# ASA scoring on a 12. (Must see)



## BowanaLee (Mar 9, 2014)

Theres a big debate over on facebook over ASA's scoring on this 12. Look at the red lines close boys. 
I've seen it go both ways but this is a 12. Next time your scoring an arrow at a local 3-D shoot think about it before you take points away from someone. 
Remember, all an arrow has to do is touch the red line for the higher score.  I've never seen this scoring diagram until now. Whats your thoughts  ?


----------



## 450yardbuck (Mar 9, 2014)

I don't think you could call it out.  I would sure lobby for it if it were mine.


----------



## gcs (Mar 9, 2014)

I would have called it a 10 till you showed the asa rules. Thanks for posting.


----------



## BobbyNSian03 (Mar 9, 2014)

I would have called a 10 also! Thanks for sharing!!! (None of mine were that close today)


----------



## jasonsg (Mar 9, 2014)

That's a close call always in doubt I give the higher score. Correct me if I'm wrong but it has to cut the line not touch it. Definitely a 10 but I've shot with some that would not give u a 12 bc of the gap at the connector line


----------



## alligood729 (Mar 9, 2014)

I would have called it a ten too, but stand corrected by Mr. Dan McCarthy on fbook. I guarantee you one thing though, if it were on a target with the old metal scoring rings, it would be a 10, if not banged out into an 8....


----------



## Kool Hand Luke (Mar 9, 2014)

Thats 12,red line wouldve caught edge arrow.


----------



## bamaboy (Mar 9, 2014)

That is a 12 all day long. The ASA rules and pic you posted is good info for the ones that did not already know.


----------



## BowanaLee (Mar 9, 2014)

jasonsg said:


> That's a close call always in doubt I give the higher score. Correct me if I'm wrong but it has to cut the line not touch it. Definitely a 10 but I've shot with some that would not give u a 12 bc of the gap at the connector line


According to ASA, it only has to "touch" the line. Not break or cut it. 
There has to be a slight space between the shaft and line for the lower score.

From ASA. The arrow shaft must  be touching a portion of the next highest scoring  line to be scored for the higher value.


----------



## t8ter (Mar 9, 2014)

How would u not call that a 12?


----------



## Kris87 (Mar 9, 2014)

12 for me.


----------



## KillZone (Mar 9, 2014)

Man that's a close one, that is on the edge of the pie, even if you overlay the red line that is close -- can't really answer.


----------



## jasonsg (Mar 9, 2014)

Thanks for the correction bowanna that's what I always thought but in fla and Columbus I was told it had to break the line. This is my first year shooting asa so I'm still trying to soak it all in! I've been called out for pulling the line and not breaking it. Bet it don't happen any more lol!


----------



## BigJR (Mar 9, 2014)

If you guys get the tour guide that picture is on the second page has been for at least the past 3 years I know for a fact I'm setting here looking at them ! Had to call one identicle to it today and gave him a 12 but I be had them go both ways at local and national shoots the national shoots are hard to stomach that called a 10 but it goes with majority rule! And the bad thing most don't want to give a guy a 12 when it's in that position BUT it is!!!


----------



## BigJR (Mar 9, 2014)

jasonsg said:


> That's a close call always in doubt I give the higher score. Correct me if I'm wrong but it has to cut the line not touch it. Definitely a 10 but I've shot with some that would not give u a 12 bc of the gap at the connector line



It doesn't have to cut the line it just has to touch it and never use the term pulling the line although it may be actually pulling the line it's a wiser statement to simply say it's touching the line!!!! There are a lot of people not scoring correctly out there but you are simply beating your self by not knowing the next guy behind hits the same hole and scores it correctly he just gained 2 points on ya and you guys know how tight scores are now without 14's 2 points could mean a couple hundred dollar at a national shoot even for the amateurs !


----------



## dh88 (Mar 9, 2014)

After seeing the scoring pic i say 12 all day.


----------



## BowanaLee (Mar 9, 2014)

dh88 said:


> After seeing the scoring pic i say 12 all day.


Me too but only after seeing the pic. Thats why I posted it here. I don't remember seeing it in the tour guide.


----------



## BigJR (Mar 9, 2014)

It's there pg 2!!!!!! I'm sorry pg 4!!!!!


----------



## BowanaLee (Mar 9, 2014)

What cha think ?


