# The "Word" of God



## HawgJawl (Mar 11, 2011)

Throughout the Bible, the "word" of God or the "word" of the Lord refers to a some sort of communication or message from God.  Sometimes the "word" came to someone in a dream or vision.  Sometimes, when it was a directive or command, it was written down into a law and was referred to as the "word" of the Lord.

But sometimes it is a capitalized "Word" and it assumes a different and higher purpose.  When we see "Word" capitalized, it is not referring to written scripture;

John 1:1      In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14      And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 John 5:7      For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Revelations 19:13      And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

The "Word of God" is Jesus Christ (and Jesus' message for mankind).  It is not whatever version of the collection of scripture that we choose to call the Bible.

Some people venerate the Bible to such a hallowed status that they begin to believe, and teach others, that salvation is dependent upon an unwavering belief that the Bible is the inerrant "Word" of God.  By doing so, these people exalt the Bible to such a sacred level that they conjoin the validity of scripture with the validity of Christianity.  

This is evident by all the attempts to discredit Christianity by simply discrediting the Bible.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 11, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Throughout the Bible, the "word" of God or the "word" of the Lord refers to a some sort of communication or message from God.  Sometimes the "word" came to someone in a dream or vision.  Sometimes, when it was a directive or command, it was written down into a law and was referred to as the "word" of the Lord.
> 
> But sometimes it is a capitalized "Word" and it assumes a different and higher purpose.  When we see "Word" capitalized, it is not referring to written scripture;
> 
> ...


 I'm trying to recall, but I seem to remember that the "capitalization" comes from the translators and not from the original. Someone verify this please. Also, if the whole bible was "God's word", it would be perfect, without error, but it is not without error. Those who wish it to be without error are only kidding themselves. Religious tunnel vision. It's a man made book. But it still contains truth


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## centerpin fan (Mar 11, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I'm trying to recall, but I seem to remember that the "capitalization" comes from the translators and not from the original.



The oldest Greek manuscripts were written in uncial script which has no lower case letters.


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## gtparts (Mar 11, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Also, if the whole bible was "God's word", it would be perfect, without error, but it is not without error. Those who wish it to be without error are only kidding themselves. Religious tunnel vision. It's a man made book. But it still contains truth



My daddy's daddy had a word for this. It was "Hogwash".  Still is!


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 11, 2011)

gtparts said:


> My daddy's daddy had a word for this. It was "Hogwash".  Still is!


 I guess you don't agree. So you know your bible well?????  It has no mistakes???


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## gtparts (Mar 11, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I guess you don't agree. So you know your bible well?????  It has no mistakes???


With the guidance of the Holy Spirit, God's written word communicates perfectly what God intends for it to communicate. He will never forsake me, nor will His word mislead me. If one cannot rely on His word, neither can one rely on Him. The Perfect One does not speak imperfection. His very nature will not permit it. He is truth, His word is truth. 

It is not so much that I know the Bible. It is that I trust God above all else.

Got it?


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 11, 2011)

Hello gtparts, I agree, that the bible "communicates what God intends to communicate". Knowing that it contains errors does nothing to hinder the communication of whole of context. Sometimes, I think that I should not point them out cause some people will think they can't trust any of it. Othertimes, I think I should, so that we can learn to deal with it.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 11, 2011)

gtparts said:


> With the guidance of the Holy Spirit, God's written word communicates perfectly what God intends for it to communicate. He will never forsake me, nor will His word mislead me. If one cannot rely on His word, neither can one rely on Him. The Perfect One does not speak imperfection. His very nature will not permit it. He is truth, His word is truth.
> 
> It is not so much that I know the Bible. It is that I trust God above all else.
> 
> Got it?



I got it.  And I agree.

I trust it explicitly.  For me, it is clear, concise, honest, and simple.

It's never let me down.

But, then again, I've never looked at it as though it has errors.

I have confidence in God.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 11, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello gtparts, I agree, that the bible "communicates what God intends to communicate". Knowing that it contains errors does nothing to hinder the communication of whole of context. Sometimes, I think that I should not point them out cause some people will think they can't trust any of it. Othertimes, I think I should, so that we can learn to deal with it.



In my 45 years of dealing with people who've found error in God's word I've never found one single point that I agreed with them on.
In my life today, I don't even give them an ear.


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## formula1 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Re:*

When the scriptures are searched to prove a point that a man wants to prove according to the natural mind, flaws in the scriptures abound.

But when man seeks the heart of God, He finds it in the scriptures wholly and completely and without error. I find God's revealed word absolutely true and without flaw by the Holy Spirit. Inerrant is absolute fact, properly understood!

