# Osteen Arms Thousands with Hope, Not Doctrine



## Double Barrel BB (Sep 10, 2008)

*Osteen Arms Thousands with Hope, Not Doctrine*


*Pastor of one of the largest churches in the country and whose messages are heard by millions around the world, Osteen preached his signature uplifting message at Verizon Center during his "A Night of Hope" worship event.*
Sun, Sep. 07, 2008 Posted: 09:20 AM EDT

WASHINGTON – "God has the power to meet your needs," Joel Osteen told some 19,000 people Friday night. “ He not only has the power, He has the desire to meet your needs. He wants you to live this abundant life.” 

Pastor of one of the largest churches in the country whose messages are heard by millions around the world, Osteen preached his signature uplifting message at the Verizon Center during his "A Night of Hope" worship event. 

His visit comes less than two months before the nation chooses its next president, but the popular Lakewood Church pastor didn't come to the nation's capital to talk politics, let alone rally Christians behind a candidate. 

"I try not to weigh in a lot on [politics]," Osteen told The Christian Post. The only political rallying he does is to make sure people vote and do their part. "I always encourage our congregation to search their own heart and vote what they feel God wants them to. I think if we do our part, God will put the right person in office." 
Still undecided on his personal pick for the next White House leader, Osteen noted, "There's good and great things in both candidates (Barack Obama and John McCain). They're both great leaders." 

He also commended Pastor Rick Warren of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., for hosting the Democratic and Republican presidential candidates at his church for a civil forum last month. 
"It gave good insight into who they are," Osteen commented. "Nobody more qualified to do [the forum] than Rick Warren, so I think it was great." 

Osteen, whose podcast messages consistently rank in the top 10 on iTunes, keeps politics out of his church. He doesn't preach on political issues; he also doesn't teach theological doctrine or try to explain every detail in the Bible. 

That's not his calling, he says. And that has drawn critics. 

"Just the fact that we're presenting hope, that we present the Gospel as good news, as God being good, some people think that ..." Osteen said as he paused to try to identify what he feels is most misunderstood about him. "I don't know if it's misunderstood. That's what I feel like my calling is." 

"I'm just one part of what God wants us to do on the earth so I really feel that I'm running my race and maybe people don't necessarily see that," he continued. 

Some pastors and theologians have criticized Osteen's failure to talk about sin, suffering and the message of the cross. 
But the Lakewood megachurch pastor stresses, "I'm called to plant a seed of hope in people's hearts," as he wrote in his latest book, _Become a Better You_. 

If congregants want to dig deeper into Scripture and learn core theological doctrines, Osteen says Lakewood Church offers classes during the week. 

"I think, again, my gift is to help people to live out the Christian life because you can have a lot of knowledge but if you don't know how to forgive when people hurt you, have a good attitude, expect good things ... I feel like that's my main gifting," he told The Christian Post. "But I do believe we need to know what Jesus did when he died, what it all meant, and we have people that teach that." 
Doing what he does best, Osteen reached out to thousands Friday, arming them with hope and positive thoughts. 

"Sometimes in my own life when I'm having difficulties I like to just come back to the fact and just say to myself 'God, You created the whole universe ... God, I believe you can give me $4 for a gallon of gas, You can help me pay rent, heal my back.' See what I mean? I'm talking about keeping it all in perspective," he said to a roaring applause. 

"I can't say that I understand it all but I can always come back to the fact that God is good." 

Visiting 18 cities this year, Osteen hits Dallas, Texas, in October for "A Night of Hope."
​Lillian Kwon
Christian Post Reporter


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## PWalls (Sep 10, 2008)

Let the flaming begin, but, a pastor should be 100% all about arming his flock with doctrine and Bible teachings so they in turn can go out and fulfill the Great Commission. That should be a Pastor's main goal. Making everyone in the pews "feel better" doesn't do anything for them.

He mentioned they had classes during the week for doctrinal training. What percentage of the Sunday morning crowd actually goes through those classes? What percentage are getting doctrine and what percentage are just going to his church on Sunday morning to "feel better"?


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## rjcruiser (Sep 12, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Let the flaming begin, but, a pastor should be 100% all about arming his flock with doctrine and Bible teachings so they in turn can go out and fulfill the Great Commission. That should be a Pastor's main goal. Making everyone in the pews "feel better" doesn't do anything for them.
> 
> He mentioned they had classes during the week for doctrinal training. What percentage of the Sunday morning crowd actually goes through those classes? What percentage are getting doctrine and what percentage are just going to his church on Sunday morning to "feel better"?



Amen to that.  No flaming here.

There are so many quotes in the article from Osteen that show his ignorance of what the Bible truly says about hope.  I would say the greatest misquoted scripture verse in the Bible (besides, judge not lest you be judged) is "All things work together for good" because people leave off the ending...."for those who Love God and are called according to His purpose."

Again, it shows the lack of commitment in our society...everything wants something for free without doing any of the work.


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## leftehud (Sep 12, 2008)

> God, I believe you can give me $4 for a gallon of gas, You can help me pay rent


For some reason I doubt he even pumps his gas much less has a problem paying for it. Rent? are you serious? hey buy my books so I can own stuff you can only dream about.


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## preacher (Sep 17, 2008)

I'm in Ezekiel in my daily reading right now, and guys like Osteen are doing the same thing that false prophets were doing in Ezekiel's day.  Ezekiel was telling people the truth while a bunch of, perhaps well-intentioned preachers, were telling the people how great everything was going to be.  Guess who had the big crowds?  Not Ezekiel.  The Bible tells us that folks will heap to themselves teachers and preachers like these in the last days.  It should come as no surprise.  The man couldn't even give a straight forward answer about salvation, Heaven, and Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- in front of millions of people on Larry King.  Many, not all, of his followers are going to feel good all the way to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.


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## preacher (Sep 17, 2008)

By the way, I wasn't using profanity.  Just naming a place that starts with the letter H.


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## Randy (Sep 17, 2008)

He is just telling people what they want to hear.  God says it is easier for a camel to get throuh the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to Heaven.  Yet Osteen and several others all preach on how God wants you to prosper and have everything you want.  Of course they are also quick to tell you that it comes back to you the more you give to them.

IMO a Pastor should preach all parts of the Bible not just the up-lifting, good parts.  Of course they get more money when they preach what the congregation wants to hear and that is "how does it benefit me?"


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## Huntinfool (Sep 17, 2008)

Wow!  What a bunch of cynics we have here.


Or as my gal Palin calls you....haters.  

I don't know the guy.  Have never listened to him.  But what he says in the article is that he preaches bilbical messages and encourages people to hope.  

If they want to find out more about Christ, their church provides that.  Is there a difference between teaching Christ on Sunday morning and teaching him on Wednesday?  Is there?  Really?

If ten thousand people who otherwise wouldn't have gond to church attend on Sunday and all they get is that Christ loves them, I count that as a positive influence in the right direction.  Hopefully they will continue and when they eventually get to the place where they want more they will attend those classes to the the deeper message of the gospel.

What is so special about Sunday morning?

Let the flaming arrows fly boys!


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## HighCotton (Sep 17, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Wow!  What a bunch of cynics we have here.
> 
> 
> Or as my gal Palin calls you....haters.
> ...




If Osteen wants to preach that the 10,000 need to be believers and have Christ at the center of their lives and live for him and that He will meet their needs (not their desires but their needs), then I'm all for Osteen.

But that's not what he's preaching.  The Bible teaches that faith and hope come from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.


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## Randy (Sep 17, 2008)

Well if you did ever listen to him, and I do, you would only hear sermons on hope and how God wants you to be rich.  I listen to him to get that message and then I have to listen to others to get the rest of the messages from the Bible.

