# The Sabbaths



## hobbs27 (Oct 19, 2014)

Why do you, or why do you not observe them as a Christian?

There's these guys...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritan_Sabbatarianism

And these guys....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_seventh-day_churches


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## Israel (Oct 19, 2014)

Only those?


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## hobbs27 (Oct 19, 2014)

Israel said:


> Only those?



No, there's also these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_holidays

and others...and me 

 Id really like to hear from folks, why they observe on saturday or sunday, or etc.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 19, 2014)

It is the fourth commandment and clearly says the last day of the week which is saturday...do we break this commandment or does it not pertain to us as christians, if not why?

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it"


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## mtnwoman (Oct 19, 2014)

As far as Gen.1:1 goes, not sure of what day that would be...ie Monday-Sunday. The way I understand it is that God rested on the 7th day...whatever that day was.   

So I guess whatever you consider the 7th day to be. It was designated later when the calender was made. But are we to go by that?  We know we are suppose to labor and rest at least one day a week. To me that is Sunday...just going by a man written calender. But I suppose if you rest in the Lord one day a week you are keeping that one day (at least) a week set aside for just Him. 

I've not always worked a job that I was off on Sunday and many people can't, nurses, cops, utility folks, etc etc.  But still I always had at least one day off a week to rest in the Lord....guess that was my day to rest.

I do go to church on sunday and rest most, if not all day. But I can rest everyday in Him, now!!! Yay!


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 19, 2014)

Can you rest the day you worship or should it be another day? Don't some Jewish folk rest on Saturday their sabbath and worship on Sunday? That way the Rabbi doesn't have to work on the Sabbath.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 19, 2014)

Saturday is the seventh day on the Jewish calendar and is the day of the week that is commanded by the law as a day of rest. The seven ceremonial feasts of the Jews are also Sabbaths as in days of rest, but they did rejoice God.

In my studies of this I find some Jews and rabbis today are mor lax on the sabbath rest, but it was of the upmost importance in biblical times.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 19, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> As far as Gen.1:1 goes, not sure of what day that would be...ie Monday-Sunday. The way I understand it is that God rested on the 7th day...whatever that day was.
> 
> So I guess whatever you consider the 7th day to be. It was designated later when the calender was made. But are we to go by that?  We know we are suppose to labor and rest at least one day a week. To me that is Sunday...just going by a man written calender. But I suppose if you rest in the Lord one day a week you are keeping that one day (at least) a week set aside for just Him.
> 
> ...




So , do you believe Sunday is the Christian substitute for the Sabbath, therefore keeping the fourth commandment?


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## mtnwoman (Oct 19, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> So , do you believe Sunday is the Christian substitute for the Sabbath, therefore keeping the fourth commandment?



Mark 2:27 says, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." In other words, God established the Sabbath as a rest for His people, not because He needed a break, but because we are human and need a time of rest, of focus on God. In this, our spirits and bodies are both renewed.

Besides, I don't know of any churches that I'm willing to go to on Saturday.  I, like the Jews, follow tradition in my beliefs.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 19, 2014)

"*And on the day called Sunday*, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things." -- Justin Martyr, 2nd century


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## Israel (Oct 20, 2014)

I admit it, I'm a hog. 1/7 doesn't cut it for me.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Why do you, or why do you not observe them as a Christian?


I do not. Christ abolished it.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 20, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> "*And on the day called Sunday*, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things." -- Justin Martyr, 2nd century



Yep, They also went to the temple on the Sabbath while in Jerusalem and very much kept the Sabbath holy.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 20, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Mark 2:27 says, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." In other words, God established the Sabbath as a rest for His people, not because He needed a break, but because we are human and need a time of rest, of focus on God. In this, our spirits and bodies are both renewed.
> 
> Besides, I don't know of any churches that I'm willing to go to on Saturday.  I, like the Jews, follow tradition in my beliefs.



The day of rest was a shadow of things to come like the new moon and feasts. God indeed made the Sabbath for man.

 Love your honesty in following tradition.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 20, 2014)

Israel said:


> I admit it, I'm a hog. 1/7 doesn't cut it for me.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 20, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I do not. Christ abolished it.



When and how?


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## centerpin fan (Oct 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Yep, They also went to the temple on the Sabbath while in Jerusalem and very much kept the Sabbath holy.



The Jewish converts did, not the Gentiles.


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## ryanh487 (Oct 20, 2014)

God established the 7th day Sabbath at creation, and for thousands upon thousands of years the 7th day of the week is recognized as what we call Saturday.  Definition of Saturday in the dictionary? The seventh day of the week.  The Jews recognize Sabbath as Saturday.  In hundreds of languages around the world, the word for Sabbath IS the word for Saturday (Sabado in Spanish, Subbota in Russian, etc).  God was very clear that HE had picked and sanctified the day, and it was not a decision for man to make.  REMEMBER THE Sabbath, and KEEP it Holy, not "Choose a Sabbath, and make it Holy".  As Christians, part of our loving obedience to Christ includes keeping the 4th Commandment as it was issued by Christ Himself at creation, and written as a reminder in stone on Mount Sinai by His finger.  He kept it, and in the Holy Spirit inspired message of the rest of the new testament it is made clear that He intended us to keep it as well.  Hebrews 4 lays it out pretty clearly, and James, John, and Paul all make it clear that if Christ lives in us and we love God, then obedience to ALL of the commandments will be a product of it.  "If any man says he loves God and does not keep his commandments, he is a liar and the truth is not in him."  "He who breaks even the least of the commandments is guilty of breaking them all."

There were 2 kinds of Sabbaths:  THE 7th day Sabbath observed every week as acknowledgement of God's authority as the creator, and "sabbaths", or seasonal feasts, that were as symbolic markers to both remind the Jews of what God had done for them and remind them of his promises.  "sabbaths" were shadows and the law of paper, THE Sabbath is permanent and the law of stone and has existed since creation, and as the prophets tell us, in Heaven itself.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Yep, They also went to the temple on the Sabbath while in Jerusalem and very much kept the Sabbath holy.



Did Jesus 'ever' sin?

One of the things He was accused of was healing someone on the sabbath. Who accused Him, God or others?


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## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

From this, the rabbis concluded that the work prohibited on the Shabbat is the same as the work of creating the sanctuary.

They found 39 categories of forbidden acts, all of which are types of work that were needed to build the sanctuary:

Sowing	Plowing	Reaping	Binding sheaves	Threshing	Winnowing

Selecting	Grinding	Sifting	Kneading	Baking	

Shearing wool Washing wool	Beating wool	Dyeing wool	Spinning	Weaving	Making two loops
Weaving threads	Separating threads	Tying	Untying	Sewing two stitches	Tearing

Trapping	Slaughtering	Flaying	Salting meat	Curing hide	Scraping hide Cutting hide up	

Writing two letters	Erasing two letters	

Building	Tearing a building down	

Extinguishing a fire Kindling a fire	

Hitting with a hammer.	

Transporting an object from the private domain to the public domain

All of these tasks are prohibited, as well as any task that operates by the same principle or has the same purpose. In addition, the rabbis have prohibited coming into contact with any implement that could be used for one of the above purposes (for example, you may not touch a hammer or a pencil), travel, buying and selling, and other weekday tasks that would interfere with the spirit of Shabbat. 

