# The righteous will inherit the EARTH...



## Banjo (Mar 19, 2009)

Just doing a little reading with my girls when we came across the following verse in Proverbs:

"The righteous will never be removed, but the wicked will not inhabit the earth."

Proverbs 10:30....

How are we going to do that if the earth is going to be burned up with fire from a nuclear war?  How does that square up with the rapture where the righteous are plucked from the earth?


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## crackerdave (Mar 19, 2009)

My understanding is that there will be a new earth.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 19, 2009)

Prov 10:30
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The righteous will never be shaken, But the wicked will not dwell in the land.


Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

10:*29*. The believer grows stronger in faith, and obeys with increased delight. *30*. The wicked would be glad to have this earth their home for ever, but it cannot be so. They must die and leave all their idols behind. *31,32*. A good man discourses wisely for the benefit of others. But it is the sin, and will be the ruin of a wicked man, that he speaks what is displeasing to God, and provoking to those he converses with. The righteous is kept by the power of God; and nothing shall be able to separate him from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.


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## Lowjack (Mar 19, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Just doing a little reading with my girls when we came across the following verse in Proverbs:
> 
> "The righteous will never be removed, but the wicked will not inhabit the earth."
> 
> ...


That is human interpretation that it will be by a Nuclear holocoust and indeed there might be such an exchange, but if you notice Jerusalem is not destroyed, to me that verse Just proves that the rapture will be for the wicked while Righteous will remain and leave in peace, afterwards then the earth will be destroyed by fire and a new Earth Created.


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## farmasis (Mar 19, 2009)

*Proverbs 10:30 (New International Version)*


 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-16687 value="30">30</SUP> The righteous will never be uprooted, 
       but the wicked will not remain in the land.

*Proverbs 10:30 (New American Standard Bible)*


    <SUP class=versenum id=en-NASB-16687 value="30">30</SUP>The <SUP class=xref value='(A)'>(A)</SUP>righteous will never be shaken,
         But <SUP class=xref value='(B)'>(B)</SUP>the wicked will not dwell in the land. 

The other versions read a little different. I see what you are saying, and I never said I had all the answers (just slept in a Holiday Inn express  )

<TABLE width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width=5> </TD><TD vAlign=top width=150>twm</TD><TD width=5> </TD><TD vAlign=top width=150>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]a primitive root[/FONT]</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#c0c0c0><TD width=150 colSpan=2>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Transliterated Word[/FONT]</TD><TD width=150 colSpan=2>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD width=5> </TD><TD vAlign=top width=150>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Mowt[/FONT]</TD><TD width=5> </TD><TD vAlign=top width=150>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]mote[/FONT] 

  </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#c0c0c0><TD width=150 colSpan=2>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Parts of Speech[/FONT]</TD><TD width=150 colSpan=2>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]TWOT[/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD width=5> </TD><TD vAlign=top width=150>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Verb[/FONT]</TD><TD width=5> </TD><TD vAlign=top width=150>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]1158[/FONT]</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#000040><TD width=300 colSpan=4> [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]*Definition*[/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD width=5> </TD><TD width=300 colSpan=3>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]
to totter, shake, slip
(Qal) to totter, shake, slip
(Niphal) to be shaken, be moved, be overthrown
(Hiphil) to dislodge, let fall, drop
(Hithpael) to be greatly shaken

[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Proverbs was written to Jews, but this was written to me.
 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-26664 value="1">1</SUP> “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-26665 value="2">2</SUP> In My Father’s house are many mansions;<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> if _it were_ not _so,_ I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.<SUP class=footnote value='[b]'>[b]</SUP> <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-26666 value="3">3</SUP> And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, _there_ you may be also. (John 14)


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## earl (Mar 19, 2009)

rangerdave , would you elaborate ? That is a totally new one for me.  Thanks.


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## crackerdave (Mar 19, 2009)

earl said:


> rangerdave , would you elaborate ? That is a totally new one for me.  Thanks.



I think the "new heaven and new earth" is in Revelations - not sure.Can anybody help us out here?


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## jmharris23 (Mar 19, 2009)

Here is one of the passages 2 Peter 3:3-13

3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.﻿
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.﻿ That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.


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## jmharris23 (Mar 19, 2009)

The other one is Revelation 21:1


Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.


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## Lowjack (Mar 19, 2009)

rangerdave said:


> My understanding is that there will be a new earth.


Yes ,But Before that

Matthew 13:40-43 (New King James Version)
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


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## earl (Mar 19, 2009)

OK . One step further . How does this new earth play in conjunction with going to heaven ? I presumed that earth was to be he11.


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## farmasis (Mar 19, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> That is human interpretation that it will be by a Nuclear holocoust and indeed there might be such an exchange, but if you notice Jerusalem is not destroyed, to me that verse Just proves that the rapture will be for the wicked while Righteous will remain and leave in peace, afterwards then the earth will be destroyed by fire and a new Earth Created.


 
Of course, will disagree that the rapture is for the wicked.

The wicked, will be removed from the future kingdom, but not by the rapture.

[Rev 3:10] Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

[1 Thess 1:10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


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## farmasis (Mar 19, 2009)

earl said:


> OK . One step further . How does this new earth play in conjunction with going to heaven ? I presumed that earth was to be he11.


 
Check these out.

http://www.gotquestions.org/questions_eternity.html


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## jmharris23 (Mar 19, 2009)

This is a very basic explanation earl. But the idea of these passages is that where we live, what we've built, all of our great cities, our great building, and all of our achievements will be disintegrated to nothing, and that when we stand before God at judgment we will have nothing to point to as our own. 

The bible teaches that this earth as we know it will one day cease to exist and God will create a New Heaven and a New Earth. 
In the book of Revelation we learn that the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven to earth (Rv 21:2, 10) and forms the eternal dwelling place of God and his people. The new earth will be a place of perfect righteousness (Is 51:6), divine kindness (54:10), eternal relationship to God (66:22), and total freedom from sin (Rom 8:21). In essence the new earth will be what you think of now as Heaven. The new heaven will be a new universe or "starry expanse"


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## earl (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks


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## Lowjack (Mar 19, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Of course, will disagree that the rapture is for the wicked.
> 
> The wicked, will be removed from the future kingdom, but not by the rapture.
> 
> ...



Well you can dissagree with me if you want, but the Lord Himself said they would be raptured by the angels ???
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! 
Can't be any clearer than that????????


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## Lowjack (Mar 19, 2009)

This is a Study By Rabbi Heliel.
Hashem Is God known To Jews as "The Name"

Bereshit (Genesis) 13:14-15 HaShem said to Abram after Lot had parted from him, "Lift up your eyes from where you are and look north and south, east and west. All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring forever.



If Abram does not get his land, on earth, forever, then HaShem is a liar!



Shemot (Exodus) 32:13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.'"



If Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob don't get this land, on earth, forever, then HaShem is a liar (G-d forbid!).



Yahoshua (Joshua) 14:9 So on that day Moses swore to me, 'The land on which your feet have walked will be your inheritance and that of your children forever, because you have followed HaShem my G-d wholeheartedly.'



If Joshua, the Israelites, and their descendants don't get this land, on earth, forever, then HaShem is a liar (G-d forbid!).



Tehillim (Psalms) 37:8-11 Refrain from anger and turn from wrath; do not fret--it leads only to evil. For evil men will be cut off, but those who hope in HaShem will inherit the land. A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. But the meek will inherit the land and enjoy great peace.



Tehillim (Psalms) 37:27-29 Turn from evil and do good; then you will dwell in the land forever. For HaShem loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off; The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever. 



Who is the Psalmist addressing? Obviously the righteous! Yeshua echoed this same sentiment in:



Matityahu (Matthew) 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 



Yechezkel (Ezekiel) 37:21-28 And say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign HaShem says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their G-d. "'My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their G-d, and they will be my people. Then the nations will know that I HaShem make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.'"



Here we plainly have the righteous being called Israelites, and they inherit the land. 



With this background, lets look at the classic passages used to justify a rapture of the righteous to heaven: 



I Thessalonians 4:15-18 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of G-d, and the dead in Mashiach will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.



Notice that the destination is not specified as heaven. There is also no mention of these righteous going anywhere! We see clearly that they will be "with the Lord" forever. So, where will the Lord be?



Revelation 21:1-4 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from G-d, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of G-d is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and G-d himself will be with them and be their G-d. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."



HaShem will be dwelling with men on earth! This means that we will be on earth with Him.



Another passage often used to support a rapture is:



Matityahu (Matthew) 24:36-42 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; And they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.



Luqas (Luke) 17:34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left... 



The above passage presumes that we know what happened in the days of Noah. So, lets look at what happened in the days of Noah:



Bereshit (Genesis) 7:1-4 HaShem then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, And also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."



It appears that Noah and his family were the only ones who were not taken from the land of the living. Noah is the only one righteous in this generation. Therefore, we can see that the wicked were all destroyed. In this passage we also note that no one was physically removed from the earth. 



So, in the Matthew passage, the ones who were taken away were the wicked ones (note that all were taken away by the flood).



Matityahu (Matthew) 24:36-42 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; And they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all (wicked) away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; (the wicked) one will be taken (by the flood) and the other left (the righteous one). Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; (the wicked) one will be taken (by the flood) and the other left (the righteous one). "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.



