# Pastor takes leave of absence over his online porn addiction



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2007)

*Pastor takes leave of absence over his online porn addiction*

*His church in New Tampa has 1,400 members.*
​By BILL COATS, Times Staff Writer
Published December 15, 2007
<HR noShade SIZE=1><!--BSHSTARTBODY--><!--top-->NEW TAMPA - The pastor of a leading New Tampa church is stepping down because of his addiction to online pornography. 

The Rev. Brian James, pastor of St. James United Methodist Church, is taking an indefinite, voluntary leave of absence, said Erik Alsgaard, director of communications for the Florida Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church, the Methodists' Lakeland-based governing body for most of Florida. 

Alsgaard said James disclosed the problem to a church committee early this week. The committee consulted the hierarchy of the Methodist conference, leading to James' leave of absence, he said. 

Alsgaard said the church had no evidence that James' had broken the law. 
"There was no dealing with pornography of children or youth, as far as we know," Alsgaard said. 

A computer firm under contract to the church is investigating the computers at St. James, he said. 

Legalities aside, viewing pornography is unacceptable, Alsgaard said. 
"We expect our clergy to uphold the highest moral and ethical standards," he said. "Online adult pornography does not follow those moral and ethical standards." 

James, 45, is married, with four children. He has been pastor of the 1,400-member church for seven years. Three years ago, he successfully challenged his members to raise $1-million in 10 days to buy adjacent property to expand the church. 

"I look at the community we live in," James said then, speaking of affluent, master-planned New Tampa. 

"This is not a community that is lacking. It is a velvet ghetto. Most of us live comfortable lives, but on the inside, we're struggling." 

This year, St. James made a local splash by converting an empty Krispy Kreme shop on Bruce B. Downs Boulevard into a Christian nightclub for teens. 

"I feel enormous sadness for him, and especially his family," said Gary Brosch, a leader in St. James' youth programs. "We do talk about how we're all imperfect, and this certainly shows that." 

Brosch said he had heard no church member express outrage. 

"There is that stuff in the Bible about who should throw the first stone, and there aren't many of us in a position to throw the first stone," he said. "We're all imperfect, and we all struggle with different kinds of things." 

Alsgaard said James would issue a statement in church on Sunday. 
Through Christmas, St. James' services will be conducted - and sermons preached - by the Rev. Bert Blomquist of Plant City, the Methodists' district superintendent for the Tampa-Lakeland area. Beginning Dec. 30, the Rev. Riley Short, a retired pastor from Lakeland, is to serve as interim pastor, Alsgaard said. 

Methodist pastors in the Florida conference are appointed by the conference's bishop, Timothy Whitaker. 

Alsgaard said James would be allowed to stay in his church-owned home for up to three months. 

"The church is going to offer some support," he said. 

"We're still the same church, and we're still the same people," Brosch said. "We'll keep doing what we're doing."


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## SBG (Dec 19, 2007)

I bet we'd all be surprised how rampant this problem is.


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## dawg2 (Dec 19, 2007)

SBG said:


> I bet we'd all be surprised how rampant this problem is.



I bet I Wouldn't


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## pnome (Dec 19, 2007)

> Alsgaard said James disclosed the problem to a church committee early this week.



I wonder if that's true.  I'll bet they caught him using church computers for porn.   Then he comes out saying he has an addiction.


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## jmharris23 (Dec 19, 2007)

Either way its sad


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## FX Jenkins (Dec 19, 2007)

sooner or later, it is every mans battle...


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## pnome (Dec 19, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> Either way its sad



Doesn't have to be.  Now this guy no longer has to live a lie.  I'll bet he feels relief.


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## Randy (Dec 19, 2007)

And people wonder why I can't find a church/pastor.


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## PWalls (Dec 19, 2007)

Randy said:


> And people wonder why I can't find a church/pastor.



If you are holding out for a "perfect" pastor, then you won't find one until you get to Heaven.

Each one of us, pastors or not, are sinners. Some people struggle with sin more than others. Some people struggle with specific sin.

I pray that this man has confessed and repented. God will forgive him. His family now has to deal with the consequences of that sin.


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## SBG (Dec 19, 2007)

Randy said:


> And people wonder why I can't find a church/pastor.



Because you haven't found anyone as perfect as youself?


