# Is the Bible Biblical?



## Artfuldodger (Nov 21, 2012)

Is the requirement to read the Bible Biblical? What does the Bible say about reading the Bible? Are there verses requiring us to read the Bible? 
Which book of scripture did Jesus read? He didn't read the Old Testament as you can't have an Old Testament without a New Testament. Jesus read the Tanakh. The Torah is part of the Tanakh. The Septuagint was a Greek translation of the Tanakh which came later. Jesus was pretty upset with the Scribes. 

The Christian Bible's Old Testament (it’s adaptation of Tanakh) reveals that in many places there are significant translation differences rendering the meanings of the passages quite different. Not only are the books rearranged so that the books are not in the order of Torah, Prophets and Writings, but Kings, Ezra and Nehemiah are divided. The Protestant Old Testament contains roughly the same books; the Vulgate has additional texts added to the canon that were originally written in Greek. The Greek Septuagint (meaning 70) was originally referring to the Torah portion only, and in fact, that is the only portion that was translated by 72 scribes whose translations matched. The rest of Tanakh was translated from the Hebrew to the Greek over the course of about 300 years and scholars cannot tell who or when exactly any of them were translated. Yet the common name of Septuagint is now generally applied to the whole Greek translation. By the beginning of the first century CE, there were many different versions of each text that appeared, some of them with less accurate Hebrew to Greek, and during this time, many other texts appeared being originally written IN Greek such as the books of the Maccabees. By the time of the beginnings of Christianity, some of these texts of Tanakh had become so changed through the Hellenization (introduction of Greek philosophic concepts through language) that they were no longer adherent to Torah precept. The Hebrew Bible canon had been more or less "closed" since the time of Ezra/ Nehemiah (around 423 BCE) but of course, Jewish scribes still penned what was going on in Jewish life in Judea and wrote and discussed how to apply Torah to their lives. It has been debated by many Jewish scholars that if the Books of Maccabees had originally been written in Hebrew they may have been more readily accepted by Jews as Jewish texts..but as a part of Talmud, since the Tanakh was already formed..not as a part of our Bible.
****The Greek Septuagint called the Old Testament is not a Jewish document, but rather a Christian one. The original Septuagint, created 2,200 years ago by 72 Jewish translators, was a Greek translation of the Five Books of Moses alone. It therefore did not contain prophetic Books of the Bible such as Isaiah. The Septuagint as we have it today, which includes the Prophets and Writings as well, is a product of the church, not the Jewish people. In fact, the Septuagint remains the official Old Testament of the Greek Orthodox Church, and the manuscripts that consist of our Septuagint today date to the third century C.E. The fact that additional books known as the Apocrypha, which are uniquely sacred to the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church, are found in the Septuagint should raise a red flag to those inquiring into the Jewishness of the Septuagint.
The fact that the original Septuagint translated by Jewish scribes more than 22 centuries ago was only of the Pentateuch and not of prophetic books of the Bible such as Isaiah is confirmed by countless sources including the ancient Letter of Aristeas, which is the earliest attestation to the existence of the Septuagint. The Talmud also states this explicitly in Tractate Megillah (9a), and Josephus as well affirms that the Septuagint was a translation only of the Law of Moses in his preface to Antiquities of the Jews. Moreover, Jerome, a church father and Bible translator who could hardly be construed as friendly to Judaism, affirms Josephus' statement regarding the authorship of the Septuagint in his preface to The Book of Hebrew Questions.


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## rjcruiser (Nov 21, 2012)

Nice cut n paste.  Mind posting the link?

As far as reading/studying scripture....Josh 1:8  

This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth.  You shall meditate on it day and night....so that you may be careful to do all that is written in it.  Then your way will be made prosperous and you will have success.


There are many other scriptures that command us to study the scripture....meditate on it...learn it.  Is it a requirement of salvation?      No....but it is a fruit of our desire to know the one we say we love and worship.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 21, 2012)

I don't even know what some of that means which is my point of this post. There is no Biblical requirement to read the Bible. I'm not doubting it's the Word of God and we must start somewhere to to study. I'm just saying we need to know more about what Jesus said and done in regards to scripture and his message. His message was so important it didn't need to be written down and dissected. We can still use the word of mouth to testify and spread the message. The Great Commission doesn't say one must use written words or illustrations. You can perform the Great Commission with spoken words, written words, pictures, film, mp3's, the internet, MUSIC(I like that one), and with a large speaker on top of your car. The best way is by example. You can spread the word at Churches, picnics, nightclubs, factories, hospitals, foreign nations, and on the earth, land & sea. 
We also need to know more about where the Bible came from. You can't just pick up a Bible and say it's the inerrant Word of God if you don't even know who interpreted it, who printed it, who approve the version, what influence did the government body have in writing it, etc. 
I believe the Word of God is important. I believe the story of Jesus is important. I don't see the emphasis placed on reading the Bible as preached, it's not Biblical. The emphasis should be on living a Christian life, not reading about it, doing it.

My analogy is sports. I've always liked sports but only participating in sports. Not watching sports or reading about sports or knowing all the statistics. To me that's not sports. It's interesting info but not living the life of a sportsman.
That's the way I view Christianity. The basic history of who beget who is definitely important but the important part of Christianity is living it. Don't just read about it and talk about it, do it. Go and help your neighbor, forgive your trespasser, give someone some trust.
I know i'm preaching and believe me i've got a lot of work to do on my own, but the Holy Spirit is telling me to tell ya"ll(he's Southern), to put your Bibles down and go outside and help others and go witness. The best way to be a Christian is by example.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 21, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Nice cut n paste.  Mind posting the link?
> 
> As far as reading/studying scripture....Josh 1:8
> 
> ...



What is the Book of the Law Joshua is referring too? I'm sure it's important to Christians and we should follow it today and tell the world about it. It wasn't the KJV of the Bible and it wasn't the Septuagint.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 21, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Nice cut n paste.  Mind posting the link?



I thought so too. Why do some people hate cut n paste?
The Holy Spirit lead me to this post. He knows the importance of living the live of a Christian and not just reading about it.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081206153710AAyvNI3


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## gemcgrew (Nov 21, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Nice cut n paste.  Mind posting the link?


Please, no more links.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 21, 2012)

AD, you've outdone yourself with this one.  I tip my hat to you.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 21, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> There are many other scriptures that command us to study the scripture....meditate on it...learn it.  Is it a requirement of salvation?      No....but it is a fruit of our desire to know the one we say we love and worship.



I'm not doubting these commands to study the scripture. Just what "the Scripture" is. I would like to see these other verses. We can know who Jesus is by living a Christian life.
The most important teaching of the WORD of Jesus who also happens to be the WORD is to love others, help others, & forgive others. To do so is to do this to God himself. That's the Word. The Word can be written, spoken, sung, prayed, shouted, whispered, and be done by example. As in ACTUALLY doing it. The Word is scripture. The word can be the Bible but it isn't limited by the written word. The WORD has no limits.
The Word(Jesus) also teaches us to be humble & meek.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 21, 2012)

I just feel very strongly about the Word of God and  I would like to quote a verse from the  Bible. It was written with some accountability shortly after Jesus departed. I Love it and treasure it's message. But the WORD is so much more, that written words can't even began to explain the WORD. I'll admit i'm feeling a little weird writing all this stuff.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. (WOW, I'm sorry,  I forgot I was Gentile.)

Christianity differs from other religions in the fact that it revolves around a living personal Savior. This  Savior was also a great teacher. He mostly taught by word of mouth, miracles, and by doing stuff. He was the Greatest example. He did read scriptures. He did quote scriptures. This post was never intended to bash the importance of scriptures. But Jesus wasn't limited by Scriptures, Laws, or Rules. His life was his teaching. That was the Word.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 22, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Please, no more links.


 Hey, check out this Link about the WORD:
http://www.topverses.com/?find=word

Here is a link about spreading the WORD:
http://www.topbibleverses.com/bible-verses-about-spreading-the-word

The two links are to verses from the Bible. How do you view the internet as a tool of God? Is it good or bad? 
Considering the amount of not yet witnessed to pre-elected soon to be Christians all over the world, I think it's better for spreading the WORD than a concrete block building. Most people today aren't going to leave the comfort of their warm home to go to a concrete building.
Amen and thank you God for providing the internet for yet another way of spreading your WORD. We will be able to reach millions of your elect with just the touch of a mouse.
We can provide non believers with the resources they need to choose you over Satan. Satan uses the internet too. He takes non-believers and believers to porn, gambling, bomb making, financial predator, and devil worshiping sites. I never got an answer as to why Satan would try to lure a OSAS believer away from God.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 22, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> We can provide non believers with the resources they need to choose you over Satan.


And we all know that better resources is all that the unbelievers lack. If they just had better choice making material to work with....

.... Or perhaps they are blind.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 22, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> And we all know that better resources is all that the unbelievers lack. If they just had better choice making material to work with....
> 
> .... Or perhaps they are blind.



I can tell from your post that this brother needs a lot more Scripture and Spirit and a lot less world and flesh".

Just kidding, your faith is unbelievable and I admire it. I don't believe the same as you but you've got those bible verses to back up your beliefs down pat. 
I think that is what Hummerpoo and others want to see in me. The ability to quote verses from memory instead of relying on the internet. The ability to say that my beliefs come from just reading the Bible, like you say that's where yours are from, instead of relying on the internet. How long does it take for someone to recall all those "Election" verses from memory? How did you ever find them all without any outside help from like minded believers?
What does your preacher preach about as to not influence you of this "election" belief so that you can form it on your own just from reading the Bible? Growing up in a Primitive Baptist Church(Church history) didn't have any influence on your beliefs? I admire you for being able to put aside all these outside sources and develop your beliefs solely own the Bible. When ya'll were  kids were you at least given a cheat sheet of verses to defend your Election beliefs? I'm still in awe of how one could become so eloquent in returning these verses. If it is truly something you did own your own quest with guidance from the Holy Spirit and no one else then I commend you for your diligence.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 22, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> ... the Holy Spirit is telling me to tell ya"ll(he's Southern), to put your Bibles down and go outside and help others and go witness. The best way to be a Christian is by example.



Reading and doing are not mutually exclusive.


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## rjcruiser (Nov 22, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> What is the Book of the Law Joshua is referring too? I'm sure it's important to Christians and we should follow it today and tell the world about it. It wasn't the KJV of the Bible and it wasn't the Septuagint.



Actually, it was God telling Joshua how to live.  The law He was specifically talking about was the law He gave to Moses...the words Moses had written down (aka the Torah).

That being said, I believe that God knew that the Bible we have today, all 66 books, would be in our hands and as God spoke to Joshua that day referring to the Torah, today, it applies to me as all 66 books of the Bible.



