# What, who is the authority in christianity?



## gordon 2 (Oct 12, 2013)

So what is the premier, the heirachy, of authority in Christianity?


Is it scripture?

Is it the Holy Spirit?

Is it the church?

Is it Christ?

How do these fit in together....




Ephesians 1:22-23

King James Version (KJV)


22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The bible seems to declare that it is not scripture that is the authority, or itself, but rather  Jesus as the church which is the body of Christ and him as the head. Am I reading this correctly?


Now regards the Holy Spirit it is a teacher and a comforter and it teaches Christ Jesus to us. ( My opinion so far.) But I think I could get scripture on this.

So what are the bases for the opinions that Scripture and/or the Holy Spirit,  in us (as the redeemed), or Christ, or  Christ as the church is the premier authority to christians or in christianity?

And lastly does all this matter?


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## Israel (Oct 13, 2013)

God alone knows what each is submitted to.
God sees.
It is enough.

I think it's a worthy consideration in response to your last line. 
But as to the actual outworking of it in our communions, these things wait for a coming to light.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 13, 2013)

Israel said:


> God alone knows what each is submitted to.
> God sees.
> It is enough.
> 
> ...



Perhaps but could you speak on at least a point. For example if you know the Holy Spirit as the authority can you speak to it? Or scripture as the authority, can you speak on it. Or the church as authority can you speak on it? Or perhaps it is the self, yourself the authority? Or perhaps it is Jesus in some way; can you speak on this? 

In the meantime as we wait, for you:


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## gemcgrew (Oct 13, 2013)

Other than what you mean by "the church", I do not see a distinction between them. The authority of Scripture and the authority of God are the same. Scripture is God breathed (2 Timothy 3:16,17). Knowing that, I say that Scripture is the ultimate authority of the Christian.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 13, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Other than what you mean by "the church", I do not see a distinction between them. The authority of Scripture and the authority of God are the same. Scripture is God breathed (2 Timothy 3:16,17). Knowing that, I say that Scripture is the ultimate authority of the Christian.



Amen.  I agree.
Often, trying to separate them is an indication of a cop-out.  I know a couple who are living that right now.
"I don't live by the Bible, I allow Christ to lead me".
???????? Doesn't make sense.  All become the one.
.


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## Israel (Oct 13, 2013)

Authority is.
We find it where we must. 
Broken...or crushed to powder.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 13, 2013)

Israel said:


> Authority is.
> We find it where we must.
> Broken...or crushed to powder.


I agree, but the exact can be said of "powerlessness".


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## hobbs27 (Oct 13, 2013)

I understand the authority in scripture, but it is Jesus that is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

 Is Scripture and Christ one in the same? Yes and No. People have known Christ that have never read a word in the bible, and some people know every word in the bible, and dont know Christ.

 When we have versions of scripture that changes meanings..how can that be authority of Christianity? I know that cant be discussed, but Im not calling out any certain one's just the fact that scripture changes in many of the newer versions.


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## Israel (Oct 13, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I agree, but the exact can be said of "powerlessness".


I meet my powerlessness daily, sometimes with shameful results uttered, thought, or acted upon. Yet...there remains a stone upon which I may throw myself...without shame.


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## Israel (Oct 13, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I understand the authority in scripture, but it is Jesus that is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
> 
> Is Scripture and Christ one in the same? Yes and No. People have known Christ that have never read a word in the bible, and some people know every word in the bible, and dont know Christ.
> 
> When we have versions of scripture that changes meanings..how can that be authority of Christianity? I know that cant be discussed, but Im not calling out any certain one's just the fact that scripture changes in many of the newer versions.



Who can "show" the invisible God?
Who would try?
We feel the wind, see its effects, but to try to capture it to show it?
The wind blows where it wills...
Through men, through lilies, and sparrows...even through words...and pages.
And the one who has told us to listen is alive.
Forevermore.
All authority is his.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 13, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Other than what you mean by "the church", I do not see a distinction between them. The authority of Scripture and the authority of God are the same. Scripture is God breathed (2 Timothy 3:16,17). Knowing that, I say that Scripture is the ultimate authority of the Christian.



The church I mean is the one Paul meant. As for me I am not making a distinction in denomination by church. I am not zeroing in on one group. I'm happy, at home, with our church, or the church Paul talked about in Ephesians.

I thank you for your point that Scripture and God are equally the authority. ( For purpose of discussion see above my post to Ronnie which I write to you as well.)


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## gordon 2 (Oct 13, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Amen.  I agree.
> Often, trying to separate them is an indication of a cop-out.  I know a couple who are living that right now.
> "I don't live by the Bible, I allow Christ to lead me".
> ???????? Doesn't make sense.  All become the one.
> .



Perhaps there is a revelation I have not recieved yet, I now don't see as you do Ronnie. Saying that they are the same or inseperable is saying their is a fourth person in the Godhead perhaps? I would say that the bible is an instrument to the body of Christ, the church.

A greek orthodox icon can help teach an illiterate person the Good News. It is a physical instrument that with the help of the Holy Spirit and the church an individual can grow in Christ.

In my view now, scripture is such an instrument as well. (Words as pictures to the mind, the soul.) The saint's work in the form of an Icon is it less "God breaded" than  for the one who wrote the letters in the Acts or than Revelations?,-- or Mathew's Gospel?  So far I don't see them differently. And I would not say a Greek orthodox icon is also God or indeed inseperable from God. ( But perhaps I'm wrong. It happens.)

So the authority cannot be from an intrument of and useful to the faith; the authority must reside elsewhere. Who made the instrument? If we trace it back will the instrument and the maker of it be one? Will the potter be his cup?

Am I being carnal in my thinking here?

The New Testament may well be God breaded, but the folk who wrote it ( the New Testament) were members of our church and got their start from....??? Scripture? I don't see it.  Help.

Now Isreal, if Jesus is the authority can it be apart of our church? Are they seperable? or inseperable as one is not whole without the other?


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## gordon 2 (Oct 13, 2013)

Israel said:


> Who can "show" the invisible God?
> Who would try?
> We feel the wind, see its effects, but to try to capture it to show it?
> The wind blows where it wills...
> ...



If we had lived during the day Jesus walked the roads of the Holy Land, we might have seen God in the flesh---with sufficient faith perhaps.


Now I think I know that Timothy said that God is a Spirit but Paul seems to write in Ephesians that the church is the body of Christ and Christ the head of it. Is the church visible today? Do I take Paul at his word or dismiss him as a greek poet? Or do I maintain that despite Jesus being visible in the flesh in the past that he is invisible now as the church? 

If God was invisible to Moses or that Moses could not "see all of him" God was invisible to the Moses' eyes for the most part. But to the ears was God silent to Moses, in understanding was God unreasonable to the point of being obscure and a mystry to Moses? 

Perhaps I could ask it this way.

Is God present as Scripture?

Is God present as the Holy Spirit?

Is God present as the church?

Is God present as Jesus?

I have answers for all of these that I'm pretty well certain on, but for one and that is "Is God present to us as the church?" How should I understand this? Paul seems to say that Jesus for us is the Chruch, not that he is IN the church, but that Jesus is the church... How does Paul come by this? Ideas?


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## Israel (Oct 13, 2013)

I am persuaded God is present.
At all times, appearing as he wills through whom and what he wills, burning bush to Caiaphas. Thunder (well, some say it thundered), and still small voices.
I believe this is only made known to me through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ who, as a man, refused to be dissuaded of walking in heavenly places, and for me at least...in every way it could be explained, has brought heaven to earth. The reality of that fire kindled by, and in his steadfastness, is working in those who believe...for salvation. For me the scriptures testify now, not of shoulds, or shouldn'ts, not of histories nor forbears, but of the ever presence of a merciful God, even, and especially amongst a rebellious creation.
The bread and wine have become far more simple to me than a ritual, than a practice, than an instruction of something to do...but if anything of instruction, it is found in what a gracious Lord has been doing from the foundation of the world.
If your enemy is hungry, feed him... 

He simply helps us to see what he has always been doing...and to discover the great gladness he has in himself.


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## BT Charlie (Oct 13, 2013)

From the right side of God, now and forever...amen.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 13, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Perhaps there is a revelation I have not recieved yet, I now don't see as you do Ronnie. Saying that they are the same or inseperable is saying their is a fourth person in the Godhead perhaps?


Not at all. I see it as the very words of God, his voice. It is God's verbal revelation, his speaking to us.


gordon 2 said:


> I would say that the bible is an instrument to the body of Christ, the church.


I do not see any other means by which God teaches the church, or rules the church, but through the Bible.


gordon 2 said:


> A greek orthodox icon can help teach an illiterate person the Good News. It is a physical instrument that with the help of the Holy Spirit and the church an individual can grow in Christ.


I do not see it. An image is worthless, without words.


gordon 2 said:


> In my view now, scripture is such an instrument as well. (Words as pictures to the mind, the soul.) The saint's work in the form of an Icon is it less "God breaded" than  for the one who wrote the letters in the Acts or than Revelations?,-- or Mathew's Gospel?  So far I don't see them differently. And I would not say a Greek orthodox icon is also God or indeed inseperable from God. ( But perhaps I'm wrong. It happens.)


Can you provide an example from scripture where drawings, images or pictures are used in lieu of words? Words are much more accurate and precise than an image that is absent of words.
"But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." (2 Timothy 3:14,15)



gordon 2 said:


> So the authority cannot be from an intrument of and useful to the faith; the authority must reside elsewhere. Who made the instrument? If we trace it back will the instrument and the maker of it be one? Will the potter be his cup?


"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." (Galatians 3:8)

The scripture forsaw. I see authority in that.


gordon 2 said:


> Am I being carnal in my thinking here?


I am not taking it that way.


gordon 2 said:


> The New Testament may well be God breaded, but the folk who wrote it ( the New Testament) were members of our church and got their start from....??? Scripture? I don't see it.  Help.


I see Peter confirming both Old and New Testament here.
"Being moved by the Holy Ghost" and "not by the will of man".

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2 Peter 1:20,21)
"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:15,16)


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## Old Winchesters (Oct 13, 2013)

Christ


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 13, 2013)

Wouldn't we have to say the Kingdom of God is at the top? Christ taught about the Kingdom of God.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 13, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Amen.  I agree.
> Often, trying to separate them is an indication of a cop-out.  I know a couple who are living that right now.
> "I don't live by the Bible, I allow Christ to lead me".
> ???????? Doesn't make sense.  All become the one.
> .



Here's what I meant.

Today, anyone outside of Christ is going to find Christ through His written word.  Now, he could 'hear' that written word through a CD, pulpit, Bible class.  But it's gonna take the written word of God(Gospel), in some form, for that person outside of Christ to hear the real truths of the Good News.
They aren't going to learn the things they need by sitting on a tree branch with a compound bow at the ready.
Now that's scriptural.

A person who is in Christ today continues to need the inspired word of the Gospel.  Within it's words they'll find the answers to all of life's questions.
No person should ever put more emphasis on the things they 'visualize' or 'think' up in their spare time.  Those conjuring up's cannot be trusted.  Today, God has given us His word in and through His apostles.  One should never believe those words have limits. 
One should never believe God has given them inspiration beyond His word as already given.

