# Why harrass spawning Reds?



## Gridley

I don't understand something, from an ethical point of view.

Why do some people get joy out of harassing the big Red fish when they are spawning? I know it's catch and release, and I see the delusion that catching them is harmless. We all know a worn out and bleeding fish with human finger slime all over them and their gills is harmed. I also know it's legal, but in my opinion it's not ethical.

The reason they are not slot fish in the first place is to protect the species and provide replenishment of keepers for us to enjoy. Catching one unintentionally and releasing it is one thing, but to target them on a mass and commercial scale just doesn't seem ethical to me. And bragging about it is just abrasive.


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## trippcasey

I personally target fish that end up in grease. But, I can say that if these guys are able to target fish like this responsibly and successfully, then the strength of our fishery is good. I haven't seen a short supply of slot reds for the taking, and I haven't seen any gross misconduct on here with the pictures of fish. What I have seen is guys who know how to handle these fish to ensure they are in the best shape possible when released. These guys are pros, who are just as concerned about the strength of our fishery as you are. They probably know more about it than most, because they dedicate their life to these fish for conservation, not for killing. How do the DRN research fish populations? By fishing. Dont be so quick to judge. I bet if you spent a day with one of the guides that post on here, they would teach you a lot about these fish and how important they are to them.


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## wray912

bedding bass, bluegill, shellcracker, crappie, redbreast...noodling catfish in bedding dens...trolling for spawning kings on the beach...fishing rivers during salmon runs...calling turkeys in the spring...deer huntin the rut...i get what your saying but i bet you've done one of the above...is it the greatest thing for them? probably not, is it detrimental to them? we catch more ever year


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## Uptonongood

Catching and releasing large redfish isn't a negative impact on the fishery particularly if done correctly.  I agree that photos of folks with their hands under the gill covers, hoisting big reds, bodies suspended for pictures in pretty stupid and short sighted.  

Gripping fish by their lower jaw while supporting the fish midway on its abdomen and then lifting minimizes damaged to fish that are going to be released.  Better yet, use circle hooks and take the photos while the fish are still in the water, then release the fish by either removing the hook or cutting the line.

I worked with redfish professionally and they are very tough but not invincible.  

Cherish the fish, respect it, release it and there will always be many more to catch.  And remember, Georgia has come a long way in protecting its marine  sport fish.  Up until the mid-1980's there was no size restriction and no limit on the number of reds you could take home. And, in the 1970's the Director for Coastal Resources was trying to open a gill net fishery on reds and sea trout.  Thankfully, that got shot down.  He was eventually fired.


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## Capt. Richie Lott

@ Gridley --- 

Are you serious? You're taking a cheap shot at the livelihood of hundreds of Guides that take this fishery far more serious than your post relays and definitely more than you understand. 

Here's some fact filled information from my short 30 years of catch and release Bull Redfish Fishing... we've caught many of the same fish year after year. And many times, 10-12 times in a single season. Get your facts straight before you Judge me or my living, pal.  

We take EXTRA good care of these brood stock fish to ensure they're released properly. More than most people know, all the way down to the size of the reels, line and hooks... 

I assume you have a problem with Tarpon Fishing too. It's the same thing. Yep, we're harassing Tarpon all summer long. 

Black Tip Sharks.. Yes, all summer long harassment. 

It's called fishing, man!  Enjoy it and do the right things to learn about the fishery before you post negative crap like this.


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## Capt. Scott Griffin

WOW...where do I start?  I guess I will ask Gridley if he has ever fished with a Guide who has targeted Bull Reds and have you ever observed the way they are handled?  I would suggest to you with your limited saltwater fishing experience that your comments are both shortsighted and abrasive to those of us that target these fish and devote many days on the water trying to make a living.  Calling into question our ethics..do you really want to go there?

We practice responsible catch and release techniques on these fish using methods that have been learned though many years of experience.  Circle hooks are always used by me and all the other guides I work with.  The fish are landed, hook removed and released in a remarkably  minimum amount of time.  

As guides, we all recognize the fact that the handling of these fish impacts the future of our fishery. Guides were instrumental in getting Red Fish listed as a game fish in Georgia so for you to imply that we are not concerned about the fishery is WAY OUT OF LINE.  Us making a decent living requires a healthy fishery.  Most Guides down here rarely even keep a Slot sized red.  In my opinion..keeping fish that have yet to hit spawning age is more detrimental to the species than targeting Bull Reds.  I am not passing judgement on those that choose to keep Reds..just stating my opinion. 

If you call into question Bull Reds being targeted, you also need to question Tarpon, Sails, Sharks..to name a few.  Although you can keep some sharks..personally I do not harvest them. 

Are there some guys fishing for these fish that dont know how to handle them..sure..but as an ethical fisherman I take every opportunity to educate instead of calling into question their ethics and responsiblity as a fisherman.  I would suggest the same to you.


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## Dog Hunter

Capt. Richie Lott said:


> @ Gridley ---
> 
> Are you serious? You're taking a cheap shot at the livelihood of hundreds of Guides that take this fishery far more serious than you're post relays and definitely more than you understand.
> 
> Here's some fact filled information from my short 30 years of catch and release Bull Redfish Fishing... we've caught many of the same fish year after, year. And many times, 10-12 times in a single season. Get your facts straight before you Judge me or my living, pal.
> 
> We take EXTRA good care of these brood stock fish to ensure they're released properly. More than most people know, all the way down to the size of the reels, line and hooks...
> 
> I assume you have a problem with Tarpon Fishing too. It's the same thing. Yep, we're harassing Tarpon all summer long.
> 
> Black Tip Sharks.. Yes, all summer long harassment.
> 
> It's called fishing, man!  Enjoy it and do the right things to learn about the fishery before you post negative crap like this.



And this man means what he says.  Straight up.  He cares about these fish.   As I have been in his boat and seen first hand that he was about to go overboard to help a fish that resurfaced.  He takes a lot of pride in them.  As does his crew.


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## Gridley

I like posts that are conversation starters - don't you? 

At least it's worth thinking about, and reaffirming our respect for the resource.  One way of looking at it is that those breeding stock fish belong to all of us, which is why they are protected by law and we have tasked govt to do the job that we as individuals can't. I look at it as though a guide is getting paid to fondle or have his client fondle a fish that isn't his exclusively, and he does it at his will unilaterally, and righteously. 

For example, if I say that's just not ok with me - it makes no difference, by law, and there is an endless stream of justifications. So, technically, I have no rights in the matter. 

But for the record, I don't like it that breeding stock of a very valuable and in theory protected fish is being fondled by so many, for sport and money. Sure, the guides will make the case that they respect the resource, but clearly they respect the money more.


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## Capt. Scott Griffin

Actually Gridley..I like conversation starting threads as much as the next guy when they are done with respect and intelligent conversation.  You clearly have something against guides and it is evident in your post. 

Calling into question our ethics and stating that we care more about the money than the fishery because we target Bull Reds for two short seasons a year is absurd and proves that you dont have a clue about what you are talking about.  

Fondling...now that is funny...it truly shows how little you know about these fish other than your trolling of websites.  

We know where these fish tend to go on certain tides in certain conditions..can we catch them at will..I wish I was that good.  

You sir need to speak about subjects you know about instead pretending to address a problem conceived in your limited knowledge of the fishery.


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## Josh Cook

I personally like how the origin of the post has has brought out so many people that disagree with its statement. 

I personally handle these fish as seen in my profile picture and take the utmost pride in what I do. For a person to question how these fish are handled obviously has never been with someone that has the caliber of care that us as professional fisherman have for these majestic creatures. 

We enjoy watching others catch these fish, YES! We can make money doing it, sure. Sounds like a win-win to me. It sounds like every other business opportunity to me. You enjoy doing something, why not make a living doing it. The great American dream. 

Maybe before passing judgement on what we do as a profession, you should take the time to learn the amount of respect that we have for the fishery. I agree with MOST of the statements made in rebuttal to your original post.   

Maybe you should turn your focus to those who keep fish out of slot range or more than the limit. Notice the quote I have as a signature states "Limit your keep, Don't keep your limit"? That was taught to me by one of the users that commented on your post, Capt. Richie Lott. He has taught me more about respect for this industry and this fishery than any regulation or article that I have ever read. I hope you get some education from these comments. It looks to me as if the people who commented actually care to defend their beliefs in the strength of this fishery.

Have a wonderful evening!!


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## Hooked On Quack

Gridley stepped in a big ole pile 'o doodoo when he started this thread.  These guides/Captains know their stuff and are highly respected resources of knowledge and capabilities and are good enough to make a living at it.


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## Scrapy

I could tell in his first few threads about the foreigner from up yonder gonna come down here and straighten us Southern boys out.  Much more doogooder to come yet! He ain't even got moved in yet.


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## Nicodemus

Hooked On Quack said:


> Gridley stepped in a big ole pile 'o doodoo when he started this thread.  These guides/Captains know their stuff and are highly respected resources of knowledge and capabilities and are good enough to make a living at it.




Yep. And they have stated their cases with class and style. 

Captains and Guides, I commend you.


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## Gridley

I didn't step in anything. I knew that the guides will aggressively justify and defend their actions. And, I am open to learning something.  As I said, it's a conversation. I have a different opinion, which I stated. It's worth a conversation rather than taking for granted, or avoiding because others will not agree.

The fact remains that fish protected for a good reason are being targeted for sport and money, and it's not harmless.


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## Capt. Scott Griffin

Gridley...stating something as fact when its your opinion gives the impression you know what you are talking about.  The facts suggest otherwise. 

How many Bull Reds have you ever caught and released or witnessed being caught and released?  Inquiring minds want to know.


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## Gridley

Is it not a fact that over slot Reds are protected?
Is it not a fact that they are being targeted for sport and money?
Is it not a fact that the practice is harmful to the fish in some way?

If you were in the act of spawning, and someone snagged you in the mouth, and dragged you under water and held you there the time it took to take your picture multiple times, and then patted you on the behind and wished you good luck in the future, do you think that perhaps you would consider that harmless?


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## Capt. Scott Griffin

How do you know the fish are pre-spawn, spawning or post-spawn.

Yes they are protected...from harvest.. not from catching and releasing.  As are lots of other fish that are targeted around the US.  The fish we release are released in good shape.  Often times we will catch the same fish twice in the same day...and again the next day.  Anytime you catch and release a fish there is some trauma done..how the fish is handled and released is key.  This is a fact that you are ignoring with your fondling fluffy pat on the butt wishful sarcasm.  

