# Dead to the OT Law? Or, let's all try and keep it!



## StriperAddict (Nov 17, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> Paul in fact said Christians can for all intents and purposes ignore the law.


From another thread that I didn't want to derail, this got me thinking about our relationship to the OT Law.

SO, I'll start with a specific question...

As a believer in Christ, are we as 'dead' to the law as we are dead to sin according to Rom 6: 1,2 ??

<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28066>





> *<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28066>1</SUP> What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? *
> *<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28067>2</SUP> Certainly not! How shall we who have died to sin live any longer in it?*




Thoughts? </SUP>


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## gtparts (Nov 17, 2011)

Just because we have been delivered from the power of sin and the penalty of sin (Paul, in Romans, says it all), does not mean that the principles and application (of conforming to behavior that pleases God) is a bad way to go. In fact, it is impossible to please God in disobedience. Salvation is not found in our doing, but in being in the right relationship with God. We needn't recognize the authority of law (the power to condemn), to understand that God's law is a revelation of His desire for our voluntary obedience.

The law is still valid in that it leads us into righteousness; it just can't provide righteousness. After salvation, adherence to the law is a refection of the transformation His grace has effected in our lives.... evidence.


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 17, 2011)

Here's my horrible, terrible and LIBERAL take on it all.

There are 613 mitzvot that Jews are to observe. From their perspective there are 7 for the goyim.

Jesus narrowed it down, for all intents and purposes, to 2.

At the time Jesus walked the Earth, the Jews were under Roman occupation. As you can imagine, the usual suspects were quick to blame "the godlessness" of the congregation, as, well, hey, preachers right now blame everything from earthquakes to the economy on the fact that many people actually TOLERATE people like gays and freethinkers.

He ate with tax collectors, praised Samaritans. He forgave adulteresses and touched the sick and the dead. He was not about phylacteries or fringes, or not rounding beards, or wearing tassels. 

Jesus, keep in mind, ate forbidden food. (An ABOMINATION, as the OT would put it. Same word as the "don't lie with a man" or the Sodom "did detestable things".). He healed on the Sabbath, which, if you read the OT, they were supposed to execute people for doing.

He was pretty explicit in his lifetime. "Listen, you pore through the laws arguing over how to tithe herbs, and you ignore the poor and needy. You know exactly how to twist the letter of the law to impoverish the widow." 

And after his lifetime they were arguing about whether Christianity is Judaism 2.0 or some new thing open to Gentiles, and whether or not converts had to become "Jewish". Paul basically said "look, fill your boots if you like, but it don't mean a thing. There's a far more difficult set of rules in store for you and they remain: DO UNTO OTHERS and LOVE GOD." Paul was pretty adamant. This is NOT Judaism 2.0.

My $0.02.


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## hummerpoo (Nov 17, 2011)

In Rm. 5 and 6 it is the man of flesh who has died and the man of spirit that lives.
Those who are in Christ “consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus (6:11).

“… sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.”(6:14)

 "What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." (7:7)

"So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." (7:12)

And that is to set up for “…so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.  For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. (8:4,5)

There is, of course, much that is skipped in the above and more that follows.  It is intended as a sparse outline to get to this:

After giving His disciples two parables of instruction (salt and light) on how they are to “glorify _their_ Father who is in heaven” (Mat. 5:13-16) Jesus says; "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill, (fulfill: to develop the potentialities of ).  Then in vss. 21-48 He gives examples of the full development of the law.  Then in 6:1-21 he give examples of conduct for those who are salt and light and are fulfilling the law.  Then in 6:22-34 He demonstrates the focus required to live in the Spirit.  Then comes practical application.

No, we are not to ignore the law; we are to fulfill the law.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 17, 2011)

There are two kinds of law (technically 3) in the OT. There is the 10 commandments, which is God's moral law and was around since creation, and from the illustration we see presented in the temple is the very foundation of God's throne and government, and there is the Mosaic law, which was divided into temple law and civil law. 

