# God conceals & reveals!



## Artfuldodger (Sep 6, 2016)

Mysteries, hidden things, secrets?

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,

1 Corinthians 15:51
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed.

Ephesians 1:9
he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,

Ephesians 3:3-4
3that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ

Just a few verses of God's mysteries/secrets and revelation.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 6, 2016)

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.

We can seek but sometimes we must wait;

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 6, 2016)

Paul talks a lot about God revealing to him the mystery of the gospel.
How does one view this secret? 
Has it always been and was just being revealed?

Ephesians 6:19
Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel,

Colossians 1:26-27
26the mystery that was hidden for ages and generations but is now revealed to His saints, 27to whom God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Romans 11:33
Oh, how great are God's riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 6, 2016)

Mystery for Hobbs;

Isaiah 56:1
This is what the LORD says: "Maintain justice and do what is right, for my salvation is close at hand and my righteousness will soon be revealed.

680 years later!


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 6, 2016)

Isaiah reveals, but it's kinda like being Monday night quarterbacks for us.

Isaiah reveals the Church or church age? Is that a dispensation?

Isaiah reveals Israel's blindness;

Romans 9:27
Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Isaiah 6:9-11
9He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.' 10"Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed." 11Then I said, "Lord, how long?" And He answered, "Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant, Houses are without people And the land is utterly desolate,

Until 70AD?

Isaiah 6:13
And though a tenth remains in the land, it will again be laid waste. But as the terebinth and oak leave stumps when they are cut down, so the holy seed will be the stump in the land."

Follows Romans 11.

“Well  spake  the  Holy  Ghost  by  Esaias  the  prophet  unto  our  fathers,  Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive ... their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes ... and should be converted ... Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it” (Acts 28:25-28).

Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame."

Romans 10:14 
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Romans 10:20
20And Isaiah boldly says: “I was found by those who did not seek Me; I revealed Myself to those who did not ask for Me.”


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 6, 2016)

The mystery revelation I'm seeking is;

Romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

This blindness and stumbling stone prophesied by Isaiah, has it always been there? Has salvation always been to the Gentile even before the blindness of National Israel? 

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

The mystery that Israel is the Church. Has it always been the Church and just revealed to Paul or did the Gentile get grafted into Israel to make the Church when it was revealed to Paul?

Secrets revealed? Do they extend back before the revealing? Like revealing to a child that he is adopted. The revealing didn't make him adopted, it just made him aware of the adoption.

Israel was made not to hear, a stumbling stone was  laid until the fullness of Gentiles came in. Isaiah prophesied of the blindness of Israel.  Were they blind from Creation or were they blinded for a certain time period. A period with a beginning and an end. A specific time of blindness for a specific purpose. Is that a dispensation?

2 Corinthians 3:14-16
14But their minds were closed. For to this day, the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant. It has not been lifted, because only in Christ can it be removed. 15And even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Romans 11:25-26
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

Reading those last passages in Romans and Corinthians sounds like a future event in a time period. Is this a dispensation?

Did Isaiah reveal that this blindness of Israel would end at a certain time?(dispensation)

So has everything always been the same or has future event been prophesied that would change the way things happened?


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## Israel (Sep 7, 2016)

As soon as Jesus was alone with the Twelve and those around Him, they asked Him about the parable. And He told them, “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to those on the outside, everything is expressed in parables, so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.’”

The disciple gains more in admitted lack of understanding than the whole of the world with its presumed wisdom.
There is a sign over the path to the Kingdom of God which reads "Blind Men Only", and the world laughs.
It reads the same on the other side of the sign also, for those who believe they can visit the back into the world.


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## welderguy (Sep 7, 2016)

Israel said:


> As soon as Jesus was alone with the Twelve and those around Him, they asked Him about the parable. And He told them, “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to those on the outside, everything is expressed in parables, so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.’”
> 
> The disciple gains more in admitted lack of understanding than the whole of the world with its presumed wisdom.
> There is a sign over the path to the Kingdom of God which reads "Blind Men Only", and the world laughs.
> It reads the same on the other side of the sign also, for those who believe they can visit the back into the world.



Amen!


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## gordon 2 (Sep 7, 2016)

Art many of your sins are perhaps covered by your tread here. Not perhaps for the effect you hope it might have ( you might never see it) , although my bet is that it is not in vain, --- but for  the hope in your heart I'm impressed! Your a good man my friend.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 7, 2016)

Israel said:


> As soon as Jesus was alone with the Twelve and those around Him, they asked Him about the parable. And He told them, “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to those on the outside, everything is expressed in parables, so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.’”
> 
> The disciple gains more in admitted lack of understanding than the whole of the world with its presumed wisdom.
> There is a sign over the path to the Kingdom of God which reads "Blind Men Only", and the world laughs.
> It reads the same on the other side of the sign also, for those who believe they can visit the back into the world.



My dear friend. There are perhaps two views of God in the man not knowing the Christ.  Those who do not know the Father is one group, and those knowing the Father yet if only in part is another.