Do we take customers fishing for Bull Reds and receive payment..sure do.  These fish are targeted for sport as well by recreational anglers and also targeted by guides when we have a day off.  Sorry..guilty as charged...If for one minute I thought it was harming the fishery I would stop fishing for them.

 It really does seem that you have a problem with guides in general.  The fact that we make money taking folks fishing bothers you for some reason.


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## Sharkfighter

Gridley said:


> Is it not a fact that the practice is harmful to the fish in some way?
> 
> If you were in the act of spawning, and someone snagged you in the mouth, and dragged you under water and held you there the time it took to take your picture multiple times, and then patted you on the behind and wished you good luck in the future, do you think that perhaps you would consider that harmless?



Are you a vegan tree hugger?  A human is not a fish.  what would be harmful and immoral to do to a person is perfectly fine to do to a fish

YOU Give all us poor souls that were born Yankees but moved to the great State of GA as soon as we could a bad name.

"Is it not a fact that the practice is harmful to the fish in some way?"  

No that is not a fact.  

The Fish mortality rate, especially if you use circle hooks is extremely low, with a proper release.   

These fish are not brought up from a 100 ft depth, or fought for an hour on the hook, or consumed by sharks and cuda when released.   

It is not harmful to the fish, and a blast to catch them.

No it is not a fact all.  

I believe very much in conservation and environmental protection.  Every month i work with a great volunteer organization to clean beaches and the rivers. I do a lot to protect the environment and preserve it for the future.

But show me ANY facts , not your opinion, that there is a high mortality for these fish or shut the hecck up


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## Gridley

I don't have a problem or grudge with guides. I like guides. This isn't a personal attack on guides. I'm just stating the facts, and my opinion thus derived. 

Just saying, what we all know and somehow come to take for granted, especially when one powerful and convincing economic faction would have us believe in their good will and faith. 

If you are doing a good job with the resource, keep it up, because some of us are watching and wondering if you are any different than the multitude in regard to doing what you say you do.

I have no idea of morality rate, and in a way that's not the entire issue. If these fish are using their energy to procreate, and much of that energy is zapped in fighting with a fisherman, and of course the disorientation, then that has to have an effect on what they are there for - whether actually spawning, or may in the future.


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## trippcasey

Dear Gridley, 

Go troll on another forum. 

Sincerely, 
Every fisherman on this forum.


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## Capt. Scott Griffin

I would hardly call Fishing guides a powerful and economic faction.  If we were the Red Snapper season would be reopened. Just saying!!

Are you questioning my integrity...or do I detect a veiled threat in there.  I am an open book..anytime..anywhere..anyhow.


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## Capt. Scott Griffin

Hop up on DR Scott's couch Gridley..lets talk about your problems..relax and drift back in time..yes..there it is..thats the root of the problem...you wanted to be a fishing guide and couldnt pass the test..now you resent anyone that fishes for a living..now we are getting somewhere..we will address your fixation of fondling fish and patting them on the butts next..how was your relationship with your parents..was it strained..can you hear the Lambs Scream Clarice?  Now if we could just keep you from putting finger slime on the keyboard  and dancing around in a pink tutu  while protecting the Spotted Owl and the rare Hillary Clinton supporter we would be making progress. Just kidding..thought I would lighten it up a bit.  
And FYI..to catch me in the act of spawning you would have to be a very gifted fisherman considering I am done in about 30 seconds..lol and that includes a cigarette.


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## jfish

Again as stated above what is the difference in catching any species during spawn?  I can assure you it goes on everywhere. I have even been interrupted myself and had to pull up my pants on the run. 

The point would be why target the conversation to bull reds. Any fish are at some point in spawn. At any given time and place in the U.S. We are now at turkey hunting season so I guess it's shame full to shoot a gobbler thinking we are a hen.

I honestly think this has to be one of the most stupid topics I have seen on GON in a long time.


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## jfish

Richie, Scott, and Josh. This guy probably is signed up for a free guide trip giveaway.


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## Gridley

Capt. Scott Griffin said:


> I would hardly call Fishing guides a powerful and economic faction.  If we were the Red Snapper season would be reopened. Just saying!!
> 
> Are you questioning my integrity...or do I detect a veiled threat in there.  I am an open book..anytime..anywhere..anyhow.



If there is any veiled threat it's not coming from me.

BTW, you don't have to look long and hard to see on youtube some of your fellow do-gooder guides holding their catch and to be released in the eye sockets, or by the gills, and showing them off to the camera. 

Yea, just like practically anything - talk is cheap. Talk a good line, doesn't make it true.


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## Gridley

jfish said:


> Richie, Scott, and Josh. This guy probably is signed up for a free guide trip giveaway.



Irony is wonderful


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## jfish

As I have said on other threads here it's no wonder guides rarely post on here. Point proven.


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## Gridley

jfish said:


> Again as stated above what is the difference in catching any species during spawn?  I can assure you it goes on everywhere. I have even been interrupted myself and had to pull up my pants on the run.
> 
> The point would be why target the conversation to bull reds. Any fish are at some point in spawn. At any given time and place in the U.S. We are now at turkey hunting season so I guess it's shame full to shoot a gobbler thinking we are a hen.
> 
> I honestly think this has to be one of the most stupid topics I have seen on GON in a long time.



If you think it's stupid, why bother?

Your analogy is worthless. All fish spawn = that's your argument? Now that's stupid.

As I said, the Reds in question are all spawners, and all protected, and the fact that they are spawning or thinking about it makes them vulnerable, and the guides know it, and take advantage of it.

I chose Reds as an example, because of the recent posts herein.  Other species targeted during the spawn are not comparable, if they are not also protected and must be released supposedly unharmed.


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## Capt. Scott Griffin

Again you seem to be questioning my integrity..talk may be cheap in your neck of the woods...but actions speak louder than words around here...and only so much can be accomplished behind the cover of a keyboard which is where you seem to snipe from. peace out


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## Gridley

jfish said:


> As I have said on other threads here it's no wonder guides rarely post on here. Point proven.



When they do, it's generally promotional, and often even bragging, and lately about targeting spawning Reds.


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## Gridley

Capt. Scott Griffin said:


> Again you seem to be questioning my integrity..talk may be cheap in your neck of the woods...but actions speak louder than words around here...and only so much can be accomplished behind the cover of a keyboard which is where you seem to snipe from. peace out



As I said, if there is a threat it's not coming from me.


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## Capt. Scott Griffin

jfish said:


> Richie, Scott, and Josh. This guy probably is signed up for a free guide trip giveaway.



LOL...now that would be funny


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## jfish

You can't fix stupid is definitely my point. It's useless to argue with a sign post. 

I suppose trout in north GA are not protected? Sharks on the coast are also protected. Númerous species have length limits. The conversation could have been started better and also not so negative maybe. I guess who the heck knows. Fact is that it's a dumb post to use them for topic when all things spawn and we as humans usually manipulate it or interfere with it when we choose to do so. 

Anyway have fun.


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## jfish

Btw come on down Saturday I will be catching some pre-spawn trout. Yes they have had roe for several weeks now.


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## trippcasey

Gridley, you are digging a hole man. You know nothing about what these guys do, and it is evident in you past posts on this forum. It was only a few weeks ago that you were interested in looking up one of these guides after we helped you out on an issue with using online tide/fishing activity charts like Tides for Fishing.com. You dont know crap but a few things you have read online. Please, just go away. You have no reason to attack these guys. None. You are doing this just to troll and pull strings. This aint your HuffPo forum. We take this seriously, and you obviously dont. Go away please.


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## Capt. Scott Griffin

Gridley said:


> When they do, it's generally promotional, and often even bragging, and lately about targeting spawning Reds.



Its sad that you feel this way....I try and post informative post as do most of the guides on this forum.  Not to mention the countless private messages from folks asking for advice about this or that or asking for help etc..I dont mind helping anyone out and I will continue to post pictures of trips that I run including pictures of Bull Reds..nothing wrong with that..you call it bragging..I call it pride in a job well done.  If it brings me business..great...if not..so be it..but at least I took the time to share some info and pics of fish caught on my boat.


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## Gridley

trippcasey said:


> Gridley, You know nothing about what these guys do, and it is evident in you past posts on this forum. It was only a few weeks ago that you were interested in looking up one of these guides after we helped you out on an issue with using online tide/fishing activity charts like Tides for Fishing.com. You dont know crap but a few things you have read online. Please, just go away. You have no reason to attack these guys. None. You are doing this just to troll and pull strings. This aint your HuffPo forum. We take this seriously, and you obviously dont. Go away please.



What these guys do is self-evident. They post pictures and brag about it. And yes I would still hire a guide, but not one who specializes in targeting spawning protected fish. Because you take it seriously is exactly why I made my post. And it is not my intention to attack anything, the "guys" or the practice. It's legal.

I'm just saying and supporting my opinion on the practice. I know my opinion isn't popular and suspect others may share it, but don't bother to say so because of the aggressive opposition. All I'm saying is that I think the spawning Reds and Specks - specifically the over slot fish whether spawning or not - should not be specifically targeted for sport. They are deemed out of slot and in a special class for a reason and that should be respected.


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## jfish




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## jfish

Most of these guides are great. I live here and I have hired some of them myself and will continue to do so. Learning never ends.  Most think "spots" is why you hire them. I hire them for knowledge and encourage them to different waters. It's a way for both of us to learn. 

These guys are good at what they do. And they take care of the environment they are in.


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## Sharkfighter

Gridley said:


> I have no idea ,.



You could have stopped with that and no one on the forum would argue with you.

 you have No idea of mortality and no facts, only conjecture that it interferes with breeding


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## rebel bruiser

*Gridley Post*

I Personally Have Been On Capt. Scott Griffin's Boat--He Carried My Two Grandsons Out & Both Caught The Bulls--He Is Very Professional, Caring & Hospitable--I Can Not Put A Price On The Look On The Boy's Face When The Fish Surfaced--Yes We Got Pictures & Capt. Scotts Priority Was To Get The Fish Back In Safley  & Healthy--I Suggest If You Have Children Or Grandchildren, Take Advantage Of These Professional Guides--Keep On Fishin'


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## Gridley

Sharkfighter said:


> You could have stopped with that and no one on the forum would argue with you.
> 
> you have No idea of mortality and no facts, only conjecture that it interferes with breeding



I thought I was done and was going to just leave it for discussion, BUT -- I clearly stated the facts, and made clear distinction of my opinion thus derived. If you can't read or decipher, that's not my problem except when you say that I don't know the facts.

