# Purpose of the Flood



## HawgJawl (Oct 21, 2013)

If the purpose of the Great Flood was to "scrap" the project and start again, this would be direct evidence that God did not know the future.

If the Great Flood was always part of the plan, it must have been "planned" for a purpose.

If the purpose was to teach a lesson, to whom was the lesson directed?

The wicked world was all killed, so they didn't learn a lesson from the Great Flood.

Noah was righteous before the Great Flood, so killing the rest of the world wasn't required to bring him into compliance.

If it was for Noah's descendants, there are a few problems with that.  First, Noah was already righteous and was teaching his children to honor God, so no mass killing was needed.  Second, God promised to never again do that again which completely undermined the threat of "God did it once and if you go back to your wicked ways, He'll do it again".  Third, if the purpose of the Great Flood was to keep all of Noah's descendant's from returning to their wicked ways, then it failed because everyone on earth today is a descendant of Noah and we have plenty of wickedness in the world.

So, what do you think the purpose was?


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## BT Charlie (Oct 21, 2013)

So in considering the flood, do we begin to glimpse the sheer power and soverieignty of God? 

Who is the clay to question the Potter?  

In this entitlement age, when seekers demand rights, perhaps, do we understand that God is obliged to do precisely nothing for us, except send us to he77, if we are wicked? And if he chooses to do that, do we get that He is glorified by our dam-ation?  Perhaps a better question involves whether we can 
even begin to perceive the unfathomable patience and mercy He has shown to the rest of us?


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## Israel (Oct 21, 2013)

Maybe, just going out on a limb here...it was...for you?
I know it was for me.


Despite my history and even a casual observation, I have, I believe, learned some things from my own experiences.
It could even be (perhaps) recommended that if we were to be truly wise, we could even learn from the experiences of others.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 21, 2013)

Genesis 6 
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

It was genocide, a cleansing of the celestial dna. The fallen angels or sons of God which were created for eternal life and servitude in heaven came to earth and took human women as wives and had children with them..These children were the giants, they were mighty in wisdom teaching man things way advanced of their time.

 Sound crazy? There's non-inspired scripture that supports this. God restrained the angels in the earth as they watched their children die in the flood, and all the people that used the knowledge they recieved in wicked ways. Those angels were bound to the day of judgement..70 generations which takes us to..Calvary...ofcourse all this is in the non inspired book of enoch.


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## formula1 (Oct 21, 2013)

*re:*

Genesis 6:1-7, Revelation 12:7-9
These two passages could be related. Possibly! For sure there was war in heaven and many from heaven were cast to the earth.

It was a house cleaning, one intended to clean those cast from heaven and mixing with the daughters of men. That is my humble opinion anyway.

The better question might be how is knowing the mind of God going to help any one. I accept God's own definition of Himself.

"I AM"


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## formula1 (Oct 21, 2013)

*re:*

Hobbs27, I see u and I are thinking similarly. God bless!

And I never read the book of Enoch!


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 21, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Genesis 6
> 1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
> 
> 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
> ...



1gr8bldr was just addressing this on the "Other Faiths" forum. I agree that this was the purpose of the flood.

But how do we work this into the flood being the analogy for Baptism and Jesus being our Ark? Did the beings in this scenario have free will? Was the flood not a part of God's plan from the beginning? He sure wouldn't have all those comparison verses without it.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Oct 22, 2013)

For these things were written down as examples to us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

As it was in the days of Noah, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 22, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Hobbs27, I see u and I are thinking similarly. God bless!
> 
> And I never read the book of Enoch!


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## hobbs27 (Oct 22, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1gr8bldr was just addressing this on the "Other Faiths" forum. I agree that this was the purpose of the flood.
> 
> But how do we work this into the flood being the analogy for Baptism and Jesus being our Ark? Did the beings in this scenario have free will? Was the flood not a part of God's plan from the beginning? He sure wouldn't have all those comparison verses without it.



The flood was a cleansing, washing away of of wickedness, just as John the baptist came to baptize for the remission of sins. 
  The door of the ark sat there open for whosoever, and only Noah and his family chose to enter. Noah preached to all, and none took heed. Eventually God closed the door.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 22, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If the purpose of the Great Flood was to "scrap" the project and start again, this would be direct evidence that God did not know the future.



But if the purpose was to punish the wicked and at the same time exhibit his grace and mercy it was a powerful exhibition of his sovereign reign.   



HawgJawl said:


> If the Great Flood was always part of the plan, it must have been "planned" for a purpose.



I Agee.  Among other things it's symbolic of both the grace, love, mercy, and salvation that comes only through God, and a prequel of the last days of judgement that are yet to come.



HawgJawl said:


> If the purpose was to teach a lesson, to whom was the lesson directed?



Mankind.



HawgJawl said:


> The wicked world was all killed, so they didn't learn a lesson from the Great Flood.



That's not the point.  The world was fallen by that point.  Mankind was doomed to live with evil.  That was and is a given.  The flood did not wipe that away nor was it ever promised to.   We still deal with it every day, and always will until the final judgement; Christians and Non-Christians alike.  The point was to highlight that only through faith in God is salvation available.



HawgJawl said:


> Noah was righteous before the Great Flood, so killing the rest of the world wasn't required to bring him into compliance.



See above.



HawgJawl said:


> If it was for Noah's descendants, there are a few problems with that.  First, Noah was already righteous and was teaching his children to honor God, so no mass killing was needed.  Second, God promised to never again do that again which completely undermined the threat of "God did it once and if you go back to your wicked ways, He'll do it again".  Third, if the purpose of the Great Flood was to keep all of Noah's descendant's from returning to their wicked ways, then it failed because everyone on earth today is a descendant of Noah and we have plenty of wickedness in the world.



See above.



HawgJawl said:


> So, what do you think the purpose was?



See above.


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## ambush80 (Oct 22, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> The flood was a cleansing, washing away of of wickedness, just as John the baptist came to baptize for the remission of sins.
> The door of the ark sat there open for whosoever, and only Noah and his family chose to enter. Noah preached to all, and none took heed. Eventually God closed the door.



To all?  Everyone in the whole world?


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## hobbs27 (Oct 22, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> To all?  Everyone in the whole world?



No, just for whosoever will. That's my understanding anyway.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 22, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> To all?  Everyone in the whole world?



Ambush.  Good to see you over here.


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## ambush80 (Oct 22, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> No, just for whosoever will. That's my understanding anyway.




So not everyone in the whole world got the warning about the flood?


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## ambush80 (Oct 22, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Ambush.  Good to see you over here.



Eh.  I'll be told I don't belong here soon enough.  I just couldn't let this one go by.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 22, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Genesis 6
> 1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
> 
> 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
> ...



Do you believe that God knew this was going to happen when He first created man?


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## rjcruiser (Oct 22, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Eh.  I'll be told I don't belong here soon enough.  I just couldn't let this one go by.



You don't belong.

  j/k  You're always welcome in here.



HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe that God knew this was going to happen when He first created man?



Of course...God knew all and knows all.


The flood was to destroy the world for its wickedness.  All throughout the OT and the NT, we see the penalty for sin=death.

It is also a picture of God's grace....and possible salvation.  God chose (yes, God CHOSE aka election ) Noah and his family to save.  Noah obeyed the call from God...built the ark and was saved.  This is a perfect picture of how God calls us to salvation.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 22, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> So not everyone in the whole world got the warning about the flood?



It took Noah 100 years to build the ark.  I'm sure the rumor mill had gotten around the entire population of that time.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 22, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> So in considering the flood, do we begin to glimpse the sheer power and soverieignty of God?
> 
> Who is the clay to question the Potter?
> 
> ...



If it was planned and executed to teach a lesson, then I believe we should be interested in "learning the lesson".  I don't think that it is a case of the clay questioning the potter.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 22, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> Of course...God knew all and knows all.
> 
> 
> The flood was to destroy the world for its wickedness.  All throughout the OT and the NT, we see the penalty for sin=death.
> ...



I'm sorry I wasn't clear.  I wasn't asking if God knew that the flood would happen.  I was asking if God knew that the following would happen:



hobbs27 said:


> Genesis 6
> 1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
> 
> 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
> ...


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## hobbs27 (Oct 22, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe that God knew this was going to happen when He first created man?



I can't answer that. I know scripture says it repented the Lord that He made man on this earth. I've never given this enough thought and study that I feel qualified to give a definitive answer.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 22, 2013)

formula1 said:


> The better question might be how is knowing the mind of God going to help any one. I accept God's own definition of Himself.
> 
> "I AM"



If "I AM" is all that is provided to us in the Bible then it is obviously all we need to know.  There must be some reason the flood is included in the Bible.  There must be something we are supposed to learn from it.  I don't believe that there is anything that is included in the Bible that is none of our business and that we're just supposed to ignore.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 22, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I can't answer that. I know scripture says it repented the Lord that He made man on this earth. I've never given this enough thought and study that I feel qualified to give a definitive answer.



Genesis 6:5-7 states God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.  And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.  And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.  

The word “repenteth” appears 5 times in the King James Bible.  It is used in the context of a sinner repenting his evil in 3 instances, but the word “repenteth” appears only 1 other time in the Bible as being spoken by God.  1st Samuel 15:10-11 states then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel saying, It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

The New King James Version of the Bible replaces the last line of Genesis 6:7 with “for I am sorry that I have made them” and replaces the first line of 1st Samuel 15:11 with “I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king”.  The same two scriptures in the Today’s New International Version utilize the word “regret” instead of “repenteth”.  

The word “repent” is defined in the Webster’s Dictionary as “To feel regret for something done or left undone.”  

To regret having done something is to say that it is now clear that it was a wrong decision or in hindsight it should have been done differently.  A common expression associated with regret is “If I had only known” or “If I could do it over again, knowing now what I didn’t know then”.  To regret something is to wish you had done something differently and is evidence that you had envisioned a better course that the one that actually occurred.  

If God had known the future including the future conduct of mankind at the time of the great flood, He would have also known exactly how He was going to view this conduct which would make regret impossible.  God would have known from the beginning that he would be displeased with the world he had created.  At the time of the flood the world would be exactly what God had known it would be from the beginning.  If God knew the future, the world could not be anything other than what God already knew it would be.  Scrapping an entire project and starting over usually occurs when things do not turn out as anticipated.  This seems to indicate that mankind was following its own course and God was simply judging as opposed to controlling every event himself.  

Why would God intentionally create a sinful mankind just to destroy it?  If God had known the future, instead of creating a world to destroy and start over, he would have started on a different course that would have avoided this entire event.  Instead of starting over with Noah, He could have just started with Noah from the very beginning.


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## ambush80 (Oct 22, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> It took Noah 100 years to build the ark.  I'm sure the rumor mill had gotten around the entire population of that time.



Here's a chart:

http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx

It says that at 8000BC there were 5 million people and that by 1AD there were 300 million people.  

Noah built the ark around 200-108 BC so there were between 5 and 300 million people living (closer to 300 million I would guess).  

They ALL got the memo about the flood?


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## ambush80 (Oct 22, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Genesis 6:5-7 states God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.  And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.  And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
> 
> The word “repenteth” appears 5 times in the King James Bible.  It is used in the context of a sinner repenting his evil in 3 instances, but the word “repenteth” appears only 1 other time in the Bible as being spoken by God.  1st Samuel 15:10-11 states then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel saying, It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.
> 
> ...




Whooo!  Makes my head spin.  Wish I could lay my spinny head at the foot of the cross.


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## formula1 (Oct 22, 2013)

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> If "I AM" is all that is provided to us in the Bible then it is obviously all we need to know.  There must be some reason the flood is included in the Bible.  There must be something we are supposed to learn from it.  I don't believe that there is anything that is included in the Bible that is none of our business and that we're just supposed to ignore.



My apologies!  The place of faith where I am says I don't worry about the details too much.  If you are not there, I understand.  Please accept the freedom I feel that I simply trust God that His ways are higher than mine and I have always found Him trustworthy.  Thats what I mean by the 'I AM' comment and it apparently was not clear enough to you.

I do think I addressed the reason for the flood in my original post.  

You asked if God knew this would happen?
Obviously, I don't know for sure, but since there is plenty of evidence that He is well aware of all things,  I'm going to say He knew the potential was there for rebellion and a necessary cleansing.  He created the heavenly creatures with an obvious level of choice much as He created the earthly ones (man) later. 

He is actually using man (the lower beings) to restore order to the heavenly estate (through Christ if you will). This follows the pattern we find in scripture.  The least of you shall be the greatest! Or also 'God uses the lowly things to comfound the mighty'!

God knows exactly what He is doing! God Bless!


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## rjcruiser (Oct 22, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm sorry I wasn't clear.  I wasn't asking if God knew that the flood would happen.  I was asking if God knew that the following would happen:



My answer is the same for either question.  God knew ALL and knows ALL.

Hard to comprehend...but that is what omniscience is.



HawgJawl said:


> Why would God intentionally create a sinful mankind just to destroy it?  If God had known the future, instead of creating a world to destroy and start over, he would have started on a different course that would have avoided this entire event.  Instead of starting over with Noah, He could have just started with Noah from the very beginning.



If God had done that...create perfect beings that never sinned, we'd never know the love that God has for us.  The love that caused Him to sacrifice His only Son on the cross for us.  The mercy that He shows us by covering our sins with that death and the grace He gives us by allowing us to spend eternity with Him.



ambush80 said:


> Here's a chart:
> 
> http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx
> 
> ...



They were all speaking the same language....they were all on the same continent....how long do you think it would take for 300 million people to get the memo?  

Remember, these people had never seen rain before....never needed a boat before.  Don't you think Noah would've made the front page of Drudge?



ambush80 said:


> Wish I could lay my spinny head at the foot of the cross.



Do you?  Or is that just another one of your jabs at Christianity?

And you wonder why you always get such a warm welcome around here.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 22, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> If God had done that...create perfect beings that never sinned, we'd never know the love that God has for us.  The love that caused Him to sacrifice His only Son on the cross for us.  The mercy that He shows us by covering our sins with that death and the grace He gives us by allowing us to spend eternity with Him.



Noah had free will and Noah sinned.  I'm not suggesting anything about creating a world without sin.

The world started over with Noah and his family.  I'm trying to understand the purpose served by Adam and Eve's descendants being "corrupted" by the Sons of God, and then the need to clean all of that up and start over.

If after the flood, God exerted some type of control to keep the Sons of God from mating with human women, why couldn't He have exerted that control before the flood and thereby eliminate the need for a do-over?


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## HawgJawl (Oct 22, 2013)

formula1 said:


> My apologies!  The place of faith where I am says I don't worry about the details too much.  If you are not there, I understand.  Please accept the freedom I feel that I simply trust God that His ways are higher than mine and I have always found Him trustworthy.  Thats what I mean by the 'I AM' comment and it apparently was not clear enough to you.
> 
> I do think I addressed the reason for the flood in my original post.
> 
> ...



I didn't mean that in an offensive manner.  

I feel that it is important to study the entire Bible in search of understanding.  I think far too many people (not you personally) pick out the feel-good parts to study and ignore the rest.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 22, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> The flood was a cleansing, washing away of of wickedness, just as John the baptist came to baptize for the remission of sins.
> The door of the ark sat there open for whosoever, and only Noah and his family chose to enter. Noah preached to all, and none took heed. Eventually God closed the door.



So the people Noah preached to had free will to come upon the ark? They all had an invitation and a choice?
Was everyone on the ark a family member? It's strange to me when a big extended family is all saved or all elected. I wish I could say the same about my extended family.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 22, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe that God knew this was going to happen when He first created man?



There's a great question.
.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 22, 2013)

Or better yet, did God cause the ungodliness so that He could then destroy the world.  I think that was the original question.
.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 22, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Noah had free will and Noah sinned.  I'm not suggesting anything about creating a world without sin.



Noah did not have free will.  He was a sinner from the start.  God chose he and his family to build the ark.  The story in Genesis is clear on that front.  Noah didn't go to God saying let me build an ark.



			
				HawgJawl said:
			
		

> The world started over with Noah and his family.  I'm trying to understand the purpose served by Adam and Eve's descendants being "corrupted" by the Sons of God, and then the need to clean all of that up and start over.



One purpose is it shows the penalty for sin...and the grace given by God.  It shows the salvation picture...the fact that God chooses us....and we respond.



			
				HawgJawl said:
			
		

> If after the flood, God exerted some type of control to keep the Sons of God from mating with human women, why couldn't He have exerted that control before the flood and thereby eliminate the need for a do-over?



He could have.  He could have done anything He liked.  That's what Omnipotence is.  

That being said, He didn't.  He chose Noah to build an ark.  He chose to flood the earth.  He chose to kill all but Noah and his family.



Artfuldodger said:


> So the people Noah preached to had free will to come upon the ark? They all had an invitation and a choice?
> Was everyone on the ark a family member? It's strange to me when a big extended family is all saved or all elected. I wish I could say the same about my extended family.



No...no one has free will.  Everyone of them were dead in their sin.  They all continued to choose sin...that is the only choice they could've made.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 22, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> did God cause the ungodliness so that He could then destroy the world.



No.  God is holy and perfect.  A holy and perfect God can't create sin.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 22, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> One purpose is it shows the penalty for sin...and the grace given by God.  It shows the salvation picture...the fact that God chooses us....and we respond.



Couldn't that have been done earlier and on a smaller scale, such as God killing Cain for his murder while blessing Abel for his pleasing sacrifices?


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## HawgJawl (Oct 22, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> No.  God is holy and perfect.  A holy and perfect God can't create sin.



If God didn't create sin, or knowing the future create the mechanism for sin to exist, where did it come from?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 22, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> Noah did not have free will.  He was a sinner from the start.  God chose he and his family to build the ark.  The story in Genesis is clear on that front.  Noah didn't go to God saying let me build an ark.
> 
> 
> One purpose is it shows the penalty for sin...and the grace given by God.  It shows the salvation picture...the fact that God chooses us....and we respond.
> ...



Why is there a penalty for sin if God chooses us? Why did they all continue to choose sin? How could  choosing sin be their only choice?
I don't understand Noah's warning/preaching if the crowd didn't have a choice. If none of the crowd had an invitation to enter the ark he wasted his breath.


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## swampstalker24 (Oct 22, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Here's a chart:
> 
> http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx
> 
> ...



Huh?  Genesis says that Noah died 350 years after the flood, so he lived during the same time as Jesus?


