# Sabbath



## Skyking

Hope all are having a restful Sabbath


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## Artfuldodger

Not me i'm using the "ox is  in the ditch" loophole. I do plan on napping when I get him out!


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## centerpin fan

I'm having a work-filled Saturday.


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## hobbs27

Dude, it's saturday! It's work, work, work, shopping day, and spend time with family going out to eat.Sunday is the day of rest (The Lords Day) for Christians.


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## Lowjack

Shame shame shame , I hope you all can find a loop hole come Judgement day.Very Foolish to mock one Of G-d's commandments if you ask me.


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## Ronnie T

Does that pertain to we Gentile Christians?
.


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## Artfuldodger

Lowjack said:


> Shame shame shame , I hope you all can find a loop hole come Judgement day.Very Foolish to mock one Of G-d's commandments if you ask me.



Do most Jewish Synagogues have services on the Sabbath?
Seems like I remember something about not making the Rabbi work on the Sabbath. Maybe preaching isn't the same.
I also read that Synagogues have more service during the week and you're not expected to be there every time the doors are open like some Protestant Churches.

I was reading about Kosher Delis that are open on Saturday. A place can’t be certified Kosher if it is open on the Sabbath, plain and simple.
would you agree?

If Christians consider Sunday the Sabbath, why go eat and to movies after Church? Even if considered resting for you, you are making other people work and doing worldly things. I'm better at napping than meditating. My mind wanders away too easily. 

 Last question, is keeping this command different from any other command? 
If one is to keep the Sabbath day as law then they are under the obligation to also observe the Sabbath year Lev.25:17. The land is to be tilled for six years and the seventh year is the Sabbath year. Vs. 8-24 Israel is instructed to number seven times seven Sabbath years (49) and the following year is the Jubilee (50th year)  which would be observed by no sowing or reaping. All slaves were to be released, and the land they purchased is to be returned to the original owner. All the debts were to be forgiven. For those who want to make the Sabbath day mandatory let them abide by the law and return the land they bought and forget all their debtors.


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## Lowjack

Ronnie T said:


> Does that pertain to we Gentile Christians?
> .



To anybody that mocks G-d's Laws.
You all should know better, Or is Believing in Christ a license to Mock the Spirit of God who is the Spirit of the Law ?


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## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> Do most Jewish Synagogues have services on the Sabbath?
> Seems like I remember something about not making the Rabbi work on the Sabbath. Maybe preaching isn't the same.
> I also read that Synagogues have more service during the week and you're not expected to be there every time the doors are open like some Protestant Churches.
> 
> I was reading about Kosher Delis that are open on Saturday. A place can’t be certified Kosher if it is open on the Sabbath, plain and simple.
> would you agree?
> 
> If Christians consider Sunday the Sabbath, why go eat and to movies after Church? Even if considered resting for you, you are making other people work and doing worldly things. I'm better at napping than meditating. My mind wanders away too easily.
> 
> Last question, is keeping this command different from any other command?
> If one is to keep the Sabbath day as law then they are under the obligation to also observe the Sabbath year Lev.25:17. The land is to be tilled for six years and the seventh year is the Sabbath year. Vs. 8-24 Israel is instructed to number seven times seven Sabbath years (49) and the following year is the Jubilee (50th year)  which would be observed by no sowing or reaping. All slaves were to be released, and the land they purchased is to be returned to the original owner. All the debts were to be forgiven. For those who want to make the Sabbath day mandatory let them abide by the law and return the land they bought and forget all their debtors.



You Should be aware that The Law of The Sabbath preceeds the Law of The Torah and it is the first Law that G-d instituted for all men. Changing the Sabbath Day is the first sign of the anti Christ.I see many of you have fallen for it.

"He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time." (Daniel 7:25).


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## Artfuldodger

Lowjack said:


> You Should be aware that The Law of The Sabbath preceeds the Law of The Torah and it is the first Law that G-d instituted for all men. Changing the Sabbath Day is the first sign of the anti Christ.I see many of you have fallen for it.
> 
> "He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time." (Daniel 7:25).



I've said nothing of changing the Sabbath as I think it is Saturday. I wouldn't go as far as calling Sunday worshiping Protestants the work of the anti Christ.  What about answering my questions on resting on the Sabbath and worshiping on the day after or before?

I did respond to the post a little lightly but meant no respect. I had to work today and was the reason for my comment. Sometimes I have to work on Sundays. Sometimes I travel on Saturdays & Sundays. I don't know if working is excusable or not. I could refuse and get fired and see what course God will take for me.
I would administer help to the sick on the Sabbath and I work in a hospital. Jesus helped people on the Sabbath.
I do feel maybe we should cut back on our Sabbath worldly doings. Nascar, ball games, and hunting. We weren't allowed to hunt & fish on Sunday when I was growing up.


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## Ronnie T

Lowjack said:


> To anybody that mocks G-d's Laws.
> You all should know better, Or is Believing in Christ a license to Mock the Spirit of God who is the Spirit of the Law ?



Listen brother, I haven't mocked God's laws.
But I did ask you a question!!!!!!

Didn't you once say, on this forum, that the 10 commandments were for Israel, and not for anyone outside of Israel????????

Yes you did!


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## hobbs27

Lowjack said:


> Shame shame shame , I hope you all can find a loop hole come Judgement day.Very Foolish to mock one Of G-d's commandments if you ask me.




Colossians 2 

King James Version (KJV)


2 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

You were saying?


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## centerpin fan

Gee, I thought this thread was just a lame attempt at:


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## gemcgrew

Skyking said:


> Hope all are having a restful Sabbath


I do not find rest in any one day of the week. I do find rest in Christ my Sabbath.


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## Artfuldodger

Lowjack said:


> You Should be aware that The Law of The Sabbath preceeds the Law of The Torah and it is the first Law that G-d instituted for all men. Changing the Sabbath Day is the first sign of the anti Christ.I see many of you have fallen for it.



What is the evidence of anyone keeping the Sabbath before the Ten Commandments? 
No one prior to the Exodus from Egypt (Ex 16) even knew about the Sabbath law: Ezek 20:10-12 "So I took them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 "And I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live. 12 "And also I gave them My Sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. 13 "But the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness. They did not walk in My statutes, and they rejected My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; and My Sabbaths they greatly profaned."


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## Artfuldodger

I found this link that covers some of the feelings & beliefs already mentioned:
fulfill the law (Romans 8:4) and keep a perpetual Sabbath (Hebrews 4:3-4, 9-10).
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)
let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths. (Colossians 2:16)

http://www.atruechurch.info/sabbath.html


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## Lowjack

Ronnie T said:


> Listen brother, I haven't mocked God's laws.
> But I did ask you a question!!!!!!
> 
> Didn't you once say, on this forum, that the 10 commandments were for Israel, and not for anyone outside of Israel????????
> 
> Yes you did!



I said the Torah was For Israel 313 Commandments , most can only be kept in Israel in the Land. The 10 Commandments are Universal AKA  as the Noachide laws.

And to answer the other Question about Services , no there isn't any service during the Sabbath in Synagogues , that is teh period between sundown(Friday) and Sundown(Sunday) after sundown there could be services that is still Saturday , but not during the sabbath hours.


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## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> I found this link that covers some of the feelings & beliefs already mentioned:
> fulfill the law (Romans 8:4) and keep a perpetual Sabbath (Hebrews 4:3-4, 9-10).
> Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)
> let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths. (Colossians 2:16)
> 
> http://www.atruechurch.info/sabbath.html



I'm not a Pauline Christian I'm a Messianic Christian, Don't care what paul or Bubba says , I care what Christ said, "Anyone who does not keep the law or teaches others not to keep it , will be very small in the Kingdom of Heaven"Yeshua.

" I have not come to end the law ,I have come to fullfill it"
Yeshua the Christ.

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished" Yeshua The Christ.


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## Ronnie T

And fulfill it He did.
.


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## dawg2

Interesting...


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## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> And fulfill it He did.
> .


AMEN, Ronnie I agree with you. How about that!! Mr LJack ought to study the book of Galations!!!!!!


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## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> What is the evidence of anyone keeping the Sabbath before the Ten Commandments?
> No one prior to the Exodus from Egypt (Ex 16) even knew about the Sabbath law: Ezek 20:10-12 "So I took them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 "And I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live. 12 "And also I gave them My Sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. 13 "But the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness. They did not walk in My statutes, and they rejected My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; and My Sabbaths they greatly profaned."



By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.Gen 2;2


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## Lowjack

barryl said:


> AMEN, Ronnie I agree with you. How about that!! Mr LJack ought to study the book of Galations!!!!!!



Not Really I don't belong to the Church of Galations or galatians , I will Follow yeshua's word which is G-d's word in tehe flesh , I will not Follow the words of any preacher, whether he claims to be an apostle or not.
The Apostles who walked and lived with Christ did not teach any of this stuff.


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## gemcgrew

Lowjack said:


> Not Really I don't belong to the Church of Galations or galatians , I will Follow yeshua's word which is G-d's word in tehe flesh , I will not Follow the words of any preacher, whether he claims to be an apostle or not.
> The Apostles who walked and lived with Christ did not teach any of this stuff.


Who needs any of that "stuff" when we rely on our ethnicity?


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Who needs any of that "stuff" when we rely on our ethnicity?



Or our "election!"


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> AMEN, Ronnie I agree with you. How about that!! Mr LJack ought to study the book of Galations!!!!!!



You do realize Paul wrote Galatians. I'm assuming that's why you said that though.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Or our "election!"


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## Artfuldodger

Lowjack said:


> By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.Gen 2;2



God rested on the seventh day. True but where or when did he command us to rest?


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Or our "election!"



Election is unto salvation. It is not based on ethnicity.


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## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> You do realize Paul wrote Galatians. I'm assuming that's why you said that though.


No, not really. My meaning is Mixing Law and Grace.No No:


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## Artfuldodger

I'm always amazed at the various verses one can find in the Bible.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.


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## Ronnie T

And Peter carried the Gospel to the first Gentile (Cornelius).
.


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## Artfuldodger

I'm going to put my trust in Jesus! Then I want have to worry about "man." The only problem is, How do I know which "Man" is inspired to tell me what Jesus said? 
I believe that is where the Holy Spirit comes into play.


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## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm going to put my trust in Jesus! Then I want have to worry about "man." The only problem is, How do I know which "Man" is inspired to tell me what Jesus said?
> I believe that is where the Holy Spirit comes into play.


