# "Hard Verses"



## christianhunter (Jan 10, 2010)

For a lack of a better name for the thread,I chose the name of a book I once had.Verses in the Bible that divide Believers.The one that comes to mind for me is.-Revelation 22:19-"and if anyone takes away from the words of the Book of this Prophesy,GOD shall take away his part from the Book Of Life,from the Holy City,and from the things which are written in this Book."

Some Denominations use this verse,among others to argue the lose of Salvation.I can't understand a true Believer,who would do such a thing.Does anyone else have verses that may be hard to understand,for others or maybe divisive?

There is only one way for THE WORD OF GOD to be taken,and that is the way that it is said.


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## dawg2 (Jan 10, 2010)

Well, since you opened the door: I have someone who comes into mind that has REMOVED books from the Bible.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 10, 2010)

removed books from the bible, or gave us our bible?   

Hebrews 10:26 was a verse that concerned me for quite some time....till I studied it out.

As to verses that show one can 'lose' salvation, I've got quite a few, but I'll wait to see what others have to say.

Bandy


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## christianhunter (Jan 10, 2010)

dawg2 said:


> Well, since you opened the door: I have someone who comes into mind that has REMOVED books from the Bible.



Well, I know where you are going with this Brother.If we keep it civil,and in a Christian manner,I think all will go well.


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## dawg2 (Jan 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Well, I know where you are going with this Brother.If we keep it civil,and in a Christian manner,I think all will go well.



I am always civil.  I just can't see where people reconcile that verse you quoted and justify removing books from the Bible.  What made him different from someone doing that today?


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## Lowjack (Jan 10, 2010)

If you keep it on Context you will read the verse applies to the prophecies in revelation and not the entire "Bible" which is what some interpret. It says THIS Prophecy"


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## christianhunter (Jan 10, 2010)

dawg2 said:


> I am always civil.  I just can't see where people reconcile that verse you quoted and justify removing books from the Bible.  What made him different from someone doing that today?



"Universally Accepted"is what I lean to.As far as removals and the like,I'm not that well intune with that.Maybe I should be,I don't know.Why do they call them the apocralyptic Books?
BTW you most certainly are always civil.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Does anyone else have verses that may be hard to understand,for others or maybe divisive?
> 
> There is only one way for THE WORD OF GOD to be taken,and that is the way that it is said.



The very words of Christ are ignored by good Christians who are bent on "figuring out" what Christ "really" meant.

Dozens of verses are routinely ignored and misused.

Example:  Matt 28:19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 

Example:  Mark 16:15And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 
16"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 

*Man says:  "Jesus didn't really mean a person had to be baptized."
"What Jesus really 'meant' was............................"
"When Mark 16:16 says "....has been baptized shall be saved" Jesus definitely didn't mean it that way'.

Those are just examples.
We do it all the time.
Rather than simple read and do, as you suggest, our human thinking forces us to 'make it relevent'.

I agree with you.  There's only one way to read and accept God's word.  Exactly as it's written.

Not long ago, someone pointed out a verse in the Bible that forbids us having Bible classes at church.
I don't recall the verse.  It was obviously a bogus understanding anyway.  A verse taken out of context so it would serve another purpose.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 10, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> If you keep it on Context you will read the verse applies to the prophecies in revelation and not the entire "Bible" which is what some interpret. It says THIS Prophecy"



But shouldn't it go without says, we cannot add to or take from God's word?

It is what it is?


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## Ronnie T (Jan 10, 2010)

Another hard verse.

Matthew 5:29"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hel l.


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## Israel (Jan 11, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Another hard verse.
> 
> Matthew 5:29"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hel l.



OK...let's take this verse in light of all the things we know Jesus taught about sin...most assuredly including those things he spoke through his apostles and prophets.

Now, you'd still have the left eye...no?
What about the hand?

Go ahead and cut the offending one off.
We'd still have the other one left to sin with.

What is Jesus "really" saying?

Sin is not in the body parts...it's not in any part that a man can reach and remove or change himself...so I am left to despair of my own ability to avoid sin...if I cut out my tongue, if I cut off all my limbs...even if I "give my body to be burned..."
I am utterly helpless and hopeless if I look to myself to do anything righteous at all. 

There's a saying in the world "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king"

But what does the scripture teach?

Isaiah 42:19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant?

Blind to anything and everything except the glory of God. Deaf to everything but his word.

In the land where men boast of what they see, and think they know, the blind man reigns.


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## gtparts (Jan 11, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> But shouldn't it go without says, we cannot add to or take from God's word?
> 
> It is what it is?




Deuteronomy 8:2-4
 2And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

 3And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

 4Thy raiment waxed not old upon thee, neither did thy foot swell, these forty years.



Isaiah 1:19-20

 19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

 20But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. 

Do we even have the power to alter that which proceeds out of the mouth of God? One of the points in another thread raised by LJ concerning the Hebrew language was the recognition that words are frequently more than an assemblage of letters to communicate a single concept and grouped to express an idea. 

How much more should we understand that the _Ruach Elohim_ is THE breath and THE word and THE spirit....... and THE life! 

It does not contain power.......it IS power. We and everything that is, was created by the ruach of God and is sustained by the sole same.

How foolish to think we can do anything of ourselves to advance or thwart the sovereign will of God. Gamaliel was spot on. If God is not in it, it (whatever that might be) is already less than nothing. If God is in it, nothing can stop it.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 11, 2010)

Israel said:


> OK...let's take this verse in light of all the things we know Jesus taught about sin...most assuredly including those things he spoke through his apostles and prophets.
> No!  Let's take this verse within the context of the chapter in which it was spoken, rather than transporting it to another.
> 
> 
> ...



I don't for one moment suggest that Jesus intended a person to rip his eye out so that he could no longer use it in his search for wealth or naked women.
Wouldn't you agree that in the context of how verse 29 is used, Jesus is pointing out His will that Israel turn from their evil ways and return to God?????

31"It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; 
32but I say who ever divorces his wife except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. 

 33"Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS......' 
34"But I say to you, make no oath at all........., 
37"But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil. 

38"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' 
39"But I say to you,......whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 

40"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 

41"Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 

42"Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. 

43"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 
44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 
45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;....... 

46"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 

47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 

48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. 

All of those are words of command from the Christ.
That there are expectations.
That people must take those expectations seriously.

Expectations.  

There have always been expectations.
There will always be expectations from God........... and there will be forgiveness for those who seek it.

*Do you disagree Bro of mine?
By the way, it was 17 degrees in N. Florida this morning.


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## Israel (Jan 11, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> I don't for one moment suggest that Jesus intended a person to rip his eye out so that he could no longer use it in his search for wealth or naked women.
> Wouldn't you agree that in the context of how verse 29 is used, Jesus is pointing out His will that Israel turn from their evil ways and return to God?????
> 
> 31"It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE';
> ...



I don't disagree that God has expectations of his creation.
And I don't disagree that if sin were anywhere but in a heart that doesn't love God, and God left man to that heart as his sole testimony in the day of judgment, man has no hope whatsoever.
David ate the shewbread...which it was not lawful for him to do...let's share a piece.

Yep, I'm looking forward to a great deal of global warming.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 11, 2010)

More Controversy.

1 Timothy 2:15
But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

I feel certain that women are not saved by having  babies.
They are saved by the blood of Jesus.
I would imagine this verse is connected to Eve and her sin, but what is it doing here in 1 Tim 2:15.

The placement of this verse has frankly always puzzled me.


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## gtparts (Jan 11, 2010)

1 Timothy 2:15 (Young's Literal Translation)

 15
and she shall be saved through the child-bearing, if they remain in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety. 

1Timothy 2:15 (The Message)

 11-15
I don't let women take over and tell the men what to do. They should study to be quiet and obedient along with everyone else. Adam was made first, then Eve; woman was deceived first—our pioneer in sin!—with Adam right on her heels. On the other hand, her childbearing brought about salvation, reversing Eve. But this salvation only comes to those who continue in faith, love, and holiness, gathering it all into maturity. You can depend on this. 


1 Timothy 2:15 (Amplified Bible)

15
Nevertheless [the sentence put upon women of pain in motherhood does not hinder their souls' salvation, and] they will be saved [eternally] if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self-control, [saved indeed] [a]through the Childbearing or by the birth of the divine Child.

Seems that Young's Literal Translation is not very helpful, but as you can see from the two renderings above, they give some insight into what may have been easily understood in the original. This is the main reason I check different Bible translations.


