# Seek and you will find



## HawgJawl

Scripture states that EVERYONE who seeks shall find. 

Romans 10:10-13
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.  For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”  For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.  For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Luke 11:9-13
And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.  For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.  What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?  If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

For the past five months, I have been earnestly seeking God’s presence in my life.  I have removed as much sin from my life and eliminated as many obstacles that might hinder a relationship with God, as I can on my own.  With God’s help, I could do more.

I believe that God is real and that He communicates with His people.  I believe that God knows how to communicate with me and make His presence known in my life if He wishes to do so.  

I believe that God is completely ignoring my plea for His help.  I have not felt God’s presence or influence in my life in any way over the past five months.  How am I to interpret the above scriptures?


----------



## gordon 2

HawgJawl said:


> Scripture states that EVERYONE who seeks shall find.
> 
> Romans 10:10-13
> For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.  For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”  For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.  For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
> 
> Luke 11:9-13
> And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.  For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.  What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?  If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
> 
> For the past five months, I have been earnestly seeking God’s presence in my life.  I have removed as much sin from my life and eliminated as many obstacles that might hinder a relationship with God, as I can on my own.  With God’s help, I could do more.
> 
> I believe that God is real and that He communicates with His people.  I believe that God knows how to communicate with me and make His presence known in my life if He wishes to do so.
> 
> I believe that God is completely ignoring my plea for His help.  I have not felt God’s presence or influence in my life in any way over the past five months.  How am I to interpret the above scriptures?



Learn how to pray. Start at the white belt, start with a child's prayer and train hard and keep training.


----------



## bullethead

gordon 2 said:


> Learn how to pray. Start at the white belt, start with a child's prayer and train hard and keep training.



Is that to say he is not praying correctly?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Does he have to wait for God to call? It appears God will call all who seek. Have you repented for the remission of your sins?


----------



## gordon 2

bullethead said:


> Is that to say he is not praying correctly?



No.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

HawgJawl said:


> Scripture states that EVERYONE who seeks shall find.
> 
> Romans 10:10-13
> For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.  For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”  For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.  For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
> 
> Luke 11:9-13
> And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.  For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.  What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?  If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
> 
> For the past five months, I have been earnestly seeking God’s presence in my life.  I have removed as much sin from my life and eliminated as many obstacles that might hinder a relationship with God, as I can on my own.  With God’s help, I could do more.
> 
> I believe that God is real and that He communicates with His people.  I believe that God knows how to communicate with me and make His presence known in my life if He wishes to do so.
> 
> I believe that God is completely ignoring my plea for His help.  I have not felt God’s presence or influence in my life in any way over the past five months.  How am I to interpret the above scriptures?


 Hey friend, It might be asking to much for God to communicate with you. Even the most Godly you know of do not communicate with God, contrary to what they may say. It would be better explained as feeling his presence, not communicating. Being lead by by the moving of your spirit, rather than being told what to do. First thing that I would say is that you must go through this time, to realize it don't work, to gain experiential knowledge. All through the bible we see people working to please God, trying to earn his favor so that he might come to dwell with them. It does not work. What we are attempting to do is build a temple, one stone [work, good deed] at a time until we please God with what we have accomplished. Surely God will reveal himself now. But Stephen spoke of this, he said God does not live in houses made by man. Jesus spoke of it when he said referring to his body in death, "tear down this house and be raised a new not made by human hands". When we give up trying, and rest from our work, [come to me all you who are weary] we tear down this temple made by man [in baptism] and we rest knowing full well that the awesome creator of this universe is much more capable of making us into a spiritual house. As Paul said, he worked harder, etc, etc, etc, but he gave up, considered it all rubble. Rubble is the greek word used, typical word used in demolition. Jesus spoke of it when he said "not one stone will be left on another". We have to realize that God made a way, accepting us as we are. Until we have given up, realized that we are incapable of creating an enviroment that God will accept, we will not experience him. If that were so, Christ died for nothing. The Gospel [good news] is that we no longer have to measure up. Interesting is John the baptist. Multitudes flocked to him in the dessert. Why... because they heard he was better than Joel olsten? No, simply because they lived with the religious white washed. They contimplated that "I can not live up to that standard" They felt guilty for their sins.... but they had heard of this man named John who baptized people for the forgiveness of their sins. And they flocked to him. It was a "type" of goodnews, a picture of the good news found in christ. The beauty is that we can just "be". I often think of this analogy. A skydiver jumps from a plane, yet he is flailing his arms as a desperate attempt to fly, not entrusting the parachutte.   Baptism is not an entry ritual. It is an acknowledgement that we must demo all our work. We have nothing, have accomplished nothing, that deems us worty of God. The OT promise was that we would live in house we did not build and reap friut we did not plant. It is given. Long winded, I know, but maybe you may understand what brought me peace, inspite of my bad explaining.


----------



## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey friend, It might be asking to much for God to communicate with you. Even the most Godly you know of do not communicate with God, contrary to what they may say. It would be better explained as feeling his presence, not communicating. Being lead by by the moving of your spirit, rather than being told what to do. First thing that I would say is that you must go through this time, to realize it don't work, to gain experiential knowledge. All through the bible we see people working to please God, trying to earn his favor so that he might come to dwell with them. It does not work. What we are attempting to do is build a temple, one stone [work, good deed] at a time until we please God with what we have accomplished. Surely God will reveal himself now. But Stephen spoke of this, he said God does not live in houses made by man. Jesus spoke of it when he said referring to his body in death, "tear down this house and be raised a new not made by human hands". When we give up trying, and rest from our work, [come to me all you who are weary] we tear down this temple made by man [in baptism] and we rest knowing full well that the awesome creator of this universe is much more capable of making us into a spiritual house. As Paul said, he worked harder, etc, etc, etc, but he gave up, considered it all rubble. Rubble is the greek word used, typical word used in demolition. Jesus spoke of it when he said "not one stone will be left on another". We have to realize that God made a way, accepting us as we are. Until we have given up, realized that we are incapable of creating an enviroment that God will accept, we will not experience him. If that were so, Christ died for nothing. The Gospel [good news] is that we no longer have to measure up. Interesting is John the baptist. Multitudes flocked to him in the dessert. Why... because they heard he was better than Joel olsten? No, simply because they lived with the religious white washed. They contimplated that "I can not live up to that standard" They felt guilty for their sins.... but they had heard of this man named John who baptized people for the forgiveness of their sins. And they flocked to him. It was a "type" of goodnews, a picture of the good news found in christ. The beauty is that we can just "be". I often think of this analogy. A skydiver jumps from a plane, yet he is flailing his arms as a desperate attempt to fly, not entrusting the parachutte.   Baptism is not an entry ritual. It is an acknowledgement that we must demo all our work. We have nothing, have accomplished nothing, that deems us worty of God. The OT promise was that we would live in house we did not build and reap friut we did not plant. It is given. Long winded, I know, but maybe you may understand what brought me peace, inspite of my bad explaining.



You should be a preacher. You just described Christianity in one post. I've often tried to build this house you've described. Even if I succeeded in my mind it would never be good enough. I have finally and truly repented. Hopefully I will no longer be weary and can finally rest. 
I would agree that people do look too hard for the simple truth of salvation. Thanks for the reassuring  lesson of why I needed Jesus.


----------



## gordon 2

Prayer can be your sycamore tree.

Zaccheus:

19 He (A)entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 And there was a man called by the name of Zaccheus; he was a chief tax collector and he was rich. 3 Zaccheus was trying to see who Jesus was, and was unable because of the crowd, for he was small in stature. 4 So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a [a](B)sycamore tree in order to see Him, for He was about to pass through that way. 5 When Jesus came to the place, He looked up and said to him, “Zaccheus, hurry and come down, for today I must stay at your house.” 6 And he hurried and came down and received Him *gladly. 7 When they saw it, they all began to grumble, saying, “He has gone [c]to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.” 8 Zaccheus stopped and said to (C)the Lord, “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I [d]will give to the poor, and if I have (D)defrauded anyone of anything, I [e]will give back (E)four times as much.” 9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is (F)a son of Abraham. 10 For (G)the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”*


----------



## hobbs27

If a person has never known the Lord as savior there is only one plead that will be heard by God, and that is the plea for salvation. Otherwise, you are as a child without a father, and some day you will hear, depart from me I never knew you.

 If you are not of His flock, you will not hear His voice...My suggestion, is that you check up, plea with a broken heart and contrite spirit.

That's all I got to say about that.


----------



## HawgJawl

I was raised in a small Southern Baptist Church. At the age of 13, I responded to the alter call, walked down the aisle, got down on my knees, prayed, cried, and asked Jesus to save me, come into my life, and be my Lord and Savior. I was baptised in a muddy creek and joined the church.

I grew in my spiritual life for many years and never seemed to tire of praying and studying scripture.

Years later, I fell away from the church and gradually lost my faith.

For the past five months, I've been trying to get back to that place where I used to be spiritually.  Two months ago, I even visited the church of my youth and repeated walking down the aisle and getting down on my knees, repenting of my sins, and asking Jesus to take control of my life as my Lord and Savior.

If this is not enough, then I have two questions;

(1)  What is the correct interpretation of the two scriptures I posted in the OP?

(2)  How many times have you personally observed a pastor who has just prayed with a person responding to an alter call who tells the person in front of the whole church that their plea for salvation is probably not enough?


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> I was raised in a small Southern Baptist Church. At the age of 13, I responded to the alter call, walked down the aisle, got down on my knees, prayed, cried, and asked Jesus to save me, come into my life, and be my Lord and Savior. I was baptised in a muddy creek and joined the church.
> 
> I grew in my spiritual life for many years and never seemed to tire of praying and studying scripture.
> 
> Years later, I fell away from the church and gradually lost my faith.
> 
> For the past five months, I've been trying to get back to that place where I used to be spiritually.  Two months ago, I even visited the church of my youth and repeated walking down the aisle and getting down on my knees, repenting of my sins, and asking Jesus to take control of my life as my Lord and Savior.
> 
> If this is not enough, then I have two questions;
> 
> (1)  What is the correct interpretation of the two scriptures I posted in the OP?
> 
> (2)  How many times have you personally observed a pastor who has just prayed with a person responding to an alter call who tells the person in front of the whole church that their plea for salvation is probably not enough?



Is this a Lordship Salvation Church? I believe the plea for salvation is the repentance needed.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> If a person has never known the Lord as savior there is only one plead that will be heard by God, and that is the plea for salvation. Otherwise, you are as a child without a father, and some day you will hear, depart from me I never knew you.
> 
> If you are not of His flock, you will not hear His voice...My suggestion, is that you check up, plea with a broken heart and contrite spirit.
> 
> That's all I got to say about that.



Some people don't view themselves as broken, thank you... Zaccheus for example was just curious.

Our brother believes this: 


 Quote. {I believe that God is real and that He communicates with His people.}

He Quotes Luke:  "how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

He asks us:  Quote: {How am I to interpret the above scriptures?} End Quote. With the idea that he has been "clean" for six months and received nothing.


The man obviously is putting scripture on trial. Or he is sincere and putting himself on trial. I have sentenced him to prayer and not as a judge for I judge him not, but as a friend. He is kind of a upside down Job. He is asking us for our counsels--as if we were free lawyers with legal advise.

His view of scripture is not assessed with the Holy Spirit, ( it is not spiritually discerned) which I think he would say he  knows he does not possess. ( He expects a validation. Quote{ "I believe that God is completely ignoring my plea for His help."}

In earnest prayer perhaps his will one day will become sensible as to receive the gift from an elder's hand. He is passing by a well which is the reason for Christians. Until he can assimilate  and they become intrinsic in his make-up Jesus and the Cross, he will continue with the beliefs he has today. 

Pray... and pray some more my friend. In the mean time... be patient ... and expect more of this:


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Hawg I think God is talking to you.  You have by your own admission removed sin from your life and repented and are earnestly seeking God.  If that's not a sure sign of God at work in your life...........well I can't think of any better.  Maybe you're listening for thunder but not seeing the lightening.


----------



## HawgJawl

gordon 2 said:


> With the idea that he has been "clean" for six months and received nothing.
> 
> All I am asking to "receive" is the exact same thing most Christians claim they have.
> 
> If you KNOW that God is real and is working in your life, I could ask you how you know this.  Whatever your answer is, that's what I am asking for.
> 
> The man obviously is putting scripture on trial. Or he is sincere and putting himself on trial.



I'm not putting scripture on trial.  I'm trying to live my life in accordance with scripture.  Some scriptures describe a two-way relationship between man and God and I honestly believe that I'm doing my part to the best of my ability and waiting for the promised response from God.


----------



## HawgJawl

SemperFiDawg said:


> Hawg I think God is talking to you.  You have by your own admission removed sin from your life and repented and are earnestly seeking God.  If that's not a sure sign of God at work in your life...........well I can't think of any better.  Maybe you're listening for thunder but not seeing the lightening.



