# need help reading fish finder lowrance x67c (pics)



## cetaws6 (Feb 6, 2010)

I bought this fish finder about a year ago and haven't been to successful with it. I have always mainly sight fished but when the weather gets cold and they go deep i would like to follow them. I have taken some pics from today that i thought might be fish but i am not sure any info would be very helpful, anyone who knows how to interpret this stuff who wants to go out for a day and teach me how to read it i'd be more than willing to supply the boat snacks drinks whatever! thanks.



























i think this might just be a tree but i thought i'd post just to see.


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## jafacman (Feb 7, 2010)

The first pic tells the most. It shows a tree with a bait ball suspended at 27 ft. Because it is round and not elongated tells me that the fish are not feeding on it. The lines at 38 ft are probably the tops of trees , fish suspended or the thermocline which is consistent in the other pics also, i lean towards the thermocline...The absence of color in the baitball suggest that the colorline needs to be adjusted higher and the definition of the tree suggest's the same with sensitivity. 

When its dailed in, you should see some colors (yellow and red) representing density in the peaks of the fish arches and in the center of the baitball. The sensitivity seems to be close because the clutter in the upper 10 ft is visible but still needs to be a tad stronger for the deeper waters. There should be a surface clutter setting and/or a noise rejection setting to help cut down on interference when you increase the strenghts of the colorline and sensitivity.

This is the link to the unit spec's and it is evident that the pics that you posted are lacking the colors that are possible.

http://www.lowrance.com/Products/Marine/Compact-Sonar-Fishfinders/X67C/


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## BoosterC (Feb 7, 2010)

I have to disagree a little with jafacman's conclusions.  At a surface temp of 43 degrees there is no thermocline.  The densest water is 39 degrees, therefore, from top to bottom is only a 4 degree change.

A couple of things that would be helpful to know,  what was your screen scroll setting, and what was you sensitivity setting?  

Remember that the depth finder measures the distance of objects from the transducer.  The signal from a transducer radiates is all directions.  Most of the usable power is what is defined as the cone of sensitivity.  For most of the Lowrance products they define their cone angle as the angle at which power drops -3dB (1/2 power)from the center line directly below the transducer.   If the sensitivity of the unit is cranked up high, echos from objects close to the surface but out to the side of the boat can be picked up.

example:A fish at 10 ft deep moving directly under the boat will appear as an arch with a yellow (strong signal) center located at 10 ft on your screen.  That same fish swimming 6 ft deep, but  8 ft out to the side of the transducer will also appear on your screen at 10 ft deep, but it will probably be just black lines (similar to what is in your pictures).   

So, all that said, if your setting is in Auto Sensititivty mode, then I believe those arches and balls of bait are actually shallower and off to the side of the boat.  If they were strong signals(lots of red and yellow) they would be directly under the boat.

The first pic probably is a tree  out to the side. In the other pics, the arches at 35-45 feet appear to be realitively inactive suspended or slowing moving schoolers.  That bait ball in the last pic (below the 'p' in the word temp) has a couple of interested lookers that came up to them.  Again, I believe they are out to the side of the boat.

Regarding scroll speed (and boat speed),  fish arches are formed only if either the fish is moving and the boat is stationary, or the boat is moving and the fish are stationary, or both are moving at different speeds.  The faster the screen scroll speed the flatter and longer the arch.  

If I am moving fast(2.5-4 mph) then I like the  fastest scroll. If I am sitting still, or drifting  with the wind, then I slow the scroll down to half speed or slightly slower.  

Hope this helps you.  The link that jafacman gave is good.  Here is the link to Lowrances sonar tutorial.  
http://www.lowrance.com/en/Support/Tips-and-Tutorials/Sonar-Tutorial/


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## Lanier Jim (Feb 14, 2010)

Got to agree with some of both replies - I live on Lanier and fish it often with color and 16-level grayscale sonars.  First - I don't see a thermocline but do see trees, shad, and some fish - though the fish look to be on the outside of the cone angle unless it's just the photos.  The 2nd to last pic with a 42.7 degree water temp - well, I wish I were there because those are fish and I would have pitched a 1 - 1 1/2oz spoon 15-20 feet around the boat.  Keep in mind that with a 20 degree cone on the x67c - it equates to around 1/3 - foot to depth ratio.  In other words - in 40' of water - it will cover around a 13.3 foot area (which is why a Vexilar flasher and Vexilar Edge3 LCG are so dang good with a 12 degree cone...plus they use a 300 crystal transducer...very sensitive and covers 1/2 the area of above)  www.vexilar.com  /  Before asking - no, I have nothing to do with Vexilar - just know the product and have used many times.  Now - Lowrance and Humminbird both offer a 12 degree cone transducer but it only comes with the dual frequency transducer system  I say all of this because the photos look like your on top of fish when most likely - they are off to the edge or just outside of the cone.  Nice pics though - Oh yeah - the above is correct in saying that being right on top of the fish with the x67c will show you a red top on fish arches.  Hope this helps - LJ


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## Big Texun (Feb 16, 2010)

I'm pretty sure that you are seeing suspended leaf-bass and pine straw-stripers. The only shot that looks like it might be fish, to me, is the next to the last one... but, even it is in the same depth range so it could well be trash or even small stickups on the bottom.

While I don't know your settings, I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that your unit isn't displaying the colors it should - they'll do that with suspended pine straw & leaves. I have the HDS 10 with LSS... even tuned perfectly, it looks pretty much the same a lot this time of year.

