# In need of prayer?



## GAGE (Jun 24, 2011)

What do you all say,  and how do you feel towards those that ask for prayer?     You read it everyday on this and many other forums,   bad things happening in peoples lives, and those people asking for thoughts and prayers.     How do you handle it?



Thanks for your time.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 24, 2011)

GAGE said:


> What do you all say,  and how do you feel towards those that ask for prayer?     You read it everyday on this and many other forums,   bad things happening in peoples lives, and those people asking for thoughts and prayers.     How do you handle it?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your time.



The only thing that bothers me about prayer is the lack of conviction and backbone of the people who offer prayer for a miracle.  The bible is quite clear that miracles will be granted to a dedicated Christian who earnestly asks for a miracle and has faith that God will provide that miracle.  I NEVER see or hear anyone claim that miracle.  I suspect that it would be too humiliating to the person asking for the miracle if it were not granted.  Instead, people say that they prayed for comfort or they prayed for God's will to be done.  Those are cop-outs.  If someone believes that prayer has power, they should claim that power.


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## atlashunter (Jun 24, 2011)

What bothers me is when people replace action with prayer. Tornado comes and wipes out your neighbor I hope you're doing more than praying for them. I consider it akin to stroking the lucky rabbits foot. Maybe it makes you feel better and if your neighbor believes in your lucky rabbits foot maybe it will make them feel better if you stroke it for them. Aside from the emotional aspect its a complete waste of time. Instead of praying, get off your tail and actually do something to the extent that you can. For those things outside your control don't waste your time.


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## pnome (Jun 24, 2011)

GAGE said:


> What do you all say,  and how do you feel towards those that ask for prayer?     You read it everyday on this and many other forums,   bad things happening in peoples lives, and those people asking for thoughts and prayers.     How do you handle it?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your time.



It only bothers me that I lack an equivalent.

If you have otherwise no readily available means to help someone, praying for them and telling them that you are is beneficial.  I may believe that the prayer itself is futile, but as an expression of sympathy and solidarity, prayer is very effective.  _Psychologically_.

It's the thought that counts.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 24, 2011)

Here are my thoughts and I hope they don't come across as harsh as they seem to sound in my head.

Many people ask for prayers.  Many of them are not committed to, nor do they have a relationship with Christ.  They are simply throwing it out "in case it helps".  It's a catch all just in case God might be listening and cares.

The purpose for prayer is not to ask God to give us what we want.  It's main purpose (if you ask me and from what I can see in the Bible) is to align our will with the Father's.

"thy Kingdom come, thy will be done..."

It is a difficult thing to say "God, my wife is dieing of stage four cancer and we just lost our unborn child at 20 weeks because of it...and we elected not to do chemo to try to save the baby.  God, your will be done."

That's actually a situation that is playing out right now in the lives of two people I know.  They've been married for less than a year.  She is dieing and the baby was just stillborn a few days ago.

This couple is of steadfast faith.  They are 100% devastated.  But their prayer continues to be "thy will be done" and it is powerful.

I don't think there is a problem with telling God the desires of your heart.  He knows what they are.  Of COURSE this man wants his wife to be healed!  Of course he should tell God, "Father!  I desire that my wife be healed from this terrible disease!  You are the great physician.  IF IT BE YOUR WILL....heal her."

I think where many Christians miss it (myself included) is that we never bend our will to His.  We ask for healing, never considering that his will may be the contrary.  Why?  I don't pretend to know in all cases.  But I know that there are specific promises in the Bible that address the issue.  I won't get into those right now because they are not important to the question.

How do I handle it when someone asks for prayer?  I pray for them.  I intercede on their behalf to the Father.


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## atlashunter (Jun 24, 2011)

pnome said:


> It only bothers me that I lack an equivalent.
> 
> If you have otherwise no readily available means to help someone, praying for them and telling them that you are is beneficial.  I may believe that the prayer itself is futile, but as an expression of sympathy and solidarity, prayer is very effective.  _Psychologically_.
> 
> It's the thought that counts.



That's true. Harder than not having an equivalent to prayer is not having an equivalent to heaven. Someone loses a loved one it's very reassuring for them to be told their loved one is still alive in another realm and they will one day be reunited. I have no such consolation to offer others or myself in a time of loss. Since I lost my grandfather its been very tough thinking that he is gone forever and we'll never be together again. I do get a small bit of solace in considering the here and now and how incredibly lucky I am to get to live at all. Most potential people never get to exist so it seems we should all be grateful for that and make the most of it. Just being here means you won the greatest lottery of all.


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## pnome (Jun 24, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> That's true. Harder than not having an equivalent to prayer is not having an equivalent to heaven. Someone loses a loved one it's very reassuring for them to be told their loved one is still alive in another realm and they will one day be reunited. I have no such consolation to offer others or myself in a time of loss. Since I lost my grandfather its been very tough thinking that he is gone forever and we'll never be together again. I do get a small bit of solace in considering the here and now and how incredibly lucky I am to get to live at all. Most potential people never get to exist so it seems we should all be grateful for that and make the most of it. Just being here means you won the greatest lottery of all.



You ever read Slaughterhouse 5 by Kurt Vonnegut?  

Basically, we are, by virtue of our having existed at all, eternal in a sense.  Time is just another dimension.  A direction that we are currently traveling down.  If we could look at ourselves in that dimension, we would appear as a long string, with a beginning at conception and an end at death.  That string of what is us will forever be there at that position in space and time.  Because we have been means that we are always.  

I find that thought very comforting.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 24, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> The purpose for prayer is not to ask God to give us what we want.  It's main purpose (if you ask me and from what I can see in the Bible) is to align our will with the Father's.
> 
> "thy Kingdom come, thy will be done..."
> 
> I think where many Christians miss it (myself included) is that we never bend our will to His.  We ask for healing, never considering that his will may be the contrary.  Why?  I don't pretend to know in all cases.  But I know that there are specific promises in the Bible that address the issue.  I won't get into those right now because they are not important to the question.




Matthew 21:21-22
Then Jesus told them "I assure you, if you have faith and don't doubt, you can do things like this and much more. You can even say to this mountain, 'May God lift you up and throw you into the sea,' and it will happen. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Luke 17:6
"Even if you had faith as small as a mustard seed," the Lord answered, "you could say to this mulberry tree, 'May God uproot you and throw you into the sea,' and it would obey you!"

In these two examples, Jesus did not tell His disciples to include into their prayer "God's will be done".  Jesus did not indicate that it would happen IF it was God's will.  Jesus said it would happen if they prayed and believed.  Even when praying for something that appears to serve no Godly purpose, such as throwing a tree into the sea, God will grant the miracle if asked for with faith.  

Asking for God's will to be done is NOT asking for a miracle.  It is not asking for a change in the course of events.  It is asking for what was already going to happen, to go ahead and happen.


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## atlashunter (Jun 24, 2011)

Never heard of that one. Personally don't really find it comforting myself. I guess its kind of cool in an academic sense but fact remains I'll one day be no more. I don't really find the idea of eternal life that much better though. I'd love to be reunited with loved ones lost but anyone that wishes an eternity of anything hasn't given eternity much thought. The ideal for me would be to live until I've had enough. Don't think a normal human life time will approach that point for me but I've often wondered if you do get closer to that point when you get advanced in years.


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## atlashunter (Jun 24, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Asking for God's will to be done is NOT asking for a miracle.  It is not asking for a change in the course of events.  It is asking for what was already going to happen, to go ahead and happen.



It also betrays a lack of faith. You're essentially hedging your bets so that if you don't get what you asked for you can dismiss it as God's will and thereby have a way of saying you really did get the most important thing that you asked for.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 24, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> It also betrays a lack of faith. You're essentially hedging your bets so that if you don't get what you asked for you can dismiss it as God's will and thereby have a way of saying you really did get the most important thing that you asked for.



Exactly.  

When I was a little kid in an old country church, I remember going to a prayer meeting that was called for the sole purpose of praying for a church member who was critically ill.  I remember being extremely impressed with the prayer of one of our deacons who confidently "claimed" the miracle that Jesus had promised.  I was very impressed with the prayer UNTIL he ended the prayer with the old escape clause "thy will be done".  I couldn't understand why he would boldly "claim" a miracle and then say but if you don't really want to then that's okay.


