# Ames Plantation 2013 National Championship



## Setter Jax (Feb 13, 2013)

In case anyone is interested here is the link to Ames Plantation 2013 National Championship. This is the Super Bowl, World Series for bird dogs. Only two ESetters were invited this year. 

http://www.amesplantation.org/field-trials/2013-national-championship/brace-by-brace-synopsis

My favorite is Shadow Oak Bo


SJ


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## Jetjockey (Feb 13, 2013)

He had 7 finds and 3 backs and finished the three hours.  2 dogs around now with 7 finds, but I believe the other dog had 1 UP.  Sounds like a Setter is going to keep it interesting.  The last Setter to win was in 74 I believe..

Edit..  Rumor is he ran a heck (other word more appropriate) of a brace.  I have to say, I'm pulling for the Setter.


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## Setter Jax (Feb 13, 2013)

Shadow Oak Bo is in the lead right now.  The last time a setter won the National Championship was 1970, dog named Johnny Crockett .


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## Jetjockey (Feb 13, 2013)

Believe me, there is no way to tell who's in the lead until the judges announce the winner..  Been down that road!  But it does sound like he laid down a heck of a run that's going to be tough to beat.  But then again, they said that after the first brace.  

The interesting thing about JC is that supposedly he didn't throw pups that were anywhere near as good as he was.  And his career was short if I remember.  I'd love to see a Setter win it again though.  There was a day long ago when Setters dominated Ames.


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## setters (Feb 14, 2013)

I'm pulling for the setters all the way.  It looks like Thunderbird Jaxinabox had a tough break on Monday, but Shadow Oak Bo set the bar yesterday.  Now it's a wait and see what the other dogs do.  We still have Highground Jax Jabba on team setters that will run towards the end.  I think it would be great for Bo to win with Robin as the handler and owned by Butch Houston.  Go Bo go!


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## Jetjockey (Feb 15, 2013)

From the rumor boards the Setter had a nice run, but isn't the dog to beat.  Rumor is he didn't beat his brace mate, but who knows.  We will know when they take the picture on the steps.


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## muckalee (Feb 15, 2013)

I too, am fascinated by the National at Ames.  Gosh, so many days, so many outstanding dogs, how in the world can you tell? And of course throw in the fact that weather plays a part and I tell you guys, its a crapshoot!!


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## AMBWANA (Feb 15, 2013)

*Bird hunting*

Setter jax you need to try and come and hunt one more time before the season goes out. Coach came back a couple week ago and we had a great hunt. Lots of rain all the drains are full of water and really pushed birds up on hills and around fields. You got any buddies that have dogs that will point wild birds. Call me dan


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## Jetjockey (Feb 15, 2013)

muckalee said:


> I too, am fascinated by the National at Ames.  Gosh, so many days, so many outstanding dogs, how in the world can you tell? And of course throw in the fact that weather plays a part and I tell you guys, its a crapshoot!!



It's not as much of a crapshoot as you think to tell which dog is doing the best.  In a 3 hr trial like Ames, very few dogs will truly be in contention at the end.  They tend to weed themselves out.


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## 28gage (Feb 16, 2013)

Whether you're a setter or a pointer guy or gal it's got to be a little tough watching the National Bird dog Championship turned into a throw down trial.  Once and for a long time it was the arbitor of great dogs.  The best would rise to the top over the hard three hours chasing wild bobs through tough country.  Then birds got scarce and finds and excitment level turned down.  So a few years ago they began a release program with pre-released birds supplementing the wild population.  

When it made for 6-10 finds in a brace it kept everybody happy, then bad years came and weather hurt the released birds.  So this year the birds don't seem to be there and what do they do? they salt the freaking courses.  500 birds last Friday and another 500? this weekend.   This has made things like a supposed find where Robin gates picked up the bird, threw it in the air and shot his gun a hot topic on the interweb.  

Got to love the breeding choices of the future being made based on a three hour throw down trial.  A week end trial on steriods.  It's a truly sad day,  I hope there's fix but short of moving the trial not sure what that would be.


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## Jetjockey (Feb 16, 2013)

At the end of the day, the best dog will still win.  While it may be a glorified weekend trial, weekend trials aren't run on 12,000 acres.  Releasing 500 birds is 1 bird per 24 acres.  That's not a lot by any stretch.  At the end of the day, unless they are going to run every trial in NE or SD where there are enough wild birds to run a trial, every trial is going to be some sort of a throw down trial, and even then, dogs that get afternoon draws often don't stand a chance.  Imagine the dogs who get to run against sharptail or chickens that have been pointed 10 times in the last few days?  Dogs in the later braces won't stand a chance.  There is no perfect option unless someone has 20-30 thousand acres that the dogs can speead out and run on every third day in order to not pressure the birds too much.  

Last years AKC Nationals trial at Ames is a perfect example of what happens when birds have been pushed incredibly hard for a couple of weeks without any birds released.  Dogs run on certain courses didn't stand a chance.  Dogs on other courses found birds.  

Unfortunately, this is the world we live in , and there's no great answer.


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## 28gage (Feb 16, 2013)

Well actually it's worse than that.  If this is what they all turn into than there is no reason to spend time effort and money up north every summer.  Buy a couple hundred quail and get all your breaking done in the back forty.  A dog won't need to know how to handle wild birds.  Then the reason for the original trials will be lost.  The best dog on trail running special needs quail may not be the best dog to further the breed.


