# legalism



## hobbs27 (Oct 30, 2014)

Does it seem to be a growing movement to anyone else? I have a friend that's been going to a certain church for three years now and legalism has consumed him to the point that he hates the word grace.

He actually argues with me that love has nothing to do with the new covenant, and the Old Covenant laws are still prevalent today disguised in New Covenant commandments. 

Has anyone been faced with helping a brother out of this mindset? It breaks my heart that someone must live as a lifeless/ loveless robot in this covenant of Grace.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 30, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Does it seem to be a growing movement to anyone else? I have a friend that's been going to a certain church for three years now and legalism has consumed him to the point that he hates the word grace.
> 
> He actually argues with me that love has nothing to do with the new covenant, and the Old Covenant laws are still prevalent today disguised in New Covenant commandments.
> 
> Has anyone been faced with helping a brother out of this mindset? It breaks my heart that someone must live as a lifeless/ loveless robot in this covenant of Grace.


He denies the nature and work of Christ. Spend more time with him and be relentless in pointing out his breaking of the law.


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## ryanh487 (Oct 30, 2014)

There is a distinct difference between obedience and legalism.  Legalism says "if I do these things, I will EARN salvation".  Obedience says "Because God has granted me grace for my past mistakes, I will lovingly obey Him in all things because I have died and Christ lives in me."

Salvation is a narrow path with a ditch on either side--legalism on one, and the idea that grace means a free pass to sin on the other.  Faith is dead without works, but works are dead without faith.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 30, 2014)

ryanh487 said:


> There is a distinct difference between obedience and legalism.  Legalism says "if I do these things, I will EARN salvation".  Obedience says "Because God has granted me grace for my past mistakes, I will lovingly obey Him in all things because I have died and Christ lives in me."
> 
> Salvation is a narrow path with a ditch on either side--legalism on one, and the idea that grace means a free pass to sin on the other.  Faith is dead without works, but works are dead without faith.



Ryan, I've never studied it so can you point me to the scriptures that claim grace is not sufficient. Maybe if I see where he is getting these ideas I can better communicate with him about it.


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## ryanh487 (Oct 30, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Ryan, I've never studied it so can you point me to the scriptures that claim grace is not sufficient. Maybe if I see where he is getting these ideas I can better communicate with him about it.



It's not so much that grace through faith is not sufficient, it's the definition of what it means to accept that grace and live by faith that people miss. 

Romans chapter 6, 1 John chapter 3, and James chapter 2 are a great primer course on what it means to live by faith.

Faith is not simply the mental or emotional acknowledgement of Christ.  As James said, even the demons acknowledge this. Faith is living by the promises Christ made, and by the standard Christ set.  Faith is action.  If we claim Christ is our savior, but live to serve the enemy, then we have not accepted the grace He offers us over our past sins and we do not have faith that he truly is LORD.

It's easy to claim you have faith in a parachute from the ground.  But you don't have faith until you jump at 40,000 feet.


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## formula1 (Oct 30, 2014)

*Re:*

I hate legalism and personally I try to get as far away from folks that are steeped in it.  But I'm not telling you to do that, especially to your friend.

I see this as the very thing that Paul was trying to correct in the church that we read in Galatians.  Consider this passage as a starting point:

Galatians 2
17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 30, 2014)

ryanh487 said:


> It's not so much that grace through faith is not sufficient, it's the definition of what it means to accept that grace and live by faith that people miss.
> 
> Romans chapter 6, 1 John chapter 3, and James chapter 2 are a great primer course on what it means to live by faith.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I actually did use 1John 3 in our conversation as this being the commandment of the new covenant:

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I dont mind someone living how they feel they should live, but he's pointing his finger at other brothers and condemning them on petty things. An example would be someone joking around and he gets offended by it and pulls them off to the side and tells them they are not living Christlike...another example is he says one must give 10% of their income in tithes or they are not in covenant with God.. It appears as he tries to be seen by others as sin free, pride has built up in him...


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## hobbs27 (Oct 30, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> He denies the nature and work of Christ. Spend more time with him and be relentless in pointing out his breaking of the law.



Thanks.



			
				Formula1 said:
			
		

> I hate legalism and personally I try to get as far away from folks that are steeped in it. But I'm not telling you to do that, especially to your friend.
> 
> I see this as the very thing that Paul was trying to correct in the church that we read in Galatians. Consider this passage as a starting point:
> 
> ...


 Thanks, I also work with him, so I have to be around him, and he's going through a tough time with his wife being very sick...so I'm trying to approach this softly as I can...but boy he can be brutal.


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## ryanh487 (Oct 30, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Thanks, I actually did use 1John 3 in our conversation as this being the commandment of the new covenant:
> 
> 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
> 
> ...



Ah, and that can be problematic.  There are many scriptures that suggest that it is the loving responsibility of each member of the body of Christ to hold the others accountable, but accountable in love.  Pride has no room in Godly counsel/appropriate rebuke.  It's a pendulum that many sway back and forth with trying to find balance.  At what point are we being judgmental pharisees, and at what point are we contributing to our brother's destruction by remaining silent?   That is a very difficult road to walk.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 30, 2014)

Christ came to set us free, not bind us


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## ryanh487 (Oct 30, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Christ came to set us free, not bind us



Sin bound us, and the consequence of the law because of our sin--not the law.