The last picture, unless your sensitivity settings are horribly low, or your transducer has bit the bullet, is just noise. 

PS: If you want to confirm that they are suspended leaf bass, drag a sharp hooked u-rig through 'em.


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## jimbug (Feb 16, 2010)

Awesome thread!  I just bought one of these used but hardly touched, and I'm learning a lot from the experts here.  Keep it coming guys.


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## cetaws6 (Feb 16, 2010)

First off thanks on the replies!! I need all the info i can gather i haven't had a chance since i posted this to get out and change some of the settings ex. Depth and sensitivity, it then clicked in my head that more than the bottom and top should be in color! i'm hoping changing a few setting will help me out tremendously, 

Also the transducer is mounted to the trolling motor is this bad? should i just bight the bullet and put some holes in the transom?


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## russ010 (Feb 16, 2010)

your transducer on the trolling motor is fine... I had a transom mount transducer on my front TM for a while before I broke down and bought a puck transducer... (but I did notice an immediate difference) the new Humminbird I've got is actually on the transom - that must have been the scariest thing I have ever done, drilling holes (I'm even dreading more the largers holes I'm going to have to make for my livewell pump..)


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## cetaws6 (Feb 17, 2010)

i'm right there with ya russ everyone does it but drilling a hole in something thats supposed to float...


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## Triton Mike (Feb 17, 2010)

Big Texun said:


> I'm pretty sure that you are seeing suspended leaf-bass and pine straw-stripers. The only shot that looks like it might be fish, to me, is the next to the last one... but, even it is in the same depth range so it could well be trash or even small stickups on the bottom.
> 
> While I don't know your settings, I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that your unit isn't displaying the colors it should - they'll do that with suspended pine straw & leaves. I have the HDS 10 with LSS... even tuned perfectly, it looks pretty much the same a lot this time of year.
> 
> ...



Im with Texan


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## GONoob (Feb 17, 2010)

We should have these type of threads every week, very informative.


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## gtparts (Feb 17, 2010)

One thing I noticed is that the deepest pic is just shy of 60 ft.

I'd set the bottom limit to 60 ft. If you do not plan on fishing any deeper than about 40 ft, you can adjust for that too. I'm sure that some tweaking would get you dialed in, but you (and I, for that matter) could use a trip with someone with more experience to teach how to "read" the display. The auto function is the thing that allows you to really concentrate on what you are looking at rather than expecting the finder to do all the work. There is an art to proper screen interpretation that comes with hours on the water.

Wish I had the time to devote .


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## Big Texun (Feb 17, 2010)

gtparts said:


> One thing I noticed is that the deepest pic is just shy of 60 ft.
> 
> I'd set the bottom limit to 60 ft. If you do not plan on fishing any deeper than about 40 ft, you can adjust for that too. I'm sure that some tweaking would get you dialed in, but you (and I, for that matter) could use a trip with someone with more experience to teach how to "read" the display. The auto function is the thing that allows you to really concentrate on what you are looking at rather than expecting the finder to do all the work. There is an art to proper screen interpretation that comes with hours on the water.
> 
> Wish I had the time to devote .



In the screen shots that started this thread, gtparts is right... by having the depth setting at 100' over a 60 foot bottom, you are WASTING 40% of your screen. You'll get a lot more resolution if you decrease the depth setting to 60 feet. Even 80 will help significantly.

I always run my depth settings in manual because the auto depth range thing will screw you up during the many transitions it'll take. With my HDS 10, that isn't nearly as big of a problem as it will be for ya'll with less powerful units... because the auto-depth control on your unit will often interpret a large school of bait to be the bottom, and adjust accordingly. If your unit paints the top of the school of bait as the bottom... and what you want to see is in or underneath the bait... well, you can see the problem.

Normally, I'd suggest that you never operate your unit with a depth setting deeper than 60 feet... because GENERALLY, you'll find very few, if any, catchable fish below that. Heck, most of you bass guys, I'd surmise, would have great difficulty fishing that deep anyway. This winter has been very different though... I've caught stripers at 70' and would have never found 'em had the depth setting been limited at 60. Personally, I like to see the bottom... and will do so until the depth gets ridiculous... like say, 100'. Sometimes I'll also trim out a lot of the bottom over timber, keeping the tree tops in the screen but, not viewing the "bottom half" of the trees. Can't fish there anyway.

Hope this helps!
BT


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## Big Texun (Feb 17, 2010)

Triton Mike said:


> Im with Texan



Shucks Mike, I came back here today, expecting a great debate.


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## Triton Mike (Feb 17, 2010)

Hard to argue when you are spot on .  I will try harder next time .  LOL.  Had the great debate last week on the BBC (bassboatcentral.com) all 650+ posts in ONE THREAD!!  

BTW I have fished for that pinestraw bass many a day so I'm not gonna argue that fact LOL.


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## gtparts (Feb 17, 2010)

I keep looking at the pics and the first 4 are virtually the same depth and temp over a soft bottom. That garbage @ 40' is almost certainly thermocline clutter due to water density differential (shows in pic # 5 also). Taken very close together?

 Pic #5 is, for the most part, above the TC. 

Pics 5 & 6 are almost the same shot, like 1,2,3, & 4. So for all practical purposes you have 2 shots, 1,2,3,4 (#1) and 5,6 (#2).

Pics 1,3,4, and 6 show stacked lines (roughly horizontal). Fish aren't so well organized, so you're possibly looking at limbs of standing trees.

Only pic 1 shows what is probably a bait "ball". I'm only "seeing" a  few arches (example pic #5) that might be fish in any of the shots. The others are "doubtful" in my book.