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## coveyrise (Feb 16, 2013)

There use to be horseback trials hosted at many of the plantations here in south ga. that have excellent populations of wild birds on them. The problem was that unless it was an invitational trial every yahoo in the county with a horse would show up for a trail ride and turn the trial until a drunk fest. The damage done by the horses to the terrain was bad also. Especially if there was rain a few days before the trial. I can remember it like it was yesterday when a land owner looked at the damage done after a trial and declared there would never be a trial on his land again. I could not blame him. A good venue for trials is getting harder and harder to come by. Thats a shame.
The Ga.-Fla. field trial will be run on monday and it will have some of the best true bird dogs in the country running in it. These are the dogs that work on the wild bird plantations everyday for a living. There will be plenty of wild birds to find at this trial. It is a one of the last true wild quail trials run around here.


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## setters (Feb 16, 2013)

It looks like Knight Rider had a really good run with 6 finds, one divided find, and a back.  He did have one UP but that's a pretty solid run.

I agree that it is a shame that they have had to supplement birds.  There's just not many places with enough wild birds to support a trial of this size.

Still one setter left.  I'm hoping Highground Jax Jabba will have a strong run.  If it's going to be a pointer, I'm pulling for Rail Hawk.


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## BFifer (Feb 16, 2013)

Hoping they look well upon Bo. Many out of my litter out of him are showing great promise in my opinion. Although my 1 male worked close early on, he's pointing birds with enough distance and respect to handle wild coveys and starting to range well with more confidence. Females are doing excellent as well, again, in my opinion. Very pleased and hope he gets the credit given that his performance stands up to the rest, regardless of the flaws that inhibit any competition. Is there any real true unfluenced or unflawed comp anymore anyway... shoot, even boxing is fixed. All I can hope is the judges look equally upon all breeds, regardless of trend and considerate of style.


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## Jetjockey (Feb 17, 2013)

If a dog runs in trials that are only run on wild birds, it still makes sense to send them off for summer camp on wild birds.  Wild quail aren't exactly the toughest birds for dogs to point to begin with, so I have no problem with them supplementing the population at Ames to level the playing field.  Now, if this was a true wild bird trial on chickens or sharptail in the prairies, then I'd have a problem with it.  Because those birds run, flush wild 100 of yards off, and can give a dog fits.  But bob's aren't known for being tough birds for dogs to point, even the wild ones.   When they moved the Brit Pheasant championship to Iowa after they lost the grounds in SD, they began supplementing the trial with quail due to a couple bad pheasant years in Iowa.  However, in order to win the dog still has to have a wild pheasant fin.  IMO there is nothing wrong with that since it evens the playing field and takes away some of the luck, or non luck, of the draw, especially on continues courses where one course might not have any birds on it.


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## 28gage (Feb 17, 2013)

Quail may not be as hard to get pointed as chickens but the difference between a wild bob and a special needs thrown down is huge.  And I'm not talking about just a trial, not just a championship but the National Championship.   It should be decided on wild birds and if not,  the closest thing to it (which is well managed pre-release birds) not salting the courses with pen raised birds.

And yes I guess the only thing short of a quail revival at Ames that will fix this is moving the trial.  That won't happen but should.  There are patrons of the sport out there who have the land and the birds.  It should be a test to find wild birds and get them pointed in bird country.  And nothing "levels the playing field" like wild birds.  It's our signiture field trial, it should bring out the best in a great dog.  Now I'll step off the box, but it's a shame it's come to this.


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## Coach K (Feb 17, 2013)

Jetjockey said:


> Believe me, there is no way to tell who's in the lead until the judges announce the winner..  Been down that road!  But it does sound like he laid down a heck of a run that's going to be tough to beat.  But then again, they said that after the first brace.
> 
> The interesting thing about JC is that supposedly he didn't throw pups that were anywhere near as good as he was.  And his career was short if I remember.  I'd love to see a Setter win it again though.  There was a day long ago when Setters dominated Ames.




There was a day when LLEWELLINS dominated the National Championship.  Say 11 of the first 19!  During that stretch one Llewellin, Sioux, won it back to back 1901 & 1902.  That's back when the National Champion was looking at the standard of what  an "ideal" hunting dog should be rather than a part greyhound that looks like it is hunting harder just because it covers more ground??.  

Would be nice to see the National Championship "discount" the range factor somewhat for dogs that are bird finding machines;- that go find the birds where they would be most likely to hang out even when it causes them to slow down to get through it, rather than a dog that only runs edges but covers 10 miles more & finds less birds but looks good doing it.  Doesn't make sense to me??


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## Coach K (Feb 17, 2013)

BFifer said:


> Hoping they look well upon Bo. Many out of my litter out of him are showing great promise in my opinion. Although my 1 male worked close early on, he's pointing birds with enough distance and respect to handle wild coveys and starting to range well with more confidence. Females are doing excellent as well, again, in my opinion. Very pleased and hope he gets the credit given that his performance stands up to the rest, regardless of the flaws that inhibit any competition. Is there any real true unfluenced or unflawed comp anymore anyway... shoot, even boxing is fixed. All I can hope is the judges look equally upon all breeds, regardless of trend and considerate of style.




