# Native Americans in the census pre 1900



## SarahFair

Before 1850 race was marked black or white later they were marked black, white, or mulato. What were native Americans marked as during these time periods?


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## lagrangedave

Casualties............


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## Jeff C.

NA.


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## BubbaFett

They generally weren't included in the census until the 1900's.  The few who do show up show as "Ind." or "Indian".


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## NE GA Pappy

You will find them listed in the rolls of the Indian nations.  I know the Cherokee had the eastern band roll, and the western band.


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## westcobbdog

None that I see on Ancestry.


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## SarahFair

Would they try and pass as white?


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## NCHillbilly

Indians weren't considered to be citizens of the US for a long time, so therefore, weren't subject to the census I would guess. In the early 1800s, for example, the state of Georgia declared that Indians within the state borders couldn't own property or testify against a white man in court, which basically gave squatters the right to shoot the Indians and take their land, with the encouragement of the government. As Pappy said, most eastern tribes had tribal rolls starting in the early 1800s. Membership in the Eastern Band of Cherokees is still dependent on having an ancestor on one of those old rolls, as I understand it.


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## Hoot

My family tree stops at two Cherokee names on my father's side.  I haven't researched it further, through Cherokee records.  Both of his parent's ancestors (a great, and a great-great grandmother).  It is said that the family did not talk about that, back then.  It was like those interracial marriages were taboo - much like black/white relationships were really taboo at one time.

The way the natives were treated, and practically exterminated is one of the reasons I am not proud to be white or American.  This country has done some really, really despicable things.


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## Wire Nut

Natives are listed on the Dawes Roll. Me and my kids are members of the western band. The Dawes Roll was the last census taken of Native American federally recognized tribes and it was taken a long time ago.


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## redneck_billcollector

SarahFair said:


> Would they try and pass as white?



Yes, I think it was the 1840 Census that got destroyed which was right after the removal act.  People started popping up on the census that had not been on there before in the 1850 one.  Especially in the south where if they were found, a lot of times they were still moved west.  There was still sporadic fighting going on in the deep southeast at this time due to the Seminole war.  There were acts passed allowing southeastern natives to be assimilated, but for the most part they were ignored.


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## redneck_billcollector

Hoot said:


> My family tree stops at two Cherokee names on my father's side.  I haven't researched it further, through Cherokee records.  Both of his parent's ancestors (a great, and a great-great grandmother).  It is said that the family did not talk about that, back then.  It was like those interracial marriages were taboo - much like black/white relationships were really taboo at one time.
> 
> The way the natives were treated, and practically exterminated is one of the reasons I am not proud to be white or American.  This country has done some really, really despicable things.



And the natives didn't? At the Battle of Horseshoe Bend, Cherokees aligned with the Tenn. units shot Red Sticks swimming in the river trying to escape.  Creeks from the Lower Towns took part in that massacre too.  The major fighting during the first Seminole war was carried out by Lower Creeks led by William McIntosh who's creeks burned most every Seminole town between the Apalachicola and the Suwannee Rivers.  Choctaw and Cherokee units fought with the US during the second Seminole war....the list goes on and on as you move westward...Crows, Utes, Blackfeet are just some of the tribes that fought on the side of the US, not to mention that during the Apache wars many of the hostile apaches were caught by fellow apaches.


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## Jeffriesw

Hoot said:


> My family tree stops at two Cherokee names on my father's side.  I haven't researched it further, through Cherokee records.  Both of his parent's ancestors (a great, and a great-great grandmother).  It is said that the family did not talk about that, back then.  It was like those interracial marriages were taboo - much like black/white relationships were really taboo at one time.
> 
> The way the natives were treated, and practically exterminated is one of the reasons I am not proud to be white or American.  This country has done some really, really despicable things.



The evil that is in the heart of man is not relegated to one race or another, but is universal. 

Jeremiah 17:9 
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick;who can understand it?


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## Kawaliga

Lots of mixed blood Creeks moved to the NW Florida panhandle area just before and during the removal to Oklahoma and Arkansas. My ancestors were part of that and went to what is now Santa Rosa county in 1827 to keep from being forcibly removed. That area was wilderness then, and folks could mind their own business and get lost. Some of these families included Fosters, Hardys, Jernigans,Allens,Hendersons,Simpsons and Browns. My ancestors passed as white on the 1840 census, and they were no exception for that area around what is now Red Rock in the Munson, Florida part of the county.


