# Exploring Options in Response to Pen Raised Birds on WMA Thread?Growing Upland Opportunities



## Beagle Stace (Apr 27, 2020)

The thread on pen released birds on WMA land has been very informative and it is neat to see the different opinions and perspectives. I have been a public land prowler in Ga. for quite some time for small game starting as a kid for mainly coon and squirrel hunting. Then as an adult for rabbit hunting with beagles and since 2007 as mainly a bird hunter. To say that small game and bird hunters are a minority is the known factor but we are all in this together despite the many obstacles and personal perspectives. It is well known that only a handful of WMA properties in the state have a true management plan and dedicated resources to further quail habitat and possible future hunting opportunities. I totally understand that only those few select properties have the potential due to the size, current habitat and already present quail numbers. The budget and resources are limited so only high potential areas can be focused on and I am fine with that. Most WMA properties are small and Fragmented . And even if management efforts were applied the properties could never handle the hunting pressure nor expectations from hunters.  Also many do not have the current habitat needed are surrounded by land that is void and privately owned. So focus on the select properties and keep quota hunts there.  I get it whole hearted and have wasted so much time and energy speaking to state personnel. So here is an option that maybe should be explored 

So here is an option that maybe could be explored? Establish a limited stocking program to be applied on those other non target WMA lands so hunters can reasonably expect to work their dogs on birds and also to encourage new hunters esp. youth to join our ranks. Yes I know some will hate this idea and fight hard against. I was once on that side. But this option could be supported financially by a bird hunting stamp to cover the costs to manage and provide the resources. It is currently done for the fish program by a trout stamp which has been in existence for quite some time. This trout stocking effort generates a lot of interest in fishing and also provides dollars in revenue. W hy cant this be extended to the bird hunting community? Several other states have similar opportunities for its sportsman. If the program can be supported like the trout program by a stamp why not explore to keep hunters active? 

Yes I know there are many preserves all over the  state that you can pay to play but a lot of hunters don't have the money to regularly do this activity. Providing stocking options on WMA lands with low numbers and no active bird management will not be detrimental but will encourage hunters to remain in the field and recruit new hunters. Okay the lid is off pandoras box now. Who would be interested in talking with the state personnel to explore and present this option? I know I would be glad to pay the additional fees .


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## coachdoug87 (Apr 27, 2020)

I have been saying the same thing for years. I would be willing to pay. The money raised from the stamp could go to managing habitat. Glad you opened the box. I am all in.


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## spring (Apr 27, 2020)

Are you talking about a preseason release of week-old quail? If that's the case, in addition to maintaining the habitat to protect the birds from predators, a feeding program will have to be taken on to keep the birds alive. If not that approach, then I guess you mean replicating what the commercial places are doing, which is putting out birds on the day of a hunt... The second option can be quite expensive as well and most commercial places buy their birds from places that raise them. Not sure the State wants to get into the hatching business. I don't know what the current cost is per bird, but I suspect it's still in $5-$7 area. Getting the State to provide a relatively free released bird quail hunting operation might be a tough request.
The biggest obstacle you're going to run into though might be from deer hunters. Way more of them, of course, and they generally aren't interested in severely reducing the basal area of the properties.
Bottom line is that it takes a lot more to maintain and manage a forest or WMA for quail as compared to deer, which is why you see so much more of that approach on state and federal lands.


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## Beagle Stace (Apr 27, 2020)

Thanks coach Doug I believe there is many that share these same thoughts but may not Express it. I always held out hope that alot more could be done on our Wma lands but now I am realistic. And yes I know that if you pound the public ground enough you will find a few birds but not enough to keep young hunters interested and grow the sport. I love to hunt wild birds and always will. I travel out of state yearly to hunt wild birds as most of us do. But I know the good ole days are not coming back in Ga. For the average Joe in sustainable hunting numbers. Give it a try I say and at least provide some opportunity. We as bird hunters should be getting an opportunity to enjoy our sport just as much as deer hunters do. Do the research and look at the states that have a bird stocking release program. Look at the way these programs are funded and managed. It could def. Work here in Ga. On the Wma lands that are not quail focused. Yes I know Ga. At one time was the Quail Capital of the US but those days are long gone and not coming back for us average Joe's. And please dont mention or refer to the Golden Gate plantations in SW Ga. If you commentThat you can find hundreds of coveys of birds on. The average quail hunter in Ga. Will never have access to these places nor be able to afford.


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## Beagle Stace (Apr 27, 2020)

Thanks Spring for comments. I am talking about a put and take program with adult birds that would be funded by a purchased stamp to participate in. Not geared towards trying to provide a self sustaining population at all. Just providing an opportunity for a chance to harvest some birds. The birds could be purchased on contract from a grower to lower costs and overhead. And I dont really care what the deer hunters think. We have tip toed around them long enough on public land.


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## coachdoug87 (Apr 27, 2020)

I can only speak about this part of the state, but most of the WMAs here have a limited number of deer days. When deer days are in, no small game hunting is allowed. These quail hunts would be the same. Also, there are a lot of days between the end of deer season and the beginning of Turkey season. Nobody should be affected in a negative way. Plenty of deer hunters like to small game hunt and vice versa.


