# Gimme that old time religion?



## oldfella1962 (May 22, 2022)

wow - I thought the Catholics were bad, but maybe I need to expand my criticism of organized religion. I am not saying Baptist church members or leaders are more likely to be se**** predators than the general public. I am saying that WHEN YOU COVER UP SE**** IMPROPRIETY YOU ARE EQUALLY GUILTY.
But hey, nothing increasing donations can't solve, right? And I'm sure biblical scholars are digging through the good book finding "loopholes" to justify se* crimes.

So much depravity, immorality and evil!  Is it time for god to flood the world again once he scours the land for eight good people?  JUST KIDDING! That flood never happened - it's a fairy tale, so it sure won't happen again, and not because of rainbows as a sign. I would say this whole thing shocks me, but I'm not a very good liar.

Southern Baptist probe: Here's what the bombshell report revealed (houstonchronicle.com)


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## brutally honest (May 22, 2022)

The sexual improprieties are disgusting, but don't neglect the political side of this.  The SBC (along with the Catholic Church) are the favorite whipping boys of the mainstream media.  The MSM despises both because they are the leading church voices against abortion, female pastors, and homosexuality.  The SBC gets extra hate because they are often associated with the Republican Party.


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## oldfella1962 (May 22, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> The sexual improprieties are disgusting, but don't neglect the political side of this.  The SBC (along with the Catholic Church) are the favorite whipping boys of the mainstream media.  The MSM despises both because they are the leading church voices against abortion, female pastors, and homosexuality.  The SBC gets extra hate because they are often associated with the Republican Party.



Politics aside, EVERYBODY should be disgusted that religious organizations (who should, in theory anyway, be of high moral standards) feel that they are above the law and try to cover things up. But I do find it ironic that the Catholic Church is against homosexuality when priests have a thing for altar boys.  Just more religious hypocrisy and disfunction I guess.


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## Spotlite (May 23, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Politics aside, EVERYBODY should be disgusted that religious organizations (who should, in theory anyway, be of high moral standards) feel that they are above the law and try to cover things up. But I do find it ironic that the Catholic Church is against homosexuality when priests have a thing for altar boys.  Just more religious hypocrisy and disfunction I guess.


No, religion is not the blame here. Put the blame where it belongs - on those that do this. These scum bags are not anything that resembles religion. The fat man boiling taters in the kitchen is not always going to be a Chef just because he is in the kitchen boiling taters.

I am always amazed at how everyone understands that there are fakes / imposters in every area of life and they get called out for being such - except in religion. When it comes to religion, it is religion that is the culprit.


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## GT90 (May 23, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> No, religion is not the blame here. Put the blame where it belongs - on those that do this. These scum bags are not anything that resembles religion. The fat man boiling taters in the kitchen is not always going to be a Chef just because he is in the kitchen boiling taters.
> 
> I am always amazed at how everyone understands that there are fakes / imposters in every area of life and they get called out for being such - except in religion. When it comes to religion, it is religion that is the culprit.



The blame should be on those that do it and also on any that cover it up.  I think when it comes to religion, folks jump on board the bashing train because in religion the leaders are telling you how to live and what moral you should live by.  That is a very personal thing.  Hence it gets more scrutiny and bashing when the teacher does not follow his/her own teaching.


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## Spotlite (May 23, 2022)

GT90 said:


> The blame should be on those that do it and also on any that cover it up.  I think when it comes to religion, folks jump on board the bashing train because in religion the leaders are telling you how to live and what moral you should live by.  That is a very personal thing.  Hence it gets more scrutiny and bashing when the teacher does not follow his/her own teaching.


Fakers are on every level and every man is subject to failure. Those covering it up are just as guilty - agreed. But they’re still no reflection of religion, they’re a reflection of failure.


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## oldfella1962 (May 23, 2022)

"Hence it gets more scrutiny and bashing when the teacher does not follow his/her own teaching." - GT 90

as well it should IMHO! Their own teachings are supposedly the word of god.
Shouldn't the combined years of studying and (ideally) living by the morally superior guidance of god's instruction, rules & wisdom make the leaders better people? Shouldn't the effect of living a "good Christian life" be a net positive experience for all involved? Shouldn't everyone's "moral compass" be pointing true north? If not, what is the point of devoting so much time & attention to a church/religion if it doesn't make people act/behave any differently than if they never set foot in a church?


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## GT90 (May 23, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Fakers are on every level and every man is subject to failure. Those covering it up are just as guilty - agreed. But they’re still no reflection of religion, they’re a reflection of failure.



Agreed.  But what about those in religion that believe in predestination or that God controls everything?  If the religion is all about God, and God predestined or controlled the acts of those fakers, where does the blame lie?  I am not saying I agree with this.  Just still working to answer what it seems IMHO is bothering you most about this thread.  And that is religion is getting picked on more for the same actions.


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## oldfella1962 (May 23, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> No, religion is not the blame here. Put the blame where it belongs - on those that do this. These scum bags are not anything that resembles religion. The fat man boiling taters in the kitchen is not always going to be a Chef just because he is in the kitchen boiling taters.
> 
> I am always amazed at how everyone understands that there are fakes / imposters in every area of life and they get called out for being such - except in religion. When it comes to religion, it is religion that is the culprit.



Because religion is allegedly the divine/superior wisdom & guidance from the most powerful being (and creator of) the entire universe. If it is so life changing, then the number of fakes should be almost zero. Hearing and studying the "good news" almost 24/7 should rub off on people to the point that they would never think about systemic cheating, lying, scamming, etc.etc. I'm not saying church leaders should be perfect in every way, or that all church leaders are morally bankrupt. I'm saying if the word of god is so powerful and effective then it should change the hearts & minds of people enough at least to behave better than the non-believer.


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## Spotlite (May 23, 2022)

GT90 said:


> Agreed.  But what about those in religion that believe in predestination or that God controls everything?  If the religion is all about God, and God predestined or controlled the acts of those fakers, where does the blame lie?  I am not saying I agree with this.  Just still working to answer what it seems IMHO is bothering you most about this thread.  And that is religion is getting picked on more for the same actions.


I’m not in disagreement with you, but I don’t agree with predestination in the way that they explain it. I don’t believe God is in sin because scripture is clear - He doesn’t tempt with evil.


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## oldfella1962 (May 23, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t agree with predestination in the way that they explain it. I don’t believe God is in sin because scripture is clear - He doesn’t tempt with evil.



I think I get what you are trying to say, but I could be wrong. God doesn't do "entrapment" where he deliberately lures you in with anything over & above what evil you were planning on your own. Am I correct?


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## GT90 (May 23, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t agree with predestination in the way that they explain it. I don’t believe God is in sin because scripture is clear - He doesn’t tempt with evil.



And therein lies the rub.  There are so many differing views on religion at a high all the way down to low level.  Those views get lumped together by observers.  Similar to the example of multiple police departments or police officers.  When one bad one is exposed, the non-thinking folks generalize and complain about the "police" as seemingly one entity.  I think religion gets treated similarly.


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## Spotlite (May 23, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Because religion is allegedly the divine/superior wisdom & guidance from the most powerful being (and creator of) the entire universe. If it is so life changing, then the number of fakes should be almost zero. Hearing and studying the "good news" almost 24/7 should rub off on people to the point that they would never think about systemic cheating, lying, scamming, etc.etc. I'm not saying church leaders should be perfect in every way, or that all church leaders are morally bankrupt. I'm saying if the word of god is so powerful and effective then it should change the hearts & minds of people enough at least to behave better than the non-believer.


This subject should be an eye opener to those that think man can’t follow after his own lust. Nowhere biblically are we robots. 

The Word of God is strong enough for those that’ll listen to it. When they start looking for justification scriptures they are no longer following the Word of God. 

I condemn the acts that’s the topic of this thread and lumping religion in as a whole is also saying I’m part of what’s condoning it - that’s a false narrative.


