# Carl Sagan Science compatibility w/Religion!



## Artfuldodger (Mar 7, 2013)

I used to like his science shows on tv and his demeanor. I've read that he was an Agnostic, saying such things as:
An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed.
My long-time view about Christianity is that it represents an amalgam of two seemingly immiscible parts, the religion of Jesus and the religion of Paul. Thomas Jefferson attempted to excise the Pauline parts of the New Testament. There wasn't much left when he was done, but it was an inspiring document.
Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual.

I don't have to find my spiritual fullfillment or teachings from a scientist. I don't have to find my entertainment from the same person i'm getting my preaching from.
I can separate religion, politics, and entertainment from various people.


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## bullethead (Mar 7, 2013)

People's individual beliefs are personal and unique to the individual.
It is hard to tell someone they are wrong for what it in their mind.
It is when robust claims are made, that under any other circumstances when placed under scrutiny are easily backed up with proof/evidence/facts, and those claims just simply cannot be backed up without having to imagine the evidence is where one side of the argument fails and falls apart.


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## TripleXBullies (Mar 8, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> ..... is surely spiritual.



It's what you believe spiritual to be. The word spiritual itself carries with it the same kinds of claims that you are saying can't be made. There is just as little proof for or against a spirit as any god. It's surely more deeply emotionally moving.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 8, 2013)

bullethead said:


> People's individual beliefs are personal and unique to the individual.
> It is hard to tell someone they are wrong for what it in their mind.
> It is when robust claims are made, that under any other circumstances when placed under scrutiny are easily backed up with proof/evidence/facts, and those claims just simply cannot be backed up without having to imagine the evidence is where one side of the argument fails and falls apart.



proof does not exist
evidence doesn't point one way or the other(it is just there)
facts are debateable


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 8, 2013)

ted_BSR said:


> proof does not exist
> evidence doesn't point one way or the other(it is just there)
> facts are debateable



I think that is what Carl was saying. I don't see his works as being "demon-haunted" nor do I see science that way either.
Some Christians do see science that way. What do they do about their kids in science class? I'm not even talking about "natural selection", i'm talking about rainbows. You can't pick and choose science issues or can you?

The Demon-Haunted World Quotes of Carl:

http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/252618-the-demon-haunted-world-science-as-a-candle-in-the-dark


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## mtnwoman (Mar 8, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think that is what Carl was saying. I don't see his works as being "demon-haunted" nor do I see science that way either.
> Some Christians do see science that way. What do they do about their kids in science class? I'm not even talking about "natural selection", i'm talking about rainbows. You can't pick and choose science issues or can you?



When I or my brothers and sister were in HS in science which was like 60's 70's...our parents didn't tell us not to believe in evolution...we were Christians and went to church and also believed in the story of Adam and Eve. I don't ever remember it being an issue, at least in my lifetime until recently (just my experience) I just assumed ok the scientists know what they are talking about and somehow it is all included/combined/mixed in with my religious beliefs. I knew scientists discovered things but never create something out of nothing. Just used creation to make or 'create' or discover what we know exists today.

I just didn't try to or worry about whether to seperate the two things. Not until someone started something about there is no god, but evolution is the ONLY way, did I even cop an attitude of why my belief was on such an ignorant level, that there could be a  god AND evolution could've taken place, that I thought well you can't prove that there is no god any more than I can prove evolution isn't the only way we got here. I accepted both, and still do.

Things have to be exactly correct for a rainbow, or for the tides or for a solstice, or for a snow, or an axis...I just don't believe if the earth was always the way it is now, wouldn't mankind have been then like we are now, 6 billion (or whatever) years ago? How did the first cell of life get here and from where. I could believe we came from another universe "planted" here on earth more than I can believe we just popped outta nowhere by things mixing themselves together that came from where?

Besides what difference does it make in the long run...any of us can be wrong, and what's it gonna change? Nothing we can do about anything anyway is there...except shatter someone's trip to heaven if perhaps they are wrong about God.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 8, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't have to find my spiritual fullfillment or teachings from a scientist. I don't have to find my entertainment from the same person i'm getting my preaching from.
> I can separate religion, politics, and entertainment from various people.



I can seperate it, too.
I don't have any more/less doubt about bigfoot than I do the shroud....know what I mean?
Both could be possible, I suppose. That's why scientists discover and develope/invent the things they do, they are open minded to 'everything is possible'.

In my experiences, I've seen a pink elephant or three....


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 9, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> When I or my brothers and sister were in HS in science which was like 60's 70's...our parents didn't tell us not to believe in evolution...we were Christians and went to church and also believed in the story of Adam and Eve. I don't ever remember it being an issue, at least in my lifetime until recently (just my experience) I just assumed ok the scientists know what they are talking about and somehow it is all included/combined/mixed in with my religious beliefs. I knew scientists discovered things but never create something out of nothing. Just used creation to make or 'create' or discover what we know exists today.
> 
> I just didn't try to or worry about whether to seperate the two things. Not until someone started something about there is no god, but evolution is the ONLY way, did I even cop an attitude of why my belief was on such an ignorant level, that there could be a  god AND evolution could've taken place, that I thought well you can't prove that there is no god any more than I can prove evolution isn't the only way we got here. I accepted both, and still do.



I went to school in the 60's & 70's too. I don't remember much mention of evolution either. Maybe it took a long time for the idea to travel to small towns. It took popular songs about 3 months to reach Douglas.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 9, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I went to school in the 60's & 70's too. I don't remember much mention of evolution either. Maybe it took a long time for the idea to travel to small towns. It took popular songs about 3 months to reach Douglas.



Well actually what I meant was we studied evolution and I didn't think anything negative of it. I didn't argue about it or say 'oh no, God created everything'. I assumed it fit in there somewhere. It was when people were dogging me out for my beliefs that I even got an attitude about it, spending their entire life trying to prove there is no god to people who believe there is. I don't go around doggin' out people for what they believe, but I will defend what I believe.


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