Cage Fighting looks pretty square, to me?  ;-)


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## Coach K (Feb 17, 2013)

Jetjockey said:


> If a dog runs in trials that are only run on wild birds, it still makes sense to send them off for summer camp on wild birds.  Wild quail aren't exactly the toughest birds for dogs to point to begin with, so I have no problem with them supplementing the population at Ames to level the playing field.  Now, if this was a true wild bird trial on chickens or sharptail in the prairies, then I'd have a problem with it.  Because those birds run, flush wild 100 of yards off, and can give a dog fits.  But bob's aren't known for being tough birds for dogs to point, even the wild ones.   When they moved the Brit Pheasant championship to Iowa after they lost the grounds in SD, they began supplementing the trial with quail due to a couple bad pheasant years in Iowa.  However, in order to win the dog still has to have a wild pheasant fin.  IMO there is nothing wrong with that since it evens the playing field and takes away some of the luck, or non luck, of the draw, especially on continues courses where one course might not have any birds on it.



They should NEVER EVER run the National Field Trial with released birds.  For the SOLE reason that those birds will not be located in places where the wild bird knows to stay & has made it their habit.  Consequently, finds could be made where a truly wild bird hunting, more intelligent dog wouldn't be looking because he knows wild birds don't hang out there.  Gives the edge to a greyhound, rather than the more intelligent bird hunting dog.

I want to emphasize, it's not a matter of handling wild quail, but finding them.  & the way trial dogs are bred to run foremost, the majority of the trial dogs are being further & further removed from being proficient hunting dogs as speed & endurance have beat down better hunting traits that cause a dog to hunt slower, but find more birds (& miss fewer birds), not to mention be unhandleable.  Not, arguing which is better.  People that want what's closer to the "ideal" standard of hunting dogs are learning to stay away from field trial stock.


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## Jetjockey (Feb 17, 2013)

What happens in a wild bird trial if you get the unlucky draw on a course with ZERO wild birds?  Should you just not come to the line because you know your going birdless?  I've been to trials where there were no birds, it's not much fun.  The lucky dog wins, not the best dog.....  That's no way to run a Nationals..  

And we're not talking thousands of birds being released.  We're talking 500 birds on 12,000 acres!!  The edges at Ames ARE where the wild birds are, they groom it that way.  I road the AKC Nationals there last year.  Most of the finds were buried finds in the edges where wild birds live.  As long as the birds act and fly wild, I could care less.


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## coveyrise (Feb 17, 2013)

Jetjockey said:


> What happens in a wild bird trial if you get the unlucky draw on a course with ZERO wild birds?  Should you just not come to the line because you know your going birdless?  I've been to trials where there were no birds, it's not much fun.  The lucky dog wins, not the best dog.....  That's no way to run a Nationals..
> 
> And we're not talking thousands of birds being released.  We're talking 500 birds on 12,000 acres!!  The edges at Ames ARE where the wild birds are, they groom it that way.  I road the AKC Nationals there last year.  Most of the finds were buried finds in the edges where wild birds live.  As long as the birds act and fly wild, I could care less.



You never have to pick up a wild bird and throw them in the air. I don't know anything more wilder than a wild bobwhite quail in late feb. They will launch at the sound of a twig snapping. Such a shame they have had to lower the standards at the trials.


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## Jetjockey (Feb 17, 2013)

Coach.    Have you been to Ames?  

I'm sure there is more to the story of the handler picking up a bird and throwing it.  I have NEVER heard of that in a trial.


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## BFifer (Feb 17, 2013)

Cage fighting... Agreed, good point!


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## Jetjockey (Feb 17, 2013)

Ya. Last year when my trainer was living in KY all he trained on for the most part was wild quail.  I spent several days running dogs with him and we found lots of wild coveys. He had lots of wild birds, yet he still headed out to the Dakota's to train on wild birds, even though he had wild quail in his back hard.  I've also run dogs at several trials such as Di Lane that had a mixture of wild birds and released birds.  I have hunted very few wild quail, but I've run dogs on lots of them.  I do however have lots of experience with wild pheasants, sharptail, and chickens.  As a matter of fact, my trainer has now moved to NE so he can train on wild chickens and sharptail.


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## Coach K (Feb 17, 2013)

Plus, putting down a feed line also screws up & taints any wild bird natural habits.


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## Jetjockey (Feb 17, 2013)

That's good.  I've been hunting wild birds for about 25 years now.  Does that mean we get to talk?  I've killed wild pheasants, sharptail, chickens, chuckar, and quail.  My trial dog also spends 3-4 months a year being trained on only wild birds to include quail, pheasants, sharptail, and chickens.  Does that make her a trial dog who can't find wild birds?


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## Coach K (Feb 17, 2013)

I'll talk to your dog, though!  (I'm sure she could tell me a thing, or two!)


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## Jetjockey (Feb 17, 2013)

Whats your point?  Wild quail aren't hard for dogs to point.  At least wild bobs aren't. This is the same old boring arguement about trial dogs vs hunting dogs.  I'm glad your hunting dogs found birds in 20 minutes when the trial dogs didn't.  That's not what's asked of a dog running a trial though.  Judges are looking for a lot more than just the number of finds, and if they dont see everything, you dont win.  Good dogs are good dogs.......  Unless you've grown up hunting, and also spent a few years in the trial world, you wouldn't understand the difference between the two.  Wild bobs are hardley the defining bird of a good pointing dog.  You want to prove a dogs worth?  Put them on late season pheasants in December after theyve been hunted mercilessly for 3 months.  Put them above the Snake River and see how athletic they are and how much drive they have climbing those mountains for chuckar.  Put them in a 1 hr+ trial and see if they can go all out without slowing when birds are tough to dig up.......   I grew up hunting wild birds.  I'm a hunter first and foremost.  However, I'm a trialer secondly.  I've seen a TON of dogs over my lifetime, both trial dogs and hunting dogs.   Give me a good trial dog anyday of the week when it comes to strapping on the leather and a 20 gauge for wild birds.  Give me a great trial dog who has been trained on wild birds, and I'll show you a dog that will dig up birds when others just can't.


