# Collar conditioning



## acemedic1 (Aug 6, 2012)

How many sessions should I apply the stimulation for each command? I see the importance in freebies, but with my formal obedience I barely gave freebies with the stick.  At least for the first dozen sessions or so. Should I do the same with the collar or mix in more freebie sessions?

My other question.  Is it ok to revisit cc frequently?  I guess im asking if it hurts later down the road to continually collar condition my OB with the command then stimulation until compliance style?
Thanks guys,  just trying to clear up some misconceptions on my part.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 6, 2012)

i CC to here at 4-5 months.
then not using the collar for anything else till collar fetch.

not quite clear on what you're asking, but a collar is a tool that can/most likely be used all the dogs working life to reinforce known commands and gain quicker compliance. 

almost sounds like you're "nagging" the dog a bit if you're asking what i think you are. 

how old is the dog?
where are you in training?
and what method/program/sequence are you following?


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## acemedic1 (Aug 6, 2012)

Im sorry, my questions are vague sounding.  
Ok my pup is right at seven months old.  He has had all of his OB done on a slip chain and check chord, and is completely aware of the commands I will be asking.  Plan on CC to here tomorrow. I just want to know how long the conditioning part is...CC is a transition from the check chord correction to e collar stimulus right?....how much time should I spend on making sure he understands that the e collar is there in place of the check chord?  how many sessions did you keep the check chord on before taking the dog off lead for good?  I have smartworks and have tried to stick with it but have had to use other sources for my own "training" I guess you would say. 
I will CC and then send to a local pro for FF.  Then I will resume Smartworks for the waterforce, pilework, casting etc..


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 6, 2012)

acemedic1 said:


> Im sorry, my questions are vague sounding.
> Ok my pup is right at seven months old.  He has had all of his OB done on a slip chain and check chord, and is completely aware of the commands I will be asking.  Plan on CC to here tomorrow. I just want to know how long the conditioning part is...CC is a transition from the check chord correction to e collar stimulus right?....how much time should I spend on making sure he understands that the e collar is there in place of the check chord?  how many sessions did you keep the check chord on before taking the dog off lead for good?  I have smartworks and have tried to stick with it but have had to use other sources for my own "training" I guess you would say.
> I will CC and then send to a local pro for FF.  Then I will resume Smartworks for the waterforce, pilework, casting etc..



I CC to here the way evan does in smart works. Generally I'm done in 2 short sessions. I just did an 8 month old chocolate dog in 2 short sessions and she GOT it. the idea isn't really to get the dog to see the ecollar takes the place of the cord .  the idea is that if they come to you really fast when you say here, the pressure turns off. maybe semantics but thats the way i see it.


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## ngaduck (Aug 6, 2012)

I have to ask, why are you sending the dog off for force fetch if you plan to do water force, swimby, etc? If it were me, I would go ahead and let the pro take him through t-work, water force, and swimby. They can be just as much or more of a headache than FF, IMO.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 6, 2012)

ngaduck said:


> I have to ask, why are you sending the dog off for force fetch if you plan to do water force, swimby, etc? If it were me, I would go ahead and let the pro take him through t-work, water force, and swimby. They can be just as much or more of a headache than FF, IMO.



i agree

oh yeah and thanks for standing me up on "land blinds" day.


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## ngaduck (Aug 6, 2012)

I told you that it probably wouldn't happen. I'm good the rest of the week though.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 6, 2012)

if i don't go to sandy springs tomorrow evening. we're on. more land blinds.


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## acemedic1 (Aug 6, 2012)

Turkey Trax said:


> I CC to here the way evan does in smart works. Generally I'm done in 2 short sessions. I just did an 8 month old chocolate dog in 2 short sessions and she GOT it. the idea isn't really to get the dog to see the ecollar takes the place of the cord .  the idea is that if they come to you really fast when you say here, the pressure turns off. maybe semantics but thats the way i see it.



you got me now, that was what I wanted reassurance on.  I plan on using EG's method, walking up the pressure ladder and then down again.  My main concern was that I was going to have to repeat that session multiple times rather than just reinforce if I had compliance issues.