----------



## BigJimT (Mar 9, 2014)

This did happen to me at Fort Benning. The guy I was shooting with said I had to cut the line. My arrow kind off pulled the line to it. It semmed very noticeable. I was called out. Later on in our shoot the guy who called me out actually had the samething happen to him. He wanted that 12. We called him out. Carma maybe, still had a blast.


----------



## alligood729 (Mar 10, 2014)

The issue lies with that picture of the scoring line. I personally had not looked at it, didn't know that a circle could have a tag on the connector side. I have that picture saved on my phone. Argue with me now suckas......Of course, I have to actually hit a 12....


----------



## JustUs4All (Mar 10, 2014)

If that is my arrow it's a 12 all day long.
If it is yours, well, we would have to talk about it for a while.


----------



## KillZone (Mar 10, 2014)

With that last pic, that's a 12


----------



## dgmeadows (Mar 10, 2014)

Yep.  Those diagrams have been in the tour guide a few years now.  I have explained that many times when shooting with newer shooters.


----------



## Its Amazing (Mar 10, 2014)

I would have called it a 10 without seeing the drawing! Thanks for the clarification


----------



## watermedic (Mar 10, 2014)

So is this in or out?


----------



## KillZone (Mar 10, 2014)

Out, score is a 10, little to much in the pie


----------



## HappyHillbilly (Mar 10, 2014)

Thank you, "bowanna," for posting this!

Without seeing the 2nd photo, with the red lines, I'd call that a 10 all day long. In all actuality, I still think it should be a 10 because the arrow is outside of the circular pattern of the 12 ring. But I'll follow along and consider the tags/tabs from here on out until ASA officially changes it. Now all I gotta do is be able to get that dang close to the 10 ring - away from the 8s & 5s. Ha! Ha!

Later!
HH
(Mike Sanders)


----------



## dgmeadows (Mar 10, 2014)

watermedic said:


> So is this in or out?
> 
> 
> View attachment 779221



Well, assuming the upper 12 was called or otherwise counts (or the pic is upside down)...that is a really close one and depends on where you think the intersection of the two rings starts (where you draw the imaginary verticle line across.)  I would probably call it a 12 for others, and would expect 99% of people would not call it a 12 if it were my arrow.


----------



## watermedic (Mar 10, 2014)

I dis agree using the diagram.


----------



## BowanaLee (Mar 10, 2014)

Best I can tell thats the connector line at the IBO 12. According to the ASA diagram, the tabs are slightly narrower there. I'm being a little liberal with my line. Id call that one a 10 but wouldn't complain if it went the other way. Its reaaaal close.


----------



## dgmeadows (Mar 10, 2014)

bowanna said:


> Best I can tell thats the connector line at the IBO 12. According to the ASA diagram, the tabs are slightly narrower there. Id call that one a 10 but wouldn't complain if it went the other way. Now that I've seen the ASA diagram, I'm a little more liberal.




Yeah, I would draw the tab a little narrower than Chuck's pic above, but I would still say that the arrow is touching the corner of the extended tab and call it a 12.   Lee's line does not appear to go all the way to the inside of the IBO 12 line to me.

Remember that the photo is magnified many times over.  We are really talking about a millimeter here.  If there is a millimeter of clear "meat" between an arrow and a line, it is out.  Here, because of the way the lines are cut and the ASA "tab" rule where the lines overlap, there is no clear demarcation to call it in or out, and if I am calling, I am not going to take that 12 away from the shooter.


----------



## BowanaLee (Mar 10, 2014)

I see where your coming from but Id like to point out that the tabs flair inward instead of outward at the IBO line.
My drawing was actually very liberal. Heres a revised pic. Id still go with either call and would probably lean toward the shooter.


----------



## dmedd (Mar 10, 2014)

I never realized the 12s were shaped like keyholes.


----------



## BowanaLee (Mar 10, 2014)

I didn't know it either. That was why I posted this thread. Hopefully there will be less confusion. I doubt it though.


----------



## watermedic (Mar 10, 2014)

Keep in mind that this is only if the rings touch. The new targets do not have connectors.


----------



## red1691 (Mar 10, 2014)

Some times a photo can be deceptive, just saying can't see all angles, hard to tell!


----------



## BowanaLee (Mar 10, 2014)

watermedic said:


> Keep in mind that this is only if the rings touch. The new targets do not have connectors.



Do they go by the touch the line rule ?


----------



## watermedic (Mar 10, 2014)

Yes they do.