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## BirdNut (Feb 18, 2013)

Ames has upped the technology-sharing each year.  This year's format is nice for viewing.  Some nice photos have been posted.  I have always wanted to go there and observe in person, and take a picture of my dog's granddaddy's statue.

I tend to agree with 28 gage's thoughts...a few years back Ames experimented with pre-release coveys.  I wonder why they went back to this method...I would assume some complaint about the lack of birds, which is why they started the pre-release in the first place.  I would agree it is tough to say the "best of the best"since the shake n bake birds will behave differently than wild or pre-release.  Also would be tough to say if there were ZERO birds on the courses.  I would tend to dispute this, but I might concede that over the courses pounded day after day by dogs/handlers/scouts/judges/ and the thundering gallery might drive the birds deeper into cover.  They are not being shot or really overly harassed-running just two braces a day.  They still have to feed, roost, etc.

Without impugning anyone's experience, I would say that a dog that can handle chukars, western quail, bobwhite (in South Texas or South Georgia), ruffed grouse, prairie chicken,  sharpies and pheasant _equally well_ and _excels_is a truly special dog.  It would mean a very intelligent dog with a phenomenal nose, plus without saying great stamina and desire to hunt.  The characteristics and habitat of many of these birds is so different (i.e. Pheasant versus Ruffed Grouse).  Sometimes a dog that does really well on wild quail is an OK pheasant dog, and vice versa.  Sometimes pheasants will screw up a quail dog.  Even a quail dog might not make the transition from the piney woods of South Georgia to the rough dry terrain of South Texas, on the same bird.

"Liberated" birds have been used a long time.  I remember seeing a NY pheasant trial poster from 1938 "To be run on liberated Pheasants".  

We have already had the discussion regarding trial dog versus non-trial dog.  There probably is no resolution on this topic.  One thing you do have to say is the trial dogs are phenomenally conditioned and will typically have much more bird work (released and wild) than the average hunting man's string.  Exceptions would be that there are some folks out there that hunt a lot and put out a lot of birds.

A little math-I hunted in TX in December on a wild bird ranch.  We moved 12-15 coveys a day (it was a "bad" year) and the outfitter was running 18 dogs a day.  Each brace ran an hour or so, some ran in more than one brace a day.  He had good dogs, but none I was super impressed with.  Don't get me wrong, they were good dogs, but none that really really stood out.  This man hunts professionally every day of the season practically, on wild birds all over Texas, and each one of his dogs might be averaging less than a covey find a day.  Some were mishandled due to wind, etc. the kinds of things that happen with wild birds.  Sometimes we would get a point and have to relocate a number of times due to running birds.  Sometimes we got no birds up at all.


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## Jetjockey (Feb 18, 2013)

I'd agree with that Birdnutt.  IMO, any bird dog can be great on wild birds if given the opportunity.  A great quail dog might not make the trip to SD and understand how to hunt wild pheasants.  Give them a few contacts though, and a couple mistakes, and they pick it up pretty darn quick, because they are good dogs.  No different than taking a dog who has hunted mostly grouse, and putting them on quail.  

As far as released birds at Ames, the good dogs are still going to win because they are going to find the wild birds, AND the released birds.  A dog that doesn't know how to find and handle wild birds, most likely wont have enough finds to win.  However, considering the quality of dog that's running at Ames, and the fact that 99% of them get trained on wild birds and released birds, I have complete confidence that the judges will get it right.   And even though the birds aren't getting shot at, it doesn't take many braces before the birds learn the course.  They will seek cover away from the horses and off the course pretty quick.  The last thing you want in a trial is a dog to dig in too deep, lock up, and have the scout, gallery, and handler all ride past a few hundred yards away.  Game Over!!  Trials are a balancing act of running, handling, hunting, and bird work.  The worst feeling in the world as a scout is when the handler calls for the tracker and you KNOW the dog is standing somewhere but you can't find him.


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## coveyrise (Feb 18, 2013)

Jetjockey said:


> Whats your point?  Wild quail aren't hard for dogs to point.  At least wild bobs aren't. This is the same old boring arguement about trial dogs vs hunting dogs.  I'm glad your hunting dogs found birds in 20 minutes when the trial dogs didn't.  That's not what's asked of a dog running a trial though.  Judges are looking for a lot more than just the number of finds, and if they dont see everything, you dont win.  Good dogs are good dogs.......  Unless you've grown up hunting, and also spent a few years in the trial world, you wouldn't understand the difference between the two.  Wild bobs are hardley the defining bird of a good pointing dog.  You want to prove a dogs worth?  Put them on late season pheasants in December after theyve been hunted mercilessly for 3 months.  Put them above the Snake River and see how athletic they are and how much drive they have climbing those mountains for chuckar.  Put them in a 1 hr+ trial and see if they can go all out without slowing when birds are tough to dig up.......   I grew up hunting wild birds.  I'm a hunter first and foremost.  However, I'm a trialer secondly.  I've seen a TON of dogs over my lifetime, both trial dogs and hunting dogs.   Give me a good trial dog anyday of the week when it comes to strapping on the leather and a 20 gauge for wild birds.  Give me a great trial dog who has been trained on wild birds, and I'll show you a dog that will dig up birds when others just can't.



