# Primitive tribes



## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

There are still some primitive tribes in the world, the kind who throw wooden spears at helicopters.  If some cataclysmic event were going to occur like an asteroid strike that will kill everything on the planet but we figured put how to bring some people to a colony in space or on Mars, do we take some of the primitives?

Or

When we realize the asteroid is coming and we start making plans for our escape, do we contact the primitives and try to get them up to speed, maybe then ask them if they wanna go?


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## 660griz (Oct 31, 2022)

God knows where they are. He's got this. Don't risk getting eaten.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 31, 2022)

Primitive man may well be the survivors of said event as we with all our tech are wiped from history. Maybe you should ask if they will help you?


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## Nicodemus (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> There are still some primitive tribes in the world, the kind who throw wooden spears at helicopters.  If some cataclysmic event were going to occur like an asteroid strike that will kill everything on the planet but we figured put how to bring some people to a colony in space or on Mars, do we take some of the primitives?
> 
> Or
> 
> When we realize the asteroid is coming and we start making plans for our escape, do we contact the primitives and try to get them up to speed, maybe then ask them if they wanna go?




They don`t need modern people`s help. They`re doing just fine on their own. All we do is confuse and hinder them.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Primitive man may well be the survivors of said event as we with all our tech are wiped from history. Maybe you should ask if they will help you?



Assume that it's a planet killing event.  No chance of survival.


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## brutally honest (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> … do we take some of the primitives?




What do you mean “we”?  Who says you’re going?

I get the distinct impression that the computer wouldn’t pick you.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> They don`t need modern people`s help. They`re doing just fine on their own. All we do is confuse and hinder them.



I had this discussion with my neighbor who is getting into hunting and fishing with my help.  He's become drawn to the idea that living a life closer to nature and casting off the trappings of modern day life would result in more happiness.  He said that the primitives are better off as they are.  Imagine suffering and dying from an abcessed tooth, or having your daughter captured by a marauding rival tribe, maybe you get permanently handicapped in the melee.  

There's a tribe off the coast of India, I believe, and it is a violation of the law to try to contact them or interfere with them in any way.  I believe that last time some missionaries tried to evangelize to them they ended up killed.  What gives us the right to deny them access to technology that might save their lives?


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> What do you mean “we”?  Who says you’re going?
> 
> I get the distinct impression that the computer wouldn’t pick you.


"We" in a general sense.

A good question is who gets picked, how and why?


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Assume that it's a planet killing event.  No chance of survival.


Well then sure, go ask em i guess.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I had this discussion with my neighbor who is getting into hunting and fishing with my help.  He's become drawn to the idea that living a life closer to nature and casting off the trappings of modern day life would result in more happiness.  He said that the primitives are better off as they are.  Imagine suffering and dying from an abcessed tooth, or having your daughter captured by a marauding rival tribe, maybe you get permanently handicapped in the melee.
> 
> There's a tribe off the coast of India, I believe, and it is a violation of the law to try to contact them or interfere with them in any way.  I believe that last time some missionaries tried to evangelize to them they ended up killed.  What gives us the right to deny them access to technology that might save their lives?




I would imagine if they wanted help from us, they`d figure out a way to let us know.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 31, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Primitive man may well be the survivors of said event as we with all our tech are wiped from history. Maybe you should ask if they will help you?


Good idea!


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I had this discussion with my neighbor who is getting into hunting and fishing with my help.  He's become drawn to the idea that living a life closer to nature and casting off the trappings of modern day life would result in more happiness.  He said that the primitives are better off as they are.  Imagine suffering and dying from an abcessed tooth, or having your daughter captured by a marauding rival tribe, maybe you get permanently handicapped in the melee.
> 
> There's a tribe off the coast of India, I believe, and it is a violation of the law to try to contact them or interfere with them in any way.  I believe that last time some missionaries tried to evangelize to them they ended up killed.  What gives us the right to deny them access to technology that might save their lives?


People that are new to the discovery of a life closer to nature often feel as your friend does, and in many ways they are correct, but not all. There are many good things about modern life but they come at a great cost to many. A life in harmony with the natural word is what brings that missing happiness to those folks that are seeking. They know something is wrong with how we are living now. They dont always know why.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Assume that it's a planet killing event.  No chance of survival.


Take some anyway just to ensure genetic diversity. Interesting sidenote ensuring genetic diversity was almost the exact opposite of what god did when he had Noah put his family on that ark! Weird, it's almost like god had no concept of how science works.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 31, 2022)

When we try to "help" formerly happy "primitive" people, they usually wind up living as drunks and prostitutes in the slums of big third-world cities wearing achy breaky heart tshirts.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I had this discussion with my neighbor who is getting into hunting and fishing with my help.  He's become drawn to the idea that living a life closer to nature and casting off the trappings of modern day life would result in more happiness.  He said that the primitives are better off as they are.  Imagine suffering and dying from an abcessed tooth, or having your daughter captured by a marauding rival tribe, maybe you get permanently handicapped in the melee.
> 
> There's a tribe off the coast of India, I believe, and it is a violation of the law to try to contact them or interfere with them in any way.  I believe that last time some missionaries tried to evangelize to them they ended up killed.  What gives us the right to deny them access to technology that might save their lives?





> What gives us the right to deny them access to technology that might save their lives?


Would we be denying them access to technology or respecting their choice to have nothing to do with us or our technology?


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## Nicodemus (Oct 31, 2022)

Any time "modern" man has made contact with isolated people, in addition to introducing them to new ways, they`ve also introduced them to infectious diseases and maladies that has either decimated them or wiped them out because these people had no built in immunities that modern people have.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 31, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> I would imagine if they wanted help from us, they`d figure out a way to let us know.





> last time some missionaries tried to evangelize to them they ended up killed.


Thats a pretty good indication that they werent sitting around hoping some technologically advanced folks would come save them from their simple life


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## bullethead (Oct 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> When we try to "help" formerly happy "primitive" people, they usually wind up living as drunks and prostitutes in the slums of big third-world cities wearing achy breaky heart tshirts.


Every now and then I see someone from a 3rd World Country wearing a Super Bowl Champions T-Shirt with the Losing Team's name on it.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> When we try to "help" formerly happy "primitive" people, they usually wind up living as drunks and prostitutes in the slums of big third-world cities wearing achy breaky heart tshirts.


so what's the downside to that? KIDDING - *KIDDING*


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Every now and then I see someone from a 3rd World Country wearing a Super Bowl Champions T-Shirt with the Losing Team's name on it.



Or a little kid wearing a "World's greatest grandma" t shirt.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> I would imagine if they wanted help from us, they`d figure out a way to let us know.



Well, they don't know the asteroid is coming.  Is it not our duty to tell them?


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> When we try to "help" formerly happy "primitive" people, they usually wind up living as drunks and prostitutes in the slums of big third-world cities wearing achy breaky heart tshirts.



Also, they never want to give up the MTV and Cocoa Puffs once they get a taste.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Well, they don't know the asteroid is coming.  Is it not our duty to tell them?




Why? No need. Ain`t a thing they can do. Ain`t a thing we can do about it either.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Any time "modern" man has made contact with isolated people, in addition to introducing them to new ways, they`ve also introduced them to infectious diseases and maladies that has either decimated them or wiped them out because these people had no built in immunities that modern people have.



There's probably a way to improve their lives in ways that they would appreciate while mitigating the harms.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Why? No need. Ain`t a thing they can do. Ain`t a thing we can do about it either.



If we can take some people to safety, why would we choose to exclude them?


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Thats a pretty good indication that they werent sitting around hoping some technologically advanced folks would come save them from their simple life



They don't know any better.  What gives us the moral authority to decide if they're worthy or not worthy of the knowledge?  This is really like the Prime Directive issue from Star Trek.






						Prime Directive - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Nicodemus (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> There's probably a way to improve their lives in ways that they would appreciate while mitigating the harms.




But they might not want their lives improved. They probably like the way they live now. If they didn`t, what is stopping them from finding their way into what we sometimes mistakenly call civilization. Civilized man often has the bad habit of sticking their nose into places it doesn`t belong.

Some people are happy with their lot in life.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> But they might not want their lives improved. They probably like the way they live now. If they didn`t, what is stopping them from finding their way into what we sometimes mistakenly call civilization. Civilized man often has the bad habit of sticking their nose into places it doesn`t belong.
> 
> Some people are happy with their lot in life.



Ignorance is bliss.

If one of their children was dying and you offered them access to medicine as simple as an antibiotic that would cure their child many of them would take it.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Ignorance is bliss.
> 
> If one of their children was dying and you offered them access to medicine as simple as an antibiotic that would cure their child many of them would take it.




I don`t know? Maybe they would, maybe not.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Ignorance is bliss.
> 
> If one of their children was dying and you offered them access to medicine as simple as an antibiotic that would cure their child many of them would take it.



Now imagine they have a chief or shaman that tells them that they can't give the medicine to the child but the parent still wants you to help.  What then?


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## Nicodemus (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Now imagine they have a chief or shaman that tells them that they can't give the medicine to the child but the parent still wants you to help.  What then?




In that case you let your conscience be your guide.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> I don`t know? Maybe they would, maybe not.



I'm guessing some wouldn't but some would.  If they were to see it work, that might shift the numbers.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> In that case you let your conscience be your guide.



It might be better if one's conscience is shaped by positive forces.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

I tend to think that humanity doesn't have an obligation to bring the primitives to the space colony, unlike heirloom seeds. We already have representation of their existence on record and they probably won't contribute to an interstellar endeavor.  They might be a dangerous liability.


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## bullethead (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> There's probably a way to improve their lives in ways that they would appreciate while mitigating the harms.


Every now and then some modern bleeding hearts drop off a boat load of coconuts for the Sentinel Islanders.  The inhabitants seem to tolerate the intruders as long as they are getting a treat.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Every now and then some modern bleeding hearts drop off a boat load of coconuts for the Sentinel Islanders.  The inhabitants seem to tolerate the intruders as long as they are getting a treat.



The first principle when interacting with them should be "do no harm".  If you can help mitigate their suffering, isn't non-intervention doing a kind of harm?


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## bullethead (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> There's probably a way to improve their lives in ways that they would appreciate while mitigating the harms.


A little off tangent but people fly drones over these various remote tribes and the villagers look at those drones in the same manner as we see depicted when "more advanced" people describe their actions when seeing UFO's.
Maybe UFO's are Drones checking out "us" less advanced tribes while we are using drones to check out less advanced tribes thinking how poor off they are and should have our help????


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

In this Modern Ark scenario, do you bring representative leaders of all the main religious practices?  Should that even be a consideration?


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> A little off tangent but people fly drones over these various remote tribes and the villagers look at those drones in the same manner as we see depicted when "more advanced" people describe their actions when seeing UFO's.
> Maybe UFO's are Drones checking out "us" less advanced tribes while we are using drones to check out less advanced tribes thinking how poor off they are and should have our help????



If UFOs are drones, the operators appear to be using them in seemingly poorly calculated ways.  What would be the motivation to have them be observed in ways that seem like accidents?


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## bullethead (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> The first principle when interacting with them should be "do no harm".  If you can help mitigate their suffering, isn't non-intervention doing a kind of harm?


I think the overwhelming majority of homeless people living on the streets don't want our help in mitigating their suffering.  We may only think they are suffering because we want them to have what we have and consider anything less suffering but in actuality they are just fine.
We cannot prevent every medical emergency within the most privileged of areas so why think that we can save people who don't want or need saving?
Their antibiotics and prayers are some crushed leaves and a guy dancing around some hot coals. Probably 50/50 on the results too with maybe the crushed leaves much better than that because they've been treating whatever ailments are confined to that island the same way for thousands of years already.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> They don't know any better.  What gives us the moral authority to decide if they're worthy or not worthy of the knowledge?  This is really like the Prime Directive issue from Star Trek.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understand your point and can definitely see both sides of it. But...


> They don't know any better.


I question if them knowing is "better".
Whisking them off to somewhere else and saving their lives appeals to our sense of self importance but in saving their lives we would also be destroying their way of life at the same time. Which is better? I dont know.


> What gives us the moral authority to decide if they're worthy or not worthy of the knowledge?


Is that something for "us" to decide either way?
How about just keeping our noses out of it and whatever is going to happen will happen?

It seems like a no win situation for them.
Saving them destroys them.
Not saving them destroys them.
On one side we would be doing the destroying.
On the other side "the universe" would be doing the destroying. But at least that would be a natural destruction.

And Im familiar with the Prime Directive


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## bullethead (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> If UFOs are drones, the operators appear to be using them in seemingly poorly calculated ways.  What would be the motivation to have them be observed in ways that seem like accidents?


Because they might not all be "official business " drones and are being run by the similar knuckleheads on earth that use drones irresponsibly.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I think the overwhelming majority of homeless people living on the streets don't want our help in mitigating their suffering.  We may only think they are suffering because we want them to have what we have and consider anything less suffering but in actuality they are just fine.
> We cannot prevent every medical emergency within the most privileged of areas so why think that we can save people who don't want or need saving?
> Their antibiotics and prayers are some crushed leaves and a guy dancing around some hot coals. Probably 50/50 on the results too with maybe the crushed leaves much better than that because they've been treating whatever ailments are confined to that island the same way for thousands of years already.



I align with Sam Harris in his definition of "good" as being that which contributes to human flourishing and "bad" being the worst possible misery for everyone for as long as possible.  I think that sets up a pretty useful spectrum to place things on.  The mentally ill homeless don't seem to be flourishing.  Often, when they are given antipsychotics, they can live in ways that seem less full of suffering and more fulfilled.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I understand your point and can definitely see both sides of it. But...
> 
> I question if them knowing is "better".
> Whisking them off to somewhere else and saving their lives appeals to our sense of self importance but in saving their lives we would also be destroying their way of life at the same time. Which is better? I dont know.
> ...



Nerd.

But seriously, I have a hard time making the case that ignorance is better than knowledge.  If we have the power to mitigate suffering, should we use it?  If they wanna grub for tubers on the space station, maybe we can accommodate them somehow.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

I've decided they're not worth bringing.  Who else isn't worth bringing?


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## bullethead (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I align with Sam Harris in his definition of "good" as being that which contributes to human flourishing and "bad" being the worst possible misery for everyone for as long as possible".  I think that sets up a pretty useful spectrum to place things on.  The mentally ill homeless don't seem to be flourishing.  Often, when they are given antipsychotics, they can live in ways that seem less full of suffering and more fulfilled.


In a few scenarios that hit closer to home for me, If the Mentally Ill/Drug Addicts were responsible enough to take their meds they wouldn't be homeless. It is a never ending cycle of them needing to be on meds to "better their lives" but either are not responsible enough to go get the meds, remember to take the meds, or flat out do not want to be on the meds.
I realize that we are speaking in general terms and not absolutes as there are examples of Pro and Con.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Because they might not all be "official business " drones and are being run by the similar knuckleheads on earth that use drones irresponsibly.