Those not knowing the Father at all as our Savior knew him are lost even in the parables, those knowing the Father even partly as our Lord knows Him have a chance of not being misled by a parable. Perhaps.

Yet does not say God say to the hearers of his salvation, " From now on you will understand me plainly and directly, as I will not talk to you in figures of speech."

John 16:25
"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father."


Funny how that works... it is like a judgement and a harvest of grain. And yet those not knowing the Father will sprout children knowing him--like a tree bearing sour fruit sometimes drops on occasion  a sweet one--like a Noah or an Abraham perhaps. Funny how that works...


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2016)

Wow, going back over what I presented on this post was because I has just read Proverbs 25:2

"It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings."

From that point I got into reading about the Mystery of the Gospel revealed to Paul. So then I read all of what was revealed to Paul was prophesied by Isaiah.

So is it safe to say prophesy is different from revelation?
It was prophesied by Isaiah but revealed by Paul. 

So if we place time in the equation, when does actual events happen? Do the events make certain things happen at the exact time that it takes place?

Using Christ dying on the cross as an example. Did anyone gain eternal life before Christ died on the cross? did the actual event need to take place first?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 7, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Wow, going back over what I presented on this post was because I has just read Proverbs 25:2
> 
> It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.
> 
> ...



What is eternal life according John in his gospel account?



(Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.)

Someone who knew God before Jesus came along knew Jesus... is my 02 cents. So actual events don't need to happen...first. ( Art I'm a trinitarian and this for me is a hop, skip and a jump.) One could almost say that our covenant existed long before the covenant of the law. The covenant of the law was just a social hick-up as to time. The covenant of grace and salvation always was but not the extent we understand it... maybe.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2016)

Enter time.

I'm having trouble with "time." What is different about time than dispensations? 
Was there not the Old Covenant, New Covenant, & the overlapping of the two?
Was there not a time prophesied by Isaiah and revealed to Paul of Israel being blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles came in?

Wasn't there certain time periods within Christianity? The Church age or just the Church as it relates to the prophesy by Isaiah and the revelation given to Paul? Wasn't this what Paul was teaching? Wasn't this called "The Mystery of the Gospel?" Did Isaiah not prophesy that Israel would be blinded?

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Maybe not a dispensation but maybe just a "time."

Romans 9:4
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the Law, the temple worship, and the promises.

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

Can we at least agree that at some point in time there was a mystery/secret?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2016)

But before Christ actually died on the Cross, wasn't salvation just a promise? Didn't the actual event have to take place before those who died actually gained eternal life?

Maybe before Israel was blinded and the Gentile was without hope and God, it was just a promise. It took the actual blinding in order for the Gentile to be grafted in. 

The elect gentile were somehow frozen in time but it took the actual event of Israel's blindness to give the Gentile access to the commonwealth of Israel/Church.

I'm trying to see how the actual events such as the cross and Israel's blindness are added to the equation of time. If the Elect Jews who died before the cross needed the actual event to take place to gain eternal life and leave the grave, then perhaps the Elected Gentile before Israel's blindness, needed to wait for the actual event, Israel's blindness, to actually gain access to Commonwealth of Israel/Church. This could be part of the mystery revealed in Romans 11. Paul mentions in Romans 11 that we don't know God's ways.

We could look at other events in time too. Such as the future event of 70AD before that time or the future event of the second coming. 
When Christ comes in the future will the event change anything?
Can we completely ignore time? Is everything related to how we view Christianity, salvation,  and God outside of time?

Is it really "over" or are we waiting on something else "in time" to happen such as the return of Christ? If future events in time are important and will change things, why didn't past events change things? 

Why wasn't the timing of Christ coming to the earth and dying on a cross just as important as his return will be? Not only the importance of the event but the actual "timing" of the event. Did the timing actually change anything? Were thing different before or after? The Cross, 70AD, and a future return of Christ?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 7, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Enter time.
> 
> I'm having trouble with "time." What is different about time than dispensations?
> Was there not the Old Covenant, New Covenant, & the overlapping of the two?
> ...



Love is mysterious Art. In love time has a day and a night all of it's own.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 7, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Wow, going back over what I presented on this post was because I has just read Proverbs 25:2
> 
> "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings."
> 
> ...







gordon 2 said:


> What is eternal life according John in his gospel account?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can we call God's revelation of Himself through His Law "a social hick-up"?  Just a question.

----------------------

Gordon,
I forgot to say "Good Job".


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## hummerpoo (Sep 7, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> But before Christ actually died on the Cross, wasn't salvation just a promise? Didn't the actual event have to take place before those who died actually gained eternal life?
> 
> Maybe before Israel was blinded and the Gentile was without hope and God, it was just a promise. It took the actual blinding in order for the Gentile to be grafted in.
> 
> ...