If you think wild quail are not hard to point then why are they having to release so many birds for you trialing guys?  Bottom line is the trial dogs can't cut it. Why else? Continue to sip the kool-aid. 
By the way there were over 120 wild coveys seen today at the Ga.-Fla. trial. Not pointed. Over 350 riders. They did not have to lower their standards as they do at Di-Lane and release birds in the road so the dogs could have a find. 
I hunted this afternoon for 2 hours and moved 8 coveys. Dogs would point and birds would run 100 yards and flush wild well ahead of dogs. I have hunted hunted quail in the west, chickens in the plains and grouse in the U.P. Nothing harder than these bobs.


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## Jetjockey (Feb 21, 2013)

Probably the same reason most of the high end quail plantations release quail to suplement their wild birds..  

But it shows your lack of knowledge about trials and bird dogs.   I have yet to have anyone explain the difference between a bird dog and a trial dog.  Do they come from different DNA?  Do you train them differently?  Please explain the difference to everyone Coveyrise!!     What about the hundreds of trial dogs who spend the entire off season hunting wild birds?  How do they do it if they can't cut it?

And the reason thy release birds is to supplement the bird population is because many grounds have ZERO birds.  Many grounds are full of wild birds, and then there is everything inbetween.  Did you see any of the reports from the Di Lane hunts?  Most people were lucky to move one or two coveys in an entire day, a week after the trials.  Yet the trial dogs were moving one to two coveys a brace.  Please explain that too me Covey.

BTW.  Last brace at the NC is today and many of the boards are buzing that this has been the best Nationals in some time.  No dog seems to have run away with the Championship this year and there is rumor of a possible callback.  Sounds like Bo is definitely in the running since he had the most bird work, but maybe not the bed race and style.  GREAT trial this year from the sounds of it!

Edit.  They canceled the afternoon brace due to weather.  Last brace will run tomorrow morning.  Rumor on the boards is 2-3 dogs who are actually in the running.  Unfortunately the Setter isn't one of them.  But you never know till they call it.  There's been some buzz that Knight Rider is the dog to beat right now, but it's close.


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## BirdNut (Feb 21, 2013)

How far does an average trial dog go in a 1 hour horseback trial?


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## BirdNut (Feb 21, 2013)

op2:


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## Jetjockey (Feb 21, 2013)

I'd say probably 12-20 miles depending on the amount of finds and cover....

Great picks Birdnut.  Especially the bottom one.  Looks like that dog has birds pointed 20-30 yards away in heavy cover.  That's the sign of a great wild bird dog who knows where wild birds live.  I looked at most the pictures and nearly every dog is pointed into thick and nasty cover.  ;-).     Plus they don't show the dug in finds where you can't see the dog to take the picture.


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## ddb217 (Feb 21, 2013)

how do you open the link to pictures


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## Jetjockey (Feb 21, 2013)

Here's the link DD.

http://amesplantation.zenfolio.com/f828507112


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## BirdNut (Feb 21, 2013)

ddb217 said:


> how do you open the link to pictures



You gotta click on the little camera icon.


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## BirdNut (Feb 21, 2013)

Jetjockey said:


> I'd say probably 12-20 miles depending on the amount of finds and cover....



If I understand right, 12-20 miles in a 1 hour heat (which sounds like A LOT), and 1-2 finds a heat is pretty poor performance on a seeded course.  Heck, with a 10 year old pointer, a 12 year old and 9 year old boy in tow I was able to find 3 coveys in an hour, walking.

Now if you meant 12-20 miles ranged in the 3 hour heat of the NC, that's a little more reasonable, particularly with the greater number of finds of some of the dogs.  But still, on a seeded course I would expect a whole lot more bird finding in 3 hours.  In this I would tend to agree with Coveyrise on the sentiment of  running vs. bird finding of the dogs in trials.

I will have to look it up but a dog a few years back had double digit finds at the NC, if i am not mistaken.  That's the dog I want in my bloodline, regardless of the "race".  Another had 9...this was mid-decade.

I do know that down at least one of the South Georgia wild bird plantations, that for the man to keep his job, he has to average 4 coveys an hour for the plantation owner.  That is pretty stout.


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## BirdNut (Feb 21, 2013)

Jetjockey said:


> Great picks Birdnut.  Especially the bottom one.  Looks like that dog has birds pointed 20-30 yards away in heavy cover.  That's the sign of a great wild bird dog who knows where wild birds live.  I looked at most the pictures and nearly every dog is pointed into thick and nasty cover.  ;-).     Plus they don't show the dug in finds where you can't see the dog to take the picture.



Yeah-I like the long distance point too.  In fact, this is the dog I would want to be breeding too versus maybe the one that has the handler pointing out what has got to be a pen raised bird 3 feet in front of him.  In this respect, I have to support 28 gauge's thoughts.  That's why I posted this set of photos.

To be fair, the dog in the close point photo had six finds...maybe this one was an air washed single and maybe the rest of the finds looked like the more natural one in the other photo.  But still, gotta wonder about birds you can walk up to and point out from a few feet away.  In this I think of what 28 gauge was saying about is this really separating the wheat from the chaff and tend to agree what a shame it is they are tossing out birds.

Lotta politics in this business...


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## Jetjockey (Feb 21, 2013)

Birdnut.  I think you should go back and re-read the Di Lane thread.  They hunted Di Lane shortly after the trials and found 3 coveys ALL DAY!  3 coveys of released birds by the way.  The trialers on the same course were averaging 2-3 coveys an hour. That's apples to apples!!!   

