# Another church thread.....long winded OP



## JB0704

Sorry for the long winded OP.  I hope I can generate some conversation which goes a little deeper than accusations and asking me to just "love the church and all of it's warts."  I would love to get some responses, but let's please try to have a discussion here and not an attack of me personally (as in "you sound like a what's in it for me kind-of guy").  If you want me to send you a list of the "service" I have done I will.  Also.....I KNOW BOTH SIDES TO EVERY STORY I HAVE EVER RELATED ON THIS FORUM.  Please do not insinuate that I am passing along gossip.  

I hope some of you who are pastors of small "traditional" church relate the way your church reflects the NT church.  I would like those of you who attend or lead contemporary churches relate how your church reflects the NT church.

If we are going to say "go to church," can we explain "why?"

Here goes.......

HF asked a few questions in another thread, so I wanted to address them seperately and leave the Mathew 18 thread alone.  Here is the quote........



> ...the biblical model for church leadership is a plurality of elders. There are LOTS of christians out there who will tell you the very same thing.



I fundamentally disagree with that assertion.  From my perspective, _most_ people will sit in ANY church that satisfies their need for entertainment, and disregard what they percieve as "minutia."  IF needed, I will provide multiple links to churches which have in their "values" statements clearly unbiblical leadership structures (I have posted plenty on here before).  Most of these churches are growing, and full every Sunday.  

This is another problem I have.  Christians will line up in record numbers to buy a chicken sandwich to protest gay marriage, but they will not lift one finger to correct the wrongs at "home."  I view this as a fundamental disregard of the "speck / log" concept of judgement.  And I have difficulty "playing along."  We want to judge others, but we can't handle being judged ourselves.

I have tried visiting churches a good bit lately, but I see a lot of the same stuff I always saw.  Budget defecits.  Marketing.  Production for entertainment value.  "Pastor led" churches....not "elder led."  I feel dirty being part of it.  People want to stand against other people.  But we don't want to look at the mirror.  WE talk about standing for our faith....but we are so selective as to where we take our "stands."  And, usually, we end up picking on the "weakest" people who need the most help. 

I miss the community aspect of church.  What I do not miss is the phoniness of greeters on Sunday smiling and handing me an information card knowing full well that they don't give a crap about me or my family.  They want me in the pew writing checks.  Let's at least be honest.  I don't want anybody to claim to be "family" if they are not willing to treat folks like family.  Otherwise, it's a lie.

Who am I?  Who are you?  If we are supposed to be a "church family" shouldn't we at least be willing to get to know each other?   Church today is so foreign to the church I read about in the NT.  It's not "cool" anymore to make bread for each other.  *Yes, there are very good churches out there which are elder led. * But, the closest thing I see to the NT church is the contemporary small groups which meet in homes.

I welcome your thoughts.....(Huntinfool...you asked the questions, I am particularly interested in your thoughts).


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## Huntinfool

> as in "you sound like a what's in it for me kind-of guy").



That wasn't an attack....it's just how many of your posts read to me.


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## JB0704

I wrote the OP for you, man.  Let's have your thoughts.......


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## Huntinfool

> From my perspective, most people will sit in ANY church that satisfies their need for entertainment, and disregard what they percieve as "minutia."



That's probably true.  But it's true only because most people who attend church (especially in the South) are not followers of Christ or are very immature believers.  As long as the leadership isn't in the same camp, there is no issue for me.  People are self-centered.  One of the church's responsibilities is to help lead them down the path toward sanctification.

I do not disagree that there are many churches out there that are moving in the wrong direction.  Where we disagree is that I believe that there are just as many smaller churches (and some really big ones too) out there that 'get it'.  You don't seem to have ever run across one.

At the end of the day, I see the same things that you listed.  I seem them in churches just like you do.

The difference is that where you see a body that is literally rittled with stage 4 terminal cancer, I see a body that has just been diagnosed with early pre-cancerous skin melanoma (have no idea if that's a real medical term!).  

In my world, the body is mostly healthy with some "warts" that need to be worked on and refined in the fire of the HS.  In your world (seemingly), there is no hope for the church and it is totally overcome with evil men doing evil things....with a few small exceptions and there aren't any near your house at all.

I see the bride of Christ, blemished, but still in much of the glory he intended.  What I hear from you is that you see a cheating adulterous wife who has left her husband and kids for "the other man".


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> That's probably true.  But it's true only because most people who attend church (especially in the South) are not followers of Christ or are very immature believers.  As long as the leadership isn't in the same camp, there is no issue for me.  People are self-centered.  One of the church's responsibilities is to help lead them down the path toward sanctification.
> 
> I do not disagree that there are many churches out there that are moving in the wrong direction.  Where we disagree is that I believe that there are just as many smaller churches (and some really big ones too) out there that 'get it'.  You don't seem to have ever run across one.



So, we agree on the premise, just not my practice because of the premise?

Here's the problem, HF, I know several people who attend one of these "unbiblical" churches, and they know for a fact that the church is absolutely unbiblical......yet they still stood in line to buy a CFA sandwich so they could aid in the "morality" of the world.

It is both puzzling and upsetting.  On one hand, they don't care about their "home."  On the other hand, they want to tell somebody how to clean up _their_ home.

I don't want any part of that.  I don't care if they believe that the gov't should tell folks who to marry.  What I do care about is the fact that they are telling people to submit, yet unwilling to submit to the same standards themselves.



Huntinfool said:


> At the end of the day, I see the same things that you listed.  I seem them in churches just like you do.



Then why do we argue about it all the dang time?



Huntinfool said:


> In my world, the body is mostly healthy with some "warts" that need to be worked on and refined in the fire of the HS.  In your world (seemingly), there is no hope for the church and it is totally overcome with evil men doing evil things....with a few small exceptions and there aren't any near your house at all.



There may be.  I have visited about 10 this year.  Some are so phony they make me want to puke (I can give illustrations of why I feel that way).  Some try very hard to "get it right."  My problem is my hesitance to go "all in" only to uproot my family again six months from now when some preacher tells me he had a "vision."  



Huntinfool said:


> I see the bride of Christ, blemished, but still in much of the glory he intended.  What I hear from you is that you see a cheating adulterous wife who has left her husband and kids for "the other man".



Bingo.

Now, if that is my perception, am I not acting according to the instructions?

I once listed my 4 "big" negative church experiences for you.  I don't think the problem is that I am unwilling to look, I think the difference between you and I is that for all the things we see, I just got fed up.  I had enough, and threw in the towel.

When I was a kid I went to an "old-timey" church.  This church had a very strong "head pastor," and deacons that gave him fits.  In that church, I remember there was a very nice man, who was quiet, and not really of a very high esteem.  That church started having problems.  When all the "big names" started leaving, this fella remained loyal. He grew in stature within the church.  Next thing you know, this fella who had spent years singing in the choir, but never having a solo, was singing solos every other Sunday.  He then became a deacon.  He then left his wife for a relative of a staff member.  The church performed this wedding very shortly after the two divorces were finalized.  This man's loyalty to the "wrong team" destroyed his life.  I don't want to be that man.  I try to have an open mind on who I am actually giving my loyalty to.  

It feels good to support the "home team."  It feels good to "be somebody."  But, to me, it feels dirty to abandon any sense of principle in order to assimilate into something I feel is absolutely incorrect.


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## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> I have tried visiting churches a good bit lately ...



Commit to one for three months.  If you're fed up with that one at the end of three months, commit to another one.  At least you'll be hearing the word of God preached, and you'll be interacting with other believers.




JB0704 said:


> They want me in the pew writing checks.



As the member of a small church with a small budget, I can tell you that is not an insignificant thing.


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## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> Commit to one for three months.  If you're fed up with that one at the end of three months, commit to another one.  At least you'll be hearing the word of God preached, and you'll be interacting with other believers.



My wife and I did the "4 week" thing with a few of them.  One didn't make it past 2 weeks.  One made it almost 2 months.

3 months is a long time.  Maybe I will try.




centerpin fan said:


> As the member of a small church with a small budget, I can tell you that is not an insignificant thing.



I appreciate your honesty. Actually, I got a good chuckle out of it.   And I love small churches.  I love the "community" they accomplish.  After visiting a mega church, small churches are a breath of fresh air.

What I was getting at was that it often seems that the check is the reason they want the information.  Not to share a community with me.  They want me to buy in, instead of welcoming me in.


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## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> My wife and I did the "4 week" thing with a few of them.  One didn't make it past 2 weeks.  One made it almost 2 months.
> 
> 3 months is a long time.  Maybe I will try.



Try two months.  I once stood on my head for two months.  (Going to the bathroom was not a pleasant experience.)


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## Huntinfool

If you remember, could you just list out for me what caused you to not stay at each of the 10 churches you've visited this year?


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## stringmusic

JB, I think finding a church that puts a lot of emphasis on "Life groups" or small groups with people your age and marital status would be something to look into, this mainly goes for church's that are considered "big".

Our church is relatively in the middle as far as members, but, our pastor is very humble and approachable. Many people would find it interesting that he leaves the finances to the elders and finance team and has no clue who gives what or how much they give.

The life groups are something that everyone in our church are encouraged to join. Obviously it's hard to have a really tight nit community with 3 service times every Sunday with 2,000 members, and that is why life groups are encouraged greatly.

I don't mean for this to come off as a " look how great my church is" (even though I love it), just to give you a couple of paramiters of what I think is a great church to be apart of, and something you might look for when continuing your search, if you haven't already.


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## gordon 2

A.Quote.[That's probably true. But it's true only because most people who attend church (especially in the South) are not followers of Christ or are very immature believers...]End Quote.

