# Why is sanctification process so sloooooow?



## BeenHuntn (Oct 4, 2009)

Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

i just dont understand why the process of sanctification seems to be so slow...  why cant we go from being worldly sinners to being "perfect" as Christ was perfect and quickly?


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 4, 2009)

Righteousness is instant. Sanctification is a process. Holiness is the end result. 

"You cannot microwave a Christian." God uses troubles, trials, battles and tribulations so that you will learn to seek him and be closer to him/more like him. 
Notice Jesus says to be perfect AFTER he explains the things you can do that will help you to be like the Father. 

Romans 5:
 1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 

   2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 

   3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 

   4And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 

   5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 

   6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.


1 Peter:
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 

   4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 

   5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 

   6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 

   7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 

   8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 

   9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 4, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
> 
> 2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth
> 
> i just dont understand why the process of sanctification seems to be so slow...  why cant we go from being worldly sinners to being "perfect" as Christ was perfect and quickly?




We will never be perfect, that's what the blood is for.
If we ourselves could become sanctified by doing ANYTHING, Jesus would't have had to die on the cross.
Quit worrying about being perfect. Strive to be perfect, that's our mark,  but we will never hit the mark until we are before the judgement seat and Jesus says hey he's/she's covered. Praise be to the Lamb of God that paid for our sins.


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## Lowjack (Oct 4, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> We will never be perfect, that's what the blood is for.
> If we ourselves could become sanctified by doing ANYTHING, Jesus would't have had to die on the cross.
> Quit worrying about being perfect. Strive to be perfect, that's our mark,  but we will never hit the mark until we are before the judgement seat and Jesus says hey he's/she's covered. Praise be to the Lamb of God that paid for our sins.



Right On Momma, Nothing to add to that.


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## farmasis (Oct 4, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Right On Momma, Nothing to add to that.


 

Wait, I thought you no longer had any sin in your life.


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## christianhunter (Oct 4, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> We will never be perfect, that's what the blood is for.
> If we ourselves could become sanctified by doing ANYTHING, Jesus would't have had to die on the cross.
> Quit worrying about being perfect. Strive to be perfect, that's our mark,  but we will never hit the mark until we are before the judgement seat and Jesus says hey he's/she's covered. Praise be to the Lamb of God that paid for our sins.



Amen Sis.


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## 1john4:4 (Oct 4, 2009)

Look up Oswald Chambers, Feburary 8. Instantaneous and Insistent Sanctification... "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly" 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24... I don't know if you read his devotional but he has 21 days devoted to this subject. Hope this helps.


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## Lowjack (Oct 5, 2009)

WHAT IS SANCTIFICATION? 

Sanctification (Gk: hagiasmos) means literally “making holy”. It also means “consecration” or “setting apart” something for a special holy purpose. 

In the Christian life, sanctification has two parts - God’s part and ours. In many things in the Christian life God is playing the major role - and yet we have our part to do also - which is to respond in faith and obedience to what God is saying. 

In sanctification, our part is to offer to God our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1) - in fact to consciously offer our whole spirit, soul and body completely to God so that we devote ourselves to forever do His will and not our own. Our sanctification cannot be complete than the sincerity and the understanding with which we make this dedication to God. 

God’s part in our sanctification is to actually change us by the operation of His blood, His Word and His Spirit. We are sanctified by God’s grace - his unmerited favour working in our hearts and lives. We have to trust God to work in us. He is the One who produces godly character in us, the fruit of the Spirit and the ability to overcome sin consistently. 

Sanctification can also be defined as: “possessing the mind of Christ, and all the mind of Christ.” God wants us to allow our minds to be renewed (Romans 12:2). Our thinking and attitudes must change if we are to grow in God (Ephesians 4:23). Many of our thinking patterns, values and priorities have been shaped by the world system and not by God. We must relearn many things. “We have the mind of Christ” legally (1 Corinthians 2:16). But to actually think Christ’s thoughts and allow Him to rule our behaviour we will need to submit to the work of the Holy Spirit so as to appropriate our inheritance in this area. 

Sanctification also relates to emotional healing, or a changed heart. God wants remove all negative attitudes of despair, fear and rejection from us and give us a hopeful, joyful, faith-filled attitude. He wants to remove all bitterness and resentment from us. A person who is hurt or bitter needs to receive God’s grace so he or she can truly forgive those who have caused the hurt, and get free of every root of bitterness. Wrong heart attitudes such as pride, envy, impatience, resentment, rejection, selfishness, rebellion, independence and so on are the fruit of an unsanctified heart. A full sanctification in God will remove these wrong heart attitudes from us. Sometimes the term “inner healing” is used in relation to the sanctification of the emotions and memories in our soul. 

Santification and holiness also means the development of the fruit of the Holy Spirit, and other qualities of godly character. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such there is no law.” (Galatians 5:23,24). The most important of all here is love. In fact, growth in God means growth in love, for God is love (1 John 4:8). Love is the greatest and most important quality that a Christian can have (1 Corinthians 13:13). A definition of Christian love is found in 1 Corinthians 13:4-8a 

“Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.” 

Comparing our lives with this description of love can give us an idea of how far we have really progressed in sanctification as God defines it. 

It is worth mentioning that the truly sanctified or holy person has the fruit of joy. To think that gloominess and sadness is a mark of holiness is to be deceived. The Bible calls us to “rejoice in the Lord always” (Philippians 4:4; 1 Thessalonians 5:16). 

Sanctification produces other qualities of godly character such as courage, endurance, truthfulness, honesty and many others. Sanctification is rooted in humilty - the correct view of God and oneself which leads one to hear correction from God and others, to put down selfish desires, and to obey God from the heart. The more truly humble a person is, the more God’s grace will work in his or her life to produce all the other elements of godly character. 

Sanctification means overcoming sin. As God comes in and fills the life, darkness and deception and evil desire is rooted out and cast out. The process of sanctification will change our motives, our thinking, our speaking, our behaviour and our actions. The old nature will be crucified (Galatians 5:24) and what it produces will be stopped. But most of all God will manifest Himself through a sanctified life. 

A sanctified person will be like God in His character and personality. 

Sanctification is an ongoing work in the life of the Christian. There may be moments of special consecration and powerful change worked by God, but a Christian could easily deceive himself if he considers he has “arrived” already as far as sanctification is concerned. We should always be diligent to make our calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:10). The salvation of the soul - the mind, will and emotions, is usually never quite completely wrought in any Christian before he or she dies. But it is important that we receive as much of this work of sanctification in this life as possible. To oppose or resist this process is to choose sin and rebellion against God.  

Christianholiness.com


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## Ronnie T (Oct 5, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> WHAT IS SANCTIFICATION?
> 
> Sanctification (Gk: hagiasmos) means literally “making holy”. It also means “consecration” or “setting apart” something for a special holy purpose.
> 
> ...



That's the way I've always taking the idea of sanctification.
Sanctification comes from two directions; from God, and from me.
Mine is a work in progress.
Sanctification is part of the covenant relationship between God and myself, with Jesus as my Lord and Savior.


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## thedeacon (Oct 5, 2009)

Sanctification is not slow, it is instant, because it comes from God through Jesus Christ and the Blood he shed to "buy or purchase" us for his kingdom.

The blood of Jesus Christ acts as a filter for sin, in other words when God looks at us he looks at us through the blood of Jesus Christ and if he sees us with a penitant heart then there is sanctification or (purification).

Sanctification is instant, its us that is long to believe, have faith, forgive others, forgive ourselves, reach out and upwards to God, follow his teachings etc, etc, etc,.  Its us that is slow, God is swift.


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## CRT (Oct 5, 2009)

thedeacon said:


> Sanctification is not slow, it is instant, because it comes from God through Jesus Christ and the Blood he shed to "buy or purchase" us for his kingdom.
> 
> The blood of Jesus Christ acts as a filter for sin, in other words when God looks at us he looks at us through the blood of Jesus Christ and if he sees us with a penitant heart then there is sanctification or (purification).
> 
> Sanctification is instant, its us that is long to believe, have faith, forgive others, forgive ourselves, reach out and upwards to God, follow his teachings etc, etc, etc,.  Its us that is slow, God is swift.



In all humility, could you post some scriptural evidence as to why you believe what you do? Perhaps you are confusing sanctification with justification??


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 5, 2009)

thedeacon said:


> Sanctification is not slow, it is instant, because it comes from God through Jesus Christ and the Blood he shed to "buy or purchase" us for his kingdom.
> 
> The blood of Jesus Christ acts as a filter for sin, in other words when God looks at us he looks at us through the blood of Jesus Christ and if he sees us with a penitant heart then there is sanctification or (purification).
> 
> Sanctification is instant, its us that is long to believe, have faith, forgive others, forgive ourselves, reach out and upwards to God, follow his teachings etc, etc, etc,.  Its us that is slow, God is swift.



I agree completely, if you substitute the word "sanctification" with "righteousness/justification"


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## Lowjack (Oct 5, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> I agree completely, if you substitute the word "sanctification" with "righteousness/justification"



They Are not the same thing Brother.


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## StriperAddict (Oct 5, 2009)

*Interesting...*



5pointCal said:


> In all humility, could you post some scriptural evidence as to why you believe what you do? Perhaps you are confusing sanctification with justification??


 
The 'sanctification' or 'holiness' without which no one will see the Lord is talked about in scripture. I did a reference check through most NT scriptures and found the meaning to be Spirit - breathed, or as from the Lord, not man.  Interesting. I really thought there was a degree of self-involvement to it.  Maybe it is from a sence of what can I "do" to follow the Lord more closely?

Perhaps our pursuit of holiness or sanctification has a degree of the old man that must be taken to the cross.  Just sayin.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 5, 2009)

God's holiness and a Christian's holiness differ. Holiness is a part of God's divine nature. God did not become holy; God is holy. God is holy because He is absolutely, completely free from evil. What does that mean? In every sense, God is the opposite of evil. God is exclusively pure. Evil is God's enemy, an enemy that repulses Him. He has no desire to embrace evil. He is beyond temptation, and He never uses evil (James 1:13). God is holy because He is sinless.

A Christian is holy because he or she is cleansed. Jesus' atoning blood destroyed the person's sins through forgiveness (Ephesians 1:7). Divine forgiveness destroys human sin. Every person who lives in Jesus Christ is holy because he or she exists in God's forgiveness. The Christian is holy only because he or she is forgiven. The Christian is never holy because he or she has not sinned. While God always has been, is, and will be holy, the Christian is holy only because he or she is made holy through God's forgiveness.

Holiness is both a state of existence and a commitment to action. It is evidenced in the absence of evil behavior. It also is evidenced in the Christian's godly actions. A Christian does not demonstrate holiness by doing nothing. Resisting evil acts proves little if the person also rejects godly behavior. A Christian does not demonstrate holiness by godly acts. Performing godly deeds proves little if the person condones ungodly behavior. The Christian who performs godly deeds while refusing to resist evil behavior misunderstands holiness. Human holiness is demonstrated by combining the two: resisting evil and serving good.


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## Lowjack (Oct 5, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Wait, I thought you no longer had any sin in your life.


And You do ? I thought you accepted that Christ paid for all your sins, Past ,Present and Future ?
I thought God is working in you Through His spirit to bring you before God Himself Spotless and blameless, or is that not found in your Bible ?
I surely didn't expect such ignorance from a Christian with the knowledge you have ?? or was that Tongue On Cheek ?


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## Lowjack (Oct 5, 2009)

StriperAddict said:


> The 'sanctification' or 'holiness' without which no one will see the Lord is talked about in scripture. I did a reference check through most NT scriptures and found the meaning to be Spirit - breathed, or as from the Lord, not man.  Interesting. I really thought there was a degree of self-involvement to it.  Maybe it is from a sence of what can I "do" to follow the Lord more closely?
> 
> Perhaps our pursuit of holiness or sanctification has a degree of the old man that must be taken to the cross.  Just sayin.



You are sayin' right, the old man is crucified daily, until the New one grows and grows, I know a lot of people have a difficult time believing that, because they are surrounded by temptation on a daily basis, the internet, flashing you with invitations from women and dates, pornography at the tip of a button,magazines, TV Advertising Etc.
But you have the key in your hand you can turn all those things that may cause you to sin off.
Take my word for it.


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## farmasis (Oct 5, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> And You do ? I thought you accepted that Christ paid for all your sins, Past ,Present and Future ?
> I thought God is working in you Through His spirit to bring you before God Himself Spotless and blameless, or is that not found in your Bible ?
> I surely didn't expect such ignorance from a Christian with the knowledge you have ?? or was that Tongue On Cheek ?


 

No Lowjack, I still sin. My sins may be covered, but I still choose to disobey God and serve myself sometimes.

Some of us Christians still do sin.

Kinda like Paul...the chiefest of all sinners, as he called himself.


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## Lowjack (Oct 5, 2009)

farmasis said:


> No Lowjack, I still sin. My sins may be covered, but I still choose to disobey God and serve myself sometimes.
> 
> Some of us Christians still do sin.
> 
> Kinda like Paul...the chiefest of all sinners, as he called himself.



That seems to be a crutch that some believers use to Justify what they do, The Context of that verse was the Humility in which Paul considered himself to HAVE BEING a Sinner, Would you then say that believe created in your mind from one verse justifies sinning ?

So then the rest of scriptures taht say we are not sinners, then should be just thrown away ?

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the 1law: for sin is the atransgression of the law. 
1 Matt 5:19, Rom 7:7 

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our 1sins; and in him is no sin. 
1 Matt 9:13, Matt 18:11, Luke 19:10, Rom 5:8, 1st Tim 1:15 

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might 1destroy the works of the devil. 1 Gen 3:15, Rom 16:20, Heb 2:14 
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the 1children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us

I'm Sorry you still believe Satan's Lies.