We can see that in the days of Noah, and in the days of the return of the Mashiach, that the wicked will be taken and the righteous will remain on earth. If there is a rapture, the only ones raptured will be the wicked. In the days of Noah we see the righteous preserved in the midst of the tribulation which killed the wicked. They were not removed from it.



This parable and the story of Noah are both consistent with the pattern HaShem has shown in the Torah. Lets look at what happened to Sodom and Gamorah:



Bereshit (Genesis) 18:20-25 Then HaShem said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gamorah is so great and their sin so grievous That I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know." The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before HaShem. Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing--to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" 



Luqas (Luke) 17:28-30 "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. "It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.



Again the pattern is consistent; the wicked are killed and the righteous stay on earth.



Mashiach, in Matthew 24, is repeating what the TaNaK[1] has consistently taught. Observe:



Mishlei (Proverbs) 2:21-22 For the upright will live in the land, and the blameless will remain in it; But the wicked will be cut off from the land, and the unfaithful will be torn from it.



Mishlei (Proverbs) 3:25-26 Have no fear of sudden disaster or of the ruin that overtakes the wicked, For HaShem will be your confidence and will keep your foot from being snared.



Mishlei (Proverbs) 10:30 The righteous will never be uprooted, but the wicked will not remain in the land.



Tehillim (Psalms) 37:9 For evil men will be cut off, but those who hope in HaShem will inherit the land.



Tehillim (Psalms) 37:10 A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found.



Tehillim (Psalms) 37:22 Those HaShem blesses will inherit the land, but those he curses will be cut off.



Tehillim (Psalms) 37:28 For HaShem loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;



Tehillim (Psalms) 37:29 The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever.



Mishlei (Proverbs) 10:25 When the storm has swept by, the wicked are gone, but the righteous stand firm forever.



Lets also notice that this is consistent with what Yeshua spoke in other places:



Matityahu (Matthew) 13:24-30 Yeshua told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. "The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?' "'An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' "'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"



The first to be taken are the wicked weeds. We also know that Yeshua's barn is the Temple from:



Malachi 3:10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says HaShem Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.



This barn, that the righteous are gathered into, is the Temple (My house) which is in Jerusalem, on earth.



The constant refrain of scripture is echoed in:



Tehillim (Psalms) 115:16 The highest heavens belong to HaShem, but the earth he has given to man.



We never see men dwelling in heaven, but we do see HaShem coming to dwell with men:



Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of G-d is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and G-d himself will be with them and be their G-d.



Yochanan (John) 3:12-14 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,



Mashiach says that NO ONE has gone into heaven except ... 



Some have suggested that Enoch and Elijah were raptured and that this is the precedent for the rapture of ALL the righteous. I point out that there were more righteous folks on earth at the time of these two men, yet they were not taken. I suggest that these two do not represent a decent argument for the rapture of all the righteous.



I think that the ecclessia is the ecclessia of II Luqas (Acts) 7:38. These Torah observant folks are promised an inheritance of land in Israel. These folks are eagrely looking forward to the promised land. So, when they are gathered from the four corners of the earth, their destination is the land of Israel. This is the total focus.



Another verse used to teach rapture is:



Revelation 20:4-5 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Yeshua and because of the word of G-d. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Mashiach a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.



We can see an obvious resurrection and we see the righteous reigning with Yeshua. Lets go see where we reign:



Yirimiyah (Jeremiah) 23:5 "The days are coming," declares HaShem, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.



Revelation 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our G-d, and they will reign on the earth."



Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Mashiach, and he will reign for ever and ever."



I can conclude that the resurrection of Revelation 20:3-4 will have the righteous resurrected and reigning with Yeshua on earth.



The next rapture passage is:



II Thessalonians 2:1-3 Concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua Mashiach and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, Not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.



This passage indicates that we will be gathered to Him. There is no hint of where the gathering place is. Since we know that we will be reigning with Him for a thousand years, Revelation 20:4, and since we know that He will be reigning on earth, we can infer that the place is earth.



Some see rapture in this passage:



Matityahu (Matthew) 24:29-31 "Immediately after the distress of those days 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.



Marqos (Mark) 13:24-27 "But in those days, following that distress, 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; The stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' "At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.



Again, no destination is mentioned. I see nothing to indicate that the righteous leave the earth, and our previous scriptures seem to indicate that our destination is Israel.



Lets start by asking why the following folks don't get to be raptured? Why do they have a dwelling on earth forever whilst others have another dwelling place?:



Tehilim (Psalm) 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell therein for ever.



This would be manifestly unfair!



Now, lets ask another question: If HaShem wanted folks to be dwelling in heaven, why didn't He do that in the first place? Obviously Gan Eden was the ideal place for man. This is consistent with Psalm 37:29.



Now, lets clinch this deal:



Revelatiob 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from G-d,



In this verse we see the place that was prepared in Yochanan (John) chapter 14. Yes, it WAS in heaven. However, the place where it will be used by the righteous will be ON EARTH! This also is consistent with Psalm 37:29.



Thus we see that Yochanan (John) 14 does not SAY that the righteous are going to heaven, rather that the place that is being prepared is in heaven.



CONCLUSION:



The TaNaK and the Nazarean Codicil[2] agree that the righteous have their eternal dwelling on earth. We do not ever see people dwelling in heaven. The scripture all agree that only the wicked are removed from the earth. I see no justification for saying that the righteous will be raptured to heaven. The pattern of scripture is for HaShem to protect the righteous in the midst of tribulation, not to remove them.


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## Lowjack (Mar 19, 2009)

Not To Over Killed but;

“Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth” (Matthew 5:5). 
Ps 25
13 His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth

PSm 37
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. 
Psalms 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psalms 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.


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## connorreid (Mar 20, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Just doing a little reading with my girls when we came across the following verse in Proverbs:
> 
> "The righteous will never be removed, but the wicked will not inhabit the earth."
> 
> ...


 From my understanding the Bible teaches that Christ is the second Adam and He brings RESTORATION.  The "creation groan and labors" - Rom 8:22 and also just before that in Rom 8:21 - "b/c the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption".  Doesn't look like the Lord will destroy the earth to me.  I don't think that is what the Bible LITERALLY teaches.  I think it's symbolic of the old one passing away.  What do you think????


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## Miguel Cervantes (Mar 20, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Just doing a little reading with my girls when we came across the following verse in Proverbs:
> 
> "The righteous will never be removed, but the wicked will not inhabit the earth."
> 
> ...


 
That verse doesn't necessarily incinuate that the righteous will survive! My Bible says the Meek will inherit the Earth and those that are persecuted for Righteousnes sake will inherit the Kingdom of God, and it certainly doesn't say anything about a "rapture".

Matthew 5
<SUP>5</SUP>Blessed are the meek, 
      for they will inherit the earth.


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## farmasis (Mar 20, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Well you can dissagree with me if you want, but the Lord Himself said they would be raptured by the angels ???
> 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
> Can't be any clearer than that????????


 
I am not disagreeing with you.
We are talking about 2 seperate events. The rapture of the church and the purging of the kingdom. You will not get an argument out of me that Jesus will establish his kingdom on earth, that he will remove the unrighteous from it. We will just have to disagree on the interpretation that prior to this, and the great tribulation, the church will be remove from the earth and will return with Jesus to set up his kingdom.


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## crackerdave (Mar 20, 2009)

earl said:


> Thanks



x2!


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## pigpen1 (Mar 20, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I am not disagreeing with you.
> We are talking about 2 seperate events. The rapture of the church and the purging of the kingdom. You will not get an argument out of me that Jesus will establish his kingdom on earth, that he will remove the unrighteous from it. We will just have to disagree on the interpretation that prior to this, and the great tribulation, the church will be remove from the earth and will return with Jesus to set up his kingdom.



 If there will be no sin in the "Kingdom" that you are talking about, then where will satan get his army to fight Christ with at the closing of the 1000yrs?  If satan can gather a army against Christ then that proves SIN during that time....


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## pigpen1 (Mar 20, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I am not disagreeing with you.
> We are talking about 2 seperate events. The rapture of the church and the purging of the kingdom. You will not get an argument out of me that Jesus will establish his kingdom on earth, that he will remove the unrighteous from it. We will just have to disagree on the interpretation that prior to this, and the great tribulation, the church will be remove from the earth and will return with Jesus to set up his kingdom.



 Matt 16:28-17:1

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom .
KJV
      Again, if you see these 2000yr old Jews that have not died tell them I would like to talk to them...


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## farmasis (Mar 20, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> If there will be no sin in the "Kingdom" that you are talking about, then where will satan get his army to fight Christ with at the closing of the 1000yrs? If satan can gather a army against Christ then that proves SIN during that time....


 
Never said there will be sin, because the unrighteous will be removed.

They will not be in his kingdom.

Are you throwing this out also?

<SUP>7</SUP> Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-31041 value="8">8</SUP> and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number _is_ as the sand of the sea. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-31042 value="9">9</SUP> They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-31043 value="10">10</SUP> The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where<SUP class=footnote value='[b]'>[b]</SUP> the beast and the false prophet _are._ And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20)


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## farmasis (Mar 20, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Matt 16:28-17:1
> 
> 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom .
> KJV
> Again, if you see these 2000yr old Jews that have not died tell them I would like to talk to them...