B. Quote.[I see the bride of Christ, blemished, but still in much of the glory he intended. What I hear from you is that you see a cheating adulterous wife who has left her husband and kids for "the other man". ]

Hum. Can B be supported the statement A? I find this stricking that I understand it or else I don't at all.
In anycase I have no dog in this race. Peace bros.


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## Huntinfool

They are either not truly followers OR they are very immature believers.  

My personal example is that we have a church of roughly 250 members.  Probably 125-150 show up on Sundays regularly.  Of that 125-150, my personal observation is that maybe 75 are deeply committed and maturing followers of Christ.  The rest are in one of the two categories listed about IMO (and I'm not the judge of their heart...just to clarify).  

It is SOOOOOO worth it to be in fellowship with those 75, to grow along side them, to serve with them and to work to change the "75" into "250" along with them.  

For me, our church is 75 strong and it is blemished....but a beautiful bride that Christ will be proud to return and redeem for himself on the Day of the Lord.

I think, too often, we concentrate on the other 50-75 and refuse invest the emotional capital to get to know the 75.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> If you remember, could you just list out for me what caused you to not stay at each of the 10 churches you've visited this year?



I don't really want to.  Some problems were spotted in multiple churches (vision, budget, over production), some were unique....such as "cold."

Most were not "elder led."  I found this out after visiting.  Two or three actually were very much "elder led."  But that was the definite minority.

A few were extremely "fake."  

One gave me very bad "flashbacks" to a previous church.  Too much "canned Jesus." (I started a thread after that one).

One gave an absolutely unbiblical sermon based on current circumstance.

"Vision led."

Some of them put an awful lot of emphasis on presentation (high end graphics, lighting, production), but the budget numbers in the bulletin indicated financial struggles (telling me their priorities were in the wrong place).

One my wife was not comfortable in (and if momma ain't happy.....)

If you need more specific than that, I can try.....but it was ten.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I think, too often, we concentrate on the other 75-100 and refuse invest the emotional capital to get to know the 50.



I beleive equality amongst the body is a biblical concept.  

Somewhere in that 75 is a "jb0704" wondering why you don't think he is "family."


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## Huntinfool

Did I say that?

Each of the 250 is precious to me.  But many of them show up at 10 and leave the moment the last song is played.  They have no interest in fellowship or spiritual growth.  They check on the "went to church" box on their weekly form as often as it doesn't conflict with softball or going to the lake.  I am not excluding them.  They are voluntarily excluding themselves.

The 75 are the ones that my family is in deep fellowship with and I pray that, someday, all 250 will be in that category.


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## JB0704

stringmusic said:


> JB, I think finding a church that puts a lot of emphasis on "Life groups" or small groups with people your age and marital status would be something to look into, this mainly goes for church's that are considered "big".



I understand what you are saying.  I guess the proble is that I don't really "need" another group of "friends."  My wife and I are blessed with a relatively large "inner circle" which mostly consists of my old small group and their wives.

As awesome as that small group was, I have difficulty being part of another one.....I know that one is definitely "my problem."



stringmusic said:


> Many people would find it interesting that he leaves the finances to the elders and finance team and has no clue who gives what or how much they give.



I do find that very interesting, and cool.  I know of a church that lost a lot of "big givers."  And, suddenly, the pastor who didn't have time for anybody found time to have one-on-one meetings with these "big givers."  This man was typically one who said "love it or leave it."  But, when it hit the finances, he was willing to listen.  I know both sides of that story as well (for those who are about to say I don't).




stringmusic said:


> The life groups are something that everyone in our church are encouraged to join. Obviously it's hard to have a really tight nit community with 3 service times every Sunday with 2,000 members, and that is why life groups are encouraged greatly.



I agree that those groups are the only way to achieve community in a church that size....well, the "best" way.  The problem I see with that is a distance is created between the leaders and the congregants.  You start to ahve a conglomeration of "mini-churches" within the big church.  And, often (not saying your church), nobody really knows what is going on in the leadership.  Some are ok with that.  I have difficulty trusting pastors / elders without a certani level of transparency.  They don't get a "blank check." Nobody should.  Accountability is a good thing.



stringmusic said:


> I don't mean for this to come off as a " look how great my church is" (even though I love it), just to give you a couple of paramiters of what I think is a great church to be apart of, and something you might look for when continuing your search, if you haven't already.



It didn't come across that way.  I'm glad you like your church.  It sounds like a good one.  I enjoyed the sermon you sent me.  Your pastor comes across as a decent fella.....and a terrible hunter


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Did I say that?



It cam across that way.  I may have misunderstood.



Huntinfool said:


> Each of the 250 is precious to me.  But many of them show up at 10 and leave the moment the last song is played.  They have no interest in fellowship or spiritual growth.  They check on the "went to church" box on their weekly form as often as it doesn't conflict with softball or going to the lake.  I am not excluding them.  They are voluntarily excluding themselves.
> 
> The 75 are the ones that my family is in deep fellowship with and I pray that, someday, all 250 will be in that category.



We seem to be on the same page in a lot of ways here.  I also believe that if you are going to be called part of a church that you should be part of the "church community" and not an attender of a service.

A freind of mine and I helped another friend move to another state a few Sundays ago.  On the trip, we agreed that what we were doing was more "church like" than sitting in a pew woudl have been.


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## thedeacon

JB maybe you should start your own Church so everything can be done as you see it should. If you are looking for a church without hypocrits, give up, if you are looking for a church that doesn't take up a collection, give up, if you are looking for a church that agrees on everything, give up, if you are looking for a church that never has problems, give up, if you are looking for a church that you will agree with 100%, give up. 

Need I go on? Sorry if this seems blunt but it is my opinion.


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## JB0704

thedeacon said:


> JB maybe you should start your own Church so everything can be done as you see it should. If you are looking for a church without hypocrits, give up, if you are looking for a church that doesn't take up a collection, give up, if you are looking for a church that agrees on everything, give up, if you are looking for a church that never has problems, give up, if you are looking for a church that you will agree with 100%, give up.
> 
> Need I go on? Sorry if this seems blunt but it is my opinion.



Oh.  You must haved missed it.....

I gave up on church years ago for many of the reasons you listed, and a few others I listed.  I visited some this year.....but you're right.  I don't belong.


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## JB0704

thedeacon said:


> JB maybe you should start your own Church so everything can be done as you see it should. If you are looking for a church without hypocrits, give up, if you are looking for a church that doesn't take up a collection, give up, if you are looking for a church that agrees on everything, give up, if you are looking for a church that never has problems, give up, if you are looking for a church that you will agree with 100%, give up.
> 
> Need I go on? Sorry if this seems blunt but it is my opinion.



BTW, I guess you skipped, or ignored, the first paragraph in the OP.  I was asking specific questions, and asked that it not be turned into an attack.  Fantastic that you had absolutely nothing of value to add, yet still wanted to take a shot.  Thanks for telling me to love the church anyway.  If you had actually read the OP, you would have understood somebody has said that a time or two....


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## Huntinfool

Just as a thought, you could save your family a whole lot of confusion if you'd choose churches based on what you already know about them and then call the pastor and ask to sit down with him one on one for a few minutes.  At least you can gauge from that whether you even want to visit.

My sense, though, is that you really don't have much of a desire to find a church.  You're convinced it's corrupted across the board and it sounds like you go into the visit looking for "what's wrong".


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Just as a thought, you could save your family a whole lot of confusion if you'd choose churches based on what you already know about them and then call the pastor and ask to sit down with him one on one for a few minutes.  At least you can gauge from that whether you even want to visit.



HF, do you remember the story I told you about asking certain pastors for "sit downs," and getting blown off.



Huntinfool said:


> My sense, though, is that you really don't have much of a desire to find a church.  You're convinced it's corrupted across the board and it sounds like you go into the visit looking for "what's wrong".



You asked the questions, I just opened the thread to answer them.   Regretting that now.  Seems folks love casting stones, but have a lot of difficulty looking in the mirror.

But, after getting burned a few times, a person tends to look for "trouble points."  I try to have an open mind (visited one for two months).  It is what it is.

I get the sense you have a need to be "accepted" by those in authority.  Perhaps this is a wrong sense, perhaps it is a right one.  But, it is a sense I have had about you for a while, and this is the first time I have mentioned it.....because it is counter-productive.  Hope you understand the point I am making with that.


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## stringmusic

JB, I think you need to love the church and all of it's warts.


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## JB0704

stringmusic said:


> JB, I think you need to love the church and all of it's warts.





Thanks string....I needed a good laugh....


