# To those with high cholesterol??? LDL UPDATE See post #42



## whitetaco02 (Apr 8, 2011)

Well, I am 32 years old and thought it couldn't happen to me but I have high cholesterol.  I barely eat fried foods but I do love the sweets!!!  Candy, ice cream, chocolate, you name it.  I and 5'10'' and weigh 194 lbs.  I am not over weight at all and work out 5 times a week with no cardio.

I eat deer meet about two to three times a week and that is the only beef type meat I eat.  He said to go to one time a week just to see if that makes a difference.

I got my cholesterol checked the other day and found out my LDL levels were 167.  The doctor said I am a heart attack waiting to happen and that it needs to be under 99.  Everything else looks fine but my HDL levels need to go up about 6 or 7 points.  I have been dieting now, taking fish oil pills, and really hitting the cardio now.  Also eating albacore tuna, pistachios, almonds, apples, whole weat breads and cereals, etc...

My question to you is have any of you all been able to beat this with diet and no meds?  Doc said I need to get my blood checked again in three months and if there is no improvement he is going to put me on medicine.

I would like to hear your stories if possible.  I feel like I have to change my whole life now.  Eating better, waking up at 4:45 to make sure I hit the cardio before work, etc...  It is killing me but I know I don't want to die at 50!


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## deermeat270 (Apr 8, 2011)

Good advice and I need to get mine checked.  You sound like me.


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## david w. (Apr 8, 2011)

Why does all of the good stuff gotta be bad for you?


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## turtlebug (Apr 8, 2011)

Not sure what to tell you. I see people every day that eat like rabbits trying to get their cholesterol under control and fail miserably. I still say genetics plays a key role.  

My grandfather was a butcher. We grew up eating everything fried, in lard no doubt, and my cholesterol levels are a doctor's dream. I stay pretty active but I eat what I want... sometimes in moderation, sometimes not, depends on what the hormones are telling me at the time.  Sometimes they tell me to single handedly cause a Ben & Jerry's shortage.  We do eat a LOT of baked and sautee'd chicken, rice, veggies but I fry something at least once a week. 

I take an Allegra, 5,000 mg of Biotin and an 85mg aspirin every night and there's the occasional antibiotics for the constant sinus infections and that's it. I've been on the aspirin since I was 29 and threw a blood clot to my lung. Other members on that side of my family have great numbers as well, my dad's side...not so good.

Cholesterol medications scare me to death. I've got a friend now whose liver is wrecked due to the Doc trying him on different cholesterol meds. I've seen folks that couldn't walk two weeks after starting on some of these new cholesterol pills. My dad couldn't hardly get out of bed for two months due to side effects of one med but I forget which one.

I would do everything in my power to stay off of the meds. I just don't think all these new fangled remedies are safe. If they were, why would you have to have your liver enzymes checked so often? Kind of like all the folks on Lamasil for over a year because they have toenail fungus. I can live with ugly toenails, livers are a little harder to replace.  Tonight, I even noticed a new warning on the OTC Allegra bottle about kidney disease and such. Guess I'll go have a renal panel next week.


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## turtlebug (Apr 8, 2011)

Oh and I forgot, a teaspoon of Apple Cider Vinegar every night. Biotin helps your hair and nails and also is supposed to be good for helping to regulate blood sugar (which is a BAD problem on my mom's side). 

The vinegar is supposed to help regulate blood sugar as well and it also helps with indigestion (Thanks Snowy  ) AND since I haven't found a tick or a chigger on me in the last two years, I'm pretty sure Nicodemus is on to something.


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## Nitro (Apr 8, 2011)

None of us leave here standing up. Moderation in all things.

Enjoy your life, your family, your friends and your passions.Stressing about numbers kills plenty of folks early.

I go to the Doctor once a year........I try to do what I am directed to do, within reason.... My brother is an MD and he will tell you quick, go enjoy life. YMMV.


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## deermeat270 (Apr 8, 2011)

turtlebug said:


> Oh and I forgot, a teaspoon of Apple Cider Vinegar every night. Biotin helps your hair and nails and also is supposed to be good for helping to regulate blood sugar (which is a BAD problem on my mom's side).
> 
> The vinegar is supposed to help regulate blood sugar as well and it also helps with indigestion (Thanks Snowy  ) AND since I haven't found a tick or a chigger on me in the last two years, I'm pretty sure Nicodemus is on to something.



The vinegar will help with acid reflux too.


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## Keebs (Apr 8, 2011)

deermeat270 said:


> The vinegar will help with acid reflux too.


Oh heck yeah!!


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## whitetaco02 (Apr 8, 2011)

Thanks for the posts you all.  I really just want to see what I can do as a personal goal to get the numbers down.  Cardio is a good thing as well as eating right so it isn't half bad.  I just really do NOT want to be put on medicine at the age of 32.  Medicine is for old people! 

Sweets were my down fall and they were in no shape or form in moderation.  Since I cut out sweets I have lost 14 lbs in 6 weeks.  I can't even begin to describe the sugar intake that was going on.  (Entire bag of sour gummy worms gone in ten minutes)  (Huge bowl of Kroger brand orange sherbert for desert after every dinner if I was full or not).  That kind of bad!  (I never gained wait though, just couldn't lose it)  

I still indulge but like Andy said, it is in moderation now!  I don't even miss it anymore.


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## whitetaco02 (Apr 8, 2011)

I also read that two tbsp of extra virgin olive oil a day can lower LDL levels so my wife is starting to cook with that more as well.  We also made some salad dressings with it and it is very good!


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## lab (Apr 8, 2011)

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=600877&highlight=


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## athensbass (Apr 8, 2011)

Thanks for all the great info!!


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## JustUs4All (Apr 9, 2011)

Good luck Mr. WhiteTaco02.  I just got home from by-pass surgery.  Both my blood pressure and cholesterol levels have been slightly elevated for 15 years. I had an unusual EKG at work 8 years ago that got me to a cardiologist for the nuclear stress test.   Passed with flying colors, cardiologist even gave me a written 5 year warranty.  Regular Dr. started low level drugs for both BP and Cholesterol.

Bad EKG a couple weeks ago lead step by step to a quadruple by-pass due to a 60% blockage in the big artery that feeds down from the top.  Same Cardiologist said that if I had plugged it I would not have made it to a hospital.  

There are many factors that influence heart health.  In my opinion, family history is probably the most important followed by exercise and then diet.  I believe that the cholesterol that harms you is that produced by your own body not the stuff you eat.  You do need to eat the stuff that does not make your body produce the bad stuff though.  

I wish you well and hope that if you do develop a problem you will be able to walk in to the hospital due to catching it up front with tests.  Being carried in because of the heart attack is much worse.


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## MoonPie (Apr 9, 2011)

whitetaco02 said:


> Thanks for the posts you all.  I really just want to see what I can do as a personal goal to get the numbers down.  Cardio is a good thing as well as eating right so it isn't half bad.  I just really do NOT want to be put on medicine at the age of 32.  Medicine is for old people!



I agree and disagree. All prescription medicine is not bad, or for old people, and can help some live a long productive life that they would not have without it. Of course we need give careful research to any recomeneded medication.  Fact is probly all of us would like to live in a perfect healthy condition without meds. For some, no matter what life style they live, young, old, or inbetween it's just not possible.


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## rhbama3 (Apr 9, 2011)

whitetaco02 said:


> Well, I am 32 years old and thought it couldn't happen to me but I have high cholesterol.  I barely eat fried foods but I do love the sweets!!!  Candy, ice cream, chocolate, you name it.  I and 5'10'' and weigh 194 lbs.  I am not over weight at all and work out 5 times a week with no cardio.
> 
> I eat deer meet about two to three times a week and that is the only beef type meat I eat.  He said to go to one time a week just to see if that makes a difference.
> 
> ...


WT,
 You are on the right path, i would also add to drink one glass of red wine per day( or grape juice) and stay away from saturated fats. You can google "the french paradox" to see what i am talking about. Sometimes its not the diet that gets you in trouble but genetics. Does high cholesterol run in your family tree?


JustUs4All said:


> Good luck Mr. WhiteTaco02.  I just got home from by-pass surgery.  Both my blood pressure and cholesterol levels have been slightly elevated for 15 years. I had an unusual EKG at work 8 years ago that got me to a cardiologist for the nuclear stress test.   Passed with flying colors, cardiologist even gave me a written 5 year warranty.  Regular Dr. started low level drugs for both BP and Cholesterol.
> 
> Bad EKG a couple weeks ago lead step by step to a quadruple by-pass due to a 60% blockage in the big artery that feeds down from the top.  Same Cardiologist said that if I had plugged it I would not have made it to a hospital.
> 
> ...