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## acemedic1 (Aug 6, 2012)

ngaduck said:


> I have to ask, why are you sending the dog off for force fetch if you plan to do water force, swimby, etc? If it were me, I would go ahead and let the pro take him through t-work, water force, and swimby. They can be just as much or more of a headache than FF, IMO.



Well I would love to ff myself and do it all, but my work schedule would keep from being able to train everyday.  From what I have read and heard, FF is the one thing that needs to be done very consistently.  I have been visiting and talking with a couple differently trainers and the general consensus is that FF is the ground work for the future training, and that groundwork should be done correctly.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 6, 2012)

some do it after FF (lardy) but some do before (graham). i prefer before cause its a safety issue to me to be able to have a reliable "here" in my pocket to use when needed. plus i can continue teaching longer and longer marks and not have to worry with a 100 foot + check cord.


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## Folsom (Aug 6, 2012)

You are just teaching the dog to turn off the pressure, as a bonus you get a really nice response to "here". I don't know about you, but my dogs "revisit" it often during their working life. When I say revisit it means during work the collar is used when I have a less then desirable response to the command "here". 

If you take all the steps you can usually successfully complete it in a week (this is not set in stone). After teaching here I will do a couple of sessions of "de-bolting", the collar is used on "here" also no matter the response.


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## acemedic1 (Aug 6, 2012)

Thanks for the replies...I will post up tomorrow and let yall know how it goes...


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## Joe Overby (Aug 7, 2012)

acemedic1 said:


> Well I would love to ff myself and do it all, but my work schedule would keep from being able to train everyday.  From what I have read and heard, FF is the one thing that needs to be done very consistently.  I have been visiting and talking with a couple differently trainers and the general consensus is that FF is the ground work for the future training, and that groundwork should be done correctly.



Turkey Trax and Folsom are right.  And yes, FF is the "foundation" for all other training.  However, many, many people have the misconception that "ear-pinch" *IS* FF.  It is not.  FF is a *PROCESS* which includes ear-pinch, collar fetch, walking fetch, fetch/no fetch, pile work, sit to pile, T work, water force, water T AND swim-by.  

That said, I CC to hear AND sit before starting ear-pinch.  Lardy says if you wait until completion of ear-pinch to CC than the dog has a better understanding of pressure.  Graham believes that by pairing the e-collar with both the stick and the choke chain the dog learns to associate them as all being the same, thus by complying with said command(s) the dog learns to "turn it off" (the pressure).  The reason I CC first is that I don't want a break in my FF process.  I want to move right on through from the ground to walking fetch using the e-collar.  Lets face it, FF aint fun...for you or the dog...so I want to move through it as seamlessly as possible.  I've probably (successfully)forced over 100 this way.  Only ever had 1 not make it.  It really comes down to personal preference though.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 7, 2012)

Joe Overby said:


> Turkey Trax and Folsom are right.  C



Of course we are. Youve yelled at us enough that it has sunk in.


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## Joe Overby (Aug 7, 2012)

Turkey Trax said:


> Of course we are. Youve yelled at us enough that it has sunk in.



Wise Grasshoppers........


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## acemedic1 (Aug 7, 2012)

Well I had a fairly good session today...i had a hard time getting him to just get away and play so I had to sit him a couple times...we worked up the  a 
pressure scale to 3 and he wouldn't leave heel from thee on out without some serious effort but we made it back out...he dang sure got the picture so I'm going to add distractions my next time out


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## Tag-a-long (Aug 7, 2012)

acemedic1 said:


> Well I had a fairly good session today...i had a hard time getting him to just get away and play so I had to sit him a couple times...we worked up the  a
> pressure scale to 3 and he wouldn't leave heel from thee on out without some serious effort but we made it back out...he dang sure got the picture so I'm going to add distractions my next time out



Ace, maybe I missed it ... it's been a long day and I didn't read all the way back.  Which command is it you're starting with??


