# need help with pattern (?) choke (?) shells (?)



## billy673 (Oct 20, 2009)

-as i've posted on here before i recently bought a new 835 w/ 20" barrel.
-the 1st time i got to shoot it was with the factory x-factor choke .695 but was at in indoor range at only 25 yds putting 270 +- shot in a 10" circle with Win. ex-rnge hd 2 oz 3-1/2" #5's.
-thought i was happy enough 1st time out with the Win #5's so i purchased a Kicks gobblin thunder .680 choke.
-cut out of work early today and off to the range i went...
-i shot at 15, 20, 30 & 4 shots at 40
-15 yd -  all shot in 5" cir
-20 yd - 274 in 10" cir (same as x-factor choke at 25 yd)
-30 yd - 190 in 10"
-40 yd - 102 average in 10"
-i didn't see any reason (as you can see) to try out to 50
-yes, it was a little windy (shooting into wind) but i wasn't impressed with my patterns with my new choke / shell combo choice 
- not sure what to do at this point but i'm thinking maybe different shells and shot size 
- i have 2 chokes to play with (kicks & x-factor) and my gun is my gun so i'm needing to rethink this shell thing 

could you guys help me pick out some new shells to try ? thanks, billy


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 20, 2009)

I'd try the factory choke again....and I'd try them both with #4 shot.

I used to be a 10 inch circle shooter now I look for a nice even pattern in about a 24" to 28" circle at 40 yards and don't worry about the pellet count in a 10 inch circle. 

In the last few years I've did quite a bit of turkey shooting with vintage SxS's with payloads ranging from 1&5/8 oz of shot in my 10 ga. to 1&1/4oz of shot in my 12 ga....I don't like to bragg but I've shot lots of turkeys with these old guns and none have gotten away. 
It's taught me allot....you don't need a monster magnum turkey gun to kill turkeys.


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## short stop (Oct 21, 2009)

I dont like  to brag .... lol.. Please ....

       theres  quite  a few of us   that  have been on the  road  for  awhile ...


    Shot  ?  going the  way of  #4   and #5's     is  going back in time to the  dino ages    .. I killed birds   in the   early 80  /90s   with those loads . 
    Sure they  work  but they do not hold  a candle to the   pattern testing    done  by  the  newer   loads     shooting  heavy   13s  ,    TSS    #7, 8 , or 9s ..    with a   .690-.695   choke .


   and  if  anybody tells you diff      tell them to POST  up  some  patterns not run off at the  keyboard   yaking .. Proof  is  in the pics   and facts .. do you need a  mag gun  /mag  load to kill a bird ..  Nope ...   but   if  your    dead set on   going all out  .. Why ,   settle  for  chump change    if your  testing   and spending money   for  Prime   results ?    
    2 oz   #4s  have  270ish  pellets   compaired to  690ish    of  #9 tss ..


'' I dont  like  to brag ''.....  Im still   laughin at that  TC ....
 keep pattn yourself on the back ....lol 

  24''-28'' patterns  at 40  yrds ?????     not concentrating on    10'' patterns  goes against  all logic of  aiming at a turkeys   head...
  U  might as well   just  point the  barrel at the bird   from the hip and pull the trigger   with  a pattern  like that .
    You can do that  with  #5    lead  off the walmart  floor  and    stock modified   chokes  tubes ..     28'' paterns     lol   .......     
--   so much for  the good  pattern testing, choke  ,shell advice from the 1990's  ..


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## hawglips (Oct 21, 2009)

I'd suggest trying #6s in the WinXRHD 12g/cc shot, or the Hevi-13 sixes.  Or for the best commercially available patterns, break down and buy some Nitros 7s, or 4x5x7s.

I certainly wouldn't go up to straight #4 in that or any other shot.  Your pattern will get too sparse and you increase the risk of cripples.


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## icdedturkes (Oct 21, 2009)

My buddy has that gun with the short barrel and I have witnessed good patterns with a variety of ammo and a Pure Gold 670.


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 21, 2009)

short stop said:


> 24''-28'' patterns  at 40  yrds ?????     not concentrating on    10'' patterns  goes against  all logic of  aiming at a turkeys   head...



What outdoor writer that probably never shot a turkey gave you this great 10" logic ?....

Not having a good 24 to 28" pattern to make up for human error in your aim or should the turkey dip his head as you shoot at 40 yards is not using the common sense that the Good Lord gave you.  

There's more to killing turkeys than a 10 inch circle.


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 21, 2009)

hawglips said:


> Your pattern will get too sparse and you increase the risk of cripples.



I've never lost or crippled a turkey shooting copper plated lead #4 shot....some guns can shoot 4 shot remarkably well. 

Once you past the notion that you need a great amount of shot a 10" circle to kill a turkey....life in the turkey woods and at the dinner table can be grand.


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## poorcountrypreacher (Oct 21, 2009)

>>>Not having a good 24 to 28" pattern to make up for human error in your aim or should the turkey dip his head as you shoot at 40 yards is not using the common sense that the Good Lord gave you.<<<

For once, I agree with you, TC. Find the point where your rig has the widest pattern that is dense enough for certain kills - that gives you the most margin for error, and I need margin for error.

Unfortunately, I've never been able to come up with a combo that gave me even a 24" killing pattern at 40 yds, much less a 28". Usually 16-18" is the best I can do. My TSS load gives a wider pattern that that at 50, but I suspect there is a combo that would use less choke and give that ideal pattern at 40. I haven't had time to figure it out.

The numbers on the #5 Ext Range are pretty low; I'd look for something else. Going to #6 as Hal suggested is probably very good advice. I will say that I got 115 out of #5 at 40 with a .670 PG choke, but that was thru a SBE. I wasn't impressed enough with it to use it.

Good luck on finding the right combo.


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## Gadget (Oct 21, 2009)

short stop said:


> I dont like  to brag .... lol.. Please ....
> 
> theres  quite  a few of us   that  have been on the  road  for  awhile ...
> 
> ...











> Not having a good 24 to 28" pattern to make up for human error in your aim or should the turkey dip his head as you shoot at 40 yards is not using the common sense that the Good Lord gave you.
> 
> There's more to killing turkeys than a 10 inch circle.





Frank please post some pics of those 24"-28" patterns at 40yds using #4 copper plated lead, I'm sure everyone would like to see that....


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## hawglips (Oct 21, 2009)

Gadget said:


> Frank please post some pics of those 24"-28" patterns at 40yds using #4 copper plated lead, I'm sure everyone would like to see that....



I would be very interested in seeing those patterns.  The 40 yd patterns I've seen with copper plated lead #4s are very marginal, IMO.  I certainly wouldn't recommend shooting them at turkeys.  If I was shooting #4 lead with my gun, I'd be inclined to limit my shots to under 40 yds for sure.  Probably more like 35 or so.


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## icdedturkes (Oct 21, 2009)

I got sucked into the whole 10" circle thing the past few years because of these forums. Last year I coupled Nitros with a Pure Gold 555 and boy was I stackin um 238 in a ten inch circle at 40 with a 20g. Meanwhile Bill from Pure Gold and MKW were telling me that the 555 with that ammo was going to be too tight for hunting purposes, I shrugged it off the tighter the better. 

Well the first day in SD last year I ate crow when I missed 4 times inside of 25 yards the first day as the girlfriend sat laughing with no tags left. 

This year with whatever ammo I am shooting whether it be the Fed HW or the Nitros I am going to pay particular to the eight inches surrounding that ten inch circle for hunting purposes. 

Ten inch circles are fun for comparing loads, chokes and such for the actual "sport" of shooting, but overall study of the pattern is more important than any number.


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## Gadget (Oct 21, 2009)

hawglips said:


> I would be very interested in seeing those patterns.  The 40 yd patterns I've seen with copper plated lead #4s are very marginal, IMO.  I certainly wouldn't recommend shooting them at turkeys.  If I was shooting #4 lead with my gun, I'd be inclined to limit my shots to under 40 yds for sure.  Probably more like 35 or so.




That's the same I see outta my guns, 35yds max pattern with lead #4, unless you range all your turkey and know exactly where they are you'd be inclined to cripple a bird if you made a mistake at guessing the yardage, a couple pellets in the head and neck won't put him down unless they hit the brain or spinal cord.