Good Deal A.D. The context of 2 Peter Ch. 2 especially verses 20-21 and 2 Tim. 3 :14-17 KJV AV


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Good Deal A.D. The context of 2 Peter Ch. 2 especially verses 20-21 and 2 Tim. 3 :14-17 KJV AV



In 2 Peter 2:20, what does that mean to you, that they are worse off than the beginning? How could they be worse off? I mean what's worse than he!!?

2 Peter 2:20-21 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.(KJV)


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## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> In 2 Peter 2:20, what does that mean to you, that they are worse off than the beginning? How could they be worse off? I mean what's worse than he!!?
> 
> 2 Peter 2:20-21 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.(KJV)


OOPS!!!!!! 2Peter Ch. 1:20-21 Where's big brother when you need him!!


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## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> OOPS!!!!!! 2Peter Ch. 1:20-21 Where's big brother when you need him!!



I was gonna let that one slide.  Just don't let it happen again.


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> OOPS!!!!!! 2Peter Ch. 1:20-21 Where's big brother when you need him!!



Understood, that is more appropriate.
(I thought Ronnie was Big Brother!)


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## Ronnie T

I'm little hank.
.


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## Lowjack

There is also evidence that the early disciples kept the Sabbath on the true day: 

"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;.therefore the Christians for a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." The Whole Works of Jeremey Taylor, Vol. IX, p416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol.XII, p.416) 

"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day..It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival...Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship [Yahushua], the [Master] of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." Antiquities of the Christian Church, Vol. II, Book XX, chap. 3, Sec. 1, 66.1137, 1138 

"Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does,' " Heylyn, The History of the Sabbath, 1613 

Constantine later enforced keeping a Sabbath on the first day of the week, which he calls "the venerable day of the sun." Venerable means 'commanding respect'.

The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is: 

"One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost." 

This doesn't even really sound like Yahweh's Sabbath which forbids any kind of work at all on His day!

Later, those who observed the Sabbath were persecuted and killed by the Catholic church. When the Jesuit St. Francis Xavier arrived in India he immediately requested to the pope to set up the Inquisition there.

"The Jewish wickedness" of which Xavier complained was evidently the Sabbath-keeping among those native Christians as we shall see in our next quotation. When one of these Sabbath-keeping Christians was taken by the Inquisition he was accused of having *Judaized*; which means having conformed to the ceremonies of the Mosaic Law; such as not eating pork, hare, fish without scales, of having attended the solemnization of the Sabbath." Account of the Inquisition at Goa, Dellon, p.56. London, 1815 

"Of an hundred persons condemned to be burnt as Jews, there are scarcely four who profess that faith at their death; the rest exclaiming and protesting to their last gasp that they are Christians, and have been so during their whole lives." Ibid p.64 

Today, some of the leading Baptists even have admitted that the Sunday Sabbath isn't in the scriptures: 

"There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not on Sunday...It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week....where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament. Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of a sun god, when adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism!" Dr. Edward Hiscox, author of The Baptist Manual 

Amazing....


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## formula1

Glad I'm saved by grace of the Lord Jesus! No worries!


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## bigdawg25

Lowjack said:


> I'm not a Pauline Christian I'm a Messianic Christian,



Ok, just to go a bit off-topic, I have always failed to understand why messanic Judaism is often considered a branch of Christianity rather then Judaism, so can you enlighten me on that? I mean Messanic jews follow the rules, read bible in hebrew and do things which seems more close to Judaism then Christianity atleast to a layman like me.

and secondly, if you reject being a "pauline christian" then wont you be rejecting most of the current knowledge abt christian church and theology? I am sure you realize how extensive role Paul the apostle has played and how integral his writings have been.


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## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> Understood, that is more appropriate.
> (I thought Ronnie was Big Brother!)


He is, he's Big Brother little Hank Them two are in cahoots, he he!!!


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## gemcgrew

bigdawg25 said:


> Ok, just to go a bit off-topic, I have always failed to understand why messanic Judaism is often considered a branch of Christianity rather then Judaism, so can you enlighten me on that? I mean Messanic jews follow the rules, read bible in hebrew and do things which seems more close to Judaism then Christianity atleast to a layman like me.


It is an attempt to assert a place for culture and to exert control over practice and doctrine.


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## Lowjack

bigdawg25 said:


> Ok, just to go a bit off-topic, I have always failed to understand why messanic Judaism is often considered a branch of Christianity rather then Judaism, so can you enlighten me on that? I mean Messanic jews follow the rules, read bible in hebrew and do things which seems more close to Judaism then Christianity atleast to a layman like me.
> 
> and secondly, if you reject being a "pauline christian" then wont you be rejecting most of the current knowledge abt christian church and theology? I am sure you realize how extensive role Paul the apostle has played and how integral his writings have been.



Paul had an extensive Role in a branch called Christianity , but anything that Paul said which goes against what the Messiah said then has to be taken for what is worth and has to be really examined if Paul even said it, Paul Said so many contradictory things , That Even Peter said "they were hard to understand"I look at Paul as a Preacher and the teacher of those Churches he founded like any Preacher today like Benny Hinn ,Etc etc. They have good teachings and then they have their moments , Paul even called the apostles who walked with Christ "False Apostles" So he will receive his reward according to what he said and did like everybody else.
For many Paul is their excuse to do sin and still be saved , maybe he didn't mean it that way , but it has being taken as such.
I Follow what the Messiah taught which is found in Judaism , forgiveness of sin through the blood ,rehabilitation of the soul , doing Mitzvots to all manking (Doing Good)Obeying G-d's precepts, etc etc.
When The Church began it was not called Christianity it was called "The Way" They kept all the commandments and Jewish Holidays and preached the Messiah had come, die and resurrected , later they were called "Christian"which in Latin is a derragotary title."Cristi"=Messiah ,"Anus" you know what that means."Cristianus"The Followers accepted the new title and went on. Yeshua did not intent to create a new Religion outside Judaism , he intended to elevate Judaism to believe that the Messiah had come and forgave all sins through his sacrifice , the Idea of today's Christianity comes from the Money Hungry Romans , who have constructed a new religion from the roots of Judaism , but today even the roots are gone and we have a religion ran by mafiosos , if you don't believe it just read the news about the Vatican and the Pope and the Corruption Of Homosexuality and money laundering goings on that have cause this pope to resign , and some Evangelical churches are following these steps.


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## Ronnie T

Lowjack, you sound like so many of the Jews who Jesus and the apostles spoke against.
.


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## Lowjack

Ronnie T said:


> Lowjack, you sound like so many of the Jews who Jesus and the apostles spoke against.
> .



Show me


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## bigdawg25

Lowjack said:


> Paul had an extensive Role in a branch called Christianity , but anything that Paul said which goes against what the Messiah said then has to be taken for what is worth and has to be really examined if Paul even said it, Paul Said so many contradictory things , That Even Peter said "they were hard to understand"I look at Paul as a Preacher and the teacher of those Churches he founded like any Preacher today like Benny Hinn ,Etc etc. They have good teachings and then they have their moments , Paul even called the apostles who walked with Christ "False Apostles" So he will receive his reward according to what he said and did like everybody else.
> For many Paul is their excuse to do sin and still be saved , maybe he didn't mean it that way , but it has being taken as such.
> I Follow what the Messiah taught which is found in Judaism , forgiveness of sin through the blood ,rehabilitation of the soul , doing Mitzvots to all manking (Doing Good)Obeying G-d's precepts, etc etc.
> When The Church began it was not called Christianity it was called "The Way" They kept all the commandments and Jewish Holidays and preached the Messiah had come, die and resurrected , later they were called "Christian"which in Latin is a derragotary title."Cristi"=Messiah ,"Anus" you know what that means."Cristianus"The Followers accepted the new title and went on. Yeshua did not intent to create a new Religion outside Judaism , he intended to elevate Judaism to believe that the Messiah had come and forgave all sins through his sacrifice , the Idea of today's Christianity comes from the Money Hungry Romans , *who have constructed a new religion from the roots of Judaism* , but *today even the roots are gone* and we have a religion ran by mafiosos , if you don't believe it just *read the news about the Vatican and the Pope and the Corruption Of Homosexuality* and money laundering goings on that have cause this pope to resign , and some Evangelical churches are following these steps.



Oh I am not denying that some element of church have become corrupted and done sinful things; I totally see that and I appreciate why reformation happened. My problem is that those faults cannot be directly attributed to Paul, and, if he was around, I am sure he would reject that too.

I also see how Christianity has roots in Judaism, and I would not say that roots are gone (see OT)....what I am still confused is what is your opinion on new testament then? its still written by Christ's followers much after Christ's death; so would you be questioning that too? in other words, on a time scale where to draw the line between which of the early churches beliefs are ok by you and which arent? for eg 60,70,100, 200 yrs after Jesus the beliefs started getting corrupted in your eyes?


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## gemcgrew

Lowjack said:


> Paul had an extensive Role in a branch called Christianity , but anything that Paul said which goes against what the Messiah said then has to be taken for what is worth and has to be really examined if Paul even said it, Paul Said so many contradictory things , That Even Peter said "they were hard to understand"I look at Paul as a Preacher and the teacher of those Churches he founded like any Preacher today like Benny Hinn ,Etc etc. They have good teachings and then they have their moments , Paul even called the apostles who walked with Christ "False Apostles" So he will receive his reward according to what he said and did like everybody else.
> For many Paul is their excuse to do sin and still be saved , maybe he didn't mean it that way , but it has being taken as such.
> I Follow what the Messiah taught which is found in Judaism , forgiveness of sin through the blood ,rehabilitation of the soul , doing Mitzvots to all manking (Doing Good)Obeying G-d's precepts, etc etc.
> When The Church began it was not called Christianity it was called "The Way" They kept all the commandments and Jewish Holidays and preached the Messiah had come, die and resurrected , later they were called "Christian"which in Latin is a derragotary title."Cristi"=Messiah ,"Anus" you know what that means."Cristianus"The Followers accepted the new title and went on. Yeshua did not intent to create a new Religion outside Judaism , he intended to elevate Judaism to believe that the Messiah had come and forgave all sins through his sacrifice , the Idea of today's Christianity comes from the Money Hungry Romans , who have constructed a new religion from the roots of Judaism , but today even the roots are gone and we have a religion ran by mafiosos , if you don't believe it just read the news about the Vatican and the Pope and the Corruption Of Homosexuality and money laundering goings on that have cause this pope to resign , and some Evangelical churches are following these steps.





gemcgrew said:


> It is an attempt to assert a place for culture and to exert control over practice and doctrine.


Voila!


