# Islam, creation, and science



## OrlandoBrent (Oct 23, 2012)

Christians go through varying degrees of contortions to reconcile Gen 1 & 2 with current understanding of science. Some view Gen 1 & 2 as allegorical, and hold to conventional science's understanding of the beginnings of the universe, earth, and life, with some divine guidance along the way. Others believe in a 6000 year old earth and dinosaurs are Satan's way of messing with believers. And everything in between the extremes.

What do Muslims believe? During the dark ages of Christianity, Islam led the world in science and math. Now we see them as fundamental wackos. Most of the Muslims I interact with are PhD engineers and are Muslim by culture and heritage mostly, although I've know a few to observe Ramadan and daily prayers. What does the average Muslim think?


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## gordon 2 (Oct 25, 2012)

Average thoughts of right and wrong? Issues of justice?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 25, 2012)

I can't answer you question but i've often wondered why there aren't any forum members that are Muslim, Hindu, Wicca, etc. I realize most people in Georgia are Christians. We do have a Jewish guy on here from time to time.
Maybe they just don't hunt, fish, camp, or backpack. They might just not be outdoors type people. You would think that the Wiccans would be. 
But then again, would you like to be the only Muslim  on the GON?


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## mtnwoman (Oct 25, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I can't answer you question but i've often wondered why there aren't any forum members that are Muslim, Hindu, Wicca, etc. I realize most people in Georgia are Christians. We do have a Jewish guy on here from time to time.
> Maybe they just don't hunt, fish, camp, or backpack. They might just not be outdoors type people. You would think that the Wiccans would be.
> But then again, would you like to be the only Muslim  on the GON?



Wonder if there are Muslim forums?....bet there are.


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## OrlandoBrent (Oct 25, 2012)

I got a couple of perspectives today. Had a conference in Clearwater and gave a ride back to Orlando to a couple of my colleagues in our research group. They're both from Turkey and are only mildly religious. They said that, at least in Turkey, it's a lot like here. Some from every part of the spectrum. They did point out that the Koran is quite abstract about the creation of man. Something like man was created out of sand and water. So there is not the same level of conflict as here between creationism and evolution. I've only had the patience to read bits and pieces of the Koran and just never ran across this issue before.

And as far as no Muslims on GON...I just don't think the outdoors are a big part of their lives. I'm probably around more Muslims than Christians when I'm not working from home. They do like sports, but none that I know are big on the outdoors. Soccer, cricket (if they're from Pakistan), and I know one that is a Formula 1 and sports car fan. Turkey is a big yachting destination in the eastern Med and of course, horses are big in Arabia, but there's other forums for that stuff.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 25, 2012)

Muslims have as many divisive beliefs as we do. Most of the people I work with are mildly Christian.


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## ted_BSR (Nov 19, 2012)

I work with a Muslim guy. He definetly does NOT do the outdoors.


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## jimineez (Feb 1, 2013)

I thought Turkey was 98% muslim?


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## puddlehunter (Apr 24, 2013)

I don't think a muslim would be very welcome here, and if any members are they don't tell anyone


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## drippin' rock (Apr 24, 2013)

puddlehunter said:


> I don't think a muslim would be very welcome here, and if any members are they don't tell anyone



And that is very telling of the type of people that frequent this forum.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 24, 2013)

puddlehunter said:


> I don't think a muslim would be very welcome here ...



Why not?


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## centerpin fan (Apr 24, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> And that is very telling of the type of people that frequent this forum.



What type of people frequent this forum?


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## mtnwoman (Apr 24, 2013)

Read the biblical story of Jacob and Esau, followed up with bible scholars viewpoints of that and you'll understand how muslumism began. 

Esau was kicked out of the 'kingdom'...he took with him the Torah, which is basically what muslims believe...they were lead down the wrong path and never get to Jesus...they are stuck in the OT. Jacob led his flock to the promised land and that is us'ns.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 27, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Read the biblical story of Jacob and Esau, followed up with bible scholars viewpoints of that and you'll understand how muslumism began.
> 
> Esau was kicked out of the 'kingdom'...he took with him the Torah, which is basically what muslims believe...they were lead down the wrong path and never get to Jesus...they are stuck in the OT. Jacob led his flock to the promised land and that is us'ns.



