# Divorce/Remarriage/Matthew 19:4-12



## Dog Hunter (May 8, 2013)

What are your thoughts on this?  Our sermon was on divorce, remarriage, forgiveness to other person, and trying to work things out.  

Is divorce right?  Remarriage?  Should one try to make things work no matter what has happened or how bad things are?


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## Huntinfool (May 8, 2013)

There are several "schools" on this issue.  Most people ascribe to what most would call "the exception clause" in Matthew and Deut.

After lots of study, I'm likely in the minority and am fairly well convinced that there is no exception.  Jesus made no exception in scripture and marriage is permanent.

Because of that, I personally ascribe to the "permanence view of marriage".  There is no exception.  If you are married, you are married and God prefers no divorce, ever for any reason.

I wrote up my explanation a while back in here.  But, like I said, 99% of responses you're going to get are going to be "no divorce, except in the case of adultery".

I will say this though.  There sufficient grace to cover divorce and remarriage, even if there's no "exception clause".  Grace is sufficient to cover a multitude of things.


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## stringmusic (May 8, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> There are several "schools" on this issue.  Most people ascribe to what most would call "the exception clause" in Matthew and Deut.
> 
> After lots of study, I'm likely in the minority and am fairly well convinced that there is no exception.  Jesus made no exception in scripture and marriage is permanent.
> 
> ...



That could also be a slippery slope. I don't see the particular verse predicated on the fact that it has to be physical adultery.

Could one then divorce her husband because he lusted for another women?


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## JB0704 (May 8, 2013)

....abandonment.....


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## Huntinfool (May 8, 2013)

> Could one then divorce her husband because he lusted for another women?



That's one of the questions about the supposed exception clause.  Jesus said you've already commited adultery with a woman if you've lusted after her.  If that's the case then ALL of our wives potentially have cause for divorce (just don't tell them!).


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## JB0704 (May 8, 2013)

Dog Hunter said:


> Should one try to make things work no matter what has happened or how bad things are?



This is a touchy subject, for sure.  My first wife r-u-n-n-o-f-t, and I was left with a decision of whether to raise my kid alone and refuse to date for the rest of my life, or accept the fact that junk happens, and, as HF points out, grace is sufficent to cover "all my sins."  I am now happily remarried, and I recognize my divorce as a "gift," as awkward as that sounds.


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## Dog Hunter (May 8, 2013)

What about the cases where one party has no choice in the matter?  I guess they could divorce and never remarry.


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## grouper throat (May 8, 2013)

This is such a convoluted topic but here it goes.. I believe God wants us to try 100% no matter what happens in marriage. Once an affair has happened and reconciliation is tried for by the faithful one, then they have give their due diligence. I did it and it happened to me, I tried to work it out even after her affair. 

I believe literally what it says in Matthew 19:9. If not, I wouldn't be remarrying.


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## j_seph (May 8, 2013)

I can understand the forgiving part. However form a life experience when a man beats his wife down like a dog physically, abandons her and kids, won't answer or call back kids much less see them for 5 years. There is nothing to work out


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## JB0704 (May 8, 2013)

j_seph said:


> There is nothing to work out



Yep, that is often the case.  Then, what can a person do.....I know what choice I made, and that was to be reasonable about the situation, recognize that I was "free," and move on.


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## Ronnie T (May 8, 2013)

Dog Hunter said:


> What are your thoughts on this?  Our sermon was on divorce, remarriage, forgiveness to other person, and trying to work things out.
> 
> Is divorce right?It is scripturally allowed in certain cases  Remarriage?It is scripturally allowed in certain cases  Should one try to make things work no matter what has happened or how bad things are?Yes!  Marriage is to be permanent.  What God has joined together should not be broken.



The Bible, on more than one occasions, speaks of one being permitted to divorce for an act of treason against the marriage commitment, having sex with another person.
But, it is never God's will for a marriage to end.

Today, there are some reason's that God would be comfortable with a person divorcing.  Physical abuse being one of them.

God will judge the HEART of the divorced person just as he will judge the HEART of the person who kills another.


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## hobbs27 (May 8, 2013)

Is God forced to recognize a marriage license from the state, or are we talking about a marriage of two people God brought together?


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## stringmusic (May 8, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Today, there are some reason's that God would be comfortable with a person divorcing.  Physical abuse being one of them.



I'm not saying you're wrong, but don't you think physical abuse existed 2,000 years ago? If so, why do you think it was not mentioned, and why do you think it's ok to divorce because of it today?


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## Huntinfool (May 8, 2013)

j_seph said:


> I can understand the forgiving part. However form a life experience when a man beats his wife down like a dog physically, abandons her and kids, won't answer or call back kids much less see them for 5 years. There is nothing to work out



Unfortunately though, that's a prime example of why I don't believe in the "exception clause".  There is quite literally no exception for cases of physical abuse...which to most people seems like a "no-brainer" for divorce.

