# The power of prayer



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

Was just reading about these people driving around hospitals praying. Everyone seems really impressed by it and is talking about how powerful prayer is. I have two questions. First, why the need to actually get in your car and drive to the hospital? Does prayer have a limited range of effectiveness? Second, what can we expect this power of prayer to achieve in real world terms?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2020)

Placebo


----------



## Cmp1 (Mar 30, 2020)

Good Lord,,,,


----------



## Baroque Brass (Mar 30, 2020)

I’ve always wondered why prayer is necessary. Doesn’t an omniscient god already know the needs? Does he need to be convinced? Has he not noticed the needs and it needs to be brought to his attention? What about “it’s all in God’s plan”? Will prayer convince him that his plan was flawed and prayer will change that?


----------



## hopper (Mar 30, 2020)

I


atlashunter said:


> Was just reading about these people driving around hospitals praying. Everyone seems really impressed by it and is talking about how powerful prayer is. I have two questions. First, why the need to actually get in your car and drive to the hospital? Does prayer have a limited range of effectiveness? Second, what can we expect this power of prayer to achieve in real world terms?


 Think it is more of a morality boost to the people in the hospital. Kinda of the people praying way of saying thank you we appreciate what your doing.


----------



## hopper (Mar 30, 2020)

Barouque Brass said:


> I’ve always wondered why prayer is necessary. Doesn’t an omniscient god already know the needs? Does he need to be convinced? Has he not noticed the needs and it needs to be brought to his attention? What about “it’s all in God’s plan”? Will prayer convince him that his plan was flawed and prayer will change that?


The good news is if you dont believe  in God it dont really matter. For people that do believe I think it may help them gain a little hope and feel some comfort.


----------



## j_seph (Mar 30, 2020)

hopper said:


> The good news is if you dont believe  in God it dont really matter. For people that do believe I think it may help them gain a little hope and feel some comfort.


But yet one that does not believe has to come onto a public forum and ask questions why? Why care WHY if you do not believe and never intend to? Why would a believer on here try to explain to someone who has a mindset such as this? They already know the answers but it is just foolishness to them anyhow.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2020)

hopper said:


> I
> 
> Think it is more of a morality boost to the people in the hospital. Kinda of the people praying way of saying thank you we appreciate what your doing.


Agreed!!! I know some medical staff and these prayers can be prayed at home, but it does a Wirks if good to those on the front line when they see the community behind them.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Was just reading about these people driving around hospitals praying. Everyone seems really impressed by it and is talking about how powerful prayer is. I have two questions. First, why the need to actually get in your car and drive to the hospital? Does prayer have a limited range of effectiveness? Second, what can we expect this power of prayer to achieve in real world terms?


You can expect nothing if you don’t believe in it.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

hopper said:


> I
> 
> Think it is more of a morality boost to the people in the hospital. Kinda of the people praying way of saying thank you we appreciate what your doing.



Well it is a nice gesture to say thank you and maybe appealing to people's beliefs makes them feel better. Is that the extent of it? Anyone can say thank you and perhaps even do something useful like providing a meal to improve morale. Does invoking superstition really bring anything to the table beyond that? I suspect those who claim "prayer is powerful" are expecting more than just an improvement in morale from their prayers.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

This reminds me of Daniel Dennett's response to those who prayed on his behalf when he nearly lost his life and was saved by modern medicine.



> These messages from my family and from friends around the world have been literally heart-warming in my case, and I am grateful for the boost in morale (to truly manic heights, I fear!) that it has produced in me. But I am not joking when I say that I have had to forgive my friends who said that they were praying for me. I have resisted the temptation to respond "Thanks, I appreciate it, but did you also sacrifice a goat?" I feel about this the same way I would feel if one of them said "I just paid a voodoo doctor to cast a spell for your health." What a gullible waste of money that could have been spent on more important projects! Don't expect me to be grateful, or even indifferent. I do appreciate the affection and generosity of spirit that motivated you, but wish you had found a more reasonable way of expressing it.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> You can expect nothing if you don’t believe in it.



What do you as a believer expect your prayers to achieve? What if anything can we expect it to change with respect to the health impact of the virus? Is it anything more than a feel good gesture?


----------



## j_seph (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> This reminds me of Daniel Dennett's response to those who prayed on his behalf when he nearly lost his life and was saved by modern medicine.


Look past your nose......................Man made a modern medicine. Who provided the knowledge, the materials, gave the first breathe to the ones who developed the "Modern Medicine". I used to get mad over folks like you and others but have came to the realization that you will believe whatever it is that you wish. Nowadays I just seem to feel sad for folks as yourself.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

j_seph said:


> Look past your nose......................Man made a modern medicine. Who provided the knowledge, the materials, gave the first breathe to the ones who developed the "Modern Medicine". I used to get mad over folks like you and others but have came to the realization that you will believe whatever it is that you wish. Nowadays I just seem to feel sad for folks as yourself.



Men acquired that knowledge and material by their own efforts. If modern medicine were left to the arena of superstitious belief we would still have flagellants going around whipping their own butts to try to appease the deity visiting the plague on them. Perhaps you would be one of them?


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

Maybe it's time for the superstitious to start eating their own cooking for a change. Instead of hijacking the credit of human achievement and passing it on to their deity maybe they should simply rely on divine intervention alone for their knowledge and care. Don't go to a hospital and get put on a ventilator or take man made drugs or listen to what man has learned by looking through a microscope. Say a prayer for god to reveal the nature and cure of this disease to you through divine revelation. Put your faith in him alone to protect and cure you. This is an opportunity for folks to put their faith to the test. That apparently is what people are doing by prayer. I'm just asking what they expect the prayer to achieve? Shouldn't be a difficult question for those who have some expectation that "prayer is powerful". If a doctor gives a person a placebo and tells them it's a powerful drug by what criteria would one expect to see whether he was telling the truth or not?


----------



## The Original Rooster (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Maybe it's time for the superstitious to start eating their own cooking for a change. Instead of hijacking the credit of human achievement and passing it on to their deity maybe they should simply rely on divine intervention alone for their knowledge and care. Don't go to a hospital and get put on a ventilator or take man made drugs or listen to what man has learned by looking through a microscope. Say a prayer for god to reveal the nature and cure of this disease to you through divine revelation. Put your faith in him alone to protect and cure you. This is an opportunity for folks to put their faith to the test. That apparently is what people are doing by prayer. I'm just asking what they expect the prayer to achieve? Shouldn't be a difficult question for those who have some expectation that "prayer is powerful". If a doctor gives a person a placebo and tells them it's a powerful drug by what criteria would one expect to see whether he was telling the truth or not?


atlas, 
Angry, blanket statements like this about religious people are beneath you. I hope you are responding out of anger and don't genuinely feel this way about those of us who do believe.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

RoosterTodd said:


> atlas,
> Angry, blanket statements like this about religious people are beneath you. I hope you are responding out of anger and don't genuinely feel this way about those of us who do believe.



You can dismiss it as anger if you want but it's tiresome to hear the nonsense about how powerful prayer is from people who very clearly show by their actions don't really believe it. Say what you will about the snake handlers but they at least put their money where their mouth is and bet the farm on their faith.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> If a doctor gives a person a placebo and tells them it's a powerful drug by what criteria would one expect to see whether he was telling the truth or not?



This is a question worthy of an answer. If to take Dennett's example of a friend saying they hired a voodoo doctor to cast a spell by what criteria can the efficacy of that measure be put to the test? That the intent of the gesture made the recipient feel nice? Or can a higher bar be set?


----------



## Nicodemus (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> You can dismiss it as anger if you want but it's tiresome to hear the nonsense about how powerful prayer is from people who very clearly show by their actions don't really believe it. Say what you will about the snake handlers but they at least put their money where their mouth is and bet the farm on their faith.




Atlas, I think highly of you, but please don`t ridicule folks over what they believe and you don`t. You`re better than that. You don`t have to  listen to what you consider the "nonsense".


----------



## The Original Rooster (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> You can dismiss it as anger if you want but it's tiresome to hear the nonsense about how powerful prayer is from people who very clearly show by their actions don't really believe it. Say what you will about the snake handlers but they at least put their money where their mouth is and bet the farm on their faith.


I would never dismiss you or your feelings on a subject and I can understand you feeling tiresome at some believers whose actions don't match their words. However, putting myself in harms way expecting God to save me isn't an act of faith, it's an act of pride. God tells us quite a few places in the Bible not to test him out of our own pride and vanity. You may recall I pointed this out to those disappointed in the church cancellations. Plus, God has given us these great, logical (well, sometimes logical) brains to avoid trouble and to figure out ways to remedy that trouble. As you know, many of the best hospitals in the world were founded and are run by many different Christian denominations, Jewish denominations, and other religions for that matter. Those hospitals are committing actions in additions to prayer, so it's not just faith alone. Again, we are taught that prayers are good but if our prayers are sincere, then our actions will follow those prayers. I won't get into snake handlers as I have ZERO experience with them. However, despite the verses in the Bible on handling snakes and drinking poison, I still feel testing God like that is wrong. Anyway, hope this might answer some questions for you.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

RoosterTodd said:


> I would never dismiss you or your feelings on a subject and I can understand you feeling tiresome at some believers whose actions don't match their words. However, putting myself in harms way expecting God to save me isn't an act of faith, it's an act of pride. God tells us quite a few places in the Bible not to test him out of our own pride and vanity. You may recall I pointed this out to those disappointed in the church cancellations. Plus, God has given us these great, logical (well, sometimes logical) brains to avoid trouble and to figure out ways to remedy that trouble. As you know, many of the best hospitals in the world were founded and are run by many different Christian denominations, Jewish denominations, and other religions for that matter. Those hospitals are committing actions in additions to prayer, so it's not just faith alone. Again, we are taught that prayers are good but if our prayers are sincere, then our actions will follow those prayers. I won't get into snake handlers as I have ZERO experience with them. However, despite the verses in the Bible on handling snakes and drinking poison, I still feel testing God like that is wrong. Anyway, hope this might answer some questions for you.



Fair enough. Can we then take this back to the original question? Someone expresses to you some belief which you don't share that they say is a powerful and meaningful way to help the situation. Maybe its the voodoo thing or maybe it's a lucky rabbits foot or maybe it's just some other religion. Whatever it is, they believe it has some useful effect. Yet in actions they follow all the same secular advice others follow because they say to rely entirely on their faith would be an act of pride. The question remains, by what measure should one test the truth of their claims? It seems to me that's a very reasonable question to expect they should be able to answer. And if the best answer is something to the effect that it expresses a good intention or good feeling I don't begrudge them that notion but I do think it puts the claim that it's particularly powerful or effective into doubt.

I don't question the good intent. I do question the effect based on the apparent unwillingness to put the belief to a test where something of value is actually on the line.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

Nicodemus said:


> Atlas, I think highly of you, but please don`t ridicule folks over what they believe and you don`t. You`re better than that. You don`t have to  listen to what you consider the "nonsense".



I apologize if it came off that way. I'm looking for what evidence a believer expects to see that would validate their claims of the power of prayer. I know they mean well. When someone tells me they are praying for me, unless they are obviously being condescending I know they sincerely mean well and I appreciate the intent behind it. A snake handler clearly states what they expect to see as the outcome of their faith. A lot of fellow believers don't join them in that but at least their actions line up with their belief which is more than can be said for a lot of believers.


----------



## Bobby Linton (Mar 30, 2020)

Atlas, I'm not really sure what I belive.  I grew up in the church, but I don't belive most of the dogma anymore.  Sometimes I wonder why I still pray. Maybe I'm just confused, but I still hold my wife's hand and pray ever night before bed.  I think, if nothing else, it focus us on what we feel is important as a family.  Reminds us to be thankful.  And lifts up those we care for even if its just in our own hearts. I cant answer for the folks driving around the hospital but to me, it's an outward expression of caring about others.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> What do you as a believer expect your prayers to achieve? What if anything can we expect it to change with respect to the health impact of the virus? Is it anything more than a feel good gesture?


what I expect through prayer and faith is basically what you’re expecting with hope - this thing to go away. I believe it will. I don’t have any feel good gestures for or against it going away or not.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> You can dismiss it as anger if you want but it's tiresome to hear the nonsense about how powerful prayer is from people who very clearly show by their actions don't really believe it. Say what you will about the snake handlers but they at least put their money where their mouth is and bet the farm on their faith.


Have you ever considered that your parents prayers may have protected you from reaping some the nonsense you’ve sown? You don’t really know if they have or not so don’t knock it just yet. ?


----------



## redwards (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> ....Does prayer have a limited range of effectiveness? Second, what can we expect this power of prayer to achieve in real world terms?


When someone who I have never met calls my home and I do not recognize the number, and I answer the call even though I do not normally answer calls from unknown numbers...and the person on the other end of the call is in Chicago, Il. and thanks me and my wife for our contributions to AWANA, Intl....and then immediately asks if she can pray for any need(s) we may have...and she has no way of knowing that we both are in need of prayer due to a fall that my wife had just been involved in...THEN I CAN UNEQUIVOCALLY STATE THAT PRAYER DOES NOT HAVE ANY LIMITED RANGE OF EFFECTIVENESS, AND THE EFFECTIVENESS OF PRAYER IS ONLY LIMITED BY OUR FAITH IN THE POWER OF IT!


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Have you ever considered that your parents prayers may have protected you from reaping some the nonsense you’ve sown? You don’t really know if they have or not so don’t knock it just yet. ?



Could be but how would you know? What distinguishes such a claim from someone who believes an object has offered them protection? Or any of the numerous superstitious rituals humans have engaged in throughout history on the belief it would somehow improve their lot in life?


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Could be but how would you know? What distinguishes such a claim from someone who believes an object has offered them protection? Or any of the numerous superstitious rituals humans have engaged in throughout history on the belief it would somehow improve their lot in life?


 The fact that neither of us know should be enough to leave it alone and not refer to it as “superstitious” until we can prove it one way or the other. 

For me, I believe it has helped me in every area of my life. When I was away from it, I struggled in every area of my life. When I’m in it, I don’t struggle. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. I won’t argue with you if you think it’s coincidence, that’s just another area that neither of us can prove.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> what I expect through prayer and faith is basically what you’re expecting with hope - this thing to go away. I believe it will. I don’t have any feel good gestures for or against it going away or not.


It will go away. It will get better. It may be worse for some more than others in the meantime.
It is to who or what credit is given for whatever results is what causes me to ask those who will say a higher power is responsible how they can make that claim with accuracy.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> The fact that neither of us know should be enough to leave it alone and not refer to it as “superstitious” until we can prove it one way or the other.
> 
> For me, I believe it has helped me in every area of my life. When I was away from it, I struggled in every area of my life. When I’m in it, I don’t struggle. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. I won’t argue with you if you think it’s coincidence, that’s just another area that neither of us can prove.


It's what can be proven that makes the difference.
"Can't Prove" shouldn't even be mentioned along with something touted as being the Ultimate Truth.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2020)

bullethead said:


> It's what can be proven that makes the difference.
> "Can't Prove" shouldn't even be mentioned along with something touted as being the Ultimate Truth.


And there you are ??


----------



## PopPop (Mar 30, 2020)

I don’t think we came from the primordial mud, but we may end up becoming it.

I do love to fish a buzz bait too though. PTL


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2020)

bullethead said:


> It will go away. It will get better. It may be worse for some more than others in the meantime.
> It is to who or what credit is given for whatever results is what causes me to ask those who will say a higher power is responsible how they can make that claim with accuracy.


For some of the religious world - many years ago (maybe 20) I heard a preacher give what some folks call a prophecy. He said this was revealed to him in a dream, he saw a Chinese woman spraying a red mist on the earth, right at the end of the dream, there was something about Mother’s and Grandmothers.

4 years ago I heard this same preacher in South Alabama preaching a revival, he reminded everyone about that dream and said he finally understands what the Mother’s and Grandmother's means - it’s the women of Zion.

I heard him speak 3 weeks ago - if America would humble itself and begin to pray, the women of Zion begin to pray, the men pray for those women.....

Of course you’re welcome to give credit where you think. I’m sure these folks will remember what they’ve heard about this “prophecy” on 3 separating occasions going back at least 15 years. You’re going to have a long hard road to row to hoe with your “maybes”.....

But for now, if people think prayer helps them, leave them alone.


----------



## gemcgrew (Mar 30, 2020)

j_seph said:


> But yet one that does not believe has to come onto a public forum and ask questions why? Why care WHY if you do not believe and never intend to? Why would a believer on here try to explain to someone who has a mindset such as this? They already know the answers but it is just foolishness to them anyhow.


Their having to is one of the means God uses to heap further condemnation upon them.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2020)

bullethead said:


> It will go away. It will get better. It may be worse for some more than others in the meantime.
> It is to who or what credit is given for whatever results is what causes me to ask those who will say a higher power is responsible how they can make that claim with accuracy.


Just thinking out loud - yes it is to who or what gets the credit that’s always at question. 

I want you to believe in a healing God, but I can’t prove anything to you. 

You want me to believe that the body can just heal itself but both you and doctors scratch your heads and don’t have an answer / clue to the “miraculous”.......it just happened.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> And there you are ??


Checks and Balances


----------



## hopper (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Well it is a nice gesture to say thank you and maybe appealing to people's beliefs makes them feel better. Is that the extent of it? Anyone can say thank you and perhaps even do something useful like providing a meal to improve morale. Does invoking superstition really bring anything to the table beyond that? I suspect those who claim "prayer is powerful" are expecting more than just an improvement in morale from their prayers.


You are absolutely right, anyone can say thank you and provide service and I would suggest all to do so. There are so many in need. As far as the superstitions thing goes I would think the people praying would not agree that it is superstitious. And to what they are expecting to happen from it you should probably go talk to them it would be difficult for me to read there mind.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> For some of the religious world - many years ago (maybe 20) I heard a preacher give what some folks call a prophecy. He said this was revealed to him in a dream, he saw a Chinese woman spraying a red mist on the earth, right at the end of the dream, there was something about Mother’s and Grandmothers.
> 
> 4 years ago I heard this same preacher in South Alabama preaching a revival, he reminded everyone about that dream and said he finally understands what the Mother’s and Grandmother's means - it’s the women of Zion.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Chinese woman spraying a red mist....spot on.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Just thinking out loud - yes it is to who or what gets the credit that’s always at question.
> 
> I want you to believe in a healing God, but I can’t prove anything to you.
> 
> You want me to believe that the body can just heal itself but both you and doctors scratch your heads and don’t have an answer / clue to the “miraculous”.......it just happened.


No, no, no,no,no
The Mighty Oak Stump heals body parts.
Prove Me Wrong


----------



## poohbear (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> You can dismiss it as anger if you want but it's tiresome to hear the nonsense about how powerful prayer is from people who very clearly show by their actions don't really believe it. Say what you will about the snake handlers but they at least put their money where their mouth is and bet the farm on their faith.


Idiot


----------



## Juan De (Mar 30, 2020)

Any of you guys ever herd of Lee Strobel. He was an atheist and after extensive research he concluded God exists. Why don’t you guys follow some of his research and see if you have the same conclusions.


----------



## poohbear (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> I apologize if it came off that way. I'm looking for what evidence a believer expects to see that would validate their claims of the power of prayer. I know they mean well. When someone tells me they are praying for me, unless they are obviously being condescending I know they sincerely mean well and I appreciate the intent behind it. A snake handler clearly states what they expect to see as the outcome of their faith. A lot of fellow believers don't join them in that but at least their actions line up with their belief which is more than can be said for a lot of believers.


Some say how do you believe in this God ? You can't see him, feel him, or touch him. Yes this is true , but personally he has done so much for me answered countless prayers and saved this sinners soul that one day I will sit at the right hand of the almighty to live for eternity,  and I pray that you see the light before you die. It sure is better than the alternative. Because there has to be more than life on this earth. Oh and by the way about not being able to touch God or see him? Think of it this way you can't see the virus either do you believe in it. God Bless my friend


----------



## The Original Rooster (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Fair enough. Can we then take this back to the original question? Someone expresses to you some belief which you don't share that they say is a powerful and meaningful way to help the situation. Maybe its the voodoo thing or maybe it's a lucky rabbits foot or maybe it's just some other religion. Whatever it is, they believe it has some useful effect. Yet in actions they follow all the same secular advice others follow because they say to rely entirely on their faith would be an act of pride. The question remains, by what measure should one test the truth of their claims? It seems to me that's a very reasonable question to expect they should be able to answer. And if the best answer is something to the effect that it expresses a good intention or good feeling I don't begrudge them that notion but I do think it puts the claim that it's particularly powerful or effective into doubt.
> 
> I don't question the good intent. I do question the effect based on the apparent unwillingness to put the belief to a test where something of value is actually on the line.



If you are looking for something of substance to show you regarding prayer that we can physically substantiate, you already know that there's nothing I can provide here. That subject has been discussed on this forum ad nauseum and I won't put you through that. Give me a day or two and I'll get back to you with something though.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Yeah, Chinese woman spraying a red mist....spot on.


Point is, unless you have something more consoling for folks, let them deal with their dilemmas the way that encourages them. Non the less, don’t question their faith, hope or spirituality unless they’re trying to convince you to believe it too. If you ask them, they’re not really trying to convince you if anything, they’re just giving their testimony.

Jehovas Witnesses got us all beat on knocking doors and wanting you to believe them and what they have.

When they bring it to you, that’s a good tine to challenge it. When you just asking around, that’s not - most don’t care if you’re convinced, they will tell you their story if you ask ? if you don’t like the answers, ask different questions.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2020)

bullethead said:


> No, no, no,no,no
> The Mighty Oak Stump heals body parts.
> Prove Me Wrong


If that’s where you’re hanging your hat......?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2020)

Juan De said:


> Any of you guys ever herd of Lee Strobel. He was an atheist and after extensive research he concluded God exists. Why don’t you guys follow some of his research and see if you have the same conclusions.


