# God’s Got This



## Baroque Brass (Mar 15, 2020)

Regarding the Corona scare, the religious folks are quoting scripture and saying things like, “Don’t worry, God’s got this, God is in control”, and my favorite so far, “God is watching our reaction to this.” What does that last one even mean? If god is truly in control, does he want “his children” to become sick and die? Why doesn’t he just wipe out the virus?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 15, 2020)

> Why doesn’t he just wipe out the virus?


I call it selective reasoning.
God has the power to fix it so obviously when it passes he "got this/is in control/was responsible for its passing/saved us all.
So why did he let it happen to begin with?
Apparently to teach us a lesson or he has stock in toilet paper or whatever excuse can be thought of.


> does he want “his children” to become sick and die?


If he exists, Im not even going to attempt to claim to know his thoughts/reasoning but I guess a virus is better than drowning the world.
By the way, I dont believe God is responsible for starting or stopping anything.
Its man's ability to selectively reason based on what they/we want to believe.


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## hopper (Mar 15, 2020)

God for many is more of an internal or personal beacon, guide or source of power. It's not really what God is doing to everyone but how with his power you are reacting to everyone or everything that brings certain results.
Now there is certainly nothing wrong with the statements from the original post because that's their belief and it ain't my job to dictate their belief. If I dont believe in God or other people's belief I just move on, I dont need to waist time trying to disprove other people when it comes to those matters.


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 15, 2020)

This morning, my neighbor that would normally be at church, said this is all in God’s plan. Trying to understand that one, too.


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## bullethead (Mar 15, 2020)

hopper said:


> God for many is more of an internal or personal beacon, guide or source of power. It's not really what God is doing to everyone but how with his power you are reacting to everyone or everything that brings certain results.
> Now there is certainly nothing wrong with the statements from the original post because that's their belief and it ain't my job to dictate their belief. If you dont believe in God or other people's belief just move on, you dont need to waist time trying to disprove other people when it comes to those matters.


Well, this IS the AAA forum. We stay away from the Pro religion forums with these thoughts outloud down here.


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## hopper (Mar 15, 2020)

Barouque Brass said:


> This morning, my neighbor that would normally be at church, said this is all in God’s plan. Trying to understand that one, too.


Think it's just people trying to make sense of things.


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## hopper (Mar 15, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Well, this IS the AAA forum. We stay away from the Pro religion forums with these thoughts outloud down here.


I'm a little slow not sure I get what your laying down.


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## welderguy (Mar 15, 2020)

Why are so many afraid of dying?


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## Spotlite (Mar 15, 2020)

Barouque Brass said:


> Regarding the Corona scare, the religious folks are quoting scripture and saying things like, “Don’t worry, God’s got this, God is in control”, and my favorite so far, “God is watching our reaction to this.” What does that last one even mean? If god is truly in control, does he want “his children” to become sick and die? Why doesn’t he just wipe out the virus?





Barouque Brass said:


> Regarding the Corona scare, SOME religious folks are quoting scripture and saying things like, “Don’t worry, God’s got this, God is in control”, and my favorite so far, “God is watching our reaction to this.” What does that last one even mean? If god is truly in control, does he want “his children” to become sick and die? Why doesn’t he just wipe out the virus?


FIFY......our services are proceeding as usual and the Coronavirus is not even a topic of concern......


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## WaltL1 (Mar 15, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Why are so many afraid of dying?


Preferring to live doesn't necessarily = afraid to die.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 15, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> FIFY......our services are proceeding as usual and the Coronavirus is not even a topic of concern......


Thats really brave.
Or really smart.
Or really stupid.
Time will tell.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 15, 2020)




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## Spotlite (Mar 15, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> Thats really brave.
> Or really smart.
> Or really stupid.
> Time will tell.


Individual should determine if they should attend - just as in school / work.
If the church shuts the doors over the Coronavirus, flu, a shooting, etc, what are they going to do in a time of real persecution?


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## bullethead (Mar 15, 2020)

hopper said:


> I'm a little slow not sure I get what your laying down.





hopper said:


> . If you dont believe in God or other people's belief just move on, you dont need to waist time trying to disprove other people when it comes to those matters.



This is the area where non believers talk about such things.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 15, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Individual should determine if they should attend - just as in school / work.
> If the church shuts the doors over the Coronavirus, flu, a shooting, etc, what are they going to do in a time of real persecution?


Yep its a tough call.
I can come up with reasons a church should cancel services and I can come up with reasons a church should do everything they possibly can to continue to hold services in times like these.


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## hopper (Mar 15, 2020)

bullethead said:


> This is the area where non believers talk about such things.


Gottcha! This is were we non believers point out how ridiculous all those silly believers are.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 16, 2020)

hopper said:


> Gottcha! This is were we non believers point out how ridiculous all those silly believers are.


Not accurate ^
This is where believers and non-believers willingly and voluntarily debate/discuss their belief or non-belief.
Bullet's point is that we A/As don't go on the other religious subforums to debate/discuss/argue folks beliefs. Remember the third A in A/A/A is Apologetics.


> Apologetics is the religious discipline of defending religious doctrines through systematic argumentation and discourse.


We stick to this one. This is the subforum created for that purpose.


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## bullethead (Mar 16, 2020)

hopper said:


> Gottcha! This is were we non believers point out how ridiculous all those silly believers are.


We invite discussion and give a chance for believers and non to participate and clear the air if possible.
Truth,  and especially Ultimate Truth should not be able to be questioned and could not be difficult to defend if in fact True...
Don't you agree?

If believers come across as silly in the process...well.....


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## hopper (Mar 16, 2020)

bullethead said:


> We invite discussion and give a chance for believers and non to participate and clear the air if possible.
> Truth,  and especially Ultimate Truth should not be able to be questioned and could not be difficult to defend if in fact True...
> Don't you agree?


Thanks. I think Its clear. I re read my first post and see how it came across. I edited it to just include "I" not "you"  it was only my opinion.  The other post was a cross between me mis understanding and just kidding around. Didnt mean to offend anyone.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 16, 2020)

bullethead said:


> We invite discussion and give a chance for believers and non to participate and clear the air if possible.
> Truth,  and especially Ultimate Truth should not be able to be questioned and could not be difficult to defend if in fact True...
> Don't you agree?
> 
> If believers come across as silly in the process...well.....


You just couldn't resist throwing that jab could ya?


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## hopper (Mar 16, 2020)

bullethead said:


> We invite discussion and give a chance for believers and non to participate and clear the air if possible.
> Truth,  and especially Ultimate Truth should not be able to be questioned and could not be difficult to defend if in fact True...
> Don't you agree?
> 
> If believers come across as silly in the process...well.....


I do agree But Ultimate truth and in my opinion percieved truth or the unexplained are two different models. I respect both as long as it does not negatively affect me. And yes it sometimes does appear a bit Silly


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 16, 2020)

Like most who post here, I’m genuinely interested in opinions and debate from both sides of the fence. Maybe there will one day be the argument that makes me see what the believers see. I try to not view religious beliefs as silly, well, with the possible exception of talking snakes and donkeys.


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## bullethead (Mar 16, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> You just couldn't resist throwing that jab could ya?


I wasn't the one who described believers as being silly..i just expounded upon it.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 16, 2020)

Barouque Brass said:


> Regarding the Corona scare, the religious folks are quoting scripture and saying things like, “Don’t worry, God’s got this, God is in control”, and my favorite so far, “God is watching our reaction to this.” What does that last one even mean? If god is truly in control, does he want “his children” to become sick and die? Why doesn’t he just wipe out the virus?



You can't understand it.  Even many believers can't understand it; the purpose of pain and suffering.  I wrestled with it for years.  Now I know, but first must come belief:b elief and to a large part, trust. Both precede understanding this.  It comes down to this:  God is either everything, or he's nothing (doesn't exist).  Unless one can concede that he is indeed everything and trust him completely with EVERYTHING, then he will be NOTHING, no matter how much faith one proposes to have in him.  Trust me on this,  it didn't come easy for me to grasp this, even as a long time "believer."


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## 660griz (Mar 16, 2020)

Barouque Brass said:


> Why doesn’t he just wipe out the virus?


Why did he create the virus to begin with?


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## 660griz (Mar 16, 2020)

welderguy said:


> Why are so many religious folks afraid of dying?


Fixed it for you. For us Atheist, this is all we have. Although, as I get older, the less I worry about it.


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 16, 2020)

660griz said:


> Fixed it for you. For us Atheist, this is all we have. Although, as I get older, the less I worry about it.


Can’t say that I fear dying, maybe if death was imminent I might be scared. My wife fears for what will happen to my soul when I’m dead. I think I’ll be buried and that’ll be the end of it.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You can't understand it.  Even many believers can't understand it; the purpose of pain and suffering.  I wrestled with it for years.  Now I know, but first must come belief:b elief and to a large part, trust. Both precede understanding this.  It comes down to this:  God is either everything, or he's nothing (doesn't exist).  Unless one can concede that he is indeed everything and trust him completely with EVERYTHING, then he will be NOTHING, no matter how much faith one proposes to have in him.  Trust me on this,  it didn't come easy for me to grasp this, even as a long time "believer."





> It comes down to this:  God is either everything, or he's nothing (doesn't exist).


The 3rd option is a god does exist but its nothing like you have been told it is.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2020)

660griz said:


> Why did he create the virus to begin with?


Apparently this omni-everything god can't get its point across without using pain and suffering in its lesson plan.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 17, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> The 3rd option is a god does exist but its nothing like you have been told it is.



Walt, For years I knew all ABOUT God.  I could blather on for days......and did, quiet frequently.    Now I KNOW him personally.  I speak to him.  He speaks to my heart.  I see his work daily in mine and others lives, so what I speak of isn't necessarily what I had come to believe all my life.  It's based on personal experience over mostly what has happened over the last year.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 17, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> Apparently this omni-everything god can't get its point across without using pain and suffering in its lesson plan.



Let me ask you this.  Is the purpose of acute (non-chronic) physical pain a good thing or a bad thing?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Walt, For years I knew all ABOUT God.  I could blather on for days......and did, quiet frequently.    Now I KNOW him personally.  I speak to him.  He speaks to my heart.  I see his work daily in mine and others lives, so what I speak of isn't necessarily what I had come to believe all my life.  It's based on personal experience over mostly what has happened over the last year.


I'm not going to question/challenge your personal experience so lets put that aside for now.
These 2 statements....


> For years I knew all ABOUT God.





> so what I speak of isn't necessarily what I had come to believe all my life.


….. support the 3rd option. It doesn't prove the 3rd option, it just leans toward the 3rd option.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Let me ask you this.  Is the purpose of acute (non-chronic) physical pain a good thing or a bad thing?


Your question and the answer to your question has zero to do with the point that an omni-everything god either cant or wont teach without using pain and suffering in its lesson plan.
Omni-everything means he could make us completely understand with a thought or a waggle of his finger or wiggle of his nose or.......


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## 660griz (Mar 17, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> Your question and the answer to your question has zero to do with the point that an omni-everything god either cant or wont teach without using pain and suffering in its lesson plan.
> Omni-everything means he could make us completely understand with a thought or a waggle of his finger or wiggle of his nose or.......


Many church services canceled due to this virus. I think that speaks volumes about the God and the congregation.


