# Weird question.



## 1gr8bldr (Sep 30, 2018)

While pondering over one of the other threads, LOL, staying out of it, but watching.... I wonder.... How do I pose this thought as a question? I suppose I am trying to see if others would agree... or disagree. I realize that my opinion is based on my circle. And it in no way is a true picture of real world truths. LOL, I'm biased to think I know, but smart enough to realize I don't know. So I ask, and gather info. Would you say that you think that people are by nature, inclined to believe in something, a higher power? Example, by nature, we are inclined to  deem many things the same. Like what is attractive in a woman. By nature, for the most part, men like women. Etc. It seems to me, that "by nature", we as humans are inclined to believe there may be a higher power.  The idea that so many gods and religions exist today seems to support my thought. That although no one is sure, that we are sort of inclined to believe. But I will acknowledge that, for some, the absence of proof, weights heavy, and they, may rule it out. But is it almost a default of truth, until it's been ruled out???? Or is it a default of false until proven? I suppose that gets to the heart of it. For those many atheist here whom were raised in church, it was likely assumed as truth due to an upbringing. However, I am thinking on a larger scale. As if you were raised on an island free of traditional biases. For example, The indians were religious. I suppose idian kids were subject to their own traditional pressures, however, my point is that most of history is dominated with a form of religion. Thus, I think it comes from our nature, that unconsciously tells us what we are to think. Such as curves are better than squares on a woman. This is what "I" think. Wondering if others agree or disagree. This topic speaking of religion in general, no specific one. Possibly the underlying thought of mine is the defense of an unproven belief, that we so often see here. The argument of a one sided relationship, or I just know, without any proof, etc. Info, for context only, not that it should matter due to the question posed. Those that may not know me.,.. I do believe in a God. This is not an effort to debate anything, only to ponder over how others might see it


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## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> While pondering over one of the other threads, LOL, staying out of it, but watching.... I wonder.... How do I pose this thought as a question? I suppose I am trying to see if others would agree... or disagree. I realize that my opinion is based on my circle. And it in no way is a true picture of real world truths. LOL, I'm biased to think I know, but smart enough to realize I don't know. So I ask, and gather info. Would you say that you think that people are by nature, inclined to believe in something, a higher power? Example, by nature, we are inclined to  deem many things the same. Like what is attractive in a woman. By nature, for the most part, men like women. Etc. It seems to me, that "by nature", we as humans are inclined to believe there may be a higher power.  The idea that so many gods and religions exist today seems to support my thought. That although no one is sure, that we are sort of inclined to believe. But I will acknowledge that, for some, the absence of proof, weights heavy, and they, may rule it out. But is it almost a default of truth, until it's been ruled out???? Or is it a default of false until proven? I suppose that gets to the heart of it. For those many atheist here whom were raised in church, it was likely assumed as truth due to an upbringing. However, I am thinking on a larger scale. As if you were raised on an island free of traditional biases. For example, The indians were religious. I suppose idian kids were subject to their own traditional pressures, however, my point is that most of history is dominated with a form of religion. Thus, I think it comes from our nature, that unconsciously tells us what we are to think. Such as curves are better than squares on a woman. This is what "I" think. Wondering if others agree or disagree. This topic speaking of religion in general, no specific one. Possibly the underlying thought of mine is the defense of an unproven belief, that we so often see here. The argument of a one sided relationship, or I just know, without any proof, etc. Info, for context only, not that it should matter due to the question posed. Those that may not know me.,.. I do believe in a God. This is not an effort to debate anything, only to ponder over how others might see it




I've personally written about this in many previous threads.  I believe this explanation is probable:

https://www.livescience.com/52364-origins-supernatural-relgious-beliefs.html

_ *The 'god faculty'*

    There are many theories as to how religious thought originated. But two of the most widely cited ideas have to do with how early humans interacted with their natural environment, said Kelly James Clark, a senior research fellow at the Kaufman Interfaith Institute at Grand Valley State University in Michigan.

    Picture this: You're a human being living many thousands of years ago. You're out on the plains of the Serengeti, sitting around, waiting for an antelope to walk by so you can kill it for dinner. All of a sudden, you see the grasses in front of you rustling. What do you do? Do you stop and think about what might be causing the rustling (the wind or a lion, for example), or do you immediately take some kind of action?