Good observation. Like the jews and some christians they are still a people of an eye for an eye--people who have hatred for the infidel--or each other... As you say mtnwoman--" and never get to Jesus." They are "stuck". In them the law is a curse.


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## drippin' rock (May 6, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> What type of people frequent this forum?



Are you being deliberately obtuse?


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## drippin' rock (May 6, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Good observation. Like the jews and some christians they are still a people of an eye for an eye--people who have hatred for the infidel--or each other... As you say mtnwoman--" and never get to Jesus." They are "stuck". In them the law is a curse.



I just read recently of Gengis Khan's decimation of the Islamic world in the 1200s.  He burnt Bagdad and other cities to the ground and killed hundreds of thousands of people.  Bagdad's science, art, and culture is said to have rivaled ancient Greece.   I wonder if that had anything to do with them being behind everyone else from that moment on?


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## centerpin fan (May 6, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Are you being deliberately obtuse?



No, I just asked a simple question.  You referred to:



drippin' rock said:


> ... the type of people that frequent this forum.



What type of people frequent this forum?


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## swampstalker24 (May 6, 2013)

I'm not sure what muslims believe about science vs the word of God.  But what I can say is that the muslim folks that I have met and come to know pretty well are all really good people and hard working.  Now, Im not saying that all are that way, but they do have bad apples in the bunch just like any other religion does.  I worked with an african fella one time who was a muslim, and he was one of the nicest, well mannored, hardworking, and honest person I have ever met.  He was also thankful for everything he had and every opportunity given to him.  He always had a smile on his face and never complained, even when he had reason to.  He also enjoyed fishing!


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## Artfuldodger (May 7, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> I just read recently of Gengis Khan's decimation of the Islamic world in the 1200s.  He burnt Bagdad and other cities to the ground and killed hundreds of thousands of people.  Bagdad's science, art, and culture is said to have rivaled ancient Greece.   I wonder if that had anything to do with them being behind everyone else from that moment on?



That could have put a damper on their way of living. Muslims are on their way to regaining their foothold in the Middle East. Here is a link brought up on another discussion:
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=753004


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## drippin' rock (May 7, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> No, I just asked a simple question.  You referred to:
> 
> 
> 
> What type of people frequent this forum?



There are good, tolerant people that come to this forum.  But I believe that there are enough "We need to turn that place to glass" folks, and "By gawd everybody but us is wrong" folks, and the "I'm sure you are a great person, but you are still going to he!!" folks, that if a person was to come here and announce that they were Muslim, the silence would be deafening.


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## centerpin fan (May 7, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> There are good, tolerant people that come to this forum.  But I believe that there are enough "We need to turn that place to glass" folks, and "By gawd everybody but us is wrong" folks, and the "I'm sure you are a great person, but you are still going to he!!" folks ...



There might be one person in the Spiritual forum that fits that description.




drippin' rock said:


> ... if a person was to come here and announce that they were Muslim, the silence would be deafening.





What would the appropriate response be?  My response to that would be ... "OK."


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## drippin' rock (May 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> There might be one person in the Spiritual forum that fits that description.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Ok.


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## gordon 2 (May 11, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> I just read recently of Gengis Khan's decimation of the Islamic world in the 1200s.  He burnt Bagdad and other cities to the ground and killed hundreds of thousands of people.  Bagdad's science, art, and culture is said to have rivaled ancient Greece.   I wonder if that had anything to do with them being behind everyone else from that moment on?



My understanding is that the fundamentalist and conservatives (and perhaps even that they were the minority) rubbed out the liberals... especially scolars, scientists and thinkers....etc... before or at this time...


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## StriperAddict (May 25, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> My understanding is that the fundamentalist and conservatives (and perhaps even that they were the minority) _*rubbed out the liberals*_... especially scolars, scientists and thinkers....etc... before or at this time...



If this was the PF I'd ask then *why *is the socialist/liberal mindset so prolific here and in Europe?


But no worries, I got this one...


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## Redticker (May 26, 2013)

You have one, born and raised in Georgia. Mainly muslim because of family, you probably know more about the Koran then I do. But I'm definitely no stranger to the outdoors.


