# Sin's origin?



## Artfuldodger

We were discussing if sin originated with Adam on another thread. It was brought up that sin was brought into the world by Adam. 

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.

We do have to consider what "world" this verse is talking about. It could be the physical world as Satan was already here in the spiritual world. Satan had already sinned. 
Adam might not have been the creator of sin.

Sin entered the world for God's purpose and this was good.
We see God's creation and sometime don't see everything as good such as cancer, earthquakes, mosquitoes, Ebola,etc.

Genesis 1:31
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day.


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## gemcgrew

The Bible is my first principle.

"In the beginning God created"

God is ultimate cause.


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## gordon 2

God is my first principle. He said not to get wound up in the knowledge of Good and Evil--as in God being other than good. So to say that God is the ultimate cause for all, i.e. Evil, I think one is right there munching with Eve on the apple.

To think that God our Father is holding back on us things other than good so that we can judge Him as the origin and author of evils and Lord it over Him or make Him our equal, or His person beneath us --our servant and a great terror to hack up a thousand ways--is down right shameful. Yet it is our shame, not His.

So it is my science in this case, the science of causes and effects, that the victim of shames is the cause of misstep.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> We were discussing if sin originated with Adam on another thread. It was brought up that sin was brought into the world by Adam.
> 
> Romans 5:12
> Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.
> 
> We do have to consider what "world" this verse is talking about. It could be the physical world as Satan was already here in the spiritual world. Satan had already sinned.
> Adam might not have been the creator of sin.
> 
> Sin entered the world for God's purpose and this was good.
> We see God's creation and sometime don't see everything as good such as cancer, earthquakes, mosquitoes, Ebola,etc.
> 
> Genesis 1:31
> God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day.



How can you say Satan had already sinned?

If I bring home a chocolate cake and sit it on the counter, then tell my kids do not eat any of this cake, and they do anyway...it's my fault? I created their disobedience by making a rule? See how people that claim God created sin are doing the same thing Adam did by placing blame on God? Adam said "The woman you gave me" .


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## Artfuldodger

Let's say that God isn't the author of sin. In relation to Satan and the fallen angels, had they not sinned before Adam? Were they not of the spiritual world?

Maybe God didn't created everything or created his creation to have freewill and things just happening by chance. Wasn't sin in the spiritual world before Adam made it appear in the physical world?

I'm more interested in when sin first appeared than if it was a part of God's creation to include cancer, Ebola, and the natural elements to make heroin.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> How can you say Satan had already sinned?
> 
> If I bring home a chocolate cake and sit it on the counter, then tell my kids do not eat any of this cake, and they do anyway...it's my fault? I created their disobedience by making a rule? See how people that claim God created sin are doing the same thing Adam did by placing blame on God? Adam said "The woman you gave me" .



It depends on your reason for making the rule. Did you do this to prove to your children that they wouldn't be able to follow your rule? Maybe after years of not being able to follow your rules, you gave them a way out.
Your plan included them eating the cake and your alternative was part of your plan even before you had kids. You knew they would eat the cake the moment you set it on the counter and told them, "do not eat any of this cake."
It matters not if you "made, "caused," or "allowed" them to eat the cake as being their creator you didn't have to.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> It depends on your reason for making the rule. Did you do this to prove to your children that they wouldn't be able to follow your rule? Maybe after years of not being able to follow your rules, you gave them a way out.
> Your plan included them eating the cake and your alternative was part of your plan even before you had kids. You knew they would eat the cake the moment you set it on the counter and told them, "do not eat any of this cake."
> It matters not if you "made, "caused," or "allowed" them to eat the cake as being their creator you didn't have to.



 If I were setting them up to do wrong, wouldn't that be deceitful? Doesn't deceit involve lying...and don't we know that God cannot lie?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Let's say that God isn't the author of sin. In relation to Satan and the fallen angels, had they not sinned before Adam? Were they not of the spiritual world?
> 
> Maybe God didn't created everything or created his creation to have freewill and things just happening by chance. Wasn't sin in the spiritual world before Adam made it appear in the physical world?
> 
> I'm more interested in when sin first appeared than if it was a part of God's creation to include cancer, Ebola, and the natural elements to make heroin.



Chronologically Satan and his angels fell after the garden.


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## Artfuldodger

There is also a relation to sin causing death. If it causes spiritual death, maybe it was already here. If it causes physical death then I can't explain what sin did. I guess you just die when you die if you haven't been forgiven.

1 Corinthians 15:21
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

1 Corinthians 15:45
So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> If I were setting them up to do wrong, wouldn't that be deceitful? Doesn't deceit involve lying...and don't we know that God cannot lie?



Wouldn't it depend on your intent? God has made many things, events and other creations, that I consider evil. Sometimes I have a hard time not blaming him.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Wouldn't it depend on your intent? God has made many things, events and other creations, that I consider evil. Sometimes I have a hard time not blaming him.



Evil? I thought we were speaking of sin, which is merely breaking Gods commandment.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Chronologically Satan and his angels fell after the garden.



If that is so then God would have to had made Satan go to Eve. If Satan hadn't fallen yet then he was doing the will of God. Now  if Satan had already fallen then this might not have been God's plan but Satan's.

Satan was created perfect. If "all was good" means everything God created was perfect then Satan would have to fall after God said "all was good."


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Evil? I thought we were speaking of sin, which is merely breaking Gods commandment.



Doing evil is part of breaking God's commandments. If God can't do evil then maybe he created Satan to do evil.
Without evil, we can't have good. 
Without commandments, we can't have sin.
Without morals, we can't have immorality. 
Without the first Adam, we didn't need the second Adam.

Can there be life without death?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Doing evil is part of breaking God's commandments.



Not if you aren't in covenant with God. Only those in covenant can sin. The world is evil and those of the world will do evil, but that is not sin against God for they know Him not and He knows them not..in a relationship manner.


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Wouldn't it depend on your intent? God has made many things, events and other creations, that I consider evil. Sometimes I have a hard time not blaming him.



Arthur, I don't know if this might help, but I get my jump start regards good and evil from the words of Genesis. One cable is clasped on the nature button and the other to the Creator. Boosted into existence, we have an intimate relationship of responsibility to both poles. 

These responsibilities are indicated in Genesis so that we don't get mucked up in who's who, what's what and "How comes?" and confuse who's boosting who, and where to clamp the cables if we loose our charge.

For me, (and this is only my view), the problem comes when man think he's the battery, especially when he says God is the battery and acts otherwise and that nature is not--but really as man is saying this --he is full of estimation  or"judgement" ( I could use other word here) that his battery is really, really making the lights COME ON real good to the extent even of making shadows from God's person! And adding to the mix man states that nature is all shambles having no time for it and ( forgoing his responsibility to it )-- and blames it on ...guess who?

So the way I understand it now is that nature is not evil and seeing it as evil is to simply disregarding our responsibility towards creation in general and the order the Creator set up in regards to relationship with Him and nature.




I seriously wonder sometimes if we were to make a study  of the places  where man has settled himself all over the world--how many of us have our foundations on a flood plain -- both as to nature, but also by extension in God?. I personally think the number is probably high. Hey! Noah!


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## hummerpoo

gordon 2 said:


> God is my first principle. He said not to get wound up in the knowledge of Good and Evil--as in God being other than good.



 sorry Art.

That sounds like a good idea; looking back at the record of God showing me that which I had judged to be evil bringing glory to His name, , and more obviously, attempts that I have made to bring glory to Him of my own efforts.  It’s a good idea for me to abandon any attempt at discerning good and evil and let God show me my part, trusting what He says.


Rm 8:
 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
[Can we then say, “if it is good for God, it is good for us”?]

Is 45:
 5 “I am the LORD, and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God.
I will gird you [Cyrus, king of Persia (150 yrs. Later)], though you have not known Me;
6 That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me.
[a warning to those who deny His sovereignty]
I am the LORD, and there is no other,
7 The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.

…
9 “Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker—
An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!
Will the clay say to the]potter, ‘What are you doing?’
Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?
[ a warning for those who deny His sovereignty]
…
18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited),
“I am the LORD, and there is none else.
19 “I have not spoken in secret,
In some dark land;
I did not say to the offspring of Jacob,
‘Seek Me in a waste place’;
I, the LORD, speak righteousness,
Declaring things that are upright.
[a warning to those who deny His sovereignty]


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## hobbs27

http://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2015/3/3/spiritual-myth-busters-separation-from-god


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Not if you aren't in covenant with God. Only those in covenant can sin. The world is evil and those of the world will do evil, but that is not sin against God for they know Him not and He knows them not..in a relationship manner.



Then you must admit that "all" doesn't mean everyone when it comes to salvation if "all" doesn't mean everyone has sinned.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

You might be on to something Hobbs, lets back up a little;

Romans 3:20
20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Without the Law there is no knowledge of sin.

But in Romans 1, they were without excuse. They didn't know the Law.

Romans 11:17
But some of these branches from Abraham's tree--some of the people of Israel--have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God's special olive tree.

What was the fate of all of the Gentiles before the were grafted in and started receiving the blessing of the promise?


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Doing evil is part of breaking God's commandments. If God can't do evil then maybe he created Satan to do evil.
> Without evil, we can't have good.
> Without commandments, we can't have sin.
> Without morals, we can't have immorality.
> Without the first Adam, we didn't need the second Adam  .
> 
> Can there be life without death?



And that leads to ...?

Without evil, we can't have good. Which displays God's Goodness
Without commandments, we can't have sin. Which displays God's Grace
Without morals, we can't have immorality. Which displays God's Holiness
Without the first Adam, we didn't need the second Adam. Which displays God's Love

God is all in all


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## marketgunner

hobbs27 said:


> Chronologically Satan and his angels fell after the garden.



This  is wrong, Satan was a sinner in the Garden before Adan and Eve. He actually fell  much earlier, the instant the universe was created. Space is the prison, the countdown to judgement is time.


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## marketgunner

God gave His created beings free choice, Satan and the others with him sinned  in Heaven. They were cast here and held in darkness .  Being held in darkness and light is in Heaven from the Throne , where else could they go but a new place, the physical world, a new creation.

Humanity is the method whereby God can redeem the sinners by the brotherhood of flesh and blood through Jesus Christ's death.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> What was the fate of all of the Gentiles before the were grafted in and started receiving the blessing of the promise?


 I think this answers your question.

Romans 2: 10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11  For there is no respect of persons with God. 12  For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience  also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16  In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


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## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> This  is wrong, Satan was a sinner in the Garden before Adan and Eve. He actually fell  much earlier, the instant the universe was created. Space is the prison, the countdown to judgement is time.



Scripture please.


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## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> And that leads to ...?
> 
> Without evil, we can't have good. Which displays God's Goodness
> Without commandments, we can't have sin. Which displays God's Grace
> Without morals, we can't have immorality. Which displays God's Holiness
> Without the first Adam, we didn't need the second Adam. Which displays God's Love
> 
> God is all in all



That's what I'm trying to accept. What about responsibility?  Am I not responsible for my own actions?
If I can see that everything is from the Creator it might help me reconcile my feelings. I'm confused with so many entities controlling my destiny. 

I'm starting with sin. I'll go on from there.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I think this answers your question.
> 
> Romans 2: 10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11  For there is no respect of persons with God. 12  For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience  also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16  In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.



Then doesn't this go against what you are talking about in relation to only a certain group having sinned because of their Covenant with God? 
Gentiles didn't have a Covenant with God. In what relation was Adam's sin to the people not from Adam?

Earlier you said;
Not if you aren't in covenant with God. Only those in covenant can sin.

Doesn't this go against the Romans 2:10-16?

and this;
Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> http://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2015/3/3/spiritual-myth-busters-separation-from-god



A Myth Buster's Conclusion:

 SEPARATION IS AN ILLUSION. What God did for the Son included ALL. 

I can't help but see some Universalism and some Election in this article. 
We were never separated from God? That's the way the Reformed look at it too. 

SAVIOR of ALL PEOPLE, and especially of those who believe. (Universalism?)

John 14:20, "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I IN YOU."(Unity)

Ephesians 4:6, "one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in all."(Unity)

Unity I see but wasn't there a time when we were separate from God? Wasn't there a short period when Jesus was separate from God?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Then doesn't this go against what you are talking about in relation to only a certain group having sinned because of their Covenant with God?
> Gentiles didn't have a Covenant with God. In what relation was Adam's sin to the people not from Adam?
> 
> Earlier you said;
> Not if you aren't in covenant with God. Only those in covenant can sin.
> 
> Doesn't this go against the Romans 2:10-16?
> 
> and this;
> Romans 3:23
> for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,



I don't think so. I believe this is just figurative to explain how some acted or lived that were not under covenant.

 When I was a kid and my parents got on to me for disobeying them, many times I would say, " but Alan gets to do this...or Alan's parents are ok with this." I got the classic answer , " We aren't Alan's parents".

 When those in covenant with God questioned those not in covenant, they would have used terms as if they were.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> A Myth Buster's Conclusion:
> 
> SEPARATION IS AN ILLUSION. What God did for the Son included ALL.
> 
> I can't help but see some Universalism and some Election in this article.
> We were never separated from God? That's the way the Reformed look at it too.
> 
> SAVIOR of ALL PEOPLE, and especially of those who believe. (Universalism?)
> 
> John 14:20, "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I IN YOU."(Unity)
> 
> Ephesians 4:6, "one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in all."(Unity)
> 
> Unity I see but wasn't there a time when we were separate from God? Wasn't there a short period when Jesus was separate from God?



The time of separation was the old covenant, when death reigned from Adam to Moses( Moses=all old covenant)

Whosoever will...That's who is saved. Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Am I not responsible for my own actions?
> If I can see that everything is from the Creator it might help me reconcile my feelings.



Yes, God created that responsibility (Rm. 1,9 ; Is. 45 ; +++)


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## hobbs27

Art, I think you will really enjoy this, especially Ch. 3 & 5 which is my rebuttal to marketgunner post #20

http://www.sheldonemrylibrary.com/devildue.htm


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## marketgunner

hobbs27 said:


> Scripture please.



surely you believe Satan had already sinned before Adam.  Gen 3.

Lucifer original position was in Heaven, where there is no darkness, so 

 Jde 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

and

 2Pe 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

When cast out into darkness, it had to be created.

Gen 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

you will notice one says "CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored" one says "reserved unto judgement" so CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored here is not final judgment but the  "place of the spiritual dead"

so Satan sinned and was here before Adam sinned


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## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> surely you believe Satan had already sinned before Adam.  Gen 3.
> 
> Lucifer original position was in Heaven, where there is no darkness, so
> 
> Jde 1:6
> And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
> 
> and
> 
> 2Pe 2:4
> For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
> 
> When cast out into darkness, it had to be created.
> 
> Gen 1:2
> And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
> 
> you will notice one says "CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored" one says "reserved unto judgement" so CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored here is not final judgment but the  "place of the spiritual dead"
> 
> so Satan sinned and was here before Adam sinned



No, I don't believe that. The bible answers this question for us when it says: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

There's also this, http://www.sheldonemrylibrary.com/devilchapter 3.pdf


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## marketgunner

Why do you think the spiritual is the same as the world? Sin did enter the physical world through Adam, it was already in the spiritual through Satan

Satan is why Adam sinned.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> The time of separation was the old covenant, when death reigned from Adam to Moses( Moses=all old covenant)
> 
> Whosoever will...That's who is saved. Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.



Isaiah 59:1-2
Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, or his ear dull, that it cannot hear; but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear. 

Isn't there a separation from God until we are born again?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Isaiah 59:1-2
> Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, or his ear dull, that it cannot hear; but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.
> 
> Isn't there a separation from God until we are born again?



Sin was the wages of death. Death was separation from God...spiritual death. OC sin separated man from God. But only those in covenant ( descendants of Seth) . Everyone else ( Gentiles) were separated by covenant not sin. So yes until one enters into covenant with God they are separated,, but the invitation to come  ( into covenant) goes out from the Spirit and the Bride to whosoever will.Come take of the water of life freely.


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## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> Why do you think the spiritual is the same as the world? Sin did enter the physical world through Adam, it was already in the spiritual through Satan
> 
> Satan is why Adam sinned.



Flesh is why Adam sinned.


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## marketgunner

why did Satan sin then, he does not have a body, yet.

"Flesh" ,the body ,is not why Adam sinned. He sinned because he is a sinner. Same as us. And you do not sin because Adam sinned. He made a way of sin that you participate in or not. Adam is not responsible for my sin, I am.

The body does not sin but the spirit.


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## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> why did Satan sin then, he does not have a body, yet.


Where does the bible say that Satan sinned?



> "Flesh" ,the body ,is not why Adam sinned. He sinned because he is a sinner. Same as us. And you do not sin because Adam sinned. He made a way of sin that you participate in or not. Adam is not responsible for my sin, I am.



 Adam was not a sinner to begin with until he broke Gods covenant. Sin was imputed on man from Adam to Moses. We may sin but it is not imputed, it is covered by Christ. Adam died {spiritually} in the day he took of the fruit. He died because of imputed sin. We don't , Christ has given us everlasting life!


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Flesh is why Adam sinned.



When Satan and 1/3 of the angels rebelled and were spiritually separated from God what was it they did if not sin?

Flesh might be why Adam sinned or how it materialized in the world, but I don't see where it is a necessary part of sin.
Satan convinced Eve to convince Adam. 

It's almost like talking about who killed Jesus isn't it?