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## bigdawg25

Ronnie T said:


> Lowjack, you sound like so many of the Jews who Jesus and the apostles spoke against.
> .



that's what I am not understanding. All we know about Jesus was through the eyes of his followers who wrote his teachings down; so if someone is questioning those writings then what other alternate source does anyone have for that time period?


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## centerpin fan

Lowjack said:


> I look at Paul as a Preacher and the teacher of those Churches he founded like any Preacher today like Benny Hinn ,Etc etc.



Whoa, Nelly!

Did you just compare the Apostle Paul to Benny Hinn?


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## centerpin fan

I see this thread has accomplished its mission.


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## Lowjack

bigdawg25 said:


> that's what I am not understanding. All we know about Jesus was through the eyes of his followers who wrote his teachings down; so if someone is questioning those writings then what other alternate source does anyone have for that time period?



Read Acts 21 , by his action Paul seems to be saying he did not teach liberalism in Christianity,??? if so who wrote then , the law is done away with in Galatians ???


----------



## Artfuldodger

How do we have resolution between what Paul was teaching compared to what Jesus was teaching? One only needs to Google "Jesus vs Paul" to see the differences.


----------



## hobbs27

I don't need google.Jesus used Paul as a vessel.

_13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake._


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I don't need google.Jesus used Paul as a vessel.
> 
> _13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake._



Yeah, forget google. Open your bible and read how Paul describes Justification as  faith apart from works. Then read where James describes Justification as faith & works.
That is just one example. What do you do for resolution is what I'm asking?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Yeah, forget google. Open your bible and read how Paul describes Justification as  faith apart from works. Then read where James describes Justification as faith & works.
> That is just one example. What do you do for resolution is what I'm asking?



Art..What I read from James is "work "is evidence of justification, not the source of it. Am I missing something?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Art..What I read from James is "work "is evidence of justification, not the source of it. Am I missing something?



OK, that one is resolved. Let me find another difference in Paul and Jesus' teachings. I'm trying to center my gospel teaching and living on "the kingdom" instead of "justification by faith."

I believe in grace plus works so just reading a verse registers differently in my mind. It's the same as the free will believers vs elect believers. Our mindset is a certain way going into a biblical debate or bible verse reading. I'm trying to read the bible through the eyes of others. I'll try to use my third eye.
The works would definitely be the fruit of a Christian. What about the New Testament commandments? Why did Jesus give them to us if he knew it was going to be just fruit. He would not need to command us to do something we were going to perform by default. It would be a given.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Let's find resolution in this forgiveness of trespasses:
Paul says:
Eph.1
[7] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace
Rom.4
[25] who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification. 


Jesus says:
Matt.6
[14] For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 
[15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


----------



## bigdawg25

Artfuldodger said:


> How do we have resolution between what Paul was teaching compared to what Jesus was teaching? One only needs to Google "Jesus vs Paul" to see the differences.



I googled it and came to know about subtle differences in Paul's teachings and others but that is nowhere as bad or as radical to justify comparing him to Benny Hins. I'd be honest, before this thread, I didnt even know that there was even a controversy around early church figure like Paul; because if he didnt get it right, then chances are no one after him did.


----------



## Artfuldodger

bigdawg25 said:


> I googled it and came to know about subtle differences in Paul's teachings and others but that is nowhere as bad or as radical to justify comparing him to Benny Hins. I'd be honest, before this thread, I didnt even know that there was even a controversy around early church figure like Paul; because if he didnt get it right, then chances are no one after him did.



I never heard of it either. If Paul is not inspired to write what the  Holy Spirit inspired him to write, How many books  is that?
Now I can see more than subtle differences in the teachings of Jesus and his 12 disciples compared to Paul. What i'm looking for is resolution. 
At the same time, i'm leaning towards Jesus. It can't be much of a conflict if we are just now hearing about it.


----------



## Lowjack

bigdawg25 said:


> I googled it and came to know about subtle differences in Paul's teachings and others but that is nowhere as bad or as radical to justify comparing him to Benny Hins. I'd be honest, before this thread, I didnt even know that there was even a controversy around early church figure like Paul; because if he didnt get it right, then chances are no one after him did.



Acts Chapter 21 is a good start.
You see Paul while in Rome had many who helped him write the letters , some believe some letters attributed to him he didn't write but his assistants or disciples , the news got to teh apostles that Paul was teaching such things as doing away with the Law and a free for all salvation and that's where the controversy began.


----------



## bigdawg25

Artfuldodger said:


> I never heard of it either. If Paul is not inspired to write what the  Holy Spirit inspired him to write, How many books  is that?
> Now I can see more than subtle differences in the teachings of Jesus and his 12 disciples compared to Paul. What i'm looking for is resolution.
> At the same time, i'm leaning towards Jesus. *It can't be much of a conflict if we are just now hearing about it.*



Yeah, that's what my guess is too. If you believe in holy spirit, then everything they did, they did under the inspiration of holy spirit, and ignoring or dismissing some of those writings just because they appear conflicting means that you do not have complete faith in the holy spirit, and by extension, in religion itself. 

I have the liberty to pick and choose, because I am non religious, and I have my doubts with the workings of holy spirit; but I am surprised that a few devout Christians here have expressed serious doubts on pretty much everything except their own personal belief.


----------



## Lowjack

An Interesting read'
http://www.wordwiz72.com/paul.html


----------



## bigdawg25

Lowjack said:


> Acts Chapter 21 is a good start.
> You see Paul while in Rome had many who helped him write the letters , some believe some letters attributed to him he didn't write but his assistants or disciples , the news got to teh apostles that Paul was teaching such things as doing away with the Law and a free for all salvation and that's where the controversy began.



I'll read up that soon and then I will talk with one of my friends here whose knowledge on theology and early church history is exceptional.


----------



## barryl

Artfuldodger said:


> Yeah, forget google. Open your bible and read how Paul describes Justification as  faith apart from works. Then read where James describes Justification as faith & works.
> That is just one example. What do you do for resolution is what I'm asking?


Maybe this will help. The book of James is written to the 12 Tribes of Israel{Faith and Works, Tribulation} scattered abroad, James 1:1 This book is not addressed to "Christians", Jewish or Gentile. If you want to describe "scattered", John 11:51-52. I'm having a conversation with another person on another site about this very subject. Misapplication of scripture, trying to spiritualize James to the Body of Christ, although there are, at times,theological and doctrinal truths found. You might want to look a Dan.9:25-26{Daniels Seventieth Week}and Jer.30:7{Time of Jacobs Trouble} A "blanket Theory" just will not work} Paul- Born again Christians, James- Jews


----------



## Lowjack

bigdawg25 said:


> Yeah, that's what my guess is too. If you believe in holy spirit, then everything they did, they did under the inspiration of holy spirit, and ignoring or dismissing some of those writings just because they appear conflicting means that you do not have complete faith in the holy spirit, and by extension, in religion itself.
> 
> I have the liberty to pick and choose, because I am non religious, and I have my doubts with the workings of holy spirit; but I am surprised that a few devout Christians here have expressed serious doubts on pretty much everything except their own personal belief.



Not all together true I have 1000% trust on the works of the holy Spirit , But I Have 0% trust in men , apparently Jesus Knew this as well , when he said "not all who call me Lord Lord shall entered the Kingdom of God"Depart From Me I never Knew you"If you read the history of Galatians you will see that some of it was guessed as to what it said as the parchment pieces were missing , it is also guessed Paul wrote it.


----------



## Lowjack

barryl said:


> Maybe this will help. The book of James is written to the 12 Tribes of Israel{Faith and Works, Tribulation} scattered abroad, James 1:1 This book is not addressed to "Christians", Jewish or Gentile. If you want to describe "scattered", John 11:51-52. I'm having a conversation with another person on another site about this very subject. Misapplication of scripture, trying to spiritualize James to the Body of Christ, although there are, at times,theological and doctrinal truths found. You might want to look a Dan.9:25-26{Daniels Seventieth Week}and Jer.30:7{Time of Jacobs Trouble} A "blanket Theory" just will not work} Paul- Born again Christians, James- Jews



When you wrote this you did not take into account that James wrote this to JEWISH Believers in Yeshua , not to gentiles and you have not researched the two different ways of the gospel , "the Gospel of Uncircumcision"and the Gospel of the circumcision" Different approaches are needed when Preaching to different Idiocyncracies , this is where teh failure of the church to reach Jews For Messiah is based on.


----------



## hobbs27

barryl said:


> Maybe this will help. The book of James is written to the 12 Tribes of Israel{Faith and Works, Tribulation} scattered abroad, James 1:1 This book is not addressed to "Christians", Jewish or Gentile. If you want to describe "scattered", John 11:51-52. I'm having a conversation with another person on another site about this very subject. Misapplication of scripture, trying to spiritualize James to the Body of Christ, although there are, at times,theological and doctrinal truths found. You might want to look a Dan.9:25-26{Daniels Seventieth Week}and Jer.30:7{Time of Jacobs Trouble} A "blanket Theory" just will not work} Paul- Born again Christians, James- Jews



You're on to something here!


----------



## Lowjack

Skyking said:


> just curious as to how this verse fits into everyone plans for the future
> Revelation 21:12
> 
> 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:



THey will probably erase the names of the 12 tribes and substitute them with the 12 churches ? LOL


----------



## hobbs27

Skyking said:


> just curious as to how this verse fits into everyone plans for the future
> Revelation 21:12
> 
> 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:



I dont see where it fits in any of our future.


----------



## centerpin fan

Skyking said:


> So true but sad for the church or at least those that think the church is right.
> Here's a really good study for those that might be interested.
> 
> Study of Two House Restoration of Israel
> 
> by N.B. Parrish
> 
> The secret of Elohim (to be ended in the last days) is revealed in the pages of this incredible work.  This amazing 56-page study will be hard to put down once you begin reading it.  It flows logically through Scripture, showing clearly that Israel was divided into two "houses", and the vast majority of Israel don't even know that they are.  The end times -- which we are definitely seeing now -- is when Scripture indicates this monumental event will occur:  The re-gathering of Israel!  The "scattering" of Israel was intentional (Amos 9:9).  "He Who scatters Israel will gather him"  -- Jer. 31:10.  Fishermen will be sent to gather them out of the nations where they were scattered (see Jer. 16:14-21).  You will see that the "secret of Elohim" spoken of at Ephesians 3 and Revelation 10 are solved through an understanding of the Two Houses:  the House of Israel, and the House of Yahudah.  These are called "two sisters" at Jeremiah 3, but are also the "two brothers" referred to in the parable of the Prodigal Son.  One brother went to PaganLand for a few thousand years, and the other brother stayed with the Torah, in the Father's House, keeping the Covenant (the sign of which is:  Shabbat).   Read Ezekiel 37, Jeremiah 3, Amos 9:9, Revelation 10, Ephesians 3, and then Acts 15.   The Creator's Name is definitely involved in this ending of Elohim's secret, and this study deals with that issue as well.
> 
> Study of the Two House Restoration of Israel
> http://www.emetyahshua.com/uploads/...n_of_Israe1_rev_8.1_sacred_names_w-cover_.pdf



Skyking, what is your background?  Are you the forum's second Messianic Jew?  Worldwide Church of God?  Something else?