Please read your post.  Do you think anyone could give you a carefully considered response, and thereby a response that would be of real benefit to you, in less than 10 pages.  I don't think so.  I'm not going to try, but if I did, you would be off in some other world by the time I completed it, which would be 2 or 3 days.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2016)

That's part of the dilemma. The Reformed view doesn't see time as important, only the event. 
The Church has always been Israel, so Romans 11 goes unexplained and of little importance. There never is a Church age as the Mystery of the Gospel has always been. It might have been revealed to Paul but it was only a revealing of something that has always been.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 7, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Can we call God's revelation of Himself through His Law "a social hick-up"?  Just a question.
> 
> ----------------------
> 
> ...



No it would be bad manners to do so, that is to call God's revelation of Himself through the Law  a social hick-up, but I meant the time of it in comparison to time since the fall is but a  time hick-up perhaps. The generations according or from the perspective of divine ministry are perhaps not the same generations we would understand from the perspective of one hundred yr or thirty yr generations as to birth and death of the physical body ( man).

Or simply put a generation to our Lord, ( though I speak not for Him) could be a thousand yrs ( Peter) or thousands of yrs ( Gordo)...


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## gordon 2 (Sep 7, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> please read your post.  Do you think anyone could give you a carefully considered response, and thereby a response that would be of real benefit to you, in less than 10 pages.  I don't think so.  I'm not going to try, but if i did, you would be off in some other world by the time i completed it, which would be 2 or 3 days.



lol


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2016)

Could a totally depraved Gentile understand the mystery of the Gospel even before it was revealed to Paul by an effectual calling of the Holy Spirit?

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;15by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace  16and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility.

Was it possible for a totally depraved Gentile to do this before Christ died on the cross to remove the dividing wall? 

If he was one of the elect, wouldn't he have to wait on the Cross to receive salvation?


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## hummerpoo (Sep 7, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> No it would be bad manners to do so, that is to call God's revelation of Himself through the Law  a social hick-up, but I meant the time of it in comparison to time since the fall is but a  time hick-up perhaps. The generations according or from the perspective of divine ministry are perhaps not the same generations we would understand from the perspective of one hundred yr or thirty yr generations as to birth and death of the physical body ( man).
> 
> Or simply put a generation to our Lord, ( though I speak not for Him) could be a thousand yrs ( Peter) or thousands of yrs ( Gordo)...



A "hick-up" being a relative measure of time.  Gotcha.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2016)

18For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens of the saints and members of God’s household,

"no longer strangers?" Did it take the Cross to remove the barrier? 

21In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 

Did it take the Cross to make the pieces fit?

2Surely you have heard about the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.  4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,5which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.  6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus.

This mystery/secret was not known to other generations. Was it still there and just not revealed?

This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs. Did or did it not take Paul's revealing for Gentiles to become fellow heirs? Did the actual "revealing" mean anything other than revealing something that was already in place?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 7, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> But before Christ actually died on the Cross, wasn't salvation just a promise? Didn't the actual event have to take place before those who died actually gained eternal life?
> 
> Maybe before Israel was blinded and the Gentile was without hope and God, it was just a promise. It took the actual blinding in order for the Gentile to be grafted in.
> 
> ...



Quote(But before Christ actually died on the Cross, wasn't salvation just a promise?) End Quote

Yea it was kinda, but the person (s) that loved God ( the real living one) and his neighbor as himself before the cross, where would you fit him in on the salvation index or the book of life? A simple guy like Abraham? He loved God enough to know what was just and  loved his neighbor ( with what he understood of God's love) as if his neighbor was not separate from his own person and life. ???


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2016)

I would fit that person who was one of the saints before the cross as  waiting on the promise to become an event it time.
I believe he would have to wait for the Cross to reconcile his promise of everlasting life. 
I believe the actual event had to happen in order for his sins to be reconciled. I believe it actually took the Blood of Christ to fulfill the promise. 
Then after the event of the Cross happened in time, the saint would gain eternal life. Before the event, it was just a promise.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2016)

It could be as suggested that when the Old Testament saints died, they were out of the realm of time. Being out of the realm of time allowed them to go on to Heaven because Christ had already came as a man, died on the cross, and returned the 2nd time.
Therefore in the dead saints eyes, we fellow Christians are already there, in Heaven too.
When working out of the realm of time "all is finished." The timing of the events mean nothing. 

They have already seen Christ as he is and became like him.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2016)

Acts 27-28
27For this people’s heart has grown callous; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.’ 28Be advised, therefore, that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!” 

Did it take Israel's blindness for God's salvation to be sent to the Gentiles or did it take Israel's blindness for the mystery to be revealed that God's salvation had already been available?


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## hummerpoo (Sep 7, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> It could be as suggested that when the Old Testament saints died, they were out of the realm of time. Being out of the realm of time allowed them to go on to Heaven because Christ had already came as a man, died on the cross, and returned the 2nd time.
> Therefore in the dead saints eyes, we fellow Christians are already there, in Heaven too.
> When working out of the realm of time "all is finished." The timing of the events mean nothing.
> 
> They have already seen Christ as he is and became like him.