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## stringmusic (Jun 24, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> That's true. Harder than not having an equivalent to prayer is not having an equivalent to heaven. Someone loses a loved one it's very reassuring for them to be told their loved one is still alive in another realm and they will one day be reunited. *I have no such consolation to offer others or myself in a time of loss.* Since I lost my grandfather its been very tough thinking that he is gone forever and we'll never be together again. I do get a small bit of solace in considering the here and now and how incredibly lucky I am to get to live at all. Most potential people never get to exist so it seems we should all be grateful for that and make the most of it. Just being here means you won the greatest lottery of all.



..... and there is one of the HUGE problems with atheism.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 24, 2011)

Problems? The way I see it it's a problem with all religions that believe in an afterlife that it's a made up comfort for people in a time of loss. If nothing is what really happens, it's not a problem, it's the way it is.


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## WTM45 (Jun 24, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> ..... and there is one of the HUGE problems with atheism.



So, any religious belief, even if unproven and imagined, and followed completely through faith is better than reality?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 24, 2011)

I went to a church, after I was less of a believer with my wife's aunt who was terminally ill with cancer. This was the type of church with people running around, speaking in tongues and where the pastor would hold people's heads and they'd fall over. Well her aunt was I guess you could say the guest of honor. I don't remember for sure, but I don't he ever mentioned god's will. He prayed over and over for the cancer to be gone. 

He got to me as I was standing with the family. I was a little nervous to begin with because I've never been in a church like that. He says some prayer for me, yelling of course, with his hand on my head. Then he gives me a little nudge... I felt no compelling reason to fall back in to the arms for the people behind me. I didn't want to be rude or disrespectful, but my legs were holding me up just fine. He tried two more times then moved on. 

My wife's aunt died a few weeks later. 



HawgJawl said:


> Exactly.
> 
> When I was a little kid in an old country church, I remember going to a prayer meeting that was called for the sole purpose of praying for a church member who was critically ill.  I remember being extremely impressed with the prayer of one of our deacons who confidently "claimed" the miracle that Jesus had promised.  I was very impressed with the prayer UNTIL he ended the prayer with the old escape clause "thy will be done".  I couldn't understand why he would boldly "claim" a miracle and then say but if you don't really want to then that's okay.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 24, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Matthew 21:21-22
> Then Jesus told them "I assure you, if you have faith and don't doubt, you can do things like this and much more. You can even say to this mountain, 'May God lift you up and throw you into the sea,' and it will happen. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
> 
> Luke 17:6
> ...



Q. 1. Who made you?
A. God.

Q. 2. What else did God make?
A. God made all things.

Q. 3. Why did God make you and all things ?
A. For his own glory.

My children learn these questions every day (that's the evil indoctrination part).

Take them into account when you think about what you ask for in light of the truth of the answers.

God made me and all things for his glory.


I understand that an unbeliever is attempting to tell me about the Bible, so I'm reading in that light.  But, are you under the impression that if I have faith and believe I could ask God to have a million dollars dropped on my desk immediately and he would be obligated to do so?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 24, 2011)

I've known several older people who were ready to go. Two believers, ready to go to heaven and get out of here. The other a non believer who was just ready for this to be over. I can imagine being old enough to be ready to get on with it.



atlashunter said:


> Never heard of that one. Personally don't really find it comforting myself. I guess its kind of cool in an academic sense but fact remains I'll one day be no more. I don't really find the idea of eternal life that much better though. I'd love to be reunited with loved ones lost but anyone that wishes an eternity of anything hasn't given eternity much thought. The ideal for me would be to live until I've had enough. Don't think a normal human life time will approach that point for me but I've often wondered if you do get closer to that point when you get advanced in years.


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## atlashunter (Jun 24, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> ..... and there is one of the HUGE problems with atheism.



It's also a problem that I don't have a gold mine in my back yard but deluding myself into thinking there is one doesn't change anything.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 24, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Q. 1. Who made you?
> A. God.
> 
> Q. 2. What else did God make?
> ...



Not necessarily, but at least, necessarily, you could uproot the tree and throw it in the ocean 

What I'm saying is, he gave specific examples that should lead you to say, yes, and become a millionaire.


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## stringmusic (Jun 24, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> So, any religious belief, even if unproven and imagined, and followed completely through faith is better than reality?



I do not agree with any premise to the questions. However, I only stated that atheism only offers one thing..... nothing.

Its all for another thread.


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## stringmusic (Jun 24, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> It's also a problem that I don't have a gold mine in my back yard but deluding myself into thinking there is one doesn't change anything.



Having money or gold in your back yard is much different in offering comfort and hope to the emotions displayed by every human being on the planet.


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## WTM45 (Jun 24, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> However, I only stated that atheism only offers one thing..... nothing.



That can be quite successfully argued.


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## stringmusic (Jun 24, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> That can be quite successfully argued.



Yes, I know that it can


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## WTM45 (Jun 24, 2011)

As an answer of my opinion to the OP, I feel it is OK for folks to believe as they wish.  To each their own.  I know comfort can be found in the very mention of someone taking enough time out of their day/night to think of another person.  If it involves prayer, fasting, fire, smoke, sacrifice or whatever, it's OK.

But I can state a hug, a handshake, a meal, a drink, financial support, a day of golf, babysitting children or any other act of real giving of ones self makes IMMEDIATE and positive results obvious.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 24, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Q. 1. Who made you?
> A. God.
> 
> Q. 2. What else did God make?
> ...



I wouldn't use the word obligated.  I would say that it is promised by Jesus.  

I hear many exceptions given by people for the granting of a miracle.

It must be God's will.
It must be for the glory of God.
It must be in God's plan.
It must be to further the kingdom of God.
It must be for the good of someone else, not yourself.

The problem I see is that Jesus didn't make those exceptions.  Man makes those exceptions to justify why their prayers for miracles do not or will not happen.


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## atlashunter (Jun 24, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Having money or gold in your back yard is much different in offering comfort and hope to the emotions displayed by every human being on the planet.



I don't take much comfort in false hopes. Nor do I find it ethical to comfort others with false hopes. But that's just me.


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## atlashunter (Jun 24, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> But, are you under the impression that if I have faith and believe I could ask God to have a million dollars dropped on my desk immediately and he would be obligated to do so?



Could Jesus do that? He said you would be able to perform the miracles he performed and more. How about going to Walter Reed Army Hospital and healing the soldiers missing limbs? Can faith heal them? Or is it God's will that anyone who loses an arm or a leg remain that way?


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## atlashunter (Jun 24, 2011)

Tell you what, if it were left up to God's will we would still be dealing with polio and smallpox.


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## WTM45 (Jun 24, 2011)

Here it comes.....

"God gave Salk and Jenner the ability to develop vaccines."


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## atlashunter (Jun 24, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> Here it comes.....
> 
> "God gave Salk and Jenner the ability to develop vaccines."



Yes and every time I hear that sort of talk I'm reminded of Thoughts of God by Mark Twain.



> For what are gilded as mercies are not in any recorded case more than mere common justices, and due - due without thanks or compliment. To rescue without personal risk a cripple from a burning house is not a mercy, it is a mere commonplace duty; anybody would do it that could. And not by proxy, either - delegating the work but confiscating the credit for it. If men neglected “God’s poor” and “God’s stricken and helpless ones” as He does, what would become of them? The answer is to be found in those dark lands where man follows His example and turns his indifferent back upon them: they get no help at all; they cry, and plead and pray in vain, they linger and suffer, and miserably die. If you will look at the matter rationally and without prejudice, the proper place to hunt for the facts of His mercy, is not where man does the mercies and He collects the praise, but in those regions where He has the field to Himself.


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## WTM45 (Jun 24, 2011)

Bravo!


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## Huntinfool (Jun 24, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Tell you what, if it were left up to God's will we would still be dealing with polio and smallpox.



So you spoke with God and he confirmed that for you?  