The use of electricity is prohibited because it serves the same function as fire or some of the other prohibitions, or because it is technically considered to be "fire."

So I guess if we do any of this stuff, we aren't keeping the Sabbath holy.


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## ryanh487 (Oct 20, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Did Jesus 'ever' sin?
> 
> One of the things He was accused of was healing someone on the sabbath. Who accused Him, God or others?



The Jews had created hundreds of their OWN, MANMADE laws about the Sabbath after their return from Exile in Babylon.  One of God's primary reasons for their exile was their failure to keep His Sabbath, so in order to "ensure" that God never got mad at them they adopted a works based religious structure.  Jesus did not break GOD's Sabbath Law, he broke the Jewish leaders' Sabbath law. His teaching was that God's Sabbath is a blessing, not a burden, and the jews had turned Sabbath-keeping into a burden with their legalistic rules instead of an act of worship and love to God as it was intended.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

Entire text, but if you don't wanna read all that at least read the last 3 paragraphs.

The word sabbath is from the Hebrew word SHABÀT, meaning ‘cessation,’ or 
‘time of rest.’  In the beginning God worked, but he also rested.  Work and rest 
are both in God’s plan, and both are in nature.  God finishes all that he starts.  

His created works were finished.  Genesis 2:1,
                Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all their multitude. 

     God’s work has no accidents.  God planned his creative work to be finished 
in six days.  His rest time likewise is not accidental but is planned.  Gen. 2:2-3,

                And on the seventh day God finished the work that he had done,
                and he rested on the seventh day from all the work that he had done. 
                So God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it, because on it
                God rested from all the work that he had done in creation. 

     The Bible allows commemorative sabbaths (rest days) for various occasions.  
All main feast days are sabbaths (rest days) and are dated from the new moon.  
The word sabbath is used Biblically in more than one way: as a memorial day, 
as a main feast day, or as the seventh day following a six-day work span. 

     The Bible frequently mentions the seventh day sabbath.  This day is important 
for it is one of ten covenant laws commanded by Moses to the people of Israel.  
Deut. 5:1-21; Ex. 20:1-17 (vv 8-11 quoted),
                Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy. 
                For six days you shall labour and do all your work.  But the seventh day 
                is a sabbath to the LORD your God; you shall not do any work—
                you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave,
                your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.  
                For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth,
                the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day;
                therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it. 

     God did not at first speak this law for all people, else he would have told it to 
Noah as part of his covenant for the whole world (Gen. 8:21-22—9:1-17), but the 
law of sabbath will become law for the whole world in the Messianic New Earth.  
The Sabbath will be observed by all peoples. 
Isaiah 56:6-7,
                And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD,
                to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants,
                all who keep the sabbath, and do not profane it,
                and hold fast my covenant—these I will bring to my holy mountain,
                and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt-offerings
                and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar;
                for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples. 

     The Messianic kingdom will bring the earth in line with God’s law.  Sabbaths 
will be observed in the New Earth (Ezekiel 44:24).     Isaiah 66:22-23,
                For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make,
                shall remain before me, says the LORD,
                so shall your descendants and your name remain. 
                From new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath,
                all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the LORD. 
Eze. 46:1,3,
v 1,          Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east
                shall remain closed on the six working days; but on the sabbath day
                it shall be opened and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened. 
v 3,          The people of the land shall bow down at the entrance of that gate
                before the LORD on the sabbaths and on the new moons. 

     The Bible links new moon observance with seventh day sabbath observance 
in agrarian communities.  New moons are sabbaths (rest days) and work should 
cease, as in any seventh day sabbath.     Amos 8:5,
            ... saying, When will the new moon be over so that we may sell grain;
                and the sabbath, so that we may offer wheat for sale? 

     In the Bible, new moons are the beginnings of months and have reference to 
calendar time keeping.  Months are critical time dividers in agrarian societies.  
The first day of every month is set apart as a sabbath and there is no work.  
The first day of a month is a sanctification.  But six days of work with a following 
seventh day of rest is a commemoration of God’s finished creation work.  This 
reminds us that all things are God’s creations and He wants us to keep sabbath 
in a manner pleasing to Him.     Isaiah 58:13-14,
                If you refrain from trampling the sabbath, from pursuing your own
                interests on my holy day; if you call the sabbath a delight, and the holy
                day of the LORD honourable; if you honour it, not going your own ways,
                serving your own interests, or pursuing your own affairs;
                then you shall take delight in the LORD, and I will make you ride
                upon the heights of the earth; I will feed you with the heritage
                of your ancestor Jacob, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken. 

     When God renews his covenant for earth he will again require seventh day 
sabbath keeping.  In Israel’s first covenant under Moses, Sabbath keeping was 
taken as a sign of covenant relation to God.  Ezekiel 20:19-20,
                I the LORD am your God; follow my statutes,
                and be careful to observe my ordinances,
                and hallow my sabbaths that they may be a sign between me and you,
                so that you may know that I the LORD am your God. 

     The Hebrew calendar law is given in Genesis 1:14-15,
                And God said, ‘Let there be lights in the dome of the sky
                to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and
                for seasons and for days and years, and let them be lights in the
                dome of the sky to give light upon the earth.’ And it was so. 

                (Heb. OTÒT, ‘signs’)    (Heb. MOA’DÌM, ‘fixed seasons, appointed times’)

     The only correct basis of time division is the three celestial light sources: the 
stars, sun and moon.  Stars define the year cycle from the sun’s position among 
the stars as seen from earth.  The sun defines a day cycle, called the solar day.  
The sun also divides the day into light and dark times—daytime and nighttime.  
The sun determines agricultural seasons of seedtime and harvest but these are 
not fixed, because seasons are relative to latitude.  The day length is relative to 
the earth’s rotational speed. 

     The moon determines the month cycle.  Unlike other calendars, the Hebrew 
calendar preserves months unaltered, usually going in a sequence of 30 days, 
29 days, 30 days, from new moon to new moon (just over 291/2 days).  There are 
twelve months (moon cycles) in a year, and there are also 107/8 additional days.  
The Hebrew calendar deals with this complexity by adding a thirteenth month 
when needed.  Twelve-month years have 354 or 355 days, thirteen-month years 
have 384 days.  We shall explain how the moon schedules the six working days 
and seventh day sabbath in the context of agrarian communities. 

     The signs of sky gazing in Genesis 1:14 are lunar phases.  These signs are not 
Zodiac signs (the Bible mentions MAZARÒT Zodiac sky signs only in Job 38:32).  
The moon is unlike the sun or stars because it has phases, which serve as signs 
for earth.  As the moon orbits earth, the moon phases are visual indicators of its 
position in orbit.  Each month has four moon phases with approximately seven 
days in each phase.  In the ancient past moon phases were taken as seven-day 
time markers.  In this way seven-day time units could be linked to the months, 
but the first day of the months (a new moon) is not counted.  The next day starts 
the count of four successive seven-day time units.  Jews count the days starting 
at sundown when moon phases are best seen.  Israel had this system until their 
captivity to Assyria and Babylon. 

     Moses' Law does not attach the Sabbath to any year calendar nor does he say 
it is an unbroken cycle.  He simply says in effect— ‘If you ever work so much as 
six days continuously you must rest the following day.’  A seventh-day sabbath 
was intended to follow six working days.  If a person does not need to work, he 
may decide to rest continuously on his own account, but then there is no longer 
a real reason to keep Sabbath; God's six working days are not being observed.  
(The Book of Proverbs counsels everyone to keep busy in some useful work.) 