Btw.  You can't judge a trial by a single picture.  You have no idea if that was a single bird or a covey bird.  You also have no idea what the handlers pointing at.  Did the dog jus happen to hit scent on the edge and lock up, and that's why its close?  Did the  dog smell the birds from 50 yards away and track them till he pinned down because the covey was running?  Was the handler pointing out a running bird so the judges could see the point wasn't a UP?  Tell us all EXACTLY what was going on in that one single picture....    Then please explain why the trialers on the North course at Di Lane were pointing 2-3 coveys an hour while the hunters found 3 coveys all day!!   Oh ya, and many of the coveys the trialers found were wild coveys, not released coveys like the hunters found.


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## BirdNut (Feb 21, 2013)

Dude.  I am talking from personal experience.  You seem to have just gotten into the game, and luckily (or by design), you have gotten a really good dog that has done well.  I am glad for you.  I hope you continue to have success.

Apples to fruit basket:  the Di-Lane trial was post bird release.  I went just before that, in late December found a 3 wild coveys in a few hours with an over the hill pointer and two young kids in tow.  We covered a fraction of the ground I used to in previous years (when we did even better, all on foot), in a few hours.  I attribute it to the quality of the dog and or dogs.  Some others on here have made opinions about running versus finding.  This is relevant.  If a middle aged fat guy on foot with his two kids and decrepit pointer can out find any given dog in a horse-back release+wild bird trial, what is going on in the world of trialdom?  What does that say about the quality of dogs that were at the Di-Lane trial?  

And in the photo caption, it clearly reads "Knight Rider on point with his third find as handler Ike Todd points out the birds".  It looks to me like he could throw his shoe and kill the bird.  Those of us that have hunted the "easy to point" bob white get a little sick feeling in our stomach when we see a situation like this.  Its why I don't call a visit to a preserve a "hunt", its training-and a poor facsimile thereof.

The trial is supposed to evaluate the quality of the dog.  I think that is the debate.  Has tradition, the game, politics, whatever, diluted the trial from what it was meant to be as 28 Gauge said-to better the breed?  A few years back a big name in the trail game ran afoul of some genetics for whatever reason, but I guess competition-those of you who know, know who I am talking about-no reason to call the man's name.  Now your if your dog wins can be subjected to genetic testing because of this.  Is it the first time it happened, no, but it was conspicuous enough and went to high enough levels where the sanctioning body had to do something about it.

Look man, I have read your posts, and the tone comes across as pure arrogance.  Its hard to say if you really mean it or not.  People who know have a valid point when they say its running and not finding.  The big time field trial community is so insular its immune to the ramblings of us little bitty common folk on the fringe.  And there is the danger-for years people have been debating whether the trialing has gotten away from what its meant to be.  And that's all this is...a few opinions that the _game_ of trialing has become a force in and of itself, and has only a passing relation to real hunting.

I realize there are dogs that I would dearly pay a nice sum to hunt in a place with a lot of wild birds and witness the best dog work of my life and remember it forever.  But all a few of us are saying is there are also some dogs there that at the end of that day, you might want your money back, having been a little duped about the caliber of bird finder you just hunted behind.


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## Jetjockey (Feb 21, 2013)

First off, I wasnt talking about your hunt.  I was talking the recent Di Lane hunt that was post release.  Secondly, unless you put the dogs down on the same grounds, within reasonably the same time period, you arent comparing apples to apples.   I dont care if you found 10 coveys of wild birds at Di Lane, unless you can say you put your dogs down on the same exact day, on the same exact course as the trial dogs, a comparison simply can't be made.   BTW.. On the GD course, the dogs were averaging 2-3 finds per dog each half hour.  So does that make them better trial dogs?  

Birdnut.  How many trials have you ran?  How many trial dogs have you owned, and how many trials have you judged?

And I wouldn't comment about the person who got banned if I were you.  Unless you know what REALLY happened!


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## 28gage (Feb 22, 2013)

And now for something completely different.  It looks like a setter may do what no setter since Johnny Crockett back in the 70's has done (could be up to a decade off, you know free love and pot).  Only the judges know what they saw but folks are talking like it's either Bo outright or Bo in a callback.  Only a bye dog to run this morning then we'll know.


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## Jetjockey (Feb 22, 2013)

And the Setter wins it!!!!   Congrats to Shadow Oak Bo.  Historic trial!  Imagine that, the dog with the most finds crowned NC!!  But I thought it was all about the run, and bird work came second? ;-)


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## JuliaH (Feb 22, 2013)

Congratulations to CH Shadow Oak Bo!! Also winner of 

Continental AA Championship 2011 

RU Dominion Open Chicken Championship 2010

Here is a link to a great article about this dog:

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2013/feb/16/shadow-oak-bo-could-become-first-setter-since-to/


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## Setter Jax (Feb 22, 2013)

Great News!!! Way to Go Bo!!!!!


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## coveyrise (Feb 22, 2013)

Jetjockey said:


> Probably the same reason most of the high end quail plantations release quail to suplement their wild birds..
> 
> But it shows your lack of knowledge about trials and bird dogs.   I have yet to have anyone explain the difference between a bird dog and a trial dog.  Do they come from different DNA?  Do you train them differently?  Please explain the difference to everyone Coveyrise!!     What about the hundreds of trial dogs who spend the entire off season hunting wild birds?  How do they do it if they can't cut it?
> 
> ...