Did you ever hear of Dan Everett? He went to the jungle to teach tribes about God and the Bible and now doesn't believe in God.
Will you take your own advice?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Point is, unless you have something more consoling for folks, let them deal with their dilemmas the way that encourages them. Non the less, don’t question their faith, hope or spirituality unless they’re trying to convince you to believe it too. If you ask them, they’re not really trying to convince you if anything, they’re just giving their testimony.
> 
> Jehovas Witnesses got us all beat on knocking doors and wanting you to believe them and what they have.
> 
> When they bring it to you, that’s a good tine to challenge it. When you just asking around, that’s not - most don’t care if you’re convinced, they will tell you their story if you ask ? if you don’t like the answers, ask different questions.


Atlas was knocking on the door with his OP...seems as though many answered.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> If that’s where you’re hanging your hat......?


Dare never to disgrace TMOS by hanging anything on it.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> The fact that neither of us know should be enough to leave it alone and not refer to it as “superstitious” until we can prove it one way or the other.
> 
> For me, I believe it has helped me in every area of my life. When I was away from it, I struggled in every area of my life. When I’m in it, I don’t struggle. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. I won’t argue with you if you think it’s coincidence, that’s just another area that neither of us can prove.



The weight of probability rests on my side for a couple reasons. First because of the sheer number of mutually exclusive superstitious beliefs people have held over the course of history. Their number alone makes it unlikely that any particular one just happens to be the true one if in fact any of them are true at all. Secondly, the Bible sets expectations on prayer that in practice fail to be met. At this point one can scarcely even find a believer who will lay claim to those expectations. That in itself says something.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> The weight of probability rests on my side for a couple reasons. First because of the sheer number of mutually exclusive superstitious beliefs people have held over the course of history. Their number alone makes it unlikely that any particular one just happens to be the true one if I’m fact any of them are true at all. Secondly, the Bible sets expectations on prayer that in practice fail to be met. At this point one can scarcely even find a believer who will lay claim to those expectations. That in itself says something.


Why not go with the weight of probability and stop asking the same question?


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Atlas was knocking on the door with his OP...seems as though many answered.


Atlas was fishing again. But, for his OP - the believer expects the outcome of their prayer to be answered.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

RoosterTodd said:


> If you are looking for something of substance to show you regarding prayer that we can physically substantiate, you already know that there's nothing I can provide here. That subject has been discussed on this forum ad nauseum and I won't put you through that. Give me a day or two and I'll get back to you with something though.



Why not? Would the same exemption from real world results be made for the power of Jesus prayers?


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Why not go with the weight of probability and stop asking the same question?



Because I want to know what goes on in the heads of people who buy into this. If someone wants to engage in wishful thinking that’s fine but let’s stop with the pretense that it’s actually having some supernatural impact on the path of this disease.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Atlas was fishing again. But, for his OP - the believer expects the outcome of their prayer to be answered.


Yes. No. Maybe and Wait are all acceptable answers for a believer.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Atlas was fishing again. But, for his OP - the believer expects the outcome of their prayer to be answered.


Fishing or wanting to discuss something on his mind with like minded individuals or anyone else that can give a detailed explanation???


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Atlas was knocking on the door with his OP...seems as though many answered.



Lots of responses here but still the very simple question of how this can be distinguished from other superstitions remains unanswered. Really if Jesus were here is this the answer we should expect? That it makes people feel good or we can’t know for sure or we shouldn’t put faith to the test? Not the answer we should expect if the Bible is true. Jesus said to believe him on his works. He said those who believe in him would be able to perform the same miracles and greater ones than he did. I’m asking for what the expectation should be as far as results of prayer. Set the expectation and then show me. That’s a small ask of people who declare prayer powerful. So far I’m underwhelmed by the response.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2020)

And by the way if a mod sees this... I don’t care if people call me names on here but I doubt it would be tolerated going in the other direction.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Because I want to know what goes on in the heads of people who buy into this. If someone wants to engage in wishful thinking that’s fine but let’s stop with the pretense that it’s actually having some supernatural impact on the path of this disease.


The only problem is other than your disdain for religion, you don’t know yourself.,


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Fishing or wanting to discuss something on his mind with like minded individuals or anyone else that can give a detailed explanation???


If that were case, it’s been blown the few times he left himself out of the box lol


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Lots of responses here but still the very simple question of how this can be distinguished from other superstitions remains unanswered. Really if Jesus were here is this the answer we should expect? That it makes people feel good or we can’t know for sure or we shouldn’t put faith to the test? Not the answer we should expect if the Bible is true. Jesus said to believe him on his works. He said those who believe in him would be able to perform the same miracles and greater ones than he did. I’m asking for what the expectation should be as far as results of prayer. Set the expectation and then show me. That’s a small ask of people who declare prayer powerful. So far I’m underwhelmed by the response.


Put yourself in the shoes of a believer, you couldn't address it directly either and would have to make excuses and tap dance around the facts as well.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 30, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> If that were case, it’s been blown the few times he left himself out of the box lol


For example.....


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Put yourself in the shoes of a believer, you couldn't address it directly either and would have to make excuses and tap dance around the facts as well.



If I genuinely believed what the scripture says about prayer I would expect results and I would be surprised if I didn’t get them. I would be looking for an explanation if my faith failed to produce the results.


----------



## Kev (Mar 31, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> If I genuinely believed what the scripture says about prayer I would expect results and I would be surprised if I didn’t get them. I would be looking for an explanation if my faith failed to produce the results.


Your mind is made up and you have it all figured out.


----------



## StriperAddict (Mar 31, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> If I genuinely believed what the scripture says about prayer I would expect results and I would be surprised if I didn’t get them. I would be looking for an explanation if my faith failed to produce the results.


Well for one, prayer changes us. Just one aspect of it I have highly esteemed by patient observation.  It doesn't always change every circumstance (we'd become gods if so) but gives us the perspective of Who's within, loving us, comforting us during the storm. Christ was in the storm tossed ship trusting His Father before calming the seas.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> If I genuinely believed what the scripture says about prayer I would expect results and I would be surprised if I didn’t get them. I would be looking for an explanation if my faith failed to produce the results.


I think you are looking at it way too "scientifically" (for lack of a better word).
For Christians, regardless of the outcome, the explenation is built right into the cake that covers any/all scenarios..


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2020)

poohbear said:


> Some say how do you believe in this God ? You can't see him, feel him, or touch him. Yes this is true , but personally he has done so much for me answered countless prayers and saved this sinners soul that one day I will sit at the right hand of the almighty to live for eternity,  and I pray that you see the light before you die. It sure is better than the alternative. Because there has to be more than life on this earth. Oh and by the way about not being able to touch God or see him? Think of it this way you can't see the virus either do you believe in it. God Bless my friend





> God Bless my friend


On one hand you call him an idiot and on the other hand …...
That's rich


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2020)

StriperAddict said:


> Well for one, prayer changes us. Just one aspect of it I have highly esteemed by patient observation.  It doesn't always change every circumstance (we'd become gods if so) but gives us the perspective of Who's within, loving us, comforting us during the storm. Christ was in the storm tossed ship trusting His Father before calming the seas.


How would people "become gods" if they are praying for a god to step and do something?  In the Christian religion their god instructs his followers to pray and those prayers WILL be answered.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> If I genuinely believed what the scripture says about prayer I would expect results and I would be surprised if I didn’t get them. I would be looking for an explanation if my faith failed to produce the results.


Much of what you say is why many non believers got to be non believers.  The believers are good at making excuses as to why what is told in their bible does not work IRL.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> I think you are looking at it way too "scientifically" (for lack of a better word).
> For Christians, regardless of the outcome, the explenation is built right into the cake that covers any/all scenarios..



Scripture sets a higher expectation. The question of what differentiates this from the any other superstition remains unanswered. That would bother me if I was a believer. I suppose it’s largely why I’m not one.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2020)

StriperAddict said:


> Well for one, prayer changes us. Just one aspect of it I have highly esteemed by patient observation.  It doesn't always change every circumstance (we'd become gods if so) but gives us the perspective of Who's within, loving us, comforting us during the storm. Christ was in the storm tossed ship trusting His Father before calming the seas.



An atheist would challenge the assertion that it ever results in a supernatural change of circumstances. If we look at the matter honestly we see a lot of confirmation bias when it comes to prayer. That said, I’m sure it can have an impact on the psychology of a person. I’ve heard similar testimony from a man who converted to Buddhism and told me of the power of meditating and reciting his chants.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Scripture sets a higher expectation. The question of what differentiates this from the any other superstition remains unanswered. That would bother me if I was a believer. I suppose it’s largely why I’m not one.


Im just spitballing here, but Im guessing that ^ would be the #1 common personality trait of former/recovering believers. We fall into that little subset where it didn't just bother us, but it bothered us ALOT.
Being human, Im sure most Christians experience doubt or "bother" at some time when it comes to their faith. The difference in the way we are wired determines whether its just a momentary speed bump or leads to where "we" are.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 31, 2020)

bullethead said:


> For example.....


Start with #17 maybe???


----------



## poohbear (Mar 31, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> On one hand you call him an idiot and on the other hand …...
> That's rich


Yeah I guess I shouldn't have made the first comment but it chaps my hide when someone talks down on the almighty, but I guess everyone has to learn on their own. Sorry about that


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Start with #17 maybe???


Post #17
"You can dismiss it as anger if you want but it's tiresome to hear the nonsense about how powerful prayer is from people who very clearly show by their actions don't really believe it. Say what you will about the snake handlers but they at least put their money where their mouth is and bet the farm on their faith."

I am still not seeing your point with that example


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2020)

poohbear said:


> Yeah I guess I shouldn't have made the first comment but it chaps my hide when someone talks down on the almighty, but I guess everyone has to learn on their own. Sorry about that


God/religion is probably the most difficult subject to talk about openly and honestly when people have differing views.
It can definitely get the blood pressure up


----------



## stringmusic (Mar 31, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Scripture sets a higher expectation. The question of what differentiates this from the any other superstition remains unanswered. That would bother me if I was a believer. I suppose it’s largely why I’m not one.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2020)

stringmusic said:


>


Something 'ol Ravioli said inspired a thought -
"Where there is sin, there is need for a Savior".
"Where there is a Savior, there is the possibility of redemption"
"That in a nutshell is the entire Gospel story".

So the con job was "We are going to take certain human behaviors, not all the bad ones, just the ones we really dont like, and we'll label them as "sins".
So now that we got the "sins", surely we need a Savior.
Because a Savior can provide redemption from the human behavior, I mean sins, that we just decided we really don't like".
Talk about going around in a circle


----------



## Juan De (Mar 31, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Did you ever hear of Dan Everett? He went to the jungle to teach tribes about God and the Bible and now doesn't believe in God.
> Will you take your own advice?


I have never herd of him, but I tell you what if you will read a book I pick written by Lee Strobel. I will read one by  him refuting God. I’ll


----------



## Juan De (Mar 31, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Was just reading about these people driving around hospitals praying. Everyone seems really impressed by it and is talking about how powerful prayer is. I have two questions. First, why the need to actually get in your car and drive to the hospital? Does prayer have a limited range of effectiveness? Second, what can we expect this power of prayer to achieve in real world terms?


In the  New Testament the Bible speaks of the laying of hands on an individual that has been called to a form of service for God or has had an illness . That is most likely the reason for people visiting the hospitals and praying.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2020)

Juan De said:


> In the  New Testament the Bible speaks of the laying of hands on an individual that has been called to a form of service for God or has had an illness . That is most likely the reason for people visiting the hospitals and praying.



I can only imagine what the result of that would be if they were actually going in the hospitals and putting their hands on the patients. As far as I’m aware they are praying from their cars in the parking lot.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2020)

Juan De said:


> I have never herd of him, but I tell you what if you will read a book I pick written by Lee Strobel. I will read one by  him refuting God. I’ll


I am very familiar with Lee Stobel.
I try to be well informed about the things discussed in here with both point and counterpoint.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 31, 2020)

Juan De said:


> I have never herd of him, but I tell you what if you will read a book I pick written by Lee Strobel. I will read one by  him refuting God. I’ll


This breaks down what Strobel is all about and his tactics.
https://www.alternet.org/2019/03/ho...ee-strobel-fabricated-his-best-selling-story/


----------



## ky55 (Mar 31, 2020)

bullethead said:


> This breaks down what Strobel is all about and his tactics.
> https://www.alternet.org/2019/03/ho...ee-strobel-fabricated-his-best-selling-story/



Fabrication and falsification is all they have. 

*


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 1, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Fishing or wanting to discuss something on his mind with like minded individuals or anyone else that can give a detailed explanation???



FISHING


Beginning with an honest question like this - "what can we expect this power of prayer to achieve in real world terms?" and followed up with this is FISHING - "You can dismiss it as anger if you want but it's tiresome to hear the nonsense about how powerful prayer"

Who willingly asks questions about a topic that is "tiresome to hear the nonsense"? The normal approach that most people take with something they are tired of hearing about is to leave it alone - they certainly don't ask to hear the nonsense again. This thread is nothing but an avenue to give those of "like minded" an opportunity to display their disdain for religion. Nothing more than fishing.  

Nonsense or not, the folks that are praying will be praying for you, and atlas, too. Have fun, stay safe, praying for you and your family.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> FISHING
> 
> 
> Beginning with an honest question like this - "what can we expect this power of prayer to achieve in real world terms?" and followed up with this is FISHING - "You can dismiss it as anger if you want but it's tiresome to hear the nonsense about how powerful prayer"
> ...


I would say a person looking for nonsensical answers asks that type of question. 
Be well.


----------



## Juan De (Apr 1, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I am very familiar with Lee Stobel.
> I try to be well informed about the things discussed in here with both point and counterpoint.


Then out of curiosity, why debate? Why continue to spend the effort. You have made it clear that the Bible isn’t of regard to you. Why not concentrate on your favorite hobby?  You stated be well informed so I would assume that means you have read the entire Bible then?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 1, 2020)

Juan De said:


> Then out of curiosity, why debate? Why continue to spend the effort. You have made it clear that the Bible isn’t of regard to you. Why not concentrate on your favorite hobby?  You stated be well informed so I would assume that means you have read the entire Bible then?


I have read the bible a few times.
Referenced the bible thousands.

Not sure if you are aware,  but the AAA forum IS the place to discuss such things among Atheists and Agnostics along with Apologetics. 
Why are you "here"?


----------



## Juan De (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I have read the bible a few times.
> Referenced the bible thousands.
> 
> Not sure if you are aware,  but the AAA forum IS the place to discuss such things among Atheists and Agnostics along with Apologetics.
> Why are you "here"?


Yes, I’m aware of the purpose of the forum is. I’m here because I care about people and what will happen if people die without a relationship with Christ, Christ changed my life. My question was to you directly. Why do “You” want to continuously debate this topic? Because if I had’t felt led by God to come here I wouldn’t be. If I had the same view as you, my energy would be devoted to a hunting or fishing activity.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> FISHING
> 
> 
> Beginning with an honest question like this - "what can we expect this power of prayer to achieve in real world terms?" and followed up with this is FISHING - "You can dismiss it as anger if you want but it's tiresome to hear the nonsense about how powerful prayer"
> ...





> Nonsense or not, the folks that are praying will be praying for you, and atlas, too.


Hey! What about me??!!
I don't have a problem with the folks that are praying saying some nonsensical prayers for me.
Just in case


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 2, 2020)

Juan De said:


> Yes, I’m aware of the purpose of the forum is. I’m here because I care about people and what will happen if people die without a relationship with Christ, Christ changed my life. My question was to you directly. Why do “You” want to continuously debate this topic? Because if I had’t felt led by God to come here I wouldn’t be. If I had the same view as you, my energy would be devoted to a hunting or fishing activity.


To get right down to the bone.... obviously its a topic that remains important to us for a number of different reasons.


> Because if I had’t felt led by God to come here I wouldn’t be.


With all due respect (and I mean that sincerely),
We've heard that ^ a number of times. They generally dont last long in here. God seems to lead them away faster than he led them in.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 2, 2020)

Whether or not you believe that prayer works by literally invoking a higher power to directly intercede in your behalf, I think most of us would agree that positive thoughts and energy, hope, and having something to believe in that brings you comfort are generally good things; and can produce positive results in their own right.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 2, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> Whether or not you believe that prayer works by literally invoking a higher power to directly intercede in your behalf, I think most of us would agree that positive thoughts and energy, hope, and having something to believe in that brings you comfort are generally good things; and can produce positive results in their own right.


Absolutely and an important point.
In general, or at least it seems to me, prayer often inspires action by the individual.
A super simplified example -
A Christian may pray for a happy family.
9 times out of 10 it doesn't just end there.
They work hard to make that prayer come true and therefore the odds go way up of it coming true.
Prayer can be a self fulfilling thing.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Juan De said:


> Yes, I’m aware of the purpose of the forum is. I’m here because I care about people and what will happen if people die without a relationship with Christ, Christ changed my life. My question was to you directly. Why do “You” want to continuously debate this topic? Because if I had’t felt led by God to come here I wouldn’t be. If I had the same view as you, my energy would be devoted to a hunting or fishing activity.


I am here to see if anyone can provide answers with evidence that backs up their claims and assertions. I am open to having my mind changed but I am not easily swayed by using the bible to back up the bible. I like to discuss what makes the religious tick and I also have no problem discussing,  expressing  or listening to others express their likes and disdain for god(s) and religion.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> Hey! What about me??!!
> I don't have a problem with the folks that are praying saying some nonsensical prayers for me.
> Just in case


Lol praying for you, too!!!


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Juan De said:


> Yes, I’m aware of the purpose of the forum is. I’m here because I care about people and what will happen if people die without a relationship with Christ, Christ changed my life. My question was to you directly. Why do “You” want to continuously debate this topic? Because if I had’t felt led by God to come here I wouldn’t be. If I had the same view as you, my energy would be devoted to a hunting or fishing activity.


So, what WILL happen to people who die without a relationship with Christ and, how do you know what will happen?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> To get right down to the bone.... obviously its a topic that remains important to us for a number of different reasons.
> 
> With all due respect (and I mean that sincerely),
> We've heard that ^ a number of times. They generally dont last long in here. God seems to lead them away faster than he led them in.


In all fairness, being felt led to tell is different than a debate. Actually, our job isn’t to debate.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> In all fairness, being felt led to tell is different than a debate. Actually, our job isn’t to debate.


If not any of the AAA's then what and why here?
Apologetics
*1. *The branch of theology that is concerned with defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines.
*2. *Formal argumentation in defense of something, such as a position or system.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> If not any of the AAA's then what and why here?
> Apologetics
> *1. *The branch of theology that is concerned with defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines.
> *2. *Formal argumentation in defense of something, such as a position or system.


But. we are actually called to be witnesses, not apologetics.

You feel led to go and tell. But when your message falls on deaf ears, move on. That’s why you’ll see “apologetics” moving through here and on to somewhere else. 

One plants, one waters.......


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I would say a person looking for nonsensical answers asks that type of question.
> Be well.


And that’s cool until the person looking for nonsensical answers finds those nonsensical answers tiresome, over and over. Then I have to question either their motives, intellect, comprehension, or all three.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> And that’s cool until the person looking for nonsensical answers finds those nonsensical answers tiresome, over and over. Then I have to question either their motives, intellect, comprehension, or all three.


I see it as looking for someone who can explain their answers more clearly while including facts and evidence to back up the explanations rather than the same old guys saying the same old things which amount to nothing more than claims, assertions and excuses as to why none of it holds true when questioned and put to the test. Maybe someone new, maybe a veteran who has been able to add new information instead of the tired nonsensical answers.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> But. we are actually called to be witnesses, not apologetics.
> 
> You feel led to go and tell. But when your message falls on deaf ears, move on. That’s why you’ll see “apologetics” moving through here and on to somewhere else.
> 
> One plants, one waters.......


Very, VERY few people with Apologetic skills have ever been here.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Very, VERY few people with Apologetic skills have ever been here.


There’s a reason for that. Most don’t focus on apologetics at all. Most actually feel convicted of it - remember, we are called to witness.

Lack of apologetic skills, giving you testable information or, inability to answer your questions in the manner you deem acceptable doesn’t negate God / prayer in any fashion.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I see it as looking for someone who can explain their answers more clearly while including facts and evidence to back up the explanations rather than the same old guys saying the same old things which amount to nothing more than claims, assertions and excuses as to why none of it holds true when questioned and put to the test. Maybe someone new, maybe a veteran who has been able to add new information instead of the tired nonsensical answers.


I can agree with that view. The only problem is “evidence”.

Even with tangible evidence, there will always be those that need more.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> There’s a reason for that. Most don’t focus on apologetics at all. Most actually feel convicted of it - remember, we are called to witness.
> 
> Lack of apologetic skills, giving you testable information or, inability to answer your questions in the manner you deem acceptable doesn’t negate God / prayer in any fashion.


Regarding #1
Then why come to an Apologetics forum and make excuses for not being an apologist?

#2
It ABSOLUTELY does!
Lacking all of those absolutely gives the impression that No God Whatsoever is involved.
If a Christian is commanded by a God to go out and preach to gain followers...literally go and spread and word....would that god send people who lack the capabilities to do so either because of personal ability and or lack of actual evidence that is unquestionable or indisputable?  Why send THAT person with no ability to answer without the abilities to provide evidence?
Both are examples of excuses that a human would give to try to make someone else believe something that is not true.
You are telling me the equivalent of a General sending untrained troops without a weapon or ammunition to conquer a region.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> I can agree with that view. The only problem is “evidence”.
> 
> Even with tangible evidence, there will always be those that need more.


In your opinion would a God KNOW exactly what evidence it would take to change a persons mind?
In your opinion would a god send someone to do that job who is unqualified to do it?
In your opinion would a god provide the exact information necessary for the task at hand or allow for vague excuses that are suspect as evidence?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Regarding #1
> Then why come to an Apologetics forum and make excuses for not being an apologist?
> 
> #2
> ...