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## Gadget (Oct 21, 2009)

icdedturkes said:


> I got sucked into the whole 10" circle thing the past few years because of these forums. Last year I coupled Nitros with a Pure Gold 555 and boy was I stackin um 238 in a ten inch circle at 40 with a 20g. Meanwhile Bill from Pure Gold and MKW were telling me that the 555 with that ammo was going to be too tight for hunting purposes, I shrugged it off the tighter the better.
> 
> Well the first day in SD last year I ate crow when I missed 4 times inside of 25 yards the first day as the girlfriend sat laughing with no tags left.
> 
> ...




I learned that lesson several years ago, you've seen me preach it here the last couple years. If you noticed all my targets have a 20" circle, not just 10" and I always count both. I shoot a XX  choke in my guns, instead of the XXX and XXXX you see most ppl using, and may be backing out to just XFull. Will be ordering a custom .680 and .690 puregold here soon.


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## hawglips (Oct 21, 2009)

Man, I get goose bumps looking at that pattern.  And I do the same Rick -- count both the 10 and the 20" circle.  

I use a .690 (X-full) choke for hunting  with my Mossberg 500, with the T98s.  A plain full choke is a good hunting choke with the 18g/cc shot, IMO.


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## hawglips (Oct 21, 2009)

Gadget said:


> Once you reach 100 pellets in a 10 circle you've reached you maximum "reliable" killing range........IMO



I agree.   You can kill one with less, but you really run up the risk of cripples, IMO.  100 in the 10" is my rule of thumb when I'm talking to others about where to draw the line.  I draw the line at a lot higher for my own use, but don't expect others to.


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## Gadget (Oct 21, 2009)

hawglips said:


> Man, I get goose bumps looking at that pattern.  And I do the same Rick -- count both the 10 and the 20" circle.
> 
> I use a .690 (X-full) choke for hunting  with my Mossberg 500, with the T98s.  A plain full choke is a good hunting choke with the 18g/cc shot, IMO.





Even with 560 pellets in the 20 inch circle you can still see holes in the pattern around the outside but somehow TC is getting  24-28 inch patterns out of #4 lead with less than half the pellets......  Come on lets see those patterns TC....


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## hawglips (Oct 21, 2009)

With lead #4s, you only get 135 pellets per ounce.   270 pellets for a 2 oz. load.   That's just not enough pellets for a good turkey load.


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## trkyhntr70 (Oct 21, 2009)

Billy,
I dont think it sounds like your intrested in loading any TSS,
You will get more pattern density by going to smaller size shot, this will extend your range with the HTL loads.
You could order Nitros and just be done with the whole thing,
You could try the Hevi 13s, If so ;   the 3.5" in the 2.25 .oz #6s.
Just get the Nitros and forget about it.


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## billy673 (Oct 21, 2009)

Do the Nitros come in more than one (hevy) material ? I found
Their web site last night and I think they had copper over lead
And nickle over lead ? Does this sound right or am I way off ?
No problem shooting Nitros thru a Kicks choke ?


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## icdedturkes (Oct 21, 2009)

billy673 said:


> Do the Nitros come in more than one (hevy) material ? I found
> Their web site last night and I think they had copper over lead
> And nickle over lead ? Does this sound right or am I way off ?
> No problem shooting Nitros thru a Kicks choke ?



You saw the lead versions there is a hevi version that is 4 5 7 or 4 5 6 or custom whatever your fancy, a lot of folks have opted for the straight 7 version as the bulk of the 4 5 7 load is comprised of 7s. 

Charlie Boswell says no Hevi Shot in his chokes _EXCEPT_ the Nitro company loads.


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## fountain (Oct 21, 2009)

keep the gt choke and shoot #7.5 3.5" nitros.  it has worked well for me in the same gun.  if you wann aplay with choke sizes or want another get a .690 jellyhead and shoot the 501L load from nitro or the H517.  if you can find some custom loaded TSS loads, then try them.  i dont know of any available


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 21, 2009)

hawglips said:


> Man, I get goose bumps looking at that pattern.


 I get gOOse bumps thinking about trying to eat a turkey hit with that....that's why I stopped shooting Nitros.





I'm really not into pellet counting anymore...here's pic of my 10 ga. at 40 yards with 1 & 5/8 oz of number 4 shot. It's a handload that chronographs 1310 fps...this is on a greased steel patterning plate. The pipe in the middle is about 2 inches.


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## billy673 (Oct 21, 2009)

thanks for all the replies guys, i could read about turkey hunting related topics all day long , gonna give the Nitro 7's a try (after i find a 7-11 to rob ! ) (jk) 
here's another question, ya already know i got a Kicks .680 and the factory X-factor .695 and i'd like to run some of them Nitros thru both, well i also got a Kicks  .670 to try out , do you think the .670 is too constricted for the HTL load's or should i give it whirl ?


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## ticeman (Oct 21, 2009)

Here's what I always found to be interesting in these forums i belong to: people have cooked up handloads over the years that have allegedly put out better patterns than Nitro's, in whatever configuration, and yet, no one has ever had the BALLS to go into business for themselves and offer better CS than Nitro (not hard to do, let's be honest) and go head to head. Ironically, they make claims like "nitro's will be obsolete" or "nitro's are done".



Furthermore, instead of seeing how far or how bad your shells are, why dontcha learn to be more patient and become a better caller and you can kill em with a .410 at 10-15 yrds, like I will do next spring, it's a MUCH bigger rush.


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## trkyhntr70 (Oct 21, 2009)

billy673 said:


> thanks for all the replies guys, i could read about turkey hunting related topics all day long , gonna give the Nitro 7's a try (after i find a 7-11 to rob ! ) (jk)
> here's another question, ya already know i got a Kicks .680 and the factory X-factor .695 and i'd like to run some of them Nitros thru both, well i also got a Kicks  .670 to try out , do you think the .670 is too constricted for the HTL load's or should i give it whirl ?



Billy,
With the straight 7 Nitros the .670 will probally be the tighter pattern, But with either choke you will be pleased with the Nitros.
They are a lil pricey but well worth it.


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## billy673 (Oct 21, 2009)

trkyhntr70 said:


> Billy,
> With the straight 7 Nitros the .670 will probally be the tighter pattern, But with either choke you will be pleased with the Nitros.
> They are a lil pricey but well worth it.


great !    thanks


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## short stop (Oct 21, 2009)

ticeman said:


> Here's what I always found to be interesting in these forums i belong to: people have cooked up handloads over the years that have allegedly put out better patterns than Nitro's, in whatever configuration, and yet, no one has ever had the BALLS to go into business for themselves and offer better CS than Nitro (not hard to do, let's be honest) and go head to head. Ironically, they make claims like "nitro's will be obsolete" or "nitro's are done".
> 
> 
> 
> Furthermore, instead of seeing how far or how bad your shells are, why dontcha learn to be more patient and become a better caller and you can kill em with a .410 at 10-15 yrds, like I will do next spring, it's a MUCH bigger rush.


 Do you enjoy you occupation ? 
   do you   feel  compleled  to work   from the moement you get up ?   Would you want to work all the way thru   Turkey season     constantly   on backorder    staying behind ? 

 Just beacuse ''some ''  can make a better  shell doesnt mean  they  have to start a buisness ..  making stuff better than   store bought production  runs   is  the  challenge ..   Doing it for the  $    would  rob  them of the time  and  make you  married   to  it  full time ..   
       when you do it for fun   and kicks ...   it isnt a job  

 ... as far as the .410   opt   ..I  game  but have never found  a  gun I cared for  short of the   Rem 1100.  There  is no  wide variety of  shells to pick from either  on a local scale ..  Cost of a factory .410  load  would put me right  back in the   handload market   again .


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## ticeman (Oct 21, 2009)

> Just beacuse ''some '' can make a better shell doesnt mean they have to start a buisness



then how do "they" make the claim that Nitro is "done" or obsolete?




> as far as the .410 opt ..I game but have never found a gun I cared for short of the Rem 1100.



Options are limited, but I will guarantee that a bird gets to 10 yrds, and it's lights out, called in a whole buncha birds last year at that distance, seemed like a waste of $5 Nitro's. Less is more for me next year, which is why I will also kill one with a bow, WITHOUT a blind, guess I am a glutton for punishment, but i like a challenge.