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## redneck_billcollector

Kawaliga said:


> Lots of mixed blood Creeks moved to the NW Florida panhandle area just before and during the removal to Oklahoma and Arkansas. My ancestors were part of that and went to what is now Santa Rosa county in 1827 to keep from being forcibly removed. That area was wilderness then, and folks could mind their own business and get lost. Some of these families included Fosters, Hardys, Jernigans,Allens,Hendersons,Simpsons and Browns. My ancestors passed as white on the 1840 census, and they were no exception for that area around what is now Red Rock in the Munson, Florida part of the county.



The 1840 census was lost to fire if I am not mistaken.  That is important because it was the first census after the removal act.  There are a number of people showing up on the 1850 census in West Ga that you would be hard pressed to find on any prior census.  Many Creeks tried to assimilate because they either had to have fought in the second Creek war, move west or try to hook up with some Seminoles in Fla. or blend in. Local militias in Washington, Jackson, Bay and Walton Counties in Fla. were still hunting down and killing anyone they thought were Creeks into the early 1840s.  I have posted some interesting reports on these activities in other threads in this forum.  One of the last "hostile" creeks killed in Fla. was an outlaw killed at either Philips Inlet on the Bay / Walton Co. line or at St. Andrews Pass, the reports vary as to the exact location. This was in the late 40s or early 50s if my memory serves me, I posted the news 
story of his killing in another thread on here somewhere.

As for the migration to Fla of people from GA and other areas in the 1830s and 40s, many were outlaws from various regions and went to Fla for many reasons.  There was also a huge wild cattle population that led to many migrating adventurers who became "cow hunters" to sell to Cuba for gold. There was always some level of conflict with Natives throughout the first half of the 19th century in Fla. The conflicts with the Seminoles simmered until the mid-50s when they finally kind of just petered out.


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## Kdad

I'm related to Chief Osceola by marriage on my dad's side, we also lived right down the road from Fort Christmas. I'm related to the Cherokee on my mom's side but don't know who, was told when I was little, now I don't remember. Grandmother was a Daughter of the Confederacy, I'm related to a gentleman named Hand and a few others but we had people on both sides that go towards direct dissent, so I've got alot to get figured out. Some are known and others are just records of enlistment.


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## Kawaliga

Redneck, I was talking about the 1840 Santa Rosa county Florida census. It was not lost to fire.


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## northgeorgiasportsman

Hoot said:


> The way the natives were treated, and practically exterminated is one of the reasons I am not proud to be white or American.  This country has done some really, really despicable things.



I think that's really sad.  You're not proud of who you are, not because of something you've done, but because of what was done by others long before you were born and something you have no control over.


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## redneck_billcollector

Kdad said:


> I'm related to Chief Osceola by marriage on my dad's side, we also lived right down the road from Fort Christmas. I'm related to the Cherokee on my mom's side but don't know who, was told when I was little, now I don't remember. Grandmother was a Daughter of the Confederacy, I'm related to a gentleman named Hand and a few others but we had people on both sides that go towards direct dissent, so I've got alot to get figured out. Some are known and others are just records of enlistment.



Osceola was originally from Alabama, from the Upper Creek town of Tallassee and his family fled when he was a child to Florida during the Creek civil war. His given name was Billy Powell.  If I am not mistaken he was part white, I think 3/4, his father, William Powell, was white and his mother  was half white or even more than half white, but I might be mistaken on the amount. Osceola took two wives, one was African and the other was Indian.  They think he had five children, who would have all died or been taken into slavery or would have been moved to Oklahoma.  Interestingly enough, and it is a common misconception, Osceola was never a Chief of any type, he did lead a war band of younger natives and was considered a "hot head" amongst many of the Seminoles. He part took in the assassination of an indian agent named Wiley Thompson (Thompson considered Osceola a friend and it is believed he was killed with a rifle he gave Osceola as a gift) and that assassination in part is what led to the second Seminole War.


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## redneck_billcollector

Kawaliga said:


> Redneck, I was talking about the 1840 Santa Rosa county Florida census. It was not lost to fire.



Censuses were not kept in a central area until the census act of 1840, I know the GA census burned up in a fire.


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## Hoot

northgeorgiasportsman said:


> I think that's really sad.  You're not proud of who you are, not because of something you've done, but because of what was done by others long before you were born and something you have no control over.



I was just saying that I am not proud of this country because of a few major factors in what made this country, such as slavery, genocide and the controlling factor of greed.


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## redneck_billcollector

Hoot said:


> I was just saying that I am not proud of this country because of a few major factors in what made this country, such as slavery, genocide and the controlling factor of greed.