I'm not excusing the Holy Spirit from our lives.  But I am saying one should never leave the words of Jesus and His apostles in favor of something else.
Anything else is usually very suspect.  Very dangerous.  Very self-serving.  If you have something other than God's previously revealed word, I'm not interested in it.

Christ is the head of the church.

His Gospel(His and His apostles teachings and writings) are His instructions and proclamation to us today.

The Holy Spirit works as God dictates.  Not as we.  I'm a dog, not the cat.
.


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## Israel (Oct 14, 2013)

I cannot help but wonder if the question includes another hidden, but real, simultaneous query.
Or, if it is only me hearing it.
"What can a man", or, "what will a man 'use' to show he is right?"
I suppose, were I to resort to Jesus' words, it would easily be said "This man is taking his stand upon what is recorded, therefore he is using the scripture to _make his case_." For, if it were not recorded, he would not know it at all.

That man could say, were I to protest that I mean "Jesus is the authority" might say "Yes, but you cannot deny you only know that because it is given us to know what you say, only by the scripture you have used!"

Likewise, the same could be said were I to say Jesus has told us to 'listen' to the Holy Spirit as our guide and instructor.

And, were I (or any man, for that matter) to say, that Jesus has told us all authority, and _even the authority he had to speak_ proceeds from the Father, the same, you can easily see, could, and might be said.

Do we see authority as something "up for grabs" so to speak, and if we can make sure we have placed our hope in the right place, we too, may have it amongst one another?

(Now, that above question_ a man_ will have to decide, discern, determine, once it is heard (or in my case, spoken)...whether it is a product of a cynical heart, the ignorant and rebellious flesh, or just a child asking...really..."which one of you (us, me included) really wants to _look_ like the boss?"

And here is where we all get "caught", perhaps...no less than James, and John...whose mother asked _for them_ a very seemingly high seat. An impregnable, and irrefutably glorious spot. She saw (or perhaps, glimpsed) some of the glory coming Jesus' way. "Her" sons should have a good shot at being close to, and in it. So she made her appeal.

She was not rebuked. But the sons were asked a very simple question. "Can you drink..."
And, we know their reply, and Jesus' afterwards, to it.
You will indeed.
"But, as to _seating arrangements_, well, that's simply something now that remains out of my hands."

This cup of being nothing, so that the giver of the cup may be seen, this cup of invisibility to all but God alone, so that you can 
easily be labeled with whatever is in men's hearts to hang on you, this cup of "emptiness", so that others will seek to fill you with whatever they care to use as your (their) "filling" may justify them before others...or their God.

There is no rebuke for wanting to look like the boss. Or be close to the boss, for it is only right a child should be as his Father. And want to be, and remain close as he allows.
But the same question is asked us as was asked James and John...do we know the way?

Jesus spoke in another place of seating arrangements, that now were precisely in his hands to distribute. After his proclamation that all authority in heaven and earth were his. Maybe a very short while, that took us a little time to hear. Maybe because it was just too glorious to consider.

"To him who overcomes..."

Maybe part of that overcoming is getting to see just how the boss is, among his own. As a brother, a Father, and yes...even as a mother. Wanting a good spot for her kids.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 14, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Not at all. I see it as the very words of God, his voice. It is God's verbal revelation, his speaking to us.



I believe it is a mistake to exalt the Bible to such a sacred level that the validity of scripture is conjoined with the validity of Christianity.  They are two different things.  Man had a hand in creating the Bible and made a few mistakes.

The father of Salah was Arphaxad as reported in Genesis 11:12 but the father of Salah was Cainan as reported in Luke 3:35-36.

One of the penalties for David’s sin was 7 years of famine as reported in 2nd Samuel 24:13	but instead of 7 years, the penalty was 3 years of famine as reported in 1st Chronicles 21:11-12.

David took 700 horsemen with him as reported in 2nd Samuel 8:4	but he took 7000 horsemen with him as reported in 1st Chronicles 18:4.

There were 13 generations from Abraham to David as reported in Matthew 1:2-6 but there were 14 generations from Abraham to David as reported in Matthew 1:17.

There were 13 generations from Babylonian captivity to Jesus Christ as reported in Matthew 1:12-16 but there were 14 generations from Babylonian captivity to Jesus Christ as reported in Matthew 1:17.

The family burial plot was purchased by Abraham as reported in Genesis 23 but it was purchased by Jacob as reported in Joshua 24:32 but it was purchased by Abraham as reported in Acts 7:16.

Abraham deceived King Abimelech over his wife Sarah as reported in Genesis 20 but it was Isaac who deceived King Abimelech over his wife Rebekah as reported in Genesis 26.  

These are just a few examples and there are many more. This type of error does nothing to invalidate Christianity or the message of the Holy Bible.  However, it does seem relevant to the claim that the Bible is inerrant and directly from the mouth of God.


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## Bama4me (Oct 14, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Other than what you mean by "the church", I do not see a distinction between them. The authority of Scripture and the authority of God are the same. Scripture is God breathed (2 Timothy 3:16,17). Knowing that, I say that Scripture is the ultimate authority of the Christian.



X2.

Try reading this progression...

*  Hebrews 1:1-2... God has spoken to us via Christ
*  Matthew 28:18-20... Christ has all authority
*  John 15:26... Christ would send the Holy Spirit
*  John 16:13... the Spirit would guide people in all truth
*  John 17:17... God's word is truth
*  1 Thessalonians 2:13... people received God's word
*  2 Timothy 3:16-17... Scripture comes from God


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## clayservant (Oct 14, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Other than what you mean by "the church", I do not see a distinction between them. The authority of Scripture and the authority of God are the same. Scripture is God breathed (2 Timothy 3:16,17). Knowing that, I say that Scripture is the ultimate authority of the Christian.



I agree 100%


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## Bama4me (Oct 14, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I believe it is a mistake to exalt the Bible to such a sacred level that the validity of scripture is conjoined with the validity of Christianity.  They are two different things.  Man had a hand in creating the Bible and made a few mistakes.
> 
> The father of Salah was Arphaxad as reported in Genesis 11:12 but the father of Salah was Cainan as reported in Luke 3:35-36.
> 
> ...



Those who often claim the bible is full of conflicting stories are often unwilling to accept certain things.  Some alleged discrepancies are because of scribal errors (they are fairly obvious), others are due to differences in culture, and still others result from not realizing how the bible is written.

The fact that many people are unwilling to acknowledge the alleged contradictions can be solved doesn't diminish what the bible is - it is the revealed word of God to man.  But... like everything else regarding our belief system, it takes FAITH to accept it as such.


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## formula1 (Oct 14, 2013)

*Re:*

Knowing Christ is your authority as a Christian and it includes:

1) Christ as Head of the Body
2) His Church
3) His revealed written Word
4) His revelation through the Holy Spirit to your spirit
5) Relationship in prayer to Him
6) Right relationship to others
7) His purpose is the one that matters

All of them are equally important and compliment each other and none can be excluded from any of the others.

For example, if you think you have some great revelation but it doesn't fit scripture, you don't have a revelation at all.

Or to give another, if your revelation and scripture fit, but your relationship to others is poor, it would be wise not to act until your Love is correct. You just might make a fool of yourself.

Everything you are as a Christian should be brought through the filter of His purpose.  Anything that is not His purpose for you is not Him and has no authority!

Live by faith and trust Him with your life and your authority will be established and further, you won't have to defend or prove you have authority. It will be clear!


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## Israel (Oct 14, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Knowing Christ is your authority as a Christian and it includes:
> 
> 1) Christ as Head of the Body
> 2) His Church
> ...


Could it be that a man's authority, if that is a part of the original question, that being "what is YOUR authority" will be demonstrated by his submission to that authority?

Therefore...we get "tricked" if you can receive it...if we pursue the having of authority for its own sake, into learning that the only authority is found in submission to authority...and we then can never confuse "our" authority with THE authority?

Jesus commended the centurion in not only his saying...but his understanding through faith by sight of Jesus relationship to his word. His word had authority, not because that authority was "his own", but that the centurion understood what it meant to be "under" authority. The Centurion saw what many of Israel did not...Jesus relationship in and to his Father..."The" authority.

How different a picture of Jesus that paints, not a man walking around popping miracles according to his whim...but a man directed to say and only do as instructed...and God, by the power demonstrated through Jesus' word, verified, vindicated, endorsed, that Jesus was "working" in obedience to his Father. And so his Father showed...the very power of God available to, and through a man who would submit to not speaking his own words, nor doing his own deeds.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 14, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Those who often claim the bible is full of conflicting stories are often unwilling to accept certain things.  Some alleged discrepancies are because of scribal errors (they are fairly obvious), others are due to differences in culture, and still others result from not realizing how the bible is written.
> 
> The fact that many people are unwilling to acknowledge the alleged contradictions can be solved doesn't diminish what the bible is - it is the revealed word of God to man.  But... like everything else regarding our belief system, it takes FAITH to accept it as such.



I wasn't attempting to discredit the Bible or Christianity.  I was merely pointing out imperfections in the Bible's current form.



HawgJawl said:


> I believe it is a mistake to exalt the Bible to such a sacred level that the validity of scripture is conjoined with the validity of Christianity.
> 
> This type of error does nothing to invalidate Christianity or the message of the Holy Bible.



God is perfect.  Jesus is perfect.  The Holy Spirit is perfect.  The Bible is not perfect.


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## Bama4me (Oct 14, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I wasn't attempting to discredit the Bible or Christianity.  I was merely pointing out imperfections in the Bible's current form.
> 
> 
> 
> God is perfect.  Jesus is perfect.  The Holy Spirit is perfect.  The Bible is not perfect.



I disagree... totally.  If a perfect God is unable to produce a perfect revelation to mankind, He is not perfect.  Everything God inspired man to write is inerrant and harmonious.

If a scribal error occurred somewhere, that error is NOT a part of Scripture... it ceased to become "Scripture" when the error was made.  Regarding the alleged contradictions you cited earlier, there is a possible answer to each one - but looking at things from a "higher criticism" viewpoint, one doesn't want to believe the bible is from God.

I'm not saying you're guilty of this mindset, but most who are in the business of pointing out alleged discrepancies in the bible don't believe in biblical inspiration - and thus want to find places where it can be discredited.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 14, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> If a scribal error occurred somewhere, that error is NOT a part of Scripture... it ceased to become "Scripture" when the error was made.
> 
> Regarding the alleged contradictions you cited earlier, there is a possible answer to each one



If the Bible, in it's current form, was perfect, there would be no reason to discuss scribal errors or the difference between "inspired scripture" and what is actually written in the Bible.

Again, I'm not saying that this discredits the Bible in any way.  I'm just saying it isn't perfect because man had a hand in creating it.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 14, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I believe it is a mistake to exalt the Bible to such a sacred level that the validity of scripture is conjoined with the validity of Christianity.



... but it's not a mistake to exalt the Bible.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 14, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> ... but it's not a mistake to exalt the Bible.



God's word, God's message to mankind should be exalted.  The Bible is a book with words printed on paper by men.  Some people can see no difference between the two.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 14, 2013)

Where is  1gr8bldr  when I need him?