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## fountain (Oct 21, 2009)

billy--i lied to ya.  i am shooting a .670 kicks with the #7 nitros, not the .680.  i am getting a very high pellet count at 40 yards with it as well.  the .680 is in my other gun that i will shoot the hevi 13 #6.


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## billy673 (Oct 21, 2009)

fountain said:


> billy--i lied to ya.  i am shooting a .670 kicks with the #7 nitros, not the .680.  i am getting a very high pellet count at 40 yards with it as well.  the .680 is in my other gun that i will shoot the hevi 13 #6.


what oz load 3-1/2's ya shooting ?


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 22, 2009)

Personally I think anything smaller than 6 shot should be illegal for turkey hunting.

We're not shooting Quail or Dove guys.


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 22, 2009)

Here's one reason I stopped shooting the small shot (7 Heavy shot). 

A couple years back I had this gobbler that literally drove me nutts for about a week. He frequented a small pasture about a 100 yards wide.....that particular morning I approached from the south. I owled....from his gobble I could tell he was roosted just off the north side. I eased around to the southwest corner and got set down. 

This day was no different than the previous times I'd hunted him...he put on quite a show. About 40 yards out was a big Fire Ant hill...I gave myself the okay to blast at the ant hill.  

He came just behind the hill....I held fire. Some hens showed up on the north side of the field and he slowly made his way towards them.  

A short time and a few calls later they worked back my way....to where he was just the other side of the ant hill again 
The hens were between the bird and I so I figure there's no reason to hurry the shot.....(contray to what some say 25 to 30 yards is the best distance to kill a turkey with any shotgun). 

The hens start angling in towards the woods....I'm kinda hid behind a small logg and a shallow depression so I figure I'm okay with the hens.....they came by me at 20 yards or less....the gobbler angles towards the woods hard to my left. (Sometimes I wonder if they know I'm left handed)....any way I'm twisted  as far to the left as I can turn. (I should have swapped shoulders but it was alittle late for that)....I called and tried to stop him but he just kept slowly walking....bOOM....bird down....I'm getting up....birds getting up. He ran and flew. 

Nothing like the feeling is it guys.....

Not one to give up on the gobbler....I was back there the next morning. Well before daylight I was standing 50 yards off the northwest corner of that pasture. I hooted he gobbled about a 100 yards off the northwest corner....I eased in a short distance and set down. After it got light enough to just see good I gave a couple of soft yelps on my trumpet....a hen answered me...and I imediately answered her. I figure I better get ahold of the gun. A han comes flying in and lands about 20 yards in front of me....then another and another and another....then here he comes.  He took about 2 steps then took a load of 4x5x7 Nitro Heavyshot at the base of his neck at about 20 yards......kinda screwed his beard up.  At this point I'm almost sure this is the gobbler I rolled the day before.

After I got home I started to breast him out.....I sliced the breast skin open and grabbed his legs to break them down out of the way like I always do....that's when I felt them. Hundreds of small Hevi-shot pellets just under the skin in his legs. I got my breast meat out and then cut the skin open on his legs...there was literally hundreds of small Hevi-shot pellets just under the hide in his leggs. 

You know the little bitty ones that penetrate Tin and are stronger than Cryp'tOnite.

There is no doubt in my mind that if I had been shooting #4 shot that day it would have made up for my mistake in aim and would have broken his leggs and I would've been chasing a different bird that next morning.


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## poorcountrypreacher (Oct 22, 2009)

TC - Nobody else here seems to want to give you a compliment, but I'll say that I like the pattern on your 10 gauge. Its hard to really judge it without a circle for reference, but it looks nice and even. I don't understand using such a small amount of shot in a 10 gauge; are you sure that's not a typo? The Win Supreme 2oz load does over 1350 fps out of my gun. I shot that with #4 shot for years with excellent results, but the kill patterns were only about 16" wide at 40 yds. Seeing the pattern Gadget posted that had a 20" wide kill pattern was one of the reasons I decided to try the TSS.

But I don't understand this:

>>>Personally I think anything smaller than 6 shot should be illegal for turkey hunting.

We're not shooting Quail or Dove guys.<<<

Those Nitro shells that you shot contain shot that will probably run 80% or more smaller than #6. Most people find them quite deadly. Did you lose turkeys with them? 

I agree with you that one should not drop below #6 on lead, but on the HTL, its a different story. 

And the problem you mentioned of the smaller shot making the turkey inedible should be a moot point if the hunter does his part - shoot him in the head and neck. Hang a gobbler from his head and measure from the top of his head to the base of his neck and you'll find that its about 14". That's a pretty big target - aim at his head if he's real close, aim halfway up his neck if he's further. Turkeys shot with #8 TSS are a delight to clean and eat. 

A good day to all.


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## poorcountrypreacher (Oct 22, 2009)

TC - You posted while I was typing, and answered some of my questions. 

We are just gonna have to agree to disagree. That was a good story, but I would have shot the gobbler when he was just behind the ant hill and killed him deader than a doornail. I would have yelped at him and got him to stick his head up so that his entire neck was exposed, aimed halfway up it, and sent him to turkey heaven. The Nitros would have done the job just as well as my TSS or the #4 lead I used to shoot.

I try my best now to never shoot at a moving turkey. A simple yelp with the mouth caller while he is walking will usually stop him. Sometimes they are in a strut and a yelp won't bring him out - I use a rabbit squeal if that happens. Of course, the gun is on him when I do that.

I get really mad at myself when I find shot in a turkey's body. It tells me I didn't do my job. 

Glad you were able to kill the turkey the 2nd day. He probably would have died a miserable death if you hadn't.

But thanks for sharing the story.


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## hawglips (Oct 22, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> I get gOOse bumps thinking about trying to eat a turkey hit with that....that's why I stopped shooting Nitros.



TC, you just don't get it.  I'm trying to help you understand.  The #9s don't remain inside the turkey's meat.  They go through it.

You can't eat something that isn't in there.

And last time I checked, Nitros used wimpy 12g/cc shot in their shells, not 18g/cc shot.


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## poorcountrypreacher (Oct 22, 2009)

Billy - I just realized I told you wrong on what choke I was using with those Win Ext Range #5s - It was a .665 Kicks and not a PG. I got better patterns with #4 lead on the Kicks than the PG too. Kicks does not recommend their chokes with any HTL shot except the one you tried. 

TC's story reminds me of something I decided long ago - the distance you shoot a turkey isn't nearly as important as the bird's posture and position. I only want to shoot at a standing turkey with his head up and neck extended. That is when he is most vulnerable, and you shouldn't put any shot in his body at all if he is in this position. The further away he is, the lower you aim - within reason, of course. If he is 25 yds, just shoot him in the head. If he is 40, aim halfway up his neck and the pattern will cover his vulnerable area.

No matter what call I'm using to call the turkey, I always keep a mouth caller in my mouth. Use it to stop the turkey and make him stretch that neck up and give yourself the best chance at a clean kill. I keep a trumpet on a string around my neck, but it doesn't work for this, nor does a box or slate. If you can't use a mouth call well enough to call turkeys, it still is invaluable for getting yourself an easy shot.

Which has  nothing to do with the question on the thread. Sorry, Billy.


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## hawglips (Oct 22, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> Personally I think anything smaller than 6 shot should be illegal for turkey hunting.
> 
> We're not shooting Quail or Dove guys.



TC, we're talking 18g/cc here.  How much of it have you shot?  How did it pattern for you?  How did it penetrate compared to what you are now shooting? 

I don't recall you ever talking about the TSS you have shot and tested, and compared.  If you haven't, just how do you know so much about the TSS shot? 

And why would anybody make this #9 shot illegal for turkeys, when it will kill a turkey at 90 yds?  Wouldn't it make more sense to make shot that doesn't penetrate as well, and has sparse patterns illegal, instead of making the superior shot illegal?  If somebody is worried about crippling, etc., they ought to make #4 lead illegal instead.  It is a much inferior turkey load.

And you are sending mixed signals here.  Which is it that you object to?  The long-range killing capability of the pixie dust, or that it's too small so it's only good for little teeny critters like quail and dove??  