Artfuldodger said:


> I thought so too. Why do some people hate cut n paste?
> The Holy Spirit lead me to this post. He knows the importance of living the live of a Christian and not just reading about it.
> 
> http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081206153710AAyvNI3



I don't hate cut n paste...I do it myself.  I just like to see the link as it gives credibility (or lack thereof) to the post.  We've had cut n pastes from wacko websites on here before and it kinda makes the post worthless.  Does that make sense?



centerpin fan said:


> Reading and doing are not mutually exclusive.



Bingo.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 22, 2012)

I'll make a bold statement and then run put my helmet on. The bible is the biggest hindrance Christianity faces. Although I don't disregard it, I have spent years studying it. More than 10 preachers combined, it is responsible for all the division. One group grabs hold of a few verses while denying others, and those denied are held tight by another group while they in turn deny those held by the other group. Hundreds of beliefs are derived by the same book. No way that this was Gods word or purpose. The bible has replaced the Spirit in peoples lives. People focus on what does the bible say, when we are to live by the Spirit he gave us.


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## Israel (Nov 22, 2012)

Most every bit of what I've read thinking that reading with comprehension=spiritual understanding...was not wasted...just a long time in the steepin'.
25 years ago, I would have asked you who was the most wicked King in Israel? 
You'd have said "Manasseh". 
I'd have asked...who was his father and when did Manasseh take the throne?
You'd have said Hezekiah...and that he was 12 when he began to reign.
Doing simple math we would have discovered he was born 3 years after Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord that he not die; receiving 15 more years to live.
Wow! What a great lesson for a sermon!

But now, after those 25 years, I am just beginning to glimpse the difference between "your will be done" and "hey...can we make a deal here?"
I'm not saying I'm done birthing Ishmaels and Manassehs, God knows. What I am saying is that what I once read makes far more sense to me now than ever I previously knew...and not perhaps, as much as it yet shall.
There's nothing at all wrong about reading the scriptures, of course.
But again, I am just beginning to see the truth of what I declared some years previous to that. 
Jesus is Lord.
And that...has not come by study of "how" or "why"...but in learning someone has already studied me...and has perfectly arranged every possible "real" situation for me to find that out.

And mostly, it seems, that has come by me setting out to do something I thought right, in light of scriptures read...only to find out...I really had no idea of the meaning of what I'd read...in the first place.
Course corrections abound...but I cannot blame the map, or the cartographers. In fact, there is no blame. And maybe those words that got put in there (me), by my drinking...have taken the precise amount of time needed for digestion.
And only God knows why he chose to make me so weak. And slow.
I am not beyond considering it has something to do with how "smart" I used (?) to think I was.
Mostly now I find fellow-shipping with my own brilliance far less satisfying than knowing...and being with someone. 

But again...I hope, not as I yet shall.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 22, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> The bible is the biggest hindrance Christianity faces.



It's like a gun:  in the wrong hands, it can be dangerous.


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## Lowjack (Nov 22, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is the requirement to read the Bible Biblical? What does the Bible say about reading the Bible? Are there verses requiring us to read the Bible?
> Which book of scripture did Jesus read? He didn't read the Old Testament as you can't have an Old Testament without a New Testament. Jesus read the Tanakh. The Torah is part of the Tanakh. The Septuagint was a Greek translation of the Tanakh which came later. Jesus was pretty upset with the Scribes.
> 
> The Christian Bible's Old Testament (it’s adaptation of Tanakh) reveals that in many places there are significant translation differences rendering the meanings of the passages quite different. Not only are the books rearranged so that the books are not in the order of Torah, Prophets and Writings, but Kings, Ezra and Nehemiah are divided. The Protestant Old Testament contains roughly the same books; the Vulgate has additional texts added to the canon that were originally written in Greek. The Greek Septuagint (meaning 70) was originally referring to the Torah portion only, and in fact, that is the only portion that was translated by 72 scribes whose translations matched. The rest of Tanakh was translated from the Hebrew to the Greek over the course of about 300 years and scholars cannot tell who or when exactly any of them were translated. Yet the common name of Septuagint is now generally applied to the whole Greek translation. By the beginning of the first century CE, there were many different versions of each text that appeared, some of them with less accurate Hebrew to Greek, and during this time, many other texts appeared being originally written IN Greek such as the books of the Maccabees. By the time of the beginnings of Christianity, some of these texts of Tanakh had become so changed through the Hellenization (introduction of Greek philosophic concepts through language) that they were no longer adherent to Torah precept. The Hebrew Bible canon had been more or less "closed" since the time of Ezra/ Nehemiah (around 423 BCE) but of course, Jewish scribes still penned what was going on in Jewish life in Judea and wrote and discussed how to apply Torah to their lives. It has been debated by many Jewish scholars that if the Books of Maccabees had originally been written in Hebrew they may have been more readily accepted by Jews as Jewish texts..but as a part of Talmud, since the Tanakh was already formed..not as a part of our Bible.
> ...



Don't know here yo got your info from , but it is full of mistakes , The Torah is not part of the Tenak to begin with , The Torah is in itself one book in the Hebrew Language , but divided by the Catholic Fathers in 5 books or the first 5 books of the Old Testament, the Tenak is comprised of the book of prophets and the rest of the historical books and songs and Wisdom books. Yeshua ( Jesus) read the Book of prophets in Public and often quoted from the torah and also the Talmud, other books were quoted by the apostles as well such as the book of Enoch.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 22, 2012)

Except for the 45 dear friends and family that will be arriving shortly I'd get very wordy.  The last few comments have really peeked my thinking concerning the Bible/Gospel/Word.

It's the good news of Jesus as Christ that the world needs.  Christ lived and taught; His apostles lived and taught; they wrote documents/letters concerning everything they had seen, witnessed, and received through inspiration.  We have many of those writings.

I can't believe anything except what we have now is what God intended to be recorded.  
But we often "study" the Bible rather than "seek God's message".
We are not converted to our church!  We are not converted to our doctrinal beliefs!  Our salvation does not hinge on what I learned or did not learn from my family!
We seek the same Christ that the first century individual sought.  We seek the same understandings that the first century Christian needed.
It is Jesus Christ, and Godliness that we need in our lives, not adherence to "my" or "my church" doctrines.
Paul would have told us to "shut up and live for Christ".
Paul would have said:  "I don't care what conflict you see, 'live for Christ'".

It's so easy to become too focused on "the" Bible rather than the "Bible".  It is God and His Beloved Son whom we seek.  Not 'the' Bible.  

And yet,  the words of that Bible open up God and His son to us.  By reading.  By revelation.  By prayer. (my forehead has been disfigured by my continual hand pounding).


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## Ronnie T (Nov 22, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> It's like a gun:  in the wrong hands, it can be dangerous.



Guns don't kill, people kill.           Sorry.

.


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## Israel (Nov 22, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> It's like a gun:  in the wrong hands, it can be dangerous.



maybe that's part of what we either learn...or are judged by?
To take what is meant for life...and turn it to death...doesn't show the problem is with the instrument...but with us?
So, God's judgments remain sure.


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## Israel (Nov 22, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Except for the 45 dear friends and family that will be arriving shortly I'd get very wordy.  The last few comments have really peeked my thinking concerning the Bible/Gospel/Word.
> 
> It's the good news of Jesus as Christ that the world needs.  Christ lived and taught; His apostles lived and taught; they wrote documents/letters concerning everything they had seen, witnessed, and received through inspiration.  We have many of those writings.
> 
> ...


Amen.
and
LOL...at disfigured forehead!


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 22, 2012)

Lowjack said:


> Don't know here yo got your info from , but it is full of mistakes , The Torah is not part of the Tenak to begin with , The Torah is in itself one book in the Hebrew Language , but divided by the Catholic Fathers in 5 books or the first 5 books of the Old Testament, the Tenak is comprised of the book of prophets and the rest of the historical books and songs and Wisdom books. Yeshua ( Jesus) read the Book of prophets in Public and often quoted from the torah and also the Talmud, other books were quoted by the apostles as well such as the book of Enoch.



I do need to remember to post the link(I did post it later), but I did say "I didn't even know what all that means." I don't even think it's all that important to one's salvation or how to live a Christian life is what i'm saying. Would you agree that the Scriptures Jesus read are different from our versions of the Old Testament?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 22, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Reading and doing are not mutually exclusive.



I agree and I think we could all work on doing more of the doing and less of the reading.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 22, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> I'll make a bold statement and then run put my helmet on. The bible is the biggest hindrance Christianity faces. Although I don't disregard it, I have spent years studying it. More than 10 preachers combined, it is responsible for all the division. One group grabs hold of a few verses while denying others, and those denied are held tight by another group while they in turn deny those held by the other group. Hundreds of beliefs are derived by the same book. No way that this was Gods word or purpose. The bible has replaced the Spirit in peoples lives. People focus on what does the bible say, when we are to live by the Spirit he gave us.



I'm not as bold as you and i say this because I haven't studied the Bible as much as you but that's exactly what i'm talking about. 
We have all these dividing debates on here that don't change too many people's minds. We all "cut & paste" verses from the Bible the "proof" that we are right. Maybe we just want to know if anyone else believes as we do. Sort of a piece of mind. We all say our beliefs came from reading the Bible and from nowhere  else which is hogwash. I can't even begin to fathom  the division of Church because of man's reading of the Bible.
I do think the Bible is important, we don't have any other books. Most of the extra stuff got destroyed. We can't read Hebrew nor even Greek so we must depend on a King from England. Reading all the history in the Bible is important. Reading the law is important. Reading about the story of Jesus and his teachings is important. Reading about the Comforter is important. I just don't see the importance of reading and reading the Bible so you can make quotes as to impress if you aren't going to do anything about what you are reading. 
We were commanded to teach & tell the world about Jesus. After we do that, and the lost are found, then they can start their journey of learning.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 23, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Growing up in a Primitive Baptist Church(Church history) didn't have any influence on your beliefs?


I grew up in a will worshipping Baptist Church. I graduated from a will worshipping Baptist school. I was groomed by man to be a will worshipper. I would not change it if I could.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 23, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I grew up in a will worshipping Baptist Church. I graduated form a will worshipping Baptist school. I was groomed by man to be a will worshipper. I would not change it if I could.



Amen, I sure wouldn't change just from participating in an internet forum. I think your beliefs were formed from this Church & school. Obviously you don't and that's ok too.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 23, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Amen, I sure wouldn't change just from participating in an internet forum. I think your beliefs were formed from this Church & school. Obviously you don't and that's ok too.


