# Am I being a jerk....?



## Bitteroot (Feb 26, 2010)

I'm coaching soccer again this year for my little girls team.  We got a really good draft with about 60% above average talent.  We've been practicing several nights a week and I and another parent (experienced hispanic soccer player/coach) thinks we have an above average shot at winning the leauge.  Then last night....my 2 best players/brothers get the schedule and I hear..."we can't play on Saturday since we go to church"!  Now guys I understand commitment to Church and Religion and have not problem with it at all.....but I wouldn't sign my kids up for something that they were'nt going to be able to fulfill thier obligation in.  I mean come on.... it's not like they didn't know that 50% of the games were on Saturday.  So for me I like to win and win BIG!  So their parents ask if they can stay on the team... I say yes...but their playing time will be limited so the kids that are here all the time can play even if they aren't as good.   Am I being unreasonable in this?  The parents are ticked off at me.... but it's just the way it is!  You show up and commit the same as the rest of the kids...or you don't play!


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## Twenty five ought six (Feb 26, 2010)

What are you going to do when you get kids that have to go visit daddy every other weekend?  Bench the kid because his parents got divorced.


First, it's not the kid's choice, and secondly, there are more important things in life than soccer/football/baseball.  As I read your post, Jews, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, shouldn't sign their children up for league activities because they will miss half the games.  Is that really the image you want to project?

Would you be happier if the children went contrary to their religious teaching just so they could play soccer?

Also you are penalizing the rest of the team by benching the best players.

Speaking of best players, inquiring minds want to know why the best players on your little girls team are brothers.


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## fulldraw74 (Feb 26, 2010)

Twenty five ought six said:


> What are you going to do when you get kids that have to go visit daddy every other weekend?  Bench the kid because his parents got divorced.
> 
> 
> First, it's not the kid's choice, and secondly, there are more important things in life than soccer/football/baseball.  As I read your post, Jews, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, shouldn't sign their children up for league activities because they will miss half the games.  Is that really the image you want to project?
> ...



x2.......

After all its about the kids having fun and not the coaches "wanting to win".......

and BTW.....Whats up with the "brothers" on the girls team?

Tough situation.........


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## wharfrat (Feb 26, 2010)

Move on. Time to show your coaching skills now. Like they said about the Bear "he could take his'n and beat your'n and he could take your'n and beat his'n". And them kids that were ridin' the pine with the two brothers gettin' all the play will get more time now when the 2 are at church. Everybody loves to win, but enjoy coachin with what it brings you.
I know, because I have coached and learned. And when I played, my philosophy was winning wasn't everything, it was the only thing. (G. Allen quote I think) I was wrong. I think the best you can hope for is that they give you everything and play as a TEAM, and I imagine you'll be right up there at the end.
AND.... if the kids parents knew their sons were going to miss half the games, they could have given a heads up. I gotta feeling they would still have been drafted fairly high.


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## Bitteroot (Feb 26, 2010)

Twenty five ought six said:


> What are you going to do when you get kids that have to go visit daddy every other weekend?  Bench the kid because his parents got divorced.
> 
> We have actually had that happen and they still play but not as much as the other kids.  It's not the teams fault that the kids can't be there either.
> 
> ...



Again...I'm not saying I'm dead right about this...and it actually has bothered me a good bit!  I want different points of view and thank you for yours!


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## wharfrat (Feb 26, 2010)

didn't even notice the bro's on a girls team! that's what i'd call a coupla ringers for sure. oh my......


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## wharfrat (Feb 26, 2010)

wharfrat said:


> didn't even notice the bro's on a girls team! that's what i'd call a coupla ringers for sure. oh my......



just saw where it was co-ed. beat 'em with what you got coach!!


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## JustUs4All (Feb 26, 2010)

I think you probably made the wrong call on this one.


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## greene_dawg (Feb 26, 2010)

No root... You're 100% in the right IMO. I coach little league sports too and I tell the parents and players at the very first practice that if you habitually miss practices and games that I can't justify playing you over a kid that shows up at every one and works his/her tail off no matter how good they are. Sorry...


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## rex upshaw (Feb 26, 2010)

fulldraw74 said:


> x2.......
> 
> After all its about the kids having fun and not the coaches "wanting to win".......
> 
> .........



the way i read it, he said that he wouldn't play the kids that missed, even if they were better.  i think what root is doing is correct.  if you aren't going to be at practice and put in the work, then the parents shouldn't feel that their kids are OWED the opportunity to get more pt, then a kid who is there at every practice.

also, the parents knew the situation prior to getting their kids involved.  you ask what kind of message is he (root) sending?  i would ask what kind of message are the parents sending to their own children.  are they saying that you don't have to put in the work in order to play and everything will be handed to you?  

the responsibility lies firmly on the parents and for them to be upset, i think is foolish.


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## KDarsey (Feb 26, 2010)

I agree. I think probably it isn't the going to Church thing, it is the missing games and practice thing. 
  I used to coach (baseball & softball) and it didn't matter how good the kid was if he or she couldn't practice and I couldn't count on them being at the games then the other kids got the playing time.
   I once had 2 brothers too that were so good the parents thought they could skip some practices AND play every inning of every game never sitting out.
   They were wrong....they didn't like me (still don't) but the boys didn't play if they didn't practice.


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## bam_bam (Feb 26, 2010)

I believe your right Root. It is a tough situation for sure, but why should you punish the ones the arent as good but show up and put in the time at practice to get better (cause thats what practice is for) just to be benched 50% of the time cause the kids with a natural talent just slide right in and take his/her place. What would be there incentive to try to be better? Like you said the parents prolly knew before signing up junior there were gonna be games on saturday.


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## Sugar Plum (Feb 26, 2010)

I don't think you did anything wrong at all. If the kids can't show up to practice, then they shouldn't expect to be picked for the first round in the games.


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## reylamb (Feb 26, 2010)

I dont think he said they are missing practice, they are missing some games.  Isn't missing half the games punishment enough?