I am scratching my head here.  Is it too powerful, or not powerful enough??  You are arguing both points. So, pardon my confusion on where it is you actually stand. 

TC, are you sure you don't have some alterior motive for bashing TSS so?  What are you afraid of here?  There's got to be something.  You're arguing both sides of the fence on the pixie dust.  It makes me wonder...

By the way, you look real good over there in those pictures on the Nitro site.  You guys must be pretty tight...


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## hawglips (Oct 22, 2009)

ticeman said:


> Here's what I always found to be interesting in these forums i belong to: people have cooked up handloads over the years that have allegedly put out better patterns than Nitro's, in whatever configuration, and yet, no one has ever had the BALLS to go into business for themselves and offer better CS than Nitro (not hard to do, let's be honest) and go head to head. Ironically, they make claims like "nitro's will be obsolete" or "nitro's are done".



Tice, whoa there!!  Hold on fella.  Slowly back away from the edge, take a deep breath, and think what you are saying.  It sounds like you are questioning my honesty.  That hurts dude.

I don't know about everybody else's handloads with the hevishot, but there are a few things that I do know.

I know that the 18g/cc handloads are in a whole different league, above and beyond Nitros.  It isn't close.  It's just physics.  Nothing more.  As far as performance goes, Nitro Ray has been top of the heap for a long time. But he's only loading 12g/cc shot.  That's why his shells are obsolete, as far as I and anybody else loading the 18g/cc shot is concerned.  The minute he takes the plunge into 18g/cc shot, he'll be right back up there.  But until he does, laws of the physical universe are working against him.  He can't help it. Neither can I.

I also know there is a very limited market for $10 or $12  turkey loads.  How much you figure Nitro Ray would charge for a 2 oz. load of 18g/cc shot if he is already charging $6 a shell using much cheaper Hevishot?  And how many people you figure would buy them at those prices?  

If you think there is a viable market for $12 18g/cc turkey loads, and you want to put up the money to start the business and keep it running, please send me a PM.  My current business is looking bleak for next year, and if you are hiring, I'd like to be considered as your shell development man.    



ticeman said:


> Furthermore, instead of seeing how far or how bad your shells are, why dontcha learn to be more patient and become a better caller and you can kill em with a .410 at 10-15 yrds, like I will do next spring, it's a MUCH bigger rush.



Maybe I need to come up to get some turkey hunting lessons from you.  
And some calling lessons.  Sounds like you figure you can teach me a lot.  How much are you charging?  

Tice, it is indeed a rush to walk up on a target at 80 yds and see that your pattern is as good as folks who shoot #4 lead have at 40 yds.  After all the time, money and effort I put into the idea and actually developing the shells, making that discovery was a rush.  You can bash it all you want to.  But I admit it is very satisfying to see the fruits of one's own handiwork like that.  If you've never experienced that rush, give it a try.  

Killing a turkey at 10 or 15 yds is a much more intense rush than seeing those eye popping pattens and penetration.  But it goes away a lot quicker than the satisfaction of your work does.  At least to me.  The satisfaction of the accomplishment stays with me longer than the adrenalin rush.

By the way, if you want to have a friendly contest on who can kill the most turkeys with a .410 next year, let me know.  It might be fun!  I was already thinking of trying to get a .410 grand slam -- if it's even legal.  But your challenge may spur me to go ahead and just hunt with the .410 next year regardless....


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## hawglips (Oct 22, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> I'm really not into pellet counting anymore...here's pic of my 10 ga. at 40 yards with 1 & 5/8 oz of number 4 shot. It's a handload that chronographs 1310 fps...this is on a greased steel patterning plate. The pipe in the middle is about 2 inches.



TC, that's a nice even #4 lead pattern.  If that pipe in the middle is two inches, then it looks like the plate is about 36" square.  Does that sound right?

Based on my count, it looks like every one of your pellets in the 1-5/8 oz load, plus a few more, hit the 36" plate.  It looks like you got 50 or 60 pellets in the middle 10".   That's a little lower than what I get with my gun and factory #4 lead shells, but I don't think it's off too much.

I would never use that for turkey hunting, but that's just me.


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## hawglips (Oct 22, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> After I got home I started to breast him out.....I sliced the breast skin open and grabbed his legs to break them down out of the way like I always do....that's when I felt them. Hundreds of small Hevi-shot pellets just under the skin in his legs. I got my breast meat out and then cut the skin open on his legs...there was literally hundreds of small Hevi-shot pellets just under the hide in his leggs.
> 
> You know the little bitty ones that penetrate Tin and are stronger than Cryp'tOnite.



I did not realize Nitro was using TSS shot??

I thought he was using those hevishot 7s(8s, 9s, 10s, etc)?


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## MKW (Oct 22, 2009)

*???*

Hal,
 Is the TSS more true to size??

Mike


----------



## poorcountrypreacher (Oct 22, 2009)

Mike - The actual TSS product is truer to size than anything else I've ever checked. There is other 18g/cc shot that is very consistent in size, but doesn't match up with our numbering system perfectly. But they are all very round and completely different from hevi-shot.


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## hawglips (Oct 22, 2009)

I've purchased the 18g/cc both ways.  The stuff I've seen in the last three shipments is very uniform in size.  And that's the way TSS sells it.

But I've used a batch that was like hevishot, just not as extreme in size variation.  It performed very well, by the way.  And I'm not sure it isn't just as good, or perhaps better for some purposes.


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 22, 2009)

hawglips said:


> TC, that's a nice even #4 lead pattern.  If that pipe in the middle is two inches, then it looks like the plate is about 36" square.  Does that sound right?
> 
> Based on my count, it looks like every one of your pellets in the 1-5/8 oz load, plus a few more, hit the 36" plate.  It looks like you got 50 or 60 pellets in the middle 10".   That's a little lower than what I get with my gun and factory #4 lead shells, but I don't think it's off too much.
> 
> I would never use that for turkey hunting, but that's just me.



Works pretty good for me....


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## bnew17 (Oct 22, 2009)

Billy try a Indian Creek Choke


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## hawglips (Oct 22, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> Works pretty good for me....



Were you shooting those loads when you missed 6 in one year?  I may have missed you answering that elsewhere, and if I did, sorry. 

The last time I saw #4 lead shot at a turkey was three seasons ago.  My buddy was shooting 1-7/8 oz. of #4s.  We heard the bird gobbling WAY up the mountain that morning, and so we took off climbing and clawing up through the cursed rhododenrum thicket trying to get to him.  I don't usually sweat too bad, but I was soaked by the time we got up there and found a place to set up.   I got the bird to fly across a narrow canyon to us, and he came in real pretty.  When he got to about 30 yds., I gave my buddy the go ahead to shoot.  BOOM!!  The turkey turned around and started walking... BOOM!!!  He took off running now... BOOM!!!  And he flew off back across the canyon.

With #4 lead, the patterns are pretty sparse, so I just don't like them when there are so many better options.


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 22, 2009)

There's alot you seem to miss Hawglip


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## trkyhntr70 (Oct 22, 2009)

billy673 said:


> what oz load 3-1/2's ya shooting ?



Billy,
The 2.25 .oz load is more effecent in most guns, But with the 835 and that Kicks .680 the H517 with the bigger payload may be pretty nasty.


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## CuttinNrunnin (Oct 22, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> There's alot you seem to miss Hawglip



I seem to have missed it too. Would you mind answering it again?


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 22, 2009)

Here ya gO....

Was perusing the TSS website and noticed that they had ballistic gelatin penetration depths listed for TSS #5-3.45â€�, #7-2.33â€�, and #8-1.85â€� at 50 yards.

http://www.tungstensupershot.com/pages/technical.asp 

Ballistic gelatin penetration depths found for lead  http://www.css.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/cprc/tr/tr-1998-03.pdf 

â€œLead Shot Penetration in 10% Ordnance Gelatinâ€� were #4-3.44â€� and #7 ½-2.09â€� at 55 yards.

This data appears to clearly refute the claim that, â€œTSS pellets penetrate similar to lead pellets that are four to five sizes larger.â€�


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## hawglips (Oct 22, 2009)

TC, does this above post mean that you are you abandoning the side of your argument that claims the TSS shot has ridiculous and unethical killing range, and is only for those that can't call them in close?  