Artfuldodger said:


> Acts 27-28
> 27For this people’s heart has grown callous; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.’ 28Be advised, therefore, that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”
> 
> Did it take Israel's blindness for God's salvation to be sent to the Gentiles or did it take Israel's blindness for the mystery to be revealed that God's salvation had already been available?



Art, are you starting to think that there actually could be another realm of which we know nothing accept what we are told?  Could that be connected to omniscience and omnipresence?  If you keep it up, you might even decide that an omnipotent entity in that realm would not actually have worldly characteristics like mind and emotions like ours; and, having perfectly created this realm, would not need to change anything about His governance of what He had created.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 7, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> It could be as suggested that when the Old Testament saints died, they were out of the realm of time. Being out of the realm of time allowed them to go on to Heaven because Christ had already came as a man, died on the cross, and returned the 2nd time.
> Therefore in the dead saints eyes, we fellow Christians are already there, in Heaven too.
> When working out of the realm of time "all is finished." The timing of the events mean nothing.
> 
> They have already seen Christ as he is and became like him.



That is a weird theory, also not biblical.


The mystery was given to the old covenant prophets but they did not understand what they were prophesying. The Spirit revealed the meaning of those prophesies to the Apostles because the time was near.

Think about this more...I have some more scripture to back this up to.

3 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel


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## hobbs27 (Sep 7, 2016)

True.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 7, 2016)

1peter1 10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us* they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.*


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## Israel (Sep 7, 2016)

For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Art, are you starting to think that there actually could be another realm of which we know nothing accept what we are told?  Could that be connected to omniscience and omnipresence?  If you keep it up, you might even decide that an omnipotent entity in that realm would not actually have worldly characteristics like mind and emotions like ours; and, having perfectly created this realm, would not need to change anything about His governance of what He had created.



I don't think that is where I am headed at all. I'm just trying to see how some people, mostly the reformed, see beyond time. 

I'm trying to see how to not look at time events as dispensations. Perhaps the timing isn't important. Jesus dying on the cross, saving before he died on the cross. A man elected to salvation before he has his effectual calling, etc. The timing of the event such as the effectual calling isn't as important as he has already been elected. The old saying, "repent before it's too late" doesn't mean anything because time isn't important.

If the Old testament dead saints gained eternal life before Christ died on the Cross then it was an out of time event as it hadn't happened yet. They only had a promise of salvation. But if they went to a holding place or directly to Heaven then they saw Jesus as soon as they died. Some, OK most peopl, believe Jesus was already in Heaven before he came to the earth. So if they went straight to Heaven, they met their Savior.
If the timing was important then the dead saints must have waited in the ground for the death of Christ.

On another thread is was presented that when we die, we will see Jesus as he is after the 2nd coming. Even if the 2nd coming hasn't happened yet. It was admitted to be speculation, perhaps a way to justify it all. One dies and experiences the 2nd coming/resurrection before it happens.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> That is a weird theory, also not biblical.
> 
> The mystery was given to the old covenant prophets but they did not understand what they were prophesying. The Spirit revealed the meaning of those prophesies to the Apostles because the time was near.
> 
> ...



I understand the mystery was revealed later. The mystery of the Gospel preached to the Gentile. The mystery that the Gentile could be grafted in to Israel/Church. The mystery of the blinding of Israel, God choosing a remnant until the fullness of the Gentile comes in.

My question is; was it, the secret/mystery available, in place or however you want to say it, before it was revealed?
Was it already in existence or did it start at the revealing? Did the actual revealing of the mystery change anything? Was the timing of the revealing important?  

Maybe the revealing was just when it was revealed. Like revealing to a child he was adopted. His adoption didn't start at the revealing.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 7, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I understand the mystery was revealed later. The mystery of the Gospel preached to the Gentile. The mystery that the Gentile could be grafted in to Israel/Church. The mystery of the blinding of Israel, God choosing a remnant until the fullness of the Gentile comes in.
> 
> My question is; was it, the secret/mystery available, in place or however you want to say it, before it was revealed?
> Was it already in existence or did it start at the revealing? Did the actual revealing of the mystery change anything? Was the timing of the revealing important?
> ...



I think so. The great mystery was that the Gentiles were grafted in. One might make an argument that the great mystery was FAITH over bloodline.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I think so. The great mystery was that the Gentiles were grafted in. One might make an argument that the great mystery was FAITH over bloodline.



You think so which way?


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## hobbs27 (Sep 7, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> You think so which way?



Both. Only the Jew's that had faith in Jesus the Messiah, and Gentiles that had faith in Jesus as the Messiah. 

 The dead that died in the faith, the remnant of Israel, and the Gentiles of faith joined together as one and inaugurated  the New Covenant.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> True.