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## farmasis (Oct 5, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> That seems to be a crutch that some believers use to Justify what they do, The Context of that verse was the Humility in which Paul considered himself to HAVE BEING a Sinner, Would you then say that believe created in your mind from one verse justifies sinning ?
> 
> So then the rest of scriptures taht say we are not sinners, then should be just thrown away ?
> 
> ...


 
I am sorry that Satan has convinced you that you are cleaner than you are.

Paul did not say he was the chiefest of sinners, he said he IS.

*<SUP>15</SUP>* This _is_ a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

AM not WAS.

Maybe you would be best served with a reminder, let him who think he stands take heed, lest he fall. (1 Cor. 10)

*<SUP>8</SUP>* If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. <SUP id=en-NKJV-30546 class=versenum>*9*</SUP> If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us _our_ sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. <SUP id=en-NKJV-30547 class=versenum>*10*</SUP> If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (1 John)


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 5, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> They Are not the same thing Brother.



My point was, he defined justification (as I understand it).


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## Lowjack (Oct 5, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I am sorry that Satan has convinced you that you are cleaner than you are.
> 
> Paul did not say he was the chiefest of sinners, he said he IS.
> 
> ...



So If you confessed your sin you are still in sin no matter what ?

We have a poblem here I think, you cannot practice sin and be saved.


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## farmasis (Oct 5, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> So If you confessed your sin you are still in sin no matter what ?
> 
> We have a poblem here I think, you cannot practice sin and be saved.


 
The sanctification process, to me at least, is the process that I begin to trust God and follow him and deny self and stop trying to please the sinful desires of my flesh. I begin the proces of living in sin, to following God. But, in that process I fail. I fail constantly. I am weak. I keep turning from what I know is right, to please myself. I am the tax collector crying who is so dirty he cannot even look up to heaven, but cries out for mercy.

*<SUP>10</SUP>* “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. <SUP id=en-NKJV-25696 class=versenum>*11*</SUP> The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. <SUP id=en-NKJV-25697 class=versenum>*12*</SUP> I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ <SUP id=en-NKJV-25698 class=versenum>*13*</SUP> And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise _his_ eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ <SUP id=en-NKJV-25699 class=versenum>*14*</SUP> I tell you, this man went down to his house justified _rather_ than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 18)

Which are you?

*<SUP>14</SUP>* For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28103 class=versenum>*15*</SUP> For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28104 class=versenum>*16*</SUP> If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that _it is_ good. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28105 class=versenum>*17*</SUP> But now, _it is_ no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28106 class=versenum>*18*</SUP> For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but _how_ to perform what is good I do not find. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28107 class=versenum>*19*</SUP> For the good that I will _to do,_ I do not do; but the evil I will not _to do,_ that I practice. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28108 class=versenum>*20*</SUP> Now if I do what I will not _to do,_ it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 
<SUP id=en-NKJV-28109 class=versenum>*21*</SUP> I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28110 class=versenum>*22*</SUP> For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28111 class=versenum>*23*</SUP> But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28112 class=versenum>*24*</SUP> O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? <SUP id=en-NKJV-28113 class=versenum>*25*</SUP> I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! 
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7)


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## Lowjack (Oct 5, 2009)

I'm really frustrated with some of you and trying to twist everything to make me look an arrogant person, The fact is , i'm in Christ , Christ is in me and what I do is for his glory, the attitude Oh I;m so humble because I admit I;m a sinner" is totally unbiblical, if you are in sin you are not saved ! You never knew God if you after receiving his gift continued to sin.

So stop making yourself such a humble believer to make me or others who are in the word seem like we are arrogant because we say , we sin no more.
You are saying it so you can fit with everyone and or perhaps it is true you continue to sin.


For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on (the testimony of) two or three witnesses. How much more sever punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, 'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.' And again, 'The Lord will judge His people.' It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 

VERSE 26

In the next section of Hebrews (vs 26-31) the writer presents the character and consequences of sin. He begins in verse 26; 'For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.' The important word in this verse is 'willfully.' In Greek, when one wants to put emphasis on a certain word, he puts it at the front of the sentence. The Greek text in Hebrews 10:26 lists 'willfully' as the first word. The picture is that of a person who has willingly decided to pursue a course of rebellion against God.

If you have sinned after knowing the truth you now need a lawyer,
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 
(1 John 1:9–10;2:1–2)


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## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2009)

Temptation never dies, we have to die to temptation.

So when you wonder why am I still tempted? does that make me a sinner? am I not doing what I should do? am I not good enough? does satan not know I'm saved? etc etc.

Remember satan will never go away, he may lighten up some but he sends his demons to tempt and torment us almost everyday.

So when satan or his demons come I rebuke them or ignore them or say the name of Jesus....and thank God that I know the difference, I used to just act on whatever came to my mind, good or bad.


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## Lowjack (Oct 6, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Temptation never dies, we have to die to temptation.
> 
> So when you wonder why am I still tempted? does that make me a sinner? am I not doing what I should do? am I not good enough? does satan not know I'm saved? etc etc.
> 
> ...


Temptation Can be of Satan or it can be from the old person that lives in you, which is what must be sacrificed and done away with.
Not acting on your temptations is what makes a Believer Holy, Now can we fall ? Yes anyone can fall.


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## Inthegarge (Oct 6, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Temptation Can be of Satan or it can be from the old person that lives in you, which is what must be sacrificed and done away with.
> Not acting on your temptations is what makes a Believer Holy, Now can we fall ? Yes anyone can fall.



Now I'm confused. One time you say your not a sinner and the next time you are. For an accurate picture you need to compare scripture to scripture. The scripture does not conflict only we do. Taking scripture out of context makes it a pretext and then all your are doing is confusing the issue. If we are not still sinners why does the scripture say 
2 Cor 5:17 " Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, old things are passed away: behold, all things are become(Lit becoming in the Greek) new ". And in verse 10..(In proper context) Talking to Christians "We must all appear the judgement seat of Christ; that everyone may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done whether it be good or bad". Sounds like we still have the capability to do "bad" and still be "in Christ".  RW


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## earl (Oct 6, 2009)

Careful !!!!  If you question him too closely or compare one of his posts with another ,you will be labeled as a bigot and racist or worse.


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## Lowjack (Oct 6, 2009)

Inthegarge said:


> Now I'm confused. One time you say your not a sinner and the next time you are. For an accurate picture you need to compare scripture to scripture. The scripture does not conflict only we do. Taking scripture out of context makes it a pretext and then all your are doing is confusing the issue. If we are not still sinners why does the scripture say
> 2 Cor 5:17 " Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, old things are passed away: behold, all things are become(Lit becoming in the Greek) new ". And in verse 10..(In proper context) Talking to Christians "We must all appear the judgement seat of Christ; that everyone may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done whether it be good or bad". Sounds like we still have the capability to do "bad" and still be "in Christ".  RW



No My Post does not say I'm a sinner it says anyone has the potential to fall from Grace,I haven't say I sin I say I used to sinned. 
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.RM 8;1So we will all appear before The Throne to receive what ? Punishment, No ! to either not receive Rewards or to receive a reward according how you walked with Christ.

Don't listen to the whispers of the devil.
Shalom


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## farmasis (Oct 6, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> No My Post does not say I'm a sinner it says anyone has the potential to fall from Grace,I haven't say I sin I say I used to sinned.
> There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.RM 8;1So we will all appear before The Throne to receive what ? Punishment, No ! to either not receive Rewards or to receive a reward according how you walked with Christ.
> 
> Don't listen to the whispers of the devil.
> Shalom


 
There is a BIG difference in not having condemnation because of grace and mercy, and believing that you do not sin.

You listed the 10 commandments before and say you have kept them. But, applying what Jesus said... have you never looked a woman with lust in your mind? Never?
Have you never had hatred in your heart for another? Never?

I will not call you a liar, I am just saying you are a much better man than I.

You keep saying that if we believe we can sin, we are listening to Satan, but....

Why would God correct us, if we do not sin? (Hebrews 12:1-12)

Why would God instruct us how to bring a brother back who sins? (1 John 5:16)

Why would God say that if we say we have no sin we are a liar? (1 John 1:8) 

Why are we to give account of things we do, both good and bad? (2 Cor 5:10)


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## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2009)

farmasis said:


> There is a BIG difference in not having condemnation because of grace and mercy, and believing that you do not sin.
> 
> You listed the 10 commandments before and say you have kept them. But, applying what Jesus said... have you never looked a woman with lust in your mind? Never?
> Have you never had hatred in your heart for another? Never?
> ...



Agreed!

The only time I'm sinless is when I ask for forgiveness....oops then I sin again and have to ask for forgiveness again. So for a moment or maybe an hour I'm sinless, if I don't speak or think etc etc. And I'm only sinless by the blood.
If I could be free of sin on my own, Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross. I admit there's a lot holier people than I am, but I still have to wonder if they are truly sinless and are continually sinless.


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## Lowjack (Oct 6, 2009)

farmasis said:


> There is a BIG difference in not having condemnation because of grace and mercy, and believing that you do not sin.
> 
> You listed the 10 commandments before and say you have kept them. But, applying what Jesus said... have you never looked a woman with lust in your mind? Never?
> Have you never had hatred in your heart for another? Never?
> ...



Again My brother you Judge according to your own condition, Now my condition these days are not the same as when I was 18, I have being able not to lust as you say, I look at the Women in My life as my sisters in Christ, I do not look at them as a sexual object, as a matter of fact my wife and I were commenting that our youngest now 32 Is like me in many ways, he doesn't like women who dressed or maybe I should say undressed in public, he doesn't watch lusty TV shows, etc. He doesn't curse, my wife said maybe is genetic ?
I met my wife when we were 12 became friends all through Elementary, then I went to the middle east when I was 12, and then one day when I was 14 we found each other again out of the blue and started to correspond, I never had a girlfriend outside of her and never being unfaithful to her, not that some women have not tried to tempt me,but I can't be like that.
So one doesn't judge others by their weaknesses, or how one thinks everyone should be, but by what they know about them.

When I had a chaplain mission in the Local Jails, most thieves I counseled thought everyone stole, must rapist thought everyone rapes, and assassins think everyone can commit murder, that is worldly reasoning, it shouldn't exist among us,IMO

Why you ask all those questions as if everyone does bad ?
But God in his wisdom knows who will do what before hand, If the devil tempts you with money and you fall because of it, he will come back time after time, if he tempts you with sex and you fall he will continue to use that against you, until you stand up to him and say no more.
The word says "resist the devil and he will flee from you"

As long as you dance to his tune ,he will keep on playing what is sweet to your ears, I have become deff to his music and so can you.

"do not give the devil any opportunity"
Ephesians 6
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
He is able to keep you from temptation if you let him.


11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.


12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.


14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;


15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;


16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.


17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Ephesians 4
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:


19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.


20 But ye have not so learned Christ;


21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:


22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;


23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.


26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:


27 Neither give place to the devil.
If you continue to believe that you are a sinner while the word says do not, you are giving Satan an open door to continuely present opportunities to sin, because you haven't taken seriously your condition as a SON of God, with more power than any devil, IMO.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Again My brother you Judge according to your own condition, Now my condition these days are not the same as when I was 18, I have being able not to lust as you say, I look at the Women in My life as my sisters in Christ, I do not look at them as a sexual object, as a matter of fact my wife and I were commenting that our youngest now 32 Is like me in many ways, he doesn't like women who dressed or maybe I should say undressed in public, he doesn't watch lusty TV shows, etc. He doesn't curse, my wife said maybe is genetic ?
> I met my wife when we were 12 became friends all through Elementary, then I went to the middle east when I was 12, and then one day when I was 14 we found each other again out of the blue and started to correspond, I never had a girlfriend outside of her and never being unfaithful to her, not that some women have not tried to tempt me,but I can't be like that.
> So one doesn't judge others by their weaknesses, or how one thinks everyone should be, but by what they know about them.
> 
> ...




I believe the point may be, if we didn't struggle with any of that we wouldn't have to armed, would we?

Why put on the full armour of God if we aren't being attacked? We are constantly in battle...well at least I am.
That's why I do all the things mentioned above.


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## Lowjack (Oct 6, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> I believe the point may be, if we didn't struggle with any of that we wouldn't have to armed, would we?
> 
> Why put on the full armour of God if we aren't being attacked? We are constantly in battle...well at least I am.
> That's why I do all the things mentioned above.



Well yeah there are people who do not know there is an Armor that God has given us, it is a constant battle, but that doesn't mean you are sinning while you battled, does it ?
Problem is most believers come from Churches that belittled their members, they have being programmed to think they are always sinning and even come up with sins which are not found in the law, to keep you under the pastors toes.
I'm not saying temptation doesn't exist, it is everywhere for the man of God, but I can just walk by it and not even notice it, I pray in my mind constantly and constantly think of his word, do you also do that ? or is your mind in the things of the world, the unreal world of TV soap operas and Music and other things that come into our living rooms if you let them ?


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## farmasis (Oct 6, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> If you continue to believe that you are a sinner while the word says do not, you are giving Satan an open door to continuely present opportunities to sin, because you haven't taken seriously your condition as a SON of God, with more power than any devil, IMO.


 
Gonna end it here, only reminding you what God's Word says... and either it or you are wrong. You make the decision which one.

<SUP>8</SUP> If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. <SUP id=en-NKJV-30546 class=versenum>*9*</SUP> If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us _our_ sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. <SUP id=en-NKJV-30547 class=versenum>*10*</SUP> If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (1 John)


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## Lowjack (Oct 6, 2009)

So if you confess your sins and your sins are paid in full ,you still are a sinner ?
I don't think Paul thought that through very well or somehow it was lost in translation.