If God doesn't allow for divorce in that case, why in another?

(Just BTW....there is a big difference in divorce and just being stupid and staying in a house when you're being beaten half to death nightly).


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## Huntinfool (May 8, 2013)

> Today, there are some reason's that God would be comfortable with a person divorcing. Physical abuse being one of them.



Care to share how you know that?


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## Madman (May 8, 2013)

I know this; 

              There is nothing broken,
                                          He cannot fix.

              There is no need,
                                          He cannot fill.

              There is no pain,
                                          He cannot sooth.

              There is no injury,
                                         He cannot heal.

              There is no life,
                                        He cannot redeem.

God, full of grace and mercy.


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## JB0704 (May 8, 2013)

Madman said:


> I know this;
> 
> There is nothing broken,
> He cannot fix.
> ...



I believe this was acomplished through my ex-wife's departure.  The pain and suffering was during that marriage, the healing occured after.


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## swampstalker24 (May 8, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong, but don't you think physical abuse existed 2,000 years ago? If so, why do you think it was not mentioned, and why do you think it's ok to divorce because of it today?



It wasn't mentioned because in the day of the bible, women were not seen as equal to men, and if you had to smack'em around a little to keep them in check then it was ok.  But in reality, women are equal as men, and no one deserve to enure physical abuse.


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## j_seph (May 8, 2013)

I believe people were more religious, god fearing folks, that done as the bible told them compared to today.

 Colossians 3:19 ESV
Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them

Let me be clear: divorce is not God’s best and should rarely happen. God wants reconciliation between us and him and between us and other people.  However, there are times when the option to divorce is scripturally acceptable.

1.  Adultery (in Deuteronomy 24 and Matthew 19)

2.  Emotional and Physical neglect (including abuse and abandonment) Exodus 21 and 1 Corinthians 7)


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## Throwback (May 8, 2013)

just because God's Word allows divorce because of certain reasons doesn't mean its a mandate. Things happen and people aren't perfect. If God forgave us shouldn't we at least try instead of just quitting something we swore before God and a host of witnesses to be part of "for better or worse"?


T


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## JB0704 (May 8, 2013)

Throwback said:


> just because God's Word allows divorce because of certain reasons doesn't mean its a mandate. Things happen and people aren't perfect. If God forgave us shouldn't we at least try instead of just quitting something we swore before God and a host of witnesses to be part of "for better or worse"?
> 
> 
> T



.....and what for the folks who aren't doing the quittin'?


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## Milkman (May 8, 2013)

Divorce is a gift from God


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## Throwback (May 8, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> .....and what for the folks who aren't doing the quittin'?



my post was directed at those that had problems but both were wanting to fix the problem or at least try. too many folks I know just jumped ship just because they could without even trying to reconcile when it was possible. 


T


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## stringmusic (May 8, 2013)

Milkman said:


> Divorce is a gift from God



Why do you think God gives us a "gift" that He wants us to avoid at all costs? Not to mention direct instructions on how not to recieve this "gift".


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## JB0704 (May 8, 2013)

Throwback said:


> my post was directed at those that had problems but both were wanting to fix the problem or at least try. too many folks I know just jumped ship just because they could without even trying to reconcile when it was possible.
> 
> 
> T



Ok.  And, yes, I know folks who did that as well.  With my first wife, I did give effort at restoration, even though I was about as miserable as a human can be, but, she left, that was that.  Not much a man can do when a woman has made up her mind to go.  I got the kid, that's what was important.


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## JB0704 (May 8, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Why do you think God gives us a "gift" that He wants us to avoid at all costs? Not to mention direct instructions on how not to recieve this "gift".



You have to live in a terrible marriage for a while to understand the freedom one feels when it's over.  I was miserable during my first marriage, but I was never going to leave because I had made a vow.  But she left, and that was a gift.


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## rjcruiser (May 8, 2013)

I'm with Huntinfool for the most part.

Reconciliation and forgiveness should always be the first course of action.

However, as JB has shown, there's times when the other is unwilling to repent/return/reconcile.  In that case, as shown in Matthew, it is permitted.


I do think that too many divorce too quickly and utilize the Matthew passage as an excuse or reason rather than working through the issues.


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## rjcruiser (May 8, 2013)

Milkman said:


> Divorce is a gift from God



You have a warped view of God if you believe that.

Marriage is a gift of God.....not divorce.


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## stringmusic (May 8, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> You have to live in a terrible marriage for a while to understand the freedom one feels when it's over.  I was miserable during my first marriage, but I was never going to leave because I had made a vow.  But she left, and that was a gift.



I couldn't imagine how tough that is, and I can definitely see where you're coming from.

 I'm still not convinced that divorce is a "gift" from God. Reconciliation, I believe, is a gift from God, but in your case in particular, there was no chance of that through no fault of yours.