The temple law, and the temple itself, was a foretelling of the coming Messiah. The sacrifices, cleansing rituals, etc, were all imagery of the cross and were done away with at the cross because they no longer served a purpose.  The faith of the Israelites was the same faith we have--that they were fallen and sinful and in need of a savior. They just didn't know His name yet.

The 10 Commandment law was NEVER done away with.  This is the moral standard that reflects the character of God. Christ came to fulfill, or keep, this law. 

God's law demands one of two things: perfect adherence or death. We, as humans born into sinful nature (see Romans 1), have broken this law. Nothing we do, no matter how perfect we live out the rest of our lives, can undo the fact that we have broken the law at least once and are deserving of eternal death. Christ came and kept the law perfectly, and then humbly subjected Himself to the penalty of the law anyway on our behalf. Through the Holy Spirit, we are to be transformed to the mind of Christ and accept His life as a substitute for ours. In order to do this, our life as we have lived it must end.

According to the Bible, a Christian life is a transformed life. Which means because we are saved by grace, we keep the law as a result. We are to be dead to sin, and 1 John tells us that sin is the transgression of the law. We cannot do away with the law because without the law we have nothing showing us our faults and driving us to Christ. The law is a mirror that shows us our blemishes so we recognize the need for the only thing that will cleanse them, the blood of Christ. 

The Bible is very clear time and time again that obedience is part of the Christian walk. We must remember, however, that our obedience is not what saves us--we can do NOTHING to save ourselves. Our obedience is merely the only appropriate response to the grace we have received, lest we "crucify Christ afresh" as the author of Hebrews states. 

A Christian life is one of love--we should be eager to obey God's law because we love Him and He loves us, not because we are trying to earn His grace. Just like you don't bring your wife presents or do what she asks because you're trying to avoid divorce, but because you are eager to show her your love. 

A Christian is one who is dead to the world and alive in Christ--who works daily at surrendering to the Holy Spirit that the character of Christ may be reflected in their lives. Christ kept the law. If His character is in us, we will too.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 18, 2011)

Life "in the Spirit" or living by the Spirit supercedes the law because it fulfills the "spirit of the law". In other words, if we love or neighbor, we would never kill them.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 18, 2011)

Great notes here, thanks.


As a Jew, Paul once had "privelages" (blessings, etc) that he spoke of in  Philippians 3:4-8 
<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-29422></SUP> 
<SUP class=versenum>*4*</SUP> though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 
<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-29423>*5*</SUP> circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, _of_ the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 
<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-29424>*6*</SUP> concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 
<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-29425>*7*</SUP> But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 
<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-29426>*8*</SUP> Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ

In these verses, was Paul 'drastic' in his testimony that he referred to the law as "rubbish", pertaining to his relationship to Christ?
I think so!

But was he accuratly reporting his new relationship to the law? This coming from a man who said by the law he was once 'blameless'. 
I believe Paul was inspired to demonstrate, however boldy, that the law was "lost" to Him in the person of Christ witin, who kept the law perfectly.  We, as heirs of Christ, share in that same testimony by faith, not by our 'power' to keep it.

I find it comforting to note that in Christ, our union with Him brings in the keeping of the law _in the person of Christ_ witin us, and that the Spirit within literally trumps it's power of guilt and condemnation.  Agreed, before we were in the Lord, we had to see the law as that which we cannot keep in our own power, and so we heard it witness to us of the power of sin within us completely, and we needed a Saviour.

But as believers, and as Paul did, we can hurdle over the law completly as our new regenerate Man within helps us to live the life of Another, Christ.  Our pattern is Christ, who also always lived the perfect life of the Father, since the Father worked and spoke thru Him.  What this means to me is that as we grow in our union with Jesus the Lord, we will witness the byproduct of obedience not reflected in law, but in the face of Jesus, so to speak.

*Psalm 27:8*
_When You said,_ “Seek My face,”
My heart said to You, “Your face, LORD, I will seek.”

One thing I want to shut down (in case it is suspect) is the thought that we are "little Christ's".  Our Spirt and the Holy Spirt are seperate entities, and we can never have, as a believer, the thing Satan, as once a glorious cherub, sought after... the asencion of himself to trump the throne of God.  (His rise and fall ought to be an interesting new thread).