I understand the concept of attributing everything that a person views as "good" to their chosen diety.  I believe that what I have done so far has been my own doing.  I have two reasons for this belief.

(1)  I have not felt God's presence in any way nor have I felt led or guided to do anything. My actions have been conscious choices.

(2)  A person could just as easily claim that God was working in my life if I flew a plane into a building and that person viewed the act as "good".


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Some people don't view themselves as broken, thank you...



Two things were missing in his testimony that is normally there.

1) Jesus saved me.

2) A relationship with Christ.

What is there is physical actions and studying to gain scriptural knowledge. All done with the mind...Jesus wants our love that comes from the heart and is sincere.

 I am not proclaiming him unsaved, but if the relationship is missing, I personally would check up.


----------



## gordon 2

HawgJawl said:


> I was raised in a small Southern Baptist Church. At the age of 13, I responded to the alter call, walked down the aisle, got down on my knees, prayed, cried, and asked Jesus to save me, come into my life, and be my Lord and Savior. I was baptised in a muddy creek and joined the church.
> 
> I grew in my spiritual life for many years and never seemed to tire of praying and studying scripture.
> 
> Years later, I fell away from the church and gradually lost my faith.
> 
> For the past five months, I've been trying to get back to that place where I used to be spiritually.  Two months ago, I even visited the church of my youth and repeated walking down the aisle and getting down on my knees, repenting of my sins, and asking Jesus to take control of my life as my Lord and Savior.
> 
> If this is not enough, then I have two questions;
> 
> (1)  What is the correct interpretation of the two scriptures I posted in the OP?
> 
> (2)  How many times have you personally observed a pastor who has just prayed with a person responding to an alter call who tells the person in front of the whole church that their plea for salvation is probably not enough?




I want to win a multi-million dollar lottery, I dream about what I would do if I won. But I'm not sincere about it. I actually don't tender "my" money for a ticket.

Just for the record. I once wanted, just like you, what I had when I was young. For me it was innocence with a spiritually assessed "feeling-event" that I  had not received from scripture, the church or anything religious.

I was mowing, with a push mover, the cemetery behind the church one day. As I was cutting around the tomb stones, I was admiring the flowers, especially's the bright red Devil's Paint Brush flowers against the green lawn and the gray-black tombstones. I admired how it was so lovely to be this side of the grave. And then it happened. It seemed I was walking 2" off the ground. That I was is not important, that I felt I was is. It was a moment of inspiration-- a three dimensional appreciation of existence. It was a warm sunny day. It was innocence.

Is innocence what you what back or is it something else? Is it faith? You say you have lost your faith. On what basis do you ask for the Holy Spirit in your life? How can you "believe" God is real and yet you have lost your faith? 




  Quote; "What is the correct interpretation of the two scriptures I posted in the OP?"

1. For with the heart one believes... ( requires faith--as belief without faith is not belief.)

2. ...the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” ( requires faith--because you cannot ask without belief that you will receive...)

So the two scriptures require FAITH! Which you say you have lost. So your interpretation of scripture is faithless by your own admission. You are asking without faith? This is not asking...

If you really want what you had, if indeed it was once faith and innocence, then scripture now is not where you will find it. Find someone who can coach you in prayer...and before you ask for the Holy Spirit from God,  like it was a big jackpot, perhaps your jackpot might just be asking for faith in prayer and once you have faith, then you can buy the ticket for the million?--whatever that will be... It might change once you've regained faith as part of your belief in the Divine.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Two things were missing in his testimony that is normally there.
> 
> 1) Jesus saved me.
> 
> 2) A relationship with Christ.
> 
> What is there is physical actions and studying to gain scriptural knowledge. All done with the mind...Jesus wants our love that comes from the heart and is sincere.
> 
> I am not proclaiming him unsaved, but if the relationship is missing, I personally would check up.



I agree and suspect as you 2110%... Perhaps the man should visit the boy in Muddy Creek...


----------



## gordon 2

There is no sense in reading this, so don't feel obliged... but I like cut and paste....sometimes..just for the joy of it when it might bring light to a tread.

Acts 8:26-40King James Version (KJV)

26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.


----------



## HawgJawl

hobbs27 said:


> Two things were missing in his testimony that is normally there.
> 
> 1) Jesus saved me.
> 
> 2) A relationship with Christ.
> 
> What is there is physical actions and studying to gain scriptural knowledge. All done with the mind...Jesus wants our love that comes from the heart and is sincere.
> 
> I am not proclaiming him unsaved, but if the relationship is missing, I personally would check up.




You're correct in the two things missing from my testimony.  My question is WHY those two things are missing.

(1) Jesus saved me.
I can provide my half of this.  I earnestly asked Jesus to save me.  What specifically occurs to make a person KNOW that Jesus saved them as opposed to them asking for salvation with no response?

(2) A relationship with Christ.
I can provide my half of this.  I pray to Jesus and ask for guidance.  What specifically occurs to make a person KNOW that God is leading them as opposed to the thoughts originating in their own mind?

I love Christ and am thankful for His sacrifice for me.  I want a personal relationship with Him.  I just don't feel one.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

HawgJawl said:


> I understand the concept of attributing everything that a person views as "good" to their chosen diety.  I believe that what I have done so far has been my own doing.  I have two reasons for this belief.
> 
> (1)  I have not felt God's presence in any way nor have I felt led or guided to do anything. My actions have been conscious choices.
> 
> (2)  A person could just as easily claim that God was working in my life if I flew a plane into a building and that person viewed the act as "good".



Then in that case keep praying, reading the Bible, and be patient and that's not meant as a flippant remark, but a heartfelt encouragement.


----------



## hobbs27

HawgJawl said:


> You're correct in the two things missing from my testimony.  My question is WHY those two things are missing.
> 
> (1) Jesus saved me.
> I can provide my half of this.  I earnestly asked Jesus to save me.  What specifically occurs to make a person KNOW that Jesus saved them as opposed to them asking for salvation with no response?
> 
> (2) A relationship with Christ.
> I can provide my half of this.  I pray to Jesus and ask for guidance.  What specifically occurs to make a person KNOW that God is leading them as opposed to the thoughts originating in their own mind?
> 
> I love Christ and am thankful for His sacrifice for me.  I want a personal relationship with Him.  I just don't feel one.




 You say Christ has done nothing for you, so why do you love Him? How could you love Him, since to you He's just a character in a book?

I realized He is more than a character, He is Lord. My eternity depends upon Him. He was ridiculed, spat upon, beat, and nailed to a cross in my place. I'm the one that was deserving of those terrible things, but He took it for me and gave me hope in eternal life. I'm so thankful, and yes it broke my heart knowing that while He hang on the cross I was on His mind.

There is indeed a true and living God, believe this with all your heart and you will have that relationship.


----------



## HawgJawl

hobbs27 said:


> You say Christ has done nothing for you, so why do you love Him? How could you love Him, since to you He's just a character in a book?



That creates quite a paradox, doesn't it?

I can't have a relationship with Christ unless I love Him first.

I can't really love Christ unless I have a relationship with him first.


----------



## hobbs27

HawgJawl said:


> That creates quite a paradox, doesn't it?
> 
> I can't have a relationship with Christ unless I love Him first.
> 
> I can't really love Christ unless I have a relationship with him first.



The loving is the beginning, and when someone can describe how to make themselves love ..I want to read that detail, cause I've never learned to control it, it appears to be a force outside of myself. 
 I hope you find peace.


----------



## barryl

HawgJawl said:


> You're correct in the two things missing from my testimony.  My question is WHY those two things are missing.
> 
> (1) Jesus saved me.
> I can provide my half of this.  I earnestly asked Jesus to save me.  What specifically occurs to make a person KNOW that Jesus saved them as opposed to them asking for salvation with no response?
> 
> (2) A relationship with Christ.
> I can provide my half of this.  I pray to Jesus and ask for guidance.  What specifically occurs to make a person KNOW that God is leading them as opposed to the thoughts originating in their own mind?
> 
> I love Christ and am thankful for His sacrifice for me.  I want a personal relationship with Him.  I just don't feel one.


"I just don't feel one" HJ, I hope you don't mind me trying to help! Salvation is more than a feeling, you can know!(1 Cor. 6:19-20, Col.2:11, 1 John 5:13) I know that others have been trying to help, I saw where another made the suggestion of you possibly being out of fellowship with God. You ever had your hind end spiritually blistered?  (Heb.12:5-11) The Apostle Paul told us to examine  ourselves.(2 Cor. 13:5) fruit of the Spirit (Gal.5:22-26), Christian virtues (2 Peter:1-10)  Faith, (Heb.11:6) KJV AV 1611 Praying for ya!!


----------



## Artfuldodger

The proof is the Bible tells you if you do your 1/10 God will do his 9/10's. The proof is in your faith, repentance is your fruit.
Maybe you need to re-look at the Holy Spirit cessation doctrine and find your proof in God's Word.


----------



## HawgJawl

Artfuldodger said:


> The proof is the Bible tells you if you do your 1/10 God will do his 9/10's. The proof is in your faith, repentance is your fruit.
> Maybe you need to re-look at the Holy Spirit cessation doctrine and find your proof in God's Word.



How is that different than finding my proof in the Quran or a sacred Hindu text?  Is there really nothing more to a "personal relationship with Jesus"?


----------



## Day trip

Christ tells us to Love God first and love your neighbor as yourself.  The rest is just details.  So go do that.  Well I don't know about you but if somebody told me to " go do that" when I was in your shoes I would have no idea where to start.   So lets start simple.  

How do you love God?  By reciting words?  By spending a certain number of hours a day on your knees?  Yes and No.  (See, even starting simple, it's not that simple,  it's like a golf swing, the most unnatural and unrealistic thing in the world until you get it.  When you get it, you've got it and it seems ridiculous that everyone else doesn't get it).   To love God is to love truth, to love all of his creation, to love the reality of life and learn to accept it and work with it instead of fighting to make things the way you want them to be. 
 Begin by looking at yourself, your moods, your responses to others and based on what you find,  work to improve your impulse response.  Take a conscience effort to live each scenario in your life as Christ taught, as you know to be true in your heart.  
That guy that just cut you off in traffic,  did he really hurt you?  No.  So why are you getting angry?  Love him,  imagine it was your brother,  would you react the same?  No, you would laugh it off and everything would be fine.  That lady that was rude to you for no reason.  Did she hurt you?  No.  Dont get angry and argue back.  Love her.  Absorb it because she is only acting that way because something has hurt her.  Your kids haven't picked up their toys and you have asked a hundred times.  Don't scream, holler and yell and make everyone cry.  Stop, get down with them,  talk TO them, not AT them and show them how to do what you ask.  Be patient, be kind,  train yourself to respond with love in all situations.  
Initially it is as hard as that golf swing.  But over time, it become you, it becomes natural,  you find yourself kinder, happier, more people want to see you and talk to you.   
So what is happening here?  You are loving God.  Loving truth.  Not just with words but with your actions, with your very soul.  You find yourself becoming something else, you find yourself becoming, well, more like Jesus.  
As you take these first few steps, be patient.  Spend a lot of time thinking, listening and only talk when necessary.  As you start looking deep into your heart, you will eventually learn that you do already know all of this.  It seems too simple but that's what's so funny, when you start changing, start improving, start dealing with every single scenario in your life as it is and NOT as you wish it would be, you learn that there is nothing you cannot handle.  You learn that every encounter, every action is direct communication with God.  If you begin by changing the only thing in this universe that you can control (that being yourself) and living by the Gospel and living by the laws of your soul which are written in your heart,  you will discover a peace and a happiness far above anything you have ever imagined.  When you realize that God is present in every action and every emotion, then you learn how to listen to Him, you will find him.  
God calls each one of us to him every second of every day.  You are given choices about how to respond, to act, to think constantly.  If you act against him, you find things to be impossible, terrible.  If you act according to his laws, you find out that you are ok.  Maybe not like you wanted but how it must be.  God constantly challenges you to grow, to change,  to learn to follow the truth.  
So my friend, God is calling you to himself.  Don't lose hope because you are wandering blindly trying to find him.  Be patient.  Follow the laws of your soul, follow truth in every action.  Learn to recognize that God is not some being sitting on a cloud looking down on us with a score card but he is present in every person, every place every thing, every action, every reaction.  His love is truth.  If you follow the truth, the hard truth that you really don't want to approach because it causes you to give up everything in your life, if you follow that truth, you find Gods love and it is better than everything that you think you want right now.


----------



## Israel

The Lord's never let go of you.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Hey friend, thanks for sharing. I expect that some other might take comfort in knowing they are not the only one who sometimes feels as though God is hiding from them. My opinion is that your trying to hard. I understand the expectation of "seek and you shall find". What your finding is that God wants to be a "father" rather than a master. Does  love for  a son or daughter change by their behavior? No, but behavior does affect how one pleases a father, but love never changes.