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## HawgJawl (Oct 22, 2013)

swampstalker24 said:


> Huh?  Genesis says that Noah died 350 years after the flood, so he lived during the same time as Jesus?



My calculations based upon the timeline in the Bible places the Great Flood at 2348 BC.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 22, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Couldn't that have been done earlier and on a smaller scale, such as God killing Cain for his murder while blessing Abel for his pleasing sacrifices?



I guess so, but that's not what happened.



HawgJawl said:


> If God didn't create sin, or knowing the future create the mechanism for sin to exist, where did it come from?



It came from Lucifer...the devil.  I believe God did know that Lucifer would turn on Him and take a bunch of the angels with Him.



Artfuldodger said:


> Why is there a penalty for sin if God chooses us?



Because the bible tells us the wages of sin is death.



			
				Artfuldodger said:
			
		

> Why did they all continue to choose sin?



Because they were spiritually dead.  Without the Holy Spirit, there is none righteous.  It is impossible to please God without the Holy Spirit.



			
				Artfuldodger said:
			
		

> How could  choosing sin be their only choice?



How can a dead man come alive?  Same answer as the prior question really.



			
				Artfuldodger said:
			
		

> I don't understand Noah's warning/preaching if the crowd didn't have a choice. If none of the crowd had an invitation to enter the ark he wasted his breath.



How did Noah know that God hadn't chosen any others?  How would he have known that God didn't plan to use Noah to reach those that were lost?  He didn't.  Therefore, he preached and warned.

Same reason that those who believe in election/predestination share the gospel.  I don't know who God has chosen and who He hasn't.  What if God chose me to be the avenue for which a person hears the good news and I don't do my job?  I'm commanded to share.



swampstalker24 said:


> Huh?  Genesis says that Noah died 350 years after the flood, so he lived during the same time as Jesus?



Good catch


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## HawgJawl (Oct 22, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> They were all speaking the same language....they were all on the same continent....how long do you think it would take for 300 million people to get the memo?



We know now that by 2000 BC there were civilizations in North America, South America, Africa, Europe, Asia, and many of the islands.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 22, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> My calculations based upon the timeline in the Bible places the Great Flood at 2348 BC.



Okay.



HawgJawl said:


> We know now that by 2000 BC there were civilizations in North America, South America, Africa, Europe, Asia, and many of the islands.




Okay....so then by your calculations, that gave the descendants of Noah 348 years to spread out into the new world.

Again, Gen 10:32 quotes that the whole Earth was inhabited at this time....again in 11:8, God continues to force people into dispersing on this earth by creating foreign languages.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 22, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> Okay....so then by your calculations, that gave the descendants of Noah 348 years to spread out into the new world.
> 
> Again, Gen 10:32 quotes that the whole Earth was inhabited at this time....again in 11:8, God continues to force people into dispersing on this earth by creating foreign languages.



I didn't mean that everyone arrived on these continents at exactly 2000 BC.  Civilizations were already in existence.  I'll get better figures for you in a minute.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 22, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I didn't mean that everyone arrived on these continents at exactly 2000 BC.  Civilizations were already in existence.  I'll get better figures for you in a minute.



And that's fine.  I'm just saying...it doesn't take long for civilizations to expand and move.

Look at the US for instance.  How long did it take the "white-man" to expand and take over the entire continent?  Less than 200 years....and back in the time of Noah...people were living much longer...and disease wouldn't have hampered their efforts.

For instance, Noah lived 950 years.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 22, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> And that's fine.  I'm just saying...it doesn't take long for civilizations to expand and move.
> 
> Look at the US for instance.  How long did it take the "white-man" to expand and take over the entire continent?  Less than 200 years....and back in the time of Noah...people were living much longer...and disease wouldn't have hampered their efforts.
> 
> For instance, Noah lived 950 years.



Timemaps.com/History has a lot of good information regarding ancient civilizations.  By 3500 BC there were civilizations on North America, South America, Africa, Europe, Middle East, South Asia, East Asia, Australia, and many of the islands in the area South East Asia.


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## HGUNHNTR (Oct 22, 2013)

The christian god made a tremendous tactical error in giving man the ability to makes his and her own decisions.  As a result, man rebelled against the teachings of the never present god and forged his own path.  In accordance with christian teachings, this really - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - the god off, so much that he/she committed global genocide, killing nearly every baby, toddler, child woman and man on the planet simply because the god miscalculated.....or was unable to develop an algorithm that correctly predicted the actions of his creation.  So there you have it.

By the way I did not include any profanity in the above post whatsoever, I guess I just offended a kristian.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 22, 2013)

HGUNHNTR said:


> The christian god made a tremendous tactical error in giving man the ability to makes his and her own decisions.  As a result, man rebelled against the teachings of the never present god and forged his own path.  In accordance with christian teachings, this really - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - the god off, so much that he/she committed global genocide, killing nearly every baby, toddler, child woman and man on the planet simply because the god miscalculated.....or was unable to develop an algorithm that correctly predicted the actions of his creation.  So there you have it.
> 
> By the way I did not include any profanity in the above post whatsoever, I guess I just offended a kristian.



The flesh is all that died...


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## Israel (Oct 22, 2013)

HGUNHNTR said:


> The christian god made a tremendous tactical error in giving man the ability to makes his and her own decisions.  As a result, man rebelled against the teachings of the never present god and forged his own path.  In accordance with christian teachings, this really - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - the god off, so much that he/she committed global genocide, killing nearly every baby, toddler, child woman and man on the planet simply because the god miscalculated.....or was unable to develop an algorithm that correctly predicted the actions of his creation.  So there you have it.
> 
> By the way I did not include any profanity in the above post whatsoever, I guess I just offended a kristian.



You are the focus of all his attention, love, and mercy.
I would hazard a guess, that you, like me, want the best of both worlds, want our cake and to eat it, (and probably everyone elses if they just look away for a minute.) 

The thing is, we don't like not being the one in whom all things are possible...that is, that we might choose "not mercy"...but have no consequences to it. We want to be able to refuse mercy, yet retain the good toward ourselves. We don't like finding out that rejecting mercy means we have made a choice for "not mercy". And all that means.
To condemn God, one must presumably know a better way of approval. Do you really lament the death of a multitude? Or, do you use them as a prop to stage your judgment of God? If that judgment was so terrible, how hard is it to consider that that same God is still granting you life, and breath...even as you revile his judgments? 
I see God's mercy to you, do you? It's the same he shows toward me daily, and I, no less than you, really do need it.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 22, 2013)

Tieing this into another thread, the Annuki, or some theory like that on the History channel made mention of the fact that many beliefs have a great flood story. I wish I knew exactly how they put it.... something like, everything [the other beliefs documents] were written in hindsite, trying to justify the flood. Maybe our account was the same?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 22, 2013)

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
 6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart                                                                                                        7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; 
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Wickedness of man is what caused the flood. God regretted that he had even made man. Human emotions? No, we are made in the image of God. 
I believe God made man to be good including Adam. Something happened and man didn't turn out as God planned. How can this be if God is in total control? I can't answer that.(ways) Did God make the flood/ark story to use as an analogy of Christ/baptism? I don't think so but used it after he regretted making man and caused the flood. God made a covenant with Noah that he wouldn't flood the earth again and made the rainbow as a sign. (it's not the refraction of light on water vapor or can it be both?)
Before this covenant there was no law. God just wanted to see if man would be good without one. Man wasn't. 

God had a will and plan from the beginning of time.

What I can't understand or fathom is God doing a sting operation on Adam to send his only Son(himself) as the Savior to something he knew or caused to happen from the get go. This is the same reason I can't believe the flood was a part of God's original plan.
I believe God gave man freewill and man abandoned God's plan and went with his own plan. God is constantly interjecting his plan into ours as we screw up. We can pray and God intervenes. Otherwise why would God be angry, happy, pleased, saddened, wrathful, requiring obedience, loving, have a penalty for sin? Especially a penalty for sin.
The only way that I can see God having free will is that he must wear blinders. Maybe he takes them off when we pray or every two weeks. Otherwise it would not be possible for him to have emotions or for us to have free will.


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## ambush80 (Oct 22, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> 5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
> 6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart                                                                                                        7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air;
> 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
> 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
> ...




It boggles the mind.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 22, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> It boggles the mind.



And what I can't figure out is how much of this stuff I must figure out. Some say if I don't interpret the Bible correctly as a free will believer, then I haven't shown God that I have used my own free will to come to him, believe, and convert.
The very thought of believing in predestination could put my salvation in jeopardy. 
I can actually see this mindset as being true.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 23, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> It boggles the mind.





			
				Artfuldodger said:
			
		

> And what I can't figure out is how much of this stuff I must figure out. Some say if I don't interpret the Bible correctly as a free will believer, then I haven't shown God that I have used my own free will to come to him, believe, and convert.
> The very thought of believing in predestination could put my salvation in jeopardy.
> I can actually see this mindset as being true.



Thank the Lord He works on mens hearts and not our minds!


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 23, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Thank the Lord He works on mens hearts and not our minds!



Is "works on our heart" literal? I would assume it means a different part of our psyche or soul. Using our heart to mean this in the Bible is just another example of the people of that era's ignorance in these matters.


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## formula1 (Oct 23, 2013)

*Re:*

Just thought I would take a moment and remind everyone how simple the Gospel of Jesus Christ really is! 

Mark 16:16 
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 1:12 
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

John 3:18 
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 3:36 
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 5:24 
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 6:29 
Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

John 6:35 
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

John 6:40 
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:47 
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 11:25 
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live

John 12:46 
I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.


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## BT Charlie (Oct 23, 2013)

formula1 said:


> My apologies!  The place of faith where I am says I don't worry about the details too much.  If you are not there, I understand.  Please accept the freedom I feel that I simply trust God that His ways are higher than mine and I have always found Him trustworthy.  Thats what I mean by the 'I AM' comment and it apparently was not clear enough to you.
> 
> I do think I addressed the reason for the flood in my original post.
> 
> ...





Amen.  Very encouraging, Formula.  Many thanks.

I have a weird sense of humor.  Can you see God turning to Gabriel...

"Hey Gabriel: Get a load of how the flood blows HawgJawl's mind a couple thousands years from now."


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## BT Charlie (Oct 23, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Just thought I would take a moment and remind everyone how simple the Gospel of Jesus Christ really is!
> 
> Mark 16:16
> Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
> ...



Again, very encouraging post, Formula.  Good way to start the day.  Many thanks.  You offer a secure life ring to enjoy and hang on to this morning.  It beats dog paddling around on my own little arguments driven by human doubt and bitterness.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 23, 2013)

HGUNHNTR said:


> By the way I did not include any profanity in the above post whatsoever, I guess I just offended a kristian.



You used a naughty word, and the censor caught it.


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## formula1 (Oct 23, 2013)

*Re:*



BT Charlie said:


> Again, very encouraging post, Formula.  Good way to start the day.  Many thanks.  You offer a secure life ring to enjoy and hang on to this morning.  It beats dog paddling around on my own little arguments driven by human doubt and bitterness.



Thanks!  You have blessed me with your words.

It seems we humans are a forgetful lot and need to be reminded of God's Love daily, sometimes hourly, lest we forget.  Great mercy and great grace is pouring from His throne daily on our behalf.  Oh how I need Him!

May God pour flowing streams of living water every moment on you as well and toss you that ring every time you need it!


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## HawgJawl (Oct 23, 2013)

When we examine sources independent of the Bible we find extensive historical records of the Egyptian society.  An ancient Egyptian calendar recorded the year 4241 BC.  Historical records exist of the ancient Egyptian civilization since around 3150 BC, with pharaohs ruling and ordering the construction of the pyramids.

King Khufu completed the construction of the Great Pyramid at Giza in 2680 BC and King Khafre completed the construction of the Great Sphinx at Giza in 2540 BC.  The biblical timeline reports that in the year 2348 BC, during the 10th generation of humans on earth, a great flood covered the entire earth destroying every living creature on the face of the earth except for Noah’s family on the ark.  

During the same time period as the biblical flood, historical records show that King Unas of the Fifth Dynasty of Egypt was building his pyramid in the pyramid field of Saggara near Cairo.  Urukagina, the ruler of Mesopotamia was developing the first known example of a government self-reform, consisting of a judicial code to combat corruption and laws to protect the rights of the poor.  The Prime Minister of Egypt, the philosopher Ptahhotep authored his famous literary work Maxims of Ptahhotep, a papyrus copy of which is on display at the Louvre in Paris.  The Egyptians developed the first courier service for the circulation of written documents, and invented advanced methods of beekeeping for the production of honey.  

These historic events were well-documented by the ancient Egyptians and others providing proof that a great flood did not destroy Egypt, killing all the Egyptians along with everyone on earth except for Noah and his family anywhere near the era reported in scripture. 

How easy is it to completely discard or ignore the Biblical timeline detailed in scripture?  When we discard or ignore one part of scripture, how does that affect the validity of the other parts we choose to accept?


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## Ronnie T (Oct 23, 2013)

formula1 said:


> My apologies!  The place of faith where I am says I don't worry about the details too much.  If you are not there, I understand.  Please accept the freedom I feel that I simply trust God that His ways are higher than mine and I have always found Him trustworthy.  Thats what I mean by the 'I AM' comment and it apparently was not clear enough to you.
> 
> I do think I addressed the reason for the flood in my original post.
> 
> ...





formula1 said:


> Just thought I would take a moment and remind everyone how simple the Gospel of Jesus Christ really is!
> 
> Mark 16:16
> Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
> ...



Rather than Calvinism, I prefer formula....isms.
Thanks Eddie for a bit of rationale.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 23, 2013)

formula1 said:


> The place of faith where I am says I don't worry about the details too much.





Ronnie T said:


> Rather than Calvinism, I prefer formula....isms.
> Thanks Eddie for a bit of rationale.




On one thread the position is expressed that simple faith in what we believe is more important that scrutinizing scripture to verify that our belief is accurate.

On another thread the position is expressed that being led by the Holy Spirit is dangerous without scrutinizing scripture to verify that the belief is Biblical.


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## formula1 (Oct 23, 2013)

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> Rather than Calvinism, I prefer formula....isms.
> Thanks Eddie for a bit of rationale.



Ha! Ha! Thanks to my friend Ronnie! But really, reminding everyone of the Power of the Gospel is a easy task!  Doesn't your spirit just swell with joy when you read the words 'But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.'?

What happened in Noah's time was important, but what Jesus has done is a complete work!!!


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## rjcruiser (Oct 23, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Timemaps.com/History has a lot of good information regarding ancient civilizations.  By 3500 BC there were civilizations on North America, South America, Africa, Europe, Middle East, South Asia, East Asia, Australia, and many of the islands in the area South East Asia.



Interesting website.  No sources....but interesting none the least.

Wonder if those two guys believe in Creation/young earth.



HGUNHNTR said:


> The christian god made a tremendous tactical error in giving man the ability to makes his and her own decisions.  As a result, man rebelled against the teachings of the never present god and forged his own path.  In accordance with christian teachings, this really - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - the god off, so much that he/she committed global genocide, killing nearly every baby, toddler, child woman and man on the planet simply because the god miscalculated.....or was unable to develop an algorithm that correctly predicted the actions of his creation.  So there you have it.
> 
> By the way I did not include any profanity in the above post whatsoever, I guess I just offended a kristian.



Drive by poster



HawgJawl said:


> When we examine sources independent of the Bible we find extensive historical records of the Egyptian society.  An ancient Egyptian calendar recorded the year 4241 BC.  Historical records exist of the ancient Egyptian civilization since around 3150 BC, with pharaohs ruling and ordering the construction of the pyramids.
> 
> King Khufu completed the construction of the Great Pyramid at Giza in 2680 BC and King Khafre completed the construction of the Great Sphinx at Giza in 2540 BC.  The biblical timeline reports that in the year 2348 BC, during the 10th generation of humans on earth, a great flood covered the entire earth destroying every living creature on the face of the earth except for Noah’s family on the ark.
> 
> ...



The funny thing is that you are the one who came up with the date of the flood to begin with.  It's like you're arguing over the validity of your own dates.

You post of dates and timelines....why could those calendars not date back to pre-flood?  



HawgJawl said:


> On one thread the position is expressed that simple faith in what we believe is more important that scrutinizing scripture to verify that our belief is accurate.
> 
> On another thread the position is expressed that being led by the Holy Spirit is dangerous without scrutinizing scripture to verify that the belief is Biblical.



You're right.  That is why it is important to have a doctrinal basis.  All too often, people want to stay spiritually ignorant...because it is easier to "just believe."

We all should be as the Bereans in Acts...studying the scripture...making sure our beliefs line up with the Word of God....not what makes us feel best.


----------



## HGUNHNTR (Oct 23, 2013)

Israel said:


> You are the focus of all his attention, love, and mercy.
> I would hazard a guess, that you, like me, want the best of both worlds, want our cake and to eat it, (and probably everyone elses if they just look away for a minute.)
> 
> The thing is, we don't like not being the one in whom all things are possible...that is, that we might choose "not mercy"...but have no consequences to it. We want to be able to refuse mercy, yet retain the good toward ourselves. We don't like finding out that rejecting mercy means we have made a choice for "not mercy". And all that means.
> ...



You can keep your god.  God did not grant me life, god doesn't take life away.  We are very unique and complex organisms no doubt, but I do not owe my existence to a "father" that is never present.  I have been an atheist for a number of years, and my life has only gotten better.  Coincidence yes, but I don't rely on "blessings" from an OT murderer either.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 23, 2013)

HGUNHNTR said:


> You can keep your god.  God did not grant me life, god doesn't take life away.  We are very unique and complex organisms no doubt, but I do not owe my existence to a "father" that is never present.  I have been an atheist for a number of years, and my life has only gotten better.  Coincidence yes, but I don't rely on "blessings" from an OT murderer either.



LOL...

You join 16 months ago...make 7 posts....then....nothing.

Now...all of the sudden, your back with a few driveby posts.

Hmmm....


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## HawgJawl (Oct 23, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> The funny thing is that you are the one who came up with the date of the flood to begin with.  It's like you're arguing over the validity of your own dates.
> 
> You post of dates and timelines....why could those calendars not date back to pre-flood?



The timeline is written in scripture.  I have it written out and can paste it if you would like to see it.  It's rather long but it's not a problem for me to post it.

