# The True Tragedy of the Orlando Terrorist Attack.



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 13, 2016)

Does anyone besides me think the real tragedy of the terrorist attack in Orlando is that 50 souls went to He11, or have we become so PC that it's easier just to not care anymore.....just sit back in our pews or recliners and pretend that doesn't apply to "US",today.  And no I don't care to see this turn into a discussion on whether He11 is literal or not.  If you want to discuss that, start your own thread.  Just assume it is.  DOES IT MAKE ONE IOTA'S WORTH OF DIFFERENCE TO ANYONE CALLING THEMSELF A CHRISTIAN?  I have seen every conceivable outcome of this tragedy discussed but this, and it seems to me that we are missing the most important point.  If the majority in this Country call themselves Christian (I realize this is a dubious claim at best) then why the heck is there not even a modicum of concern about the fate of our fellow brothers and sisters fate?  Why?


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 13, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Does anyone besides me think the real tragedy of the terrorist attack in Orlando is that 50 souls went to He11, or have we become so PC that it's easier just to not care anymore.....just sit back in our pews or recliners and pretend that doesn't apply to "US",today.  And no I don't care to see this turn into a discussion on whether He11 is literal or not.  If you want to discuss that, start your own thread.  Just assume it is.  DOES IT MAKE ONE IOTA'S WORTH OF DIFFERENCE TO ANYONE CALLING THEMSELF A CHRISTIAN?  I have seen every conceivable outcome of this tragedy discussed but this, and it seems to me that we are missing the most important point.  If the majority in this Country call themselves Christian (I realize this is a dubious claim at best) then why the heck is there not even a modicum of concern about the fate of our fellow brothers and sisters fate?  Why?




they will know we are Christians by the love we show to others.


So much for that knowledge, huh?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 13, 2016)

I think because it was an act of terror by Muslims on our Christian nation. 
It's like when two brothers fight each other. That's OK by the two brothers but when an outsider fights a brother, that's a fight on their brotherhood.
So in that sense, they have waged war with our brother even if our brother is a doomed sinner.

Did you ask the same question if Jews were killed in a US town or an average group of American drunkards or gluttons?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 13, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think because it was an act of terror by Muslims on our Christian nation.
> It's like when two brothers fight each other. That's OK by the two brothers but when an outsider fights a brother, that's a fight on their brotherhood.
> So in that sense, they have waged war with our brother even if our brother is a doomed sinner.
> 
> Did you ask the same question if Jews were killed in a US town or an average group of American drunkards or gluttons?



I take that as a "No" but I did ask the same question about the group of Tajikastani transgenders who were trampled to death in a womens bathroom, on their way to a Bernie Sanders rally, by a herd of rabid musk ox who had been forced north due in part to both global warming and American Imperialism in South Sudan.  Does that count?


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## drippin' rock (Jun 13, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Does anyone besides me think the real tragedy of the terrorist attack in Orlando is that 50 souls went to He11, or have we become so PC that it's easier just to not care anymore.....just sit back in our pews or recliners and pretend that doesn't apply to "US",today.  And no I don't care to see this turn into a discussion on whether He11 is literal or not.  If you want to discuss that, start your own thread.  Just assume it is.  DOES IT MAKE ONE IOTA'S WORTH OF DIFFERENCE TO ANYONE CALLING THEMSELF A CHRISTIAN?  I have seen every conceivable outcome of this tragedy discussed but this, and it seems to me that we are missing the most important point.  If the majority in this Country call themselves Christian (I realize this is a dubious claim at best) then why the heck is there not even a modicum of concern about the fate of our fellow brothers and sisters fate?  Why?



Well what do you propose to do about it?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 13, 2016)

I think the death of any human is a tragedy regardless of where their soul will spend eternity. 
I would have the same sympathy for a bar full of Hetero Christians as I did for a Pagan Gay Biker Rally. Considering they were all Americans.

The fate of those club hoppers is in the hands of God. God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. He could have called any of his sheep from that bunch before they died a physical death.

Not everyone who goes to a gay club is gay. There might have been a few Catholics there recruiting considering it was Latino night.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 14, 2016)

Let the dead bury their dead.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 14, 2016)

NE GA Pappy said:


> they will know we are Christians by the love we show to others.
> 
> 
> So much for that knowledge, huh?



^^^ This ^^^


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## Havana Dude (Jun 14, 2016)

I'm curious as to how you have this knowledge. I'm not being confrontational, in fact, I get these thoughts during times like this myself. We don't know what was on the hearts of the deceased, only they and God know that. I will concede that likely a great many did go to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, but all 50?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 14, 2016)

When the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church members were gunned down, I never questioned the fate of their souls.

"Mormons are the most heavily Republican-leaning religious group in the U.S., while a pair of major historically black Protestant denominations – the African Methodist Episcopal (AME) Church and the National Baptist Convention – are two of the most reliably Democratic groups, according to data from Pew Research Center’s 2014 Religious Landscape Study."

"At the other end of the spectrum, an overwhelming majority of members of the AME Church (92%) identify with or lean toward the Democratic Party, while just 4% say they favor the Republican Party (an 88-point gap)."

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/02/23/u-s-religious-groups-and-their-political-leanings/


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 14, 2016)

Luke 9:60-62
But Jesus told him, “Let the dead bury their own dead. You, however, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” 61Still another said, “I will follow You, Lord; but first let me bid farewell to my family.”  62Then Jesus declared, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and then looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.”

Can we not bury our dead or tell our family members goodbye after becoming disciples of Jesus? 
I do understand that Jesus comes first but still I must take care of my family. 
That would be a true sacrifice to leave your dead father for others to bury and not even say goodbye to your family.


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## NCHillbilly (Jun 14, 2016)

Seems to me that I am not omnipotent or qualified in any way to say that somebody went to He11 or Heaven or anywhere else; and it seems to me a pretty arrogant thing for anyone to think that they have that power. I say that what happens to someone after they die is up to the one who created us, and I or you are not that entity. I don't presume to know things like that. Unless you maybe have some special arrangement with God where you are responsible for helping him judge and condemn people that the rest of us don't have?.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 14, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Does anyone besides me think the real tragedy of the terrorist attack in Orlando is that 50 souls went to He11, or have we become so PC that it's easier just to not care anymore.....just sit back in our pews or recliners and pretend that doesn't apply to "US",today.  And no I don't care to see this turn into a discussion on whether He11 is literal or not.  If you want to discuss that, start your own thread.  Just assume it is.  DOES IT MAKE ONE IOTA'S WORTH OF DIFFERENCE TO ANYONE CALLING THEMSELF A CHRISTIAN?  I have seen every conceivable outcome of this tragedy discussed but this, and it seems to me that we are missing the most important point.  If the majority in this Country call themselves Christian (I realize this is a dubious claim at best) then why the heck is there not even a modicum of concern about the fate of our fellow brothers and sisters fate?  Why?



Personally as a Christian I am indifferent. There is noting I could have done, or can do regards this. My calling to ministry in our Kingdom is specific and very limited. I am not called to prison ministry. I am not called to mission work. ( I have a hard enough time to judge the  people in the Church, let alone wondering in judgement about those possibly out of it.)  And I have no direct line with the bouncers at the Pearly Gate. I am not a Jonah for this.

However my denomination has rarely waved the CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored carrot in my lifetime, so this rarely comes to my mind.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 14, 2016)

NCHillbilly said:


> Seems to me that I am not omnipotent or qualified in any way to say that somebody went to He11 or Heaven or anywhere else; and it seems to me a pretty arrogant thing for anyone to think that they have that power. I say that what happens to someone after they die is up to the one who created us, and I or you are not that entity. I don't presume to know things like that. Unless you maybe have some special arrangement with God where you are responsible for helping him judge and condemn people that the rest of us don't have?.



I don't know that it takes any special insight to conclude that people who die while actively reveling in sinful acts in all likelihood don't make the cut,  so to speak.  It implies no "power" nor " arrogance" to judge between good and evil.  We all do it every day. To not do it equates to self lobotomization.   It seems to me, and this goes back to the point in the OP, that we Christians today don't even care enough about our brothers and sisters to tell them the truth, taking as you appear to have done, a lazzie fare attitude.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 14, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Personally as a Christian I am indifferent.



I'm sorry, but that statement is self-contradictory.  There is absolutely not one iota of doctrine that allows the Christian to be"indifferent" even more specifically when it comes to sin and the plight of our brothers and sisters.  To put it mildly, I'm astounded that a Believer could make such a pronouncement.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 14, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I don't know that it takes any special insight to conclude that people who die while actively reveling in sinful acts in all likelihood don't make the cut,  so to speak.



I think, like NCHillbilly, it takes infinitely more insight than God granted us. We were appointed to keep each other, as Christians, on track, but were not granted the authority to "judge the world, nor the fate of it or it's inhabitants". The reasoning and boundaries for this authority we were granted was for love of our Christian brothers, and ironically we were commissioned to only display love for all others, regardless of their infractions, just as Jesus lead by example. 

As painful as it may seem for many self-righteous Christians, I cannot find one instance in the New Testament when Jesus put a Pharisee in a position of power to do his bidding. 

If we are going to assume that all who sin are going to the hot seat then what about the pedophile priests? What about the Baptist preacher that loves KFC and weighs 400 lbs? What about the church lady that nearly single handed finances the entire church in her community, but smokes a carton a day of cigarettes? 

I can go on..........

What about the Great Commission and the two Greatest Commandments of all. Where do they fit into your wanderings of the mind? Even if I submit to your intentions being of the best and in love for your fellow American, to judge based on the sin, and only singling one out as being the worst is counterproductive to our marching orders at best.


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## NCHillbilly (Jun 14, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I don't know that it takes any special insight to conclude that people who die while actively reveling in sinful acts in all likelihood don't make the cut,  so to speak.  It implies no "power" nor " arrogance" to judge between good and evil.  We all do it every day. To not do it equates to self lobotomization.   It seems to me, and this goes back to the point in the OP, that we Christians today don't even care enough about our brothers and sisters to tell them the truth, taking as you appear to have done, a lazzie fare attitude.



I am not a practicing Christian (in a good part precisely because of the hypocritical, judgemental, holier-than-thou actions and words of so many who profess to be, but don't seem to have listened to their own sermons.) But, I have read the Bible extensively, my dad was a preacher, and I have spent hundreds of hours listening to sermons by a whole slew of preachers. 

Some things that come to mind offhand are "Judge not lest ye be judged," "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" and "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone," and "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." etc. Seems to be a theme in the scriptures for some reason.


I don't play God or make judgements in his name. Nor am I morally qualified to tell others how to live. That is up to God, and is between He and them.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 14, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I don't know that it takes any special insight to conclude that people who die while actively reveling in sinful acts in all likelihood don't make the cut,  so to speak.  It implies no "power" nor " arrogance" to judge between good and evil.  We all do it every day. To not do it equates to self lobotomization.   It seems to me, and this goes back to the point in the OP, that we Christians today don't even care enough about our brothers and sisters to tell them the truth, taking as you appear to have done, a lazzie fare attitude.