     In any collective or agrarian society there should be common agreement for 
Sabbath observance, because then the Sabbath is not individual but collective.  
Some Jewish Rabbis accept that seventh-day sabbaths were timed according to 
moon phases in former times and that New Moons are special days not counted 
as part of any week.  This idea is further explained by various Bible teachers at 
http://www.lunarsabbath.com/  Babylon’s calendar had a seven-day unbroken 
cycle (the week cycle) and when Jews returned from Babylon they brought this 
system back with them; so we are saddled with this concept until now. 

     Based on Genesis 1:14 the moon phase system is reasonable for any agrarian 
or collective community.  But the primary law that governs Sabbath keeping is 
Moses Law: a seventh-day rest can only be after six working days.  If we can 
identify the meaning of seventh-day sabbaths in this way, Sabbath keeping in 
modern settings can be directly applied to any individual’s own timing system, 
(no more tied to traditional calendars).


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## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

"Because of the differences between the solar and lunar systems of timekeeping, the Old Testament festivals that were linked to the New Moon fell at a general time, but the specific dates according to our solar calendar would vary.  They are called movable feasts because of this variance.  The Hebrew and later Jewish calendar established the time for the major festivals of the Old Testament. Since several of those Old Testament festivals figure prominently in the New Testament, the times they are observed were also adapted into Christian tradition. That explains why Easter (related to Old Testament Passover, since Holy Week occurred during the Passover Festival) and Pentecost (figured from the date of Passover) are movable feasts in Christian tradition; that is, they are calculated by the moon and not by the solar calendar, and so fall on different dates. The differences between Christian Easter and Jewish Passover are due to the development of different calendars during the last 2,000 years"

Who even knows what day the 7th day falls on?  It cannot be only saturday or sunday, can it? That was designated by man.


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## formula1 (Oct 20, 2014)

*Re:*

Keeping rules and regulations won't attain anything, but if Christ is you life and you live by the Spirit in Him, He is all that matters anytime and you worship Him all the time.  Better for us to concern ourselves with what defiles us be sure that everything that is good in Christ comes out of us through love from a pure heart! And do this everyday!  Make it who you are!

Matthew 15
10 And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.”

John 4:24
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

John 8:36
So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.


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## ryanh487 (Oct 20, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Entire text, but if you don't wanna read all that at least read the last 3 paragraphs.
> 
> The word sabbath is from the Hebrew word SHABÀT, meaning ‘cessation,’ or
> ‘time of rest.’  In the beginning God worked, but he also rested.  Work and rest
> ...



God is very specific in the Commandment.  If you told someone "bring me THAT chair" and they brought you something different, would you consider them to have obeyed?  On the contrary, you can say "bring me A chair", and have no complaint over which they return with.  The concept of a 7 day week is derived from creation, and no such cycle is evident in nature, whether by moon or stars or other sign.  Months are lunar.  Weeks are purely numbered off, and there has been no change in the number or order of days of the week in history.  A week is 7 days regardless of the lunar cycle, and day 7 is day 7 regardless of what time of the month or what month it falls into. It is based on the calendar 7 day week, not your work schedule. On the contrary, God says to work the 6 previous days, not "work 6 days and then rest".  He says Rest, but on the other 6 days, work.  He set the 7th day by His time in the desert with the raining of Manna. The Jews knew which day was day 7 because the penalty for violating it was DEATH.  You cannot issue a death penalty when someone can say "Oh no, but this is only "my" 5th day of the week".


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## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

formula1 said:


> Keeping rules and regulations won't attain anything, but if Christ is you life and you live by the Spirit in Him, He is all that matters anytime and you worship Him all the time.  Better for us to concern ourselves with what defiles us be sure that everything that is good in Christ comes out of us through love from a pure heart! And do this everyday!  Make it who you are!
> 
> Matthew 15
> 10 And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.”
> ...


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## hobbs27 (Oct 20, 2014)

ryanh487 said:


> God established the 7th day Sabbath at creation, and for thousands upon thousands of years the 7th day of the week is recognized as what we call Saturday.  Definition of Saturday in the dictionary? The seventh day of the week.  The Jews recognize Sabbath as Saturday.  In hundreds of languages around the world, the word for Sabbath IS the word for Saturday (Sabado in Spanish, Subbota in Russian, etc).  God was very clear that HE had picked and sanctified the day, and it was not a decision for man to make.  REMEMBER THE Sabbath, and KEEP it Holy, not "Choose a Sabbath, and make it Holy".  As Christians, part of our loving obedience to Christ includes keeping the 4th Commandment as it was issued by Christ Himself at creation, and written as a reminder in stone on Mount Sinai by His finger.  He kept it, and in the Holy Spirit inspired message of the rest of the new testament it is made clear that He intended us to keep it as well.  Hebrews 4 lays it out pretty clearly, and James, John, and Paul all make it clear that if Christ lives in us and we love God, then obedience to ALL of the commandments will be a product of it.  "If any man says he loves God and does not keep his commandments, he is a liar and the truth is not in him."  "He who breaks even the least of the commandments is guilty of breaking them all."
> 
> There were 2 kinds of Sabbaths:  THE 7th day Sabbath observed every week as acknowledgement of God's authority as the creator, and "sabbaths", or seasonal feasts, that were as symbolic markers to both remind the Jews of what God had done for them and remind them of his promises.  "sabbaths" were shadows and the law of paper, THE Sabbath is permanent and the law of stone and has existed since creation, and as the prophets tell us, in Heaven itself.



Do you observe both sabbaths?

You're absolutely correct on this although I wonder why Christians in general don't observe the Sabbath s? The feast sabbaths were a reminder and also a shadow of things to come, which gets really good in the studies of Christ.


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## ryanh487 (Oct 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Do you observe both sabbaths?
> 
> You're absolutely correct on this although I wonder why Christians in general don't observe the Sabbath s? The feast sabbaths were a reminder and also a shadow of things to come, which gets really good in the studies of Christ.



I observe the weekly Sabbath, but not the seasonal sabbaths.  I participate if invited to such an event and see nothing wrong with remembering the good things God has done, but the sabbaths are not a part of the eternal law, just a symbol.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 20, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> The Jewish converts did, not the Gentiles.



Can you show evidence of this in the bible? I know Paul was grilled and finally won the argument to not circumcise the Gentile convert, but I see where the Gentile did observe the Sabbath in Acts 13:14-15 as context to 13:42-44.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

formula1 said:


> Keeping rules and regulations won't attain anything, but if Christ is you life and you live by the Spirit in Him, He is all that matters anytime and you worship Him all the time.  Better for us to concern ourselves with what defiles us be sure that everything that is good in Christ comes out of us through love from a pure heart! And do this everyday!  Make it who you are!
> 
> Matthew 15
> 10 And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.”
> ...



How is sinning different than not keeping rules?

The Son sets us free but fruits are still needed to show us that the Son set us free. One must have the Holy Spirit as promised and his power is proof that the Son has set us free.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 20, 2014)

ryanh487 said:


> I observe the weekly Sabbath, but not the seasonal sabbaths.  I participate if invited to such an event and see nothing wrong with remembering the good things God has done, but the sabbaths are not a part of the eternal law, just a symbol.