The Creek, Cherokee and Seminole all kept slaves, to include African slaves.  As for the genocide, well, in most wars against the Indians, other Indians played a huge role on the side of the Americans.  There is not a culture out there, NOT ONE that at one time or other was not guilty of what you claim to be ashamed of.  I would just point out, in the first Seminole War, it was lower Creeks who killed the majority of the "Seminole" Indians.  The US was never short of Indians who allied with us in every campaign against other Indians and it was the Indians allies, in many cases, that carried out wanton killing against the US's enemies.  It was not Jackson who burned all the "Seminole" towns between Apalachicola and St. Marks, it was Lower Creeks under the command of McIntosh.


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## redneck_billcollector

Kdad said:


> I'm related to Chief Osceola by marriage on my dad's side, we also lived right down the road from Fort Christmas. I'm related to the Cherokee on my mom's side but don't know who, was told when I was little, now I don't remember. Grandmother was a Daughter of the Confederacy, I'm related to a gentleman named Hand and a few others but we had people on both sides that go towards direct dissent, so I've got alot to get figured out. Some are known and others are just records of enlistment.



The Hands are a big family in Pelham GA, Mitchell Co.  The Cherokees help defeat the Red Sticks, which is the side Osceola's family was on during the Creek Civil War. He was from Northern Alabama as I stated earlier in this thread.


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## Kdad

Thanks BC for the info, now ya got me having to look for even more stuff. Wasn't worth a toot in school, now I can get enough history.... Crazy how that happens

Thompson is also my mothers maiden name, your killing me... If I recall, her mother was at least half Cherokee. It's pretty evident in the pictures of her(my grandmother) of the Indian traits. I'll have to get in touch with my uncle about her, he lives in Vidalia btw. He turns wooden bowls for retirement fun.

To add even more, mom's mothers maiden name was Holcombe. Now how much more deeper am I getting???


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## redneck_billcollector

Kdad said:


> Thanks BC for the info, now ya got me having to look for even more stuff. Wasn't worth a toot in school, now I can get enough history.... Crazy how that happens
> 
> Thompson is also my mothers maiden name, your killing me... If I recall, her mother was at least half Cherokee. It's pretty evident in the pictures of her(my grandmother) of the Indian traits. I'll have to get in touch with my uncle about her, he lives in Vidalia btw. He turns wooden bowls for retirement fun.
> 
> To add even more, mom's mothers maiden name was Holcombe. Now how much more deeper am I getting???



Tracing genealogy with southeastern Indians is rather frustrating for a number of reasons.  First off, records were rarely kept by the agents other than the population of the towns and outlying settlements. They were more interested in how many head of cattle and horses were owned than the names of the various people.  Secondly, lineage was traced through the mother as opposed to being through the father, a child was considered part of the mother's family as opposed to the father's family, this creates many problems too.  This was the case even when the father was white, that is why many of the powerful Creek and Seminole leaders were half white or more, because the white traders tended to marry women from prominent clans and families. Third off, the name an indian was given at birth would not be the name he went by as an adult.  To complicate this, many had white names and Indian names.  Osceola is a fine example.  Not many know his name was Billy Powell, he did not take the name Osceola until he was a teenager and proved himself a man, and his mother gave it to him.  Just as William McIntosh Jr. was known as Taskanugi Hatki or White Warrior.  Fourth off, there was a huge movement pushed by the US Government for assimilation.  To leave the towns and take up so called "white ways".  This is what led to the rise of the prophet's movement that was the major underlying factor leading to the Creek Civil War, what we call either the Red Sticks War or the 1st Creek War.  And I would argue the 1st Seminole War was nothing more than a continuation of the Creek Civil War. Fifth off, the relations between whites and the natives varied drastically depending on who you were. If you were an immigrant to GA from the Carolinas looking for land, you hated the Creeks, many immigrants were squatters on Creek land and were killed or either arrested by one of the few sheriffs or agents who actually cared about the law.  The issue of slavery was another reason for friction. The Creeks and what became known as the Seminoles kept African slaves.  Slave hunters who got bounties for catching run away slaves would raid these towns and catch the Africans and either sale them back into slavery. Plus, many run away slaves sought refugee in Florida amongst the natives there. The Spanish Government allowed them to create towns next to the Indian towns.  Many became prominent Seminole warriors later on.  Prior to the Creek Civil War, there was still some hostility due to the Creek's role in the American Revolution.  Many don't know this, the first treaty ever ratified by congress was the treaty of New York, which involved the Creek Confederation and ended fighting in GA in 1790 that kept on after the British and Americans had stopped fighting.  Plus, ever since the Spanish Government regained Florida at the end of the Revolution, they stirred up trouble on the frontier with GA, and what is now Southwest GA was a contested area, both the Spanish and Americans claimed it.  The British were helping the Spanish in this endeavor too. Then you have the biggy, with all southeastern natives, the Removal Act.  This led to the Second Creek War and the Second Seminole War.  This gave the remaining Creeks in GA and Alabama and North Florida a few choices, fight, which many Lower Creeks did (the ones that had remained in GA were huge allies of the Americans until the removal act against both the Seminoles and the Upper Creeks), Move to Florida and join the Seminoles, which is what many did too, go to Oklahoma, which a goodly bit did too or, disappear as a white person in the sparsely populated South Ga frontier. A number of Creeks did that. They took on names like Jones, Baker, or whatever the common family names were of the day.  That is why there are no Federally recognized Muskogee Bands left in GA nor any Federally recognized Miccosukee Bands left in GA either.  The above is only a small part of the reason it is hard to trace genealogy amongst the Creeks and Seminoles in GA and ALA, Florida is another story though.  Plus the fact that at times the Indians had less rights than the Africans in GA, they were seen as an impediment to expansion both population wise and economic.  The desire for land for cotton production after the invention of the cotton gin spurred the drive for new lands to plant.