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## Israel (Mar 17, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> Your question and the answer to your question has zero to do with the point that an omni-everything god either cant or wont teach without using pain and suffering in its lesson plan.
> Omni-everything means he could make us completely understand with a thought or a waggle of his finger or wiggle of his nose or.......


or

His own death.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2020)

660griz said:


> Many church services canceled due to this virus. I think that speaks volumes about the God and the congregation.


On one hand, its the responsible thing to do for the community at large.
On the other hand, it does fly in the face of -


> Unless one can concede that he is indeed everything and trust him completely with EVERYTHING,


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2020)

Israel said:


> or
> 
> His own death.


If His own death were an effective lesson there would be no need for pain and suffering to teach us anything.
Under normal circumstances that could be an indictment of either the student or the teacher.
In this circumstance, as I mentioned above, an omni-everything God couldn't possibly fail at teaching us anything regardless of the method used or the students unwillingness to learn.


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## Israel (Mar 17, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> If His own death were an effective lesson there would be no need for pain and suffering to teach us anything.
> Under normal circumstances that could be an indictment of either the student or the teacher.
> In this circumstance, as I mentioned above, an omni-everything God couldn't possibly fail at teaching us anything regardless of the method used or the students unwillingness to learn.



amen



> an omni-everything God couldn't possibly fail at teaching us anything regardless of the method used or the students unwillingness to learn.



and amen.


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## Spotlite (Mar 17, 2020)

660griz said:


> Why did he create the virus to begin with?


WHO created it depends on WHO is explaining their view on it.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Israel said:


> or
> 
> His own death.


So your guy sends a 1/3 version of himself disguised as his son and "sacrifices" 1/3 of himself for a few days before reanimating 1/3 of himself and ascending skyward to sit next to 1/3 of himself for eternity...

I will do a similar sacrifice with this virus situation. I will take 1/3 of my supplies and not use them for 3 days and then put them back into rotation.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Israel said:


> amen
> 
> 
> 
> and amen.


2 amens that contradict your own posts.


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## Israel (Mar 17, 2020)

bullethead said:


> So your guy sends a 1/3 version of himself disguised as his son and "sacrifices" 1/3 of himself for a few days before reanimating 1/3 of himself and ascending skyward to sit next to 1/3 of himself for eternity...
> 
> I will do a similar sacrifice with this virus situation. I will take 1/3 of my supplies and not use them for 3 days and then put them back into rotation.



Have I ever told you of thirds? Why are you eager to put words in my mouth?


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Israel said:


> Have I ever told you of thirds? Why are you eager to put words in my mouth?


Ok, tell me then, 
Is there a Father, Son and Holy Spirit?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2020)

Barouque Brass said:


> Can’t say that I fear dying, maybe if death was imminent I might be scared. My wife fears for what will happen to my soul when I’m dead. I think I’ll be buried and that’ll be the end of it.


Most (almost all, maybe even all) of the A/As here are in the same boat with you.
Most all of us have spouses, parents, families, friends etc who are Christians/believers.


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## Israel (Mar 17, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Ok, tell me then,
> Is there a Father, Son and Holy Spirit?


Yes.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Israel said:


> Yes.


Are they all One or separate?


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Izzy? Are you still here?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Are they all One or separate?


Israel could give you the same answer - "Yes". And still have his bases covered


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 17, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> I'm not going to question/challenge your personal experience so lets put that aside for now.
> These 2 statements....
> 
> 
> ….. support the 3rd option. It doesn't prove the 3rd option, it just leans toward the 3rd option.



I’m not trying to “prove” anything.  Those days are long gone.  Just relaying my experience that He is every bit as real, and knowable, as you and me.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> Israel could give you the same answer - "Yes". And still have his bases covered


I'm looking for clarification. 
I suspect my initial 1/3 post is accurate and all this is just more wasted bandwith that leads back to that post.

I am trying to get Israel to clarify if the Father,  Son and HS are all one and the same or if they are three separate entities.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 17, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> Your question and the answer to your question has zero to do with the point that an omni-everything god either cant or wont teach without using pain and suffering in its lesson plan.
> Omni-everything means he could make us completely understand with a thought or a waggle of his finger or wiggle of his nose or.......



My question had nothing to do with God.  We can leave God out of it completely.  I’ll cut to my point since you are intent on dragging God unto every post.  

Physical pain has a purpose.  It’s a defense mechanism.  Emotional pain is likewise.  Make of it what you will.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 17, 2020)

You are 





WaltL1 said:


> Apparently this omni-everything god can't get its point across without using pain and suffering in its lesson plan.




You have never been more correct in your life, ....ever, and yet you haven’t the faintest idea as to why that is the case.


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## Israel (Mar 17, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Izzy? Are you still here?


One.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Israel said:


> One.


So when Jesus was on the cross and looked up while asking his Father why he had forsakened him,...
Was he talking to himself?
Or a separate part of himself?


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## Spotlite (Mar 17, 2020)

we are going somewhere


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> My question had nothing to do with God.  We can leave God out of it completely.  I’ll cut to my point since you are intent on dragging God unto every post.
> 
> Physical pain has a purpose.  It’s a defense mechanism.  Emotional pain is likewise.  Make of it what you will.


Of course pain can be positive as a warning sign of worse issues or don't use a hot stove as a pillow etc.
Since the answer to that question was so obvious I assumed you were going to use it to make a point.
So go ahead make the point. 
We agree that pain can be positive.
Now what?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You are
> 
> 
> You have never been more correct in your life, ....ever, and yet you haven’t the faintest idea as to why that is the case.


Go ahead SFD tell me why I dont have the faintest idea why Im correct.
But before you do, remember that the Christian claim is that God is omni-everything.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> we are going somewhere


I am trying to clarify if my 1/3 post was accurate.
So far it seems the despite Israel's comment about me using a 1/3 breakdown to describe his beliefs, he certainly believes 3 parts equals 1 and has backed up my initial post contradicting himself for the 3rd time just in this thread thread.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I'm looking for clarification.
> I suspect my initial 1/3 post is accurate and all this is just more wasted bandwith that leads back to that post.​


​


> I am trying to get Israel to clarify if the Father,  Son and HS are all one and the same or if they are three separate entities


I still think he could have answered "yes" and his bases would be covered according to Christian belief.
Or "both" could have worked too.
Although I guess differing denomination beliefs could throw a monkey wrench in that.


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## Spotlite (Mar 17, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I am trying to clarify if my 1/3 post was accurate.
> So far it seems the despite Israel's comment about me using a 1/3 breakdown to describe his beliefs, he certainly believes 3 parts equals 1 and has backed up my initial post contradicting himself for the 3rd time just in this thread thread.


I’m just being sarcastic. Honestly, I almost replied to your question and that’s why I said “we” are going somewhere lol. It’s ok, it’s just what we do here.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> we are going somewhere


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

*Part 1*

Late to the thread, but wanted to offer input. Sorry for the length, I had to split into two posts. Please consider this one sinner's (and believer's) not completely theologically educated view of all this based on years of growing up in the church and studying. My intent isn't to change anyone's mind in terms of believing or not believing, only the Holy Spirit does that. I consider myself to be still growing and learning, I don't claim to know the mind of God, I'm relaying what I believe below as I think it contributes to the discussion, which is subject to change as I learn more.

I've also struggled with whether to post a longer monologue that informs my responses to various post comments first, or post it after responding to the comments. I decided to include after comment responses on a coin flip.



> If god is truly in control, does he want “his children” to become sick and die? Why doesn’t he just wipe out the virus?



In short, no He doesn't want us to become sick and die. As for why He doesn't just wipe out the virus, it's because He's also a God of justice and equity. He lets humanity receive what it has earned for itself en masse. _(more on that later)_



> So why did he let it happen to begin with?



Same response as above - He let's use receive what we earned.



> By the way, I dont believe God is responsible for starting or stopping anything.



In our day and age, I agree with you. All authority was given to Christ when he was crucified and resurrected. The Father is a spectator now, watching the Son carry out His plan and will.



> This morning, my neighbor that would normally be at church, said this is all in God’s plan. Trying to understand that one, too.



I believe it is. For a believer to explain it though, one needs to be able to take a more heavenly view of life on Earth as it unfolds. I don't believe it's punishment or wrath directed at us. It's all part of what humanity brought on itself via the Fall. God *could *snap his fingers and fix it, but that wouldn't fit with equity and justice (letting humanity experience the consequences of the choices that led to the Fall), so God doesn't. He has a wiser plan in mind for redeeming us instead. _(more on that later)_



> FIFY......our services are proceeding as usual and the Coronavirus is not even a topic of concern......



My church cancelled services for 2 weeks, and then will re-evaluate. Instead they're posting messages online for people to watch at home. I think it's a wise decision. 



> Truth, and especially Ultimate Truth should not be able to be questioned and could not be difficult to defend if in fact True...
> Don't you agree?



I actually do agree. Understanding Ultimate Truth, though, from the believer's perspective, has to be gained by trying to grow closer to God in your heart so you can begin to see His Heavenly perspective. I actually think way too many of us haven't gotten there yet, and that's why answering the questions raised in this thread becomes difficult and so many of us get run in circles.



> You can't understand it. Even many believers can't understand it; the purpose of pain and suffering. I wrestled with it for years.



The purpose of my post is to relay what I came up with after wrestling with the same things for years as well. I hope it sits well with people.



> Your question and the answer to your question has zero to do with the point that an omni-everything god either cant or wont teach without using pain and suffering in its lesson plan.



I'm being picky and choosey about which elements to quote and respond to, there are multiple criticisms along these lines, so consider this one a response to all - and it's just that as I said above, God chooses to let humanity reap what it has sown _(again...more on that later)_. God could demonstrate ultimate, even tyrannical power, and make us all think/do/etc. exactly has He wants, but that doesn't demonstrate wisdom, mercy, and love. It would only show power, and that's not what God's about. He's about justice, equity, and love and mercy at the same time. He goes about all this His way, not our way.



> Many church services canceled due to this virus. I think that speaks volumes about the God and the congregation.



Yes, and I believe it's prudent to do so and doesn't detract from any aspect of belief at all.



> In this circumstance, as I mentioned above, an omni-everything God couldn't possibly fail at teaching us anything regardless of the method used or the students unwillingness to learn.



This is true, but class isn't over yet. Again, God's plan is in His own way, not our way. He doesn't do things the way we think He should.



> If His own death were an effective lesson there would be no need for pain and suffering to teach us anything.



Christ's death on the cross was not about teaching us anything at all. It was about sacrifice and paying the price of sin for us. It was about the gift of Grace that is offered to us. His words "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" on the cross even reflect that.



> So your guy sends a 1/3 version of himself disguised as his son and "sacrifices" 1/3 of himself for a few days before reanimating 1/3 of himself and ascending skyward to sit next to 1/3 of himself for eternity...



The Trinity aspect of God (3-in-1, Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is something that for now I'll just say I accept that as a human of fallen nature, I don't have the capacity endowed in me to understand. Not everything Spiritual is perceivable to humanity, at least that's my belief. One day, humanity might gain the perception needed, after the first resurrection/when we're redeemed and glorified, but right now, it's just not in us.