#1 no excuses made. Just saying that apologetics is a man made thing. We witness, we will discuss, we will debate to an extent. But when it cones to spinning wheels with a few AA’s that’s already predetermined their thoughts, it’s pointless to keep having the same discussion. Get us some new atheists. The AA’s think that the “rules of evidence” are controlled by them only. They’re not the benchmark. 
#2 you’re entitled to your impression.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> In your opinion would a God KNOW exactly what evidence it would take to change a persons mind?
> In your opinion would a god send someone to do that job who is unqualified to do it?
> In your opinion would a god provide the exact information necessary for the task at hand or allow for vague excuses that are suspect as evidence?


In my opinion, he knows. You’re evidence of people that he tells us about in the Bible 
Seriously, and I will play along - IF there  is a deity out there, you honestly think YOU”RE going to lay out the rules of evidence that he must abide by in order to win you??


----------



## bullgator (Apr 2, 2020)

Nobody on this earth really knows, ........and that’s why it’s called FAITH.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> #1 no excuses made. Just saying that apologetics is a man made thing. We witness, we will discuss, we will debate to an extent. But when it cones to spinning wheels with a few AA’s that’s already predetermined their thoughts, it’s pointless to keep having the same discussion. Get us some new atheists. The AA’s think that the “rules of evidence” are controlled by them only. They’re not the benchmark.
> #2 you’re entitled to your impression.


Apologetics is a man made thing
....??
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear" (1 Peter 3:15).

“faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17)

"18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Matthew 28:18–20

Spotlite,  you should know more about the religion that you pretend to speak for.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> In my opinion, he knows. You’re evidence of people that he tells us about in the Bible
> Seriously, and I will play along - IF there  is a deity out there, you honestly think YOU”RE going to lay out the rules of evidence that he must abide by in order to win you??



I don't lay out the rules of evidence. There is either sufficient evidence or there is not. If your god is unable to provide sufficient evidence then it is not worthy of my acknowledgment let alone worship. Limited capabilities negates any god claims.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Apologetics is a man made thing
> ....??
> "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear" (1 Peter 3:15).
> 
> ...


Dust your feet ....?

(It’s important to use the proper version - it’s give an answer, not defense)
We can’t help it that you don’t line the answers given.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I don't lay out the rules of evidence. There is either sufficient evidence or there is not. If your god is unable to provide sufficient evidence then it is not worthy of my acknowledgment let alone worship. Limited capabilities negates any god claims.


You sound convincing. That’s a good enough reason that you should be enjoying the outdoors instead of constantly searching to see if you’ve  overlooked anything.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Dust your feet ....?
> 
> (It’s important to use the proper version - it’s give an answer, but defense)


Whats a good religious book without contradictions?
Tim: 
Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Whats a good religious book without contradictions?
> Tim:
> Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.


That has nothing to do with debating??

I can tell you that you’re wrong (rebuke, etc) and not debate you. See - you’re just wrong.

What one considers a contradiction, others see as lack of understanding.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> You sound convincing. That’s a good enough reason that you should be enjoying the outdoors instead of constantly searching to see if you’ve  overlooked anything.


I can Multi Task


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I can Multi Task


I know you can. You need two books to compare my one lol ?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> That has nothing to do with debating??
> 
> I can tell you that you’re wrong (rebuke, etc) and not debate you. See - you’re just wrong.
> 
> What one considers a contradiction, others see as lack of understanding.


It has everything to do with your Dust your feet comment.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Dust your feet ....?
> 
> (It’s important to use the proper version - it’s give an answer, not defense)
> We can’t help it that you don’t line the answers given.


If the answers given were truthful, it would not matter whether or not I like them, they would be without refute, which they are not and why I do not like them...


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> I know you can. You need two books to compare my one lol ?


TP is in short supply, I am resourceful with certain books.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> If the answers given were truthful, it would not matter whether or not I like them, they would be without refute, which they are not and why I do not like them...


True statement bullet. Now, regardless if the Bible is true or false, if you’ve actually spent much time studying it from cover to cover - then you’d know how it works. You’d know that the God of that story is the only one that can convince you of himself. To keep searching tells me that you’re not sure if it’s real or not, all I’m asking you to do is not to discard it until you know for sure. 

Questions are ok, but when the questions go directly against how the Bible works, it sends a signal that the one asking hadn’t studied what he’s debunking. Or, he’d know not to be asking those things. Reminds me of the kid in shop class that supposedly knew everything about tractors - he asked where do you keep the tires for the dozier.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> It has everything to do with your Dust your feet comment.


Dust your feet and move on. That’s saying don’t debate. Be ready to give an answer means just that. Give an answer, if they don’t believe you, they don’t believe you.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> True statement bullet. Now, regardless if the Bible is true or false, if you’ve actually spent much time studying it from cover to cover - then you’d know how it works. You’d know that the God of that story is the only one that can convince you of himself. To keep searching tells me that you’re not sure if it’s real or not, all I’m asking you to do is not to discard it until you know for sure.
> 
> Questions are ok, but when the questions go directly against how the Bible works, it sends a signal that the one asking hadn’t studied what he’s debunking. Or, he’d know not to be asking those things. Reminds me of the kid in shop class that supposedly knew everything about tractors - he asked where do you keep the tires for the dozier.


You as much as anyone should know that a million believers will have a million interpretations on how the bible "works", what the bible means and how the bible is interpreted.  You are being dishonest to assume that you somehow understand it better than me or anyone else or that I should understand it as you do if I studied it from cover to cover.

You seem to be under the assumption that you know how the Bible works and anyone that does not see it as you do is lacking in understanding...that is probably why you are unable to give the necessary convincing answers and instead make these excuses.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Dust your feet and move on. That’s saying don’t debate. Be ready to give an answer means just that. Give an answer, if they don’t believe you, they don’t believe you.


That Tim again...
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> You as much as anyone should know that a million believers will a million interpretations on how the bible "works", what the bible means and how the bible is interpreted.  You are being dishonest to assume that you somehow understand it better than me or anyone else or that I should understand it as you do if I studied it from cover to cover.
> 
> You seem to be under the assumption that you know how the Bible works and anyone that does not see it as you do is lacking in understanding...that is probably why you are unable to give the necessary convincing answers and instead make these excuses.


Trust me, if I could just share with you what I have, I would in a heart beat. My own wife thinks just like you so don’t think I’m just boasting about what little I do know, or think I know.

Thinking I have it figured out is the furthest thing from my thoughts.

However, I do know that I’ve personally experienced some of it as written. And it’s in those few things that I can tell you that you’re wrong. I can only hope and believe the rest of it is true.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> That Tim again...
> "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."


Again bullet, none of that is considered debating / apologetic.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Again bullet, none of that is considered debating / apologetic.


We have moved past the debate earlier and it moved towards the verses that fit the current path.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Trust me, if I could just share with you what I have, I would in a heart beat. My own wife thinks just like you so don’t think I’m just boasting about what little I do know, or think I know.
> 
> Thinking I have it figured out is the furthest thing from my thoughts.
> 
> However, I do know that I’ve personally experienced some of it as written. And it’s in those few things that I can tell you that you’re wrong. I can only hope and believe the rest of it is true.


If you wanted to read 3 other books that portray 3 other religions you would also be able to connect some things that have happened to you personally with what those books said would,could or should happen as written.
If one religion was absolutely the truth then only those within that religion would reap its exclusive benefits. In reality, it just doesn't work that way and the reason why there are different religions with different followers who all make similar boasts, claims and assertions.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> We have moved past the debate earlier and it moved towards the verses that fit the current path.


Go back to Acts and let’s start over. But read 2 Timothy 2 first......


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Go back to Acts and let’s start over. But read 2 Timothy 2 first......


Are you arguing with other Christians who understand the flow, the stories, the Word of God in the bible????
Or don't they get it like you do????
https://crossexamined.org/19-essential-bible-verses-and-passages-on-apologetics/
https://www.openbible.info/topics/apologetics


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Are you arguing with other Christians who understand the flow, the stories, the Word of God in the bible????
> Or don't they get it like you do????
> https://crossexamined.org/19-essential-bible-verses-and-passages-on-apologetics/
> https://www.openbible.info/topics/apologetics


I argue with no one. I can disagree without arguing....

And because I disagree, I don’t automatically assume I’m right. As long as I’m alive, there is room to learn more.

There are tons of folks that support apologetics in a sense of debating, arguing. And there are tons that don’t. For me, it’s not profitable.

One key thing to add - David Koresh had those that believed his “theology”. You’d label him as a Christian, a follower of Christ, why?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 2, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> I argue with no one. I can disagree without arguing....
> 
> And because I disagree, I don’t automatically assume I’m right. As long as I’m alive, there is room to learn more.
> 
> ...


All he had to do was accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior. 
But how is that a key thing?
Christianity has 40,000+ denominations.
What keeps them lumped together as Christians?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 2, 2020)

bullethead said:


> All he had to do was accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior.
> But how is that a key thing?
> Christianity has 40,000+ denominations.
> What keeps them lumped together as Christians?


It’s a key thing because you’d argue that he used the Bible and therefore he represented Christianity. And. any links you find out there that support your argument represents Christianity. And, all 40,000 + denominations are not Christianity.,


----------



## Juan De (Apr 2, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> To get right down to the bone.... obviously its a topic that remains important to us for a number of different reasons.
> 
> With all due respect (and I mean that sincerely),
> We've heard that ^ a number of times. They generally dont last long in here. God seems to lead them away faster than he led them in.


I appreciate your sincerity. And I can’t say why various people come and go here. I personally don’t know anyone else on the GON forum. I will however say I can theorize based on scripture why people come and go. In John chapter 3 it states how one that is with the spirit is like the wind. In Luke chapter 10 the Bible speaks of individuals which go to a town a spread the gospel and if it is not received to shake the dust from your feet and be on your way. Christian keep coming to engage those in this forum, because we know what will happen. I’m not one that loves to debate. I know that the biggest question that comes up is proof or a sign. The Bible states that no sign will be given. I thought about this a long time and wished it wasn’t the case. Then I had it laid on me this thought one night. If love is forced it isn’t love. Say that the Ark of the Covenant was found and it couldn’t be declared fake, then we wouldn’t have a choice. We would be slaves and would have to follow God. The Bible refers to the church as the bride of Christ. I want my wife to love me because she chooses to and not because she has to. Once I thought about this dynamic it made since why there would be no sign given. I say this because I really care and don’t want anyone to suffer in the end. God saved me Walt and to kinda reference the movie Pure Country I’m the white spot on chicken poop on my best day.


----------



## Juan De (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I am here to see if anyone can provide answers with evidence that backs up their claims and assertions. I am open to having my mind changed but I am not easily swayed by using the bible to back up the bible. I like to discuss what makes the religious tick and I also have no problem discussing,  expressing  or listening to others express their likes and disdain for god(s) and religion.


Besides the Bible I don’t have anything new to tell you except my story. From what little we have discussed I can see you do your homework so to speak. My story is this I have done some horrible things in my time, hurt people in many different ways, to some it up I have not loved my neighbor as myself For most of my life. I have survived to many things in my few years on this earth for life to be just a chance.  I have actually been to many of the locations mentioned in the Bible. Opposition to Christianity has been around for a long long time. I can’t remember the individuals name but it’s documented (outside of the Bible) that he defaced various locations mentioned in the Bible in an attempt destroy the Christian faith but only succeed in marking them. The Bible refers to the church as the bride of Christ. In a marriage, a man and a woman chose to love each other. If a choice didn’t exist could you call it love. It would be forced and the church couldn’t be equal to a Bride. Those in Christ are referred to as friend and brother throughout the Bible, other dynamics which couldn’t exist if it wasn’t a choice. God wants us regardless of what we have done. Romans 8 refers to it as an adoption. The only thing I can further say is when I confessed my sins and accepted Christ I became free.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> It’s a key thing because you’d argue that he used the Bible and therefore he represented Christianity. And. any links you find out there that support your argument represents Christianity. And, all 40,000 + denominations are not Christianity.,


My answer was:
"All he had to do was accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior"
And then you go on to tell me What I'd Argue which is that he used the bible and therefore he represented Christianity...which I never said.
YOU changed the goal posts  from your initial question which was:
"One key thing to add - David Koresh had those that believed his “theology”. You’d label him as a Christian, a follower of Christ, why?"
And again my answer was:
"All he had to do was accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior"


All 40,000 denominations are Christians.
YOU switched the word to Christianity after I answered you in a dishonest attempt to to make your point look better.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

Juan De said:


> Besides the Bible I don’t have anything new to tell you except my story. From what little we have discussed I can see you do your homework so to speak. My story is this I have done some horrible things in my time, hurt people in many different ways, to some it up I have not loved my neighbor as myself For most of my life. I have survived to many things in my few years on this earth for life to be just a chance.  I have actually been to many of the locations mentioned in the Bible. Opposition to Christianity has been around for a long long time. I can’t remember the individuals name but it’s documented (outside of the Bible) that he defaced various locations mentioned in the Bible in an attempt destroy the Christian faith but only succeed in marking them. The Bible refers to the church as the bride of Christ. In a marriage, a man and a woman chose to love each other. If a choice didn’t exist could you call it love. It would be forced and the church couldn’t be equal to a Bride. Those in Christ are referred to as friend and brother throughout the Bible, other dynamics which couldn’t exist if it wasn’t a choice. God wants us regardless of what we have done. Romans 8 refers to it as an adoption. The only thing I can further say is when I confessed my sins and accepted Christ I became free.


Listen, in that same bible it tells us that god wants SOME of us and has made others to never know him.
The bible is quite the collection of contradictions. It tells of Free Will in one verse and of Predetermined in another. Believers use whatever fits.

You might feel free but you have no idea what a god wants unless you talk to god and he answers you.
If so, what does god's voice sound like?
What language does he use?
Where do you hold your conversations?
Ask him what my favorite pets name is, as god surely he will know, right?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> My answer was:
> "All he had to do was accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior"
> And then you go on to tell me What I'd Argue which is that he used the bible and therefore he represented Christianity...which I never said.
> YOU changed the goal posts  from your initial question which was:
> ...


The goal post didn’t change, I just closed a gate on one of your many cow trails -  we’ve had this discussion a million times. Your problem is everything is religion because they read a Bible. If the Bible / God were true, then everyone would agree. You simply fail to acknowledge the Bible itself when it tells you there’ll be many that claim. Christianity and Christian is the same....no switch up there.

The point is still the same - there is a God, there are those that claim, there those that got it wrong such as David Koresh, there are those that get it right. Because of that mix, you’re confused and don’t know which way to go because your too analytic and overthink and convince yourself that there just can’t be a God because man is so stupid with his free will that he can jack up things and make a mess out of something so simple.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> The goal post didn’t change, I just closed a gate on one of your many cow trails -  we’ve had this discussion a million times.


You followed your own trail Spotlite and totally ignored the answer I gave.

Now here is your chance to answer my reply.

Is a Christian someone who accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior?



Spotlite said:


> Your problem is everything is religion because they read a Bible.


My "problem" is that I must use the contents of what is contained in religious books because the religious people use it as proof of itself and it's contents are unique.
It is not a problem for me to point out neither is true.



Spotlite said:


> If the Bible / God were true, then everyone would agree. You simply fail to acknowledge the Bible itself when it tells you there’ll be many that claim. Christianity and Christian is the same....no switch up there.


Why would I acknowledge and believe a book that is full of errors, inconsistencies, and inaccuracies?



Spotlite said:


> The point is still the same - there is a God,


Assertive claim yet to be proven


Spotlite said:


> there are those that claim, there those that got it wrong such as David Koresh, there are those that get it right.


So give us a quick lesson on your knowledge, with provable examples, of What EXACTLY Koresh believed and how/why what he thought in his head was wrong.


Spotlite said:


> Because of that mix, you’re confused and don’t know which way to go because your too analytic and overthink and convince yourself that there just can’t be a God because man is so stupid with his free will that he can jack up things and make a mess out of something so simple.


I address the personal interpretations set in front of me. If it seems all over the place it is because every individual's claims on what they KNOW to be true differs from the next.

What you have going on here is that you are trying to combine my answers to you with answers to others where as I am addressing them individually as needed depending upon which unprovable claim or assertion is set in front of me.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> If you wanted to read 3 other books that portray 3 other religions you would also be able to connect some things that have happened to you personally with what those books said would,could or should happen as written.
> If one religion was absolutely the truth then only those within that religion would reap its exclusive benefits. In reality, it just doesn't work that way and the reason why there are different religions with different followers who all make similar boasts, claims and assertions.


I think if God exists, He/She/It is much like the proverbial elephant that all the blind fellers are feeling around on.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> I think if God exists, He/She/It is much like the proverbial elephant that all the blind fellers are feeling around on.


Well yes, nobody knows a god. They "know" their own personal interpretation of what a god would be like to them. They take information written thousands of years ago and form a character in their head that suits their wants and needs. 
As you can see above Spotlite is off on a typical response tangent by saying that there are people who get Christianity right and people who get it wrong.
He fails to see that HE as an individual has automatically included himself in the "I am in the right" group meanwhile every other one who he thinks is wrong think they are in the right and he is wrong.
This place is chock full of believers who all read the same book and all come away with different reasons and interpretations. And fail to realize that without that book, NONE of them would conjur up the same story in their own mind. Instead of having a story written for them which gets interpreted individually,  they would just make up individual stories. The similarities will be that no matter what type of gods are made up..in every case the individual that made up their god would have themselves convinced that they alone "know" what that god wants, they alone "understands" what that needs, and they alone are a special person because that god chose them personally. 
A bunch of blind guys feeling an elephant is right!!


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Well yes, nobody knows a god. They "know" their own personal interpretation of what a god would be like to them. They take information written thousands of years ago and form a character in their head that suits their wants and needs.
> As you can see above Spotlite is off on a typical response tangent by saying that there are people who get Christianity right and people who get it wrong.
> He fails to see that HE as an individual has automatically included himself in the "I am in the right" group meanwhile every other one who he thinks is wrong think they are in the right and he is wrong.
> This place is chock full of believers who all read the same book and all come away with different reasons and interpretations. And fail to realize that without that book, NONE of them would conjur up the same story in their own mind. Instead of having a story written for them which gets interpreted individually,  they would just make up individual stories. The similarities will be that no matter what type of gods are made up..in every case the individual that made up their god would have themselves convinced that they alone "know" what that god wants, they alone "understands" what that needs, and they alone are a special person because that god chose them personally.
> A bunch of blind guys feeling an elephant is right!!


If God is there and omnipotent, how on earth could I presume to know what it wants? That would be like the ants in my yard trying to fathom my desires and motivations.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> If God is there and omnipotent, how on earth could I presume to know what it wants? That would be like the ants in my yard trying to fathom my desires and motivations.


I have always said that I do not know if such an entity as a god exists, but if it does due to it's unfathomable complexity, I certainly could not dumb it down enough to pretend to know what it is, what it thinks, what it likes and also speak for it as if I have been chosen by it  because it NEEDS me to do some job it could do itself effortlessly.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 3, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> Something 'ol Ravioli said inspired a thought -
> "Where there is sin, there is need for a Savior".
> "Where there is a Savior, there is the possibility of redemption"
> "That in a nutshell is the entire Gospel story".
> ...



Incredible that they make that argument and then try to lay claim to morality. Who is more ethical? The man who seeks out a scapegoat to rescue him from accountability for his misdeeds? Or the man who looks in the mirror and places the accountability solely on his own shoulders?


----------



## The Original Rooster (Apr 3, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Incredible that they make that argument and then try to lay claim to morality. Who is more ethical? The man who seeks out a scapegoat to rescue him from accountability for his misdeeds? Or the man who looks in the mirror and places the accountability solely on his own shoulders?


Atlas, do you really think that poorly of us Christians? That we ask for forgiveness just so we can do wrong again?


----------



## j_seph (Apr 3, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Incredible that they make that argument and then try to lay claim to morality. Who is more ethical? The man who seeks out a scapegoat to rescue him from accountability for his misdeeds? Or the man who looks in the mirror and places the accountability solely on his own shoulders?


Seems to me that when I do wrong, and ask for forgiveness I am being accountable for what I done. Difference is if we do someone wrong just asking forgiveness of our sins does not end there. We then go to the one we did wrong and ask their forgiveness as well and apologize.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> You followed your own trail Spotlite and totally ignored the answer I gave.
> 
> Now here is your chance to answer my reply.
> 
> ...


There’s no trail lol. Yes, someone who accepts Jesus is a Christian. But, the point I was making was David Koresh claimed to be something he wasn’t. That claim made him no more than his claim. You on the other hand (at least in thousands of previous post on here when it comes to who’s a real Christian) see it as he’s representing God because of his claim and Christianity. There was nothing else to all that except anyone can claim anything, but the fruit they bear will tell the tale. So when you talk about 40,000 + denominations, take a closer look before you refer to them all as Christianity representing God. It’s not rocket science to figure out folks like Koresh isn’t a Godly representation of God. However, he did have followers, so I’m aware that there, and apparently still, very gullible people in this world.

The rest isn’t worth debating because you’ve already predetermined your mindset and missed the point. The very fact that you struggle with folks like Koresh and Christianity being “not the same” is evident that while you may can memorize the Bible, you’re clueless on its contents and have zero in depth understanding of the words in it - you can’t possibly claim something isn’t true when you know nothing about it.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

RoosterTodd said:


> Atlas, do you really think that poorly of us Christians? That we ask for forgiveness just so we can do wrong again?


Are you saying that for many it does not work that way?
Who at this point in their lives does not know what is right and what is wrong "sin" wise? 
Why would anyone have to ask for forgiveness multiple times if they already know what is acceptable and what is not?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> There’s no trail lol. Yes, someone who accepts Jesus is a Christian. But, the point I was making was David Koresh claimed to be something he wasn’t. That claim made him no more than his claim. You on the other hand (at least in thousands of previous post on here when it comes to who’s a real Christian) see it as he’s representing God because of his claim and Christianity. There was nothing else to all that except anyone can claim anything, but the fruit they bear will tell the tale. So when you talk about 40,000 + denominations, take a closer look before you using them all as Christianity representing God. It’s not rocket science to figure out folks like Koresh isn’t a Godly representation of God. However, he did have followers, so I’m aware that there very gullible people in this world.
> 
> The rest isn’t worth debating because you’ve already predetermined your mindset and missed the point.


