# The wedding at Cana



## gordon 2 (Mar 14, 2015)

John 2  (KJV)

2 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
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Can some of you share what you think is going on here as far as the relationship between Mary and Jesus goes? Is Mary in charge here or is Jesus? Is Jesus rebuking his mother here? Is Mary saying, "Regardless of what you might think my son, do as I ask you."

What is the relationship of one to the other here? Jesus is not under her skirt, because we know he had disciples or disciples were with him. Yet Mary is still his mother.  And we know who Jesus is. So what is going on here?

 It seems to me that if Jesus is rebuking his mother, " Women, what have I to do with thee."  This does not seem to sway her in the least, nor the " my hour has not come" comment, as she says in reply, " ... unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it." And we know what Jesus did. He did as he was told-- and his hour did begin regardless what he wished.

So in this case who has more authority in what is appropriate to do in the situation? Mary or Jesus?

Or is there another way of looking at this that would not require the questions I have above?

I was told that gramatical exegesis might not support my view... but is gramatical exegesis important here? And expecially that I know nothing of it-gramatical or otherwise? Ideas?


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 14, 2015)

LOL, I am always the one. I don't actually believe this story. I think it is an embellishment. Jesus said he could only do what he sees his father doing. Making wine for a party is hardly the work of God. Not only that, we have the conflicting story of where Jesus's mother and brothers went to take charge for they believed he was out of his mind... or something like that. If she had seen him make wine from water and knew he was capable of this, nothing Jesus did after that would surprise her.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 14, 2015)

Jesus said to Mary: Woman , what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.

I read into this that Mary's special role as Jesus mother gives her no authority to intervene in Christ's messianic career.

My hour, refers to Jesus suffering and death...it is Him and not Mary that determines the timetable of His earthly  ministry.

Also I see this as a type of shadow, of bringing in the New Covenant...the water in stone jars symbolizing the Old Covenant ceremonial washings....and the wine symbolizing eternal life in God's Kingdom.


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## Big7 (Mar 14, 2015)

Check this out.  

http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=50&bible_chapter=2

Mary had No incestuous relationshop wlth our Lord.

Yes.. She was born without stain of original sin.

She remained a virgin all of her life.

She ascended to Heaven, bodily, as such.

Jesus Christ is truly God, the Second Person of the Trinity, 
the Son, the Eternal Word, who with the Father and the Holy Spirit always was, is, and always will be.

And no.. he didn't have any brothers or sisters
His Mother was birthed by Her Perfect Mother..

Often confused with "Immaculate Conception"
which was not Mary's conception of Jesus but
her Mother's conception of Mary, the most perfect
vessel to concieve Jesus.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 14, 2015)

Big7 said:


> She remained a virgin all of her life.
> 
> 
> And no.. he didn't have any brothers or sisters
> ...



 

Third verse here. http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=48&bible_chapter=6


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 14, 2015)

Big7 said:


> Check this out.
> 
> http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=50&bible_chapter=2
> 
> ...



Interesting as I'm not too familiar with Catholicism. I have heard of Mary being without sin. I never heard that of the Immaculate Conception pertaining to Mary's birth.
My question is, if Mary's mother was without sin, and Mary was immaculately conceived, who was her father?
Do we have scripture to back this up?
It would appear that somewhere in the lineage of Jesus, someone would need to sin in order for Jesus to be from the line of David and to be human enough to make the sacrifice.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 14, 2015)

Why would we assume sex/conception is a sin? or am I misunderstanding?  The Catholics gave that up long time ago because it conflicts with the trinity. Why, because you would almost need to include her


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 14, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Interesting as I'm not too familiar with Catholicism. I have heard of Mary being without sin. I never heard that of the Immaculate Conception pertaining to Mary's birth.
> My question is, if Mary's mother was without sin, and Mary was immaculately conceived, who was her father?
> Do we have scripture to back this up?
> It would appear that somewhere in the lineage of Jesus, someone would need to sin in order for Jesus to be from the line of David and to be human enough to make the sacrifice.


Yes, if Jesus was not from Davids lineage, then he can not be the Christ


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## Israel (Mar 15, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> John 2  (KJV)
> 
> 2 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
> 
> ...



And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.



His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.


And a woman who had been suffering from a hemorrhage for twelve years, came up behind Him and touched the fringe of His cloak; for she was saying to herself, "If I only touch His garment, I will get well." But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.