----------



## rjcruiser

dawg2 said:


> Interesting...



Yup.  Confirms a lot of prior thoughts as well. 



centerpin fan said:


> Whoa, Nelly!
> 
> Did you just compare the Apostle Paul to Benny Hinn?



Wow.  To make that correlation, either you know nothing about the apostle Paul or you know nothing about Benny Hinn.


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Maybe this will help. The book of James is written to the 12 Tribes of Israel{Faith and Works, Tribulation} scattered abroad, James 1:1 This book is not addressed to "Christians", Jewish or Gentile. If you want to describe "scattered", John 11:51-52. I'm having a conversation with another person on another site about this very subject. Misapplication of scripture, trying to spiritualize James to the Body of Christ, although there are, at times,theological and doctrinal truths found. You might want to look a Dan.9:25-26{Daniels Seventieth Week}and Jer.30:7{Time of Jacobs Trouble} A "blanket Theory" just will not work} Paul- Born again Christians, James- Jews



I've always thought it was to scattered Christian Jews.
It appears we are slowly dividing Christian Gentiles from Christian Jews. Some people say there is no difference.


----------



## centerpin fan

Lowjack said:


> Acts Chapter 21 is a good start.



Why don't we start with Acts 9 where Paul is selected by Jesus Christ Himself "to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel"?


----------



## centerpin fan

rjcruiser said:


> Wow.  To make that correlation, either you know nothing about the apostle Paul or you know nothing about Benny Hinn.



Exactly.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Acts 19:11
God did extraordinary miracles through Paul,


----------



## barryl

Lowjack said:


> When you wrote this you did not take into account that James wrote this to JEWISH Believers in Yeshua , not to gentiles and you have not researched the two different ways of the gospel , "the Gospel of Uncircumcision"and the Gospel of the circumcision" Different approaches are needed when Preaching to different Idiocyncracies , this is where teh failure of the church to reach Jews For Messiah is based on.


The book of James is addresses to the 12 Tribes "scattered".{No Christians, JEW or GENTILE} John 11:51-52.{childern of God-Jews} Galations Ch. 2:7-8,  Peter the Apostle to the Jews{Circimcision}, Rom. 11:13- Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles{Uncircumcision}, O.T. salvation{Faith and Works}, N.T. salvation{Faith plus nothing}. If I remember right, I saw on another thread where you didn't believe anything man wrote, well, I do, per 2 Peter 1:20-21


----------



## Lowjack

barryl said:


> The book of James is addresses to the 12 Tribes "scattered".{No Christians, JEW or GENTILE} John 11:51-52.{childern of God-Jews} Galations Ch. 2:7-8,  Peter the Apostle to the Jews{Circimcision}, Rom. 11:13- Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles{Uncircumcision}, O.T. salvation{Faith and Works}, N.T. salvation{Faith plus nothing}. If I remember right, I saw on another thread where you didn't believe anything man wrote, well, I do, per 2 Peter 1:20-21



Apparently Paul's teachings were at odd with Yacov (James) as Jesus also had appeared to James ??


The writer calls himself simply “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.”[Jas 1:1] Jesus had two apostles named James, but it is unlikely that either of these wrote the letter. One apostle, James, the son of Zebedee, was martyred about 44 AD.[6] This would be very early for him to have been the writer. The other apostle James, the son of Alphaeus, is not prominent in the Scriptural record, and very little is known about him.

Rather, evidence points to James the brother or half-brother of Jesus, to whom the resurrected Jesus evidently had made a special appearance, and who was prominent among the disciples.[7][8] The writer of the letter of James identifies himself as “a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,” in much the same way as did Jude, who introduced the letter of Jude by calling himself “a slave of Jesus Christ, but a brother of James.” (Jas 1:1; Jude 1) Furthermore, the salutation of James’ letter includes the term “Greetings!” in the same way as did the letter concerning circumcision that was sent to the congregations. In this latter instance it was apparently Jesus’ brother James who spoke prominently in the assembly of “the apostles and the older men” at Jerusalem.—Adam Clarke,1821, commentary on 5:13, 22, 23.

From the middle of the 3rd century, patristic authors cited the Epistle as written by James the Just, a relation of Jesus and first Bishop of Jerusalem.[5] Not numbered among the Twelve Apostles, unless he is identified as James the Less,[9] James was nonetheless a very important figure: Paul described him as "the brother of the Lord" in Galatians 1:19 and as one of the three "pillars of the Church" in 2:9. He is traditionally considered the first of the Seventy Disciples. John Calvin and others suggested that the author was the Apostle James, son of Alphaeus, who was often identified with James the Just. If written by James the Just, the place and time of the writing of the epistle would be Jerusalem, where James resided before his martyrdom in 62.

Authorship has also occasionally been attributed to the apostle James the Great, brother of John the Evangelist and son of Zebedee The letter does mention persecutions in the present tense (2:6), and this is consistent with the persecution in Jerusalem during which James the Great was martyred (Acts 12:1). If written by James the Great, the location would have also been Jerusalem, sometime before 45AD.

The Protestant reformer Martin Luther denied it was the work of an apostle and termed it an "epistle of straw"[10] as compared to some other books in the New Testament, not least because of the conflict he thought it raised with Paul on the doctrine of justification (see below).

Many scholars consider the epistle to be written in the late 1st or early 2nd centuries, after the death of James the Just. Among the reasons for this are:[11]
 the author introduces himself merely as "a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ", without invoking any special family relationship to Jesus.
 the cultured Greek language of the Epistle, it is contended, could not have been written by a Jerusalemite Jew. This argument has lost much force as recent insight into Greek influence on Judea at the time has come to light. It is plausible that the letter in Greek to the Jewish diaspora could have been composed with a secretary, as Jerome argued. Some scholars argue for a primitive version of the letter composed by James and then later polished by another writer.[12]
 the epistle was only gradually accepted into the (non-Jewish) canon of the New Testament.
 Some see parallels between James and 1 Peter, 1 Clement, and the Shepherd of Hermas and take this to reflect the socio-economic situation Christians were dealing with in the late 1st or early 2nd century. It thus could have been written anywhere in the Empire where Christians spoke Greek. There are some scholars who argued for Syria.[12]
Wikipedia


----------



## bigdawg25

Lowjack said:


> Not all together true I have 1000% trust on the works of the holy Spirit ,* But I Have 0% trust in men* , apparently Jesus Knew this as well , when he said "not all who call me Lord Lord shall entered the Kingdom of God"Depart From Me I never Knew you"If you read the history of Galatians you will see that some of it was guessed as to what it said as the parchment pieces were missing , it is also guessed Paul wrote it.



whatever we know about religion, scripture, Jesus's story, books of old testament everything comes from other men. There is a basic "faith" that they werent lying. In absence of such absolute faith, you do not fit the general definition of being religious. Now, there is nothing wrong with that, I am one of that too; but if and when I will find absolute faith, I will not pick and choose the people and the passages which fit your own version; and I will refuse to call myself religious until I stop doing cherry-picking.


----------



## Lowjack

The Sabbath Kept From Adam To Moses ? as someone asked.
A week of seven days is frequently met with in Scripture.  In Genesis 7:4 and 8:10 and 12 we see that Noah was acquainted with a seven-day week.� Unless the Sabbath was their pivot of time, people then could not have used such a measure of days.  In fact, the marginal rendering of Genesis 7:10 is �on the seventh day,� a reference to nothing but the Sabbath.  We may be sure that Noah, a just man who walked with God (Genesis 6:9), knew about and kept God�s seventh-day Sabbath.

In Genesis 29:27-28, we read that Jacob fulfilled a week for Rachel.  The week here is not synonymous with the seven years Jacob served Laban for Rachel, nor does it mean seven years passed before Jacob married Rachel.� The language shows Jacob married Rachel one week after he had married Leah, and then he served Laban another seven years, as explained in verses 29-30.

In Genesis 50:10, we find that Joseph mourned for his father Jacob seven days, that is, one week.  So Joseph knew about the seven-day week.

Exodus 7:25 mentions a seven-day period in the time of Moses just before the Exodus. This is certainly an exact week, for we read, �seven days were fulfilled.�  In addition, Numbers 12:14-15 mentions a seven-day period following Israel�s departure from Egypt and before they arrived at Mt. Sinai.

Again, in Judges 14:10-18, we read that Samson�s marriage feast lasted for seven days, another reference to the week.

Once again, in Job 2:13, we are told that Job�s three friends sat and grieved with him for seven days and seven nights � a complete week.

So it is obvious that a seven-day week with the seventh-day Sabbath was familiar to the patriarchs.  It is as John Dudley has written: �Adam, when put in the Garden of Eden, was placed in a state of trial, and must have been subjected to the same laws, both moral and religious, as now are and ever have been obligatory on all his descendants.�9

Of course he was subject to the same laws, and so were and are his descendants.  And one of those unchanging laws is the law of the Sabbath.


----------



## Lowjack

bigdawg25 said:


> whatever we know about religion, scripture, Jesus's story, books of old testament everything comes from other men. There is a basic "faith" that they werent lying. In absence of such absolute faith, you do not fit the general definition of being religious. Now, there is nothing wrong with that, I am one of that too; but if and when I will find absolute faith, I will not pick and choose the people and the passages which fit your own version; and I will refuse to call myself religious until I stop doing cherry-picking.



What saves me ? Believing what men say or write Or believing what G-d dictated to a man about his son redeeming mankind ?
G-d doesn't call me or you to be religious but rather to believe and do what his sons do.

Anytime the Word of The Messiah is at odds with any man , I have to take the Messiah's word.


----------



## centerpin fan

Skyking said:


> lover of TRUTH and  one who reveals LIES.



It's good to know we're on the same page.


----------



## hobbs27

Skyking said:


> you don't' know how the New Jeruselm fit's into end time prophecy ?You have to understand there will be no pre trib and then that you are Israel and there are no denominational gates or gentile gates are there ?Read who enters and who remains outside.