Ok, you now agree that David Koresh accepting Jesus makes him a Christian,  but just not a "good" Christian.
So , using your expert ability to weed out the Real Christians such as yourself from the Not Real Christians, how many actual Christians are there on the planet?
And
Since the numbers will now drop dramatically will you call out anyone on here that argues Christianity is the largest religion and over a billion cannot be wrong?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Ok, you now agree that David Koresh accepting Jesus makes him a Christian,  but just not a "good" Christian.
> So , using your expert ability to weed out the Real Christians such as yourself from the Not Real Christians, how many actual Christians are there on the planet?
> And
> Since the numbers will now drop dramatically will you call out anyone on here that argues Christianity is the largest religion and over a billion cannot be wrong?


Read it again. Slowly. Now go see what a Christian does and compare to the Koresh claim. You’ll eventually figure it out. I’m actually surprised to see someone that claims to be so in depth with everything enough to discount everything biblically struggle with just understanding what that story says about a Christian walk and how that story warns of folks like Koresh. Even if it’s false, you should know the difference.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 3, 2020)

RoosterTodd said:


> Atlas, do you really think that poorly of us Christians? That we ask for forgiveness just so we can do wrong again?


I think most sincere Christians honestly try to do what's right. But nobody is perfect. I'm sure far from it. 

As Ray Wylie Hubbard said, _"it ain't that much harder to do what's right, it's just maybe not near as much fun."_


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 3, 2020)

RoosterTodd said:


> Atlas, do you really think that poorly of us Christians? That we ask for forgiveness just so we can do wrong again?



I think most Christians are well intended people who don't look very deeply beneath the veneer of what they were indoctrinated to believe from early childhood.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Read it again. Slowly.


I've read it and obviously disagree with it.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I've read it and obviously disagree with it.


I don’t think you can honestly disagree with it. It’s quite obvious you’re not understanding the qualifications of a Christian walk. It’s in the Bible you claim to know ?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 3, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> I think most Christians are well intended people who don't look very deeply beneath the veneer of what they were indoctrinated to believe from early childhood.


I’m finding out that some non believers look no further than a claim.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 3, 2020)

j_seph said:


> Seems to me that when I do wrong, and ask for forgiveness I am being accountable for what I done. Difference is if we do someone wrong just asking forgiveness of our sins does not end there. We then go to the one we did wrong and ask their forgiveness as well and apologize.



I'm reminded of this old hymn.



> What can wash away my sin?
> Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
> What can make me whole again?
> Nothing but the blood of Jesus. Oh! precious is the flow
> ...



This is not accountability. This is scapegoating. It's using the blood of someone who did not commit your misdeeds as payment for your misdeeds. It's salvation not by paying your own debts but by having someone else pay your debt and worse paying your debt by way of the murder of an innocent man. It's morally reprehensible.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t think you can honestly disagree with it. It’s quite obvious you’re not understanding the qualifications of a Christian walk. It’s in the Bible you claim to know ?


Explain in detail, rather than assert, which of the 40,000 denominations are not real Christians. 
I know the story of Hong Kong Phooey well also, does that make him Faster than the Human Eye in reality?


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 3, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Read it again. Slowly. Now go see what a Christian does and compare to the Koresh claim. You’ll eventually figure it out. I’m actually surprised to see someone that claims to be so in depth with everything enough to discount everything biblically struggle with just understanding what that story says about a Christian walk and how that story warns of folks like Koresh. Even if it’s false, you should know the difference.





Spotlite said:


> I don’t think you can honestly disagree with it. It’s quite obvious you’re not understanding the qualifications of a Christian walk. It’s in the Bible you claim to know ?


Just don't forget that Christianity started out as a small cult of homeless hippies who went around preaching crazy ideas that often directly contradicted the written Word of God that the real Jews of the day walked and lived their lives by.

And that the Branch Davidians would say that they are walking the true walk, and you're not. And believe it just as much.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 3, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> I think most Christians are well intended people who don't look very deeply beneath the veneer of what they were indoctrinated to believe from early childhood.


I've always said that the majority of devout Christians in America would be devout Muslims, Hindus, or Buddhists, if they had been born in Yemen, India, or Tibet.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Read it again. Slowly. Now go see what a Christian does and compare to the Koresh claim. You’ll eventually figure it out. I’m actually surprised to see someone that claims to be so in depth with everything enough to discount everything biblically struggle with just understanding what that story says about a Christian walk and how that story warns of folks like Koresh. Even if it’s false, you should know the difference.


You are arguing that an offshoot cult is less legitimate than another offshoot cult because the handbook of the first offshoot cult says so! Priceless Spot.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Read it again. Slowly. Now go see what a Christian does and compare to the Koresh claim. You’ll eventually figure it out. I’m actually surprised to see someone that claims to be so in depth with everything enough to discount everything biblically struggle with just understanding what that story says about a Christian walk and how that story warns of folks like Koresh. Even if it’s false, you should know the difference.


“This Book is not to be doubted…. As for the unbelievers, it is the same whether or not you forewarn them; they will not have faith. God has set a seal upon their hearts and ears; their sight is dimmed and grievous punishment awaits them.” Quran 2:1/2:6-2:10
It is written Spotlite , does that make it so?

Pot meet Kettle:

Definitions of a Cult:


A particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
An instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
The object of such devotion.
A group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
Sociology. A group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
A religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
The members of such a religion or sect.
Any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Apr 3, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> I think most Christians are well intended people who don't look very deeply beneath the veneer of what they were indoctrinated to believe from early childhood.


That doesn't describe me so I guess I'm not "most".


----------



## j_seph (Apr 3, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> I'm reminded of this old hymn.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not accountability. This is scapegoating. It's using the blood of someone who did not commit your misdeeds as payment for your misdeeds. It's salvation not by paying your own debts but by having someone else pay your debt and worse paying your debt by way of the murder of an innocent man. It's morally reprehensible.


So I have cheated you out of money, I ask my Lord for forgiveness then I come to you, pay you the money I cheated you out of, apologize I am not taking the responsibility?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

j_seph said:


> So I have cheated you out of money, I ask my Lord for forgiveness then I come to you, pay you the money I cheated you out of, apologize I am not taking the responsibility?


Not the first time,  no.
But when it happens again, and again, and again to the same or different people it becomes a hollow excuse.
Edit to add: that might not describe you personally, but it fits many many many others I have dealt with in my 50 years. Same people who are constantly lying, cheating, womanizing, etc etc all week show up in the pews on Sunday offering peace, confessing sins and asking for forgiveness only to be right back at it Sunday eve.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 3, 2020)

j_seph said:


> So I have cheated you out of money, I ask my Lord for forgiveness then I come to you, pay you the money I cheated you out of, apologize I am not taking the responsibility?



There is nothing about taking personal responsibility and asking someone forgiveness that is uniquely Christian. Anyone can do that and should. That's not the issue. The issue is when you dip your hands in the blood of an innocent human sacrifice and declare your hands clean by way of it.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

Spotlite,here is how the Christian cult was and still is thought of by the Hard Core Jews.
http://www.talmudunmasked.com/chapter15.htm
You can see that you are looked upon by your parent religion no different than you look upon others.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 3, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> Just don't forget that Christianity started out as a small cult of homeless hippies who went around preaching crazy ideas that often directly contradicted the written Word of God that the real Jews of the day walked and lived their lives by.
> 
> And that the Branch Davidians would say that they are walking the true walk, and you're not. And believe it just as much.


Lol no, that’s a matter of opinion buddy. 

And yes, the Davidians would say that. They, along with most non believers would believe that, too. The problem with them, they’re brainwashed, just ask the ones that escaped. 

The problem with some non believers is they’re biased, their goal isn’t to learn anything, it’s to belittle something they can’t comprehend. They claim to know the Bible better than most Christians, yet they lack the basic understanding that the Bible talks about those that would pervert the Gospel, not every one that says Lord, those that would believe a lie, and false teachers. But for them, EVERYONE that claims any type religion represents Christianity.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Explain in detail, rather than assert, which of the 40,000 denominations are not real Christians.
> I know the story of Hong Kong Phooey well also, does that make him Faster than the Human Eye in reality?



I never asserted anything lol. You’re saying there are 40,000+ denominations out there. I’ve never even looked. How about you explain in detail, rather than asserting, how those 40,000 + denominations represent Christianity.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Spotlite,here is how the Christian cult was and still is thought of by the Hard Core Jews.
> http://www.talmudunmasked.com/chapter15.htm
> You can see that you are looked upon by your parent religion no different than you look upon others.


Their thoughts mean......


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> “This Book is not to be doubted…. As for the unbelievers, it is the same whether or not you forewarn them; they will not have faith. God has set a seal upon their hearts and ears; their sight is dimmed and grievous punishment awaits them.” Quran 2:1/2:6-2:10
> It is written Spotlite , does that make it so?
> 
> Pot meet Kettle:
> ...


1 - I don’t read the Quran ??

2 - You’re free to believe that Christianity is a cult if you choose to do so.

3 - There is a misconception by you that I think I’m the only one (Christian) that’s got it right. Give you some homework, go find where I made any such statement.

4 - Why on earth are you still analyzing something that might be a cult so you can make sure you’re not overlooking anything???????? Either this is a game for you so you can act on your hatred for religion, or you’re honestly thinking it might be true after all and this is your way of handling that in front of your “like buddies”. Either way, you haven’t ruled it out  ?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> “This Book is not to be doubted…. As for the unbelievers, it is the same whether or not you forewarn them; they will not have faith. God has set a seal upon their hearts and ears; their sight is dimmed and grievous punishment awaits them.” Quran 2:1/2:6-2:10
> It is written Spotlite , does that make it so?



See,  I never once said because something is written, it makes it so. 

What I’ve always said is stop cherry picking scripture that fit your agenda - it doesn’t matter if the Bible story is true or false, what matters is in that story, it warns you of certain people (false prophets, etc), yet you’re so biased that you overlook that part and lump everything Christian. 

A Christian is a follower of Christ, the Muslims are not Christianity, they don’t follow Christ. There’s no pot nor kettle in your comment.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> I never asserted anything lol. You’re saying there are 40,000+ denominations out there. I’ve never even looked. How about you explain in detail, rather than asserting, how those 40,000 + denominations represent Christianity.





Spotlite said:


> I never asserted anything lol. You’re saying there are 40,000+ denominations out there. I’ve never even looked. How about you explain in detail, rather than asserting, how those 40,000 + denominations represent Christianity.


I am absolutely not the one claiming they do represent Christianity.  I am using a Pro Christian site that says that amount.

You willfully made the claim that not all the denominations qualify as being Christian so I've asked you to clarify that based off of the door you opened by stating what you did.
You have avoided explaining what you state throughout this entire discussion. 

You asked me what makes someone a Christian and I replied a person that accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior. You then did not initially acknowledge my reply and instead went off on some other criteria (bible contents)that I never said had anything to do with being a Christian. I said those contents can be found in other religions books also. For example A religious book that states there will be non believers. Wowwwwww. No Wayyyyyy. What are the odds? Well, I showed you the exact same nonsense in another religious book and you pass it off as that you dont read the Qur'an. 

Then after pressed you admit that my statement about accepting Christ as L&S is correct but you continue on trying to discredit the Branch Davidians as being Christians.
If they accept Christ as their L&S then what disqualifies them? Which is it?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Their thoughts mean......


Exactly as your do regarding you stating who is or who is not Christian.
Ill let you rank them.
10/10, 1/10, or somewhere in between puts you all in the exact same number.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> 1 - I don’t read the Quran ??


That has zero to do with it.
The example I used is in there the same as it is in your book.
Whether you read it or not does not negate the fact that I pointed out.



Spotlite said:


> 2 - You’re free to believe that Christianity is a cult if you choose to do so.


Obvious statement 



Spotlite said:


> 3 - There is a misconception by you that I think I’m the only one (Christian) that’s got it right. Give you some homework, go find where I made any such statement.


That goes directly against what I have stated in this thread, as I have stated that it is an individual thing and each individual thinks they are more right. 



Spotlite said:


> 4 - Why on earth are you still analyzing something that might be a cult so you can make sure you’re not overlooking anything????????


I am absolutely in no way shape or form analyzing a cult. I am not looking for anything in an organized religion/cult.


Spotlite said:


> Either this is a game for you so you can act on your hatred for religion, or you’re honestly thinking it might be true after all and this is your way of handling that in front of your “like buddies”. Either way, you haven’t ruled it out  ?


You must have missed my clear and concise statement made in reply to NC Hillbilly that stated that I have no idea if a god exists.
I am 100% convinced that it is no god as portrayed in any organized religion.
I am giving someone a chance to change my mind or show me something that I have overlooked.
Spotlite,  you have obviously not thought of all the possibilities. 
And, last I looked, YOU have been my biggest LIKE buddy throughout this thread.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 3, 2020)

Atlas unlike many here, I don’t think you’re better than this at all.  I’ll pray for you anyway.  

These kinds of threads are hilarious.  I’m not sure what you’re looking for other than an argument and a chance to try show off how smart you think you are.  It’s like guys like you think you’re going to be there at the end if I die and my beliefs were to all turn out to be hocus pocus to point and laugh and say, “Haha, stupid!  Told ya!”  If you’re right I won’t know anything and neither will you.  We will both just be dirt so the extent of you getting to feel superior is on the internet during this lifetime and I don’t care so...

If I do turn out to be right...well things don’t turn out so good for you in that scenario.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 3, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> If God is there and omnipotent, how on earth could I presume to know what it wants? That would be like the ants in my yard trying to fathom my desires and motivations.


The ants in the yard don’t have a book inspired by your word.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> That has zero to do with it.
> The example I used is in there the same as it is in your book.
> Whether you read it or not does not negate the fact that I pointed out.
> 
> ...


Lol hey we can still be pals ???


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> See,  I never once said because something is written, it makes it so.


You said It Says So In The Bible



Spotlite said:


> What I’ve always said is stop cherry picking scripture that fit your agenda - it doesn’t matter if the Bible story is true or false, what matters is in that story, it warns you of certain people (false prophets, etc), yet you’re so biased that you overlook that part and lump everything Christian.


I JUST showed you that warnings of false prophets in religious books is NOT uniquely Christian by giving you a direct quote from the Qur'an.
You just blatantly lied about me being biased. Flat out false statement by you.



Spotlite said:


> A Christian is a follower of Christ, the Muslims are not Christianity, they don’t follow Christ. There’s no pot nor kettle in your comment.


Crack one more case like that and you'll be Heads Up 7up champ!
My reason for showing you that was to enlighten you that the books in other religions also state about non believers making false claims.
YOU take it upon yourself to try to make it out as if I said something else because you cannot refute or admit that what I said and what I showed is exactly 100% spot on.
Too bad On you.[/QUOTE]


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Lol hey we can still be pals ???


Better than pals, I have a Like Buddy


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 3, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> The ants in the yard don’t have a book inspired by your word.


They might have a book that some of them wrote that they tell the others I inspired. It might include where I killed all the ants in the yard in a big flood of ant killer in my wrath at them, except for a few that survived because I left an old boot out there that they crawled into and survived to be fruitful and repopulate the yard.

And maybe about how my chosen hill of red ants smote the heathen black ants over in the corner of the backyard because I gave them a sacred granule of Diazinon that they toted around in a wooden box for months  until they carried over there and dumped it down the hole and smote the infidels.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> The ants in the yard don’t have a book inspired by your word.


They have more than a book. They get to hear him speak his word. No need for some ant to write it down decades later.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 3, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> They might have a book that some of them wrote that they tell the others I inspired. It might include where I killed all the ants in the yard in a big flood of ant killer in my wrath at them, except for a few that survived because I left an old boot out there that they crawled into and survived to be fruitful and repopulate the yard.



Ants can write?  Man that’s awesome.  That scenario is interesting for sure.  Did you do that stuff?  If so...

Rock on, Hillbilly.  I won’t lie and say that I don’t care whether you believe or not because I do.  But I don’t berate people about it and you’ve explained to me before why you feel the way you do and it’s aint gonna change because of anything I say.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> They have more than a book. They get to hear him speak his word. No need for some ant to write it down decades later.



Hillbilly’s ants can understand his words?  Man I have got to see these ants of his.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> You said It Says So In The Bible
> 
> 
> I JUST showed you that warnings of false prophets in religious books is NOT uniquely Christian by giving you a direct quote from the Qur'an.
> ...


I’m just going to let you win this time ? but next time I’m winning


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 3, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Ants can write?  Man that’s awesome.  That scenario is interesting for sure.  Did you do that stuff?  If so...
> 
> Rock on, Hillbilly.  I won’t lie and say that I don’t care whether you believe or not because I do.  But I don’t berate people about it and you’ve explained to me before why you feel the way you do and it’s aint gonna change because of anything I say.


I'm not trying to change your mind. You have the same chance of being right as I do. I do believe that there's a higher power out there. I just don't believe that it is at all the way that most mainstream religions make it out to be. I don't think it's understandable. And I think most organized religions were created to control people. The same way you rail about the government using the COVID crisis to control us and take over our lives. Same deal. And people submit willingly to it and berate others for not submitting. And, I admit that I may be wrong. But, I may be right, also. I think religion is a personal thing that everyone should be able to believe what they feel is the truth. I don't put all my eggs into the basket of a book written 2,000 years ago by Hebrews. They may have not known any more than I do about the truth.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 3, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Hillbilly’s ants can understand his words?  Man I have got to see these ants of his.


Is that more unbelievable than us understanding an omnipotent God?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 3, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> Is that more unbelievable than us understanding an omnipotent God?


I don’t think we can truly understand him.  We can understand a certain amount of what is in his word.  I don’t pretend to understand it all and I’m not worried about it.  Faith that Jesus is who he said he is, what he did for us, love your neighbor as yourself as much as humanly possible as often as possible, and trying to help others where you can.  That and spreading the gospel in a non heavy handed way.  Those things are what is important.  Mostly on that score I try to live a good sermon rather than preach one to people.  I fail at that mostly but I try.  I don’t claim to know or understand much more than that.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 3, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> I'm not trying to change your mind. You have the same chance of being right as I do. I do believe that there's a higher power out there. I just don't believe that it is at all the way that most mainstream religions make it out to be. I don't think it's understandable. And I think most organized religions were created to control people. The same way you rail about the government using the COVID crisis to control us and take over our lives. Same deal. And people submit willingly to it and berate others for not submitting. And, I admit that I may be wrong. But, I may be right, also. I think religion is a personal thing that everyone should be able to believe what they feel is the truth. I don't put all my eggs into the basket of a book written 2,000 years ago by Hebrews. They may have not known any more than I do about the truth.



Fine by me.  I’m not going to fight with you about this.  Not going to try and convince you of anything either.  You’re mind is made up and that’s just how that is.  I can dig it if you can.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Hillbilly’s ants can understand his words?  Man I have got to see these ants of his.


About as well as you can understand the words of your god.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> About as well as you can understand the words of your god.


Heh heh.  That doesn’t bother me, man.  I’m not one of those kinds of Christians.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 3, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Fine by me.  I’m not going to fight with you about this.  Not going to try and convince you of anything either.  You’re mind is made up and that’s just how that is.  I can dig it if you can.


Same here. We good.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Heh heh.  That doesn’t bother me, man.  I’m not one of those kinds of Christians.


It's not meant to bother you.
It is meant to show another perspective and give someone something to think about.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 3, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> Same here. We good.


We always have been, man.  Getting bent about what people say on the internet is almost always a mistake.  Half the time you’re misunderstand their intent and projecting tone onto their posts that isn’t there.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> It's not meant to bother you.
> It is meant to show another perspective and give someone something to think about.


Pretty arrogant.  That assumes I’ve never questioned my faith and always just believed what I was told.  Neither of those is the case.  I’m like the prodigal son.  I’ve thought about all this stuff a lot and went through several years of not being sure whether I believed or not and was leaning hard toward not for a few years there.  I’ve read almost every argument against that’s out there and talked to a lot of people who think Christianity is a load of crap.  This isn’t something I’ve barely considered.  Thanks for your attempt at my edification though.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Pretty arrogant.  That assumes I’ve never questioned my faith and always just believed what I was told.  Neither of those is the case.  I’m like the prodigal son.  I’ve thought about all this stuff a lot and went through several years of not being sure whether I believed or not and was leaning hard toward not for a few years there.  I’ve read almost every argument against that’s out there and talked to a lot of people who think Christianity is a load of crap.  This isn’t something I’ve barely considered.  Thanks for your attempt at my edification though.


Arrogant?
I have a hard time believing that you have never offered an opinion on a subject because you figured that the person may have already covered all the bases. 
What is arrogant about explaining why I said what I said?
That is the problem with typed words on the internet.  I in no way said it or meant it to be arrogant. You took it how you interpreted it.
Same thing happens with scripture too. Ask 100 different people to read something and respond to it and you'll likely get 75 different answers.
Take it easy
Keep on doing what you are doing. If it works it works.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Arrogant?
> That is the problem with typed words on the internet.  I in no way said it or meant it to be arrogant. You took it how you interpreted it.
> Same thing happens with scripture too. Ask 100 different people to read something and respond to it and you'll likely get 75 different answers.
> Take it easy
> Keep on doing what you are doing. If it works it works.


 Fair enough.  But saying it was to give me something to think about makes it sound like it hadn’t been thought about.  But if you didn’t mean that then you didn’t.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Fair enough.  But saying it was to give me something to think about makes it sound like it hadn’t been thought about.  But if you didn’t mean that then you didn’t.


How would I know what you've thought?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> How would I know what you've thought?


Exactly.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Exactly.