    "On the plains of the Serengeti, it would be better to not sit around and reflect. People who took their time got selected out," Clark told Live Science. Humans who survived to procreate were those who had developed what evolutionary scientists call a hypersensitive agency-detecting device, or HADD, he said.

    In short, HADD is the mechanism that lets humans perceive that many things have "agency," or the ability to act of their own accord. This understanding of how the world worked facilitated the rapid decision-making process that humans had to go through when they heard a rustling in the grass. (Lions act of their own accord. Better run.)

    But in addition to helping humans make rational decisions, HADD may have planted the seeds for religious thought. In addition to attributing agency to lions, for example, humans started attributing agency to things that really didn't have agency at all. [5 Ways Our Caveman Instincts Get the Best of Us]

    "You might think that raindrops aren't agents," Clark said. "They can't act of their own accord. They just fall. And clouds just form; they're not things that can act. But what human beings have done is to think that clouds are agents. They think [clouds] can act," Clark said of early humans.

    And then humans took things to a whole new level. They started attributing meaning to the actions of things that weren't really acting of their own accord. For example, they thought raindrops were "acting for a purpose," Clark said.

    Acting for a purpose is the basis for what evolutionary scientists call the Theory of Mind (ToM) — another idea that's often cited in discussions about the origins of religion. By attributing intention or purpose to the actions of beings that did have agency, like other people, humans stopped simply reacting as quickly as possible to the world around them — they started anticipating what other beings' actions might be and planning their own actions accordingly. (Being able to sort of get into the mind of another purposeful being is what Theory of Mind is all about.)

    ToM was very helpful to early humans. It enabled them to discern other people's positive and negative intentions (e.g., "Does that person want to mate with me or kill me and steal my food?"), thereby increasing their own chances of survival.

    But when people started attributing purpose to the actions of nonactors, like raindrops, ToM took a turn toward the supernatural. [Infographic: Americans' Beliefs in Paranormal Phenomena]

    "The roaring threat of a thunderstorm or the devastation of a flood is widely seen across cultures as the product of a dangerous personal agent in the sky or river, respectively," said Allen Kerkeslager, an associate professor in the Department of Theology and Religious Studies at Saint Joseph's University in Philadelphia."Likewise, the movements of the sun, moon and stars are widely explained as the movements of personal agents with extraordinary powers,"Kerkeslager told Live Science in an email.

    This tendency to explain the natural world through the existence of beings with supernatural powers — things like gods, ancestral spirits, goblins and fairies — formed the basis for religious beliefs, according to many cognitive scientists. Collectively, some scientists refer to HADD and ToM as the "god faculty," Clark said.

    In fact, human beings haven't evolved past this way of thinking and making decisions, he added.

    "Now, we understand better that the things we thought were agents aren't agents," Clark said. "You can be educated out of some of these beliefs, but you can't be educated out of these cognitive faculties. We all have a hyperactive agency-detecting device. We all have a theory of mind."_


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## bullethead (Sep 30, 2018)

In my opinion yes, humans are inclined to look for a higher power just as are most creatures. Humans just take it further.
From the time we are born every second of our life is governed by a higher power.  Parents. We, like all mammals and animals and creatures depend on the guidance by our parents, who were guided by their parents and on and on and on. When gone, we still reflect on the upbringing our elders have provided. Long story short, I full well believe because of some research that I continue to do, that early man had elevated the ones before him into god like status and the invention of Super Man/Gods have resulted. 

We are not alone in the animal kingdom regarding the young being dependent upon the parents/elders as their guide.

It is shown that even Chimpanzees , Elephants and others seem to have a sense of honoring their dead. With Chimps even having ceremonies and religious type activities.

But as humans our entire lives are structured around a hirearchy. Parents, bosses, pack leaders, teachers, preachers, elders, authority figures in law enforcement, judges, politicians and on and on and on.
We are so structured, even in our earliest forms that continued and evolved for millions of years that It seems to be in our make up to be followers, governed,  led and we revere those that have made positive impacts along the way.
Death, and the fear of it, has us needing a greater leader in a better place to allow us to cooe with our mortality.


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## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2018)

I'd guess that some people are more prone to the forces of this evolutionary trait.  Just like any other trait humans have, some people will have a stronger tendency to this trait than others.  Skepticism is probably another trait that people have in varying degrees.  I'd imagine people with strong proclivity to skepticism will be less likely to be religious or superstitious.