The fact is that over slot Reds and Specs are being targeted. Some such as myself have a problem with that. Many obviously do not and think it's OK. Those are the raw facts. You can make up whatever you want to rationalize it or justify it, but that isn't necessarily factual. You neither know what the mortality or harm is, and apparently don't care.

So, anyway, if you want me to go away, then don't accuse me of not knowing the facts.

I'm not a biologist, and suspect you aren't either, but the slot supposedly was set based on science. Now opinion - I suspect the catch and release practice is allowed based on political and lobby pressure, and has nothing to do with science, except perhaps social science.


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## Capt. Richie Lott

Give you something to whine about, Gridley.. That Atlantic Skiff should do well on Bull Reds.

Look at all this inhumanity for our personal gains! It's an outrage..


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## Capt. Scott Griffin

For your viewing pleasure Mr Gridley...now this is bragging!!!


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## Gridley

rebel bruiser said:


> I Personally Have Been On Capt. Scott Griffin's Boat--He Carried My Two Grandsons Out & Both Caught The Bulls--He Is Very Professional, Caring & Hospitable--I Can Not Put A Price On The Look On The Boy's Face When The Fish Surfaced--Yes We Got Pictures & Capt. Scotts Priority Was To Get The Fish Back In Safley  & Healthy--I Suggest If You Have Children Or Grandchildren, Take Advantage Of These Professional Guides--Keep On Fishin'



The kids know nothing except what you teach them and show by example. If the priority was for the fish safely and healthy it wouldn't have been targeted in the first place.


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## Gridley

Capt. Scott Griffin said:


> For your viewing pleasure Mr Gridley...now this is bragging!!!



Yep. I rest my case.

One thing for sure - you are not fishing for food and/or because you're hungry.


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## Capt. Scott Griffin

Gridley..thanks for the thread...I have now booked three trips tonight targeting Bull Reds...keep it coming...can you start a thread on King Mac and Cobia and Tripletail..I still have a few days open in May...thanks for your help!!!


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## doomtrpr_z71

Wow, it's not like they're shooting bald eagles or anything. It's a fish, it's caught, it's released, it goes back on its business. I'm still chasing my first redfish as I just started saltwater fishing last year and hooked a bullred that broke me off on the skeg, but I don't have a problem with this. I'd love to to go out with one of these guides but grad school don't leave me much play money. Redfish survival in ga is over 85% and hook position was the main factor in the mortality not the way it's held so circle hook away spawning reds.


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## Gridley

Capt. Scott Griffin said:


> Gridley..thanks for the thread...I have now booked three trips tonight targeting Bull Reds...keep it coming...can you start a thread on King Mac and Cobia and Tripletail..I still have a few days open in May...thanks for your help!!!



Glad to be of service. After all, what are we here for? 

If you aren't, someone else will, and perhaps not as resource conscience as you.

It's there for the exploitation, sanctioned by a Higher Power and all - just like the buffalo and bluefin tuna.


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## jfish

My hats off to you guys. I'm am good friends with several guides. I talk to them about this same thing a lot. I couldn't do it. I don't know how you deal with people like this. 

This guy is a real idiot. Ask for help on numerous occasions about the coast. Now criticizes what is a normal everyday each year occurrence.  Precisely why it's hard to offer help to people anymore.  Hope he has sea tow and a working vhf.


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## lowroller1

How much sense does it make to have expectations of people you don't know and who are unaware of your expectations? 

As long as fishermen are obeying the law, no one has a right to tell them how to conduct themselves within the law! Gridley, you'll just have to continue in your disappointment with your fellow fishermen. Which of us has the right to attempt to impose his arbitrary code of ethics on people he doesn't know? I'm suggesting a lack of realism here.

Captains have a right to make a living. If they are able to make their way in this world helping someone enjoy fishing, whether the target fish is a spawning fish or not - Bless them! Bless them for allowing the customer to enjoy the experience for a lifetime through the pictures that they take!


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## Capt. Scott Griffin

Gridley said:


> The kids know nothing except what you teach them and show by example. If the priority was for the fish safely and healthy it wouldn't have been targeted in the first place.




Rebel...thanks for the kind words.  What the kids were taught that day was how to responsibly catch, handle and release these majestic fish. The looks on the kids faces were priceless and I glad to have been a part of it.  We are all stewards of our fishery..not just Reds but every fish we target.  Some folks just dont understand the care we take with these fish like Tarpon..and the Reds..making sure they are safely released to fight another day is priority #1.


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## Capt. Richie Lott

jfish said:


> My hats off to you guys. I'm am good friends with several guides. I talk to them about this same thing a lot. I couldn't do it. I don't know how you deal with people like this.
> 
> This guy is a real idiot. Ask for help on numerous occasions about the coast. Now criticizes what is a normal everyday each year occurrence.  Precisely why it's hard to offer help to people anymore.  Hope he has sea tow and a working vhf.



Yes sir, it's extremely tough now days. It's dog eat dog in todays fishing world in many ways. Much of the loyalty and respect are both long gone.

Here's what I know about fishing and boating that you can't find in any book of useless liberal facts. 

 --- Karma is the great enemy on the water. The things you say, the things you do and have done will haunt you in a hundred ways---You'll shoot straight, or it's coming to get you. Period.


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## Capt. Scott Griffin

Gridley..You are trying to make a connection between Buffalo and Tuna and us fishing for bull Reds..thats a stretch and a desperate attempt to muddy the waters.  Last time I checked the Buffalo were shot and killed...and the Tuna are harvested.  I am not saying there isnt a problem with the Tuna..but it is a different fishery altogether. Sadly you really dont have the facts, fishing knowledge or experience to even attempt to have this conversation.  Your facts are based generalities with nothing to back them up..I am basing my argument on what I do..and the other guides I work with and know in the area.  Sure..there might be some bad eggs out there who dont know how to handle them and release them..but dont condemn fishing for a great fighting hardy fish based on your limited knowledge and experience.  Opinions are like...well you know the rest...everyone has one..just some are smellier than others.


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## Gridley

jfish said:


> My hats off to you guys. I'm am good friends with several guides. I talk to them about this same thing a lot. I couldn't do it. I don't know how you deal with people like this.
> 
> This guy is a real idiot. Ask for help on numerous occasions about the coast. Now criticizes what is a normal everyday each year occurrence.  Precisely why it's hard to offer help to people anymore.  Hope he has sea tow and a working vhf.




Whether you are helpful or not is a matter of attitude and good faith and good will. Either you have it unconditionally, introspectively, or not. If your manner and how you treat others is conditional on outside influences, that doesn't speak much for your character, and I wouldn't expect much. 

On the other hand, surely there are many genuine and generous people herein and in general who are respectful and helpful of others regardless of political, ideological affinity, and regardless of being like-minded or not.

Am I naïve, and it just ain't so?  Isn't a conversation possible, even if it is controversial and maybe not reconcilable, or do you guys just expect everyone to agree with you or go away?


----------



## jfish

Since we are on the guide subject call around. Many know me. I also fish with some regularly. I have been known not to fish stuff we both know because I know they have a charter. I also have been asked not to fish stuff because they showed me. I have also respected that. It's a do unto others as they do unto you kinda thing. I learned it in Sunday school about 40yrs ago.  

Good luck guys. Like I said above. It's like beating a dead horse with this guy. He will be back asking for help or change his name.


----------



## Capt. Scott Griffin

Gridley..I welcome debate...and enjoy it..with someone who has personal knowledge of the subject. 
Get some experience and then bring your chicken to the table and we will dine like kings..


----------



## Gridley

Capt. Scott Griffin said:


> Gridley..You are trying to make a connection between Buffalo and Tuna and us fishing for bull Reds..thats a stretch



It was an attempt to make a moral or attitude connection, not an actual cause and effect connection. I know the Red fish and Specks, etc. are not likely to go the way of the buff or Bluefin due to catch and release.

Anyway it's just a conversation. Iknow I'm easily dismissed, by various means, whatever you make up. It doesn't matter one bit to me.

Actually, I am surprised that I apparently stand alone on this and no one has spoken up except the advocates.


----------



## Capt. Scott Griffin

Gridley said:


> Actually, I am surprised that I apparently stand alone on this and no one has spoken up except the advocates.




Maybe that should be a sign to you Gridley...those of us that post here are advocates and conservationist of our fishery.  Maybe...you might be way off base with this and are alone in your holier than thou quest to end Bull Red Fishing.


----------



## Gridley

jfish said:


> He will be back asking for help or change his name.



You are giving yourself too much credit. For the record, I don't NEED anything from you, especially advice. 

In the future, if I ask for advice, let it be known that if you are deciding to give or withhold because you have agreed or disagreed with me in the past, then please keep your advice to yourself. 

If you decide to offer advice or info just because you know that I have nothing to do with your character and personal values, then I welcome and appreciate your input and feedback.


----------



## Gridley

Capt. Scott Griffin said:


> Maybe that should be a sign to you Gridley...those of us that post here are advocates and conservationist of our fishery.  Maybe...you might be way off base with this and are alone in your holier than thou quest to end Bull Red Fishing.



Of course. And I was willing to go there or I wouldn't have started this thread. I can be wrong, and acknowledge it, and do not feel bad about it at all. I've been wrong many times, and have little ego about it.

The jury is still out though. I could be wrong, but not yet ready to admit defeat in this debate. It's still an open conversation. I commend most of you for not being nasty.

What I'm waiting on, and giving time, is someone to chime in who thinks maybe it isn't a good practice. We've shown that it's a safe place to express view, and disagreement.

Of course, if no one chimes in, then I will concede  - what? - That the general consensus is that the practice is OK, and that I'm just being peculiar about it.


----------



## Capt. Scott Griffin

Its going to be a one sided debate maybe you can convince yourself that you are wrong..I have burned up the keyboard long enough tonight and its obvious that the minority view of one person who relishes kicking up dust and watching it settle is nothing more than a person with way too much time on your hands. Peace out..I have some circle hooks to sharpen and some bull red rods to spool.


----------



## Josh Cook

As I stated before Gridley, I love how the origin of this post has brought out so many people who disagree with its statement. I haven't seen a fact based argument on your side. Although I have seen facts and have personal experience in this field that you are so adamant to destroy in your smear campaign.