I did not say he was not good but he has one message.


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## Banjo (Sep 17, 2008)

Osteen is a hireling.  He is not even sure Jesus is the only way to heaven.  He nauseates me because he is getting rich off of ignorant people's money, all in the name of God...



> What is so special about Sunday morning?



I know alot of you aren't big on the OT in here, but there is that fourth commandment:

"Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy."  I am guessing that if the other six are still binding, this one is too.


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## PWalls (Sep 17, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Wow!  What a bunch of cynics we have here.
> 
> 
> Or as my gal Palin calls you....haters.
> ...



Why don't you listen to some of his "sermons". Some of us on here have. Some of us have founded our opinions on experience. I have a book or two of his. I have a couple of CD's. My wife really liked them until she started noticing there was no substance or meat to any of it. 

Cynics/Haters? Not really. Just informed and experienced.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 17, 2008)

Banjo said:


> "Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy."  I am guessing that if the other six are still binding, this one is too.



Where in the world do you get "Preach the gospel on Sunday morning" from that?  Banjo, the Gospel message didn't even exist when that was written.

I'm watching one of their services now.  They are worshiping God. 

I'll let y'all know if I change my mind after the message.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 17, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Cynics/Haters? Not really. Just informed and experienced.



There is a lot of hate being spewed sir.  Guise it as "experienced" if you want.  The man is praying and the the people are praising.  I've not seen anything yet that would brand him or his church un-biblical.

Perhaps he does have only one message.  Again, I ask why Sunday is more important than Wednesday as far as "what" is preached.  

If that one message plants a seed that pushes someone toward learning more about Christ, what is the issue? 

His wife is teaching now though...so I can see why some of you have an issue.  That whole "no women in the pulpit" thing.


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## HighCotton (Sep 17, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> There is a lot of hate being spewed sir.  Guise it as "experienced" if you want.  The man is praying and the the people are praising.  I've not seen anything yet that would brand him or his church un-biblical.
> 
> Perhaps he does have only one message.  Again, I ask why Sunday is more important than Wednesday as far as "what" is preached.
> 
> ...



We should desire to know Christ because we are sinners and need Him for our salavation.

But, Osteen preaches that one should desire to know Christ because He wants you to "be happy and prosperous".  

I simply submit to you that the wrong seed is being planted.


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## Banjo (Sep 17, 2008)

> Where in the world do you get "Preach the gospel on Sunday morning" from that? Banjo, the Gospel message didn't even exist when that was written.



We do have apostolic example.  They gathered on the first day of the week for corporate worship.  That works for me.

See.... God's Law requires keeping the Sabbath holy.  Then we have apostolic example showing us how that is done.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 17, 2008)

HighCotton said:


> I simply submit to you that the wrong seed is being planted.



Maybe....maybe not.  The message is true.  Is it just PART of the message?  Perhaps.

Are you willing to submit that there are not those who received Christ because of this church who otherwise would have reject the church and Christ?

I am not.

I know what you guys are saying.  He's only preaching prosperity.  I just think the vilifiaction of the man is a bit much.  Yes, he's making these people feel good.  No, he's not preaching a salvation message.  But is it bad that he leaves that message for after they've decided they want to know more about Christ?  I'm not sure it is.  

Either way, if they find salvation...does it matter whether it happens on Sunday or Wednesday?


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## Huntinfool (Sep 17, 2008)

Banjo said:


> We do have apostolic example.  They gathered on the first day of the week for corporate worship.  That works for me.



They sure did gather on the first day for corporate worship....just like these folks are doing at Lakewood Church.

They are worshiping corporately.  Banjo, I get you.  I'm pretty much with you.  I wish he would preach a little differently.  But I am not the one who is able to discern his motivation.


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## PWalls (Sep 17, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> There is a lot of hate being spewed sir.  Guise it as "experienced" if you want.  The man is praying and the the people are praising.  I've not seen anything yet that would brand him or his church un-biblical.



Hate? Where do you see "hate"?

No one here says they hate Joel Osteen. All I have seen is that they disagree with how he preaches and what he is preaching (which is a partial gospel). He is bringing in the masses with a "feel-good" message. Where does he preach that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. Where does he preach that God is a jealous God. He preaches a partial doctrine. That will leave his flock sucking on milk still and not working their way to meat.


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## PWalls (Sep 17, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> I know what you guys are saying.  He's only preaching prosperity.  I just think the vilifiaction of the man is a bit much.  Yes, he's making these people feel good.  No, he's not preaching a salvation message.  But is it bad that he leaves that message for after they've decided they want to know more about Christ?  I'm not sure it is. ?



When is he preaching the rest of the message? He is not. That is the problem. How many believers in his church fold at the first simple hard test because all they ever heard from their pastor is that everything is peachy all the time?

His "method" is what is dangerous.

I have nothing against him personally. Just don't like his method.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 17, 2008)

PWalls said:


> When is he preaching the rest of the message? He is not. That is the problem. How many believers in his church fold at the first simple hard test because all they ever heard from their pastor is that everything is peachy all the time?
> 
> His "method" is what is dangerous.
> 
> I have nothing against him personally. Just don't like his method.



When is he preaching the rest?  In those classes he mentions apparently.  That's why I keep asking why Sunday is the only day you can preach the Gospel.

I'm not sure about the method either.  But if it's effective for bringing people to Christ....

Where is the hate?  "Osteen is a hireling", "He nauseates me", he's a "false prophet", he's "ignorant"....If you guys said that about me, I'd think you hated me (well you probably actually DO in pm's )


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## Randy (Sep 17, 2008)

Banjo said:


> "Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy."  I am guessing that if the other six are still binding, this one is too.



Only thing is the Sabbath is Saturday.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 17, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Yes, he's making these people feel good.  No, he's not preaching a salvation message.  But is it bad that he leaves that message for after they've decided they want to know more about Christ?  I'm not sure it is.
> 
> Either way, if they find salvation...does it matter whether it happens on Sunday or Wednesday?



The biggest problem with his preaching is that he passes it off as the gospel message.  He starts off with a mantra about how important the Bible is and how we are to live by it, but then never or almost never refers to it again.

He gives only one piece of the puzzle, but portrays it as the whole picture.

Is that the best thing?  

Tell me this, is it better to have 10,000 believing in a a half truth gospel that might bring them to the full understanding and true Christianity or 100 believing in the full gospel that they accept with no doubts...good and bad?


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## preacher (Sep 17, 2008)

I certainly don't hate him or anyone else.  I even alluded to my opinion that he probably has good intentions.  The problem is this.  A preacher can be out of balance in EITHER direction.  A man who overwhelmingly preaches the positives without the negatives isn't being completely honest, and he's not preaching the way Jesus and the apostles did.  It's like a doctor who goes on and on about the benefits of the medication he's prescribing, but he never tells you about the disease.  He's not being honest.  Worse yet, a doctor who keeps telling you that everything is going to be allright, but he never even tells you that something's wrong with you.  That's pretty messed up, but I definitely don't hate the guy.  I'm sure he's very likable.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 17, 2008)

Ah!!! Now finally somebody makes a point!  RJ, I knew I could count on you.  THAT, I think is where the issue lies.  If properity is being preached as the "gospel message" without the inclusion of sin, the cross, etc., then we have an issue.

BUT, let's just suppose that the FULL message is being brought in those classes.  We don't know.  Is it ok, as radio personalities are fond of, to "tease" them with the pleasant stuff in order to get them to dig deeper?  It's a question.  I'm not making a statement here.

I knew you guys would start thinking about your arguments eventually!