It does take special insight to realize that those who died were no greater sinners than the rest of us.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 14, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm sorry, but that statement is self-contradictory.  There is absolutely not one iota of doctrine that allows the Christian to be"indifferent" even more specifically when it comes to sin and the plight of our brothers and sisters.  To put it mildly, I'm astounded that a Believer could make such a pronouncement.



 Maybe it is in part due to the yrs I've worked as a nurse and being a Christian. I have found that most if not all people make choices knowing several to make. For example mine on this subject is indifference.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 14, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> It does take special insight to realize that those who died were no greater sinners than the rest of us.



....before we were saved.  No?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 14, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> ....before we were saved.  No?


Salvation makes you no less of a sinner.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 14, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> ....before we were saved.  No?


No. By awareness(growing in grace and knowledge), my sin has increased. I am thankful for that awareness. It causes me to be more and more dependent upon Christ alone.


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## EverGreen1231 (Jun 14, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Does anyone besides me think the real tragedy of the terrorist attack in Orlando is that 50 souls went to He11, or have we become so PC that it's easier just to not care anymore.....just sit back in our pews or recliners and pretend that doesn't apply to "US",today.  And no I don't care to see this turn into a discussion on whether He11 is literal or not.  If you want to discuss that, start your own thread.  Just assume it is.  DOES IT MAKE ONE IOTA'S WORTH OF DIFFERENCE TO ANYONE CALLING THEMSELF A CHRISTIAN?  I have seen every conceivable outcome of this tragedy discussed but this, and it seems to me that we are missing the most important point.  If the majority in this Country call themselves Christian (I realize this is a dubious claim at best) then why the heck is there not even a modicum of concern about the fate of our fellow brothers and sisters fate?  Why?



I told someone I think it would have been preferable for good, christian folks who believed the Lord to have been the ones shot. They looked at me like I was insane. We have missed the point of it all.

The Lord knows.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 14, 2016)

NCHillbilly said:


> I am not a practicing Christian (in a good part precisely because of the hypocritical, judgemental, holier-than-thou actions and words of so many who profess to be, but don't seem to have listened to their own sermons.) But, I have read the Bible extensively, my dad was a preacher, and I have spent hundreds of hours listening to sermons by a whole slew of preachers.
> 
> Some things that come to mind offhand are "Judge not lest ye be judged," "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" and "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone," and "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." etc. Seems to be a theme in the scriptures for some reason.
> 
> ...



Ah yes,  the "Judge not lest ye be judged....... verse of Matthew 7.    It always comes first when Christians are accused of judging others.  But if you recall he was NOT speaking to saved people but to the unsaved.  This makes all the difference in the world, because he was telling people to repent of their sins and be saved so that they could help their brother to be saved.   Too bad we don't place as much emphasis on the last part of this stanza as we do the first, because if we did we would clearly see that Jesus was not condemning judging between good and evil, but correctly pointing out that until we rid our self of our personal sin, we can not help others rid themselves of theirs.


7 “Do not judge, so that you won’t be judged.  2 For with the judgment you use,[a] you will be judged, and with the measure you use,* it will be measured to you.  3 Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye but don’t notice the log in your own eye?  4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and look, there’s a log in your eye?  5 Hypocrite! First take the log out of your eye, and  then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. 


As to the story of the prostitute.  He did indeed say "he that is without sin cast the first stone." , but I'm not casting stones.  Quiet the opposite,  I'm truly sorry that there's a very real possibility these souls are going to spend eternity apart from God due to their sin.    And Jesus himself acknowledged that sin was to be judged and have consequences as he told the prostitute to "go and sin no more." (another small but rather significant phrase we tend to ignore to justify our fence sitting.)  

Regarding your comment as to playing God and making judgements .  I don't pretend to do either.  He already has.    He judges the individual, but to deny that each of us don't possess both a conscious as well as written instructions that are BOTH "morally competent" to tell us how to live and pass judgement ON ACTIONS is an obvious lie.  It's just sad to me that apparently we have forsook both due to convenience and apathy when so much is on the line.*


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 14, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Salvation makes you no less of a sinner.



If it doesn't decrease the frequency and the nature of the sins being committed I can't see how it's salvation.  In other words, if you consider yourself saved there should be evidence.  I'm by no way implying that one should ever forget they were a sinner, perhaps the worst.   I consider my past sins worse that anyone else's.....anyone's.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 14, 2016)

EverGreen1231 said:


> I told someone I think it would have been preferable for good, christian folks who believed the Lord to have been the ones shot. They looked at me like I was insane. We have missed the point of it all.
> 
> The Lord knows.



Finally, someone who gets it.  We are called to give all to follow Christ even to the point of laying down our lives and we so-called Christians won't even call what God calls a sin, sin not to degrade or disparage others, but out of love to hopefully save them from eternal condemnation.  It appears todays Church is not built on love, but conformation to sin.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 14, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Finally, someone who gets it.  We are called to give all to follow Christ even to the point of laying down our lives and we so-called Christians won't even call what God calls a sin, sin not to degrade or disparage others, but out of love to hopefully save them from eternal condemnation.  It appears todays Church is not built on love, but conformation to sin.



Most churches do consider homosexuality a sin. There are a few denominations that don't but your OP was the fate of the 50 lost souls as if their fate is in the hands of other Christians. 

I guess I and maybe the others that responded don't know exactly what it is you were looking for. It appears your OP is deeper than whether homosexuality is a sin.

What is it that we should feel? Sympathy? No sympathy? Guilt that we haven't reached all of the lost? There is a whole lot more lost souls out there than a few gays that we haven't reached yet. Many have already died. Should we feel guilty about them too?

Why don't we go to work on the Hindu? They must be dying daily yet you are worried about a smaller population of homosexuals. 
He11's gonna be so full of Hindus the gays might have to stay in Limbo.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 14, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If it doesn't decrease the frequency and the nature of the sins being committed I can't see how it's salvation.


If it doesn't increase awareness of the frequency and the nature of the sins being committed I can't see how one is walking in the light.
In other words, everything that I do is mixed with sin. I can see it in my studies, prayers, theological reflections, etc.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 14, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Ah yes,  the "Judge not lest ye be judged....... verse of Matthew 7.    It always comes first when Christians are accused of judging others.  But if you recall he was NOT speaking to saved people but to the unsaved.  This makes all the difference in the world, because he was telling people to repent of their sins and be saved so that they could help their brother to be saved.   Too bad we don't place as much emphasis on the last part of this stanza as we do the first, because if we did we would clearly see that Jesus was not condemning judging between good and evil, but correctly pointing out that until we rid our self of our personal sin, we can not help others rid themselves of theirs.
> 
> 
> 7 “Do not judge, so that you won’t be judged.  2 For with the judgment you use,[a] you will be judged, and with the measure you use,* it will be measured to you.  3 Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye but don’t notice the log in your own eye?  4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and look, there’s a log in your eye?  5 Hypocrite! First take the log out of your eye, and  then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
> ...


*

Judging is one thing but judging one's eternal destiny is a bit much.
I'm pretty sure the Hindus are worshipping the wrong God but I'm not willing to determine their eternal fate.

There could be some type of Unity or Universal salvation that I missed or was wrong about. I don't think so but still, I'll leave their eternal destiny to God's judgment.*


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 14, 2016)

Here is one on judging;

Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

The Jews were quick to judge the Gentiles. Paul reminded the Jews that they the advantage of a greater light. 
Today one might say a Christian has more light on sin than a lost person. Therefore when we pass judgment we condemn ourselves because we "ourselves" still sin. 

You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things.

We all do the very same things. 

"But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Thank goodness for that washing. Amen for the washing. Hallelujah to God for his free grace concept.


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## EverGreen1231 (Jun 14, 2016)

The probability that openly gay people, who are patrons of a well known gay bar, are saved is less than the probability that church-going, bible thumping, giving, loving Christians are saved. That's biblical and sensible. People who are saved normally act like it; y'all know, the "new creature" and ever'thang. That's all the OP was saying.

And, while the death of anyone is sad, I would not, in any case, say the death of a christian is "tragic."


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## gemcgrew (Jun 15, 2016)

EverGreen1231 said:


> The probability that openly gay people, who are patrons of a well known gay bar, are saved is less than the probability that church-going, bible thumping, giving, loving Christians are saved. That's biblical and sensible. People who are saved normally act like it; y'all know, the "new creature" and ever'thang. That's all the OP was saying.
> 
> And, while the death of anyone is sad, I would not, in any case, say the death of a christian is "tragic."


The OP said "the real tragedy of the terrorist attack in Orlando is that 50 souls went to He11".

The real tragedy is that 50 souls went to He11?

God is just.


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## formula1 (Jun 15, 2016)

*re:*

While I can assume that some of these likely will spend eternity separated from God, I cannot know that. But just the thought of knowing 'some' is saddening to me!

Yet I am not called to be a light to the world outside of my sphere of influence. I am called to lift up Jesus where I am and love others where I am.  Abide in Christ and you will have light to those you can influence!!! And that is enough!!!

Jesus said, 'If I be lifted up'. So I think it best to stick to the simple as too much anguish will come upon you otherwise!

God Bless!


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 15, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> The OP said "the real tragedy of the terrorist attack in Orlando is that 50 souls went to He11".
> 
> The real tragedy is that 50 souls went to He11?
> 
> God is just.


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## EverGreen1231 (Jun 15, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> The OP said "the real tragedy of the terrorist attack in Orlando is that 50 souls went to He11".
> 
> The real tragedy is that 50 souls went to He11?
> 
> God is just.



It is a tragedy. They did not have to. Whosoever will, will.

Of course, there's no way of us knowing definitively who went up or down. That lies with The Lord.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 15, 2016)

EverGreen1231 said:


> It is a tragedy. They did not have to. Whosoever will, will.
> 
> Of course, there's no way of us knowing definitively who went up or down. That lies with The Lord.



I think the bigger tragedy lies in the assumption originally stated.


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## NCHillbilly (Jun 15, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Ah yes,  the "Judge not lest ye be judged....... verse of Matthew 7.    It always comes first when Christians are accused of judging others.  But if you recall he was NOT speaking to saved people but to the unsaved.  This makes all the difference in the world, because he was telling people to repent of their sins and be saved so that they could help their brother to be saved.   Too bad we don't place as much emphasis on the last part of this stanza as we do the first, because if we did we would clearly see that Jesus was not condemning judging between good and evil, but correctly pointing out that until we rid our self of our personal sin, we can not help others rid themselves of theirs.
> 
> 
> 7 “Do not judge, so that you won’t be judged.  2 For with the judgment you use,[a] you will be judged, and with the measure you use,* it will be measured to you.  3 Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye but don’t notice the log in your own eye?  4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and look, there’s a log in your eye?  5 Hypocrite! First take the log out of your eye, and  then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
> ...


