# Man killed trying to declare Jesus.



## Artfuldodger (Nov 22, 2018)

An American man who was killed by an isolated tribe on a remote Indian island wrote to his parents hours before his death that he wanted to “declare Jesus” to the tribes people and that they should “not be angry at them or at God if I get killed”. 

John Allen Chau, 26, is believed to have been hit with a volley of arrows shortly after making land on North Sentinel Island, part of the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, last Friday.

The island, which is off-limits to visitors without permission, is home to a 30,000-year-old tribe that is known to aggressively resist outsiders.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-by-tribe-north-sentinel-island-declare-jesus


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 22, 2018)

He knew the dangers before he went but his calling from God was to do this. His faith was that strong.

He said;
“Please do not be angry at them or at God if I get killed. Rather, please live your lives in obedience to whatever he has called you to and I’ll see you again when you pass through the veil."

“This is not a pointless thing. The eternal lives of this tribe is at hand and I can’t wait to see them around the throne of God worshipping in their own language, as Revelations 7:9-10 states.”


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## bullethead (Nov 22, 2018)

30,000 year old tribe.
Older than a 7,000 year old God.
Words vs Arrows.


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## bullethead (Nov 22, 2018)

That clown went to the island totally ignoring warnings not to and breaking laws that forbid outsiders going to the island. 
He went anyway.
He got shot on Nov.15th and kayaked back out to the fishing boat, then WENT BACK to island on the 16th.
His body was last seen being drug across the beach by the islanders by the crew of the fishing vessel that took him to within a couple hundred yards of shore and repeatedly warned him not to go to the island. He went by kayak again anyway.

It is totally a pointless and muderous thing....on HIS end!! He can introduce western diseases and sicknesses that could wipe the tribe out.

I would love to have that tribe work security down at the border.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 22, 2018)

I think it follows our discussions on who is telling us to do things, God, Satan, or our own inner minds. 
Maybe God was telling him to go there. He did have that conviction. 

It's a shame he couldn't have got permission or witnessed to them some other way.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> 30,000 year old tribe.
> Older than a 7,000 year old God.
> Words vs Arrows.



They may have been there 50,000 years. They have no genetic immunity to many common viruses like influenza.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 22, 2018)

Usual story: Tribe is living happily and peacefully in the jungle, like they have for thousands of years. 

Missionary arrives to "civilize" them and tell them about Jesus.

Five years later: Most tribal members are living in slum of nearest city, mix of alcoholics and prostitutes. They're wearing Achy-Breaky Heart t-shirts and 70s gym shorts. Tribal culture is broken. Nobody happy any more.

Leave them alone. They're doing fine like they are. They don't need Jesus.


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## bullethead (Nov 22, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think it follows our discussions on who is telling us to do things, God, Satan, or our own inner minds.
> Maybe God was telling him to go there. He did have that conviction.
> 
> It's a shame he couldn't have got permission or witnessed to them some other way.


If I was a bettin man, my money would be on our own inner minds every single time.

The shame is that he he knows that he has zero business being there, zero permission to be there, warned repeatedly to not go there, and went anyway.


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## Spotlite (Nov 22, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> Usual story: Tribe is living happily and peacefully in the jungle, like they have for thousands of years.
> 
> Missionary arrives to "civilize" them and tell them about Jesus.
> 
> ...


They may or may not want Jesus......how they’re approached and introduced in order for them to decide if they need him or not is the element that  “missionaries” need to get ironed out. Having a calling to go, and God’s Will to go combined with the correct timing and manner will produce results. Getting the cart before the horse always goes wrong. Every missionary I ever met that was successful had one concept in common - “when God opens the door, go”.

When you’re told to not come, the door isn’t open, yet.


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## bullethead (Nov 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> They may or may not want Jesus......how they’re approached and introduced in order for them to decide if they need him or not is the element that  “missionaries” need to get ironed out. Having a calling to go, and God’s Will to go combined with the correct timing and manner will produce results. Getting the cart before the horse always goes wrong. Every missionary I ever met that was successful had one concept in common - “when God opens the door, go”.
> 
> When you’re told to not come, the door isn’t open, yet.


If Jesus and his capabilities were true, would another human outside of the tribe EVER have set foot on that island in order to have them know about Jesus, accept Jesus, and become Christians?


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## Spotlite (Nov 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> If Jesus and his capabilities were true, would another human outside of the tribe EVER have set foot on that island in order to have them know about Jesus, accept Jesus, and become Christians?


Someone going, going ahead of their time, or not going at all isn’t a reflection of Jesus and his capabilities. 

He instructed us to go into all the world. He also said the Gospel will be preached in all the world. He also said he would open doors.

He will either send a willing vessel when the door is open or raise one up on that island.


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## bullethead (Nov 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Someone going, going ahead of their time, or not going at all isn’t a reflection of Jesus and his capabilities.
> 
> He instructed us to go into all the world. He also said the Gospel will be preached in all the world. He also said he would open doors.
> 
> He will either send a willing vessel when the door is open or raise one up on that island.


50,000 years and counting.......

He instructed?
Suuuurre


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## Spotlite (Nov 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> 50,000 years and counting.......
> 
> He instructed?
> Suuuurre


50,000 years according to who? 

Even if they’ve been there 50,000, or 100,000 years, it’s only been around 7,000 (give or take) when he said “go ye the therefore into all the world”


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 22, 2018)

Does anybody know if he could even speak the native language?


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 22, 2018)

Crazy to see the responses.... If God had sent him..... then he would not have been killed with arrows. Seriously, Would God fail to get the message through?


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## Spotlite (Nov 22, 2018)

That’s sort of been the point with “Gods abilities” getting questioned ......and man getting his cart before the horse........looks like the man got himself into to the situation, and it was no reflection of Gods abilities.


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## bullethead (Nov 22, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> 50,000 years according to who?
> 
> Even if they’ve been there 50,000, or 100,000 years, it’s only been around 7,000 (give or take) when he said “go ye the therefore into all the world”


Well sometimes I forget which Xtian I am talking to.
Some say the world is only 7000 years old.
Some say "modern" humans are 7000 years old.
Some say God only started to communicate with human 7000(give or take) years ago.
Some say is was meant for him to be killed doing that.

I still don't know who really said what and when or even if it was said at all.

God/Jesus doesn't sound like a "ye" man. I guess if the bible were rewritten today God would use hashtags and emojis.


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## Spotlite (Nov 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Well sometimes I forget which Xtian I am talking to.
> Some say the world is only 7000 years old.
> Some say "modern" humans are 7000 years old.
> Some say God only started to communicate with human 7000(give or take) years ago.
> ...


The age of the world or mankind wasn’t in question.

What was questioned was Jesus instructing to go into all the world.  

Even you acknowledge the life of Jesus about 7,000 years ago. That’s why I said even if the islanders have been there for 50,000 years, it was only about 7,000 since the command was given.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> If Jesus and his capabilities were true, would another human outside of the tribe EVER have set foot on that island in order to have them know about Jesus, accept Jesus, and become Christians?



Maybe that is the answer. God himself will open some of there eyes and lead them to Jesus. I'd hate to think their salvation is dependent upon man.

Where this man failed, God will succeed. If they are part of the tribe of every nation, they will be called.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 22, 2018)

I don't think there are any in the grave that haven't been reached by the Holy Spirit. Even 50,000 years ago. Unless they were, at that time, without hope, without God, and strangers to the commonwealth of Israel.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 22, 2018)

Although I am skeptical..... It's not that I don't believe God could use him. I just expect that it was all man. He could.... come back to life, that would freak them out. But, I'm not expecting this. Just clarifying that I am not implying with my skepticism that God "can't"


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## Spotlite (Nov 22, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Although I am skeptical..... It's not that I don't believe God could use him. I just expect that it was all man. He could.... come back to life, that would freak them out. But, I'm not expecting this. Just clarifying that I am not implying with my skepticism that God "can't"


Totally agree!


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## ky55 (Nov 23, 2018)

The guy should be nominated for a Darwin Award.


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## Israel (Nov 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> If I was a bettin man, my money would be on our own inner minds every single time.
> 
> The shame is that he he knows that he has zero business being there, zero permission to be there, warned repeatedly to not go there, and went anyway.



Who's gonna put on their mining hats for this?




> The shame is that he he knows that he has zero business being there, zero permission to be there, warned repeatedly to not go there, and went anyway.



Does that estate exist?


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## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> The age of the world or mankind wasn’t in question.
> 
> What was questioned was Jesus instructing to go into all the world.
> 
> Even you acknowledge the life of Jesus about 7,000 years ago. That’s why I said even if the islanders have been there for 50,000 years, it was only about 7,000 since the command was given.


The guy Jesus is based off of was born about 2,018 years ago and died about 1,985 years ago. 
The instructions given by the writers of the bible are in question.
And the age of the world is certainly in question. The length of time that tribe has existed is at least 8 to 9 times longer than many Christians believe the Earth is old.
The tribes very existence proves that line of thinking wrong, but they continue on ignoring the facts in place of what they need to be true.


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## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe that is the answer. God himself will open some of there eyes and lead them to Jesus. I'd hate to think their salvation is dependent upon man.
> 
> Where this man failed, God will succeed. If they are part of the tribe of every nation, they will be called.


Again, 50,000 years and counting.
This line of thought that it just hasnt happened yet isn't accurate or convincing.


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## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't think there are any in the grave that haven't been reached by the Holy Spirit. Even 50,000 years ago. Unless they were, at that time, without hope, without God, and strangers to the commonwealth of Israel.


If that is what helps you sleep at night....


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## hummerpoo (Nov 23, 2018)

Israel said:


> Who's gonna put on their mining hats for this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If so, it would surely be the quintessence of contingency.


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## Spotlite (Nov 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> The guy Jesus is based off of was born about 2,018 years ago and died about 1,985 years ago.
> The instructions given by the writers of the bible are in question.
> And the age of the world is certainly in question. The length of time that tribe has existed is at least 8 to 9 times longer than many Christians believe the Earth is old.
> The tribes very existence proves that line of thinking wrong, but they continue on ignoring the facts in place of what they need to be true.


Wow dang I blew that one lol. Yes, 2,000. Not sure why I typed a 7 instead of a 2 but I did. Maybe I did have the mindset of thinking about a 7000 year old earth when posting. 

My only point was even if the tribe was there long before Jesus was here.........the comment of “50,000 years and counting was irrelevant” - man was created before Jesus was sent to earth. 

Age of earth can and will continue to be in question. I have no dog in that fight. It could be older than 10,000 years, but I don’t believe it’s millions. Even if it’s millions, it changes what? It certainly does not make creationism invalid. 

And the tribe being there 50,000 based on ???? Is in no way proof to discredit creationism.


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## Israel (Nov 23, 2018)

Presumption has gotten the better of me so many times, I'm even tempted to think I've learned something about it. All I know is when I'm in it, I sure don't know it.

Who decides if this brother...failed?

A whole lot of folks...even on here are discussing things in result...not of his being killed...but someone mentioning his being killed. I once presumed there was an estate of being useless...talk about presumption!

Who "gives permission" to preach the gospel? For a man to "go" anywhere? To "do" anything?  Who receives it, and if so...from whom? Who gets to separate "daring" from conviction? Presumption from boldness?

This brother declared his knowing of what was allowed for in his going. If even (and only God knows) , in all presumption he went...who's gonna doubt the rubber met the road in his last moments? Ya ever been there? "have I gotten in over my head? have I come out to meet Goliath...only to find I really am alone? Have I "gone too far?" Lord...where are you...now...in this?"

