# The Bride of Christ?



## Artfuldodger (Aug 11, 2016)

What books of the Bible use this term?
Do the books using that term tell us who the bride is?

Rev 19:7 says: "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

The wife(bride) in this verse makes herself ready. The remnant and the body of Christ were elected by grace. They couldn't make them self ready.


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## welderguy (Aug 11, 2016)

The bride is the church.
Eph.5:31-32


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 11, 2016)

welderguy said:


> The bride is the church.
> Eph.5:31-32



I thought the Church was his body:

Ephesians 1:23
And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself.

 Then we have the term "children of God." Can the children of God be the bride of his Son? Can the children of Christ be his bride?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 11, 2016)

How will/did the Church make itself ready for the wedding?

His bride has made herself ready. 

Revelation 19:8
She has been given the finest of pure white linen to wear." For the fine linen represents the good deeds of God's holy people.

The bride will make herself ready by wearing what represents the saints.  God made the saints ready through election.

Revelation 19:9
Then the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!" And he added, "These are the true words of God."

There will be guest at this wedding.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 11, 2016)

How does the New Jerusalem fit in to being the bride/church?

Revelation 21:2
I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Revelation 21:9-10
Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city of Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,


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## gordon 2 (Aug 11, 2016)

Revelation 21:5  (KJ21)

5 And He that sat upon the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said unto me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

The wedding has not taken place yet... the bride, ( believers) are still getting ready...


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## welderguy (Aug 12, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Revelation 21:5  (KJ21)
> 
> 5 And He that sat upon the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said unto me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
> 
> The wedding has not taken place yet... the bride, ( believers) are still getting ready...



Yes.good post Gordo.

Art,Christ is the head and we are the body and we are become one in Him.
Its that way with you and your bride.You two have become one.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2016)

Now I've got to make myself ready for the wedding. How righteous will I need to become?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Yes.good post Gordo.
> 
> Art,Christ is the head and we are the body and we are become one in Him.
> Its that way with you and your bride.You two have become one.




But...until the marriage is consummated, the two are not one. In one sense you are looking forward as the betrothed 1st century Christians, and in another you are looking back as the married 1st Century Christians.

Just another error from ignoring the already but not yet in the first century.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Now I've got to make myself ready for the wedding. How righteous will I need to become?



Paul kept them in line and informed..ready to greet the groom at His coming.

2Corinthians 11:
2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2016)

Hobbs, any opinion on Ephesians 5:31-32? Is this just an example of our relationship with Christ and not the wedding of Christ?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, any opinion on Ephesians 5:31-32? Is this just an example of our relationship with Christ and not the wedding of Christ?



It's the relationship the elect, the remnant, the wheat, the bride, the first century Christians had with Christ... They were there for His appearing, they are special, but they had to hold the faith while being persecuted..the Israelites had to hold the faith while their kindred went a stray and denied Christ as the Messiah. They showed themselves worthy and spotless, washed in the word.

They were to be presented to Him at the Parousia as we read in previous verses.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.


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## Israel (Aug 13, 2016)

For we are members of His body. 31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church.…Eph 5

If there were to be an important distinction between the "Bride" and the church, (which is _not made_ here) and unless a man is also convinced the church is no longer in the earth (but not of it); that all called bride, church, body of Christ is now with no more of this taking place:
"And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved."
Then, I suppose, he would at least be consistent.

And, of course, he would have to be able to stand in refutation of all whose testimonies bear witness to being "born from above/regenerated" since a certain date as an untrue thing. I know of none such.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 13, 2016)

There were twelve sons of Jacob that made up Israel. Israel was God's Bride. Piece by piece the divorce decree cut off the northern tribes, until it was just Judah and her glorious city Jerusalem
 Christ came to seek out a remnant of Judah..to save the lost sheep of Israel before that mighty day of the Lord that was going to fall on Jerusalem.
 God chose twelve men to begin His new kingdom. One was found to be with blemish and was cast out. The 11 reached out to Matthias...but Christ brought in an apostate..a non believer, to seek out the Gentiles of faith.

The twelve were whole again, and of the twelve a figurative number of 12,000 each, or 144,000 were to be joined together as the bride of Christ..They were the wheat,  the first fruits, they had survived the judgement and were now joined with Christ in Holy matrimony.

Just as God consummated a Bride in the twelve tribes before, and to their offspring by bloodline...Now Christ had married His bride of the twelve, that they produce children, not by blood, but by faith...World without end, Amen!


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## welderguy (Aug 13, 2016)

Christ's bride has always been spiritual.Never physical.The one you see in the old testament(physical),is only a type and shadow of the true bride(spiritual).
This concept (mystery) is revealed in the new testament to those who THOUGHT the nation of Israel was His chosen bride.Jesus said they were wrong...and yet people still misunderstand this today.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 13, 2016)

Here is the consummation of the wedding of God and national Israel.. A marriage contract is a covenant, without a consummation there is no contract.