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## centerpin fan (Oct 14, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Where is  1gr8bldr  when I need him?



God told him to stay out of this thread.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 14, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> God's word, God's message to mankind should be exalted.  The Bible is a book with words printed on paper by men.  Some people can see no difference between the two.



Feel free to include me in "some people".


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## Ronnie T (Oct 14, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If the Bible, in it's current form, was perfect, there would be no reason to discuss scribal errors or the difference between "inspired scripture" and what is actually written in the Bible.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying that this discredits the Bible in any way.  I'm just saying it isn't perfect because man had a hand in creating it.



So, what do you think happens when your average man turns from the Bible in order to allow God to "Lead" him with no concern for what the Bible teaches?
.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 14, 2013)

I dont agree the word is in error, I believe in the whole bible, but not a bible full of holes, and there are some of those.

 Just curious, those that refer to the bible as a God, do you not consider Jesus work complete until the bible was assembled?


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## Bama4me (Oct 14, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I dont agree the word is in error, I believe in the whole bible, but not a bible full of holes, and there are some of those.
> 
> Just curious, those that refer to the bible as a God, do you not consider Jesus work complete until the bible was assembled?



There's a difference between saying "the bible is a god" and "the bible is our guide".  How would you know ANY facts about Jesus if you didn't have the revealed word?


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## Bama4me (Oct 14, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> God's word, God's message to mankind should be exalted.  The Bible is a book with words printed on paper by men.  Some people can see no difference between the two.



Except for any scribal errors/obvious additions, which only compose a fraction of a percent of what is known as "the bible", it IS God's message - and SHOULD be exalted.

In your line of reasoning, you're throwing the baby out with the bath water - the baby being God's word.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 14, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Again, I'm not saying that this discredits the Bible in any way.  I'm just saying it isn't perfect because man had a hand in creating it.


No No:
I'm not buying it.


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## Israel (Oct 14, 2013)

Oral tradition? I don't know.
I am more than glad that God moved upon men to write down the things they saw in the heavenlies, things they saw burst through into this earth, things they heard in their night watches and things they looked forward to in hope...and back at with great amazement. Things that happened to them, and things they saw that happened to others. I am glad for all of it. I have read of their trials, of their losses, and of their triumphs through faith. Yet, in and through it all, it is the testimony of that One that rings...loud and clear, of his not abandoning his own, ever. Believing, as I do, that all of it...every bit...is to bring a man face to face, eye to eye, lips to lips, breath for breath with the Lord of all creation, things both seen and unseen (as yet) is all. I don't know if a man can be so occupied with the scriptures, that he could miss God...but I know there has been a caution issued to some who would seek to find the salvation therein, but neglect to come to the very one who IS salvation.
If I am wrong about everything...and all else, I believe he is the One...that God has sent into the world. And he who still, and always abides faithful. 
Yes, there are scriptures that have told me this.
But only One who has shown me this.


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## barryl (Oct 14, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> No No:
> I'm not buying it.


SIC'em Gem!! I am a Bible Believer{KJV AV} Mr. Jawls, get out the word of God, look up Psalms 138:2,4 God exalts his word pretty high, wouldn't you say?


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## hobbs27 (Oct 14, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> There's a difference between saying "the bible is a god" and "the bible is our guide".  How would you know ANY facts about Jesus if you didn't have the revealed word?



God could write the Gospel in the sky if He wanted. We are not reliant on the bible. God allows us to preach and teach from the bible so we can enjoy spreading the gospel..its a blessing.

 The eunuch had scripture but no way of understanding until he had a teacher. Our teacher today is the Holy Spirit. I will take being led by the spirit over man anyday, and despite what some think, the spirit does not lead a man away from the teachings in the bible. Just as Jesus astonished the well studied pharisee and divided the word from their traditions, so the spirit does!


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## formula1 (Oct 14, 2013)

*Re:*



Israel said:


> Could it be that a man's authority, if that is a part of the original question, that being "what is YOUR authority" will be demonstrated by his submission to that authority?
> 
> Therefore...we get "tricked" if you can receive it...if we pursue the having of authority for its own sake, into learning that the only authority is found in submission to authority...and we then can never confuse "our" authority with THE authority?
> 
> ...



Amen!  With that measure you use, it shall be measured unto you!  By a Holy and awesome God! And there is no other place to obtain it!


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## formula1 (Oct 14, 2013)

*Re:*



hobbs27 said:


> Our teacher today is the Holy Spirit. I will take being led by the spirit over man anyday, and despite what some think, the spirit does not lead a man away from the teachings in the bible!



So very muck appreciate your post. And so it is!  Those who are lead by the Spirit are the sons of God!


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## gordon 2 (Oct 14, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Amen!  With that measure you use, it shall be measured unto you!  By a Holy and awesome God! And there is no other place to obtain it!



"Could it be".... by Isreal is like honey inside a lion. It is food, not pretext. How interesting... how wonderful.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 14, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> God could write the Gospel in the sky if He wanted. We are not reliant on the bible.


Wait....what?
I am reliant on the Bible. Without it, I would have remained ensnared by my foolish musings. Is not our understanding of Scripture, our understanding of the mind and the will of God? Would we say that we believe, trust and obey God, but not what he says? 

How are we to grow in truth and knowledge apart from God's very words? Sure, you may say "through the Spirit", but how would we test the spirits? How would we even know that we need to test them?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 14, 2013)

It appears we are trying to add the Bible to the Trinity. It also has become aware, from our recent threads, that we are divided on the Holy Spirit guiding our Bible interpretations. 
I believe Jesus fulfilled the Word and thus became the Word only in this fulfillment. The written word is not the same as the living Word.  It is our guidebook to the true living Word and isn't a  part of the Trinity.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 14, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Wait....what?
> I am reliant on the Bible. Without it, I would have remained ensnared by my foolish musings. Is not our understanding of Scripture, our understanding of the mind and the will of God? Would we say that we believe, trust and obey God, but not what he says?
> 
> How are we to grow in truth and knowledge apart from God's very words? Sure, you may say "through the Spirit", but how would we test the spirits? How would we even know that we need to test them?



I somewhat agree with Hobbs in the role of the Holy Spirit helping to reveal the living Word.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 14, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Wait....what?
> I am reliant on the Bible. Without it, I would have remained ensnared by my foolish musings. Is not our understanding of Scripture, our understanding of the mind and the will of God? Would we say that we believe, trust and obey God, but not what he says?
> 
> How are we to grow in truth and knowledge apart from God's very words? Sure, you may say "through the Spirit", but how would we test the spirits? How would we even know that we need to test them?



I believe it takes more than the Bible to test spirits. They might be masquerading.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 14, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Wait....what?
> I am reliant on the Bible. Without it, I would have remained ensnared by my foolish musings. Is not our understanding of Scripture, our understanding of the mind and the will of God? Would we say that we believe, trust and obey God, but not what he says?
> 
> How are we to grow in truth and knowledge apart from God's very words? Sure, you may say "through the Spirit", but how would we test the spirits? How would we even know that we need to test them?



 Gem I don't believe it was the bible that released you from the snare of your foolish musings. I believe God did that. Otherwise you are saying your salvation depended on you reading the bible. 

 I believe in a living God , The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. That's all the authority in Christianity. The bible depending on which one you speak of is a great blessing to us from God, but Christianity doesn't depend on it. Matter of fact Christianity was built without it.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 14, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Gem I don't believe it was the bible that released you from the snare of your foolish musings. I believe God did that. Otherwise you are saying your salvation depended on you reading the bible.


Yes, my salvation was by the grace of God the Holy Spirit, but “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.”



hobbs27 said:


> I believe in a living God , The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. That's all the authority in Christianity. The bible depending on which one you speak of is a great blessing to us from God, but Christianity doesn't depend on it. Matter of fact Christianity was built without it.


Christianity was built without the words of God? What of the Apostles? Were their words their own or did God speak through them?

Who has convinced you to think this way?


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## Israel (Oct 15, 2013)

I don't know if Peter saying "I go a'fishing" was inerrantly inspired (though I know who gave him breath to say it), but I have come to see the value of its record.

And, now, I too, hear a time clock calling. A silly little electro-mechanical device on a wall, whose ability has been invested by man to help determine my worthiness as an employee.
Am I punching out, to punch in?


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## hobbs27 (Oct 15, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Yes, my salvation was by the grace of God the Holy Spirit, but “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.”
> 
> 
> Christianity was built without the words of God? What of the Apostles? Were their words their own or did God speak through them?
> ...



 You included the Holy Spirit in your salvation process, now that I understand, thankyou.


 Christianity was built on Jesus crucified, yes the Apostles breathed the word of God, but not every sermon is recorded, not every time someone was preached to and recieved Jesus is recorded. 
 I know a man that has passed on now but in my childhood he was a well known preacher in my area---the man couldnt read a word, never learned to read. He would pray for God to give him something then he would go to his wife and ask her to open the bible to the book of ---- and read to him. The following sunday he would preach on that. It was only through the authority of the Holy Spirit he was able to do this! This is my point and my fear for modern Christians, the Bible is a great blessing, but without the authority of the Holy Spirit it is nothing but black letters on white pages---many atheist know the bible and can quote it word for word---many modern preachers know it and learned it in school, what they dont know, is what you claimed to know--The Holy Spirit.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Gem I don't believe it was the bible that released you from the snare of your foolish musings. I believe God did that. Otherwise you are saying your salvation depended on you reading the bible.
> 
> I believe in a living God , The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. That's all the authority in Christianity. The bible depending on which one you speak of is a great blessing to us from God, but Christianity doesn't depend on it. Matter of fact Christianity was built without it.



And when Gem was elected, his Bible reading wasn't what  caused it.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 15, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I believe it is a mistake to exalt the Bible to such a sacred level that the validity of scripture is conjoined with the validity of Christianity.



The reason I believe it is a mistake is because of this:



Bama4me said:


> I disagree... totally.  If a perfect God is unable to produce a perfect revelation to mankind, He is not perfect.  Everything God inspired man to write is inerrant and harmonious.



With this standard of the two being inseparable, all a person has to do is find ONE (1) mistake or untruth in the Bible to discredit the entire religion of Christianity.

The errors I quoted above are just a few of the many still in the current version, but what about the over 300 times the KJV has been altered/corrected in the past.

God's message to the world can be found in the Bible, but it is not physically "the Bible".

John 1:1 states that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  

In John 1:14 it is stated that the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.  

In 1st John 5:7 it is stated that there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.  

Revelations 19:13 it is stated that he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

The “Word of God” is Jesus Christ and His message for mankind.  It is not the collection of scriptures that we call the Bible.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 15, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The “Word of God” is Jesus Christ and His message for mankind.  It is not the collection of scriptures that we call the Bible.



And where can one find His message?


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## HawgJawl (Oct 15, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> So, what do you think happens when your average man turns from the Bible in order to allow God to "Lead" him with no concern for what the Bible teaches?
> .



Pretty much the same thing that happens when man interprets scripture (without the Holy Spirit's guidance) to reinforce whatever viewpoint they wish.


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## Bama4me (Oct 15, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The errors I quoted above are just a few of the many still in the current version, but what about the over 300 times the KJV has been altered/corrected in the past.
> 
> God's message to the world can be found in the Bible, but it is not physically "the Bible".



