# Questions for the old timers



## Thunder Head (Apr 30, 2019)

I didn't want to ask this on one of the other threads.
We were discussing this at camp Saturday. But were all about the same age. 45- 50

If you take Coyotes out of the equation. "We" don't see any more predators then when we started turkey hunting. I started in 2000 and the other guys have been at it for about 10 years.

Ive heard talk of nobody traps anymore. But I started deer hunting in the mid 80s. I didn't know anyone that trapped back then. The turkey population was booming.

So for you guys that have been hunting turkeys a lot longer than me. Are there more hawks, raccoons and other predators than there were in the 80 - 90s?


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## NCHillbilly (Apr 30, 2019)

Thunder Head said:


> I didn't want to ask this on one of the other threads.
> We were discussing this at camp Saturday. But were all about the same age. 45- 50
> 
> If you take Coyotes out of the equation. "We" don't see any more predators then when we started turkey hunting. I started in 2000 and the other guys have been at it for about 10 years.
> ...


Hawks and coons, yes, at least in my neck of the woods. Everybody used to keep chickens and they shot every hawk they saw. The mid-80s had many, many, many more trappers than now. I ran a line then. Fur prices were very high. When you were working for $3 an hour and you could sell a coon hide for $25, or a possum hide for $8 or a bobcat for $100, well, you get the picture. Thousands of coons were killed and sold just in my county every year. My fur buyer had an enormous barn hanging full of fur all winter.

Fur trapping was big, big business then, but fur prices crashed in the late 80s, and trapping pretty much stopped on a large scale. 

Not as many foxes now, though. Coyotes put a hurting on them. The yotes were just starting to show up here in the 80s, but there are scads of them now. Don't see many weasels or mink now like I did back then, either. Bobcats about the same as then.


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## ol bob (Apr 30, 2019)

Where I live there are at least 20 times as many hawks and more than that raccoons.


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## mike1225 (Apr 30, 2019)

There are way too many Raccoons. They need to die.


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## spurrs and racks (Apr 30, 2019)

Everything you write is a factor, do not exclude the number of turkey hunters.

My son killed a old boss gobbler on the national forest 1st week. Since then he couldn't go up there without several trucks of hunters all around him. Turkey hunting got tough in a hurry.

The club property I hunt now never had any turkey hunters, then I had success and several other club members started turkey hunting. Took a few years for them to realize that as long as I hunted turkeys in that property, their chances of killing one was way down.

Finally weeded them all out.....took a while...but I have it to myself again. (BOSEG)


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## 1eyefishing (Apr 30, 2019)

A lot more coyotes around now in my opinion. I believe it is even affecting my deer hunting...


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## Twiggbuster (Apr 30, 2019)

Raccoons galore.
Bobcats have increased.
Coyotes by 1000%
Foxes declined by way of the yotes.
All else the same.


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## herb mcclure (Apr 30, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Hawks and coons, yes, at least in my neck of the woods. Everybody used to keep chickens and they shot every hawk they saw. The mid-80s had many, many, many more trappers than now. I ran a line then. Fur prices were very high. When you were working for $3 an hour and you could sell a coon hide for $25, or a possum hide for $8 or a bobcat for $100, well, you get the picture. Thousands of coons were killed and sold just in my county every year. My fur buyer had an enormous barn hanging full of fur all winter.
> 
> Fur trapping was big, big business then, but fur prices crashed in the late 80s, and trapping pretty much stopped on a large scale.
> 
> Not as many foxes now, though. Coyotes put a hurting on them. The yotes were just starting to show up here in the 80s, but there are scads of them now. Don't see many weasels or mink now like I did back then, either. Bobcats about the same as then.


Mountain man, you got the hawks down right. They were the chickens enemy, and they are the young turkey's worst enemy today. You got the part about trapping down right too. Even I, in the early '50s, ran traplines; after school and before I was allowed to carry a gun.
The ole game warden, Herbert Cruse, of the Blue Ridge WMA ran traplines back in the '60s and '70s; to keep the four-legged predators there under control. Some, could not stand the way he smelled; with all that trapping lure smell all over him. However, there were fewer predators in his day; but a lot more wild turkeys then too; than today. 
Several times, I have come on here and voiced my opinion; about turkey's decline. It is a real happening in the high mountains, there are fewer wild turkeys than 20 years ago*.*
Coyotes and wild hogs were not the problems in the old days. Hogs eat turkey eggs, hawks catch young and adult turkeys, coons, bobcats, and coyotes will devour turkeys; when they can catch one; along with a nest.


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## NCHillbilly (Apr 30, 2019)

herb mcclure said:


> Mountain man, you got the hawks down right. They were the chickens enemy, and they are the young turkey's worst enemy today. You got the part about trapping down right too. Even I, in the early '50s, ran traplines; after school and before I was allowed to carry a gun.
> The ole game warden, Herbert Cruse, of the Blue Ridge WMA ran traplines back in the '60s and '70s; to keep the four-legged predators there under control. Some, could not stand the way he smelled; with all that trapping lure smell all over him. However, there were fewer predators in his day; but a lot more wild turkeys then too; than today.
> Several times, I have come on here and voiced my opinion; about turkey's decline. It is a real happening in the high mountains, there are fewer wild turkeys than 20 years ago*.*
> Coyotes and wild hogs were not the problems in the old days. Hogs eat turkey eggs, hawks catch young and adult turkeys, coons, bobcats, and coyotes will devour turkeys; when they can catch one; along with a nest.


Around here, we are absolutely infested with turkeys, believe it or not. I sit on my porch and see flocks of 50-60 birds pretty often. I hear them gobbling off my porch every morning, and see them standing in the road every day. There are loads of turkeys here. Deer, not so much. Quail are gone. Grouse are nearly gone.