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## spring (Apr 28, 2020)

coachdoug87 said:


> I can only speak about this part of the state, but most of the WMAs here have a limited number of deer days. When deer days are in, no small game hunting is allowed. These quail hunts would be the same. Also, there are a lot of days between the end of deer season and the beginning of Turkey season. Nobody should be affected in a negative way. Plenty of deer hunters like to small game hunt and vice versa.



When I mentioned an obstacle from deer hunters, I was not taking about a conflict with the seasons, I meant a conflict with the habitat management, irrespective of the fact that managing for quail is much more labor intensive than can be found with what is needed for deer.


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## trad bow (Apr 28, 2020)

Quail quota hunts on WMA’s would be only way to have birds to hunt for most bird hunters. This past season after hunting and finding a covey of just five birds, I passed on the shot hoping the quail would have a chance at making it to spring breeding season as this was late February. A couple days later I was hunting about a half a mile from that spot when two guys stopped and told me that no birds left caused they found a small covey of five birds the day before and was able to take them all. That’s one reason of many why we have no more quail than we do and why we never will. 
Put and take quail hunting on WMA’s would be the only way to get a dog on birds consistently but would be a hard thing for DNR to manage.


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## spring (Apr 28, 2020)

Beagle Stace said:


> Thanks Spring for comments. I am talking about a put and take program with adult birds that would be funded by a purchased stamp to participate in. Not geared towards trying to provide a self sustaining population at all. Just providing an opportunity for a chance to harvest some birds. The birds could be purchased on contract from a grower to lower costs and overhead. And I dont really care what the deer hunters think. We have tip toed around them long enough on public land.



As with most things, you'd need to follow the money. I think you'll find that there are lots more deer hunters out there than quail hunters, while also evaluating the relative cost to the State for the two ideas. One approach will take a significant amount of ongoing land management while the other doesn't. One will take a steady source of funding for quail purchases, labor, ect, while the other doesn't, all while competing with established private ventures doing much of the same thing. How many stamps do you think you'd need to sell in order to fund the idea? 
There's a good chance that you'll find the cost to do this as a free service to all comers will be relatively significant as the State begins competing with the many private businesses that are already doing this. I do know that the private ones have to have a pretty high volume of customers to survive as the year-round costs to run their places are high. Many went out of business and quit paying all the taxes after the 2008-2009 financial crisis solely because banks had to quit taking customers to them. Reducing their customer base more as a result of the State getting in the business will likely have similar repercussions that could well run into some push back. 
Like I mentioned, follow the money....


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## Beagle Stace (Apr 28, 2020)

Spring, No doubt I understand the follow the money concept and def. this idea will be met with some push back from both commercial operations and the DNR. I AM well aware of this. This idea may not be feasible but it should at least be presented. It would be very easy to gauge the potential by simply sending out a survey to hunters just like is often done currently for feedback on potential rule changes and opportunities. This survey could provide a baseline for potential interest and funding. This is probably the way the trout stocking program came into existence because someone was willing to think outside the box  and challenge  the status quo. Look at the money the trout program provides to the economy in those areas and the resource that those fishing get to enjoy and grow the sport? 

As for effect on the commercial operations this would  be minimal because most people that would support the put and take probably very seldom step foot on a commercial operation. I know I don't. I would rather my money support public land potential. Commercial operations serve a different customer esp. in SW Ga. We all know this. 

Nothing personal against anyone that can afford to have their own land and intensively manage for bird hunting but this is not feasible for the average Joes amongst us. There is enough of the pie to share for all. Imagine if the deer and turkey disappeared. I would wager to bet that a truck would unload some all over the state to keep hunters in the woods.To support the future of hunting and growing our numbers we have to challenge the old way of thinking.


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## spring (Apr 28, 2020)

It's certainly possible that a government-operated free quail hunting alternative would not impact the demand for pay places, but most market conditions have not found that.  I'd think you'd have a much better chance of getting something like this in place if you simply allowed citizens to put pen-raised birds out in some designated areas. You could accomplish much of the same thing without the cost to the state, or creating government funded competition with private businesses.


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## Beagle Stace (Apr 28, 2020)

Spring, the program would not be free in anyway, it would be supported and funded with the money generated by the bird stamp purchased. Hunters who purchase this stamp would hunt on specified days as is done in other states with similar programs. I would encourage anyone interested to do the research. We simply are not doing our future bird hunting generations any justice if we don't explore options.


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## spring (Apr 28, 2020)

What would be a fair price to you for this stamp? Would it be anywhere near the average cost per hunter for the land management and bird purchases? With limited hunting days, the land management costs would need to spread over much fewer hunters than on private properties that hunt from October-March.....


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## Beagle Stace (Apr 28, 2020)

I would gladly pay 3X cost of current small game license to support this initiative as probably many would. This question could be presented in preliminary survey with cost options to select. this would be the baseline for the effort. The land management point is mute. The program is to provide put and take not long term habitat improvement. This is being accomplished on quail focus areas with great results. Hunters that do not purchase stamp would still have opportunity to harvest


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## ucfireman (Apr 28, 2020)

I must admit I just skimmed the posts so please don't shoot me if I post something too stupid.
As far as the idea of a put and take quail season, I kind of like that . I also like the idea of trying a restocking program, they did it with deer, turkey and elk in other states. So why not quail.
As far as the money or stamp. I have no problem with the stamp (I have a lifetime license) but the trout stamp doesn't cost more does it? I thought it was part of your regular fishing license like the WMA for a hunting license.  Or the SIP HIP permits. 
But I do not think you should have to pay for the "Quail stamp". They just raised license fees and reallocated "sporting goods taxes" to pay for "outdoor" uses. That should be plenty of money is used correctly.