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## Randy (Dec 19, 2007)

I am not holding out for perfection but neither will I attend a church led by a pastor who I know is a sinner.  I will not have a preacher who smokes leading my church.  I will not attend a church led by a preacher that has his own family problems.  I will not attend a church led by a pastor that has his own eating problems.  I hold pastors above the average man just as I hold cops above the average citizen.  More responsibility comes with leadership.


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## Randy (Dec 19, 2007)

SBG said:


> Because you haven't found anyone as perfect as youself?




I am a long way from perfect.  But I am not a pastor either.


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## dawg2 (Dec 19, 2007)

op2:


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## Milkman (Dec 19, 2007)

I pray that Pastor Brian James has already asked for forgiveness and will recover.



Randy said:


> I am not holding out for perfection but neither will I attend a church led by a pastor who I know is a sinner.  I will not have a preacher who smokes leading my church.  I will not attend a church led by a preacher that has his own family problems.  I will not attend a church led by a pastor that has his own eating problems.  I hold pastors above the average man just as I hold cops above the average citizen.  More responsibility comes with leadership.



If what you wrote is true....... then sadly you will never attend church again.  

All are sinners


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2007)

Randy said:


> I am not holding out for perfection but neither will I attend a church led by a pastor who I know is a sinner. I will not have a preacher who smokes leading my church. I will not attend a church led by a preacher that has his own family problems. I will not attend a church led by a pastor that has his own eating problems. I hold pastors above the average man just as I hold cops above the average citizen. More responsibility comes with leadership.


 

How many times have you seen a cop speeding down the highway and not have his lights on, which basically means he is not being called to go somewhere in a hurry but chooses to speed anyway? Do you follow him and confront him about his speeding, or call and report him to his superior?

Just remember, he is a man, just as you are a man, just as able to sin in any fashion...

Who holds you to a higher standard, and who have you disappointed, I know if someone held me in there mind to a higher standard than themselves then I would probably disappoint them...

For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God

DB BB


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## dawg2 (Dec 19, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I pray that Pastor Brian James has already asked for forgiveness and will recover.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am glad somebody said that out loud


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## PWalls (Dec 19, 2007)

Randy said:


> I am not holding out for perfection but neither will I attend a church led by a pastor who I know is a sinner.  I will not have a preacher who smokes leading my church.  I will not attend a church led by a preacher that has his own family problems.  I will not attend a church led by a pastor that has his own eating problems.  I hold pastors above the average man just as I hold cops above the average citizen.  More responsibility comes with leadership.



Let's not jump Randy here.

I see his point. Let's all go read 2 Timothy. Pastors and Deacons are called to a higher office than other Christians. While all Christians are to strive to be Christlike, those two offices have specific requirements and conditions that they have to live within. We as Christians should hold Pastors and Deacons to a slightly higher standard because the Bible holds them to a specific standard.

Now, yes, Pastors and Deacons are definately men and sinners. As such, they shouldn't be held to a "perfection" standard. But there is a biblical one.


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## Randy (Dec 19, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I pray that Pastor Brian James has already asked for forgiveness and will recover.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am sure they are.  I know that.  But once exposed especially this type of sin stated in this thread, I can not be led by him.

I once heard Joyce Meyer say she did not want to be "friends" with people in her congregation because she did not want them to see he flaws or they would lose respect for her.  That is a very smart thing in my opinion.

Here is an example:
I went on a cruise with our pastor and some church members this past year.  After the cruise I was glad he was leaving our church for more money somewhere else.  There was no way I could have him as a leader after that trip.  First, he is about 400 lbs as is his wife.  The cruise confirmed he has an eating problem!  We followed him down to Miami, he did not run the speed limit the whole way.  He was in the casino on the ship and even won 5 bucks!!!  I later learned that he borrowed the money for the trip from a church member as he did not have enough to go. 

Needless to say I am glad he left our church for more money somewhere else.


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## dawg2 (Dec 19, 2007)

PWalls said:


> Let's not jump Randy here.
> 
> I see his point. Let's all go read 2 Timothy. Pastors and Deacons are called to a higher office than other Christians. While all Christians are to strive to be Christlike, those two offices have specific requirements and conditions that they have to live within. We as Christians should hold Pastors and Deacons to a slightly higher standard because the Bible holds them to a specific standard.
> 
> Now, yes, Pastors and Deacons are definately men and sinners. As such, they shouldn't be held to a "perfection" standard. But there is a biblical one.