If Jesus paid for my sins and made me Justified before God, then why would I be a sinner, If I do what the law says Is what God wants why would I consider myself a sinner ?
When the young Rich man came to Jesus and ask how he could entered the Kingdom, Jesus said Keep the commandments and the young man replied all these things I have done since I was little, and Jesus didn't say , hey you are lying no one can keep the law" NO he said then take all your possessions and sell them and follow me" But then young man went away very sad because he was very rich.
Then again we see a difference between Paulinian Teaching and Christ's teachings and it is possible to be sinless, and it is possible to fall if you listen to the devil instead of God.


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## earl (Oct 6, 2009)

Please tell me you hit the wrong keys.
''I don't think Paul thought that through very well ''

Just who are you that you can question one of the main contributors to the NT ??????????????????????? Did you miss the jot and tittle parts ???
I am not a Christian and I can't believe what you posted !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## BeenHuntn (Oct 6, 2009)

earl said:


> Please tell me you hit the wrong keys.
> ''I don't think Paul thought that through very well ''
> 
> Just who are you that you can question one of the main contributors to the NT ??????????????????????? Did you miss the jot and tittle parts ???
> I am not a Christian and I can't believe what you posted !!!!!!!!!!!!!!



LJ, i didn't think that i would ever say this... but i think earl has a point...  (good Lord, what is the world coming to?) 

Paul did not write anything. all of Scripture is written by the Holy Spirit whether it was spoken by Christ, Paul or Moses...

earl, we agreed on something!!!


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## Lowjack (Oct 6, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Gonna end it here, only reminding you what God's Word says... and either it or you are wrong. You make the decision which one.
> 
> <SUP>8</SUP> If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. <SUP id=en-NKJV-30546 class=versenum>*9*</SUP> If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us _our_ sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. <SUP id=en-NKJV-30547 class=versenum>*10*</SUP> If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (1 John)



Of Couse if you use that tanslation it looks like it is saying if you say you have no sin now that you are a christian, but in fact that is way of from the greek textus which says,

ἐὰν εἴπωμεν ὅτι οὐχ ἡμαρτήκαμεν, ψεύστην ποιοῦμεν αὐτὸν καὶ ὁ λόγος αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν ἡμῖν

Latin: Biblia Sacra Vulgata
si dixerimus quoniam non peccavimus mendacem facimus eum et verbum eius non est in nobis
 The KJV has the correct transliteration
1 John 1:10 King James Bible
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us
(Past Tense my brother ,not present tense as you quoted)

It is speaking of someone saying I have never sin, so I don't need to be saved or I don't need Jesus.
Which reminds me of how my Mother IN law used to think,LOL

"For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God"
at one time we were all sinners.

   By W.E. Shepard                                                    

 “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”—1 John 1:8.    


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The quotation of this text is used probably more than that of any other in the Bible in the attempt to refute the doctrine of holiness. Perhaps it would be better to say the attempted quotation, for few ever get it right, and we never knew one to give chapter and verse. It is generally quoted thus: 

“He that saith he liveth and sinneth not is a liar and the truth is not in him ;“ and that said over so very rapidly that one can scarcely catch the words. Perhaps this rapidity is due to its frequent use. “Practice makes perfect,” and practice in thus repeating such texts makes perfect adepts in denouncing Christian perfection. 

We are reminded of a certain lady who quoted these words to a young preacher, a friend of the writer, and was told that such a text was not in the Bible. She replied that it was in her Bible. In about two weeks or so the preacher asked her if she had found that text yet. She said she had read through the Psalms, the four Gospels, and most of the Epistles, and had not found it, but still declared, “It is there.” One good result was that she got to reading her Bible. 

If we take this verse away from its context it would seem to teach that it is self-deception for one to lay claim to freedom from sin. But is it honest to snatch a text, or a portion of one, from the context either to prove or refute a doctrine, when the tenor of Scripture teaches otherwise? 

For one to take this text for a weapon against the experience or profession of holiness, proves that he is either ignorant of the Word of God, or else he is a designing man. If he is ignorant, he should not attempt to teach; if he is a designer, then he should be shunned. 

If one is justified in taking a verse, or a part of the same, out of its place, then anything can be proved from the Bible. In one place it says, “There is no God ;“ but taking in the context it says, “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.” Again we read, "Let him that stole, steal ;“ but when we read the whole verse it says, “Let him that stole, steal no more.” Three verses below the one in question, the apostle John could be made to say, “My little children, these things write I unto you that ye sin.” But who would have the audacity to say that John taught the people to sin? When we add the next word and read, “that ye sin not,” we get just the opposite thought. 

So it is with I John 1:8 and many other wrested Scriptures. Instead of teaching what opposers of holiness claim they do, they convey quite a different thought, and sometimes the very opposite.

What, then, does our text teach? Read the verse above, which is I John 1:7: “But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.” Suppose a garment were spotted with ink, and it were put through a process which cleanseth from all ink, how much ink would remain? Now, if a statement were made to the effect that there was no ink left, would there be any self-deception in that? On the same principle, then, if “the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin,” how much sin is left? Then, if all sin is cleansed, where is the self-deception if a testimony should be given to that effect? Of course we would not advocate self-righteousness nor self-exaltation, but on the contrary always put Jesus first, and let everybody know that all we are is through Christ Jesus. Instead of saying, “I am saved” and “I am sanctified,” putting “I” first, say, “Jesus saves” and “Jesus sanctifies.” Let the people see Jesus and not ourselves. We should be hidden away, but at the same time magnify what the Lord has done for us. Give Him all the glory. 

To get at the true meaning of the verse in question, let us suppose a conversation between a Christian depending, as all must, on the blood of Christ for salvation, and a self-righteous sinner, who thinks he is good enough and has no sin, consequently no need of the cleansing blood.

Christian: My friend, did you know that “if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin?” I have proved this to be true, and if you will come to Him as I did you may prove it for yourself, and be cleansed from all sin. 

Self-Righteous: But I have no sin to be cleansed away; I have no need of the blood of Jesus. 

Christian: What? You say you have no sin? “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” Surely you are wrong and self-deceived. You should repent, confess your sins, and be saved, for we read in I John 1 :9. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 

Self-Righteous: But I have never sinned, and do not feel that I have anything to confess or repent of. I pay my honest debts, and treat my neighbors well, and support my family, and I believe I am just as good as anyone. I am not a sinner, and have never done anything wrong. 

Christian: Surely, in saving that, you are making God a liar, for in I John 1:10 it says: “If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him. liar, and His word is not in us.”   

Thus we get at the meaning of the last four verses of I John 1. The text in question, then, does not have any reference whatever to one who has been cleansed from all sin, but to one who says he has no sin to be cleansed from, when he really has sin in his heart. It is also just as applicable to the unsanctified Christian who denies the further need of cleansing. 

Why should we turn lawyer and plead for sin as if the atonement was a failure and sin a necessity? How some people fly to these wrested Scriptures and there pillow their heads, and slumber on in their carnal security, when God is thundering in tones of Sinai, “Sin no more !“ He is swinging the awful danger signal down the ages, “Stand in awe, and sin not.” 

What sad disappointment it brings to some peoEdited to Remove Profanity ----ple when God’s prohibitions diametrically cross their carnal desires! And so they seek for comfort and ease in those misconstrued passages which will allow them to sin “just a little.” 

A professing Christian lady, living in the 7th chapter of Romans, doing things that she ought not, and leaving undone the things she ought to do, because she was carnal, sold under sin, and it was no more she that did it, but sin that dwelt in her—pleading her cause one day in a conversation with a sanctified lady, asked her to read a verse in the 7th chapter of Romans, as she supposed, for her vindication. The sanctified lady, knowing that she had made a mistake in the chapter and verse, nevertheless read the one cited, when lo, it read: “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein ?“ Whereupon the pleader for sin exclaimed, “That is not the verse I meant.” An unsaved person, overhearing the conversation, spoke out and said, “Hold on! That’s Bible, just the same.” 

Surely we have need of consistency; it is a great jewel.


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## farmasis (Oct 6, 2009)

Fine, let's move to Chapter 2. I know I said I was going to drop it, but I lied (sinned again).

Try and make this fit your story....

Maybe Paul misspoke again?

 <SUP id=en-NKJV-30548 class=versenum>*1*</SUP> My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. <SUP id=en-NKJV-30549 class=versenum>*2*</SUP> And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1 John 2)


*<SUP>12</SUP>* But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. (1 Cor. 8)

Also, was it not Jesus's brother who said...

 <SUP id=en-NKJV-30367 class=versenum>*16*</SUP> Confess _your_ trespasses<SUP class=footnote value='[e]'>[e]</SUP> to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed
e. James 5:16 NU-Text reads _Therefore confess your sins._

*<SUP>19</SUP>* Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, <SUP id=en-NKJV-30371 class=versenum>*20*</SUP> let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul<SUP class=footnote value='[f]'>[f]</SUP> from death and cover a multitude of sins. (James 5)

and Jesus himself said....
*<SUP>1</SUP>* Then He said to the disciples, “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe _to him_ through whom they do come! <SUP id=en-NKJV-25650 class=versenum>*2*</SUP> It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. <SUP id=en-NKJV-25651 class=versenum>*3*</SUP> Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you,<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. <SUP id=en-NKJV-25652 class=versenum>*4*</SUP> And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you,<SUP class=footnote value='[b]'>[b]</SUP> saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

and after giving us the model prayer he said...

*<SUP>14</SUP>* “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. <SUP id=en-NKJV-23294 class=versenum>*15*</SUP> But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (Matt 6)


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## Lowjack (Oct 6, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> LJ, i didn't think that i would ever say this... but i think earl has a point...  (good Lord, what is the world coming to?)
> 
> Paul did not write anything. all of Scripture is written by the Holy Spirit whether it was spoken by Christ, Paul or Moses...
> 
> earl, we agreed on something!!!



Actually The NT is the Inspired Word of God to Holy men, not the dictated Word of God as the Torah is.
John Did write dictated by Christ in Revelation.
And he walked with the Christ 3 years or so, Paul did not.


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## farmasis (Oct 6, 2009)

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”—1 John 1:8. 


People's New Testament 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. To say that we have reached a sinless state in which we no longer need the blood of Christ to cleanse us is a deception. This language is in square opposition to the claims of the Perfectionists of all ages.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
that we have no sin-"Have," not "have had," must refer not to the past sinful life while unconverted, but to the present state wherein believers have sin even still. Observe, "sin" is in the singular; "(confess our) sins" (1Jo 1:9) in the plural. Sin refers to the corruption of the old man still present in us, and the stain created by the actual sins flowing from that old nature in us. To confess our need of cleansing from present sin is essential to "walking in the light"; so far is the presence of some sin incompatible with our in the main "walking in light." But the believer hates, confesses, and longs to be delivered from all sin, which is darkness. "They who defend their sins, will see in the great day whether their sins can defend them."

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=comtext colSpan=2>While the necessity of a holy walk is insisted upon, as the effect and evidence of the knowledge of God in Christ Jesus, the opposite error of self-righteous pride is guarded against with equal care. All who walk near to God, in holiness and righteousness, are sensible that their best days and duties are mixed with sin. God has given testimony to the sinfulness of the world, by providing a sufficient, effectual Sacrifice for sin, needed in all ages; and the sinfulness of believers themselves is shown, by requiring them continually to confess their sins, and to apply by faith to the blood of that Sacrifice. Let us plead guilty before God, be humble, and willing to know the worst of our case. Let us honestly confess all our sins in their full extent, relying wholly on his mercy and truth through the righteousness of Christ, for a free and full forgiveness, and our deliverance from the power and practice of sin.
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=comtext colSpan=2></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Geneva Study Bible (5) There is none but need this benefit, because there is none that is not a sinner.


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## farmasis (Oct 6, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Actually The NT is the Inspired Word of God to Holy men, not the dictated Word of God as the Torah is.
> John Did write dictated by Christ in Revelation.
> And he walked with the Christ 3 years or so, Paul did not.


 
So what are you saying?

As far as God's work in delivering his word and leading to the development of our Bible He was involved in the following decending fashion...

Old Testament > NT written by disciples > NT written by Paul


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## Lowjack (Oct 6, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Fine, let's move to Chapter 2. I know I said I was going to drop it, but I lied (sinned again).
> 
> Try and make this fit your story....
> 
> ...



So he is saying what I'm Saying, he was writing to them so they would not sin ( Perfect condition before God)Not Missing the mark etc.
As I'm writing to you all, it is possible not to sin I said that didn't I ?
I also said anyone can be tempted to fall into sin, didn't I say that ?
But if you do sin , then you need to confess it right away and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sins" doesn't the word say that ? so I also repeated what the word says.
The Blood of Christ cleanses us from all sins, is actually in the Greek in present active tense, meaning his blood continuously is at work washing us from sin, Confessing restores your Position with the father.
If the blood of Christ Cleanses us from all sin, how can you call yourself or me a sinner ? see What I mean.
an example in the flesh not in the spirit.
I was once poor, but the Lord blessed me and I acquired wealth, I made investments which continuously produce a profit, would you call me poor because I Once didn't have anything.
Instead I should reflect on what was keeping me poor and why the Lord blessed me and tried my hardest not to fall back into that situation again with the help of my investment manager (Holy Spirit), does that make sense now ?.
So all of those verses are preparing the believer should he fall, not saying you should sin because the bible says some may sin.


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## farmasis (Oct 6, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> So he is saying what I'm Saying, he was writing to them so they would not sin ( Perfect condition before God)Not Missing the mark etc.
> As I'm writing to you all, it is possible not to sin I said that didn't I ?
> I also said anyone can be tempted to fall into sin, didn't I say that ?
> But if you do sin , then you need to confess it right away and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sins" doesn't the word say that ? so I also repeated what the word says.
> ...


