# Hunting chimps; good stewarding?



## ambush80 (Jan 7, 2010)

I asked this question in the General Hunting section and realized that it had spiritual implications, particularly for Christians who have been instructed to be stewards of all God's creatures.

According to the Bible, is it OK to hunt and kill chimps?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 7, 2010)

Why wouldn't it be?    They're animals, no different than a deer.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 7, 2010)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Why wouldn't it be?    They're animals, no different than a deer.



Please review the post from the General Hunting forum and discuss.  I don't want to have to re-type the whole thing here.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=4474709#post4474709


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 7, 2010)

I browsed the other thread....

As for me, I'd have to agree with the one poster, that it would feel weird eating what resembled a human baby.    That would take getting used to.

I wouldn't feel it was 'sin', or that I was eating/killing something in my family tree, though!   

Interesting question....one I'd never thought about.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 7, 2010)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I browsed the other thread....
> 
> As for me, I'd have to agree with the one poster, that it would feel weird eating what resembled a human baby.    That would take getting used to.
> 
> ...



What about the sport hunting aspect of it?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 7, 2010)

Hard to see 'sport' in it.....unless they are very elusive.   Never saw much sport in hunting animals that lived in trees....except for squirrels.   lol

I doubt I'd hunt one if there were other things to eat.   I don't know what's involved in a monkey hunt, but it can't be that challenging IMO.


----------



## gtparts (Jan 7, 2010)

This is a cultural matter, not spiritual. 

Let the General Hunting Forum beat this stillborn equine. 

btw, how many chimps can you get on your Big Green Egg, ambush?


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 7, 2010)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Hard to see 'sport' in it.....unless they are very elusive.   Never saw much sport in hunting animals that lived in trees....except for squirrels.   lol
> 
> I doubt I'd hunt one if there were other things to eat.   I don't know what's involved in a monkey hunt, but it can't be that challenging IMO.



Not monkeys, chimps or gorillas.  What if you trained them to use a weapon first?   Or taught them sign language and then explained to them that you were going to release them and then hunt them down to kill them.  I imagine given their intelligence that they would make for some elusive quarry.


----------



## dbodkin (Jan 7, 2010)

I bet they taste like chicken.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 7, 2010)

gtparts said:


> This is a cultural matter, not spiritual.
> 
> Let the General Hunting Forum beat this stillborn equine.
> 
> btw, how many chimps can you get on your Big Green Egg, ambush?



Au contraire, when framed in the context of stewardship, which in my mind means man's relationship to animals, this is a very relevant spiritual issue.  This is actually the most relevant spiritual question I can imagine for a hunting site. 

Forget the chimp eating for a second and concentrate on the sport hunting aspect.  

What would Jesus think about hunting trained chimps?

I think a quarter of a chimp at a time on the Green Egg.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 7, 2010)

dbodkin said:


> I bet they taste like chicken.




As I understand it, the closer an animal is to your own biological make up, the more readily it is absorbed as nutrients.


----------



## gtparts (Jan 7, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Au contraire, when framed in the context of stewardship, which in my mind means man's relationship to animals, this is a very relevant spiritual issue.  This is actually the most relevant spiritual question I can imagine for a hunting site.
> 
> Forget the chimp eating for a second and concentrate on the sport hunting aspect.
> 
> ...



What does it matter to you what Jesus thinks re. chimp hunting?  

Oh, I get it. You don't really care. You want to know what Christians think. Well, I think that "This is a cultural matter, not spiritual. Let the General Hunting Forum beat this stillborn equine. "


----------



## earl (Jan 7, 2010)

Domesticate them and then herd them like cats.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 7, 2010)

gtparts said:


> What does it matter to you what Jesus thinks re. chimp hunting?
> 
> Oh, I get it. You don't really care. You want to know what Christians think. Well, I think that "This is a cultural matter, not spiritual. Let the General Hunting Forum beat this stillborn equine. "



Why are you reluctant to discuss the spiritual ramifications of this issue; because there are many, whether one is Christian or Atheist?  Furthermore, you keep calling this a "dead horse" subject.  I don't recall ever seeing a subject for discussion of this nature.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 7, 2010)

earl said:


> Domesticate them and then herd them like cats.




There are potentially way more interesting uses for them.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 7, 2010)

If they could shoot back I'd avoid the woods.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 7, 2010)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> If they could shoot back I'd avoid the woods.




