# New revival warnings



## toddboucher (Jun 25, 2008)

Today Im hearing about a few revivals are around, one in Florida and another on NC. I would be prayerful and watchful about these. NC is in run under Rick Joyner a man know for error and crazieness. Florida is happining under Todd Bentley how I have never heard about, this is what the Christian Research Institute found. 

http://www.equip.org/site/apps/s/go...equip&oe=UTF-8&proxystylesheet=equip_frontend 

Hank Speaks Out On Todd Bentley's Violent Outbursts 


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As I was walking into the studio the other day I received an audio clip of Todd Bentley, who is supposedly running a revival in Lakeland, Florida. We've played some clips of Todd Bentley on the radio already where he's talking about Jesus appearing to him looking like Bambi with big brown eyes. We've played clips of him instituting a new aspect of revival which has to do with vibrations in the Spirit. But now I get a clip in which Todd Bentley - and I thought this was a joke, quite frankly - in which he is saying that God wants him - in fact, instructed him - to grab a lady's crippled legs and to start banging them up and down on the platform like a baseball bat; in which God told him, supposedly, to kick a woman in the face. When I was given this clip I had to question my research staff as to whether this was real, because I simply couldn't believe it! This is so out there, folks! I wrote a book called Counterfeit Revival and never in my wildest dreams ever thought it would get to this. Here is what he said:

The woman was standing in the back of the room when the faith of God hit the meeting and her tumor exploded out of her right leg, slid down her leg onto the floor. I said "God, I prayed for like a 100 crippled people. Not one?" He said "That's because I want you to grab that lady's crippled legs and bang them up and down on the platform like a baseball bat." I walked up and I grabbed her legs and I started going BAM. I started banging them up and down on the platform. She got healed. And I'm thinking God, "Why is not the power of God moving?" He said "Because you haven't kicked that woman in the face." And there was this older lady worshipping right in front of the platform. And the Holy Spirit spoke to me. The gift of faith came on me. He said "Kick her in the face - with your biker boot!" I inched closer and I went like this. BAM. And just as my boot made contact with her nose she fell under the power of God. And I saw him and the gift of faith came on me and I said "What do I do, God" and God told me to just run him down. So I jumped up in the air and I went BAM and I hit him to the ground, jumped on to him and got into a full mount. Ground and pound. I jumped on him and I was in a full mount and something came over me and instead of punching him I grabbed him by the neck and started choking him and I said "Come out of him, devil! Come out of him, devil!" And I was at another meeting one time and I called out this Chinese gentleman and all of a sudden I went running down the aisle and I hit this guy so hard it drove him back several feet. He hit the ground and his tooth popped right out of his mouth. The pastor was lying on the floor and I was standing up on the platform and I said "God, I want revival" and He said these words to me: "Leg drop the pastor!" I said "What?" He said "Leg drop the pastor!"

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. This is a metamorphosis of counterfeit revival such as I have never anticipated in my life. I have seen these kinds of things and certainly read about them happening in the ashrams of cults, but now this is happening in front of the altars of churches and people are completely unaware of crowd dynamics. People in crowds are more easily influenced than people taken by themselves. The effect of suggestion on crowds seems virtually without limit. It can make black appear white, obscure reality, enshrines absurdity, and then it gets to the point where you have crowds here laughing, full of anticipation as he talks about the Holy Spirit instructing him to kick a lady in the face, to choke someone, to sit on someone and violate them to the extent that, as he said, a tooth popped out of the person's mouth. And to leg drop a pastor. 

Once epidemic suggestion contaminates a movement human beings can behave like beasts or idiots and be proud of it, and no one is immune to the force of mass suggestion. Once this kind of hysteria is in full force it strikes intellectuals as well as morons, rich and poor alike. As has well been said and documented in Counterfeit Revival, Robert Marks said "Once an epidemic of hysteria is in full force it is contagious and the wellsprings are subconscious and biological, not rational." 

This is just another example of demonic deception and it's happening in churches because people set aside their ability to think rationally and critically. They even set aside their ability to exercise their wills because they become hypersuggestible, which means that they are likely to accept any spiritual truth that enters their craniums, and they are primed by people like Todd Bentley in what is being touted as revival in major Christian magazines and by major Christian leaders. They are primed for mystical experiences and they are attaching spiritual significance to virtually anything that enters their minds.

This is an abomination. This is why Jeremiah once warned ancient Israel "Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you. They fill you with false hopes, they speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord. Do not listen to those prophets." Some of you ought to get your Bibles out and read Jeremiah 23. I took the time to memorize it, but it is worth reading because it is a warning against false prophets who do not benefit the body of Christ in the least.

We've come to a place in the Christian church where we lack discernment to the extent that thousands and thousands of people - now, millions - are being swept up in these kinds of revivals, all under the guise of spirituality. People are not only being damaged in the process, but they are dragging Christ's name through the mud. Make no mistake about that because the world looks on and says "these people are gullible fools." You and I need to understand how this process works. In fact I just finished writing a little booklet on that. We're going to offer it to people in the coming months so that people understand how we are now aping the practices of pagan spirituality, all under the guise of God and the Holy Spirit.

Don't think that this guy is simply rambling. He is standing with Bible in hand in front of an altar in front of a church, in a convention center, in an auditorium. Somewhere he is saying that the Holy Spirit told him, that God instructed him. When you say God did something He didn't do or the Holy Spirit told you something He didn't tell you, that's blasphemous.


anyones thought who's been there?


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## Dogmusher (Jun 25, 2008)

TB:

That's one of the most incredible articles I've seen in a long time.  I thought the Supreme Court's decision on Child Rape was the goofiest thing I'd see today, but this 'Revival' may just top it.  

Lakeland is a hotbed for these movements.  I paid a visit to one of them a few years back and the "evangelist" was encouraging the crowd to "get under the spout where the Holy Ghost comes out."  There were people laying 3 deep in the front of the auditorium and in the aisles.  It was the most flagrant example of mass hysteria I've ever seen.  Many bad things came out of that 'Revival' as will come out of the present one.  If gas wasn't so expensive I'd drive down just to see it for myself.  But then I'd end up with nightmares.

Sam


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## Spotlite (Jun 25, 2008)

never seen or heard him, not sure I would want to either.


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## Dunamis (Jun 25, 2008)

I want to take some time and seek God concerning my response, but I do want to quickly throw something out there.

_Matt 7:1 -2 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

Psalm 105:15, "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm"

1 Cor 1:25  "Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty"_


I am not advocating this issue, but nor am I going to judge or attack it either. God's ways are mysterious. His thinking and understanding is 1 billion times higher than ours. 

It's perfectly ok to verbalize your disagreement with this issue, but be careful not to attack or judge. If it turns out to be of God and we judge and attack it, we are cursing ourselves.


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## Sterlo58 (Jun 25, 2008)

Dunamis said:


> I want to take some time and seek God concerning my response, but I do want to quickly throw something out there.
> 
> _Matt 7:1 -2 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
> 
> ...



Huh ?


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## Dogmusher (Jun 25, 2008)

Dunamis, I appreciate your heart.  But I guarantee you God did not tell him to kick a woman in the face.  C'mon.


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## Sterlo58 (Jun 25, 2008)

Dunamis said:


> I want to take some time and seek God concerning my response, but I do want to quickly throw something out there.
> 
> _Matt 7:1 -2 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
> 
> ...



You are no doubt a faithful believer in the word of God but using that analogy you could excuse any evil behavior by saying God told them to do it.


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## toddboucher (Jun 25, 2008)

No one was Judging I was giving this as a warning, Was paul wrong to write this in 2 tim 4:10 "For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica.


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## Spotlite (Jun 25, 2008)

Dunamis said:


> If it turns out to be of God and we judge and attack it, we are cursing ourselves.



This is not going to turn out to have God in it, at least not the God I know, the fruits are just not there. Its like looking for Apples on a Plum tree.


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## Dunamis (Jun 25, 2008)

_-"Huh ?"_

Care to elaborate?

_-"Dunamis, I appreciate your heart. But I guarantee you God did not tell him to kick a woman in the face. C'mon. "_

Thank you for your consideration. When I first accepted Christ, I was attending a Baptist Church. For the last 16 years I've been attending pentecostal churches. -  - I've surrounded myself with many men of God that have been in the pentecostal church all of thier life. Many of them have used the phrase "get under the spout where the Holy Ghost comes out."  (I actually laughed when I saw that quote). - 

I've heard many stories from them and my father-in-law. They tell me of services "back in the day" when people would grab hot coals out of the wood-burning stove and hold them in their bare hands or in their aprons and just dance before Jesus. Neither their hands nor their apron were singed. Why did they do this? The only Idea I can come up with is that they felt that God had instructed them to do so. Could it be said that they heard correctly from God seeing as they were not burned? So what did come out of this situation? Simply stated, Faith. Those people learned that when God told them to do something, no matter how ludicrous it sounded, He would come down from His throne in Glory and meet them there. He would support them by His power! He would by no means allow anything to harm them! 

Look in the Bible. There are scenario's similar in principle to what I mentioned above. Moses was told to stretch his hand over the sea. No doubt this man of God must have had inner-turmoil because, quite honestly, God was telling Moses to do something simple that didn't seem to have any "spiritual relevance". God didn't tell Moses exactly what was going to happen once he did what was asked of him. What do think would have happened if Moses had addressed the millions of Israelites and told them, "Hey guys! The Lord knows that Egypt is on our tail, but He told me to raise my hand over this water." He would have gotten the ole "stink eye", and quick. However, Moses complied and the Red Sea was parted for the Israelites to cross over into safety. If Moses had not raised his hand over the sea, would the outcome have been different? Sure God would have made provision for His people, but would the Red Sea have been split?

Again, I am not saying that I support the wild antics described in that article, especially since I’ve had Jesus tell me to do things that I thought were off the wall and out f character for me. However, when I did what I was told, Jesus was there. All I’m saying is that there is not a whole lot  that makes sense in the natural, because He and His works are Supernatural. In all things there must be balance.

We have to learn to discern what is truth and what is not, but at the same time be mindful and careful to not cast judgment on anything or anyone. We need to understand that simply because something doesn’t look like we think it ought to or we don’t understand or agree with  it doesn’t discount it from being from God. I learned this lesson the hard way. I didn’t agree with TBN having preachers on TV trying to raise money by telling people that all they had to do was send in money and God would release a blessing to them. They would say that there were 100 people that needed to give $1,000. I didn’t agree with that and I thought those people were devilish liars twisting the Word. I made the mistake of saying that in front of my father-in-law. Needless to say I got checked. He told me that whether I feel they are right or not doesn’t make them right or wrong. Who am I anyway to make that call? How do I know that God didn’t tell them to say that? He said that speaking against the people that the Lord anointed is bringing curse upon myself because if I curse them I am curse the one that sent them, God. On the other hand, if they are NOT of God it’s not my job to condemn them, it’s God’s. Jesus will deal with those “_false prophets_.”

_2 Kings 2:23-24 “And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.”_​



_-"You are no doubt a faithful believer in the word of God but using that analogy you could excuse any evil behavior by saying God told them to do it. "
-"I agree. That happens occasionally"_

Thank you for your comments! I simply love Jesus, that’s all! You’re exactly right! My comments could be used to excuse sin, but they weren’t intended to give someone a license to do so. Discernment is a must!




_-"No one was Judging I was giving this as a warning, Was paul wrong to write this in 2 tim 4:10 "For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica."_


 - I should have worded my comments a little better. My comments were like yours (believe it or not) and Paul’s’ in the text you quoted. I wanted to make everyone aware that speaking against something that COULD be of God is dangerous ground to tread in God’s eyes. The over all attitude of the article you copied and pasted originally is worded very strongly.  I feel the author was almost judgmental. I apologize for my comments misleading anyone to think I myself was judging. - 



_-"This is not going to turn out to have God in it, at least not the God I know, the fruits are just not there. Its like looking for Apples on a Plum tree__"_ 

This is another reason why we must cultivate our relationship with God. The more time we spend with Him, the better and easier recognizing Him becomes. What fruits are you looking for?

_John 10:27 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me”_​Let me reiterate something so that I am not coming across as “holier than thou” or as a heretic. I’m not going to say that I support what’s going on down in Lakeland, because I’m not there and I don’t operate in the prophetic either. AT the same time I’m not going to say it’s not of God. 



