# Spiritual Gifts



## hobbs27 (Apr 13, 2015)

Have they ceased? If so, when? If no, will they?


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## gemcgrew (Apr 13, 2015)

A believer desires spiritual gifts and test everything, where could there be any harm?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 14, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> A believer desires spiritual gifts and test everything, where could there be any harm?



I'm not claiming any harm. I wonder for those that believe the spiritual gifts have ceased, when did they? If you're a believer they still exist, will they go on forever or will they someday cease and when?


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## formula1 (Apr 14, 2015)

*Re:*

No.  I see, but dimly!

They will cease when you see God face-to-face and when you know fully!  It is joyous to know that day is coming!

1 Corinthians 13
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

I don't know when that is (no one knows) , but it is when Christ returns in Glory!


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## Oak-flat Hunter (Apr 14, 2015)

All that remains is Love Hope and Charity.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 14, 2015)

Summertime-Nymph said:


> All that remains is Love Hope and Charity.


Where did wisdom, knowledge and faith go?


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## rjcruiser (Apr 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Have they ceased? If so, when? If no, will they?



When you say "spiritual gifts," what do you mean.  I'm assuming you mean sign gifts like tongues/healings etc etc.

With that in mind, I'll answer directly.    Yes, they've ceased.  No exact date, but you can see their decrease throughout Acts.  And even in Acts, they were only done under the direct supervision of the Apostles.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 14, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> When you say "spiritual gifts," what do you mean.  I'm assuming you mean sign gifts like tongues/healings etc etc.
> 
> With that in mind, I'll answer directly.    Yes, they've ceased.  No exact date, but you can see their decrease throughout Acts.  And even in Acts, they were only done under the direct supervision of the Apostles.



Yes, that's what I'm referring to and you gave me a good answer, but I would like to here from you what happened...or what changed, so I can know why they ceased in your opinion. Thanks


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## rjcruiser (Apr 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, that's what I'm referring to and you gave me a good answer, but I would like to here from you what happened...or what changed, so I can know why they ceased in your opinion. Thanks



What was their purpose?

How many times were they used in Acts?

Who do we have record of actually performing Miracles in Acts?

What was the purpose of tongues?

Who actually utilized them?


Answer those questions and I think you soon realize that the gifts were for a brief period of time, used to validate the message of the apostles...used to validate the giving of the Holy Spirit....only in the presence of Apostles (with the exception of Phillip..I believe).  

If it was something that happened more often by more people in Acts and the NT, I can see people having a case for them...but with everything laid out in Acts how it is and then the scripture in (I believe) II Cor 12ish...just don't see them continuing.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, that's what I'm referring to and you gave me a good answer, but I would like to here from you what happened...or what changed, so I can know why they ceased in your opinion. Thanks


So you are referring to "sign gifts". What are they and can this distinction be made Biblically?


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## gordon 2 (Apr 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Have they ceased? If so, when? If no, will they?



No tongues and healings they have not ceased.

And I also don't know if they will ever cease. My quick understanding of the purpose of these is that they are signs which have their genesis in the prophets and God's promises.

Seeing these signs  active in others and having personally been on the receiving end, I will not be convinced they have ceased. 

I sometimes wonder, if it was possible to record signs in the church today how many days it would take to overwhelm their witness in scripture.

I will give sway that some of the signs granted and received today are not exactly the same as those in the first decades after the resurrection. We are not exactly of the same generation culturally or spiritually.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 14, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> So you are referring to "sign gifts". What are they and can this distinction be made Biblically?



Gem, I know you will have a quick answer, so Im going to respond quickly as Ive got some goats to tend to. I know some of the signs were shown as the prophet Joel had predicted..basically Im speaking of gifts given to men{ the Apostles}  to heal and to speak in tongues. 

 Be Back after while.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Gem, I know you will have a quick answer, so Im going to respond quickly as Ive got some goats to tend to.


You didn't have to be ugly about it.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I know some of the signs were shown as the prophet Joel had predicted..


Yes


hobbs27 said:


> basically Im speaking of gifts given to men{ the Apostles}  to heal and to speak in tongues.


Just the Apostles? I see about 120 in the upper room when they all received, by Jesus, the Holy Spirit. The Apostles were only one tenth of the group.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 14, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> You didn't have to be ugly about it.








gemcgrew said:


> Just the Apostles? I see about 120 in the upper room when they all received, by Jesus, the Holy Spirit. The Apostles were only one tenth of the group.


 Not just the Apostles, but anyone that received the spiritual gifts of tongues and healing.


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## formula1 (Apr 14, 2015)

*Re:*



gordon 2 said:


> No tongues and healings they have not ceased.
> 
> And I also don't know if they will ever cease. My quick understanding of the purpose of these is that they are signs which have their genesis in the prophets and God's promises.
> 
> ...



Gordon, great to here from my Cathicostal friend!  We have talked of our experiences before, though really it is the experience of Christ working in us for His glory.  God Bless!


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 14, 2015)

if you search back thru history, there have been manifestations of the signs gifts in every century since the first century AD.  

I don't remember reading anything about the gifts coming to an end.  Lord knows, in this day and time, we need all the help we can get.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 14, 2015)

Summertime-Nymph said:


> All that remains is Love Hope and Charity.





			
				 Rjcruiser said:
			
		

> When you say "spiritual gifts," what do you mean. I'm assuming you mean sign gifts like tongues/healings etc etc.
> 
> With that in mind, I'll answer directly.  Yes, they've ceased. No exact date, but you can see their decrease throughout Acts. And even in Acts, they were only done under the direct supervision of the Apostles.



For you two....so far. What do you think of this along with the scripture provided to support it?


