# Is Jesus God??



## Ronnie T

What do you believe the Bible teaches concerning Jesus' relationship to God?

That Jesus IS God.
or
That Jesus is the exact representation of God, in His existance as God's Son.

Which and why?

And please remember this:  We're discussing our Almighty God and Our Lord and Savior so let's be civil and spiritual in the discussion.  Differences of opinions are alright.  Each must be convinced in their own heart.


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## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> What do you believe the Bible teaches concerning Jesus' relationship to God?
> 
> That Jesus IS God.
> or
> That Jesus is the exact representation of God, in His existance as God's Son.
> 
> Which and why?



I prefer to say Jesus is _Divine_.  If you say "Jesus is God", people often take it to mean that the Father and the Son are the same Person.  Anyway, here's what I believe:


We believe in one God, 
the Father, the Almighty, 
maker of heaven and earth, 
of all that is, seen and unseen.  
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, 
the only Son of God, 
eternally begotten of the Father, 
God from God, light from light, 
true God from true God, 
begotten, not made, 
of one Being with the Father; 
through him all things were made. 
For us and for our salvation 
he came down from heaven, 
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary 
and became truly human. 
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; 
he suffered death and was buried. 
On the third day he rose again 
in accordance with the Scriptures; 
he ascended into heaven 
and is seated at the right hand of the Father. 
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, 
and his kingdom will have no end.  

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, 
who proceeds from the Father, 
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, 
who has spoken through the prophets. 
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. 
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. 
We look for the resurrection of the dead, 
and the life of the world to come. Amen.


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## Foxfire

Read the Athanasian Creed.

Foxfire/Y2KZ71


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## hobbs27

JESUS IS THE WAY,THE TRUTH,THE LIGHT,THE DOOR,THE GOOD SHEPHERD,THE GREAT I AM.THE SAVIOUR,THE SON OF MAN,THE SON OF GOD, TEACHER, RABBI,LOVE,THE UNBLEMISHED LAMB,THE BRIGHT MORNING STAR,THE WORD,EMMANUEL,LORD OF LORDS, KING OF KINGS, THE ALPHA THE OMEGA THE BEGINNING THE END.

That's just off the top of my head...he's all these things, and some folks can't comprehend how he can be God.


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## gemcgrew

That Jesus is God. Not a likeness of God nor a creature of God, but God manifest in the flesh. All the Divine attributes belong to him. He is the Creator and Ruler of all things.


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## Ronnie T

So, when Jesus was on earth, no one was in heaven?
Did Jesus pray to himself?


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## 1gr8bldr

Most fall under one of a few different groups. Oneness, Unitarian and creedal trinitarian and biblical trinitarian


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## 1gr8bldr

Many of your hard core baptist actually sound more like Oneness and don't realize it. In short, You would think after listening awhile, that God's name is Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger

I think Jesus is God's only begotten son born of a true virgin. I believe that God is his real father, not the Holy Spirit. I believe that Mary is Jesus' mother and isn't divine at all. I believe that Jesus has been with God from the beginning of time. I believe Jesus ascended into Heaven in a glorified body of flesh & bones, same as we'll do. I believe Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God as we speak. I believe if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father meaning that's how close they are in their nature.  I believe the Holy Spirit is just God's spirit and not a different entity. I believe Jesus is a separate divine being  from his Father. I believe Jesus prayed to his Father in Heaven and needed his Father as we needed our earthy father. I believe Jesus' Father resurrected his Son from the tomb. I believe everything Jesus did on earth he did with the power of his Father. I believe the Father is greater than Jesus. I believe only the Father knows when Jesus will return. I believe Jesus died on a cross for my sins. I believe Jesus is the only way to the Father. I believe Jesus is the mediator between me and God.
I grew up believing in the Trinity. I changed my beliefs about five years ago. These beliefs were formed between me and God. These beliefs were formed from reading the Bible with no input from creeds, denominations, or elders. These beliefs are between God & me. They are only my beliefs formed by me reading the Bible. Your beliefs may be different. I wouldn't want you to trust your salvation on my beliefs please form your own. I think we should learn to be more tolerant of each others beliefs especially in the Christian faith. 
I would like to add that my beliefs are constantly changing as I read the Bible.


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> So, when Jesus was on earth, no one was in heaven?
> Did Jesus pray to himself?



