# The Flood. Global or Local?



## hobbs27 (Sep 30, 2014)

Two major problems I have to overcome to accept a global flood in the story of Noahs Ark.

1. He preached the flood was coming and no one believed. Would the arriving animals from all parts of the world not been evidence to even the most critical thinkers of those times?

2. Once the boat settled and land was once again present, how would Noah get the polar bear back to the arctic, the elk back to America, the Llama back to south America, the kangaroos back to Australia, the Panda back to China, etc. etc.?

 I think a local flood of their world makes much more sense, what do you think, other than all things are possible through God?


----------



## formula1 (Sep 30, 2014)

*Re:*

Interesting thoughts!  In response:

1) Evidence to a blind man devoid of the Spirit is no evidence at all!  You need only look around today to confirm this.

2) Noah did not bring them to the ark and I am sure he did not return them to their homes!  In the truest sense of this phrase, God did it!  I don't need to know anything else really.  I trust it!

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God proves true; He is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

I'll admit that I am of the ilk that trusts the word of God fully, so I wouldn't spend too much time thinking about global or local.  But if I were to think of it now, I would think the local flood that would cover the local area even a greater task, since the task of containing water locally to the mountain tops would be a very tall tale.  But God can do still do all things!

May the love of Christ dwell in your heart toward God and others!  I think that is what matters most!


----------



## gemcgrew (Sep 30, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Two major problems I have to overcome to accept a global flood in the story of Noahs Ark.
> 
> 1. He preached the flood was coming and no one believed. Would the arriving animals from all parts of the world not been evidence to even the most critical thinkers of those times?


Sure, but natural men only recognize evidence of natural phenomena and explain it away as such. 


hobbs27 said:


> 2. Once the boat settled and land was once again present, how would Noah get the polar bear back to the arctic, the elk back to America, the Llama back to south America, the kangaroos back to Australia, the Panda back to China, etc. etc.?


The same way he got them to the Ark. 


hobbs27 said:


> I think a local flood of their world makes much more sense, what do you think, other than all things are possible through God?


Global.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 30, 2014)

They just made a movie about this.  Go watch it.  It explains everything (including the little known stow-away on the boat that makes the story much more exciting).


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 30, 2014)

Best guess according to what can be gleaned from scripture it that it took noah 20-40 years to build the ark.  If it was a local flood why didn't God just tell him to move.  I think Global.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 30, 2014)

How about a local flood ( a big one) which caused tremondous distruction to people, animals and the environment  and which was used in " a story" (which we know as a spiritual myth), by someone inspired by God to explain God's wrath and God's grace in a way that ordinary people could understand, or assimilate, by simply retelling the story orally or by reading its short text. 

The above is probably the longest sentence I have ever written to explain something serious. 

People, believers, ask even today why would God permit cataclysmic events from nature to injure people. The story  Noah's Flood explains  in this case that people who live without God are gonna have real life and death problems, that because of their lack of spiritual responibilities they are going to be victims of nature vs. stuarts of nature.

Right now I have to think of the economic oppertunities that  business people in Pakistan, for example,  are enjoying from friendly investors. These entrepreneurs with pent up expectations from the capitalist system in their fency to be successful  as quickly as possible are building business districts and housing on flood plains!

 Also I can think of where people settle  near water courses, first in villages  which turn to towns, which grow into cities near flood plains ---everywhere all over the world. I can see where "good" people who initially settle the towns, ended up with " good and bad"  when their homes got to be a section of the "inner" city. And so, on...

So I'm gona stop rambling... but for me Noah is a spiritual myth or a spiritual story, taken  from and edited from real events to teach something of spiritual importance... to people who are willing to understand the spiritual importance of the story ahead of the factual narrative, especially that all factual narratives are, because of human nature, edited.

So it is a spiritual myth in the judeo-christian system-context of communication-- which means that in this case it is truth. 

The problem I think people have with accepting it as a myth is the same problem people have accepting and understanding the differences in some books of scripture which are poetic  and symbolic vs. those which are not. And even in those which are not poetic,--where individuals teach in parables, with stories, and within their stories make reference to earlier stories ( which are to them significant spiritual myths) etc... These myths are packed full of spiritual information.... just like the story of Noah in question here.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 30, 2014)

I believe it was locally. First I'd like to say it doesn't change one's faith for either belief. Maybe it wasn't even a literal flood.
The word "world" can mean many things. What was the whole world as they knew?
The local vs whole would have to be based on whether Psalms 104:2-9 is explaining the creation story or the flood. 

Psalms 104:9
5He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever. 6You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters were standing above the mountains. 7But at your rebuke the waters fled, at the sound of your thunder they took to flight;8they flowed over the mountains, they went down into the valleys, to the place you assigned for them9Then you set a firm boundary for the seas, so they would never again cover the earth.


----------



## gemcgrew (Sep 30, 2014)

Hobbs, I have been down this same path. If my recognition serves me correctly, you are about 4 more thoughts away from rejecting Full Preterism.


----------



## hobbs27 (Sep 30, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Hobbs, I have been down this same path. If my recognition serves me correctly, you are about 4 more thoughts away from rejecting Full Preterism.



 We'll see.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 30, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Hobbs, I have been down this same path. If my recognition serves me correctly, you are about 4 more thoughts away from rejecting Full Preterism.




 This is good new indeed and a bit funny also.


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 30, 2014)

Huntinfool said:


> They just made a movie about this.  Go watch it.  It explains everything (including the little known stow-away on the boat that makes the story much more exciting).



What an awful movie to boot. Not even entertaining. 


Now...to the OP, what does the Bible say?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 30, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> What an awful movie to boot. Not even entertaining.



The rock lookin' critters were strange.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 30, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I think a local flood of their world makes much more sense, what do you think ...?




Whatever floats your boat.


----------



## hummerpoo (Sep 30, 2014)

After reading the OP my first thought was a term I picked up in my current occupation..."de minimis".

Then I had to look it up to be sure of the more general meaning; "lacking significance or importance :  so minor as to merit disregard".


----------



## hummerpoo (Sep 30, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Whatever floats your boat.



I hold you directly responsible for the coffee I spilled when I read that.


----------



## mtnwoman (Sep 30, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Two major problems I have to overcome to accept a global flood in the story of Noahs Ark.
> 
> 1. He preached the flood was coming and no one believed. Would the arriving animals from all parts of the world not been evidence to even the most critical thinkers of those times?
> 
> ...



Not sure about the 'final answer', but since I can dig up seashells in eastern norf kakalakki mtns, and my granddaughter digs up sea shells in Illinois, I would say global. Not sure, but would be interested in a study on it.

To carry on as usual, I never saw the purpose of the OT lit. about so and so begat so and so and they begat so and so......after a Bible study on Neh. 3 this past weekend, I realize the importance of some more of it. If anyone cares to read it, it portrays how people working together to build something, ie church, country, hood. All I had gotten out of it before, ok! ok! they built a wall... so and so's brother, uncle, cuz, son, etc. But it brought to mind, it takes a village to.......and then ding ding I got it. Whatever you're good at, you do and we all aren't good at everything....so we work together to make 'it' happen.

I'm good at riggin'....LOL....and organizing.


----------



## hobbs27 (Sep 30, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> Now...to the OP, what does the Bible say?



Gen. 6:17 "Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the *earth*, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the *earth* shall perish. 


earth in my strongs exhaustive for this verse is defined as:

776 in hebrew:  erets , eh'-rets ; from an unused root prob. mean. to be firm ; the earth ( at large, or partitively a land) :--x common, country, earth, field, ground, land, x nations, way, + wilderness, world,

 So, what does the bible say? I think it needs more study on the issue.


----------



## hobbs27 (Sep 30, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> After reading the OP my first thought was a term I picked up in my current occupation..."de minimis".
> 
> Then I had to look it up to be sure of the more general meaning; "lacking significance or importance :  so minor as to merit disregard".



 de minimis--- sounds like a refrigeration term. We call it de minimis releasis. 

 There is nothing de minimis in Gods word though.


----------



## hobbs27 (Sep 30, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Not sure about the 'final answer', but since I can dig up seashells in eastern norf kakalakki mtns, and my granddaughter digs up sea shells in Illinois, I would say global. Not sure, but would be interested in a study on it.
> 
> To carry on as usual, I never saw the purpose of the OT lit. about so and so begat so and so and they begat so and so......after a Bible study on Neh. 3 this past weekend, I realize the importance of some more of it. If anyone cares to read it, it portrays how people working together to build something, ie church, country, hood. All I had gotten out of it before, ok! ok! they built a wall... so and so's brother, uncle, cuz, son, etc. But it brought to mind, it takes a village to.......and then ding ding I got it. Whatever you're good at, you do and we all aren't good at everything....so we work together to make 'it' happen.
> 
> I'm good at riggin'....LOL....and organizing.



You've inspired me to revisit nehemiah. Its been a while. Thanks.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 1, 2014)

The problem if it is not global is that dominoes start to fall. All the following stories are then up for judgement. Meaning that God's motive of starting over was not accomplished. I am like you, I question things. It was easy when I did not.


----------



## gordon 2 (Oct 1, 2014)

About shipping efforts and the logistics of relocating indigene species off of Noah's ark. Don't discount continental drift, the success of subspecies and the effects of climate changes since Noah's ark.

This of course does not apply if you firmly believe that Noah nailed his ark sometime within the last six thousand yrs, and that continental drift, success of subspecies and the effects of climate changes are all liberal idea, purposely anti bible, direct from devil and secular society conspiracy theory. 


Peace.

PS. The collection of all these species onto the arc was simply a miracle, unless Noah's time was something like the 19th century mindset with today's game cameras, german metal work and Noah was a cowboy and Jim Shockey type,--but as a wildlife and cattle wisperer.


----------



## hummerpoo (Oct 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> There is nothing de minimis in Gods word though.



In which case there is no question concerning the flood. 

That's what I thought.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 1, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> The problem if it is not global is that dominoes start to fall. All the following stories are then up for judgement. Meaning that God's motive of starting over was not accomplished. I am like you, I question things. It was easy when I did not.



I don't quiet understand how the domino effect can be applied here. God's will was done regardless if the flood was global or local. On the global stance though it seems a bit out of character of God, not that I question His character, but it would be the only global destruction He ever made, when He has destroyed in the rest of the bible locally, such as Saddam, Gamorah, & Babylon.  

I don't question the word, but man's understanding. We've all seen some instances in our life where someone has totally misunderstood scripture, yet spoke of it as they were speaking on the authority of God.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 1, 2014)

Absolutely would have been a miracle Gordon.

It overwhelms the mind in how these animals would been collected, much less cared for.


----------



## gordon 2 (Oct 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Absolutely would have been a miracle Gordon.
> 
> It overwhelms the mind in how these animals would been collected, much less cared for.