*

I rest my case. Attitudes like this are mostly what made me quit going to church, along with thousands of other folks. You can believe what you want, and think you are privy to God's mind and better than everyone else to the point of passing judgement on their lives, but you don't know what's in my heart or anyone else's, brother. There are plenty of folks of other denominations and religions who would firmly believe just as strongly that you are hades-bound for your beliefs and actions.

I don't agree with homosexuality any more than you do, but who knows what went on in those folks' hearts during this incident? Again, neither you nor I are qualified to pass judgement on them, even if you think you are. I'll leave God's business up to God.*


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## gemcgrew (Jun 15, 2016)

EverGreen1231 said:


> Of course, there's no way of us knowing definitively who went up or down. That lies with The Lord.


I agree. I see the OP as a theological exercise. In this exercise, He11 is a given and the 50 souls are there.


EverGreen1231 said:


> It is a tragedy.


Tragedy, by definition, is a bad event. That they are there is the result of God's judgement. Everything that God does is good, right, holy and just. So it is good that they are there.


EverGreen1231 said:


> They did not have to.


They are there. They had to go there.


EverGreen1231 said:


> Whosoever will, will.


They are not the whosoever will. They are the whosoever won't.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 15, 2016)

WOW!!! First of all, the last report I read was only 49. So who is the 50th pre-condemned by this sanctimonious blasphemy? 

Second, just because I stand in a garage does not make me a car. Just because they were at a gay bar does not make them gay, nor does it mean they weren't a christian. To only go among the like minded isn't serving any justice to the world. You must go out among them, get to know them, and love them in order to witness to them. 

Third, and most blatantly displayed in this thread. Just because you read the bible and go to a building full of like minded Pharisees each Sunday does not make you a Christian, but based on some of the responses in here, it does qualify you to one day hear the words; "I never knew you".


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## hummerpoo (Jun 15, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Everything that God does is good, right, holy and just



It's just that simple.


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## Havana Dude (Jun 15, 2016)

I'm curious, had this been an airplane crash with 50 souls on board, no survivors, would they all go to he11 ? While I do not agree with homosexuality, the sins of those on that plane are no worse than those of the homosexual. You could argue that they continually engage in sinful behaviour ( unrepented sin), but don't we also? We're all guilty. What if one person on that plane was a strait up genuine heterosexual, with 2.3 kids, married, deacon of the church? Is he condemned to leave this world tragically like the other 49 sexual sinners?


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## hummerpoo (Jun 15, 2016)

1 Cor. 5
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

I am unaware of any scriptural mitigation of this passage.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 15, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I think the bigger tragedy lies in the assumption originally stated.



Really??  I stand appalled!


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 15, 2016)

NCHillbilly said:


> I rest my case. Attitudes like this are mostly what made me quit going to church, along with thousands of other folks. You can believe what you want, and think you are privy to God's mind and better than everyone else to the point of passing judgement on their lives, but you don't know what's in my heart or anyone else's, brother. There are plenty of folks of other denominations and religions who would firmly believe just as strongly that you are hades-bound for your beliefs and actions.
> 
> I don't agree with homosexuality any more than you do, but who knows what went on in those folks' hearts during this incident? Again, neither you nor I are qualified to pass judgement on them, even if you think you are. I'll leave God's business up to God.



It's not my choice to agree or disagree with homosexual ACTS. GOD says it's a sin period. He also says unrepentant sinners who die go to He11 period.    Its a common sense and logical to conclude that those people who died were NOT repentant sinners else they would not have been there.  Therefore if you believe what God says its logical to conclude they went to He11.    Let's be clear.  I am NOT pronouncing judgement as you continue to contend, only reaching a conclusion that is plainly evident.  

What I find telling about this entire thread is it appears more people are indignant about a my "perceived judgement" of the dead than they are of the deads eternal destination.  Even if I was actually passing judgement on them, and I'm not but if I was, to be more offended by that rather than horrified that they may spend eternity apart from God represents a warped view of All that Christ taught


----------



## EverGreen1231 (Jun 15, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Tragedy, by definition, is a bad event. That they are there is the result of God's judgement. Everything that God does is good, right, holy and just. So it is good that they are there.



I agree when put this way. I was speaking relative to myself. Were it not for the Lord's grace, I would be well on my way to meet them.



gemcgrew said:


> They are not the whosoever will. They are the whosoever won't.



Agreed, given, as you pointed out to me, the theological argument in the OP.


----------



## EverGreen1231 (Jun 15, 2016)

NCHillbilly said:


> I rest my case. Attitudes like this are mostly what made me quit going to church, along with thousands of other folks. You can believe what you want, and think you are privy to God's mind and better than everyone else to the point of passing judgement on their lives, but you don't know what's in my heart or anyone else's, brother. There are plenty of folks of other denominations and religions who would firmly believe just as strongly that you are hades-bound for your beliefs and actions.



I am privy to God's mind. He's written it down. He's not made it secret.



NCHillbilly said:


> I don't agree with homosexuality any more than you do, but who knows what went on in those folks' hearts during this incident? Again, neither you nor I are qualified to pass judgement on them, even if you think you are. I'll leave God's business up to God.



Truth. God asked us to play the game and He'd keep score.



NCHillbilly said:


> There are plenty of folks of other denominations and religions who would firmly believe just as strongly that you are hades-bound for your beliefs and actions.



And unless they agree with The Lord, they are wrong.


----------



## Havana Dude (Jun 15, 2016)

Are you at all concerned about the hundreds and thousands  of people murdered in Chicago ( just one city) every year? These folks were likely engaged in sinful behaviour before they succumbed to their injury. Just curious at to why you pick the gay bar incident to discuss this. Also, what do you expect people to do with this information? You want everyone to feel guilty for not trying to lead these specific people to Christ? I'm sorry, but these are matters for God to tend to, not me. It is physically impossible to be a light to EVERYONE, so we are ALL GUILTY. Before you light into me, just remember, we've been pushing God to the back burner for a very long time. ALL OF US. Every second you or I sit on this computer arguing this scenario is time wasted. Virtually everything we do is time wasted as far as trying to lead others to Christ. We have pulled so far away, that most of relegate an hour or 2 on Sunday mornings to him, and even then, can't wait to get out so we can eat lunch. But we have no problem sitting 5-6 hours at a NASCAR race, or a football game. Most folks don't even bother going to church anymore because a MAN hurt their little feelings, and so now they don't want to associate with an entire body of people. Just an excuse if you ask me. 

Going back to your original post. I just don't see how you can make such a blanket statement about those 49/50 people going to he11. How could you possibly know that ? Maybe 1 of those killed was in their witnessing to the lost souls. And I'm not one saying you are passing judgement. I'm simply saying you are making huge assumptions.


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## NCHillbilly (Jun 15, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> It's not my choice to agree or disagree with homosexual ACTS. GOD says it's a sin period. He also says unrepentant sinners who die go to He11 period.    Its a common sense and logical to conclude that those people who died were NOT repentant sinners else they would not have been there.  Therefore if you believe what God says its logical to conclude they went to He11.    Let's be clear.  I am NOT pronouncing judgement as you continue to contend, only reaching a conclusion that is plainly evident.
> 
> What I find telling about this entire thread is it appears more people are indignant about a my "perceived judgement" of the dead than they are of the deads eternal destination.  Even if I was actually passing judgement on them, and I'm not but if I was, to be more offended by that rather than horrified that they may spend eternity apart from God represents a warped view of All that Christ taught



Throughout our world, there are many, many differing views of sin, morality, salvation, afterlife; and the will, identity, and instructions of God. Yours is one of them.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2016)

I hope we reserve the same judgment for unrepentant Christian gossipers, gluttons, yearly income tax swindlers, alcoholics, and Christians who lust daily.

How often must we repent? Daily, hourly? Does our salvation go in and out as we sin and repent?

Why not just repent from thinking we can live good enough to make the grade into believing Jesus died for our sins? Isn't that why we needed him(salvation) to start with. 
If I could do it on my merits, I would have already did it.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 15, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Really??  I stand appalled!


No doubt.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 15, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> WOW!!! First of all, the last report I read was only 49. So who is the 50th pre-condemned by this sanctimonious blasphemy?
> 
> Second, just because I stand in a garage does not make me a car. Just because they were at a gay bar does not make them gay, nor does it mean they weren't a christian. To only go among the like minded isn't serving any justice to the world. You must go out among them, get to know them, and love them in order to witness to them.
> 
> Third, and most blatantly displayed in this thread. Just because you read the bible and go to a building full of like minded Pharisees each Sunday does not make you a Christian, but based on some of the responses in here, it does qualify you to one day hear the words; "I never knew you".



There were 50 as I understand it counting the shooter.  I may be mistaken in that I haven't seen the news in a few days. 

As far as "sanctimonious."  If mourning the fact that 50 souls needlessly and in all probability went to He11 is sanctimonious then I guess I misunderstand the term.

As to your second and and third point, the second has already been addressed and the third is a red herring.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 15, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> the third is a red herring.



And there it is, straight from the horses mouth. Matthew 7:23 is a red herring. How very interesting. 

Salvation without fear or guilt, omnipotent immortality via a bulletproof God complex. 

Good luck with that.


----------



## RH Clark (Jun 15, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Really??  I stand appalled!



Very simple question. Do you think you are saved because you do not sin, or possibly because you sin less? Why are you judging your salvation on what you do?

If you don't judge your salvation based on your own actions, then why do you want to judge another's salvation based on their actions?


That's the big question.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 15, 2016)

Havana Dude said:


> I'm curious, had this been an airplane crash with 50 souls on board, no survivors, would they all go to he11 ? While I do not agree with homosexuality, the sins of those on that plane are no worse than those of the homosexual. You could argue that they continually engage in sinful behaviour ( unrepented sin), but don't we also?



Apples and oranges

You are comparing unrepentant sinners to redeamed sinners who WHILE WE STILL SIN, SHOULD NOT ACTIVELY PURSUE IT.  QUIET THE CONTRARY, A REDEEMED SINNER SHOULD NOT ONLY AVOID SIN BUT REPENT AND SEEK FORGIVENESS WHEN COMVICTED OF IT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO DWELLS WITHIN EACH SAVED PERSON


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 15, 2016)

Havana Dude said:


> Are you at all concerned about the hundreds and thousands  of people murdered in Chicago ( just one city) every year? These folks were likely engaged in sinful behaviour before they succumbed to their injury. Just curious at to why you pick the gay bar incident to discuss this. Also, what do you expect people to do with this information? You want everyone to feel guilty for not trying to lead these specific people to Christ? I'm sorry, but these are matters for God to tend to, not me. It is physically impossible to be a light to EVERYONE, so we are ALL GUILTY. Before you light into me, just remember, we've been pushing God to the back burner for a very long time. ALL OF US. Every second you or I sit on this computer arguing this scenario is time wasted. Virtually everything we do is time wasted as far as trying to lead others to Christ. We have pulled so far away, that most of relegate an hour or 2 on Sunday mornings to him, and even then, can't wait to get out so we can eat lunch. But we have no problem sitting 5-6 hours at a NASCAR race, or a football game. Most folks don't even bother going to church anymore because a MAN hurt their little feelings, and so now they don't want to associate with an entire body of people. Just an excuse if you ask me.
> 
> Going back to your original post. I just don't see how you can make such a blanket statement about those 49/50 people going to he11. How could you possibly know that ? Maybe 1 of those killed was in their witnessing to the lost souls. And I'm not one saying you are passing judgement. I'm simply saying you are making huge assumptions.