Turnabout is fair play, correct?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 24, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Could Jesus do that? He said you would be able to perform the miracles he performed and more. How about going to Walter Reed Army Hospital and healing the soldiers missing limbs? Can faith heal them? Or is it God's will that anyone who loses an arm or a leg remain that way?



Could Jesus do that?  Yes...of course he could.  Can faith heal them?  Yes...of course it can (well, no faith can't....but God can because of faith and belief).


BUT...


	[6]...“If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written,
 	“‘He will command his angels concerning you,’
 	and
 	“‘On their hands they will bear you up,
		lest you strike your foot against a stone.’”
 	[7] Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
(Matthew 4:6-7 ESV)


The "for it is written" is key to this passage (from both Satan and Christ).  Satan took the "it is written" and twisted it, took it out of context and tried to tempt Christ with it.

You are doing the very same thing.  I ask that you read Jesus' response and consider whether we should ask God for things outside of his will.


The question to ask in the passages quoted above about mustard seeds and mountains is this.  If it actually happened, would you (or the asker) be surprised?  If so, then there was no belief.  There was faith because you wouldn't have asked otherwise.  Both are required in those passages and I would dare say...I would be surprised to see a mountain uproot and move when I prayed.

Sanctification is a life-long process.  God forgive my unbelief.


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## atlashunter (Jun 24, 2011)

Given that there isn't anyone on the planet with enough faith to make the mountain uproot and go into the sea or the soldiers arms and legs to regenerate, I'm inclined to go with the simpler explanation that faith has nothing to do with it.

I'm surprised you didn't go with the metaphorical mountain explanation.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 24, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> The question to ask in the passages quoted above about mustard seeds and mountains is this.  If it actually happened, would you (or the asker) be surprised?  If so, then there was no belief.  There was faith because you wouldn't have asked otherwise.  Both are required in those passages and I would dare say...I would be surprised to see a mountain uproot and move when I prayed.
> 
> Sanctification is a life-long process.  God forgive my unbelief.



Is there no one on earth with enough belief to get a mountain moved through prayer?  Imagine the effect of such a miracle.  Imagine how many lost souls would be led to Christ.  Imagine the motivation this would provide to unite the various religions in one direction.  Is there no one up to the challenge?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 24, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I do not agree with any premise to the questions. However, I only stated that atheism only offers one thing..... nothing.
> 
> Its all for another thread.



I guess it is another thread, but if nothing is there, why offer something?


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## stringmusic (Jun 24, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Is there no one on earth with enough belief to get a mountain moved through prayer?  Imagine the effect of such a miracle.  Imagine how many lost souls would be led to Christ.  Imagine the motivation this would provide to unite the various religions in one direction.  Is there no one up to the challenge?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 24, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I'm surprised you didn't go with the metaphorical mountain explanation.



Too easy and I knew you'd be looking for it. 


However...."move a mountain" was just as common an expression then as it is now.  It meant "to do things that seem impossible".

BUT....you will never hear me say that God cannot literally uproot a mountain and move it.  He created it.  He can put it anywhere he wants I suppose.


Ignoring the passage I posted about the temptation of Christ?  Won't somebody address it?  I was pretty proud of it.  I gotta be honest.


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## WTM45 (Jun 24, 2011)

I guess flooding a mountain "moves" it.  So to speak.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 24, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> However...."move a mountain" was just as common an expression then as it is now.  It meant "to do things that seem impossible".



How about uproot a mulberry tree and throw it into the sea.  Was that a "common expression" that means something else?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 24, 2011)

Nope....I was just addressing why I didn't go the metaphorical route.  I backed that up with my next statement.

If he wants to move it, he certainly is powerful enough to do so.



Let me ask you this.  You guys haven't questioned what the apostles did in any way...as if it's no big deal.  Have you read Acts?

They were making the blind see and the lame walk and the sick feel better.  Good grief.  Don't you think that, if Jesus had the authority to grant them that ability....he could move a mountain or uproot a tree?

I mean, if we're going to question....then let's get it on!  They healed people and they were fully human.  If I am a believer and I believe that, why would you expect me to doubt whether they could tell a tree to uproot?

Bushes burning, donkeys talking, people raising from the dead.  Oh my!


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## HawgJawl (Jun 24, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Nope....I was just addressing why I didn't go the metaphorical route.  I backed that up with my next statement.
> 
> If he wants to move it, he certainly is powerful enough to do so.
> 
> ...



Jesus told the disciples that if they had faith the size of a mustard seed, they could do miracles.  It seems that the level of faith and belief in Christ that is expected of His followers begins at the lowest level (mustard seed) with the ability to perform miracles.  His disciples were able to perform some miracles.

Let me ask you this.  If a follower of Jesus is not able to perform even a tiny miracle in His name, why should they believe that they have enough faith in Jesus to get to heaven?


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## bullethead (Jun 24, 2011)

The reasons we do not question what the apostles did is because we question the source from which they come from. If we do not believe what the bible has to say in 66 or 72 books, why would we think that what the apostles "did" was any more believable?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 24, 2011)

Remember.....faith AND belief are required (and I still say a will in line with God's).

I think you are operating under the assumption (false one) that believers never experience miracles when they pray.  Why not every time?  I do not know.  Not sure that "every time" is promised (i.e. my million dollars example).

I've shared my story about my brother's cancer in the recent past.  I (and others) prayed and the cancer disappeared unexplainably ON the operating table.  You dismissed that as an unexplained medical event.

There are many other stories out there of things that are not so medical.  But, I'm sad to say, you'll dismiss those as well.

You cannot have it both ways my friend.  Either you're willing to accept that miracles can and do happen through the sincere pray of a believer or you are not.  But you cannot have the luxury of demanding me to show you examples and then dismiss them and say "prove God did it".

Follow that logic and Lazerus was not really dead.  Maybe he had just passed out or was in a coma and so it just LOOKED like Jesus raised him from the dead.

You ask for examples and then dismiss them out of hand.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 24, 2011)

bullethead said:


> The reasons we do not question what the apostles did is because we question the source from which they come from. If we do not believe what the bible has to say in 66 or 72 books, why would we think that what the apostles "did" was any more believable?



Then why are you asking me about what Jesus said we could do in the very same book?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 24, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Is there no one on earth with enough belief to get a mountain moved through prayer?  Imagine the effect of such a miracle.  Imagine how many lost souls would be led to Christ.  Imagine the motivation this would provide to unite the various religions in one direction.  Is there no one up to the challenge?



David Copperfield?


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## bullethead (Jun 24, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Remember.....faith AND belief are required (and I still say a will in line with God's).
> 
> I think you are operating under the assumption (false one) that believers never experience miracles when they pray.  Why not every time?  I do not know.  Not sure that "every time" is promised (i.e. my million dollars example).
> 
> ...



Where are the "rules " for miracles?

I believe in miracles, but not in the sense that they are divine. Crazy unexplainable things happen all the time....annnnnnnnd? What happens when a perfectly healthy being, with no family history of cancer, suddenly gets a super rare cancer? Is that a miracle that he beat all the odds of avoiding cancer? Did god throw him a miracle? Or are only good things miracles?


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## HawgJawl (Jun 24, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Remember.....faith AND belief are required (and I still say a will in line with God's).
> 
> I think you are operating under the assumption (false one) that believers never experience miracles when they pray.  Why not every time?  I do not know.  Not sure that "every time" is promised (i.e. my million dollars example).
> 
> ...



The miracles performed by Jesus and the disciples were extraordinary, immediate, and unparalleled.  There was no question in the minds of the witnesses that they were authentic miracles and where exactly they came from.  During that time period, it didn't seem to be important to leave a little mystery surrounding the miracle in order to test people's faith.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 24, 2011)

During that time (and in the places they were performed) they all believed that God existed....not hard to convince them who it came from, now was it?


BTW.....my brother's healing was pretty extraordinary and there was no doubt in my mind, nor my family's, nor the doctor's (for that matter) who was responsible for it.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 24, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> During that time (and in the places they were performed) they all believed that God existed....not hard to convince them who it came from, now was it?



