# How SHOULD we determine effective range?



## ChrisSpikes (Aug 19, 2010)

What is the correct way to determine your maximum effective range for hunting?  My thoughts on this topic have changed greatly over the years.  

When I first started bowhunting, it was commonly accepted that the ability to put 4 out of 5 arrows in a standard paper plate (which is somewhere around 9” in diameter) was adequate for deer.  I’m not exactly sure where this idea originated, or what logic was behind it.  Maybe it was the thought that the plate would fit inside the chest cavity of a deer, so anything inside it would be lethal.  Regardless, the standard was formed, and it gave you a tangible reference to your skill level.

Before long, 3D targets started to become popular.  With their clearly marked kill zones, which were fairly anatomically correct, they left no doubt to the lethality of each arrow launched at them.

Many people began to accept the “8 ring” as the new standard.  Four out of five arrows into the 8 at a given distance, and they were good to go.  But honestly, what just happened?  The previous standard for hunting accuracy (the paper plate), which was marginal at best, was just increased in size by nearly 30%!

This seems to be widely accepted among the traditional community.  It’s common to see a scoring system at tournaments, many set up by bowhunting organizations, where anything within the vitals is awarded the maximum number of points.  Where a high liver hit is valued the same as a shot through the top of the heart.  Is this honestly what we’re striving for?  Are we preparing ourselves for success, or setting ourselves up for failure?

I think a new standard needs to be set.  Shooting basketball-size groups at a given distance, to me, says you’re prepared to do only one thing.  Practice some more!

A more realistic view, in my opinion, is considering 4 out of 5 shots in the 10 ring a benchmark for hunting accuracy.  And this is with the 5th shot being a very near miss.

Let’s face it, there are very, and I mean VERY, few people who shoot as well under pressure as they do during practice.  There is an overwhelming tendency for form to break down when someone is under stress.  Four inch groups can quickly turn into 8 when nerves are frayed, and your heart rate is going through the roof.

This, along with the fact that animals aren’t static figures awaiting the arrival of the arrow, should be sufficient to make us realize that we need to expect more from ourselves.

How far is your effective range?

I don’t know how many times I have read threads pertaining to this on various stickbow forums.  The vast majority of folks who respond to this question say “20 yards”.  It seems to be a magic distance where people seem comfortable with their abilities.  But to be honest, in the time I’ve been involved with shooting traditional bows, I’ve seen only a handful of people who, in my opinion, have the ability to consistently make clean killing shots at that distance.

What information is being used to determine the greatest distance at which they will allow themselves to shoot?  I think if a hunter will limit his or herself to the distance at which they can routinely hit the “10 ring” on a 3D deer, they will be a whole lot closer to the truth on what is their effective range.


----------



## Jake Allen (Aug 19, 2010)

Good post Chris.

My comfort zone is 50 feet, (thats 16+ yards, TaTonka).
Past that distance, I have a hard time seeing the pocket, crease,
or 10 ring. As you said, this is with a static target.
I hope all the practice this year shooting at bumble bees, grasshoppers and at a butterfly or two will help me steady in this fall, on a animal that can move
at an second. Those dang tree rats swap positions
in a hurry.


----------



## bam_bam (Aug 19, 2010)

Great post chris, I have to say my max is 17-18 yards and I am gonna try to stay in that range. i hae started doing something different than just standing shooting at a dummy deer. i got a orange golf ball and i just throw it around the yard and shoot at it. i was really surprised how many times I hit the ball and how really close I come to hitting it. it has really helped me stare at the one spot and not the whole target.


----------



## LongBow01 (Aug 19, 2010)

I am comfortable at 15 yards and very accurate at 10 anything past 15 I can usally hit 2-3 out of 5. I think I can get in the 20 yard range with some more arrow tuning but I still dont know that I would take a 20 yard hunting shot. I reckon thats why I ain't got a Bow Kill yet Gota work on gettin closer ........ By the way Great post.


----------



## Apex Predator (Aug 19, 2010)

Mine varies Chris, but like you I strive for something better than 8-10" groups.  I'm more of a 6" group kinda guy, cause I like to kill little pigs.   If I miss my spot by more than 3", I'm shooting too far.  My kill range starts at 15 yards.  After taking a few stump shots it may increase to 20-25 depending on how confident I feel.  If my heads right, I can make those 25 yard shots all day long.  When an animal is standing in front of me, my head is rarely "right"!  LOL


----------



## belle&bows (Aug 19, 2010)

In prepping for deer season I only shoot into targets( the ones we used last year for the on-line tourney). Don't have a 3d target. I dont worry so much about a heart shot but TRY to put the arrows in the middle of the lungs. I also shoot for those 6" groups. At this point I'm concentrating on the 1st bh shot of the day into that spot. With all that said, I feel very comfortable inside of 17-18 yds. BUT... cause of where I have stand locations I can't even see that far. I'm looking for those 12yarders

Now on turkeys, I can't tell you. They continue to whupp my rear. Guess I'm gonna hafta break down and get one of them popup blinds next spring... then maybe I might have some luck at 6 yds


----------



## Tikki (Aug 19, 2010)

During the summer I have been shooting a foam filled 2 liter bottle during lunch and seem to do a fairly good job of hitting where I intend to.  I also use foam filled 20 oz. coke bottles.  For some reason my range and accurracy are further and better using these targets. When I shoot my Rhinehart, I feel that my range decreases in order to keep it in the bullseye. Maybe target panic, but I am consistant at 12-15yds.


----------



## robert carter (Aug 19, 2010)

I like ten or twelve yards myself.Twenty is a very long shot for me in the woods.RC


----------



## fflintlock (Aug 19, 2010)

For anyone that came over to one of those shoots I used to hold, that's why I had all those little stuffed animals laying around. I seem to do better with those, then with a big ole target setting out there. I just recently picked back up my bow. I walk out to about 16 to 18 paces, nock an arrow and let loose. If I hit that little animal in the kill zone 3 times in a row, then I feel I have achieved what I need to, to be able to make that shot in the woods. I will move around some to do it from different angles and unknown distances. I then start shooting at the blob, but just for getting the exercise and muscle memory I need. I don't seem to be consistent shooting at it for some reason though. My personal limit is nothing over 20 yards out, for hunting. Although, I have killed a few squirrels out to 23 paces, lucky, maybe.  But I do a lot better with a few shots, as opposed to shooting for a couple of hours when I practice. My dad and his uncles use to tell me, when you can keep'em inside a coffee can, then your ready to go. Years ago, I use to stick a snuff can in the twine, of a bale of straw, and that was my target. I don't think I'm quit that good any more, since I don't hunt and shoot as much as I use to.