Even the snake had no excuse.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> When Satan and 1/3 of the angels rebelled and were spiritually separated from God what was it they did if not sin?
> 
> Flesh might be why Adam sinned or how it materialized in the world, but I don't see where it is a necessary part of sin.
> Satan convinced Eve to convince Adam.
> 
> It's almost like talking about who killed Jesus isn't it?
> 
> Even the snake had no excuse.



Art...There is no boogeyman Satan. There's many satans in the bible. Satan is adversary, or preacher of a false gospel. There is no fallen angel.


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## Artfuldodger

marketgunner said:


> why did Satan sin then, he does not have a body, yet.
> 
> "Flesh" ,the body ,is not why Adam sinned. He sinned because he is a sinner. Same as us. And you do not sin because Adam sinned. He made a way of sin that you participate in or not. Adam is not responsible for my sin, I am.
> 
> The body does not sin but the spirit.



What part of our makeup is the origin of our sin? I'm assuming it's where ever our conscience  resides. If it's brain matter then it would be considered flesh. We speak of our heart as in a heart of stone or from the bottom of my heart.
Maybe our soul is part of our flesh and our spirit is apart.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

We get a new heart, a new spirit, and God's Spirit. It's a three for one deal!

Or maybe this is just talking about Israel.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Art...There is no boogeyman Satan. There's many satans in the bible. Satan is adversary, or preacher of a false gospel. There is no fallen angel.



Was the one of many Satans who was in the Garden in the form of a snake a preacher of a false gospel? Didn't this spiritual entity appear in the form of a snake or in an actual snake to Eve? 
What would you call the evil event that this spiritual entity performed?


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Art...There is no boogeyman Satan. There's many satans in the bible. Satan is adversary, or preacher of a false gospel. There is no fallen angel.



I recall that you believed Satan was defeated on the cross?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Was the one of many Satans who was in the Garden in the form of a snake a preacher of a false gospel? Didn't this spiritual entity appear in the form of a snake or in an actual snake to Eve?
> What would you call the evil event that this spiritual entity performed?



You need to read the links  I provided above. The serpent could not have been a spiritual entity for celestial beings live for eternity yet the serpent had a life span.
 { upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:}


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## marketgunner

hobbs27 said:


> Where does the bible say that Satan sinned?
> 
> 
> 
> Adam was not a sinner to begin with until he broke Gods covenant. Sin was imputed on man from Adam to Moses. We may sin but it is not imputed, it is covered by Christ. Adam died {spiritually} in the day he took of the fruit. He died because of imputed sin. We don't , Christ has given us everlasting life!



Jhn 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Lucifer sinned.

 Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

You are not responsible for Adam's sin, nor he for yours.


----------



## marketgunner

Artfuldodger said:


> Was the one of many Satans who was in the Garden in the form of a snake a preacher of a false gospel? Didn't this spiritual entity appear in the form of a snake or in an actual snake to Eve?
> What would you call the evil event that this spiritual entity performed?



He was Lucifer,light bearer,  Satan is just Arabic for Adversary. same being, an archangel


----------



## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> Jhn 8:44
> Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
> 
> Lucifer sinned.
> 
> Eze 18:20
> The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
> 
> You are not responsible for Adam's sin, nor he for yours.



Lucifer is not Satan.

https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1091


----------



## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> He was Lucifer,light bearer,  Satan is just Arabic for Adversary. same being, an archangel



Michael is the only arch Angel.


----------



## gemcgrew

gordon 2 said:


> God is my first principle. He said not to get wound up in the knowledge of Good and Evil--as in God being other than good. So to say that God is the ultimate cause for all, i.e. Evil, I think one is right there munching with Eve on the apple.
> 
> To think that God our Father is holding back on us things other than good so that we can judge Him as the origin and author of evils and Lord it over Him or make Him our equal, or His person beneath us --our servant and a great terror to hack up a thousand ways--is down right shameful. Yet it is our shame, not His.
> 
> So it is my science in this case, the science of causes and effects, that the victim of shames is the cause of misstep.


Keep your philosophical science. If God were your first principle, you would agree with me. You would not judge him by human standards. 

God is righteous and sovereign. He is the author of everything that is. It is righteous for God to be the author of evil and sin.

The Bible is the Christian's first principle.

"In the beginning God created"


----------



## marketgunner

hobbs27 said:


> Lucifer is not Satan.
> 
> https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1091



 Isa 14:12
¶
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

 Isa 14:13
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
 Isa 14:14
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
 Isa 14:15
Yet thou shalt be brought down to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, to the sides of the pit.

Luk 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

 Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Job 1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Lucifer=Satan=Devil= old serpent= dragon


----------



## hobbs27

Lucifer is only mentioned once in the bible. And he's called the king of Babylon, not Satan.
Downfall of the King of Babylon
3 When the Lord has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:

“How the oppressor has ceased,
    the insolent fury[a] ceased!
5 The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked,
    the scepter of rulers,
6 that smote the peoples in wrath
    with unceasing blows,
that ruled the nations in anger
    with unrelenting persecution.
7 The whole earth is at rest and quiet;
    they break forth into singing.
8 The cypresses rejoice at you,
    the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
‘Since you were laid low,
    no hewer comes up against us.’
9 Sheol beneath is stirred up
    to meet you when you come,
it rouses the shades to greet you,
    all who were leaders of the earth;
it raises from their thrones
    all who were kings of the nations.
10 All of them will speak
    and say to you:
‘You too have become as weak as we!
    You have become like us!’
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
    the sound of your harps;
maggots are the bed beneath you,
    and worms are your covering.
12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
    O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
    you who laid the nations low!
13 You said in your heart,
    ‘I will ascend to heaven;
above the stars of God
    I will set my throne on high;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
    in the far north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
    I will make myself like the Most High.’


----------



## Artfuldodger

Well it appears we must show that Satan is real or at least was real at some point. From there we can show that he sinned before Adam. I noticed they used the term "allowed," God has allowed Satan. Didn't God create Satan? I he real?

From the link;
Satan is also called the "prince of the power of the air" in Ephesians 2:2. He is the "ruler of this world" in John 12:31. These titles and many more signify Satan’s capabilities. To say, for example, that Satan is the "prince of the power of the air" is to signify that in some way he rules over the world and the people in it.

 This is not to say that he rules the world completely; God is still sovereign. But it does mean that God, in His infinite wisdom, has allowed Satan to operate in this world within the boundaries God has set for him. When the Bible says Satan has power over the world, we must remember that God has given him domain over unbelievers only. Believers are no longer under the rule of Satan (Colossians 1:13). Unbelievers, on the other hand, are caught "in the snare of the devil" (2 Timothy 2:26), lie in the "power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19), and are in bondage to Satan (Ephesians 2:2).

http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-god-world.html


----------



## hobbs27

Art, in both those verses Ephesians and John, the adversary (Satan) is death. Death reigned from Adam to Moses..OC, the OC ended in 70 ad the NC began at the cross. They were dead in tresspasses but made alive in Christ. Christ defeated the prince of this world, ....death.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Art, in both those verses Ephesians and John, the adversary (Satan) is death. Death reigned from Adam to Moses..OC, the OC ended in 70 ad the NC began at the cross. They were dead in tresspasses but made alive in Christ. Christ defeated the prince of this world, ....death.



"brought into the world"

When we read that sin, death, or anything was brought into the world, it doesn't mean that it existed before it was brought into the world?

Satan and fallen angels are just a symbolic way of expressing death?

He11 is a place prepared for Satan(death)? Is this all Satan is? Death?  Such as when Satan(death) is thrown into the Lake of Fire?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> "brought into the world"
> 
> When we read that sin, death, or anything was brought into the world, it doesn't mean that it existed before it was brought into the world?
> 
> Satan and fallen angels are just a symbolic way of expressing death?
> 
> He11 is a place prepared for Satan(death)? Is this all Satan is? Death?  Such as when Satan(death) is thrown into the Lake of Fire?



There's many Satan's in the bible ( adversaries). Not a one of them is a fallen Angel named Lucifer though.


----------



## hobbs27

God is called Satan in the bible?

2 Samuel 24:1
1 Chronicles 21:1


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> There's many Satan's in the bible ( adversaries). Not a one of them is a fallen Angel named Lucifer though.



Are all of these adversaries "death?" Who was He!! prepared for adversaries or death?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> God is called Satan in the bible?
> 
> 2 Samuel 24:1
> 1 Chronicles 21:1



That's very interesting.


----------



## marketgunner

Every use of Satan is the same being as Lucifer, 

Satan is a created being that cannot act without God's allowance.

Satan tempted Job.

The Greek diabolos, the accuser , same being temped Jesus.

We also have an accuser.



Rev 12:10

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 


It is the same being,


Rev 12:9 
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 


 Luk 10:18 
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 

So who fell? who is cast down from Heaven to the earth?
Lucifer, Satan, the accuser, the old serpent, the devil, the great dragon


----------



## Artfuldodger

While I can kinda see in some verses that Satan might be death, that doesn't explain who tempted Jesus in the wilderness. Death didn't tempt Jesus.


----------



## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> Every use of Satan is the same being as Lucifer,
> 
> Satan is a created being that cannot act without God's allowance.
> 
> Satan tempted Job.
> 
> The Greek diabolos, the accuser , same being temped Jesus.
> 
> We also have an accuser.
> 
> 
> 
> Rev 12:10
> 
> And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
> 
> 
> It is the same being,
> 
> 
> Rev 12:9
> And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
> 
> 
> Luk 10:18
> And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
> 
> So who fell? who is cast down from Heaven to the earth?
> Lucifer, Satan, the accuser, the old serpent, the devil, the great dragon



How do you explain Rev 12, the war in heaven takes place after Christ is born ? If the serpent was Satan in Genesis 3. Your chronologically inaccurate.


----------



## Artfuldodger

If Satan was in Heaven until Christ's resurrection, who tempted Eve and Jesus?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> If Satan was in Heaven until Christ's resurrection, who tempted Eve and Jesus?



I'll save the eve question for later, but according to ch 6 Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness, and that adversary was lust...you must read this to understand. You can scroll down a bit to the headline What tempted Jesus

http://www.sheldonemrylibrary.com/devilchapter 6.pdf


----------



## marketgunner

hobbs27 said:


> How do you explain Rev 12, the war in heaven takes place after Christ is born ? If the serpent was Satan in Genesis 3. Your chronologically inaccurate.



One verse explains it. The scope of John's vision

Rev 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored and of death.
 Rev 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Satan was kicked our only one time. ages past.


----------



## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> One verse explains it. The scope of John's vision
> 
> Rev 1:18
> I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored and of death.
> Rev 1:19
> Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
> 
> Satan was kicked our only one time. ages past.




Its like magic...now the bible says what you want it to say...amazing. 
 Now try to answer the question using proper hermeneutics.


----------



## marketgunner

Well, Do you think all of Revelation is future?


----------



## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> Well, Do you think all of Revelation is future?



Actually... I think none of it is, but Revelation 22 continues forever.

 This is why Revelation is fulfilled..among many many other reasons.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;


----------



## hummerpoo

Those who have read the linked material by Sheldon Emry might want to also take a look at this one.  It is easy to recognize the exegetical method and teaching style.

A few quotes follow.

http://blog.amprom.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Heirs-of-the-Promise1.pdf

"Why, of all the people of the earth, has
it been only this white Caucasian race,
these so-called 'Gentiles,' who have claimed
Jesus Christ as their God, and who have
taken the Bible as the foundation of their
religion?"
The answer — the truth which is avoided
and even denied by the clergy — is simple.
These people are the Israelites, the
children of Abraham, God's chosen people.
………………………………

A new continent to the west, a New
World, was discovered by Columbus and
other explorers. Persecution of Christians
in Europe began a migration to the New
World, that began as a trickle and later
became a flood.
2,500 years before that, while Israel was
still in Palestine, God had told King David
in 2 Samuel:
“Moreover I will appoint a place for my
people Israel, and will plant them, that
they may dwell in a place of their own,
and move no more; neither shall the
children of wickedness afflict them any
more, as before time.”
----- 2 Samuel 7:10
……………………………………

Our pilgrim fathers, who were Christian
Israelites from Europe and knew God's
promises, called this North American continent
"The Wilderness" and "New
Canaanland." They said they had come
hither to establish the Kingdom of God.
God turned Israel from Antichrists in
Europe, and God took them one of a city and
two of a family, and He brought them to
Zion.
…………………………..

America is that new land, New Israel.
America is the nation born in a day on July
4, 1776, exactly the prophesied 2520 years
after Israel had gone into the Assyrian captivity.
In America God made a little one a
thousand, and a small a strong nation:

…………………………….
Today the great Israel nation of America
is surrounded and invaded by the socialist-
Humanist Antichrist forces. The wicked of
the earth, who are the enemies of Jesus
Christ, have grown strong and arrogant in
our land. They have infiltrated our schools,
the news media, even churches and government
in their attempt to keep you in ignorance
of your identity as Israelites. They
are attempting to steal your heritage that
they may conquer America and take rule
over the whole earth.
But God Almighty has decreed the
destruction of those who hate Jesus Christ
and His true Israel People. In a last battle
they shall be defeated, we shall be delivered,
and the earth will be prepared for the
return of Jesus Christ and the great
Kingdom Age. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Amen.

I highly recommend reading the pamphlet in its entirety.  I found it enlightening.  It has a lot of scripture quotes, none of which I have ever seen interpreted in this way.

If you have read this much, you might want to google:

Christian Identity
America’s Promise Ministries
White Supremacists


----------



## gordon 2

hummerpoo said:


> Those who have read the linked material by Sheldon Emry might want to also take a look at this one.  It is easy to recognize the exegetical method and teaching style.
> 
> A few quotes follow.
> 
> http://blog.amprom.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Heirs-of-the-Promise1.pdf
> 
> "Why, of all the people of the earth, has
> it been only this white Caucasian race,
> these so-called 'Gentiles,' who have claimed
> Jesus Christ as their God, and who have
> taken the Bible as the foundation of their
> religion?"
> The answer — the truth which is avoided
> and even denied by the clergy — is simple.
> These people are the Israelites, the
> children of Abraham, God's chosen people.
> ………………………………
> 
> A new continent to the west, a New
> World, was discovered by Columbus and
> other explorers. Persecution of Christians
> in Europe began a migration to the New
> World, that began as a trickle and later
> became a flood.
> 2,500 years before that, while Israel was
> still in Palestine, God had told King David
> in 2 Samuel:
> “Moreover I will appoint a place for my
> people Israel, and will plant them, that
> they may dwell in a place of their own,
> and move no more; neither shall the
> children of wickedness afflict them any
> more, as before time.”
> ----- 2 Samuel 7:10
> ……………………………………
> 
> Our pilgrim fathers, who were Christian
> Israelites from Europe and knew God's
> promises, called this North American continent
> "The Wilderness" and "New
> Canaanland." They said they had come
> hither to establish the Kingdom of God.
> God turned Israel from Antichrists in
> Europe, and God took them one of a city and
> two of a family, and He brought them to
> Zion.
> …………………………..
> 
> America is that new land, New Israel.
> America is the nation born in a day on July
> 4, 1776, exactly the prophesied 2520 years
> after Israel had gone into the Assyrian captivity.
> In America God made a little one a
> thousand, and a small a strong nation:
> 
> …………………………….
> Today the great Israel nation of America
> is surrounded and invaded by the socialist-
> Humanist Antichrist forces. The wicked of
> the earth, who are the enemies of Jesus
> Christ, have grown strong and arrogant in
> our land. They have infiltrated our schools,
> the news media, even churches and government
> in their attempt to keep you in ignorance
> of your identity as Israelites. They
> are attempting to steal your heritage that
> they may conquer America and take rule
> over the whole earth.
> But God Almighty has decreed the
> destruction of those who hate Jesus Christ
> and His true Israel People. In a last battle
> they shall be defeated, we shall be delivered,
> and the earth will be prepared for the
> return of Jesus Christ and the great
> Kingdom Age. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
> Amen.
> 
> I highly recommend reading the pamphlet in its entirety.  I found it enlightening.  It has a lot of scripture quotes, none of which I have ever seen interpreted in this way.
> 
> If you have read this much, you might want to google:
> 
> Christian Identity
> America’s Promise Ministries
> White Supremacists



Dog gone!


----------



## marketgunner

hobbs27 said:


> Actually... I think none of it is, but Revelation 22 continues forever.
> 
> This is why Revelation is fulfilled..among many many other reasons.
> 
> The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;



I remember now,

What do you do with this?

 Psa 2:9
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Rev 2:27
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 Rev 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Will Jesus be born as a child again in Rev or has it already occurred and is being referred to from Heaven(outside of time) by John, what he saw, past tense?


----------



## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> I remember now,
> 
> What do you do with this?
> 
> Psa 2:9
> Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
> 
> Rev 2:27
> And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.



This is about those that overcame at His return and they would rule with Him. Reference the parable of the noble man Luke 19:12-27 the nobleman said ; occupy till come.



marketgunner said:


> Rev 12:5
> And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.



This is of the birth, skips the death, burial, and resurrection and goes straight to the throne. Revelation has a way of ramping up and calming downing, ramping up and calming down, much like someone revving an engine. Not like it blowing up though.



marketgunner said:


> Rev 19:15
> And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
> 
> Will Jesus be born as a child again in Rev or has it already occurred and is being referred to from Heaven(outside of time) by John, what he saw, past tense?



The rod is symbolic of His rule over the kingdom. The only past tense is from Christ birth, it goes no further than that, why should it, the book is the unveiling of Jesus Christ?