To be fair, If you followed your own advice you wouldn't share your thoughts with anyone in any forum out of respect that they may have already thought of it.
Throwing something out there is needed to make conversation.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 3, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Atlas unlike many here, I don’t think you’re better than this at all.  I’ll pray for you anyway.
> 
> These kinds of threads are hilarious.  I’m not sure what you’re looking for other than an argument and a chance to try show off how smart you think you are.  It’s like guys like you think you’re going to be there at the end if I die and my beliefs were to all turn out to be hocus pocus to point and laugh and say, “Haha, stupid!  Told ya!”  If you’re right I won’t know anything and neither will you.  We will both just be dirt so the extent of you getting to feel superior is on the internet during this lifetime and I don’t care so...
> 
> If I do turn out to be right...well things don’t turn out so good for you in that scenario.



^There is the condescending “I’ll pray for you” I was referring to in post 22. Throw in an ignoring of the questions asked in the OP while pretending not to understand why the thread was created and a little “Pascal’s Wager so there!” on the side. Pretty weak apologetics even for this forum and that’s saying something.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 3, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> ^There is the condescending “I’ll pray for you” I was referring to in post 22. Throw in an ignoring of the questions asked in the OP while pretending not to understand why the thread was created and a little “Pascal’s Wager so there!” on the side. Pretty weak apologetics even for this forum and that’s saying something.



I’ve been saying that for years.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> To be fair, If you followed your own advice you wouldn't share your thoughts with anyone in any forum out of respect that they may have already thought of it.
> Throwing something out there is needed to make conversation.


Sure it is.  There’s an art to doing it without acting like you’re the adult in the room though.


----------



## Juan De (Apr 3, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Listen, in that same bible it tells us that god wants SOME of us and has made others to never know him.
> The bible is quite the collection of contradictions. It tells of Free Will in one verse and of Predetermined in another. Believers use whatever fits.
> 
> You might feel free but you have no idea what a god wants unless you talk to god and he answers you.
> ...


Respectfully, I can say nothing that you have not already conversed with some one and no matter what I say you will scoff at. God does know your favorite pets name, but I’m not going to ask Him because it won’t make a difference. If I said a name , Walter just for example, you would throw it off as chance. I wish you well and will pray for you. Here is a website for you to do a little digging. truelife.org  Regards Juan


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 3, 2020)

This should have been an easily answered question if prayer was really as effective as advertised in the Bible.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

Juan De said:


> Respectfully, I can say nothing that you have not already conversed with some one and no matter what I say you will scoff at. God does know your favorite pets name, but I’m not going to ask Him because it won’t make a difference. If I said a name , Walter just for example, you would throw it off as chance. I wish you well and will pray for you. Here is a website for you to do a little digging. truelife.org  Regards Juan


Excuses instead of results.
I had hoped I found someone who actually talked to god and didn't just answer for god the same way you'd answer for yourself. 
If you said a name, and it was correct, I'd marvel at the odds and would have to think you actually talked to a god. I am honest enough to admit it if you said the right name.
Having the ability to ask and get an answer but not doing it instead saying that you already know the outcome is a poor excuse.
It leads me to believe that you know there is no way you'd ever get a reply let alone the right answer so you made up an excuse.


----------



## Kev (Apr 3, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Atlas unlike many here, I don’t think you’re better than this at all.  I’ll pray for you anyway.
> 
> These kinds of threads are hilarious.  I’m not sure what you’re looking for other than an argument and a chance to try show off how smart you think you are.  It’s like guys like you think you’re going to be there at the end if I die and my beliefs were to all turn out to be hocus pocus to point and laugh and say, “Haha, stupid!  Told ya!”  If you’re right I won’t know anything and neither will you.  We will both just be dirt so the extent of you getting to feel superior is on the internet during this lifetime and I don’t care so...
> 
> If I do turn out to be right...well things don’t turn out so good for you in that scenario.


Genius


----------



## bullethead (Apr 3, 2020)

Kev said:


> Genius


Do you also think it is a dirt or heaven choice?
Is it possible that there is a 3rd possibility?
50 more possibilities?
10,000 more possibilities?
How many is a reasonable amount to prepare for?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 4, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Do you also think it is a dirt or heaven choice?
> Is it possible that there is a 3rd possibility?
> 50 more possibilities?
> 10,000 more possibilities?
> How many is a reasonable amount to prepare for?



Who’s to say there isn’t an afterlife that rewards those who choose reason over religion and punishes those who choose Pascal’s wager? Wouldn’t the religious be in for a shock if they got the god bit right but still missed the mark.


----------



## Kev (Apr 4, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Who’s to say there isn’t an afterlife that rewards those who choose reason over religion and punishes those who choose Pascal’s wager? Wouldn’t the religious be in for a shock if they got the god bit right but still missed the mark.





atlashunter said:


> Who’s to say there isn’t an afterlife that rewards those who choose reason over religion and punishes those who choose Pascal’s wager? Wouldn’t the religious be in for a shock if they got the god bit right but still missed the mark.


I’m actually in my afterlife now. I use to be dog but got hit by a car. So you may be on to something.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 4, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Who’s to say there isn’t an afterlife that rewards those who choose reason over religion and punishes those who choose Pascal’s wager? Wouldn’t the religious be in for a shock if they got the god bit right but still missed the mark.


I would think that the odds would be waaaay higher for that ^ to be true than the odds for anybody knowing anything about what that god wants, says, thinks etc.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 4, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Who’s to say there isn’t an afterlife that rewards those who choose reason over religion and punishes those who choose Pascal’s wager? Wouldn’t the religious be in for a shock if they got the god bit right but still missed the mark.


I’m sure that idea is a great comfort to you.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 4, 2020)

Kev said:


> Genius



Hardly.  But Mr Pseudo Intellectual Philosopher Guy is nowhere near as unique, thoughtful, or original as he seems to think he is.  These guys always think they’re the only ones that have thought their thoughts.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Apr 4, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Who’s to say there isn’t an afterlife that rewards those who choose reason over religion and punishes those who choose Pascal’s wager? Wouldn’t the religious be in for a shock if they got the god bit right but still missed the mark.


It's not a bet if you know how it ends.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 4, 2020)

RoosterTodd said:


> It's not a bet if you know how it ends.


Sure it is. Its just a different bet.
Now you are betting that what youve been told about how it ends is in fact true.
Thats where faith comes in.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 4, 2020)

Kev said:


> I’m actually in my afterlife now. I use to be dog but got hit by a car. So you may be on to something.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 4, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> I’m sure that idea is a great comfort to you.



I don’t know about comforting but certainly amusing.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 4, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> I don’t know about comforting but certainly amusing.


I’ve gotta hand it to you.  You’re committed.  You never break character.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 4, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> I would think that the odds would be waaaay higher for that ^ to be true than the odds for anybody knowing anything about what that god wants, says, thinks etc.



It does seem improbable that a creator would make a reality whose truths could be unlocked by reason, equip man with reason, and then make his eternal future dependent on the abandonment of reason in favor of credulity. Perhaps credulity is the real temptation.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 4, 2020)

“In this age we are all gods but for the wisdom.”  Eric Weinstein.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 4, 2020)

I have yet to see anyone here that thinks they are a god. Closest to that would be those who think they are in communication with and speak on behalf of a god.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 4, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> I have yet to see anyone here that thinks they are a god. Closest to that would be those who think they are in communication with and speak on behalf of a god.


Why does it bother you so much?  And please spare me the bemused, above the fray, cold distant observer act.  It’s tedious.  Why does it bother you if it’s all hogwash?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 4, 2020)

John 14:12

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater _works_ than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.”

I have yet too see any believer fulfill this claim.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 4, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> John 14:12
> 
> “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater _works_ than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.”
> 
> I have yet too see any believer fulfill this claim.


So you scoff at Christians because they don’t understand all of the Bible, you challenge them on meanings of scripture, and then presume to understand it all yourself.  Maybe you aren’t all that consistent.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 4, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> John 14:12
> 
> “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater _works_ than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.”
> 
> I have yet too see any believer fulfill this claim.


What are those greater works?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 4, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> What are those greater works?



I’m sure a believer could use their imagination but let’s start with the ones he did, like walking in water.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 4, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> So you scoff at Christians because they don’t understand all of the Bible, you challenge them on meanings of scripture, and then presume to understand it all yourself.  Maybe you aren’t all that consistent.



You get done beatin on that straw man you can tell me what that scripture really meant to say.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 4, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> You get done beatin on that straw man you can tell me what that scripture really meant to say.



?Reading comprehension is not your thing I guess.  You missed the part where I said there was a lot that I don’t understand about God’s word but the essential part is pretty self explanatory.  I’m not interested in your little parlor game.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 4, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> I’m sure a believer could use their imagination but let’s start with the ones he did, like walking in water.


The claim was for greater works. Just list those. You must know what they are to make a statement such as you did.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 4, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> The claim was for greater works. Just list those. You must know what they are to make a statement such as you did.



The claim was for both the same and greater works. “The works that I do shall he do also”

I don’t want to set the bar too high so let’s start with those. That would be things like walking on water, turning water to wine, feeding thousands of people with a couple fish and a few loaves of bread, and resurrecting the dead.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Apr 4, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> The claim was for both the same and greater works. “The works that I do shall he do also”
> 
> I don’t want to set the bar too high so let’s start with those. That would be things like walking on water, turning water to wine, feeding thousands of people with a couple fish and a few loaves of bread, and resurrecting the dead.


I saw my junior high cafeteria feed 500 people chili with two pounds of hamburger meat.....


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 4, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> ?Reading comprehension is not your thing I guess.  You missed the part where I said there was a lot that I don’t understand about God’s word but the essential part is pretty self explanatory.  I’m not interested in your little parlor game.



So do you understand that scripture or not? If you do and you think I’ve got it wrong then stop beating around the bush and explain it. If you don’t understand it then stop with the straw man argumentation and admit you don’t get it. In either case get your hiney off your shoulders or take it elsewhere. Really makes no difference to me.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 4, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> So do you understand that scripture or not? If you do and you think I’ve got it wrong then stop beating around the bush and explain it. If you don’t understand it then stop with the straw man argumentation and admit you don’t get it. In either case get your hiney off your shoulders or take it elsewhere. Really makes no difference to me.


Yeah it clearly makes no difference to you at all.  Right.?. Is English not your first language?  For like the fourth time, no I don’t understand it.  And my hiney couldn’t be any farther from my shoulders.  I think maybe you’re projecting. godlessness sure makes a fella touchy.?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 4, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> I saw my junior high cafeteria feed 500 people chili with two pounds of hamburger meat.....


Any good?  Wasn’t Hormel, was it?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 4, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Yeah it clearly makes no difference to you at all.  Right.?. Is English not your first language?  For like the fourth time, no I don’t understand it.  Big deal.  I guess you won.?



KJV was in English last I checked. Maybe you’d rather not understand the verse to avoid the obvious fact you can’t perform the miracles it says you as a believer should be able to perform.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 4, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> KJV was in English last I checked. Maybe you’d rather not understand the verse to avoid the obvious fact you can’t perform the miracles it says you as a believer should be able to perform.


??Yeah that’s it.  I’m mad because I thought I could perform miracles.  You need to do stand up, man.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 4, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> ??Yeah that’s it.  I’m mad because I thought I could perform miracles.  You need to do stand up, man.



Are you mad? Didn’t pick up on that. Just thought you were feining the inability to comprehend what that verse says. What are you mad for?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 4, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Are you mad? Didn’t pick up on that. Just thought you were feining the inability to comprehend what that verse says. What are you mad for?


Projecting again.  See all the smilies?  That means I’m laughing at you.?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 4, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> The claim was for both the same and greater works. “The works that I do shall he do also”
> 
> I don’t want to set the bar too high so let’s start with those. That would be things like walking on water, turning water to wine, feeding thousands of people with a couple fish and a few loaves of bread, and resurrecting the dead.


Well, I have walked on a sand bar before?

I know you don’t consider the spiritual side of things and since religion is spiritual - raising the dead is more than raising the dead. When you bring someone back into the church, you’ve raised the dead, bringing someone into salvation is greater than anything you've listed ?

And, I have personally witnessed miracles.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 4, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Well, I have walked on a sand bar before?
> 
> I know you don’t consider the spiritual side of things and since religion is spiritual - raising the dead is more than raising the dead. When you bring someone back into the church, you’ve raised the dead, bringing someone into salvation is greater than anything you've listed ?
> 
> And, I have personally witnessed miracles.



Retreat into metaphor doesn’t help you unless you’re prepared to say the miracles Jesus performed were all metaphorical as well.


----------



## Kev (Apr 4, 2020)

Atlas, what do you believe? What are you trying to prove? Where did reason come from? Where did the Earth come from and where did people come from? I need answers from you.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 4, 2020)

Kev said:


> Atlas, what do you believe? What are you trying to prove? Where did reason come from? Where did the Earth come from and where did people come from? I need answers from you.



Read the first post of this thread if you want to know what I’m “trying to prove”. For the other questions start a separate thread and I will take part.


----------



## Kev (Apr 4, 2020)

Ok. Thanks ?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Retreat into metaphor doesn’t help you unless you’re prepared to say the miracles Jesus performed were all metaphorical as well.


God help you - you don’t understand what you think you do.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> The more you do this, the more you prove how clueless you are to a Bible / Religion that you claim to know so much about. You’re loster than a ball in high weeds and, ignorantly laughable at best lol



Ok. I’m providing you with scripture that makes specific claims. First you try to use metaphor to defend it and when that doesn’t work you just call me clueless. Is this really the best you can do? Don’t just tell me I’ve got it wrong. That’s a mere assertion. Show me where my error is. These aren’t my claims they are the claims of the author of the gospel of John.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 5, 2020)

> Spotlite said:
> The more you do this, the more you prove how clueless you are to a Bible / Religion that you claim to know so much about. You’re loster than a ball in high weeds and, ignorantly laughable at best lol


How did my golf game get into y'alls conversation?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

Can someone show me a believer that is able to bring the dead back to life? I’m talking about people who have physically died and then we summon the faith healer to come bring them back to life with prayer.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

Kev said:


> Atlas, what do you believe? What are you trying to prove? Where did reason come from? Where did the Earth come from and where did people come from? I need answers from you.


He likes belittling people’s faith and loves trying to cast himself as a thinker.  The entire thing is tied up in ego.  I don’t doubt that he’s arrogant but only a guy with a big thumping case of inferiority would spend so much time trying to put other people down and going through such contortions trying to present himself as the smart guy in the room.  As obnoxious as he is I feel sorry for him.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Can someone show me a believer that is able to bring the dead back to life? I’m talking about people who have physically died and then we summon the faith healer to come bring them back to life with prayer.



Can you show me a believer that claims they can do it?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Can you show me a believer that claims they can do it?


The bible tells believers they can do it.
If that is god's word why would any beliver, let alone all believers, think they couldn't do it?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> The bible tells believers they can do it.
> If that is god's word why would any beliver, let alone all believers, think they couldn't do it?


You sure that’s what it says?  Does it say when we will be able to do this?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> You sure that’s what it says?  Does it say when we will be able to do this?



Says he who believeth on me. That’s the criteria John sets. Do you believe?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> The bible tells believers they can do it.
> If that is god's word why would any beliver, let alone all believers, think they couldn't do it?



That’s what I would like to know. I was always told the Bible says what it means and means what it says.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Says he who believeth on me. That’s the criteria John sets. Do you believe?


You sure you’ve got the whole picture here?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> You sure that’s what it says?  Does it say when we will be able to do this?


Sorry, I forgot you do not understand the book you use to worship.
Matthew 10:7-8 says this

As you go, announce this: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ Heal the sick, *raise the dead*, cleanse those with skin diseases, drive out demons. You have received free of charge; give free of charge.
(Matthew 10:7-8 HCSB)​And then they say Jesus told his disciples to teach others to do the same things

Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, *teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you*. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
(Matthew 28:19-20 HCSB)​And they also point out that Jesus said

“I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and* even greater works*, because I am going to be with the Father.” (John 14:12 NLT)​


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Sorry, I forgot you do not understand the book you use to worship.
> Matthew 10:7-8 says this
> 
> As you go, announce this: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ Heal the sick, *raise the dead*, cleanse those with skin diseases, drive out demons. You have received free of charge; give free of charge.
> ...



So you know exactly when Jesus was talking about that we would do these things?  How do you know?  You understand the Bible implicitly even though you don’t believe its words?  I doubt that.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> That’s what I would like to know. I was always told the Bible says what it means and means what it says.



Ha! That’s what you would like to know?  No it isn’t.  Your goal here is obvious and it isn’t to try to find out more.  Intellectual dishonesty is your stock in trade.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> So you know exactly when Jesus was talking about that we would do these things?  How do you know?  You understand the Bible implicitly even though you don’t believe its words?  I doubt that.


I've searched the verses, and try as I might I cannot find Jesus's announcement for National Bring Em Back From the Dead Day.
But it clearly says what it says
“I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and* even greater works*, because I am going to be with the Father.” 

Or maybe you are still making excuses instead of providing facts why what Jesus says in the bible just does not hold true.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> So you know exactly when Jesus was talking about that we would do these things?  How do you know?  You understand the Bible implicitly even though you don’t believe its words?  I doubt that.


When, in your opinion would be a good time for people to bring someone back from the dead? While they are dead here on Earth or when everyone is gathered in the Dee-luxe Apartment in the Sky?
Kind of late to do those parlor tricks once through the pearlies isn't it?


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> You sure that’s what it says?  Does it say when we will be able to do this?


Based on -


> because I am going to be with the Father.


The "when" is when Jesus has gone to be with the Father.
According to Christian belief where is Jesus right now?
Sitting at the right hand of........

At least thats how I read it.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Says he who believeth on me. That’s the criteria John sets. Do you believe?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> Based on -
> 
> The "when" is when Jesus has gone to be with the Father.
> According to Christian belief where is Jesus right now?
> ...



I don’t see an expiration date on these powers but sure seems like SGD would like to have one.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> When, in your opinion would be a good time for people to bring someone back from the dead? While they are dead here on Earth or when everyone is gathered in the Dee-luxe Apartment in the Sky?
> Kind of late to do those parlor tricks once through the pearlies isn't it?


The only parlor tricks going on here are those being played by you and your pal.  Is it possible you and I don’t understand this scripture?  

Once again, I believe Jesus was and is the son of God but more than that is Lord himself.  I believe he died so that we might enter heaven and arose from death to return to be with the father.  I believe he will return.

You don’t believe any of that and it’s a shame but I can’t prove it to you.  Nor can anyone else.  I always tell people that it can’t be proven in court.  Like somebody already said that is where faith comes into play.  I struggled with that at one time.

Your friend knows none of this can be proven so he is playing a game.  The goal is to ridicule those of us who are believers and by extension to prop himself up as the smart guy in the room and thus superior.  I have a pretty good idea as to why but I’ve already said as much.

So in the end, it’s up to ya.  One day we will both find out who is wrong and who is right.  If I’m wrong it won’t cost me anything.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> I don’t see an expiration date on these powers but sure seems like SGD would like to have one.



?Nice try.  I wouldn’t “like” anything other than whatever it is.  I’m good.  You’re the one scrambling here.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I've searched the verses, and try as I might I cannot find Jesus's announcement for National Bring Em Back From the Dead Day.
> But it clearly says what it says
> “I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and* even greater works*, because I am going to be with the Father.”
> 
> Or maybe you are still making excuses instead of providing facts why what Jesus says in the bible just does not hold true.



Making excuses??. Not my place, man.  I’ve told you all I can tell you boys.  So now what?  It doesn’t bother me to have a couple of cowards mock me on the internet.  Life is way tougher than that.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> ?Nice try.  I wouldn’t “like” anything other than whatever it is.  I’m good.  You’re the one scrambling here.



Sure wouldn’t know it from all the hostility and grasping at straws in your posts.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Sure wouldn’t know it from all the hostility and grasping at straws in your posts.


Hostility?  Not me.  I think you’re seeing what you’re looking for there.  I see some passive aggression on your part but that’s no big surprise.  A guy who is a member of an internet board dedicated mostly to hunting and fishing but only posts in the political and religious forums despite being a proud atheist is shouting loud and clear what his reason is for being here.  In that light your accusation of hostility on my part is especially telling.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Making excuses??. Not my place, man.  I’ve told you all I can tell you boys.  So now what?  It doesn’t bother me to have a couple of cowards mock me on the internet.  Life is way tougher than that.



So you’re presented with scriptures from your own holy book that says you should be able to perform supernatural acts that you can’t and you got nothin’. This is what I would expect from a religion that makes false claims. I’m not mad at you for it. You didn’t write the gospel of John and make these unfounded claims. Neither did we. We are just showing you they are there and it’s a problem for anyone who cares about the truth of the claims. If you’re not one of those people that’s fine. Just don’t try telling me it’s the inerrant word of god while ignoring these glaring issues.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Hostility?  Not me.  I think you’re seeing what you’re looking for there.  I see some passive aggression on your part but that’s no big surprise.  A guy who is a member of an internet board dedicated mostly to hunting and fishing but only posts in the political and religious forums despite being a proud atheist is shouting loud and clear what his reason is for being here.  In that light your accusation of hostility on my part is especially telling.



Yes you and everyone here can see it.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> So you’re presented with scriptures from your own holy book that says you should be able to perform supernatural acts that you can’t and you got nothin’. This is what I would expect from a religion that makes false claims. I’m not mad at you for it. You didn’t write the gospel of John and make these unfounded claims. Neither did we. We are just showing you they are there and it’s a problem for anyone who cares about the truth of the claims. If you’re not one of those people that’s fine. Just don’t try telling me it’s the inerrant word of god while ignoring these glaring issues.



You don’t get it, man.  You think you have the whole picture but you don’t.  Neither do I.  And said so about twenty posts back.  You ignored it because you were playing a game and wanted to try to embarrass me.  Even though I repeated that I don’t understand that passage and explained what I believe is the essential truth.