(P.S. I've never seen much interest in my book.....unwritten, unpublished, and unpurchased. LOL!)

Good fishing.

(PPS, 5 & 6 are on hard bottoms.....1 - 4 are soft bottoms.)


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## Louie B (Feb 17, 2010)

Waiver:::: "I'm just giving my opinion, I don't know it all nor claim to." 

Sonar fishing is a lot of trial and error.  I've had atleast 2 trips every week since January 1st, (all sight fishing trips) and everytime I'm out I see some things that I'm thinking may be fish, brush, shad, rock, etc, etc, etc, and may or may not be what I initially think it is.  (Doesn't take long to figure out.) Sometimes while on the TM at low speeds a small brush pile may mark like fish or bait, nothing you can do.  There is no secret setting w/ sensitivity, surface clarity, noise rejection, ping speed, depth range, thats gonna make everything make perfect sense.  When you're fishing deep water suspended fish and just deep 30+ft water period using sonar, it's a patience game.  You're not always gonna know what everything is. 

I can tell you one thing for sure, that is not thermocline.  The heaviest water is 39 degrees, the water temp pictured says 42 degrees...  It aint thermocline.  I can also say pine needles don't move up and down LOL.  

The 5th picture looks like there's a party going on off the break of the contour and I'd love to have my dropshot in that.  I was in a school that looks like that yesterday, my client and I had a pretty good time LOL.  Lots of schools following the contour lines between 35-60ft.  

One other tip cetaws6, don't let all the technical talk scare you away from the sight fishing, it's near as complicated as everyone wants to make it.  Fish what you think are fish, fish slow, put the bait in front of them, if they don't react to your bait or you feel it's not fish, MOVE ON.  It's not your graph, it can be tweeked I promise you that. I've helped people with 15 year old graphs do it, keep fishing.

LB


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## Chris H. (Feb 17, 2010)

Louie B said:


> Waiver:::: "I'm just giving my opinion, I don't know it all nor claim to."
> 
> Sonar fishing is a lot of trial and error.  I've had atleast 2 trips every week since January 1st, (all sight fishing trips) and everytime I'm out I see some things that I'm thinking may be fish, brush, shad, rock, etc, etc, etc, and may or may not be what I initially think it is.  (Doesn't take long to figure out.) Sometimes while on the TM at low speeds a small brush pile may mark like fish or bait, nothing you can do.  There is no secret setting w/ sensitivity, surface clarity, noise rejection, ping speed, depth range, thats gonna make everything make perfect sense.  When you're fishing deep water suspended fish and just deep 30+ft water period using sonar, it's a patience game.  You're not always gonna know what everything is.
> 
> ...






I just want to know where that spot is in picture number 5 !!!! I see that and it's on !!!!        By the way, Louie B is dead on about the thermocline. He has shown me ( and several others) more than I ever knew or care to know about how to use and read a graph. LOL !!  Just thought I'd throw that out there.


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## Louie B (Feb 17, 2010)

Chris H. said:


> I just want to know where that spot is in picture number 5 !!!! I see that and it's on !!!!        By the way, Louie B is dead on about the thermocline. He has shown me ( and several others) more than I ever knew or care to know about how to use and read a graph. LOL !!  Just thought I'd throw that out there.



Chris, do you see any yellow bass, catfish, white bass, drum, skipjack, google eyes, or gar in the picture???  

Chris hammer fists the trash fish everywhere he goes.  He's unbelievable, made me a believer for sure.  He's the only person I've ever been with that can actually lay the hex on other people in the boat as well.   He's truly the master at reading the movements of trash fish from TN to GA 

Blawahahahah!!!!  You know I luv ya bud

LB


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## jimbug (Feb 17, 2010)

I would love for the moderators of this forum to make a sticky out of this thread or one more generally focused such as "Help me read these fishfinder readings".    There are some real experts on here that could really help me and others interpret their electronics.

I have just recently upgraded my Humminbird Wide 100 (Do I here laughter?) for this same Lowrance x67c.  I found it on another forum for a heck of a good price. It's amazing how many suspended smallmouth on Dale Hollow that I marked with the HB unit while FnF fishing that I ended up catching, and I'm excited about the possibility of Nintendo fishing with this new unit as LouieB called it.


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## Chris H. (Feb 17, 2010)

Louie B said:


> Chris, do you see any yellow bass, catfish, white bass, drum, skipjack, google eyes, or gar in the picture???
> 
> Chris hammer fists the trash fish everywhere he goes.  He's unbelievable, made me a believer for sure.  He's the only person I've ever been with that can actually lay the hex on other people in the boat as well.   He's truly the master at reading the movements of trash fish from TN to GA
> 
> ...



I don't need no stinkin graph for my trash fish !! They follow me wherever I go.


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## Bhooper (Feb 17, 2010)

I'll have to say that is guaranteed NOT the thermocline!!!!I'm not an expert but usually a thermocline is more defined,like a straighter line and usually see that in late summer. Just my 2 cents


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## cetaws6 (Feb 17, 2010)

the pictures were taken close together, next time i go out and adjust the settings i'll snap some more pics and we can all see what a couple adjustments will do! wish i didnt have to work mon-fri from sun up to sun down  after reading all this stuff i just want to hit the water.