You do realize that what you're talking about is only a fraction of one percent of the entire bible?  You do realize that sometimes alterations take place because a word which meant one thing in 1611 no longer means the same thing in 2013?


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## Ronnie T (Oct 15, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> So, what do you think happens when your average man turns from the Bible in order to allow God to "Lead" him with no concern for what the Bible teaches?
> .





HawgJawl said:


> Pretty much the same thing that happens when man interprets scripture (without the Holy Spirit's guidance) to reinforce whatever viewpoint they wish.



But in all cases God's word becomes the proof text.  It is how we "test" the spirit.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 15, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> You do realize that what you're talking about is only a fraction of one percent of the entire bible?  You do realize that sometimes alterations take place because a word which meant one thing in 1611 no longer means the same thing in 2013?



Please read post #55 again with this in mind: 

With the standard being that there are absolutely no errors, it doesn't matter how few errors exist or the reason they exist.  The existence of a single error in the Bible (not God's word, but the book written by man) invalidates Christianity as long as that book is the ultimate authority over the religion.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 15, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> And where can one find His message?



By reading the ENTIRE Bible repeatedly.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 15, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The reason I believe it is a mistake is because of this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think I'm beginning to see and understand your motivation.  No No:


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## Bama4me (Oct 15, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Please read post #55 again with this in mind:
> 
> With the standard being that there are absolutely no errors, it doesn't matter how few errors exist or the reason they exist.  The existence of a single error in the Bible (not God's word, but the book written by man) invalidates Christianity as long as that book is the ultimate authority over the religion.



HJ... in its original form, it contained NO errors.  However, we do not have any copies of the autographs today?  What I'm saying is that the autographs were infallible... the bible does not claim infallibility when it comes to the copying and translation process.  

You mentioned two things earlier... one was scribal error and the other "alleged contradictions".  They do not belong in the same category.  Scribal errors come from the human process of copying/translating.  "Alleged contradictions" in the bible would mean that God contradicts Himself in what He revealed to man.  Scribal errors are not involved in the "inspiration" of the bible... but "alleged contradictions" are very much a part of "inspiration".

However, the bible does not contradict itself.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2013)

The Word of God is Spirit, Not Scriptures 
Click to see Biblical references to Scriptures
 Plus There are Links to the Original Greek for Each Verse 
Text in Light Blue or bold Light Blue can be "clicked" for backup in scripture.
When you have clicked to the on-line Bible, you can change and update to see any Bible version that you prefer.
1.John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 (The Word is God, not the Bible! Jesus Christ is the Word of God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and there was nothing made without him. John 1:2-3)

 Look how ridiculous this wonderful verse becomes, substituting the word Bible for the word Word.
In the beginning was the Word Bible, and the Word Bible was with God, and the Word Bible was God.

 The word is a Spirit, Jesus Christ, whose name is the word of God; it is not a scripture. 

(the above was from this link)
http://www.hallvworthington.com/Scripture_Grouping/wordofgod.html


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## HawgJawl (Oct 15, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> But in all cases God's word becomes the proof text.  It is how we "test" the spirit.



We have examples of people professing to be led by the Holy Spirit in a direction which directly contradicts the direction others profess being led by the Holy Spirit.

We have examples of people interpreting scripture in a way that directly contradicts the way others interpret scripture.

We need the accurate interpretation of scripture in order to test the spirit, but we need the Holy Spirit in order to obtain the accurate interpretation of scripture, but we need the accurate interpretation of scripture in order to test the spirit, but...  (repeat as many times as desired)


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## Bama4me (Oct 15, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> We have examples of people professing to be led by the Holy Spirit in a direction which directly contradicts the direction others profess being led by the Holy Spirit.
> 
> We have examples of people interpreting scripture in a way that directly contradicts the way others interpret scripture.
> 
> We need the accurate interpretation of scripture in order to test the spirit, but we need the Holy Spirit in order to obtain the accurate interpretation of scripture, but we need the accurate interpretation of scripture in order to test the spirit, but...  (repeat as many times as desired)



The Holy Spirit produced the inspired word of God so we'd have a standard - I'm not sure we can prove the Spirit's role  in the first century helped people "interpret God's word"... as much as He revealed God's word.  To claim today, "one must have the Holy Spirit's direct guidance in order to interpret the bible"... I'd like some biblical proof before I'd agree to your premise above.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 15, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> HJ... in its original form, it contained NO errors.  However, we do not have any copies of the autographs today?  What I'm saying is that the autographs were infallible... the bible does not claim infallibility when it comes to the copying and translation process.
> 
> You mentioned two things earlier... one was scribal error and the other "alleged contradictions".  They do not belong in the same category.  Scribal errors come from the human process of copying/translating.  "Alleged contradictions" in the bible would mean that God contradicts Himself in what He revealed to man.  Scribal errors are not involved in the "inspiration" of the bible... but "alleged contradictions" are very much a part of "inspiration".
> 
> However, the bible does not contradict itself.



I think I've been consistent in attributing the errors in the current version of the Bible to man.  I don't think that I have alleged in this thread that God contradicted Himself or that the original inspired word was in error.  I have repeatedly referred to the Bible in it's current form as containing errors made by man.

The reason for this distinction is that the Bible in it's current form (with errors caused by man) is what is being measured against the Holy Spirit as to the ultimate authority in Christianity.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 15, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I think I'm beginning to see and understand your motivation.  No No:



My motivation is to discover a logical way for me to believe again, but if the standard is an error in the Bible equals an error in Christianity then there is no hope for me.


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## Bama4me (Oct 15, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> My motivation is to discover a logical way for me to believe again, but if the standard is an error in the Bible equals an error in Christianity then there is no hope for me.



Then your path really comes down to "does God reveal any truth to us outside the bible that is not found in His word"... or "does the bible contain the TOTAL revelation of God to man."  Romans 10:17 tells us faith (what you call "belief") comes by hearing... and hearing by the word of God.  You have to determine what constitutes "the word of God."

BTW... have you ever studied how we got the written word collected into what is called "the bible"?  If you haven't, I'd encourage you to do so... many people have a lot of preconceived notions about it that are not founded on facts.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 15, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> ... if the standard is an error in the Bible equals an error in Christianity then there is no hope for me.



Yeah, pretty much.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 15, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Then your path really comes down to "does God reveal any truth to us outside the bible that is not found in His word"... or "does the bible contain the TOTAL revelation of God to man."  Romans 10:17 tells us faith (what you call "belief") comes by hearing... and hearing by the word of God.  You have to determine what constitutes "the word of God."
> 
> BTW... have you ever studied how we got the written word collected into what is called "the bible"?  If you haven't, I'd encourage you to do so... many people have a lot of preconceived notions about it that are not founded on facts.



I've done extensive research into the various stages of the assembly of scripture.  I don't want to get side-tracked on it because it definitely would not help the cause.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> My motivation is to discover a logical way for me to believe again, but if the standard is an error in the Bible equals an error in Christianity then there is no hope for me.



It doesn't because the promise of the Father was the Holy Spirit, not a Bible. Many Christians worship the Bible instead of the Word.  The written Word, the Bible has replaced the Holy Spirit in most Christians’ lives.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (John 1:1-5, ESV)


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## centerpin fan (Oct 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> It doesn't because the promise of the Father was the Holy Spirit, not a Bible.



When He made that promise, the church already had the Bible.  They just didn't have a completed NT.


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## Bama4me (Oct 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> It doesn't because the promise of the Father was the Holy Spirit, not a Bible. Many Christians worship the Bible instead of the Word.  The written Word, the Bible has replaced the Holy Spirit in most Christians’ lives.
> 
> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (John 1:1-5, ESV)



Art... you've implied this idea more than a few times now.  Just to be plain, I know of no one who worships the bible.  However, we wouldn't know anything about Jesus Christ if we didn't have the bible.  The promise of Jesus WAS the Holy Spirit, but part of His "guiding them into all truth" was to inspire men to write what we call "Scripture".  When you say "the bible replaces the Holy Spirit", that's very misleading because the Holy Spirit produced Scripture.  

In many ways, the two are inseparable... if a person says "I'm lead by the written word" he is simultaneously saying "I allow the Holy Spirit to lead me".  Same thing when we say "Jesus leads my life"... we're saying we allow His example and teachings to dictate our actions.  Somehow, you seem to be implying that the Holy Spirit is somehow totally separate from the written word... and that's not so.

Personally, I believe God "leads" a person through the word that is written.  Thus, for me, "being led by the Spirit" means I read and apply what the Holy Spirit produced.  Others here believe they are led by the Holy Spirit "separate and apart" from the written word - in a miraculous manner.  Both sides agree we are "led by the Spirit"... the disagreement is "how the Holy Spirit leads us."


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2013)

I'm trying to better understand the Holy Spirit's hand in writing the Old Testament in this study. The Holy Spirit did inspire men to write the Scriptures but inspiration is inspiration.
I believe I have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit so I have a Supernatural teacher living within me.
The Bible does contain some of God's word but the Word of God isn't just the Bible.


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## Bama4me (Oct 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm trying to better understand the Holy Spirit's hand in writing the Old Testament in this study. The Holy Spirit did inspire men to write the Scriptures but inspiration is inspiration.
> I believe I have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit so I have a Supernatural teacher living within me.
> The Bible does contain some of God's word but the Word of God isn't just the Bible.



Then what you're saying is that the Holy Spirit leads you to know things the Scriptures do not reveal.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm trying to better understand the Holy Spirit's hand in writing the Old Testament in this study. The Holy Spirit did inspire men to write the Scriptures but inspiration is inspiration.
> I believe I have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit so I have a Supernatural teacher living within me.
> The Bible does contain some of God's word but the Word of God isn't just the Bible.



Just some?


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## HawgJawl (Oct 15, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> The Holy Spirit produced the inspired word of God so we'd have a standard - I'm not sure we can prove the Spirit's role  in the first century helped people "interpret God's word"... as much as He revealed God's word.  To claim today, "one must have the Holy Spirit's direct guidance in order to interpret the bible"... I'd like some biblical proof before I'd agree to your premise above.



Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:12-14
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

1 Corinthians 2:10
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Hebrews 10:15-16
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, this is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2013)

I don't know if it's possible for God to make something perfect when man is involved. God took dust and breathed into it but that same good man was tempted to eat the forbidden fruit.
The Bible is also God breathed and inspired. It like us were both God breathed. In other words man does have a role in writing the Bible. I think you are kidding yourself if you can't find conflicting stories, conflicting interpretations, etc. caused by Man.
The Bible is important and we can learn from it and use it as a guide. I do feel we will run into lots of problems trying to say it is equal with or is the same thing as the Holy Spirit.
Just look at what HawgJawl is doing. Many others will do the same. They are trying to show faults in the Bible to mean there are faults in the Holy Spirit and that's just not the case. 
That's the reason the Word of God isn't the Bible. Jesus fulfilled the Word of God. That's way more important than written Scripture.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Just some?



When Paul was writing to the Church in Corinth he said in a few verses it was him speaking and not God.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Then what you're saying is that the Holy Spirit leads you to know things the Scriptures do not reveal.



Yes, me and people in tiny rainforest villages.