So ..when you are praying to God can he only hear you?
 What about the millions of other prayers going up?
He spoke this whole place into existence, you dont think he could be here in the flesh and sitting on his throne at the same time?


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Many of your hard core baptist actually sound more like Oneness and don't realize it. In short, You would think after listening awhile, that God's name is Jesus.



If you want to talk to God you better call on Jesus.
The only way to the Father is through the Son.

If your prayers don't call out Jesus...they don't get to God.


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## dawg2

hobbs27 said:


> If you want to talk to God you better call on Jesus.
> The only way to the Father is through the Son.
> 
> If your prayers don't call out Jesus...they don't get to God.



I disagree.  Do you have scripture saying you can ONLY pray to Jesus?


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## Artfuldodger

dawg2 said:


> I disagree.  Do you have scripture saying you can ONLY pray to Jesus?



I disagree too. I say pray to God in Jesus' name if you want to include Jesus. Jesus is our mediator for salvation not prayer.


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## ross the deer slayer

I also disagree, I believe and know that Jesus(The Son) and God(The Father) are one God. I've heard people pray "dear God, Lord, Father, Daddy, and Jesus. All of those names mean God as far as I know, they're just different names that people call God.


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## ross the deer slayer

I think what you mean by "the only way to The Father is through The Son" is that we must believe that Jesus Christ is the One and Only Son Of God and that Christ died on the cross so that our sins may be forgiven.


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## Artfuldodger

I wonder why people don't pray directly to the Holy Spirit? Some people pray to saints and Mary.


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## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> So, when Jesus was on earth, no one was in heaven?
> Did Jesus pray to himself?





hobbs27 said:


> So ..when you are praying to God can he only hear you?
> What about the millions of other prayers going up?
> He spoke this whole place into existence, you dont think he could be here in the flesh and sitting on his throne at the same time?



You didn't answer my question.


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## hobbs27

hobbs27 said:


> If you want to talk to God you better call on Jesus.
> The only way to the Father is through the Son.
> 
> If your prayers don't call out Jesus...they don't get to God.



John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

God the Father, God the Son , God the Holy Ghost , is my God. The one and almighty God.
 The God that Christians worhip on Sunday, When they cry out in Jesus name...they are calling on God.
 The Christian prayers make it to God the Father, through God the Son..our mediator.

There is no other name....
 Muslims prayers cant get there, Hindu prayers dont get there, Jewish prayers don't get there...For they deny Christ!
 Harsh? maybe so, but it's Book.


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> If you want to talk to God you better call on Jesus.
> The only way to the Father is through the Son.
> 
> If your prayers don't call out Jesus...they don't get to God.



I don't think a person actually has to call out the name of Jesus in order for it to be in the name of Jesus.
In all of Paul's prayers did he ever pray 'in Jesus' name'?

I personally think that I always do, but I don't think I would necessarily have to say the words for it to be so.


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> You didn't answer my question.



Jesus , the man, prayed to the Father.
 Jesus walk on Earth he was 100% God and 100% man.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> I don't think a person actually has to call out the name of Jesus in order for it to be in the name of Jesus.
> In all of Paul's prayers did he ever pray 'in Jesus' name'?
> 
> I personally think that I always do, but I don't think I would necessarily have to say the words for it to be so.



That's the way I feel too. I think it is ok if you want to end a prayer in "in Jesus' name we pray" but it isn't a requirement.
Since Jesus prayed to God, I think I will too.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus , the man, prayed to the Father.
> Jesus walk on Earth he was 100% God and 100% man.


What did the 100% God part of Jesus do when the 100% man part prayed to God the Father? This concept is different from the Oneness of Jesus & God. I would like to hear Oneness believers take on who Jesus prayed to.
It appears we don't have many Apostolic members on the forum. Does their belief not allow them to partake of these discussions?


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## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> Many of your hard core baptist actually sound more like Oneness and don't realize it. In short, You would think after listening awhile, that God's name is Jesus.


Not that i'm a Baptist any more nor do I believe in the Trinity but the Oneness belief would be easier to follow for me. If you are professing that there is only one God then  dividing him into three distinct personages is less believable than one God manifesting himself in three different ways
I think you are right about people being Oneness and not realizing it.


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## Ronnie T

I think our differences are actually very minor.
And I think God is very please that we all love and respect His Son as we do.  That we realize His devine nature and that He has the very power of God.