Anyone who does not is completely searching from the natural mind and his thinking is flawed.  I'll go so far to say that anyone who is publically speaking about such 'flaws' and says he believes, is not carry out the commission that Christ has entrusted him and is leading many astray.  May God help such a person who causes little ones to stumble!

Matthew 18:5-6  
5 "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Romans 14:21
It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.

1 John 3:18
Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.


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## thedeacon (Mar 12, 2011)

gtparts said:


> My daddy's daddy had a word for this. It was "Hogwash".  Still is!



I agree with your daddy's daddy, 100% and I love his country vocaulary. It's classy yet understandable.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 12, 2011)

Would you guys like me to point out a few or would you rather pretend they don't exist?


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## gtparts (Mar 12, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Would you guys like me to point out a few or would you rather pretend they don't exist?



Give us one at a time. That way the thread can follow each example you offer up.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 12, 2011)

Here is a simple one, insignificant as far as I'm concerned. --Was Jarius daughter "dying" as in Mark 5:23 +Lk 8:42 or was she already dead as in Matt 9:18?


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 12, 2011)

So far, most are standing firm that the bible has no errors. I'm expecting that after a few examples, most will dig in to try to debunk my points. There are many insignificant one's like the first one. Also, many that are debatable ,that I will not waste our time with, because by bending logic, someone will think that they have refuted them. But there are several that I consider major. As students of the bible, we should know our bibles, know where these contridictions are and be prepared to help the less mature stay firmly grounded when they encounter these verses. Just because they exist does in no way mean that these events did not happen. Our problem lies in mans attempt to record these events.


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## gtparts (Mar 12, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Here is a simple one, insignificant as far as I'm concerned. --Was Jarius daughter "dying" as in Mark 5:23 +Lk 8:42 or was she already dead as in Matt 9:18?



Do you want it in my own words, a link, or copy and paste?

  Seriously, do you really believe that any of the three accounts is complete, giving every last available detail, omitting nothing? 

Could it be that Jairus made two statements, not knowing at that time whether his daughter was still near death or had died during his journey to where Jesus was? Luke's account is taken from the recollection of someone else, in all probability, Mark, so it is not surprising that Luke's and Mark's stories seem so similar.

Let's look at Mark 5.

 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24358">21</sup> Jesus got into the  boat again and went back to the other side of the lake, where a large  crowd gathered around him on the shore. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24359">22</sup> Then a leader of the local synagogue, whose name was Jairus, arrived. When he saw Jesus, he fell at his feet, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24360">23</sup>  pleading fervently with him. “My little daughter is dying,” he said.  “Please come and lay your hands on her; heal her so she can live.” <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24361">24</sup> Jesus went with him, and all the people followed, crowding around him. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24362">25</sup> A woman in the crowd had suffered for twelve years with constant bleeding. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24363">26</sup>  She had suffered a great deal from many doctors, and over the years she  had spent everything she had to pay them, but she had gotten no better.  In fact, she had gotten worse. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24364">27</sup> She had heard about Jesus, so she came up behind him through the crowd and touched his robe. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24365">28</sup> For she thought to herself, “If I can just touch his robe, I will be healed.” <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24366">29</sup> Immediately the bleeding stopped, and she could feel in her body that she had been healed of her terrible condition.
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24367">30</sup> Jesus realized at once that healing power had gone out from him, so he turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my robe?”
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24368">31</sup> His disciples said to him, “Look at this crowd pressing around you. How can you ask, ‘Who touched me?’”
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24369">32</sup> But he kept on looking around to see who had done it. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24370">33</sup>  Then the frightened woman, trembling at the realization of what had  happened to her, came and fell to her knees in front of him and told him  what she had done. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24371">34</sup> And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace. Your suffering is over.”
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24372">35</sup>  While he was still speaking to her, messengers arrived from the home of  Jairus, the leader of the synagogue. They told him, “Your daughter is  dead. There’s no use troubling the Teacher now.”
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24373">36</sup> But Jesus overheard them and said to Jairus, “Don’t be afraid. Just have faith.”
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24374">37</sup> Then Jesus stopped the crowd and wouldn’t let anyone go with him except Peter, James, and John (the brother of James). <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24375">38</sup> When they came to the home of the synagogue leader, Jesus saw much commotion and weeping and wailing. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24376">39</sup> He went inside and asked, “Why all this commotion and weeping? The child isn’t dead; she’s only asleep.”
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24377">40</sup>  The crowd laughed at him. But he made them all leave, and he took the  girl’s father and mother and his three disciples into the room where the  girl was lying. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24378">41</sup> Holding her hand, he said to her, _“Talitha koum,”_ which means “Little girl, get up!” <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24379">42</sup> And the girl, who was twelve years old, immediately stood up and walked around! They were overwhelmed and totally amazed. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-24380">43</sup> Jesus gave them strict orders not to tell anyone what had happened, and then he told them to give her something to eat.