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## THREEJAYS (Jan 11, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> The very words of Christ are ignored by good Christians who are bent on "figuring out" what Christ "really" meant.
> 
> Dozens of verses are routinely ignored and misused.
> 
> ...



Amen Brother,it sure says it.I know many who would call being baptized a work of man,I say it is being obedient to the Word.No different in my mind than confessing before man,repenting or believing and it certainly doesn't cheapen Jesus's death on the cross as I've also heard it said.


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## crackerdave (Jan 11, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Deuteronomy 8:2-4
> 2And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
> 
> 3And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
> ...



I'll just thoe in a big "AMEN!" rat there,and leave this'un alone!


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## brkbowma (Jan 12, 2010)

Here's one to chew on.

Hebrews 10:26 (NLT),
                                       "Dear friends, if we delberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins."

So by this verse, When I got saved, all my sins that were commited in the past were washed away, but, if I go on deliberately sinning, those sins are not covered by the blood of Jesus, therefore "revoking" salvation.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 12, 2010)

brkbowma said:


> Here's one to chew on.
> 
> Hebrews 11:26 (NLT),
> "Dear friends, if we delberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins."
> ...



Hebrews 10:26


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 12, 2010)

brkbowma said:


> Here's one to chew on.
> 
> Hebrews 11:26 (NLT),
> "Dear friends, if we delberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins."
> ...



I brought this verse up in my first response on this thread.   I, too, thought that it meant 'revoked' salvation for many years, until I read a few articles concerning it.   The context of the verse is Jews who had left 'the Law', had converted to Christianity, but then after some time, decided the Christ was not the Messiah and wanted to go back to Judaism.   Paul was saying that there was no going back.

If anyone thinks this is incorrect please feel free to share...


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## brkbowma (Jan 12, 2010)

I can't recall the verse, but isn't there one that states that it is better for one to have not known the Lord at all, than to have known Him and turned away? I've always heard that one too.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 12, 2010)

brkbowma said:


> I can't recall the verse, but isn't there one that states that it is better for one to have not known the Lord at all, than to have known Him and turned away? I've always heard that one too.



2 Peter 2:21 - For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

May this is what you are thinking about?   Sounds like a warning to me...


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## brkbowma (Jan 12, 2010)

I believe I will try to heed that warning.


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## gtparts (Jan 12, 2010)

brkbowma said:


> Here's one to chew on.
> 
> Hebrews 11:26 (NLT),
> "Dear friends, if we delberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins."
> ...





BANDERSNATCH said:


> Hebrews 10:26



I don't see in this passage (Hebrews 11:26) where the saved are the ones being addressed.

 Upon hearing the truth, we come to the knowledge that sin is abhorrent to God and will be punished. Now, whether  we accept Christ's substitution for us, in that punishment, is a different matter. If we continue in sin, that is, sin is still our lifestyle, then salvation is not, can not be ours. If we turn from sin, making confession and repenting of it, we may accept Christ's death on the cross as payment for our sin, believe that He was resurrected on the third day and is the risen Son of God, then our salvation is secure in the hands of our Lord and Savior. God, the Holy Spirit has then begun a good work in you and is faithful to complete that work. If that work was never started, then there was no salvation to lose.

One can not be saved and continue to live in willful disobedience. To continue unchanged, clearly points to not having been saved in the first place.

Your conclusion (in blue) is the part in error, not the scripture. If it were not in error, then your conclusion, in effect, would be denying God's desire or ability to keep His promise.

Scripture tells us that those whom the Father has placed in the Son's hand will not be lost. The perseverance of the Christian is not an act of the person's will, but an act of God, indwelling that person.


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## Jeffriesw (Jan 12, 2010)

gtparts said:


> I don't see in this passage (Hebrews 11:26) where the saved are the ones being addressed.
> 
> Upon hearing the truth, we come to the knowledge that sin is abhorrent to God and will be punished. Now, whether  we accept Christ's substitution for us, in that punishment, is a different matter. If we continue in sin, that is, sin is still our lifestyle, then salvation is not, can not be ours. If we turn from sin, making confession and repenting of it, we may accept Christ's death on the cross as payment for our sin, believe that He was resurrected on the third day and is the risen Son of God, then our salvation is secure in the hands of our Lord and Savior. God, the Holy Spirit has then begun a good work in you and is faithful to complete that work. If that work was never started, then there was no salvation to lose.
> 
> ...


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 12, 2010)

Hebrews 6 says that we can 'fall away' if we are not diligent, even after being completely saved and enjoying the Holy Spirit.

Here, Paul gives a harsh warning to Christians.    Their end, like thorns and briers, is to be burned.

A christian can come to the point where they no longer believe in Jesus, if Satan has his way with them.


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## tell sackett (Jan 12, 2010)

sigh


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## pileit (Jan 12, 2010)

gtparts said:


> I don't see in this passage (Hebrews 11:26) where the saved are the ones being addressed.
> 
> Upon hearing the truth, we come to the knowledge that sin is abhorrent to God and will be punished. Now, whether  we accept Christ's substitution for us, in that punishment, is a different matter. If we continue in sin, that is, sin is still our lifestyle, then salvation is not, can not be ours. If we turn from sin, making confession and repenting of it, we may accept Christ's death on the cross as payment for our sin, believe that He was resurrected on the third day and is the risen Son of God, then our salvation is secure in the hands of our Lord and Savior. God, the Holy Spirit has then begun a good work in you and is faithful to complete that work. If that work was never started, then there was no salvation to lose.
> 
> ...




You are so right!!!


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## gtparts (Jan 12, 2010)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Hebrews 6 says that we can 'fall away' if we are not diligent, even after being completely saved and enjoying the Holy Spirit.
> 
> Here, Paul gives a harsh warning to Christians.    Their end, like thorns and briers, is to be burned.
> 
> A christian can come to the point where they no longer believe in Jesus, if Satan has his way with them.



As Christians, we can fail to mature in Christ, according to His will, through our own actions or inactions. Does this mean we can lose God's salvation? Absolutely not! 

"Falling away" is not the same as "losing ones salvation". Since "losing ones salvation" is an impossibility, "falling away" must be something else. It describes the lowest point to which a Christian can descend. Loss of joy, broken fellowship, a life that no longer bears "fruit". But God does not, will not abandon us.  His love and faithfulness exceeds our ability to comprehend; it overrides the frailty of our human reasoning. 

God can be counted on to do one of three things.

1) He will draw us back to Himself through circumstance or the intervention of others or both.

2) He will "put us on the shelf" and the honor of service that was to be ours will be given to another.

3) He will "call us home" if our lives become so detrimental to others that His will is best served by taking us out of this world.

Your last comment says a great deal, "...if Satan has his way with them.". 

Why would you think that this could even be a possibility if Jesus has promised not to leave or forsake us....ever? 

If it is possible, He lied and as Paul said, we, of all men, are to be pitied the most, for our faith is in vain.

But, praise God, Jesus is the truth, the way, and the life. 

Know that your misunderstanding of this passage is not held against you, but if you teach others this notion of a flimsy salvation and weak God, you risk jeopardizing the eternal destiny of the lost, who would listen to such nonsense. 

While we may be weak, He is strong.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 12, 2010)

Because, as Paul warns us elsewhere, Satan is seeking who he may devour.  Christians were warned that Satan would attack them.   

Do you think that it's possible for a Christian to ever reject Christ later in life?   Does a Christian's mind become immune to false teachings, (evolution/atheism for example) so that they never have to worry about falling?

I've been a Christian for many many years, and have had several instances where I could have abandoned faith over a lie.   (that may be a PM discussion though)    My faith was rocked....and had it not been for a ministry like Ravi Zacharias' I'd have been shipwrecked.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 12, 2010)

I believe that the only one who can remove a Christian from God's hand is the Christian himself....when they come to reject Christ, as the Jews in Hebrews were doing.

I think eternal security is just something we may just have to 'agree to disagree' on....    it's irrelevant anyway, if one believes his entire life, IMO.


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## gtparts (Jan 12, 2010)

I am always concerned with the possibility of "falling away".

I am never concerned about losing God's salvation.

If one can reject Him, that person never knew Him.....in the same way that Christ will one day respond to some crying, "Lord, Lord....". "Depart from me . I never knew you."


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 12, 2010)

gtparts said:


> If one can reject Him, that person never knew Him.....