The reason that the Egyptian historical records are important is because they show a continuous civilization over a long period of time.  There are no "holes" or silent periods of time in which the entire civilization could have been wiped out by a world-wide flood and then reimerged later carrying on as if nothing had happened.  Every Egyptian being killed by the flood would make this impossible.


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## HGUNHNTR (Oct 23, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> LOL...
> 
> You join 16 months ago...make 7 posts....then....nothing.
> 
> ...


What are the requirements then?  I've spent most of my time at the ODT, is that ok with you?


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## ambush80 (Oct 23, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The timeline is written in scripture.  I have it written out and can paste it if you would like to see it.  It's rather long but it's not a problem for me to post it.
> 
> The reason that the Egyptian historical records are important is because they show a continuous civilization over a long period of time.  There are no "holes" or silent periods of time in which the entire civilization could have been wiped out by a world-wide flood and then reimerged later carrying on as if nothing had happened.  Every Egyptian being killed by the flood would make this impossible.




I bet there's some "begats" in


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## ambush80 (Oct 23, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> And what I can't figure out is how much of this stuff I must figure out. Some say if I don't interpret the Bible correctly as a free will believer, then I haven't shown God that I have used my own free will to come to him, believe, and convert.
> The very thought of believing in predestination could put my salvation in jeopardy.
> I can actually see this mindset as being true.



You're going to come out the other side of your quest for truth a much better person and deservedly so.


----------



## rjcruiser (Oct 23, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The timeline is written in scripture.  I have it written out and can paste it if you would like to see it.  It's rather long but it's not a problem for me to post it.
> 
> The reason that the Egyptian historical records are important is because they show a continuous civilization over a long period of time.  There are no "holes" or silent periods of time in which the entire civilization could have been wiped out by a world-wide flood and then reimerged later carrying on as if nothing had happened.  Every Egyptian being killed by the flood would make this impossible.



Sure...paste away.

Not sure if it is necessary though....really there aren't but a couple that match closely to what is Biblically recorded



HGUNHNTR said:


> What are the requirements then?  I've spent most of my time at the ODT, is that ok with you?



The requirements are at the top of the forum...marked rules.

As far as I'm concerned...your drive by posts will get drive by responses.  But, I will say, they are typical for the athiest.  After all, you're too educated/brilliant to believe anything in the Bible....and your condescending posts show it.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 23, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> Sure...paste away.
> 
> Not sure if it is necessary though....really there aren't but a couple that match closely to what is Biblically recorded



Luke 3:23-38 records the lineage of Jesus back to Adam.  The number of years elapsed from God’s creation of Adam to the birth of Jesus can be easily calculated with simple math.  Scripture provides the age of each individual in the chain at the time the next individual was born.  Although the Jewish calendar places the creation of the earth at 3761 BC and another popular Jewish calculation is 3924 BC, the timeline in the King James Bible indicates the year would have been 4004 BC when God created the earth and Adam.  Adam lived 930 years.  When Adam was 130 years old his son Seth was born, which would have been 3874 BC.  Seth lived 912 years.  When Seth was 105 years old his son Enosh was born, which would have been 3769 BC.  Enosh lived 905 years.  When Enosh was 90 years old his son Cainaan was born, which would have been 3679 BC.  Cainaan lived 910 years.  When Cainaan was 70 years old his son Mahalalel was born, which would have been 3609 BC.  Mahalalel lived 895 years.  When Mahalalel was 65 years old his son Jared was born, which would have been 3544 BC.  Jared lived 962 years.  When Jared was 162 years old his son Enoch was born, which would have been 3382 BC.  Enoch lived 365 years.  When Enoch was 65 years old his son Methuselah was born, which would have been 3317 BC.  Methuselah lived 969 years.  When Methuselah was 187 years old his son Lamech was born, which would have been 3130 BC.  Lamech lived 777 years.  When Lamech was 182 years old his son Noah was born, which would have been 2948 BC.  Noah lived 950 years.  When Noah was 502 years old his son Shem was born, which would have been 2446 BC.  Shem lived 600 years.  The great flood occurred 98 years later, which would have been 2348 BC.  Two years after the flood, when Shem was 100 years old his son Arphaxad was born, which would have been 2346 BC.  Arphaxad lived 438 years.  When Arphaxad was 35 years old his son Shelah was born, which would have been 2311 BC.  Shelah lived 433 years.  When Shelah was 30 years old his son Eber was born, which would have been 2281 BC.  Eber lived 464 years.  When Eber was 34 years old his son Peleg was born, which would have been 2247 BC.  Peleg lived 239 years.  When Peleg was 30 years old his son Reu was born, which would have been 2217 BC.  Reu lived 239 years.  This was around the time of the tower of Babel.  When Reu was 32 years old his son Serug was born, which would have been 2185 BC.  Serug lived 230 years.  When Serug was 30 years old his son Nahor was born, which would have been 2155 BC.  Nahor lived 148 years.  When Nahor was 29 years old his son Terah was born, which would have been 2126 BC.  Terah lived 205 years.  When Terah was 130 years old his son Abram was born, which would have been 1996 BC.  Abram lived 175 years.  When Abram was 99 years old, God changed his name to Abraham.  When Abraham was 100 years old his son Isaac was born, which would have been 1896 BC.  Isaac lived 180 years.  God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah in 1887 BC.  When Isaac was 60 years old his twin sons Jacob and Esau were born, which would have been 1836 BC.  Jacob lived 147 years.  In 1739 BC, God changed Jacob’s name to Israel.  When Israel was 87 years old his son Levi was born, which would have been 1749 BC.  When Israel was 88 years old his son Judah was born, which would have been 1748 BC.  When Israel was 91 years old his son Joseph was born, which would have been 1745 BC.  In 1728 BC, Joseph’s brothers sold him into slavery and he was sent to Egypt.  When Jacob’s son Levi was 30 years old his son Kohath was born, which would have been 1719.  Kohath lived 133 years.  By 1715 BC, Joseph had risen to Governor of Egypt.  When Kohath was 51 years old his son Amram was born, which would have been 1668 BC.  Amram lived 137 years.  Just before Amram died, his son Moses was born, which would have been 1531 BC.  Moses lived 120 years.  In 1451 BC, Moses saw God in the burning bush, led the Israelites out of Egypt, and received the Ten Commandments.  In 1411 BC, Moses died and Joshua became the leader of the children of Israel.  In 1404 BC, Joshua delivered the children of Israel to the Promised Land and Joshua died at 110 years of age.  The children of Israel began to worship other Gods so the Lord allowed them to be overtaken by King Cushan-Rishathaim of Mesopotamia.  After eight years, in 1396 BC, Othniel defeated the Mesopotamians and became the Judge over the children of Israel.  In 1356 BC, Othniel died and the Israelites were overtaken by King Eglon of Moab.  After eighteen years, in 1338 BC, Ehud killed King Eglon and defeated the Moabites.  In 1258 BC, Ehud died and the Israelites were overtaken by King Jabin of Canaan.  In 1238 BC, the prophetess Deborah along with Barak and Jael defeated King Jabin and his army.  Forty years later, in 1198 BC, the Israelites were overtaken by Midian.  Seven years later, in 1191 BC, Gidean along with only three hundred men, defeated the Midianites.  Forty years later, in 1151 BC, Gideon died and Abimelech was made King for three years.  In 1148 BC, Tola became the Judge over the Israelites.  In 1128 BC, Jair became the Judge over the Israelites.  After twenty-two years, in 1106 BC, Jair died and the Israelites were overtaken by the Philistines and Ammonites.  In 1088 BC, the Israelites rose out from under the suppression of the Philistines and Ammonites.  In 1075 BC, the Israelites were again overtaken by the Philistines.  During the next thirty years, Samson rose to power and Samuel anointed Saul as King of Israel.  In 1031 BC, the Israelites lost the Ark of the Covenant to the Philistines during a battle.  In 1030 BC, David killed Goliath and Samuel defeated the Philistines.  In 1011 BC, Samuel died, and the following year King Saul and his sons died in battle against the Philistines.  David became King and brought the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem.  In 970 BC, King David died and his son Solomon became King of Israel.  In 930 BC, King Solomon died and his son Rehoboam became King.  Israel split and King Rehoboam ruled over Judah while King Jeroboam I ruled over the other ten tribes of Israel.  For the next three hundred years, Judah and Israel had numerous kings.  In 605 BC, Nebuchadnezzar became King of Babylon and in 588 BC he built a siege wall around Jerusalem.  Haman plotted to annihilate all the Jews but was overpowered and lost.  In 469 BC, Socrates was born.  In 427 BC, Plato was born.  In 385 BC, Aristotle was born.  In 356 BC, Alexander the Great was born.  In 69 BC, Cleopatra was born.  In 44 BC, Julius Caesar was assassinated and Augustus became Caesar of Rome.  In 30 BC, Mark Anthony committed suicide by falling on his own sword and Cleopatra committed suicide by having an Egyptian cobra secretly delivered to her.  In 4 BC, Augustus Caesar issued the decree that everyone in Israel should be registered.  Joseph and Mary traveled to Bethlehem to be registered and Jesus was born.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 23, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> On one thread the position is expressed that simple faith in what we believe is more important that scrutinizing scripture to verify that our belief is accurate.
> 
> On another thread the position is expressed that being led by the Holy Spirit is dangerous without scrutinizing scripture to verify that the belief is Biblical.



I've noticed that too. On one end of the spectrum is simple faith and at the other end is guidance from the Holy Spirit either in dwelling or in reading the Bible. This is necessary for us to have the knowledge of the truth. This is the only way we can be obedient to God and follow his commandments and to worship him correctly.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 23, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Luke 3:23-38 records the lineage of Jesus back to Adam.  The number of years elapsed from God’s creation of Adam to the birth of Jesus can be easily calculated with simple math.  Scripture provides the age of each individual in the chain at the time the next individual was born.  Although the Jewish calendar places the creation of the earth at 3761 BC and another popular Jewish calculation is 3924 BC, the timeline in the King James Bible indicates the year would have been 4004 BC when God created the earth and Adam.  Adam lived 930 years.  When Adam was 130 years old his son Seth was born, which would have been 3874 BC.  Seth lived 912 years.  When Seth was 105 years old his son Enosh was born, which would have been 3769 BC.  Enosh lived 905 years.  When Enosh was 90 years old his son Cainaan was born, which would have been 3679 BC.  Cainaan lived 910 years.  When Cainaan was 70 years old his son Mahalalel was born, which would have been 3609 BC.  Mahalalel lived 895 years.  When Mahalalel was 65 years old his son Jared was born, which would have been 3544 BC.  Jared lived 962 years.  When Jared was 162 years old his son Enoch was born, which would have been 3382 BC.  Enoch lived 365 years.  When Enoch was 65 years old his son Methuselah was born, which would have been 3317 BC.  Methuselah lived 969 years.  When Methuselah was 187 years old his son Lamech was born, which would have been 3130 BC.  Lamech lived 777 years.  When Lamech was 182 years old his son Noah was born, which would have been 2948 BC.  Noah lived 950 years.  When Noah was 502 years old his son Shem was born, which would have been 2446 BC.  Shem lived 600 years.  The great flood occurred 98 years later, which would have been 2348 BC.  Two years after the flood, when Shem was 100 years old his son Arphaxad was born, which would have been 2346 BC.  Arphaxad lived 438 years.  When Arphaxad was 35 years old his son Shelah was born, which would have been 2311 BC.  Shelah lived 433 years.  When Shelah was 30 years old his son Eber was born, which would have been 2281 BC.  Eber lived 464 years.  When Eber was 34 years old his son Peleg was born, which would have been 2247 BC.  Peleg lived 239 years.  When Peleg was 30 years old his son Reu was born, which would have been 2217 BC.  Reu lived 239 years.  This was around the time of the tower of Babel.  When Reu was 32 years old his son Serug was born, which would have been 2185 BC.  Serug lived 230 years.  When Serug was 30 years old his son Nahor was born, which would have been 2155 BC.  Nahor lived 148 years.  When Nahor was 29 years old his son Terah was born, which would have been 2126 BC.  Terah lived 205 years.  When Terah was 130 years old his son Abram was born, which would have been 1996 BC.  Abram lived 175 years.  When Abram was 99 years old, God changed his name to Abraham.  When Abraham was 100 years old his son Isaac was born, which would have been 1896 BC.  Isaac lived 180 years.  God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah in 1887 BC.  When Isaac was 60 years old his twin sons Jacob and Esau were born, which would have been 1836 BC.  Jacob lived 147 years.  In 1739 BC, God changed Jacob’s name to Israel.  When Israel was 87 years old his son Levi was born, which would have been 1749 BC.  When Israel was 88 years old his son Judah was born, which would have been 1748 BC.  When Israel was 91 years old his son Joseph was born, which would have been 1745 BC.  In 1728 BC, Joseph’s brothers sold him into slavery and he was sent to Egypt.  When Jacob’s son Levi was 30 years old his son Kohath was born, which would have been 1719.  Kohath lived 133 years.  By 1715 BC, Joseph had risen to Governor of Egypt.  When Kohath was 51 years old his son Amram was born, which would have been 1668 BC.  Amram lived 137 years.  Just before Amram died, his son Moses was born, which would have been 1531 BC.  Moses lived 120 years.  In 1451 BC, Moses saw God in the burning bush, led the Israelites out of Egypt, and received the Ten Commandments.  In 1411 BC, Moses died and Joshua became the leader of the children of Israel.  In 1404 BC, Joshua delivered the children of Israel to the Promised Land and Joshua died at 110 years of age.  The children of Israel began to worship other Gods so the Lord allowed them to be overtaken by King Cushan-Rishathaim of Mesopotamia.  After eight years, in 1396 BC, Othniel defeated the Mesopotamians and became the Judge over the children of Israel.  In 1356 BC, Othniel died and the Israelites were overtaken by King Eglon of Moab.  After eighteen years, in 1338 BC, Ehud killed King Eglon and defeated the Moabites.  In 1258 BC, Ehud died and the Israelites were overtaken by King Jabin of Canaan.  In 1238 BC, the prophetess Deborah along with Barak and Jael defeated King Jabin and his army.  Forty years later, in 1198 BC, the Israelites were overtaken by Midian.  Seven years later, in 1191 BC, Gidean along with only three hundred men, defeated the Midianites.  Forty years later, in 1151 BC, Gideon died and Abimelech was made King for three years.  In 1148 BC, Tola became the Judge over the Israelites.  In 1128 BC, Jair became the Judge over the Israelites.  After twenty-two years, in 1106 BC, Jair died and the Israelites were overtaken by the Philistines and Ammonites.  In 1088 BC, the Israelites rose out from under the suppression of the Philistines and Ammonites.  In 1075 BC, the Israelites were again overtaken by the Philistines.  During the next thirty years, Samson rose to power and Samuel anointed Saul as King of Israel.  In 1031 BC, the Israelites lost the Ark of the Covenant to the Philistines during a battle.  In 1030 BC, David killed Goliath and Samuel defeated the Philistines.  In 1011 BC, Samuel died, and the following year King Saul and his sons died in battle against the Philistines.  David became King and brought the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem.  In 970 BC, King David died and his son Solomon became King of Israel.  In 930 BC, King Solomon died and his son Rehoboam became King.  Israel split and King Rehoboam ruled over Judah while King Jeroboam I ruled over the other ten tribes of Israel.  For the next three hundred years, Judah and Israel had numerous kings.  In 605 BC, Nebuchadnezzar became King of Babylon and in 588 BC he built a siege wall around Jerusalem.  Haman plotted to annihilate all the Jews but was overpowered and lost.  In 469 BC, Socrates was born.  In 427 BC, Plato was born.  In 385 BC, Aristotle was born.  In 356 BC, Alexander the Great was born.  In 69 BC, Cleopatra was born.  In 44 BC, Julius Caesar was assassinated and Augustus became Caesar of Rome.  In 30 BC, Mark Anthony committed suicide by falling on his own sword and Cleopatra committed suicide by having an Egyptian cobra secretly delivered to her.  In 4 BC, Augustus Caesar issued the decree that everyone in Israel should be registered.  Joseph and Mary traveled to Bethlehem to be registered and Jesus was born.




"A paragraph, a paragraph, my kingdom for a paragraph!"


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 23, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> You're going to come out the other side of your quest for truth a much better person and deservedly so.



Thanks for your words of encouragement. Sometimes I see knowledge as a hindrance though. The early Christians that couldn't read had a better go of it than us.
The more I know, the less I don't know. Every page opens up many unanswered questions. I believe it is an exciting venture. I'm not even worried about what might be revealed in my quest. Maybe it was meant to be as was the flood.


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## ambush80 (Oct 23, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks for your words of encouragement. Sometimes I see knowledge as a hindrance though. The early Christians that couldn't read had a better go of it than us.
> The more I know, the less I don't know. Every page opens up many unanswered questions. I believe it is an exciting venture. I'm not even worried about what might be revealed in my quest. Maybe it was meant to be as was the flood.



I'm pretty sure at some point you will come across a Biblical notion that will absolutely defy reason.  That will be a "red pill or blue pill" moment.  I'm certain that if you want to continue believing that you will have to accept that many things in the Bible don't add up.  You'll have to use qualifiers like: "It can't be reasoned with the carnal mind" or "His ways are not are ways" or "We just don't see the big picture" or simply "The Bible says it, I believe it.  Full stop."  

You don't seem to me to be the kind of guy that would be satisfied with those qualifiers.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 23, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> "His ways are not are ways"



If the God Who spoke the universe into being exists, won't you concede that "His ways are not our ways"?


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## ambush80 (Oct 23, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> If the God Who spoke the universe into being exists, won't you concede that "His ways are not our ways"?



Not necessarily.  It says we are made in His image.  Explain that to me like I'm a tribesman in Borneo with a bone in my nose.  Does it mean physically?  Psychologically?  In temperment?   

Then explain to me why I should listen to your opinions on the matter.  Because when I read it, He seems to me like I was in my 20's. 

If only I had the power to wipe out all the world back then, except for that artsy girl that worshipped me (and maybe her roommate, for repopulating the Earth).


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 23, 2013)

HGUNHNTR said:


> You can keep your god.  God did not grant me life, god doesn't take life away.  We are very unique and complex organisms no doubt, but I do not owe my existence to a "father" that is never present.  I have been an atheist for a number of years, and my life has only gotten better.  Coincidence yes, but I don't rely on "blessings" from an OT murderer either.