LOUIE B don't worry i fish anything that looks like fish you only learn from your mistakes


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## gtparts (Feb 17, 2010)

If the sensitivity on your sonar is set to pick up the top and bottom of the thermocline, you will see straight or nearly straight lines indicating the upper and lower boundaries. However, if set at a lower sensitivity sometimes the only indication is debris that appears "suspended". This happens when the debris has a density very close to 1. With the recent rains and "dirty" water conditions, there is a significant amount of this debris in suspension. Some will "hesitate" as it falls out of suspension at the thermocline.

Here is a quote lifted from the link posted below.

" Many times the top and bottom of the thermocline is visible. Certain debree landing in the water may have a density of close to 1. Some of it sinks to the top or bottom boundaries of the of the thermocline where the colder water has a greater density than the object. So the object will float at that level. After a heavy storm Minnewaska may have particles added to the lake from stream runoff. Much of it does not penetrate the thermocline so the lake is clearer when the diver is in the denser water below the thermocline."

You might want to check the complete article.  It is quite interesting. 

http://www.deep-six.com/page81.htm

And, if I am wrong, I'll take it like a man.


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## Louie B (Feb 17, 2010)

All this talk about Sonar I figured I'd show one of the biggest schools I found in 2009.  I wish I knew how many fish were in this school, we'd literally see 10-20 spots following every other fish we boated LOL.  It was crazy. My clients and I caught a ton out of this school for almost an hour following them for more than 100yds through a creek before they got over 100ft of water and slowly disappeared.

This is Bill and son Jack Robinson.  Jack caught his largest spot ever @ a little over 3lbs.  

LB


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## jmwall79 (Feb 17, 2010)

check out this school of largemouth on sinclair last year. look at the the eyes on the fish that is what happens when you snatch one up from that depth. ps venting doesent help when their eyes are popping out!!!!!


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## Triton Mike (Feb 17, 2010)

Here is a couple of school I was on within the past few months.  Constant action for over an hour on several of them.  These might throw you for a loop  .   These are all Humminbird shots 1197SI.  
































I'll just throw these two in for giggles.


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## jmwall79 (Feb 17, 2010)

wow, anybody want to buy my lcx27c? those are some wicked pictures......cheater..lol


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## j_seph (Feb 17, 2010)

dang it boy, if I'd seen that 2nd pic on mine there would of been some bass fishing going on in my catfish/striper boat


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## russ010 (Feb 17, 2010)

im ready to get rid of my hds just to get another humminbird...


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## Louie B (Feb 17, 2010)

jmwall79 said:


> wow, anybody want to buy my lcx27c? those are some wicked pictures......cheater..lol




I do....

LB


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## jmwall79 (Feb 17, 2010)

If I can come up with the extra money to upgrade, I may sell them, I have 2 lcx27s on my boat now. Ill see what the tax return looks like....lol. I like the hds 8's but those pics from the hummin bird are pretty clear. You probably have to have phd. to operate them though it took me 2 years to "figure out" the ones I have now...lol


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## Louie B (Feb 17, 2010)

jmwall79 said:


> If I can come up with the extra money to upgrade, I may sell them, I have 2 lcx27s on my boat now. Ill see what the tax return looks like....lol. I like the hds 8's but those pics from the hummin bird are pretty clear. You probably have to have phd. to operate them though it took me 2 years to "figure out" the ones I have now...lol




I've got a 997 H'bird on my boat as well as LCX-27 and Lowrace 102c.  The H'bird isn't hard to operate.   Since I've updated mine I like the sonar much better than I did.  BUT, I ain't ever getting rid of my 27, when you do PM me first.

LB


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## jmwall79 (Feb 17, 2010)

If I do anything with them I will let you know, first.


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## Randall (Feb 18, 2010)

*Agree with LB*



Louie B said:


> Waiver:::: "I'm just giving my opinion, I don't know it all nor claim to."
> 
> Sonar fishing is a lot of trial and error.  I've had atleast 2 trips every week since January 1st, (all sight fishing trips) and everytime I'm out I see some things that I'm thinking may be fish, brush, shad, rock, etc, etc, etc, and may or may not be what I initially think it is.  (Doesn't take long to figure out.) Sometimes while on the TM at low speeds a small brush pile may mark like fish or bait, nothing you can do.  There is no secret setting w/ sensitivity, surface clarity, noise rejection, ping speed, depth range, thats gonna make everything make perfect sense.  When you're fishing deep water suspended fish and just deep 30+ft water period using sonar, it's a patience game.  You're not always gonna know what everything is.
> 
> ...



I am with LB on this one. So many times people want me to tell them exactly what we are seeing on the graph. Many times I don't know 100%. Sometimes I don't know at all.  When it's active feeding fish like in this photo there is no doubt because it's just usually one or two casts or drops and we have a fish. Many times everybody in the boat hooks up at one time as soon as you drop the bait. What you see in this photo is a bunch of big fish busting up a ball of bait against a sharp breakline. You can't see all the break but we are right on the edge of 14 feet of water a short pitch from the boat. I know they were big because I caught two of them and Benito lost a monster LM 8lbs plus easy at the side of the boat out of this school. The rest of the time you are making an educated guess if you have spent enough time to learn from experience. Just guessing, fishing and learning from it more if you are just starting. 

Best way to learn is to go out with a guy like Louie who does this a lot and can give you results that will help your confidence level to get you started.

The other huge misconception I see most often is people thinking they HAVE to have or have been told they HAVE the best electronics made to catch fish like this. No doubt the nice ones are nicer but they are not necessary at all. I show people with the lowest price Eagle Cuda how to read the depthfinder and catch fish off the screen all the time.