 - If I offended anybody by my comments I apologize!!! -


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## Spotlite (Jun 25, 2008)

Dunamis said:


> What fruits are you looking for?



love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, meekness, temperance, none of those were shown toward the victims, of course the victims did have longsuffereing, faith would be questionable with a good lawyer


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## Dunamis (Jun 25, 2008)

who are the victims?


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## gordon 2 (Jun 26, 2008)

Quote( Once epidemic suggestion contaminates a movement human beings can behave like beasts or idiots and be proud of it, and no one is immune to the force of mass suggestion. Once this kind of hysteria is in full force it strikes intellectuals as well as morons, rich and poor alike. As has well been said and documented in Counterfeit Revival, Robert Marks said "Once an epidemic of hysteria is in full force it is contagious and the wellsprings are subconscious and biological, not rational." (Quote.

The victims are the soldiers and the crowds along with their pastors and priests that daily crucify the Lord.


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## toddboucher (Jun 26, 2008)

today these events are about feeling and emotions not belief. What they produce is outword  works of the flesh not the inner work of the Spirit, which is the fruit of the Spirit. Im not planning on going but I can bet the message is nothing more then emotionism with no substance resulting in no change. If youve read about a real revival like in wales jails shutdown, everyone was in church lives were changed, by a belief in Jesus.  These people are just taking from the people who enter this building IMO. Now as far as Hank Hanegraaff he is as solid as can be and has offered to debeat any of the word of faith types and they said no, as far as I know.


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## Spotlite (Jun 26, 2008)

Dunamis said:


> who are the victims?



the lady that gets kicked in the face, the pastor that gets leg dropped, or the one that gets choked...................


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## kw5891 (Jun 26, 2008)

Dogmusher said:


> TB:
> 
> That's one of the most incredible articles I've seen in a long time.  I thought the Supreme Court's decision on Child Rape was the goofiest thing I'd see today, but this 'Revival' may just top it.
> 
> ...


did you read how many souls were saved at the lakeland revival of 1992 before you judge i would keep judgement to my self plus the bible talk about joy not lemon juice


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Jun 26, 2008)

Don't think I'd agree with the Ole boy much:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_K8XjObzfXM&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_K8XjObzfXM&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## toddboucher (Jun 26, 2008)

kw5891 said:


> did you read how many souls were saved at the lakeland revival of 1992 before you judge i would keep judgement to my self plus the bible talk about joy not lemon juice



do you feel they are true believers I remember years back when these folks started laughing, they also said some where getting saved. IMO they are only acting saved till hard times come


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## Keith48 (Jun 26, 2008)

When i started reading the first post, I knew immediately that this had to be Hank Hanegraaff's writing. Why not attribute his name to the quotes? Well, the answer is obvious. All Hanegraaff ever does is denigrate and look for flaws in every else's ministries (I rad something about that and a plank in the eye or something somewhere once before). All he does is accuse and criticize other ministries. Funny. In my Bible, the one who accuses is the enemy and the one who intercedes is Jesus.

For all the folks that sit in judgment of these ministries and revivals, how many people have you personally led to Jesus? How many lives have you changed through your ministry? 

It is better to keep your mouth shut about things that you don't understand than to spout off in ignorance and call judgment on yourself. 

Finally, all of you be of one mind, having compassion for one another; love as brothers, be tenderhearted, be courteous; not returning evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary blessing, knowing that you were called to this, that you may inherit a blessing. For 
      “ He who would love life
      And see good days,
       Let him refrain his tongue from evil,
      And his lips from speaking deceit.
       Let him turn away from evil and do good;
       Let him seek peace and pursue it.
       For the eyes of the LORD are on the righteous,
       And His ears are open to their prayers;
      But the face of the LORD is against those who do evil.” 1 Peter 3:8-12


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## Keith48 (Jun 26, 2008)

toddboucher said:


> do you feel they are true believers I remember years back when these folks started laughing, they also said some where getting saved. IMO they are only acting saved till hard times come


 
I'll say this as humbly and gently as I can - your opinion doesn't matter a hill of beans if it does not line up with the Word of God. I'll choose the Word over your - or anyone's, for that matter - opinion all day, every day. How arrogant to think that you know the heart of others and what is going on in them...


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## gordon 2 (Jun 26, 2008)

Keith48 said:


> When i started reading the first post, I knew immediately that this had to be Hank Hanegraaff's writing. Why not attribute his name to the quotes? Well, the answer is obvious. All Hanegraaff ever does is denigrate and look for flaws in every else's ministries (I rad something about that and a plank in the eye or something somewhere once before). All he does is accuse and criticize other ministries. Funny. In my Bible, the one who accuses is the enemy and the one who intercedes is Jesus.
> 
> For all the folks that sit in judgment of these ministries and revivals, how many people have you personally led to Jesus? How many lives have you changed through your ministry?
> 
> ...



Really! Your avatar needs drinking straws instead of cigarettes perhaps? I don't know, I'm just a taxidermist. 

However, this joker minister reminds me of traveling minitries who impress their listeners with their antics when they were in biker gangs, Before they were saved. Their horror presentations are really 90% entertianment Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- scare tactic and 10% soft born -hum-again.

Now mind you, I am not saying that the Lord is not going to connect with those who got their education via the WWF.
 For example, I know of a famous" christian" blue grass star that makes his point to explain that his roots are from a foot washing moma that raised them them decent and christian__ by busting the house doors with her childrens heads! And once more he is right proud of his moma and her rightious doings, regard proper upbringing with the implication that he is blessed right up there with the saints perhaps.

Only the story is falty. The saints got the constipation beat out them by tyrants not parents. Sorry but this guy's congregation needs a referal to social services and foster care. In my view, of course.


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## Spotlite (Jun 26, 2008)

No. GA. Mt. Man said:


> Don't think I'd agree with the Ole boy much:
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_K8XjObzfXM&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_K8XjObzfXM&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>



make that 2 of us. got to be mighty deceived to think God is in that junk.


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## Spotlite (Jun 26, 2008)

Keith48 said:


> For all the folks that sit in judgment of these ministries and revivals, how many people have you personally led to Jesus? How many lives have you changed through your ministry?
> 
> It is better to keep your mouth shut about things that you don't understand than to spout off in ignorance and call judgment on yourself.



"KNOW them that labor among you"

A spade is a spade ................


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## PWalls (Jun 26, 2008)

One thing about these kinds of revivals. If even one person gets genuinely saved, then Hallelujah. Holy Spirit can and does work in mysterious ways.

One other thing about these kinds of revivals. If even one person make a head committment only based on emotion only without it reaching the heart and is deceived about their salvation, then God Forbid. There will be some accountability one day for that.


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## Spotlite (Jun 26, 2008)

Keith48 said:


> For all the folks that sit in judgment of these ministries and revivals, how many people have you personally led to Jesus? How many lives have you changed through your ministry?



If you refer to 1st Cor 3 somewhere along vs 4 or 5 through 7 or 8 somewhere along those lines, 


the answer is we dont know how many. I might have talked to one man and planted the seed, another came along and watered it later


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## Music Man (Jun 26, 2008)

I know I'm only seeing a snapshot of this man's "ministry", but, whoever you are, just show me THE GOSPEL.  Period.


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## Dunamis (Jun 26, 2008)

I'm not going to try an persuade any of you as to whether this man is of God or not. You are grown men and you can make decisions for yourselves. Whether this man is operating in God's will or outside of God's will is not our decision to make.  If he is not of God, he will have to answer for it.

_Matt7:22-23 - "(22)Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23)And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."_

If you castjudgement on that which is of God you too will be held accountable.

_Romans 14:10-12 - "(10)But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. (11)For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. (12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." _


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## toddboucher (Jun 26, 2008)

1 question: what damage do you think this does to the lost world, most of the lost world already thinks that the church is full of simple people. Its the same thing with so called Christian TV set up to raise money. 

As for Hank tell me where and when he has been wrong. 

 Its funny on one point you say its wrong for hank to disagree and put warning out against others but then you do the same against him. Hank is standing for keeping the word pure and has help me alot.


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## Dunamis (Jun 26, 2008)

"1 question: what damage do you think this does to the lost world, most of the lost world already thinks that the church is full of simple people..." 

People are going to be people whether they are saved or lost. Opinions are like backsides, everybody has one and a majority of them smell less than desirable.-I don't think that any more "damage" has been done by this than that which has already existed. Pentecostals have had these types of arguments cast at them from the beginning of their existence. This is not the first time circumstances like these have been called into question by Christians or otherwise. I can guarantee you that this won't be the last time this issue comes up before Jesus comes back! The only additional damage that I can see coming from this situation is "Christians" or "followers of Jesus" calling what very well COULD BE OF GOD as anything but.

“Its the same thing with so called Christian TV set up to raise money.”

I know. If you will recall that this is the  analogy I used to demonstrate  where my personal understanding came from concerning issues such as this. I had an issue with the idea of TV preachers “bartering” a touch of God for money. I saw is as Simon the sorcerer trying to buy the spiritual gifts. What if God really did tell them to say those things? Who am I to cast judgment on those tele-evangelist’s? The answer is I’m nobody! I could have brought a curse on myself by doing so. There’s no difference between this issue and that issue

"As for Hank tell me where and when he has been wrong."

"This is a metamorphosis of _counterfeit revival _such as I have never anticipated in my life."

-"This is an _abomination_. "

-"Don't think that this guy is simply rambling. He is standing with Bible in hand in front of an altar in front of a church, in a convention center, in an auditorium. Somewhere he is saying that the Holy Spirit told him, that God instructed him. _When you say God did something He didn't do or the Holy Spirit told you something He didn't tell you, that's blasphemous_."

-"This is just another _example of demonic deception _and it's happening in churches because people set aside their ability to think rationally and critically​
Staying with the point-of-view that we do not know that the lakeland "revival" is of God or not, these are strong words to use? WHAT IF, that "revival" was 100% of God? What would you think of these comments then?



-“Its funny on one point you say its wrong for hank to disagree and put warning out against others...”

Actually it’s not funny at all. There’s really no need to split hairs. I never once said that it was wrong for hank to disagree. Note what I said, “_It's perfectly ok to verbalize your disagreement with this issue, but be careful not to attack or judge. If it turns out to be of God and we judge and attack it, we are cursing ourselves_.” Yes I did put a warning out to people because unlike a lot of other people I this world, I want people to be fully aware of the spiritual consequences of their actions. I mean come on, if we new for a fact that the “revival” going on down in Lakeland was of God would we be speaking the same way? 


-”but then you do the same against him”

Note what I said: “The over all attitude of the article you copied and pasted originally is worded very strongly. I feel the author was almost judgmental.” If this is considered judging him, then maybe I did judge him and I will apologize. I seem to want to think otherwise.

-”Hank is standing for keeping the word pure and has help me a lot.”

Todd, if Hank blesses you and helps you out, AWESOME! Go with God my friend. Stay where you are being fed and cling tight to what you know is true! Even if it hair-lips every devil in hail! The most important thing, outside of salvation, is being fed the word! I mean that with all my heart! I am not saying that in a condescending tone!!! Be Fed!!!


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## kw5891 (Jun 27, 2008)

toddboucher said:


> No one was Judging I was giving this as a warning, Was paul wrong to write this in 2 tim 4:10 "For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica.


there were 12 apostles each one seen what they seen from there view so you just cant pick one and throw the other ones away. point jesus change 3 apostles name. john the baptist sent word to jesus asking are you the one ? why did he do this because because jesus was not doing the same thing the baptist was doing


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## Dogmusher (Jun 27, 2008)

K48:  I wasn't going to post anymore on this thread, but you threw down a gauntlet.  First, I was at the 92 Lakeland Revival.  It was a Fraud.  The host Church split at least twice within the next few years.  There was financial and moral misconduct within the leadership.  And for what it's worth, I have preached the Gospel in two dozen countries and over half the United States.  I have seen thousands come to Christ.  I know the Word of God like the back of my hand.  I have the Spirit of Christ and I know a genuine revival from a humbug a mile away.  The cause of Christ and the salvation of the lost is way too important for me to sit idly by while Charlatans and frauds mock the truth.  And Hank H is a genuine man of God, a brilliant mind and a blessing to the Church.  

I need to go have a coke and a smile.  I'm gettin' hot under the collar.  I've had too many run ins with phony 'evangelists' in my day.  But, like some others have said.  The Lord moves in mysterious ways and people do get saved at these events.  In Phillipians Paul praises God that Christ is preached regardless of the motives of the preacher.