The law commands perfect adherence, or death.  Christ adhered perfectly and still died, which is why we can claim his sacrifice in place of our just punishment.  All of us have sinned and fallen short, ALL of us deserve death.  The grace of God eliminates our punishment when we accept the spirit of Chris in our hearts and put to death the spirit of sin that previously dwelled in us.  Christ did not set us free TO sin, he set us free FROM sin.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 30, 2014)

I tend to understand it this way. The law brought sin, sin brought death. The death was spiritual seperation from God.

Christ redeamed us, covered our sins, now we have the indwelling of the spirit...eternal life,( no more spiritual disconnect from God)

 Only of us that have entered into covenant with God by believing in Jesus Christ.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 30, 2014)

ryanh487 said:


> Sin bound us, and the consequence of the law because of our sin--not the law.
> 
> The law commands perfect adherence, or death.  Christ adhered perfectly and still died, which is why we can claim his sacrifice in place of our just punishment.  All of us have sinned and fallen short, ALL of us deserve death.  The grace of God eliminates our punishment when we accept the spirit of Chris in our hearts and put to death the spirit of sin that previously dwelled in us.  Christ did not set us free TO sin, he set us free FROM sin.


He set us free from bondage. When the Israelite slaves were about to go free, the slave master said, more straw, more quota. This is a picture of the legalism of new Christians. Every new convert I see takes the same road. One of bondage/ legalism. They repel rather than attract. Eventually most come to see the freedom we have in Christ.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 30, 2014)

While Jesus did set us free from sin, our topic was legalism of which he set us free. Matt 11…28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.";28


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 30, 2014)

I would tell him this:

9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 30, 2014)

Have him read some of the sermons presented by Skeester;

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=821482


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 30, 2014)

Fact is that you will not change his mind with a hundred verses. When it comes to religion, everyone assumes himself right. Only an inward motivation causes someone to rethink his previous beliefs. I have never changed my own beliefs, although many changes have happened, due to someone else pointing out anything. And I have never seen anyone's belief changed. Like your he11 topic. As cut and dry, clear as crystal, words correctly defined, etc, I bet no one changed their belief. I remember when I used to defend the trinity. No one, even those JW's could convince me otherwise, and now I have changed due to my own inward motivations. It's almost as if we have no say in the mater, as if we all are subject to believing what a higher power wants us to believe. Strange thought, I know


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## hobbs27 (Oct 30, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Fact is that you will not change his mind with a hundred verses. When it comes to religion, everyone assumes himself right. Only an inward motivation causes someone to rethink his previous beliefs. I have never changed my own beliefs, although many changes have happened, due to someone else pointing out anything. And I have never seen anyone's belief changed. Like your he11 topic. As cut and dry, clear as crystal, words correctly defined, etc, I bet no one changed their belief. I remember when I used to defend the trinity. No one, even those JW's could convince me otherwise, and now I have changed due to my own inward motivations. It's almost as if we have no say in the mater, as if we all are subject to believing what a higher power wants us to believe. Strange thought, I know



My mind was changed on the he11 topic. I admit I had already seen some things that prepared me to question it but I thought those questions would have been answered easily, and I could comfortably continue to believe in eternal punishment.

I agree it will take a change inwardly, but if I can just get his attention a bit to make him question where he's at now...btw he hasn't always been like this.

Thanks for your help, and bringing up Christ yoke being easy.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 30, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Fact is that you will not change his mind with a hundred verses. When it comes to religion, everyone assumes himself right. Only an inward motivation causes someone to rethink his previous beliefs. I have never changed my own beliefs, although many changes have happened, due to someone else pointing out anything. And I have never seen anyone's belief changed. Like your he11 topic. As cut and dry, clear as crystal, words correctly defined, etc, I bet no one changed their belief. I remember when I used to defend the trinity. No one, even those JW's could convince me otherwise, and now I have changed due to my own inward motivations. It's almost as if we have no say in the mater, as if we all are subject to believing what a higher power wants us to believe. Strange thought, I know



What would make a Christian such as yourself, me, or Hobbs change their beliefs on the Trinity, HE11, OR 70ad?


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## hobbs27 (Oct 30, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> What would make a Christian such as yourself, me, or Hobbs change their beliefs on the Trinity, HE11, OR 70ad?



For me it would take re-writing the bible 

 Or just someone to prove otherwise with the scriptures available. Folks stepping out of the conversation, or avoiding verses and questions just concretes my beliefs.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 30, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> For me it would take re-writing the bible
> 
> Or just someone to prove otherwise with the scriptures available. Folks stepping out of the conversation, or avoiding verses and questions just concretes my beliefs.



But you would agree that telling him what Paul said "and such were some of you" would be inline with grace and that Paul's list of sins that would keep one from the Kingdom would not keep a washed Christian from the Kingdom?