And the word logos appears throughout the Bible; often translated as the word but always referring to the spoken words of the Holy Spirit or the spoken words of the Spirit of Jesus. You can click to see the Greek for each verse on this page to verify what Greek word was written, and you can also click on the Greek word itself to see the word's definition.

Every reference to "the word" or "the word of God" or "the Word of the Lord" in the New Testament is either logos or rhema, both of which mean "words spoken by a living voice." 

http://www.hallvworthington.com/Scripture_Grouping/wordofgod.html

The Word of God can be written as in the Bible but God can speak directly to me through the Holy Spirit. I can hear the Word of God through another person too. That would be the Holy Spirit working through that person to communicate with me indirectly.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Just look at what HawgJawl is doing. Many others will do the same. They are trying to show faults in the Bible to mean there are faults in the Holy Spirit and that's just not the case.



In case anyone has misread what I have been posting, I'm not saying that because the Bible has errors, that proves that Christianity is invalid.  What I'm saying is that if you incorrectly choose to conjoin the validity and integrity of Christianity with the validity and integrity of the current book we call the Bible, you are opening that door.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> When Paul was writing to the Church in Corinth he said in a few verses it was him speaking and not God.



I disagree, but ...

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say, "The Bible contains all of God's word except for 'a few verses it was him speaking and not God'?"


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## centerpin fan (Oct 15, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> In case anyone has misread what I have been posting, I'm not saying that because the Bible has errors, that proves that Christianity is invalid.  What I'm saying is that if you incorrectly choose to conjoin the validity and integrity of Christianity with the validity and integrity of the current book we call the Bible, you are opening that door.



This sounds like "The Artist Formerly Known as Prince".

What do you think the Bible will look like in five years?  Ten years?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> In case anyone has misread what I have been posting, I'm not saying that because the Bible has errors, that proves that Christianity is invalid.  What I'm saying is that if you incorrectly choose to conjoin the validity and integrity of Christianity with the validity and integrity of the current book we call the Bible, you are opening that door.



Ok I understand. It's the same argument I'm making. It's possible for people to do this and some people will.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2013)

John 5:39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. 41 "I do not accept glory from human beings,42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts.

My outlook on this passage is the Scriptures offer the testimony of Jesus and is used for guidance. You can't find Jesus in a book not even the Bible. You can read about him in the Bible but it takes more than that to experience the Word of God.
The Word of God is living and powerful.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Ok I understand. It's the same argument I'm making. It's possible for people to do this and some people will.



Correct.
I think it is a mistake to assert that the book is the inerrant word of God and it's integrity has been supernaturally protected by God over the years.  Scripture has taken so many different forms over the years, it's obvious that is not true.


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## Bama4me (Oct 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 5:39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. 41 "I do not accept glory from human beings,42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts.
> 
> My outlook on this passage is the Scriptures offer the testimony of Jesus and is used for guidance. You can't find Jesus in a book not even the Bible. You can read about him in the Bible but it takes more than that to experience the Word of God.
> The Word of God is living and powerful.



Ok Art... since God reveals things to you apart from His word, tell me what you know about Jesus that isn't found in the Scriptures. Tell me what you know about God that didn't originate with the Scriptures. Tell me what you have learned about the Holy Spirit that came directly from Him.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 15, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Ok Art... since God reveals things to you apart from His word, tell me what you know about Jesus that isn't found in the Scriptures. Tell me what you know about God that didn't originate with the Scriptures. Tell me what you have learned about the Holy Spirit that came directly from Him.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 15, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Correct.
> I think it is a mistake to assert that the book is the inerrant word of God and it's integrity has been supernaturally protected by God over the years.  Scripture has taken so many different forms over the years, it's obvious that is not true.



 It is through the Holy Spirit that the scripture becomes inerrant and infallible. When the words read from paper make the soul stir and what once made you wonder is now clear as day and feeds the soul...that is the Spirit.. a small still voice giving us understanding. Its not the paper, or the letters, or the leather binding. Its not how many verses a man can memorize, but its recognizing the relationship between man and God----and its about you {being no different than any other man} and God { that is the same God He has always been}, your life is in the book.


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## formula1 (Oct 15, 2013)

*Re:*

Will not speak for brother Art, but,

I learned to Love by the Holy Spirit.
I learned to Forgive by the Holy Spirit.
I am still learning how to Follow by the Holy Spirit.
I learned how to Repent by the Holy Spirit.
I am learning how to trust by the Holy Spirit.

Words on a page are just words on a page, but knowing Christ can only be obtained by the revelation of the Holy Spirit.  How else can anyone explain how some who read scriptures find error, or death, or falsehood, or confusion, and some find life and peace and hope in Christ?

It is only by the Holy Spirit that Christ is revealed!

On a lonely night many years ago, God by the Spirit spoke to me and said to me, 'Tonight you must choose between my life and His life!' At the time I new very little of the scriptures!  But I came to know Christ as my Lord that night and it was only by the Holy Spirit!

No one can come any other way!

Bama, you are not wrong that the Scriptures can bring you to Christ, but it still is only by the Holy Spirit that you, me or anyone else can find Christ. 

Anyway, you have my thoughts.  God Bless!


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Ok Art... since God reveals things to you apart from His word, tell me what you know about Jesus that isn't found in the Scriptures. Tell me what you know about God that didn't originate with the Scriptures. Tell me what you have learned about the Holy Spirit that came directly from Him.



Formula1 has some of my views on the Holy Spirit. As you stated the Holy Spirit is the author or inspired the Holy Bible. I do get my basic knowledge and rules from the Bible. I believe the Holy Spirit helps me interpret his book. I know that wasn't one of your questions but thought I'd start there. It's not that I don't believe the Bible is inspired, it's just that I don't believe it has taken the place of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit teaches me things that are more spiritual than about laws and commandments. He reveals to me the truth. He helps me make the right choices. He helps me daily as a guide through my daily life.
I know this is not absolute teachings you are looking for that you can find in the Bible. That being said I do feel God can reveal things to people who have never read the Bible. I don't think he stopped doing this at a certain era of time.

I do have to give up some of my freewill as the Holy Spirit dwells in me. Now when I do something I must ask: Is it me, is it God, or is it Satan?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Ok Art... since God reveals things to you apart from His word, tell me what you know about Jesus that isn't found in the Scriptures. Tell me what you know about God that didn't originate with the Scriptures. Tell me what you have learned about the Holy Spirit that came directly from Him.



Does the Holy Spirit have any input to bring someone to Christ other than the Bible? I think I asked you this before: does the Holy Spirit still guide, comfort, reveal, help communicate, help us pray, help us worship, calls us for definite purposes, or any other roles of being a helper?


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## Bama4me (Oct 15, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Will not speak for brother Art, but,
> 
> I learned to Love by the Holy Spirit.
> I learned to Forgive by the Holy Spirit.
> ...



Formula... but how would you even know what love IS or that should love without Scripture?  Same for forgiveness or any of the other things you cited?  Somehow without the Holy Spirit leading us to do these things, we couldn't read, understand, and apply these ideas in our lives?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2013)

Romans 2:14-15
Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.


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## Bama4me (Oct 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I know this is not absolute teachings you are looking for that you can find in the Bible. That being said I do feel God can reveal things to people who have never read the Bible. I don't think he stopped doing this at a certain era of time.



So how can I trust that what YOU say is truth compared to someone else who claims the EXACT opposite but says he was led by the Spirit also?

In the first century, it would have been relatively simple to determine which one was correct... it would have been the one who had experienced the laying on of the apostle's hands.  Whether you realize it or not, this teaching does away with absolute truth... there is no standard... there is no pattern.  Furthermore, there's absolutely NO way to verify if someone is presenting truth... as long as he says "I'm led by the Spirit," we must accept what he says.


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## Bama4me (Oct 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 2:14-15
> Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.



Your passage states that God wrote his law on their hearts because he gave them a conscience and the ability to reason... He does that with all people, it's how we're made.  It has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit leading a person.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2013)

1 Corinthians 2:9 However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

The Scriptures lets us know this but to me the Holy Spirit reveals and helps by searching all things. This is way more than just the Bible, to include even the deep things of God.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> So how can I trust that what YOU say is truth compared to someone else who claims the EXACT opposite but says he was led by the Spirit also?
> 
> In the first century, it would have been relatively simple to determine which one was correct... it would have been the one who had experienced the laying on of the apostle's hands.  Whether you realize it or not, this teaching does away with absolute truth... there is no standard... there is no pattern.  Furthermore, there's absolutely NO way to verify if someone is presenting truth... as long as he says "I'm led by the Spirit," we must accept what he says.




You can't, you will have to put all your trust in the Lord. Having the Holy Spirit dwelling in us helps us test the spirits,teachers, and preachers.
You can't just use the Bible to test the spirits because the false spirits will be using the same Bible as a way to trick us. If we don't have the Holy Spirit actively helping us, we are all in trouble. 
I'm thinking the Holy Spirit dwelling in us is part of what separates us from non Christians.


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## Bama4me (Oct 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Corinthians 2:9 However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--
> 10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
> 
> The Scriptures lets us know this but to me the Holy Spirit reveals and helps by searching all things. This is way more than just the Bible, to include even the deep things of God.



"Revealed"... not "reveals" - that means it was done in the past (not present or future).  Paul, in this passage, was discussing the source of the gospel.  It was not from man, it was from God.  The Spirit indeed revealed the gospel to man - an example is found in Acts 2.


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## Bama4me (Oct 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> You can't, you will have to put all your trust in the Lord. Having the Holy Spirit dwelling in us helps us test the spirits,teachers, and preachers.
> You can't just use the Bible to test the spirits because the false spirits will be using the same Bible as a way to trick us. If we don't have the Holy Spirit actively helping us, we are all in trouble.
> I'm thinking the Holy Spirit dwelling in us is part of what separates us from non Christians.



Again... if you can show me some bible for what you're saying, I'll agree.  I can show you where people in the New Testament "searched the Scriptures" to see if a man presenting a message claiming to be from a God was telling the truth (Acts 17:11).


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> "Revealed"... not "reveals" - that means it was done in the past (not present or future).  Paul, in this passage, was discussing the source of the gospel.  It was not from man, it was from God.  The Spirit indeed revealed the gospel to man - an example is found in Acts 2.



And likewise the "us" are the members of the Corinthian Church.


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## Bama4me (Oct 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> And likewise the "us" are the members of the Corinthian Church.



Read verses 1-10 and you'll see the entire picture.  Some evidently claimed the gospel message was originating with Paul (man).  Paul clearly said the message came from the Holy Spirit.  He said "us" because when he (Paul) received this message, he shared it with them (Corinthians).  In the first century, that's how things worked.


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## formula1 (Oct 16, 2013)

*Re:*



Bama4me said:


> Formula... but how would you even know what love IS or that should love without Scripture?  Same for forgiveness or any of the other things you cited?  Somehow without the Holy Spirit leading us to do these things, we couldn't read, understand, and apply these ideas in our lives?



2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Sure, we learn more of what we should do with the Scriptures as they are valuable to our walk in Christ, but it still cannot be done without the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural mind cannot understand. It's right there in those wonderful scriptures.