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## j_seph (May 8, 2013)

I think I know the answer for all. Too many people are getting married for the wrong reasons. They do not have their lives (Husband and Wife) centered around God to begin with. Too many people rush into marriage to begin with that shouldn't be married to begin with. I was talking to a girl yesterday said she had been engaged for 4 years, she got pregnant and they got engaged 4 years ago. My words to her was, nothing wrong with 4 years engaged. Do not get married until you and he both know for a fact. I told her if she nor he were willing to stay by each others side regardless of lifes events then there was no need to be married. If she nor he weren't willing to go all the way with the sickness and in health, good times and bad times there was no use in getting married. If it is Lust not Love from both sides it will not last. I've been told by many that what I did taking care of my wife was more than most would have done and I agree 100%. If it's not based on God and Love from both sides it ain't gonna work period.


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## rjcruiser (May 8, 2013)

j_seph said:


> I think I know the answer for all. Too many people are getting married for the wrong reasons. They do not have their lives (Husband and Wife) centered around God to begin with. Too many people rush into marriage to begin with that shouldn't be married to begin with. I was talking to a girl yesterday said she had been engaged for 4 years, she got pregnant and they got engaged 4 years ago. My words to her was, nothing wrong with 4 years engaged. Do not get married until you and he both know for a fact. I told her if she nor he were willing to stay by each others side regardless of lifes events then there was no need to be married. If she nor he weren't willing to go all the way with the sickness and in health, good times and bad times there was no use in getting married. If it is Lust not Love from both sides it will not last. I've been told by many that what I did taking care of my wife was more than most would have done and I agree 100%. If it's not based on God and Love from both sides it ain't gonna work period.



Well said....and your testimony is proof that God at the center is what gets you through the good times and the bad.


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## stringmusic (May 8, 2013)

j_seph said:


> I think I know the answer for all. Too many people are getting married for the wrong reasons. They do not have their lives (Husband and Wife) centered around God to begin with. Too many people rush into marriage to begin with that shouldn't be married to begin with. I was talking to a girl yesterday said she had been engaged for 4 years, she got pregnant and they got engaged 4 years ago. My words to her was, nothing wrong with 4 years engaged. Do not get married until you and he both know for a fact. I told her if she nor he were willing to stay by each others side regardless of lifes events then there was no need to be married. If she nor he weren't willing to go all the way with the sickness and in health, good times and bad times there was no use in getting married. If it is Lust not Love from both sides it will not last. I've been told by many that what I did taking care of my wife was more than most would have done and I agree 100%. If it's not based on God and Love from both sides it ain't gonna work period.


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## gordon 2 (May 8, 2013)

What J-seph said. 

Alot of folk have a civil marriage, even if the ceremony was with a christian setting... in mind. It is a social contract.

And some folk are just the running kind--they might call themselves married for a time, but they are overwelmingly runners more than married.

---------------------------------------------

So.... some folk perhaps live as couples but there is no great spirituality to the union and they are not married in the spiritual sense. The are married as perhaps natural man couples. Their union does not make them one body worked on by two life giving spirits. ( And I don't mean having children.)

Therefore never being married in the spiritual sense, divorce and adultry is not even an issue to the union-- the union which is not a spiritual one, but a union with a hope in convinance and fullfillment in happiness.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Adultry  in a genuine marriage is perhaps a walking away from  the Vision of the Garden of Eden. It is more than sexual promiscuity...It is giving up on the providence of God.

------------------------------------------------------------

I have worked for a bank in lending and one thing that was pointed out early on is that people expect and will go to great lengths to meet their obligations. They earnestly, for the great majority, expect to keep their vows-- even in better and in worse economic situations. Good people are just good people.  Same thing with honoring marriage vows... and we should not forget some well meaning people just can't keep marriage vows due to illness, syndromes and due to bad experiences in their pasts.... plus more...

 Just my scriptureless, but heartfull .02 cents...

--------------------------------------------------------------

Now haveing been married twice.... When I first married at age 24 or so... I thought my marriage would be like my mom and dad's and my neigbour's. Not perfect, but for keeps... Wooo! was I wrong... My head still spins for my first marriage to this day...


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## T.P. (May 8, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> I will say this though.  There sufficient grace to cover divorce and remarriage, even if there's no "exception clause".  Grace is sufficient to cover a multitude of things.





JB0704 said:


> as HF points out, grace is sufficent to cover "all my sins."



Good reading so far. Somebody break down the above so I can understand it a little better.


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## gordon 2 (May 8, 2013)

T.P. said:


> Good reading so far. Somebody break down the above so I can understand it a little better.



I feel uneasy...... I sense for the first time in my life that the answers to your queries... might rise up to reasons of OSAS and "taken up "once"to the throne of eternity  with Jesus...you'll never be kicked off the heavenly team...even for fixing some games" answers. I hope I'm wrong.

Do you know what I mean? If not, this is good I thing... and let the messengers elaborate on their inside game on Grace...