It was the path God chose for me. It was necessary to deliver me to an appointed place and time. The memorized scriptures would have heaped more condemnation upon me but for God. Thankfully, all things work together for the good of his people. Sometimes, in my dream, I am standing before a large group and the scriptures flow from my lips in such a beautiful way. When I wake up, I struggle to recollect. But some day soon, the struggle will be over.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 23, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> The bible is the biggest hindrance Christianity faces. Although I don't disregard it, I have spent years studying it. More than 10 preachers combined, it is responsible for all the division.


Is there any apprehension at all in your dismissal of God and the apparent stumbling block placed before you?


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## barryl (Nov 23, 2012)

*?*



1gr8bldr said:


> I'll make a bold statement and then run put my helmet on. The bible is the biggest hindrance Christianity faces. Although I don't disregard it, I have spent years studying it. More than 10 preachers combined, it is responsible for all the division. One group grabs hold of a few verses while denying others, and those denied are held tight by another group while they in turn deny those held by the other group. Hundreds of beliefs are derived by the same book. No way that this was Gods word or purpose. The bible has replaced the Spirit in peoples lives. People focus on what does the bible say, when we are to live by the Spirit he gave us.


"The Bible is the biggest hindrance Christianity faces." John 17:17 KJV 1611 AV "Truth" is a hindrance? Sounds like a final authority issue to me. "Division," I am a Man just like anyone else, "Man" {Rom.3:10}  is the problem, Why? Here's the problem, 2 Tim. 2:15 The problem is not "rightly Dividing the word of truth." I hope you will take back your statement, remove "Bible"and insert "Mans Opinion"


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 23, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> It is Jesus Christ, and Godliness that we need in our lives, not adherence to "my" or "my church" doctrines.
> 
> It's so easy to become too focused on "the" Bible rather than the "Bible".  It is God and His Beloved Son whom we seek.  Not 'the' Bible.



I just thought this was worth repeating.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 23, 2012)

"As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: _whereunto also they were appointed._" (1 Peter 2:2-8)


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 23, 2012)

The verses in the Bible that mention "the word of God", are when God speaks. Jesus would sometimes tell us what "scriptures" said and sometimes he would tell us what "God" said.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 23, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
> To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
> Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
> Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
> And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: _whereunto also they were appointed._" (1 Peter 2:2-8)



What are your thoughts concerning these verses also from 1 Peter?


1 Peter 3:20-22
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.


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## hummerpoo (Nov 23, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> What are your thoughts concerning these verses also from 1 Peter?
> 
> 
> 1 Peter 3:20-22
> 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.



Perhaps a better translation?

New Jerusalem

 13. No one can hurt you if you are determined to do only what is right; 
 14. and blessed are you if you have to suffer for being upright. Have no dread of them; have no fear.
 15. Simply proclaim the Lord Christ holy in your hearts, and always have your answer ready for people who ask you the reason for the hope that you have. 
 16. But give it with courtesy and respect and with a clear conscience, so that those who slander your good behaviour in Christ may be ashamed of their accusations. 
 17. And if it is the will of God that you should suffer, it is better to suffer for doing right than for doing wrong.
 18. Christ himself died once and for all for sins, the upright for the sake of the guilty, to lead us to God. In the body he was put to death, in the spirit he was raised to life, 
 19. and, in the spirit, he went to preach to the spirits in prison. 
 20. They refused to believe long ago, while God patiently waited to receive them, in Noah's time when the ark was being built. In it only a few, that is eight souls, were saved through water. 
 21. It is the baptism corresponding to this water which saves you now, not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience given to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 
 22. who has entered heaven and is at God's right hand, with angels, ruling forces and powers subject to him.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 23, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> What are your thoughts concerning these verses also from 1 Peter?
> 
> 
> 1 Peter 3:20-22
> 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.



20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

The ark is typical of Christ. We are kept secure in Christ. Knowing that the 8 were saved from the water by the ark(Christ), in what sense were they saved by the water? Perhaps the water separated them from the wickedness that flooded the earth. The flood saved him, not from judgement (the ark did that), but from the wickedness all around him. Perhaps we also are saved by baptism, in the sense that we are separated from the godlessness of the world. 

Not sure if I am even where you wanted to go with this.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 24, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> What are your thoughts concerning these verses also from 1 Peter?
> 
> 
> 1 Peter 3:20-22
> 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.



Peter is speaking to 1st century Christians, and to us.

"saved, not in the water of baptism, but in the appeal to God for a good conscience."

I'm just wondering how you see that?


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## mtnwoman (Nov 24, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
> To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
> Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
> Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
> And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: _whereunto also they were appointed._" (1 Peter 2:2-8)



Of them that are disobedient...is that God's will, for us to be disobedient?  What do we have to be disobedient to? not believing as the Jews did not believe?
We chose to be disobedient (free will).....some of us try to be obedient(free will)...but none of us can. If it's God's will for no one to perish or to sin.....do you ever sin? that you need to repent for? If not then maybe you are of the elect by God choosing you. I'd love to hear your testimony.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 24, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Peter is speaking to 1st century Christians, and to us.
> 
> "saved, not in the water of baptism, but in the appeal to God for a good conscience."
> 
> I'm just wondering how you see that?


"(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"
What is a good conscience but one that is pure, without blemish. This accomplished by Christ "Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God"..."the righteous for the unrighteous".


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## Israel (Nov 24, 2012)

There's something inescapable about this: every man will serve his god.
There's no deviation, no wiggle room, no allowance for "occasional" lapses...as though "sometimes" our own will crosses God's will at an intersection.
Something else we learn is: The God who is true will show everyman the god he serves.
Now, for the believer, the promise is more than wonderful.
Jesus has promised to manifest himself to those who love him.
What is more glorious...than the appearing of our Lord to us? 
Do not our works pale? Is not our understanding wonderfully undone and humbled? Is not all consumed in the brightness of his coming...to us?

Oh, brethren. Have you tasted...I know you have!
May God help me to make this plain in your sight. 

I know a man...who even after having his socks literally blown off in blessing...the appearance of our Lord in glorious mercy and power...still...somehow discovered a wondering within "What did I do to make him appear?"
Was it "my" prayer? 
Was it years of so called "believing" coming to a fruition?
Was it something I had "earned" over time, or a deeper understanding being "repaid". 
God help me for so sounding the fool!
Each of these thoughts...and so many more...presented themselves...and each, like tin soldiers fell...and I see it was not by my "choice". Someone was knocking them over for me...even as I thought them and saw their utter foolishness when revealed...for I then saw their foolishness was only revealed by a light "not my own".
Oh, I have had visitations...as have we all. But their power toward me was in like measure to dispel a darkness.
I am so, so blind!
I have been so like the nine guys who walked away healed...while only one turned back! Or...perhaps I even shouted a "thanks" over my shoulder!
What I mean is this...when Jesus appears...I have discovered a remnant of something that wants to know "how do I make him do this "at my will"? Again...what did I "do", what can I again do...to make him show up when I need him?
I know it sounds so stupid! I am embarrassed ...almost.
But he knows...already...the "how" of I am.
And if...in that knowing of the "how that man is"...he still showed up...knowing that man would rummage through his thoughts..."Was it the desperation of my appeal (and how do I make that desperation my servant)?"
Was it "boldly proclaiming?" (God knows I was weeping in total weakness when I spoke, and even now I see my blessed and beloved wife, hunched over, walking away in unbearable heartbreaking sorrow saying "I can't be here when they bring the baby through...I just can't SEE it!")
Can I say "I had great faith, I stood! I stood on the promise of God!...ha ha ha ha. I had all I could do to in "seeking to not know"...all the things I once took pride in knowing...the meaning of so many of man's words...like jackals pacing round about...each taking a turn at lunging and testing the defenses, the fire around which I seemed to place my hope...that often seemed no more than a flickering candle's flame to me.
GOD! I don't want to know what I know!
It seemed all I knew was I needed to know something of which I knew so little...mercy.

Oh, brothers.
We wonder...like I always do...what do I have to do to "see" it?
What is "my" part...and what is God's part?
I can only testify of this as I can...mercy MUST be shown...it is never summoned....it is never at our will to make it appear...for if a man can deserve, by his doing...mercy...then...is it? Is it mercy?
Now to him who works the reward is reckoned, not of grace...but of debt...

Oh, how I have ignorantly tried to place God in my debt!
Oh...the fool! How could he not see what he was doing...even as he thought he testified of the merciful one!

If I have any faith at all, any thing of works "to do", anything awaiting to be seen...OH!...how I am learning...it is ONLY the richness of something about which I have had NOTHING to do...and so...even my struggles to "believe"...become laughable.

Jesus is Lord. And any remnants of thought, persuasion, slightest inklings to wonder "how did I figure that out"...or "why did I get to see it...what is it about me..."

Well, I hope you can laugh...and if not with me...well, then, even at me, is good!
If we love him at all...do we know...really...who loved...first...and only...?


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## hummerpoo (Nov 24, 2012)

Israel said:


> If I have any faith at all, any thing of works "to do", anything awaiting to be seen...OH!...how I am learning...it is ONLY the richness of something about which I have had NOTHING to do...and so...even my struggles to "believe"...become laughable.


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## jmharris23 (Nov 24, 2012)

Am I the only one that gets dizzy when I start reading in the spiritual forum?


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## Ronnie T (Nov 24, 2012)

All you say is true Israel.
Finally, all of us need to be embarrassed to even discuss 'myself' rather than discuss our Savior.  We talk too much.  We know too much.  We're just too 'me'.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 24, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> Am I the only one that gets dizzy when I start reading in the spiritual forum?





Like a drunk person.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 24, 2012)

Is the Ark analogy to Jesus Biblical? If it is then it looks like predestination IS the way after all.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 24, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is the Ark analogy to Jesus Biblical? If it is then it looks like predestination IS the way after all.



No.


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## barryl (Nov 24, 2012)

*Gods answer to the Thread Title*



Artfuldodger said:


> Is the requirement to read the Bible Biblical? What does the Bible say about reading the Bible? Are there verses requiring us to read the Bible?
> Which book of scripture did Jesus read? He didn't read the Old Testament as you can't have an Old Testament without a New Testament. Jesus read the Tanakh. The Torah is part of the Tanakh. The Septuagint was a Greek translation of the Tanakh which came later. Jesus was pretty upset with the Scribes.
> 
> The Christian Bible's Old Testament (it’s adaptation of Tanakh) reveals that in many places there are significant translation differences rendering the meanings of the passages quite different. Not only are the books rearranged so that the books are not in the order of Torah, Prophets and Writings, but Kings, Ezra and Nehemiah are divided. The Protestant Old Testament contains roughly the same books; the Vulgate has additional texts added to the canon that were originally written in Greek. The Greek Septuagint (meaning 70) was originally referring to the Torah portion only, and in fact, that is the only portion that was translated by 72 scribes whose translations matched. The rest of Tanakh was translated from the Hebrew to the Greek over the course of about 300 years and scholars cannot tell who or when exactly any of them were translated. Yet the common name of Septuagint is now generally applied to the whole Greek translation. By the beginning of the first century CE, there were many different versions of each text that appeared, some of them with less accurate Hebrew to Greek, and during this time, many other texts appeared being originally written IN Greek such as the books of the Maccabees. By the time of the beginnings of Christianity, some of these texts of Tanakh had become so changed through the Hellenization (introduction of Greek philosophic concepts through language) that they were no longer adherent to Torah precept. The Hebrew Bible canon had been more or less "closed" since the time of Ezra/ Nehemiah (around 423 BCE) but of course, Jewish scribes still penned what was going on in Jewish life in Judea and wrote and discussed how to apply Torah to their lives. It has been debated by many Jewish scholars that if the Books of Maccabees had originally been written in Hebrew they may have been more readily accepted by Jews as Jewish texts..but as a part of Talmud, since the Tanakh was already formed..not as a part of our Bible.
> ...