 Is the Gift of Tongues Still in Existence Today?
 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 1 Cor 13:8
 This passage tells us that tongues were to cease (pass away). But when were they to cease? Tongues were to cease when their purpose had been fulfilled.
 We made reference in the last section to the purpose for the gift of tongues. The purpose was as a sign to the unbelieving Jews who had rejected their Messiah, that God’s judgment would come. Once this judgment came, the purpose for tongues would be fulfilled and tongues would cease.
 When did this happen? Again, let us look to the new Testament.

 But when the king [God] heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. [Jerusalem] Matthew 22:7
 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, [Jerusalem] and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation [Rejected your Messiah]. Luke 19:41-44
 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Luke 21:20,22,24
 All of these passages refer to 70 AD The Jews rejected and killed their Messiah, and God sent judgment in 70 AD by allowing the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem.
 Tongues were for a sign to unbelieving Jews that these things would come to pass. Once this judgment came, the purpose for tongues was fulfilled and tongues ceased. This is consistent with the writings of the Early Church, for after 70 AD, no one was any longer said to have been speaking in tongues.


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> For you two....so far. What do you think of this along with the scripture provided to support it?
> 
> 
> Is the Gift of Tongues Still in Existence Today?
> ...



do you think that knowledge has past away too?  it is listed right there with tongues and prophecies.

If you take this scripture in context, what it is saying is even if all other things pass away, love never fails.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 14, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> do you think that knowledge has past away too?  it is listed right there with tongues and prophecies.
> 
> If you take this scripture in context, what it is saying is even if all other things pass away, love never fails.





I'm not looking to debate this,  I have not give my own opinion, Im simply  gathering people's opinions as I study it.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 14, 2015)

I would agree with that post hobbs. 

MacArthur just wrote a book called "Strange Fire. "  I have not read the book....but have listened to a lot of the material used in the book from his weekly sermons and listened to a bit of the strange fire conference he held last year at his church. 

I think to hold to sign gifts still being used today is both dangerous and unbiblical.


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 14, 2015)

do some studying on the Azuza Revival in 1906 - 1915.  There is documented instances of people speaking in languages they did know.  RJ<  how are the sign gifts unbiblical today????  I would really like to see the scripture to make this point.

Hobbs, you say you are not arguing the point, but your posts are pointing to a cessation thought process. I was just asking your opinion on if knowledge had passed away.  Looks to me like if you take the part about tongues disappearing, you have to say knowledge passed away also.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 14, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> do some studying on the Azuza Revival in 1906 - 1915.  There is documented instances of people speaking in languages they did know.  RJ<  how are the sign gifts unbiblical today????  I would really like to see the scripture to make this point.
> 
> Hobbs, you say you are not arguing the point, but your posts are pointing to a cessation thought process. I was just asking your opinion on if knowledge had passed away.  Looks to me like if you take the part about tongues disappearing, you have to say knowledge passed away also.


I'll look into all of that, thanks.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 14, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> I would agree with that post hobbs.
> 
> MacArthur just wrote a book called "Strange Fire. "  I have not read the book....but have listened to a lot of the material used in the book from his weekly sermons and listened to a bit of the strange fire conference he held last year at his church.
> 
> I think to hold to sign gifts still being used today is both dangerous and unbiblical.



Thanks


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## gemcgrew (Apr 14, 2015)

Hobbs, I am not convinced that the Bible distinguishes some gifts as "sign" gifts. When discussing God's power, working through man, Paul uses "gifts" in Romans , Corinthians and Ephesians. The Bible uses other terms in other instances and much more often.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 15, 2015)

It is not only the apostles who were the crucibles of the gifts.

For example:

 17So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; 19and he took food and was strengthened. Now for several days he was with the disciples who were at Damascus,

When Jesus heals the paralytic it is a sign,( a sign that he is God) , but it is more than a sign, it is also prophecy on  the kingdom to come to the gentiles perhaps...but something I have always found interesting about this "miracle" is Jesus' first reply to the man who asks to be healed. Jesus says, " Your sins are forgiven." as if that indeed would be the paralytic's restoration!

I don't know exactly* what is happening here, but I know from experience that the times I have given my paralysing  guilt and remorse for my personal sins over to God for Him to deal with, because I can't... my physical pains ( gout and arthritis) are lessened and my body and my mind return to vigour... like Paul restored to sight and getting up from his fall. 

So the gifts were not only with the apostles--it was possibly  in the church who was lively for the Holy Spirit unfettered in  it. And I have evidence that it continued...and continues in the church. I am that evidence, and I see the evidence in the lives of the saints and pilgrims through out the church's history.


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## formula1 (Apr 15, 2015)

*Re:*

Acts 10
44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

From the days of Peter's trip to the house of Cornelius, the gift of the Holy Spirit with evidence has not ceased to occur in Gentile believers and will not cease to occur 
until, as I said in a previous post, Christ returns in Glory.  Why so many are convinced of this cessation is a deception largely prevalent in the American church because of fear and leadership making efforts to control the distribution of the Holy Spirit to its people ( as if that could really be done).  As is and has always been the case, as Stephen spoke of the Jews, 

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you."  

This is as true of many of our churches where religion, power, and tradition overthrows the power of the Holy Spirit in believers.  And that's the way that so many want it to be.  Many American churches by and large like comfort and the uncomfortable initiates fear in them!  The Holy Spirit quit moving in those places simply because of a lack of faith.  And while it seems like a 'cessation', it is simply a quenching of the Spirit by like-minded people. 

The truth is in the Word of God.

The Purpose:

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” 

Do you know when is 'the end of the earth' is?  

Acts 2 
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

That's what Peter says under the anointing of the Holy Spirit.  Do you not believe it?

