# Big bores and black powder guns



## city boy gone country (Sep 19, 2015)

Why are muzzle loaders big bore rifles ?  I've never seen or heard of a mz rifle in 30cal range or smaller that I am aware of. The smallest cal BP gun I've seen so far is the replica Colt navy 36 cal of course its not an mz. 
This is one of those topics that popped into my head during my last trip to the range. Just curious.


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## White Horse (Sep 19, 2015)

There are small bore muzzleloaders. I shoot a .32 caliber percussion rifle, and there were even smaller bores long ago in the "Golden Age." There are even conical bullets available for the .32.

Muzzleloaders for the most part were made with a rifling twist designed to shoot round balls. The only way to make a round ball bigger and heavier for bigger game back in the day was to increase its diameter. Some bores for large African game got very large. The famous African hunter Frederick Selous shot a four bore; that is, the ball his smoothbore percussion elephant gun shot weighed four balls to the pound. 

I used to have a percussion 12 bore (or gauge, means the same thing) smoothbore. It packed a punch with a load using a single round ball.


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## Whiteeagle (Sep 19, 2015)

The "modern" thing is that "bigger is better", so not many 30 - 36 cal rifles are being used now. I shoot a patched round ball in .50 cal for just Deer hunting, BUT, I use a .45 in prb for squirrel and deer if one presents while still hunting for the bushy tails. Thinking about a .32 barrel for my Kentucky long gun just for squirrels. Head shots and "barking" squirrels.......LOTS of fun, and no more damage than a .22 LR hollow point!!!


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## Clifton Hicks (Sep 19, 2015)

.32 and .36 caliber are actually fairly popular, at least in the custom flintlock world. Waaaaay back in the day, when some frontier folks may have been more concerned with powder and lead conservation than with stopping power, there were probably more smaller bore guns and rifles around. Of course the earliest rifles over in Germany were short barreled big bore weapons... that changed on the American frontier.

The smallest rifle I've ever seen was a flintlock made for a guy's grandson that was about .30 caliber so the boy could use 00 buckshot as rifle ammo.

They make all kinds.


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## Clifton Hicks (Sep 19, 2015)

Here's a nice .30 caliber flintlock:


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## White Horse (Sep 20, 2015)

Here's Fred Selous in 1875 with his four bore elephant gun, which was made by Hollis of Birmingham, England. The gun was wrapped in rawhide from the ear of an elephant to help hold it together under the huge charge of powder it took, 12 drams, behind a .91 caliber, one quarter pound lead ball.

Selous "A Hunter's Wanderings in Africa" and "African Nature Notes and Reminiscences" are classics of African travels and hunts.


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## stabow (Sep 22, 2015)

I think 62 cal as a large bore


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## stabow (Sep 22, 2015)

32 cal.


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## Supercracker (Sep 22, 2015)

Happiness is a double rifle in a caliber that starts with 7...

lol

Barrel tubes for an eventual 12 Bore double Rifle project. 
The ball is a 50 cal


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## Clifton Hicks (Sep 22, 2015)

Good Lord, you done lost yer Cracker mind.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 22, 2015)

city boy gone country said:


> Why are muzzle loaders big bore rifles ?  I've never seen or heard of a mz rifle in 30cal range or smaller that I am aware of. The smallest cal BP gun I've seen so far is the replica Colt navy 36 cal of course its not an mz.
> This is one of those topics that popped into my head during my last trip to the range. Just curious.



They are mostly in bigger bores because black powder doesn't produce the velocity that smokeless does. You couldn't get enough velocity on a small-caliber bullet to make it a viable big game round. You have to reach a kinetic energy compromise between velocity and bullet weight. As others said, .32 and .36 BP rifles used to be quite popular, but they were squirrel guns, pretty much the equivalent of a .22 nowadays.


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## Clifton Hicks (Sep 23, 2015)

NCHillbilly said:


> They are mostly in bigger bores because black powder doesn't produce the velocity that smokeless does. You couldn't get enough velocity on a small-caliber bullet to make it a viable big game round...



Amen ^^^ this answers it plainly.

My understanding is that our old black powder burns much slower than modern powder, so, you can only pack so much powder behind a .30 ball because only so much will be able to burn up before it exits the muzzle.

Hence the big long barrels and smaller calibers on the early frontier. In Germany, they commonly used .50 and .60 rifles with short barrels; in early Pennsylvania they started reducing the calibers and lengthening the barrels. The idea, I think, being that the longer barrel allowed more powder to actually burn up behind a smaller ball, thus conserving powder and lead while maintaining fairly hot ballistics.


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