Perhaps Matthew introduces the story around Mark 5, verse 35 and 36 in his account, omitting some of the earlier details. If those who  chronicled this event heard different conversations or used similar wording to indicate the urgency of the situation, we can certainly understand that the girl was either dead or as good as dead, the distinction being difficult to determine by the time-line. It could even be that Jairus misspoke to speed Jesus up or he may have been having a hard time communicating clearly under the stress of the situation.

Here is a link for two plausible explanations for the apparent discrepancy you suggest.


http://www.apologeticspress.org/AllegedDiscrepancies.aspx?article=642


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 12, 2011)

Hey that's an interesting link. I bookmarked it. I'll spend some time there. It's all interesting. I scaned it over briefly, since they seem to be thorough, I wanted to see what they had to say about the resurrection account. Side by side comparison leaves one scratching his head. In Mk, Mary told by an angel that he is risen. Matt account says that Jesus met them on the way back to tell the others. Why in John, Mary returning after having found an empty tomb, tells Peter, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb and we don't know where they put him".  This is very strange. Will be interesting to see if there are any logical explanations


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 13, 2011)

Mathews genealogy, between Jehoram and Uzziah is missing;  Jehoram father of Ahaziah, father of Joash, father of Amaziah, father of Uzziah. Matthew attemps to try to prove that God does something great every fourteen generations, thus proving that Jesus must be the Christ, David's promised desendant. But he left out three. So this was Matthews idea of using 14, not God's. Stranger yet, in the last 14 leading up to Jesus, there are only 13. I believe he is the Christ without any manipulation needed from Matthew. [See 2Ch 21-26]


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 13, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> In Mk, Mary told by an angel that he is risen. Matt account says that Jesus met them on the way back to tell the others. Why in John, Mary returning after having found an empty tomb, tells Peter, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb and we don't know where they put him".  This is very strange. Will be interesting to see if there are any logical explanations


 I assume that many have grabbed their bibles, hopeing to debunk this point about the resurection events. By now you have seen for yourself that my point is only a portion of the problem with the resurection account.  Sorry, but it's there.


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## christianhunter (Mar 13, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I assume that many have grabbed their bibles, hopeing to debunk this point about the resurection events. By now you have seen for yourself that my point is only a portion of the problem with the resurection account.  Sorry, but it's there.



I didn't grab my Bible,I refute everything you have implied.My only doubts are really about you.Read the WORD in Spirit and in Truth.


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## formula1 (Mar 13, 2011)

*Re:*



christianhunter said:


> I didn't grab my Bible,I refute everything you have implied.My only doubts are really about you.Read the WORD in Spirit and in Truth.



Amen. I could not have said it any better!


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 13, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> I didn't grab my Bible,I refute everything you have implied.My only doubts are really about you.Read the WORD in Spirit and in Truth.





formula1 said:


> Amen. I could not have said it any better!


--- What?---- If you have explanation, I would like to hear it. Otherwise I'm left only to think you can't refute the claim. If you can, then I stand corrected and rightly need to be at which time I will be indebted to you for keeping me from continuing in my error. If you can't, then why have attitude toward me because I know my bible? I'm not trying to be a bearer of bad news here.


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## formula1 (Mar 14, 2011)

*Re:*



1gr8bldr said:


> --- What?---- If you have explanation, I would like to hear it. Otherwise I'm left only to think you can't refute the claim. If you can, then I stand corrected and rightly need to be at which time I will be indebted to you for keeping me from continuing in my error. If you can't, then why have attitude toward me because I know my bible? I'm not trying to be a bearer of bad news here.



If you can answer this question truthfully, I will respond:

What is the central message of the Resurrection accounts in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John?


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 14, 2011)

formula1 said:


> If you can answer this question truthfully, I will respond:
> 
> What is the central message of the Resurrection accounts in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John?


 He is Risen!!!


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## formula1 (Mar 14, 2011)

*Re:*



1gr8bldr said:


> He is Risen!!!



Amen!

Now onto the resurrection accounts! You deserve a little more detail than I have been giving you!

To your specific question, could the accounts of Mary Magdeline be multiple ones(in John), occurring at different times?  I think possibly so, because Mark says that MM saw Jesus first, and John says that as well, plus the accounts (multiple in John) appears to be different times and contain different details. At any rate, I am absolutely certain it would be impossible to order these accounts chronologically and be sure of accuracy. Not being possible to determine accurate order, you can say they are different factually, but you cannot prove it.  One account provides some detail and yet another provides something else. This is where I turn to Holy Spirit 101, that is, find in the passage what God wants me to know and lay down the rest, that is, until God wants me to know something else. God has NEVER wanted to teach me error either, only TRUTH.  They that worship Him must worship in flesh and error? No, They that worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth. This what we are called to do as believers.