Fast forward to Acts 11, when Peter once again is speaking, telling the circumcision party (V2 - the critical religious, traditional ones) of his experience in the house of Cornelius.  Hear Peter's very words:

Acts 11 
15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?” 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

So to end this, all I will say is if the gift of the Holy Spirit is not dead, then neither are the gifts the He distributes as He wills. And I like Peter will only say, who am I to stand in God's way!!!

I will not!!!

God always gives His followers everything they need to be everything He wants.  There is no limit that any man can place on that! 

God bless to everyone on this matter, even those who don't believe as I.  I am not trying to change your beliefs only telling you what I believe and what my experience has shown to be true.  I'm starting to get old and senile so maybe some things might seem too harsh.  But I just can't fail to speak of what I know.  

Jesus is Lord of all and there is not one brother or sister here that I do not Love!


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## hobbs27 (Apr 15, 2015)

formula1 said:


> Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
> 
> Do you know when is 'the end of the earth' is?


Forgive me for being such a stickler on this matter, but I have spent countless hours of research and study over this very subject and I can assure you there is no where in scripture that the earth ends. 
 I think if you focus on this verse, maybe look at it in some different versions you will see what is being said is not " until" but "to" the end of the earth or " unto".
 So it's not a matter of when but a matter of how far.
 Again, forgive  me, but I do take a lot of heat for my interpretation, I want to make sure they are as accurate as God have them be.


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## formula1 (Apr 15, 2015)

*Re:*



hobbs27 said:


> Forgive me for being such a stickler on this matter, but I have spent countless hours of research and study over this very subject and I can assure you there is no where in scripture that the earth ends.
> I think if you focus on this verse, maybe look at it in some different versions you will see what is being said is not " until" but "to" the end of the earth or " unto".
> So it's not a matter of when but a matter of how far.
> Again, forgive  me, but I do take a lot of heat for my interpretation, I want to make sure they are as accurate as God have them be.



I won't give you heat at all.  Whether when or how far ( I almost mentioned how far in my post) still points way beyond the known world at the time IMHO, and therefore moves these things far beyond the days of the apostles.  That was really the point for we know that the earth has a far greater 'end' than known by the writer at the time.  But the Holy Spirit knew.  God Bless!


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## gemcgrew (Apr 15, 2015)

formula1 said:


> I won't give you heat at all.  Whether when or how far ( I almost mentioned how far in my post) still points way beyond the known world at the time IMHO, and therefore moves these things far beyond the days of the apostles.  That was really the point for we know that the earth has a far greater 'end' than known by the writer at the time.  But the Holy Spirit knew.  God Bless!


There is also a sense in which the world or earth , as I knew it to be and delighted in it, ended... upon my belief. 

2 Corinthians 5:17 comes to mind.


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## formula1 (Apr 15, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> There is also a sense in which the world or earth , as I knew it to be and delighted in it, ended... upon my belief.
> 
> 2 Corinthians 5:17 comes to mind.



My own little world most definitely became new! Amen!


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## hobbs27 (Apr 15, 2015)

Question for the ongoing spiritual gifts crowd:

 Do any of you know someone that has the gift to heal?


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## barryl (Apr 15, 2015)

*Apostolic Gifts*

Apostle Paul had the apostolic signs of healing by the laying on of hands. (1 Tim. 5:23 KJV AV  Paul couldn't heal Timothy by the laying on of hands.) He no longer had the gifts.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 15, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> do some studying on the Azuza Revival in 1906 - 1915.  There is documented instances of people speaking in languages they did know.  RJ<  how are the sign gifts unbiblical today????  I would really like to see the scripture to make this point.
> 
> Hobbs, you say you are not arguing the point, but your posts are pointing to a cessation thought process. I was just asking your opinion on if knowledge had passed away.  Looks to me like if you take the part about tongues disappearing, you have to say knowledge passed away also.




The Azusa revival?  

What did those not a part of that church say about the utterances?

How does their response differ from those in Acts 2?  

How does the experience in Azusa differ from that in Acts 2?

Also, see my first post.  Answer those questions.

See this post by hobbs as well.



hobbs27 said:


> For you two....so far. What do you think of this along with the scripture provided to support it?
> 
> 
> Is the Gift of Tongues Still in Existence Today?
> ...





gordon 2 said:


> It is not only the apostles who were the crucibles of the gifts.
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...



It was either the Apostles or those in direct supervision of the Apostles.

And again, how many times are tongues mentioned in Acts and by who are they used by?


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## gemcgrew (Apr 15, 2015)

barryl said:


> Apostle Paul had the apostolic signs of healing by the laying on of hands. (1 Tim. 5:23 KJV AV  Paul couldn't heal Timothy by the laying on of hands.) He no longer had the gifts.


The verse does not even address the topic. You are forcing this.

Paul is addressing Timothy in a LETTER.


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## barryl (Apr 16, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> The verse does not even address the topic. You are forcing this.
> 
> Paul is addressing Timothy in a LETTER.


Paul couldn't heal Trophimus either. 2 Tim. 4:20 KJV AV Forcing this to?


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## gemcgrew (Apr 16, 2015)

barryl said:


> Paul couldn't heal Trophimus either. 2 Tim. 4:20 KJV AV Forcing this to?


Not to the same extent. Paul never could heal anybody by any power of his own. God manifested His power through Paul and according to His purpose.


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## formula1 (Apr 16, 2015)

*Re:*



hobbs27 said:


> Question for the ongoing spiritual gifts crowd:
> 
> Do any of you know someone that has the gift to heal?



I have never known one person necessarily has that gift always though there could be some.  Gifts are distributed by God through the Holy Spirit as He wills.  So if your are a believer, you have the Holy Spirit living in you, and if so He can use you for His purpose, healing included.