Yes I am just as concerned about anyone who dies lost.  That was the entire point of the OP.  It's a tragedy anytime any, just one, are lost.  And while Gem is correct when he states God is just in sending ANY lost to He11, because it's a justice mandated by their choices while ALIVE.  Christ came so that all could be saved an none perish and that is something that each of us can have a bearing on, are called to and even mandated to have a bearing on, but it seems to me that we Christians have the attitude that once we are pulled from the fire we could care less about those still inside and we should be ashamed.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 15, 2016)

NCHillbilly said:


> Throughout our world, there are many, many differing views of sin, morality, salvation, afterlife; and the will, identity, and instructions of God. Yours is one of them.



You are correct, but Truth my friend, is exclusive.  There's a lot of school buses at the schoolhouse but only one takes you home.  Make sure to out get on the right one.  Jesus said I am the Way, the TRUTH and the .....  No other person has ever made that claim.  Why?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 15, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> And there it is, straight from the horses mouth. Matthew 7:23 is a red herring. How very interesting.
> 
> Salvation without fear or guilt, omnipotent immortality via a bulletproof God complex.
> 
> Good luck with that.


----------



## welderguy (Jun 15, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yes I am just as concerned about anyone who dies lost.  That was the entire point of the OP.  It's a tragedy anytime any, just one, are lost.  And while Gem is correct when he states God is just in sending ANY lost to He11, because it's a justice mandated by their choices while ALIVE.  Christ came so that all could be saved an none perish and that is something that each of us can have a bearing on, are called to and even mandated to have a bearing on, but it seems to me that we Christians have the attitude that once we are pulled from the fire we could care less about those still inside and we should be ashamed.





So...now salvation is in man's hands??

Then we're all doomed.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 15, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Very simple question. Do you think you are saved because you do not sin, or possibly because you sin less? Why are you judging your salvation on what you do?
> 
> If you don't judge your salvation based on your own actions, then why do you want to judge another's salvation based on their actions?
> 
> ...



Very simple answer.  I am save by the atonement of Christ becoming a propitiation for me and my sins. 

To your question.  I don't judge another's salvation based on their actions.  I look at their actions and conclude that they are PROBABLY not saved because their actions are not the actions someone saved would engage in.  I act, think and conduct myself almost totally opposite of that of when I was unsaved.  I think if you are saved there should be evidence of it.  Do you agree and if you do then tell me how you can't see sin and fail to call it sin. And if you do see sin and recognize it as sin, how do you NOT conclude that those engaging it are most likely not saved?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> So...now salvation is in man's hands??
> 
> Then we're all doomed.



Did I say that?


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jun 15, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You are correct, but Truth my friend, is exclusive.  There's a lot of school buses at the schoolhouse but only one takes you home.  Make sure to out get on the right one.  Jesus said I am the Way, the TRUTH and the .....  No other person has ever made that claim.  Why?



And, if you had been born in a culturally different part of the world or another period in time, you would believe that Buddha or Vishnu or Allah or Anubis or Quetzacoatl was the only true way to heaven, and that the Christians were wrong and deceived in their beliefs. And you would believe this just as strongly as you believe what you believe now.


----------



## RH Clark (Jun 15, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Very simple answer.  I am save by the atonement of Christ becoming a propitiation for me and my sins.
> 
> To your question.  I don't judge another's salvation based on their actions.  I look at their actions and conclude that they are PROBABLY not saved because their actions are not the actions someone saved would engage in.  I act, think and conduct myself almost totally opposite of that of when I was unsaved.  I think if you are saved there should be evidence of it.  Do you agree and if you do then tell me how you can't see sin and fail to call it sin. And if you do see sin and recognize it as sin, how do you NOT conclude that those engaging it are most likely not saved?



I actually agree with you to a large extent. I just don't think that we should ever look at a deceased person and pass judgment. I think it's very important that we always recognize that our sin is no less egregious than any other's. When we start doing that, we are loosing sight of our savior and placing our confidence in ourselves. To me that is the only sin that matters.


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## Havana Dude (Jun 15, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Apples and oranges
> 
> You are comparing unrepentant sinners to redeamed sinners who WHILE WE STILL SIN, SHOULD NOT ACTIVELY PURSUE IT.  QUIET THE CONTRARY, A REDEEMED SINNER SHOULD NOT ONLY AVOID SIN BUT REPENT AND SEEK FORGIVENESS WHEN COMVICTED OF IT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO DWELLS WITHIN EACH SAVED PERSON


You are still assuming none of those people ever repented and were saved.


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## welderguy (Jun 15, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Did I say that?



Yes,when you said this in post 55:

(QUOTE-SemperFiDawg)"that is something that each of us can have a bearing on, are called to and even mandated to have a bearing on,"


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## gemcgrew (Jun 15, 2016)

NCHillbilly said:


> And, if you had been born in a culturally different part of the world or another period in time, you would believe that Buddha or Vishnu or Allah or Anubis or Quetzacoatl was the only true way to heaven, and that the Christians were wrong and deceived in their beliefs. And you would believe this just as strongly as you believe what you believe now.


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## Israel (Jun 15, 2016)

I don't know much about the ones that perished in the fall of the tower at Siloam. But I do know a little about a one who's mostly ready to decide about these kinds of things.
And I am reminded of what Jesus says to him.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 15, 2016)

NCHillbilly said:


> And, if you had been born in a culturally different part of the world or another period in time, you would believe that Buddha or Vishnu or Allah or Anubis or Quetzacoatl was the only true way to heaven, and that the Christians were wrong and deceived in their beliefs. And you would believe this just as strongly as you believe what you believe now.



That's a supposition only.  No way to know if that is true or not.  Even if true it doesn't change the fact that truth is indeed exclusive and  there is only one path to eternal life and that is thru the atoning work of Christ.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 15, 2016)

Havana Dude said:


> You are still assuming none of those people ever repented and were saved.



Yes I am assuming it based on their actions.  You are correct.  

Tell me this.  When you stand before God would you rather have to answer for the actions you took because you assumed people were lost and you tried to warn them (as per the Great Commission) or your inaction because you assumed they were saved and therefore you did nothing?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Yes,when you said this in post 55:
> 
> (QUOTE-SemperFiDawg)"that is something that each of us can have a bearing on, are called to and even mandated to have a bearing on,"



I was referring to the Great Commission, evangelization, planting the seed, etc.  In no way was I suggesting that we can work our way into Heaven.


----------



## welderguy (Jun 15, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I was referring to the Great Commission, evangelization, planting the seed, etc.  In no way was I suggesting that we can work our way into Heaven.



OK. I apologize.

But,to clear things up for me,regarding the OP,what should we do in the future to effect a different outcome for the victims and even for the killer...and ultimately for the glory of God?

...or can there be a different outcome?...since we both agree we can't save them from he11.

serious question.I'm not being facetious.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 15, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I actually agree with you to a large extent. I just don't think that we should ever look at a deceased person and pass judgment. I think it's very important that we always recognize that our sin is no less egregious than any other's. When we start doing that, we are loosing sight of our savior and placing our confidence in ourselves. To me that is the only sin that matters.



Look,  all I am saying in the OP is that we seem to be missing the big picture.  The big picture being that in all probability most, if not all of these souls wound up in He11 and there seems to be absolutely no concern about that what so ever.  There is more offense centered on the fact that I automatically assumed they were going there, than the possibility that they actually went there, which I find both perverted and disturbing from a predominantly "Christian" community.  

 In essence it appears that we don't actually care if you spend eternity in He11 as long as no one dares suggest it's a possibility.  Like I said, a bit perverted of a stance for ones who identify as Christ-like.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> OK. I apologize.
> 
> But,to clear things up for me,regarding the OP,what should we do in the future to effect a different outcome for the victims and even for the killer...and ultimately for the glory of God?
> 
> ...



I think he's been asked that by several. We want to know what the tragedy is. Lost people die and go to He11. 
What does he want God to differently? What does he expect us to do differently or what feelings is he expecting us to feel?

I feel the tragedy that they died an early physical death and sympathy for their loved ones. I feel the way they died was a tragedy. 
I feel this even for Christians when they die a physical death unless they had been suffering from pain. Even then their physical death is emotional. 

I don't feel it is a tragedy that lost souls go to he11 or eternal death.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> OK. I apologize.
> 
> But,to clear things up for me,regarding the OP,what should we do in the future to effect a different outcome for the victims and even for the killer...and ultimately for the glory of God?
> 
> ...



The only thing we can do is what we were told to do, and that is spread the Gospel, be loving but truthful with the lost, and pray.  Today, as this thread has vividly demonstrated, none of those are popular options even among those who profess the faith, but that doesn't absolve us from our duty.  There is no hope for this world outside of Jesus Christ, and he is the only hope for a different outcome.  But it happens one soul at a time, and it cant happen without us being truthful about sin and it's effect.  You can't convince a person to seek treatment unless he is first convinced he is sick, and that is the effect of not calling sin, sin.  If I'm not convinced I'm a sinner, then I see no need for a savior.


----------



## welderguy (Jun 15, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The only thing we can do is what we were told to do, and that is spread the Gospel, be loving but truthful with the lost, and pray.  Today, as this thread has vividly demonstrated, none of those are popular options even among those who profess the faith, but that doesn't absolve us from our duty.  There is no hope for this world outside of Jesus Christ, and he is the only hope for a different outcome.  But it happens one soul at a time, and it cant happen without us being truthful about sin and it's effect.  You can't convince a person to seek treatment unless he is first convinced he is sick, and that is the effect of not calling sin, sin.  If I'm not convinced I'm a sinner, then I see no need for a savior.



Good exortation.
Maybe we need to examine Eph.5:1-14 a lot closer.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 15, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think he's been asked that by several. We want to know what the tragedy is. Lost people die and go to He11.
> What does he want God to differently? What does he expect us to do differently or what feelings is he expecting us to feel?
> 
> I feel the tragedy that they died an early physical death and sympathy for their loved ones. I feel the way they died was a tragedy.
> ...



Is it not the ultimate tragedy that with some love, compassion and Truth that some who went He11 could have been possibly been saved from that fate.  You have compassion for everything, but the most important. 