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## Spotlite (May 23, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I think I get what you are trying to say, but I could be wrong. God doesn't do "entrapment" where he deliberately lures you in with anything over & above what evil you were planning on your own. Am I correct?


Correct, God doesn’t entrap. He will allow you to commit adultery if that’s your thing, but he isn’t going to ordain it for you.


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## Spotlite (May 23, 2022)

GT90 said:


> And therein lies the rub.  There are so many differing views on religion at a high all the way down to low level.  Those views get lumped together by observers.  Similar to the example of multiple police departments or police officers.  When one bad one is exposed, the non-thinking folks generalize and complain about the "police" as seemingly one entity.  I think religion gets treated similarly.


True


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## ambush80 (May 23, 2022)

Missionary style only.  Otherwise, not real Christian.


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## Danuwoa (May 23, 2022)

Agree with the op.  The idea that atheists are the moral authority and morality police and at the same time can’t be held to anything because they are atheists is beyond tiresome.  It’s just a little too perfect.  A moving target that only atheists can hit.


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## ambush80 (May 23, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Agree with the op.  The idea that atheists are the moral authority and morality police and at the same time can’t be held to anything because they are atheists is beyond tiresome.  It’s just a little too perfect.  A moving target that only atheists can hit.



Much better an unmoving, universal, timeless, infallible dictate inspired by divine revelation and interpreted correctly by men?


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## ambush80 (May 23, 2022)

Atheism has nothing to do with morality.  Just saying....


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## NCHillbilly (May 23, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Agree with the op.  The idea that atheists are the moral authority and morality police and at the same time can’t be held to anything because they are atheists is beyond tiresome.  It’s just a little too perfect.  A moving target that only atheists can hit.


Athiests are certainly no morally better than religious folks. Being a sexual predator is evil, wrong, and reprehensible no matter what religion or lack thereof you follow. When a preacher who is supposed to be a shining example and is telling other folks how they should live  and what they should and shouldn't do does it, though, it somehow just seems a good bit more reprehensible.


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## WaltL1 (May 23, 2022)

A scumbag is gonna be a scumbag regardless of religion, no religion, education, money, upbringing etc. etc. Those things can play a role but if you got the scumbag in you, a scumbag you will be.


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## WaltL1 (May 23, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Atheism has nothing to do with morality.  Just saying....


Exactly. Just like Christianity has nothing to do with morality.
People are people.


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## Danuwoa (May 23, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Athiests are certainly no morally better than religious folks. Being a sexual predator is evil, wrong, and reprehensible no matter what religion or lack thereof you follow. When a preacher who is supposed to be a shining example and is telling other folks how they should live  and what they should and shouldn't do does it, though, it somehow just seems a good bit more reprehensible.


I am with all of that except the little bit more part.  I do t think there is any possible way to make sexually predatory behavior, especially when a child is the victim, worse.  Then again, when cops are crooked it seems worse so I guess the whole position that people are supposed to be able to trust comes into play.  Patterson Hood has written a lot of songs about that very thing.  I trust just about nobody when it comes to my daughter.  A few close family members and a very short list of close friends.  Very short.


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## Danuwoa (May 23, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Atheism has nothing to do with morality.  Just saying....


I feel like I understand that better than some of you do.


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## Spotlite (May 23, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Athiests are certainly no morally better than religious folks. Being a sexual predator is evil, wrong, and reprehensible no matter what religion or lack thereof you follow. When a preacher who is supposed to be a shining example and is telling other folks how they should live  and what they should and shouldn't do does it, though, it somehow just seems a good bit more reprehensible.



Kind of like a Game Warden shooting a deer at night? The act really isn’t more reprehensible, we just had higher expectations for the GW. 

Does he represent law enforcement even if his supervisors covered it up?


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## bullethead (May 23, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Agree with the op.  The idea that atheists are the moral authority and morality police and at the same time can’t be held to anything because they are atheists is beyond tiresome.  It’s just a little too perfect.  A moving target that only atheists can hit.


No Atheist in here or any that I've ever talked to have ever claimed a moral authority, morality police or that they cannot be held to anything.  That assertive claim has always come from believers who are trying to make it seem like it is an atheistic view.
People of all types throughout the history of people have always found ways to be scum. Nobody has a moral advantage or a moral deficit over the other. It makes for good headlines when a supposed trustworthy source makes their bid for scum of the year.


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## NCHillbilly (May 23, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I am with all of that except the little bit more part.  I do t think there is any possible way to make sexually predatory behavior, especially when a child is the victim, worse.  Then again, when cops are crooked it seems worse so I guess the whole position that people are supposed to be able to trust comes into play.  Patterson Hood has written a lot of songs about that very thing.  I trust just about nobody when it comes to my daughter.  A few close family members and a very short list of close friends.  Very short.


I think you would be in the vast minority on the little bit more thing. Sure, it's just as bad, no matter who does it. But, a preacher raping teenage girls, a game warden spotlighting deer, a cop dealing meth, or a nun running a house of ill repute are all going to resonate with most folks more than the average scumbag doing the same thing.


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## oldfella1962 (May 23, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Agree with the op.  The idea that atheists are the moral authority and morality police and at the same time can’t be held to anything because they are atheists is beyond tiresome.  It’s just a little too perfect.  A moving target that only atheists can hit.



You totally lost me here. Who said atheists are the moral authority? Did you mean to say "theists" AKA "believers" are the moral authority?


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## Danuwoa (May 23, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I think you would be in the vast minority on the little bit more thing. Sure, it's just as bad, no matter who does it. But, a preacher raping teenage girls, a game warden spotlighting deer, a cop dealing meth, or a nun running a house of ill repute are all going to resonate with most folks more than the average scumbag doing the same thing.


You’re probably right.  I just don’t understand why that’s so.  I’m not all that smart as you know and I’m certainly not a paragon of virtue my own self but it just never surprises me when people do something rotten or in this case appalling and evil.  Their position doesn’t enter into it to me.  Look at our leadership in this country.  Look how depraved  those people are.  I’ve known law enforcement in my own little county that got caught doing things that were illegal and it wasnt baby stuff either.  We’ve had preachers here get caught with women in their congregation.  How does this shock people?  It happens all the time.  I would think atheists would be less shocked than anyone as they seem to view religion but specifically Christianity as a hustle for the clergy both financially and in terms of influence and prestige and a balm for dumb people who are easily duped to deal with their problems while  making them easy to control and separate from their money.  With that view I would think atheists would expect this sort of thing to happen in such a rotten system overseen by such crass opportunists and evil people for such suckers.

I’m happy when I meet a cop who really does just want to make his community safe and I’m happy when I meet a preacher who seems to be flawed but in it for the right reason.  But I know the snakes within my own heart too so I’m never surprised when somebody held up to be more than the rest of us turns out not to be that.  That doesn’t mean it doesn’t appall me though.  End of sermon.


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## Danuwoa (May 23, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> You totally lost me here. Who said atheists are the moral authority? Did you mean to say "theists" AKA "believers" are the moral authority?


I mean that a quick read through this forum makes a lot of the atheists here appear as if they think that about themselves.  I know none of you believe that but y’all aren’t exactly the most self aware bunch around.


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## NCHillbilly (May 23, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> You’re probably right.  I just don’t understand why that’s so.  I’m not all that smart as you know and I’m certainly not a paragon of virtue my own self but it just never surprises me when people do something rotten or in this case appalling and evil.  Their position doesn’t enter into it to me.  Look at our leadership in this country.  Look how depraved  those people are.  I’ve known law enforcement in my own little county that got caught doing things that were illegal and it wasnt baby stuff either.  We’ve had preachers here get caught with women in their congregation.  How does this shock people?  It happens all the time.  I would think atheists would be less shocked than anyone as they seem to view religion but specifically Christianity as a hustle for the clergy both financially and in terms of influence and prestige and a balm for dumb people who are easily duped to deal with their problems while  making them easy to control and separate from their money.  With that view I would think atheists would expect this sort of thing to happen in such a rotten system overseen by such crass opportunists and evil people for such suckers.
> 
> I’m happy when I meet a cop who really does just want to make his community safe and I’m happy when I meet a preacher who seems to be flawed but in it for the right reason.  But I know the snakes within my own heart too so I’m never surprised when somebody held up to be more than the rest of us turns out not to be that.  That doesn’t mean it doesn’t appall me though.  End of sermon.