That 60% blockage sounds like it was the Left Main Coronary and it feeds the Left Anterior Descending and Circumflex arteries that deliver blood to the left side of your heart. It's a bad blockage to have and i'm glad they caught it in time. Good luck and best wishes for a speedy recovery!


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## whitetaco02 (Apr 9, 2011)

lab said:


> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=600877&highlight=



Thank you!  Very informative thread!


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## whitetaco02 (Apr 9, 2011)

JustUs4All said:


> Good luck Mr. WhiteTaco02.  I just got home from by-pass surgery.  Both my blood pressure and cholesterol levels have been slightly elevated for 15 years. I had an unusual EKG at work 8 years ago that got me to a cardiologist for the nuclear stress test.   Passed with flying colors, cardiologist even gave me a written 5 year warranty.  Regular Dr. started low level drugs for both BP and Cholesterol.
> 
> Bad EKG a couple weeks ago lead step by step to a quadruple by-pass due to a 60% blockage in the big artery that feeds down from the top.  Same Cardiologist said that if I had plugged it I would not have made it to a hospital.
> 
> ...



I was actually thinking about going to a cardiologist and get a stress test done on my heart.  I am very worried about the levels being high and am wondering if I may not already have some blockage.  This eating right and doing cardio is really making me lose the lbs though.  Clothes are looser, had to tighten the belt from the normal worn out belt hole, and the scale said 192 this morning.  

I am glad that everything worked out for you and wish you a speedy recovery!


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## whitetaco02 (Apr 9, 2011)

MoonPie said:


> I agree and disagree. All prescription medicine is not bad, or for old people, and can help some live a long productive life that they would not have without it. Of course we need give careful research to any recomeneded medication.  Fact is probly all of us would like to live in a perfect healthy condition without meds. For some, no matter what life style they live, young, old, or inbetween it's just not possible.



I definitely agree with you man.  It is just aggravating!  Like I said, I am 32, don't need glasses, perfect hearing, and work out 5 days a week.  I need to get past the invincible mentality that I used to have when I was younger.


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## whitetaco02 (Apr 9, 2011)

rhbama3 said:


> WT,
> You are on the right path, i would also add to drink one glass of red wine per day( or grape juice) and stay away from saturated fats. You can google "the french paradox" to see what i am talking about. Sometimes its not the diet that gets you in trouble but genetics. Does high cholesterol run in your family tree?
> 
> 
> That 60% blockage sounds like it was the Left Main Coronary and it feeds the Left Anterior Descending and Circumflex arteries that deliver blood to the left side of your heart. It's a bad blockage to have and i'm glad they caught it in time. Good luck and best wishes for a speedy recovery!



High cholesterol does run in my family.  My dad just got off of his meds though due to getting on a strict diet.  I just hope I can do the same.

About the red wine thing, can it be a cold beer? 

I am not a drinker at all, fact is, I can't remember the last time alcohol has touched these lips.  I really don't want to start but I have heard that it does help.


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## whitetaco02 (Apr 9, 2011)

Here are my levels in case any of you are interested.

Cholesterol total, 221  High
Triglycerides, 92
HDL Cholesterol 36  Low  (Says it is a negative risk factor for CHD)  Needs to be greater than 39

VLDL Cholesterol Cal  18

LDL Cholesterol Calc  167  HIGH  (Need to lower this and raise HDL).


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## rhbama3 (Apr 9, 2011)

whitetaco02 said:


> High cholesterol does run in my family.  My dad just got off of his meds though due to getting on a strict diet.  I just hope I can do the same.
> 
> About the red wine thing, can it be a cold beer?
> 
> I am not a drinker at all, fact is, I can't remember the last time alcohol has touched these lips.  I really don't want to start but I have heard that it does help.



Nope. Thats why i suggested grape juice if you don't want to drink wine. Gotta be red or purple grapes.


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## whitetaco02 (Apr 9, 2011)

rhbama3 said:


> Nope. Thats why i suggested grape juice if you don't want to drink wine. Gotta be red or purple grapes.



Gotcha!  Thanks


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## mountainpass (Apr 9, 2011)

*First time blood work*



whitetaco02 said:


> Here are my levels in case any of you are interested.
> 
> Cholesterol total, 221  High
> Triglycerides, 92
> ...



I just had this done(41)....I'm not posting this to brag, I hope to help.

Cholesterol total, 143
Triglycerides, 39
HDL Cholesterol 60
LDL Cholesterol 75

Not drinking soft drinks, not eating high fat meals, not ever eating mayonnaise, never eating butter or margarine, only using olive oil and vinegar on salad, eating non-sugary cereal or regular oatmeal for breakfast(with some local honey added) or 2 eggs and toast, a peanut butter/jelly(whole wheat bread and natural peanut butter...peanuts, and salt...nothing more) with regular(low salt, cooked in a semi-healthy oil-- potato chips for lunch and a small portion of sort of fish(fresh cold water fish(not farm raised) or canned red salmon, non-white tuna, or sardines(or herring) from a very cold water country) 3-4 nights a week with a couple of vegetables(usually a sweet potato and maybe some beans/peas/asparagus) with red meat or chicken or lamb(with a glass of red wine) for dinner filling out the week.

For snacks homemade peanut butter crackers, or nuts(local black walnuts if you can find them). And a couple of squares of Dark Chocolate after dinner.

I ride my mountain bike at least 21 miles when the weather is fair(above 55 and sunny) or run 3 miles(when conditions keep me off the bike) at least 3 times a week. Cardio is the secret. Your heart condition becomes more and more important the older you get as I have learned...(check your blood pressure....I cut out caffeine and fixed mine).

I of course sometimes must deviate from this, while going through life, I try to make sensible decisions but if in a BBQ joint I eat what I want. Also if I crave ice cream, I eat it...just not the whole half gallon.

You really must change your way of life.


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## whitworth (Apr 10, 2011)

*We travel in the diabetes zone*

We see many who are overweight, take high food intake, have high cholesterol, have high blood pressure and become prime candidates for diabetes.  

As Americans, we generally have been using big shovels and front end loaders, to get the food in our mouth and down into our stomach.  I was an adult thirty years ago, so I know the weight gain over the last thirty years.  And for the younger fellas, they see it all as normal; normal weight of the times.  

They'd do a lot of men a world of good, if they started advertising the weight of college football players from fifty and sixty years ago.


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## whitetaco02 (Apr 10, 2011)

mountainpass said:


> I just had this done(41)....I'm not posting this to brag, I hope to help.
> 
> Cholesterol total, 143
> Triglycerides, 39
> ...



You have given me some great advice!  Thank you!  I am getting more strict in what I eat now.  I hope in three months I can post back with better results.


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## golffreak (Apr 10, 2011)

Other than bad knees and sinuses, and most recently a bad back, I have always had pretty good health. A blood test last year showed my cholesterol way out of whack. My blood pressure, which has always been near perfect, sky rocketed this morning to 155/110 for no obvious reason and has been that way all day. I'm now on the way to the doctor to get it checked out. 155/110 does not feel good at all.


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## Nicodemus (Apr 10, 2011)

It`s best to keep track of such things. Trust me on this.


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## whitetaco02 (Apr 10, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> It`s best to keep track of such things. Trust me on this.



My wife has a big ole pot of deer chili loaded with veggies in the crockpot now!  This will be my one day with deer meat!

I am watching it closely right now Nic!  It is hard but I can do it!


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## Nicodemus (Apr 10, 2011)

whitetaco02 said:


> My wife has a big ole pot of deer chili loaded with veggies in the crockpot now!  This will be my one day with deer meat!
> 
> I am watching it closely right now Nic!  It is hard but I can do it!





Frank, my doctor recommends deer for me over all other red meat. That`s the main reason we fill the freezer every year. Plus, the fact that we raise most of what we eat, helps a lot.


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## drippin' rock (Apr 10, 2011)

whitetaco02 said:


> Here are my levels in case any of you are interested.
> 
> Cholesterol total, 221  High
> Triglycerides, 92
> ...




Man!  That 221 is tough.  I haven't gone to get mine checked, but I am soon.  I have cut out all meat and dairy and am eating potatoes, wild and brown rice, corn, vegetables, and fruit.  I have lost 35 lbs. since January 11.  I started at 291, am currently 256, and still dropping.  