So in terms of a more in-depth explanation of my responses above, I offer the following:

Going all the way back to Genesis 1:1, God created everything. When God created everything, He had an intent and purpose for it all. It was all exactly the way He intended, perfect and good.
Humanity (us) are created in God's image, and were created perfect and good like Him. As God is immortal, this means we were created to be immortal beings like him. Hence why we didn't clothes, etc.
Lucifer/Satan, originally a glorious angel, was found to have inequity in him and was cast out of Heaven, along with other angels that followed him. Basically, he wanted to be God, which was obviously a no-go.
On Earth, Satan deceives and manipulates humanity into separating itself spiritually from God.
This is obviously Adam and Eve, and the Apple from the forbidden Tree of knowledge of good and evil. I gotta say, I don't know if I believe this is a literal true story, or an allegory to illustrate the general point that humanity disobeyed and rebelled against God, which broke our spiritual connection with Him, resulting in the Fall, making us mortal.
The story illustrates that humanity changed in the Fall. The fact that they noticed they were naked and made coverings for themselves - they didn't need coverings before. This change marks the transition from immortal being as created, to mortal being.
_Big implication I've never heard anyone else say but I believe - after the fall humanity was not an image of God anymore. We went from immortal to mortal, not needing clothes to needing clothes. It illustrates that we changed and for the worse in the Fall. *After the Fall, we were no longer perfect and good. Therefore, we cannot have remained an image of God in our fallen state. When I hear a pastor say we're in God's image, I always silently disagree. *_
Just my own commentary here - why would Satan do this? Well, he wants to be like God, but can't. Then God creates humanity, and humanity is more like God than Satan. Satan, in his jealousy, contrives and successfully corrupts God's creation in response. My own thoughts here totally, but it's out of jealousy and hate that God would create something more like Himself than Satan.

This is vitally important to the whole belief - God has the power to just "fix it". God could have flicked a finger and restored humanity to his intent. He didn't because He's a God of justice and equity. Humanity didn't have to choose to go along with Satan's manipulations. Humanity now gets to reap what we've sown in choosing to separate ourselves from God via rebellion and disobedience.
This is another vitally important part - humanity was created as both physical and spiritual beings. When humanity fell, our spiritual aspect died as our spiritual connection to God was cut off. Our existence became purely physical in how we manifest, just like the "beasts of the field".
So as I've said before, God has a mind for justice, equity, and love and mercy at the same time, not just demonstrating omnipotent power. The result of the Fall is that we became mortal, just like any other beast of the field. Humanity chose to rebel and disobey, and the result is our existence today which is not God's original intent or design for us.
For the purpose of justice and equity, we reap what we've sown, which is we've sown an imperfect existence where we toil, suffer, and die. This is where disease, hunger, being too cold, being too hot, having our bodies degrade on us - it all comes from the Fall. We chose it, we reap what we've sown, and God lets us go through it because that's the equity in what humanity made for itself by it's own choices.
*To sum this point up - God doesn't create viruses or create suffering against humanity. Humanity's choices have done that all on our own. We've brought it on ourselves through rebellion and disobedience (sin) resulting in the Fall.*


See Part 2 - next post, for continuation.


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

*Part 2*

Here's where the Good News begins. God is also a God of Love and Mercy. There is a plan and means for humanity to be redeemed and restored to the way God intended for it to be. He didn't intend for us to endure this suffering and toil. He intended better for His creation.
Just my opinion here, but I believe the whole Old Testament highlights to us the *big point that the price of sin is death*. We see over and over, from Adam, through Abraham, Moses, ancient Israel, etc. - they followed ritualistic sacrifice to atone for their sins. Humanity no longer being perfect, had to sacrifice to atone for sin because the wages of sin is death.
A powerful point here - they could make atoning sacrifices, comply with God's laws and commands, but none are perfect, all fall short of God's glory, and throughout all the stories of the people that God was satisfied with or not, they all still died. None could ultimately save themselves from being Fallen in nature. No sacrifice was holy and clean enough before God to do that and pay the death price that is due from each of us.* The lesson is ultimately we can't save ourselves.*

This is where Jesus comes in. By coming to Earth in the form of a fallen man, living sinless, and dying, Jesus earned worthiness to stand before the Father and claim humanity as his. Jesus was the first and only human to ever live sinless, and die undeservedly_ from a Heavenly perspective_. That's why the Father resurrected him, because that resurrection was what was equitable for Jesus.
In resurrecting Jesus, the Father also redeemed and glorified him as a man, restoring Him as human to as was intended at humanity's creation.
Jesus is referred to as the first fruits - He is the first fruits of God's plan and the path God has given us to redemption and restoration. We follow Jesus's example to redemption.
This ties back to what I said before about we changed when we fell. The story of the transfiguration shows it, Jesus glowed, being a sinless man and member of the Trinity,  God's spirit entered him on that mountain for his chosen Apostles to witness it. He demonstrated to them what we will be like when we are restored to God's intent for how we are supposed to be so they could write it down and tell us today.
Further - after his resurrection, he wasn't initially recognized. Think about it, as we are born, we are aging towards death. Upon His resurrection, Jesus wasn't aged anymore. It changed how he looked, it took a bit for the disciples to recognize him as a result.
This further goes to the argument that we aren't the way we were intended to be - God's plan restores us to that intent.

Jesus performed the miracles He did to fulfill the prophecies and demonstrate who He is.
On a side note - God gives us prophecy so that when it's fulfilled, we know the truth of his Word. And there's a lot of prophecy that is fulfilled from the Bible. Sometimes people ask "why doesn't God speak to us?" like their anticipating booming voices in the sky. The answer is that God HAS spoken to us, through his Word, and through the fulfillment of prophecy. We just need to be willing to open our hearts and minds to see and hear it. This is a case of God doing things His way, not our way.

So what is the Gospel and Good News really? It's the message that all we today need to do to be redeemed and restored is accept the lordship of Jesus over our lives. We fell by trying to go our own way. Jesus offers grace to those who willingly chose to end disobedience and rebellion, and return to Him.
It's the message that we will ALL be resurrected like Jesus, but not all at the same time or to the same thing. There are two rounds of resurrections.
Throughout the Bible, there are references in the Old and New Testament to the coming resurrections. One is a resurrection to life, this is the first resurrection of which Christ is the first fruits. At the appointed time, Christ will come back, the dead in Christ and believers who are still alive will be caught up, redeemed and glorified as Christ was. Nobody knows the appointed time but the Father.
This is also known as the "Rapture".
I believe it will happen when the whole world has heard the Gospel and had a chance to accept or reject. There's scripture that speaks to it, but God desires to lose not a soul, so this won't happen until every soul living on Earth has had their chance at acceptance. In today's day and age, only now is it becoming possible for this happen.

The Second Resurrection is a resurrection "to death". The unbelievers are resurrected and judged based on their works. _(more on this below - it deserves it's own major point)_
Timing of both resurrections - there's lot of room for debate/interpretation of when these will happen. I'll just say I believe (currently, my mind could be changed by those more learned than I!) that the 1st Resurrection happens 3 1/2 years into the Tribulation described in Revelation, Daniel, and other scriptures.
The Tribulation culminates in the 2nd Coming, Christ's victory at Armageddon, leading into the 1000 year Millennial Reign.
At the end of the 1000 year Millennial Reign, the 2nd Resurrection occurs. Everyone who died in a state where they were not justified before God is resurrected at this time.

After Christ's resurrection, He ascended to Heaven, giving the Great Commission to spread the Gospel and the Good News that we can be redeemed and restored to how God intended us, perfect and good again.
Going into Revelation, it describes John's vision of Christ in Heaven before the Throne of God, with the hosts of Heaven watching. There's a scroll that nobody is worthy to unseal. Enter Christ (the Lamb). Through his sacrifice on the Christ, He has earned worthiness to open the scroll.
The 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowls unsealed are descriptive of God's plan to redeem and restore humanity. To "heal" what happened to humanity in the Fall.
Christ's statements that all authority had been given to Him in Heaven and Earth by the Father - one aspect of this is demonstrated by Christ the Lamb being the only one worthy to unseal and open the scroll. God sits back and let's Christ do it.
*The imagery of Christ opening the scroll and the seals is demonstrating that Christ the one who is given authority over Heaven and Earth to execute God's plan for redeeming and restoring us, and He has already started the process.*

The imagery in Revelation is part prophecy of the future, but also showing things that have already happened.  It shows us what Christ did when He ascended to Heaven. He went before the thrown and opened the scroll! He started the process to bring humanity to redemption and glorification! Opening those seals isn't something to come. It's already happened.
Look at the first 4 seals - the 4 horsemen so to speak. The first is a conquoror - look at the ages of empires that have come and gone. It has happened. The second is war - history has had wars aplenty in greater and greater scale. The third with the balances, a measure of wheat costing what was a whole day's wages (denarius) - we see the escalation of costs making it harder and harder to make a living today in all manners of our lives. The fourth - the pale (or sickly) horse - famine, pestilence, death. Look at the plagues, the Holocaust, how many have just been plain murdered around the world in genocides? 
This post is long enough, but there's tons of prophecy in Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation, and many others that can be shown as fulfilled already. I won't detail it, but I believe this is one aspect of "God already spoke to us through his Word!"
Romans says when men insist on sin, God gives them over to it. In the same way, through these trials we are starting to experience more and more, God is demonstrating what happens without Him. 
All of this shows God's omnipotent power by virtue of being resurrected. It shows God's justice and equity in that we reap what we've sown from being sinful and fallen in nature (humanity at large that is) - we suffer, toil, and die. It also shows God's love and mercy in that He has devised a way to redeem us and rescue us while still maintaining justice and equity with us. *His Wisdom is shown to be what drives everything, not just omnipotent power and control. And that, I believe demonstrates His Glory more than anything else could.*
Another point that rumbles in my head - we all hear Christians talked about "being redeemed". That when we were saved, we were redeemed. And then we still get sick, we still get hungry, cold, and toil, and we still mess up and sin like everyone else. So how can we truly be "redeemed"? I at least have come to think of it when the Bible speaks of us having been redeemed already (and it does) that it's meaning that the certainty of our redemption is strong and certain that we should live like it's already happened, but I don't think believers today are truly redeemed yet. However, we should live like we're already redeemed and restored, glorified after our resurrection. Don't worry about hording wealth, material things. _Do not conform to the pattern of this world._
About human vs. Heavenly perspective - God is the beginning and end. He sees everything, now, the past, the future. Christian faith, I think at least, has to recognize that because of this, when people ask "where is God? why doesn't he speak?" in all the various forms that question gets asked, the answer is God already did. Looking at heavenly perspective, human existence on a time line so to speak, like we're outside it and can observe it, you can point to events on it and those events are how God has spoken to us.
This will become much more evident in the future. After the 2nd resurrection, when the unsaved dead are physically alive again, in a world ruled by Christ and the saints for 1000 years where nobody has been hungry, sick, cold, hot, etc. They'll be able to look back at history and see the undeniable points where God injected such communication, He didn't do it our way, He did it His way. He doesn't answer to us. We answer to him, and it's incumbent on us, as part of accepting his dominion and ending our rebellion and disobedience to accept that we answer to Him. We have no standing to demand that he do anything our way.

Last thing, and I'm really going to plunge into something that's on my mind. I still research and study it, I don't have my mind made up about it yet. Please consider it a question.
Has to do with the 2nd resurrection.
The Bible says those brought back in the 2nd resurrection will be judged on their works.
It then says that when the judgement is complete, Satan, his false prophet, and the wicked will be thrown into the lake of fire.
Then Heaven and Earth are remade completely, perfect and good forever and ever.
Traditional view is that all those in the 2nd resurrection are equated with the wicked. I am not sure about that.
I've become what I've read is defined as an "Annihilationist". Ie - I believe that all those thrown in the lake of fire don't suffer for eternity. I believe they are truly annihilated instead, dead and gone eternally.
I've come to believe that God doesn't want to **** and punish anyone eternally. He doesn't want this at all. So why do it?
Because God also has an intention for his creation! God will not allow any aspect of his creation to exist in a fallen state indefinitely or eternally. Those that insist on sinful living aren't allowed to continue outside his will indefinitely or eternally.
God also doesn't want anyone to suffer eternally. Therefore, those that are thrown into the lake of fire, it's basically a mercy killing. It's putting them out of their misery. The same as we put down a loved pet that is suffering and can't be healed.