But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions, how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?…


It came about when Ahab heard these words, that he tore his clothes and put on sackcloth and fasted, and he lay in sackcloth and went about despondently. Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying, "Do you see how Ahab has humbled himself before Me? Because he has humbled himself before Me, I will not bring the evil in his days, but I will bring the evil upon his house in his son's days."

Faith and humility never go unnoticed.
Except by everyone else.


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## NE GA Pappy (Mar 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Also I see this as a type of shadow, of bringing in the New Covenant...the water in stone jars symbolizing the Old Covenant ceremonial washings....and the wine symbolizing eternal life in God's Kingdom.



you are correct.  The jars they are filling are the ceremonial washing pots that were in each jewish home.  The symbolism here is that the wine represented Jesus blood that was shed for the remission of sins, and it was replacing the old covenant of ceremonial washing.

So we have the ceremonial cleansing water being replaced by the blood of our Savior as a foretelling of what was to come. 

I believe this is the hour that Jesus spoke of not coming, not the time of his ministry.  This was the first of the miracles that He performed, and if you noticed, it was after his baptism by John and the dove descended upon him.  It would appear that although Jesus was fully God before the baptism, that there was something endowed to Him at the baptism to signal the start of his ministry.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 15, 2015)

Israel said:


> And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good point, if not a big one from your observations of Jesus' miracles in other cases. It is the relationship that is important. "What is this to me?" ---"that I should minister to these people"? And it would seem that what it is to him is Mary's relationship to him. And if we go the other miracles you've shown, it is not her relationship as his mother, ( and perhaps the reason he says "woman" in lieu of Mother) that is the most important, but especially her relationship in faith with God. When she tells the servants, "Do as he says. " it is with the confidence of  her faith that she speaks, and not especially that " Listen, I'm your mom. Do as I say."

Good point Isreal... is this sort of what your meaning... If you can add do so.

Others?


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## Israel (Mar 15, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Good point, if not a big one from your observations of Jesus' miracles in other cases. It is the relationship that is important. "What is this to me?" ---"that I should minister to these people"? And it would seem that what it is to him is Mary's relationship to him. And if we go the other miracles you've shown, it is not her relationship as his mother, ( and perhaps the reason he says "woman" in lieu of Mother) that is the most important, but especially her relationship in faith with God. When she tells the servants, "Do as he says. " it is with the confidence of  her faith that she speaks, and not especially that " Listen, I'm your mom. Do as I say."
> 
> Good point Isreal... is this sort of what your meaning... If you can add do so.
> 
> Others?



Yes, I kinda think you got it perfectly.
That faith that won't let go...even past rebuke.
Or risking it.
That woman, with the issue of blood, didn't she know she was unclean? And gonna "touch" a rabbi? THE Rabbi?
Desperation and faith often seem to have a link...but who of us could ever "choose" wanting to be brought to desperation? And yet, O!, what we have found there!
Maybe someone quite desperate to find us!


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## gordon 2 (Mar 15, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> you are correct.  The jars they are filling are the ceremonial washing pots that were in each jewish home.  The symbolism here is that the wine represented Jesus blood that was shed for the remission of sins, and it was replacing the old covenant of ceremonial washing.
> 
> So we have the ceremonial cleansing water being replaced by the blood of our Savior as a foretelling of what was to come.
> 
> I believe this is the hour that Jesus spoke of not coming, not the time of his ministry.  This was the first of the miracles that He performed, and if you noticed, it was after his baptism by John and the dove descended upon him.  It would appear that although Jesus was fully God before the baptism, that there was something endowed to Him at the baptism to signal the start of his ministry.




I also see it as a foreshadow of things to come.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 15, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> you are correct.  The jars they are filling are the ceremonial washing pots that were in each jewish home.  The symbolism here is that the wine represented Jesus blood that was shed for the remission of sins, and it was replacing the old covenant of ceremonial washing.
> 
> So we have the ceremonial cleansing water being replaced by the blood of our Savior as a foretelling of what was to come.
> 
> I believe this is the hour that Jesus spoke of not coming, not the time of his ministry.  This was the first of the miracles that He performed, and if you noticed, it was after his baptism by John and the dove descended upon him.  It would appear that although Jesus was fully God before the baptism, that there was something endowed to Him at the baptism to signal the start of his ministry.