Seeking Christ to live His life thru us, in His love and power, are enough.

I heard a quote recently that is a great challenge to me:
"Having the Lord plus NOTHING else... 

means...



having everything you need!"


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## ryanh487 (Nov 18, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Life "in the Spirit" or living by the Spirit supercedes the law because it fulfills the "spirit of the law". In other words, if we love or neighbor, we would never kill them.


Correct statement, incorrect conclusion. You cannot live by the spirit of the law without also keeping the letter of the law. Living by the spirit of the law naturally results in the adherence to the letter.

And Christ never broke Sabbath according to God's law, or any other commandment for that matter. The Macabees, after Israel returned from exile in Babylon for not keeping God's law, enacted numerous man made ordinances, including dozens about Sabbath, to try and prevent another exile. This quickly devolved into legalism and by Jesus' time the Pharisees and other religious leaders were so focused on their own laws they forgot the true nature of God's-- LOVE. Jesus healed on the Sabbath, which was NOT a prohibited activity in the OT. Picking the heads of Grain on Sabbath was only against the man-made ordinances. Jesus condemned these man-made traditions as "doctrines of devils", but stated God's law could never be changed.


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 18, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> Correct statement, incorrect conclusion. You cannot live by the spirit of the law without also keeping the letter of the law. Living by the spirit of the law naturally results in the adherence to the letter.
> 
> And Christ never broke Sabbath according to God's law, or any other commandment for that matter.



Mark 2

 23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”
 25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

 27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

If you're saying you keep to the letter of the law, are you saying you keep all 613 Mitzvot?


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## ryanh487 (Nov 18, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> Mark 2
> 
> 23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”
> 25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”
> ...



No, I'm saying the 4th commandment. 

The 10 Commandments/God's law were issued by the Finger of Christ, and He came and subjected Himself to the very law He created and it's penalty for our sake. If it could be changed, I'm pretty sure He would have just saved Himself the trouble and done away with the whole "penalty of sin is death" part. This law is not a set of authoritative restrictions, but a set of loving instructions. God, as the creator, knows best. His law is how we achieve the best results in our lives. 



And Striperaddict, you seem to be confused about Satan's sin. Satan's sin was not that he desired to be perfect and holy--on the contrary, all that is in God's presence must be holy or it is destroyed by His glory, and the Bible says that Lucifer was perfect before his fall. Lucifer's sin wasn't the desire to have the character of God--it was that he wanted to be like God without doing it God's way. This is the exact message that any church who teaches the law is done away with is teaching today, and that is terrifying.

God calls us to be "a peculiar people", "unspotted of the world", and "holy as He is Holy". This is impossible on our own efforts, but we can do "all things through Christ" who strengthens us.


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 18, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> no, i'm saying the 4th commandment.



which one?


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 18, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> Correct statement, incorrect conclusion. You cannot live by the spirit of the law without also keeping the letter of the law. Living by the spirit of the law *naturally results in the adherence to the letter*.
> 
> And Christ never broke Sabbath according to God's law, or any other commandment for that matter. The Macabees, after Israel returned from exile in Babylon for not keeping God's law, enacted numerous man made ordinances, including dozens about Sabbath, to try and prevent another exile. This quickly devolved into legalism and by Jesus' time the Pharisees and other religious leaders were so focused on their own laws they forgot the true nature of God's-- LOVE. Jesus healed on the Sabbath, which was NOT a prohibited activity in the OT. Picking the heads of Grain on Sabbath was only against the man-made ordinances. Jesus condemned these man-made traditions as "doctrines of devils", but stated God's law could never be changed.



And that is my point


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## ryanh487 (Nov 18, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> which one?



God's 4th Commandment--

8 “ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. 