There are 3 things causing all the sickness and disease everyone here is discussing.  Breakfast, lunch, and dinner.  All meat has Cholesterol and fat.  No plant food has cholesterol.  By following this lifestyle, heart disease can be REVERSED, cholesterol can be under 150, and obesity demolished.

No one that I know practices moderation, but all like to throw that word around.  The only way to avoid these problems is to SEVERELY reduce the amount of meat consumed, if not elliminate it completely.

Remember, this is not the "Yeah, but I like my Rib-eye" thread, this is the "My doctor told me I'm lucky to be alive, here swallow these pills" thread.


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## gunsaler111 (Apr 10, 2011)

Good thread! Ive decided to get mine in line too! I quite dippin in oct. ,drink only water, and just got home an hour ago with some fish oil and garlic pills,and a multivitamin.
 I dont wanna die of a heart attack at 43 like my pops!


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## whitetaco02 (Apr 10, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> Frank, my doctor recommends deer for me over all other red meat. That`s the main reason we fill the freezer every year. Plus, the fact that we raise most of what we eat, helps a lot.



That is ALL I eat.  I cannot even begin to tell you the last time I have eaten a steak or cow burger.  I eat deer meat and chicken.  That is all the meat I eat.  My doctor told me for three months to just eat it once a week instead of three.  Kind of a trial and error thing I guess.  I hope with the diet thing going on I can get the numbers low.  I do not want to be put on meds.


The doctor flat out told me if I don't watch it, 5 years after I retire I am going to be looking for which nursing home I want/need to be in!


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## Nitro (Apr 10, 2011)

Add some fish to your diet. Too many healthy complex nutrients in fish to omit from your food pyramid.

Eat fruit for your healthy snack. 

Good luck!!


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## whitetaco02 (Apr 10, 2011)

Nitro said:


> Add some fish to your diet. Too many healthy complex nutrients in fish to omit from your food pyramid.
> 
> Eat fruit for your healthy snack.
> 
> Good luck!!



Andy, been doing just that.   Had salmon last night and we have some in the freezer as well.  I eat a banana and an apple every day along with an orange every now and then.  

These are things I have added to my diet:  whole grain cereals and breads, almonds, pistachios, bananas, extra virgin olive oil for dressings and cooking, fish, albacore tuna, fortified orange juice (two 8 ounce glassesa day) and some veggies such as cucumbers and tomatoes.  Fish oil pills as well as some dark chocolate.  I am sure I am leaving some out but this isn't all I eat but just some stuff I have added.


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## paddlin samurai (Apr 10, 2011)

Though genetics play a large role in our over-all health sometimes you need prescriptions or supplements to stay healthy.  Remember that all over the counter products are not subjected to big brother's (FDA) seal of approval because they have the word "supplement" on their package labeling.

Some products such as Red Yeast Rice,  Niacin, and omega 3 fish oil have been proven to lower cholesterol/triglyceride levels in some patients.  Side effects to watch out for are constipation and flushing, taking 325mg of aspirin can reduce some of the flushing though.  Taking a baby aspirin or  low dose adult aspirin both of which are 81mg probably isnt a bad idea as long as u arent allergic to aspirin, taking a blood thinner, or have ulcers- talk to your doctor before taking any aspirin type products.

For all the ladies out there, try taking 2 Flintstone's gummy bears daily and u should see a difference in your nails.  Give it a couple of months to work.


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## whitetaco02 (Apr 10, 2011)

My doctor recommneded red yeast rice.  Here is what I read and the reason I stopped taking it.

The FDA regulates foods, nutritional supplements, and drugs differently. The nutraceutical companies manufacturing red rice yeast extract were arguing that it was a nutritional supplement, which is not subject to the stringent regulation that drugs are held to. The FDA, on the other hand, contended that since red rice yeast extract contained a prescription drug in it (lovastatin), it should be categorized as a drug and be more tightly regulated. Through many battles in the U.S. Courts beginning in 2000, the FDA has won this position and the formulation of red yeast fermented rice extract was subsequently changed. 

So, does red yeast fermented rice extract work? Yes, if it is fermented in such a way that results in the byproduct monacolin K (lovastatin). Do the currently available red yeast fermented rice extract supplements work? Because of the judgment in favor of the FDA to consider the monacolin K (lovastatin) component of red yeast rice extract a drug, nutraceutical companies have had to change the way the red rice is fermented. 

*As a result, these supplements contain very minute, if any, amounts of the cholesterol-lowering drug, lovastatin. Because of this, the red yeast fermented rice supplements you see on the shelves would not be effective and should not be expected to significantly lower cholesterol levels.*


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## mountainpass (Apr 10, 2011)

golffreak said:


> Other than bad knees and sinuses, and most recently a bad back, I have always had pretty good health. A blood test last year showed my cholesterol way out of whack. My blood pressure, which has always been near perfect, sky rocketed this morning to 155/110 for no obvious reason and has been that way all day. I'm now on the way to the doctor to get it checked out. 155/110 does not feel good at all.



If you drink stop. If you drink caffine stop. If you add salt to food stop.

I had high blood pressure...I don't eat a lot of salt(never add it).....stopped drinking...still high. 

So I quit coffee.

Blood pressure fell to normal levels.


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## mountainpass (Apr 10, 2011)

whitetaco02 said:


> Andy, been doing just that.   Had salmon last night and we have some in the freezer as well.  I eat a banana and an apple every day along with an orange every now and then.
> 
> These are things I have added to my diet:  whole grain cereals and breads, almonds, pistachios, bananas, extra virgin olive oil for dressings and cooking, fish, albacore tuna, fortified orange juice (two 8 ounce glassesa day) and some veggies such as cucumbers and tomatoes.  Fish oil pills as well as some dark chocolate.  I am sure I am leaving some out but this isn't all I eat but just some stuff I have added.



I only eat wild Salmon(either canned(Red) or fresh).

The fish I eat is only from cold water(and non-farm raised). I like sardines(and herring) from cold water countries in water or olive oil.

The albacore(white) tuna has higher levels of mercury than the regular...so they say.

I try to stay away from large glasses of juice(lots of sugars). I also don't like fortified stuff(lots of extra ingredients...go with the most natural). If it's something you need, take a vitamin(most fortified stuff has the cheapest ....least digestible vitamins added).

One other thing ..I kinda hit on it already...read the ingredient list....if an 8 year old can't read it....don't buy it.


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## whitetaco02 (Apr 11, 2011)

mountainpass said:


> I only eat wild Salmon(either canned(Red) or fresh).
> 
> The fish I eat is only from cold water(and non-farm raised). I like sardines(and herring) from cold water countries in water or olive oil.
> 
> ...



This is why I chose fortified orange juice:

Well some people even made it healthier… by fortifying OJ with plant sterols, and thus coming up with a heart-healthy drink.


Plant cholesterols known as sterols — recognized for their cholesterol-lowering power when added to margarines, salad dressings and other fats — also have been found to be effective in reducing low-density lipoprotein, or “bad” cholesterol” levels, when added to orange juice. Now, UC Davis researchers have found that twice-daily servings of a reduced-calorie orange juice beverage fortified with plant sterols also reduces levels of C-reactive protein, a marker of inflammation and an accepted risk marker for heart disease.

The study has been published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. The beverages used in the study were provided by the The Coca-Cola Company’s Beverage Institute for Health & Wellness. Didn’t say which brand, though, but my guess would be Minute Maid Heart Wise Orange Juice, launched as a heart-healthy juice a couple of years ago.


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## mountainpass (Apr 11, 2011)

whitetaco02 said:


> This is why I chose fortified orange juice:
> 
> Well some people even made it healthier… by fortifying OJ with plant sterols, and thus coming up with a heart-healthy drink.
> 
> ...





> FILTERED WATER, CONCENTRATED ORANGE JUICE, PLANT STEROLS*
> 
> 
> 
> *Derived from highly refined vegetable oils such as soybean or peanut.


http://www.minutemaid.ca/en/products/fortified_juices/original_oj_hw_ct.htm

I would like to point out...



			
				from same link said:
			
		

> Consuming 2 grams of plant sterols per day or 2-3 servings of plant sterol .....



I would get those from a better source as I am against highly refined foods.  For example: http://www.swansonvitamins.com/SWU503/ItemDetail?n=0

If you want orange juice...squeeze your own, or buy some from Florida(not from CONCENTRATE). All Minute Maid is from CONCENTRATE and partly from countries other than the US.


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## mountainpass (Apr 11, 2011)

To be clear.....buy things with less ingredients...natural.