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## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2018)

Stubborness is also a trait and as such will vary from person to person. 

https://www.psychmechanics.com/2014/09/personality-traits-stubbornness.html

_Stubbornness is a personality trait in which a person refuses to change his opinion about a situation or refuses to change his mind about the action that he has decided to take.
A stubborn person has a resolute adherence to his own ideas and opinions. A stubborn person also sometimes has a strong resistance to change, especially if the change is inflicted on him by someone else. A stubborn person has the attitude of “No I won’t, and you can’t make me”. _

 A very stubborn person with a tendency towards superstition will probably be an evangelical.


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## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2018)

A stubborn person prone to skepticism will probably be an anti-theist.  A Stubbornly Skeptical person would make a great scientist.


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## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2018)

Traits also determine a person's political alignment:

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/books/review/the-righteous-mind-by-jonathan-haidt.html

Look at how religious evangelicalism correlates to political extremism.  It's pretty obvious in the Political Forum.


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## Israel (Sep 30, 2018)

"Ontogeny" it has been said, "recapitulates phylogeny" 

What is the estate of _first man_...waking up? _Is he_ fully developed? Or...in process?

Or is he simply awakened _to process_? Still needing to shake off sleeping? The sleep that only shows shapes and forms? 

"I see men as trees walking"

It becomes obvious, man _believes he can know_ what man is.

But the _only place_ any man is given to reside (and make such judgment) is inside the man he can never _figure out. _He can _never see _what supports the (his own) _basement. _

There are two men. One is content in his placement. One is quite not. And _that one_, _has to_ do something about it.

And so, the world as we know it.


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## bullethead (Sep 30, 2018)

Israel said:


> "Ontogeny" it has been said, "recapitulates phylogeny"
> 
> What is the estate of _first man_...waking up? _Is he_ fully developed? Or...in process?
> 
> ...


That is over-known world as you know it. No matter what the subject is, no matter how interesting the reply may start, the ending is always the same.

Ask HimHeOne something that only I and  a god who supposedly knows me would know. Post the answer here.
It is time to start impressing us with real evidence.


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## Israel (Sep 30, 2018)

And so the world as we know it...goes its assigned way.


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## bullethead (Sep 30, 2018)

Israel said:


> And so the world as we know it...goes its assigned way.


I didn't know you were in the predetermined crowd.


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## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2018)

The supernatural visions in the Bible could have been caused by hallucinogenic plants:

http://eden-saga.com/en/bible-torah...ahuasca-marijuana-antique-moses-at-sinai.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Acacia_species_known_to_contain_psychoactive_alkaloids


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 30, 2018)

I wonder why some of the ancient Gods were animals in some cultures and human forms in others? Then some were combinations of human and animal.
Then in other cultures gods are spirits. I guess even the ones with shapes live in a spiritual world.
Then as mentioned some cultures worship their ancestors. It is said that in China they live off rice and worship their ancesters but in Charleston, SC, it's just the opposite.

Did religions evolve as humans do? Maybe a basic belief in a supernatural god evolved as humans evolved. Maybe a very basic god in early culture evolved to a more complex culture.
This god taking on more duties as humans evolved. A god who once just created to a god who controls our every movement.


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## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I wonder why some of the ancient Gods were animals in some cultures and human forms in others? Then some were combinations of human and animal.
> Then in other cultures gods are spirits. I guess even the ones with shapes live in a spiritual world.
> Then as mentioned some cultures worship their ancestors. It is said that in China they live off rice and worship their ancesters but in Charleston, SC, it's just the opposite.
> 
> ...



Read this.  It's very short:

https://www.livescience.com/52364-origins-supernatural-relgious-beliefs.html

You can find more like it quite easily.  Your phone has access to this kind of information.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 30, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Read this.  It's very short:
> 
> https://www.livescience.com/52364-origins-supernatural-relgious-beliefs.html
> 
> You can find more like it quite easily.  Your phne has access to this kind of information.



So maybe for an evolutionary reason, religion helps one overcome fear.

Something else the link may be saying is as man evolved, he eventually had more time to ponder. Maybe as he pondered he also developed ways to help him seek such as drugs or fasting.


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## ambush80 (Oct 1, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> So maybe for an evolutionary reason, religion helps one overcome fear.
> 
> Something else the link may be saying is as man evolved, he eventually had more time to ponder. Maybe as he pondered he also developed ways to help him seek such as drugs or fasting.