Not so.  Most of the miracles perfomed by the disciples were for the purpose of leading people to Christianity, saving souls, and starting churches.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 24, 2011)

We disagree on the purpose.  But that's a different issue.

Jews?  Not so hard to convince.  Gentiles?  perhaps.

In the absence of medicine, miracles are more dramatic.  Agree?

If there is no chemotherapy, it's easier to say "well, God must have done that"...don't you think?


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## HawgJawl (Jun 24, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> We disagree on the purpose.  But that's a different issue.
> 
> Jews?  Not so hard to convince.  Gentiles?  perhaps.
> 
> ...



The purpose is what really matters.  If the purpose of a miracle is to prove that God did something miraculous, then the act must be miraculous.  With advances in modern medicine, the miracles need to be even more miraculous to prove that God did something miraculous.

If performing miracles is not helpful in spreading Christianity, then why did Jesus do it?  Why did the disciples do it?  Why did God empower the disciples to do it?  Whatever that reason is, when and why did it stop?


----------



## bullethead (Jun 24, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Then why are you asking me about what Jesus said we could do in the very same book?



It is the only way to hold a conversation with some people. Most things in the book exist no where else but in the book. We have to step into that world from time to time because in the real world believers cannot replicate the events that occur inside the book.

We can talk apostles, We can talk X-Men too, but you have to realize I hold both in the same fictional category.


----------



## Huntinfool (Jun 24, 2011)

> the miracles need to be even more miraculous



You do realize the lunacy of that statement, right?  You sayin' God's gotta step his game up a bit?




> Whatever that reason is, when and why did it stop?



Did you read my previous posts?  It has not stopped.  You simply don't acknowledge it.


----------



## bullethead (Jun 24, 2011)

It has as much lunacy as believing in gods.


----------



## Huntinfool (Jun 24, 2011)

bullethead said:


> It is the only way to hold a conversation with some people. Most things in the book exist no where else but in the book. We have to step into that world from time to time because in the real world believers cannot replicate the events that occur inside the book.
> 
> We can apostles, We can talk X-Men too, but you have to realize I hold both in the same fictional category.



Yes, but you can't ask me a question about one thing in the Bible that you imply IS possible and then say that something in there that is of the VERY SAME NATURE is not.

Is it possible for pray to move mountains and it's not possible that Jesus raised the dead?

You said the reason you're not asking about what the apostles did is because you don't believe what's in the Bible....so why are you asking me, then, about what Jesus did?  You see the contradiction?


----------



## stringmusic (Jun 24, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> The purpose is what really matters.  If the purpose of a miracle is to prove that God did something miraculous, then the act must be miraculous.  With advances in modern medicine, the miracles need to be even more miraculous to prove that God did something miraculous.
> 
> If performing miracles is not helpful in spreading Christianity, then why did Jesus do it?  Why did the disciples do it?  Why did God empower the disciples to do it?  Whatever that reason is, when and *why did it stop*?



I'm with Huntinfool on this one, the second a Christian sites God as the miracle performer in a particular situation, the situation is explained away for natural cause, or whatever else someone wants to conjure up.

Like I stated in the other thread, if you(or anyone else) do not already believe, a miracle(as much as you might claim) is not going to change your mind.


----------



## HawgJawl (Jun 24, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I'm with Huntinfool on this one, the second a Christian sites God as the miracle performer in a particular situation, the situation is explained away for natural cause, or whatever else someone wants to conjure up.
> 
> Like I stated in the other thread, if you(or anyone else) do not already believe, a miracle(as much as you might claim) is not going to change your mind.



The question is not "why does God not perform miracles anymore".  The question is "why can't you perform miracles, as a messenger of Christ".  When and why did THAT stop?


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## stringmusic (Jun 24, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> The question is not "why does God not perform miracles anymore".  The question is "why can't you perform miracles, as a messenger of Christ".  When and why did THAT stop?



I couldn't tell'ya?


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## bullethead (Jun 24, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Yes, but you can't ask me a question about one thing in the Bible that you imply IS possible and then say that something in there that is of the VERY SAME NATURE is not.
> 
> Is it possible for pray to move mountains and it's not possible that Jesus raised the dead?
> 
> You said the reason you're not asking about what the apostles did is because you don't believe what's in the Bible....so why are you asking me, then, about what Jesus did?  You see the contradiction?



Did I ask what Jesus did/can do? You, out of the blue, brought up the apostles.
"Let me ask you this. You guys haven't questioned what the apostles did in any way...as if it's no big deal. Have you read Acts?"

I asked where are the rules for miracles.


----------



## Huntinfool (Jun 24, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> The question is not "why does God not perform miracles anymore".  The question is "why can't you perform miracles, as a messenger of Christ".  When and why did THAT stop?



Let me be clear, a human had NEVER performed a miracle.  

Let me be clearer....he has not stopped using humans as the delivery mechanism for miracles.

Am I typing in clear ink when I discuss my brother so that no one can see it?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 24, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I asked where are the rules for miracles.



Hawgjawl gave you a few of the rules.



> With advances in modern medicine, the miracles need to be even more miraculous to prove that God did something miraculous.



So, in order for a miracle to be miraculous, they have to be more miraculous as science advances.

Jesus gave you a few more.  Believe and have faith is one of them.

I think the rest are in chapter nine of "Elements of Style".  I'll have to go look them up.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 24, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> The question is not "why does God not perform miracles anymore".  The question is "why can't you perform miracles, as a messenger of Christ".  When and why did THAT stop?



Matthew 7:22-23
On judgment day many will tell me, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name'. But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Go away; the things you did were unauthorized."

There will be followers of Jesus who have enough faith and belief to prophesy, cast out demons, and perform miracles, but still will not have enough faith and belief to go to heaven.  Jesus said that faith the size of a mustard seed is all that is required to perform miracles.  

So, again I ask, if you as a follower of Jesus cannot perform miracles, why do you believe that you have enough faith to make it to heaven?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 24, 2011)

The things you did were unauthorized....

So we see that authorization is necessary (another rule I suppose).

If God did not authorize them, who do you suppose did?

I'll post this as a quote...maybe somebody will see it this time.



> Am I typing in clear ink when I discuss my brother so that no one can see it?



Miracles continue to happen to this day.  You don't have to acknowledge them to make them real.  The jews believed in God, believed in a Messiah, watched Jesus perform miracles and STILL crucified him.

Why in the world would I expect you to acknowledge a miracle when you see one?  You don't even believe the one who performs them exists!

You guys are having a rough day today...


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## HawgJawl (Jun 24, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> The things you did were unauthorized....
> 
> So we see that authorization is necessary (another rule I suppose).
> 
> ...



You keep changing this from followers of Jesus being able to perform miracles to God perfoming miracles.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 24, 2011)

Read my posts!

God performs all miracles.  There is no one else by whom that power is derived.  He may choose to use a follower as the mechanism by which to deliver that power.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 24, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Matthew 21:21-22
> Then Jesus told them "I assure you, if you have faith and don't doubt, you can do things like this and much more. You can even say to this mountain, 'May God lift you up and throw you into the sea,' and it will happen. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
> 
> Luke 17:6
> "Even if you had faith as small as a mustard seed," the Lord answered, "you could say to this mulberry tree, 'May God uproot you and throw you into the sea,' and it would obey you!"



However you choose to read those two verses, why can't you do that?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 24, 2011)

I can.


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## gtparts (Jun 24, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> The only thing that bothers me about prayer is the lack of conviction and backbone of the people who offer prayer for a miracle.  The bible is quite clear that miracles will be granted to a dedicated Christian who earnestly asks for a miracle and has faith that God will provide that miracle.  I NEVER see or hear anyone claim that miracle.  I suspect that it would be too humiliating to the person asking for the miracle if it were not granted.  Instead, people say that they prayed for comfort or they prayed for God's will to be done.  Those are cop-outs.  If someone believes that prayer has power, they should claim that power.



Interesting comment. I've seen miracles, asked for and received them myself. I've also asked and not received. 