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## Hillbilly stalker (Apr 30, 2019)

There are several factors to it. First there are fewer coon hunters, mainly because its so hard to find a place to coon hunt and most land is leased up. People bait as a method of hunting now, you provide the food, and wont let no one harvest any... Your gonna get over  run with coons. The more food the higher reproduction rate.  A gentleman over in Edgefield SC ( Home of the NWTF) told me this past weekend that they have so many Bald Eagles in that area around Thurmond Lake that you cant see a turkey out in the fields anymore, the Eagles swoop them up. Something tries to kill a turkey every day of its life, no predator control and the flock suffers. People don't trap because the bottom has fallen out of the fur market. Coon hunters are the best option.


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## delacroix (Apr 30, 2019)

The increase in owls, hawks, etc. over the time period matching the decline in turkeys is a known fact.


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## NCHillbilly (Apr 30, 2019)

Hillbilly stalker said:


> There are several factors to it. First there are fewer coon hunters, mainly because its so hard to find a place to coon hunt and most land is leased up. People bait as a method of hunting now, you provide the food, and wont let no one harvest any... Your gonna get over  run with coons. The more food the higher reproduction rate.  A gentleman over in Edgefield SC ( Home of the NWTF) told me this past weekend that they have so many Bald Eagles in that area around Thurmond Lake that you cant see a turkey out in the fields anymore, the Eagles swoop them up. Something tries to kill a turkey every day of its life, no predator control and the flock suffers. People don't trap because the bottom has fallen out of the fur market. Coon hunters are the best option.


Yep, the decline in land access and the drop in fur prices drastically reduced coon hunting. I used to coon hunt almost every night, but I haven't owned a hound or coon hunted in about twenty years. I have land next to Thurmond. I see several eagles every time I go out on the lake. I have turkeys on my place there, but nothing like they are up here. We are slap ate up with turkeys here.


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## willie1971 (Apr 30, 2019)

I read owls put a hurting on turkeys more than any other bird.  Trappers can't make money other than a few choice cat pelts and that is highly regulated.  Some sell coyotes on the live market, but that takes some investment.  A friend of mine collects fox urine to supplement his trapping hobby but that's about it.  Trapping is a lot of fun and work, and I've learned a lot about the woods which has taught me a lot about game animal behavior


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## willie1971 (Apr 30, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yep, the decline in land access and the drop in fur prices drastically reduced coon hunting. I used to coon hunt almost every night, but I haven't owned a hound or coon hunted in about twenty years. I have land next to Thurmond. I see several eagles every time I go out on the lake. I have turkeys on my place there, but nothing like they are up here. We are slap ate up with turkeys here.



I visited the Biltmore house last week on a family spring break trip.  Never seen so many turkeys at one place in my life.  All over the property


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## Squadron77 (Apr 30, 2019)

In the 60s & 70s there were a lot of people trapping for extra money. A possum would bring $5, a coon $15, a fox $50. That was a lot money back in the day but people didn't talk about it. Because you raised chickens for eggs and meat you would kill any hawk you would see. Back in the 60s you could hunt or trap almost anywhere you wanted. There were no leases or gates blocking access to creek bottoms or fields so you would drive down a dirt road and stop at a bridge get out and start hunting. Very few people turkey hunted back then. I spend more money now for hunting then the average income in 1960.


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## willie1971 (Apr 30, 2019)

Squadron77 said:


> In the 60s & 70s there were a lot of people trapping for extra money. A possum would bring $5, a coon $15, a fox $50. That was a lot money back in the day but people didn't talk about it. Because you raised chickens for eggs and meat you would kill any hawk you would see. Back in the 60s you could hunt or trap almost anywhere you wanted. There were no leases or gates blocking access to creek bottoms or fields so you would drive down a dirt road and stop at a bridge get out and start hunting. Very few people turkey hunted back then. I spend more money now for hunting then the average income in 1960.



Interesting - some old timers told me (im 47) that turkey hunting's golden era was in the 70s.  Perhaps trapping really helped.  If I had my own land, I'd trap it pretty hard.  I'm not a good statistical sample, but I'm seeing less deer, especially over the last 10 years.  Coyotes are here to stay and the problem has reached critical mass.  Too late to really make an impact at this point IMO


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## strothershwacker (Apr 30, 2019)

When i was a young man we hunted turkeys bear footed. In the snow. Had to walk to em up hill both ways. We didnt skin em like they do now days. No siree, we just ate em feathers and all! Get to caughin at nite and fill up yer own flour sack pillow with turkey down stuffing. Yea man em was the good ol' days. Had to milk the neighbors cow before he woke up before the ol' man would let ye slip of to go chasin em thunder chickens. We didnt worry bout the possum sherrif back then cause he knew, we knew bout his girlfriend that lived up the holler that Ol' Mrs. Greenjeans knew nothin about. We shot a many of turkeys back then off the neighbors farm. One of em was even a wild turkey! Yup, turkey huntin was different when we was growin up....... next to a turkey farm.


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## Squadron77 (Apr 30, 2019)

willie1971 said:


> Interesting - some old timers told me (im 47) that turkey hunting's golden era was in the 70s.  Perhaps trapping really helped.  If I had my own land, I'd trap it pretty hard.  I'm not a good statistical sample, but I'm seeing less deer, especially over the last 10 years.  Coyotes are here to stay and the problem has reached critical mass.  Too late to really make an impact at this point IMO


 
I'm sure for turkey hunters the 70s and 80s were great. I did a little turkey hunting in the 80s and you would have 20-30 gobblers every morning. In the late 80s everyone started planting pine tree on all the farm land and the numbers started dropping. I have been trapping for a few years and you will see an increase in the number of birds you have but unless you have open land or old growth timber or you still can't draw in the big numbers. On a good day now I can get on 10-12 gobblers roosting together.


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## NCHillbilly (Apr 30, 2019)

willie1971 said:


> Interesting - some old timers told me (im 47) that turkey hunting's golden era was in the 70s.  Perhaps trapping really helped.  If I had my own land, I'd trap it pretty hard.  I'm not a good statistical sample, but I'm seeing less deer, especially over the last 10 years.  Coyotes are here to stay and the problem has reached critical mass.  Too late to really make an impact at this point IMO


There were very few turkeys here in the 70s. didn't see one very often at all. Now, there are thousands of them. We're infested with turkeys. I see them every day.