I'm interested in how you differentiate between the weekly Sabbath s being Torah and the seasonal not.

Is this something that just pertains to Christians? If the seasonal Sabbath is no longer Torah, when and what changed them, but not the weekly?


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## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

ryanh487 said:


> I observe the weekly Sabbath, but not the seasonal sabbaths.  I participate if invited to such an event and see nothing wrong with remembering the good things God has done, but the sabbaths are not a part of the eternal law, just a symbol.



Absolutely!

I dated a Jewish guy in high school. His family owned the first retail stores that started being open on Sundays in Asheville.   When he celebrated any traditional Jewish holiday I was right up in there with him. Even though I believed in the NT at the time. This was before I met satan incarnate at the age of 23 and fell deep into darkness within a year. 

I was quite interested in how and why they celebrated.  And guess what? I never argued with them nor him about the Bible either, if you can believe that...LOL.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I'm interested in how you differentiate between the weekly Sabbath s being Torah and the seasonal not.
> 
> Is this something that just pertains to Christians? If the seasonal Sabbath is no longer Torah, when and what changed them, but not the weekly?



I know that question is not for me, but I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

Jesus for one example is our (Christians) Passover Lamb. The blood that saves us from God's wrath.

Chanukah is the celebration of the dedication of the temple to their saviour and also the festival of lights.
Jesus is in our temple, our Saviour. and we celebrate with lights...ie Light of the world which is Jesus.

Yom Kippur....day of atonement. Celebrated with a blood sacrifice for sin. We now have Jesus and His sacrificial blood in our lives, never to happen again, and our day of atonement is at hand.  Could the OT believers even grasp that's what it would be? I doubt it. We understand it now, but I don't believe most of them could comprehend what it would mean.

Comes out in the NT those OT celebrations for things that would come in the future. Did the Jews just not understand or recogize those things that were prophesied or just didn't believe that it was yet to come?


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## gemcgrew (Oct 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> When and how?


At the cross. He nailed it.


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## formula1 (Oct 20, 2014)

*Re:*



Artfuldodger said:


> How is sinning different than not keeping rules?
> 
> The Son sets us free but fruits are still needed to show us that the Son set us free. One must have the Holy Spirit as promised and his power is proof that the Son has set us free.



Upon who is your righteousness based (fruit), your efforts or Christ's? And what does good fruit look like?


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I do not. Christ abolished it.



King James Bible
Think not that I am come to destroy  the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Abolish and destroy mean the same thing, to bring something to an end.  



ful·fill
verb
bring to completion or reality; achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).

synonyms:	achieve, attain, realize, actualize, make happen, succeed in;  More
carry out (a task, duty, or role) as required, pledged, or expected.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

In response to the OP question.  I personally believe that if you believe in what John 3:16 says, you are saved. Does repenting, understanding, bearing fruit, discipleship, etc etc, come after you 'actually' believe that what that verse says is true, for without Christ we can do nothing on our own.

So if they (that you listed) believe that verse in your heart that they are saved.  I was indoctrinated as a Southern Baptist as a child.  With the help of Jesus and the HS, I have to come to 'fully' understand more of the 'truth.  I cannot help how I was taught, only the HS can convict me of such things.

Boy when I found out David danced nekkid in the street....I found a new way of worshipping. And trust me, there are times, I'd like to be able to do a cartwheel in 'church' or wherever I am when the spirit of the Lord falls upon me... LOL


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 20, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> King James Bible
> Think not that I am come to destroy  the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
> 
> Abolish and destroy mean the same thing, to bring something to an end.
> ...




And Jesus told us when all things were to be fulfilled and it wasn't at the cross.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Can you show evidence of this in the bible? I know Paul was grilled and finally won the argument to not circumcise the Gentile convert, but I see where the Gentile did observe the Sabbath in Acts 13:14-15 as context to 13:42-44.



Peter specifically told the Gentiles what was required of them in Acts 15, and he did not mention the Sabbath.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> And Jesus told us when all things were to be fulfilled and it wasn't at the cross.



I don't believe it all was either.

If so revelations shoulda been prophesied in the OT and moved to the OT.... Because that is what Jesus was talking about..the OT.
IMHO that is yet to come from the time of Christ. Part of it may have been fulfilled but I don't believe all of it. But I'm not worried about it one bit. Either way I'm  good...


----------



## gemcgrew (Oct 20, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> King James Bible
> Think not that I am come to destroy  the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
> 
> Abolish and destroy mean the same thing, to bring something to an end.


Thank you. Hobb's question was directed to the Christian.
That is the purpose of the law. Christ is the end of the law's purpose. The law led me to Christ... “But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

formula1 said:


> Upon who is your righteousness based (fruit), your efforts or Christ's? And what does good fruit look like?



My fruit is the effort of the Holy Spirit in the form of love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, & faithfulness.

If salvation was based on my effort I'm afraid I'd still be lost. 
But I also can't forget that one must repent from sinning and that Jesus said;
15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever.

It gets a little confusing between commandment keeping, fruits, and not sinning. 
Even more confusing is what of it all is from me and what of it all is from God?

On another thread you said;
(quote)But can I ask you this, do you think God would be God if He did not grant you the Holy Spirit to overcome sin? This was a basic promise at Pentecost you know ('You shall receive Power'). So then if we believe in Him we have the Power He gave as we have been born of God! So then why would we not overcome if indeed we follow Him?(quote)

Then someone else has said the Holy Spirit is a Helper.

So in regards to salvation to include the proof does the Holy Spirit help or actually perform these fruits?

We, as in the forum members, appear to go back and  forth depending on what thread we are on as to whether salvation is  free grace or is dependent on what we must do. We change what repentance is from a totally change from not sinning to just feeling remorseful for our sins.
We say that repentance is a change of mind to a change of lifestyle depending on the thread.
Either grace is from God alone or it is from God plus works but it can't be both.
Now if salvation is from God's grace then it would stand to reason the fruits of his Spirit are from God's grace.

If Jesus died for our sins, nailed the Law to the cross, why don't we just follow our hearts instead? I think there are a few verses about the law being written on our hearts. 
Do we really need much more than the Holy Spirit to teach us all things?


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## gemcgrew (Oct 20, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Peter specifically told the Gentiles what was required of them in Acts 15, and he did not mention the Sabbath.


I do not keep a sabbath day. I am resting fully in Christ.
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2:16,17)


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> In response to the OP question.  I personally believe that if you believe in what John 3:16 says, you are saved. Does repenting, understanding, bearing fruit, discipleship, etc etc, come after you 'actually' believe that what that verse says is true, for without Christ we can do nothing on our own.
> 
> So if they (that you listed) believe that verse in your heart that they are saved.  I was indoctrinated as a Southern Baptist as a child.  With the help of Jesus and the HS, I have to come to 'fully' understand more of the 'truth.  I cannot help how I was taught, only the HS can convict me of such things.
> 
> ...


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> mtnwoman said:
> 
> 
> > In response to the OP question.  I personally believe that if you believe in what John 3:16 says, you are saved. Does repenting, understanding, bearing fruit, discipleship, etc etc, come after you 'actually' believe that what that verse says is true, for without Christ we can do nothing on our own.
> ...


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 20, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Peter specifically told the Gentiles what was required of them in Acts 15, and he did not mention the Sabbath.