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## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> Sorry for the long winded OP.  I hope I can generate some conversation which goes a little deeper than accusations and asking me to just "love the church and all of it's warts."  I would love to get some responses, but let's please try to have a discussion here and not an attack of me personally (as in "you sound like a what's in it for me kind-of guy").  If you want me to send you a list of the "service" I have done I will.  Also.....I KNOW BOTH SIDES TO EVERY STORY I HAVE EVER RELATED ON THIS FORUM.  Please do not insinuate that I am passing along gossip.
> 
> I hope some of you who are pastors of small "traditional" church relate the way your church reflects the NT church.  I would like those of you who attend or lead contemporary churches relate how your church reflects the NT church.
> 
> If we are going to say "go to church," can we explain "why?"
> 
> Here goes.......
> 
> HF asked a few questions in another thread, so I wanted to address them seperately and leave the Mathew 18 thread alone.  Here is the quote........
> 
> 
> 
> I fundamentally disagree with that assertion.  From my perspective, _most_ people will sit in ANY church that satisfies their need for entertainment, and disregard what they percieve as "minutia."  IF needed, I will provide multiple links to churches which have in their "values" statements clearly unbiblical leadership structures (I have posted plenty on here before).  Most of these churches are growing, and full every Sunday.
> 
> This is another problem I have.  Christians will line up in record numbers to buy a chicken sandwich to protest gay marriage, but they will not lift one finger to correct the wrongs at "home."  I view this as a fundamental disregard of the "speck / log" concept of judgement.  And I have difficulty "playing along."  We want to judge others, but we can't handle being judged ourselves.
> 
> I have tried visiting churches a good bit lately, but I see a lot of the same stuff I always saw.  Budget defecits.  Marketing.  Production for entertainment value.  "Pastor led" churches....not "elder led."  I feel dirty being part of it.  People want to stand against other people.  But we don't want to look at the mirror.  WE talk about standing for our faith....but we are so selective as to where we take our "stands."  And, usually, we end up picking on the "weakest" people who need the most help.
> 
> I miss the community aspect of church.  What I do not miss is the phoniness of greeters on Sunday smiling and handing me an information card knowing full well that they don't give a crap about me or my family.  They want me in the pew writing checks.  Let's at least be honest.  I don't want anybody to claim to be "family" if they are not willing to treat folks like family.  Otherwise, it's a lie.
> 
> Who am I?  Who are you?  If we are supposed to be a "church family" shouldn't we at least be willing to get to know each other?   Church today is so foreign to the church I read about in the NT.  It's not "cool" anymore to make bread for each other.  *Yes, there are very good churches out there which are elder led. * But, the closest thing I see to the NT church is the contemporary small groups which meet in homes.
> 
> I welcome your thoughts.....(Huntinfool...you asked the questions, I am particularly interested in your thoughts).



Are you Bono?


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## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> Are you Bono?



Yes.

Except.....I don't guess I'm lookin' anymore.  The Deacon convinced me to quit.  I'm no preacher, so starting a church is out of the question.

Looks like I was on the right track all along.  HA!!!  I'm huntin' on Sundays this year fellas!


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## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> Yes.



I knew it!


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## stringmusic

JB0704 said:


> Yes.
> 
> Except.....I don't guess I'm lookin' anymore.  The Deacon convinced me to quit.  I'm no preacher, so starting a church is out of the question.
> 
> Looks like I was on the right track all along.  HA!!!  I'm huntin' on Sundays this year fellas!



pssst, sometimes we hunt on Sundays and one of them ducks hunts might fall on a Sunday, glad you'll be able to make it...... don't tell anybody though.


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## JB0704

stringmusic said:


> pssst, sometimes we hunt on Sundays and one of them ducks hunts might fall on a Sunday, glad you'll be able to make it...... don't tell anybody though.



Keeping it quiet


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## gordon 2

Huntinfool said:


> They are either not truly followers OR they are very immature believers.
> 
> My personal example is that we have a church of roughly 250 members.  Probably 125-150 show up on Sundays regularly.  Of that 125-150, my personal observation is that maybe 75 are deeply committed and maturing followers of Christ.  The rest are in one of the two categories listed about IMO (and I'm not the judge of their heart...just to clarify).
> 
> It is SOOOOOO worth it to be in fellowship with those 75, to grow along side them, to serve with them and to work to change the "75" into "250" along with them.
> 
> For me, our church is 75 strong and it is blemished....but a beautiful bride that Christ will be proud to return and redeem for himself on the Day of the Lord.
> 
> I think, too often, we concentrate on the other 50-75 and refuse invest the emotional capital to get to know the 75.



Ah! I now understand and think you make a good point.


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## gemcgrew

"The pastors of America have metamorphosed into a company of shopkeepers, and the shops they keep are churches. They are preoccupied with shopkeeper's concerns – how to keep the customers happy, how to lure customers away from competitors down the street, how to package the goods so that the customers will pay out more money. Some of them are very good shopkeepers. They attract a lot of customers, pull in great sums of money, develop splendid reputations. Yet it is still shopkeeping: religious shopkeeping, to be sure, but shopkeeping all the same. The marketing strategies of the fast-food franchise occupy the waking minds of these entrepreneurs; while asleep they dream of he kind of success that will get the attention of journalists. . .The biblical fact is that there are no successful churches. There are, instead, communities of sinners, gathered before God week after week in towns and villages all over the world. . . . The pastors' responsibility is to keep the community attentive to God. It is this responsibility that is being abandoned in spades." (Eugene Peterson, "Working the Angles")

I think we are living in a time where believers are abandoning the local churches. They are content in their praying, studying and waiting.


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## 1gr8bldr

Hey JB, I was in your shoes not long ago. I left my church of 30 plus years in search of something that was real. I bounced all over the place, pausing for awhile at some and only once at others. I finially gave up and went back to my home church. I figured I would just have to tolerate it. But after my 3 year commitment was up, I never went back. The last 8 months were burdensome. I thought It would never get to the end. My big issue was doctrine. I did not wish to start a debate so I kept my beliefs to myself and waited it out. I hope you find a fellowship, but I fear your headed in the same direction.


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## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> Looks like I was on the right track all along.  HA!!!  I'm huntin' on Sundays this year fellas!



Your true motives come out 



gemcgrew said:


> I think we are living in a time where believers are abandoning the local churches. They are content in their praying, studying and waiting.



And this abondonment is unBiblical if they don't replace that worship.  We are called to meet with like minded believers.  It is the NT model....it is what Christ wants and what the Apostles preached.




JB....I feel your pain.  Church shopping is the absolute worse thing I believe there is....yes...even worse than traveling with little kids.  There are so many different factors that come into play...and I believe you've hit on most of them.  You've got to worry about the doctrine....you've got to worry about the model of church...you've got to worry about the 75 that HF is talking about...because let's face it....if those 75 don't include you into their core, you won't ever feel welcome.  It is hard to come in from the outside and be truly welcomed by the "in-crowd."  It is hard to be vulnerable to join the "in-crowd."  And usually, one spouse finds it easier to get along or asimilate in than the other.  And that brings about discord and long quiet rides home from church

I've been in your shoes.  I've been places before where we sacrifice on the doctrine in order to get that fellowship we as humans need.  I've been places before where we sacrifice on fellowship to get that doctrine and teaching we so desparately need.  I feel like these are the two sides of the church coin....and as many times as you flip the coin, it very very rarely lands on its edge to where you enjoy both sides.  It's been a long long time since I've been a part of a church where I didn't sacrifice one of these two sides of the coin.


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## JB0704

RJ, I really appreciate your post.



rjcruiser said:


> And this abondonment is unBiblical if they don't replace that worship.  We are called to meet with like minded believers.  It is the NT model....it is what Christ wants and what the Apostles preached.



I hunt, fish, "do life" with like minded believers all the time.  About 2 weeks ago I had about 25 of them over to my house for a fish fry.......



rjcruiser said:


> JB....I feel your pain.  Church shopping is the absolute worse thing I believe there is....yes...even worse than traveling with little kids.  There are so many different factors that come into play...and I believe you've hit on most of them.  You've got to worry about the doctrine....you've got to worry about the model of church...you've got to worry about the 75 that HF is talking about...because let's face it....if those 75 don't include you into their core, you won't ever feel welcome.  It is hard to come in from the outside and be truly welcomed by the "in-crowd."  It is hard to be vulnerable to join the "in-crowd."  And usually, one spouse finds it easier to get along or asimilate in than the other.  And that brings about discord and long quiet rides home from church



AMEN BROTHER!!!!  Preach it......



rjcruiser said:


> I've been in your shoes.  I've been places before where we sacrifice on the doctrine in order to get that fellowship we as humans need.  I've been places before where we sacrifice on fellowship to get that doctrine and teaching we so desparately need.  I feel like these are the two sides of the church coin....and as many times as you flip the coin, it very very rarely lands on its edge to where you enjoy both sides.  It's been a long long time since I've been a part of a church where I didn't sacrifice one of these two sides of the coin.



Dang, man.  You are nailing it!!

A problem I have, and I have alluded to this before, is that I already have "community" with believers.  I am very fortunate in the friend department.  My wife and I are very blessed with some very wonderful friends.  So, it's hard for me to "need" the organized church *socially*.  If that makes any sense.

As for doctrine, that is where my current structure falls short.  We (my wife and I, as well as our many friends who have abandoned the church recently for the same reasons I did) are "stagnating."  BTW, this forum has helped "scratch that itch" in a way....I have learned more about God and the Bible in 1.5 years on here than I did my last 5 years in church.

So, on any Sunday morning, I am forcing myself to visit a church where I know I am not known, and in many cases unwelcome if they really knew me, where my family will be made vulnerable to the negatives socially and doctrinally.  Where somebody will eventually tell me to "love it or leave it" (thanks for the reminder thedeacon).

I feel safer at home cutting grass.


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## jmharris23

This thread is full of lot's of good discussion and I wish I hadn't seen it so late 'cause I am not sure where to jump in. 

That said, I think most of you know I am a pastor and have been for almost 10 years, all at the same church. 

It's really hard for me to come at things from your point of view because the church has been a vital part of my life since birth and from what I gather by your posts, I see it in a much different light than you. 

As already stated, there are plenty of "bad" churches and some of them are the biggest ones, which is sad but unavoidable. 

There are also MANY who are doing their best to be the church that I believe God intends them to be. 

One of the things that church history has taught us is that the church in many ways mirrors the culture. For example, when the church began in mirrored the culture of the 1st century. Each age (dark or middle ages, enlightenment, industrial revolution, etc.) have influenced the church in one way or another. 

This is happening today as well. We live in an entertainment age so to speak and the church in many ways has fallen victim to that. 

I mention this just to say that I think it's unfair to be to jaded towards what is happening in church culture. The church is full of imperfect people, who are fighting the flesh every step of the way. 

Because of this, the church makes mistake after mistake. There never has been nor will there ever be a "perfect" church. 

Now with that out of the way, let me say again that there are plenty of churches that are trying. Some of them are huge, some of them are tiny. But I believe in all of these churches there it opportunity to get involved with like minded believers and worship in Spirit and Truth. 