Any foam in between the arrow and the line gets the lower of the two scores.

Pulling the line doesn't get the score, the arrow has to actually touch the line.


----------



## HappyHillbilly (Mar 10, 2014)

If the "in or out" photo posted by “watermedic” is an upper 12, according to my overlayed photo below it would be a 12 point score.

Using Adobe Photo Shop, I took the original photo of the shot and had to resize & rotate the ASA scoring diagram and then reduce the opacity of it. 

Just in case the image doesn't display below, here's a link to it: http://www.happyhillbilly.com/in_or_out_overlayed.jpg


----------



## watermedic (Mar 10, 2014)

The two pics in this thread are as close as you can get without being out in my opinion.

The one in my pic was my arrow on a 42 yd mule deer. 

I called it out.


----------



## BowanaLee (Mar 10, 2014)

watermedic said:


> Yes they do.
> 
> Any foam in between the arrow and the line gets the lower of the two scores.
> 
> Pulling the line doesn't get the score, the arrow has to actually touch the line.



My interpretation of pulling the line is where your arrow pulls the line into the arrow hole. It touches by being stretched over to it.



watermedic said:


> The two pics in this thread are as close as you can get without being out in my opinion.
> 
> The one in my pic was my arrow on a 42 yd mule deer.
> 
> I called it out.


 You made a good case. I cant take it away from the shooter. I guess I'll give ya that call.


----------



## dh88 (Mar 11, 2014)

watermedic said:


> Keep in mind that this is only if the rings touch. The new targets do not have connectors.


The new targets still connect at the ten/twelve line upper and lower.The only part that doesn't connect is the IBO/12. Just like in the first pic there is a gap now.


----------



## dgmeadows (Mar 11, 2014)

HappyHillbilly said:


> If the "in or out" photo posted by “watermedic” is an upper 12, according to my overlayed photo below it would be a 12 point score.
> 
> Using Adobe Photo Shop, I took the original photo of the shot and had to resize & rotate the ASA scoring diagram and then reduce the opacity of it.
> 
> Just in case the image doesn't display below, here's a link to it: http://www.happyhillbilly.com/in_or_out_overlayed.jpg



The issue with using this overlay is that the ring lines are not always the same width.  If you look closely at the width of the line on the other side of that arrow, it is a wider line than the overlay.  It looks to me that this line is much deeper than any of red lines drawn. Of course it is a pic, and it may have looked different in the field.  There may have been a wide spot on the line right there, but it may have narrowed back at the connector.  If there is an extra fat line, to me, that is just luck of the draw & the shooter gets the points, even if it would have been out on a "normal" line.


----------



## HappyHillbilly (Mar 11, 2014)

Yeah, that overlay photo I created isn't perfect. It was quite a pain in the butt to get it as close as it is. Though it may not appear as so, the outer red lines are near dead on with the outer edges of the ASA 12 & IBO rings, except for at the top of the photo - at the 12/10 ring intersection. I consider that to be attributed to photo angles. The shadows of the original shot photo are deceptive when looking through the scoring diagram overlay.

As far as I'm concerned, watermedic made the correct call by calling it a 10. If I make the same shot this weekend I'm a calling it a 10, without hesitation. I shoot for the 12 ring, not the 12 ring tabs. And if someone beats me by 2 points by calling a similar shot using the tabs, then so be it. I'll still be a proud archer.

For someone else's arrow, I'll give them whichever they want for that shot - a 12 or a 10. I sure as heck ain't gonna start carryin' a laptop and start overlaying photos to call a score. I'm a simple man with a simple brain. I have to adhere to the KISS rule: Keep It Simple, Stupid. Ha! Ha! 

Have a good one!
HH


----------



## oldgeez (Mar 12, 2014)

way to go, lee.  I didn't think that much about it when I saw it on fb, but you are the man bringing this to everybody's attention.  I just wish the "tabs" would have come to light years ago.  I've had a million of those called 10's, lol  I would have called that shot a 10 all day long, until I discovered the "tabs" on the bow-wanna's post.   oh, and happy billbilly, I admire your opinion, we all shoot for a pinwheel 12, BUT a jar licking tab 12 will look like a pin wheel on the scorecard, lol!!  this mullet needs all the help he can get, llllol's!!


----------



## HappyHillbilly (Mar 12, 2014)

oldgeez said:


> .........oh, and happy billbilly, I admire your opinion, we all shoot for a pinwheel 12, BUT a jar licking tab 12 will look like a pin wheel on the scorecard, lol!!  this mullet needs all the help he can get, llllol's!!