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## riverkeeper1 (Apr 28, 2020)

I'm glad that this topic has sparked interest. More on why I brought this topic up.. I was introduced to quail hunting my freshman year of college. I have a couple of close friends who are blessed to have families with rather large tracts of land and we started getting friends together a few times a year and buying 25-50 birds to set out and made a great day out of it. This sparked my interest and the next thing you know I've got a bird dog and loving every second that I get to watch him hunt birds. I still have the opportunity to hunt with my friends on these properties and we often times run across wild coveys which seem to not be affected whatsoever by us releasing pen raised quail. I also have friends that work plantations in SWGA that release hundreds of birds daily on properties that have a very sustainable wild quail population (which may also be due to the many pen raised birds released). I say all that to say this.. As we grow older we sometimes drift away from our friends and those hunting opportunities may drift away as well. I for one did not come from a family with large tracts of land. I've made a career and have goals of buying land one day but I'm not there yet. I have a brother and 2 nephews that I would LOVE to introduce to this sport. I live literally a minute away from a WMA that has great open pine forest that would be perfect to quail hunt. I personally don't mind running my dogs out there after wild birds for hours without getting on a covey of quail. I've done this and I just enjoy watching my dogs run. However, I don't think my two nephews would get that same thrill. What would be the trouble in buying a stamp or license that would allow me to go buy a dozen pen raised quail and hunting them on the WMA with my family a couple mornings in the winter and frying up some quial and gravy that afternoon? Lets be perfectly honest. The State ran WMA's can't keep the rift raft out there parking and doing drugs, littering the roads with beer cans, and god knows what else.. do we really think the State can manage and increase a quail population? No. point blank the answer is no they cannot. So why not give us the opportunity to use these public lands for their intended use of hunting and introduce hunters to hunting opportunities. I understand that pen raised birds may not be "hunting" to some and to each their own, but some of us didn't grow up in the hay day of GA wild quail, we can't all travel out west to hunt, we can't all go hunt a 10,000 acre tract of strictly managed land in Thomasville, but we ALL love to "hunt".


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## spring (Apr 28, 2020)

So managing the WMA any differently than is currently in practice would not be necessary?  Maybe so; I can't say I'm familiar with the WMA that you have in mind.  Since the property wouldn't need to be managed to sustain birds, no roosting or evident feeding areas would be necessary, which would certainly save money. No periodic summer spraying of hardwoods would be important, though I'm sure you'd want them to at least burn. I would assume that the spot would be designated for quail hunting, so keeping the basal area around 40 would make sense.  The result wouldn't be ideal, but for the price, it might do.
Of course the State would want to minimize cost, just as they do with the Trout program. They wouldn't provide guides, jeeps, ect.  To keep the day with a measure of hunting involved, you wouldn't want them to let you know where they put a few birds under a clump of brush, so it would be up to the hunter to try to figure out where on WMA the state employee happened to do that. All of this might work if the tract was relatively small.


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## ucfireman (Apr 28, 2020)

Also there used to be a Quail license plate that the funds could be used for this effort.


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## TomoAndMosse (Apr 28, 2020)

As a new upland hunter I love the idea. I used to be a big deer hunter back in my teens and just lost interest. I recently was introduced to bird hunting a couple years ago. I now have my own dog and we did our first season this past year. I enjoy the trips up north and dream of trips out west but would love it if we could have a program here in our own state. I would most definitely pay more for the license if this meant more focus on quail. I know I am an amateur hunter but sign me up!


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## spring (Apr 28, 2020)

ucfireman said:


> I must admit I just skimmed the posts so please don't shoot me if I post something too stupid.
> As far as the idea of a put and take quail season, I kind of like that . I also like the idea of trying a restocking program, they did it with deer, turkey and elk in other states. So why not quail.
> As far as the money or stamp. I have no problem with the stamp (I have a lifetime license) but the trout stamp doesn't cost more does it? I thought it was part of your regular fishing license like the WMA for a hunting license.  Or the SIP HIP permits.
> But I do not think you should have to pay for the "Quail stamp". They just raised license fees and reallocated "sporting goods taxes" to pay for "outdoor" uses. That should be plenty of money is used correctly.



Restocking quail has worked to a limited degree if the birds are being moved to a place that has all of the necessary features in place for the birds to survive and thrive. This includes so many things beyond a pretty open pine savannah. What it takes for the birds to eat, nest, and hide generally has to be well thought out and planned for. Also keep in mind that the numbers of relocatable quail are very small. Not many land owners are going to let the government come catch and move their birds. Tall Timbers has a very limited  restocking program for private properties that meet their very stringent criteria.
After a few birds have been introduced, they have to managed.  By this I simply mean _not hunted. _Very difficult to accomplish this on a public place with random and assorted hunters coming through.
Wild birds are an incredibly special resource. They are indeed thriving in many places (I'm sitting here right now listening to them all around me), but there's a reason they're typically only on private lands, and most of it is from managed hunting pressure.