Sure, churches ask for money. Some do not. In ten years of pastoring I have never asked for a special offering or held any type of drive to collect money. But I do preach what the bible says about being generous, giving, and supporting the ministry when I get to those passages in Scripture. The church asks for money because it needs money to do ministry. Is this abused in some places? Absolutely. 

The church I pastor is committee led and the congregation votes on most everything. Is this the best way? I would submit that it is not, but it's also not a hill worth dying on for me. 

I do believe in a plurality of elders, but even in that, somebody must take the lead. Someone always has to lead. So within this need for visionary leadership there is potential for abuse. Are there pastors who abuse this? Absolutely. 

What I'm getting at in this long rant and ramble is if you want to go to church then you are going to have to find one that's as close to what you want as you can and get over the things you don't like. 

If you don't want to go......then don't. Just don't make excuses or justifications as to why you are not going. 

There are no perfect churches. Everybody say it with me: There are no perfect churches. You know why? 

Because there are no perfect people, including you and I.


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## JB0704

JH23, I appreciate your post.

I probably need to clarify that I have no problem giving.  I enjoy it.  Even though I am not a member of any church, I still support several financially.  "Giving" is a good thing.  My only point with the check comment was that it seems that a potential churches interest in me is often (not always) limited to my contribution......

Who am I?  Does the church really want to know?  Who are you?  Is the church really willing to tell me?  If the _truthful_ (not canned generic) answer to either is "no" then we are not a church.....and we are wasting our time.

What I would like to know, since we must love the imperfections anyway, is where are the "lines."  Are there "hills to die for?"  If so, why do you judge mine as "excuses."

Your "excuses" are often my "reasons."  I have ntoiced a huge gap in understanding between those who are well established in their "church home" and those who are "refugees" like me.  You are comfortable in a church.  I am not.  

If the church had not been so integral in your life.  If the church had hurt you, and your loved ones, if the church had turned it's back on you, and used you, and your family, if the church represented a black mark in your life, would you honestly feel the way you do about it?


----------



## jmharris23

For starters I didn't meant to come across as harsh. I am not, but I am also very to the point and sometimes that doesn't come across well in written word. So for that I am sorry! 

I can only speak for me and my church. But anytime someone comes to our church I try and get to know them. If they visit for a few weeks I have them to my house for dinner when possible. So yes, I want to know you. 

Again, our church is very transparent and you'll know quickly who we are, "warts and all." 

The lines for me are doctrinal, and even then there are what are commonly called tier issues. I will include this writing from Al Mohler.



> First-level theological issues would include those doctrines most central and essential to the Christian faith. Included among these most crucial doctrines would be doctrines such as the Trinity, the full deity and humanity of Jesus Christ, justification by faith, and the authority of Scripture.
> 
> In the earliest centuries of the Christian movement, heretics directed their most dangerous attacks upon the church’s understanding of who Jesus is, and in what sense He is the very Son of God. Other crucial debates concerned the question of how the Son is related to the Father and the Holy Spirit. At historic turning-points such as the councils at Nicaea, Constantinople and Chalcedon, orthodoxy was vindicated and heresy was condemned – and these councils dealt with doctrines of unquestionable first-order importance. Christianity stands or falls on the affirmation that Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God.
> 
> The church quickly moved to affirm that the full deity and full humanity of Jesus Christ are absolutely necessary to the Christian faith. Any denial of what has become known as Nicaean-Chalcedonian Christology is, by definition, condemned as a heresy. The essential truths of the incarnation include the death, burial, and bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who deny these revealed truths are, by definition, not Christians.
> 
> The same is true with the doctrine of the Trinity. The early church clarified and codified its understanding of the one true and living God by affirming the full deity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit – while insisting that the Bible reveals one God in three persons.
> 
> In addition to the Christological and Trinitarian doctrines, the doctrine of justification by faith must also be included among these first-order truths. Without this doctrine, we are left with a denial of the Gospel itself, and salvation is transformed into some structure of human righteousness.
> 
> The truthfulness and authority of the Holy Scriptures must also rank as a first-order doctrine, for without an affirmation of the Bible as the very Word of God, we are left without any adequate authority for distinguishing truth from error.
> 
> These first-order doctrines represent the most fundamental truths of the Christian faith, and a denial of these doctrines represents nothing less than an eventual denial of Christianity itself.
> 
> The set of second-order doctrines is distinguished from the first-order set by the fact that believing Christians may disagree on the second-order issues, though this disagreement will create significant boundaries between believers. When Christians organize themselves into congregations and denominational forms, these boundaries become evident.
> 
> Second-order issues would include the meaning and mode of baptism. Baptists and Presbyterians, for example, fervently disagree over the most basic understanding of Christian baptism. The practice of infant baptism is inconceivable to the Baptist mind, while Presbyterians trace infant baptism to their most basic understanding of the covenant. Standing together on the first-order doctrines, Baptists and Presbyterians eagerly recognize each other as believing Christians, but recognize that disagreement on issues of this importance will prevent fellowship within the same congregation or denomination.
> 
> Christians across a vast denominational range can stand together on the first-order doctrines and recognize each other as authentic Christians, while understanding that the existence of second-order disagreements prevents the closeness of fellowship we would otherwise enjoy. A church either will recognize infant baptism, or it will not. That choice immediately creates a second-order conflict with those who take the other position by conviction.
> 
> In recent years, the issue of women serving as pastors has emerged as another second-order issue. Again, a church or denomination either will ordain women to the pastorate, or it will not. Second-order issues resist easy settlement by those who would prefer an either/or approach. Many of the most heated disagreements among serious believers take place at the second-order level, for these issues frame our understanding of the church and its ordering by the Word of God.
> 
> Third-order issues are doctrines over which Christians may disagree and remain in close fellowship, even within local congregations. I would put most of the debates over eschatology, for example, in this category. Christians who affirm the bodily, historical and victorious return of the Lord Jesus Christ may differ over timetable and sequence without rupturing the fellowship of the church. Christians may find themselves in disagreement over any number of issues related to the interpretation of difficult texts or the understanding of matters of common disagreement. Nevertheless, standing together on issues of more urgent importance, believers are able to accept one another without compromise when third-order issues are in question.



As long as the first order issues are right, I can worship with you. If they are not, I will die on that hill. Like the article inferred, I am more comfortable and look for a church that I can also agree with them on second order issues, for it makes the fellowship much sweeter. 

You are right that I am comfortable in church. I think you are wrong in assuming that I am comfortable because I or my family have never been hurt. 

My father was hurt deeply in the church I grew up in, over a stupid church political power struggle. Took him years to recover. 

As a pastor I have been hurt more than you can probably imagine. Think of it this way: I eat with my people, I am invited to their homes, even their family reunions and birthday parties. I share life with some of them several times a week. I hunt with them, fish with them, play golf with them. I love their children, and their children love me. I preach funerals for their mommas and daddys, their kids, their husbands and wives. 

I am involved in the deepest most intimate details of their lives. When they need me, they need me right then and I drop what I am doing and go to them. 

Then if by some chance I say something they don't agree with, or am forced to confront them on some biblical issue, or make a decision that is not popular, they turn on me. Talk behind my back. Shun my wife and I. It doesn't happen often, but it happens. When it does, it hurts.....deeply. 

So don't assume I don't know the pain of being involved in a church. I know it all to well. I still love the church. You know why? Because those people are faulty just like I am, and we all sin and make mistakes. 

When they do, I forgive them. I love them, and usually we work it out. We must do that, because we are a family. 

So yes, if the church hurts me, I will still feel the same way. In fact, maybe I love it even more.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> A problem I have, and I have alluded to this before, is that I already have "community" with believers.  I am very fortunate in the friend department.  My wife and I are very blessed with some very wonderful friends.  So, it's hard for me to "need" the organized church *socially*.  If that makes any sense.
> 
> As for doctrine, that is where my current structure falls short.  We (my wife and I, as well as our many friends who have abandoned the church recently for the same reasons I did) are "stagnating."  BTW, this forum has helped "scratch that itch" in a way....I have learned more about God and the Bible in 1.5 years on here than I did my last 5 years in church.
> 
> So, on any Sunday morning, I am forcing myself to visit a church where I know I am not known, and in many cases unwelcome if they really knew me, where my family will be made vulnerable to the negatives socially and doctrinally.  Where somebody will eventually tell me to "love it or leave it" (thanks for the reminder thedeacon).
> 
> I feel safer at home cutting grass.



I would say this.  

Make sure your fellowship with like-minded believers is more than just small talk and hanging out.  Make sure there is some discipleship and ministry in there as well.  If not, the fellowship really isn't Biblical fellowship.

Maybe you should start an in home Biblestudy on Friday nights to go along with your fish fry.



jmharris23 said:


> As a pastor I have been hurt more than you can probably imagine. Think of it this way: I eat with my people, I am invited to their homes, even their family reunions and birthday parties. I share life with some of them several times a week. I hunt with them, fish with them, play golf with them. I love their children, and their children love me. I preach funerals for their mommas and daddys, their kids, their husbands and wives.
> 
> I am involved in the deepest most intimate details of their lives. When they need me, they need me right then and I drop what I am doing and go to them.
> 
> Then if by some chance I say something they don't agree with, or am forced to confront them on some biblical issue, or make a decision that is not popular, they turn on me. Talk behind my back. Shun my wife and I. It doesn't happen often, but it happens. When it does, it hurts.....deeply.
> 
> So don't assume I don't know the pain of being involved in a church. I know it all to well. I still love the church. You know why? Because those people are faulty just like I am, and we all sin and make mistakes.
> 
> When they do, I forgive them. I love them, and usually we work it out. We must do that, because we are a family.
> 
> So yes, if the church hurts me, I will still feel the same way. In fact, maybe I love it even more.