Exactly! and to think there were no foreign workers!


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 1, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Exactly! and to think there were no foreign workers!





At home, my wife takes care of one dog, two cats, four goats, six chickens, a gold fish, a demanding six year old that takes gymnastics, and ballet, plus me. 
 She collects eggs everyday and milks two goats twice a day. I can't imagine the task of noahs sons wives taking care of all those animals, and that includes all the poop scooping.
 But if all the sudden we change the geographics to local, then it becomes somewhat comprehensible. It s not uncommon for biblical terms of world to mean local. It was proclaimed that the Gospel had gone out to the whole world in acts, and that men of every nation was in Jerusalem on the day of pentacost. It is IMO ignorant of us to think chiefs of every Indian nation was present on that day. It's one thing to defend scripture, which I do, but it's another to defend it without taking the time to study the context.


----------



## gordon 2 (Oct 1, 2014)

Two more thoughts and your no longer a Preterist! Be careful.


----------



## gordon 2 (Oct 1, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Two more thoughts and your no longer a Preterist! Be careful.



Also that Noah had grown children means to gordo that he had arthritis, gout and general kidney problems. He slept poorly, snored like a goat in rut, and was generaly not as energetic as he once was.  But to give credit to maturity, he probably knew how to crack a wip expertly. Maybe.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 1, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> I hold you directly responsible for the coffee I spilled when I read that.


----------



## rjcruiser (Oct 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> So, what does the bible say? I think it needs more study on the issue.



Well...what was the purpose of the flood?

To wipe out all of mankind  Gen 6:7

Could this be done with a local flood?

Well...what is your definition of local?  Who knows what the land mass looked like pre-flood.  Most agree that the continents were close together and drifted apart during the flood.

I do believe that all land was covered.  Why?  Gen 7:19 says that all the mountains under the "whole heaven" were covered.

So....if you try and say "Earth" means local land, the "whole heaven" term gives a little more explanation to that.



Now...to the question of the animals...getting to the ark...getting away from the ark...had to have been a supernatural occurrence.  But what is harder to believe, that 2 of every kind ended up on the ark? or that God created everything in 6 days? or that Jesus died and rose again?

There are some things that "science" just can't answer.  There is a certain amount of trust and faith that is required to believe many things....and the Bible requires some of that.  That being said, there are many things in the Bible that have been proven by science and by time, giving it validity.   Therefore, I don't see how one can pick and choose what they want to believe and what they don't want to believe.

Hope your questioning and your searching brings about a stronger faith in God and the work His Son did on the cross.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 1, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> There are some things that "science" just can't answer.  There is a certain amount of trust and faith that is required to believe many things....and the Bible requires some of that.  That being said, there are many things in the Bible that have been proven by science and by time, giving it validity.   Therefore, I don't see how one can pick and choose what they want to believe and what they don't want to believe.
> 
> Hope your questioning and your searching brings about a stronger faith in God and the work His Son did on the cross.



My faith is not in science but in the Lord.


----------



## formula1 (Oct 1, 2014)

*Re:*



rjcruiser said:


> There is a certain amount of trust and faith that is required to believe many things....and the Bible requires some of that.



God absolutely agrees with you and so do I!

Hebrews 11
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 1, 2014)

What about this that Art brought up earlier? Using scripture to answer scripture in psalms 104 parallel to the creation account in Genesis.

5 He established the earth upon its foundations,
So that it will not totter forever and ever.
6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
The waters were standing above the mountains.
7 At Your rebuke they fled,
At the sound of Your thunder they hurried away.
8 The mountains rose; the valleys sank down
To the place which You established for them.
9 You set a boundary that they may not pass over,
So that they will not return to cover the earth.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I don't quiet understand how the domino effect can be applied here. God's will was done regardless if the flood was global or local. On the global stance though it seems a bit out of character of God, not that I question His character, but it would be the only global destruction He ever made, when He has destroyed in the rest of the bible locally, such as Saddam, Gamorah, & Babylon.
> 
> I don't question the word, but man's understanding. We've all seen some instances in our life where someone has totally misunderstood scripture, yet spoke of it as they were speaking on the authority of God.


I consider that scripture fits best if it was global. We should also remember that rain did not exist before then. The earth  had a different atmosphere. Not sure if we had oceans before then. I suspect that we did not and that the extreme rain eventually filled the lower places resulting in oceans


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 2, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> I consider that scripture fits best if it was global



One question.  Why?


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 2, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> One question.  Why?



Because the purpose of the flood was to do away with man, to start over. If it was not global then God killed people for nothing. And he gave a sign of the rainbow, a big deal, not so big if his plan was not accomplished. A pair of every animal, yet man could have survived elsewhere, he did not need the Ark??? The whole of scripture points to the flood as if it were the only way. Jesus is the only way. The picture of the rapture, this idea comes from the flood. Paul says they will be "caught up". Scripture says they were "caught up" above the waters. Those who had faith, only Noahs family were saved, those "in" the Ark. Those "in" Christ Jesus will be saved. He is our Ark. I believe the bibles use of "in Christ" is taken from this very picture. We will be saved from the coming cleansing, when God purges the world. The first was with a flood and the present days are reserved for fire with Sodom as an example


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 2, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Because the purpose of the flood was to do away with man, to start over.



Nailed it.  End of discussion.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 2, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Because the purpose of the flood was to do away with man, to start over. If it was not global then God killed people for nothing.



 All mankind was local at this time according to scripture, so this argument doesnt hold water...pun intended. 




1gr8bldr said:


> And he gave a sign of the rainbow, a big deal, not so big if his plan was not accomplished. A pair of every animal, yet man could have survived elsewhere, he did not need the Ark??? The whole of scripture points to the flood as if it were the only way. Jesus is the only way.



There was three of some animals which were set aside for sacrifice but thats nit picking...Love to hear you on the side of Jesus here and I agree with the representation of Jesus as the ark...or the door to the ark works too. 





1gr8bldr said:


> The picture of the rapture, this idea comes from the flood. Paul says they will be "caught up". Scripture says they were "caught up" above the waters. Those who had faith, only Noahs family were saved, those "in" the Ark. Those "in" Christ Jesus will be saved. He is our Ark. I believe the bibles use of "in Christ" is taken from this very picture. We will be saved from the coming cleansing, when God purges the world. The first was with a flood and the present days are reserved for fire with Sodom as an example



You just put the rapture idea in to be mean didn't you? lol

I can see where it would be represented as a resurrection but the rapture isnt biblical and was created in 1830 by John Nelson Darby... The problem with the rapture theory " other than its not scriptural" is it happens before Christ returns..The resurrection of the dead however is at the time of Christs return...thats biblical...now I'd love to talk about the timing of that but its off topic to this subject.


Thanks for your answer.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 2, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> All mankind was local at this time according to scripture, so this argument doesnt hold water...pun intended.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I called it rapture although I don't consider it as the rapture version of modern day. Is see it simply as a deliverance of the coming wrath on the earth. Those "in" Christ will be saved, how shall we escape if we ignore such a.... I can't recall the remainder NIV exact so I will not try, but you know the point. It is hard to explain things when underlying assumptions are in our minds, like the left behind series. I don't think it will be anything like that. I agree that the modern version of rapture was created later, that in it's original form was simply salvation from the coming wrath.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 2, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> All mankind was local at this time according to scripture, so this argument doesnt hold water...pun intended.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did not know that a theory was that all mankind were local at that time. Interesting. I can't see how it would take so long for the waters to receed if only local. Sometimes I wonder if it were all spiritual. Jesus is the ark, he is also the one whom the dove [HS, wisdom] remained on when sent out, finding no place to land. John said I know it is him because God told me it would be the one on whom you see the dove "remain".


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 2, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> I did not know that a theory was that all mankind were local at that time. Interesting. I can't see how it would take so long for the waters to receed if only local. Sometimes I wonder if it were all spiritual. Jesus is the ark, he is also the one whom the dove [HS, wisdom] remained on when sent out, finding no place to land. John said I know it is him because God told me it would be the one on whom you see the dove "remain".



I also wonder if it wasnt spiritual...we have moses giving an account of something that happened way before his time...shown to him by the spirit? perhaps.

I appreciate your input because I know you're a thinker and I've learned a lot from you. Let me attempt to show you something I've learned from studying a topic you have said you have no interest in. So look at this scripture..tell me honestly after reading it, if the days of noah, the days of lot, and the days of the coming of the son of man...ie jerusalem 70 ad .. are not similar and appear to be more localized...that is if you consider the days of judgement as 70 ad





Luke 17: 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.


 So the days of noe and the days of Lot were alike...I dont believe either was global destruction and I dont believe there is ever to be a global destruction for Ephesians 3:21

 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 2, 2014)

Does the flood show anything as far as where Jews or Gentiles come from? Was Noah Jew or Gentile? 
Also what about giants before and after the flood? 
Did the flood destroy the whole world? What did the flood really destroy?


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 3, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I also wonder if it wasnt spiritual...we have moses giving an account of something that happened way before his time...shown to him by the spirit? perhaps.
> 
> I appreciate your input because I know you're a thinker and I've learned a lot from you. Let me attempt to show you something I've learned from studying a topic you have said you have no interest in. So look at this scripture..tell me honestly after reading it, if the days of noah, the days of lot, and the days of the coming of the son of man...ie jerusalem 70 ad .. are not similar and appear to be more localized...that is if you consider the days of judgement as 70 ad
> 
> ...


I started typing those connections last night but I erased it when I saw It was breaking down a bit when I compared the two witnesses from revelation to the two angels that warned Lot. I really enjoy pondering things like the connections you pointed out.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 3, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I also wonder if it wasnt spiritual...we have moses giving an account of something that happened way before his time...shown to him by the spirit? perhaps.
> 
> I appreciate your input because I know you're a thinker and I've learned a lot from you. Let me attempt to show you something I've learned from studying a topic you have said you have no interest in. So look at this scripture..tell me honestly after reading it, if the days of noah, the days of lot, and the days of the coming of the son of man...ie jerusalem 70 ad .. are not similar and appear to be more localized...that is if you consider the days of judgement as 70 ad
> 
> ...


This topic, so I may better understand, what is it?


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 3, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> This topic, so I may better understand, what is it?



Eschatology.  This is about God's judgement, and how no matter how severe, His grace has kept mankind on earth.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 3, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does the flood show anything as far as where Jews or Gentiles come from? Was Noah Jew or Gentile?
> Also what about giants before and after the flood?
> Did the flood destroy the whole world? What did the flood really destroy?



Jews are from Abraham, I think he came from an area in what is modern day Iraq. 

Noah being before Abraham couldn't have been Jew, and I'm not certain right now exactly how a gentile would be defined.