----------



## ChrisSpikes (Aug 19, 2010)

I had originally intended this to be a discussion about how we, as a group of traditional bowhunters, should determine our effective hunting range.  By some of the responses, I realize the way I had initially worded the title had some folks responding on how they individually determined their personal range.  I have since gone back and changed the title to reflect my original intent.

Carry on...


----------



## slughunter821 (Aug 19, 2010)

I've been using the paper plate method and feel confident hitting that area at 15 yards.  However, I'm sure there is more stress involved pulling back on a live animal, so I'd like to keep hunting shots to about 12 yds, if I get a chance this year.


----------



## Dennis (Aug 19, 2010)

I likem real close, but feel im ready out to 18 Yards and i have made shots a lots farther than that on game, but if i get to chose and i can get drawn back i likem about 10 -12 yards


----------



## LongBow01 (Aug 19, 2010)

I think 4 out of 5 in a 3-4" group is good on targets since we know there has to be a little room for error on live animals If you can do that on a target then you oughta be able to get it in the kill on a live animal.


----------



## trad bow (Aug 19, 2010)

A lot depends on whether the animal is on full alert ready to jump thru its skin or is it just casually feeding along calm like. I have passed on animals that were nervous at ten and shot them after they calmed down at twenty. There are too many varibles involved with just using a distance justification to find an effective range. Time of day, shadows, your mood, the animal and many others that need to be taken in account at the time of the shot. By all means practice at the longest yardage you can because it will raise your confidence on the dunk shots. Effective range will vary greatly between hunters so a magic effective range in my opinion couldn't be wrote in stone. I will say that for the majority of hunters it is way closer than they will admit.


----------



## Al33 (Aug 19, 2010)

trad bow said:


> A lot depends on whether the animal is on full alert ready to jump thru its skin or is it just casually feeding along calm like. I have passed on animals that were nervous at ten and shot them after they calmed down at twenty. There are too many varibles involved with just using a distance justification to find an effective range. Time of day, shadows, your mood, the animal and many others that need to be taken in account at the time of the shot. By all means practice at the longest yardage you can because it will raise your confidence on the dunk shots. Effective range will vary greatly between hunters so a magic effective range in my opinion couldn't be wrote in stone. I will say that for the majority of hunters it is way closer than they will admit.



What he said.


----------



## Gordief (Aug 19, 2010)

4 out of 5 arrows ?
what about where the first one lands .


----------



## ChrisSpikes (Aug 19, 2010)

trad bow said:


> Effective range will vary greatly between hunters so a magic effective range in my opinion couldn't be wrote in stone..


 Jeff, I agree, but I'm not speaking of a range.  I'm referring to a METHOD for a hunter to judge his proficiency.  



trad bow said:


> I will say that for the majority of hunters it is way closer than they will admit.


100% agree.  For a reference, the 10 ring on a 3D deer is roughly 4.5 inches in diameter.  How many of you guys on here who feel comfortable out to 15-20 yards, can stand at that distance, in your backyard, under no pressure, and consistently stack arrows in that circle?  Now be realistic....a quick look back at some of the online tournament targets will verify.

When you inject the excitement and intensity of shooting at a live animal, those 4.5 inch groups are gonna really open up.


----------



## Rare Breed (Aug 19, 2010)

If I think the shot is with in my capabilty, then I shoot. The one thing I do know is that I won't ever kill one if I don't shoot.


----------



## PAPALAPIN (Aug 19, 2010)

One thing I haven't seen here is the difference between practicing at ground level, and then climbing into a tree stand 10 to 15 feet off the ground, or higher.

It may be a bit off topic considering the question Chris asked, but if you aim at a down angle the same way you aim for a level shot, you're gonna hit high.

The rule of thumb in the old days was "when on high, aim low".   Actually, you will have the same effect if you are aiming up at that same angle.  It has to do with the different way gravity effects an arrow in a level shot vs shooting up or down.

Pardon me if I swayed too far from the true topic at hand, but it is an important thing to consider.

I know, I know


----------



## Badddwithabow (Aug 19, 2010)

well i've done this for years with my wheelie bow and i will do it this year with by longbow.. i completely quit shooting groups the 1st of sept i will only shoot 1 and go pull it or just walk out fling 1 arra and go back in .... 

I shoot bright feathers/nocks so i feel like a target in the target isn't realistic.this MAKES me pic a spot on the animal and focus on it.

but if i walk out and shoot 1 arra @ 20 yards and 10 ring it and i can do that say... 80% of the time then i'm happy. 

Something else i do is shoot at a lot longer distances than i hunt. I bust my tail to get close like 10-15 yards so I've been flingin alot of arras at 30-35 yards then when you scoot in to 20 its like a whole other game then 15 yards is a breeze...


----------



## Apex Predator (Aug 19, 2010)

PAPALAPIN said:


> One thing I haven't seen here is the difference between practicing at ground level, and then climbing into a tree stand 10 to 15 feet off the ground, or higher.
> 
> It may be a bit off topic considering the question Chris asked, but if you aim at a down angle the same way you aim for a level shot, you're gonna hit high.
> 
> ...



At 20-25 yards this difference is not noticeable to most.  Most folks have bad form when shooting from a stand, and that most certainly will cause you to shoot high.


----------



## PAPALAPIN (Aug 19, 2010)

Marty

I must be one of them "most folks"


----------



## longbowdave1 (Aug 19, 2010)

chris, good post! i think the 3-d scoring where any vitals gets maximum score is to simpify the scoring process. i think you are correct about the the need for practice and not accepting large groups as "ok".

 when i practice from the ground, i usually have 5 or 6 arrows in my side quiver. i like to start at maybe 10 yards or so and shoot one arrow. then move back a bit and shoot another single arrow, repeating this process until i'm back about 20 to 25yards on the last arrow. what i hope to see is a tight grouping of arrows even though they were all shot from different random distances. the next set of arrows, i start at twenty five and work toward the target. still hoping to see a tight grouping of arrows.
 i think this helps me concentrate on each shot and helps to train the instinctive eye. it also eliminates just emptying your quiver without putting much thought into each shot.
 since swithching to this system for practice i also notice the first shots, whether practice or in the field, are are better placed arrows.


----------



## dutchman (Aug 19, 2010)

Gordief said:


> 4 out of 5 arrows ?
> what about where the first one lands .



That'd be THE one that counts, wouldn't it?

I may as well quit...