Only an Atheist will expend that much energy and build up that much angst against something he vociferously professes doesn't exist.   Brothers I think he is legit.


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## ambush80 (Oct 23, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Only an Atheist will expend that much energy and build up that much angst against something he vociferously professes doesn't exist.   Brothers I think he is legit.



Often times, and I can speak for myself here, there is anger at having been lied to by people that you trusted and resentment at the wasted time living in the fear and guilt that sprang from those lies.


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## bullethead (Oct 23, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Only an Atheist will expend that much energy and build up that much angst against something he vociferously professes doesn't exist.   Brothers I think he is legit.



It just might be that an Atheist cares so much about his fellow men that he feels compelled to expose the lies. Big lies require great effort to correct when so many people think they need the lies.

That being said,is anyone going to step and account for the timeline of the supposed world wide flood against the timeline that shows at least one major civilization was thriving instead of drowning? Hawgjawl has done some great homework. Does anyone have any facts that can dispute it?


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 23, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Often times, and I can speak for myself here, there is anger at having been lied to by people that you trusted and resentment at the wasted time living in the fear and guilt that sprang from those lies.



Those kind of misdeeds are perpetrated by all peoples.  Not just the religious.   Keep in mind not to throw the baby out with the bath water.


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## ambush80 (Oct 23, 2013)

bullethead said:


> It just might be that an Atheist cares so much about his fellow men that he feels compelled to expose the lies. Big lies require great effort to correct when so many people think they need the lies.
> 
> That being said,is anyone going to step and account for the timeline of the supposed world wide flood against the timeline that shows at least one major civilization was thriving instead of drowning? Hawgjawl has done some great homework. Does anyone have any facts that can dispute it?



Yes. Back to the flood.  Any explanations?


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## centerpin fan (Oct 23, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Not necessarily.  It says we are made in His image.  Explain that to me like I'm a tribesman in Borneo with a bone in my nose.  Does it mean physically?  Psychologically?  In temperment?



Not necessarily?  _NOT NECESSARILY?_


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## rjcruiser (Oct 23, 2013)

bullethead said:


> It just might be that an Atheist cares so much about his fellow men that he feels compelled to expose the lies. Big lies require great effort to correct when so many people think they need the lies.
> 
> That being said,is anyone going to step and account for the timeline of the supposed world wide flood against the timeline that shows at least one major civilization was thriving instead of drowning? Hawgjawl has done some great homework. Does anyone have any facts that can dispute it?



LOL...he's done no great homework...more or less a cut n paste.  Looks very close to the work done in the 1700s by Bishop Ussher.



ambush80 said:


> Yes. Back to the flood.  Any explanations?



But what seems to be the question?  I've already answered...and even the Sumerians recorded a great flood.

Here's an interesting article I found on the web that you'd probably get a kick out of.  Talks about Ussher's date being off by 1000 years.  Seems plausible....but either way, both Biblical sources and secular sources point to a flood.

http://www.stanford.edu/~meehan/donnelly/bibchron.html


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## bullethead (Oct 23, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> LOL...he's done no great homework...more or less a cut n paste.  Looks very close to the work done in the 1700s by Bishop Ussher.


If I remember correctly from other posts, Hawg has done quite a bit of his own research





rjcruiser said:


> But what seems to be the question?  I've already answered...and even the Sumerians recorded a great flood.


WHAT Sumerians recorded a Great Flood? If the Flood killed everyone but 8 people, WHO was left(as Sumerians) to record it?



rjcruiser said:


> Here's an interesting article I found on the web that you'd probably get a kick out of.  Talks about Ussher's date being off by 1000 years.  Seems plausible....but either way, both Biblical sources and secular sources point to a flood.
> 
> http://www.stanford.edu/~meehan/donnelly/bibchron.html



Being sandwiched between the Tiger and Euphrates rivers I would not doubt a flood in that region took place. I have no problem with a large flood(in that area) actually occurring. I have no doubt that the people that lived in that region believed it was the entire known world. I do not doubt for an instant that a Flood happened and many cultures that lived in that area recorded it. It was recorded. But you are missing the fact that it was recorded!!! If everyone was dead in all those other cultures there would have been no one to record it. 
In the 1000 year difference of the timelines I find it hard to believe that all the Races of the world would have had time to form and enough offspring from 8 people would have been able to spread worldwide and create the known populations that existed at the time(and right after) of the flood.....1000 year lee-way taken into consideration.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 23, 2013)

The Aborigines culture has existed in Australia for at least 60,000 years.  They weren't killed by a world-wide flood during the past 60,000 years and obviously their culture has no record of a great flood because, as Bullit says, there would be no one left to record it.


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## Israel (Oct 23, 2013)

HGUNHNTR said:


> You can keep your god.  God did not grant me life, god doesn't take life away.  We are very unique and complex organisms no doubt, but I do not owe my existence to a "father" that is never present.  I have been an atheist for a number of years, and my life has only gotten better.  Coincidence yes, but I don't rely on "blessings" from an OT murderer either.



I'd be interested to know how the "better" is measured.


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## bullethead (Oct 23, 2013)

Israel said:


> I'd be interested to know how the "better" is measured.



"better" might mean that it is more gratifying to rely on your own thoughts and research and that it is okay to ask questions to things that do not make sense rather than just take anyone's word for it....written or spoken. Measured by personal feelings/peace of mind.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 23, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The Aborigines culture has existed in Australia for at least 60,000 years.  They weren't killed by a world-wide flood during the past 60,000 years and obviously their culture has no record of a great flood because, as Bullit says, there would be no one left to record it.



No one recorded it anyway. What we have here is what God showed Moses. I think some of the years, or numbers of generations could be off a bit, maybe even the extent of the flood, not because of an error of God or Moses but languages and meanings over the years. 

Im an old earth Christian, but I believe every word of the Bible, I just don't understand all of it as of now, but alot has been revealed to me over the past 10 years or so.


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## bullethead (Oct 23, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> No one recorded it anyway. What we have here is what God showed Moses. I think some of the years, or numbers of generations could be off a bit, maybe even the extent of the flood, not because of an error of God or Moses but languages and meanings over the years.
> 
> Im an old earth Christian, but I believe every word of the Bible, I just don't understand all of it as of now, but alot has been revealed to me over the past 10 years or so.



So the flood that covered the entire world may not have covered the entire world, the numbers may be off and the generations may be off and the other people in other cultures that wrote about a flood do not exist. But as it is written in the Bible is 100% accurate because what God told Moses is the way it happened....?


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## Ronnie T (Oct 23, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> No one recorded it anyway. What we have here is what God showed Moses. I think some of the years, or numbers of generations could be off a bit, maybe even the extent of the flood, not because of an error of God or Moses but languages and meanings over the years.
> 
> Im an old earth Christian, but I believe every word of the Bible, I just don't understand all of it as of now, but alot has been revealed to me over the past 10 years or so.



You'll never understand all of it.  Some of "it" will never be understood in this life.  We often want to understand things that haven't been revealed.  We want to clarify things that God has already clarified to the extent we can hold.
.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 24, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> You'll never understand all of it.  Some of "it" will never be understood in this life.  We often want to understand things that haven't been revealed.  We want to clarify things that God has already clarified to the extent we can hold.
> .



 Yes, I'm content with that. I believe as Christians we hunger for Christ even more so. The word and revelations He gives us is just what we need. Our soul feeds off it and grows from it, no one can set down and consume it all at one meal, even though our minds want is to.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 24, 2013)

bullethead said:


> So the flood that covered the entire world may not have covered the entire world, the numbers may be off and the generations may be off and the other people in other cultures that wrote about a flood do not exist. But as it is written in the Bible is 100% accurate because what God told Moses is the way it happened....?



When Jesus told Nicodemus , ye must be born again. Nicodemus first thought in an earthly manner. How can a grown man enter his mothers womb again? 
 The scripture establishes what must happen for a person to enter the kingdom. Scientically and physically impossible, yet there's people all over this earth that claim to be born again. The scripture has always proven to me to be correct...when I struggle with it, its because I'm missing something.. not the word of God.


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## Israel (Oct 24, 2013)

bullethead said:


> "better" might mean that it is more gratifying to rely on your own thoughts and research and that it is okay to ask questions to things that do not make sense rather than just take anyone's word for it....written or spoken. Measured by personal feelings/peace of mind.



better would mean moving toward an ideal of goodness?
Tell me, do I seem to you one who finds it "not OK" to ask questions?
Isn't "research" a form of question asking? but whom does one ask, to whom does one go?


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## BT Charlie (Oct 24, 2013)

bullethead said:


> So the flood that covered the entire world may not have covered the entire world, the numbers may be off and the generations may be off and the other people in other cultures that wrote about a flood do not exist. But as it is written in the Bible is 100% accurate because what God told Moses is the way it happened....?



When I was 17 years old, a buddy and I took some girlfriends on a week long horse trip into the Bob  Marshal Wilderness in Montana.  

We traversed the rocky spine known as the Chinese Wall.  On the very top of that -- one of the higher places in Montana -- I found some fossilized sea shells imbedded in rock.  I sat at an open campfire one night staring at the sea shells.  The nearest salt water is a thousand miles and four mountain ranges west.  I didn't impress too easily then, unless I was impressed with myself, but I vividly recall being impressed with how much  water would be needed to cover that high inland spot with salt water.  

Later in life, about 250 miles east of that spot atop the Rockies -- out on the prairie in eastern Montana -- I was hunting antelope with a geologist pal of mine.  We collected fossilized sharks teeth and sea shells -- one about the size of a wagon wheel.  He was working on his doctoral degree in geology.  I asked him about Genesis's account of the flood and he scoffed. He'd had several science classes that thoroughly debunked the Bible and he could and did cite man's 
scientific counter arguments chapter and verse, with much fervor.

His scoffing reminded me of 17 year old me up in the mountains.  On that mountain trip, my pal's girl was Christian, a pastor's daughter, who knew well the story of the flood.  She told it to me in a loving confidence.  Being me,  I was duty bound to scoff at her and her story.  I frequently scoffed at anything I didn't invent or first know or understand.  Hot stoves weren't such until I smelt 
my skin burning.

So as I had, my Rock Doc buddy scoffed, and as we scoffed I perceive scoffing and mocking from Hawgjawl, Bullethead, Ambush and others on this thread. 

I had become a Christian before the prairie trip.  No longer a scoffer, as time allowed out among the antelope, I confessed to the Rock Doc my original scoffing at the biblical account of the flood.  More though, I mocked the heart and courage and earnest belief of a young woman who had witnessed to me about a flood that covered our mountains.  Over time with one another, the Rovk Doc ended his rebellion, too, laying down his scientific arms at the foot of the cross.  His wife and children are Christian, too. The Rock Doc, an unabashed fossil hound, now preaches occasionally in a small Baptist Church.

I bet he has a great sermon on the flood.  

If I and the Rock Doc can "get it," there's hope for all of us mockers and scoffers.  Ask 
Saul, er, Paul.


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## bullethead (Oct 24, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> When I was 17 years old, a buddy and I took some girlfriends on a week long horse trip into the Bob  Marshal Wilderness in Montana.
> 
> We traversed the rocky spine known as the Chinese Wall.  On the very top of that -- one of the higher places in Montana -- I found some fossilized sea shells imbedded in rock.  I sat at an open campfire one night staring at the sea shells.  The nearest salt water is a thousand miles and four mountain ranges west.  I didn't impress too easily then, unless I was impressed with myself, but I vividly recall being impressed with how much  water would be needed to cover that high inland spot with salt water.
> 
> ...



Short answer: There were not always mountains where they are today. Land where it is today was not always there billions of years ago. The Earth has tectonic plates that constantly shift. There was a time when the Earth was a violent place as polar shifts caused ruptures in the Earth's mantle releasing(and still does today...think Volcanoes, Earthquakes etc) lava, gases, etc  and caused major changes to the Earth's continents. Our Continents broke off and actually moved. It did not happen over night. Places that were once the sea floor became mountain tips. Places that were once ocean became deserts. Places that were once coastlines are now hundreds and thousands of miles inland. 
If you would like the long answer the information with examples are a click away from your finger tips.
A new island formed near Pakistan just last month.
Here is a link to satellites capturing an island forming in 2011.
http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/new-volcanic-island-in-the-red-1/59690


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 24, 2013)

HGUNHNTR said:


> The christian god made a tremendous tactical error in giving man the ability to makes his and her own decisions.  As a result, man rebelled against the teachings of the never present god and forged his own path.  In accordance with christian teachings, this really - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - the god off, so much that he/she committed global genocide, killing nearly every baby, toddler, child woman and man on the planet simply because the god miscalculated.....or was unable to develop an algorithm that correctly predicted the actions of his creation.  So there you have it.
> 
> By the way I did not include any profanity in the above post whatsoever, I guess I just offended a kristian.




You're foundational premise is sorely flawed. You assert that God giving mankind free will was a tactical mistake, when in fact it most certainly had to be by design.  How else can one determine what another's true intentions are, where their heart truely resides, without allowing them the ability to chose?


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## bullethead (Oct 24, 2013)

Israel said:


> better would mean moving toward an ideal of goodness?
> Tell me, do I seem to you one who finds it "not OK" to ask questions?
> Isn't "research" a form of question asking? but whom does one ask, to whom does one go?



I don't know you well enough to answer that question accurately. What it seems to me, based on your posts, is that you tend to ask questions but are more likely to accept the answers that are faith based. Many people in "here" seem content with accepting status quo and chock it up to being unable to understand the how's and why's, but in reality it seems they are content because they do not want to know the how's and why's. When given rational and factual explanations they tend to avoid those answers in favor of an easier belief. The flood conversation is an example. When given provable facts some still disregard them. It seems some would rather take the easiest route. That is fine but it is not final.
That is just my opinion. Nothing personal.


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## bullethead (Oct 24, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You're foundational premise is sorely flawed. You assert that God giving mankind free will was a tactical mistake, when in fact it most certainly had to be by design.  How else can one determine what another's true intentions are, where their heart truely resides, without allowing them the ability to chose?



The answers to this would not be tolerated in here. I don't think it is a route you want to take this thread.


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## ambush80 (Oct 24, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I'm pretty sure at some point you will come across a Biblical notion that will absolutely defy reason.  That will be a "red pill or blue pill" moment.  I'm certain that if you want to continue believing that you will have to accept that many things in the Bible don't add up.  You'll have to use qualifiers like: "It can't be reasoned with the carnal mind" or "His ways are not are ways" or "We just don't see the big picture" or simply "The Bible says it, I believe it.  Full stop."
> 
> You don't seem to me to be the kind of guy that would be satisfied with those qualifiers.







Ronnie T said:


> You'll never understand all of it.  Some of "it" will never be understood in this life.  We often want to understand things that haven't been revealed.  We want to clarify things that God has already clarified to the extent we can hold.
> .





BT Charlie said:


> When I was 17 years old, a buddy and I took some girlfriends on a week long horse trip into the Bob  Marshal Wilderness in Montana.
> 
> We traversed the rocky spine known as the Chinese Wall.  On the very top of that -- one of the higher places in Montana -- I found some fossilized sea shells imbedded in rock.  I sat at an open campfire one night staring at the sea shells.  The nearest salt water is a thousand miles and four mountain ranges west.  I didn't impress too easily then, unless I was impressed with myself, but I vividly recall being impressed with how much  water would be needed to cover that high inland spot with salt water.
> 
> ...




You know how the fossils got there, don't you Artfuldodger?   I'm going back down to the dungeon now before the term "Mocker!" starts getting thrown around.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 24, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You're foundational premise is sorely flawed. You assert that God giving mankind free will was a tactical mistake, when in fact it most certainly had to be by design.  How else can one determine what another's true intentions are, where their heart truely resides, without allowing them the ability to chose?




Uhhhh....Because he knows everything.


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## bullethead (Oct 24, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> When Jesus told Nicodemus , ye must be born again. Nicodemus first thought in an earthly manner. How can a grown man enter his mothers womb again?
> The scripture establishes what must happen for a person to enter the kingdom. Scientically and physically impossible, yet there's people all over this earth that claim to be born again. The scripture has always proven to me to be correct...when I struggle with it, its because I'm missing something.. not the word of God.



Scripture says a lot of things. Many things stated in scripture has been shown to not be accurate and some of those things have been shown to be completely false,wrong or untrue. I draw the line thinking that it is an all or nothing type of work. If scripture is what it is claimed to be then there would be no disputes. If it is not what it is claimed to be there would be disputes. Many parts of it can and has been disputed and proven incorrect. I cannot rely on something that inaccurate to be considered worthy of trusting.

Using the Flood as an example we know what scripture tells us that happened and we know that what really did or did not happen. It is not confusing or unable to be understood.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 24, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> You know how the fossils got there, don't you Artfuldodger?   I'm going back down to the dungeon now before the term "Mocker!" starts getting thrown around.



"His ways are not our ways"
Seriously, I don't have a problem with science and Christianity co-existing. Maybe most of what God did or does can be explained by science or medicine. Even life itself, floods, and especially rainbows.
When the flood started, where did the rain water come from? Was the water made of H2O? 
The rainwater could have come from the Firmament above our atmosphere:
Genesis 1:7-8 (KJV) 
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 

The Water Vapor Canopy Theory
 Why the Bible (And Science) Says It is False

http://godandscience.org/youngearth/canopy.html


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## HGUNHNTR (Oct 24, 2013)

Israel said:


> I'd be interested to know how the "better" is measured.



Contented, and stable.


----------



## HGUNHNTR (Oct 24, 2013)

It's not like the flood was the only instance of genocide or mass murder in the bible.  There are MANY more.  Here's a favorite bible verse:

 "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked.  Show no mercy; have no pity!  Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.  But do not touch anyone with the mark.  Begin your task right here at the Temple."  So they began by killing the seventy leaders.  "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded.  "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill!  Go!"  So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."  (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

Sorry fellas, not the type of god I'm willing to praise.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 24, 2013)

HGUNHNTR said:


> It's not like the flood was the only instance of genocide or mass murder in the bible.  There are MANY more.  Here's a favorite bible verse:
> 
> "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked.  Show no mercy; have no pity!  Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.  But do not touch anyone with the mark.  Begin your task right here at the Temple."  So they began by killing the seventy leaders.  "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded.  "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill!  Go!"  So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."  (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
> 
> Sorry fellas, not the type of god I'm willing to praise.