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## T.P. (May 8, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> I feel uneasy...... I sense for the first time in my life that the answers to your queries... might rise up to reasons of OSAS and "taken up "once"to the throne of eternity  with Jesus...you'll never be kicked off the heavenly team...even for fixing some games" answers. I hope I'm wrong.



Thanks, Gordon 2. But, no, I'm not looking for an out with a good excuse. I'm just trying to understand the meaning of life a little better...without going into great detail on an open forum.


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## JB0704 (May 8, 2013)

T.P. said:


> Good reading so far. Somebody break down the above so I can understand it a little better.



In simple terms, divorce doesn't send you to he11.


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## JB0704 (May 8, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I couldn't imagine how tough that is, and I can definitely see where you're coming from.
> 
> I'm still not convinced that divorce is a "gift" from God. Reconciliation, I believe, is a gift from God, but in your case in particular, there was no chance of that through no fault of yours.



Thanks brother. It may not have been a gift, but it was certainly deliverance from evil 

I got married way too young, that's just what folks in my family do.  I can sleep well though because I know for a fact that I was in it for the long run, I just thought that was my punishment for my ignorance and such.


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## T.P. (May 8, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> In simple terms, divorce doesn't send you to he11.



Simple enough, thanks.


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## Throwback (May 8, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> You have to live in a terrible marriage for a while to understand the freedom one feels when it's over.  I was miserable during my first marriage, but I was never going to leave because I had made a vow.  But she left, and that was a gift.



understood

T


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## hobbs27 (May 8, 2013)

Milkman said:


> Divorce is a gift from God



I always thought of it as repentance. The blessings always follow repentance...You make a good point though!


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## Beenthere&donethat (May 8, 2013)

Milkman said:


> Divorce is a gift from God



^ This. In my personal opinion, GOD never intended any of us to live our lives in misery.


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## rjcruiser (May 8, 2013)

T.P. said:


> Good reading so far. Somebody break down the above so I can understand it a little better.



I think the best explanation is in the Hymn Grace Greater than our Sin.

1.	Marvelous grace of our loving Lord, 
	grace that exceeds our sin and our guilt! 
	Yonder on Calvary's mount outpoured, 
	there where the blood of the Lamb was spilt. 

Refrain:
	Grace, grace, God's grace, 
	grace that will pardon and cleanse within; 
	grace, grace, God's grace, 
	grace that is greater than all our sin! 

2.	Sin and despair, like the sea waves cold, 
	threaten the soul with infinite loss; 
	grace that is greater, yes, grace untold, 
	points to the refuge, the mighty cross. 
	(Refrain) 

3.	Dark is the stain that we cannot hide. 
	What can avail to wash it away? 
	Look! There is flowing a crimson tide, 
	brighter than snow you may be today. 
	(Refrain) 

4.	Marvelous, infinite, matchless grace, 
	freely bestowed on all who believe! 
	You that are longing to see his face, 
	will you this moment his grace receive? 
	(Refrain)


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## Ronnie T (May 8, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong, but don't you think physical abuse existed 2,000 years ago? If so, why do you think it was not mentioned, and why do you think it's ok to divorce because of it today?



Because during the past 45 years I've come to realize, in the nature of God, that God would not recognize the marriage of a woman to a man who beats and brutalizes her.  A wife doesn't fear for her life from the hands of her husband.
With all my heart I believe Jesus Christ would be disappointed in me if I urged a woman to stay with that kind of man, because she believes that's what God wants and expects her to do.
.


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## Ronnie T (May 8, 2013)

Throwback said:


> just because God's Word allows divorce because of certain reasons doesn't mean its a mandate. Things happen and people aren't perfect. If God forgave us shouldn't we at least try instead of just quitting something we swore before God and a host of witnesses to be part of "for better or worse"?
> 
> 
> T



Yes.  I'm with you.  Husbands and wives should always seek reconciliation.


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## Ronnie T (May 9, 2013)

I use to be a very stern "Marriage last forever" kinda guy.  I once told a woman that since she had divorced her husband because of his drunkenness, and then herself married someone else, that she was now living in sin!
I should not have said those things to her.  It served no purpose.  I didn't know all the circumstances.

My own marriage clouds my perspective as well.  My wife and I would never divorce each other.  If she, when 25 years old, had cheated with the entire 7th fleet I wouldn't have divorced her.  I love her. (don't even go there).
I believe God joined us together.  Maybe that doesn't necessarily happen with each marriage licenses.

I appreciate Joseph's comment from above.  Some people are living in marriages of hel l ...... please don't attach God's stamp of approval to their marriage.

And, as in all things, God looks at the heart of the person.

Rather than beating up other people's marriage decisions, we should all focus on cementing our own marriages together in ways that we never have before.
Divorce is destructive, isn't it JB? But sometimes we have no choice.