Now I've known plenty who claimed it but that just isn't reality.  Many of these use these claims for personal gain and apparently have a gullible audience.  But a counterfeit doesn't make a truth ... false!

A good rule...folks who claim such a gift...usually don't have it.

God Bless!


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## Israel (Apr 16, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> It is not only the apostles who were the crucibles of the gifts.
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...



Bless you brother.
I can think of nothing else than this. 
Before the matter of anything, spiritual "gifts", prophecy, healings, visions, manifest miracles...became a matter of discussions and then doctrines..."do they...when do they...do they still...are they gone...? some men walked totally caught up with the reality of Jesus Christ in both his death and resurrection and couldn't help but find him working...both as an answer to their faith, and a response to their compassion...even a compassion generated by that knowledge of death to life.
The faith which works by love, being so alive in those...in whom it is alive, was never a matter to them of proving anything...except the proving of a promise which had totally ruined them for worldly preoccupation. "I am with you always..." Hearts won away from seeking all but his appearing, his being, his truth and reality established in their steps so that, even to any who would be wowed they could only, gladly, joyfully say..."hey don't mistake what you see for having anything to do with us... 

God's here, wake up."


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## gemcgrew (Apr 16, 2015)

formula1 said:


> I have never known one person necessarily has that gift always though there could be some.  Gifts are distributed by God through the Holy Spirit as He wills.  So if your are a believer, you have the Holy Spirit living in you, and if so He can use you for His purpose, healing included.


I agree and I'm unsure why this is so hard for some to understand. We have so many instances where the scripture speaks of God manifesting his power through men.


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## hummerpoo (Apr 17, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> I agree and I'm unsure why this is so hard for some to understand. We have so many instances where the scripture speaks of God manifesting his power through men.



x3.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 17, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> I agree and I'm unsure why this is so hard for some to understand. We have so many instances where the scripture speaks of God manifesting his power through men.



X4

And these men and women would say, "Listen this is not me, I am just a poor sinner, but it is of God". People who believe God, remanent people, people who who crave spiritual blessing as opposed to earthly blessing, people who are disposed to walk with God day to day, hour to hour, in other words people who are with the Holy Spirit know who does what.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 17, 2015)

Not taking sides on this yet, but It appears to me that Peter certainly had gifts that were noticibly of God, but through him....
 So my question stands, Do any of you know someone that has the gift to heal?
 You don't have to name names, I just think if nothing has changed then there should be some of you that knows someone that has received the gift of healing as Peter did. If not , possibly something has changed even if not total cessation. Thanks


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## rjcruiser (Apr 17, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> I agree and I'm unsure why this is so hard for some to understand. We have so many instances where the scripture speaks of God manifesting his power through men.



How many instances?

Very very very few instances of tongues or healings in Acts...especially considering the book was written over a 30 year period.



gordon 2 said:


> people who are with the Holy Spirit know who does what.



And what about People who walk with God and have the Holy Spirit living in them that know that these healings/tongues are nothing more than charades?


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## gordon 2 (Apr 17, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Not taking sides on this yet, but It appears to me that Peter certainly had gifts that were noticibly of God, but through him....
> So my question stands, Do any of you know someone that has the gift to heal?
> You don't have to name names, I just think if nothing has changed then there should be some of you that knows someone that has received the gift of healing as Peter did. If not , possibly something has changed even if not total cessation. Thanks



I know of people who were gathered as a faithful community where the Holy Spirit was present and people were healed of not knowing or uncertain of God present in their lives. This was done by a witness of signs and wonders  similar to the witness of signs of the presence of the Holy Spirit in scripture ( as per Peter's description and in Acts for example).

I would not say that any pastor, minister, or priest had the corner on the power of God.

The power of the Holy Spirit to heal people was perhaps more dependent on the faith and the prayers of the congregation ( the folks in the pews). 

It was each person's faith as individuals and as a group in a communion with God that healed them. 

Their deep desires to have a personal witness and union in common with God was answered with assurance with many signs and wonders. You had to be there spiritually to God and to your brothers and sisters... and there were also many people of many different denominations all gathered as the "spiritual church". ( my dumb words... but that's all I got right now....)


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## hobbs27 (Apr 17, 2015)

It appears as the discussion of this topic goes on...The closer the two sides get.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 17, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> How many instances?


I have never counted them. One of the first to come to my mind would be, "And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived."


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## formula1 (Apr 17, 2015)

*Re:*



rjcruiser said:


> And what about People who walk with God and have the Holy Spirit living in them that know that these healings/tongues are nothing more than charades?



I know men who walk with God who might not fully understand these gifts and others, but they won't speak against them. These are usually men who show great faith and passion for Christ and His people.

But only 'Pharisees' speak against the Holy Spirit and His gifts!  These I do not hear!


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## hobbs27 (Apr 17, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> It appears as the discussion of this topic goes on...The closer the two sides get.



Bad timing ^^^.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 17, 2015)

Looks totally legit to me:


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## formula1 (Apr 17, 2015)

*Re:*

Centerpin:

Thanks for the entertaining video!  It was a blast!

Must have skipped their Bible training:
1 Corinthians 14 
39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.  40 Let all things be done decently and in order.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 17, 2015)

Here is something a bit more orderly.


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## barryl (Apr 17, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> Not to the same extent. Paul never could heal anybody by any power of his own. God manifested His power through Paul and according to His purpose.


Not to the same extent? C'mon man! I do agree with the second part of your post(1 Cor. 1:22 KJV AV)


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## rjcruiser (Apr 17, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> I have never counted them. One of the first to come to my mind would be, "And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived."



Outside of the prophets...outside of the Apostles...once, maybe twice?