Yeah Ive heard all the futurist rhetoric, it just don't make sense to me.I believe 98% of Revelation was fulfilled in the destruction of Israel in 70 AD.So instead of being worried or scared by all these so called end time threats that just keep getting backed up as time goes by, I just enjoy what our Lord has to offer each day in His present Kingdom, that came down from heaven.


----------



## Lowjack

hobbs27 said:


> Yeah Ive heard all the futurist rhetoric, it just don't make sense to me.I believe 98% of Revelation was fulfilled in the destruction of Israel in 70 AD.So instead of being worried or scared by all these so called end time threats that just keep getting backed up as time goes by, I just enjoy what our Lord has to offer each day in His present Kingdom, that came down from heaven.



I agree a lot of prophecies were fulfilled in 70AD , but I do believe teh Kingdom of heaven is a physical Kingdom here on earth and about to come down , many people will fall by fear of the spectacle of his Visual coming.Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."Acts 1;11


----------



## centerpin fan

Skyking said:


> lover of TRUTH and  one who reveals LIES.



Adventist?  JW?  Just come out and say it.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> I've always thought it was to scattered Christian Jews.It appears we are slowly dividing Christian Gentiles from Christian Jews. Some people say there is no difference.



That's exactly who it was written to.  That's who James says it's written to.
Don't fall for it!


----------



## bigdawg25

centerpin fan said:


> Adventist?  JW?  Just come out and say it.



Just take an educated guess Centerpin; from those couple of posts I have assumed that already . Its funny how internet forums do not represent general population very well. Political forums are full of Paulbots when in reality he never enjoyed more then 5-10% popularity; I am beginning to realize that its the same with religious forums; all the mainstream denominations are under-represented or non-existent here.


----------



## centerpin fan

bigdawg25 said:


> Just take an educated guess Centerpin; from those couple of posts I have assumed that already .



I made an educated guess after the first  post. 



bigdawg25 said:


> I am beginning to realize that its the same with religious forums; all the mainstream denominations are under-represented or non-existent here.



I dunno.  I'd say this forum is pretty representative of Georgia:  lots of Baptists, plus a few Calvinists, Catholics, and "other".


----------



## hobbs27

Skyking said:


> well ok ,It does seem pretty important to me and a few others I know , mainly so that we won't fall for the deception we're warned about.


If you are saved, and have recieved the HS, what deception could you possibly fall for?



Skyking said:


> what about the second coming ?when should we expect that ?.Why even bother warning us if was trivial matter.



From the history I have read from Josephus it was an amazing event...we weren't warned by John, the people of that time were.




Skyking said:


> When we consider that 4 out of the 7 Feast of Lev 23 have been fulfilled if we do the math that leaves the 3 fall feast and if I read correctly we had better be looking up during those times.



7 of 7 by my math.


----------



## Artfuldodger

bigdawg25 said:


> Just take an educated guess Centerpin; from those couple of posts I have assumed that already . Its funny how internet forums do not represent general population very well. Political forums are full of Paulbots when in reality he never enjoyed more then 5-10% popularity; I am beginning to realize that its the same with religious forums; all the mainstream denominations are under-represented or non-existent here.



I would have to say that is not true. You have picked a few post that have brought out the few believers who aren't in a major denomination, me included.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Skyking said:


> lover of TRUTH and  one who reveals LIES.



Nothing wrong with that. Just make sure you rightly divide it. I welcome knew believers.


----------



## Artfuldodger

bigdawg25 said:


> whatever we know about religion, scripture, Jesus's story, books of old testament everything comes from other men. There is a basic "faith" that they werent lying. In absence of such absolute faith, you do not fit the general definition of being religious. Now, there is nothing wrong with that, I am one of that too; but if and when I will find absolute faith, I will not pick and choose the people and the passages which fit your own version; and I will refuse to call myself religious until I stop doing cherry-picking.



We must depend on men. Everything we learn about God & Jesus came from men. Some were inspired by the Holy Spirit, but they were men.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I do not find rest in any one day of the week. I do find rest in Christ my Sabbath.



Amen!!!


----------



## bigdawg25

centerpin fan said:


> I dunno.  I'd say this forum is pretty representative of Georgia:  lots of Baptists, plus a few Calvinists, Catholics, and "other".



maybe I just wish that more Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, etc defend their theology here on some topics; Some of the topics here are arguing that all the "mainstream" denominations had it all wrong for past two thousand years, and even though I know quite a bit about theology, I feel that someone more devout then me can refute the arguments better and make this debate more balanced.


----------



## bigdawg25

Skyking said:


> Y*ou speak of me like a leper my friend.*
> have I spoken contrary to scripture ?
> 
> We have a jewish Messiah and our High Priest and all of the NT writers were jewish except Luke  so tell me what sort of rules will be instituted upon his return?I fail to see a Easter ham or catfish fry looming at the bridal supper.Those feast might need a second look see , just a suggestion



that was definately not my intention. What you believe in is between you and god and who am I to Judge that. If you read some of my earlier posts then you'll realize even I have issues with traditional church setup, and no, I didnt sayyour scripture was wrong, its just that the interpretation was a bit radical.


----------



## bigdawg25

Artfuldodger said:


> I would have to say that is not true. *You have picked a few post that have brought out the few believers who aren't in a major denomination, me included*.



could be, and these topics have informed me of things which I didnt know before, so I am glad of forums like these; as I said earlier, I just regret that folks from more mainstream churches are not here to defend thier theology, because that will make this debate more even, and make me learn even more.

 I feel that both you and I feel are on the same path, maybe with you closer to "faith" then I am, but nevertheless, still in the process of discovery of finer aspects of hidden theological meaning.


----------



## hobbs27

Skyking said:


> Matthew 24:24
> 
> 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
> 
> There will be a great deception and a falling away.So if the Messiah warns of it that should be good enough ,right ?



My friend, to whom was Jesus speaking? Was it not His disciples as Matthew 24:3 suggests?
Why do you think he warned them of things to come...that we would still be looking for over 2,000 years later?

He warned of what was coming some 5 to 40 years from the moment and it did.


----------



## centerpin fan

Skyking said:


> We have a jewish Messiah and our High Priest and all of the NT writers were jewish except Luke  so tell me what sort of rules will be instituted upon his return?I fail to see a Easter ham or catfish fry looming at the bridal supper.Those feast might need a second look see , just a suggestion



"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day." -- Col. 2:16


----------



## centerpin fan

bigdawg25 said:


> maybe I just wish that more Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, etc defend their theology here on some topics ...



A lot of different believers read these posts, but most of them don't jump into the discussions.  I'm not really sure why.


----------



## Ronnie T

If I had just stumbled into here and read this forum I'd probably swear that this thread proves beyond a shadow that American Christian unity of understanding and thought is..... well, it's a mess.
It's just a mess.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> If I had just stumbled into here and read this forum I'd probably swear that this thread proves beyond a shadow that American Christian unity of understanding and thought is..... well, it's a mess.
> It's just a mess.



And I would agree. I would also agree that is why believers are looking & seeking. I personally don't see the seeking as a bad thing. I do see the lack of unity as being a mess and therefore bad.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> And I would agree. I would also agree that is why believers are looking & seeking. I personally don't see the seeking as a bad thing. I do see the lack of unity as being a mess and therefore bad.



And it's not of Christ.


----------



## rjcruiser

bigdawg25 said:


> maybe I just wish that more Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, etc defend their theology here on some topics.





centerpin fan said:


> A lot of different believers read these posts, but most of them don't jump into the discussions.  I'm not really sure why.



There was a time not long ago that they did.  Then....the threads got a bit heated...the discussion moved from respectful to spiteful.  The forum was changed in format....people were banded....certain topics made off-limits...all to help bring about some civility in this forum.

I think it is because of all these things that have caused most to read with few posting.

Another thing...most of these things have already been discussed.  So those of us who've been around for a little bit don't take the effort to re-argue a point that has already been made.


----------



## centerpin fan

Skyking said:


> Study of the Two House Restoration of Israel
> http://www.emetyahshua.com/uploads/...n_of_Israe1_rev_8.1_sacred_names_w-cover_.pdf



I didn't read this one, but I did read a few other articles on that site.  Here's an interesting comment from one of them:

“If any part of the Renewed Covenant (New Testament) conflicts with Torah, it is to be discarded.”

http://www.emetyahshua.com/uploads/Thou_Shalt_Eat_Anything.pdf

That seems to be basically what Lowjack has been saying.

Here's another:

“… the Sabbath has been changed to Sunday with no scriptural support whatsoever, just the word of the Catholic Church and some long dead pope.”

http://www.emetyahshua.com/uploads/False_Shepherds.pdf

The author's just wrong there.  Sunday worship had nothing to do with the Catholic Church and the pope.


----------



## centerpin fan

rjcruiser said:


> There was a time not long ago that they did.  Then....the threads got a bit heated...the discussion moved from respectful to spiteful.



I know what you mean.  On slow days, I go back through the archives and read.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Skyking said:


> lover of TRUTH and  one who reveals LIES.



That would have come off a little better without the "reveals LIES" part of your statement. It sounds a little condenscending. Revealing the truth will take care of the LIES.


----------



## bigdawg25

rjcruiser said:


> There was a time not long ago that they did.  Then....the threads got a bit heated...the discussion moved from respectful to spiteful.  The forum was changed in format....people were banded....certain topics made off-limits...all to help bring about some civility in this forum.
> 
> I think it is because of all these things that have caused most to read with few posting.
> 
> Another thing...most of these things have already been discussed.  So those of us who've been around for a little bit don't take the effort to re-argue a point that has already been made.



All of that makes a whole lot of sense; and I totally see why those things can turn someone off. I have rarely posted it here on this sub-forum because I dont like some of the turns a religion debate can take. I just was curious about mainstream church members because I thought that maybe they see arguments made here of merit, and that's why they cant or dont have arguments to defend the current practices; I just find hard to believe that all those folks in last 2000 yrs had it all wrong.


----------



## bigdawg25

Artfuldodger said:


> And I would agree. I would also agree that is why believers are looking & seeking. I personally don't see the seeking as a bad thing. I do see the lack of unity as being a mess and therefore bad.



Yeah, I dont see this as a bad thing either. All this makes me think that the church had good reasons to emphasize both traditions and scriptures and not just sola scriptura, and by not giving scriptures to common masses, because they knew that will lead to schisms. so more unity is possible at the cost of loss of personal freedom. 

having said that, I am glad to get the right to have it and read it and decide for myself.


----------



## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> If I had just stumbled into here and read this forum I'd probably swear that this thread proves beyond a shadow that American Christian unity of understanding and thought is..... well, it's a mess.
> It's just a mess.