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## Worley (Jun 27, 2008)

*Revival*

Sorry I almost always look, listen and keep comments to myself, BUT this is difficult here.  Almost feel "baited" by video and comments, but we really are not seriuosly defending this guy and some "new" revelation he has received that are in no way "biblical" in nature...


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## Dunamis (Jun 27, 2008)

I can only speak for myself, but to answer your question: absolutely not. My portion of posts has nothing to do specifically with this guy, but it has everything to do with being particularly cautious about speaking against something that could turn out to be God inspired.  That's all...


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## Worley (Jun 27, 2008)

*Inspiration*

I appreciate your comments and it makes me feel better.  But I think I can help you discern whether if it's from GOD, 2 Timothy 3:16, and any extra biblical "things" IS NOT FROM GOD.  We must always use the scripture as a compass as to what is from GOD.  I believe from some of your post that we are probably "brothers in Christ" but we must also be ready to "warn and rebuke" such behavior in the Lord's church.  We cannot take the "judgment" scriptures as a license to take a "wait and see" attitude.  If I see spiritual error, it is my duty to point it out, using the scripture as my guide and not my personal opinion.  That is what the Apostle John did when he wrote (1 John ) he was very quick to point out spiritual leaders that had some new messages, and he called them "liars", today I guess that would be judgmental?  I'll follow the "elder JOHN" pattern when I see error in teaching...


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## Dunamis (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm tracking...


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## kw5891 (Jun 28, 2008)

Dogmusher said:


> K48:  I wasn't going to post anymore on this thread, but you threw down a gauntlet.  First, I was at the 92 Lakeland Revival.  It was a Fraud.  The host Church split at least twice within the next few years.  There was financial and moral misconduct within the leadership.  And for what it's worth, I have preached the Gospel in two dozen countries and over half the United States.  I have seen thousands come to Christ.  I know the Word of God like the back of my hand.  I have the Spirit of Christ and I know a genuine revival from a humbug a mile away.  The cause of Christ and the salvation of the lost is way too important for me to sit idly by while Charlatans and frauds mock the truth.  And Hank H is a genuine man of God, a brilliant mind and a blessing to the Church.
> 
> I need to go have a coke and a smile.  I'm gettin' hot under the collar.  I've had too many run ins with phony 'evangelists' in my day.  But, like some others have said.  The Lord moves in mysterious ways and people do get saved at these events.  In Phillipians Paul praises God that Christ is preached regardless of the motives of the preacher.


your wrong i was there my wife had just left boy did i need some joy . answer this what help me thur divorce going to revival or just keep getting hit over the head with God hates divorce ? after God touch me in 92 revival in lakeland i started a out reach helping hurting kids seen many kids turn around by offering them hope in jesus christ plus i have been on tv outreach for 11 years giving hope. but this all happen in lakeland God touch my heart. the pastor step down 2 years later but to say the lakeland revival was a joke your wrong. rondey howard brown is a good man . so what people laugh some cry. one night this lady there was going to kill her self when she heard there was joy flowing in lakeland she went for hope for joy for peace. i was with rodey howard brown daughter . i was sitting beside him. the look in his eyes to watch his 18 year old daughter die. it not us who saids if a person is saved or not.   ps touch not my anointed.  be careful on bad mouthing it best for all of us. is to turn the chanel if we dont like. rodney howard brown was not the pastol just visting. plus the reason the pastol step down was because his older son stole some money. i get bad mouth all the time because my tv show is not on a christian channel.


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## Dogmusher (Jun 28, 2008)

kw- I disagree with you mightily.  I saw a whole nother angle on that thing.  I saw a whole bunch of hurt come out of it.  A whole bunch.  I am glad, though, that there was also good.  Much water has flowed under the bridge since those days, and I will just let the river run.  BTW, you might be better off that your show is NOT on a Christian Channel.


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## addictedtodeer (Jun 28, 2008)

reading this has scared me.

We must imitate the Bereans, who accepted Paul after they studied the scriptures to compare his message with the scriptures.

Act 17:10  The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. 
_Act 17:11  Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. 
Act 17:12  Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men. _

We are not to take things at face value, we are not to believe every man in the pulpit.
 Christ's warning for us:
Mark 13:21  And then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 
Mark 13:22  For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 
Mark 13:23  But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand. 

Paul warns us:
_Act 20:28  Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. 
Act 20:29  I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 
Act 20:30  and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. 
Act 20:31  Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears. _

Finally the the author of Hebrews give us this:
_Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 
Heb 13:9  Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them. _

There will never be a new teaching of Christ that is different from the scriptures.  

We must guard ourselves by knowing scriptures so that we know the way God has and will reveal himself and His works. When a teacher comes proclaiming a new way, teaching , signs that are not found in scripture or that go against scripture we are to dismiss it and proclaim it as falsehood to protect the flock.

The wolves are out there, scripture is our defense against them. Know scripture and we will know how God operates and then will be able to distinguish who are the wolves.


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## Dunamis (Jun 29, 2008)

If I may simplify what "addictedtodeer" said...."Rightly divide the Word of Truth! Good post man!


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## Mako22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Here is Todd predicting the return of Christ in person.
Todd needs to be saved before it is too late.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GNGPjFYdgJw&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GNGPjFYdgJw&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## jneil (Jun 29, 2008)

Cults can have revivals too.


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## matthewsman (Jun 29, 2008)

*yep...That's a crock...*

I've never seen a Biblical reference of God instructing anyone to do physical violence to another to heal them or to enhance worship.God doesn't express Himself any differently today than he did in the past.

Show me one reference in the Bible where it was suggested that one man of God hit,beat or kicked another to lead to their salvation or as a testament of God's power in a time of peace(this is to exclude some ignorance to David and Goliath or Samson type violence).....

If these videos are an example of what is going on down there,it ain't the real deal...........


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## Dunamis (Jun 29, 2008)

_"I  just watched Todd Bentley on YouTube and I can safely say that this man is not a Christian, he has never been born again and is most likely possessed by a devil."_
I'm glad you can "safely" say these things. IF you don't mind, but who are we/you to say that any other person is or is not saved, let alone to say he's never made that decision and is possessed by a demon?

"_Yes I am judging, I did it, I made a judgement about this man and I say he is headed for the lake of fire. He looks like he fell face first into a tackle box, he is no doubt a child of the devil and is VERY dangerous."_

Nothing wrong with DISCERNING that something is not of the spirit and relaying your concerns, but to outright comndemn? I'll be honest here, I watched a couple Youtube videos on this guy. While I did see a couple things that raised my eyebrows that I will have to research out in scripture but I find the need to openly crucify and condemn this guy. 

Why is it you feel he's a "child of the devil'? Is that based of off the fact that "he fell face first into a tackle box"? If so, that's the most unbiblically based reason I've ever heard. I do find some of the things he does a little questionable, but again I will FIRST reference the bible before I "condemn" this guy.

_
"Now what scares me is that some actually want to debate about this guy being for real or not, that scares me more than Mr. Bentley himself"_

People should "discern" whether the things going on down there are of God FOR THEM SELVES! People should form thier own INFORMED and EDUCATED decisions. IF you disagree with what's going on, simply say "there are things I don't really agree with". Not "that guys of the devil, he's not saved, he's in a cult and going to hail, he looks like he fell in a tackle box!".

To save you guys from hearig the same thing over and over again, I will refrain from posting on this again. Have a blessed day..

Phil


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## Dunamis (Jun 29, 2008)

_-"No I think I'll just state the obvious, he has multiple piercing consistent with heathen cultures that practice witch craft so I say he's full of the devil."_

Obvious to whom? 

Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

If someone is going to sit in judgment of someone else, they must first have a full understanding of that of which they are judging! Salvation has absolutely NOTHING to do with piercings in the face, but everything to do with the condition of the heart! This statement is yet another prime example of the erroneous teaching that drives people away from church! To me this statement doesn’t say “come in as you are and we’ll love you anyway”. It judges people and there is no love in that! We are to accept and love people as they are. I guess we should be happy our words aren’t the last ones!

_-”God still sends people to the lake of fire for sin and unbelief, better get saved before it's too late, eternity is forever!”_

In my opinion, which isn’t much, this is the only accurate thing from that post.


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## ambush80 (Jun 29, 2008)

Dunamis,

You're a fine example of a christian for a non-believer.


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## matthewsman (Jun 29, 2008)

*This thread has strayed a little*

As far as people being saved under a false prophet...

How God is dealing with people may have nothing to do with a preachers/evangelists message,or everything to do with it............While that idiot was kicking ladies in the face in the name of God,God may have been convicting someone of the needs of youth,the homeless,or hungry,with no influence of that blowhard(Did Jesus really show up the next night?The second coming,false prophet?) and they may have sincerely made a decision regardless of the message.

On the other hand,it could have been the old evangilists trick of..."Are you saved?Are you really saved?If you think so,but aren't sure,or if you know you're not,or if you just want some insurance,raise your hand and pray this prater with me..."Somebody in his posse counts hands and determines 879 people and 3 preachers "got saved or 'made decisions'"....

Was it just me,or did that guy not mention ANY scripture whatsoever in any of those clips?How does he have no scriptural basis for what he is doing,but those who "Judge"have scriptural basis for why they feel as they do?

It's not judging,it's measuring by a standard.If you tell me something is a yard long,but it's shorter than a yardstick,it fails in comparison to the standard.The standard is the Bible,and his message falls short.Follow him at your physical(a boot in your or your mamas faceor spiritual peril...


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## kw5891 (Jun 29, 2008)

*judgeing because we dont under stand my my*

let see jesus spit on some dirt and rub in the man eyes  let see how rude of jesus asking the lame man to walk when he could not let see give me some food even tho you only have engough for you and your son  let see moses was not a great speaker how dare him where did he get his digree let see God used a donkey to speak thur let see wow they kill a man and his wife for lieing about giving let see God said  kill your  son.. wow let see God only heal one lady touching him how dare him if he was a man of God the word said he heal them all


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 29, 2008)

I've watching this thread and finally took time to look at the clip above.

About all I have to say, is, in the good old Southern sense,

"Lord, have mercy."


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## matthewsman (Jun 29, 2008)

*There is a difference*



kw5891 said:


> let see jesus spit on some dirt and rub in the man eyes  let see how rude of jesus asking the lame man to walk when he could not let see give me some food even tho you only have engough for you and your son  let see moses was not a great speaker how dare him where did he get his digree let see God used a donkey to speak thur let see wow they kill a man and his wife for lieing about giving let see God said  kill your  son.. wow let see God only heal one lady touching him how dare him if he was a man of God the word said he heal them all



This man ain't Jesus...Jesus did many things we couldn't..But..The blind man wanted to be able to see.Jesus healed him.The healing by dust in his eye formed into mud by the spit of God parallels the "being formed of dust" in God's creation.He needed to see so Jesus didn't punch him in the mouth and knock out a tooth.

The lame man was seeking healing,not picked out of a crowd and kicked in the face...God told him"Take up your bed and walk"Your "evangelists would have pile drived him

Divide the fish and loaves,not kick a worshipper in the face...

Moses was chosen from a baby..remember the bullrushes?He led the Hebrew children for years over many miles,not for a month in Fla...

Even when the donkey spoke,nobody got kicked by the mule..

Was it Annanias and Sophia that were struck dead about giving all?Anyway,God struck them dead,no man choked them out...

Abraham and Issac?(good Lord man,I can't hardly tell what you are referencing)God provided a sacrifice,Issac never felt the knife or took any blows..

The lady pressed close in the crowd for her healing,she sought God..the whole crowd wasn't seeking healing...

This man's ministry in no way follows the healings in the Bible.


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## matthewsman (Jun 29, 2008)

*I'm sorry,I had misread this post earlier*



ambush80 said:


> Dunamis,
> 
> You're a fine example of a christian for a non-believer.



I was thinking it was a sarcastic response to someone else.

Dunamis,this guy is sincere,but the bad news is he's saying that he as a non-believer approves your message as it lets him and other non-believers continue living as they are without any feeling of conviction of their wrong doings.


You can't accept all who say they come in His name.If you do you will be deceived.