I'd rather have God's will be the deciding factor than my will every time. I always seem to have less than the whole picture, while He always has the whole picture. There is incredible power in prayer, but it is His power in my prayer, not my power. Claiming God's promises is one thing and you best know what you're doing when you do. Claiming His power is quite a different matter.

One of the disappointments expressed by a few atheists on here is how God didn't keep His promises, but when you finally get to the story, you find that the promise was conditional and the conditions were not met by the people or that the petition that was made was one that was ultimately contrary to God's purpose. 

God answers all His children's prayers, but not always the way we want or in our time frame.


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## gtparts (Jun 24, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> The purpose is what really matters.  If the purpose of a miracle is to prove that God did something miraculous, then the act must be miraculous.  With advances in modern medicine, the miracles need to be even more miraculous to prove that God did something miraculous.
> 
> If performing miracles is not helpful in spreading Christianity, then why did Jesus do it?  Why did the disciples do it?  Why did God empower the disciples to do it?  Whatever that reason is, when and why did it stop?


For some reason your ability to be awed by God working, even in the mundane things of life, has been jaded. Miracles were done to glorify God and convince the people of that day of who Christ was. God is still in the miracle business.... He just does them without "blowing His own horn". Praising and glorifying Him is the proper response of His children. 

If raising the dead doesn't say and do what you need to believe,...well, God says you'll never "get it", so what's the point of continually putting on a show for those who will not believe?


----------



## bullethead (Jun 24, 2011)

God didn't raise anyone outside of that little section of the world trapped within the bible. It is obvious that the only followers he wanted were the Jewish people.


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## bullethead (Jun 24, 2011)

God says.." if your not one of the chosen, I don't want you."


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## atlashunter (Jun 24, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I'm with Huntinfool on this one, the second a Christian sites God as the miracle performer in a particular situation, the situation is explained away for natural cause, or whatever else someone wants to conjure up.
> 
> Like I stated in the other thread, if you(or anyone else) do not already believe, a miracle(as much as you might claim) is not going to change your mind.



Right because other explanations are by definition more plausible than the miracle explanation. It would help if it were something verifiable with no other possible explanation. Concerning huntinfool's brother, I'm not personally familiar with all of the details of the story so yeah I'm skeptical. Maybe he was misdiagnosed twice. Improbable? Yes but far more probable than the God explanation. Just take the odds of a single misdiagnosis, probably not that uncommon, and square it. Improbable events happen all the time. Miracles don't. The problem with all these miracle stories of cancer healings is they are hard to verify. And besides, is it completely unheard of for someone (a non-believer for argument sake) to naturally recover from cancer? I bet if you look for those stories you'll find them floating around. If it happens on it's own without any prayer then it's not miraculous when you happen to pray. Now an amputated limb... pretty hard to misdiagnose that one and it's pretty darn easy to verify. People don't naturally regenerate cut off limbs. This is a very good candidate for a miracle event. Never happens even though the bible claims Jesus did it. Now why is that? If miracles really happened and are still happening why aren't they happening for amputees?

Matthew 18 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

He doesn't say it might be done. He doesn't say unless they are amputees. He says it SHALL be done.

It's been said a million times but I'll say it again. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The evidence supporting the extraordinary claims of the bible is nil.


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## atlashunter (Jun 24, 2011)

gtparts said:


> For some reason your ability to be awed by God working, even in the mundane things of life, has been jaded. Miracles were done to glorify God and convince the people of that day of who Christ was. God is still in the miracle business.... He just does them without "blowing His own horn". Praising and glorifying Him is the proper response of His children.
> 
> If raising the dead doesn't say and do what you need to believe,...well, God says you'll never "get it", so what's the point of continually putting on a show for those who will not believe?



So he just does them in ways that can't be seen as miracles that would convince people out of modesty?

You folks sure love to stack the deck.


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## atlashunter (Jun 24, 2011)

gtparts said:


> God answers all His children's prayers, but not always the way we want or in our time frame.





Yes, no, and WAIT...


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## atlashunter (Jun 24, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Too easy and I knew you'd be looking for it.
> 
> 
> However...."move a mountain" was just as common an expression then as it is now.  It meant "to do things that seem impossible".
> ...



I'll address it. I ignored it because I didn't think it really worth responding to. It's an apples and oranges comparison. Jesus in that passage is referring to Deuteronomy 6:16. Here is the context of that verse.

Deuteronomy 6
13 Fear the LORD your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name. 14 Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you; 15 for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land. 16 Do not put the LORD your God to the test as you did at Massah. 17 Be sure to keep the commands of the LORD your God and the stipulations and decrees he has given you. 

It's not talking about prayer. It's talking about testing God's anger. Jesus instructed his followers to pray and perform miracles. And he says those prayer requests will be granted as we've already shown from various verses. I don't know how you draw a parallel between praying and testing God's anger.


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## CAL (Jun 24, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I went to a church, after I was less of a believer with my wife's aunt who was terminally ill with cancer. This was the type of church with people running around, speaking in tongues and where the pastor would hold people's heads and they'd fall over. Well her aunt was I guess you could say the guest of honor. I don't remember for sure, but I don't he ever mentioned god's will. He prayed over and over for the cancer to be gone.
> 
> He got to me as I was standing with the family. I was a little nervous to begin with because I've never been in a church like that. He says some prayer for me, yelling of course, with his hand on my head. Then he gives me a little nudge... I felt no compelling reason to fall back in to the arms for the people behind me. I didn't want to be rude or disrespectful, but my legs were holding me up just fine. He tried two more times then moved on.
> 
> My wife's aunt died a few weeks later.



Many years ago when I was just a small boy there was a lady in our church who had more Christain belief in her little finger than most will ever know.Story was she had breast cancer.I was small but went to school with her daughter.The lady said she wasn't the least bit worried since the Lord would handle her sickness and she never went to a Dr.either.Well the lady died eventually,but not from breast cancer.She died from old age in her 90's.I don't even remember folks praying for her either.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 24, 2011)

How about a little different spin on this, something I think about from time to time. Do you think God would withold healing someone because I had not prayed for them as I should have??? In regard to the OP, I have no reasonable response because I see that the nonbelievers evidence is overwhelming. Yet, I find great comfort in my belief that "God is with me"


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 24, 2011)

I went through a hard time period of a year of taking a chemo drug. Many said they were praying. I was interestingly surprised that a nonbelieving, rebel type, hardcore drinking friend of a friend approached me privately and asked if I needed any help with my bills. Assuming it was hard to pay the medical bills from lost pay, he offered to help. Now that was interesting because neither the church of which I poured myself into or my parents had even made mention of it. I will never forget that offer.


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## WTM45 (Jun 25, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I went through a hard time period of a year of taking a chemo drug. Many said they were praying. I was interestingly surprised that a nonbelieving, rebel type, hardcore drinking friend of a friend approached me privately and asked if I needed any help with my bills. Assuming it was hard to pay the medical bills from lost pay, he offered to help. Now that was interesting because neither the church of which I poured myself into or my parents had even made mention of it. I will never forget that offer.



Give me ten men like that, and I'll fight any war on this planet.

I don't care to who or how loudly one wishes to pray to their deity.  Sooner or later, the boots get laced up and the rifles get loaded and slung at port arms.
Some talk about making things happen.  Others simply get about the task.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I'll address it. I ignored it because I didn't think it really worth responding to. It's an apples and oranges comparison. Jesus in that passage is referring to Deuteronomy 6:16. Here is the context of that verse.
> 
> Deuteronomy 6
> 13 Fear the LORD your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name. 14 Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you; 15 for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land. 16 Do not put the LORD your God to the test as you did at Massah. 17 Be sure to keep the commands of the LORD your God and the stipulations and decrees he has given you.
> ...



That's an interesting one.  I'll just have to let you have that one.  

What emotion do you think testing God in any way is likely to illicit if he tells you specifically not to do so?


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## HawgJawl (Jun 27, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I can.



Why is it that you choose not to do it then?


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## stringmusic (Jun 27, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Why is it that you choose not to do it then?