Hey, little Hank, who are these "selfrighteous heathens" you're talking about ? Who's saying {If you didn't get it the way I{we} got it, you ain't got it!!!!!} You don't have to come on these forums just to find  the {Gnat Straining} goin' on. The mess comes when we can't or won't believe the TRUTH !!! I think I may know where the truth is, John17:17 KJV AV


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Hey, little Hank, who are these "selfrighteous heathens" you're talking about ? Who's saying {If you didn't get it the way I{we} got it, you ain't got it!!!!!} You don't have to come on these forums just to find  the {Gnat Straining} goin' on. The mess comes when we can't or won't believe the TRUTH !!! I think I may know where the truth is, John17:17 KJV AV



I'm afraid you read more into what I said that I didn't actually say.
And it proves my point!  

I choose a verse, you choose a verse, we stand back to back and proclaim our individual verses to the world.....
We do that rather than enjoying the blessings of God's word.

Is it really that important to you that I agree with you in all things?  And if I do, what then?  When everyone begins with you on all the details, what then?

The 'what then' is where each needs to be now.

Here's another question I often ask.  "What if you're wrong?"  Then each needs to temper what's important and what really matters.
.


----------



## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> I'm afraid you read more into what I said that I didn't actually say.
> And it proves my point!
> 
> I choose a verse, you choose a verse, we stand back to back and proclaim our individual verses to the world.....
> We do that rather than enjoying the blessings of God's word.
> 
> Is it really that important to you that I agree with you in all things?  And if I do, what then?  When everyone begins with you on all the details, what then?
> 
> The 'what then' is where each needs to be now.
> 
> Here's another question I often ask.  "What if you're wrong?"  Then each needs to temper what's important and what really matters.
> .


I would say that we all have our pointing finger pointed in the wrong direction. If we don't continually "EXAMINE" ourselves, we will never come to the knowledge of the Truth. Your last question, "What if you're{bl} wrong ?" Well, Romans 3:4, God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.{Spiritual Application} That ole' two eged sword is cuttin' us all up again
 Man, I have been wantin' to use that!!


----------



## Lowjack

barryl said:


> I would say that we all have our pointing finger pointed in the wrong direction. If we don't continually "EXAMINE" ourselves, we will never come to the knowledge of the Truth. Your last question, "What if you're{bl} wrong ?" Well, Romans 3:4, God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.{Spiritual Application} That ole' two eged sword is cuttin' us all up again
> Man, I have been wantin' to use that!!



Maybe that sword is necessary to cut out the Cancer , seems of late teh Virus or cancer that enetered the church is beginning to crumble on its own , christ will heal his own body. Look at the Vatican's changes and you will see what I mean.


----------



## Artfuldodger

If i've learned something the wrong way such as a Bible story or interpreted a verse wrong, and believe me I have, I am willing to admit it and eat crow. I'm not going to continue to believe it wrong just to save face.
I can see what Ronnie is saying. If I quote a verse then you quote a verse, just to prove our belief is correct, what did we learn. It can turn from a learning situation into a I'm wrong, you are right debate. And yes there is always going to be some of that over lapping the learning situation.


----------



## mtnwoman

Lowjack said:


> By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.Gen 2;2



How do we know that was saturday though? or sunday? 

Didn't Christ do 'something' on the sabbath that was considered a sin? When I worked shifts, I didn't have a choice of working saturdays or sundays. I rested after my work week on my days off. But now I rest in Christ everyday. I do consider sunday now as a day of rest after I get dressed, drive to church, eat lunch out (usually) and go home for a nap before church again. Everyone can't do that.....God also tells us to work. So some of us have to keep the sabbath holy in our hearts, and God knows our hearts.

No hunting/fishing on the sabbath either, right?

I'm not arguing your conviction though.


----------



## Lowjack

THE Point is to seek the word , Read History learn about the Authors Of The OT and NT , don't get taken by titles such as "infallible"Holy ", Saint"those are things of men and not of G-d.
I hope I touched a nerve enough that you wish to study the word more and not to be lead like sheep by any man.


----------



## StriperAddict

mtnwoman said:


> But now I rest in Christ everyday.


 
Amen !!

Nuff said


----------



## Lowjack

mtnwoman said:


> How do we know that was saturday though? or sunday?
> 
> Didn't Christ do 'something' on the sabbath that was considered a sin? When I worked shifts, I didn't have a choice of working saturdays or sundays. I rested after my work week on my days off. But now I rest in Christ everyday. I do consider sunday now as a day of rest after I get dressed, drive to church, eat lunch out (usually) and go home for a nap before church again. Everyone can't do that.....God also tells us to work. So some of us have to keep the sabbath holy in our hearts, and God knows our hearts.
> 
> No hunting/fishing on the sabbath either, right?
> 
> I'm not arguing your conviction though.



Because the Jewish Calendar is G-d's calendar he was the one that divided times into Hours, days, weeks and seasons , so we know the first day of the week is what we call today Sunday not Monday as westerners think. As far as Jesus' teachings on the Sabbath , he was a Jew who kept the Sabbath as G-d intended not as the Rabbis directed or thought , Jesus' Knew the Law made exceptions as to life and property a man was allowed to save the life of his donkey ,Ox or other beasts of burden or the life of a fellow Human , he would then make the proper appropiation in the temple for breaking the Sabbath, Second when a man was homeless and had no way of storing food he was allowed to pick fruits or other things to sustain himself , the pharasees knew this but taught contrary to it. And NO ,I don't hunt on the Sabbath that is Friday afternoon at 12 noon which will be 7 PM in Jerusalem or sundown until Saturday afternoon at 12 Noon GA Time which is 7PM in Jerusalem that is a full Bible day.


----------



## mtnwoman

Only part of Lev, just to make a point
Leviticus 11:3-5
King James Version (KJV)

3 Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.

4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.




Acts 10:13-15
King James Version (KJV)

13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.


Peter was a Jew and he was raised under the old law, but something happened to change what was required of us and the something that changed things was Jesus Christ. Yet Peter still wanted to abide by the old convenant.

The Jews wandered the desert for 40 years (a generation) because God had to breed the slave mentallity out of them. They were free but yet wanted to return to egypt...why? Because that's all they knew. Just like Peter, even though he was free in Christ he still wanted to return to the old covenant instead of accepting the new covenant. God told him to dine with the gentiles (once considered unclean) and eat what they eat/served (once considered unclean.

Hope that makes sense...and it's just my take on it.

PS none of us eat camels that I know of, even today.


----------



## mtnwoman

Lowjack said:


> THE Point is to seek the word , Read History learn about the Authors Of The OT and NT , don't get taken by titles such as "infallible"Holy ", Saint"those are things of men and not of G-d.
> I hope I touched a nerve enough that you wish to study the word more and not to be lead like sheep by any man.



I am not lead by any man....and even though I go to church and have been to many churches and have studied under many teachers, I don't necessarily agree with or believe everything I hear....I have the Holy Spirit who convicts me of truth.

When I was growing up, everything was closed on sunday which is the Lord's day. We went to church, ate, rested and went back to church. Someone still had to drive, prepare food, comb tangles out of hair, dress the kiddies, which I still consider a type of work. I've never been able to live a day of my life without having some type of chore, sometimes just getting out of bed with a bad back has been a chore to even get to church. Yet I don't consider any of that as sinning again't God, because my belief in Christ tells me my yoke is lighter than that of the OT. I could go on and on. 

I do believe that we should keep the Lord's day holy, or the sabbath for whomever believes that, but it's impossible to do nothing at all to keep it holy. I believe it means dedicate the day to the Lord no matter what we are doing. But like I said, all of my days are dedicated to my Lord. I try to keep every day holy, not just one day a week which is/overseen by men. If you read more of leviticus most of it is about our souls/spirits and how we feel towards God rather than physical things on earth.


----------



## centerpin fan

Skyking said:


> He only said Remember one day and he only set one day apart.You can try to justify calling anyday a sabbath and scripture won;t support that.Sure you can worship any day and we all should.There are more than a weekly Sabbath by the way.There are "High Sabbaths" associated with the Feast days or appointed times.
> 
> Most importantly read how scripture explains"everlasting covenant and the sabbath"
> 
> Exodus 31:16-17
> 6 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
> 
> 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed
> 
> Hebrews 13:20
> 20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
> 
> Those words appear to me to mean FOREVER, no room for discussion .Those aren't my words you'll need to to take that up with Headquarters...



I quoted it before, but it's worth repeating:

_Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day._ - Col. 2:16


----------



## gemcgrew

Skyking said:


> He only said Remember one day and he only set one day apart.You can try to justify calling anyday a sabbath and scripture won;t support that.Sure you can worship any day and we all should.There are more than a weekly Sabbath by the way.There are "High Sabbaths" associated with the Feast days or appointed times.
> 
> Most importantly read how scripture explains"everlasting covenant and the sabbath"
> 
> Exodus 31:16-17
> 6 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
> 
> 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed
> 
> Hebrews 13:20
> 20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
> 
> Those words appear to me to mean FOREVER, no room for discussion .Those aren't my words you'll need to to take that up with Headquarters...


I did and here is the response:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


----------



## mtnwoman

Lowjack said:


> You Should be aware that The Law of The Sabbath preceeds the Law of The Torah and it is the first Law that G-d instituted for all men. Changing the Sabbath Day is the first sign of the anti Christ.I see many of you have fallen for it.
> 
> "He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time." (Daniel 7:25).



satan does change laws, ie abortion, gay marriage, no respect for parents, etc etc. God changed the old convenant into a new convenant because of Jesus Christ. Jesus himself was not regarded as the saviour by many Jews because of His teachings and Christians were killed for their beliefs, yet God said not to kill. Even so being a saint, i do believe abortion, gay marriage, and disrepecting your parents are a sin, and all the gentile christians I know also believe those things to be a sin.  We weren't grafted into the vine until Jesus came and that changed many things, including if I'm wrong about worshipping on the wrong day, I am forgiven. It's by our spirit, not by our ability to understand all scripture, that we are saved.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.



Amen!


----------



## mtnwoman

Skyking said:


> He only said Remember one day and he only set one day apart.You can try to justify calling anyday a sabbath and scripture won;t support that.Sure you can worship any day and we all should.There are more than a weekly Sabbath by the way.There are "High Sabbaths" associated with the Feast days or appointed times.
> 
> Most importantly read how scripture explains"everlasting covenant and the sabbath"
> 
> Exodus 31:16-17
> 6 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
> 
> 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed
> 
> Hebrews 13:20
> 20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
> 
> Those words appear to me to mean FOREVER, no room for discussion .Those aren't my words you'll need to to take that up with Headquarters...