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## AliBubba (Apr 30, 2019)

What about feral hogs? They have proliferated everywhere.


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## Lukikus2 (Apr 30, 2019)

We didn't have turkeys in my neck of the woods, or yotes. Had one pack of red wolfs. Countywide. The NTF released birds we weren't able to hunt until they became sustainable. Then the yotes showed up. Shoot em


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## 4x4Taco (May 1, 2019)

In the field I was hunting last week I found several eggs with quarter size holes in them where something ate the yolk. Was this a coon. It was as if a coon picked the egg up in his little hands and bit a hole in the egg and peeled back just enough to get his mouth inside. Found five or six like that.


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## Thunder Head (May 1, 2019)

I didn't get serious about hunting until the late 90's. So maybe I just didn't pay enough attention in my younger days.

The turkey recruitment rate started taking a nose dive in the mid 90's. So maybe 5-7 years after the fur market crashed. Yotes started showing up soon after. Started getting wild hogs in the early 2000's. Timber practices changing. Ive always heard raptor numbers were making a comeback after we stopped using DDT.

Seems hopeless sometimes.

I can tell you this. Its not hard to trap a coon. Especially at a feeder. Order a few dog proof traps. Get you some T- stakes, cat food and Marshmallows. There are not as many on my lease as there used to be.


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## Top of Georgia (May 1, 2019)

mossberg 835 hevi-shot tss shot is a factor to and in northern counties lots of timber cutting when they were being stocked


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## Mark K (May 1, 2019)

4x4Taco said:


> In the field I was hunting last week I found several eggs with quarter size holes in them where something ate the yolk. Was this a coon. It was as if a coon picked the egg up in his little hands and bit a hole in the egg and peeled back just enough to get his mouth inside. Found five or six like that.


Probably crows. If you’ll watch them they will come in to yelps. They’ll also follow hens midday or evenings to their nest.


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## XIronheadX (May 1, 2019)

Field nests are easy pickin from above.


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## High road (May 1, 2019)

Back in the early 80s the fur buyer would come by our house and pick up our furs never will forget it was the first money I ever made by myself as young teen. Dad had over 40 red and grey foxes ready for him to pick up hanging around our porch. If I remember reds were going for over $50 and bobcats were $75 heck even possums were worth skinning. Here in the mts turkeys were scattered on private land but the public land was in excellent shape. You could hear and see turkeys every where on public land and see scratching all over the place. Now it's the opposite 90% of the birds are on private. The scratching in the mts has been replaced with hog rooting which they destroy nest. We have more people feeding year round and alot of the game (turkey, deer, bear) have relocated. Hawks take their toll because I have witnessed them dive bombing grown turkeys. Even had one fly off with one of those foam decoys and peck the head of it. Coons are probably the worst on destroying nest and killing nesting hens. Any one who has chickens free range has probably had hawk or owl problems and the cages have to be coon proofed. Does trapping help? Yes


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## Mark K (May 2, 2019)

I took over 20 coons, 10 possums, 8 bobcats, and 10 coyotes off of one property, we’ll see how it affects the nesting this year. Already have a ton of jakes running around, so if this year is as good or better than next year, then it too will be a banner year.


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## Ihunt (May 2, 2019)

Imo, the decline in turkeys has to be mostly disease related. I’m in middle Georgia and we have had Predators for a while. We went from a very nice population to virtually none in 2-3 years. Hens as well as gobblers just gone. 

Predators take their fair share but the only thing that wipes out an entire population is disease. 

We have also had hogs forever or so it seems. The year the decline started I had actually trapped about 50 hogs off of the property so I doubt hogs are the culprit. 

Disease. Will never convince me otherwise.


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## Gadget (May 2, 2019)

I definitely feel like an old timer


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## XIronheadX (May 2, 2019)

Ihunt said:


> Imo, the decline in turkeys has to be mostly disease related. I’m in middle Georgia and we have had Predators for a while. We went from a very nice population to virtually none in 2-3 years. Hens as well as gobblers just gone.
> 
> Predators take their fair share but the only thing that wipes out an entire population is disease.
> 
> ...


I've thought the same thing, Ihunt. Some of the best properties the last 10 yrs were covered with predators. Still had loads of turkeys. Although habitat condenses them at times, the population has held up. It's been great since 2008 where I've been. Then again those places haven't been producing aflatoxins.


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## Bigtimber (May 2, 2019)

Nothing I haven't noticed an increase that much....except the yokes. I beleive those yokes are some eating machines.


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## buckpasser (May 3, 2019)

Ihunt said:


> Imo, the decline in turkeys has to be mostly disease related. I’m in middle Georgia and we have had Predators for a while. We went from a very nice population to virtually none in 2-3 years. Hens as well as gobblers just gone.
> 
> Predators take their fair share but the only thing that wipes out an entire population is disease.
> 
> ...




I agree. It happened too fast to be all predators, all weather, etc. I’m not “whining” or crying about it. I believe they’ll bounce back, but here are a list of things that always make it tough even without disease:

Every predator eats turkeys and their eggs
Weather effects recruitment for good or bad
Turkeys aren’t “new” around here anymore and people and critters have learned to target them more than when they were
Feeders congregate turkeys and make them easier targets for prey
Idiots shoot them during deer season
Mowers kill them without remorse
The hardwood mill stays backed up all the time
CRP pines fields are gone and back in ag 
Improper fire and lack of it at all doesn’t help them
I like them, so Murphy’s law says they must decline


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## herb mcclure (May 4, 2019)

buckpasser said:


> I agree. It happened too fast to be all predators, all weather, etc. I’m not “whining” or crying about it. I believe they’ll bounce back, but here are a list of things that always make it tough even without disease:
> 
> Every predator eats turkeys and their eggs
> Weather effects recruitment for good or bad
> ...