Most modern day judges and legal minds will tell you that if there are 4 witnesses saying the exact same things, the witness is far more likely to be discounted because it speaks of co-oberation. On this account the 4 variations prove valid as they are somewhat similar, but not the same.  This adds credibility to all the accounts.

Four different authors, each with their unique point of view are extremely likely to incorporate many different details.  Yet as you have said, the central purpose was conveyed.  So they were extremly successful weren't they.  How did 4 different personalities convey a central truth?  I submit to you, by the Holy Spirit. Yet they all added their own style and personality and point of view to their account.  This adds richness to the scripture far beyond the same old identical boring story. Thank you Lord for doing that and making your word alive.

I again remind you in all love and honesty, to consider a Godly purpose in all you do, especially when it comes to rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Your focus has been on semantic details that do not change the central truth. If you wish to go on in this manner, you have that right.  But we on this forum would also have the right to ignore you. God ask us to test the Spirits. yet only concerning central or essential truth (see 1 John 4). Jesus, Sin, God, the Holy Spirit, Salvation, Discipleship, the Resurrection, Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, these are the essentials. And the details will not ever alter the essential truths.

Now if you understand the central truth and believe, what value is it for you to find fault with a portion of the account? In fact, what value is it to me or to anyone reading this? In the search for truth by the Spirit, does one go on a witch hunt of falsehood? Why would any believer consider such a thing? Could it be it is not truth you are searching for, but fuel to discredit one who describes scripture as 'inerrant', perhaps  because they seek to discredit you? Yet, is that what God would want you or I to do?

I would not dare to tell you how to to live your life or read your Bible.  I can only ask you to seek the higher things of God, His truths. Undersrtand His word by the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit and not by the natural mind, which will always find fault. Find Truth!  Be a servant to the Father in the highest way! He said, Go! Preach the Good News! to Every Creature! Let's do this and bring Glory to Him and not ourselves!  

God Bless!


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 15, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Amen!
> 
> Now onto the resurrection accounts! You deserve a little more detail than I have been giving you!
> 
> ...


Hello formula1, I appreciate you responding. I would like to say one last thing on this matter and then I will refrain from responding again, giving you the last word if you so chose. Our discussion originated over whether the bible has errors or not. I posted a couple. Now let me present a example, I'm sure you have friends, lets just say that a young man, just getting excited about his new found faith, possibly from your church. Maybe you are his church mentor, knowingly or unknowingly. He has been reading his bible, has found great interest in knowing all there is to know about his Lord and Savior, reads much, not like others who read devotional style, but really spends some time studying. He has come across one of the questionable scriptures that I have posted. Now he is stumped. He immediatly has question so he thinks he will ask someone wiser, someone he looks up to. He chooses you. If you give him the same answer you gave to me, you may loose that young man. I'm not afraid to tell someone that the bible does contain some errors made by man trying to convey the truth of the greater context. We as mature bible students have a responsibility to help nuture those weaker in the faith, especially to help them stay firmly grounded in times of question. This is my last post on this matter, God Bless


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## formula1 (Mar 15, 2011)

*Re:*

1gr8bldr:

I only have love for you, desiring for you to understand the Spirit of Truth.  And even though you are quite the offense, I still want those scales to fall from your eyes.  I will continually pray for the Spirit of God to open your eyes to His truth. 

I spoke to you clearly and hid nothing. If anyone is to follow Christ, they are to lay down their natural minds for the things of the Spirit of God. You have not done that and  the message would be the same to your hypothetical young man. I will only give you several scriptures to ponder. The Word of God is the Sword of the Spirit (Ephesians 6) but you have no spiritual weapon by your very accusation. No Communication, None. You have man's wisdom, yes, but what do you have at the end of the day?  

This is my final comment to you and my hope is that you will hear!  May God through His Love, by the Power of the Grace and Truth of Christ, and by the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, open your heart to Him.

Romans 8:5-6
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.

Romans 8:14
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

1 Corinthians 2:11-14
For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for 
they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Galatians 3:1-3
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Galatians 5:16-18 
16 But I say,walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 15, 2011)

formula1 said:


> 1gr8bldr:
> 
> I only have love for you, desiring for you to understand the Spirit of Truth.  And even though you are quite the offense, I still want those scales to fall from your eyes.  I will continually pray for the Spirit of God to open your eyes to His truth.
> 
> ...