But I'm not a Jew.

Christians did not exist before Christ. So Christ is my high priest and yes that will last forever.  Jews and Gentiles requirements are different. If it hadn't been for the Jews being temporarily blinded that Jesus was their saviour, Christians may have never known Christ.  So are the Jews that still do not believe and believe only in the OT living correctly? They keep the sabbath and that will get them into heaven?


----------



## Artfuldodger

I never got an answer on keeping the other Sabbaths.
If one is to keep the Sabbath day as law then they are under the obligation to also observe the Sabbath year Lev.25:17. The land is to be tilled for six years and the seventh year is the Sabbath year. Vs. 8-24 Israel is instructed to number seven times seven Sabbath years (49) and the following year is the Jubilee (50th year) which would be observed by no sowing or reaping. All slaves were to be released, and the land they purchased is to be returned to the original owner. All the debts were to be forgiven. For those who want to make the Sabbath day mandatory let them abide by the law and return the land they bought and forget all their debtors.


----------



## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> I never got an answer on keeping the other Sabbaths.
> If one is to keep the Sabbath day as law then they are under the obligation to also observe the Sabbath year Lev.25:17. The land is to be tilled for six years and the seventh year is the Sabbath year. Vs. 8-24 Israel is instructed to number seven times seven Sabbath years (49) and the following year is the Jubilee (50th year) which would be observed by no sowing or reaping. All slaves were to be released, and the land they purchased is to be returned to the original owner. All the debts were to be forgiven. For those who want to make the Sabbath day mandatory let them abide by the law and return the land they bought and forget all their debtors.


This would fall under Torah Law and it should be kept by Jews , the 10 Commandments are for everyone and should be kept by everyone who calls himself a son of G-d.

Keeping the other sabbaths will be equal to a russian keeping the 4th Of July or George Washington's birthday.


----------



## hobbs27

It is becoming more and more clear to me why God had to send his only begotten son to die for us that we may have a way.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!


----------



## GunnSmokeer

*OK with Sunday*

I'm sure that before Jesus died, (that is, before and DURING his lifetime), God wanted his followers to observe a Saturday Sabbath.  7th day of the week. The last day, after the rest of the week was spent working and doing chores.

The only question in my mind is: what is left of the 10 commandments, or all the Law of Moses, after Jesus' death and ascention to Heaven?

If the 10 commandments remain, then Saturday remains the Sabbath and Christians were wrong to come up with a new holy day just to show the world how different they were from the Jews.  Or maybe it was to appease some Sun-god worshipers.  But I don't think it was because the Lord rose from the grave on Sunday.

If the 10 commandments are out the window now, replaced by the Lord's commandments to love God and love each other, then I think not only can SUNDAY be a perfectly fine day to hold up as our Sabbath, but any other day, as long as it's one day of the week, observed faithfully and regularly but not so obsessive-compusively that we can't hold down jobs and alienate our friends and family over it.


----------



## gemcgrew

I do not rebel against the law. The law terrified my conscience and forced me to refuge. Where do we have refuge other than Christ? Christ is my Sabbath, my Rest. I don't need to keep the picture (a symbol of rest and a reminder of redemption), I have the One who is pictured!


----------



## StriperAddict

gemcgrew said:


> I do not rebel against the law. The law terrified my conscience and forced me to refuge. Where do we have refuge other than Christ? Christ is my Sabbath, my Rest. I don't need to keep the picture (a symbol of rest and a reminder of redemption), I have the One who is pictured!


 
Well said.

*Romans 7:6* 
But now we have been released from the Law, having *died* to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Romans 7:5-7 (in Context) Romans 7 (Whole Chapter)


----------



## Lowjack

GunnSmokeer said:


> I'm sure that before Jesus died, (that is, before and DURING his lifetime), God wanted his followers to observe a Saturday Sabbath.  7th day of the week. The last day, after the rest of the week was spent working and doing chores.
> 
> The only question in my mind is: what is left of the 10 commandments, or all the Law of Moses, after Jesus' death and ascention to Heaven?
> 
> If the 10 commandments remain, then Saturday remains the Sabbath and Christians were wrong to come up with a new holy day just to show the world how different they were from the Jews.  Or maybe it was to appease some Sun-god worshipers.  But I don't think it was because the Lord rose from the grave on Sunday.
> 
> If the 10 commandments are out the window now, replaced by the Lord's commandments to love God and love each other, then I think not only can SUNDAY be a perfectly fine day to hold up as our Sabbath, but any other day, as long as it's one day of the week, observed faithfully and regularly but not so obsessive-compusively that we can't hold down jobs and alienate our friends and family over it.



If The Law of God was done away with then sin would reign , The Law is what points out you and me are sinners. The 10 Commandments can be found throughout the New Testament even after The Holy Spirit Came. And the Law of God will be the one Law that will even remain after Jesus returns. The Reason that Paul says to Gather on Sunday is because Sunday is the first day of the week in which Christians could work and deal with Money , such as collecting for the saints , people today read what is convenient for them or their religion's view, Collecting monies on the Sabbath is unlawful , a pastor or Rabbi working on the Sabbath is unlawful , that is why Sunday is meeting day.Even Jesus didn't resurrect on the Sabbath.


----------



## centerpin fan

Skyking said:


> I realize that the majority here are looking through the rose colored glasses of the church and not the true words of scripture ...



The church is a divine institution.  If you insist on removing the scriptures from the church that produced them, you can be fooled into believing anything.   




Skyking said:


> When the New Covenant was written there was only the Old to use as a reference to think that Paul and the others would break Torah to do what your suggesting is crazy .



Do Gentiles have to be circumcised to be saved?


----------



## gemcgrew

Skyking said:


> I'm afraid you'll always consider believers like me to be in TOTAL error
> blessings


What do you mean by "believers like me"? What is your hope of salvation?


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> What do you mean by "believers like me"? What is your hope of salvation?



I think I know exactly what he means:

_Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” _- Acts 15:5


----------



## hobbs27

Skyking said:


> neither am I ,but is this not your Messiah?
> What rule /kingdom will he re-establish upon his return?
> I bet it won't be a ham dinner at easter or a sunday pot luck do you ?You think he'll be at sundey sunrise service ?
> He'll be about his Fathers business ,not his.
> 
> Rev_5:5  And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, *the Lion of the tribe of Juda,* the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.




Hmmm, I think my exact theological opposite has shown up.
Welcome


----------



## mtnwoman

Skyking said:


> neither am I ,but is this not your Messiah?
> What rule /kingdom will he re-establish upon his return?
> I bet it won't be a ham dinner at easter or a sunday pot luck do you ?You think he'll be at sundey sunrise service ?
> He'll be about his Fathers business ,not his.



He is my Messiah. Guess we'll be hauling grain to the store house, too, and killing a sacrificial lamb? We won't be doing any of that or any of that which you mentioned...whatever we'll be doing will be glorious and I don't know exactly what that is, except I know we will be praising God.

I don't know what we will eat, do you? I know that we will be dining with Jesus.

Do you know why we eat ham on easter?

Why would He need to be at a sunrise service, and more, why would we need/want/have to be? What's your point?


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## mtnwoman

hobbs27 said:


> Hmmm, I think my exact theological opposite has shown up.
> Welcome



Looks like it.


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## mtnwoman

Skyking said:


> My instructions tell me to be set apart ,so I'm can be sure of that when the Sabbath starts this evening.
> I realize that the majority here are looking through the rose colored glasses of the church and not the true words of scripture ,till we can all look at it the same way we'll never be able to come together.
> When the New Covenant was written there was only the Old to use as a reference to think that Paul and the others would break Torah to do what your suggesting is crazy .these men were some of the most studied in history.When you stop to think about it who would want these types of divisions to exist in the kingdom..?You think the old devil might have supplied counterfeits for us.
> so until you do your home work and find out who Israel is and what it takes to be in covenant and to be set apart I'm afraid you'll always consider believers like me to be in TOTAL error
> blessings



So Paul and the others still kept the old law of sacrificing a lamb for atonement? Did they still consider gentiles unclean as they were in the OT?  If we could keep the laws of the OT, why did Jesus come?


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## Lowjack

centerpin fan said:


> The church is a divine institution.  If you insist on removing the scriptures from the church that produced them, you can be fooled into believing anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do Gentiles have to be circumcised to be saved?



That would be an interesting discussion , but here is a short take from my view , those to which paul came down on and called "Judaizers"which is an insult ,might have being thinking as I do , Circumcision is not for salvation , Circumcision was a blood covenant with Abraham and his descendants , my take is if you want to be part of Abraham's Promises and part of the Fellowship of Israel then you should be circumsized , I think the so called Judaizers wanted those Gentiles to be part of the commonwealth of Israel and they were not referring to salvation at all, IMO. The Sanctification of the law comes after you have accepted the Law in the flesh that is Yeshua Hamasshiach , he is the Torah who became flesh.


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## Lowjack

Skyking said:


> neither am I ,but is this not your Messiah?
> What rule /kingdom will he re-establish upon his return?
> I bet it won't be a ham dinner at easter or a sunday pot luck do you ?You think he'll be at sundey sunrise service ?
> He'll be about his Fathers business ,not his.
> 
> Rev_5:5  And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, *the Lion of the tribe of Juda,* the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.


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## Lowjack

mtnwoman said:


> So Paul and the others still kept the old law of sacrificing a lamb for atonement? Did they still consider gentiles unclean as they were in the OT?  If we could keep the laws of the OT, why did Jesus come?



Yes they did and kept all the Jewish Holidays and Rituals.
“Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them went into the temple, declaring the fulfillment of the days of purification, until the offering was offered for every one of them” (Acts 21:26).
Paul had taken a vow of Nazarene and ended it according to Torah.

The Law Was not given as a Method of Salvation but of Sactification , the ritual killings only cleanse sin , the sacrifice of Messiah removes all sins.

Answer me this ?
CAn A Christian Not love God and be saved ?
Can a Christian bow to Idols and be saved ?
Can A Christian lie and be saved
can a christian steal and be saved
can a Christian be an adulterer and be saved ?
Can a Christian Muerder and be saved ?
Can A Chistian Covet and be saved  or do Christians Try not to do these things ? If you say I do not do these things is then because you are a true believer and teh Law has been written in your heart , automatically your concious knows these things are wrong before G-d. That is what the New Covenant is.