Well, there you go.  Someone else might think it is the ultimate in sport hunting.  Some people enjoy hunting dangerous game particularly for the danger aspect.  A trained chimp with a gun; now that would be the pinnacle of dangerous game.

What are the spiritual implications of hunting an animal with that kind of intelligence?


----------



## WTM45 (Jan 7, 2010)

I'd think if it is a tool used for management of the species it would be a cultural issue and would be subject to public opinion just like deer hunting is.  The cultural influence that affects legislation making determination of an animal as "game" or "protected" is the key factor.

If someone really wants a challenge, join a standing army and hunt people in the name of "defending the country" or "promoting _________" (fill in the blank with your chosen term here.)

Would any deity question the actions of soldiers defending their lives?


----------



## gtparts (Jan 7, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Why are you reluctant to discuss the spiritual ramifications of this issue; because there are many, whether one is Christian or Atheist?  Furthermore, you keep calling this a "dead horse" subject.  I don't recall ever seeing a subject for discussion of this nature.



I said "stillborn", for the record. But to keep you from , what are some of the spiritual implications of chimp hunting?


----------



## Tim L (Jan 7, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> I asked this question in the General Hunting section and realized that it had spiritual implications, particularly for Christians who have been instructed to be stewards of all God's creatures.
> 
> According to the Bible, is it OK to hunt and kill chimps?



Sometimes I really wonder about the motivation behind some of the threads on here....like picking a dryed up scab trying to make it bleed.....oh well, lwithout going into what the bible may or may not (and more likely doesn't even address) say regarding such a question, I would say the answer is no for anyone with the values of a western orineted (Greco-Roman) society....sometimes the answer is obviously no and there is no need to offer any further explanation.....However, if one doesn't have western values (and please don't misunderstand what is meant by western values) and was born in....say a tribal area of the congo in a village where all you know is subsistance level survival, the answer might be so obviously yes that it needs no further explantion....


----------



## WTM45 (Jan 7, 2010)

Rouster said:


> Sometimes I really wonder about the motivation behind some of the threads on here....like picking a dryed up scab trying to make it bleed.....



The campfire at our hunting camp in upstate NY makes this place look like a elementary school teacher's lounge at lunch!


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 7, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> I'd think if it is a tool used for management of the species it would be a cultural issue and would be subject to public opinion just like deer hunting is.  The cultural influence that affects legislation making determination of an animal as "game" or "protected" is the key factor.
> 
> If someone really wants a challenge, join a standing army and hunt people in the name of "defending the country" or "promoting _________" (fill in the blank with your chosen term here.)
> 
> Would any deity question the actions of soldiers defending their lives?





gtparts said:


> I said "stillborn", for the record. But to keep you from , what are some of the spiritual implications of chimp hunting?





Rouster said:


> Sometimes I really wonder about the motivation behind some of the threads on here....like picking a dryed up scab trying to make it bleed.....oh well, lwithout going into what the bible may or may not (and more likely doesn't even address) say regarding such a question, I would say the answer is no for anyone with the values of a western orineted (Greco-Roman) society....sometimes the answer is obviously no and there is no need to offer any further explanation.....However, if one doesn't have western values (and please don't misunderstand what is meant by western values) and was born in....say a tribal area of the congo in a village where all you know is subsistance level survival, the answer might be so obviously yes that it needs no further explantion....



So y'all don't think sentience or intelligence of the animal has any bearing on the appropriateness of pursuing an animal as game?

GT,

What if a chimp were able to sign to you that he had a sense of God or that he wanted to grow old and see his children grow up?   I think there might be spiritual implications in that case.


----------



## WTM45 (Jan 7, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> So y'all don't think sentience or intelligence of the animal has any bearing on the appropriateness of pursuing an animal as game?
> 
> GT,
> 
> What if a chimp were able to sign to you that he had a sense of God or that he wanted to grow old and see his children grow up?   I think there might be spiritual implications in that case.



Ambush, I'd kill and eat a human if I had to.  Never been anywhere near that hungry or desperate.  Hope it never comes to that.
I think you know where I'm coming from!


----------



## Ronnie T (Jan 7, 2010)

When watching tv I sometimes see the little monkey's running up to the tourist to steal their food, purses, glasses, etc.
I've always thought I'd like to give one of those monkey's about 8 body-slams then hurl them over a cliff.