I guess you would not have been the pilot or on the crew that dropped bombs on Japan?


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 24, 2013)

HGUNHNTR said:


> It's not like the flood was the only instance of genocide or mass murder in the bible.  There are MANY more.



1.  Lame (but common) excuse

2.  This thread really belongs in the AAA forum.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 24, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> So as I had, my Rock Doc buddy scoffed, and as we scoffed I perceive scoffing and mocking from Hawgjawl, Bullethead, Ambush and others on this thread.



If anyone on this forum feels like I have scoffed at or mocked them personally, I apologize.  That was never my intention.

My motives are regularly questioned on this forum, so let me explain my motivation regarding this thread.  I consider myself to be a Christian but not by the standards held by many if not most on this forum.  

I believe it is possible to be a Christian and not believe that the Bible is inerrant.

I believe it is possible to be a Christian and not believe that every word written by Moses and the Apostle Paul are true and accurate.

I believe it is possible to be a Christian and never even read a Bible.

I believe it is wrong to express the opinion to others that they must believe the entire Bible in order to be considered a "believer".


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## HawgJawl (Oct 24, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I think some of the years, or numbers of generations could be off a bit, maybe even the extent of the flood, not because of an error of God or Moses but languages and meanings over the years.



If you question the accuracy of certain parts of our current Bible, do you think that makes you less of a "believer"?


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## hobbs27 (Oct 24, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If you question the accuracy of certain parts of our current Bible, do you think that makes you less of a "believer"?



I don't question the accuracy. I question my ability to understand certain things. I understand more and more each passing year, and many things I used to question when my faith was weaker have been revealed to me now.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 24, 2013)

"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?"... "And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:"(1 Corinthians 1:20,28)

Unbelievers never use wisdom or logic when challenging Christianity. And they can't. They reject Reason itself when they reject Christ.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 24, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I don't question the accuracy. I question my ability to understand certain things. I understand more and more each passing year, and many things I used to question when my faith was weaker have been revealed to me now.



Maybe I misunderstood you.  What did you mean by this:



hobbs27 said:


> I think some of the years, or numbers of generations could be off a bit, maybe even the extent of the flood, not because of an error of God or Moses but languages and meanings over the years.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 24, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If you question the accuracy of certain parts of our current Bible, do you think that makes you less of a "believer"?



No but I question my limited understanding much more than I question what is written.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 24, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> "Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?"... "And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:"(1 Corinthians 1:20,28)
> 
> Unbelievers never use wisdom or logic when challenging Christianity. And they can't. They reject Reason itself when they reject Christ.



I'm not challenging Christianity.  I'm challenging the accuracy of what Moses wrote.  Can you see a difference?


----------



## gemcgrew (Oct 24, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm not challenging Christianity.  I'm challenging the accuracy of what Moses wrote.  Can you see a difference?


Yes. I can see a difference between a believer and an unbeliever.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 24, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Yes. I can see a difference between a believer and an unbeliever.



Is it your position that believing everything written in our current version of the Bible is required as part of salvation?


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 24, 2013)

For God so loved the world, that he gave the Bible, that whosoever believeth every word in the Bible should not perish, but have everlasting life.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 24, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Maybe I misunderstood you.  What did you mean by this:


Read this from Jesus. Most Christians will tell you that not one jot or tittle has passed from the law because heaven and earth have not yet passed. This bothered me because Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, and common understanding tells us that heaven and earth must pass first.
 After some study and prayer I come to learn that heaven and earth has indeed passed....just not the way we think of it. The scripture is true, although we walk on the same earth as Jesus--- there is some cultural and language barriers when translating this. Just as there could be in calendars and months and days, and many different languages. Even the Hebrew language has changed dramatically since the days of moses.

17- 	 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18- 	 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 24, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Read this from Jesus. Most Christians will tell you that not one jot or tittle has passed from the law because heaven and earth have not yet passed. This bothered me because Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, and common understanding tells us that heaven and earth must pass first.
> After some study and prayer I come to learn that heaven and earth has indeed passed....just not the way we think of it. The scripture is true, although we walk on the same earth as Jesus--- there is some cultural and language barriers when translating this. Just as there could be in calendars and months and days, and many different languages. Even the Hebrew language has changed dramatically since the days of moses.
> 
> 17- 	 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
> 18- 	 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.



I realize that there is much that we cannot comprehend about God and His plan.  But what God chose to reveal to Moses to be written down in scripture, must have been for a purpose.  Do you believe that God intended for us to be able to understand the parts that He revealed to Moses?


----------



## BT Charlie (Oct 24, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Short answer: There were not always mountains where they are today. Land where it is today was not always there billions of years ago. The Earth has tectonic plates that constantly shift. There was a time when the Earth was a violent place as polar shifts caused ruptures in the Earth's mantle releasing(and still does today...think Volcanoes, Earthquakes etc) lava, gases, etc  and caused major changes to the Earth's continents. Our Continents broke off and actually moved. It did not happen over night. Places that were once the sea floor became mountain tips. Places that were once ocean became deserts. Places that were once coastlines are now hundreds and thousands of miles inland.
> If you would like the long answer the information with examples are a click away from your finger tips.
> A new island formed near Pakistan just last month.
> Here is a link to satellites capturing an island forming in 2011.
> http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/new-volcanic-island-in-the-red-1/59690



Neither your short answer, Bullethead, nor your long answer adequately explain what I witnessed in the earth's crust in Montana.  Clay and dust testify much to clay and dust, but not of all.  

Still, even native peoples from my homeland could see the Creator in the creation.  It is sad that the internet steals that from youth as well.

Perhaps this question will resonate.

Years after the Rock Doc became a Christian, which will be a vague timeline indicator for those into such things, I was a rural country lawyer.  I had been one years prior to this incident, so this little time reference isn't much help in pinpointing dates.

One time our community had a shooting, the first in several decades.  The shooter, fueled by an all night binge on drugs (meth) and aclohol (to flush the meth for the Monday urine test), shot his wife.  He sat in jail for a couple days and hired me to represent him.

He was held in a territorial jail subject to an ACLU consent decree.  The jailer, a friend, smirked at me as I walked back in time to see my client. "Let's see what you can do now; you're no magician, counselor.  This scumbag is dead to rights."

I prayed on this walk.  Whether through providence, the Holy Spirit's leading, or simple insanity, and with the jailer as witness, I sat down next to the shooter.  (He smelled putrid.  He was in an orange jump suit, sweated through from the armpits to his waist.  He had been drinking coffee, smoking and sweating it out all weekend.  Worried about his wife's condition (she survived) and his future.) He looked at his feet as I spoke to him.  

I believe there is a God in Heaven who knows every hair on your head, I said, as I put my arm around him.  He began to tremble, and I hugged him close to me.  God loves you.  I believe He has instructed me to tell you this: God loves you.  He sent his son, Jesus Christ, as a sacrifice for all our sins. And in His eyes, whatever you've done is no worse than anything I have done.  He loves you now and always will regardless of what you say or what occurs now.  I believe this is a message for you here today.  

This man began to cry.  So did my pal the jailer.   About a half hour later, after the jailer departed, we got down to business.

Later that day, this man called his dad, who lived several states away.  They reconciled over the phone. He hadn't seen his dad in four years. His dad had hired private detective trying to locate his son, who had fallen into drugs and was drifting across the states.  The father feared he would get such a call, from jail.  But he was grateful his son was alive and made the call, instead of someone else speaking of his son's demise.

I spoke to his father, who told me of the transformation occurring in his son's life after he thought on the message delivered to him.  The father was a pastor.  This boy had been a strong believer.  His doubts and desires led him away.  And the boy was returning home.

The boy -- the shooter at the outset of this story -- was reconciled also to his wife, the victim of his violence.  He was sentenced and maintained a Bible ministry in prison.  He remains strong in faith and in relationship with his earthly father and his heavenly Father.

For whom do you believe God's purpose in the flood was more important:  the once-scoffing, now fossilized attorney, the jailer, the boy shooter, his victim, his dad, or you who deny any flood occurred?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 24, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm not challenging Christianity.  I'm challenging the accuracy of what Moses wrote.  Can you see a difference?



Hawg, look into it and you may find the parts credited to Moses might never have been written by Moses at all.


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## BT Charlie (Oct 24, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If anyone on this forum feels like I have scoffed at or mocked them personally, I apologize.  That was never my intention.
> 
> My motives are regularly questioned on this forum, so let me explain my motivation regarding this thread.  I consider myself to be a Christian but not by the standards held by many if not most on this forum.
> 
> ...



One thing about it, HawgJawl.  Doesn't much matter what anyone else has to say about this.  You have your own appointment with Him.  You will know know soon enough whether you figured right.  May He bless you and keep you in His mercy and grace.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 24, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I realize that there is much that we cannot comprehend about God and His plan.  But what God chose to reveal to Moses to be written down in scripture, must have been for a purpose.  Do you believe that God intended for us to be able to understand the parts that He revealed to Moses?



I think most of that is so we can know more about our Lord. Jesus crucified and defeated death so that we may have life is about all we need to know, whether it come by reading or hearing and when I say hearing mean by he that hath an ear.
 Once we know Jesus as Lord there is a need to worship Him and to converse with Him. Much of this is done by reading scripture and having mysteries revealed by the Holy Spirit. Which comes from making use of the bible......but meditation and prayer leaning on the Holy Spirit to direct us.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 24, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Neither your short answer, Bullethead, nor your long answer adequately explain what I witnessed in the earth's crust in Montana.  Clay and dust testify much to clay and dust, but not of all.
> 
> Still, even native peoples from my homeland could see the Creator in the creation.  It is sad that the internet steals that from youth as well.
> 
> ...



1. I never gave you a long answer. I left that up to you to search, which you obviously did not.

2. To deny a flood happened there would have to be proof of such a flood then when presented with overwhelming evidence for the flood a person would have to take that information and disregard it. Being that there is no evidence of a world wide flood, I am not denying it happened...I have looked at evidence and have found that no such event ever occurred so I cannot deny something that has never existed.

3. As for your story as somehow being proof of a God.....drop down a few floors and post it there. And please include how the Court viewed the story when you told it at the meth-man's trial.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 24, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Once we know Jesus as Lord there is a need to worship Him and to converse with Him. Much of this is done by reading scripture and having mysteries revealed by the Holy Spirit. Which comes from making use of the bible......but meditation and prayer leaning on the Holy Spirit to direct us.



And that is exactly what led me to where I am right now in my life.  I spent many, many years studying scripture and praying for a revelation from the Holy Spirit.  I have more questions every day and no divine answers.


----------



## rjcruiser (Oct 24, 2013)

bullethead said:


> WHAT Sumerians recorded a Great Flood? If the Flood killed everyone but 8 people, WHO was left(as Sumerians) to record it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those cultures came after the fact.

The flood happened.  Killed all but Noah, his 3 sons...and their wives.  Along with the flood killing everyone, it totally transformed the continents.  I also believe that the ice caps came as a result of the flood....that water had to go somewhere.

Why is it difficult to think that within a couple hundred years, the population couldn't expand rapidly?



HawgJawl said:


> The Aborigines culture has existed in Australia for at least 60,000 years.  They weren't killed by a world-wide flood during the past 60,000 years and obviously their culture has no record of a great flood because, as Bullit says, there would be no one left to record it.



60,000?  Is that from the same folks that say carbon dating is accurate?  

Sorry, I just don't agree.  I'm a young earth literal 6 day creation guy. 



hobbs27 said:


> Im an old earth Christian, but I believe every word of the Bible.



Those 2 statements are incongruent to me....but that's another topic.



HGUNHNTR said:


> It's not like the flood was the only instance of genocide or mass murder in the bible.  There are MANY more.  Here's a favorite bible verse:
> 
> "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked.  Show no mercy; have no pity!  Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.  But do not touch anyone with the mark.  Begin your task right here at the Temple."  So they began by killing the seventy leaders.  "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded.  "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill!  Go!"  So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."  (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
> 
> Sorry fellas, not the type of god I'm willing to praise.



You do realize the book of Ezekial is prophetic right?



HawgJawl said:


> Is it your position that believing everything written in our current version of the Bible is required as part of salvation?



No...for their are many believers who don't know everything in the Bible....therefore, they can't believe everything in it.

However, I do believe if you reject the Word of God, you are rejecting Christ.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 24, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> And that is exactly what led me to where I am right now in my life.  I spent many, many years studying scripture and praying for a revelation from the Holy Spirit.  I have more questions every day and no divine answers.



 I can't tell you how to listen, I think God speaks to us all differently. I just know that I tried living this life on my own without help from my Lord and things didn't work out so well. 
 Once I got pride out of the way the Lord stepped in and repaired all that I had broken. I don't know where you are with the Lord and don't care to guess, but for me, I got a little angry when the whippings started, and I took em till He broke me. God has been so real to me since there is no way I will ever dou t again. He's been with me through an accident with my kids in the car, He's been with me in giving me a loving wife, He's been with me through it all since I gave in. So regardless how doubters interpret scripture or how scientist explain our being..I Know My Redeamer Lives!


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 24, 2013)

So if we all read the Bible and all get something different out of it, it's all good right? Is trying good enough?


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## HawgJawl (Oct 24, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> However, I do believe if you reject the Word of God, you are rejecting Christ.



That remind me of other conversations we've had on this forum regarding the definition of the "Word of God".  That doesn't necessarily mean a book.


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## bullethead (Oct 24, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> Those cultures came after the fact.
> 
> The flood happened.  Killed all but Noah, his 3 sons...and their wives.  Along with the flood killing everyone, it totally transformed the continents.  I also believe that the ice caps came as a result of the flood....that water had to go somewhere.
> 
> Why is it difficult to think that within a couple hundred years, the population couldn't expand rapidly?



Faith vs Fact.
Bump it down to the AAA forum if you want to get into the nitty gritty details. I can see a few are already upset that this is being discussed here.





rjcruiser said:


> 60,000?  Is that from the same folks that say carbon dating is accurate?
> 
> Sorry, I just don't agree.  I'm a young earth literal 6 day creation guy.


That is because there are 60,000 years worth of artifacts and history within that culture. You have the right not to agree but you will have a hard time proving it wrong. If you have no faith in carbon dating then the timelines in the Bible not adding up should really cause a red light to go off for you.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 24, 2013)

From Richard Kremer a Pastor in Rome, Georgia

Biblical inerrancy – the idea that the Bible’s authors were safeguarded against error when inspired by God to write facts about science and history in Scripture – is a misleading and harmful concept that has been used to hurt people and is damaging to the cause of Christ, a Baptist pastor in Georgia said recently.

“This word has in fact done horrendous damage to the character of the Bible and ruined countless lives,” Kremer said. “The cause of Christ is being damaged by its use even now.”

In a sermon text picked up by a Save Our Shorter website opposed to recent changes at the Georgia Baptist Convention-related Shorter University, Kremer referred to a biology professor there who resigned because his boss wanted him to teach theories like young-earth creationism that have no scientific basis.

In effect, Kremer said, the administrator wanted the professor to “turn a blind eye to the fossil records, ignore the evidence of geological shifts and continental drifts, ignore the pottery shards -- all of which make the point that six thousand years is but a sliver of human existence on this earth, much less the history of the earth as a whole.”

On the other hand, Kremer said, God would have to be pretty egotistical to dictate words to the psalmist to be read back as praise unto himself.


http://www.abpnews.com/faith/theology/item/7586-pastor-blasts-biblical-inerrancy


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 24, 2013)

I believe the Bible has errors, thankfully I have the Holy Spirit as a separate entity than the Bible to help me find the truth or to reveal to me what I need to know.
I also believe in evolution and it's possible the flood isn't literal or could only be about the world as Noah knew it.
Now rainbows, we know what they are.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 24, 2013)

Kremer noted that the creation account in the first chapter of Genesis says that God created everything in the world first and humanity last. Another account in Chapter 2 God created humanity first, and then followed with the natural order. Kremer said the editor of Genesis was surely smart enough to notice the discrepancy, “but he didn’t care,” because he was not proposing a scientific explanation of creation, only that it ultimately goes back to God.

Pastor Kremer must not be a Christian.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 24, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> So if we all read the Bible and all get something different out of it, it's all good right? Is trying good enough?



I don't believe trying is good enough.

God doesn't require good, He requires perfection.  Obviously, we can't obtain that perfection on our own.



HawgJawl said:


> That remind me of other conversations we've had on this forum regarding the definition of the "Word of God".  That doesn't necessarily mean a book.



Yeah...I know...I'm one of those strange one's that believes it does.



bullethead said:


> Faith vs Fact.
> Bump it down to the AAA forum if you want to get into the nitty gritty details. I can see a few are already upset that this is being discussed here.



Well...not like it matters much...but I don't mind it as long as no one is condescending. 



			
				bullethead said:
			
		

> That is because there are 60,000 years worth of artifacts and history within that culture. You have the right not to agree but you will have a hard time proving it wrong. If you have no faith in carbon dating then the timelines in the Bible not adding up should really cause a red light to go off for you.



So you have faith in carbon dating, I have faith in the Bible.  Looks like we are both leaning on Faith.

Just like you say the Bible has been proven wrong, I say it hasn't.

Just like I say carbon dating has been proven wrong, you say it hasn't.



I guess it is all based on what you want to believe in.


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## bullethead (Oct 24, 2013)

Draw an 8 foot line across a chalk board and tell the students that the line represents the entire time Earth existed. The extreme left side represents when the Earth formed and it extends to where we are now (right side). Have a student or students come up and put a dot on the line where they they think the birth of Jesus fits into the timeline. Most often they put a dot about 2/3 of the way down the line from the left side going towards the right side. In reality you take the chalk and put a period at the extreme end of the right side....and that period would represent the entire time humans have existed on this planet and if you could stretch that period out to 8 feet to represent the entire time humans have existed on the planet, the dot representing the birth of Jesus would be about an inch to the left of the far right hand side. People, especially those that wrote the Bible, cannot comprehend how long humans were around and just how long the planet has existed.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 24, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> I don't believe trying is good enough.
> 
> God doesn't require good, He requires perfection.  Obviously, we can't obtain that perfection on our own.
> 
> I guess it is all based on what you want to believe in.