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## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> I think Jesus is God's only begotten son born of a true virgin. I believe that God is his real father, not the Holy Spirit. I believe that Mary is Jesus' mother and isn't divine at all. I believe that Jesus has been with God from the beginning of time. I believe Jesus ascended into Heaven in a glorified body of flesh & bones, same as we'll do. I believe Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God as we speak. I believe if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father meaning that's how close they are in their nature.  I believe the Holy Spirit is just God's spirit and not a different entity. I believe Jesus is a separate divine being  from his Father. I believe Jesus prayed to his Father in Heaven and needed his Father as we needed our earthy father. I believe Jesus' Father resurrected his Son from the tomb. I believe everything Jesus did on earth he did with the power of his Father. I believe the Father is greater than Jesus. I believe only the Father knows when Jesus will return. I believe Jesus died on a cross for my sins. I believe Jesus is the only way to the Father. I believe Jesus is the mediator between me and God.
> I grew up believing in the Trinity. I changed my beliefs about five years ago. These beliefs were formed between me and God. These beliefs were formed from reading the Bible with no input from creeds, denominations, or elders. These beliefs are between God & me. They are only my beliefs formed by me reading the Bible. Your beliefs may be different. I wouldn't want you to trust your salvation on my beliefs please form your own. I think we should learn to be more tolerant of each others beliefs especially in the Christian faith.
> I would like to add that my beliefs are constantly changing as I read the Bible.


Hello Artfuldodger, Most times when I air out my beliefs, it is actually me putting my beliefs under the microscope. Opposing views make me think. Your views remind me of Arian with the exception of Arius believed that Jesus had a beginning


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> If you want to talk to God you better call on Jesus.
> The only way to the Father is through the Son.
> 
> If your prayers don't call out Jesus...they don't get to God.


In Jesus name is a common prayer ending. Many use it many different ways. But you can't pray to Jesus in Jesus name.I pray to the Father


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## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> Not that i'm a Baptist any more nor do I believe in the Trinity but the Oneness belief would be easier to follow for me. If you are professing that there is only one God then  dividing him into three distinct personages is less believable than one God manifesting himself in three different ways
> I think you are right about people being Oneness and not realizing it.


Many are Unitarian upon first believing and then doctrinized into the trinity.


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## hobbs27

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.


Ummm.. How do you folks handle this scripture? Is God and the Holy Ghost one in the same, yet Jesus is seperate?


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> In Jesus name is a common prayer ending. Many use it many different ways. But you can't pray to Jesus in Jesus name.I pray to the Father



I did a poor job explaining that. 
It's not so much that you say the name, it's who you pray to, and the God or gods that you worship.

It's going to offend alot of people here if I continue with that thought in detail so I'd rather just drop it and work at this thing from a different angle, or you can PM me and I'll explain my thought to you a little better.


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## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> It's not so much that you say the name, it's who you pray to, and the God or gods that you worship.



I agree. I would add, what is one's condition? Regenerate or unregenerate?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> What did the 100% God part of Jesus do when the 100% man part prayed to God the Father? This concept is different from the Oneness of Jesus & God. I would like to hear Oneness believers take on who Jesus prayed to.
> It appears we don't have many Apostolic members on the forum. Does their belief not allow them to partake of these discussions?



The prayer was a great example to us, The flesh was in agony, and through prayer that outer man, that flesh, that carnal man, was able to strengthen and accept the cup which he had to bear.The inner God knew the outer man had to endure it, Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.God endured it in the flesh for us...that we could not belittle it or say, "But he's God, it probably didn't even hurt".He came in the flesh, he hungered, he sweat,he bled, and he prayed for us.
 I've said this before, but it's so true. I've been at the bedside of saints that knew their time was near, they faced death brave, knowing that glory was just a few breaths away. I've also been at the bedside of those that did not know God, they agonized, angered,and feared, before they left here. I pray they got to know him and accept him in those moments, but even if they did, what a misreable life they must have lived here, not knowing a spiritual Father.


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## thedeacon

Ronnie T said:


> I don't think a person actually has to call out the name of Jesus in order for it to be in the name of Jesus.
> In all of Paul's prayers did he ever pray 'in Jesus' name'?
> 
> I personally think that I always do, but I don't think I would necessarily have to say the words for it to be so.




Thats the problem, we have to many people crying out
to God with their mouth and not with their heart.

God hears our prayers, they don't have to be long,
they do have to sound purty and laced with big
words. A nickel word from the heart means more
to God than a quarter word from the mouth.