BTW...Randy, the thing about the sabbath was freaking hilarious!


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## Huntinfool (Sep 17, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Tell me this, is it better to have 10,000 believing in a a half truth gospel that might bring them to the full understanding and true Christianity or 100 believing in the full gospel that they accept with no doubts...good and bad?



Depends on whether 200 out of that 10K accept the full.  Actually, I'd prefer to have your 100 AND his 200.  

I don't know man.  I understand what you're saying.  I don't want them ONLY believing half of the message either.  I do know, however, that there are thousands of people who will go to this church that will never consider another and if they eventually hear the full message and find salvation...is that bad?


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## rjcruiser (Sep 17, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> I do know, however, that there are thousands of people who will go to this church that will never consider another and if they eventually hear the full message and find salvation...is that bad?



The problem is that they believe it is the full message.

About half-truths and deceiving messages, I'll quote Luke 17:1-2

1.  He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! 

 2  "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 17, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> BUT, let's just suppose that the FULL message is being brought in those classes.  We don't know.  Is it ok, as radio personalities are fond of, to "tease" them with the pleasant stuff in order to get them to dig deeper?



The problem is that it isn't.  I can say that with 100% assurance based on listening to a handful of his messages and watching him conduct interviews on TV.

If you had that type of opportunity to be on national television...able to tell the World the gospel of Jesus...Repent and be saved, or continue living in sin and live eternity in h ell, wouldn't that be an awesome opportunity?  

Well, he had it and he whiffed it big time.  How can you say you believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible, yet whiff on a simple question like that?

Kinda goes to the whole evolution thread as well.  How can you believe the back part of the Bible without believing the front?  

How can you believe in Heaven, but not in H ell?  

He only preaches one side of the coin.  That is what seeker sensitive churches do.  They pander to the masses...they never flip the coin and the people who listen sunday after sunday are deceived, not knowing that there is two sides to the coin.

Okay.....that was maybe a bit harsh and a broad stroke with a broad brush, but I'm leaving it as is so if you don't like it flame away


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## Banjo (Sep 17, 2008)

> Only thing is the Sabbath is Saturday.



You should have read further....The apostolic example is now Sunday.. The first day of the week.

It is the Christian Sabbath. 

Here's Joel at his finest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9-PebV634&feature=related


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## Huntinfool (Sep 17, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Okay.....that was maybe a bit harsh and a broad stroke with a broad brush, but I'm leaving it as is so if you don't like it flame away



Flame Flame brother....Flame Flame.  Come on over to my "seeker sensitive" church this Sunday.  I'd love to prove you wrong!


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## PWalls (Sep 17, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> BUT, let's just suppose that the FULL message is being brought in those classes.  We don't know.  Is it ok, as radio personalities are fond of, to "tease" them with the pleasant stuff in order to get them to dig deeper?  It's a question.  I'm not making a statement here.



But why the classes then? How many people are going to those "classes" he mentions. I think I asked that one time. How many go to hear his popular message and then go no further? Why go to church to hear a pastor tickle your ears and then have to go to a class later to get the meat? That is not effective. I think anyone can see that.

While they are in the seat, hit them with the whole Gospel. Not just the parts that make them feel good.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 17, 2008)

PWalls said:


> That is not effective. I think anyone can see that.



Apparently it is man.....thousands show up to hear it.  If one out of ten then goes to the classes, we're talking thousands that hear the full gospel message and hopefully receive it.  

You're mixing your preference for how things are done with what is or is not effective.

I think rj pointed out that he knows the classes don't do that.  If that's the case, then, yeh, we have a big issue.


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## Randy (Sep 17, 2008)

Have you read his book?  I have, it is the same thing he preaches.  I would bet his classes teach the same thing.  Again nothing wrong wiht it but there is much more to the Bible and being a christian.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 17, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Apparently it is man.....thousands show up to hear it.  If one out of ten then goes to the classes, we're talking thousands that hear the full gospel message and hopefully receive it.
> 
> You're mixing your preference for how things are done with what is or is not effective.
> 
> I think rj pointed out that he knows the classes don't do that.  If that's the case, then, yeh, we have a big issue.



But it isn't a preference issue.  Its the fact that only 1 in 10 do go to the classes.  Even if they do dive deep into the word of God.  That means 9 out of 10 are being deceived. So our message and goal should be to save 1 out of 10 and deceive 9 others while doing it?  Sounds like taking 1 step forward and 9 backwards.


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## Randy (Sep 17, 2008)

He even admits his style is to stay away from other parts of the Bible.

Osteen says that he chooses to focus on the goodness of God rather than sin.[15] In answer to questions raised over why he does not include many Bible verses in his books, he says that he sees himself as more of a life coach. Osteen explains that he tries to teach Biblical principles in a simple way, emphasizing the power of love and a positive attitude. [16]

Again not a bad message just not a complete message.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 17, 2008)

If those 9 would otherwise have sat at home on their couch that Sunday....yeh, that's cool with me.

Think of it as 10 that wanted nothing to do with Christ.  If 1 accepts him, is that not better than 10 staying in their current state?

I'm pretty much just playing devil's advocate with you guys here.  I just want us to think before we condemn.


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## PWalls (Sep 17, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Apparently it is man.....thousands show up to hear it.  If one out of ten then goes to the classes, we're talking thousands that hear the full gospel message and hopefully receive it.



No, you are incorrect.

If one out of ten goes to that class, then 9 are hearing a partial gospel that does more harm than good and only 1 is hearing a full gospel message. And how effective is that "class" at getting that full message out? That is another aspect that is not being considered.

How can you call that "effective"? How is that right? My personal preference has nothing to do with it.


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## PWalls (Sep 17, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm pretty much just playing devil's advocate with you guys here.  I just want us to think before we condemn.



And, you are assuming that we haven't "thought" about it.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 17, 2008)

PWalls said:


> No, you are incorrect.



So says PWalls.  



PWalls said:


> How can you call that "effective"? How is that right?



If one is saved that otherwise wouldn't have been, do you consider that a failure?  

We had ten unsaved....now we have nine.  Sounds like we're moving in the right direction to me.  



and yes, I am assuming that many of you haven't thought about it.  The arguments have evolved throughout the day.  That indicates to me that you are thinking. 

As Christians, we are quick to condemn "different" as "sinful".  I just want to make sure we know why we think what we think.


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## PWalls (Sep 17, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> If one is saved that otherwise wouldn't have been, do you consider that a failure?
> 
> We had ten unsaved....now we have nine.  Sounds like we're moving in the right direction to me.
> 
> ...



The arguments haven't evolved. People on here still do not see it as good just like when it was posted. This is not new stuff. Type in Osteen under the search function.

On the 1 out of 10, do some more thinking. How does the hurt and false hope and half-gospel truths preaching to those 9 justify the 1? Did Jesus do that? Did the apostles do that? No they did not. They preached the FULL GOSPEL at all times to everyone they ran across. Why does this man feel he needs to change that? Does his "numbers" justify that?

No, they do not.


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## ryano (Sep 17, 2008)

he is way too "feel good" for me.

I dont need a Preacher telling me how good I am doing. I might just start to believe it. 

Osteen is a wonderful public speaker but thats about as far as I can go with it.


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## SBG (Sep 17, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Wow!  What a bunch of cynics we have here.
> 
> 
> Or as my gal Palin calls you....haters.
> ...



Who is the hater...that appears to be you. I can't understand your disdain for God's Word.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 17, 2008)

Wow SBG!...thanks for chiming in.  

I've not said anything hateful.  No one said anything about having disdain for God's word.