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## stringmusic (May 9, 2013)

Beenthere&donethat said:


> ^ This. In my personal opinion, GOD never intended any of us to live our lives in misery.



Consider the words of Paul in 2 Corinthians describing his life *after* his converstion.....

"_I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches_"

God will for everyone's life isn't to be "happy"(I'm speaking of modern secular "happy")


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## JB0704 (May 9, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Divorce is destructive, isn't it JB?



Absolutely.



Ronnie T said:


> But sometimes we have no choice.



Absolutely.

I don't want anybody to think that I believe "I ain't workin'" is a valid reason for divorce.  My position is that our entire belief system is based on grace and redemption.  That being said, I think a man or woman can be redeemed for poor marital decisions.

I have many faults.  My biggest failure in life was my first choice in who I would marry.  My biggest success was in my second choice in who I would marry.  The success could not have happened without the failure.  

Redemption.


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## Dog Hunter (May 9, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Thanks brother. It may not have been a gift, but it was certainly deliverance from evil



I know what you mean.


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## Dog Hunter (May 9, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Yes.  I'm with you.  Husbands and wives should always seek reconciliation.



Always?  And if one side does not wish to seek, is the other side looked upon in a negative light?


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## Dog Hunter (May 9, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I have many faults.  My biggest failure in life was my first choice in who I would marry.  My biggest success was in my second choice in who I would marry.  The success could not have happened without the failure.
> 
> Redemption.



JB.  I feel the same way.


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## Milkman (May 9, 2013)

Milkman said:


> Divorce is a gift from God





hobbs27 said:


> I always thought of it as repentance. The blessings always follow repentance...You make a good point though!





Beenthere&donethat said:


> ^ This. In my personal opinion, GOD never intended any of us to live our lives in misery.



I knew some readers would understand my meaning.


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## Huntinfool (May 9, 2013)

swampstalker24 said:


> It wasn't mentioned because in the day of the bible, women were not seen as equal to men, and if you had to smack'em around a little to keep them in check then it was ok.  But in reality, women are equal as men, and no one deserve to enure physical abuse.



No one suggested that anyone has to endure physical abuse.  But, there is no exception that allows divorce because of it.  Sticking around to be beaten would be unwise, obviously.  But you can live apart from someone your entire life without being divorced or re-married.


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## Dog Hunter (May 9, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> No one suggested that anyone has to endure physical abuse.  But, there is no exception that allows divorce because of it.  Sticking around to be beaten would be unwise, obviously.  But you can live apart from someone your entire life without being divorced or re-married.



So a woman or man is in a physical abusive marriage, they are to move out and spend the rest of their lives living single and marred?  Say there are kids involved, those kids don't deserve to have a dad or mom figure in their daily lives.  This saying the the abusive parent isn't allowed any contact with children.  And I'm not taking about a person that they see often, I'm taking about getting up in the morning and going to bed at night person.  Is this person condemned if the other person files and recieves a divorce?


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## Huntinfool (May 9, 2013)

T.P. said:


> Thanks, Gordon 2. But, no, I'm not looking for an out with a good excuse. I'm just trying to understand the meaning of life a little better...without going into great detail on an open forum.



Here's a little better explanation I suppose.  God ordained marriage.  It is a covenant and he intends for it to be permanent.  He allows no exception in breaking that covenant...ever (as far as I'm concerned and many disagree).  

However, there are lots of other things that he desires we not do...and we do them.  That does not give us license to do them intentionally.  When I mentioned that grace is sufficient to cover a multitude of things, what I mean is that we often do things that don't please God in ignorance or "non-understanding".  As Christians mature and come to a greater understanding of what God desires in our lives, we should always strive to do what is pleasing to him.

Many people are divorced for a variety of reasons prior to their coming to a proper understanding of what God intends for marriage and what he can truly do in a marriage (even a damaged one) when both partners rely on him and commit to the hard work needed.  If they are, then, re-married have they committed some kind of sin that is not covered by the grace God freely gives?  That would be tantamount to believing that his grace doesn't also cover drug addiction prior to salvation or physical abuse of a spouse or any number of other "great" sins.


A Christian should NEVER approach an impending sin with a "well God's grace will cover me" attitude KNOWING that what they are about to do is sinful and un-pleasing to the Father.

If you have a proper biblical understanding of marriage (or any other topic) and choose willingly to go counter to what you know is biblically true....well it ain't good.


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## Huntinfool (May 9, 2013)

> So a woman or man is in a physical abusive marriage, they are to move out and spend the rest of their lives living single and married?



Biblically?  Yes.



> Say there are kids involved, those kids don't deserve to have a dad or mom figure in their daily lives.  This saying the the abusive parent isn't allowed any contact with children.  And I'm not taking about a person that they see often, I'm taking about getting up in the morning and going to bed at night person.  Is this person condemned if the other person files and recieves a divorce?