----------



## hobbs27

Maybe for here, maybe not but a good read.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0003.htm


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> How is that different than finding my proof in the Quran or a sacred Hindu text?  Is there really nothing more to a "personal relationship with Jesus"?



I don't know and that's a good question. It's asked many times on here. Maybe we should all have an open mind and seek the truth in those too. Maybe we could form a fraternity of truth seekers to include all believers of a God of any religion.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

A great read regarding this issue. Roy Hession "when I saw him" I have read hundreds of religious books, most should be titled "how to whitewash the outside". Hessions small book is the best book I ever read


----------



## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> A great read regarding this issue. Roy Hession "when I saw him" I have read hundreds of religious books, most should be titled "how to whitewash the outside". Hessions small book is the best book I ever read



Does the book reveal why they get to see God but we don't?


----------



## hobbs27




----------



## StriperAddict

HawgJawl said:


> That creates quite a paradox, doesn't it?
> 
> I can't have a relationship with Christ unless I love Him first.
> 
> I can't really love Christ unless I have a relationship with him first.


 
He loved YOU first don't ever forget that...!

This...
\/\/\/



Israel said:


> The Lord's never let go of you.


 
Go into the scriptures and check all of the things that _God did_ the moment you gave your life to Christ. These will serve to help your connection, more than your own righteousness ever will.

In fact, nothing could seperate you from His love. You just returned and are finding that He asks you to come "boldly back to the grace place", in all your weakness and despair.
As you have returned to Father, as the prodigal did, such return is not so much on how many things _you're_ doing to "appease the Lord" (a false religious concept), but...
... just how far Jesus went to restore you to fellowship with _Him_.

The dialouge Father wanted with prodigals was/is always at the ready. We come & confess to get the communication pipe cleaned out (not to get 'saved' all over again).

Peace


----------



## Israel

I ask you to understand this. At a time when my life seemed "farther" from the Lord, then once it seemed...I too felt tormented with "If I want to "have" what I had, I must return to such and such a way of being..." I had to "go back" to a something...and it was a time of sore dismay of much puzzling, meditation, pouring my heart (as best I understood), questions, uttered in prayer, (also seemingly unuttered in meditations...but there, nonetheless).
I used to be "such and such a way..." and "feel" such and such a way, which compared to the way I was feeling...seemed so much the more. I can't tell you a precise moment of awakening...but I can tell you of a breaking of something...something that was so hard and devoted to "feeling" a certain way, that it saw "being" in the Lord as something that could never allow for anything other than that "feeling".
Suffice it to say, it was in the midst, even in the throes of this dismay that such a cataclysm of "potential" made itself known...or better put, tried to...and yet, out of which the Lord not only showed himself gloriously present, but miraculously kind. To me. The one "feeling"...a little distant.
Previously, I would have "said", "no, a man can do nothing to make the Lord love him more, be more for him, than he is right now"...but the reality of it...the utter truth of it...the glory of it...the depths of it...the all surrounding...comfort of it...was for me to see in a way even my words could not express.
Of course what became plain in that glory was that God was never calling me to "go back"...I was where he had me...all the time...even though I didn't much seem to think much of it...or, of me...at the time.
And of course, that was a crucial part of the "breaking of a thing" that needed to be broken...how devoted I was to seeing myself a certain way...that I believed God's approval, care, reality (felt/experienced), could "be for me".
Would I have chosen this brush with "fire" ever? Even if someone had told me "God will show himself to you in a way you can't even imagine...just choose this path..." I surely would not, of myself, gone.
Of course, the truth of it...the simple reality of it...is this...we are all appointed to experience the Lord's life when we are begotten of him. Salvation.
Now here's something I consider brother Hawg. What if your present seeming vexation, of which you may see I may know even in just a little bit, was precisely appointed for you, to you...so that I, being chosen to "go through" a very little bit...might be in some small way, for your comfort? And your "need" called out to my own vexation, "then" leading me to a place I wouldn't have gone...to see the glory of the Lord? Do you see, brother, I am your debtor in this? Your present need...was ample supply for my lack? Were I to say God is a chessmaster, would still be so far short of all he is, and does.
That's why I have confidence, no, a better surety of hope for you, and me, than ever I had before. Your hope to hear, is no less my own hope to hear. Your hope to be confirmed in this faith, my hope, too.
I thank God for you brother.
Hasn't the master told us not to look back after taking the plow?
We can't go "back"...except to the only one who is before us both.
There he is.
Here, he is. 
Peace, brother...and pray for me.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> I love Christ and am thankful for His sacrifice for me.  I want a personal relationship with Him.  I just don't feel one.



And what if you never feel one?  Is His grace really enough for you?  Is the work of redemption Christ did for you on the cross enough for you? Do you realize one who is set free from sin is free from it? Does He who is already your Savior owe you anything else?  And in contrast, do you owe Him anything?  Could you ever repay it?

My suggestion to you is this: Love God, Love Jesus, Love others and serve them with all your heart and mind. Commit everything you have and all that you are to the Lord!  And you will receive rewards on earth and eternal life from your Savior in the end!


----------



## SemperFiDawg

formula1 said:


> And what if you never feel one?  Is His grace really enough for you?  Is the work of redemption Christ did for you on the cross enough for you? Do you realize one who is set free from sin is free from it? Does He who is already your Savior owe you anything else?  And in contrast, do you owe Him anything?  Could you ever repay it?
> 
> My suggestion to you is this: Love God, Love Jesus, Love others and serve them with all your heart and mind. Commit everything you have and all that you are to the Lord!  And you will receive rewards on earth and eternal life from your Savior in the end!



We'll said.  Very, very, well said


----------



## HawgJawl

formula1 said:


> And what if you never feel one?  Is His grace really enough for you?  Is the work of redemption Christ did for you on the cross enough for you? Do you realize one who is set free from sin is free from it? Does He who is already your Savior owe you anything else?  And in contrast, do you owe Him anything?  Could you ever repay it?
> 
> My suggestion to you is this: Love God, Love Jesus, Love others and serve them with all your heart and mind. Commit everything you have and all that you are to the Lord!  And you will receive rewards on earth and eternal life from your Savior in the end!



How do I know that God's grace has in fact saved me? How do I know that I have been redeemed?  Many will say Lord, Lord, but few will actually be saved.  

Many Christians testify that they KNOW they have a personal relationship with Jesus and they feel His presence daily.  Many Christians can articulate precisely how they KNOW God is working in their lives.  I cannot.


----------



## gemcgrew

HawgJawl said:


> How do I know that God's grace has in fact saved me? How do I know that I have been redeemed?  Many will say Lord, Lord, but few will actually be saved.
> 
> Many Christians testify that they KNOW they have a personal relationship with Jesus and they feel His presence daily.  Many Christians can articulate precisely how they KNOW God is working in their lives.  I cannot.


So what! Flesh and blood can not reveal it. One is born after the flesh, another by promise.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> How do I know that God's grace has in fact saved me? How do I know that I have been redeemed?



By Faith! 

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 

Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. 

Romans 10
6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

John 5:24 
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.

Galatians 2
20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 

Finally, if I tried to live by earthly facts and worldly knowledge, I likely would be as confused as you seem to be.  But I live by faith, that is, I trust the One true God and Christ whom He sent that He will save me and complete His work in me.  

I 'know' because He loved me first just as He loved you first.  By faith, not by sight!  Always! God Bless!


----------



## barryl

The Gospel! 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV AV 1611 It's about trusting what the "Lord Jesus Christ" did at Calvary, by faith!!!


----------



## HawgJawl

formula1 said:


> By Faith!
> 
> I live by faith, that is, I trust the One true God and Christ whom He sent that He will save me and complete His work in me.
> 
> I 'know' because He loved me first just as He loved you first.  By faith, not by sight!  Always! God Bless!




I've met many people over the years who CLAIM to be Christians but their actions speak otherwise.  Some of these people, I'm certain, actually believe they are saved.  They have faith that they are saved because they walked down the aisle of a church when they were kids.

My point is that simply convincing yourself that you are saved does not necessarily mean that you are saved.

Most people believe that they are basically good people and when they die will go to heaven, but scripture says that the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.  

Scripture says that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord", will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Scripture says that many will say "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?"

Those people in the above scripture are depicted as actually arguing with God at judgment because they believed they were saved.  They had faith that they were destined for heaven.

I haven't prophesied in the name of Jesus.  I haven't cast out demons in the name of Jesus.  I haven't done mighty works in the name of Jesus.  All I've done is say "Lord, Lord".


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> I've met many people over the years who CLAIM to be Christians but their actions speak otherwise.  Some of these people, I'm certain, actually believe they are saved.  They have faith that they are saved because they walked down the aisle of a church when they were kids.
> 
> My point is that simply convincing yourself that you are saved does not necessarily mean that you are saved.
> 
> Most people believe that they are basically good people and when they die will go to heaven, but scripture says that the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
> 
> Scripture says that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord", will enter the kingdom of heaven.
> 
> Scripture says that many will say "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?"
> 
> Those people in the above scripture are depicted as actually arguing with God at judgment because they believed they were saved.  They had faith that they were destined for heaven.



My point is simpler, salvation only comes by faith in Jesus Christ. As the apostle Peter put it, "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

I make no CLAIM other than I know by faith Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.  I have trusted Him with my life and my salvation. And I have received the promised Holy Spirit which bears witness to my spirit that I am a child of God.  And I have put my trust in Him for this life and the life to come!

John 1
12 But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Romans 8:16 
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

And if your basis for your own salvation experience is looking at other people, you have failed already.  Look to Christ as He is the only One in which you will find it.

I am not a good person, not even close, but I live with the righteousness of Christ applied to my life by faith. His grace is so amazing, so simple, but also incomprehensible. That's why few find it, that is, because it is too wonderful for many to believe.  Most of us would rather keep our comfort zone, our arguments and debate, and reason. We can't let go of ourselves long enough to see Him.  This thing called Christ is not reasonable.  Scripture even calls it the 'foolishness of God'. 

1 Corinthians 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Concerning Matthew 7:21-24, you missed the point of the scripture in that those people believed their efforts, their works, their command of the spirit in prophesy and casting out demons would save them.  They read right over this part of the passage, "but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven".  And what is the Father's will?

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

That belief, that trust, that faith is unavoidable!

God Bless!


----------



## Artfuldodger

formula1 said:


> My point is simpler, salvation only comes by faith in Jesus Christ. As the apostle Peter put it, "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)
> 
> I make no CLAIM other than I know by faith Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.  I have trusted Him with my life and my salvation. And I have received the promised Holy Spirit which bears witness to my spirit that I am a child of God.  And I have put my trust in Him for this life and the life to come!
> 
> John 1
> 12 But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
> Romans 8:16
> The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
> 
> And if your basis for your own salvation experience is looking at other people, you have failed already.  Look to Christ as He is the only One in which you will find it.
> 
> I am not a good person, not even close, but I live with the righteousness of Christ applied to my life by faith. His grace is so amazing, so simple, but also incomprehensible. That's why few find it, that is, because it is too wonderful for many to believe.  Most of us would rather keep our comfort zone, our arguments and debate, and reason. We can't let go of ourselves long enough to see Him.  This thing called Christ is not reasonable.  Scripture even calls it the 'foolishness of God'.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
> 
> Concerning Matthew 7:21-24, you missed the point of the scripture in that those people believed their efforts, their works, their command of the spirit in prophesy and casting out demons would save them.  They read right over this part of the passage, "but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven".  And what is the Father's will?
> 
> John 6:40
> For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
> 
> That belief, that trust, that faith is unavoidable!
> 
> God Bless!



I believe you nailed the correct answer. Those that won't be saved are the ones who are trying to save themselves. The ones who do the will of the Father which is to  believe Jesus died for them will be saved.


----------



## HawgJawl

How were the people depicted in Matthew able to perform miracles in Jesus' name if they did not know Jesus?  Does God give heathens the power to perform miracles in His name?


----------



## gordon 2

HawgJawl said:


> How were the people depicted in Matthew able to perform miracles in Jesus' name if they did not know Jesus?  Does God give heathens the power to perform miracles in His name?



What makes you think they are heathens? Are you at the end of your tether?  Grasping at straws? What is a heathen?


----------



## gordon 2

HawgJawl said:


> I've met many people over the years who CLAIM to be Christians but their actions speak otherwise.  Some of these people, I'm certain, actually believe they are saved.  They have faith that they are saved because they walked down the aisle of a church when they were kids.
> 
> My point is that simply convincing yourself that you are saved does not necessarily mean that you are saved.
> 
> Most people believe that they are basically good people and when they die will go to heaven, but scripture says that the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
> 
> Scripture says that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord", will enter the kingdom of heaven.
> 
> Scripture says that many will say "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?"
> 
> Those people in the above scripture are depicted as actually arguing with God at judgment because they believed they were saved.  They had faith that they were destined for heaven.
> 
> I haven't prophesied in the name of Jesus.  I haven't cast out demons in the name of Jesus.  I haven't done mighty works in the name of Jesus.  All I've done is say "Lord, Lord".