It seems more like part of the fear response, the shaking in the bushes or the coil of rope in a dark room.  It's good to be initially afraid of those things.  That reflex kept us alive.  

People get creative when they have time on their hands.


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## Israel (Oct 2, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> It seems more like part of the fear response, the shaking in the bushes or the coil of rope in a dark room.  It's good to be initially afraid of those things.  That reflex kept us alive.
> 
> People get creative when they have time on their hands.





Artfuldodger said:


> I wonder why some of the ancient Gods were animals in some cultures and human forms in others? Then some were combinations of human and animal.
> Then in other cultures gods are spirits. I guess even the ones with shapes live in a spiritual world.
> Then as mentioned some cultures worship their ancestors. It is said that in China they live off rice and worship their ancesters but in Charleston, SC, it's just the opposite.
> 
> ...



Groucho Marx said "I would not belong to any club that would have me as a member".

I often get the distinct impression the view of God as "Club President" is more prevalent than laughter at that description might indicate. It sounds funny when _it _is reduced to that_, _but not so much to the man who himself been reduced to that seeing.

As funny as it sounds...is it really?

It's easy to see tribalism..."club-ism" in others...as a fundamental and strong motive. The seeming safety of numbers...the comforts of acceptance as opposed to the notion of being left on the side of the road...rejected...and alone.  Vulnerable now, to all, and any _of club._

The wonderful _feeling of pride _that comes when one's club triumphs in whatever competition (inherent to their forming) occurs. Or is imagined as coming. The perks of club membership. Identity reinforced in "membership".

But rarely appreciating that anything "set up" is open invitation to challenge...to having within the seed of its own fall. An open challenge to all other clubs.

And, in clubs there are sub clubs, and sub sub clubs...and cliques.

It's played out daily.

But something else waits to the seeing.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> While pondering over one of the other threads, LOL, staying out of it, but watching.... I wonder.... How do I pose this thought as a question? I suppose I am trying to see if others would agree... or disagree. I realize that my opinion is based on my circle. And it in no way is a true picture of real world truths. LOL, I'm biased to think I know, but smart enough to realize I don't know. So I ask, and gather info. Would you say that you think that people are by nature, inclined to believe in something, a higher power? Example, by nature, we are inclined to  deem many things the same. Like what is attractive in a woman. By nature, for the most part, men like women. Etc. It seems to me, that "by nature", we as humans are inclined to believe there may be a higher power.  The idea that so many gods and religions exist today seems to support my thought. That although no one is sure, that we are sort of inclined to believe. But I will acknowledge that, for some, the absence of proof, weights heavy, and they, may rule it out. But is it almost a default of truth, until it's been ruled out???? Or is it a default of false until proven? I suppose that gets to the heart of it. For those many atheist here whom were raised in church, it was likely assumed as truth due to an upbringing. However, I am thinking on a larger scale. As if you were raised on an island free of traditional biases. For example, The indians were religious. I suppose idian kids were subject to their own traditional pressures, however, my point is that most of history is dominated with a form of religion. Thus, I think it comes from our nature, that unconsciously tells us what we are to think. Such as curves are better than squares on a woman. This is what "I" think. Wondering if others agree or disagree. This topic speaking of religion in general, no specific one. Possibly the underlying thought of mine is the defense of an unproven belief, that we so often see here. The argument of a one sided relationship, or I just know, without any proof, etc. Info, for context only, not that it should matter due to the question posed. Those that may not know me.,.. I do believe in a God. This is not an effort to debate anything, only to ponder over how others might see it



C.S. Lewis addresses this in his book, Mere Christianity.

In essence he gives an analogy of it being an appetite that all humanity has:  the appetite to worship.  About it he says something along the lines of:  imagine having an appetite for thirst/water, yet there was no water, or an appetite for food yet there was not food.  How odd would that be?  Yet there is water and food, so it stands to reason that given, man has an appetite to worship, there is an source to sate that appetite.  

Not as clear or as eloquent as how he put it, but that's the gist of it.