So what you are saying, correct me if I'm wrong, is that, Jesus'  reply to his mother, "My hour has not come." refers to the sacrifice of the cross and not Jesus' ministry per say.

And therefore He is perhaps saying, " How do you know this concerns me?... because it can only concern me if you know I'm God especially I have not died on the cross and resurrected to prove who I really am?

Or put differently Jesus is asking his mother where, what, why, how do get this trust in me? My hour has not come yet. This reply is sufficient to his mother that by faith she goes from exchanging with her son to telling the servants to do as Jesus tells them. It is sufficient because she knows Jesus by faith as well as he being her son.


---------------

4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

-------------------


Mary knew this about Jesus, and not because of what he said or did, but because of what an angel once had told her, provided she had maintained her faith and perhaps she knew it before and better than anyone else, maybe:

Luke 1:30-34 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


-------------

Maybe....  ideas?


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## NE GA Pappy (Mar 15, 2015)

Gordon, 

Mary had seen the angel and heard it words

She had become pregnant while still a virgin.

She had wise men come from foreign nations to give them some very expensive gifts.  Man, I could talk about Gods provision when you are doing His will about now.

She and Joseph had been instructed to go to Egypt to protect Jesus when he was an infant.

She and Joseph were told by an angel to travel back to Israel when it was safe for the boy.

She had seen him in the temple instructing the rabbis when he was not even 13 yet, and dumbfounding them with His wisdom. 

I don't believe for a minute that Mary ever doubted who Jesus was, and His ministry here.  I don't think anyone who had experienced all that would doubt Him.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 15, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Gordon,
> 
> Mary had seen the angel and heard it words
> 
> ...



Good points. Thanks.


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## Big7 (Mar 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Third verse here. http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=48&bible_chapter=6



Really nothing to be confused about.

The term "brother" did not necessarily mean
biological in those days.

As far as that goes, how many times does a person
greet someone as "brother" or "sister" even today,
especially at church or church functions?

And as to What Is the Immaculate Conception?
Read about that here:

http://catholicism.about.com/od/beliefsteachings/f/Imm_Concept_FAQ.htm

Names her Mother and all. Saint Anne.

It does not mean Mary was conceived
without cooperation of man like Jesus
was.

Might want to point out, many Catholics are confused by this as well. 
The link provided explains some of this.

It is one of the first things I clear
up when It's my time to do my duty role of a Catholic Catechist.

(Yep.. bout every other year)

Mostly the one's I do are for people that want to 
convert from other Christian denominations
or whom have no faith at all and are looking for answers.
Some are in regard to inter faith marriage.
Mothers are required to raise their children Catholic.
That is, if they are a devout and practicing Catholic.

My Father is non denominational Christian so, he had to jump a
few hoops. That's just the way it is. That's another story though.

Take time to read through the link.
You may find some interesting points.

Good luck.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 15, 2015)

Big7 said:


> Really nothing to be confused about.
> 
> The term "brother" did not necessarily mean
> biological in those days.
> ...



Thanks for the lesson. Not that I agree with Mary's immaculate conception but I never knew that is what it meant.

I understand we call each other brothers but in the Mark account of Jesus being the carpenter, It was to identify his family. Why would they mention his mother as Mary and brothers and sisters if they weren't part of his immediate family?

Usually when interfaith couples marry the Protestant converts to Catholic. I guess we aren't as strict in rituals etc. 

Pleas explain a little deeper as to what made Mary's conception immaculate? I read your link but it didn't answer it for my understanding.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks for the lesson. Not that I agree with Mary's immaculate conception but I never knew that is what it meant.
> 
> I understand we call each other brothers but in the Mark account of Jesus being the carpenter, It was to identify his family. Why would they mention his mother as Mary and brothers and sisters if they weren't part of his immediate family?
> 
> ...



ditto.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 15, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Jesus said he could only do what he sees his father doing. Making wine for a party is hardly the work of God.


Hardly the work of God? Changing one physical substance into another physical substance by willing it to be changed? 

He created all physical substance!

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3)

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:16,17)


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## NE GA Pappy (Mar 15, 2015)

the thing about this account that I struggle with is Jesus was making an alcoholic drink for drunks to get drunker.  It runs cross grain with my raising by a tee totaler.  But the facts are that He did make wine, not grape juice, and it was for people that were already drunk.  It makes me say .... hhhmmmmm.