According to the non canonical books of Enoch, the giants were offspring of the Angels and women they took as wives. ( Men of God took daughters of man as wives). Not only did these Angels taint the human DNA, but they were teaching humans things God wasn't ready for us to know, and it angered him.

He bound the Angels under the earth in tarsarus till the day of judgement, and the flood came to destroy the celestial bloodline , and the knowledge of mysteries God was not ready for man to know. The Angels had to watch their children drown while bound.....But as I wrote this is from non canonical writings so reader beware.


----------



## rjcruiser (Oct 3, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does the flood show anything as far as where Jews or Gentiles come from? Was Noah Jew or Gentile?
> Also what about giants before and after the flood?
> Did the flood destroy the whole world? What did the flood really destroy?



Noah was human.  There weren't races at the time....they were all the same race.  The different races came from Noahs sons. They were to disperse after the flood and they didn't so then we have the tower of babel and languages created and forced upon man.  The Jews came from Shem.....Semites.  thats why those who hate Jews are called anti-Semitic. 

Giants...well...I think they were genetic. .like today.  We have tall people. .we have short people. .some are genetic mutation.  Some will say it was due to the angels coming down to earth, but I don't really think so. 

I believe the flood destroyed the whole world.  Now I do believe that the world then looked totally different than today.  Possibly one giant land mass with seas and oceans surrounding it. 

The flood changed everything.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 3, 2014)

If the flood was given to show parallels to Jesus and salvation, what comparisons can we make? Saved by water? Noah and his family were saved by the water of the flood. God chose Noah so God can choose us. What criteria did God use to choose Noah? Does he use the same criteria to choose us? Was the ark sent to save the whole world? Was the flood sent to destroy the whole world? Is it really about God's coming judgement even though we live under a different covenant? What about the covenant of grace?
How does it all fit together?


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 3, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> How does it all fit together?



We serve an awesome God!


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 3, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> If the flood was given to show parallels to Jesus and salvation, what comparisons can we make? Saved by water? Noah and his family were saved by the water of the flood. God chose Noah so God can choose us. What criteria did God use to choose Noah? Does he use the same criteria to choose us? Was the ark sent to save the whole world? Was the flood sent to destroy the whole world? Is it really about God's coming judgement even though we live under a different covenant? What about the covenant of grace?
> How does it all fit together?


Not all are under grace, only those whom have taken hold of the salvation offered. Noah family was not saved by the water, they were delivered from it. In that day, the earth was renewed by the destruction of water. The earth will one day be renewed by destruction of fire. Like the movie Lion King, the example being the plants. LOL.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 3, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Eschatology.  This is about God's judgement, and how no matter how severe, His grace has kept mankind on earth.


Study of the end times, Sometime, if you have time, give me a brief look at what happens. I get lost in the 70ad part


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 3, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does the flood show anything as far as where Jews or Gentiles come from? Was Noah Jew or Gentile?
> Also what about giants before and after the flood?
> Did the flood destroy the whole world? What did the flood really destroy?


I find it strange that the bible does speak of the giants/nepulm before and after the flood. I assumed the flood killed them all????


----------



## rjcruiser (Oct 3, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> If the flood was given to show parallels to Jesus and salvation, what comparisons can we make? Saved by water? Noah and his family were saved by the water of the flood. God chose Noah so God can choose us. What criteria did God use to choose Noah? Does he use the same criteria to choose us? Was the ark sent to save the whole world? Was the flood sent to destroy the whole world? Is it really about God's coming judgement even though we live under a different covenant? What about the covenant of grace?
> How does it all fit together?



God chose Noah....just as He chooses us.

That being said, all those who didn't get on the boat had the opportunity.  They chose to mock God.

I think it is an excellent illustration of God's sovereign power in predestination and the responsibility that man has.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 3, 2014)

This has turned into a great thread. I enjoy reading all the questions and the answers to those questions.  Y'all know I don't agree with all the answers, but I do agree that we all have had the same questions at some point in our lives. The Word tells us we won't know the answers until we get 'there'....but it's such a blessing to me that no matter how we 'translate/understand it'....we will ALL be there (all believers I mean of course).


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 4, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> Noah was human.  There weren't races at the time....they were all the same race.  The different races came from Noahs sons. They were to disperse after the flood and they didn't so then we have the tower of babel and languages created and forced upon man.  The Jews came from Shem.....Semites.  thats why those who hate Jews are called anti-Semitic.
> 
> Giants...well...I think they were genetic. .like today.  We have tall people. .we have short people. .some are genetic mutation.  Some will say it was due to the angels coming down to earth, but I don't really think so.
> 
> ...



Noah was to bring "two of every kind." Was this just animals and not the different races?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 4, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Not all are under grace, only those whom have taken hold of the salvation offered. Noah family was not saved by the water, they were delivered from it. In that day, the earth was renewed by the destruction of water. The earth will one day be renewed by destruction of fire. Like the movie Lion King, the example being the plants. LOL.



I guess it depends on one's prospective but the water did save them. The Ark saved them from the wrath of God. They were delivered by the water from God's destruction. The Ark was the saving vessel.
Why was Noah chosen? God is not a respecter of man. None are righteous enough. Salvation by grace has nothing to do with living a certain way prior to being chosen.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 4, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> God chose Noah....just as He chooses us.
> 
> That being said, all those who didn't get on the boat had the opportunity.  They chose to mock God.
> 
> I think it is an excellent illustration of God's sovereign power in predestination and the responsibility that man has.



I think you just contradicted yourself. All of those totally depraved individuals not chosen by God had the opportunity?

Genesis 6:5
And God seeing that the wickedness of men was great on the earth, and that all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil at all times.

And yet Noah and his family for some strange reason weren't totally depraved. Unless God had already called them to be righteous enough to be elected.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 4, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think you just contradicted yourself. All of those totally depraved individuals not chosen by God had the opportunity?
> 
> Genesis 6:5
> And God seeing that the wickedness of men was great on the earth, and that all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil at all times.
> ...



He's right. Noah preached to them, but they heeded not. Noah , just like Abraham for Lot, pleaded with God that others may be spared from the wrath. They heard the warnings. 

Luke 17 says the days of the son of man was to be like the days of noe and the days of lot.
Jesus gave them the signs of His coming
 Told them to come down off their rooftop ( people hung out on their flat rooftops in those days, not so much these). He told them to flee and not look back, that's why zero Christians were killed when Christ came back, yet 1.1 million Jews did.....
 Remember Lots wife.


----------



## gordon 2 (Oct 4, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Noah was to bring "two of every kind." Was this just animals and not the different races?


----------



## rjcruiser (Oct 4, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Noah was to bring "two of every kind." Was this just animals and not the different races?



Just the animals.  I don't think races really started until after the tower of babel. 



hobbs27 said:


> He's right. Noah preached to them, but they heeded not. Noah , just like Abraham for Lot, pleaded with God that others may be spared from the wrath. They heard the warnings.
> 
> Luke 17 says the days of the son of man was to be like the days of noe and the days of lot.
> Jesus gave them the signs of His coming
> ...



Yup.  It's not really something that I dont completely understand. ..God chose Noah and his family. No one else was chosen. That being said, they all heard the message and rejected it.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 4, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Study of the end times, Sometime, if you have time, give me a brief look at what happens. I get lost in the 70ad part



70ad was Christ's coming according to Matthew 24. I also believe according to Revelation.
 Since you are a studier, I'm going to point you to scripture that blatantly shows the resurrection of the dead was the hope of Israel, not the Church.

 First keep this in mind, through Adam came death, through Christ we have eternal life. The Old Covenant had death....The New Covenant knows eternal life.
Acts 24-26
Acts 24:21.  Paul is on trial for the resurrection preaching he's been doing. 

Acts 26: 6-8 Paul makes the claim the resurrection is the hope of Israel.

My friend..The resurrection has come and gone. It's scripture, the end of the world/ age has come and gone. We live in the new world/age.....Thessalonians 4 said the dead would be raised first, then those left would be raised caught up to meet them....that didn't mean at that moment but at the end of their physical life we are caught up to be with those that were resurrected from the grave/Hades which Jesus has emptied....

We all have a bible. I challenge anyone to show where the resurrection was to happen to the church and not to the dead of old covenant Israel...It was their promise, ours is eternal life. Praise God!!!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 4, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> Just the animals.  I don't think races really started until after the tower of babel.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup.  It's not really something that I dont completely understand. ..God chose Noah and his family. No one else was chosen. That being said, they all heard the message and rejected it.



I guess your Reformed beliefs don't include man being totally depraved and God electing only certain individuals?
These people that are constantly being warned actually do have a choice? People today actually have a choice? People are chosen for their righteousness? 

Could it be that before the Cross, individuals were chosen by their righteousness but not after?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 4, 2014)

Noah wasn't a Jew so the Ark was salvation for only the Gentiles. Later when the Jew mutated from Noah's offspring, salvation was only for the Jew. Later when the Jew neglected Jesus/Ark, salvation was again offered to the Gentile by grafting us to the Jewish line?

I wonder if all mutations stopped on the Ark to include the humans and then started mutating again after the Ark?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 4, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> 70ad was Christ's coming according to Matthew 24. I also believe according to Revelation.
> Since you are a studier, I'm going to point you to scripture that blatantly shows the resurrection of the dead was the hope of Israel, not the Church.
> 
> First keep this in mind, through Adam came death, through Christ we have eternal life. The Old Covenant had death....The New Covenant knows eternal life.
> ...



Would you say the warnings are finally over? The warnings related to the prevalent flood, the warnings to the people of Sodom, etc. were all related to the warnings of the destruction of Jerusalem? Can people finally quit worrying or at least wondering about another destruction?
All of these "destruction" events were local or regional and were similar and are now over?

And even though all of the destruction events were local and predicted, the individuals had a choice in not being destroyed? Even the inhabitants of Jerusalem? Prophesied by the prophets telling us what God foretold, these people had choices? They could have heeded the warnings? They weren't blinded or depraved or something? Maybe God was using his foreknowledge and knew beforehand they wouldn't choose salvation. They had a choice though!


----------



## gordon 2 (Oct 4, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would you say the warnings are finally over? The warnings related to the prevalent flood, the warnings to the people of Sodom, etc. were all related to the warnings of the destruction of Jerusalem? Can people finally quit worrying or at least wondering about another destruction.
> All of these "destruction" events were local or regional and were similar and are now over?



Depending on your outlook, it is not over or it is. It is my understanding that presently the rain falls on everyone equally ( figure of speech), however....there will be a time when this is no more.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 4, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


>



And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark to keep them alive with you. They shall be male and female.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 4, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Depending on your outlook, it is not over or it is. It is my understanding that presently the rain falls on everyone equally ( figure of speech), however....there will be a time when this is no more.