How is it that all of the sudden, many have this ability?  

And what is the purpose of their gift?  

When Jesus healed, He healed all.  Would those that have this gift be able to do the same?



formula1 said:


> I know men who walk with God who might not fully understand these gifts and others, but they won't speak against them. These are usually men who show great faith and passion for Christ and His people.
> 
> But only 'Pharisees' speak against the Holy Spirit and His gifts!  These I do not hear!



Interesting.  I know many who do speak out and are great men of God...and have a faithful long term ministry to prove their witness for God.



hobbs27 said:


> Bad timing ^^^.







formula1 said:


> Must have skipped their Bible training:
> 1 Corinthians 14
> 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.  40 Let all things be done decently and in order.



Seems like the first half of the chapter has been skipped by those who still utilize tongues in the church.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 17, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> And what about People who walk with God and have the Holy Spirit living in them that know that these healings/tongues are nothing more than charades?




You got me there. What about them? I have seen charades and I have seen and know honesty.

There is a saying it goes like this: A fox, is a fox, is a fox.  A coyote is a coyote not always.


----------



## centerpin fan (Apr 17, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Here is something a bit more orderly.


----------



## centerpin fan (Apr 17, 2015)

formula1 said:


> Centerpin:
> 
> Thanks for the entertaining video!  It was a blast!
> 
> ...



I think a lot of people have skipped their Bible training.  That video is of the Toronto Airport Vineyard.  It was promoted endlessly at places like TBN, with nary a critical word spoken.


----------



## formula1 (Apr 17, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> Interesting.  I know many who do speak out and are great men of God...and have a faithful long term ministry to prove their witness for God.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I will say it again, I will not hear anyone who speaks in favor of cessation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit until I see Jesus face to face as Paul described.  To me it violates scripture to do so.  I certainly am not asking you to do the same provided you glean value from their ministry.

Also In chapter 14, the apostle Paul said:
1) prophecy>tongues and tongues is of little value in church
2) lets do church with decency and order

And I agree with both!  But Paul never said tongues,  or healing for that matter, stopped!!! And He did not stop speaking in tongues or forbid it, did he!

You called tongues and healing a charade.  You spoke against those gifts of the Holy Spirit with your words.  It wasn't me. All I ask of you is to be careful how you word things.

Now if you wish to speak against the abuse and misuse of these gifts,  I am in your corner! In fact, I have been speaking to others about that for many years, as I came from some of those very environments.  God has taught me the difference between the counterfeit and the real by the teaching of the Word, the Holy Spirit and lots of real life experience.

Grace and peace to you!!  I hope this discussion benefits all!


----------



## rjcruiser (Apr 17, 2015)

formula1 said:


> I will say it again, I will not hear anyone who speaks in favor of cessation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit until I see Jesus face to face as Paul described.  To me it violates scripture to do so.



Hmm...so...you won't listen to Paul?  Doesn't he say they will cease in I Cor 13?



formula1 said:


> Also In chapter 14, the apostle Paul said:
> 1) prophecy>tongues and tongues is of little value in church
> 2) lets do church with decency and order
> 
> ...



Actually, he said they would cease.  And then he gave very strict guidelines for its use.  Have you ever seen tongues be understood by all?  Has there always been an interpreter?  An actual healing?

Everything I've seen is just a money grab.  Buy some divine water.  Buy some divine prayer cloth.  Give Give Give and you shall receive and be healed.



formula1 said:


> You called tongues and healing a charade.  You spoke against those gifts of the Holy Spirit with your words.  It wasn't me. All I ask of you is to be careful how you word things.
> 
> Now if you wish to speak against the abuse and misuse of these gifts,  I am in your corner! In fact, I have been speaking to others about that for many years, as I came from some of those very environments.  God has taught me the difference between the counterfeit and the real by the teaching of the Word, the Holy Spirit and lots of real life experience.
> 
> Grace and peace to you!!  I hope this discussion benefits all!



Actually, please re-read my post.  Based on your comment below about 'Pharisees,' I asked you what those who said it was only a charade and an act.

But...you are right...I believe them to be a total charade.  I have yet to see it be for the benefit of unbelievers and follow the guidance given in the epistles.



formula1 said:


> But only 'Pharisees' speak against the Holy Spirit and His gifts!  These I do not hear!





It is interesting to me that the only times (at least so far in my study) that tongues are used in Acts are when a distinct people group is given the Holy Spirit...or accompanied by a sign (ie flames in Chapter 2).  Look at Cornelius' conversion. in Chapter 10  The tongues gave credibility to their conversion as they were the first gentile converts.  Or Chapter 18(?) when John the Baptists' disciples who had never heard of Christ's death/resurrection being given the Holy Spirit.  After that...nothing more.  Why such a long dark period for signs?  All of the sudden...late 1800s come along and they seem to pop back up.


----------



## gordon 2 (Apr 17, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> I think a lot of people have skipped their Bible training.  That video is of the Toronto Airport Vineyard.  It was promoted endlessly at places like TBN, with nary a critical word spoken.



Lots of critics...I recall. Personally I met some people who had been influenced by the Toronto AV and the "Sinner's Prayer" people... in that their meetings were a "melange" of both. I felt then and still today that Jesus picked out his remnant from that movement. However, the Toronto  AV did something remarkable for stiff necked, prim and proper worshipers. Their bodies got a substantial workout in a church setting--which was something I did not need, having gone through it as a kid.

Of course all that was reported on was the "holy rooler" goings on.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 17, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> Why such a long dark period for signs?  All of the sudden...late 1800s come along and they seem to pop back up.



I think that's a very valid point. Lots of new things we consider mainstream today was created in the 1800's. The Rapture for instance. Prior to the 1800's Christians would have responded like this had you mentioned a rapture.........