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## kw5891 (Jun 29, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> This man ain't Jesus...Jesus did many things we couldn't..But..The blind man wanted to be able to see.Jesus healed him.The healing by dust in his eye formed into mud by the spit of God parallels the "being formed of dust" in God's creation.He needed to see so Jesus didn't punch him in the mouth and knock out a tooth.
> 
> The lame man was seeking healing,not picked out of a crowd and kicked in the face...God told him"Take up your bed and walk"Your "evangelists would have pile drived him
> 
> ...


ok you left out the man who come in his name  elisha asking for lady last meal i could see it now most of the church would say this devil who does he think he is  and i sure most of the people on this site would do the same  i guess it never enough  blame blame blame.. one service this black man jump up and started running around this church  the pastor thought who does he think he. the pastor was reading the word how dare this man distract my service the pastor turn to get the usher to stop him from running. then the holy spirit said to pastor i ask the man to run excuse me said the pastor holy spirit said i told that man if he would get up and run i would heal him of lungs of cancer. pastor r w shamback the bible the word does not talk about running to be heal  so you think it not of God how sad


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## matthewsman (Jun 29, 2008)

*David ran and danced*



kw5891 said:


> ok you left out the man who come in his name  elisha asking for lady last meal i could see it now most of the church would say this devil who does he think he is  and i sure most of the people on this site would do the same  i guess it never enough  blame blame blame.. one service this black man jump up and started running around this church  the pastor thought who does he think he. the pastor was reading the word how dare this man distract my service the pastor turn to get the usher to stop him from running. then the holy spirit said to pastor i ask the man to run excuse me said the pastor holy spirit said i told that man if he would get up and run i would heal him of lungs of cancer. pastor r w shamback the bible the word does not talk about running to be heal  so you think it not of God how sad



That's Biblical.Biblical praise is fine...I didn't leave anybody out,I just couldn't figure out your whole post

Anyway,the one common thought is that noone was bashed on the floor or had teeth knocked out or was kicked in the face by a boot(biker or otherwise) while worshipping in the Bible.


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## tcward (Jun 29, 2008)

NO MAN KNOWS the hour or the day the LORD is to come!  Beware the naysayers! The time matters not, but you MUST be born again!


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## kw5891 (Jun 29, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> That's Biblical.Biblical praise is fine...I didn't leave anybody out,I just couldn't figure out your whole post
> 
> Anyway,the one common thought is that noone was bashed on the floor or had teeth knocked out or was kicked in the face by a boot(biker or otherwise) while worshipping in the Bible.


i my self have not judge this man i am sure he did not pull off her dress turn her up side down swing her thur the air drag her to the altar lol  but sir why do people go to the altar ? it call a meeting place with God . if she heal dont become like the boys in the bible ha jesus it the sabbath. if that lady is heal great may be churchs in georgia start draging people to the altar and beating there legs on the platform lol


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## kw5891 (Jun 29, 2008)

tcward said:


> NO MAN KNOWS the hour or the day the LORD is to come!  Beware the naysayers! The time matters not, but you MUST be born again!


amen


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## kw5891 (Jun 29, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> That's Biblical.Biblical praise is fine...I didn't leave anybody out,I just couldn't figure out your whole post
> 
> Anyway,the one common thought is that noone was bashed on the floor or had teeth knocked out or was kicked in the face by a boot(biker or otherwise) while worshipping in the Bible.


i dont under stand you


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## ambush80 (Jun 29, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> I was thinking it was a sarcastic response to someone else.
> 
> Dunamis,this guy is sincere,but the bad news is he's saying that he as a non-believer approves your message as it lets him and other non-believers continue living as they are without any feeling of conviction of their wrong doings.
> 
> ...



That's right.  Don't be deceived by a compliment from a non-believer that was impressed by the fact that you don't see yourself fit to judge another's faith.  

You other guys keep on judging.  That's what we non-believers expect you to do.  It's what you do best.

Even non-believers can tell when someones being an overbearing zealot.  You all don't have the market cornered on that ability.


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## kw5891 (Jun 29, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> That's Biblical.Biblical praise is fine...I didn't leave anybody out,I just couldn't figure out your whole post
> 
> Anyway,the one common thought is that noone was bashed on the floor or had teeth knocked out or was kicked in the face by a boot(biker or otherwise) while worshipping in the Bible.


if i am dieing please pastor beat my legs on the platform


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## kw5891 (Jun 29, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> That's right.  Don't be deceived by a compliment from a non-believer that was impressed by the fact that you don't see yourself fit to judge another's faith.
> 
> You other guys keep on judging.  That's what we non-believers expect you to do.  It's what you do best.
> 
> Even non-believers can tell when someones being an overbearing zealot.  You all don't have the market cornered on that ability.


lol


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## ambush80 (Jun 29, 2008)

Dunamis said:


> Salvation has absolutely NOTHING to do with piercings in the face, but everything to do with the condition of the heart! This statement is yet another prime example of the erroneous teaching that drives people away from church! To me this statement doesn’t say “come in as you are and we’ll love you anyway”. It judges people and there is no love in that! We are to accept and love people as they are.



Your statements are some of the few that soothe me and make me not fear your religion.  I can sense your conviction and compassion.  I think you realize how happy it makes god is if you don't act like a jerk.

But don't listen to me cause i'm a godless heathen.


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## Dunamis (Jun 29, 2008)

_-"Dunamis, You're a fine example of a Christian for a non-believer"_

I count your comment as an honor, ambush. Praise God! Christ in you is my hope of Glory! Jesus has sure done a work in me over the last few years. But just like the rest of you guys, He's still got His work cut out for Him! There's a lot more junk left in this ole' boy that needs to be cleaned up. I just want to show people the love and forgiveness He's shown me.


_-“I didn't see any of the 12 smacking people in the head, kicking them, or choking them, beating legs against a stage.”

-“In fact, all of you who defend this guy, show me in the BIBLE where that is done to "Save Souls." You guys say how you read the Bible and follow it, it is not in my Bible. I just don't get it.”_

_-“I've never seen a Biblical reference of God instructing anyone to do physical violence to another to heal them or to enhance worship.God doesn't express Himself any differently today than he did in the past."_
_
-"Show me one reference in the Bible where it was suggested that one man of God hit,beat or kicked another to lead to their salvation or as a testament of God's power in a time of peace(this is to exclude some ignorance to David and Goliath or Samson type violence)..…”_


You’re right. I haven’t found a scripture that directly deals supports “WWE” styled ministry. At the same time I’ve not found any that opposes it. The only thing I could find is that the things of the spirit are “foolish” to carnally minded man. Don’t get me wrong, if I had a choice I would personally rather have the simple laying on of hands as opposed the leg drop or full-nelson. On the flip side, there has to be personal accountability. I need to be in a place, spiritually speaking, that I can DISCERN if the Holy Spirit is actually in operation. If I feel that the spirit is not in operation I don’t budge from my seat. If the spirit is not in operation, then the works of the flesh are being born. 

John 3:6 - “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

The bible says that obedience is better than sacrifice. I have to say that if I needed a touch and I knew that having this guy hit me would get my breakthrough I would probably do it. Would you? 

_-“True faith in GOD is tempered over time...not in haste or mass hysteria...I wonder how many of those "saved" as such are still going to church.” _

Not that I defend erroneous teachers or preachers, but there has to be personal accountability. These “preachers” would be preaching to empty buildings if people would take the time to cultivate their own personal relationship with Jesus and study His Word. The bible tells us how to recognize junk.

John 10:27 - "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"



_-”Peircings are an outword expression of the heart, a rebellious heart.”_

The first portion of this quote it true. It is an outward expression of the heart. The second part of this quote is subjective and conditional. Piercings very well could be an expression of a rebellious heart, but it could be many other things as well. It could a cry for affection, acceptance, and a feeling of belonging for someone who has been abused and neglected all of their life and never had friends. 

_-“When a man gets truly saved God changes him.  If you is what you was then you ain't!”_ 

1 Sam 16:7 - “But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for [the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.”

The word translated "heart" is the Hebrew word "lebab (lay-bawb)" which means the inner man, mind, will, understanding, resolution and determination. How does this apply? Based on your response, you’ve gotten your job description twisted. You presume to know the heart of people you don’t know. That’s not your job! You’re job is to love people UNCONDITIONALLY. To welcome the to your church and make them welcomed and loved, without subjecting them to you personal bias or opinion. Love them as they are and let God deal with them on what they need to change. When you go to get cleaned up do you pre-wash before you jump in the tub? Probably not. Only when you do this will they desire that which makes you different than everybody else. 

_-“Yes I judged again!”_

Lord have mercy...


_-”Was it just me,or did that guy not mention ANY scripture whatsoever in any of those clips?How does he have no scriptural basis for what he is doing,but those who "Judge" have scriptural basis for why they feel as they do?”_

This too was an eyebrow-raiser for me. I know a bunch of people that like Joel Osteen. Granted he’s not drop kicking people, but he doesn’t quote a whole lot of scripture either. He does teach biblical principles though.

Let's be specific. Cite erroneous teachings and a your supporting scripture. 


_-”It's not judging,it's measuring by a standard.If you tell me something is a yard long,but it's shorter than a yardstick,it fails in comparison to the standard.The standard is the Bible,and his message falls short.”_

This is good! The problem is that people are too lazy to learn what the standard is! They would rather use their neighbor’s measuring stick rather than thier own. You have to know the standard before you can measure by it


_-”Jesus did many things we couldn't_”

That’s not scriptural

John 14:12 - “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.”

_-”The healing by dust in his eye formed into mud by the spit of God parallels the "being formed of dust" in God's creation.”_

Could you elaborate, because I don’t follow…

_-”this guy is sincere, but the bad news is he's saying that he as a non-believer approves your message as it lets him and other non-believers continue living as they are without any feeling of conviction of their wrong doings.”_

The Word has “levels” of truth. It’s like an onion, it has layers. Let me plain and clear, my words are not giving any one a license to live in an uneducated lifestyle practicing willful sin. There has to be balance and personal accountability.


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## Dunamis (Jun 30, 2008)

Again, thanks for the comments! Jesus loves you, bud! Even if you are a heathen!


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## Mako22 (Jun 30, 2008)

What is missing here is repentance and without it you cannot be saved. What some want is Jesus without repenting of their sin. In other words they want to sing in the choir on Sunday's but live like Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- (lake of fire) on Monday - Saturday. God don't work that way fellas! See Acts 20:19-20

I did not use profanity in this post, I just used a bible word for the under world where sinners spend eternity.


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## Dunamis (Jun 30, 2008)

It's not missing? Who brings repentence and conviction?  The Holy Spirit does and believe me He don't need our help. All we do is mess things up. People have to feel welcomed and loved by you or your church before they will be still enough to hear the holy spirit and His conviction. You have to earn the trust and permission to speak in to someone elses' life. You can't just beat them over the head with the word.

Which is easier: love them into the Kingdom and let Jesus show them things in thier life that need to be changed; Beat them over the head with the word and mold them into what we deem a christian should look like?


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## justthinking (Jun 30, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUTCWLoD4-4

Here's a link to this idiot kneeing a staget 4 cancer patient in the stomach.

How do you imbed these YouTube videos directly into a post???


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## matthewsman (Jun 30, 2008)

*he is an idiot...*



justthinking said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUTCWLoD4-4
> 
> Here's a link to this idiot kneeing a staget 4 cancer patient in the stomach.
> 
> How do you imbed these YouTube videos directly into a post???



<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DUTCWLoD4-4&hl=en"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DUTCWLoD4-4&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## justthinking (Jul 2, 2008)

Thanks for putting that in there! Can you also tell me the steps for embedding clips in the future?


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## jkdodge (Jul 2, 2008)

I for one went down to the revival in Lakeland. I had never seen this guy before and started watching God Tv with my wife. I was  down visiting my folks in FL and decided to go over to the revival. Be careful not to judge. I saw nothing biblicaly wrong with what was going on down there and It was actually pretty neat. There were a little over 9000 people there the night I was there and God moved in a big way.  I know Todd looks different and serves the lord a little different than traditional church but hey that might be what we have been missing. I haven't seen revival break out like this in Traditional church. They have been going 90 days strong and still having folks from over 40 different countries coming nightly. God needs to wake up America some way. One of Todd's big things is that he is sick and tired of religion and to be totally honest with you so am I. Too many people playing church and worried what color carpet to put in the foyer rather than saving souls. I would be very careful of judging this man of God. Every one is entitled to their own opinions just be careful not to bash a man of God you will be held accountable for it.


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## Dunamis (Jul 2, 2008)

My thoughts exactly...