This is a rec league I take it....how old are we talking about here?  15 years from now the kids will not remember if they won or what they won, but they will remember if their coach was a jerk.  Besides, if they are fairly young then they need to be learning the game and having fun.  I know, 30 years later I remember the worst team I played on, although I can not tell you the record, but I can tell you the coach was a jerk.....

I mean, seriously, who is this about, the kids or you winning some title....yes, I know, you want to "win and win big....."


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## Sunshine1 (Feb 26, 2010)

I'm not old, but I'm old school when it comes to stuff like this. If you don't practice or show up for games, you don't play. Period. And I also don't agree with ALL the kids getting trophies at the end of the season. Only the winning team should. I mean, really.........what's the point? What does that teach?? That no matter how bad you play  you still get rewarded?? I beg to differ. I may not be politically correct but I believe in order to get something you must first earn it.


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## Uncle Dawg Bone (Feb 26, 2010)

No you are not being a jerk.  Had same situation on son's BB team a few years ago. No easy solution. It hurts the kids that are there all the time when the others miss games.


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## golffreak (Feb 26, 2010)

The players that consistantly make practice and games should get the most playing time regardless of talent.


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## Harlee (Feb 26, 2010)

greene_dawg said:


> No root... You're 100% in the right IMO. I coach little league sports too and I tell the parents and players at the very first practice that if you habitually miss practices and games that I can't justify playing you over a kid that shows up at every one and works his/her tail off no matter how good they are. Sorry...




AMEN BROTHER!


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## Harlee (Feb 26, 2010)

reylamb said:


> I dont think he said they are missing practice, they are missing some games.  Isn't missing half the games punishment enough? The parents should have never signed them up if they knew they would miss half of the games.  So no, it is not punishment enough, the coach is not making them miss half the games.  They need to learn that they get out of life what they put into it.  If they can't commit fully they get less play time.
> 
> This is a rec league I take it....how old are we talking about here?  15 years from now the kids will not remember if they won or what they won, but they will remember if their coach was a jerk.  Besides, if they are fairly young then they need to be learning the game and having fun.  I know, 30 years later I remember the worst team I played on, although I can not tell you the record, but I can tell you the coach was a jerk.....
> 
> I mean, seriously, who is this about, the kids or you winning some title....yes, I know, you want to "win and win big....."



To be honest, the kids probably understand it is most likely the parents that are making the stink.


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## bullgator (Feb 26, 2010)

Those, like you, that volunteer their time to coach youth sports are as much mentors as coaches. I truly believe that aside from my parents, I learned as many life lessons from coaches as teachers. Take the league championship out of the equation and decide what lesson/message you feel the best about conveying and stick to it.....


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## rex upshaw (Feb 26, 2010)

FloridaHunter said:


> I'm not old, but I'm old school when it comes to stuff like this. If you don't practice or show up for games, you don't play. Period. And I also don't agree with ALL the kids getting trophies at the end of the season. Only the winning team should. I mean, really.........what's the point? What does that teach?? That no matter how bad you play  you still get rewarded?? I beg to differ. I may not be politically correct but I believe in order to get something you must first earn it.



what's even worse, in some leagues, they don't even keep score.


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## greene_dawg (Feb 26, 2010)

Kudos to you root for stepping up and taking on a team. Too many parents have no clue how much time and effort it takes to run a team and way too often they forget that all of the adults out there (minus the umps getting $50/day) are volunteers. The parents that complain the loudest are the ones who never ever offer to help out. We had 66 girls sign up for 12U girls fastpitch. Out of 132 parents, only 5 of them signed up to manage until 1 stepped up to the plate to take on the 6th team on the day of tryouts. Unfortunately it's easy to coach from the bleachers. Do what you think is right and make sure the parents and kids both understand why you're doing it and press on. You'll never please them all, as much as you try.


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## Mako22 (Feb 26, 2010)

Church is on Sunday so either show up for Saturday practice or ride the bench!


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## maker4life (Feb 26, 2010)

Here the rec league shuts down on Wendsday nights and Sundays for church . No games or practice .  Does that penalize the kids of other faiths that do church on different days ? 

I don't know . It's a tough situation but I'm right with you on sticking to a commitment .


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## K80 (Feb 26, 2010)

I agree with ya root.


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## Bitteroot (Feb 27, 2010)

I appreciate everyones opinion... as far as the kids go it's a raw deal for them but this is the way I'm gonna play.  I did mention that I like to win.. who doesn't but I probably WON'T by not playing these kids as much.. and we won't be as strong when they are not there.  As per rules if a kid shows up in Rec soccer they get to play half a game reguardless of practice attendance.  I will play within the rules but no more.  Where these kids would have probably played the whole game they will only play 50 %.. its the other kids that I'm thinkin of too and OBVIOUSLY not winning at all costs! My little girl is probably the best player on the team overall but will only play 75% to sub the other players as well.  If it was ALL ABOUT WINNING she would play all the time in Goal and the other team might not even score! She has played successfully against players much older than these! So who's being fair here. I am about teaching kids life lessons as well... it's up to the parents to teach those things too.  The kids that are not there as often IMO should not get the same degree of favor as the others that are, reguardless of thier ability! I think everybody would agree that the proper mix (all things being equal) that every kid play the same amount of time.  You can't due to the amount of players, playing time and substitutes available. So for the team you would play the best players as often as you could and give as much time as you could to the others as well.  So now things are not equal... so who pays the price... the kids that are there.... or the ones that aren't? To me SINCE WINNING ISN'T ALL that matters, the choise is obvious.  Wish I could please everyone.. but that wouldn't happen even in a perfect scenario... you that have coached know that the coaching is always better from the parents on the other side of the field!


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## Mako22 (Feb 27, 2010)

maker4life said:


> Here the rec league shuts down on Wendsday nights and Sundays for church . No games or practice .  Does that penalize the kids of other faiths that do church on different days ?
> 
> I don't know . It's a tough situation but I'm right with you on sticking to a commitment .



Wait till you step up to 9-10 year old football at Barber park, some of the coaches like to sneak in some Sunday and Wednesday practices so they can win.