About those brought back in the 2nd resurrection - if Annihilation is correct, why bring them back only to annihilate them again?
The Bible also says the wages of sin is death. Well, those brought back in the 2nd resurrection, have they paid their death price for their sin already?
When it says they will be judged on their works, my question is it they will be judged on their works after their resurrection? Their works as informed by the undeniable state of things they are resurrected into? How could they reject God again? Only the truly wicked would do so.
What I'm getting at here - and it's a question - is this a chance to earn redemption via works for anyone not in the 1st resurrection?
The 1st resurrection is via grace only. We can't earn it. I know that.
Does the 2nd resurrection give a chance at redemption to say - an uncontacted tribesmen that lived, died, and never heard the gospel?
There is much debated scripture regarding saved via works or grace. Is the difference - grace for us today is possible in the first resurrection, everyone else (before Christ came or didn't hear His message?) is based on works after the 2nd resurrection?
Like I said, it's a question, I've seen many say no, a few say yes. I raise the question here as I think it's good food for thought.


Like I said, I'm not the most knowledgeable, it's all my current belief, but I'm definitely still learning. I could learn something new today that would change something. I don't claim to be right in everything.  The main point I guess is that God does have this, but in His way. It's not our way, and we're going to have to suffer along the way because that's the lot that we've made for ourselves.

If you made it through my novel, thank you for reading, and God Bless!


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> I still think he could have answered "yes" and his bases would be covered according to Christian belief.
> Or "both" could have worked too.
> Although I guess differing denomination beliefs could throw a monkey wrench in that.


The silence in trying to explain it says all I need to hear.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> *Part 1*
> 
> Late to the thread, but wanted to offer input. Sorry for the length, I had to split into two posts. Please consider this one sinner's (and believer's) not completely theologically educated view of all this based on years of growing up in the church and studying. My intent isn't to change anyone's mind in terms of believing or not believing, only the Holy Spirit does that. I consider myself to be still growing and learning, I don't claim to know the mind of God, I'm relaying what I believe below as I think it contributes to the discussion, which is subject to change as I learn more.
> 
> ...


Then what did Jesus die for?
Did the death of Jesus only cover humanity up and until that point or forever?


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

> Then what did Jesus die for?
> Did the death of Jesus only cover humanity up and until that point or forever?



I would argue Christ's sacrifice allows him to cover humanity up from the beginning to the end, everyone, everywhere, at any time - with the caveat that said individual humans chose to follow him.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> *Part 2*
> 
> Here's where the Good News begins. God is also a God of Love and Mercy. There is a plan and means for humanity to be redeemed and restored to the way God intended for it to be. He didn't intend for us to endure this suffering and toil. He intended better for His creation.
> Just my opinion here, but I believe the whole Old Testament highlights to us the *big point that the price of sin is death*. We see over and over, from Adam, through Abraham, Moses, ancient Israel, etc. - they followed ritualistic sacrifice to atone for their sins. Humanity no longer being perfect, had to sacrifice to atone for sin because the wages of sin is death.
> ...


I appreciate you taking the time to explain your opinions, assertions and beliefs. 
If you are ever able to back them up with indisputable facts and evidence that backs them up I would absolutely be interested in reading that also.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> I would argue Christ's sacrifice allows him to cover humanity up from the beginning to the end, everyone, everywhere, at any time - with the caveat that said individual humans chose to follow him.





> *To sum this point up - God doesn't create viruses or create suffering against humanity. Humanity's choices have done that all on our own. We've brought it on ourselves through rebellion and disobedience (sin) resulting in the Fall*


*
the "good, better and best" followers of Christ get the disease just as easily as the non.
Your first quote above does not correlate with the 2nd below it*


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

> If you are ever able to back them up with indisputable facts and evidence that backs them up I would absolutely be interested in reading that also.



Such as? What are you looking for? Asking genuinely...


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

*



			the "good, better and best" followers of Christ get the disease just as easily as the non.
Your first quote above does not correlate with the 2nd below it
		
Click to expand...

*
Referring back to Part 2, Point 14 above - yes, followers get the disease as anyone else. We're all flawed, fallen, sinners. I even acknowledged we remain as fallen as everyone else. 

When God created humanity, He placed humanity in a position of Stewardship over the Earth (I'm simplistically interpreting Genesis by saying that). When humanity fell, everything under human stewardship fell as well. 

In short, humanity broke God's creation (the Earth). Hence why new viruses come out and these things happen. I don't believe it's God's intent.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> Such as? What are you looking for? Asking genuinely...


We all can say whatever we want to say. We all can make claims, assertions and what we believe or need to be truthful. Saying those things and then backing them up with examples that are indisputable separate the claims from facts.
People speak for a god they have never met. They tell us what god wants and thinks and they never never spoken to god. It never ceases to amaze me how god thinks just like one individual and yet just like another individual,  and yet again just like another individual.  All of which tell us what god means, what god thinks, what god likes..meanwhile each is different from the next. None being able to provide anything to back up what they are saying with facts...just claims, assertions and beliefs as to what they THINK a god means.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> *Part 2*
> 
> Here's where the Good News begins. God is also a God of Love and Mercy. There is a plan and means for humanity to be redeemed and restored to the way God intended for it to be. He didn't intend for us to endure this suffering and toil. He intended better for His creation.
> Just my opinion here, but I believe the whole Old Testament highlights to us the *big point that the price of sin is death*. We see over and over, from Adam, through Abraham, Moses, ancient Israel, etc. - they followed ritualistic sacrifice to atone for their sins. Humanity no longer being perfect, had to sacrifice to atone for sin because the wages of sin is death.
> ...





> If you made it through my novel, thank you for reading,


We've been reading Israel's posts for years. Your "novel" is but a footnote compared to some of his 
But great post. 
As soon as I can get my eyes to focus again I will have some questions for you as there are some contradictions etc.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> Referring back to Part 2, Point 14 above - yes, followers get the disease as anyone else. We're all flawed, fallen, sinners. I even acknowledged we remain as fallen as everyone else.
> 
> When God created humanity, He placed humanity in a position of Stewardship over the Earth (I'm simplistically interpreting Genesis by saying that). When humanity fell, everything under human stewardship fell as well.
> 
> In short, humanity broke God's creation (the Earth). Hence why new viruses come out and these things happen. I don't believe it's God's intent.


Then again, what was the point of killing his kid?

Man was bad so God drowned EVERYTHING and EVERYBODY but what was in the boat.
He had to hit the reset button.
That didnt work(ya think he would have known that though) so he came up with the plot to impregnate a teenager with his son. Have the kid be known for the first year and last three years of his life staying in absolute obscurity in between. God figured sacrificing  his son(who really is also god) would save humanity.And all that for the purpose to Wipe Away the Sins of Mankind. Forever!
In one breath you say yes, that was the purpose of Jesus dying.
In the next you say these awful things happen to us humans because we are sinners.

I mean which is it?
Did God's plan(s) not work as intended?
Why would he go through with it if in fact he is All Knowing?


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

> As soon as I can get my eyes to focus again I will have some questions for you as there are some contradictions etc.



I tried to get it to add spaces in the lists, it wouldn't cooperate.


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## Israel (Mar 17, 2020)

bullethead said:


> The silence in trying to explain it says all I need to hear.


You help me to know.


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

> We all can say whatever we want to say. We all can make claims, assertions and what we believe or need to be truthful. Saying those things and then backing them up with examples that are indisputable separate the claims from facts.
> People speak for a god they have never met. They tell us what god wants and thinks and they never never spoken to god. It never ceases to amaze me how god thinks just like one individual and yet just like another individual, and yet again just like another individual. All of which tell us what god means, what god thinks, what god likes..meanwhile each is different from the next. None being able to provide anything to back up what they are saying with facts...just claims, assertions and beliefs as to what they THINK a god means.



There's not much to respond to. Not meaning this in a bad way. 

As for never having met God - I think I referred to it but when the Holy Spirit touches you, you know it. I got nothing else besides that for you. There isn't a way to "prove" it. About all a believer can do is testify to it.

As for what God wants - I believe he loves us & wants better for us in our lives than things like virus pandemics and what not. But just stepping in and fixing it doesn't fix our hearts. 

Let me add one more statement that's hit me before - He's not a God of equality. He's a God of equity. There's a difference. Forced equality is tyranny. Anyone paying attention to how things went with the Soviet Union, North Korea, Venezuela, etc. can see how forced equality plays out.


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

> In one breath you say yes, that was the purpose of Jesus dying.
> In the next you say these awful things happen to us humans because we are sinners.
> 
> I mean which is it?
> ...



I'm going to respond to this by reframing it. Yes awful things happen because humanity fell, and we lead a fallen existence that we have brought on ourselves. There is accountability towards us there, not God.

As for God's plan working or not working - it hasn't played out to completion or fruition yet. It's not a matter of working or not working, it's not done yet. And humanity will continue to go through these trials until it is done.

God is going through this PRECISELY because He is All Knowing.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> There's not much to respond to. Not meaning this in a bad way.


Ok



> ="Waddams, post: 12187250, member: 117876" As for never having met God - I think I referred to it but when the Holy Spirit touches you, you know it. I got nothing else besides that for you. There isn't a way to "prove" it. About all a believer can do is testify to it.


So have you been touched by the Holy Spirit?
And if So, the result of that has left you with a total understanding of what God thinks, feels, wants and you are able to speak for him?




> ="Waddams, post: 12187250, member: 117876" As for what God wants - I believe he loves us & wants better for us in our lives than things like virus pandemics and what not. But just stepping in and fixing it doesn't fix our hearts.


I understand that is what you believe. I believe something totally different.
Are you saying then that since you believe that is what god wants that you have not been contacted by the Holy Spirit and are unable to know what god wants so you have to guess and go with that belief?



> ="Waddams, post: 12187250, member: 117876" Let me add one more statement that's hit me before - He's not a God of equality. He's a God of equity. There's a difference. Forced equality is tyranny. Anyone paying attention to how things went with the Soviet Union, North Korea, Venezuela, etc. can see how forced equality plays out.


He seems to be a god of individual convenience.  He likes the same things and people that individuals like and hates the same also. Gods thoughts, wishes, feelings, wants, needs seem to be along the same lines as the person who I ask, and it changes just as quickly as I ask the next person. That happens with 2 or 2000+ people. All of which will tell me that they were somehow more special than the next belivers due to some added grace being expelled upon them be it through the Holy Spirit or some other of God's ways.
I would tend to think that if a God was involved at all...such thoughts and beliefs would not only be unanimous but 100% infallible and unable to be questioned.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> I'm going to respond to this by reframing it. Yes awful things happen because humanity fell, and we lead a fallen existence that we have brought on ourselves. There is accountability towards us there, not God.
> 
> As for God's plan working or not working - it hasn't played out to completion or fruition yet. It's not a matter of working or not working, it's not done yet. And humanity will continue to go through these trials until it is done.
> 
> God is going through this PRECISELY because He is All Knowing.