More interesting and useful posting from my good buddy SBG.  Glad you could join the conversation.  You certainly never disappoint.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 17, 2008)

PWalls said:


> The arguments haven't evolved.




Yes...they have.  They've gotten a lot more thoughtful and convincing with well thought out responses.  Much better than the "I just don't like the guy" responses we saw earlier.  

We're actually seeing some well thought out responses now.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 17, 2008)

Huntinfool,
I understand what you are doing.  I do it too on this forum.  I ask questions that I know the answer to to see how someone different will respond.  I don't condemn you for it.  Can't, I'm being two-faced if I do.

However, I don't think our arguements have changed...just given more explanation behind them thus validating them in yours and others minds.

Now, back to this 9 out of 10 thing.  1 saved out of 10 is awesome.  Praise God for that 1 lost sheep.  However, what is damaging is the other 9.  The other 9 think that they are found, even though they are lost.  Okay, maybe all 9 don't, but atleast 8 out of the 9 do.  So they go around thinking they are rescued and don't know their true heart condition.

People may call it being judgemental, but when a person comes to my church, they are loved and welcomed.  But they are also made aware of their eternal situation.  Sure, hearing from the pulpit that there are unsaved people in the congregation can upset some people, but the people it upsets are the people that are in church for the social club rather than to grow in God's Word.

So I ask you again, better to save 1 and deceive 9 others?  or save none, but make all 10 aware of their eternal destiny?


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## PWalls (Sep 17, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Huntinfool,
> I understand what you are doing.  I do it too on this forum.  I ask questions that I know the answer to to see how someone different will respond.  I don't condemn you for it.  Can't, I'm being two-faced if I do.
> 
> However, I don't think our arguements have changed...just given more explanation behind them thus validating them in yours and others minds.
> ...



 X2!


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## leftehud (Sep 18, 2008)

> Osteen says that he chooses to focus on the goodness of God rather than sin.[


penal substitutionary atonement if that's not preached it's not the gospel. We lose that we lose Jesus. Is God good? yes he is, but we must first see we suck!


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## THREEJAYS (Sep 18, 2008)

I think encourageing feel good messages have there place.Now with that said there are also two sides to the coin and folks have to know both.


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## SBG (Sep 18, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Wow SBG!...thanks for chiming in.
> 
> I've not said anything hateful.  No one said anything about having disdain for God's word.
> 
> More interesting and useful posting from my good buddy SBG.  Glad you could join the conversation.  You certainly never disappoint.



Not hateful? Your posts constantly drip with sarcasm and contempt for anyone that is not liberal like yourself. And as typical with one that is strong in what they believe and weak in what God's Word says, your arguments are with out foundation.


----------



## SBG (Sep 18, 2008)

mrmom said:


> . Is God good? yes he is, but we must first see we suck!



Very good.

What a concept. 

My prayer, as always, is that God will remove the scales from folk's eyes.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 18, 2008)

SBG said:


> Not hateful? Your posts constantly drip with sarcasm and contempt for anyone that is not liberal like yourself. And as typical with one that is strong in what they believe and weak in what God's Word says, your arguments are with out foundation.



Thanks for you input buddy.  Love you too.




I do think it's ironic that you, of all people, accuse me of contempt.  But I still love ya man.  You just get riled up too easy.  Calm down.  We're all grown-ups here.  We can disagree and not call each other names.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 18, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> So I ask you again, better to save 1 and deceive 9 others?  or save none, but make all 10 aware of their eternal destiny?



Totally agree.  I'd rather have all 10 aware of their eternal destiny.

I guess I'm assuming, though, that none of the 10 would have anything to do with God except that they like what Osteen has to say.

Of course I'd rather he preach a stronger Gospel message to ALL of them.  But he won't, clearly....and he's got an audience of millions.  I guess I'm just saying I'm glad for the ones who DO end up getting the whole message.  But still wish the other 9 knew the whole story.


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## PWalls (Sep 18, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Of course I'd rather he preach a stronger Gospel message to ALL of them.  But he won't, clearly....and he's got an audience of millions.



Not a "Stronger" Gospel. He needs to preach the COMPLETE gospel. He is just tickling ears.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 18, 2008)

Ok man.  I agree.  You're splitting hairs.


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## knifemaker (Sep 18, 2008)

I've listened to him several times, he does have a positive feel good message. But as for judging his motives, I'll leave that to God.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 18, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Totally agree.  I'd rather have all 10 aware of their eternal destiny.
> 
> I guess I'm assuming, though, that none of the 10 would have anything to do with God except that they like what Osteen has to say.
> 
> Of course I'd rather he preach a stronger Gospel message to ALL of them.  But he won't, clearly....and he's got an audience of millions.  I guess I'm just saying I'm glad for the ones who DO end up getting the whole message.  But still wish the other 9 knew the whole story.



Sounds like we got you starting to change your mind on the whole "Seeker Sensitive" movement after all


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## Huntinfool (Sep 18, 2008)

Nah....my arguments are just evolving! 







and BTW....Seeker Sensitive is just too broad a brush for all these churches.  There are MANY different models.  This guy's church doesn't look anything like the way we do church and I would consider us "seeker sensitive".  Too many assumptions being made IMO.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 18, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> and BTW....Seeker Sensitive is just too broad a brush for all these churches.  There are MANY different models.  This guy's church doesn't look anything like the way we do church and I would consider us "seeker sensitive".  Too many assumptions being made IMO.



Yes...it is a broad brush.  And this is not an attack on your church or your pastor, just merely a question (and obviously, since you're church practices Church discipline, it is not the typical seeker sensitive church).  When was the last time your pastor's message revolved on man's sinful condition?


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## Huntinfool (Sep 18, 2008)

It was most definitely central to the message just the past Sunday.  We're going through a series on living right side up in an upside down world, referring to the verse where the disciples are accused of "turning the world upside down".  Salvation and being set apart for God were central to the message.

Our pastor was the pastor of the "First Baptist Church" of our town for over 20 years.  That's my point.  Many of these churches are founded and led by folks who grew up and led "traditional" churches but saw what they perceived as unmet needs in the community. They saw the failure of the traditional model to have an impact in their particular communities, so they changed the model.

The Gospel is still central, the model of how we do church is different.


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## SBG (Sep 18, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Thanks for you input buddy.  Love you too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not riled in the least. Just pointing out the obvious.


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## gtparts (Sep 18, 2008)

> Ephesians 4
> 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
> 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
> 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
> ...



Joel readily admits that he has a calling to preach the "Good News".  But he apparently subdivides the "Good News" into that which focuses on the uplifting and that which focuses on the convicting and repenting. I should think all of us find it more pleasant to relate the "good" news rather than the "bad" news. Joel has drawn his line, leaving the task of preaching conviction and repentance to someone else. He may be called to evangelism, but with that calling comes a responsibility up to which he is not willing to live.
There can be little doubt that he is doing a grave disservice to some.
For me, half the Gospel (or a partial Gospel) is no Gospel .

The Gospel is a recipe for how man can live in fellowship with God for eternity. 

Suppose for a moment you desired to bake a cake. You picked up a cookbook, decided on a red velvet cake, and turned to page 22 and read this and only this.



> "Remove from the oven. Let cool. Apply icing, cut, and serve. Enjoy!"



I'm sure by now there are cake crumbs on your lips.  No???

What's the problem? Is there something missing?

You call the publisher and find that it is not a misprint.

At this point I think we would conclude that the recipe as presented is pretty worthless.

Truth be told, baking a cake requires a list of all the ingredients and measurements, and all the instructions in order. If they are complete and accurate AND you follow them, you'll be eating cake.