I don’t care what you think of me personally.  But you’re a liar with this routine if “I just wanted to show you...I’m just trying to get you to think... I just...”. This is all a lie and cowardly on your part besides.  It’s clear why you are here.  I could have a little more respect for you if you would just own it and stop hiding behind these pretenses.  As I said initially if the guys saying, “Come on, atlas, you’re better than this.”  I guess they are fooled but I am certain you are not better than that.  Like I said before, when a guy posts only in the political and religious forums...

Put another way, if you just listen, a man will tell you what his intentions are.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Yes you and everyone here can see it.



Cool story.?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> The only parlor tricks going on here are those being played by you and your pal.  Is it possible you and I don’t understand this scripture?


Explain why your god would make a book for his followers and potential that they are unable to understand.



South GA Dawg said:


> Once again, I believe Jesus was and is the son of God but more than that is Lord himself.  I believe he died so that we might enter heaven and arose from death to return to be with the father.  I believe he will return.


Ok



South GA Dawg said:


> You don’t believe any of that and it’s a shame but I can’t prove it to you.  Nor can anyone else.  I always tell people that it can’t be proven in court.  Like somebody already said that is where faith comes into play.  I struggled with that at one time.


Why is it a shame?



South GA Dawg said:


> Your friend knows none of this can be proven so he is playing a game.  The goal is to ridicule those of us who are believers and by extension to prop himself up as the smart guy in the room and thus superior.  I have a pretty good idea as to why but I’ve already said as much.


Why are the words of what you worship so hard to prove?
My friends and I want to speak with the at least one person who is able to not only worship a god but a person that understands what that god is talking about and can explain it using verifiable facts.
Is that honestly too much to ask of a God and Guide Book that is touted as being the Ultimate Truth?



South GA Dawg said:


> So in the end, it’s up to ya.  One day we will both find out who is wrong and who is right.  If I’m wrong it won’t cost me anything.


You have it narrowed down to 2 scenarios.  There are countless possibilities. If you are wrong there is no way to know what, if anything, happens later.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Making excuses??. Not my place, man.  I’ve told you all I can tell you boys.  So now what?  It doesn’t bother me to have a couple of cowards mock me on the internet.  Life is way tougher than that.


Cowards?
Are we hiding from you?
Did I/we trick you into participating in this thread?
Or did you come in here running your mouth calling people names and diagnosing us?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Explain why your god would make a book for his followers and potential that they are unable to understand.
> 
> 
> Ok
> ...



You want no such thing.  If you wanted what you say you want you wouldn’t be talking to guys on an internet outdoors forum about it.  You would go somewhere else.  Your intentions are clear and there is nothing anybody could possibly say that you would accept.  You don’t simply have questions and aren’t honestly seeking answers.  I know why you’re here whether you want to come right out and say so or not.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Hostility?  Not me.  I think you’re seeing what you’re looking for there.  I see some passive aggression on your part but that’s no big surprise.  A guy who is a member of an internet board dedicated mostly to hunting and fishing but only posts in the political and religious forums despite being a proud atheist is shouting loud and clear what his reason is for being here.  In that light your accusation of hostility on my part is especially telling.


Yet here you are as well....


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Cowards?
> Are we hiding from you?
> Did I/we trick you into participating in this thread?
> Or did you come in here running your mouth calling people names and diagnosing us?



Yes.  Cowards.  Nope and nope.  What you’re running from is the truth of why you are here.  But I already know.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Yet here you are as well....



Yeah.  Did you think I would just run away?  Rong.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> You want no such thing.  If you wanted what you say you want you wouldn’t be talking to guys on an internet outdoors forum about it.  You would go somewhere else.  Your intentions are clear and there is nothing anybody could possibly say that you would accept.  You don’t simply have questions and aren’t honestly seeking answers.  I know why you’re here whether you want to come right out and say so or not.


Am I in the fishing portion of this site?
The hunting?
The shooting?
Or am I in the section that is made specifically for this type of discussion?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Yes.  Cowards.  Nope and nope.  What you’re running from is the truth of why you are here.  But I already know.


Cowards how?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Am I in the fishing portion of this site?
> The hunting?
> The shooting?
> Or am I in the section that is made specifically for this type of discussion?


Do you ever post anywhere else?  Your buddy doesn’t other than the pf.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Yeah.  Did you think I would just run away?  Rong.


You are accusing us of doing the same thing you are doing.
In one breath you question us why we are here on an outdoor site and you are here also...no different


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Do you ever post anywhere else?  Your buddy doesn’t other than the pf.


A simple search will answer that. 
But yes I do.
In the firearms forum.
Or, is that somehow not to your standards either?
What is the sites criteria for not being a cowardly poster?
How many different forums must a person participate in to count?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Cowards how?



The pretenses of “Oh we are just here trying to understand... we just want to talk to a believer who...we just want you to think... we just want to understand...”

These are all lies.  It’s clear that what you both want is an internet confrontation followed by an opportunity to ridicule Christians for their beliefs because you hate what they believe.  Acting as if anything else is the case is cowardly.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> You are accusing us of doing the same thing you are doing.
> In one breath you question us why we are here on an outdoor site and you are here also...no different



??


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> A simple search will answer that.
> But yes I do.
> In the firearms forum.
> Or, is that somehow not to your standards either?
> ...



?Obtusesness they name is bullethead.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> The pretenses of “Oh we are just here trying to understand... we just want to talk to a believer who...we just want you to think... we just want to understand...”
> 
> These are all lies.  It’s clear that what you both want is an internet confrontation followed by an opportunity to ridicule Christians for their beliefs because you hate what they believe.  Acting as if anything else is the case is cowardly.


Those are accusations by you. Unproven opinion.
Not lies by us.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> ?Obtusesness they name is bullethead.


Ok so you got your answer that I post elsewhere and now you have nothing but more lipping off.
I can see why you need a god


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Those are accusations by you. Unproven opinion.
> Not lies by us.


??You can’t be scared all your life.   Come on and man up.  You might feel better.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Ok so you got your answer that I post elsewhere and now you have nothing but more lipping off.
> I can see why you need a god



You need him too.  Running from him is why you are so angry and miserable.  If exposing your lies is lipping off then yeah I’m a lipper offer.?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> ??You can’t be scared all your life.   Come on and man up.  You might feel better.


Scared of what?
Explain instead of claim...that is what we ask of everyone in here.
When you dont or cant then you blow off.
What do i need to man up about?
What am I scared of?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> You need him too.  Running from him is why you are so angry and miserable.  If exposing your lies is lipping off then yeah I’m a lipper offer.?


If him cant catch up to me him aint all that.
Angry and Miserable...classy SGD

Anytime you want to tell me what I am lying about and prove it, go right ahead.
Otherwise it is yet another unprovable statement made by you.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Scared of what?
> Explain instead of claim...that is what we ask of everyone in here.
> When you dont or cant then you blow off.
> What do i need to man up about?
> What am I scared of?


??It’s starting to seem like you’re scared of everything.  Of course if I thought the world was ruled by cold impersonal forces and everything was just random and there was no ultimate justice maybe I would be in the same shape you’re in.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> If him cant catch up to me him aint all that.
> Angry and Miserable...classy SGD



You’re a fine one to lecture someone else on class.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> ??It’s starting to seem like you’re scared of everything.  Of course if I thought the world was ruled by cold impersonal forces and everything was just random and there was no ultimate justice maybe I would be in the same shape you’re in.


I mean after dealing with you I can fully see why you think that way, and I now better understand why you absolutely cannot back any of it up with examples and then proof to  back up those examples.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> You’re a fine one to lecture someone else on class.


Thank you!


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

Ok, playtime with SGD is over.  You two are beginning to bore me and you especially there bullet Bob.  Now you’re just playing, “I know you are but what am I?”  Amazing how quickly a couple of self styled thinking men devolve into that.  Have a great day and an even better tomorrow.  God loves you anyway even though you hate him and so do I even though you hate me.  I’m gonna pray for you both.  The last word is yours.?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> You don’t get it, man.  You think you have the whole picture but you don’t.  Neither do I.  And said so about twenty posts back.  You ignored it because you were playing a game and wanted to try to embarrass me.  Even though I repeated that I don’t understand that passage and explained what I believe is the essential truth.
> 
> I don’t care what you think of me personally.  But you’re a liar with this routine if “I just wanted to show you...I’m just trying to get you to think... I just...”. This is all a lie and cowardly on your part besides.  It’s clear why you are here.  I could have a little more respect for you if you would just own it and stop hiding behind these pretenses.  As I said initially if the guys saying, “Come on, atlas, you’re better than this.”  I guess they are fooled but I am certain you are not better than that.  Like I said before, when a guy posts only in the political and religious forums...
> 
> Put another way, if you just listen, a man will tell you what his intentions are.



More hostility. ?

You go on pretending not to understand the plain english in these passages and I’ll go on taking them at face value until someone can show me what John really meant to say. ??


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Ok, playtime with SGD is over.  You two are beginning to bore me and you especially there bullet Bob.  Now you’re just playing, “I know you are but what am I?”  Amazing how quickly a couple of self styled thinking men devolve into that.  Have a great day and an even better tomorrow.  God loves you anyway even though you hate him and so do I even though you hate me.  I’m gonna pray for you both.  The last word is yours.?


Well, Bye!


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Ok, playtime with SGD is over.  You two are beginning to bore me and you especially there bullet Bob.  Now you’re just playing, “I know you are but what am I?”  Amazing how quickly a couple of self styled thinking men devolve into that.  Have a great day and an even better tomorrow.  God loves you anyway even though you hate him and so do I even though you hate me.  I’m gonna pray for you both.  The last word is yours.?


Gotta play to the level of the competition.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Do you ever post anywhere else?  Your buddy doesn’t other than the pf.



That’s not true actually. What does your religion have to say about people who tell falsehoods?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> Ok, playtime with SGD is over.  You two are beginning to bore me and you especially there bullet Bob.  Now you’re just playing, “I know you are but what am I?”  Amazing how quickly a couple of self styled thinking men devolve into that.  Have a great day and an even better tomorrow.  God loves you anyway even though you hate him and so do I even though you hate me.  I’m gonna pray for you both.  The last word is yours.?



^If I was a christian this would make me cringe.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> ??It’s starting to seem like you’re scared of everything.  Of course if I thought the world was ruled by cold impersonal forces and everything was just random and there was no ultimate justice maybe I would be in the same shape you’re in.


Soooo, your god is in charge here?
Heck of a job.
Viruses, famine, rape, murders, war.. 
Wait come to think of it, THAT is the bible too.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Scared of what?
> Explain instead of claim...that is what we ask of everyone in here.
> When you dont or cant then you blow off.
> What do i need to man up about?
> What am I scared of?



If those scriptures were true this is not the response we would be getting.

Here is the response that would be expected:

John 14

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Believe me for the miracles if no other reason. Watch me raise Lazarus who has been in the grave for four days.

“Yes of course this passage in John is true. Let’s go to the morgue and I’ll show you.”

Instead we get anger, denial and personal attacks. A bunch of red herrings. Exactly what I would expect from a believer who knows they can’t defend the claim.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> If those scriptures were true this is not the response we would be getting.
> 
> Here is the response that would be expected:
> 
> ...


We didnt have to walk through the entire pasture to know what we were stepping in there. I had my nose to the wind from the beginning.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> If those scriptures were true this is not the response we would be getting.
> 
> Here is the response that would be expected:
> 
> ...


In his defense he did say that he cannot understand it and cannot explain it so when you are armed with no knowledge you cannot defend it so that gets us exactly the type of responses we had seen.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> How did my golf game get into y'alls conversation?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Ok. I’m providing you with scripture that makes specific claims. First you try to use metaphor to defend it and when that doesn’t work you just call me clueless. Is this really the best you can do? Don’t just tell me I’ve got it wrong. That’s a mere assertion. Show me where my error is. These aren’t my claims they are the claims of the author of the gospel of John.


Yes, you’re clueless. Unfortunately, YOU do not get to decide the rules. First, you assume / assert something physical out of raising the dead when the Bible is slam full of being dead in sin.

According to the Bible, Jesus physically raised the dead - I’m not assuming it’s a metaphor, but there’s enough scripture that places the value of a soul being saved above anything else.

You’re wrong because you only consider things in a manner that you’re willing to accept the outcome. You’re NOT objectively reading anything in scripture.

Everything Jesus did in the Bible also has a spiritual meaning / lesson.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Yes, you’re clueless. Unfortunately, YOU do not get to decide the rules. First, you assume / assert something physical out of raising the dead when the Bible is slam full of being dead in sin.
> 
> According to the Bible, Jesus physically raised the dead - I’m not assuming it’s a metaphor, but there’s enough scripture that places the value of a soul being saved above anything else.
> 
> ...



The key there is he is only willing to consider what he wants to consider.  But again, he had an agenda from the start.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> If those scriptures were true this is not the response we would be getting.
> 
> Here is the response that would be expected:
> 
> ...


First, are the scriptures wrong, or are the “believers” not really believing what they say?

Do you even consider that we all may have lack of faith, or is the conclusion going to automatically be that the scriptures are wrong?

You looking to solve the real issue, or looking to prove the Bible wrong? If you’re looking to prove the Bible wrong, you’ll never stop.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Yes, you’re clueless. Unfortunately, YOU do not get to decide the rules. First, you assume / assert something physical out of raising the dead when the Bible is slam full of being dead in sin.
> 
> According to the Bible, Jesus physically raised the dead - I’m not assuming it’s a metaphor, but there’s enough scripture that places the value of a soul being saved above anything else.
> 
> ...



The difference between me and you is I’m taking the author of John seriously. You aren’t. He repeatedly uses the same terminology for miracles that is being used in this passage. He’s talking about miracles and he’s not restricting which of the miracles he has performed including physical resurrection which we both agree is one of the miracles attributed to him. Not only does he not place restrictions on which miracles he says those who believe will perform even greater miracles than he did. We know the expectation that believers would be able to perform physical resurrection both because that expectation is set in the passage bullet shared from Matthew and because Acts chapter 9 claims Peter performed a resurrection. So the idea that John here intended to convey something other than exactly what he said is just wishful thinking on your part.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

Here you go Atlas - since this hinges on “Believers”, what is a believer? How in-depth can you explain what a believer is, what does it mean to say “I’m a believer”? 

What separates a believer from someone that says they believe?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> The difference between me and you is I’m taking the author of John seriously. You aren’t. He repeatedly uses the same terminology for miracles that is being used in this passage. He’s talking about miracles and he’s not restricting which of the miracles he has performed including physical resurrection which we both agree is one of the miracles attributed to him. Not only does he not place restrictions on which miracles he says those who believe will perform even greater miracles than he did. We know the expectation that believers would be able to perform physical resurrection both because that expectation is set in the passage bullet shared from Matthew and because Acts chapter 9 claims Peter performed a resurrection. So the idea that John here intended to convey something other than exactly what he said is just wishful thinking on your part.


No, I’m trying to see if you’re one sided on how you want this to turn out.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> First, are the scriptures wrong, or are the “believers” not really believing what they say?
> 
> Do you even consider that we all may have lack of faith, or is the conclusion going to automatically be that the scriptures are wrong?
> 
> You looking to solve the real issue, or looking to prove the Bible wrong? If you’re looking to prove the Bible wrong, you’ll never stop.



Yes! Let’s consider both of these possibilities. Either the scripture is untrue and people who believe in Jesus don’t have the powers he said they would have or the scripture is true and there are no believers. Which do you find more likely? That the author of John lied? Or that 2.2 billion Christians who claim to believe are lying?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Here you go Atlas - since this hinges on “Believers”, what is a believer? How in-depth can you explain what a believer is, what does it mean to say “I’m a believer”?
> 
> What separates a believer from someone that says they believe?



Jesus answers that in John 14.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Yes! Let’s consider both of these possibilities. Either the scripture is untrue and people who believe in Jesus don’t have the powers he said they would have or the scripture is true and there are no believers. Which do you find more likely? That the author of John lied? Or that 2.2 billion Christians who claim to believe are lying?


I’m still leaning towards your lack of understanding. You really haven’t shown an in depth understanding of scripture. You have a good understanding, but it’s your own.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> I’m still leaning towards your lack of understanding. You really haven’t shown an in depth understanding of scripture. You have a good understanding, but it’s your own.



Guess you don’t want to consider those possibilities after all. I’m willing to. Why aren’t you? Are you a believer? You tell me.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> The key there is he is only willing to consider what he wants to consider.  But again, he had an agenda from the start.



Quite rich coming from you.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> I’m still leaning towards your lack of understanding. You really haven’t shown an in depth understanding of scripture. You have a good understanding, but it’s your own.


Spotlite,  honest question, if Atlas's understanding is his own...
Where does yours come from and who does it belong to?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Guess you don’t want to consider those possibilities after all. I’m willing to. Why aren’t you? Are you a believer? You tell me.



I will consider the scriptures being true. I won’t consider that every “believer” has the goods. 

I’ve seen hypocrisy, so I’m no fool, it’s alive and well, even in the church.

I have seen miracles, I have been instantly healed. I have never seen a physical dead man wake up, but I’ve seen a lot of spiritually dead resurrected. 

I’ve never seen black matter either.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Spotlite,  honest question, if Atlas's understanding is his own...
> Where does yours come from and who does it belong to?


I’ve seen “eye witnessed” some of those biblical things, he hadn’t seen any. And you’re going to be “wise” enough and try tell me I didn’t see it without any other explanation ?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> I’ve seen “eye witnessed” some of those biblical things, he hadn’t seen any. And you’re going to be “wise” enough and try tell me I didn’t see it without any other explanation ?


Now I'm intrigued. 
Do go on


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

Jesus continues...

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

If this is true then one believer could cure every case of this virus with a single prayer. So why isn’t that happening?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Now I'm intrigued.
> Do go on


You stay intrigued lol

But, if I’ve seen some, why would I doubt the rest can happen???


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> You stay intrigued lol
> 
> But, if I’ve seen some, why would I doubt the rest can happen???


If you are that blessed then you can also perform them.
The bible says you can.
Why doubt the bible?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Quite rich coming from you.


That’s my real name.  First name Quite, last name Rich.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> If you are that blessed then you can also perform them.
> The bible says you can.
> Why doubt the bible?


I just literally said I have no reason to doubt because I’ve personally experienced / eye witnessed some of it myself


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> I will consider the scriptures being true. I won’t consider that every “believer” has the goods.
> 
> I’ve seen hypocrisy, so I’m no fool, it’s alive and well, even in the church.
> 
> ...



Are we in agreement that according to these scriptures whoever is a believer will be able to perform the same miracles Jesus performed including physical resurrection? I’ll grant the “not a true believer” (because that is the criteria Jesus sets) exception to the rule but the rule remains. So the question then is where are the believers and we can start with you. Are you a believer? If so I would love to see you perform a physical resurrection as Jesus did. If not you, then we can leave aside the question of why you don’t really believe and stick with the question of where can we find a real believer that can raise someone who has been dead four days as Jesus did.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> I just literally said I have no reason to doubt because I’ve personally experienced / eye witnessed some of it myself



That’s awesome. So you’re a real believer then yes?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> That’s my real name.  First name Quite, last name Rich.



There’s a term in christian circles for someone who accuses others of the very thing they are guilty of. It suits you well.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Are we in agreement that according to these scriptures whoever is a believer will be able to perform the same miracles Jesus performed including physical resurrection? I’ll grant the “not a true believer” (because that is the criteria Jesus sets) exception to the rule but the rule remains. So the question then is where are the believers and we can start with you. Are you a believer? If so I would love to see you perform a physical resurrection as Jesus did. If not you, then we can leave aside the question of why you don’t really believe and stick with the question of where can we find a real believer that can raise someone who has been dead four days as Jesus did.


Yes, now go find all those other requirements that make you a believer. Find all the scriptures that will hinder prayer, too. Then we will talk. You gotta connect all the dots Atlas, a few scriptures is called cherry picking.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> I just literally said I have no reason to doubt because I’ve personally experienced / eye witnessed some of it myself


Then use your god given abilities,  be like Frank Buck, and Bring Em Back Alive.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> If you are that blessed then you can also perform them.
> The bible says you can.
> Why doubt the bible?



Yes the Bible says that. Yes I’m a true believer. Yes the scripture is true because I can perform the miracles Jesus performed and even greater miracles. Here let me show you that the father may be glorified in the son.

That’s how easy the conversation should go if all of this passed muster and I would be sold. Instead we get all this tap dancing. What a jip.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> That’s awesome. So you’re a real believer then yes?


I have my short comings. I’ve told the story of my friend Jerry that was instantly headed of being deaf from a childhood. I’ve told you the story of my back, pain instantly gone, surgery canceled.

All you fellas could ever say was the body can heal itself. I guess more than once is still just coincidence that it decides to do it during prayer according to scripture, simultaneously? I guess that’s a fair assumption, if you don’t have a real answer.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Then use your god given abilities,  be like Frank Buck, and Bring Em Back Alive.


I saw 3 spiritually dead folks risen last week. 

Try not to be an arrogant dare devil until you know for sure of what you’re talking about. Not only could I be wrong, you can be, too.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Yes the Bible says that. Yes I’m a true believer. Yes the scripture is true because I can perform the miracles Jesus performed and even greater miracles. Here let me show you that the father may be glorified in the son.
> 
> That’s how easy the conversation should go if all of this passed muster and I would be sold. Instead we get all this tap dancing. What a jip.


Have fun with this, Atlas.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Yes, now go find all those other requirements that make you a believer. Find all the scriptures that will hinder prayer, too. Then we will talk. You gotta connect all the dots Atlas, a few scriptures is called cherry picking.



Don’t need to do that for two reasons. First because the criteria is set forth by Jesus in this passage and it is very simple and straight forward. “He that believeth on me”. That’s it at least according to John. Secondly, what ever t crossing and I dotting you want to insert to make this seem really complicated than what Jesus says it is go right ahead and then show me any believer who has it right. A promise that no one out of 2.2 billion believers can fulfill isn’t much of a promise. Or... we can forego all these excuses and consider another possibility which is that the scripture simply isn’t true. Are you willing to consider that possibility?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> I have my short comings. I’ve told the story of my friend Jerry that was instantly headed of being deaf from a childhood. I’ve told you the story of my back, pain instantly gone, surgery canceled.
> 
> All you fellas could ever say was the body can heal itself. I guess more than once is still just coincidence that it decides to do it during prayer according to scripture, simultaneously? I guess that’s a fair assumption, if you don’t have a real answer.