Romans 8
16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

We cannot even know who we are in Christ without the Holy Spirit.  The scriptures you and I both love attest to this truth. Its not like the Scriptures are unimportant, but they are empty without the understanding by the Holy Spirit.

When we try to discount the importance of the Holy Spirit in our lives, we do error to His work in us!

The Scriptures and the Holy Spirit are inseparable!


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Again... if you can show me some bible for what you're saying, I'll agree.  I can show you where people in the New Testament "searched the Scriptures" to see if a man presenting a message claiming to be from a God was telling the truth (Acts 17:11).



The following link can explain it better than me but basically it's the testimony of the Holy Spirit living in a Christian. The test is more than mere reading of words.
It's the way the Holy Spirit indwelling makes a person live that a false spirit could not possibly do. It's about the Holy Spirit confessing.

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/test-the-spirits-to-see-whether-they-are-of-god


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Again... if you can show me some bible for what you're saying, I'll agree.  I can show you where people in the New Testament "searched the Scriptures" to see if a man presenting a message claiming to be from a God was telling the truth (Acts 17:11).



Here are the verses although not so cut and dry.

1 John 3:24–4:6
And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already. Little children, you are of God, and have overcome them; for he who is in you is greater that he who is in the world. They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

The last part of 3:24 refers to the testimony of the Holy Spirit. It says, "And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us." According to this verse we gain assurance of God's presence in our lives ("he abides in us") by the Spirit he has given us. The Spirit testifies that we are God's children, as Paul says in Romans 8:16. But how does the Spirit do this? How does the Spirit's testimony express itself in your life?

The Test of the Spirit's Indwelling 

Let's read 4:1–3.
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already.

Verse 2 says, "By this you know the Spirit of God." In other words John is giving a test by which you can know if someone is being led by the Holy Spirit or by some other spirit. Is the person really of God and indwelt by the Spirit, or is the person of the world and misled by the spirit of this age? How can you tell? What is the test?

The answer of verse 2 is: "every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God." In other words the Holy Spirit testifies to the reality of God in your life by causing you to own up to the truth about Jesus Christ. So when you give a genuine confession of Jesus Christ we can know that you are of God, you have the Holy Spirit.

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/test-the-spirits-to-see-whether-they-are-of-god


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2013)

A couple of verses  & explanations  that show it takes the testimony of the Holy Spirit dwelling in someone:

 The one who is led by the Holy Spirit will always "confess" Jesus. Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit would testify of Him and glorify Him. He said in Jn.16:13-14, "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you."

 Paul states in 1 Cor.12:3, "No one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit."

It all has to be in harmony with the Bible. The Bible is still a part of our knowledge, it's just not the only way the Holy Spirit helps.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 16, 2013)

Oh how I love my brothers, even when they are bonehead wrong! And some surprisingly on the money.

Without using the bible other than trough a paraphrased memory, Paul authority for who he was he attributed or claimed to be Christ Jesus ( see his Road to Demascus references). And even at this, he submitted to the church and Peter as to how he should proceed with his God given ministry. ( He gave Peter a boot in the derriere), but Paul shows by his submission that the Chruch, the elders and Peter were his earthy ministers and authority.

Personally, I think that Hawgjawls posts #65 and #68 are very careful and important. Hawgjawls points out that according to his outlook, if I understand correctly, the Holy Spirit guided individuals and the Holy Spirit inspired scriptures don't always mix in a positive way and that it can be demonstrated that there are spiritual inperfections in each. Both these can chase their tails to no good purpose.

His main point is  that scripture as a basis for authority has no comfort for him. He explain why, which I think has some validity.

Others claim that the Holy Spirit is the authority, that it is the "classroom" on scripture, so to speek. Others state that one can never be certain that our "hearing" from the Holy Spirit is not contaminated by our in part carnal eardrums. And this is simply because many claim the Holy Spirit but come to many different interpretations of scripture.

I would like to venture two points.

 1) Consider the church as an authority to submit to. What are the advantages and what are the negatives. ( I'm sure we have views on this....that are important.)

2) Herecies. How about we turn the discussion in a brotherly way to considering the herecies that came or come out of the individual points we have discussed as authority:

For examples:

a)What are some herecies that came out of having the Holy Spirit as an authority. 

c)What are some of the herecies that came out of the Church as an authority.

b) What about herecies that come out of Scripture as authority.

c) And finally what are some herecies to come out of Jesus as authority?

Have some produced more herecies and problems than others?? Or in what or by what authority(ies) do people then to run off with with the bit clenched between their molars that you find frustrating or in history. 

And finally, Hawgjawl I think a consideration to the church as an authority might cover the problem you have with those you discussed. 

Bye the way I really, really like every one who posted here, what they said and the ways they said it, but I must say that I had some of you pegged "negatively" and some I was too positive on ... so what does that say about me! LOL

I have the bible, I have Christ as my head, I have the church as my body, I have the Holy Spirit as my teacher... and yet you guys add to my heart (in Christ). I'm very fortunate.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 16, 2013)

I'm sure there will be disagreement about the definition of "the Church", but during the religious dark ages there was only one way to God and that was through the Roman Catholic Church.  I offer this as one example of why I may be sceptical of the inspired nature and authority of organized religion.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm sure there will be disagreement about the definition of "the Church", but during the religious dark ages there was only one way to God and that was through the Roman Catholic Church.  I offer this as one example of why I may be sceptical of the inspired nature and authority of organized religion.



You are precious.  I don't think the RCC  authorities ever said they saved folk as they are not the root of Grace and all,  or that they were the only way to God. And I know they don't say this today. The RCC authorites were not always "the church" although they might have thought they were at some points in the past and were never the "only" church as heretics started soon ( first centuries) and some as groups broke off very early... etc...

 A few times the church had to be rescued by the ordinary members . So because organized religion might have cooked up a few flopped cakes--it does not mean that the "real church" did not and cannot find its way to its real bread.

Just because, as an example, government institutions have periodic ADDwith hyperactivity does not mean that the institution does not achieve the benefits to people that it was set up for. 

Take families for example, by objective standards, the worst ones make for the best ones a "hot place on earth." Maybe we should toss that institution to the bin, really. Our only family perhaps the military in lieu? with kids sent to cadet school from age six and they only get two weeks vacation to visit  thier biological people if they so wish.

Just my two cents... and by the way I can trash denominations including mine until I swell up like a hot air ballon and put a fork in myself and do it all over again  and again just for the trill of it. Does not change the fact that the church has some positive authority in christianity....and some like me are very thankful for it.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm sure there will be disagreement about the definition of "the Church", but during the religious dark ages there was only one way to God and that was through the Roman Catholic Church.



You're leaving out the Orthodox and the Copts.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm sure there will be disagreement about the definition of "the Church", but during the religious dark ages there was only one way to God and that was through the Roman Catholic Church.  I offer this as one example of why I may be sceptical of the inspired nature and authority of organized religion.





gordon 2 said:


> You are precious.  I don't think the RCC  authorities ever said they saved folk as they are not the root of Grace and all,  or that they were the only way to God. And I know they don't say this today. The RCC authorites were not always the church in the past and were never the "only" church as heretics started soon and some as groups broke off... etc...
> 
> A few times the church had to be rescued by the ordinary members for them. So because organized religion might have cooked up a few flopped cakes--it does not mean that the "real church" did not and cannot find its way to its real bread.
> 
> ...



My point is that there are different definitions of "the Church", therefore "the Church" is no different than "scripture interpretations" or "guidance by the Holy Spirit".  We are still left having to decide which of the various and often conflicting ones to believe and follow.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm sure there will be disagreement about the definition of "the Church", but during the religious dark ages there was only one way to God and that was through the Roman Catholic Church.  I offer this as one example of why I may be sceptical of the inspired nature and authority of organized religion.


God always maintains a remnant, even during the bloody inquisition of the RCC.


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## Bama4me (Oct 16, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> The following link can explain it better than me but basically it's the testimony of the Holy Spirit living in a Christian. The test is more than mere reading of words.
> It's the way the Holy Spirit indwelling makes a person live that a false spirit could not possibly do. It's about the Holy Spirit confessing.
> 
> http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/test-the-spirits-to-see-whether-they-are-of-god



Art... appreciate the responses.  All the passages you, and others cite, have to do with the Holy Spirit.  However, what is lacking is the question of "what does the Holy Spirit DO to or for a person?"  For instance, Romans 8:16 says "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God".  There, we see a function of the Holy Spirit... but to whom is He "bearing witness to"?  To God?  To the world?  To the one who is the child of God?

John 14:26 is an example of what I am looking for... places where general Christians (not only apostles) were told that the Holy Spirit did things for them/to them.to be applied to all Christians today.  If such passages are found... (1) what do they say and (2) how do we know the teaching relates to the supernatural gift of the Holy Spirit (tongues, prophecy, etc.) or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a Christian?


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## HawgJawl (Oct 16, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> God always maintains a remnant, even during the bloody inquisition of the RCC.



Certainly.  I'm only speaking in context of who is the ultimate authority on Christianity.  During the religious dark ages I would not pick the church.  And today if the church IS the ultimate authority on Christianity, who exactly do you ask for clarification of an issue?

There are many definitions of "the Church" and if it were possible to ask a question of each group that someone calls "the Church", each one would probably give a different answer.

Even the Pope on occassion contradicts a prior Pope on an issue.


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## Bama4me (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Certainly.  I'm only speaking in context of who is the ultimate authority on Christianity.  During the religious dark ages I would not pick the church.  And today if the church IS the ultimate authority on Christianity, who exactly do you ask for clarification of an issue?
> 
> There are many definitions of "the Church" and if it were possible to ask a question of each group that someone calls "the Church", each one would probably give a different answer.
> 
> Even the Pope on occassion contradicts a prior Pope on an issue.



Agree on your assessment of "the church".  The ultimate question one should ask about the church is "what does Christ want in His church?"  A study of the NT will show what He does... and doesn't desire in HIS church.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Certainly.  I'm only speaking in context of who is the ultimate authority on Christianity.  During the religious dark ages I would not pick the church.  And today if the church IS the ultimate authority on Christianity, who exactly do you ask for clarification of an issue?
> 
> There are many definitions of "the Church" and if it were possible to ask a question of each group that someone calls "the Church", each one would probably give a different answer.
> 
> Even the Pope on occassion contradicts a prior Pope on an issue.


I understand. Most skeptics focus their onslaught on the Bible. They see the Bible as the Christian's first principle. It does them no good to challenge the existence of God, when the Bible tells us exactly why they do it, that they are blind and stupid. They can't win. When a skeptic offers a new objection, which is very rare, I consider the objection and easily defeat it with the Bible. This strengthens my faith. They can't win, but they serve God's purpose....for me.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Art... appreciate the responses.  All the passages you, and others cite, have to do with the Holy Spirit.  However, what is lacking is the question of "what does the Holy Spirit DO to or for a person?"  For instance, Romans 8:16 says "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God".  There, we see a function of the Holy Spirit... but to whom is He "bearing witness to"?  To God?  To the world?  To the one who is the child of God?
> 
> John 14:26 is an example of what I am looking for... places where general Christians (not only apostles) were told that the Holy Spirit did things for them/to them.to be applied to all Christians today.  If such passages are found... (1) what do they say and (2) how do we know the teaching relates to the supernatural gift of the Holy Spirit (tongues, prophecy, etc.) or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a Christian?