 You don't feel it's a tragedy that lost souls go the He11.  I feel it's a tragedy there are lost souls *to go to He11 *ostensibly because we as Christians have become the Laodicean Church.  We are apathetic, indolent, wealthy, safe, and comfortable.   We accept sin as normal, because after all, everybody else does.   We go thru our lives without a care in the world about our brothers and sisters eternal destination.  In most cases unless we tell someone, no one would ever even guess that we identify as a Christian.  Why?  Because our actions don't single us out as any different,  That is why people like NCHillbilly can say he can't tell one bit of difference,  and he's 100% truthful.   For the most part I cant either,  but I will say this.  It's not the fault of the doctrine, but the people who identify with it, but don't follow it.  The problem with The Church is the Church.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jun 16, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Is it not the ultimate tragedy that with some love, compassion and Truth that some who went He11 could have been possibly been saved from that fate.  You have compassion for everything, but the most important.
> 
> You don't feel it's a tragedy that lost souls go the He11.  I feel it's a tragedy there are lost souls *to go to He11 *ostensibly because we as Christians have become the Laodicean Church.  We are apathetic, indolent, wealthy, safe, and comfortable.   We accept sin as normal, because after all, everybody else does.   We go thru our lives without a care in the world about our brothers and sisters eternal destination.  In most cases unless we tell someone, no one would ever even guess that we identify as a Christian.  Why?  Because our actions don't single us out as any different,  That is why people like NCHillbilly can say he can't tell one bit of difference,  and he's 100% truthful.   For the most part I cant either,  but I will say this.  It's not the fault of the doctrine, but the people who identify with it, but don't follow it.  The problem with The Church is the Church.


Why are you taking this up with man? Take it up with God! The Bible addresses all of your statements and it addresses them with precision and accuracy.

You are shaken. Your worldview is shaken.

Examine your worldview.


----------



## welderguy (Jun 16, 2016)

Semperfidawg,
I have to say I agree with Gem.
You are right to be on your soapbox about calling sin a sin and admonishing us to live a more holy life for God(not appearance).I will jump up on that soapbox with you.
BUT,here's where you are mixed up.When you have the idea that man can do ANYTHING of himself to change his,or anyone elses,eternal standing with God,you then have a salvation that's based on some merit of man.

There's simply ZERO merit of man.Only grace from God.And we should not question that grace.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 16, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> And there it is, straight from the horses mouth. Matthew 7:23 is a red herring. How very interesting.
> 
> Salvation without fear or guilt, omnipotent immortality via a bulletproof God complex.
> 
> Good luck with that.



MC  I have no idea what you are taking about.  I honestly think maybe you misunderstood something somewhere.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 16, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> MC  I have no idea what you are taking about.  I honestly think maybe you misunderstood something somewhere.



I'm pretty sure I didn't. 

A man, lacking in sufficient mental stability to morally know right from wrong, without personally knowing any of these peoples convictions decided to take their physical life from them and condemn their bodies to a physical death. 

Now another man, not knowing a single one of them personally or any of their convictions has done likewise by condemning their spiritual beings / souls to an eternal death. 

Quite a conundrum when the two men are compared.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 16, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Semperfidawg,
> I have to say I agree with Gem.
> You are right to be on your soapbox about calling sin a sin and admonishing us to live a more holy life for God(not appearance).I will jump up on that soapbox with you.
> BUT,here's where you are mixed up.When you have the idea that man can do ANYTHING of himself to change his,or anyone elses,eternal standing with God,you then have a salvation that's based on some merit of man.
> ...



Hope this addressed both of your questions.  If our actions have no bearing on the fate of others why the great commission?    Why didn't Jesus just say "Ya'll save yourselves and don't worry about the rest. "?  The fact is he didn't.  He commanded us to spread the good news, love our neighbors, etc.  Why?  So that none should be lost,so it's pretty non sensical to me to think that my actions or inactions have no effect on my neighbor's destiny.  It's counter intuitive.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 16, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I'm pretty sure I didn't.
> 
> A man, lacking in sufficient mental stability to morally know right from wrong, without personally knowing any of these peoples convictions decided to take their physical life from them and condemn their bodies to a physical death.
> 
> ...




As to your first statement.  Now who's claiming omniscience?

And yes you have misunderstood my statements thus far because I haven't condemned anyone.  That takes a power I don't possess.  I simply drew a conclusion based on fact.  The two are totally different and I've made it abundantly clear ad nausea as to my point.  

If it offends you that I concluded that in all probability those actively engaging in and pursuing debauchery aren't saved and therefore have a fate outside of Gods presence, I won't apologize for that.  It's Biblical.

PS. It's not their "physical life" that should be our primary concern.  That's the whole point...,which you are still missing.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 16, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Why are you taking this up with man? Take it up with God! The Bible addresses all of your statements and it addresses them with precision and accuracy.
> 
> You are shaken. Your worldview is shaken.
> 
> Examine your worldview.



Trust me Brother.  You may have misunderstood me, but I'm solid on The Rock.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 16, 2016)

The father of the shooter says his son is a victim of ISIS. That's a question I've often thought about.
Say a person is born in a Pagan Hindu country. He is a victim of his own father's religion.
How does God view this person's ignorance or that of the shooter in Orlando?

Related to the OP, how can I lead the homosexual or Hindu to salvation? They are both born that way. We are all born that way.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 16, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> As to your first statement.  Now who's claiming omniscience?
> 
> And yes you have misunderstood my statements thus far because *I haven't condemned anyone*.  That takes a power I don't possess.  *I simply drew a conclusion* based on fact.  The two are totally different and I've made it abundantly clear ad nausea as to my point.
> 
> ...



Standing before you are endless acres of trees. What do you see? 

I rest my case.


----------



## welderguy (Jun 16, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Hope this addressed both of your questions.  If our actions have no bearing on the fate of others why the great commission?    Why didn't Jesus just say "Ya'll save yourselves and don't worry about the rest. "?  The fact is he didn't.  He commanded us to spread the good news, love our neighbors, etc.  Why?  So that none should be lost,so it's pretty non sensical to me to think that my actions or inactions have no effect on my neighbor's destiny.  It's counter intuitive.



Purpose of the great commission:
To spread the good news for the glory of God to every kindred,tongue,and nation.
Who is it good news to?
Those that have ears to hear(spiritual ears).
All the others will reject it.(they are blinded to it)

We (Christians) are to be light and salt to the world.
Light makes manifest(condemns) the darkness,just by being present.
Salt preserves.

This is our mission.Not to save,but to make manifest.
God does the saving(opening of the ears and eyes)


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 16, 2016)

Paul beat y'all to it, if you think you are personally charged to preach the Gospel to the "world".
Colossians 1:23 — 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Also Romans 10:18.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 16, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Purpose of the great commission:
> To spread the good news for the glory of God to every kindred,tongue,and nation.
> Who is it good news to?
> Those that have ears to hear(spiritual ears).
> ...



I'm not sure where you and Gem disagree with me.  I agree with everything you stated.  My point is again,  if you are not spreading the gospel, you aren't being a light to anyone.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jun 16, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Trust me Brother.  You may have misunderstood me, but I'm solid on The Rock.


SF, I thank you for this thread.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jun 16, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm not sure where you and Gem disagree with me.  I agree with everything you stated.  My point is again,  if you are not spreading the gospel, you aren't being a light to anyone.


I am not necessarily disagreeing with you in regard to the relationship that exist between created objects. Just as you originally stated "it seems to me that we are missing the most important point", I think that we still are.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 16, 2016)

Ezek 18:23-28
23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die.
27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life.
28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die.


----------



## welderguy (Jun 16, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm not sure where you and Gem disagree with me.  I agree with everything you stated.  My point is again,  if you are not spreading the gospel, you aren't being a light to anyone.



The curveball (for me) that you keep throwing is when you say "we could have changed the fate of those who were killed".
Apparently I'm misunderstanding your meaning behind this.


----------



## EverGreen1231 (Jun 16, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Standing before you are endless acres of trees. What do you see?
> 
> I rest my case.



Saved people act like they are. The problem is you and I cannot determine if these actions are genuine. Some saved people don't act like they are, The Lord will return to them their reward for that in this life. There's no way we can definitively know if someone who is actively seeking and engaged in sin is born again; there are, after all, two laws in our members, just as The Lord said. We can choose to follow that which is carnal and sins, or that which is born of God and cannot sin. If someone lives in willful sin, though I cannot say with surety, I can deduce they may not have within them that which is born of God. It is biblical to say "show me they faith by thy works," and "if you love me, keep my commandments." We also know,_ "Beloved, love one another. For love is of God, and everyone that loves is born of God, and knoweth God; but he that loveth not, knoweth not God for God is Love."_ Is it not reasonable to assume that if someone appears, to us, not to love, that the love of The Lord doesn't dwell within them; do we simply, in that case, dismiss a possibly reachable soul and say "I must not judge?" God forbid. If I think you may not know The Lord, I'm going to tell you about Him.

While they are alive, they are whosoever will; but after the separation, they are the whosoever won't, and always were.

Thankfully, The Lord still knows; and none of this lay dependant on my understanding, but with, and in, His truth.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 16, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> SF, I thank you for this thread.




I'm not sure I am.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 16, 2016)

welderguy said:


> The curveball (for me) that you keep throwing is when you say "we could have changed the fate of those who were killed".
> Apparently I'm misunderstanding your meaning behind this.



I'm sure some of those who died never heard the Gospel.  It's at least a very good possibility.  What if they had and due to hearing it been convicted of their sin by the HS, turned, repented and were saved.  That's what I mean by our ability to make a difference....or at least one example.  

But today we don't share the gospel and we are at the very least complacent to sin. If that were different some of them and everyone else who dies lost may have been saved thru hearing the Gospel.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jun 16, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm sure some of those who died never heard the Gospel.  It's at least a very good possibility.  What if they had and due to hearing it been convicted of their sin by the HS, turned, repented and were saved.  That's what I mean by our ability to make a difference....or at least one example.
> 
> But today we don't share the gospel and we are at the very least complacent to sin. If that were different some of them and everyone else who dies lost may have been saved thru hearing the Gospel.



I find it hard to believe that the gospel is not shared or preached today. ( People would have to be living under a rock.) All the gay people I know in my community heard the gospel. It is a community of about 8-9 thousand souls.


----------



## RH Clark (Jun 16, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm sure some of those who died never heard the Gospel.  It's at least a very good possibility.  What if they had and due to hearing it been convicted of their sin by the HS, turned, repented and were saved.  That's what I mean by our ability to make a difference....or at least one example.
> 
> But today we don't share the gospel and we are at the very least complacent to sin. If that were different some of them and everyone else who dies lost may have been saved thru hearing the Gospel.




I don't think either Welderguy, nor Gemcgrew believe that. I think they both believe that God just chooses who he wants to be saved and who he doesn't.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> I don't think either Welderguy, nor Gemcgrew believe that. I think they both believe that God just chooses who he wants to be saved and who he doesn't.



I've heard of that belief although can't square it with my understanding of scripture nor what I observe. I guess I would as "Well what's the point of the Great Commission then?"


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 16, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> I find it hard to believe that the gospel is not shared or preached today. ( People would have to be living under a rock.) All the gay people I know in my community heard the gospel. It is a community of about 8-9 thousand souls.



We have people who have went to my church all their life and still have some notion that they can work their way to heaven, which is NOT a Baptist doctrine, so I doubt very many in the secular world understand the basics.  Just my opinion.  I would say that maybe hearing and understanding are not synonomous.