> Yes awful things happen because humanity fell, and we lead a fallen existence that we have brought on ourselves


So did God create us to fall?
Or did we defy God and trip ourselves?
Are we capable of defying God's plan for us?
I assume you are aware that a number of Christians believe NOTHING happens unless it was at God's direction/plan. Thats why Im asking.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> I'm going to respond to this by reframing it. Yes awful things happen because humanity fell, and we lead a fallen existence that we have brought on ourselves. There is accountability towards us there, not God.
> 
> As for God's plan working or not working - it hasn't played out to completion or fruition yet. It's not a matter of working or not working, it's not done yet. And humanity will continue to go through these trials until it is done.
> 
> God is going through this PRECISELY because He is All Knowing.


What was the purpose of Jesus dying on the cross? To save Humans from their sin, correct?
If it covers all sin that had already happened and all future sin, then your explanation does not fit. Jesus's death covered our accountability.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams, 
to Clarify, I am not poking fun at you or belittling you. I do not think less of you. I truly get interested when a person tells me how god operates and I get especially interested when they tell me that they have been touched by the HS and now possess understandings beyond even all other believers who have told me they also have been gifted special understandings.
I try to find out what reasons would prevent these different individuals from being unanimous in agreement if in fact they are all given the same gift from the same god.
I hope you can understand my reasonings for my questions to you a little better now.


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

> So have you been touched by the Holy Spirit?
> And if So, the result of that has left you with a total understanding of what God thinks, feels, wants and you are able to speak for him?



I do believe the Holy Spirit has touched me. I don't believe it makes me anymore special or better than any other person, though.

It resulted in me seeking to know God better, studying, etc. Reading scripture as well as consulting with others that have read it more than me. 

As for are believers able to speak for God, in a fashion yes. For those that want to hear, when Christ ascended to Heaven, he commissioned the disciples to go out and spread the gospel, and make more disciples. In that fashion, he commissioned his disciples here on Earth to continue to speak for Him. However, as I said before, I do believe that His Word actually speaks for Him much better than I can, but "hearing" how the Word speaks for him requires one to basically give themselves up to it first.

Christ even spoke of it being better for Him to go so the Holy Spirit could come. Even the disciples didn't understand what Christ's message was fully until after He ascended and the Holy Spirit descended on them at Pentecost. That's when it all came together, Peter gave his sermon, and the first 3000 were converted. At least I think it was 3000. From there, the disciples went out spreading the Word.



> I understand that is what you believe. I believe something totally different.
> Are you saying then that since you believe that is what god wants that you have not been contacted by the Holy Spirit and are unable to know what god wants so you have to guess and go with that belief?



I'm not certain that you're really asking a question.


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

> I would tend to think that if a God was involved at all...such thoughts and beliefs would not only be unanimous but 100% infallible and unable to be questioned.



What about free will? God gave us free will. Part of that is free will to go our own way, at the cost of the price we pay for it. With free will, we can question anything. What you are suggestion couldn't be accomplished without taking away free will.


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

> What was the purpose of Jesus dying on the cross? To save Humans from their sin, correct?
> If it covers all sin that had already happened and all future sin, then your explanation does not fit. Jesus's death covered our accountability.



I covered this originally, but Christ's dying on the cross purpose was for a sinless man to finally be justified in being resurrected. And only Christ was able to live a human life and meet that standard. It gives Him the authority to stand before God and say "they are mine now and under my authority" in reference to us. It gives him the authority to declare us justified and grant us grace. That's demonstrated in Revelation when none but the slaughtered lamb are worthy to stand before the throne and open the scroll.

Without becoming a man and paying the price He did, Christ would not have been granted this authority by the Father. I realize that might not well accepted even by other Christians.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> What about free will? God gave us free will. Part of that is free will to go our own way, at the cost of the price we pay for it. With free will, we can question anything. What you are suggestion couldn't be accomplished without taking away free will.


You said that being touched by ,or enlightened by The HS allows and individual to better understand God.
The point of the HS doing that would seem to serve a purpose. Correct? The purpose would be to understand and relay the words of God, correct?
Now it seems that you are saying that despite the HS doing this the individual can override the HS by using Free Will, therefore undoing God's work of sending the HS to that individual in the first place.

Idk man, the excuses as to why a God would send a Holy Spirit on a purposeful mission only to have the individual not get the full value of the information due to Free Will seems like a waste of time by God. Why send the HS at all?


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

> So did God create us to fall?
> Or did we defy God and trip ourselves?
> Are we capable of defying God's plan for us?
> I assume you are aware that a number of Christians believe NOTHING happens unless it was at God's direction/plan. Thats why Im asking.



No he didn't create us to fall. He gave us free will, and allowed us to, though. We defied God and tripped ourselves up. And yes, we are capable of defying God's plan for us - that's part of free will that's granted to us.

I know a number Christians believe as you describe, that nothing outside of God's will can happen. I'll respond by reminding them of Jonah - God commanded him to go Nineveh. He defied that command at first before eventually complying. That he could resist and defy demonstrates God has a plan, we have free will to follow or not. 

I don't believe it's God's plan for things like virus pandemics to happen in our day at least. He gave authority to Christ, and He otherwise allows bad things to happen as a result of our fallen nature and existence, but He doesn't cause them.

Prior instances such as the flood, or destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, it shows God is not going to allow evil and fallen existence to continue eternally. It's a warning to us as well as a plea for us to get right with Christ because He wants to redeem us, but we have to chose to let him.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> I covered this originally, but Christ's dying on the cross purpose was for a sinless man to finally be justified in being resurrected. And only Christ was able to live a human life and meet that standard. It gives Him the authority to stand before God and say "they are mine now and under my authority" in reference to us. It gives him the authority to declare us justified and grant us grace. That's demonstrated in Revelation when none but the slaughtered lamb are worthy to stand before the throne and open the scroll.
> 
> Without becoming a man and paying the price He did, Christ would not have been granted this authority by the Father. I realize that might not well accepted even by other Christians.


Jesus is God. God is Jesus. He was granted the authority the minute he was conceived. 
I will ask you.
Is God,  Jesus and the HS all one or are they three separate entities that all exist individually and serve separate purposes towards the same goal?


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

> Waddams,
> to Clarify, I am not poking fun at you or belittling you. I do not think less of you. I truly get interested when a person tells me how god operates and I get especially interested when they tell me that they have been touched by the HS and now possess understandings beyond even all other believers who have told me they also have been gifted special understandings.
> I try to find out what reasons would prevent these different individuals from being unanimous in agreement if in fact they are all given the same gift from the same god.
> I hope you can understand my reasonings for my questions to you a little better now.



I understand.  I don't have any intention of trying to make you believe either. That's not in my power. 

As for possessing understandings better than other believers, I do believe a Christian's walk is referred to in many places in the Bible and it's stated that some are farther along than others. 

If this didn't come across before, I'll restate it, I present this as my best understanding, but fully realize I don't know it all. I'm not perfect, my understanding isn't perfect. I hope to learn more and grow more in my faith and in my relationship with God. As that happens, I might very well revise things I'm saying.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> No he didn't create us to fall. He gave us free will, and allowed us to, though. We defied God and tripped ourselves up. And yes, we are capable of defying God's plan for us - that's part of free will that's granted to us.
> 
> I know a number Christians believe as you describe, that nothing outside of God's will can happen. I'll respond by reminding them of Jonah - God commanded him to go Nineveh. He defied that command at first before eventually complying. That he could resist and defy demonstrates God has a plan, we have free will to follow or not.
> 
> ...


According to the Flood Story, Sodom/Gomorrah....God Killed them all for disobedience.
How does Free Will play into God giving it to Us and then killing us for our choices?
I am not understanding how we can defy something that we have absolutely zero knowledge of what IT wants, demands or expects...ESPECIALLY if this entity has built in a Free Will clause that allows to make our own choices.

Basically, you don't have to do what I want but if you don't I will punish you.
Well, what do you want me to do?
Oh nothing, but it better be correct or else.


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

> Jesus is God. God is Jesus. He was granted the authority the minute he was conceived.
> I will ask you.
> Is God, Jesus and the HS all one or are they three separate entities that all exist individually and serve separate purposes towards the same goal?



I might have a departure from what other believers believe in this, but there are two aspects to this - one is the nature of the Trinity. I addressed it originally but I think there's a spiritual component we lack to be able to understand it. I can't explain how it works to you.

As for granting authority, I do believe in the Sovereignty of the Father, the Son is subservient to the Father, and the HS is subservient to both, while at the same time all 3 are part of what I've heard called "the God Head" - the 3-in-1 Trinity. That's my belief.

And I don't believe Jesus was granted all authority at his conception. I believe He was granted that authority later - there's a point in the Gospels when He says it has happened. At the ascension He told the disciples He was going to his Father's house to prepare a room for us. When He ascended and got back to Heaven, what he did was revealed to John and recorded in Revelation as he was the only one found worth to be able to open the scroll - He was the only one with the authority as granted by the Father.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> No he didn't create us to fall. He gave us free will, and allowed us to, though. We defied God and tripped ourselves up. And yes, we are capable of defying God's plan for us - that's part of free will that's granted to us.
> 
> I know a number Christians believe as you describe, that nothing outside of God's will can happen. I'll respond by reminding them of Jonah - God commanded him to go Nineveh. He defied that command at first before eventually complying. That he could resist and defy demonstrates God has a plan, we have free will to follow or not.
> 
> ...





> Prior instances such as the flood


How about those little bloating, waterlogged baby bodies, not to mention the unborn fetuses? Did they exercise their free will and defy God? Or were they just collateral damage?
Harsh question, yes. Maybe even in poor taste. But a realistic question none the less.


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

> According to the Flood Story, Sodom/Gomorrah....God Killed them all for disobedience.
> How does Free Will play into God giving it to Us and then killing us for our choices?



It shows if we use our free will for evil, God will _eventually_ stop said evil. It also shows God is patient and gives a chance for repentance first as He didn't smite the evil ones the instant they did something evil.

It shows there is universal morality, good, evil, as well, and God is Sovereign and has defined it all according to His will. Our thinking that basically questions that is just plain wrong - rebellious and disobedient.

We have free will to make our choices, and then the responsibility to live with the consequences, some of which can and really will include God destroying those that use their free will to chose evil. That's clear - in Revelation and other scripture, it's expressly stated that the wicked will be thrown into the lake of fire, burned away in the end. God's Sovereign, he defines the Wicked. The Son has authority, but the Son is still obedient to the Father and uses His authority per the Father's will.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> I might have a departure from what other believers believe in this, but there are two aspects to this - one is the nature of the Trinity. I addressed it originally but I think there's a spiritual component we lack to be able to understand it. I can't explain how it works to you.


So again, it is more about an individual understanding rather than a gift for many to be able to understand it exactly as god intends..



Waddams said:


> As for granting authority, I do believe in the Sovereignty of the Father, the Son is subservient to the Father, and the HS is subservient to both, while at the same time all 3 are part of what I've heard called "the God Head" - the 3-in-1 Trinity. That's my belief.


I get that,  it is what works for you. That is your truth but not necessarily something every other Christian believes because (if true) the HS is sent to allow a person to understand it but the person either by will or something else does not understand fully.