----------



## TGUN (Aug 19, 2010)

My personal goal is consistant (80%) FIRST ARROW shot in an area I can cover with my fist (wrist to nuckles) and ALMOST NEVER a shot more than 6 inches from what I was aiming at. Fist is about the heart, with the occasional wide shot never being out of the lungs. Right now that is about 23-25 paces for me.


----------



## robert carter (Aug 19, 2010)

I think the 4 out of 5 in the plate or "kill" tells you that your to far away. If you are happy with 4 of 5 your saying its alright to wound 1 of the 5 critters you shoot at.
  When you hit anchor on a critter you have to know. All arrows we send don`t fly true everytime but knowing your gonna miss 1 in 5 at a given range tells me I gotta be where I can hit 5 of 5 in the yard..RC


----------



## ChrisSpikes (Aug 19, 2010)

TGUN said:


> My personal goal is consistant (80%) FIRST ARROW shot in an area I can cover with my fist (wrist to nuckles) and ALMOST NEVER a shot more than 6 inches from what I was aiming at. Fist is about the heart, with the occasional wide shot never being out of the lungs. Right now that is about 23-25 paces for me.



That's World Class.


----------



## LanceColeman (Aug 19, 2010)

Dadgum!! sounds ta me like some of yall need to be shootin IBO worlds! Yall do realize the difference betwixed 20yds and 20 feet right??


Like Carter I accept nothing but perfection on my part. Or atleast that is what I am striving for. because there's way way WAY too much that can go wrong on the other end for me to raise the odds by allowing it to be wrong on mine.

As far as determining "effective RANGE" I believe I prefer "determinind effectiveNESS" Because I do not have a range. I've spent enough hours in trees and hunting and watching deer and their actions to have me certified as crazy. I mean seriously. think about how many I've killed. and think about how many you see and do not get a shot at?? yea I've saw ALOT of deers in dem der woods. And sometimes the deers actions and mood seem to be perfect for me to pick that pocket when it looks the other way at 30yds when the lil voice says shoot. And sometimes it's mood and actions tell me to not even THINK about trying to draw my bow when it's not 10 feet from my treestand.

So now lets talk about "effectiveness" Every year about...... NOW. first thing i do every morning when I get up is "pick a spot" Let me explain. I've not peed yet, I've not had any coffee.....I'm usually in my undies and my ol bones are still crackin and poppin as I sling the back door open. and right out there in the yard is a target.... and I gotta "lung it" at a bare minimum This gets to me to be almost as ritualistic as my morning coffee or pee break. Try it tomorrow morning... see how easy it is. it's NOT! You are NOT ready to feel that wieght on those fingers and that back and yer brain is still half asleep and not focusing. This tells you if your form and accuracy are beaten in to your brain.

Second test exhaust yourself..... to the point of very heavy breathing. jumping jacks, run in circles, push ups, anything to make you stand there huffing and puffing hard... now pick that spot....and lung it.

Absolutely nothing can prepare you for shooting an animal LIKE shooting an animal. But you still must know your limitations.. And boys... I hate to hurt feelings.... But 3 outa 5 in a paper plate at 20yds?? All that tells me is ya need to practice more, and get deer closer.

I read it on alot of sites every season. how do I know I'm ready. how far should I try and should one, how do you determine your effective range. And in all honesty?? I agree with you Chris, there needs to be a better thing to tell them on how to judge their effectiveness. Because the ol pie plate just doesn't cut it with me.


----------



## gregg dudley (Aug 20, 2010)

longbowdave1 said:


> chris, good post! i think the 3-d scoring where any vitals gets maximum score is to simpify the scoring process. .




Yep!  Thats why we use a 5 and 10 system....easy math!  Never have understood why tbg uses 3 and 5

Get close then get closer....


----------



## ChrisSpikes (Aug 20, 2010)

longbowdave1 said:


> chris, good post! i think the 3-d scoring where any vitals gets maximum score is to simpify the scoring process.


I'm sure you're right Dave, but c'mon, it's simple 2nd grade addition.

I think a good scoring system, with easy math, would be 10 / 5 / -5.


----------



## Al33 (Aug 20, 2010)

> What is the correct way to determine your maximum effective range for hunting?



I suppose it was inevitable that we would address 3D scoring methods versus effective  hunting accuracy because after all many use it to help determine what their effective range might be, but the truth is it is no more a better method than shooting at a paper plate, plastic bottles, or anything else one might want to shoot at.

I am not sure exactly what the cause may be but when shooting at something on the ground versus a stand up target where the bullseye is a few feet off the ground it is a lot easier to hit for me than the bullseye. I suspect it has something to do with the horizontal plane of the ground making it easier for the eye to to convert the distance thus making more accurate shots. I know that I can often hit a can or water bottle on the ground (let's sat at 15 yards) solidly and consistently but if I put that bottle up on the face of a target a few feet off the ground my hit numbers decrease, consequently, I am much more confident hitting a squirrel on the ground at 20 yards than I am the kill area on a deer on the ground at twenty yards because the kill area is above ground level assuming the deer is standing up.

I am of the opinion there are simply too many variables to establish any kind of standard that will become a shoe that fits every foot. As I have stated before, shooting at foam or anything else is not the same as shooting at flesh. You can shoot 3D targets and courses and become an expert shot on 3D targets or you can shoot at live critters and become a good shot on live critters. Of course different animals have different size kill zones so a lot of what one might call his or her effective range will depend on the animal he/she is shooting at also. There are some world class skeet shooters that may have a tough time getting their limit on a dove field while the good ol boy next to him who has never shot trap or skeet is knocking them out of the air left and right. Chances are the good ol boy has more experience shooting at the real thing.

I am always concerned about standards and expectations we place on ourselves when it comes to hunting, especially with a traditional bow. I wonder how someone new to our sport sorts through all of these expectations to measure up to a point he feels he can go hunt something with his new bow without getting slammed by his peers or at the very least feeling guilty about hunting when others think he had no business doing so. I learned how to hunt hunting small game and had no mentors to bring me along so I did most of it alone. I learned from my experiences and yes I wounded some critters in the process. I certainly am not proud of the fact I wounded and lost any critter but the truth is that's part of hunting and of course I try hard to prevent it from happening. No one intentionally goes out to shoot an animal in the leg, at least I hope not.