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## Kdad

Very deep, thank you. I've got a lil work to do... To say the least.


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## Hoot

redneck_billcollector said:


> The Creek, Cherokee and Seminole all kept slaves, to include African slaves.  As for the genocide, well, in most wars against the Indians, other Indians played a huge role on the side of the Americans.  There is not a culture out there, NOT ONE that at one time or other was not guilty of what you claim to be ashamed of.  I would just point out, in the first Seminole War, it was lower Creeks who killed the majority of the "Seminole" Indians.  The US was never short of Indians who allied with us in every campaign against other Indians and it was the Indians allies, in many cases, that carried out wanton killing against the US's enemies.  It was not Jackson who burned all the "Seminole" towns between Apalachicola and St. Marks, it was Lower Creeks under the command of McIntosh.



Very true.  No such thing as a noble culture.


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## redneck_billcollector

Kdad said:


> Very deep, thank you. I've got a lil work to do... To say the least.



Have fun, you are setting out on a quest that can prove both enriching and frustrating at the same time. Don't discount Ancestry.com or any other genealogy site.  They give you easy access to census rolls county by county.  They also give you access to grave records and thousands of county marriage, birth and death records.  Ancestry also has a DNA data bank and can tell you your genetic history to include native markers and such.  I personally love the history of my part of the state, SOWEGA, it is full of history involving conflict with the natives from even before GA was a colony (the Battle of the Blankets is an example on the banks of the Flint River in Worth Co.).  The role that Britain, Spain, France to a lesser extent, and the young US Government along with the government of a young GA is fascinating.  Another interesting read are the few accounts of Desoto's travels through GA.  William Bartram has some interesting writings too.  Do not discount Benjamin Hawkin's diaries and surveys done at the beginning of the 19th Century, his writings do more to shed a light on the natives in GA at that time.


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## Kdad

Thanks for the leads, I'm better now than what I started with. Much appreciative of the insight and help.


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## redneck_billcollector

I am reading an interesting history of the second Seminole War, I never knew that General Jesup wanted to bring Sioux, Miami and Fox Indians to Florida to fight the Seminole. The Creeks he used in his first campaign had done a good job, but when they found out how their families were being treated by the army in Alabama they kind of stopped being so effective. He did not get any Sioux, Miami or Fox,  but he did get some Shawnee and Choctaw to fight there. They turned out not to be effective in the Swamps of central FLA.


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## westcobbdog

redneck_billcollector said:


> Have fun, you are setting out on a quest that can prove both enriching and frustrating at the same time. Don't discount Ancestry.com or any other genealogy site.  They give you easy access to census rolls county by county.  They also give you access to grave records and thousands of county marriage, birth and death records.  Ancestry also has a DNA data bank and can tell you your genetic history to include native markers and such.  I personally love the history of my part of the state, SOWEGA, it is full of history involving conflict with the natives from even before GA was a colony (the Battle of the Blankets is an example on the banks of the Flint River in Worth Co.).  The role that Britain, Spain, France to a lesser extent, and the young US Government along with the government of a young GA is fascinating.  Another interesting read are the few accounts of Desoto's travels through GA.  William Bartram has some interesting writings too.  Do not discount Benjamin Hawkin's diaries and surveys done at the beginning of the 19th Century, his writings do more to shed a light on the natives in GA at that time.