Ezekiel 16:8-14New King James Version (NKJV)

8 “When I passed by you again and looked upon you, indeed your time was the time of love; so I spread My wing over you and covered your nakedness. Yes, I swore an oath to you and entered into a covenant with you, and you became Mine,” says the Lord God.

9 “Then I washed you in water; yes, I thoroughly washed off your blood, and I anointed you with oil. 10 I clothed you in embroidered cloth and gave you sandals of badger skin; I clothed you with fine linen and covered you with silk. 11 I adorned you with ornaments, put bracelets on your wrists, and a chain on your neck. 12 And I put a jewel in your nose, earrings in your ears, and a beautiful crown on your head. 13 Thus you were adorned with gold and silver, and your clothing was of fine linen, silk, and embroidered cloth. You ate pastry of fine flour, honey, and oil. You were exceedingly beautiful, and succeeded to royalty. 14 Your fame went out among the nations because of your beauty, for it was perfect through My splendor which I had bestowed on you,” says the Lord God.


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## welderguy (Aug 13, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Here is the consummation of the wedding of God and national Israel.. A marriage contract is a covenant, without a consummation there is no contract.
> 
> 
> Ezekiel 16:8-14New King James Version (NKJV)
> ...



Yes.What you describe is the old testament "type" of the marriage covenant between Christ and His true bride.The bride that He washed with His blood on the cross.

The "type" is a picture of the one that is to be.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 13, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Yes.What you describe is the old testament "type" of the marriage covenant between Christ and His true bride.The bride that He washed with His blood on the cross.
> 
> The "type" is a picture of the one that is to be.



This "type" as you put it..was the establishment of the old covenant..Is the New covenant established? If so, it is consummated.


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## welderguy (Aug 13, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> This "type" as you put it..was the establishment of the old covenant..Is the New covenant established? If so, it is consummated.



We are betrothed to Christ in this present state in time.Betrothal is just as binding as marriage,in Jewish law.The marriage is a future event(to us who are bound by time)at the end of time,when Jesus will present the bride to Himself,not having spot or wrinkle(perfect).
Then there will be a marriage supper of the Lamb.I can't imagine what that will be like,but it will be GLORIOUS!!

The reason John speaks in Revelation as though these things are already done is because he was bidden to "come up hither",where there is no time.In that sense(outside of time),they ARE already accomplished.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 13, 2016)

The marriage supper feasted (Figuratively) on the dead that would not believe in Christ. Although the carnage was literal in 70ad.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 13, 2016)

Betrothed is not consummated, it's not the same, Notice God washed the bride and wiped away the blood. The marriage was consummated to make the covenant binding.

 If the New Covenant is not consummated, it is not binding, and Christ has done nothing to this point in time.


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## welderguy (Aug 13, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Here is the consummation of the wedding of God and national Israel.. A marriage contract is a covenant, without a consummation there is no contract.
> 
> 
> Ezekiel 16:8-14New King James Version (NKJV)
> ...



Where, specifically , do you get a consummation out of this text?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 13, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Where, specifically , do you get a consummation out of this text?



PM coming.


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## welderguy (Aug 13, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> PM coming.



Not disagreeing or agreeing with your PM.I don't see it being much help either way in discerning this debate though.

I keep thinking about how Joseph purposed to deal with Mary,his betrothed virgin,when she was found with child.There definitely was a binding covenant between them,although there had been no consummation.


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## Israel (Aug 14, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Now I've got to make myself ready for the wedding. How righteous will I need to become?


To whose eyes? In whose eyes?
As far as I know, in fact, my wife never asked anyone if she was good enough for me before our marriage.
But in truth I know she did not.
That's because I know she is mine, and the God who owns me (us) never gives an imperfect gift. 
Such as one might be if she cared for the opinion of others in such a matter.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 14, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Not disagreeing or agreeing with your PM.I don't see it being much help either way in discerning this debate though.
> 
> I keep thinking about how Joseph purposed to deal with Mary,his betrothed virgin,when she was found with child.There definitely was a binding covenant between them,although there had been no consummation.




Were Joseph and Mary one yet? Are Christians one with Christ?


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## welderguy (Aug 14, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Were Joseph and Mary one yet? Are Christians one with Christ?



Joseph and Mary were not one yet while Mary was a virgin.