Where does this come from?    This is what I disagree with.  I believe that one can later reject Christ, even though they have been saved.    We still have free will after accepting Christ. 

almost circular reasoning to me....    

No offense guys...it's just one point we'll probably always disagree on.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 12, 2010)

gtparts said:


> As Christians, we can fail to mature in Christ, according to His will, through our own actions or inactions. Does this mean we can lose God's salvation? Absolutely not!
> 
> "Falling away" is not the same as "losing ones salvation". Since "losing ones salvation" is an impossibility, "falling away" must be something else. It describes the lowest point to which a Christian can descend. Loss of joy, broken fellowship, a life that no longer bears "fruit". But God does not, will not abandon us.  His love and faithfulness exceeds our ability to comprehend; it overrides the frailty of our human reasoning.
> 
> ...



I'm just curious if you know something that hasn't appeared to me.


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## earl (Jan 12, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> For a lack of a better name for the thread,I chose the name of a book I once had.Verses in the Bible that divide Believers.The one that comes to mind for me is.-Revelation 22:19-"and if anyone takes away from the words of the Book of this Prophesy,GOD shall take away his part from the Book Of Life,from the Holy City,and from the things which are written in this Book."
> 
> Some Denominations use this verse,among others to argue the lose of Salvation.I can't understand a true Believer,who would do such a thing.Does anyone else have verses that may be hard to understand,for others or maybe divisive?
> 
> There is only one way for THE WORD OF GOD to be taken,and that is the way that it is said.





It appears ,ch, that this is a ''hard'' question. Many seem to take THE WORD OF GOD in different directions.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 12, 2010)

earl said:


> It appears ,ch, that this is a ''hard'' question. Many seem to take THE WORD OF GOD in different directions.



For most everything other than John 3:16, that will always be true.   From the time the disciples died off, until now, scripture has been misunderstood and misinterpreted.   

It's a shame, but unavoidable.

Good thing God made salvation super easy and simple.


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## gtparts (Jan 12, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> I'm just curious if you know something that hasn't appeared to me.



Dear friend, I made no biblical reference, no assertion as to scriptural support. It is the observation of how God has responded to those who have "fallen away" ( extended family members, former church attenders, and other acquaintances) and a simple categorization of the results.
 Perhaps there is a fourth or fifth I have not considered.

Hasn't appeared to you? Perhaps you would like to take a stroll among some with whom you had contact during your ministry.
 Think through those you have met over the years who slacked off and fell far below the potential with which they were blessed. If I missed something....let me know.



P.S. God can be counted on for many things, but these three I have witnessed with my own eyes, with regards to the subject at hand, i,e, falling away.


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## gtparts (Jan 12, 2010)

> Originally Posted by gtparts
> If one can reject Him, that person never knew Him.....in the same way that Christ will one day respond to some crying, "Lord, Lord....". "Depart from me . I never knew you."





BANDERSNATCH said:


> Where does this come from?    This is what I disagree with.  I believe that one can later reject Christ, even though they have been saved.    We still have free will after accepting Christ.
> 
> almost circular reasoning to me....
> 
> No offense guys...it's just one point we'll probably always disagree on.





The Jesus I know is so compelling, so winsome........

Perhaps I can answer a question with a few questions, with your permission.

Is the Jesus you know, your risen Lord, your Savior, someone you could reject? 

Would He, in turn, reject you? He said He would not. 

God's love for His own is unconditional and everlasting. It is not dependent on us. If He loved you while you were a sinner, would He love you less, after He saved you? Once we are His, He is the keeper of our salvation. It is not ours to do with as we please.

Does the inspired word of God mean anything to you?

Was John just blowing smoke when he wrote under inspiration the following?

1 John 5:13 (King James Version)

 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

One last point.....when I declared Jesus as my Lord and Savior, I gave up my free will to Him. Don't hold anything back if He is Lord.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 12, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Was John just blowing smoke when he wrote under inspiration the following?
> 
> 1 John 5:13 (King James Version)
> 
> "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."



Absolutely not!  He wasn't blowing smoke.
He wrote the 5 chapters of Spirit inspired words so that a person could examine and know for themselves whether they were living for Christ or not.
There's some very interesting things brought out in those writings also.


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## gtparts (Jan 12, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Absolutely not!  He wasn't blowing smoke.
> He wrote the 5 chapters of Spirit inspired words so that a person could examine and know for themselves whether they were living for Christ or not.
> There's some very interesting things brought out in those writings also.



You got complete agreement from me on that point!!!


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## Ronnie T (Jan 12, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Dear friend, I made no biblical reference, no assertion as to scriptural support. It is the observation of how God has responded to those who have "fallen away" ( extended family members, former church attenders, and other acquaintances) and a simple categorization of the results.
> Perhaps there is a fourth or fifth I have not considered.
> 
> Hasn't appeared to you? Perhaps you would like to take a stroll among some with whom you had contact during your ministry.
> ...



God can always be counted on.
And we'll never become perfect.
But we must, MUST, be disciples.
And God won't make you do that.


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## christianhunter (Jan 12, 2010)

gtparts said:


> As Christians, we can fail to mature in Christ, according to His will, through our own actions or inactions. Does this mean we can lose God's salvation? Absolutely not!
> 
> "Falling away" is not the same as "losing ones salvation". Since "losing ones salvation" is an impossibility, "falling away" must be something else. It describes the lowest point to which a Christian can descend. Loss of joy, broken fellowship, a life that no longer bears "fruit". But God does not, will not abandon us.  His love and faithfulness exceeds our ability to comprehend; it overrides the frailty of our human reasoning.
> 
> ...



Brother,that is one of the best explanations of eternal security,I have ever read or heard.


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## christianhunter (Jan 12, 2010)

It was starting to look like this was going to be an off topic discussion on eternal security.If that is it,so be it.Matter of fact it is not off topic at all is it?
This has been argued for a long time.John 3:16 says it all for me,and there are no clift hangers.


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## Big7 (Jan 12, 2010)

dawg2 said:


> I am always civil.  I just can't see where people reconcile that verse you quoted and _*justify removing books from the Bible.*_  What made him different from someone doing that today?



Think I just put something like that in another thread...


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## Big7 (Jan 12, 2010)

1 Cor. 1:10. I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no *schisms* among you: but that you be perfect in mind and in the same judgement.

This seems a "hard one" for some folks...


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 13, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Is the Jesus you know, your risen Lord, your Savior, someone you could reject?



Yes, it's possible.   I was headed there once myself.   Deception and lies were taking a toll.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 13, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> It was starting to look like this was going to be an off topic discussion on eternal security.If that is it,so be it.Matter of fact it is not off topic at all is it?
> This has been argued for a long time.John 3:16 says it all for me,and there are no clift hangers.



I agree, CH.   As long as one believes that Jesus was God's Son and that He rose from the dead, they are saved.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 13, 2010)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I agree, CH.   As long as one believes that Jesus was God's Son and that He rose from the dead, they are saved.



You must mean more than that.

Satan believes those things.

What is it within us that causes us not to be like Satan?


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## tell sackett (Jan 13, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> You must mean more than that.
> 
> Satan believes those things.
> 
> What is it within us that causes us not to be like Satan?


I agree, even the demons believe and tremble.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 13, 2010)

They (the devil and his minions)  have no choice but to believe.   Their's isn't faith...it's knowledge...having seen.


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## tell sackett (Jan 13, 2010)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> They (the devil and his minions)  have no choice but to believe.   Their's isn't faith...it's knowledge...having seen.


Bandy, no offense, but I think(fwiw) that you're drawing a mighty fine line in between this post and your last one.

I absolutely have faith that Christ is the risen Lord, but I also have knowledge, gained through God's word, of this also. There has to be repentance of and confession of sin for a person to be saved.


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## Madsnooker (Jan 13, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> Bandy, no offense, but I think(fwiw) that you're drawing a mighty fine line in between this post and your last one.
> 
> I absolutely have faith that Christ is the risen Lord, but I also have knowledge, gained through God's word, of this also. There has to be repentance of and confession of sin for a person to be saved.



I think what Bandy is trying to say is Satan believes becuase he actually was with God before being cast down. We believe, not because we have seen but by faith.

As far as one losing his salvation, I can't speak with absolute knowledge, but from studying it, it seems one can. Paul warns against it many times while speaking to the church. I just have a hard time believing that if it was not possible there would be so many references to "falling away"(someone said this doesn't really mean becoming unsaved. To me, that is treading on thin ice), or "being blotted out of the book of life", etc.  I thought the only way you get your name in the book of life was to be saved.