But, that's just me. Appears I'm the man who needs to learn a lot about presumption. And I can't even determine where I am in the lesson, the very beginning, middle...toward an end? And who knows if all is to get a man so far "out on a limb"...that he can't tell presumption from leading...and it matters little, for only the Lord's appearing there...or anywhere...has ever mattered?


Agabus warned Paul. So? So what? Is there anything there? Paul could not be dissuaded. The brothers cried. Who knew what they thought? But we do know this,  they ended saying "Let the will of the Lord be done".

Oh, how we love to quote this!

Yea doubtless, and I count all things _but_ loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them _but_ dung, that I may win Christ,

If we love to quote it...do we then find ourselves speaking thus:

The people quarreled with Moses and said, “If only we had perished when our brothers fell dead before the LORD. Why have you brought the LORD’s assembly into this wilderness for us and our livestock to die here? Why have you led us up out of Egypt to bring us to this wretched place? It is not a place of grain, figs, vines, and pomegranates, and there is no water to drink!”

All I can confess to it is: "I know that man" and how he thinks and speaks.

Are we being presumptuous in quoting it? Do we still look to man to approve of how, and what, and when...we are "allowed"?

The world has adjudged a penalty for men it considers "too stupid to live here". To "be" here.

Is it ever worth anything to ask "Father, I know you know what I think liberty means...but what do you mean by it?"

What does salvation...look like?


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## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Wow dang I blew that one lol. Yes, 2,000. Not sure why I typed a 7 instead of a 2 but I did. Maybe I did have the mindset of thinking about a 7000 year old earth when posting.
> 
> My only point was even if the tribe was there long before Jesus was here.........the comment of “50,000 years and counting was irrelevant” - man was created before Jesus was sent to earth.
> 
> ...


Is Jesus not also God? Couldn't your God reach these people,  all people, before he recreated himself?  Lets not count the millions of years human ancestors were alive, Why did it take a god hundreds of thousands of years to  STILL not be able to contanct every human on Earth?

The only people who question the age of the earth are the ones who prefer fiction over fact because they need that incorrect information to go along with their beliefs. 

A few of you in here take the words of an ancient middle eastern tribe who were never a hundred miles from the spot they were born on as if they are experts on science and archeology, then you refute modern scientific data saying that it is not accurate.

I am going to put the shoe on the other foot now and ask you, What studies and research have you done in order to prove that the Earth is not one day older than 10,000 years, let alone 4.5 BILLION years old????


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## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Wow dang I blew that one lol. Yes, 2,000. Not sure why I typed a 7 instead of a 2 but I did. Maybe I did have the mindset of thinking about a 7000 year old earth when posting.
> 
> My only point was even if the tribe was there long before Jesus was here.........the comment of “50,000 years and counting was irrelevant” - man was created before Jesus was sent to earth.
> 
> ...


Creationism has no credit anywhere except among creationists.


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## Spotlite (Nov 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Is Jesus not also God? Couldn't your God reach these people,  all people, before he recreated himself?  Lets not count the millions of years human ancestors were alive, Why did it take a god hundreds of thousands of years to  STILL not be able to contanct every human on Earth?
> 
> The only people who question the age of the earth are the ones who prefer fiction over fact because they need that incorrect information to go along with their beliefs.
> 
> ...


Yes he could can and will. 

Ive done the same amount as you, and that is simply nothing but reading what scientist say and falling somewhere between that and my gut feeling of what I think is right.

Those tribes saying they’ve been there for 50,000 years sounds alot more convincing and realistic than everything scientists put their hands on, which is always millions of years old. But I haven’t taken anyone’s word, I simply asked 50,000 years based on what? And if science did indeed have factual evidence.......just maybe the earth isn’t as old as scientists want it to be.


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## Israel (Nov 23, 2018)

Are we in this scenario...at all?

Who is "the" observer?
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Gotta love "sartre was right (you never heard of him)"

I recommend (am I even allowed? is it presumption? God knows) the most recent Joel and Ethan Coen offering on Netflix: "The Ballad of Buster Scruggs"...dem dere boyz got somethin' to say bout the human condition...don't really know if they know much bout being a man, though, after all..."I'm only an observer"...do I "see myself"...yet? LOL, how would I know? after all..."I'm only..."

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" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Yes he could can and will.
> 
> Ive done the same amount as you, and that is simply nothing but reading what scientist say and falling somewhere between that and my gut feeling of what I think is right.


Yes, No, Wait. 
Have you ever been to a museum?


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## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/15-answers-to-creationist/


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## Spotlite (Nov 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Yes, No, Wait.
> Have you ever been to a museum?


Of course. But before you go, my Granddad had a homemade knife that belonged to his Dad that was supposed to be 500 years old and there was a really cool write up story attached to it. in the box. It was in some type of trade with Indians. When the case got dropped and busted, the date on the knife was 1925.


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## Spotlite (Nov 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/15-answers-to-creationist/



Cool story ?
But before you get sidetracked, this is about instructions given to go into all the world a couple thousand years ago and you questioning those instructions concerning a 50,000 year old tribe. 

What’s the issue with the age of the earth?


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## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Of course. But before you go, my Granddad had a homemade knife that belonged to his Dad that was supposed to be 500 years old and there was a really cool write up story attached to it. in the box. It was in some type of trade with Indians. When the case got dropped and busted, the date on the knife was 1925.


Just an educated guess here, but I think had that knife been given to a scientist for study, the date on the knife would have been found in about 45 seconds.
They dont take anyones word for it until something gets dropped


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## Israel (Nov 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Cool story ?
> But before you get sidetracked, this is about instructions given to go into all the world a couple thousand years ago and you questioning those instructions concerning a 50,000 year old tribe.
> 
> What’s the issue with the age of the earth?



"Go into all the world with the gospel" is a really wonderful gift...but is it given to "help" the world...(Hi, I'm from Jesus Christ and I'm here to help...YOU!)...or is there a whole world inside every man...needing to be put in its place?

We learn the gospel by preaching the gospel.

And I am just a beginner. (and that may be hugest presumption of all)

Only God knows if I have even "started"...


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## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Cool story ?
> But before you get sidetracked, this is about instructions given to go into all the world a couple thousand years ago and you questioning those instructions concerning a 50,000 year old tribe.
> 
> What’s the issue with the age of the earth?


In order to talk about one thing,  most often many other subjects must be addressed to establish whether or not the initial subject is even valid enough to be discussed at all.

If it is established that the tribe is 50,000 years old, it would show that the Earth is at least 5 times older than you say it is.


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## Spotlite (Nov 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Just an educated guess here, but I think had that knife been given to a scientist for study, the date on the knife would have been found in about 45 seconds.
> They dont take anyones word for it until something gets dropped


I’m only pointing out that everything that’s passed off as is, really isn’t. The foundation of science is assumption, if it wasn’t, then things wouldn’t change when something gets dropped.


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## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I’m only pointing out that everything that’s passed off as is, really isn’t. The foundation of science is assumption, if it wasn’t, then things wouldn’t change when something gets dropped.


You blatently pass off what science actually is in order to reaffirn your own beliefs instead of facts.

You didn't read the "cool story", it explains exactly why your statement above is false.


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## Bobby Linton (Nov 23, 2018)

Just another version of "suicide by cop".  He wanted to die.  That's what he got.


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## Spotlite (Nov 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> In order to talk about one thing,  most often many other subjects must be addressed to establish whether or not the initial subject is even valid enough to be discussed at all.
> 
> If it is established that the tribe is 50,000 years old, it would show that the Earth is at least 5 times older than you say it is.



I agree, but the earths age and the commandment to go into all the world preaching have no reflection of Gods abilities nor does it prove the 7000 year old age, nor disproves the millions of years age arguments.

It is a known fact that humans walked this planet before Jesus was sent here on his mission. 

Could God have reached everyone without sending Jesus or any messeger? Yes, but his plan was to send someone. 

All will be reached somehow. When the end of time is reached and someone raises their hand and says “we never heard”, then we can say you failed to reach them.


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## Spotlite (Nov 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> You blatently pass off what science actually is in order to reaffirn your own beliefs instead of facts.
> 
> You didn't read the "cool story", it explains exactly why your statement above is false.



I don’t blatantly pass off anything. Scientists go with the flow until the flow changes.


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## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I agree, but the earths age and the commandment to go into all the world preaching have no reflection of Gods abilities nor does it prove the 7000 year old age, nor disproves the millions of years age arguments.
> 
> It is a known fact that humans walked this planet before Jesus was sent here on his mission.
> 
> ...


Assertive Statement Credit=0


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## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I don’t blatantly pass off anything.


It explains why you are wrong.
And yet you continue on


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## Spotlite (Nov 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Assertive Statement Credit=0


Be more specific.


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## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Be more specific.


Jesus was sent here on his mission. 

Could God have reached everyone without sending Jesus or any messeger? Yes, but his plan was to send someone. 

All will be reached somehow. When the end of time is reached and someone raises their hand and says “we never heard”, then we can say you failed to reach them.


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## Spotlite (Nov 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> It explains why you are wrong.
> And yet you continue on



Continue on about??? I could care less about the age of the earth. What does the earths age change in relation to your questioning Gods abilities?


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## Spotlite (Nov 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Jesus was sent here on his mission.
> 
> Could God have reached everyone without sending Jesus or any messeger? Yes, but his plan was to send someone.
> 
> All will be reached somehow. When the end of time is reached and someone raises their hand and says “we never heard”, then we can say you failed to reach them.



Oh, so you want to argue if God is real or not lol. Ok 

For some reason, I thought we were discussing instructions to reach the lost and how those instructions given after the existence of man proved that God was incapable.


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## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Continue on about??? I could care less about the age of the earth. What does the earths age change in relation to your questioning Gods abilities?


Again, I am challening Gods existence, not pretending it exists in order to talk about the abilities.

If the Earth is older than the bible eludes it is,  and the tribe is in existence for longer than the bible says people existed then the problem is with the contents and information contained in the bible. If the comtents are not accurate, truthful, inerrant, and false.....all the rest you try to pass off as God coukd do this, God will do that, god is getting around to doing this....is all just wishful thinking based off of your needs, not facts.


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## Israel (Nov 23, 2018)

Bobby Linton said:


> Just another version of "suicide by cop".  He wanted to die.  That's what he got.



Or "He was so convinced of life a thing like the prospect of death could not deter him from living."


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## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Oh, so you want to argue if God is real or not lol. Ok
> 
> For some reason, I thought we were discussing instructions to reach the lost and how those instructions given after the existence of man proved that God was incapable.


Why talk about the speed at which Mighty Mouse can fly if Mighty Mouse does not exist?

There is not a shred of proof That the whacked out wanna be gospel preacher went to that island for any other reason than he believed the writings that are in the bible.
There is no GOD to talk about until someone like you inserts that a god did this or a god wanted that to happen. 

Some goof with a death wish got himself killed and could kill the entire tribe by introducing germs and things that the tribe has no immunity against JUST because he wanted to sing Jesus songs and blad some verses.

He is a jerk.


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## Bobby Linton (Nov 23, 2018)

Israel said:


> Or "He was so convinced of life a thing like the prospect of death could not deter him from living."


That's the same logic suicide bombers use.


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## Israel (Nov 23, 2018)

It's almost kinda funny...a thing called "life" which we believe we all have, and therefore do, and speak and think..."in it", and while we do...we also perceive a thing called death...but really know nothing of it ourselves, to ourselves, (_no understanding_) so far...it's all only ever happened to "others". Yet we think we know something about it.

Life is like that. Allows for the perception of, yet may well occur completely apart from any understanding at all of thing. How then would "life" be any different...a thing able to be perceived...but without any understanding.


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## Israel (Nov 23, 2018)

Bobby Linton said:


> That's the same logic suicide bombers use.


How would you know this?