You question us on the harm and mortality of these fish yet you have provided no actual facts that the fish are actually harmed. We have given you the facts on our own experiences with this fish. To name one we talked about how we have caught the same fish several times in a season. To me that sounds a lot like the fish is HEALTHY!!

I am sure you would change your "Opinion" if your were to land one of these giants and feel the raw power of the fish. Or maybe see the joy in someones heart expressed through their smile and laughter. Pictures honestly do no justice when it comes to capturing the memory made because of the fight these fish provide. We love watching that memory be made over and over again and do everything within our power to ensure the fish is released healthy and in a timely manner. I have made posts before about the safe handling of these fish and a rule of thumb that I like to use is that when the fish has exited the water for the angler to hold their breath and when they are out of breath, it is time to return the fish to its home.

As stated so many times in this post. WE HANDLE WITH CARE!! You don't see our hands in the gills or supporting the fish vertical by its jaw. We use the safest possible techniques to ensure the safety of these fish. 

LONG LIVE THE BULL REDS!!!


Oh and here are some of the fish that you claim are harmed for picture purposes. ENJOY!!


----------



## jfish

Gridley said:


> You are giving yourself too much credit. For the record, I don't NEED anything from you, especially advice.
> 
> In the future, if I ask for advice, let it be known that if you are deciding to give or withhold because you have agreed or disagreed with me in the past, then please keep your advice to yourself.
> 
> If you decide to offer advice or info just because you know that I have nothing to do with your character and personal values, then I welcome and appreciate your input and feedback.



I honestly don't think you get it. I am not or will not offer some dip stick advice. Especially after this thread. Dude you started the conversation over one fish. There are many is what myself and many others stated that are harvested at the same time. You have to be an attorney or politician because you can argue to heck and back.  Politician probably and more than likely democrat because your arguement makes no sense at all.  
These guys show you what they do. They offer help when they can. They can take a photo of the spot I know of many places they ruined by doing so to idiots that are craving at a chance to follow a local guide.

Anyway like i said you can't argue with stupid. In the end it still stupid. And don't worry about advice. Change your name would be the only way I wouldn't forget some idiot wanting help asking about boat help and other information on the coast. Good luck. Your bridge is burnt.


----------



## jfish

Honestly I don't fish for them at all. Just don't care to. Kinda like shark fishing. I don't like it anymore


----------



## Gridley

I've caught big fish, plenty of them, and released some, but certainly not because they were over slot fish. I have never gone out fishing specifically with catch and release in mind. I don't understand what makes a person tick over it. I don't understand the point. If you like the idea of catch and release, then seems to me like golf is your game. Why play out some sort of inner primordial predator thing on a living creature? I don't understand what part of a person's character craves it, and is satisfied with it. 

I think it is some sort of perversion of an evolutionary trait, coming from some place in ancient times when we actually needed to catch fish to eat. I'm not sure it is something that we should celebrate, and embrace, or question.

Could be that it just is.


----------



## Gridley

jfish said:


> I honestly don't think you get it. I am not or will not offer some dip stick advice. Especially after this thread.  Your bridge is burnt.



I offered you advice, and your bridge is burnt too, in case you didn't notice. After this thread, thanks for revealing your true character, and heads up to me. Your withholding your self valued advice means nothing to me except to offer my thanks for saving me the trouble of rejecting it politely.


----------



## Capt. Scott Griffin

Dude...put the bottle down and step away from keyboard.


----------



## jfish

Look it's the thrill of the game. Not being a d head but everyone ticks different. I fished one day last last week and in hour half caught 9 largemouths and 3 huge (for this area) white perch. The bass were spawn or post spawn. It was a blast. I threw back each one as I caught them. I don't want to kill each one. Honestly none of them because I don't want to eat them anymore. 

Similar yeah but not necessarily so. The bull reds are caught an released. End of story. It's the thrill of the game. Same thing as catching and tagging a marlin. Or getting a tarpon up to the boat to cut the leader at the boat for release. Same thing. Don't judge so fast is the entire point everyone has been trying to make. Try it. Go with one of these guides. They will show you a good time and also maybe show you they care more than you see on a web thread.


----------



## Josh Cook

Gridley said:


> I've caught big fish, plenty of them, and released some. I have never gone out fishing specifically with catch and release in mind. I don't understand what makes a person tick over it. I don't understand the point. If you like the idea of catch and release, then seems to me like golf is your game. Why play out some sort of inner primordial predator thing on a living creature? I don't understand what part of a person's character craves it, and is satisfied with it.
> 
> I think it is some sort of perversion of an evolutionary trait, coming from some place in ancient times when we actually needed to catch fish to eat. I'm not sure it is something that we should celebrate, and embrace, or question.
> 
> Could be that it just is.



Maybe some people get stress relief from the sport.  Ever think of that one bud? Maybe people getting enjoyment from watching other people enjoy a shared passion.  Oh wait maybe we like to educate every single person that goes with us on a trip to make them better understand our methods and intentions for this fishery.  Hmm that might make some juices start flowing in the brain that is so clogged by irrational judgement and a plot to slander the names of those who make a living loving what they do.


----------



## Gridley

jfish said:


> Don't judge so fast is the entire point everyone has been trying to make. Try it. Go with one of these guides. They will show you a good time and also maybe show you they care more than you see on a web thread.




You are giving advice again, despite saying you wouldn't. 

Ok, I appreciate it, even though I said I wouldn't.


----------



## Gridley

Josh Cook said:


> Maybe some people get stress relief from the sport.  Ever think of that one bud? Maybe people getting enjoyment from watching other people enjoy a shared passion.  Oh wait maybe we like to educate every single person that goes with us on a trip to make them better understand our methods and intentions for this fishery.  Hmm that might make some juices start flowing in the brain that is so clogged by irrational judgement and a plot to slander the names of those who make a living loving what they do.



Hey, you should thank me for providing the perfect forum or opportunity to express yourself. Who could have done it but me?   If there is any slander to be had in this it will be self-induced, stemming from the zeal of the practice and behavior and justifications, set against the backdrop of public opinion unfavorable to it, if that exists. I'm neutral on the slander, not a player, and have stated my opinion. If you feel threatened by the possibility of slander, then don't behave in a way that might provide a legit opening.  

Like I said, maybe it just is. There is certainly something positive to be said about making a living at something one loves to do, especially fishing. I knew from the beginning that there were positive aspects of this, but it has been a long standing gnawing question for me. In the past, when I've gone fishing it has always been with the intent to bring some of the catch home for eating. Sure, I cull them and keep only what I intend to eat, releasing the small ones and generally the larger breeding stock too. I have not, in my recollection, gone fishing for the purpose of catching the biggest of the species. I have always been a slot fisherman, and generally just quit fishing when I have enough to eat.


----------



## jfish

Gridley said:


> You are giving advice again, despite saying you wouldn't.
> 
> Ok, I appreciate it, even though I said I wouldn't.



Or don't go with a guide or don't go at all. I could care less honestly.


----------



## Scrapy

Capt. Scott Griffin said:


> Hop up on DR Scott's couch Gridley..lets talk about your problems..relax and drift back in time..yes..there it is..thats the root of the problem...you wanted to be a fishing guide and couldnt pass the test..now you resent anyone that fishes for a living..now we are getting somewhere..we will address your fixation of fondling fish and patting them on the butts next..how was your relationship with your parents..was it strained..can you hear the Lambs Scream Clarice?  Now if we could just keep you from putting finger slime on the keyboard  and dancing around in a pink tutu  while protecting the Spotted Owl and the rare Hillary Clinton supporter we would be making progress. Just kidding..thought I would lighten it up a bit.
> And FYI..to catch me in the act of spawning you would have to be a very gifted fisherman considering I am done in about 30 seconds..lol and that includes a cigarette.


I would be chuckling over that one but it now takes me all night to do what I used to do all night.


I'm a doogooder myownself when I get on my high horse and ------d up.

Get hyar quick bo , we need savin.


----------



## dawgwatch

I would personally say thanks to all the guides that come on here and offer advice and tips to every one. It's you guys that help teach newcomers this great sport that we can one day hopefully pass down to the next generation. And I hope in doing so your buisness grows and is blessed more than you ever thought possible. I hope in the near future to book a trip with one of you guys as my schedule permits. keep living the dream guys...


----------



## Scrapy

Why ?  you worried about reds any way? Last time I checked your start off thread, you were more worried about paddlin around in a creek in a kayack and catchin mud minners and fiddlers and snails and stuff. You done gone to showin your true colors or what?

Why don't you move on down here and run for Congress?   Every one of them has opinions too.  Some can't set them holier than thou opinions aside and get elected. But you surely have all it takes.


----------



## Scrapy

If Gridley had a hundred million dollar, he would be a thoughorly dangerous individual.

Kinda like PETA
 " Feelings, nothing but Feelings" was a good ole 60's song.

It is now 60 years later. 

I'm an ole Hippie, an I don't know what to do. Should I hang on to the ole life? Should I reach out for the new?


----------



## Gridley

jfish said:


> Or don't go with a guide or don't go at all. I could care less honestly.



Then keep your advice to your self. Or is it that you think you are withholding something of value?


----------



## Gridley

Scrapy said:


> If Gridley had a hundred million dollar, he would be a thoughorly dangerous individual.
> 
> Kinda like PETA
> " Feelings, nothing but Feelings" was a good ole 60's song.
> 
> It is now 60 years later.
> 
> I'm an ole Hippie, an I don't know what to do. Should I hang on to the ole life? Should I reach out for the new?



The only reason you acknowledge me at all is because what I represent is a threat to you, and always has been. It ain't me personally that's a threat, but your own notions of what is, compared to something you can't and never will understand.


----------



## Hooked On Quack




----------



## Scrapy

Gridley said:


> The only reason you acknowledge me at all is because what I represent is a threat to you, and always has been. It ain't me personally that's a threat, but your own notions of what is, compared to something you can't and never will understand.


 Listen man, I have been to colleges all over. I have CONSIDERED every thing you have presented on here at one point or other in my life . And I have REJECTED it. So there! Hate to disappoint you but I am not threatened by your thoughts and notions. Read up on Aldo for awhile.


----------



## fish hawk

Scrapy said:


> Read up on Aldo for awhile.



You talkin bout the shoes.


----------



## Gridley

The fact remains that the over slot Reds are being exploited on a significant commercial scale strictly for sport and money, by a select and effective few, and the behavior is aggressively defended. Testimony as to the effectiveness as stated in this thread is some individual fish are caught more than once. 