 I do think losing your salvation is extremely hard to do, but possible. I do not go around judging or giving my view on this so it is a mute point as far as I'm concerned but thought I would add my thoughts.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 13, 2010)

Madsnooker said:


> I think what Bandy is trying to say is Satan believes becuase he actually was with God before being cast down. We believe, not because we have seen but by faith.
> 
> As far as one losing his salvation, I can't speak with absolute knowledge, but from studying it, it seems one can. Paul warns against it many times while speaking to the church. I just have a hard time believing that if it was not possible there would be so many references to "falling away"(someone said this doesn't really mean becoming unsaved. To me, that is treading on thin ice), or "being blotted out of the book of life", etc.  I thought the only way you get your name in the book of life was to be saved.
> 
> I do think losing your salvation is extremely hard to do, but possible. I do not go around judging or giving my view on this so it is a mute point as far as I'm concerned but thought I would add my thoughts.



You make some very good points.

Our Christian lives are to be lived like Christ.  Hint:  Christ-Like.  We strengthen each other, admonish each other(help keep each other straight).
Our Lord and Savior will deal with eternity.


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## brkbowma (Jan 14, 2010)

You know, I pray that all that believes "once saved, always saved" make it to Heaven. But there ain't no way that somebody that has been saved, that truely gave their life to God at some point in their life, and then turns from Godly living  (even years later) and lives like the devil, will make it to Heaven. Who ever teaches that doctrine are false phrophets, imo. Jesus warned us of false phrophets that would come to deceive.


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## gtparts (Jan 14, 2010)

brkbowma said:


> You know, I pray that all that believes "once saved, always saved" make it to Heaven. But there ain't no way that somebody that has been saved, that truely gave their life to God at some point in their life, and then turns from Godly living  (even years later) and lives like the devil, will make it to Heaven. Who ever teaches that you can are false phrophets, imo. Jesus warned us of false phrophets that would come to deceive.



Let me ask you a few questions,.... if you don't mind.

Do you ever find yourself concerned (worried) about the possibility of losing your salvation....becoming unsaved by this process of falling away?

If you are not worried, why not? 
You say it is possible.

If you are worried, what do you do about it?

If your works can "unsave" you, what does that say about the basis of your salvation to start with?


You say, 





> But there ain't no way that somebody that has been saved, that truely gave their life to God at some point in their life, and then turns from Godly living  (even years later) and lives like the devil, will make it to Heaven.



Am I to gather from this that God's gift of salvation by grace becomes our responsibility to maintain or lose by virtue of our works? If so, then salvation is a "faith AND works" based proposition.... faith to receive it and works to keep it. Then the next question seems to be, how much is works and how much  is faith? 
See where I am going with this?

When Christ said, "Thy faith has made thee whole.", what did he mean?  

"You mess up and you will be blind again,... your leprosy will return, ...your hand will wither next week, ...your legs will become useless once more."

Or did he say, " Your daughter is alive, but you better mind your "P"s & "Q"s or she goes back to taking a dirt nap."

You see, eternal life begins at the point of salvation and because it is a promise of God and eternal in nature, it is kept, maintained, preserved by God, not us. If it is a gift to us, it is unearned in the first place and if it is eternal, it lasts forever. If it ever terminates for any reason, it would not be eternal, would it?

The concept of "once saved always saved" has this unfortunate feature and that is, that man foolishly assumes he can throw the gift of salvation away. It is not your salvation or mine, but God's salvation for us.

David said this before Jesus' incarnation, "Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation..."  "   thy salvation" 

While we may lose the joy.....while it seems absent to observers....while we may think it no longer ours.... it is His salvation. 

And while you may say, "But there ain't no way that somebody that has been saved, that truely gave their life to God at some point in their life, and then turns from Godly living  (even years later) and lives like the devil, will make it to Heaven.",  Jesus says, "Yes,....way."


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## tell sackett (Jan 14, 2010)

It is God the Spirit who seals us at the moment of redemption, it is God the Father who holds us in His hands. How can any one of us break His hold? Is there anyone that strong? His word plainly says that we have eternal life , that Christ died once for all, He's never going back to the cross. That's good enough for me.


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## Madsnooker (Jan 14, 2010)

gtparts said:


> If your works can "unsave" you, what does that say about the basis of your salvation to start with?
> 
> 
> You say,
> ...



Peter 1:10 -"Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for AS LONG AS YOU PRACTICE THESE THINGS, you will never STUMBLE; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you." Peter is saying Christianity is something that must be PRACTICED in order to qualify for our eternal inheritance. This DOES NOT MEAN your were saved by works, but after accepting his free gift, there are requirements of how you live as a Christian. We are not saved because of our good works, but we are saved to do the good works of Him who called us.





Notice also 2 Peter 2:20-22 -"For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ(clearly meaning being truely saved), they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known the way of righteousness, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

These are the type (there are many more) of scriptures that are clear in my mind, that one can give the gift back to God (free will). I don't know how you could interprit 2 Peter 2:20-22 any other way?

Again, I'm not an expert on this but just offering what I read in scripture.

I absolutely agree salvation is a free gift of grace that we are given just as the Garden of Eden was a free gift given to Adam. But God gave Adam some guidelines and, if not meet, had consequences.


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## pileit (Jan 14, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> It is God the Spirit who seals us at the moment of redemption, it is God the Father who holds us in His hands. How can any one of us break His hold? Is there anyone that strong? His word plainly says that we have eternal life , that Christ died once for all, He's never going back to the cross. That's good enough for me.



My friend you are so right anything less would be denying the power of God.  There is none other that can pluck us out of his hands.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 14, 2010)

Yep, we're the only ones that can put ourselves in His hands by trusting Him, and we are the only ones who can take ourselves out by once again disbelieving Him!   

Went to a funeral yesterday.   I don't envy preachers who have to do funerals.   How do you prepare for a funeral when you don't know if the one who has passed was saved?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 14, 2010)

Madsnooker said:


> Notice also 2 Peter 2:20-22 -"For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ(clearly meaning being truely saved), they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known the way of righteousness, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."



I agree, Snook.   These were truly 'saved' individuals...

Wonder what it means when it says "the last state has become worse for them than the first"?     What could be worse than 'unsaved with no eternal life'?


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## gtparts (Jan 14, 2010)

Madsnooker said:


> Peter 1:10 -"Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for AS LONG AS YOU PRACTICE THESE THINGS, you will never STUMBLE; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you." Peter is saying Christianity is something that must be PRACTICED in order to qualify for our eternal inheritance. This DOES NOT MEAN your were saved by works, but after accepting his free gift, there are requirements of how you live as a Christian. We are not saved because of our good works, but we are saved to do the good works of Him who called us.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Please read the first 19 verses preceding 2 Peter 2:20-22 and tell me again you believe that the ones Peter is describing are saved.

 Peter's warning is clear. These are people who have heard about the Gospel  of Christ, yet have never turned their lives over to Him. They are deceived by the Great Deceiver, Satan, into believing that merely knowing the stories and history of Jesus is sufficient for salvation. It is not reflected in their behavior and God knows it is not evident in their hearts, yet they claim to be Christians. The terror of Peter's warning is that by misrepresenting the life of a child of God, these people are leading others to eternal destruction.

Dear brother, consider whether God would have His children worrying about where they will spend eternity after He sent His Son, Jesus, to redeem them. 

As surely as Jesus is the Prince of Peace, there is a "prince of worry" and the only thing he likes better than causing saved people to question where they stand spiritually is keeping people from accepting Christ as Lord and Savior in the first place. If he can't keep 'em lost, well, maybe he can render them ineffective with worry and confusion.

Tell you what, read up and find out what Jesus says about "salvation", "eternal life", and check out the 17th chapter of John. If the way you understand 2 Peter conflicts with what Jesus says, it's probably how you understand 2 Peter that needs more study.

Grace and peace to you.


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## gtparts (Jan 14, 2010)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I agree, Snook.   These were truly 'saved' individuals...
> 
> Wonder what it means when it says "the last state has become worse for them than the first"?     What could be worse than 'unsaved with no eternal life'?



It means that these people would have been better off if they had not deceived those unaware with the deception by which they were taken.

You really think these guys were saved????