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## gemcgrew (Apr 17, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> Outside of the prophets...outside of the Apostles...once, maybe twice?


Why do you view the Prophets and Apostles as if they are in a different category of Believers? These are men that God manifested His power through. 


rjcruiser said:


> How is it that all of the sudden, many have this ability?


The sovereign God of the Bible, all of a sudden, manifested His power through many.


rjcruiser said:


> And what is the purpose of their gift?


To glorify God, according to His eternal purpose.


rjcruiser said:


> When Jesus healed, He healed all.  Would those that have this gift be able to do the same?


Isn't that determined by the sovereign God of the Bible?

It appears that your issue is with the sovereignty of God.


----------



## gemcgrew (Apr 17, 2015)

barryl said:


> Not to the same extent? C'mon man! I do agree with the second part of your post(1 Cor. 1:22 KJV AV)


What I meant by "Not to the same extent" is that your use of 2 Tim. 4:20 is relevant to the issue, whereas 1 Tim. 5:23 was not.

But you are now using 2 Tim. 4:20 to show that Paul could not heal Trophimus. It is God who did not use Paul to heal Trophimus. We don't know why. We do know that God had Trophimus in Miletum, in accordance with divine appointment.


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## Israel (Apr 17, 2015)

One lives according to what one needs.


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## formula1 (Apr 17, 2015)

*re:*

For rjcruiser:

Yes, I listen to Paul in 1 Cor 13. Verse 8-12. It even tells you when but it has not happened. when perfect comes, when as a man you are mature in Christ, when you see face to face,  and when you know as you are fully known. None of these you experience on this side of heaven.  Its just that simple.

As far as other things you ask,
Yes, to tongues in church
Yes, to intepretation in church
Yes to healing as a result of prayer in small groups but never in a large church assembly.

These are legitimate things I've seen, but I can also attest to the counterfeit.  Test the spirits is what God says in His word.

I've seen what you've seen. Give, Give, Give to which I say false, false, false.  Legitimate gifts from the Holy Spirit enrich but not with earthly things. They enrich their benefactors with Salvation and the witness of the Holy Spirit and the genuine presence of God. I don't usually see them valid outside of that.

The Acts is a book that describes the workings of the Spirit of God through the Apostles and others like the Gentile converts you mention and the advancement of the early church.  I'm sorry that you don't believe it continues today just as it did then. I do and I have experienced it almost my whole life. There is something about God thru the Holy Spirit reaching down from heaven and touching another's life and transforming them into the Kingdom of light. I do not get enough of seeing others experience the living Christ.

I hope all who read see my heart about these things. And to say it again, God will give you everything you need to be everything He wants. There is nothing He won't give you if it completes you as His servant and for His glory and His purpose. Nothing! Ask Him for the gifts He wants for you and see.

Psalm 34:8 Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good!  Blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him!


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## Israel (Apr 18, 2015)

How easily we become lawyers, perhaps we need again to be provoked to jealousy, if ever we truly were.


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## hummerpoo (Apr 18, 2015)

formula1 said:


> There is nothing He won't give you if it completes you as His servant and for His glory and His purpose. Nothing!



New sig line? Maybe.


----------



## rjcruiser (Apr 18, 2015)

I know we're not going to convince each other of our beliefs...which is fine.  On this issue, I see it as a difference, but not a dividing line that is drawn between true saving faith and false belief.  I understand your thoughts...and I do also believe in the sovereignty of God.  He can do as He pleases.  Can He use man to heal...yes.  Can He use man to speak in strange tongues....yes.  Does He...I don't believe so...based on scripture.

With that being said, I can understand the position of others here.

What I guess I have the biggest problem with is somehow dismissing the work or ministry of someone who doesn't believe the same as you on this issue....especially when the Apostle Paul wrote about the cessation of gifts.  

John Chrysostom and Augustine speak of their ceasing. Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, and B. B. Warfield all agree that the gifts ended after the 1st century and had been given only to confirm the message when it first appeared.  While these men were not inerrant in their beliefs, to dismiss their entire ministry because of their position on the cessation of gifts just boggles my mind.

It's like we come into the 20th century and somehow believe that we have corned the market on the Holy Spirit and proper interpretation and throw out 1800 years of teaching.  I just don't understand doing that.


----------



## centerpin fan (Apr 18, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> It's like we come into the 20th century and somehow believe that we have corned the market on the Holy Spirit and proper interpretation and throw out 1800 years of teaching.  I just don't understand doing that.



Amen.


----------



## Israel (Apr 18, 2015)

Getting back to "almost the beginning", is still, almost.
If 1800 years is required to undo the promise of a faith that can move mountains, a Lord who is ever present, the dis-anulling of "whatsoever you ask in my name" and testimonies promised to those who shall see what follows when their faith is placed in the Lord Jesus...perhaps something is that remains more significant than 1800 years.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 18, 2015)

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

 Let's see,  all means all unless it goes against what I believe then all means some or possibly none...or it could mean nothing at all....Doh.


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## barryl (Apr 19, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> What I meant by "Not to the same extent" is that your use of 2 Tim. 4:20 is relevant to the issue, whereas 1 Tim. 5:23 was not.
> 
> But you are now using 2 Tim. 4:20 to show that Paul could not heal Trophimus. It is God who did not use Paul to heal Trophimus. We don't know why. We do know that God had Trophimus in Miletum, in accordance with divine appointment.