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## Lowjack

Things that Paul Continue to do although he said you don't need to do.
Acts 18:18
18 Paul stayed on in Corinth for some time. Then he left the brothers and sailed for Syria, accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila. Before he sailed, he had his hair cut off at Cenchrea because of a vow he had taken.
Paul was not the only one, many of the early sons of YHWH took this vow in obedience to the Torah or Law of YHWH:

Acts 21:23-24
23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

Already, we see how obedient Paul and all these early believers were to the VERY LAW the Christian Church abolished.  Interesting isn't it?  Back to the point...  did Paul offer sacrifices in the Temple... YES.  Upon completion of the vow he and others took of a Nazirite, they had to go to the Temple and cut their hair and offer the proper sacrifices in order to "end" their period of purification and consecration to YHWH:

Acts 21:26
 26The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date (the Nazarite vow is for a set period) when the days of purification (the duration of the Nazarite Vow) would end and the offering would be made for each of them.

Yahshua too... took this vow and it continues for Him even this day until His Second Coming.  This is why he refused to drink "wine" at the last Passover until He returned again and why he refused "vinagar" on the cross and why Yahshua died BEFORE the other two thieves (he couldn't be in the presence of a dead body) etc. etc...


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## Artfuldodger

I would like for Lowjack or Skyking to answer Mtnwoman's question more clearly and to state the question again; Jesus died for our sins. What does that mean?


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## Artfuldodger

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jesus was a ransom, a life for a life, unless blood is poured out, no sins can be forgiven. I guess you could say he didn't die for our sins as an excuse to keep on sinning. He didn't relieve us of sin. Just the relief of eternal punishment for sinning. could we say he died to "cover for our sins" instead of "our excuse to sin"
This is just my belief on why Jesus died.

I can see the correlation between sins & commandments. Can we divied commandments into ritual/diet/ceremony commands and moral commands?


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## mtnwoman

Lowjack said:


> Yes they did and kept all the Jewish Holidays and Rituals.
> “Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them went into the temple, declaring the fulfillment of the days of purification, until the offering was offered for every one of them” (Acts 21:26).
> Paul had taken a vow of Nazarene and ended it according to Torah.
> 
> The Law Was not given as a Method of Salvation but of Sactification , the ritual killings only cleanse sin , the sacrifice of Messiah removes all sins.
> 
> Answer me this ?
> CAn A Christian Not love God and be saved ?*NO*
> Can a Christian bow to Idols and be saved ?_NO_
> Can A Christian lie and be saved _YES_
> can a christian steal and be saved YES
> can a Christian be an adulterer and be saved ? YES
> Can a Christian Muerder and be saved ? YES
> Can A Chistian Covet and be saved  or do Christians Try not to do these things ? If you say I do not do these things is then because you are a true believer and teh Law has been written in your heart , automatically your concious knows these things are wrong before G-d. That is what the New Covenant is.



Jesus is the New Covenant...He fullfilled all the requirements of the Old Covenant, He became the lamb, His yoke is light, (we don't have to memorize the torah or slaughter lambs etc)

A Christian trys not to do those things, just like the Jews tried/try not to sin, but we did/do anyway. That is the reason for Jesus, is forgiveness for what we cannot accomplish on our own. 

In the OT each person had to abide by the law, something most could not do. God not wanting them to perish sent a Saviour/ Redeemer, ONLY because we had to have someone to help us not do those things (HS) and if we did and ask for forgiveness and not continue in that sin and most of all believe that Jesus was the Saviour and died for those sins we could be saved from our sins...rather than kill a lamb for atonement. Correct? 

We needed Jesus to forgive us and under His blood our sins are washed away if we ask for forgiveness.  If the gentiles and jews alike could have kept that law, we wouldn't have needed Jesus, would we? And we would still be under that law...something no one was obviously able to keep...that was the need for a Saviour, right? They didn't need a Saviour to keep their land or rule the world. That's why they didn't expect Jesus to be their Saviour. They thought He and they would be total rulers of this world/earth. 

None of us can be perfect enough to get into heaven, no matter how many rituals we follow to the T that God  ask of us, so we needed a saviour and Jesus is our saviour. He saves us from hale by the mercy and grace of the Father, yet we do have to believe who Jesus is. It's not by anything we do or don't do, it's by the blood and only the blood that we are saved. He is our Yom Kippur lamb....our atonement...right? So Jesus only had the power to change that one thing of the old law? No He fullfilled that law and we have a New Convenant, which love, do unto others, preach the gospel, forgive others is more important than not eating pork.

Galatians 5:1 
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.


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## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
> 
> Jesus was a ransom, a life for a life, unless blood is poured out, no sins can be forgiven. I guess you could say he didn't die for our sins as an excuse to keep on sinning. He didn't relieve us of sin. Just the relief of eternal punishment for sinning. could we say he died to "cover for our sins" instead of "our excuse to sin"
> This is just my belief on why Jesus died.
> 
> I can see the correlation between sins & commandments. Can we divied commandments into ritual/diet/ceremony commands and moral commands?



Agreed! I try not to sin because I love Jesus and don't use Jesus as an excuse to sin. I know when I sin and I ask for forgiveness and yet I sin again....and it's usually with my tongue.


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## centerpin fan

Lowjack said:


> ... I think the so called Judaizers wanted those Gentiles to be part of the commonwealth of Israel and they were not referring to salvation at all, IMO.



... but that is exactly what they said:

_And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
_


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## Lowjack

mtnwoman said:


> Jesus is the New Covenant...He fullfilled all the requirements of the Old Covenant, He became the lamb, His yoke is light, (we don't have to memorize the torah or slaughter lambs etc)
> 
> A Christian trys not to do those things, just like the Jews tried/try not to sin, but we did/do anyway. That is the reason for Jesus, is forgiveness for what we cannot accomplish on our own.
> 
> In the OT each person had to abide by the law, something most could not do. God not wanting them to perish sent a Saviour/ Redeemer, ONLY because we had to have someone to help us not do those things (HS) and if we did and ask for forgiveness and not continue in that sin and most of all believe that Jesus was the Saviour and died for those sins we could be saved from our sins...rather than kill a lamb for atonement. Correct?
> 
> We needed Jesus to forgive us and under His blood our sins are washed away if we ask for forgiveness.  If the gentiles and jews alike could have kept that law, we wouldn't have needed Jesus, would we? And we would still be under that law...something no one was obviously able to keep...that was the need for a Saviour, right? They didn't need a Saviour to keep their land or rule the world. That's why they didn't expect Jesus to be their Saviour. They thought He and they would be total rulers of this world/earth.
> 
> None of us can be perfect enough to get into heaven, no matter how many rituals we follow to the T that God  ask of us, so we needed a saviour and Jesus is our saviour. He saves us from hale by the mercy and grace of the Father, yet we do have to believe who Jesus is. It's not by anything we do or don't do, it's by the blood and only the blood that we are saved. He is our Yom Kippur lamb....our atonement...right? So Jesus only had the power to change that one thing of the old law? No He fullfilled that law and we have a New Convenant, which love, do unto others, preach the gospel, forgive others is more important than not eating pork.
> 
> Galatians 5:1
> Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.



What is Galatians 5;1 have to do with the law ? Nothing this is a good example of throwing verses to prove a point.
Writing to this diverse group, Paul spoke of everyone being “in bondage under the elements of the world” (Galatians 4:3) until God delivers us from those enslaving thoughts and actions through Christ’s sacrifice for our sins. Is it accurate to interpret “elements of the world” to mean the law of God?

No! Paul never referred to the commandments as “elements of the world.” Nor did God inspire any other writer of Scripture to refer to His laws in this way. Said another way, nowhere does the Bible call God’s law, or the laws God gave through Moses, “worldly.”

Instead, biblical references to “the world” mean the system governed and influenced by Satan. We need look no further than within this same letter to see what Paul meant: “But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world” (Galatians 6:14).


Continuing, Paul asked, “But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?” (Galatians 4:9). Are God’s laws “weak and beggarly elements”? Again, no! Neither Paul nor any other writer of the Bible referred to the law of God or the temporary laws He gave through Moses as “weak and beggarly elements”!


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## centerpin fan

centerpin fan said:


> Do Gentiles have to be circumcised to be saved?


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## mtnwoman

Lowjack said:


> What is Galatians 5;1 have to do with the law ? Nothing this is a good example of throwing verses to prove a point.
> Writing to this diverse group, Paul spoke of everyone being “in bondage under the elements of the world” (Galatians 4:3) until God delivers us from those enslaving thoughts and actions through Christ’s sacrifice for our sins. Is it accurate to interpret “elements of the world” to mean the law of God?
> 
> No! Paul never referred to the commandments as “elements of the world.” Nor did God inspire any other writer of Scripture to refer to His laws in this way. Said another way, nowhere does the Bible call God’s law, or the laws God gave through Moses, “worldly.”
> 
> Instead, biblical references to “the world” mean the system governed and influenced by Satan. We need look no further than within this same letter to see what Paul meant: “But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world” (Galatians 6:14).
> 
> 
> Continuing, Paul asked, “But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?” (Galatians 4:9). Are God’s laws “weak and beggarly elements”? Again, no! Neither Paul nor any other writer of the Bible referred to the law of God or the temporary laws He gave through Moses as “weak and beggarly elements”!



I never said the laws of Moses were worldly.  Yet Moses led a group of folks that wanted to return to eqypt because they were tired of eating manna and no longer had trust in Moses and made a graven image to worship. That was worldly. They wanted to return to bondage just to have security in food and shelter....40 years is a long time for a 12 mile hike. They wanted to return to bondage. Christ was sent to set them free from bondage, ALL bondage not only part. They did not receive the Saviour because He wasn't their 'worldly concept' of their Saviour.

Christ set us free from ALL bondage. Bondage from the pharisees, bondage to laws we could not keep. You cannot practice part of the law by keeping the sabbath, and not taking grain to the storehouse, or killing lambs for atonement....you can't just pick and choose what laws you wanna keep. You must keep them all or you can be set free by Christ, and keep His commandments, the NT...things we can do...love your neighbor, do unto others...God offered us a New Convenant and I have accepted that Covenant, because that's the only Covenant a Christian has to accept...Jesus Christ.

If you are convicted of keeping the sabbath, then you should do so. Doesn't mean I have to, I never practiced under that covenant. I do believe in the 10 commandments as a whole, it's just my sabbath is on a different day than yours is.  I can assure you I won't be forsaken if I don't keep your sabbath...I am free to worship and keep everyday as a sabbath unto my Lord, not just one day a week. Neither do I sacrifice a lamb for atonement, My Lamb of God has come unto me.


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## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


>



You are so hilarious!!


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## Artfuldodger

I'm off to bed, watch out for the iocane powder and say goodnight to Buttercup for me.


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## barryl

Jesus Christ- Liberty, Law- Condemnation


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## Lowjack




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