"Sin and repentance" classes offered later on in the week probably means some are not getting "cake".


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## PWalls (Sep 18, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Ok man.  I agree.  You're splitting hairs.



So Huntinfool says.

I think there is a huge difference.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 18, 2008)

Really just not even worth responding to.  

I meant the same thing you meant.  We just worded it differently.  That work?  There is no partial Gospel.  

You been waitin' to pull out that "so says Huntinfool" line for a few days haven't ya?    Go ahead.  It's ok.


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## PWalls (Sep 18, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> You been waitin' to pull out that "so says Huntinfool" line for a few days haven't ya?    Go ahead.  It's ok.



Yes. Now I am happy. 

Still. I think we do agree. Preaching consistently only a piece of the Gospel is not a good thing. Especially if it only is the part we all want to hear. I think we all like our ears tickled.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 18, 2008)

I don't think that only preaching one piece of it is good.  The truth is the entire truth...not part of it.

I was just trying to point out the Olsteen is clearly going to stick with that.  If some people get saved in the process, I'm glad about that.  I'd prefer he do it differently.  But I'm not willing to brand the entire church and ministry as bad I guess.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 18, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Yes. Now I am happy.


----------



## Jeffriesw (Sep 18, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Joel readily admits that he has a calling to preach the "Good News".  But he apparently subdivides the "Good News" into that which focuses on the uplifting and that which focuses on the convicting and repenting. I should think all of us find it more pleasant to relate the "good" news rather than the "bad" news. Joel has drawn his line, leaving the task of preaching conviction and repentance to someone else. He may be called to evangelism, but with that calling comes a responsibility up to which he is not willing to live.
> There can be little doubt that he is doing a grave disservice to some.
> For me, half the Gospel (or a partial Gospel) is no Gospel .
> 
> ...





GT that is as good of an explanation on anything I have read in a long while,

Thanks, Bill J.


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## letsgohuntin (Sep 19, 2008)

*he will give you the desires of your heart...*

_
Osteen said as he paused to try to identify what he feels is most misunderstood about him. "I don't know if it's misunderstood. That's what I feel like my calling is." 

[*]"I'm just one part of what God wants us to do on the earth so I really feel that I'm running my race and maybe people don't necessarily see that," he continued. 

[*]But the Lakewood megachurch pastor stresses, "I'm called to plant a seed of hope in people's hearts"  
_
Why is this so hard to understand? He is doing what he feels God has called him to do! Hope is the message and gift he feels God has giving him so who are you to judge any different?  

Do you really think God is nieve enough to call only one type of pastor to the fight? I personally think he(God) is bright enough to call several different styles of pastors to the fight to appeal to all people, not just one group of front row baptist types. Simply put, coaches don't go to the big game with only one play... they employ players of all skill levels to hit the opposition with all of their weapons...wouldn't God do the same?


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## letsgohuntin (Sep 19, 2008)

gtparts said:


> "Sin and repentance" classes offered later on in the week probably means some are not getting "cake".



easy to *assume* from 400 miles away... 

perhaps they are? you guys haven't a clue what goes on inside of that church and I find it very disrespectful to judge 10,000 christian people you don't even know!


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## Huntinfool (Sep 19, 2008)

I appreciate that somebody finally sees parts of my points.  I'll just tell ya though bud...might as well let it go.  They're not gonna concede anything.  This is one of those agree to disagree kind of threads.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 19, 2008)

letsgohuntin said:


> Simply put, coaches don't go to the big game with only one play... they employ players of all skill levels to hit the opposition with all of their weapons...wouldn't God do the same?



You're analogy is a good one...God doesn't employ coaches and players of all skill levels.  Just look at me, I've got a 3rd grade level PHD and God is using me. 

But you've mistaken what Joel Osteen is doing.  He is coaching his team only offense.  If you only play offense, you'll never win the game.  You've got to have a balanced attack...offense and defense.  Same with preaching the Bible.  The good of hope and salvation, along with the bad of sin and destruction.  Both are equally important.


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## gtparts (Sep 19, 2008)

I like a good game as well as anyone, but I'm not sure the sports - coach - playbook analogy is a good one.

I doubt if God picks up tips on how to be God from ESPN. Do you think God needs more than one play? 

But just to stick with the analogy, IMHO Osteen busts a lot of plays cause he only runs the one route he likes regardless of the game situation. God knows what He requires of His team in order to put the ball in the end zone. Joel may not be putting all the "points" on the scoreboard he should because he quits running before he crosses the goal line.

400 miles? I've seen Joel's "feel good, but don't preach the hard truth of sin and repentance" sermons in my living room. You probably  have too.

Peace be unto you and yours.


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## letsgohuntin (Sep 20, 2008)

You guys kill me  

Y'all speak as though the only function in that huge church is Joel doing an hour long sermon for the tv show and then everyone goes home.

For some reason, most of you have dismissed the weekly bible study classes they hold during the week... Joel clearly states that's where they get the "meat  and potatoes". Again, you guys are in no position to judge how effective the classes are because none of you attend them.

I for one, would venture to say that the classes are filled to standing room only. 
I draw that conclusion, because my church does a similiar thing. We have a regular Sunday service of around 700 people. Then, we have individiual small groups throughout the week in which about 90% of the church attend. I see no reason to think that Joel's church results would be any different.

And BTW, I personally like listening to Joel's sermons... I don't make it a point to be in front of the tv when they come on, but I do rather enjoy them when I do catch them on.


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## letsgohuntin (Sep 20, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> I appreciate that somebody finally sees parts of my points.  I'll just tell ya though bud...might as well let it go.  They're not gonna concede anything.  This is one of those agree to disagree kind of threads.



I've been right there agreeing with ya the whole thread,I just tried my best not to jump in but I couldn't resist any longer


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## gtparts (Sep 20, 2008)

letsgohuntin said:


> You guys kill me
> 
> Y'all speak as though the only function in that huge church is Joel doing an hour long sermon for the tv show and then everyone goes home.
> 
> ...



How does his tv audience get the "meat and potatoes"? And unless you have attended the study classes, how would you know how many classes are held each week, what the course content is, or what the weekly attendance numbers are? 

The only problem I have with any preacher who only preaches the "feel good / prosperity" message is just this: If that preacher does not commit to preaching the whole truth of Christ, including taking up ones cross daily, bearing the burdens of others, sacrificial giving, and repentance of sin, he is not preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul sought to know Christ in His sufferings, that he might be counted as faithful. How does Joel convey that in his preaching? I've never heard it from his mouth.

As a so-called preacher of the Gospel, Joel does not have to preach according to your standards or mine. If anyone preaches a different ( in this case, abbreviated ) Gospel, he is accountable to God. I am not sure I would want to stand in his shoes.

Peace be unto you and yours.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 20, 2008)

gtparts said:


> How does his tv audience get the "meat and potatoes"? And unless you have attended the study classes, how would you know how many classes are held each week, what the course content is, or what the weekly attendance numbers are?
> 
> The only problem I have with any preacher who only preaches the "feel good / prosperity" message is just this: If that preacher does not commit to preaching the whole truth of Christ, including taking up ones cross daily, bearing the burdens of others, sacrificial giving, and repentance of sin, he is not preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul sought to know Christ in His sufferings, that he might be counted as faithful. How does Joel convey that in his preaching? I've never heard it from his mouth.
> 
> ...



Very good thoughts which I totally agree with.  