That is not faith! Faith is a whole other kettle of fish. You really don't know what faith is maybe? Because you would not say stuff like you said in the blue above.

The bingo prize of faith is not motivated by a ticket to heaven. The bingo prize of faith is that one day you'll have some.


----------



## HawgJawl

gordon 2 said:


> What makes you think they are heathens? Are you at the end of your tether?  Grasping at straws? What is a heathen?



A heathen would be someone who is not going to heaven because God says to them: Depart from me for I never knew you.

How is this person, whom God never knew, able to perform miracles in Jesus' name?


----------



## HawgJawl

gordon 2 said:


> That is not faith! Faith is a whole other kettle of fish. You really don't know what faith is maybe? Because you would not say stuff like you said in the blue above.



I said that in response to people telling me that all I need to do is believe I'm saved in order to be saved.  I think there are people who believe they are saved who are in fact not saved.


----------



## StriperAddict

HawgJawl said:


> I've met many people over the years who CLAIM to be Christians but their actions speak otherwise. Some of these people, I'm certain, actually believe they are saved. They have faith that they are saved because they walked down the aisle of a church when they were kids.
> 
> My point is that simply convincing yourself that you are saved does not necessarily mean that you are saved.
> 
> Most people believe that they are basically good people and when they die will go to heaven, but scripture says that the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
> 
> Scripture says that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord", will enter the kingdom of heaven.
> 
> Scripture says that many will say "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?"
> 
> Those people in the above scripture are depicted as actually arguing with God at judgment because they believed they were saved. They had faith that they were destined for heaven.
> 
> I haven't prophesied in the name of Jesus. I haven't cast out demons in the name of Jesus. I haven't done mighty works in the name of Jesus. All I've done is say "Lord, Lord".


 
If God doesn't save you when you call/cry unto Christ by faith, 
then you must believe there is something to add to the cross of Christ that Jesus and the Father never intended.

I had that slippery slope going on for years. A healty look at what God did the moment I trusted Him dispelled much of the religious nonsensical dogma preached as truth today.

For instance, you've kicked around the law of Moses much on these forums... what part about it being nailed to the cross don't you understand? "The letter kills but the Spirit brings life"...

Plus, it was the Spirit of God that placed us (baptized us) into the body of Christ the very moment we cried to the Lord, something you or I cannot possibly do without the cross and grace of our Lord...

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
and
Rom 6:3
Or do you not know that all of us who have been <SUP class=crossreference data-cr="#cen-NASB-28072E" value='(E)'>(E)</SUP>baptized into <SUP class=crossreference data-cr="#cen-NASB-28072F" value='(F)'>(F)</SUP>Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?


I hope your studies bring you the ephipiany you seek with/and in Christ.


----------



## hobbs27

HawgJawl said:


> How were the people depicted in Matthew able to perform miracles in Jesus' name if they did not know Jesus?  Does God give heathens the power to perform miracles in His name?



Because the blood had not been shed. No one had the Holy Spirit dwelling within, but the spirit was upon them.

The blood applied is how Jesus knows you for judgement.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Because the blood had not been shed. No one had the Holy Spirit dwelling within, but the spirit was upon them.
> 
> The blood applied is how Jesus knows you for judgement.



Hawljawl is asking a good question. I don't have an answer. I do not agree with your answer. 
Maybe they didn't do the three things they thought they did. Maybe they were into a false gospel. 
It is a thought provoking question.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Hawljawl is asking a good question. I don't have an answer. I do not agree with your answer.
> Maybe they didn't do the three things they thought they did. Maybe they were into a false gospel.
> It is a thought provoking question.



Not really. He's mistaking the kingdom for heaven.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> How were the people depicted in Matthew able to perform miracles in Jesus' name if they did not know Jesus?  Does God give heathens the power to perform miracles in His name?



Heathen - one who does accept or belong to a religion.  In this case, Christianity.  These people believed themselves to be followers of Christ and would consider themselves Christians.  They are not heathens.

But they have a flaw in that they choose to do works, works that get them attention or notoriety, but works that God did not will.  They thought themselves to be insiders but they did not really know God as they did not do His will.  It is a warning to us all, we better make sure that our efforts are not for ourselves, but for Him.

As to how they can do these miracles,  God gives the Holy Spirit to all believers liberally.   One could potentially use the gifts of the Spirit to deceive the masses.  There are plenty of examples out there of this very thing today.  And remember, God prefers the wheat and the tares to grow together and He will separate them at the end.

And please remember the message of this parable, that is, make sure He knows You by living wholly for Him!

God Bless!


----------



## Artfuldodger

formula1 said:


> Heathen - one who does accept or belong to a religion.  In this case, Christianity.  These people believed themselves to be followers of Christ and would consider themselves Christians.  They are not heathens.
> 
> But they have a flaw in that they choose to do works, works that get them attention or notoriety, but works that God did not will.  They thought themselves to be insiders but they did not really know God as they did not do His will.  It is a warning to us all, we better make sure that our efforts are not for ourselves, but for Him.
> 
> As to how they can do these miracles,  God gives the Holy Spirit to all believers liberally.   One could potentially use the gifts of the Spirit to deceive the masses.  There are plenty of examples out there of this very thing today.  And remember, God prefers the wheat and the tares to grow together and He will separate them at the end.
> 
> 
> And please remember the message of this parable, that is, make sure He knows You by living wholly for Him!
> 
> God Bless!



It sounds like you are saying some believers will recieve salvation and some won't. That believers who use the powers of the Holy Spirit for the wrong reasons will not recieve salvation.
If this be true would not believers be falling from grace?

I understand the "tares" to have never been believers. If a believer is one who believes Jesus is the only path to their salvation later decides he needs to perform "works" for salvation, Jesus will say, I NEVER knew you. 
I'm having trouble believing this is true. One year ago I would have agreed with you, but I have since repented.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Because the blood had not been shed. No one had the Holy Spirit dwelling within, but the spirit was upon them.
> 
> The blood applied is how Jesus knows you for judgement.



Can you explain in a little more detail how an un-believer can use the power of the Holy Spirit even before the cross?
Was the Holy Spirit "Upon" non-beleivers?
I'm assuming these people who Jesus never knew were prophesing, casting out demons, and other wonderful miracles in the name of Jesus.
Jesus never said they weren't doing what they said they were doing, just that they were doing them for the wrong reason. They were using the Powers for the wrong reasons such as their own glory and to receive salvation.

Does Matthew 5:45 apply in letting non-believers have powers?

In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike.


----------



## formula1

Artfuldodger said:


> It sounds like you are saying some believers will recieve salvation and some won't. That believers who use the powers of the Holy Spirit will not recieve salvation.
> If this be true would not believers be falling from grace?
> 
> I understand the "tares" to have never been believers. If a believer is one who believes Jesus is the only path to their salvation later decides he needs to perform "works" for salvation, Jesus will say, I NEVER knew you.
> I'm having trouble believing this is true. One year ago I would have agreed with you, but I have since repented.



Not what I said.  I understand 'tares' as believers gone astray. Unbelievers are already condemned.  You and I are either 'Wheat' that benefit the body of Christ, or 'tares' that hinder it.  I strive to be 'wheat' for my Master as I am sure you do.  But tares, well they still grow with the wheat, but they are separated at harvest.

Does not also the parable of the sower describe how differently one can receive the gospel, some good, some bad?

The key to salvation in my mind is not do I know Jesus, but does Jesus know me!  Ponder that one for awhile!  I do almost everyday!  God Bless!


----------



## Artfuldodger

formula1 said:


> Not what I said.  I understand 'tares' as believers gone astray. Unbelievers are already condemned.  You and I are either 'Wheat' that benefit the body of Christ, or 'tares' that hinder it.  I strive to be 'wheat' for my Master as I am sure you do.  But tares, well they still grow with the wheat, but they are separated at harvest.
> 
> Does not also the parable of the sower describe how differently one can receive the gospel, some good, some bad?
> 
> The key to salvation in my mind is not do I know Jesus, but does Jesus know me!  Ponder that one for awhile!  I do almost everyday!  God Bless!



Yeah I left off "using powers of the Holy Spirit FOR THE WRONG REASONS."
Since my edit, would you agree with what I thought you said or am I still not following or were you talking about tares being ex-believers instead of never believers?


----------



## Artfuldodger

formula1 said:


> Not what I said.  I understand 'tares' as believers gone astray. Unbelievers are already condemned.  You and I are either 'Wheat' that benefit the body of Christ, or 'tares' that hinder it.  I strive to be 'wheat' for my Master as I am sure you do.  But tares, well they still grow with the wheat, but they are separated at harvest.
> 
> Does not also the parable of the sower describe how differently one can receive the gospel, some good, some bad?
> 
> The key to salvation in my mind is not do I know Jesus, but does Jesus know me!  Ponder that one for awhile!  I do almost everyday!  God Bless!



If believers can go astray by once again believing they can save themselves by "works" then isn't Hawgjawl back to where he was in thinking one can loose their salvation?
He's looking for Blessed Assurance that your belief that tares were once believers takes away.

And I will ponder your question. Does Jesus know that I believe he died for my sins? Have I repented from believing works will save me? Isn't that all Jesus needs to know of me?


----------



## formula1

*re:*

You'll have to answer the questions for yourself. I have to do it for me.

I believe it possible for someone to turn away from the faith. I also believe it is highly unlikely.  The power of the Spirit of God makes this tough.  That we should have a healthy fear and constantly examine ourselves is what I am saying. Well, that and 'the just shall live by faith' .

Perhaps it is the tug of the Holy Spirit that is working to bring Hawg back to a path he once believed.


----------



## HawgJawl

StriperAddict said:


> If God doesn't save you when you call/cry unto Christ by faith,
> then you must believe there is something to add to the cross of Christ that Jesus and the Father never intended.



What you describe sounds very simple and easy.  The problem I have with "easy" is this:

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.  For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Also, if asking God for salvation is all that is required, then how do you interpret the following scripture:

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.  On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’  And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’


----------



## HawgJawl

hobbs27 said:


> Because the blood had not been shed. No one had the Holy Spirit dwelling within, but the spirit was upon them.
> 
> The blood applied is how Jesus knows you for judgement.



I take it that you're asserting that the people Jesus is talking about in Matthew 7:21-23 are only the people who were doing these things during Jesus' life?  I don't see where you can justify this interpretation.

Do you interpret the rest of Matthew chapter 7 to relate solely to people alive during Jesus' life?


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> I take it that you're asserting that the people Jesus is talking about in Matthew 7:21-23 are only the people who were doing these things during Jesus' life?  I don't see where you can justify this interpretation.
> 
> Do you interpret the rest of Matthew chapter 7 to relate solely to people alive during Jesus' life?



I know you are asking Hobbs and who it relates to  but formula explained it best in post #45:

Concerning Matthew 7:21-24, you missed the point of the scripture in that those people believed their efforts, their works, their command of the spirit in prophesy and casting out demons would save them. They read right over this part of the passage, "but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven". And what is the Father's will?

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.


----------



## HawgJawl

formula1 said:


> But they have a flaw in that they choose to do works, works that get them attention or notoriety, but works that God did not will.  They thought themselves to be insiders but they did not really know God as they did not do His will.



Jesus didn't take credit for His miracles as if He possessed the power within Himself.  Jesus said that the miracles come from the Father.  With this in mind, if a person prays to God for a miracle in the name of Jesus Christ and God does in fact supply that miracle, how could the miracle be against God's will?


----------



## formula1

I would imagine there is nothing false about such a person and God's will is done.  But there are false prophets doing miracles everyday.  You know how I know:

Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.


----------



## HawgJawl

formula1 said:


> I would imagine there is nothing false about such a person and God's will is done.
> 
> These are the folk I'm talking about who believe that they are saved but are told at judgment that God never knew them.
> 
> 
> 
> But there are false prophets doing miracles everyday.  You know how I know:
> 
> Matthew 24:24
> For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
> 
> 1 John 4:1
> Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.



The false prophets who are intentionally trying to lead people astray do not sound like the same people who actually believe they are saved in Matthew 7:21-23.


----------



## StriperAddict

HawgJawl said:


> What you describe sounds very simple and easy. The problem I have with "easy" is this:
> 
> Matthew 7:13-14
> Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
> 
> Also, if asking God for salvation is all that is required, then how do you interpret the following scripture:
> 
> Matthew 7:21-23
> Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’


 
Notice the "knew you" part, and that the narrow gate is Christ Jesus, come in the flesh. This si something only straigh up from the scriptures, and it ought to humble us to no end that He counts us in the fold when we indeed "ask".

What comes from that is a regenerate man/woman, one with the Spirit, and that same believer begins to live out of His identity in Christ, not for show (that never knew you part), but out of the love birthed by the Spirit; we walk by faith


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

I didn't see the word 'intentionally'.  You added that and changed the meaning of the passage. 

It proves people can be false and still perform signs and wonders and lead people astray.  They may even think they are right!