I buy natural peanut butter(organic is fine also). It has peanuts and salt....that's it. SOME "natural" peanut butter has other oils added to help keep the oil from separating...don't fall for it.


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## whitetaco02 (Jul 18, 2011)

Well, I got my results back.  I guess I can't beat genetics!

HDL went from 36 to 41. Good!! 
Triglycerides went from 92 to 81!!  Good!!

LDL only went from 167 to 162. Bad 

So the doctor put me on provastatin sodium for three months and then I will get my blood checked again to see what happens.  

Has anybody ever taken this medication?  Pros and cons?


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## Oldstick (Jul 18, 2011)

I agree it's genetics that have a large role in this.   

53 years old and my cholesteral inexplicably has never been high and I am reasonably certain this is not due to my diet. 

In fact I have an opposite problem.  Both LDL and HDLs are low and the doc say's my HDL is too low.  He gives me meds trying to raise that.

Plus we all know folks that strive to eat right and maintain their weight.  Some of them could eat nothing but grass and still have high cholesteral.


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## whitetaco02 (Jul 18, 2011)

I have lost 25 lbs trying to eat right man!  It is killing me! lol!!


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## drippin' rock (Jul 18, 2011)

Oldstick said:


> I agree it's genetics that have a large role in this.
> 
> 53 years old and my cholesteral inexplicably has never been high and I am reasonably certain this is not due to my diet.
> 
> ...




If you know someone eating nothing but vegetables and their cholesterol is still high(above 150 total), there are two possiblities.  1. They are part of the .001% of the population where genetics actually matter, or 2. They are not being honest about what they eat.

What I mean by the first statement is this: If your genetic history includes things like high cholesterol and heart disease, it is even more important to eat responsibly.  It doesn't matter what kind of meat we discuss.  ALL MEAT, chicken, eggs, salmon, tuna, turkey, pork ,beef, lamb, venison, possum, etc., has Cholesterol.  The amounts in each don't matter.  Every time you eat meat or dairy your are elevating by degrees your total cholesterol. No plant has cholesterol.

Doctors have very little nutrition training in Medical school.  They are taught pills.  Have you listened, truly listened to cholesterol commercials?  "When diet and exercise aren't enough......"  They are lying to the American public.  True diet and exercise are enough.  I won't say it would work for everyone, but if we had a good understanding of real diet, pharmaceutical companies would go belly up.  Pills are not the answer.


----------



## drippin' rock (Jul 18, 2011)

whitetaco02 said:


> Well, I got my results back.  I guess I can't beat genetics!
> 
> HDL went from 36 to 41. Good!!
> Triglycerides went from 92 to 81!!  Good!!
> ...




I went back and read all the posts in this thread, including your original post and question.  You asked if anyone has beat high cholesterol with nothing but diet.  I have replied twice with what I believe to be sound advice.  I want everyone to understand this is not a pro-peta post.  We are discussing diet and health.  

What I am reading is thoughts from people that say they have tried everything but still struggle.  I say I think there is one path not many, if any, here have taken.  Try for one week, eliminating all meat and dairy from your diet.  Don't eat processed foods and don't fry anything. Eat plenty of potatoes, corn, vegetables, and fruit.  Don't starve yourself.  If you get hungry, eat.  Throw the standard three squares a day out the window.  Eat often. Take a cooler to work with plenty of options.  I use plenty of canned food, I drain and rinse to get rid of some of the sodium.  Eat oatmeal with blueberries and bananas for breakfast.  Red, white, and sweet potatoes are good fillers.  Without butter and sour cream, they are perfectly healthy.  Get rid of the too many carb idea.  Eat canned greens, beans, and corn.  Make it fresh, or use frozen.  Pack in the greens.  

We can get all the calcium and protein we need from plant sources.  The incomplete amino acid argument is bogus, old science.  We are talking about achieving good health without pills and doctors.  Of course, if you are having to take pills, "good" health will always be out of reach.


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## Oldstick (Jul 18, 2011)

Well I was using a type of exaggeration about with the "nothing but grass" comment.

I think we need to call FishingAddict to jump in here, right about now....


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## drippin' rock (Jul 18, 2011)

Sure, I get it.  But there are plenty of folks out there that think that way.  I am trying to strip away the fluff and get to the core of the matter.  Pills treat symptoms.  They do not cure.  We have the ability to do that ourselves, simply with the food we put in our mouth.  I apologize if it sounds harsh.  To me, having one's chest cut open, spread apart, a vein ripped out of one's leg to bypass the clogged area, and then be told to take pills for one's remaining days, is pretty harsh.

I am not familar with FishingAddict's views.  What would he say?


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## DAVE (Jul 18, 2011)

You can't beat death, don't worry about it, enjoy life while you got it, because it will be gone before you know it. If you are lucky enough to have long living genes and are good at avoiding accidents you got a good chance of living to an older age. If you are not lucky  and die young, well there are some good things about that to. I just spent several days hanging around an icu for heart patients and most of them had been on cholesterol medication and diets for years but they still had clogged arteries that had to be replaced.


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## drippin' rock (Jul 18, 2011)

Eat, Drink, and be Merry, for tomorrow you may get hit by a bus.  Thanks, but no thanks.


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## Oldstick (Jul 18, 2011)

drippin' rock said:


> Sure, I get it.  But there are plenty of folks out there that think that way.  I am trying to strip away the fluff and get to the core of the matter.  Pills treat symptoms.  They do not cure.  We have the ability to do that ourselves, simply with the food we put in our mouth.  I apologize if it sounds harsh.  To me, having one's chest cut open, spread apart, a vein ripped out of one's leg to bypass the clogged area, and then be told to take pills for one's remaining days, is pretty harsh.
> 
> I am not familar with FishingAddict's views.  What would he say?



He would agree 100% with you and I do also in a general sense.  That is one of the main points they hammer on in the health education classes held for new patients with diabetes, heart etc.  The longterm solution is diet and excercise, hoping to alleviate the need for medications.


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## drippin' rock (Jul 18, 2011)

Oldstick said:


> He would agree 100% with you and I do also in a general sense.  That is one of the main points they hammer on in the health education classes held for new patients with diabetes, heart etc.  The longterm solution is diet and excercise, hoping to alleviate the need for medications.



Cool.   I know how unpopular advocating a meat free lifestyle can be, especially on this forum.  I have been following it for going on 8 months now and feel fantastic.  When I see such positive results in myself( a self-proclaimed grill guru up until Jan. this year) I naturally want to share it with everyone.  It is hard, and it is a major change, but I want to live as long and as disease free as possible.  I want to be around to see my daughters grow up, and the way I was treating myself virtually insured that would not happen.  I feel like I have taken control of my life.  I know we don't live forever, I know any number of things could happen.  By eating the absolute healthiest food I can, I am giving myself the best chance possible to go though the rest of my life without having to go on and live off the pills Doctors love to push.


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## Oldstick (Jul 18, 2011)

drippin' rock said:


> Cool.   I know how unpopular advocating a meat free lifestyle can be, especially on this forum.



Now totally meat free???  You done lost me on that one....

No way can I do that.



I am trying to monitor total carbs due to high glucose readings.  

That is another thing about me I am perplexed about and I think the doctors are also perplexed.  Every time I or the doctor takes a glucose reading it is high, in the type 2diabetic range.  This is anytime, morning fasting, before/after meals, middle of the night, whenever.  

However I also get the A1C blood test done every 3 to 6 months.  This is the test they swear by for diabetics supposedly to get a true average of your blood sugar over a several month period.  And this result is always low, in the non-diabetic range.  And it has been for years, ever since they concluded I might be type 2 diabetic.


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## golffreak (Jul 18, 2011)

I've had my trigs way out of whack before. It is unreal how bad you can feel when your trigs are as high as mine were. Good luck to you...


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## drippin' rock (Jul 18, 2011)

Oldstick said:


> Now totally meat free???  You done lost me on that one....
> 
> No way can I do that.
> 
> ...



What types of things do you eat?  I know when folks talk about monitoring carbs, potatoes usually get lumped into the "bad" category.  Thing with corn and potatoes and grains even, is that they are "calorie dilute".  This means you get plenty of filling bulk for not so many calories.  You also get plenty of insoluble fiber.  This fiber occurs in all vegetables.  Fiber helps control blood sugar.  It slows down digestion and sugar absorbtion.  The more fiber in your diet the better.  If you drink apple juice for instance, you are getting the juice and sugar of several apples and none of the fiber.  Eating an apple and drinking water adds the fiber and not so much sugar.  

There is no fiber in meat.  