I don't think it is an assumption.  Again, I think that this has been posted before, but how many Hindu's, Muslims and others that don't believe the gospel saw this and felt good about what Joel Says.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfwYU2pmWYQ

And don't tell me he kinda screwed up, but he's trying to do a better job.  Watch how MacArthur deals with questions on this.  Tells the truth and doesn't back down.  Now, MacArthur has a true Bible believing church that is a "Mega Church."  Just doesn't get any coverage from TBN because he won't preach a message contrary to the Bible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GmDtmuzR-M&feature=related

Okay..okay...its out.  I like MacArthur.


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## Big7 (Sep 21, 2008)

Bet he DON'T CHEAT on his beautiful wife!
Why would he?

But Christy Brinkleys husband cheated on her.
Charlie Sheen cheated on Denise Richards.
So did Sara Evans' husband.

WHY - WHY -WHY


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## letsgohuntin (Sep 21, 2008)

gtparts said:


> And unless you have attended the study classes, how would you know how many classes are held each week, what the course content is, or what the weekly attendance numbers are?



Ummm that's pretty much my whole point! WE DON'T KNOW what goes on there but you guys still so arrogantly proclaim his church to be a joke. 

 As I mentioned in a previous post, he feels that God called him to preach and bring this type of message to the people and if you can't understand that then so be it.   If he is wrong and is just a fraud, then he will answer to God.


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## fishbum2000 (Sep 21, 2008)

ok ive been silent on this thread long enough
yall kill me blasting this man for his message. he is winning souls for the Lord. how many people have any of us done the same for ??? 
the "meat and potatoes " as some like to refer to is in the Bible and i for one dont just get my bible reading on sunday from the preacher. Joel does speak on how you should READ the bible. 
you cant be a part time Christian, getting a little food on sunday morning wensday night , and if you happen to be in a church that has a sunday night service then you may go then to. you have to be a Christian all day every day 24/7/365
heres the thing, Joel's message is winning souls to the Lord, the real question is: is ours


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## PWalls (Sep 21, 2008)

One thing to remember.

Sometimes, we only get one chance to impact someone for God. That's it. Therefore, we should make the most of every possible time we do it. That is why any gospel preaching should have the entire gospel message and not just the "feel good" parts.

What is the one time a lost person hears the "gospel" is when they see Joel on TV one time? Are you supporters actually saying they are getting enough during that? They fully understand their condition and then need to committ to Jesus Christ as the only way to Heaven? They need to repent and confess? I haven't heard that in his sermons.


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## fishbum2000 (Sep 21, 2008)

if they got saved then they got all they needed at that moment, the Holy Spirit will fill in the gaps as He sees the need. some people arent ready to hear about the wrath of God befor they get saved. the conviction of sin will come in Gods time


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## rjcruiser (Sep 21, 2008)

fishbum2000 said:


> if they got saved then they got all they needed at that moment, the Holy Spirit will fill in the gaps as He sees the need. some people arent ready to hear about the wrath of God befor they get saved. the conviction of sin will come in Gods time



If you don't know about the wrath of God, what do you need salvation from

Kinda like telling someone they need to take medicine when they have no idea or belief that they are even sick.


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## gtparts (Sep 21, 2008)

fishbum2000 said:


> if they got saved then they got all they needed at that moment, the Holy Spirit will fill in the gaps as He sees the need. some people arent ready to hear about the wrath of God befor they get saved. the conviction of sin will come in Gods time



Oh, I get it now. Salvation first, then conviction ( maybe later)and finally repentance (but only if needed). Boy, do I feel stupid! I've obviously had the "cart before the horse" all my life.

Thanks , fishbum. I FEEL all better now!


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## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Thanks , fishbum. I FEEL all better now!



Don't know about you guys....




But the Gospel I know; the one that saved me and the one I live out every day DOES feel good.  In fact, I'd say it feels GREAT!


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## rjcruiser (Sep 22, 2008)

fishbum2000 said:


> if they got saved then they got all they needed at that moment, the Holy Spirit will fill in the gaps as He sees the need. some people arent ready to hear about the wrath of God befor they get saved. the conviction of sin will come in Gods time





rjcruiser said:


> If you don't know about the wrath of God, what do you need salvation from
> 
> Kinda like telling someone they need to take medicine when they have no idea or belief that they are even sick.





gtparts said:


> Oh, I get it now. Salvation first, then conviction ( maybe later)and finally repentance (but only if needed). Boy, do I feel stupid! I've obviously had the "cart before the horse" all my life.
> 
> Thanks , fishbum. I FEEL all better now!





Huntinfool said:


> Don't know about you guys....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I feel great too.  The problem is with Fishbum's first comment.  You feel great because you know what you were saved from.  I feel great because I know what I was saved from.  But according to Fishbum's post, you can feel great even though you have no clue what you are saved from.  Just doesn't make sense.

Again, did any of you watch the youtube links I posted?  Sorry I don't know how to imbed this into the post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfwYU2pmWYQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GmDt...eature=related


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## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2008)

I think maybe you're not hearing what he was intending to say.  Yeh, maybe he wrote it wrong.  I'll tell you what I read even if it's worded incorrectly. 

I suppose let's think of it as two ways to present the same thing.  

First way:  God loves you desperately.  He won't hold anything against you and he'll love you regardless of what you've done in the past if you'll just come to him.  In fact, he loves you so much that he wants you to spend eternity in his awesome presence and he sent his son to provide you a way to eternal life and forgiveness.

Second way:  God sent his son to die for your sins and for your salvation.  Why?  Because if he hadn't you would be condemned to live out eternity in a horrible place called He||.  If you don't accept Jesus as your savior, you will die and you will go to He||.  If you do, you'll live forever in the awesome presence of God.

Ask me, I'll tell you those are the same message.  One emphasizes God's love for the sinner and one emphasizes "the other option".  Both are true and both give the correct message.

I think what fishbum was getting at was that the Gospel CAN be preached fully without condemnation to He|| being the focal point of the message.  The last thing a hurting, broken sinner needs to hear at his lowest point is that he is a sinner IMO.  He's very well aware of it.  What he needs to hear is that somebody (God) loves him and that what he's done will be forgiven if he seeks Christ.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Again, did any of you watch the youtube links I posted?  Sorry I don't know how to imbed this into the post.



Honestly, no I didn't.  I can't watch them at work.  But I'm sure I get what's in them.  Absolutely there are some churches out there that are not preaching the gospel.  I don't deny that.  

My main issue in this thread has simply been that we really don't know what else is going on in that church and there are too many people who just jump on the bandwagon of condemnation of the church simply based on what they heard Sunday morning.

As I've said before, I agree, he's pushing the line on the whole prosperity gospel thing.  I'm not real big on it.  But if there are people finding Christ by the thousands (and I don't know whether there are or aren't), in places in that church other than Sunday morning service, I'm all for it.

Let me ask this...If we're "classifying" churches.  Would those that are not "Seeker-Sensitive", then, be called "Seeker-INsensitive"??

I'll take the former all day if given the choice.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 22, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Honestly, no I didn't.  I can't watch them at work.  But I'm sure I get what's in them.  Absolutely there are some churches out there that are not preaching the gospel.  I don't deny that.



I encourage you watch them at home (I know I can't watch them at work either....unless the Web guys at work are having a bad day ) and make a determination for yourself if Osteen is preaching a Gospel that resembles what the Bible says.

I don't think that anyone who has posted a negative thing about Osteen is assuming anything based Osteen's own words.