----------



## hobbs27

hummerpoo said:


> Those who have read the linked material by Sheldon Emry might want to also take a look at this one.  It is easy to recognize the exegetical method and teaching style.
> 
> A few quotes follow.
> 
> http://blog.amprom.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Heirs-of-the-Promise1.pdf
> 
> "Why, of all the people of the earth, has
> it been only this white Caucasian race,
> these so-called 'Gentiles,' who have claimed
> Jesus Christ as their God, and who have
> taken the Bible as the foundation of their
> religion?"
> The answer — the truth which is avoided
> and even denied by the clergy — is simple.
> These people are the Israelites, the
> children of Abraham, God's chosen people.
> ………………………………
> 
> A new continent to the west, a New
> World, was discovered by Columbus and
> other explorers. Persecution of Christians
> in Europe began a migration to the New
> World, that began as a trickle and later
> became a flood.
> 2,500 years before that, while Israel was
> still in Palestine, God had told King David
> in 2 Samuel:
> “Moreover I will appoint a place for my
> people Israel, and will plant them, that
> they may dwell in a place of their own,
> and move no more; neither shall the
> children of wickedness afflict them any
> more, as before time.”
> ----- 2 Samuel 7:10
> ……………………………………
> 
> Our pilgrim fathers, who were Christian
> Israelites from Europe and knew God's
> promises, called this North American continent
> "The Wilderness" and "New
> Canaanland." They said they had come
> hither to establish the Kingdom of God.
> God turned Israel from Antichrists in
> Europe, and God took them one of a city and
> two of a family, and He brought them to
> Zion.
> …………………………..
> 
> America is that new land, New Israel.
> America is the nation born in a day on July
> 4, 1776, exactly the prophesied 2520 years
> after Israel had gone into the Assyrian captivity.
> In America God made a little one a
> thousand, and a small a strong nation:
> 
> …………………………….
> Today the great Israel nation of America
> is surrounded and invaded by the socialist-
> Humanist Antichrist forces. The wicked of
> the earth, who are the enemies of Jesus
> Christ, have grown strong and arrogant in
> our land. They have infiltrated our schools,
> the news media, even churches and government
> in their attempt to keep you in ignorance
> of your identity as Israelites. They
> are attempting to steal your heritage that
> they may conquer America and take rule
> over the whole earth.
> But God Almighty has decreed the
> destruction of those who hate Jesus Christ
> and His true Israel People. In a last battle
> they shall be defeated, we shall be delivered,
> and the earth will be prepared for the
> return of Jesus Christ and the great
> Kingdom Age. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
> Amen.
> 
> I highly recommend reading the pamphlet in its entirety.  I found it enlightening.  It has a lot of scripture quotes, none of which I have ever seen interpreted in this way.
> 
> If you have read this much, you might want to google:
> 
> Christian Identity
> America’s Promise Ministries
> White Supremacists



Yeah, he's more of a futurist on eschatology and I totally disagree on those points, but his book on giving the devil his due seems spot on.
 I can't use just preterist material on here all the time.


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> Yeah, he's more of a futurist on eschatology and I totally disagree on those points, but his book on giving the devil his due seems spot on.
> I can't use just preterist material on here all the time.



That depends on the hermeneutic doesn't it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I'll save the eve question for later, but according to ch 6 Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness, and that adversary was lust...you must read this to understand. You can scroll down a bit to the headline What tempted Jesus
> 
> http://www.sheldonemrylibrary.com/devilchapter 6.pdf



Satan being lust just sounds so reaching. Wow,  we are covering many topics on this one thread but we must find out if Satan is real. Otherwise Adam was the beginning of sin and evil. That before Adam "all was good" in Heaven.

For me to suddenly believe Satan isn't a real spirit that fell from Heaven and is just lust or death, might take a little soul searching.
Similar to beliefs on He11 and the Lake of Fire. It's something I've never even considered.

Satan being Lust as Christ's temptation being the same as our temptation is the same as our conscience. There is nothing mystical or religious in the concept of a conscience.
Lust is just a part of our flesh/mind/conscience.
If this is so then temptations are actually from ourselves. We can't blame Satan for our actions. This makes us responsible. Then I've always heard Satan/lust has no power over Christians. That's a new concept if Satan is lust.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Those who have read the linked material by Sheldon Emry might want to also take a look at this one.  It is easy to recognize the exegetical method and teaching style.
> 
> A few quotes follow.
> 
> http://blog.amprom.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Heirs-of-the-Promise1.pdf
> 
> "Why, of all the people of the earth, has
> it been only this white Caucasian race,
> these so-called 'Gentiles,' who have claimed
> Jesus Christ as their God, and who have
> taken the Bible as the foundation of their
> religion?"
> The answer — the truth which is avoided
> and even denied by the clergy — is simple.
> These people are the Israelites, the
> children of Abraham, God's chosen people.
> ………………………………
> 
> A new continent to the west, a New
> World, was discovered by Columbus and
> other explorers. Persecution of Christians
> in Europe began a migration to the New
> World, that began as a trickle and later
> became a flood.
> 2,500 years before that, while Israel was
> still in Palestine, God had told King David
> in 2 Samuel:
> “Moreover I will appoint a place for my
> people Israel, and will plant them, that
> they may dwell in a place of their own,
> and move no more; neither shall the
> children of wickedness afflict them any
> more, as before time.”
> ----- 2 Samuel 7:10
> ……………………………………
> 
> Our pilgrim fathers, who were Christian
> Israelites from Europe and knew God's
> promises, called this North American continent
> "The Wilderness" and "New
> Canaanland." They said they had come
> hither to establish the Kingdom of God.
> God turned Israel from Antichrists in
> Europe, and God took them one of a city and
> two of a family, and He brought them to
> Zion.
> …………………………..
> 
> America is that new land, New Israel.
> America is the nation born in a day on July
> 4, 1776, exactly the prophesied 2520 years
> after Israel had gone into the Assyrian captivity.
> In America God made a little one a
> thousand, and a small a strong nation:
> 
> …………………………….
> Today the great Israel nation of America
> is surrounded and invaded by the socialist-
> Humanist Antichrist forces. The wicked of
> the earth, who are the enemies of Jesus
> Christ, have grown strong and arrogant in
> our land. They have infiltrated our schools,
> the news media, even churches and government
> in their attempt to keep you in ignorance
> of your identity as Israelites. They
> are attempting to steal your heritage that
> they may conquer America and take rule
> over the whole earth.
> But God Almighty has decreed the
> destruction of those who hate Jesus Christ
> and His true Israel People. In a last battle
> they shall be defeated, we shall be delivered,
> and the earth will be prepared for the
> return of Jesus Christ and the great
> Kingdom Age. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
> Amen.
> 
> I highly recommend reading the pamphlet in its entirety.  I found it enlightening.  It has a lot of scripture quotes, none of which I have ever seen interpreted in this way.
> 
> If you have read this much, you might want to google:
> 
> Christian Identity
> America’s Promise Ministries
> White Supremacists



I wish we could continue this discussion on the "Gentile branches cut off" thread. I have looked at the new Israel as being the Church. This takes it even one step beyond this to somehow bring America into scripture.
I don't agree the we need to help God fulfill his plan in Israel as he will do that regardless of where and whom Israel will be. All of God's Israel will be saved. This has nothing to do with God being a respecter of men. It has everything to do with God being a respecter of his promise.

Romans 11:24
For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

I can't say that the current country and it's inhabitants of Israel is the same as the new Israel in scripture but I can't read Romans 11 and not see a Nation.
Some verses in the Bible are about a Nation and some verses are about individuals. I realize nations are made of individuals yet God can elect individuals from hardened nations.

It's a lot to think about as we all use hermeneutics.


----------



## marketgunner

hobbs27 said:


> This is about those that overcame at His return and they would rule with Him. Reference the parable of the noble man Luke 19:12-27 the nobleman said ; occupy till come.
> 
> 
> 
> This is of the birth, skips the death, burial, and resurrection and goes straight to the throne. Revelation has a way of ramping up and calming downing, ramping up and calming down, much like someone revving an engine. Not like it blowing up though.
> 
> 
> 
> The rod is symbolic of His rule over the kingdom. The only past tense is from Christ birth, it goes no further than that, why should it, the book is the unveiling of Jesus Christ?



So you agree there is past events referred to in Rev.

so if you do not think Satan was cast out more than once, it is an event that has already occurred .

thus the events and descriptions of Satan are as I said.
He was thrown down one time, outside of time into time and space. 

thus

Rev 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

past present and future


----------



## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> So you agree there is past events referred to in Rev.
> 
> so if you do not think Satan was cast out more than once, it is an event that has already occurred .
> 
> thus the events and descriptions of Satan are as I said.
> He was thrown down one time, outside of time into time and space.
> 
> thus
> 
> Rev 1:19
> Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
> 
> past present and future



There is more than one adversary (Satan) spoken of in the bible. You're attempting to make a single adversary, and call it a fallen angel from this verse in Revelation.
 Here's your problem. The war in heaven takes place after Christ is born on earth. ..Yes John see's Christ birth, but Revelation is not as scattered as you make it out to be. It's an awesome epistle to the seven churches of that time and it is the unveiling of Jesus Christ as Lord!


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Those who have read the linked material by Sheldon Emry might want to also take a look at this one.  It is easy to recognize the exegetical method and teaching style.
> 
> A few quotes follow.
> 
> http://blog.amprom.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Heirs-of-the-Promise1.pdf
> 
> "Why, of all the people of the earth, has
> it been only this white Caucasian race,
> these so-called 'Gentiles,' who have claimed
> Jesus Christ as their God, and who have
> taken the Bible as the foundation of their
> religion?"
> The answer — the truth which is avoided
> and even denied by the clergy — is simple.
> These people are the Israelites, the
> children of Abraham, God's chosen people.
> ………………………………
> 
> A new continent to the west, a New
> World, was discovered by Columbus and
> other explorers. Persecution of Christians
> in Europe began a migration to the New
> World, that began as a trickle and later
> became a flood.
> 2,500 years before that, while Israel was
> still in Palestine, God had told King David
> in 2 Samuel:
> “Moreover I will appoint a place for my
> people Israel, and will plant them, that
> they may dwell in a place of their own,
> and move no more; neither shall the
> children of wickedness afflict them any
> more, as before time.”
> ----- 2 Samuel 7:10
> ……………………………………
> 
> Our pilgrim fathers, who were Christian
> Israelites from Europe and knew God's
> promises, called this North American continent
> "The Wilderness" and "New
> Canaanland." They said they had come
> hither to establish the Kingdom of God.
> God turned Israel from Antichrists in
> Europe, and God took them one of a city and
> two of a family, and He brought them to
> Zion.
> …………………………..
> 
> America is that new land, New Israel.
> America is the nation born in a day on July
> 4, 1776, exactly the prophesied 2520 years
> after Israel had gone into the Assyrian captivity.
> In America God made a little one a
> thousand, and a small a strong nation:
> 
> …………………………….
> Today the great Israel nation of America
> is surrounded and invaded by the socialist-
> Humanist Antichrist forces. The wicked of
> the earth, who are the enemies of Jesus
> Christ, have grown strong and arrogant in
> our land. They have infiltrated our schools,
> the news media, even churches and government
> in their attempt to keep you in ignorance
> of your identity as Israelites. They
> are attempting to steal your heritage that
> they may conquer America and take rule
> over the whole earth.
> But God Almighty has decreed the
> destruction of those who hate Jesus Christ
> and His true Israel People. In a last battle
> they shall be defeated, we shall be delivered,
> and the earth will be prepared for the
> return of Jesus Christ and the great
> Kingdom Age. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
> Amen.
> 
> I highly recommend reading the pamphlet in its entirety.  I found it enlightening.  It has a lot of scripture quotes, none of which I have ever seen interpreted in this way.
> 
> If you have read this much, you might want to google:
> 
> Christian Identity
> America’s Promise Ministries
> White Supremacists



I'm going to read and pray about this information but I do have one question. If I only had a Bible, God's written Word, is this the message I'd gather? This man is a very good teacher. That I can't deny. I saved his message on my computer.

I can't even see Israel as the Church much less the "Great White Race."

It's one more step away than I've ever heard. Away from Israel. I read that report and it's very informative. I don't see anything in that report scripturally that supports the change from Israel to the White race.
The report does a very good job explaining covenants, nations, Israel, predestination, and election but loses me when the "man" E. Raymond Capt enters the report.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> How do you explain Rev 12, the war in heaven takes place after Christ is born ? If the serpent was Satan in Genesis 3. Your chronologically inaccurate.



A friend suggest we look at scripture as revelation date, not its effective date. In other words Rev 12:10 doesn't put Satan's fall in a chronological order.

It doesn't actually mean Satan's fall happened after Christ's birth.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Even if Satan is still in Heaven, he is the one who tempted Eve, therefore being the first spirit to sin. Spirits can sin outside of covenant, perhaps man can't. Eve wasn't in covenant therefore Adam was the first man that brought sin into the world.

From a link showing Satan is still in Heaven;

From centuries on, this classic tale became a favored doctrinal position for many Churches. Most every Christian teacher in America will convince the church that Satan fell from heaven before God created Adam and Eve. However, is such an account scriptural? What does the bible say about Satan's fall from heaven? Is Satan still in heaven, is he stuck on the earth or is he in He11 The account of Satan's descent into He11 is detailed in Isaiah 14.

Presently, Satan resides in heaven with his celestial forces. He has the authority to travel to the earth with these forces. During the tribulation, he wages a war in heaven, loses, attempts to wage a war on earth, loses again, is exiled to He11 for one thousand years, is released and wars against Jesus, loses again, and is permanently exiled to the Lake of Fire.

John Milton may have written a very poetic and fantastical tale, but a tale it ought to remain. Christians must understand that Satan is still in heaven. They must acknowledge that it will take a war in heaven midway into the tribulation in order to get him kicked out. Most importantly, Christians must understand that they were created in order to be the reason Satan gets kicked out.

http://www.warsofgod.com/03_satan_in_heaven.html

Any and all of these theories are only showing when Satan will or has fallen. Perhaps he has different types of "fallings"
These don't necessarily show when he first sinned.

Satan's first fall;
Satan sinned prior to Adam and Eve sinning, as Richard indicated in his answer (which you linked). At that time he "fell" in the sense that DTest was asking about in his question. (i.e. "fell from grace".)

http://christianity.stackexchange.c...get-cast-out-of-heaven-or-is-that-yet-to-come


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> This takes it even one step beyond this to somehow bring America into scripture.



Emry makes scripture say what he wants it to say; combining where necessary, dividing where necessary, spiritualize, historicity, narrative, audience, what ever it takes to get there.  That’s his primary hermeneutic.



> All of God's Israel will be saved. This has nothing to do with God being a respecter of men. It has everything to do with God being a respecter of his promise.



This (Rm. 24) has everything to do with God NOT being a respecter of persons (Acts 10:1-11:24;Rm. 2:1-5:2; Du. 10:17; 2 Ch. 19:7) and his promise to Abraham and his spiritual children  (God’s Kingdom).



> Romans 11:24
> For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
> 
> ... I can't read Romans 11 and not see a Nation.
> Some verses in the Bible are about a Nation and some verses are about individuals. I realize nations are made of individuals yet God can elect individuals from hardened nations.



Yes, the nation of Israel (the wheat along with the tares) is there negatively, for illustration, but the Kingdom (the wheat) is the lesson being taught.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm going to read and pray about this information but I do have one question. If I only had a Bible, God's written Word, is this the message I'd gather? This man is a very good teacher. That I can't deny. I saved his message on my computer.
> 
> I can't even see Israel as the Church much less the "Great White Race."
> 
> It's one more step away than I've ever heard. Away from Israel. I read that report and it's very informative. I don't see anything in that report scripturally that supports the change from Israel to the White race.
> The report does a very good job explaining covenants, nations, Israel, predestination, and election but loses me when the "man" E. Raymond Capt enters the report.




Praise God;
I wasn't hurt when I fell out of my chair.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Emry makes scripture say what he wants it to say; combining where necessary, dividing where necessary, spiritualize, historicity, narrative, audience, what ever it takes to get there.  That’s his primary hermeneutic.
> 
> This (Rm. 24) has everything to do with God NOT being a respecter of persons (Acts 10:1-11:24;Rm. 2:1-5:2; Du. 10:17; 2 Ch. 19:7) and his promise to Abraham and his spiritual children  (God’s Kingdom).
> 
> Yes, the nation of Israel (the wheat along with the tares) is there negatively, for illustration, but the Kingdom (the wheat) is the lesson being taught.



Thanks for clearing this up as I must agree. Last night I thought you were in agreement with Emry.

Peace through understanding.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> A friend suggest we look at scripture as revelation date, not its effective date. In other words Rev 12:10 doesn't put Satan's fall in a chronological order.
> 
> It doesn't actually mean Satan's fall happened after Christ's birth.



Ask your friend why was Satan persecuting the woman and her child before he was cast out, and ask your friend why Salvation and Christ kingdom was proclaimed at the moment this dragon was cast out, if this dragon was cast out before he tempted eve?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Ask your friend why was Satan persecuting the woman and her child before he was cast out, and ask your friend why Salvation and Christ kingdom was proclaimed at the moment this dragon was cast out, if this dragon was cast out before he tempted eve .



He wasn't using it in relation to this topic. I was using his outlook in reference to this thread. 
He believes everything is already established or was during creation and only revealed at various times.