2 Peter 2:1-22 (Contemporary English Version)

2 Peter 2
False Prophets and Teachers
 1Sometimes false prophets spoke to the people of Israel. False teachers will also sneak in and speak harmful lies to you. But these teachers don't really belong to the Master who paid a great price for them, and they will quickly destroy themselves. 2Many people will follow their evil ways and cause others to tell lies about the true way. 3They will be greedy and cheat you with smooth talk. But long ago God decided to punish them, and God doesn't sleep.

    4God did not have pity on the angels that sinned. He had them tied up and thrown into the dark pits of Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- until the time of judgment. 5And during Noah's time, God did not have pity on the ungodly people of the world. He destroyed them with a flood, though he did save eight people, including Noah, who preached the truth.

    6God punished the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah [a] by burning them to ashes, and this is a warning to anyone else who wants to sin. 7-8Lot lived right and was greatly troubled by the terrible way those wicked people were living. He was a good man, and day after day he suffered because of the evil things he saw and heard. So the Lord rescued him. 9This shows that the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their sufferings and to punish evil people while they wait for the day of judgment.

    10The Lord is especially hard on people who disobey him and don't think of anything except their own filthy desires. They are reckless and proud and are not afraid of cursing the glorious beings in heaven. 11Although angels are more powerful than these evil beings, * even the angels don't dare to accuse them to the Lord. 12These people are no better than senseless animals that live by their feelings and are born to be caught and killed. They speak evil of things they don't know anything about. But their own corrupt deeds will destroy them. 13They have done evil, and they will be rewarded with evil.

   They think it is fun to have wild parties during the day. They are immoral, and the meals they eat with you are spoiled by the shameful and selfish way they carry on. [c] 14All they think about is having sex with someone else's husband or wife. There is no end to their wicked deeds. They trick people who are easily fooled, and their minds are filled with greedy thoughts. But they are headed for trouble! 15They have left the true road and have gone down the wrong path by following the example of the prophet Balaam. He was the son of Beor and loved what he got from being a crook. 16But a donkey corrected him for this evil deed. It spoke to him with a human voice and made him stop his foolishness.

    17These people are like dried up water holes and clouds blown by a windstorm. The darkest part of Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- is waiting for them. 18They brag out loud about their stupid nonsense. And by being vulgar and crude, they trap people who have barely escaped from living the wrong kind of life. 19They promise freedom to everyone. But they are merely slaves of filthy living, because people are slaves of whatever controls them.

    20When they learned about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they escaped from the filthy things of this world. But they are again caught up and controlled by these filthy things, and now they are in worse shape than they were at first. 21They would have been better off if they had never known about the right way. Even after they knew what was right, they turned their backs on the holy commandments that they were given. 22What happened to them is just like the true saying,

   "A dog will come back

   to lick up its own vomit.

   A pig that has been washed

   will roll in the mud."


Well??*


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 14, 2010)

Yep, just like the pig was washed clean, these had been made clean.    Just as saved as anyone.    How does anyone "escape from the filthy things of this world"?

I'll have to look up that Holman Christian Standard Bible, since it is one of the most accurate translations, to see what it says about these verses.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 14, 2010)

I found a nice discussion of 2 Peter 2:20 online....

http://bible.cc/2_peter/2-20.htm

I found the comment under the "People's New Testament" (no telling where this version came from though) to be interesting.    

"That this is possible is taught in many places."


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## tell sackett (Jan 14, 2010)

Madsnooker, I have a question I'd like to hear your answer to. If you are saved then lose your salvation, and you are saved again, how is your sin debt paid?


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## gtparts (Jan 14, 2010)

I'll say this and let this one go.

2 Peter 2 is dealing with "seekers", who, after having an interest in Jesus and the salvation He freely offers, decide that they love the "darkness" more than the Light and so, they desert the person and teachings of Jesus, leading others away also. 
Peter compares the spiritual condition of those who never are exposed to the Gospel (the ignorant) to those exposed to the true path of righteousness and who choose to turn back (the apostate), leading others to destruction.

My prayers go out to all who believe and yet, remain so uncertain of their salvation.

As for me, I am utterly convinced by the Word and the Holy Spirit, that, while a saint may lose his joy, His eternal salvation is held in trust by God Almighty. When one does an unbiased study of the Word, the apparent conflict, between the passages that support the eternal security of the believer in Christ and those that appear to indicate that salvation can be lost, can only be resolved by a correct understanding of those latter passages. I encourage all those on this thread to visit or revisit this subject regardless of your present stance. While it is important, if each remains in Christ and He in each of us, our stance on eternal security will not disqualify any of us from heaven. My major concern is not so much for those that have it wrong, though that is a concern, but for those who are yet to come to Christ or have recently come and who will be taught in error.

As a teacher of the Gospel, it is a grave matter to misinstruct someone under your or my teaching. I hope you take that responsibility as seriously, as I do. 

Grace and peace to you.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 14, 2010)

Again, as I've said many times before on this forum, I'm amazed at the number of good, well meaning Christians that will ignore one verse in order to uphold another.

The Bible clearly writes of the safety of God's children being held firmly in God's hand.  We can have confidence in that.

The Bible also clearly writes of the consequences of a person exchanging their love of God for the love of the world.
Heb 10 told us that if a Jew was converted to Jesus Christ and later decided to return to Judaism rather than the blood of Christ, that they had turned from the only thing that could save them.

It's like the parable of the prodigal son.  As told by Jesus.
The Father always waited.  He would have waited until kingdom-come.  But the son had to return.  The son knew where the father was.  The father never turned away.  His hand was always outstretched.  But the son had to return.  If the son hadn't returned he'd still be in the pig pen (sorry pigpen).

There is no fear of the serving Christian being shocked to find that their salvation is not secure.
The fear is of the one who left the church, and Christ, 15 years ago but the family is still saying: "I know he isn't living right, murdering, beating his wife, stealing, but he's a Christian so God will save him".
That family believes that because someone once told them  "once-saved-always-saved".

Rather than that person being taught to stop trampling underfoot the blood of Jesus, he's told, "You wuz saved when you wuz 14 so don't worry about it.  God will keep you safe in his hands".

And one day, Christ will say to him:  "not all who say unto me Lord Lord will enter into heaven, but he who does the will of My Father".

Not perfection, for there is only perfection in Christ.
But seeking.  One must seek.

If a person is seeking Christ, they should never doubt their salvation.

And that's the end of me on these hard verses.


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## thedeacon (Jan 14, 2010)

gtparts said:


> I'll say this and let this one go.
> 
> 2 Peter 2 is dealing with "seekers", who, after having an interest in Jesus and the salvation He freely offers, decide that they love the "darkness" more than the Light and so, they desert the person and teachings of Jesus, leading others away also.
> Peter compares the spiritual condition of those who never are exposed to the Gospel (the ignorant) to those exposed to the true path of righteousness and who choose to turn back (the apostate), leading others to destruction.
> ...



You have just ask me to do an improtant study and I promise you with all earnestly I will do just that but in return I ask you to do the same thing as open mindedly as I do. We can pray for each other to reach the truth as we study.

Is that a fair request?


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## brkbowma (Jan 15, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Again, as I've said many times before on this forum, I'm amazed at the number of good, well meaning Christians that will ignore one verse in order to uphold another.
> 
> The Bible clearly writes of the safety of God's children being held firmly in God's hand.  We can have confidence in that.
> 
> ...



Very well put Ronnie. Thanks


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 15, 2010)

gtparts said:


> 2 Peter 2 is dealing with "seekers", who, after having an interest in Jesus



I think this is where we disagree.   As illustrated in most every translation referenced in the link I provided, these weren't just 'seekers', they had 'accepted' Jesus and were clean....a point of which I'd think any without a denominational bias would agree.   These were clean...and had escaped...something that having 'an interest' in Jesus will never do for someone.

I am certain of my salvation, as long as I 'hold fast my confidence to the end' as Paul states.    We have to believe until the end....


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## gtparts (Jan 15, 2010)

thedeacon said:


> You have just ask me to do an improtant study and I promise you with all earnestly I will do just that but in return I ask you to do the same thing as open mindedly as I do. We can pray for each other to reach the truth as we study.
> 
> Is that a fair request?



Agreed. 

May I suggest Understanding Eternal Security
 by Dr. Charles Stanley as something you might like to include in your study?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 15, 2010)

I'll say this in closing guys.....

In my opinion, your position is a dangerous variant of Pascal's Wager....

IMO, it is safer to believe that one can lose their salvation if they come to denounce Jesus, than for one to believe that, having accepted Jesus once in life, they can't lose salvation even if they come to say "Jesus was just a normal man and was not resurrected".     It's possible for someone to come to that point....as Paul was warning the Hebrews of this very thing.....leaving Christ and going back to the Law.