Buddy, I know exactly what you mean. In my first post in this thread I said, _"Now all I gotta do is be able to get that dang close to the 10 ring - away from the 8s & 5s."_

Does the 8 ring have a tab, too? Or a 2-inch forgiveness zone? 

Have a great day!
HH


----------



## BowanaLee (Mar 12, 2014)

I hope everybody had a chance to see the scoring lines for the 12 on this post. I thought I knew it all until I saw it. 
This was the first time I was ever wrong.


----------



## EagleEye3D (Mar 12, 2014)

See there Lee. Id say u owe me at least 20 12's.ill take them on our next shoots scorecard!    lol


----------



## BowanaLee (Mar 12, 2014)

EagleEye3D said:


> See there Lee. Id say u owe me at least 20 12's.ill take them on our next shoots scorecard!    lol


No way buddy. I just saw a thread concerning score calls. Your on your on !


----------



## oldgeez (Mar 12, 2014)

you're not always right, but you're never wrong...just like my wife, lolo!!


----------



## EagleEye3D (Mar 14, 2014)

bowanna said:


> No way buddy. I just saw a thread concerning score calls. Your on your on !



Lol. I hear ya buddy. I saw that too!


----------



## BOTTEMLINE (Mar 14, 2014)

*Smoke*

Bowanna..You told me my entire shaft had to be inside the 12??  ..


----------



## watermedic (Mar 14, 2014)

Only you though bottemline!

Everyone else can nibble and count!!


----------



## BowanaLee (Mar 14, 2014)

BOTTEMLINE said:


> Bowanna..You told me my entire shaft had to be inside the 12??  ..



No no no no no. No No: Your thinking about someone else. I've always played "jar licker's" where you touch the line to get the higher score. 
I just didn't know the line extended out into the tabs.


----------



## huntin4bucks (Mar 16, 2014)

im sorry guys that's a 10 all day its not up far enough to break the 12 line, that stuff about pulling the line down is garbage. so if you guys are with me shooting and im scoreing arrows I call it a 10 b e thankful of the 10 move on.


----------



## huntin4bucks (Mar 16, 2014)

*redline*

has anyone noticed how long the red line have gotten? come on guys , it has to touch the line or suck the line in on shaft. learn to shoot and there wont be a doubt. I wouldn't wanna beg for a 12 that bad.


----------



## alligood729 (Mar 16, 2014)

huntin4bucks said:


> im sorry guys that's a 10 all day its not up far enough to break the 12 line, that stuff about pulling the line down is garbage. so if you guys are with me shooting and im scoreing arrows I call it a 10 b e thankful of the 10 move on.



And you would be wrong, according to the ASA regulations. Read the guide, study the scoring diagram. It's a 12, no begging required. Initially I said the same thing you did. But I was corrected on Fbook by several of the most respected professional 3d shooters in the US. It's a 12.....


----------



## oldgeez (Mar 16, 2014)

I beg all the time..you always told me it had to be completely inside the 12 for it to count, Bow-wanna, lol!!  jar-lickers don't count, unless you got one?????


----------



## BowanaLee (Mar 16, 2014)

oldgeez said:


> I beg all the time..you always told me it had to be completely inside the 12 for it to count, Bow-wanna, lol!!  jar-lickers don't count, unless you got one?????



Nope !  No No: Touching the outside of the line is a jar licker.  It only has to "touch" the line or "touch" the ASA tabs.  
Now it can pull the line over and touch it, but the word is "touch".    .......Your showing your age.


----------



## olinprice (Mar 16, 2014)

The key to not having to make calls like that is to shoot good enough to not hit the lines lol im not to that point yet so i will take whatever the arrow caller calls but hope he calls it a 12 lol


----------



## BowanaLee (Mar 16, 2014)

huntin4bucks said:


> im sorry guys that's a 10 all day its not up far enough to break the 12 line, that stuff about pulling the line down is garbage. so if you guys are with me shooting and im scoreing arrows I call it a 10 b e thankful of the 10 move on.



ASA says, this is a twelve.  The purpose of this post was to educate. So educate yourself. I did !


----------



## oldgeez (Mar 16, 2014)

you know i'm senile, but you can't think i'm serious, you arrow slinging gutter monkey, lol!!