 

This refers to Jesus's transfiguration, not his return. 'Those' standing there would have been Peter, James and John.


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## ToLog (Mar 20, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Never said there will be sin, because the unrighteous will be removed.
> 
> They will not be in his kingdom.
> 
> ...




so, in the coming New Age, there will be Humans on Earth, eating, sleeping, and reproducing, as descendants of the True God. (the human population will increase.)

or, they will be "spiritual" beings, flying around, enjoying the natural landscape, but not consuming a single calorie?

these are tough subjects. we may not get it right, in the first go-around, but likely we'll get it "right" sooner or later.

Personally, i can't imagine God spending immense energies to create a Heaven and an Earth, then not trying to make the most of what he has Created?


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## farmasis (Mar 20, 2009)

roothog said:


> so, in the coming New Age, there will be Humans on Earth, eating, sleeping, and reproducing, as descendants of the True God. (the human population will increase.)
> 
> or, they will be "spiritual" beings, flying around, enjoying the natural landscape, but not consuming a single calorie?
> 
> ...


 
During the millenium yes, there will be children born and the earth will grow and experience an era of peace. There will be saints raptured from earth in their glorified body, those killed during tribulation in their glorified body, and those that survived tribulation and did not take the mark of the beast in their human form.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 20, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Matt 16:28-17:1
> 
> 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom .
> KJV
> Again, if you see these 2000yr old Jews that have not died tell them I would like to talk to them...



I agree with you Pigpen. Waiting to meet that 2000 yr old bagel salesman.

Funny how everyone explains this away as his transfiguration or something... 

When in reality people still living saw the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple (He also foretold of the destruction of the temple). Those saw the fall of Jerusalem to Rome and not a stone was left standing. The only kingdom left to them was to realize the Kingdom of Christ.


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## farmasis (Mar 20, 2009)

*Sorry, what I meant to say was this happened at his transfiguration and was referring to his ascention, not his return.*


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## celticfisherman (Mar 20, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Ahh, so you are one of those preterist?



Ahhh so your a defeatist.


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## farmasis (Mar 20, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Ahhh so your a defeatist.


 
No, just a Bible believer.

You responded too fast.    I didn't want to get this thread off in yet another direction.


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## pigpen1 (Mar 20, 2009)

farmasis said:


> *Sorry, what I meant to say was this happened at his transfiguration and was referring to his ascention, not his return.*



 It says "His Kingdom" but you say that is yet to come...

so just keep changing things as needed...


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## farmasis (Mar 20, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> It says "His Kingdom" but you say that is yet to come...
> 
> so just keep changing things as needed...


 
When did I say his kingdom is yet to come? His earthly kingdom, yes. It has yet to be established.

You asked me if the millenial rule will be Christ's kingdom, and I said it will be part of the Kingdom of God.

I also denied that he is not ruling now.


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## PWalls (Mar 20, 2009)

"Tone" people. Keep it out of the "personal" please.


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## pigpen1 (Mar 20, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I am not disagreeing with you.
> We are talking about 2 seperate events. The rapture of the church and the purging of the kingdom. You will not get an argument out of me that Jesus will establish his kingdom on earth, that he will remove the unrighteous from it. We will just have to disagree on the interpretation that prior to this, and the great tribulation, the church will be remove from the earth and will return with Jesus to set up his kingdom.



Luke 17:20-21

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
KJV


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## farmasis (Mar 20, 2009)

I believe Jesus' earthly reign will begin as scripture says it will here:

<SUP>31</SUP> “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy<SUP class=footnote value='[c]'>[c]</SUP> angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-24035 value="32">32</SUP> All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another (Matt 25)

It fits nicely with:
*The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years*

<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-31037 value="4">4</SUP> And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. ..And they lived and reigned with Christ for a<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> thousand years. ..<SUP>11</SUP> Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it..And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-31046 value="13">13</SUP> The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev. 20)


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## PWalls (Mar 20, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I believe Jesus' earthly reign will begin as scripture says it will here:
> 
> <SUP>31</SUP> “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy<SUP class=footnote value='[c]'>[c]</SUP> angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-24035 value="32">32</SUP> All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another (Matt 25)
> 
> ...



That is how I am led to interpret it as well.


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## farmasis (Mar 20, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Luke 17:20-21
> 
> 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
> 
> ...


 
No doubt, as predicted in Isaiah with the new covenant.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 20, 2009)

Didn't Jesus say that His kingdom is not of this world?


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## farmasis (Mar 20, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Didn't Jesus say that His kingdom is not of this world?


 
Great point!

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." (John 18:36)


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## pigpen1 (Mar 20, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Didn't Jesus say that His kingdom is not of this world?



yep..John 18:36

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
KJV


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## reformedpastor (Mar 20, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> yep..John 18:36
> 
> 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
> KJV



Ok. If you are correct in what you are implying here, then the Lord's prayer is just empty words. "Thy will be done on earth (in this world) as it is in heaven." The world has many meanings, so, just to remind all of you who want to copy and paste dictionary meanings to certain words, its always the context the word is used in that gives it its meaning. Just reminding. 

Just let the bible say what it say's. The righteous will inherit the earth. In all of the major judgments who was taken away? The flood-wicked; when ever Israel sinned they expelled out of the land. 

I thought Jesus came to restore? Aren't we in the new heavens and earth now?


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## Ronnie T (Mar 20, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> Ok. If you are correct in what you are implying here, then the Lord's prayer is just empty words. "Thy will be done on earth (in this world) as it is in heaven." The world has many meanings, so, just to remind all of you who want to copy and paste dictionary meanings to certain words, its always the context the word is used in that gives it its meaning. Just reminding.
> 
> Just let the bible say what it say's. The righteous will inherit the earth. In all of the major judgments who was taken away? The flood-wicked; when ever Israel sinned they expelled out of the land.
> 
> I thought Jesus came to restore? Aren't we in the new heavens and earth now?



What?


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## Lowjack (Mar 20, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I believe Jesus' earthly reign will begin as scripture says it will here:
> 
> <SUP>31</SUP> “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy<SUP class=footnote value='[c]'>[c]</SUP> angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-24035 value="32">32</SUP> All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another (Matt 25)
> 
> ...



The Problem I see here is that some confuse the Kingdom of God, with the Kingdom of God Coming to Earth Physically and then also the reign of Christ which began with his ascension. All of those can be called the Kingdom.
The First One is the Kingdom of God which has no beginning.
The second one is about to come and Overlaps the reign of Christ.
Is that easy to understand ?


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## mtnwoman (Mar 21, 2009)

earl said:


> OK . One step further . How does this new earth play in conjunction with going to heaven ? I presumed that earth was to be he11.



I always presumed, by what I understood by scripture, that the earth would return to something like the garden of eden....this earth will be heaven if in fact heaven is a physical place. I always think I'll live forever on a beautiful earth and enjoy all the things that are here. Possibly being able to swim in the ocean like a fish or fly like an eagle (no scripture, just desires). 

I also believe that the heaven part will be my relationship with Jesus, and to know that I am loved unconditionally which is something I've sought most of my life....to be accepted and loved uncondtionally. So my mental and physical desires of my heart will be given to me by my Father.


I don't exactly know how all this will transpire but if I get to make a choice, a,b,c,d,e, or f.... I'll take rapture, pretrib.


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## crackerdave (Mar 21, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> I always presumed, by what I understood by scripture, that the earth would return to something like the garden of eden....this earth will be heaven if in fact heaven is a physical place. I always think I'll live forever on a beautiful earth and enjoy all the things that are here. Possibly being able to swim in the ocean like a fish or fly like an eagle (no scripture, just desires).
> 
> I also believe that the heaven part will be my relationship with Jesus, and to know that I am loved unconditionally which is something I've sought most of my life....to be accepted and loved uncondtionally. So my mental and physical desires of my heart will be given to me by my Father.
> 
> ...



Amen! 
God can  easily "rebuild" this earth into the paradise that it was in the days of Eden.Time is nothing to God,and won't be for us either,when we go to live with Him.
All I know about heaven is that it will be far better than our puny lil' minds can conceive.


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## Israel (Mar 21, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> Ok. If you are correct in what you are implying here, then the Lord's prayer is just empty words. "Thy will be done on earth (in this world) as it is in heaven." The world has many meanings, so, just to remind all of you who want to copy and paste dictionary meanings to certain words, its always the context the word is used in that gives it its meaning. Just reminding.
> 
> Just let the bible say what it say's. The righteous will inherit the earth. In all of the major judgments who was taken away? The flood-wicked; when ever Israel sinned they expelled out of the land.
> 
> I thought Jesus came to restore? Aren't we in the new heavens and earth now?