----------



## pigpen1 (Jan 7, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Not monkeys, chimps or gorillas.  What if you trained them to use a weapon first?   Or taught them sign language and then explained to them that you were going to release them and then hunt them down to kill them.  I imagine given their intelligence that they would make for some elusive quarry.



 I heard a lady say that her blind daughter had a seeing eye monkey. She said they never had any problems out of it until it drank her brothers malt liquor and got hold of a  pistol and shot up their house.

 She said they don't have any problems out of it any more, until they drive by a billboard sign advertising that malt liquor and the monkey goes crazy.

 So my question is, would it be sinful for a monkey to drink malt liquor?


----------



## WTM45 (Jan 7, 2010)

pigpen1 said:


> I heard a lady say that her blind daughter had a seeing eye monkey. She said they never had any problems out of it until it drank her brothers malt liquor and got hold of a  pistol and shot up their house.
> 
> She said they don't have any problems out of it any more, until they drive by a billboard sign advertising that malt liquor and the monkey goes crazy.
> 
> So my question is, would it be sinful for a monkey to drink malt liquor?



AWESOME!

There was a chimp in CT named "Travis" that communicated quite well he did not like a certain ladyfriend of it's owner.
Ripped off her face and hands.

When that chimp communicated its intentions of doing the same to a police officer it was ventilated with a .45ACP.


----------



## earl (Jan 7, 2010)

I think Tarzan was Church of England and he didn't eat Cheeta.


----------



## pigpen1 (Jan 7, 2010)

earl said:


> I think Tarzan was Church of England and he didn't eat Cheeta.



If he would have been Baptist, Cheeta wouldn't of had a chance.....can you say Homecoming...


----------



## WTM45 (Jan 7, 2010)

I almost had a heart attack.
Thought for a second you said "Homeschooling."

Whew!


----------



## pigpen1 (Jan 7, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> I almost had a heart attack.
> Thought for a second you said "Homeschooling."
> 
> Whew!



 Yep, ain't nothing like a home schooled Baptist Monkey.


----------



## WTM45 (Jan 7, 2010)

pigpen1 said:


> Yep, ain't nothing like a home schooled Baptist Monkey.



As long as he will wave to me or shake my hand if we run into each other at the liquor store!


----------



## Israel (Jan 7, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> AWESOME!
> 
> There was a chimp in CT named "Travis" that communicated quite well he did not like a certain ladyfriend of it's owner.
> Ripped off her face and hands.
> ...



It's a sad commentary about us wanting to possess the things of which we become enamored.
Lots of deep spiritual mining there for the hardy soul who wants to go spelunking and look at the soul of man.
Strap on a headlamp, grab a mirror and put your best game face on.


----------



## WTM45 (Jan 7, 2010)

Israel said:


> It's a sad commentary about us wanting to possess the things of which we become enamored.
> Lots of deep spiritual mining there for the hardy soul who wants to go spelunking and look at the soul of man.
> Strap on a headlamp, grab a mirror and put your best game face on.



And keep your .45ACP close at hand.


----------



## gtparts (Jan 7, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> So y'all don't think sentience or intelligence of the animal has any bearing on the appropriateness of pursuing an animal as game?
> 
> GT,
> 
> What if a chimp were able to sign to you that he had a sense of God or that he wanted to grow old and see his children grow up?   I think there might be spiritual implications in that case.



On the first count, I am not sure that self-awareness or intelligence is a valid criteria for qualifying prey, but choosing the least intelligent, tasty animal for the spit or crockpot sounds like the way to go.

On the second count, when it happens that a deer indicates by semaphore or Morse Code that he is praying to God, especially the one true God, Jehovah, then I will most assuredly reevaluate my desire for venison. Can't say I relish the flesh of chimps, but then I am quite fond of raw oysters, so it is possible.

Until something of that nature happens, I have no reason to concern myself with such speculation.


----------



## WTM45 (Jan 7, 2010)

GT, slow roasted monkey ain't so bad.  Better than cold MRE's.


----------



## Huntinfool (Jan 8, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> So y'all don't think sentience or intelligence of the animal has any bearing on the appropriateness of pursuing an animal as game?



No.....no I don't think that has any bearing on it.

God did not only give us dominion over the stupid animals.


----------



## tell sackett (Jan 8, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> No.....no I don't think that has any bearing on it.
> 
> God did not only give us dominion over the stupid animals.


Rise Peter, kill and eat. If you're hongry, and  chimp is all you can get, put that bad boy on the grill!