 
No, you said it is impossible to sin and be a Christian. And that if we believe it is possible we have been decieved by Satan.

Do you preach repentance at your church?


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## Lowjack (Oct 6, 2009)

farmasis said:


> “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”—1 John 1:8.
> 
> 
> People's New Testament 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. To say that we have reached a sinless state in which we no longer need the blood of Christ to cleanse us is a deception. This language is in square opposition to the claims of the Perfectionists of all ages.
> ...


All of those are Mis transliterations of the Greek textus favoring the Gnostic believes and Roman Believes of once a sinner always a sinner.


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## Inthegarge (Oct 6, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Actually The NT is the Inspired Word of God to Holy men, not the dictated Word of God as the Torah is.
> John Did write dictated by Christ in Revelation.
> And he walked with the Christ 3 years or so, Paul did not.



So your position is that God was not able to keep His Word and His intent in it ?? He couldn't stop men from changing it ?? I am sorry but the God I know is in control of everything and everyone. The Torah was passed down through men so it MUST have errors as you claim the NT does....Your logic not mine. Remember "So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" Rom 10:17.   RW


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## Lowjack (Oct 6, 2009)

farmasis said:


> No, you said it is impossible to sin and be a Christian. And that if we believe it is possible we have been decieved by Satan.
> Find that quote from me, you say I said ???
> It is not impossible to sin as long as the Old man dwells in you, as long as you allow him to rule your life, if you live a life of sin you really have not repented.
> 
> Do you preach repentance at your church?



Repentance is the main Theme of all my sermons, repentance means "a change of Mind"Not hitting yourself in the chest and crying outloud mia culpa mia culpa, repentance is recognizing you are a sinner without God and that you need the atonement of Christ so you can have fellowship with the Father, once you realize you are lost without Christ that "changed of Mind"is what brings forgiveness, because you have received believing faith, but that "changed of mind" won't happen if the Holy Spirit does not Convict you of sin, through the spoken Word.
"Faith Comes by hearing and hearing the word of God"

Confession and repentance are two different things if that is what you are getting at.
Night might, we'll continue tomorrow, you are a good debater and that's how we all should behave, you expose your point and I expose mine and we continue to be brothers.
Shalom


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## Lowjack (Oct 6, 2009)

Inthegarge said:


> So your position is that God was not able to keep His Word and His intent in it ?? He couldn't stop men from changing it ?? I am sorry but the God I know is in control of everything and everyone. The Torah was passed down through men so it MUST have errors as you claim the NT does....Your logic not mine. Remember "So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" Rom 10:17.   RW




God has kept his word intact as the Dead sea scrolls showed, the Torah and the Tenach has not changed from the Original, men have changed many things,in transliterations, no bible in English or other Languages is 100% like the original because Hebrew and Greek cannot be translate they can only be transliterated, but The message of the gospel has stayed the Same, That Christ Atoned with his blood all of our sins and Salvation is through Him alone, the rest of the books are just commentary.
Another day we will take up how the Torah was passed down and how Moses was ordered by God how to write it in a Matrix form ,just like a computer Matrix and that order could not be changed and symbols had to be exact,etc.
Right now I must sleep.
Shalom


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 7, 2009)

I think many Christians use the "Oh well, better to ask forgiveness than permission" excuse WAY too frequently. 

I LOVE Romans 6:

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 

   2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 

   3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 

   4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 

   5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 

   6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 
   7For he that is dead is freed from sin. 

   8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 

   9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 

   10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 

   11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 

   12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 

   13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 

   14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 

   15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 

   16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 

   17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 

   18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 

   19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 

   20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 

   21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 

   22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 

   23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Take that how you will...
I do not think Paul expects us to be perfect all the time, but we should pursue holiness VERY seriously. We take it for granted in the church today and say "boy, the devil has been after me good this week!"
We should all try our very hardest to flee from sin; and through the power of the Holy Spirit we can get very close.


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## gtparts (Oct 7, 2009)

Glad you asked.

Sanctification is the process of becoming more and more like Christ. Everyone matures in the faith, their thinking, and their actions at different rates.

My experience is that sanctification has been a herky-jerky, rollercoaster ride........mostly because I lose focus on the goal. Thankfully, my loving Father brings me back in line, growing me as He wills.
Try to accept His timing. Don't slack off and lag behind, but don't rush ahead either. Enjoy the journey. It is truly one of God's great gifts to His children.

Grace and peace to you, my brother.


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## earl (Oct 7, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Actually The NT is the Inspired Word of God to Holy men, not the dictated Word of God as the Torah is.
> John Did write dictated by Christ in Revelation.
> And he walked with the Christ 3 years or so, Paul did not.




If you are a born again Christian why are you holding on to the Totah and upholding it as better than the Christian bible ?? Don't the Jews use the Torah as proof positive that Jesus was not the son of God ? Christ dictated Revelation ????

I find it unbelievable that the Christians on this forum have not called you on some of the things you put forth as being from God

God is Jewish

Paul was confused [How about the rest of the authors ? ]

The Torah was dictated by God [Not inspired ,but dictated]
and outranks the bible.

For once ,I don't know what else to say.


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## Lowjack (Oct 7, 2009)

earl said:


> If you are a born again Christian why are you holding on to the Totah and upholding it as better than the Christian bible ?? Don't the Jews use the Torah as proof positive that Jesus was not the son of God ? Christ dictated Revelation ????
> 
> I find it unbelievable that the Christians on this forum have not called you on some of the things you put forth as being from God
> 
> ...



I will take some time and explain your rhetoric, they have not called me on it because I said is supported by historical facts in the bible.
The Torah is the Word Of God, The Things that The Prophets spoke and related as saying "Thus sayeth The Lord Is the Word Of God, the Things That Jesus spoke and revealed by his Mouth is the Word of God, The Things The Things found in the Tenach, such as History, psalms Etc is the "INSPIRED WORD OF GOD"
THE ULTIMATE SCRIBE
After the original revelation, Moses spent 40 days listening to God talking to him, dictating to him the 613 commandments of the Torah (which are encapsulated in Ten Statements, the so-called “Ten Commandments”) and also the principles how to apply these commandments (which are referred to as the Oral Law). 5

The Torah said A Tabernacle was Created outside the congregation so Moses Could meet with God Face to face and receive All The Instructions, when Moses would come out in the afternoon from the Tabernacle his Face would shine like the sun.

Outside the Words of Jesus in The New Testament the rest of the New Testament is The Inspired Word Of God,Not dictated bu INSPIRED.
Without the Torah there wouldn't be a Jesus or a new Testament, Christianity would be like a tree growing without roots, it would be an aborted thing.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2Tim 3:16).

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2Pet 1:20-21).

The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. (2Sam 23:2).

Now let me tell you what the term INSPIRATION means -- "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the BREATH of the Almighty hath GIVEN ME LIFE." (Job 33:4). We also read, "But there is a spirit in man: and the INSPIRATION of the Almighty giveth them understanding." (Job 32:8). See how the word INSPIRATION is connected to the spirit of a man, which was created in him by BREATHING INTO him the breath of life. INSPIRE means "breath INTO." That is how man was created. "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and BREATHED INTO his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a LIVING SOUL" (Gen 2:7). When God BREATHED INTO Adam's nostrils the BREATH of life, he became a LIVING soul. Before that, Adam was just a bunch of DUST! There was no LIFE in him before God breathed INTO him the breath of life. When a man dies, we say that he is EXPIRED. There will NOT be any BREATH in a DEAD man. EXPIRATION is the spirit/breath going OUT of a man leaving him DEAD, but INSPIRATION is the spirit/breath coming INTO a man making him ALIVE (see Ezek 37)!

Seeing that the term INSPIRATION in connection with man refers to God breathing the breath of life INTO that man, and thereby making him ALIVE, so we understand that INSPIRATION of the Scriptures as God breathing His BREATH of life INTO the (WRITTEN) SCRIPTURES, and thereby making them ALIVE! That is what inspiration of the Scriptures means. When the Bible says "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God," we understand that the Scriptures were given by the PROCESS of inspiration, wherein God has breathed INTO them His spirit and thus made them alive. Thus inspired Scriptures constitutes LIVING WORDS of God. And those living words we are referring to are WRITTEN words, for that is what "Scripture" is - WRITTEN stuff!

So, 2 Tim 3:16 is NOT talking about God breathing OUT the Scriptures, as is commonly assumed. God never breathed out any WRITTEN stuff, but He breathed out His SPOKEN words. Of course, He WROTE with His finger TWICE the ten commandments, but they were kept in the ark, and were NOT for the use of people to read. 2 Tim 3:16 is NOT about God breathing OUT the SPOKEN words from His mouth, or God breathing OUT His spoken words thru the mouths of His prophets (as in, 2 Sam 23:2 - "the Spirit of the LORD SPAKE by me"). 2 Tim 3:16 talks about God breathing into WRITTEN SCRIPTURES to make them ALIVE.
"Paul Was Confused"is a tongue on cheek statement , meaning if Paul said it with the meaning the poster was giving it, then Paul must have confused, but of Course Paul wasn't confused , it was the poster who was.

You don't what else to say ? geez I would think with that limited understanding you have, you would have a whole bunch of things to say to confuse or belittle me, You mean your inspirer run out of defects to pin on poor little old me, LOL


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## Lowjack (Oct 7, 2009)

What then should we ask, Who here is under the Law ?


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## earl (Oct 7, 2009)

'''The Torah is the Word Of God, The Things that The Prophets spoke and related as saying "Thus sayeth The Lord Is the Word Of God, the Things That Jesus spoke and revealed by his Mouth is the Word of God, The Things The Things found in the Tenach, such as History, psalms Etc is the "INSPIRED WORD OF GOD"''

Why use the OT at all ? Do the OT and Torah have the same books ? I didn't think so. Your promotion of the Torah is out of character since it was written by Jews, for Jews .[your words]

''Without the Torah there wouldn't be a Jesus or a new Testament, Christianity would be like a tree growing without roots, it would be an aborted thing.''

If things had been different ,they would have been different. 
God/Jesus /NT not possible without the Torah ? Surely you jest. What happened to ''all things are possible with God''?
If the NT weren't possible w/o it ,why didn't early Christians use the Torah instead of making the OT ? Because they were separating themselves from Judaism. Now why would they do that ? Could it be because Judaism was considered a false religion ? Hence the creation of the Christian OT.

''Seeing that the term INSPIRATION in connection with man refers to God breathing the breath of life INTO that man, and thereby making him ALIVE, so we understand that INSPIRATION of the Scriptures as God breathing His BREATH of life INTO the (WRITTEN) SCRIPTURES, and thereby making them ALIVE! That is what inspiration of the Scriptures means. When the Bible says "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God," we understand that the Scriptures were given by the PROCESS of inspiration, wherein God has breathed INTO them His spirit and thus made them alive. Thus inspired Scriptures constitutes LIVING WORDS of God. And those living words we are referring to are WRITTEN words, for that is what "Scripture" is - WRITTEN stuff!''

You didn't add any scripture so I presume that it is [a] your interpretation, * more Jewish mysticism, [c] something from the infallible Torah,[d] another of your gut and paste with no credits.

''So, 2 Tim 3:16 is NOT talking about God breathing OUT the Scriptures, as is commonly assumed. God never breathed out any WRITTEN stuff, but He breathed out His SPOKEN words. Of course, He WROTE with His finger TWICE the ten commandments, but they were kept in the ark, 2 Tim 3:16 is NOand were NOT for the use of people to read. T about God breathing OUT the SPOKEN words from His mouth, or God breathing OUT His spoken words thru the mouths of His prophets (as in, 2 Sam 23:2 - "the Spirit of the LORD SPAKE by me"). 2 Tim 3:16 talks about God breathing into WRITTEN SCRIPTURES to make them ALIVE.''

Your interpretation.
''and were NOT for the use of people to read. ''
I an sure this can be used to back up the early church's contention that the common man was not to read the bible. What is the modern Jewish take on this ? Are they not to read the Torah ?

''"Paul Was Confused"is a tongue on cheek statement , meaning if Paul said it with the meaning the poster was giving it, then Paul must have confused, but of Course Paul wasn't confused , it was the poster who was.''

More double talk.'' Blame it on my poor English''. Time and again when you are called on something stupid you post ,there are always excuses. If you are all the things you have claimed to be in past posts, I don't buy poor verbal/English skills.

''limited understanding you have, ''
I lived and worked in S.Florida for 13 years . I have seen the attitude and behavior you display much better than you can imagine. Especially the persecution complex mixed with the arrogance.

''confuse or belittle me,''
How could a non Jewish Christian ever hope to confuse you ? Belittle ? No. Put my knowledge to the test ? Absolutely.

''You mean your inspirer run out of defects to pin on poor little old me, LOL ''
Again the persecution complex ?? My'' inspirer'' is knowledge.

''What then should we ask, Who here is under the Law ? ''
No Christian is under the law. I thought you knew that. Are you under the law ? If so is it because you are Jewish or because you are Christian ?*


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## Lowjack (Oct 7, 2009)

earl said:


> '''The Torah is the Word Of God, The Things that The Prophets spoke and related as saying "Thus sayeth The Lord Is the Word Of God, the Things That Jesus spoke and revealed by his Mouth is the Word of God, The Things The Things found in the Tenach, such as History, psalms Etc is the "INSPIRED WORD OF GOD"''
> 
> Why use the OT at all ? Do the OT and Torah have the same books ? I didn't think so. Your promotion of the Torah is out of character since it was written by Jews, for Jews .[your words]
> 
> ...