I was assuming extraterrestrial operators


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> In a few scenarios that hit closer to home for me, If the Mentally Ill/Drug Addicts were responsible enough to take their meds they wouldn't be homeless. It is a never ending cycle of them needing to be on meds to "better their lives" but either are not responsible enough to go get the meds, remember to take the meds, or flat out do not want to be on the meds.
> I realize that we are speaking in general terms and not absolutes as there are examples of Pro and Con.



It's a tricky problem.


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## bullethead (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Nerd.
> 
> But seriously, I have a hard time making the case that ignorance is better than knowledge.  If we have the power to mitigate suffering, should we use it?  If they wanna grub for tubers on the space station, maybe we can accommodate them somehow.


They might pass you on the way up in their Bamboo Rocket fueled by antibacterial pitch from treebark.


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## bullethead (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I was assuming extraterrestrial operators


So was I. More Advanced doesn't always = follow the rules.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Nerd.
> 
> But seriously, I have a hard time making the case that ignorance is better than knowledge.  If we have the power to mitigate suffering, should we use it?  If they wanna grub for tubers on the space station, maybe we can accommodate them somehow.





> Nerd


Nah. I only know about the Prime Directive because I would tune in to see her -


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## bullethead (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I've decided they're not worth bringing.  Who else isn't worth bringing?


A close family friend of ours worked with a man from Virginia here in Pa. The Va man always invited our friend down to his family's land to hunt. They used buckshot and chased the deer, turkeys...whatever with dogs. 
For many years my friend went and noticed that some dogs would get on the truck while some stayed on the porch. On return trips past the porch some dogs would get off the truck while others jumped on the truck. He could never make any sense,rhyme or reason about it. He thought about it for years being a Beagle man himself for rabbits.
Finally 20 years later he said to his friend Jim  "how do you decide which dogs go and which ones stay?"
Jim replied  "what do you mean?"
My friend said "well sometimes 10 dogs go, sometimes 3 dogs go, sometimes another dog cant fit on the truck and 2 or 3 are running behind it or any number of dogs, it's always different...do certain dogs know areas better than the rest? Are some dogs better than other for turkeys rather than deer???"
Jim and some of his family laugh and he says "the dogs that wanna hunt get on the truck, the dogs that don't wanna hunt don't"

Sometimes we just overthink things...


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## bullethead (Oct 31, 2022)

In other words, while you are trying to figure out who should stay and who should go....there might be someone who gets on the truck and takes your seat!


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I've decided they're not worth bringing.  Who else isn't worth bringing?


Anyone who thinks they deserve to go.


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## bullethead (Oct 31, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Anyone who thinks they deserve to go.


If that spaceship ride is a metaphor for a trip to Heaven......does your answer stay the same?


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Nah. I only know about the Prime Directive because I would tune in to see her -



I remember her.  Marina Sirtis.  I had a similar reaction.  She looked to me like a Greek Goddess.  (She's got wicked hairy arms.  That's why she wears sleeves).


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> If that spaceship ride is a metaphor for a trip to Heaven......does your answer stay the same?



Saucy!!!  Nice.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Ignorance is bliss.
> 
> If one of their children was dying and you offered them access to medicine as simple as an antibiotic that would cure their child many of them would take it.


For every person they have that dies from lack of antibiotics, we have a hundred thousand that die in car wrecks, fentanyl overdoses, electrical shocks, and a hundred other things that they don't have to worry about. If their system didn't work long-term, we wouldn't be here now. Whether or not our system works long-term remains to be seen.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> In other words, while you are trying to figure out who should stay and who should go....there might be someone who gets on the truck and takes your seat!



By the time this Neo-Ark scenario becomes a possibility, I imagine that we will all be able to go, as our consciousnesses will be downloaded onto and infinite platform with unlimited cake and cookies.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> For every person they have that dies from lack of antibiotics, we have a hundred thousand that die in car wrecks, fentanyl overdoses, electrical shocks, and a hundred other things that they don't have to worry about. If their system didn't work long-term, we wouldn't be here now. Whether or not our system works long-term remains to be seen.



Would you trade places with them if you could?  Imagine a red pill/blue pill scenario.  You could get transferred to the island with no recollection of your life in the modern world and you would live as they do, shivering in the cold and baking in the heat.  You might die from a spider bite or a tooth ache.  Would you take your children with you and subject them to that life?


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Would you trade places with them if you could?  Imagine a red pill/blue pill scenario.  You could get transferred to the island with no recollection of your life in the modern world and you would live as they do, shivering in the cold and baking in the heat.  You might die from a spider bite or a tooth ache.  Would you take your children with you and subject them to that life?


I have thought many times that I would prefer that life to this one, for sure.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I have thought many times that I would prefer that life to this one, for sure.



I feel that way until day 6 of a camping/hunting/fishing trip and then I miss modernity.  By day 20 it subsides.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I feel that way until day 6 of a camping/hunting/fishing trip and then I miss modernity.  By day 20 it subsides.


I rarely miss modernity. There are advantages and comforts, but enough disadvantages to outweigh it. The older generation of my family when I was growing up who lived a mostly completely self-reliant subsistence lifestyle without electricity or running water seemed much happier and satisfied than most folks today.


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## bullethead (Oct 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I rarely miss modernity. There are advantages and comforts, but enough disadvantages to outweigh it. The older generation of my family when I was growing up who lived a mostly completely self-reliant subsistence lifestyle without electricity or running water seemed much happier and satisfied than most folks today.


The worst thing about my days is when the TV gets turned on in the Evening. I could do without it and neer miss it.
Those rural Alaskan inhabitants (not the tv show variety) have always intrigued me.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I rarely miss modernity. There are advantages and comforts, but enough disadvantages to outweigh it. The older generation of my family when I was growing up who lived a mostly completely self-reliant subsistence lifestyle without electricity or running water seemed much happier and satisfied than most folks today.





bullethead said:


> The worst thing about my days is when the TV gets turned on in the Evening. I could do without it and neer miss it.
> Those rural Alaskan inhabitants (not the tv show variety) have always intrigued me.



Have to get the population down to 500 million, like the Georgia Guidestones said in order for everybody to live that way.


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## Spotlite (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Nerd.
> 
> But seriously, I have a hard time making the case that ignorance is better than knowledge.  If we have the power to mitigate suffering, should we use it?  If they wanna grub for tubers on the space station, maybe we can accommodate them somehow.


First you gotta remember whose defining ignorance and knowledge. Seems one sided at telling “them” what it is.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The worst thing about my days is when the TV gets turned on in the Evening. I could do without it and neer miss it.
> Those rural Alaskan inhabitants (not the tv show variety) have always intrigued me.




Yep. I almost was one. I came so very close to going.


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## Spotlite (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Would you trade places with them if you could?  Imagine a red pill/blue pill scenario.  You could get transferred to the island with no recollection of your life in the modern world and you would live as they do, shivering in the cold and baking in the heat.  You might die from a spider bite or a tooth ache.  Would you take your children with you and subject them to that life?


I wouldn’t trade places but I’d love to visit with no intention other than experiencing their ways. 3 to 4 days would be plenty.


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## Spotlite (Oct 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The worst thing about my days is when the TV gets turned on in the Evening. I could do without it and neer miss it.
> Those rural Alaskan inhabitants (not the tv show variety) have always intrigued me.


I keep saying that’s on my bucket list. A year in Alaska off grid.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Yep. I almost was one. I came so very close to going.



Takes a certain breed.  Not everyone is cut out for that.  Now that i'm developing some age related infirmities, I don't think I could hack it. There are still things I can do that are useful, but I need a modern support system in order to continue to live.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I keep saying that’s on my bucket list. A year in Alaska off grid.



Lawd.  So hard....


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Lawd.  So hard....


I think I’d be ok on everything until after the snow has been on the ground for about a month. I’m sure cabin fever will send me back to GA.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I think I’d be ok on everything until after the snow has been on the ground for about a month. I’m sure cabin fever will send me back to GA.



Watch and read anything about Richard Proenneke.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Takes a certain breed.  Not everyone is cut out for that.  Now that i'm developing some age related infirmities, I don't think I could hack it. There are still things I can do that are useful, but I need a modern support system in order to continue to live.




The red circle in Northeast Alaska. That was where I planned to go and try to homestead. Somewhere along the Chandalar River. 1974.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> The red circle in Northeast Alaska. That was where I planned to go and try to homestead. Somewhere along the Chandalar River. 1974.
> 
> 
> View attachment 1186682



Ever seen _Life Below Zero_? I always liked the name Chugach.


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## Spotlite (Oct 31, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> The red circle in Northeast Alaska. That was where I planned to go and try to homestead. Somewhere along the Chandalar River. 1974.
> 
> 
> View attachment 1186682


That’d been pretty cool!! I want to go, but I don’t want to homestead there. If it wasn’t for my immediate family it’d be no question - I’d try to homestead somewhere Alaska.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That’d been pretty cool!! I want to go, but I don’t want to homestead there. If it wasn’t for my immediate family it’d be no question - I’d try to homestead somewhere Alaska.



I might homestead in the Philippines some day.


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## Spotlite (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I might homestead in the Philippines some day.


I know two that did and love it.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Ever seen _Life Below Zero_?




Yes, but I preferred The Last Alaskans. I read the Richard Proenneke book when it first came out, and just about everything I could find out about the area I wanted to go. At the time you could homestead either 40 acres for non-agricultural land. I had sent off for and received all the information. And I let my Mother talk me out of it. That area is very close to the Arctic Refuge and if I didn`t homestead and just built a cabin the the area I would have been Grandfathered in to live in the Refuge when it was closed off, like seven other families are now. 

Unfortunately as of 1980 (I think) newcomers cannot take up habitation in the refuge on a permanent basis anymore, and homesteading was stopped in 1986.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Yes, but I preferred The Last Alaskans. I read the Richard Proenneke book when it first came out, and just about everything I could find out about the area I wanted to go. At the time you could homestead either 40 acres for non-agricultural land. I had sent off for and received all the information. And I let my Mother talk me out of it. That area is very close to the Arctic Refuge and if I didn`t homestead and just built a cabin the the area I would have been Grandfathered in to live in the Refuge when it was closed off, like seven other families are now.
> 
> Unfortunately as of 1980 (I think) newcomers cannot take up habitation in the refuge on a permanent basis anymore, and homesteading was stopped in 1986.



You used to be able to make a mining claim in Montana for dirt cheap.  That was (yikes) 30 years ago, last time I was there.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 31, 2022)

I might have been wildly successful, or I might have died or been killed the first week up there. Alaska can be very unmerciful especially to those unfamiliar with the conditions experienced up there. I didn`t know it at the time but there were, and still are folks that live off grid up there, and there livelyhood is trapping. These trappers protect their "areas" and don`t tolerate others trapping their territory. And that territory might span 100 miles. New trappers who tend to trap on anothers lands tend to disappear. It seems that you have to be accepted. With no real law around, some big areas up there are a law unto itself.


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## bullethead (Oct 31, 2022)

Whenever PBS runs the documentary about Richard Proenekke I try to make sure that is TV I watch.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> In this Modern Ark scenario, do you bring representative leaders of all the main religious practices?  Should that even be a consideration?


I don't see the point IF the only skill they bring to the table is religion. If they actually have reality-based useful skills and happen to be religious, no problem.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I've decided they're not worth bringing.  Who else isn't worth bringing?


REO Speedwagon and Foghat. Seriously, what really worthwhile musical developments have they contributed to their craft? I regret every second of my young life that spent listening to them instead of Thelonious Monk or Sonny Rollins for example.


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## atlashunter (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> There's probably a way to improve their lives in ways that they would appreciate while mitigating the harms.


If they haven’t moved past the Stone Age at this point in human history leave them where they are.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> REO Speedwagon and Foghat. Seriously, what really worthwhile musical developments have they contributed to their craft? I regret every second of my young life that spent listening to them instead of Thelonious Monk or Sonny Rollins for example.



You can't fight this feeling anymore?


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> If they haven’t moved past the Stone Age at this point in human history leave them where they are.



I agree with you.  But for those that have a mandate to "spread the Word", that creates a conundrum.  Also, for those that feel that doing nothing to alleviate suffering is perpetuating it.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> I might have been wildly successful, or I might have died or been killed the first week up there. Alaska can be very unmerciful especially to those unfamiliar with the conditions experienced up there. I didn`t know it at the time but there were, and still are folks that live off grid up there, and there livelyhood is trapping. These trappers protect their "areas" and don`t tolerate others trapping their territory. And that territory might span 100 miles. New trappers who tend to trap on anothers lands tend to disappear. It seems that you have to be accepted. With no real law around, some big areas up there are a law unto itself.



What does this mean?  Able to get enough meat and wood to survive kind of comfortably?  Having enough free time to write a novel or compose a beautiful piece of music?  Finding a cure for cancer?  Finding a way to construct a society where people aren't killed for trapping on someone elses' land?

I'm just playing Devil's advocate and trying to make conversation.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> What does this mean?  Able to get enough meat and wood to survive kind of comfortably?  Having enough free time to write a novel or compose a beautiful piece of music?  Finding a cure for cancer?  Finding a way to construct a society where people aren't killed for trapping on someone elses' land?
> 
> I'm just playing Devil's advocate and trying to make conversation.




Simply to have a small, strong, well built cabin with an efficient wood stove, a well stocked meat cache, and plenty of firewood. I have very little interest in music, world events, and absolutely no desire to even be around society. While I love to read if the subject interests me, I have little desire to write a book.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Simply to have a small, strong, well built cabin with an efficient wood stove, a well stocked meat cache, and plenty of firewood. I have very little interest in music, world events, and absolutely no desire to even be around society. While I love to read if the subject interests me, I have little desire to write a book.



Some noble aspirations can only be realized when conditions are such that basic survival is low on the list of things to worry about.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Some noble aspirations can only be realized when conditions are such that basic survival is low on the list of things to worry about.




Up there though, basic survival is the top priority. At all times.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Have to get the population down to 500 million, like the Georgia Guidestones said in order for everybody to live that way.


I kind of agree with that, to be honest.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Watch and read anything about Richard Proenneke.


Got his DVD.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 31, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I think I’d be ok on everything until after the snow has been on the ground for about a month. I’m sure cabin fever will send me back to GA.


I don't want to live anywhere that it's winter for 9 months a year. We got frosting temps 6-7 months here, and I don't even like that.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> If that spaceship ride is a metaphor for a trip to Heaven......does your answer stay the same?


Sigh. You got me
Ok really the only thing you trapped me into was possibly offending some on here, so here i go...
There is a big difference from someone feeling they deserve to go and a person working hard as they can to live up to a standard that may permit them to go. I will leave it at that.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I don't want to live anywhere that it's winter for 9 months a year. We got 6-7 months of winter here, and I don't even like that.