Amen.
If we can agree that the outworking of what Jesus has established in the heavenly places is going to manifest itself just as fully here in the earth.
I would ask, trusting you to agree, what is the first "earth" in which this Kingdom must fully come to fruition for it to break forth and spread? (And by first I do not mean separate, but that first portion of the earth in which God's will is made known)
Is it not those who follow Jesus as Lord? Are not these earthen vessels to be dedicated to the God who is a consuming fire to be so ignited and ablaze that in God's good time, when  he has decreed, that what is true in our hearts, minds and bodies, is as true as it is in heaven, this must surely take place?
What sort of people are we to be? I believe you can answer that from scripture.
And being those people can we begin to understand what Jesus meant when he said "If they do this when the tree is green...?"
I can pour a 5 gallon tin of gasoline on a green tree, and despite the amazing burst, come back in 20 minutes to behold the fire out and a still very substantial "green" log.
But and if I find a dessicated old forest I need only a spark to burn it all to the ground.
Wickedness is precisely that, a dry, dead, withered heart with no strength to stand in the day of testing.
Since the resurrection, what must go has resisted the Lord, and despite it's appearance to be flourishing (David had some insight into this in the Psalms), it has only been according to the Lord's will for the Lord's purpose it has been allowed. (And Paul had insight into God's forbearance with the wicked for our benefit...that we might learn of longsuffering in allowing what he could easily remove, but has established that we might learn his mercy).
And so in God's time we shall see come to pass what is firmly established as the truth in our hearts. By faith some now apprehend it, and must be patient with those who would make God's Kingdom a "later" matter. For it is even in the being patient that God works his good will and good pleasure out in us to be fully fitting "igniters" for the time he has decreed. 
That just as Satan no longer found a place in heaven, he will lose his toehold in the earth.
God's earth.
What one sees as God's weakness, powerlessness, or non existence, we know to be his mercy, forbearance and love. 
And inexorable will.


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## pigpen1 (Mar 21, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> Ok. If you are correct in what you are implying here, then the Lord's prayer is just empty words. "Thy will be done on earth (in this world) as it is in heaven." The world has many meanings, so, just to remind all of you who want to copy and paste dictionary meanings to certain words, its always the context the word is used in that gives it its meaning. Just reminding.
> 
> Just let the bible say what it say's. The righteous will inherit the earth. In all of the major judgments who was taken away? The flood-wicked; when ever Israel sinned they expelled out of the land.
> 
> I thought Jesus came to restore? Aren't we in the new heavens and earth now?



 If you are saying Jesus has no Kingdom then how did God translate us into it???Col 1:12-13

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 
KJV


 And if Christ does not have a Kingdom yet, how was John in it when he was alive and here on earth???Rev 1:9

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV


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## gordon 2 (Mar 21, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> That is human interpretation that it will be by a Nuclear holocoust and indeed there might be such an exchange, but if you notice Jerusalem is not destroyed, to me that verse Just proves that the rapture will be for the wicked while Righteous will remain and leave in peace, afterwards then the earth will be destroyed by fire and a new Earth Created.



Does not Peter say in the Acts that His day, then, as he walked the ground,  is/was  the end times?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And once more, I could easily say, in the death and resurection of Jesus, from the end times Peter talks about, your notion of the rapture, happened then on a spiritual level. For Jesus, because of the Christ, wickedness is left behind for those who are called! 

The earth prior to the cross, the world of the  fall from Eden?, is indeed destroyed by spritual fire and  from the earth after the scorching fire of the cross and the gift of the Holy Spirit which is now available, again! once more!, to all. 

With Jesus the earth is indeed recreated. He brings back the new Adam full of grace! The meek, the rightious do inherit the new landsape, those called! but it is not a physical one, as an orchard or a berry field that sprouts up after a consuming fire! It is not a political one either. It is a spiritual landscape that the pilgrim who is called, can now occupy and which before Jesus did not exist! except, we are told, before the fall.

Did Jesus use the sword of the Romans to hack for us a landscape onto the earth? NO! He did not. Did he use the tools given to him by his spiritual father to give us a new landscape? YOU BET!

And yet today you would that the Champion of your faith, Jesus, use War and Conflict to do justice for his people as in the days of the prophets and Moses? Your pearls are from the wrong neckless! You would that God subjugate, make prisoner, eradicate, cut off, burn, bomb, mutilate, distroy and Jesus his fool?


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## reformedpastor (Mar 21, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> If you are saying Jesus has no Kingdom then how did God translate us into it???Col 1:12-13
> 
> 12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
> 
> ...




No. All I said was His kingdom is not OF (originate) this world but is IN (where it has expression, reality) this world. His kingdom is governed by His word and Spirit, the world by the the spirit of the age, which is according to everyone's OWN standard. Doing what is right in their own eyes. 

God's kingdom in Christ is here now and on earth. He has been given all authority, past tense, in heaven and EARTH, which He exercised immediately  by sending out His disciples to baptize and teach the nations.


Is this clearer?


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## Lowjack (Mar 21, 2009)

gordon 2 said:


> Does not Peter say in the Acts that His day, then, as he walked the ground,  is/was  the end times?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> And once more, I could easily say, in the death and resurection of Jesus, from the end times Peter talks about, your notion of the rapture, happened then on a spiritual level. For Jesus, because of the Christ, wickedness is left behind for those who are called!
> 
> ...



Don't know how you interpret all of that from what I said ???????


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## vanguard1 (Mar 21, 2009)

is it just me or does lowjack look like barney miller? lol  just asking.


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## pigpen1 (Mar 21, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> No. All I said was His kingdom is not OF (originate) this world but is IN (where it has expression, reality) this world. His kingdom is governed by His word and Spirit, the world by the the spirit of the age, which is according to everyone's OWN standard. Doing what is right in their own eyes.
> 
> God's kingdom in Christ is here now and on earth. He has been given all authority, past tense, in heaven and EARTH, which He exercised immediately  by sending out His disciples to baptize and teach the nations.
> 
> ...


 
 I agree, I was hoping you were not leaning toward Farmasis's doctrine...lol


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## gordon 2 (Mar 21, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Don't know how you interpret all of that from what I said ???????



My dear brother, I hope you know I love you and do not wish to get on your case to deminish you and prop myself up. I am usually nothing before men and most likely less before God. 

The reason I interpret all of that is because of this statement only, "to me that verse Just proves that the rapture will be". And then you go about to explain that God's people will be left intact...

My "all of that" is simply for my conscern that God's will is missed, that christians would place their hope and faith in the end times, as it were fate and the distruction of the world or the enemy,  and not in the rapture that was Christ's resurection to spiritual life...

 It is my concern that if justice is to be done only when the end comes, we will always accept that we can act in disgrace and get away with it.

You my brother certainly don't have to agree, as I am if right, only partly right as my heart is far from purity, but I try. Brother I try to serve to life and not dwell and hope on death, even my enemy's.

That is all.


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## Lowjack (Mar 21, 2009)

gordon 2 said:


> My dear brother, I hope you know I love you and do not wish to get on your case to deminish you and prop myself up. I am usually nothing before men and most likely less before God.
> 
> The reason I interpret all of that is because of this statement only, "to me that verse Just proves that the rapture will be". And then you go about to explain that God's people will be left intact...
> 
> ...


Thank you brother for the explanation, but I cannot belief in a doctrine that is not clearly defined in the Word.
It is clear that there will be a rapture And I go By What The Master said in MAt 24, at the end of the tribulation he will returned and with a trumpet sound will send his angels to gather his elect, so I have to stick with that and believe the rapture is post trib event.
NOW ! I wish it was a pre-trib event and that would make it a very soon event , I will rejoice then very much to see my Grandson that died in August whole in an eternal body and to see my Grandpa and Grandma and my Father Abraham and Judah, OH what a great day that would be.

Anyways in the event that I'm Wrong and you are right, please do me a favor as you fly by Florida heading East ,look out for me, I'll be standing in my front yard holding my arms up, Just grab me and pull me up with you,OK ? LOL


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## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> In all of the major judgments who was taken away?


 
Let's do go there...

Flood-- Noah, being found a just man, and family removed then the earth destroyed.

Now what did Jesus say?

37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. (Matt 24)

Soddom- Lot and family were the only ones found righteous and they were removed before it was destroyed.

What did Jesus say?

28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. (Luke 17)


Notice both times that Jesus said it will be like the secong coming, the righteous were removed.


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## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I agree, I was hoping you were not leaning toward Farmasis's doctrine...lol


 
Not mine...it's God's and all in the book.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 21, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Thank you brother for the explanation, but I cannot belief in a doctrine that is not clearly defined in the Word.
> It is clear that there will be a rapture And I go By What The Master said in MAt 24, at the end of the tribulation he will returned and with a trumpet sound will send his angels to gather his elect, so I have to stick with that and believe the rapture is post trib event.
> NOW ! I wish it was a pre-trib event and that would make it a very soon event , I will rejoice then very much to see my Grandson that died in August whole in an eternal body and to see my Grandpa and Grandma and my Father Abraham and Judah, OH what a great day that would be.
> 
> Anyways in the event that I'm Wrong and you are right, please do me a favor as you fly by Florida heading East ,look out for me, I'll be standing in my front yard holding my arms up, Just grab me and pull me up with you,OK ? LOL




I am flying over you house at the end of April but I expect to land. I'm going down bros, not up. I'm in St Petersburg or thereabouts, then. Peace....

My initial understand of the scripture you talk about, Math 24, is that Jesus is talking about His resurrection followed by the "get her done" Holy Spirit which he provided for us.

My understanding for this, from scripture, is from John 17 and 18.

However, if you are right in my view Jesus was for noth... but I am getting old and wisdom was mine yrs ago, before I got old.


Peace bros.