I thought ya'll might enjoy this Bible verse Psalms 138:2 KJV 1611 AV


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## gemcgrew (Nov 24, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is the Ark analogy to Jesus Biblical?


Yes, a type. There is but one theme, one subject, that runs through the whole Bible. Genesis to Revelation is the message of Christ and Him crucified. Do not miss it. It is the heart of the message of the word of God. 

"Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." (Luke 24:25-27)

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39)


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## Ronnie T (Nov 24, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Yes, a type. There is but one theme, one subject, that runs through the whole Bible. Genesis to Revelation is the message of Christ and Him crucified. Do not miss it. It is the heart of the message of the word of God.
> 
> "Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." (Luke 24:25-27)
> 
> "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39)



Disagree.  Obviously Salvation is of Christ, but that isn't what this verse speaks of.

*People's New Testament
3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us. Literally, the antitype now saves us, Baptism. Says Alford, Water saved them, bearing up the ark; it saves us, becoming to us baptism.''As they entered the Ark, we are baptized into Christ, the Savior. See Ga 3:27.Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh. Not as a Jewish ceremonial washing, which was only a purification of the flesh, but it is the answer of a good conscience.

*The is figurative.  The Ark and flood didn't actually save Noah's family, God saved them, they just entered the ark.  Baptism doesn't actually save us, God saves us.

The Ark, and Baptism, are an anti-type.  One helps understand the other, yet God is at work in both.


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## Israel (Nov 24, 2012)

I like the part when the Ark is brought into Dagon's tent.
Could be a lesson there about the presence of God and its effect on idols.
I took Jesus into my tent...and man...he's (thankfully) often found breaking stuff all up like he owned the place!


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## Mako22 (Nov 24, 2012)

Nothing of any real value to a real Christian is ever discussed in this forum and this thread proves it.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 24, 2012)

Woodsman69 said:


> Nothing of any real value to a real Christian is ever discussed in this forum and this thread proves it.



Start some "real value" threads.  I'll read 'em.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 24, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Disagree.  Obviously Salvation is of Christ, but that isn't what this verse speaks of.
> 
> *People's New Testament
> 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us. Literally, the antitype now saves us, Baptism. Says Alford, Water saved them, bearing up the ark; it saves us, becoming to us baptism.''As they entered the Ark, we are baptized into Christ, the Savior. See Ga 3:27.Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh. Not as a Jewish ceremonial washing, which was only a purification of the flesh, but it is the answer of a good conscience.
> ...



It would appear that Mr. Alford missed Christ completely.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 24, 2012)

Woodsman69 said:


> Nothing of any real value to a real Christian is ever discussed in this forum and this thread proves it.


I suppose the word of God is of no value then....to you.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 24, 2012)

Woodsman69 said:


> Nothing of any real value to a real Christian is ever discussed in this forum and this thread proves it.



I agree and have said that before. You are either saved or you aren't. This forum isn't much different from Church. You are either save or you aren't. I guess you might say the best thing about it are the Bible verses quoted. (might make you brush up on your own faith). But is that the scripture? If it is then as brother Ronnie said, don't get caught up in "the" bible rather than the "Bible". I interpret that to mean don't become a Bible expert if you aren't willing to do what it says or don't get so wrapped up in the Bible that you forget to be a Christian. It reminds me of an old Rock Hudson movie where he was a fishing expert in a department store. He could tell you any & everything about fishing. The problem was he had never been fishing. He had to enter a tournament and couldn't fish for the life of himself. 
So yes you are correct to an extent. But I want to say in my time on this forum, i've learned more here than any Church. So much that I consider this a Church. Let us pray: God, thank you for providing me with this internet Church. I know it doesn't provide me with any form of salvation, but as far as helping me "rightly divide the truth", it has helped tremendously. This forum has provided me with Christian fellowship I haven't been able to find in a building. On this forum I get to hear different viewpoints from my own. The topics really make me think. I had lost hope in the Church until I found this forum. Yes all are correct when they say there is some bull dung on this forum. With the help of the Holy Spirit, I can wade through it and toss it aside. Thanks for guiding me here. In Jesus name we pray, Amen.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 24, 2012)

Woodsman69 said:


> Nothing of any real value to a real Christian is ever discussed in this forum and this thread proves it.



Maybe we need to add a "Real Christian" forum.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 24, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> In Jesus name we prey, Amen.


Another thread altogether. (prey)


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 24, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Another thread altogether. (prey)



oops!


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 24, 2012)

barryl said:


> I thought ya'll might enjoy this Bible verse Psalms 138:2 KJV 1611 AV



 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

David is talking about God's promise. Like saying "I give you my WORD."


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 24, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is the Ark analogy to Jesus Biblical? If it is then it looks like predestination IS the way after all.



I don't even no where to begin. Jesus made Adam & Eve. They sinned. Evil got so bad that God flooded the Earth. God felt bad about having to do it. Somehow up to this point it doesn't sound like something God orchestrated. If he had, why did he feel bad? OK for whatever reason the flood came. Then all sorts of events, wars, problems, and things like that there happened. Some turned against God. No one could follow the Laws God gave them. (did God set them up to fail to be the hero?) God promised a Messiah throughout the Old Testament. Jesus shows up and makes a few comparisons to his life with events from the Old Testament. Prophesy foretold.

This is the thing. For it to all make since, God could not have caused it all to happen. I can't explain it all. The predestination believers will say the above is proof God orchestrated it all. He made man sin, knew he would flood the Earth. Used the flood as an analogy to Jesus, knew man couldn't follow the Law from the beginning, knew Adam would fall, and in fact not only knew it but made it happen. He made me type this. (why, only God's knows)

I don't figure it happened that way. Jesus used events from the Old Testament to compare events of his life. 
The only thing that gets in the way of my figuring is Prophets.


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## barryl (Nov 24, 2012)

*My Fault*



Artfuldodger said:


> I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
> 
> David is talking about God's promise. Like saying "I give you my WORD."


My fault, I shoulda said, the context of Psalms 138. Thats how highly God exalts his word!


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 24, 2012)

barryl said:


> My fault, I shoulda said, the context of Psalms 138. Thats how highly God exalts his word!



Amen to that. The Word of God is of most importance. It needs to be taught, sung, preached, conveyed, expressed, exampled, & witnessed to the whole wide World, on the streets, forests, villages, waterways , buildings, manholes, hunt camps, and to young, old, sick, healthy, nonbelievers, and believers.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 25, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is the Ark analogy to Jesus Biblical? If it is then it looks like predestination IS the way after all.


The Ark is a picture of the socalled rapture. Paul's use of "caught up" is "lifted up" high above the earth by the waters. God cleansed the Earth, sin and fallen angels becoming one with humans, a half man, half diety. Picture of what will happen in the end, God will cleanse the Earth of all those. The "present days are reserved for fire", Sodom being an example


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 25, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Is there any apprehension at all in your dismissal of God and the apparent stumbling block placed before you?


Hello Gemcgrew, no apprehension. It is not a dismissal of God. I am a son of God by adoption into the kingdom myself. It's a book that has been elevated beyond proper parameters. If the errors, embellishments, and contridictions were not backed by proof, then, yes, I would have apprehension. But it is what it is, so I don't pretend it to be something it's not. I don't think God expects me or anyone else to make it into something it is not. Keep in mind that this does not come from a quick dismissal, based on what others have said, but comes from a thousands of hours of study, driven to know for sure about these things I had stumbled across along the way. I do see a degree of inspiration in many parts of the scriptures. Without this book, I fear that we could have gone far from our roots, like the RC, LOL, but now I see it as a book written by those who desperately wanted to preserve this great gospel as they understood it. For example, I can read Paul's letters and derive that which he believed. The stumbling block is "the cross of Christ", the new cov is not that we be cleaned up, like a residential remoldel, but the we be tore down, raised a new with God as the builder


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 25, 2012)

barryl said:


> "The Bible is the biggest hindrance Christianity faces." John 17:17 KJV 1611 AV "Truth" is a hindrance? Sounds like a final authority issue to me. "Division," I am a Man just like anyone else, "Man" {Rom.3:10}  is the problem, Why? Here's the problem, 2 Tim. 2:15 The problem is not "rightly Dividing the word of truth." I hope you will take back your statement, remove "Bible"and insert "Mans Opinion"


You crack me up with your assumption that your own personal interpretation is "rightly dividing the word of truth" LOL, Hundreds of beliefs derived from this same book and all of them thinking this same thing. LOL


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## barryl (Nov 25, 2012)

*Card carrying member of the Scholarship Crew?*

QUOTE=1gr8bldr;7407327]You crack me up with your assumption that your own personal interpretation is "rightly dividing the word of truth" LOL, Hundreds of beliefs derived from this same book and all of them thinking this same thing. LOL[/QUOTE]Let me crack you up with this.Everyone needs a good laugh! So send me your address and I can send you the latest addition of Mad Magizine and then you can tell us how much you learned about God and his Son, The Lord Jesus Christ!! Talk about crackin' up!


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> The Ark is a picture of the socalled rapture. Paul's use of "caught up" is "lifted up" high above the earth by the waters. God cleansed the Earth, sin and fallen angels becoming one with humans, a half man, half diety. Picture of what will happen in the end, God will cleanse the Earth of all those. The "present days are reserved for fire", Sodom being an example



That's a nice analogy too, but is it biblical?


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 25, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's a nice analogy too, but is it biblical?