If your friend told you this;
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Would you tell him this;
11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 

It appears on another thread about "will there be any in Heaven" many Christians forgot about grace and the washing.

We can't have it both ways. Either salvation is from grace alone or it is from grace plus works.

Give some answer about fruit and your friend might be right.


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## ryanh487 (Oct 31, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I tend to understand it this way. The law brought sin, sin brought death. The death was spiritual seperation from God.
> 
> Christ redeamed us, covered our sins, now we have the indwelling of the spirit...eternal life,( no more spiritual disconnect from God)
> 
> Only of us that have entered into covenant with God by believing in Jesus Christ.



Ah, but the Law did not CAUSE sin, it merely reveals sin.  David tells us in Psalms that the law of the Lord is perfect, and delightful. 

The problem is not with the law.  the law is the very character of Christ and the standard of Heaven. The problem is with our rebellious nature, that results in us falling under the penalty of transgressing the law.  

Christ obeyed the law and took the undeserved punishment of the law so that despite our breaking the law, we could reap the undeserved righteousness of his perfect keeping of law.  

The law itself is neither burdensome, nor restrictive.  It is INSTRUCTIVE of how the Creator created ALL things to be happiest, holiest, and most perfect.  Our rebellion against the law is the problem. 

Look at it this way -- when you have dirt on your face, how do you know? You look in a mirror.  Is it the mirror's fault that you have dirt on your face? Of course not! Can the mirror cleanse the dirt from your face?  Of course not!

The law is like a mirror.  Sin is dirt.  The law reveals to us the sin in our lives, but Christ, not the law, removes that sin.  Without the law, we have no need of Christ, because we have no knowledge of the dirt we are covered in. 

Our filth is the burden, not the law that reveals it to us.  The law is the standard that we should long for--because it is how God created us to live, and it is the way of His kingdom.  Holiness is not something to dread, but something to strive for.  Heaven is heaven because all those who receive heavens reward will be made HOLY.  If Holy is what eternal happiness in heaven is all about, why on earth would we tell folks that they have no reason to worry about it here on earth?


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## Israel (Oct 31, 2014)

ryanh487 said:


> Ah, but the Law did not CAUSE sin, it merely reveals sin.  David tells us in Psalms that the law of the Lord is perfect, and delightful.
> 
> The problem is not with the law.  the law is the very character of Christ and the standard of Heaven. The problem is with our rebellious nature, that results in us falling under the penalty of transgressing the law.
> 
> ...


I appreciate much of what you said. And I do not doubt that if given to say more you might have, and might see this, also.
Could you also agree that the law is spiritual? As surely as it is right, and holy, and good, it is likewise spiritual in nature, and the "burden" you speak of, under which we labor, is no less of being carnal as sinners so that our understanding, and relationship to the law is primarily skewed, and as much a "problem", if you will, as sin of itself?
Jesus wanted to make it clear to those who might "take this mirror" and say "I have not slept with my neighbor's wife" and come away quite satisfied with their own image, that to even lust in the heart is to commit adultery. The "physical act" of which we may pride ourselves in its denial, is not unseen in the heart, when there, by the Lord who sees all.
What the law could not do...(due to our weakness in the flesh) Christ has done.  In the flesh, one would easily see, the law produces lawyers...of us all. We interpret, we make addenda, we adjust...and somehow, (not because of the law, but because the law is given to carnal man) we take something and make it malleable for ourselves...but never quite at all for our neighbor.
The good neighbor came. He changes us, not according to ordinances that spoke against us, but according to the power of an indestructible life.
To the carnal man, the law might just as easily be written in Turtle.
It is only in being given to see the Christ of God that a man may behold the one who does not covet, keeps God above all, rightly keeps the Sabbath, and fulfills perfectly all that once resulted in much vain strivings amongst us.
A child may come to appreciate the many ordinances that once kept him locked up, but for this purpose alone, that he may grow, see his Father as something other than merely "law" giver for the sake of only exercising power, and come to know the love that kept him from killing himself, even in all the "no's" he had to endure as a child.
Because, despite our mistaken belief that the law is flexible, it is everything that is not...yet, for the purpose of bringing us to the one whose heart is (except by, and through, Christ) unbelievably tender.
In all of this a man must ask himself, and that before God, (for who can escape the seer of all?) is Christ a son because he kept the law...or is he a son abiding eternal, sent to us, who was made willing to appear "under law"?


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 31, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> What would make a Christian such as yourself, me, or Hobbs change their beliefs on the Trinity, HE11, OR 70ad?