This was in relation to  interpreting the Bible. Are you saying we must all interpret the Bible the same even if we are trying with all of our heart to get it right? Just because we see something differently we are doomed?
We don't get any points for trying?
That makes Christianity seem more physical than Spiritual.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 24, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> I don't believe trying is good enough.
> 
> God doesn't require good, He requires perfection.  Obviously, we can't obtain that perfection on our own.
> 
> ...



I go along with all the methods that together make it more plausible than not about the age of things.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 24, 2013)

From Pastor Chuck Queen:
 Any casual reading of the Bible reflects numerous contradictions and incongruencies. The fact is, that there are biblical texts that condone and support genocide, polygamy, concubinage, slavery, nationalism, racism, elitism, etc..  There are also many biblical texts that point to a better way and a better God, that are redemptive and transformative, calling for distributive and restorative justice, peacemaking, forgiveness, reconciliation, love of enemies, etc. Calling the Bible inerrant is either a  denial or willful refusal to acknowledge what any casual reader of the Bible, without preconceived notions of biblical inerrancy, would see quite clearly. The Bible reflects the journey of people of faith, which is often three steps forward and two steps back. There are many biblical passages that reflect the two steps back. The same Bible that gives us divinely sanctioned genocide gives us a vision of human flourishing in Jesus that calls for a life of nonviolence based on the nonviolent character of God. It takes discernment, good common sense, mystical experience of God, fresh encounters with the living Christ, and a constant openness to the Divine Spirit to discern from Scripture what is just, good, true, and redemptive

http://www.abpnews.com/faith/theology/item/7586-pastor-blasts-biblical-inerrancy

I guess he just isn't trying hard enough to be a good Christian and will be punished.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 24, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Kremer noted that the creation account in the first chapter of Genesis says that God created everything in the world first and humanity last. Another account in Chapter 2 God created humanity first, and then followed with the natural order. Kremer said the editor of Genesis was surely smart enough to notice the discrepancy, “but he didn’t care,” because he was not proposing a scientific explanation of creation, only that it ultimately goes back to God.
> 
> Pastor Kremer must not be a Christian.



Hilarious.

I looked up Garden Baptist Church and Pastor Kremer.  I'm not going to get into an argument over his salvation...as I've never met the man.

That being said, the Church has either got to find a new pastor....or find a new decorum.  Off of the church website, the second paragraph of the Decorum states that the church's articles of faith shall be those that are set out in "The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the SBC May 9, 1963."  (That was updated in 2000, but the Decorum states 1963, not 2000).

So...I go to the SBC website and guess what.  First paragraph is on the scriptures.  It says...."It (the scripture) has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter."


So who is right?  Pastor Kremer? or the SBC and the church that employees Pastor Kremer?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 24, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I can't tell you how to listen, I think God speaks to us all differently. I just know that I tried living this life on my own without help from my Lord and things didn't work out so well.
> Once I got pride out of the way the Lord stepped in and repaired all that I had broken. I don't know where you are with the Lord and don't care to guess, but for me, I got a little angry when the whippings started, and I took em till He broke me. God has been so real to me since there is no way I will ever dou t again. He's been with me through an accident with my kids in the car, He's been with me in giving me a loving wife, He's been with me through it all since I gave in. So regardless how doubters interpret scripture or how scientist explain our being..I Know My Redeamer Lives!



I would agree that God speaks to us all differently. I would add that he also speaks to using different avenues or ways.
I don't picture Heaven full of people who only read the Bible a certain way.


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## bullethead (Oct 24, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I don't question the accuracy. I question my ability to understand certain things. I understand more and more each passing year, and many things I used to question when my faith was weaker have been revealed to me now.



Mark Twain: It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 24, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> Hilarious.
> 
> I looked up Garden Baptist Church and Pastor Kremer.  I'm not going to get into an argument over his salvation...as I've never met the man.
> 
> ...



I'm not so sure none of the above is correct in their beliefs nor if it will keep them out of Heaven. You might have misconstrued the way Kremor was addressing the word inerrant or exactly what is inerrant.
I would also agree that if he  believes differently than the SBC then maybe the Church should get another preacher.

My argument is, at what point does seeing discrepancies in the Bible differ from all of our various beliefs? If Christians who do believe the Bible is inerrant can't see eye to eye, why does it matter if I see discrepancies?
It's like having a belief that Atheist are worse than other non-believers.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 24, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> This was in relation to  interpreting the Bible. Are you saying we must all interpret the Bible the same even if we are trying with all of our heart to get it right? Just because we see something differently we are doomed?
> We don't get any points for trying?
> That makes Christianity seem more physical than Spiritual.



I gotcha....as far as interpretation...I'm a little more lenient on that in my mind.  Sure...there are going to be some differences that pop up.  However, on major doctrinal issues...that then affect one's view of God and one's view of Christ, I think you have to get it right.

For instance, the Diety of Christ.  I don't think you can get that one wrong and still be a Christian.

Or, in matters of Salvation.  In Christ alone, by faith alone.  I don't think you can believe other than that an still be a Christian.


But in reading Kremer's article even further, he is borderline heretical.  He talks of God being "egotistical" if He gave David the words to say in the Psalms...only to hear David praise Himself with His own words.  Psalm 139 talks of how God knows our thoughts before we even say them.  II Tim 3:16 tells us ALL scripture is God breathed.  

Tells me a lot about his lack of faith.



bullethead said:


> I go along with all the methods that together make it more plausible than not about the age of things.



Ahh...so none are perfect in and of themselves...so, just grab the 2 or 3 that are most alike and they must be right?


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## rjcruiser (Oct 24, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> If Christians who do believe the Bible is inerrant can't see eye to eye, why does it matter if I see discrepancies?



Most Christians who believe in the inerrancy of scripture only differ on minor theological ideas...not on major pillars of faith.


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## BT Charlie (Oct 24, 2013)

bullethead said:


> 1. I never gave you a long answer. I left that up to you to search, which you obviously did not.
> 
> 2. To deny a flood happened there would have to be proof of such a flood then when presented with overwhelming evidence for the flood a person would have to take that information and disregard it. Being that there is no evidence of a world wide flood, I am not denying it happened...I have looked at evidence and have found that no such event ever occurred so I cannot deny something that has never existed.
> 
> 3. As for your story as somehow being proof of a God.....drop down a few floors and post it there. And please include how the Court viewed the story when you told it at the meth-man's trial.



1.  You own the long answer, which you linked and resume here.  I read it, and it has zero applicability to what I'm talking about.

2.   You may convince me that election is in fact true. And I thought that would be impossible.  Wonders never cease.

3.    I didn't tell you a story that was meant as proof for those who do not see or hear.   I asked a simple question about God's purpose for the flood, which you did not answer.

Glad you smugly mentioned the court's reaction in judgment of the shooter.  All things being equal, and such.

The judge, his entire Court staff, the prosecutor and his staff, and all the witnesses present in the court, heard the story from witness testimony stated in open court.  There was not a dry eye in the place, Bullethead.  Recess was taken for decorum to be restored.  

In the course of the final hearing, this boy confessed that he was wrong, repented, and stood fully accountable before his judge.  

He spoke truth to the court, and accepted whatever the court thought just under the circumstances.  The judge was a tough man.  He praised the boy for his accountability and his testimony.  Revile the boy if you will.  

Even though the shooter was imprisoned, the boy remained reconciled to God.  Better to be in jail, reconciled to God, than wandering on the internet in rebellion.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 24, 2013)

Kremer said the fact that each of the four Gospels reports different details surrounding Christ’s resurrection, such as who was present and how many angels were at the empty tomb, shows the Bible wasn’t intended to convey history in the same way that a modern historian would write a book about the Civil War.

I have noticed this too. Is it wrong for me to be honest enough to admit I see these differences? Jesus still resurrected.


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## bullethead (Oct 24, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> Ahh...so none are perfect in and of themselves...so, just grab the 2 or 3 that are most alike and they must be right?



One reinforces the other and the other and the other to the point where accuracy can be relied upon.


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## bullethead (Oct 24, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> 1.  You own the long answer, which you linked and resume here.  I read it, and it has zero applicability to what I'm talking about.
> 
> 2.   You may convince me that election is in fact true. And I thought that would be impossible.  Wonders never cease.
> 
> ...




The link I provided was just an example of how the earth is able to change land. It was by no means the long answer. The long answer cannot be found in a single link or within 5 minutes of reading on the internet. The long answer would be you taking hours to research the subject.

There was no world wide Flood so there could not have been a purpose and the reason I have no answer for you as to what a purpose would be.

Court story was a tear-jerker for sure. Glad the guy has some direction. But I am confident that it all would not have constituted a ruling that a God exists.


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## dawg2 (Oct 24, 2013)

Because of Nephilim.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 24, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Mark Twain: It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand.


Another "good one", Wish I could remember quotes... but I forget them


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## HawgJawl (Oct 24, 2013)

dawg2 said:


> Because of Nephilim.





HawgJawl said:


> The world started over with Noah and his family.  I'm trying to understand the purpose served by Adam and Eve's descendants being "corrupted" by the Sons of God, and then the need to clean all of that up and start over.
> 
> If after the flood, God exerted some type of control to keep the Sons of God from mating with human women, why couldn't He have exerted that control before the flood and thereby eliminate the need for a do-over?



Assuming God knew the future and knew this would happen.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 24, 2013)

Archaeologists have discovered fossils, bones, etc. of all sorts of creatures that lived before the great flood.  The great flood may have killed the Nephilim but some archaeological evidence should have been discovered to support a belief in their existence.

If God removed the Nephilim from the earth, then the flood was not needed in order to get rid of them.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 24, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Kremer said the fact that each of the four Gospels reports different details surrounding Christ’s resurrection, such as who was present and how many angels were at the empty tomb, shows the Bible wasn’t intended to convey history in the same way that a modern historian would write a book about the Civil War.
> 
> I have noticed this too. Is it wrong for me to be honest enough to admit I see these differences? Jesus still resurrected.



Guess I just don't see those differences.



dawg2 said:


> Because of Nephilim.



Welcome back 



HawgJawl said:


> If God removed the Nephilim from the earth, then the flood was not needed in order to get rid of them.



True....and why I don't think it was the purpose of of the flood.

Possibly...that is where the giants came from (ie Goliath).


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## BT Charlie (Oct 24, 2013)

bullethead said:


> The link I provided was just an example of how the earth is able to change land. It was by no means the long answer. The long answer cannot be found in a single link or within 5 minutes of reading on the internet. The long answer would be you taking hours to research the subject.
> 
> There was no world wide Flood so there could not have been a purpose and the reason I have no answer for you as to what a purpose would be.
> 
> Court story was a tear-jerker for sure. Glad the guy has some direction. But I am confident that it all would not have constituted a ruling that a God exists.




Thanks for this reply.  Court can be an interesting place.  

God was not on trial, so the court did not have an opportunity to enter a ruling on the special interrogatory: Does God exist?  But then, no such ruling was necessary for God to move among all those who witnessed the events.  You may explain the phenomenon in human medical terms.  A form of mass delusion or hysteria perhaps.  

I suspect a poll of those who witnessed that of which I wrote would return unanimous affirmative responses to the question: Does God exist?   If a follow essay question were posed -- Can you prove it? -- I suspect my answer would have been fairly simple.  I hope so.

For everyone's sake.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 24, 2013)

It does seem..... well I had rather not try, that God would flood the entire world. Kill everybody and start over. Surely the atheist view would be that if man were God's creation... then is he not responsible for man's shortcomings??? Pondering.... We are talking about Genesis 6. Early.... for sure written in hindsite... because writing came about much later. So.... wonder just how many people  were living at that time. And were they in one locale, not scattered about the earth as man is now...... Just pondering out loud.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 24, 2013)

The bigger picture here is that God used a flood to rid the world of a rival group of half man, half divine. The present days are reserved for fire with Sodom as an example. Where Noah was caught up above the waters to be protected from the judgement, so will God's people who are still alive be "caught up" [protected from judgement] when God rids the world of the rival antichrist and his crowd, the half man, half divine doctrine. This is the picture presented from the whole of scripture. Is it literal or symbolic???? I guess my point in all this, is the story of the flood literal? I have always assumed it so....


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 24, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> The bigger picture here is that God used a flood to rid the world of a rival group of half man, half divine. The present days are reserved for fire with Sodom as an example. Where Noah was caught up above the waters to be protected from the judgement, so will God's people who are still alive be "caught up" [protected from judgement] when God rids the world of the rival antichrist and his crowd, the half man, half divine doctrine. This is the picture presented from the whole of scripture. Is it literal or symbolic???? I guess my point in all this, is the story of the flood literal? I have always assumed it so....



But you wouldn't send me to he!! if I didn't believe it was literal?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 24, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> I gotcha....as far as interpretation...I'm a little more lenient on that in my mind.  Sure...there are going to be some differences that pop up.  However, on major doctrinal issues...that then affect one's view of God and one's view of Christ, I think you have to get it right.
> 
> For instance, the Diety of Christ.  I don't think you can get that one wrong and still be a Christian.
> 
> Or, in matters of Salvation.  In Christ alone, by faith alone.  I don't think you can believe other than that an still be a Christian.



Hawgjawl said his motive in this thread was to get to know if you had to believe in the inerrancy  of the Bible to be a Christian. It amazes me that we have so many different beliefs and we all read the same Bible. That's not a problem for me. If it becomes one, I'll just not visit your Church anymore.

The really amazing part is how we decide or know for sure who is a Christian based on our personal beliefs. It matters not what the Bible says. 
Examples are: you must believe in the Trinity, you must believe in grace alone. (those two in themselves are an oxymoron) Is it grace alone or grace plus Trinity belief?
Others are, you must have assurance to have salvation, you must be able to read the bible correctly, trying isn't good enough. You could be doomed just for reading the flood part incorrectly. Baptism is another example.
I can understand people believing they must believe these things but why do you think that I must believe the exact same thing as you?
Now, we all have various "deal breakers" concerning our salvation.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 25, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hawgjawl said his motive in this thread was to get to know if you had to believe in the inerrancy  of the Bible to be a Christian. It amazes me that we have so many different beliefs and we all read the same Bible. That's not a problem for me. If I becomes one, I'll just not visit your Church anymore.



The reason is that some believe the Bible to be true and others don't.  It would be like reading a book on the Civil War and choosing what parts you believe and throwing out the rest.

I don't a certain aspect of what happened (for instance...Sherman's March to the Sea) so I'm just going to say that that part of the book was fictional.  In reality, what happened was....confederates burned things after Sherman came through to try and build morale amongst the Confederacy and buy sympathy from the North.

Do you see how it becomes essential to believe everything in the book in order to come to similar conclusions about what the book is saying?



			
				Artfuldodger said:
			
		

> The really amazing part is how we decide or know for sure who is a Christian based on our personal beliefs. It matters not what the Bible says.
> Examples are: you must believe in the Trinity, you must believe in grace alone. (those two in themselves are an oxymoron) Is it grace alone or grace plus Trinity belief?
> Others are, you must have assurance to have salvation, you must be able to read the bible correctly, trying isn't good enough. You could be doomed just for reading the flood part incorrectly. Baptism is another example.
> I can understand people believing they must believe these things but why do you think that I must believe the exact same thing as you?
> Now, we all have various "deal breakers" concerning our salvation.



Not true.  It isn't my personal belief.  It is what the Bible says.  

The NT is loaded with examples of false teachers.  It warns of them...what they teach...a false gospel.  I think we've gone into all of those doctrinal pillars before....don't want to hash them out in here.

But...like I mention above, if we don't start with a common denominator (ie the Bible is 100% true) we are going to have a myriad of beliefs.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 25, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> The reason is that some believe the Bible to be true and others don't.  It would be like reading a book on the Civil War and choosing what parts you believe and throwing out the rest.
> 
> I don't a certain aspect of what happened (for instance...Sherman's March to the Sea) so I'm just going to say that that part of the book was fictional.  In reality, what happened was....confederates burned things after Sherman came through to try and build morale amongst the Confederacy and buy sympathy from the North.
> 
> ...



Believing the Bible is not true is totally different from finding mistakes in the Bible. The original scriptures supposedly didn't contain punctuation. When punctuation was added, was it inspired? A comma placed in the wrong position can make the whole verse read differently.
Even with the common denominator of the Bible we still don't all agree. Why?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 25, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> It does seem..... well I had rather not try, that God would flood the entire world. Kill everybody and start over. Surely the atheist view would be that if man were God's creation... then is he not responsible for man's shortcomings??? Pondering.... We are talking about Genesis 6. Early.... for sure written in hindsite... because writing came about much later. So.... wonder just how many people  were living at that time. And were they in one locale, not scattered about the earth as man is now...... Just pondering out loud.



I've never thought of the comparison of the Nephillim to the anti-Christ. I was just reading an article where the author thought Adam was the anti-Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 25, 2013)

Ok here is the question:
I believe Jesus is the Son of God who died on a cross for my sins. He was buried, resurrected, and ascended into Heaven where he sits at the right hand of God. I truly believe this.

Must I also believe the whole world was flooded to all four corners? Another way of saying this is, do I have to believe in the literal flood and/or does the flood have to cover the whole world? Must I believe this with my physical heart instead of my brain?


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## formula1 (Oct 25, 2013)

*Re:*



Artfuldodger said:


> Ok here is the question:
> I believe Jesus is the Son of God who died on a cross for my sins. He was buried, resurrected, and ascended into Heaven where he sits at the right hand of God. I truly believe this.
> 
> Must I also believe the whole world was flooded to all four corners? Another way of saying this is, do I have to believe in the literal flood and/or does the flood have to cover the whole world? Must I believe this with my physical heart instead of my brain?



Art,

Post #56 I posted for you and it answers your question.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 25, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Believing the Bible is not true is totally different from finding mistakes in the Bible. The original scriptures supposedly didn't contain punctuation. When punctuation was added, was it inspired? A comma placed in the wrong position can make the whole verse read differently.
> Even with the common denominator of the Bible we still don't all agree. Why?



That is why knowing the original languages and studying in the original languages is very beneficial.

And finding mistakes in the bible...at what point to equate mistakes with not true?  

Again, saying mistakes are there still allows for a shifting base.  When the Word of God is the foundation....a shifting foundation will cause cracks and divisions throughout.  To borrow a term from Big7....that is why we have the schisms in the modern church.