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## Joe Overby (Aug 7, 2012)

acemedic1 said:


> Well I had a fairly good session today...i had a hard time getting him to just get away and play so I had to sit him a couple times...we worked up the  a
> pressure scale to 3 and he wouldn't leave heel from thee on out without some serious effort but we made it back out...he dang sure got the picture so I'm going to add distractions my next time out



Its ok if he won't freely go away and "play".  Walk him out, sit him and work on walking around him while he is sitting "remotely".  It is important that he is comfortable sitting RELIABLY away from you.  Start close and work up to a distance of about 20 yards.  When he is doing that well AND you can walk a full circle around him without his little rear end moving then work on calling him to you.  When he understands the "game", start applying pressure on the command "here".  Start with "here, nick, here".  Work up to "here with constant stim all the way to you".  ALWAYS do this with a check cord attached just in case he "bugs" the pressure.  When you are getting "good" results there, start restraining him while applying collar pressure all the way to you.  Evan Graham has a great diagram on how to restrain him while applying the collar pressure.  Remote sitting aside, the collar conditioning to here all the way through "force on here with restraint" USUALLY takes me about three to four 10 minute sessions.  Good luck!!


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## acemedic1 (Aug 8, 2012)

Just got done with round two....everything was going great and then scotch bolted after two dogs snatching the line out of my hands....joker completely ignored the pressure but was yelping like crazy at it as I turned it up...i had to go grab him up...we finished with alot of freebies....he bugged more  todaythan yesterday ??? Thanks for your help everybody


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## acemedic1 (Aug 8, 2012)

Btw the remote sitting hasn't  been the slightest problem until now lol


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## Joe Overby (Aug 8, 2012)

acemedic1 said:


> Just got done with round two....everything was going great and then scotch bolted after two dogs snatching the line out of my hands....joker completely ignored the pressure but was yelping like crazy at it as I turned it up...i had to go grab him up...we finished with alot of freebies....he bugged more  todaythan yesterday ??? Thanks for your help everybody



Freebies DO NOT teach what you are trying to accomplish.  Yes he bugged, until a few days ago, Dad was nice.  Now, 
Dad has lightening bolts in his hands!!  Listen, DO NOT let go of the check cord...in case he bolts.  When you get him conditioned to "here" with collar pressure then move on to restraint.  EG has a nice diagram of how to do this.  When this is done, it will be evident he understands what you are commanding.  Then you set him up to bolt...but not until he fully understands "here".  

BTW, the remote sit issue you speak of.....maybe spend a little more time on this.  This needs to be reliable.  It is funny how many people bring a dog to me saying "oh but his obedience is good", only to have me put a choke chain on the dog and have him flip out!!  Pressure can do weird things to dogs..unexpected things.. it is how YOU react that will ultimately teach or not teach the dog.  That said, when Kujo bolted after 2 other dogs, I DO NOT feel that turning up the pressure was the correct route.  Remember, puppy still doesn't understand.  You are a teacher first and foremost.  Teach, teach, teach...proof...and then correct for disobedience.  I really hope this helps.


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## ngaduck (Aug 8, 2012)

Joe Overby said:


> Freebies DO NOT teach what you are trying to accomplish.  Yes he bugged, until a few days ago, Dad was nice.  Now,
> Dad has lightening bolts in his hands!!  Listen, DO NOT let go of the check cord...in case he bolts.  When you get him conditioned to "here" with collar pressure then move on to restraint.  EG has a nice diagram of how to do this.  When this is done, it will be evident he understands what you are commanding.  Then you set him up to bolt...but not until he fully understands "here".
> 
> BTW, the remote sit issue you speak of.....maybe spend a little more time on this.  This needs to be reliable.  It is funny how many people bring a dog to me saying "oh but his obedience is good", only to have me put a choke chain on the dog and have him flip out!!  Pressure can do weird things to dogs..unexpected things.. it is how YOU react that will ultimately teach or not teach the dog.  That said, when Kujo bolted after 2 other dogs, I DO NOT feel that turning up the pressure was the correct route.  Remember, puppy still doesn't understand.  You are a teacher first and foremost.  Teach, teach, teach...proof...and then correct for disobedience.  I really hope this helps.