After the Cross, salvation has been granted to all who will receive it or to all who is suppose to receive it, or it will be. Why have another future destruction? What purpose could it possibly have?


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 4, 2014)

Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 4, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would you say the warnings are finally over? The warnings related to the prevalent flood, the warnings to the people of Sodom, etc. were all related to the warnings of the destruction of Jerusalem? Can people finally quit worrying or at least wondering about another destruction?
> All of these "destruction" events were local or regional and were similar and are now over?
> 
> And even though all of the destruction events were local and predicted, the individuals had a choice in not being destroyed? Even the inhabitants of Jerusalem? Prophesied by the prophets telling us what God foretold, these people had choices? They could have heeded the warnings? They weren't blinded or depraved on something? Maybe God was using his foreknowledge and knew beforehand they wouldn't choose salvation. They had a choice though!



There's always going to be terrible things happening on earth, but as far as scripture goes, there is no more wrath to rain down on us from God, this is the age of grace.

I don't take a lot of issue with free will / predestination differences. I think there's room for both. God knew in the beginning, but man doesn't know. To an individual they have to work it out, God knew it all along. Just as those that do not accept Him today, will perish knowing they turned down God, and God knew it all along.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 4, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> After the Cross, salvation has been granted to all who will receive it or to all who is suppose to receive it, or it will be. Why have another future destruction? What purpose could it possibly have?



Noah warned everyone of destruction, they did not believe him...but what  God said came to pass.  We received another chance...and God proved Himself to exist thru physically showing Himself to us thru something that we could actually 'see', Jesus Christ, with scripture 'easier' for us to believe in.   The OT tells us there would be a saviour and that comes to pass. No more chances if we do not believe now, then comes Revelations...a promise of destruction just like the flood. The earth was destroyed once to get rid of all the evil at that time, there is still evil on earth, so it will be destroyed again and the meek shall INHERIT the earth.
JMHO


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 4, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Noah warned everyone of destruction, they did not believe him...but what  God said came to pass.  We received another chance...and God proved Himself to exist thru physically showing Himself to us thru something that we could actually 'see', Jesus Christ, with scripture 'easier' for us to believe in.   The OT tells us there would be a savior and that comes to pass. No more chances if we do not believe now, then comes Revelations...a promise of destruction just like the flood. The earth was destroyed once to get rid of all the evil at that time, there is still evil on earth, so it will be destroyed again and the meek shall INHERIT the earth.
> JMHO




I'm trying to see the relation between the flood, evil, righteousness, and depravity. True, evil does still exists. True, the lost are still depraved. 
Why was Noah elected on his righteousness if righteousness isn't a precept for salvation for today's sinners?
We go around teaching that none are righteous and thus need a savior. We are all depraved until our eyes are opened by God.  This is a basic concept of Christianity.
Yet somehow I must fit the Flood and destruction into the basic Christian concept. 
The flood destroyed the unrighteous yet Jesus died for the unrighteous. None are righteous and thus need God's grace in the form of Jesus. 
I don't see how the flood or the story of Lot/Sodom is teaching me about the grace concept. It appears to be teaching me about overcoming depravity or evilness.
It goes totally against all being depraved/evil/unrighteous and needing a savior.
I'm trying to see the connection to grace. If it is foretelling of Jesus as the Ark, where is grace in this story? Where is the freewill of individuals seeking Jesus/Ark in the flood story? I can't find it.
I can't see why the earth needs to be destroyed again or even if it was destroyed in the first place. Why does evil need to be destroyed if none are righteous and all are in need of salvation? 
The person with anger in his heart is just as evil as the murderer. The person with lust in his heart is just as evil as the adulterer. We are all just as bad.
As such were some of you, but you were washed.
Why did the earth need to be destroyed? Why will it need to be destroyed again? I don't understand this concept as it relates to Grace and the washing of our sins.


----------



## gordon 2 (Oct 5, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm trying to see the relation between the flood, evil, righteousness, and depravity. True, evil does still exists. True, the lost are still depraved.
> Why was Noah elected on his righteousness if righteousness isn't a precept for salvation for today's sinners?
> We go around teaching that none are righteous and thus need a savior. We are all depraved until our eyes are opened by God.  This is a basic concept of Christianity.
> Yet somehow I must fit the Flood and destruction into the basic Christian concept.
> ...



Just as the Hebrews were nutured to progressively know a finer relationship with God, so are we as christians being nurtured, perhaps. What we don't understand as a+b+c= spiritual x, we might better understand  spiritual x simply for faith.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 5, 2014)

Maybe the "tie" is the water. The "water" represents the washing.
The new beginning.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 5, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe the "tie" is the water. The "water" represents the washing.
> The new beginning.


It is a starting over. Some day, God will destroy everything and start new again. The picture is that divine beings became one with man creating a half man, half divine race. Not God's intention. God reset his plan by destruction by water.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 5, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> It is a starting over. Some day, God will destroy everything and start new again. The picture is that divine beings became one with man creating a half man, half divine race. Not God's intention. God reset his plan by destruction by water.



I thought this too, but Ive continued studying, and have some problems with my old thoughts.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 

“There were giants in the earth in those days” obviously was referring to the time period before the Flood. The giants were resulted from the union of daughters of men and the sons of God. The “daughters of men” were of human origin, but the “sons of God” were unlikely human but possibly were fallen angelic beings (as referenced by Peter in 2Pet2:4-5) in order to produce "freakish" babies that grew up into giants. So, we were told that there were giants before the flood. 

But note that it also said, “and also after that”, meaning that after the Flood, there were also giants still living! But, if all the giants were destroyed in the flood, where did those giants come from after the flood? And indeed, there were mentions of giants even to the time of Moses and Joshua in Deut 9:2 and in Num 13:33, which might point to their continued existence after the flood. 

Maybe we just dont understand the language used in the flood and other apacolyptical events!



*********WARNING***********

 Do Not Watch This Video Unless You Are Prepared To Better Understand The Bible!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 5, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> It is a starting over. Some day, God will destroy everything and start new again. The picture is that divine beings became one with man creating a half man, half divine race. Not God's intention. God reset his plan by destruction by water.



If that was the reason then how is that teaching us anything about the Ark being Jesus? What similarities are there between the flood story and God's grace & Jesus?
How does the flood story teach of free will? How is the flood story foretelling of salvation for the sinner on the street?
We now have salvation, what good would another destruction serve? Didn't our starting over begin with being born again? 
If God masterminded the flood plan to show us an example of Jesus coming as our Ark, I must say it was a little extreme. I must say I don't see the example.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 5, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> If that was the reason then how is that teaching us anything about the Ark being Jesus? What similarities are there between the flood story and God's grace & Jesus?
> How does the flood story teach of free will? How is the flood story foretelling of salvation for the sinner on the street?
> We now have salvation, what good would another destruction serve? Didn't our starting over begin with being born again?
> If God masterminded the flood plan to show us an example of Jesus coming as our Ark, I must say it was a little extreme. I must say I don't see the example.


The ark is likened to the socalled rapture. They were saved by the ark. We are saved by Jesus. The ark story has nothing to do with grace. It is all to do with the wrath of God. We, emphasis on we, those who are saved have no fear of the coming wrath because we are "in" Christ. You said "we now have salvation, what good would another destruction do". It would cleanse the earth. Destroy the ungodly. John 15;6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and whithers. Such branches are thrown in the fire and burned


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 5, 2014)

Anyone want to answer this one? The Tower of Babel was built around the time of Peleg 101 years after the flood.
 Where did all these people come from if the flood was global?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 5, 2014)

Was the flood  necessary to save the earth from utter ruination or for judgement? What did it clean the earth from that we don't still have? We still have Satan, sin, evil, giants, etc. Why was the whole world to include animals judged?
If it has something to do with wrath, then we shouldn't compare it to salvation by grace. It is true that during Noah's time they were not living during the period of grace that we are living under. I get that but I don't see the relation to God's wrath, destruction, and the Ark as how it relates to present day salvation by grace.
I can see it foretelling of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD when Jesus said his return would be like in the time of Noah. He was relating to people working in the field and getting married, oblivious to his return.
I can't see it relating to a future worldly destruction. We are now living in the period of grace. Why would God again destroy the whole world? I don't believe he will but then I don't believe he did in the first place. Mainly because it wasn't necessary. It didn't prove anything. It didn't do anything other than shadow the destruction of Jerusalem. 
The flood wasn't of the whole earth/world as we think of the whole earth/world.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 5, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Anyone want to answer this one? The Tower of Babel was built around the time of Peleg 101 years after the flood.
> Where did all these people come from if the flood was global?



I jokingly hinted around with a response of mutations from Noah's offspring and two of every kind of every flesh.
That's a lot of mutations in 101 years!


----------



## gordon 2 (Oct 5, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Anyone want to answer this one? The Tower of Babel was built around the time of Peleg 101 years after the flood.
> Where did all these people come from if the flood was global?



Foreign, off shore, workers?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 5, 2014)

I feel better reading this article by Spurgeon where God chose Noah based on his faith, fear, and obedience rather than just his righteousness.
It starts with Hebrews 11:7:
"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/2147.HTM


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 5, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> The ark is likened to the socalled rapture. They were saved by the ark. We are saved by Jesus. The ark story has nothing to do with grace. It is all to do with the wrath of God. We, emphasis on we, those who are saved have no fear of the coming wrath because we are "in" Christ. You said "we now have salvation, what good would another destruction do". It would cleanse the earth. Destroy the ungodly. John 15;6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and whithers. Such branches are thrown in the fire and burned



Why can't God take care of his wrath or salvation during our individual physical deaths? Each of us who have salvation will go to Heaven and the withered branches will be burned in the fire if ungodly. Don't most Christians believe this is the way it happens anyway? Most see it happening on a daily basis as people die. What purpose would it serve for God to destroy the Earth with a future destruction? His wrath will be met in the spiritual world when individuals die.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 5, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why was Noah elected on his righteousness if righteousness isn't a precept for salvation for today's sinners?
> We go around teaching that none are righteous and thus need a savior. We are all depraved until our eyes are opened by God.  This is a basic concept of Christianity.
> Yet somehow I must fit the Flood and destruction into the basic Christian concept.
> The flood destroyed the unrighteous yet Jesus died for the unrighteous. None are righteous and thus need God's grace in the form of Jesus.



Basically, these are the questions I tried to cover in my post that you are responding to.

This is one of the reasons that I don't believe in the 'elect doctrine'.   I believe God chooses/elects some people to do great things in His name. Like Jonah, Jeremiah, Paul/Saul, David, Noah, etc. But I do believe God is all knowing and knows who will choose everything they will choose to do. And He also chooses for none to perish, but we know some who will perish, right? And that's why the disciples preached the gospel, same thing we are called to do..to spread the Living Word so that all will be saved.