To me this practice is contra to the reason these fish are over slot in the first place. The practice of targeting the breeding stock certainly isn't about biology or protecting the base population of the fish for all to enjoy. It's a niche fishery and bullied right in the loophole, and done specifically for the thrill and money. The claim that somehow this is consistent with the collective conscience of science based resource management seems an obvious farce to me.


----------



## dtala

I was lost at "human finger slime".......


----------



## Josh Cook

Gridley said:


> The fact remains that the over slot Reds are being exploited on a significant commercial scale strictly for sport and money, by a select and effective few, and the behavior is aggressively defended. Testimony as to the effectiveness as stated in this thread is some individual fish are caught more than once.
> 
> To me this practice is contra to the reason these fish are over slot in the first place. The practice of targeting the breeding stock certainly isn't about biology or protecting the base population of the fish for all to enjoy. It's a niche fishery and bullied right in the loophole, and done specifically for the thrill and money. The claim that somehow this is consistent with the collective conscience of science based resource management seems an obvious farce to me.



You state that these reds are being exploited on a commercial scale and only by a select and effective few.To me that sounds like you are referring to Guides. Correct me if I am wrong please. It seems you have some sort of vendetta against us as professionals.Have you gone on a charter targeting these fish and had a bad experience? I would love to know the root of your frustration with this topic. 

You claim this thread to be a conversation starter. This has started more than a conversation though. It has become the next great debate, but only with one person on the side of the origin. Maybe you should take the knowledge learned here and put it to use. Go with a guide that knows what they are doing and then form your opinion on the matter. Having never gone, you have no right to make accusations that we as professionals do wrong to this fishery. In my opinion and many others, we have more care for this fishery than anyone else. We make our living because of this fishery, we wouldn't do harm to it. To do so would be to ruin our business. And brother let me tell you, business is booming. Which also tells me that these fish are healthy and surviving. 

The fish have gotten larger in size and quantity with each year passing which tells me logical fact, that the fish are rebounding. They are doing just fine. With every person that sets foot on our boats they learn a plethora of knowledge about Bull Reds and the sustainment process. They also can see how much we care about these fish. We care for them the same way whether we have a charter or we decide to go fish for our own relaxation and memories. I really do hope you have learned something from us. If not, then whoever reads this thread will be educated on our vigor for this fishery.


----------



## Nicodemus

Gridley said:


> I've caught big fish, plenty of them, and released some, but certainly not because they were over slot fish. I have never gone out fishing specifically with catch and release in mind. I don't understand what makes a person tick over it. I don't understand the point. If you like the idea of catch and release, then seems to me like golf is your game. Why play out some sort of inner primordial predator thing on a living creature? I don't understand what part of a person's character craves it, and is satisfied with it.
> 
> I think it is some sort of perversion of an evolutionary trait, coming from some place in ancient times when we actually needed to catch fish to eat. I'm not sure it is something that we should celebrate, and embrace, or question.
> 
> Could be that it just is.




If this is how you think, then you are on the wrong forum. And you will change none of us, so you might as well give it up. You won`t win this debate. These men are doing no wrong, so don`t accuse them of wrongdoing.


----------



## Bass105

I Totally Agree.  



trippcasey said:


> Dear Gridley,
> 
> Go troll on another forum.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Every fisherman on this forum.


----------



## Sharkfighter

Gridley said:


> I thought I was done and was going to just leave it for discussion, BUT -- I clearly stated the facts, and made clear distinction of my opinion thus derived. If you can't read or decipher, that's not my problem except when you say that I don't know the facts.
> 
> The fact is that over slot Reds and Specs are being targeted. Some such as myself have a problem with that. Many obviously do not and think it's OK. Those are the raw facts. You can make up whatever you want to rationalize it or justify it, but that isn't necessarily factual. You neither know what the mortality or harm is, and apparently don't care.
> 
> So, anyway, if you want me to go away, then don't accuse me of not knowing the facts.
> 
> I'm not a biologist, and suspect you aren't either, but the slot supposedly was set based on science. Now opinion - I suspect the catch and release practice is allowed based on political and lobby pressure, and has nothing to do with science, except perhaps social science.



Well yes I do have a Biology degree from Temple University   but that is besides the point

The slot is so you cant keep fish.  Since nobody is saying you should keep over or under slot reds what is your point?

You admit you have no evidence of high fish mortality from the catch and release.  That is a fact.

You admit you have no evidence of CPR (catch photo release) interfering with redfish breeding.  That is a fact

So what do you base your animus toward anglers and guides targeting bull reds?


----------



## Bama B

I guess I would be considered one of the effective few. I am not a guide or do I make a living fishing. I have been fishing for big Reds all my life. And will continue to do it with family and friends as long as i can. You are welcome to your opinion. But until you can show me some kind of data or research showing negative effects. Thats what it is just an opinion. I work and fish with these guides every day. We are lucky to have some of the finest ones around. We have one of the strongest fishery around. I believe you are just stirring things up for your own personal satisfaction. I would ask that everyone stop trying to defend this type of fishing. there is no reason to. Unfortunately we have members here stirring the pot for there own gratification nothing more.


----------



## doomtrpr_z71

Yet my statistics were ignored


----------



## mudcrikitt

I have been following this forum for about 5 years, started when I was deployed. It was the highlight of my week. Seeing pictures of the bull reds and reading the reports the guides posted as well as other fisherman always made my day. This forum has been going down hill for a while now. The volume of members posting tips and tactics is not even close to what it used to be. I think its because of people like Gridley who make it unenjoyable. Most guides in my area stay off of this forum due to the petty bull crap some transplants push out. Its a shame because learning to fish the GA coast is hard. Fish on men!


----------



## ROAM

dawgwatch said:


> I would personally say thanks to all the guides that come on here and offer advice and tips to every one. It's you guys that help teach newcomers this great sport that we can one day hopefully pass down to the next generation. And I hope in doing so your buisness grows and is blessed more than you ever thought possible. I hope in the near future to book a trip with one of you guys as my schedule permits. keep living the dream guys...



Exactly!  I pretty much stay away from other sections of the forum due to these types of 'trolling' postings.  
I dont have a lick of knowledge about the salt, and this is one of the only places I can go to gain information about our regional fishery.  As a newcomer, this section of the forum is invaluable.  Lets not screw it up by making it confrontational.  And yes, I definitely wish I could make a living by either hunting or fishing full time!


----------



## NCHillbilly

Good grief. If you think fishing is cruel to the fish, maybe you are posting in the wrong place. This is a fishing forum.


----------



## Gridley

It's not cruelty to the fish that I'm talking about. It's no surprise that someone here would say something like that. I think I made it pretty clear that what I'm talking about is some people exploiting the large Reds, catch and release, for some sort of perverted predatory behavior syndrome satisfaction, and it's contrary to the intent of protecting those fish as over slot fish. If you can't keep them, then you shouldn't be targeting them merely for a play thing.

I think that the notion that I don't belong here among this type of people is correct. I see that you have already run off anyone who may be like minded. I can see why this forum, GON, boils down to a monoculture.  Unfortunately the Georgia Outdoors isn't the exclusive domain of aggressive conservative hypocritical exploiters in regard to the resource we all cherish. We can have laws of good intent to help protect the resource and your types merely find a loophole, and fire the biologist (messenger). You should be ashamed of what you do, yet you are proud of it.


----------



## Bama B

Sir you are trading on dangerous waters with your statements.


----------



## Bama B

Treading on dangerous waters with your statement.


----------



## Sharkfighter

Gridley said:


> I think I made it pretty clear that what I'm talking about is some people exploiting the large Reds, catch and release, for some sort of perverted predatory behavior syndrome satisfaction, and it's contrary to the intent of protecting those fish as over slot fish.
> .



I have to laugh at gridley.  I fish salt water 2 or 3 times a month.  He has never posted pics of him salt water fishing GA coast or shared a fishing report.

Catch and release is the most conservation minded of all fishing,   and is mostly what I do.  I fish for the enjoyment of fishing. 

it is not an exploitation , obviously Gridley doesn't know what the word means.  Exploitation would be killing bull reds so nobody else can catch them in the future.  By releasing them, you ensure future generations can catch them

While I do eat fresh fish I catch, it is cheaper to buy them at the supermarket or fish store.  You either enjoy fishing, or are in the wrong place.

I love guides and fisherman that share pics and knowledge makes being stuck at work worthwhile and wish them all the luck in the world


----------



## Bama B

You should not laugh at Gridley. You should feel sorry for him.


----------



## Bama B

Sharkfighter your right he has not posted any pictures or reports because he never fishes salt water. Check out the thread he started in feb stating he would like to learn.


----------



## Bama B

The thread is Newbe to ga coastal fishing and affects of moon phase both in Ga coastal fishing threads.


----------



## Gridley

Bama B said:


> Sir you are trading on dangerous waters with your statements.



I know - because I know your type. I understand the threat, and that you would do ANYTHING in support of your belief, not just on this subject, and the "ANYTHING" is not limited to within the law.

When a person demonstrates the lack of ethics in one arena, it's a sure thing that the deficiency is pervasive.


----------



## wray912

By your logic...you shouldnt interfiere with spawning fish, red fish are either prespawn spawnin postspawn or tryin to survive till the next spawn to continue the life cycle so by your logic you should never target them period...all fish are doin the same thing at one point or another so are deer turkeys ducks people everything....maybe you should take up bird watching, oh wait they're nesting right now, id hate for you to disrupt anything just keep trolling, i guess you doin less harm to the wildlife at the computer


----------



## doomtrpr_z71

Gridley said:


> I know - because I know your type. I understand the threat, and that you would do ANYTHING in support of your belief, not just on this subject, and the "ANYTHING" is not limited to within the law.
> 
> When a person demonstrates the lack of ethics in one arena, it's a sure thing that the deficiency is pervasive.



You've yet to comment on the mortality statistics,  just ethics


----------



## Bama B

Sir its not a threat. Its a statement. And you nothing about me. I do not have to resort to insulting people or there beliefs. Again I feel sorry for you.


----------



## Gridley

Sharkfighter said:


> Catch and release is the most conservation minded of all fishing,   and is mostly what I do.  I fish for the enjoyment of fishing.



What's next - manatees, deer?

I agree somewhat on the concept of catch and release, but the distinction here is the targeting of one species, and a significant segment of the species. This is not catch and release in general as you described. And this is on a large scale, conducted by those who are very proficient at it.