From what you just posted above, it seems you are now claiming that #7-1/2 lead is superior to #8 TSS in penetration, and that #4 lead is superior to #5 TSS in penetration?  Is that what you are saying? 

You keep arguing both sides of that, so I'd like to know which argument you are going to persist in, and which one you are abandoning.  A reasonable and/or sincere person cannot have it both ways -- TSS can not be both ridiculous and unethical because of it's long range capability, and only for those that can't call them in -- AND at the same time be no better than lead, as you seem to be saying above.

Please tell me which one it's going to be, so I can know how to approach helping you understand this.  Is TSS no better than lead at long range lethality, or is it ridiculously and unethically more long range than lead?

Because of the contradictory arguments you're making, I get the feeling you are just interested in arguing for ego's sake, rather than actually understanding.


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 22, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> Here ya gO....
> 
> Was perusing the TSS website and noticed that they had ballistic gelatin penetration depths listed for TSS #5-3.45â€�, #7-2.33â€�, and #8-1.85â€� at 50 yards.
> 
> ...



TSS shOOters read it and weep....


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## hawglips (Oct 22, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> TSS shOOters read it and weep....




You are killing me TC!  I am weeping alright!!  I haven't laughed so hard in a long time!  

Now, let me get this straight.  You are saying that lead penetrates just as well, no better (based on what you posted above and are asking others to weep about), than TSS??

Is that what you are saying TC?  Please just yes or no.  That's all I want to hear.  Simple question, simple answer.  Two choices -- YES or NO.


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## Newman (Oct 22, 2009)

Give me an answer, just yes or no.  Are you trying to tell me that a #8 or #9 TSS which is only 50% more dense than lead, but I am sure weighs a lot less than a #4 lead, will penetrate many times better than lead...


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## hawglips (Oct 22, 2009)

TC, you're dodging my straight-forward, easy, simple questions.

I'd like you to answer the one above in post number 54, and the one I've asked multiple times now, most recently in post number 52.

I ask them, because it's about time to come clean about where you stand.  Not jump from one point to the opposite one.  It's all very fishy.   Come clean.

Where do you stand?  Is lead as lethal as TSS?  Or is TSS unethical and so ridiculously long range that only those that can't call in a bird use it?

You've pushed both points with equal ardor.

Which one is it?  Where do you stand?


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## hawglips (Oct 22, 2009)

Newman said:


> Give me an answer, just yes or no.  Are you trying to tell me that a #8 or #9 TSS which is only 50% more dense than lead, but I am sure weighs a lot less than a #4 lead, will penetrate many times better than lead...



Newman.  It is good to see you giving TC a hand.  He is struggling here.

No, I am not trying to tell you that a #8 or #9 TSS which is 50% denser than lead, will penetrate many times better than lead.  No, not at all.

What #9 TSS WILL do though, is penetrate better than #4 copper plated lead.  

What do you say Newman?  Are you joining TC in saying that you actually believe that lead of the same or similar size will penetrate better than TSS?


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## CuttinNrunnin (Oct 22, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> Here ya gO....
> 
> Was perusing the TSS website and noticed that they had ballistic gelatin penetration depths listed for TSS #5-3.45”, #7-2.33”, and #8-1.85” at 50 yards.
> 
> ...



Hey TC, whats better an apple or an orange?


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## CuttinNrunnin (Oct 22, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> Here ya gO....
> 
> Was perusing the TSS website and noticed that they had ballistic gelatin penetration depths listed for TSS #5-3.45”, #7-2.33”, and #8-1.85” at 50 yards.
> 
> ...



hey TC, whats better 2.09" penetration in 10% ordnance gelatin, or 2.33" penetration in "Snow geese, lesser Canadas, large ducks" ?


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## Newman (Oct 22, 2009)

hawglips said:


> What do you say Newman?  Are you joining TC in saying that you actually believe that lead of the same or similar size will penetrate better than TSS?



No- but I will say that what he posted is probably right.  The post says TSS #5-3.45” penetration and lead #4-3.44”

So one size smaller for TSS penetrates marginally better than a size larger lead.  That sounds more realistic.  Remember, it was Magdood that was saying #9 TSS penetrated both sides of a PVC pipe at 80 yards, when #6 lead bounced off at either the same distance (80 yards) or 40 yards- I can't remember off the top of my head.

I know you keep saying it is simple physics- and your completely right.  But your _Math_ doesn't add up.

Lead at 12 g/cc, TSS at 18 g/cc.  The difference is 6 or 50% more dense.  Density is Mass/volume, so how much something weighs is directly related to the density.  What is the weight difference between, say a #4 lead, and a #9 TSS?  I bet the #9 is less than 50% the weight of the lead #4...


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## CuttinNrunnin (Oct 22, 2009)

BTW, posting this website ( http://www.tungstensupershot.com/pages/technical.asp#20gauge) , is quite detrimental to your argument that lead is even close to TSS of similar size (regarding penetration).


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## CuttinNrunnin (Oct 22, 2009)

newman said:


> no- but i will say that what he posted is probably right.  The post says tss #5-3.45” penetration and lead #4-3.44”
> 
> so one size smaller for tss penetrates marginally better than a size larger lead.  That sounds more realistic.  Remember, it was magdood that was saying #9 tss penetrated both sides of a pvc pipe at 80 yards, when #6 lead bounced off at either the same distance (80 yards) or 40 yards- i can't remember off the top of my head.
> 
> ...



they are being shot into 2 different things! Its like comparing apples to oranges.


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## short stop (Oct 22, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> Here's one reason I stopped shooting the small shot (7 Heavy shot).
> 
> A couple years back I had this gobbler that literally drove me nutts for about a week. He frequented a small pasture about a 100 yards wide.....that particular morning I approached from the south. I owled....from his gobble I could tell he was roosted just off the north side. I eased around to the southwest corner and got set down.
> 
> ...



  20 -40  yrds  and  you shot a bird  at his  feet ?   Most people aim   at the head ...  you nicked a bird  and you blame   the  shell and not your   shooting ablity  .. My son hes 14  .. he  does that alot too ..Its ok   

 I shoot  20  ga's     and the day  I hit a bird in the  feet / legs   with   Nitro, heavy  13 ,TSS   type  ammo  at    20-40  yrds   is the  day I   ''aim there '' .
      I  have  dug  enuf   shot out of birds   in sizes  from #4,5,6s  in lead , copper   that I did not shoot  to kill the bird   to fill a shot glass while skinning birds  down  to  get  the wing bones out .     Ive never  dug  any  Heavy   type shot out yet .. It goes right thru em at  20 -  40 yrds .


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## Newman (Oct 22, 2009)

Let's try and keep this simple than.  

How far would you shoot a #9 *lead* shot?  Maybe 30 yards at a turkey?  Or maybe only 20 yards?

Since TSS is 50% denser- in this case heavier because the volume is the exact same- you should only shoot a #9 TSS 45 yards max (30 X 1.5), since we are talking same size shot.

This is where I don't understand the 80-90 yard talk (or even 60 for that matter)


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## short stop (Oct 22, 2009)

Newman ,
 I d shoot one at 60-65  yrds   with my 20 Ga   # 9s  TSS .  1.25 oz of shot ..
  something    Id never do with lead or  copper .
 Do I need to , NO ..  Can I  YES 


 You could  probably solve  your  ? /s  by  shooting some and testing them .  On paper  with   sheet metal backing .. 
   Metal  tech is ever changing 
  stone age ,  Bronze age , Iron age -- History 
   The  same  can be fashioned  in Turkey loads   from the   Lead , Cooper , Heavy /TSS   history  over the  last 60 yrs .


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## icdedturkes (Oct 22, 2009)

I dont have a dog in the fight and have found this to be comical. 

But I have one question, if we are using these small shot and sending tons of them down range as opposed to larger shot, if one happens to jerk the trigger or similar isnt their better chance for one or more of these "flyers" to cripple the turkey based on the same premise more shot increases the percentage of hitting the spine and neck column?