I think an inward moving of the Spirit.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 31, 2014)

Israel said:


> I appreciate much of what you said. And I do not doubt that if given to say more you might have, and might see this, also.
> Could you also agree that the law is spiritual? As surely as it is right, and holy, and good, it is likewise spiritual in nature, and the "burden" you speak of, under which we labor, is no less of being carnal as sinners so that our understanding, and relationship to the law is primarily skewed, and as much a "problem", if you will, as sin of itself?
> Jesus wanted to make it clear to those who might "take this mirror" and say "I have not slept with my neighbor's wife" and come away quite satisfied with their own image, that to even lust in the heart is to commit adultery. The "physical act" of which we may pride ourselves in its denial, is not unseen in the heart, when there, by the Lord who sees all.
> What the law could not do...(due to our weakness in the flesh) Christ has done.  In the flesh, one would easily see, the law produces lawyers...of us all. We interpret, we make addenda, we adjust...and somehow, (not because of the law, but because the law is given to carnal man) we take something and make it malleable for ourselves...but never quite at all for our neighbor.
> ...



Amen..
 This is deeper than most give it credit for: ( behold the Kingdom of God is within you)

***PRAISE REPORT***

Our discussion of this topic has brought out a lot of scripture and ideas that I was able to use last night as we continued our discussion. This morning I got an IM from my friend that says after considering the scriptures (we) brought up to him and prayer the spirit has revealed and changed his opinion some!

 He still has a little way to go, but he is in a repentive state right now...hoping he will be back to his old self soon and rely on the spirit more so than the mirror.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 31, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> ...another example is he says one must give 10% of their income in tithes or they are not in covenant with God..



You should ask him to study how much the tithe was.

If he's only doing 10%, he's not even doing a third of what was commanded of the Jews.

I can't stand legalism.  Sure, people are going to have preferences, but to call them principle...that is legalism.  Now...that being said, not a fan of sinning so grace can abound either.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 1, 2014)

In Christianity, an antinomian is one who denies the fixed meaning and applicability of moral law and believes that salvation is attained solely through faith and divine grace. Many antinomians, however, believe that Christians will obey moral law despite being free from it.

Is there a dispensation of Grace?


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## centerpin fan (Nov 1, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> In Christianity, an antinomian is one who denies the fixed meaning and applicability of moral law and believes that salvation is attained solely through faith and divine grace. Many antinomians, however, believe that Christians will obey moral law despite being free from it.



I thought that was the stuff that covered Wolverine's skeleton.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 1, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> I thought that was the stuff that covered Wolverine's skeleton.



Nope, it's one who hates gnomes!


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 1, 2014)

How the dispensation of Grace works:

Thank you for your question. First of all, adultery is wrong and is never something God advocates. In fact, even under the dispensation of grace God condemns it as you pointed out. The excuse of “couldn’t help himself” is not a valid excuse.

    “Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” – Eph 5:5-6

It is true that adulterers, fornicators, drunkards, and idolators shall not inherit the kingdom of God. The reason that they shall not is because there is no payment for their sins. Their sins are so wicked in the judicial and righteous eyes of God that he can do nothing else but cast them out of the kingdom.

http://graceambassadors.com/salvation/can-an-adulterer-go-to-heaven


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 1, 2014)

The Mystery revealed by Paul to the Gentiles:

Yet, without the mystery of Christ all of us would fit many of those descriptions and would not qualify to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus amplified the description of adultery to include lustful thoughts (Mat 5:28).

But Titus 3:4 describes that the kindness and love of God brought salvation to ungodly man through Jesus Christ’s blood payment for sins.

The reason those adulterers will not inherit the kingdom is because their sin is repulsive before a holy judge. The reason you will inherit the kingdom* once you believe is because Christ paid for your sins.

In each passage that Paul makes these lists of kingdom rejects (Eph 5, 1 Cor 6, and Gal 5) he is doing so as to convince the hearers of the wrongness of those actions, but he is in no wise placing a works requirement upon the blood payment of the Lord.

To the carnal fornicating Corinthians he even writes, “and such were some of you, but ye are sanctified, justified, and washed…” (1 Cor 6:11). 

http://graceambassadors.com/salvation/can-an-adulterer-go-to-heaven


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 1, 2014)

Sanctified:

Sanctified?! They were doing things repulsive even to heathens. The fornicating Corinthians were sanctified? Yes, because of the Lord Jesus Christ and his payment for their sins. Paul then continues to essentially say, “Stop doing those things that are unbecoming of a saint of God.”

The blood of Jesus and his resurrection save us from the judgment upon our sin, but it does not change the nature of sin: it is always wrong. The proper grace response is to stop doing it and to walk in newness of life (Rom 6:1-11).

In the end, Paul tells the Corinthians not to fellowship with the fornicators amongst them. Hopefully, the separation would make them realize their grievous behavior and would prevent a bad influence on the weaker brethren (1 Cor 5:11).

However, the truth of the cross is made available to all sinful humanity and is accessible even by adulterers if they trust that Christ did all that was necessary for their salvation.