----------



## Gridley

Bama B said:


> Sir its not a threat. Its a statement. And you nothing about me. I do not have to resort to insulting people or there beliefs. Again I feel sorry for you.



It was a threat.

However, I can see how I am a threat, because it should be clear that if I could I would bring a firestorm of indignant opposition to what is shown here with the over slot reds. I would spearhead it all the way to the legislature if I could.


----------



## Nicodemus

Gridley said:


> I know - because I know your type. I understand the threat, and that you would do ANYTHING in support of your belief, not just on this subject, and the "ANYTHING" is not limited to within the law.
> 
> When a person demonstrates the lack of ethics in one arena, it's a sure thing that the deficiency is pervasive.





An accusatory post. You just think you know, when you don`t have a clue. You also know nothing about any of the folks. Who are you to judge?


----------



## Gridley

I have not seen one post in opposition to the behavior, so it is a fair assumption that everyone herein condones it or participates in it. IMO, it's clearly not right.

I am entitled to judge people by their behavior and what they believe in, and will do it for the rest of my life, whether you approve or not.

You are right, I am accusing practically all of you of doing something that's not right, and we all know this is merely one thing. If you can justify greying the lines of right and wrong on one thing, then where are your lines?

You are either guilty directly or by association. Those who standby and watch a rape, and do nothing, are guilty too.


----------



## Nicodemus

Gridley said:


> I have not seen one post in opposition to the behavior, so it is a fair assumption that everyone herein condones it or participates in it. IMO, it's clearly not right.
> 
> I am entitled to judge people by their behavior and what they believe in, and will do it for the rest of my life, whether you approve or not.
> 
> You are right, I am accusing practically all of you of doing something that's not right, and we all know this is merely one thing. If you can justify greying the lines of right and wrong on one thing, then where are your lines?
> 
> You are either guilty directly or by association. Those who standby and watch a rape, and do nothing, are guilty too.





From reds to rape, with a manatee thrown in for good measure. 

Alright then.


----------



## Bama B

Sir you are not a threat by any means. You are some one makes statements with no relevant research to support your statements. If any on should be mad its me. I am mad with myself for taking the time to help you with information in some of your earlier threads. Like I have already stated it was not a threat it was a statement. But it is obvious with your state of mind you would take it that way. There are a lot of good people on this forum with good information willing to share with everyone. Its unfortunate to have certain individuals ruin it for the rest of us


----------



## Gridley

Bama B said:


> Its unfortunate to have certain individuals ruin it for the rest of us



That's just the way it is, from both points of view.

The polarization is keen, with no signs of letup, isn't it?

If there are "good" people lurking within this forum, then come forward and speak up on this subject of a select group harassing your brood stock of Reds, as a pretend predatory game. The subject of your resource, played with by others, is no honorable game.


----------



## dieselengine9

Every reply you give this guy just gives him more satisfaction in knowing he has succeeded in coming to a fishing forum and caused high blood pressure.

He has compared everyone here to a witness to rape who will do nothing.  

Classic troll.  Don't bite the hook and he'll go away.


----------



## oops1

Equating catching spawning reds to rape is just plain asinine.


----------



## Gridley

oops1 said:


> Equating catching spawning reds to rape is just plain asinine.



Then why did you equate it?


----------



## Browning Slayer

Gridley said:


> I have never gone out fishing specifically with catch and release in mind. I don't understand what makes a person tick over it. I don't understand the point. If you like the idea of catch and release, then seems to me like golf is your game. Why play out some sort of inner primordial predator thing on a living creature? I don't understand what part of a person's character craves it, and is satisfied with it.



You must not like to fish.... I catch and release 99% of the fish I catch. So I'm wrong to throw fish back into the water if I don't have freezer room? 

I guess I'm just unethical... From my barbless hooks all the way down to catch and release...

As far as the redfish... Captains, keep doing what you are doing and giving folks trips on the water that will live in them forever!

And BTW... The trout in my Avatar is still swimming...


----------



## oops1

Gridley said:


> Then why did you equate it?



I see what you did there... Well played.. Sir


----------



## Gridley

Nicodemus said:


> From reds to rape, with a manatee thrown in for good measure.
> 
> Alright then.



Just trying to figure out where the line of right and wrong is drawn herein. If harassing the Reds is ok, then I am unsure of the limits of the definition of ethical sport is for the participants herein. It's a wildcard.


----------



## Nicodemus

Gridley said:


> Just trying to figure out where the line of right and wrong is drawn herein. If harassing the Reds is ok, then I am unsure of the limits of the definition of ethical sport is for the participants herein. It's a wildcard.





No it`s not. If you can`t figure that one out, then you have bigger problems than the worries of the redfish stocks along the Southern Atlantic coast.


----------



## doomtrpr_z71

Gridley said:


> Just trying to figure out where the line of right and wrong is drawn herein. If harassing the Reds is ok, then I am unsure of the limits of the definition of ethical sport is for the participants herein. It's a wildcard.



So fishing during the spawn is harassment but it's ethical any other time?


----------



## wray912

Gridley said:


> That's just the way it is, from both points of view.
> 
> The polarization is keen, with no signs of letup, isn't it?
> 
> If there are "good" people lurking within this forum, then come forward and speak up on this subject of a select group harassing your brood stock of Reds, as a pretend predatory game. The subject of your resource, played with by others, is no honorable game.



you continue to say they are everyones fish yet you keep contradicting yourself by telling everyone that you can only catch them if its done the way you want us to.. you cant have it both ways


----------



## Gridley

I'll try to answer both your questions. 

I am surprised that there seems to be no opposition to the targeting of the brood stock Reds, whether actually spawning or not. This is not the same as other types of catch and release, yet there seems to be no awareness of that fact.

And yes, targeting them during spawning can be seen as harassment, since at that time they are the most vulnerable and predictable, and also because they are doing what they are there for, and what the intent of the over slot regs are supposed to accomplish.

I'm just saying that in general people who are prone to rationalizations and justifications to blur the lines of right and wrong, do not limit the behavior to just one thing. Human behavior is rather predictable, and there is no reason to assume that this behavior and condoning of it is isolated.


----------



## Gridley

wray912 said:


> you continue to say they are everyones fish yet you keep contradicting yourself by telling everyone that you can only catch them if its done the way you want us to.. you cant have it both ways



In theory, neither can the guides, but they would have you believe they can, and as it works out, they can.


----------



## wray912

Gridley said:


> In theory, neither can the guides, but they would have you believe they can, and as it works out, they can.



please explain how they think they own the fish


----------



## doomtrpr_z71

Gridley said:


> I'll try to answer both your questions.
> 
> I am surprised that there seems to be no opposition to the targeting of the brood stock Reds, whether actually spawning or not. This is not the same as other types of catch and release, yet there seems to be no awareness of that fact.
> 
> I'm just saying that in general people who are prone to rationalizations and justifications to grey the lines of wright and wrong, do not limit the behavior to just one thing. Human behavior is rather predictable, and there is no reason to assume that this behavior and condoning of it is isolated.



The mortality rate was only 15% before circle hooks, with circle hooks it's like 4%. And the majority of mortality is from hook positioning, so fish with circle hooks and stop worrying about it. You must be kin to old dead river.


----------



## Hornet22

doomtrpr_z71 said:


> You must be kin to old dead river.


----------



## kmckinnie

I've been red fishen for awhile now & I'm a little confused on something. What is this slot size thing ya'll talking about ? And is there a season ? I'mfrom fla. And just like girly says I like catchen durning spawning season.
Thanks


----------



## Gridley

wray912 said:


> please explain how they think they own the fish



They disregard the fact that they don't own them. 

And they disregard the fact that others believe they should be honoring the intent of the regulations which define these fish as brood stock, consistent with the real world biology of it.


----------



## Gridley

doomtrpr_z71 said:


> The mortality rate was only 15% before circle hooks, with circle hooks it's like 4%. And the majority of mortality is from hook positioning, so fish with circle hooks and stop worrying about it. You must be kin to old dead river.



This is a good example of the justification and rationalization I've been talking about.


----------



## Gridley

kmckinnie said:


> I've been red fishen for awhile now & I'm a little confused on something. What is this slot size thing ya'll talking about ? And is there a season ? I'mfrom fla. And just like girly says I like catchen durning spawning season.
> Thanks



As far as I know, FL has a slot regulation. If you don't know that you must not have read your State regs.

"Slot" is a slang term used to define the minimum and maximum keeper. Too short is a release fish, and too long is also a mandatory release fish. In between - the slot - is a keeper, which is optional.


----------



## wray912

Gridley said:


> This is a good example of the justification and rationalization I've been talking about.



at least hes showing a basis for his argument...from what i can tell you have the typical liberal mind set of i dont like it so nobody can do it and when you are faced with facts you dismiss it as opinions and justification and you refuse to acknowledge the other side of the story and your mind is made up and you dont wanna play anymore


----------



## kmckinnie

Gridley said:


> As far as I know, FL has a slot regulation. If you don't know that you must not have read your State regs.



Never gave it much thought, I see others keepin them so I figguared I'd keep what we could eat. Wow no wonder my Dad makes me hide them. I was thinken he didn't want folks knowen we had a good spot.


----------



## Gridley

My basis is simple. The targeted fish are defined and regulated as brood stock, and for good reason. The harassing of them is defilement of the intent to protect these fish as brood stock. It's disrespect for the fish themselves, the biology of it, and the regulation intended for us all.


----------



## Gridley

kmckinnie said:


> Never gave it much thought, I see others keepin them so I figguared I'd keep what we could eat. Wow no wonder my Dad makes me hide them. I was thinken he didn't want folks knowen we had a good spot.



Are you messing with us?  I hope so.


----------



## wray912

Gridley said:


> My basis is simple. The targeted fish are defined and regulated as brood stock, and for good reason. The harassing of them is defilement of the intent to protect these fish as brood stock.



he just showed you the numbers that state that 94% of the fish are released unharmed...sharks and parasites kill more of those fish than fisherman...but again your mind is made up you refuse to consider the facts you will pass this off as justification and be mad at all us rednecks because you cant figure out how to catch em


----------



## doomtrpr_z71

Gridley said:


> My basis is simple. The targeted fish are defined and regulated as brood stock, and for good reason. The harassing of them is defilement of the intent to protect these fish as brood stock. It's disrespect for the fish themselves, the biology of it, and the regulation intended for us all.



You have no recourse to the mortality yet talk about biology. Yet, I have no issue with this and Im no guide. I'll go out on a limb and bet I have a far better background in biology as well.