Why? It's pure betrayal by someone who you should be able to trust. I've done a lot of things I'm not proud of in my life. I'm also not out there in public pretending to be perfect and preaching to other people about how they should live. If I choose to do that, then I have to hold myself to a higher moral standard and practice better than what I preach, IMO.


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## Danuwoa (May 23, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Why? It's pure betrayal by someone who you should be able to trust. I've done a lot of things I'm not proud of in my life. I'm also not out there in public pretending to be perfect and preaching to other people about how they should live. If I choose to do that, then I have to hold myself to a higher moral standard and practice better than what I preach, IMO.


It’s not that I think you’re wrong it’s just that I know it so often doesn’t work like that.  Sort of a matter of what should happen versus what does happen.


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## oldfella1962 (May 23, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Exactly. Just like Christianity has nothing to do with morality.
> People are people.



Agree that morality is very subjective and varies with culture, experiences, peer pressure, intelligence (to a degree) and even brain chemistry. 
Some say morality can only come from god (their own god of course, not brand X).
If true, I hope they "cherry pick" what godly moral attributes after which they choose to model their behavior. The bible (for example) says that if the groom finds out on his wedding night that his bride is not a virgin, he is to take her to her father's doorstep and stone her to death.   Any takers on that fellas? I didn't think so. 

Yes, that's Old Testament, but the same god is the god of the New Testament. Jesus said that all the Old Testament tenets still applied, and he was a Jew, so he didn't try to reinvent that wheel completely. Granted he also says he has a new covenant, so experts disagree on interpretations. Regardless, God/Jesus never changes, and he still has what seems to be a bronze age mindset. 

I would posit that humans came to understand the advantages of basic morality as they evolved, even before they developed organized religion. Much morality is really common sense, with some variations suited for their societal needs. 

Back to morality, I find the Christian concept of eternal suffering for non-believers repugnant, barbaric, horrific and unfair. God is holy and hates sin, I get it. God shouldn't have to be around sin for eternity, and he earned the right to keep heaven sin-free. So he could just allow his faithful followers into paradise (they earned the right to be with god by being obedient) and not let unbelievers into heaven. But why punish unbelievers for all eternity? Just destroy the sinners and end their consciousness. Heaven would still be sin-free! Everybody wins!


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## Danuwoa (May 23, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Agree that morality is very subjective and varies with culture, experiences, peer pressure, intelligence (to a degree) and even brain chemistry.
> Some say morality can only come from god (their own god of course, not brand X).
> If true, I hope they "cherry pick" what godly moral attributes after which they choose to model their behavior. The bible (for example) says that if the groom finds out on his wedding night that his bride is not a virgin, he is to take her to her father's doorstep and stone her to death.   Any takers on that fellas? I didn't think so.
> 
> ...


This is boring.  Part of why this forum is such a drag is how repetitive it is.  The reasons for y’all’s dislike of Christianity has been hashed and rehashed ad infinitum.


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## OwlRNothing (May 23, 2022)

Honestly, you lost me at "wow - " 

There aren't any original or valid arguments against God that haven't already been tried. Kinda boring, actually.


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## oldfella1962 (May 23, 2022)

bullethead said:


> No Atheist in here or any that I've ever talked to have ever claimed a moral authority, morality police or that they cannot be held to anything.  That assertive claim has always come from believers who are trying to make it seem like it is an atheistic view.
> People of all types throughout the history of people have always found ways to be scum. Nobody has a moral advantage or a moral deficit over the other. It makes for good headlines when a supposed trustworthy source makes their bid for scum of the year.



Very true, but in theory anyway (according to my logic) believers _should_ have a moral advantage! They are taught and bask in god's holy guidance and teachings, often for decades on end. If god's teaching are so great, the experts in these teachings should be shining examples of morality. They are "subject matter experts" in their chosen field. Again, I'm not saying they should be perfect. They are human and everyone makes mistakes. But when a relatively large & powerful long established denomination like the Southern Baptists SYSTEMICALLY COVERS UP CRIMES, SHADY DEALINGS AND QUESTIONABLE BEHAVIOR it raises red flags on their motivations and integrity. 

Let's compare this to the military: if a 20 year old private gets caught breaking rules or just getting drunk and stupid, it's not the same (and shouldn't be considered the same) as a 45 year old General breaking rules or just getting drunk and acting stupid. 
And systemically covering up for the General's behavior is much, much worse than any mistake the General might make. Just my 2 cents.


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## NCHillbilly (May 23, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> It’s not that I think you’re wrong it’s just that I know it so often doesn’t work like that.  Sort of a matter of what should happen versus what does happen.


Yes, it does work like that, very much so. You can see it in everything except religion. And, BTW, I don't dislike Christians by any  means.


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## brutally honest (May 23, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> The bible (for example) says that if the groom finds out on his wedding night that his bride is not a virgin, he is to take her to her father's doorstep and stone her to death.   Any takers on that fellas? I didn't think so.
> 
> Yes, that's Old Testament, but the same god is the god of the New Testament. Jesus said that all the Old Testament tenets still applied, and he was a Jew, so he didn't try to reinvent that wheel completely.



What did Jesus say to the woman caught in adultery?


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## KS Bow Hunter (May 23, 2022)

There should be a special place for all child molesters to die slowly in excruciating pain.  There is possibly nothing more evil.

There isn't nor should there be any tie between profession and morality.  We all get to choose our profession, and we all get to choose our morality.  The two are not interconnected.

Society connects them.

There are moral police, preachers, politicians, accountants, teachers, etc. and there are immoral.  The choice of one's profession does not dictate one's morality nor dictate one is moral.

Professions are about following rules, stated norms.

Morality is about living your life in a certain manner.

One can be immoral, in a high-profile profession and be highly successful by following the rules.

As for the cover up, simply follow the money and the power.  At some point, the leaders of any organization react by trying to control the damage to the reputation of the organization, which is typically a reaction to maintaining power and protecting assets.  This is not surprising, all organizations do it.  Profit or not-for-profit.  The Boy Scouts, the Catholic Church, Penn State, and now the SBC.

Humans are flawed, and while some are moral and have high integrity, others have significant flaws.

No matter what, all child molesters should be staked out on an ant hill in the desert naked.


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## brutally honest (May 23, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> If it is so life changing, then the number of fakes should be almost zero. Hearing and studying the "good news" almost 24/7 should rub off on people to the point that they would never think about systemic cheating, lying, scamming, etc.etc.



Judas walked with Jesus for three years ... and still betrayed Him.  If that can happen then, believers can sin grievously today.


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## oldfella1962 (May 23, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> What did Jesus say to the woman caught in adultery?



He forgave her, and told her to sin no more. But this was not the specific example of "stoning the non-virgin bride" that I mentioned. Then again I'm guessing the Romans wouldn't allow stoning of non-virgin brides, but I'm no expert on Roman law of that period. Jesus didn't generally encourage breaking Roman laws, but you did bring up an interesting question!


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## Spotlite (May 23, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Why? It's pure betrayal by someone who you should be able to trust. I've done a lot of things I'm not proud of in my life. I'm also not out there in public pretending to be perfect and preaching to other people about how they should live. If I choose to do that, then I have to hold myself to a higher moral standard and practice better than what I preach, IMO.


It’s true that we hold some to higher standards because of their positions because of how their actions will affect others.