Exodus 20:8-11

This is the only commandment that begins with "remember", and is the authority clause of the 10 commandments--it reminds us that God is the creator and because of this He has the authority. Also note in Genesis 2 and Exodus 16, the Sabbath was already sanctified and set aside--this was NOT new or unique to the Israelites, the people merely needed to be reminded. The rest of the 10 commandments were in existence from creation as well--Cain knew it was wrong to kill Abel (or else he would have been all "Hey God check this out!"), Joseph knew it would be a "sin against God" to sleep with Potipher's wife, and even the foreign kings in Abraham's day knew it was wrong to take another man's wife as their own when they found out Sarah was his wife and not his sister. There are many, many examples throughout the first 2 books that establish the law before the people had it written in stone--the stone tablets were merely a formality in response to the people's desire for a culturally traditional written covenant with God in fear that He would destroy them.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 18, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> And that is my point



Sorry, I misunderstood


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 18, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> God's 4th Commandment--



Well, because if you look carefully, there are TWO fourth commandments.

Exodus 34

 1 The LORD said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 2 Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to me there on top of the mountain. 3 No one is to come with you or be seen anywhere on the mountain; not even the flocks and herds may graze in front of the mountain.”

The 4th of these commandments is:

 19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.

You were thinking of Exodus 20:8

 8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

That would be Saturday.
Christians have not observed the Sabbath, instead keeping the first day (Sunday) holy, instead.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 18, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> And Striperaddict, you seem to be confused about Satan's sin. Satan's sin was not that he desired to be perfect and holy--on the contrary, all that is in God's presence must be holy or it is destroyed by His glory, and the Bible says that Lucifer was perfect before his fall. Lucifer's sin wasn't the desire to have the character of God--it was that he wanted to be like God without doing it God's way. This is the exact message that any church who teaches the law is done away with is teaching today, and that is terrifying.


 
Correct, sorry for the mis-communication. My saying to "trump" the throne of God was saying to be like God, it was done out of his pride.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 18, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> Well, because if you look carefully, there are TWO fourth commandments.
> 
> Exodus 34
> 
> ...



Which is unbiblical 

No where in the New Testament is there a single whisper or mention that the Sabbath was moved to Sunday. In fact, we see the opposite--Jesus went to synagogue every Sabbath, Paul did likewise. There is a pastor in California who is offering a $10,000 reward to anyone who can find a single verse moving Sabbath to Sunday. His money is safe.

If you research the topic, you will find that the only authority that moved the Sabbath to Sunday is the Catholic Church, and they did so hundreds of years after Christ. They even say they're the ones who did it right in the catechism. Now the Bible says that the law of God cannot be changed and condemns any such action. So you decide who to obey-- God or the RCC.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 18, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> You cannot live by the spirit of the law without also keeping the letter of the law. Living by the spirit of the law naturally results in the adherence to the letter.


 
So are we "of the law" then? 
Please explain then...

Rom 3
*<SUP>27</SUP>* Where _is_ boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28016>*28*</SUP> Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Rom 4
*<SUP>13</SUP>* For the promise that he would be the heir of the world _was_ not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
*<SUP>14</SUP>* For if those who are of the law _are_ heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28034>*15*</SUP> because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law _there is_ no transgression. 
<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28035>*16*</SUP> Therefore _it is_ of faith that _it might be_ according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.
---------------------------------------------

My point is that if a believer gets caught up in the "keeping (eyes on) the law', he's NOT going to "do righteousness", he's going to move back to the power of sin!  Consider...
ROM 5
*<SUP>20</SUP>* (a)Moreover the law entered that sin may abound.

Sin will come alive if we yield to the law, even if we convince ourselves we do so by the Spirit...
Rom 7 *<SUP>11</SUP>* For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed _me._


Conclusion...

Rom 7
*<SUP>4</SUP>* Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 

ROM 8
 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28114>*1*</SUP> T_here_ _is_ therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28115>*2*</SUP> For _the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death._ <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28116>*3*</SUP> For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God _did_ by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28117>*4*</SUP> that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 18, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> No where in the New Testament is there a single whisper or mention that the Sabbath was moved to Sunday.



They didn't move the Sabbath to Sunday, but the early church worshipped on Sunday.

1 Corinthians 16:

_1 Now about the collection for the Lord’s people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. _

Acts 20:7:

_On the first day of the week we came together to break bread._


Compare these two scriptures with this passage from Justin Martyr (2nd century):


_CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS. 