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## rospaw (Feb 27, 2010)

A "winning season" would be no one gets hurt, everybody has a good time and everyone learns something!


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## Bitteroot (Feb 27, 2010)

rospaw said:


> A "winning season" would be no one gets hurt, everybody has a good time and everyone learns something!



yea liberals call it that when they can't compete!  I call what you mention a "successfull" season! You must be one of the ones that want every kid to get a trophy and don't keep score.... yea that's a real life lesson... how bout free (to you) health care and equal pay for everyjob no matter what your contribution to the company is as well!


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## mjfortner (Feb 27, 2010)

Yes you are being a jerk. They are children and winning shouldnt be te most important thing to them.


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## Bitteroot (Feb 27, 2010)

mjfortner said:


> Yes you are being a jerk. They are children and winning shouldnt be te most important thing to them.



either read everything I stated on the subject... or take a reading class and get back with me.... how many ways do I have to say it?


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## injun joe (Feb 27, 2010)

From my personal coaching experience, I'm all about commitment (my wife gives the greatest commitment speech I've ever heard and my college age daughters still jokingly refer to it from time to time). But unless I read it wrong, these boys aren't skipping practice. They're saying that can't make Saturday games because of church conflict. If that's the case, it would be hard for me to hold that against them even though their parents probably knew it at sign-up. I believe I would judge their participation based on all the other practices and games. At that age, none of them wants to miss a game to go to church. Just my opinion.....


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## Lonnie in the mountains (Feb 27, 2010)

Bitteroot said:


> I appreciate everyones opinion... as far as the kids go it's a raw deal for them but this is the way I'm gonna play.  I did mention that I like to win.. who doesn't but I probably WON'T by not playing these kids as much.. and we won't be as strong when they are not there.  As per rules if a kid shows up in Rec soccer they get to play half a game reguardless of practice attendance.  I will play within the rules but no more.  Where these kids would have probably played the whole game they will only play 50 %.. its the other kids that I'm thinkin of too and OBVIOUSLY not winning at all costs! My little girl is probably the best player on the team overall but will only play 75% to sub the other players as well.  If it was ALL ABOUT WINNING she would play all the time in Goal and the other team might not even score! She has played successfully against players much older than these! So who's being fair here. I am about teaching kids life lessons as well... it's up to the parents to teach those things too.  The kids that are not there as often IMO should not get the same degree of favor as the others that are, reguardless of thier ability! I think everybody would agree that the proper mix (all things being equal) that every kid play the same amount of time.  You can't due to the amount of players, playing time and substitutes available. So for the team you would play the best players as often as you could and give as much time as you could to the others as well.  So now things are not equal... so who pays the price... the kids that are there.... or the ones that aren't? To me SINCE WINNING ISN'T ALL that matters, the choise is obvious.  Wish I could please everyone.. but that wouldn't happen even in a perfect scenario... you that have coached know that the coaching is always better from the parents on the other side of the field!



You are doing the right thing !


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## Havana Dude (Feb 27, 2010)

How old are these kids? To me, there is  a fine line between having fun, and being competitive. When things start to matter, at  a certain age, then I think rules, discipline, competitiveness, winning/losing, knowing the game well, all come into play. In my eyes, being competitive starts about high school age. By that I mean, at this point, the best of the best get to play. Then when they don't cut the mustard, second string gets a whack at it. Young children should be allowed to have fun, learn the game, sportsmanship, and be brought into the competitive side of things gradually. Typically, coaches are more competitive than the players. It's not about the coaches, it's about the kids. I've seen it first hand with my son when he played. He wasn't the best on the team, but he didn't sit down and pull weeds either!!. The coach lied to him about playing, and he got tired of it. 

Sir, I will not call you a jerk, as I do not know you or your situation. My feelings about it do not line up with yours. Although I agree in principle with what you are doing, some of it is wasted on the very young. And lets not forget, these kids have no choice but to do what their parents tell them to do. If they are previously committed to church, or school, or an underwater basketweaving class, then that is their first priority. Asking them to ditch that is exactly what you don't want them to do to you. You asked for opinions, I gave mine.


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## DeWalt (Feb 27, 2010)

Lets see..........punish children for going to church..yeah that's sending them the right message.

My vote is yes, you are being a jerk.
I think some part of you must agree or you wouldn't have asked the question in the first place


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## Bitteroot (Feb 27, 2010)

DeWalt said:


> Lets see..........punish children for going to church..yeah that's sending them the right message.
> 
> My vote is yes, you are being a jerk.
> I think some part of you must agree or you wouldn't have asked the question in the first place




Not punishing them for going to church...not punishing them at all.... just not letting them play as much because of lack of participation in regular scheduled games.  If it was "underwater basket weaving" another sport, full contact tiddly winks, then the situation would be the same. Give equal time.. get equal reward... so it sounds like you'd rather win at all costs even if the others are contributing more, and more often.  Yea, get in line with a couple of the others for trophys for everyone!.  And at this level.. it is competitve... take a trip over to the state tourney sometime and you'll see how competitve it really is.  We took 2nd in state last year with a similar team.  We probably should not have gotten that far... but we were in a zone!  If you think it doesn't matter to the kids if they win or lose....ask them!  They play thier hearts out everytime they walk on the field. Winning isn't everything... but giving it everything you have is!

By the way we just finished our first game a little while ago... we tied without the two boys in question.  I am almost cetain that my kids would have won with them because they fill the two lacking positions at center and right forward.  So who stands to suffer the most... the kids.. or the team? Fullfill your commitment in life and chose what it will be.. stand by it... but don't feel bad when the world doesn't hand you a freebie cause you chose a differnet path!


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## fairhopebama (Feb 27, 2010)

It's a no win situation. Good luck, but remember, winning is not everything at the younger ages. I see too many parents living vicariously through their kids when it comes to sports. I am as competitive as they come but realize that kids will be kids and coaches should allow them to be that way.