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## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> No. All I said was His kingdom is not OF (originate) this world but is IN (where it has expression, reality) this world. His kingdom is governed by His word and Spirit, the world by the the spirit of the age, which is according to everyone's OWN standard. Doing what is right in their own eyes.
> 
> God's kingdom in Christ is here now and on earth. He has been given all authority, past tense, in heaven and EARTH, which He exercised immediately by sending out His disciples to baptize and teach the nations.
> 
> ...


 
His kingdom is here now because the kingdom of God is in the hearts of believers. Not the same as his earthly reign that is to come.

Reformed, is Satan bound right now?


----------



## crackerdave (Mar 21, 2009)

Hey - I know what let's do! BAN Satan! He's a mean ol' serpent that does nothing BUT personal attacks,and he don't play by the rules.

Mods - can you handle him?


----------



## pigpen1 (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> His kingdom is here now because the kingdom of God is in the hearts of believers. Not the same as his earthly reign that is to come.
> 
> Reformed, is Satan bound right now?



 I will let the Book answer that.....Matt 12:27-29

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils , by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
KJV



  Christ said if he cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the Kingdom of God is come unto you....

  Then read what he said in vrs 29.....Christ came into this world where Satan had control [strong man], But Satan was only a strong man, Christ is the Stronger, He bound Satan By taking the keys of death and he11 from him. Christ conquered death, He11, and the grave, and Sin. He gave us the Holy Ghost where by Satan has no power over the Spirit of God, thus Satan is bound...not that he doesn't have power, but his power is limited like a pit bull on a chain.

 Even you premills teach that with the rapture of the church the Holy Spirit will be taken out to give the antichrist full control.....even by that it teaches satans power is bound by the Holy Ghost....


----------



## pigpen1 (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Let's do go there...
> 
> Flood-- Noah, being found a just man, and family removed then the earth destroyed.
> 
> ...



 You don't even make a good premill argument, premills don't teach these vrs as second coming, but teach it as rapture...which contradicts these scriptures also because you premills teach of people having another chance to be saved after the "rapture", but show me anyone that came out of the flood other than the family of Noah or anyone that came out of Sodom other than Lot and his Family..no one else had another chance and Christ said it would be like those events, but you have many others that will be saved after that day....


----------



## Ronnie T (Mar 21, 2009)

Christ came into His kingdom when He ascended back into heaven and His church was instituted in Acts 2.
Christ's kingdom at this time resides in the hearts of His disciples.
Some day, Christ will come back to get His church, the living and dead, and carry them to the new heaven to be with its Savior and Heavenly Father.


----------



## pigpen1 (Mar 21, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Christ came into His kingdom when He ascended back into heaven and His church was instituted in Acts 2.
> Christ's kingdom at this time resides in the hearts of His disciples.
> Some day, Christ will come back to get His church, the living and dead, and carry them to the new heaven to be with its Savior and Heavenly Father.



 I think that is why He said, I go away to prepare a place for you....if that ain't the case then why didn't He say I will be back to live here with you...


----------



## Banjo (Mar 21, 2009)

> Let's do go there...
> 
> Flood-- Noah, being found a just man, and family removed then the earth destroyed.



Who was totally removed from the earth?  The wicked.

Same with Sodom and Gomorrah.....The wicked were totally eradicated and the righteous remained to live out their lives on the earth.

We are talking about total removal from the earth....Drowning in the flood or being burned up is total removal....Just as it will be at the final judgment.  The goats will be separated from the sheep and will be cast forever in the lake of fire.


----------



## crackerdave (Mar 21, 2009)

Mmmm.... barbecued goat!


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## ToLog (Mar 21, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I think that is why He said, I go away to prepare a place for you....if that ain't the case then why didn't He say I will be back to live here with you...




Not to get the thread off-tract, but Jesus, being God, isn't'/wasn't bound by the "Time" constraint.

Therefore, he might have been speaking of a time in the future, where he traveled, to do the preparing.. 

taking the Earth out of play would surely be an expensive undertaking.  but, maybe there's 1000's of new Earths being created, and it doesn't cost God much to create them?   just a little food for thought.


----------



## crackerdave (Mar 21, 2009)

roothog said:


> Not to get the thread off-tract, but Jesus, being God, isn't'/wasn't bound by the "Time" constraint.
> 
> Therefore, he might have been speaking of a time in the future, where he traveled, to do the preparing..
> 
> taking the Earth out of play would surely be an expensive undertaking.  but, maybe there's 1000's of new Earths being created, and it doesn't cost God much to create them?   just a little food for thought.



I think maybe God's pockets are pretty deep - not meaning to sound irreverent.


----------



## ToLog (Mar 21, 2009)

rangerdave said:


> I think maybe God's pockets are pretty deep - not meaning to sound irreverent.



you and i agree totally on this one.


----------



## reformedpastor (Mar 21, 2009)

> farmasis said:
> 
> 
> > Let's do go there...
> ...



Still believe this???

Stop listening to John MacArthur and others like him on the last days and you'll do fine. 

The bible is really clear.


----------



## Israel (Mar 21, 2009)

The righteous preserved, the wicked removed...so shall it be in the coming of the Son of man.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 21, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I agree, I was hoping you were not leaning toward Farmasis's doctrine...lol



If only you knew him you would know how  that was...


----------



## reformedpastor (Mar 21, 2009)

> farmasis said:
> 
> 
> > His kingdom is here now because the kingdom of God is in the hearts of believers. Not the same as his earthly reign that is to come.
> ...



Let scripture speak to this.

Matthew 16:18  18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- shall not prevail against it. 


Luke 11:20-22   20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.  21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:  22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils. 

Is the gospel spoiling satan's kingdom? 

Now for your favorite one. 

Revelation 20:1-3  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.  2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,  3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 

I see this in light of the previous passage. Satan is bound now. He is no longer able to deceive the nations concerning the gospel, Jesus sent His disciples to go a preach, teach and baptize the nations because He has all authority and has bound the great dragon.


Oh, here is one of my favorite passages.

Ephesians 1:19-23   19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,  20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,  21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:  22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,  23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. 


Notice the verb tenses.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 21, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> Still believe this???
> 
> Stop listening to John MacArthur and others like him on the last days and you'll do fine.
> 
> The bible is really clear.



Amen. 

Got to say if you read it from beginning to end (that means starting with Gen and ending with Rev rather than the other way around) you end up with a more balanced view. 

Cause the dispensational stuff ain't working...


----------



## pigpen1 (Mar 21, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> If only you knew him you would know how  that was...



 I know he and I disagree on some aspects of eschatology, but we line up way closer than me and Farmasis.


----------



## reformedpastor (Mar 21, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Amen.
> 
> Got to say if you read it from beginning to end (that means starting with Gen and ending with Rev rather than the other way around) you end up with a more balanced view.
> 
> Cause the dispensational stuff ain't working...



Boy, did I learn that the embarrassing way. Praise God for His word.


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 21, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I know he and I disagree on some aspects of eschatology, but we line up way closer than me and Farmasis.



Yeah. Trust me you do!!!

He doesn't believe in Aliens either...


----------



## pigpen1 (Mar 21, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> He doesn't believe in Aliens either...




 See I told you we didn't agree on everything.. I saw Elvis in a UFO...


----------



## reformedpastor (Mar 21, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> See I told you we didn't agree on everything.. I saw Elvis in a UFO...




Watch it, I grew up on Elvis. TCB.


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 21, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> Watch it, I grew up on Elvis. TCB.



Hey he's named after me...


----------



## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I will let the Book answer that.....Matt 12:27-29
> 
> 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils , by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
> 
> ...


 
Pigpen, Is Satan bound right now?


----------



## reformedpastor (Mar 21, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Hey he's named after me...



You mean you are named after him.


----------



## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> You don't even make a good premill argument, premills don't teach these vrs as second coming, but teach it as rapture...which contradicts these scriptures also because you premills teach of people having another chance to be saved after the "rapture", but show me anyone that came out of the flood other than the family of Noah or anyone that came out of Sodom other than Lot and his Family..no one else had another chance and Christ said it would be like those events, but you have many others that will be saved after that day....


 
No pigpen, you do not understand.
We know these are referring to the second coming.


----------



## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Who was totally removed from the earth? The wicked.
> 
> Same with Sodom and Gomorrah.....The wicked were totally eradicated and the righteous remained to live out their lives on the earth.
> 
> We are talking about total removal from the earth....Drowning in the flood or being burned up is total removal....Just as it will be at the final judgment. The goats will be separated from the sheep and will be cast forever in the lake of fire.


 
When God destroyed in all these situations, the righteous was removed first, not the other way. So will be with the second coming.


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 21, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> You mean you are named after him.



Naw I was famous before I was born...



Farmasis- Sorry man premil just makes biblically no sense and too much stuff has to be hyperbole and then adjusted... it's also a defeatist attitude. If this had been the predominant view 300 years ago we would all still be huddle in stone houses in Europe.


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## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> Ok, but this is embarrassing. The text you just posted says the wicked were taken away! Did you read it? What you are saying is if you are in a boat you are not on the earth???


 
Embarrasing if I were a pastor and could not discern this, maybe.



> Your prejudice shines through clearly on this one.


 
No, scripture is clear.



<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


> Just like the previous one all the text is telling us is that when Jesus comes again folks will be doing what comes natural. Every day stuff nothing special. He comes when you least expect Him. Nothing hard about this is you let it say what it says.