Waddams said:


> And I don't believe Jesus was granted all authority at his conception. I believe He was granted that authority later - there's a point in the Gospels when He says it has happened. At the ascension He told the disciples He was going to his Father's house to prepare a room for us. When He ascended and got back to Heaven, what he did was revealed to John and recorded in Revelation as he was the only one found worth to be able to open the scroll - He was the only one with the authority as granted by the Father.


Do you worship one god or three?
Which one(s) do you worship or when and why do you separate one from the rest instead of just talking to the original god?


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> It shows if we use our free will for evil, God will _eventually_ stop said evil. It also shows God is patient and gives a chance for repentance first as He didn't smite the evil ones the instant they did something evil.
> 
> It shows there is universal morality, good, evil, as well, and God is Sovereign and has defined it all according to His will. Our thinking that basically questions that is just plain wrong - rebellious and disobedient.
> 
> We have free will to make our choices, and then the responsibility to live with the consequences, some of which can and really will include God destroying those that use their free will to chose evil. That's clear - in Revelation and other scripture, it's expressly stated that the wicked will be thrown into the lake of fire, burned away in the end. God's Sovereign, he defines the Wicked. The Son has authority, but the Son is still obedient to the Father and uses His authority per the Father's will.


Walt touched on it but again what about the babies? What about the people who never heard of God? Were the animals evil?


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

> How about those little bloating, waterlogged baby bodies, not to mention the unborn fetuses? Did they exercise their free will and defy God? Or were they just collateral damage?
> Harsh question, yes. Maybe even in poor taste. But a realistic question none the less.





> Walt touched on it but again what about the babies? What about the people who never heard of God? Were the animals evil?



I don't actually see it as in poor taste, and harsh though it is, I'm glad you asked because it's deserving of discussion. There are aspects of this subject matter that are actually very harsh.

Little bloating, waterlogged baby bodies, unborn fetuses - etc. It shows we are subject to the pitfalls of fallen existence from the instant of conception. Miscarried babies, 6 month olds that die from diarrhea in Trump's "3rd world ****hole countries", etc. For our entire existence in this life - we are in peril and at risk. It can happen by our embryo not implanting right, our mother's womb not working right, or being aborted, or while still helpless as an infant any number of things that can happen.

This exact subject - that basically of innocents that didn't get the chance at the receiving the Grace offered by Christ - is where my thinking on the 2nd Resurrection being a chance for redemption through works originated from. It's different than what's offered now via grace (1st resurrection). I don't believe that the Saints in the 1st Resurrection will be just living in paradise on Earth with nothing to do but be free. The 1000 year kingdom, I suspect, will be a time of preparation. I wonder if those in the 1st Resurrection will be working to prepare for the 2nd Resurrection and be ready to do a part in saving the rest of humanity. I wonder if they will have the chance at redemption via works after their resurrection to physical life. Like I said before, I have to think in that scenario, the only people that will reject God's offer will be the truly wicked.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Why make humans who you already know exactly what they are going to do EONS before they ever do it and then punish them?
Why kill them for doing as designed?
Starting over
And then knowing they will turn out the same way sacrifice your son even though you already know nothing has or will change?

I have a hard time seeing anything God-like in any of that.
But I do see 100% human excuses for 100% human actions for things they want to be true but make no sense.


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

> Do you worship one god or three?
> Which one(s) do you worship or when and why do you separate one from the rest instead of just talking to the original god?



See prior comments regarding the Trinity. As confusing as they admittedly are! 

I've tried to come up with a better explanation, a way spiritually explain the 3 separate but still the same God, 3-in-1 Trinity of God. It's not a good explanation, but the best I've been able to come up with as a comparison is the human body. We've got one body, comprised of different parts. Same DNA, the parts are all "us", and make up a whole. Yet they are also different parts and do different functions. I don't think it's a good example that illustrates the Trinity, but it's the best I've been able to come up with.

Again - I don't think humanity is endowed with the ability to perceive the reality of it. I wonder if that will change after resurrection/glorification? But that's purely a speculative thought of my own.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> I don't actually see it as in poor taste, and harsh though it is, I'm glad you asked because it's deserving of discussion. There are aspects of this subject matter that are actually very harsh.
> 
> Little bloating, waterlogged baby bodies, unborn fetuses - etc. It shows we are subject to the pitfalls of fallen existence from the instant of conception. Miscarried babies, 6 month olds that die from diarrhea in Trump's "3rd world ****hole countries", etc. For our entire existence in this life - we are in peril and at risk. It can happen by our embryo not implanting right, our mother's womb not working right, or being aborted, or while still helpless as an infant any number of things that can happen.
> 
> This exact subject - that basically of innocents that didn't get the chance at the receiving the Grace offered by Christ - is where my thinking on the 2nd Resurrection being a chance for redemption through works originated from. It's different than what's offered now via grace (1st resurrection). I don't believe that the Saints in the 1st Resurrection will be just living in paradise on Earth with nothing to do but be free. The 1000 year kingdom, I suspect, will be a time of preparation. I wonder if those in the 1st Resurrection will be working to prepare for the 2nd Resurrection and be ready to do a part in saving the rest of humanity. I wonder if they will have the chance at redemption via works after their resurrection to physical life. Like I said before, I have to think in that scenario, the only people that will reject God's offer will be the truly wicked.


Is God aborting the babies or are humans?
God chose to kill everyone but 8 on the planet.  Nobody else did.

Jesus was here and gone. Said these things will be done in that generation. Not thousands of years later.
Jesus was Jew and nothing in Judaism tells of these future happenings.
Jesus does not fulfil the prophecies of the Jewish Messiah.
Jesus did not set out to have a religion split from Judaism towards him.
He wanted the way Judaism was headed to go back towards old school Torah Judaism.

This other stuff is the work of many others except Jesus.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> See prior comments regarding the Trinity. As confusing as they admittedly are!
> 
> I've tried to come up with a better explanation, a way spiritually explain the 3 separate but still the same God, 3-in-1 Trinity of God. It's not a good explanation, but the best I've been able to come up with as a comparison is the human body. We've got one body, comprised of different parts. Same DNA, the parts are all "us", and make up a whole. Yet they are also different parts and do different functions. I don't think it's a good example that illustrates the Trinity, but it's the best I've been able to come up with.
> 
> Again - I don't think humanity is endowed with the ability to perceive the reality of it. I wonder if that will change after resurrection/glorification? But that's purely a speculative thought of my own.


I'll agree. Not a good example.
It just doesn't work


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

> Why make humans who you already know exactly what they are going to do EONS before they ever do it and then punish them?
> Why kill them for doing as designed?
> Starting over
> And then knowing they will turn out the same way sacrifice your son even though you already know nothing has or will change?
> ...



God the Father is a creator. It's what He does. As for what else was in His mind motivating it, I don't know. He's not accountable to us, He doesn't explain it to us. Part of my faith is accepting that. I believe He did create us and that's what matters to me.

As He's outside of time, the beginning and the end, He knows what we will do because He's already seen it. Within the framework of our existence, we still have free will, and we reap what we sow with that free will.

As for killing people for doing as designed - I would ask you to consider maybe they weren't doing as designed. Though fallen, we still have free will and know good from evil. We were designed for better, and though fallen, we still can make choices to act better than our fallen nature does to us. 

And again - sacrifice of Jesus was to change us and redeem us through resurrection. It wasn't to change us in this life.

Our free will makes us 100% responsible for the fallout of our actions, including the actions that led to the Fall the consequences that have dogged us every since.



> Is God aborting the babies or are humans?
> God chose to kill everyone but 8 on the planet. Nobody else did.



People abort babies. God doesn't cause it. He allows it, though, because it's part of the nature of being in a fallen existence. And he will address and fix it via the 1st and 2nd resurrections. 

And yes, God killed the wicked in the flood. And they'll be resurrected to judgement. He did it to show the example that He's going to "wash away" sin, it won't be allowed to persist eternally.


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## Waddams (Mar 17, 2020)

Need to leave work. Been listening in on a conference call all day, enjoyed the discussion. Off to home and decide if we're going to embark on a home remodel job with the economy crumbling right now.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> I don't actually see it as in poor taste, and harsh though it is, I'm glad you asked because it's deserving of discussion. There are aspects of this subject matter that are actually very harsh.
> 
> Little bloating, waterlogged baby bodies, unborn fetuses - etc. It shows we are subject to the pitfalls of fallen existence from the instant of conception. Miscarried babies, 6 month olds that die from diarrhea in Trump's "3rd world ****hole countries", etc. For our entire existence in this life - we are in peril and at risk. It can happen by our embryo not implanting right, our mother's womb not working right, or being aborted, or while still helpless as an infant any number of things that can happen.
> 
> This exact subject - that basically of innocents that didn't get the chance at the receiving the Grace offered by Christ - is where my thinking on the 2nd Resurrection being a chance for redemption through works originated from. It's different than what's offered now via grace (1st resurrection). I don't believe that the Saints in the 1st Resurrection will be just living in paradise on Earth with nothing to do but be free. The 1000 year kingdom, I suspect, will be a time of preparation. I wonder if those in the 1st Resurrection will be working to prepare for the 2nd Resurrection and be ready to do a part in saving the rest of humanity. I wonder if they will have the chance at redemption via works after their resurrection to physical life. Like I said before, I have to think in that scenario, the only people that will reject God's offer will be the truly wicked.


With all due respect, 2nd resurrection or 1st or any number of other ways a baby can die etc etc...…. is just avoiding or is just distracting one's self from picturing the atrocious act that the God they worship is responsible for.
Ever seen a bloated, waterlogged body up close and personal? I have and it aint a pretty sight.
Worship the god/person/whatever that was intentionally responsible for it? Especially innocent children?
Not me. I'll burn in he11 first. And I'll smile in satisfaction inbetween my screams.


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## bullethead (Mar 17, 2020)

Waddams said:


> God the Father is a creator. It's what He does. As for what else was in His mind motivating it, I don't know. He's not accountable to us, He doesn't explain it to us. Part of my faith is accepting that. I believe He did create us and that's what matters to me.
> 
> As He's outside of time, the beginning and the end, He knows what we will do because He's already seen it. Within the framework of our existence, we still have free will, and we reap what we sow with that free will.
> 
> ...


Im not too sure that you are reading your own writings.
If God granted us free will and then punishes us for using it what type of God is that?
According to the stories in the bible god killed everyone and everything in the flood except what was on the boat. Is it possible that you have to tell yourself innocent children, babies, slow of mind, animals and fish were "wicked" in order to overlook it?
If not, can you explain how they were wicked?


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 18, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> Go ahead SFD tell me why I dont have the faintest idea why Im correct.
> But before you do, remember that the Christian claim is that God is omni-everything.



Yeah, I'm kinda aware of that one.  You're an intelligent man Walt.  You could figure it out if you cared to, but I'm past the days of trying to convince others of anything.


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## Spotlite (Mar 18, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Im not too sure that you are reading your own writings.
> If God granted us free will and then punishes us for using it what type of God is that?
> According to the stories in the bible god killed everyone and everything in the flood except what was on the boat. Is it possible that you have to tell yourself innocent children, babies, slow of mind, animals and fish were "wicked" in order to overlook it?
> If not, can you explain how they were wicked?


My Son has free will to use my truck. If he gets a speeding ticket -what kind of Father am I if I don’t punish him?? You’re thinking with a one track mind that’s obviously not ever looked at this objectively without a predetermined mindset.


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## bullethead (Mar 18, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> My Son has free will to use my truck. If he gets a speeding ticket -what kind of Father am I if I don’t punish him?? You’re thinking with a one track mind that’s obviously not ever looked at this objectively without a predetermined mindset.