If a spouse divorces another spouse, there's not much the "non-filer" can do about it legally speaking.  There is no condemnation for sin for those who are in Christ.

There are lots of things, biblically speaking, that sometimes don't seem or feel pleasant or fair to the flesh.


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## Huntinfool (May 9, 2013)

Beenthere&donethat said:


> ^ This. In my personal opinion, GOD never intended any of us to live our lives in misery.



Your right....and then darn old Adam had to mess all that up.


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## Huntinfool (May 9, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Because during the past 45 years I've come to realize, in the nature of God, that God would not recognize the marriage of a woman to a man who beats and brutalizes her.  A wife doesn't fear for her life from the hands of her husband.
> With all my heart I believe Jesus Christ would be disappointed in me if I urged a woman to stay with that kind of man, because she believes that's what God wants and expects her to do.
> .



We will simply have to disagree on this then.  Don't you think, though, that in every determination of "what God wants", we should be able to support it biblically?

Again, just to be clear...I would never send a beaten woman (or man) home to their spouse and tell them "well, you're married, I guess you just have to live with it".  What I would tell them is "Go find somewhere safe.  Do not let him do this to you ever again."  If they asked my counsel on divorce, it would follow what I've said many times..."You are married and he's not dead yet."


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## Huntinfool (May 9, 2013)

Dog Hunter said:


> Always?  And if one side does not wish to seek, is the other side looked upon in a negative light?



You can only control your "stuff".  But yes, Christians should always seek reconcilation.  You cannot do the work for your spouse.


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## hobbs27 (May 9, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My first marriage was my choice, it was born out of sin. It lasted 15 years and because of me stubbornly trying to keep something together that wasnt meant to be. I suffered many ways in it, my children suffered in it, until one day I went back to my knees and called out to the God that I had been running from. He lifted the burden from me. I realized the vow was made, but I never had Gods blessing on the marriage.
 After being single for a couple of years and getting myself back to the Lord, I cried out to Him again to bring me a wife, and He did. Ive been happy, blessed ever since, because He brought this one together.


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## JB0704 (May 9, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> I think the best explanation is in the Hymn Grace Greater than our Sin.
> 
> 1.	Marvelous grace of our loving Lord,
> grace that exceeds our sin and our guilt!
> ...



That hymn popped in my head during this thread as well.  I grew up in churches that sang old hymns, I miss it sometimes.

The irony in that, though, is that the churches where this was sang tended to be the ones which practiced the concept less than the contemporary churches today which sing about themselves.


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## JB0704 (May 9, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> My first marriage was my choice, it was born out of sin. It lasted 15 years and because of me stubbornly trying to keep something together that wasnt meant to be. I suffered many ways in it, my children suffered in it, until one day I went back to my knees and called out to the God that I had been running from. He lifted the burden from me. I realized the vow was made, but I never had Gods blessing on the marriage.



Mine began similarly.  I stayed in it for 5 years.  I didn't make the choice to go, I came home from a hunting trip and all her stuff was gone.   She also gave me the kid without a fight. I was very lucky in that.  Leading up to her departure was a misery that I can't explain, but calling from work and saying "I'm on the way home," and having your wife say "don't bother...." that's what my life was like, every day, for five years.  

The 5+ years I spent as a single Dad after that one ended were extremely rewarding.  I made some mistakes, but I also learned so much about people, friendships, loyalty, parenting, etc.  It was a hard life, but definitely a road I am glad that I traveled.



hobbs27 said:


> After being single for a couple of years and getting myself back to the Lord, I cried out to Him again to bring me a wife, and He did. Ive been happy, blessed ever since, because He brought this one together.





I spent several years clearing my head of "the snakes" that were leftover from the first disaster.  One thing I made sure of was to keep my kid seperate from the women I dated, as that would muddy the waters too much for him.

Then, I fell in love with a woman I had been good friends with for a few years.  Never really considered dating her, until I did.  At the time I spent a lot of time praying and seeking direction.  I tend to think the results of that choice indicate it was given.


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## gemcgrew (May 9, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> "You are married and he's not dead yet."


I usually refrain from posting links or articles but I think Vincent Cheung nailed it here:

"Nowadays, professing Christians divorce one another for almost any reason, and their churches do very little to stop them. In some congregations, the members have divorced and remarried so often that, in effect, they have been swapping spouses with one another and with the world. "Christians" commit adultery with one another, divorce their spouses, and then marry one another. Then, after a while, they cheat again, divorce again, and remarry again. This is an abomination.

Against this horrifying trend, those of us who truly follow Christ must practice and teach what he commands; that is, marriage is for life, so that there is to be no divorce at all."

http://www.vincentcheung.com/2011/01/02/marriage-and-divorce/


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## Ronnie T (May 9, 2013)

This website pretty much sums up my person feelings about divorce.   (just a couple of paragraphs).

http://us.yhs4.search.yahoo.com/r/_...www.gotquestions.org/grounds-for-divorce.html

If I'm not mistaken, in 1st century Israel, a wife could never divorce her husband for any reason.  And husbands were marrying and divorcing many times in their lives, as they grew weary of the same woman in the house.