You can sho nuff homestead in the south and folks all over the world would love to have our growin season. They can keep that snow.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Sigh. You got me
> Ok really the only thing you trapped me into was possibly offending some on here, so here i go...
> There is a big difference from someone feeling they deserve to go and a person working hard as they can to live up to a standard that may permit them to go. I will leave it at that.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Up there though, basic survival is the top priority. At all times.



Not much time left to build a Sistine Chapel much less paint it.


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## bullethead (Oct 31, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Sigh. You got me
> Ok really the only thing you trapped me into was possibly offending some on here, so here i go...
> There is a big difference from someone feeling they deserve to go and a person working hard as they can to live up to a standard that may permit them to go. I will leave it at that.


It was in no way a trap or something meant to be disrespectful to you or anyone. I saw the parallels between the two, your answer, and thought I would ask.
I agree that there is a big difference like you described above.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

bullethead said:


> If that spaceship ride is a metaphor for a trip to Heaven......does your answer stay the same?



You picked up what I dropped.  Nice.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Oct 31, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Yep. I almost was one. I came so very close to going.


I lived there for 18 months when I was in the Air Force. I wasn't living out in the bush obviously, but no matter where you live you are minutes or even seconds from nature. Anchorage has moose and bears running around all over. A lot of Alaskans consider themselves in their own world, and call the rest of America "The Lower 48" states that is. Probably the most fascinating place I ever lived so far, no doubt.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Not much time left to build a Sistine Chapel much less paint it.


If you view the earth as a canvas, and your way of life a paint brush, then a good and simple life creates plenty of beauty for all to share.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> You picked up what I dropped.  Nice.


I would prefer most "primitive" tribes' version of heaven to the Hebrew one, myself. Life in a gold-paved city spending eternity praising the Lord isn't my idea of paradise.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 31, 2022)

Or to say it another way,
Is it more important to build great civilizations or to preserve the natural beauty of the world?


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 31, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I keep saying that’s on my bucket list. A year in Alaska off grid.


Have you read the book or seen the movie "Into the Wild"? It's a true story about a young recent college grad who goes into the interior of Alaska near Mt. Mckinley Park or thereabouts with almost ZERO outdoor experience. It turns out about how you would expect for him.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 31, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Or to say it another way,
> Is it more important to build great civilizations or to preserve the natural beauty of the world?


Good question! Ideally it's best to strike a balance.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 31, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Or to say it another way,
> Is it more important to build great civilizations or to preserve the natural beauty of the world?


That answer is self evident until nature decides to enforce its rules on us again when technology has carried us as far as it can.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Have you read the book or seen the movie "Into the Wild"? It's a true story about a young recent college grad who goes into the interior of Alaska near Mt. Mckinley Park or thereabouts with almost ZERO outdoor experience. It turns out about how you would expect for him.


I dont wanna assume anything, but i bet most of us on here would do better than an Emory grad with no woodsman experience.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Have you read the book or seen the movie "Into the Wild"? It's a true story about a young recent college grad who goes into the interior of Alaska near Mt. Mckinley Park or thereabouts with almost ZERO outdoor experience. It turns out about how you would expect for him.


Yes. He was delusional.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 31, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I think I’d be ok on everything until after the snow has been on the ground for about a month. I’m sure cabin fever will send me back to GA.


Depending on what part of Alaska you live in you can still do a lot of outdoor things almost all year round. It's just frustrating in the shortest days of winter when you only have a couple of hours of daylight to do them in.  In the interior (where I lived) ice fishing can be pretty fun, but by the end of winter the ice is so thick you have to use an EXTENSION on your ice auger because a regular auger can only work on ice under three feet thick.
BTW I used a manual (hand powered) auger - pictured on the right - which will put hair on your chest as they say.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 31, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I dont wanna assume anything, but i bet most of us on here would do better than an Emory grad with no woodsman experience.


In the kid's defense, he didn't have You Tube videos!
True though, the kid was ill equipped and didn't do enough research. 
He would have had a rough time even in the Georgia woods.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yes. He was delusional.


He lived longer than I thought he would. He wasn't without experience tramping across the country but he seriously underestimated the cold and wilderness of Alaska.
There's only one way to live that primitive of a lifestyle in Alaska and that's to do it the way that Dick Proenneke did it. As you know from the DVD, he built his cabin and support buildings over a period of years leading up to his full time stay there and he was well supplied by his friend and bush pilot, Babe Alsworth.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 31, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> He lived longer than I thought he would. He wasn't without experience tramping across the country but he seriously underestimated the cold and wilderness of Alaska.
> There's only one way to live that primitive of a lifestyle in Alaska and that's to do it the way that Dick Proenneke did it. As you know from the DVD, he built his cabin and support buildings over a period of years leading up to his full time stay there and he was well supplied by his friend and bush pilot, Babe Alsworth.


Know thy enviroment.
If you can freeze to death cut a stack of trees and be ready to build a fire.
If you can sweat to death, leave them trees for shade!


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 31, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Know thy enviroment.
> If you can freeze to death cut a stack of trees and be ready to build a fire.
> If you can sweat to death, leave them trees for shade!


Yep, folks have romantic ideas about surviving without modern technology but that's all it is. Romance. A certain degree of technology and resupply is required.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 31, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Yep, folks have romantic ideas about surviving without modern technology but that's all it is. Romance. A certain degree of technology and resupply is required.


I like the idea of only using as little as possible. A good balance between bein amish and gettin out a chainsaw if you need it.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 31, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I like the idea of only using as little as possible. A good balance between being amish and gettin out a chainsaw if you need it.


We all might get a chance at getting by with less within the next few years until the economy, inflation, and the financial world gets straightened out.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 31, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> We all might get a chance at getting by with less within the next few years until the economy, inflation, and the financial world gets straightened out.


I didnt mean to like that! Only agree


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 31, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I didnt mean to like that! Only agree


I knew what you meant. No joke though, a larger percentage of our income is going to be required for basic foodstuffs and energy over these next several years. Your solar is going to really pay off.


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## Spotlite (Oct 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Have you read the book or seen the movie "Into the Wild"? It's a true story about a young recent college grad who goes into the interior of Alaska near Mt. Mckinley Park or thereabouts with almost ZERO outdoor experience. It turns out about how you would expect for him.


The movie, yes. I just want to be able to say “I’ve felt that cold air” at least once.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 31, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> The movie, yes. I just want to be able to say “I’ve felt that cold air” at least once.


I felt the same way so we took a cruise up there. Wouldn't you know it, heat wave in Anchorage. It was 80 degrees and during the summer that they saw their first 100 degree temperature ever.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 31, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> The movie, yes. I just want to be able to say “I’ve felt that cold air” at least once.


I felt it a lot working night shift outside in the winter in Fairbanks! 
Luckily, we didn't have to load bombs when it got colder than 30 below zero (that's 62 degrees below freezing if you want to look at it that way) because of various aviation hazards. But wouldn't you know it, the temperature would usually hover about 25 below zero all night, so we had work outside on the flight line all night!  But at least it was a dry cold!  The minute you get inside you warm right up in an extremely dry cold.
And yes it's true - when it's _extremely _cold you can freeze a banana and literally pound a nail into wood with it. You can throw a cup of water up into the air and it vaporizes/crystalizes before it hits the ground. Research it! It's like another planet kind of cold.


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## 660griz (Nov 1, 2022)

bullethead said:


> The worst thing about my days is when the TV gets turned on in the Evening. I could do without it and neer miss it.
> Those rural Alaskan inhabitants (not the tv show variety) have always intrigued me.


My first few years growing up was without indoor plumbing. Running to the outhouse in the middle of a cold night in Georgia was bad. Can't imagine doing that in Alaska. Taking a bath on the porch and being the youngest, I got in last. We had a coal truck deliver to us for heating. No A/C till I was 18 and moved out. I remember getting indoor plumbing and air conditioning. I hope I never have to go back to those conditions. I can't imagine, as I get older, having to cut wood from increasingly longer distances from home, all summer, so I can NOT die during the winter. I could do it if I had to, but I am surely not volunteering. Now, I leave for 2 weeks in the woods tomorrow. My camper has indoor plumbing and running water. Although, I do dig a hole sometimes for old times sake. 
My wife grew up in Alaska and we go back to Petersburg every year or so. Nice place to VISIT.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 1, 2022)

Not all of Alaska is frigid. A friend of mine recently moved to Sitka. I've looked up the average monthly temps there, and it's not really much colder than it is here in the Smokies. The North Slope is a way different story.


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## 660griz (Nov 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Not all of Alaska is frigid. A friend of mine recently moved to Sitka. I've looked up the average monthly temps there, and it's not really much colder than it is here in the Smokies. The North Slope is a way different story.


I lived in Michigan for 3 years, one winter. It's average winter temps are below Sitka. I have found that lack of sunshine affects me more than low temps. Months of cloudy and cold are just depressing.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> My first few years growing up was without indoor plumbing. Running to the outhouse in the middle of a cold night in Georgia was bad. Can't imagine doing that in Alaska. Taking a bath on the porch and being the youngest, I got in last. We had a coal truck deliver to us for heating. No A/C till I was 18 and moved out. I remember getting indoor plumbing and air conditioning. I hope I never have to go back to those conditions. I can't imagine, as I get older, having to cut wood from increasingly longer distances from home, all summer, so I can NOT die during the winter. I could do it if I had to, but I am surely not volunteering. Now, I leave for 2 weeks in the woods tomorrow. My camper has indoor plumbing and running water. Although, I do dig a hole sometimes for old times sake.
> My wife grew up in Alaska and we go back to Petersburg every year or so. Nice place to VISIT.


St. Petersburg? That's the warm part of Alaska.  Now the downside as you are well aware of - TOO MUCH RAIN & SNOW! Something about the way I'm wired or something, I get sick a lot in cool wet weather. I got sick a lot in England, and I got sick a lot in Germany. 18 months in Fairbanks Alaska and not so much as a single head cold. In Germany I had pneumonia, bronchitis, you name it, constantly! Fairbanks only gets 12 inches of rain annually, and if it weren't for the snow accumulating in the winter there wouldn't be much snow either.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> I lived in Michigan for 3 years, one winter. It's average winter temps are below Sitka. I have found that lack of sunshine affects me more than low temps. Months of cloudy and cold are just depressing.


I work with a guy from Maine who moved down here to escape the long months of freezing darkness. I asked him what they did up there in the winter, and he said "mostly become alcoholics."


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## bullethead (Nov 1, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I work with a guy from Maine who moved down here to escape the long months of freezing darkness. I asked him what they did up there in the winter, and he said "mostly become alcoholics."


I hunted in far Northern Maine twice.  Allagash Area. The vehicles that the locals had were held together by duct tape and prayers but their Snowmobiles were either a year or two old or extremely well maintained. When winter arrives it is all about Priorities


----------



## 660griz (Nov 1, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> St. Petersburg? That's the warm part of Alaska.


No sir. Just Petersburg.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Nov 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> No sir. Just Petersburg.


Oh my mistake, it just Petersburg - but still in the warm, wet part of Alaska with the ginormous bears!


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 2, 2022)

Israel said:


> Took my wife's sister to check out a college in Presque Isle, Maine about 50 years ago. All I remember about the trip was getting to a motel room that remained about 50 degrees no matter what you set the thermostat on and going down a main street that was cut out of snow to look like this on both sides. With cut outs for driveways to the stores.


Too cool (no pun intended)! I drove through a tunnel of snow like that once in the White Mountains (living up to their name!) in Arizona. I've never been to Maine or that part of the country, but I watch "Northwoods Law" about game wardens in New Hampshire, and it looks like an interesting region.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 2, 2022)

Israel said:


> Took my wife's sister to check out a college in Presque Isle, Maine about 50 years ago. All I remember about the trip was getting to a motel room that remained about 50 degrees no matter what you set the thermostat on and going down a main street that was cut out of snow to look like this on both sides. With cut outs for driveways to the stores.


My dad was stationed there at the Air Force base for awhile. He hated it.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 2, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> My dad was stationed there at the Air Force base for awhile. He hated it.


When I was in the Air Force I knew a few guys who were stationed at Loring AFB in Maine, right near the Canadian border. They closed in 1994.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 2, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> When I was in the Air Force I knew a few guys who were stationed at Loring AFB in Maine, right near the Canadian border. They closed in 1994.


This was back in the 50s when Dad was there. I think the Prescue Isle base closed in the 60s. It was somewhere near Caribou, MN. He said if you were walking guard duty at night in January and closed your eyes too long, your eyelids would freeze shut and you would have to hold your hand over them to thaw them out.


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## hummerpoo (Nov 2, 2022)

bullethead said:


> *The worst thing about my days is when the TV gets turned on in the Evening. I could do without it and neer miss it.*
> Those rural Alaskan inhabitants (not the tv show variety) have always intrigued me.


Many, many years ago when my wife left the TV went with her.
When I was captured by a new wife, a TV came with her.  As relates to TV, the best 13 years of my life — well, maybe the first 10 yrs. when I had never seen one.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 3, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> This was back in the 50s when Dad was there. I think the Prescue Isle base closed in the 60s. It was somewhere near Caribou, MN. He said if you were walking guard duty at night in January and closed your eyes too long, your eyelids would freeze shut and you would have to hold your hand over them to thaw them out.


Yeah, a guard with his frozen eyes is what you want for optimal security!  It's like Sergeant Shultz on Hogan's Heroes "I see nothing, NOTHING!"


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## kmh1031 (Nov 6, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I had this discussion with my neighbor who is getting into hunting and fishing with my help.  He's become drawn to the idea that living a life closer to nature and casting off the trappings of modern day life would result in more happiness.  He said that the primitives are better off as they are.  Imagine suffering and dying from an abcessed tooth, or having your daughter captured by a marauding rival tribe, maybe you get permanently handicapped in the melee.
> 
> There's a tribe off the coast of India, I believe, and it is a violation of the law to try to contact them or interfere with them in any way.  I believe that last time some missionaries tried to evangelize to them they ended up killed.  What gives us the right to deny them access to technology that might save their lives?


The earth will never be destroyed Ecc 1:4
Ps 37:29 righteous live here… forever

Ps 104:5 earth here forever….
He simply will remove the unrighteous… and nothing anywhere will destroy the earth.. 
and the wrong man has done to the earth will be made right.. as God will bring to ruin those ruining earth: Rev 11:18
Matt 5:5 said: “Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth

So.. for those that believe in the truths/prophesies of the Bible.. we don’t worry..as we know we have a happy future soon for earth and live here in perfect condition
 for those that don’t… then things like earth being destroyed etc, perhaps keep people up at night..


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 6, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> The earth will never be destroyed Ecc 1:4
> Ps 37:29 righteous live here… forever
> 
> Ps 104:5 earth here forever….
> ...