Have you ever heard a doctor say," WOW.  Your antioxident and vitamin C levels are off the charts. And you are getting way too much fiber.  Maybe you need to cut back on the brocoli and eat more steak."?  

There are some doctors out there that know the best health possible can be acheived by cutting out meat and processed foods.  They also know they would loose mega business if they advocated a meat free diet.  Plus, nobody wants to hear that!  Give up chicken wings and pork rinds???? What are you smoking?


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## breampole (Jul 18, 2011)

Fish oil will help as will olive oil.  Bragg (brand) apple cider vinegar is good for you.  Need to dilute it with water so as not to eat up your system.  Can make a salad dressing with it and olive oil.  Also grape juices from store are basically flavored sugar water.  Go to health food store and get some black cherry juice concentrate and make your own black cherry juice.  Very tasty drink and good mixed with plain yogart without dilution.  On your way to being diabetic eating sweets like that.  Happened to me.  As far as I know I am first in family to have type 2 diabeties.   Also the vitamin Niacin may well change your numbers.  The internist I go to in Augusta put me on that vitamin and it worked wonders.  When the diabeties really kicked in it stopped being effective.  However it like the medicines can damage liver so need to let Dr. know you are taking it.  Also Niacin can cause a heat flush and rash that lasts for up to 30 minutes.  I rarely had that.  Niacin is in your multiple vitamins usually 50-100 mg.  I would try maybe another 200 mg and see what happens.  Stuff is cheap and buy in 100 mg tablets or capsules if try it.  Don't buy the acid or the time released.  Acid is something else and time released don't work.  Also if take a statin dose will pobably be 20 mg.  My wife took half or 10 mg and got a terrific result in 3 months.   The prescription was for 40 mg but she was told to half that.  The drug store halfed it for her and she didn't realize she wasn't supposed to half it again and would bite the 1/2 tablet in half so she was taking 10 mg instead of 20.  So might try halfing the tablets and see what happens.  She couldn't tolerate the niacin.


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## whitetaco02 (Jul 18, 2011)

DAVE said:


> You can't beat death, don't worry about it, enjoy life while you got it, because it will be gone before you know it. If you are lucky enough to have long living genes and are good at avoiding accidents you got a good chance of living to an older age. If you are not lucky  and die young, well there are some good things about that to. I just spent several days hanging around an icu for heart patients and most of them had been on cholesterol medication and diets for years but they still had clogged arteries that had to be replaced.



The doctor told me that if I don't watch it 5 years after I retire I will be looking to see what nursing home I need to be in.  That will be at 57 years of age.  Way too young to be in a nursing home!  All of my numbers are great except that LDL number.  I do not eat bad!  I am actually afraid to start taking the medication.  I heard it causes muscle pain!


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## whitetaco02 (Jul 18, 2011)

breampole said:


> Fish oil will help as will olive oil.  Bragg (brand) apple cider vinegar is good for you.  Need to dilute it with water so as not to eat up your system.  Can make a salad dressing with it and olive oil.  Also grape juices from store are basically flavored sugar water.  Go to health food store and get some black cherry juice concentrate and make your own black cherry juice.  Very tasty drink and good mixed with plain yogart without dilution.  On your way to being diabetic eating sweets like that.  Happened to me.  As far as I know I am first in family to have type 2 diabeties.   Also the vitamin Niacin may well change your numbers.  The internist I go to in Augusta put me on that vitamin and it worked wonders.  When the diabeties really kicked in it stopped being effective.  However it like the medicines can damage liver so need to let Dr. know you are taking it.  Also Niacin can cause a heat flush and rash that lasts for up to 30 minutes.  I rarely had that.  Niacin is in your multiple vitamins usually 50-100 mg.  I would try maybe another 200 mg and see what happens.  Stuff is cheap and buy in 100 mg tablets or capsules if try it.  Don't buy the acid or the time released.  Acid is something else and time released don't work.  Also if take a statin dose will pobably be 20 mg.  My wife took half or 10 mg and got a terrific result in 3 months.   The prescription was for 40 mg but she was told to half that.  The drug store halfed it for her and she didn't realize she wasn't supposed to half it again and would bite the 1/2 tablet in half so she was taking 10 mg instead of 20.  So might try halfing the tablets and see what happens.  She couldn't tolerate the niacin.



The pills my doctor prescribed are 40 mg.  I am very nervous about taking them.  I hate it!  I just turned 33 and already have to be on medicine.  They did say if I get my numbers down I can get off the meds so hopefully that will happen.


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## FishingAddict (Aug 26, 2011)

Diet and exercise will help everyone move in the right direction. It won't help everyone get to ideal levels that we test for now.  That being said, we don't have all the right tests to definitively predict heart attack risk.  Some people who have all the "defined right levels" still have heart attacks.  Some people who have horrible levels never get the first problem (albeit, it's much less likely to survive what we call bad cholesterol levels over a long period of time).

It's one of those things that we are still learning about.  20 years from now well have a whole new perspective on it all, much like we have a whole new perspective on what we knew 20 years ago.


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## FishingAddict (Aug 26, 2011)

david w. said:


> Why does all of the good stuff gotta be bad for you?



Our bodies are driven to crave things that keep us alive- energy.  Unfortunately, we were designed before the invention of processed food.

If you only ate things that were found in nature (only eat things that you can kill or grow in their natural state), you'd most likely be in good shape.  And you would't be tempted to over eat.

Processed food takes takes all the "good stuff" for our body out of natural foods, and leaves us only with the things that our bodies are programmed to crave.  Taking out the "good stuff," with out writing a book about insulin and saturated fats, wrecks our bodies over time.  And because it loads foods with stuff we are programmed to eat, we eat too much of it, which is poison to our body as well.

For an example of how processed foods drive us to eat too much:   If you fixed 8 pieces of baked chicken, you would most likely to stop at 2-3 pieces (1-2 if you are smaller or female) and not be tempted to eat more.  If you had eight pieces of pizza in front of you, you would consume enough calories around 2 pieces if you don't move around enough, but it's likely you'd eat at least 4-6 (or more) because it's so tasty.   And in the process spike blood sugar levels (which spikes insulin, which promotes fat storage and cholesterol production as well as a host of other problems).


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## FishingAddict (Aug 26, 2011)

turtlebug said:


> Not sure what to tell you. I see people every day that eat like rabbits trying to get their cholesterol under control and fail miserably. I still say genetics plays a key role.
> 
> My grandfather was a butcher. We grew up eating everything fried, in lard no doubt, and my cholesterol levels are a doctor's dream. I stay pretty active but I eat what I want... sometimes in moderation, sometimes not, depends on what the hormones are telling me at the time.  Sometimes they tell me to single handedly cause a Ben & Jerry's shortage.  We do eat a LOT of baked and sautee'd chicken, rice, veggies but I fry something at least once a week.
> 
> ...




You are dead on about genetics.  My wife does very little to exercise, however has a good cholesterol (HdL) level twice what is considered good (it is off the charts- and is typically associated with living past 100 years old regardless of diet and exercise).  I exercise a good bit, eat a better diet, but have almost half of the good cholesterol level she has. 

Meds should be avoided if you can.  That being said, if it's a matter of lowering your cholesterol level to something that will make you live longer, it may be worth the risk of a side effect, which can typically be reversed upon not taking the meds. 

In the case of Lamisil for toe nail fungus- I'm with you 100%. It's not worth taking the risk of messing up your liver for a prettier toe nail!


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## FishingAddict (Aug 26, 2011)

rhbama3 said:


> Nope. Thats why i suggested grape juice if you don't want to drink wine. Gotta be red or purple grapes.



Actually, more recent data shows that any alcohol, in moderation (1 drink for females a day or 1-2 for men) will significantly reduce cardiovascular disease.  In fact, currently the studies show that it's better for your cardiovascular system than moderate exercise.  The reason it's not promoted much is because many people can't stop at 1 to 2 (I'm guilty!) and after that it causes more damage to other systems.

Red wine is thought to be somewhat better than other alcohol beverages because it has much more antioxidants from the grape.  I'm not aware of any studies that show any definitive proof of that, however.


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## FishingAddict (Aug 26, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> Frank, my doctor recommends deer for me over all other red meat. That`s the main reason we fill the freezer every year. Plus, the fact that we raise most of what we eat, helps a lot.



Spot on!  You know the reason that wild meat is better for you than farm raised?  Same reason that our cholesterol levels go up if we eat processed grains and don't move much!

Processed grains raise insulin levels which promote fat gain and cholesterol production.  Cholesterol production does not come only from eating meat: Cows don't eat any and if they are corn fed, they have tons of it- which we in turn will absorb when we eat it.