The thoughts of Augustin on the Old and the New are very informative, probably even "fresh" for the modern attender of churches.  They are not conveyed in a slogan;  Or even by a relatively short read like this, but this link is a starting place.  You will have to "click" on from here (ch. 6) and read through chapter 13 (they are very short chapters).  It gets more exciting as it progresses, but you will cheat yourself if you acquiesce to the urge to skip forward; and if you don't go that far, you don't have the picture.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105.xviii.v.vi.html

This same website will give you more if you look around.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Both. Only the Jew's that had faith in Jesus the Messiah, and Gentiles that had faith in Jesus as the Messiah.
> 
> The dead that died in the faith, the remnant of Israel, and the Gentiles of faith joined together as one and inaugurated  the New Covenant.



So why was it a mystery/secret? If Gentiles could always receive salvation, why did Paul make out like it was a mystery revealed to him or his time? 
He almost makes it sound like Gentiles were without hope and God and that it took the blindness of Israel to allow the Gentiles to be grafted in. 

If it was not always like that, why did Paul make such a big deal about it being a mystery/secret revealed to him?

I'm not really seeing what the mystery of the Gospel is. If the mystery was that Israel was never the chosen and it's always been the Church, then why was it a mystery?

If it's always been the Church, why does Paul tell us in Romans 11 that Israel was blinded until the full number of Gentiles come in? Have you read Romans 11 lately? 

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

Do not be ignorant of this mystery. So why is Paul saying this if Gentiles have always had a chance at salvation?
I'm not saying they haven't, I'm just trying to figure out Paul and his revelation.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Why would Paul say such a thing?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2016)

If it's always been, why do some folks refer to it as the "Church Age" or "Age of Grace" as if the Church or grace was something new?
If it wasn't brought in but only revealed? What purpose did God have in hiding this fact?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I think so. The great mystery was that the Gentiles were grafted in. One might make an argument that the great mystery was FAITH over bloodline.



Again, when were they grafted in? From the beginning or at a later event?


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## hummerpoo (Sep 8, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do not be ignorant of this mystery. So why is Paul saying this if Gentiles have always had a chance at salvation?



Because Jews, Gentiles, Eskimos, Fijians, Hutus, Zulus, Northerners, Southerners, Men, Women, Giants, Dwarfs, people before incarnation, and people after the incarnation are egocentric.  They will find a dividing line to make them special if they have to invent it. They are proud of who they are, they are proud of what they have or have done, even what they know and what they believe, and they are proud that God saved THEM, and God won't have it in His People.

"You shall have no other gods before me."
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."

The mystery is only a mystery because people don't get it.  It's was true at the beginning, it will be true at the end.  Perhaps the greatest proof of God's love of His creature's is that He keeps telling them louder and clearer.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 8, 2016)

So Jesus ( who was without sin) revealed the mystery by revealing the Father from the perspective of someone without sin. And lo and behold God was a persona of love from Jesus's perspective.

But from the world's perspective, from the fallen world's perspective, from the perspective of man yet cuffed by his sin and the world's, God's persona was one to  demand fear and cowering except for those who saw His justice by detaching themselves from the world's tow either by reading between the lines, by contemplation on nature or by exceptional Divine will.

So for me, Jesus revealed the great mystery by doing and saying what the Father told him to say and do. And by doing this we could judge directly on the personality and assimilate the personality of God as God was, is, and will be without being misled by the worldly.

Add to  this the mystery of the cross, followed by the gift of the paraclet and the previously blind got/get to see, and to know and to live (be) and love (with affection) with the living (the real God) and our loving ( affectionate) God and understand from Him alone his justice.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 8, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> If it's always been, why do some folks refer to it as the "Church Age" or "Age of Grace" as if the Church or grace was something new?
> If it wasn't brought in but only revealed? What purpose did God have in hiding this fact?



Remember when God said through Paul, "Now we only see in part." Well sin has a tendency, like to much wine, to make things not as they are and the struggle to seem as if it was/is the normal lot, on the trip back home from the bar.

So it is not so much that it was hidden by God, it was hidden by sin.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Again, when were they grafted in? From the beginning or at a later event?



They were grafted in to the promise. As I believe the Jew's and Gentiles received it at the same time, but the Jew's had been holding on to the promise of reconciliation..awaiting the Messiah that most Gentiles had no knowledge of until Paul took it to them.

I'm not sure how futurist put it all together, there's a lot of different opinions.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> The thoughts of Augustin on the Old and the New are very informative, probably even "fresh" for the modern attender of churches.  They are not conveyed in a slogan;  Or even by a relatively short read like this, but this link is a starting place.  You will have to "click" on from here (ch. 6) and read through chapter 13 (they are very short chapters).  It gets more exciting as it progresses, but you will cheat yourself if you acquiesce to the urge to skip forward; and if you don't go that far, you don't have the picture.
> 
> http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105.xviii.v.vi.html
> 
> This same website will give you more if you look around.



Do you understand who this bond woman and free woman is?