High end plantations releasing birds? I don't know any high end plantations that release birds. I am sure your idea of high end and mine are different though. You probably think of Di-Lane as high end. The difference between a bird dog and a trial dog is this . A bird dog is a dog that a man trains himself then can go out and find wild quail everytime with. He works his dog on his own without anyone telling him how to do it and does it in perfect order. A trial dog is a dog that the owner pays someone to train and run for him because he does'nt have a clue how to do it himself. Then he can brag about what his handler did with"his" dog. 
As for my lack of knowledge. How many times have you been asked to judge a trial? I have many times. Always ran my own dogs also.But these were FDSB and not ABC trials. Excuse me I meant AKC. Is'nt the AKC the same people that sponsor the Westminster dog show? 
I can't explain why some people only found 1-2 coveys a day. I have averaged 1 covey an hour this year on public land. Had 10-12 covey days numerous times in less than 6 hours. Can't comment on someone elses dogs.


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## Jetjockey (Feb 22, 2013)

Funny.  When I qualified my dog for the AA Nationals I'm pretty sure I was the one in the saddle.  Pretty sure the AmCh and RU AMCh in frot of her name are FDSB titles, and not AKC titles as well.  But what do I Know?  Btw.  Rio Piedra releases birds, as do many of the others.    Oh ya, and the dog with the most finds won Nationals!


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## coveyrise (Feb 22, 2013)

Just as I thought. You see Rio Piedra as a plantation. ITS A SHOOTING PRESERVE! None of the true older plantations around me would ever let someone pay to hunt on their property. Was'nt it you who said he was flying out somewhere to watch his dog point 6 week old chickens out west last year with his trainer. Do you ever have someone else train your dog for you.? I have never ever needed another man to train my dogs or less condition them. 
The fact that you placed a dog in a trial in these days of released birds means nothing to me except that your dog will point. I have talked to some of the people who road the Ames trial and they said the quaility of dog work gets sorryer every year. You boys got the truck in reverse. Put it in forward.


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## JuliaH (Feb 23, 2013)

I have stayed out of this until now, but I have to get in at this point.  I am a perfect example of a person who uses a trainer and yet am proud of what my dogs are doing in the field. I am just now beginning to do Amateur stuff, and if I do well and we win, I will be thrilled. If I don't, we won't get the amateur wins and I will still have learned something. 

I am going to ask about big plantations using released birds from someone who knows too. What big plantations are you talking about?  I would like to call and see about bird season and if everything is wild birds.

There is a huge difference that I see among us all here. Not many other than JJ and I are serious field trial folks. Most just like to hunt their dogs, but there is no difference in the pride I (and I expect JJ too) have in our dogs. We probably have more $$ in the game than most. We probably pay serious attention to pedigree because if we want our efforts to pay off, then we need the best dogs we can find. That does not put a sad light on other dogs at all. I love them all, and I have learned from this board, and hope to continue learning from others who are interested, friendly, and willing to accept all comers.... amateurs, trial people, hunt test people, experienced guides and trainers.... I mean all people. 

Now, I have known dogs to get shot for not being steady to wing and shot. Not many times, but it happens. I have watched shows on tv that were fun, except for seeing good pointing dogs take off running when the bird is flushed and seeing hunters shooting away over the head of that dog. Dumb as rocks is my thought on that. 

I don't like snobs and that is anywhere I find them. I would not mind a good fussin' at if I ever act snobbish on any board with any person, and I don't mind backing down if I am wrong, but this argument has crossed the line of politeness and you sir have been the man who said too much. This is a terrible situation between a couple of men who have different goals, to argue like this, and I know at least one good person who rarely posts here any more....  and I am not talking about me. 

Is not the upland board for all who love bird dogs and what they do?  

Julia




coveyrise said:


> High end plantations releasing birds? I don't know any high end plantations that release birds. I am sure your idea of high end and mine are different though. You probably think of Di-Lane as high end. The difference between a bird dog and a trial dog is this . A bird dog is a dog that a man trains himself then can go out and find wild quail everytime with. He works his dog on his own without anyone telling him how to do it and does it in perfect order. A trial dog is a dog that the owner pays someone to train and run for him because he does'nt have a clue how to do it himself. Then he can brag about what his handler did with"his" dog.
> As for my lack of knowledge. How many times have you been asked to judge a trial? I have many times. Always ran my own dogs also.But these were FDSB and not ABC trials. Excuse me I meant AKC. Is'nt the AKC the same people that sponsor the Westminster dog show?
> I can't explain why some people only found 1-2 coveys a day. I have averaged 1 covey an hour this year on public land. Had 10-12 covey days numerous times in less than 6 hours. Can't comment on someone elses dogs.


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## maker4life (Feb 23, 2013)

Sorry JJ but saying Rio is a high end "plantation" is pretty darn funny and pretty much discredits what you have to say on the matter!!!!!!!!


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## Jim P (Feb 23, 2013)

I don't do the trial scene, but would love to watch one some day, I don't consider myself a great trainer so just hunt wild birds when I can, but also raise a few birds for myself, but what I see here is not what I agree with, most of us can't hunt on these private quail plantations that spend thousands to have wild birds, some people have a trainer so they can get the most out of there dog and that is there right, if they want to tail them that is also there right and you won'r see me bad mouth them for doing this. The one thing bird hunters have in common is the love of our hunting buddies no matter what breed. I was lucky to have been hunting birds when there was enough birds to just hunt the covey and not worry about the singlesm but times have changed so we all need to have each others back or we will go just like the birds have gone.