* The kingdom here is not speaking about the Davidic earthly kingdom promised to Israel, but the kingdom of Christ as Paul describes in Col 1:13. 

http://graceambassadors.com/salvation/can-an-adulterer-go-to-heaven


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## hummerpoo (Nov 1, 2014)

ryanh487 said:


> There is a distinct difference between obedience and legalism.  Legalism says "if I do these things, I will EARN salvation".  Obedience says "Because God has granted me grace for my past mistakes, I will lovingly obey Him in all things because I have died and Christ lives in me."
> 
> Salvation is a narrow path with a ditch on either side--legalism on one, and the idea that grace means a free pass to sin on the other.  Faith is dead without works, but works are dead without faith.





ryanh487 said:


> Ah, but the Law did not CAUSE sin, it merely reveals sin.  David tells us in Psalms that the law of the Lord is perfect, and delightful.
> 
> The problem is not with the law.  the law is the very character of Christ and the standard of Heaven. The problem is with our rebellious nature, that results in us falling under the penalty of transgressing the law.
> 
> ...





Israel said:


> I appreciate much of what you said. And I do not doubt that if given to say more you might have, and might see this, also.
> Could you also agree that the law is spiritual? As surely as it is right, and holy, and good, it is likewise spiritual in nature, and the "burden" you speak of, under which we labor, is no less of being carnal as sinners so that our understanding, and relationship to the law is primarily skewed, and as much a "problem", if you will, as sin of itself?
> Jesus wanted to make it clear to those who might "take this mirror" and say "I have not slept with my neighbor's wife" and come away quite satisfied with their own image, that to even lust in the heart is to commit adultery. The "physical act" of which we may pride ourselves in its denial, is not unseen in the heart, when there, by the Lord who sees all.
> What the law could not do...(due to our weakness in the flesh) Christ has done.  In the flesh, one would easily see, the law produces lawyers...of us all. We interpret, we make addenda, we adjust...and somehow, (not because of the law, but because the law is given to carnal man) we take something and make it malleable for ourselves...but never quite at all for our neighbor.
> ...





Artfuldodger said:


> In Christianity, an antinomian is one who denies the fixed meaning and applicability of moral law and believes that salvation is attained solely through faith and divine grace. Many antinomians, however, believe that Christians will obey moral law despite being free from it.
> 
> Is there a dispensation of Grace?



Romans 7:
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.


Antinomianism is the path from understanding (which our brothers have so well illustrated above) to misunderstanding (such as "Christ fulfilled the law so it no longer counts") at which destination the outcome is, at worst, the death of discipleship, and at best, the stifling of sanctification.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 1, 2014)

Let's continue in Romans 7;

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 

The new "washed" Paul concurs with the law of God (salvation through Jesus)  in the inner man. He the "washed" Paul is confessing that the "Law"(the one he was saved from) is not good. Good in response of trying to live under it.

Now the question is was Paul living under the Law as a Jew and living under the Epistles of Acts vs the Prison Epistles of just grace?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 1, 2014)

If Christ didn't fulfill the law, what was the purpose of his trip to Earth? The Produce?
Why didn't we save ourselves from the Law? Why don't we just quit sinning?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 1, 2014)

18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 

This is the way I feel and why I love Paul's teachings so much. He appears to be more human or I can identify with Paul about such matters.
He knows nothing good dwells in his flesh yet in Galatians he presents fruits of the Holy Spirit. We do know from his life history that he did do good things in his teaching to the Churches. 
Perhaps through his New spiritual self and the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Paul knew his new self was something different from his flesh. Nothing good dwells in his flesh. This was his ministry. This was his mission. This was his lesson. Presented and offered to a Gentile as myself. 
I feel just like Paul does concerning my personal battle with my Old Self. I don't completely understand it just like Paul didn't. 
I do completely understand the Mystery and why Paul's calling was so important. It would be a lie for me to say I completely understand God's grace so I just accept it.
Sometimes Paul appears confused. I admire his honesty. Sometimes I appear confused. I'm just being honest. Just as Paul I still battle with sin. I don't want to sin. I do understand it is my flesh. I do accept my "washing." 
Amen for my "washing." This washing is totally from God's grace.
So call me what you will, I was saved by God's grace alone and nothing from me.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 1, 2014)

Humans can't follow moral law and live a life free of sin. This was presented by God either directly or accepted by God through Adam's sin. It was God's way of showing humans that we could never do this and needed salvation. It was God's plan. 
He presented us with the Old Testament as HIS testament that we would eventually need salvation. 
Knowing this, God sent his only begotten son to die for our sins. It would be foolish to think we could overcome sin in our fleshy bodies without Jesus. That was the main purpose of his trip to the Earth.
All of this is prophesied in the Bible. 

The Law or sin was God's way of showing us how we needed him and salvation through his Son Jesus. We needed the Law and sin as a base line to show us what we needed saving from.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 2, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> Antinomianism is the path from understanding (which our brothers have so well illustrated above) to misunderstanding (such as "Christ fulfilled the law so it no longer counts") at which destination the outcome is, at worst, the death of discipleship, and at best, the stifling of sanctification.



I don't look at it that way at all. We should still be imitators of God as Ephesians 5:1 tells us. We just don't see living by moral law as being a part of our salvation but a result of our salvation.
Once we believe that any part of our "living by the law" is a part of our salvation then we must live by all of the law.
If we get circumcised because we believe it is a necessary part of our salvation then we must follow the law fully.