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration._ 


... and this passage from _The Didache_ (late 1st/early 2nd century):


_Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day. But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations." _


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## ryanh487 (Nov 18, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> They didn't move the Sabbath to Sunday, but the early church worshipped on Sunday.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 16:
> 
> ...



Neither one of those scriptures deal with worship or keeping Sunday holy, and definitely do not move the sanctity of the Sabbath.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 18, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> Neither one of those scriptures deal with worship or keeping Sunday holy,



The early church clearly disagreed with you.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 18, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> The early church clearly disagreed with you.



that passage is also a pagan passage. it refers to saturday as  saturns day and sunday as the day of the sun. both of these were pagan references and had no significance to the Jews or Christians. the paganization of the church is something that the catholic church rapidly fell to, and does not dictate a new standard for Christ followers.

and regardless of their misconceptions and good intentions, there is a distinct command of God to keep Saturday Sabbath and not one commandment changing it.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 18, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> it refers to saturday as  saturns day and sunday as the day of the sun.



That doesn't make it pagan.  If you want to know what Justin thought of pagan religion, check out this chapter from the same work (his _Apology_):

_CHAPTER XXV -- FALSE GODS ABANDONED BY CHRISTIANS. 

And, secondly, because we--who, out of every race of men, used to worship Bacchus the son of Semele, and Apollo the son of Latona (who in their loves with men did such things as it is shameful even to mention), and Proserpine and Venus (who were maddened with love of Adonis, and whose mysteries also you celebrate), or AEsculapius, or some one or other of those who are called gods--have now, through Jesus Christ, learned to despise these, though we be threatened with death for it, and have dedicated ourselves to the unbegotten and impossible God; of whom we are persuaded that never was he goaded by lust of Antiope, or such other women, or of Ganymede, nor was rescued by that hundred-handed giant whose aid was obtained through Thetis, nor was anxious on this account that her son Achilles should destroy many of the Greeks because of his concubine Briseis. Those who believe these things we pity, and those who invented them we know to be devils. _




ryanh487 said:


> ... and regardless of their misconceptions and good intentions, there is a distinct command of God to keep Saturday Sabbath and not one commandment changing it.



Step back a minute and think about this:  Justin Martyr is so named because he was killed for his faith, something that most Christians today can't begin to fathom.  Isn't it possible that he and other Christians who knew the apostles and disciples of the apostles might have a better understanding of passages like Acts 20:7?

Without people like Justin Martyr, you would not have the Bible with which you judge "their misconceptions and good intentions".

Also, the _Didache_ passage does not mention Saturn or the day of the Sun, and it was written even earlier.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 18, 2011)

It is also possible that they were fallible human beings with good intentions. There were many churches, many of whom had bad theology--Paul warned of them. There is nothing in scripture to support Sunday Sabbath regardless of what some members of the early church did.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 18, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> It is also possible that they were fallible human beings with good intentions.



As are we all.  We need to be careful when criticizing people who were very close to the apostles and their disciples.  We are 2,000 years removed.  Just because the early church operated differently than how we think it should, it does not automatically mean they're wrong.  IMO, it's more likely that we are wrong.   




ryanh487 said:


> There were many churches, many of whom had bad theology--Paul warned of them.



Bad theology abounds today, also.




ryanh487 said:


> There is nothing in scripture to support Sunday Sabbath regardless of what some members of the early church did.



There are at least two verses (the ones I posted before.)  The early church didn't just make it up.  If the apostles had taught that we should keep the Sabbath and worship on Saturday, and somebody later decided to change it to Sunday, there would have been an uproar, and it would have been well-documented.  Read through the ante-Nicene writings sometime, and note how much is written "against heresies".  That's not a doctrine that somebody could have "slipped in" unnoticed.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 18, 2011)

Unless it was during a time period when most people didn't have access to anything that told them otherwise, and the "christian authority" at the time told them it's how it was.


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 18, 2011)

Intriguing stuff, centerpin. Good posts.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 18, 2011)

ryanh487 said:


> Unless it was during a time period when most people didn't have access to anything that told them otherwise ...