But good luck in your search.  You either are truly searching for truth or searching for a way to justify your run from it.  At this point, I'll admit I'm really not sure which one.  

I sincerely hope and pray you find the truth!  Christ is truth.  God Bless!


----------



## StriperAddict

BTW, believing seems "simple" until you realise that a death is involed... ours, as we are "crucified with Christ" ... a past action that God did, and in it He sees us as participants there, fully made alive in our new man (the new creation of 2Cor 5:17) because Christ put to death our "old self" - the old internal dead spirit, or adamic nature.
Therefore, If you could take any credit for this, or have to "work" to "Add to the free gift", you'd be boasting all over,
Christ's sacrifice would be of no value,
and then it ceases to be free, because you've returned to the chains of the law - and you're then under obligation to keep the whole law.

Don't give my words any ground in your heart if you have not gone to the word and settled these things for yourself.  I still maintain the epistles will assist you in the search for meaning and your identity in Christ.  It's all there cuz He did it all with the cross in ~30ad.

Peace


----------



## StriperAddict

formula1 said:


> I didn't see the word 'intentionally'. You added that and changed the meaning of the passage.
> 
> It proves people can be false and still perform signs and wonders and lead people astray. They may even think they are right!
> 
> But good luck in your search. You either are truly searching for truth or searching for a way to justify your run from it. At this point, I'll admit I'm really not sure which one.
> 
> I sincerely hope and pray you find the truth! Christ is truth. God Bless!


 
Indeed, in these last days we'll be seeing more of "lying signs and false wonders", coming from religious decievers void of the Spirit of God.  
The enemy is starting to put on quite a showcase in the world today ... IMO


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> The false prophets who are intentionally trying to lead people astray do not sound like the same people who actually believe they are saved in Matthew 7:21-23.



While I agree with the last few posts, I also wonder about this myself. False prophets performing great signs and wonders sounds different from the people in Matthew 7:21-23. These people were doing things in the Lord's name. At least they said they were. Jesus didn't tell them they weren't, he chastised them for doing them for the wrong reasons possibly pride, or to gain salvation. They thought they could gain salvation by doing these feats but Jesus told them it doesn't work that way.
I understand the lesson but I don't understand how they were able to perform these things in the Lord's name. Maybe since I understand the lesson I should not try to understand this non important part and move on. I'll just have to say, I don't know.


----------



## hobbs27

HawgJawl said:


> I take it that you're asserting that the people Jesus is talking about in Matthew 7:21-23 are only the people who were doing these things during Jesus' life?  I don't see where you can justify this interpretation.
> 
> Do you interpret the rest of Matthew chapter 7 to relate solely to people alive during Jesus' life?



The sermon begins with this:

And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:


2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

 From this we know Jesus is speaking to his disciples: the context is the coming kingdom of God or as matthew says kingdom of heaven which is the new testament in which God rules individuals and the old covenant of priests and the temple are gone.

 He is preaching the kingdom to people that have known nothing but Israel, the law, priests and scribes. He's preaching about a new covenant of grace, a new relationship with God called Christianity.

The sermon ends with:
 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

All the things taught in this sermon pertained to them. We are fortunate that the kingdom has come and along with scripture we have many generations of people abiding in Christs kingdom to direct us....None of the sermon had to do with an end of Christs kingdom but an end to the Old Covenant and judgement that fell on it.

 They could not enter in the kingdom yet, but Jesus was teaching them, giving them signs of its coming. We too have the blessings spoken of in this kingdom, bt the prophesy of its coming and the end of the world/age has come. 

 John said even after the resurrection and ascension :   1 John 2:18 NAS
New American Standard

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.


----------



## hobbs27

There was no salvation is Matthew 7 they had hope in a future salvation. Salvation came only by the way of the cross. Able the first man to die had to be saved by the blood of Christ, there is no other way.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> There was no salvation is Matthew 7 they had hope in a future salvation. Salvation came only by the way of the cross. Able the first man to die had to be saved by the blood of Christ, there is no other way.



When Jesus told people "I forgive you" or "Today you will be with me in paradise," they had to wait for the cross or resurrection for salvation?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> When Jesus told people "I forgive you" or "Today you will be with me in paradise," they had to wait for the cross or resurrection for salvation?



Yes. Paradise was not heaven , it was a place of refuge for the dead in Hades.
 The only way anyone from Abel to today could be saved is by the blood.
 The book of Enoch provides a lot of info on the dead and their waiting for Christ. We live in a better time now that the kingdom of God  has come.


----------



## gordon 2

Matthew 6, 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

 Matthew 6, 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

I know that these two verses in Matthew 6 are essential to the  Matthew 7"s:

7"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9"Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone?…

2 Points. a)Asking without an earnest and sympathetic heart( a man's treasure) is not asking. Treasure in Matthew 6 is described in scripture as things to store up in heaven.  b)And asking God to witness Himself is asking God to prove Himself or it is asking for the proof of God's existence.

We are told not to judge others Matthew 7:1, but that we would know others by their good (honest witness) or bad( false witness) or their fruits  Matthew7 19-20.

When someone is asking God for a personal relationship with God in the form of some kind of personal  proof of His existence so that they might believe, my point is that the asking comes from a motivation which is not sympathetic to anything spiritual. It is motivated from treasure stored in the mind ( types of logic), but not in the mind's heart the logic and emotional part.) It is motivated therefore from treasure stored in the world and not in heaven.

If we are cautioned not to know or judge people but by their fruits does this extend to our will to know and judge God? Why does scripture say" "Matthew 6, 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.[/COLOR]" The Kingdom and His righteousness is enough to prove God--it is the fruit of the divine.




Now this your, Hawgjawl's, fundamental question: 

I believe that God is completely ignoring my plea for His help. I have not felt God’s presence or influence in my life in any way over the past five months. How am I to interpret the above scriptures?

I will answer again. Pray. First, ask for His kingdom and his righteousness. Second, seek and you will find. Any other way of doing it to honestly know God is not only going to the incorrect door it is to completely overlook the whole house!

There is an element to faith that can be completely overlooked when studying scripture and that is emotion. Someone without a normal range of emotional make up in their mind, could really understand that scripture and the idea of God is a totally made up narrative. Good and bad as black and white concepts are not impossible to the mind. But this would be incorrect as pertains to life's reality. In faith, with a mind and heart set on were man's treasure is, we know that God is an emotional being. When in Genesis the narrator says, " and God saw that it was good..." this good is not of a good as in "good and evil" but it is  goodness meant in a heart felt and emotional way. 

Creation is inspiring and the kingdom of God even more so. To be inspired of it is to get in the way of Jesus or Peter when he said "    "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." For some of us, it will take time and prayer, lots of prayer to  know to undo a false run and accept to learn to walk again and that walking back will be walking home, and that walking home will be to the Kingdom of our Lord.

So pray with two positive attitudes: Pray for an understanding of where man's treasures are and seek the kingdom from the perspective of Christians. They witness of God and his kingdom and God does not witness of himself in this way.( The story of Job is perhaps a good study on this, where Job put God on trial for the "evil" that he experienced...)

It is my understanding of scripture that if anyone asked for a personal witness from the Devine, which squirts around these two points or avoids them purposely, they are not genuine in their prayers. Like Job they better have patience or perhaps they have no faith willfully or they are emotionally injured... and should seek healing and understanding of their condition. Three possibilities--- three reasons to come out clean.


----------



## HawgJawl

gordon 2 said:


> When someone is asking God for a personal relationship with God in the form of some kind of personal  proof of His existence so that they might believe, my point is that the asking comes from a motivation which is not sympathetic to anything spiritual.




I'm not asking God to prove to me that He exists.  I believe that God exists.  I believe that God makes His presence known to SOME people.  I believe SOME Christians who claim that they KNOW God is working in their lives because they have a personal relationship with God and they have their own "proof" of this in their own lives.  

Whatever this "proof" is, even though it may not count as proof to other people, it is something that this individual relies upon as assurance of their relationship with God.

If the ONLY reason you believe that God exists and that you are saved is because the Bible tells you so, then you are not the type of person I'm talking about.  But if you have any additional source of assurance of your salvation,  whatever that is, that is what I am seeking.


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> If the ONLY reason you believe that God exists and that you are saved is because the Bible tells you so, then you are not the type of person I'm talking about.



That's me and everybody I know.




HawgJawl said:


> But if you have any additional source of assurance of your salvation,  whatever that is, that is what I am seeking.



I've never met anybody like this.


----------



## HawgJawl

I'm confused.  Are you saying that you don't know anyone who claims to have a personal relationship with Jesus?  Are you saying that you don't know anyone who claims to feel God's presence in their lives?  Are you saying that you don't know anyone who believes that God has blessed them individually or has guided them in any decisions?

If I ask the following question,  "How do you know that God is still actively involved in the world today?"  Is there anyone on here who would answer anything more than "Just because I read it in the Bible"?


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> I'm confused.  Are you saying that you don't know anyone who claims to have a personal relationship with Jesus?  Are you saying that you don't know anyone who claims to feel God's presence in their lives?  Are you saying that you don't know anyone who believes that God has blessed them individually or has guided them in any decisions?




No, I'm just saying that I don't know anybody claiming to have:



HawgJawl said:


> ... any additional source of assurance of your salvation ...



... whatever that is.


----------



## gordon 2

HawgJawl said:


> I'm not asking God to prove to me that He exists.  I believe that God exists.  I believe that God makes His presence known to SOME people.  I believe SOME Christians who claim that they KNOW God is working in their lives because they have a personal relationship with God and they have their own "proof" of this in their own lives.
> 
> Whatever this "proof" is, even though it may not count as proof to other people, it is something that this individual relies upon as assurance of their relationship with God.
> 
> If the ONLY reason you believe that God exists and that you are saved is because the Bible tells you so, then you are not the type of person I'm talking about.  But if you have any additional source of assurance of your salvation,  whatever that is, that is what I am seeking.




Maybe you are getting somewhere.

  I have met Muslims that believe in Allah and Mohamed as his prophet because of the Koran. The Koran is the source of their spirituality for them. I now know that for some the Old and New Testaments, or what is writ there is the source or the "proof" of their salvation. I think there are many reasons why people would reason this way. Some reasons might be doctrinal and others might just be spiritual from a personal spirituality that might be fixed and confortable or parochialism.

So yes there is something else in my view, and in my experience.

 My biological father once said to me, when as a young man I sort of mocked the pilgrims that once in a while ventured to our local church to pray at a shrine replica of Lourdes (France). My father nearly ever talked about spiritual matters, but in this case he said, "Don't laugh, Annie, George's wife "saw." I said, "What did she see?" He replied, "She just saw."

Now Annie was a woman in the village which my father had known and although I had never met her I trusted dad that she was an ordinary village person, and not  someone special. She was one of us. She might have moved away or died when my dad told me this. What was important was that there was something to see that was brought about by her prayers, that was not of the ordinary and as you say was valid to her as a sign of/from the Divine in her life. It was intimate to her.

Also once in my life ( early 30s) I decided to take responsibility for my own spirituality. I studied all kinds of religions and faiths, talked to the people who would talk to me about Islam, the Baha'i faith, Zen Boudhism, Hindouism, Shino religion etc... Also at this time Joseph Campbell and like writers were fashionable and I studied them. 

After three yrs of this, I occurred to me that I had never dedicated such time to my own spiritual tradition which was christianity. So I decided to attend bible study at my local parish. And this is when, " I saw." I could chose two studies in the bible study session, so I chose to study the gospel of Matthew and Moses from the time he was found in his floating cradle to his death just before the Hebrews would enter the Promised Land.

These two studies together combined and from the perspective of both I saw. And what I saw was the kingdom which is much of Matthew's gospel with the perspective of the Hebrews getting to the promised land. It was an intellectual vision, but is was emotionally charged and much of my seeing was from the emotional area of my brain, not from usual ocular vision.

 If you can try to imagine,  in empathy, seeing a foreign country for the first time. You visit there, you do the tours, you see the sites, but also  simultaneously get the sense of the people's patriotism, where they have been, where they are, and where they are going. Such was was my vision concerning Christians and their kingdom.

I could now not only see the kingdom, but I  could touch it, walk in it, walk with it, fight in it, fight for it, love it, and love for it.


After " I saw" the kingdom, I was not afraid of anything spiritual. I was grounded so to speak. So I decided to visit the worship of as many christian denominations in my area as possible. I did. I received from all.

But I was lucky in that I had a relative that was a musician at a none denominational church. The pastors were from Baptist tradition, but the church was charismatic. All denominations would attend services. Catholics, Baptist, Methodists, Salvation Army, etc and others were all represented.

And from that experience this is what I learned. The Holy Spirit will come to any christian, Jesus will come into their hearts in a personal way if one is able to get themselves where the Holy Spirit is going to minister to people. And it does not depend on the Pastors! It depends of the faith of each individual in  the congregation. The Holy Spirit will make people right emotionally. And these experiences ( they can manifest in many different ways for the intellectual to the sensual) of the Devine are subjective, but perhaps because our needs and talents are all different.