Artfuldodger said:


> Ok here is the question:
> I believe Jesus is the Son of God who died on a cross for my sins. He was buried, resurrected, and ascended into Heaven where he sits at the right hand of God. I truly believe this.
> 
> Must I also believe the whole world was flooded to all four corners? Another way of saying this is, do I have to believe in the literal flood and/or does the flood have to cover the whole world? Must I believe this with my physical heart instead of my brain?



No...I don't think you have to.  However, when you start to disbelieve one thing...where does it stop?  Why the disbelief?

I think as you go down the path of picking and choosing what you believe and what you don't, it becomes a slippery slope that can quickly turn to disbelief in who the Bible says is Jesus and the salvation message.


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## crackerdave (Oct 25, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Art,
> 
> Post #56 I posted for you and it answers your question.



Art thou awake, Art?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 25, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Art,
> 
> Post #56 I posted for you and it answers your question.



Well thanks, your belief is one end of the spectrum and some on this thread are at the other end. 
I guess it is up to me to find out which end is true. 
I can't see God sending someone to He!! because he isn't smart enough or doesn't have the resources to delve into the Bible to the point of finding out if the Earth has four corners or if I must use my Heart for brain functions.
I am beginning to see the light so thanks for your guidance. I've never stopped believing in Jesus and I know what a rainbow is for.


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## formula1 (Oct 25, 2013)

*Re:*



Artfuldodger said:


> Well thanks, your belief is one end of the spectrum and some on this thread are at the other end.



These are not my belief! They are 100% the words of Jesus.  But I trust what He says is true and you can too!

If you don't, you can sort of head down the slippery slope that 'rjcruiser' mentioned.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 25, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Well thanks, your belief is one end of the spectrum and some on this thread are at the other end.
> I guess it is up to me to find out which end is true.
> I can't see God sending someone to He!! because he isn't smart enough or doesn't have the resources to delve into the Bible to the point of finding out if the Earth has four corners or if I must use my Heart for brain functions.
> I am beginning to see the light so thanks for your guidance. I've never stopped believing in Jesus and I know what a rainbow is for.



When the Corinthians thought they were getting it all figured out, Paul gave them a little reminder.

1 Cor. 1:
18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who [m]are perishing, but to us who [n]are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.”

20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the [o]message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for [p]signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach [q]Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For [r]consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29 so that no [t]man may boast before God. 30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, [v]and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”


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## HawgJawl (Oct 25, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Ok here is the question:
> I believe Jesus is the Son of God who died on a cross for my sins. He was buried, resurrected, and ascended into Heaven where he sits at the right hand of God. I truly believe this.
> 
> Must I also believe the whole world was flooded to all four corners? Another way of saying this is, do I have to believe in the literal flood and/or does the flood have to cover the whole world? Must I believe this with my physical heart instead of my brain?



God knows the heart.  God knows what a person truly believes.  There are many on this forum who profess that they believe every word in the Bible, but I don't think all of them are being honest.  I think there are many who secretly doubt some part of the Bible.  They either ignore or avoid those parts or they loudly profess that they believe every word.  I don't understand the reasoning for doing either, because they aren't fooling God.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 25, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> I think as you go down the path of picking and choosing what you believe and what you don't, it becomes a slippery slope that can quickly turn to disbelief in who the Bible says is Jesus and the salvation message.



That is true as long as Christians conjoin belief in the Bible with belief in Jesus.  When a lost person is told that believing every word in the Bible is necessary for salvation, they must make the decision to take it or leave it as a whole.  If that lost person feels confident that the earth has existed for more than 6 or 7 thousand years, they feel required to reject Christianity, because they were told they had to believe it all or none of it.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 25, 2013)

And then tell that person the Earth has four corners and we believe stuff with our hearts instead of our brains. Then tell that person a rainbow has no scientific explanation. Then tell that same person it's up to him to comprehend the Bible correctly because his salvation depends on it.
Then tell that person the only Holy Spirit we have today is the Bible, figure it our, trying isn't good enough.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 25, 2013)

It is commonly, and mistakenly, assumed that Christianity consists of a uniform set of fundamental beliefs. Although many assert that a person is a Christian only if he or she believes certain propositions, the particular propositions that one “must” believe have changed over the centuries and continue to change today. Christians – and there are two billion of them today – have always believed many different and often contradictory things.
Imposing uniformity of belief is a proven method of obtaining and maintaining political control. Three centuries after the death of Jesus, the emperor Constantine realized that controversies over belief threatened political stability in the Roman Empire. The most widespread disagreement in his time was between Christian followers of Arius, who believed Jesus was not divine, and followers of Athanasius, who asserted that Jesus had identity of being with God. To end this conflict Constantine called three hundred bishops to a meeting in Nicaea and demanded they agree on a uniform statement of what Christians should believe.

Constantine was not a theologian. His objective was not to impose a preselected set of his own beliefs. He wanted to obtain an agreement because eliminating conflict between Christian factors would strengthen him politically. That meeting in 325 CE produced the Nicene Creed.

There have been, and are today, many creeds and statements of “correct” belief. To name only a few of them: the Apostles’ Creed; the Athanasian Creed; the Augsburg Confession; the Scots Confession; the Heidelberg Catechism; Keach’s Catechism; the Mennonite Confession of Faith; and the Anglican Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion.

The First Council of Nicaea intended to produce a document that would establish a uniformity of belief once and for all, but homogeneity proved impossible. The version adopted in 325 was revised in 381 by a second ecumenical council, the First Council of Constantinople. The First Council of Ephesus in 431 reaffirmed the version of 325. Between 325 and 787 there were seven ecumenical councils called to resolve differences in theology. And, of course, there always have been and will continue to be a multitude of conflicting interpretations of the Nicene Creed.

http://www.buildfaith.org/2013/04/15/are-there-required-christian-beliefs/


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 25, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> When the Corinthians thought they were getting it all figured out, Paul gave them a little reminder.
> 
> 1 Cor. 1:
> 18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who [m]are perishing, but to us who [n]are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,
> ...




So are you saying if I put my faith in Jesus I don't have to figure anything else out or he'll help me figure out what I must do?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 25, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> God knows the heart.  God knows what a person truly believes.  There are many on this forum who profess that they believe every word in the Bible, but I don't think all of them are being honest.  I think there are many who secretly doubt some part of the Bible.  They either ignore or avoid those parts or they loudly profess that they believe every word.  I don't understand the reasoning for doing either, because they aren't fooling God.



I would have to agree. God knows what's in our hearts. He knows what we are capable of. We aren't all held to the exact same thing because we don't all have the same level of knowledge. If a pauper gives all he has to the poor and it's only $5.00 he has done more than a rich man giving $100.00.
What I do and can do matters to God and he knows what I can and can't do. He knows my abilities and he knows my weakness both of the flesh and spirit. He knows how hard I'm trying and to God this does matter. Not whether commas are in the right place in the Bible.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 25, 2013)

While trying to find out what Bible is inspired or if punctuation is inspired, people say comments like this:

That is why knowing the original languages and studying in the original languages is very beneficial.

Only the original authors were inspired. Translators are not inspired.

Comments like the two above don't really help the case of the Bible being inspired. Would God not also inspire the translators?

Some other points:
The early Greek manuscripts were done in continuous script. That means that there were no spaces between the words and no punctuation. This was done mainly because the resources to write on was exspensive, and it saved alot of room by doing it in continuous script.


But for your answer, scribes later added punctuation. But even today there are differences among Greek texts to what is correct punctuation. The Nestle Aland Greek text and the ABS Greek text are exactly the same as far as the Greek words but the only diffference is the punctuation. 

Different translators use different punctuation in their works. As any language evolves it takes upon different punctuation in order to express it's meaning.

But to give you a little word of warning, don't get hung up on who has the "inspired" punctuation. The transmission of the Bible is so very complex that there are are so many things that come into play, such as what manuscript tradition is the most reliable, or is it better to go the eclectic route or is it better to use a single manuscript. There is no original punctuation.
(punctuation added later would have to be inspired)

The original Hebrew text did not even have vowels, for goodness sake. That's why all we know of the Name of God as revealed to Moses is JHWH. The reader basically had to know how to pronounce ALL the words in the text. The vowel "points" were added much much later by scholars in Palestine called Masoretes, and instead of pointing God's unutterable Name, they pointed it with the vowels for "Adonai," i.e. "My Lord," which is why in traditional English translations fo the Hebrew Bible, when the Name of God appears, the text says "the LORD" in small caps. This mixture of God's Name with "my Lord" is where the name "Jehovah" comes from.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 25, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> So are you saying if I put my faith in Jesus I don't have to figure anything else out or he'll help me figure out what I must do?



I don't think I said either, Paul was talking so I tried to listen.  I think if you read the whole chapter (vss. 1-31) several times, carefully, each day, over a period of a week or two you'll probably end up closer to the latter.  But we won't know for sure until you do the exercise, will we?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 25, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> I don't think I said either, Paul was talking so I tried to listen.  I think if you read the whole chapter (vss. 1-31) several times, carefully, each day, over a period of a week or two you'll probably end up closer to the latter.  But we won't know for sure until you do the exercise, will we?



I'm willing to give it a try. I'll report back in a week or two.


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 19, 2013)

I'll be honest...I have not read all four pages of this thread...I'm too lazy and yes, I realize I'm like a month late to the party.  Oh well!



The premise of many of these questions and arguments are just flat out misguided and so it puts the focus on man and what's "fair" or "right" and then asks why God would allow sin, death destruction, etc. if he is good or all-knowing.

At the heart....the very beginning...is the first question in almost every catechism that we teach to our children.  Perhaps we should remember it.

"What is the chief end of man?", or "Who made you and why?" are the two most common.

The answer?  God made us.  God made everything....for his own glory and for no other reason.  He did not make us for our pleasure.  He made us to accomplish the purpose of bringing him glory.  So, if wiping out all man-kind but one accomplishes that purpose or is a step in accomplishing that purpose, it will be done (the "who is the clay to question the potter?" question I read early on).

Call him names if you like for that.  But creation has but one purpose...to bring God glory.  He chose to create humans and he chose to allow sin for the singular purpose of redemption and to show off his own glory.

Why did God flood the earth?  Because it was a step in the process of redemption that was put in place before time.  Noah survived because Jesus was to come later from his righteous line and accomplish the redemptive work at the cross...to bring God glory.

It is not a question of whether it was fair or whether God made a mistake.  He created the first humans and he created every other one up until the moment that first rain drop fell from the sky.  Yes...he knew they would die.  No, it was not a mistake.  It was a step that would lead to Christ coming, dieing and being risen all pointing to God's glory.

What an amazing story when you think about it.  Mankind rejected him once and was destroyed.  Mankind was given a second chance through Noah and rejected God again and, rather than destroy mankind again, God designed the story so that he himself would become one of the filthy creation, grab our rejection and sin and carry it on himself so that once and for all mankind could be reconciled to him simply through faith.  

Which story reflects his love and glory more?  Creation of two perfect robotically obedient humans....or prodigal children who do everything they can think of to spit in their father's face only to be rescued by his sacrificial death on their behalf?

Many will not worship a God that does not put their glory above his own.  If he did, he would not be much of a god at all.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 19, 2013)

I realize you didn't read the whole thread.  The focus wasn't really on it being "unfair".

If God planned it from the beginning, it is of such significance that we should try to understand it.  A great flood which wiped out everyone on earth is a much more profound demonstration of God's power than most of the events we spend years studying.

If it was planned and intended to teach us something, we should try to learn exactly what that is.


----------



## gordon 2 (Nov 19, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I realize you didn't read the whole thread.  The focus wasn't really on it being "unfair".
> 
> If God planned it from the beginning, it is of such significance that we should try to understand it.  A great flood which wiped out everyone on earth is a much more profound demonstration of God's power than most of the events we spend years studying.
> 
> If it was planned and intended to teach us something, we should try to learn exactly what that is.



This is the simplest lesson of it and perhaps the hardest to absorb: Mind your doctrines young man cause you never know when your father's  grand kids will need them to float.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 19, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> I'll be honest...I have not read all four pages of this thread...I'm too lazy and yes, I realize I'm like a month late to the party.  Oh well!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your answer doesn't say much for "free will. You make it appear everything was orchestrated by God for his glory.
God did make creation for his glory but evil wasn't a part of his creation. Something on the earth happened that God wanted to rid the earth of. We mentioned it being the Nephilim and the flood being a social cleansing. 
Did God make Adam knowing full well he would sin, the world would get so wicked, it would need to be flooded. He already had all this planned out before creation so that he could send his Son, whose really himself, to save the world? How did all that glorify God? How did evil coming into the world glorify God? 
Why didn't God just call off the whole project and move on to another planet? Reading your answer makes me feel more like a puppet instead of a slave to God.
It makes me feel like my whole life is already layed out in front of me and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it. Why, because i'm only here to glorify God. It is true that is why he made us but then evil appeared and has some control.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 19, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> Which story reflects his love and glory more?  Creation of two perfect robotically obedient humans....or prodigal children who do everything they can think of to spit in their father's face only to be rescued by his sacrificial death on their behalf?



If we truly are able to love, obey, help, hate, be jealous, get angry, then it's the prodigal children story. Notice that God also has emotions. We were made in his image. 
This prodigal children story is only believable if we can leave our Father and decide to return of our own free will.
Otherwise i'm just a puppet here for God's glory. Which would also make everything I do everyday a part of the Puppet master's plan.

Why don't we use your answer for every one of the Bible stories? Story number 5? It was for God's glory, next story?


----------



## hummerpoo (Nov 20, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> I'll be honest...I have not read all four pages of this thread...I'm too lazy and yes, I realize I'm like a month late to the party.  Oh well!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well and truely said.  But how sad that so few see it.  We can pray that is incorrect, and many see the true focus of it all.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 20, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I realize you didn't read the whole thread.  The focus wasn't really on it being "unfair".
> 
> If God planned it from the beginning, it is of such significance that we should try to understand it.  A great flood which wiped out everyone on earth is a much more profound demonstration of God's power than most of the events we spend years studying.
> 
> If it was planned and intended to teach us something, we should try to learn exactly what that is.



That's my point...it was not planned to teach us something.  At it's essence, it was part of the plan for redemption and it's primary purpose was to reveal God and his glory.  One of the things it accomplishes is to teach us something certainly.  But its ultimate purpose was not simply to teach a lesson and punish.

Creation is not about us.  It is about God.  That's a difficult reality for lots of people.


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 20, 2013)

> Did God make Adam knowing full well he would sin, the world would get so wicked, it would need to be flooded. He already had all this planned out before creation so that he could send his Son, whose really himself, to save the world?



Correct.  But for the express purpose of bringing glory to himself (which he deserves).  Pretty cool huh?


If God didn't know all of that, then he's not omniscient...is he?  There is no way to maintain what we know of his nature from scripture without his omniscience.  He sees the end from the beginning.

Quite honestly, if one doesn't acknowledge the omniscience of God in knowing what will happen before it happens, I don't see how it's possible that one worships the God of the Bible.





> Why, because i'm only here to glorify God.



What other purpose do you assume you have, based on your reading of scripture?  I'm curious.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 20, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> That's my point...it was not planned to teach us something.  At it's essence, it was part of the plan for redemption and it's primary purpose was to reveal God and his glory.
> 
> Creation is not about us.  It is about God.  That's a difficult reality for lots of people.



Who was redeemed by the Great Flood?

Noah and his family were judged by God to be "righteous" enough to spare.  Did the death of every other living thing on earth somehow redeem Noah and his family?

Did dying in sin somehow redeem all those who died?

Did the death of an entire sinful world (except for Noah and his family) somehow redeem future sinners?

Sacrificial offerings have always demanded the finest or purest to die as a sacrifice for others sins.  The wicked world that died in the Great Flood was not fine nor pure.


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 20, 2013)

> Why don't we use your answer for every one of the Bible stories? Story number 5? It was for God's glory, next story?



Again, Artful....what other answer do you have (based on scripture) for the purpose of every story other than for God's glory.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 20, 2013)

> Who was redeemed by the Great Flood?



Ultimately, all of us through the work at the cross of Jesus.  Noah was saved so that Jesus could come.



> Noah and his family were judged by God to be "righteous" enough to spare.  Did the death of every other living thing on earth somehow redeem Noah and his family?



No



> Did dying in sin somehow redeem all those who died?



No



> Did the death of an entire sinful world (except for Noah and his family) somehow redeem future sinners?



Kind of....it allowed for Jesus to come later.  The entire Bible points to Jesus from beginning to end.



> Sacrificial offerings have always demanded the finest or purest to die as a sacrifice for others sins.  The wicked world that died in the Great Flood was not fine nor pure.



No one has suggested that they were a sacrifice (at least that I'm aware of...I know I'm not suggesting that).


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## HawgJawl (Nov 20, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> Ultimately, all of us through the work at the cross of Jesus.  Noah was saved so that Jesus could come.
> 
> You present this as if God stepped in and chose to save Noah from a natural disaster.  The question is not why Noah was spared, the question is why God killed everyone else?
> 
> ...



I misunderstood.  I thought you were associating the Great Flood with redemption.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 20, 2013)

Maybe the flood has a much simpler explanation. Noah left the bathtub water running and fell asleep watching TV, so he needed a good story to get him out of trouble.


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## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

HF.....if I'm not on your ignore list (I wonder sometimes)....could you clarify this:



> ....it allowed for Jesus to come later.



Specifically in light of your view of omniscience.  I have said it a bunch on here, but I am slowly starting to think that the "Calvinist" view of God is the most consistent, but I still struggle with it in light of grace.  And, that's what we are discussing here, really, why would a flood bring glory if preordained, and why would a sacrifice be necessary if sin was foreseen before existence?

Not a trap here, just very curious as to your thoughts on that.  Also, if Hummer, Hayseed, Gemcgrew have a response I am very interested.

Thanks.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 20, 2013)

> You present this as if God stepped in and chose to save Noah from a natural disaster. The question is not why Noah was spared, the question is why God killed everyone else?



God didn't "step in" in the sense that he didn't see it coming...he ordained before time (biblically speaking).  Please understand, I'm not trying to argue you into submission on this.  I'm simply telling you why many Christians believe as they do and point out some misguided understanding of the way you present it.

I don't know why God killed everyone else.  The Bible tells us that he said he was sorry he made man.  So I assume they were deemed wicked and were punished.

I do want to clarify something I and others have said.  God did not wipe man out at the flood.  Noah and his family survived.  Creating man was not a mistake God made.



