# Found my first ml deer today- three days after shot



## WNewman (Oct 19, 2013)

We hunted all down the trail and neither of us saw any blood anywhere. My fil came over and was searching with me.  Saw some buzzards today nearby and my heart sunk. I found her about 50 ft on the other side of some vines from where we gave up and figured I'd missed.

One of our club members shot a buck on Saturday and barely had enough trail to follow.   Both shots were pass throughs.  Why is there so little blood from a muzzle loader bullet?  I'll keep my wolf because its fun to shoot, but I don't know that I'll hunt with it again. These woods are too thick to find them without a trail. This is the first deer I've not recovered and I've found i hate wasting deer. 

Is it that the muzzle speed is so low?  I use a hundred grains of pyrodex , if I go to the 150 grain magnum loads will that give more blood trail?


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## Apex Predator (Oct 19, 2013)

You have to use the right bullet.


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## FrontierGander (Oct 19, 2013)

bullet that holds up well and shot placement.


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## 7Mag Hunter (Oct 19, 2013)

Apex Predator said:


> You have to use the right bullet.




bullet placement is more important than bullet type.....
Shots to high usually don't leave big blood trail...
Aim for the heart and they wont go far,,


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## WNewman (Oct 19, 2013)

From the location of the hole on the backside of the deer, the placement looked to be in the kill zone. I was firing down from about 8 ft up and 60 yards away. My buddy's hit was right in the kill zone from about the same hight, 25 yds away


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## snuffy (Oct 19, 2013)

What bullet were you using?


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## arkie1 (Oct 19, 2013)

Most of the time when hit one it will knock it to the ground. Those heavy grain bullets are great on deer.


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## GA DAWG (Oct 19, 2013)

Just from my experience. They don't bleed much. High shots are worse like said earlier...It pretty much just pokes a hole threw them and I've shot them with several different bullets. Lots fall but the ones that have made that death run didn't bleed much.


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## Okie Hog (Oct 20, 2013)

> bullet placement is more important than bullet type.....
> Shots to high usually don't leave big blood trail...
> Aim for the heart and they wont go far,,



Bingo!!!  Shot placement is everything.  

This doe was shot with a .490 patched round ball from a tree stand about 35 yards away.   Bang flop.    

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll268/alsaqr/DSC01576.jpg


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## T-N-T (Oct 20, 2013)

I have always had trouble with muzzle loader bullets and blood.  Been told "thats the way it is"

I have no idea why...


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## bronco611 (Oct 21, 2013)

If you are using the power belt ballistic tip bullet, use your knife prior to loading and remover that piece of junk plastic tip from the bullet. It is too hard and does not allow the bullet to expand correctly if shot behind the shoulder or through the ribs. It will just blow straight through, If it is a shoulder shot it works a lot better. If you remove the tip or buy the hollow point it will expand and does a lot of damage when exiting the opposite side. I learned the hard way also and have lost 2 deer and a hog i n 2 years, since then problem solved. I used the hornady 44 hollow point sabots and never had a problem with them, when I switched to power belts this started happening till I realized what the problem was and removed it from the equation. The hard plastic almost makes the bullet act like a full jacketed bullet.


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## WNewman (Oct 21, 2013)

bronco611 said:


> If you are using the power belt ballistic tip bullet, use your knife prior to loading and remover that piece of junk plastic tip from the bullet. It is too hard and does not allow the bullet to expand correctly if shot behind the shoulder or through the ribs. It will just blow straight through



I was shooting a Traditions Smackdown SST. 250 gr, it does have a hard plastic tip in the hollow point as you describe the Power Belts using.  I'll have to ask David what bullet he was using for his deer.

I have some Thompson / Center 230 Grain Sure Fire Jacketed hollow points in Sabots, if I do go out with the ML again, perhaps I'll try those.  They look like they will really expand.  I was concerned about them spreading and coming apart in the deer for no exit, but now I'm not sure which is worse.


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## FrontierGander (Oct 21, 2013)

the sst brand bullets are pretty famous for leaving pencil size holes which often do not leave a blood trail. The sst/shockwave are pretty much the same bullets and both have the same issues. Without seeing where shot placement was, its pretty hard to say the bullet was to blame.


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## WNewman (Oct 21, 2013)

Yep, I should have taken a picture of her to confirm the shot, but I was so disgusted with myself for losing my first deer I just walked away.  It wasn't until I left the club I thought about figuring out what went wrong.