Now in other to have been able "to see" in a church setting, I had to feel at ease with myself and others. I was comfortable with people in a charismatic church, with hundreds of ways of praying. Sometimes I felt I had to elbow my spiritual self to be at these services, but in the end...my spirit got strong and robust. And I have "seen"again and again since then.

Now I have given you three ways "to see". I have shown how prayer will get you to "see". I have shown you how scripture, studied and shared with people who are baptized in the name of Christ, can get you to "see". And lastly I showed you how attending worship, especially where it is reported that the Holy Spirit is actively ministering to individuals, can provide you to "see".


So what ever you've been doing obviously has not been working. Stop doing it! Now start praying. Find out about the kingdom of God, as per Christianity. Attend mainline services that might seem "eccentric" and uncomfortable for you. Talk to individuals and groups in congregations face to face.  Take responsibility for you spirituality like it was you bank account or equal to the responsibility you have to your spouse.  If a pastor or a professional  asks you " Are you born again? " Don't be afraid to say, " I don't know." or " I'm not sure."  If it is the case. Be honest with yourself, and with others.  You will "see".


----------



## StriperAddict

*- awareness indeed*

That was a wonderful blessing gordon, thank you.


----------



## HawgJawl

How do you interpret this scripture:

Hebrews 6:4-8
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.


----------



## gordon 2

HawgJawl said:


> How do you interpret this scripture:
> 
> Hebrews 6:4-8
> For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.



Paul is addressing ( juwish) Christians who understand and are aware of what the gospel is, but still  might want to return to Judaism. The are willfully denying Christ and the Good News. It does not pertain to individuals who have been slack regards their faith or those that just were backsliding. It is a warning to people who have received a new life, who decide that the old one serves them better for now!

There is a cult active today that uses this bit of scripture to lure christians into thinking that because they have wilfully sinned, yet knowing the gospel and Jesus, they are destined to perdition.

 After they break down their victims in this way, they built them back up by saying that they never new Jesus and the Gospel and that therefore their sins were not willful. And of course they have the dibs on real Christianity--all other Christian communities ( mainline) are cults! 

So be careful about people who say they are Christians yet have doctrines which do not fit with anything mainline Christian. Ask these people if Jesus is God. You'll be surprised by the answers which disqualifies them as Christians. Also these people use the Old Testament ( Genesis to Deuteronomy) to back their views... and the New Testament regards the Holy Spirit with an eye to befuddle victims. Be careful. They are known by the name Willful Cult, which is not what they call themselves.  They are are a "rainmaker" (money making) cult and running sort of pyramid scheme. 

 However and for example, in mainline christianity repentance is available to Christians even if they willfully sin.  It is the flip side of faith if faith was a coin. The same coin really. So even Christians who sin willfully, but are sincere to repent, to change!--- than their sins are not accounted against them.


The scripture you post refers to people who know and believe in God, in Jesus,  who willfully couldn't care less. Their sin is to mock the Holy Spirit. They know the way, and the effort of the Holy Spirit to guide them, but purposely get out of it, for worldly motives... and know they are doing this.  I think this is what Paul is reffering to here. The people Paul is talking to received the Holy Spirit, but some might what to return to a spirituality where being in the Spirit is hit or miss. Dumb!

To backslide is not to  crucify our Lord.   Luke 15:7

 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

There is no reason why a christian can't return back home except as Paul says... which is to be of the folk who willfully would crucify Jesus again and yet know exactly who he is!

Just curious how did you come up with that single scripture ( Hebrews 6:4-8) with only your question added to your post? Motive? Note, the Wilfull cult folk would love you banner "He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors." This is the view they have of their new recruits! Like all cults they want"nothing" inside a person and then they can control them.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Paul is addressing ( jewish) Christians who understand and are aware of what the gospel is, but still  might want to return to Judaism. The are willfully denying Christ and the Good News. It does not pertain to individuals who have been slack regards their faith or those that just were backsliding. It is a warning to people who have received a new life, who decide that the old one serves them better for now!
> 
> There is a cult active today that uses this bit of scripture to lure christians into thinking that because they have wilfully sinned, yet knowing the gospel and Jesus, they are destined to perdition.
> 
> After they break down their victims in this way, they built them back up by saying that they never new Jesus and the Gospel and that therefore their sins were not wilful. And of course they have the dibs on real Christianity.
> 
> So be careful about people who say they are Christians yet have doctrines which do not fit with anything mainline Christian. Ask these people if Jesus is God. You'll be surprized by the answers which disqualifies them as Christians. Also these people use the Old Testament to back their views... and the New Testament regards the Holy Spirit with an eye to befuddle victims. Be careful.
> 
> For example, in mainline christianity repentance is available to Christians even if they willfully sin.  It is the flip side of faith if faith was a coin. The same coin really. So even Christians who sin willfully, but are sincere to repent, to change!--- than their sins are not accounted against them.
> 
> 
> The scripture you post refers to people who know and believe in God, in Jesus,  who willfully couldn't care less. They know the way, but purposely get out of it, for worldly motives... and know they are doing this.  I think this is what Paul is refering to here.



These Jews that this scripture pertains to, what of their once held salvation? Will or did they get to return to the flock?


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> These Jews that this scripture pertains to, what of their once held salvation? Will or did they get to return to the flock?



I don't think so... would have to re-read Hebrews... At least it does not say so... If I recall.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> I don't think so... would have to re-read Hebrews... At least it does not say so... If I recall.



Proof text for losing salvation? We're not very convincing to HawgJawl. HawgJawl didn't backslide, he returned to not believing. His land once again bore thorns & thistles.
He now is wanting to return. I believe that doesn't mean what we think it means. I believe God will welcome HawgJawl back.


----------



## hobbs27

Its not about losing salvation or it would contradict ( John 10:28-29) ( Romans 8:28-30)" perseverance of the saints" at Romans 8:30)

 What it is about, I choose to take the fifth.


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Proof text for losing salvation? We're not very convincing to HawgJawl. HawgJawl didn't backslide, he returned to not believing. His land once again bore thorns & thistles.
> He now is wanting to return. I believe that doesn't mean what we think it means. I believe God will welcome HawgJawl back.



How do you know these things? Not believing, He says he believes in God. How do you know we are not convincing?  How to you know his land bore thorns and thistles? Not ours?  How do you know he wants to return? I'm not convinced...

Whatever recommendation we come up with we are given a bit of eye popping scripture as a response, as if to test patience and affection, belief and doctrine. Again I'm not convinced...  Some today are not ashamed to put out their finer gospels than the one ministered to us by the apostles. They are patient not because of the love in their hearts, but because they need only eat quarterly.

My brother says he believes in God, is not witness to any sign from God and yet claims he let go his faith. Puzzling?


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Its not about losing salvation or it would contradict ( John 10:28-29) ( Romans 8:28-30)" perseverance of the saints" at Romans 8:30)
> 
> What it is about, I choose to take the fifth.





Quote{ What it is about, I choose to take the fifth. } end quote.  Now this is funny! 


When I was a kid we use to burn fields, for the potash from the ashes was good for berries. All the village kids would turn up to help put it out, when the fire reached the margins of the fields and the edge of the forest. Then with the invention of TV fewer kids would show up. A few woodlots were burned and a few houses at the edges of meadows and then we stopped the practice.

Are we enough to beat a fire down and due to much distraction, due to our many and differing interests and let an enterprising stranger sell us ash? Or even better berries, big fat ones? And in the process fatten his bank account to where he will buy our fields? Hum?

My view of Hebrews 6 4-8 is the mainline one. I spin it not purposely with our doctrines, nor do I have some unique insight due  to being especially favored. I have tried to view 6-8 in context, not in doctrines. Hopefully.

Paul is addressing the greater glory of Jesus compared to Moses. Says do not harden your hearts. One needs faith to see the promised land as per Christianity. 6 4-8 is about faith issues and how through faith we "persevere to inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6 12)


----------



## Israel

Some say grace is circumscribed by the writings.
Another says something else.


----------



## gordon 2

Israel said:


> Some say grace is circumscribed by the writings.
> Another says something else.



Yea.   Listen, do you think being born again and having received the Holy Spirit is the same as being saved? What does Paul mean by "on the way to salvation" in this:  Hebrews (6-9) But you, my dear people, in spite of what we have just said, we are sure you are in a better state and on the way to salvation. Remember, he is talking to a Hebrew-Christian community. I presume that these people were baptized ( born again) and had received ( laying on of hands) the Holy Spirit. ??? Are we saved by faith or by Grace according to you? Is there a difference?

I mean the first Adam was saved and living intimately with the Holy Spirit and he muddled it up. In my case, Jesus and scripture tell me I require both Grace and faith for salvation. The field is prepared, now it is up to me.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

On Israel's post, this thought came to me. Jesus said,

John 5
39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Life is in Christ Jesus not in written words.  Come to Him!  Find Life in Him! Find all you need in Him!  That is the only way you will ever find life.  In Christ!


----------



## gordon 2

formula1 said:


> On Israel's post, this thought came to me. Jesus said,
> 
> John 5
> 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
> 
> Life is in Christ Jesus not in written words.  Come to Him!  Find Life in Him! Find all you need in Him!  That is the only way you will ever find life.  In Christ!



Beautiful connection with Isreal's spirit.  I like.

Now where is this man asking for my salve and unguarded witness or sounding if I suffer from illness and to poultice me? HawgJawl?


----------



## barryl

I got a question? (Romans-Philemon) is directly applicable to us today. Why in the world are you all constantly going to Matt.,Heb. to try to insinuate "HJ lost it" (HJ is even doing this to himself) then using "Works" to get it back? Not trying to start a racket, I am saying just get things in the right place(Dispensation). After all it is God "Dispensing" his grace to us. Eph. 3: 1-12 KJV 1611 AV


----------



## HawgJawl

gordon 2 said:


> Just curious how did you come up with that single scripture ( Hebrews 6:4-8) with only your question added to your post? Motive?



I've been doing a lot of praying and bible study.  My current situation has created concern regarding the possibility of losing my salvation.  It's not just a single scripture that has prompted this concern.

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.  On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’   And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Hebrews 6:4-8
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.  For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.  But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Ezekiel 18:24-26
But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die. “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.

2 Timothy 2:11-12
The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Hebrews 10:26-28
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

Romans 11:22
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Revelation 2:4-5
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.  Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

2 Peter 1:9-10
For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

Revelation 22:19
And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Colossians 1:21-23
And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.


----------



## hummerpoo

1Co 10:13  No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
He has promised:
Rev 3:19  Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.

Col 1:9  And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 
Col 1:10  so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. 
Col 1:11  May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, 
Col 1:12  giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 

Rom 5:3  Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 
Rom 5:4  and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 
Rom 5:5  and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. 
Rom 5:6  For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 
Rom 5:7  For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—
Rom 5:8  but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


----------



## HawgJawl

All my experience with Baptist Churches is consistent with the belief that God enters into a personal relationship with a person immediately upon their acknowledgement of their need for Jesus, confession of sin, plea for forgiveness, request for God's direction in their life, and their public profession of faith.

I've never heard a pastor at altar call indicate that this process may take months.

Scripture seems to support that this is an immediate conversion.  

Are y'all familiar with any scriptures that indicate that this may not occur immediately?


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> Scripture seems to support that this is an immediate conversion.



Conversion is immediate.  Salvation is a journey.


----------



## gemcgrew

HawgJawl said:


> All my experience with Baptist Churches is consistent with the belief that God enters into a personal relationship with a person immediately upon their acknowledgement of their need for Jesus, confession of sin, plea for forgiveness, request for God's direction in their life, and their public profession of faith.
> 
> I've never heard a pastor at altar call indicate that this process may take months.
> 
> Scripture seems to support that this is an immediate conversion.
> 
> Are y'all familiar with any scriptures that indicate that this may not occur immediately?


I think that you are confusing the evidences of conversion with conversion itself. Conversion would take place prior to the evidence.


----------



## HawgJawl

gemcgrew said:


> I think that you are confusing the evidences of conversion with conversion itself. Conversion would take place prior to the evidence.



When a person walks down the aisle and asks God to come into their life, how long should it take for that person to feel the presence of God in their life?  I always thought it should be immediate.


----------



## hobbs27

HawgJawl said:


> When a person walks down the aisle and asks God to come into their life, how long should it take for that person to feel the presence of God in their life?  I always thought it should be immediate.



12 or 13 minutes max.    Just kidding. If you walk down an aisle the answer is never. If God draws you down that aisle then the answer is probably already. It's not about you walking, you kneeling at an altar, or you praying although prayer helps. It's about being chosen and answering that call whenever and wherever it may come.
 Different people will have different experiences, it's all about that personal relationship between an individual and the Savior. 
 It might help if you quit trying to think it out, and start feeling it out.