*

EEEEEh WRONG ! No gentile is under the Law.
So what sin is it that you live under ?*


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## farmasis (Oct 7, 2009)

earl said:


> I find it unbelievable that the Christians on this forum have not called you on some of the things you put forth as being from God


 
I did.

But, when the Bible is explained away and scripture is reversed by one's reasoning and other scripture discounted by saying the author was confused, I don't have a starting point to argue anymore.

Once Christians disagree that the Word of God is the Word of God, time to call it quits on the argument for me.

Uncle.


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## farmasis (Oct 7, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> EEEEEh WRONG ! No gentile is under the Law.
> So what sin is it that you live under ?


 
Unsaved gentiles are not going to be judged by the Law?


*<SUP>17</SUP>* “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. <SUP id=en-NKJV-23249 class=versenum>*18*</SUP> For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. <SUP id=en-NKJV-23250 class=versenum>*19*</SUP> Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches _them,_ he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 5)

*<SUP>12</SUP>* For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law <SUP id=en-NKJV-27972 class=versenum>*13*</SUP> (for not the hearers of the law _are_ just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; (Romans 2)

*<SUP>11</SUP>* For He who said, _“Do not commit adultery,”_<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> also said, _“Do not murder.”_<SUP class=footnote value='[b]'>[b]</SUP>Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. <SUP id=en-NKJV-30302 class=versenum>*12*</SUP> So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. (James 2)

*<SUP>12</SUP>* And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is _the Book_ of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. <SUP id=en-NKJV-31048 class=versenum>*13*</SUP> The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev 20)

*<SUP>24</SUP>* Some men’s sins are clearly evident, preceding _them_ to judgment, but those of some _men_ follow later. (1 Tim. 5)


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## earl (Oct 7, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> EEEEEh WRONG ! No gentile is under the Law.
> So what sin is it that you live under ?





I'll stick with ''no Christian''. If a gentile is not a Christian ,he doesn't care much for your laws to start with.
I don't live ''under'' any sin . I do my best and get on with living and learning.

I'll ask again . Are you under the law because you are Jewish or are you not under the law because you are Christian . I don't see any possible way you can have it both ways. I understand completely if you choose not to answer. You have chosen a slippery slope .


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## earl (Oct 7, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I did.
> 
> But, when the Bible is explained away and scripture is reversed by one's reasoning and other scripture discounted by saying the author was confused, I don't have a starting point to argue anymore.
> 
> ...





 There seem to be a few who have fallen under his spell.


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## Inthegarge (Oct 7, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> I think many Christians use the "Oh well, better to ask forgiveness than permission" excuse WAY too frequently.
> 
> I LOVE Romans 6:
> 
> ...



Excellent point. But you must compare all scripture. It is clear that while our sin has been paid for in full, but it includes future sin. When Christ was crucified none of us were alive and thus our sin was future. I would love to say I don't sin. But saying that would be a lie. I sin daily and am not always even aware of it. Sins of commission & sins of ommision. While my sins are covered to God through Christ they are very apparent to anyone around me. Yes, I strive to not sin but I still war with the flesh.

Paul in Romans 7:12-25 says
V12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good V13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become excedding sinful. V14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin, V15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. V 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that is good. V17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. V18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. V19 For the good that I would I do not; but the evil which I would not, That I do. V20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. V21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. V22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. V24 O, wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? V25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. __________________


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 7, 2009)

I think all this arguing just answered BH's question in the OP. 
Why does it take so long? Because we are called to never sin, yet we are in a life-long battle against our flesh.


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## Lowjack (Oct 7, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Unsaved gentiles are not going to be judged by the Law?
> 
> 
> *<SUP>17</SUP>* “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. <SUP id=en-NKJV-23249 class=versenum>*18*</SUP> For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. <SUP id=en-NKJV-23250 class=versenum>*19*</SUP> Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches _them,_ he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 5)
> ...



When Was that said to gentiles and when was the law Given to Gentiles ?
Jesus was speaking to Jews there.

You answered your own question, They will be judge according to their deeds, will many be saved solely on their works ?
I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.
You mis interpret everything I say on purpose, I have not twisted anything you have mis interpret everything I have said, because your brain is spinning because you have never heard the doctrine of Sanctification , interpreted as the scripture portraits them.

Gentiles cannot be Judged by the Law when they have never being under the Law to begin with, Paul says 
15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.Rm 4;15
Can I be tried say in Cuba and found guilty for breaking their Laws when I have never being taught what Cuban Law is ? Who made me aware through their half millennium of existing of their Laws ?

Men say "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" But God is no man nor his judgments lack Love, Mercy and Grace, so Ignorance is an excuse with God.

So did you follow God's law before you accepted Christ ?
Can you quote one verse that says Gentiles must follow the Law, besides those who sojourned to Israel in the Old days ?


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## Lowjack (Oct 8, 2009)

Inthegarge said:


> Excellent point. But you must compare all scripture. It is clear that while our sin has been paid for in full, but it includes future sin. When Christ was crucified none of us were alive and thus our sin was future. I would love to say I don't sin. But saying that would be a lie. I sin daily and am not always even aware of it. Sins of commission & sins of ommision. While my sins are covered to God through Christ they are very apparent to anyone around me. Yes, I strive to not sin but I still war with the flesh.
> 
> Paul in Romans 7:12-25 says
> V12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good V13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become excedding sinful. V14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin, V15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. V 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that is good. V17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. V18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. V19 For the good that I would I do not; but the evil which I would not, That I do. V20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. V21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. V22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. V24 O, wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? V25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. __________________



Very Good ! you were half step from discovering the truth, your last verse explains it very well,In this plane of existance when we say I, we and others think I is that guy you see in the mirror when you look in it, but that guy is not who Jesus came to save, that guy is the sinner the flesh the corruptable one, dust in the sheol.
The I is really the guy inside the invisible one, the eternal one,The One Created to The Image of The Elohim, Him Jesus died for, he serves God with his spirit Mind, he stops sinning, the I has become part of the IAM !
The Flesh that lives for 70 or 100 years will perish and be transformed to a Spirit body in the future.
Praise Abba !


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## Inthegarge (Oct 8, 2009)

I under stand Santicifation. But we won't be Sanctified until we are out of this flesh. To say you don't sin is denying the reality you here and not in the Eternal. When a Lost man hears you make that statement he knows you sin and like Earl recognizes it. You are trying to make yourself perfect rather than "being Perfect in Christ". Using symantics  doesn't change what Paul said. Wasn't Paul sent to the Gentiles ?? Read your Bible for the truth. RW


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## farmasis (Oct 8, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> When Was that said to gentiles and when was the law Given to Gentiles ?
> Jesus was speaking to Jews there.


 
He spoke almost entirely to Jews in the Bible. Some of which does not apply to me, some does.



> You answered your own question, They will be judge according to their deeds, will many be saved solely on their works ?
> I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.


 
If there a difference in being judged by deeds and the law? No.

*<SUP>12</SUP>*Speak and act (deeds) as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-30291>*13*</SUP>because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment! (james 2)



> You mis interpret everything I say on purpose, I have not twisted anything you have mis interpret everything I have said, because your brain is spinning because you have never heard the doctrine of Sanctification , interpreted as the scripture portraits them.


 
If I am spinning, it is because what you believe does not line up with God's Word in my opinion. Sorry, I know you are a Jew, know Hebrew, are a pastor, but it does not line up with scripture.



> Gentiles cannot be Judged by the Law when they have never being under the Law to begin with, Paul says
> 15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.Rm 4;15


 
All Christians are Christians. There is no longer any distinction. God does not refer to His sons and His adopted sons differently.

 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-29113>*26*</SUP>You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-29114>*27*</SUP>for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-29115>*28*</SUP>There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-29116>*29*</SUP>If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3)




> Can I be tried say in Cuba and found guilty for breaking their Laws when I have never being taught what Cuban Law is ? Who made me aware through their half millennium of existing of their Laws ?


 
You bet you can!



> Men say "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" But God is no man nor his judgments lack Love, Mercy and Grace, so Ignorance is an excuse with God.


 
yet another that I do not see lining up with the Word of God.

*<SUP>19</SUP>*Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-27997>*20*</SUP>Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. (Romans 3)

*<SUP>15</SUP>*"If you love me, you will obey what I command. (John 14)



> So did you follow God's law before you accepted Christ ?
> Can you quote one verse that says Gentiles must follow the Law, besides those who sojourned to Israel in the Old days ?


 
I am not talking about Jewish ceremonial, sacrificial, food, etc laws. I am talking about the ones Jesus told us to obey.

See above.

Low, we may disagree, but I do respect you and regard you as a brother in Christ. You are not my enemy, but a friend I disagree with.


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## Lowjack (Oct 8, 2009)

OK I leave you to ponder as you have Mis Interpreted even the smallest points.
I'll respond to one, No I cannot be tried under Cuban Law Because I don't live in Cuba I live in The United States, nor I'm I a Cuban Citizen, now If I go to Cuba and Break their Law then I Can Be tried.

The Same thing applies to 80% of the Moses Law, It was a Law By to which the Israelis were to live by, or "the Law of the Land" It Only applied to Israelis in the Eretz Yisrael.

Then The Moral Law was never Given By God To Gentile Nations, It was Given exclusively to Israel.
Ephesians 2:11-13 - Do not lose sight of the fact they you were born "Gentiles", known by those whose bodies were circumcised (the Jews) as "the uncircumcised". You were without Christ, you were utter strangers to God's chosen community, the Jews, and you had no knowledge of, or right to, the promised agreements. You had nothing to look forward to and no God to whom you could turn. But now, through the blood of Christ, you who were once outside the pale are with us inside the circle of God's love and purpose.




The last verse of the book of Leviticus sums it up this way: “These are the commandments the Lord gave Moses on Mount Sinai for the Israelites” (Leviticus 27:34). Verse 46 of the previous chapter gives the same basic information: “These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the Lord established on Mount Sinai between himself and the Israelites through Moses.”

These are definitely the commandments of God. But who are they for? They are for the Israelites, given to them by God through Moses on Mount Sinai. They are Israel’s part of the covenant God made with them.

Covenant promise

In passages such as Deuteronomy 29:22-28 and 32:45-46 we find that the primary promise associated with God’s covenant with ancient Israel was a promise of land. If Israel would keep the covenant, they would remain long in the land; if they abandoned the covenant, then they would lose the land.

Someone might ask: “But aren’t the Ten Commandments separate from the covenant? Why are you including them in the covenant?” Deuteronomy 4:13 gives the answer. As he was reminding the Israelites of the events of Sinai, Moses said, “He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.”

The passage in Deuteronomy 5:1-6 also makes plain that the Ten Commandments and the covenant are not separate. Far from being separate from the covenant, the Ten Commandments form the centerpiece of the covenant.
You Will Find Time after Time In Deuteronomy, that God says through Moses, "When You enter the Land"You will Follow My Commandments so ( You) Israelites) may Bless" Etc etc. Now some Churches take that as written and told to them, this is a total error or understanding.

So How Is It That You A gentile born in the US, Who Have Being saved By God's grace , end up being a sinner under the Israeli Law ?
Doesn't Grace made you free , or blameless ? so after receiving Grace you became aware of The Law which made you aware of sin ? So did Grace saved you or made you guilty ?  Grace wasn't meant to accuse you, does it ?

Ponder and think hard.
And If Jesus was speaking to Jews , just what part applies to you and which doesn't ??
Jesus Said If You Love me Keep My Commandments, Do you believe Jesus is the God of The Old Testament made Flesh ? How Is it He is going to give new Commandments when He said In The Old testament to Israel, This is a perpetual Covenant between You and I, what does perpetual Mean ?

Jesus didn't issued any New Commandments, The Commandment of Loving God and Loving Each other is in The Old Covenant, Jesus only put more emphasis on that, not created a new covenant ??

When The Kingdom Is Established what will be the law of the land ? Will it be the UN law , US Law European Law ? Just which Law will the earth inhabitants be subject to as well As the Angels of Heaven ?
You dissagree with me because you don't understand these things yet.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 8, 2009)

Hey this is getting good and I'm learning a lot...y'all keep it up.
I don't like arguing but this is a great debate.  I can see both sides.


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## thedeacon (Oct 8, 2009)

To think that a Jew and a Gentile will be judged differantly is the most insane idea I have ever heard. Jesus died for all sins.

I think for us to even think we can call a differance between christians is ridiculous. Why don't I call myself an Irish christian, or someone else and african christian.

GOD IS NO RESPECTOR OR PERSONS. Brothers and Sisters the new testiment is the new law. The last will and testiment. We are living under the new law, the law of grace and grace is not Paul's wife either, it is the freewill gift of God for everyone in his favor.

This all makes me so tired.


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## earl (Oct 8, 2009)

Smoke and mirrors at it's finest.


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## Lowjack (Oct 8, 2009)

thedeacon said:


> To think that a Jew and a Gentile will be judged differantly is the most insane idea I have ever heard. Jesus died for all sins.
> 
> I think for us to even think we can call a differance between christians is ridiculous. Why don't I call myself an Irish christian, or someone else and african christian.
> 
> ...



READ AND STUDY ROMANS CHAPTER 11 and see the difference between Jews and gentiles, both Saved By THe Blood of Christ, but the Jew also By The Covenant,Promises In Principle to The Jew First then the gentile, It is only insane when you were taught to believe the church is the head and Israel the tail, That is not what the Bible teaches,
And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them: Deuteronomy 28:13 

What are the names on the 12 Gates of The New Jerusalem where you will Live with God Himself, Does it say  The Baptist Church, the Methodist, the Pentecostal ? or does Each gate have the Name of each tribe of Israel ?