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Jul 2, 2008)

I've never read in the Bible where Jesus said go into all the world and kick stage 4 cancer patients in the stomach. The Bible says to try the spirits to see whether they be of God. I see nothing in the Bible that supports this kind of ''religion''.


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## Dunamis (Jul 2, 2008)

You don't see anything that says "don't have body piercings", "don't have green hair", "or refrain from personal hygiene" either.


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## PWalls (Jul 2, 2008)

Dunamis said:


> You don't see anything that says "don't have body piercings", "don't have green hair", "or refrain from personal hygiene" either.



But how is physically assaulting someone Biblical either? The miracles that Jesus performed as well as the apostles were not "physical" were they? Jesus didn't beat the snot out of the guy to get Legion to go into the pigs.

I am less concerned about this guy's ministry as I am to the method. Is he doing it for show? Or, is the Holy Spirit truly leading him to kick someone or do the "physical" things? Is that truly necessary versus a simple laying on of hands? Of course, the physical stuff does make for greater TV I guess.


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## Dunamis (Jul 2, 2008)

PWalls said:


> But how is physically assaulting someone Biblical either? The miracles that Jesus performed as well as the apostles were not "physical" were they? Jesus didn't beat the snot out of the guy to get Legion to go into the pigs.
> 
> I am less concerned about this guy's ministry as I am to the method. Is he doing it for show? Or, is the Holy Spirit truly leading him to kick someone or do the "physical" things? Is that truly necessary versus a simple laying on of hands? Of course, the physical stuff does make for greater TV I guess.




I was kidding with the whole piercings and hair color comment, even though I did have blue and green hair with a tongue at one time. All I know is that I love Jesus. Whether we deem it "biblical" or "christian-like" for this man to act as He does is of little consequence. Who am I to tell God the He's not allowed to moved this way simply because I can't wrap my head around it...


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## kw5891 (Jul 2, 2008)

PWalls said:


> But how is physically assaulting someone Biblical either? The miracles that Jesus performed as well as the apostles were not "physical" were they? Jesus didn't beat the snot out of the guy to get Legion to go into the pigs.
> 
> I am less concerned about this guy's ministry as I am to the method. Is he doing it for show? Or, is the Holy Spirit truly leading him to kick someone or do the "physical" things? Is that truly necessary versus a simple laying on of hands? Of course, the physical stuff does make for greater TV I guess.


no jesus spit on dirt what will you all say about someone doing that ? spiting on dirt then rubing in man eyes . i know most of you would say jesus that  was not of God  you know you would  how sad . the bible call you all sadoltee


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## kw5891 (Jul 2, 2008)

jkdodge said:


> I for one went down to the revival in Lakeland. I had never seen this guy before and started watching God Tv with my wife. I was  down visiting my folks in FL and decided to go over to the revival. Be careful not to judge. I saw nothing biblicaly wrong with what was going on down there and It was actually pretty neat. There were a little over 9000 people there the night I was there and God moved in a big way.  I know Todd looks different and serves the lord a little different than traditional church but hey that might be what we have been missing. I haven't seen revival break out like this in Traditional church. They have been going 90 days strong and still having folks from over 40 different countries coming nightly. God needs to wake up America some way. One of Todd's big things is that he is sick and tired of religion and to be totally honest with you so am I. Too many people playing church and worried what color carpet to put in the foyer rather than saving souls. I would be very careful of judging this man of God. Every one is entitled to their own opinions just be careful not to bash a man of God you will be held accountable for it.


thank you


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## Mako22 (Jul 2, 2008)

jkdodge said:


> I for one went down to the revival in Lakeland. I had never seen this guy before and started watching God Tv with my wife. I was  down visiting my folks in FL and decided to go over to the revival. Be careful not to judge. I saw nothing biblicaly wrong with what was going on down there and It was actually pretty neat. There were a little over 9000 people there the night I was there and God moved in a big way.  I know Todd looks different and serves the lord a little different than traditional church but hey that might be what we have been missing. I haven't seen revival break out like this in Traditional church. They have been going 90 days strong and still having folks from over 40 different countries coming nightly. God needs to wake up America some way. One of Todd's big things is that he is sick and tired of religion and to be totally honest with you so am I. Too many people playing church and worried what color carpet to put in the foyer rather than saving souls. I would be very careful of judging this man of God. Every one is entitled to their own opinions just be careful not to bash a man of God you will be held accountable for it.



You didn't see anything unbiblical because you don't know what's in the Bible to begin with.


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## kw5891 (Jul 2, 2008)

carters93 said:


> You didn't see anything unbiblical because you don't know what's in the Bible to begin with.


carters93 go ahead repent your feel better come on now  we love ya all us georgia foke will keep you in prayer


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## addictedtodeer (Jul 2, 2008)

The burden of proof is always on the one arguing for change or difference.

This is different from scripture, therefore those who are arguing for it must prove it does not violate scripture.

Healing first and foremost must bring glory to God alone, for He is the one who does it. No man can control God (if they claim it that clearly violates scripture do not believe them).

Any man claiming to know when Christ will return clearly violates scripture.

There are guidelines to follow for healing (see James 5). Prayer of the elders (note multiple elders not one), laying of hands upon the one who is sick. Any violations of this violates scripture and are not of God.

How do we know this?
Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 

There will never be a Violation of scripture from a revival sent by God; however, we are told that Satan can and will attempt to mislead with false signs and wonders. Satan will violate scripture.

If it agrees with scripture then Amen! If it violates 1 truth (no matter how small) Run!


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## kw5891 (Jul 2, 2008)

addictedtodeer said:


> The burden of proof is always on the one arguing for change or difference.
> 
> This is different from scripture, therefore those who are arguing for it must prove it does not violate scripture.
> 
> ...


remember it was the church and so call christian you condem jesus


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## matthewsman (Jul 2, 2008)

*something to think about brother*



Dunamis said:


> You don't see anything that says "don't have body piercings", "don't have green hair", "or refrain from personal hygiene" either.



You don't see anything in the Bible saying you can't spin in a circle and click your heals together to get into Heaven.

The Bible speaks plainly of what's needed for salvation.It's also clear about healings and how we are to go about them...

There is no Biblical example of healing taking place in the same(or even close to the same)way this man performs them...

If his interpretation of Biblical healing is off by that much,who knows how far off doctrinally in other areas he is?


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## Dunamis (Jul 2, 2008)

matthewsman said:


> You don't see anything in the Bible saying you can't spin in a circle and click your heals together to get into Heaven.
> 
> The Bible speaks plainly of what's needed for salvation.It's also clear about healings and how we are to go about them...
> 
> ...





Again, I am not defending this guy, but I want to try something. There are a lot of people saying how unbiblical this this revival is. For every one item that is deemed "unbiblical", cite a supporting text for your argument.


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## jkdodge (Jul 2, 2008)

carters93 said:


> You didn't see anything unbiblical because you don't know what's in the Bible to begin with.



Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged

Carters, Im not sure where you get off by saying I dont know my Bible. You sir just did something that God tells us not to. You judged me I guess your bible does not have that in there. You porbally want me to argue a fact with you that to be honest im not sure where you are coming from. Ill pray for you that God will open your eyes.  I am a man of God, I am proud of it. Do I worship like Todd B,  probally not. If you will re read my post maby then Sir you will understand what I was trying to say. Have you Been to the Revival????? Be very careful to judge. I would hate for you to be judged by god for trying to harm a fellow beleiver. Obviousily you sir are exactly what i was saying about Religion.  My god says I am a sinner saved by grace. Show me a man with out sin? When Carter is the last time you repented of your sins.


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## Dunamis (Jul 2, 2008)

jkdodge - Isn't it interesting how you can tell who knows the word and who doesn't based on some of the responses we get?


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## kw5891 (Jul 2, 2008)

Dunamis said:


> jkdodge - Isn't it interesting how you can tell who knows the word and who doesn't based on some of the responses we get?


the word as you call it does not say God will give you as much time as you give him  but it true.  allso the bible does not say jesus went to the rest room  so base on your views what say you ?


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## jkdodge (Jul 2, 2008)

Dunamis said:


> jkdodge - Isn't it interesting how you can tell who knows the word and who doesn't based on some of the responses we get?



 Dunamis, You know this is what im sick and tired of. RELIGION>>  How come we as beleivers can not come together wether you are Baptist, Pentacostal,Luthern,Methodist, Etc and realize your (Docturn) may be different but we are under the sam GOD and his word. Inturpation of the bible can be given several different way according to docturn. I say this. I am a Sinner saved by Grace. I love the Lord with all that I am and try to serv him daily as if today is my last day. Lets come together as fellow christians and win this country for god. Lets not argue religion. lets stop pointing fingers and win souls for christ. God bless you all that have stood for what you beleive in and do it out of love for those that havent well its plain and simple you are judging and that is a sin.  God bless you all. Im not trying to start a war here I just was saying that I had been to the revival and it was a life changing experience for me and the way I view Religion. I want nothing more than the holy spirt to rain in my life in my church in my family in my job. Can you imagine if revival broke out across America like it has in Lakeland. The reason it dosent I beleive is because of people on here that bash and judge instead of stand aside and pray for god to show them what they need to do. Why fight fellow christians. No your not going to change the way I inturpit the Bible but im not going to try and change the way you do either. Lets pray together and worship our lord and savior. He is worthy of our praise no matter what way we do it just do it. WOW did the holy spirt just touch me while writing this post.      May the name of Jesus be lifted High, lifted High may the name of Jesus be lifted high in this place  http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=6cc63f4c0bdbc9903e63


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## kw5891 (Jul 2, 2008)

jkdodge said:


> Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged
> 
> Carters, Im not sure where you get off by saying I dont know my Bible. You sir just did something that God tells us not to. You judged me I guess your bible does not have that in there. You porbally want me to argue a fact with you that to be honest im not sure where you are coming from. Ill pray for you that God will open your eyes.  I am a man of God, I am proud of it. Do I worship like Todd B,  probally not. If you will re read my post maby then Sir you will understand what I was trying to say. Have you Been to the Revival????? Be very careful to judge. I would hate for you to be judged by god for trying to harm a fellow beleiver. Obviousily you sir are exactly what i was saying about Religion.  My god says I am a sinner saved by grace. Show me a man with out sin? When Carter is the last time you repented of your sins.


brother paul also tell us a none spiritual man can not judge a spiritual man


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## jkdodge (Jul 2, 2008)

carters93 said:


> You didn't see anything unbiblical because you don't know what's in the Bible to begin with.



Carters, I left out one thing Im sorry I did not respond earlier when you posted I was in CHURCH at 7:40


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## jkdodge (Jul 2, 2008)

kw5891 said:


> brother paul also tell us a none spiritual man can not judge a spiritual man



amen brother


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## kw5891 (Jul 2, 2008)

*revival*

i was on a trip in canada hunting deer when these 2 men came in from georgia at dinner they where telling every one . they said brother when we have church we read along with the pastor preaching if it not word for word we show him by the WORD were he miss it. please i am not inpress it sad that some baptist give other a bad taste in there mouth. for all us christian jesus did say i go to be with the father but i leave with you ?????? what..  it call holy spirit not words along but the comforters jesus said IF you dont believe what i say believe the miracle you see. becareful not to become a sadducees  if this statement rub you wrong then sir you are just like all those cant see cant bee  and are blind ps i have the word as you say to back this statment up


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## ambush80 (Jul 3, 2008)

PWalls said:


> But how is physically assaulting someone Biblical either? The miracles that Jesus performed as well as the apostles were not "physical" were they? Jesus didn't beat the snot out of the guy to get Legion to go into the pigs.
> 
> I am less concerned about this guy's ministry as I am to the method. Is he doing it for show? Or, is the Holy Spirit truly leading him to kick someone or do the "physical" things? Is that truly necessary versus a simple laying on of hands? Of course, the physical stuff does make for greater TV I guess.



Who are you to judge?


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## ambush80 (Jul 3, 2008)

carters93 said:


> You didn't see anything unbiblical because you don't know what's in the Bible to begin with.




You must be some kind of prophet to know with such certainty what the bible says.


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## olcowman (Jul 3, 2008)

The last time I seen somebody whacking at a crippled lady's legs, a kickin' folks with his biker boots and choking people....that feller ended up getting severly beat up by a herd of hippies, throwed out of the juke joint and hauled off by some sheriff's deputies. 