I have read some on Hawkins..he was a great man and Indian Agent and really their advocate for many years. Think of him when i cut thru Hawkinsville.


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## blackwater622

Most native americans east of the Mississippi River were labeled as mulatto or white on pre 1900 censuses. You can see some that were mulatto on one cencus and white on the next. Then they will be listed as indian after 1900. That was mostly caused due to the treatment of native americans back then.


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## redneck_billcollector

blackwater622 said:


> Most native americans east of the Mississippi River were labeled as mulatto or white on pre 1900 censuses. You can see some that were mulatto on one cencus and white on the next. Then they will be listed as indian after 1900. That was mostly caused due to the treatment of native americans back then.



After the removals, there were no natives legally east of the Mississippi.  If they were here, it was basically open season on them.  Prior to their removal, they were not counted because their lands were considered separate nations and not part of the US. The various indian agencies did censuses, Col Hawkins did kept count of everything in the Creek lands.  I posted a link in another thread to the Lamar Institute that has some of his writings on various Creek towns in West GA.


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## Texas Bill

The biggest change came with the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924. (At least on paper.)  Prior to that they were not viewed as citizens and there was no cause to include them in a census in general.  By the way, up until 1957 some states still refused Indians the right to vote.


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## NCHillbilly

redneck_billcollector said:


> After the removals, there were no natives legally east of the Mississippi.  If they were here, it was basically open season on them.  Prior to their removal, they were not counted because their lands were considered separate nations and not part of the US. The various indian agencies did censuses, Col Hawkins did kept count of everything in the Creek lands.  I posted a link in another thread to the Lamar Institute that has some of his writings on various Creek towns in West GA.



Yes, there were, actually. Over a thousand Cherokee who didn't participate in the Removal, with the help of Colonel Will Thomas, petitioned for and got permission to legally stay in western NC from the NC legislature and the Federal government in the mid 1830s. They gradually repurchased the land that is now included in the Qualla Boundary. 

The 69th NC Regiment, usually known as Thomas's Legion, was a Confederate unit that was mostly made up of Cherokee Indians. They were the last Confederate force to surrender in NC, and were involved in the Battle of Waynesville, which is generally considered to be the last battle of the Civil War east of the Mississippi. It took place over a month after Lee's surrender.


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## jcountry

Hoot said:


> My family tree stops at two Cherokee names on my father's side.  I haven't researched it further, through Cherokee records.  Both of his parent's ancestors (a great, and a great-great grandmother).  It is said that the family did not talk about that, back then.  It was like those interracial marriages were taboo - much like black/white relationships were really taboo at one time.
> 
> The way the natives were treated, and practically exterminated is one of the reasons I am not proud to be white or American.  This country has done some really, really despicable things.



Don't buy into that garbage in the second paragraph.

You didn't do it-and you should bear no guilt or remorse for what you didn't do.  

I don't have white guilt for anything.  No one can talk me into responsibility for some dead folk's misdeeds.


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## westcobbdog

jcountry said:


> Don't buy into that garbage in the second paragraph.
> 
> You didn't do it-and you should bear no guilt or remorse for what you didn't do.
> 
> I don't have white guilt for anything.  No one can talk me into responsibility for some dead folk's misdeeds.




No but to not acknowledge the Indians got screwed out of their land holdings is not reading and accepting history.


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## OneCrazyGeek

Some migrated into the "White" areas around the time of Trail of Tears, refused to be herded like sheep.

So when the Census takers came around, they said they were White out of fear.

How do I know this? My 3G Grandfather was Cherokee, found him on the Census.

Later on, his daughter applied to the Cherokee Nation and was turned down because they left the reservation.

The Cherokee were recruited to fight during the Civil War one group was called the Cherokee Avengers. They were recruited because they would fight. The Cherokee did it for money not for a cause.

My 3X Grandpa was captured and had a wounded hand. Sent to a hospital camp in Tenn then sent to as a Prisoner of War in Indy.