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> While pondering over one of the other threads, LOL, staying out of it, but watching.... I wonder.... How do I pose this thought as a question? I suppose I am trying to see if others would agree... or disagree. I realize that my opinion is based on my circle. And it in no way is a true picture of real world truths. LOL, I'm biased to think I know, but smart enough to realize I don't know. So I ask, and gather info. Would you say that you think that people are by nature, inclined to believe in something, a higher power? Example, by nature, we are inclined to  deem many things the same. Like what is attractive in a woman. By nature, for the most part, men like women. Etc. It seems to me, that "by nature", we as humans are inclined to believe there may be a higher power.  The idea that so many gods and religions exist today seems to support my thought. That although no one is sure, that we are sort of inclined to believe. But I will acknowledge that, for some, the absence of proof, weights heavy, and they, may rule it out. But is it almost a default of truth, until it's been ruled out???? Or is it a default of false until proven? I suppose that gets to the heart of it. For those many atheist here whom were raised in church, it was likely assumed as truth due to an upbringing. However, I am thinking on a larger scale. As if you were raised on an island free of traditional biases. For example, The indians were religious. I suppose idian kids were subject to their own traditional pressures, however, my point is that most of history is dominated with a form of religion. Thus, I think it comes from our nature, that unconsciously tells us what we are to think. Such as curves are better than squares on a woman. This is what "I" think. Wondering if others agree or disagree. This topic speaking of religion in general, no specific one. Possibly the underlying thought of mine is the defense of an unproven belief, that we so often see here. The argument of a one sided relationship, or I just know, without any proof, etc. Info, for context only, not that it should matter due to the question posed. Those that may not know me.,.. I do believe in a God. This is not an effort to debate anything, only to ponder over how others might see it


What are your thoughts 1gr8??


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> What are your thoughts 1gr8??


Lots of good opinions to ponder over. I think the info.... missing, is someone who has never believed. I would like to factor that as well


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 3, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Lots of good opinions to ponder over. I think the info.... missing, is someone who has never believed. I would like to factor that as well



Do we have anyone on here who has never believed? Maybe, not sure.
Aren't there some societies or island cultures that don't have a belief in a higher being?


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## 660griz (Oct 9, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Aren't there some societies or island cultures that don't have a belief in a higher being?


Yes there is. I think I posted an article about them awhile back. Or, somebody did. 
Isolated tribe, no God.


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## Brother David (Oct 9, 2018)

If you get time , Google Kirk Cameron street Evangelism , you will find some interesting answers!



1gr8bldr said:


> While pondering over one of the other threads, LOL, staying out of it, but watching.... I wonder.... How do I pose this thought as a question? I suppose I am trying to see if others would agree... or disagree. I realize that my opinion is based on my circle. And it in no way is a true picture of real world truths. LOL, I'm biased to think I know, but smart enough to realize I don't know. So I ask, and gather info. Would you say that you think that people are by nature, inclined to believe in something, a higher power? Example, by nature, we are inclined to  deem many things the same. Like what is attractive in a woman. By nature, for the most part, men like women. Etc. It seems to me, that "by nature", we as humans are inclined to believe there may be a higher power.  The idea that so many gods and religions exist today seems to support my thought. That although no one is sure, that we are sort of inclined to believe. But I will acknowledge that, for some, the absence of proof, weights heavy, and they, may rule it out. But is it almost a default of truth, until it's been ruled out???? Or is it a default of false until proven? I suppose that gets to the heart of it. For those many atheist here whom were raised in church, it was likely assumed as truth due to an upbringing. However, I am thinking on a larger scale. As if you were raised on an island free of traditional biases. For example, The indians were religious. I suppose idian kids were subject to their own traditional pressures, however, my point is that most of history is dominated with a form of religion. Thus, I think it comes from our nature, that unconsciously tells us what we are to think. Such as curves are better than squares on a woman. This is what "I" think. Wondering if others agree or disagree. This topic speaking of religion in general, no specific one. Possibly the underlying thought of mine is the defense of an unproven belief, that we so often see here. The argument of a one sided relationship, or I just know, without any proof, etc. Info, for context only, not that it should matter due to the question posed. Those that may not know me.,.. I do believe in a God. This is not an effort to debate anything, only to ponder over how others might see it


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## ambush80 (Oct 9, 2018)

660griz said:


> Yes there is. I think I posted an article about them awhile back. Or, somebody did.
> Isolated tribe, no God.




The Piraha people.

https://ffrf.org/legal/item/13492-the-pirahae-people-who-define-happiness-without-god


https://www.google.com/search?clien.....0.0..0.0.0.......0......gws-wiz.Kcp52WYbCdY


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