 "For there was made the law four hundred and thirty years after, by which law he asserts that this testament of the promise of Abraham could not be weakened; and he will have this which was made by Abraham to pertain rather to us, whom he will have to be children of the freewoman, not of the bondwoman, heirs by the promise, not by the law, when he says, “For if the inheritance be by the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise"


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2016)

Most of this..perhaps all, I have read before. Augustine was quiet preterist in a lot of his statements. Thanks for the link Hummer.

Thence there are still their children in the great multitude of the Jews, although now the new testament as it was prophesied is made plain and confirmed by the blood of Christ; and the gospel is made known from the river where He was baptized and began His teachings, even to the ends of the earth. And these Jews, according to the prophecies which they read, are dispersed everywhere over all the earth, that even from their writings may not be wanting a testimony to Christian truth.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 8, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Do you understand who this bond woman and free woman is?
> 
> "For there was made the law four hundred and thirty years after, by which law he asserts that this testament of the promise of Abraham could not be weakened; and he will have this which was made by Abraham to pertain rather to us, whom he will have to be children of the freewoman, not of the bondwoman, heirs by the promise, not by the law, when he says, “For if the inheritance be by the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise"



The immediate point is "What does Augustine think?".  That is, I believe, in the 2nd of 8 chapter.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2016)

For those that say the law was nailed to the cross.....not so fast.

 2 Corinthians 3:14 ►
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same veil not taken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> The immediate point is "What does Augustine think?".  That is, I believe, in the 2nd of 8 chapter.



The bondwoman being the old covenant represented as Jerusalem the Bride produced children of the flesh. Children of temporal life.

The freewoman being the new covenant represented as the New Jerusalem the bride of Christ produces children of the Spirit. Children of eternal life.

Those born under the bondwoman through faith still would recieve the inheritance of the promise by being born again or regenerated into the family of the freewoman .


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2016)

That's an exciting read. 

 Jesus, just like Moses, led his people out of bondage ( law) and into a heavenly city ( grace). They wondered between those two places( covenants) for forty years ( Cross) to (70ad). His people ( remnant) were brought out of the city before God's wrath reigned down on her. Now the new city has come down, we are children of the bride ( New Jerusalem) and being born of the Spirit through faith have eternal life.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 8, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> The bondwoman being the old covenant represented as Jerusalem the Bride produced children of the flesh. Children of temporal life.
> 
> The freewoman being the new covenant represented as the New Jerusalem the bride of Christ produces children of the Spirit. Children of eternal life.
> 
> Those born under the bondwoman through faith still would recieve the inheritance of the promise by being born again or regenerated into the family of the freewoman .



This is starting to look familiar; like refusing to address John 3:3,5.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> This is starting to look familiar; like refusing to address John 3:3,5.



Other than the not so hidden implication of who was in need of regeneration...do you find error?


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2016)

Another church father...

"When did prophet and vision cease from Israel? Was it not when Christ came, the Holy One of holies? It is, in fact, a sign and notable proof of the coming of the Word that Jerusalem no longer stands, neither is prophet raised up nor vision revealed among them. And it is natural that it should be so, for when He that was signified had come, what need was there any longer of any to signify Him? And when the Truth had come, what further need was there of the shadow? On His account only they prophesied continually, until such time as Essential Righteousness has come, Who was made the Ransom for the sins of all. For the same reason Jerusalem stood until the same time, in order that there men might premeditate the types before the Truth was known. So, of course, once the Holy One of holies had come, both vision and prophecy were sealed." -- Saint Athanasius (296 - 373)


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## hummerpoo (Sep 8, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Other than the not so hidden implication of who was in need of regeneration...do you find error?



That's an implication that I do not see.  Actually, I don't even know to what you are referring.

I would ask "error in what?", but I'm getting a little tired, I'm going to take a rest.

The unidentified "quote" from Augustine, with it's implications, is there on post #30, and Augustine's writing on the subject is linked on post #38.  Anyone who is interested should need nothing else.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2016)

Not to appear sacrilegious, but why did God's plan choose what appeared to be National Israel, when his real plan was to choose the Church, Gentile, Elect, etc. to begin with?

Why or what was his logic or reasoning for presenting us with such a mystery/secret?

It does appear God chose a remnant out of Israel and blinded the rest as a way of letting the Gentile into the commonwealth of Israel or the Church. This is a mystery Paul does not want us to be ignorant of.

I can't second guess God but I'm having trouble understanding it all. Perhaps I am too blind to see.  If God set up Israel to stumble then he will remove the stumbling stone.

Romans 11:28-33
Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.  30 Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience,31 so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 33 O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!…

I'm beginning to think it's beyond my learning capability. If a dead person doesn't know they are dead and it bothers only the living, does it work the same for an ignorant person?

Does God conceal and reveal on an individual basis? Maybe that's my problem.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2016)

Is it safe to say the mystery was only revealed by Paul, not the actual thing he revealed? That being salvation to the Gentile. It didn't start at the time of Paul's revelation. He just let the elect Gentiles know they were always heirs. They were always grafted in to Israel. Nothing started or ended with any biblical event? It appears time is only a reference point. I mean God had to send his Son to die at some point in time. The point itself meant nothing, right?
Matters not when if it didn't start or finish anything. The Cross or any other return trip. Meaning the timing, not the event.