I've heard others believe this way including free will and predestination believers. That God created everything in six days. Everything has already been determined and will only be revealed at various times.
The main example is Election. The elect are already elected, only their reveal dates are new. The New Covenant wasn't new but only the reveal date was new.
Even if God looks ahead and sees who his children are as in who will come to him, they are then his children. Only their reveal times are new to them.
Therefore events are revelation dates and not really effectual dates. It's like the Bible story had already happened in Word even before creation and reading it is the revealing points of the events.
The Bible in Word was written before time and only revealed to man as the foretold events transpired.


----------



## hobbs27

Marketgunner and Art, no matter how anyone tries to twist this story in Rev 12. We have the dragon persecuting Christ and Christians from Christ's birth and throughout His ministry, then he is cast out of heaven and upon that happening Christ Kingdom is proclaimed and Salvation is given to man.

 In no way can those events by their action be before a Satan tempted eve in the garden...matter of fact, it was because Adam was deceived by eve through Satan that Christ had to come here.


----------



## marketgunner

hobbs27 said:


> There is more than one adversary (Satan) spoken of in the bible. You're attempting to make a single adversary, and call it a fallen angel from this verse in Revelation.
> Here's your problem. The war in heaven takes place after Christ is born on earth. ..Yes John see's Christ birth, but Revelation is not as scattered as you make it out to be. It's an awesome epistle to the seven churches of that time and it is the unveiling of Jesus Christ as Lord!



There are different visions , different subject matter. It cannot be chronological because it is outside of time.

Satan was expelled long ago and that is what started God dealing with sin.


----------



## marketgunner

hobbs27 said:


> Marketgunner and Art, no matter how anyone tries to twist this story in Rev 12. We have the dragon persecuting Christ and Christians from Christ's birth and throughout His ministry, then he is cast out of heaven and upon that happening Christ Kingdom is proclaimed and Salvation is given to man.
> 
> In no way can those events by their action be before a Satan tempted eve in the garden...matter of fact, it was because Adam was deceived by eve through Satan that Christ had to come here.



Rev 12 1 and Rev v 7 are not the same narrative. Different view of separate events, same Satan


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Marketgunner and Art, no matter how anyone tries to twist this story in Rev 12. We have the dragon persecuting Christ and Christians from Christ's birth and throughout His ministry, then he is cast out of heaven and upon that happening Christ Kingdom is proclaimed and Salvation is given to man.
> 
> In no way can those events by their action be before a Satan tempted eve in the garden...matter of fact, it was because Adam was deceived by eve through Satan that Christ had to come here.



Then Satan deceived Eve from Heaven or coming down from Heaven. He was cast out after Christ's birth but he was performing his deeds before this casting out.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Then Satan deceived Eve from Heaven or coming down from Heaven. He was cast out after Christ's birth but he was performing his deeds before this casting out.



What if heaven here is not Gods abode, but Jerusalem? Have I not made the case over and over that Jerusalem and the temple were the heaven and earth that had to pass away so the law would be fulfilled? 
 Now read the same text with that in mind that there was a great literal and spiritual war in Jerusalem ( 70ad) and Satan was cast out, and then Christ Salvation was given to man and His Kingdom proclaimed.

Besides, do you really think God would reside with an evil rebellious Angel?


----------



## marketgunner

Artfuldodger said:


> Then Satan deceived Eve from Heaven or coming down from Heaven. He was cast out after Christ's birth but he was performing his deeds before this casting out.



Satan was here.

Job 1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Satan was in the Garden

 Eze 28:13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

 Eze 28:14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
 Eze 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


 Eze 28:17
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.


----------



## marketgunner

If a sinful Satan would be allowed in Heaven, why not a sinful me?


----------



## hobbs27

The Lord has been very good to me tonight.

Lets look...
  23 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,  2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.  

Notes: Jude   9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 

The body of Moses being a corporate body of the old testament.

 Revelation 12 7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,  8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.  9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
 The same war? This would mean the Scribes and Pharisee's would be the Satan in this script..Could it be? Just read a little of what Jesus had to say of them...Awesome Amazing reading here, The scribe and Pharisee being Satan trying to hold on to the "corporate body of moses..Old covenant, were defeated and cast out of heaven...Jerusalem"  Then after this we enter matthew 24 which is no doubt the destruction of the temple and the passing of heaven and earth!!!!!

3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe,[a] that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.  4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.  5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments.  6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,  7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’  8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ,* and you are all brethren.  9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.  10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.  11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.  12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.  14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.[c]

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored as yourselves.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’  17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies[d] the gold?  18 And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’  19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?  20 Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.  21 He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells[e] in it.  22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.  24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.[f]  26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.  28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,  30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.  32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.  33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored  34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,  35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.  36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Jesus Laments over Jerusalem

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!  38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;  39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”[g]*


----------



## marketgunner

So you place the most importance on English punctuation put in from a Greek Translation which has no punctuation nor verse separation to indicate changes in subject.

The generation that would see the signs  would not pass away or the generation would not pass away  that was hearing about the generation that would see the signs ?


Since ever eye did not see Jesus return, it hasn't happened yet

 Rev 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

so maybe it is time to reconsider 70AD


----------



## Artfuldodger

Is it possible that the spirit I'll call satan was dwelling within the scribes and Pharisees?


----------



## Artfuldodger

marketgunner said:


> If a sinful Satan would be allowed in Heaven, why not a sinful me?



Could it be that God allowed Satan into Heaven to accuse the brethen but after the Cross, Satan was slain?
You said our spirits were fallen angels. We were in Heaven when we fell. We sinned in Heaven under the presence of God. Where did we wait for our physical bodies after we fell? 
Maybe he didn't reside in Heaven but God allowed Satan to come before him on occasion. God will not allow a sinful creature to make his permanent residence in heaven.

Job 2:1
On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him.

Job 1:6
One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the LORD, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them.

This is all knew to me, I'm learning.


----------



## Artfuldodger

marketgunner said:


> If a sinful Satan would be allowed in Heaven, why not a sinful me?



If a sinful you fell under the presence of God when you were an Angel, what will keep you from falling as man after gaining salvation through redemption?

Now if what you did as an angel when you fell wasn't sin, you could say you only sinned as a man and that salvation is for my man/flesh/physical sins and you weren't accountable until you became a man.
If this was so then I guess you would have never fallen from Heaven. 
When did you become a "child of God?"

How many times does the falling from Heaven, redemption as a man, and re-entering Heaven happen?


----------



## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> So you place the most importance on English punctuation put in from a Greek Translation which has no punctuation nor verse separation to indicate changes in subject.
> 
> The generation that would see the signs  would not pass away or the generation would not pass away  that was hearing about the generation that would see the signs ?
> 
> 
> Since ever eye did not see Jesus return, it hasn't happened yet
> 
> Rev 1:7
> Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
> 
> so maybe it is time to reconsider 70AD



To reconsider the first century as the time of Christ return would be to make a liar of Christ. He said He would return within that generation.. He also said 

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Rev.1:1 The things in Revelation "must" shortly come to pass. 
 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; 

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 Yes every eye shall see Him...but They also which pierced Him....You think they are still alive today to witness His return?
 Actually Rev 1:7 is from Zechariah 12:10. John also references it at the crucifixion in John 19:37, then here in Revelation 1:7...see many saw Him at the cross and fulfilled a portion of this Zechariah prophecy, but when He returned every eye saw Him....Remember what He told Caiaphas? Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

 Caiaphas got the promise to see His return, and Peter was told he would die before Christ's return but John wouldn't... John lived past 70 ad, Peter did not .

 John 21: 20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?


In case that isn't enough here's a 101 more reasons I believe Christ came back in the first century.. He said so.
1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)


2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)


3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)


4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12) 
 5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17) 
 6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7) 
 7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23) 
 8. "....the age about to come." (Matt. 12:32) 
 9. "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27) 
 10. "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)


11. "'When the owner of the vineyard com es, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45) 
 12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34) 
 13. "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69) 
 14. "The kingdom of God is at hand." (Mk. 1:15) 
 15. "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. ....They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them." (Mk. 12:9,12) 
 16. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.? (Mk. 13:30) 
 17. ?Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?? (Lk. 3:7) 
 18. ?The axe is already laid at the root of the trees. " (Lk. 3:9) 
 19. "His winnowing fork is in His hand?." (Lk. 3:17) 
 20. ?The kingdom of God has come near to you.? (Lk. 10:9) 
 21. ?The kingdom of God has come near.? (Lk. 10:11) 
 22. ?What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." ?The scribes and the chief priests ?understood that He spoke this parable against them.? (Lk. 20:15-16,19) 
 23. ?These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.? (Lk. 2 1:22) 
 24. "This generation will not pass away until all things take place.? (Lk. 21:32) 
 25. "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'? (Lk. 23:28-30; Compare Rev. 6:14-17) 
 26. "We were hoping that He was the One who is about to redeem Israel.? (Lk. 24:21) 
 27. "I will come to you. ?In that Day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.' ?'Lord, what then has happened that You are about to disclose Yourself to us, and not to the world?'" (Jn. 14:18,20,22) 
 28. "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" (Jn. 21:22) 
 29. ?This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days? '? (Acts 2:16-17)


30. ?He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness?? (Acts 17:31) 
 31. ?There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.? (Acts 24:15) 
 32. ?As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come?" (Acts 24:25) 
 33. ?Not for [Abraham's] sake only was it written, that [faith] was reckoned to him [as righteousness], but for our sake also, to whom it is about to be reckoned.? (Rom. 4:23-24) 
 34. ?If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die.? (Rom. 8:13) 
 35. ?I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us.? (Rom. 8:18) 
 36. "It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand." (Rom. 13:11-12) 
 37. ?The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.? (Rom. 16:20) 
 38. ?The time has been shortened.? (I Cor. 7:29) 
 39. ?The form of this world is passing away.? (I Cor. 7:31)


40. ?Now these things ?were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.? (I Cor. 10:11) 
 41. ?We shall not all fall sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.? (I Cor. 15:51-52) 
 42. "Maranatha!" [The Lord comes!] (I Cor. 16:22) 
 43. "...not only in this age, but also in the one about to come.? (Eph. 1:21) 
 44. ?The Lord is near.? (Phil. 4:5) 
 45. "The gospel ?was proclaimed in all creation under heaven." (Col. 1:23; Compare Matt. 24:14; Rom. 10:18; 16:26; Col. 1:5-6; II Tim. 4:17; Rev. 14:6-7; cf. I Clement 5,7) 
 46. ??things which are a shadow of what is about to come.?(Col. 2:16-17) 
 47. ??we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord? ?We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds? ?You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief.? (I Thess. 4:15,17; 5:4) 
 48. ?May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.? (I Thess. 5:23) 
 49. ?It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.? (II Thess. 1:6-7) 
 50. ?Godliness ?holds promise for the present life and that which is about to come.? (I Tim. 4:8) 
 51. ?I charge you ?that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.? (I Tim. 6:14) 
 52. ?? storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.? (I Tim. 6:19) 
 53. ?In the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self? ?Avoid these men. For of these are those who enter into households and captivate weak women? ?These also oppose the truth? ?But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all?? (II Tim. 3:1-2,5-6,8-9) 
 54. ?I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead?? (II Tim. 4:1) 
 55. ?God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.?(Heb. 1:1-2) 
 56. ?Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?? (Heb. 1:14) 
 57. ?He did not subject to angels the wo rld about to come.? (Heb. 2:5) 
 58. ??and have tasted ?the powers of the age about to come.? (Heb. 6:5) 
 59. "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near a curse, and it's end is for burning.? (Heb. 6:7-8) 
 60. ?When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.? (Heb. 8:13) 
 61. ?The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way of the [heavenly] Holy Places has not yet been revealed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of r eformation.? (Heb. 9:8-10; Compare Gal. 4:19; Eph. 2:21-22; 3:17; 4:13) 
 62. ?But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come?? (Heb. 9:11) 
 63. ?Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin.? (Heb. 9:26) 
 64. ?For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things about to come?? (Heb. 10:1) 
 65. ??as you see the Day drawing near.? (Heb. 10:25) 
 66. ??the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries.? (Heb. 10:27) 
 67. ?For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.? (Heb. 10:37) 
 68. ?For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the one that is about to come.? (Heb. 13:14) 
 69. "Speak and so act, as those who are about to be judged by the law of liberty." (Jms. 2:12) 
 70. ?Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. ?It is in the las t days that you have stored up your treasure!? (Jms. 5:1,3) 
 71. ?Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.? (Jms. 5:7) 
 72. ?You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.?(Jms. 5:8) 
 73. ??salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.? (I Peter 1:6) 
 74. ?He ?has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.? (I Peter 1:20) 
 75. ?They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.? (I Peter 4:5) 
 76. ?The end of all things is at hand;therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.? (I Peter 4:7) 
 77. "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God.?(I Peter 4:17) 
 78. ??as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is about to be revealed.? (I Peter 5:1) 
 79. ?We have the prophetic word ?which you do w ell to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.? (II Peter 1:19) 
 80. ?Their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.? (II Peter 2:3) 
 81. ?In the last days mockers will come. ?For this they willingly are ignorant of?? (I Peter 3:3,5) 
 82. ?But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God.? (II Peter 3:10-12) 
 83. ?The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.? (I Jn. 2:8) 
 84. ?The world is passing away, and its desires.? (I Jn. 2:17) 
 85. ?It is the last hour.? (I Jn. 2:18) 
 86. ?Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.? (I Jn. 2:18; Compare Matt. 24:23-34) 
 87. ?This is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.? (I Jn. 4:3; Compare II Thess. 2:7) 
 88. ?For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. ?About these also Enoch ?prophesied, saying, 'Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly?'? (Jude 1:4,14-15) 
 89. ?But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, 'In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.' These are the ones who cause divisions?? (Jude 1:17-19) 
 90. ??to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place.? (Rev. 1:1) 
 91. ?The time is near.? (Rev. 1:3) 
 92. ?Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.? (Rev. 2:25) 
 93. ?I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world.? (Rev. 3:10) 
 94. ?I am coming quickly.? (Rev. 3:11) 
 95. ?And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.? (Rev. 12:5) 
 96. "And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." (Rev. 18:24; Compare Matt. 23:35-36; Lk. 11:50-51) 
 97. ??to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place.? (Rev. 22:6) 
 98. "Behold, I am coming quickly. " (Rev. 22:7) 
 99. "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10; Compare Dan. 8:26) 
 100. "Behold, I am coming quickly.? (Rev. 22:12) 
 101 "Yes, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:20)


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## hawglips

Sin was not introduced to the world by God.  The opportunity to sin was, however.  

Why did God include the opportunity to sin in his creation?  I think he hints at it in Genesis 3 after Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, with this statement, "...the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil...."


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## gemcgrew

hawglips said:


> Sin was not introduced to the world by God.  The opportunity to sin was, however.


Could you explain the difference between "God is the author of sin" and "God is the author of the opportunity to sin"?


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## Artfuldodger

hawglips said:


> Sin was not introduced to the world by God.  The opportunity to sin was, however.
> 
> Why did God include the opportunity to sin in his creation?  I think he hints at it in Genesis 3 after Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, with this statement, "...the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil...."



Who was "us?" How could "us"(whoever that was) know evil if there was only good? How can good even exist without evil?


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## hawglips

I believe the "us" was God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

I don't think knowledge of good can really exist without knowledge of evil.  That's why the opportunity to sin was introduced to Adam and Eve, in addition to the knowing good and evil reason.  Omniscience would by definition include knowledge of everything about good and evil.

I figure evil existed before the creation of this world - that it's probably always existed, just like good has always existed.  But as far as this world is concerned, it was introduced to mankind with the first transgression of partaking of the forbidden fruit.


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## Artfuldodger

hawglips said:


> I believe the "us" was God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
> 
> I don't think knowledge of good can really exist without knowledge of evil.  That's why the opportunity to sin was introduced to Adam and Eve, in addition to the knowing good and evil reason.  Omniscience would by definition include knowledge of everything about good and evil.
> 
> I figure evil existed before the creation of this world - that it's probably always existed, just like good has always existed.  But as far as this world is concerned, it was introduced to mankind with the first transgression of partaking of the forbidden fruit.



Would you consider what Satan did in the Garden, sin?

It has been mentioned that the "us" was God and angels. I've also heard it was God speaking in Old English such as the Queen often refers to herself as plural in speech.
I'm not sure God spoke Old English.


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## hawglips

Artfuldodger said:


> Would you consider what Satan did in the Garden, sin?



Since Satan isn't human, I don't think of it as sin.


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## hummerpoo

gemcgrew said:


> Could you explain the difference between "God is the author of sin" and "God is the author of the opportunity to sin"?



I would suggest that, while acknowledging that there a implications that must be understood, and accepted or rejected as appropriate, 

"God is the author of the opportunity to sin" recognizes God's omniscience and denies His omnipotence.

And "God is the author of sin" recognizes God's omniscience and His omnipotence.


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## Artfuldodger

In relation to God authoring sin, How does one "fall" into sin?
Why is Adam's first sin called the "fall of man?"
Is it fair to use the word fall? Then we have "falling away."

The fall of Adam was not by chance or accident. We know this because Christ had an eternal purpose. Why is it called "the fall?

Wouldn't the problem that sin created  have been solved by God electing Adam? If Adam had been elected then his sin would have never been sin. He could have been created and regenerated before his sinned.


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> In relation to God authoring sin, How does one "fall" into sin?
> Why is Adam's first sin called the "fall of man?"
> Is it fair to use the word fall? Then we have "falling away."



Is there "really" a question here?


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## Artfuldodger

Was Adam's heart hardened or did God purposely withhold his grace from Adam? 
Was Adam totally depraved? Was he made a vessel of dishonor?