I think one point being made is the act committed by a preacher is just as wrong as it would have been if an escaped convict committed it, there is no such thing as wronger.

In reality I can see your point, too. It actually can be more reprehensible depending who the violator is.

If the child sex abuse is committed by a stranger there’s a different type of emotional affect than there is if a Father did it to their child. Not only does the child have to deal with the physical part of the abuse and the normal emotions of going through abuse that everyone does, they also have to deal with the emotional affects of losing that trust they had in someone so close that they loved.

A preacher certainly fits the bill of having a close, personal relationship with his congregation.


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## Danuwoa (May 23, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yes, it does work like that, very much so. You can see it in everything except religion. And, BTW, I don't dislike Christians by any  means.


Only in religion?  What about politics?


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## oldfella1962 (May 23, 2022)

"No matter what, all child molesters should be staked out on an ant hill in the desert naked."

YES! Something we all can agree upon.


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## Danuwoa (May 23, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> It’s true that we hold some to higher standards because of their positions because of how their actions will affect others.
> 
> I think one point being made is the act committed by a preacher is just as wrong as it would have been if an escaped convict committed it, there is no such thing as wronger.
> 
> ...


Good post.


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## WaltL1 (May 23, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Agree that morality is very subjective and varies with culture, experiences, peer pressure, intelligence (to a degree) and even brain chemistry.
> Some say morality can only come from god (their own god of course, not brand X).
> If true, I hope they "cherry pick" what godly moral attributes after which they choose to model their behavior. The bible (for example) says that if the groom finds out on his wedding night that his bride is not a virgin, he is to take her to her father's doorstep and stone her to death.   Any takers on that fellas? I didn't think so.
> 
> ...


If the stories are man made, its not too suprising that some of them are repugnant, barbaric, horrific, unfair etc.
Those are all human traits.


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## WaltL1 (May 23, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> It’s true that we hold some to higher standards because of their positions because of how their actions will affect others.
> 
> I think one point being made is the act committed by a preacher is just as wrong as it would have been if an escaped convict committed it, there is no such thing as wronger.
> 
> ...


I think what we are really talking about is "levels of hypocrisy" and how we as humans react to that.
Escaped convict commits a crime - "well what did you expect, he's an escaped convict".
A preacher commits a crime - " thats a 100 times worse because he's a preacher".


----------



## gemcgrew (May 23, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I think one point being made is the act committed by a preacher is just as wrong as it would have been if an escaped convict committed it, there is no such thing as wronger.


There is a difference though, when a preacher does what he tells you he will not do, and the convict does what he tells you he will do.


----------



## gemcgrew (May 23, 2022)

As far as morality is concerned, I have witnessed an Atheist/Agnostic hold the higher standard of behavior within a church.


----------



## Danuwoa (May 23, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> As far as morality is concerned, I have witnessed an Atheist/Agnostic hold the higher standard of behavior within a church.


This is what I was talking about.  This is such nonsense.


----------



## gemcgrew (May 23, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> This is what I was talking about.  This is such nonsense.


I haven't read everything in this thread. What did I miss?


----------



## oldfella1962 (May 23, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> This is what I was talking about.  This is such nonsense.



Why is it nonsense that an atheist/agnostic would have a very high standard of behavior? Jails & prisons are chock full of "believers". 

Most atheists/agnostics are just trying to find the truth. They know (or strongly suspect) that the truth is not in any religious book, so they rely on science & education to point them in the right direction.
The seek the same thing as most believers, they just choose a different path.


----------



## oldfella1962 (May 23, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> If the stories are man made, its not too suprising that some of them are repugnant, barbaric, horrific, unfair etc.
> Those are all human traits.



exactly my point! There is nothing in the Bible/Koran/Torah/etc. that indicates any knowledge or information that wasn't available to the writers at the time. Some people connect dots that are barely there, but nothing solid.


----------



## Danuwoa (May 24, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Why is it nonsense that an atheist/agnostic would have a very high standard of behavior? Jails & prisons are chock full of "believers".
> 
> Most atheists/agnostics are just trying to find the truth. They know (or strongly suspect) that the truth is not in any religious book, so they rely on science & education to point them in the right direction.
> The seek the same thing as most believers, they just choose a different path.


It’s nonsense because it suggests atheists are somehow morally superior.  That’s hinted at here pretty often.  Can you be an atheist and be a nice person?  Yeah.  Does being one mean you’ve got some sort of moral leg up on people who are religious?  Nope.  Your statement is just dumb, man.  Jails are full of believers.  I bet there are more than just a couple in there who don’t believe anything.  This is just the in group/out group thing that is most of what this forum seems like it’s based on.  “We are the truth seekers.  We are the ones who don’t need religion.  People should be more like us.” 

Well that has all the negative qualities associated with religion with none of the positives.  No thanks.  And don’t be too sure that you’re all that good either or all that interested in the “the truth”.  None of us are all that good and we can know that if we examine our own hearts honestly.  You’ll find all kinds of stuff there that isn’t good that you normally won’t admit to yourself and certainly won’t admit to anybody else.  And what does the average person know about truth? Every single one of us lie to ourselves on a daily basis and usually do t even know we’re doing it.  If you believe the stuff you’re saying you’re fooling yourself. Not fooling me though.

The part suggesting atheists are also more intelligent, science and education blah blah blah.  I’m sure that sounds good in your head and makes you feel smart.  It too is nonsense.  The same atheists who lecture Christians about “science” are leading the charge on the idea that men can get pregnant.  Christians didn’t come up with that.  And I’ll put my education against yours any time.  This is so silly.  “My team is smarter than your team.”


----------



## Ruger#3 (May 24, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Back to morality, I find the Christian concept of eternal suffering for non-believers repugnant, barbaric, horrific and unfair. God is holy and hates sin, I get it. God shouldn't have to be around sin for eternity, and he earned the right to keep heaven sin-free. So he could just allow his faithful followers into paradise (they earned the right to be with god by being obedient) and not let unbelievers into heaven. But why punish unbelievers for all eternity? Just destroy the sinners and end their consciousness. Heaven would still be sin-free! Everybody wins!



If you sent your only child to rescue the goobers and he was crucified you might harbor some I’ll will towards them.


----------



## NCHillbilly (May 24, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> This is what I was talking about.  This is such nonsense.


Certainly. Agreed totally. I have known folks with impeccable morals who were both believers, and nonbelievers. I have also known folks of both persuasions with seemingly absolutely no morals. Not believing or believing does not give you magical moral superiority.


----------



## bullethead (May 24, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> If you sent your only child to rescue the goobers and he was crucified you might harbor some I’ll will towards them.


Wasn't crucifixion crucial in the plan? Can you explain why you would think that God could harbor I'll will at anyone for his plan working out as planned?


----------



## Danuwoa (May 24, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Certainly. Agreed totally. I have known folks with impeccable morals who were both believers, and nonbelievers. I have also known folks of both persuasions with seemingly absolutely no morals. Not believing or believing does not give you magical moral superiority.


That’s all I was trying to say.


----------



## bullethead (May 24, 2022)

I don't think Gem was making a statement that included every Atheist/Agnostic head to head with every Believer. It sounds as if Gem has witnessed it happen a time or two, basically telling us that there are no absolutes.


----------



## Danuwoa (May 24, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I don't think Gem was making a statement that included every Atheist/Agnostic head to head with every Believer. It sounds as if Gem has witnessed it happen a time or two, basically telling us that there are no absolutes.


If I got on here and said Christians are more moral than atheists yall would have a freaking baby.


----------



## bullethead (May 24, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> If I got on here and said Christians are more moral than atheists yall would have a freaking baby.


When someone talks in absolutes then they are usually wrong. I don't think Gem was talking in absolutes.

Men can't have babies,  many Atheists know that despite claims otherwise.