I am not jumping him, for the record.  I absolutely believe (as the Bible says it but some people skip over that part) that a Pastor/Preacher/Priest IS DEFINITELY held to a higher moral compass / status than the congregation/church members and should step down and sit out in the pews with everybody else for transgressions.  He is not going to be perfect, but he definitely should keep the 10 Commandments at a MINIMUM.


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## SBG (Dec 19, 2007)

Randy said:


> I
> Needless to say I am glad he left our church for more money somewhere else.




Can't blame you one bit there!


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## Randy (Dec 19, 2007)

dawg2 said:


> He is not going to be perfect, but he definitely should keep the 10 Commandments at a MINIMUM.



Yes and he has to be a better man than me.  If I can't find somebody better than me to lead me then I will not follow.  No I am not perfect.  Far from it.  But I will not follow a person that has more problems than me either.


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## dawg2 (Dec 19, 2007)

Randy said:


> Yes and he has to be a better man than me.  If I can't find somebody better than me to lead me then I will not follow.  No I am not perfect.  Far from it.  But I will not follow a person that has more problems than me either.



Me neither.  That is a fair statement.


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## Branchminnow (Dec 19, 2007)

Randy said:


> I am sure they are.  I know that.  But once exposed especially this type of sin stated in this thread, I can not be led by him.
> 
> I once heard Joyce Meyer say she did not want to be "friends" with people in her congregation because she did not want them to see he flaws or they would lose respect for her.  That is a very smart thing in my opinion.
> 
> ...




An old preacher told me one time to keep people at arms length if you dont then you will straddle the fence when it comes time to really preach hard.....i have found that is true.

Randy I hate to hear about your bad experience.


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## Phillip Thurmond (Dec 19, 2007)

Just wondering why you would post this here?  What good does it do other than to make Christians look bad!  I'm not defending this person by why drag stuff like this through the mud?  I can Promise you that Satin love this kind of free publicity!


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## THREEJAYS (Dec 19, 2007)

FX Jenkins said:


> sooner or later, it is every mans battle...



So true,By the way have you ever read "Every mans battle" a chtistain brother gave a copy to me a while back ,it's well worth reading


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## dawg2 (Dec 19, 2007)

Phillip Thurmond said:


> Just wondering why you would post this here?  What good does it do other than to make Christians look bad!  I'm not defending this person by why drag stuff like this through the mud?  I can Promise you that Satin love this kind of free publicity!



No it doesn't.  It makes us fully realize our fallibility and need for repenting, regardless of who you are.  Hide it and it grows.  Throw it in the open and you can destroy it.


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## Bownly (Dec 19, 2007)

He should just bow down to God and ask for forgiveness and all will be okay.


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## dawg2 (Dec 19, 2007)

Bownly said:


> He should just bow down to God and ask for forgiveness and all will be okay.


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## Bownly (Dec 19, 2007)

dawg2 said:


>




Nice avatar.  It really sets the religious tone.....!


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## dawg2 (Dec 19, 2007)

Bownly said:


> Nice avatar.  It really sets the religious tone.....!



Ever read the Old Testament.  Lots of great books in there


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## Bownly (Dec 19, 2007)

dawg2 said:


> Ever read the Old Testament.  Lots of great books in there



I'm not in to fairy tales.  Here ya go:


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## FishFanatic (Dec 19, 2007)

Bownly said:


> I'm not in to fairy tales.  Here ya go:



You should get educated.  You may just find that there is a lot of evidence backing up those fairy tales.


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## Branchminnow (Dec 20, 2007)

dawg2 said:


> No it doesn't.  It makes us fully realize our fallibility and need for repenting, regardless of who you are.  Hide it and it grows.  Throw it in the open and you can destroy it.


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## Branchminnow (Dec 20, 2007)

dawg2 said:


> Ever read the Old Testament.  Lots of great books in there



 Im sorry to keep quoting you but that there was funny AND TRUE !


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## FX Jenkins (Dec 20, 2007)

THREEJAYS said:


> So true,By the way have you ever read "Every mans battle" a chtistain brother gave a copy to me a while back ,it's well worth reading



Yes, the book is good...but the workshop is even better  
http://www.everymansbattle.com/home.asp


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## RJY66 (Dec 20, 2007)

dawg2 said:


> Ever read the Old Testament.  Lots of great books in there



Ever read the New Testament?  Lots of great books in there!