Not directed at me, but I would answer the question by " it's not my choice"


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## HawgJawl (Jun 27, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Interesting comment. I've seen miracles, asked for and received them myself. I've also asked and not received.
> 
> I'd rather have God's will be the deciding factor than my will every time. I always seem to have less than the whole picture, while He always has the whole picture. There is incredible power in prayer, but it is His power in my prayer, not my power. Claiming God's promises is one thing and you best know what you're doing when you do. Claiming His power is quite a different matter.
> 
> ...



Praying for God's will to be done is like praying for the final score of a ball game to be whatever it is going to be with or without the prayer.  Don't pray for a specific score, just pray that it will end up being what it was going to be anyway.  You could name a specific score that you would like to see, but always follow it up with the escape clause of whatever the score ends up being will be fine.  The trick then becomes trying to predict the future.  If you're good at guessing the future, you can pray for that to occur and if it does, then it must have been an anwered prayer.  If it doesn't occur, then it was still an answered prayer, just not the answer you were looking for.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 27, 2011)

gtparts said:


> For some reason your ability to be awed by God working, even in the mundane things of life, has been jaded. Miracles were done to glorify God and convince the people of that day of who Christ was. God is still in the miracle business.... He just does them without "blowing His own horn". Praising and glorifying Him is the proper response of His children.
> 
> If raising the dead doesn't say and do what you need to believe,...well, God says you'll never "get it", so what's the point of continually putting on a show for those who will not believe?



You gave your opinion of why God no longer empowers His followers to go forth casting out demons, healing people, and performing miracles in His name.  But that is only your opinion.  Show me in scripture where God said that this course of action is no longer endorsed.


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## stringmusic (Jun 27, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Praying for God's will to be done is like praying for the final score of a ball game to be whatever it is going to be with or without the prayer.  Don't pray for a specific score, just pray that it will end up being what it was going to be anyway.  You could name a specific score that you would like to see, but always follow it up with the escape clause of whatever the score ends up being will be fine.  The trick then becomes trying to predict the future.  If you're good at guessing the future, you can pray for that to occur and if it does, then it must have been an anwered prayer.  If it doesn't occur, then it was still an answered prayer, just not the answer you were looking for.



Do you pray HJ?


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## HawgJawl (Jun 27, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Matthew 7:22-23
> On judgment day many will tell me, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name'. But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Go away; the things you did were unauthorized."
> 
> There will be followers of Jesus who have enough faith and belief to prophesy, cast out demons, and perform miracles, but still will not have enough faith and belief to go to heaven.  Jesus said that faith the size of a mustard seed is all that is required to perform miracles.
> ...





stringmusic said:


> Not directed at me, but I would answer the question by " it's not my choice"



Whose choice is it then?  According to the scripture above, authorization from Jesus is not required in order to perform miracles.


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## stringmusic (Jun 27, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Whose choice is it then?  According to the scripture above, authorization from Jesus is not required in order to perform miracles.



Did they really do what they thought they were doing?


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## bullethead (Jun 27, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Praying for God's will to be done is like praying for the final score of a ball game to be whatever it is going to be with or without the prayer.  Don't pray for a specific score, just pray that it will end up being what it was going to be anyway.  You could name a specific score that you would like to see, but always follow it up with the escape clause of whatever the score ends up being will be fine.  The trick then becomes trying to predict the future.  If you're good at guessing the future, you can pray for that to occur and if it does, then it must have been an anwered prayer.  If it doesn't occur, then it was still an answered prayer, just not the answer you were looking for.



The problem is that at a Ball-Game, there 50,000 people all praying for the same thing, yet half are for one team and half are for the other team. Only 1/2 the prayers get answered.


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## bullethead (Jun 27, 2011)

I'll be back on in a bit, I have to go get my Suburban inspected. Please, with me, pray that it passes inspection.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 27, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Did they really do what they thought they were doing?



I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying.  Could you explain?


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## stringmusic (Jun 27, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Matthew 7:22-23
> On judgment day many will tell me, 'Lord, Lord, *we prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name'. But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Go away; the things you did were unauthorized."*There will be followers of Jesus who have enough faith and belief to prophesy, cast out demons, and perform miracles, but still will not have enough faith and belief to go to heaven.  Jesus said that faith the size of a mustard seed is all that is required to perform miracles.
> 
> So, again I ask, if you as a follower of Jesus cannot perform miracles, why do you believe that you have enough faith to make it to heaven?





HawgJawl said:


> I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying.  Could you explain?



Did they really do those things, or did they just think they did them?


----------



## HawgJawl (Jun 27, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Did they really do those things, or did they just think they did them?



"the things you did were unauthorized"

If they did not in fact prophesy, cast out demons, and perform miracles in Jesus' name, the expected response would be "No you didn't".  Instead Jesus says that the things that they did were not authorized.  They performed miracles in the name of Jesus, but He did not grant them the authority, did not give them permission, or did not sanction the miracles.  They were still able to perform the miracles in Jesus' name, but they just don't get any credit for it.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 27, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Why is it that you choose not to do it then?



[6]...“If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written,
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,’
and
“‘On their hands they will bear you up,
lest you strike your foot against a stone.’”
[7] Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
(Matthew 4:6-7 ESV)


----------



## HawgJawl (Jun 27, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> How about a little different spin on this, something I think about from time to time. Do you think God would withold healing someone because I had not prayed for them as I should have??? In regard to the OP, I have no reasonable response because I see that the nonbelievers evidence is overwhelming. Yet, I find great comfort in my belief that "God is with me"



If you incorporate "God's will be done", then it doesn't matter whether you pray or not.  The outcome will be the same either way.  God's will is going to be done whether you pray for God's will to be done or not.  So there is no reason to believe that failing to pray will effect the outcome, but conversely, there is no reason to believe that praying will effect the outcome either.


----------



## HawgJawl (Jun 27, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> [6]...“If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written,
> “‘He will command his angels concerning you,’
> and
> “‘On their hands they will bear you up,
> ...



1 Kings chapter 18 tells of a "contest" between Elijah and the prophets of Baal.  This contest was for God to prove that He is the one true God.  God performed miracles such as this numerous times throughout the bible.  You can invent as many reasons as you wish to explain why God might not want to perform this type of miracle, but the fact remains that the bible says He did it numerous times.  The question remains; Why did God stop performing the type of miracle detailed in this contest?


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## bullethead (Jun 27, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I'll be back on in a bit, I have to go get my Suburban inspected. Please, with me, pray that it passes inspection.



Thank you all for the help. No problems.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 27, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> 1 Kings chapter 18 tells of a "contest" between Elijah and the prophets of Baal.  This contest was for God to prove that He is the one true God.  God performed miracles such as this numerous times throughout the bible.  You can invent as many reasons as you wish to explain why God might not want to perform this type of miracle, but the fact remains that the bible says He did it numerous times.  The question remains; Why did God stop performing the type of miracle detailed in this contest?




Verse 1 of that chapter reads...

_[Elijah Confronts Ahab]
	[18:1] After many days the word of the LORD came to Elijah, in the third year, saying, “Go, show yourself to Ahab, and I will send rain upon the earth.”
(1 Kings 18:1 ESV)_

God sent Elijah to Ahab for a specific purpose.  

He has not told me to confront HawgJawl and tell him that a mountain is about to be moved.  Were he to speak to me and tell me that, I'm certain that the ground would start rumbling my friend.

But...again, you are operating under the assumption that God is not still in the business of performing miracles.  You are incorrect in that assumption.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 27, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Verse 1 of that chapter reads...
> 
> _[Elijah Confronts Ahab]
> [18:1] After many days the word of the LORD came to Elijah, in the third year, saying, “Go, show yourself to Ahab, and I will send rain upon the earth.”
> ...



The specific purpose was to "Go and present yourself to King Ahab. Tell him that I will soon send rain!"  But the scripture goes on to explain how Elijah set up a contest between himself and the prophets of Baal over which God could set fire to the wood for the animal sacrifice.  The prophets of Baal tried for half the day while Elijah ridiculed them.  Then in the evening Elijah had water poured over his alter 3 times and prayed and God sent fire from heaven that burned up everything including the stones and dried up all the water in the ditch.