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## Triton Mike (Feb 18, 2010)

jmwall79 said:


> If I can come up with the extra money to upgrade, I may sell them, I have 2 lcx27s on my boat now. Ill see what the tax return looks like....lol. I like the hds 8's but those pics from the hummin bird are pretty clear. You probably have to have phd. to operate them though it took me 2 years to "figure out" the ones I have now...lol



jmwall,  They are not hard to operate at all.  Very simple in fact.  If you need help just let me know.  The only advice I would give would be to get the most color unit you can afford.   Sonars are like Big screen TV's.  Once you get that big screen it's hard to go back but it's certainly not mandatory and there are a ton of Humminbirds below my 1197SI that give the same clear pictures that I have posted..  A comparable unit to your LCX27 screen size wise would be the new 898SI or 998SI.  

Me personally I love that Side Imaging and a huge fan.  SI is the best innovation in fish finders since the sonar.  I am a moderator on the Humminbird forum on Bassboatcentral.com and often times Humminbird uses me to test software/hardware before releasing it to the public and I am also a guide so I know my way around electronics.  So if you need help with anything feel free to ask here or over on the BBC site or you can shoot me an email or PM.  Be glad to help anyone that has questions, but would love to have you ask here so others can benefit.  I love talking about sonar/SI and DI stuff.   

I helped Russ010 with his unit and after a little PM he's very happy with his bird over his other units.  Here is some more eye candy for ya ..


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## russ010 (Feb 18, 2010)

Triton Mike said:


> I helped Russ010 with his unit and after a little PM he's very happy with his bird over his other units.



I second that... it's amazing what one or two emails can do to help clear things up! 

Many thanks Mike!!


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## gtparts (Feb 18, 2010)

Thanks Louie. Randall, and T Mike,

The key to finding fish with electronics is knowing the limitations and capabilities of your unit. Don't know for sure if the %s are right, but it has been stated by some that 95% of the water only holds 5% of the fish, while 5% of the water holds 95% of the fish..  Specific areas tend to reflect the basic validity of that claim. At its best, a fish finder can help discriminate between productive and non-productive waters. At its worst, it can frustrate and discourage those who won't do what is necessary to learn their use.

Like ID'ing counterfeit money, looking at many screens, devoid and inundated with fish (and other less piscean objects) sure helps lessen the learning curve for all of us. 

Thanks, guys!


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## Big Texun (Feb 18, 2010)

Louie B said:


> Waiver:::: "I'm just giving my opinion, I don't know it all nor claim to."



 Me too... but, like you, I've gone to bed lots of night when closing my eyes, all I can see is that graph that I've stared at all day.



Louie B said:


> Sonar fishing is a lot of trial and error.  I've had atleast 2 trips every week since January 1st, (all sight fishing trips) and everytime I'm out I see some things that I'm thinking may be fish, brush, shad, rock, etc, etc, etc, and may or may not be what I initially think it is.  (Doesn't take long to figure out.) Sometimes while on the TM at low speeds a small brush pile may mark like fish or bait, nothing you can do.  There is no secret setting w/ sensitivity, surface clarity, noise rejection, ping speed, depth range, thats gonna make everything make perfect sense.  When you're fishing deep water suspended fish and just deep 30+ft water period using sonar, it's a patience game.  You're not always gonna know what everything is.



Very true. However, the Downscan feature, if you have it, will very quickly help you identify many of the things that you see on conventional sonar a whole lot faster. Why? Stickups and trees look just like stickups and trees... meanwhile, the sonar, which is running right beside it, will make a lot of those same stickups look just like fish. If you spend a couple of weeks on the water with both LSS and conventional sonar running side by side, you'll be amazed at how many of the mysteries start making more sense.  To me, the LSS is the best teaching tool for learning to read a sonar.

BTW, I am not advocating that everyone needs LSS; they don't. But, it certainly will help you know, with certainty, which of the "picture #5's" are stop-and-fish places or move-on-and-keep-looking places.



Louie B said:


> I can tell you one thing for sure, that is not thermocline.  The heaviest water is 39 degrees, the water temp pictured says 42 degrees...  It aint thermocline.  I can also say pine needles don't move up and down LOL.



I never said it was a thermocline, I said it was suspended pine straw and leaves. Why they'll group up around a consistent depth range like that, when there isn't a thermocline, is a mystery to me... but, the fact that they do... is an established fact; I've pulled up 'em, held 'em in my hands, and looked at 'em on many occasions.

BTW, the pine needles in these shots also aren't moving up and down. You are seeing normal arching that happens as something enters and leaves your cone. As the "straw bass" first enters your cone, it is further away and marks deeper... as you move directly over it, it is closest to your transducer and marks the top of the "arch".  As you move away it tails off deeper again until it leaves the cone.... In this case, I'd surmise that our user was moving pretty slowly.

PS: If what he was seeing were moving fish, I doubt we'd have ever seen these pictures. He, by catching them, would have already known they were fish. 



Louie B said:


> The 5th picture looks like there's a party going on off the break of the contour and I'd love to have my dropshot in that.  I was in a school that looks like that yesterday, my client and I had a pretty good time LOL.  Lots of schools following the contour lines between 35-60ft.



On the 5th picture, I did and still agree that it might be fish. One look at it with downscan and I could tell you for sure. You'd be amazed at how many of those bottom hangers you see that look "just like fish" - are really little stickups that paint just like fish.  