Lots of unknown to why turkeys numbers are down. like NC Hillbilly has stated, there are lots of turkeys in his area;where there never were any in recent times.
It is hard for me to believe that in the mountains where I hunt, the turkeys there have never seen or know what a pasture field looks like. No chicken litter up there. This downturn in population  is several states wide; except in what I call "new ground".


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## buckpasser (May 4, 2019)

I’m not saying it is disease from chicken litter.  Mosquito spread is more what I was thinking. The game chicken guys call one disease “fowl pox”. It turns a turkey’s head into one continuous bed of bumps and blisters and their eyes swell shut. They can survive it in captivity if their owner has enough patience to force feed them. In the wild there’s absolutely no way they could avoid death. If this disease does come through an area, would we even notice it?  The infected birds would be eaten so quickly I doubt we’d see many of them, especially if it were in the summer when not many of us are in the woods.


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## Mark K (May 4, 2019)

I too know of areas that never had turkeys that have them now. I also know of areas that once flourished with turkeys that are now void of them. Most of that has to do with habitat change.

There is death in the woods every day. Believe it or not critters die. I’m in the woods 365 days a year and find death all the time. Why? Who knows, maybe they get sick just like we do. May be weather related. May be stress related. What I do know is I can only control 2 factors where I hunt and that the habitat and predators. What’s even better is our local WMA is doing the exact same thing. The land is now being managed and traps are out as I type. We can’t control everything that effects a turkeys well being but we need to do what we can.


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## bonecollector (May 6, 2019)

I agree with NCHillbilly ! we also have a fire ant problem


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## Gaswamp (May 10, 2019)

Gadget said:


> I definitely feel like an old timer


nah you been gone long enuff ur now a newbie....went to visit with Curtis this winter and your name came up....hope you are well


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## Gadget (May 23, 2019)

Hey Joe hope everything is good. I haven't talked to Curtis in a while I've been wondering how he's doing, he still owes me a fishing trip...lol


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## saltysenior (May 23, 2019)

Ihunt said:


> Imo, the decline in turkeys has to be mostly disease related. I’m in middle Georgia and we have had Predators for a while. We went from a very nice population to virtually none in 2-3 years. Hens as well as gobblers just gone.
> 
> Predators take their fair share but the only thing that wipes out an entire population is disease.
> 
> ...





Ihunt said:


> Imo, the decline in turkeys has to be mostly disease related. I’m in middle Georgia and we have had Predators for a while. We went from a very nice population to virtually none in 2-3 years. Hens as well as gobblers just gone.
> 
> Predators take their fair share but the only thing that wipes out an entire population is disease.
> 
> ...



Disease is the only answer that will cover the problem in all areas of the eastern U.S. that has had a major decline in turkey population.....as an ''old timer'',I have been very close to two large populations of turkeys that vanished in 2 years time..


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## Ihunt (May 23, 2019)

saltysenior said:


> Disease is the only answer that will cover the problem in all areas of the eastern U.S. that has had a major decline in turkey population.....as an ''old timer'',I have been very close to two large populations of turkeys that vanished in 2 years time..




Yes sir.  Now, what disease? Where from? How to control it? And lastly, why will they not admit it?


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## XIronheadX (May 23, 2019)

2012= The average brood size of 7.4 poults observed in 2012 was 8% more than 2011 (6.9) and 5.6% less than the previous 5 years average 

2013-The average brood size of 6.0 poults observed in 2013 was 20% less than 2012

2014=The average brood size of 5.2 poults observed in 2014 was 12.3% less than 2013 (6.0) and 27% less than the 5 year average 

2015-The average brood size of 4.75 poults observed in 2015 was 9% less than 2014 (5.2) and 20% less than the 5 year average

2016+The average brood size of 5.36 poults observed in 2016 was 12.8% greater than 2015 (4.75) and 7.6% less than the 5 year average

It only got worse after that.  Maybe it gets better soon.  I've read that small amounts of mold make hens lay less eggs?. Predators?- Always been there.  
Where I've been the last few years there are lots of turkeys. No feed. Loads of predators. Good habitat, but its changing to worse of late.


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## saltysenior (May 24, 2019)

XIronheadX said:


> 2012= The average brood size of 7.4 poults observed in 2012 was 8% more than 2011 (6.9) and 5.6% less than the previous 5 years average
> 
> 2013-The average brood size of 6.0 poults observed in 2013 was 20% less than 2012
> 
> ...




how about how many hens where seen each year ??? was that in a decline too ??


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## XIronheadX (May 24, 2019)

saltysenior said:


> how about how many hens where seen each year ??? was that in a decline too ??


I didn't pay much attention to that part of it when I zoned in on the poults. It was based on hens actually observed with poults. There's a lot more info in the reports. It's on this page below the surveys. I guess we all need to participate more so they can record some data. I'd like to see trail cam info incorporated into it as well. That's where I do my inventory, by leaving the cameras out during turkey season and all summer. 

https://georgiawildlife.com/harvest-summaries


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## XIronheadX (May 24, 2019)

Last page of the 2018 report.

"Further Comparisons from the Turkey Hunting Population Index Survey • Even though we had a fair 2016 reproductive season which carried over to a marginally better 2017 hunting season, it was followed by what may have been the worst documented reproductive season we’ve experienced in 2017. Therefore, the 2017 reproductive season nullified the 2016 reproductive season over a large part of the state and is why the 2018 hunting season was overall worse than in 2017. • Ninety-three percent of the state is privately held, therefore private landowners’ actions will determine what happens with our turkey population. We are losing turkey habitat (especially turkey nesting and poult rearing habitat) and are continuing to suffer regional declines in quality and quantity of turkey habitat leading to an overall lower turkey population than occurred in the previous decades. It is becoming more common to have local population declines in certain areas of the state, however some areas are still seeing increasing populations, likely a direct result of changing habitat conditions. For these reasons it is critical that we continue to monitor turkey populations closely into the future. One of the most important things to consider when managing turkeys is the effect of harvest and the ability to carry over adult birds into the next year. One of our best Wildlife Management Areas in the state has averaged approximately 3 gobblers harvested/square mile (640 acres). I would recommend using a lower number of 2 gobblers or less harvested per square mile for hunting clubs as a turkey harvest guideline (or an easy rule of thumb of 1/500)"
___________
They have to be able to walk from one source to another. Mowing and planting strips through briar and undergrowth they can't walk helps. Select cut is great for 2 yrs then it grows back. Anything I can connect with strips they can flow through helps where I'm at.