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## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Is there "really" a question here?



I have this preconceived indoctrination of falling into sin as something man must do. If God was the author of sin, I would call it pushing into sin.
But then we are back to the Creator and his creation and as to why we use words to describe creation such as allowing, making, pushing, falling, author of the opportunity, etc. 
Using words like this appear to indicate freewill yet God used words like this in his scripture. We were "made" in the image of God therefore we love, hate, fear, anger, are jealous, mercy, restraint, compassion, faith, etc.
God allowed Satan to tempt Job. Jesus wept. They praised God. They dishonored God.
They were without excuse.


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## hobbs27

God did not author sin. Adam did. The bible is clear sin entered the world through one man...Adam.

Most people say they sin because the devil made em it. That's a lie, and so is it a lie if you say God made you do it. It's time we take some personal responsibility for our own actions....because the flesh is weak.


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## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> God did not author sin. Adam did. The bible is clear sin entered the world through one man...Adam.


You only postpone your inconsistency.

"In the beginning God created" would include Adam.


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Was Adam's heart hardened or did God purposely withhold his grace from Adam?
> Was Adam totally depraved? Was he made a vessel of dishonor?



Everything God does is done purposely.



Artfuldodger said:


> I have this preconceived indoctrination of falling into sin as something man must do.



You probably characterized that correctly.



> If God was the author of sin, I would call it pushing into sin.



And I would call that a blasphemous accusation.



> But then we are back to the Creator and his creation and as to why we use words to describe creation such as allowing, making, pushing, falling, author of the opportunity, etc.
> Using words like this appear to indicate freewill yet God used words like this in his scripture.



The words God uses are imperative; that does not imply indicative.



> We were "made" in the image of God therefore we love, hate, fear, anger, are jealous, mercy, restraint, compassion, faith, etc.
> God allowed Satan to tempt Job. Jesus wept. They praised God. They dishonored God.
> They were without excuse.



The range of this post is wide enough.


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## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> You only postpone your inconsistency.
> 
> "In the beginning God created" would include Adam.


Yes. In the beginning God created Adam and saw he was good. Then Adam sinned, and brought sin into the world. Adam created sin, and sin and death reigned from Adam till Moses..


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## gordon 2

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/a-little-knowledge-is-a-dangerous-thing.html



A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

more like this...
...other
Proverbs
Meaning

A small amount of knowledge can mislead people into thinking that they are more expert than they really are.

Origin

'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing' and 'a little learning is a dangerous thing' have been used synonymously since the 18th century.

Alexander Pope - A little knowledge is a dangerous thingThe version 'a little learning' is widely attributed to Alexander Pope (1688 - 1744). It is found in An Essay on Criticism, 1709, and I can find no earlier example of the expression in print:

A little learning is a dangerous thing; 
drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: 
there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, 
and drinking largely sobers us again.

The similarity of the two phrases is demonstrated by what appears to be an impromptu coining of 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing' in a piece in The monthly miscellany; or Gentleman and Lady's Complete Magazine, Vol II, 1774, in which the writer misquoted Pope:

Mr. Pope says, very truly, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

Both Pope's original verse and the misquotation of it were predated by an anonymous author, signing himself 'A B', in the collection of letters published in 1698 as The mystery of phanaticism:

"Twas well observed by my Lord Bacon, That a little knowledge is apt to puff up, and make men giddy, but a greater share of it will set them right, and bring them to low and humble thoughts of themselves.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thingAgain, there is a degree of misquotation here; what 'my Lord Bacon', the English politician and philosopher Francis Bacon, Viscount St Alban, actually said, in The Essays: Of Atheism, 1601, was:

"A little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion."

So, who coined the phrase? It appears to have been a group effort. Bacon can be credited with the idea, Pope with the 'learning' version and the mysterious 'A B' with the 'knowledge' version.


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## marketgunner

hobbs27 said:


> To reconsider the first century as the time of Christ return would be to make a liar of Christ. He said He would return within that generation.. He also said
> 
> Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
> 
> Rev.1:1 The things in Revelation "must" shortly come to pass.
> The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
> 
> Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
> 
> Yes every eye shall see Him...but They also which pierced Him....You think they are still alive today to witness His return?
> Actually Rev 1:7 is from Zechariah 12:10. John also references it at the crucifixion in John 19:37, then here in Revelation 1:7...see many saw Him at the cross and fulfilled a portion of this Zechariah prophecy, but when He returned every eye saw Him....Remember what He told Caiaphas? Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
> 
> Caiaphas got the promise to see His return, and Peter was told he would die before Christ's return but John wouldn't... John lived past 70 ad, Peter did not .
> 
> John 21: 20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
> 
> 21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
> 
> 22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
> 
> 23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
> 
> 
> In case that isn't enough here's a 101 more reasons I believe Christ came back in the first century.. He said so.
> 1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)
> 
> 
> 2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)
> 
> 
> 3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)
> 
> 
> 4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)
> 5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)
> 6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)
> 7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)
> 8. "....the age about to come." (Matt. 12:32)
> 9. "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27)
> 10. "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)
> 
> 
> 11. "'When the owner of the vineyard com es, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)
> 12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)
> 13. "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)
> 14. "The kingdom of God is at hand." (Mk. 1:15)
> 15. "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. ....They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them." (Mk. 12:9,12)
> 16. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.? (Mk. 13:30)
> 17. ?Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?? (Lk. 3:7)
> 18. ?The axe is already laid at the root of the trees. " (Lk. 3:9)
> 19. "His winnowing fork is in His hand?." (Lk. 3:17)
> 20. ?The kingdom of God has come near to you.? (Lk. 10:9)
> 21. ?The kingdom of God has come near.? (Lk. 10:11)
> 22. ?What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." ?The scribes and the chief priests ?understood that He spoke this parable against them.? (Lk. 20:15-16,19)
> 23. ?These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.? (Lk. 2 1:22)
> 24. "This generation will not pass away until all things take place.? (Lk. 21:32)
> 25. "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'? (Lk. 23:28-30; Compare Rev. 6:14-17)
> 26. "We were hoping that He was the One who is about to redeem Israel.? (Lk. 24:21)
> 27. "I will come to you. ?In that Day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.' ?'Lord, what then has happened that You are about to disclose Yourself to us, and not to the world?'" (Jn. 14:18,20,22)
> 28. "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" (Jn. 21:22)
> 29. ?This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days? '? (Acts 2:16-17)
> 
> 
> 30. ?He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness?? (Acts 17:31)
> 31. ?There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.? (Acts 24:15)
> 32. ?As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come?" (Acts 24:25)
> 33. ?Not for [Abraham's] sake only was it written, that [faith] was reckoned to him [as righteousness], but for our sake also, to whom it is about to be reckoned.? (Rom. 4:23-24)
> 34. ?If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die.? (Rom. 8:13)
> 35. ?I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us.? (Rom. 8:18)
> 36. "It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand." (Rom. 13:11-12)
> 37. ?The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.? (Rom. 16:20)
> 38. ?The time has been shortened.? (I Cor. 7:29)
> 39. ?The form of this world is passing away.? (I Cor. 7:31)
> 
> 
> 40. ?Now these things ?were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.? (I Cor. 10:11)
> 41. ?We shall not all fall sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.? (I Cor. 15:51-52)
> 42. "Maranatha!" [The Lord comes!] (I Cor. 16:22)
> 43. "...not only in this age, but also in the one about to come.? (Eph. 1:21)
> 44. ?The Lord is near.? (Phil. 4:5)
> 45. "The gospel ?was proclaimed in all creation under heaven." (Col. 1:23; Compare Matt. 24:14; Rom. 10:18; 16:26; Col. 1:5-6; II Tim. 4:17; Rev. 14:6-7; cf. I Clement 5,7)
> 46. ??things which are a shadow of what is about to come.?(Col. 2:16-17)
> 47. ??we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord? ?We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds? ?You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief.? (I Thess. 4:15,17; 5:4)
> 48. ?May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.? (I Thess. 5:23)
> 49. ?It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.? (II Thess. 1:6-7)
> 50. ?Godliness ?holds promise for the present life and that which is about to come.? (I Tim. 4:8)
> 51. ?I charge you ?that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.? (I Tim. 6:14)
> 52. ?? storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.? (I Tim. 6:19)
> 53. ?In the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self? ?Avoid these men. For of these are those who enter into households and captivate weak women? ?These also oppose the truth? ?But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all?? (II Tim. 3:1-2,5-6,8-9)
> 54. ?I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead?? (II Tim. 4:1)
> 55. ?God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.?(Heb. 1:1-2)
> 56. ?Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?? (Heb. 1:14)
> 57. ?He did not subject to angels the wo rld about to come.? (Heb. 2:5)
> 58. ??and have tasted ?the powers of the age about to come.? (Heb. 6:5)
> 59. "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near a curse, and it's end is for burning.? (Heb. 6:7-8)
> 60. ?When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.? (Heb. 8:13)
> 61. ?The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way of the [heavenly] Holy Places has not yet been revealed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of r eformation.? (Heb. 9:8-10; Compare Gal. 4:19; Eph. 2:21-22; 3:17; 4:13)
> 62. ?But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come?? (Heb. 9:11)
> 63. ?Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin.? (Heb. 9:26)
> 64. ?For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things about to come?? (Heb. 10:1)
> 65. ??as you see the Day drawing near.? (Heb. 10:25)
> 66. ??the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries.? (Heb. 10:27)
> 67. ?For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.? (Heb. 10:37)
> 68. ?For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the one that is about to come.? (Heb. 13:14)
> 69. "Speak and so act, as those who are about to be judged by the law of liberty." (Jms. 2:12)
> 70. ?Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. ?It is in the las t days that you have stored up your treasure!? (Jms. 5:1,3)
> 71. ?Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.? (Jms. 5:7)
> 72. ?You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.?(Jms. 5:8)
> 73. ??salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.? (I Peter 1:6)
> 74. ?He ?has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.? (I Peter 1:20)
> 75. ?They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.? (I Peter 4:5)
> 76. ?The end of all things is at hand;therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.? (I Peter 4:7)
> 77. "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God.?(I Peter 4:17)
> 78. ??as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is about to be revealed.? (I Peter 5:1)
> 79. ?We have the prophetic word ?which you do w ell to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.? (II Peter 1:19)
> 80. ?Their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.? (II Peter 2:3)
> 81. ?In the last days mockers will come. ?For this they willingly are ignorant of?? (I Peter 3:3,5)
> 82. ?But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God.? (II Peter 3:10-12)
> 83. ?The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.? (I Jn. 2:8)
> 84. ?The world is passing away, and its desires.? (I Jn. 2:17)
> 85. ?It is the last hour.? (I Jn. 2:18)
> 86. ?Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.? (I Jn. 2:18; Compare Matt. 24:23-34)
> 87. ?This is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.? (I Jn. 4:3; Compare II Thess. 2:7)
> 88. ?For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. ?About these also Enoch ?prophesied, saying, 'Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly?'? (Jude 1:4,14-15)
> 89. ?But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, 'In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.' These are the ones who cause divisions?? (Jude 1:17-19)
> 90. ??to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place.? (Rev. 1:1)
> 91. ?The time is near.? (Rev. 1:3)
> 92. ?Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.? (Rev. 2:25)
> 93. ?I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world.? (Rev. 3:10)
> 94. ?I am coming quickly.? (Rev. 3:11)
> 95. ?And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.? (Rev. 12:5)
> 96. "And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." (Rev. 18:24; Compare Matt. 23:35-36; Lk. 11:50-51)
> 97. ??to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place.? (Rev. 22:6)
> 98. "Behold, I am coming quickly. " (Rev. 22:7)
> 99. "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10; Compare Dan. 8:26)
> 100. "Behold, I am coming quickly.? (Rev. 22:12)
> 101 "Yes, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:20)



but the lion hasn't laid down with the lamb


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## marketgunner

hawglips said:


> Since Satan isn't human, I don't think of it as sin.



sin is spiritual. It is disobedience to God.

2Pe 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


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## marketgunner

Artfuldodger said:


> Is it possible that the spirit I'll call satan was dwelling within the scribes and Pharisees?



Satan influences people but evil spirits do as well.

When Jesus said Ye are of your Father the devil, he also said to them "ye are gods"  , He was talking to the same people.


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## marketgunner

hobbs27 said:


> Marketgunner and Art, no matter how anyone tries to twist this story in Rev 12. We have the dragon persecuting Christ and Christians from Christ's birth and throughout His ministry, then he is cast out of heaven and upon that happening Christ Kingdom is proclaimed and Salvation is given to man.
> 
> In no way can those events by their action be before a Satan tempted eve in the garden...matter of fact, it was because Adam was deceived by eve through Satan that Christ had to come here.



redemption was planned from the moment they were kicked out of Heaven.

Satan did not persecute Christ in Heaven. "Christ is a Human"  Satan persecuted the Woman and the offspring who was not in Heaven but visible from Heaven


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## marketgunner

hobbs27 said:


> Yes. In the beginning God created Adam and saw he was good. Then Adam sinned, and brought sin into the world. Adam created sin, and sin and death reigned from Adam till Moses..



Adam wasn't morally "good" but "good" according to God's purpose of redemption.

Adam brought sin into the physical world as sin was already in the spiritual world.  Human are spiritual and physical beings. Satan is only spiritual. 

Adam certainly didn't create sin.  He sinned. We are not sinners because of Adam. We are sinners on our own and cannot blame Adam.


Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


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## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Everything God does is done purposely.
> 
> And I would call that a blasphemous accusation.



Yet others say  it's blasphemous to speak of God as the author of sin. 

Why is God authoring man to fall into sin different from pushing man into sin? If man is God's creation these actual words mean nothing as we discussed earlier in this discussion about God making someone do something. God doesn't need to make, push, or any other word to describe his creation. God created everything. After  that it just "happens." Sin happens
Sin happens because it was part of God's plan as was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world in God's Word.

God didn't need to harden Pharaoh's heart, choose Abraham, love Jacob, send Jesus, blind the Jews, allow Satan to tempt, etc. It was all a part of God's Word before it happened. When it happened, it just happened.


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## Artfuldodger

marketgunner said:


> but the lion hasn't laid down with the lamb



"There are no biblical passages that refer to the lamb and the lion lying down together. That is a very commonly misquoted statement." 

Is this true?


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## marketgunner

how about a wolf

Isa 65:25
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.


Isa 11:6
And a wolf hath sojourned with a lamb, And a leopard with a kid doth lie down, And calf, and young lion, and fatling are together, And a little youth is leader over them.


Has this happened?


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## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> but the lion hasn't laid down with the lamb



Dang... Guess Jesus just got it wrong, and you're right.


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## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> how about a wolf
> 
> Isa 65:25
> The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
> 
> 
> Isa 11:6
> And a wolf hath sojourned with a lamb, And a leopard with a kid doth lie down, And calf, and young lion, and fatling are together, And a little youth is leader over them.
> 
> 
> Has this happened?



yes.


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## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> how about a wolf
> 
> Isa 65:25
> The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
> 
> 
> Isa 11:6
> And a wolf hath sojourned with a lamb, And a leopard with a kid doth lie down, And calf, and young lion, and fatling are together, And a little youth is leader over them.
> 
> 
> Has this happened?



Here ya go.
In what sense is the wolf now dwelling with the lamb (Isaiah 11:6), the cow and the bear grazing together (verse 7), the nursing child playing over the hole of the cobra (verse 8), and the earth full of the knowledge of the Lord (verse 9)? Good question—let’s ask the apostle Paul. He quoted the next verse as being fulfilled in his own lifetime: “IN THAT DAY the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of Him shall the nations inquire, and His resting place shall be glorious” (Isaiah 11:10). Romans 15:12, where Paul cites this verse, reads this way: “The root of Jesse will come, even He who arises to rule the Gentiles, in Him will the Gentiles hope” (Romans 15:12).

The context of both Isaiah 11 and Romans 15 suggests a bringing together in Christ the remnant of God’s people from among both the Jews and the Gentiles. Isaiah uses figurative language; Paul in Romans is more straightforward. Why not? The “mystery of God” spoken of by the prophets had been revealed and was about to be fulfilled in Paul’s day (compare Ephesians 3:6 with Revelation 10:7).

“This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel” (Eph. 3:6). There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ Jesus (Romans 10:12-13; Galatians 3:28, 5:6, 6:15-16); “the dividing wall of hostility” has been broken down (Eph. 2:14).

The wolf (Gentiles), so to speak, now dwells safely with the lamb (Jews), i.e. among those who belong to Christ. The Gentile nations which were deceived and dwelling “far off” (Ephesians 2:11-22; Romans 9:22-26) prior to Christ’s work on the cross are now brought near (so that without distinction “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved”; Romans 10:12-13).

http://kloposmasm.com/2012/01/29/romans-15-shows-that-isaiah-11-is-fulfilled/


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## marketgunner

The lion will eat straw like an ox.

How does that fit your illustration?


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## Artfuldodger

I imagine there is a lot of symbolism in all of that lion, lamb, and wolf passages. I can't say if it has or hasn't happened.

Some say Jesus is the Lion and Lamb in those passages. It does all appear to point to predestination.


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## marketgunner

Do you think you are in the 1000yr reign?


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## Artfuldodger

marketgunner said:


> Do you think you are in the 1000yr reign?



I'm not sure if that is a part of my destiny.
Has the 1000 year reign been predestined and a part of God's prophesy?

I have trouble understanding apocalyptic language;

"The days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and each branch ten thousand twigs, and each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand clusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed and will give five and twenty metretes of wine."