I'm not sure you can fit the story of the flood into Christianly exactly.  No one then had the blood of Christ to forgive them for their sins. The only way I fit it in is the flood, (saved/born of water) and the blood saving us thru God's grace on us. Why would He send His  Son, Jesus, to die, if He wanted to pick and choose us? I believe we are all called by Jesus (He is our proof) He stands at the door (our hearts) only we can let Him in....that goes for everyone.  In the OT they believed by faith only and not by sight...except those given a 'vision' by God to do His will. Our eyes have been opened and now we have Jesus, we are saved now thru believing in Him (John 3:16)


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 5, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> The ark is likened to the socalled rapture. They were saved by the ark. We are saved by Jesus. The ark story has nothing to do with grace. It is all to do with the wrath of God. We, emphasis on we, those who are saved have no fear of the coming wrath because we are "in" Christ. You said "we now have salvation, what good would another destruction do". It would cleanse the earth. Destroy the ungodly. John 15;6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and whithers. Such branches are thrown in the fire and burned



I totally agree.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 5, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I feel better reading this article by Spurgeon where God chose Noah based on his faith, fear, and obedience rather than just his righteousness.
> It starts with Hebrews 11:7:
> "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."



Totally agree!

Mr Art, you're good at seeking and finding.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why can't God take care of his wrath or salvation during our individual physical deaths? Each of us who have salvation will go to Heaven and the withered branches will be burned in the fire if ungodly. Don't most Christians believe this is the way it happens anyway? Most see it happening on a daily basis as people die. What purpose would it serve for God to destroy the Earth with a future destruction? His wrath will be met in the spiritual world when individuals die.



This is why I sort of doubt that we go instantly to our eternity. I know it says to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord, but if we die, we sleep, our next awareness/consciousness, whether it be in a second or in a thousand years, we will be with the Lord.  We won't know of any 'time' in between.  And that's why the Word says, those who are dead in Christ shall rise first and then those who are alive will be caught up (rapture) will rise to meet Christ in the air.

Or, here's another thought I've also had.  If we are saved our spirits go to heaven immediately.  Then at the end when the final judgement comes we will rejoin our bodies that will be glorified and our 'souls' will be judged on our good and bad. 

I believe our spirit is seperate than our souls, our spirit is what does or doesn't accept Christ. Our souls are our personalities which causes us to sin or not. My spirit is always on Christ, but my soul is not, that's why I continue to stumble and fall. For the Word of God is sharper than any two edged sword, dividing asunder our soul and spirit. 

We are either Christ spirited or evil spirited. Our soul can be good or bad, but our belief in Christ is what saves us. He is faithful to forgive us if we believe He will, no matter how good or bad we are.  I want more and more and more of the spirit of Christ in me to control the me in me, my soul.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 6, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Foreign, off shore, workers?



Flown in from another planet..maybe?


----------



## gemcgrew (Oct 6, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> The ark story has nothing to do with grace.


Try telling that to all for whom the ark was designed.


----------



## Israel (Oct 6, 2014)

In Hebrew, Noah is grace spelled in reverse.

"Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."
Ourselves reversed, re-versed, re-written, made new.

But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 6, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> This is why I sort of doubt that we go instantly to our eternity. I know it says to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord, but if we die, we sleep, our next awareness/consciousness, whether it be in a second or in a thousand years, we will be with the Lord.  We won't know of any 'time' in between.  And that's why the Word says, those who are dead in Christ shall rise first and then those who are alive will be caught up (rapture) will rise to meet Christ in the air.
> 
> Or, here's another thought I've also had.  If we are saved our spirits go to heaven immediately.  Then at the end when the final judgement comes we will rejoin our bodies that will be glorified and our 'souls' will be judged on our good and bad.
> 
> ...



Everlasting life doesn't have to be so complicated.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:  «--

 Old Testament saints like Job that knew his redeemer liveth,  and David that knew he would raise again for Christ would make a way.

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believeth thou this?

 I believe! I believe!  I will never die, never will I sleep, never will I be in a grave, but one day God will free this everlasting soul that has been born of the spirit from this sinful flesh and I will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye and be in His presence.

For we are the ones in which are alive and remain after the ones that slept( OT saints) were raised, now we await our own personal journey of being caught up with them. Praise be to God!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 6, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Totally agree!
> 
> Mr Art, you're good at seeking and finding.



Thanks, It was good to understand why Noah was chosen. 
I once looked at soul sleep as the answer. I have tried to see the end being in the future with an actual physical resurrection. 
Maybe after death everything is just spiritual. If this is true, we won't be returning from Heaven or He11 for a body. Maybe resurrections are at the time of our individual death and Jesus won't be returning again for a physical reign.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 6, 2014)

Hobbs, I was reading the comparison of Jesus' return in Matthew and read Gill's Expo where the one taken from the field and mill were taken by the Roman Army instead of the rapture. I guess Gill was some form of a Preterist.

Matthew 24:36-42
36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38"For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40"Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41"Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.42"Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

If this is for a future generation, why will they need to be on alert? 
If we go to Heaven when we die, why does Jesus need to return to take us to our heavenly home? If Heaven is spiritual, why will we return for an un-needed body?


----------



## rjcruiser (Oct 6, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I guess your Reformed beliefs don't include man being totally depraved and God electing only certain individuals?
> These people that are constantly being warned actually do have a choice? People today actually have a choice? People are chosen for their righteousness?
> 
> Could it be that before the Cross, individuals were chosen by their righteousness but not after?



No...still a predestination/election guy here 

That being said, I don't know any non-Christian who wanted to be a Christian and God wouldn't let them. 



hobbs27 said:


> Anyone want to answer this one? The Tower of Babel was built around the time of Peleg 101 years after the flood.
> Where did all these people come from if the flood was global?



Noah and his descendents.  People can procreate very very quickly.  3 sons...3 wives...at 15 years per generation, 6-7 generations in 101 years.  If each family adds 5 per generation (I think 5 is generous), very quickly can population explode.

15 in generation 1
75 in generation 2
375 in generation 3
1,875 in generation 4
9,375 in generation 5
46,875 in generation 6
234,375 in generation 7


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 6, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, I was reading the comparison of Jesus' return in Matthew and read Gill's Expo where the one taken from the field and mill were taken by the Roman Army instead of the rapture. I guess Gill was some form of a Preterist.
> 
> Matthew 24:36-42
> 36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38"For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40"Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41"Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.42"Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
> ...



May be.

Do we know many women that grind on a wheel these days? Of course this is not in our future, but in our past.

Btw, flesh and bones cannot inherit the kingdom of God , so let's examine how ridiculous the idea is of retrieving the physical body.
1. You would die , your physical body in the grave and spiritual in heaven.
2. You come back to retrieve your physical body.
3. Then you go back to heaven where you shed the physical body and receive a new glorified body.

All this back and forth just to make Jesus words of eternal life fit in a futurist dispensational theory of a rapture.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 6, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> Noah and his descendents.  People can procreate very very quickly.  3 sons...3 wives...at 15 years per generation, 6-7 generations in 101 years.  If each family adds 5 per generation (I think 5 is generous), very quickly can population explode.
> 
> 15 in generation 1
> 75 in generation 2
> ...



Wow, thanks for solving that problem, now I know who to go to when I need to understand compounded interest rates.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> May be.
> 
> Do we know many women that grind on a wheel these days? Of course this is not in our future, but in our past.
> 
> ...



So we can totally dismiss revelations? Good, because I can't quite grasp it anyway. People in Noah's age dismissed the flood, the coming disaster....so we can also dismiss revelations, the rapture, coming disaster and destruction of  
the earth? Christ will not then return with His saints to rejoin bone to bone, marrow to marrow, and flesh to flesh to fight in a battle as a mighty battle?


3. Didn't Jesus retrieve His physical body? It was missing, where did it go? Aren't we suppose to go thru the same process as Christ?


----------



## rjcruiser (Oct 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Wow, thanks for solving that problem, now I know who to go to when I need to understand compounded interest rates.



 is it that obvious that I'm a cpa?

talking about compounding interest....love a quote from one of the Forbes 400 folks..."8th wonder of the world...compounding interest."


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 6, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> So we can totally dismiss revelations? Good, because I can't quite grasp it anyway. People in Noah's age dismissed the flood, the coming disaster....so we can also dismiss revelations, the rapture, coming disaster and destruction of
> the earth? Christ will not then return with His saints to rejoin bone to bone, marrow to marrow, and flesh to flesh to fight in a battle as a mighty battle?
> 
> 
> 3. Didn't Jesus retrieve His physical body? It was missing, where did it go? Aren't we suppose to go thru the same process as Christ?



Let's not dismiss Revelation, but put it in its proper prospective. A big part of it is John's answer to the Olivet discourse, since his Gospel has it missing.
  First verse, things which MUST shortly come to pass.

I think Jesus was in His physical body when they found an empty tomb. He only was afforded that, so others may know the fulfillment of OT prophecy and that surely He is the Son of God.

Same process? I don't think so.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 24:36-42
> 36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38"For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40"Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41"Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.42"Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
> 
> If this is for a future generation, why will they need to be on alert?
> If we go to Heaven when we die, why does Jesus need to return to take us to our heavenly home? If Heaven is spiritual, why will we return for an un-needed body?



Great points Art.  

Who are the dead in Christ? Those that believed in Christ? Are those in Christ now that are alive be 'caught up' or will our flesh be killed physically first before we can go. It can't be both ways. If our spirit is just taken, then our bodies will drop like a rock and how will 'all the earth' see this?

For me, I have to believe in the entire Bible, not pick and choose what fits into my doctrine.....ie JW's, Mormons, Muslims, etc etc. 

 I was raised Baptist and that doctrine possibly was set upon me by God, because He knew that's the doctrine I could grasp, so perhaps He chose that for me, as a believer in Christ I mean.  I believe, (not understand however) that the entire Word of God is truth and will be fulfilled, I can't take certain scriptures from it's full context and use it to prove points. All of it fits together somehow and we will never understand it....until. Just because I was raised Baptist doesn't mean that I or any other Baptist comprehend or can explain why, nor do I believe that Baptists are the only ones who are right.  Totally  I do not believe everything that I have been taught is totally right and the ONLY way to believe. 

I lean a little towards God taking the 'saints' that believed in Him in the OT, were taken straight to heaven, their spirits I mean, like so many of the tribes of Israel who are the 144, 000 saints that will return as witnesses with Christ. Witnesses that have seen God because they have been with Him....ie swing low sweet Chariot.  The Law was fulfilled in Christ as He said.  People in the OT were foretold of a coming Saviour. Some didn't believe, some that did didn't understand or know how that would happen but some still obviously believed by faith....by a flood, really?? are you serious? Yet Noah still built an ark, because he was chosen by God for a mission.