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## gtparts (Jan 15, 2010)

Those who are willing to study the matter of the security of the believer might want to examine Romans 6: 5-7, Ephesians 4: 17-27, and Colossians 3: 1-10, also. And if you struggle with understanding the KJV, you might try the CEV, NLT, and HCSB.

Peace.


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## tell sackett (Jan 15, 2010)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Yep, we're the only ones that can put ourselves in His hands by trusting Him, and we are the only ones who can take ourselves out by once again disbelieving Him!


Bandy, I have to disagree with you. We don't put ourselves into His hands; He takes us into His hands when we accept the gift He offers. If we believe we can take ourselves out of His hands, are we not making our power greater than His?

If we don't believe He can hold us, we might as well take a pen and mark through verses such as Phil.1:6 and 1Jn.5:13. The promise of these verses would be useless.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 15, 2010)

I just so happened to have Charles Swindoll's booklet titled 'Eternal Security' here at my desk and just read through it.   He echoes most of what you guys have stated....and alluded to 'problem verses'...but didn't explain them, and there was no discussion of 2 Peter 2:20.   

Does Charles Stanley's book address this scripture?   I'll Google it....with an open mind, I promise.....to see what is being said about this verse from 'your' side of the debate.


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## christianhunter (Jan 15, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Agreed.
> 
> May I suggest Understanding Eternal Security
> by Dr. Charles Stanley as something you might like to include in your study?



I will second that one.Dr. Stanley started out as a Pentacostal.He worried for years about losing his Salvation.He explains in detail,and backs it with Scripture,all throughout the book.


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## christianhunter (Jan 15, 2010)

Eternal Security is really not debatable.You believe it or you don't,like speaking in tongues.These two issues have divided TRUE Christian Denominations for a long time.In memory of my uncle T,those who believe you can lose your salvation.The next time you witness someone accept THE LORD as thier Savior.Take a baseball bat and kill them with it,that way you know they went to Heaven.That is what my Great Uncle always told his friends who believed you could lose Salvation.My uncle died at The Alter of our Church,giving Praise and witnessing.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 15, 2010)

found this commentary on Hebrews 6.   Just wondering what your thoughts were on it....

http://www.jesuswalk.com/hebrews/apostasy.htm

Apostasy....sounds like a whole new topic.


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## tell sackett (Jan 15, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Again, as I've said many times before on this forum, I'm amazed at the number of good, well meaning Christians that will ignore one verse in order to uphold another.I can't argue with you there. It can probably be easily pointed out where I've done it
> 
> The Bible clearly writes of the safety of God's children being held firmly in God's hand.  We can have confidence in that.Absolutely agree
> 
> ...


 Ronnie, I respect your knowledge of the scriptures and I have no doubt that you are much more knowledgeable than I am, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm still proud to call you my brother in Christ though.


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## gtparts (Jan 15, 2010)

At the heart of this discussion as it relates to 2 Peter 2 is the question of exactly what "knowledge" those addressed there actually had of Salvation through Christ. The Greek used here is _epignosis_ or what we would call "head knowledge". (Knowing what the qualifications of being a Muslim are, does not make you a Muslim.)

 If we are to correctly characterize the "Christians" referenced as genuinely saved, we would expect the writer of Hebrews to use the Greek word  _gnosis_, indicating a relational knowledge, i.e. those who have a genuine relationship with Christ.

Please check out the following.



More material on the subject.....

http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/etsec.html

That's all for now. Thanks for the great participation.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 15, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> Ronnie, I respect your knowledge of the scriptures and I have no doubt that you are much more knowledgeable than I am, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm still proud to call you my brother in Christ though.



I appreciate those words but don't be so sure of my knowledge.  I got my convictions the same way you got yours.
We're both moving ourselves along toward heaven, influenceing lives with Christ as we go.


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## pileit (Jan 15, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> I will second that one.Dr. Stanley started out as a Pentacostal.He worried for years about losing his Salvation.He explains in detail,and backs it with Scripture,all throughout the book.



I bought a copy of Dr. Stanley's book on eternal security years back and was impressed enough to get a second copy to share with others.  I am convinced anyone that reads this book with an open mind and is not afraid of standing corrected will agree with Dr. Stanley on the eternal security of the believer.


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## Madsnooker (Jan 15, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Please read the first 19 verses preceding 2 Peter 2:20-22 and tell me again you believe that the ones Peter is describing are saved.
> 
> Peter's warning is clear. These are people who have heard about the Gospel  of Christ, yet have never turned their lives over to Him. They are deceived by the Great Deceiver, Satan, into believing that merely knowing the stories and history of Jesus is sufficient for salvation. It is not reflected in their behavior and God knows it is not evident in their hearts, yet they claim to be Christians. The terror of Peter's warning is that by misrepresenting the life of a child of God, these people are leading others to eternal destruction.
> 
> ...



I have been saved most of my life and have never worried if I was saved or not BECAUSE I HAVE NOT BEEN DECIEVED AND TURNED AWAY. Not sure how you think I'm full of worry about my salvation because I don't believe "once saved always saved".

I have read the whole chapter and still see in no way fashion or form it changes my thoughts on what he is saying. You don't "escape the defilements of the world" just by hearing about Jesus. I have read multiple commentaries on this verse and most all agree these are saved people. It is rather simple to me. If they were not truely saved then they were sinners period. How could they "return to their previous state" if they were still sinners?


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## Madsnooker (Jan 15, 2010)

gtparts said:


> As a teacher of the Gospel, it is a grave matter to misinstruct someone under your or my teaching. I hope you take that responsibility as seriously, as I do.
> 
> Grace and peace to you.



This is exactly why after studying this topic I would never tell someone they have eternal security. There is just way to much scripture giving warning to christians. If you want to believe that these people really probably weren't christians for one reason or another, that's ok with me.

This topic doesn't make me upset or even feel divided with my fellow christian brother at all. I'm just giving my opinion. Believe me, I'm extremely open to once saved always saved, why would I not? It's just, at this point, God has not shown me that yet. If I'm interpreting wrong than I pray God gives me insight to truely understand. I can only hope others feel the same.

The good news is, no matter what side of the fence your on, it's not a requirement for salvation. When we are all sitting around the fire with Jesus in heaven, he will let us know what any scripture in the Bible truly meant. Something tells me I don't think it will matter then.


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## Madsnooker (Jan 15, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> Bandy, I have to disagree with you. We don't put ourselves into His hands; He takes us into His hands when we accept the gift He offers. If we believe we can take ourselves out of His hands, are we not making our power greater than His?



I disagree, we absolutely put ourselves into his hands by saying the sinners prayer. That is an act on our part. After saying the sinners prayer, THEN he gives us the FREE gift that no one can take away. If it was God that put us in his hand without anything done on our part, Everyone would be a Christian as it is Gods will that all are saved and none parrish. This is scriptural.

Someone is not making his power greater than Gods if he turns away as God gave us free will. I don't believe we get saved and then we no longer have free will. At least scripture has not shown me that yet.


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## Israel (Jan 15, 2010)

There is something God is after in the revelation of Jesus Christ that goes far beyond our meager attempts at deduction from various scriptures.
It has more to do with a good marriage than it does with simply making it into heaven.
Staying in love with the bridegroom is the goal...and all the scriptures...all the warnings, all the exhortations and all the cautions and encouragements are to this very end.
That Paul loved the brethren dearly can any of us doubt?
But his great motivation at all times, in all things was this: that God might receive through him the glory that is his due.
And so he, and the other faithful disciples/prophets/apostles were also concerned with this one thing...our seeing the worthiness of the Lord to have what he so freely sacrificed for, his chosen possession...and in that seeing, render to him the honor do his name.
Many make it to the grave with their wedding ring on their finger...but how many plumb the fullnness of the promise to love, honor, and cherish their beloved.
That is the end to which we are exhorted...


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## Madsnooker (Jan 15, 2010)

pileit said:


> I bought a copy of Dr. Stanley's book on eternal security years back and was impressed enough to get a second copy to share with others.  I am convinced anyone that reads this book with an open mind and is not afraid of standing corrected will agree with Dr. Stanley on the eternal security of the believer.