The Holy Spirit hasn't revealed any of this to me. I'm pretty sure I'm still on the milk diet plan.


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## marketgunner

what is that verses reference?


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## Artfuldodger

marketgunner said:


> what is that verses reference?



I don't know. I was reading this from Isaiah 11:11 further into the lion, wolf, etc.

Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea.

It appears to be a future event from today 8-19-15.
I don't see this a being the Church. I don't see it as already happening. I do see it as a predestined event. I'm pretty sure God knows in his Word when it will happen. Better yet the day or time has already been determined at creation. God isn't waiting on us in order to finish his story/plan.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Isaiah 11:1
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

Matthew 1:1
This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:

Acts 13:23
"From this man's descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.

Revelation 5:5
Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."

Does anyone see any predestination? Did God cause it or is he just using foreknowledge to see it?


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Yet others say  it's blasphemous to speak of God as the author of sin. .



Yes, and like you allude to below, a substantial portion of the conflict is due to different understanding of terms; I don’t know how well we are understanding one another.  My statement is directed to the equivalent of “God is a bully”.  I noted that your statement was a contingency.



> Why is God authoring man to fall into sin different from pushing man into sin?



You changed the statement; natural man “falling” into sin is an impossibility; he is a sinner, and he doesn’t know it.  Sin in the life of regenerated man is best started with Rm. 7 (it took me a looong time, but it's a lot easier than I made it), Habakkuk will help (not the first read), Num. 22:20-35 (emphasis on 34) is helpful.  I don’t know if Paul, Habakkuk, or Balaam were regenerate, but what is taught about God in the three passages is for the regenerate.



> If man is God's creation these actual words mean nothing as we discussed earlier in this discussion about God making someone do something. God doesn't need to make, push, or any other word to describe his creation. God created everything.



I remember saying, in effect, I don’t like this issue because it always seems to end up in semantics.  That’s the result of the words being “hot buttons” to so many.  If you know the movie Hancock, the protagonist couldn’t get past the word “psycho” (censored version).



> After  that it just "happens." Sin happens
> Sin happens because it was part of God's plan as was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world in God's Word.
> 
> God didn't need to harden Pharaoh's heart, choose Abraham, love Jacob, send Jesus, blind the Jews, allow Satan to tempt, etc. It was all a part of God's Word before it happened. When it happened, it just happened.



Nothing just happens when God has His hand on it, and, of coarse, He does.

Consider that, when things happen within God’s creation, which are against His command (find examples all over scripture), God is not unwilling for those things to happen.  Being Holy, all that He does is good; being omniscient, He knows the results of all things; being omnipotent, His good result is insured.  Knowing this by faith, His people desire only His will, to His glory.

Habakkuk started out complaining to God that He wasn’t doing things correctly or quickly enough to make him comfortable with the world, (kinda self-centered, huh).
After God explained His sovereignty he decided:
Hab. 3
17. Though the fig tree should not blossom
And there be no fruit on the vines,
Though the yield of the olive should fail
And the fields produce no food,
Though the flock should be cut off from the fold
And there be no cattle in the stalls,
18.  Yet I will exult in the LORD,
I will rejoice in the God of my salvation.
19. The Lord GOD is my strength,
And He has made my feet like hinds’ feet,
And makes me walk on my high places.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Yes, and like you allude to below, a substantial portion of the conflict is due to different understanding of terms; I don’t know how well we are understanding one another.  My statement is directed to the equivalent of “God is a bully”.  I noted that your statement was a contingency.
> 
> You changed the statement; natural man “falling” into sin is an impossibility; he is a sinner, and he doesn’t know it.  Sin in the life of regenerated man is best started with Rm. 7 (it took me a looong time, but it's a lot easier than I made it), Habakkuk will help (not the first read), Num. 22:20-35 (emphasis on 34) is helpful.  I don’t know if Paul, Habakkuk, or Balaam were regenerate, but what is taught about God in the three passages is for the regenerate.
> 
> I remember saying, in effect, I don’t like this issue because it always seems to end up in semantics.  That’s the result of the words being “hot buttons” to so many.  If you know the movie Hancock, the protagonist couldn’t get past the word “psycho” (censored version).
> 
> Nothing just happens when God has His hand on it, and, of coarse, He does.
> 
> Consider that, when things happen within God’s creation, which are against His command (find examples all over scripture), God is not unwilling for those things to happen.  Being Holy, all that He does is good; being omniscient, He knows the results of all things; being omnipotent, His good result is insured.  Knowing this by faith, His people desire only His will, to His glory.
> 
> Habakkuk started out complaining to God that He wasn’t doing things correctly or quickly enough to make him comfortable with the world, (kinda self-centered, huh).
> After God explained His sovereignty he decided:
> Hab. 3
> 17. Though the fig tree should not blossom
> And there be no fruit on the vines,
> Though the yield of the olive should fail
> And the fields produce no food,
> Though the flock should be cut off from the fold
> And there be no cattle in the stalls,
> 18.  Yet I will exult in the LORD,
> I will rejoice in the God of my salvation.
> 19. The Lord GOD is my strength,
> And He has made my feet like hinds’ feet,
> And makes me walk on my high places.



I didn't mean to infer that God is a bully. That would imply we have free will. When you or Gem imply God is the author of sin many see this as God making or causing Adam to sin. If God created Adam then he doesn't actually make or allow Adam to do anything. God can't be a bully.
Pushing, making, allowing, causing, etc. turn out to be just words.

If natural man can't fall into sin, why is Adam's sin called "the fall?" That is my original question. Pushing isn't the correct word either but why is falling?

I understand things don't "just" happen. I'll change it to things "happen." Happen according to God's plan. A plan that even God himself doesn't have the free will to change.

That's easy for Habakkuk to say, he was elected. He can see the temporary trials of his life and look into the future at his salvation.

I'm trying to be as Habakkuk was myself but sometimes it's really hard. I understand the concept, I'm just not there yet.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> A plan that even God himself doesn't have the free will to change.


Yours is a meaningless statement. Although only God possesses free will, the need to change never exist.
Think perfection.


----------



## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> The lion will eat straw like an ox.
> 
> How does that fit your illustration?



Perfect peace among the Kingdom Heirs. We are no longer separated by national border nor race but are brought together in peace through a single Kingdom. The Kingdom of God.

An example of this can be found here in this forum: http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=849397


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## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> Do you think you are in the 1000yr reign?



I don't , It's over.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Yours is a meaningless statement. Although only God possesses free will, the need to change never exist.
> Think perfection.



Although God possesses free will, he gave up his ability to ever use it when he predestined his one and only plan. He can't change what I do today any more than he can change who he elected at the foundation of the world.
It is only a meaningless statement in that God's plan is perfect.

Satan on the other hand creating something or man creating something such as sin might be the meaningless statement.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> I didn't mean to infer that God is a bully. That would imply we have free will. When you or Gem imply God is the author of sin many see this as God making or causing Adam to sin. If God created Adam then he doesn't actually make or allow Adam to do anything. God can't be a bully.
> Pushing, making, allowing, causing, etc. turn out to be just words.



I sat here staring at your words, “doesn’t actually make(force) or allow”.  So what’s wrong with “author”?  Is it perhaps that men just can’t find any other power that scripture allows them.  Maybe they don’t like being given the responsibility for sin, so they claim it.  "You can’t fire me, I quite."  That seems to be the right idea; after all, only God has the power of salvation, “but by-golly I have to allow You, I can stop You” is the common claim.

I kinda like what I said the other day, the phase rings true ─ “necessity of consequence”(it’s not mine, I read it somewhere) .  God’s will creates/produces the necessary consequence.



> If natural man can't fall into sin, why is Adam's sin called "the fall?" That is my original question. Pushing isn't the correct word either but why is falling?



First, is the phrase in scripture?
Second, when you use it, what do you mean?



> I understand things don't "just" happen. I'll change it to things "happen." Happen according to God's plan. A plan that even God himself doesn't have the free will to change.



I’ll go with Gem.
Your #138 ─ Can God create a weight He can’t lift?



> That's easy for Habakkuk to say, he was elected. He can see the temporary trials of his life and look into the future at his salvation.



Read the beginning.



> I'm trying to be as Habakkuk was myself but sometimes it's really hard. I understand the concept, I'm just not there yet.



That’s why I recommended his book, it certainly helps me.


----------



## marketgunner

gemcgrew said:


> Yours is a meaningless statement. Although only God possesses free will, the need to change never exist.
> Think perfection.



no, God allows free choices, just it comes with the consequences of the choices. We also have the choice to obey Him

If you don't have free  will who made you post on this forum?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Are we to believe that God our Creator placed the fate of all mankind on the actions of one man? Why would he do this? Especially the first man?
This is what we are saying in stating that Adam had a choice. In stating this we are saying that Jesus might not have been needed.
In fact the whole Bible might have been written very differently if Adam had not sinned. The flood wouldn't have been needed. Abraham wouldn't have been chosen. We actually wouldn't even be Christians. We would be called something completely different.

Now let's suppose Adam had free will and fell. Is this where man's free will ended and God started all of the predestined events in the Bible? Is this when God allowed the Flood story to mirror the Ark that would come later? The Jews would be lead into captivity?
Has one ever looked at how things of the Old Testament were types, symbols, or mirrors of future events? Did these events happen randomly and then God was able to use them for his future prophesy? Things like Diasporas and Exiles? Things related to Israel that now mean Church? 
How is prophesy and free will even compatible? If Adam had a choice to not sin then Jesus had a choice to not die for those sins. Mary had a choice to not be the virgin Mary. Saul had choice to not become Paul. 
Pharaoh had a choice to not be hardened. The Jews had a choice to not be blinded. Abraham could have chose Ishmael.
Isaac could have chose Esau.
While reading the Bible, who in it got a choice to make God's plan come true and who didn't?


----------



## marketgunner

One doesn't hinder an omnipotent God's plans.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Are we to believe that God our Creator placed the fate of all mankind on the actions of one man? Why would he do this? Especially the first man?
> This is what we are saying in stating that Adam had a choice. In stating this we are saying that Jesus might not have been needed.
> In fact the whole Bible might have been written very differently if Adam had not sinned. The flood wouldn't have been needed. Abraham wouldn't have been chosen. We actually wouldn't even be Christians. We would be called something completely different.
> 
> Now let's suppose Adam had free will and fell. Is this where man's free will ended and God started all of the predestined events in the Bible? Is this when God allowed the Flood story to mirror the Ark that would come later? The Jews would be lead into captivity?
> Has one ever looked at how things of the Old Testament were types, symbols, or mirrors of future events? Did these events happen randomly and then God was able to use them for his future prophesy? Things like Diasporas and Exiles? Things related to Israel that now mean Church?
> How is prophesy and free will even compatible? If Adam had a choice to not sin then Jesus had a choice to not die for those sins. Mary had a choice to not be the virgin Mary. Saul had choice to not become Paul.
> Pharaoh had a choice to not be hardened. The Jews had a choice to not be blinded. Abraham could have chose Ishmael.
> Isaac could have chose Esau.
> While reading the Bible, who in it got a choice to make God's plan come true and who didn't?



How could Gods anger be kindled in someone's decision, say Jonah for instance, if He was in total control of that persons thoughts? I think God knew Jonah was going to resist, and God knew He was going to get Jonah to preach to those dogs in Ninevah, and knew what it was going to take to get him to do it. But God didn't make him sin by disobeying God! It was Jonah's choice.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> How could Gods anger be kindled in someone's decision, say Jonah for instance, if He was in total control of that persons thoughts? I think God knew Jonah was going to resist, and God knew He was going to get Jonah to preach to those dogs in Ninevah, and knew what it was going to take to get him to do it. But God didn't make him sin by disobeying God! It was Jonah's choice.



If God knew Jonah would resist, why did he get angry? If God knew Jonah would resist, how could Jonah not resist?

"But the Lord sent out a great wind on the sea, and there was a mighty tempest on the sea, so that the ship was about to be broken up."

You reckon God knew beforehand that Jonah would resist and that he would send the storm? 
Did God cause the storm or did he allow the storm? Maybe God authored the opportunity for the storm to happen..


----------



## Artfuldodger

Did Jonah ever make it to Ninevah or did  God go to plan B?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Did Jonah ever make it to Ninevah or did  God go to plan B?



Oh, he went. He didn't like it, but he went.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> If God knew Jonah would resist, why did he get angry? If God knew Jonah would resist, how could Jonah not resist?
> 
> "But the Lord sent out a great wind on the sea, and there was a mighty tempest on the sea, so that the ship was about to be broken up."
> 
> You reckon God knew beforehand that Jonah would resist and that he would send the storm?
> Did God cause the storm or did he allow the storm? Maybe God authored the opportunity for the storm to happen..



God is going to get you from point A to point B no matter what.It's not a hard thing for Him.We can take the path of obedience or we can take the path of chastening,as was shown in Jonah's case.There are rewards for obedience and there are consequences of disobedience.
There is a "rest" here on earth that He says we can enter into if we trust and obey in faith.God allows us choices,but don't be fooled into thinking His plan will be or has been foiled.God is not on our level.Nothing is too hard for Him.He is the greatest multitasker there ever was.


----------



## Artfuldodger

What if Adam chose not to sin or God had previously elected Adam?

We wouldn't have needed Jesus. He could have came as an ambassador. We would all be naked.
We wouldn't know about good and evil. We wouldn't be like "them."

If Adam had been of the "elect" would everyone else after Adam?


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> God is going to get you from point A to point B no matter what.It's not a hard thing for Him.We can take the path of obedience or we can take the path of chastening,as was shown in Jonah's case.There are rewards for obedience and there are consequences of disobedience.
> There is a "rest" here on earth that He says we can enter into if we trust and obey in faith.God allows us choices,but don't be fooled into thinking His plan will be or has been foiled.God is not on our level.Nothing is too hard for Him.He is the greatest multitasker there ever was.



Election plus free will for extras?


----------



## marketgunner

He was condemned already.  

Humanity is part of the solution, not the problem.

Humanism has warped your thinking.


----------



## Artfuldodger

marketgunner said:


> He was condemned already.
> 
> Humanity is part of the solution, not the problem.
> 
> Humanism has warped your thinking.



He was condemned before his creation? Oh yeah his spirit had previously sinned.

Why does the Bible make it out to be about an "event?"
Event being the eating of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Election plus free will for extras?



We have no free will concerning our election.That choice was made before the foundation of the world by God.We as His creation cannot say to Him "why hast thou formed me thus?"

But,as the elect,upon being regenerated,we are given a new nature that is contrary to our old nature.We still war within ourselves,because the old nature(flesh)is against our new (spiritual) nature.As Paul said "so that we cannot do the things that we would".

It's a constant struggle that we must endure that has rewards and consequences.(reap what you sow)


----------



## hobbs27

I wonder why God is forcing some of us to choose free will?


----------



## Artfuldodger

I can't see God giving Adam a choice knowing what the consequences would be. Especially if he had foreknowledge. Free will was not an advantage of mankind. If God placed the fate of every man in the hands of Adam, knowing how weak humans were.
I'm not even God but I can see where that wasn't gonna go very good. I would have to a had a back-up plan also.

Now if God placed sinning spirits into a new creation, I really can't see where Adam had any other choice than to not sin. He was already condemned as he had a sinning spirit.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> We have no free will concerning our election.That choice was made before the foundation of the world by God.We as His creation cannot say to Him "why hast thou formed me thus?"
> 
> But,as the elect,upon being regenerated,we are given a new nature that is contrary to our old nature.We still war within ourselves,because the old nature(flesh)is against our new (spiritual) nature.As Paul said "so that we cannot do the things that we would".
> 
> It's a constant struggle that we must endure that has rewards and consequences.(reap what you sow)



I use to believe we had free will until regeneration and then the Holy Spirit lead us in the right direction. 
Are you are saying we have no free will before regeneration and then acquire it after regeneration?

I can see a totally depraved person having no free will to seek God but after regeneration gaining the free will to show or not show obedience. The reason I thought a regenerated person lost his free will was because he can't lose his salvation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I wonder why God is forcing some of us to choose free will?



Maybe it's just a perception. You don't ever read the Bible and see all of the predestiny it contains? The prophesy, types, symbols, and shadows? 
Did these events happen at random and then God was able to use them for types, symbols, and shadows?


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you saying we have no free will before regeneration and then acquire it after regeneration?



Before we were regenerated(quickened-made alive spiritually),we were dead spiritually and had no ability or desire to come to God.We still made choices,good and bad,just not to come to God because the Father must draw him that comes(John6:44)"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."


----------



## Artfuldodger

Isn't there more security in knowing that God is in total control instead of believing that we are? 
Isn't it comforting to know that Jonah still went to Ninevah?
Isn't it comforting to know that our salvation is in God's hands and that we don't have any part in saving ourselves?


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Before we were regenerated(quickened-made alive spiritually),we were dead spiritually and had no ability or desire to come to God.We still made choices,good and bad,just not to come to God because the Father must draw him that comes(John6:44)"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."



So you see man having free will in every respect of his life other than election which happened at the foundation of the world? 
Does God change his plan according to our choices to make his will come about?


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Isn't there more security in knowing that God is in total control instead of believing that we are?
> Isn't it comforting to know that Jonah still went to Ninevah?
> Isn't it comforting to know that our salvation is in God's hands and that we don't have any part in saving ourselves?



YES
YES
and ABSOLUTELY YES


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> So you see man having free will in every respect of his life other than election which happened at the foundation of the world?
> Does God change his plan according to our choices to make his will come about?