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## coveyrise (Feb 23, 2013)

JuliaH said:


> I have stayed out of this until now, but I have to get in at this point.  I am a perfect example of a person who uses a trainer and yet am proud of what my dogs are doing in the field. I am just now beginning to do Amateur stuff, and if I do well and we win, I will be thrilled. If I don't, we won't get the amateur wins and I will still have learned something.
> 
> I am going to ask about big plantations using released birds from someone who knows too. What big plantations are you talking about?  I would like to call and see about bird season and if everything is wild birds.
> 
> ...



I apologize if I have offended you in any way. You have always been a humble person and I am sure you enjoy your trialing. There was a time when I did but got tired of the same my dogs the greatest attitude from the trial community. I drove the dog wagon at the Ga.-Fla. trial as a young man in the 70's and have many fond memories of those days. Maybe if we bird hunters keep at it we might have "the best of the best" one day.


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## JuliaH (Feb 23, 2013)

I love the dogs, and I like everyone on this forum!  You don't need to apologize my friend.... no one does.    Sometimes we just forget, and I am chief among those so often. 

One of the things I like about my trainer is his vast experience... kinda like sitting at his home or out at a trial and learning   I would think that there is much more to learn from you and others here, if I live long enough to learn what I must to be a good owner 

It's all about the dogs anyhow, and they are fantastic, no matter the breed! I remember the first time I ever saw a dog point a bird. I was speechless, and it was not even in the field... it was in a veterinary clinic when a Field Champion GWP came in for some care and he saw the caged (one wing missing) pigeon!  That doctor could have done anything. The dog never took his attention off the bird. 

I then called that dog's owner and asked him if he thought my puppy could do that.  I had gotten myself a GSP, and what an adventure it has been since that day 

The dogs, this forum, and friends in person have been a big part of my life since that day. I am proud to call you all friends!

Julia





coveyrise said:


> I apologize if I have offended you in any way. You have always been a humble person and I am sure you enjoy your trialing. There was a time when I did but got tired of the same my dogs the greatest attitude from the trial community. I drove the dog wagon at the Ga.-Fla. trial as a young man in the 70's and have many fond memories of those days. Maybe if we bird hunters keep at it we might have "the best of the best" one day.


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## Jetjockey (Feb 23, 2013)

coveyrise said:


> Just as I thought. You see Rio Piedra as a plantation. ITS A SHOOTING PRESERVE! None of the true older plantations around me would ever let someone pay to hunt on their property. Was'nt it you who said he was flying out somewhere to watch his dog point 6 week old chickens out west last year with his trainer. Do you ever have someone else train your dog for you.? I have never ever needed another man to train my dogs or less condition them.
> The fact that you placed a dog in a trial in these days of released birds means nothing to me except that your dog will point. I have talked to some of the people who road the Ames trial and they said the quaility of dog work gets sorryer every year. You boys got the truck in reverse. Put it in forward.



So now your trying to delegitimize summer camp training in the Dakotas (the states with the highest wild bird populations in the country)  by saying the birds are only 6 week old chickens?  What about the birds who bred to make those 6 week old chickens?  What about the sharptail, the pheasants, and the huns? Would you like me to show you pictures of our annual trip out to SD to hunt late season wild roosters with those lousy trial dogs?  

I sent my dog off to be trained not because I couldn't do it, but because I can't take three months off work to head to the Dakotas so the dogs can see more wild birds in one summer then most hunting dogs see in a lifetime.  That's why I send my dog off.  And again, I haven't bashed hunting dogs like you do trial dogs.  I'm smart enough to know a good dog is a good dog.  And I also know many, if not most, of the dogs who qualify for Ames do it in wild bird only trials.  Do you think it's a coincidence that this years winner spends its summer with its handler in Canada training on wild birds?  Dogs don't qualify, and they certainly don't win Ames, without being darn nice wild bird dogs.  I'd be willing to bet you could take Bo to nearly any part of the country, and he could adapt very easily to point wild quail in GA, grouse in PA, pheasants in SD, and chuckar in WA state.  And he could also do it better than 99% of all the dogs in the country.    I'm done arguing with you though. I have to get up early to go pheasant hunting in the morning with a dog that would have been an amazing trial dog, but instead just gets foot hunted and sleeps on the couch.  She's an awesome hunting dog because good dogs are good dogs.


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## JuliaH (Feb 24, 2013)

JJ, should we not just let this go now?  Going on and on is not gonna help anyone, and is just giving all a black eye.


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## Coach K (Feb 24, 2013)

This was posted by a friend 90+ yrs old, Herb Anderson, who not only owns hunting dogs, but campaigned dogs every year until this past couple of years at the National.  If memory serves, his last dog was Spectre Pete that passed away before the nationals last year, but had qualified.  I thought he owned Brush Country Spectre (or something like that), as well.  David will probably remember.  This post was made on Friday on our Llewellin Forum. (*find us on facebook*) which I thought was before the judges had made any decision.

Herbert Anderson _I saw Shadow Oak Bo run at the National. He reminded me of Johnny Crocket whom I saw at the 1970 National in that he was found on point after time. On the ground his bracemate, Matt Coverdale's Riverton's Funseek'n Scooter was much stronger with Bo bringing up the rear, as attested by his three backs. Scooter ran more in the bold, slashing all-age style of the western prairies while Bo loped along more in shooting dog fashion. But they often say that the National at Ames Plantation is a high class shooting dog trial and so it is apparently appropriate to pick a dog which is a high class shooting dog--at least as far as speed and ground coverage goes. Herb_


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## coveyrise (Feb 25, 2013)

"and he could do it better than 99% of all dogs in the country". Judge I rest my case.


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