I do think that it is a biblical picture given to us, but that would be my opinion.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Gemcgrew, no apprehension. It is not a dismissal of God. I am a son of God by adoption into the kingdom myself. It's a book that has been elevated beyond proper parameters. If the errors, embellishments, and contridictions were not backed by proof, then, yes, I would have apprehension. But it is what it is, so I don't pretend it to be something it's not. I don't think God expects me or anyone else to make it into something it is not. Keep in mind that this does not come from a quick dismissal, based on what others have said, but comes from a thousands of hours of study, driven to know for sure about these things I had stumbled across along the way. I do see a degree of inspiration in many parts of the scriptures. Without this book, I fear that we could have gone far from our roots, like the RC, LOL, but now I see it as a book written by those who desperately wanted to preserve this great gospel as they understood it. For example, I can read Paul's letters and derive that which he believed. The stumbling block is "the cross of Christ", the new cov is not that we be cleaned up, like a residential remoldel, but the we be tore down, raised a new with God as the builder



I don't no where gemcgrew got the idea you had dismissed God. Ok what is your belief on what the "Word of God" is. Is it written down or just when God spoke? How do we tell or show people about God? Are their any scriptures better than the Bible? What was Jesus referring to when he said "for it is written"?


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 25, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't no where gemcgrew got the idea you had dismissed God. Ok what is your belief on what the "Word of God" is. Is it written down or just when God spoke? How do we tell or show people about God? Are their any scriptures better than the Bible? What was Jesus referring to when he said "for it is written"?


What do I think the Word of God is? Many things, Jeremiah said things like, "the word of God came to me". But he does not mean written.  Jesus did say, it is written, refering to the OT, but not the NT. I have often pondered if he was aware of the many OT problems. I suspect that what they saw as the written word was much less than what we have that we call the OT. I do however feel very strongly that the first 60 books of 1st Enoch was at the top of the list as the Word of God as viewed by those in Jesus's day. That would be a good discussion topic as to why I believe that, but I will refrain. What God spoke is also called the word. Such as rain. God spoke it into existence at the creation of all things, in those seven days. But the earth was watered by springs bursting up until the flood. Then God sent the pre created yet not yet existing rain, spoken word into existence. He created everything with his word. You might say, And the word became and fell among us. The NT writers never imagined that what they were writing would ever be considered on plane with what they refered to as Holy Scriptures.  Always enjoy discussing with you, and airing out my many thoughts with you friend. I also value your opinions


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2012)

I agree as you can see in my other responses that the "Word of God" is much more than his written word.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 25, 2012)

Also, since the NT was written  over a period of time, all of it recorded after the actual events, all of the writers would have reserved the word "word" for Jesus if he had ever been considered "the word" as some doctrines now believe, but instead we see them continue on with the proper use of the word with no hindrance of using it irreverantly


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## Israel (Nov 25, 2012)

"And the scripture cannot be broken..."

Can it be misunderstood? Misinterpreted? Mishandled? Misapplied?

Something there is about the cross...as 1gr8 speaks of...we are made naked...stripped down (to be clothed)...dead (to be resurrected)...and all _preconceptions_ (there's an interesting application of a word in its deconstruction) destroyed/annulled/consumed that brings us to see. 
Motives get exposed...intentions we didn't even know were there...revealed.

I am aware however...even of "this" in that...the desire for completion and fulfillment (and whether it be discerned "of" me...or of another...really doesn't matter...cause the need of one is the need of all) reminds me...there's something ill at ease in claiming to know...purely...without any taint. 
The nature of delusion is such that...we simply don't know when we are...till we are shown we are.
So, I appreciate a brother...who despite many sufferings and revelations on behalf of the Lord's body...was content to say this "and I believe I also have the spirit of Christ".

I don't find it compromising. I find it safe.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Also, since the NT was written  over a period of time, all of it recorded after the actual events, all of the writers would have reserved the word "word" for Jesus if he had ever been considered "the word" as some doctrines now believe, but instead we see them continue on with the proper use of the word with no hindrance of using it irreverantly



John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
That verse has always been one of the most confusing verses to me, even as a young child. How can Jesus be the Bible? Now if in Greek "word" means "God" or something else then I missed it but why "the word?" "And the Word was God" could have been added later making it all the more confusing.
Why didn't Jesus have a scribe follow him around? Is it because he wanted people to "live a Christian life" instead of reading about it? He'd had enough of people reading about what they were suppose to do.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2012)

OK I just read that "word"or "logos" in Greek means "reason" so I can see that Jesus is the "reason." I can assume that Jesus/word/reason was with God from the beginning as a separate entity.
My Lord/Word and my God. Not my Lord, my God. That's what Thomas said. He should know he was there not me.


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## ambush80 (Nov 26, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> OK I just read that "word"or "logos" in Greek means "reason" so I can see that Jesus is the "reason." I can assume that Jesus/word/reason was with God from the beginning as a separate entity.
> My Lord/Word and my God. Not my Lord, my God. That's what Thomas said. He should know he was their not me.



Perhaps you should know the word in Hebrew.  Maybe find out what the cultural implications of the word might have been in the region and time when it where and when it was written.  

Maybe you should do that with the whole book....(Parts in red translated from the original Aramaic)


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Perhaps you should know the word in Hebrew.  Maybe find out what the cultural implications of the word might have been in the region and time when it where and when it was written.
> 
> Maybe you should do that with the whole book....(Parts in red translated from the original Aramaic)



That would be better. From Hebrew or Aramaic to Greek and then on to English with 20 different translations. 
I guess the French and Spanish versions went through English too.


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## ambush80 (Nov 26, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> That would be better. From Hebrew or Aramaic to Greek and then on to English with 20 different translations.
> I guess the French and Spanish versions went through English too.



http://ask.yahoo.com/20030227.html

I would guess that it got translated into English, French and Spanish at around the same time; from Latin.....


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 26, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
> That verse has always been one of the most confusing verses to me, even as a young child. How can Jesus be the Bible? Now if in Greek "word" means "God" or something else then I missed it but why "the word?" "And the Word was God" could have been added later making it all the more confusing.
> Why didn't Jesus have a scribe follow him around? Is it because he wanted people to "live a Christian life" instead of reading about it? He'd had enough of people reading about what they were suppose to do.


I think this is the most misunderstood verse of all. It does not say that Jesus is the word. It says the word became flesh. The word became rain. The word became light. Etc, God spoke things into existense. God spoke, it became. The word became flesh, meaning what God spoke, his creative word, became that which he said. It never says Jesus is the word


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 26, 2012)

Kind of like a set of house plans. Drawn on paper long before it became a reality. The plans became a reality. The word became flesh.  All through the OT, God was revealing that he would someday send his chosen one, the one that he would annoint, the one to lead the people, etc, etc. The subjects from the NT speak about this coming expectation. It went from a spoken word, not yet exsisting, to Jesus being born


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Kind of like a set of house plans. Drawn on paper long before it became a reality. The plans became a reality. The word became flesh.  All through the OT, God was revealing that he would someday send his chosen one, the one that he would annoint, the one to lead the people, etc, etc. The subjects from the NT speak about this coming expectation. It went from a spoken word, not yet exsisting, to Jesus being born



Thanks for sharing that. It's the only interpretation of that verse that's ever made since.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 26, 2012)

<< Hebrews 1 >>
New American Standard Bible   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God’s Final Word in His Son

      1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 
      5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
         “YOU ARE MY SON,
         TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
         And again,
         “I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
         AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?

6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
         “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”

7And of the angels He says,
         “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
         AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”

8But of the Son He says,
         “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
         AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 

9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
         THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
         WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

10And,
         “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
         AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 

11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
         AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 

12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
         LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
         BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
         AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”

13But to which of the angels has He ever said,
         “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
         UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES
         A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”?

14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?


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## Ronnie T (Nov 26, 2012)

John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, 
                               and the Word was with God, 
                               and the Word was God. 
                                         2 He was in the beginning with God. 
3All things came into 
                    being through Him, 
                  and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.        
                                   4 In Him was life, and the life was the 
Light of men. 
                                5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it...........................................
                       14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 27, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> I think this is the most misunderstood verse of all. It does not say that Jesus is the word. It says the word became flesh. The word became rain. The word became light. Etc, God spoke things into existense. God spoke, it became. The word became flesh, meaning what God spoke, his creative word, became that which he said. It never says Jesus is the word


The entire Bible is understood, only, when it is received as the proclamation of Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2012)

The word λόγος (logos) in the prologue of John's Gospel is a word with a very interesting history in ancient theological writings. It is translated 'Word' in English versions, but this translation does not express everything that the term would have suggested to ancient readers.
Λόγος is from the root λεγ, appearing in λεγω, the primitive meaning of which is to lay: then, to pick out, gather, pick up: hence to gather or put words together, and so, to speak. Hence λόγος is, first of all, a collecting or collection both of things in the mind, and of words by which they are expressed. It therefore signifies both the outward form by which the inward thought is expressed, and the inward thought itself, the Latin oratio and ratio: compare the Italian ragionare, "to think" and "to speak."
http://www.bible-researcher.com/logos.html

It's still confusing as to why it was interpreted into the word "WORD".  For some reason I always associated the "WORD" to mean the "word of God" or the Bible.

Jesus being known in Scriptures as the Word means that he is God's chief spokes person, he is God's chief messenger.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus being known in Scriptures as the Word means that he is God's chief spokes person, he is God's chief messenger.


 
But much more. Read carefully, prayerfully through those verses in John ch 1.  Also consider Collosians as a backup, and the Hebrews verses/post.  Time doesn't permit me to say more than encourage you/others in the word/and the living "Word" ...  !!


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2012)

Yes, Jesus was Creator, Son of the Eternal Father,  Saviour, Teacher, Exemplar, Heir of Everything, Judge, King of Israel, Mediator, Servant, & Shepherd.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2012)

But getting back to the Bible before we turn this into another Trinity debate. How many consider the Bible to be without mistakes or contradictions? Can you tell it was written to people living at the time?
Do you consider any other great writings to be Scriptual such as the Dead Sea Scrolls or books left out of the Holy Bible? If another group of scholars got together in Nicea and decided the Dead Sea scrolls need to be included, would you be ok with that.? What about the Mormon Bible or the Catholic Bible which has more books than the Protestant Bible.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> How many consider the Bible to be without mistakes or contradictions?


Through the eyes of flesh or spirit?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Through the eyes of flesh or spirit?



We all read the Bible with guidance from the Holy Spirit but we all come up with a different Truth. I think our indoctronation is a hindrance. From your prospective the Holy Spirit guides us in different paths for the good of God.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2012)

I've heard Atheist say reading the Bible is what made them non-believers. I'm sure some will say they never were believers. But either way can you see how this could happen? Actually reading the Bible over the last five years has changed some of my indoctrinated beliefs. I guess it would be like you were the only missionary for a foreign village. You were the only one who could read and interpret the Bible to this tribe. Soon they learned to read and started to read the bible themselves. Their beliefs would change as they put aside your views and they formed their own.
This is what has happened to me. I suddenly learned to read the Bible for myself.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've heard Atheist say reading the Bible is what made them non-believers.