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## Beagle Stace (Apr 28, 2020)

Spring, what you say is very valuable and you are very knowledgeable as other input is also. It is very hard to get young hunters and youth involved when on public land in most parts of the state esp. North of Macon are very limited. Yes like someone else stated I don't mind pounding all day for maybe 2 coveys or 3 at best and some too small to shoot into. But you cant get new hunters excited with this. 

The stamp for the put and take program would provide the funding and certain WMA properties could be utilized. Perfect example is Clybel WMA in the Piedmont region. Smaller in size but many fields and edges to hunt released birds. Each region could have at least 1 property designated. and perhaps as others suggested these properties could be also utilized for dog training areas and hunter release of birds. As someone mentioned the quail license plate. I have one but I know this money is allocated to the quail focus areas and private land programs so I know the Bird stamp has to created for the new program. The state resources could never cover the costs to make public land quail hunting available statewide. Never but this program would create opportunity for others to enjoy and experience bird hunting.


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## coachdoug87 (Apr 28, 2020)

If self release is the only option, I would be the with that. Just have more training areas than they have now. I could show you some good places right now. They are not big enough to support wild quail, but they would provide good cover for released birds. These are 100 acre and smaller portions of WMAs that are 25000 or so acres. Surely they can give us that.


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## spring (Apr 28, 2020)

Beagle Stace said:


> Spring, what you say is very valuable and you are very knowledgeable as other input is also. It is very hard to get young hunters and youth involved when on public land in most parts of the state esp. North of Macon are very limited. Yes like someone else stated I don't mind pounding all day for maybe 2 coveys or 3 at best and some too small to shoot into. But you cant get new hunters excited with this.
> 
> The stamp for the put and take program would provide the funding and certain WMA properties could be utilized. Perfect example is Clybel WMA in the Piedmont region. Smaller in size but many fields and edges to hunt released birds. Each region could have at least 1 property designated. and perhaps as others suggested these properties could be also utilized for dog training areas and hunter release of birds. As someone mentioned the quail license plate. I have one but I know this money is allocated to the quail focus areas and private land programs so I know the Bird stamp has to created for the new program. The state resources could never cover the costs to make public land quail hunting available statewide. Never but this program would create opportunity for others to enjoy and experience bird hunting.



Your idea is very sound. The only issue that would need to be addressed is the lack of a guide after birds are put out. Wild birds feed each morning and afternoon, leaving  scent as they move around. This obviously can help your dogs out a bit, though this advantage is gone when you're not near feeding time. That's where working your dogs into nearby cover can be helpful.  Released birds generally just sit where they were spun around and then released; pretty much leaves just wind direction to help the dog. Of course the property wouldn't be managed to have midday cover to check out. That's why you see that most commercial places only have beautiful pine plantation to explore; taking care of the rest of bird's day and year isn't important.  That's why guides that know where the birds were put can be helpful. As you push for and set up this new program, maybe encourage optional guides to stick around and work for tips...


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## coachdoug87 (Apr 28, 2020)

They are a special resource. That is why I don't understand the 12 bird limit. There is no way anybody should be able to kill that many quail. Now I understand that nobody is likely to get that many, but to me it sends the wrong message. It gives the impression that they are more plentiful than they are. It is the same way with a 3 bird per day limit on grouse. I would like to know all of your opinions on this.


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## spring (Apr 28, 2020)

I've hunted a few places that could handle a 12-bird limit, but even then I'd feel like a game hog when doing so, not to mention hitting that many of those blistering rascals is about beyond me. People that only hunt released birds have no idea what a different game wild birds are.
On my place I'm very careful about how many birds we take, not just for the day, but for the season. With coveys being very territorial, it's pretty easy to get know each one, and as a result, know well how many from each covey have been taken. Most research says to take no more than 10%-15% of a covey; sometimes I take less than that.
By mid January I'm usually looking ahead to the next season, which means focusing on winter survival. I hunt through the end of February, but long before the end of the season, I'm just enjoying the dog work and shooting in the air.
Good winter survival means more birds for spring nesting. More nesters means the potential for more successful broods, which obviously means you have a better chance at more birds in the fall. Winter survival is always a key focus.


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## setters (Apr 30, 2020)

I think a stamp and some sort of put and take would be a great idea.  Do any other states do this?  I know up North they do with pheasants but I wonder if anyone has had success with quail or chukkar in the south.  From what I understand about early release birds on plantations, it takes a lot of birds and multiple releases to keep huntable numbers.  It’s tough to get kids into walking 5 or 6 miles and expecting not to see anything on a regular basis.  Tell me where to send a check for my upland stamp!


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## Beagle Stace (Apr 30, 2020)

Thanks Setters for reply and support. I hope to have some updates on potential of this type of program once our crazy world settles down some. I don't think early release would be the way to go but rather put and take. Imagine how exciting it would be for young kids and new bird hunters to reasonably have a chance to harvest a few birds on public land without having to walk for miles on end lol.


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## coachdoug87 (Apr 30, 2020)

I would love to see it happen. Thanks for putting this out there.