Yes, when he comes again, with his saints (the church) AFTER the rapture and after he removed the righteous from his destruction, just as he promised.


<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


> Still believe this???
> 
> Stop listening to John MacArthur and others like him on the last days and you'll do fine.


 
Most definately, but it isn't John MacArthur that I am listening to. It is John of Patmos, Paul and the recoreded teachings of Christ.


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## ToLog (Mar 21, 2009)

maybe the only way we can agree is that God does things differently, at different times, depending upon conditions?

yes, the good have been evacuated before the slaughter began. 

but, that's just part of it, seems like?  Noah and family were left, and the evil were taken. it depends.....

reminds me of a story. God was walking down the road, and there were workers in the fields on the left, and there were workers in the fields on the right.  

so, he painted the left side of his hat black, and he painted the right side of his hat white.  when he walked down the road waving, both groups saw him and waved brightly.  

later, at lunch, they all talked about seeing God wearing a hat.  some said they liked his black hat, some liked his white hat.  then, the arguments began. 

white hat, or black hat?  fisticuffs, again. 

and of course, it was both, truth be known.


----------



## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Farmasis- Sorry man premil just makes biblically no sense and too much stuff has to be hyperbole and then adjusted... it's also a defeatist attitude. If this had been the predominant view 300 years ago we would all still be huddle in stone houses in Europe.


 
You can say it doesn't as much as you want, but it does.

Defeatist? Where do you get that?

Here you go sounding like a Catholic again, holding on to tradition, as long as it starts when you think you had a majority view.

I'll stick with scripture, you take the majority view.


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## reformedpastor (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Embarrasing if I were a pastor and could not discern this, maybe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





It's like I have said before on here in other threads. The problem with most Christians isn't believing the bible, but, believing it correctly. Being able to properly interpret scripture with scripture. Herein is the problem. 

Take care, farmasis


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## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> It's like I have said before on here in other threads. The problem with most Christians isn't believing the bible, but, believing it correctly. Here in lies the problem.
> 
> Take care, farmasis


 
I totally agree!

Ponder on where Noah and Lot was when tribulation came to the unrighteous.


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## pigpen1 (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Pigpen, Is Satan bound right now?



 I have already answered that, you need to go back and finish reading that post...


----------



## reformedpastor (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I totally agree!
> 
> Ponder on where Noah and Lot was when tribulation came to the unrighteous.



On earth?


----------



## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I have already answered that, you need to go back and finish reading that post...


 

In what ways is Satan limited now than before?

You might want to see Job.


----------



## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> On earth?


 
Away from the destruction.


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> You can say it doesn't as much as you want, but it does.
> 
> Defeatist? Where do you get that?
> 
> ...



You need to be real careful with who you call a Catholic. I do not find it as offensive as you mean it. BUT MY VIEWS ARE IN NOW WAY CATHOLIC!

Post Millenialism is a biblical and right world view. One that produces fruit for he future not fruit bats.

Now I would STRONGLY suggest you take a deep breath and stop the MacArthur and Hagee stuff and seek out what the bible really says and what the impacts of it are. Cause you can learn alot about whether it is biblical by the fruit it produces. Good fruit means it is from God. 

A good look at history also will show you who and what came up with this view. And no you are not correctly interpreting the bible. You are twisting it. And in fact go look closely at what MacArthur and Hagee believe. Zola Levitt and others.


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## reformedpastor (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Away from the destruction.



Don't ya think Noah was in the middle of it?


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## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> Don't ya think Noah was in the middle of it?


 

No, above it.


----------



## pigpen1 (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I totally agree!
> 
> Ponder on where Noah and Lot was when tribulation came to the unrighteous.



You don't have to ponder on where John was..Rev 1:9

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV


----------



## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> You need to be real careful with who you call a Catholic. I do not find it as offensive as you mean it. BUT MY VIEWS ARE IN NOW WAY CATHOLIC!
> 
> Post Millenialism is a biblical and right world view. One that produces fruit for he future not fruit bats.
> 
> ...


 
I said you cling to 'tradition' like a Catholic. (removed the immature part)


----------



## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> You don't have to ponder on where John was..Rev 1:9
> 
> 9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
> KJV


 

There has always been tribulation...but this one will be different

<SUP>21</SUP> For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matt 24:21)


----------



## ToLog (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> There has always been tribulation...but this one will be different
> 
> <SUP>21</SUP> For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matt 24:21)




this is exceedingly interesting. so, if a foreign "power" sent up a cannister filled with bird-flu virus in a missle or rocket, and exploded it over an emerging cold-front, pouring down from Canada and the Arctic Circle, this would potentially be the beginning of tribulation, aka as the great die-off??


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 21, 2009)

roothog said:


> this is exceedingly interesting. so, if a foreign "power" sent up a cannister filled with bird-flu virus in a missle or rocket, and exploded it over an emerging cold-front, pouring down from Canada and the Arctic Circle, this would potentially be the beginning of tribulation, aka as the great die-off??



IF you have that view of scripture...

Course that would also mean Art Bell is a prophet.


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I said you cling to 'tradition' like a Catholic. (removed the immature part)



Nope. I cling to right ideas and am not swept up in the "emotion" of new age stuff.


----------



## ToLog (Mar 21, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> IF you have that view of scripture...
> 
> Course that would also mean Art Bell is a prophet.




lot's of prophets are probably way overweighted in terms of their importance.  i mean, if noone is going to change their ways, in view of what the prophets say, then the prophets need to get wage-earning jobs and get out of the sooth-saying business.

but, if prophets have something to say, are correct, and then folks change their ways based upon the "new" information, they're worth every penny they're being paid.


----------



## pigpen1 (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> In what ways is Satan limited now than before?
> 
> You might want to see Job.



 God has always had control of Satan. Satan was allowed to deceive the nations, think about it, Before Christ Only Israel Had favor with God, But after Christ he commissioned that the Gospel be carried to all nations.

  Did Christ take the Keys of death and He11 from him???? yes

  Did Christ cast out devils by the Spirit of God??? Yes

  Did man kind receive atonement for sin through Christ??? yes

 Did man kind have the indwelling of the Spirit before Christ in the manner we have after Christ??? No, thus we have power over Satan [get the behind me satan, in the name of Jesus] could Job do that?

When Christ was tempted in the wilderness by Satan, was not Christ victorious??? Yes

 And you still think Satan has the same power as before Christ.....

 The Nations were decived before Christ, but with the Gospel all nations now have the Truth and access to the saving Grace.


----------



## pigpen1 (Mar 21, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Now I would STRONGLY suggest you take a deep breath and stop the MacArthur and Hagee stuff and seek out what the bible really says



 What about a scolfield bible, we can find it in there..


----------



## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> God has always had control of Satan. Satan was allowed to deceive the nations, think about it, Before Christ Only Israel Had favor with God, But after Christ he commissioned that the Gospel be carried to all nations.
> 
> Did Christ take the Keys of death and He11 from him???? yes
> 
> ...


 
I cannot believe what I am reading.

You admit God had control of Satan, then say Jesus took control over Satan. Are they not one in the same?

You think Satan could have had control over Jesus.

You think Satan is not decieving nations? Wow. Millions of Jews burned in an oven, for fun?


----------



## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Nope. I cling to right ideas and am not swept up in the "emotion" of new age stuff.


 
The same things Catholics said in the 1500's, I bet.

Like I said, I'll stick with the book and not having to remove parts of it to fit my doctrine.


----------



## pigpen1 (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I cannot believe what I am reading.



 You seem to have that problem alot, like in these verses..Matt 12:25-29

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils , by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
KJV


----------



## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

If the tribulation has already happened then....


<SUP>29</SUP> “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-23982 value="30">30</SUP> Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-23983 value="31">31</SUP> And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt 24)

How did we miss Jesus's return? Isn't the sun still bright, doesn't the moon still have light? We also missed the first resurrection.


----------



## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> You seem to have that problem alot, like in these verses..Matt 12:25-29
> 
> 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
> 
> ...


 
No, I am reading that just fine.

Jesus is expalining to them that he is the kingdom of God that has come and that he is not evil, because how can evil cast out evil.

It is NOT saying that Satan is powerless.


----------



## pigpen1 (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> No, I am reading that just fine.
> 
> Jesus is expalining to them that he is the kingdom of God that has come and that he is not evil, because how can evil cast out evil.
> 
> It is NOT saying that Satan is powerless.



What does vrs 29 say?


----------



## dawg2 (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> The same things Catholics said in the 1500's, I bet.
> 
> Like I said, I'll stick with the book and not having to remove parts of it to fit my doctrine.



What was removed?


----------



## ToLog (Mar 21, 2009)

is it somewhat probable that even Jesus doesn't know when the end will be, because God Himself hasn't decided yet?

God is taking into account changes, advancements, and shifts in understanding.

if all fails, he'll signal the end, and his Troopers (Christians) will pull-out. he'll swoop down and grab them before they are a lost cause.

but, if people change their ways, and God's Advancement moves forward, then they won't have to be "saved" from destruction...

so, Jesus doesn't know, because God hasn't made up his mind yet, because we Humans are changing.....

maybe there's still time??


----------



## pigpen1 (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> No, I am reading that just fine.
> 
> Jesus is expalining to them that he is the kingdom of God that has come and that he is not evil, because how can evil cast out evil.
> 
> It is NOT saying that Satan is powerless.