----------



## Danuwoa (May 24, 2022)

bullethead said:


> When someone talks in absolutes then they are usually wrong. I don't think Gem was talking in absolutes.
> 
> Men can't have babies,  many Atheists know that despite claims otherwise.


Lotta talking pst each other goes on here.


----------



## bullethead (May 24, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Lotta talking pst each other goes on here.


A lot of words are put into others mouths on here also due to quick interpretation. Asking for a more detailed explanation would clear much of it up. Conversation gets lost in assertions and accusations.


----------



## 660griz (May 24, 2022)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> There should be a special place for all child molesters to die slowly in excruciating pain.  There is possibly nothing more evil.



What if he/she(child molester) asked God for forgiveness after the 'act'? WWJD?


----------



## WaltL1 (May 24, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> It’s nonsense because it suggests atheists are somehow morally superior.  That’s hinted at here pretty often.  Can you be an atheist and be a nice person?  Yeah.  Does being one mean you’ve got some sort of moral leg up on people who are religious?  Nope.  Your statement is just dumb, man.  Jails are full of believers.  I bet there are more than just a couple in there who don’t believe anything.  This is just the in group/out group thing that is most of what this forum seems like it’s based on.  “We are the truth seekers.  We are the ones who don’t need religion.  People should be more like us.”
> 
> Well that has all the negative qualities associated with religion with none of the positives.  No thanks.  And don’t be too sure that you’re all that good either or all that interested in the “the truth”.  None of us are all that good and we can know that if we examine our own hearts honestly.  You’ll find all kinds of stuff there that isn’t good that you normally won’t admit to yourself and certainly won’t admit to anybody else.  And what does the average person know about truth? Every single one of us lie to ourselves on a daily basis and usually do t even know we’re doing it.  If you believe the stuff you’re saying you’re fooling yourself. Not fooling me though.
> 
> The part suggesting atheists are also more intelligent, science and education blah blah blah.  I’m sure that sounds good in your head and makes you feel smart.  It too is nonsense.  The same atheists who lecture Christians about “science” are leading the charge on the idea that men can get pregnant.  Christians didn’t come up with that.  And I’ll put my education against yours any time.  This is so silly.  “My team is smarter than your team.”





> The same atheists who lecture Christians about “science” are leading the charge on the idea that men can get pregnant.


----------



## 660griz (May 24, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> The same atheists who lecture Christians about “science” are leading the charge on the idea that men can get pregnant.


Please post information on what atheist are saying a biological man can get pregnant. I will write them a sternly worded letter and also try to get them to become a Christian where miracles can happen. ie Virgin birth.


----------



## Danuwoa (May 24, 2022)

660griz said:


> Please post information on what atheist are saying a biological man can get pregnant. I will write them a sternly worded letter and also try to get them to become a Christian where miracles can happen. ie Virgin birth.


So you think Christians are pushing transgenderism.  You’re a smart boy.


----------



## 660griz (May 24, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> So you think Christians are pushing transgenderism.  You’re a smart boy.


What? Where did I say that? Where is the information on the atheist that says a biological man can get pregnant?


----------



## Danuwoa (May 24, 2022)

660griz said:


> What? Where did I say that? Where is the information on the atheist that says a biological man can get pregnant?


Hey man if you want to believe you can get pregnant I can’t stop you.


----------



## NCHillbilly (May 24, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Hey man if you want to believe you can get pregnant I can’t stop you.


I think you're confusing athiests with woke urban socialists. Some of them are one and the same, but a lot aren't.


----------



## NCHillbilly (May 24, 2022)

660griz said:


> What if he/she(child molester) asked God for forgiveness after the 'act'? WWJD?


I don't know about Jesus, but I'd put my asbestos-clad foot on his head and stomp him down into the fars of hades, myself.


----------



## Danuwoa (May 24, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I think you're confusing athiests with woke urban socialists. Some of them are one and the same, but a lot aren't.


I don’t believe men can get pregnant but still think I’m the one who follows science.  It ain’t me that’s confused.


----------



## 660griz (May 24, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Hey man if you want to believe you can get pregnant I can’t stop you.


Let me try this again.
What? Where did I say that? Where is the information on the atheist that says a biological man can get pregnant?


----------



## Danuwoa (May 24, 2022)

660griz said:


> Let me try this again.
> What? Where did I say that? Where is the information on the atheist that says a biological man can get pregnant?


Simmer down, grizzy.  What with you believing you’re in a family way I would think you wouldn’t want fluctuations in your blood pressure.  Think of the baby.


----------



## 660griz (May 24, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Simmer down, grizzy.  What with you believing you’re in a family way I would think you wouldn’t want fluctuations in your blood pressure.  Think of the baby.


Ah there we go. I am just waiting on answers for your allegations. No emotions involved. No personal attacks from me...yet.


----------



## Danuwoa (May 24, 2022)

660griz said:


> Ah there we go. I am just waiting on answers for your allegations. No emotions involved. No personal attacks from me...yet.


Oh does that conclude your newest episode of When Bored House Husbands Attack then?


----------



## 660griz (May 24, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Oh does that conclude your newest episode of When Bored House Husbands Attack then?


Attack? LOL Seek therapy.
I do need to get back to work. You will learn about that when you get older.


----------



## Danuwoa (May 24, 2022)

660griz said:


> Attack? LOL Seek therapy.


Well I mean it’s not me who thinks I’m pregnant.


----------



## 660griz (May 24, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Well I mean it’s not me who thinks I’m pregnant.


Well, we know you don't think.


----------



## Danuwoa (May 24, 2022)

660griz said:


> Well, we know you don't think.


I don’t know who “we” are.  The other SJWs who think men can get pregnant I guess.  When are you due?


----------



## furtaker (May 24, 2022)

660griz said:


> Well, we know you don't think.


He's pretty smart, actually.


----------



## Danuwoa (May 24, 2022)




----------



## 660griz (May 24, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I don’t know who “we” are.  The other SJWs who think men can get pregnant I guess.  When are you due?


Anybody reading this thread and you coming to the conclusion that I think I am pregnant. You have a serious issue with reading and comprehension. 
I may have to give birth now. I think I'll flush this one. Stinks.


----------



## Danuwoa (May 24, 2022)

660griz said:


> Anybody reading this thread and you coming to the conclusion that I think I am pregnant. You have a serious issue with reading and comprehension.
> I may have to give birth now. I think I'll flush this one. Stinks.


It came from you so it thinks.


----------



## oldfella1962 (May 24, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> If I got on here and said Christians are more moral than atheists yall would have a freaking baby.



Despite what you may have heard, men cannot get pregnant.


----------



## oldfella1962 (May 24, 2022)

bullethead said:


> When someone talks in absolutes then they are usually wrong. I don't think Gem was talking in absolutes.
> 
> Men can't have babies,  many Atheists know that despite claims otherwise.



Can virgins have babies?  As a general rule of thumb, of course. That one time about 2,000 years ago was a statistical outlier.


----------



## oldfella1962 (May 24, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> View attachment 1153445



How did that....unique individual....get a cloud to land on their head?


----------



## Danuwoa (May 24, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Despite what you may have heard, men cannot get pregnant.


Dont tell me, tell momma griz.


----------



## bullethead (May 24, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Can virgins have babies?  As a general rule of thumb, of course. That one time about 2,000 years ago was a statistical outlier.


My science tells me no.
Others who claim that they follow science believe a virgin can give birth.


----------



## oldfella1962 (May 24, 2022)

bullethead said:


> My science tells me no.
> Others who claim that they follow science believe a virgin can give birth.



The plot thickens! There could have been a "translation" problem from Hebrew to Greek (in a nutshell). Mary could have been a young unmarried woman, but not necessarily a virgin. You can google various arguments and theories about it. One idea posits that Mary was deemed a "virgin" to shoehorn in a fulfilled Jewish prophecy.
It's complicated, but very interesting if you read up on it.