Either way "the Earth" wins: I don't believe in the falsehoods/speculations of the bible, but I do believe in evolution/science, and humans - like all species - will eventually go extinct and be replaced by a less environmentally harmful species. Granted, at some point the planet will get burned up when the sun gets hotter as it burns up it's remaining fuel then it too will be gone, but that's quite a way down the road.

The earth will never be destroyed Ecc 1:4
Ps 37:29 righteous live here… forever

 both these statements are wrong. Both the Earth and humans will eventually be gone, possibly (but not likely) at the same time.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 6, 2022)

I wonder what drives us to be so harmful when we know so much?


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## The Original Rooster (Nov 6, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I wonder what drives us to be so harmful when we know so much?


Greed? Doesn't seem to matter how much we know, we still have the same old vices. No need to invent new ones, even if we could.


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## Ruger#3 (Nov 6, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I wonder what drives us to be so harmful when we know so much?


Ignorance sometimes, the whites killed more natives by disease than by aggression by a considerable number.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 6, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Ignorance sometimes, the whites killed more natives by disease than by aggression by a considerable number.


That could be true of some points in history, and we have moved foward and corrected some mistakes. But now look at us. Here we are with mountains of trash and heck bent on carving the whole place to bits. We should know better.


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## Ruger#3 (Nov 6, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> That could be true of some points in history, and we have moved foward and corrected some mistakes. But now look at us. Here we are with mountains of trash and heck bent on carving the whole place to bits. We should know better.



The mountains of my youth don’t even resemble the same place. The ridges are gone from strip mining. Where aceint hardwoods once grew now it’s pines. I listen to stories of reintroduction of elk like that’s an offset to the damage done, SMH.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 6, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I wonder what drives us to be so harmful when we know so much?


It could be that the "harmful" things we know are relatively recent developments in the grand scheme of things. Humans evolved being mainly hunter/gatherers and our total population wasn't that large, but once agriculture caught on, and the associated stable & complicated population centers caught on - growing exponentially - competition for resources & technology to keep these cities growing/producing increased. After many centuries of this trajectory a large society could not "turn back the clock" to a simpler & less harmful to the earth lifestyle because it would get taken over by more advanced societies which stay advanced - and powerful - through practices which unfortunately harm the planet. Basically modern society created a monster by being too successful for our own good, to the detriment of the planet. The next "extinction event" - whether natural or manmade - will reset the planet soon enough!


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## kmh1031 (Nov 6, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Either way "the Earth" wins: I don't believe in the falsehoods/speculations of the bible, but I do believe in evolution/science, and humans - like all species - will eventually go extinct and be replaced by a less environmentally harmful species. Granted, at some point the planet will get burned up when the sun gets hotter as it burns up it's remaining fuel then it too will be gone, but that's quite a way down the road.
> 
> The earth will never be destroyed Ecc 1:4
> Ps 37:29 righteous live here… forever
> ...


Wrong only from a humans viewpoint, one that has not studied and seen the trusty’s, science, prophesies etc of the Bible. The earth will stand forever, only unrighteous people, or those that follow false religion… including Christian’s who adhere to false teachings, or do not believe in the god of the Bible will be gone. ps 37 guarantees that.. 
but, the Bible is a myth written by men and is only and interesting book…. So they say


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 6, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> It could be that the "harmful" things we know are relatively recent developments in the grand scheme of things. Humans evolved being mainly hunter/gatherers and our total population wasn't that large, but once agriculture caught on, and the associated stable & complicated population centers caught on - growing exponentially - competition for resources & technology to keep these cities growing/producing increased. After many centuries of this trajectory a large society could not "turn back the clock" to a simpler & less harmful to the earth lifestyle because it would get taken over by more advanced societies which stay advanced - and powerful - through practices which unfortunately harm the planet. Basically modern society created a monster by being too successful for our own good, to the detriment of the planet. The next "extinction event" - whether natural or manmade - will reset the planet soon enough!


Growth for growths sake is the mentality of a cancer cell.


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## bullethead (Nov 6, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> The earth will never be destroyed Ecc 1:4
> Ps 37:29 righteous live here… forever
> 
> Ps 104:5 earth here forever….
> ...


Just to get a gauge on what you believe in the Bible, do you think that the verses which are directions for curing Leprosy are accurate truths?


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## kmh1031 (Nov 6, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Just to get a gauge on what you believe in the Bible, do you think that the verses which are directions for curing Leprosy are accurate truths?


Curing it? Or diagnosing it? God gave them the instructions for identifying contagious Leprosy va non contagious leprosy.
If you are saying the miracles of Laban etc yes I do believe it Was not simply the bathing in the River 7 times.. it was the importance of obedience and putting faith in God,
and thus He was cured for that reason… non medically


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## WaltL1 (Nov 6, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> That could be true of some points in history, and we have moved foward and corrected some mistakes. But now look at us. Here we are with mountains of trash and heck bent on carving the whole place to bits. We should know better.


We do know better.
Doesnt mean we choose better.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 7, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Wrong only from a humans viewpoint, one that has not studied and seen the trusty’s, science, prophesies etc of the Bible. The earth will stand forever, only unrighteous people, or those that follow false religion… including Christian’s who adhere to false teachings, or do not believe in the god of the Bible will be gone. ps 37 guarantees that..
> but, the Bible is a myth written by men and is only and interesting book…. So they say


Yes, the bible was written by man, that's why it has almost zero scientific or historic merit: if it was written by god things might not be explained completely, but they wouldn't be 100 percent wrong. It's not just the bible, all religious holy books are written by man for man. 

No matter what we believe, the earth itself (because it's a planet like any other planet despite currently - but not always in the past - having life on it)
will eventually in the far, far future be gone. Life of any species will be gone too, as conditions eventually become unlivable. Planets, stars, and everything else in space are born then die - they come then go - millions of them constantly. Until somebody can prove to me that Earth and our sun - a star -are somehow exempt from everything else in the universe (and why should they be?) then the evidence points to our eventual demise both as a species and as a planet/star. That's life in the big city I guess!


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 7, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Growth for growths sake is the mentality of a cancer cell.



Oh I hear you! But this is the world I was born into and I don't make the rules. That said it does explain why I don't think humans are anything special. We are just one species out of many, different than other species, but at the end of the day no better and no worse than any other species. 
DNA based, made of the same chemicals as pretty much every living thing, following the rules of science & physics in the real world.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 7, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Oh I hear you! But this is the world I was born into and I don't make the rules. That said it does explain why I don't think humans are anything special. We are just one species out of many, different than other species, but at the end of the day no better and no worse than any other species.
> DNA based, made of the same chemicals as pretty much every living thing, following the rules of science & physics in the real world.


We are that plus a long list of things science cannot explain.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 7, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Yes, the bible was written by man, that's why it has almost zero scientific or historic merit: if it was written by god things might not be explained completely, but they wouldn't be 100 percent wrong. It's not just the bible, all religious holy books are written by man for man.
> 
> No matter what we believe, the earth itself (because it's a planet like any other planet despite currently - but not always in the past - having life on it)
> will eventually in the far, far future be gone. Life of any species will be gone too, as conditions eventually become unlivable. Planets, stars, and everything else in space are born then die - they come then go - millions of them constantly. Until somebody can prove to me that Earth and our sun - a star -are somehow exempt from everything else in the universe (and why should they be?) then the evidence points to our eventual demise both as a species and as a planet/star. That's life in the big city I guess!


Wait, did you just say a book has zero scientific or historical merit BECAUSE it was written by a man?


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## Spotlite (Nov 7, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Wait, did you just say a book has zero scientific or historical merit BECAUSE it was written by a man?


Watch out for the back peddling…….it can be a humorous explanation


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## kmh1031 (Nov 7, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Yes, the bible was written by man, that's why it has almost zero scientific or historic merit: if it was written by god things might not be explained completely, but they wouldn't be 100 percent wrong. It's not just the bible, all religious holy books are written by man for man.
> 
> No matter what we believe, the earth itself (because it's a planet like any other planet despite currently - but not always in the past - having life on it)
> will eventually in the far, far future be gone. Life of any species will be gone too, as conditions eventually become unlivable. Planets, stars, and everything else in space are born then die - they come then go - millions of them constantly. Until somebody can prove to me that Earth and our sun - a star -are somehow exempt from everything else in the universe (and why should they be?) then the evidence points to our eventual demise both as a species and as a planet/star. That's life in the big city I guess!


Written by man, but inspired of God… written from the imperfect humans perspective which we all can relate to. 

Oh so many say… Everything just fell into place perfectly in the universe… air, the fact plants give oxygen, we give carbon dioxide.. 
the Bible explains the water cycle…

The Bible is not a science book, but where it does touch on science it is 100% correct… well before modern man knew modern medicene:  earth round, not supported by elephants, turtles, etc
Just a couple.. 
Isa 40: 22 “one who dwells above circle of earth” 
Job 26:7 He stretches out the northern sky over empty space, Suspending the earth upon nothing! .. and the smart ones at the time said what?
All written 4500 years ago+

Oh and the quarantine of the Israelites from sick.  the washing of hands, the handling of sick and dead to prevent spread of disease… when was that discovered? 

No… they had no idea why they did these things and more.. but god knew and gave those laws to Moses… to rptect his people 

And the perfect prophetic scriptures of the messiah, his life, how he would die,  no bones broken, which was common from Roman soldier to expediate death… he had no control over it.. but scripture fullfilled from 200 years previous 

What about the statue in Daniel that represents the govts that affected gods people and down today.. to the Anglo American world power represented by the iron and clay feet… partly strong… partly weak… like both nations once were… WWII but are weak today due to the people clearly evident not as strong as once was. 
So much more… but of course… “written by man” and Has no merit


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 7, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Wait, did you just say a book has zero scientific or historical merit BECAUSE it was written by a man?


Exactly! Even the smartest most educated people of the day didn't know jack squat back then (through no fault of their own) compared to now. Of course, what we currently know is nothing compared to what people will know thousands of years from now.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 7, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Written by man, but inspired of God… written from the imperfect humans perspective which we all can relate to.
> 
> Oh so many say… Everything just fell into place perfectly in the universe… air, the fact plants give oxygen, we give carbon dioxide..
> the Bible explains the water cycle…
> ...


Isa 40: 22 “one who dwells above circle of earth” You know whom else thinks that the Earth is "a circle"? FLAT EARTH believers! They think the Earth is a big flat circular shape, versus spherical. Big difference between a circle and a sphere. 

Regardless I'm not the most articulate, so I suggest going on you tube and watch "40 Scientific Inaccuracies from the Bible" and they can explain things better than I can. 

BTW many biblical/torah scholars from both Jewish & Christian faiths are finding more & more evidence that Moses probably didn't exist, and some think he may have existed, but his achievements were greatly embellished. And there is very little evidence that The Exodus (on a large scale as described in the bible) happened.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 7, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Exactly! Even the smartest most educated people of the day didn't know jack squat back then (through no fault of their own) compared to now. Of course, what we currently know is nothing compared to what people will know thousands of years from now.


So by that logic everything you are tellin me now will wrong in the future because we dont know anything.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 7, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Written by man, but inspired of God… written from the imperfect humans perspective which we all can relate to.
> 
> Oh so many say… Everything just fell into place perfectly in the universe… air, the fact plants give oxygen, we give carbon dioxide..
> the Bible explains the water cycle…
> ...


I would say the bible has merit as fiction. Like many works of fiction it can inspire, motivate, encourage, guide, etc. Many Jews are quite pragmatic about the fact that more & more the torah/first five books of the old testament is being debunked by modern advances in archaeology and other sciences. So now many take the attitude of "it's not about absolute truth & accuracy, it's about the takeaway we get from the stories themselves - the stories are inspiring and full of life lessons, and bind our culture together." No problem with that, but to be fair that's what all religious stories do! That's pretty much the purpose of all religions throughout the world.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 7, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> So by that logic everything you are tellin me now will wrong in the future because we dont know anything.


I believe there is a higher power. I don't believe we are anywhere near understanding it. I don't think the Hebrews 2000 years ago did either.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 7, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> So by that logic everything you are tellin me now will wrong in the future because we dont know anything.


Not wrong, just incomplete for many subjects. Yes we may be totally wrong on some things, or at least "in the ballpark" on others. But if science is being honest then we should be constantly proving ourselves wrong once new facts & evidence are revealed. New testing technologies also advance science and disprove inaccurate/wrong ideas.


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## kmh1031 (Nov 7, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Watch out for the back peddling…….it can be a humorous explanation


Did u not understand my post? 
Please go back and read again… yes, written by man but inspired of god… 
Slow down… read the post 
2Tim 3:16
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,


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## kmh1031 (Nov 7, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I believe there is a higher power. I don't believe we are anywhere near understanding it. I don't think the Hebrews 2000 years ago did either.


No they did not, this the guidance by god.. through Moses and the eventual direction and writings.. ho else would they know key medical safeties without a higher power


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## bullethead (Nov 7, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Did u not understand my post?
> Please go back and read again… yes, written by man but inspired of god…
> Slow down… read the post
> 2Tim 3:16
> All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,


I am certain that you do not understand Spotlite's post.


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## kmh1031 (Nov 7, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Watch out for the back peddling…….it can be a humorous explanation


A little axious and quick to find fault or back me in corner when you have failed to read and understand the simple scentific items I have presented.. 
go slow, take a deep breath..  look at the items of science and prophesies I noted… a few of hundreds… don’t u back peddle once u read and attempt to comprehend


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## kmh1031 (Nov 7, 2022)

I think it is going to more interesting and fun here to go watch the “voice” and pack my clothes for a two week hunting trip, than here watering a dead stump (no offense) 

As this forum is.. aftetall for atheists but love to chat.. but do need to pack fellas


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 7, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I believe there is a higher power. I don't believe we are anywhere near understanding it. I don't think the Hebrews 2000 years ago did either.


That's (sort of) my attitude. I believe that there _could be _a higher power but no current religion - 2000 years old or 20 years old - has a lock on "the truth". Science is so far the best method of at least trying to find the truth but also realizing that we can only find "the best truth" so far within our current understanding without any preset cultural or religious agenda.

For example, let's say - for simplicity's sake - that there are five major religions. All five religions claim their way is "the truth" and the others are false or mistaken in various ways. All five religions have different worldviews and interpret things through a different lens.
But there is only one law of gravity. There is only one reality but many opinions. The bowling ball will drop from the tower at X feet per second no matter who drops it, and that speed will never ever change and anybody who claims they can change it is wrong and will always be wrong.