We(the church) will be presented to Christ as a chaste virgin as well.
In John 17,Jesus prayed that those whom the Father gavest(past)Him would be(future) one with Him.In the state the disciples were in at that moment,they were not yet one with Him.
But notice,Jesus also prays that they would "be where We are".This is key to knowing when we will be one with Him.It's when we are where He is(physically).Heaven.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 14, 2016)

A female once betrothed was still under the covering or laws of her father. The father still protected her, housed her, and took care of her. She had to remain obedient to her father.
The only thing a father could not do is call off the wedding once he had accepted the engagement..except for adultery.

This betrothal period usually didn't last long. The longest mentioned was Jacob to Rachel in which he worked 7 years for her father to take her in marriage, only to receive the oldest daughter..and to work another sever years. So 14 years he was betrothed to Rachel. That is the longest period mentioned.

The betrothal period is a perfect example of Christ's wedding. The woman was still under the covering or her parents ( old covenant) but was promised to her husband ( Christ) in the wedding that would seal bring to its fullness the New Covenant. This explains the already, but not yet.

 Revelation 19 shows us the battle that took place in 70ad , and the wedding feast after it. I affirm that if the wedding has not taken place as shown in old covenant Ezekiel...Then the old covenant stands and the new covenant is a future promise...not a reality.
 I believe it has been consummated and we live in the promise given to the bride, way back when.


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## Big7 (Aug 14, 2016)

Sorry folks..

Welderguy has this thread nailed.

What's the next topic for discussion?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 14, 2016)

Here is a very telling point.
 In Matthew 9:15 Jesus refers to His Disciples as friends of the bridegroom, some versions uses guests...So His disciples would not be the Bride, but would play a major part in the wedding.

15 And Jesus said to them, “Can the friends of the bridegroom mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast.

Here we see the part Paul is going to play. He's going to present the Bride to the Groom.

The bride being those 1st Century Christians.

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


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## welderguy (Aug 14, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Here is a very telling point.
> In Matthew 9:15 Jesus refers to His Disciples as friends of the bridegroom, some versions uses guests...So His disciples would not be the Bride, but would play a major part in the wedding.
> 
> 15 And Jesus said to them, “Can the friends of the bridegroom mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast.
> ...



First of all, it's "children of the bridechamber" in the King James.

Second,now it sounds like you are saying the disciples/Paul were not part of the church.That is very bizzare.

Are you sure you want to take that stand?
Seems you would have to cut the entire book of Acts out.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 14, 2016)

welderguy said:


> First of all, it's "children of the bridechamber" in the King James.
> 
> Second,now it sounds like you are saying the disciples/Paul were not part of the church.That is very bizzare.
> 
> ...


 
Actually...The Bride of Christ is not the ekklesia at all. The ekklesia makes up the Bride of Christ which is actually the New Jerusalem.


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## welderguy (Aug 14, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Actually...The Bride of Christ is not the ekklesia at all. The ekklesia makes up the Bride of Christ which is actually the New Jerusalem.



Very good point.I agree.
But,I still must ask if you think the disciples/Paul were not part of the church(body of Christ)?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 14, 2016)

A part, but not the same as the others. They (the twelve) and I'm not sure how Judas,Matthias, and Paul fit in here : But they were guests of the bridegroom, while others were to be presented as a pure virgin bride..

What do you make of Paul presenting a church as a pure virgin bride?


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## welderguy (Aug 14, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> A part, but not the same as the others. They (the twelve) and I'm not sure how Judas,Matthias, and Paul fit in here : But they were guests of the bridegroom, while others were to be presented as a pure virgin bride..
> 
> What do you make of Paul presenting a church as a pure virgin bride?



I think Col.1 gives some light on that.Paul is in the position as an undershepherd to the church to minister to them the gospel .

And I stand corrected.Christ is the head of the body,which is the church(Ekklesia).

Col.1:18

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I think Col.1 gives some light on that.Paul is in the position as an undershepherd to the church to minister to them the gospel .
> 
> And I stand corrected.Christ is the head of the body,which is the church(Ekklesia).
> 
> ...





Then maybe the marriage is the birth of or beginning of the New Covenant, the creation of the church in its fullness. When figuratively speaking the ekklesia become one with Christ?

 I know you can't accept this premise, but at least you can see how it fits.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

To better explain this. Many of the church in the first century were before faithful Jew's, but seeing Christ as the Messiah through faith they walked away from the old covenant priesthood and sacrifices. Gentiles also were joining them through their faith in Christ, but the New Christians were being persecuted by the Jew's.

What happened in 70ad put an end to the persecution by the Jew's,  it put an end to the apostates that rejected Christ..and completed the New Covenant with the consummation..the ekklesia becoming one with Christ. One body.

As the old covenant body died in childbirth of the new covenant body.