According to Acts 15:20-21 They were to write unto the Gentiles a message to be read on the Sabbath in the synagogues.

They also sent Judas and Silas to tell them by mouth...The whole context of this chapter dealt with circumcision only.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> According to Acts 15:20-21 They were to write unto the Gentiles a message to be read on the Sabbath in the synagogues.



That's not what the passage says.  It says the "law of Moses" is read on the Sabbath in every synagogue, not the letter from Peter and the apostles.

Also:

"So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message." v. 30-31

No mention of Sabbath and synagogues there.



hobbs27 said:


> They also sent Judas and Silas to tell them by mouth...The whole context of this chapter dealt with circumcision only.



Not circumcision only.

"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” v. 5


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## gemcgrew (Oct 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> According to Acts 15:20-21 They were to write unto the Gentiles a message to be read on the Sabbath in the synagogues.
> 
> They also sent Judas and Silas to tell them by mouth...The whole context of this chapter dealt with circumcision only.


A Transitional period in connection with the Jews. It is only mentioned a couple times in Romans - Revelation.

Colossians 2:16-17 and Hebrews 4:3-4, 9-11


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## formula1 (Oct 20, 2014)

*Re:*



Artfuldodger said:


> My fruit is the effort of the Holy Spirit in the form of love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, & faithfulness.



Art, I like that!  Then it doesn't come from you then, but Christ! Amen.

I can try to be righteous, I can try to follow the law, I can try to do this and that, but through my efforts I could never gain freedom! But with the Spirit of Christ in me through faith, I am righteous in Him!  Why?

2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

Romans 7 and 8 say it better than I ever could from the Spirit of God through the pen of Paul.  It is centered around this promise:

Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

It's a very common passage, but so true.  Why then do we act like we don't believe it?  

I want to believe and choose to believe His promises!  And yes, I sin, and yes, I fail but what I do or fail to do does not rule me, but the completed work of Christ Jesus my Lord and Savior has defeated 'me' already.  He is really working out a mystery inside of you and I whether we are aware of it or not.  Praise be to Christ!


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Artfuldodger said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, the starting point of repentance is remorse.  John 3:16 includes everyone....the offer is extended to everyone.  Some will except it, some won't.
> ...


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> 15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever.
> 
> It gets a little confusing between commandment keeping, fruits, and not sinning.
> Even more confusing is what of it all is from me and what of it all is from God?
> ...


  We don't need anything more. Don't move around in darkness, if you don't know what to do or what to believe, don't do anything but abide/rest in Him.  That will teach you some patience and allow you to survive 'longsuffering'.

Oh yeah and just to add, all this is getting more to the 'meat' of the Word. We don't start out eating or teaching 'meat' to a 'new born'.  First they are born again and they start learning as a babe. No use trying to teach all of these discussions to a 'new born', you'll get no where.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> So we've reached an agreement that drunkards can achieve salvation without ever recovering?



Have we?  

I'd say yes, if they are saved today and then die tomorrow. But then again God says a day is like 1000 years...if you wanna get into all that. 

From experience on drunkeness,  and all the other sins that go with it, lying about it, hiding in darkeness, unfaithfulness, unforgiving of self, etc etc....to me the 'heaviness' of conviction on my heart and in my spirit was much greater than the burden of drunkeness along with the other sins that go with it....I quit because of the power of the HS in me that I ask to help me, and had faith in believing He would lead me out.  So truly I was remorseful and sought not to continue. So I believe that a drunkard can still be saved but not yet overcome his affliction, same as I believe about gay people.  The first step is to let Christ help you and by His stripes we are healed. Only God knows if we are truly remorseful or not. Some may not see it in us, but we know and God knows, if our mind has been renewed to think differently....even though it usually takes time for our ignorant soul to catch up to the spirit in us that God renewed thru Christ. 

Should we continue in sin, absolutely not. Sometimes we have to learn how not to do it...Jesus is our Rabbi, our teacher.  Most of us have to learn how to overcome it. Oh how I wished I had been made perfect at my admittance of salvation in Christ. Geez I'd have been a perfect person since I was 12....think of all the fruit I could've produced in 52 years....then of course I'd expect others to be made perfect when they first believed in Christ.  Woulda been much easier on me and my family.....then uh oh....no debating or seeking, eh?


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 20, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> That's not what the passage says.  It says the "law of Moses" is read on the Sabbath in every synagogue, not the letter from Peter and the apostles.



I know what it says, but if they are not speaking of the reading of the letter in the synagogue it makes that verse bizarre and totally out of context.



centerpin fan said:


> Also:
> 
> "So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message." v. 30-31
> 
> No mention of Sabbath and synagogues there.



Does your version mention church? Mine doesnt.





centerpin fan said:


> Not circumcision only.
> 
> "Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” v. 5



This is the context, and we know it's not about the law as you have already pointed out they forbid them of some practices that were outside of the law. I think the reference is that by circumcision they were keeping the law, not in reference to the entire law.

15 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 

Also I have shown where the Gentiles did observe the sabbath  in Acts 13:14-15 as context to 13:42-44.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 20, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> I do not keep a sabbath day. I am resting fully in Christ.
> "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2:16,17)



Hebrews is written at a later date than Colossions, and I believe was also penned by Paul.

Notice in the 8th ch.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,


“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”

13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Becoming---at that time & is ready to disappear--- The old covenant was in its last hour but was still in effect.


This fits perfectly with the verses you brought out in Colossians.

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Are and not were.....is to come  and not has come---Therefore the law was not fulfilled at the cross.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I know what it says, but if they are not speaking of the reading of the letter in the synagogue it makes that verse bizarre and totally out of context.



I disagree.  I think it makes perfect sense as written.




hobbs27 said:


> Does your version mention church? Mine doesnt.



NIV uses "church".
KJV and NKJV use "multitude".
NASB uses "congregation".




hobbs27 said:


> This is the context, and we know it's not about the law as you have already pointed out they forbid them of some practices that were outside of the law. I think the reference is that by circumcision they were keeping the law, not in reference to the entire law.



The Pharisees were making this argument, so I'm not so sure.




hobbs27 said:


> Also I have shown where the Gentiles did observe the sabbath  in Acts 13:14-15 as context to 13:42-44.



Again, I'm not sure that's what that passage is teaching.  I think Acts 20:7 is much clearer, as is Justin Martyr and Ignatius of Antioch:

"Those who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).


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## hobbs27 (Oct 20, 2014)

I disagree.  I think it makes perfect sense as written.
Do you mind explaining it to me?



NIV uses "church".
KJV and NKJV use "multitude".
NASB uses "congregation".

The greek word is plēthos which makes multitude the proper translation. 




Again, I'm not sure that's what that passage is teaching.  I think Acts 20:7 is much clearer, as is Justin Martyr and Ignatius of Antioch:

"Those who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

Im just looking for biblical scripture concerning the first Christians, I know the church did not observe the sabbaths at the time  of Justin Martyr and Ignatius. Acts 20:7 is interesting and i'll research that more thanks.


----------



## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Thank you. Hobb's question was directed to the Christian.
> That is the purpose of the law. Christ is the end of the law's purpose. The law led me to Christ... “But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”



Ok, gotcha!  As usual, I'm off track here....duh...lol

How many blondes does it take to grasp a question??? Obviously more than one....