----------



## bullethead (May 24, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> The plot thickens! There could have been a "translation" problem from Hebrew to Greek (in a nutshell). Mary could have been a young unmarried woman, but not necessarily a virgin. You can google various arguments and theories about it. One idea posits that Mary was deemed a "virgin" to shoehorn in a fulfilled Jewish prophecy.
> It's complicated, but very interesting if you read up on it.


Yes, I am familiar with it.
"Alma" in Hebrew means young woman.
Translated into Greek and it became Virgin
Jewish prophecy never was about a Virgin birth. Their Messiah was to be born of human parents and not be God or part God.


----------



## Spotlite (May 24, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Can virgins have babies?  As a general rule of thumb, of course. That one time about 2,000 years ago was a statistical outlier.


Actually yes. Ever heard of artificial insemination?

I doubt that happened back then but the point is all the egg needs is fertilization, the full act isn’t even required. 

If there’s a God such as the one described in the Bible that spoke things into existence then it’s nothing for Him to speak an egg to fertility. 

Then of course there’s always the option of saying I don’t believe in God. But to try to the hands of the “character” described as working miracles to impossibilities of man is senseless. If He’s real, He’s not subject to those parameters and our limitations.


----------



## Spotlite (May 24, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> It’s nonsense because it suggests atheists are somehow morally superior.


If this thread wasn’t intended to show religion as lower morals then religion would not have been mentioned in the title and the cherry picking of scriptures in attempt to question the morals of religion / God would not have brought up.

It’s true, you don’t have to be a believer to have high morals. But being Christian often lands you the title of worshipping something immoral using scriptures.

Outside of that hidden agenda, this thread was pretty good at pointing out the fact that the Catholic Church and Boy Scouts aren’t the only ones with sick men.


----------



## bullethead (May 24, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Actually yes. Ever heard of artificial insemination?
> 
> I doubt that happened back then but the point is all the egg needs is fertilization, the full act isn’t even required.
> 
> ...


Substitute any and every other God and their "if there is such a God(s) as described...." and literally everything is possible as they all meet the same qualifications.
What stands out as What Is rather than What Might Be If....?

In order for a woman to get pregnant artificially or conventionally, an act must occur other than willful thought. Science is pretty firm on that.


----------



## bullethead (May 24, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> If this thread wasn’t intended to show religion as lower morals then religion would not have been mentioned in the title and the cherry picking of scriptures in attempt to question the morals of religion / God would not have brought up.
> 
> It’s true, you don’t have to be a believer to have high morals. But being Christian often lands you the title of worshipping something immoral using scriptures.
> 
> Outside of that hidden agenda, this thread was pretty good at pointing out the fact that the Catholic Church and Boy Scouts aren’t the only ones with sick men.


In all fairness religion is filled with, and admittedly so by man believers in here, with members made up of lower morals. Believers of all walks of life, comprised of misdeeds, self serving lies and everything else negative that is often mentioned in here by believers make up the congregation.  From the lowliest of societies low to supposed representatives of God.
That being said they are no different than believers of any other religion or non believers which makes the point that any organization is only as strong as its weakest link.
Regarding religion itself...none instruct anyone to molest children that I know of. Clergy who diddle children while being representatives of a religion just taints the overall message of any claims of morals coming from a higher being.
I do not know nor have ever known anyone who could live up to being a true example of any moral superiority. Insert every person who has No Belief system or a person in whatever religion you want. There just is no difference.  Yes, as a scale the range varies but nobody is on a moral pedestal despite thinking otherwise. 
Religion muddies the waters by insinuating that one set of believers has an advantage due to the God they worship but the truth is everyone plays on the same field.

I think the thread was to show that religion has no super power of individual morals and actions.


----------



## Spotlite (May 24, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Substitute any and every other God and their "if there is such a God(s) as described...." and literally everything is possible as they all meet the same qualifications.
> What stands out as What Is rather than What Might Be If....?
> 
> In order for a woman to get pregnant artificially or conventionally, an act must occur other than willful thought. Science is pretty firm on that.


I’m not into substituting any and every other god, I’ve ruled them so I don’t have to acknowledge or consider them any longer.

A woman can know no man ever and become  pregnant through artificial insemination. The God of the Bible that spoke things into existence can certainly cause her to become pregnant without the need of a man. He created science and isn’t limited to all that science might know. 

But the other option is simply not believing it which is fine, just using to substantiate non belief is senseless.


----------



## Spotlite (May 24, 2022)

bullethead said:


> In all fairness religion is filled with, and admittedly so by man believers in here, with members made up of lower morals. Believers of all walks of life, comprised of misdeeds, self serving lies and everything else negative that is often mentioned in here by believers make up the congregation.  From the lowliest of societies low to supposed representatives of God.
> That being said they are no different than believers of any other religion or non believers which makes the point that any organization is only as strong as its weakest link.
> Regarding religion itself...none instruct anyone to molest children that I know of. Clergy who diddle children while being representatives of a religion just taints the overall message of any claims of morals coming from a higher being.
> I do not know nor have ever known anyone who could live up to being a true example of any moral superiority. Insert every person who has No Belief system or a person in whatever religion you want. There just is no difference.  Yes, as a scale the range varies but nobody is on a moral pedestal despite thinking otherwise.
> ...


Some good points here. 



> religion has no super power of individual morals and actions.


I can agree.


----------



## bullethead (May 24, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I’m not into substituting any and every other god, I’ve ruled them so I don’t have to acknowledge or consider them any longer.
> 
> A woman can know no man ever and become  pregnant through artificial insemination. The God of the Bible that spoke things into existence can certainly cause her to become pregnant without the need of a man. He created science and isn’t limited to all that science might know.
> 
> But the other option is simply not believing it which is fine, just using to substantiate non belief is senseless.


Well, you have to rule out, pretend, ignore, placefingers in ears/LaLaLa, and not believe in every other God to live in your reality. And I understand it, I really do. Some go one God less than that.

A woman would need to be in on that decision.  Knowing a man or not she isn't waking up preggers without an effort on her part.
Again, many religions claim their gods spoke things into existence. Everything is possible in that line of thought.

Don't you use use the Biblical Vigin birth to substantiate belief? Why wouldn't not believing it is possible substantiate non belief?


----------



## Spotlite (May 24, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Well, you have to rule out, pretend, ignore, placefingers in ears/LaLaLa, and not believe in every other God to live in your reality. And I understand it, I really do. Some go one God less than that.
> 
> A woman would need to be in on that decision.  Knowing a man or not she isn't waking up preggers without an effort on her part.
> Again, many religions claim their gods spoke things into existence. Everything is possible in that line of thought.
> ...


Actually, I’m ok with just telling the Muslim I don’t believe that Allah exist and leaving it right there without explanation. There’s a good reason for that - I’m one of those that don’t buy “I said I believe in God so I’m saved”. There’s more to the experience than that. In reality none of the stories in the Bible really phase me as far as can it happen or did it happen that way - it’s just ok, only God can do that. Once you have that experience I’m talking about you’ve got undeniable proof that you can carry with you.

I get what you’re saying about the woman being in on the decision, I agree. I guess what I’m saying with that is “the act” itself isn’t required.

I don’t use the virgin birth to substantiate my belief, I use it to show how God chose that way since it had to be a sinless person. The sins of the father and being born into sin was not applicable without a natural flesh father.

My meaning of using the impossible according to man to substantiate not believing in something that’s supposed to do the impossible is senseless only means this - I don’t believe in this God that is supposed to do the impossible because this thing they wrote about Him is impossible to do.

I might not be saying it correctly but hopefully someone can explain it better than I did.