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## westcobbdog

OneCrazyGeek said:


> Some migrated into the "White" areas around the time of Trail of Tears, refused to be herded like sheep.
> 
> So when the Census takers came around, they said they were White out of fear.
> 
> How do I know this? My 3G Grandfather was Cherokee, found him on the Census.
> 
> Later on, his daughter applied to the Cherokee Nation and was turned down because they left the reservation.
> 
> The Cherokee were recruited to fight during the Civil War one group was called the Cherokee Avengers. They were recruited because they would fight. The Cherokee did it for money not for a cause.
> 
> My 3X Grandpa was captured and had a wounded hand. Sent to a hospital camp in Tenn then sent to as a Prisoner of War in Indy.



Cool info on your GGG Grandfather. Did he survive being underfed and under clothed up north as most of our boys were treated? 
I was reading some today in a "Backroads Georgia" Magazine latest edition about Cherokee Units that contributed in the war. Some Cherokee's developed into well drilled deadly artillery units. Some CSA Cherokee soldiers took Union scalps and wore them on their belts in battle.


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## OneCrazyGeek

westcobbdog said:


> Cool info on your GGG Grandfather. Did he survive being underfed and under clothed up north as most of our boys were treated?
> I was reading some today in a "Backroads Georgia" Magazine latest edition about Cherokee Units that contributed in the war. Some Cherokee's developed into well drilled deadly artillery units. Some CSA Cherokee soldiers took Union scalps and wore them on their belts in battle.



The story was when he was released from the POW camp in Indy, he and a nurse who worked there hiked back to Ga.

When he got back to Ga, he applied for benefits due to injury, he had either a part of a finger removed. He received $5 dollars.

The lady buried next to him, what is strange to me, I found his name in the Bartow Marriage license books, but it shows him married to another lady. My GGG grandma married to another dude.....not sure what is up with that.

Have not heard or read about the scalps. Did get one story of his unit was somewhere on the Mississippi river
they were starving because no food supplies were getting to them......they went to the river and harvested some catfish


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## elfiii

Hoot said:


> I was just saying that I am not proud of this country because of a few major factors in what made this country, such as slavery, genocide and the controlling factor of greed.



There's always Canada or Mexico. Both are right next door.


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## Hoot

elfiii said:


> There's always Canada or Mexico. Both are right next door.



That was almost clever.


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## Artfuldodger

Mixed races in the Florida panhandle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominickers

http://www.fl-genweb.org/how/holmes/dominickers.pdf


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## RUGERWARRIOR

Hoot said:


> I was just saying that I am not proud of this country because of a few major factors in what made this country, such as slavery, genocide and the controlling factor of greed.



You make this point as if it is just US history. 
It is a world history fact that most nations or kingdoms or civilizations were built on these things.


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## Artfuldodger

Look at it from the bright side. We lead many a poor native souls from eternal death to everlasting life.


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## Hoot

RUGERWARRIOR said:


> You make this point as if it is just US history.
> It is a world history fact that most nations or kingdoms or civilizations were built on these things.



True.  I guess I should be proud to be of this world.  

It's just that some (I mean quite a few) of the things this country has done, and what made this country, are things I most certainly are not proud of my ancestors doing.  It seems that when I bring up these points, some people (I'm not talking about you) bring up idiotic, butt-hurt remarks, like I insulted them personally (I did no such thing).  I was simply talking about the past.  Those same people seem to ignore the atrocities (there are quite a few of those) this country has done.  We are not the infallible, untarnished, untouchable good guys of this world.

And to the people that jump my case about not being proud of the things that built this country, I ask of them:  What does your bible say about pride?


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## NCHillbilly

Hoot said:


> True.  I guess I should be proud to be of this world.
> 
> It's just that some (I mean quite a few) of the things this country has done, and what made this country, are things I most certainly are not proud of my ancestors doing.  It seems that when I bring up these points, some people (I'm not talking about you) bring up idiotic, butt-hurt remarks, like I insulted them personally (I did no such thing).  I was simply talking about the past.  Those same people seem to ignore the atrocities (there are quite a few of those) this country has done.  We are not the infallible, untarnished, untouchable good guys of this world.
> 
> And to the people that jump my case about not being proud of the things that built this country, I ask of them:  What does your bible say about pride?



America is no different from the rest of the world in that regard, at all. Lots more countries kept up the slavery and genocide into the present time.  

I recognize and feel for the atrocities perpetrated on the American tribes by the Europeans, but they probably pale in comparison to the atrocities perpetrated on my Celtic ancestors by the Romans and my Saxon and Viking ancestors.  World history is a constant story of conquest, war, genocide, and subjugation. Conquest, genocide, and slavery were also commonly practiced by the same Native American tribes that we are talking about, just like the rest of the human race. Most of the African slaves brought to America would have lived out their lives as slaves in Africa had they not come here, also; as most African tribes also practiced slavery, conquest, and genocide.