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 15, 2011)

Sad thing, on another forumn that I frequent, a poster is asking questions over and over about the contridictions that he has found. Undisputable, ones that I have never seen before, no bending of logic will do for those he is talking about. He must be a deep thinker. But rather than discuss these things with him, everyone is responding as if he were blind. This guy is now posting that he is "losing his faith", "reconsidering". How sad that people are doing harm by condemning him rather than helping to keep him strong in his faith. I may at a later time point out those that he found, he is surely not a "surface" thinker. I don't want to now because it will cloud out my point


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## gordon 2 (Mar 15, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Sad thing, on another forumn that I frequent, a poster is asking questions over and over about the contridictions that he has found. Undisputable, ones that I have never seen before, no bending of logic will do for those he is talking about. He must be a deep thinker. But rather than discuss these things with him, everyone is responding as if he were blind. This guy is now posting that he is "losing his faith", "reconsidering". How sad that people are doing harm by condemning him rather than helping to keep him strong in his faith. I may at a later time point out those that he found, he is surely not a "surface" thinker. I don't want to now because it will cloud out my point



I would suggest to someone like the poster you indicate with the issues he/she has, that he/she study how historians write histories. I think he/she will be surprised and much will be answered. Also, a study of how translations loose in the details ...etc..

I would also suggest a study of who wrote the individual gospels, to who they were writing, and what their possible sources were.

I think his/her lack of knowledge of these is the real reason why he/she is not getting the answers he/she feels he should be getting.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 16, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I'm trying to recall, but I seem to remember that the "capitalization" comes from the translators and not from the original. Someone verify this please. Also, if the whole bible was "God's word", it would be perfect, without error, but it is not without error. Those who wish it to be without error are only kidding themselves. Religious tunnel vision. It's a man made book. But it still contains truth



Do you really believe it's only a man made book??  Really?

Maybe you just don't understand the scripture?
Matthew 22:29
But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.

Maybe your mind hasn't been opened.
Luke 24:45
Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

It seemed to be good enough for these Christians.
Acts 17:11
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Maybe you're using the scriptures incorrectly.
Romans 15:4
For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Is it possible that even though it might seem incorrect to you it might still be inspired?  Maybe?
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
In this above verse, Paul was including all the writings of Moses.  They were all a part of the scrolls.
New Testament hadn't been written yet.

God never asked you or Jawl to 'straighten' it out.
2 Peter 1:20
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

2 Peter 3:16
........................which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 16, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Do you really believe it's only a man made book??  Really?
> 
> Maybe you just don't understand the scripture?
> Matthew 22:29
> ...


Hi Ronnie, This is exactly the kind of responses that the guy I pointed out is getting. Now he is wise enough to know that what he is seeing is real. Unlike others, he can not pretend it's not there. Do I really think it's a man made book? No, I hope that is not how I conveyed it. I would say that it is God inspired, recorded by man, therefore containing some of man's mistakes. When Paul said "all scripture is God breathed", he was simply writing a letter with no possible idea that his letter would one day become part of scripture. He was refering to the OT. Here is something you might find interesting, 1 Cor 7:10, To the married I give this command, not I, *but the Lord.*  12, To the rest I say this, I, *not the Lord.*. I gave a couple clear contridictions and you say I don't understand, my mind hasn't been opened. To the non religious, such as the athiest who frequent here, responses like yours that deny what is plainly stated, like the Matthew genealogy problem, makes Christianity look like a joke. *So I ask you, which is right? Matthews account -or- 2 Chron 21-26?????  Will you answer???  Who made this mistake???  God or man???*


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 16, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> I would suggest to someone like the poster you indicate with the issues he/she has, that he/she study how historians write histories. I think he/she will be surprised and much will be answered. Also, a study of how translations loose in the details ...etc..
> 
> I would also suggest a study of who wrote the individual gospels, to who they were writing, and what their possible sources were.
> 
> I think his/her lack of knowledge of these is the real reason why he/she is not getting the answers he/she feels he should be getting.


 Thank you for your response and for not preaching to me with scripture verses.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 16, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hi Ronnie, This is exactly the kind of responses that the guy I pointed out is getting. Now he is wise enough to know that what he is seeing is real. Unlike others, he can not pretend it's not there. Do I really think it's a man made book? No, I hope that is not how I conveyed it. I would say that it is God inspired, recorded by man, therefore containing some of man's mistakes. When Paul said "all scripture is God breathed", he was simply writing a letter with no possible idea that his letter would one day become part of scripture. He was refering to the OT. Here is something you might find interesting, 1 Cor 7:10, To the married I give this command, not I, *but the Lord.*  12, To the rest I say this, I, *not the Lord.*. I gave a couple clear contridictions and you say I don't understand, my mind hasn't been opened. To the non religious, such as the athiest who frequent here, responses like yours that deny what is plainly stated, like the Matthew genealogy problem, makes Christianity look like a joke. *So I ask you, which is right? Matthews account -or- 2 Chron 21-26?????  Will you answer???  Who made this mistake???  God or man???*




Yessir.  You don't understand.