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## across the river (May 1, 2020)

Not to be Debbie Downer but expecting anything to be done on public ground is a pipe dream even if it is supposedly done “for the children.”    A quail stamp wouldn’t  raise enough money to cover the cost of gas money to set birds out, much less buy the birds or pay the warden. There used to be a program for kids the DNR ran or was at least involved, I think it was called SEEDS, where private land owners would allow kids to come hunt there own land. That couldn't even be maintained and barely used any public resources. Look at the DU projects that have been created and turned over to the state that haven't been maintained.   I'm not blaming the DNR, because it mainly comes down to issues with funding, or lack thereof. However, history does show that the chances of starting another program, when you can't manage the ones you've got, isn't a realistic option. 

 If you really want to start something like this you should look at starting a 501c3 non profit.  It won't be easy either, but you are far more likely to be able to collect enough money to work with from businesses and individuals who have no problem forking over money for a tax write-off than you are trying to convince the DNR to support a quail stamp  for chicken quail that the people who you want to buy the stamp won't even get to hunt.  I would be willing to bet you could even get some of the plantations to "donate" to the cause.   You would have to get it started, get liability insurance, raise money, etc..... but that is a better open than waiting on the DNR.   If you think they are going to start a stamp program to support a released quail option, I have a beach house in Habersham County you might be interested in buying.


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## spring (May 1, 2020)

Another very simple option for those that don't want to pay for one of the commercial quail hunting places for a hunt would be to simply go buy the birds that you want to hunt. That way if you want to shoot 10 birds, you can. If you want more, buy more. Keep your budget at the level of your choosing. The vast majority of the private lands in Georgia are not doing any quail hunting on them. Finding someone to let you put out a few birds would not at all be difficult if you ask around. It would be a lot easier to get this in place than to wait on a government agency to do this for you, especially with the 14% budget cut, and you wouldn't be limited by the number of days a state-run hunt would have to have.


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## trad bow (May 2, 2020)

spring said:


> Another very simple option for those that don't want to pay for one of the commercial quail hunting places for a hunt would be to simply go buy the birds that you want to hunt. That way if you want to shoot 10 birds, you can. If you want more, buy more. Keep your budget at the level of your choosing. The vast majority of the private lands in Georgia are not doing any quail hunting on them. Finding someone to let you put out a few birds would not at all be difficult if you ask around. It would be a lot easier to get this in place than to wait on a government agency to do this for you, especially with the 14% budget cut, and you wouldn't be limited by the number of days a state-run hunt would have to have.


This is what I do. Well whenever I have birds. In short supply right now. May need to buy an incubator.


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## Eroc33 (May 27, 2020)

This is done successfully up north with phesants, and it pays for itself with a $26.00 stamp. I think it's a great idea with quail or phesants, and maybe a slightly better idea with phesants here because they are hardier and they dont have to worry about them breeding with the wild quail. Even if the stamp was $50-$75 it would be way less than one trip to a plantation.

And on a side note the only reason i think they still have a 12 bird limit is for the Thomasville plantations.


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## Beagle Stace (May 27, 2020)

Eroc, I totally agree about the pheasant idea if competition with existing quail is a concern. Chukar could also be used to lower cost of raising birds. Feel free to contact DNR directly also to present your opinions.


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## coachdoug87 (May 27, 2020)

I would gladly pay 100 for a stamp. I have thought for a long time that something like this might work. I will call the DNR and give my 2 cents worth too.


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## coachdoug87 (May 27, 2020)

Eroc33 said:


> This is done successfully up north with phesants, and it pays for itself with a $26.00 stamp. I think it's a great idea with quail or phesants, and maybe a slightly better idea with phesants here because they are hardier and they dont have to worry about them breeding with the wild quail. Even if the stamp was $50-$75 it would be way less than one trip to a plantation.
> 
> And on a side note the only reason i think they still have a 12 bird limit is for the Thomasville plantations.


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## coachdoug87 (May 27, 2020)

Maybe they should have different limits on different zones like they do with deer..


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## Eroc33 (May 28, 2020)

I think the DNR is very concerned about the pen raised birds breeding with wild birds, I found a response from the DNR awhile back when someone asked about getting a bird dog training area at Joe Kurz, before there was one. That seemed to be one of their biggest concerns. Do you have a certain contact at the DNR which we should reach out to?


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## Beagle Stace (May 29, 2020)

Eroc, I have reached out to Rusty Garrison and he has been very receptive. Garrison, Rusty Rusty.Garrison@dnr.ga.gov  I hope to be able to meet with at some point in near future. We have to voice our concerns to be heard and make a difference.


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## Throwback (May 30, 2020)

coachdoug87 said:


> They are a special resource. That is why I don't understand the 12 bird limit. There is no way anybody should be able to kill that many quail. Now I understand that nobody is likely to get that many, but to me it sends the wrong message. It gives the impression that they are more plentiful than they are. It is the same way with a 3 bird per day limit on grouse. I would like to know all of your opinions on this.