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## mjfortner (Feb 27, 2010)

Bitteroot said:


> either read everything I stated on the subject... or take a reading class and get back with me.... how many ways do I have to say it?



dont ask a question if you dont want to know the answer. I was just giving my opinion. sorry that you didnt like it.


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## DeWalt (Feb 27, 2010)

Bitteroot said:


> I'm coaching soccer again this year for my little girls team.  We got a really good draft with about 60% above average talent.  We've been practicing several nights a week and I and another parent (experienced hispanic soccer player/coach) thinks we have an above average shot at winning the leauge.  Then last night....my 2 best players/brothers get the schedule and I hear..."we can't play on Saturday since we go to church"!  Now guys I understand commitment to Church and Religion and have not problem with it at all.....but I wouldn't sign my kids up for something that they were'nt going to be able to fulfill thier obligation in.  I mean come on.... it's not like they didn't know that 50% of the games were on Saturday.  So for me I like to win and win BIG!  So their parents ask if they can stay on the team... I say yes...but their playing time will be limited so the kids that are here all the time can play even if they aren't as good.   Am I being unreasonable in this?  The parents are ticked off at me.... but it's just the way it is!  You show up and commit the same as the rest of the kids...or you don't play!





Bitteroot said:


> Not punishing them for going to church...not punishing them at all.... just not letting them play as much because of lack of participation in regular scheduled games.  If it was "underwater basket weaving" another sport, full contact tiddly winks, then the situation would be the same. Give equal time.. get equal reward... so it sounds like you'd rather win at all costs even if the others are contributing more, and more often.  Yea, get in line with a couple of the others for trophys for everyone!.  And at this level.. it is competitve... take a trip over to the state tourney sometime and you'll see how competitve it really is.  We took 2nd in state last year with a similar team.  We probably should not have gotten that far... but we were in a zone!  If you think it doesn't matter to the kids if they win or lose....ask them!  They play thier hearts out everytime they walk on the field. Winning isn't everything... but giving it everything you have is!
> 
> By the way we just finished our first game a little while ago... we tied without the two boys in question.  I am almost cetain that my kids would have won with them because they fill the two lacking positions at center and right forward.  So who stands to suffer the most... the kids.. or the team? Fullfill your commitment in life and chose what it will be.. stand by it... but don't feel bad when the world doesn't hand you a freebie cause you chose a differnet path!





Sorry BR, my mistake. I was thinking that you REALLY wanted to know if you were being a jerk, when all along what you wanted was us to tell you we agreed with the decision you made.

It has since been made clear to me by the fact that you argued or disagreed with those who told you that you were wrong.

On one hand you say that you are not punishing those 2 boys, then you say that they are getting a raw deal. 
The league, the coaches (you), and the parents need to have better communications about practice and game dates and times prior to the draft.
You might have communicated your personal rules about games and practice and playing times to these children and their parents prior to choosing them for your team.
Perhaps these boys should have been given the opportunity to play on another team or with another coach who is not so hard-nosed as to punish them for something they had no say in.
I can see your argument if these boys were lazy, didn't try or had bad attitudes but I haven't seen that as the problem in your prior posts.
As it is now the kids are going to resent you or the parents or the church.
I think we need to not lose sight of what this is all about. Hopefully it is making this a positive and fun learning experience for the kids involved. Not some bragging point on a sports forum for a coaches personal toughness, or win loss record.

All that being said, I have no dog in this fight and the decision is yours to make since you are the one who has stepped up to the plate to donate your time.


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## Bitteroot (Feb 27, 2010)

mjfortner said:


> dont ask a question if you dont want to know the answer. I was just giving my opinion. sorry that you didnt like it.



As Rush would say... for those of you in Rio Linda.. Winning isn't everything.... I'm sorry you couldn't understand that from my posts that you obviously DIDN'T read. Yes everyone like to win.... but teaching the kids teamwork and responsibility is more important.  Again... it's no skin off me what you think anyway... but I appreciate your response none the less. And yes I did strugle with it because of the Religous aspect of it... but it has to be consistent no matter what the reason is...if it was a Muslim holiday... I doubt anyone here would have a problem with it. But it's and exceptable form of organized religion... so I get the jerk award for it.  And in case you missed it... my girl can play at a much higher level...but does not due to commitments at church which does come first... so maybe they should change all the tournament schedules so she can play when she wants......!   NO ...it is what it is.. and she will have to accept it.. too bad others can't!


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## K80 (Feb 27, 2010)

mjfortner said:


> Yes you are being a jerk. They are children and winning shouldnt be te most important thing to them.



Where does he say that winning is the most important thing?


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## Bitteroot (Feb 27, 2010)

DeWalt said:


> Sorry BR, my mistake. I was thinking that you REALLY wanted to know if you were being a jerk, when all along what you wanted was us to tell you we agreed with the decision you made.  No I didn't want anyones vote of approval..it was kind of a tounge in cheek can 't believe it kinda thread... but I can see many arguments on the other side as well... just none that I agree with.
> It has since been made clear to me by the fact that you argued or disagreed with those who told you that you were wrong.  No just the ones that can't read the fact that I stated mutiple times that WINNING ISN'T EVERYTHING!
> 
> On one hand you say that you are not punishing those 2 boys, then you say that they are getting a raw deal.
> ...


Thank you and I wish more people were more appreciative of the time volunteer coaches put in.. even if  they don't agree with their methods!


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## DeWalt (Feb 27, 2010)

Thanks for taking the time for thoughtful answers to my points and good luck with the team and the season.


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## Bitteroot (Feb 27, 2010)

This is a no win scenario... as I knew it would be... many can see where I am trying to give the best to the kids that are more commited to the the team effort.. and some believe I am punishing the two boys by not letting them play as if they were always there, when it was their parents that put them.. and me in that situation. I've stated that I don't put my children in those type situations for the very reason that these kids can't be there as much as the others.  I know it might not even be a popular opinion but the bottom line is this.. in reality... someone is gonna suffer... that's life. I choose not to allow it to be the ones that are the strongest participants so they will be the ones that recieve the most play even when they are not as strong a player.  I will not post anymore on the subject since it is so strongly divided.  In the end.. I hope that these kids can learn something positive in play and life... but in this particular situation... no one really gets everything they want..and that in itself is a life lesson.