I would imagine this poor fellow has had some association with you or folks like you.
"Paul didn't think everything he said would be printed one day"!!!!!!

My my.
I would say you've become far too knowledgeable of God's Holy Word.
Quite often 'religious people' become educated beyond their intelligence.  When it happens they become a danger to themselves and others.

You think you've got it all figured out?
You'll see.  You'll see.
You're wrong.  Seriously wrong.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 16, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Yessir.  You don't understand.
> 
> I would imagine this poor fellow has had some association with you or folks like you.
> "Paul didn't think everything he said would be printed one day"!!!!!!
> ...


 Please answer the question I posted.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 16, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Yessir.  You don't understand.
> 
> I would imagine this poor fellow has had some association with you or folks like you.
> "Paul didn't think everything he said would be printed one day"!!!!!!
> ...



With all due respect my friend, is this not the way the church accused Knox and Calvin? I'm wondering if the issues here might not be looked at differently. From the perspective of the Lion yes, but also from that of the lamb as well?

Now with all due respect 1gr8bldr, what you call "mistakes" in "Who made this mistake??? God or man???" is your undoing. First of all in a bible in every clip culture mistakes are just not acceptable. And second, like others and I have stated before the scene changes with the angle of the camara so to speak--it is not error,but rather slight different angle--same scenery.


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## formula1 (Mar 16, 2011)

*Re:*



gordon 2 said:


> it is not error,but rather slight different angle--same scenery.



Gordon 2:
You say some brilliant things sometimes.  I especially like this one!

RonnieT:
My heart goes out to you as well and I appreciate your efforts!


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## HawgJawl (Mar 16, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hi Ronnie, This is exactly the kind of responses that the guy I pointed out is getting. Now he is wise enough to know that what he is seeing is real. Unlike others, he can not pretend it's not there. Do I really think it's a man made book? No, I hope that is not how I conveyed it. I would say that it is God inspired, recorded by man, therefore containing some of man's mistakes. When Paul said "all scripture is God breathed", he was simply writing a letter with no possible idea that his letter would one day become part of scripture. He was refering to the OT. Here is something you might find interesting, 1 Cor 7:10, To the married I give this command, not I, *but the Lord.*  12, To the rest I say this, I, *not the Lord.*. I gave a couple clear contridictions and you say I don't understand, my mind hasn't been opened. To the non religious, such as the athiest who frequent here, responses like yours that deny what is plainly stated, like the Matthew genealogy problem, makes Christianity look like a joke. *So I ask you, which is right? Matthews account -or- 2 Chron 21-26?????  Will you answer???  Who made this mistake???  God or man???*



In regard to Paul's writings to the church, I'd like to point out a couple examples of Paul indicating that at least a portion of what he was saying was his words as opposed to God's words.

1 Corinthians 7:6    This is only my suggestion. It's not meant to be an absolute rule.

1 Corinthians 7:12    Now, I will speak to the rest of you, though I do not have a direct command from the lord...

2 corinthians 11:17-18      Such bragging is not something the Lord wants, but I am acting like a fool. And since others boast about their human achievements, I will, too.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 16, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Thank you for your response and for not preaching to me with scripture verses.



You've come here preaching from scripture verses yet you are thankful that you aren't 'preached' to with scripture??

Now, my elevator don't always go to the top floor but that right there seems an odd statement from a Christian.

In all my 45plus Christian years, I've never once made that statement.  I don't think I've ever heard it except from people on the internet.  Wonder why someone would say that?


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## Ronnie T (Mar 16, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hi Ronnie, This is exactly the kind of responses that the guy I pointed out is getting. Now he is wise enough to know that what he is seeing is real. Unlike others, he can not pretend it's not there. Do I really think it's a man made book? No, I hope that is not how I conveyed it. I would say that it is God inspired, recorded by man, therefore containing some of man's mistakes. When Paul said "all scripture is God breathed", he was simply writing a letter with no possible idea that his letter would one day become part of scripture. He was refering to the OT. Here is something you might find interesting, 1 Cor 7:10, To the married I give this command, not I, *but the Lord.*  12, To the rest I say this, I, *not the Lord.*. I gave a couple clear contridictions and you say I don't understand, my mind hasn't been opened. To the non religious, such as the athiest who frequent here, responses like yours that deny what is plainly stated, like the Matthew genealogy problem, makes Christianity look like a joke. *So I ask you, which is right? Matthews account -or- 2 Chron 21-26?????  Will you answer???  Who made this mistake???  God or man???*



They both are correct.  Each written for it's own purpose.  Each spoken to provide instructions concerning proper living.
And if you'll study the things of the Gospel you and I, just like the Pharisees, will be able to see what God truly wants and expects from us all.