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## Artfuldodger (May 26, 2013)

Redticker said:


> You have one, born and raised in Georgia. Mainly muslim because of family, you probably know more about the Koran then I do. But I'm definitely no stranger to the outdoors.



Interesting, thanks for responding, I guess you don't fit the stereotype as supposedly Muslims don't do the outdoors. My Dad knew a guy who sold expensive shotguns mostly to Muslims. Although not hunting at least a related hobby.


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## GunnSmokeer (Oct 17, 2015)

So what "is" the Muslim view on creation?  Does the koran have anything like Genesis' first chapters?

Why is it that only protestant Christians get invited to debate atheists on creation-vs.-evolution?  What about Jews and Muslims?  What about any other religion that has a story about a God or gods creating the world and the people in it, rather than having everything happen in a happy accident following a big bang and some warm pond scum?


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## Matthew6 (Oct 27, 2015)

OrlandoBrent said:


> I got a couple of perspectives today. Had a conference in Clearwater and gave a ride back to Orlando to a couple of my colleagues in our research group. They're both from Turkey and are only mildly religious. They said that, at least in Turkey, it's a lot like here. Some from every part of the spectrum. They did point out that the Koran is quite abstract about the creation of man. Something like man was created out of sand and water. So there is not the same level of conflict as here between creationism and evolution. I've only had the patience to read bits and pieces of the Koran and just never ran across this issue before.
> 
> And as far as no Muslims on GON...I just don't think the outdoors are a big part of their lives. I'm probably around more Muslims than Christians when I'm not working from home. They do like sports, but none that I know are big on the outdoors. Soccer, cricket (if they're from Pakistan), and I know one that is a Formula 1 and sports car fan. Turkey is a big yachting destination in the eastern Med and of course, horses are big in Arabia, but there's other forums for that stuff.


Turks love soccer. The country varies by region and is very conservative and religious. You will get killed if you mess with their women in the southeast part of the country without a formal introduction  and follow strict courting rituals which always include an escort. Istanbul is more European. Family is a huge part of the culture. Women are still marginalized in most aspects. Most Turkish men are lazy and only the poor male Turks work hard at physical jobs. Most farm work is done by women. The men smoke and drink tea as often as they can with their friends. Personal hygiene is poor.  Ride public transportation and you will understand. The body odor smell is horrible. They wear alot of cologne. The food is great. Dont drink the water or you will get Shigella( a really bad stomach infection), and you wish you were dead. ). I lived there 4 years as an air force officer in the 80s. These are just a few of my most powerful memories. Good people, with a corrupt govt. , and a poor nato partner until they need you.


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## DirtyBird (Nov 27, 2015)

Muslim here. I'll get back to y'all later on this topic.  Hope everyone had a great thanksgiving!!


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## DirtyBird (Nov 27, 2015)

My wife and I are Muslim and I always tell her the only other state I would live in is Colorado. I love the outdoors and everything that is offered with it. God's creation is breathtaking.

I am a practicing Muslim and the belief is that God created the heavens and earth. He says "be it", and it will be. There is no science behind the creation of everyone and everything. No big bang or anything of the sort.

What Matthew6 is referring to is mostly a cultural thing. An unfortunate thing that has occurred is many Middle Eastern countries tailor religion to culture. If the Quran and teaching of the Prophet (pbuh) were followed correctly, everyone would see the woman's position in the religion. Unfortunately as I stated before, culture in my opinion has skewed people's thoughts on Islam.

If anyone has any questions on Islam please do not hesitate to drop me a private message. Would love to give anyone who has questions some insight as opposed to what is being thrown on TV. I don't want the .003% of the so called "Muslims" to define the remainder of us!


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> My wife and I are Muslim and I always tell her the only other state I would live in is Colorado. I love the outdoors and everything that is offered with it. God's creation is breathtaking.
> 
> I am a practicing Muslim and the belief is that God created the heavens and earth. He says "be it", and it will be. There is no science behind the creation of everyone and everything. No big bang or anything of the sort.
> 
> ...