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## Artfuldodger

I think we can look at it and learn from it but at the same time we don't have to be proud or guilty about what our ancestors did when it comes to conquest, genocide, and slavery.


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## elfiii

Hoot said:


> True.  I guess I should be proud to be of this world.
> 
> It's just that some (I mean quite a few) of the things this country has done, and what made this country, are things I most certainly are not proud of my ancestors doing.  It seems that when I bring up these points, some people (I'm not talking about you) bring up idiotic, butt-hurt remarks, like I insulted them personally (I did no such thing).  I was simply talking about the past.  Those same people seem to ignore the atrocities (there are quite a few of those) this country has done.  We are not the infallible, untarnished, untouchable good guys of this world.
> 
> And to the people that jump my case about not being proud of the things that built this country, I ask of them:  What does your bible say about pride?



Phooey. Since 1776 Americans have done a lot of things wrong. In that regard we are no different than any other nation in the history of mankind. The difference is America has risen above most of those things and today is head and shoulders above every other civilization in the history of man in spite of her many continuing faults and weaknesses and we have come farther faster than any other nation in history.

As far as 





Hoot said:


> It's just that some (I mean quite a few) of the things this country has done, and what made this country, are things I most certainly are not proud of my ancestors doing.



Double phooey on that. Evil things are not what "made this country".  What made this country is "We hold these truths to be self evident...." Actualizing that concept isn't a snap of the fingers. The Founders admitted that in the preamble to the Constitution - "in order to form a more perfect union...". We are, always have been and always will be a work in progress. So far we have made steady progress in the direction the founders laid out for us and it's a better direction than anybody else on the planet is steering.

Pity the poor Americans of the future that have your attitude about the past. They will have so much more to "atone" for. Now that would be truly idiotic butt hurt stuff.


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## Hoot

elfiii said:


> Phooey. Since 1776 Americans have done a lot of things wrong. In that regard we are no different than any other nation in the history of mankind. The difference is America has risen above most of those things and today is head and shoulders above every other civilization in the history of man in spite of her many continuing faults and weaknesses and we have come farther faster than any other nation in history.
> 
> As far as
> 
> Double phooey on that. Evil things are not what "made this country".  What made this country is "We hold these truths to be self evident...." Actualizing that concept isn't a snap of the fingers. The Founders admitted that in the preamble to the Constitution - "in order to form a more perfect union...". We are, always have been and always will be a work in progress. So far we have made steady progress in the direction the founders laid out for us and it's a better direction than anybody else on the planet is steering.
> 
> Pity the poor Americans of the future that have your attitude about the past. They will have so much more to "atone" for. Now that would be truly idiotic butt hurt stuff.



You make some good points, which are true.  But you seem to be ignoring some things.  Well, maybe you are one of us old flatulators that still believe some of the utter garbage and outright lies that was taught to us in our early school textbooks.  I do not do so.  If you are not aware, the victor always writes the history.

Am I proud of the good things this country has done?  Yes.

Am I proud of the atrocities?  No.

My net total on that:  Maybe 35-40% on the "proud" side.

Oh, and I am also aware of the atrocities that my other ancestors (Cherokee) made.  Those were quite horrible too.  They owned slaves.  They were ridiculously greedy.   And their demise (without a doubt) is that they became too "white".  Greed runs the world.  Always has.  Always will.  Period.  However, I am a little proud of them every time I learn about them killing someone who stole or tried to steal the land they lived on.  But that's just the Injun in me.  Then again, those "savages" didn't have a bible to guide them.  Trouble is, the honkeys did.


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## elfiii

Hoot said:


> But you seem to be ignoring some things.



No, I'm not ignoring anything. There are still bad things wrong with this country and there always will be. We're still better than everybody else on this planet put together back to the dawn of civilization. If the people keep their wits about them we will continue to move forward and refine that "more perfect union" we accede to.

I bear no shame for the past and I harbor no ill will against the people who came before me. Our history is what it is. I can't change it. All I can do is learn from it and strive to do my part to move us forward and yes I am proud to be an American. In spite of all our faults we're the best that's ever been. Like Babe Ruth said - "It ain't braggin' if ya' done it."