I fear the expectations and standards we impose on ourselves can steal the fun out of hunting. I also think it is important to remember that it is the preparation for the hunt and the chase that is the most exciting part and not the kill. I realize that my sentiments may be viewed as less than admirable by many when I propose that someone wanting to learn to successfully hunt with a traditional bow and arrow do so and not worry too much about achieving a certain standard of performance when it comes to accuracy on any given target. If they are truly a bad shot chances are they are not going to hit the animal anyway but they will certainly learn a lot more a lot quicker by shooting at the real thing versus a man made target. 

For me, I want to keep having fun hunting and will not concern myself with what others may think is a bar I must rise above or maintain before I go. If it ain't fun and exciting what's the point in going and if if leaves me feeling guilty for trying then I shouldn't have tried it.


----------



## bam_bam (Aug 20, 2010)

LanceColeman said:


> .
> 
> So now lets talk about "effectiveness" Every year about...... NOW. first thing i do every morning when I get up is "pick a spot" Let me explain. I've not peed yet, I've not had any coffee.....I'm usually in my undies and my ol bones are still crackin and poppin as I sling the back door open. and right out there in the yard is a target.... and I gotta "lung it" at a bare minimum This gets to me to be almost as ritualistic as my morning coffee or pee break. Try it tomorrow morning... see how easy it is. it's NOT! You are NOT ready to feel that wieght on those fingers and that back and yer brain is still half asleep and not focusing. This tells you if your form and accuracy are beaten in to your brain.
> 
> Second test exhaust yourself..... to the point of very heavy breathing. jumping jacks, run in circles, push ups, anything to make you stand there huffing and puffing hard... now pick that spot....and lung it.



Now you done got me courious to see if I can do it....will post results later...


----------



## TNGIRL (Aug 20, 2010)

Gosh, I've read thru this thread twice.....with 2 cups of coffee. I've come to several conclusions......
1st is I hope I'm never hiding outside Lances backdoor some morning to see all that!!!!!
2nd I like Greg's scoring....I've shot several "ethical" shoots and it's surprising how low the scores you end with can be!!!
3rd Chris, you've made me rethink some of my distances, but those would be if I stood on a "level" horizontial plane.... I know in the woods, in a tree stand it's all down, if I'm sitting on the ground it'll be up or down maybe and if I'm "stawlking" it maybe up or down...taking all that in to consideration.....if I think too much about it all, I'd just quit and stay home. AT home, I do try to take shots that I might see in the woods, but nothing does prepare you until it's happening. I just want to kill whatever I'm aiming at. Otherwise, I have no business aiming at it. But I'm gonna miss some....and hit some badly, because the subject probably is gonna be thinking...."oh no you won't!!!"
Lastly, I like Al's thoughts best!!!! If the shoe fits then great otherwise your gonna get a blister trying to walk in someone else's size 12 boots!!! that's just my 4 cents.....


----------



## LanceColeman (Aug 20, 2010)

Tomi,

there you go again insinuatin I gottaa big butt!

Bam,

The whole ritual to me is to remove a practice type shot scenerio. Dazed, half asleep not functioning right, or exhausted, tired, and high on heart rate. 100 times out of 100 there's never a time when you are faced with shooting a white tail and have the convenience of talking it over with the guy shooting with you, or the relaxation of being in your own back yard standing in perfect stance and form.

Adreneline rushes do strange things to the body. Key word being rush. Thats what normally happens. We rush the shot. Like I said there IS NO true practice for shooting live game EXCEPT shooting live game. But form work, 3-D shoots, practice sessions in your backyard.. all these do is build your form, your accuracy and your confidence. All of which are needed. but all of which can be quickly removed from you by nothing more than a doe at 15yds.

AL,

As bad as I wanna agree with you?? I can't. I do believe there should be a benchmark we all should adhere to, I do believe new guys and even those of us that aren't new, should reach for a much higher standard. If "fun" and fun alone is what it's all about?? then  one needs to stick with targets. Because there's no fun, no romance and no laughs in a gut shot 8pt.

As traditional bowhunters we are accustomed to seeing way more animals than we shoot. "WHY?" Because we wait for the optimum shot, because they are out of range, because the "if I can see it I can kill it" mentality is gone. With that said we have the least desirable weapon for the kill at all cost mentality. Sadly it's more about bragging rights than the actual skill set involved with many. Or the pressuring desire to impress peers with kills.

Regardless of the reasons and even the fun that is involved in hunting with the traditional bow. There is still no excuse for NOT preparing one self for the maximum efficiency one can muster. This means being as precise a shot as you possibly can. A "fling and a prayer, hail marry last ditch effort shot" usually results in one of those threads that start off "lost him!! man I'm sick to my stomach!"

Mickey "the Ferret" Lotz has killed more deer and big bucks with a lil ol selfbow than most guys could ever strive for (I'm talkin big honkin northern rack attack bucks with a lil ol 40# osage bow and cane shafts). He's been at this an awful awful long time..... And Mickey will be the first to tell you, "I am deadly at 10yds." And he usually will not shoot at one past 15yds. Why?? because the man knows his limitations. He shoots tournaments and 3-d and shoots out as far as he can see them. but when it comes to hunting?? He respects his limitations and follows them.

My point?? First thing one has to do is REALIZE their limitations (meaning you need a benchmark or something to strive for) Second thing one needs to do is respect them and not pass them. Meaning if you don't think you can letta deer walk because it's outside your effective range?? You need to hunt with another easier weapon.

As far as shootin from a tree?? I keep a platform out back, a deck off my barn, as well as a ladder stood up. I've spent so much of my life working with my feet off the ground that hieghts and angles don;t bother me in the least. And the key to shooting from up high is all in your body english and how you "tilt" your shooting plane as opposed to just "bending yer neck" I shoot better from elevations than I do off the ground.


----------



## Badddwithabow (Aug 20, 2010)

I have a question since we are talking about shootin here does any one else not get shook up until AFTER the shot? I've always been this way from compounds to this turkey season with trad gear...

In my mind i have practiced and practiced and practiced, every scenario, every angle so as far as the shot that is routine i should be able to sink a shot without thinkin much about it. Now as soon as the arra hits home i come unglued. 

Back to the topic Lance i believe you talk about this "light going off" well thats how i feel. I don't know yardage like some do i just wait til the moment is right. I mean one of my favorite things to do is take 1/2 dozen arras and throw em all around with my back to the target. i then do 10-15 pushups and sprint to an arra knock it with my back away from the target turn and pick a spot. This is a blast and it tests everything. but with all this practice when i have a critter in range I know my form is where it needs to be.


----------



## LanceColeman (Aug 20, 2010)

Brandon,

I honestly think if someone would come up with an "archery assault" course, or Archery Obsticle course such as some of todays top pistol shooters run?? It would help many many people in there shooting.