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## FishingAddict (Aug 26, 2011)

whitetaco02 said:


> This is why I chose fortified orange juice:
> 
> Well some people even made it healthier… by fortifying OJ with plant sterols, and thus coming up with a heart-healthy drink.
> 
> ...




Avoid OJ if you are fighting cholesterol. It will raise your insulin levels, and I've just mentioned what that will do to you.  There are plenty of places to get plant sterols with out drinking it- go for veggies!!

Keep in mind much of the "advertised" things we see are to make us buy more product even if it has shoddy data.  For example, the government recommends that we eat a good deal of grain- which is one of the reasons we have such bad health issues in the country (since most of it is highly processed.)  Why do they recommend such high grain?  Lobbiests. Same reason we have that cruddy ethanol in our gas.

Google "summary of book good calorie bad calorie" for more info.  I don't agree with everything it says (it says ONLY insulin production causes fat gain, and exercise does not work- over looking that exercise causes less insulin to be needed to be used)- but it will enlighten you to how big money influences us to occasionally thing the wrong way.


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## FishingAddict (Aug 26, 2011)

whitetaco02 said:


> The pills my doctor prescribed are 40 mg.  I am very nervous about taking them.  I hate it!  I just turned 33 and already have to be on medicine.  They did say if I get my numbers down I can get off the meds so hopefully that will happen.



Check out the book "Paleo Diet"  Do your best to eat that way (strive for monthly progression, not immediate perfection)- that with exercise will most likely get you where you want to be.


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## FishingAddict (Aug 26, 2011)

drippin' rock said:


> Cool.   I know how unpopular advocating a meat free lifestyle can be, especially on this forum.  I have been following it for going on 8 months now and feel fantastic.  When I see such positive results in myself( a self-proclaimed grill guru up until Jan. this year) I naturally want to share it with everyone.  It is hard, and it is a major change, but I want to live as long and as disease free as possible.  I want to be around to see my daughters grow up, and the way I was treating myself virtually insured that would not happen.  I feel like I have taken control of my life.  I know we don't live forever, I know any number of things could happen.  By eating the absolute healthiest food I can, I am giving myself the best chance possible to go though the rest of my life without having to go on and live off the pills Doctors love to push.



Protein should be a good chunk of your diet.  That being said, most of the red meat we buy in stores (unless you are paying $7 a pound for grass fed beef or bison) is junk.  Lean meats or wild meats, in my opinion, are good for you- you were made to eat them.


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## FishingAddict (Aug 26, 2011)

breampole said:


> Fish oil will help as will olive oil.  Bragg (brand) apple cider vinegar is good for you.  Need to dilute it with water so as not to eat up your system.  Can make a salad dressing with it and olive oil.  Also grape juices from store are basically flavored sugar water.  Go to health food store and get some black cherry juice concentrate and make your own black cherry juice.  Very tasty drink and good mixed with plain yogart without dilution.  On your way to being diabetic eating sweets like that.  Happened to me.  As far as I know I am first in family to have type 2 diabeties.   Also the vitamin Niacin may well change your numbers.  The internist I go to in Augusta put me on that vitamin and it worked wonders.  When the diabeties really kicked in it stopped being effective.  However it like the medicines can damage liver so need to let Dr. know you are taking it.  Also Niacin can cause a heat flush and rash that lasts for up to 30 minutes.  I rarely had that.  Niacin is in your multiple vitamins usually 50-100 mg.  I would try maybe another 200 mg and see what happens.  Stuff is cheap and buy in 100 mg tablets or capsules if try it.  Don't buy the acid or the time released.  Acid is something else and time released don't work.  Also if take a statin dose will pobably be 20 mg.  My wife took half or 10 mg and got a terrific result in 3 months.   The prescription was for 40 mg but she was told to half that.  The drug store halfed it for her and she didn't realize she wasn't supposed to half it again and would bite the 1/2 tablet in half so she was taking 10 mg instead of 20.  So might try halfing the tablets and see what happens.  She couldn't tolerate the niacin.




Over the counter time release niacin can damage your liver.  The prescription stuff, while insanely expensive, can be better.

If you want to take over the counter non time released niacin, take it right before bed...many times you will sleep right through the flushing.  And what ever you do, don't drink when you take it unless you want to experience a whole 'nother level of itching!


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## drippin' rock (Aug 27, 2011)

FishingAddict said:


> Protein should be a good chunk of your diet.  That being said, most of the red meat we buy in stores (unless you are paying $7 a pound for grass fed beef or bison) is junk.  Lean meats or wild meats, in my opinion, are good for you- you were made to eat them.



Can you explain how it is we were made to eat meat?  There is much info out there to suggest otherwise. 

Also, if plaque is made up of Cholesterol, saturated fat, and animal protein, and all of those things are in meat, regardless of leaness, how is eating "lean meat" good for someone prone to high cholesterol and heart disease?


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## drippin' rock (Aug 27, 2011)

FishingAddict said:


> Diet and exercise will help everyone move in the right direction. It won't help everyone get to ideal levels that we test for now.  That being said, we don't have all the right tests to definitively predict heart attack risk.  Some people who have all the "defined right levels" still have heart attacks.  Some people who have horrible levels never get the first problem (albeit, it's much less likely to survive what we call bad cholesterol levels over a long period of time).
> 
> It's one of those things that we are still learning about.  20 years from now well have a whole new perspective on it all, much like we have a whole new perspective on what we knew 20 years ago.


What are the levels tested for now?


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## FishingAddict (Aug 27, 2011)

drippin' rock said:


> What are the levels tested for now?



Depends on how expensive of a test you want to do.

The most common is a typical lipid panel, which includes triglycerides, total cholesterol, HDL, and LDL.

There are more expensive tests that look at the particle size of the fats- basically a break down of the LDL- in other words- what percentage of the LDL are VLDL (LDL stands for low density lipo proteins, and the V on LDL stands for "Very").  Some people have normal LDLs but a high percentage of VLDLs which is thought to be bad.  It's one of those test that there has not been a great deal of outcomes  data (how people fared over the years) on, but it's assumed that if you have high VLDLs you need to address it.

Then there are tests for the "worried well" for high paid CEOs/execs that they do.  They test for levels of things that I've never really looked into (my brother had one done, that's the only way I've heard of it- his company paid for  him to have some kind of $5,000 check up).  The problem with the tests is that they don't know exactly what the numbers mean in the long run because so few people get the tests done, but again, they can make assumptions.


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## FishingAddict (Aug 27, 2011)

drippin' rock said:


> Can you explain how it is we were made to eat meat?  There is much info out there to suggest otherwise.
> 
> Also, if plaque is made up of Cholesterol, saturated fat, and animal protein, and all of those things are in meat, regardless of leaness, how is eating "lean meat" good for someone prone to high cholesterol and heart disease?



Yes, plaque has cholesterol in it.  As does every one of your cell walls.  All of your muscles, including your heart, ARE animal protein.  Plaque also has calcium in it, and I'd recommend that you don't avoid that either ;-).

Every animal has cholesterol in the blood.  It's key to make your body work normally.  Even animals that eat only plants, like cows, have cholesterol (so it's not just what we eat).

How so?  Your liver (or animal's liver) produces it.  When you eat high glycemic foods (like breads, rice, beer, ect), it raises your blood sugar.  Your body increases it's insulin production to lower the blood sugar.  High insulin, among other things like telling your body to store fat, tells your liver to pump out more cholesterol. 

Perhaps a better thing to look at in regards to food is it's omega 3 to omega 6 ratio.  We know that the omega 3 is important to heart health- we need to consume things that have a good 3 to 6 ratio.  Grass fed beef (as well as wild game) has a decent ratio. Grain feed beef has NO omega threes.  Wild salmon has a great ratio.  Farm raised salmon isn't nearly as good. 

Which begs the question: If grain fed beef that gets little exercise and eats high glycemic foods, and farm raised salmon, which eats processed foods and gets little exercise have very bad fat ratios compared to their counterparts which eat low glycemic foods and exercise- might be possible that lowering the amount of high glycemic foods like breads, grains, sugar and such and getting more exercise  be very important to us as well?  Seeing as how people who avoid high glycemic foods and exercise have a longer life on average, I'd have to guess "yes"!

As far as the "lean meat" question": I guess I would have to say it's more important to eat foods that have a better omega 3 to 6 ratio over eating lean meats.  If you had to choose foods that didn't have a good ratio, at least choose the meats that have lower fat content overall, which would expose you to less bad fat.