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## Big7 (Mar 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks for the lesson. Not that I agree with Mary's immaculate conception but I never knew that is what it meant.
> 
> I understand we call each other brothers but in the Mark account of Jesus being the carpenter, It was to identify his family. Why would they mention his mother as Mary and brothers and sisters if they weren't part of his immediate family?
> 
> ...





hobbs27 said:


> ditto.



The Immaculate Conception is NOT about Mary,
Mother of God, or the virgin birth of Jesus.  

It's about the Immaculate Conception of Jesus'
mother's mother, Saint Anne. Concieved in the conventional manner, with cooperation of man.

Saint Anne was chosen by God to produce
with cooperation of man, the perfect vessel
to which the St. Gabriel the Archangel had announced to
Mary:

... that she was to become the mother of Our Lord, 
Mary went from Galilee to Judea to visit her kinswoman Elizabeth, soon to be the mother of John the Baptist. This visit is recorded in Luke 1:39-56. Elizabeth greeted Mary with the words, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb."

Again, without cooperation of man.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 15, 2015)

Big7 said:


> The Immaculate Conception is NOT about Mary,
> Mother of God, or the virgin birth of Jesus.
> 
> It's about the Immaculate Conception of Jesus'
> mother's mother, Saint Anne. Concieved in the conventional manner.



wait...what?   I thought I had a small understanding of Catholicism and I know others on here say it was about Mary being conceived without sin. That's what so immaculate...that Mary born of a woman (St Anne who was impregnated by a man) could be sinless. 

I'm confused.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 15, 2015)

Big7 said:


> The Immaculate Conception is NOT about Mary,
> Mother of God, or the virgin birth of Jesus.
> 
> It's about the Immaculate Conception of Jesus'
> ...



Wow yeah, me too. I thought you were saying Mary's conception was immaculate. I checked a few Catholic resources that said Mary's conception was immaculate.
I didn't see any resources stating Mary's mother Saint Anne's conception was the "Immaculate Conception."

If you are correct then you are also correct that Catholics don't even understand. Can you provide a few links?

Also confused.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 15, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> the thing about this account that I struggle with is Jesus was making an alcoholic drink for drunks to get drunker.  It runs cross grain with my raising by a tee totaler.  But the facts are that He did make wine, not grape juice, and it was for people that were already drunk.  It makes me say .... hhhmmmmm.



 It was a special occasion. Lol. Our cultural opinions certainly don't match up to biblical times, or the rest of the world.


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## Big7 (Mar 15, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> wait...what?   I thought I had a small understanding of Catholicism and I know others on here say it was about Mary being conceived without sin. That's what so immaculate...that Mary born of a woman (St Anne who was impregnated by a man) could be sinless.
> 
> I'm confused.



Don't be.

That's the way it is.

Saint Anne's conception is in no more sin than
yo' clillin', with man's (that would be you) cooperation.

Difference is Mary's mother was chosen to be the mother of the Mother of Christ.

You know the differences in various doctrine.
(Mine just happens to be right)

Kinda' like a "Crucifix" (one) fixed to a cross") 
and the Empty Cross.. It is finished.

Both cherished and correct.

The Bible has many conflicts.
That's why we must rely on the Vicar of Christ,
ECF's. etc.. to get us on the right path.
The Bible is not for self interpretation. 

Don't make me get on you again about


1 Corinthians 1:10 New International Version


I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

Or.. in my view. (NAB)

Douay-Rheims Bible:

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment. 

Peace be with you, Bro.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 15, 2015)

I would also assume that if Saint Anne's conception was immaculate, that Mary Mother of Jesus' conception would also be immaculate.
Otherwise Mary would not be conceived immaculate as her Father would make her imperfect. That is with no intervention from God as was the case with Anne.


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## NE GA Pappy (Mar 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> It was a special occasion. Lol. Our cultural opinions certainly don't match up to biblical times, or the rest of the world.




a wedding at that time was a cultural event that may go on for a week.  The entire village was invited and they partayed.  

The whole wedding ceremony is a study in itself.


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## NE GA Pappy (Mar 15, 2015)

I was in St Anne's Church in Jerusalem a couple weeks back. The church is just across from the Pool of Bethesda, outside the old city wall, on the east side of town.  The acoustics in that building is totally awesome.   They certainly knew how to construct a building for sound then.