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## saltysenior (May 24, 2019)

t





Ihunt said:


> Yes sir.  Now, what disease? Where from? How to control it? And lastly, why will they not admit it?



do not understand the lack of info put out by agencies and organizations that have studied this problem.....seems they are letting us accept the reasons that only apply locally and are constantly brought up by hunter's ideas formed by local observations


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## saltysenior (May 24, 2019)

XIronheadX said:


> Last page of the 2018 report.
> 
> "Further Comparisons from the Turkey Hunting Population Index Survey • Even though we had a fair 2016 reproductive season which carried over to a marginally better 2017 hunting season, it was followed by what may have been the worst documented reproductive season we’ve experienced in 2017. Therefore, the 2017 reproductive season nullified the 2016 reproductive season over a large part of the state and is why the 2018 hunting season was overall worse than in 2017. • Ninety-three percent of the state is privately held, therefore private landowners’ actions will determine what happens with our turkey population. We are losing turkey habitat (especially turkey nesting and poult rearing habitat) and are continuing to suffer regional declines in quality and quantity of turkey habitat leading to an overall lower turkey population than occurred in the previous decades. It is becoming more common to have local population declines in certain areas of the state, however some areas are still seeing increasing populations, likely a direct result of changing habitat conditions. For these reasons it is critical that we continue to monitor turkey populations closely into the future. One of the most important things to consider when managing turkeys is the effect of harvest and the ability to carry over adult birds into the next year. One of our best Wildlife Management Areas in the state has averaged approximately 3 gobblers harvested/square mile (640 acres). I would recommend using a lower number of 2 gobblers or less harvested per square mile for hunting clubs as a turkey harvest guideline (or an easy rule of thumb of 1/500)"
> ___________
> They have to be able to walk from one source to another. Mowing and planting strips through briar and undergrowth they can't walk helps. Select cut is great for 2 yrs then it grows back. Anything I can connect with strips they can flow through helps where I'm at.



very good thoughts but, again not holding water in all states or areas
 we had turkeys in our suburban area beginning about 10 years ago..they vanished about 4 years ago without anything changing....many towns in N.J.and Mass. were plagued with a nuisance population that has fallen without any of the often blamed reasons......It seems to me that a turkey population will rise in good habitat (Towns included) until,for some reason,it dwindles down to almost nothing.


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## XIronheadX (May 24, 2019)

saltysenior said:


> very good thoughts but, again not holding water in all states or areas
> we had turkeys in our suburban area beginning about 10 years ago..they vanished about 4 years ago without anything changing....many towns in N.J.and Mass. were plagued with a nuisance population that has fallen without any of the often blamed reasons......It seems to me that a turkey population will rise in good habitat (Towns included) until,for some reason,it dwindles down to almost nothing.


Turkeys are a fragile thing no doubt. So, many things can have a negative effect. Even down to they are like a family based on a flock. And take on different roles. A single flock needs at least a square mile of good habitat. I think many just see them as bird wandering through the woods. The last two large areas I've been a part of, I watch flocks break up in spring, and the toms go set up shop in certain areas of a property. They lay claim to it. And that's where I'd find certain birds throughout most of the season. 

I'm suburban too. We had birds in here a few years back. I see them a few miles away some years. This year they were back around here. That's habitat related.


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## Swamprat (May 24, 2019)

Nobody buying pelts anymore like say 30-40 years ago and beyond has probably contributed to a increase of predators but remember they have always been around.

Fire ants play a big part in death of newly hatched chicks IMO.

I think the biggest reason for decline in populations is the lack of diverse habitat. You go from lets say 1000 acres of natural pines, oaks, other tree types, various thickness of under brush etc. to a monoculture of planted pines that had the oaks killed and the pine saplings in a few years after planting become a wall of blackberry bushes or gallberries then no turkey is gonna use that type of habitat.


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## XIronheadX (May 24, 2019)

Swamprat said:


> Nobody buying pelts anymore like say 30-40 years ago and beyond has probably contributed to a increase of predators but remember they have always been around.
> 
> Fire ants play a big part in death of newly hatched chicks IMO.
> 
> I think the biggest reason for decline in populations is the lack of diverse habitat. You go from lets say 1000 acres of natural pines, oaks, other tree types, various thickness of under brush etc. to a monoculture of planted pines that had the oaks killed and the pine saplings in a few years after planting become a wall of blackberry bushes or gallberries then no turkey is gonna use that type of habitat.


I agree with both the fire ants and habitat. Flood plains or undisturbed large creek bottoms usually always have turkeys. But, once timber is managed for harvest its like musical chairs. First thinned pines are great for a year. Select cut for 2. Clear cut for a couple. If you can manage the undergrowth you can keep turkeys there. Otherwise, they are on the move to something they can walk and utilize.


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## Swamprat (May 24, 2019)

Our property has a good size creek bottom with the hills being a mix of natural pines and turkey oaks. It is sand hill country so not great for plots and trust me we try but always have turkeys utilizing it in some form or fashion.


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## sea trout (May 25, 2019)

I'm not an ol timer or a genius but I hope to be one day!
I'd like to compare what's different in our state than other states where turkeys are.
Like coyotes in Texas, Oklaholma, Kansas.
Like fire ants and armadillos in Florida.
Raccoons, owls and eagles in Maine.
What's different about our state having a turkey decline in the past dozen years and these states that have always had turkey coexist with these predators that many in Georgia are blaming?


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## Mark K (May 25, 2019)

I can tell you that the states you mentioned aren’t as great as you think. 

Let’s start with Kansas. When I first started going out there 10 years ago, there were turkeys everywhere. Now, not so much.