God's plan includes our choices.
He is the "I AM".He knows the beginning from the end.Nothing surprises Him.He isn't existing in time,like we are.He's eternal.He lives in a constant state of the present.

Even though our choices are being lived out in time,they are all in the present to Him.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe it's just a perception. You don't ever read the Bible and see all of the predestiny it contains? The prophesy, types, symbols, and shadows?
> Did these events happen at random and then God was able to use them for types, symbols, and shadows?


The only predestined people I read of in the bible are people in that 40 year time of Jesus ministry to 70 ad.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> God's plan includes our choices.
> He is the "I AM".He knows the beginning from the end.Nothing surprises Him.He isn't existing in time,like we are.He's eternal.He lives in a constant state of the present.
> 
> Even though our choices are being lived out in time,they are all in the present to Him.



In other words he used his foreknowledge to see our choices and adapted his plan to our foreseen choices?
The actual choices were ours but God worked around them to achieve his plan.
The example given was Jonah going to Ninevah. God used his foreknowledge and based his plan on knowing Jonah would resist. He therefore based his plan on knowing Jonah would resist using his free will choice, and predestined the storm?

Why does this work for everything but salvation? Why didn't God use his foreknowledge to see who would make a choice to choose Jesus?


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Why didn't God use his foreknowledge to see who would make a choice to choose Jesus?



Because then it would be dependant upon something we did(works),instead of being all of grace....lest any man should boast.(2Tim.1:9-10)

God gets ALL the glory.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> The only predestined people I read of in the bible are people in that 40 year time of Jesus ministry to 70 ad.



So what you are saying is God only predestined a 40 year timeline of the world's history?
Was Adam not predestined? Seth? Abraham? Isaac? Jacob?
David? Mary? Jesus?
Did the Jews have a choice or were they blinded? Given this was in the 40 year timeline  of no free will.

The flood and ark? It just happened and then God was able to use it to show us the Ark as Jesus for salvation? 
Was 70 AD the predestined time of Christ's return?

I wonder if God predestined Jesus to be physically dead for three days?


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Because then it would be dependant upon something we did(works),instead of being all of grace....lest any man should boast.(2Tim.1:9-10)
> 
> God gets ALL the glory.



Choosing is a works in regards to salvation but not in regards to obedience? In other words we get choices on how we worship God after he chooses us?
These after regeneration choices are used to warrant rewards. 
Why aren't these rewards viewed as God being a respecter of men? If salvation isn't based on works because God isn't a respecter of man, why does he start respecting man in his decision in giving rewards?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> So what you are saying is God only predestined a 40 year timeline of the world's history?
> Was Adam not predestined? Seth? Abraham? Isaac? Jacob?
> David? Mary? Jesus?
> Did the Jews have a choice or were they blinded? Given this was in the 40 year timeline  of no free will.
> 
> The flood and ark? It just happened and then God was able to use it to show us the Ark as Jesus for salvation?
> Was 70 AD the predestined time of Christ's return?
> 
> I wonder if God predestined Jesus to be physically dead for three days?



Ask an orthodox Jew what they know of predestination. It's not in the old covenant at all.

 Then you have it mentioned six times in the new covenant and every time it is explicitly about those people of that time, then we have the final message to the church in Revelation 22: 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


 Notice that "whosoever will" ? Predestination was for a short time, and for a great cause, bringing in the new covenant. Christ' salvation goes out to " Whosoever will"!


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> I wonder why God is forcing some of us to choose free will?


Force is not required, it is what will worshippers freely do.


----------



## gordon 2

gemcgrew said:


> Force is not required, it is what will worshippers freely do.



 The very poor choices that some worshipers do is this " what will" that worshipers freely do. And the very good choices that some worshipers do is this" what will" worshipers freely do?
So therefore the choices of worshipers, good and bad, are the promptings of "what will". And this "what will" therefore is the origin of good and evil?

Am I to understand that in this case "what will"  refers to God's will and that in fact worshipers at least are without free will or choice as to being good or bad and of making good choices vs. poor ones? The choices and momentums for choices are already made for worshipers?

Can I add that there are consequences for good or bad choices? And since these choices are God's then so are the consequences?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Ask an orthodox Jew what they know of predestination. It's not in the old covenant at all.
> 
> Then you have it mentioned six times in the new covenant and every time it is explicitly about those people of that time, then we have the final message to the church in Revelation 22: 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
> 
> 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
> 
> 
> Notice that "whosoever will" ? Predestination was for a short time, and for a great cause, bringing in the new covenant. Christ' salvation goes out to " Whosoever will"!



Wasn't the Old Testament prophesy about things predestined? 
You don't see God as controlling anything but the period of Christ on the earth and including 70AD? He only blinded the Jews for the great cause of salvation to Gentiles? He never blinded anyone else or never hardened anyone else's hearts? He never turned anyone over to a reprobate mined?
God had nothing to do with Moses and the Jews? Abraham or Jacob? 
Was creation predestined? Are our days on the earth numbered?
Did Lazarus choose his resurrection?


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> ... salvation isn't based on works because God isn't a respecter of man ...



Please explain this cause and effect; perhaps by defining "respecter of man" and identifying this phrase in scripture.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Please explain this cause and effect; perhaps by defining "respecter of man" and identifying this phrase in scripture.



What if I leave off "because?"
God is no respecter of man. 

If this is only to do with salvation then God "is" a respecter of man concerning obedience and defiance.

Does God change his actions based on our obedience or defiance?
Is God sitting in Heaven today saying; I'm going to base my plan on the actions of Artful. I'll let him defy me and base my actions on Art's actions.
I'll let Art control me.

If God is no respecter of man concerning salvation, is he in all other regards?

I wasn't presenting respecter of man as a cause and effect issue. I was actually pointing that others may see God acting in a cause and effect capacity.
Such as; Jonah using his free will to not go to Ninevah. This caused God to intervene and send the storm. The storm convinced Jonah he had to go to Ninevah. (cause and effect)


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> What if I leave off "because?"
> God is no respecter of man.
> 
> If this is only to do with salvation then God "is" a respecter of man concerning obedience and defiance.
> 
> Does God change his actions obedience or defiance?
> Is God sitting in Heaven today saying; I'm going to base my plan on the actions of Artful. I'll let him defy me and base my actions on Art's actions.
> I'll let Art control me.
> 
> If God is no respecter of man concerning salvation, is he in all other regards?
> 
> I wasn't presenting respecter of man as a cause and effect issue. I was actually pointing that others may see God acting in a cause and effect capacity.
> Such as; Jonah using his free will to not go to Ninevah. This caused God to intervene and send the storm. The storm convinced Jonah he had to go to Ninevah. (cause and effect)



From Strong's: "an accepter of a face (individual), that is, (specifically) one exhibiting partiality: - respecter of persons".

In crude terms, a bigot.  One who makes assumptions about, or classifies, or determines worthiness of people according to their race, sex, position, education, genealogy, heritage, etc.

I think you are misusing the precept.


----------



## centerpin fan




----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Choosing is a works in regards to salvation but not in regards to obedience? In other words we get choices on how we worship God after he chooses us?



Your questions correctly point out the inconsistency of ─ God gets ALL the credit, sometimes.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> From Strong's: "an accepter of a face (individual), that is, (specifically) one exhibiting partiality: - respecter of persons".
> 
> In crude terms, a bigot.  One who makes assumptions about, or classifies, or determines worthiness of people according to their race, sex, position, education, genealogy, heritage, etc.
> 
> I think you are misusing the precept.



What do you think "God is no respecter of man" means? If it's just by the definition you give then are you saying God elects based on our actions and not our heritage?

What criteria did God use at the foundation of the world to elect? Did he use his foreknowledge and base it on our choices, works, obedience, or defiance?


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> What do you thing "God is no respecter of man" means?



Is that a quote from scripture?  Address please.



> If it's just by the definition you give then are you saying God elects based on our actions and not our heritage?



How could you possibly arrive at that conclusion.



> What criteria did God use at the foundation of the world to elect? Did he use his foreknowledge and base it on our choices, works, obedience, or defiance?



Not now.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Is that a quote from scripture?  Address please.
> 
> 
> 
> How could you possibly arrive at that conclusion.
> 
> 
> 
> Not now.



I've heard others use it to show unconditional election. Using "God is no respecter of persons."  
I can't actually find a verse that supports using "God is not respecter of person" in regards to mans works.

I guess I've heard it so many times I've believed it to be scriptural.


----------



## hobbs27

Acts 10:34


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> I've heard others use it to show unconditional election. Using "God is no respecter of persons."
> I can't actually find a verse that supports using "God is not respecter of person" in regards to mans works.
> 
> I guess I've heard it so many times I've believed it to be scriptural.



Without getting into definitions and grammar;
“not a respecter of man” connotes disrespects man, or doesn’t care about man,
“not a respecter or persons” connotes unprejudiced, or not a bigot.

The connection between “unconditional election” and not a “respecter of persons” could be said to be  Rm 9:15 "For He says to Moses, 'I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.' 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.” A good understanding of Exodus 33:12-23 is very revealing.

 It’s not really complicated.  It only gets complicated when men try make it say that they are God.

 “the man who runs” is indeed works, but it is only a very small piece of the picture.


----------



## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> It’s not really complicated.  It only gets complicated when men try make it say that they are God.
> 
> “the man who runs” is indeed works, but it is only a very small piece of the picture.


I heard a man say it today on the radio. He said,"Ten two letter words to live by(or something similar). If it is to be, it is up to me".

I had no choice in the hearing it, considering it, rejecting it and thinking of this thread.


----------



## marketgunner

Has anyone ever admitted to be  "non-elect?
'


----------



## hobbs27

marketgunner said:


> Has anyone ever admitted to be  "non-elect?
> '



Good question. I wonder how many can look at their children and recognize the ones that are never gonna make it.


----------



## hummerpoo

marketgunner said:


> Has anyone ever admitted to be  "non-elect?
> '



I read in Paul’s letters about “assurance”, and my level of understanding is lower than my understanding of God’s sovereignty, attributes, and economy, which I find throughout the Bible.
Does that mean I am non-elect?  Maybe.

I have been known to say that I am fully convinced that my life will glorify God, either by my righteousness or my unrighteousness.
Does that mean that I am non-elect?  Maybe.

I do not declare anyone’s salvation or condemnation, including my own.
Does that mean that I am non-elect?  Maybe.

There is no doubt that the Holy Spirit entered my life and remains.  That brought about great awe of that fact alone, and reverence for the One who did it, but my personal salvation is not a driving force in my life.
Does that mean that I am non-elect?  Maybe.

But, no, I do not admit to being non-elect...or elect.


edit: And I do not condemn or question those who claim personal salvation.
        I have even felt momentary envy on occasion.


----------



## hummerpoo

gemcgrew said:


> I heard a man say it today on the radio. He said,"Ten two letter words to live by(or something similar). If it is to be, it is up to me".
> 
> I had no choice in the hearing it, considering it, rejecting it and thinking of this thread.



It's everywhere!!, It's everywhere!!
God help us!!!!!


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Acts 10:34



Acts 10: 34-35
Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism. 

or;
So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,

35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

This is more in line with "no respecter of persons" based on creed, nation, education, sex, etc. showing God doesn't show favoritism in his election based on this criteria.

Paul isn't using it to show that God is not respecter of man based on his works or merits.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Acts 10:35
but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

God "accepts?" 

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

God "anoints?" 

Acts 10:42
42"And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.

God "orders?"

Acts 10:43
43"Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

God "receives?"

I thought God "was" and "is."


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Acts 10: 34-35
> Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism.
> 
> or;
> So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,
> 
> 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
> 
> This is more in line with "no respecter of persons" based on creed, nation, education, sex, etc. showing God doesn't show favoritism in his election based on this criteria.
> 
> Paul isn't using it to show that God is not respecter of man based on his works or merits.



I was just checking in on you for a few minutes and noticed you couldn't find the verse. I think Paul is comparing Gods love for the gentile and the jew, I think it had more to do with race.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I was just checking in on you for a few minutes and noticed you couldn't find the verse. I think Paul is comparing Gods love for the gentile and the jew, I think it had more to do with race.



I agree. How do we separated "nation" from "person" when reading scripture? 
I see many verses where God chose or elected nations. Is it OK for us to use these verses to mean us as individuals?
Not just verses pertaining to God choosing but to other verses pertaining to nations.
Then how do you separate the verses that pertain to Nations that actually mean the Church or actually mean the Gentiles?

Now if God has elected nations, why can't he elect individuals? I still don't see how you can read the whole Bible and only see one part of it being God's controlled plan.
If God wrote the beginning and end, how can he not write everything in between?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree. How do we separated "nation" from "person" when reading scripture?
> I see many verses where God chose or elected nations. Is it OK for us to use these verses to mean us as individuals?
> Not just verses pertaining to God choosing but to other verses pertaining to nations.
> Then how do you separate the verses that pertain to Nations that actually mean the Church or actually mean the Gentiles?
> 
> Now if God has elected nations, why can't he elect individuals? I still don't see how you can read the whole Bible and only see one part of it being God's controlled plan.
> If God wrote the beginning and end, how can he not write everything in between?



There's very little about the individual, although many of us interpret it that way. You must study the verse out in it's context. Audience relevance is a big part of that. Remember when reading scripture that it is usually directed to a specific audience and it means what it says to them, then when you know what it meant to them, study it to see if it still applies to us today. If so, is it an individual basis or is it to the Body.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree. How do we separated "nation" from "person" when reading scripture?
> I see many verses where God chose or elected nations. Is it OK for us to use these verses to mean us as individuals?
> Not just verses pertaining to God choosing but to other verses pertaining to nations.
> Then how do you separate the verses that pertain to Nations that actually mean the Church or actually mean the Gentiles?
> 
> Now if God has elected nations, why can't he elect individuals? I still don't see how you can read the whole Bible and only see one part of it being God's controlled plan.
> If God wrote the beginning and end, how can he not write everything in between?



Then why don’t you look at the result of an event before you decide what the beginning means?  Deciding that God chose a nation puts everything in a people frame, which is wrong every time.  Looking at the result which God achieved puts the focus on God, which is right every time.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Then why don’t you look at the result of an event before you decide what the beginning means?  Deciding that God chose a nation puts everything in a people frame, which is wrong every time.  Looking at the result which God achieved puts the focus on God, which is right every time.



Because the Bible is the Word of God and he chose Abraham. It was his plan and I want to know the whole plan, beginning, middle, and end.
I don't normally look at the end of a book without understanding the beginning and middle.
I know that God's plan including Israel and Jesus was for the Gentiles to be grafted in, but it's still a part of his plan.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Because the Bible is the Word of God and he chose Abraham. It was his plan and I want to know the whole plan, beginning, middle, and end.
> I don't normally look at the end of a book without understanding the beginning and middle.
> I know that God's plan including Israel and Jesus was for the Gentiles to be grafted in, but it's still a part of his plan.



And it seems to be working out really well for you.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> And it seems to be working out really well for you.



I think it has in it's own way. For some people they are content with the knowledge of their earthly Father. I chose the long and winding road. I feel that it was my only way or the way the Spirit chose to show my spirit.
In the end I might even see it as the way you were shown.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> I think it has in it's own way. For some people they are content with the knowledge of their earthly Father. I chose the long and winding road. I feel that it was my only way or the way the Spirit chose to show my spirit.
> In the end I might even see it as the way you were shown.



Of the 6 elements that I see in your statement, I see one sounds right to me.


----------



## Harbuck

Artfuldodger said:


> Then doesn't this go against what you are talking about in relation to only a certain group having sinned because of their Covenant with God?
> Gentiles didn't have a Covenant with God. In what relation was Adam's sin to the people not from Adam?
> 
> Earlier you said;
> Not if you aren't in covenant with God. Only those in covenant can sin.
> 
> Doesn't this go against the Romans 2:10-16?
> 
> and this;
> Romans 3:23
> for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,



Once your in covenant with God you no longer sin or are seen as a sinner to God. You now transgress, your now a transgresser to God if you break covenant with him.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Harbuck said:


> Once your in covenant with God you no longer sin or are seen as a sinner to God. You now transgress, your now a transgresser to God if you break covenant with him.



I have many thoughts and we've had many discussions on sin as it pertains to covenants. Starting with the Old Covenant which was with the Jews and didn't cover the Gentiles.
But there was the time between Adam and the covenant with the Jews. 
Was everyone a Gentile before there were Jews?  Then came the New Covenant which allowed Gentiles to be grafted in to the Jewish Covenant. The "mystery" as it was called. What salvation did the Gentiles have before being grafted into the Jewish salvation tree?

Romans 11:15
For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful. It will be life for those who were dead!

Romans 11:22
Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off.

Romans 11:27
And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

Now some say this New Covenant was never new. That God has elected his Elect at the foundation of the world.
What this means is covenants don't mean much when it comes to sin and salvation. That is between God and his Elect. This could also mean the Gentile has always been under Covenant with God. God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. God isn't a respecter of man. This means God has elected men in covenant and out of covenant. Jews, Gentiles, Hindus, and even Atheist. Grafted in and not grafted in. Descendants of Isaac and Ishmael. Blinded Jews and hard hearted Gentiles. 

If there were already some men living when Adam was created, did Adam's sin affect their salvation? 
If not and Adam was the first man, was the covenant only between God and the genetic lineage through Seth, Noah, Shem, and Abraham? 
When did God adapt his thing that he wasn't a respecter of man? If God has never been a respecter of man concerning Nations then all men have always had a path to salvation. But what about the "mystery?" What about the men who weren't under a covenant? The men who only knew God by his creation and his General Revelation? The men who were "without" excuse to not worship God?