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## welderguy (Mar 15, 2015)

Big7 said:


> Don't be.
> 
> That's the way it is.
> 
> ...



I perceive we may have a false prophet among us.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 15, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> a wedding at that time was a cultural event that may go on for a week.  The entire village was invited and they partayed.
> 
> The whole wedding ceremony is a study in itself.



Yes it is. And a good one.


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## Big7 (Mar 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would also assume that if Saint Anne's conception was immaculate, that Mary Mother of Jesus' conception would also be immaculate.
> Otherwise Mary would not be conceived immaculate as her Father would make her imperfect. That is with no intervention from God as was the case with Anne.



Art.. I'm going to send you a few PMs.

It's not that hard. 

Hope I can help you understand?

Do you not believe Mary, Mother of God
conceived Him without cooperation of man?

Saint Joseph sure did. 

Do a study of the "Immaculate Conception".


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 15, 2015)

Again, I'm not Catholic but I see a source for some confusion.
Sometimes especially many, many years ago, St. Anne's conception with Mary or Anne conceiving Mary was called "The Conception of Anna." It wasn't referring to Anne's conception but Anne's conception of Mary.
It was just referred that way which was a normal way of describing it but it changed to the way we would describe it now.

The Eastern Christian Church first celebrated a "Feast of the Conception of the Most Holy and All Pure Mother of God" on December 9, perhaps as early as the 5th century in Syria. The original title of the feast was more specifically on Saint Anne, terming it "Eullepsis tes hagias kai theoprometoros Annas" ("The Conception of Saint Anne, the ancestress of God")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feast_of_the_Immaculate_Conception

Only the name changed, not the honor of whom it was given.

This link explains it better:

Today the world rejoices in the conception of Anna, wrought by God. For she bore the One who beyond comprehension conceived the Logos.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=329

It was Anna's conception of Mary. Maybe they should have called it The Conception by St. Anna of the Most Holy Theotokos. Instead of the Conception of St. Anna.

Of course this is the way I comprehend it. Perhaps some Catholics comprehend it this was too.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 15, 2015)

Big7 said:


> Art.. I'm going to send you a few PMs.
> 
> It's not that hard.
> 
> ...



Yes I do. I understand Mary conceived Jesus without the cooperation of a man.
I can even understand that Mary herself, her starting point was an Immaculate Conception.
I don't see or understand anyone saying that Anne's starting point or the beginning of Anne's life was Immaculate. If St. Anne's own conception was immaculate, why was she canonized as a Saint? That's way more of an honor than sainthood. 
She would hold the same relevance as Mary instead of just sainthood.

I would appreciate the PM's, thanks.


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## Big7 (Mar 15, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I perceive we may have a false prophet among us.



Do what?

I'm not from Missouri, but I got my ears on..

Kinda' like Ross Perot.

Show me. 

You can not.. So, you get a Fred S-A-N-F-O-R-D pass. 

Are you certified under water, mr.
welder? 

I am. Get yo' hat and I'll get mine.

Game?... That's what I thought.


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## Israel (Mar 16, 2015)

But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

I can find few places, and one whose life better testifies to the refutation of being the "Mother of God" than the words spoken by this servant "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word..."

Being compassed about by such a great cloud of witnesses precludes me from saying "If Mary were here..." and likewise, by the presence of those in whose fellowship and union she presently rejoices also keeps me from saying she is bothered by it.

She is far too caught up with all that is holy, righteous, and true.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 16, 2015)

Big7 said:


> Don't be.
> 
> That's the way it is.



Okay...good.  I was starting to get confused.



Big7 said:


> The Bible has many conflicts.
> That's why we must rely on the Vicar of Christ,
> ECF's. etc.. to get us on the right path.
> The Bible is not for self interpretation.



I'm fine with using the ECFs....they have plenty of writings that support Protestant beliefs.

Vicar of Christ is a bit bogus imho (as well as scripture's opinion--see Rev 22:18-19)....but we don't have to go down that argument again.  We can agree to disagree.  I know I'll not change your Catholic beliefs and you're not going to change my Protestant beliefs.  We can  and drink a cold one together.



Big7 said:


> Don't make me get on you again about
> 
> 1 Corinthians 1:10
> Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.
> ...