A true picture of what a Pastor should be....a representation of what Christ did/does for us.


Reminds me of the parable of the unforgiving borrower.  The man was forgiven of so much debt by the king, yet couldn't forgive the pennies he was owed by his neighbor.  How often do we hold on to past grudges while we ask Christ to forgive us of our own sins?


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## JB0704

Thanks for the persective JH.  I think there is a line in church between "traditional" and "contemporary."  Where the pastors on the traditional side are more vulnerable to the situations you described because they invest so much in their congregants.  I ahve so much respect for those type of pastors.  The ones who "know" their congregants, who actually act according to their title.

I hope you also understand that I am more of a product of "contemporary" church, where the pastor seperates himself from the congregation.  Does not visit hospitals, family reunions, birthday parties, etc.  Where the pastor, as a matter of principle, will not drop anything for anybody else.  I can't tell you how many times I have heard a pastor say "I will not cheat my family for my ministry."  The crowd will yell "AMEN," and clap their hands.  How can such a statement be argued with.....I don't want them to cheat their family either.  There is a balance.  Often, the "contemporary" structure and practice is a reaction to the traditional structure and practice.  Men like you have been abused by congregations for hunreds of years.  Modern pastors have decided to give up on the "relational" aspect of leadership....and focus on the corporate side of things.

These churches are the ones which really turned me against "church" as a whole.....because I saw the drifting from the community aspect, and the tendency to become corpporate entertainment.  I became disenchanted with congregations full of people who are willing to judge those outside the church, but unwilling to "rock the boat" inside the church where certain thigns are clearly incorrect.

For instance, I know a church which fires people whenever there is any hint of disagreement with "the vision."   Without even discussing it with the individual losing their job.  "Being on board with the vision" is enforced with the paycheck......not biblical conflict resolution.  Hundreds of people attend this church knowing this practice, and not caring.....because they put on the greatest show on Sunday morning.....and their kids are entertained.

I appreciate you posting the "tiers" concept.  I have not got into my head where my "lines" are, because I have drawn my line at the church door for so long.....I can't really wrap my head around what I really believe I am looking for.....I just know what I am avoiding.  Also, I very much appreciate you discussing your willingness to know your congregants, and be open in your ministry.  That doesn't happen so much anymore.....it's a "traditional" / "contemporary" divide.

I am sorry you have dealt with the things you described at the hands of ungrateful people.  I often read the stuff you  and RonnieT write, and wish I lived close to your church....but I don't....and I have "preference" differences with my wife (she is the typical "contemporary" worshipper, and I have difficulty justifying forcing her to change that....excuses, excuses ).  

Then again, even if I did go, eventually, you guys would probably learn to hate me   I am a bit of an "odd duck."  I never really got along with "church people."  That could be my fault, I always assumed it was a refusal to conform....who knows.......


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## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> I
> 
> A true picture of what a Pastor should be....a representation of what Christ did/does for us.



I absolutely agree.  What he described is what I just don't see much of anymore.

The man I call my "family pastor" is a lot like that....and that is why I refer to him as such.  But he is now leading a church in another state.


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## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> and I have "preference" differences with my wife (she is the typical "contemporary" worshipper, and I have difficulty justifying forcing her to change that....excuses, excuses ).



Maybe you should love her as Christ loved the church and sacrifice your own preferences


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> I would say this.
> 
> Make sure your fellowship with like-minded believers is more than just small talk and hanging out.  Make sure there is some discipleship and ministry in there as well.  If not, the fellowship really isn't Biblical fellowship.
> 
> Maybe you should start an in home Biblestudy on Friday nights to go along with your fish fry.



Some of us do a good bit of Bible study.....just not at the fish fry   It is usually over the phone, or in person, relevant to a situation or a struggle.  Not huge gatherings, typically just the few who are involved.

We did have an organized "small group" for many years.  That faded, but the friendships remain.  Then, a few of us started another small group, and one of us even started a "home church."   These faded also.

Life, circumstance, family always seem to change people's willingness to be consistent.  Good idea, though, for sure.


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## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Maybe you should love her as Christ loved the church and sacrifice your own preferences



I could, but then I would have to suffer this every Sunday......



....I just don't think I'm strong enough to endure......

But, as stated, I have HUGE issues with the contemporary church's structure as listed previously.  Sounds like HF's and String's church gets it right.  I have difficulty finding one near home (and yes, I have been to all the local ones).


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## jmharris23

I do find your distinctions between "contemporary" church and "traditional"to be mostly spot on. What I also find is that many people want the experience of a contemporary church, i.e. the great music, the relevant stage lights and backgrounds, the comfortable seating, and on and on. 

They also want the traditional pastor. Well the reality is that usually you are not going to get both. I do believe that both style churches have "their place" within the church as a whole, and the congregant must decide what they want most. 

I wish you could come to our church, and I wouldn't "hate" you. I have lots of odd ducks


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## JB0704

jmharris23 said:


> They also want the traditional pastor. Well the reality is that usually you are not going to get both. I do believe that both style churches have "their place" within the church as a whole, and the congregant must decide what they want most.



 Great point.  I think I am lost in the middle right now.



jmharris23 said:


> I wish you could come to our church, and I wouldn't "hate" you. I have lots of odd ducks



That is a much bolder statement than you know


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## StriperAddict

*thanks & blessings; & farewell 4 now*

Altogether great post jm, just 1 highlight...


jmharris23 said:


> As long as the first order issues are right, I can worship with you. If they are not, I will die on that hill.


 
Myself as well. And I am in sorts here. 
It seems lately around some that _these_ are not as important as they once were...



> In addition to the Christological and Trinitarian doctrines, _the doctrine of justification by faith must also be included among these first-order truths_. Without this doctrine, we are left with a denial of the Gospel itself, and _salvation is transformed into some structure of human righteousness_.
> 
> The truthfulness and authority of the Holy Scriptures must also rank as a first-order doctrine, for without an affirmation of the Bible as the very Word of God, we are left without any adequate authority for distinguishing truth from error.
> 
> These first-order doctrines represent the most fundamental truths of the Christian faith, and a denial of these doctrines represents nothing less than an eventual denial of Christianity itself.


----------



## Artfuldodger

When I first joined this forum and relayed my beliefs and that I was raised a Baptist, I was told to "let go of my beef with the Baptist and go back to their church". (not exactly in those words). I responded that I don't have a problem with Baptists, Methodists, Holiness, or Catholics. I've been to lots of different denominations over the years including campground meetings, tent revivals, etc. I've never felt like a stranger in any Church of the Lord even though I don't agree with all their beliefs. We had a discussion on here before on what doctrines would keep you out of a certain Church. Pretty good reference. 
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=679813&highlight=mad
I personally have precious memories of every Church i've ever been in from a huge Cathedral in Seville, Spain to my Grandmother's Holiness foot washing Church in Toombs County.
I no longer follow this belief:  Christianity stands or falls on the affirmation that Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God.(I believe in the diety of Jesus, just not that he is God the Father reincarnated) I'm with the "Mormon Cult" on this one.
There are other first order issues I don't believe. Such as:
"Justification By Faith" "OSAS" I'm with the Catholics on this one.
"The Trinity" Pentecostals don't believe in this. Are they not Christians?
"Soul Sleep" I'm with the "Cult of JW's" on this one.
"Bodies of "flesh and bones" I don't think we go to Heaven without a body of "flesh & bones" somewhat like the "Cult of Mormons" except they also believe God has a body. (Image of God) I do think that Mary was made fertile by God.
I don't believe we are prechosen to be saved. Like half the Christians do.
I think Jesus was the son of God but not God. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. I think when we get to Heaven we will get to see God and Jesus as two seperate beings. 
To me this is what makes someone a Christian. This is my statement of faith. I believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God. That he died on Calvary for our sins. I believe that he physically arose from the dead and ascended into Heaven. I believe that we will one day physically arise and ascend to Heaven or cast into an eternal Lake of fire. (He11). I believe Jesus is the mediator between us and God. I believe that the only way to get to Heaven is through Jesus. Jesus is the only way, period.
So in many ways i'm like my Baptist parents, brothers, & sisters and love to fellowship with them.
But in other ways i'm very different. It was also suggested to me to start my own Church. I think we already have too many divisive  Churches some with lukewarm Christians, some with hot Christians. I would like to see the return to the one Mother Church.


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## Artfuldodger

Quote: 
The church quickly moved to affirm that the full deity and full humanity of Jesus Christ are absolutely necessary to the Christian faith. Any denial of what has become known as Nicaean-Chalcedonian Christology is, by definition, condemned as a heresy. The essential truths of the incarnation include the death, burial, and bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who deny these revealed truths are, by definition, not Christians.

The same is true with the doctrine of the Trinity. The early church clarified and codified its understanding of the one true and living God by affirming the full deity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit – while insisting that the Bible reveals one God in three persons. End Quote
Would ya'll assume Oneness Pentecostals aren't Christian? I would assume they are some of the best we got. 
I'm not saying I agree with Oneness any more than the Trinity. I'm just showing that their is more to these "First Order Issues"
Would the deity of Mary be a "First Order Issue"? What about the "Gifts of the Holy Spirit"?