I reckon if he had been in church, he could of got by with it and maybe even earned a few dollars from passing the plate around to the folks who hadn't had their tails whipped at that night's service. Maybe I aint been going to the right kind of church, but I was purty sure I had seen the last of that kind of behaviour when I quit hanging out at beer joints and tried to straighten out some?

If the Lord has got anything to do with the way ol' Preacher Bentley puts on the show, then yeah, he sure does work in some mysterious ways.


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## ambush80 (Jul 3, 2008)

olcowman said:


> If the Lord has got anything to do with the way ol' Preacher Bentley puts on the show, then yeah, he sure does work in some mysterious ways.




Indeed, he may.


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## matthewsman (Jul 3, 2008)

*again,let's go back to context*



jkdodge said:


> Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged
> 
> Carters, Im not sure where you get off by saying I dont know my Bible. You sir just did something that God tells us not to. You judged me I guess your bible does not have that in there. You porbally want me to argue a fact with you that to be honest im not sure where you are coming from. Ill pray for you that God will open your eyes.  I am a man of God, I am proud of it. Do I worship like Todd B,  probally not. If you will re read my post maby then Sir you will understand what I was trying to say. Have you Been to the Revival????? Be very careful to judge. I would hate for you to be judged by god for trying to harm a fellow beleiver. Obviousily you sir are exactly what i was saying about Religion.  My god says I am a sinner saved by grace. Show me a man with out sin? When Carter is the last time you repented of your sins.




Here is you verse along with the rest....

The caution IS about judging and carries with it qualifiers,saying that however you judge,you will be judged likewise...I am secure in how I judge,it is by Biblical standards...

Matthew 7:1-6
1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mk. 4.24 

3  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6  ¶ Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.


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## matthewsman (Jul 3, 2008)

*I am glad to see y'all asking for scripture.*

James 5:13-20

13  ¶ Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

14  Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil Mk. 6.13 in the name of the Lord:

15  and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16  Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

17  Eli'jah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 1 Kgs. 17.1 ; 18.1 

18  And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, 1 Kgs. 18.42-45 and the earth brought forth her fruit.

19  ¶ Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20  let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. 


 14 Gives a pretty clear idea of how people are to be healed Biblicly....

19 Is for Brothers(not same mom and dad but fellow Christians) erring from the Truth and needing correction..

20 says that if he is changed and converts sinners,the sinners will be saved...

Now,show me any example in the Bible,where a healing or deliverence was administered by violence to the one in need

I've shown you where and how it is to be done Biblicly,that's the authority I have...What authority does this guy work under?If it is not the Biblical authority of God?Well who is it..I have one more verse for you...


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## matthewsman (Jul 3, 2008)

*Matthew 24:24-28*

24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25  Behold, I have told you before.

26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Lk. 17.23, 24 

28  For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together 


Don't run here and there after those who perform signs...God will deal with you where you are...Beware of those who still do signs,if it is done in a Biblical manner..welll

BUT,if it is not,beware...Some will be deceived...


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## PWalls (Jul 3, 2008)

kw5891 said:


> no jesus spit on dirt what will you all say about someone doing that ? spiting on dirt then rubing in man eyes . i know most of you would say jesus that  was not of God  you know you would  how sad . the bible call you all sadoltee




What is a "sadoltee". Need help with that. Although I feel like it is an insulting term. 


Spitting on dirt and rubbing it on a man's eyes is a little different than kicking or punching someone. Thanks for the Biblical reference though that clearly shows a non-violent miracle by Jesus for us to use as a model.


I don't know the man nor have I seen him. All I can do is use my discernment of what I am seeing and base it on what I read in the Bible. So far, the two are not matching.


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## PWalls (Jul 3, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> Who are you to judge?



Not judging. Applying discernment.


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## toddboucher (Jul 3, 2008)

Its sad but funny, I believe we are to stand and yes Judge was doctrine or dogma is being preached. But today people said and quote one point over and over and its judge. They are saying let anyone act and say anything they want under the name of Christ and its ok as long as you don't judge. If we study the bible we clearly see warning against wolfs coming in, and warning against false doctrine and false prophets. Someone comes into your family to destroy it, will you not flee and warn others about them. I guess I'm wrong lets not judge that person, some here are acting above others because they will not judge. Well paul and peter both used judgment. I think you are using that word judgement out of line, If your pastor comes in Sunday with a dress on, sounds like you're say you will not judge that person.


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## kw5891 (Jul 3, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Since you like the guy so much and seem to believe in his "powers" please provide evidence of people healed by this man and verified by Medical doctors.


never seen him  it just how your acting


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## kw5891 (Jul 3, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Since you like the guy so much and seem to believe in his "powers" please provide evidence of people healed by this man and verified by Medical doctors.


what you sound like is what the bible worn us about mmm let see it call the accuser of the brothers  is that you and some of the other too ?


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## jmharris23 (Jul 3, 2008)

Ya'll continue on in this debate if you want, but some of you need to be careful not to make a personal attack on someone. 


Just a reminder, so I don't have to pull this thread!


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## PWalls (Jul 3, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> Ya'll continue on in this debate if you want, but some of you need to be careful not to make a personal attack on someone.
> 
> 
> Just a reminder, so I don't have to pull this thread!



What is your opinion on this topic?


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## Dunamis (Jul 3, 2008)

_-“The burden of proof is always on the one arguing for change or difference. This is different from scripture, therefore those who are arguing for it must prove it does not violate scripture.”_
So those that are opposed to this move and the thing that are coming out of this move can simply say “it’s unbiblical” with no supporting scripture, but to support it means that I must prove my case? Erroneous! 

_-“Healing first and foremost must bring glory to God alone, for He is the one who does it. No man can control God (if they claim it that clearly violates scripture do not believe them).”_

This is true! Every goof gift comes from the father. It’s is for God’s glory and not our own. Has this man (Todd Bentley) claimed he (Todd Bentley) healed people? In the interview I saw, he mentioned that it was all God.

_-“Any man claiming to know when Christ will return clearly violates scripture.”_

Another example of erroneous information. This came from the video where Todd reads from a letter written by his colleague, Wendy. She, via the letter, says that Jesus himself will visit the service the following night. He did not say that he knew when the second coming was.

_-“There are guidelines to follow for healing (see James 5). Prayer of the elders (note multiple elders not one), laying of hands upon the one who is sick. Any violations of this violates scripture and are not of God.”_

There’s noting that says James chapter five were the “guidelines for receiving healing”? The only “guideline”, should you want to call it that, is faith. The text you quoted means that if someone be in need of prayer to go and ask people that are more experienced/mature in the faith than they are (elders) . Again, there is nothing to violate. These are not guidelines. To think otherwise is to assume God is confined to produce healing when these “guidelines” are followed. It isn’t an equation to healing. There are people that receive healing when they pray for themselves or receive prayers from geographically separated believers WITHOUT the laying on of hands. Are these people in error?

Matt18:19 -”That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.”

Touching here means “concerning” anything, not physically or literally touching.



_-“How do we know this? Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.”_

This verse can not be used in the context you use it. To use it this way would be to call God a liar when Moses persuaded Him NOT to destroy the people of Israel. This verse describes the nature of Jesus and Kingdom principles.


_-“There will never be a Violation of scripture from a revival sent by God; however, we are told that Satan can and will attempt to mislead with false signs and wonders. Satan will violate scripture.”_

Amen! You are right! That is why I would like for someone to produce a post that shows “violation” of the Word and Kingdom Principles.


_-“If it agrees with scripture then Amen! If it violates 1 truth (no matter how small) Run!”_

Amen!

__”There is no Biblical example of healing taking place in the same(or even close to the same)way this man performs them. If his interpretation of Biblical healing is off by that much, who knows how far off doctrinally in other areas he is?_

I’m am all about things lining up with the Word,. God will NEVER go against His Word! Let me ask you this, seeing as there is nothing that says God can’t move in this fashion. If God is God, is He restricted to doing things exactly as He’s always done things or can He move in a different way should He decide to?” 

_-”The Bible speaks plainly of what's needed for salvation. It's also clear about healings and how we are to go about them...”_

Elaborate, please?



_-”The caution IS about judging and carries with it qualifiers, saying that however you judge, you will be judged likewise...I am secure in how I judge, it is by Biblical standards...”_

You are right, bud. It will be measured unto us that which we measure to others. Do you think that God is confined to do things the way He’s always done them?


_-”If the Lord has got anything to do with the way ol' Preacher Bentley puts on the show, then yeah, he sure does work in some mysterious ways.”_

Yea, I hear ya! I once heard about a girl that got a demon literally knocked out of her with a Bible! I mean, whoa! You know what? The Lord does have some mysterious ways. Who are we to condemn something unless it first contradicts the Word of God?


_-”14 Gives a pretty clear idea of how people are to be healed Biblically....”_

There’s nothing that says James chapter five were the “guidelines for receiving healing”? The only “guideline”, should you want to call it that, is faith. The text you quoted means that if someone be in need of prayer to go and ask people that are more experienced/mature in the faith than they are (elders) . Again, there is nothing to violate. These are not guidelines. To think otherwise is to assume God is confined to produce healing when these “guidelines” are followed. It isn’t an equation to healing. There are people that receive healing when they pray for themselves or receive prayers from geographically separated believers WITHOUT the laying on of hands. Are these people in error?


_-”19 Is for Brothers(not same mom and dad but fellow Christians) erring from the Truth and needing correction. 20 says that if he is changed and converts sinners, the sinners will be saved...”_
Again, I still don’t see any err…

_-”Now, show me any example in the Bible, where a healing or deliverance was administered by violence to the one in need”_

I can not produce a text of scripture that says “thou shalt use a drop kick”. It simply isn’t there. At the same time, I’m not convinced that I need to condemn this thing and say He’s of the Devil.

__“I've shown you where and how it is to be done Biblically, that's the authority I have...What authority does this guy work under? If it is not the Biblical authority of God? Well who is it..I have one more verse for you…”_

Yes, you have shown me how God instructed people to ask and receive prayer. However, I’m not convinced that God can only do things that way He did them in the Bible. He would never contradict His Word, but He not confined to operate in just that way.

_-”Don't run here and there after those who perform signs...God will deal with you where you are...Beware of those who still do signs,if it is done in a Biblical manner..welll BUT,if it is not,beware...Some will be deceived...”_

Can be applied to anybody…

_-”Spitting on dirt and rubbing it on a man's eyes is a little different than kicking or punching someone. Thanks for the Biblical reference though that clearly shows a non-violent miracle by Jesus for us to use as a model.”_

I like this example. I think it has less to do with the lack of violence in his reference and more to do with how unorthodox the way He chose to heal this man. It wasn’t the laying on of hands?

_-”They are saying let anyone act and say anything they want under the name of Christ and its ok as long as you don't judge. If we study the bible we clearly see warning against wolfs coming in, and warning against false doctrine and false prophets. Someone comes into your family to destroy it, will you not flee and warn others about them.”_

Who are “they”? I’ve definitely never said that. If you will note a previous post by myself: “Let me plain and clear, my words are not giving any one a license to live in an uneducated lifestyle practicing willful sin. There has to be balance and personal accountability.” Todd I see nothing wrong with what I feel your intentions were when you started this thread. The real issue is that there are a lot of people that do not know the difference between judging and discerning. If you sincerely feel a check in your spirit after RESEARCHING out what’s going on in LAKELAND, no just watching a couple you tube videos, and balancing out what you’ve seen against the WHOLE Word, then you are discerning. However, if you don’t educate yourself about what’s going on in Lakeland  and you don’t weigh against the Word, but decide it’s not of God simply because you don’t understand it and it doesn’t make sense to you? That’s casting judgment.


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## jmharris23 (Jul 3, 2008)

Well here it is:

I think that this man who calls himself a pastor is a big fat fraud. I don't believe for even a second that this has anything to do with God.

It saddens me that there are people who actually believe that this man is of God. 

This is so far away from God that it is pitiful. 

Just so you know: I believe in the supernatural / miraculous healings of God. I believe that God does things that we will never grasp or understand. I believe that the Holy Spirit of God can so bring His presence into a group of people that there is no denying HE was there. But God heals a person through their faith, by His grace and love.

He doesn't need some loco pastor going around kicking old and sick people in the stomach and face just so he can put on some kind of show. 

Bottom line is I beleive that this guy is ridiculous. 

For those who want to call this judgment go ahead. 

Now before you pull out the way over used and woefully misquoted  and misunderstood Matthew 7:1 again, let me 'splain something to you.