When we were stationed in England I was a range captain to the largest archery club in the country. we had three times the people show up for our shoots as the nationals did. I set up targets. it was hard to relay to people from a country that didn't hunt about "why" I set the targets up like I did. But our "league" consisted mainly of American GIs knew exactly why I did it that way. They would ask "You have this target set to where I have to lean out and kneel to see the scoring zone.!" I would say, "No I have that target situated to where you are going to have to adjust from your normal target stance in order to effective hit the KILL zone." After all.........3-D targets and course ARE supposed to be set up as hunting scenerios and practice for hunting are they not?

As far as nerves??
My breathe sucks down to the bottom of my stomach and my knees shake the absolute instant I see deer hair coming my way. I get that "oh man.......here we go. It's happening" Feeling......... BUT.....Once they close in and I kow they are actually coming to where I am at. Once it's true in my head that I have done my homework and this deer is about to walk right through where my scouting has said it should walk through...... I go numb........ sometimes I think I go almost deaf as well..... "It's like all I can hear is my own breath (and it strikes me as too loud)" Once I place tension on the string it's all brain dead.......There's not a thought in my head. only a focus on a small crease, a hair, or an imaginary spot where my arrow needs to be.

NOW..... from the time the arrow impacts the animal until the time it either stops moving or goes out of site?? nothing changes. The second it hits the ground or gets out of site?? There's no way I can get out of the tree right then.. because I'm some kinda seriously shook up.


----------



## Badddwithabow (Aug 20, 2010)

LoL an archery assault course now that sounds like a good investment! It'd be a blast to shoot a round of targets for time+score. Of course targets would have to be scored reverse so the 12 would be a 1 that way lowest score wins... lol... 

I'm with ya on the shot so far i hardly every remember the shot its all just oooo mann heres a deer, ooo its in my hole, whackkkkk there it goes... but i'm with ya i have to sit for a while.. 

I'm gonna be a pain for myself i just bought a gorilla camera arm i'm gonna try to get my 1st ever trad kill on film thats gonna keep from lettin me go brain dead. I'm gonna start practicing with it as well.... I will be ready opening day


----------



## TNGIRL (Aug 20, 2010)

I did Not Lance...."the "all that" I'm referring to is holding in the water....then the shooting then the exercising then the shooting then maybe getting rid of the water.....I'm just saying seems pretty scarey to me for sure!!!!! And what if you have a pain or a cramp....you gonna be hitting the 10 ringer then or me hiding in the lilac bush north of the barn???????
(sorry Chris for the little hijack OK?)


----------



## LanceColeman (Aug 20, 2010)

ooohhh...... ya mean the p.p. dance!!


----------



## ChrisSpikes (Aug 20, 2010)

TNGIRL said:


> ....I've shot several "ethical" shoots and it's surprising how low the scores you end with can be!!!



Tomi, that's exactly the kind of eye opener I think most traditional bowhunters need.



When someone walks through a course and shoots a high lung hit on the first target, they think "Alright, I got 'em".  

They walk to the next target, shoot one back low through the liver, same thought.

Next target, they shoot one forward up around the shoulder.  Same thought.

Next target, they shoot one right through the top of the heart.

They look down at their score card, and so far they're perfect.  What they don't realize is that out of those 4 targets, out in the woods, under normal hunting conditions, they've got one "for sure" dead animal.  And 3 other good chances for long, hard tracking jobs that may or may not have a critter at the end of it.



But, this is not about tournament scoring.  The main point I've been trying to make through all of this is that most traditional shooters have a false sense of what their effective range is under hunting conditions.

Robert Carter is one of the very best traditional shooters I've ever seen.  And he won't hesitate to tell you that anything over 15 yards is a stretch.


----------



## TNGIRL (Aug 20, 2010)

I understand what you are saying Chris. I haven't killed anything with my bow yet. But I don't see me shooting at anything except an armadillo or tree rat over 20 yds at all. But my wariness for it comes from lack of kills rather than any sense of false intelligence on my part. I don't want to wound a critter that I never can find. I do know and admit my limitations for sure. But I expect when and if that chance comes for me....I'm gonna "think" the distance is closer just like I'm gonna"think" it's a HUGE deer when it might just be a bambi!!!!
There's NOTHING more humbling than an ethical shoot!!! It'll correct your impressions of your shooting right quick!!!!


----------



## Al33 (Aug 20, 2010)

ChrisSpikes said:


> The main point I've been trying to make through all of this is that most traditional shooters have a false sense of what their effective range is under hunting conditions.



No doubt about that Chris and I have been guilty of doing so myself. Your point has been made well sir!

I am sure some will read more into my previous posts than I wished and may have the perception I advocate hunting without preparation or practice but that is not the case at all. Certainly a certain amount of proficiency should be attained before shooting at live animals but folks have got to start somewhere and what might be a standard for a more experienced hunter will not be the same for someone new to the sport or a kid trying to learn. These standards or benchmarks can only be decided by the conscience of the one doing the hunting not to mention what he may be hunting. Regardless of whether anyone agrees or not we do do place higher priorities for different animals we may shoot at. We might take a longer and less likely of a hit shot at an armadillo than we would at a deer. Even with deer we may take a less than for certain shot in a given set of circumstances. I'm not saying we should, but I know I have been guilty of it and I expect most hunters have also. 

What I am trying to get across, in response to your original question, is that IMHO, there cannot be a set of benchmarks that covers every hunting scenario and certainly not everyone. I do believe your question and the responses to this thread does give cause for those who have read it to reflect and evaluate their own abilities and to set their own benchmarks which is a good thing for sure.


----------



## LanceColeman (Aug 20, 2010)

I think you just hit the nail on the head Al. What someone like Chris Spikes or Robert Carter views as a good solid clean shot, SHOULD NOT and IS NOT the same thing as what someone who just started shooting a longbow this spring should view as a solid clean kill shot.

I think the fact that so many say "5 out of 5 in a pie plate all the time sort of sets this standard that makes new guys or people with less experience believe... They can shoot deer at 20yds no issue. When the cold hard truth of the matter is it takes a TON of skill just to actually PICK A SPOT on a live deer at 15yds. Tomi actually has the right htought train on her approach. She realizes whats she's up against and she realizes what it's going to take and how tight her tolerances are. That in my opinion takes more restraint, patience and skill than learning how to shoot 40yd groups ever will.

There's two things people should take from this thread.