----------



## gordon 2

Some people just don't have the right Jesus when they "walk down the isle." This is how its supposed to work...:

 John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Simply the Jesus they believeth is of their own vain imaginings. So , if you don't get in the Spirit when "walking down the isle" you either know Jesus and believeth "not really", or you think you know Jesus and the Holy Spirit better than anyone else and just for this you believeth not.

 Really I think your notion of Jesus is the issue otherwise like you think correctly the conversion is immediate. It's not about the place you walk down the isle, it's about you and your Jesus ( the one you cooked up)  or the real one. If it did not happen, you got the wrong mindset and the wrong Jesus.

Here are a few folks that do know the real Jesus if you what to check it out against yours.  Baptist and Methodist are good places to check this out in your neck of the woods I bet. ( There are others).

 If your Jesus comes from special insight gained by your reading and understanding scripture, or your personal take on ordinary denominations like no one else before you or before this time, you got the wrong Jesus and you can walk down the isle bend over backwards... nothin s'gona happen.

So before you try walking down the isle again, get fed and do it on a full stomach, ministered to by  people who are called to feed the sheep and to share the gospel , people who know Jesus... the right one.


----------



## HawgJawl

I've been praying, studying the Bible, talking with several different ministers and praying with them, and still nothing.


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> All my experience with Baptist Churches is consistent with the belief that God enters into a personal relationship with a person immediately upon their acknowledgement of their need for Jesus, confession of sin, plea for forgiveness, request for God's direction in their life, and their public profession of faith.
> 
> I've never heard a pastor at altar call indicate that this process may take months.
> 
> Scripture seems to support that this is an immediate conversion.
> 
> Are y'all familiar with any scriptures that indicate that this may not occur immediately?





centerpin fan said:


> Conversion is immediate.  Salvation is a journey.





gemcgrew said:


> I think that you are confusing the evidences of conversion with conversion itself. Conversion would take place prior to the evidence.





HawgJawl said:


> I've been praying, studying the Bible, talking with several different ministers and praying with them, and still nothing.



I missed the Sept. 23 conversation but will give some info that might apply; maybe not, you can decide.

On the evening that I was called to conversion I did not “walk the isle” (although it was a impactful as a 2x4 up side the head), but I did the next night.

I can’t recall a single event that indicated salvation until 27 years later when I was laid back in my reading chair with Outdoor Life and had a sudden urge to pull an old Bible out of the book case next to me.  I could remember from my youth that there was an OT and an NT, but not much more.  I started at Gen. 1 and read a few verses, then flipped around and landed on the Sermon on the Mount.  I read through it and remember commenting aloud “That’s a life’s worth”.

Now, I didn’t get all excited and go find a church, or start reading Scripture daily, or make changes of any kind all of sudden; no hard right turn, more like a five degree bend in the road.  About 6 years later I found a church and soon after started, not too seriously, to read Scripture as it fell in front of me.

Another 21 years and I’m sitting here telling you that there is not the slightest doubt that the 27 years between God’s calling me to salvation and the nudge I received while laid back in that chair were as perfectly planned as the recent 1 ½ years Sweatie and I struggled without a church home and the church we found 3 weeks ago.

That chair was 18 years old when it entered this story and it’s sitting about 10 feet away right now (gotta figure out how to mount a desk top on it).  At Sweetie’s insistence, it took a trip to The Salvation Army store several years ago but they refused it; God is good.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> I missed the Sept. 23 conversation but will give some info that might apply; maybe not, you can decide.
> 
> On the evening that I was called to conversion I did not “walk the isle” (although it was a impactful as a 2x4 up side the head), but I did the next night.
> 
> I can’t recall a single event that indicated salvation until 27 years later when I was laid back in my reading chair with Outdoor Life and had a sudden urge to pull an old Bible out of the book case next to me.  I could remember from my youth that there was an OT and an NT, but not much more.  I started at Gen. 1 and read a few verses, then flipped around and landed on the Sermon on the Mount.  I read through it and remember commenting aloud “That’s a life’s worth”.
> 
> Now, I didn’t get all excited and go find a church, or start reading Scripture daily, or make changes of any kind all of sudden; no hard right turn, more like a five degree bend in the road.  About 6 years later I found a church and soon after started, not too seriously, to read Scripture as it fell in front of me.
> 
> Another 21 years and I’m sitting here telling you that there is not the slightest doubt that the 27 years between God’s calling me to salvation and the nudge I received while laid back in that chair were as perfectly planned as the recent 1 ½ years Sweatie and I struggled without a church home and the church we found 3 weeks ago.
> 
> That chair was 18 years old when it entered this story and it’s sitting about 10 feet away right now (gotta figure out how to mount a desk top on it).  At Sweetie’s insistence, it took a trip to The Salvation Army store several years ago but they refused it; God is good.



Are you saying you were called 27 years ago and salvation came 27 years later when you started producing fruit?
If salvation is planned as you say it is then it's possible Hawgjawl might not be of the elect. It's also possible he will be elected later.
Either way it's the fruit of the Holy Spirit that provides an individual with the proof of salvation.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you saying you were called 27 years ago and salvation came 27 years later when you started producing fruit?
> If salvation is planned as you say it is then it's possible Hawgjawl might not be of the elect. It's also possible he will be elected later.
> Either way it's the fruit of the Holy Spirit that provides an individual with the proof of salvation.



I'm afraid you have both the timing and the inferences wrong.  I'm not sure where to start.  Maybe you could read again, and we'll try again later.


----------



## gordon 2

HawgJawl said:


> I've been praying, studying the Bible, talking with several different ministers and praying with them, and still nothing.




You forgot to listen...obviously. Or you stopped listening at some point in your life. When you listen it requires four times the energy and the concentration as in talking. 

So a minister talks to you and you talk back, and Jesus talks to you and you talk back when you should be listening, it is no wonder nothing happens,... your not listening...

You've stopped listening because willfully or unconsciously your telling God how His conversation with you should go. Keep praying, pray for ears. You probably made up you mind on what scripture says and what "several different ministers" are about and you don't agree and it has waxed your ears. Ask Jesus to put his finger in your ears, unless you've made up you mind also on who he is... and that he is just a dead prophet, yet an important one... but not God.


----------



## gemcgrew

HawgJawl said:


> I've been praying, studying the Bible, talking with several different ministers and praying with them, and still nothing.


Try it again, but this time do it all while staying at a Holiday Inn Express. 

Report back.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> I'm afraid you have both the timing and the inferences wrong.  I'm not sure where to start.  Maybe you could read again, and we'll try again later.



I apologize as I'm sure I read it wrong. I re-read your post but still don't fully understand. It's like it's somewhere between freewill and election, something I struggle with.
The 27 years between God's calling and your awakening in the Easy Chair was perfectly planned. 
When sinners receive salvation  and never repent from a life of sin, then we assume they were never saved as the proof in the form of of the Holy Spirit isn't there.

Such things and Hawgjawl's  struggle if he is sincere, have me thinking, he hasn't been called yet or at least he hasn't been awakened yet if called. I thought this was what you were presenting with your own example of salvation and God's plan.

I was just listening to Willie Nelson sing an old Gospel tune 
"Nobody's Fault but Mine"
"It's Nobody's Fault but Mine" tells of a spiritual struggle, with reading the Bible as the path to salvation, or, rather, the failure to read it leading to darnation.
Lyrics:
    I have a Bible in my home, I have a Bible in my home
    If I don't read my soul will be lost ... nobody's fault but mine.

Nobody's fault but mine
Nobody's fault but mine
If I die and my soul be lost
Nobody's fault but mine

My struggle is, if God isn't ready for Hawgjawl, then Hawgjawl will not be called. Regardless of how or when he reads the Bible and or prays. God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Do you think any of those people in the Bible whom the Potter used for vessels of destruction had a choice? Either God is in total control or he is in partial control. 

Now when I listened to this song tonight, I though about Hawgjawl. If he dies and his soul be lost, is it his fault?


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> The 27 years between God's calling and your awakening in the Easy Chair was perfectly planned.
> When sinners receive salvation  and never repent from a life of sin, then we assume they were never saved as the proof in the form of of the Holy Spirit isn't there.



Why would we assume anything concerning salvation?  Salvation is of the Lord.



> Such things and Hawgjawl's  struggle if he is sincere, have me thinking, he hasn't been called yet or at least he hasn't been awakened yet if called. I thought this was what you were presenting with your own example of salvation and God's plan.



His “struggle” indicates to me someone who is very much awake.
See post #99.

As I see it, God was preparing me for sanctification (or it was sanctification, depending on where one sets the partitions).  I guess He left me in the world to learn some stuff.  I am a slow learner.

I’ve heard many people lament over their lost time prior to conversion; sounds silly to me, God doesn’t waste anything.



> I was just listening to Willie Nelson sing an old Gospel tune
> "Nobody's Fault but Mine"
> "It's Nobody's Fault but Mine" tells of a spiritual struggle, with reading the Bible as the path to salvation, or, rather, the failure to read it leading to darnation.
> Lyrics:
> I have a Bible in my home, I have a Bible in my home
> If I don't read my soul will be lost ... nobody's fault but mine.
> 
> Nobody's fault but mine
> Nobody's fault but mine
> If I die and my soul be lost
> Nobody's fault but mine
> 
> My struggle is, if God isn't ready for Hawgjawl, then Hawgjawl will not be called.



So, does your struggle concern God, Hawg, or you?



> Regardless of how or when he reads the Bible and or prays. God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Do you think any of those people in the Bible whom the Potter used for vessels of destruction had a choice?



I think that the Bible is about God, not people.



> Either God is in total control or he is in partial control.



If God is not in total control, He is not God.



> Now when I listened to this song tonight, I though about Hawgjawl.



I have thought of Hawg many, many times in past months; I see a brother whom God is preparing for His purpose, I pray for him and rejoice with him (again, see post #99).


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Why would we assume anything concerning salvation?  Salvation is of the Lord.
> 
> His “struggle” indicates to me someone who is very much awake.
> See post #99.
> 
> As I see it, God was preparing me for sanctification (or it was sanctification, depending on where one sets the partitions).  I guess He left me in the world to learn some stuff.  I am a slow learner.
> 
> I’ve heard many people lament over their lost time prior to conversion; sounds silly to me, God doesn’t waste anything.
> 
> So, does your struggle concern God, Hawg, or you?
> 
> I think that the Bible is about God, not people.
> 
> If God is not in total control, He is not God.
> 
> I have thought of Hawg many, many times in past months; I see a brother whom God is preparing for His purpose, I pray for him and rejoice with him (again, see post #99).



My struggle is nobodies but my own just as yours or Hawgjawls. We can help others in our own struggles. Just as you said our struggles and tribulations are part of our trials. Everything that happens to us both good and bad can help us learn. 
I kinda got sidetracked away from Grace during the "will there be any homosexuals in Heaven." The reason being I was presented with the fact that homosexuals and addicts must overcome and start producing the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise they were never saved.
I'm seeing your approach as being we don't all "overcome" shortly after salvation. This journey to overcome could be classified as sanctification and might take a lifetime for some people.
Now if everything is according to God's plan and we overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit within us, then we will produce fruit when the Spirit tells us to produce fruit and we'll sing when the Spirit tells us to sing.

Please explain Hawgjawl's eyes being opened or his awakening in post #99 or did you mean #98?
I guess he is looking for some type of proof of his calling and you are saying it might take 27 years. Why would the Holy Spirit wait so long to start producing fruits?
On the "will there be any homosexuals in Heaven" many Christians used the "fruits of the Holy Spirit" as proof that these people or addicts who never overcome aren't saved.
I must say that I agree with you mainly because I haven't overcome my life of sin. I don't see my sins as being any different from the homosexuals, addicts, gamblers, adulterers, haters, etc.
If we are saved then hopefully in due time the Holy Spirit dwelling within us will produce fruits even if it does take a lifetime to manifest.

From your response in post #99:
1Co 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

I guess he provides this escape at his discretion and not ours. Perhaps he will call Hawgjawl when God get's ready. If this is true then he will offer Hawgjawl protection from death until he calls him to salvation.

So if he dies before he is called?
So if he dies before he accepts?

I guess you think he has been called but hasn't accepted?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Maybe Hawgjawl's calling has already happened and he has not been awakened enough to accept. I don't believe he is "totally depraved" and perhaps we never are. Perhaps Grace isn't irresistible and Hawg wants some type of proof. Perhaps he is asking "how do I know God is calling me?" Maybe the proof comes after accepting Jesus. Maybe it will take 10-40 years for this proof  but doesn't Hawg need to take the next step?
Isn't Hawg's salvation also dependent on his acceptance of God's grace? Doesn't that need to happen before the Holy Spirit can regenerate him?
People have these wonderful experiences of God calling them that Hawg isn't experiencing. Does he need to ask God to come into his heart or does God just overtake?
If he doesn't feel it then perhaps it's not his fault and he'll just have to continue to seek through prayer and study. Maybe he is trying to force something that isn't in God's plan. Maybe he'll have to wait on God.