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## Bitteroot (Feb 27, 2010)

DeWalt said:


> Thanks for taking the time for thoughtful answers to my points and good luck with the team and the season.



OK one more post.... Your Welcome and thank you for the well wishes!


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## paddlin samurai (Feb 27, 2010)

Awhile back i coached rec basketball and alot of the teams would not take more than 10 players so there were some kids without a team.  I felt bad about it and took the five kids who were without a team giving me 15 kids.  Each kid had to play one full quarter and part of another so it was hard making everyone happy especially the PARENTS.  Well we made the championship game and i finished the game with the five kids who were teamless- took my son out who was one of the better players on the team.  We ended up losing and alot of parents were angry ( so was my son), but i did the right thing because these five wanted to play so badly they never missed a practice (unlike most of the other kids)  and soaked up everything i taught them.  All five ended up playing for their high school basketball teams and all still call me "coach"-  my son told me later that the remaining ten players never cheered so loudly before in their life during the final quarter and were upset that i didnt coach the following year.  You go with what u believe in and stick to your guns!


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## Gaswamp (Feb 27, 2010)

wha ages are these kids?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Feb 27, 2010)

Bitteroot said:


> I'm coaching soccer again this year for my little girls team. We got a really good draft with about 60% above average talent. We've been practicing several nights a week and I and another parent (experienced hispanic soccer player/coach) thinks we have an above average shot at winning the leauge. Then last night....my 2 best players/brothers get the schedule and I hear..."we can't play on Saturday since we go to church"! Now guys I understand commitment to Church and Religion and have not problem with it at all.....but I wouldn't sign my kids up for something that they were'nt going to be able to fulfill thier obligation in. I mean come on.... it's not like they didn't know that 50% of the games were on Saturday. So for me I like to win and win BIG! So their parents ask if they can stay on the team... I say yes...but their playing time will be limited so the kids that are here all the time can play even if they aren't as good. Am I being unreasonable in this? The parents are ticked off at me.... but it's just the way it is! You show up and commit the same as the rest of the kids...or you don't play!


 
Sounds fair to me.


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## greene_dawg (Feb 27, 2010)

Had our first practice today. I told everyone to be there at 12:45... Had one show up just past 1 and another at 1:15... I didn't ask if they were coming from church, had broken homes, or anything else. What I did know is that I had 9 girls there on time running laps, warmed up, and fielding ground balls by the time the others showed up. Guess what 9 will more than likely be rewarded with the 9 starting positions??? Some of y'all need to stop looking at it as punishment for the ones that aren't able to show up and need to start looking at it from the perspective of the kids/parents of the kids that put the time in. How would it have looked if I had taken the kid that showed up 30 minutes late and placed her at shortstop and said "well, her parents are divorced"???


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## Miguel Cervantes (Feb 27, 2010)

greene_dawg said:


> Had our first practice today. I told everyone to be there at 12:45... Had one show up just past 1 and another at 1:15... I didn't ask if they were coming from church, had broken homes, or anything else. What I did know is that I had 9 girls there on time running laps, warmed up, and fielding ground balls by the time the others showed up. Guess what 9 will more than likely be rewarded with the 9 starting positions??? Some of y'all need to stop looking at it as punishment for the ones that aren't able to show up and need to start looking at it from the perspective of the kids/parents of the kids that put the time in. How would it have looked if I had taken the kid that showed up 30 minutes late and placed her at shortstop and said "well, her parents are divorced"???


 
Absolutely correct. When a parent raises a child part of their job is teaching them responsibility, and honoring commitments. The actions of these few parents is what is wrong with today's generations.


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## D Moody (Feb 27, 2010)

To Bitteroot:  You are 100% correct. Kids (as well as unfortunately too many adults) need to learn commitment will almost always require some degree of sacrifice. Such is life.


To paddlin samurai,
Outstanding......You should be proud.


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## centerc (Feb 28, 2010)

When did they start keeping score at soccer??


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## Hunt Em Up (Feb 28, 2010)

*sorry*



bullgator said:


> Those, like you, that volunteer their time to coach youth sports are as much mentors as coaches. I truly believe that aside from my parents, I learned as many life lessons from coaches as teachers. Take the league championship out of the equation and decide what lesson/message you feel the best about conveying and stick to it.....



Amen...  I mean how competitive is this league if its co-ed soccer. Be a mentor and not a jerk about it. If this was H.S then sure bench your players that don't show up for practice. 
This is youth co-ed soccer and please don't tell me winning the league trophy is going to boost your resume. Maybe you should reconsider being a coach. 
I've coached many years in H.S and youth sports and its completely a different world. Youth sports is about teach character and having a good time. Sorry but it just ticks me off when I see coaches out there that are basically living their old dreams of winning championships. I played baseball and football and soccer since I was 5 years old. I honestly can only remember a few coaches and if I saw them today I'd be sure to tell them the life lessons they taught me and what fun we had and not what championships we won.


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## Hunt Em Up (Feb 28, 2010)

Woodsman69 said:


> Church is on Sunday so either show up for Saturday practice or ride the bench!



Sorry Woodsman69 but not all church is on Sunday. There are other religions out there that go on Saturday and other days of the week.


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## Bottle Hunter (Mar 1, 2010)

Soccer and winning is way more important than God and instructing our children. Everybody knows that

Christian coaches would be the answer here.


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## rospaw (Mar 1, 2010)

Bitteroot said:


> yea liberals call it that when they can't compete!  I call what you mention a "successfull" season! You must be one of the ones that want every kid to get a trophy and don't keep score.... yea that's a real life lesson... how bout free (to you) health care and equal pay for everyjob no matter what your contribution to the company is as well!