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## fishbum2000 (Sep 23, 2008)

come on give me a break, if a person gets saved they know they are in sin. that much should be implied. maybe what i said was worded in a way that some didnt agree to but my main point was that souls got saved. some of you act like that is a bad thing because of who brought the message. i can tell you this, if you are saved you know what im talking about, you can feel the presence of the Holy Spirit pulling on you just before you pray that prayer. Jesus is the one who saves you and the Spirit is the one who compells you, it dosent matter how the message is presented or whom its presented by, if the Lord dosent pull you to him you will never be saved, i dont care if your read a thirty page disertation on sin, repentance , and the pits of you know where, it aint going to happen.


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## MX5HIGH (Jan 17, 2009)

preacher said:


> By the way, I wasn't using profanity.  Just naming a place that starts with the letter H.



I know what you mean.  Just look at my sig.  Why is it a word can be used in the Bible and can't be used in this forum?  Go figure.  Am I upset, you bet I am!   Ez


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## Israel (Jan 17, 2009)

fishbum2000 said:


> if they got saved then they got all they needed at that moment, the Holy Spirit will fill in the gaps as He sees the need. some people arent ready to hear about the wrath of God befor they get saved. the conviction of sin will come in Gods time



I'm thinking of Cornelius.
Then I think of the preaching at Pentecost.

Maybe how God approaches us is according to our own hearts...some need to be broken horribly for their sin...some may simply need to hear the words of life in the Gospel and come alive.
Peter had to go through some things it doesn't look like John went through...although I am convinced both came to hate sin and love their savior in the same measure.

That being said, I cannot imagine repentance not being preached...as to how and its effects on the hearer...either tears... or whoopee! I can drop this dead weight...only God knows.


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## PWalls (Jan 17, 2009)

Ezriderga said:


> I know what you mean.  Just look at my sig.  Why is it a word can be used in the Bible and can't be used in this forum?  Go figure.  Am I upset, you bet I am!   Ez



The censor program on this internet website is not selective. Once you put a word in that list, it is censored across the entire board. We make allowances for typing around that censor in the Spiritual Forum because 99% of the time the word is used to describe the physical place and is in context. Regrettably, there are many others on this board that would use that word as slang or a curse word which is why it is in the censor along with all the other curse words. Hopefully that explains it.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 17, 2009)

What Osteen says is powerfully important and he comes across in ways that can easily be understood and applied to life.
I just wish he gave the whole story.

But, like I tell the folks at church, if you don't like my sermon, tell me, don't bad-mouth what I've prepared for you while you're eating Sunday dinner.


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## Buckmoses (Jan 18, 2009)

Osteen needs to preach to his wife to not look down and talk down to ordinary people like she did that flight attendant, only because there was a piece of cheesecake on her seat.  The Osteens are rich beyond belief.  He is an ok momma's boy.  She is a witch.


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## Huntinfool (Jan 20, 2009)

Wow!   Tell us how you really feel about them bud.


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## Big10point (Jan 20, 2009)

Osteen is preaching a false Gospel and will get judged harshly (1) Judgement begins in the church... 2) teachers of the Word get a harsher judgment by God).  But he is not the only one.  Most of the TV preachers teach a feel good gospel which are not Gospels at all...  there is only 1 Gospel and a whole bunch of gospels... I have researched most of the TBN preachers and was shocked at what i found. Its scary. there are a couple of other channels that are just as bad... all they do is sit their and tell the viewers to "sow their seed"... they are hirelings. "just give $30/ month for the next 3 years, and you will be blessed..."...  they are deceived and are deceiving people. if any of them were legetimate i would be surprised...  its a shame that any poor unsuspecting person give a dime to those people.
here's a website with a lot of data on this kind of stuff... now b4 somebody throws stones its just a site with info...  if its a 100% factual data...? i dont know. i am sure most of its true...

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tele-evangelist_lifestyles.html

i once heard John Hagee say Jesus did not come to earth to "save" anyone...  and that the Jews dont need Christ...
unbelievable...


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## celticfisherman (Jan 20, 2009)

We agree on something!!!!!!!!!

Obama is not the anti-christ. Osteen is! He has better hair anyway...


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## Jeffriesw (Jan 20, 2009)

Big10point said:


> Osteen is preaching a false Gospel and will get judged harshly (1) Judgement begins in the church... 2) teachers of the Word get a harsher judgment by God).  But he is not the only one.  Most of the TV preachers teach a feel good gospel which are not Gospels at all...  there is only 1 Gospel and a whole bunch of gospels... I have researched most of the TBN preachers and was shocked at what i found. Its scary. there are a couple of other channels that are just as bad... all they do is sit their and tell the viewers to "sow their seed"... they are hirelings. "just give $30/ month for the next 3 years, and you will be blessed..."...  they are deceived and are deceiving people. if any of them were legetimate i would be surprised...  its a shame that any poor unsuspecting person give a dime to those people.
> here's a website with a lot of data on this kind of stuff... now b4 somebody throws stones its just a site with info...  if its a 100% factual data...? i dont know. i am sure most of its true...
> 
> http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tele-evangelist_lifestyles.html
> ...





Sweet Mary mother of God... 
Did ya'll look at some of those numbers in that link
I knew religion paid, but I didn't know it paid that well

If I had there money, I could throw mine away.



Seriously folks, I have no problem with a Pastor of a Church making a good living, I am not not talking about starving either, I am talking about a good living.

But would any of you write a tithing check or give a gift to any of these ministries?


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## celticfisherman (Jan 20, 2009)

Nope... 

Remember that old Ray Stevens song. Would Jesus wear a Rolex?


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## Ronnie T (Jan 20, 2009)

I'd be scared to death with that kind of money.


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## Huntinfool (Jan 21, 2009)

I hesitate to even post this because I'm honestly ready for this thread to STAY dead.

But I am curious what people would say about this.  How do you respond to Paul's thoughts in Philippians?  I read it this morning and have debated as to whether I would post it.  I think I know how most of you would respond and dismiss it.  But I'm curious none-the-less.

_15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. 
_

"The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely"....BUT WHO CARES? says Paul...."the important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true....CHRIST IS PREACHED."

So how do we react to Paul in the context of preachers like Osteen?


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## Double Barrel BB (Jan 21, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> "The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely"....BUT WHO CARES? says Paul...."the important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true....CHRIST IS PREACHED."
> 
> So how do we react to Paul in the context of preachers like Osteen?


 
I think Christ and Doctorine could be preached at the same time... I just think the Osteen stays away from Doctorine, just because Doctorine can make you feel "uncomfortable"...

Some people want Christ on their terms, and not on Christ's terms...

Just my 2 cents,
DB BB


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## rjcruiser (Jan 21, 2009)

I like how DB BB put it.

One must be careful also to determine if what Osteen preaches is Christ.  What does John tell us in II John about those who don't preach the doctrine of Christ?  They are anathema.

Thought I'd throw that anathema in for Dawg2


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## Huntinfool (Jan 21, 2009)

But does he or does he not preach Christ and salvation through him?

His motives, according to Paul, are irrelevant.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 21, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> But does he or does he not preach Christ and salvation through him?
> 
> His motives, according to Paul, are irrelevant.



I agree...per Paul, motives are irrevelant.

However, I'm still unsure as to if he preaches Christ and salvation through Him alone.  I added the alone part because I think that is a key part.

I've never been to one of his services.  I've only seen bits and pieces on tv (I don't think I've ever lasted through an entire sermon of his) and seen his interviews with Larry King.  Based on these experiences, I don't think he preaches Christ and Salvation through Him alone.

Does that answer it clearly enough


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## Huntinfool (Jan 21, 2009)

Fair enough.  I kind of agree.

My issue is that there are MANY posts on here that essentially put this guy on level with Satan himself simply because the poster does not agree with his methods.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 21, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Fair enough.  I kind of agree.
> 
> My issue is that there are MANY posts on here that essentially put this guy on level with Satan himself simply because the poster does not agree with his methods.