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## RJY66 (Dec 20, 2007)

Bownly said:


> He should just bow down to God and ask for forgiveness and all will be okay.



Absolutely not!  He should be taken out and stoned to death!  I'm talking rocks here not narcotics!  

Just like Jesus did with the woman caught in adultery.  All of us who maybe perused a playboy at some point in our lives should chunk the first brick!


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## eagles88 (Dec 20, 2007)

I, for one have lived through this nightmare.  It was a horrible chapter in my life.  I almost lost my wife.  She felt like it wass a betrayal of our wedding vows.  Honestly, if Ii had not been caught I probably would not have dropped it.  It is part of my ministry now.  I can minister to those that have are in that sin or have been in that sin.  All men strugle with their eyes but through the strength of Jesus Christ we can have heavenly blinders.


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## FishFanatic (Dec 20, 2007)

eagles88 said:


> I, for one have lived through this nightmare.  It was a horrible chapter in my life.  I almost lost my wife.  She felt like it wass a betrayal of our wedding vows.  Honestly, if Ii had not been caught I probably would not have dropped it.  It is part of my ministry now.  I can minister to those that have are in that sin or have been in that sin.  All men strugle with their eyes but through the strength of Jesus Christ we can have heavenly blinders.



Awesome.  Amen.


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## dawg2 (Dec 20, 2007)

RJY66 said:


> Ever read the New Testament?  Lots of great books in there!



Sure have and do.


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## jmharris23 (Dec 20, 2007)

eagles88 said:


> I, for one have lived through this nightmare.  It was a horrible chapter in my life.  I almost lost my wife.  She felt like it wass a betrayal of our wedding vows.  Honestly, if Ii had not been caught I probably would not have dropped it.  It is part of my ministry now.  I can minister to those that have are in that sin or have been in that sin.  All men strugle with their eyes but through the strength of Jesus Christ we can have heavenly blinders.



Thanks for sharing that!


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## RJY66 (Dec 20, 2007)

eagles88 said:


> I, for one have lived through this nightmare.  It was a horrible chapter in my life.  I almost lost my wife.  She felt like it wass a betrayal of our wedding vows.  Honestly, if Ii had not been caught I probably would not have dropped it.  It is part of my ministry now.  I can minister to those that have are in that sin or have been in that sin.  All men strugle with their eyes but through the strength of Jesus Christ we can have heavenly blinders.



Looks to me like you might not be by yourself......

http://www.blazinggrace.org/pornstatistics.htm


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## Branchminnow (Dec 20, 2007)

RJY66 said:


> Looks to me like you might not be by yourself......
> 
> http://www.blazinggrace.org/pornstatistics.htm



That is disheartening.


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## jody7818 (Dec 20, 2007)

eagles88 said:


> I, for one have lived through this nightmare.  It was a horrible chapter in my life.  I almost lost my wife.  She felt like it wass a betrayal of our wedding vows.  Honestly, if Ii had not been caught I probably would not have dropped it.  It is part of my ministry now.  I can minister to those that have are in that sin or have been in that sin.  All men strugle with their eyes but through the strength of Jesus Christ we can have heavenly blinders.



It takes alot to admit things like that.  My hats off to you sir.  Glad everything is in order now, and that you're able to give a testimony and minister to the ones in need.  

I don't know the circumstances of how Pastor Brian confessed.  But it takes a lot of humility to admit his sin (especially looking at porn) to the world.  In all honesty, he didn't have to tell anyone other than God and ask Him for forgiveness.  Also, if he was caught, then he could have lied and denied the whole thing.  But he didn't lie.  He humbled himself instead.


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## eagles88 (Dec 20, 2007)

I beleive we all have those stumbling blocks in our lives and from time to time we stumble.  It is more what you do when you get up and dust of the sin and recieve only the forgiveness Christ can bring.  For me I have been able to share my story with others and I pray make a difference.  I am greatful to God Almighty that my family is firmly intact and we have grown stronger through what Satan wanted to use to tear us apart.  I ache for those that are still caught in the grips of pornography and pray for those men.  It can be a strong addiction.