 I don't understand revelations but I believe it. I don't exactly know how it will happen.....ie if there will be locusts or airplanes...it was written in terms that the writer understood at the time.  I believe by faith and 'sight' now, I can grasp the past because it has already happened.  I have to believe in the future because it has not happened yet, I can only believe by faith that the entire Bible is the Living Word of God and do not believe that one jot or tittle can be changed into something else.  I believe it all in faith, some of it with little understanding, mostly future events.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Let's not dismiss Revelation, but put it in its proper prospective. A big part of it is John's answer to the Olivet discourse, since his Gospel has it missing.
> First verse, things which MUST shortly come to pass.* I understand that a day could be a thousand years to God.*
> 
> I think Jesus was in His physical body when they found an empty tomb. He only was afforded that, so others may know the fulfillment of OT prophecy and that surely He is the Son of God.*We now believe by 'sight'*
> ...



So all who did believe in Christ and were alive, descended into the air with Him for all the world to see?  We know many dead were resurrected with Him, they were also seen by witnesses that saw their physical bodies. If so perhaps we can say that the being 'caught up/raptured' has already happened.....if it didn't happen then, it was written that it would happen...when did that happen? unless we dismiss that part of revelation, and I can't do that.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 6, 2014)

Something to think about as we discuss this topic. Wonder how Noah new exactly how to build the Ark. How did God speak to those men in that day. If it were a dream, I would question it and likely it would not get done. If he spoke to me and I saw him.... I would ask if he wanted it made from wood or metal, and get right on it. I wonder if the faith issue is actually in following God's directions, because likely he had good reason to believe that his instructions came from God. The bigger issue here is that rain did not exist before the flood. How could Noah imagine that water would rise so much and that something he had never seen before, a boat, would float. I build stuff all the time, but I am not reinventing the wheel. Everything I do has been done before. Not so with Noah. If I were him, I would not have imagined that this thing would do it's job. So he had to have faith to follow God's instruction. And then faith to get in as God said.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Something to think about as we discuss this topic. Wonder how Noah new exactly how to build the Ark. How did God speak to those men in that day. If it were a dream, I would question it and likely it would not get done. If he spoke to me and I saw him.... I would ask if he wanted it made from wood or metal, and get right on it. I wonder if the faith issue is actually in following God's directions, because likely he had good reason to believe that his instructions came from God. The bigger issue here is that rain did not exist before the flood. How could Noah imagine that water would rise so much and that something he had never seen before, a boat, would float. I build stuff all the time, but I am not reinventing the wheel. Everything I do has been done before. Not so with Noah. If I were him, I would not have imagined that this thing would do it's job. So he had to have faith to follow God's instruction. And then faith to get in as God said.



I agree.

I think the building instructions are somewhere in there, too. I'll see if I can find it.  Please God, don't leave it to my imagination...lol.


----------



## rjcruiser (Oct 6, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Something to think about as we discuss this topic. Wonder how Noah new exactly how to build the Ark. How did God speak to those men in that day. If it were a dream, I would question it and likely it would not get done. If he spoke to me and I saw him.... I would ask if he wanted it made from wood or metal, and get right on it. I wonder if the faith issue is actually in following God's directions, because likely he had good reason to believe that his instructions came from God. The bigger issue here is that rain did not exist before the flood. How could Noah imagine that water would rise so much and that something he had never seen before, a boat, would float. I build stuff all the time, but I am not reinventing the wheel. Everything I do has been done before. Not so with Noah. If I were him, I would not have imagined that this thing would do it's job. So he had to have faith to follow God's instruction. And then faith to get in as God said.



God gave him the specs (ie size and material).  We see that in scripture.

That being said, I'm sure there are things that God told him that aren't in scripture.  As long as it is in line with scripture, I think we can have some "sanctified imagination" here and be fine.

No...I don't believe the movie did a good job with the "sanctified imagination" thing.  I saw so many issues with it...but that is another thread.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 6, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> So all who did believe in Christ and were alive, descended into the air with Him for all the world to see?  We know many dead were resurrected with Him, they were also seen by witnesses that saw their physical bodies. If so perhaps we can say that the being 'caught up/raptured' has already happened.....if it didn't happened then, it was written that it would happen...when did that happen? unless we dismiss that part of revelation, and I can't do that.


The rapture doctrine is false. The resurrection was to happen at Christ return, not before.

When did Christ return....let's look at Christ's very words since you and I agree to believe the bible 100%.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing , which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

What things? Matthew 24:3 and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 World above is actually age.

Now, since I believe every word of the bible especially the words in red, I understand that the coming and the resurrection that was to take place at His coming happened at the destruction of the Jews temple in Jerusalem in 70ad, just as predicted in Matthew 24, and Revelation.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> God gave him the specs (ie size and material).  We see that in scripture.
> 
> That being said, I'm sure there are things that God told him that aren't in scripture.  As long as it is in line with scripture, I think we can have some "sanctified imagination" here and be fine.
> 
> No...I don't believe the movie did a good job with the "sanctified imagination" thing.  I saw so many issues with it...but that is another thread.



I didn't see the movie, but I have heard from others that it wasn't all that great.   I like the 'sanctified imagination' phrase.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The rapture doctrine is false. The resurrection was to happen at Christ return, not before.  *So why weren't the alive in Christ at that time taken up with Him? What does the words 'caught up' mean to you?*
> 
> When did Christ return....let's look at Christ's very words since you and I agree to believe the bible 100%.
> 
> ...


 I thought the temple destruction happened twice, no? It was destroyed once in the OT and then rebuilt. Destroyed again  then will be reconstructed for Christ's reign on earth. Did He reign in the temple in 70ad?


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2014)

I know I should preview, then edit, then post, but I lose the entire post to AOL not responding when I go to preview. I know that's one reason I don't get answers to all my questions that edit into the post....sigh. Guess I should use word pad, but that back and forth thing to read each sentance and respond causes my adhd to kick into overdrive.

Thanks to all of you, who put up with my 'humanism'...lol... patience is a virtue, I'm glad y'all have plenty of it. Thank you also for your mercy towards me, I need all I can get.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 6, 2014)

The alive in Christ then and now died physically under the new covenant salvation of everlasting life.  Paul is comforting the Thessalonians that their friends and family that have recently died will be raised from death...but when they die they will be caught up with them for Christ brings everlasting life, and they like us will not taste death....O death where is thy sting? Christ is victorious!

They were looking for Christ to return to end fully the old covenant age, and bring the New


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The alive in Christ then and now died physically under the new covenant salvation of everlasting life.  Paul is comforting the Thessalonians that their friends and family that have recently died will be raised from death...but when they die they will be caught up with them for Christ brings everlasting life, and they like us will not taste death....O death where is thy sting? Christ is victorious!
> 
> They were looking for Christ to return to end fully the old covenant age, and bring the New



Ok Mr Hobbs, I just did a little study on the building of the temple again and I realize I do agree with you on some more of your points.  Jesus said to destroy the temple and I will raise it up again in 3 days and give it to the gentiles....which of course He would be the temple, according to this scripture.  We don't worship in a temple, we worship in Him. That makes perfect sense to me. Is that correct 'to' you? Just wanna be on the same page with you. I mean I do go to church to worship but I can worship anytime, anywhere and I do.

Ok so now that we are living in the NT age, which I already believed.....when will or when did the events in revelation come into play?  I mean the ones that say all these things are to come. I understand the judgement part as far as the book of life, I believe all believer's names are written there. But what about the entire text in revelation? I can see where you are coming from on parts of it, just want to grasp the entire thing....(which I think might be impossible for most or at least some us)


----------



## rjcruiser (Oct 6, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> I didn't see the movie, but I have heard from others that it wasn't all that great.   I like the 'sanctified imagination' phrase.



I really tried to give it a chance.  I had heard mixed reviews, but decided to watch it and decide for myself.

I thought it pushed evolution...I thought it pushed environmentalism...I thought it did a huge disservice to the Biblical account.

Then, to top it all off...I thought the movie wasn't entertaining at all.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> I really tried to give it a chance.  I had heard mixed reviews, but decided to watch it and decide for myself.
> 
> I thought it pushed evolution...I thought it pushed environmentalism...I thought it did a huge disservice to the Biblical account.
> 
> Then, to top it all off...I thought the movie wasn't entertaining at all.




Knowing you, I bet you did giggle just a little bit inside and say "yeah right! whatever".


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 6, 2014)

All things in Revelation are fulfilled, yet some things are ongoing. I believe Christ is in the midst of the church and knocks that any man hears him and opens the door he will come into.

I know futurist doctrine makes it hard to phathom that these things are fulfilled, but one day not too long ago a light came on and BOOM all the sudden I didn't have to make excuses for not understanding prophecy, it was clear and had been there in front of me all along.

As to the temple destruction, yes the temple of God is now within us. It's spiritual and no longer physical. It's the temple Christ made through His resurrection, by forgiving us our sins, and giving us everlasting life.
 See the wages of sin brought death...The law exposed sin. Christ covers sin, and gives life.

That's why there's no need in a resurrection of the saved in the new covenant...The resurrection was a promise to Israel..Paul made that case in Acts 24-26.

We will go from life to life eternal transformed independently in the twinkling of an eye...not corporately as the OT saints.

IMHO..backed by scripture.


----------



## rjcruiser (Oct 6, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Knowing you, I bet you did giggle just a little bit inside and say "yeah right! whatever".



It was more like...pffftttt.  Kinda like what Willy and Jase do on Duck Dynasty. 

The only reason I watched the entire movie was because some of my Christian friends had said they loved it and thought it had gotten unfair criticism.  Guess we just have different tastes in movies.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 6, 2014)

I would like to hear more reasons why Christians will need a future resurrection? Many believe we go directly to live with the Lord when we die. Why or what is the point of a future resurrection?
What are some Bible verses that tell us what a future resurrection is for.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would like to hear more reasons why Christians will need a future resurrection? Many believe we go directly to live with the Lord when we die. Why or what is the point of a future resurrection?
> What are some Bible verses that tell us what a future resurrection is for.



My preference is to die and go straight to be with Jesus forever and forever....and let all i've ever known on this earth disappear into a sea of forgetfulness....I personally do not want to return at all to wars, evil, unsaved, etc. Not even as a witness to anything/anyone left.  I won't even know, no more tears, so no sadness involved.

I know that did not answer your questions at all, but I will try to do that later.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> It was more like...pffftttt.  Kinda like what Willy and Jase do on Duck Dynasty.
> 
> The only reason I watched the entire movie was because some of my Christian friends had said they loved it and thought it had gotten unfair criticism.  Guess we just have different tastes in movies.