----------



## Israel (Oct 20, 2014)

I like rest, and I like festivals.
I like being told I am present at a place of rest and rejoicing, always. And I always need reminding. Man, am I glad for the one who never tires...and is commissioned to that.
That I may fail to believe this in whatever measure always becomes obvious, first in me, then through me. My work is trying to grab the spotlight, his work is to remind me the only eye that counts for anything, is always on me. Relax. See. Stop your own labors.
I have known the frustration of trying to unseat all for whom creation is made...and I don't yet see all that remains that can be tempted to try to do that. But there's a promise I cling to.
Rest is watching him work, at all times, in all things 24/7/365...while those numbers remain.
Love is easy. 
Not...is very very hard indeed.
Really, if God ever chose to make things "hard" for us...tell me, who is up for that?
Why do we struggle so hard against a kiss?


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I disagree.  I think it makes perfect sense as written.
> Do you mind explaining it to me?



I agree with Gill's comments:

_That is, for many years past, even from the times of Ezra, the law of Moses has been publicly expounded by them, whom the Jews call Derashim, preachers, or expounders, in every city where there was a synagogue; and every city belonging to the Jews, were obliged to build a synagogue, yea, they were obliged to do it where there were but ten Israelites : this is given by James as a reason why the Gentiles should be wrote unto concerning the above things; because that they hearing the law read and expounded every week, would be ready to conclude that they were obliged to submit unto it, as to circumcision, and other things; unless they were told that they were free from it; only in order to maintain peace with their brethren the Jews, it would be necessary for them to abstain from the above things: and it may also carry in it a reason, why the Jews need not be wrote unto, and why they had no reason to complain for thus writing to the Gentiles; since they had the law read and explained to them every week, and there would be no attempt to make any alteration in that form of service._ 

Regardless of your interpretation, it doesn't say the letter was to be read in the synagogues.




hobbs27 said:


> NIV uses "church".
> KJV and NKJV use "multitude".
> NASB uses "congregation".
> 
> The greek word is plÄ“thos which makes multitude the proper translation.



Probably so.  I would never argue the NIV is the most accurate translation.  Regardless of who was "gathered", however, it doesn't say they were gathered in the synagogues or on the Sabbath.




hobbs27 said:


> Again, I'm not sure that's what that passage is teaching.  I think Acts 20:7 is much clearer, as is Justin Martyr and Ignatius of Antioch:
> 
> "Those who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).
> 
> Im just looking for biblical scripture concerning the first Christians, I know the church did not observe the sabbaths at the time  of Justin Martyr and Ignatius. Acts 20:7 is interesting and i'll research that more thanks.



There's not that much scripture on the subject, which is why it's useful to look to people like Ignatius who knew the apostles.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 20, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> I disagree. I think it makes perfect sense as written.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Im trying really hard , maybe Im just not smart enough   :  But I still dont get it the way you're trying to present it, to me gills seems to confirm my argument that the gentiles were meeting in the synogouges.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Im trying really hard , maybe Im just not smart enough   :  But I still dont get it the way you're trying to present it, to me gills seems to confirm my argument that the gentiles were meeting in the synogouges.



First, Acts 15 does not say that the letter was to be read in the synagogues.  He just says we're gonna write them a letter.

Second, why would Gentiles have to go to synagogues to know the law?  Gill explicitly makes the point that the law had been "publicly expounded".  The Jewish faith was not unknown to the Gentiles.  I bet I could pass a test on the basics of Islam even though I've never been in a mosque and have never read the Koran.

Third, what's the point to all this?  Just an academic question?


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 21, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> First, Acts 15 does not say that the letter was to be read in the synagogues.  He just says we're gonna write them a letter.
> 
> Second, why would Gentiles have to go to synagogues to know the law?  Gill explicitly makes the point that the law had been "publicly expounded".  The Jewish faith was not unknown to the Gentiles.  I bet I could pass a test on the basics of Islam even though I've never been in a mosque and have never read the Koran.
> 
> Third, what's the point to all this?  Just an academic question?



1. Looks as if we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

2. Because there were no churches to go to, and the Apostles were Jews, converting Gentiles over to messianic Jews( not exactly but similar) for this time being.

3. Just building a case , laying out all the evidence to show a point, we've just begun, but I need participants to either show evidence to the contrary or help me build it.

Iron sharpens iron.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 21, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> 2. Because there were no churches to go to ...



The church is not a building.  




hobbs27 said:


> 3. Just building a case , laying out all the evidence to show a point, we've just begun, but I need participants to either show evidence to the contrary or help me build it.



The evidence for Sunday worship is overwhelming. 




hobbs27 said:


> 3. Just building a case , laying out all the evidence to show a point ...



Which is what?  That we should be observing the Sabbath?  I'm not that interested in participating further unless I know where we're going.


----------



## gemcgrew (Oct 21, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Therefore the law was not fulfilled at the cross.


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 21, 2014)

centerpin fan; said:
			
		

> Which is what?  That we should be observing the Sabbath?  I'm not that interested in participating further unless I know where we're going.



Ok, I'll rush it along and try to get everything in here.

The Sabbath s whether weekly or ceremonial were important laws to the Jews..breaking this law would give someone the death penalty. There is evidence that the first Christians were under the law, you said so yourself about obstaining from meats Sacrificed etc. The gentile Christians after much debate were released from the Law of circumcision, but only because they were Gentile, Jews that turned to Christ were still under the law of circumcision such as Titus in which Paul himself circumcised.

This is an important factor, and the fact that we know Jesus came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it. The seven feast sabbaths all pointed to Christ. His sinless life, his atonement, his coming in judgement, the resurrection and finally rest. I'm very pleased with everyone's comment about finding rest in Christ......The importance of this is those things must have been fulfilled by Christ, all of them or none because Christ said Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot ore one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, Till all be fulfilled.

It wasn't the cross, the atonement, but the fulfillment of all...all seven feasts were fulfilled in the coming and ressurection of the dead which Paul calls the hope of Israel. Then the law was fulfilled, then we find rest in Christ every day.

There can be no partial fulfillment,..not the smallest iota of the law was to pass until all was fulfilled. Christ own words seals the law until fulfillment of all prophesy, which includes the resurrection of the dead...an Old Testament prophecy, known as the hope of Israel.

The evidence of the law being in tact throughout the epistles is obvious. The destruction of the temple in 70ad which was the fulfillment of Matthew 24 was the heaven and earth passing  away. From 70 ad to present there is no law, it is fulfilled.

I probably missed a lot I wanted to cover but I didn't want your patience grow too thin. Thanks.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 21, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


>



 Originally Posted by hobbs27 View Post
Therefore the law was not fulfilled at the cross.

As you now know by Hobbs last post. 
Atonement on the cross
Fulfillment 70AD.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 21, 2014)

Hobbs, with all of the prophesy you see in everything, it's a wonder you aren't a Calvinist! 

Seriously, what Bible books were written before 70AD and/or how does this affect scripture as it pertains to us?
What about dispensations and how does it work into Preterism? What about Paul's letters to the Churches or was this after 70AD?

I know you've explained some of this to me before, but it takes awhile for me to absorb. 

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Ephesians 1:10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.

Perhaps related, if atonement was on the cross and fulfillment was at 70AD, what happened at Christ's resurrection?


----------



## hobbs27 (Oct 21, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, with all of the prophesy you see in everything, it's a wonder you aren't a Calvinist!
> 
> Seriously, what Bible books were written before 70AD and/or how does this affect scripture as it pertains to us?