----------



## HappyHillbilly (Mar 16, 2014)

It's really not as difficult as it may seem to call/score similar shots. I've not tried it on an actual target but it appears that all you have to do is lay a scorecard across the points that the 10 & upper/lower 12 rings connect to follow the tabs to the outer edge of the 10 ring.


----------



## HappyHillbilly (Mar 16, 2014)

The upper/lower 12 & IBO ring tabs. These images aren't perfect - the original ASA scoring diagram isn't perfect as you can see that the page is bent in the photo & that will throw the lines off a bit. 

The lines I added to the diagram are straight, but under/over-rotated and moved slightly past ring intersections to demonstrate how it appears to me that simply using a scorecard to make the call should work. The arrow in question should always get the benefit of the doubt. 





Catch ya'll later!
HH


----------



## big game (Mar 18, 2014)

its a 10


----------



## watermedic (Mar 18, 2014)

Here is the original pic that shows the connector width better.


----------



## BowanaLee (Mar 18, 2014)

oldgeez said:


> you know i'm senile, but you can't think i'm serious, you arrow slinging gutter monkey, lol!!


Johnny, as one senile old ugly rascal to another, I love ..er a, like you man. 


big game said:


> its a 10


Before seeing ASA's scoring diagram, I thought the same thing. Its their rules though. We just follow them. 


HappyHillbilly said:


> The upper/lower 12 & IBO ring tabs. These images aren't perfect - the original ASA scoring diagram isn't perfect as you can see that the page is bent in the photo & that will throw the lines off a bit.
> The lines I added to the diagram are straight, but under/over-rotated and moved slightly past ring intersections to demonstrate how it appears to me that simply using a scorecard to make the call should work. The arrow in question should always get the benefit of the doubt.


Your lines make perfect sense to me. Hopefully someone will learn something here ?


----------



## oldgeez (Mar 18, 2014)

this is going to be trouble for years to come


----------



## HappyHillbilly (Mar 18, 2014)

bowanna said:


> Your lines make perfect sense to me. Hopefully someone will learn something here ?


Ha! Ha! I have! After realizin' how the tabs are formed with the lines it makes sense to me for ASA to give the shooter the benefit of the doubt. It's actually a lot easier than tryin' to figure out just how far into the 10 ring _(or IBO ring)_ the 12 ring goes since they're not always symmetrical.

Folks - Be sure to lay the scorecard flat on the target, either face up or face down. Don't go tryin' to lay the thin edge on the target while flexing the scorecard to make the arrow appear in or out. Even my inbred cuzin' Red can figure that one out. 

That was a 12. All day long. Watermedic still made the right call at the time, but most of us know better, now, thanks to bowanna posting this info


----------



## goshenmountainman (Mar 19, 2014)

Been that way for a while, had to let somebody know about it last year. They wanted to score their own shot as a ten and I told him it was a twelve and showed him in the manual.


----------



## HappyHillbilly (Mar 19, 2014)

Sure would be nice if ASA were to put that manual on their website as a PDF download. Heck, I'd even pay for a printed copy of it if they were to offer it on their site. At least, I can't find the manual or the scoring diagram on there.


----------



## alligood729 (Mar 19, 2014)

big game said:


> its a 10



Wrong....


----------



## BlackArcher (Mar 22, 2014)

10- if its a 12 I have been getting robbed for years..


----------



## alligood729 (Mar 22, 2014)

BlackArcher said:


> 10- if its a 12 I have been getting robbed for years..



Big E, Levi, McCarthy, Griggs, and several other pro shooters say 12. We been robbing ourselves....


----------



## HappyHillbilly (Mar 22, 2014)

I actually got to try this firsthand today, on a target/close shot, that my wife made. I had the scoring diagrams, with & without the lines I added in previous photos, and used a scorecard and we both came to the same conclusion - her arrow was a 10 by about the thickness of the scorecard.

My wife's a sport, and we both answer to a Higher Power - God.

Later!
HH


----------



## BowanaLee (Mar 22, 2014)

BlackArcher said:


> 10- if its a 12 I have been getting robbed for years..



I was getting robbed to but not since I saw ASA's scoring diagram. I caught a tab today. Didn't help much though.


----------



## oldgeez (Mar 23, 2014)

, I caught a tab myself yesterday.  when you're a mullet, every bit helps, lol!!


----------



## oldgeez (Apr 9, 2014)

bump it up for some great info


----------