That contest was a little bit more than simply telling King Ahab that God was going to send rain.

And as far as God perfoming miracles still today; I have repeatedly stated that I'm not discussing whether or not God performs miracles, I'm discussing whether or not His followers still perform miracles.  By His followers "performing" miracles, I am speaking of a person clearly describing to witnesses the miracle that will happen, the person then praying to God, and the miracle immediately happening in front of all the witnesses.


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## atlashunter (Jun 27, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> That's an interesting one.  I'll just have to let you have that one.
> 
> What emotion do you think testing God in any way is likely to illicit if he tells you specifically not to do so?



Given what is claimed about the god of the bible I can't think of any words that would accurately describe an emotion so strong as to match his actions. I've been awfully angry and enraged in my life but never so much that I would burn someone forever if I could. The god of the bible will do that over the smallest of transgressions.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 27, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I'll be back on in a bit, I have to go get my Suburban inspected. Please, with me, pray that it passes inspection.


Did it pass??? Just wanted to know  Can we claim it as miracle.


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## bullethead (Jun 27, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Did it pass??? Just wanted to know  Can we claim it as miracle.



YES! YES it did! I mentioned it in post #97.

I am teetering on the fence as to chalk it up as an answered  prayer/miracle or it was just well maintained.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 27, 2011)

Nice dodge....when you decide to answer the question, we'll continue.


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## atlashunter (Jun 27, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Nice dodge....when you decide to answer the question, we'll continue.



Yeah bullet. You know doggone well it took divine intervention for that suburban to pass inspection. Don't deny it!


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## bullethead (Jun 27, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Nice dodge....when you decide to answer the question, we'll continue.



Dodge? Suburbans are Chevrolets!


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## bullethead (Jun 27, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Nice dodge....when you decide to answer the question, we'll continue.



WHO are you referring to HF?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 28, 2011)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Huntinfool
> That's an interesting one. I'll just have to let you have that one.
> 
> ...



I'm referring to this dodge....not Dodge.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 28, 2011)

> Quote:
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by Huntinfool
> ...



I'm referring to this dodge....not Dodge.


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## atlashunter (Jun 28, 2011)

What are you referring to when you say he tells you specifically not to do so? Prayer?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 28, 2011)

test Him.


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## atlashunter (Jun 28, 2011)

Again, the passage in Deuteronomy is talking about testing him with disobedience in the form of worshiping other gods. How you go from that to equating it with prayer is a mystery to me. If praying for miracles is a test and a sin then it is a test and a sin that he instructed people to commit.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 28, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> test Him.



God performed miracles "on demand" for over 4000 years.  Sure, He might have refused to perform many miracles that fit into the category of "testing", but there were plenty of others that He did perform.  Then it stopped.  There were numerous types of miracles performed for numerous different reasons, then it stopped.  

It appears that any miracle that I can think of to ask for, falls under the "testing" category, therefore you say that God would not perform it.  So, I ask you to name a type of miracle that would not offend God to be asked to perform.  Look back at all the miracles that God performed for all the various reasons and find the common denominator.  Find a miracle that fits into the "worthy" category.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Again, the passage in Deuteronomy is talking about testing him with disobedience in the form of worshiping other gods. How you go from that to equating it with prayer is a mystery to me. If praying for miracles is a test and a sin then it is a test and a sin that he instructed people to commit.



Go read what Proverbs says about whether those who don't believe will "get it".  That's about all I know to say right now.  I've got a busy day so it'll be tough to respond in detail.

Jesus (son of God...and part of the trinity) said "Do not test the Lord your God" (quoting the passage you posted) IN DIRECT RESPONSE TO SATAN TELLING HIM TO JUMP OFF A CLIFF AND CALL ANGELS TO SAVE HIM.

When he quoted it to the temptor, it had nothing to do with an idol or another god.  It had everything to do with calling on God to perform a miracle as a test.

Do you not see that?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 28, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> God performed miracles "on demand" for over 4000 years.  Sure, He might have refused to perform many miracles that fit into the category of "testing", but there were plenty of others that He did perform.  Then it stopped.  No....no it did not.  There were numerous types of miracles performed for numerous different reasons, then it stopped.  Again....no it didn't.  You are operating under a false premise.
> It appears that any miracle that I can think of to ask for, falls under the "testing" category, therefore you say that God would not perform it.  So, I ask you to name a type of miracle that would not offend God to be asked to perform.  Look back at all the miracles that God performed for all the various reasons and find the common denominator.  Find a miracle that fits into the "worthy" category.



Any miracle you would ask for WOULD be a test.  You are a non-believer.  You are asking him to prove himself in a test.  By default your requirement is a test.  Sorry buddy.  Them's the breaks.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 28, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Any miracle you would ask for WOULD be a test.  You are a non-believer.  You are asking him to prove himself in a test.  By default your requirement is a test.  Sorry buddy.  Them's the breaks.



This discussion is not about me asking for a miracle.  This has never been about me asking for a miracle.  This has always been about you being able to ask for and receive a miracle.  This has always been about why a follower of Jesus who does not have enough faith (mustard seed) to perform a miracle in Jesus name would think that they have enough faith to get to heaven.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 28, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> This discussion is not about me asking for a miracle.  This has never been about me asking for a miracle.  This has always been about you being able to ask for and receive a miracle.  This has always been about why a follower of Jesus who does not have enough faith (mustard seed) to perform a miracle in Jesus name would think that they have enough faith to get to heaven.



Uh....you asked for a miracle right here...



> It appears that any miracle that I can think of to ask for, falls under the "testing" category, therefore you say that God would not perform it.



I answered your question about whether I can do it earlier.  The answer, according to the Bible, is yes.

But your follow-up is going to be "prove it".  

Jesus said "do not put the Lord your God to the test".  I'm sure that's very frustrating for you.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 28, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Uh....you asked for a miracle right here...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's like me claiming that I can physically lift a bus off the ground as long as no one asks me to do it.  In the bible the power of prayer was more than just a claim.  It actually produced results.  That's why I asked you to figure out some type of worthy miracle that God would grant for His purposes.  If you are unable to figure out ONE SINGLE scenerio in which prayer will result in a miracle, then how can you claim that there is any power in prayer?  How can you claim that prayer can result in a miracle?


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## atlashunter (Jun 28, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Go read what Proverbs says about whether those who don't believe will "get it".  That's about all I know to say right now.  I've got a busy day so it'll be tough to respond in detail.



Such a predictable response when you're cornered. "You just don't get it because you're a non-believer!" No, I get it. You just can't explain your way out of it.




Huntinfool said:


> Jesus (son of God...and part of the trinity) said "Do not test the Lord your God" (quoting the passage you posted) IN DIRECT RESPONSE TO SATAN TELLING HIM TO JUMP OFF A CLIFF AND CALL ANGELS TO SAVE HIM.
> 
> When he quoted it to the temptor, it had nothing to do with an idol or another god.  It had everything to do with calling on God to perform a miracle as a test.



It also had nothing to do with praying for miracles. If it had anything to do with what Jesus is talking about here then that would mean he was instructing people to tempt God. Don't you see that? Are you really trying to build a case that praying for a miracle is tempting God???

Matthew 18 19-20

"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."


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## Huntinfool (Jun 28, 2011)

> Are you really trying to build a case that praying for a miracle is tempting God???



Nope....I am building a case (and a correct one at that) that praying for God to prove his existence by performing a miracle is TESTING God...not tempting him.

Yes, BTW, it is a predictable response from a Christian.  The Bible tells me that you won't get it and I don't expect that I will ever convince you until you are ready to be convinced.  

I am here to argue with you because it sharpens me.  I hope it rings true with you some day.  But that is not why I'm here.



> It also had nothing to do with praying for miracles.



OK, I'm going to post this as slowly as I can so that you follow me...



> ...said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written,
> “‘He will command his angels concerning you,’
> and
> “‘On their hands they will bear you up,
> ...



You're telling me that throwing yourself off a mountain and expecting angels to come save you from hitting the ground would NOT be considered a miracle?

Well, heck, if that's the case then why would you be surprised to see a mountain move?  That's EASY!