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## ratlird (May 9, 2013)

I feel that if parties try to fix the problems and aren't able to work things out and it leads to divorce then our God is a loving God who died for our sins, past, present and future and will forgive those who divorce. I believe divorce is a sin and He will forgive that sin. Just my $.02 worth.


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## au7126 (May 9, 2013)

I really wonder  how many of the posters have walked a mile in the shoes of the one  who has had to forgive many times and listened to the " Go yet and love the woman " scripture only to have to forgive again. I can speak from experience that a time  came that self preservation took over. I can say I do not believe my divorce was in Gods original plan but after some years he took the broken pieces and  put them together for me again in another marriage that he is still blessing today.


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## centerpin fan (May 9, 2013)

Threads like this really bring out the new posters.


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## JB0704 (May 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Threads like this really bring out the new posters.



I thin kit's a good thing.....most of us have argued the same points with each other about 50x's.


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## Huntinfool (May 9, 2013)

ratlird said:


> I feel that if parties try to fix the problems and aren't able to work things out and it leads to divorce then our God is a loving God who died for our sins, past, present and future and will forgive those who divorce. I believe divorce is a sin and He will forgive that sin. Just my $.02 worth.



So, then, if you know something you are about to do is sinful, but decide to do it anyway, it's cool with God because he'll forgive you anyway?  I'll ask you the same question Paul asked...should we go on sinning that grace may abound?  NO!

At some point, isn't there something to spiritual maturity and being in line with the will of God that prevents the believer from knowingly and willfully going against what he has specifically said he does not approve of?



> I really wonder how many of the posters have walked a mile in the shoes of the one who has had to forgive many times and listened to the " Go yet and love the woman " scripture only to have to forgive again.



I can assure you that this particular poster has walked a very difficult road in marriage in the past and I can also assure you that God works miracles in marriages that many people would swear are doomed.  I've seen it time and time again.

There is a reason why the divorce rate in churches is no different than the divorce rate for the overall country.  Christians (for the most part) "give up" on their spouse just as easily as the world does.


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## JB0704 (May 9, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> Christians (for the most part) "give up" on their spouse just as easily as the world does.



It's all about the level of commitment a person has, and it must be reciprocated.


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## grouper throat (May 9, 2013)

JB is right (I cannot quote here at work). Both of the partner's have to be fully committed, not just one.


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## Ronnie T (May 9, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> So, then, if you know something you are about to do is sinful, but decide to do it anyway, it's cool with God because he'll forgive you anyway?      Does your wife cover her head before she prays?
> 
> I'll ask you the same question Paul asked...should we go on sinning that grace may abound?  NO!
> 
> ...



I essentially agree with everything you've said.  I just tossed in a couple of notes for consideration.  
.


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## gordon 2 (May 9, 2013)

Is adultery in the old testament sometimes other than cheating sexually?

 Isaiah 57:3  "But you--come here, you children of a sorceress, you offspring of adulterers and prostitutes!


A Rabbi that could say, " And just thinking about an other man's spouse with lust is sin..." perhaps He could have had a broader view of "adultery in wedlock" than we commonly have.

It perhaps could be argued that Isreal's adultery was not sexual misconduct at all, it was simply, the hebrew mind gravely being out of the "zone" with God. You know the God who is Love and life giving love at that!. That zone.


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## mtnwoman (May 10, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong, but don't you think physical abuse existed 2,000 years ago? If so, why do you think it was not mentioned, and why do you think it's ok to divorce because of it today?



Men don't rule the world any more?


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## mtnwoman (May 10, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Is adultery in the old testament sometimes other than cheating sexually?
> 
> Isaiah 57:3  "But you--come here, you children of a sorceress, you offspring of adulterers and prostitutes!
> 
> ...



I totally agree...I was thinkin' along the same line.


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## mtnwoman (May 10, 2013)

au7126 said:


> In response to how many times do you forgive--adultery. After 20 years and multiple forgive, start over wipe the slate clean I threw in the towel.



All God asks us to do is all we can do....He's good at setting people free, too.


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## Huntinfool (May 10, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I essentially agree with everything you've said.  I just tossed in a couple of notes for consideration.
> .



In response to your additions, do you recall the passage where women who are married to unbelievers are instructed to live in such a way that their unbelieving husband might eventually come to Christ (not necessarily live with)?

...and the answer is yes, one particular day my wife did come to the realization that the man she married wasn't at all who she thought he was.  That is a moment that is burned into my memory.  I wish I could forget it, but I'm glad that it will always remind me of what I'm capable of without the controlling power of the HS in my life.


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## Dog Hunter (May 10, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> You can only control your "stuff".  But yes, Christians should always seek reconcilation.  You cannot do the work for your spouse.