Texas is mostly private land and managed and trapped quite well.

Oklahoma has seen a steady decline, but a lot of that is fire and weather related.

Florida isn’t what it used to be either, but there’s quite a bit of private land there as well. Actually Florida can be hit or miss. Been there for 9 straight days and heard a total of three gobbles. Been for 3 days and limited out. 

If there’s a decline in Georgia as stated then what is the ONE thing we as hunters CAN control?

We can’t control the habitat unless on private lands. 

We can’t control the weather.

The only thing we CAN control is predators on both public and private. Surly predators have some part in a turkeys life cycle, but yet no one wants to do anything about them. 

Work the problem and control what you can control. Everything else is up to the State and Mother Nature.

Really can’t believe we are having this conversation after everyone had a pretty successful season. I know plenty of public land hunters that hunt different WMA’s than I did and they all got to play the game this season. 

The days of walking out to your local field and throwing half a dozen decoys out and shooting your limit are over. Gotta work for what you want...during the season and afterwards.


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## Buckman18 (May 25, 2019)

Mark K said:


> I can tell you that the states you mentioned aren’t as great as you think.
> 
> Let’s start with Kansas. When I first started going out there 10 years ago, there were turkeys everywhere. Now, not so much.
> 
> ...



X2.

I killed my first turkey in 1997, when I was 17, about 3 miles deep in the mountains on Dawson Forest. Here it is in 2019, and I had to walk 3 miles deep on Chattahoochee WMA to kill a turkey this year. Dozens of similar successful and unsuccessful hunts over the past 22 years and they all have one thing in common. Keep walking.

3 years ago, for the first time, I hunted my deer lease in middle Georgia. Turkey hunting there is a piece of cake. Deer hunting also. Before then I’ve personally never experienced anything other than mountain turkeys. Some folks just need to learn to hunt. These are NOT lean times overall.


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## XIronheadX (May 25, 2019)

sea trout said:


> I'm not an ol timer or a genius but I hope to be one day!
> I'd like to compare what's different in our state than other states where turkeys are.
> Like coyotes in Texas, Oklaholma, Kansas.
> Like fire ants and armadillos in Florida.
> ...


I'm not an ol timer either, just experienced. lol Genius don't apply to turkey hunting
What's different is habitat
I think the avg. turkey hunter goes straight to the gimics they use on tv, so they aren't as good of a turkey hunter.
Because turkeys don't gobble, doesn't mean there are no turkeys. 
Anytime I thought there were no turkeys, I ended up with loads on camera. Cameras don't lie.
Deer habitat, and rabbit habitat is different than turkey habitat. Help the turkeys
If 90% of the state is privately owned, but everyone saying there are no turkeys are hunting public, that doesn't mean there are no turkeys.
If too many are wandering around on public land shooting and bumping turkeys all day, there's a good chance they will never see or hear a turkey.
If everyone could shoot 2 or 3 turkeys, there would be no turkeys. lol
I can go back to the year before the state harvest was 35k, people are complaining about no turkeys.
Everyone wants 3 turkeys, but they only want to pay the cost of a license to get one.
Invest in quality leased land to hunt on where you can improve your own hunting. Turkeys aren't free anymore. Control your chances or walk further.
Don't depend on the state to provide you with turkeys.
If I hadn't left 3 trail cams out this year to see all the different turkeys. The flocks of hens and different gobblers. I may have said this was a terrible year. It was that kind of season for turkeys gobbling and responding.
Stop and think about it. If there are 300k birds in the state. Imagine how many are actually 2 yr or older tom turkeys. Then think about how many hunters are snuggled up in a blind with some decoys in a clearing, or crawling around with a fan like a slug with feathers. People flocking like maggots to gobbling birds on public land. What kind of chance do you really have to claim there are turkeys? lol
There are probably not many turkeys on public land. Hunters have harrassed them, shot at them, scared them to death and walked through their nests by the thousands. 
I love looking at the trail cam pics of all these turkeys. It cost money and sweat. I think I'm gonna name the biggest one George


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## herb mcclure (May 25, 2019)

As I have stated before on this forum when referring to predators and the wild turkey declines; hawks are the turkeys worst predators in my estimation. I have studied wild turkeys in lots of places here in Georgia for many years. I really was fortunate to have wild turkeys live at my homeplace for the last 25 years; where I could observe what was going on in relation to what predator was the most destructive predator. Even this season I witness hawks sailing around in the turkey's woods where I hunted; before the leaves had put-out. 
Here is an example of what has happened to the pigeons that one time was numerous in the city of Gainesville, GA.; (due to the feed mills for the chicken industries there). Today, you do not see a pigeon anywhere. I am living there now, and hawks are everywhere. 
This probably should not be told on this subject, but it relates to wild turkey's decline. In my fifty plus years of hunting the same place where I hunted this season; it was the first and only season that I did not see a gobbler there at all. Even, with four trail cameras that have been in the woods since February; only one had photos of a gobbler; in three months.


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## saltysenior (May 25, 2019)

XIronheadX said:


> I'm not an ol timer either, just experienced. lol Genius don't apply to turkey hunting
> What's different is habitat
> I think the avg. turkey hunter goes straight to the gimics they use on tv, so they aren't as good of a turkey hunter.
> Because turkeys don't gobble, doesn't mean there are no turkeys.
> ...


 BUT, there is no hunting or poaching going on in suburban areas such as mine where the population has fallen.


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## XIronheadX (May 25, 2019)

saltysenior said:


> BUT, there is no hunting or poaching going on in suburban areas such as mine where the population has fallen.


It's suburban. Not enough habitat in one place. They roam. Dogs running through the wood lots. Same predators in the creek areas. Non stop disturbance. When they show up here, its not for long.

Just think about what a suburban turkey goes through to flock back up and breed. All they got to rely on is their ears. All that noise to try and find each other through. Requires a lot of roaming around.