I have not wavered just read 1 Tim. 5:23 KJV AV again especially the last 3 words "thine often infirmities." Timothy sick. Trophimus sick(2 Tim. 4:20) Paul sick(2 Cor. 12:8-10) Luke(Medical Dr.) was with Paul through his ministry. Apostolic signs(Mark 16:16-20) I know that "English" can be tough, but that's the difference between a Bible Believer(KJV AV) and . . . Want to see another sign to the Jews, Mark 6:4-6


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## Israel (Apr 19, 2015)

barryl said:


> I have not wavered just read 1 Tim. 5:23 KJV AV again especially the last 3 words "thine often infirmities." Timothy sick. Trophimus sick(2 Tim. 4:20) Paul sick(2 Cor. 12:8-10) Luke(Medical Dr.) was with Paul through his ministry. Apostolic signs(Mark 16:16-20) I know that "English" can be tough, but that's the difference between a Bible Believer(KJV AV) and . . . Want to see another sign to the Jews, Mark 6:4-6




This will be remarkably peculiar to you. There are those "in the body", (I have met them) with no interest whatsoever in either seeking a sign, or being a vessel for their manifestation. These folks, sometimes, who do indeed have "trouble with English" have been led by nothing but compassion. And signs have followed their faith.
If you are attempting to backhand another brother with an insult, there's also a sign awaiting you.


----------



## hobbs27 (Apr 19, 2015)

After a lot of thought and trying to figure out just what cessation means, I have figured out I must be a cessationalist. What I had a problem with is I know the Holy Spirit is still very active and Christ told the Apostles He was going to send them a comforter that would be with us forever.

 I do not believe God gives gifts of tongues, or healing to man in our present time. I do however believe healing is possible through prayer and it is a gift of God " One on one" .  The lesson below best fits my opinion of this. Thanks for all the replies.

http://www.gotquestions.org/cessationism.html

_cessationism, cessationist
Question: "Is cessationism biblical? What is a cessationist?"

 Answer:  Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs. 

 The biblical record shows that miracles occurred during particular periods for the specific purpose of authenticating a new message from God. Moses was enabled to perform miracles to authenticate his ministry before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:1-8). Elijah was given miracles to authenticate his ministry before Ahab (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24). The apostles were given miracles to authenticate their ministry before Israel (Acts 4:10, 16).

 Jesus’ ministry was also marked by miracles, which the Apostle John calls “signs” (John 2:11). John’s point is that the miracles were proofs of the authenticity of Jesus’ message.

 After Jesus’ resurrection, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1 Corinthians 14:22, a verse that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church).

 The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are six proofs that it has already ceased:

 1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.

 2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy. The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future.

 3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.

 4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).

 5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.

 6) Current observation confirms that the miracle of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to speak in Acts 2. As for the miracle gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship; and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently proved, making further miracles unnecessary.
_


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## gordon 2 (Apr 19, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> After a lot of thought and trying to figure out just what cessation means, I have figured out I must be a cessationalist. What I had a problem with is I know the Holy Spirit is still very active and Christ told the Apostles He was going to send them a comforter that would be with us forever.
> 
> I do not believe God gives gifts of tongues, or healing to man in our present time. I do however believe healing is possible through prayer and it is a gift of God " One on one" .  The lesson below best fits my opinion of this. Thanks for all the replies.
> 
> ...




Although I find this circular ( I do not believe God gives gifts of tongues, or healing to man in our present time. I do however believe healing is possible through prayer and it is a gift of God) it wraps it up for you. That is, until you unwrap it again.  Peace bros. 

So I guess for now that's  the wrap.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 19, 2015)

barryl said:


> I have not wavered just read 1 Tim. 5:23 KJV AV again especially the last 3 words "thine often infirmities." Timothy sick. Trophimus sick(2 Tim. 4:20) Paul sick(2 Cor. 12:8-10) Luke(Medical Dr.) was with Paul through his ministry.


Yes, Godly men suffer sickness. It is God who is sovereign over the sickness and the healing, over death and life. 



barryl said:


> Apostolic signs(Mark 16:16-20) I know that "English" can be tough, but that's the difference between a Bible Believer(KJV AV) and . . . Want to see another sign to the Jews, Mark 6:4-6


Yes again, God manifested His power through the Apostles and many others. Some of the others were completely unknown to the Apostles.

"And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward."(Mark 9:38-41)


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## formula1 (Apr 19, 2015)

*re:*

I want everyone here to know that I have one change I will make as a result of my conversations with RJ. I will no longer discount a man who is following Christ solely on the basis of his belief in cessation. Rather, I will consider him on the basis that God has outlined in scripture provided and they should be self-explanatory.

1 cor 12:18
John 13:35

God bless and I truly enjoyed our discussion.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 20, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I do however believe healing is possible through prayer and it is a gift of God " One on one" .


James 5:13-18


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## hobbs27 (Apr 20, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> James 5:13-18



I thought of that as I posted it. The church I belong to practices this and it has scared off a few visitors when someone asks for annointing and prayer and laying of hands during a service. The men of the church would annoint their hands and circle around the person sick touching them on the head , arms, or hands, wherever they could reasonably touch the person and they will all pray aloud. ...Usually for about 5 minutes.

I've never seen anyone healed this way, but even if they were it would come from God to the sick person. ...Others may have held a part in obedeience and prayer, but not a single elder beheld the gift to heal.

According to the definition of a cessationist I have seen, it does not mean that I no longer believe God  heals, but I believe He no longer gives that power to heal to man.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 20, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I thought of that as I posted it. The church I belong to practices this and it has scared off a few visitors when someone asks for annointing and prayer and laying of hands during a service. The men of the church would annoint their hands and circle around the person sick touching them on the head , arms, or hands, wherever they could reasonably touch the person and they will all pray aloud. ...Usually for about 5 minutes.
> 
> I've never seen anyone healed this way, but even if they were it would come from God to the sick person. ...Others may have held a part in obedeience and prayer, but not a single elder beheld the gift to heal.
> 
> According to the definition of a cessationist I have seen, it does not mean that I no longer believe God  heals, but I believe He no longer gives that power to heal to man.