So if one doesn't wish to seek reconcilation, does that make them a nonchristian?  Are they going against God's wishes?


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## Huntinfool (May 10, 2013)

> So if one doesn't wish to seek reconcilation, does that make them a nonchristian? Are they going against God's wishes?



They are certainly going against God's desire that we always reconcile when conflict arises. 

Are they non-Christian?  Not for me to decide I suppose.  This is not an issue of salvation, but more of development or sanctification.


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## Huntinfool (May 10, 2013)

I want to make sure everyone hears me clearly.  I am not condemning any of you who have been divorced in the past.  It seems like that is what I'm getting back in response.  Lots of people who are divorced who are feeling like what I'm saying condemns them.

What I'm saying is God's design for marriage is that two become one and that it is a permanent bond.  Have you divorced in the past?  Fine.  There is sufficient grace.  God desires that your current marriage (if you're married) honor him and his design for marriage.


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## JB0704 (May 10, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> I want to make sure everyone hears me clearly.  I am not condemning any of you who have been divorced in the past.  It seems like that is what I'm getting back in response.  Lots of people who are divorced who are feeling like what I'm saying condemns them.



I don't think you are condemning me, or anybody else.  It seems you have stated your case for grace while protecting the bond of marriage.

Now, in light of that, could I be a deacon at the local church


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## Dog Hunter (May 10, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> I want to make sure everyone hears me clearly.  I am not condemning any of you who have been divorced in the past.  It seems like that is what I'm getting back in response.  Lots of people who are divorced who are feeling like what I'm saying condemns them.
> 
> What I'm saying is God's design for marriage is that two become one and that it is a permanent bond.  Have you divorced in the past?  Fine.  There is sufficient grace.  God desires that your current marriage (if you're married) honor him and his design for marriage.



Not at all.  It's a touch subject.  Reason I brought it up.  
I can say that my current marriage is by his design.


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## gemcgrew (May 10, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Now, in light of that, could I be a deacon at the local church


If I have any say in the matter, you can not even be a member.


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## JB0704 (May 10, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> If I have any say in the matter, you can not even be a member.


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## Huntinfool (May 10, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I don't think you are condemning me, or anybody else.  It seems you have stated your case for grace while protecting the bond of marriage.
> 
> Now, in light of that, could I be a deacon at the local church



As much as I could...


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## JB0704 (May 10, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> As much as I could...


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## hobbs27 (May 10, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I don't think you are condemning me, or anybody else.  It seems you have stated your case for grace while protecting the bond of marriage.
> 
> Now, in light of that, could I be a deacon at the local church



Seperate scripture for that isn't there? Something in Timothy about the qualifications of Bishop and Deacon.


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## JB0704 (May 10, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Seperate scripture for that isn't there? Something in Timothy about the qualifications of Bishop and Deacon.



I was just giving HF grief going back to an old, and somewhat heated, debate we had a few years ago....resulting in my avatar.  

Good times.


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## Huntinfool (May 10, 2013)

Ah yes....good times!  The good old days!

I'm glad to see you're still wearing your badge!


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## JB0704 (May 10, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm glad to see you're still wearing your badge!



....I'm a marked man


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## Huntinfool (May 10, 2013)

I wonder how many people around here think you're a huge University of Delaware fan!!!!  Ha!


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## JB0704 (May 10, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> I wonder how many people around here think you're a huge University of Delaware fan!!!!  Ha!



HA, hadn't thought of that.....I did get some funny PM's when I changed it to a pro-Obama sticker for a few days (as a joke).....

I am a Bama fan, so the colors work, at least 

I leave it up like that becuase I discovered I have difficulty finding my old posts quickly when I change it, I have gotten to where I recognize the color quickly.


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## Artfuldodger (May 12, 2013)

Is this purposefully divorcing viewed differently than other forms of purposely sinning such as living in a gay relationship or Christian couples living together? 
I guess what i'm asking is do you look at it as a sin and just do it anyway and ask for forgiveness?


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## Ronnie T (May 12, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is this purposefully divorcing viewed differently than other forms of purposely sinning such as living in a gay relationship or Christian couples living together?
> I guess what i'm asking is do you look at it as a sin and just do it anyway and ask for forgiveness?



That's a great question.

Is it acceptable to simply go and get divorced, knowing that God will forgive you of the willful sin after the fact?

That's a question that every person will be forced to deal with on many levels in their life.
James 4:17 To one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.
.
.
.
.
James 5:20 
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.


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## Big7 (May 13, 2013)

Huntinfool said:


> That's one of the questions about the supposed exception clause.  Jesus said you've already commited adultery with a woman if you've lusted after her.  If that's the case then ALL of our wives potentially have cause for divorce (just don't tell them!).



Would put me in deep doo fer sure. maybe that's why I don't
have either one of the only two I ever had!


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