In relation to Colorado I was talking to a friend of my daughter who lives in Utah. He said it was like living on Mars with all of the rocks, etc.
He liked being able to connect with nature within the vast nothingness. I guess each state offers it's own Nirvana.

Were you born in America? In relation to the .003% of the so called "Muslims" do you see any parallels with the .003% of the so called "Christians" either now or in our history? Were Christians ever similar to the .003% of the so called "Muslims?" I'm wondering if Christianity or the people who practice it have advanced faster in relations to peace, love, and forgiveness than today's Muslims.

Maybe Christian nations have advanced faster in relation to humans rights and equal rights except we as religions agree on homosexuality. 
Christianity from our apostle Paul forward doesn't see a difference between the Jew and Gentile as we are now in the age of grace. Most Christians have moved beyond law keeping so we don't have as many rituals as Muslims and Jews. 
One more thing that would help in us not believing the .003% represents all would be if the 99.097%  let us know that they don't represent you.


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## ambush80 (Nov 28, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> My wife and I are Muslim and I always tell her the only other state I would live in is Colorado. I love the outdoors and everything that is offered with it. God's creation is breathtaking.
> 
> I am a practicing Muslim and the belief is that God created the heavens and earth. He says "be it", and it will be. There is no science behind the creation of everyone and everything. No big bang or anything of the sort.
> 
> ...



Rational, moderate Muslims need to be much more vocal.  I applaud you.  My sister in law is a secular Muslim from Turkey.  She lives in Canada where they aren't as anti-Muslim as they are here in the US, particularly the South.

I wish you would try to enlighten some of the people in the Political Forum.


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## drippin' rock (Nov 30, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Rational, moderate Muslims need to be much more vocal.  I applaud you.  My sister in law is a secular Muslim from Turkey.  She lives in Canada where they aren't as anti-Muslim as they are here in the US, particularly the South.
> 
> I wish you would try to enlighten some of the people in the Political Forum.



How many folks do you think he would enlighten?  I say none that aren't already so.


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## ambush80 (Nov 30, 2015)

drippin' rock said:


> How many folks do you think he would enlighten?  I say none that aren't already so.



You never know.  There are alot of viewers who don't participate in the discussions.


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## drippin' rock (Nov 30, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> You never know.  There are alot of viewers who don't participate in the discussions.



You're right. I was thinking of the more outspoken individuals.


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## JB0704 (Nov 30, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> My wife and I are Muslim and I always tell her the only other state I would live in is Colorado. I love the outdoors and everything that is offered with it. God's creation is breathtaking.
> 
> I am a practicing Muslim and the belief is that God created the heavens and earth. He says "be it", and it will be. There is no science behind the creation of everyone and everything. No big bang or anything of the sort.
> 
> ...



Do you ever read along in the AAA forum?  IT would be interesting to get another perspective in there from time to time.


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## ambush80 (Dec 1, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> Do you ever read along in the AAA forum?  IT would be interesting to get another perspective in there from time to time.




Sure would.


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## DirtyBird (Dec 1, 2015)

I rarely go onto the AAA forum. I usually am giving my perspective to people face to face rather than online. 

I agree with you on being more vocal. What is unfortunate is that we don't get as much press as those waiving around flags and shooting guns in the air. That's the nature of the beast these days.

Artfuldodger, I was born and raised in Atlanta. Parents migrated over in 1972. In regards to the .003% parallel to Christians or other religions, there has been a time and/or place when it has occurred. Maybe one example can be The KKK? What's your opinion?

One of the most important ideas in Islam is peace, love, and forgiveness. What has gotten in the way here is culture or middle eastern governments. People follow culture more than the purity of the religion and twist it to their benefit. Such a shame.

Would you also be kind enough to enlighten me on your last sentence regarding representations? Thanks!


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## ambush80 (Dec 1, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> I rarely go onto the AAA forum. I usually am giving my perspective to people face to face rather than online.
> 
> I agree with you on being more vocal. What is unfortunate is that we don't get as much press as those waiving around flags and shooting guns in the air. That's the nature of the beast these days.
> 
> ...