Reading the Bible feeds their unbelief. This is intended and heaps further condemnation upon them.



Artfuldodger said:


> I'm sure some will say they never were believers. But either way can you see how this could happen?


Yes, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Corinthians 2:14)

hmmm....


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## barryl (Nov 27, 2012)

Food for thought, God says in the Psalms, He preserves His word. The Truth is the Truth no matter what{ I, You, We} say, think, or believe.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> The word λόγος (logos) in the prologue of John's Gospel is a word with a very interesting history in ancient theological writings. It is translated 'Word' in English versions, but this translation does not express everything that the term would have suggested to ancient readers.
> Λόγος is from the root λεγ, appearing in λεγω, the primitive meaning of which is to lay: then, to pick out, gather, pick up: hence to gather or put words together, and so, to speak. Hence λόγος is, first of all, a collecting or collection both of things in the mind, and of words by which they are expressed. It therefore signifies both the outward form by which the inward thought is expressed, and the inward thought itself, the Latin oratio and ratio: compare the Italian ragionare, "to think" and "to speak."
> http://www.bible-researcher.com/logos.html
> 
> ...



Also, as you research "the Word" you'll find a strong reference to "Original" or "the original".


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## Ronnie T (Nov 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> We all read the Bible with guidance from the Holy Spirit but we all come up with a different Truth. I think our indoctronation is a hindrance. From your prospective the Holy Spirit guides us in different paths for the good of God.



No, the Holy Spirit doesn't guide us into different paths.  That would mean God's spirit is not a spirit of unity.

We are led in different paths by our preconceived notions.  We study 'backwards'.  We don't read and study as dumb people; rather, we read and study as people who already have the answers but are now sorting out our justifications.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> No, the Holy Spirit doesn't guide us into different paths.  That would mean God's spirit is not a spirit of unity.
> 
> We are led in different paths by our preconceived notions.  We study 'backwards'.  We don't read and study as dumb people; rather, we read and study as people who already have the answers but are now sorting out our justifications.



I can see your point. I can find verses to defend a certain belief and I can find verses against the same belief. I don't think God is happy with all the division in the Church today.
Man has certainly picked and chose passages out of the Bible to base his denominations on. This started with the Great Schism and then again with the Protestant schism. 
Mostly based on mans' interpritations of the Bible.

I haven't heard of the original bible but it sounds like something that needs to be restored and returned to. I'll definately check it out. If we all get together and restore it, what council would we use to make sure it will be inspired by God? Will just doing it be inspiration enough? We could have one rep from each major denomination, Protestants, and Catholics to sit down and restore it. If everyone adopts it then we'll know it was inspired by God.

But as we said earlier it's better to experience and feel the Word of God than reading the Bible. The Shakers didn't need a Bible. They said the Holy Spirit told them what to do.
The Devil knows more about the Bible than any man. There is nothing wrong with Bible study, just don't forget the reason why you are doing it.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2012)

barryl said:


> Food for thought, God says in the Psalms, He preserves His word. The Truth is the Truth no matter what{ I, You, We} say, think, or believe.



Is that why the Dead Sea Scrolls were found?


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## gemcgrew (Nov 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't think God is happy with all the division in the Church today.


If the Church is divided and Christ is the Head of the Church, what does that say? Or are you talking about all the various church buildings scattered about?


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## StriperAddict (Nov 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I can find verses to defend a certain belief and I can find verses against the same belief. I don't think God is happy with all the division in the Church today.


 
If I didn't believe revelation was possible I'd never pick up the scriptures again. Jesus said we can know God personally, and know His voice. That's a promise to all who would walk in humble contrition of heart and have a surrendered purpose to the call to believe in Him who was sent for us. 
It's not to say we will never walk in the flesh, but we ought to take the Lord at His word and add some faith to what we glean in the Spirit, and "do" the works He calls us to.


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## barryl (Nov 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is that why the Dead Sea Scrolls were found?


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> The word λόγος (logos) in the prologue of John's Gospel is a word with a very interesting history in ancient theological writings. It is translated 'Word' in English versions, but this translation does not express everything that the term would have suggested to ancient readers.
> Λόγος is from the root λεγ, appearing in λεγω, the primitive meaning of which is to lay: then, to pick out, gather, pick up: hence to gather or put words together, and so, to speak. Hence λόγος is, first of all, a collecting or collection both of things in the mind, and of words by which they are expressed. It therefore signifies both the outward form by which the inward thought is expressed, and the inward thought itself, the Latin oratio and ratio: compare the Italian ragionare, "to think" and "to speak."
> http://www.bible-researcher.com/logos.html
> 
> ...


Yes, We don't know if John was using "word" in a new way or whether he was building on an already widely understood concept. Many will say it was a new line of reasoning. Why, because they have a doctrine to protect. But the word "Logos" was full of meaning at the time John used it. Did he mean something new? I have opinions, but not proof. Philo was a greek philosper who used the word Logos something like 1800 times in his writings. He was seen as one of the main players in writing about the character of God. It is amazing the similarity of what Philo said. It is almost a perfect match of "In the beginning.........and the word was God". We know that Philo was before John, not by much but for sure, Philo did not get his quote from John, but John had to, if that is what happened, got his from Philo. Philo's version, we know from his other writings would not be interpreted anything close to how it is today. If John was refering to Philo, then it seems to reason that Philo's version was John's mindset also. But maybe John was somehow revealing that which Philo did not yet grasp, as if he was filling in the blanks. I used to have a very informative site bookmarked about this. I looked for it last night but so far have not found it.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 27, 2012)

I have aq hard time believing that John was trying to say that Jesus was God. If so, then why not just say it. John's gospel was written last. Many years had passed and John had to have noticed that thousands were rejecting Jesus as God, if that were the case. He would have written his gospel with a domineering theme in order to straighten out this issue. But we see Joh'n domineering theme being that Jesus was sent. This word used more than all NT writers combined by John. His "Sent" drew a familiar picture of Moses. How  they might not realize that God had sent him, that he is the messiah


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## gemcgrew (Nov 27, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> I have aq hard time believing that John was trying to say that Jesus was God. If so, then why not just say it.


I see 1-18 expounding on the meaning of "Word". Verse 17 identifies with Christ. For me, it is so simple and clear, I can't imagine controversy other than "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> If the Church is divided and Christ is the Head of the Church, what does that say? Or are you talking about all the various church buildings scattered about?



It would say man has free will. Man has read the Bible and interpreted various parts of it wrong. Or as Ronnie said people have a belief(already formed) that they want to back up by searching Bible verses to do so. I must say we're all guilty of this backwords study. We grew up with a certain belief so you use the bible to support your beliefs.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> It would say man has free will. Man has read the Bible and interpreted various parts of it wrong. Or as Ronnie said people have a belief(already formed) that they want to back up by searching Bible verses to do so. I must say we're all guilty of this backwords study. We grew up with a certain belief so you use the bible to support your beliefs.


I might could go along with that if it were true. My understanding has very little, if any similarity, to what I was taught growing up.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I might could go along with that if it were true. My understanding has very little, if any similarity, to what I was taught growing up.



Oh i see, you didn't grow up Protestant or just didn't grow up in a Christian household?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I see 1-18 expounding on the meaning of "Word". Verse 17 identifies with Christ. For me, it is so simple and clear, I can't imagine controversy other than "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."



We could use 2 Peter 3:16 as the answer for everyone who disagreed with our interpretation of any verse.
2 Peter 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Might better be on your guard or an unstable person like me could cause you to fall from your secure position. So much for eternal security.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> We could use 2 Peter 3:16 as the answer for everyone who disagreed with our interpretation of any verse.


Or we could reserve it for someone who declares the word of God a hindrance to Christians. Such a comment should get your attention.


Artfuldodger said:


> Might better be on your guard or an unstable person like me could cause you to fall from your secure position. So much for eternal security.


If my eternal security was based in any way on my abilities, I'd have no security.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Oh i see, you didn't grow up Protestant or just didn't grow up in a Christian household?


I was an unbeliever that grew up in a free-will, easy-believism Baptist Church. I was told that I was a sinner and needed saving. I was coerced into doing things that supposedly would save me. Then I was told that I was saved and not to let anybody convince me otherwise. Such nonsense. We can not convince someone that they are a sinner anymore than we can save someone from their sinfulness. God does both.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Or we could reserve it for someone who declares the word of God a hindrance to Christians. Such a comment should get your attention.
> 
> If my eternal security was based in any way on my abilities, I'd have no security.



It did get my attention only because I can see what he is talking about. He can see as I that maybe the Bible isn't what God wanted people to sit around and read without doing anything else. This can cause divisions and even disbelief. This was a quote from his response;  People focus on what does the bible say, when we are to live by the Spirit he gave us. I would add that listening to the Holy Spirit dwelling in us is far more important than Bible study. Again I don't have a problem with reading the Bible but is there a biblical  requirement to read the Bible? I'm not talking about following God's word. If we have the Comforter living in us, don't you think that is far more important than a book?

I'll give the analogy of the US flag. It's just a symbol, the country it represents is what's worth protecting. I don't care what you do to the flag. You can burn it if you bought it. I'll even fight for your right to burn the flag. That's how much i feel about the freedom the flag represents.
That's the way I feel about God vs the Bible. 

What does 2 Peter 3:17 mean?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I was an unbeliever that grew up in a free-will, easy-believism Baptist Church. I was told that I was a sinner and needed saving. I was coerced into doing things that supposedly would save me. Then I was told that I was saved and not to let anybody convince me otherwise. Such nonsense. We can not convince someone that they are a sinner anymore than we can save someone from their sinfulness. God does both.



You had Protestant influences instead of Catholic. When you were saved in this Church it didn't take? Later when you were in the Church you are in now it took? Even though you were coerced, if elected why didn't it take? I guess what i'm asking is do I have to join a Church that believes in Election to be elected?


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## gemcgrew (Nov 28, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> It did get my attention only because I can see what he is talking about. He can see as I that maybe the Bible isn't what God wanted people to sit around and read without doing anything else. This can cause divisions and even disbelief.


And it should cause division! Today, it is preached in such a way as to not offend the goats. The churches are full of goats who think they are sheep and the hirelings are cowards with God's word.




Artfuldodger said:


> This was a quote from his response;  People focus on what does the bible say, when we are to live by the Spirit he gave us. I would add that listening to the Holy Spirit dwelling in us is far more important than Bible study. Again I don't have a problem with reading the Bible but is there a biblical  requirement to read the Bible? I'm not talking about following God's word. If we have the Comforter living in us, don't you think that is far more important than a book?