----------



## kmckinnie

Not really. I will never fry up another batch of red row again.We always kept the row & fried it.


----------



## Gridley

I'm wondering if the mortality rate of catch and release, on the scale seen herein, is included in the scientific study supporting the renewability of the resource. To me, for it to mean anything, it would have to be included. If the background study assumes the incidental catch and release associated with a scientific mortality rate - that's one thing - but if the support for the regs do not acknowledge the loophole and the deliberate targeting of these fish, then ?????

So, what I'm saying there and your harping about the mortality rate, is that you are diffusing the issue. Regardless of whether you are a biologist or not, we all know that biology is part of it. The mortality rate may be or may not be. It doesn't matter anyway, if you are looking at this as purely an ethical issue, without all the rationalizations and justifications.

These fish are identified as brood stock and it's not the same thing as a bunch of bream on the bed. They are specifically protected because this species is particularly vulnerable from the brood stock perspective.


----------



## wray912

Gridley said:


> I'm wondering if the mortality rate of catch and release, on the scale seen herein, is included in the scientific study supporting the renewability of the resource. To me, for it to mean anything, it would have to be included. If the background study assumes the incidental catch and release associated with a scientific mortality rate - that's one thing - but if the support fot the regs do not acknowledge the loophole and the deliberate targeting of these fish, then ?????



If it was detrimental to the brooding population there would be no slot reds to catch...that in and of it self should answer your question but im sure thats not good enough


----------



## Gridley

More accurately said - if it is detrimental to the reproductive potential of the species in a given area, the effect would show up in the quantity of the slot reds. 

The purpose of identifying such fish as brood stock is specifically tied to the desire for sustainable reproductive capacity of the species in the given area.

The targeting of these fish trumps the brood stock, sustainability, reproductive capacity concept in favor of something else. It's a two sided contradictory coin, having it both ways at the expense of the foremost intent.


----------



## Scrapy

I feel your pain. When I'm spawnin I don't even want room service knockin.


----------



## doomtrpr_z71

Gridley said:


> I'm wondering if the mortality rate of catch and release, on the scale seen herein, is included in the scientific study supporting the renewability of the resource. To me, for it to mean anything, it would have to be included. If the background study assumes the incidental catch and release associated with a scientific mortality rate - that's one thing - but if the support for the regs do not acknowledge the loophole and the deliberate targeting of these fish, then ?????
> 
> So, what I'm saying there and your harping about the mortality rate, is that you are diffusing the issue. Regardless of whether you are a biologist or not, we all know that biology is part of it. The mortality rate may be or may not be. It doesn't matter anyway, if you are looking at this as purely an ethical issue, without all the rationalizations and justifications.
> 
> These fish are identified as brood stock and it's not the same thing as a bunch of bream on the bed. They are specifically protected because this species is particularly vulnerable from the brood stock perspective.


From the GA dnr management plan
Both private boat anglers and for-hire fishers more frequently target adult red
drum during the post-spawning period from September through November.


----------



## Gridley

Alright. That's good to know. So what that means is they figure in the mortality rate, given the pressure.  That also means that if the effect is enough, the slot will change, which translates to a direct effect on the number of keepers.

Again, this is about a balance between what the public wants and the biology of it. If the public has a tolerance for the targeting of brood stock, then it translates into the regs, and the sustainability math of the scientists.  It's more about politics than biology.


----------



## wray912

Well being that you are goin to dismiss anything anyone has to say on the subject that you dont agree with and you will keep stating the same statement over and over again ill juat let you be mad forever i tried to save you from it but i cant help you sir... Got one last question you dont duck hunt or have any plans on doin so in the forseeable future do you?


----------



## Nicodemus

Gridley, Paul Prudhomme is probably not one of your favorite people either, is he?


----------



## teethdoc

See Mel Brooks response below.


----------



## Gridley

Nicodemus said:


> Gridley, Paul Prudhomme is probably not one of your favorite people either, is he?



It ain't personal, but I never saw the point of blackened redfish. Why burn your food and the spices too?

I like my redfish grilled or baked until just barely done, and flaky, with lemon and spices, and a side of steamed vegies. To me, redfish is one of the best eating fish there is anywhere.


----------



## Nicodemus

I like my fish fried. I bet ol` Kinnie does too.


----------



## Scrapy

Gridley said:


> It ain't personal, but I never saw the point of blackened redfish. Why burn your food and the spices too?
> 
> I like my redfish grilled or baked until just barely done, and flaky, with lemon and spices, and a side of steamed vegies. To me redfish is one of the best eating fish there is anywhere.


Then we should all have to have it that way.


----------



## Gridley

wray912 said:


> Well being that you are goin to dismiss anything anyone has to say on the subject



If I was dismissing you I wouldn't have gone to so much trouble to address you and make my point. I'm doing the opposite of dismissing you.


----------



## Gridley

Scrapy said:


> Then we should all have to have it that way.



You are entitled to your opinion. 

As long as you are not cooking MY fish.


----------



## Hornet22

Scrapy said:


> I feel your pain. When I'm spawnin I don't even want room service knockin.



Sig line rite there


----------



## wray912

Gridley said:


> If I was dismissing you I wouldn't have gone to so much trouble to address you and make my point. I'm doing the opposite of dismissing you.



You have pretty much takin every logical and factual statement that opposed your belief said you didnt agree with it without reason and tossed it asside...i would call that dismissing


----------



## Gridley

OK, call it what you want. When I start ignoring you, like starting right now, that's what I call dismissing.

I think that everything meaningful that can be said has been said on my part. Ya'll take it where you want to go with it from here on.


----------



## NCHillbilly

The reason why no one has come out in opposition to it, is probably simply that no one else feels the same way you do about it. No different than catch and release fishing for any other species of fish. I have noticed that you seem to have very strong inflexible preformed opinions. You pulled this same stuff in the hog hunting forum. In order for other people to have any respect for your opinions, you first have to show a little respect for other folks instead of coming on a forum with a different opinion than everyone else, then stating that your way is the only "right" or good" way, then stooping to personal attacks, insults, and threats when anyone disagrees with you. It's the internet. Don't take it so seriously. You will never change anyones opinion until you change your condescending attitude.


----------



## elfiii

I have never seen so much manure piled up in one thread by one person in such a short period of time. This one makes the entire Political Forum look like a Sunday School picnic.


----------



## Gridley

NCHillbilly said:


> I have noticed that you seem to have very strong inflexible preformed opinions.



That's right. I have stated that in my opinion that harassing the brood stock is not ok. And I'm not changing my mind about it. Whether you respect that or not, makes no difference. I expect disrespect for it.


----------



## Gridley

elfiii said:


> I have never seen so much manure piled up in one thread by one person in such a short period of time. This one makes the entire Political Forum look like a Sunday School picnic.



I was under the presumption that insults of another on this forum was not allowed. Are you an exception?


----------



## Gridley

NCHillbilly said:


> then stooping to personal attacks, insults, and threats when anyone disagrees with you. It's the internet. Don't take it so seriously. You will never change anyones opinion until you change your condescending attitude.



I'm the one who has suffered personal attacks and insults and threats simply because I disagree. I know I won't change anyone's mind, and it doesn't matter if I come across differently. It's the issue, not the presentation.

And yes, I use the anonymity of the internet for protection. This is not a subject that can be discussed person to person without the presence of real danger to myself. In fact, I wonder if my anonymity is really safe here.  The aggressiveness of the practitioners is something to recon with, and is bound only by the limits of imagination and rationalizations.


----------



## Jeff C.

Gridley said:


> Alright. That's good to know. So what that means is they figure in the mortality rate, given the pressure.  That also means that if the effect is enough, the slot will change, which translates to a direct effect on the number of keepers.
> 
> Again, this is about a balance between what the public wants and the biology of it. If the public has a tolerance for the targeting of brood stock, then it translates into the regs, and the sustainability math of the scientists.  It's more about politics than biology.



And you sir are in the Minority on this subject, whether it be here on a fishing forum or the law that the majority here abide by.

The law isn't based on OPINIONS such as yours.....YOU don't like it, so NO ONE ELSE should be able to do it, despite the facts as related to a study done by fisheries biologist of  the Ga. DNR.

Typical Liberal agenda!!!


----------



## Capt. Scott Griffin

Sorry Gridley for not responding to some of your earlier ramblings...I was out Bull Red Fishing.  I was just wondering where you bought your Red Fish from?  Because its obvious you havnt fished for them.  There is no grey area that we are walking catching these fish either legally or ethically except in your attempt to create an issue when there is none.  The regs state you cant keep over or under slot sized reds..thats black and white to me.  The reason for the slot is to insure there are fish in all stages of development moving up through the ecosystem.  If you want to get down to brass tacks..any fish over slot is considered a Bull Red whether they are spawning or not. 

Your real problem seems to be the fact that guides are profiting from catching fish..I really do not think its about Bull Reds.

Tarpon are targeted..Marlin..Sails...Jacks..Sharks..Goliath Grouper..Snook...just to name a few.  I would hardly call it a perversion..its a sport and Guides and Fishermen all over the world fish for them.  How sad this world would be if zealot keyboard trolls could dictate regulations based on opinion and personal beliefs without regard for anything other than a warped perception of what they think the world should be, ignoring input from anyone who disagrees with them...wait..I think we have that in DC now...lol.   

Your choice of flowery fluff words and buzz words are straight out of the PEW and Peta Handbook which I am sure you have right next to your computer for quick reference..you have gone from harrasment.human fish slime...to Buffalo..to tuna...to rape...to perversion all the while really not saying anything of any worth..and not contributing anything other than to fill a perverse need you seem to have to debate issues on subjects you know nothing about.   

Thanks for all the support and kind words from the Fishermen on this forum.  Its nice to know there are still rational brethren on this forum.  I will continue to post pics..reports..and offer advise to anyone who ask for it..as will the other guides who stepped up to the plate and defended our right to ethically fish within the law.  

Gridley....I am proud of what I do..I have the best office view in the world..and I sleep well at night and nothing you say or try to twist around makes a difference to me.  If I thought Bull Red fishing was harming the fishery..I would stop..it isnt..and we have a healthy Red Population.  

Seeing a kids face light up when he catches a fish whether its a Whiting..Trout..Red or a trophy size Bull Red is worth all the CensoredCensored we have to put up with from Left Wing Tree Huggers.  Fish on Brothers...see ya on the water.