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## saltysenior (May 25, 2019)

herb mcclure said:


> As I have stated before on this forum when referring to predators and the wild turkey declines; hawks are the turkeys worst predators in my estimation. I have studied wild turkeys in lots of places here in Georgia for many years. I really was fortunate to have wild turkeys live at my homeplace for the last 25 years; where I could observe what was going on in relation to what predator was the most destructive predator. Even this season I witness hawks sailing around in the turkey's woods where I hunted; before the leaves had put-out.
> Here is an example of what has happened to the pigeons that one time was numerous in the city of Gainesville, GA.; (due to the feed mills for the chicken industries there). Today, you do not see a pigeon anywhere. I am living there now, and hawks are everywhere.
> This probably should not be told on this subject, but it relates to wild turkey's decline. In my fifty plus years of hunting the same place where I hunted this season; it was the first and only season that I did not see a gobbler there at all. Even, with four trail cameras that have been in the woods since February; only one had photos of a gobbler; in three months.




I have seen the damage birds of prey can do on game birds...and they are everywhere this decline is taking place as opposed to other reasons brought forward.
 years back anyone involved with the protection of quail had a varmint rifle in the truck and many traps set on fence post


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## saltysenior (May 25, 2019)

XIronheadX said:


> It's suburban. Not enough habitat in one place. They roam. Dogs running through the wood lots. Same predators in the creek areas. Non stop disturbance. When they show up here, its not for long.
> 
> Just think about what a suburban turkey goes through to flock back up and breed. All they got to rely on is their ears. All that noise to try and find each other through. Requires a lot of roaming around.


 very true,but were'nt all these factors in place when the population was rapidly growing??


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## XIronheadX (May 25, 2019)

saltysenior said:


> I have seen the damage birds of prey can do on game birds...and they are everywhere this decline is taking place as apposed to other reasons brought forward.
> years back anyone involved with the protection of quail had a varmint rifle in the truck and many traps set on fence post


There are definitely loads of hawks in suburban areas. I hear them and see them above all day long. 3 or 4 at a time. Out in the woods of middle Ga. I rarely see a hawk anymore.


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## phillip (May 25, 2019)

Yes there is more


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## Mark K (May 25, 2019)

I trap and help out on a plantation. I won’t comment on hawks...
But, with the right habitat, rabbits and rats help give them another option besides poults and chicks.
Still got to help out any way you can though. I think social media and the need for personal recognition gets most people in trouble when it comes to predators and the removal of them. Sometimes the 3S rule comes into play.


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## Timber1 (May 27, 2019)

I'm seeing a lot more squirrels than I use to.
I think they are eating all the mast and starving the turkeys to death.
I didnt kill a gobbler this year that weighed over 20 pounds.


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## Twiggbuster (May 30, 2019)

My two birds were less than 20 #
And I have 7 - 8 squirrels in my half acre backyard every evening.


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## devolve (May 31, 2019)

Timber1 said:


> I'm seeing a lot more squirrels than I use to.
> I think they are eating all the mast and starving the turkeys to death.
> I didnt kill a gobbler this year that weighed over 20 pounds.


I have more squirrels than ever before this year on my place. Also the first time I’ve had turkeys staying here full time. Killed 1 well over 20 lbs. the 32 coyotes that died on the property prior to this season I believe had more to do with it.


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## Mark K (Jun 1, 2019)

I see everyone talking about 20# plus birds. Where do y’all hunt and are these guesses or actual scale weights?
I’ve hunted numerous different states and 5 species and only have a total of 3 birds topping the 20+ mark...2 Eastern’s and 1 Rio. I hear people every year that all their birds are over 20# including jakes.


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## Buckman18 (Jun 1, 2019)

Mark K said:


> I see everyone talking about 20# plus birds. Where do y’all hunt and are these guesses or actual scale weights?
> I’ve hunted numerous different states and 5 species and only have a total of 3 birds topping the 20+ mark...2 Eastern’s and 1 Rio. I hear people every year that all their birds are over 20# including jakes.



This season, 2 of mine weighed 19, and the other weighed exactly 20 on scales. All mine were from the mountains in deep woods, and there was a poor acorn crop last fall. Surprised me, usually a very big bird here is 18.


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## Mark K (Jun 1, 2019)

Most all my Eastern’s weigh 16-19 max.
Most of my Rio’s weigh 13-16 max...of course I’m generally hunting them at the end of their seasons.


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## XIronheadX (Jun 1, 2019)

Honestly, I've never weighed a bird in my life. If he's got 1 1/2 spurs and a foot of  beard, he can weigh 10 lbs eating lead, and i'm good with it. lol


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## M Sharpe (Jun 1, 2019)

Man is the number ONE predator of turkeys!!


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## M Sharpe (Jun 1, 2019)

Mark K said:


> Most all my Eastern’s weigh 16-19 max.
> Most of my Rio’s weigh 13-16 max...of course I’m generally hunting them at the end of their seasons.


That's pretty light for Rios


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## GLS (Jun 1, 2019)

XIronheadX said:


> Honestly, I've never weighed a bird in my life. If he's got 1 1/2 spurs and a foot of  beard, he can weigh 10 lbs eating lead, and i'm good with it. lol


Once a bird is weighed, without telling a lie, it is deprived of gaining weight after death as the  years go by and the hunt account is retold.  Gil


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## XIronheadX (Jun 1, 2019)

GLS said:


> Once a bird is weighed, without telling a lie, it is deprived of gaining weight after death as the  years go by and the hunt account is retold.  Gil


True Gil. That's another thing I've noticed through the years. I think I've only shared turkey hunting stories with my son.


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## Mark K (Jun 1, 2019)

M Sharpe said:


> That's pretty light for Rios


Yep, but make for easy carrying across the prairie, lol. We were surprised as well. A Rio did produce my largest weight of 22# with 1 3/8” spurs...and a triple beard at that.


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## buckpasser (Jun 1, 2019)

Thomas county is one example of a place that routinely produces Toms over 20 lbs.  Early season is especially good for a heavy weight gobbler. My biggest was over 24 lbs and I’d say my overall average is around 19 in and around Thomas.