----------



## RH Clark (Jun 16, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I've heard of that belief although can't square it with my understanding of scripture nor what I observe. I guess I would as "Well what's the point of the Great Commission then?"



I've argued with them both until I'm just tired of arguing. I only mentioned it because it is the crux of their disagreement with you. If you don't understand that belief of theirs you don't understand their position or why they disagree with you.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jun 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I've argued with them both until I'm just tired of arguing. I only mentioned it because it is the crux of their disagreement with you. If you don't understand that belief of theirs you don't understand their position or why they disagree with you.



I knew from your first words on this forum that you were a smart dude. This confirms it.


----------



## welderguy (Jun 16, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm sure some of those who died never heard the Gospel.  It's at least a very good possibility.  What if they had and due to hearing it been convicted of their sin by the HS, turned, repented and were saved.  That's what I mean by our ability to make a difference....or at least one example.
> 
> But today we don't share the gospel and we are at the very least complacent to sin. If that were different some of them and everyone else who dies lost may have been saved thru hearing the Gospel.



Oh ok.now I see the problem.You believe a person must hear the gospel with their physical ears to be able to be saved eternally.

I believe the Holy Spirit speaks the gospel at regeneration without involving the physical ears.

Do you see why Im not wringing my hands worrying about the souls of the murdered victims?If any of them were God's children,I assure you they knew their redeemer before they passed...even if they were born with no ears at all,God can reach them.He promised.

"All that the Father giveth me SHALL come to Me,and he that cometh to Me,I will in no wise cast out."


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 16, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Oh ok.now I see the problem.You believe a person must hear the gospel with their physical ears to be able to be saved eternally.
> 
> I believe the Holy Spirit speaks the gospel at regeneration without involving the physical ears.
> 
> ...



Finally a way for the Hindu blinded by his indoctrination into the wrong religion! Actually the whole Gentile world before the internet, television, radio, and motor boats too.
I can sleep better now knowing their souls didn't burn in He!!. The ones awakened by the Holy Spirit that is.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 16, 2016)

I'm pretty sure most of the gays in predominantly Christian nations have heard about Jesus and his path to salvation.
They've been told their destiny lies in He11 if they don't repent. 

Now they either have to find a way to work around that to believe they are saved or look for another religion or no religion. Many of them are pretty smart and have had to do a lot of soul searching.

Maybe they know God. Maybe they have exchanged the truth for a lie.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 17, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Oh ok.now I see the problem.You believe a person must hear the gospel with their physical ears to be able to be saved eternally.
> 
> I believe the Holy Spirit speaks the gospel at regeneration without involving the physical ears.
> 
> ...




How do you square that with Romans 10:14

But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?

Or the Great Commission for that matter.  

I have to be honest.  I find that view very dangerous.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 17, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Oh ok.now I see the problem.You believe a person must hear the gospel with their physical ears to be able to be saved eternally.
> 
> I believe the Holy Spirit speaks the gospel at regeneration without involving the physical ears.
> 
> ...



So you do not witness to those outside of the cocoon of our church?


----------



## welderguy (Jun 17, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> How do you square that with Romans 10:14
> 
> But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?
> 
> ...



Paul establishes first what the usual evidence of someone who's been changed looks like.They confess with their mouth and tell what great things the Lord has done for them.
But,sometimes people are changed who haven't heard about Him through natural hearing.They need the good news told to them about what has already happened in their heart(Ethiopian Eunich).
In vs.17 Paul emphatically states faith comes by hearing,but in vs.18 makes it clear that faith doesn't come by the natural hearing because the gospel had already been preached throughout ALL the world.Yet,his fellow countrymen of Israel were still blind to faith.

That's because faith comes by hearing the Word through spiritual ears.


----------



## welderguy (Jun 17, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> So you do not witness to those outside of the cocoon of our church?



Depends on how you define witnessing.
If you mean force-feeding them the scriptures thinking I can get them saved,then no.

But,if you mean using every open door to tell the greatness of God,YES.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 17, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Depends on how you define witnessing.
> If you mean force-feeding them the scriptures thinking I can get them saved,then no.
> 
> But,if you mean using every open door to tell the greatness of God,YES.



Typically I mean "Witnessing" by, you can tell a man by how he lives his life, his character, how he cares for and interacts with others. All others, of every walk of life, not just those like him. That is witnessing. 

Standing on a street corner screaming at people and bludgeoning them with a bible is not witnessing. It is heretical division of the utmost destructive kind that drives more away from Christianity than ever draws them to it. 

If we are to be The light, then we must be one which the moths feel secure in being drawn to. Even a fool knows to step out of the way of the blinding spot light and deafening offensive noise of a train approaching. 

There are many times when I wish there were two Religious / Spiritual Discussion Forums. One that was private for self professed theologian wanna be's, and one that was public, as this is, with the understanding that it is capable of being viewed by all, including the unchurched, the lost, the curious, those that have never picked up a bible. A place for simple human interaction to reflect the example Jesus set for us. 

A bowl of milk. 

Let those needing only solid food go to the private theological discussions not seen by all. 

Why? Because the theological debates on an open forum are nothing more than fodder for the enemy, and confusion for the lost. There is no need to prove you are a phylosophical scribe to all of the world (keyboard commando Bible style) to save souls, but you are being watched by members and non-members alike. 

What is your rhetoric telling them? Is it intriguing? Does it give them pause to reflect on their life and make them want to learn more? or is it boring, stoic, repetitive, exclusive and cliquish? Jesus spoke in plain words, on a very ground level basis to all he met. He even simplified it for the Pharisees, though they never got it, and were infuriated that such a plain speaking man could reduce the Holy Scriptures to such simplicity. 

Are the lost, seeking, unexposed to God in today's society seeing plain speaking compassion in this venue? or are they seeing a bunch of nanny pharisees constantly in disagreement over varying doctrines. 

There are more than just physical ways to "Go out into the world and spread the Good News". This technology reaches to nearly every corner of the globe, yet some here act as if only those in their little microcosm can see their narrowly pointed diatribes. 

The world is watching, guard your words and behavior, lest you condemn or run someone off before they ever get the chance to hear the true spoken word.


----------



## welderguy (Jun 17, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Typically I mean "Witnessing" by, you can tell a man by how he lives his life, his character, how he cares for and interacts with others. All others, of every walk of life, not just those like him. That is witnessing.
> 
> Standing on a street corner screaming at people and bludgeoning them with a bible is not witnessing. It is heretical division of the utmost destructive kind that drives more away from Christianity than ever draws them to it.
> 
> ...



Bless you brother.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jun 18, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Typically I mean "Witnessing" by, you can tell a man by how he lives his life, his character, how he cares for and interacts with others. All others, of every walk of life, not just those like him. That is witnessing.
> 
> Standing on a street corner screaming at people and bludgeoning them with a bible is not witnessing. It is heretical division of the utmost destructive kind that drives more away from Christianity than ever draws them to it.
> 
> ...


Complete and utter nonsense.


----------



## Israel (Jun 18, 2016)

Are we not all...witnesses of something? How can we escape witnessing to that which we witness? We all demonstratively show, without contradiction, that upon which our eyes are fixed.
Do some yet fear the impeach-ability of man...or rest secure in the unimpeach-ability of God? And His truth?

I love the point in the courtroom drama when the erstwhile ne'er do well is confronted in cross examination by his total lack of character and says "yes, I can't deny I am all those wretched things you say of me, and even more (if you only knew), nevertheless, that does not change the fact that I saw that man do it! 


Who has believed our report, and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed...?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 22, 2016)

Israel said:


> Are we not all...witnesses of something? How can we escape witnessing to that which we witness? We all demonstratively show, without contradiction, that upon which our eyes are fixed.
> Do some yet fear the impeach-ability of man...or rest secure in the unimpeach-ability of God? And His truth?
> 
> I love the point in the courtroom drama when the erstwhile ne'er do well is confronted in cross examination by his total lack of character and says "yes, I can't deny I am all those wretched things you say of me, and even more (if you only knew), nevertheless, that does not change the fact that I saw that man do it!
> ...


We are all broken, and those in possession of salvation are a wondrous heavenly work of mosaic art that God has created from those broken pieces. The more broken, the more complex the art. Who are we to judge another ones work of art, for it's value is not in the eye of the viewer, but in the eye of the creator.


----------



## Israel (Jun 22, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> We are all broken, and those in possession of salvation are a wondrous heavenly work of mosaic art that God has created from those broken pieces. The more broken, the more complex the art. Who are we to judge another ones work of art, for it's value is not in the eye of the viewer, but in the eye of the creator.


yep.
To his own master he stands or falls.


----------



## swampstalker24 (Jun 23, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> I agree. I see the OP as a theological exercise. In this exercise, He11 is a given and the 50 souls are there.
> 
> Tragedy, by definition, is a bad event. That they are there is the result of God's judgement. Everything that God does is good, right, holy and just. So it is good that they are there.
> 
> ...



Would you say the same thing about the 6 million jews who went to heII as a result of the holocaust?


----------



## Israel (Jun 23, 2016)

swampstalker24 said:


> Would you say the same thing about the 6 million jews who went to heII as a result of the holocaust?


I don't think you understand at all what was said.


----------



## Israel (Jun 24, 2016)

The preaching of the gospel, as I have heard from some, becomes moot in the face of election.
But as has been said numerous times, the preaching of the gospel, and that command, is a gift to the preacher first and always. It is not ever anything less than that. It might be more, depending, but it can never be less. As is every commandment of Christ, to eternal life.


Men may come to a curious place. Curious in all. Peter was there. Learned to stay there. "Nevertheless, at your word..."


----------



## gemcgrew (Jun 24, 2016)

swampstalker24 said:


> Would you say the same thing about the 6 million jews who went to heII as a result of the holocaust?


Of course. Even if you change it to 60 million little babies.


----------



## Havana Dude (Jun 24, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Of course. Even if you change it to 60 million little babies.



???


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 24, 2016)

And some wonder in denial why Christianity in the US is on the decline. Man what a splinter!


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jun 24, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> And some wonder in denial why Christianity in the US is on the decline. Man what a splinter!



Like. ^^

There's a main reason I haven't darkened a churchhouse door in a couple decades.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jun 24, 2016)

Havana Dude said:


> ???


Consider post 38 and 114. If "theological exercise" doesn't make my response clear to you, let me know.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 24, 2016)

Why must we, as Christians, test the Spirit of the Lord with our self righteous attitudes? Were not Ananias and Sapphira sufficient lessons for us?


----------



## Israel (Jun 24, 2016)

Man messes around with his hypotheticals, always searching for the manner in which he might present himself smelling like a rose.
Jesus...not so much.


----------



## RH Clark (Jun 24, 2016)

NCHillbilly said:


> Like. ^^
> 
> There's a main reason I haven't darkened a churchhouse door in a couple decades.



Don't give up. I too thought they were all the same until I attended a non denominational church. you don't have to attend church to love God or go to Heaven but there's a lot of benefit in going to the right church.