If Jesus was God verses:
•	Jesus said, "The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." (John 13:16) Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me." (John 5:37,6:37) The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father (John 14:26) and Jesus (John 16:7), thus making Jesus inferior to the Father and the Holy Ghost inferior to both the Father and Jesus.
•	"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth." (John 14:16)
•	Jesus prays to God. (John 17:1-3)
•	Jesus has faith in God. (Hebrews 2:17,18, Hebrews 3:2)
•	Jesus is a servant of God. (Acts 3:13)
•	Jesus does not know things God knows. (Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)
•	Jesus worships God. (John 4:22)
•	Jesus has one who is God to him. (Revelation 3:12)
•	Jesus is in subjection to God. (1 Corinthians 15:28)
•	Jesus' head is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
•	Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God. (Hebrews 5:7)
•	Jesus is given lordship by God. (Acts 2:36)
•	Jesus is exalted by God.(Acts 5:31)
•	Jesus is made high priest by God. (Hebrews 5:10)
•	Jesus is given authority by God. (Philippians 2:9)
•	Jesus is given kingship by God. (Luke 1:32,33)
•	Jesus is given judgment by God. (Acts 10:42)
•	"God raised [Jesus] from the dead". (Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:15)
•	Jesus is at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34)
•	Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man. (1 Timothy 2:5)
•	God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
•	Jesus did not think being "equal with God" was graspable. (Philippians 2:6)
•	"Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" (Matthew 27:46)


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## jmharris23

Artfuldodger, with that amount of confusion it might be best to just start another thread. It's really not related to jb's discussion. 

I love ya and I am not trying to be mean or spiteful. But your posts indicate to me that you have a real mixed match belief system and have created " artfuldodgerism" as your own religion by taking what works " for you" out of every "form" of Christianity you know anything about. 

This is scary and dangerous and what I would love to see you do is try and forget all the stuff you think you know and just go read your bible. Read it and read it and read it, listen to what the bible says about God, about Jesus, about the Spirit. Don't listen to others yet.......just read, read, read and pray, pray, pray.


----------



## Artfuldodger

jmharris23 said:


> Artfuldodger, with that amount of confusion it might be best to just start another thread. It's really not related to jb's discussion.
> 
> I love ya and I am not trying to be mean or spiteful. But your posts indicate to me that you have a real mixed match belief system and have created " artfuldodgerism" as your own religion by taking what works " for you" out of every "form" of Christianity you know anything about.
> 
> This is scary and dangerous and what I would love to see you do is try and forget all the stuff you think you know and just go read your bible. Read it and read it and read it, listen to what the bible says about God, about Jesus, about the Spirit. Don't listen to others yet.......just read, read, read and pray, pray, pray.



True, and I don't think you are being mean or spiteful. But what I was trying to convey is that one can find goodness and fellowship in almost any Church. I know for a fact I won't find a Church that follows everything I believe and I doubt no one else will either. Jesus is the only way and mediator is what's important to me. That's my only first tier belief.
The other thing I was trying to express was that what is absolutely necessary to the Christian faith for you might be different for someone else.
People go to school online why not Church? Would not this forum be considered Christian fellowship? What about spending time in a hospital talking to patients, would that be Christian fellowship? Singing or being a pallbearer at a funeral, would that be considered Christian fellowship?

I will try to increase my Bible study. I grew up with the KJV and sometimes have trouble with the Old English interpretations though. I wish I could read Greek.


----------



## The Original Rooster

This may be just "another church thread" but it's the best thread I've seen in this forum in a while. I've really enjoyed reading the conversation and I've got a lot out of it. 
It seems there are a lot of us out there right now who are disillusioned about what many church's have become. I know I'm one of them too, and I thought I was alone. It's good to know that I'm not.
And JB, I'm with you about having to sit through another Sunday of "Six flags over Jesus" as I like to call it. Church is not a corporate theme park, although it seems to be going that way. 
Well, I have no answers, but I sincerely appreciate the opinions given on this thread. Thanks ya'll!


----------



## JB0704

RoosterTodd said:


> This may be just "another church thread" but it's the best thread I've seen in this forum in a while. I've really enjoyed reading the conversation and I've got a lot out of it.
> It seems there are a lot of us out there right now who are disillusioned about what many church's have become. I know I'm one of them too, and I thought I was alone. It's good to know that I'm not.
> And JB, I'm with you about having to sit through another Sunday of "Six flags over Jesus" as I like to call it. Church is not a corporate theme park, although it seems to be going that way.
> Well, I have no answers, but I sincerely appreciate the opinions given on this thread. Thanks ya'll!



Thanks for your comments.   I liked your "Six Flags over Jesus" take on things.   I always called it "canned Jesus," but it is a similar concept.


----------



## Huntinfool

> I get the sense you have a need to be "accepted" by those in authority. Perhaps this is a wrong sense, perhaps it is a right one. But, it is a sense I have had about you for a while, and this is the first time I have mentioned it.....because it is counter-productive. Hope you understand the point I am making with that.



If you could explain that and tell me what gives you that sense, I might be able to respond to it.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> If you could explain that and tell me what gives you that sense, I might be able to respond to it.



I hope this makes sense.  I don't want to come across as harsh, or blunt.  I put the comment out there, so I understand that I need to explain it.    

First, I put it up there in response to the multitude of assumptions, or "senses," you get about me.  My point was / is that we can't really know much about the other beyond what is actually typed.  When we read into things we start chasing rabbits and miss each other's postition completely.  I can't debate your "senses."  I would much rather stick to the topic at hand.

That being said, I get the "sense" that you have a desire to be accepted by those in authority.  Such as elders, preachers, etc.  Or, more directly, you want to be liked by those folks....or have "status" within the church.  This may because you are a PK and understand how people in authority see themselves, and how they view others.  Acceptance into that crowd might seem like a goal one should strive for.  For me personally, I don't care one bit about that stuff.  

If I am wrong, I will apologize.

Where we may differ is that I have spent an entire life being judged, belittled, and "outcast" by those types of people for who I am, what I have done, etc.  A lot of this was self-inflicted, some of it was a result of circumstance.  But I have seen too many "great men" be absolute disasters to put a whole lot of stock in a person based on their position.  So, I have no desire to be "liked" by those in authority.  If they appreciate me for who I am, great.  If they are good people, I will appreciate them back.  But their title / position means absolutely nothing to me on it's own.  It's a man's actions, heart, etc. that lead me to give them the trust that is so often demanded based on title, not deeds.

So, currently, where I see us as different is that you might be a person who wants to "be somebody" in your church.  I have never wanted to be anybody in the church, and my "status" has meant absoltuely nothing.  I do what I do, serve how I serve, and be the best person I can be.....if that's not good enough, then so be it.  I will sleep fine tonight.

Again, please accept my apologies if I am wrong.


----------



## Huntinfool

"I don't care whether the leaders in my church like me or not"

Is that what this means?



> That being said, I get the "sense" that you have a desire to be accepted by those in authority. Such as elders, preachers, etc. Or, more directly, you want to be liked by those folks....or have "status" within the church. This may because you are a PK and understand how people in authority see themselves, and how they view others. Acceptance into that crowd might seem like a goal one should strive for. For me personally, I don't care one bit about that stuff.




I absolutely have a desire for approval from the spiritual leaders of the local body I belong to.  I would not put my family under that leadership if I did not think highly of them as men and as men of God.

Do I want to be a cool kid?  No.



> Where we may differ is that I have spent an entire life being judged, belittled, and "outcast" by those types of people for who I am, what I have done, etc.



You're right...we do differ here.  I've spent the past several years being lifted up, encouraged and restored by godly men in our church who know every sorted detail of the things I've done....and the things they know about make a divorced man look like a choir boy.


----------



## Huntinfool

> I have never wanted to be anybody in the church, and my "status" has meant absoltuely nothing. I do what I do, serve how I serve, and be the best person I can be.....if that's not good enough, then so be it. I will sleep fine tonight.



Well, if this is the measure, then I suppose you're successful, right?


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Well, if this is the measure, then I suppose you're successful, right?





This one went over my head.  Could you clarify?


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I absolutely have a desire for approval from the spiritual leaders of the local body I belong to.  I would not put my family under that leadership if I did not think highly of them as men and as men of God.
> 
> Do I want to be a cool kid?  No.



Then we have different trust issues.



Huntinfool said:


> You're right...we do differ here.  I've spent the past several years being lifted up, encouraged and restored by godly men in our church who know every sorted detail of the things I've done....and the things they know about make a divorced man look like a choir boy.



You allude to this a lot.  And I understand that you appreciate your elders.  Now, what if you weren't HF.  Imagine you were some fella in the back row who was shy and quiet, had spent a few years in church, but never really established a relationship with anybody.  Imagine you did not tithe faithfully.  Imagine that you were not in the band.  Imagine that the pastor still didn't know the names of your kids.........

.....would those same men have gone to the same lengths for you?  Maybe, maybe not.  From what I can tell you were a "founding member."  Seems like there was an established relationship there.

And then, when you tell me I am the "unluckiest" Christian around.  I think you may want to look around your community and see what percentage is unchurched.  Discover how many of those folks' story is similar to mine.....then discover that you are the exception....and not the rule.


----------



## rjcruiser

Way off topic....but just to get HF thinking about something other than churches and being the "cool kid."  


Just an FYI for others, this is what HF turned down this November


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> Then we have different trust issues.
> 
> 
> 
> You allude to this a lot.  And I understand that you appreciate your elders.  Now, what if you weren't HF.  Imagine you were some fella in the back row who was shy and quiet, had spent a few years in church, but never really established a relationship with anybody.  Imagine you did not tithe faithfully.  Imagine that you were not in the band.  Imagine that the pastor still didn't know the names of your kids.........
> 
> .....would those same men have gone to the same lengths for you?  Maybe, maybe not.  From what I can tell you were a "founding member."  Seems like there was an established relationship there.
> 
> And then, when you tell me I am the "unluckiest" Christian around.  I think you may want to look around your community and see what percentage is unchurched.  Discover how many of those folks' story is similar to mine.....then discover that you are the exception....and not the rule.



Back on topic.

Don't you think you should desire to be approved by those in Spiritual Leadership?  I mean, secondary from being approved by God....but didn't Timothy seek Paul's approval?  How much of an encouragement to be approved by those who are Godly men.