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## Newman (Oct 22, 2009)

short stop said:


> Newman ,
> I d shoot one at 60-65  yrds   with my 20 Ga   # 9s  TSS .  1.25 oz of shot ..
> something    Id never do with lead or  copper .
> Do I need to , NO ..  Can I  YES




But see, your math once again doesn't add up.  That means that you would take a 40-45 yard shot with #9 lead, which is something you guys say you would hardly do with #4 lead


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## short stop (Oct 22, 2009)

No I would not  w #9  lead  that would be a joke .. why  do you keep  bring lead #9s  int o the picture ...   its a  diff  metal  with diff propertys ...  and its  not math its   actual physical  testing ..not  a   rocklet science  Newman  ..  #4s  dont hold  a pattern beacuse they   space out and the pattern breaks  down past 40 --something the #9TSS  doesnt  do at   that range..

 Something Ive done  obvios you have not ..Not trying to poke you  but  Ive done it .. You need to put the calculator down and beak out the shells   and paper ..
    Something   alot of us have done for our own personal  benefit and knowledge .

 Your beating a dead horse friend ...   spend a few buck$  like   the rest of us  and try  em ..  if not your  sitting  stirring  and being the uneducated  one .  If you dont like the results ---  dont use em .   About that  simple .


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 22, 2009)

Maybe one day I'll be as good shOt as you ShortstOp....

I gave the examples I did because I'm smart enough to realize I'm not perfect....yer not perfect and things don't always work out perfect in the turkey woods. 

One thing you guys did prove to me is TSS is great for hard things....and for shooting at tin.


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## hawglips (Oct 22, 2009)

CuttinNrunnin said:


> BTW, posting this website ( http://www.tungstensupershot.com/pages/technical.asp#20gauge) , is quite detrimental to your argument that lead is even close to TSS of similar size (regarding penetration).



Cuttin, I do not believe for one second that TC actually believes what he insinuated in his post.  He is not that clueless.  

That's why I'm asking for a straight yes or no answer.  He is just trying to be a keyboard hero, IMO.  He has argued that TSS's long range capabilities is unethical and ridiculous, and "only for those that cain't do their part."  He even put that in his signature line as a cut on those that shoot TSS, until the mods made him remove it.  And then out of the other side of his keyboard, he argues that TSS penetrates no better than lead.  So, since no one can possibly believe that TSS is unethical due to it's long range capabilities, and at the same time, that it is no better than lead, I am trying to get him to publicly make a stand on one or the other.  But that would be admitting he was wrong on the one or the other, so... the chances are slim to nil we'll get an answer, IMO.   

But there is NO WAY any rational, experienced person -- a person who is old enought to have experienced the waterfowl regs changes from lead to steel and seen the drastic differences and challenges that presented -- a person who is old enough to have seen how hevishot changed things -- there is NO WAY that person actually believes what he insinuated in that post -- that #7.5 lead (11g/cc) penetrates better at 55 yards than #8 TSS (18g/cc) does at 50 yards.   NO WAY!  

And I don't believe Newman believes it either.   There is no way folks who know why steel is such an inferior pellet to lead in penetation (though it's only *25% denser*), and folks who understand why lead is inferior to hevishot in penetration (though it's only *9% denser*) -- there is no way such a person would possibly actually believe that a pellet that is *40% denser *(TSS) than another (lead) -- actually penetrates no better.

There is NO WAY either of them believe what they are trying to insinuate.  NO WAY.


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 22, 2009)

icdedturkes said:


> I dont have a dog in the fight and have found this to be comical.
> 
> But I have one question, if we are using these small shot and sending tons of them down range as opposed to larger shot, if one happens to jerk the trigger or similar isnt their better chance for one or more of these "flyers" to cripple the turkey based on the same premise more shot increases the percentage of hitting the spine and neck column?



There's no chance of that happening....they're throwing  magic pick'ses dust.

(I agree it is very comical. )


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 22, 2009)

hawglips said:


> That's why I'm asking for a straight yes or no answer.  He is just trying to be a keyboard hero, IMO.  He has argued that TSS's long range capabilities is unethical and ridiculous, and "only for those that cain't do their part."
> 
> He even put that in his signature line as a cut on those that shoot TSS, until the mods made him remove it.  There is
> 
> NO WAY either of them believe what they are trying to insinuate.  NO WAY.



It's easy to see who the key board TSS hero is.....I was asked if I would remove it because it upset some guys egos. I took it out trying to be nice. 

I posted the links showing you the penetration tests on lead shot and TSS shot but for some reason you can't or don't want to face the facts.

Fact is I don't care what you shoot....but I care that some inexperienced hunter could read this bull and then believe he can go out and have instant kills with magic TSS pixie dust (7,8 or 9 size shot) at 80 or 90 yards. 

I truly hope the state Game and Fish commisions have enough sense to ban these small sizes for turkey hunting before you guys blind some inocent turkey hunter a mile or more away.


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## short stop (Oct 22, 2009)

I just ponder on  how many  dead birds  will   say  the Pixee  dust got me    in 2010   ....   Im sure there will  be   quite a few   for myself  between  the Fla  line  clear up to  Ky ..I pray 
Providin I dont miss ..  and yes TC that  has happend  before  but thats  why God made automatics     maybe we need to start another thread on  the  need or  use  of  more than 1 shot   ..


----------



## hawglips (Oct 22, 2009)

icdedturkes said:


> I dont have a dog in the fight and have found this to be comical.
> 
> But I have one question, if we are using these small shot and sending tons of them down range as opposed to larger shot, if one happens to jerk the trigger or similar isnt their better chance for one or more of these "flyers" to cripple the turkey based on the same premise more shot increases the percentage of hitting the spine and neck column?



Well, if you've got 500 - 600 pellets in a 20" circle, with almost no flyers (another benefit of TSS) like everybody who is shooting it does, you have to miss it pretty bad not to get part of that 20" + swarm of nasty pellets on the turkey's head and neck.  

On the other hand, with #4 lead, you can be dead on target, and still just cripple him at 40 yds due to such a sparse pattern with more holes than pattern, and missing his head and neck completely, but hitting him with pellets elsewhere.  Like with the pattern Frank showed us -- it's nice and even, but it's mostly holes, with only 225 or so pellets in the entire 36" square.  Lot's of places for a turkey's head and neck to be missed, but other places to be hit.  Perhaps that partly explains his 6 misses in one year.  I don't know.

You guys need to quit busting on the stuff, and test it out yourself if you don't believe what everybody who shoots it is unanimously saying.   Try to find someone who has personally seen what TSS will do that will join you in bashing it.  Let's see if you can find such a person.

It gets very tiresome to keep explaining to guys who have never shot it, but argue ice age type arguments against it anyway.   They have never shot it, they have never done the head to head, side to side comparisons.  They have never laid eyes on the stuff.  Yet, they bash those that HAVE done the comparisons, and HAVE shot it.  The bash those that report what it does, and share the results of their comparisons.  Instead of thanking folks for sharing the information, they attack it, as if it somehow threatens their manhood or something.   And then in spite of having ZERO experience with it, they will argue till the cows come home against it.  Now someone explain to me the logic to that.


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## hawglips (Oct 22, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> I posted the links showing you the penetration tests on lead shot and TSS shot but for some reason you can't or don't want to face the facts.



You mean the one from Canada that is using a totally different ballistics gel?

Is that the one?  The one that shows the "facts" that 7.5 lead penetrates even better than #8s TSS?

Is that the one?

Tell me, do you actually believe that 7.5 lead penetrates better than a pellet 40 - 50% denser, like the "facts" showed on those links?

Do you really beleive that "fact" Frank?

Yes or no.  Simple answer.  Yes.  No.  Which one is it?



Turkey Comander said:


> Fact is I don't care what you shoot....but I care that some inexperienced hunter could read this bull and then believe he can go out and have instant kills with magic TSS pixie dust (7,8 or 9 size shot) at 80 or 90 yards.







Turkey Comander said:


> I truly hope the state Game and Fish commisions have enough sense to ban these small sizes for turkey hunting before you guys blind some inocent turkey hunter a mile or more away.



I truly hope the Game and Fish commissions have enough sense to pay no attention to folks who bash something they know nothing at all about.  That would be very foolish of them.

And what is it Frank.  Yes or no Frank.

Which is it?  

Simple question.  How about an answer?  Do you really believe the "facts" you posted that lead penetrates as well as TSS?