Dam son........ you got alot from my statement! I guess your a betting man and would wish to bet $ on your statement about me? Are we going to read about you in the paper for getting your butt kicked by a parent? You must have been one of those that couldn't ever make the team growing up and now these little kids are you and you will show the world! ha Reading all your post on this topic it seems u have problems! I guess i could be judging you on 400 or 500 words and be wrong ....... but heck you did it to me on 15 words. And yes every kid should get a trophy of some type at the end of the season. That i do agree on!


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## MudDucker (Mar 1, 2010)

I volunteer with a youth organization that has youth sports as a part of its program.

If you were here, I am afraid I would ask to have you removed from your coaching position.  

Why?  Because you are punishing a kid for something beyond their control and have admitted that a least a part of the reason is your ego.  

This is not the kid's job or a profession, this is play.  As long as the kids are as committed as they can be within the confines they have to deal with, they deserve to play as much as the next kid.

Not saying that there is not a level at which this changes, but this isn't that level.


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## aaronward9 (Mar 1, 2010)

when I was growing up, it was no practice, no play. simple as that. If I didn't want to go to practice for whatever reason, my dad was fine with it, but he was coach and I didn't play. If I was sick, I could go to practice, watch, and still play in games. My dads rule was come to practice, you play.  You don't come to practice, you don't play. Like others said, it teaches commitment. There were other teams in our league that had no practice/play rules and they had problems with kids coming to games only and playing the whole game and not practicing once. It got ugly. 

I think Greg's question is about practice and playing time more than it is the church situation. I think some are reading too much into this..

Tough call Greg.. Good luck!


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## bonaireboy (Mar 1, 2010)

I have served on a soccer board for 5 years here in middle ga. I can assure you that you are breaking GA Soccer Association rules by making a kid sit out. You are required to play a child the exact amount of time if they show up for the game or you will be suspended and should be. It is hard when parent do not get their chldren to practice and games, but you as a coach cannot dictate the playing time based on that. I would contact your scheduler and see if you can have  games moved from Saturday to Friday night or Sunday. If the reason for them missing games is based on religion, your organization and othere coaches will understand. Have you asked your board for special consideration in scheduling? If you on your own have deemed to alter the governed rules of play for a child, then you are not only a jerk but not teaching the kids properly and shouldnt be a coach anyway. But I do understand your position and it is hard to deal with parents. I do firmly believe that when you sigh your child up to partcipate in anything, you sign yourself up and it is the parents duty to get their child to the games and practices.


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## Bitteroot (Mar 1, 2010)

this is drawing as much attention as DDD's weather thread...! 

And although I wasn't going to post anymore since I've made my decision and my horse is bleeding... No..I'm not breaking the rules as per the REC director who fully backs me on this.  The kids are playing the required amount of time for all participants and if I wanted to simply "boost my resume" as if that is possible in rec league soccer.. they would play more and we might win all the games... as it is.. we'll just have as much fun as possible and play within the rules.  Nice try anyway.....


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## jdgator (Mar 1, 2010)

All I know is Tim Tebow's parents found time for him to practice every day of the week and I don't think his hurt his Christian upbringing one bit.  

Some of these so-called religious meetings are social events and not worship. When our associate pastor coached the church softball team, the church excuse no longer worked. You don't need to go to the youth p-nut boil, you need to practice, etc.

At that age its the parents need a wake-up call that they can't breeze through life without following through on commitments.  Folks are too soft nowdays. You are going to step on toes, but you are teaching everyone a lesson about dedication.


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## Havana Dude (Mar 1, 2010)

Most people on here agree in principle with your position.

It is right at impossible to get 100%participation, given 10-12 families and all their other obligations, especially when they have no say so in scheduling.

I can't believe someone would call you a jerk about this, especially not knowing ALL the facts.

One poster was correct about the timing of some of these lessons. Youth games should be just that, games, not chock full of life lessons. A time to learn the game, and have fun.

And most importantly, these children do what their parents tell them to do. I agree, that a parent should consider the fact that participation is important, and take that into consideration. However, when Little Johny gets drafted to the team, and is excited, then Mom /Dad learn of the scheduling, what is a parent to do? Do you tell your child he is off the team because he has other obligations? What good does that do. At this level, there should be some flexibility. There has to be some middle ground here. Maybe those who are most consistant get to start, then the others play later. 

I will give you a thumbs up however, IF you stick to your guns. When I was kid, playing little league BB, our coach called a practice on a Sunday afternoon. He said, everyone who showed up would start. 9 Showed up, me included, and guess what, I started on the bench. My Mom lit into him like a swarm of killer bees, almost to the point of embarrassment. Same type thing happened to my son, when he played, coach lied to him about getting an opportunity to pitch. He practiced with me, got pretty good, asked the coach to pitch twice, and both times he lied to him. He has not played since. He said he had enough of being lied to. Whatever you do, Never, Never Never, lie to the kids. If this is your rule then live and die by it.

I am on board with you as far as teaching the kids responsibilty, respect etc. I just don't agree that it should be run like Military school. Zero tolerance for absences has no place in youth games IMHO.


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## critterbait (Mar 1, 2010)

greene_dawg said:


> Kudos to you root for stepping up and taking on a team. Too many parents have no clue how much time and effort it takes to run a team and way too often they forget that all of the adults out there (minus the umps getting $50/day) are volunteers. The parents that complain the loudest are the ones who never ever offer to help out. We had 66 girls sign up for 12U girls fastpitch. Out of 132 parents, only 5 of them signed up to manage until 1 stepped up to the plate to take on the 6th team on the day of tryouts. Unfortunately it's easy to coach from the bleachers. Do what you think is right and make sure the parents and kids both understand why you're doing it and press on. You'll never please them all, as much as you try.



x2...


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## Jranger (Mar 1, 2010)

Nothing wrong with your position Root. I would take the same approach!


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## ReDawg333 (Mar 1, 2010)

Trade'em.


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## Nicodemus (Mar 1, 2010)

Greg, you might be a lot of things, but bein` a jerk ain`t one of em. You strike me as a purty fair man.