They always had access to something that told them otherwise:  the church.  Paul describes it in 1 Timothy 3 as the "pillar and ground of the truth".  In addition, Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide the church into all truth.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 18, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> Intriguing stuff, centerpin. Good posts.



Merci beaucoup.  

Now that I've exhausted my French, I'll stop.


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 18, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Merci beaucoup.
> 
> Now that I've exhausted my French, I'll stop.



De rien, mais....

Ah, tant pis que c'est tous que vous comprenez.

Etant donné que c'est ma langue maternelle, on pourrait causer de plus just entre nous deux, non?

Je peux t'enseigner et le français et le joual, si jamais vous avez envie.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 18, 2011)

I can't top that.


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 18, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I can't top that.



That wasn't fair of me.



> De rien, mais....
> 
> Ah, tant pis que c'est tous que vous comprenez.
> 
> ...



TRANSLATION:

Don't mention it, but...

Ah, too bad that that's all that you understand.
Given it's my mother tongue, we could have just spoken between the two of us, no?

I can teach you French and (Canadian French) if you ever want.


Those astute that note the m-word must realise that though literally translated it would be an expletive in English, it IS NOT an expletive in the original.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 18, 2011)

אני לא בטוח עד כמה נושא זה צריך דיון על השבת.


Hebrew translation:
I'm not sure how this thread got to a debate over the sabbath.

:swords:


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 18, 2011)

השבת - that's the "Sabbath" part of that sentence, right?


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## gordon 2 (Nov 19, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> That wasn't fair of me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is(an expletive) in acadian french. In the past, on the political forum at least, language use other than english has been ill recieved with what I am told were serious consequenses for the writer and the objector (s). I think spanish was the offending language then. But using french here at the start of the second Iraqi war, would have been a capital offense. Now there might be a leaniancy on the spiritual forum, but fair warning. Language, religion and politics make for strange bedfellows, especially in beds designed for one body only and all others as petential enemies.


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 19, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> It is(an expletive) in acadian french.



You learn something new every day.

Post edited.

For the record, should anyone here speak Cadien, I'd be interested in learning it.


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## gtparts (Nov 19, 2011)

I just have to ask, how long are certain members of this assemblage going to ignore the teachings of Christ?

Mark 2:26-28 (KJV)

 26How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

 27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

 28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Or this:

John 5:9 (KJV)

And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

Or this: (i really like the Msg version)

John 7:21-24 (The Message)

    Jesus said, "I did one miraculous thing a few months ago, and you're still standing around getting all upset, wondering what I'm up to. Moses prescribed circumcision—originally it came not from Moses but from his ancestors—and so you circumcise a man, dealing with one part of his body, even if it's the Sabbath. You do this in order to preserve one item in the Law of Moses. So why are you upset with me because I made a man's whole body well on the Sabbath? Don't be nitpickers; use your head—and heart!—to discern what is right, to test what is authentically right."

Perhaps some would "see" themselves in this:

John 9(CEV)

 1As Jesus walked along, he saw a man who had been blind since birth. 2Jesus' disciples asked, "Teacher, why was this man born blind? Was it because he or his parents sinned?"

    3"No, it wasn't!" Jesus answered. "But because of his blindness, you will see God work a miracle for him. 4As long as it is day, we must do what the one who sent me wants me to do. When night comes, no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light for the world."

    6After Jesus said this, he spit on the ground. He made some mud and smeared it on the man's eyes. 7Then he said, "Go and wash off the mud in Siloam Pool." The man went and washed in Siloam, which means "One Who Is Sent." When he had washed off the mud, he could see.

    8The man's neighbors and the people who had seen him begging wondered if he really could be the same man. 9Some of them said he was the same beggar, while others said he only looked like him. But he told them, "I am that man."

    10"Then how can you see?" they asked.

    11He answered, "Someone named Jesus made some mud and smeared it on my eyes. He told me to go and wash it off in Siloam Pool. When I did, I could see."

    12"Where is he now?" they asked.

   "I don't know," he answered.