I don't doubt those things happened to you and your buddy.
Those things happen and are literally unexplainable.
But(you knew that was coming)
Those unexplainable things happen all over the world. To all types of people, who are members of all types of religions.  Which pray to all types of gods.
And(c'mon man, it's me..you HAD to know an And was in order)
Unexplainable healings, should have been deads and What The Heck Just Happeneds HAPPEN to people who have absolutely no religious affiliation or worship or pray to any gods.

Your turn


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> I saw 3 spiritually dead folks risen last week.
> 
> Try not to be an arrogant dare devil until you know for sure of what you’re talking about. Not only could I be wrong, you can be, too.


Ok, great. They have risen spiritually.
You have the chance to actually use YOU to prove scripture physically. 

"I could be wrong" does not sound convincing


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I don't doubt those things happened to you and your buddy.
> Those things happen and are literally unexplainable.
> But(you knew that was coming)
> Those unexplainable things happen all over the world. To all types of people, who are members of all types of religions.  Which pray to all types of gods.
> ...



Every cult makes claims of spiritual transformation. Not every cult claims it’s believers can perform physical resurrections. But this one does according to its own foundational text. Now that gets my attention. I’m here asking where’s the beef? So far the answer is just a bunch of excuses. ?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Ok, great. They have risen spiritually.
> You have the chance to actually use YOU to prove scripture physically.
> 
> "I could be wrong" does not sound convincing


Bullet, you’ve completely missed the point, again. I said I don’t doubt any of those things because I’ve witnessed some of them. 

I’m not really interested in convincing you, I think you’ve missed that one many times, too.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Don’t need to do that for two reasons. First because the criteria is set forth by Jesus in this passage and it is very simple and straight forward. “He that believeth on me”. That’s it at least according to John. Secondly, what ever t crossing and I dotting you want to insert to make this seem really complicated than what Jesus says it is go right ahead and then show me any believer who has it right. A promise that no one out of 2.2 billion believers can fulfill isn’t much of a promise. Or... we can forego all these excuses and consider another possibility which is that the scripture simply isn’t true. Are you willing to consider that possibility?


It’s a lot more honorable for you to simply admit that you don’t know, because honestly, you don’t. You don’t even know where to start with it.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Every cult makes claims of spiritual transformation. Not every cult claims it’s believers can perform physical resurrections. But this one does according to its own foundational text. Now that gets my attention. I’m here asking where’s the beef? So far the answer is just a bunch of excuses. ?


I like that Spotlite will at least try. 
I do agree that excuses get made as to why it won't work instead of Whoop There It Is, and I do see where right there in black and white gets shaded gray when Literal gets turned into Metaphorical also.
Bible says raised from the dead. But what it MEANS is SPIRITUALLY DEAD....
Maybe Lazarus and the gang were just raised spiritually also.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I don't doubt those things happened to you and your buddy.
> Those things happen and are literally unexplainable.
> But(you knew that was coming)
> Those unexplainable things happen all over the world. To all types of people, who are members of all types of religions.  Which pray to all types of gods.
> ...


I’m sure unexplainable things happen. I just happen to have an explanation for mine.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Bullet, you’ve completely missed the point, again. I said I don’t doubt any of those things because I’ve witnessed some of them.
> 
> I’m not really interested in convincing you, I think you’ve missed that one many times, too.


Spell out the point clearly.
Say it so I can't miss it


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> I’m sure unexplainable things happen. I just happen to have an explanation for mine.


You have a guess at who or what is responsible.
If you have anything more share it with us.
I get that YOURS is because of Jesus, its just the rest of them worldwide is unexplainable....


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I like that Spotlite will at least try.
> I do agree that excuses get made as to why it won't work instead of Whoop There It Is, and I do see where right there in black and white gets shaded gray when Literal gets turned into Metaphorical also.
> Bible says raised from the dead. But what it MEANS is SPIRITUALLY DEAD....
> Maybe Lazarus and the gang were just raised spiritually also.


The issue is non believers are looking for tangible evidence from something that requires faith. There is no faith required when you have the tangible for “proof”.

It’s just not how it works. That’s the reason a believer can never prove anything to you in a tangible manner. Most believers are ok with that because we know it’s not our place to prove anything.

I don’t expect you to believe me, never did. But, believe it or not, this thing is as real as you are ?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> The issue is non believers are looking for tangible evidence from something that requires faith. There is no faith required when you have the tangible for “proof”.
> 
> It’s just not how it works. That’s the reason a believer can never prove anything to you in a tangible manner. Most believers are ok with that because we know it’s not our place to prove anything.
> 
> I don’t expect you to believe me, never did. But, believe it or not, this thing is as real as you are ?


No, not according to the bible does it take faith.
FIVE HUNDRED people witnessed an ascension.  NONE of which were Christians at the time.
The tomb was empty..Roman guards didn't have faith .
Water to Wine, Walk on water, Lazarus coming back from the dead...
All Physical.  TANGIBLE  spotlite. No faith required.
There wasnt 30 people watching and only 2 saw it because they had faith.
Jesus said YOU can do what he has done and even greater.

Faith is the religious excuse as to why believers cannot produce evidence.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> No, not according to the bible does it take faith.
> FIVE HUNDRED people witnessed an ascension.  NONE of which were Christians at the time.
> The tomb was empty..Roman guards didn't have faith .
> Water to Wine, Walk on water, Lazarus coming back from the dead...
> ...


What part of “believe” and “faith” did you miss?? Faith - the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen.....

Jesus performed miracles. There are still physical miracles today. I just told you if two. But you’re still looking for a physical dead man before you believe. If you saw it happen, you still wouldn’t.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> What part of “believe” and “faith” did you miss?? Faith - the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen.....
> 
> Jesus performed miracles. There are still physical miracles today. I just told you if two. But you’re still looking for a physical dead man before you believe. If you saw it happen, you still wouldn’t.


Raise one up and try me


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> It’s a lot more honorable for you to simply admit that you don’t know, because honestly, you don’t. You don’t even know where to start with it.



What you don’t seem to grasp is I don’t need to know so whether I do or not is irrelevant.

John 10
*14*“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—

^The shepherd knows. I will know not because I am the shepherd and not because I know what the shepherd knows. I will know because the shepherd says his sheep can raise the dead. Again it’s Jesus himself who characterized miracles as evidence that glorified him and demonstrated that he was who he said. That evidence likewise applies to his believers.

John 14:12 isn’t the only place John makes a claim for those who believe. Perhaps most well know in John 3:16 it says “whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life”. Same criteria we find in John 14:12. Now if you want to tell me nobody can meet the criteria of that verse fine, just don’t turn around and tell me they meet the criteria of John 3:16.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> What part of “believe” and “faith” did you miss?? Faith - the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen.....
> 
> Jesus performed miracles. There are still physical miracles today. I just told you if two. But you’re still looking for a physical dead man before you believe. If you saw it happen, you still wouldn’t.


Believe has NOTHING to do with the miracles listed above.
Faith has nothing to do with the miracles listed above.
People who neither had faith nor believed witnessed them according to the bible.
Maybe seeing those miracles changed their minds.

You can raise someone from the dead. Change my mind


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I like that Spotlite will at least try.
> I do agree that excuses get made as to why it won't work instead of Whoop There It Is, and I do see where right there in black and white gets shaded gray when Literal gets turned into Metaphorical also.
> Bible says raised from the dead. But what it MEANS is SPIRITUALLY DEAD....
> Maybe Lazarus and the gang were just raised spiritually also.



In a spiritual grave with a spiritual stone and a spiritual stench and spiritual wrappings. Also kind of odd that he was only spiritually dead for four days and everyone was amazed to see him come out of his spiritual grave.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> In a spiritual grave with a spiritual stone and a spiritual stench and spiritual wrappings. Also kind of odd that he was only spiritually dead for four days and everyone was amazed to see him come out of his spiritual grave.


No Atlas, its not the way we say it and its not the way we understand Spotlite saying it. Yet again we are incapable of seeing the point which is never made.
See it's not this and it's not that, but it is this and that you just need spiritual faith to believe.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> The issue is non believers are looking for tangible evidence from something that requires faith. There is no faith required when you have the tangible for “proof”.
> 
> It’s just not how it works. That’s the reason a believer can never prove anything to you in a tangible manner. Most believers are ok with that because we know it’s not our place to prove anything.
> 
> I don’t expect you to believe me, never did. But, believe it or not, this thing is as real as you are ?



According to John that’s exactly how it works.

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Who should we believe here? Jesus or spotlite?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 5, 2020)

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

^Another example of Jesus using miracles to garner faith.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> According to John that’s exactly how it works.
> 
> 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
> 
> ...


Maybe due to our non believer and non faith goggles what we see in every bible is not what a believer with faith sees.
Almost like Rowdy Roddy Piper in the movie They Live.
We need to get some special Bill Dance polarized glasses to see what  they see?


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 5, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> There’s a term in christian circles for someone who accuses others of the very thing they are guilty of. It suits you well.


Come on atlas, you’re so much better than that.??


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 6, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Maybe due to our non believer and non faith goggles what we see in every bible is not what a believer with faith sees.
> Almost like Rowdy Roddy Piper in the movie They Live.
> We need to get some special Bill Dance polarized glasses to see what  they see?





> Maybe due to our non believer and non faith goggles what we see in every bible is not what a believer with faith sees.


I know you were being facetious but I actually think that ^ is true.
I would be willing to bet that if we (the believers/nonbelievers here) took a religious text from a religion that none of us was familiar with..... we would suddenly ALL be in MUCH closer agreement to what we think it says and means and would expect if it was true.


----------



## Israel (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> According to John that’s exactly how it works.
> 
> 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
> 
> ...



Then Spotlite has done his work.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 6, 2020)

Israel said:


> Then Spotlite has done his work.


I award you 5 points for that one. Pretty sharp


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

Israel said:


> Then Spotlite has done his work.



The rest of the passage indicates otherwise.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> The rest of the passage indicates otherwise.


Israel can correct me if Im wrong (which is highly likely) but.....
I think Israel was referring to -


> Who should we believe here? Jesus or spotlite?


Maybe I thought that was sharp because I'm not so sharp.
I still give him 5 points though


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> Israel can correct me if Im wrong (which is highly likely) but.....
> I think Israel was referring to -
> 
> Maybe I thought that was sharp because I'm not so sharp.
> I still give him 5 points though



I thought he was referring to the underlined bit.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> I know you were being facetious but I actually think that ^ is true.
> I would be willing to bet that if we (the believers/nonbelievers here) took a religious text from a religion that none of us was familiar with..... we would suddenly ALL be in MUCH closer agreement to what we think it says and means and would expect if it was true.


Walt, I honestly think that is true. Even at an early age I had to suspend my rational thoughts in order to believe what I was reading.
Many times then, since and in here now I am told in order to believe I should pay no attention to my inner feelings and just trust the bible.
Basically never mind all those alarms that are going off in my head, if I can overlook them then I can believe. Pay no attention to the guy behind the curtain so to speak. 
And then on the other hand, I see believers in Christianity disassemble a quote from the Qur'an and label it as preposterous when it says the same thing as in their religious book.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 6, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Walt, I honestly think that is true. Even at an early age I had to suspend my rational thoughts in order to believe what I was reading.
> Many times then, since and in here now I am told in order to believe I should pay no attention to my inner feelings and just trust the bible.
> Basically never mind all those alarms that are going off in my head, if I can overlook them then I can believe. Pay no attention to the guy behind the curtain so to speak.
> And then on the other hand, I see believers in Christianity disassemble a quote from the Qur'an and label it as preposterous when it says the same thing as in their religious book.





> I see believers in Christianity disassemble a quote from the Qur'an and label it as preposterous when it says the same thing as in their religious book


Thats ^ kind of my point.
"We" read scripture like a math problem. This scripture + that scripture SHOULD = ____.
My bet is that Christians would revert to reading a different religions scripture in much the same way.
They wouldnt "fill in the blanks" subconsciously with what they already believe.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

The Bible makes very grandiose claims concerning the power of prayer and faith. Not just when exercised by Jesus but by all believers. John tells us what evidence we should expect to see if the claims are true. We should see believers performing the same miracles and even greater ones than Jesus performed. If the nonbeliever who says these claims are false is right then we would expect prayer to Jesus to be no more effective than prayer to an empty milk jug. Two very different expected outcomes that can be put to the test. If prayer was as powerful as advertised I wouldn’t expect to get the run around when asking for the evidence of its power.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> Thats ^ kind of my point.
> "We" read scripture like a math problem. This scripture + that scripture SHOULD = ____.
> My bet is that Christians would revert to reading a different religions scripture in much the same way.
> They wouldnt "fill in the blanks" subconsciously with what they already believe.



John 14 does get used in sermons to confirm the power of prayer. Heard it many times myself. But that’s an environment where everyone already agrees.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

Looks like Benny Hinn and “2 billion” others are on this.

https://www.peacefmonline.com/pages/local/religion/202003/403985.php

Should we expect the virus to go away just as quickly as people are healed when they get up on stage with Hinn?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> What you don’t seem to grasp is I don’t need to know so whether I do or not is irrelevant.
> 
> John 10
> *14*“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—
> ...


You “knowing” is more critical than you think.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> According to John that’s exactly how it works.
> 
> 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
> 
> ...


Of course. But you’re still only on works being just physical. You’ve been given examples of some physical miracles, you don’t even belief that. 

I never said that physically dead man couldn’t be raised. I said I’ve witnessed a few things - that’s not one of them. Since I’ve witnessed a few things, I have no doubt the rest can still be done. 

So, let’s move on to your real point here - which is to determine there is no God because.......


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Looks like Benny Hinn and “2 billion” others are on this.
> 
> https://www.peacefmonline.com/pages/local/religion/202003/403985.php
> 
> Should we expect the virus to go away just as quickly as people are healed when they get up on stage with Hinn?


And unless the virus wipes out the earth..... their prayer will be miraculously successful.
And whenever I hear "Benny Hinn" I cant help but think of ...




What a shyster that guy is.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Looks like Benny Hinn and “2 billion” others are on this.
> 
> https://www.peacefmonline.com/pages/local/religion/202003/403985.php
> 
> Should we expect the virus to go away just as quickly as people are healed when they get up on stage with Hinn?


Interesting fact about Benny Hinn...Did you know that EVERY other organized religion in the world pays Benny Hinn NOT to adopt their religion?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

bullethead said:


> No Atlas, its not the way we say it and its not the way we understand Spotlite saying it. Yet again we are incapable of seeing the point which is never made.
> See it's not this and it's not that, but it is this and that you just need spiritual faith to believe.


You got it wrong, again lol


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> The rest of the passage indicates otherwise.


WHO does the works?? WHO are you looking to for the answer? (Or miracle)


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> You “knowing” is more critical than you think.



When Jesus performed miracles was it only believers that witnessed them or did non-believers also witness them?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> When Jesus performed miracles was it only believers that witnessed them or did non-believers also witness them?


See above. And I’m bringing you a truck load of coronavirus free popcorn lol


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Of course. But you’re still only on works being just physical. You’ve been given examples of some physical miracles, you don’t even belief that.
> 
> I never said that physically dead man couldn’t be raised. I said I’ve witnessed a few things - that’s not one of them. Since I’ve witnessed a few things, I have no doubt the rest can still be done.
> 
> So, let’s move on to your real point here - which is to determine there is no God because.......



No I'm not stuck on them only being just physical. I never once in this thread claimed that they were only physical. What I'm saying is that the works Jesus is referring to were physical. How do we know that? Because he implored the people to believe based on those works if nothing else. That suggests their faith was lacking and yet they were still able to witness the physical miracles he performed. If you're saying my lack of faith blinds me from being able to see a spiritual rebirth I will accept that. That places it outside my ability of perception. But a physical miracle is not outside that ability so let's focus on that.

The fact that you even need to move the goal posts from physical miracles to something that is non-physical, which is to say something that can't be objectively verified, makes my point.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 6, 2020)

RoosterTodd said:


> Interesting fact about Benny Hinn...Did you know that EVERY other organized religion in the world pays Benny Hinn NOT to adopt their religion?


On one hand I almost feel bad for the average Christian that these con men pollute their(your) religion.
On the other hand look at all those Christians aiding and abetting him.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> When Jesus performed miracles was it only believers that witnessed them or did non-believers also witness them?




Thanks. Looks like I'm gonna need it because my question is still unanswered.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> No I'm not stuck on them only being just physical. I never once in this thread claimed that they were only physical. What I'm saying is that the works Jesus is referring to were physical. How do we know that? Because he implored the people to believe based on those works if nothing else. That suggests their faith was lacking and yet they were still able to witness the physical miracles he performed. If you're saying my lack of faith blinds me from being able to see a spiritual rebirth I will accept that. That places it outside my ability of perception. But a physical miracle is not outside that ability so let's focus on that.
> 
> The fact that you even need to move the goal posts from physical miracles to something that is non-physical, which is to say something that can't be objectively verified, makes my point.


No goal post moved. The works are in the Father, not me. You’re looking to me for works, not the Father. THAT’S exactly the problem with walking into a morgue, you’ll always look to me ?

The works I’ve seen for myself helps build and establish my faith. I can’t do anything to build yours. Because I’ve seen some works, I have no doubt that the rest can be accomplished.

And, there is no greater work than bringing a soul into salvation.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

RoosterTodd said:


> Interesting fact about Benny Hinn...Did you know that EVERY other organized religion in the world pays Benny Hinn NOT to adopt their religion?



Didn't know that. Not sure why they would bother. Looks like he is already right at home with christianity.


----------



## Israel (Apr 6, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> Israel can correct me if Im wrong (which is highly likely) but.....
> I think Israel was referring to -
> 
> Maybe I thought that was sharp because I'm not so sharp.
> I still give him 5 points though


 
Oh, Walt, yer a durn sight sharper than the rest of the Mensa candidates.

Cuz I think you already know the only way to be dumber than a Mensa member is to  join.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Thanks. Looks like I'm gonna need it because my question is still unanswered.


Yes both believers and non believers witnessed Jesus perform miracles. You’re looking to me to perform them now, and that’s the problem and point I’ve wanted to make this whole time. Now I’m done.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> No goal post moved. The works are in the Father, not me. You’re looking to me for works, not the Father. THAT’S exactly the problem with walking into a morgue, you’ll always look to me ?
> 
> The works I’ve seen for myself helps build and establish my faith. I can’t do anything to build yours. Because I’ve seen some works, I have no doubt that the rest can be accomplished.
> 
> And, there is no greater work than bringing a soul into salvation.



Again John 14 answers that.

10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Yes I get that you are not the source of the power but rather the conduit. Just as Jesus claimed it was the father working through him. That said, "whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these". Doesn't say they might. Says they will.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Didn't know that. Not sure why they would bother. Looks like he is already right at home with christianity.


Just being sarcastic of course but if they don't, they should. He and those like him do great damage to Christianity.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Yes both believers and non believers witnessed Jesus perform miracles.



Thank you


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Again John 14 answers that.
> 
> 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
> 
> Yes I get that you are not the source of the power but rather the conduit. Just as Jesus claimed it was the father working through him. That said, "whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these". Doesn't say they might. Says they will.


Very true, BUT.....you’re still looking to me (believers) instead of Jesus. Not once have you tried looking to Jesus.

What I’m saying here is don’t base anything off of others. If this is as true as the Bible claims, and all us believers have it wrong in some fashion, you could be the only one that got it right if you put your faith / trust / confidence in Jesus (or the source of the power) rather than what you see in men.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

RoosterTodd said:


> Just being sarcastic of course but if they don't, they should. He and those like him do great damage to Christianity.



I think we would both agree he's a con man. He seems to have found a target rich audience with christians.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Very true, BUT.....you’re still looking to me (believers) instead of Jesus. Not once have you tried looking to Jesus.



Wait a minute. Jesus didn't do the miracles on his own authority. He, like you, was a conduit through which the fathers power to do miracles was performed. Yet people still looked to him to perform the miracles and he did while reminding them that the power wasn't from him but from the father. Not once in the bible does he fail to perform a miracle and then blame the observer for his failure because they were looking to him instead of looking to the father.

I don't find anywhere in scripture that says this ability of believers to do miracles stops working the moment a non-believer tries to observe the miracle. To the contrary, we see repeated accounts of non-believers witnessing the miracles.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Wait a minute. Jesus didn't do the miracles on his own authority. He, like you, was a conduit through which the fathers power to do miracles was performed. Yet people still looked to him to perform the miracles and he did while reminding them that the power wasn't from him but from the father. Not once in the bible does he fail to perform a miracle and then blame the observer for his failure because they were looking to him instead of looking to the father.
> 
> I don't find anywhere in scripture that says this ability of believers to do miracles stops working the moment a non-believer tries to observe the miracle. To the contrary, we see repeated accounts of non-believers witnessing the miracles.


Jesus was the Father in flesh, those that saw him knew this because of what they saw.

No need in babbling, those folks looked to Jesus, everyone else is told to look to Jesus. If you honestly want answers, you will, too. Your continued justification of looking to others will only indicate that you’re only agenda is to find fault.

We are a conduit, but you’re still to the “we” to open your eyes, not the Father.

Remember when I said connect all of the dots and stop cherry picking scriptures??? What does “according to your faith” mean to you?

What does honor your wife so your prayers are not hindered mean to you?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Jesus was the Father in flesh, those that saw him knew this because of what they saw.
> 
> No need in babbling, those folks looked to Jesus, everyone else is told to look to Jesus. If you honestly want answers, you will, too. Your continued justification of looking to others will only indicate that your only agenda is to find fault.