If there were ever men around who were never under a covenant and therefore couldn't sin, then did they have salvation? Didn't the new covenant put everyone under a covenant by the grafting? This grafting allowed salvation to all but it could have allowed doom to many. Unless there was no salvation for the Gentile before the grafting.

Maybe the New Covenant was never new and the Elect were always elected. Time and chronological order as it pertains to sin and salvation is meaningless. The Elect have always been saved and the non-elect have always been doomed.
I could go along with that but why in the world have all of the genealogy, Jews. Gentiles, and grafting?

Romans 11:21-22
For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
(Even the Elect? Even the saved Gentiles?)


----------



## EverGreen1231

Artfuldodger said:


> I have many thoughts and we've had many discussions on sin as it pertains to covenants. Starting with the Old Covenant which was with the Jews and didn't cover the Gentiles.
> But there was the time between Adam and the covenant with the Jews.
> Was everyone a Gentile before there were Jews?  Then came the New Covenant which allowed Gentiles to be grafted in to the Jewish Covenant. The "mystery" as it was called. What salvation did the Gentiles have before being grafted into the Jewish salvation tree?
> 
> Romans 11:15
> For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful. It will be life for those who were dead!
> 
> Romans 11:22
> Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off.
> 
> Romans 11:27
> And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
> 
> Now some say this New Covenant was never new. That God has elected his Elect at the foundation of the world.
> What this means is covenants don't mean much when it comes to sin and salvation. That is between God and his Elect. This could also mean the Gentile has always been under Covenant with God. God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. God isn't a respecter of man. This means God has elected men in covenant and out of covenant. Jews, Gentiles, Hindus, and even Atheist. Grafted in and not grafted in. Descendants of Isaac and Ishmael. Blinded Jews and hard hearted Gentiles.
> 
> If there were already some men living when Adam was created, did Adam's sin affect their salvation?
> If not and Adam was the first man, was the covenant only between God and the genetic lineage through Seth, Noah, Shem, and Abraham?
> When did God adapt his thing that he wasn't a respecter of man? If God has never been a respecter of man concerning Nations then all men have always had a path to salvation. But what about the "mystery?" What about the men who weren't under a covenant? The men who only knew God by his creation and his General Revelation? The men who were "without" excuse to not worship God?
> 
> If there were ever men around who were never under a covenant and therefore couldn't sin, then did they have salvation? Didn't the new covenant put everyone under a covenant by the grafting? This grafting allowed salvation to all but it could have allowed doom to many. Unless there was no salvation for the Gentile before the grafting.
> 
> Maybe the New Covenant was never new and the Elect were always elected. Time and chronological order as it pertains to sin and salvation is meaningless. The Elect have always been saved and the non-elect have always been doomed.
> I could go along with that but why in the world have all of the genealogy, Jews. Gentiles, and grafting?
> 
> Romans 11:21-22
> For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
> Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
> (Even the Elect? Even the saved Gentiles?)



It is God's will that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance. All have been elected: All are being called.


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## welderguy

EverGreen1231 said:


> It is God's will that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance. All have been elected: All are being called.



Matt.22:14
"For many are called,but few are chosen."

Is this wedding referring to eternal life?


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## gemcgrew

EverGreen1231 said:


> It is God's will that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance. All have been elected: All are being called.


"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" 2 Peter 1:1
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

All the elect.


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## BAR308

gemcgrew said:


> The Bible is my first principle.
> 
> "In the beginning God created"
> 
> God is ultimate cause.



God caused sin?? wow! good luck standing in front of Him on Judgement Day... and placing the blame of sin on Him... good luck with that... (wouldnt want to be you... just saying)


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## Artfuldodger

BAR308 said:


> God caused sin?? wow! good luck standing in front of Him on Judgement Day... and placing the blame of sin on Him... good luck with that... (wouldnt want to be you... just saying)



In the beginning was the Word. Did the word coexist before sin and why? Any idea that in the beginning God knew the Word would become flesh? 
Even if the concept of the "Word" was just in God's word/mind? Meaning that even if Jesus was only with God in his mind, or even if God would eventually become Jesus himself, the Word was with God "in the beginning." Why?


----------



## gemcgrew

BAR308 said:


> God caused sin?? wow! good luck standing in front of Him on Judgement Day... and placing the blame of sin on Him... good luck with that... (wouldnt want to be you... just saying)


How do you equate acknowledging the Creator, as blaming the Creator?


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## hummerpoo

BAR308 said:


> God caused sin?? wow! good luck standing in front of Him on Judgement Day... and placing the blame of sin on Him... good luck with that... (wouldnt want to be you... just saying)



Denying Providence? ... Doesn't sound like a place to stand "in front of Him on Judgement Day".


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## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> How do you equate acknowledging the Creator, as blaming the Creator?





hummerpoo said:


> Denying Providence? ... Doesn't sound like a place to stand "in front of Him on Judgement Day".


----------



## hobbs27

Banjo Picker said:


> Because Satan had ! why do you think he was kicked out of heaven for?



Because he desired to be God? But when did this happen? In Job he was going back and forth from heaven to earth, so his fall was after Adams fall.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Because he desired to be God? But when did this happen? In Job he was going back and forth from heaven to earth, so his fall was after Adams fall.



How could this be as Satan lead Eve into temptation?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> How could this be as Satan lead Eve into temptation?



 I thought that was the serpent?


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## hobbs27

A Satan is an adversary, an enemy. The doctrine of Satan is not so cut and dry, certainly not as simple as we are taught.


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## Artfuldodger

Banjo Picker said:


> Sin didn't enter the world for Gods purpose but after it entered God used it for several purposes.



Could you explain this a little bit. Maybe some examples.

When was the Word with God and for what purpose?
Was he standing by like a fireman waiting for a future mission to develop or did he always know what his mission would be?


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## hobbs27

Banjo Picker said:


> Not so In Isa. 14:12-14 we have conclusive proof that Lucifer ruled the Earth before the days of Adam. It could not have been since Adam that he ruled and fell from Heaven as in this passage, for he was already a fallen creature before Adam was created. In Adam's day he regained dominion of the Earth and has been the prince of this world ever since. In this passage both Satan and the king of Babylon are in view. This is know as the law of double reference, that is a visible person is immediately addressed while at the same time an invisible person who is using the visible person as a tool to hinder the plan of God is also addressed.
> For when Jesus said to Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou art an offense to me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, But those be of men"(Matt. 16:23), He did not mean that Peter was the personal devil, but that he was being used as a tool of Satan to keep Christ from getting to the cross. Hence, both Peter and Satan are addressed and involved in the statement.
> In Isa. 14:12-14 we have some statements which cannot possibly be made of an earthly king of Babylon. The passage is universally accepted as referring to the fall of Satan. note what Isa. 14:12-14 says, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I WILL ascend into heaven, I WILL exalt my throne above the stars of God: I WILL sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I WILL ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."



The passage is universally accepted to mean Satan, only in certain groups. I will not debate this though because my interest in an already banished evil entity is next to zero. God Bless.


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## hobbs27

Not looking to debate this, but some may be interested in another view...enjoy.


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## hobbs27

Those are interesting videos, did you watch and research the meaning of Diabolos... Or devil ? It's not so much pointing out what scripture says, but knowing what scripture says...what it truly means.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Those are interesting videos, did you watch and research the meaning of Diabolos... Or devil ? It's not so much pointing out what scripture says, but knowing what scripture says...what it truly means.



I can see that it might have been men who were the diabolos tempting Jesus.

What about other accounts of "the" Devil or "the" Satan? The one who was kicked out of Heaven? The one who became ruler of this earth? The one who was defeated on the Cross or at Christ's return?
Maybe not now but there was an actual spiritual devil who could lead one astray.

2 Timothy 2:26  
And they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. 

James 4:7 
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.


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## Artfuldodger

We must also realize that temptations can come from our own desires too;

1 Corinthians 10:13 
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. 

James 1:13-16 
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I can see that it might have been men who were the diabolos tempting Jesus.
> 
> What about other accounts of "the" Devil or "the" Satan? The one who was kicked out of Heaven? The one who became ruler of this earth? The one who was defeated on the Cross or at Christ's return?
> Maybe not now but there was an actual spiritual devil who could lead one astray.
> 
> 2 Timothy 2:26
> And they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
> 
> James 4:7
> Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.


http://imaginenosatan.com/Articles/How to Pick Up.html


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> http://imaginenosatan.com/Articles/How to Pick Up.html



My non-trinitarian beliefs raises a few eyebrows as does your Preterism but convincing fellow Christians there is no Satan will take some work!

Job 1:6-7
One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the LORD, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them.
7The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."

1 John 5:18  
We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> My non-trinitarian beliefs raises a few eyebrows as does your Preterism but convincing fellow Christians there is no Satan will take some work!
> 
> Job 1:6-7
> One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the LORD, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them.
> 7The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
> 
> 1 John 5:18
> We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.



I'm not looking to change anyone's mind. I would just like for them to understand presenting a Satan that tempted Eve, that fell from heaven, that tortured job, that still goes around today attacking Christians is not as easy as they think.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I'm not looking to change anyone's mind. I would just like for them to understand presenting a Satan that tempted Eve, that fell from heaven, that tortured job, that still goes around today attacking Christians is not as easy as they think.



Why not?
What about Eph.6:12?


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Why not?
> What about Eph.6:12?



If that's all you need to convince you then great, but I start at verse 10 down and understand it to be about the high priest.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> If that's all you need to convince you then great, but I start at verse 10 down and understand it to be about the high priest.



Wouldn't the high priest fall under the category of "flesh and blood",which Paul makes the point that we wrestle not against?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Wouldn't the high priest fall under the category of "flesh and blood",which Paul makes the point that we wrestle not against?



If there's one thing I can't stand it's someone that refuses to answer a question, so I will answer how I see this, but Im not saying you are wrong.
. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 

 I read this and see the high priest and scribes as the powers, and rulers of the darkness of their age...they were the hosts of wickedness in the Temple.
 Refer to Matthew 23.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I'm not looking to change anyone's mind. I would just like for them to understand presenting a Satan that tempted Eve, that fell from heaven, that tortured job, that still goes around today attacking Christians is not as easy as they think.



Who would you say "the god of this world" is in this verse?

2 Corinthians 4:4

" In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."


----------



## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> Who would you say "the god of this world" is in this verse?
> 
> 2 Corinthians 4:4
> 
> " In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."


I believe that it is more likely God than Satan. I have not found any parallels that would reference Satan.

On the other hand, Romans 11:8 and Matthew 11:25?

In either case, I think that we would agree as it being supernatural. A supernatural remedy would also be required.

It is a good study and may very well take a man in a different direction than he imagined to go.


----------



## Artfuldodger

We've also got  "prince of the power of the air."

Why is god of this world spelled with a small "g" if it's 
God?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> If there's one thing I can't stand it's someone that refuses to answer a question, so I will answer how I see this, but Im not saying you are wrong.
> . 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
> 
> I read this and see the high priest and scribes as the powers, and rulers of the darkness of their age...they were the hosts of wickedness in the Temple.
> Refer to Matthew 23.



I don't read this as flesh and blood. It could be as Gem said being supernatural spirits/forces but the high priest and scribes were flesh and blood. 
Somewhere and somehow there are "spiritual hosts of wickedness" in the heavens.
How would one define  "heavenly places?" This is where rulers of darkness live or do you see this as apocalyptic language?


----------



## Artfuldodger

2 Corinthians 4:4
Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

I'm trying to read this through my "Election" goggles which is confusing if it is Satan as this version uses.
I guess God could let Satan blind everyone and then give the "elect" the power to see the light.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Who would you say "the god of this world" is in this verse?
> 
> 2 Corinthians 4:4
> 
> " In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."



This would also fit the office of the High Priest. Blinding people with the temporal worship and old testament laws ...blinding them of the Gospel and the true God of the universe. Note: god of this world was actually the god of that age, and they were in the age that was about to go away Hebrews 8:13.

Is it about the high priest? I can't say for sure but he fits the description.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm trying to read this through my "Election" goggles which is confusing



I bet.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I bet.



So what is the short version of who our enemy is?
Man? 
How does Satan/devil fit in to your beliefs as to who or what he was? 
You don't see anything supernatural within our enemies? Satan blinding non-believers? Satan and spiritual warfare?
Satan and his demons?
Would you say that all of this supernatural aspect of evil and darkness is over and that now all evil and darkness is caused by "man?"
The "light" provided in darkness from God? This has nothing to do with supernatural causes?

Satan, God's enemy, adversary, servant, messenger, tempter for God since he can't, evil causer since God can't, etc. 
Did God get Satan to do his dirty work and now that he has been defeated, man is the only evil force?

Who blinds non-believers now?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> So what is the short version of who our enemy is?
> Man?
> How does Satan/devil fit in to your beliefs as to who or what he was?
> You don't see anything supernatural within our enemies? Satan blinding non-believers? Satan and spiritual warfare?
> Satan and his demons?
> Would you say that all of this supernatural aspect of evil and darkness is over and that now all evil and darkness is caused by "man?"
> The "light" provided in darkness from God? This has nothing to do with supernatural causes?
> 
> Satan, God's enemy, adversary, servant, messenger, tempter for God since he can't, evil causer since God can't, etc.
> Did God get Satan to do his dirty work and now that he has been defeated, man is the only evil force?
> 
> Who blinds non-believers now?




I see many Satan's in the scriptures which are by definition an adversary.
 Is there any evil spirits or Satan wondering around attacking Christians today? No.
 Man needs to take responsibility for their own actions, the devil didn't make any of us do it, and if there is a devil today or evil spirit it is absolutely powrless to the Gospel.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I see many Satan's in the scriptures which are by definition an adversary.
> Is there any evil spirits or Satan wondering around attacking Christians today? No.
> Man needs to take responsibility for their own actions, the devil didn't make any of us do it, and if there is a devil today or evil spirit it is absolutely powrless to the Gospel.



But there was one in this age as defined by Paul;

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

As you said I too believe, "powerless to the Gospel." I'm referring to those blinded before believing in the power of the Gospel.
What Paul is stating was that they were unbelievers who were blinded by the god of that age. They could not see the light of the Gospel. "They" were blinded by someone or entity to not see the Good News of salvation by Jesus. "They" due to their blindness by "him' saw salvation by following the Law.
Perhaps "him" doesn't convince man to believe he can save himself by following the Law. Man does seem perfectly capable of believing he can save himself by works so a guess "his" evil scheming isn't needed to blind any longer.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> But there was one in this age as defined by Paul;
> 
> 2 Corinthians 4:4
> The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
> 
> As you said I too believe, "powerless to the Gospel." I'm referring to those blinded before believing in the power of the Gospel.
> What Paul is stating was that they were unbelievers who were blinded by the god of that age. They could not see the light of the Gospel. "They" were blinded by someone or entity to not see the Good News of salvation by Jesus. "They" due to their blindness by "him' saw salvation by following the Law.
> Perhaps "him" doesn't convince man to believe he can save himself by following the Law. Man does seem perfectly capable of believing he can save himself by works so a guess "his" evil scheming isn't needed to blind any longer.




Their age is not this age according to Hebrews 8:13 they were still in the old covenant age,that was about to be over. They lived in a transitional 40 year period of already but not yet..They had Salvation but not the complete gift of eternal life, until Christ came back with his reward.


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## hobbs27

Banjo Picker said:


> My bible says in Eph. 6:10-18). different !!! Here is Eph. 6:12 "We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. In 1 Pet. 5: 8-9). Peter referred to Satan as and "adversary" and that he ,"as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he  may devour" this could not be a man doing this to his self. So if I'am under standing what your saying that Paul and Peter didn't know what they were talking about. Notice in the verse the word rulers, meaning more than one, and this world as is as now.



No sir, you don't understand what I am saying.


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## welderguy

Banjo Picker said:


> My bible says in Eph. 6:10-18). different !!! Here is Eph. 6:12 "We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. In 1 Pet. 5: 8-9). Peter referred to Satan as and "adversary" and that he ,"as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he  may devour" this could not be a man doing this to his self. So if I'am under standing what your saying that Paul and Peter didn't know what they were talking about. Notice in the verse the word rulers, meaning more than one, and this world as is as now.



I agree.
Jesus told Peter that satan desired to sift him as wheat.But Jesus prayed for Peter.We know that satan attacked Peter the night that he denied Jesus three times.That nearly destroyed Peter's faith,so much that he went back to fishing.But later Jesus restored him.And then,just forty days later Peter stood up at Pentecost and gave one of the most powerful sermons of all time.

My point is,satan still tries to destroy us.But he can only do as much as God allows and no more.


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> I agree.
> Jesus told Peter that satan desired to sift him as wheat.But Jesus prayed for Peter.We know that satan attacked Peter the night that he denied Jesus three times.That nearly destroyed Peter's faith,so much that he went back to fishing.But later Jesus restored him.And then,just forty days later Peter stood up at Pentecost and gave one of the most powerful sermons of all time.
> 
> My point is,satan still tries to destroy us.But he can only do as much as God allows and no more.



Luke 22:34
Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."

Any ideas on how this all went down? How was it worked out between God, Jesus, and Satan?


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Luke 22:34
> Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."
> 
> Any ideas on how this all went down? How was it worked out between God, Jesus, and Satan?



See Job 1.


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## Artfuldodger

Job 1 is a scriptural account of that event? Do we have a scriptural account of Satan getting his orders from God to get Peter to deny Christ three times? Do we even know if Satan did this?


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