----------



## Israel (Jun 24, 2016)

Clear thinking.
Reading comprehension.
Communication. 
Are these things an offense?


----------



## gemcgrew (Jun 25, 2016)

Israel said:


> Clear thinking.
> Reading comprehension.
> Communication.
> Are these things an offense?


They are a gift.


----------



## Israel (Jun 25, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> They are a gift.



Well, that clears that up.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jun 25, 2016)

Israel said:


> Well, that clears that up.




That would be the Lord's doing.


----------



## Israel (Jun 26, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> That would be the Lord's doing.



If a man were set to that, appointed to know nothing but that, apprehended to know nothing...but that, maybe I think (but maybe...I don't) a mind that truly thinks clearly would _have to_ be made his. A gift, as said. Not that he was owed that, but there would have to be a grace to give it him. Otherwise...he might think he was thinking...but alas.

A man once said "For I determined to know nothing amongst you but Christ, and Him, crucified" He appears to have received a gift. (I think) I used to be jealous of him. 

It worked.
That "if by any means"...worked!

"But God forbid" he also said, "that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." 

"And this is the confidence that we have before Him: If we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we already possess what we have asked of Him.…"

I believe he was gifted with that glorious forbidding, for it is the will of God to see the glory there...where all other glorying, that is no glory at all, is forbidden.

And again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” Therefore stop boasting in men. All things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future. All of them belong to you,…

No wonder another brother once said to me a thing in regards to letting created things be placed according to their proper place.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 27, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Paul establishes first what the usual evidence of someone who's been changed looks like.They confess with their mouth and tell what great things the Lord has done for them.
> But,sometimes people are changed who haven't heard about Him through natural hearing.They need the good news told to them about what has already happened in their heart(Ethiopian Eunich).
> In vs.17 Paul emphatically states faith comes by hearing,but in vs.18 makes it clear that faith doesn't come by the natural hearing because the gospel had already been preached throughout ALL the world.Yet,his fellow countrymen of Israel were still blind to faith.
> 
> That's because faith comes by hearing the Word through spiritual ears.




Sorry.  I disagree with that interpretation completely


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 27, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Sorry.  I disagree with that interpretation completely



If we are to understand Paul we MUST understand the Chronology and Etymology of what was said. 

"hearing" being so critical to his teachings ONLY because 99% of society was illiterate, could not read any of the languages that scripture was written or being written in. 

Thus, "hearing" was the only option, and garners no special meaning in today's interpretation of the Word.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 27, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> So you do not witness to those outside of the cocoon of our church?



Why would he?  To do so he would have to first assume those "outside" the church were unsaved which is what you castigated me for.  See how that works?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 27, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Why would he?  To do so he would have to first assume those "outside" the church were unsaved which is what you castigated me for.  See how that works?


Please quote, reference said castigation.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 27, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> If we are to understand Paul we MUST understand the Chronology and Etymology of what was said.



Well so much for simple cognition I guess.  And timelessness of the Word too for that matter.  I guess all the primitive tribes in Africa and a Central America our church is sending missionaries and Bibles to really need a prerequisite course in Chronology and Etymology before they ever hear the Gospel or read the Bible lest they set their expectations for God too high or for Heavens sake take what they read at face value.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 27, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Well so much for simple cognition I guess.  And timelessness of the Word too for that matter.  I guess all the primitive tribes in Africa and a Central America our church is sending missionaries and Bibles to really need a prerequisite course in Chronology and Etymology before they ever hear the Gospel or read the Bible lest they set their expectations for God too high or for Heavens sake take what they read at face value.



I was actually in agreement with your disagreement with his statement. But don't let that plank get in your easily offended way.


----------



## swampstalker24 (Jun 27, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Typically I mean "Witnessing" by, you can tell a man by how he lives his life, his character, how he cares for and interacts with others. All others, of every walk of life, not just those like him. That is witnessing.
> 
> Standing on a street corner screaming at people and bludgeoning them with a bible is not witnessing. It is heretical division of the utmost destructive kind that drives more away from Christianity than ever draws them to it.
> 
> ...



I would have to agree with this 100%...

As an agnostic, I find nothing more off-putting and sometimes even comical, than to listen to some of these "nanny pharisees " you speak of argue about some of the most fundamental aspects of Christianity....  Folks who claim to speak with the guidance of god himself, who can't even seem to agree upon a single facet of the religion.  Not sure why I even spend so much time reading through this forum other than to reassure myself that modern religion is simply a remnant of early man's need to explain his being, control others, and justify his "imperfect" nature....  and a good laugh of course


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 27, 2016)

swampstalker24 said:


> I would have to agree with this 100%...
> 
> As an agnostic, I find nothing more off-putting and sometimes even comical, than to listen to some of these "nanny pharisees " you speak of argue about some of the most fundamental aspects of Christianity....  Folks who claim to speak with the guidance of god himself, who can't even seem to agree upon a single facet of the religion.  Not sure why I even spend so much time reading through this forum other than to reassure myself that modern religion is simply a remnant of early man's need to explain his being, control others, and justify his "imperfect" nature....


Do you feel the same about Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto and especially the modern day divisions within the beliefs of Islam? All have diversions and digressions from their origins. 

In fact, Atheism isn't even the pure belief of anti-theism it once was. Heck, they even have their own church now!!!!


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 27, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Please quote, reference said castigation.



I assume this was you



> WOW!!! First of all, the last report I read was only 49. So who is the 50th pre-condemned by this sanctimonious blasphemy?



along withh the reference too "bulletproof God complex" in post 52.  

I assume those were meant toward me since you were replying to and quoting me, or maybe we just have differing definitions of the term "castigation".


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 27, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I assume this was you
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Or perhaps some are more easily offended than others.  Of course, some levity must be granted to the truth stated in my avatar as well.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 27, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I was actually in agreement with your disagreement with his statement. But don't let that plank get in your easily offended way.



Sarcasm is hard to read into in a post unless specified....at least for me it is.


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## swampstalker24 (Jun 27, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Do you feel the same about Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto and especially the modern day divisions within the beliefs of Islam? All have diversions and digressions from their origins.
> 
> In fact, Atheism isn't even the pure belief of anti-theism it once was. Heck, they even have their own church now!!!!



I'm sure I would if I were to spend as much time reading and learning about them as I have with Christianity.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 27, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Sarcasm is hard to read into in a post unless specified....at least for me it is.



Sarcasm, specified, is no longer sarcasm. If we are so easily offended by the musings and observations of fellow Christians then how are we to relate to those un-churched or those that feel "failed" by the church and have left, or even more difficult, those that presently have no intention of ever hearing or believing the Word of God?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 27, 2016)

swampstalker24 said:


> I'm sure I would if I were to spend as much time reading and learning about them as I have with Christianity.



So what you are saying is that you are judging Christianity based on Christians posting about it,,,, not so much your personal knowledge of it.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 27, 2016)

Sometimes a picture is worth more than a thousand words. 

I'm sure someone will be offended by this as well.


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## swampstalker24 (Jun 27, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> So what you are saying is that you are judging Christianity based on Christians posting about it,,,, not so much your personal knowledge of it.



How does one gain personl knowledge about something?  Read and listen is the only ways i can think of...  Unless of course your talking about voicesin ones head guiding the way....

And the 16 years of being in a church pew every sunday informed me a little...


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 27, 2016)

swampstalker24 said:


> How does one gain personl knowledge about something?  Read and listen is the only ways i can think of...  Unless of course your talking about voicesin ones head guiding the way....
> 
> And the 16 years of being in a church pew every sunday informed me a little...



Well, I've heard voices from a pulpit that couldn't have been much more accurate than those in ones head, so that one's a toss up. 

Reading the Bible is definitely a plus, not reading blogs, soc med, etc. but there are some excellent sources out there, and behind a pulpit, one only needs to seek them out. 

Time in a pew counts for virtually nothing unless the message being spread is accurate in context and education.


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## tell sackett (Jun 28, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Sometimes a picture is worth more than a thousand words.
> 
> I'm sure someone will be offended by this as well.



That is certainly a part of the mosaic.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 28, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Sometimes a picture is worth more than a thousand words.
> 
> I'm sure someone will be offended by this as well.



It used to offend me when people took scripture out of context , but I've grown accustomed to it.  ( One another) does not include the wicked.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 28, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> It used to offend me when people took scripture out of context , but I've grown accustomed to it.  ( One another) does not include the wicked.


So the pagan idol worshipping Samaritan who helped the man who had been robbed doesn't apply. 

It always amuses me to witness Christians who attempt to Pigeon Hole Jesus and his teachings to fit their bigoted agenda.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2016)

And "all" doesn't mean all?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 28, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> So the pagan idol worshipping Samaritan who helped the man who had been robbed doesn't apply.
> 
> It always amuses me to witness Christians who attempt to Pigeon Hole Jesus and his teachings to fit their bigoted agenda.




What makes you think that Samaritan was a pagan?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2016)

Matthew 22:35-40

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

This person we are suppose to love, who is he?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2016)

The Good Pagan and The Good Samaritan;

http://stmaryvalleybloom.org/homily-15sunday-c.html


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 28, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> What makes you think that Samaritan was a pagan?



The Bible is covered with the evidence. The stunning part is, because this man did good works and was used as an example by Christ, as were the thieves, beggars, prostitutes and murderers, that he was somehow not a Pagan, contrary to all historical perspective and evidence.

If for no other reason, looking at all personalities used in all parables as a lesson, there is no way he was the shining example of a Christian that fits into the narrow minded pigeon hole so many like to paint him into.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 28, 2016)

http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-samaritans.htm



> The Jews at the time of Christ viewed the Samaritans as idol worshipping apostates to be shunned who had intermarried with the Gentiles.



But then



> Jesus' viewed the Samaritans as apostates, just like the rest of Jews did. However, unlike his fellow Jews, Jesus did not shun them.



What's that? By His example he was not shunning the wicked nature / culture that was the Samaritans? 

So much for "Did I stutter"?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 28, 2016)

To love one another, is to show love of the brethren to the brethren. We are not to foolishly treat the wicked non believers as if they are of the brethren.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 28, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> To love one another, is to show love of the brethren to the brethren. We are not to foolishly treat the wicked non believers as if they are of the brethren.



Where do you get this stuff?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2016)

Hobbs, are you now leaning towards God only loves the Elect? I thought you believed Christ died for "all?" 
Have you changed your definition of "all?"

Who did Jesus love? Who are we suppose to love? Enemies even?

Who should we forgive?  Wow talk about love. Jesus' love fulfilled the Law. 

To read the New Testament and only get out of it that we are to only love other Christians is wrong.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2016)

Romans 13:9-11
9The commandments “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and any other commandments, are summed up in this one decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10Love does no wrong to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.  11And do this, understanding the occasion. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

Love fulfilling the law and preterism right there.


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## welderguy (Jun 28, 2016)

Gal.6:10
"As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith."


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 28, 2016)

I so despise this game of "scripture one up-man-ship" when Jesus made his commands and intent abundantly clear. 

Luke 6:27-36 ESV

“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. ...