Scripture calls us as Christians not to place judgement on the lost and dying world because that is God's job.

But it also calls us over and over again to be those who use "righteous judgement" and perform our duty as "fruit inspectors."

While we are told not to judge those who are not Christians we are called to judge those who call themselves Christians

Now as to whether this man is a Christian or not I will not say. But I will say he is doing great harm to the cause of the kingdom.


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## ambush80 (Jul 3, 2008)

Woodswalker said:


> -this whole thingy about the varieties of religious experience bothers me greatly.
> 
> William James, and all, don'cha know? that is to say, when the BlackRobes bring the truth, sounds like somebody at the hands of the Europeans are fixin' to die.
> 
> ...



who let you out of the doctrine box?


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## ambush80 (Jul 3, 2008)

Woodswalker said:


> what color is the box that we're all supposed to reside in, all so comfortably?



Lambs blood red?


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## jkdodge (Jul 4, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> Well here it is:
> 
> I think that this man who calls himself a pastor is a big fat fraud. I don't believe for even a second that this has anything to do with God.
> 
> ...



What harm is he doing? Just curious. Do you know this mans heart? Just because he does something a little different is it wrong? Im not saying I agree with how he acts im just saying how do you judge him when you dont know his heart. What if God really told him to do that? What fruit are you inspecting? you are correct god does tell us not to judge the lost and deying. But one thing you did not cover that god also talks about is Putting down a man of god. How can you say he is not a preacher? Calling him a big fat fraud is pretty harsh if you ask me. I would hope as christians as I assume you are would pick better terms to talk about someone that says he is a christian. Wouldent there be a better way to describe how you felt about a man in a little nicer way. If you dont know this mans heart Well I guess I will throw the Matthew 7:1 out there again. Have you been to the revival and felt the spirt of god so strong it brings a man to tears? Whats fradulant about that. I have sat through a many church services in the past 34 years that I never felt the spirt of God like that in. Some of the best preachers around too.  Billy G,Jack Hiles,Rod Parsley,Jerry F,. Im not trying to stir the pot here but untill you have personally experienced a service with this man in it I dont feel that you can call the man a Big Fat Fraud. Let me ask you this. If God spoke to you and told you to do something and it was out of the norm would you listen? If you would have been alive and saw Peter get out of the boat and walk on water how would have you felt?  This guy is crazy to do this or did Peter listen to God and  stood on faith got up and walked across the water. Or imagine this when the Israelites were fleeing from the Egyptians and the Lord told Moses Stretch out your hand over the sea so that the waters may flow back over the Egyptians. What if Moses had not obayed god saying man thats crazy how in the world am I going to part a sea with my hand.  Its simply this its called Faith. I beleive Todd B has faith alot stronger than you or I. Would I personally hit someone or throw a knee in somones gut no. But if god told me to do it I know one thing I better listen. You and I both dont know that answer if God told him to do that and you would be lieing if you said you did. If you dont agree with how things are being done turn the channel, Dont watch. But I ask you this to please not condemn if you dont condone. I feel everyone is free to believe in whatever religion they please. But in doing so you shouldn't knock anyone else's beliefs or non-belief. You should live what you say you believe. I think it would make a better impact upon others when you try to voice those beliefs. At least it would have merit then. In other words, do not judge me or this man without judging yourself first! The popularity, Bentley says, has not enriched him personally. He told Fox News in a June14 appearance he had received no money from Lakeland offerings. He says he gets a modest paycheck every two weeks from his nonprofit ministry. 

A Vancouver newspaper reported in April that property records showed Bentley “lives a modest life.” It said he owned an Abbotsford, B.C., home, a 2007 GMC Sierra and a 2003 Harley-Davidson motorcycle.

Bentley has said he was a rebellious teen, serving time in youth prisons, listening to satanic music and overdosing on drugs three times. He said he had a dramatic conversion at age 17 to Christianity. 

He said most of his tattoos are from his pre-Christian days, but he makes no apologies for them.

“I love art and, to me, my skin is the canvas,” he said. “I'm not taking my skin to heaven

Brother I love you in christ im sorry that me beleiving this man is real bothers you. But as for me and my house we will serve the Lord my God.  I have never heard Todd give himself credit for the healings. I have how ever heard him say God heals a person through their faith, by His grace and love never one time have I heard him say come and be healed by Todd Bentley. Well I promise this is the last I will post on this subject. Like I said im not bashing you for your stand. But please as a fellow christian return the respect. That is what god tells us to do. You know the funny thing about this. I probally would have sided with you on all of this untill I actually went and was part of the Revival. I remeber when I first started watching this Tattoed guy and how I felt. I actually prayed about it asking god to show me. Well He did. He showed me that my box was too square. God is moving in a big way in Lakeland. Many souls are being saved, many people are being healed and I can back that up for you if you would like. We are at a time in our country of spirtuial war fare and if you cant see this you better wake up. What if it takes a man to kick someone in the gutt to wake up others to pay attention. I know watching the Red sea part would have gotten mine. God bless you all. I dont post this to make people mad I post this because I feel the lord has impressed on me to state the truth. I for one will never go back to Religion. Im sick of Religion. I want God and only gods ways. I hope one day you can step outside of your square box and realize god uses so many different things that we see as weird or what ever but I promise you this from after being in that revival it is real!


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## jmharris23 (Jul 4, 2008)

Jkdodge,

 Thats a great post and I feel your heart in it.

When you accuse me of putting God in a box you misunderstand what I am trying to say here.

I am not saying that God cannot work in a man to heal people, I am not saying that men can't have a "supernatural" filling of the spirit. 

I am saying this and only this: that if you think for one minute that I am gonna believe that God told a man to kick an old woman in the face,to drop kick a pastor, and to punch a guy with stage 4 metastatic cancer in the gut so that they could be healed, here and only here my dear brother is where we will have to part ways.

I don't know you and you don't know me, so you have no idea what kind of crazy things I have or have not done for God. 

But if God told me to punch someone in the face, I would wonder if I had actually heard God. That's what I would do.

But hey, to each their own. Maybe using "big fat fraud" was harsh. Maybe too harsh and for that I apologize. 

So I will try to be nicer and say it this was that I believe that the man is either terribly deceived or a great deceiver. 

But I could be wrong, I honestly do not know, and will not know on this side of heaven. 

But you and I both serve a big and powerful God, who is full of grace, mercy, and love. 

I guess all I can say is this: Were I to be wrong in judging this man then God have mercy on me. But I am just as convinced that he is wrong that you are he is right. 

So I guess we agree to disagree. Something that has to be done alot in this forum


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## jkdodge (Jul 4, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> Jkdodge,
> 
> Thats a great post and I feel your heart in it.
> 
> ...



I appreciate the kind words, I agree with what you said. And really that is what im trying to say as well. I dont really think you need to punch or kick either I was just saying what if god told him to do that. I appreciate the fact that wether we agree or disagree we are still brothers in Christ. God bless you.


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## olcowman (Jul 4, 2008)

Jmharris....you didn't just make a personal attack on this preacherman did ya? I agree with dawg about his granmama, if the Lord is telling him to beat up old ladies and such, he better be teaching him how to heal knots on his own head and how to get "Sunday go to meeting shoes"  dislodged from his hind end.

JM, I just messing with ya...moderators with opinions are spooky sometimes, but as long as they agree with mine it's ok!


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Jul 4, 2008)

olcowman said:


> JM, I just messing with ya...moderators with opinions are spooky sometimes, but as long as they agree with mine it's ok!



If they all just understood that.............


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## kw5891 (Jul 4, 2008)

jkdodge said:


> I appreciate the kind words, I agree with what you said. And really that is what im trying to say as well. I dont really think you need to punch or kick either I was just saying what if god told him to do that. I appreciate the fact that wether we agree or disagree we are still brothers in Christ. God bless you.


there are to many people dieing to soon most bad choices every day we drive by a grave yard  there where songs to be sung & souls to be won but most gave up when things look bad we all at some point think o well it God will. i have many friends who gave up when getting sick  ? why one reason they cant wait to get to heaven.when God has made a way for healing take it  i tell you this if i lay dieing get me up i pray that i will not die one second before God plan is fulfield in my life. the danger is opening up your bible and trying to justfy everything to your understanding  i my self do not pick up the bible on every thing why ? because if it not God character that when you grow as paul said words along kill but the holy spirit bring life. jesus sent  the apostle to heal to case out devil & to preach the good news  not to forgive people of there sins   some pull your legs some sent pigs running of a cliff.  do you think God will look at your heart on how to respond to this man ???????. before paul was touch by God he kill christian  what do you think was said by love ones  that paul had kill when paul came to town preaching ??


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## jmharris23 (Jul 4, 2008)

olcowman said:


> Jmharris....you didn't just make a personal attack on this preacherman did ya? I agree with dawg about his granmama, if the Lord is telling him to beat up old ladies and such, he better be teaching him how to heal knots on his own head and how to get "Sunday go to meeting shoes"  dislodged from his hind end.
> 
> JM, I just messing with ya...moderators with opinions are spooky sometimes, but as long as they agree with mine it's ok!





I agree! Moderators with opinions are scary

As far as attacking the preacherman, ya'll remember I am one. 

Every morning I wake up and am reminded of the task that God has given me to be the under-shepherd to a group of people whom He has called to minister to the community in which we live.

It is a daunting and scary task, one that I do not take lightly. 

I read four passages of scripture every morning when I get up and every time I am about to preach that speak to this very thing:

1 Timothy 1:5-7

5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

1 Timothy 6:3-5

3If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, 5and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

James 3:1

1Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

Psalm 19:14

14	Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heartBe acceptable in Your sight,O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer.


So I guess, as a fellow minister of the word this 'ol boy Todd Bentley just rubs me the wrong way.


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Jul 4, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> So I guess, as a fellow minister of the word this 'ol boy Todd Bentley just rubs me the wrong way.



He has that affect on this Ole Deacon too.


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## ambush80 (Jul 4, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> I don't know you and you don't know me, so you have no idea what kind of crazy things I have or have not done for God.
> 
> But if God told me to punch someone in the face, I would wonder if I had actually heard God. That's what I would do.




Didn't god tell some dude to tie up his son and slit his belly open like a goat as a sacrifice or am i remembering the story wrong?


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## jmharris23 (Jul 4, 2008)

Yes Kurt he did tell some dude that, and you almost got me this time, but I hate to tell you that the rest of the story is that while He told him to do it, He stopped Him before he actually did it.

Maybe 'ol Todd just isn't hearing God say stop when he's flying off the top rope to put the double suplex on the sick and afflicted


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## ambush80 (Jul 4, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> Yes Kurt he did tell some dude that, and you almost got me this time, but I hate to tell you that the rest of the story is that while He told him to do it, He stopped Him before he actually did it.
> 
> Maybe 'ol Todd just isn't hearing God say stop when he's flying off the top rope to put the double suplex on the sick and afflicted



I remember god stopped him,  right as the knife was coming down.  That's a weird story.


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## ambush80 (Jul 4, 2008)

With all the smoteing god does, i wouldn't put it passed him to work that way through someone.  Its strange, to be sure.


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## ambush80 (Jul 4, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> Maybe 'ol Todd just isn't hearing God say stop when he's flying off the top rope to put the double suplex on the sick and afflicted



From the accounts,  the people were protected from injury or healed.  Is there any documentation of this guy hurting someone?


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## kw5891 (Jul 4, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> Yes Kurt he did tell some dude that, and you almost got me this time, but I hate to tell you that the rest of the story is that while He told him to do it, He stopped Him before he actually did it.
> 
> Maybe 'ol Todd just isn't hearing God say stop when he's flying off the top rope to put the double suplex on the sick and afflicted


hello sir my whole point on this is your a preacher as im but i only on secular tv. if you put one of your services on you tube  i bet you before the nights over people on here will vote on if you are a man of God. last week i said the bible tell us God is with you when you are with him over half of the people disgree with me


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## jkdodge (Jul 4, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> From the accounts,  the people were protected from injury or healed.  Is there any documentation of this guy hurting someone?



There is no documentation of Todd hurting anyone. Its kinda like the wwf he jumps from the top rope but no one really gets hurt. I truley feel this is Todds way of getting peoples attention to a situation rather than truley putting a DDT on someone. But thats just my opinion. Jmharris. I did not know you were a preacher, I come from a long line myself. My father my grandfather were both preachers. I was raised Baptist and now attend a full gospal church here in Carrollton.