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## Bobby Linton (Nov 23, 2018)

Israel said:


> How would you know this?


I would rather the fellow got some therapy and lived to see Thanksgiving with his family.  I belive he was suicidal and in need of help.  If you think God is asking you to die for him, please get help.  Ask you preacher for guidance.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 23, 2018)

Israel said:


> How would you know this?


They will tell you. They are so convinced of the wishes of their god that they are willing to die and kill you too in order to force you to believe the same thing they do. I see the parallel.


----------



## Spotlite (Nov 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Again, I am challening Gods existence, not pretending it exists in order to talk about the abilities.
> 
> If the Earth is older than the bible eludes it is,  and the tribe is in existence for longer than the bible says people existed then the problem is with the contents and information contained in the bible. If the comtents are not accurate, truthful, inerrant, and false.....all the rest you try to pass off as God coukd do this, God will do that, god is getting around to doing this....is all just wishful thinking based off of your needs, not facts.


Ok, fair angle, show us the age of the earth according to the Bible.


----------



## Spotlite (Nov 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Why talk about the speed at which Mighty Mouse can fly if Mighty Mouse does not exist?
> 
> There is not a shred of proof That the whacked out wanna be gospel preacher went to that island for any other reason than he believed the writings that are in the bible.
> There is no GOD to talk about until someone like you inserts that a god did this or a god wanted that to happen.
> ...



Back up and read this thread again and count how many of us agreed with the man going there. You’re fabricating a claim in order to argue the existence / non existence of a supreme being. I didn’t inset God as his reason going, I said if it was God, the door would have been open. You seemed to like another post that said basically the same thing, leads me to believe that you simply can’t accept us Christians not supporting this mans behavior. 

If the writings are the foundation of your argument, let’s pull every book imaginable off the shelves. I mean, really, how many have straight up mudered folks and used some law / code section to justify their actions?

It’s hypocritically ironic at how some use science to label people with a disorder to explain their negative behaviors, but anything related to Christianity is resulted by writings of men.


----------



## Spotlite (Nov 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> There is no GOD to talk about until someone like you inserts that a god did this or a god wanted that to happen. .


While you’re reviewing this thread again, see post #3.


----------



## Israel (Nov 23, 2018)

Bobby Linton said:


> I would rather the fellow got some therapy and lived to see Thanksgiving with his family.  I belive he was suicidal and in need of help.  If you think God is asking you to die for him, please get help.  Ask you preacher for guidance.





NCHillbilly said:


> They will tell you. They are so convinced of the wishes of their god that they are willing to die and kill you too in order to force you to believe the same thing they do. I see the parallel.


 OK


----------



## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Ok, fair angle, show us the age of the earth according to the Bible.


Creationism Dot com has it all


----------



## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> While you’re reviewing this thread again, see post #3.


I read post #3 and then post #45 is telling me about God sending the guy...


----------



## bullethead (Nov 23, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Back up and read this thread again and count how many of us agreed with the man going there. You’re fabricating a claim in order to argue the existence / non existence of a supreme being. I didn’t inset God as his reason going, I said if it was God, the door would have been open. You seemed to like another post that said basically the same thing, leads me to believe that you simply can’t accept us Christians not supporting this mans behavior.
> 
> If the writings are the foundation of your argument, let’s pull every book imaginable off the shelves. I mean, really, how many have straight up mudered folks and used some law / code section to justify their actions?
> 
> It’s hypocritically ironic at how some use science to label people with a disorder to explain their negative behaviors, but anything related to Christianity is resulted by writings of men.


Post #45. YOU say god sent the man.


----------



## Spotlite (Nov 23, 2018)

Post 45



Spotlite said:


> It is a known fact that humans walked this planet before Jesus was sent here on his mission.
> 
> Could God have reached everyone without sending Jesus or any messeger? Yes, but his plan was to send someone.





bullethead said:


> Post #45. YOU say god sent the man.


Nope. You’re really stretching for the straw on this one bullet. 

Read it again.

I did not say God sent that man to the tribe. The only reason God got  involved is you threw him in the ring and then questioned his capabilities.


----------



## Spotlite (Nov 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Creationism Dot com has it all


Lol ok. But bullet is so sure of the answer though. Gotcha.


----------



## redwards (Nov 23, 2018)

The simple truth is...none of us can offer anything other than our opinion(s).

How many of you were even alive on Jan 8, 1956 when five missionaries were killed, deep in the jungles of Ecuador, by "a group of Ecuadorian indigenous people considered violent and dangerous to outsiders"?
I was, and I remember hearing doubts as to the wisdom of such a venture.

Foolish in man's judgement...but in God's wisdom...Transformation of a tribe!

Just follow these links, or do your own search to see how God has transformed a tribe of "savages"...

Link #1

Link #2

Link #3


----------



## WaltL1 (Nov 24, 2018)

redwards said:


> The simple truth is...none of us can offer anything other than our opinion(s).
> 
> How many of you were even alive on Jan 8, 1956 when five missionaries were killed, deep in the jungles of Ecuador, by "a group of Ecuadorian indigenous people considered violent and dangerous to outsiders"?
> I was, and I remember hearing doubts as to the wisdom of such a venture.
> ...





> Foolish in man's judgement...but in God's wisdom...Transformation of a tribe!


Yes, lets all celebrate the"transformation of a tribe".
There's about a mountain of arrogance going on with that.
But hey, as long as its them getting transformed... its all good.


----------



## ky55 (Nov 24, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes, lets all celebrate the"transformation of a tribe".
> There's about a mountain of arrogance going on with that.
> But hey, as long as its them getting transformed... its all good.



I’m sure it’s hard to be humble when you’ve been chosen to do the work of a god.


----------



## Spotlite (Nov 24, 2018)

The point of Reds post is we don’t know what affect the situation of the OP will have in 50 years. 

This tribe killed 60% of their own when missionaries went. With no outside communication to the world, I find it hard to believe they knew much about “religion” or anything else other than their own, and probably killed 60% of their own anytime anyone went in.

If religion was the tool to open a peaceful door with these folks, then at least a peaceful door was opened. One of the killers visited the U.S. in the 90’s with the son of the man he killed.  Made humorous comments about American culture. That’s worth celebrating.

And it’s not hard to be humble at all, but it does seem hard to hide the hatred for something.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Nov 24, 2018)

redwards said:


> The simple truth is...none of us can offer anything other than our opinion(s).
> 
> How many of you were even alive on Jan 8, 1956 when five missionaries were killed, deep in the jungles of Ecuador, by "a group of Ecuadorian indigenous people considered violent and dangerous to outsiders"?
> I was, and I remember hearing doubts as to the wisdom of such a venture.
> ...


Who’s to say that they’re better off now because they act more like us? As for religion, I’d say that your average American “savage” back in the day was more seriously and devoutly religious than the typical European Christian who came over to subdue them. Those Hebrew tribes that are in the Bible were a pretty violent, bloodthisty lot, too-especially with other races.

I’m still on team heathen savage.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Nov 24, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> An American man who was killed by an isolated tribe on a remote Indian island wrote to his parents hours before his death that he wanted to “declare Jesus” to the tribes people and that they should “not be angry at them or at God if I get killed”.
> 
> John Allen Chau, 26, is believed to have been hit with a volley of arrows shortly after making land on North Sentinel Island, part of the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, last Friday.
> 
> ...



I heard about this story this week.  It


Artfuldodger said:


> An American man who was killed by an isolated tribe on a remote Indian island wrote to his parents hours before his death that he wanted to “declare Jesus” to the tribes people and that they should “not be angry at them or at God if I get killed”.
> 
> John Allen Chau, 26, is believed to have been hit with a volley of arrows shortly after making land on North Sentinel Island, part of the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, last Friday.
> 
> ...




I read about this story this week.  It's tragic.  That said, I thought of another story I had read about a missionary that was killed by a tribe he was trying to evangelize.  The book on it is called The End of the Spear and is available on Amazon and a number of other outlets.

It's an amazing, true story of how out of the tragedy of his father being speared trying to evangelize a tribe in South America, the son, who was 5 at the time of his fathers death, wound up succeeding in evangelizing the tribe and became brothers with the tribesman who had actually killed his father.  It's a great tale of the love and forgiveness that can only come through Christ, and stands as a glowing example of how Christ can take tragedy and produce a miracle.  I suggest everyone read it.  It's a book you won't forget.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Nov 24, 2018)

After reading through all the comments, most strike me as presumptuous.  This physical life we have, it's temporal.  I think we ALL agree on that.  As Christians, we are supposed to believe it's of no consequence.  It's the eternal that matters.  If that's truly what we believe, then while tragedy in our physical life does affect us, and yes, it's painful, it shouldn't cloud our outlook.  Given that, this young man fulfilled his calling, his pain is over with.  What more could be expected of him. Have we forgotten that Christianity is spread by the blood of martyrs.  Have we forgotten the words in Red that speak of he who wishes to save his life shall lose it and he who loses his life shall save it?   If only we could be so committed and thus blessed.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Nov 24, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I heard about this story this week.  It
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It’s always heartwarming when a people are forced to abandon their own culture and follow ours for their own good.


----------



## Spotlite (Nov 24, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> It’s always heartwarming when a people are forced to abandon their own culture and follow ours for their own good.


Who forced them to abandon anything and follow another culture? 

It said two became Christians. What’s heartwarming is a bond was created between a man and the man that killed his father. Wonder how many of his own tribal members would that man have killed if this had never happened. They killed 60% of their own. Y’all are so caught up with your hate for Christianity that you’ve lost sight of what humanity is.   

Funny that we are ok going to another country and “freeing” citizens of dictators in the name of govt.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Nov 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Who forced them to abandon anything and follow another culture?
> 
> It said two became Christians. What’s heartwarming is a bond was created between a man and the man that killed his father. Wonder how many of his own tribal members would that man have killed if this had never happened. They killed 60% of their own. Y’all are so caught up with your hate for Christianity that you’ve lost sight of what humanity is.
> 
> Funny that we are ok going to another country and “freeing” citizens of dictators in the name of govt.


I have no hate at all for Christianity. I am the son of a baptist preacher. No hate at all here, I just don’t think it’s an accurate worldview, nor the only way.

I have not much use  for organized religions of any sort, and think they were mainly contrived by man to control other men. I see religion as being a personal matter between each man and whatever he worships or holds reverence for.

I do believe in minding your own business. The main goal of Christianity to many Christians seems to be to coerce everyone on earth to believe as they do, and to loathe, pity, or condemn any who don’t. The same can be said for some other religions.

How many of our own have we killed in our perfect culture? Check out some statistics from our last little civil war, and from the world wars, mostly fought amongst Christians.


----------



## Bobby Linton (Nov 24, 2018)

The disturbing part to me is thinking people being ok with him doing this from a religious standpoint. I will say it again, if you think God is leading you to kill yourself or others, get help. Please.


----------



## someguyintraffic (Nov 24, 2018)

The good Lord gives you sense enough to not go and get yourself killed. That guy got what he asked for. He knew their history of attacking and killing outsiders and was chased away violently once already. Nothing but a dead fanatic now.


----------



## WaltL1 (Nov 24, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> After reading through all the comments, most strike me as presumptuous.  This physical life we have, it's temporal.  I think we ALL agree on that.  As Christians, we are supposed to believe it's of no consequence.  It's the eternal that matters.  If that's truly what we believe, then while tragedy in our physical life does affect us, and yes, it's painful, it shouldn't cloud our outlook.  Given that, this young man fulfilled his calling, his pain is over with.  What more could be expected of him. Have we forgotten that Christianity is spread by the blood of martyrs.  Have we forgotten the words in Red that speak of he who wishes to save his life shall lose it and he who loses his life shall save it?   If only we could be so committed and thus blessed.