Paul was only revealing what was already happening from the beginning of time. That being that National Israel never was the chosen, it has always been the Church or Elect. The sons of God have always been. Paul just revealed to the sons of God that they were the elect.
Wait, I thought that was the Holy Spirit's job. 
OK, then what exactly was Paul's mission in revealing what the Holy Spirit is suppose to do? Maybe let the Gentile know to be listening when the Holy Spirit knocks? Did God really need a man for that mission? Paul's revelation must have meant something as important as all of his epistles are to Christianity. After all it was concealed and then revealed for some purpose.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2016)

To clarify my question let me present it this way;

If the Gentile had always been grafted in since Creation, why the need for God to choose a Remnant from National Israel and blind the rest of National Israel for the Gentile to be grafted in?
Why was the Gentile at one point without God, hope, and not in the Commonwealth if in fact they were always grafted in?

Was it the same as the Cross timing? It had to be inserted into time somewhere so God just stuck it in there.

The actual timing of the events didn't change anything as it has always been. Israel didn't experience a hardening to allow the Gentile in because they were already in. (beyond or out of time)

The Gentile was grafted in at Creation. It just had to be inserted into "time."


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Not to appear sacrilegious, but why did God's plan choose what appeared to be National Israel, when his real plan was to choose the Church, Gentile, Elect, etc. to begin with?
> 
> Why or what was his logic or reasoning for presenting us with such a mystery/secret?
> 
> ...



Some people say it was to show man he could not live righteous without God.
 The law was not imperfect but it amplified and exposed the imperfection of Man. Old covenant men were in bondage to the law, but they were awaiting a promise of reconciliation. It has come.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2016)

I understand the purpose of the Law. It's the mystery of the Gospel I have questions about. Was it in place before it was revealed? Was it in place before Israel was blinded?


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I understand the purpose of the Law. It's the mystery of the Gospel I have questions about. Was it in place before it was revealed? Was it in place before Israel was blinded?



The Gospel was considered to be the ( Good News) isn't that what it is? 

 Good News is something that has been waited on, or expected, not like old news.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> The Gospel was considered to be the ( Good News) isn't that what it is?
> 
> Good News is something that has been waited on, or expected, not like old news.



Do you think that when the Good News came it had been in place since Creation?

Let's say that you get good news today that the war is over, yet the war was over two months ago. Just because you received the good news doesn't make the war over when you heard it. Maybe the war was over a hundred years ago or two thousand years ago by the time you received the good news.

Did Paul relay the message that salvation had always been available to the Gentile? Perhaps only the news is new but not the message.(gospel)
Maybe it was Good News but not new News. They were receiving the message about something that was always available. (salvation)


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you think that when the Good News came it had been in place since Creation?
> 
> Let's say that you get good news today that the war is over, yet the war was over two months ago. Just because you received the good news doesn't make the war over when you heard it. Maybe the war was over a hundred years ago or two thousand years ago by the time you received the good news.
> 
> ...



Art. I believe the Good News repaired a relationship between man and God that had not been known since that dreadful day in the garden that Adam took of the fruit and died.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Art. I believe the Good News repaired a relationship between man and God that had not been known since that dreadful day in the garden that Adam took of the fruit and died.



What is the definition of the Good News? Was it in place before it was delivered?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2016)

The Gospel is the story of Jesus but more importantly that Jesus died for our sins. He is our salvation.

The mystery of the Gospel revealed to Paul at the time he was teaching this mystery was that salvation was available to the Jew and the Gentile. 

My question is a simple one, was salvation available to the Gentile before this mystery/secret was revealed to Paul who spread this mystery to the Gentile?


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> What is the definition of the Good News? Was it in place before it was delivered?



Reconciliation. Eternal life.

In place before it was delivered... No.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> The Gospel is the story of Jesus but more importantly that Jesus died for our sins. He is our salvation.
> 
> The mystery of the Gospel revealed to Paul at the time he was teaching this mystery was that salvation was available to the Jew and the Gentile.
> 
> My question is a simple one, was salvation available to the Gentile before this mystery/secret was revealed to Paul who spread this mystery to the Gentile?



Salvation was not available to Jew nor Gentile before.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Salvation was not available to Jew nor Gentile before.



I thought salvation was available but maybe not eternal life. Either the dead saints had to wait on the Cross to gain eternal life or it was gained on the fact that God knew he would send his Son. The working beyond time thing.
If they had to wait in the ground they had salvation, they just had to wait until they gained eternal life.

So you see the timing of the event(Cross) as the moment all of the saints, alive at that time, or dead, received salvation/eternal life?


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought salvation was available but maybe not eternal life. Either the dead saints had to wait on the Cross to gain eternal life or it was gained on the fact that God knew he would send his Son. The working beyond time thing.
> If they had to wait in the ground they had salvation, they just had to wait until they gained eternal life.
> 
> So you see the timing of the event(Cross) as the moment all of the saints, alive at that time, or dead, received salvation/eternal life?