I've seen a GRHRCH MH eat cat crap out of a litter box.


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## Joe Overby (Aug 8, 2012)

ngaduck said:


> I've seen a GRHRCH MH eat cat crap out of a litter box.



SAY IT AINT SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Those darn HRC dogs........it must've been a chocolate dog......


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## macondaly (Aug 9, 2012)

First, I am no expert trainer.  

Second, ALL of you are giving the OP some accurate advise.

Third, there is something to be learned from everyone's advise, even if it doesn't directly address the OP's question.

The two programs that are mentioned in this thread are Total Retriever Training by Mike Lardy and Smartworks by Evan Graham.  By both their own admission in training materials I have read Graham and Lardy both spent a large amount of time training with and studying under Rex Carr that Killer Elite mentioned.  If you look at the majority of training materials on the market today (Smartworks, TRT, Fowldogs, Aycock/Farmer) Rex Carr had a profound effect on the methods a huge number of trainers use to train retrievers.  Many programs are based on the same principles, the exact order is tailored to the individuals experiences and successes.  All of these programs stress understanding the process of an element of the program and taking your time. 

To steal a thought from another trainer, your dog is a ten year plus investment, why get in a hurry and rush through training, whether its you or your dog are the one that's confused.

If I have learned one thing training mainly alone its that you can't learn everything you need to train a fully trained retriever from training materials.  Training with people that are accomplished trainers will put you way ahead of the game much faster than watching it on a video. 

One final thing, Ace, if you are planning on sending your dog to a pro to be force fetched, why not find out exactly what your pro want you to do and not to do to prepare you pup for his stay.


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## ryano (Aug 9, 2012)

macondaly said:


> why not find out exactly what your pro want you to do and not to do to prepare you pup for his stay.



Sounds like sound advice to me........a friend of mine, that has my pup told me for a few months what to do and not do before bringing her to him.....she is in FF right now and sounds like she is doing pretty good from the reports I get 

she wasnt even CC to here when I took her to him.......two short sessions and she suddenly "got it".

He might just make a fine retriever out of that $100.00 "backyard breeder" pup with no titles in her pedigree afterall.


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## T Tolbert (Aug 9, 2012)

It's Smartwork people no "s". 
Just wanted to inform eveyone.


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## Joe Overby (Aug 9, 2012)

macondaly said:


> One final thing, Ace, if you are planning on sending your dog to a pro to be force fetched, why not find out exactly what your pro want you to do and not to do to prepare you pup for his stay.



This might be the best piece of advice yet.


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## acemedic1 (Aug 10, 2012)

Joe Overby said:


> Freebies DO NOT teach what you are trying to accomplish.  Yes he bugged, until a few days ago, Dad was nice.  Now,
> Dad has lightening bolts in his hands!!  Listen, DO NOT let go of the check cord...in case he bolts.  When you get him conditioned to "here" with collar pressure then move on to restraint.  EG has a nice diagram of how to do this.  When this is done, it will be evident he understands what you are commanding.  Then you set him up to bolt...but not until he fully understands "here".
> 
> BTW, the remote sit issue you speak of.....maybe spend a little more time on this.  This needs to be reliable.  It is funny how many people bring a dog to me saying "oh but his obedience is good", only to have me put a choke chain on the dog and have him flip out!!  Pressure can do weird things to dogs..unexpected things.. it is how YOU react that will ultimately teach or not teach the dog.  That said, when Kujo bolted after 2 other dogs, I DO NOT feel that turning up the pressure was the correct route.  Remember, puppy still doesn't understand.  You are a teacher first and foremost.  Teach, teach, teach...proof...and then correct for disobedience.  I really hope this helps.