ONE: just because you can consistantly hit a pie plate at 25yds does NOT mean you can consistantly kill deer at 25yds. It's not a bench mark and should not give you any false pretenses. Pie plates don't raise your heart rate, don't look at you, don't duck arrows and don't have any ramifications on you if you miss it.


TWO; Notice how some of the top killers with traditional bows seem to gravitate towards and look for shots on animals LESS THAN 15YDS.

Folks thats not just some sort of added extra challenge in getting an animal that close..... Thats years and years of experience figuring out just exactly what works the best.


----------



## ChrisSpikes (Aug 20, 2010)

LanceColeman said:


> There's two things people should take from this thread.
> 
> ONE: just because you can consistantly hit a pie plate at 25yds does NOT mean you can consistantly kill deer at 25yds. It's not a bench mark and should not give you any false pretenses. Pie plates don't raise your heart rate, don't look at you, don't duck arrows and don't have any ramifications on you if you miss it.
> 
> ...



Perfect.


----------



## SELFBOW (Aug 20, 2010)

I will chime in only to say that 22 yds is where I have to start "gapping" by aiming higher so I feel that is my maximum range. However as a beginner I am still willing to take a 20-25 shot if I have to. This year is my test. If I fail(bad shot) I will certainly limit my shots to 15yds. Mark Land has really had a long talk with me about it and what decisions I have to make. He has instilled in me moreso than anybody else about admitting to myself what my limits are...
Hope that makes sense...


----------



## LanceColeman (Aug 20, 2010)

buckbacks said:


> I will chime in only to say that 22 yds is where I have to start "gapping" by aiming higher so I feel that is my maximum range. However as a beginner I am still willing to take a 20-25 shot if I have to. This year is my test. If I fail(bad shot) I will certainly limit my shots to 15yds. Mark Land has really had a long talk with me about it and what decisions I have to make. He has instilled in me moreso than anybody else about admitting to myself what my limits are...
> Hope that makes sense...



um...dude... is that a typo?? Because you AINT get that train of thought from Mark Land!

 You just set here in a public forum and typed that you will SHOOT AT A DEER FARTHER THAN YOUR EFFECTIVE RANGE BECAUSE YOU ARE A BEGINNER?? dude that aint cool. being a beginner gives you no right or excuse to supercede your limitations. If anything it should make you wish to restrict them more.

"If you have to"?? There is no "Have to" in deer huntin bro. It aint climbin the tree to kill you...... if it does not come in range, reset your stand or wait another day. Thats why it's called huntin man.

You can't publically say what you just said and then use your inexperience to justify a wound. It's not a crutch or an excuse. It SHOULD be a reason to make you practice more self discipline.

Saying because you are a beginner and will shoot one farther than your effective range if you have to. And ONLY when you lose one or make a bad shot, will you limit yourself to closer shots is kill at all cost mentality bro.  And if thats the case?? You huntin with the wroooong weapon.


----------



## Dennis (Aug 20, 2010)

I think a good rule for most people is, when your shooting at game your max distance is about HALF of what it is in your back yard!


----------



## trad bow (Aug 20, 2010)

I have hunted with Mark for years and I have never heard him endorse that thought process. We don't hunt that way and I don't think you or anyone else should either.


----------



## Badddwithabow (Aug 20, 2010)

There is alot of GREAT things said with that being said I will shoot when I feel comfy with the shot. i know my limits and i know when i feel good about taking a shot like just now i walked out saw it was raining felt great stood on the porch and loosed 2 arras both were perfect hits and i mean killin shots not 10 ring shot. didn't have a clue on distance walked it out and it was about 28 steps which with my GOrilla stride should be at least 25 yards. 

But here is a question if you go out and shoot 4 out of 5 in the kill zone thats not good enough percentage wise. But what if you walk out shoot 1 arra it hits where you want and you go back inside? and you do that day in and day out is that good enough?

I can't wait to get into the deer woods with a long bow and get some experience under my belt but all my stands are hung in the nastiest stuff you can find i can't see more than 25 yards let alone shoot that far lol


----------



## LanceColeman (Aug 21, 2010)

There is  where i believe alot of the issue is Brandon. And thats why I no longer shoot "groups. I used to shoot them all the time. And my main focus was on the getting smaller and smaller. Now the only time i shoot groups is bow and arrow tuning. (broadheads, new strings, different shafts,nocking point, etc etc) Because all your arrows grouping together is the best answer to "is my gear consistantly doing the same thing every time."

But a couple years ago I noticed something. If any of my arrows were off.. the first one seemed to be the one with the higher average. See I normally have the ability toput my second arrow exactly where I want it. But sometimes my first arrow had a habit of being off a couple inches.... In other words if I missed by a couple inches on my first shot my second one is spot on.

But deer usually don't hang around waiting for that second arrow. So I removed the second arrow (3rd,4th and 5th) from the practice scheme. I shoot for a one arrow group now. And it allows me to place all my emphasis on that one arrow....... knowing if I'm off it has to eat on my head until I walk all the way down there, get it, and come all the way back to shoto it again. (this gets real monotonus when yer going up and down an elevated platform.) But it slows ya roll... it forces you to focus... you don't exhaust yourself as fast, and you give yourself a mental "break" to gather what just happened on the shot.

All too many times I see people staning there just gripping and ripping almost as fast as they can get an arrow nocked...... this leaves no  time for you to adjust and absorb the shot you just made.


----------



## SELFBOW (Aug 21, 2010)

trad bow said:


> I have hunted with Mark for years and I have never heard him endorse that thought process. We don't hunt that way and I don't think you or anyone else should either.



Maybe you misunderstood what I meant or I said it wrong.
Mark tells me to limit myself to 15 yds, I think I can make the 22-25 yd shot if necessary. I will try it but if I fail then I will commit to the shorter distance only. He hasn't encouraged me to do anything but shorten the distance I feel good with.
We set Marty's stand up last week w the furthest shot 22-24(furthest of 2 pear trees) and mine is not on the persimmons but on 2 trails towards them 1 within 10 the other at 20.
AM I setting myself up for failure by positioning the stand for 20-25yd shots?


----------



## Dennis (Aug 21, 2010)

Thats a long shot for me


----------



## LanceColeman (Aug 21, 2010)

You "THINK" you can make a 22-25yd shot if necessary??

BB You are totally missing the point here. There is no reason for you to attempt a shot at a range thats outside your comfort zone just because you "think" you can hit something that far. 