I would agree with that but In most of the state literally no one even quail hunts so i don’t  know that it would have any affect at all in the quail population 

Near me are multiple multiple thousand acre properties owned by multi millionaires and possibly billionaires that grow big deer. They should be growing wild quail too IMO but they don’t as far as I am aware


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## Eroc33 (Jun 5, 2020)

Beagle Stace said:


> Eroc, I have reached out to Rusty Garrison and he has been very receptive. Garrison, Rusty Rusty.Garrison@dnr.ga.gov  I hope to be able to meet with at some point in near future. We have to voice our concerns to be heard and make a difference.



I sent him an email a little while ago, hopefully we can get something going. 

Throwback, they definitely should be but they probably don't know that they can change a few things and create quail habitat at the same time.


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## coachdoug87 (Jun 5, 2020)

I sent.him an email too. Let's hope for the best.


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## Eroc33 (Jun 9, 2020)

I got a very thorough response from Dallas Ingram that basically said it's not going to happen. The two biggest reasons were Georgia predator populations are to high, and fears of disease transmitting from pen raised birds to wild birds.  I still need to respond to him.


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## coachdoug87 (Jun 9, 2020)

I got his email and we emailed back and forth. He did say he is working on getting some new training areas. That will help. But, you are right, an actual state stocking program is not going 
to happen. He also said they are working with quail forever on some new areas. Also, t he dnr is working on some new grouse areas. News not all bad.


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## trad bow (Jun 10, 2020)

I don’t think it will happen and if it did and turned out like the trout truck followers it would not make it worthwhile.


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## coachdoug87 (Jun 10, 2020)

They would probably bring the same net and buckets they use for trout.


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## spring (Jun 10, 2020)

Glad you tried but I can't say I'm surprised at the initial response. She basically brought up most of the obstacles we discussed earlier in this thread, only leaving out the issue that the private sector is already providing "put and take" hunting. The biggest obstacle, besides the threat of disease (perceived or not) that I don't think they want to risk, is simply the cost. As we've discussed previously, I don't see the revenue from a collection of stamps at the price point mentioned would be anywhere near the land management, labor, and hunt day overhead/bird costs to make this happen. You simply can’t crowd in unlimited numbers of stamp buying participants with quail like you can with trout.
I think getting the State or Fed to consider regular burning of their lands, which would be the cheapest way to enhance wild bird populations, would be a much more successful request and effort; one that would be in concert with their existing programs to improve wild bird habitat and populations.


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## spring (Jun 10, 2020)

Eroc33 said:


> I got a very thorough response from Dallas Ingram that basically said it's not going to happen. The two biggest reasons were Georgia predator populations are to high, and fears of disease transmitting from pen raised birds to wild birds.  I still need to respond to *him.*



Dallas is female.... ?


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## coachdoug87 (Jun 10, 2020)

I made the same mistake. SHE did seem to want to help. The idea of burning is a great idea, but the
Trouble is so many people are opposed to cutting a free off Federal lands, let alone burning. I have always said the National Forest lands would be the answer for quail and grouse if they could be managed right.


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## Beagle Stace (Jun 11, 2020)

Eroc, just curious what position Dallas Ingram holds and which agency?


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## coachdoug87 (Jun 11, 2020)

My email said State Quail Coordinator Wildlife Resources Division.


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## spring (Jun 11, 2020)

Beagle Stace said:


> Eroc, just curious what position Dallas Ingram holds and which agency?



She worked out of the DNR’s Albany office for a while; sent landowners a monthly email with land and quail management tips for years. They were always well thought out and a great resource of things that needed to be done at that point. 
She would also come to a landowner’s property when asked and give habitat management ideas and suggestions.


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## Eroc33 (Jun 11, 2020)

trad bow said:


> I don’t think it will happen and if it did and turned out like the trout truck followers it would not make it worthwhile.



I would hope they would release them at dusk the afternoon before a hunt, but yeah probably so.



spring said:


> Glad you tried but I can't say I'm surprised at the initial response. She basically brought up most of the obstacles we discussed earlier in this thread, only leaving out the issue that the private sector is already providing "put and take" hunting. The biggest obstacle, besides the threat of disease (perceived or not) that I don't think they want to risk, is simply the cost. As we've discussed previously, I don't see the revenue from a collection of stamps at the price point mentioned would be anywhere near the land management, labor, and hunt day overhead/bird costs to make this happen. You simply can’t crowd in unlimited numbers of stamp buying participants with quail like you can with trout.
> I think getting the State or Fed to consider regular burning of their lands, which would be the cheapest way to enhance wild bird populations, would be a much more successful request and effort; one that would be in concert with their existing programs to improve wild bird habitat and populations.



Im all for Wild bird hunting, and more burning would be great, I personally limit myself to 3 pen raised bird hunts a year and at least one has to be in march, so I beat the bushes the rest of the year. the frustrating thing is getting new people involved is difficult due to expense or lack of opportunity.  



spring said:


> Dallas is female.... ?



Good to know, thanks...



Beagle Stace said:


> Eroc, just curious what position Dallas Ingram holds and which agency?



"State Quail Coordinator, Game Management"  I didn't know Georgia had one.


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## spring (Jun 11, 2020)

coachdoug87 said:


> I made the same mistake. SHE did seem to want to help. The idea of burning is a great idea, but the
> Trouble is so many people are opposed to cutting a free off Federal lands, let alone burning. I have always said the National Forest lands would be the answer for quail and grouse if they could be managed right.