...been there.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 6, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> God gave him the specs (ie size and material).  We see that in scripture.
> 
> That being said, I'm sure there are things that God told him that aren't in scripture.  As long as it is in line with scripture, I think we can have some "sanctified imagination" here and be fine.
> 
> No...I don't believe the movie did a good job with the "sanctified imagination" thing.  I saw so many issues with it...but that is another thread.


I have not seen the movie. Those type of movies can plant a seed of misrepresentation and we can not even realize it. Like I heard that Moses was a mean man in the movie. True or not in the movie, I don't know, but I don't want to have an unsupported thought. Kind of like going to a funneral home. I hesitate to look upon a friend in a casket because I don't want that memory of them.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 6, 2014)

Absent from the body is present with the Lord.... This contridicts...
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18New International Version (NIV)

Believers Who Have Died
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 Calling it a sleep would be strange if present with the Lord. Also the context tells us the we who are alive will not preceed those who are asleep. This statement assumes we believe the dead asleep and tells us that we will all meet the Lord in the air. The dead in Christ will rise at his coming. They are not present with the Lord


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Absent from the body is present with the Lord.... This contridicts...
> 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18New International Version (NIV)
> 
> Believers Who Have Died
> ...



Like I said a million times on here, whichever it is, we as believers in Christ will be with Him.  My personal comfort gets in the way sometimes, and I'd like to believe our spirits are with Christ now and when we die and when we die we will be in soul/body sleep, possibly a reason for a second resurrection. If I believe that I could be in the end to all war, I might need a body....even though now I only battle in a spiritual war....we battle not in flesh and blood.

I am interested in having all the 'correct' information, and all the conviction I have to be true, but I believe that not even one man knows all of it, His word says so. However I am not afraid at all of any plan God has for us.  I think the peace of Christ and the HS are His mercy and grace on me, even for the way that I think about things. He knows I seek, and only He knows when I will find....in the meantime all I can do is keep on seeking and be at peace in Him.  Whether I'm wrong or right I will sooner or later be with Him thru eternity, as we all who believe Jesus is who He says He is, whether we 'git' it ALL or not, I don't think matters.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 6, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Absent from the body is present with the Lord.... This contridicts...
> 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18New International Version (NIV)
> 
> Believers Who Have Died
> ...


 

Read the entire letter of 1Thessalonians, it was from Paul to them at a time John said was in the last hours before the end. They were eagerly awaiting and needed comforting which Paul did comfort them by telling them the dead would rise and when they died they would be with them also.

This really came out to me while reading the letter 

9 For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

 Jesus was going to rescue them from the wrath to come upon the Jews.

Keeping in mind also this letter is to the Thessalonians to comfort them, not to Christians for all times, I really like this in the 3rd chapter.

11 Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you; 12 and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you; 13 so that He may establishyour hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Those type of movies can plant a seed of misrepresentation and we can not even realize it.



I like that.

I take nibbles at those seeds sometimes, plant, water,nurture,tend them. I search around to see what it could be, I might not want it in my 'garden'. Most of the time it comes up as a weed and it gets 'kilt' off, once in a while it blooms into an awesome little pearl. Pays to seek. Saves a bunch of weeding at a later date, when all your fruit is being choked out by weeds.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
> 
> Jesus was going to rescue them from the wrath to come upon the Jews.
> 
> ...




Why did they need to be comforted after Jesus' resurrection? Couldn't Paul have just said it is over. He didn't, he told them they didn't have to be afraid of the wrath to come. What wrath to come, if God already rained His wrath in the OT? Paul coulda said said it's over don't worry God's wrath already came. And when did Christ come with all His saints? He didn't come down in the clouds, He was born of a virgin. At the resurrection those who pierced Him believed because they witnessed the 'thunder' and power of God.

I totally can comprehend this may not be for the gentiles, perhaps none of that is for us at all, maybe we'll just go straight to heaven and that's it. Perhaps the wrath is only for the Jews who do/did not believe and the gentiles that do not believe today will just die and be gone forever not knowing anything because the wrath isn't meant for them.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 6, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Why did they need to be comforted after Jesus' resurrection? Couldn't Paul have just said it is over. He didn't, he told them they didn't have to be afraid of the wrath to come. What wrath to come, if God already rained His wrath in the OT? Paul coulda said said it's over don't worry God's wrath already came. And when did Christ come with all His saints? He didn't come down in the clouds, He was born of a virgin.



This was between times, after the resurrection but before the coming, it was just a couple of years before the wrath came down.

 If anyone really wants a good study on this here it is, get your book and a warm glass of milk and feed off the meat discussed in this video.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2014)

Mr Hobbs I also added to my post..would you read that.

I will watch the video....thanks.

I would like to thank you for your kindness, patience and longsuffering in responding to me.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 6, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Mr Hobbs I also added to my post..would you read that.
> 
> I will watch the video....thanks.
> 
> I would like to thank you for your kindness, patience and longsuffering in responding to me.



Thank you. In all these questions, disagreements, concerns or inquirys it keeps me reading, studying and sharpening the iron against iron.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Thank you. In all these questions, disagreements, concerns or inquirys it keeps me reading, studying and sharpening the iron against iron.



Me, too.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Read the entire letter of 1Thessalonians, it was from Paul to them at a time John said was in the last hours before the end. They were eagerly awaiting and needed comforting which Paul did comfort them by telling them the dead would rise and when they died they would be with them also.
> 
> This really came out to me while reading the letter
> 
> ...


LOL, I never see your point. For awhile now you have been bringing up something that has caught your interest. I must have a preconceived assumption that is causing me to look right over your point. I am going to watch the video to see if it will wake me up


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 6, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> LOL, I never see your point. For awhile now you have been bringing up something that has caught your interest. I must have a preconceived assumption that is causing me to look right over your point. I am going to watch the video to see if it will wake me up


LOL, I watched the first 45 seconds and I realized your point. That Jesus has already come back, to dwell in us????? Now, Back to the show


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 6, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> LOL, I watched the first 45 seconds and I realized your point. That Jesus has already come back, to dwell in us????? Now, Back to the show


LOL, ???? should I be laughing?, I can't follow what they are saying. Like blinders have been put on me.  I'm missing it still. Gonna take a break from it


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 6, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> LOL, ???? should I be laughing?, I can't follow what they are saying. Like blinders have been put on me.  I'm missing it still. Gonna take a break from it



Too much , too soon? It's been a long path for me, so sometimes I forget my own journey, and just how much study it took to first doubt what I was being taught, then realize what scripture actually teaches.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Too much , too soon? It's been a long path for me, so sometimes I forget my own journey, and just how much study it took to first doubt what I was being taught, then realize what scripture actually teaches.



The first time you mentioned this second coming to me i thought, "how strange is this belief." I'm not to the point of believing it but it does make sense. It's hard to change one's beliefs indoctrinated from infancy to something else.
Now you must know how 1gr8bldr and I feel about our beliefs in Jesus not being his Father.
We read every verse in a different light such as:
11 Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you;

I'm looking at verses now from a Preterist prospective. It does change a lot and makes one wonder. It is so much easier to explain. But then again predestination makes everything easier to explain.

You do a remarkable job explaining your beliefs and always keep a cool head. 1gr8bldr likewise does an outstanding job explaining God and his son, Jesus.
Sometimes it feels like the whole world is against you and you are the only  one who sees things the way you do.

As Mountainwoman said, this has been an outstanding thread. It's making me think.


----------



## gemcgrew (Oct 6, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> That's why there's no need in a resurrection of the saved in the new covenant...The resurrection was a promise to Israel..Paul made that case in Acts 24-26.


"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"(Ephesians 2:5,6)

I have experienced resurrection.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 6, 2014)

I didn't get many answers of the purpose of destruction from God's wrath. We can start with the Flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, & Jerusalem. Is there a relation? If so then couldn't all three be local?
If not local, what is God's purpose for a future destruction? What was he trying to accomplish in the past or future as related to evilness? Maybe it has to do with regions/worlds becoming so selfish they no longer help the sick & poor. Maybe it's when cities are so tied up in religion they no longer help the sick & poor.
I can see this wrath of God before the age of grace more than after the age of grace. I can't fathom why God would send a Messiah to take our place for our evil sins and still feel the need to destroy the world for evilness. Especially if sinners are so depraved they can't possibly understand salvation. Especially if our ears & eyes must be opened to understand salvation. 
Jesus died for our sins. None are righteous. Jesus is now the Temple. We don't need to rebuild any temple in Jerusalem.

Acts 17:24
The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst?

God doesn't need a future destruction. God's wrath met his grace on the cross. God doesn't want any more sacrifices, he wants love.
He wants us to love and help others.

If the blood of Jesus took care of sin, then it took care of God's wrath for the same sin. Generation after generation over time has had evilness. The present generation of today is no more evil than the generation of the Roaring Twenties. I think this generation is better at helping others than generations of the past. 
With that being said it's not suppose to matter because we are all equally unrighteous without Jesus. The person with anger in his heart is as guilty as the murderer. 
We are all as guilty as the sinner's in Paul's lists of sinners that won't inherit the Kingdom of God. 
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord.

Again what point would a future resurrection and destruction accomplish?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 6, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"(Ephesians 2:5,6)
> 
> I have experienced resurrection.



How do you view the second coming, destruction, and physical resurrection? 
Since you have experienced resurrection, what purpose would the return of Jesus be for? What purpose would a future destruction serve?


----------



## gemcgrew (Oct 6, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> How do you view the second coming, destruction, and physical resurrection?


As biblical and as a historicist. 


Artfuldodger said:


> Since you have experienced resurrection, what purpose would the return of Jesus be for?


Did He leave me?


Artfuldodger said:


> What purpose would a future destruction serve?


Of the wicked? For the sake of righteousness.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 7, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
> What purpose would a future destruction serve?
> 
> ...



If our resurrection is at death and we go to be with Christ, doesn't God do the same for the wicked at their death? Either by everlasting death or everlasting life in He11.
I guess it would be possible for Christians to go to Heaven at their death but the wicked would sleep in the grave until the second coming.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 7, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> If our resurrection is at death and we go to be with Christ, doesn't God do the same for the wicked at their death? Either by everlasting death or everlasting life in He11.
> I guess it would be possible for Christians to go to Heaven at their death but the wicked would sleep in the grave until the second coming.



The first death came from Adam. In the garden was everlasting life and communion with God, when he was cast out in the day he ate of the fruit, he died spiritually, that is to say he was seperated from God outside the garden, and man was cursed with death " seperation from God" because of sin which the Law only magnified, throughout the Old Covenant.

 Jesus death, resurrection, atonement, made a way . He cleansed believers of sin , that God could once again commune with man through an inward dwelling.

If no faith is found in man at their death they are cast into the lake of fire..this is the second death...seperation from God. For the first death has been defeated.

Does this make sense?


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 7, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"(Ephesians 2:5,6)
> 
> I have experienced resurrection.