Louie B said:


> One other tip cetaws6, don't let all the technical talk scare you away from the sight fishing, it's near as complicated as everyone wants to make it.  Fish what you think are fish, fish slow, put the bait in front of them, if they don't react to your bait or you feel it's not fish, MOVE ON.  It's not your graph, it can be tweeked I promise you that. I've helped people with 15 year old graphs do it, keep fishing.
> 
> LB



Completely agreed. Heck, that's what makes it so much fun! However, after you've spent a few weeks fishing for the pine straw that you posted above, you'll learn to not spend much time fishing there. Look for the colorful arches Like Louie showed in his picture. Those ARE fish.


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## gtparts (Feb 18, 2010)

OK...OK...OK.....I said thermocline in post #16 and gave explanation for my belief in post #24, but have yet to get a response on the matter. It explains the pinestraw / leaf phenomenon. Note that diver(s) seem to correlate the clear water beneath the debris as being the result of temp/density stratification. To say it is not an indication of thermocline in the original 6 screen shots @ approx. 40 ft. begs for some other explanation. 

Big Texun seems to concur with the debris concept but offers no explanation and Louie discards it out of hand (not thermocline).

If it is not, what is it.?

 Now, while I understand what Louie says regarding temp (39 degrees), the surface/tranducer temp reading is 42 -43 degreess. I suspect that the temp is roughly 39 @ 35-40 ft. where water is at its highest density and the temp @ 43-44 ft is colder than 39 degrees where it is starting to become less dense, supporting the debris quite nicely in that fairly narrow range slightly above and below 40 ft. Water, as noted in the article I offered in post #24, starts to expand below 39 degrees, becoming less dense. This makes sense, as ice floats. What keeps this stratified state relatively stable is the slow rate at which the thermal dynamics occur. This happens at greater depths in clear waters due to light penetration stabilizing warmer temps in the upper column(lesser turbidity) and at lesser depths in "dirtier" waters ( greater turbidity).

Inquiring minds want to know, what do you think?


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## Big Texun (Feb 18, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Inquiring minds want to know, what do you think?



GT, I'm a mechanical engineer and I'd like to know also... but, there are lots of little factors that enter into the equation - In addition to the water / temperature issues you mentioned and as an example, consider that as the debris sinks, it is exposed to greater pressure (about 1 psi for every 2 feet it falls). Unlike the water surrounding it, the debris is compressible so, at greater depths, it becomes smaller in volume, displacing less water. You'd think it'd keep right on sinking; and probably it does... just very very slowly. 

Personally, my theory is that the major debris usually enters the lake on a certain big event; A big rain, a high wind event, flooding, leaf shed in the fall, etc. 

After such a "debris-entering" event, you'll see the trash all over the surface of the lake for several days... then it starts slowly sinking. Some starts sinking a little sooner, some a little later but, it all ends up falling together in about a 10 foot "slice" of the water column.

While it is making its snail-slow trip to the bottom, whether it is temporarily held up by a thermocline or not, we see it on sonar and it looks just like pictures 1, 2, 3...

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 

If you want to learn to read sonar, hang with a whitefish guy... us striper fanatics can't do much with a plastic worm but, we live or die by our sonars pretty much - 365 days a year.


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## Randall (Feb 18, 2010)

*Camera*

Just to add at one time I had an underwater camera that helped me a lot on what I was seeing on my graph. You couldn't see very far in deep water but I have fished what I thought were schools of game fish before and dropped the camera to find, huge schools of carp, catfish, suspended fallen pine trees, plastic bags and all other kinds of crazy stuff.  I only kept the camera for a few months because it took up a lot of space and after a while I had a better feel for what was under me and knew everything wasn't a fish or one I could catch. It also amazed me at how many fish are swimming around in the water and just don't bite. I have seen brush piles with bass all around them that just wouldn't hit anything.


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## speechless33759 (Feb 18, 2010)

Curses Triton Mike, you make me want to sell my house to go get one of them units....


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## Big Texun (Feb 18, 2010)

russ010 said:


> im ready to get rid of my hds just to get another humminbird...



It's be a whole lot cheaper to just upgrade your HDS to include the structure scan package (which also includes side imaging).


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## Triton Mike (Feb 18, 2010)

*Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----*

What Texun described about the elusive pinestraw bass is spot on.  I don't know why its there but it is...  I spent a lot of time in previous years paying attention to it.  Usually if you see bass like that you will see some forum of bait nearby.  Not always but usually.  

Texun is also right about striper guys.  Us bass guys can definitely tear a page or three out of a striper guys play book and make themselves a better bass angler.  They fish for susepended fish almost 100% of the time.  Downlines, u rigs, planer boards etc etc are all suspended fish type stuff and they utilize their graphs immensely as well.  I know I've learned a thing or two from Robert Eidson over the years that has helped me catch more green fish.  

Speechless,  sorry about that bro.  They wanted to see and learn things and I just couldn't help myself.  Don't hate me lol.  

Mike


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## T LEE (Feb 18, 2010)

lot of good info but i like the screen on the x100 lowrance


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## jmwall79 (Feb 18, 2010)

Thanks triton mike I will probably pick you brain some on that stuff. I love my lowrance but want to upgrade. If my wife doesent kill me hopefully I can do so in the next couple of months. I take the 27 off my triton and put it in our salt water boat, I wish I had the pics from the screen last year when we got on a bunch of snapper. That thing was lit up!!!! Thanks again...good thread!!