 I like how you change Satans name to a broad meaning of evil.

 Christ was talking about Himself coming into Satans house/kingdom and spoiling his goods...


----------



## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> What was removed?


Some like removing parts of the Bible to fit their doctrines here.


----------



## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> What does vrs 29 say?


 
That Christ has the power over Satan to cast out his demons.


----------



## dawg2 (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Some like removing parts of the Bible to fit their doctrines here.



Oh, I thought you were saying Catholics removed books from the Bible.


----------



## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> Oh, I thought you were saying Catholics removed books from the Bible.


 

No, ya'll just add.....(That was meant as a joke)


----------



## celticfisherman (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> The same things Catholics said in the 1500's, I bet.
> 
> Like I said, I'll stick with the book and not having to remove parts of it to fit my doctrine.



BUT YOU ARE! 

And why is it that almost all of you are anti-catholic!

It's disgusting. And shows true ignorance on what happened in the past and what is truly in the scriptures. 

But you can go ahead and deceive who you will foolishly listen to you. Everything from the flood being caused to keep the bloodline of Christ clean to 666 being tattoed on our arms by Luther, Pope Pious, and John Paul, and now maybe Obama... 

You see the problem is that since the 1800's dispensationalists have been predicting the end of the world. And guess what we are still here. 

You promote fear and distrust. You promote the separate salvation plan for the Jews. Jews rebuilding the temple and sacrificing to God again even though they believe in Christ.

What part of "I am the way the truth and the light no man comes to the Father but thru Me" did you think he was kidding about? Christ is the sacrifice. Jew and Gentile being separate in the faith but still being saved separately?

No. You do not have a biblical view. I am sorry you hold it. I view it as a cancer in the church today. I believe it has caused the retreat of the Church from society.


----------



## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> BUT YOU ARE!
> 
> And why is it that almost all of you are anti-catholic!
> 
> ...


 

Ok celticfisherman, I am leaving you to your tradition. I am sticking to the Bible.


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## pigpen1 (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> That Christ has the power over Satan to cast out his demons.



Matt 12:25-29

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils , by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
KJV

He is talking about two kingdoms, the first is Satans and the second is Gods. He is refering to himself coming into satans house[the world] and spoling his control.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Ok celticfisherman, I am leaving you to your tradition. I am sticking to the Bible.



Only if you wrote your own. 

See the funny thing is you accuse us of holding to tradition and some flakey thing. Like biblical tradition is a bad thing. Yet you have to invent ideas and things that are not mentioned in the bible to make yours work out. Where would you like to start? MacArthur? Hagee? Levitt?

Go ahead. But let me say this. It is a heresy and it is the root cause of our current political and Church situation. You hold to liberal theology.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 21, 2009)

For what it's worth I have to agree with Celti on this, "No. You do not have a biblical view. I am sorry you hold it. I view it as a cancer in the church today. I believe it has caused the retreat of the Church from society."

Also, I do not get to this agreement with Celti because it is part of my denomination's doctrine, as some have said, I don't tow lines for nobody..., I don't fly banners for nobody, I head parades for nobody, simply I came to it because it is how I read it to the best of my ability in faith, even and especially independent of my denomination and it's doctrines...

But hey I might be wrong.


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## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I like how you change Satans name to a broad meaning of evil.
> 
> Christ was talking about Himself coming into Satans house/kingdom and spoiling his goods...


 
We are not arguing that Satan is limited by God, that he can bind him when he wills, can give us power over him, etc.

We are arguing that this binding from Rev has not occured yet, because it will not until the millenium.

 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-31034 value="1">1</SUP> Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-31035 value="2">2</SUP> He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is _the_ Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-31036 value="3">3</SUP> and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.  (Rev 20)

Now, explain how Satan escaped that in these verses which all occured after Jesus died....

 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-27057 value="3">3</SUP> But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back _part_ of the price of the land for yourself? (Acts 5)

<SUP>5</SUP> Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. (1 Cor 7)

<SUP>12</SUP> But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28997 value="13">13</SUP> For such _are_ false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28998 value="14">14</SUP> And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. (2 Cor 11)

<SUP>18</SUP> Therefore we wanted to come to you—even I, Paul, time and again—but Satan hindered us. (1 Thes 2)

.....more scriptures ready if you need more.


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## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Only if you wrote your own.
> 
> See the funny thing is you accuse us of holding to tradition and some flakey thing. Like biblical tradition is a bad thing. Yet you have to invent ideas and things that are not mentioned in the bible to make yours work out. Where would you like to start? MacArthur? Hagee? Levitt?
> 
> Go ahead. But let me say this. It is a heresy and it is the root cause of our current political and Church situation. You hold to liberal theology.


 
You like to throw out people you think others follow, but I use scripture and you have no answer. That is what it was designed to do.


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## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

gordon 2 said:


> For what it's worth I have to agree with Celti on this, "No. You do not have a biblical view. I am sorry you hold it. I view it as a cancer in the church today. I believe it has caused the retreat of the Church from society."
> 
> Also, I do not get to this agreement with Celti because it is part of my denomination's doctrine, as some have said, I don't tow lines for nobody..., I don't fly banners for nobody, I head parades for nobody, simply I came to it because it is how I read it to the best of my ability in faith, even and especially independent of my denomination and it's doctrines...
> 
> But hey I might be wrong.


 
All I got is 'thus sayeth the Lord'. I don't need anyone on my side.


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## pigpen1 (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> No, I am reading that just fine.
> 
> Jesus is expalining to them that he is the kingdom of God that has come and that he is not evil, because how can evil cast out evil.
> 
> It is NOT saying that Satan is powerless.



I thought you were the literial kind of guy?????????

 I'll be back tommorow if the "rapture" doesn't come tonight, if it does you just carry on without me...


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## Ronnie T (Mar 21, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I thought you were the literial kind of guy?????????
> 
> I'll be back tommorow if the "rapture" doesn't come tonight, if it does you just carry on without me...




"You carry on without me".... That's really good.


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## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

Is this bound?

<SUP>8</SUP> Be sober, be vigilant; because<SUP class=footnote value='[c]'>[c]</SUP> your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. (1 Peter 5)


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## celticfisherman (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> You like to throw out people you think others follow, but I use scripture and you have no answer. That is what it was designed to do.



Sorry. We have all answered your questions and provided scripture. Pigpen more than anyone else. You beat this drum everywhere you go. That's the problem here. You also need to look around at who holds the views you do and who has in the past... But we would hate to consider the facts and responsibility of your interpretation.

And BTW--- You don't have to throw scripture around to make your point. Especially when you twist it. And you never seem to have an answer to the worldview consequences...

So good night.


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## farmasis (Mar 21, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Sorry. We have all answered your questions and provided scripture. Pigpen more than anyone else. You beat this drum everywhere you go. That's the problem here.
> 
> And BTW--- You don't have to throw scripture around to make your point. Especially when you twist it. And you never seem to have an answer to the worldview consequences...
> 
> So good night.


 
Yes, that is probably the best answer you can give since you have answered no question nor provided any scripture.

I will continue to provide scripture to back up my theology. I know a rare concept here.

I do beat the drum everywhere I go when I see scripture being thrown out to meet the doctrines of man. It is a fault of mine.

Good night.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 21, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Yes, that is probably the best answer you can give since you have answered no question nor provided any scripture.
> 
> I do beat the drum everywhere I go when I see scripture being thrown out to meet the doctrines of man. It is a fault of mine.



Heretics often claim that.

Go review your threads. You will find a good bit of scripture from me. You may not like it or agree with it.

But I don't expect anything more from a person who believes in the rapture (where is that by the way can you give me those bits and pieces again???) and aliens meddling in creation.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 21, 2009)

This is a very tough subject and the arguments usually end in bloodshed.  That's why I've stayed out of the center of it.
In the end, everyone might be wrong.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 21, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> This is a very tough subject and the arguments usually end in bloodshed.  That's why I've stayed out of the center of it.
> In the end, everyone might be wrong.



I'm sorry. I think varying from the accepted to some new age "idea" on biblical interpretation is wrong. We can know what is right and wrong. Again look at the fruit it has born.


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## farmasis (Mar 22, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Heretics often claim that.


 
You should know, you quote enough of them.



> Go review your threads. You will find a good bit of scripture from me. You may not like it or agree with it.


 
I will do that...

Let's see-- nothing in your last 25 posts....nor last 50....even 75...

well what do you know-- nothing in your last 100 posts. No need to go further.


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## farmasis (Mar 22, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> I'm sorry. I think varying from the accepted to some new age "idea" on biblical interpretation is wrong. We can know what is right and wrong. Again look at the fruit it has born.


 
I have tried to educate you. Premillenialism has been offered up since the mid second century. Albeit, not dispensationalism.

Really doesn't matter to me.


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## dawg2 (Mar 22, 2009)

farmasis said:


> No, ya'll just add.....(That was meant as a joke)



We "add"  <------Also as a joke


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## Israel (Mar 22, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> This is a very tough subject and the arguments usually end in bloodshed.  That's why I've stayed out of the center of it.
> In the end, everyone might be wrong.