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## Mako22 (Dec 21, 2007)

Three things will get a preacher in trouble:

1. Women
2. Food
3. Finances

That goes for all of us not just preachers.


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## leroy (Dec 21, 2007)

how will food get you in trouble


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## Spotlite (Dec 21, 2007)

Randy said:


> I am not holding out for perfection but neither will I attend a church led by a pastor who I know is a sinner.  I will not have a preacher who smokes leading my church.  I will not attend a church led by a preacher that has his own family problems.  I will not attend a church led by a pastor that has his own eating problems.  I hold pastors above the average man just as I hold cops above the average citizen.  More responsibility comes with leadership.



I agree 99%.

The only thing I could not hold against any man is the way his grown kids act, unless your speaking of directly in his home then I would say I with ya 100%.


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## BKA (Dec 21, 2007)

I read in a follow-up article that this pastor is also being treated for carpal tunnel syndrome


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## pfharris1965 (Jan 1, 2008)

*...*



carters93 said:


> Well obesity for one. A man who cannot control his appetite most likely will not be able to control his flesh in other areas. It is a matter of being able to discipline your flesh, to control it's carnal desires.


 
Might be caused by a medical condition as well...so it is not always about a person being out of control and therefore is not "...a matter of being able to discipline your flesh, to control it's carnal desires."...


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## pfharris1965 (Jan 1, 2008)

*...*



BKA said:


> I read in a follow-up article that this pastor is also being treated for carpal tunnel syndrome


 
     

Too funny...


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## dawg2 (Jan 1, 2008)

BKA said:


> I read in a follow-up article that this pastor is also being treated for carpal tunnel syndrome





I'm not saying anything else...but I could


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## dawg2 (Sep 24, 2008)

Good thread...


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## Banjo (Sep 24, 2008)

The United Methodist Church says this:

"We expect our clergy to uphold the highest moral and ethical standards," he said. "Online adult pornography does not follow those moral and ethical standards." 

Yet their entire denomination supports the murdering of unborn children.  Give me a break.

Straight from their official website:

"The beginning of life and the ending of life are the God-given boundaries of human existence. While individuals have always had some degree of control over when they would die, they now have the awesome power to determine when and even whether new individuals will be born. Our belief in the sanctity of unborn human life makes us reluctant to approve abortion. But we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother, for whom devastating damage may result from an unacceptable pregnancy. In continuity with past Christian teaching, we recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures. We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control, and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection."

Hmmmm.... what is an unacceptable pregnancy?

Birth defects, unwed mother,  ill-timing due to finances....


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## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

Banjo, 

I think you really are going off the deep end and you're WAY....  What are you talking about?

"we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother"  

That's what that means.  In the event that the life of the mother is in danger, then they support it.  You're trying to read something that isn't there.  Could it be worded better?  Probably.  But you are seriously out of your mind if you believe that "the entire denomination supports the murdering of unborn children.  

You are losing it girl!  You're seriously losing it!
*
They state very clearly there that they do not support abortion as a means of birth control*.  That covers EVERYTHING that you mentioned such as "Birth defects, unwed mother, ill-timing due to finances....".  

Their position is that, if the life of the mother is in danger, then they MUST respect the sacredness of her life and, thus, abortion would be acceptable.


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## Banjo (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntin...

Check out the following website...  

http://www.rcrc.org/

The United Methodists are listed as members of the Relgious Coalition for Reproductive Choice.  

Just go on there and read....


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## dawg2 (Sep 24, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Huntin...
> 
> Check out the following website...
> 
> ...



What religion are you again?


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## Banjo (Sep 24, 2008)

> What religion are you again?
> ______________



Christian.

Why?


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## rjcruiser (Sep 24, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> What religion are you again?



I'll chime in on this one....since PJason accuses others of being coy and having agendas.

Christian


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## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

"• Deeply concerned that more than 500,000 women in the world’s poorest countries die each year from pregnancy-related causes - most of which are preventable - the General Board of Church and Society and Women’s Division have worked with RCRC to increase religious support for family planning, safe motherhood, and community development programs. "

You're off your rocker if you seriously believe that the UM Church is in full support of abortion for any reason whatsoever.  You're writing as if they have an abortion clinic in the back of every sanctuary with a sign that says "Come on in!  We'll kill your baby for ya!"