Are you familiar with Maajid Nawaz?  I think he is a great person and Muslims like him need to do what they can to make their voices heard.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 1, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> One of the most important ideas in Islam is peace, love, and forgiveness. What has gotten in the way here is culture or middle eastern governments. People follow culture more than the purity of the religion and twist it to their benefit. Such a shame.



How do you account for Americans who radicalize and join the jihadis?

What cultural issues "get in the way"?


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## DirtyBird (Dec 1, 2015)

Yes I am familiar with him and I do follow what he discusses. Moderation is the key.

I believe those who join the extremists are brainwashed. Technology these days allows for anyone to reach out to anyone so easily. I would say that those who join really have no set foundation in their own lives and these groups promise something that appeals to them. Not sure what it is, but apparently it works. 

I would like to also point out that the correct definition for jihad is to battle the struggle within one's self. A spiritual struggle against thoughts or sins.

As for cultural issues, I can go on and on. One example is the pre arranged marriage and how the girl has no say. That is a strict culture thing. According to Islam and teachings, the girl has to approve of a suitor. Women's rights in Islam are pretty high up there. If they wanted to, they could charge their husband for cooking a meal. 

Let me know if there are any other questions and I will try to answer them!


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## centerpin fan (Dec 1, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> Yes I am familiar with him and I do follow what he discusses. Moderation is the key.
> 
> I believe those who join the extremists are brainwashed. Technology these days allows for anyone to reach out to anyone so easily. I would say that those who join really have no set foundation in their own lives and these groups promise something that appeals to them. Not sure what it is, but apparently it works.
> 
> ...



Would you characterize Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorist groups?


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## DirtyBird (Dec 1, 2015)

I do consider them terrorist groups as they have killed innocent people with no seen remorse. We can also say the armed forces of Israel are a terrorist group due to the same actions to people in Palestine. 

If we treated each other the way we wanted to be treated all this probably wouldn't be going on at such a high rate. It really is a shame.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 1, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> We can also say the armed forces of Israel are a terrorist group due to the same actions to people in Palestine.



You started out well, but you lost me there.


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## DirtyBird (Dec 1, 2015)

No worries man. I'll give you an example. At border checkpoints into Israel/Palestine the armed forces would obviously look at your documents. If you were of one origin, no questions asked. If you were of the other, you were treated in a horrible manner. Literally saw armed members kicking civilians to move them aside for others to go through.

The fear on some of the kids faces made my stomach churn. Wouldn't that be considered terrorizing innocents? 

On a side note, you're Avatar quote made me laugh!


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## centerpin fan (Dec 1, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> At border checkpoints into Israel/Palestine ...



No such country.  There is only Israel.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 1, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> No worries man. I'll give you an example. At border checkpoints into Israel/Palestine the armed forces would obviously look at your documents. If you were of one origin, no questions asked. If you were of the other, you were treated in a horrible manner. Literally saw armed members kicking civilians to move them aside for others to go through.
> 
> The fear on some of the kids faces made my stomach churn. Wouldn't that be considered terrorizing innocents?



The Israelis have good reason to treat some groups differently.  Some groups have a history of walking in with a suicide vest.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 1, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> On a side note, you're Avatar quote made me laugh!



I'm glad I'm not the only one so easily amused.


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## DirtyBird (Dec 1, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> The Israelis have good reason to treat some groups differently.  Some groups have a history of walking in with a suicide vest.



Couldn't that apply the other way around as well? With Israel's "precise" missile launches?


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## DirtyBird (Dec 1, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> No such country.  There is only Israel.



Everyone is entitled to their opinion.


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## DirtyBird (Dec 1, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one so easily amused.



Yeah it's rediculous how easily amused I am. The wife sometimes looks at me and just shakes her head. Nothing wrong with cheap entertainment


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## centerpin fan (Dec 1, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> Everyone is entitled to their opinion.



It's fact, not opinion.


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## DirtyBird (Dec 1, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> It's fact, not opinion.



Where did you get the fact from?


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## centerpin fan (Dec 1, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> Couldn't that apply the other way around as well? With Israel's "precise" missile launches?



Israel shows remarkable restraint in their military responses.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 1, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> Where did you get the fact from?



Any map of the Mideast not produced by Hamas.