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## Spotlite (Nov 7, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> A little axious and quick to find fault or back me in corner when you have failed to read and understand the simple scentific items I have presented..
> go slow, take a deep breath..  look at the items of science and prophesies I noted… a few of hundreds… don’t u back peddle once u read and attempt to comprehend





kmh1031 said:


> Did u not understand my post?
> Please go back and read again… yes, written by man but inspired of god…
> Slow down… read the post
> 2Tim 3:16
> All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,


I’m not sure I follow you. I don’t recall finding fault with you.

I too, believe that all scripture is inspired by God. I have no reason to find fault with you.

Before you get too fired up, go back and read my post ; pay special attention to who I quoted, and who they quoted.

I’m sure we can all take a lesson from being “anxious”


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 7, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Did u not understand my post?
> Please go back and read again… yes, written by man but inspired of god…
> Slow down… read the post
> 2Tim 3:16
> All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,


And? So the bible itself tells you that what is in the bible is true, accurate, inspired, etc? Wouldn't every book that is presented as non-fiction make the same claim? Have you ever read a non-fiction book that says "don't believe everything in this book"? I don't remember ever reading that. I would like to see proof that any claim of any religion is "inspired by god" but since there are many religions making similar claims (supernatural guidance & wisdom) either all religions developed so far are not inspired by god or there are multiple gods/multiple realities. Which is more likely?


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## kmh1031 (Nov 7, 2022)

So true… one way, one religion today, one true one… 
All one has to do is use the “litmus test” the Bible and Jesus laid out for the true religion and overlay it to all the others.. 

Jesus knew “oppressive wolves” would enter and try to change the teachings and beliefs… and they did
False religions.. celebrate Pagan holidays, involved in govts, no love, do not teach about gods kingdom ( in heaven AND on earth) the solution to man’s issues 
False teachings about the dead and where they are, the false teaching about a burning ****. And so much more.. 
worlds religions, Christianity also has been a disgrace to god and has mislead billions.
In fact revelation shows that Babylon the great is the world empire of false religion who has committed adultery with the nations/govts of the world… and she has… look at how involved they are with govts.

Soon the worldly govts will turn on all the religions… as foretold in Revelation..
And… more!


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## kmh1031 (Nov 7, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I’m not sure I follow you. I don’t recall finding fault with you.
> 
> I too, believe that all scripture is inspired by God. I have no reason to find fault with you.
> 
> ...


Perhaps I did misread ur post, and for that I am truly sorry, thanks for the clarification


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## The Original Rooster (Nov 7, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I believe there is a higher power. I don't believe we are anywhere near understanding it. I don't think the Hebrews 2000 years ago did either.


Unrelated to the topic of this thread but do you think this higher power has spoken to man in the past and/or will in the future? Just curious as to your thoughts.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 7, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> So true… one way, one religion today, one true one…
> All one has to do is use the “litmus test” the Bible and Jesus laid out for the true religion and overlay it to all the others..
> 
> Jesus knew “oppressive wolves” would enter and try to change the teachings and beliefs… and they did
> ...


You do realize that the "litmus test" is only applicable to the believers of the one book written about Jesus, right? And that book can be - and has been - interpreted six ways from Sunday. And many texts/stories about Jesus/god were not included in the final canon of the bible until HUNDREDS of years after Jesus death. Do you trust the "church traditions" and church leaders at the time 100 percent? Something to think about!


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 7, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Unrelated to the topic of this thread but do you think this higher power has spoken to man in the past and/or will in the future? Just curious as to your thoughts.


Honestly, I don't know. I think it probably reveals itself to people, but I don't even begin to pretend to understand it, or act like I know what it wants, does, or have all the answers. I don't think any organized religion understands it either.


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## kmh1031 (Nov 7, 2022)

Like I said…. Use the biblical litmus test… to find the true religion… 
Yes interpreted many ways… but only 1 way, one true religion as in Jesus day… 
Not all roads lead to NY etc.. 
As the scripture says, 
“U shall know the truth and the truth shall set u free” 
Meaning free from slavery of false religion and it’s teachings which is the root of many of the worlds issues and problems. 
Now..
Backing up… anyone here who has 1 iota of interest on seeing the Bible truths, the hundreds of prophesies that have come true and are yet to come true.. may interest even the staunch atheist.. 
Yep


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## bullethead (Nov 7, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> The Original Rooster said:
> 
> 
> > Unrelated to the topic of this thread but do you think this higher power has spoken to man in the past and/or will in the future? Just curious as to your thoughts.


I know the question wasn't directed at me but I am going to throw my hat in the ring...
I personally do not belive that a higher power is anything human like or cares what happens to humans or any other species or place. I don't think that the power is necessarily a Who more than a What. I think the higher power is an unforseen force that through whatever actions that sparked the start of this Universe as we know it does not have a plan or a care but is the start of the available matter that has and is constantly changed and formed which allows things to exist for periods when the time and conditions allow it. I believe that through our existence we as humans try to understand it in our terms and in our ways which are probably nothing close to what it actually is.
If I am supposed to "know" it I am open 100% to be contacted in a way that only an intelligent being worthy of being called God would know exactly how and what way to contact me so there is no doubt.
If not I am 100% fine saying that I really don't know and I am not going to play spin the God and try to choose one that I think gives me the best chance at post death eternal every day is the best day life and everyone that doesn't believe like I do will suffer.
We have a short span at it if we all live to be a healthy 100yrs. I cannot worry and waste my time about what might be. I want to enjoy what is. For whatever type or version of a God is responsible for me being here I am thankful. Energy and non conscious or Human like with krazy Einstein hair. I don't care. I don't know it. I don't speak for it. I am just going to do my part as me being me the best I can for as long as I can.


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## WaltL1 (Nov 8, 2022)

The same old same old.....


> Like I said…. Use the biblical litmus test… to find the true religion…
> Yes interpreted many ways… but only 1 way, one true religion as in Jesus day…


Use what the religion I believe in says to prove the thousands of other religions and gods are false.


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## kmh1031 (Nov 8, 2022)

Same ole same ole…. 
Proverbs 12:15 
Proverbs 1:7
Great scriptures


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## Spotlite (Nov 8, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Same ole same ole….
> Proverbs 12:15
> Proverbs 1:7
> Great scriptures


If it helps…….”same old same old” just because the Bible says so……..the Bible means no more to a non believer than the Quran means to the Christian. 


Keep in mind that Christians trying to convince non believers that the God of the Bible is the one true God is equivalent to the Muslims trying to convince Christians that Allah is the one true god. It’s going to take more than Bible verses to do either.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 8, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Like I said…. Use the biblical litmus test… to find the true religion…
> Yes interpreted many ways… but only 1 way, one true religion as in Jesus day…
> Not all roads lead to NY etc..
> As the scripture says,
> ...


No doubt the bible has quite a few prophecies that can be interpreted as true by people who already believe to some degree and want their beliefs confirmed. Also if I were writing a sequel/part 2 (the New Testament) and had access to the part 1(the Old Testament) I would include "fulfilled prophesies" by referencing some Old Testament prophecy. I would also throw out every "miss" and keep only the "hits" concerning prophesy when I was finalizing the New Testament biblical canon via "Church Tradition" in the 4th Century.


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## WaltL1 (Nov 8, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> If it helps…….”same old same old” just because the Bible says so……..the Bible means no more to a non believer than the Quran means to the Christian.
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that Christians trying to convince non believers that the God of the Bible is the one true God is equivalent to the Muslims trying to convince Christians that Allah is the one true god. It’s going to take more than Bible verses to do either.





> the Bible means no more to a non believer than the Quran means to the Christian.


Slight correction -
I recognize the importance of the Bible as it relates to Christianity. Same as I recognize the importance of any religion's texts as it relates to their beliefs.
But lets be honest - it doesnt "prove" any other religious beliefs as false.
Its just what Christians believe. A Christian can claim Christianity as the one true religion. And it is - to a Christian.
But thats as far as it goes.
I


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## WaltL1 (Nov 8, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> No doubt the bible has quite a few prophecies that can be interpreted as true by people who already believe to some degree and want their beliefs confirmed. Also if I were writing a sequel/part 2 (the New Testament) and had access to the part 1(the Old Testament) I would include "fulfilled prophesies" by referencing some Old Testament prophecy. I would also throw out every "miss" and keep only the "hits" concerning prophesy when I was finalizing the New Testament biblical canon via "Church Tradition" in the 4th Century.


And add in from KMH's post -


> and are yet to come true


Shows the mentality of "oh they are all true, even the ones that arent true yet". In other words -


> interpreted as true by people who already believe to some degree and want their beliefs confirmed


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## Spotlite (Nov 8, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Slight correction -
> I recognize the importance of the Bible as it relates to Christianity. Same as I recognize the importance of any religion's texts as it relates to their beliefs.
> But lets be honest - it doesnt "prove" any other religious beliefs as false.
> Its just what Christians believe. A Christian can claim Christianity as the one true religion. And it is - to a Christian.
> ...


Good point, Walt.


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## WaltL1 (Nov 8, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Good point, Walt.


Just wanted to make it clear that I dont view the Bible as some worthless collection of stupid stories.
Its importance is undeniable.
But to claim it somehow proves all other beliefs as false is just going too far for anybody other than a Christian.


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## Spotlite (Nov 8, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Just wanted to make it clear that I dont view the Bible as some worthless collection of stupid stories.
> Its importance is undeniable.
> But to claim it somehow proves all other beliefs as false is just going too far for anybody other than a Christian.


10-4 I was leaning more towards “it’s facts” because scripture says so, but it needed ti be more clear.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 8, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Not wrong, just incomplete for many subjects. Yes we may be totally wrong on some things, or at least "in the ballpark" on others. But if science is being honest then we should be constantly proving ourselves wrong once new facts & evidence are revealed. New testing technologies also advance science and disprove inaccurate/wrong ideas.


Most are moving science into the position of religion nowadays. No room for questions.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 8, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> That's (sort of) my attitude. I believe that there _could be _a higher power but no current religion - 2000 years old or 20 years old - has a lock on "the truth". Science is so far the best method of at least trying to find the truth but also realizing that we can only find "the best truth" so far within our current understanding without any preset cultural or religious agenda.
> 
> For example, let's say - for simplicity's sake - that there are five major religions. All five religions claim their way is "the truth" and the others are false or mistaken in various ways. All five religions have different worldviews and interpret things through a different lens.
> But there is only one law of gravity. There is only one reality but many opinions. The bowling ball will drop from the tower at X feet per second no matter who drops it, and that speed will never ever change and anybody who claims they can change it is wrong and will always be wrong.


What if there is more than one answer?


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## WaltL1 (Nov 8, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Most are moving science into the position of religion nowadays. No room for questions.


I think only people who dont really understand what science is do that ^
Without questions science comes to a dead stop.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 8, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I think only people who dont really understand what science is do that ^
> Without questions science comes to a dead stop.


I agree, but there seems to be a whole lotta people and scientists who dont really understand what science is walking around right now. When you hear terms like science denier being used a bunch then modern science dont feel so sciencey


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## WaltL1 (Nov 8, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Same ole same ole….
> Proverbs 12:15
> Proverbs 1:7
> Great scriptures


With all due respect.... you are accomplishing exactly zip, zero, nada by throwing scripture at us. While we certainly appreciate your participation, if you want to have any effect on the conversation that includes non-believers, you are going to have to find a different form of apologetics.
Consider this - the majority of us were once believers. We've read the Bible.
Scripture didnt stop us from walking away. Not going to have much effect now.


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## WaltL1 (Nov 8, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I agree, but there seems to be a whole lotta people and scientists who dont really understand what science is walking around right now. When you hear terms like science denier being used a bunch then modern science dont feel so sciencey


I think we would have to drill down on what the definition of "science deniers" is.
Some folks deny science because it doesnt point to a god.
On the flip side, some folks dont understand science, in most cases, is an ongoing process.
In other cases, some folks take what science says today as being done and settled. Sometimes it is and sometimes it aint.
Just in my lifetime, butter has been good for you, bad for you, good for you, bad for you..........


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## kmh1031 (Nov 8, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> If it helps…….”same old same old” just because the Bible says so……..the Bible means no more to a non believer than the Quran means to the Christian.
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that Christians trying to convince non believers that the God of the Bible is the one true God is equivalent to the Muslims trying to convince Christians that Allah is the one true god. It’s going to take more than Bible verses to do either.


Yep… I get it and understand… but yet… at some point something may register 
The world conditions, getting worse as Bible prophesied, something changes in their life family or personal… and they may want more than just a belief that their is no superior being, or more answers than they have now: why do these things happen, what does the future hold.. will we always grow old and die… Etc


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 8, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I think we would have to drill down on what the definition of "science deniers" is.
> Some folks deny science because it doesnt point to a god.
> On the flip side, some folks dont understand science, in most cases, is an ongoing process.
> In other cases, some folks take what science says today as being done and settled. Sometimes it is and sometimes it aint.
> Just in my lifetime, butter has been good for you, bad for you, good for you, bad for you..........


Science should never be done and settled. I think it is more important to see who theses science denier accusations are being pointed at. In the modern era is seems to be folks asking questions.


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## kmh1031 (Nov 8, 2022)

WaltL 
Thanks and I know exactly whlat you mean… as I talk to atheists at work.
However over time they become amazed, or interested how accurate the Bible is..how the principals in the Bible are timely for our day related to family, children, marriage, honesty, work etc.
At least acknowledge the fact that the Bible has got it right for the times we live in.. and the world conditions.. accurately and have agreed on some issues of science that the Bible talks about, although written 4500+ years ago 
How the Bible and its true teachings are very different than what Christendom and other religions proclaim, and teach.. 

And lastly… if you went to church..came out of if regardless of religion, I applaud you as many have because of the lack of Bible teaching, or teachings contrary to the Bible 
Anyway… have a good day!


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## WaltL1 (Nov 8, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Yep… I get it and understand… but yet… at some point something may register
> The world conditions, getting worse as Bible prophesied, something changes in their life family or personal… and they may want more than just a belief that their is no superior being, or more answers than they have now: why do these things happen, what does the future hold.. will we always grow old and die… Etc


I can understand you're reasoning there ^
However, those are all changes of mind based off emotions. I cant say this for a fact but I dont think the nonbelievers here are going to change their mind based on emotions. Facts yes, emotions probably not.
But it does happen. We've had a nonbeliever here become a believer based on emotional reasons.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 8, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Most are moving science into the position of religion nowadays. No room for questions.


Yes that is happening and it's wrong no matter which political "side" is doing it. Granted some data is open to interpretation because it's part of a complicated system, but to say your interpretation is gospel is just begging to bite you in the backside eventually. But when you stop asking questions then your science turns into religion - and the IMHO the world is already jam-packed with religion - we don't need yet another one.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 8, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> What if there is more than one answer?