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## TVsmyrnaga (Feb 18, 2010)

I just spent 30 mins reading through this information...not sure what i learned but i will porcess this info on the lake soon...thanks to all


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## Big Texun (Feb 19, 2010)

Triton Mike said:


> What Texun described about the elusive pinestraw bass is spot on.  I don't know why its there but it is...  I spent a lot of time in previous years paying attention to it.  Usually if you see bass like that you will see some forum of bait nearby.  Not always but usually.
> 
> Texun is also right about striper guys.  Us bass guys can definitely tear a page or three out of a striper guys play book and make themselves a better bass angler.  They fish for susepended fish almost 100% of the time.  Downlines, u rigs, planer boards etc etc are all suspended fish type stuff and they utilize their graphs immensely as well.  I know I've learned a thing or two from Robert Eidson over the years that has helped me catch more green fish.



Thanks for the props Mike! That said, I have to remind you that us whitefish guys prefer Lowrance over Hummingbird 100 to 1. 

I'd absolutely love to get you in my boat sometime to show me how to use the Lowrance side imaging. It hasn't been out long enough, and therefore not on my boat long enough, for me to use it when the fish are schooled well (except in very deep water). Consequently, I haven't really been able to make heads or tails out of it so far. The downscan feature is the bomb... but, I'm still very hopeful about applying the side imaging feature to whitefish.

You, in turn, might be interested in seeing what the best Lowrance has to offer looks like nowadays... I'd also let you play with MinnKota's new i-Pilot... I have a hunch you'd really like that.

Sound interesting? Heck, if you insist, we could even pursue the greenies (You'd have to promise not tell any of my friends).


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## Triton Mike (Feb 19, 2010)

*Texun*

Texun,  I'm well aware of the 100 to 1 odds.  They are gaining good market share with the bass guys tho  I'm just flat shocked the white fish guys haven't jumped on the SI bandwagon.  I've been telling Rob for 6 years now that the SI is a fish finding MACHINE!!  You run up on white fish there is no doubt in your mind what you are seeing on your graph .  You can cover so much water and much more efficiently with SI than you can with 2D.  IT's a no brainer if you ask me.  I'll take you up on a HDS trip if you take me up on a bird flight .  Just wanna show you what your missin and how far Bird has come in the last couple of years..     Who knows you just might likey  

T


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## Big Texun (Feb 20, 2010)

Mike, I am with you on the side imaging for whitefish thing... in theory, it has to be a fish finding machine for what we do. Since so few whitefish guys use it, I kinda forked out the cash for it on faith.

My problem has been that since I've had it, the fish have been running 50 feet + deep... and not schooled. Therefore, I've not been able to develop any feel or confidence for it yet. I still have high hopes.

I'd love to take a bird flight. Maybe we can just synch up our schedules so we are on the same lake on the same day... you ride in my boat with me for awhile, I ride with you for awhile.

I know you fish Toona a lot; we could do it there... or Carters would work too. You pick the day, I'll be there!


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## Robert Eidson (Feb 21, 2010)

Triton Mike said:


> Texun,  I'm well aware of the 100 to 1 odds.  They are gaining good market share with the bass guys tho  I'm just flat shocked the white fish guys haven't jumped on the SI bandwagon.  I've been telling Rob for 6 years now that the SI is a fish finding MACHINE!!  You run up on white fish there is no doubt in your mind what you are seeing on your graph .  You can cover so much water and much more efficiently with SI than you can with 2D.  IT's a no brainer if you ask me.  I'll take you up on a HDS trip if you take me up on a bird flight .  Just wanna show you what your missin and how far Bird has come in the last couple of years..     Who knows you just might likey
> 
> T




Mike, I will probably add it sometime this year. I have never seen a SI unit in action and would like to spend a day playing with one before I fork out that much cash..... This is a good topic with alot of good info. Nice job guys.......


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## cetaws6 (Feb 21, 2010)

Adjusted the settings put sensitivity around 90% and adjusted the depth level to 60ft instead of auto and also adjusted it in spots that were shallower or deeper made a big difference all though i didn't catch a single fish lol!! 

Another thing i noticed was you can set it to mark fish and depth... now it showed fish all over the bottom mainly around 40 ft, is it possible that what its saying is fish might just be trash because i would switch back and forth and not really see any arch's, also there was no color (yellow or red) in the arch should there always be color in them? i think i will have better luck when it warms up but i haven't given up for sure.

only got one pic this time i'll try to ge some more next time.
this pic is not to clear criticize away....


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## Triton Mike (Feb 22, 2010)

Robert Eidson said:


> Mike, I will probably add it sometime this year. I have never seen a SI unit in action and would like to spend a day playing with one before I fork out that much cash..... This is a good topic with alot of good info. Nice job guys.......



Rob,  Would be honored to take you out in my boat and show you the SI and DI so you can see what they are capable of.

Mike


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## fburris (Feb 22, 2010)

Gosh Dogit. Yall quit posting pics like that. Ya'll gonna make me sell something for sure so I can get something else on my boat that I can't use. LOL. Great posts though and good info.


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## Big Texun (Feb 22, 2010)

Triton Mike said:


> Rob,  Would be honored to take you out in my boat and show you the SI and DI so you can see what they are capable of.
> 
> Mike



Ditto that. Of course, if you come with me, you'll see a real sonar, not one of those lil' birdies.


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## Big Texun (Feb 22, 2010)

cetaws6 said:


> Adjusted the settings put sensitivity around 90% and adjusted the depth level to 60ft instead of auto and also adjusted it in spots that were shallower or deeper made a big difference all though i didn't catch a single fish lol!!
> 
> Another thing i noticed was you can set it to mark fish and depth... now it showed fish all over the bottom mainly around 40 ft, is it possible that what its saying is fish might just be trash because i would switch back and forth and not really see any arch's, also there was no color (yellow or red) in the arch should there always be color in them? i think i will have better luck when it warms up but i haven't given up for sure.
> 
> ...