Anybody know what the season and bag limit is?


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 8, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> No.....no I don't think that has any bearing on it.
> 
> God did not only give us dominion over the stupid animals.





tell sackett said:


> Rise Peter, kill and eat. If you're hongry, and  chimp is all you can get, put that bad boy on the grill!
> 
> Anybody know what the season and bag limit is?



I think I understand your positions from a Biblical standpoint.  Would it make any difference to you if the chimp could use sign language (which I understand they are capable of) or speak English for that matter, to tell you that it didn't want to die?

What would you say to it in response to its pleas for mercy?


----------



## tell sackett (Jan 8, 2010)

What if I could sprout wings and fly around the moon?


----------



## Huntinfool (Jan 8, 2010)

No, honestly it wouldn't.  Would I SEEK that chimp out and kill him unless I had to for survival?  Probably not.

Bottom line is that he is not human.  He is under the dominion of man and, unfortunately for that particular gun toting, sign language using, english speaking chimp,.....he's dinner and God is fine with that.

I am absolutely certain that the last turkey I killed made eye contact with me right before I put him on the ground.

I'm fairly certain his last thought was not "well, it's ok.  This guy has dominion over me."  I'm fairly certain it was something like "holy crap!  How did that white boy sneak in so close!  Oh please don't ki...."

Self preservation is an instinct.  Not wanting to die does not give one a soul.


----------



## WTM45 (Jan 8, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> What if I could sprout wings and fly around the moon?



1.  MTV might give you a reality show.
2.  Your Christian brethren might stone you for being posessed by the devil.
3.  You might burn up on re-entry and no one would know it happened at all.

Ambush, almost every animal I have taken has shown some form of desire to live, or tried to make efforts towards self preservation.  Communication?  I've seen some very vocal deer and bears, turkey that have yelped from fear and pain, and my hunting bud will never shoot another black bear after the experience he had.
It cried like a baby.


----------



## Huntinfool (Jan 8, 2010)

#1 is DEFINITELY true.

#2....not so much...but we would make fun of you.

#3 is an absolute certainty.  Nice knowing ya.



I'd add #4....we'd have indisputable evidence against slow evolution.


----------



## tell sackett (Jan 8, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> 1.  MTV might give you a reality show.
> 2.  Your Christian brethren might stone you for being posessed by the devil.
> 3.  You might burn up on re-entry and no one would know it happened at all.


----------



## WTM45 (Jan 8, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> I'd add #4....we'd have indisputable evidence against slow evolution.



Let's add a #5........."It's A Miracle!"


----------



## Ronnie T (Jan 8, 2010)

Published: 1/8/10, 1:25 PM EDT

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) - Puerto Rican officials have killed 800 monkeys blamed for scavenging crops and damaging natural resources in the island's southwest region.

Department of Natural Resources spokeswoman Ana Maria Ramos says that 200 other monkeys captured in recent months have been relocated to the Caribbean Primate Research Center at the University of Puerto Rico and to other countries.

Citing a statement from Fish and Wildlife Department Director Miguel Garcia, Ramos said Friday that most of those killed were patas monkeys, while those sent to the primate center were rhesus monkeys, which are used for scientific research. Garcia said the monkeys were killed in a humane way, but did not elaborate.

The monkeys escaped from research labs in the 1960s and '70s.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 8, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> 1.  MTV might give you a reality show.
> 2.  Your Christian brethren might stone you for being posessed by the devil.
> 3.  You might burn up on re-entry and no one would know it happened at all.
> 
> ...



I'm talking about a very specific kind of communication.  I'm sure you've heard about primates that have been taught American Sign language or that can use keyboards. They construct sentences and convey complex ideas.  

All animals are made of meat, humans included.  Most Christians here draw very clear lines between other animals and humans; the result of their having been granted dominion over all the creatures.  But not all of the Christians feel that way.  Some of the people that would object to hunting chimps from the General Hunting thread are Christians but feel that Higher Primates and Cetaceans deserve special consideration.   

I just want to know why they feel that way.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 8, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Published: 1/8/10, 1:25 PM EDT
> 
> SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) - Puerto Rican officials have killed 800 monkeys blamed for scavenging crops and damaging natural resources in the island's southwest region.
> 
> ...



Not all primates have the same mental abilities.  Great Apes are clearly capable of complex thoughts, conveyance of emotions and true sentience.  I don't know if anyone has ever tried to explain the concept of God to a gorilla or a chimpanzee but they might have ideas on the subject.