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## HighCotton (Mar 1, 2010)

I had this happen a few times when I coached Little League baseball.  Just play your best players when they are there.  Make the best of it.  Don't punish the kids just because they have to go to church.  But I agree, as it ends up, it's a little unfair to you and the team because maybe the parents signed up the kids to play knowing they would miss Saturday games.


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## ReDawg333 (Mar 1, 2010)

You might actually be helping the kids and not even know it.  God said we are supposed to witness to those that don't believe in him.  I don't know any Christian churches that congregate on Saturday's so maybe you plant the seed of Jesus in the kids.  It's just a thought.


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## Bitteroot (Mar 1, 2010)

ReDawg333 said:


> You might actually be helping the kids and not even know it.  God said we are supposed to witness to those that don't believe in him.  I don't know any Christian churches that congregate on Saturday's so maybe you plant the seed of Jesus in the kids.  It's just a thought.



dude.. take it somewhere else... if this was about Church..I would have posted it in the Spiritual Forum!  I would have been drawn and quartered in there by some...and cannonized by others!


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## jmar28 (Mar 1, 2010)

Yes my friend you are a jerk.........coaching soccer


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## Bitteroot (Mar 1, 2010)

jmar28 said:


> Yes my friend you are a jerk.........coaching soccer



yea, the things one will do for their kids!


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## jmar28 (Mar 1, 2010)

Bitteroot said:


> yea, the things one will do for their kids!




You know who else coaches their little girls soccer team to??????? Your best buddy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			










I really don't know if he does or did, just thought it was funny seeing how much you are in love with him


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## blues brother (Mar 1, 2010)

Hey Bitterroot!
You are the one that signed up to be a coach. My hat is off to for that.
You are the coach and as long as you follow the rules of the league,
you are in the right. You are not being a jerk.
If the brothers parents are upset that is their right. And it is ok for them to be upset(maybe next year they will volunteer to coach a team and they can run their team the way they want.
Again...My hat is off to you!
BTW, I coach a 4-H Shotgun team, and if you are on the same payscale as I am and we both got a 100% raise, I don't think our taxable income would change a bit!


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## Oldstick (Mar 1, 2010)

I agree with Bitterroot's position in theory on paper.  However in this case you might have to factor in the circumstances.

Are all the players who attend church on Sundays faced with a similar dilema?   I am guessing they don't have to make this kind of choice.

And yes, I know there are plenty who would jump in and say there is only one valid faith that customarily meets on Sundays.  But I guess these kids aren't old enough yet to have much say in that matter.  

Now as to whether the parents should have signed them up in a league that is probably scheduled around Sunday worship, that is questionable.  If they haven't already, maybe the league needs a disclaimer on sign up day, stating how the schedules will work and that the coaches are free to decide playing time based on attendance, etc.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 1, 2010)

Bitterroot, this is a tough, grey area of coaching rec sports.

I know. I head coach baseball, basketball, and football for my son's age group up here and you run into so many things. I agree with you if the child did not make effort to make practice. Sometimes game day is just a judgement call.

I had a little boy with cancer play for me last year. (He actually is playing for me again this year and his cancer has gone into remission) He missed a lot of time. How could I hold that against him?

Luckily, in baseball, Dizzy Dean has play requirements and league minimums. However, I get the AllStar team. AND TO ME, THIS IS WHERE THE WINNING IS IMPORTANT stuff comes into play. Where the competition is notched up a bit. But for basic league stuff, you have to be flexible and just make judgement calls. In football this year, one of my better players had patrents going thru a divorce. He was always late for practice and missed a few because mom lived elsewhere and dad decided he didn't want to help her out. How could I punish him? He didn't choose the outcome of his parent's decisions. So, I played him and looked over the ADULTS indescretions. Our football league is a above just park and rec. We travel to other counties and play and it's hyper competetive. So I guess in that instance I went with what made the team stronger. 

It just all depends man and it's tough. I will tell you a secret to our coaching that has made us successful over the last few years. The parents are considered as much as the kid in the draft. Like above, situations do happen but for the most part the following applies:

Never draft a kid who is ready, or at least told by his parents that he or she is ready for the pro's that year. Bad for team chemistry. Bad for parent/coach relationships.

Never draft a kid with excessively loud parents no matter how good they are. self explanatory here.

Always draft kids that you know from experience get along with others and can welcome new kids in like they've been here forever.

Try to draft kids with similar abilities. Not one great one and ten bad ones. Oftentimes, this never works.

AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS YOU NEED WHAT WE CALL BLEACHER MOMS! At least one. You know, with the sumthin, sumthin. We pick one every year. Not for us. You'd be amazed how easily you can calm a group of boys down on the mound by saying, Have you seen so and so's mom today? Everyone of them will turn and look and for a brief moment will totally forget the mistakes that brought me out there.  This year during football, in the huddle after we fumbled (but recovered) I was mad and called a timeout. Dawson's field has a track around it and on this particular Saturday, there was a group of two or three very nicelooking ladies walking around the field. We never discussed the previous play but we all just discussed what we saw. I got it on dvd. Priceless. Eleven boys and one coach being totally obvious male human beings, in front of everyone.

My point is, we stress winning as much as anyone. We remember the little experiences more than anything. Find the happy medium grasshopper and it will be more enjoyable to you and them. And you will find you will be a better team. In all three sports last year, we went 36-3 and I remember the goofy things and the dumb things 8 year old boys say more than kicking most everyone's behind.


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## lab (Mar 1, 2010)

Play the ones that practice the most, they are the ones putting the most time in so they should start and play the most.


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## Twenty five ought six (Mar 1, 2010)

ReDawg333 said:


> You might actually be helping the kids and not even know it.  God said we are supposed to witness to those that don't believe in him.  I don't know any Christian churches that congregate on Saturday's so maybe you plant the seed of Jesus in the kids.  It's just a thought.




You might want to read up on The Seventh Day Adventists.


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## nc/ga hunter (Mar 1, 2010)

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Bitterroot, this is a tough, grey area of coaching rec sports.
> 
> I know. I head coach baseball, basketball, and football for my son's age group up here and you run into so many things. I agree with you if the child did not make effort to make practice. Sometimes game day is just a judgement call.
> 
> ...