> If only we could be so committed and thus blessed


The vast majority of Christians are too smart to be that committed.


----------



## someguyintraffic (Nov 24, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Crazy to see the responses.... If God had sent him..... then he would not have been killed with arrows. Seriously, Would God fail to get the message through?


Reminds me of that joke about the man on the roof waiting for God to save him in a flood, he turns away 2 boats and a helicopter, drowns, then asks God why didnt you save me when I called out to you? God responds I sent 2 boats and a chopper, did you need a handwritten invite?

God did all he could for this guy. Authorities said it was off limits, the fisherman who ferryed him out said dont go onshore and being hit by an arrow attack the first day didnt make the guy say to himself and God maybe I shouldnt do this then there was no saving him. Gotta have common sense before you can have faith. He could carry a disease onshore and kill them all. Im sure that would be what God wanted. Dead fanatic. End of story.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Nov 24, 2018)

I have a thought for you..... What if..... he was not intending to declare the real Jesus?  Hmmmm, would God have him stopped?


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Nov 24, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> After reading through all the comments, most strike me as presumptuous.  This physical life we have, it's temporal.  I think we ALL agree on that.  As Christians, we are supposed to believe it's of no consequence.  It's the eternal that matters.  If that's truly what we believe, then while tragedy in our physical life does affect us, and yes, it's painful, it shouldn't cloud our outlook.  Given that, this young man fulfilled his calling, his pain is over with.  What more could be expected of him. Have we forgotten that Christianity is spread by the blood of martyrs.  Have we forgotten the words in Red that speak of he who wishes to save his life shall lose it and he who loses his life shall save it?   If only we could be so committed and thus blessed.


Are you ready to go take his place and try again?


----------



## GeorgiaBob (Nov 24, 2018)

The isolated island, just west of the Andaman Islands and closer to Myanmar than India, that the foolish young man tried to invade, has been off limits throughout modern history.  Taken in the context of international law, the actions of the people of that island were not inappropriate.

The young man first attempted to land and was forced to retreat to a boat when island citizens fired a number of arrows in his general direction.  As the illegal alien (the so called, "missionary") was slow to leave, one of the island's defenders actually put a single arrow into something the invader was carrying (a waterproof Bible). That, plus a number of international laws prohibiting travel to that island, should have been enough for any intelligent person to determine that the island was off limits.

Apparently, John Allen Chau lacked the ability to recognize fatal danger, clearly stated law, or even the obvious desire of the citizens of what the west calls North Sentinel Island.  Though international law recognizes the island as part of India, India has NEVER exercised any authority over the island beyond ruling it "off limits."

In a very real world the people of that island are a sovereign country, and therefore fully capable of defining their border, defending their land, and prohibiting entry. Chau twice attempted illegal entry.  The first time Chau was rebuffed without injury - and we have no way of knowing whether his lack of injury on that first attempt was intentional or not.  We certainly do know that on the second attempt by Chau to illegally enter the country, the defenders, border patrol, army, or police (whatever you chose to call them) - were deadly serious about stopping Chau.  The only criminal act in this sad tale was committed by John Allen Chau.

The kid did wrong.  I don't care whether he fantasized about bringing Christ to the "heathens," or saving their souls.  He failed to use the brain God gave him, ignored many laws, and did a very stupid thing - twice!!!  I will pray for his soul, but I will not, can not, condemn the people of that island for protecting themselves.


----------



## someguyintraffic (Nov 24, 2018)

This wasnt faith or Gods work. This was free will. He chose to break the law of Indian officials and proceed to a restricted island, contact a violent tribe, threaten their mere existence with what germs he was carrying, and got a deadly prize for his efforts. Nothing more nothing less.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Nov 24, 2018)

I place him in the same category as the fool who went to Alaska because he hoped to open lines of communication between humans and our brothers the bears, bothered them to no end, and got ated up.


----------



## GunnSmokeer (Nov 24, 2018)

I suppose it's possible that God spoke to that young "missionary," and told him to go and let himself be killed by the unsaved savage tribe, for the purpose of paving the way for some future missionary trip by others to have success, and the story of their acceptance of Christianity will be all the more powerful and often-told with reverence and awe when it includes the fact that prior missionaries were murdered immediately upon arriving at that island.  

It's also possible that the young "missionary" was suicidal, and he knew full well that he was killing himself through the hands of others that he antagonized and provoked into doing that.  That would make the "missionary" delusional and his last act on earth a terrible sin. (But then we're all sinners.... I'm not saying there's anything special about that last sin being fatal to him.)


----------



## someguyintraffic (Nov 24, 2018)

Or maybe he wanted to be the next Jim Jones.


----------



## Israel (Nov 24, 2018)




----------



## someguyintraffic (Nov 24, 2018)

Israel said:


> View attachment 950652



No respect just like a delusional missionary that disobeyed laws, ignored warnings, and disrespected a tribe that gave fair warning they werent friendly?


----------



## someguyintraffic (Nov 24, 2018)

Yeah Im starting to think he wanted to be the next Jim Jones.


----------



## Israel (Nov 24, 2018)

someguyintraffic said:


> No respect just like a delusional missionary that disobeyed laws, ignored warnings, and disrespected a tribe that gave fair warning they werent friendly?



Ya mean kinda like Jesus? Yep dem religious vipers tried to sting him every chance they could.

“We have a law,” answered the Jews, “and according to that law He must die, because He declared Himself to be the Son of God.” 

Or maybe this fellow?

After we had been there several days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. Coming over to us, he took Paul’s belt,bound his own feet and hands, and said, “TheHoly Spirit says: ‘In this way the Jews ofJerusalem will bind the owner of this belt andhand him over to the Gentiles.’” When we heard this, we and the people there pleaded with Paul not to go up to Jerusalem...
Then Paul answered, “Why are you weeping and breaking my heart? I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.”

"Go into all the world"

um...well, we'd really like to, but um...these folks say those other folks is off limits, Lord. And besides...something might happen to us...


Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God’s sight to listen to you rather than God. For we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

Glad they couldn't stop. I don't think some are. Glad, at all.


----------



## Israel (Nov 24, 2018)

wait for it...

Glad yet...?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Nov 24, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> It’s always heartwarming when a people are forced to abandon their own culture and follow ours for their own good.



Forced???  Gimme a break.  At least read the book before you make this wrong assumption.  If you would, you would realize the tribe was on the brink of extinction due to it's cultural tradition of spearing anyone within the tribe that one disagreed with and the fact that they buried the whole family alive with the dead.  Yeah.  You read that right.  Noble savages huh?  There's much more.  You would probably like the book.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Nov 24, 2018)

Bobby Linton said:


> The disturbing part to me is thinking people being ok with him doing this from a religious standpoint. I will say it again, if you think God is leading you to kill yourself or others, get help. Please.




If you think that God leads people to that, get help.


----------



## ky55 (Nov 24, 2018)

someguyintraffic said:


> No respect just like a delusional missionary that disobeyed laws, ignored warnings, and disrespected a tribe that gave fair warning they werent friendly?



Yep, now he’s just another dead religious fanatic. 
Good riddance. 

He gets hero status in here because he died for the particular god that’s popular with the crowd.


----------



## ky55 (Nov 24, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If you think that God leads people to that, get help.



If you think a god “leads” anybody to anything, maybe you are the one who needs the help.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Nov 24, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Yep, now he’s just another dead religious fanatic.
> Good riddance.



Speaks volumes.


----------



## Spotlite (Nov 24, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> I have no hate at all for Christianity. I am the son of a baptist preacher. No hate at all here, I just don’t think it’s an accurate worldview, nor the only way.
> 
> I have not much use  for organized religions of any sort, and think they were mainly contrived by man to control other men. I see religion as being a personal matter between each man and whatever he worships or holds reverence for.
> 
> ...


I agree somewhat with minding our own business to an extent. Freedom from enslavery is a universal right that applies to every human. Maybe sometimes minding our own business helps keep folks enslaved. 

Yes we have killed our own folks (civil war) but we don’t make that a standard way of living. And, it’s easy to blame everything “mostly” among Christians when the majority of the population is Christian, and the majority of what’s not is lumped in as Christian by non believers. 

I’m sorry you have a negative misunderstanding about Christianity but that’s your opinion, and probably based on some “wantabe” or “lumped in” Christians and I’m ok with that. Our goal is not to coerce you, it’s simply to tell you one time. Coercing requires more than that. Non believers asking a Christian questions doesn’t mean the Christian is coercing them to convert. 

But back to your warm hearted comment, that was an attempt to divert the real “warm hearted” outcome of the story - at least for the sake of that son, there’s closure there. And for the tribeman that killed his father, some humanity has been found, and maybe for the rest of the tribe, a whole new world to explore. 

From a Christian that’s focusing on everything except two men converting to Christianity, the reality is most Christians are not what you just described.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Nov 24, 2018)

ky55 said:


> If you think a god “leads” anybody to anything, maybe you are the one who needs the help.



Evidently just the thought provokes you to bitterness.


----------



## ky55 (Nov 24, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Evidently just the thought provokes you to bitterness.



Actually, it provokes me to uncontrollable laughter-
But it’s also so absurd that the little face palm thing seemed appropriate too.


----------



## ky55 (Nov 24, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Speaks volumes.



It was intended to speak volumes.
Anybody who is so religiously delusional as to commit suicide is also a threat to others. It’s just fortunate that this guy took himself out without taking others with him.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Nov 24, 2018)

ky55 said:


> It was intended to speak volumes.
> Anybody who is so religiously delusional as to commit suicide is also a threat to others. It’s just fortunate that this guy took himself out without taking others with him.



Again, this speaks volumes.


----------



## Spotlite (Nov 24, 2018)

ky55 said:


> It was intended to speak volumes.
> Anybody who is so religiously delusional as to commit suicide is also a threat to others. It’s just fortunate that this guy took himself out without taking others with him.


His diary said he didn’t want to die and asked would it be wiser to return home. Doing what you feel is right regardless of the situation doesn’t classify as suicide.  

Unwise choices yes, but definitely not a suicide mission, and not a mission to take others with him.


----------



## Bobby Linton (Nov 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> His diary said he didn’t want to die and asked would it be wiser to return home. Doing what you feel is right regardless of the situation doesn’t classify as suicide.
> 
> Unwise choices yes, but definitely not a suicide mission, and not a mission to take others with him.


What if he brought the flu with him? It was worth the risk to his life, but he was risking there's.  Spotlight, I think you are a reasonable man, you can see that that was wrong?


----------



## Spotlite (Nov 24, 2018)

Bobby Linton said:


> What if he brought the flu with him? It was worth the risk to his life, but he was risking there's.  Spotlight, I think you are a reasonable man, you can see that that was wrong?


I’m not condoning what the man did at all. I said from the beginning that he got his cart before the horse. 

But to say he was on a suicide mission is a little extreme.

His elevator may or may not have went all the way to the top, but I don’t believe he had any ill intentions towards himself or others. I don’t even blame the others for protecting themselves from disease, but highly doubt that was their complete thought process.


----------



## Bobby Linton (Nov 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I’m not condoning what the man did at all. I said from the beginning that he got his cart before the horse.
> 
> But to say he was on a suicide mission is a little extreme.
> 
> His elevator may or may not have went all the way to the top, but I don’t believe he had any ill intentions towards himself or others. I don’t even blame the others for protecting themselves from disease, but highly doubt that was their complete thought process.