Yes, the UM Church is in dire straights and is in danger of splitting over issues such as abortion and homosexuality.  The split would actually be a good thing IMO.  But the entire denomination does not support murdering unborn babies Banjo.  That's just the most ridiculous thing you've ever posted and IMO you should be ashamed of yourself.


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## dawg2 (Sep 24, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Christian.
> 
> Why?



jeez... 


Can you be more specific?  I was just CURIOUS.


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## dawg2 (Sep 24, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I'll chime in on this one....since PJason accuses others of being coy and having agendas.
> 
> Christian



  ...sweet mary mother of god....


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## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

BTW and to try to get this train back on its original track....porn and other "secret sins" are rampant in the Christian community.  Christians are not immune from Satan's attacks.  In fact, I would say that they are more likely to be attacked if they are in positions of authority.

I've often said that I don't want a pastor who is not constantly under Satan's attack.  If Satan doesn't feel the need to mess with him, I question why.

This is a prime example of why the congregation needs to partner with it's leadership to support them and pray for them constantly.  It's got to be an unbelievably heavy load to bear.


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## Banjo (Sep 24, 2008)

> Yes, the UM Church is in dire straights and is in danger of splitting over issues such as abortion and homosexuality. The split would actually be a good thing IMO. But the entire denomination does not support murdering unborn babies Banjo. That's just the most ridiculous thing you've ever posted and IMO you should be ashamed of yourself.



Funding:
Where does the Religious Coalition get its funding? 

The Religious Coalition is supported by private individuals and foundations that believe in our work and by contributions from our member organizations. We have two entities: the Religious Coalition Inc., a 501(c)(4) organization that conducts public policy and advocacy work, and the Educational Fund, a 501(c)(3) organization that promotes public awareness through educational programs, publications, leadership training, etc. Only donations to the Educational Fund are tax-deductible. Our financial information is available 

Here are the member organizations from the United Methodists:

United Methodist Church
General Board of Church and Society, 
http://www.umc-gbcs.org/site/c.frLJ...o_The_General_Board_of_Church_and_Society.htm

United Methodist Church
General Board of Global Ministries, Women’s Division
http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umw/

These both link directly to United Methodist's websites.


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## dawg2 (Sep 24, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Funding:
> Where does the Religious Coalition get its funding?
> 
> The Religious Coalition is supported by private individuals and foundations that believe in our work and by contributions from our member organizations. We have two entities: the Religious Coalition Inc., a 501(c)(4) organization that conducts public policy and advocacy work, and the Educational Fund, a 501(c)(3) organization that promotes public awareness through educational programs, publications, leadership training, etc. Only donations to the Educational Fund are tax-deductible. Our financial information is available
> ...



I find it amusing you won't say what church or denomination you are.


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## Banjo (Sep 24, 2008)

> Can you be more specific? I was just CURIOUS.



O.k.....

I am Reformed Presbyterian.....of this persuasion:


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## rjcruiser (Sep 24, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> jeez...
> 
> 
> Can you be more specific?  I was just CURIOUS.





dawg2 said:


> ...sweet mary mother of god....



Just trying to make sure that we are all being consistent with our terms.  Maybe you should be more specific with your question.  Rather than asking what religion, you should ask what denomination.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

You're still ridiculous Banjo.  Your assertion that they believe that abortion is justifiable in any situation is just not true and you know it.  

I've already pointed out that they state very clearly that they do not support abortion as a means of birth control.  That covers everything you've objected to.  

Don't bother "refuting" me on this one anymore.  I'm going to let this thread get back on track and I'm just not going to response to lunacy.


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## dawg2 (Sep 24, 2008)

Banjo said:


> O.k.....
> 
> I am Reformed Presbyterian.....of this persuasion:



No music then?


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## dawg2 (Sep 24, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Just trying to make sure that we are all being consistent with our terms.  Maybe you should be more specific with your question.  Rather than asking what religion, you should ask what denomination.



ok...what _*denomination*_ are YOU?  I don't remember seeing it posted before.


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## Randy (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> BTW and to try to get this train back on its original track....porn and other "secret sins" are rampant in the Christian community.  Christians are not immune from Satan's attacks.  In fact, I would say that they are more likely to be attacked if they are in positions of authority.
> 
> I've often said that I don't want a pastor who is not constantly under Satan's attack.  If Satan doesn't feel the need to mess with him, I question why.
> 
> This is a prime example of why the congregation needs to partner with it's leadership to support them and pray for them constantly.  It's got to be an unbelievably heavy load to bear.