NOTE: There is only one God, the Father

There is only one Son of God, Jesus

There is only one Spirit, The Holy Spirit.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The three are one God and only one God.

Sometime I would like to try to explain to
some people what faith is. 

Without faith things like this is hard to 
understand.

Without the Holy Spirit impossible to
understand.

Without God not much of a desire to
understand.

Without Christ you usually don't try
to understand.


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## 1gr8bldr

Jesus is God's firstborn son. Jesus is the Son of the living God. Jesus is not YHWH


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Jesus is God's firstborn son. Jesus is the Son of the living God. Jesus is not YHWH



YHWH, being the second name God gave us to call him. A name that meaning is lost in because of the old hebrew text is was derived of.
 The first name God gave us to call him is I AM.

Yes Jesus is begotten of God..He is also begotten of the Holy Ghost, which is evident in the scripture below. 

Jesus is God , The Father is God, The Holy Ghost is God!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> YHWH, being the second name God gave us to call him. A name that meaning is lost in because of the old hebrew text is was derived of.
> The first name God gave us to call him is I AM.
> 
> Yes Jesus is begotten of God..He is also begotten of the Holy Ghost, which is evident in the scripture below.
> 
> Jesus is God , The Father is God, The Holy Ghost is God!
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
> 
> 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
> 
> 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.


Hello Hobbs, You don't see the confussion in this? Of the three seperate beings of the trin Godhead, how is it that the Holy Spirit conceived in the womb of Mary yet he is not the Father?


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Hobbs, You don't see the confussion in this? Of the three seperate beings of the trin Godhead, how is it that the Holy Spirit conceived in the womb of Mary yet he is not the Father?



No, it's normal for when The Father speaks, The Holy Ghost acts.
 The Father "which art in heaven" 
 The Son "which walked among us in the flesh"
 The Holy Ghost "which dwells within the children of God" 
Are God.


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## 1gr8bldr

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Hobbs, You don't see the confussion in this? Of the three seperate beings of the trin Godhead, how is it that the Holy Spirit conceived in the womb of Mary yet he is not the Father?





hobbs27 said:


> No, it's normal for when The Father speaks, The Holy Ghost acts.
> The Father "which art in heaven"
> The Son "which walked among us in the flesh"
> The Holy Ghost "which dwells within the children of God"
> Are God.


You must be missing the point? This would make "God the Father" [but not father of Jesus], "God the Son"[son of the Holy Spirit], "God the Holy Spirit" [father of Jesus]


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> You must be missing the point? This would make "God the Father" [but not father of Jesus], "God the Son"[son of the Holy Spirit], "God the Holy Spirit" [father of Jesus]



So, the Holy Ghost and The Father are one,yet Jesus is not part of the Godhead?


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## 1gr8bldr

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Hobbs, You don't see the confussion in this? Of the three seperate beings of the trin Godhead, how is it that the Holy Spirit conceived in the womb of Mary yet he is not the Father?





hobbs27 said:


> No, it's normal for when The Father speaks, The Holy Ghost acts.
> The Father "which art in heaven"
> The Son "which walked among us in the flesh"
> The Holy Ghost "which dwells within the children of God"
> Are God.





1gr8bldr said:


> You must be missing the point? This would make "God the Father" [but not father of Jesus], "God the Son"[son of the Holy Spirit], "God the Holy Spirit" [father of Jesus]





hobbs27 said:


> So, the Holy Ghost and The Father are one,yet Jesus is not part of the Godhead?


Your still missing the point. How is the father called Father and yet it was the Holy Spirit who Fathered Jesus.


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Your still missing the point. How is the father called Father and yet it was the Holy Spirit who Fathered Jesus.



The Father is our Father.."Which art in heaven"
Jesus is the "Son of God" , The Holy Ghost is God
Jesus is God
The Father is God
 There is one God, three functions.


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## hobbs27

The OP of this thread supplied a link to a church web-site on another thread. I read the link and found many things interesting, I saved this little part of it, to help folks understand the Trinity. Enjoy.