I know the answer Frank.  I know you don't believe it.  But you post it and continue to push it anyway.

Because you are just trying to be nice, I'm sure.


----------



## icdedturkes (Oct 22, 2009)

hawglips said:


> \
> You guys need to quit busting on the stuff, and test it out yourself if you don't believe what everybody who shoots it is unanimously saying.   Try to find someone who has personally seen what TSS will do that will join you in bashing it.  Let's see if you can find such a person.


Not busting on it, as stated dont have a dog in the fight. Just expressing my main concern when switching to Nitros last year.


----------



## Newman (Oct 23, 2009)

short stop said:


> No I would not  w #9  lead  that would be a joke .. why  do you keep  bring lead #9s  int o the picture ...   its a  diff  metal  with diff propertys ...  and its  not math its   actual physical  testing ..not  a   rocklet science  Newman  ..  #4s  dont hold  a pattern beacuse they   space out and the pattern breaks  down past 40 --something the #9TSS  doesnt  do at   that range..
> 
> Something Ive done  obvios you have not ..Not trying to poke you  but  Ive done it .. You need to put the calculator down and beak out the shells   and paper ..
> Something   alot of us have done for our own personal  benefit and knowledge .
> ...



No- I won't try them simply because my regulations say shot size from #4 to #6.  I don't feel like going to jail for shooting a turkey load.

I still won't believe a #9 shot has enough downrange power to use on turkeys, and I get a good enough pattern with 6's that I don't need to shoot something the size of a grain of sand.

BUT- if it will just absolutely rip through body and bone like you guys say it will, isn't that slightly dangerous.

"Journal of Trauma examined 1,345 hunting-related shooting incidents that occurred in Pennsylvania from 1987-1999."

That says over 1300 shooting accidents in Pa alone in just 12 years.  Now true, they weren't all turkey hunting accidents- but the article said that turkey hunting had the highest rate.


----------



## short stop (Oct 23, 2009)

Newman said:


> No- I won't try them simply because my regulations say shot size from #4 to #6.  I don't feel like going to jail for shooting a turkey load.
> 
> I still won't believe a #9 shot has enough downrange power to use on turkeys, and I get a good enough pattern with 6's that I don't need to shoot something the size of a grain of sand.
> 
> ...



   well  why keep  banging away at threads  if you are never  going to shoot the load  and dogging a  load  merely on your  ''beliefs''  which are based  with no facts  . 

Columbus    found the new world   when    everyone was telling him the world was flat ..  He proved them wrong   no ? 

  1 min  you say it #9s  wont  shoot  that far and have killing power  downrange .
   then  in the next  sentence   you  are trying to  drag hunted  related  shootings  from  PA   into the mix     from 1987-1999   when  the load ''TSS '' wasnt even around  the shell market in those time frames ..   I dont get it ...    whats the connection   your trying to make  here  ?  

 Theres  a   reason why   seasoned   turkey hunters  and waterfolwers  are  starting to  admire this load  over the  last couple yrs ..  and it isnt    for    the   close range 20-30 yrd  killing power ..


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## hawglips (Oct 23, 2009)

Frank and Newman,

I'm really worried about having any income for next year, and I woke up in the middle of the night with the idea that you guys might be the answer to my prayers.

Frank, since you have publicly stated multiple times that it's a "fact" that 7.5 lead penetrates at 55 yards better than TSS #8s at 50 yards, I'd like to place a $100,000 wager with you on it.  I say $100,000 because I know how I can come up with that much by myself and won't have to share your $100,000 with anyone else.  But if you want to up it past that amount, I'm still in, because I am pretty sure I can cover your bet by borrowing the money from folks here on Woodies who would like a piece of the action.   

You name the place.  We'll load up identical shells -- one with #7.5s in lead, one with #8s in TSS.  (Except we'll have to put about a 1/2" of filler under the TSS shot since it's so dadgum heavy it's going to only take up about half the space that the lead takes up.  And we'll need some sort of double wad or mylar wrap for the TSS to keep it from damaging you gun's barrel.)  We'll then let an independent Woodies rep shoot both of them at the ballistics gelatin of your choice (or any other object that we can measure the difference in penetration -- again, you choose) -- the lead 7.5s at 55 yards, the TSS 8s at 50 yards, and, we'll have the official representative from Woodies measure the penetration of each one.   

Do we have a deal?

And Newman, then whatever amount TC agrees to wager, I'll double that amount and wager with you based on what you said you believe -- that #4 lead penetrates like #5 TSS.   We'll do it right after I take Frank's money.   We'll do it the same way, loading the shells identical and all, except for the filler we'll need for the TSS since it'll only take up about half the space that the lead takes up. 

Deal?


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 23, 2009)

hawglips said:


> Simple question.  How about an answer?  Do you really believe the "facts" you posted that lead penetrates as well as TSS?
> 
> I know the answer Frank.  I know you don't believe it.  But you post it and continue to push it anyway.
> 
> Because you are just trying to be nice, I'm sure.



*You don't want an answer...you want someone to agree with your non-sense*.  

I give you an example of why and you just try and trash me. But here goes I'll give it anyway.

With a arrow killing power is all about penetration....with a projectile it's about energy impacted on the target.

Your claiming a solid porojectile will kill better than a softer projectile that can impact more of it's energy on what ever it hits....instead of just zipping on through. It's just not true.

Soft pointed ammo kills better than a solid...that why solids are out lawed to hunt with....because they don't impact as much energy on what they hit.

You know why all Military ammo has to be solid ?...because of the Geneva Convention (signed I think prior to WW I). 

It's a fact that a solid projectile doesn't destroy tissue in a soldiers arm or leg like a softer lead bullet will of the same velosity. 

Getting hit with a little 8 or 9 TSS shot and trying to compare it to a #4 lead pellet is like comparing getting stuck with an ice pic to getting hit with a ball pean hammer.

Killing animals with bullets/pellets is about impacting the  energy of the bullet/pellet on the animal not poking holes in it...

It just doesn't work out as good with a solid and that's a fact wiether you want to believe it or not.


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 23, 2009)

hawglips said:


> Well, if you've got 500 - 600 pellets in a 20" circle, with almost no flyers (another benefit of TSS) like everybody who is shooting it does, you have to miss it pretty bad not to get part of that 20" + swarm of nasty pellets on the turkey's head and neck.
> 
> 
> Instead of thanking folks for sharing the information, they attack it, as if it somehow threatens their manhood or something.   And then in spite of having ZERO experience with it, they will argue till the cows come home against it.  Now someone explain to me the logic to that.




If you got 500 or 600 pellets in a 20 inch circle how are you going to avoid putting a couple hundred in the breast of a gobbler ?

My argument is because of your 90 yard kill claims with your mAgic fairy dust (small 8 or 9 size shot) 

It has nothing to do with TSS, Hevi-shot or lead....just the fAiry dust.


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 23, 2009)

hawglips said:


> Frank, since you have publicly stated multiple times that it's a "fact" that 7.5 lead penetrates at 55 yards better than TSS #8s at 50 yards,
> 
> I'd like to place a $100,000 wager with you on it.



I never stated that....I could careless if it does or not. I'm not ever shooting a turkey with shot sizes designed for quail or dove.

As far as the wager gOes....I might be willing bet with you. 

I got 10 bucks says yer head is harder than TSS shot.


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## hawglips (Oct 23, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> If you got 500 or 600 pellets in a 20 inch circle how are you going to avoid putting a couple hundred in the breast of a gobbler ?
> 
> My argument is because of your 90 yard kill claims with your mAgic fairy dust (small 8 or 9 size shot)
> 
> It has nothing to do with TSS, Hevi-shot or lead....just the fAiry dust.



PM me if you are going to man up and accept my wager.  I won't be responding to any more of your contradictory dodges and bragadacio.  I'm done.  If I don't hear from you, I'll take it as admission that you don't believe the "facts" you are trying to sell.

Also, PM if you are ever going to man up and answer my questions on #52 and #54.  If I dont' hear from you, my opinion of what you are all about here won't change.


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## ticeman (Oct 23, 2009)

This is hilarious thread, I'd be willing to bet a 12 pack that neither one of you have a $100K to bet, LOL! ----.


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 23, 2009)

I bet I could come up with 10 bucks....