If you have the Holy Spirit, you can't keep from reading the "book". Do we not desire to see Christ on each and every page? If we have to ask if there is a requirement to read scripture, something is evidently lacking.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 28, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> You had Protestant influences instead of Catholic. When you were saved in this Church it didn't take?


Of course it didn't. You can't save yourself by "repeat after me" or by being "coaxed down an isle". God makes the sinner and God saves the sinner. 


Artfuldodger said:


> Later when you were in the Church you are in now it took?


Church? I was in my church, the world, minding my own business and satisfying all my desires. It is God who said "enough". Thankfully, He didn't show up alone or judgement would have followed. He showed up with the Spirit and the Son. Mercy and Grace accomplished. I didn't want it until it had value. I didn't need it until made aware of my sinfulness. I didn't take it, it took me and all of me. I didn't choose God, He chose me. Nobody can convince me that I did anything. Shoot man, I was there.


Artfuldodger said:


> Even though you were coerced, if elected why didn't it take?


It is in God's timing, not mine or man's.


Artfuldodger said:


> I guess what i'm asking is do I have to join a Church that believes in Election to be elected?


Of course not. Salvation is not in a system of doctrine or theology. Salvation is of the Lord.


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## Israel (Nov 28, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> If you have the Holy Spirit, you can't keep from reading the "book". Do we not desire to see Christ on each and every page? _If we have to ask if there is a requirement to read scripture, something is evidently lacking._


italics mine.


Like men on a treasure hunt, we never know what we will find. If our minds could contain all the wonders of the treasure...what sense to then pursue it? But something moves us.
Sometimes, perhaps often, for me, I uncover something...it seems completely bizarre, completely unlike anything I have either experienced yet in Christ, or something that almost seems..."outside"...but there remains the inner conviction "My Lord has shown me this"...and it remains unshakeable and undeniable.
It is then, as has been my experience, things once read...perhaps even overlooked in their seeming insignificance at the time, come to light. I search them out...I dig, I find.
"Wow!" What is new to me...is already there! Always has been...just waiting to be uncovered, and understood.

One simple line...one string of words, perhaps even often quoted...become LIFE!

"The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"

Where once I considered Jesus "plan B" for a screw up a perfect God made in his "first" creation...(talk about all the contradictions that line of thinking will embrace) I found all the frustration God had ordained for me to find...in my mistaken belief that now "I" was charged with being part of the fix it crew.
No, I am part of the "show" it crew.
It is a far different thing to see.
For one requires me to work to do something.
The other invites me to "see", that I might show something.
And oh...what is seen...what is seen.
The plan has never been less than perfect...and everything that had to be frustrated (as in "I am here to explain why a perfect God had to fix something he did") blows away like chaff.
And the perfection of God is to some extent (by me) beheld...even...from the beginning.
Everything that "knows better" is reduced...in the twinkling of an eye...but always...first...in me.
And my confidence is therefore changed...to not even my ability to show, or do, or make plain...what I could never even do for myself.
And seeing this, knowing, the only one who has done everything well...continues. 

With, and in, all of us.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 28, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Or we could reserve it for someone who declares the word of God a hindrance to Christians. Such a comment should get your attention.
> 
> If my eternal security was based in any way on my abilities, I'd have no security.


Hello gemcgrew, I was of the same opinion for 20 years, but after I had stumbled across enough contridictions to make me take note, to cause me to dig in deeper, my opinion changed, I could no longer call it the word of God, but instead, the word of man. But it still remains the best source we have in regards to learning about the gospel.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 28, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Of course it didn't. You can't save yourself by "repeat after me" or by being "coaxed down an isle". God makes the sinner and God saves the sinner.
> 
> Church? I was in my church, the world, minding my own business and satisfying all my desires. It is God who said "enough". Thankfully, He didn't show up alone or judgement would have followed. He showed up with the Spirit and the Son. Mercy and Grace accomplished. I didn't want it until it had value. I didn't need it until made aware of my sinfulness. I didn't take it, it took me and all of me. I didn't choose God, He chose me. Nobody can convince me that I did anything. Shoot man, I was there.
> 
> ...




Those are some good answers. I feel we put too much coersion on young people to "walk the aisle" for the wrong reason. Not everyone but some. When you are really save you will recieve the Holy Spirit and you'll know it. If you didn't recieve the Holy Spirit, then it didn't take.


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## barryl (Nov 28, 2012)

*You can lead a Horse to Water. . .*

John :1-2 In the beginning,{stick to the English.} Trinity{Diety}Jesus Christ,2nd member of the Trinity. "Word" Capitol "W"- The Lord Jesus Christ. "w"- word Lower case - scripture. No need to run to 29 or 30 translations or 20+ Greek texts. 1 John, check it out, God didn't make his word like "rocket science", he made it so simple even I {or you} can understand it. My final authority is the KJV AV.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 28, 2012)

barryl said:


> John :1-2 In the beginning,{stick to the English.} Trinity{Diety}Jesus Christ,2nd member of the Trinity. "Word" Capitol "W"- The Lord Jesus Christ. "w"- word Lower case - scripture. No need to run to 29 or 30 translations or 20+ Greek texts. 1 John, check it out, God didn't make his word like "rocket science", he made it so simple even I {or you} can understand it. My final authority is the KJV AV.


LOL, dude, no capitals in the greek. Your KJ took the liberty of doing that, Edit; they were all capitals. Whichever you wish to call it. They did not differentiate between the two.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 28, 2012)

There's no such thing as a document that cannot be shredded by someone who's looking to minimize it.  For over 40 years I've loved every word of the Bible.
I've read many of your problems with it, but don't see what you see.
And it's tough to type with a splint on my middle finger.   

.


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## Israel (Nov 28, 2012)

I sometimes wonder if some remnant of superstition remains as to our perceptions of what makes something "holy".
Do the scriptures come like "automatic writing"...so completely ethereal in construct and record as to be all and only what the Lord has ever...will ever...speak on any matter?
I do not doubt the completeness, or imply an incompleteness by any means...but rather could there remain a perception as though a book was "dropped" complete from heaven...or was it something else...something (rather a "someone") who came down from heaven to indwell men "in truth"...so that their testimony might be also received "in truth"?
These "true" men...faithful to what they saw, and as a result penned, calls to others who would seek to be true, and, in searching out the same God who brought forth such faithfulness and sincere devotion, might somehow come to Him, and in that discovery, also be transformed?

Jesus said this: 
Joh_7:17  If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. 

It appears Jesus had great confidence to recommend this. Not that a man would even, of his own "volition"...so to speak, have to agree with everything the Lord Jesus has said...but that if any man...and such a man...would present himself before the God of all creation to seek his will...he would discover, be brought to discover...be made to know...the only true God was at work in Jesus' every word and deed to show...there is no salvation apart from him.
To be approved of God, I had the many checklists I suppose I am not alone in having. "I must be kinder", I must be "benevolent", I must be at least "tolerant"...for I cannot but look around and see...and say..."OK, if I want to know the God who has all power...and all exercise of his will at his whim..." how can so much of what seems to contradict...be...allowed to be? 
Ultimately the rabbit trail becomes unbearably thin, and I find myself in the brambles of my own contradictions against such patience, mercy, and benevolence...stuck...fixed...pinioned...in complete frustration...till I see myself as completely contradictory to God. For, in my inability to move, to "do"...I despair of knowing the one who is always moving...indeed, the "prime" mover. And it is here I discover the wonderful release of the word of Christ: 
"of myself, I can do nothing"
"I have come to do not my own will"
What then of this will...that I once thought I possessed to do the will of God?
It is perfectly and irremediably frustrated.
Ahhh! Now I begin to see..."I" set out thinking I will take a noble path...to "do" the will of God...and discover...I am opposed to the very thing I thought I could will myself to serve.
Yes...Jesus...yes!
I must be "willed" to serve God...by another! Even as you said of yourself...you didn't even come of your own will...but were sent by the will of the Father. And in that you willed not of yourself, but by another will...to speak not your own words, and do not your own deeds.
And so I begin to see.
Yes...all in me that would strive to present a willing obedience of myself...is finally revealed as pernicious pride, the:
 "I will be like God".
Oh! The perfection of it! The precision of it!
I am led to Jesus in all my self efforts to finally collapse at his feet...seeing the one who did not his own will, to make way for a greater will.
And come to maybe glimpse the truth in this, another discovered, and penned:
Heb_10:10  By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 

Do I now believe?
Do I now see which will was at work through Christ...to save?
Do I believe it is God's will, in Christ...now...toward me...to also believe this:
Rom_8:32  He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Even, and especially give me precisely what I need to be delivered from "my own will"?
The which "I" have discovered, has no interest in serving God, but only itself?

And in that admission at last, I come to see the enemy of God.
But infinitely more wonderful, I see the one who came to save an enemy.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 28, 2012)

Israel said:


> I sometimes wonder if some remnant of superstition remains as to our perceptions of what makes something "holy".
> Do the scriptures come like "automatic writing"...so completely ethereal in construct and record as to be all and only what the Lord has ever...will ever...speak on any matter?
> I do not doubt the completeness, or imply an incompleteness by any means...but rather could there remain a perception as though a book was "dropped" complete from heaven...or was it something else...something (rather a "someone") who came down from heaven to indwell men "in truth"...so that their testimony might be also received "in truth"?
> These "true" men...faithful to what they saw, and as a result penned, calls to others who would seek to be true, and, in searching out the same God who brought forth such faithfulness and sincere devotion, might somehow come to Him, and in that discovery, also be transformed?
> ...



Being that I am weary with seeing sin as perhaps Jonas did likewise, and therefore I find I am a poor witness to his will, I must say.... YOUR RIGHT similarly as Jesus is right! I have never seen or heard  a people who claim salvation with lungs full of air and yet deliberately turn their feet from the will of God, which they know very well, and make Him a stranger, as I have recently.

I don't know that God has given the saved leave to hate--which is antichrist as the day is long! Why do so many saints hate the words and councels of God and yet claim the Word their personal road map!

I am under my shade tree and yet can't wait that my God kills it and I will breath-in sin no more. God is not a mystery, but His will with them, in their faces, at hand, the will of men continues to be...especially when calling themselves "chosen" of Him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now... I feel much better.... maybe the tree can give shade  just for one more day. It is time to break the wraps on the tents again and arrange the seating...the Holy Ghost needs to dictate a few letters...Patriots are calling that rome should burn... Like me they are calling fire down on themselves...but like me they are calling the wrong fire for the wrong reasoning.... Lord have patience!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Anyway, Yes YOUR RIGHT!


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 28, 2012)

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you—but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,


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## gordon 2 (Nov 29, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you—but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,



And what a tangled web they weave.