Heart disease has one thing in common: it's an inflammation process.  I suspect we have a great deal to learn about all of that, but it looks like omega 3s help keep inflammation at bay.  Too much omega 6s with out the 3s promote inflammation.  

One thing I have been looking into, but doesn't have much information on is the amount of inflammation foods have on our bodies when we eat them.  Green veggies and garlic have a very high anti inflammatory response.  Meat have an almost neutral effect.  Grains have a very high inflammatory response, as do legumes (which puzzles me a little).  

In a nut shell- it's not the fat that is bad for us, it's the kind of fat.  And wild game and grass fed beef have pretty good ratios.

Oddly enough, to digress even further, foods in cold grown in cold temps (from salmon for it's good fat ratios, to fruits such as blueberries to cherries for it's low glycemic rating(resulting in less insulin release) and high antioxidants  are much better than warm temp foods (bannanas and pineapples have a high glycemic index and less antioxidants than the prior, tilapia with it's omega ratios which are similar to beef).  Just a general observation I've made over the last couple months.

Vegetarian is an ok way to go- however it's very, very hard to get every one of the 7 essential proteins you need from just plants.  There are several plants that get all of them, like amaranth, but you won't see many people eating that on a daily basis.  Also, going vegetarian and keeping your glycemic index low(and insulin levels low enough to make sure you keep your body from over producing cholesterol) while consuming enough calories is very expensive and fairly difficult.  

No one has figured it all out yet.  That being said, I feel confident that eating meat with a good omega 3 to 6 ratio, or meat that has little fat in it at all, will do any harm when you consider your body will make more bad fats than you can eat if you don't treat it right.


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## pine nut (Aug 27, 2011)

To add a little more confusion or maybe not! :

pine nut     Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buford,GA
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback 

 Eat Saturated Fats... They are good for you! 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I received this email and checked it out. It is quite long but hopefully you will read it. All of us on this board enjoy good foods. This might make you feel less guilty eating foods you like! It could also help you live longer and healthier. I would be interested in any MD's opinion on this AFTER you have read the whole article. It is radically different from what most doctors are telling us today, but it also explains the errors in the research that was used to support the current thinking. 

Here's the link:

http://lewrockwell.com/miller/miller38.1.html

Consumption of margarine made with trans fats has gone up five fold, and vegetable oils, more than fifteen-fold. Along with trans fats, these often rancid vegetable oils are new to the human diet.

A good case can be made that these changes in fat-and-oil consumption over the last hundred years are the major cause of the epidemic of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, stroke, cancer, and learning disabilities in children. Observing the increasing use of vegetable oils during the 1940s and 1950s, a few physicians, notably Dr. Weston A. Price and Dr. Francis Pottenger, predicted that there would be increasing rates of such diseases.

You might want to look at Googling Dr. Donald W. Miller, Jr.,MD and look at his credentials as well. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by pine nut; 08-07-2011 at 12:47 PM.


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## FishingAddict (Aug 28, 2011)

Exellent article. However I'd say it makes a better case that process carbs are our biggest problem.  It is true that trans fats are work of the devil, however it's the increase of processed carbs that has lead to the weight gain, which causes major problems in and of itself.


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## hawg dawg (Aug 28, 2011)

drippin' rock said:


> Can you explain how it is we were made to eat meat?  There is much info out there to suggest otherwise.




God said "Arise Peter, kill and eat"

I'll take God's info.


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## drippin' rock (Aug 28, 2011)

hawg dawg said:


> God said "Arise Peter, kill and eat"
> 
> I'll take God's info.



Bless your heart.  Forgive me if I need a little more than that.


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## hawg dawg (Aug 28, 2011)

drippin' rock said:


> Bless your heart.  Forgive me if I need a little more than that.




Ain't gonna help ya none for me to forgive you.


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## drippin' rock (Aug 28, 2011)

FishingAddict said:


> Yes, plaque has cholesterol in it.  As does every one of your cell walls.  All of your muscles, including your heart, ARE animal protein.  Plaque also has calcium in it, and I'd recommend that you don't avoid that either ;-).
> 
> Every animal has cholesterol in the blood.  It's key to make your body work normally.  Even animals that eat only plants, like cows, have cholesterol (so it's not just what we eat).
> 
> ...



I don't follow the leap you are taking here.  We have cholesterol in us, so we need to eat animals since we are an animal?

I understand that our bodies make cholesterol, and what organ makes it.  What I also understand is that ALL meat has relatively the same amount of cholesterol,regardless of fat content.  For every mouthful of cholesterol we take in, our total cholesterol rises.  Once your total goes over 150, chances of problems start to grow exponentially.  Take animal products out of the diet, and cholesterol problems go away.  Are there people out there that have problems with their own cholesterol production?  Maybe... What are those numbers?  .03-.04 percent of the population?  Our bodies are a perfect machine. It makes all the cholesterol we need.  No plant protein has cholesterol.

You suggest I should not avoid calcium.  I don't- but just to further the conversation, where does calcium come from?

I completely and whole heartedly disagree with you about the vegetarian- insufficient protein argument.  That's 20 year old bad science. I follow a whole food, plant based, cholesterol free diet, and with the exception of B-12 three or four years down the road (our bodies store enough to last awhile), I get all the nutrients I need to live a vigorous, disease free life.

Also, a word about the "Paleo- diet".  I don't get why this concept should even remotely apply to us today.  The Paleolithic period was what, 8,000 to 10,000 years ago?  95% of daily calories were burned in the pursuit of more calories.  They had no concept of what killed them, they were just worried about living to the next day.  Their entire being centered around gathering and hunting food.

Today, we understand how the body works, and are starting to see what really causes most of the health problems we face.  It is the food we put in our mouths.  We are what we eat.

I'm sure if one exercises enough, and eats ONLY the leanest, purest meat and plenty of fruits and veggies and no processed food, they can live full lives relatively disease free.  WHO DOES THAT?  One percent of the population??  

I gather from your posts that you are a smart person.  I want to issue a challenge to you.  Assuming you haven't read it yet, go get a copy of "The China Study" by Dr. T. Colin Campbell, and read it cover to cover.  (16 bucks at Books a Million).  Then let me know if any knowledge you hold up to be true is swayed.


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## drippin' rock (Aug 28, 2011)

hawg dawg said:


> Ain't gonna help ya none for me to forgive you.



Brother, I am sure you are a great guy, But I have ZERO interest in what religion has to say on this matter.  

But just for argument sake, go see what Genesis 1:29 has to say on this subject.


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## hawg dawg (Aug 28, 2011)

drippin' rock said:


> Brother, I am sure you are a great guy, But I have ZERO interest in what religion has to say on this matter.
> 
> But just for argument sake, go see what Genesis 1:29 has to say on this subject.



Genesis 9:23? Since you're not interested in what religion has to say we'll talk about what God has to say maybe?


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## drippin' rock (Aug 28, 2011)

hawg dawg said:


> Genesis 9:23? Since you're not interested in what religion has to say we'll talk about what God has to say maybe?



Genesis 9:23- But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness.

???


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## drippin' rock (Aug 29, 2011)

hawg dawg said:


> Genesis 9:23? Since you're not interested in what religion has to say we'll talk about what God has to say maybe?



Genesis 1:29 is directly out of God's mouth.  

Since 9:23 talks about Noah being drunk and naked, I'm sure you meant Genesis 9:1, where God grants permission to eat of everything.  The interesting part for me is the realization that up until the flood no one ate meat.  I wonder what changed with the flood?  And if no meat was eaten before the flood, did Noah take seeds and plants on the Ark as well?  It doesn't say.

Another interesting thought is this:  We have an understanding today of what causes disease and sickness.  We know that poor diet causes everything from Heart attacks, to obesity, stroke, many forms of cancer, to type II diabetes.  We know that plaque builds up in the arteries over a lifetime of unhealthy eating to eventually block arteries and cause serious problems.  We know that plaque is made up of Cholesterol, saturated fat, and animal protein.  We know that  eating meat provides all three ingredients for plaque.

In 1 Corinthians 6:19, We are reminded that our body is a temple that does not belong to us.  So if we eat things that typically lead to an untimely death, are we not desecrating that temple???

Another interesting example is given in Daniel 1:1-16.  Daniel does not want to eat of the king's food, and askes to be given vegetables and water instead.  After ten days, he and the others that ate the restricted diet appeared healthier and more vital than the ones eating the King's food.  When the king saw this, he put all the young men on that diet.