LOL....not the schism thing again   If there be no schisms...and the Pope is the Vicar of Christ...what happened in 1054?  Who's pope is still the Vicar?

So...Protestants have had a few "schisms."  Sure...more than the Catholics.  But if a schism condemns, y'all are just as guilty.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 16, 2015)

I wonder if my grandmother was chosen to be my mother's mother? And in doing so my grandmother was chosen to be my grandmother before I was born.
Not that there was anything immaculate about it other than God doing the choosing.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 16, 2015)

Big7 said:


> It's about the Immaculate Conception of Jesus'
> mother's mother, Saint Anne. Concieved in the conventional manner, with cooperation of man.
> 
> Saint Anne was chosen by God to produce
> ...


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## welderguy (Mar 16, 2015)

If Mary's mother concieved Mary by a man (human), how can sin not be passed on to Mary?
I don't see how that lines up with Romans 5 which says by one man death passed upon all men.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 16, 2015)

welderguy said:


> If Mary's mother concieved Mary by a man (human), how can sin not be passed on to Mary?
> I don't see how that lines up with Romans 5 which says by one man death passed upon all men.



Maybe she was born with the Holy Spirit or God kept her soul pure with divine intervention.

I found this answer:

Volume 1 — Question # 765.If Mary was sinless, she could not have needed redemption! Yet is not Christ the Redeemer of every child of Adam?

In so far as the sin of Adam involved the whole human race in condemnation Mary needed redeeming. But there are two ways of redeeming. 

 God could allow one to be born in sin and then purify the soul by subsequent application of the merits of Christ, or He could, by an anticipation of the merits of Christ, exempt a soul from any actual contraction of original sin. Thus He exempted Mary from any actual inheritance of the sin, and she owes her exemption to the anticipated merits of Christ. In other words, she was redeemed by Christ by prevention rather than by subsequent purification.

http://www.askacatholic.com/_WebPostings/Answers/2012_04APR/2012AprWouldntStAnneHaveToBe.cfm


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 16, 2015)

welderguy said:


> If Mary's mother concieved Mary by a man (human), how can sin not be passed on to Mary?
> I don't see how that lines up with Romans 5 which says by one man death passed upon all men.



I see what you are saying, Jesus had to die to save his mother Mary according to Romans 5.
Using that same scripture, did Jesus have to die to save himself? The man part of himself?

In other words, did one man's(Adam's) death pass upon Jesus? Did Jesus inherit the sinful nature from Mary, if Mary was not sinless? Mary might have been sinless but she had the ability to sin or the inheritance to sin.
Would not Jesus need the ability to sin to make a sacrifice for sin? If not, why was he tempted?
In Jesus there was no sin. He did what Adam couldn't do but he was born a man with a natural Mother. Maybe he needed Mary's sinful nature.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 16, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I see what you are saying, Jesus had to die to save his mother Mary according to Romans 5.
> Using that same scripture, did Jesus have to die to save himself? The man part of himself?
> 
> In other words, did one man's(Adam's) death pass upon Jesus? Did Jesus inherit the sinful nature from Mary, if Mary was not sinless? Mary might have been sinless but she had the ability to sin or the inheritance to sin.
> ...



Jesus was sinless.  He had to be...spotless.  Hebrews talks about Jesus being our perfect sacrifice.  It is also why Satan tempted him.  Satan knew that if he could get Jesus to sin, His death would be for nothing.  

Many believe that the sin nature is passed through to the child through the man.  Therefore, since Adam was not involved in the making of Jesus, the sin nature was not passed down to Him.  Not sure if I believe that or not...but no matter what, Mary was a sinner just like every other human being.  Jesus is/was sinless as He is/was God.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 16, 2015)

I have not read the link, I just know I would never consider Mary without sin. Maybe she should have died for mankind. That is how far out this is


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 16, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> Jesus was sinless.  He had to be...spotless.  Hebrews talks about Jesus being our perfect sacrifice.  It is also why Satan tempted him.  Satan knew that if he could get Jesus to sin, His death would be for nothing.
> 
> Many believe that the sin nature is passed through to the child through the man.  Therefore, since Adam was not involved in the making of Jesus, the sin nature was not passed down to Him.  Not sure if I believe that or not...but no matter what, Mary was a sinner just like every other human being.  Jesus is/was sinless as He is/was God.