1)Where did you get that definition at the pool hall or people who are moral after school?

2) Why is this subject important? Especially that it is non existent now in reality. What does it have to do with the ruble in Russia, the dollar in Dakota, the yen in etc... 

3) Is there a problem in River City?


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## rjcruiser (Apr 20, 2015)

formula1 said:


> I want everyone here to know that I have one change I will make as a result of my conversations with RJ. I will no longer discount a man who is following Christ solely on the basis of his belief in cessation. Rather, I will consider him on the basis that God has outlined in scripture provided and they should be self-explanatory.
> 
> 1 cor 12:18
> John 13:35
> ...





I'll add qualifications in I Tim and Titus.



gemcgrew said:


> James 5:13-18





hobbs27 said:


> I've never seen anyone healed this way, but even if they were it would come from God to the sick person. ...Others may have held a part in obedeience and prayer, but not a single elder beheld the gift to heal.
> 
> According to the definition of a cessationist I have seen, it does not mean that I no longer believe God  heals, but I believe He no longer gives that power to heal to man.



I would agree.  I've seen miracles in medicine as well.  I've talked about it before....I've seen the power of prayer.  I've seen a group of elders lay hands on a man diagnosed with brain cancer and not given a long time to live...yet here he is...still living 5 years later.  Was it instant...no.  He had brain surgery...he had radiation...he went through a lot.  But he is still alive and cancer is no longer in his body.

And as a cessationist, I would agree with that definition.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 20, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> According to the definition of a cessationist I have seen, it does not mean that I no longer believe God  heals, but I believe He no longer gives that power to heal to man.


I don't believe that He ever did. He directed men and manifested His power through them. They had no power of their own.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 20, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> I don't believe that He ever did. He directed men and manifested His power through them. They had no power of their own.




Let me explain this way. Whatever gift Peter had in this text, no man has today. I believe it was a gift given to him for a sign that unbelievers in those days ,in the infancy of the church might believe.


3 Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. 2 And a certain man lame from his mother’s womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms from those who entered the temple; 3 who, seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, asked for alms. 4 And fixing his eyes on him, with John, Peter said, “Look at us.” 5 So he gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. 6 Then Peter said, “Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.” 7 And he took him by the right hand and lifted him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. 8 So he, leaping up, stood and walked and entered the temple with them—walking, leaping, and praising God.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 21, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Let me explain this way. Whatever gift Peter had in this text, no man has today. I believe it was a gift given to him for a sign that unbelievers in those days ,in the infancy of the church might believe.
> 
> 
> 3 Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. 2 And a certain man lame from his mother’s womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms from those who entered the temple; 3 who, seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, asked for alms. 4 And fixing his eyes on him, with John, Peter said, “Look at us.” 5 So he gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. 6 Then Peter said, “Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.” 7 And he took him by the right hand and lifted him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. 8 So he, leaping up, stood and walked and entered the temple with them—walking, leaping, and praising God.




Sometimes the name(s) in which we are, even from our mothers' wombs, compared to the  name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, accounts for all kinds of chronic infirmities.


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## formula1 (Apr 21, 2015)

*Re:*



gemcgrew said:


> I don't believe that He ever did. He directed men and manifested His power through them. They had no power of their own.



Absolutely! It belongs completely to the will and purpose of God.  The role of man in any manifestation of God's power is simply the obedience and faith to carry it out as moved upon by the Holy Spirit!  

We lack obedience and faith, but what we lack God is richly able to supply!  God Bless!


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## Israel (Apr 22, 2015)

formula1 said:


> Absolutely! It belongs completely to the will and purpose of God.  The role of man in any manifestation of God's power is simply the obedience and faith to carry it out as moved upon by the Holy Spirit!
> 
> We lack obedience and faith, but what we lack God is richly able to supply!  God Bless!


 Yes...
When all our peculiar reasonings are shown at root as fear of how we appear to man, we find One not ashamed to appear to man, for man.


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## barryl (Apr 25, 2015)

Israel said:


> This will be remarkably peculiar to you. There are those "in the body", (I have met them) with no interest whatsoever in either seeking a sign, or being a vessel for their manifestation. These folks, sometimes, who do indeed have "trouble with English" have been led by nothing but compassion. And signs have followed their faith.
> If you are attempting to backhand another brother with an insult, there's also a sign awaiting you.


John 17:17 KJV AV The "TRUTH" edifies. Maybe you are reading to much into the insult thought.


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## Israel (Apr 25, 2015)

Some take their stand on their version of bible, their version of tradition, their version of religion...their version...of Christ. So be it. Each will know where he stands, where he has stood.


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## formula1 (Apr 25, 2015)

Israel said:


> Some take their stand on their version of bible, their version of tradition, their version of religion...their version...of Christ. So be it. Each will know where he stands, where he has stood.



Or, "Wisdom is proved by her children!"


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## Israel (Apr 25, 2015)

formula1 said:


> Or, "Wisdom is proved by her children!"



amen.


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## gordon 2 (May 5, 2015)

I find this interesting, hope you do.


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## hobbs27 (May 5, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> I find this interesting, hope you do.



I love his accent. Reckon he could use his gift and speak in a southerners tongue?


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## gordon 2 (May 5, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I love his accent. Reckon he could use his gift and speak in a southerners tongue?



Now tha`t is comical; don`t care who you are. Right there.


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## barryl (May 6, 2015)

formula1 said:


> Or, "Wisdom is proved by her children!"


Proverbs 3:3-7 KJV1611AV


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