I admit I can't find a definitive verse that you are asking for. I can only find one like this:
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

I guess "by the Holy Spirit" to you is the Bible.
Do I understand that you don't believe the Holy Spirit dwells in today's Christians?
If we don't get any help from the Holy Spirit except from reading or hearing the Bible, what is his current purpose?
Can we communicate directly with God without the Holy Spirit or do you believe we can communicate with God? Can God speak directly to us?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2013)

Bama, would you say the following Church is close to your beliefs on the Holy Spirit?
From the Church of Christ in Roundlake:
The church of Christ in Round Lake Beach is simply a  local congregation of God's people, just like those you read about in the New Testament. We are are just a non-denominational church of Christ - simply Christians, neither Catholic, Protestant, nor Jewish.  

We believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and we try to follow it as our only authority in religion. Since we find no denominational names in the Bible, we wear no such names. We have no man-made creeds to set forth doctrine because the Bible provides us to all good works (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Following just the Bible will make us just Christians and members of Jesus' true church, just like Peter, Paul, and other New Testament Christians (Acts 11:26) .
We accept Jesus Christ as Lord and respect His authority. Jesus said, "And why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46). To add to or take from the simple instructions of Jesus is to fail to honor Him as Lord (Acts 17:11; Galatians 1:8,9; 2 John 9-11). We have no conferences, synods, councils, or earthly headquarters because Christ has not authorized these. Such man-made systems compete with Christ's authority and often bind human traditions, which Jesus condemned (Matthew 15:3-9). 

B. The Indwelling Is Not a Direct, Personal Habitation. 
What work does the Spirit do that would require a direct, personal indwelling? 
Some emphasize that the Spirit intercedes for us (Rom. 8:26f). But why would this require a personal, direct indwelling? This is not a work done in us, but a work done in heaven on our behalf. 
Many people become completely flustered trying to grasp the idea that the Holy Spirit dwells in them, yet they seem to have no problem whatever with the fact the Father and Son also dwell in them!
Part III. How Does The Spirit Lead Men Today?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

People sometimes wonder, if there is no direct guidance from the Spirit today, then how does the Spirit instruct us to know God's will? 

A. The Spirit Instructs Men through the Scriptures.
All spiritual truth about God's will was delivered to men in the first century and recorded in Scriptures. This message has been preserved, so we today can know the will of God through the Spirit's message in the written word.
Remember that all people who belong to God will have the indwelling. But consider the evidence that Holy Spirit baptism and spiritual gifts have ceased. 
A. All Christians Received the Indwelling, but NOT All Received Holy Spirit Baptism, Direct Guidance, or Miracles. 

http://www.gospelway.com/god/indwelling_spirit.php


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## gordon 2 (Oct 16, 2013)

Colossians 2:8-9

English Standard Version (ESV)


8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits[a] of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,




Colossians 2:10

English Standard Version (ESV)


10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
--------------------------------------------------


I just have got to say that the best example of Jesus and his extreme importance to faith I ever got was when I was a child. The Jesus I understood as a child is pretty much the Jesus I know as a 60 yr old man. I learned things in Jesus from my parents and the church. From the church, from her ministers and a fat painting on the wall at the back of the main alter. 

 I learned about Jesus from what he did, like I learned about my parents from what they did. Jesus loved and so did my parents. Jesus forgave and trust me I don't know how but my parents did also. My parents forgave for the same transgressions more than once; and so did Jesus. My parents lived for me. So did Jesus. My parents would of died for me, so would Jesus. Jesus was slow to anger, so were my parents. But anger did come to both. My parents prized peace, fairness and sharing, respect of their parent, respect for people, so did Jesus.  And so on.... 


 It is there today, to the left of where I sat, the painting of him nearly a hundred yrs old, perhaps eight feet high by 12 feet wide. It is a picture, a representation, of Jesus as the good shepherd. He is sitting on a mountainside. Jeruselem is below him. He has lambs feeding all around him and in his arms a single lamb. ( It was an account of an inspiration, of an understanding, and wisdom in the church, in the heart of His people, in addition to scripture. It gathered in itself more of Christ than any single account of him as shepherd in scripture-- it reached out to much more of him.) 

I was that lamb in his arms for a long time. Today I have carried lambs to my lord, I have copied. I have learned to carress the haughty as I was carressed...in Christ.

And this is one of  my witnesses... that for the cross I was baptised into the church and that as a child and even today I was,  I am still about and to the spirit that my shepard gave...which is not different than the spirit in you, in you who know to hear his voice.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 17, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Agree on your assessment of "the church".  The ultimate question one should ask about the church is "what does Christ want in His church?"  A study of the NT will show what He does... and doesn't desire in HIS church.



The problem is that most Christians do not study the Bible.  Most Christians have never even read the entire Bible, so most of the congregation's "understanding" of the Bible was spoon fed to them by the church.  And what the church chooses to spoon feed it's congregation will most likely portray that particular church in a good light.  Any scripture that makes that church look bad will not be chosen for the spoon feeding.  Most Christians do not have an adequate foundation to accurately assess their church.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The problem is that most Christians do not study the Bible.  Most Christians have never even read the entire Bible, so most of the congregation's "understanding" of the Bible was spoon fed to them by the church.  And what the church chooses to spoon feed it's congregation will most likely portray that particular church in a good light.  Any scripture that makes that church look bad will not be chosen for the spoon feeding.  Most Christians do not have an adequate foundation to accurately assess their church.



And what, according to you, would such a foundation look like in the real world? I mean with a mindset in Christ assessments skills can't be a rarety. And besides parents know when and that their kin are sick without the help of physicians. ??? Being a christian is a spirit relationship in kinship. ??? Study and assessment is a shared competency--one individual alone can not do it all. And as individuals who have died to natures where they had no access to faith to having access to such a faith the promises of God are made plain. Hopes are not false--though creation patiently groans with labour. The hopes of unity in fellowship to the things wholesome to God are enough for our assessments, even for the assessments of our children, to be discerning. The hopes of christians are not hopes in that things  that might be, it is hope on the days they will be.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 17, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> And what, according to you, would such a foundation look like in the real world? I mean with a mindset in Christ assessments skills can't be a rarety. And besides parents know when and that their kin are sick without the help of physicians. ??? Being a christian is a spirit relationship in kinship. ??? Study and assessment is a shared competency--one individual alone can not do it all. And as individuals who have died to natures where they had no access to faith to having access to such a faith the promises of God are made plain. Hopes are not false--though creation patiently groans with labour. The hopes of unity in fellowship to the things wholesome to God are enough for our assessments, even for the assessments of our children, to be discerning. The hopes of christians are not hopes in that things  that might be, it is hope on the days they will be.



Unless you believe that all religions groups under the loose heading of Christianity are true and accurate, which is impossible since many directly contradict each other, then the existence of congregations following each of those various religious leaders serves as proof that the proper assessment you are speaking of is not occurring.

If we further break down Christiantity into the Evangelical Protestant, and then Evangelical Baptist, and then Southern Baptist, etc., every individual group is so small compared to the whole that there no longer exists a majority view.


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## Bama4me (Oct 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Bama, would you say the following Church is close to your beliefs on the Holy Spirit?
> From the Church of Christ in Roundlake:
> The church of Christ in Round Lake Beach is simply a  local congregation of God's people, just like those you read about in the New Testament. We are are just a non-denominational church of Christ - simply Christians, neither Catholic, Protestant, nor Jewish.
> 
> ...



Art... if you'll check the snake thread, you see it posted.  Thanks.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 18, 2013)

Here is a thought regarding the importance God seemed to place upon the New Testament.

There's not a single sentence of scripture that is purportedly written by Jesus Christ.  If God had intended such profound significance be placed upon the written record found in the New Testament of the Bible, why didn’t Jesus spend half His life writing?  Who would have been in a better position to completely understand the will of God and accurately transcribe it than Jesus?  

The Ten Commandments were important enough for God Himself to write, when he could have just told Moses, who spoke face-to-face with Him, to write them down.  As important as the Ten Commandments were, we place much more significance upon the writing of the New Testament.

Many on this thread assert that the writing of the New Testament (creation or assembly of the Bible) took the place of miracles performed to authenticate the message of God.  The writing of the Ten Commandments by God Himself did not end the need for miracles but the Bible did.  If the writing of the New Testament was of such great importance in God's plan, why did He not write it Himself like He did the Ten Commandments? 

If Jesus didn't want to write His autobiography and instructions for all future believers, why didn’t Jesus instruct His disciples to transcribe His teachings for future generations as He was speaking?  

The parts of the New Testament in red should all start with "This is important, somebody write this down".  And somewhere we should find the instruction from Jesus to His disciples that they need to perform miracles and spread the message verbally for a short time while they compile the Bible, but their primary goal and God's plan is for them to assemble that Bible.


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## formula1 (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re:*

Hawgjawl:

Your last post was very thoughtful and inquisitive.  I may not agree with it all, but it is certainly thought provoking.

Allow me to be very clear.  I love the scriptures!  I think they are a valuable tool for teaching us how to walk as Christians and help us to understand what God is saying to each one of us.  We don't have the canon we have by accident and I'm grateful for it.  As my Pastor says often,  "If you read this book, you hear His voice"!  Of that I am sure.

In many ways, however, I do feel that man has made scriptures their King, rather than make Christ Jesus their King. Reminds me in a way when the Isrealites wanted a King, but God wanted to be their King! And in the same manner, we say, we want a clear guidebook, when God wants to pour His Spirit in each one of us (HE wants to be our King).  In other words, give me some clearly written plan, as I don't want to take on the challenge of being lead by the Spirit of God.

I understand why so many are this way.  We have many historical bad examples.  The Mormons, the JW's might be some cited.  More often I think the most cited one was Jim Jones.  He probably put more fear in Christians of revelation and the Holy Spirit than anyone.  But anyone with half a brain and a little Scriptural knowledge would have known that as false.  This is where I see the canon as most valuable.

Also, this idea that Gifts are dead is not from God, but many use it to explain why someone sick is not healed or explain away the obvious experiences with the Holy Spirit that so many have had, so take a few words in scripture out of context, and all of a sudden, we have a new doctrine that is the law of many denominations.  I'll just use the words of Jesus here as say 'Wisdom is proved by her children".

I know that most of my words here won't be popular but the simple truth is man's knowledge almost always makes a mess of God's intent.  We've been doing it since the beginning of time.  And I'm not afraid to say that I am as guilty as the next person of this fact.  

Yet I am convinced that God knows exactly what He is doing through Christ our Lord even if we are not always privy to His plan.  Everything, even the errors in doctrine or flaws in a written canon (if they exist), are being used for His purpose.  He is pressing us all toward something and you know what it is:

Faith, Hope, Trust, and Love  in and through Christ - these are what He desires to come alive in all of us.  If we would just look in a mirror and say to ourselves God wants this for me and spend our time working on these things, I suppose I would not have time to cast my own doubt on a brothers point of view.

Didn't know I'd write that much when I started, but thanks for sharing your own thoughts.