I don't understand that Adam was not involved in the making of Jesus? Jesus was from Mary who was from the lineage of David and on back to Adam.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 16, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't understand that Adam was not involved in the making of Jesus? Jesus was from Mary who was from the lineage of David and on back to Adam.



He was....and so was David.  I didn't think I said he wasn't, did I?  

Joseph wasn't really involved in it.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 16, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> He was....and so was David.  I didn't think I said he wasn't, did I?
> 
> Joseph wasn't really involved in it.



I stand corrected, you were just stating what many people say. I read it wrong.


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## Big7 (Mar 16, 2015)

Good post(s).
Art is plainly open on the subject.
 Evident in post #41.

RJ.. Where are we going to get that beer?
Yeah.. I know, I ain't fixing you and you ain't fixing me.
Just funnin' with you on 1 Corinthians 1:10. 
For those that don't know, this has a history
between RJ and I... 

All TRUE Christians believe basically the same thing(s).

I hope Protestants are set for Heaven.
My whole family on my Father's side are Protestant.

He is a fine, Godly and very humble man.
If he don't get there nobody will.
Not just saying that because he is my Father.
Anyone that knows him will tell you the same thing.

BTW.. He is in bad health and could use the power of prayers from all.

Thanks!


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## rjcruiser (Mar 16, 2015)

Big7 said:


> RJ.. Where are we going to get that beer?
> Yeah.. I know, I ain't fixing you and you ain't fixing me.
> Just funnin' with you on 1 Corinthians 1:10.
> For those that don't know, this has a history
> ...



Wait...what????  How is your father Protestant and you're a Catholic?  

And I know...you're  me, and everytime, I'll remind you about 1054 

Prayers sent for your father.

Oh..and about the beer...I do wonder if I've ever met people on here in passing or in just normal life happenstance.  I see people driving down I-20 to their hunting camp...with a gon sticker...or a woody's campfire sticker...and think...I wonder who they are...or if I've ticked them off by calling them out


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 16, 2015)

Big7 said:


> Good post(s).
> 
> BTW.. He is in bad health and could use the power of prayers from all.[/COLOR]
> 
> Thanks!



Praying for you Dad. Hope his health improves.

Could you explain more about Mary's Mother Anne being perfect as you stated earlier;

His Mother was birthed by Her Perfect Mother..
Often confused with "Immaculate Conception"
which was not Mary's conception of Jesus but
her Mother's conception of Mary, the most perfect
vessel to concieve Jesus. 

Then you said this;

The Immaculate Conception is NOT about Mary,
Mother of God, or the virgin birth of Jesus.

It's about the Immaculate Conception of Jesus'
mother's mother, Saint Anne. Concieved in the conventional manner, with cooperation of man.

Saint Anne was chosen by God to produce
with cooperation of man, the perfect vessel
to which the St. Gabriel the Archangel had announced to
Mary.

Could you explain it again. In the first response I get from you, you said the Immaculate conception was Anne's conception of Mary.
Then in your next response you said the Immaculate Conception was not about Mary, that It's about the Immaculate Conception of Jesus' mother's mother, Saint Anne.

Those two accounts are conflicting perhaps in just the way you worded them. 
So whose conception was immaculate, when Anne conceived Mary in Anne's womb or when Anne was conceived in her mother's womb?


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## Big7 (Mar 17, 2015)

Thanks for the prayers folks.

Art..
Here is a little read on what it is and what it is not.

Maybe "nothing to do with Mary" was poor choice of words
on my part. Sorry for any confusuion. As stated, it's confusing even among Catholics. I have to be very carful in the role as Catechist. Especially the Immaculate Conception. Runnung up to that, I'm prepared and have reference material, etc..
This was just a post that I replied to , not at the time thinking it is
more complicated than it really is and I made some assumptions.

Perhaps a better explination can be found here:
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/immaculate-conception-and-assumption

RJ, thats my blue Dodge around I-20 in Warren and to the south in Jefferson county.. Flag me down.
I'll buy the beer.......

Yep.. Mama married a Protestant.
"Technically, you only need permission, not a dispensation, to marry a Protestant Christian".
One could argue that it IS a dispensation, but for this conversation, this will do.
Another one of those things that just "depends".

Little more on that here:

http://www.catholic.com/quickquesti...rements-for-marrying-a-non-catholic-christian

Hope this helps.

Thanks again for the prayers!


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