----------



## Huntinfool (Jan 8, 2010)

I couldn't tell you.  I suppose it's just a personal thing.  Most of those guys (I suspect) have never seen a primate in the wild and so, killing one would seem foreign to them.

It's the same story with folks who don't hunt deer.  "Why would you want to kill that animal?" they say.  

I suspect you're trying to make some kind of a link between primates and humans that I just do not believe is there.  If I needed to, I wouldn't have an issue with it at all...especially from a stewardship standpoint.

You can have an ethical or moral objection if you want.  But, biblically, there is no legitimate stewardship objection.  They are "beasts" and so they are under our authority.


----------



## tell sackett (Jan 8, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> my hunting bud will never shoot another black bear after the experience he had.
> It cried like a baby.


I've been hunting since I was a kid, and to be honest I think I would have had a hard time with that too.


----------



## pigpen1 (Jan 8, 2010)

I wonder what monkey jerky would be like???? I'd eat it.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 8, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> I couldn't tell you.  I suppose it's just a personal thing.  Most of those guys (I suspect) have never seen a primate in the wild and so, killing one would seem foreign to them.
> 
> It's the same story with folks who don't hunt deer.  "Why would you want to kill that animal?" they say.



Some might make a distinction between Great Apes and deer.



Huntinfool said:


> I suspect you're trying to make some kind of a link between primates and humans that I just do not believe is there.  If I needed to, I wouldn't have an issue with it at all...especially from a stewardship standpoint.
> 
> You can have an ethical or moral objection if you want.  But, biblically, there is no legitimate stewardship objection.  They are "beasts" and so they are under our authority.



10-4.  I make a "link" between humans and all animals.  I maintain a relationship between myself and other animals that I believe to be true to my nature and theirs.  Which is why I hunt deer and catch fish.  I believe that authority between beasts is established by "might makes right".  Why might someone have a moral or ethical objection to hunting chimps?





tell sackett said:


> I've been hunting since I was a kid, and to be honest I think I would have had a hard time with that too.



Why?



pigpen1 said:


> I wonder what monkey jerky would be like???? I'd eat it.



I would too.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jan 8, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> GT, slow roasted monkey ain't so bad.  Better than cold MRE's.



Honestly, have you had roasted monkey??


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 8, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Honestly, have you had roasted monkey??



Monkeys are one thing.  I'm talking about a chimpanzee, gorilla or orangutan; animals that have been taught to use sign language.


----------



## pileit (Jan 8, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Monkeys are one thing.  I'm talking about a chimpanzee, gorilla or orangutan; animals that have been taught to use sign language.



Do you eat monkey?


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2010)

pileit said:


> Do you eat monkey?



Never have.  You?


----------



## pileit (Jan 9, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Never have.  You?




I couldn't bring myself to shoot one, but i do like to eat monkey.  My wife likes it too.


----------



## Israel (Jan 9, 2010)

Actually I believe nothing can be "casually" killed by a man who has seen the Lord.
You are aware that even those things that trouble you...are out of whack due to the fall.
Now, I have not gotten to the point where I have a hard time throwing moldy bread into the trash...but I don't step on a roach with the same sense of superiority I once did. 
I see he and I are not much different, I suppose. Except that he probably executes God's will with less resistance.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2010)

Israel said:


> Actually I believe nothing can be "casually" killed by a man who has seen the Lord.
> You are aware that even those things that trouble you...are out of whack due to the fall.
> Now, I have not gotten to the point where I have a hard time throwing moldy bread into the trash...but I don't step on a roach with the same sense of superiority I once did.
> I see he and I are not much different, I suppose. Except that he probably executes God's will with less resistance.



Are a roach and a chimp different?


----------



## Israel (Jan 9, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Are a roach and a chimp different?


To me?
Quite.
Unless I had a house infested with chimps...in which case I might have a different view.
You may already think I do.


----------



## WTM45 (Jan 9, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Honestly, have you had roasted monkey??



Yes.  And camel, horse, dog and some other critters.


----------



## leroy (Jan 9, 2010)

Two pages of debate over if killing apes is wrong in Gods eyes, started by a unbeliever and some were calling freemasonory threads silly


----------



## WTM45 (Jan 9, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Monkeys are one thing.  I'm talking about a chimpanzee, gorilla or orangutan; animals that have been taught to use sign language.