OK back on track.  I expect all christians to be under attack by satan.  But I expect pastors not to fold under that attack especially on the major points.  Falling to porn is MAJOR.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 24, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> ok...what _*denomination*_ are YOU?  I don't remember seeing it posted before.



Well, I grew up in a non-denominational church but that doesn't answer your question either.  I currently go to a new church plant that is working towards becoming a part of the Southern Baptist convention.  I've got mixed emotions on that one, but that again, is another thread and another post.  Like all denominations, the good and the bad come along with it.  I'd say I'm on the more conservative side of things within the SBC, considering that I believe in the doctrine of election and some would call me a Calvinist (although you already know that).


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## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

Randy said:


> OK back on track.  I expect all christians to be under attack by satan.  But I expect pastors not to fold under that attack especially on the major points.  Falling to porn is MAJOR.



Of course it is.  And this guy fell and was removed from pastorship.  Falling to adultory is major too.  That happens to lots of people in ministry.  

People in ministry are supposed to be stronger than the rest of us I guess.  Why do you think Satan throws such major stuff at them?  He reserves his best for those who are the toughest for him to get to.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 24, 2008)

Randy said:


> OK back on track.  I expect all christians to be under attack by satan.  But I expect pastors not to fold under that attack especially on the major points.  Falling to porn is MAJOR.



I agree...I also think that any secret addiction will soon come to the surface...Just as the Bible states, you sin will find you out.

Something that starts out so small can snowball into something so big so quickly.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I agree...I also think that any secret addiction will soon come to the surface...Just as the Bible states, you sin will find you out.
> 
> Something that starts out so small can snowball into something so big so quickly.



You got THAT right.  That may be the truest post I've seen in a while.


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## Randy (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> People in ministry are supposed to be stronger than the rest of us I guess.



Yes you can ot lead a congregation ad preach to them on Sunday about what they are doing wrong if you are doing it also.  You lose their respect real quick.  He can only lead me if he is a better man than me.  If he has the same problems or worse, I am not following him.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

But we can't just leave them out there hanging and say "Well, you should be better than me."

We are called to partner with God to support those called to the ministry.  Not just financially.  I would submit that a pastor who falls to this is most likely not being consistently poured into by someone in the congregation.  He is not being consistently lifted up in prayer by many people in the congregation.  

Not that it isn't his fault.  I'm not saying that.  But too many of us just think they are supposed to do it on their own.

I read a study done recently that simply asked pastors to list out how many people's lives he knew intricately.  The answers were staggering.  They numbered in the multiple dozens.

When that same question was reversed "how many people know you deeply?"....most of them said ZERO!


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## Double Barrel BB (Sep 24, 2008)

Since I started this Thread, I would like to add:

Abortion in any case, is unacceptable in my eyes.

If you believe in life at the moment of Conception, the only innocent person is the one that is being killed...

DB BB


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## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> the only innocent person is the one that is being killed...
> 
> DB BB



and what would you say to the mother who will die if the pregnancy isn't aborted?

How about this one for a problem?  My wife was pregnant with an ectopic pregancy (tubal).  Conception had occurred, the baby was growing.  However, if the baby had been allowed to continue growing in that tube, ut would rupture and she would have eventually died.  Obviously, the pregnancy was not viable....the baby and the mother would have eventually died.  But are you telling me you don't support the decision to take shot to terminate that pregnancy to save the mother's life? 

Like I said, there was a conception.


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## Double Barrel BB (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> and what would you say to the mother who will die if the pregnancy isn't aborted?


 

Well, my wife and I have discussed this, and we have decided that no matter what, the child is not to be aborted. Doctors do not know 100% that the mother will die, ever... My wife and I trust God, to know what is best for our lives, if that was to mean I would raise the child without my wife, yes I would be heartbroken, but I atleast know that I am following the wishes of my Wife...

Birthing a child is the closest a woman ever comes to death, by natural causes....

DB BB


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## rjcruiser (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> and what would you say to the mother who will die if the pregnancy isn't aborted?
> 
> How about this one for a problem?  My wife was pregnant with an ectopic pregancy (tubal).  Conception had occurred, the baby was growing.  However, if the baby had been allowed to continue growing in that tube, ut would rupture and she would have eventually died.  Obviously, the pregnancy was not viable....the baby and the mother would have eventually died.  But are you telling me you don't support the decision to take shot to terminate that pregnancy to save the mother's life?
> 
> Like I said, there was a conception.