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## Timber1 (Jun 1, 2019)

Turkey hens will kill poults. An older hen will kill a younger hens poults. Not sure why but I know they will.


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## devolve (Jun 2, 2019)

Mark K said:


> I see everyone talking about 20# plus birds. Where do y’all hunt and are these guesses or actual scale weights?
> I’ve hunted numerous different states and 5 species and only have a total of 3 birds topping the 20+ mark...2 Eastern’s and 1 Rio. I hear people every year that all their birds are over 20# including jakes.



I used a fish scale this year. I knew that 2nd one I killed in Gilmer county was a giant and had to know what it weighed. 22# on the money. My other 2 this year were in the teens like normal. I did kill a 19# Osceola about 15 years ago. That thing was a GIANT for the species!


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## Mark K (Jun 2, 2019)

devolve said:


> I used a fish scale this year. I knew that 2nd one I killed in Gilmer county was a giant and had to know what it weighed. 22# on the money. My other 2 this year were in the teens like normal. I did kill a 19# Osceola about 15 years ago. That thing was a GIANT for the species!


Yes sir. I weigh all mine as well. That’s what lead to my question about all the 20 pounders being shot. I don’t doubt they’re out there, I’ve just never been privileged enough to shoot them on a consistent basis. Maybe those are the smart birds, I prefer killing the small stupid ones, lol. My biggest overall Eastern was a swamp bird that had an 11.75” beard, 1.5” spurs and weighed only a whopping 16.8lbs. 
My biggest Osceola was a 10.5” beard, 1 3/8” spurs, and a whole 15lbs, lol.


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## Gadget (Jun 2, 2019)

At my club in Crawford co we weigh all birds with digital fish scales and keep harvest records. I'd have to check but I think our heaviest ever is 23lb. We've killed many in the 20-22 range.


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## Timber1 (Jun 2, 2019)

John's Mtn. grows some heavy birds.
West Point use to have some butterballs. Have not hunted there since the early 90's.


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## devolve (Jun 2, 2019)

Mark K said:


> Yes sir. I weigh all mine as well. That’s what lead to my question about all the 20 pounders being shot. I don’t doubt they’re out there, I’ve just never been privileged enough to shoot them on a consistent basis. Maybe those are the smart birds, I prefer killing the small stupid ones, lol. My biggest overall Eastern was a swamp bird that had an 11.75” beard, 1.5” spurs and weighed only a whopping 16.8lbs.
> My biggest Osceola was a 10.5” beard, 1 3/8” spurs, and a whole 15lbs, lol.



I think my other two were 13 and 16 this year. My 22#er has 1.5” spurs and a 11.5” beard. My buddy in south FL killed one this season that had a 9” beard and weighed 9# lol


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## Thunder Head (Jun 3, 2019)

My brother killed a bird that weighed 24. It was the second day of the season. Ive only killed 2-3 that weighed 20 pounds. All were killed in the first or second weekend. 

Id say my average weight is 17 -18 pounds.


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## Ihunt (Jun 4, 2019)

Mark K said:


> Yes sir. I weigh all mine as well. That’s what lead to my question about all the 20 pounders being shot. I don’t doubt they’re out there, I’ve just never been privileged enough to shoot them on a consistent basis. Maybe those are the smart birds, I prefer killing the small stupid ones, lol. My biggest overall Eastern was a swamp bird that had an 11.75” beard, 1.5” spurs and weighed only a whopping 16.8lbs.
> My biggest Osceola was a 10.5” beard, 1 3/8” spurs, and a whole 15lbs, lol.



Go shoot a eastern in north Missouri or southern iowa. You’ll break that record. I killed a 27lb 1 ounce bird in Missouri. He’s my heaviest ever.


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## Mark K (Jun 4, 2019)

That’s what I’m talking about!!


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## Gadget (Jun 5, 2019)

I checked our club records, heaviest bird was 23lbs 5oz 5yrs ago.


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## chase870 (Jun 5, 2019)

I kill every thing that isn't on two legs that kills turkeys or eats their eggs. The horn porn folks started the "no other hunting except trophy deer 150 inch plus" this allowed the coons yotes and other predators to explode


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## XIronheadX (Jun 5, 2019)

Get em, Chase. Sic em.


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2019)

chase870 said:


> I kill every thing that isn't on two legs that kills turkeys or eats their eggs. The horn porn folks started the "no other hunting except trophy deer 150 inch plus" this allowed the coons yotes and other predators to explode


Haha, our rule is everything with 4 legs that isn’t a deer or rabbit has to go.


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## Timber1 (Jun 11, 2019)

I carried 2 off John's Mtn. one morning.
The little 1 weighed 22lbs.10oz. His fat friend weighed just over 24. They were contest birds over on old gobbler or they never would have got weighed. We won btw. Killed within a 1/2 mile of each other. I killed another 22 lbr. a few years later over there. I believe Gadget weighed him. He had a yuge fan. We use to kill some butterballs down at West Point back in the day.


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## Gadget (Jun 12, 2019)

Timber1 said:


> I carried 2 off John's Mtn. one morning.
> The little 1 weighed 22lbs.10oz. His fat friend weighed just over 24. They were contest birds over on old gobbler or they never would have got weighed. We won btw. Killed within a 1/2 mile of each other. I killed another 22 lbr. a few years later over there. I believe Gadget weighed him. He had a yuge fan. We use to kill some butterballs down at West Point back in the day.



I remember that bird, had a huge tail fan and body, was very noticeable. Think his feet and legs were big too. We took pictures in camp with him sitting on a stump log and weighed him with Berkeley digital fish scales. I do believe the birds in NW Georgia are the biggest in the state.


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## Mark K (Jun 12, 2019)

That’s a load of turkeys no matter where you are! A double down here would most likely be under 40#...more like 35# maybe.


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## Timber1 (Jun 19, 2019)

Hunting pressure and habitat change are the two biggest factors in my opinion. The big woods birds populations seem to stay fairly constant over the years. Just a matter of locating them because they do move as food sources change from year to year.


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