All scripture was written before 70ad. The book of Revelation was in dispute but even most futurist agree it was pre 70ad because of the evidence within the book itself.





Artfuldodger said:


> What about dispensations and how does it work into Preterism? What about Paul's letters to the Churches or was this after 70AD?
> 
> I know you've explained some of this to me before, but it takes awhile for me to absorb.
> 
> ...



I'll be back in a little while and show more on the seven feasts and I'll go through the atonement process too, both are very good showing the shadows of things that were to come.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 21, 2014)

The seven feasts 

1.The Passover

The Passover, or Pesach in Hebrew (passing over for protection), is a direct reference to the instructions given to Moses by God in Exodus 6:6-8. The Passover is a “time of new beginnings”, and it is celebrated on the 14th day of the first month of the Jewish Calendar, Nisan.

The Symbolism in the Passover is extremely powerful. John the Baptist introduced Jesus as “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). It would be safe to assume that the Jews knew very well what John was referring to. As an example, on the 10th on Nisan, a lamb was chosen by the High Priest. The priest would lead the lamb into Jerusalem, while the crowds would cover the streets with palm branches and would sing Psalm 118, “Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord.”


2.Unleavened Bread

The Feast of Unleavened Bread, or Hag HaMatzah begins immediately after Passover, and it celebrates the hurried exodus from Egypt; so fast did Israel leave Egypt, that there was no time to let the dough rise: “They baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth from Egypt, for it was not leavened, and could not delay.”

The matzah bread, without leaven, pierced with a fork, bruised and broken before being eaten for seven days, is a direct reference to Christ, having no sin, being killed so that mankind can have life. Paul makes a direct reference to this feast when saying: “Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.” (1 Cor. 5:7-8)

3 The First Fruits

The First Fruits celebration, Yom HaBikkurim or Sfirat Haomer (translated as “a promise to come”), takes place on the day following the Sabbath after Passover

On this day, the High Priest would wave a sheaf, tied with red ribbon to God. This is evidently a symbol of Christ being resurrected, and being the first fruit of the resurrection of the dead: “But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.” (1 Cor. 15:20). 


4Feast of Weeks

The Feast of Weeks, also known as Pentecost, or Shavuot is a two-day Jewish holiday, marking the end of the barley harvest and the beginning of wheat harvest. Taking place fifty days (seven weeks per Lev. 23:15) after cutting the first sheaf of barley, the Pentecost presents some fascinating typology to the New Testament reader. We know that on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came over many believers, but the parallels go beyond this event:





First Pentecost  ....... .. .    Pentecost After Christ

Ten Commandments Given.........    Holy Spirit Given

Fifty Days from leaving Egypt....... . Fifty days from resurrection of Christ

Law written on tablets ............       Law written on people's hearts

Three thousand die  ............      Three thousand are saved

The letter of the Law  .......... .          The Spirit of the Law



5 The Feast of Trumpets

The Feast of Trumpets, also called Rosh Hashanah (the beginning of the year) in Hebrew was to be celebrated at the beginning of the Jewish civil year. Initially, this holiday had no name, but eventually it has come to be known as Yom Teruah, or “the day of the sounding of the shofar.” Because of this, it has been called The Feast of Trumpets, a day which was meant to call attention to the coming Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur

Without question, the Feast of Trumpets has a significant eschatological significance, but in A.D. 70, the feast of Trumpets took place on Sept 24th, exactly 50 days after the Romans burned down the Jewish Temple. 

6 The Day of Atonement

Yom Kippur, The Day of Atonement is also referred to as “the Day of Redemption.” This day pictures the transference of sin. It is a time of fasting, cleansing, and reflection, which is to be observed once a year. The Day of Atonement was Israel’s reminder that the daily, weekly, and monthly sacrifices made at the altar of burnt offering were not sufficient to atone for sin.



Yom Kippur takes place on the 10th day of the month of Tishri, when participants would wear white clothing to symbolize that sins will be made white as snow (Isaiah 1:18). Some Jews traditionally wear a kitel, the white robe in which dead people are buried; this is interesting in that at least in Preterist circles, removal of sin is often associated with the resurrection from the dead, and the “coming to life” of the believer. Wearing a dead man’s clothing while celebrating the Day of Atonement has a profound effect on the theory that the resurrection from the dead is spiritual matter, and confirms that dead physical bodies have no relation with “the resurrection from the dead.”

John also present a picture of the Day of Atonement in Revelation 7: “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice saying “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne and the Lamb” and He said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”


7 Feast of Tabernacles

The Feast of Tabernacles or Sukkoth (meaning “booths”) refers to the temporary dwellings that Jews are commanded to live in during this holiday, just as the Jews did in the wilderness. The Feast of Tabernacles lasts for seven days and ends on the twenty-first day (3x7) of the Hebrew month of Tishri, which is Israel’s seventh month. The feast is relevant because God chose to have a tabernacle among Israel, to offer them His presence, comfort and protection.

In Revelation we read: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” (Rev. 11:15)

John also describes the New Jerusalem, the tabernacle of God coming down to earth: “...and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God” (Rev. 21:10)

The idea is that we can clearly connect the arrival of the “kingdom of God” or “tabernacle of God” mentioned in Revelation to this specific feast.


Now for the atonement and why it wasnt complete with just a sacrifice.

This by Arthur Malanson:

When did our High Priest come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people? [TD: unquestionably Pentecost] This question seems to be ignored by many Christians. It is of vital importance, however, because unless our High Priest appears who can be saved? 

The example is set in the Old Testament. Every year on the Day of Atonement the high priest would enter in to the Presence behind the veil in the Holiest of all. “Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.” (Leviticus 23:27,28) 

The High Priest must come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people so they know the blood of the sacrifice atoned for their sins. If the High Priest does not appear the people have no assurance of salvation. No appearance, no forgiveness. 

Jesus Christ is our High Priest. “This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.” (Hebrews 6:19, 20) It is obvious by these verses that He did enter the Presence behind the veil. And the Christians of that generation waited! 

Salvation didn’t come at the cross. It didn’t come at Pentecost. It didn’t come at the ascension. According to the pattern of the Old Testament, forgiveness of sins came when the high priest came out from the Presence behind the veil. 

Jesus, representing us, was in the Presence of God at the time of the writing of Hebrews. All of that generation knew it would take the return of Jesus to complete the work of atonement. Thus they spoke of this redemptive work as a hope. 

“. . . but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.” (Hebrews 3:6) Hope is something we wait for that we do not yet have. Salvation was still a hope in that day. 

Their Christian hope rested on the oath and promise of God. They also knew their High Priest would return before that generation passed away. Jesus emphasized this in His teaching. So they waited in eager anticipation for the finished work of salvation, or atonement. Peter wrote of these things: “. . . who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (1 Peter 1:5) 

If Christ didn’t return, as some Christians would have us believe, then no one can truly say he has salvation. If Christ hasn’t come out from the Presence behind the veil, then the work of atonement is an unfinished work. 

The good news is Jesus did return! (The good news, or Gospel, is not preached correctly unless the Second Coming of Christ is included.) Back now to our original question. When did our High Priest come out of the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people? He returned in A.D. 70 at the fall of Jerusalem, in that generation—just as He promised He would.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 21, 2014)

What is different now than before 70AD?
Are we not under a dispensation or age of grace?