I have to agree with HuntinFool on this one.  The only case of abortion that I agree with is where the mother's life is in danger.  I know, it brings up the statement that God is in control and He can do miraculous things.  But if you say that and take tylenol or accept any medical treatment, your being a hypocrite.

I am thankful to the Lord that my wife and I haven't had to make a decision like that and pray we never will.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

The tube will rupture....the woman will die.

Glad you've come to that conclusion.  I won't condemn you for it.  I think you'd change your mind in the moment when your wife is dieing.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 24, 2008)

I will say, this thread has taken a lot of turns as well.  How do we go from a pastor and his porn addiction to terminating a pregnancy when the mother will die?


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## Double Barrel BB (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> The tube will rupture....the woman will die.


 
You are 100% sure she would die?

Even Doctors can't make that assumption...

There are other options than abortion...

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Sep 24, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I will say, this thread has taken a lot of turns as well. How do we go from a pastor and his porn addiction to terminating a pregnancy when the mother will die?


 
The later has been discussed on here before... I will try to dig up the thread...

DB BB


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## Jeffriesw (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> and what would you say to the mother who will die if the pregnancy isn't aborted?
> 
> How about this one for a problem?  My wife was pregnant with an ectopic pregancy (tubal).  Conception had occurred, the baby was growing.  However, if the baby had been allowed to continue growing in that tube, ut would rupture and she would have eventually died.  Obviously, the pregnancy was not viable....the baby and the mother would have eventually died.  But are you telling me you don't support the decision to take shot to terminate that pregnancy to save the mother's life?
> 
> Like I said, there was a conception.




I would also have to go with you on this one Huntin, I don't know if I could stand by and let my wife die either. I am very sorry and heart broken to hear that ya'll even had to deal with this. 
My prayers will always be with someone that kind of life or death situation.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> You are 100% sure she would die?
> 
> Even Doctors can't make that assumption...
> 
> ...



Barring divine intervention from God...yes I am 100% certain that she will die.  It's a medical certainty bud.  

Unless God intervenes miraculously, she WILL die.  It's not an assumption that doctors make.  It's like saying that if your heart stops beating, you're "assuming" that you'll die.

and if your response is "then you don't know for sure" I refer you to rj's post.  If anyone had ever taken medicine and holds that position then they would be a hypocrite in the strictest sense of the definition.


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## Big7 (Sep 24, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I'll chime in on this one....since PJason accuses others of being coy and having agendas.
> 
> Christian



pjason calls a spade... well... A SPADE!


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## Double Barrel BB (Sep 24, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Barring divine intervention from God...yes I am 100% certain that she will die. It's a medical certainty bud.
> 
> Unless God intervenes miraculously, she WILL die. It's not an assumption that doctors make. It's like saying that if your heart stops beating, you're "assuming" that you'll die.
> 
> and if your response is "then you don't know for sure" I refer you to rj's post. If anyone had ever taken medicine and holds that position then they would be a hypocrite in the strictest sense of the definition.


 

There has to be other options other than abortion, if we choose to not seek those out then that is a choice...

There is a huge difference in taking a pill to stop a headache and deciding to have an abortion..

We are going to have to agree to disagree, because I can tell you I will not budge on this stand...


If someone has had an abortion, I most definately will not hold that against them, I just want to make that clear...
DB BB


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## Huntinfool (Sep 24, 2008)

Yes, there are other options.  In our case it was certain death for both baby and mother.  So, if you insist, yes....there were other options.

Just because you want there to be another way, doesn't mean there is.  In this specific case, there is no other option other than seriously endangering the mother's life.


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## Double Barrel BB (Sep 24, 2008)

Then perhaps, physicians need to try and develop a way to transplant the child from the bad area to the proper area, instead of relying on abortion to be a fix all...

If it was my wife, I would ask that at least sometype of transplantation to be tried first..

I see your point, and your right I am not sure if I could make a decision that I know would be killing another human being... Hopefully God will find a way to either prepare me for that time, or help dr's find another way of dealing with the ectopic pregnancy...

DB BB


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