Also, don't you think it is not only the responsibility of the leaders to get to know those who sit in the back row, but also the responsibility of those in the back row to get to know the leaders?  Can't just have one side of the coin.  Both sides are there and they both have to work for it to be successful.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Don't you think you should desire to be approved by those in Spiritual Leadership?  I mean, secondary from being approved by God....but didn't Timothy seek Paul's approval?  How much of an encouragement to be approved by those who are Godly men.



I guess it depends on who those are in spiritual leadership....doesn't it?

I have know a bunch of "great men of God" who were actually complete scoundrels.  I put a whole lot more emphasis on actions than title......which is why I think a relationship must be established with congregants.




rjcruiser said:


> Also, don't you think it is not only the responsibility of the leaders to get to know those who sit in the back row, but also the responsibility of those in the back row to get to know the leaders?  Can't just have one side of the coin.  Both sides are there and they both have to work for it to be successful.



Who is calling who the "leader?"  If a man wants to be a "pastor," then he should be a pastor.  We can say the responsibility goes in both directions, but I think a solid biblical case can be built that one does not excuse the other.  Additionally, I think we can build a solid case that those in leadership positions have the mandate to "lead."  

Leadership does not excuse it's failures on followers.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> I guess it depends on who those are in spiritual leadership....doesn't it?



Absolutely.




JB0704 said:


> Who is calling who the "leader?"  If a man wants to be a "pastor," then he should be a pastor.  We can say the responsibility goes in both directions, but I think a solid biblical case can be built that one does not excuse the other.  Additionally, I think we can build a solid case that those in leadership positions have the mandate to "lead."
> 
> Leadership does not excuse it's failures on followers.



True.  But you can never have a friendship or a relationship with someone who won't put the time into it.  Just like a marriage...takes two people who want to be there.  If one of them doesn't want it, no matter how bad the other does, it just won't work.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Then we have different trust issues.



I think you're right....and I think that might be the understatement of the year!  Ha!





If you've spent several years in a church and haven't established any relationships, then it's likely not the church that's the problem.

If you've spent several years in a church and the pastor still doesn't know the names of your kids, then the church is either very large (and then I understand...but someone in leadership should), or you need to find a new church.

I think we started attending our church very close to its beginning.  At that point, I had never lived in this county before, knew absolutely nobody and had basically zero relationships in Georgia.  I didn't know a single soul in the church when we started attending.

I have seen those men go to great lengths for anyone who struggles in our church and is open to their help.  I have also seen them reach out to people who were former attenders but left long ago...because they knew they had no one else to help them.

There are lots of people out there who have "given up" on the church for various reasons.

Most of the people I've met who "gave up" fit this description to a "T" (please note "most"):


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> True.  But you can never have a friendship or a relationship with someone who won't put the time into it.  Just like a marriage...takes two people who want to be there.  If one of them doesn't want it, no matter how bad the other does, it just won't work.



Agreed.

But, let's say a fella has fallen from grace.  REstoration is now the mandate.  Should the actions of the church be based on the fallen's previous actions?

Or, do the leaders ahve to go and get the "lost sheep?"  Regardless of who he was to them?  It's an honest question.....I think there are two way of looking at it.  One is the lost sheep, the other is the prodigal son.  Not sure which applies.

I tend to think that the lost sheep applies.  And the leaders have their responsibilities whether the fallen has been a good congregant or not.


----------



## Huntinfool

What RJ doesn't know is that I'm really opting out this year to give him another year to scout that property for me.  

I'm 100% confident in his lack of shooting ability, so there is no fear whatsoever, on my part, that my giant from last year won't be 2 years older and waiting for me to slide an arrow through his ribcage in November 2013.

I figure, by that point, he'll push 170 or so.  I'm considering this year QDM.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I think you're right....and I think that might be the understatement of the year!  Ha!



If I send you a long-winded PM, will you read it and give an honest response?  I have more to say on the subject, but have zero desire to post it out here......




Huntinfool said:


> There are lots of people out there who have "given up" on the church for various reasons.
> 
> Most of the people I've met who "gave up" fit this description to a "T"



Honestly, that is what those who want to defend the church say about others to make themselves feel better about the church's failures.  Wouldn't it be better to focus on the things people say which are correct rather than belittle those who have legitimate issues with the church?

I mean, good grief, every church wants people to come on Sunday, but they want to blame them when they don't.....

"Me" has nothing to do with it, HF.  I wish you would get beyond that....and focus ont he points at hand (which was the point of the whole "acceptance" conmment to start with).


----------



## Huntinfool

> Or, do the leaders ahve to go and get the "lost sheep?" Regardless of who he was to them? It's an honest question.....I think there are two way of looking at it. One is the lost sheep, the other is the prodigal son. Not sure which applies.



I depends entirely on whether the lost sheep desires to be found.


You can lead a lost sheep to living water, but.....


----------



## Huntinfool

> If I send you a long-winded PM, will you read it and give an honest response? I have more to say on the subject, but have zero desire to post it out here......



Absolutey!  You can say a lot of things about me...but I don't think you can accuse me of not reading what you post or being honest about how I feel on something!


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> But, let's say a fella has fallen from grace.  REstoration is now the mandate.  Should the actions of the church be based on the fallen's previous actions?
> 
> Or, do the leaders ahve to go and get the "lost sheep?"  Regardless of who he was to them?  It's an honest question.....I think there are two way of looking at it.  One is the lost sheep, the other is the prodigal son.  Not sure which applies.
> 
> I tend to think that the lost sheep applies.  And the leaders have their responsibilities whether the fallen has been a good congregant or not.



I think both apply.  Not sure the Matt 18 thread got this answer...but I know HF and I've said it before....the whole goal of it is restoration.  Bringing that lost one back.



Huntinfool said:


> What RJ doesn't know is that I'm really opting out this year to give him another year to scout that property for me.
> 
> I'm 100% confident in his lack of shooting ability, so there is no fear whatsoever, on my part, that my giant from last year won't be 2 years older and waiting for me to slide an arrow through his ribcage in November 2013.
> 
> I figure, by that point, he'll push 170 or so.  I'm considering this year QDM.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Just an FYI for others, this is what HF turned down this November



Since we're off topic.....

I got these running around here in Ga.....just have no idea how to hunt them.  Thanks to a certain member on this forum, I may have an instructor in the spring


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Absolutey!  You can say a lot of things about me...but I don't think you can accuse me of not reading what you post or being honest about how I feel on something!



Sometimes I get the feeling you skim a bit


----------



## Huntinfool

> Honestly, that is what those who want to defend the church say about others to make themselves feel better about the church's failures. Wouldn't it be better to focus on the things people say which are correct rather than belittle those who have legitimate issues with the church?
> 
> I mean, good grief, every church wants people to come on Sunday, but they want to blame them when they don't.....
> 
> "Me" has nothing to do with it, HF. I wish you would get beyond that....and focus ont he points at hand (which was the point of the whole "acceptance" conmment to start with).




There is a LOT wrong with a LOT of churches.  No argument there.

What I have observed over the past decade or so is that most of the people who have given up on church have done so for selfish and self-centered reasons.

There are absolutely those out there with legitimate complaints and every single local church has things they need to work on.  But, for the most part, the people who have legit issues are the people who recognize ungodly leadership, leave their current church for that reason and go intentionally to find another body that is being led by godly men.  

I've just never met a mature believer who has told me they literally cannot find one church that is being led in a godly manner.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Since we're off topic.....
> 
> I got these running around here in Ga.....just have no idea how to hunt them. Thanks to a certain member on this forum, I may have an instructor in the spring



See JB, now I'm starting to like you a little more every day.  I'm sure that by, oh say, mid-March we could be GREAT buddies.  Maybe we take a Saturday and do some fellowshipping around that particular area?


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> Since we're off topic.....
> 
> I got these running around here in Ga.....just have no idea how to hunt them.  Thanks to a certain member on this forum, I may have an instructor in the spring



Well...if you want someone who's gotten a turkey with a bow...pm me.


----------



## rjcruiser

Huntinfool said:


> I've just never met a mature believer who has told me they literally cannot find one church that is being led in a godly manner.



godly leadership isn't usually the issue.  It is usually a handful of secondary issues that boil up into "I just don't see myself continuing on at that church."


----------



## Huntinfool

They all boil up to leadership, though, don't they?  If there are secondary issues, it's a leadership problem.

I'll say this....from what I know...if there is anyone who I would say has a legit excuse to "give up" it's you guys.....but you haven't and I think that says a lot.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> See JB, now I'm starting to like you a little more every day.  I'm sure that by, oh say, mid-March we could be GREAT buddies.  Maybe we take a Saturday and do some fellowshipping around that particular area?



If you go back through your PM's, you will find one where I was hinting around at needing help learning to turkey hunt.........

Anyway, I have worked out a "hunt-swap" with a very generous person on here....gonna be a fun fall and spring!


----------



## Huntinfool

> Sometimes I get the feeling you skim a bit




Me????

I resemble that remark!  I mean....I resent that remark!


----------



## Huntinfool

> If you go back through your PM's, you will find one where I was hinting around at needing help learning to turkey hunt.........
> 
> Anyway, I have worked out a "hunt-swap" with a very generous person on here....gonna be a fun fall and spring!



I'm just kidding man.  Looks like you've got a great place for spring.  As long as there aren't 15 other turkey hunters out there, you should be golden.

You know I can't hunt with you.  You're unclean, a non-church-goer and that giant red "D" on your turkey vest would scare all the birds away!


----------



## rjcruiser

Huntinfool said:


> They all boil up to leadership, though, don't they?  If there are secondary issues, it's a leadership problem.



Mmm...no I don't think so.  There are secondary issues at my current church that sometimes have me discouraged.  The leadership model is Biblical.