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## hobbs27 (Oct 21, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> What is different now than before 70AD?
> Are we not under a dispensation or age of grace?



We are under the age or covenant of grace. The never ending kingdom. We have life eternal. Salvation has come in its fullness.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 21, 2014)




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## Artfuldodger (Oct 21, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> We are under the age or covenant of grace. The never ending kingdom. We have life eternal. Salvation has come in its fullness.



What about the sins that will keep one our of the Kingdom? Presented by Paul.
Written before this covenant of grace.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 22, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> What about the sins that will keep one our of the Kingdom? Presented by Paul.
> Written before this covenant of grace.




Sin is no more inside the gates/kingdom, but outside it thrives.

Revelation 22: 4 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 22, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Sin is no more inside the gates/kingdom, but outside it thrives.
> 
> Revelation 22: 4 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
> 
> ...



So when I sin, do I temporarily leave the Kingdom?
What separates me if I'm now in the Kingdom from the "Outside?"
I'm assuming this Kingdom is spiritual and the "Outside" is physical.

I'm wondering how the drunkard who never fully repents fits into this Kingdom and the other sinners on Paul's list. Can a Christian have one foot in the gates and one outside?


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## hobbs27 (Oct 22, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> So when I sin, do I temporarily leave the Kingdom?
> What separates me if I'm now in the Kingdom from the "Outside?"
> I'm assuming this Kingdom is spiritual and the "Outside" is physical.
> 
> I'm wondering how the drunkard who never fully repents fits into this Kingdom and the other sinners on Paul's list. Can a Christian have one foot in the gates and one outside?



The drunkard has lusts of the world, therefore never hears the invitation to come..for he has no spiritual ears to hear, his ears are carnal.

Once sober he can hear but makes the choice to take of the water of life or not, it's free!

Sin is actions against the law given to man by God..disobedience to God if you will. If your sin has been forgiven past , present, and future, then how can you sin?

 I'm not saying we don't do things we shouldn't, but are we immediately dealt with, that this disobedience doesn't seperate us from God? I can't say I understand fully how it works, but I do know the Law is fulfilled, and there is no sin in the Kingdom.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 22, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The drunkard has lusts of the world, therefore never hears the invitation to come..for he has no spiritual ears to hear, his ears are carnal.
> 
> Once sober he can hear but makes the choice to take of the water of life or not, it's free!
> 
> ...



It sounds like you are saying a person must quit sinning before salvation is granted. 
I believe one should try to quit sinning after salvation is granted. Something that happens after salvation. It can't happen to a depraved lost sinner.
It is in no way related to salvation by the grace of God. I don't believe the drunkard's ability to quit drinking is part of his salvation.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 22, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> It sounds like you are saying a person must quit sinning before salvation is granted.
> I believe one should try to quit sinning after salvation is granted. Something that happens after salvation. It can't happen to a depraved lost sinner.
> It is in know way related to salvation by the grace of God. I don't believe the drunkard's ability to quit drinking is part of his salvation.



I think drunkard is just an example used as to someone that has their attention set to only carnal things, therefore has no ears to hear.

It could very well be someone that is consumed with greed, or lust..They are fully attentive to the temporary and not the permanent.....carnal vs spiritual.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 26, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


>



Some people are more comfortable in positions I refuse to put myself in.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 27, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Some people are more comfortable in positions I refuse to put myself in.



“It is finished”


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## hobbs27 (Oct 27, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> “It is finished”



Yes, "it" was. Mine and every single person that has received his grace by the blood shed that day can look upon that event as the central most important part of their salvation.

I am not diminishing the cross, but the "it" was not all things. Jesus had just begun building His church, the Kingdom had not come down yet, the Holy Spirit had not come yet. There were many things yet to do, as in the temple destruction Jesus Himself prophecied in Matthew 24.

Matthew 5:17-18 was not tied to the cross, but to " till heaven and earth pass" This was to be the end of the Law.

Matthew 24: 32-39 explains things to come soon after the cross, how do we know it was to come soon? Matthew 24:34, that generation would not pass till ALL the signs of the end were to be fulfilled.

V35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

There is no doubt that heaven and earth have passed away, Matthew 5:17 seals the law until that day, also Matthew 24 puts the event of it after the cross, but within that generation, it all points to 70ad as the time and event of heaven and earth passing away, heaven and earth being the Old Covenant.


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## Israel (Oct 27, 2014)

It almost seems one exalts a date, another the Christ.
Am I wrong?


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## hobbs27 (Oct 27, 2014)

Israel said:


> It almost seems one exalts a date, another the Christ.
> Am I wrong?



It could seem that way I suppose. Knowing that God cannot lie, and respecting that as the truth, and acknowledging what He has given us feeds our souls. I plan to break the bread daily. Give us this day our daily bread. It all points to Christ to me, be it His virgin birth, His walk on the water, His bringing life to the dead, His death on the cross, His resurrection after he said, It is finished, His ascension, His return...The greater Jesus in the whole.


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## Israel (Oct 27, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> It could seem that way I suppose. Knowing that God cannot lie, and respecting that as the truth, and acknowledging what He has given us feeds our souls. I plan to break the bread daily. Give us this day our daily bread. It all points to Christ to me, be it His virgin birth, His walk on the water, His bringing life to the dead, His death on the cross, His resurrection after he said, It is finished, His ascension, His return...The greater Jesus in the whole.


Thank you for the response to what could have seemed an unkind description in my post.
I am familiar with finding "a thing" of Christ that has so stood out to me as key, in my then present pursuit, as to be so single in significance to me, I probably appeared to many like a dog with a bone, and I am not at all trying to describe you...but, I also don't doubt...it can happen.
We sometimes, if we be a "we"...(and not just me in my vanity) that such, though never meant to be anything but what we perceive as a help, and that perhaps, even to others, that this thing, in its signal importance to us, becomes something of a stumbling block, sometimes even of contention.
Of course, that in no way casts any light upon it as "unnecessary", or the experience, less than absolutely needful, and in the end, beneficial.
I am guessing Paul kinda came to a place like that when he said, "and if any be otherwise minded, God will make this plain to him, also"
That coming to a place where we know we cannot make anyone see, but trust only, that if, and as God has made certain things plain to us, and we could not "make ourselves" apprehend them...such giving and apprehensions must be left with the one who has the only power to make any of us "see".


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## hobbs27 (Oct 27, 2014)

Israel said:


> Thank you for the response to what could have seemed an unkind description in my post.
> I am familiar with finding "a thing" of Christ that has so stood out to me as key, in my then present pursuit, as to be so single in significance to me, I probably appeared to many like a dog with a bone, and I am not at all trying to describe you...but, I also don't doubt...it can happen.
> We sometimes, if we be a "we"...(and not just me in my vanity) that such, though never meant to be anything but what we perceive as a help, and that perhaps, even to others, that this thing, in its signal importance to us, becomes something of a stumbling block, sometimes even of contention.
> Of course, that in no way casts any light upon it as "unnecessary", or the experience, less than absolutely needful, and in the end, beneficial.
> ...




I understand on some things. Paul said concerning of this thing.
1 Thessalonians 4:13.  

When scripture becomes a stumbling block to Christianity, that in itself is evidence of a great need for reformation. I'm not having new revelations of these things, just allowing God's recorded word to speak.


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