 13-14The day when Jesus made the mud and healed the man was a Sabbath. So the people took the man to the Pharisees. 15They asked him how he was able to see, and he answered, "Jesus made some mud and smeared it on my eyes. Then after I washed it off, I could see."

    16Some of the Pharisees said, "This man Jesus doesn't come from God. If he did, he would not break the law of the Sabbath."

   Others asked, "How could someone who is a sinner work such a miracle?" Since the Pharisees could not agree among themselves, 17they asked the man, "What do you say about this one who healed your eyes?"

   "He is a prophet!" the man told them.

    18But the Jewish leaders would not believe that the man had once been blind. They sent for his parents 19and asked them, "Is this the son that you said was born blind? How can he now see?"

    20The man's parents answered, "We are certain that he is our son, and we know that he was born blind. 21But we don't know how he got his sight or who gave it to him. Ask him! He is old enough to speak for himself."

    22-23The man's parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. The leaders had already agreed that no one was to have anything to do with anyone who said Jesus was the Messiah.

    24The leaders called the man back and said, "Swear by God to tell the truth! We know that Jesus is a sinner."

    25The man replied, "I don't know if he is a sinner or not. All I know is that I used to be blind, but now I can see!"

    26"What did he do to you?" the Jewish leaders asked. "How did he heal your eyes?"

    27The man answered, "I have already told you once, and you refused to listen. Why do you want me to tell you again? Do you also want to become his disciples?"

    28The leaders insulted the man and said, "You are his follower! We are followers of Moses. 29We are sure that God spoke to Moses, but we don't even know where Jesus comes from."

    30"How strange!" the man replied. "He healed my eyes, and yet you don't know where he comes from. 31We know that God listens only to people who love and obey him. God doesn't listen to sinners. 32And this is the first time in history that anyone has ever given sight to someone born blind. 33Jesus could not do anything unless he came from God."

    34The leaders told the man, "You have been a sinner since the day you were born! Do you think you can teach us anything?" Then they said, "You can never come back into any of our meeting places!"

    35When Jesus heard what had happened, he went and found the man. Then Jesus asked, "Do you have faith in the Son of Man?"

    36He replied, "Sir, if you will tell me who he is, I will put my faith in him."

    37"You have already seen him," Jesus answered, "and right now he is talking with you."

    38The man said, "Lord, I put my faith in you!" Then he worshiped Jesus.

    39Jesus told him, "I came to judge the people of this world. I am here to give sight to the blind and to make blind everyone who can see."

    40When the Pharisees heard Jesus say this, they asked, "Are we blind?"

    41Jesus answered, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty. But now that you claim to see, you will keep on being guilty."  

Two thousand years later and some still choose to swallow camels whole and yet choke on gnats.


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## apoint (Nov 20, 2011)

I have not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 21, 2011)

Jesus making mud was not breaking God's Sabbath laws, but the priests. Jesus taught that it was not a sin to do good on Sabbath by healing. Performing a miracle that changed the rest of someone's life is NOT equivalent to work. 

John tells us that "sin is transgression of the law", as in God's law. If Jesus was breaking God's law, he would have been sinning--and therefore unfit as our savior.


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## thedeacon (Nov 21, 2011)

There is not one word of God's law that is dead, only fulfilled.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 21, 2011)

thedeacon said:


> There is not one word of God's law that is dead, only fulfilled.



Jesus was also baptized to "fulfill all righteousness" so fulfilled does not mean dismissed, either.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 21, 2011)

Here's a couple of scriptures that need to be included and considered together.

Romans 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift ..................................... .................. .............. .......................   31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.


Gal 3: 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

*We no longer live under a Law relationship with God.  Our faithful heart connects us to His righteous grace and mercy.
But that doesn't take away the standards and character brought into the world by the law.


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## formula1 (Nov 22, 2011)

*Re:*

This scripture has always summed it up for me:

Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 

If these fruits are operating in me (and their workings are obvious), the law becomes unnecessary as the law is fulfilled in the Walk by the Spirit.

Conversly, when these fruits are not at work in me, the law becomes my tutor or guide in order that my walk returns to the Spirit.

Yet can I do any of this without Christ working in me?


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