Its easy to make excuses for a God when you exclude him from the equation.
You don't know what your son will do for certain ahead of time. You cannot punish him before he does it.

I am absolutely not the one thinking with a single track mind.

God drowned approximately 20 million people. Babies, infants, unborn children,  mothers, fathers, grandparents, workers, warriors, priests, his own followers, the "baddies" and on and on and on LITERALLY everyone and everything except what was in the boat. Many were innocent and had never done anything so bad nor ever had a chance to do anything so bad as to warrant death. 

Did you punish your son for potentially stealing your truck?
Did you punish your son for potentially smoking behind the shed?
Did you kill your son for him potentially becoming a pedophile and rapist?
????? Would you ?????

You equate your fatherly duties to God's decisions and actions with the easy and convenient examples and totally overlook the magnitude of just who and how many your God outright murdered because his experiment didn't go as he planned (but then he wouldn't be god if he planned it wrong). And you not only worship but make excuses for a being who flat out drowned 20 million people for doing what people do NO different than today.

I am learned enough to know there was no worldwide flood or god that did any of it, but I have to make these counterpoints in order to converse with the people who not only believe it happened but try to make excuses for why god is like a human on some things and above humans on others.


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## bullethead (Mar 18, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> My Son has free will to use my truck. If he gets a speeding ticket -what kind of Father am I if I don’t punish him?? You’re thinking with a one track mind that’s obviously not ever looked at this objectively without a predetermined mindset.


In your mind do you truly believe that every single person..unborn to elderly.. (except 8) on the planet was so extremely wicked that death was the only solution? Can you honestly defend a story like that?


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 18, 2020)

> [U]WaltL1 said
> 
> Your question and the answer to your question has zero to do with the point that an omni-everything god either cant or wont teach without using pain and suffering in its lesson plan



That's one way to frame it, but it's slighted because it only considers half the equation: that pain and suffering are all the teachers fault.  The other half of the reality should be given equal weight and it is this; a non-omni-everything (you and me) can't or won't (as in my case)  learn without pain and suffering.  The true nature of the relationship takes both a teacher and a WILLING learner.

As it pertains to learning, pain is a great teaching tool, perhaps the best.  No one picks up a hot coal on purpose but once.  Physical pain lets us know physical damage has occurred, something is askew and dangerous.  Emotional pain is exactly the same: spiritual damage has occurred and something is askew and dangerous.

Now to address this in the context of the teacher-student example  To consider the teacher as the only one capable of culpability is dishonest.   The mature thing that MY conscious requires of me, is to first take an honest assessment of ME, and address any shortcomings I may have as a student before I go looking for fault with the teacher.  If I'm experiencing pain(I am the one experiencing it after all), what am I doing, or have done, that would account for it.  Did I pick up a hot coal or is it emotional pain?  If it's emotional pain, then what is out of order with me spiritually that accounts for it?

If one doesn't believe in God, or has a flawed understanding of God, then there's no answer.....a brick wall.  This is where I was at, so I'm speaking from personal experience.  What I came to understand was it was that pain and suffering that brought me to God, pushed me THROUGH  that disbelief and misunderstanding and led me to know God, not just know ABOUT God.

What did I find?  That He's as real AND RELATABLE TO, as you and me.  That He loves us all equally and unconditionally.  That He uses pain and suffering to not just bring us to Him, but he will take that same pain and suffering and turn it into a blessing for us and others around us.

Now I ask you, WHO would not want their pain and suffering taken away and turned into a blessing beyond their wildest imagination?  WHO?  I will give you the answer; an obstinate and bitter student, who would rather be dishonest for the sake of their ego and live in bitterness than address their own pain, suffering, and resentment.  That's WHO.  I wore those shoes for a long time, almost to the end, but thankfully the pain got bad enough that I just couldn't do it any more.  I'm eternally grateful for that pain and suffering. It's the best thing that ever happened to me.   There's your answer to your "problem" of pain and suffering.


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## Waddams (Mar 18, 2020)

> Jesus was here and gone. Said these things will be done in that generation. Not thousands of years later.



What things? It's easy to throw this stuff out in general and try to make a believer start defending, and many will try, but I'm not going to.



> Jesus was Jew and nothing in Judaism tells of these future happenings.



That's not true. Daniel's 70th week for one. Plenty in Isaiah. Other's as well.



> Jesus does not fulfil the prophecies of the Jewish Messiah.



So the Jew's claim, but they kind of have to or admit their wrong and convert.



> Jesus did not set out to have a religion split from Judaism towards him.



No he didn't. But it Isaiah and other scripture predicted it would happen.



> He wanted the way Judaism was headed to go back towards old school Torah Judaism.



That's true. Because what was taught was the same thing He was teaching. Love, mercy and submitting to God. The Jewish leaders of his time had gotten the original intent wrong, Jesus was fulfilling prophecy and providing a correction.



> With all due respect, 2nd resurrection or 1st or any number of other ways a baby can die etc etc...…. is just avoiding or is just distracting one's self from picturing the atrocious act that the God they worship is responsible for.
> Ever seen a bloated, waterlogged body up close and personal? I have and it aint a pretty sight.
> Worship the god/person/whatever that was intentionally responsible for it? Especially innocent children?
> Not me. I'll burn in he11 first. And I'll smile in satisfaction inbetween my screams.



and



> Im not too sure that you are reading your own writings.
> If God granted us free will and then punishes us for using it what type of God is that?
> According to the stories in the bible god killed everyone and everything in the flood except what was on the boat. Is it possible that you have to tell yourself innocent children, babies, slow of mind, animals and fish were "wicked" in order to overlook it?
> If not, can you explain how they were wicked?



There's the general argument that God is Sovereign, gave us life, we belong to Him, and He can take such life away, but there's more beyond that.

One, the flood isn't the only mass killing sanctioned by God. The Hebrew conquest of the Holy Land, he instructed them to kill everyone and everything as well, is an example. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, everyone. It all included innocent babies. 

I'm not gonna lie - it's harsh. And it can be hard to understand. In each case, though, God was destroying a society of humans who had grown supremely wicked. The generations passed on their wickedness to the next. Before the flood, humanity at large is recorded as having nothing but escalating wicked thoughts. The Canannites practiced child sacrifice, their destruction was ordered to keep their wickedness out of Hebrew society. The Sodomites and Gomorrahans wanted to rape with Lot's guests. What God did was destroy them all to stop the generational continuation of extreme wickedness, and His decision was based on stopping it expanding in the world, from impacting and hurting others outside those groups he destroyed.

God doesn't "like" doing this. It's recorded He grieved after the Flood. He also commanded the Hebrews to not take Canaanite gold, and to kill the livestock rather than take it. God made sure that they would not benefit from the genocide, He made sure to make the point it was not okay to go find the next group and kill them for all their stuff too.

Again, I do believe all those people, including the innocents will be given justice in the future, and I do believe these events show that God will ultimately destroy wickedness completely. He doesn't do it now because He's giving humanity the chance to repent, just like He gave everyone the chance to repent before the flood, before the Canaanites were destroyed, before Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. There's scripture that specifically says He gave them chance to repent, and they didn't, so He destroyed them and their children to keep them from spreading their wickedness.

You have free will to reject God for whatever reason you decide, that's the nature of free will. I won't argue with you about that.


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## bullethead (Mar 18, 2020)

Waddams said:


> What things? It's easy to throw this stuff out in general and try to make a believer start defending, and many will try, but I'm not going to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who recorded that God grieved?
Was someone there?
We have addressed everything you talked about above many times over. I just dont have the time today to go over it all one by one again today.
All I can say is that you have to believe whatever stories you must in order to do your thing in life. 
Best of luck.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 18, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That's one way to frame it, but it's slighted because it only considers half the equation: that pain and suffering are all the teachers fault.  The other half of the reality should be given equal weight and it is this; a non-omni-everything (you and me) can't or won't (as in my case)  learn without pain and suffering.  The true nature of the relationship takes both a teacher and a WILLING learner.
> 
> As it pertains to learning, pain is a great teaching tool, perhaps the best.  No one picks up a hot coal on purpose but once.  Physical pain lets us know physical damage has occurred, something is askew and dangerous.  Emotional pain is exactly the same: spiritual damage has occurred and something is askew and dangerous.
> 
> ...





> a non-omni-everything (you and me) can't or won't (as in my case)  learn without pain and suffering.


1. With a thought, God could change that. He could make it that every single thing learned through pain and suffering can be learned without pain and suffering.
2. God is said to have created us. When he was figuring out the recipe for us he apparently decided "I think I'll make it so these folks wont learn unless pain and suffering is involved".
3. Im gonna guess that if your child came home with a black eye or if you had to identify their body at the morgue and when you asked what happeed and the response was "The little bugger just refused to learn math"...…. you probably wouldnt worship the teacher or put them up for the Teacher of the Year award.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 18, 2020)

Waddams said:


> What things? It's easy to throw this stuff out in general and try to make a believer start defending, and many will try, but I'm not going to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


​


> God was destroying a society of humans who had grown supremely wicked


Nope. Those kids, fetuses etc didnt live long enough to become anything. 
Even us wicked humans dont do that. We dont kill every Italian because some Italians were La Cosa Nostra.
Please give me another example, here in the "real world" where you find it justifiable to kill the children for the crimes of the parent(s).


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## WaltL1 (Mar 18, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> My Son has free will to use my truck. If he gets a speeding ticket -what kind of Father am I if I don’t punish him?? You’re thinking with a one track mind that’s obviously not ever looked at this objectively without a predetermined mindset.


When you say "punish him" for taking your truck, would you kill him for taking it?
Or maybe just take the truck away so he could actually learn something?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 18, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> opinion, opinion, opinion.  Not here to change those, but as to your problem with pain and suffering...….like I said.  It's answered.


They arent opinions.
If what Christianity says about God is true then my "opinions" are also true because they are all based on that.
You dont realize it but by claiming your God is omni-everything those claims create situations you just cant get around other than by stomping your feet and wailing "opinion. opinion, opinion"
But you cant get around it.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 18, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> They arent opinions.
> If what Christianity says about God is true then my "opinions" are also true because they are all based on that.
> You dont realize it but by claiming your God is omni-everything those claims create situations you just cant get around other than by stomping your feet and wailing "opinion. opinion, opinion"
> But you cant get around it.



Whatever Walt.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 18, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Whatever Walt.


There is a simple answer SFD -
Instead of arguing the inarguable, just say - "The God I worship is responsible for some things society considers atrocious..... and I'm ok with that".
No easily seen through excuses, no having to defend the indefensible, no denial, no nothing. It just is what is.
And just think, A/As wouldnt have any good argument for that.


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## Spotlite (Mar 18, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> When you say "punish him" for taking your truck, would you kill him for taking it?
> Or maybe just take the truck away so he could actually learn something?


Kill him is an extreme analogy for something human to something spiritual. 

If this “spiritual” thing exist, our flesh / body isn’t what’s important anyway is it?  It’s supposed to be our soul that will spend eternity somewhere that it’s  ultimately wanting to salvage?


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## Spotlite (Mar 18, 2020)

bullethead said:


> In your mind do you truly believe that every single person..unborn to elderly.. (except 8) on the planet was so extremely wicked that death was the only solution? Can you honestly defend a story like that?


The wickedness and number of deaths wasn’t the issue I was addressing, it was the “free will” portion pertaining to letting man have it, then punishing him for using it.