I know this is Hard To comprehend when the Church has made itself believe it is the head of everything.
Yes you are partially right, you are living under Grace because you never had a covenant with God to begin with, We Messianic live By Grace and By The Covenant which is perpetual with Israel.Does that make us better persons , No, it makes us reassured. ?
What happens is that Paul goes into all these things , making sure the gentile understands he doesn't need to be circumcised to be part of the Covenant, God made you part of it Through Grace by the blood of The Messiah, while we keep the Covenant and add The messiah who Confirmed the Covenant.
That is the Gospel of The Circumcision and to you is given the gospel of The uncircumcised.
Note: Are Gentiles and Jews Judge different , well yes there is that presedence in the Bible.
When Jesus Died he went to he!! and preached to the souls , WHO WERE ONCE DISSOBEDIENT and He took them To Pradise and tresspassed Paradise to The Heavenlies with them, They were saved By Total Grace and Mercy, These were All gentiles as there were no Jews Yet or Israelites, and they were totally depraved people who Rejected God, so God destroyed their bodies, but saved their souls By The blood he shed only moments before.
While The Patriarchs and Prophets who were in Paradise, Resurrected on earth when Jesus resurrected 3 days later.
SO If You Ask Me Who Got a Better deal, I say The gentiles did and do even today, or until the Days of The gentiles is over with.
Those Israelites that Resurrected obtained Salvation but lived under the watchfull eye of their Master and were quickly and severely punished when they dissobeyed the Law, Why Because they knew the Law, But the gentiles who had no law and sinned y doing all kinds of Barberic things and never Obeyed God, were also saved.

So Who Has the Mind of The Lord, who can understand his Severity and yet his love and Mercy ?
In The End Both Were saved !

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.


29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:


31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.


32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!


34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?


35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?


36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.


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## Lowjack (Oct 8, 2009)

You guys are making me work !
I'm going to start charging for this, LOL


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## earl (Oct 8, 2009)

''I'm going to start charging for this''' Yes sir buddy . That Christ like attitude just shines right through.


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## farmasis (Oct 8, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> READ AND STUDY ROMANS CHAPTER 11 and see the difference between Jews and gentiles, both Saved By THe Blood of Christ, but the Jew also By The Covenant,Promises In Principle to The Jew First then the gentile, It is only insane when you were taught to believe the church is the head and Israel the tail, That is not what the Bible teaches,
> And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them: Deuteronomy 28:13




Low, this was spoken to Jews, but a promise to his people. His people REJECTED him. God made a new covenant and included the grafted into the vine. Gentiles and Jews that believe in Jesus are all brought into his fold. God's first chosen is still Israel, and he will use this relationship to cause jealousy in Israel to bring them back.

No, no, no...There is NO difference in a saved gentile and a saved Jew. Again, I quote the Bible and not my opinion.

<SUP>26</SUP>You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, <SUP id=en-NIV-29114 class=versenum>*27*</SUP>for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. <SUP id=en-NIV-29115 class=versenum>*28*</SUP>There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. <SUP id=en-NIV-29116 class=versenum>*29*</SUP>If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3)




> What are the names on the 12 Gates of The New Jerusalem where you will Live with God Himself, Does it say The Baptist Church, the Methodist, the Pentecostal ? or does Each gate have the Name of each tribe of Israel ?


 
so? There is only one church!

*<SUP>12</SUP>* For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also _is_ Christ. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28644 class=versenum>*13*</SUP> For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into<SUP class=footnote value='[c]'>[c]</SUP> one Spirit. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28645 class=versenum>*14*</SUP> For in fact the body is not one member but many. 
*<SUP>27</SUP>* Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.  (1 Cor. 12)



> I know this is Hard To comprehend when the Church has made itself believe it is the head of everything.


 
No, that would be Christ. (Eph 1:22)



> Yes you are partially right, you are living under Grace because you never had a covenant with God to begin with, We Messianic live By Grace and By The Covenant which is perpetual with Israel.Does that make us better persons , No, it makes us reassured. ?


 
I have a covenant with God, as do all saved gentiles. WE ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED AND HEIRS OF THE SAME PROMISES!!



> What happens is that Paul goes into all these things , making sure the gentile understands he doesn't need to be circumcised to be part of the Covenant, God made you part of it Through Grace by the blood of The Messiah, while we keep the Covenant and add The messiah who Confirmed the Covenant.
> That is the Gospel of The Circumcision and to you is given the gospel of The uncircumcised.


 
Now you are saying we are under the covenant? 

The Bible is clear it does not matter if you are circumcised or not, Jew or gentile for salvation. Let me break it to you Low, if a Jew accepts Christ and does not follow any Jewish custom or law, such as circumcision, he is SAVED!

9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. (Col. 3)

19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.  (1 Cor 7)

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. (Gal 5)



> Note: Are Gentiles and Jews Judge different , well yes there is that presedence in the Bible.
> When Jesus Died he went to he!! and preached to the souls , WHO WERE ONCE DISSOBEDIENT and He took them To Pradise and tresspassed Paradise to The Heavenlies with them, They were saved By Total Grace and Mercy, These were All gentiles as there were no Jews Yet or Israelites, and they were totally depraved people who Rejected God, so God destroyed their bodies, but saved their souls By The blood he shed only moments before.
> While The Patriarchs and Prophets who were in Paradise, Resurrected on earth when Jesus resurrected 3 days later.
> SO If You Ask Me Who Got a Better deal, I say The gentiles did and do even today, or until the Days of The gentiles is over with.
> Those Israelites that Resurrected obtained Salvation but lived under the watchfull eye of their Master and were quickly and severely punished when they dissobeyed the Law, Why Because they knew the Law, But the gentiles who had no law and sinned y doing all kinds of Barberic things and never Obeyed God, were also saved.


 
What makes you think they were all gentiles? You have any scripture to back up your opinion?


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 8, 2009)

Gentiles were grafted into the true vine(Israel). 

Here are two good questions at the heart of this discussion:
Does that mean we have to bear the same fruit as the tree we were grafted into? 
Or does it mean we will be different from the rest of the tree?


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## Lowjack (Oct 8, 2009)

farmasis said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Low, this was spoken to Jews, but a promise to his people. His people REJECTED him. God made a new covenant and included the grafted into the vine. Gentiles and Jews that believe in Jesus are all brought into his fold. God's first chosen is still Israel, and he will use this relationship to cause jealousy in Israel to bring them back.
> 
> ...



What Makes me think They were Gentiles ?, Because the Word says They perished in the Flood , there were no Jews
Or Israelites at that time, Noah Was not a Jew or an Israelite, Brother I pray God gives you a higher discernment.

God never made a covenant with you that was solely to be With Judah and the House of Israel

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:Jer 31;31

When Jesus was in The Land there was only one tribe that remained ,the tribe of Judah, See Josephus The Historian.
The Covenant he made with the apostles who were Israelites from That Tribe his own at The Last Super.

You Received Grace By faith , not a covenant.
You are a Co-heir of the promises To Abraham , that in him all nations would be blessed, be happy they rejected him otherwise no gentile would be save.
You are a grafted entity into Israel not vise Versa.
Salvation doesn't come because I may be Jewish, God saved Israel always By Grace, that is a mis conception Must Church people have; The Law was never Given to be a tool of Salvation, it was given to sanctify a people, for his OWN ! No one can be saved by following the Law Of The US, Neither can anyone be saved by Following the Law To Israel.
The Prayers that Jews Repeat in many occasions include the statement; Blessed are thou Father who has sanctified us through your Commands" It doesn't say Saved us through His Commandments.
Sanctify means "separated us" from all other Nations to be his cherished possession eternally.

A Jew does not need to stop being Jew and Convert to any other religion to be saved or customs of another society, a Jew just needs to add the Messiah to his belief, while Gentiles do need to accept The Christ and Believe in The God and Father of Israel, sorry I'm taking my gloves off , but you all need to hear this.

The Reasons Must Jews do not listen to a gentile about Jesus is because of that very statement you made, Christ didn't come to turn Jews into Gentile Christians, all scripture show the Apostles continued to keep the Covenant and traditions, Paul is the one who speaks about  the law as done away with, that will be his problem when Judgment comes, if he was saying that to Jews, but I know he wasn't, he was saying it to gentiles, who do not need to become Jews to be saved.
# 1 Mistake when you witness to a Jew, is to use a Hellenize Messiah's name, Jesus is not a Jewish name, it has no translatable Hebrew meaning. SO a Jew is not going to accept readily a gentile name as their messiah.
Second you bring him to your church and he sees crosses and Images painted on walls, which goes against the commandments he has received from God.
Then the songs worship the cross and worships the Messiah ,instead of God the Father, that is worshiping another Human, first impression shock to them, They need the Holy Spirit to reveal the True Messiah as to who he was.

But that attitude has served the gentiles 2000 years of advantage to find FREE Salvation, But I tell you those days are over, the true Messiah is being preached by Messianic Jews in a matter in which they can understand and receive Him.


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## Lowjack (Oct 8, 2009)

earl said:


> ''I'm going to start charging for this''' Yes sir buddy . That Christ like attitude just shines right through.




Get over Buddy, you don't know Christ and you don't know me either, so why not read and learn and maybe God will convict your heart.
I sthat all you can think of , Criticizing a Joke ?
Get thee behind me Hasatan.


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## farmasis (Oct 8, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> What Makes me think They were Gentiles ?, Because the Word says They perished in the Flood , there were no Jews
> Or Israelites at that time, Noah Was not a Jew or an Israelite, Brother I pray God gives you a higher discernment.


 
Brother, I pray the same for you!

Let me get this straight. The only ones held captive, in your opinion, were the ones who died at the time of Noah. Correct?

What about everyone else held in Sheol?



> God never made a covenant with you that was solely to be With Judah and the House of Israel
> 
> Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:Jer 31;31
> 
> ...


 
Maybe Jeremiah misspoke.  Seriously, because God promises a new covenant with two houses, he does not say only two houses.

Grace is the new covenant.

*<SUP>28</SUP>* For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matt. 26)

*<SUP>20</SUP>* Likewise He also _took_ the cup after supper, saying, “This cup _is_ the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. (Luke 22)

And gentiles are no longer foreigners, but have been brought into the House of God!

19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, (Eph 2)



> You are a Co-heir of the promises To Abraham , that in him all nations would be blessed, be happy they rejected him otherwise no gentile would be save.


 
You say that like God was surprised. It was God's plan all along for gentiles to be saved. You make it sound like if Jews were obedient gentiles would perish.



> You are a grafted entity into Israel not vise Versa.


 
NO, NO, NO!! Grafted into the true vine. Israel is NOT the true vine. Christ Jesus is! Israel is a natural branch and gentiles are an unnatural branch.

 <SUP id=en-NKJV-26697 class=versenum>*1*</SUP> “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. <SUP id=en-NKJV-26698 class=versenum>*2*</SUP> Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> and every _branch_ that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. <SUP id=en-NKJV-26699 class=versenum>*3*</SUP> You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. <SUP id=en-NKJV-26700 class=versenum>*4*</SUP> Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
<SUP id=en-NKJV-26701 class=versenum>*5*</SUP> “I am the vine, you _are_ the branches. (John 15)

*<SUP>17</SUP>* And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, <SUP id=en-NKJV-28224 class=versenum>*18*</SUP> do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, _remember that_ you do not support the root, but the root _supports_ you. 
<SUP id=en-NKJV-28225 class=versenum>*19*</SUP> You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” <SUP id=en-NKJV-28226 class=versenum>*20*</SUP> Well _said._ Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28227 class=versenum>*21*</SUP> For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28228 class=versenum>*22*</SUP> Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,<SUP class=footnote value='[f]'>[f]</SUP> if you continue in _His_ goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28229 class=versenum>*23*</SUP> And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28230 class=versenum>*24*</SUP> For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who _are_ natural _branches,_ be grafted into their own olive tree? (Romans 11)



> A Jew does not need to stop being Jew and Convert to any other religion to be saved or customs of another society, a Jew just needs to add the Messiah to his belief, while Gentiles do need to accept The Christ and Believe in The God and Father of Israel, sorry I'm taking my gloves off , but you all need to hear this.


 
What is the difference? Sure a Jew can continue to be a Jew. That is what I am saying. But, you must add Christ to be covcered through grace. I do not have to join any religion also. Religion is a man made function.



> The Reasons Must Jews do not listen to a gentile about Jesus is because of that very statement you made, Christ didn't come to turn Jews into Gentile Christians, all scripture show the Apostles continued to keep the Covenant and traditions, Paul is the one who speaks about the law as done away with, that will be his problem when Judgment comes, if he was saying that to Jews, but I know he wasn't, he was saying it to gentiles, who do not need to become Jews to be saved.


 
What statement did I make that made you think I believe Christ came to make Jews gentile Christians??? He came to make them Christian. You added gentile.



> # 1 Mistake when you witness to a Jew, is to use a Hellenize Messiah's name, Jesus is not a Jewish name, it has no translatable Hebrew meaning. SO a Jew is not going to accept readily a gentile name as their messiah.
> Second you bring him to your church and he sees crosses and Images painted on walls, which goes against the commandments he has received from God.
> Then the songs worship the cross and worships the Messiah ,instead of God the Father, that is worshiping another Human, first impression shock to them, They need the Holy Spirit to reveal the True Messiah as to who he was.


 
How many Jews accepted him in person? It doesn't matter his name. If someone does not accept the truth, he rejects Christ.
Sure we worship Jesus because Christ is GOD!



> But that attitude has served the gentiles 2000 years of advantage to find FREE Salvation, But I tell you those days are over, the true Messiah is being preached by Messianic Jews in a matter in which they can understand and receive Him.