Then each differing answer needs to explain their testing procedures & conditions. They need to "show their work". That said there may be an explanation as to why their answers varied that others have overlooked. Any anomaly should be investigated by subject matter experts no matter what endeavor we are undertaking in life.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 8, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Yep… I get it and understand… but yet… at some point something may register
> The world conditions, getting worse as Bible prophesied, something changes in their life family or personal… and they may want more than just a belief that their is no superior being, or more answers than they have now: why do these things happen, what does the future hold.. will we always grow old and die… Etc



When we say "the world is getting worse" it's really a matter of perspective.
To_ some _people - and in _some_ ways the world is getting better! This perspective can be on an individual or a group or a combination of the two. 
Also your preconceived notions can influence your interpretation. 
For example: if you believe the biblical prophecy that the world conditions are getting progressively worse, then you will interpret every major event or situation as proof that the bible was right, things are getting worse - from your perspective. Somewhere on this planet there are individuals & religions who might interpret what you consider a negative situation as a positive one. Basically we see things how we want them to be, which may be as things really are or they may not be. NOBODY knows what the future holds - the universe is unfolding in real time as far as we can tell.


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## WaltL1 (Nov 8, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> When we say "the world is getting worse" it's really a matter of perspective.
> To_ some _people - and in _some_ ways the world is getting better! This perspective can be on an individual or a group or a combination of the two.
> Also your preconceived notions can influence your interpretation.
> For example: if you believe the biblical prophecy that the world conditions are getting progressively worse, then you will interpret every major event or situation as proof that the bible was right, things are getting worse - from your perspective. Somewhere on this planet there are individuals & religions who might interpret what you consider a negative situation as a positive one. Basically we see things how we want them to be, which may be as things really are or they may not be. NOBODY knows what the future holds - the universe is unfolding in real time as far as we can tell.


Its also worth noting the vast majority of the world is religious.
Yet it supposedly is getting worse.
Maybe religion is the problem?


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## Madman (Nov 8, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> There are still some primitive tribes in the world, the kind who throw wooden spears at helicopters.  If some cataclysmic event were going to occur like an asteroid strike that will kill everything on the planet but we figured put how to bring some people to a colony in space or on Mars, do we take some of the primitives?
> 
> Or
> 
> When we realize the asteroid is coming and we start making plans for our escape, do we contact the primitives and try to get them up to speed, maybe then ask them if they wanna go?


Ambush,

I'll give my ticket to take to them.  

Seriously, the "intellectuals" would not allow that.  You know, all the brainiacs who road Epsteins plane to island, the ones who pushed the jab.  they wouldn't allow the great unwashed on the boat.  Most likely not even you and me.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 8, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Its also worth noting the vast majority of the world is religious.
> Yet it supposedly is getting worse.
> Maybe religion is the problem?


Good point. Maybe they jinxed it by trying to prophesize! 

Maybe god will "smite" them for that. Say what you will, god seems to enjoy a good smiting!


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 8, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> When we say "the world is getting worse" it's really a matter of perspective.
> To_ some _people - and in _some_ ways the world is getting better! This perspective can be on an individual or a group or a combination of the two.
> Also your preconceived notions can influence your interpretation.
> For example: if you believe the biblical prophecy that the world conditions are getting progressively worse, then you will interpret every major event or situation as proof that the bible was right, things are getting worse - from your perspective. Somewhere on this planet there are individuals & religions who might interpret what you consider a negative situation as a positive one. Basically we see things how we want them to be, which may be as things really are or they may not be. NOBODY knows what the future holds - the universe is unfolding in real time as far as we can tell.


I bet a few of those fellers living back in Medieval Europe when the black death was ravaging everybody, and the rest of the folks were chopping one another up with swords, and folks were living on a bowl of porridge a day probably wouldn't mind switching places with us in this "worse" present-day world.  Or those Cambodian folks back in the 70s. Or any number of other things I could note that are undeniably much worse than what we are facing today.


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## kmh1031 (Nov 8, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Its also worth noting the vast majority of the world is religious.
> Yet it supposedly is getting worse.
> Maybe religion is the problem?


WaltL1 false religion and it’s blessing of wars, genocides, scaring their parishioners of “HILL” celebrating pagan holidays, involvement in worldly govts and more are a large cause for the problems in the world.. 

that is why revelation calls them all “ Babylon the great” which is the world empire of False Religion” who committed adultery with nations of earth and the killer of the true prophets, and gods people. 
U will be happy to know… that the prophesy in Revelation also shows… God will put it in the hearts of worldly govts… to destroy Babylon, or all the false religions of the world soon..!
When it happens.. remember this thread… as it also foretold what would come next…


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 8, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> WaltL1 false religion and it’s blessing of wars, genocides, scaring their parishioners of “HILL” celebrating pagan holidays, involvement in worldly govts and more are a large cause for the problems in the world..
> 
> that is why revelation calls them all “ Babylon the great” which is the world empire of False Religion” who committed adultery with nations of earth and the killer of the true prophets, and gods people.
> U will be happy to know… that the prophesy in Revelation also shows… God will put it in the hearts of worldly govts… to destroy Babylon, or all the false religions of the world soon..!
> When it happens.. remember this thread… as it also foretold what would come next…


well.....good luck with all that, I guess!


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## kmh1031 (Nov 8, 2022)

It will happen....and remember...you heard it FIRST here!

Well...although no one here believes in the bible, and interesting read is Revelation 17: 16 - 18

And the ten horns that you saw and the wild beast, (*worldy govts*) these will hate the prostitute (*babylon the great, worldy false religions who committed fornication with the wild beast, govts)* and will make her devastated and naked, and they will eat up her flesh and completely burn her with fire *(false religion destroyed by all worldy govts*) 

*17 **For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes*, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished. *18 *And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

Note:  Babylon the great represents the world empire of false religion, that has had power over the beast,, worldy govts....for thousands of years, they will in turn destroy her as God will put it in their hearts/minds to do so.

Called babylon the great as the ancient city of Babylon was the epicenter for many religions, and false teachings...thus Christendom, and all other false religions on earth represent Babylon the great...

And you will agree here..that religion has been involved with all govts over time, and the root of many of mans issues. false religion that is...not the true teaching of the bible...

Also, note the warning at *Revelation 18:4*. 
Get out of her, *my people*, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5. For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind

God also see that false religion is the source of many of mans woes.
this scripture shows two things. God has a "people of his own" and they are NOT part of this group, that is in Babylon the great (all worldy religions)

AND her sins...god has called her into account due to her sins...which are many, as spoken her, and well known....

So, false religon according to these verses will be destroyed by the worldly govts, the same ones she has committed fornication with (figuratively)

Nice read, ! and explanation of the near future...


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 8, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> It will happen....and remember...you heard it FIRST here!
> 
> Well...although no one here believes in the bible, and interesting read is Revelation 17: 16 - 18
> 
> ...


In the spring in the morning should he offer (the beast) with a black neck to Agni; in the summer at midday (the beast) of different colours to Indra; in the autumn in the after noon the white (beast) to Brhaspati. These are the brilliances of the sun, in the spring in the morning, in the summer at midday, in the autumn in the afternoon; verily he wins whatever brilliances there are [5]. They are offered in the course of the year; the year is the giver of splendour; verily the year gives him splendour; he becomes resplendent. They are (beasts) with young; the foetus is power; verily he bestows power upon him. He who being master of uttering speech cannot speak properly should offer a ewe to Sarasvati; Sarasvati is speech; verily he has recourse to Sarasvati with her own share, she bestows on him [6] speech, and he becomes an utterer of speech. Its teeth are complete; therefore men utter speech whole. He who is long ill should offer to Agni (a beast) with black neck, and a brown (beast) to Soma; the body of him whose illness is long goes to Agni, the sap to Soma; verily he ransoms from Agni his body, from Soma his sap, and even if his life is gone, yet he lives. He who desires offspring should offer to Soma a brown (beast), and to Agni one with a black neck; Soma [7] is the depositor of seed, Agni the producer of offspring; verily Soma deposits seed for him, Agni produces offspring; he obtains offspring. The Brahman who despite study does not win fame should offer to Agni (a beast) with a black neck, and to Soma a brown (one); in that (the beast) is offered to Agni, thereby he places brilliance in him; in that (the beast) is offered to Soma, thereby (be places) splendour. The one with a black neck is for Agni; verily he drives away the darkness from him: it is white [8]; verily he bestows brilliance on him. There is a brown one for Soma; verily he bestows splendour and radiance on him. He who has a dispute for a Purohitaship should offer (a beast) with a black neck to Agni, a brown one to Soma, and one with a black neck to Agni; the Brahman is connected with Agni, the prince with Soma; on either side of (the beast) for Soma there is one for Agni; verily with brilliance, with the Brahman, he seizes on either side the kingdom, and forthwith appropriates it; they choose him as Purohita.

ii. 1. 3.​The gods and the Asuras strove for these worlds; Visnu saw this dwarf, he offered it to its own deity; then he conquered these worlds. One who is engaged in a struggle should offer a dwarf (beast) to Visnu; then he becomes Visnu and conquers these worlds. He should offer on an uneven (place), for these worlds are uneven as it were; (verily it serves) for prosperity. He who is engaged in a contest should offer (a beast) with a spot on its forehead and horns bent forward to Indra, the angry, the wise [1]. By power (indriy ), by anger, by wisdom, one wins a contest. Verily he has recourse to Indra, the angry, the wise, with his own share; verily he bestows on him power, anger, wisdom; he wins that contest. He who desires a village should offer (a beast) with dappled thighs to Indra with the Maruts. Verily he has recourse to Indra with the Maruts with his own share; verily he subdues his relatives to him; he becomes possessed of a village. In that it is an ox [2], it is Indra's; in that it is dappled, it is of the Maruts, for pros perity. It has dappled thighs behind; verily he makes the folk dependent on him. He who desires food should offer a brown (beast) to Soma; food is connected with Soma; verily he has recourse to Soma with his own share; he bestows food on him; verily he becomes an eater of food. It is brown; that is the colour of food; (verily it serves) for prosperity. He who being meet for kingship obtains not a kingdom should offer a brown (beast) to Soma [3]; the kingdom is connected with Soma; verily he has recourse to Soma with his own share; Soma bestows on him a kingdom; the kingdom comes to him. It is brown, that is the colour of Soma; (verily it serves) for prosperity. He whose prosperity is gone and who desires support should offer (a beast) with a spot on the forehead and horns bent forward to Indra, the conqueror of Vrtra; verily he overcomes the evil foe and attains support. 'He who is seized by evil should offer (a beast) with a spot on the forehead and horns bent forward to Indra, the overcomer of enemies [4]; the enemy is the evil; verily he has recourse to Indra, the overcomer of enemies with his own share, and he drives away from him the enemy, the evil. He who being meet for kingship obtains not a kingdom should offer (a beast) with a spot on the forehead and horns bent forward to Indra of the thunderbolt. Verily he has recourse to Indra of the thunderbolt with his own share; he bestows his thunderbolt on him, the bolt kindles him for prosperity, the kingdom comes to him. It has a spot on its forehead and horns bent for ward, that is the shape of the bolt, (and so it serves) for prosperity.


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## The Original Rooster (Nov 8, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> In the spring in the morning should he offer (the beast) with a black neck to Agni; in the summer at midday (the beast) of different colours to Indra; in the autumn in the after noon the white (beast) to Brhaspati. These are the brilliances of the sun, in the spring in the morning, in the summer at midday, in the autumn in the afternoon; verily he wins whatever brilliances there are [5]. They are offered in the course of the year; the year is the giver of splendour; verily the year gives him splendour; he becomes resplendent. They are (beasts) with young; the foetus is power; verily he bestows power upon him. He who being master of uttering speech cannot speak properly should offer a ewe to Sarasvati; Sarasvati is speech; verily he has recourse to Sarasvati with her own share, she bestows on him [6] speech, and he becomes an utterer of speech. Its teeth are complete; therefore men utter speech whole. He who is long ill should offer to Agni (a beast) with black neck, and a brown (beast) to Soma; the body of him whose illness is long goes to Agni, the sap to Soma; verily he ransoms from Agni his body, from Soma his sap, and even if his life is gone, yet he lives. He who desires offspring should offer to Soma a brown (beast), and to Agni one with a black neck; Soma [7] is the depositor of seed, Agni the producer of offspring; verily Soma deposits seed for him, Agni produces offspring; he obtains offspring. The Brahman who despite study does not win fame should offer to Agni (a beast) with a black neck, and to Soma a brown (one); in that (the beast) is offered to Agni, thereby he places brilliance in him; in that (the beast) is offered to Soma, thereby (be places) splendour. The one with a black neck is for Agni; verily he drives away the darkness from him: it is white [8]; verily he bestows brilliance on him. There is a brown one for Soma; verily he bestows splendour and radiance on him. He who has a dispute for a Purohitaship should offer (a beast) with a black neck to Agni, a brown one to Soma, and one with a black neck to Agni; the Brahman is connected with Agni, the prince with Soma; on either side of (the beast) for Soma there is one for Agni; verily with brilliance, with the Brahman, he seizes on either side the kingdom, and forthwith appropriates it; they choose him as Purohita.
> 
> ii. 1. 3.​The gods and the Asuras strove for these worlds; Visnu saw this dwarf, he offered it to its own deity; then he conquered these worlds. One who is engaged in a struggle should offer a dwarf (beast) to Visnu; then he becomes Visnu and conquers these worlds. He should offer on an uneven (place), for these worlds are uneven as it were; (verily it serves) for prosperity. He who is engaged in a contest should offer (a beast) with a spot on its forehead and horns bent forward to Indra, the angry, the wise [1]. By power (indriy ), by anger, by wisdom, one wins a contest. Verily he has recourse to Indra, the angry, the wise, with his own share; verily he bestows on him power, anger, wisdom; he wins that contest. He who desires a village should offer (a beast) with dappled thighs to Indra with the Maruts. Verily he has recourse to Indra with the Maruts with his own share; verily he subdues his relatives to him; he becomes possessed of a village. In that it is an ox [2], it is Indra's; in that it is dappled, it is of the Maruts, for pros perity. It has dappled thighs behind; verily he makes the folk dependent on him. He who desires food should offer a brown (beast) to Soma; food is connected with Soma; verily he has recourse to Soma with his own share; he bestows food on him; verily he becomes an eater of food. It is brown; that is the colour of food; (verily it serves) for prosperity. He who being meet for kingship obtains not a kingdom should offer a brown (beast) to Soma [3]; the kingdom is connected with Soma; verily he has recourse to Soma with his own share; Soma bestows on him a kingdom; the kingdom comes to him. It is brown, that is the colour of Soma; (verily it serves) for prosperity. He whose prosperity is gone and who desires support should offer (a beast) with a spot on the forehead and horns bent forward to Indra, the conqueror of Vrtra; verily he overcomes the evil foe and attains support. 'He who is seized by evil should offer (a beast) with a spot on the forehead and horns bent forward to Indra, the overcomer of enemies [4]; the enemy is the evil; verily he has recourse to Indra, the overcomer of enemies with his own share, and he drives away from him the enemy, the evil. He who being meet for kingship obtains not a kingdom should offer (a beast) with a spot on the forehead and horns bent forward to Indra of the thunderbolt. Verily he has recourse to Indra of the thunderbolt with his own share; he bestows his thunderbolt on him, the bolt kindles him for prosperity, the kingdom comes to him. It has a spot on its forehead and horns bent for ward, that is the shape of the bolt, (and so it serves) for prosperity.