I can see that.  I regretted calling it suicidal afterwards, I'm sure that would be hurtful to his family. I have often wondered how we would handle a modern day Abraham and Isaac. Wish the outcome could have been different for his loved ones.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Nov 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I’m not condoning what the man did at all. I said from the beginning that he got his cart before the horse.
> 
> But to say he was on a suicide mission is a little extreme.
> 
> His elevator may or may not have went all the way to the top, but I don’t believe he had any ill intentions towards himself or others. I don’t even blame the others for protecting themselves from disease, but highly doubt that was their complete thought process.


The illness is that a Christian cannot stand the thought of anyone who doesn't embrace their doctrine.


----------



## Spotlite (Nov 24, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> The illness is that a Christian cannot stand the thought of anyone who doesn't embrace their doctrine.


No disrespect at all, but that’s completely fabricated and false.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Nov 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> No disrespect at all, but that’s completely fabricated and false.


Really? That is contrary to 51 years of my experience and observations.

I would not go to other nations and try to get them to see things the same way I do. I don't care what they believe. I grew up in a Missionary Baptist church, BTW. They cared deeply what other folks believed. And if it wasn't the same thing we did, then they were wrong and needed to be enlightened. Hence the whole job of missionaries. To correct other cultures' wrong beliefs.


----------



## Spotlite (Nov 24, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> Really? That is contrary to 51 years of my experience and observations.
> 
> I would not go to other nations and try to get them to see things the same way I do. I don't care what they believe. I grew up in a Missionary Baptist church, BTW. They cared deeply what other folks believed. And if it wasn't the same thing we did, then they were wrong and needed to be enlightened. Hence the whole job of missionaries. To correct other cultures' wrong beliefs.


Read Matthew 10 verse 14. Really. No, missionaries jobs are not to correct anything. Their only job is to take a message to a wiling listener. 

Caring about what folks believe, coercing as you said before, and the following post are separate things. Based on my 47 years of experience, I’m staying with it’s a fabricated statement and false. 

Edited to add: the lack of Christian support for the man going on what appears to be self motivated or at least in wrong timing and against the will of the tribe, doesn’t support your statement. However, it is fair to note that there are folks that do things their own way. It usually results as this one did. 


NCHillbilly said:


> The illness is that a Christian cannot stand the thought of anyone who doesn't embrace their doctrine.


----------



## Israel (Nov 24, 2018)

It's kind of interesting. It almost seems on the one side there's a trumpet being blown "Everyone leave everyone else alone" Don't go, don't approach...don't...move. Don't impart, don't seek to impart...don't say to impart. Arm's length, at least, in all things.

OK, that's an argument, regardless of the fact we have, none of us, ever experienced this in practice, personally, nor the history of the world.
We could say, nevertheless...even_ if never seen nor experienced_...it is a worthy goal...(should we care to view it that way)

"Everyone mind their own business" and "strictly". It would take a little thought, but not really a whole lot to understand the conundrum of it: "who gets to say this to anyone else?", because already in the saying...one is making an excursion in expression and an incursion to any hearer. One is "speaking to others".
Broadcast of will.
Too subtle?

The language of the spear and arrow are perhaps, not subtle. So, even if one does not speak another one's language...the spear and arrow will do the talking. Seems a primitive (depending upon view of course...and whether one considers that a loaded term) tribe speaks spear and arrow very well. Some, I perceive, even consider this a pretty eloquent "way" of the untouched, unpolluted, the natural, the purest form of man in essential form, to speak. Man speaks spear and arrow when in a "clean slate" of estate. "Let such be. It is_ good._" They would declare.

And here _we are,_ products of (whatever) education, cross pollination, millions of inseminations since birth (from within and without _our tribe_), thinking we are homogeneous enough (and better educated) in thought and purity of reason...to determine what "good" is! Not only now, for ourselves...but for _that tribe._

I been around long enough, (less than some of you, longer than others) to believe this: what launched them arrows, or those spears, rocks, or whatever was not some determined dedication to a philosophical notion of the sovereignty of every man...but hostility and fear. Some might even say "so what, they have it quite rightly!" Protect with death...what you think "yours". Bravo!

So, by command of "leaving them alone" (how many were raised on Star Trek's prime directive?) you've already "touched them" with your philosophy. For a people that might pride themselves on their benefit of education...of being "cross pollinated"...of living in a world of commerce and interchange (many many touting its presumptively obvious benefits!) it's a curious...stance. "I am enlightened!" (in product)...but..."leave them...alone"


(Maybe they'd wanna watch Star Trek, too!) Who'd know?

Let alone hear of Jesus Christ, or learn to read and/or write so they can read Bertrand Russell's "Why I am not a Christian" or "The God Delusion".

Curious. Sympathies lie where they lie.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 24, 2018)

Or, every time an outsider comes near that island, they chase them away and or kill them.
If one shows up at your door and says "tell me about Jesus, Star Trek and Bertram Russel..." then by all means...


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## Israel (Nov 24, 2018)

Spear and arrow have both declaration and  invitation _already_ in them.


----------



## someguyintraffic (Nov 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Read Matthew 10 verse 14. Really. No, missionaries jobs are not to correct anything. Their only job is to take a message to a wiling listener.
> 
> Caring about what folks believe, coercing as you said before, and the following post are separate things. Based on my 47 years of experience, I’m staying with it’s a fabricated statement and false.
> 
> Edited to add: the lack of Christian support for the man going on what appears to be self motivated or at least in wrong timing and against the will of the tribe, doesn’t support your statement. However, it is fair to note that there are folks that do things their own way. It usually results as this one did.



You just said it " willing listener "
Tribesmen slinging arrows at you then dragging your corpse up and down the beach dont seem like willing listeners do they? The guy is dead because he was foolish and his aspirations exceeded his common sense. Period.


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## someguyintraffic (Nov 24, 2018)

Israel said:


> It's kind of interesting. It almost seems on the one side there's a trumpet being blown "Everyone leave everyone else alone" Don't go, don't approach...don't...move. Don't impart, don't seek to impart...don't say to impart. Arm's length, at least, in all things.
> 
> OK, that's an argument, regardless of the fact we have, none of us, ever experienced this in practice, personally, nor the history of the world.
> We could say, nevertheless...even_ if never seen nor experienced_...it is a worthy goal...(should we care to view it that way)
> ...


Im sorry, but what a bunch of hogwash.

Those people have survived for millenia without a missionary converting them to mans religion. They are probably more spirtually connected to their creator or God than any of us here. Unincumbered by modern mans morals and shame. They should remain as they are.


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## Spotlite (Nov 24, 2018)

someguyintraffic said:


> You just said it " willing listener "
> Tribesmen slinging arrows at you then dragging your corpse up and down the beach dont seem like willing listeners do they? The guy is dead because he was foolish and his aspirations exceeded his common sense. Period.



I believe that’s the direction most of us have taken and summed it up with????

During that process some non believers have cow trailed on faulting Christianity, God, Missionaries.......even to the point of fabricating that “he’s a hero in here”......

That’s why it was important to point out that their hatred and disdain for religion caused them to blame it on everything except the man himself.

I’m not really sure how it is assumed that we are taking up for the fellas actions, maybe y’all could quote the post and explain that???


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## someguyintraffic (Nov 24, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I believe that’s the direction most of us have taken and summed it up with????
> 
> During that process some non believers have cow trailed on faulting Christianity, God, Missionaries.......even to the point of fabricating that “he’s a hero in here”......
> 
> ...



Im not blaming* or claiming anything by anybody* here. Only one at fault is the dead kid for being a fool. There are plenty of willing listeners that dont inhabit desolate islands and kill indiscriminately unwelcomed guests.

Sounds like a case of ego got me dead. Go witness and pray to the ones on the desolate island of drug addiction living on the streets of America if you are moved to missionary work.


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## Israel (Nov 24, 2018)

someguyintraffic said:


> Im sorry, but what a bunch of hogwash.
> 
> Those people have survived for millenia without a missionary converting them to mans religion. They are probably more spirtually connected to their creator or God than any of us here. Unincumbered by modern mans morals and shame. They should remain as they are.


OK, but you argue from "without" (not them) as one subject to the things you say. Morals and shame.
Eat where you care.

There is no "modern" man...only man.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 25, 2018)

Israel said:


> There is no "modern" man...only man.



Yep, since we killed off all those heathen Neandertals who dared to worship the moon while we worshiped the sun, which was the only true god.


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## Israel (Nov 25, 2018)

Cro Magnon: "How many Neanderthals does it take to paint a cave...?"


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## Spotlite (Nov 25, 2018)

Brother David said:


> As Christian's we are lead by the Great Commission , and we should continue to share the Gospel . Notice the careful use of SHARE , not force


Yup!! 

I get what NCHB is saying about “correcting”  those that believe differently because there are a few out there with that mentality, but they’re out of line and not following what you just posted. When they do that, I’m convinced they’re representing themselves and not God or Christianity.


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## GeorgiaBob (Nov 25, 2018)

Brother David said:


> One thing we should be able to agree upon is that all life is precious and valuable , and we shouldn't belittle anyone who is standing up for what he/she believes . When we belittle anyone it makes us all look small !



The human soul is precious, life - no so much.

When Jesus walked from northern Judah to Jerusalem, NO civilization on the planet "valued" human life in the modern context, especially the lives of children.  When food was short, children ate LAST and only if there was enough left.  That was true for every culture encountered and documented by the growing Roman empire.  It was true of Asian culture of the same period.

A thousand years later, it was still true.  Europe's people were called to send all their "second sons" to join the Crusades, and they did! Royalty, wealthy, poor, and surf - they all shipped off their sons (except the firstborn) to fight in a foreign war - knowing that few would return. The Islamic realm was just as uncaring about human lives.  The draft, on both sides, was only stopped when plagues were killing enough to keep population in check!

The greatest sin committed by the gentrified people of the last 75 years is that we have grown to value continuing the heartbeat of everyone (except preborn) regardless of quality of life, value to society, or moral value.  The truth is; all people are created equal, but everyone is personally responsible for what they do with their creation.  Truth is, when someone does something very foolish it is a sin NOT to point out their foolishness!


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## Israel (Nov 25, 2018)

"For mos' folks the idea of Heaven is jes where the dumber are extremely tolerated by the wiser. Even to such extreme of toleration as to have a vague hope of happiness. And, that's why mos' folks hang on to this life with a death grip...here they think they get to be smart."
James "Dimmy" Baker, "Partners at the Great Divide"


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## Israel (Nov 25, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> Really? That is contrary to 51 years of my experience and observations.
> 
> I would not go to other nations and try to get them to see things the same way I do. I don't care what they believe. I grew up in a Missionary Baptist church, BTW. They cared deeply what other folks believed. And if it wasn't the same thing we did, then they were wrong and needed to be enlightened. Hence the whole job of missionaries. To correct other cultures' wrong beliefs.



Did they send dem missionaries to the episcopalians down the block? Dem catholics, presbyterians, methodists,  and even dem "non" missionary baptists?
Did they learn to speak primitive baptist to better communicate? Seems they mighta saved a whole lotta sheckels, and been less wearied in bake sales, and taking up collections for airfares and the like.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 25, 2018)

Israel said:


> Did they send dem missionaries to the episcopalians down the block? Dem catholics, presbyterians, methodists,  and even dem "non" missionary baptists?
> Did they learn to speak primitive baptist to better communicate? Seems they mighta saved a whole lotta sheckels, and been less wearied in bake sales, and taking up collections for airfares and the like.


The Catholics were beyond redemption, as they drunk wine, worshiped idols and tried to pray folks out of He!l.  Not many Catholics, Episcopalians, and such here back in the mountains anyways. Just Baptists, Methodists, who were pretty much just alcoholic Baptists, and the snake-handling holy-roller "paragraph churches."

*Paragraph church: one of those little white churches back in the woods on a gravel road that had a whole paragraph for the name on the sign, like "Mount of Olives Church of Jesus Christ the Redeemer Who Came to Earth to Die for Our Sins Pentecostal Reptilian Tabernacle of the Living Lord."