I coach both baseball and football. I agree with you totally. On our travel baseball team we look at the parents more then the player abilities. There's a fine line in winning and being competeive. IMHO, all good coaches have a competeive spirit and hate to lose, but teach young players lessons from losing as well as winning.


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## CollinsCraft77 (Mar 1, 2010)

It is possible to do both. We do it everyday


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## Bitteroot (Mar 1, 2010)

jmar28 said:


> You know who else coaches their little girls soccer team to??????? Your best buddy
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If I remember correctly...your the one that had the man crush on obamer!  Haven't you got a rolling road block to gripe about or sumpin?   I heard they were moving another piece of the world trade center and everyone knows you'll be protesting that!


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## Miguel Cervantes (Mar 1, 2010)

Bitterbro' you coaching a rec team or a select team?


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## Bitteroot (Mar 1, 2010)

Sparky1 said:


> Bitterbro' you coaching a rec team or a select team?




Rec only.. I will let my girl move into a select team this fall if the oportunity comes up again.  I have not been coaching for a while cause I wanted her to get the feel of another coach and she has been for the last two seasons.  I didn't want to coach again..but they gave the old bring em to the draft so we can draft the parents too switcharoo on me!   Our select coach from last year wants her to play keeper but she still needs a little work from one of the REAL coaches that have played and coached the goalie position before.  She is doing well and during the State finals last fall she blocked 27 attempts on goal and allowed 3...most she caught and punted some were just deflections, but none the less I think she has a good future in soccer and softball as well.. just not sure what she likes better.  I will support what ever she wants to do..or if she doesn't want to do any of them. But she seems to love soccer the most. It was funny when I walked into the draft room and all the other coaches looked around and I heard one say "crap...ya'll take Audrey off your list... he'll keep her!"  yea well... what's a dad to do!  I have to admit...that does make a dad proud that they think so highly of my lil girl!


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## jmar28 (Mar 2, 2010)

Bitteroot said:


> If I remember correctly...your the one that had the man crush on obamer!  Haven't you got a rolling road block to gripe about or sumpin?   I heard they were moving another piece of the world trade center and everyone knows you'll be protesting that!


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## Wild Turkey (Mar 2, 2010)

This is what we call an ugly no win topic.


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## Hunt Em Up (Mar 2, 2010)

Whats the age group?


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## fishinbub (Mar 20, 2010)

First, I want to say this. You're the coach, if you're decision (no matter which way you go on this) doesn't break any rules it's the right decision. What ever you decide, stick with it and enforce it ACROSS THE BOARD. If you don't break any rules, and you're consistent across the board, then that's as close as you'll get to pleasing everyone. 

If it were me this is what I'd do.

I'd pull them and their parents aside and explain that since it's a religious thing I'd be willing to let them EARN back that playing time. If they make it to practices, other games, and REALLY, REALLY, blow me away with their hard work then they can play. And then I would explain it to the other parents/kids and make sure they know that since it's a religious thing then they can EARN playing time back.


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## chiefsquirrel83 (Mar 20, 2010)

I do not think you are a jerk at all. I played rec league and travel league baseball from the time I was 4 yrs. old till I was 19....if I missed practice I missed the next game or used as a sub. If I missed a game I had to hit practice harder. Yeah, it's about the children and giving them a shot but if you know your child isn't going to make 50% of the games then better find another hobby or activity. Get the children involved church league sports.


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## chiefsquirrel83 (Mar 20, 2010)

also....if you want your children to play sports throughout school....they do not get to make the schedule of practice or games...in middle and high school you were off the team if you did not comply unless family/personal emergency or sickness or injury


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## Gaswamp (Mar 20, 2010)

bonaireboy said:


> I have served on a soccer board for 5 years here in middle ga. I can assure you that you are breaking GA Soccer Association rules by making a kid sit out. You are required to play a child the exact amount of time if they show up for the game or you will be suspended and should be. It is hard when parent do not get their chldren to practice and games, but you as a coach cannot dictate the playing time based on that. I would contact your scheduler and see if you can have  games moved from Saturday to Friday night or Sunday. If the reason for them missing games is based on religion, your organization and othere coaches will understand. Have you asked your board for special consideration in scheduling? If you on your own have deemed to alter the governed rules of play for a child, then you are not only a jerk but not teaching the kids properly and shouldnt be a coach anyway. But I do understand your position and it is hard to deal with parents. I do firmly believe that when you sigh your child up to partcipate in anything, you sign yourself up and it is the parents duty to get their child to the games and practices.



What board do you serve On?


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## chiefsquirrel83 (Mar 21, 2010)

bonaireboy said:


> I have served on a soccer board for 5 years here in middle ga. I can assure you that you are breaking GA Soccer Association rules by making a kid sit out. You are required to play a child the exact amount of time if they show up for the game or you will be suspended and should be. It is hard when parent do not get their chldren to practice and games, but you as a coach cannot dictate the playing time based on that. I would contact your scheduler and see if you can have  games moved from Saturday to Friday night or Sunday. If the reason for them missing games is based on religion, your organization and othere coaches will understand. Have you asked your board for special consideration in scheduling? If you on your own have deemed to alter the governed rules of play for a child, then you are not only a jerk but not teaching the kids properly and shouldnt be a coach anyway. But I do understand your position and it is hard to deal with parents. I do firmly believe that when you sigh your child up to partcipate in anything, you sign yourself up and it is the parents duty to get their child to the games and practices.



I played Lightning and Glory Soccer in Peachtree City in the fall and winter when I wasn't play baseball. It's the Georgia State Soccer Association.If you read the KINS IMPLEMENTATION MANUAL FOR GEORGIA SOCCER – YOUTH CLUBS there is no such rule.The kid is required to have field time if he puts forth the effort and pracitice! If you can't make the games then don't play. The coach is not responsible for calling which ever association he is playing for to change the schedule


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