----------



## Ruger#3 (May 24, 2022)

“*Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”*


----------



## Danuwoa (May 24, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Actually, I’m ok with just telling the Muslim I don’t believe that Allah exist and leaving it right there without explanation. There’s a good reason for that - I’m one of those that don’t buy “I said I believe in God so I’m saved”. There’s more to the experience than that. In reality none of the stories in the Bible really phase me as far as can it happen or did it happen that way - it’s just ok, only God can do that. Once you have that experience I’m talking about you’ve got undeniable proof that you can carry with you.
> 
> I get what you’re saying about the woman being in on the decision, I agree. I guess what I’m saying with that is “the act” itself isn’t required.
> 
> ...


Pretty good description on how I feel about it.  It kills me how atheists think we have to play by their rules.   I’m not telling them they have to believe in God or anything in the Bible.  That’s on them if they don’t.  But the way they think I have the same hang ups as them is weird.  If I believe God created everything right down to the tiniest of organisms I’m supposed to get hung up on virgin birth?  That’s their problem not mine.


----------



## bullethead (May 24, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Actually, I’m ok with just telling the Muslim I don’t believe that Allah exist and leaving it right there without explanation. There’s a good reason for that - I’m one of those that don’t buy “I said I believe in God so I’m saved”. There’s more to the experience than that. In reality none of the stories in the Bible really phase me as far as can it happen or did it happen that way - it’s just ok, only God can do that. Once you have that experience I’m talking about you’ve got undeniable proof that you can carry with you.
> 
> I get what you’re saying about the woman being in on the decision, I agree. I guess what I’m saying with that is “the act” itself isn’t required.
> 
> ...


I do understand what you are saying.
The God of the Bible gets more air time here because nobody but Christians represent a religion in here.
A problem for me is that the Impossible only exists in that Bible 2000+ years ago where literally every culture seemingly constantly had Miraculous interactions with gods.
If back then is anything like today where Gods stay far far far away, it seems that people took things they didn't understand and wrote about it to make sense of it by embellishing the stories to include their Gods being involved to appease the culture.

I totally understand that we all have unexplainable things happen in our lives. Has anyone had Biblical interactions where God has used people like he did for 1500+ years in the Bible? Has God deemed us a champion to right this countries wrongs, bring down some walls and lead like minded people in an exodus to resettle our country?
No, instead people read stories from thousands of years ago and try to do everything they can to link them with something today that has absolutely nothing to do with the cultures of the middle east.......yes, Impossible is one word.


----------



## Spotlite (May 24, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Pretty good description on how I feel about it.  It kills me how atheists think we have to play by their rules.   I’m not telling them they have to believe in God or anything in the Bible.  That’s on them if they don’t.  But the way they think I have the same hang ups as them is weird.  If I believe God created everything right down to the tiniest of organisms I’m supposed to get hung up on virgin birth?  That’s their problem not mine.


I do try to place myself there in hopes of finding an analogy or something because there’s a barrier, and because to the Muslim I’m an infidel, non believer and probably Atheist.

That same barrier the Muslim would have trying to convince me that Allah is the God. I can only imagine how that conversation would go.


----------



## Danuwoa (May 24, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I do try to place myself there in hopes of finding an analogy or something because there’s a barrier, and because to the Muslim I’m an infidel, non believer and probably Atheist.
> 
> That same barrier the Muslim would have trying to convince me that Allah is the God.


I’m about out of want to.  If everybody else is so sure they’re right and we are stupid, let her rip tater chip.  Go collect your prize.


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## bullethead (May 24, 2022)

The range of Atheists varies as much as the range of Christians.
Lumping every one together while claiming individuality for oneself is a poor stance.


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## Danuwoa (May 24, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The range of Atheists varies as much as the range of Christians.
> Lumping every one together while claiming individuality for oneself is a poor stance.


I don’t care.   My response to an atheist that doesn’t like my attitude toward them is that I’ve got the one they gave me.  The way atheists feel about Christians is exactly how I feel about them.


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## bullethead (May 24, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I don’t care.   My response to an atheist that doesn’t like my attitude toward them is that I’ve got the one they gave me.  The way atheists feel about Christians is exactly how I feel about them.


That definitely goes both ways.


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## oldfella1962 (May 24, 2022)

"But being Christian often lands you the title of worshipping something immoral using scriptures."

Yes indeed! Guarantee not everybody in the church congregation thinks everything in the bible is moral. But they can't "throw the baby out with the bathwater" and abandon their faith or go to another church. Everybody "cherry picks" parts of the bible to focus on to some degree.


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## oldfella1962 (May 24, 2022)

"I think the thread was to show that religion has no super power of individual morals and actions."

Only the belief in a religion (not the religion itself) can change the morals of any individual. Sometimes that belief is beneficial, sometimes detrimental. But of course, just like belief in any philosophy or system of rules, ideas, disciplines, meditations, etc. it depends mostly on the individual, but society has a strong effect in most cases too. 

But no, religious based morals are nothing special since the Christian god might have special miracle powers, but behaves just like the typical bronze aged male.


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## Spotlite (May 24, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> "But being Christian often lands you the title of worshipping something immoral using scriptures."
> 
> Yes indeed! Guarantee not everybody in the church congregation thinks everything in the bible is moral. But they can't "throw the baby out with the bathwater" and abandon their faith or go to another church. Everybody "cherry picks" parts of the bible to focus on to some degree.


There are a lot of things that we find harsh at the same time understanding there were laws at the time. No one today promotes those laws and traditions. One - obey the law of the land, sone of those things are illegal today.

Morals will change over time and with each people. 200 years ago slavery wasn’t bad. 75 years ago marrying 14 year olds was more common and acceptable.

A God that changes not doesn’t mean it’s ok to have slaves today. It means the same “law” or principle that applied then applies today - obey those that rule over you. Give your boss an 8 hour work day for 8 hours pay.


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## oldfella1962 (May 24, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I do try to place myself there in hopes of finding an analogy or something because there’s a barrier, and because to the Muslim I’m an infidel, non believer and probably Atheist.
> 
> That same barrier the Muslim would have trying to convince me that Allah is the God. I can only imagine how that conversation would go.



Now to really complicate things there are THOUSANDS of religions in the world! Granted not all of them are major religions of course. But when I was in Army I was an "equal opportunity" NCO for a while. Part of our training was dealing with members of different religions as far as equal treatment. At the time the Army officially recognized over *250 different religions*! Yes, you could be an Army member and have any of 250 different "religious preference" on your dog tags, and any special foods or areas of worship and everything else the Army has to provide for "mainstream" religions. 

Side note: they can't all be the "right" religion!


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## Spotlite (May 24, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Now to really complicate things there are THOUSANDS of religions in the world! Granted not all of them are major religions of course. But when I was in Army I was an "equal opportunity" NCO for a while. Part of our training was dealing with members of different religions as far as equal treatment. At the time the Army officially recognized over *250 different religions*! Yes, you could be an Army member and have any of 250 different "religious preference" on your dog tags, and any special foods or areas of worship and everything else the Army has to provide for "mainstream" religions.
> 
> Side note: they can't all be the "right" religion!


Yup. I was in Oklahoma City and there were at two least other religions in our training class that does not participate in the prayer over food. Rather than make a big deal and single folks out, the instructor agreed to just say “thank you” and leave it at that.

During the field training one was excepted due to certain clothing had to be removed to participate, his religion would not allow.


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## oldfella1962 (May 24, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Yup. I was in Oklahoma City and there were at two least other religions in our training class that does not participate in the prayer over food. Rather than make a big deal and single folks out, the instructor agreed to just say “thank you” and leave it at that.
> 
> During the field training one was excepted due to certain clothing had to be removed to participate, his religion would not allow.



That's where things get trick! It's a fine line between accommodating a religion and still remaining in the standards of safety and unit cohesion.
The craziest *"dude, you should have done your research*!" was an Air Force trainee who got kicked out because his religion didn't allow women to have authority over men, so he refused to salute female officers!  That would have been great to have on video! 