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/TrinityGodIsThreeInOne.html


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## Artfuldodger

This is to help people understand Oneness:
 In summary, modalistic monarchianism can be defined as the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are manifestations of the one God with no distinctions of person [sic] being possible. Furthermore, the one God is expressed fully in the person of Jesus Christ.9 Hence, Oneness advocates categorically reject the idea of God revealing Himself in three distinct Persons. In their mind, the doctrine of the Trinity is a false teaching that deceives the masses. 
http://christiandefense.com/one_introduction.htm#one


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## Artfuldodger

This is to help people understand Unitarianism:
Unitarians adhere to strict monotheism, and maintain that Jesus was a great man and a prophet of God, perhaps even a supernatural being, but not God himself.[24] They believe Jesus did not claim to be God, and that his teachings did not suggest the existence of a triune God. Unitarians believe in the moral authority, but not necessarily the divinity of Jesus. Their theology is thus opposed to the trinitarian theology of other Christian denominations.

Unitarian Christology can be divided according to whether Jesus is believed to have had a pre-human existence. Both forms maintain that God is one being and one "person"—the one Jesus called "Father"—and that Jesus is the (or a) Son of God, but generally not God himself.[25]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism


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## Artfuldodger

This is to help people understand Tritheism:
Tritheism is the belief that there are three distinct, powerful gods, who form a triad. Generally three gods are envisaged as having separate powers and separate supreme beings or spheres of influence but working together. In this respect tritheism differs from dualism, which typically envisages two opposed Divine powers in conflict with one another.

Most Christian churches do not believe in or teach tritheism, although some nontrinitarian denominations are sometimes characterized as such. The term is often used as an accusation against others, in accusing a group of holding an alternate view of the Christian doctrine of Trinity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritheism


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## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> Many are Unitarian upon first believing and then doctrinized into the trinity.


That was me as a young child. I never could totally grasp the Trinity concept. It has troubled me for years until I finally just quit believing in the Trinity. It's easier for me if God is the only God, Jesus' Father and that Jesus is his only Son.


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> The Father is our Father.."Which art in heaven"
> Jesus is the "Son of God" , The Holy Ghost is God
> Jesus is God
> The Father is God
> There is one God, three functions.


This idea that they are all each other still does not work. Now Jesus is not really a son since he is Father also? It is a total train wreck


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> This idea that they are all each other still does not work. Now Jesus is not really a son since he is Father also? It is a total train wreck



You sound just like Nicodemus, "how can a man be born again?"
And your distrust in the word has you equal in wisdom of the high priests .It was a total train wreck to them when Jesus said he would tear the Temple down and rebuild it in three days.
 The Bible is the living word of God, The Holy Ghost shines light on the understanding, and faith fills in the gaps.You cannot read the book as black letters on white paper, you're missing out on so much.


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> You sound just like Nicodemus, "how can a man be born again?"
> And your distrust in the word has you equal in wisdom of the high priests .It was a total train wreck to them when Jesus said he would tear the Temple down and rebuild it in three days.
> The Bible is the living word of God, The Holy Ghost shines light on the understanding, and faith fills in the gaps.You cannot read the book as black letters on white paper, you're missing out on so much.


You really seem like your evading the question. Oh well, one of us has to have the last word. Go for it, I'm gonna go play elsewhere


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> The OP of this thread supplied a link to a church web-site on another thread. I read the link and found many things interesting, I saved this little part of it, to help folks understand the Trinity. Enjoy.
> 
> http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/TrinityGodIsThreeInOne.html



For everyone, here's an excerpt from the above site.

This site makes it extremely clear and easily understood.
Saying that "Jesus is God" doesn't come close to explaining it the way a new child of God needs to understand.  I've seen the expressions of teenagers faces when confronted with the "Jesus is God" lesson.
It makes no sense at all.  Not to them; not to anyone.

This does.  It's really worth reading and studying.

"God in Three Persons

God Being Three Persons, Yet One God Is Due to His Unified Nature

 God is One, yet composed of three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three persons are referred to as God in the Scriptures because each one is God by nature or the divine essence (John 6:27; Colossians 2:8-9; Acts 5:3-4). God would not be God to exclude any one of the three persons that make up the divine nature. For example, Jesus, even while on earth, was God in the flesh or the “I AM” (John 8:24, 58). Yet, Jesus always was accompanied by both the Father and the Holy Spirit (e.g., John 10:37-38; Luke 4:1).

Equality Among All Three Persons

 Jesus, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are just as much God as the Father is! “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30). Jesus “thought it not robbery to be equal with God” (Philippians 2:6). The equality of the Father and Son is seen in the salutations of most New Testament epistles (e.g., Romans 1:7; Galatians 1:3; II John 3).Each person of the triune God is emphasized equally in prayer in II Corinthians 13:14.