Methods...now you're stirring the pot.  You and I won't agree on methods...but the message, I think we're pretty close on.

The problem I have with methods is that I think it is closely related to the message.  Although not always the case, most pastors who get up and preach in a t-shirt and shorts don't preach expositionally, but rather the topic of the day.  They don't preach doctrine, but what the social hot-button issues are.  And what happens....you've got a flock of spiritual babes at best.  At worst, you've got a flock of people who think they are saved and going to heaven, but in fact no nothing of the true Gospel of Christ.

Again, that is a broad stroke with a broad brush.  And no...I'm not one to say you can't wear jeans to Church or you can't have drums up on stage.


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## Huntinfool (Jan 21, 2009)

Jeans?  Guilty
Drums?  Guilty

But you know that.....trouble maker.



Scripture and doctrine needs to be preached.  But, I would also add that there is absolutley nothing wrong with preaching about the social hot button from a biblical perspective....and wearing jeans while you do it!

OK, now we're off topic again.  I just wanted to post that passage because I thought it was amazing how it completely refuted a lot of what's been said in many threads about "the right way to do it".


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## Jeffriesw (Jan 21, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Jeans?  Guilty
> Drums?  Guilty
> 
> But you know that.....trouble maker.
> ...




I am for one am glad you posted it.
My intial opinion of Osteen was not very good, but I have to be honest and say it was based on others opinions and my lack of knowledge about him and his Church.

My Wife and I have watched him several times lately and I still think his message is a little to touchy feely for me with no meat to it, But from what I read about his Church they get there meat in classes and groups during the week.

As far as "The Right Way"
I think alot of "The Right Way" (as applied to the method and not the Message) has more to do with religion than it does Christianity. IMHO


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## celticfisherman (Jan 21, 2009)

Swamp Runner said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> I am for one am glad you posted it.
> My intial opinion of Osteen was not very good, but I have to be honest and say it was based on others opinions and my lack of knowledge about him and his Church.
> ...



The problem I have with that is that he should not be broadcasting the fluff then. If the meat gets out behind closed doors then he is doing a disservice to his audience. And his books are much more prosperity gospel oriented than his preaching.


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## Big10point (Jan 22, 2009)

*the title...*

... of this thread is not correct....  Osteen is not arming his flock with hope... there is only 1 hope and that is Christ.  even Christ doesnt give hope and peace, He IS OUR hope and peace and He gives Himself to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.... 

without Christ there is no hope.  so to say that Osteen is giving "hope" would not be accurate.  if he was giving hope, he would be giving Christ to his flock but he is not... any other gospel besides the 1 true Gospel is no gospel at all...  he's a hireling.  in it for the money, fame and power... if he preached Christ, Bible, doctrine, Gospel, heaven and helll, 99% of the time and peace and prosperity the other 1% of the time... thats not a problem.. but preaching health and wealth 99% of the time and Bible the other 1% makes him a hireling...  he brings glory to himself and not Chirst...  Christ shares His glory with nobody...


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## Huntinfool (Jan 23, 2009)

Big 10....you're just flat wrong bro.

Do you seriously believe that Osteen leaves Christ out of his church?  Do you seriously believe he never mentions the name of Christ or that he is our hope and salvation?  

Too many people on here make judgements based on heresay and never bother to find out for themselves.  Seems to be the issue that folks like DD and other have with Christians.  Actually, it's the same issue that I have with many Christians.  

He doesn't do it the way that many of us would like.  But he DOES preach Christ and he DOES preach salvation.  Go watch the broadcasts.  Does he also preach a "prosperity" gospel?  Yeh, he does often.  

But, again, my point is that Paul CLEARY says that he doesn't care why or how....just that Christ is preached.


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## Banjo (Jan 23, 2009)

He may preach a CHRIST....but is it the one of which the Bible speaks?

By the way....I  have missed seeing you around here, Huntin.  I hope the family is well...especially that new addition.


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## Huntinfool (Jan 23, 2009)

Like I said....you may not like how he does it.  I may not like how he does it.  Show me how you refute it in light of Paul's comments.


BTW...family's doing great.  Everybody's finally back healthy and happy.  Now if we could just sleep more than 3 hours at a time!


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## celticfisherman (Jan 23, 2009)

Nor can you find the Christ he preaches in the Bible. It is not a pick and chose gospel.


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## Huntinfool (Jan 23, 2009)

Care to expand on that?  Exactly which Christ is he preaching?






Here is what he believes from his website...just so you can figure out which Christ he believes in.

WE BELIEVE…the entire Bible is inspired by God, without error and the authority on which we base our faith, conduct and doctrine.

WE BELIEVE…in one God who exists in three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to this earth as Savior of the world.

WE BELIEVE…Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for our sins. We believe that salvation is found by placing our faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross. We believe Jesus rose from the dead and is coming again.

WE BELIEVE…water baptism is a symbol of the cleansing power of the blood of Christ and a testimony to our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

WE BELIEVE…in the regular taking of Communion as an act of remembering what the Lord Jesus did for us on the cross.

WE BELIEVE…every believer should be in a growing relationship with Jesus by obeying God’s Word, yielding to the Holy Spirit and by being conformed to the image of Christ.

WE BELIEVE…as children of God, we are overcomers and more than conquerors and God intends for each of us to experience the abundant life He has in store for us.


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## celticfisherman (Jan 23, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Care to expand on that?  Exactly which Christ is he preaching?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Read the last one then all his books.


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## Huntinfool (Jan 23, 2009)

I assumed you'd ignore all the other stuff listed above it simply because you don't approve of him.

Choosing to ignore the "Jesus died on the cross and shed his blood for our sins" part, are we?


....and I'm curious....why do we so often assume that God doesn't want all those good things for us that Osteen talks about?  Why do we assume that the Christian life is one of misery and not of victory?  Osteen may or may not be preaching that message for personal gain.  We cannot know the heart of the man.  But, again, Paul clearly said in Philippians that it doesn't matter what his motivation is.

I know entirely too many miserable "Christians".


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## Big10point (Jan 23, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Big 10....you're just flat wrong bro.
> 
> Do you seriously believe that Osteen leaves Christ out of his church?  Do you seriously believe he never mentions the name of Christ or that he is our hope and salvation?
> 
> ...



he is not preaching Christ. "health and wealth" and "feel good" is NOT the Gospel...  Paul did not mean for pastors to go out and preach whatever they feel like it.  they are to preach the Gospel of the Bible, NOT the gospel of Smiley Osteen...  NOT the gospel of John Hagee, NOT the gospel of the pope... they are to preach the BIBLE... faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God... NOT the word of Smiley Osteen... how are his flock supposed to get faith (if it comes by hearing the Word) if all they ever hear is "feel good"...

and i have watched him before, many times. i still do. its a joke, a sad one... but still, a joke....  "this is my Bible, i am who it says i am... i can do what it says i can do..."  blah blah blah...

he is teaching the gospel according to Joel, not Christ. i am not saying that every single sermon should be "fire and brimstone" but he never teaches that ever... his people have "itching ears"... they want to feel good and that what he gives them...  he is a very "exalted" man and will be "humbled" for teaching health and wealth...

teaching like Christ, John the Baptist and the Apostles should be the goal of the pastor...  Jesus taught more about helll than any other person in the Bible.... why is that???  He wanted to warn people... but people dont want to hear heaven & helll... they want to hear about health and wealth...  things that most and rust destroy...  we are not to lay up treasures on earth but in heaven...


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## Huntinfool (Jan 23, 2009)

Lot of anger in that post.


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