I don’t truly believe all were wicked, I do believe in a just God. Based on my reply to Walt, I do believe if there were innocent “casualties of war” their souls are in the hands of a just God and they’re resting with him.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 18, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> There is a simple answer SFD



Yes.  There is...……….


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## bullethead (Mar 18, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> The wickedness and number of deaths wasn’t the issue I was addressing, it was the “free will” portion pertaining to letting man have it, then punishing him for using it.
> 
> I don’t truly believe all were wicked, I do believe in a just God. Based on my reply to Walt, I do believe if there were innocent “casualties of war” their souls are in the hands of a just God and they’re resting with him.


"Casualties of war"?
According to the stories you believe, the god you worship drowned EVERYTHING but a boat full of animals and 8 people. Nobody outside of a few hundred miles ever even heard of Yahweh and he drowned them anyway according to the stories. There was no war. He looked into everyone's hearts and drowned them anyway.
Sick and twisted entity. You can have him and put up with his psychopath ways. You can make all the excuses to justify his actions in the book you use.
I am glad that you are courageous enough to admit it.


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## bullethead (Mar 18, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Kill him is an extreme analogy for something human to something spiritual.
> 
> If this “spiritual” thing exist, our flesh / body isn’t what’s important anyway is it?  It’s supposed to be our soul that will spend eternity somewhere that it’s  ultimately wanting to salvage?


Sinners dont go to heaven Spotlite


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## Spotlite (Mar 18, 2020)

bullethead said:


> "Casualties of war"?
> According to the stories you believe, the god you worship drowned EVERYTHING but a boat full of animals and 8 people. Nobody outside of a few hundred miles ever even heard of Yahweh and he drowned them anyway according to the stories. There was no war. He looked into everyone's hearts and drowned them anyway.
> Sick and twisted entity. You can have him and put up with his psychopath ways. You can make all the excuses to justify his actions in the book you use.
> I am glad that you are courageous enough to admit it.


Casualties of war is just a generalization statement to describe innocent victims. Nothing more was intended for the description, especially to state it was a war. It actually agreed with what you were saying about those that were not wicked. ?


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## Spotlite (Mar 18, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Sinners dont go to heaven Spotlite


I’m not putting them anywhere except the hands of God. I don’t get to decide where they go. You’re leaning towards them being in the burn pit. 

If all this is real, according to the story that was before the cross. Salvation before and after the cross are not the same. It really doesn’t matter if it’s true or not for the point I’m making, what’s important is just what I said. Don’t determine where they went before the cross, based on the requirements of what’s laid out as a plan of salvation after the cross. 
The story said he was a just God. All you and I can do is believe that, or not.


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## bullethead (Mar 18, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> I’m not putting them anywhere except the hands of God. I don’t get to decide where they go. You’re leaning towards them being in the burn pit.
> 
> If all this is real, according to the story that was before the cross. Salvation before and after the cross are not the same. It really doesn’t matter if it’s true or not for the point I’m making, what’s important is just what I said. Don’t determine where they went before the cross, based on the requirements of what’s laid out as a plan of salvation after the cross.
> The story said he was a just God. All you and I can do is believe that, or not.


Actions speak louder than words.
All we have to go on is what the stories say happened, not what may happen later, not what might happen, not what or where all the murdered who have been dead and nobody knows where they are but may end up in a better place after a 2nd coming.


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## Spotlite (Mar 18, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Actions speak louder than words.
> All we have to go on is what the stories say happened, not what may happen later, not what might happen, not what or where all the murdered who have been dead and nobody knows where they are but may end up in a better place after a 2nd coming.


Here we go again


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## Spotlite (Mar 18, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Actions speak louder than words.
> All we have to go on is what the stories say happened, not what may happen later, not what might happen, not what or where all the murdered who have been dead and nobody knows where they are but may end up in a better place after a 2nd coming.


I’m not trying to prove anything . Just stating that you’re analyzing two eras of time and using only one to guess at the punishment / reward for another.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 18, 2020)

Hey WADDAMS!
I noticed you had a post in one of the Firearms forums. 
I don't know if you've seen it but we have a thread here titled "Besides the Bible" that might interest you and maybe want to contribute to.
Sorry for the interruption and now back to our regularly scheduled programming.....


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## bullethead (Mar 19, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> I’m not trying to prove anything . Just stating that you’re analyzing two eras of time and using only one to guess at the punishment / reward for another.


I'm only using one area of reality.


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## Spotlite (Mar 19, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I'm only using one area of reality.


On a different note of “reality” but on topic of the thread - y’all keep yourselves safe during this outbreak.

Fortunately, we work from home 40% of the time, on the road 60% so I’m off the road for at least two weeks to catch up. But, there are those that will be affected financially. And, fortunately I have a ton of meat / vegetables, but I’m already running into folks that didn’t make it to the store in time to get enough supplies.

Whatever you do for prayer, good luck, vibes, best wishes, just keep these that are in need now, and those that will face some hard financial times in mind.


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## bullethead (Mar 19, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> On a different note of “reality” but on topic of the thread - y’all keep yourselves safe during this outbreak.
> 
> Fortunately, we work from home 40% of the time, on the road 60% so I’m off the road for at least two weeks to catch up. But, there are those that will be affected financially. And, fortunately I have a ton of meat / vegetables, but I’m already running into folks that didn’t make it to the store in time to get enough supplies.
> 
> Whatever you do for prayer, good luck, vibes, best wishes, just keep these that are in need now, and those that will face some hard financial times in mind.


Thank you. Stay safe. Stay Healthy. And help your neighbors. 
Best of health to all.


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 24, 2020)

The preacher said it. Sunday morning, my wife was streaming the church service and referring to the virus, the preacher said we don’t need to worry because God’s got this. I wonder how the families of the victims of Corona virus feel about that statement.


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## Israel (Mar 24, 2020)

"Who knows O wife whether thou shalt save thy husband?"


Are you asking if some things are more easily said with (possibly yet) no appearance of _skin in the game_?

My wife is a believer, and she's got more skin in the game than most anyone I know...she remains married without complaint to me.

Is your wife a believer, too?


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## Juan De (Mar 24, 2020)

Just read up on this thread. So I have a thought to present and I ll start with a question. This is directed in the direction of those that say there isn’t a God. If you are married or have a girl friend you want them to love you why? Not trying to stir up anything but for me to illustrate a point I must begin with this question.


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 24, 2020)

Juan De said:


> Just read up on this thread. So I have a thought to present and I ll start with a question. This is directed in the direction of those that say there isn’t a God. If you are married or have a girl friend you want them to love you why? Not trying to stir up anything but for me to illustrate a point I must begin with this question.


Why do we want our spouse or significant other to love us? Isn’t love for each other the foundation of a relationship?


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## Juan De (Mar 24, 2020)

It’s a choice because it’s what they want to do not something to have to do. Every one can think of a time in there life when they had to do something and it was something that was forced and you didn’t have a choice / heart not in it. If our spouses had to be with us because they had 2 instead of wanted and chose to it wouldn’t be as special or mean anything. The Bible says that no signs will be given. The church is also referred to as the bride of Christ. God wants to be loved by all, but not because people have 2 but because you want 2. If there was no choice you would be a slave more or less. I am one of the worst people to ever live, Jesus changed my life, so He can for anyone.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 25, 2020)

Barouque Brass said:


> The preacher said it. Sunday morning, my wife was streaming the church service and referring to the virus, the preacher said we don’t need to worry because God’s got this. I wonder how the families of the victims of Corona virus feel about that statement.


How they feel about that statement is up to God as well.

The vast majority of professing "Christians" don't believe that God controls anything. But what they don't believe is also God's doing.


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## Baroque Brass (Mar 25, 2020)

gemcgrew said:


> How they feel about that statement is up to God as well.
> 
> The vast majority of professing "Christians" don't believe that God controls anything. But what they don't believe is also God's doing.


Then why do so many churches and so many Christians say God is in control? Soon after the coast of Japan was devastated by a massive tsunami, killing approximately 10,000 people and destroying a nuclear power plant which released radiation, I saw a church with GOD IS IN CONTROL on the sign by the road. I’d guess all those Japanese people would like to know why god sent a tsunami to wreak so much havoc.


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## Spotlite (Mar 25, 2020)

Barouque Brass said:


> The preacher said it. Sunday morning, my wife was streaming the church service and referring to the virus, the preacher said we don’t need to worry because God’s got this. I wonder how the families of the victims of Corona virus feel about that statement.


People, preachers, church goers, non believers, etc., will all have their own little sayings / opinions about this virus and anything else that this world encounters - their view of God (for or against) isn’t changing because of the virus, either. 

To read a Bible that plainly states it rains on the just and unjust.......

Bottom line with most “religious” statements / beliefs is to be aware and reject the fear. Be wise, but no need in panicking. 

I’m being smart about it, but I’m not stocking up toilet tissue and glued to the news worrying........


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## Spotlite (Mar 25, 2020)

Barouque Brass said:


> Then why do so many churches and so many Christians say God is in control? Soon after the coast of Japan was devastated by a massive tsunami, killing approximately 10,000 people and destroying a nuclear power plant which released radiation, I saw a church with GOD IS IN CONTROL on the sign by the road. I’d guess all those Japanese people would like to know why god sent a tsunami to wreak so much havoc.


If you believe in God, how can one think he’s not in control? Just read the story of Job.


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## Israel (Mar 25, 2020)

Barouque Brass said:


> Then why do so many churches and so many Christians say God is in control? Soon after the coast of Japan was devastated by a massive tsunami, killing approximately 10,000 people and destroying a nuclear power plant which released radiation, I saw a church with GOD IS IN CONTROL on the sign by the road. I’d guess all those Japanese people would like to know why god sent a tsunami to wreak so much havoc.



Why would you guess that?


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## Israel (Mar 25, 2020)

gemcgrew said:


> How they feel about that statement is up to God as well.
> 
> The vast majority of professing "Christians" don't believe that God controls anything. But what they don't believe is also God's doing.


I knew I could use more joy. I just didn't know much.


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## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

On the one hand god chooses to allow this virus to do its work because of equity and justice. On the other hand we are cancelling our church service to avoid it. Explain that one to me.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> On the one hand god chooses to allow this virus to do its work because of equity and justice. On the other hand we are cancelling our church service to avoid it. Explain that one to me.


Causation.


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## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> On the one hand god chooses to allow this virus to do its work because of equity and justice. On the other hand we are cancelling our church service to avoid it. Explain that one to me.


How do you know the cause ? (Equity and justice )

Churches are to obey the law of the land as well. While I struggled at first of holding live stream services, common sense let’s me know that our Pastor made the right decision in doing our part. 

All this does is prove that those looking, needing, already have, etc., excuses / reasons to not go will use any of them against the church.


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## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> How do you know the cause ? (Equity and justice )
> 
> Churches are to obey the law of the land as well. While I struggled at first of holding live stream services, common sense let’s me know that our Pastor made the right decision in doing our part.
> 
> All this does is prove that those looking, needing, already have, etc., excuses / reasons to not go will use any of them against the church.



Post #62 says god chooses not to wipe out the virus because it’s a matter of justice and equity. Apparently sparing humans from this virus which for some reason they deserve would be an act of injustice and inequity. Which leaves one to wonder why christians are cancelling services in an effort to avoid receiving what they believe god considers a just reward for what they have earned? For that matter why would they pray for divine intervention to spare them or others from the same just reward?


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