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## Israel (Nov 25, 2018)

GeorgiaBob said:


> The human soul is precious, life - no so much.
> 
> When Jesus walked from northern Judah to Jerusalem, NO civilization on the planet "valued" human life in the modern context, especially the lives of children.  When food was short, children ate LAST and only if there was enough left.  That was true for every culture encountered and documented by the growing Roman empire.  It was true of Asian culture of the same period.
> 
> ...




yep.

Don't know if that young fella can hear ya. Or even much cares to. Cause someone else sure do.


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## Israel (Nov 25, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> The Catholics were beyond redemption, as they drunk wine, worshiped idols and tried to pray folks out of He!l.  Not many Catholics, Episcopalians, and such here back in the mountains anyways. Just Baptists, Methodists, who were pretty much just alcoholic Baptists, and the snake-handling holy-roller "paragraph churches."
> 
> *Paragraph church: one of those little white churches back in the woods on a gravel road that had a whole paragraph for the name on the sign, like "Mount of Olives Church of Jesus Christ the Redeemer Who Came to Earth to Die for Our Sins Pentecostal Reptilian Tabernacle of the Living Lord."




Well, I can't fault em for that...they's tryin' to get all their doctrine out there all at once...a thing with which I am neither unfamiliar nor for which I am not unrightly called into question.  Truth be told, if'n I never got poked...I'd never know what I believe.

And likewise...if'n that young man needed that hisself, I hope to meet him, soon. Cause we is kin.


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## Spotlite (Nov 25, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> The Catholics were beyond redemption, as they drunk wine, worshiped idols and tried to pray folks out of He!l.  Not many Catholics, Episcopalians, and such here back in the mountains anyways. Just Baptists, Methodists, who were pretty much just alcoholic Baptists, and the snake-handling holy-roller "paragraph churches."
> 
> *Paragraph church: one of those little white churches back in the woods on a gravel road that had a whole paragraph for the name on the sign, like "Mount of Olives Church of Jesus Christ the Redeemer Who Came to Earth to Die for Our Sins Pentecostal Reptilian Tabernacle of the Living Lord."


And you related that to .....

Lol J/K


----------



## GeorgiaBob (Nov 25, 2018)

Brother David said:


> Christ valued life , ask Lazarus !
> 
> Almost all of his miracles where to restore the life of the healed. I am the way, the truth and the life !
> 
> ...




Well, we can agree to disagree.

I disagree with your interpretation of the Bible.  The Christ raised his friend Lazarus at the request of Lazarus' sisters, as a "sign" that He was truly the Messiah.  It was not that the continued existence of Lazarus human body was precious, but instead that the relationship between Lazarus and his sisters, and the relationship between the three and Christ was important (personally and theologically). Therefore, your relationship with the Christ is also important.

The miracle healings, included in the Gospels, were to demonstrate the power and divinity of the Messiah and to point toward healed relationships with God.  The people "healed" were among the outcasts of society. The healing was a restoration of the individual into acceptance.  These people were not dead, they were excluded. The message of the Gospel writers is about rejoining (or "restoring" a relationship with God (also known as being made whole).  Jesus was, by His existence, His acts, His grace, the way to live, the truth of our presence in this world, and the (example of how to live this) life.

"Saving of the soul" is about turning away from sin ("repent" literally means turn around) and it is about learning to focus on being in a right relationship with the Lord.  Neither requires a long life, or even values life over that relationship with God.

That "glorified body" you reference has nothing to do with people walking around on this land. - - - Except, Jesus referred to the Kingdom, and a new life, very often.  A careful reading of the Greek, and a few fragments of the same scriptures that have been found in Egypt and the Middle East in either Aramaic or 2nd century Egyptian, shows that Jesus was NOT talking about a fuzzy "Heaven" some where else at some later time.  Jesus spoke to the crowds about what could be their life "right now, right here" if they were to accept God's grace, repent (turn their lives around), and sin no more (the Greek word used for "sin" actually meant to "miss the mark" as an archer who shoots and misses a target).  Literally, Heaven (in Jesus' words) is living in a perfect relationship with God here and now.

So, in fact, Jesus spoke about life changing commitment, not a future "glorified body."  God does NOT care how long you live, how tall you grow, how fast you run, or even what color your skin or hair. What is precious to God is your relationship with Him. That relationship is manifest in what we DO, not what we think or even how long we live.

"Suffer the little children to come unto me."  That's an early 17th century translation of the Greek, and adequate for its' time.  Jesus responded to people attempting to keep the kids at a distance by asking that the kids be allowed to hear what he had to say.  It implies that what Jesus had to say was for everyone, but did not grant special grace to children.  It was remarkable in the first century, because children were NOT valued by society - including Hebrew society.  It was still remarkable in the 17th century - for the same reason!

And - -  I can go on and on.


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## bullethead (Nov 25, 2018)

Please do go on GB.


----------



## Israel (Nov 26, 2018)

Bobby Linton said:


> I can see that.  I regretted calling it suicidal afterwards, I'm sure that would be hurtful to his family. I have often wondered how we would handle a modern day Abraham and Isaac. Wish the outcome could have been different for his loved ones.





someguyintraffic said:


> Im not blaming* or claiming anything by anybody* here. Only one at fault is the dead kid for being a fool. There are plenty of willing listeners that dont inhabit desolate islands and kill indiscriminately unwelcomed guests.
> 
> Sounds like a case of ego got me dead. Go witness and pray to the ones on the desolate island of drug addiction living on the streets of America if you are moved to missionary work.



A man may begin to see that what he may have previously only known as his labors, his strivings toward, his seeking to know (which he thinks previously is taking place in himself, from himself, of himself) has never been so. A veil may be parted. A man may begin to see he stands much on the prayers of a sister in a little village in Africa, or China, or a homeless man somewhere in this world...who knows they only stand by Christ Himself, prayers uttered two decades ago, two thousand years ago on his behalf as the needy in Christ, is what is causing him to seek after God's Kingdom. 

Someone _asked for him._

To himself the man believes "I do this", until he knows. 

A man may have no idea how much ministry of grace takes place 



> on the desolate island of drug addiction living on the streets of America



by one willing to leave all of _that place _of _seeming_ promise of comfort and security to appear as one putting all at risk in some far away place, because he doesn't really believe in risk, at all.

What has been done for us "elsewhere", in both another time and place, is all that ministers grace to any.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Nov 26, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yep, since we killed off all those heathen Neandertals who dared to worship the moon while we worshiped the sun, which was the only true god.



You know.  This kind of stuff just reinforces my conclusion that not only do Atheist have no grounding in reality, they have no use for it at all.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Nov 26, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You know.  This kind of stuff just reinforces my conclusion that not only do Atheist have no grounding in reality, they have no use for it at all.


I am not an atheist. And don't even go there about a grounding in reality. That is irony of the highest order.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2018)

Police say they may not be able to retrieve his body.


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## bullethead (Nov 26, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Police say they may not be able to retrieve his body.


If he gets reanimated, like happened to few in the bible, and walks off that beach and flags down a chopper then I'll be impressed.
What better a show of the powers of the Lord than breathing life back into a young follower who is trying to spread his word????
Chances of that happening? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?


----------



## Spotlite (Nov 26, 2018)

bullethead said:


> If he gets reanimated, like happened to few in the bible, and walks off that beach and flags down a chopper then I'll be impressed.
> What better a show of the powers of the Lord than breathing life back into a young follower who is trying to spread his word????
> Chances of that happening? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?


A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign....

Leave religion out of the picture just for a second, do you honestly think that anyone jumping on board of anything just for the lights and show will be doing it for the right reason?? 

I know the rich guys get hot chicks but........


----------



## bullethead (Nov 26, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign....
> 
> Leave religion out of the picture just for a second, do you honestly think that anyone jumping on board of anything just for the lights and show will be doing it for the right reason??
> 
> I know the rich guys get hot chicks but........


Neither of us know what his true intentions were.

But all I can say is, pray for him


----------



## Spotlite (Nov 26, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Neither of us know what his true intentions were.
> 
> But all I can say is, pray for him


That is true.

To answer your question concerning raising the man from the dead, I don’t see it happening. Using my previous post as my reasoning.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Nov 26, 2018)

Some folks think they are Napolean. Bruce thinks he is Kaitlyn. Some folks think they can talk to bears. Some folks think God tells them to convert the heathens.


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## Spotlite (Nov 26, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> Some folks think they are Napolean. Bruce thinks he is Kaitlyn. Some folks think they can talk to bears. Some folks think God tells them to convert the heathens.


That I agree with! At least you didn’t blame “folks” issues on religion like some folks do.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Nov 26, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> That I agree with! At least you didn’t blame “folks” issues on religion like some folks do.


Religion can be a great thing, or a horrible thing. It has done much good, and also much evil over the years.


----------



## 4HAND (Nov 26, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> Some folks think they are Napolean. Bruce thinks he is Kaitlyn. Some folks think they can talk to bears. Some folks think God tells them to convert the heathens.



And some folks think there is no God & belittle folks that know God is real.

Some folks think they "evolved" from a frog or monkey.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 26, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> That I agree with! At least you didn’t blame “folks” issues on religion like some folks do.





> In photos obtained by ABC News of the final journal entries by John Allen Chau before his death, he writes to his family, telling them, "You guys might think I'm crazy in all this, but I think it's worth it to declare Jesus to these people."
> The 26-year-old missionary and graduate of Oral Roberts University, a Christian university in Tulsa, Oklahoma, makes evident by some of his final writings that he knew the dangers he was undertaking.
> "The islanders saw that and blocked my exit," he wrote, discussing the first time he ran across tribal members. "One blocked (unarmed) while other (armed with knife)."
> 
> ...



If not religion Spotlite.....what??.????
How does he differ from many in here other than he tried to back up his words with actions instead of a keyboard?


----------



## bullethead (Nov 26, 2018)

4HAND said:


> And some folks think there is no God & belittle folks that know God is real.
> 
> Some folks think they "evolved" from a frog or monkey.


Examples...please


----------



## 4HAND (Nov 26, 2018)

ky55 said:


> I’m sure it’s hard to be humble when you’ve been chosen to do the work of a god.





ky55 said:


> Yep, now he’s just another dead religious fanatic.
> Good riddance.
> 
> He gets hero status in here because he died for the particular god that’s popular with the crowd.





ky55 said:


> If you think a god “leads” anybody to anything, maybe you are the one who needs the help.





NCHillbilly said:


> The illness is that a Christian cannot stand the thought of anyone who doesn't embrace their doctrine.





NCHillbilly said:


> The Catholics were beyond redemption, as they drunk wine, worshiped idols and tried to pray folks out of He!l.  Not many Catholics, Episcopalians, and such here back in the mountains anyways. Just Baptists, Methodists, who were pretty much just alcoholic Baptists, and the snake-handling holy-roller "paragraph churches."
> 
> *Paragraph church: one of those little white churches back in the woods on a gravel road that had a whole paragraph for the name on the sign, like "Mount of Olives Church of Jesus Christ the Redeemer Who Came to Earth to Die for Our Sins Pentecostal Reptilian Tabernacle of the Living Lord."





bullethead said:


> Please do go on GB.





bullethead said:


> If he gets reanimated, like happened to few in the bible, and walks off that beach and flags down a chopper then I'll be impressed.
> What better a show of the powers of the Lord than breathing life back into a young follower who is trying to spread his word????
> Chances of that happening? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?


----------



## bullethead (Nov 26, 2018)

May not be polite but hardly inaccurate.

How is me asking Georgia Bob to continue "wrong" in your eyes? He was interesting and informative.