It would be quite difficult for me, unless it was self defense.
Even putting a terminally sick one to sleep would be difficult, especially if a relationship has been established.
I even hate having to put down a sick dog.  Especially a little buddy.


----------



## WTM45 (Jan 9, 2010)

leroy said:


> Two pages of debate over if killing apes is wrong and some were calling fremmasonory threads silly



There are some deeper meanings in this thread.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2010)

Israel said:


> To me?
> Quite.
> Unless I had a house infested with chimps...in which case I might have a different view.
> You may already think I do.



I know that you are a strong Christian and a very reasonable man.  How does your religious inclination inform your decision on how to view your relationship to apes or cockroaches?



WTM45 said:


> It would be quite difficult for me, unless it was self defense.
> Even putting a terminally sick one to sleep would be difficult, especially if a relationship has been established.
> I even hate having to put down a sick dog.  Especially a little buddy.



So you would take issue with a chimp being taught sign language or how to use weapons in order to make it a more formidable hunting adversary?



WTM45 said:


> There are some deeper meanings in this thread.



To some, if it doesn't involve the Bible, it has no merit as a spiritual issue.


----------



## WTM45 (Jan 9, 2010)

I can see chimps as being considered personal property, just like any domesticated cat or dog.  
I have no problems with an owner doing whatever they want.  Societies set the standards and laws regarding abuse and neglect.  I'm no animal rights crusader.
Personally, deer are elusive enough for me.  Venison chile is plenty enough reward.

"To some, if it doesn't involve the Bible, it has no merit as a spiritual issue."  
Truer words never spoken, my friend.


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> I can see chimps as being considered personal property, just like any domesticated cat or dog.
> I have no problems with an owner doing whatever they want.  Societies set the standards and laws regarding abuse and neglect.  I'm no animal rights crusader.
> Personally, deer are elusive enough for me.  Venison chile is plenty enough reward.
> 
> ...



In regards to the portion in blue:

Do you think there is any general consensus about the morality of eating chimps? Do you think that an aborigine that has eaten chimps all his life might have a different view of them if he interacted with one that was taught sign language?  I know in many cultures they maintain dogs for pets and dogs for eating.   They make strange distinctions between the two that I don't completely understand.


----------



## WTM45 (Jan 9, 2010)

Culture imprints on the young early, so that children and adults just accept things most often without a second thought.  They grew up doing it.  Their parents did it.  So, it must be OK.
I can not be sure.  Psychology or human behavior studies may have a better answer.

I do see it as strange those folks who want to "tame" or "domesticate" dangerous animals, that's for sure.  What drives them to desire to do such?


----------



## leroy (Jan 9, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> There are some deeper meanings in this thread.



Your right about one thing....... its deep about knee deep  and rising


----------



## pigpen1 (Jan 9, 2010)

pileit said:


> I couldn't bring myself to shoot one, but i do like to eat monkey.  My wife likes it too.



 Do you use any flavoring sauces or just enjoy it in its own natural flavor and juice?


----------



## Israel (Jan 9, 2010)

As to shooting a chimp that knew sign language and was able to tell me something like, "I prefer mine without the lime stuck in the bottle"...well, I think he'd be pretty safe no matter how hungry I got.
As to arming one to make a hunt more interesting...I don't hunt for sport...and even now don't even think too much about doing it for food.
I used to hunt deer, rabbits, squirrels...and it was fun, (though I stunk at deer hunting) and I loved walking in the woods in the fall...but now...I have no stomach for doing the killing...although I do not maintain a meat free one.
I've got a beautiful  S/S Remington .308 with a Nikon scope that a brother in the Lord gave me...and I still sometimes think about trying to get some venison from time to time...but since I don't think I need to...I therefore do not have the faith for a clean kill.
I remember watching a sparrow I shot with a BB gun as a child...and watching as it paid for the crime of landing in my backyard by having its life ooze out onto the grass. 
I didn't need to do that...and the image of it haunts me still...I believe I have become a bit more sensitive of the things I "need" to do...and when I act presumptuously beyond that...well...let's just say I can well imagine a deer looking at me with eyes not unlike my Shi Tzu's, and if I needed to walk up and put another round into it... by then I would probably give all the world to have that bell unrung.


----------



## pileit (Jan 9, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> There are some deeper meanings in this thread.




Agreed.  Where are the one using their heads?