> Again, Noah was alive and having children before the flood. Jesus descending from Noah did not necessarily require the killing of everyone else on earth.



You're correct.  That's one of those "God chose to do it that way" things.  I'm not in his 'mind'.  I don't have an answer for his reasoning.

I do think it's amazing though that the line of Jesus was the only one preserved.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 20, 2013)

> HF.....if I'm not on your ignore list (I wonder sometimes)....could you clarify this:
> 
> 
> Quote:
> ....it allowed for Jesus to come later.




"it allowed" in the sense of "it was a preordained and foreknown step in the process".




> why would a flood bring glory if preordained, and why would a sacrifice be necessary if sin was mandated before existence?




In my mind, you cannot look at individual stories in isolation.  The entire Bible points to Jesus and the redemption that he brought.  Redemption, not for the glory of man but to radiate the glory of God.

He is so powerful that he can allow something so horrific to enter the picture and still know from the beginning that he will conquer it and show off his own might.

Also....FYI, I don't have an ignore list and I'm not a Calvinist.  I grew up Weslyan Arminian and am now part of what I suppose is a Baptist (theologically) congregation because I have grown to love the people there and their heart for the Lord, not because I always agree with everything they say.

Somehow (and I can't articulate it well), I believe in both full predestination and in free will.  In my mind, one concept does not exclude the other.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 20, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> Correct.  But for the express purpose of bringing glory to himself (which he deserves).  Pretty cool huh?
> 
> 
> If God didn't know all of that, then he's not omniscient...is he?  There is no way to maintain what we know of his nature from scripture without his omniscience.  He sees the end from the beginning.
> ...



That's a strange way to seek glory, controlling the whole course of events of our daily lives. My purpose is to glorify God. What about evil's purpose? Where did evil come from? Why did God make an adversary? How did Satan's creation help God's glory? How does man's sin help God's glory? Why did the Old Testament times take so long if it's only purpose was to show us we need a Messiah?
Causing a flood to use as an example of needing a Messiah is a bit of an extreme. 
Doesn't God say he was upset or sad that he had even made man? why would he say this? How can God have any emotions?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 20, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> I do think it's amazing though that the line of Jesus was the only one preserved.




How did the Gentile lineage come about?


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 20, 2013)

> What about evil's purpose?



To glorify God in its ultimate defeat.  Have you read Revelation?  Pretty glorifying events when evil is ultimately defeated...don't you think?



> Where did evil come from? Why did God make an adversary? How did Satan's creation help God's glory? How does man's sin help God's glory? Why did the Old Testament times take so long if it's only purpose was to show us we need a Messiah?
> Causing a flood to use as an example of needing a Messiah is a bit of an extreme.
> Doesn't God say he was upset or sad that he had even made man? why would he say this? How can God have any emotions?



Wow....that's a whole bunch of questions right there.  Would take me a long time to even try to answer them.

But....sin, Satan, Messiah, flood....all of it points to God in the Bible.  I suppose I would ask you again, what other purpose do you see for yourself, sin, Satan and a Messiah?

It's important that you be able to articulate the counter if you're going to disagree with my premise that all of it has only one purpose.


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 20, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> How did the Gentile lineage come about?



Trees have lots of branches?


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## Huntinfool (Nov 20, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's a strange way to seek glory, controlling the whole course of events of our daily lives.



Have you heard of God's two wills?


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## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> "it allowed" in the sense of "it was a preordained and foreknown step in the process".



Gotcha.




Huntinfool said:


> "In my mind, you cannot look at individual stories in isolation.  The entire Bible points to Jesus and the redemption that he brought.  Redemption, not for the glory of man but to radiate the glory of God.He is so powerful that he can allow something so horrific to enter the picture and still know from the beginning that he will conquer it and show off his own might.



That's  where the confusion comes in, for me sometimes, in that, I view redemption as for man's benefit based on God's love.  The view you are explaining really takes love out of the equation as we would understand it.....if that makes any sense.  



Huntinfool said:


> "Also....FYI, I don't have an ignore list and I'm not a Calvinist.  I grew up Weslyan Arminian and am now part of what I suppose is a Baptist (theologically) congregation because I have grown to love the people there and their heart for the Lord, not because I always agree with everything they say.



I use the term loosley for a lack of anything better to describe what you are saying.  I would think your ideas of omniscience would mean we are preordained to either believe or not, which would make believers "elect."

I know that's not a totally accurate term, I just don't know what else to call it.  Apologies.


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 20, 2013)

> That's where the confusion comes in, for me sometimes, in that, I view redemption as for man's benefit based on God's love. The view you are explaining really takes love out of the equation as we would understand it.....if that makes any sense.



Certainly it benefits us and is for our benefit.  The Bible cleary tells us that he redeems us because he loves us.  But, let me ask you this...

...based on your reading of scripture, what actually happens in Heaven?  Read through Revelation...what are the beings there doing the entire time?

If redemption is not to bring glory to him, then what is the purpose?




> I use the term loosley for a lack of anything better to describe what you are saying. I would think your ideas of omniscience would mean we are preordained to either believe or not, which would make believers "elect."



Omniscient means all knowing.  So, if you believe the Bible indicates that God is all knowing, then he either knows ALL or he doesn't.....right?

I think the mistake we sometimes make is that we equate "pre-ordained" with "forced".


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> ...based on your reading of scripture, what actually happens in Heaven?  Read through Revelation...what are the beings there doing the entire time?



I believe in Revelation they are singing praises.  We have discussed this in the past, but Heaven is one of those subjects which are really confusing to me.  I have not studied it much, and have difficulty discerning between concepts I was taught and what the Bible actually says.

My last look at Revelation was when I was digging into preterism......and that was challenging.



Huntinfool said:


> If redemption is not to bring glory to him, then what is the purpose?



Honestly, I never thought about it beyond the personal level.  The fact that I can be redeemed is an indication of God's goodness.  The obvious response is that the need for redemption in a preordained universe could mean otherwise to the individual who would consider himself on the "losing end" of glory (a flood victim)....

.....which is why I am really slow to claim one side or the other on this one.  Two years ago, I was a die hard free will-type, who thought omniscience could not mean "knows the future."  Now, I see a pre ordained universe as the most consistent position from a Biblical perspective, but struggle with the grace aspect described above.



Huntinfool said:


> Omniscient means all knowing.  So, if you believe the Bible indicates that God is all knowing, then he either knows ALL or he doesn't.....right?



Regardless of all the mental acrobatics I have tried to the contrary, you are correct.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 20, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> God didn't "step in" in the sense that he didn't see it coming...he ordained before time (biblically speaking).
> 
> I don't know why God killed everyone else.  The Bible tells us that he said he was sorry he made man.  So I assume they were deemed wicked and were punished.
> 
> I do want to clarify something I and others have said.  God did not wipe man out at the flood.  Noah and his family survived.  Creating man was not a mistake God made.



I'm confused as to whether you believe that the Great Flood was part of the plan from before creation of the earth, or you believe it was a reaction to the wicked condition of the world at the time.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 20, 2013)

Yes.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 20, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> Yes.



Come on now.

Planned Action  vs.  Unplanned Reaction

It can't be both.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 20, 2013)

How bout this...

Planned Action and Consequence


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 20, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> How bout this...
> 
> Planned Action and Consequence



What are your thoughts on post #24 of this thread?


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 20, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> Somehow (and I can't articulate it well), I believe in both full predestination and in free will.  In my mind, one concept does not exclude the other.


I know why you can't articulate it well.


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 20, 2013)

> What are your thoughts on post #24 of this thread?





> Why would God intentionally create a sinful mankind just to destroy it? If God had known the future, instead of creating a world to destroy and start over, he would have started on a different course that would have avoided this entire event. Instead of starting over with Noah, He could have just started with Noah from the very beginning.



This is one of the things I pointed out earlier.  God did not destroy mankind.  Had he, you and I would not be having this discussion.

To take your logic further, why would he bother with Noah in the first place?  Just create Adam and Eve and don't allow sin.  Then you don't even need Jesus to come.  That would make more 'sense', right?

It seems that you're trying to understand God's plan from creation to end.  Am I right?  If that's the case....I'll be honest....I ain't got the answers you're looking for.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 20, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I know why you can't articulate it well.



  No....you don't.  'Free will', to me, does not mean what you think it means.


I'll pick this up with y'all tomorrow.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 20, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> This is one of the things I pointed out earlier.  God did not destroy mankind.  Had he, you and I would not be having this discussion.
> 
> To take your logic further, why would he bother with Noah in the first place?  Just create Adam and Eve and don't allow sin.  Then you don't even need Jesus to come.  That would make more 'sense', right?
> 
> It seems that you're trying to understand God's plan from creation to end.  Am I right?  If that's the case....I'll be honest....I ain't got the answers you're looking for.



I was really more interested in your thoughts on post #24 as it pertains to knowing the future verses regret.


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 20, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> No....you don't.  'Free will', to me, does not mean what you think it means.
> 
> 
> I'll pick this up with y'all tomorrow.


Please tell me when you can. The will has freedom relative to what? Is man free from God or his control in any sense? In my question, God is the absolute reference point.


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Specifically in light of your view of omniscience.  I have said it a bunch on here, but I am slowly starting to think that the "Calvinist" view of God is the most consistent, but I still struggle with it in light of grace.  And, that's what we are discussing here, really, why would a flood bring glory if preordained, and why would a sacrifice be necessary if sin was foreseen before existence?


Purposed from eternity.


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 22, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> No....you don't.  'Free will', to me, does not mean what you think it means.
> 
> 
> I'll pick this up with y'all tomorrow.


"Tomorrow" has come and gone. What interfered with your will?


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## Huntinfool (Nov 22, 2013)

God's will I suppose...right?


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## Huntinfool (Nov 22, 2013)

What I mean by free will is probably better said 'freedom of action within his purpose'.

All is under his control at all times, or he would not be God.  I suppose the best way I can articulate it is that sometimes God allows things to happen that he may not approve of.  Sometimes he allows us enough rope to hang ourselves perhaps?


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 22, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> What I mean by free will is probably better said 'freedom of action within his purpose'.
> 
> All is under his control at all times, or he would not be God.  I suppose the best way I can articulate it is that sometimes God allows things to happen that he may not approve of.  Sometimes he allows us enough rope to hang ourselves perhaps?


So the best way you can articulate it is with inconsistencies and contradictions?


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## Huntinfool (Nov 24, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> So the best way you can articulate it is with inconsistencies and contradictions?



God allowed something he didn't approve of at the cross. I suppose he contradicted himself with an inconsistency?


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## gemcgrew (Nov 24, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> God allowed something he didn't approve of at the cross.


This is for you to show. While you are showing it, please tell me how "allowed" or "permitted" is any different from "caused". Again, the God of the Bible being the absolute reference point.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 25, 2013)

The God of the Bible does not approve of sin nor does he desire that we sin.  Disagree?


----------



## gemcgrew (Nov 25, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> The God of the Bible does not approve of sin nor does he desire that we sin.  Disagree?


I say that the God of the Bible is righteous, holy and good. So we know that he has a righteous, holy and good purpose for sin. You have touched on that purpose multiple times in this thread.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> This is for you to show. While you are showing it, please tell me how "allowed" or "permitted" is any different from "caused". Again, the God of the Bible being the absolute reference point.



It is hard to show our free will against a God who caused or allowed Adam to sin, the Great Flood, the Old Testament as a way to show we couldn't follow a bunch of laws, and Jesus as our only way out of this whole mess.
It's hard to imagine God caused or permitted all that and much, much more, but allows me to choose not to die next year by altering my eating and exercise habits.
Please show me the difference too. I've looked at clouds from both sides now. I still can't explain it.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 26, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I say that the God of the Bible is righteous, holy and good. So we know that he has a righteous, holy and good purpose for sin.



Judas betraying Jesus was prophesied and was necessary to accomplish God's plan.  There is no doubt that Judas would betray Jesus.  Judas did not have free will to decide not to betray Jesus.

With that in mind, was it a sin?  Was it an act that Judas chose and should be held accountable for?


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## ambush80 (Nov 26, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Judas betraying Jesus was prophesied and was necessary to accomplish God's plan.  There is no doubt that Judas would betray Jesus.  Judas did not have free will to decide not to betray Jesus.
> 
> With that in mind, was it a sin?  Was it an act that Judas chose and should be held accountable for?



It was a sin.  Judas didn't choose but he will burn anyway.  He is a vessel of wrath. like Pharaoh.

None of us choose.  We are doing exactly as we should in the perfect plan.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 26, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Judas betraying Jesus was prophesied and was necessary to accomplish God's plan.  There is no doubt that Judas would betray Jesus.  Judas did not have free will to decide not to betray Jesus.
> 
> With that in mind, was it a sin?  Was it an act that Judas chose and should be held accountable for?


He is accountable for his sins. He is accountable because God has decreed for there to be a judgement. Freedom of choice is not relevant to accountability.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 26, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Freedom of choice is not relevant to accountability.



I don't think I understand this statement.

Could you give me an example of this principle in our everyday life such as in the workplace?


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## gemcgrew (Nov 26, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I don't think I understand this statement.
> 
> Could you give me an example of this principle in our everyday life such as in the workplace?


Yes, we are accountable for any sin we commit in the workplace. We are accountable because God is determined to judge us. We are accountable not because we have freedom from God. We are accountable because we are not free from God. He is going to judge us.


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## BT Charlie (Nov 26, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> It was a sin.  Judas didn't choose but he will burn anyway.  He is a vessel of wrath. like Pharaoh.
> 
> None of us choose.  We are doing exactly as we should in the perfect plan.





Judas loved money.  I agree his betrayal was horrific sin. God knew every hair on his head before the earth was formed. That doesn't alleviate Judas' heart problem.  It remained, until he took his own life. 

Ambush, I don't understand your other comments...are 
you saying Judas' heart had nothing to do with his greed and betrayal of Christ?  And what of Caiphas' heart? 

(Can you please tell me about your Avatar ... I have seen that photo around in connection with the term Nephilim in search engine results. Where did the photo come from? My understanding is Nephilim were all males -- hybrid of human mothers and fallen angel fathers.  The human gene pool was contaminated save for Noah and his sons.  But the Nephilim gene could be passed by females, such as Noah's daughter-in-law.  

Interesting that Genesis 6 says Nephilim existed before 
and after the flood.  And giants were battled in the promised land, and Peter says as it was in the days of Noah so it will be ... . )


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2013)

So did Judas have a choice? Did Jesus have a choice? Did the Jews that persecuted Jesus have a choice?
Either they all had a choice or none of them did. Either God is in total control or he isn't in total control. Either God hardens peoples hearts or they do it to themselves. If God looks into the future to know that Judas would harden his on heart and thus uses Judas to betray Jesus, Judas didn't have a choice. He was predestined to harden his own heart. In predestiny, it doesn't matter if God hardens your heart or you do it, your fate is doomed.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2013)

How do we pick and choose what is our free will and what part of our life is controlled by God when we read in the Bible things like the Flood were planned from the beginning. God knew he would be disappointed in Man.
Jesus wept.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 26, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Yes, we are accountable for any sin we commit in the workplace. We are accountable because God is determined to judge us. We are accountable not because we have freedom from God. We are accountable because we are not free from God. He is going to judge us.



You know that's not what I meant.  I'm talking about the relationship between Authority and Accountability.  When you have authority over a decision, accountability comes as a consequence.  Likewise, you should not be held accountable for the results of a decision which you had no authority over.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 26, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> You know that's not what I meant.


Yes, I did know that, but I kept my answer within the context of our discussion.


HawgJawl said:


> I'm talking about the relationship between Authority and Accountability.


So am I. The difference is that I am mindful of God.


HawgJawl said:


> Likewise, you should not be held accountable for the results of a decision which you had no authority over.


Paul already addressed your objection in Romans 9.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2013)

Romans 9:17 sums up who hardens whomever  hearts.

For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Pharoah was made for God's purpose, as was Isaac and Judas.


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## hummerpoo (Nov 27, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 9:17 sums up who hardens whomever  hearts.
> 
> For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
> 
> Pharoah was made for God's purpose, as was Isaac and Judas.



...as were Ishmael and Peter? ... as were hummer and Art?


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## ambush80 (Nov 27, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Judas loved money.  I agree his betrayal was horrific sin. God knew every hair on his head before the earth was formed. That doesn't alleviate Judas' heart problem.  It remained, until he took his own life.
> 
> Ambush, I don't understand your other comments...are
> you saying Judas' heart had nothing to do with his greed and betrayal of Christ?  And what of Caiphas' heart?
> ...





Artfuldodger said:


> So did Judas have a choice? Did Jesus have a choice? Did the Jews that persecuted Jesus have a choice?
> Either they all had a choice or none of them did. Either God is in total control or he isn't in total control. Either God hardens peoples hearts or they do it to themselves. If God looks into the future to know that Judas would harden his on heart and thus uses Judas to betray Jesus, Judas didn't have a choice. He was predestined to harden his own heart. In predestiny, it doesn't matter if God hardens your heart or you do it, your fate is doomed.





Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 9:17 sums up who hardens whomever  hearts.
> 
> For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
> 
> Pharoah was made for God's purpose, as was Isaac and Judas.





hummerpoo said:


> ...as were Ishmael and Peter? ... as were hummer and Art?




Can't avoid it.  Gem's way is the only way to be logically consistent with a sovereign, all mighty, omniscient, omnipotent God.  

As for the Nephilim lady:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/people/tallwoman.asp

Don't be so gullible.


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## barryl (Nov 27, 2013)

Been watchin' this thread a few days. Romans 9:17, What about God using his foreknowledge? Exodus 3:19 Don't want to set off the TULIP Bomb but why not see what "all the scripture" has to say about "all the scripture." "Book of Exodus" has the answer. Happy Thanksgiving!!!!!!!


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2013)

barryl said:


> Been watchin' this thread a few days. Romans 9:17, What about God using his foreknowledge? Exodus 3:19 Don't want to set off the TULIP Bomb but why not see what "all the scripture" has to say about "all the scripture." "Book of Exodus" has the answer. Happy Thanksgiving!!!!!!!



I started a new thread on Exodus. Could you explain the answer on this thread or the Exodus thread?


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## gemcgrew (Nov 28, 2013)

barryl said:


> ...why not see what "all the scripture" has to say about "all the scripture." "Book of Exodus" has the answer. Happy Thanksgiving!!!!!!!


Irony


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