And, if Jesus brings this guy back to life I am an instant convert. Is that offensive to you?

What is your take on the Muslims and other religious people who know their god is real? Are they just as legitimate? 

I totally missed the guys claiming that they evolved from frogs and monkeys.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Nov 26, 2018)

4HAND said:


> And some folks think there is no God & belittle folks that know God is real.
> 
> Some folks think they "evolved" from a frog or monkey.


I can't say whether or not there is a God. I tend to believe that there is a higher power of some sort out there. I do not pretend to have a personal relationship with it, to be able to understand it, or know what it wants of us.

I am not belittling anyone. But I have been belittled, shunned, and demonized by my own people after I decided that I no longer believed the hardshell Baptist doctrine.

I can see evolution in action. The evidence supports it. It does not support talking snakes.


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## 4HAND (Nov 26, 2018)

Y'all have a good evening.


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## Spotlite (Nov 26, 2018)

bullethead said:


> If not religion Spotlite.....what??.????
> How does he differ from many in here other than he tried to back up his words with actions instead of a keyboard?


Ever think of “self”?


----------



## bullethead (Nov 26, 2018)

4HAND said:


> Y'all have a good evening.


Exactly.

Is it too much to ask of you to explain yourself and back up claims that you purposely made a point to make and post?

You'd rather leave than answer honestly.


----------



## 4HAND (Nov 26, 2018)

What's to explain? You asked for examples. I gave examples.
I see no reason to continue arguing or debating.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 26, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Ever think of “self”?


I think of his own words which include the reasons for him doing what he did.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 26, 2018)

4HAND said:


> What's to explain? You asked for examples. I gave examples.
> I see no reason to continue arguing or debating.


Who said that they evolved from frogs or monkeys?
How is me asking Georgie Bob to continue an example of what you claimed?

Is your God capable of raising Chau from the dead?
If something like that would convince someone like me to become a believer in God, how exactly is that a bad thing?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2018)

4HAND said:


> And some folks think there is no God & belittle folks that know God is real.
> 
> Some folks think they "evolved" from a frog or monkey.



I think it's easy to feel offended. I see it from both sides. I see it in some of your examples as well.

The thing about evolution kinda offended me as I am a Christian who does believe in evolution. Made it seem like folks like me are strange for believing in evolution.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Ever think of “self”?



What makes you think he did it for "self" instead of thinking he had a calling?


----------



## Spotlite (Nov 26, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I think of his own words which include the reasons for him doing what he did.


I get that, but that doesn’t mean he is correct in his reasons.


----------



## Spotlite (Nov 26, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> What makes you think he did it for "self" instead of thinking he had a calling?


Just saying there’s more to consider than just blaming it on him, religion, or anything else.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 26, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I get that, but that doesn’t mean he is correct in his reasons.


My GAWD Spotlite!!!! You sound like...like...gasp! "US"!!!!!

Welcome to the dark side. 

Hopefully you can see why "we" say the things we do sometimes.

How is it he might be incorrect in his calling/experiences/reasons but you are not? I don't even want an answer,  just food for thought.


----------



## 4HAND (Nov 26, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think it's easy to feel offended. I see it from both sides. I see it in some of your examples as well.
> 
> The thing about evloution kinda offended me as I am a Christian who does believe in evolution. Made it seem like folks like me are strange for believing in evolution.



Well, I did stick my nose in here. ??


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2018)

Knowing that this life is temporal as mentioned earlier, the missionary believed the part of Christianity that lies beyond this life.

I can't say that he did the right thing by my standards. Maybe his faith is stronger than mine. Like someone having faith in God not to go to a doctor. Maybe he believed his days were numbered and that was the day for him. People believe all sorts of things about God and religion.

His temporal body is resting. His spiritual body is elsewhere. He has renewed.


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## bullethead (Nov 26, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Knowing that this life is temporal as mentioned earlier, the missionary believed the part of Christianity that lies beyond this life.
> 
> I can't say that he did the right thing by my standards. Maybe his faith is stronger than mine. Like someone having faith in God not to go to a doctor. Maybe he believed his days were numbered and that was the day for him. People believe all sorts of things about God and religion.
> 
> His temporal body is resting. His spiritual body is elsewhere. He has renewed.


Some see a nut, other see a marytr.
One? Both? Neither?


----------



## Spotlite (Nov 26, 2018)

bullethead said:


> My GAWD Spotlite!!!! You sound like...like...gasp! "US"!!!!!
> 
> Welcome to the dark side.
> 
> ...


Lol - but no I’m not on the dark side. 

For one, I have enough sense to know if I felt that God sent me to that island, he’d open that door. Them shooting at me would question that open door, they’re aint a day 2 part of the story.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2018)

4HAND said:


> Well, I did stick my nose in here. ??



I'm not saying you are guilty but some Christians do belittle Atheist for not believing. I guess when you believe in something as strongly as Jesus, it's easy to think the other side is crazy.

Go through some of these threads and read some of the rebuttals from both sides. Some can get very condescending. Sometimes it gets as bad as the Democrats vs the Republicans.


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## bullethead (Nov 26, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Lol - but no I’m not on the dark side.
> 
> For one, I have enough sense to know if I felt that God sent me to that island, he’d open that door. Them shooting at me would question that open door, they’re aint a day 2 part of the story.


Shot at him and hit the bible.
God saved him. 
As the guy, it is a sign to continue? Invincible by God's wishes?
Had day two he was accepted and converted them all in a month, I suspect it could be used as some sort of proof.
No?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Some see a nut, other see a marytr.
> One? Both? Neither?



I have mixed emotions. From a Christian perspective I see a martyr, from a human good old boy perspective I see a nut.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Shot at him and hit the bible.
> God saved him.
> As the guy, it is a sign to continue? Invincible by God's wishes?
> Had day two he was accepted and converted them all in a month, I suspect it could be used as some sort of proof.
> No?



Perhaps this story was to lead others to Christ and it was never God's will for the tribesmen to be part of the Elect. Maybe the calling went to the boatmen that took him there or the masses reading about his faith and courage. His willingness to leave this temporal world to go be with God.


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## bullethead (Nov 26, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Perhaps this story was to lead others to Christ and it was never God's will for the tribesmen to be part of the Elect. Maybe the calling went to the boatmen that took him there or the masses reading about his faith and courage. His willingness to leave this temporal world to go be with God.


Sure, it could be any one or combination of a thousand reasons or possibilities.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2018)

I'm reminded of some of the other mission work stories we've had on this forum. Kids coming up to their parents and saying God has called them to Africa or to Haiti.

Young mission workers died in a catastrophic earthquake while on a missionary trip to Haiti in 2010. At least one young girl was from Georgia.

I guess we could ask, why? Why would God have an earthquake do such as thing? Why can't God call his own Elect without humans telling them?
Perhaps he can and does. There could be dead Christians in the ground from a 1,000 years ago in the Americas.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Just saying there’s more to consider than just blaming it on him, religion, or anything else.



I'm not "blaming" religion but the missionary made it a religious reason by his mission and diary account of his reason.
He wasn't there to sell Amway, He wanted to save their souls from eternal death.

Earthquake, arrow, disease, tsunami, the dangers are just a part of a missionaries life that he is willing to accept. Protection isn't always a part of God's will.

One could also die preaching in the pulpit in the US or in a car on the way to Church. One could die at the hands of a nut while witnessing at a prison or contract a deadly bacteria at a hospital.

Maybe "self' is us putting limitations on ourselves. We all do it. Even if wee think God is calling us. We all have fears that are different from the next person. I'd rather go to the deepest jungle than the deepest inner city to witness. Just my fear.


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## Spotlite (Nov 26, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Shot at him and hit the bible.
> God saved him.
> As the guy, it is a sign to continue? Invincible by God's wishes?
> Had day two he was accepted and converted them all in a month, I suspect it could be used as some sort of proof.
> No?


If they’d opened the door and welcomed him back, I’d say yes it’s a sign to continue. Continuing to resist, I’d say its a sign that now is not the time. He may very well been perfectly in line with what he felt he was led to do, but off on his timing.

Even around here knocking doors, you have to have enough sense to know when they open the door or they’re still pushing back.


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## Spotlite (Nov 26, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not "blaming" religion but the missionary made it a religious reason by his mission and diary account of his reason.
> He wasn't there to sell Amway, He wanted to save their souls from eternal death.
> 
> Earthquake, arrow, disease, tsunami, the dangers are just a part of a missionaries life that he is willing to accept. Protection isn't always a part of God's will.
> ...


I’m good with that. I don’t know the reasons or where the fault lies, just considering all options without laying blame on one source.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 26, 2018)

4HAND said:


> Well, I did stick my nose in here. ??


BTW, the theory of evolution does not have people evolving from monkeys. Do a little research.


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## 4HAND (Nov 26, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> BTW, the theory of evolution does not have people evolving from monkeys. Do a little research.



Nah, I'm good.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2018)

Adam is is Israel. Creation is Israel.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

That is physical Israel. They knew God, not the Native Americans or Eskimo. They didn't know God. They didn't "exchange" worshiping God for that of idols. Israel did.

If the Eskimo or those tribal people "knew" God by his divine nature, we would not have to send messengers. They are not a part of "Creation."


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 26, 2018)

4HAND said:


> Nah, I'm good.



What about Natural Selection? If Natural Selection is true, why do we have green tree frogs and gray tree frogs? Why do White-tailed deer have differences depending on their habitat?  The Key deer in Florida are actually of the White-tailed deer species.

Adaptations? Mutations? If the little deer in Florida are White-tailed deer, why do we still have regular sized White-tailed deer?
If dogs evolved from wolves, why do we still have wolves?

If a rainbow can be described as a sign the earth will never be flooded again, why try to explain it as light refraction? Why even have science at all. If it's not from God and just man's way of trying to explain God.
Why go to a doctor? He is just using man's science to heal you.

Unless science is from the Great Scientist. I think it is. I believe God used and uses science to create and evolve his creation. Planets and stars are created by science and are ended by science. God's science. Our discovery. God's plan, our discovery. God's will.

The creation of a child, a dual explanation. The death of an elderly man from a heart attack, a dual explanation. Creation? Why only one explantion? A rainbow? Manna? The Ark of the Covenant?


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## bullethead (Nov 27, 2018)

4HAND said:


> Nah, I'm good.


Priceless....


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## Brother David (Nov 27, 2018)




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## 4HAND (Nov 27, 2018)

Thanks!


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## Spotlite (Nov 27, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Unless science is from the Great Scientist. I think it is. I believe God used and uses science to create and evolve his creation.



This is how I view it.


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## Israel (Nov 27, 2018)

Then said Agrippa unto Festus, This man might have been set at liberty, if he had not appealed unto Caesar. 

How little they knew of liberty.


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## Brother David (Nov 27, 2018)

How quickly we want to condemn someone for doing what they deeply believe is right ! Then we attach ourselves to forums and argue we are right !


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## bullethead (Nov 27, 2018)

Brother David said:


>


Islander and Chau???


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## Brother David (Nov 27, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Islander and Chau???



No try to have a discussion on creation , natural selection and evolution ! We have all decided everyone else is wrong . Let's stay on the topic , of the actions of one's on heart leading them into action .


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 27, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign....
> 
> Leave religion out of the picture just for a second, do you honestly think that anyone jumping on board of anything just for the lights and show will be doing it for the right reason??
> 
> I know the rich guys get hot chicks but........



Bingo.  There’s ample reason for any reasonable person to believe.  There were many in Christ’s days that witnessed the miracles first hand, but didn’t believe because to believe would have cost them.  No different today.  Penalty for both is the same.