 
Are you saying I do not believe in the true Messiah?


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## Lowjack (Oct 9, 2009)

Oi Vey Brother you don't understand, I'm sorry.
Whom did Jesus sit with for the last supper ?

Who was the New Covenant to be made with.
The Church does not appear in any Prophecy.
Yes The Pophecy is that the Covenant was with Judah and the House of Israel, Gentiles are neither.
Gentiles are grafted in and co-heirs, but gentiles are neither the House Of Israel nor The Tribe of Judah, anyone who teaches that is teaching false doctrine.

Im done !


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## farmasis (Oct 9, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Oi Vey Brother you don't understand, I'm sorry.
> Whom did Jesus sit with for the last supper ?
> 
> Who was the New Covenant to be made with.
> ...


 
Would love for you to answer and comment on a few of these.

1) Are you saying I do not believe in the true Messiah? 

2) NO, NO, NO!! Grafted into the true vine. Israel is NOT the true vine. Christ Jesus is! Jews are a natural branch and gentiles are an unnatural branch.

3) Grace is the new covenant.

4) Let me get this straight. The only ones held captive, in your opinion, were the ones who died at the time of Noah. Correct?
What about everyone else held in Sheol?


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## earl (Oct 9, 2009)

Where is the teacher ?


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## Lowjack (Oct 9, 2009)

1) Are you saying I do not believe in the true Messiah? 
 Where did I said that ? I think you are confused touching Israel's roll and covenant, that has nothing to do with you being saved.
2) NO, NO, NO!! Grafted into the true vine. Israel is NOT the true vine. Christ Jesus is! Jews are a natural branch and gentiles are an unnatural branch.
You are grafted into the olive tree which is Israel, a Vine cannot be grafted, I don't think I said that,
The Word is clear about that Romans 11.
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.


17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;


18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.


19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.


20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:


21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
So in Fact you are a JEW whether you recognize it or not, LOL


3) Grace is the new covenant.

Nope, Grace existed even before Christ died, Israel was saved by Grace not the law.
The New Covenant is that The Blood of the MEssiah would remove all sins, From Jews and Gentiles.
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.


29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.( THe OLd Covenant still remains for jews, because God said it was perpetual with them, he didn't repent and cause the old to go away, but to the gentile he does not have to worry about the old.


4) Let me get this straight. The only ones held captive, in your opinion, were the ones who died at the time of Noah. Correct?
What about everyone else held in Sheol?[/QUOTE]
3rd Time I say, what the word says,

1 Pter 3.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water

Now if you have any Bible Prove that he saved others , then I will like to see and I will rejoice with you.

Shalom


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## Lowjack (Oct 9, 2009)

earl said:


> Where is the teacher ?



On Sick leave.
You miss me huh ?


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## Inthegarge (Oct 9, 2009)

Thr problem here that Low is trying to make the Jews superior to "Gentile Christians." You have done a great job using scripture but Low doesn't know how to read both the New and the Old Testament. Why did Paul and others go to the Gentiles, because God sent them. His Chosen People continued to deny Him. His plan was for the "Gospel" (Good News of Christ) was to be preached to every person (Mt says go into ALL the world). He admits that a Jew does not have to accept Christ to be saved because they are under the Covenant they continually rejected. The way I read this is that he is putting the Jews above other Christians. No use in discussing, He is a Jew and therefore correct.....JMHO RW


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## earl (Oct 9, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> EEEEEh WRONG ! No gentile is under the Law.
> So what sin is it that you live under ?



For this to be true all gentiles would have to be Christians according to your Let us reason Ministries.

1 Timothy 1:8-11: “But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.” 

    THis scripture seems to include Jews,Gentiles ,and all other residents of Planet Earth. Exept Christians.
  Or is Timothy as confused as Paul ????


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## earl (Oct 9, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Hey this is getting good and I'm learning a lot...y'all keep it up.
> I don't like arguing but this is a great debate.  I can see both sides.





Seeing both sides doesn't work with the bible. You may want to dig into your bible or you could wind up visiting where you mistakedly think I am going. Dear.


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## earl (Oct 9, 2009)

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
So in Fact you are a JEW whether you recognize it or not, LOL


Wrong . You are a Christian. Being a Jew will not save you .If it would you would have no need to convert to Christianity.


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## earl (Oct 9, 2009)

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.( THe OLd Covenant still remains for jews, because God said it was perpetual with them, he didn't repent and cause the old to go away, but to the gentile he does not have to worry about the old.


I won't argue too much with this one ,but I will remind you of John 3 : 16. Being a Jew will not get you saved under law ,under grace, or under the back porch. And that my fine friend cannot be denied or argued by any one who can read the bible.


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## earl (Oct 9, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> On Sick leave.
> You miss me huh ?





In a weird way, yes. I wouldn't want it on my concience  if you woke up tomorrow on the wrong side of the gates saying ,Oy vey .I sure missed that one ,while TEOTWAWKI occurs.


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## BeenHuntn (Oct 9, 2009)

earl said:


> 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.( THe OLd Covenant still remains for jews, because God said it was perpetual with them, he didn't repent and cause the old to go away, but to the gentile he does not have to worry about the old.
> 
> 
> I won't argue too much with this one ,but I will remind you of John 3 : 16. Being a Jew will not get you saved under law ,under grace, or under the back porch. And that my fine friend cannot be denied or argued by any one who can read the bible.



earl, you sure do know a lotta Scripture to be such an unbeliever...  most unbelievers are unbelievers because of their ignorance of Scripture and the Gospel.

Hosea 4:6 "My people perish from a lack of knowledge"...

you do not lack knowledge. but you refuse to believe...

what happened in your past to turn you away from God...?

just curious...


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## Lowjack (Oct 9, 2009)

Inthegarge said:


> Thr problem here that Low is trying to make the Jews superior to "Gentile Christians." You have done a great job using scripture but Low doesn't know how to read both the New and the Old Testament. Why did Paul and others go to the Gentiles, because God sent them. His Chosen People continued to deny Him. His plan was for the "Gospel" (Good News of Christ) was to be preached to every person (Mt says go into ALL the world). He admits that a Jew does not have to accept Christ to be saved because they are under the Covenant they continually rejected. The way I read this is that he is putting the Jews above other Christians. No use in discussing, He is a Jew and therefore correct.....JMHO RW



You also Misunderstand what I said, problem you think Salvation is dying and going to heaven, Salvation to those in Christ is that, life after life.
Salvation to the Jew through the Covenant is possessing the  Land as fulfilling the Abrahamic covenant and that they will get when the Messiah comes and all of Israel will resurrect and partake in this earthly salvation.
While we who believed by faith will have a different status in the kingdom as transformed beings, so who is superior then being in an eternal body ?, if you read without looking for defects in me, you will see the perfection of God's word.


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## Lowjack (Oct 9, 2009)

earl said:


> 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.( THe OLd Covenant still remains for jews, because God said it was perpetual with them, he didn't repent and cause the old to go away, but to the gentile he does not have to worry about the old.
> 
> 
> I won't argue too much with this one ,but I will remind you of John 3 : 16. Being a Jew will not get you saved under law ,under grace, or under the back porch. And that my fine friend cannot be denied or argued by any one who can read the bible.



I beg to differ.
I believe the entire word of God , when he said and all of Israel shall be saved, and when he said teh entire house of Israel will resurrect a,I believe that.


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## earl (Oct 9, 2009)

My dad was a bootleg Southern Baptist preacher. There are some things you can beat into a child. A man is a whole nother matter.
 I firmly believe ANY knowledge is a good thing ,but I don't believe or endorse every thing I learn.


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## earl (Oct 9, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> I beg to differ.
> I believe the entire word of God , when he said and all of Israel shall be saved, and when he said teh entire house of Israel will resurrect a,I believe that.




You are talking to the wrong person. I have nothing more to do with your salvatiion than you being Jewish. I will leave that statement for the time being to the true Christians that use this forum. When you convince them that there is more than one way ,we may have to discuss this a little further.

  You go ahead and cling to the OT and the Torah . You are in for a big surprise if Christianity is the one and only way.


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## farmasis (Oct 9, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> 1) Are you saying I do not believe in the true Messiah?
> Where did I said that ? I think you are confused touching Israel's roll and covenant, that has nothing to do with you being saved.




"But that attitude has served the gentiles 2000 years of advantage to find FREE Salvation, But I tell you those days are over, the true Messiah is being preached by Messianic Jews in a matter in which they can understand and receive Him."

I was just wondering what you meant by the true Messiah being preached by Messianic Jews.



> 2) NO, NO, NO!! Grafted into the true vine. Israel is NOT the true vine. Christ Jesus is! Jews are a natural branch and gentiles are an unnatural branch.
> You are grafted into the olive tree which is Israel, a Vine cannot be grafted, I don't think I said that,
> The Word is clear about that Romans 11.
> 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
> ...




We are not grafted into Israel. Branches were removed to make way for gentiles. We are grafted into the true vine, which is Christ- not Israel. See John 15:1-5.



> 3) Grace is the new covenant.
> 
> Nope, Grace existed even before Christ died, Israel was saved by Grace not the law.
> The New Covenant is that The Blood of the MEssiah would remove all sins, From Jews and Gentiles.
> ...


 
Sorry to disappoint you, but the old covenant is gone!

 <SUP id=en-NIV-30090 class=versenum>*13*</SUP>By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. (Hebrews 8)
It disappeared when Jesus rose. And Yes, Jesus blood is the new covenant as described in Matt 26:28, Luke 22:20



> 4) Let me get this straight. The only ones held captive, in your opinion, were the ones who died at the time of Noah. Correct?
> What about everyone else held in Sheol?


3rd Time I say, what the word says,

1 Pter 3.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water

Now if you have any Bible Prove that he saved others , then I will like to see and I will rejoice with you.

Shalom[/quote]

*<SUP>7</SUP>* But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. <SUP id=en-NKJV-29277 class=versenum>*8*</SUP> Therefore He says: 


_“ When He ascended on high,_
_He led captivity captive,_
_And gave gifts to men.” _(Eph. 4)

As you know, Sheol was the resting place of the dead whom God showed mercy to, and Hades was the place of torment for the remaining. (see Luke 16:19-31)

We know Christ descended, preached to the spirits held in prison (from 1 Peter 3:18-20) and then took captivity captive with him when he ascended. The passage confuses some when mentioning Noah, but that passage is for 2 reasons, to demonstrate God's long suffering, and to show some where saved through water physically with Noah and family and now symbolically with the baptism of the Holy Spirit


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 9, 2009)

While I enjoy LJ's perspective on things, I will say that I am in no way convicted at all to be under the law. Of course, I am a gentile. I don't know what I would do if I were a Jew. I do know that it is a sin to act against one's conscience. 
I also know that I am thankful that God grafted me in and saved me along with his chosen!!


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## Lowjack (Oct 9, 2009)

earl said:


> 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
> So in Fact you are a JEW whether you recognize it or not, LOL
> 
> 
> Wrong . You are a Christian. Being a Jew will not save you .If it would you would have no need to convert to Christianity.



True and False, but if Rely on the Covenant only , my reward would be an earthly reward, while If Look unto the Messiah my reward is a heavenly reward the heavenly City which Abraham also sought.


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## Lowjack (Oct 9, 2009)

"But that attitude has served the gentiles 2000 years of advantage to find FREE Salvation, But I tell you those days are over, the true Messiah is being preached by Messianic Jews in a matter in which they can understand and receive Him."

I was just wondering what you meant by the true Messiah being preached by Messianic Jews.

We Preach a Jewish Messiah, not a hellenized Messiah . 
[/COLOR]

We are not grafted into Israel. Branches were removed to make way for gentiles. We are grafted into the true vine, which is Christ- not Israel. See John 15:1-5.
Oi vey! , my brother you are grafted into the tree which is Israel the branches are the members of Israel, the vine is never grafted.
Find me a verse that says your are grafted into the vine.


Sorry to disappoint you, but the old covenant is gone!
Sorry to dissapoint you, but God doesn't change he is inmutable and the Covenant To Israel is PERPEUAL, just which part of perpetual you don't grasp ?

 <SUP id=en-NIV-30090 class=versenum>*13*</SUP>By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. (Hebrews 8)
It disappeared when Jesus rose. And Yes, Jesus blood is the new covenant as described in Matt 26:28, Luke 22:20
 Pauls' Idea is quite interesting but as Peter said some of his teachings were not understandable

3rd Time I say, what the word says,

1 Pter 3.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water

Now if you have any Bible Prove that he saved others , then I will like to see and I will rejoice with you.

Shalom[/quote]

*<SUP>7</SUP>* But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. <SUP id=en-NKJV-29277 class=versenum>*8*</SUP> Therefore He says: 


_“ When He ascended on high,_
_He led captivity captive,_
_And gave gifts to men.” _(Eph. 4)

As you know, Sheol was the resting place of the dead whom God showed mercy to, and Hades was the place of torment for the remaining. (see Luke 16:19-31)

Not quite correct.
"Sheol" is the Tomb the hole in the Ground, rest for the flesh to be destroyed by worms and bacteria.
"Pardes or Paradise in where the Soul goes to rest until teh resurrection.
Hades is a greek word not Hebrew.
Gehena is the equivalent of Hades in Hebrew.






We know Christ descended, preached to the spirits held in prison (from 1 Peter 3:18-20) and then took captivity captive with him when he ascended. The passage confuses some when mentioning Noah, but that passage is for 2 reasons, to demonstrate God's long suffering, and to show some where saved through water physically with Noah and family and now symbolically with the baptism of the Holy Spirit[/QUOTE]
Maybe And I hope so,But that is then a presedence for the doctrine of Universal Salvation"No one goes to HAdes ?
Which is in line with Jewish believe and atonement practices.