What we believe is explained in Ephesians 5 where once again Paul gives a list of sins that will keep someone "not washed" or "formerly in darkness" from the Kingdom:

Ephesians 5:3-9
3But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7Therefore do not be partakers with them;8for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light 9(for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth),

We as Christians were FORMERLY in darkness but are now the Light of the Lord. We were washed.
Now the sanctification and discipleship  can still take place even with a belief that Jesus died for our sins and that grace is TOTALLY from God and God alone.
No death of discipleship or stifling of sanctification has to happen to grace only believers. We are free from even having the yoke around our neck. Jesus removed this yoke of slavery.


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## Israel (Nov 2, 2014)

I don't think Hummerpoo was taking aim at grace...but at a thing which, actually in defiance of grace, does not, or cannot, or refuses to see, everything of God has value and purpose, and is good.
Can God reveal something superior? Of course...but with that should never come the despite toward something previous.
One sees sonship as superior to being a servant...but God forbid he despise the one who is both Son, and servant.
Such a one may never know either.
Without the spirit to lead and instruct, and reveal chastenings as unto sons, a man like myself easily casts off many things...never quite knowing that the casting off of a thing, does not always equal putting on Christ.


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## hummerpoo (Nov 2, 2014)

Israel said:


> I don't think Hummerpoo was taking aim at grace...but at a thing which, actually in defiance of grace, does not, or cannot, or refuses to see, everything of God has value and purpose, and is good.
> Can God reveal something superior? Of course...but with that should never come the despite toward something previous.
> One sees sonship as superior to being a servant...but God forbid he despise the one who is both Son, and servant.
> Such a one may never know either.
> Without the spirit to lead and instruct, and reveal chastenings as unto sons, a man like myself easily casts off many things...never quite knowing that the casting off of a thing, does not always equal putting on Christ.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 2, 2014)

Israel said:


> I don't think Hummerpoo was taking aim at grace...but at a thing which, actually in defiance of grace, does not, or cannot, or refuses to see, everything of God has value and purpose, and is good.
> Can God reveal something superior? Of course...but with that should never come the despite toward something previous.
> One sees sonship as superior to being a servant...but God forbid he despise the one who is both Son, and servant.
> Such a one may never know either.
> Without the spirit to lead and instruct, and reveal chastenings as unto sons, a man like myself easily casts off many things...never quite knowing that the casting off of a thing, does not always equal putting on Christ.



Yea! to put on Christ in our minds, to our spirit, and to our physical body--our soul-- all of it. Lots of folks think they can put on Christ and do, except they often forget to sacrifice their bodies as Christ and Paul did.

Now to sacrifice the body would be no sacrifice if the body was not wholesome. Putting on is not always a casting off, is what I understand you saying here. If so I agree and Peace bros.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 2, 2014)

Ephesians 5:1

New Living Translation
Imitate God, therefore, in everything you do, because you are his dear children.

English Standard Version
Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;

Maybe imitate is a bad translation.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 2, 2014)

Ephesians 5:8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light 9(for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth),

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son,

1 Thessalonians 5:4-8     “But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day [of judgment] would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. ”

This darkness, domain, realm, is something Christians are no longer apart of. This is the reason that we shouldn't live like we are still a part of this realm.

Yet just as Paul,  I struggle with sin. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. I hope God doesn't consider my sinning "in defiance of grace."
I am no longer of darkness. I am rescued from the kingdom of darkness. I shall live as a child of the Light.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 2, 2014)

Published on Thursday, October 22nd, 1908.
Delivered by
C. H. SPURGEON,
At the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Newington
On Lord's-day Evening, November 1st, 1874.

"Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound."—Romans 5:20.

THERE are two very powerful forces in the world, which have been here ever since the time when Eve partook of the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden. Those two forces are sin and grace. A very great power is sin, a power dark, mysterious, baleful, but full of force. The sorrows of mankind, whence came they but from sin?

The power that is to fight and overcome sin is ever described in the Word of God, as the natural goodness of human nature, Pshaw! That is but as wax before the fire, or as the fat of rams upon the altar; it is consumed in a moment in the fierce heat of sin. The force to combat sin is never described, in the truthful pages of God's Word, as the power of human endeavor to keep the law. Indeed, this has been tried, and it has utterly failed. 

The only counter force against sin is grace; so my text tells us, and we may learn the same truth from a hundred texts besides. And what is grace? Grace is the free favor of God, the undeserved bounty of the ever-gracious Creator against whom we have offended, the generous pardon, the infinite, spontaneous lovingkindness of the God who has been provoked and angered by our sin, but who, delighting in mercy, and grieving to smite the creatures whom he has made, is ever ready to pass by transgression, iniquity, and sin, and to save his people from all the evil consequences of their guilt. 

Full sermon at link:

http://spurgeon.org/sermons/3115.htm


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## hummerpoo (Nov 2, 2014)

A.W. Tozer

"Antinomianism is the doctrine of grace carried by uncorrected logic to the point of absurdity.  It takes the teaching of justification by faith and twists it into deformity.”