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## nwgahunter (Oct 24, 2013)

My experience is that most of today's bullets are geared for too much penetration and not enough expansion. They just poke right through with very little expansion so they don't expend enough energy inside the deer. The best performing bullets for expansion I've ever seen for a muzzleloader are the old school Hornady sabots with a 44mag bullet in them. I killed several deer with those and they never took another step. pinky sized entrance and 1/2 dollar sized exit.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 24, 2013)

Get rid of those bullets that have any kind of plastic on them, including plastic cups around them, and you won't have any more problems. I shoot roundballs or heavy, caliber-sized conicals like the T/C Maxi-hunter, and if a deer goes anywhere (they usually fall dead right there,) there'll be a blood trail that Stevie Wonder could follow. Heavy is good. i don't know why people think you have to shoot fancy plastic bullets in an inline muzzleloader-I have a couple friends that I've convinced to use big solid lead conicals in their inlines instead of sabots, powerbelts, and such, and they will totally agree with me now. Big heavy lead bullets are the perfect match with black powder.


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## SakoL61R (Oct 24, 2013)

x2 on what NCHillbilly said.
After 22 years of MZ hunting, I use full-bore Ultimate 1 conicals from
http://www.prbullet.com/
and they die right there


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## tv_racin_fan (Oct 25, 2013)

I don't get it...


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## godogs57 (Oct 28, 2013)

NC nailed it. I shoot conicals only. No excuses muzzleloader bullets exclusively. They hit like a wrecking ball and are exceptionally accurate! The owner has a website...check it out. 

Www.muzzleloading-bullets.com


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## icdedturkes (Oct 29, 2013)

WNewman said:


> I was shooting a Traditions Smackdown SST. 250 gr, it does have a hard plastic tip in the hollow point as you describe the Power Belts using.  I'll have to ask David what bullet he was using for his deer.





FrontierGander said:


> the sst brand bullets are pretty famous for leaving pencil size holes which often do not leave a blood trail. The sst/shockwave are pretty much the same bullets and both have the same issues. Without seeing where shot placement was, its pretty hard to say the bullet was to blame.



I would have to say the blood trails I get with a muzzeloader are as good or better than what I get with typical rifle calibers.. I fully agree shot placement is #1 but if a bullet is not performing to expectations it can leave for some miserable blood trails despite the hunter fulfilling his end of the bargain.. 

Years ago I got lured into the SST/Shockwave from Barnes due to the ease of availability.. As mentioned sometimes their is zero expansion, I recovered two deer, absolute perfect shots in which I watch them expire, with ZERO blood, this was on snow up here in the frozen north.. Upon skinning it revealed a perfect shot and a bullet sized hole throughout.. 

With that said I have two Shockwave/SST bullets laying around with complete core jacket separation that had just enough penetration to get the job done.. I have had many friends experience similar results.. 

I can say with certainty I will never stray from a Barnes bullet again. If I purchase a gun that will absolutely not shoot a variety of Barnes it will be sold.. Devastating blood trails, entrance and exit holes each and every time.. 

I know arguments about bullets ruffle feathers.. The SST/Shockwave/Smackdown is an amazing shooting bullet, its cheap and readily available but from what I witnessed its a ticking time bomb when it comes to on game performance. If you feel you want to stick with the Hornady line of bullets do to cost or availability move to the XTP, groups will most likely open up a little, but the XTP performs well on game.


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## Apex Predator (Oct 29, 2013)

FrontierGander said:


> the sst brand bullets are pretty famous for leaving pencil size holes which often do not leave a blood trail. The sst/shockwave are pretty much the same bullets and both have the same issues. Without seeing where shot placement was, its pretty hard to say the bullet was to blame.



 Never heard that one!  If they shoot well from my gun, I'd shoot full bore conicals from all my MLs.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 29, 2013)

icdedturkes said:


> I would have to say the blood trails I get with a muzzeloader are as good or better than what I get with typical rifle calibers.. I fully agree shot placement is #1 but if a bullet is not performing to expectations it can leave for some miserable blood trails despite the hunter fulfilling his end of the bargain..
> 
> Years ago I got lured into the SST/Shockwave from Barnes due to the ease of availability.. As mentioned sometimes their is zero expansion, I recovered two deer, absolute perfect shots in which I watch them expire, with ZERO blood, this was on snow up here in the frozen north.. Upon skinning it revealed a perfect shot and a bullet sized hole throughout..
> 
> ...



I like Barnes bullets for modern rifles too, and have had much the same results as you. But I shot a buck Saturday afternoon at about a hundred yards with a .300 mag and Barnes TTSX right through the boiler room. (not in NC, before the online wardens commence to commenting lol )There was actually a big chunk of lung lying where the deer was standing. I only found little bitty specks of blood here and there for about a hundred yards before it finally started bleeding good. The deer went about a hundred fifty yards before piling up. The exit hole wasn't much bigger than the entrance, it hadn't hit any bone at all, just soft tissue, and never opened up. It was good and dead though. I shot one Saturday morning with the same combo, high-shoulder shot, and it was DRT with a gaping exit wound and about five pounds of missing hamburger meat.