The Air Force (and Army too) have had people join from religions where they wouldn't roll their sleeves up or wear shorts because that was "vanity" by showing too much flesh!   And of course beards for the Jewish Orthodox Rabbi's was a real big deal!


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## 1gr8buildit (May 25, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Because religion is allegedly the divine/superior wisdom & guidance from the most powerful being (and creator of) the entire universe. If it is so life changing, then the number of fakes should be almost zero. Hearing and studying the "good news" almost 24/7 should rub off on people to the point that they would never think about systemic cheating, lying, scamming, etc.etc. I'm not saying church leaders should be perfect in every way, or that all church leaders are morally bankrupt. I'm saying if the word of god is so powerful and effective then it should change the hearts & minds of people enough at least to behave better than the non-believer.


that's a fair statement.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 26, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I'm saying if the word of god is so powerful and effective then it should change the hearts & minds of people enough at least to behave better than the non-believer.



Read "at least to behave better than me."  Your back should be black and blue from all the self-patulation on just the first page of the thread.  Not sure what it says about someone that takes aim at hypocritical child molesters to point to and say "I'm better than that."   Not aiming very high are you?


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## 1gr8buildit (May 26, 2022)

I would like to point out that this is not just about sin of a pastor. How about the child that was not protected by God? Or, the conflict of  a parent thinking you are taking your child to the safest place they could be only to have that happen. I don't have those answers as a believer and will not attempt to answer for God. I will just say that it's a tough conversation to have as a believer


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## oldfella1962 (May 26, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> I would like to point out that this is not just about sin of a pastor. How about the child that was not protected by God? Or, the conflict of  a parent thinking you are taking your child to the safest place they could be only to have that happen. I don't have those answers as a believer and will not attempt to answer for God. I will just say that it's a tough conversation to have as a believer



If anyone cares to google the SBC investigation (invest a few minutes) here's what is IMHO the most important thing:
it's not just about one pastor carrying out an extended affair,* IT'S ABOUT THE SBC* *TRYING TO COVER UP THE INVESTIGATION.*   So this isn't just one bad apple pastor out of a barrel full of good pastors. It's the SBC - the highest levels of the church - who deliberately refused to cooperate with impartial investigators. 

So if the woman is just a trouble maker why would the SBC try to cover up the investigation?   Is it a case of the SBC looking out for their reputation, and circling the wagons? 

I for one am not saying I'm better than anybody else. It's not about one person "sinning" in a moment of weakness. It's about the coverup involving many people.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 26, 2022)

1gr8buildit said:


> I would like to point out that this is not just about sin of a pastor. How about the child that was not protected by God? Or, the conflict of  a parent thinking you are taking your child to the safest place they could be only to have that happen. I don't have those answers as a believer and will not attempt to answer for God. I will just say that it's a tough conversation to have as a believer



A few very simple questions for you, if I may.   First one.  Can something be fixed if it's not broken?


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## 1gr8buildit (May 26, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> If anyone cares to google the SBC investigation (invest a few minutes) here's what is IMHO the most important thing:
> it's not just about one pastor carrying out an extended affair,* IT'S ABOUT THE SBC* *TRYING TO COVER UP THE INVESTIGATION.*  So this isn't just one bad apple pastor out of a barrel full of good pastors. It's the SBC - the highest levels of the church - who deliberately refused to cooperate with impartial investigators.
> 
> So if the woman is just a trouble maker why would the SBC try to cover up the investigation?   Is it a case of the SBC looking out for their reputation, and circling the wagons?
> ...


Well there I did it again, I assumed I knew ... and I did not not.


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## oldfella1962 (May 27, 2022)

Granted this SBC coverup is not even close to the level of constant, decades long worldwide coverups by the Catholic Church. And don't even get me started on some of the Mormon enclaves in northern Arizona/Southern Utah. But to even be painted with the same broad brush as these criminal dregs of society is bad enough.


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## WaltL1 (May 27, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> If anyone cares to google the SBC investigation (invest a few minutes) here's what is IMHO the most important thing:
> it's not just about one pastor carrying out an extended affair,* IT'S ABOUT THE SBC* *TRYING TO COVER UP THE INVESTIGATION.*  So this isn't just one bad apple pastor out of a barrel full of good pastors. It's the SBC - the highest levels of the church - who deliberately refused to cooperate with impartial investigators.
> 
> So if the woman is just a trouble maker why would the SBC try to cover up the investigation?   Is it a case of the SBC looking out for their reputation, and circling the wagons?
> ...


Organizations, of all types, go into damage control mode when it comes to things that can have a negative impact on their reputation. Thats just the way it is whether it be religious organizations, police forces etc etc.
The highest levels of the church also have the responsibility to try and protect the church. That can be ugly, hypocritical and just plain ol' wrong.
But it is what it is.
The mistake, in my opinion, is trying to seperate the church out from any other big "corporation" and expecting more or something different from them.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Organizations, of all types, go into damage control mode when it comes to things that can have a negative impact on their reputation. Thats just the way it is whether it be religious organizations, police forces etc etc.
> The highest levels of the church also have the responsibility to try and protect the church. That can be ugly, hypocritical and just plain ol' wrong.
> But it is what it is.
> The mistake, in my opinion, is trying to seperate the church out from any other big "corporation" and expecting more or something different from them.



You could not be more correct.  

As you are well aware, I had a great deal of respect for Ravi Zachariah as an apologist.  He was the head of Ravi Zachariah International Ministries (RZIM).  After his death a it came to the forefront that he had inappropriate relations with many women.  His daughter who was left to steer RZIM after his death handled the situation about as well as I have ever seen one handled.  She ordered a complete investigation and then, against a lot of people urging her not to, she released the complete report to the public.  After this she dissolved the foundation.   I felt bad for her.  She was left to clean up her fathers infidelities and answer for it.  I can't imagine anyone or any business/organization handling it better. 

This is still up on the web page:
*Open Letter from the International Board of Directors of RZIM on the Investigation of Ravi Zacharias*
Open Letter from the International Board of Directors of RZIM on the Investigation of Ravi Zacharias | RZIM

It reads in part:


> Following allegations made in late August of 2020 that Ravi had engaged in sexual misconduct and abuse in connection with two day spas, we commissioned Miller & Martin PLLC, a law firm with experience in corporate and sex crimes investigations, to conduct an independent investigation. We gave Miller & Martin a broad scope to pursue any avenues that they judged to be relevant to the accusations, and we emphasized that our only purpose for the investigation was to ascertain the full truth.
> 
> Having received the results of the investigation, we are publicly releasing the investigation report in the exact form that we received it


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## Artfuldodger (May 27, 2022)

Reading the OP again, it seems to be more about the cover-up more than the abuse. This was also mentioned a few more times by others. I'm not sure why some individuals took this as a personal attack on their religion. It was also mentioned that other non-religious organizations are quick to cover up things such as a fraternity, police, private business, etc. I guess it's just human nature. Sorta like what a family member might do too. Not of a sexual nature, but I've covered up a few things of others that I have regretted.
I think after the he said, she said, the discussion evolved or took a wrong turn in that direction.


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## oldfella1962 (May 27, 2022)

Ravi Zachariah's daughter is a great example of personal integrity, and of choosing the "hard right" over the "easy wrong".    I guess some people have it, and some people don't.


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## WaltL1 (May 27, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You could not be more correct.
> 
> As you are well aware, I had a great deal of respect for Ravi Zachariah as an apologist.  He was the head of Ravi Zachariah International Ministries (RZIM).  After his death a it came to the forefront that he had inappropriate relations with many women.  His daughter who was left to steer RZIM after his death handled the situation about as well as I have ever seen one handled.  She ordered a complete investigation and then, against a lot of people urging her not to, she released the complete report to the public.  After this she dissolved the foundation.   I felt bad for her.  She was left to clean up her fathers infidelities and answer for it.  I can't imagine anyone or any business/organization handling it better.
> 
> ...


That certainly took some backbone on her part.


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