Spurgeon's Maxims for Living

We have in spiritual matters things called liberty which are no liberty. There is 
 Antinomian liberty—God deliver us from that! A man saith, “I am not under the law 
 of God, therefore I will live as I like.” A most blessed truth followed by a most 
 atrocious inference. 565.223

Oh! to be a child, and to give the obedience of a child and not the homage of a serf! 
 But the Antinomian saith, “I am not under the law, therefore will I live and fulfil my 
 own lust and pleasures.” Paul says of those who argue thus, their CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredation is just. 565.223 

And inasmuch as we had broken all God’s laws, and did not wish to own it, we hated 
 the law itself, we kicked against it, and tried to persuade ourselves that it was the 
 root of the offence, instead of our own wilful hearts being the source of the evil. 2587.434 

The law of God is no more than God might most righteously ask of us. If God were 
 about to give us a more tolerant law, it would be an admission on his part that he 
 asked too much at first. Can that be supposed? 1660.283 

Much more can be found.

http://www.spurgeon.us/mind_and_heart/quotes/a2.htm#


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## Israel (Nov 3, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Ephesians 5:8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light 9(for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth),
> 
> Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son,
> 
> ...


Grace both reveals and cures.
It's true, I believe, we can never "over rely" on grace, never make more of it than it is.
A man wouldn't even know he has "fallen short" in some area, were it not for grace.
Grace tells us, shows us, bequeaths to us, the perfection of Jesus Christ as Son and Lord, and also reveals to us ourselves, in Him. 
His liberty, is our liberty, his life, our life.
But just as he walked free, but with no desire to give offense, we convinced and convicted of that, may discover there yet remains a cause of stumbling taught our souls in our time of flesh, that can be effectively dealt with, also by this grace.
The question of "how Jesus, or what did you have, or see that kept you free from this stumbling I see in myself, that I not be an offender?"
I believe Jesus is more than willing (grace) to show us what we yet may lack of his revelation, to overcome in that area, and maintain a clean conscience before God.
Like the xray that reveals a tumor, that same light that exposes, can be effectually received to manifest its destruction.
Our having of certain dispositions "to" a certain thing or attitude that we see less than consistent with what we see of the Lord, that vision of it, is not given us for despair, but hope.
I know my words are poor. I know that at the time, such light seems enemy, not friend, for it may expose such that causes a great grief, but, in that wounding, there is healing.
What this light does, written ordinances cannot do, of that I trust, we are all aware.
The living word discloses, separates, and assigns, even in our sight when working according to his power, what is of heaven, and what may remain of our earthy understandings. And because of those yet remaining earthy understandings, stones may be seen, that may cause another to turn the ankle, and not be a help to making a straight, and level (Just) path of the Lord.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 3, 2014)

We could go back and forth on this matter.
I believe in salvation by grace. There are really
only two positions a person can have on this matter. One is that salvation is by grace, and
the other is that salvation is by works. It cannot be a combination of both.

John 5:24
Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Ephesians 2:1-6
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. 

John 6:37
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 3, 2014)

If I have to think then I've missed the boat and grace does not abound. If I'm constantly thinking and questioning my own actions if
They are sin...mixing Law and grace then I'm taking away from Grace.

Immanuel is present, the decisions are no longer thought out concerning a law written by an absent God. When grace abounds the decisions are made in the heart.


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## Israel (Nov 3, 2014)

Paul said his conscience was clear, that although he "knew" of nothing against himself, that did not make him innocent.
This work is no longer "from the outside in", but other way round. He could not point to any thing "out there" for justification as though he could confirm to himself, or before others, he was blameless in all regard.
What the Lord cares to disclose he discloses, regardless of how far we may think we have come or apprehended.
It seems, there is always a lower seat beckoning, always to be found, seated with him who has taken the lowest, in grace, for us.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 3, 2014)

We can't receive God's grace in vain:

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 6:1
Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain.


But the condemnation is over:

Romans 8:1
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.


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## hummerpoo (Nov 3, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> We could go back and forth on this matter.
> I believe in salvation by grace. There are really
> only two positions a person can have on this matter. One is that salvation is by grace, and
> the other is that salvation is by works. It cannot be a combination of both.



I don't believe the conversation is about justification (salvation); everyone, from post 01, has agreed on that issue. (Heb. 5:12-6:3)


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## Israel (Nov 3, 2014)

Jesus said something: 
"And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth."

Was Jesus free...to not pay the Temple Tax?
Yet, what did he say..."so as not to be an offense..." that, wherever possible, and whenever disclosed, what may be cause of offense to, or impediment to, another's clear hearing of the truth, we are also privileged to have removed from us.
Some discuss "sins", sinless perfection, as though white garments are given for parade. As though the goal is to "behold us"...perfect. Strangely, being made clean in his sight has nothing to do with "how we are doing"...but only with how He (Jesus) has done.
It has, I believe, much to do with singleness of eye...with which I need all the help...there is.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 5, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Christ came to set us free, not bind us



Christ came to give us complete, unobstructed access to God.
.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 6, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> Christ came to give us complete, unobstructed access to God.
> .