I will be the first to admit. I've killed deer with a recurve a whole lot farther than that. And I will also be the first to admit I have had deer jump the string and or move enough to change arrow impact at 10yds!! ROBERT CARTER was eye witness to an "aware" doe going COMPLETELY under my arrow at 12yds last season. He was right behind me when I shot at her....... she was not there when the arrow got there......So now not only are you having to take in to consideration the actual animal positioning by the time the arrow gets there. You are also attempting a shot that you only "THINK" You can make.

Aint no Thinkin man..... you need to be absolutely positive you can pull that shot off.

Thats the whole point of this thread... determining your effective range. And your sitting here telling us you will shoot OUTSIDE your effective range....... "why?" why take the chance?


----------



## SELFBOW (Aug 21, 2010)

LanceColeman said:


> You "THINK" you can make a 22-25yd shot if necessary??
> 
> BB You are totally missing the point here. There is no reason for you to attempt a shot at a range thats outside your comfort zone just because you "think" you can hit something that far.
> 
> ...



I don't know my effective range yet is the point I am trying to say ? 22 is not out my comfort zone. W that said it is obvious that the majority of experienced try to keep it at 15 yds. I hunt w Marty who is "experienced" and I'm thinking 20-22 yds is effective because he tells me so...and I can hit my spot at that distance. I have taken shots at 2 deer so far, 1 was 7 yds w no penetration because I has a cedar arrow w 125g's on a 3 blade up front(350 total wt), the other was 15 yds hit right behind the leg n  broke off 5" of arrow(250 up front 545 total). As I watched him leave I was thinking heart shot all along but was low and in brisket(got TC pics of him 2 months later)


----------



## LanceColeman (Aug 21, 2010)

OK, I gotcha now. I understand what your trying to say.......

 Martin, brudda I like ya (seriously I do) and in no way shape fashion or form am I trying to be insulting here or mean or anything like that. What I'm trying to do by saying this is keep ya from losing that next one you shoot at.

Ya gotta soft ball?? toss it out in ya yard....... now shoot it. If you cannot CONSISTANTLY hit that soft ball on your very first shot at 22yds?? then 22yds is NOT your effective range. (I use one of those lil nerf kiddy footyballs because it wobbles and bounces and never stops moving where I want it to, therefore I have to adapt to it's position and hit it.)

Yea I know lungs on a deer are much bigger than a soft ball. But keep the aim small miss small mentailty with me. If your center the soft ball you good.... if the deer moves a couple inches your still in the soft ball..... if your 3" off the soft ball you aint good..... the deer moves another couple inches and your in guts.

Headin out to take my daughter out to lunch (its her B day) I'll check back in later.


----------



## Tailfeather (Aug 21, 2010)

I posted a similar thread about comfort zone a few weeks back and got some interesting responses.  

Here's a quote from Lance and a link to the thread if interested.  

"I do not HAVE a self imposed comfort zone or limit. I've never set in a tree or in a blind and had a deer walk out and think. "Oh you aren't in my comfort zone so I cannot shoot you.

I have a little voice in the back of my head. If the voice says "shoot" I shoot the deer. If the voice doesn't say "shoot" I don't shoot the deer.

I've had wired nervous deer 5 yds from the base of my tree and the voice never tell me to shoot...... and I've had deer walk out relaxed and feeding in noisey woods............ an awful lot farther than 5yds and the voice says "shoot" and I shoot the deer.

I've been at this an awful long time. And all "self imposed limits ever do is.......... Yea you guessed it. Limit a hunter from reaching his potential. I'm not sayin shoot outside your lethal range. I'm saying LEARN your set up, LEARN your gear, LEARN how it shoots at what distances. And most of all and the biggest one. LEARN to read a deers body english and moods."

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=548381&highlight=


----------



## ChrisSpikes (Aug 21, 2010)

buckbacks said:


> I don't know my effective range yet is the point I am trying to say ? 22 is not out my comfort zone. W that said it is obvious that the majority of experienced try to keep it at 15 yds. I hunt w Marty who is "experienced" and I'm thinking 20-22 yds is effective because he tells me so...and I can hit my spot at that distance. I have taken shots at 2 deer so far, 1 was 7 yds w no penetration because I has a cedar arrow w 125g's on a 3 blade up front(350 total wt), the other was 15 yds hit right behind the leg n  broke off 5" of arrow(250 up front 545 total). As I watched him leave I was thinking heart shot all along but was low and in brisket(got TC pics of him 2 months later)


Martin, how can you be comfortable out to 22 yards when you've already lost deer at 7 and 15?  You may not know your effective range yet, but your past experiences should give you a pretty good idea.

Both of those deer were lost because of bad shots.  Not because of arrow weight or broadhead choice.  Deer ain't hard to shoot through.  They ain't tough like hogs.  If you had no penetration, it was because you hit heavy bone.  Which means you missed high, or forward, or both.  At 7 yards I'd bet high.  On the one at 15, you just missed low.

I can promise you this.  They don't get easier to hit when they're further away.


----------



## LanceColeman (Aug 21, 2010)

And I still stand by that. And I'll quote yer quote of my quote....

""I'M NOT SAYIN SHOOT OUTSIDE YOUR LETHAL RANGE. I'm saying LEARN your set up, LEARN your gear, LEARN how it shoots at what distances. And most of all and the biggest one. LEARN to read a deers body english and moods."""


I think my remark about "self imposed limits" may be what Chris had in mindwhen he started this thread. But it's hard to place a "distance" as an actual limit. but what else is there to actual measure by other than a "distance"?

My basis on the little voice comes from my shooting and practice. If it's within a position I've shot enough to feel comfortable with and the animals body english is right, the voice says shoot. If it's something I don;t feel comfortable or familiar with?? the voice stay quiet.


----------



## SELFBOW (Aug 21, 2010)

ChrisSpikes said:


> Martin, how can you be comfortable out to 22 yards when you've already lost deer at 7 and 15?  You may not know your effective range yet, but your past experiences should give you a pretty good idea.
> 
> Both of those deer were lost because of bad shots.  Not because of arrow weight or broadhead choice.  Deer ain't hard to shoot through.  They ain't tough like hogs.  If you had no penetration, it was because you hit heavy bone.  Which means you missed high, or forward, or both.  At 7 yards I'd bet high.  On the one at 15, you just missed low.
> 
> I can promise you this.  They don't get easier to hit when they're further away.