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## BT Charlie (Oct 18, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Agree on your assessment of "the church".  The ultimate question one should ask about the church is "what does Christ want in His church?"  A study of the NT will show what He does... and doesn't desire in HIS church.




Bama could you share with us what Jesus says in scripture about how our denominations should or should not believe.  Thnx


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## BT Charlie (Oct 18, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Hawgjawl:
> 
> Your last post was very thoughtful and inquisitive.  I may not agree with it all, but it is certainly thought provoking.
> 
> ...




Great post, Formula.  Thank you.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 18, 2013)

Again, "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." (Galatians 3:8)

We know that it was God who spoke to Abraham in Genesis. There is no distinction between God and Scripture. If I say "God commands you..." or "the Bible commands you...", it is equal in authority. It is equal in truth. This is essential to a Christian!


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## Bama4me (Oct 18, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Bama could you share with us what Jesus says in scripture about how our denominations should or should not believe.  Thnx



Searching the NT, you'll find how churches should be led, what activities compose "worship", the purposes of its existence, etc.  Problem today is that people seek a church which pleases THEM... and give little or no thought about what GOD wants.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Hawgjawl:
> 
> Your last post was very thoughtful and inquisitive.  I may not agree with it all, but it is certainly thought provoking.
> 
> ...



Great post and I agree completely with you on this topic. I can't add too much to your words but there is a big difference between the Bible and the Holy Spirit's indwelling in us. 
If the Bible is the one and only source of the "truth" then why all the differences? I'm going to have to place my trust in God using the Holy Spirit's guidance as my source for the "truth." I too understand the importance of the Bible. We would be lost without it. We have to have a starting point, a reference.
It's the Bible that lets us know we have a helper. And no the 'Helper/Comforter" wasn't just for the disciples.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Again, "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." (Galatians 3:8)
> 
> We know that it was God who spoke to Abraham in Genesis. There is no distinction between God and Scripture. If I say "God commands you..." or "the Bible commands you...", it is equal in authority. It is equal in truth. This is essential to a Christian!



So you would agree the Holy Spirit, who searches the deep things of God, is privy to all his counsels and decrees?
Where does the "scripture" fit into the Trinity? You did say there is no distinction between God and the Scripture. Is the Scripture equal to your King?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2013)

Again, is the Bible the same "Word" that was with God from the beginning? If it isn't then we can't associate it with the same importance as the "Word" that was made flesh. 
You might can but I can't. 
As an example would be the United States flag or a wedding ring. Both are very important and dear to my heart. 
I don't like it but it has no bearing on the United States or my marriage if someone destroys the flag or my ring.
Someone could gather up every Bible and destroy them and the Word of Jesus will never be destroyed. The whole world will be destroyed and the word of Jesus will still be with us. How can you think that is a Bible?


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## Israel (Oct 19, 2013)

Unless you eat my flesh...

Would leave many, it would seem, in a quandary...or quite despondent.
And as for plucking out eyes...

Perhaps despair of our own understanding is not a bad thing, at all.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> So you would agree the Holy Spirit, who searches the deep things of God, is privy to all his counsels and decrees?


The Spirit of God is equal in all attributes.


Artfuldodger said:


> Where does the "scripture" fit into the Trinity?


It is the words of the Trinity.


Artfuldodger said:


> You did say there is no distinction between God and the Scripture. Is the Scripture equal to your King?


Of course, there is no difference. If a man tells me, "I believe in Jesus but I don't believe what he says", I can only respond with "repent and be baptized".


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## BT Charlie (Oct 19, 2013)

Israel said:


> Unless you eat my flesh...
> 
> Would leave many, it would seem, in a quandary...or quite despondent.
> And as for plucking out eyes...
> ...



Waitress? Um, may I have some of that despair thing he is having this morning.  Thank you.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 21, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> The Spirit of God is equal in all attributes.
> 
> It is the words of the Trinity.
> 
> Of course, there is no difference. If a man tells me, "I believe in Jesus but I don't believe what he says", I can only respond with "repent and be baptized".



Scripture has taken many different forms over the years; ancient Hebrew and Aramaic scrolls, Greek Septuagint, early Latin Bible, Wycliffe's English translation, William Tyndale's New Testament, Myles Coverdale's Bible, Tyndale-Matthews Bible, Rheim's New Testament, Geneva Bible, to name a few.

These earlier forms were used in creating what we have now as the Bible.

Do you believe that all of these earlier forms were equally God's word?


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## 04ctd (Oct 25, 2013)

some GREAT points in here...who spun Formula up? he is on the ball!!

FWIW, here's how I described errors in the Bible to teenagers:

-there are certain errors in the Bible (as cited above)
-these errors are there so that man CANNOT "reason" his way to salvation.
-a man must come to know Jesus Christ as his personal savior by knowing Christ in his heart, reading the Bible, praying, and finding out God's will for his life. 

you confess your faith in Jesus Christ, because of the truths you see in the Bible that are manifested in your daily lives, not because you "reasoned it out"

some will turn away from God/Jesus and blame it on those errors in the Bible.

God wants you to fully depend on Him  in your lack of understanding (of worldy things) and lack of reason..He wants you to depend wholly on Jesus Christ's sacrifical payment for your sins...NOT on your 'reasoning it out' on your own.


FWIW, the Church is 'ALIVE' today....we had a family down on thier luck, they are getting the keys to a house to rent tonite, and have NOTHING.  last Sunday night, at the monthly finger food social, the women all grabbed the wife and made a quick list of what they could give her, and she broke down crying, tears streaming down her cheeks.  

That's God alive and well, showing His power, strength and mercy through common people today. 

My God not's dead..He's surely alive!


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## 04ctd (Nov 5, 2013)

been pondering this, and since we are circling this subject, will ask here instead of starting a new thread:

-is the Bible the "Word of God"
-or is Jesus Christ the "Word of God"

this is the context I am referring to:
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

quick search


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## centerpin fan (Nov 5, 2013)

04ctd said:


> -is the Bible the "Word of God"
> -or is Jesus Christ the "Word of God"



The Bible is the _written_ word of God.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 5, 2013)

John 1:1 is explaining how Jesus is the revealer or messenger of God. What Jesus said became. Jesus was God's communicator. Logos or "Word" means communicate. Jesus was the Logos. God's message was revealed as Jesus was the reason. Jesus was God's message. Jesus revealed this in words and actions. 
Maybe "Word" wasn't the best word to translate "Logos."


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## G5BONECRUSHER (Nov 23, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Amen.  I agree.
> OfteI, trying to separate them is an indicationOwn Revelationa cop-out.  I know a couple who are living that right now.
> "I don't live by the Bible, I allow Christ to lead me".
> ???????? Doesn't make sense.  All become the one.
> .



Agreed.

John 1:1I


In The Beginning Was The Word "Logos" (There Is More To The Meaning Of Logos Than I Can Understand Or Words Can Explain.

Wisdom, Reason, spirit, Revelation,And Will Of God. 

And The Word Was God, (The Word Is God)
 And The Word Was With God.(The Word Is God Yet Is Somehow Distinguishable)

The Logos Became Flesh. John 1:14


Jesus Christ Is The Living word Who Became Human And In His Human Life Lived Out God's Personification Of Himself In A Form form That We Could Relate To. In Human Death Paid The Price For Mine And Your Sins, And Expressed The Depth And Breadth Of His Love For Us In The Greatest Form Of A Sacrifice That We Can understand.

The Holy Spirit Is The Spirit God. EphesianS 4:4-6
The Spirit Lives Within The Believer, Romans 8:9

The Spirit Enables, Convicts,Guides, Testifies, Gives Us assurance
Strengthens, The Believer.

However The Word That Is Spoken Of Isn't The Written Bible. The Bible. 

The Bible Is A documentation written By Men Inspired By aNd Ordained By God Of The History,rev And Testimony Of God's Works Past Present And To Come.

God, Jesus, And The Spirit Are One. He Is The One And only Authority. The Scriptures Cannot Be Interpreted Without The leading And Discernment Of The Holy Spirit. 

He Can Not And Will Not Contradict Himself.

The Church Is Certainly Not The Authority, We Are the Bride, And Must Submit To Our Savior.

This Is My Understanding Only And I Am Sure There Are Many Who Will Disagree With Me Somewhere In That.

Sorry For All ThE Caps My Phone Is Doing That Can't Figure Out why.


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## Israel (Nov 24, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 1:1 is explaining how Jesus is the revealer or messenger of God. What Jesus said became. Jesus was God's communicator. Logos or "Word" means communicate. Jesus was the Logos. God's message was revealed as Jesus was the reason. Jesus was God's message. Jesus revealed this in words and actions.
> Maybe "Word" wasn't the best word to translate "Logos."



I think of Marshall McLuhan and his book, and thesis.
"The Medium is the Message"

A living epistle.


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## 1222DANO (Nov 24, 2013)

i just wanted to give my opinion and how i based my life on what i read in the bible. i noticed mixed responses and didn't read all of them.

GOD= king and father to Jesus, he's a king if you ask of him he's liable to make you learn a valuable lesson. just like a king would. he's should be bowed down too in a humble and true meaning way. not as a heathen. and Jesus tells us how to pray to him in the book of Matthew. God brings wrath also.

Jesus= love,forgiveness and understanding. the way we should live our lives. call onto him for your prayers to get through the day. a king doesn't wanna hear your every little need unless you need his power and authority on it but be careful what you ask . if you want comfort go to Jesus. this is why we go to church and see Jesus there so we can show our love and forgiveness to one another. notice the images of jesus in a church none of God. he died for our sins to be washed away if we'll lay them down at the altar.

Church= where we go to do our good works to man,women and their children. show the love of Jesus in our hearts to each other and uplift one another. try to help the needy and afflicted.

Holy spirit= it protects and guides us throughout the day when we're not praying and going about our daily activity's. why its important to fill you heart full of the holy spirit so it'll make you strong and able to stand on your beliefs without falling back into your sins. 

Faith starts at home and i believe is one reason why people have gotten off track. we've become tied up by all these electronic things and having to work chasing money and we have gotten away from our rocks our house's was built upon. the book of James tells us that faith without good works is dead and good works without faith is dead. I have gotten off track throughout life and i have my rock now and i don't go to church for my faith. i go to church for my good works and to uplift my brothers and sisters that might be in need or some uplifting of their spirit.

i also now notice its important for us to pay down our debts and free our souls of the burden of being a ''slave to lender'' 
we had a sermon on the rich man and lazarus, he layed outside the rich mans house eat up with sores living off crumbs. its the point to life to help one another, can't give people what you think they deserve or your soul is doomed. if we're caught up in paying all bills and not helping each other. it makes us workers of iniquity. he'll cast you away and say he never knew you.
we'll be judged by whats in our hearts, we should lead with our hearts not our mouth or mind. if you do right by your heart and WWJD then you'll be fine. if you over think things and withhold things cause it would cost you to lose something and you choose not to offer up what you have. it could have been the love they needed to fill their hearts or get gas to find Jesus. you don't wanna hender no one from anything, 
psalms 1-1, great start.


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## hawglips (Nov 27, 2013)

> What, who is the authority in christianity?



Jesus Christ


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