So even in the Old Testiment examples can be found that prove a vegan diet superior to an omnivorous one.


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## tween_the_banks (Aug 29, 2011)

There are some pretty fantastic things that regular fasting will fix. Look into juice fasting. I've thought about juice fasting two days a week. It'll flush you out, give your digestion a break, and it is super healthy. There's Documentary out about this Guy who was very sick and on 30 different meds. He juice fasted for 60 days and was cured... It's. Very intriguing. A lot of what we eat is so processed and unnatural that going organic would be a good idea too, especially someone whose help is on the decline.
Hope this helps.


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## tween_the_banks (Aug 29, 2011)

People on here curious about health in general, check out "Food rules" and "The Omnivore's Dilemma" by Micheal Pollen. It'll really change how you look at food.


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## Oldstick (Aug 29, 2011)

I go out of town for one week and look what I've missed...


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## Darien1 (Aug 30, 2011)

I'm surprised no one here has mentioned the Adkins diet.  My cardiologist agrees with me that it works to lower blood lipids.  My levels were fine when I had my heart attact and quad. bypass 15 years ago but heart disease runs in my family.  The Adkins diet allows me to eat all the protein I want and I cut way, way back on all carbs.  Steak, burgers, roast, chicken, fish, cheese, butter, pork, all I want or care to eat, but no carbs.  Carbs are the real reason that people are piling on the weight and having heat attacks.  Sugar is the killer in America not fat.  We werre not designed to eat sugar.  We eat meat and greens.

Check out Adkins and it might be right for you.  My blood pressure is perfect,I have lost about 55 pounds over the last 2 years and have no problem keeping it off.  It's the easiest eating plan I have ever followed.


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## drippin' rock (Aug 30, 2011)

Respectfully, If I ever have need for a cardiologist, and they suggest Atkins anything, I will immediately find another cardiologist.  That goes for any other type of doctor as well.


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## FishingAddict (Aug 30, 2011)

I have respect for you; you can intelligently discuss a topic with out getting bent out of shape or calling names.  Kudos.  Not a skill many on here have.



drippin' rock said:


> I don't follow the leap you are taking here.  We have cholesterol in us, so we need to eat animals since we are an animal?
> 
> Not saying that we need to eat cholesterol, I'm just saying that having it in our body will not cause cardiovascular disease since it's already there and our body makes too much of it when we eat too many refined carbs.
> 
> ...



You have made me remember how important omega 3s are to the diet.  I do take omega 3 supplements, especially when I eat non game meat.  Omega 3s are important to keep inflammation down in our bodies- inflammation ultimately is the thing that leads to heart disease and cancer.  I wonder if the low amount of omega 3 (to omega 6 ratio), along with the high glycemic processed carbs are the thing that is killing us....well, I ALMOST know it looking at the data....


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## FishingAddict (Aug 30, 2011)

drippin' rock said:


> Respectfully, If I ever have need for a cardiologist, and they suggest Atkins anything, I will immediately find another cardiologist.  That goes for any other type of doctor as well.



Atkins will lower blood lipids; it's been proven time and time again...again- it's the low glycemic foods that it asks for.  If that were combined with only game/grass fed/wild fish, and increase low glycemic carbs (as I understand it has modified to over time, much like the south beach and mediterranean diet) it'd be a absolute winner, however Atkins does not do much to mention what kind of meat to eat.


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## FishingAddict (Aug 30, 2011)

One other thing I'd like to mention- I consider myself an athlete (or at least a gym rat), and I need to consume at least 120-180 grams of protein a day, which is darn near impossible on a vegetarian diet.


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## Oldstick (Aug 31, 2011)

FishingAddict said:


> Atkins will lower blood lipids; it's been proven time and time again...again- it's the low glycemic foods that it asks for.  If that were combined with only game/grass fed/wild fish, and increase low glycemic carbs (as I understand it has modified to over time, much like the south beach and mediterranean diet) it'd be a absolute winner, however Atkins does not do much to mention what kind of meat to eat.



I have to agree with this concept as well.  This is similar to what the American Diabetes Association diet recommendations follow.

During the months (a couple years ago) I was putting forth an effort to adhere to low carb/low glycemic I easily dropped from 205 to near 180 with very little additional exercise other than the normal walking and activity I do every day.  And Yes I need to get serious again because I am back to 190+ and I really should be around 170 or less.

But if you think about it most people can easily eliminate 1000 or more calories a day, just by cutting out sugary tea, soda, beer, potatos, rice, white bread, beans plus limit to small amounts of whole grains.  I know I probably use to consume 2000 a day of the above items.  Remember white starches are the same as sugar to your body, because they are converted to sugar shortly after you eat them.

Whole grain items, while still considered carb/starches, are better (in small amounts) because they are part fiber/part starch which slows down the sugar spiking process.


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## elfiii (Aug 31, 2011)

This thread is depressing. Had my physical 2 months ago and at 59 the Dr finally corralled me into BP meds. LDL was 133 and he says if that ain't down by November I'm on cholesterol meds too.

Think I'll just stay home and drank no how.


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## drippin' rock (Aug 31, 2011)

Oldstick said:


> I have to agree with this concept as well.  This is similar to what the American Diabetes Association diet recommendations follow.
> 
> During the months (a couple years ago) I was putting forth an effort to adhere to low carb/low glycemic I easily dropped from 205 to near 180 with very little additional exercise other than the normal walking and activity I do every day.  And Yes I need to get serious again because I am back to 190+ and I really should be around 170 or less.
> 
> ...



It's too bad you guys don't agree with me, because I'm right and ya'll are just dum..... just kidding! .

         I have only been on this path for the last 9 months, so I am fairly new to the game of health and nutrition.  When I started January 11th, I was 290 lbs.  I am 240 now and slowly dropping.  I have a good friend that has followed a vegan diet(also less than 10 grams of total fat intake a day) for the last 15 years, and I have gotten much of my info and guidance from him.  I read peer reviewed journals from places like Harvard School of Medicine and The Mayo Clinic, and Doctors like Dean Ornish, John, Mcdougall, Caldwell Esselstyn, T. Colin Campbell, and John Novack.  

        All that to say, I am not approaching this lightly.  I turned 40 this year, and I spent most of my 30's overweight. My whole life to this point had been centered around meat.            
       Recently, I've seen many people my age and just a little older suffer from many health problems.  I realized I was heading down the same path.  I had been talking to my friend that follows a vegan diet, and it finally made sense to me.  Overnight I quit all meat and dairy, and immediately saw improvement. 

       What I learned is that there  is a set of diseases typically called "Diseases of Affluence" that have come to plague Western Societies.  This list includes but is not limited to Type II Diabetes, Heart Disease, Heart Attack, Stroke, Obesity, and several forms of Arthritis(such as gout). 
        I also learned that these diseases are brought on by the Western habit of eating great amounts of meat, dairy, and processed food.  I learned how our bodies process the food we eat, and saw that meat and dairy does more harm than good.  

      I keep circling back  to Cholesterol, but I feel it is such a key player in this discussion.  If the build-up over time in our veins is made up of the materials derived from meat and cheese, why on earth would we continue to eat such harmful substances?  I know folks like to bring up genetics and heredity, but I have read and seen time and time again where those hurdles were leaped by simply avoiding harmful foods.  If you have a history of heart disease and diabetes in your family, and you have a stroke, it means you have the same lifestyle as the ones before you.  It's that simple. 

       Our popular culture has rammed down our throats the concept of "Beef, it's what's for Dinner" and "Got milk?"
We've heard it so much, it must be good for us!

     Where do cows get calcium?  They get it from grass, and grass gets it from dirt.  Why does it make sense to go to milk and cheese to get calcium?  It doesn't.  Women are bombarded with the message that milk, cheese, and yogurt are important for bone health.  Ater all, you don't want to get Osteoporosis!!  Why is it that the US suffers higher rates of this disease that other countries that eat less milk and cheese?  Because the protein found in Dairy products is acidic in nature.  Our bodies fight that acidity by pulling calcium phosphate out of our bones.  The phosphate neutralizes the acid from the animal protein, and the calcium is urinated away.  Over the course of a lifetime that repeated process of neutralization weakens the bones and causes the very problems that we are taught milk wards off.  I.E. Dairy helps lead to the very disease we are taught it fights. It's criminal.

     I follow what one could call a Starch-based diet.  I eat potatoes, corn, and whole grains, rounded off by plenty of vegetables and fruit.  I eat alot.  Hunger is the enemy of any effort to change dietary habits.

That's all I have for now.  Gotta go to work.........


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