Equal, Yet of Different Rank by the Divine Order

 Jesus submitted to the Father’s will and obeyed His commands (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38; 8:29; 14:31). How then could they be equal? Both are equally God, yet according to the divine order, each has a different rank or position in the hierarchy of God (See I Corinthians 11:3). Just as man and woman are equal (Galatians 3:28), so are the Father and the Son (John 10:30). The different rank a woman has does not make her any less of a Christian (or human for that matter). Neither does the different rank of Christ make Him any less Deity. The different rank that each person holds simply means that there are different roles and responsibilities that each one fulfills (e.g., Ephesians 5:22-33; Philippians 2:8). All three persons (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) represent Deity, though each person of the Godhead is distinguishable from the other. Each person of God is distinct in the sense that each one has a different role that each one fulfills (e.g., Hebrews 12:9; Ephesians 5:23; John 16:13).

The Unified Work of the Trinity

 All three persons of God are one also in the sense of functioning together as a team to accomplish the work of God. The work of Creation: “[God] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world” (Hebrews 1:2; cf. Genesis 1:2, 26-27). "The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life” (Job 33:4).


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## formula1

*Re:*

God our Father loved me enough to send His only Son Jesus to die for my sin, for the Father knew that He could not dwell with or in sinful flesh.  Jesus' death paid the price for my sin so that God could dwell within me (sinful flesh) through His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, God's deposit of eternal life in me, dwells within me and renews me daily, teaching me from the heart of Almighty God all that I need to follow Him and spread the good news of the Gospel, that is, Christ in me my Hope. Through Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I have been restored to right relationship with God. Take away even one part of God in His plan and where would you be?  Said another way, if God carries out a plan, is any part of it not God? 

Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost for completing the amazing work of grace, and thinking enough of me to give me a chance to hear it and see it! That's all I can say!


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## Artfuldodger

To what extent do the saints & prophets become divine or are their powers just part of the Holy Spirit living in them same as us?


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## Inthegarge

Many truths of scripture are hard to understand.........It does not, although, keep them from being the truth...I don't understand it all BUT that is where faith comes in....If we could figure it all out we wouldn't need God we would be god..............Great explaination Ronnie...


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## jdrawdy

John 10:30plainly states "I and my Father are one"


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## 1gr8bldr

jdrawdy said:


> John 10:30plainly states "I and my Father are one"


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## Old Winchesters

yes he is


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


>



You know. You really shouldn't do that, you're going to hurt yourself.


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## Ronnie T

My wife and I are one.

We don't share the same shoes, but God's says we've become one.


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## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> You know. You really shouldn't do that, you're going to hurt yourself.


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## Artfuldodger

John 14:28
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


Matt. 24:36
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


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## StriperAddict

Ronnie T said:


> My wife and I are one.
> 
> We don't share the same shoes, but God's says we've become one.


I like that. 
Unity. 
Not as the divine, but a picture.

My wife and I always say how thankful we are that our marriage is a mirror of the heavenly.  We are blessed beyond just the earthly forms of what marriage is.
But I still can't imagine how great is the Heavenly unity. It is beyond comparison of anything our eyes see. Which is why, I suppose, there is a great mystery in the Godhead. But in that unity there is a security and a deeper relationship, beyond what we can fully grasp. And that revelation comes to us by His Spirit, as we draw close to the One doubting Thomas called, "My Lords and my God".

I do no injustice in referring to my Redeemer in the same way.


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## Ronnie T

StriperAddict said:


> I like that.
> Unity.
> Not as the divine, but a picture.
> 
> My wife and I always say how thankful we are that our marriage is a mirror of the heavenly.  We are blessed beyond just the earthly forms of what marriage is.
> But I still can't imagine how great is the Heavenly unity. It is beyond comparison of anything our eyes see. Which is why, I suppose, there is a great mystery in the Godhead. But in that unity there is a security and a deeper relationship, beyond what we can fully grasp. And that revelation comes to us by His Spirit, as we draw close to the One doubting Thomas called, "My Lords and my God".
> 
> I do no injustice in referring to my Redeemer in the same way.



Amen.