Ceta, if you are talking about an "Automatic Fish ID" option, turn that off and promise me now that you'll never turn it back on ever again. It will lead you down many errant pathways.

Don't give up - you are still seeing suspended trash mostly.  When you get that unit over fish, you'll be able to clearly see the difference. You haven't yet... probably mostly attributable to the time of year you are doing your experimenting. It rarely gets any worse than it is right now... except perhaps in the fall during turnover. During turnover, you have suspended trash AND air bubbles rising from the bottom.

In any event, the good news is this... when you don't see fish on the sonar, that is still good data; it tells you that you need to keep looking.


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## Robert Eidson (Feb 22, 2010)

Big Texun said:


> Ditto that. Of course, if you come with me, you'll see a real sonar, not one of those lil' birdies.





Triton Mike said:


> Rob,  Would be honored to take you out in my boat and show you the SI and DI so you can see what they are capable of.
> 
> Mike




Thank you both !!!!!  I may take both of you guys up on  your offers  real soon..... If everything goes well with Tina's Mom's cancer surgery on March 4 ....


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## Triton Mike (Feb 22, 2010)

Big Texun said:


> Ditto that. Of course, if you come with me, you'll see a real sonar, not one of those lil' birdies.



Be nice now Texun .  LOL.  You just might be surprised


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## Big Texun (Feb 22, 2010)

Triton Mike said:


> Be nice now Texun .  LOL.  You just might be surprised



Actually, I'm certain that your bird is an outstanding unit! I think it is one of those Ford / Chevy things. Dunno why.


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## cetaws6 (Feb 22, 2010)

Texun thanks for your input fish id will never be on again can't wait to get some warmer water temps


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## Big Texun (Feb 23, 2010)

cetaws6 said:


> Texun thanks for your input fish id will never be on again can't wait to get some warmer water temps



Outstanding and happy hunting.

PS: You'll have to get in the very long line of us that are standing here praying for warmer water temps!


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## russ010 (Feb 23, 2010)

cetaws6 - I'm pretty sure I know what part of the lake you were in... I was reading about 60 fish or more stacked up on top of each other. I actually zoomed in on a lot of that what I was seeing, and I actually saw fish busting into what looked like schools... but I'm pretty sure it was the dead gizzard shad making their way to the bottom.

Don't feel bad man - out of the 13 boats we had - only 1 boat had a bite and it had a little 11" fish on it... but I think you were there for that one  

try zooming in when you get that on your screen again... it should show up a little better to let you see what you are looking at


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## Big Texun (Feb 23, 2010)

russ010 said:


> Don't feel bad man - out of the 13 boats we had - only 1 boat had a bite and it had a little 11" fish on it... but I think you were there for that one



I'll bet they would have really turned on if you'd have tied a pine straw rake onto a drop shot rig.


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## cetaws6 (Feb 23, 2010)

Big Texun said:


> I'll bet they would have really turned on if you'd have tied a pine straw rake onto a drop shot rig.



where do you get one of those?  

i haven't found the zoom that might help, learning a little more all the time!


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## Big Texun (Feb 24, 2010)

cetaws6 said:


> where do you get one of those?



You can just use the one that is hanging in the wall on your garage. 



cetaws6 said:


> i haven't found the zoom that might help, learning a little more all the time!



If you zoom in on pinestraw bass, they'll still be pinestraw bass. . NOTE: I very very rarely use the zoom feature. Of course, I have a 10" screen which keeps things pretty visible without zooming. If you want to learn to zoom yours, get out the manual or start punching buttons. It won't be hard to figure out.


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## cetaws6 (Feb 24, 2010)

i turned it on last night and found the 2x and 4x zoom i'll be sure to try that out next time and i'll throw that rake in the boat


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## Lake_and_stream (Feb 25, 2010)

My take on the original  pics in this post would be trees . Like someone said above if your unit is picking up objects out to the side of the boat or  " out of the main cone area" then you will not get a clear image only a partial or semi detailed image. So in alot of cases if i see something that could be fish or bait i will circle over the area just to be sure. Fishing carters and you guys that hunt stripes out the will agree, sometimes you can be 10 feet of the sweet spot and not catch fish.  So take a second and check it out.I dont know if i agree that it is pine needles only cause that would be a ton of pine needles just floating in the water colum.

 not thermocline this time of year. 

My hds structure scan is on the way now cant wait for it to arrive.


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## russ010 (Feb 25, 2010)

to be honest, I don't think that is pine needles in his most current picture... He was in the creek channel (I know, I was at the same tourney and saw him snap the pic). I came back through there and that's the same spot I saw all of the gizzard shad and the other fish sitting just stacked on top of each other. That was about a 10 yard stretch and I zig zagged all over it and I was watching the fish move up and down. When I was sitting still I was watching them come underneath me and going right by my drop shot.

Hang in there man... Acworth is a bit more shallow - so don't be surprised if you don't see any fish on your screen. I've sat on top of what seemed like a school the way I was catching them, and I finally wanted to see what was there - and I saw nothing. Dropped my worm straight down under the boat, watched it go to the bottom, jiggled it a few times and caught the fish. 

Either way, don't sweat it. Just fish what looks like a place that will catch a fish - your lure catches the fish, not the graph. And unless you are spot fishing or have side sonar, you aren't going to know if the fish are where you are throwing or not


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