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## kw5891 (Jul 4, 2008)

jkdodge said:


> There is no documentation of Todd hurting anyone. Its kinda like the wwf he jumps from the top rope but no one really gets hurt. I truley feel this is Todds way of getting peoples attention to a situation rather than truley putting a DDT on someone. But thats just my opinion. Jmharris. I did not know you were a preacher, I come from a long line myself. My father my grandfather were both preachers. I was raised Baptist and now attend a full gospal church here in Carrollton.


amen brother from baptist to holy ghost man woooooooooooo your one of those people if im out at a restaurant and i pass out there a holy ghost man in the house amen. i call it holy ghost power. one night when i was out at a restaurant this old lady pass out i jump up as people were just standing around her i lay hands on her and spoke life in to her pleaded the blood of jesus over her life. thank God i did not ask any body what does the bible say to do . with holy ghost power your all ways ready


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## jkdodge (Jul 4, 2008)

kw5891 said:


> amen brother from baptist to holy ghost man woooooooooooo your one of those people if im out at a restaurant and i pass out there a holy ghost man in the house amen. i call it holy ghost power. one night when i was out at a restaurant this old lady pass out i jump up as people were just standing around her i lay hands on her and spoke life in to her pleaded the blood of jesus over her life. thank God i did not ask any body what does the bible say to do . with holy ghost power your all ways ready



Yes I guess you could say im one of those Holy Gost filled men. But I would say there are alot of Baptist out there that would lay hands on and pray as well. I dont think because im pentacostal that im better than a Baptist. They choose there weapons and I have mine is the only difference.  We all are covered by the blood of Jesue. And all have the ability to have faith. It says if we have faith the size of a mustard seed that god will listen. Dosent matter what religion you are as long as you have excepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal savior. We all have fallen short of the glory of god and praise god I live in that Glory.....


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## kw5891 (Jul 5, 2008)

jkdodge said:


> Yes I guess you could say im one of those Holy Gost filled men. But I would say there are alot of Baptist out there that would lay hands on and pray as well. I dont think because im pentacostal that im better than a Baptist. They choose there weapons and I have mine is the only difference.  We all are covered by the blood of Jesue. And all have the ability to have faith. It says if we have faith the size of a mustard seed that god will listen. Dosent matter what religion you are as long as you have excepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal savior. We all have fallen short of the glory of god and praise god I live in that Glory.....


well put.  our lord once said born of a woman there no one greater than john the baptist. well brother be bless our purpose is here thank God when we get to heaven but this is georgia & fl.  so fight a good fight & when it look bad lean toward heaven


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## Jeffriesw (Sep 1, 2009)

*Fraud?*

Heal or heel?
Religion: While the Bible shows that God can heal people supernaturally, claims of particular faith-healers should be examined. Here’s what WORLD learned about the “Lakeland Outpouring” healings of television preacher Todd Bentley | Warren Cole Smith



Associated Press/Photo by John Raoux 
Christopher Fogle, of Cedar Rapids, Iowa, loved to fish. It was a break from his fast-paced, 25-year career with the Perkins Restaurant chain. 

But when Fogle got severe cancer, his relaxing fishing trips, which he sometimes took with his children, ended. It was a devastating blow for the active 45-year-old. But for Todd Bentley, television preacher and self-proclaimed healer, the cancer represented an opportunity to "proclaim the glory of God." 

Indeed, last year Bentley began his "Lakeland Outpouring," a months-long series of "healing services" that Bentley and his Fresh Fire ministry started April 2 and ended under a cloud of controversy Aug. 11 ("Same old scam?," June 28, 2008). In between, the meetings attracted hundreds of thousands of people to a huge tent in Lakeland, Fla. 

ARTICLE CONTINUES BELOW 

At the height of what many called a revival, WORLD asked Bentley to talk about the healings, like Fogle's, and asked for a list of people who had been healed at the services. His associates told me Bentley was out of the country and a list could not be produced. But six weeks and more than a dozen requests later, the ministry eventually sent a list of 13 names. Fogle was No. 12 on the list, along with this note: "Healed through the Outpouring and is back to fishing." 

That was on Aug. 8, 2008. There was just one problem. Two weeks earlier, on July 22, Christopher A. Fogle—according to his obituary in the Keokuk (Iowa) Daily Gate City, "left this life . . . after a courageous battle with cancer." 

A review of the list nearly one year later reveals that Fogle is not the only person "healed" who is now dead. When I called Phyllis Mills, of Trinity, N.C., on April 22, to hear the testimony of her healing, a polite family member said, "Phyllis passed away a few days ago. In fact, we're on our way to her funeral now." 

Mills, 66 at the time of her death, had lung cancer and was undergoing aggressive treatments when she was, according to the list, "healed at the revival." Mills "was taking radiation, but was sent home," according to notes on Bentley's list, with "no trace of cancer in her body." 

Another problem with Bentley's list is that some of the healings, even if legitimate, didn't happen at Bentley's services. Gaila Smith, 53, of Yerington, Nev., was diagnosed with breast cancer 10 years ago, at age 43, and had what she called a "total mastectomy" at that time. But the cancer had spread to her liver. Over the next decade she endured more rounds of chemotherapy, the latest one ending in December. She eventually attended a women's conference, where "God touched me," she said. She says she was healed at the women's conference, but when she attended Bentley's meetings in Lakeland, they asked, "If you had experienced a miraculous healing, come forward." 

Smith went forward and told her story, and she ended up on Bentley's list, with this note: "Healed of breast cancer that had spread to liver. Totally healed in Florida, all scans are now clear." 

Not only did any healing take place elsewhere, Smith now admits that the scans are not now clear. "The doctors tell me that my numbers are going up," said Smith, who told me that she, too, had a healing ministry. "But we don't buy into that. That's a fact, but it's not the truth. The truth is that I've been healed." 

Not all of the healings claimed by Bentley were from life-threatening illnesses. Leigh Ann Ansley, 43, is a married mother of two from Birmingham, Ala. The list says she was "healed of severe knee damage from an accident. Has had four knee surgeries in the past, but still had pain. Healed in the worship service and even her knee scar is disappearing. Also healed of migraines." 

When contacted, Ansley confirmed that she had attended the Lakeland Outpouring for about a week, and she confirmed that she did ask for prayer for an old skiing accident. She said that after the prayers the knee "was not as stiff" as it had been. As for the migraines: "I still have migraines," she said. 

Keith Tuplin was one of only two men on Bentley's list. Tuplin pastors a "home church" in Montego Bay, Jamaica, and said he was steadfast in his belief that God had used Bentley to heal him of flat feet. "I had pain in my feet for many years," he said. In fact, Bentley's list said the 57-year-old had suffered through "40 years of flat-footedness." Tuplin said the "pain instantly disappeared" after a "word of wisdom" at one of the Lakeland Outpouring services. Was there a physical change in his feet, or could his doctors see any change in them? "No," Tuplin answered. "I can't see any change in shape. I just feel much better. And I'm not the kind of guy who goes to a doctor much." 

The Outpouring eventually ended in scandal, with Bentley admitting to an inappropriate relationship with an employee and to alcohol abuse. 

Regarding Bentley's fall from ministry, Tuplin said, "God uses who He chooses to use. God used Todd to heal me." Nonetheless, Tuplin admits that he is concerned to see Bentley back in ministry now. "What he did is very hard to justify, restoration or not." 

Tuplin and Gaila Smith are not the only two who claim to be healers themselves. Gina Weatherby, a 48-year-old personal trainer from San Angelo, Texas, says she was healed from scoliosis, a curvature of the spine—this time at a women's conference where Bentley "was ministering" in February 2008. She said that her pain has "gone away" and that she now is involved in healing ministry. How does Weatherby feel about Bentley's fall? "As a minister myself, it makes me very humble. It's a reminder that anyone can get caught up. Especially when God is using you, it's hard not to get caught up in it and believe you're special." 

So do the stories prove that Todd Bentley is either a healer or a fake? Does it mean anything that less than a year after the conclusion of the Outpouring two people on a list of 13 "healings"—a list provided by the ministry itself—are dead, and most of the rest don't stand up to questions? 
Michael Brown says it does matter. Brown is the author of Israel's Divine Healer (Zondervan, 1995), considered one of the definitive examinations of how healing takes place in Scripture. He personally believes in supernatural healing, but he also says a healthy skepticism about most healing stories is a sign of wisdom and discernment. 

Brown said the fact that this list was presumably the best Bentley's ministry had to offer an appropriately skeptical public is a cause for concern. "If you're going to make claims of healing on a very public, even international, stage, you'd better have your documentation in place," Brown said. 

"God is sovereign," Brown said. "He can and does heal. But our experiences should not shape our theology. Instead, our theology should be the lens through which we evaluate our experiences. And our theology should be based on Scripture." 
Bentley's stage was and continues to be huge. Supporters claim hundreds of thousands of people attended the Lakeland meetings, and Bentley healed hundreds, if not thousands, of people. 

Many still stand behind Bentley. Lynn Breidenbach, who served as a spokesperson for Bentley during much of the Outpouring, refused to talk with WORLD for this story, but she now has a spokesperson of her own, Permelia LaLonde. LaLonde said, "We don't regret our time there at all. We saw many miracle signs and wonders. The Lord knew what was going to happen, but he chose Todd anyway. And there are still fires burning all over the world. How can you argue with that?" 

After Bentley stopped leading the Lakeland meetings, he announced that he and his wife Shonnah had separated. At that time, the board of Fresh Fire announced that he had entered an "inappropriate relationship" with a "female member of his staff" and that he would "refrain from all public ministry" until he had received counseling. 

In November, the Fresh Fire board said that Bentley was "not submitting" to the counseling and restoration process and that he was guilty of adultery. Bentley relocated to Ft. Mill, S.C., where according to statements he is undergoing a "restoration process" under the direction of controversial charismatic ministry leader Rick Joyner. On March 9, 2009, Rick Joyner announced that Todd had remarried—to the same "former employee" with whom he had had the inappropriate relationship. 

Bentley has refused media inquiries, and Joyner did not return phone calls for this story. But in a statement Joyner admitted that Bentley's remarriage was "wrong and premature," but he said that Bentley's restoration process would continue.


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## dawg2 (Sep 1, 2009)

Swamp Runner said:


> ...Here’s what WORLD learned about the “Lakeland Outpouring” healings of television preacher Todd Bentley | Warren Cole Smith
> 
> 
> The Outpouring eventually ended in scandal, with Bentley admitting to an inappropriate relationship with an employee and to alcohol abuse.
> ...


Well, I think that about sums it up....


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## rjcruiser (Sep 1, 2009)

Swamp Runner said:


> "God is sovereign," Brown said. "He can and does heal. But our experiences should not shape our theology. Instead, our theology should be the lens through which we evaluate our experiences. And our theology should be based on Scripture."



Wow...what a great quote.

How sad to see the lack of theology being taught in the church today.  No wonder we've got so many running around getting fleeced by wolves in sheep's clothing.


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## jmharris23 (Sep 1, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> Well, I think that about sums it up....



Yep


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## dawg2 (Sep 1, 2009)

jmharris23 said:


> Yep



I think your original critique was dead-on


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## Jeffriesw (Sep 1, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Wow...what a great quote.
> 
> How sad to see the lack of theology being taught in the church today.  No wonder we've got so many running around getting fleeced by wolves in sheep's clothing.




This is a post I never viewed before until last night about 3:00 am. (I insomniac a lot) Read just about the whole thing and bumped around the net looking for more info. 

Seems to me that If God wants to heal someone He will do it, He doesn't need someone standing on a stage kicking and punching someone to "Heal" them. I know God is soverign and can do what he wants, this just seemed a little far fetched to me.


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## Free Willie (Sep 8, 2009)

I have a sinus infection. I'm gonna go have Father Henry kick me in the head a few times. He was a soccer player in Camaroon and I bet he has a mean roundhouse kick. Maybe he can "heal" me of my sinus infection.


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## tomkiller (Sep 8, 2009)

I was invovled in the neo-prophetic movement for a few years. I attended MorningStar (Rick Joyner) and completed two years in their School of the Spirit. 

I left the movement when Rick claimed to have seen God the Father. 

The prophetic movement/latter rain/charismatic have many sincere and genuine Christians in them. These churches are also teaching much error. Best to get out. Stick with the Word of God alone.


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