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## Hoot

elfiii said:


> No, I'm not ignoring anything. There are still bad things wrong with this country and there always will be. We're still better than everybody else on this planet put together back to the dawn of civilization. If the people keep their wits about them we will continue to move forward and refine that "more perfect union" we accede to.
> 
> I bear no shame for the past and I harbor no ill will against the people who came before me. Our history is what it is. I can't change it. All I can do is learn from it and strive to do my part to move us forward and yes I am proud to be an American. In spite of all our faults we're the best that's ever been. Like Babe Ruth said - "It ain't braggin' if ya' done it."



Good and valid points.  I might toss you a beer while you throw one at my head.  But I'm quick, would duck, and you would miss.


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## westcobbdog

Hoot said:


> Good and valid points.  I might toss you a beer while you throw one at my head.  But I'm quick, would duck, and you would miss.



From years of signing checks ELFii's arm has to be shot...really doubt he could land a head /beer shot at close distance..


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## Artfuldodger

Hoot said:


> those "savages" didn't have a bible to guide them.  Trouble is, the honkeys did.



That would make a good topic in the Religious forum!


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## karen936

I'm related to the parch band of eastern creeks.
I have the family tree that someone gave me.
Our family records burned in a Florida fire before we could
file when I was around 10 I think. I have a bunch of papers
but, I can't make heads or tails of it.  The person I am related to
was James B. Ward.


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## elfiii

westcobbdog said:


> From years of signing checks ELFii's arm has to be shot...really doubt he could land a head /beer shot at close distance..



Try me.


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## redneck_billcollector

NCHillbilly said:


> Yes, there were, actually. Over a thousand Cherokee who didn't participate in the Removal, with the help of Colonel Will Thomas, petitioned for and got permission to legally stay in western NC from the NC legislature and the Federal government in the mid 1830s. They gradually repurchased the land that is now included in the Qualla Boundary.
> 
> The 69th NC Regiment, usually known as Thomas's Legion, was a Confederate unit that was mostly made up of Cherokee Indians. They were the last Confederate force to surrender in NC, and were involved in the Battle of Waynesville, which is generally considered to be the last battle of the Civil War east of the Mississippi. It took place over a month after Lee's surrender.



There were around 800 who stayed and they had to renounce their tribal affiliation and assimilate those who did not were not legal. The State of N.C. did not recognize them until 1870 and gave them legal status that year as native americans.  The US government did not recognize them until the 20th century.  The land they lived on was purchased by a white man, an adopted son of a member of that band, by the name of Will Thomas who purchased the land because it was illegal to be an indian in NC and therefor anyone claiming to be one could not own land.  They had a very unique status because they were in violation of the removal act and basically had an "iffy" status until the issue arose during the War Between the States.  Due to their service to the State of NC during the war the legislation was passed in 1870.  In the 1830s the Cherokees sued twice and won, both cases went to the US Supreme Court, where they also won, against removal, but ol' Andy told the Court where they could stick it and proceeded with removal.  (All of this is from their own website.)  The Stay you mentioned was won in the US Supreme Court....and ignored by the Federal and State Governments.   The Stay prohibited the implementation of the removal act against all the Cherokees....President Jackson and Congress ignored it and proceeded to remove them all.  The eastern band actually resisted it with arms to some extent leading to their leader's execution eventually, his name was Tsali. This is all from other historic sources and not the Eastern Band's official site.


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## redneck_billcollector

Hoot said:


> True.  I guess I should be proud to be of this world.
> 
> It's just that some (I mean quite a few) of the things this country has done, and what made this country, are things I most certainly are not proud of my ancestors doing.  It seems that when I bring up these points, some people (I'm not talking about you) bring up idiotic, butt-hurt remarks, like I insulted them personally (I did no such thing).  I was simply talking about the past.  Those same people seem to ignore the atrocities (there are quite a few of those) this country has done.  We are not the infallible, untarnished, untouchable good guys of this world.
> 
> And to the people that jump my case about not being proud of the things that built this country, I ask of them:  What does your bible say about pride?



Interesting post, the atrocities and slavery you talk about were justified at the time by the bible.  The bible was utilized and was the number one justification for the exterpitation of the natives and taking their lands because they were "heathens" and this land was to be the new Eden for the protestant peoples who came here.  The bible was also used to justify slavery, with what became to be known in Judeo-Christian circles in the later 19th Century as the "White Man's Burden" to bring civilization and Christianity to all the non-white people.  I normally do not put religion in my discussions but I felt obliged here because you mention the very book which everyone used to justify what they were doing........
You need to go no further than to read the debates in Congress over both issues in the early 19th Century to see what I am talking about. The writings of Andrew Jackson also talk about this.  The same can be said with regards to the debates in the various state legislatures.


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