As you’ll see, there is a plan for parts of the National Forest in the works to begin cutting timber, burning, reducing the closed canopy, and increasing the bio diversity of some parts of the Southern Appalachians, which includes areas for the direct benefit of a game bird. You can currently submit your thoughts on the whole project here:

https://ruffedgrousesociety.org/nan...-revision-fact-sheet-and-position-statements/


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## KyDawg (Jun 11, 2020)

trad bow said:


> Quail quota hunts on WMA’s would be only way to have birds to hunt for most bird hunters. This past season after hunting and finding a covey of just five birds, I passed on the shot hoping the quail would have a chance at making it to spring breeding season as this was late February. A couple days later I was hunting about a half a mile from that spot when two guys stopped and told me that no birds left caused they found a small covey of five birds the day before and was able to take them all. That’s one reason of many why we have no more quail than we do and why we never will.
> Put and take quail hunting on WMA’s would be the only way to get a dog on birds consistently but would be a hard thing for DNR to manage.



Trad, that is something that upset me. There are still a few coveys around here, and they are trying to make a comeback. I know of about 4 hunters that will chase down and kill the last bird in the covey if they can. Then they will complain that there are no birds anymore.


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## spring (Jun 11, 2020)

Eroc33 said:


> I would hope they would release them at dusk the afternoon before a hunt, but yeah probably so.



The problem is, released birds are totally clueless on how to survive in the wild. They’re sitting ducks for all the predators out there, not to mention the fact that they would have no reason to stay anywhere near where they were initially released, particularly after hawks come in at sunrise and begin picking them off. Regrouping into a covey by the time hunters show up? Won’t happen since they were never a covey to begin with. That’s why commercial quail places spin the birds in a croker sack to get them dizzy and put them under a clump of grass when they put the birds out maybe an hour before the hunters arrive.


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## KyDawg (Jun 11, 2020)

I dont know if it is a good idea to be working broke dogs on released birds. Especially if you are going to be hunting on wild Quail.


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## Beagle Stace (Jun 11, 2020)

I still believe more could be done on public land. I am all for what the state quail coordinator does but I know this position and funding is mostly focused on a few select WMA properties and private land. Nothing wrong with this focus but extremely limited FOR THE AVG. PERSON. If disease from released birds is an issue focus on using chukar and pheasants. I just don't buy the concept that it cant happen. It has never been tried here so without data to support a possibllel failure how can you not at least explore the option esp. if it brings new hunters into the field and provides opportunities?


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## Eroc33 (Jun 11, 2020)

spring said:


> The problem is, released birds are totally clueless on how to survive in the wild. They’re sitting ducks for all the predators out there, not to mention the fact that they would have no reason to stay anywhere near where they were initially released, particularly after hawks comes in at sunrise and begin picking them off. Regrouping into a covey by the time hunters show up? Won’t happen since they were never a covey to begin with. That’s why commercial quail places spin the birds in a croker sack to get them dizzy and put them under a clump of grass when they put the birds out maybe an hour before the hunters arrive.



I was referring to pheasants, putting quail out the night before would be a horrible idea. If you threw 100 pheasants into a field on Friday night I bet 85-95 would be near there Saturday morning. 




Beagle Stace said:


> I still believe more could be done on public land. I am all for what the state quail coordinator does but I know this position and funding is mostly focused on a few select WMA properties and private land. Nothing wrong with this focus but extremely limited FOR THE AVG. PERSON. If disease from released birds is an issue focus on using chukar and pheasants. I just don't buy the concept that it cant happen. It has never been tried here so without data to support a possibllel failure how can you not at least explore the option esp. if it brings new hunters into the field and provides opportunities?



I agree, they are not intrested in trying. I don't see why they couldn't do a trial at one WMA one year and let it grow. I think your best bet is if you can find a legislature that wants it to happen, and they can persuade them to do it.


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## spring (Jun 11, 2020)

With the current $1 Billion budget deficit and the challenge of anti-hunters, what  do you think the State Legislature, or the DNR, would think if some Georgia hunters asked them to fund a hunting program with non-native species solely for recreation since the birds couldn’t survive a Georgia summer? Not trying to be negative, but you have to consider the challenges or objections that are likely to come your way.
Improving habitat for a native, and regionally endangered species, such a quail, will likely get much less resistance.

Bobwhite Quail Initiative

Bobwhite Quail Southern Pine Savanna Restoration Project


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## coachdoug87 (Jun 11, 2020)

I mentioned Pheasants and Chuckers in my email and she said that would be better than quail, but would still be a problem due to increase in predators. I have always wondered why the regulations for dog training areas specify pen raised quail. It looks like other game birds would be allowed. I appreciate beagle stace starting this discussion. We need to be talking about possibilities instead of just complaining or longing for the good old days.


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## spring (Jun 11, 2020)

coachdoug87 said:


> I mentioned Pheasants and Chuckers in my email and she said that would be better than quail, but would still be a problem due to increase in predators. I have always wondered why the regulations for dog training areas specify pen raised quail. It looks like other game birds would be allowed. I appreciate beagle stace starting this discussion. We need to be talking about possibilities instead of just complaining or longing for the good old days.