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## barryl (Nov 29, 2012)

*???*



Artfuldodger said:


> We could use 2 Peter 3:16 as the answer for everyone who disagreed with our interpretation of any verse.
> 2 Peter 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
> 
> Might better be on your guard or an unstable person like me could cause you to fall from your secure position. So much for eternal security.


The only person that you have a chance at is a lazy person that won't study{or believe} the Bible. Even then, that won't change anything, why, Sound Bible Doctrine. Playin' Devils advogate again??


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2012)

barryl said:


> The only person that you have a chance at is a lazy person that won't study{or believe} the Bible. Even then, that won't change anything, why, Sound Bible Doctrine. Playin' Devils advogate again??



No, gemcgrew quoted verse 2 Peter 3:16. I quoted the very next verse which says man can fall from his secure position. 
I confess I was picking on the Eternal Security crowd a little so what's your view on 2: Peter 3:17?


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## StriperAddict (Nov 29, 2012)

*2: Peter 3:17*




Artfuldodger said:


> No, gemcgrew quoted verse 2 Peter 3:16. I quoted the very next verse which says man can fall from his secure position. I confess I was picking on the Eternal Security crowd a little so what's your view on 2: Peter 3:17?


 
"Secure position" is not referring to salvation in that verse, but steadfastness of mind.  Being mindful and guarding onesself from false doctrine will bring about such security (heart/mind).  
*



 
Phulasso is present tense, imperative mood indicating a command to make this the habit of your life - "keep on guarding yourselves".

To be forewarned is forearmed. The known danger (knowing beforehand) and the resultant duty (guard) go together.

Click to expand...

*

Consider...

YOU FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS: (2Peter 1:10,11; 2:18, 19, 20, 21, 22; Acts 2:42; 1Co 15:58; Eph 4:14; Col 2:5; Heb 3:14; 1 Pe 5:9) 

Here is the danger against which Peter is warning his readers and his statement implies the possibility of this tragic occurrence. Peter is not referring to losing one's salvation for that is eternally secure in Christ. Once the Spirit has taken you out of Adam and placed you into Christ, this glorious exchange by faith can never be reversed irrespective of teaching you might have heard to the contrary! On the other hand Peter is speaking of the believer's fall from stability in regard to things like doctrine, truth, conviction, confidence.
*Fall* (*ekpipto* from *ek* = from + *pípto* = to fall.) depicts an act of falling away from or out of a desired position and into a less desired position or condition (cf Gal 5:4). 
 

*Check:  Commentary *


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## barryl (Nov 29, 2012)

*Rightly Divide*



Artfuldodger said:


> No, gemcgrew quoted verse 2 Peter 3:16. I quoted the very next verse which says man can fall from his secure position.
> I confess I was picking on the Eternal Security crowd a little so what's your view on 2: Peter 3:17?


Heres that ugly word again, Context, Ch. 3 is talking about "The Day Of The Lord" That would be {Historical Application} Although salvation "could be" spiritualized you would have to back up to verse 16 to do it. The timing is wrong{Faith and Works}


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> "Secure position" is not referring to salvation in that verse, but steadfastness of mind.  Being mindful and guarding onesself from false doctrine will bring about such security (heart/mind).
> 
> 
> Consider...
> ...



It's possible 2 Peter 3:17 isn't talking about security. Maybe the KJV  has it right with "stedfastness" or secure footing. 
At least ya'll don't have to worry about falling away, losing, wandering, or being shipwrecked from your faith. Some of us do.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 29, 2012)

Oh my goodness.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 30, 2012)

*it was for freedom that Christ set you/us free...*



Ronnie T said:


> Oh my goodness.


Eloquintly said 



Artfuldodger said:


> It's possible 2 Peter 3:17 isn't talking about security. Maybe the KJV has it right with "stedfastness" or secure footing.
> At least ya'll don't have to worry about falling away, losing, wandering, or being shipwrecked from your faith. Some of us do.


Perhaps a prayerful study of just who you are in Christ might be a worthwhile study. 
Here's part of a statement of faith ... FYI...


*SALVATION*​I believe that every person is born dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1-note, Ep 2:5-note, Col 2:13-note, cp Ep 4:18, 19-note) passed on from Adam (Ro 5:12-note) and that the "God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven" and that our salvation is "protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1Pe 1:3, 4-note, 1Pe 1:5-note). I believe that men and women are saved "by grace...through faith; and that not of" ourselves but that salvation "is the gift of God not as a result of works, that no one should boast" and that our salvation reflects that we are "His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph 2:8, 9-note, Ep 2:10-note), that when we are born again from above (Jn 3:3) we become "a new creature; the old things passed away" and "new things have come" (2Co 5:17) so that the regenerated individual now is empowered to live a brand new way of life (Ro 8:13-note, Ro 8:14-note, Ezek 36:27, et al), his or her works now a manifestation of that new life so that the lost will see those good works and receive a proper opinion of our heavenly Father (Mt 5:16), and that this individual will persevere to the end (Heb 3:6-note, He 3:14-note, Mt 24:13). I believe the basis of mankind's salvation is that "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life"...and that "He who believes in Him is not judged" but that "he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (Jn 3:16, 17, 18). I believe that God our Savior "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1Ti 2:4), "not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" (2Pe 3:9-note). I believe that the Gospel is "the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" (Ro 1:16-note). I believe that the basis of our salvation is that Jesus Christ "gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds" (Titus 2:14-note), that God "saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, Whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:4-note, Titus 3:5-note,Titus 3:6, 7-note), and that everyone "who hears (Jesus') word, and believes Him who sent (Jesus) has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life (Jn 5:24). I believe that we "were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from (our) futile way of life ...but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ" Who "was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for" our sake and that we "through Him are believers in God, Who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that (our) faith and hope are in God" and that we "have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and abiding word of God." (1Pe 1:18, 19-note, 1Pe 1:20, 21-note, 1Pe 1:22, 23-note).


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## Ronnie T (Nov 30, 2012)

I don't like those 'statements of faith'.  They put words in my mouth.  They arrange scripture in a certain order to achieve an individual purpose.  They leave out most of the Word for the specific purpose of detailing what's most important to the one signing off on the statement.


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## Madman (Nov 30, 2012)

When my children were young I would sometimes make a statement that my wife despised: 

"I don't want our children to know the Bible, I want them to know the God of the Bible."

But the primary way God has chosen to reveal himself to his creation is through the Holy Scriptures.  I would argue you cannot know God if you do not study God's Word.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 30, 2012)

Madman said:


> When my children were young I would sometimes make a statement that my wife despised:
> 
> "I don't want our children to know the Bible, I want them to know the God of the Bible."
> 
> But the primary way God has chosen to reveal himself to his creation is through the Holy Scriptures.  I would argue you cannot know God if you do not study God's Word.



I agree with you.

.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 1, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> I don't like those 'statements of faith'.  They put words in my mouth.  They arrange scripture in a certain order to achieve an individual purpose.  They leave out most of the Word for the specific purpose of detailing what's most important to the one signing off on the statement.


You posted a similar "Statement of faith" not too long ago that was well put, broad in scope, but left out the emphasis on security that the one I posted did. I see that as the only difference, but it makes for not a well balanced believer... one who still strives at "perfection" in spirit, when the work to destroy and substitute our fallen nature for the righteous was all completed and finalized by the Best Man on earth/Lord of heaven and earth's shed blood and death.
Reading this, I would ask, is the cross of Christ a done deal for the salvation of man's soul and spirit, or is it not???


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## hawglips (Dec 5, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not doubting these commands to study the scripture. Just what "the Scripture" is. I would like to see these other verses.



There are a lot of scripture referenced in the Bible that we don't have at our disposal at the moment.  And out of Jesus' 3 year ministry and 33 year life, we only know of a  very few things that he did and said.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 5, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> You posted a similar "Statement of faith" not too long ago that was well put, broad in scope, but left out the emphasis on security that the one I posted did. I see that as the only difference, but it makes for not a well balanced believer... one who still strives at "perfection" in spirit, when the work to destroy and substitute our fallen nature for the righteous was all completed and finalized by the Best Man on earth/Lord of heaven and earth's shed blood and death.
> Reading this, I would ask, is the cross of Christ a done deal for the salvation of man's soul and spirit, or is it not???



The supreme sacrifice has been made and completed.
Every soul that's to be save has not been saved yet.

Where is that statement I made?  I vaguely remember.

.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 5, 2012)

I think this might be it.....

"Originally Posted by Ronnie T  
I know that I do.
I believe the thousands of verses prior to this one, and I believe the hundreds that come after it.

I believe the very next verse, (10) "10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

I'm also thankful for the gift revealed here: Chap 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

But only a fool would look at this as being a lottery ticket that's gonna get him/her into heaven.
The whole of the Gospel message is not about getting hold of an assurance of heaven so that no one will lock me out.
The Gospel message is about living in that eternal existance even now. It is now, right now. Even with my sins and weaknesses. Enjoying discipleship in Christ. Arising every morning knowing that God has busted open another day for us. Knowing that I've got one more day to see Him more clearly.

Assurance of salvation? Man I don't need assurance! I'm the prodigal son who's been reconciled to his father.
God has thrown me a party. It's never going to end.
I'm not working my way to heaven. I'm workin on my father's farm.


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## Israel (Dec 5, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> I think this might be it.....
> 
> "Originally Posted by Ronnie T
> I know that I do.
> ...



Amen!


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## gordon 2 (Dec 6, 2012)

After salvation perhaps, after accepting Christ in one's heart, the question should not change from "What can you do for me?" to "What can I do for you?" It should still be "Lord what can you do? snow me the way... and I will follow..." and as Ronie T says... "in the here and now."


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## StriperAddict (Dec 8, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> The supreme sacrifice has been made and completed.
> Every soul that's to be save has not been saved yet.
> 
> Where is that statement I made?  I vaguely remember.
> ...


I'll check when I have time.  I don't remember the thread, but I have mad searchin' skills on this here board!


Israel said:


> Amen!


A hearty amen on your post also, Ronnie! Especially the line our brother highlighted... what an encouraging perspective, as God sees us in eternity now!  Amen indeed!


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 8, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> A hearty amen on your post also, Ronnie! Especially the line our brother highlighted... what an encouraging perspective, as God sees us in eternity now!  Amen indeed!



Another Amen to that line. I would hate to think a Christian is just waiting for death to reap the benefits of being a Christian.
I like the Christian life. Reminds me of a song.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 15, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Where is that statement I made?  I vaguely remember.
> 
> .



Sorry for the delay, I've had work pc problems lately on here.

Your post 349 from the "Assurance of salvation" thread was the confession of faith I remembered.  



Ronnie T said:


> The supreme sacrifice has been made and completed.
> Every soul that's to be save has not been saved yet.


I fear the "door" will close soon - the world's time to come in from the darkness is right now


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