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## hawglips (Oct 23, 2009)

ticeman said:


> This is hilarious thread, I'd be willing to bet a 12 pack that neither one of you have a $100K to bet, LOL! ----.



Tice, the bet is open to you too.   I know you've got the money laying around... 

And if you want to push it up above $100k, I'm confident I can raise the additional amount from folks who wouldn't mind sharing in the take.


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## poorcountrypreacher (Oct 23, 2009)

THE COMANDER SHOOTS HENS!!!!!??????

Seeing that picture of his dead hen literally made me sick. I was just starting to think that I could look up to him as one of my heroes, and then I find out he is a hen-killer. It would be like finding out Santa Claus has a boyfriend. 

I would never shoot a hen myself under any conditions, but I can understand when other amateurs like me do it where its legal. But a Living Legend who shoots hens?????

Its just more than I can bear. Oh, the humanity!!


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## hawglips (Oct 23, 2009)

poorcountrypreacher said:


> THE COMANDER SHOOTS HENS!!!!!??????
> 
> Seeing that picture of his dead hen literally made me sick. I was just starting to think that I could look up to him as one of my heroes, and then I find out he is a hen-killer. It would be like finding out Santa Claus has a boyfriend.



Preacher, I was wonderering how many more hens were "missed" in order to get that dead one in a picture?


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 23, 2009)

I hope to shoot a few more hens before long.


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## CuttinNrunnin (Oct 23, 2009)

hawglips said:


> Preacher, I was wonderering how many more hens were "missed" in order to get that dead one in a picture?



LOLOLOL. I know... theyre like half the size of a gobbler. So if he killed 7 gobs and missed 6 one year, I would guess he bags about 1 hen for every 3 he shoots at.


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 23, 2009)

ticeman said:


> This is hilarious thread, I'd be willing to bet a 12 pack that neither one of you have a $100K to bet, LOL! ----.




You want in on the 10 dollar bet ?


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## CuttinNrunnin (Oct 23, 2009)

hawglips said:


> Tice, the bet is open to you too.   I know you've got the money laying around...
> 
> And if you want to push it up above $100k, I'm confident I can raise the additional amount from folks who wouldn't mind sharing in the take.



I call dibs on the first amount of action being sold.


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 24, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> If you got 500 or 600 pellets in a 20 inch circle how are you going to avoid putting a couple hundred in the breast of a gobbler ?




hAwg'lipp could you please answer my question.


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## ticeman (Oct 24, 2009)

> THE COMANDER SHOOTS HENS!!!!!??????




Nothing wrong with shooting hens in the fall where it's legal, for the same reason it's ok to shoot does, population control and one less hen to compete with in the spring. You must not have a fall season? this process is very common up north. But then again, I'm one of those amateurs in question.


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## Magnumdood (Oct 24, 2009)

hawglips said:


> PM me if you are going to man up and accept my wager.  I won't be responding to any more of your contradictory dodges and bragadacio.  I'm done.  If I don't hear from you, I'll take it as admission that you don't believe the "facts" you are trying to sell.
> 
> Also, PM if you are ever going to man up and answer my questions on #52 and #54.  If I dont' hear from you, my opinion of what you are all about here won't change.


*Give up trying to get the Turkey Crippler (shooting at a turkey’s feet??) to take a bet.  I was a member on his board, the Sunny Side (of all silly names), and Sloppy Snood challenged him to a shoot.  Turkey Crippler got to choose the game (Clays, skeet, etc).  The winner was to take both shotguns home.  The caveat was the shotgun had to be worth at least 1K.  Sloppy was going to drive to the Crippler’s home shooting range.  Rather than answer the challenge he chose to ban me from the board.  How about it Turkey Crippler?  You made plenty of fun of HTL shot, like you are here, and Still Shoot competition.  Are you up for Sloppy’s challenge?
*


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 24, 2009)

dOOd as usual you are not being truthfull....you were not banned. 

You left because "you couldn't" or "you didn't want" to post a picture of yourself with a dead turkey/deer or some game animal. 

dOOd....We don't allow trolls that aren't man enough to post a picture of themselves and just come on boards under cloak just to trash people. As far as we know you might be member of PETA.


As far as the 'gOOfy' Sloppy Snood challenge...he wanted me to pay all his expenses down here. I guess I should have then I could've crAcked his bald head in person.


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## Magnumdood (Oct 24, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> dOOd as usual you are not being truthfull....you were not banned.


That's a lie Cox.  When I try to access the site is reads "Sorry, you are banned from viewing this board."





Turkey Comander said:


> You left because "you couldn't" or "you didn't want" to post a picture of yourself with a dead turkey/deer or some game animal.


Another lie Cox; I was banned immediately after I posted Sloppy's challenge.





Turkey Comander said:


> dOOd....We don't allow trolls that aren't man enough to post a picture of themselves and just come on boards under cloak just to trash people. As far as we know you might be member of PETA.


What a crock; YOU don't allow people on the board who back you in a corner and force your hand.  You know no shame Cox; I've never seen anyone lie so freely.






Turkey Comander said:


> As far as the 'gOOfy' Sloppy Snood challenge...he wanted me to pay all his expenses down here. I guess I should have then I could've crAcked his bald head in person.


Another lie; he offered to drive to your location, his gas, his lodging, and beat you at any shooting game you picked.  When I cornered you on it you banned me.  Is it any wonder you wouldn't answer the challenge?  Crippling  6 birds, shooting one in the feet...in the FEET??  Then, compounding each lie with another.  I'll get Sloppy on this thread if he's a member and he'll verify everything I've said.  If he's not a member, he will be as soon as they verify his information.  And now, you threaten him.  Good Cox, good...lie about me and threaten Sloppy.

Soon, there won't be anyplace left for you to hide except for the Sunny Side...


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## Arrow3 (Oct 24, 2009)

ENOUGH!! Y'all take your differnces to PM's if y'all want to talk about it......


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## Turkey Comander (Oct 24, 2009)

I don't have anything to say to the trouble maker.


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## rex upshaw (Oct 24, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> I don't have anything to say to the trouble maker.




pot meet kettle.


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## trkyhntr70 (Oct 24, 2009)

Arrow3 said:


> ENOUGH!! Y'all take your differnces to PM's if y'all want to talk about it......



Thanks Brandon. 
I think its a darn shame you guys have nothing better to do than argue amongst one another.  Pathetic!
Fine example your making. Its no wonder our hunting rights are  slipping away.
Let others shoot what they want and hunt how they want as long as its legal. Just because you shoot  a certain ammo, choke, gun, Does'nt make you a better hunter than any one else.
this thread started as a man simply asking about choke/ loads for his gun...
Grow up boys..


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## billy673 (Oct 31, 2009)

billy673 said:


> -as i've posted on here before i recently bought a new 835 w/ 20" barrel.
> -the 1st time i got to shoot it was with the factory x-factor choke .695 but was at in indoor range at only 25 yds putting 270 +- shot in a 10" circle with Win. ex-rnge hd 2 oz 3-1/2" #5's.
> -thought i was happy enough 1st time out with the Win #5's so i purchased a Kicks gobblin thunder .680 choke.
> -cut out of work early today and off to the range i went...
> ...



well, got an update ... things looking better

-as i stated above with the win hd #5's i averaged 102 shot in a 10' cir with a sparce pattern

-shootin the same kicks .680 & win's i placed 119 pellets once and one shot 1/2 of the paper not worth counting

-switched to a kicks .670 and the same win # 5's and shot a 122, 83 & 96 , avg = 100 , although the 83 count was dead center on a 22" x 28" paper there was shot on the whole paper 

-this time with hevi-13's 2-1/4 oz #6's and a kicks .680, i put 195 & 162 in 10", avg = 179,  looks like most of the shot were in a 22" x 22" circle (approx)

-hevi-13's again, with the kicks .670, shot a 181, 172, & 173, avg = 176 , although a little lower average count in 10" , the consistancy of the pattern was more uniform with less holes and the majority of the spread was a little smaller than with the .680

-i am most comfortable at this point with the hevi's and .670 at 40 yds if my nitro's don't show up in time for me to test with both chokes and against the hevi-13 6's before i try my luck in a few weeks on the fl/ga line for a fall thunder chicken !


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