In my life, when there are scripture that confuse me I continue reading and praying and seeking God's wisdom so that I'll be able to accept them in God's holy way.
Everytime I read and meditate I learn something new.  It never stops.  And you'll keep learning also if you'll stay true to God's desire.  He'll reveal as much of Himself to you and I as we can understand.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 16, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> In regard to Paul's writings to the church, I'd like to point out a couple examples of Paul indicating that at least a portion of what he was saying was his words as opposed to God's words.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 7:6    This is only my suggestion. It's not meant to be an absolute rule.
> 
> ...



What do you think?  Do you suppose Paul made those statements completely on his own, or did the Spirit, which was guiding all his spiritual work lead him to make those statements?


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## HawgJawl (Mar 16, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> What do you think?  Do you suppose Paul made those statements completely on his own, or did the Spirit, which was guiding all his spiritual work lead him to make those statements?



Isn't it a contradictory statement to say that the Spirit actually led him to preface a statement with "the Spirit didn't lead me to say this"?


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## gordon 2 (Mar 16, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> You've come here preaching from scripture verses yet you are thankful that you aren't 'preached' to with scripture??
> 
> Now, my elevator don't always go to the top floor but that right there seems an odd statement from a Christian.
> 
> In all my 45plus Christian years, I've never once made that statement.  I don't think I've ever heard it except from people on the internet.  Wonder why someone would say that?




If a dying person moaned "I am hungry." and you called in a dietician to meet with that person tomorrow morning, who would consult with nursing in the afternoon, and  with the family in the evening or when they came in ( if you can catch them)  and then forward a recommendation to the cafateria next day after a team meeting, which will deliver the day following.... Well maybe the person by then just checked out. 

That is what it feels like sometimes to be preached at with scripture--when a little water on the lips was the thing to do.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 16, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Isn't it a contradictory statement to say that the Spirit actually led him to preface a statement with "the Spirit didn't lead me to say this"?



No! The body is willing but the mind gets tired.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 16, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> You've come here preaching from scripture verses yet you are thankful that you aren't 'preached' to with scripture??
> 
> Now, my elevator don't always go to the top floor but that right there seems an odd statement from a Christian.
> 
> In all my 45plus Christian years, I've never once made that statement.  I don't think I've ever heard it except from people on the internet.  Wonder why someone would say that?


Ronnie, I commented on my opinion of whether the scriptures have errors. I gave you a couple that were unbendable. That in no way is preaching to show the verses that prove my point. But you and Formula have insulted me with your using scripture to preach to me. Need I point out the subject of the verses you and formula posted against me. One example "Oh foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you". So who is preaching with scripture here.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 16, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> They both are correct.  Each written for it's own purpose.  Each spoken to provide instructions concerning proper living.
> And if you'll study the things of the Gospel you and I, just like the Pharisees, will be able to see what God truly wants and expects from us all.
> 
> In my life, when there are scripture that confuse me I continue reading and praying and seeking God's wisdom so that I'll be able to accept them in God's holy way.
> Everytime I read and meditate I learn something new.  It never stops.  And you'll keep learning also if you'll stay true to God's desire.  He'll reveal as much of Himself to you and I as we can understand.


 They are both correct.  Religious tunnel vision!  If you hadn't insulted me, I'd let you off the hook a long time ago. How about you formula, Is Matthew's genalogy correct or is there three more found in Chron????  Maybe you also think they are both right.


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## HawgJawl (Mar 16, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> No! The body is willing but the mind gets tired.



Lets see if I got this straight;

Paul said that it was his own words (Paul's words).

The Holy Spirit told Paul what to say, therefore it was not actually Paul's words, even though Paul said that it was.

The Holy Spirit told Paul to prefaced his statement with "these are my words".

The Holy Spirit told Paul to lie.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 16, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Isn't it a contradictory statement to say that the Spirit actually led him to preface a statement with "the Spirit didn't lead me to say this"?



It isn't a contradictory statement to me.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 16, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> If a dying person moaned "I am hungry." and you called in a dietician to meet with that person tomorrow morning, who would consult with nursing in the afternoon, and  with the family in the evening or when they came in ( if you can catch them)  and then forward a recommendation to the cafateria next day after a team meeting, which will deliver the day following.... Well maybe the person by then just checked out.
> 
> That is what it feels like sometimes to be preached at with scripture--when a little water on the lips was the thing to do.



True, but in this thread no one's asked for water.  And they disagree with what the head of the house has said on the subject.