Have heard him speak many times on the subject. I could care less about being corrected. Dr. Stanley is very good but I don't put all my eggs in his basket if you know what I mean. It is up to us, as christians, to study scripture and no what we believe. Obviously there are great Pastors that help us in our understanding but that doesn't mean everything a great Pastor says is fact and we do not need to study any longer. 

Please don't take offense but it's hard for me to believe you are openminded on this subject with a comment like this, "anyone that reads this book with an open mind and is not afraid of standing corrected will agree with Dr. Stanley on the eternal security of the believer"


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 15, 2010)

Madsnooker said:


> Someone is not making his power greater than Gods if he turns away as God gave us free will. I don't believe we get saved and then we no longer have free will. At least scripture has not shown me that yet.



Even the God closed the door on the ark, Noah still had a window he could crawl out of!    

I, too, Snooker, pray for God's enlightenment on this subject, if I'm in error.    I agree though that it's irrelevant to anyone who is a believer.   The only one who should worry is one who doesn't believe anymore....and they won't worry about it anyway!


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## pileit (Jan 15, 2010)

Madsnooker said:


> Have heard him speak many times on the subject. I could care less about being corrected. Dr. Stanley is very good but I don't put all my eggs in his basket if you know what I mean. It is up to us, as christians, to study scripture and no what we believe. Obviously there are great Pastors that help us in our understanding but that doesn't mean everything a great Pastor says is fact and we do not need to study any longer.
> 
> Please don't take offense but it's hard for me to believe you are openminded on this subject with a comment like this, "anyone that reads this book with an open mind and is not afraid of standing corrected will agree with Dr. Stanley on the eternal security of the believer"



Sir I am not the least bit offended at your remarks.  I am not depending on Dr. Stanley, however if one is willing to accept what the scriptures tell us he supports all his statements with the word of God.  I was a believer in eternal security long before I read his book.  My wife grew up in a church that taught falling from grace and after studying scriptures for herself and seeing the fallacies of it she is like Dr. Stanley the joy of knowing it is irrevoccable was comparable to the day the Lord saved her.  Some have stated that as long as one says the sinners prayer thats all that counts.  I am persuaded one should pray  the sinners prayer for the Lord to hear.  Too many are just saying it.


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## tell sackett (Jan 16, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> I appreciate those words but don't be so sure of my knowledge.  I got my convictions the same way you got yours.
> We're both moving ourselves along toward heaven, influenceing lives with Christ as we go.


Amen brother. May it always be so.


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## tell sackett (Jan 16, 2010)

Madsnooker said:


> I disagree, we absolutely put ourselves into his hands by saying the sinners prayer. That is an act on our part. After saying the sinners prayer, THEN he gives us the FREE gift that no one can take away. If it was God that put us in his hand without anything done on our part, Everyone would be a Christian as it is Gods will that all are saved and none parrish. This is scriptural.
> 
> Someone is not making his power greater than Gods if he turns away as God gave us free will. I don't believe we get saved and then we no longer have free will. At least scripture has not shown me that yet.


Snook, it may sound like I'm splitting spiritual hairs, but I still disagree with you about us putting ourselves into God's hand. We can't, we don't have that power. We only accept the gift, and the Father takes us into His hand and adopts us into His family.

He does give us free will to accept or reject that gift, but I think(and I may be off base with this) that after we are adopted into the family of God, our will is limited in that we are bought by the blood of Christ. Our body and spirit belong to God. We are a purchased possession(1Cor.6:20;Eph.6:14)

I am still curious about what your answer would be to my post #66.

All that being said, I do agree with what you said about not letting a question like this divide us. You are 100% right, and we will get it all explained to us one day by the Master Teacher!


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## Israel (Jan 16, 2010)

It is not unlike the Matrix. (uh oh, using a secular device to show a spiritual truth)
Neo goes to the Oracle.
The Oracle ends up saying..."sorry kiddo"...

We are all gonna hear what we need to hear at the time...
Scriptural gymnastics don't do it.

What about me...what about me...and what about him, what about him?
John 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

Funny, I haven't heard anyone say..."well, even if I end up as one who never belonged to the Lord, I still believe OSAS."


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## Madsnooker (Jan 16, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> Snook, it may sound like I'm splitting spiritual hairs, but I still disagree with you about us putting ourselves into God's hand. We can't, we don't have that power. We only accept the gift, and the Father takes us into His hand and adopts us into His family.
> 
> He does give us free will to accept or reject that gift, but I think(and I may be off base with this) that after we are adopted into the family of God, our will is limited in that we are bought by the blood of Christ. Our body and spirit belong to God. We are a purchased possession(1Cor.6:20;Eph.6:14)
> 
> ...



As to your question about reply #66, I have not actually studied that specifically. A great question. The only debt for sin is Christ crucified. Hebrews 10:26 is what I would rely on as for my first answer for you.


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## Madsnooker (Jan 16, 2010)

Guys,  I very much respect all the opinions given but I feel there is no need for me to continue responding here as we will probably never agree on this. There is no hard feelings what so ever and I will say I do enjoy discussing these issues no matter where anyone stands. We should be able to discuss these things as Christians and no one get offended and I don't believe anyone here has. There is just not much more that can be added at this point and bottom line we are all still Brothers in Christ and that is a good thing.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 16, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> Madsnooker, I have a question I'd like to hear your answer to. If you are saved then lose your salvation, and you are saved again, how is your sin debt paid?



By becoming as the prodigal son.
By returning to the Father who's still standing, as he always does, waiting for the wayward to return to His goodness.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 16, 2010)

Madsnooker said:


> Guys,  I very much respect all the opinions given but I feel there is no need for me to continue responding here as we will probably never agree on this. There is no hard feelings what so ever and I will say I do enjoy discussing these issues no matter where anyone stands. We should be able to discuss these things as Christians and no one get offended and I don't believe anyone here has. There is just not much more that can be added at this point and bottom line we are all still Brothers in Christ and that is a good thing.



My feeling are hurt that anyone would dare disagree with me.
How can that be?


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## tell sackett (Jan 16, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> By becoming as the prodigal son.
> By returning to the Father who's still standing, as he always does, waiting for the wayward to return to His goodness.


Was the prodigal son a believer when he left to go into the far country or when he came to himself?

 Christ died to pay our sin debt once for all; if we have to be saved again, was His sacrifice not suffcient? Does He have to go back to the cross?


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## tell sackett (Jan 16, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> My feeling are hurt that anyone would dare disagree with me.
> How can that be?


I must say that is an absolutely shocking idea.


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## christianhunter (Jan 16, 2010)

Madsnooker said:


> Guys,  I very much respect all the opinions given but I feel there is no need for me to continue responding here as we will probably never agree on this. There is no hard feelings what so ever and I will say I do enjoy discussing these issues no matter where anyone stands. We should be able to discuss these things as Christians and no one get offended and I don't believe anyone here has. There is just not much more that can be added at this point and bottom line we are all still Brothers in Christ and that is a good thing.



No, we will all probably never agree on OSAS.Just like my post above,I dedicated to my Great-uncle T.His idea about the baseball bat was not cruel it was in jest,just to prove a point.If we could lose our Salvation,it would be better for us all to die at Salvation.Falling,failing,sinning is an everyday occurance for us all.The sin unto death as mentioned for the Corinthian Brother who sinned with his fathers wife,and the verses in 1 John about this sin.The sin unto death would be a sort of  double jeopardy,would it not?
Wouldn't we be living in legalism,instead of Grace,if we could lose Salvation?

Who among us all,even beyond this forum,world wide,past,present and future,can say they have not sinned since Salvation?


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## Ronnie T (Jan 16, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> Was the prodigal son a believer when he left to go into the far country or when he came to himself?
> 
> Christ died to pay our sin debt once for all; if we have to be saved again, was His sacrifice not suffcient?let me ask you a question, since I'll already answered this one many times.
> 
> ...




If you put this parable into Spiritual context, which obviously you must, the son was Lost of his own doing and decided to "RETURN" to his loving father who had loved his child even as he turned and left home.


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## Israel (Jan 16, 2010)

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Paul was not as concerned with where he'd appear as where Christ would appear in the affections of the believer.

Why speak of things that are vanity?

Christ is always deconstructing our notions till we see that even when we thought we were caring about him...we may well just be caring about ourselves.


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## gtparts (Jan 16, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> If you put this parable into Spiritual context, which obviously you must, the son was Lost of his own doing and decided to "RETURN" to his loving father who had loved his child even as he turned and left home.