Yes that's a great spiritual representation of the past physical resurrection.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 7, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The first death came from Adam. In the garden was everlasting life and communion with God, when he was cast out in the day he ate of the fruit, he died spiritually, that is to say he was seperated from God outside the garden, and man was cursed with death " seperation from God" because of sin which the Law only magnified, throughout the Old Covenant.
> 
> Jesus death, resurrection, atonement, made a way . He cleansed believers of sin , that God could once again commune with man through an inward dwelling.
> 
> ...



Yes but I'd like to hear from Futurist what or why we need a future resurrection? Why do we need a future destruction if we now have grace? If the second coming is in the future, why are we being warned? If in the future can we flee the city?


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 7, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yes but I'd like to hear from Futurist what or why we need a future resurrection? Why do we need a future destruction if we now have grace? If the second coming is in the future, why are we being warned? If in the future can we flee the city?



Good question. Remember John said of Jesus in Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me , It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the  water of life freely.

If it was all done, and the end of the world had come, why were men still going to be saved?


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 7, 2014)

This has been a very interesting thread and I want to thank everyone here for letting me join in.

I've gotta bail on this one and stick to what I do know.....the gospel. My imagination was running wild throughout this entire thread, as you know...lol.  

God knows what I do and what I don't understand and one day it will be revealed to me. I was swimming in a sea of confusion and we all know where that comes from.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 7, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> I was swimming in a sea of confusion and we all know where that comes from.



Dispensationalism? 

You will be missed, thanks for participating.


----------



## formula1 (Oct 7, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> I've gotta bail on this one and stick to what I do know.....the gospel.



Annie, that is great wisdom!  Check out the DBV today for a good scripture to ponder!


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 7, 2014)

formula1 said:


> Annie, that is great wisdom!  Check out the DBV today for a good scripture to ponder!




Psalm 131 
1 O Lord, my heart is not lifted up; my eyes are not raised too high; I do not occupy myself with things too great and too marvelous for me.

Thank you God for your answer....the Holy Spirit is always right on time.  Just sittin' around waitin' on the bus and BAM here it comes.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 7, 2014)

Proverbs 1:5   
Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance, 

Proverbs 18:15  
An intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge. 

Proverbs 10:17  
Whoever heeds instruction is on the path to life, but he who rejects reproof leads others astray. 

Proverbs 4:1-2  
Hear, O sons, a father's instruction, and be attentive, that you may gain insight, for I give you good precepts; do not forsake my teaching.

(We must know our limitations.)
(Sometimes it is best to stop studying on a particular subject for a few days or weeks. Sometimes we need time to descramble what we have absorbed.)


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 7, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Proverbs 1:5
> Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance,
> 
> Proverbs 18:15
> ...



Guess I ain't gone....LOL...just outta that exchange.

I totally agree.

I will always study the Bible...like a deer seeketh water, I seeketh Him.  Sorta like the song I posted earlier in another thread.....'There's Something in the Water'....my daughter had sent it to me this morning in an email.

Then I read the DBV.

And then I went to open my kitchen window, in a tree that sprouted from a twig I had stuck in a flower pot, there were 3 little full fledged baby birds sittin' in the tree. A minature cardinal, a tiny robin and a tiny blue bird. Believe it or not, I got cold chills I was awestruck within 5 minutes after waking up. 

That's what I call a God Whisper...


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 7, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I didn't get many answers of the purpose of destruction from God's wrath. We can start with the Flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, & Jerusalem. Is there a relation? If so then couldn't all three be local?
> If not local, what is God's purpose for a future destruction? What was he trying to accomplish in the past or future as related to evilness? Maybe it has to do with regions/worlds becoming so selfish they no longer help the sick & poor. Maybe it's when cities are so tied up in religion they no longer help the sick & poor.
> I can see this wrath of God before the age of grace more than after the age of grace. I can't fathom why God would send a Messiah to take our place for our evil sins and still feel the need to destroy the world for evilness. Especially if sinners are so depraved they can't possibly understand salvation. Especially if our ears & eyes must be opened to understand salvation.
> Jesus died for our sins. None are righteous. Jesus is now the Temple. We don't need to rebuild any temple in Jerusalem.
> ...


 36"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 7, 2014)

I was just reading the chapters involving the flood. I would never believe it local. To much context otherwise


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 7, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> I was just reading the chapters involving the flood. I would never believe it local. To much context otherwise



Would you mind quoting some of that text please? Thanks.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 7, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Would you mind quoting some of that text please? Thanks.


Bear with me while I highlight;



1When human beings began to increase in number on the *earth* and daughters were born to them, 2the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend witha humans forever, for they are mortalb ; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the* human race* had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6The Lord regretted that he had made *human beings on the earth,* and his heart was deeply troubled. 7So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the *face of the earth* the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8*But Noah* found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

Noah and the Flood

9This is the account of Noah and his family.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11Now the *earth* was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12God saw how *corrupt the earth had become*, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an *end to all people*, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to *destroy both them and the earth*. 14So make yourself an ark of cypressc wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.d 16Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubite high all around.f Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to *destroy all life* under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18*But I will establish my covenant with you*, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.” 

This is only the first portion. This much or more still remains


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 7, 2014)

Some may find this interesting. It is strange how Gen mentions the union of woman with angels.... but then does not speak much of it but begins to focus on the sins of man instead. Here is what the book of Enoch says about the issue. Context is that Enoch was sent to relay God's message of judgement for what the watchers/angels had done in mixing a race of divine with mortal, creating jiants whom devoured the earth, having depleted it's resources and resorting to the eating of flesh and blood. They had also taught secrets not for man to man. The watchers, 200 of them repented and asked Enoch to intercede for them. God told Enoch to tell them that they will not be forgiven and that they will have to watch as there offspring is terminated in a great deluge.

Chapter 15

1Then addressing me, He spoke and said, Hear, neither be afraid, O righteous Enoch, you scribe of righteousness: approach hither, and hear my voice. Go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent you to pray for them, You ought to pray for men, and not men for you.

2Wherefore have you forsaken the lofty and holy heaven, which endures for ever, and have lain with women; have defile yourselves with the daughters of men; have taken to yourselves wives; have acted like the sons of the earth, and have begotten an impious offspring? (23)

(23) An impious offspring. Literally, "giants" (Charles, p. 82; Knibb, p. 101).

3You being spiritual, holy, and possessing a life which is eternal, have polluted yourselves with women; have begotten in carnal blood; have lusted in the blood of men; and have done as those who are flesh and blood do.

4These however die and perish.

5Therefore have I given to them wives, that they might cohabit with them; that sons might be born of them; and that this might be transacted upon earth.

6But you from the beginning were made spiritual, possessing a life which is eternal, and not subject to death for ever.

7Therefore I made not wives for you, because, being spiritual, your dwelling is in heaven.

8Now the giants, who have been born of spirit and of flesh, shall be called upon earth evil spirits, and on earth shall be their habitation. Evil spirits shall proceed from their flesh, because they were created from above; from the holy Watchers was their beginning and primary foundation. Evil spirits shall they be upon earth, and the spirits of the wicked shall they be called. The habitation of the spirits of heaven shall be in heaven; but upon earth shall be the habitation of terrestrial spirits, who are born on earth. (24)

Notice that these half man, half divine are immortal, living forever as evil spirits, waiting their day of judgement, where as revelation says will be thrown in the lake of fire to be punished forever, not destroyed.... because they are immortal


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 7, 2014)

Thanks.
 Now I would like to demonstrate some OT language that causes me to pause a bit on making conclusions too quickly, especially when it comes to Gods wrath and judgement, lets look at this language:

Isaiah 34 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.

10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.


See how horrible that sounds so far? Its like the end of the world isnt it? Thats apocalyptic language and it cannot be taken literal, the proof is in the next few verses that contradict what has already been said if one reads it literal.
11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.

12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.

13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.

14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.

16 Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.


 Do you see the contradiction if this were literal? All apocalyptic language is like this, its way over exagerated! Its like this also in the Lords coming.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 7, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Some may find this interesting. It is strange how Gen mentions the union of woman with angels.... but then does not speak much of it but begins to focus on the sins of man instead. Here is what the book of Enoch says about the issue. Context is that Enoch was sent to relay God's message of judgement for what the watchers/angels had done in mixing a race of divine with mortal, creating jiants whom devoured the earth, having depleted it's resources and resorting to the eating of flesh and blood. They had also taught secrets not for man to man. The watchers, 200 of them repented and asked Enoch to intercede for them. God told Enoch to tell them that they will not be forgiven and that they will have to watch as there offspring is terminated in a great deluge.
> 
> Chapter 15
> 
> ...



This is another reason I am persuaded to believe the flood was local. some of the giants survived the flood while the fallen angels as their fathers were bound in Tarsarus.

 until I started this thread I thought that was the purpose of the flood, but seeing some survived I can no longer support that idea.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 7, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> This is another reason I am persuaded to believe the flood was local. some of the giants survived the flood while the fallen angels as their fathers were bound in Tarsarus.
> 
> until I started this thread I thought that was the purpose of the flood, but seeing some survived I can no longer support that idea.


Can you point me to the verses that show that some survived so that I may take a look


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 7, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Can you point me to the verses that show that some survived so that I may take a look


I went back and found your post, 75, I think that was it. It does seem as though the story is told after the fact implying that the flood is the point in time of before and after.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 7, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Can you point me to the verses that show that some survived so that I may take a look



This is from post# 75

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 

“There were giants in the earth in those days” obviously was referring to the time period before the Flood. The giants were resulted from the union of daughters of men and the sons of God. The “daughters of men” were of human origin, but the “sons of God” were unlikely human but possibly were fallen angelic beings (as referenced by Peter in 2Pet2:4-5) in order to produce "freakish" babies that grew up into giants. So, we were told that there were giants before the flood. 

But note that it also said, “and also after that”, meaning that after the Flood, there were also giants still living! But, if all the giants were destroyed in the flood, where did those giants come from after the flood? And indeed, there were mentions of giants even to the time of Moses and Joshua in Deut 9:2 and in Num 13:33, which might point to their continued existence after the flood.

Edit:   You beat me to it LOL!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 7, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> 36"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."



The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him.

If someone rejects the Son, of course God's wrath remains on him in the form of NOT gaining eternal life. What is the opposite of not having "eternal" life?
It's the same wrath of God that will remain on all people who don't obey the Son. Perhaps this wrath will happen daily until they repent and continue into their death if they die unrepented. That verse says nothing of a one time future event of wrath.


----------



## gemcgrew (Oct 7, 2014)

Or the word "giants" means violent, oppressive, fallen men.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 8, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> This is from post# 75
> 
> 
> 
> Edit:   You beat me to it LOL!


 Maybe by a few seconds


----------