Satan told Jesus to jump off that mountain so that God would perform a miracle "as it was written" as a test.  It was a test as to whether God would be faithful to his written word.  It was a test of whether Jesus would put God to the test.  There is no way to deny that.

Jesus' response was "you shall not put the Lord your God to the test"....lest you try to deny whether it was a test, Jesus SAID it was in his response.  

Unless you can come up with a way to twist this to say that angels flying in to the rescue would not somehow be a miracle, we're pretty much at checkmate on that issue....and my King is not cornered my friend.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 28, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Nope....I am building a case (and a correct one at that) that praying for God to prove his existence by performing a miracle is TESTING God...not tempting him.
> 
> Yes, BTW, it is a predictable response from a Christian.  The Bible tells me that you won't get it and I don't expect that I will ever convince you until you are ready to be convinced.
> 
> ...



Satan tempting Jesus has absolutely nothing to do with asking God to prove that He exists, or asking God to prove that He has miraculous power.  Those are two things that satan already knows.

In fact, since satan already knows those things it would be safe to say that satan has 100% faith that God could do those things if God chose to do it.

This scenerio has to do with refusing to be a puppet for satan and do whatever satan asks.

What I'm asking of you is to claim what scripture instructs the followers of Jesus to claim.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 28, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Satan tempting Jesus has absolutely nothing to do with asking God to prove that He exists, or asking God to prove that He has miraculous power.  Those are two things that satan already knows.
> 
> In fact, since satan already knows those things it would be safe to say that satan has 100% faith that God could do those things if God chose to do it.
> 
> ...



Would you please show me in that post where I said either #1 it was a test of whether God exists, or #2 he was asking him to prove he had miraculous power?  YOU are asking me to prove God exists by testing him with a miracle.  

To the last part of the question:  Scripture instructs followers of Christ to do just that....follow Christ.  He is our model and our example.

If he replied to Satan, do not put the Lord your God to the test, then that is our model.  

Jesus did not live his years here and suggest that we see him and do otherwise....what is your point?


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## atlashunter (Jun 28, 2011)

HF, what Satan said to Jesus and what Jesus said in response does not equate to a believer praying for a miracle. It's clear from the scriptures already quoted that Jesus did not equate the two. So the question remains, where are these miracles the believers are supposed to be performing? All you're doing is attempting to dodge the questions HJ and I am asking.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 28, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Would you please show me in that post where I said either #1 it was a test of whether God exists,
> 
> the very first sentence of post #119
> 
> ...



My point is that the bible is full of miracles, a large portion of which were performed for the purpose of proving that God exists and is the one true God, and Jesus perfomed miracles to prove that He was the Messiah, and Jesus instructed His followers to go forth and prophesy and cast out demons and heal the sick and perform miracles in His name.  Jesus telling Satan "No, I won't jump off a mountain just for your amusement" does not change this in any way.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 28, 2011)

I am answering them loudly and clearly.  


You guys are assuming that God is some kind of magic Pez dispenser in the sky.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 28, 2011)

> the very first sentence of post #119



No sir....go back and read it again.  That was the case I was making.  Not what I said Satan was doing.  There is a difference.  I was very specific in my wording.



> our model is to tell SATAN no when satan asks us to jump off a mountain



So you are actually under the impression that the episode was simply about Satan trying to get Jesus to jump off a mountain, huh?  He wasn't trying to accomplish any other goal there, huh?  I know you know better than that.  You're just afraid to concede the point.  I can live with that.



> Jesus telling Satan "No, I won't jump off a mountain just for your amusement" does not change this in any way.



You're correct.  It doesn't change it.  It puts the ability and responsibility in its proper context...and that is important.  

God is not a jeanie in a bottle.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 28, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> No sir....go back and read it again.  That was the case I was making.  Not what I said Satan was doing.  There is a difference.  I was very specific in my wording.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The book of Acts is full of miracles performed by the followers of Jesus.  Please explain the exact purpose of these healings and casting out of demons and miracles.  According to you, they could not have been to prove God exists or to prove that God has the power to perform miracles, otherwise they would not have happened, because that would have been testing God.  Please put into words exactly what purpose they served.


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## HawgJawl (Jun 28, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Scripture instructs followers of Christ to do just that....follow Christ.  He is our model and our example.



Jesus performed many miracles, cast out many demons, and healed many people.  Jesus instructed His followers to do the same thing.  His followers were in fact empowered to do the same type of miracles as detailed in the book of Acts.  Jesus clearly promised that if a follower has faith the size of a mustard seed they can perform miracles in His name.

You're saying that NONE of this applies to a follower today, because actually doing what Jesus did and instructed His followers to do would fall into the category of testing God?


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## atlashunter (Jun 28, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Jesus performed many miracles, cast out many demons, and healed many people.  Jesus instructed His followers to do the same thing.  His followers were in fact empowered to do the same type of miracles as detailed in the book of Acts.  Jesus clearly promised that if a follower has faith the size of a mustard seed they can perform miracles in His name.
> 
> You're saying that NONE of this applies to a follower today, because actually doing what Jesus did and instructed His followers to do would fall into the category of testing God?



Certainly appears that way...


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## Huntinfool (Jun 28, 2011)

> Please put into words exactly what purpose they served.



To confirm the message that was being preached.  To add authority to what the apostles were saying about and in place of Jesus as they continued to spread the Gospel.


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## stringmusic (Jun 28, 2011)

Ya'll are giving me a headache.

However, it is interesting, carry on people


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## HawgJawl (Jun 28, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> To confirm the message that was being preached.  To add authority to what the apostles were saying about and in place of Jesus as they continued to spread the Gospel.



For the sake of this discussion, I'll accept this purpose; "to  confirm and add authority to the message being preached in an effort to spread the gospel".

The method utilized by Jesus and prescribed by Jesus for His followers to accomplish this purpose included performing miracles, casting out demons, healing the sick, and relaying prophesies.

The mission has not yet been completed.  The need still exists to confirm and add authority to the message being preached in an effort to spread the gospel.

When and why did the method change from what Jesus prescribed?


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## Huntinfool (Jun 28, 2011)

Is it possible that the confirmation and authority was added by the disciples as they spread the Gospel?  Is it possible that we have a written account of those events to confirm that authority?

Let me ask this.  Outside of the historical account of Acts when the 11 that remained performed miracles and signs, look at the letters written to followers.  Do you see the apostles commanding followers to perform miracles for the same purpose?

I gotta head home.  I'll check in with you guys in the morning.  You're challenging me.  I'll give ya that.  I'm actually re-thinking a couple of my statements earlier because I believe I may have mis-spoken.

BUT...My 2 YO boy got the cast off his arm this afternoon and we're having a Harley Davidson cake and a pool party...which is WAY more important that y'all!

We just let it heal the old fashioned way.  Perhaps I should have prayed for a miracle???


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## HawgJawl (Jun 28, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Is it possible that the confirmation and authority was added by the disciples as they spread the Gospel?
> 
> Jesus performed greater miracles than the disciples did. If the plan was to stop the miracles, it would make more sense to stop with Jesus' resurrection and ascension than to let the miracles slowly die out.
> 
> ...



I hope your son's arm has healed well.  Have fun at the party.  The days fly by way too fast.  Soon he'll be graduating high school and you'll wonder where the years went.


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## atlashunter (Jun 28, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Is it possible that the confirmation and authority was added by the disciples as they spread the Gospel?  Is it possible that we have a written account of those events to confirm that authority?



Maybe so... Or maybe the miracle stories are fabrications and the verse that says you can move mountains if you just believe strongly enough is a lie.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2011)

bullethead said:


> YES! YES it did! I mentioned it in post #97.
> 
> I am teetering on the fence as to chalk it up as an answered  prayer/miracle or it was just well maintained.


Halleluya


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## bullethead (Jun 28, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> BUT...My 2 YO boy got the cast off his arm this afternoon and we're having a Harley Davidson cake and a pool party...which is WAY more important that y'all!
> 
> We just let it heal the old fashioned way.  Perhaps I should have prayed for a miracle???



Glad to hear your son's arm is healed.


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