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## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2011)

Look at the somersaults one has to go through to try and make it make sense.  It's almost less embarrassing to just say: "It don't make no sense but it's in the Good Book so it must be true."  Even I can't argue with that.


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## stringmusic (Mar 16, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Look at the somersaults one has to go through to try and make it make sense.  It's almost less embarrassing to just say: "It don't make no sense but it's in the Good Book so it must be true."  Even I can't argue with that.



The main theme of the Bible is very clear and simple. Most everything else is semantics.


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## HawgJawl (Mar 16, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Some people venerate the Bible to such a hallowed status that they begin to believe, and teach others, that salvation is dependent upon an unwavering belief that the Bible is the inerrant "Word" of God.  By doing so, these people exalt the Bible to such a sacred level that they conjoin the validity of scripture with the validity of Christianity.
> 
> This is evident by all the attempts to discredit Christianity by simply discrediting the Bible.



I stated this in the OP.

I'd like to add to this that some people venerate the prophets and apostles to such a hallowed status that they begin to believe, and teach others, that salvation is dependent upon an unwavering belief that every statement made by these humans was perfectly governed by God and the Holy Spirit and not a single word that is recorded could have ever possibly come from the man.

Kinda like a puppet, I guess.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 16, 2011)

Riding down the road, I realized that I had become mad about this thing. It is so strange, I have always been accepting when someone interprets things differently. I have always been accepting when someone believes differently than I. I recall the last time I got aggitated, same as now. Discussions involving "logic" are what makes me go crazy. I wish I had not got mad, but rather than edit it out since most have already seen me blow off some steam, I will simply say, I wish I had not.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 16, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Riding down the road, I realized that I had become mad about this thing. It is so strange, I have always been accepting when someone interprets things differently. I have always been accepting when someone believes differently than I. I recall the last time I got aggitated, same as now. Discussions involving "logic" are what makes me go crazy. I wish I had not got mad, but rather than edit it out since most have already seen me blow off some steam, I will simply say, I wish I had not.



Logic is not logical and full of anxieties.  My guess is that 99.9 % of folks can't balance their logic budgets and don't even know they are on one. The .1% that can balance their logic, usually eat alone.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 16, 2011)

If I expected logic from the scriptures I would be sadly disappointed.

Why did Jesus protect and forgive the woman caught in adultery?
Why did Jesus say a person who hated another was as guilty as the person who murdered another?
Why did Jesus just allow the Samaritan woman who had several husbands(I think) and was shackin up even now, why didn't Jesus demand that she straighten her life out?

None of it's logical.  But in reading and seeking the truth of everything of the scriptures a person will come to see the answers to all those, and other, illogical matters.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 16, 2011)

A few days ago a lady believer told me she was going to do a particular thing.  She said she had prayed about it and thought about it and even though the scriptures say "no" her 'heart' has lead her to do it anyway.
She says 'if her heart leads her to do it that means it's God's will'.
And so, she's doing something that is wrong and it will have an extreme negative impact on her family in the coming months.


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## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> A few days ago a lady believer told me she was going to do a particular thing.  She said she had prayed about it and thought about it and even though the scriptures say "no" her 'heart' has lead her to do it anyway.
> She says 'if her heart leads her to do it that means it's God's will'.
> And so, she's doing something that is wrong and it will have an extreme negative impact on her family in the coming months.



At the time of Abraham, would it have been against the scriptures to tie up and kill your son?  maybe she got instruction straight from the horse's (or donkey's) mouth.


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## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Logic is not logical and full of anxieties.  My guess is that 99.9 % of folks can't balance their logic budgets and don't even know they are on one. The .1% that can balance their logic, usually eat alone.





Ronnie T said:


> If I expected logic from the scriptures I would be sadly disappointed.
> 
> Why did Jesus protect and forgive the woman caught in adultery?
> Why did Jesus say a person who hated another was as guilty as the person who murdered another?
> ...



Quit thinkin' and just believe.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 16, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Quit thinkin' and just believe.



 Touchee. LOL What is the Magnum Opus of Logic....and is it totally without  soligistic mistakes or is it errors?


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## formula1 (Mar 16, 2011)

*Re:*



1gr8bldr said:


> Ronnie, I commented on my opinion of whether the scriptures have errors. I gave you a couple that were unbendable. That in no way is preaching to show the verses that prove my point. But you and Formula have insulted me with your using scripture to preach to me. Need I point out the subject of the verses you and formula posted against me. One example "Oh foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you". So who is preaching with scripture here.



Is that what you thought, that I insulted you, that I posted against you! With scriptures, are you kidding? I am no preacher, but I gave you the truth. None of them are insults to the one who hears! I am not offended by your anger though.   I am trying to help you and I'm sorry if you don't see that!  That is the truth from my heart!


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