You look to Jesus. Jesus isn't here so I'm looking to you to fulfill the claim made in John 14:12 concerning the power of prayer. I understand the claim that the power is not of your own but rather the power of a god working through you that the god may be glorified. I get that. Now let's see it.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> You look to Jesus. Jesus isn't here so I'm looking to you to fulfill the claim made in John 14:12 concerning the power of prayer. I understand the claim that the power is not of your own but rather the power of a god working through you that the god may be glorified. I get that. Now let's see it.


See the edit in my post that you just quoted. Your problem has been pointed out, and you’ve admitted it.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> See the edit in my post that you just quoted. Your problem has been pointed out, and you’ve admitted it.



See John 14:12. 

Either John's claim is untrue or you're not a believer. There is no getting around that. I might buy that you or the people in your church aren't real believers. It's possible. But all christians? Maybe the gospel of John isn't true. That's also possible, I would say probable in light of the evidence.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> See John 14:12.
> 
> Either John's claim is untrue or you're not a believer. There is no getting around that. I might buy that you or the people in your church aren't real believers. It's possible. But all christians? Maybe the gospel of John isn't true. That's also possible, I would say probable in light of the evidence.


If you ever turn to God, he has his hands full lol ?

(For the record, John’s claim is true. But you do know that you have to read all the information. You can’t be that naive. It’s no different than instructions on a grill, of course you could just go ahead and ignite it before you fill it with gas, I mean it does say depress this button, depress the igniter and it will light ?)


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> If you ever turn to God, he has his hands full lol ?
> 
> (For the record, John’s claim is true. But you do know that you have to read all the information. You can’t be that naive. It’s no different than instructions on a grill, of course you could just go ahead and ignite it before you fill it with gas, I mean it does say depress this button, depress the igniter and it will light ?)



That's an awful analogy. Jesus says what believers WILL do. If you want to create a complex instruction set that's on you. I need not concern myself with it because the bottom line here is the claim of what those who believe him WILL do. It would be like the claim that you will cook a meal on the grill and I'm sitting here asking you when we can expect to see the meal and you're trying to lecture me about the instructions to use the grill. That's for you as the believer to figure out. What I see is 2.2 billion adherents and not a single fulfillment of the expectation set in John and a lot of tap dancing by those adherents when pressed on the issue.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> That's an awful analogy. Jesus says what believers WILL do. If you want to create a complex instruction set that's on you. I need not concern myself with it because the bottom line here is the claim of what those who believe him WILL do. It would be like the claim that you will cook a meal on the grill and I'm sitting here asking you when we can expect to see the meal and you're trying to lecture me about the instructions to use the grill. That's for you as the believer to figure out. What I see is 2.2 billion adherents and not a single fulfillment of the expectation set in John and a lot of tap dancing by those adherents when pressed on the issue.


I’m trying to lecture you on not leaning to your own understanding. You were told to put your trust in the source of the power, not me. If you refuse, or are unwilling to do that, and apply all scriptures, you’ll only keep tap dancing to your own beat.

Atlas, “ALL scripture is given” - why would you consider ignoring the others if you’re honestly looking for a real answer?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> I’m trying to lecture you on not leaning to your own understanding. You were told to put your trust in the source of the power, not me. If you refuse, or are unwilling to do that, and apply all scriptures, you’ll only keep tap dancing to your own beat.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


>


Outside of that, we hit a few private ponds in Harris county last week. Got in some decent shell cracker. (I live on the Troup / Harris line)


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Outside of that, we hit a few private ponds in Harris county last week. Got in some decent shell cracker. (I live on the Troup / Harris line)



Oh you're right in my area then. Good place to be especially at a time like this.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Oh you're right in my area then. Good place to be especially at a time like this.


Yes Sir, didn’t realize that until I recently saw your location.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Of course. But you’re still only on works being just physical. You’ve been given examples of some physical miracles, you don’t even belief that.
> 
> I never said that physically dead man couldn’t be raised. I said I’ve witnessed a few things - that’s not one of them. Since I’ve witnessed a few things, I have no doubt the rest can still be done.
> 
> So, let’s move on to your real point here - which is to determine there is no God because.......


Honestly, WHAT physical examples has he/we been given?
Do you mean like examples in the bible, qur'an, egyptian writings????


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Honestly, WHAT physical examples has he/we been given?
> Do you mean like examples in the bible, qur'an, egyptian writings????


We are still going somewhere buddy, just hang on. (Just research our threads / testimonies that you’ve knocked as everyone else in the world has experienced and refresh yourself)


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Yes both believers and non believers witnessed Jesus perform miracles. You’re looking to me to perform them now, and that’s the problem and point I’ve wanted to make this whole time. Now I’m done.


Scripture says you can perform miracles Spotlite. 
Have faith 
Believe
You can help many during this pandemic.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Very true, BUT.....you’re still looking to me (believers) instead of Jesus. Not once have you tried looking to Jesus.
> 
> What I’m saying here is don’t base anything off of others. If this is as true as the Bible claims, and all us believers have it wrong in some fashion, you could be the only one that got it right if you put your faith / trust / confidence in Jesus (or the source of the power) rather than what you see in men.


We don't need Jesus when his believers WILL do even greater things. 
Those are the words of Jesus.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

bullethead said:


> We don't need Jesus when his believers WILL do even greater things.
> Those are the words of Jesus.


Where did Jesus say we don’t need him?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> We are still going somewhere buddy, just hang on. (Just research our threads / testimonies that you’ve knocked as everyone else in the world has experienced and refresh yourself)


None of those things we have witnessed.
Truth be told,  people lie or tell what they think to be truth to them but what they say isn't necessarily true.
You, through God CAN raise someone from the dead and do even greater things.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Scripture says you can perform miracles Spotlite.
> Have faith
> Believe
> You can help many during this pandemic.


Lol it’s NOT me that’s still looking......


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Where did Jesus say we don’t need him?


You might.
Jesus's works came from the Father.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

bullethead said:


> None of those things we have witnessed.
> Truth be told,  people lie or tell what they think to be truth to them but what they say isn't necessarily true.
> You, through God CAN raise someone from the dead and do even greater things.


And there you have it. If you want to witness something, get off an internet  forum and out from behind a keyboard, put your work boots on and go with some missionaries. Put your money where your mouth is. If you have the guts to go, I will pay your way.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Lol it’s NOT me that’s still looking......


Nobody said you were.
You aren't DOING what Jesus said that WILL be able to do.

I'm not going to pretend to believe in order try (and fail) to perform a miracle  and then be told that I wasnt a true believer and that is why it didnt work.

You through your belief and faith already have an advantage to continue doing Jesus type miracles.
I am absolutely rooting for you.
Give the AAA guys a shout out on Fox when they are recording you and you'll help your religion out immensely.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

bullethead said:


> None of those things we have witnessed.
> Truth be told,  people lie or tell what they think to be truth to them but what they say isn't necessarily true.
> You, through God CAN raise someone from the dead and do even greater things.


So basically, you want some physical events, but you think I’m lying???


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> And there you have it. If you want to witness something, get off an internet  forum and out from behind a keyboard, put your work boots on and go with some missionaries. Put your money where your mouth is. If you have the guts to go, I will pay your way.


I do a lot for the less fortunate because no god will.
You are convinced humans must do gods work and you are right because it does not get done otherwise.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

bullethead said:


> You aren't DOING what Jesus said that WILL be able to do.


 you don’t know that.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> So basically, you want some physical events, but you think I’m lying???


Basically, according to Jesus YOU can go heal COVID19 patients.
Go do it and I'll believe you.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I do a lot for the less fortunate because no god will.
> You are convinced humans must do gods work and you are right because it does not get done otherwise.


If you really felt confident that there’s no God, you wouldn’t be looking for what you might have overlooked. 

It’s been over 45 years since I was concerned about Santa. 

You can continue with the nonsense. When it gets serious again, I will chime back in ?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> you don’t know that.


You cant even simply convince a handful of heathens let alone perform a miracle along the lines in the bible. 
In instances like this I only know what I can witness.
You can have me witness it.
Let me be one of your 500


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> you don’t know that.




So far I have yet to see anything from you that couldn't have come from a follower of a false religion.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> If you really felt confident that there’s no God, you wouldn’t be looking for what you might have overlooked.
> 
> It’s been over 45 years since I was concerned about Santa.
> 
> You can continue with the nonsense. When it gets serious again, I will chime back in ?


No, not so at all.
Im not looking for anything that I've overlooked in Christianity.
Christianity is all we talk about in here so I am limited to gods to chat about.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> If you really felt confident that there’s no God, you wouldn’t be looking for what you might have overlooked.
> 
> It’s been over 45 years since I was concerned about Santa.
> 
> You can continue with the nonsense. When it gets serious again, I will chime back in ?


You should chime back in when you have new excuses, answers with evidence that backs the answers up, or when you perform what Jesus said you WILL do.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> So far I have yet to see anything from you that couldn't have come from a follower of a false religion.


Well, you are close enough to go to church with me, I can pick you up.

The only way to witness anything is with your eyes, right?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

bullethead said:


> No, not so at all.
> Im not looking for anything that I've overlooked in Christianity.
> Christianity is all we talk about in here so I am limited to gods to chat about.


Please don’t make us research the threads where you literally stated that  you ask questions to see if you’ve overlooked anything lol ?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

bullethead said:


> You should chime back in when you have new excuses, answers with evidence that backs the answers up, or when you perform what Jesus said you WILL do.


Come on then. If you have to witness it, you gotta get off of here and go.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Well, you are close enough to go to church with me, I can pick you up.
> 
> The only way to witness anything is with your eyes, right?



You have some faith healers there? I don’t have any cadavers to resurrect but I might be able to find an amputee that would like to have their limb restored.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Please don’t make us research the threads where you literally stated that  you ask questions to see if you’ve overlooked anything lol ?


Overlooked anything about a God or Gods.
Not a religion


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Come on then. If you have to witness it, you gotta get off of here and go.


50 years, Nuttin so far.
You are grossly mistaken if you think this takes up the majority of my life or time.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

Do the two of you want to eyewitness anything, or keep playing on the internet. Bullet, I told you I’d pay your way, Atlas, I told you I’d pick you up. 
Until then, those shell cracker are biting.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

bullethead said:


> 50 years, Nuttin so far.
> You are grossly mistaken if you think this takes up the majority of my life or time.


It’s consuming you and you know it lol ?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> It’s consuming you and you know it lol ?


Hardly


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Do the two of you want to eyewitness anything, or keep playing on the internet. Bullet, I told you I’d pay your way, Atlas, I told you I’d pick you up.
> Until then, those shell cracker are biting.


If you tell me that I am guaranteed to see an amputee re-grow a limb and or a dead person come back to life I WILL drive to you AND donate $10,000 to your church or charity.
I'm not playing with subjective miracles or miracles of interpretation. I'm not sitting through testimonies.
I will have a news reporter along with me so the entire world will know about it.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> Do the two of you want to eyewitness anything, or keep playing on the internet. Bullet, I told you I’d pay your way, Atlas, I told you I’d pick you up.
> Until then, those shell cracker are biting.



Heck yeah! That's what I've been asking for from post 1 on this thread. You still haven't answered my question. Tell me what I can expect and don't give me something that's on par with what I could expect from a false religion. I don't want to hear about spiritual awakenings or tingly feelings or grandma's eczema was healed any other sort of unverifiable woo. I'm talking resurrecting the dead, restoring amputated limbs, walking on water, heck we can even set up a prayer test for divine revelation. If that's what we're talking about count me in. No need to pick me up. Tell me what I can expect and I'll even be sure to record it. Folks are gonna want to see this.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

bullethead said:


> If you tell me that I am guaranteed to see an amputee re-grow a limb and or a dead person come back to life I WILL drive to you AND donate $10,000 to your church or charity.
> I'm not playing with subjective miracles or miracles of interpretation. I'm not sitting through testimonies.
> I will have a news reporter along with me so the entire world will know about it.



I know it's not canon but in the Acts of Peter, Peter uses a talking dog to summon Simon the magician.

_And Peter, seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls._

_And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed._


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> I know it's not canon but in the Acts of Peter, Peter uses a talking dog to summon Simon the magician.
> 
> _And Peter, seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls._
> 
> _And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed._


I give $300 for talking dogs.
$500 if I can take him home.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 6, 2020)

You will get some preaching and understanding before you’ll get anything. You’re not invited to a show. They have those in Hollywood.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> You will get some preaching and understanding before you’ll get anything. You’re not invited to a show. They have those in Hollywood.


Those are the show.

I am starting to understand this a little better.
"I" understand better because "My" church is better because "Our" Pastor is more capable.
My problem is that I didn't have the right place with the right people.
I have better things to do than travel 800 miles to attend church.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

Spotlite said:


> You will get some preaching and understanding before you’ll get anything. You’re not invited to a show. They have those in Hollywood.



Don’t need church for that when we’ve got you here to pass on that understanding. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. John 14 makes an extraordinary claim. If you or anyone in your church ever wants to step up to that plate and prove John 14:12 true let me know. Until then I’ll treat the claim as one asserted without evidence.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 6, 2020)

?And you two wonder why nobody wants to talk to you about this.  Because they know exactly what they’re going to get from you.

I will say that even though I go to church I don’t like those church people.  Anybody who has gone much at all knows who I’m talking about.  And when Jesus was on earth some of the most trouble he had was with church people.

However, you two typify the worst of stereotypes about atheists.  If you want to call that hostility and a personal attack it’s fine with me.  It’s neither hostile or a personal attack.  Simply true.  Spotlite, you’re a good guy but you should have known where this was headed.  It was all atlas wanted from the beginning because this is what he lives for on this board, arguing with people and and trying to cast himself as a free thinker and an intellectual.  He is neither.

As far as I can tell, bullet Bob just desperately wants to impress atlas and be accepted by him.  How sad is that?

Keep it up though, you two.  You serve a purpose whether you mean to or not.?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> ?And you two wonder why nobody wants to talk to you about this.  Because they know exactly what they’re going to get from you.
> 
> I will say that even though I go to church I don’t like those church people.  Anybody who has gone much at all knows who I’m talking about.  And when Jesus was on earth some of the most trouble he had was with church people.
> 
> ...


You never cease to show how little you really South Georgie Doog,
I am not an Atheist

All I want is to chat with brainiacs like you.
I'm lonely, hold me Georgie Doog


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 6, 2020)

bullethead said:


> You never cease to show how little you really South Georgie Doog,
> I am not an Atheist
> 
> All I want is to chat with brainiacs like you.
> I'm lonely, hold me Georgie Doog



That’s atals’ job.  If I hold you he might get his feelings hurt.?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> That’s atals’ job.  If I hold you he might get his feelings hurt.?


Dookie Dogg it is your wit that keeps me sticking around. I knew we didnt bore you enough, you couldn't stay away.


----------



## bullgator (Apr 6, 2020)

I don’t believe in atheists.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

SGD I don't know why you even bother posting in this forum because you've added absolutely nothing to the conversation. At least spotlite made an effort. We've been at this long enough that both sides pretty much know what to expect but it's still interesting to engage. You're more than welcome if you ever have something of substance to offer which I'm sorry to say the prospects are not looking good at this point. Your posts are dripping with bitterness. It obviously really bothers you that there are people on here that challenge the veracity of the bible. Perhaps my signature quote applies to you.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 6, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> SGD I don't know why you even bother posting in this forum because you've added absolutely nothing to the conversation. At least spotlite made an effort. We've been at this long enough that both sides pretty much know what to expect but it's still interesting to engage. You're more than welcome if you ever have something of substance to offer which I'm sorry to say the prospects are not looking good at this point. Your posts are dripping with bitterness. It obviously really bothers you that there are people on here that challenge the veracity of the bible. Perhaps my signature quote applies to you.



“something of substance to offer”?. You first, man.

Dripping with bitterness?  Don’t attribute to bitterness what is easily attributable to nausea.  I just don’t have a very high tolerance for your particular brand of pretension.

I hate to shatter your little ego but you are far from the first of your kind that I’ve encountered.  I’ve debated atheists that had far more on the ball than you.  Thing was, they just weren’t as obnoxious and such a classic case of the Dunning/Krueger effect playing out before my eyes.  In that way alone are you unique.

Sorry but I cant see your sig line.  Bet it’s a zinger.  Something you plagiarized and passed off as your own thoughts I’m sure.


----------



## Danuwoa (Apr 6, 2020)

bullethead said:


> Dookie Dogg it is your wit that keeps me sticking around. I knew we didnt bore you enough, you couldn't stay away.



You got me.  You’re just too interesting.?


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 6, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> “something of substance to offer”?. You first, man.
> 
> Dripping with bitterness?  Don’t attribute to bitterness what is easily attributable to nausea.  I just don’t have a very high tolerance for your particular brand of pretension.
> 
> ...



It's probably just as well for the believers here that you opt out.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 6, 2020)

South GA Dawg said:


> You got me.  You’re just too interesting.?


Thanks Ginger Pup


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 7, 2020)

bullethead said:


> I give $300 for talking dogs.
> $500 if I can take him home.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 7, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


>


You just earned yourself $300 worth of Communion Wafers


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 7, 2020)

bullethead said:


> You just earned yourself $300 worth of Communion Wafers


Receiving Communion used to horrify me. For whatever reason the taste and my taste buds just didnt get along.
I would quake in my Sunday best shoes that I was going to vomit all over the Priest in front of the whole church.
Ahhh Good memories.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 8, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> Receiving Communion used to horrify me. For whatever reason the taste and my taste buds just didnt get along.
> I would quake in my Sunday best shoes that I was going to vomit all over the Priest in front of the whole church.
> Ahhh Good memories.



Was it the idea of eating human flesh and blood? Or the idea you might bring judgment on yourself if you took communion when you weren’t supposed to?


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 8, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> Was it the idea of eating human flesh and blood? Or the idea you might bring judgment on yourself if you took communion when you weren’t supposed to?





> Was it the idea of eating human flesh and blood?


Never looked it that way. It was the Body of Christ. The End. No other thought process was involved.


> Or the idea you might bring judgment on yourself if you took communion when you weren’t supposed to?


Once I seriously started questioning the whole organized religion thing, I stopped receiving Communion. Not because I was "rebelling" but because I wasnt in the correct "frame of mind"/state of grace to receive it.
To be honest though, towards the end, there were times I received Communion when technically I shouldn't have.
It was strictly the taste/consistency. Just one of those things where the second it hits your tongue your taste buds/body says NO! I dont want this! Totally involuntary.


----------



## atlashunter (Apr 8, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> Never looked it that way. It was the Body of Christ. The End. No other thought process was involved.
> 
> Once I seriously started questioning the whole organized religion thing, I stopped receiving Communion. Not because I was "rebelling" but because I wasnt in the correct "frame of mind"/state of grace to receive it.
> To be honest though, towards the end, there were times I received Communion when technically I shouldn't have.
> It was strictly the taste/consistency. Just one of those things where the second it hits your tongue your taste buds/body says NO! I dont want this! Totally involuntary.



That’s interesting. I asked about the eating flesh thing because I guess for Catholics it’s more literal. I never knew that until a few years ago.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 8, 2020)

atlashunter said:


> That’s interesting. I asked about the eating flesh thing because I guess for Catholics it’s more literal. I never knew that until a few years ago.


Yes, it was believed to literally be the Body of Christ.
No, it wasnt translated to "Im eating flesh".
That kind of thought process just doesnt happen when you are well indoctrinated


----------



## FrChs28 (May 19, 2020)

Faith: is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see. Hebrews 11:1

Just my two cents. Stay well.....


----------



## Israel (May 20, 2020)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes, it was believed to literally be the Body of Christ.
> No, it wasnt translated to "Im eating flesh".
> That kind of thought process just doesnt happen when you are well indoctrinated


When I was a child it was not unusual to earn a good chastising (good sometimes meaning contact) if there was any disdain shown the meal. My dad was quick to recognize and remind us kids of our mother's labors in preparation. To despise the meal was by extension a despising of the preparer.

Of course we kids had no sense of that...we just liked what we liked, disliked what we disliked and never saw it as any reflection of our esteem of mom. Did we "like" that mostly she cooked with my dad in mind...of dinners made for his return from work? Were we more delighted when there was an intersection of all our "likes"? 

But dad had a point. I didn't see it then. Couldn't. Along with "you kids have no idea of what it is to be hungry". He was right about that too. To despise the fruit of someone's labor...is not a stretch by any means, of holding that laborer in low esteem.

And the food. The "raw" material. That wasn't delivered free to my household. My dad's time at work (did I ever really consider he might have preferred to sit at a bar with friends...or be fishing himself, instead?) was translated into $$$ and thence $$$ to food. And heat, and mortgage paid, and toys, and beds, and clothes, and blankets, and fishing trips, and medical expenses...etc...

It is not a stretch for any _thinking person _to see the consumption of his time and labor at work that so translated to $$$ for care...was a consumption of his life...and in a sense only a _non thinking person_ would deny. Children are stupid though.

They come thinking all is set up for them...with little in appreciation...thinking that parents must just automatically "like" to labor, their lot assigned and always preferred, and that parents are rarely seen _except in hindsight _as "going without" for the sake of the child/children.

The child's _normal..._gets an education though...well, that is, unless he is chosen to remain among the stupid. Maybe even as lesson.

Yes, there are "bad" parents who resent the drags upon them made by the fruits of their own pleasure seeking. And, they build this resentment into their own.

But, there are some who accept it as right (and yes! some even preferred) consequence and make no bones or bellyaching about it.

You know...not once did I ever hear my father (in all his reaction against lack of appreciation) ever mention himself at all, or even vaguely hint at his primacy in the matter.

He never once brought up what I have later come to see as his own willing sacrifices on our behalf as in "I work hard for this money to buy this food!" No, never.

But any touching of my mother's efforts with either despite or lack of due appreciation he was quite fierce about.

I think he appreciated my mother more than he thought of himself. That "part" of his life, given and eaten by me has taken some time to grow to appreciation...so I cannot despise the slow witted or stupid.

Some eat without any thought. Some wait.


----------

