south in GA it would be Florida.


----------



## Gut_Pile (Mar 9, 2022)

Gadget said:


> The old turkey hunters I know hunting in the south Florida Everglades say the only true Osceolas left are down in the Big Cypress swamps at the southern most part of the turkey range, all the other northern Osceola are hybrids mixed with easterns.  They're smaller black gobblers, usually only 12-16lbs, smaller feet, spurs, beards, heads etc.



The one I killed yesterday fit this description perfectly. I didn't have a scale but I would be shocked if he weighed over 12lbs. He didn't have a beard, had 3/4" spurs and tiny feet. Also had a little peanut head.  

To give an idea on how small he was, each side of his breast meat fit into sandwich bags.


----------



## Gadget (Mar 9, 2022)

Gut_Pile said:


> The one I killed yesterday fit this description perfectly. I didn't have a scale but I would be shocked if he weighed over 12lbs. He didn't have a beard, had 3/4" spurs and tiny feet. Also had a little peanut head.
> 
> To give an idea on how small he was, each side of his breast meat fit into sandwich bags.



That sounds about right Will. Congrats on your Osceola.
 My guys have been rough camping a week now, haven't got updates, no cell service. Stinks I couldn't make it this year but I leave to hunt the northern zone opener next Thursday on public land.


----------



## Gut_Pile (Mar 9, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> With that recommendation I bet they called him “Bill the thrill” in his circuits.  Maybe we should move deer season to turkey season and turkey season to red belly season?  Gee whiz.



"post breeding" being after the majority of hens have been bred and have begun to nest. The same thing Chamberlain and many others are recommending now.

I have the full book written by Bill on PDF if you want a copy of it. Their studies were done all over the country.

I doubt any of it will change your opinion as you seem pretty stuck in your ways but the science is out there and has been for a very long time.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 9, 2022)

Gut_Pile said:


> "post breeding" being after the majority of hens have been bred and have begun to nest. The same thing Chamberlain and many others are recommending now.
> 
> I have the full book written by Bill on PDF if you want a copy of it. Their studies were done all over the country.
> 
> I doubt any of it will change your opinion as you seem pretty stuck in your ways but the science is out there and has been for a very long time.



I agree. I’m stuck here in common sense and show me land. When has the “science” ever proven that a delayed season or harvest of TOMS would make one little bit of difference in poult recruitment?  To ask my original question again, is the south end of the state more highly populated or resilient to turkey population fluctuation due to having a much later start to hunting vs breeding?  I’m trying to offer real and pertinent questions and food for thought here on the recent changes. I say it’s hog wash. Prove me wrong.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 9, 2022)

earlyspur said:


> The same folks crying about turkey season being too late in south Georgia are crying about deer season closing too early. Maybe the season doesn't allow you to hunt when you want to hunt or when the weather is right (I love March turkey hunts), but make no mistake about it, the south GA turkey population nor habitat is what it was 20, 10, or even 5 years ago. And despite the old "low hunter recruitment" garbage that the hunting media outlets spew, I can promise you that more gobblers are being pursued by more people than ever before. How about you all just take the 7 week season instead of 8 weeks and put all these years of experience that keeps getting boasted about to good work and get your 2 birds then hit the lake.
> 
> And before I get hit with the question. Bainbridge, GA. If I hunted any further south in GA it would be Florida.



If I were in Bainbridge I would feel really low about habitat change.  And, yes!  Many more hunters in this part of the world, no doubt about it.  As for complaining about season dates for extreme SWGA deer and turkeys; guilty, and not apologizing.  The “do something” cry babies were loud when they wanted change, and I intend to point out the facts now as I see them.  I say this change was not only an unproven theory, but a demonstrably debunked stupid idea. Again, if I’m wrong, show me. Are the populations better in S GA and S AL than north???


----------



## Gut_Pile (Mar 9, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I agree. I’m stuck here in common sense and show me land. When has the “science” ever proven that a delayed season or harvest of TOMS would make one little bit of difference in poult recruitment?  To ask my original question again, is the south end of the state more highly populated or resilient to turkey population fluctuation due to having a much later start to hunting vs breeding?  I’m trying to offer real and pertinent questions and food for thought here on the recent changes. I say it’s hog wash. Prove me wrong.


To answer your question, I have hunted south, middle, north, east, and west GA and all of them more than once. I consistently see/hear more turkeys in the southern portion of the state than others.


----------



## Gut_Pile (Mar 9, 2022)

And since the turkey doc and these new theories based on research findings have come about, I have always thought the birds in the southern part of the state have done better due to their breeding starting earlier than the birds in middle and north GA
I do think the state should have different season dates based on location.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 9, 2022)

Gut_Pile said:


> To answer your question, I have hunted south, middle, north, east, and west GA and all of them more than once. I consistently see/hear more turkeys in the southern portion of the state than others.



This map isn’t super fresh, but if the theory were true, it would still be reflected (2014).  Notice, no noticeable gradient in GA, AL, or even N Florida just south of GA where season traditionally opened 1 week earlier. It’s bull Sir.


----------



## Gut_Pile (Mar 9, 2022)

You and I agree on a lot of things. I too believe habitat is the #1 reason turkeys have struggled. But the state can’t make private land owners improve habitat. Habitat is going to be the #1 struggle for turkeys moving forward as human encroachment continues throughout the SE. Maybe this season change doesn’t work, but if it does get more hens nesting at the same time, and makes it tougher on predators to predate nests, then I’m good to give it a try. I’ll take 4 weeks of awesome hunting over 8 weeks of decent hunting.
I was wary of some of these theory’s at first as well, but after spending three days in turkey camp with Chamberlain I fully believe he is a knowledgeable person that is suggesting changes based on research. The knowledge he has around these birds is incredible. And the real time knowledge of gps’d birds and what they are doing at that exact moment is fascinating to me.  Mainly bc I got to see him getting real time info from across the SE right in front of my eyes.
Hes a turkey hunter first just like you and I, and while you believe he is a crock, I think different.
We, as hunters, should hope he’s right.


----------



## herb mcclure (Mar 10, 2022)

Why does our stubborn opinions mean so much about season change? When changing the season date has been done in good faith, to try to help our dwindling wild turkeys population. No one knows for sure that it will help anything , or that it could make a difference in their population for the better.

From the pounding most public land and some hunt clubs get, why not let the turkeys have a go at their breeding before all of us start killing and disturbing.
If the population keeps going down, I for one, are in favor of closing the season altogether, to see if it will make a difference then.Of course, habitat and predators work, will still need to be done were one hunts.  

Yes, the state of Georgia needs should have an earlier opener in the Southern part of the state, than the Northern part. But, unfortunately Georgia does not have that.

Something else I have learned, and it was not from the "turkey docs" either, which I have been accused of learning from. Older turkey hens mate first, and then the younger hens from last season are the last hens mating in the Spring, which is nature's way to help when something may have went wrong in the early season. Therefore, it is not all just re-nesting old hens when you see extra young poults in mid-Summer.


----------



## Phillip Thurmond (Mar 10, 2022)

I used to bush hog my club land every April thinking I was keeping the food plots low and nice for the turkeys. What I found was turkey nest that I would run over and bust or expose to predators. So I had to start that process much sooner before they chose the grown up fields for nesting or delay it until after hatch.  I bet I killed lots of turkeys until I realized this and stopped


----------