I can tell you this much, the father never disavowed his son. There was nothing that the son could do that would terminate the love of the father or the reality of being his son.
 When God adopts someone into His family, God will not tear up the adoption papers. His only begotten Son paid far too great a price, for now and eternity, for the Father to discard an adopted son or daughter. When God imputes the righteousness of Jesus to our account, He won't back out. His Word is true and His promises are certain! 

Some on this forum have the perspective of the brother who stayed home.....disappointed that His father didn't reject his prodigal son.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 17, 2010)

gtparts said:


> I can tell you this much, the father never disavowed his son. There was nothing that the son could do that would terminate the love of the father or the reality of being his son.
> When God adopts someone into His family, God will not tear up the adoption papers. His only begotten Son paid far too great a price, for now and eternity, for the Father to discard an adopted son or daughter. When God imputes the righteousness of Jesus to our account, He won't back out. His Word is true and His promises are certain!
> 
> Some on this forum have the perspective of the brother who stayed home.....disappointed that His father didn't reject his prodigal son.



The Father will always accept the returning son.


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## pileit (Jan 17, 2010)

gtparts said:


> i can tell you this much, the father never disavowed his son. There was nothing that the son could do that would terminate the love of the father or the reality of being his son.
> When god adopts someone into his family, god will not tear up the adoption papers. His only begotten son paid far too great a price, for now and eternity, for the father to discard an adopted son or daughter. When god imputes the righteousness of jesus to our account, he won't back out. His word is true and his promises are certain!
> 
> Some on this forum have the perspective of the brother who stayed home.....disappointed that his father didn't reject his prodigal son.



a big aman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## pileit (Jan 17, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> The Father will always accept the returning son.




Does he have to save him again or just restore him to fellowship?


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## Jeffriesw (Jan 17, 2010)

gtparts said:


> I can tell you this much, the father never disavowed his son. There was nothing that the son could do that would terminate the love of the father or the reality of being his son.
> When God adopts someone into His family, God will not tear up the adoption papers. His only begotten Son paid far too great a price, for now and eternity, for the Father to discard an adopted son or daughter. When God imputes the righteousness of Jesus to our account, He won't back out. His Word is true and His promises are certain!
> 
> Some on this forum have the perspective of the brother who stayed home.....disappointed that His father didn't reject his prodigal son.


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## tell sackett (Jan 17, 2010)

Ronnie, I'm not trying to be stubborn, but being a fairly new member on here I can't recall ever seeing that question answered. 

As to your question, I would have to say that if I or any person did as you suggest I would have to question whether that person was genuinely saved. Perhaps they might be one of those that prayed a prayer when they wuz 14?

 I cannot for the life of me see anyone who has truly experienced God's mercy and grace turning their back on it. Will there be hard times and trials? Absolutely, He tells us so, but He gives us His covenant promise that He will never leave us or forsake us. That is our assurance. He tells us that He will finish His good work in us. We can't possibly do it, but we can know that He can. To be honest, that's something I struggle with constantly; laying my feeble will and strength aside and letting Him do what He wants instead of trying to do it on my own.


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## Madsnooker (Jan 17, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> No, we will all probably never agree on OSAS.Just like my post above,I dedicated to my Great-uncle T.His idea about the baseball bat was not cruel it was in jest,just to prove a point.If we could lose our Salvation,it would be better for us all to die at Salvation.Falling,failing,sinning is an everyday occurance for us all.The sin unto death as mentioned for the Corinthian Brother who sinned with his fathers wife,and the verses in 1 John about this sin.The sin unto death would be a sort of  double jeopardy,would it not?
> Wouldn't we be living in legalism,instead of Grace,if we could lose Salvation?
> 
> Who among us all,even beyond this forum,world wide,past,present and future,can say they have not sinned since Salvation?



Well, I didn't plan on responding anymore but I had to make sure I wasn't misunderstood. I absolutely don't believe that you lose your salvation simply because you may sin again. I thought this was already discussed but maybe not. As I already said, I believe it to be extremely hard for one to lose his salvation. It's being deceived, and then turning from God, that I believe one can lose his salvation as many of Pauls warnings suggest.

Simply making a mistake or commiting a sin does not require being saved again. OK, that should do it for me.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 17, 2010)

Madsnooker said:


> Well, I didn't plan on responding anymore but I had to make sure I wasn't misunderstood. I absolutely don't believe that you lose your salvation simply because you may sin again. I thought this was already discussed but maybe not. As I already said, I believe it to be extremely hard for one to lose his salvation. It's being deceived, and then turning from God, that I believe one can lose his salvation as many of Pauls warnings suggest.
> 
> Simply making a mistake or commiting a sin does not require being saved again. OK, that should do it for me.



What you say is what I believe the Bible teaches also.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 17, 2010)

pileit said:


> Does he have to save him again or just restore him to fellowship?




All he has to do is repent.  That's what the Son did.
He repented and the Father said:  "My Son has returned."


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## pileit (Jan 17, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> The Father will always accept the returning son.







There is no question he will accept him after repentantance.  I am asking did he have to be saved or regenerated the second time.  I know many Christians that realized they were straying from the Lord and came back for a restoring or to rededicate their life, but they were not lost again.   Some had gone farther away than others by their on addmission.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 17, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> The Father will always accept the returning son.



True, but the point is he had a Father. Those that do not have a father are B A S T E R D S ....chastisement ring a bell?

If I am not His son, He will not chastise me.....chastisement  is not sending a son to He11. He11 is for the unbeliever, I bet there was never a time in the sons journey into the world that he did not remember his father or did he not down deep love his father, but sin carried him into a state that he wanted out of.

  Someone that does not know the love of the Father nor have the Holy Ghost guidence will contiune to eat with the swine and in most cases enjoy it.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 17, 2010)

Ultimately, these decisions won't be make by earthly thinkers or earthly dwellers.

God will choose.  And it will be right.

We can quote scripture, turn them inside out, upside down.
We can beat our chest and see who can speak the loudest but in the end, we are only servants.


In truth, all my comments on this subject are merely what I understand the scriptures to state.  But that isn't the rule by which God will judge by.

God will settle this.


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## christianhunter (Jan 18, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Ultimately, these decisions won't be make by earthly thinkers or earthly dwellers.
> 
> God will choose.  And it will be right.
> 
> ...



Now that is a Thread Stopper,noone can argue that one Ronnie.
AMEN!


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## Big7 (Jan 31, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Again, as I've said many times before on this forum, I'm amazed at the number of good, well meaning Christians that will ignore one verse in order to uphold another.



You got that part right!

That's where "The Bible_* is not*_ for self-interpretation" part comes in.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 1, 2010)

I've got only two things to say, believe it or not....LOL

Nothing can snatch you out of the palm of His hand.
I believe we can fall back into sin of course....most of us sin everyday, even if it's just an unkind word to someone.
But I do believe that if you are truly saved that nothing can snatch you out of the palm of His hand. I could give a 40yr testamony on that one.  We are covered under the blood for our sins of yesterday, today and tomorrow. Should we continue in sin because we are covered, certainly not....I know my convictions and guilt won't let me, besides I love Jesus and I want to do what He wants me to do. I stumble in sin and get back up, only to fall tomorrow, but I'm forgiven....not perfect...just forgiven. Thank you God for your Son Jesus.


And I don't believe you have to be baptized to be saved. If that were the case, no death bed folks would get saved and I just can't fathom that, there's probably plenty of those, too.
I believe baptism is an outward expression of an inward cleansing of the heart and spirit.
I've never known anyone to refuse baptism, but I can't believe Jesus would deny a death bed profession of faith because there was no baptism.....just my opinion of course.

Ok, a couple of looooooong things...LOL


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## Israel (Feb 1, 2010)

It was only, and precisely because _he was a son_ that he had any inclination to return.
The father wasn't looking for just anyone to come down that road...he was looking for his son.

Our waking up to who we are and whose we are is provoked by the spirit of Christ...

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. _Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me._

Matthew 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

The word of Christ, the word of Truth, the gospel of the Kingdom of God is not an attempt to ever try and convince anyone of anything.
It is a clarion call to the elect, sleeping in the dust of the earth (their own bodies), to awaken to the call of their beloved.
If the message is not pure, if the call contains an uncertain sound, God will still awaken his own...but we who still seek to mix self and Christ, will be less than full of joy.

When a man is content to know how absolutely un-needed he is...God begins to reveal how desired he is.
We want to make ourselves important...opposing God who wants to show us how important we are to him.
I am glad God has pity upon the pitiful.


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