----------



## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2010)

Israel said:


> As to shooting a chimp that knew sign language and was able to tell me something like, "I prefer mine without the lime stuck in the bottle"...well, I think he'd be pretty safe no matter how hungry I got.
> As to arming one to make a hunt more interesting...I don't hunt for sport...and even now don't even think too much about doing it for food.
> I used to hunt deer, rabbits, squirrels...and it was fun, (though I stunk at deer hunting) and I loved walking in the woods in the fall...but now...I have no stomach for doing the killing...although I do not maintain a meat free one.
> I've got a beautiful  S/S Remington .308 with a Nikon scope that a brother in the Lord gave me...and I still sometimes think about trying to get some venison from time to time...but since I don't think I need to...I therefore do not have the faith for a clean kill.
> ...



Sounds like your spiritual path may lead you to veganism or some other way of eating that would minimize suffering.  I can respect that.  If you are designed by God to predate and to be omnivorous, why would he move you away from that design?  Furthermore, it sounds like your conviction has led you to feel that it's not good to kill animals for sport.  Is that true?


----------



## Israel (Jan 10, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Sounds like your spiritual path may lead you to veganism or some other way of eating that would minimize suffering.  I can respect that.  If you are designed by God to predate and to be omnivorous, why would he move you away from that design?  Furthermore, it sounds like your conviction has led you to feel that it's not good to kill animals for sport.  Is that true?



Since I don't do it doesn't mean it's not good.
Those kind of value judgments I couldn't impose on anyone else since the Lord has given us liberty. 
I might question a brother who went about saying, "I just like killing stuff for the fun of it..." though. The question may be no more than a simple..."Why?"
I still eat meat, I still eat fish, but there's something I have come to recognize in that. That for this fallen body, in this groaning creation...something must die for me to live...

It's almost funny to speak to you of these things, for I have had brothers almost deride me with epithets for being like a pagan when I mentioned the much publicized (in recent books and movies) Indian (native american) practice of "saluting" the animal they have just killed.
It is not that I endorse such a ritual, but even mentioning that they may have had an understanding of the kinship of all life appeared so out of bounds to some that they believed mocking with impunity is justified. So be it.
I often deserve to be mocked...anyway.

But, that being said, there's a truth I see in the lion laying down with the lamb, and the Lord's instructions for sacrifice...especially of a lamb.

I believe there is something the Lord would have us see about frailty and the vulnerability of life, yes...its preciousness...that everything we would do, and have done in rebellion to him leads us away from the wonder of it...to where we regard each other, and all of creation, as a mere given...never seeing the intricacy and miracle of it, nor the benevolence of the hand that designed it.

So, sin, rather than leading us, by the sacrifice required for it...to see its heinousness, simply provoked in us the expediency of "let's just breed and kill more lambs...yeah...that'll cover it quite nicely".
And so we go about striving in all our blindness to make things "right" just killing and killing some more.

I am reminded of this scripture:

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.


"He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man..."

Some men just need killing.
Jesus showed us who...and how the way to life is found if we will just agree and kill the one it is both lawful and expedient to see slain.

I am crucified with Christ.

I am the man who brings sin into the world.

I am Adam.


----------



## pileit (Jan 10, 2010)

pigpen1 said:


> Do you use any flavoring sauces or just enjoy it in its own natural flavor and juice?



Natural how about you?


----------



## pigpen1 (Jan 11, 2010)

pileit said:


> Natural how about you?



 Either way too me, sometimes its like BBQ the more sauce the more mess, but unless you get it all over you it ain't good. If it is a good tender monkey, that is prepared properly, just plain. I guess it according to where you get the monkey. Some monkey I just wouldn't eat, I believe some are not properly preserved and might kill you.


----------



## Israel (Jan 11, 2010)

Like was said...burn pulpit, burn.


----------



## pigpen1 (Jan 11, 2010)

I like possum too! I like them because they a plentyful and easy to get. Most people that don't like them don't know how to prepare them, you have to remove the fat that way it is not greasy. I cooked one for Christmas a few years ago, my sisters haven't been back to eat with me since then.

There shouldn't be any thing wrong with eating Monkey, Possum, Chicken or anything else. If a person likes it go for it. This is kinda like going back under the law and saying we can't even enjoy a big greasy pork chop.


----------



## pigpen1 (Jan 11, 2010)

Right here is my wifes favorite monkey to eat..