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## icdedturkes (Oct 29, 2013)

NCHillbilly said:


> I like Barnes bullets for modern rifles too, and have had much the same results as you. But I shot a buck Saturday afternoon at about a hundred yards with a .300 mag and Barnes TTSX right through the boiler room. (not in NC, before the online wardens commence to commenting lol )There was actually a big chunk of lung lying where the deer was standing. I only found little bitty specks of blood here and there for about a hundred yards before it finally started bleeding good. The deer went about a hundred fifty yards before piling up. The exit hole wasn't much bigger than the entrance, it hadn't hit any bone at all, just soft tissue, and never opened up. It was good and dead though. I shot one Saturday morning with the same combo, high-shoulder shot, and it was DRT with a gaping exit wound and about five pounds of missing hamburger meat.



I was speaking specifically to the TMZ, T-EZ and Expander muzzy bullets.. I only have experience in a modern rifle with the original X bullet in a PMC loading out of an 06.. My only experience with the TTSX is in the girlfriends 243 shooting the 80 g Vortx loading and could not be happier over the course of 2 seasons..


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## Lowjack (Oct 29, 2013)

I shoot the power Balls 300 Gr. I won't shoot anything smaller than that with my Tradition inline , I have shot 3 deer with it , one at 60 Yrds , one at 80 Yrds and one 123 Yrds , all left trails with lots of blood , all were shots at the shoulder and lungs and heart or artery , one went 10 yrds and one 55 yrs the otherone fell right were I shot it , but I did adopt a beagle and have been training it now fo two seasons , we haven't lost a deer yet. All Clubs should have a blood trailing dog.IMO.


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## Okie Hog (Nov 6, 2013)

Yep, there are all kinds of stories about the SST/Shockwave bullets.  Some say they fail to expand, others claim they fragment.   Never had a problem following a blood trail when using one of those bullets.  

i've killed about 20 deer and many dozens of wild hogs using the 250 grain SST/Shockwave bullet.   Never had an animal get away wounded:  Many were bang flops.   My longest shot using the 250grain SST/Shockwave was 226 yards.   

The 250 grain SST bullet has a soft plastic tip.  That bullet sometimes expands better than the 250 grain Shockwave with it's hard plastic tip.  

Yep, i've tried the very expensive Barnes  bullets.  They work no better than the SST/Shockwave.


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## Mtns2hunt (Jul 7, 2014)

Okie Hog said:


> Yep, i've tried the very expensive Barnes  bullets.  They work no better than the SST/Shockwave.



I have had the same experience using Barnes. I did not find them as accurate as the Shockwaves and they did punch through without expansion on several occasions. 

When they did hit bone such as a shoulder the damage was horrific and normally ruined both shoulders. Still I think that the Barnes is a good bullet - but for me it just does not foot the bill as does the shockwave - but each to his own.

Currently I shoot 200 grain shockwaves in front of 110 grains of BH 209 powder with a CCI primer.


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## dwinsor (Jul 8, 2014)

Years ago I shot a Maxi 430 grain bullet out of my 54 renegade.  Little hole in, little hole out.  I tried a T/C 3 piece sabot and a 240 grain Nosler JSP, little hole in, big hole out.  Even full length of deer found one under the hide in the leg.  perfect mushroom, deer didn't go far.

This year I have tried the 300 grain hp XTP, 100 grains of BH 209, with a harvester green Crush rib sabot for .44 Cal .430 dia bullet.  At 100 yards I got 1 1/2" groups, and that was the first time I shot it, have not tried varying powder, etc.  It expands from 850 to 1900 FPS I think.  Should be great on deer.  I wouldn't use the XTP Mags on deer size game, I think you would get less expansion,  you can get the XTP in many sizes, 250 grain would probably be good also.  I am going to use this bullet for 100 yards and closer.

For longer shots I have picked up some harvester scorpion PT Gold 300 grain Bullets, and will use a harvester H25045SRR (Red) Sabot.  I have not shot them yet but from all I have read, I am going to start with 110 grains of Blackhorn powder.  I have read that 200 yards would not be hard for the bullet, and would have heavy FPE when it got there.  Also they say the expansion is great close or far away.  These bullets cost about 20.00 from harvester, for 50.  So they won't break the bank.  They are suppose to be extremely accurate.  If you decide to try them don't use the H15045BR sabots, they fell thru my Accura V2 and my T/C Pro Hunter.  The red sabot is perfect in both my guns.


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## rvick (Jul 8, 2014)

Lowjack said:


> I shoot the power Balls 300 Gr. I won't shoot anything smaller than that with my Tradition inline , I have shot 3 deer with it , one at 60 Yrds , one at 80 Yrds and one 123 Yrds , all left trails with lots of blood , all were shots at the shoulder and lungs and heart or artery , one went 10 yrds and one 55 yrs the otherone fell right were I shot it , but I did adopt a beagle and have been training it now fo two seasons , we haven't lost a deer yet. All Clubs should have a blood trailing dog.IMO.


       if i lost a deer in paulding county and didnt have my dog with me,, i would call Rolando Mestre @ 404-805-2517. he has a good tracking dog there.


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