In the end, as in the beginning, anyone trying to be right...is wrong.
It's such a simple thing to see, yet such a hard thing to apprehend.
It puts the cross right where it needs to be, planted squarely in the heart of the thing that wants to see itself as right, and therefore must find others as wrong.
"The _woman you_ gave me..." Adam pleaded.
3 people in a situation, God, the woman and Adam, which were the only two in which Adam could see fault?
It matters not if you can quote the whole of the bible and commmentaries, every saint from Avraham to Zechariah,
without shedding the stink of self justification, none of it testifies of Jesus.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Mar 22, 2009)

Israel said:


> It matters not if you can quote the whole of the bible and commmentaries, every saint from Avraham to Zechariah,
> without shedding the stink of self justification, none of it testifies of Jesus.


 

This is the best response I have seen in the entire Spiritual Debate Forum since I first joined in Oct. 06'


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## gordon 2 (Mar 22, 2009)

Israel said:


> In the end, as in the beginning, anyone trying to be right...is wrong.
> It's such a simple thing to see, yet such a hard thing to apprehend.
> It puts the cross right where it needs to be, planted squarely in the heart of the thing that wants to see itself as right, and therefore must find others as wrong.
> "The _woman you_ gave me..." Adam pleaded.
> ...




Really?  So when Jesus said to the women at the well that what she knew was squat and to sin no more...he was 
"wrong" for doing right?

And when John the Baptish called the ministers who came to  his outdoor church snakes he was "wrong" for doing right?

What is wrong for pointing out one's thoughs on cause and effect? If it has for purpose truth come what may? 

And sometimes what is stink for one at one place is just sweat to another at an other place. Some people are just born competitive, and granted some are sick. All are tax collectors, they make good diciples....I think? Perhaps? maybe? No?


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## gordon 2 (Mar 22, 2009)

scooter1 said:


> This is the best response I have seen in the entire Spiritual Debate Forum since I first joined in Oct. 06'



Isreal really needed that positive feedback, in other words he's got your vote for the Spiritual Forum's Politser prize. I agree with you, Isreal post is good, but banjo had one a while back on the end times and the destruction of the temple, that was Noble prize quality...

Of course you may not agree that the Scandinavian prize is head and heel above the american prize. 

Peace ....


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## Israel (Mar 22, 2009)

gordon 2 said:


> Really?  So when Jesus said to the women at the well that what she knew was squat and to sin no more...he was
> "wrong" for doing right?
> 
> And when John the Baptish called the ministers who came to  his outdoor church snakes he was "wrong" for doing right?
> ...



Gordon, if I told you "born" competitors are not born anew competitors, would I be wasting my breath?
If I told you if Jesus was interested in _trying_ to show "How right he was" we would not be discussing this. For in the brightness of that unbridled revelation of glory not even a cinder of creation would have remained?

That Jesus was willing to appear all wrong (cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree") so that we who were all wrong might partake of his righteousness is part of the foolishness of God that far outstrips man's wisdom.


2 Corinthians 13: 4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

Better to follow the one who said (and became for our sakes) the one who claimed nothing for himself.

John 5: 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.


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## farmasis (Mar 22, 2009)

Israel said:


> In the end, as in the beginning, anyone trying to be right...is wrong.
> It's such a simple thing to see, yet such a hard thing to apprehend.
> It puts the cross right where it needs to be, planted squarely in the heart of the thing that wants to see itself as right, and therefore must find others as wrong.
> "The _woman you_ gave me..." Adam pleaded.
> ...


 
You are right Israel. It is time for me to shake the dust off of my feet on this thread.
I have said often, when I get perfect knowledge, I am sure that I will be amazed at all that I thought I had correct and was wrong about. However, all I can do know is study scripture, and not the teachings of men, and not let the exceptions that we find in them become the rule.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 22, 2009)

Israel said:


> Gordon, if I told you "born" competitors are not born anew competitors, would I be wasting my breath?
> If I told you if Jesus was interested in _trying_ to show "How right he was" we would not be discussing this. For in the brightness of that unbridled revelation of glory not even a cinder of creation would have remained?
> 
> That Jesus was willing to appear all wrong (cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree") so that we who were all wrong might partake of his righteousness is part of the foolishness of God that far outstrips man's wisdom.
> ...




I get you now. Thanks.... So what you are saying is that some of the saints on here are out for themselves. Hum?


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## gordon 2 (Mar 22, 2009)

farmasis said:


> You are right Israel. It is time for me to shake the dust off of my feet on this thread.
> I have said often, when I get perfect knowledge, I am sure that I will be amazed at all that I thought I had correct and was wrong about. However, all I can do know is study scripture, and not the teachings of men, and not let the exceptions that we find in them become the rule.



If your ancestors had followed that you'd still be catholic. Peace bros.


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## Israel (Mar 22, 2009)

gordon 2 said:


> If your ancestors had followed that you'd still be catholic. Peace bros.



Gordon...do you really believe that? Or are you being facetious?
I see the little grinny things and am tending to think you are being lighthearted.
I have seen and heard enough of Farmasis to believe he doesn't base his faith on carnal ancestry, and would, I believe, say that when one comes to the Lord it can only be through a personal, not generational, revelation of the Lord Jesus. 
But I cannot speak for him.
But speaking for myself, where would that leave one whose ancestors were all pagans? Would they then owe some measure of devotion to their beliefs?

As to the "tradition" into which I myself was born by first birth I guess you'd then be surprised.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 22, 2009)

Israel said:


> Gordon...do you really believe that? Or are you being facetious?
> I see the little grinny things and am tending to think you are being lighthearted.
> I have seen and heard enough of Farmasis to believe he doesn't base his faith on carnal ancestry, and would, I believe, say that when one comes to the Lord it can only be through a personal, not generational, revelation of the Lord Jesus.
> But I cannot speak for him.
> ...




Motorcycle gang?

I am going to play nice....but I think that Farmasis has a war dog for RC, which I understand being one. But as you say, I might be wrong.....


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## Israel (Mar 22, 2009)

Gotcha, the Pagans....vrooom vrooom
Nah, I meant just ordinary run of the mill tree worshipping, moon loving polytheistic pagans.

Anyway, I been slapped by the bishop, been schooled in the mysteries of Rome...then Jesus showed up.
And ever since, all before him and outside of him has begun to take its proper place. 
As nothing.
So, what do I owe my ancestors?


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## gordon 2 (Mar 22, 2009)

Israel said:


> Gotcha, the Pagans....vrooom vrooom
> Nah, I meant just ordinary run of the mill tree worshipping, moon loving polytheistic pagans.
> 
> Anyway, I been slapped by the bishop, been schooled in the mysteries of Rome...then Jesus showed up.
> ...



Room and board. So your a Jesuit. Cool.


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## Lowjack (Mar 22, 2009)

Israel said:


> Gotcha, the Pagans....vrooom vrooom
> Nah, I meant just ordinary run of the mill tree worshipping, moon loving polytheistic pagans.
> 
> Anyway, I been slapped by the bishop, been schooled in the mysteries of Rome...then Jesus showed up.
> ...



I owed mine a lot, The Covenants and the Oracles and the messiah, how do you know if one of yours wasn't one of mine also ?, LOL


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## Israel (Mar 22, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> I owed mine a lot, The Covenants and the Oracles and the messiah, how do you know if one of yours wasn't one of mine also ?, LOL



Oh, make no mistake, by faith I know of "father" Abraham and am glad to count him as a forbear and brother.
I hope he is as glad to have me as one promised. But then, in Messiah, gladness is the norm.


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## dawg2 (Mar 22, 2009)

Israel said:


> Gotcha, the Pagans....vrooom vrooom
> Nah, I meant just ordinary run of the mill tree worshipping, moon loving polytheistic pagans.
> 
> Anyway, I been slapped by the bishop, been schooled in the mysteries of Rome...then Jesus showed up.
> ...



Jesus was always there for me


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## gordon 2 (Mar 22, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> Jesus was always there for me



You have a laughing face, but you are serious also right. I mean I could claim this as well. The Jesus that I know now is the Jesus my church always said he was and being to the church, in her He was with me.

Does not this describe our loving brother Isreal? The branch not falling far from the tree.

****Ignatian spirituality
Like all Catholic spirituality, the spirituality practiced by the Jesuits, called Ignatian spirituality, is based on the Catholic faith and the gospels. Aside from the "Constitutions," "The Letters," and "Autobiography," Ignatian spirituality draws most specially from St. Ignatius' "Spiritual Exercises," whose purpose is "to conquer oneself and to regulate one's life in such a way that no decision is made under the influence of any inordinate attachment." In other words, the Exercises are intended, in Ignatius' view, to give the exercitant (the person undertaking them) a greater degree of freedom from his or her own likes, dislikes, comforts, wants, needs, drives, appetites and passions that they may choose based solely on what they discern God's will is for them.

In the words of former Jesuit Superior General, Peter Hans Kolvenbach, the Exercises try to "unite two apparently incompatible realities: exercises and spiritual." It invites to "unlimited generosity" in contemplating God, yet going down to the level of many details.[24]

Ignatian spirituality can be described as an active attentiveness united with a prompt responsiveness to God, who is ever active in people's lives. Though it includes many forms of prayer, discernment, and apostolic service, it is the interior dispositions of attentiveness and responsiveness that are ultimately crucial. The result is that Ignatian spirituality has a remarkable 'nowness,' both in its attentiveness to God and in its desire to respond to what God is asking of the person now.[25]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Jesus


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