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## gordon 2

StriperAddict said:


> I like that.
> Unity.
> Not as the divine, but a picture.
> 
> My wife and I always say how thankful we are that our marriage is a mirror of the heavenly.  We are blessed beyond just the earthly forms of what marriage is.
> But I still can't imagine how great is the Heavenly unity. It is beyond comparison of anything our eyes see. Which is why, I suppose, there is a great mystery in the Godhead. But in that unity there is a security and a deeper relationship, beyond what we can fully grasp. And that revelation comes to us by His Spirit, as we draw close to the One doubting Thomas called, "My Lords and my God".
> 
> I do no injustice in referring to my Redeemer in the same way.



Let me beg your patience. I have been raised with the words "God is a mystery, or the God head is a mystery."

Although God and the Godhead is holy, I have never understood God as a noun or a verb as human beings use them, as a mystery. Expecially in Christianity...the Godhead, God, the three persons of God has never been a mystery.

I don't say this to be smart or to stand out. I say it because I wish to be honest.

God the Father is the God of Abraham and Jacob who knows the Son and the Holy Spirit. God the Son is Jesus who knows the Father, or the God of Abraham and Jacob and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God as the Father's will and the ministry of Jesus.  The Holy Spirit is the teacher of what the Father and the Son are.

Just as being married  is a calling in which our self merges with another to become one, being a desciple is a calling by which we become one by a merging of selves.

 Both these are unions not unlike what  they were for our fathers and  as well unions of the flesh and unions of the spirits. All together they make one single union, one unity out of three life giving attractions.

Mystery?


Father--Son and Holy Spirit (Will)


Son--Father and Holy Spirit ( Will)


Holy Spirit (Will)-- Father and the Son.


Mystery? Perhaps. My relationship with my spouse a mystery? And her's to me a mystery? On a very intimate level...I don't believe it is a Mystery.


The baptism of Peter and Paul and the other apostles...a mystery? On a very intimate level...I don't believe it is Mystery.

Perhaps.... unless....


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## Lowjack

Depends Ronnie ,what the word GOD means to the person asking in this case Ronnie and where does the word GOD comes from ?

From the Hebrew or Arameic "Elohim" Meaning Powerful ones , Hebrew plural Elohim from the Singular Hebrew noun Eloi" Plural because of the many offices and Powers he holds not because of a multiciplity of persons as taught in the trinitarian Theology.

Elohim in Hebrew also Title name given to People in Power, given to Adam when  Eloi gave him senoriety(Lordship) over all creation,Also title given to Moses as the Leader Of the enslaved people of Israel, title given to King David as the messiah(Annointed one) Of Israel.
Title given to anyone who is in power over others.

It is said Yeshua was exalted above all others ,both in the heavens and on earth" , therefore he is Elohim (God) in that sense, "For there is no other name given to men in which we can be saved"So he is Elohim.

Yeshua is in the old testament as Beni elohim , Son Of God, First book of enoch where he saw the Messiah in heaven before he encarated on earth , he was then Beni elohim, the only Beni Elohim who became from the very essence of the Father, Yeshua said I came FROM the father and I'll return to the Father" He and the Father are one , so therefore as the Son of God he is God in that sense and all the others I mentioned.


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## StriperAddict

Gordon, thanks for your post.  I just have some other thoughts today:

How can God be the embodiment of love (1 John 4:8) if there isn't a purality to His person?  

Perhaps we cannot fully understand what it means to be God in 3 persons. But love neccitates its broad scale, it is a shared gift to many, and cannot be in a vaccuum or a sigle 'person/entity'.  

Then comes the creation of mankind. We came out of the very creative love of our Lord.
"Let us make man in our image..."  

The Giver and possessor of such love could not know otherwise, save the love/relationship abandonment of the cross.  Perhaps this is why God, pre-creation, could know love still, being One, yet Father, Son and Spirit.  
I've no doubt.


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## blood on the ground

StriperAddict said:


> I like that.
> Unity.
> Not as the divine, but a picture.
> 
> My wife and I always say how thankful we are that our marriage is a mirror of the heavenly.  We are blessed beyond just the earthly forms of what marriage is.
> But I still can't imagine how great is the Heavenly unity. It is beyond comparison of anything our eyes see. Which is why, I suppose, there is a great mystery in the Godhead. But in that unity there is a security and a deeper relationship, beyond what we can fully grasp. And that revelation comes to us by His Spirit, as we draw close to the One doubting Thomas called, "My Lords and my God".
> 
> I do no injustice in referring to my Redeemer in the same way.



Knocked it out of the park bro!!


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