Israel, is that you?


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## The Original Rooster (Nov 8, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Its also worth noting the vast majority of the world is religious.
> Yet it supposedly is getting worse.
> Maybe religion is the problem?


If it wasn’t religion it’d just be something else or 3 something else’s.


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## kmh1031 (Nov 8, 2022)

I know, I know...
but 2 Tim 3:1-5 certainly is interesting for our day....as a "composite sign"


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 8, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Israel, is that you?




Nope, that is Hindu scripture taken from one of their holy books, which will have the same level of attention and belief and meaning to him as the scripture he keeps incessantly typing post after post will have on the people he is trying to argue with, and thinks posting scripture they don't believe will convince them to agree with him.

Other peeps gots bibles, too, it ain't just for Hebrews any more.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 8, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> In the spring in the morning should he offer (the beast) with a black neck to Agni; in the summer at midday (the beast) of different colours to Indra; in the autumn in the after noon the white (beast) to Brhaspati. These are the brilliances of the sun, in the spring in the morning, in the summer at midday, in the autumn in the afternoon; verily he wins whatever brilliances there are [5]. They are offered in the course of the year; the year is the giver of splendour; verily the year gives him splendour; he becomes resplendent. They are (beasts) with young; the foetus is power; verily he bestows power upon him. He who being master of uttering speech cannot speak properly should offer a ewe to Sarasvati; Sarasvati is speech; verily he has recourse to Sarasvati with her own share, she bestows on him [6] speech, and he becomes an utterer of speech. Its teeth are complete; therefore men utter speech whole. He who is long ill should offer to Agni (a beast) with black neck, and a brown (beast) to Soma; the body of him whose illness is long goes to Agni, the sap to Soma; verily he ransoms from Agni his body, from Soma his sap, and even if his life is gone, yet he lives. He who desires offspring should offer to Soma a brown (beast), and to Agni one with a black neck; Soma [7] is the depositor of seed, Agni the producer of offspring; verily Soma deposits seed for him, Agni produces offspring; he obtains offspring. The Brahman who despite study does not win fame should offer to Agni (a beast) with a black neck, and to Soma a brown (one); in that (the beast) is offered to Agni, thereby he places brilliance in him; in that (the beast) is offered to Soma, thereby (be places) splendour. The one with a black neck is for Agni; verily he drives away the darkness from him: it is white [8]; verily he bestows brilliance on him. There is a brown one for Soma; verily he bestows splendour and radiance on him. He who has a dispute for a Purohitaship should offer (a beast) with a black neck to Agni, a brown one to Soma, and one with a black neck to Agni; the Brahman is connected with Agni, the prince with Soma; on either side of (the beast) for Soma there is one for Agni; verily with brilliance, with the Brahman, he seizes on either side the kingdom, and forthwith appropriates it; they choose him as Purohita.
> 
> ii. 1. 3.​The gods and the Asuras strove for these worlds; Visnu saw this dwarf, he offered it to its own deity; then he conquered these worlds. One who is engaged in a struggle should offer a dwarf (beast) to Visnu; then he becomes Visnu and conquers these worlds. He should offer on an uneven (place), for these worlds are uneven as it were; (verily it serves) for prosperity. He who is engaged in a contest should offer (a beast) with a spot on its forehead and horns bent forward to Indra, the angry, the wise [1]. By power (indriy ), by anger, by wisdom, one wins a contest. Verily he has recourse to Indra, the angry, the wise, with his own share; verily he bestows on him power, anger, wisdom; he wins that contest. He who desires a village should offer (a beast) with dappled thighs to Indra with the Maruts. Verily he has recourse to Indra with the Maruts with his own share; verily he subdues his relatives to him; he becomes possessed of a village. In that it is an ox [2], it is Indra's; in that it is dappled, it is of the Maruts, for pros perity. It has dappled thighs behind; verily he makes the folk dependent on him. He who desires food should offer a brown (beast) to Soma; food is connected with Soma; verily he has recourse to Soma with his own share; he bestows food on him; verily he becomes an eater of food. It is brown; that is the colour of food; (verily it serves) for prosperity. He who being meet for kingship obtains not a kingdom should offer a brown (beast) to Soma [3]; the kingdom is connected with Soma; verily he has recourse to Soma with his own share; Soma bestows on him a kingdom; the kingdom comes to him. It is brown, that is the colour of Soma; (verily it serves) for prosperity. He whose prosperity is gone and who desires support should offer (a beast) with a spot on the forehead and horns bent forward to Indra, the conqueror of Vrtra; verily he overcomes the evil foe and attains support. 'He who is seized by evil should offer (a beast) with a spot on the forehead and horns bent forward to Indra, the overcomer of enemies [4]; the enemy is the evil; verily he has recourse to Indra, the overcomer of enemies with his own share, and he drives away from him the enemy, the evil. He who being meet for kingship obtains not a kingdom should offer (a beast) with a spot on the forehead and horns bent forward to Indra of the thunderbolt. Verily he has recourse to Indra of the thunderbolt with his own share; he bestows his thunderbolt on him, the bolt kindles him for prosperity, the kingdom comes to him. It has a spot on its forehead and horns bent for ward, that is the shape of the bolt, (and so it serves) for prosperity.


that sounds totally made up.  But that Revelation stuff about the beast, prostitutes, and flesh-eating sounds totally legit!


----------



## kmh1031 (Nov 8, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Nope, that is Hindu scripture taken from one of their holy books, which will have the same level of attention and belief and meaning to him as the scripture he keeps incessantly typing post after post will have on the people he is trying to argue with, and thinks posting scripture they don't believe will convince them to agree with him.
> 
> Other peeps gots bibles, too, it ain't just for Hebrews any more.


NCH hillbilly…. I get it, not for u… and I was going to move on…. But interestingly… and may be surprising to u… I have 1 private message from late yesterday evening and 2 from today.. that have asked more questions… so not for u… I get it… but very interesting and positive conversations behind the scenes…


----------



## WaltL1 (Nov 8, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> If it wasn’t religion it’d just be something else or 3 something else’s.


I can agree with that.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 9, 2022)

Israel said:


> Gotta admit Ambush, joined the conversation a bit downstream and only just read the OP now. (well a few moments ago)
> 
> Without reading through each page (which I at first [now] determined to do to see if any smelled what you were cooking) got only as far as you could bear (and I could bear with you) not being seen in the ether when you started to feed the crumbs.
> 
> ...



Interesting.  I haven't looked at this thread in a while.  I see it got new legs. I actually posed the question literally, but I'm glad you have revealed a useful metaphor.  I'll think about it and see if I have anything else to contribute to the conversation.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 9, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> If it wasn’t religion it’d just be something else or 3 something else’s.



I remember when "Spiritual" was to take the the place of "Religious".  I also remember that allot of "Spirituality" came with the trappings of religion in the form of talismans and rituals, some lifted from other religious traditions.  It's obvious that we're built to operate under some system.

"Brondo.  It's what plants crave".


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 9, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Good point. Maybe they jinxed it by trying to prophesize!
> 
> Maybe god will "smite" them for that. Say what you will, god seems to enjoy a good smiting!



I think that certainly had something to do with the rejection of it.  Assigning someone the power of Divine Revelation is probably a power whose tendency for abuse is too great.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Nov 9, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I remember when "Spiritual" was to take the the place of "Religious".  I also remember that allot of "Spirituality" came with the trappings of religion in the form of talismans and rituals, some lifted from other religious traditions.  It's obvious that we're built to operate under some system.
> 
> "Brondo.  It's what plants crave".


"It's got electrolytes!"
There's an episode of South Park out there where there is no Religion in the future so the different factions go to war over which version of science is correct.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 9, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> "It's got electrolytes!"
> There's an episode of South Park out there where there is no Religion in the future so the different factions go to war over which version of science is correct.


----------



## hummerpoo (Nov 9, 2022)

Forgive me if I missed it, but have not noticed any recognition of the distinction between "science" and "popular science".

If anyone is interested, go to this link and it might help you get started.








						What are the different writing nuances between popular science writing and scientific writing?
					

Answer: Let me answer a slightly different question: the difference between scientist authors and non-scientists authors when writing about science for a popular non-scientist audience.  In peer-reviewed scientific writing, the author references the writings of only other scientists.  The burden ...




					www.quora.com
				




In the few (certainly less than 15 cases)times that I have read a popular science article that didn't smell right, and search out the scientific research report on which it was supposedly based, I found that when the research report said something like, " Our research indicates the possibility that xxxxx"  followed by a thorough explanation including all the caveats, contextual requirements, assumptions, etc. (I had to find a lexicon of the terms used in the particular scientific discipline); the popular science article stated "Dr. yyyy has shown that xxxxx"


----------



## bullethead (Nov 9, 2022)

hummerpoo said:


> Forgive me if I missed it, but have not noticed any recognition of the distinction between "science" and "popular science".
> 
> If anyone is interested, go to this link and it might help you get started.
> 
> ...


And yet you are an example of why such different caveats, assumptions and contextual requirements work to the best they can by the fact that you use if not rely on those types of findings almost every minute of every single day.


----------



## hummerpoo (Nov 9, 2022)

bullethead said:


> And yet you are an example of why such different caveats, assumptions and contextual requirements work to the best they can by the fact that you use if not rely on those types of findings almost every minute of every single day.


Sorry Bullet, I can't seem to grasp what you are saying.  I must have written poorly.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Nov 9, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I think that certainly had something to do with the rejection of it.  Assigning someone the power of Divine Revelation is probably a power whose tendency for abuse is too great.


I can't disagree because there's too many examples of what you say being true. Scripture does point out that there will be false prophets and ways to recognize them, although I know you and some others don't agree with us referring to scripture as a defense in these discussions. At the same time, those false prophets will point out those same scriptures in an attempt to make themselves look trustworthy. 
Let's face it, people with bad intentions can be tricky whether it's religion, science, politics, or business. If all the villains looked like a red devil with horns, pointed tail, and pitchfork, any idiot could spot them and avoid them.

Long story short, I agree. Everyone should be suspicious of Divine Revelation in any field. That's how we end up with David Koresh's and Bernie Madoff's.


----------



## WaltL1 (Nov 9, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I remember when "Spiritual" was to take the the place of "Religious".  I also remember that allot of "Spirituality" came with the trappings of religion in the form of talismans and rituals, some lifted from other religious traditions.  It's obvious that we're built to operate under some system.
> 
> "Brondo.  It's what plants crave".


To me "Spiritual" and "Religious" in no way can be interchanged. I view them as worlds apart.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Nov 9, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> I can't disagree because there's too many examples of what you say being true. Scripture does point out that there will be false prophets and ways to recognize them, although I know you and some others don't agree with us referring to scripture as a defense in these discussions. At the same time, those false prophets will point out those same scriptures in an attempt to make themselves look trustworthy.
> Let's face it, people with bad intentions can be tricky whether it's religion, science, politics, or business. If all the villains looked like a red devil with horns, pointed tail, and pitchfork, any idiot could spot them and avoid them.
> 
> Long story short, I agree. Everyone should be suspicious of Divine Revelation in any field. That's how we end up with David Koresh's and Bernie Madoff's.


Yet all the people who get caught up in these crazy cults & scams are CERTAIN that all the other systems are wrong, and that the new kid on the block is the REAL DEAL!


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 9, 2022)

Israel said:


> Probably "just great" enough to get into all the trouble needed to discover all the help needed.
> 
> Predator and prey then become "a wash".


If God be with you, who can oppose you?


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 9, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> To me "Spiritual" and "Religious" in no way can be interchanged. I view them as worlds apart.


I still meet people who will say "I'm not religious but spiritual". Close enough.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Nov 9, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Yet all the people who get caught up in these crazy cults & scams are CERTAIN that all the other systems are wrong, and that the new kid on the block is the REAL DEAL!


Yeah, for those folks I can only quote Bill Engvall. Heeeeeere's your sign!


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 9, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Yet all the people who get caught up in these crazy cults & scams are CERTAIN that all the other systems are wrong, and that the new kid on the block is the REAL DEAL!


If given the choice between trying something new that might work better but probably won't and sticking with something old that kind of works what do you choose?


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 9, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> If God be with you, who can oppose you?


That doesn't make sense to me. Theoretically whether god is with you or not, anybody could oppose you, they would just have a more difficult time defeating you.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 9, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> If given the choice between trying something new that might work better but probably won't and sticking with something old that kind of works what do you choose?


Stick with something old that kind of works. If it "kind of works" then it would probably work even better by applying a bit more work, analysis, or tweaking on my part. Generally people try new things because are looking for a shortcut that is no more effective or even inferior to the original thing.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Stick with something old that kind of works. If it "kind of works" then it would probably work even better by applying a bit more work, analysis, or tweaking on my part. Generally people try new things because are looking for a shortcut that is no more effective or even inferior to the original thing.


Like a microwave?


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 10, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Like a microwave?





Israel said:


> I don't know that the _intrigue factor_ can ever be pared away to any extent as to be unconsidered.
> 
> It might not be unreasonable to consider whether (what is commonly esteemed) progress is more attributable to boredom than to boldness.
> 
> ...


"Something there is that doesn't love a wall..." - Israel


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 10, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Like a microwave?


A microwave is a useful tool that can be used as a shortcut, but also as an alternative method of food preparation and could be in some cases the only practical tool for cooking if portability & space are limited, such as military field operations extending a month or so far away from fixed base dining facilities yet still having access to generator powered electricity, but any open, visible flames would be dangerous for various reasons.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> A microwave is a useful tool that can be used as a shortcut, but also as an alternative method of food preparation and could be in some cases the only practical tool for cooking if portability & space are limited, such as military field operations extending a month or so far away from fixed base dining facilities yet still having access to generator powered electricity, but any open, visible flames would be dangerous for various reasons.


Naw suh. A microwave is highly inefficient and does a worse job of cooking that just about any other method. In my opinion it meets the very definition of looking for a new way shortcut that does a worse job.


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## WaltL1 (Nov 10, 2022)

Israel said:


> I don't know that the _intrigue factor_ can ever be pared away to any extent as to be unconsidered.
> 
> It might not be unreasonable to consider whether (what is commonly esteemed) progress is more attributable to boredom than to boldness.
> 
> ...





> I myself enjoy walking that crazy line (as many of my brothers) of boldness to the occasional point of _even having_ pancakes for supper!