I have also changed the way I shoot since then and way more confident. I'm 3 under now and actually aim instead of instinctively  shoot. Those 2 things made big differences in how I feel about a shot. Neither of those shots did I "aim" at a spot. I am still learning what it takes to shoot well.
The 7 yd shot may have been closer than that almost straight down. didnt hear any ribs breaking so I don't  know the answer other than I had only a couple inches in the deer. I know I shot low on the other.
The point is I feel like I have learned from my early mistakes and feel I can take the shot at 22yds. W that said I had 2 8pts last year, one at 12 yds and another at 20 that I never drew on . Had another buckchasing  a doe right at dark at 17.so don't take it as I am going to shoot everything inside 22yds.
Let me ask this question "If I know the mistakes that have caused problems and I corrected those am I not suppose to keep trying?


----------



## LanceColeman (Aug 21, 2010)

Yes Martin by all means you are on the right track now. But the way your post came across it was if you were telling us. "OK I wrecked the motorcycle trying to jump a 15' gorge, but now i know what I did wrong, so without any further adue I am going to jump the motorcycle across a 25 foot gorge."

I'll try and call you later tonite. I got practice at the life center in half an hour so I gotta scoot.


----------



## SELFBOW (Aug 21, 2010)

LanceColeman said:


> Yes Martin by all means you are on the right track now. But the way your post came across it was if you were telling us. "OK I wrecked the motorcycle trying to jump a 15' gorge, but now i know what I did wrong, so without any further adue I am going to jump the motorcycle across a 25 foot gorge."
> 
> I'll try and call you later tonite. I got practice at the life center in half an hour so I gotta scoot.



I won't answer, Bristol is about to be happening


----------



## TGUN (Aug 21, 2010)

LanceColeman said:


> Dadgum!! sounds ta me like some of yall need to be shootin IBO worlds! Yall do realize the difference betwixed 20yds and 20 feet right??



I said 23 paces not yards. I am a short guy


----------



## dutchman (Aug 24, 2010)

I have painted some 2" x 2" squares on my blob out back. At 15 yards (measured, not paced), I can get 5 of 5 within an inch of any side of one of those blocks (that's with me concentrating on the middle of the block). So, I'm missing the middle by 3" or so. If I back up to 20 yards (again, measured), I don't do nearly so well.

Another thing I do to tighten myself up is to hang one of those plastic practice wiffle golf balls from a string on the blob and shoot at it. I don't have to hit it every time, 5 out of 5, but I'm within 3" on the ball with all 5 shots at 15 yards. Again, not so much at 20. The more I shoot at that little plastic ball, the better I shoot.

So, I need one at 15 yards, it would appear.


----------



## robert carter (Aug 24, 2010)

We ain`t perfect by any means but if you ever watched Chris and I set up stands you would notice they are either IN the feed tree or no more that 10 yards away.If I read the recap of Chris`s last year hunting season right after 9 deer kills for the year his average shot was 9 yards. He`s won how many 3d shoots this year? That should tell you something in itself.RC


----------



## robert carter (Aug 24, 2010)

Whenever someone "new" looks at my longbow there are usually one of two questions.. 
1.  Man this thing is cool...you ever killed something with it?

2. How far will this kill a deer?

  Usually those that ask the first are interested and give it a try.Those that ask the second usually shy away after my answer.RC


----------



## TGUN (Aug 25, 2010)

Robert:

IMO you drill those same guys down and you will find that;

1: a TON of compound and cross bow shooters are not successful when they shoot past 15 or 20 yards

2: They also miss inside 15 yards and it is because they have not shot enough to ingrain any type of muscle memory under pressure. When their heart starts pounding and their vision tunnels, their body goes "instinctive". Problem is they have no experience or practice skill set shooting that way either. Result = miss. I once was standing behind a guy shooting at a coyote that appeared out of nowhere, ran in and stopped 11 yards from us. It all happened so fast that he drew his bow and shot with no regard to the sites or peep. Missed clean.  

I shot allot with my compound but I believe that I have shot 100 times more arrows through my longbow over the last 2 years than I did over the prior 30 years of shooting a compound. Because of this, I am much more confident and have the muscle memory to shoot much better than I ever did with a compound UNDER THE PRESSURE OF TRUE HUNTING CONDITIONS. Yes, my groups at 30 yards are not like shooting a wheel bow with sites, but I never killed a deer at 30 yards with the wheel bow either.  

Perfect practice develops muscle memory and an effective auto pilot of the basic skills you use to shoot well. That builds confidence and the ability to do what you need to do under pressure. THAT is how you and you alone evaluate each and every shot and determine what your effective range is for that shot.


----------



## Apex Predator (Aug 25, 2010)

Martin, Martin, Martin, I don't remember telling you to shoot them at 22 yards.  I personally like them at 15 yards, but I have shot further.  That stand on the pears has the long shot at 24 yards, but I ain't taking it.  Remember us making that barricade so they have to walk inside 20 to get to that tree?    Besides all the deer that come in there are gonna be traveling to your persimmon stand.  That's when I'll shoot them.  Quartering away at 12 yards!  You may not see a deer this year if I'm huntin' with you.


----------



## Jake Allen (Aug 25, 2010)

dutchman said:


> I have painted some 2" x 2" squares on my blob out back. At 15 yards (measured, not paced), I can get 5 of 5 within an inch of any side of one of those blocks (that's with me concentrating on the middle of the block). So, I'm missing the middle by 3" or so. If I back up to 20 yards (again, measured), I don't do nearly so well.
> 
> Another thing I do to tighten myself up is to hang one of those plastic practice wiffle golf balls from a string on the blob and shoot at it. I don't have to hit it every time, 5 out of 5, but I'm within 3" on the ball with all 5 shots at 15 yards. Again, not so much at 20. The more I shoot at that little plastic ball, the better I shoot.
> 
> So, I need one at 15 yards, it would appear.



That is fine shooting brother!


----------



## Dennis (Aug 25, 2010)

Yea good shooting Dutchman, All though it is no surprise ive seen him shoot all year and don't let him shoot at one of your arrows he will scare the heck out of them!


----------



## dutchman (Aug 25, 2010)

Jake Allen said:


> That is fine shooting brother!





Dennis said:


> Yea good shooting Dutchman, All though it is no surprise ive seen him shoot all year and don't let him shoot at one of your arrows he will scare the heck out of them!



But both of you know first hand that I can fall to pieces QUICK! That stuff described above is backyard shooting at an inanimate object that has no pulse. And, it ain't shooting back.


----------



## robert carter (Aug 25, 2010)

If you want to test yourself a bit get a cardboard cut out of a deers chest. My Grandson and myself made me a couple of pigs from a box. Don`t put any aiming spots on it...no marks of any kind just leg cut outs and back off about 15-18 yards and pick a spot where nothing is at and try to do good. Its much different than shooting at dots or the crease on a 3d.RC


----------