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## DirtyBird (Dec 1, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> Israel shows remarkable restraint in their military responses.



I agree 100%. They could make the place barren. On the other hand there have been many questionable strikes on supposed "militant" strongholds.


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## DirtyBird (Dec 1, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> Any map of the Mideast not produced by Hamas.



Not sure Hamas is good at cartography. World would have one name on it....Hamas.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 1, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> I agree 100%. They could make the place barren. On the other hand there have been many questionable strikes on supposed "militant" strongholds.



On another GON forum, a member recently wrote:  if the Palestinians laid down their arms, you'd have peace.  If the Israelis laid down their arms, you'd have genocide.

Agree or disagree?


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## DirtyBird (Dec 1, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> On another GON forum, a member recently wrote:  if the Palestinians laid down their arms, you'd have peace.  If the Israelis laid down their arms, you'd have genocide.
> 
> Agree or disagree?



That's a good question and not sure how to answer that right now.

I do know if the Palestinians did lay down their arms, they would be systematically removed from their homes with new settlements. If Israel laid down its arms, the extremist groups would take advantage of it. 

It's unfortunately a fight that will continue for God knows how long. I personally don't see an end to it in my lifetime.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 2, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> I rarely go onto the AAA forum. I usually am giving my perspective to people face to face rather than online.
> 
> I agree with you on being more vocal. What is unfortunate is that we don't get as much press as those waiving around flags and shooting guns in the air. That's the nature of the beast these days.
> 
> ...



Concerning the action of past Christians. Some have used Christianity as an excuse for there country to expand by taking the land of others. I see many world problems that are caused from expansion of other countries, Christian or other. Spreading the Gospel is different than Imperialism.
In this regard I think many Christian nations have learned from their past. They don't burn witches. Most Christians  are more acceptable of other religions than they were in the past. Most Christians have moved beyond the Legalism of years past into a more grace type of salvation. This is a plus as they learn not to judge people and move away from government laws based on Christianity. Christians once considered women as not equal with men. Using the Bible they kept women from being teachers of men. This religious Law moved into their society.
Forgiveness is also a big part of Christianity. I too see many differences in Christianity taught by our Apostle Paul than the Christianity that guided or guides our government.
It's almost like two different types of Christians. The Spiritual Christians and the Political Christians. Perhaps Islam is divided like this.

Regarding representation, if it is only a small group that is radical, the majority or 99% of the other such as yourself need to speak out against the radicals. We don't feel that as a group the majority has done this.
I did see a group of Muslims protesting the violence of other Muslims in Atlanta a few years back.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 2, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> That's a good question and not sure how to answer that right now.
> 
> I do know if the Palestinians did lay down their arms, they would be systematically removed from their homes with new settlements. If Israel laid down its arms, the extremist groups would take advantage of it.
> 
> It's unfortunately a fight that will continue for God knows how long. I personally don't see an end to it in my lifetime.



Not that I'm an expert on Middle East affairs but I'm going to have to side with Israel in this. They show pretty good restraint. You can only throw so many rocks at a guy with a gun before he's had enough and shoots back. 
This is related back to land and taking other people's land. I do wish the Palestinians had all they  has and the Jews had all they had. There is a Christian concept called Zionism in which in order for the Christian Bible to be fulfilled, we must help Israel regain all of the land it originally had.  Strange concept believing God needs help in making his prophesy come true.
Many Christians do see the prophesy of God restoring Israel but not to the point of Zionism or taking land. 
Others see Israel in our Bible as the Church and not a nation at all. I'll admit it's all quite confusing.
We've has a few discussion on the Political forum in regards to Israel and Palestine. 
I feel I'm pretty good to be open minded enough to seeing all views. 
Thanks for joining in as I think you might be the first Muslim to post in regards to religion.

Would you say that most Muslims in the US are Capitalists or Socialists? Hey we might have more in common than we know. Most Americans like Capitalism no matter what nationality.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 2, 2015)

Fear of Imperialism. Many Americans fear that Muslims might be Imperialists and are trying to take over the US for Allah. Could you touch on this or cast those fears aside?
We don't want a Muslim nation or group to gather us all up and put us on a reservation or kill us.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 2, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> I agree 100%. They could make the place barren. On the other hand there have been many questionable strikes on supposed "militant" strongholds.