Hey friend, have been missing your input. You must have some sort of time consuming project going on.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 6, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey friend, have been missing your input. You must have some sort of time consuming project going on.



I'm the campground host at Three Rivers State Park, Florida (Lake Seminole).  I'll be going on break the end of November, for 3 months.  Hopefully I can spend some time on the forum then.

Life's great, living in the woods 24/7.
I've begun a Christian fellowship each Sunday morning.
Miss you guys,,,,, and gal.


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## formula1 (Nov 7, 2014)

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> I'm the campground host at Three Rivers State Park, Florida (Lake Seminole).  I'll be going on break the end of November, for 3 months.  Hopefully I can spend some time on the forum then.
> 
> Life's great, living in the woods 24/7.
> I've begun a Christian fellowship each Sunday morning.
> Miss you guys,,,,, and gal.



Hey that's awesome.  My wife and I plan on doing something similar but we got 7 years to go before we can.  I hope you find that you are able to change lives for Christ 'outside the doors'.  God Bless!


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## hummerpoo (Nov 9, 2014)

“If we just have the Spirit, without the law, we will be directionless.  The Spirit works through the law so that we come to understand the character and the will of God.  The law is the revelation of the character of God.”

Having no desire to become involved in a long conversation, I did not respond to the OP’s primary question when I first read it. 




hobbs27 said:


> "Legalism" Does it seem to be a growing movement to anyone else?



It seems nearer the opposite to me.



ryanh487 said:


> There is a distinct difference between obedience and legalism.  Legalism says "if I do these things, I will EARN salvation".  Obedience says "Because God has granted me grace for my past mistakes, I will lovingly obey Him in all things because I have died and Christ lives in me."
> 
> Salvation is a narrow path with a ditch on either side--legalism on one, and the idea that grace means a free pass to sin on the other.  Faith is dead without works, but works are dead without faith.



That other ditch, which Ryan describes, has traditionally been titled antinomianism.  While few would describe themselves with the traditional name of a widely acknowledged heresy, either legalism or antinomianism, we regularly hear the tenets of both in doctrinal exposition.  But, it seems to me that the “growing”, as indicated by the frequency and enthusiasm with which it is espoused, is toward the ditch in which the law is not to be found.
I believe the “narrow path” can be found in near proximity of the underlined quote above, which is from the sermon I heard while visiting a church last Sunday; I went back today to continue the series.  Context can be found at:
http://www.gracejc.org/media.php?pageID=23
in the sermon titled “On Eagles Wings”.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 9, 2014)

Without getting too technical in how I would describe my salvation. I would say my "salvation" was from dying an eternal death for my sins. I was actually saved from the curse of sin by the blood of Jesus.
I would describe it as "freedom." 
It's as if a yoke has been lifted off of me and I can breath a sigh of relief. My burden was lifted. 

I tried salvation the other way and it never felt right. I kept placing the yoke back around my own neck. The same yoke Jesus had removed. I call the new way "the Gospel."


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## Huntinfool (Nov 21, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> the Old Covenant laws are still prevalent today disguised in New Covenant commandments.



I'll be honest and just state up front that I haven't read through the whole thread.  But I did just want to point out that, in a sense, he's right.

When Jesus was asked what the most important commandment was his answer was the bumper sticker you see on every other christian driven car on the highway..."Love God, Love Others".

We quote it all the time.  Love the Lord your God with all your heart..and love you neighbor as yourself.

Then he says this (and it's very important):  "On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

He did not, in any way, suggest that what he just said is most important did away with the Law or that the Law was not good.  In fact, he summed up the Law in the two commands.  Love God....Love Others.

God is good.  He creates nothing that is not good.  His Law was and is still good.  It is not done away with.  But we are no longer under it for possibility of salvation.  God's Law is good and always has been.  I suspect that your friend would almost say that we have to follow it in order to be saved....which is wrong.  We follow it because we are saved and we want to honor, glorify and obey our King.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 21, 2014)

Huntinfool said:


> I'll be honest and just state up front that I haven't read through the whole thread.  But I did just want to point out that, in a sense, he's right.
> 
> When Jesus was asked what the most important commandment was his answer was the bumper sticker you see on every other christian driven car on the highway..."Love God, Love Others".
> 
> ...



Amen.

In fact, Jesus QUOTED the old testament when he said to love God (Deuteronomy 6:5) and Love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18).

The first 4 commandments are a summary of what it is to love God with all your heart, body, and mind.  The last 6 are a summary of loving your neighbor.  The spirit of the law extends beyond the simple summary in the 10 commandments, like Jesus said, lust is adultery and hate is murder, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep the spirit of the law without also keeping the letter.  You can keep the letter without keeping the spirit--the Pharisees did this-- but not the other way around.  

You can not, for example, love your neighbor as yourself while you murder him or sleep with his wife.  You can, however, smile at him and be a murderer in your heart because you hate him, and never lay a hand on his wife but be an adulterer because you lust after her.


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