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## 660griz (Dec 3, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> There were many in Christ’s days that witnessed the miracles first hand, but didn’t believe because to believe would have cost them.  No different today.  Penalty for both is the same.







"


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## Madman (Dec 3, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> Usual story: Tribe is living happily and peacefully in the jungle, like they have for thousands of years.




Ah yes. The noble savage.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 3, 2018)

Madman said:


> Ah yes. The noble savage.


Some of sure seem a lot happier than their converted brethren.


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## Madman (Dec 3, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> Some of sure seem a lot happier than their converted brethren.



A little research would show that the noble savage and the brutal savage are both figments of the western mind, but it does show they are usually ruled by a strong man, women and children, especially, are subject to abuse.  Power is usually held by force, until a 'stronger", strong man rises up.

To introduce Christ requires no cultural conversion.


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## ambush80 (Dec 3, 2018)

Madman said:


> A little research would show that the noble savage and the brutal savage are both figments of the western mind, but it does show they are usually ruled by a strong man, women and children, especially, are subject to abuse.  Power is usually held by force, until a 'stronger", strong man rises up.
> 
> To introduce Christ requires no cultural conversion.



I don't get the idea that primitive tribes should be left alone.  There are two main reasons that I think they should be introduced to modernity. The first is that if I apply a principle of mitigating unnecessary suffering, then providing them with modern medicines is a necessity.  The second is that there may be an individual in that tribe who might be able to help all of humanity in the case of a musical savant or a physics genius.

Also, the thought of the rest of the world advancing, maybe colonizing space while a stone age tribe exists seems impossible.  If not impossible it seems inhumane.  I don't know if that's right word but I feel like we're almost treating them like pets.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 4, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I don't get the idea that primitive tribes should be left alone.  There are two main reasons that I think they should be introduced to modernity. The first is that if I apply a principle of mitigating unnecessary suffering, then providing them with modern medicines is a necessity.  The second is that there may be an individual in that tribe who might be able to help all of humanity in the case of a musical savant or a physics genius.
> 
> Also, the thought of the rest of the world advancing, maybe colonizing space while a stone age tribe exists seems impossible.  If not impossible it seems inhumane.  I don't know if that's right word but I feel like we're almost treating them like pets.


I think we may be on opposite sides of the river on this one.
What do we as a modern society do?
Work 51 weeks a year so we can get away for a week with our cell phones off, go the beach or the mountains or wherever..... with express purpose of "getting away from it all".
Yet we think dragging them into what we want to get away from will be "good" for them. Mold them into what WE think life should be like.
I understand the medicine aspect. However there is also a flip side. Ya figure they have an opioid epidemic? Their kids are walking Ritalin zombies? Pop a pill if they are slightly sad today?
I think we would be better off if they dragged us into their world instead of vice versa.

I say leave them alone.


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## ambush80 (Dec 4, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I think we may be on opposite sides of the river on this one.
> What do we as a modern society do?
> Work 51 weeks a year so we can get away for a week with our cell phones off, go the beach or the mountains or wherever..... with express purpose of "getting away from it all".
> Yet we think dragging them into what we want to get away from will be "good" for them. Mold them into what WE think life should be like.
> ...



You don't want to go live like a stone age person.  Not many people do given the option.  Anyone can go do it if they want, yet a week or two of primitive camping is usually enough.  It's a fantasy of the "Noble Savage" that's being over romanticized.   

Everything has a benefit and cost.  Purposely withholding modern advancements from them is patronizing.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 4, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> You don't want to go live like a stone age person.  Not many people do given the option.  Anyone can go do it if they want, yet a week or two of primitive camping is usually enough.  It's a fantasy of the "Noble Savage" that's being over romanticized.
> 
> Everything has a benefit and cost.  Purposely withholding modern advancements from them is patronizing.


You are making my point. I/me/we don't want to live like a noble savage.
Therefore we are justified in domesticating them too?


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## ambush80 (Dec 4, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> You are making my point. I/me/we don't want to live like a noble savage.
> Therefore we are justified in domesticating them too?



You're not domesticating them.  They can stay like that if they want to.  Most tribal people enjoy some modernity and reject other parts of it.  They are shrinking in number as the younger generation rejects the old ways.  You're giving them choices that should be available to everybody.  Maybe sometimes some of them starve to death.  Maybe their starvation could have been easily prevented.  As I said before, if you're interested in minimizing unnecessary suffering then you help them.  If they don't want your help then that's something to consider.  

This has made me think about the term "unnecessary suffering".  Who judges what that is and how?


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## WaltL1 (Dec 4, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> You're not domesticating them.  They can stay like that if they want to.  Most tribal people enjoy some modernity and reject other parts of it.  They are shrinking in number as the younger generation rejects the old ways.  You're giving them choices that should be available to everybody.  Maybe sometimes some of them starve to death.  Maybe their starvation could have been easily prevented.  As I said before, if you're interested in minimizing unnecessary suffering then you help them.  If they don't want your help then that's something to consider.
> 
> This has made me think about the term "unnecessary suffering".  Who judges what that is and how?


I think you are going down a slippery slope.
The case can be made that Big Macs cause unnecessary suffering too. Easily preventable. Now what?
I completely understand your position on this and would agree in a lot of circumstances.
From a different angle -
Christians want to save us from unnecessary struggles....


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## ambush80 (Dec 5, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I think you are going down a slippery slope.
> The case can be made that Big Macs cause unnecessary suffering too. Easily preventable. Now what?
> I completely understand your position on this and would agree in a lot of circumstances.
> From a different angle -
> Christians want to save us from unnecessary struggles....



Which is why we like that they give charity to those in need.  We just don't like the proselytizing part.


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## Spotlite (Dec 5, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Which is why we like that they give charity to those in need.  We just don't like the proselytizing part.


Are you sure that just handing out religious information is the same as proselytizing?

I won a really cool Old Timer knife set and a $50 Bass Pro Shop card this week at a seminar. Both had business cards in the envelopes with their company brochures telling me what they offered. Would you have issues there?

In a sense both want my business, I guess the better question is are you ok with proselytizing everything except religion? Or is there that much of a difference in converting business and religion?

The act of doing either through handing out items with “call me” information has no real differences in the two.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 5, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> You don't want to go live like a stone age person.  Not many people do given the option.  Anyone can go do it if they want, yet a week or two of primitive camping is usually enough.  It's a fantasy of the "Noble Savage" that's being over romanticized.
> 
> Everything has a benefit and cost.  Purposely withholding modern advancements from them is patronizing.


I've done a good bit of living like a stone age person over the years. I would take it over living in an apartment in New York City any day, and twice on Sunday. Serious about that.


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## ambush80 (Dec 5, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Are you sure that just handing out religious information is the same as proselytizing?
> 
> I won a really cool Old Timer knife set and a $50 Bass Pro Shop card this week at a seminar. Both had business cards in the envelopes with their company brochures telling me what they offered. Would you have issues there?
> 
> ...



I don't really mind either practice but I don't like them either.  I don't mind advertising.  I don't like flyers on my windshield or on my front door knob.


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## ambush80 (Dec 5, 2018)

NCHillbilly said:


> I've done a good bit of living like a stone age person over the years. I would take it over living in an apartment in New York City any day, and twice on Sunday. Serious about that.



There's a spectrum there.  I lived in a tent for several months on and off in Montana as an apprentice guide, guide school student, and wrangler/guide. It was plush tent living but I wouldn't want to live like that all the time.


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## Spotlite (Dec 5, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I don't really mind either practice but I don't like them either.  I don't mind advertising.  I don't like flyers on my windshield or on my front door knob.


Same here. I usually avoid the tables sat up in front of Walmart taking up and passing out things.


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## bullethead (Dec 5, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> There's a spectrum there.  I lived in a tent for several months on and off in Montana as an apprentice guide, guide school student, and wrangler/guide. It was plush tent living but I wouldn't want to live like that all the time.


But if it is all you've ever known.....


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## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2018)

bullethead said:


> But if it is all you've ever known.....


Yes.
Who are we to say -
You should want a Lazy Boy.
You should want to get a pizza delivered.
You should want all these unnecessary comforts that you didn't know you wanted etc.
Even when it comes to medicine -
You should want a Flu shot. Without even knowing if the flu is a problem for them.
You should want a cure for small pox. Even though you don't get small pox unless we give it to you.
You should want to live to 100. Even though you will spend those additional years sitting in an old folks home not able to do the things that made your life so enjoyable.

Very slippery slope.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 5, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> There's a spectrum there.  I lived in a tent for several months on and off in Montana as an apprentice guide, guide school student, and wrangler/guide. It was plush tent living but I wouldn't want to live like that all the time.


Turn on the TV.
Tiny homes.
Living off the grid.
Alaska homesteading.
And on and on.
Seems like more and more folks are rejecting modernity and going "primitive"
Why?


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## ambush80 (Dec 5, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Turn on the TV.
> Tiny homes.
> Living off the grid.
> Alaska homesteading.
> ...




It's not that many people and they still want penicillin.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Dec 6, 2018)

Interesting. 

So a bunch of "godless heathens" killed a guy who encroached upon their world.

Kind of a muddy mess here. Some idiot gets himself killed while violating laws when he should have known better vs. "Hey, we really can't let these folks get away with straight up killing folks."

Is it even moral to let a known group of people live without access to modern technology, medicine, etc? Kind of like putting folks into a zoo or some kind of awful sociological experiment? 

What's their take on murder? To them they were defending their homeland against a foreign invader, I suppose. So, are they truly unaware of the outside world or do they simply choose not to be a part of it? 

If they were truly unaware of the outside world, I'll give them killing a Christian missionary or two. It's a hazard of the job.

Given that the fishing boat guys were clearly aware of their existence and aggressive nature, the same can be said of the folks living on the island. They are cleary aware that a society outside of theirs exists and has technology that they do not. 

So, do they want want the metal rain? Because stuff like this is what what brings the metal rain. (Not really, I get that no one is going to run an ARCLIGHT strike on a godforsaken tiny island in the Pacific Ocean to wipe out a tiny society)


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## Israel (Dec 6, 2018)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> Interesting.
> 
> So a bunch of "godless heathens" killed a guy who encroached upon their world.
> 
> ...



Ruby Ridge is stretching it a bit, I guess...but by how much?

How far does sovereignty stretch, and whose...is the question. And when is exception made...and to what extent in what circumstance?

Is India at fault...let's say...that in every other territory/area under their "sovereign" control...it would probably be a crime to shoot arrows into someone unarmed approaching...even what might be deemed "your property"...or beach. But here, as you say they exempt certain "citizens" (are they)...what is their status? For whatever purpose...a sociological experiment?

You're right in that it is a muddy mess.

Ole Buster Gonmember is one unruly and wild dude. Everybody knows it. He's got his fifty acres in the hills clearly marked "Trespassers will be shot and survivors shot again" He thinks he's a clever guy, son of the mountain men and the heir of the spirit of the minutemen. He thinks his signs are enough, but he's still gonna have to answer for the bodies found of two wayward hikers. It doesn't matter that _he thinks_ his castle doctrine extends over 2,000,000 square feet, at all.

Jesus ain't naive. Signs all over this earth proclaim we got our own thing happening,  "outsiders not welcome". With a sign beneath it "and we reserve to ourselves the right to determine what an outsider looks like...to us".


Some even think...this is "their" forum.
Though they didn't set it up, engineer it, develop any software in regard to it, or even title it. It's...cute.


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## Spotlite (Dec 6, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Turn on the TV.
> Tiny homes.
> Living off the grid.
> Alaska homesteading.
> ...


Not the only reason for all, but for me I would due to too much government policy and tax involved with modernization.


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## Israel (Dec 8, 2018)

“Sanity is not statistical.” 
― George Orwell, 1984


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