I can certainly see how chukars or pheasants would pose less risk to native species since they wouldn’t be interacting.  Being pen raised, they could still lure in predators, which is always a concern to a biologist like Dallas that is focused on enhancing the opportunities for our native birds.
Private lands that have little interest in increasing their wild quail and are licensed game preserves are allowed to bring in pen raised birds of about any variety. Head to Southern Woods Plantation and you’ll find a surprise pheasant or two mixed into your quail hunt. Getting a State of Georgia biologist to endorse the same for public land is going to be tough, especially when you bring in the next hurdle, which is _who is going to pay for it?_


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## coachdoug87 (Jun 11, 2020)

I am a member of a preserve where you can shoot all 3. I have noticed Pheasants seem to survive and get wilder acting if they make it past the first few days.


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## Deplorable Birdhunter (Jun 12, 2020)

If quail are released between their 6th & 10th week they do stand a better chance of survival! But they need to be Northern quail & not the Jumbo strain.


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## Barebowyer (Jun 23, 2020)

This is an interesting thread and I love all of the suggestions, viewpoints, etc.  Those of you interested in getting your dogs on birds, what would you think of a private landowner opening his land up, supplying the birds for a fee, and you hunting them yourselves.  Bring your own dogs, here's the property line, have at them kinda of a thing!  Curious?


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## spring (Jun 24, 2020)

Barebowyer said:


> This is an interesting thread and I love all of the suggestions, viewpoints, etc.  Those of you interested in getting your dogs on birds, what would you think of a private landowner opening his land up, supplying the birds for a fee, and you hunting them yourselves.  Bring your own dogs, here's the property line, have at them kinda of a thing!  Curious?



I think that would work well, especially if _you provided your own birds_. The landowner buying and warehousing birds for hunters who then compensate the landowner for the trouble is a model that already exists pretty substantially with commercial quail hunting plantations. The model where a landowner simply lets someone come and release a few birds on their place for the good times that would follow is likely less known to some people, but is out there for the hunters that develop the landowner friendships that facilitate it.


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## across the river (Jun 25, 2020)

Barebowyer said:


> This is an interesting thread and I love all of the suggestions, viewpoints, etc.  Those of you interested in getting your dogs on birds, what would you think of a private landowner opening his land up, supplying the birds for a fee, and you hunting them yourselves.  Bring your own dogs, here's the property line, have at them kinda of a thing!  Curious?



Great idea.   Oh wait, it is called a hunting preserve, which there are plenty of already in the state.    There is no cheap or low cost option that you all seem to be pursuing.   It is like "free healthcare", it does not exist.   If you all want to do this, get a group together, pool you money together, and do it yourself.  That is what most people do, or  they pay a preserve for there time and effort of putting birds out and allowing them to hunt.


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## Barebowyer (Jun 28, 2020)

across the river said:


> Great idea.   Oh wait, it is called a hunting preserve, which there are plenty of already in the state.    There is no cheap or low cost option that you all seem to be pursuing.   It is like "free healthcare", it does not exist.   If you all want to do this, get a group together, pool you money together, and do it yourself.  That is what most people do, or  they pay a preserve for there time and effort of putting birds out and allowing them to hunt.



While we all appreciate good sarcasm and a demeaning attitude, I believe hunting preserves traditionally charge you for, and provide you with a guide, dogs, etc., therefore, there is quite a difference in what I suggested.  Appreciate you keeping it alive though, thanks.


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## across the river (Jun 28, 2020)

Barebowyer said:


> While we all appreciate good sarcasm and a demeaning attitude, I believe hunting preserves traditionally charge you for, and provide you with a guide, dogs, etc., therefore, there is quite a difference in what I suggested.  Appreciate you keeping it alive though, thanks.



Depends on the preserve.  There are plenty that will put birds out for you to "self guide."    My point is everything costs money for someone.  All these ideas sound great in theory, but by the time a random, private landowner, with no ties to qual at all bought quail, put them out, had people all over his place, etc.... he will have as much in it as it would cost you to go to preserve to start with.   They are already set up for it.    Again, there are plenty of people on here.   One of you has to have access to to land to let birds out.  Pitch in together, buy some birds, go put them out and hunt.    That is the cheapest, most efficient way to do it.    Thinking the government or anyone else is going to provide some great, open tp the public, release quail hunts is a pipe dream.


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## spring (Aug 19, 2020)

Here's an option that fits much of what has been searched for in this thread:  _Unguided hunts for $225 per hunter for a half day hunt. Limit 20 birds per hunter. _  Bring your own dogs, here's the property line, and have at it. I can't speak for if this place is any good, but for many, the price is right.

Triple P Plantation


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## across the river (Aug 19, 2020)

spring said:


> Here's an option that fits much of what has been searched for in this thread:  _Unguided hunts for $225 per hunter for a half day hunt. Limit 20 birds per hunter. _  Bring your own dogs, here's the property line, and have at it. I can't speak for if this place is any good, but for many, the price is right.
> 
> Triple P Plantation



Like I said above, there are several of these places all across the state, and in less time than it took them to type on this thread they could have found one.   Here is another one for the North Georgia guys and an even cheaper pay by the bird option.    

https://popeplantation.com


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