----------



## kmckinnie

Gridley, You are ok in my book. I don't mind you don't harrass them on the bed. Kool. I fish for recreation & for something to fry in a pan. I keep what is legal & sleep good at night about it.
Carry on.


----------



## wray912

Gridley said:


> I'm the one who has suffered personal attacks and insults and threats simply because I disagree. I know I won't change anyone's mind, and it doesn't matter if I come across differently. It's the issue, not the presentation.
> 
> And yes, I use the anonymity of the internet for protection. This is not a subject that can be discussed person to person without the presence of real danger to myself. In fact, I wonder if my anonymity is really safe here.  The aggressiveness of the practitioners is something to recon with.



If you knew no one could change your mind and you can change ours then why even start it...do you just enjoy stiring the pot and makin other people mad


----------



## mark-7mag

Scrapy said:


> I feel your pain. When I'm spawnin I don't even want room service knockin.



lol


----------



## Nicodemus

Gridley said:


> I'm the one who has suffered personal attacks and insults and threats simply because I disagree. I know I won't change anyone's mind, and it doesn't matter if I come across differently. It's the issue, not the presentation.
> 
> And yes, I use the anonymity of the internet for protection. This is not a subject that can be discussed person to person without the presence of real danger to myself. In fact, I wonder if my anonymity is really safe here.  The aggressiveness of the practitioners is something to recon with.




Good grief, Gridley, nobody here is out to get you, and you are perfectly safe. Your sense of imagination is unreal. 

I suppose you`ll think this is a personal attack on you as well. It`s not.


----------



## jaymax00

I understand now where the people came from who have stopped red snapper and black sea bass fishing. And I  dont believe many of them have fished for those speices either.


----------



## Gridley

Nicodemus said:


> Good grief, Gridley, nobody here is out to get you, and you are perfectly safe. Your sense of imagination is unreal.
> 
> I suppose you`ll think this is a personal attack on you as well. It`s not.




I know what a personal attack is. Do you? I appreciate your reassurance of my safety. It's presumed that my personal info, available only to moderators, is not going to be given out to a hit man. But one never knows, Bias is bias, and the limitations on one's personal morals and conduct cannot be taken for granted and underestimated or projected to be similar to one's own. 

I have suffered real physical attacks over issues like this in the past, and know for sure it would happen again, given the chance. Being on your side of the matter, from your perspective, perhaps you see all as self limiting as to what they will or won't do. I do not believe such universal credit is due, and naive to presume.


----------



## lagrangedave

Gridley said:


> I know what a personal attack is. Do you? I appreciate your reassurance of my safety. It's presumed that my personal info, available only to moderators, is not going to be given out to a hit man. But one never knows, Bias is bias, and the limitations on one's personal morals and conduct cannot be taken for granted and underestimated or projected to be similar to one's own.
> 
> I have suffered real physical attacks over issues like this in the past, and know for sure it would happen again, give the chance.



Slow learner?


----------



## Nicodemus

Gridley said:


> I know what a personal attack is. Do you? I appreciate your reassurance of my safety. It's presumed that my personal info, available only to moderators, is not going to be given out to a hit man. But one never knows, Bias is bias, and the limitations on one's personal morals and conduct cannot be taken for granted and underestimated or projected to be similar to one's own.
> 
> I have suffered real physical attacks over issues like this in the past, and know for sure it would happen again, give the chance.





You do have a doozy of a sense of imagination if you think any member of this Staff would stoop to such a thing. All of us should take this as an insult, but we`ll just consider the source.


----------



## Capt. Scott Griffin

Gridley said:


> I'm the one who has suffered personal attacks and insults and threats simply because I disagree. I know I won't change anyone's mind, and it doesn't matter if I come across differently. It's the issue, not the presentation.
> 
> And yes, I use the anonymity of the internet for protection. This is not a subject that can be discussed person to person without the presence of real danger to myself. In fact, I wonder if my anonymity is really safe here.  The aggressiveness of the practitioners is something to recon with.




Really.....now that is funny..its just a debate right?  Now you are saying our defending of Bull Red fishing is aggressive..lol..and your defending of your view is not aggressive... Dont flatter yourself to think you are such a threat that physical harm would come your way..people see you for what you really are. End of story.


----------



## Hooked On Quack

Wow, seven pages of CRAP from the OP.


Mods and Admin, ya'll keep him around, he's mildly entertaining.


----------



## Capt. Scott Griffin

lagrangedave said:


> Slow learner?




LOL..classic


----------



## Gridley

Scrapy said:


> I feel your pain. When I'm spawnin I don't even want room service knockin.



It's a mistake to presume that I'm presenting this from the fish's perspective. I'm not trying to represent the fish. 

It's the human perspective instead - the one that thinks the brood stock should be left alone, for the sake of the fisherman. If a rancher has a herd of cows, he is certainly not going to be allowing his ranch hands to practice or have fun team roping his brood cows. It ain't prudent. Team hooking the Red brood stock is the same thing as team roping brood cows. One could argue that the cows are catch and release, and be correct, but of course that's not the issue.


----------



## Silver Bullet

It's alright.  Come down to SSI and watch them "vent" fish "the proper way" during the fall run with a filet knife because "they are bloated"...


----------



## Fuzzy D Fellers

Jim Shu?


----------



## Capt. Scott Griffin

Team hooking...diggin deep for that aint ya? Now we are on to roping cows...whats next....wait..we should ban driving cars because the Love Bugs are being executed on our wind shields and bumpers by practitioners of driving who exploit this during their mating season.


----------



## Hooked On Quack

Capt. Scott Griffin said:


> Team hooking...diggin deep for that aint ya? Now we are on to roping cows...whats next....wait..we should ban driving cars because the Love Bugs are being executed on our wind shields and bumpers by practitioners of driving who exploit this during their mating season.






OHHHHHHH SNAPPPPP, save da Luv Bugzz...



splat


----------



## Jeff C.

Gridley said:


> I know - because I know your type. I understand the threat, and that you would do ANYTHING in support of your belief, not just on this subject, and the "ANYTHING" is not limited to within the law.
> 
> When a person demonstrates the lack of ethics in one arena, it's a sure thing that the deficiency is pervasive.





Gridley said:


> What's next - manatees, deer?
> 
> I agree somewhat on the concept of catch and release, but the distinction here is the targeting of one species, and a significant segment of the species. This is not catch and release in general as you described. And this is on a large scale, conducted by those who are very proficient at it.





Gridley said:


> It was a threat.
> 
> However, I can see how I am a threat, because it should be clear that if I could I would bring a firestorm of indignant opposition to what is shown here with the over slot reds. I would spearhead it all the way to the legislature if I could.





Gridley said:


> I have not seen one post in opposition to the behavior, so it is a fair assumption that everyone herein condones it or participates in it. IMO, it's clearly not right.
> 
> I am entitled to judge people by their behavior and what they believe in, and will do it for the rest of my life, whether you approve or not.
> 
> You are right, I am accusing practically all of you of doing something that's not right, and we all know this is merely one thing. If you can justify greying the lines of right and wrong on one thing, then where are your lines?
> 
> You are either guilty directly or by association. Those who standby and watch a rape, and do nothing, are guilty too.





Gridley said:


> I was under the presumption that insults of another on this forum was not allowed. Are you an exception?



See highlighted remarks above.



Gridley said:


> I'm the one who has suffered personal attacks and insults and threats simply because I disagree. I know I won't change anyone's mind, and it doesn't matter if I come across differently. It's the issue, not the presentation.
> 
> And yes, I use the anonymity of the internet for protection. This is not a subject that can be discussed person to person without the presence of real danger to myself. In fact, I wonder if my anonymity is really safe here.  The aggressiveness of the practitioners is something to recon with, and is bound only by the limits of imagination and rationalizations.



Again, see red highlighted remarks above!


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## NCHillbilly

Jeff C. said:


> Again, see red highlighted remarks above!




Chief, I bet you lay awake at night trying to figure out more efficient ways of emotionally scarring our wildlife.


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## Scrapy

I thought you live in Canada Gridly. Have you moved here yet? Don't want to know where exactly just thought you were in Canada.


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## lagrangedave

Scrapy=hitman


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## JB0704

Migmack said:


> Jim Shu?



Jim shu was likeable in his own way.  Polls are always fun.

As far as the thread goes, I hate releasing over slot reds too.....fine eatin fish.  Watching them swim away hurts a little.


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## Capt. Scott Griffin

hmmm...anyone come to mind?

Alarmist personality

The alarmist person is subject to the cognitive distortion of catastrophizing – of always expecting the worst of possible futures.[2]

They may also be seeking to preserve feelings of omnipotence by generating anxiety and concern in others.[


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## wray912

JB0704 said:


> Jim shu was likeable in his own way.  Polls are always fun.
> 
> As far as the thread goes, I hate releasing over slot reds too.....fine eatin fish.  Watching them swim away hurts a little.



Thats the way to end targeting of over slot reds....GET RID OF THE SLOT


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## ratherbefishin

Dang Gridley, you that upset because you didn't get that Spongebob kiddie reel for Xmas ?


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## jfish

WOW I had to catch up............ and the roping cows comment.  He gave me heck for talking about other species and other wildlife last night...and for your information I know quite a lot about roping cows.  steers. and bulls.   

I would even offer a trip for either..redfishing or roping.  boats in the back yard and so is the arena.  I just gathered the horses shall I saddle an extra?  

I am gonna say not sure  you would recover from either......


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## Jeff C.

NCHillbilly said:


> Chief, I bet you lay awake at night trying to figure out more efficient ways of emotionally scarring our wildlife.



 

I am sleep deprived on a reglar basis!


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## doomtrpr_z71

Gridley said:


> I know what a personal attack is. Do you? I appreciate your reassurance of my safety. It's presumed that my personal info, available only to moderators, is not going to be given out to a hit man. But one never knows, Bias is bias, and the limitations on one's personal morals and conduct cannot be taken for granted and underestimated or projected to be similar to one's own.
> 
> I have suffered real physical attacks over issues like this in the past, and know for sure it would happen again, given the chance. Being on your side of the matter, from your perspective, perhaps you see all as self limiting as to what they will or won't do. I do not believe such universal credit is due, and naive to presume.


Considering your location, I doubt this site is too big of a threat versus your surroundings.


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## teethdoc

Yep, because reeling in a fish connected to a barbed piece of metal is not bothering the fish most of the time, it's only unethical if it's while they are spawning.


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## rhbama3

This thread has gone far enough and i see no point in continuing it.
THREAD CLOSED


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