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## hobbs27 (Jun 28, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Where do you get this stuff?



It's called scriptural context. Jesus said  in this case love one another...you expanded on what Jesus said to include all people. 
 He was speaking to believers, they were to love one another. That's the context.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 28, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, are you now leaning towards God only loves the Elect? I thought you believed Christ died for "all?"
> Have you changed your definition of "all?"
> 
> Who did Jesus love? Who are we suppose to love? Enemies even?
> ...




Jesus loved His elect, they were His Bride. He loves us as Children..and how could he love the wicked ? Wasn't their command, depart from me for I never knew you?

Yet, He so loves the world that He made it possible for whosoever will to be saved ..I mean we were awful sinners too, before we were washed.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 28, 2016)

There is nothing wrong with showing love to the wicked, we are told to show love. Christians should stand out from the rest of the world by showing love....but there is a difference in the love we share with the brethren and the love we show to the wicked..let us not be foolish .


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2016)

All through the Bible we've read about how God loved the world and through this love gave us Jesus. God loved Jesus and thus Jesus loved us.

Now we are suppose to somehow turn this around and understand this means only the Elect? That Jesus only loved and died for the Elect? 
We are to emulate Christ's love of us by only loving fellow Christians only? I don't think so.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2016)

Luke 6:32-37
32If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same.  34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full.35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.  37Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

I don't think God is offering us the same "power" to pick and choose that he does. We are to love all. It's easy to love only fellow Christians.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2016)

I'm going to have to agree with Miguel, people have missed the whole meaning of the New Testament. Weird.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 28, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> All through the Bible we've read about how God loved the world and through this love gave us Jesus. God loved Jesus and thus Jesus loved us.
> 
> Now we are suppose to somehow turn this around and understand this means only the Elect? That Jesus only loved and died for the Elect?
> We are to emulate Christ's love of us by only loving fellow Christians only? I don't think so.



There is no elect anymore and the end all is in Revelation 21&22 as the calling goes out to Whosoever will.

Up to the time of the cross, Jesus' ministry was for the lost sheep of Israel only...notice how Jesus treated this lady because she was a Gentile..not until she showed faith would He help her.

21 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”

23 But He answered her not a word.

And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”

24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”

26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”

27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”

28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.


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## welderguy (Jun 28, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> There is no elect anymore and the end all is in Revelation 21&22 as the calling goes out to Whosoever will.
> 
> Up to the time of the cross, Jesus' ministry was for the lost sheep of Israel only...notice how Jesus treated this lady because she was a Gentile..not until she showed faith would He help her.
> 
> ...



I disagree.
I am one of God's elect.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 28, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm going to have to agree with Miguel, people have missed the whole meaning of the New Testament. Weird.



Every single person who has lived since the crucifixion has failed to understand everything they have read or heard from God's Holy Word recorded for them after the crucifixion.

That's a really good example of why it is difficult to participate in this forum.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2016)

I agree that we don't understand everything, but "love" fulfilled the Law is something we should all understand.

We are commanded first to love God and 2nd to love our neighbor. We aren't given the choice about who we are to love. 
That is something we should all understand.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 28, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree that we don't understand everything, but "love" fulfilled the Law is something we should all understand.
> 
> We are commanded first to love God and 2nd to love our neighbor. We aren't given the choice about who we are to love.
> That is something we should all understand.




And if your neighbor is stealing your gas?
Pushing drugs on your kids?
Kills your dog?


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## welderguy (Jun 28, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> And if your neighbor is stealing your gas?
> Pushing drugs on your kids?
> Kills your dog?



Lovingly call the police and lovingly press charges and lovingly demand punitive damages.
It's lovingly for his own good.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 28, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Lovingly call the police and lovingly press charges and lovingly demand punitive damages.
> It's lovingly for his own good.



In that case..I'll just settle for giving him a good ole fashion beating ...lovingly of course ..


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## swampstalker24 (Jun 28, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> And if your neighbor is stealing your gas?
> Pushing drugs on your kids?
> Kills your dog?



I think post #161 pretty clearly answers those questions for you....


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## hobbs27 (Jun 28, 2016)

swampstalker24 said:


> I think post #161 pretty clearly answers those questions for you....



True. If I were stealing gas, pushing drugs, or killing my neighbors dogs. I would want him to give me an old fashioned beating too.


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## welderguy (Jun 28, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> In that case..I'll just settle for giving him a good ole fashion beating ...lovingly of course ..



Sometimes love is tough.But it's still love.
He may thank you later when he gets in the right Spirit.


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## swampstalker24 (Jun 28, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> True. If I were stealing gas, pushing drugs, or killing my neighbors dogs. I would want him to give me an old fashioned beating too.



Fair enough...


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## hobbs27 (Jun 28, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Sometimes love is tough.But it's still love.
> He may thank you later when he gets in the right Spirit.



If he's Calvinist he will understand I had nothing to do with it, it was all God's will.

On a side note* We should not be foolish about this. If we take turning the other cheek too literal, we cave in to the biggest argument for the 2nd A, and that is self defense is a God given right!


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## gemcgrew (Jun 28, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> If he's Calvinist he will understand I had nothing to do with it, it was all God's will.


They would most likely understand why you had something to do with it.

But yes, everything serves it's purpose according to God's will. And the will of man is not first consulted.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 29, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree that we don't understand everything, but "love" fulfilled the Law is something we should all understand.
> 
> We are commanded first to love God and 2nd to love our neighbor. We aren't given the choice about who we are to love.
> That is something we should all understand.



I will respond to this, instead of all of the other deflecting non-sense, by sharing a response to this topic (I share these discussions that take place here with a consortium of 5 pastors over 3 denominations for grounding purposes)

One of the Pastors I believe eloquently nailed it. 



> Love is not easy so it is often left untried. To love is to learn to let go - let go of me - let go of my 'right to be right' - let go of my standing - let go of my understanding - and to fall on my knees and experience the undeserved and unfailing love of God.
> 
> Once experienced, it must be shared...there is no choice in this - the touch of God cannot cease to transform the life it touches. May grace lead me forward always.
> 
> Judgmentalism and condemnation weary the soul because they are not of God and the soul is of God. Tough lessons. Learned in brokenness. Refined in desperation. Not many are willing to travel that path.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 29, 2016)

This is an excellent statement.

Would you please ask the author if I indicate misunderstanding of his intent with the following nuance:



> Love is not easy so it is often left untried. To love is to learn to let go - let go of me - let go of my 'right to be right' - let go of my standing - let go of my understanding - and to fall on my knees and experience the undeserved and unfailing love of God.
> 
> Once experienced, it must be shared...there is no choice in this - the touch of God cannot cease to transform the life it touches.  And that transformation will be used by God in His work of transforming others.  May grace lead me forward always.
> 
> Judgmentalism and condemnation weary the soul because they are not of God and the soul is of God. Tough lessons. Learned in brokenness. Refined in desperation. Not many are willing to travel that path.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 29, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> This is an excellent statement.
> 
> Would you please ask the author if I indicate misunderstanding of his intent with the following nuance:



You got it correct.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 29, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> You got it correct.



Are you the author?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 29, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Are you the author?



Nope. But I have weekly discussions at length with him and 4 others. The denominations covered by this group of clergy are uniquely diverse in their doctrine, but amazingly similar when put at a table for discussion. 

Anglican
Methodist
Baptist

The liturgical differences are obvious, but the desire of the spirit is the same as the "Word" unites all to a common goal. There are some truly amazing insights gleaned from these discussions, the most glaring of all is that for centuries, though Christians like to blame the world, have been their own worst enemy. Especially in the US.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 29, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Nope.



Only the author knows his intent.  If available, it's his intent that I requested.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 29, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Only the author knows his intent.  If available, it's his intent that I requested.


This is not the only social site I am on, and the only form of communication to which I have access to him. He confirmed your query. 

If you do not, cannot,  trust my answer when I give it to you then I can't help you. 

Good day.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 29, 2016)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> This is not the only social site I am on, and the only form of communication to which I have access to him. He confirmed your query.
> 
> If you do not, cannot,  trust my answer when I give it to you then I can't help you.
> 
> Good day.



Amazing.

4 internet communications in 1 min.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 29, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Amazing.
> 
> 4 internet communications in 1 min.



We are all online currently. I am sorry if the speed of modern day communications eludes you.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 29, 2016)

To me the greatest transformation from pagan to Christian is love. The actual act of my salvation comes in the form of love from God through Christ.

Now for me to transform would be for me to start loving my new God and neighbor as commanded.

I can't speak for that preacher or for anyone else other than wanting to show this new desire to love. Again, I'm not given a choice on who I am to share it with, who I'm to help, and whom I'm to feed. In doing so I'm helping Jesus. In doing so I'm feeding Jesus.

I'm not giving myself or the others salvation from death, just sharing love. I'll leave their salvation to God. I'll leave their judgment to God. 

My transformation I'll share with others in the form of love. Love fulfilled the Law;

Galatians 5:14
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Romans 13:8-10
8Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love, for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law. 9The commandments “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and any other commandments, are summed up in this one decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”  10Love does no wrong to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.

Not seeing this is the "True Tragedy."


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## hummerpoo (Jun 29, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Love fulfilled the Law;
> 
> Galatians 5:14
> For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
> ...



Look, I am fully aware that it is just a personal quirk of mine, but it really bothers me when you use the past tense "fulfilled".  Yes the past tense is correct, but it is incomplete and does not express the sense of the scripture, which is a verb of continuous action.  Love did, does, and will fulfill the law.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 29, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> To me the greatest transformation from pagan to Christian is love. The actual act of my salvation comes in the form of love from God through Christ.
> 
> Now for me to transform would be for me to start loving my new God and neighbor as commanded.
> 
> ...



1st I agree with your using ( fulfilled) to deny the law is fulfilled is to say the law stands.

2nd. Mustn't we define love? Is it love to treat the wicked as a brother, or is it love to introduce the wicked to the source of our love? The source being One that is not accepting of their wickedness .

 I see too many folks wanting to comfort lost folks in their wicked state, and comfort them on their trip to the second death, all in the name of love...but that can't truly be love can it?

If you truly love your neighbor, aren't you going to witness to them?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 29, 2016)

If salvation is of the Lord then so will be their transformation. That is between them and God. 

My commandment it to show compassion and help through the form of love. 

Since I can't offer them salvation, I'll offer them love. I have no way of knowing which of the bunch God will choose. That's not my concern or command.

If love fulfilled the Law, then all I can do is continue what the Lord started or fulfilled depending on how you want to look at it.

You keep dwelling on the Law. The Law was fulfilled by love. Either they are saved or they aren't. Either way that part isn't my command. My command is to love.

"If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?"


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 29, 2016)

Everyone is in a wicked state. None of us are righteous.

"and such were some of you, but you were washed."

There is only one difference and that is the washing. The washing is of the Lord. I can't wash the wicked as I'm as they are except from my washing. I'll leave that part up to God.

I can't judge them because I do the same things. I'm not any more righteous than they are other than by my washing.


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