Thanks for this advice!  Yesterday was the third day out and he didnt bug or try to hug my left leg even once.  I started out just walking him around (not giving him any commands) and blowing the sit whistle with a sit command every ten or fifteen yards, as I kept walking.  He did fine with no hesitation so I went into the cc to here.  I think that sit session really helped because it was so fresh on his mind.  I will move on to restraint tomorrow morning when I get off of work and see how that goes.


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## acemedic1 (Aug 16, 2012)

Well today was the first day off lead in a very unfamiliar place for scotch and I let him romp and play and then out of nowhere I gave him a here and he stopped in his tracks and came right to heel...this collar stuff is amazing!!! I am a believer now for sure..question is I plan to send to ff end of this month...is that too soon or should I give him time to adjust to collar pressure


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 16, 2012)

acemedic1 said:


> Well today was the first day off lead in a very unfamiliar place for scotch and I let him romp and play and then out of nowhere I gave him a here and he stopped in his tracks and came right to heel...this collar stuff is amazing!!! I am a believer now for sure..question is I plan to send to ff end of this month...is that too soon or should I give him time to adjust to collar pressure



nothing to do with it. if his big boy teeth are in and ob is decent, send him on. (MOST LIKELY) the pro is going to check and make sure OB is where he wants him anyway.


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## acemedic1 (Aug 16, 2012)

Turkey Trax said:


> nothing to do with it. if his big boy teeth are in and ob is decent, send him on. (MOST LIKELY) the pro is going to check and make sure OB is where he wants him anyway.



That's what I wanted to hear...I steadied scotch way too early and killed his drive for land bumpers, everything else was fine, so I have been real careful about just giving hup pups and making it real fun,I just don't want  any translation of that 
problem when it comes to pile work


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## Joe Overby (Aug 17, 2012)

When FF is done it shouldnt be an issue.  What many don't understand is while we would love for our dogs to just keep this general upbeat attitude on everything, along the way they will and do start to resent some things.  Some are worse than others, I might add.  But, when your pup completes FTP, if the Pro has done it correctly, the dog will understand "the complete retrieve" on land...and should do it when commanded with absolute compliance EVERYTIME.  I know you are afraid you killed his drive...I am going to be the bad guy for a minute...if FF doesn't motivate him to do what he's told..when he's told..how he's told, then you might find yourself puppy shopping.  Lets all hope this is not the case and that Scotch finds religion and learns to love his job.  Remember, not all Labs WANT to retrieve.  Not all Labs WANT to hunt.  It is a lot more fun to have one that wants to rather than is forced to.  As the old saying goes, you can sure take it out of em but you can't put it in em.  Im glad Scotch and You have figured out the CC stuff.  Good luck!!


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## puddlehunter (Aug 17, 2012)

acemedic1 said:


> Well today was the first day off lead in a very unfamiliar place for scotch and I let him romp and play and then out of nowhere I gave him a here and he stopped in his tracks and came right to heel...this collar stuff is amazing!!! I am a believer now for sure..question is I plan to send to ff end of this month...is that too soon or should I give him time to adjust to collar pressure



I was curious what kind of back up plan you had set up when you put him off lead if he decided to not follow your command?  Not critiquing at all interested in your method


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## acemedic1 (Aug 18, 2012)

puddlehunter said:


> I was curious what kind of back up plan you had set up when you put him off lead if he decided to not follow your command?  Not critiquing at all interested in your method



I was under the impression that the reason for cc was to be able to reinforce commands already taught.  Do I not need to let him off lead?


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## fatboy84 (Aug 18, 2012)

acemedic1 said:


> I was under the impression that the reason for cc was to be able to reinforce commands already taught.  Do I not need to let him off lead?



You are correct.  You use the collar to reinforce the command after CC.


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## acemedic1 (Aug 18, 2012)

puddlehunter said:


> I was curious what kind of back up plan you had set up when you put him off lead if he decided to not follow your command?  Not critiquing at all interested in your method



What's this about then


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