----------



## pileit (Jan 11, 2010)

Israel said:


> Like was said...burn pulpit, burn.




You think we need more fire in the pulpit.


----------



## pileit (Mar 14, 2010)

pigpen1 said:


> Right here is my wifes favorite monkey to eat..
> 
> 
> View attachment 448074[/QUOTE
> ...


----------



## creation's_cause (Mar 14, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Not all primates have the same mental abilities.  Great Apes are clearly capable of complex thoughts, conveyance of emotions and true sentience.  I don't know if anyone has ever tried to explain the concept of God to a gorilla or a chimpanzee but they might have ideas on the subject.



Might be easier and more worthwhile to try, as compared to some of the agnostics and atheists on this site...just a thought.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 15, 2010)

creation's_cause said:


> Might be easier and more worthwhile to try, as compared to some of the agnostics and atheists on this site...just a thought.



I'm sure a Chimp would make a great believer, maybe even a deacon or pastor.

If a chimp could communicate in sign language that he believed that the Bible is true because it says so in the Bible, would you think that he was making sense?


----------



## serving1Lord (Mar 15, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Not all primates have the same mental abilities.  Great Apes are clearly capable of complex thoughts, conveyance of emotions and true sentience.  I don't know if anyone has ever tried to explain the concept of God to a gorilla or a chimpanzee but they might have ideas on the subject.



I'm just wondering if killing sign language speaking monkeys has been a problem somewhere. Is there a chimp uprising that I don't know about? Don't remember seeing any chimps or gorillas carrying picket signs saying " just because I can sign and carry a gun, doesn't mean you can kill me" on CNN. I guess I'm out of the loop.


----------



## tell sackett (Mar 15, 2010)

If at the next full moon my body grows long shaggy hair and a long snout with sharp teeth, am I a werewolf?


----------



## Jeffriesw (Mar 15, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> If at the next full moon my body grows long shaggy hair and a long snout with sharp teeth, am I a werewolf?



Yes!! You are, and if you show up in central Florida looking like that I will pop a silver cap in your backside


----------



## tell sackett (Mar 15, 2010)

Mods! Mods! Personal attack! Hate Crime! I'm a protected minority!(Who by the way ain't going near the Fla. line next full moon, just in case)


----------



## ted_BSR (Mar 18, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> No, honestly it wouldn't.  Would I SEEK that chimp out and kill him unless I had to for survival?  Probably not.
> 
> Bottom line is that he is not human.  He is under the dominion of man and, unfortunately for that particular gun toting, sign language using, english speaking chimp,.....he's dinner and God is fine with that.
> 
> ...




  CORRECT!  Animals do not have souls.  When they die, they cease to exist (after I eat them).  It makes no matter how smart or self aware they are. They do share a common etheral component with man which is "spirit", but that is a whole nother thread.


----------



## BeenHuntn (Mar 18, 2010)

c'mon Ted, get in the game....!  the pope said all animals go to heaven:  and we know that he is the leader of the all churches and you are just a mad scientist who is hunting club president...    

Pope John Paul II:
'Animals Possess A Soul'

Pope John Paul II declared in a public audience in 1990 that "also the animals possess a soul and men must love and feel solidarity with our smaller brethren". He said, too, that they are the "fruit of the creative action of the Holy Spirit and merit respect," and are as near to God as men are." The Pope went on to say that, "animals have the breath of life and were given it by God. In this respect, man created by the hand of God is identical with all living creatures. ... The existence therefore of all living creatures depends on the living spirit/breath of God that not only creates but also sustains and renews the face of the earth."


----------



## ted_BSR (Mar 18, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> c'mon Ted, get in the game....!  the pope said all animals go to heaven:
> 
> Pope John Paul II:
> 'Animals Possess A Soul'
> ...



Sure, but only after I eat them!


----------



## BeenHuntn (Mar 18, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> Sure, but only after I eat them!





i also have no problem blowing off the head of a turkey and then sending its soul to the pope so he can offer it "last rites" before going home to the Lord...   


only if i had a club over near athens somewhere i could hunt turkeys during the week...   hmmm.


----------



## ted_BSR (Mar 18, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> i also have no problem blowing off the head of a turkey and then sending its soul to the pope so he can offer it "last rites" before going home to the Lord...
> 
> 
> only if i had a club over near athens somewhere i could hunt turkeys during the week...   hmmm.




The pope oughta read the KJV.  I'll holler at you tommorow.


----------