May we all seek the answers we are seeking in due time and according to God's plan. He is the Potter, we are just lumps of clay.


----------



## HawgJawl

gordon 2 said:


> You've stopped listening because willfully or unconsciously your telling God how His conversation with you should go. Keep praying, pray for ears.



I'm listening.

The only preconceived notions I have for my relationship with God is that which is professed by so many other Christians, and that which I believed I had in my youth.  I'm open and receptive to whatever form God chooses when He makes His presence in my life known to me.

Whatever the problem is, no doubt it's my fault.  I would love for God to tell me that though.


----------



## gemcgrew

HawgJawl said:


> I'm listening.
> 
> The only preconceived notions I have for my relationship with God is that which is professed by so many other Christians, and that which I believed I had in my youth.  I'm open and receptive to whatever form God chooses when He makes His presence in my life known to me.


He may or may not. If He does make His presence known, you will be receptive, and this... by the power of God.


HawgJawl said:


> Whatever the problem is, no doubt it's my fault.  I would love for God to tell me that though.


He will... either in time... or outside of it.

Thanks for the update.


----------



## gordon 2

HawgJawl said:


> I'm listening.
> 
> The only preconceived notions I have for my relationship with God is that which is professed by so many other Christians, and that which I believed I had in my youth.  I'm open and receptive to whatever form God chooses when He makes His presence in my life known to me.
> 
> Whatever the problem is, no doubt it's my fault.  I would love for God to tell me that though.




Are you a Christian? Yes or no?



 Did you ever see, meet or know of someone with the presence of God in their lives from your own perception and assessment and not from the reports of "other" Christians?

John 3:5-6New International Version (NIV)

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[a] gives birth to spirit.


Now about this ministry, the prison ministry in this video, does this mean anything to you? It is a catholic ministry, but it could be any denomination.??? 



Do you see? Did you hear?

Look and listen to this witness:




Do you have anything in your emotional makeup to reference the emotions, as opposed to the ideas, this brother is singing about?
Do you get to see at bit, to understand in a peaceful and gentle way.... from listening to this???

Now about this one. Do you see God in others?:




Do you see God in others? If you do his presence is in your life. If not, that is ok for now,  there is more...  What do you say? yes or no?


And this will be the last try at the admin's patience with me... for now?:


----------



## HawgJawl

I've been earnestly praying for quite some time now for God to speak to me through the Holy Spirit and let me know of His presence in my life.

Many people have convinced me that the problem is me.  I have to be right with God before I can hear Him.  I've even been told (not on this forum) that I am of the wrong religious denomination and that God will speak to me if I join the right denomination and work to get into a position in which I am able to communicate with God.

When I read scriptures such as the following, I have a hard time interpreting them to say that the Holy Spirit only provides guidance to those who are already "right" with God.  In other words, the Holy Spirit only guides those who no longer need guidance to find salvation.  How can "seek and you shall find" only apply to those who have already found?

John 16:12-14
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Matthew 7:7, 8, & 11 states ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.  If ye then, being evil, know how to give gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?  

Luke 11:9-13
And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.  For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.  What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?  If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”


----------



## gemcgrew

HawgJawl said:


> I've been earnestly praying for quite some time now for God to speak to me through the Holy Spirit and let me know of His presence in my life.


Do you have a plan "B"? Apparently plan "A" is not working.

Thanks for the update.


----------



## barryl

I sure don't want to start another thread on "TU[L]IP". . . so lets just stay out of the flower garden. Salvation is in "The Lord Jesus Christ" not things(feelings). John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said , signifying what death he should die. John 3:14 KJV 1611 AV


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> I sure don't want to start another thread on "TU[L]IP". . . so lets just stay out of the flower garden. Salvation is in "The Lord Jesus Christ" not things(feelings). John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said , signifying what death he should die. John 3:14 KJV 1611 AV



Salvation is of the Lord. One must be born again before receiving the power to have faith and repentance.
It looks as if Hawg's dilemma is proof of this. He is blind and cannot see. It's not his fault. He tried. 
Perhaps he will see later. His eyes will be opened at a later date. If he is a future child of God then God will protect him from death until he is ready to open his eyes.
If salvation isn't things(feelings) then neither is receiving the Holy Spirit things(feelings)
If one can't feel it then how do they know they have it? What about the fruit?
Can we go on just a promise from scripture? Do we really need some feeling or fruit for assurance?
Maybe Hawg is saved and just doesn't know it. Some new Christians say they didn't feel a thing. They repented and believe Jesus died for their sins but they never felt any warm fuzzy feelings. Maybe the Holy Spirit affects each of us differently and produces fruits differently at future times.


----------



## gordon 2

Prayers to a god that is not present must be a mean cart to push or perhaps way out there. Like someone said, plan B, time for plan b.

In this case,plan A, I can only guess that the prayers are to a hand made and false god.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Plan B is to wait on God's plan A. Even we can't change plan A.
Hawg has found this out.


----------



## HawgJawl

Any thoughts on this part of my previous post?

"When I read scriptures such as the following, I have a hard time interpreting them to say that the Holy Spirit only provides guidance to those who are already 'right' with God. In other words, the Holy Spirit only guides those who no longer need guidance to find salvation. How can 'seek and you shall find' only apply to those who have already found?"


----------



## welderguy

Ephesians 1:4-5 says that His children were chosen before He even created the world.And, that they were predestinated to good works.He did all of this without our help.Being able to believe these basic truths is a gift of God called faith.Again,done by Him without our help.It's all His grace.And it's ALL for a chosen, elected, predestinated, specific number of people.If you are one of His elect,sometime in your life He will call you with His Holy Spirit.There will be a definite change that comes over you that may be hard to explain to people.But you will KNOW something has been done for you that you could not do for yourself.It's the effectual call.It may be very dramatic like Saul of Tarsus or it could have been very subtle as in the case of John the baptist who was called in his mother's womb.It's amazing.


----------



## gordon 2

HawgJawl said:


> Any thoughts on this part of my previous post?
> 
> "When I read scriptures such as the following, I have a hard time interpreting them to say that the Holy Spirit only provides guidance to those who are already 'right' with God. In other words, the Holy Spirit only guides those who no longer need guidance to find salvation. How can 'seek and you shall find' only apply to those who have already found?"




Your making headway cause your right.  And remember:

 2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth  not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 
2Jn 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not

...................................
Submit and the truth will set you free.


Any thoughts on this part or my previous posts?


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Ephesians 1:4-5 says that His children were chosen before He even created the world.And, that they were predestinated to good works.He did all of this without our help.Being able to believe these basic truths is a gift of God called faith.Again,done by Him without our help.It's all His grace.And it's ALL for a chosen, elected, predestinated, specific number of people.If you are one of His elect,sometime in your life He will call you with His Holy Spirit.There will be a definite change that comes over you that may be hard to explain to people.But you will KNOW something has been done for you that you could not do for yourself.It's the effectual call.It may be very dramatic like Saul of Tarsus or it could have been very subtle as in the case of John the baptist who was called in his mother's womb.It's amazing.



Does God protect his elected chosen few from dying a physical death before he calls with the Holy Spirit?

Could the calling be so subtle that the drunkard still struggles with drinking years after this calling?


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Does God protect his elected chosen few from dying a physical death before he calls with the Holy Spirit?
> 
> Could the calling be so subtle that the drunkard still struggles with drinking years after this calling?



He knows the number of our days.He knows everything.Nothing takes Him by surprise.Look at the thief on the cross.In the very last hour of his life, he went from railing on Jesus to asking Him to remember him when He entered His kingdom.Jesus told him"This day shalt thou be with me in paradise" I love that!

As far as the drunkard goes.Even after he is called by the Holy Spirit, he will still struggle with sin.But he will hate his sin and have remorse for it and be convicted that he should try with God's help to overcome his addiction.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> He knows the number of our days.He knows everything.Nothing takes Him by surprise.Look at the thief on the cross.In the very last hour of his life, he went from railing on Jesus to asking Him to remember him when He entered His kingdom.Jesus told him"This day shalt thou be with me in paradise" I love that!
> 
> As far as the drunkard goes.Even after he is called by the Holy Spirit, he will still struggle with sin.But he will hate his sin and have remorse for it and be convicted that he should try with God's help to overcome his addiction.



So another way of saying "salvation is of the Lord" is "election?"
In this thread many are trying to lead Hawg Jawl to salvation by telling him to seek and he will find.
I believe he has found his answer.


----------



## HawgJawl

Artfuldodger said:


> So another way of saying "salvation is of the Lord" is "election?"
> In this thread many are trying to lead Hawg Jawl to salvation by telling him to seek and he will find.
> I believe he has found his answer.



So, should I just accept that God does not want me and that I cannot be saved?


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> So, should I just accept that God does not want me and that I cannot be saved?



Yes, God already knows the future. Just sit back and wait for that definite change that comes over you that may be hard to explain to people.

Now just to play it safe, I would at least let God know I'm interested in his Holy Spirit. That you are eagerly awaiting him to "turn you on."
If election is part of your future, you'll have protection from a physical death until the time comes.


----------



## gordon 2

HawgJawl said:


> I'm listening.
> 
> The only preconceived notions I have for my relationship with God is that which is professed by so many other Christians, and that which I believed I had in my youth.  I'm open and receptive to whatever form God chooses when He makes His presence in my life known to me.
> 
> Whatever the problem is, no doubt it's my fault.  I would love for God to tell me that though.



Ok let's start again and here.

 Hebrews 10: 26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

 What are you thoughts on this this bit of scripture? Depending on how you read this you are in one or the other covenant--even if you were baptized, even if you lost your faith once, even if you believe in God now.

Sin. What is the sin talked about here? Is it personal sin or is it covenant sin ( as in the different effects of sin in both covenants) ?

If you believe that it is personal sin, then your are still in the old covenant. You might know a little about Christ, as when you were a babe in the church, but your spiritual mind in still to milk.)


Word of truth. What is "the word of truth" according to you right now? Is the word of truth mostly from the old Covenant for you? Or for Christ''s ministry of spiritually reconciling man ( for the fall) to God? What drives you to seek a relationship with God, fear or his love?

Is  the "word of truth" now mostly from  a  New Covenant perspective? Do you understand and know that Christ Jesus is God? Do you understand the economy of salvation ( christian perspective) to some degree? What was man saved from via the cross? What is reconciliation?




Fiery indignation. What is fiery indignation say as opposed to the baptism of fire? Do you know this? If you don't you are probably still consuming spiritual food that is  minced and diced. 


Now if you are even bothering to read what I have to say, ( which I somehow doubt at this point) let alone give them thought--- what I say must be hard to assimilate!

I'm betting you are a mature man and that you admit that at one time in your life you "lost your faith", ( which might be true, but I doubt). 

I think you just slacked from the church which is the case for many of you generation. I'm also suggesting that you most likely exchanged the teachings of the church for New Age  "human potential training" of some sort ( knowingly or unknowingly) and possibly you are mostly inhabited by what was formed by it in you.

So this is it. By your own statements you say you are not mature in the faith and you never were!

Now this is hard to hear and understand for a grown man who has managed well the responsibilities you have had. In spiritual matters you have done poorly-- by your own words ( admission).  " I lost the faith." you admit this. You want to return to your spiritual station when you had not lost it. You say this.

So this is it. You are a child still in the faith, and strangely you what to go back to that childhood and that faith and start all over again--- but you what an immediate ( fast) and mature relationship with God. You want an off the shelf relationship with God,-- a fast food feast.

So the problem is indeed your fault. You say this, and I'm thinking you say what you mean and you mean what you say. Unless you are a player.

 You want salvation without the cross most likely. Many do. You know about the cross, but you don't what to believe. You want the instructions of the church to save you, but not the enterprise of the cross forming a new relationship with God.

 Get off of it. Go back to where you were before you "Lost your faith" and heed to the ministry of the church not as a slave to the church ---but as a slave to God through Jesus.

------------------------

Now if you lied about loosing your faith, or anything else, then repent...turn the page and let the fire of you baptism through the Holy Spirit consume the impediments that hold you back.

 If you lied and do not what to repent and if you know of God's chosen people and how He sent them a savior and you still what to live in the old mosaic covenant ( whatever you make of it) then you are left to His "fiery indignation. "

And this is it between you and me: You are not cursed my friend, you are just a child spiritually in a man's body. I know it is hard to understand this. ( It is so hard that you dismissed me a long time ago.  )  Nevertheless, I expect to see you in heaven.  Peace.


----------



## welderguy

Wow.this reminds me of Job and his three miserable comforters.....Or the blind man leading the other blind man and both falling headlong into the ditch.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Wow.this reminds me of Job and his three miserable comforters.....Or the blind man leading the other blind man and both falling headlong into the ditch.



How so?  I suspect a man is insincere and is mocking God, and another is determined to show patience and Christian love.


----------



## welderguy

Perhaps I misinterpreted and spoke in haste.Forgive me brothers.


----------