What targets do you see them hitting? Settlements?

Here is a link we had on the radicals in Christianity wanting to help God bring forth his prophesy by expanding Israels borders. We all see it differently among ourselves. It was mentioned that radical Christians aren't beheading people. 
It was a good discussion on the facets of Zionism.

I'm not sure if the present country of Israel is the same Israel that was in the Bible. I'm not even sure who the correct people who God calls Jews are. Maybe it's not the group that makes up present Israel. It could be that Israel is now the Church. The lost Jews could now be Gentiles due to breeding with Gentiles while they were lost. Maybe Gentiles are now Jews. In God's eyes there are no Jews or Gentiles concerning salvation. I'm not sure if one day God will save all of the Jews as Paul says he will in Romans 11. If he will  and does, I'm pretty sure he doesn't need my help rounding them up.

Link to discussion;
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=834692&highlight=zionism


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## DirtyBird (Dec 3, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Concerning the action of past Christians. Some have used Christianity as an excuse for there country to expand by taking the land of others. I see many world problems that are caused from expansion of other countries, Christian or other. Spreading the Gospel is different than Imperialism.
> In this regard I think many Christian nations have learned from their past. They don't burn witches. Most Christians  are more acceptable of other religions than they were in the past. Most Christians have moved beyond the Legalism of years past into a more grace type of salvation. This is a plus as they learn not to judge people and move away from government laws based on Christianity. Christians once considered women as not equal with men. Using the Bible they kept women from being teachers of men. This religious Law moved into their society.
> Forgiveness is also a big part of Christianity. I too see many differences in Christianity taught by our Apostle Paul than the Christianity that guided or guides our government.
> It's almost like two different types of Christians. The Spiritual Christians and the Political Christians. Perhaps Islam is divided like this.
> ...



I agree with you 100% in regards to speaking out. We really do need to do more of this. Many of my Muslim friends will discuss issues with one another but I am always on them telling them to let non-Muslims know what the majority of us really are.

We know what we are but people on the outside looking in do not. Those are the people we need to sit down with and talk to. Let them know who we really are!


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## DirtyBird (Dec 3, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Fear of Imperialism. Many Americans fear that Muslims might be Imperialists and are trying to take over the US for Allah. Could you touch on this or cast those fears aside?
> We don't want a Muslim nation or group to gather us all up and put us on a reservation or kill us.



This fear should be squashed and thrown aside. We are no more different than anyone else in America. All the Muslims I have met over my life are no more different than you and me. Work, hang out, play sports, etc.. Muslim's don't want to kill. We have the upmost respect for living creatures. A verse in the Quran says "to kill one human is as if you have killed the entire race."


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## 660griz (Dec 4, 2015)

DirtyBird said:


> A verse in the Quran says "to kill one human is as if you have killed the entire race."



Awesome. What about these?
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

How do you differentiate the violent passages from the peaceful ones? For instance, Christianity says that the Old Testament is no longer followed. Jesus gave a new way.
How do Muslims rationalize the violent passages?
"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" 

Really curious.

One more thing. According to the Quran, is it o.k. to lie to infidels in order to gain their trust?


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## DirtyBird (Dec 4, 2015)

660griz said:


> Awesome. What about these?
> http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
> 
> How do you differentiate the violent passages from the peaceful ones? For instance, Christianity says that the Old Testament is no longer followed. Jesus gave a new way.
> ...



I would have to read the verses around those to gain full context. I have seen these verses singled out before but the context of it would probably be fully understandable if someone read more than that verse. 

Also I have never heard that to gain trust it would be OK to lie. Interesting.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2015)

Islam and Judaism are both works based religions. They both live by religious law. Christianity is based on salvation that came in the form of God's grace. 
This means that we don't have to abide by religious rules and protocol to gain salvation from our God.
We don't have to prove we are worthy of Heaven. Now at one time before Christ we were as they. We were cursed by the law as they.

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole."

Until Allah grants them immunity from this curse they have no choice but to gain his favor by actions instead of a reprieve for the curse of his Law.


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