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## farmasis (Oct 10, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> "But that attitude has served the gentiles 2000 years of advantage to find FREE Salvation, But I tell you those days are over, the true Messiah is being preached by Messianic Jews in a matter in which they can understand and receive Him."
> 
> I was just wondering what you meant by the true Messiah being preached by Messianic Jews.
> 
> We Preach a Jewish Messiah, not a hellenized Messiah .


 
But is He not the same one? I hope that you feel He is the same, but that only the presentation is changed.



> We are not grafted into Israel. Branches were removed to make way for gentiles. We are grafted into the true vine, which is Christ- not Israel. See John 15:1-5.
> Oi vey! , my brother you are grafted into the tree which is Israel the branches are the members of Israel, the vine is never grafted.
> Find me a verse that says your are grafted into the vine.




Why not just read the one provided? Christ is the vine, and we are the branches. It is right there in the scripture. God is the one that prunes. Interested in seeing if you explain this scripture away with mistransliteration or that Jesus misspoke.

 <SUP id=en-NKJV-26697 class=versenum>*1*</SUP> “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. <SUP id=en-NKJV-26698 class=versenum>*2*</SUP> Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> and every _branch_ that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. <SUP id=en-NKJV-26699 class=versenum>*3*</SUP> You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. <SUP id=en-NKJV-26700 class=versenum>*4*</SUP> Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
<SUP id=en-NKJV-26701 class=versenum>*5*</SUP> “I am the vine, you _are_ the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. (John 15)



> Sorry to disappoint you, but the old covenant is gone!
> Sorry to dissapoint you, but God doesn't change he is inmutable and the Covenant To Israel is PERPEUAL, just which part of perpetual you don't grasp ?




God didn't change, the covenant did. Because Israel did not keep the first covenant, God made another and he replaced the first.
It also says so in scripture. Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. It did what the old covenant could not do, it provided grace through faith.

*<SUP>7</SUP>* For if that first _covenant_ had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. <SUP id=en-NKJV-30097 class=versenum>*8*</SUP> Because finding fault with them, He says: _“Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—_ <SUP id=en-NKJV-30098 class=versenum>*9*</SUP> _not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. _
<SUP id=en-NIV-30090 class=versenum>*13*</SUP>By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. (Hebrews 8)

  <SUP id=en-NKJV-30116 class=versenum>*14*</SUP> how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? <SUP id=en-NKJV-30117 class=versenum>*15*</SUP> And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. (Hebrews 9)


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## Lowjack (Oct 10, 2009)

earl said:


> You are talking to the wrong person. I have nothing more to do with your salvatiion than you being Jewish. I will leave that statement for the time being to the true Christians that use this forum. When you convince them that there is more than one way ,we may have to discuss this a little further.
> 
> You go ahead and cling to the OT and the Torah . You are in for a big surprise if Christianity is the one and only way.



So will you Not believing in either and interferring so the message is clear.


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## Lowjack (Oct 10, 2009)

farmasis said:


> But is He not the same one? I hope that you feel He is the same, but that only the presentation is changed.
> 
> [/COLOR]
> 
> ...



Yes But still the Covenant is with Judah and Israel, in order for you to be a branch you must accept the Messiah, so you have, so who preaches to Jews ?


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## earl (Oct 10, 2009)

Who is making the message unclear ? You challenge the man to show you the vine, He does ,and you act like he didn't respond.  YOU said there was no vine. Is that clear ?


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## Lowjack (Oct 10, 2009)

The Olive and Israel's Spiritual History

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IN CONTRAST WITH the vine which has a horizontal growth, the olive grows vertically toward heaven. That the olive tree is associated symbolically with the spiritual history of Israel is stated with equal explicitness in Scripture. The choice of such a tree is most appropriate, for it is from its fruit that olive oil is obtained, and this is the oil of anointing which symbolizes the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

The very first mention of the tree is, not unexpectedly, in connection with the restoration of the earth after the Flood. Noah sends out a dove, and the dove returns with an olive leaf (Gen. 8:10,11). Both the dove and the leaf reinforce the spiritual implications, the emergence of new life. Because God has always left Himself with some witness in Israel in times of direst judgment, the prophets in foretelling what would happen to the nation because of their disobedience speak of the cutting down of the vine and the fig tree and their destruction in the land; but never is it stated that the olive tree will suffer such total uprooting. Thus Jeremiah, the prophet of doom, added the warning (in Jer. 11:16) that although the green olive would suffer in this coming judgment, he does not speak of its total destruction, but warns only that the branches of it will be broken.

This seems to be the basis of the simile used by Paul in Romans 11:17-27:

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear:

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written; There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

It is evident from this passage that there is a time of restoration coming, a time in which the spiritual life of Israel will be renewed just as their national life will be renewed. The olive tree will become wholly itself again, and the vine will once more bear its fruit as originally planned. Israel will become the head of the nations: and Israel will be the spiritual center of all human societies.

It may be argued that Paul says to the Romans that the olive tree suffered the loss of some of its branches because of their unbelief, and that this would imply that the olive tree is simply an alternative symbol for Israel as a nation, since one would not expect unbelief among "believers." The force of this argument seems strong enough, until one observes that Paul warns the believers to whom he is writing that they too might suffer the same fate (vv. 20-22). Can a believer lose his spiritual birthright? There are some who believe this possible. Personally I rest in the assurance that what the Lord does, He does forever (Eccl. 3:14) and that the believer is eternally secure. I think there is another kind of "cutting off" which a believer may, however, suffer at the hand of God: this is his removal, the foreclosure of his continuance on earth. In fact, the New Testament is full of passages which carry a warning of this possibility to those who are Christians.

For example, consider the case of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:3,4). That these two had become Christians is surely to be inferred from the fact that Peter accused them of lying to the Holy Spirit and to God. In fact, they are illustrations of how we who are Christians may be judged now in order that we may not need to be judged when the world is (I Cor. 11:32). It is possible, then, for a child of God to see everything that he has done perish in the flames of God's examination, yet even so (and here are the most comforting words) he himself shall be saved (I Cor. 3:12-15).

In I Corinthians 11:29,30 Paul speaks of those who defiled the Lord's Table and brought condemnation on themselves, for which very cause "many sleep." Again, in I Corinthians 3:17 the same writer remarks, "If any man defile the Temple of God, him shall God destroy." There were times when the saints were admonished to see that this occurred. In certain circumstances it was their duty "to deliver such an one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (I Cor. 5:5).

It was possible, in fact, for a mature Christian to do something which was safe for himself but could not safely be copied by a weaker Christian who, being defiled, would "perish" (I Cor. 8:11). Paul himself said one should not eat any food if the example created thereby endangered the life of a brother in Christ (Rom. 14:15). It is good to submit to the chastening of God when we go astray and to accept His correction--and live (Heb. 12:9). Sometimes we are too blind to see the reasons why we are being chastened, until a brother points them out to us. James says that such a brother "may save a soul from death" (5:19,20). Remember that in this passage it is a brother in the Lord who is being persuaded to repent of his ways, and the death which he escapes by his action is a physical death, a premature taking home.

I believe there are circumstances in which the waywardness of a child of God reaches such disastrous proportions that the Lord is left no alternative but to remove him "that his soul may be saved." Other saints may be praying for such a one, but John says there is a point of no return: there is a "sin unto death" for which prayer is useless (I John 5:16,17). Yet he hastened to add, because we are all failing in one way or another, that the case is exceptional and God is long-suffering, and there is sin which does not lead to such a drastic termination: "there is sin that is not unto death."

It should once more be emphasized here that such "cutting off" when applied to believers does not in the least imply a loss of salvation. I know there is controversy on this issue, but for myself eternal security is part of the believer's heritage. This "cutting off" has to do solely with physical life. Such people as Ananias and Sapphira were removed, taken home, to prevent an injury to the Body of Christ which it could not at that time possibly sustain. Moreover, in these passages it is not always unbelief that brings disaster; sometimes it is disobedience in some specific matter; sometimes it is simply irreverence. In any case, it appears that when the body of believers was small, God did not allow the continued existence of Christians who were defiling or might defile the church. They were removed.

To return to the symbolism of this brief survey, these were branches of the olive "cut off." The olive tree was a spiritual organism, and though these branches were properly part of the tree, they had become diseased and endangered its life.

In Zechariah 4:11-14 and again in Revelation 11:4, two olive trees symbolize two anointed ones, two spiritual beings who stood before the Lord.

In Psalm 52:8 David likens himself to an olive tree, and in Psalm 128:3 he speaks of the children of a godly household as being olive plants round about the table.

The olive tree is a slow-growing tree--unlike the vine-- requiring years of patient labor before reaching full fruitfulness. Consequently its growth implies a certain degree of settledness and stability in the community, and hence its association with the idea of peace. The beauty of the tree is referred to in Jeremiah 11:16 and in Hosea 14:6 and yet--and surely this is deeply significant--the most fruitful of these trees are the product of bare and rocky ground. The cultivation of them requires a great deal of attention, constant pruning is necessary, and fruit comes very late in the year.

The oil itself was greatly used for anointing, to freshen and revive (Ps. 23:5 and Matt. 6:17), and it was used for the healing of wounds. A third important use was for illumination (Matt. 25:3). Thus it provided comfort, healing, and light. Moreover, olive wood was much valued for fuel. It is no wonder, therefore, that God chose the olive to stand for the spiritual element in Israel's history.

Although it is not explicitly stated in Genesis, I think it quite possible that the Tree of Life (whose leaves are for healing--Rev. 22:2) may have been an olive tree.

Corrections, April 30, 1997. 

Arthur Constance.


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## Lowjack (Oct 10, 2009)

earl said:


> Who is making the message unclear ? You challenge the man to show you the vine, He does ,and you act like he didn't respond.  YOU said there was no vine. Is that clear ?



I didn't say there was no Vine I said the Gentiles are not grafted into the vine, it is ovious if you keep these statements in context ,Jesus was speaking to his disciples not to the gentile Church, While Paul uses the tree as Israel Symbol and grafts each individual gentile to the tree, which is Israel.
While Jesus calls his disciples Part of Him "The Vine"
1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 
( It is Ovious the YOU are the apostles, they were Clean because of the words he spoke to them)
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. (John 15)


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## earl (Oct 10, 2009)

''Find me a verse that says your are grafted into the vine.''

This is from YOUR POST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 Is it a Hebrew thing to deny your own words????????????This isn't a spoken conversation where you can say I didn't hear you correctly. You actually type words and hit the send button. Then you deny it. These are not the actions of a sane ,rational person.


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## Lowjack (Oct 10, 2009)

earl said:


> ''Find me a verse that says your are grafted into the vine.''
> 
> This is from YOUR POST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Is it a Hebrew thing to deny your own words????????????This isn't a spoken conversation where you can say I didn't hear you correctly. You actually type words and hit the send button. Then you deny it. These are not the actions of a sane ,rational person.



Oi Vey what's in that head of yours ?, It doesn't say he is grafted into the vine, Jesus was speaking directly to his disciples.
This are not the actions of someone sane and with the Holy Spirit to grasp the word rightly Divided.
These are the actions of someone trying to take people of base and cause anger, get thee behind me Hasatan !


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## earl (Oct 10, 2009)

I have no toleration for a person who doesn't stand behind what he says . You enjoy your sabbath. The one that you only rest on. No work. That started at sun down. Last  night.


Shazzam.


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## Lowjack (Oct 10, 2009)

I have no TOLERATION FOR THE NON SPIRITUAL DISCUSSING SPIRITUAL THINGS EITHER, ENJOY WHATEVER IT IS YOU DO.
 I stand behind what I said and mean what I mean, not what you think I mean.


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## BeenHuntn (Oct 10, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> I have no TOLERATION FOR THE NON SPIRITUAL DISCUSSING SPIRITUAL THINGS EITHER, ENJOY WHATEVER IT IS YOU DO.
> I stand behind what I said and mean what I mean, not what you think I mean.



we're gonna have to separate you two... go stand in the corner... both of you!


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## Israel (Oct 10, 2009)

"Wait" he said, trying to get his intellectual leg over him,
"if you won't engage in reasonable discussion of the issues, how can we ever come to some understanding? And besides, your irrational responses do nothing to further the conversation"
That's the last thing he said before the tower fell and plunged them all to their demise.
Not a tear was shed, not a cry arose as they all fell earthward.
One man stood at the gate and muttered, "I guess we've all seen enough of that".


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 10, 2009)

I think LJ was trying to say Jesus was referring to the Jewish disciples being already in the vine in John, and Paul was talking about gentiles being grafted into the tree of Israel.   

I am confused as to why it matters.


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## Lowjack (Oct 10, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> I think LJ was trying to say Jesus was referring to the Jewish disciples being already in the vine in John, and Paul was talking about gentiles being grafted into the tree of Israel.
> 
> I am confused as to why it matters.


The Commision and Power Given to the apostles were directly given By Jesus, such as Forgiving sin, binding and loosing in Heaven and in earth, the Church had not being established yet.


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## BeenHuntn (Oct 10, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> The Commision and Power Given to the apostles were directly given By Jesus, such as Forgiving sin, binding and loosing in Heaven and in earth, the Church had not being established yet.



you are saying that "binding and loosing" was capable by the Apostles b/c it was already established in Heaven right???

we cant do anything on our own....  right?


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## Lowjack (Oct 10, 2009)

Nope can't do anything on our own, we have authority by The Name of Yeshua and according to what the Holy Spirit allows.


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## BeenHuntn (Oct 10, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Nope can't do anything on our own, we have authority by The Name of Yeshua and according to what the Holy Spirit allows.



ok, i just wanted to be sure... i thought that was what you meant,,,,


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