They had the promise...but had to wait for the reality.
 No not all received it at the cross


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Salvation was not available to Jew nor Gentile before.



Acts 28:28
"Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

What was the Mystery of the Gospel that went out when it was revealed to Paul?


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Acts 28:28
> "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"
> 
> What was the Mystery of the Gospel that went out when it was revealed to Paul?



That Gentiles were grafted in.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2016)

Rev. 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

If Jesus has not come back..no one has received salvation. If He came back as I believe then those that had died in Christ and those that had been baptized in Christ received His reward upon His coming.....and He is still giving His reward.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2016)

Ephesians 3:2
Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you,3that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,  5which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus.

It sounds like Paul is saying that "through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs."

Also that this was a mystery/secret. I don't think or I don't want to believe it was the message of the gospel that granted them salvation but the event the message delivered.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Rev. 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
> 
> If Jesus has not come back..no one has received salvation. If He came back as I believe then those that had died in Christ and those that had been baptized in Christ received His reward upon His coming.....and He is still giving His reward.



Let's assume Christ returned when you said and that's when people dead and alive gained salvation. Paul was preaching about salvation before 70AD. Perhaps we can look at it as a promise of salvation if you will.

Acts 28:28
"Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

Wasn't this before 70AD? Was it just a promise? Did the 
Gentiles gain salvation before it was sent to the Gentiles as per Acts 28:28?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> That Gentiles were grafted in.



"The Gentiles were grafted in."

You bring that up a lot. Does that have anything to do with salvation or just when the Gentiles became Jews by adoption?


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Let's assume Christ returned when you said and that's when people dead and alive gained salvation. Paul was preaching about salvation before 70AD. Perhaps we can look at it as a promise of salvation if you will.
> 
> Acts 28:28
> "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"
> ...



Art... Honestly I think, the Father was putting together a Bride for Christ from Christ's Baptism to His return in 70ad... The 144,000 perhaps..a royal priesthood?  They had to show they were pure, they had to behave in a manner that doesn't compute with our definition of grace today...they had to make their robes white.

Maybe I'll have all that figured out someday, but I'm still working on that and the ( already but not yet).


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2016)

Acts 13:45-47
But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy, and they blasphemously contradicted what Paul was saying. 46Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “It was necessary to speak the word of God to you first. But since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47For this is what the Lord has commanded us: ‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

Acts 15:6-8
So the apostles and elders met to look into this matter. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days, God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2016)

When were the Gentiles grafted in?

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

In Romans 11, God chooses a Remnant using grace and blinds the rest of Israel using his hardening ability. He is the Potter, his vessels. This hardening is temporary. Then the Gentile is grafted in. 
Their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles. 
"For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?"
 Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in and all Israel will be saved.

What did the Gentiles gain by this grafting in? What promises did they become co-heirs of?
If it's always been, why did they have to wait?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2016)

Romans 11:29-31
29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 

There still seems to be some connection between Gentile salvation the the Jewish rejection and disobedience.

Paul said there is neither Jew nor Gentile and then in Romans 9-11 he shows us that there is. He shows us how Israel had to stumble to let the Gentile in. He is presenting a difference between the Jew and Gentile. 

Romans 9:3-4
For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race,
4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.

Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame."

Romans 10:1
Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.

"Paul is still separating his people from God's people."

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

"Paul says this again." Then he goes on to separate. To show how the Jew was hardened to allow salvation to the Gentile.

Romans 11:1
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

"Paul is back to the Israelite."

Romans 11:5
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

God chooses a remnant of "Jews." 

Romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

This is where it gets interesting. God hardens the rest of Israel. Why? To allow salvation to the Gentiles.
(but there is neither Jew nor Gentile. Christ died for all. Why did God need to harden the Jews to allow salvation to the Gentiles?)

OK the interesting part as to why;

 "SALVATION HAS COME TO THE GENTILES TO MAKE ISRAEL ENVIOUS."

God granted salvation to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
He chose a Remnant and hardened the rest to allow salvation to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

Romans 11:12
But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

"It took their transgression to bring riches to the Gentiles which was a by product of bringing the full inclusion of Israel by jealousy."

Romans 11:13-15
I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

"Here Paul says he is provoking his own people to jealousy like it's his plan instead of Gods."

Romans 11:25-26
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

"Well there you have it. God's plan worked, Paul can quit worrying.
Paul should have known. Perhaps this unfolding of this mystery wasn't all revealed to Paul at once, therefore he wished and prayed for his countrymen. Maybe verse 26 was only revealed to Paul later after he had hoped and prayed for his countrymen.

God conceals and reveals. Eventually it was revealed to Paul that the "envious" plan had worked. At least it brought salvation to the Gentiles. 

Oh and if you should question God's judgement or ways for making it go down like this we have;

Romans 11:31-33
so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways.


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