The kingdom or New Jerusalem then came down,  that the ekklesia would have a spiritual kingdom on earth, one that has only one ruler..Christ, and no kings of the earth are over her.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 15, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Then maybe the marriage is the birth of or beginning of the New Covenant, the creation of the church in its fullness. When figuratively speaking the ekklesia become one with Christ?
> 
> I know you can't accept this premise, but at least you can see how it fits.
> 
> ...



The Church has it not in the past and in some cases in the present been an enemy of Christ? I don't think becoming one with Christ speaks to a love hate relationship.

How many doors has the Church created to salvation? Many hinges have been made to swing in time with the fittings of church when it was in deep error! 

I take it that preterist view is just another man made door attempting to fit itself into the jamb fitted to the only one possible.

99.9 % of Christians from the get go believe in the second coming where all enemy of God shall be destroyed and the last of the enemy will be death. And physical death is meant, because simply ALL shall be placed ( in the future even from today) under our Lord's feet and destroyed and then all shall be restored to God the Father according to scripture. And as it was in the beginning so it will be in the end.

It is in Christ the gate that all will be revived, and simply there is surely need of more revivals in this world of sin and sorrows and death.  The bride may well be starting her walk to the alter and yet the groom is still in his tabernacle waiting... as the door and the only door which is Christ is still opened to pilgrims. It is not yet the second coming, not yet. Nor has it been.

At this point I could quote scripture to "fit". Not that I would find the need to make it to fit me, for example Corinthians 15: 20-27, but that it fits God to say that it fits me. 

There is one Christianity that through out the centuries has heard and heeded the voice of but one shepard or there is nothing. 70 ad is not a big deal as some would like to "fit" it. It is not a door opening or closing. A better door than Him that stood on the cross, died and resurrected bodily is not. Jesus is the right door for the right jamb--- everything else is vanity.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 15, 2016)

Gordon, I respect your opinion, and have always loved your zeal for the Lord, but becoming one with Christ is nothing but a love love relationship.

Maybe your definition of church and mine is different, but I'm willing to accept that difference. I agree 99.9% of Christians believe in a future second coming from the get go, but as they study the word, some are not only doubting, but believing otherwise. It's a scriptural and therefore valid belief.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 15, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Gordon, I respect your opinion, and have always loved your zeal for the Lord, but becoming one with Christ is nothing but a love love relationship.
> 
> Maybe your definition of church and mine is different, but I'm willing to accept that difference. I agree 99.9% of Christians believe in a future second coming from the get go, but as they study the word, some are not only doubting, but believing otherwise. It's a scriptural and therefore valid belief.



My definition of the church is far and wide, ( out of charity I don't limit it to a denomination, not even my own) but it is always checked by the elders of the far and wide church ( of many denominations) which includes all the elders from the very first times to the present. People ( run of the mill saints) today are not smarter spiritually than our elders present and from the past. Their teacher is/was our teacher.

It seems to me that end times that is marked by 70 ad distorts scripture and the tradition passed down  of what the church has always believed  from our elders. It distorts it so much as to create a belief aside from Christianity and not at all of it.

Although I have lots of respect for your perseverance and patience and for you as an individual... to be honest you ideas on end time seem to me to be consuming passions that might be better suited to the work of our kingdom, which is yours and mine.

But hey... that's just my take....  I just don't get why this 70 ad is so important to a church that has been commissioned to spread the simple gospel all over the world and in many case to re-spread it in our own communities....today.

I live with God being present in the word and in the church, both. Too much time in one or the other at the expense of making one less important, instead of equal importance seem to me to be asking for problems.  70 ad as end time seems to me the outcome of too much time in the word at the expense of our church.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 15, 2016)

Maybe someday I will submit to man's traditions.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 15, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Maybe someday I will submit to man's traditions.




I know what you mean. It took me a LOOOOG time to realize that to submit is to serve the Lord and that such is the will of an elder.

For a long time, when still a young man I felt elders were hypocrits. They robbed people of creativity and energy. Now I know better.

Many "bible" based beliefs can be said man made also... and  elders can help with this also.

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2 Thessalonians 2:15 

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.


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## Israel (Aug 15, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Maybe someday I will submit to man's traditions.


God forbid!
What profit would there be to your soul in that?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 15, 2016)

Big7 said:


> Sorry folks..
> 
> Welderguy has this thread nailed.
> 
> What's the next topic for discussion?



Rev 19:7 says: "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

What are you doing to make yourself ready for your bridegroom?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 15, 2016)

It's hard to imagine being one with Christ as in a marriage if the marriage hasn't taken place yet. I've been in the engagement period before the consummation but I never felt like I was one with my wife until the consummation.

But if I am one with Christ now today, what is John saying in 1 John 3:2?

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Child of God
Brother of Jesus
bride of Jesus

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Luke 17:30
It will be just like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

Maybe we don't know our bridegroom as well as we think we do.


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