Pancakes for supper is awesome! Have them for supper more often than I have them for breakfast! I think that makes us brothers in boldness


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## j_seph (Nov 10, 2022)

660griz said:


> God knows where they are. He's got this. Don't risk getting eaten.


Are you Professing?


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 10, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Naw suh. A microwave is highly inefficient and does a worse job of cooking that just about any other method. In my opinion it meets the very definition of looking for a new way shortcut that does a worse job.


Agree cooking is generally better in a regular stove/oven. But for warming up leftovers I would say a microwave is - for my purposes - a very efficient method. And like I said for specific situations where you don't have a regular stove/oven a microwave is a valid choice.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 10, 2022)

Israel said:


> Axshully dat's just Israel quoting a better...Robert Frost.


I see. But I still don't know what the phrase means.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Agree cooking is generally better in a regular stove/oven. But for warming up leftovers I would say a microwave is - for my purposes - a very efficient method. And like I said for specific situations where you don't have a regular stove/oven a microwave is a valid choice.


Ever looked at how much electricity it takes to power one? I aint owned one in forever.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 10, 2022)

Israel said:


> Mending Wall​BY ROBERT FROST
> Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
> That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
> And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
> ...


Too much for my caveman brain to unpack! Suffice it to say poetry is not my cup of tea.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 10, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Pancakes for supper is awesome! Have them for supper more often than I have them for breakfast! I think that makes us brothers in boldness


This makes me think about potato pancakes - I haven't had them in a long time.


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## ambush80 (Nov 10, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> That doesn't make sense to me. Theoretically whether god is with you or not, anybody could oppose you, they would just have a more difficult time defeating you.



It's a generalized version of the rally cry used by many leaders through time from Hitler to George W. Bush.


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## ambush80 (Nov 10, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Naw suh. A microwave is highly inefficient and does a worse job of cooking that just about any other method. In my opinion it meets the very definition of looking for a new way shortcut that does a worse job.



Ever have a Hot Pocket or microwave pop corn?


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Ever have a Hot Pocket or microwave pop corn?


I have.
Ever had corn popped in a skillet over an open fire? Or a meat pie baked in a woodfire oven?


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 10, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I have.
> Ever had corn popped in a skillet over an open fire? Or a meat pie baked in a woodfire oven?


I miss homegrown popcorn popped on the woodstove in sausage grease in a cast iron pot. That was the ultimate. I'll snarf down some Redenbacher's microvave popcorn in a heartbeat, too, though.


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## ambush80 (Nov 10, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I have.
> Ever had corn popped in a skillet over an open fire? Or a meat pie baked in a woodfire oven?



Yes and yes.  

Popcorn is a sideways move, qualitatively, in my opinion, with more hassle and mess.  A Hot Pocket cooked in a wood fired oven might improve by a scintilla, but also more hassle and mess.


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## ambush80 (Nov 10, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I miss homegrown popcorn popped on the woodstove in sausage grease in a cast iron pot. That was the ultimate. I'll snarf down some Redenbacher's microvave popcorn in a heartbeat, too, though.



You go wash your mouth out with that filthy food porn talk!!!

(Sounds amazing)


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Yes and yes.
> 
> Popcorn is a sideways move, qualitatively, in my opinion, with more hassle and mess.  A Hot Pocket cooked in a wood fired oven might improve by a scintilla, but also more hassle and mess.


I disagree. Aint nothin good about hot pockets or a microwave.


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## ambush80 (Nov 10, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I disagree. Aint nothin good about hot pockets or a microwave.



M'kay


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> M'kay


Hey we dont have ta like all the same stuff right? If we did that might be like a you know religion or somethin


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I miss homegrown popcorn popped on the woodstove in sausage grease in a cast iron pot. That was the ultimate. I'll snarf down some Redenbacher's microvave popcorn in a heartbeat, too, though.


Do you recall what variety of field corn your people grew up there?


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 10, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Do you recall what variety of field corn your people grew up there?


A lot of times, many families had their own heirloom varieties at one point. I don't remember exactly what variety we used to grow, but grandpa and dad bought it at the Co-op.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> A lot of times, many families had their own heirloom varieties at one point. I don't remember exactly what variety we used to grow, but grandpa and dad bought it at the Co-op.


Yeah i was afraid of that. Most ol timers and folks who know such things say the same. I plant hickory king and sometimes a variety called blue clarage. Its from ohio or something.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 10, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Do you recall what variety of field corn your people grew up there?


I assume you're talking about the corn we grew to feed livestock? I don't remember the name, but it was some kind of regular-looking yaller dent corn. Grandpa used to have a mill that he ran off an old hit-and-miss motor, and I think he grew Hickory Cane for actually grinding into meal for people to eat, if I remember correctly.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I assume you're talking about the corn we grew to feed livestock? I don't remember the name, but it was some kind of regular-looking yaller dent corn. Grandpa used to have a mill that he ran off an old hit-and-miss motor, and I think he grew Hickory Cane for actually grinding into meal for people to eat, if I remember correctly.


Thats cool. Yeah i guess some call it hickory cane, hickory king down here.  From what i can figure out yaller corn was animal feed n people ate the white or color varieties. As for poppin corn there are a bunch o kinds. Never grew one yet.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

Yall ever grow any hot pockets up yonder?


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 10, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Thats cool. Yeah i guess some call it hickory cane, hickory king down here.  From what i can figure out yaller corn was animal feed n people ate the white or color varieties. As for poppin corn there are a bunch o kinds. Never grew one yet.


Yep. White for people, yaller for critters was the way everybody around here was.
 We used to grow popcorn every year, it grows easily. We grew the standard yellow kernel one, and also a variety with white rice-shaped kernels that was really good. If you grow it, just to remember to plant it a ways from your sweet corn or field corn, or you'll ruin all of it for its intended purpose if it cross-pollinates.


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## Nicodemus (Nov 10, 2022)

From what I`ve studied, way back when there were four varieties of corn. Flint, Dent, Flour, and Pop. All the different varieties came from these four. Not bad for a grass that wanted to be more, with a little help. The variety I have is Dent, called Altamaha "something or other." It`s a white field corn.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> From what I`ve studied, way back when there were four varieties of corn. Flint, Dent, Flour, and Pop. All the different varieties came from these four. Not bad for a grass that wanted to be more, with a little help. The variety I have is Dent, called Altamaha "something or other." It`s a white field corn.


Thanks, good info nic


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 10, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> It's a generalized version of the rally cry used by many leaders through time from Hitler to George W. Bush.


Fair enough, but let's for argument's sake say that Hitler believed that god was on his side, and at the same time Roosevelt believed that god (the same god) was on_ his _side - somebody is mistaken! In hindsight it seems obvious who was wrong, but not every situation is so cut-and-dried.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 10, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Ever looked at how much electricity it takes to power one? I aint owned one in forever.


I googled the energy requirements of a microwave versus a conventional oven. I didn't even consider slow cookers (hardly a short cut) use less energy! I will say crockpots bring out the flavor in a lot of foods. Here we go:

*"Yes, microwave ovens use less energy (up to 80% less) than conventional ovens*. In addition to saving energy, microwave ovens generally cook food much faster, and don't generate as much heat in your kitchen, so you could save on air conditioning costs during the summer."

*"Microwaves, slow cookers, electric pressure cookers and air fryers all consume significantly less energy than ovens*, so using these instead, if possible, will save you money."

"Think about how you heat your food – *using a microwave* is far more energy efficient than cooking on a traditional gas or electric hob when you're heating up small amounts of food."


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## The Original Rooster (Nov 10, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I googled the energy requirements of a microwave versus a conventional oven. I didn't even consider slow cookers (hardly a short cut) use less energy! I will say crockpots bring out the flavor in a lot of foods. Here we go:
> 
> *"Yes, microwave ovens use less energy (up to 80% less) than conventional ovens*. In addition to saving energy, microwave ovens generally cook food much faster, and don't generate as much heat in your kitchen, so you could save on air conditioning costs during the summer."
> 
> ...


I remember back in the 70's when old folks said that microwaves "shocked" the food to make it hot.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I googled the energy requirements of a microwave versus a conventional oven. I didn't even consider slow cookers (hardly a short cut) use less energy! I will say crockpots bring out the flavor in a lot of foods. Here we go:
> 
> *"Yes, microwave ovens use less energy (up to 80% less) than conventional ovens*. In addition to saving energy, microwave ovens generally cook food much faster, and don't generate as much heat in your kitchen, so you could save on air conditioning costs during the summer."
> 
> ...


Did you google to see how much electricity cooking with wood uses compared to a microwave? Its not much.


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## The Original Rooster (Nov 10, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Did you google to see how much electricity cooking with wood uses compared to a microwave? Its not much.


Really? How much?


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

Yall will argue bout anything down here wont ya? Got ya tore up about appliances now


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Really? How much?


Suprizingly little......


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## GT90 (Nov 10, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I googled the energy requirements of a microwave versus a conventional oven. I didn't even consider slow cookers (hardly a short cut) use less energy! I will say crockpots bring out the flavor in a lot of foods. Here we go:
> 
> *"Yes, microwave ovens use less energy (up to 80% less) than conventional ovens*. In addition to saving energy, microwave ovens generally cook food much faster, and don't generate as much heat in your kitchen, so you could save on air conditioning costs during the summer."
> 
> ...


Shush now...Don't want no greenies to see this and start a drive to ban ovens and stoves, for the children you know.  I like my high electric usage food.  Cooking corn bread in the oven right now.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 10, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> I remember back in the 70's when old folks said that microwaves "shocked" the food to make it hot.


My son's housemate won't use a microwave because she thinks they leak radiation. Yes they do, but the tiny amount won't harm you. Granted if had lab rats living next to a microwave oven running almost 24/7 if might harm them, but humans using them a few times a day, not so much.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

My point was microwaves have not improved food.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

Or cooking


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

They may have improved the rate of usage of diabetes medicines though.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 10, 2022)

GT90 said:


> Shush now...Don't want no greenies to see this and start a drive to ban ovens and stoves, for the children you know.  I like my high electric usage food.  Cooking corn bread in the oven right now.


I haven't had corn bread since I was at Cracker Barrel a couple of months ago. And the greenies? They are busy trying to develop a solar powered coal plant.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 10, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I haven't had corn bread since I was at Cracker Barrel a couple of months ago. And the greenies? They are busy trying to develop a solar powered coal plant.


If you had cornbread at Cracker Barrel, you didn't have cornbread.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 10, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Did you google to see how much electricity cooking with wood uses compared to a microwave? Its not much.


My grandma spent her whole life cooking in a wood cookstove. My sister built an old timey kitchen on her house a few years ago and installed a wood cookstove. I love it.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 10, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> My point was microwaves have not improved food.


Nope, but I sure like the one in the break room at work for heating up my leftovers. Beats going out in the parking lot and building a far.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 10, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Nope, but I sure like the one in the break room at work for heating up my leftovers. Beats going out in the parking lot and building a far.


No it dont and you know it.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 10, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Did you google to see how much electricity cooking with wood uses compared to a microwave? Its not much.


Interesting! I've never cooked with wood, but all we had was wood heat when I lived in Wisconsin during my high school days.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 10, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> They may have improved the rate of usage of diabetes medicines though.


Oh that's for sure! Foods designed for microwave heating are generally processed foods. But if you are mainly using your microwave to heat leftover foods you originally made in a regular stove or oven - you're golden.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 11, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Interesting! I've never cooked with wood, but all we had was wood heat when I lived in Wisconsin during my high school days.


Aint nothing like the heat from a good wood stove.


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## Nicodemus (Nov 11, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I haven't had corn bread since I was at Cracker Barrel a couple of months ago. And the greenies? They are busy trying to develop a solar powered coal plant.




You ain`t from around here, are you?

Cornbread, real cornbread, is a staple around here. Sometimes it even has cracklins or jalapenos, or both in it.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 11, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> You ain`t from around here, are you?
> 
> Cornbread, real cornbread, is a staple around here. Sometimes it even has cracklins or jalapenos, or both in it.


I'm well acquainted with cornbread; I just rarely make it. I will eat it occasionally, like when I'm at Cracker Barrel or some other restaurant. I don't know what cracklins are (or maybe I know them under a different name) and I stay away from jalapenos. I don't like hot foods. Garlic is about the strongest flavoring I can handle.


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## Spotlite (Nov 11, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I'm well acquainted with cornbread; I just rarely make it. I will eat it occasionally, like when I'm at Cracker Barrel or some other restaurant. I don't know what cracklins are (or maybe I know them under a different name) and I stay away from jalapenos. I don't like hot foods. Garlic is about the strongest flavoring I can handle.


Cracklings, in short - pieces of pig trimmings (pig skin) that have been fried.

The fake ones in the stores are meat skins, pork skins, etc.


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## WaltL1 (Nov 11, 2022)

Venison chili on the stove
RIP Dave


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 11, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Cracklings, in short - pieces of pig trimmings (pig skin) that have been fried.
> 
> The fake ones in the stores are meat skins, pork skins, etc.


Real cracklins are the stuff left in the bottom of the pot after you get done rendering lard.


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## livinoutdoors (Nov 11, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> You ain`t from around here, are you?
> 
> Cornbread, real cornbread, is a staple around here. Sometimes it even has cracklins or jalapenos, or both in it.


My wife puts just a teeny bit of homemade pepper sauce in hers. Its really good! She can make a dry one or a moist one depending


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## ambush80 (Nov 11, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Fair enough, but let's for argument's sake say that Hitler believed that god was on his side, and at the same time Roosevelt believed that god (the same god) was on_ his _side - somebody is mistaken! In hindsight it seems obvious who was wrong, but not every situation is so cut-and-dried.


 If they truly believed in God, they would accept the outcome as righteous....or pull a Conan the Barbarian, and curse Crom.


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## ambush80 (Nov 11, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Real cracklins are the stuff left in the bottom of the pot after you get done rendering lard.



I just recently made my first cracklins.  They were real good on greens.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 11, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Venison chili on the stove
> RIP Dave


Venison chili? Sounds tasty! My late father-in-law from Arizona used to make elk tamales - too spicy IMHO but most of the family liked them.


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## 660griz (Nov 22, 2022)

j_seph said:


> Are you Professing?


Yes. If you consider this definition. 
Definition of profess
verb (used with object)
to lay claim to, often insincerely; pretend to:


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## WaltL1 (Nov 22, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Venison chili? Sounds tasty! My late father-in-law from Arizona used to make elk tamales - too spicy IMHO but most of the family liked them.


Very tasty!
I will take a medium-rare elk steak over any animal Ive ever eaten.


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## oldfella1962 (Nov 22, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Very tasty!
> I will take a medium-rare elk steak over any animal Ive ever eaten.


Moose is good - tastes a lot like venison since they eat pretty much the same food. Caribou can be a little rough because their diet is very limited.


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