Huntinfool said:


> I'll say this....from what I know...if there is anyone who I would say has a legit excuse to "give up" it's you guys.....but you haven't and I think that says a lot.



Thanks for the encouragement


----------



## jmharris23

JB0704 said:


> Imagine you were some fella in the back row who was shy and quiet, had spent a few years in church, but never really established a relationship with anybody.  Imagine you did not tithe faithfully.  Imagine that you were not in the band.  Imagine that the pastor still didn't know the names of your kids.........
> 
> .....would those same men have gone to the same lengths for you?  Maybe, maybe not.



JB, I am just gonna be honest and say no, they probably would not. But I hope to give you a little insight here. 

The church I pastor has around 300 attenders though only around 200-250 show up each week. Some of them are on the 1st and 3rd Sunday rotation I think 

That said, even in a church as small as mine, it is nearly impossible to be "intensely involved" in the life of that many people. 

The people's whose lives I tend to be involved in are those who for various reasons ...."stand out." 

What I mean by this is either they are leaders in the church, i.e. deacons, elders, SS teachers....etc. or they come to me and ask me to be involved with them in some sort of way. 

If I have a fella that slips into the worship service on Sunday morning as it begins, and runs to his car as soon as the service is over, and never joins a small group of some sort, then the chances are good that I nor any other church leader will be very involved in his life. I have always made the assumption that if that if that shy, quiet guy sat on the back row for a while and never got himself involved in the church in a deeper way, then he probably didn't want to be? 

Am I wrong here?


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> There are absolutely those out there with legitimate complaints and every single local church has things they need to work on.  But, for the most part, the people who have legit issues are the people who recognize ungodly leadership, leave their current church for that reason and go intentionally to find another body that is being led by godly men.
> 
> I've just never met a mature believer who has told me they literally cannot find one church that is being led in a godly manner.



I know there are godly men leading Godly churches out there.  I think we have a few regular posters here who do so.

But, when we turn around and blame the problems on those who "see" the problems, then we get stuck in a groupthink mentality......where everybody who has a different opinion is now an enemy....and nothing ever gets addressed.

Like I have said many times on here....there are many things I miss about church.  But, there are many things which make me hurt just thinking about.  And I am tired of being blamed for it.  I would rather have an honest discussion of the facts rather than a "you just want everything your way" debate.  It's got nothing to do with that.....and everything to do with a genuine concern for the way things are.

I don't "need" to be anybody.  But, I also don't want my family to be vulnerable to the mess.......so, what does a man do?

Working on your PM......may take a while.....


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I'm just kidding man.  Looks like you've got a great place for spring.  As long as there aren't 15 other turkey hunters out there, you should be golden.



Got them all to myself, well, me and one other fella who also has no clue how to kill 'em.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Mmm...no I don't think so. There are secondary issues at my current church that sometimes have me discouraged. The leadership model is Biblical.




I guess my point is, though, are the secondary issues reason enough to leave the church and relationships you've been committed to?  We've said many times, no church has everything right.  So the question is, what are the deal breakers?  I'd have a hard time thinking of one that would fall outside of a major leadership issue.



I think Christians (in a generic sense) treat churches like the world treats marriages these days (actually Christians treat marriage the same way).  When something tough comes along, it's easier to walk away than do the incredibly difficult things necesarry to restore it to what it should be.


----------



## JB0704

jmharris23 said:


> If I have a fella that slips into the worship service on Sunday morning as it begins, and runs to his car as soon as the service is over, and never joins a small group of some sort, then the chances are good that I nor any other church leader will be very involved in his life. I have always made the assumption that if that if that shy, quiet guy sat on the back row for a while and never got himself involved in the church in a deeper way, then he probably didn't want to be?
> 
> Am I wrong here?



Sometimes.

Right now, every church I visit, I am that guy.  But I also know where I have been.....the leaders don't.   And some that do want nothing to do with me.


----------



## Huntinfool

> But, when we turn around and blame the problems on those who "see" the problems, then we get stuck in a groupthink mentality......where everybody who has a different opinion is now an enemy....and nothing ever gets addressed.



I don't blame those who  "see".

Those who "see", point it out and run have very little credibility with me though.  Those who "see" and help turn the Titanic, I have incredible respect for.

We all see the problems.  I don't think there's anybody blind enough to ignore that they are there.


----------



## jmharris23

JB0704 said:


> Sometimes.
> 
> Right now, every church I visit, I am that guy.  But I also know where I have been.....the leaders don't.   And some that do want nothing to do with me.



Well.....I can't speak for them. I will say that that a leader of a church that doesn't represent the grace and mercy of Christ is a poor leader. 

I will also say that unless you are scheduling meetings with these leaders and telling them where you have been and where you are and where you want to be.....it's mighty unfair to come here on the good 'ol internets and say they want nothing to do with you. 

If you are doing all that and they want nothing to do with you, then shame on them.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Those who "see", point it out and run have very little credibility with me though.  Those who "see" and help turn the Titanic, I have incredible respect for.



I don't know how to say this more clearly than copying from a local church's values page:



> We Aren’t Afraid To Fight
> We will aggressively defend our unity and the vision that God has given us through our Pastor. (Ephesians 4:3)



There is no turning that ship.  And that^^^^is where the modern church is going.....almost every "contemporary" church I have been in has a similar "value."


----------



## JB0704

jmharris23 said:


> I will also say that unless you are scheduling meetings with these leaders and telling them where you have been and where you are and where you want to be.....it's mighty unfair to come here on the good 'ol internets and say they want nothing to do with you.



I have tried, unsuccesfully, to schedule meetings with a few of them.


----------



## jmharris23

Well then that's sad and I am sorry.


----------



## JB0704

jmharris23 said:


> Well then that's sad and I am sorry.



The problem is that I (and several others) had a relatively ugly split with my last church.....and I guess my reputation proceeds me.....even though nobody has ever asked for "my side."

Seems like there is also a gossip problem in the church.

But, a lot of it goes to the "contemporary" / "traditional" structure....where relationships are avoided by the leaders.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I guess my point is, though, are the secondary issues reason enough to leave the church and relationships you've been committed to?  We've said many times, no church has everything right.  So the question is, what are the deal breakers?  I'd have a hard time thinking of one that would fall outside of a major leadership issue.



I had a "hills to die for" thread a while back. I think doctrine / structure are the "biggies."  But.....often the problems here are hidden beneath smaller issues.

Gossip, for instance, is something that is practiced often.  Now, most churches will say they are against gossip, yet, when it is confronted, it becomes a "structural" issue...where there is no way for a congregant to walk the Mathew 18 path with the offending party.



Huntinfool said:


> I think Christians (in a generic sense) treat churches like the world treats marriages these days (actually Christians treat marriage the same way).  When something tough comes along, it's easier to walk away than do the incredibly difficult things necesarry to restore it to what it should be.



Again, when a church is specifically structured so that the head pastor cannot be confronted because they are "defending unity" than there is no way to effectively confront anything.......and the person has to "love it or leave it."  Then, they become nomaic Christians, jumping from one "home" to the next.

Eventually, they wake up and realize that they aren't looking for a "new home"......they never had one to start with.


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## Huntinfool

Why did it get "ugly"?


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## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> I had a "hills to die for" thread a while back. I think doctrine / structure are the "biggies."  But.....often the problems here are hidden beneath smaller issues.
> 
> Gossip, for instance, is something that is practiced often.  Now, most churches will say they are against gossip, yet, when it is confronted, it becomes a "structural" issue...where there is no way for a congregant to walk the Mathew 18 path with the offending party.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, when a church is specifically structured so that the head pastor cannot be confronted because they are "defending unity" than there is no way to effectively confront anything.......and the person has to "love it or leave it."  Then, they become nomaic Christians, jumping from one "home" to the next.
> 
> Eventually, they wake up and realize that they aren't looking for a "new home"......they never had one to start with.



I get it. I get it. 

Some churches worship the pastor. We agree on that. 

Don't go to those churches. They will eventually collapse anyway.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Some churches worship the pastor. We agree on that.
> 
> Don't go to those churches. They will eventually collapse anyway.



Exactly.

Now, let me find a church which is a community of believers, and not a business organized around some "visionary," and I will attend it as long as they are sound on the "biggies."

It's that simple.

But, it's also that complicated.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Why did it get "ugly"?



Good people got hurt in a very bad ways based on gossip, and a total lack of Mathew 18 style conflict resolution.  Those of us who attempted to confront this incorrect action were given the "nay-sayer" treatment.....which is apparently worse than adultery because it threatens "unity."  

It was just a mess, man.  I wasn't screaming anything from the mountaintops, justr trying to have direct conversations with people who didn't care to have them.


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## jmharris23

JB0704 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Now, let me find a church which is a community of believers, and not a business organized around some "visionary," and I will attend it as long as they are sound on the "biggies."
> 
> It's that simple.
> 
> But, it's also that complicated.



You just described my church to a T.


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## rjcruiser

Huntinfool said:


> I guess my point is, though, are the secondary issues reason enough to leave the church and relationships you've been committed to?  We've said many times, no church has everything right.  So the question is, what are the deal breakers?  I'd have a hard time thinking of one that would fall outside of a major leadership issue.



I'll name one....it is one that you have studied a bunch.

Family worship...or in the broader sense, how children's ministry is orchestrated.


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## Huntinfool

I just don't see that as a deal breaker.  It's something to be worked on.  Heck, our church doesn't do it the way I would prefer.  I just see our home as the primary religious "institution" in our lives.  As long as we do things the way we believe they should be done (biblically speaking), then I can live with the fact that we still seperate kids for church and that we pawn our youth off to a "youth minister".  

It really just makes me sad for the kids whose parents DON'T do anything at home.


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## Michael F. Gray

In some situations ALL God's children can do is Pray.


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