# False Christians,Teachers and Prophets.



## Lowjack (Oct 4, 2009)

Warning: I don't want you to be misled. Some consider me to be a false teacher, and this is written by a former believer, not a current believer. 

Recently, one commenter to my writings has expressed disapproval of me and my writing, and it started me thinking, "How a Christian respond to someone that they feel is living in sin, spreading error, or is weak in the faith? 

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them-bringing swift destruction on themselves. 

~2Peter 2:1 

It is pretty clear that the leadership of the early Church warned believers to be on guard against false, false teachers, and, according to II Peter, these false teachers bring destruction on themselves. I think the writer of II Peter believed that this destruction they bring on themselves would be coming from God, and not at the hands of vigilantly believers seeking to do God's dirty work for Him. 

The message from II Peter is aimed at the believers. The writer is not talking to the false teachers he is talking to those who might potentially be affected by these false teachers. 

14 that we be not now little children, moving as waves, and be not borne about with each wind of teaching [and be borne about with all wind of teaching], in the waywardness of men, in subtle wit, to the deceiving of error. 

~Ephesians 4:14 

8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. 

~Colossians 2:8 

16 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 

"Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; 

they fill you with false hopes. 

They speak visions from their own minds, 

not from the mouth of the LORD. 

~Jeremiah 23:16 

There is literally NO QUESTION that the Bible opposes false teachers, false prophets, and false doctrine. But how does the Bible suggest that believers to deal with these false teachers, and non believers? 

1. Follow a Progressive Discipline Plan 

15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. ~Matthew 18:15-17 


First, attempt to talk privately with the person who you feel is wrong, and attempt to correct them . 
Second, if they refuse to listen take one or two witnesses and again attempt to correct their errors. 
Third, tell it to the church. I assume here there are prayers and perhaps social pressure that might impact the thinking of the errant brother or sister. 
Four, finally, if they still refuse to listen the church, the believers, the called out, are to treat this brother the way you would treat a pagan or a tax collector. 
But what does it mean to treat someone as a pagan or tax collector? 

1. Avoid them. 

Perhaps the best way to answer this is to find examples in the scriptures of how Jesus treated pagans and tax collectors. Remember that the pagans were people who were not God-followers. They were outsiders, they were "those people", they were trouble-makers, they were unclean, sinful, untrustworthy, disreputable, and enemies of the Children of Israel. 

The only thing worse was being a "tax collector". The tax collectors were Jews that collected tax for the Roman government. The Romans were an occupying oppressor and anyone collecting tax for them was not just a tax collector but they were also traitors, sell-outs, and guilty of complicity with the Romans to extort money from family and countrymen. These tax collectors often used force and pain to steal from their brethren. 

I am not sure how most Christians would view me: I may be considered a pagan, a false teacher, or a dishonest creep like those Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- tax collectors, but how did Jesus treat these very bad folk? 

But how did Jesus himself treat pagans and tax collectors? 

Jesus went to dinner parties at their homes of these pagans and tax collectors. 

Jesus invited them to his teaching events. 

Jesus actually used a pagan as an example of great faith 

On the cross Jesus forgave a pagan's sins and sent him to paradise. 



2. The Bible tells believers to avoid false teachers 

17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 

~Romans 16:17 

14 If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother. 

!II Thessalonians 3:14-15 

I have had a number of comments from one reader responding with annoyance, and perhaps some degree of anger over articles I have written. I have urged this reader to stop reading my stuff, and asked her to stop reading, and avoid stuff that annoyed her. This is Biblical advice, I think. 3. The Bible tells believers not to judge those weak in the faith. Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. Romans 14:1 

1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 

~Romans 2:1-3 

Perhaps you have heard the old Christian saying, "Condemn the sin, and not the sinner." I think a careful study of the scriptures will show that the main thrust of the teachings advocate for opposing sin, refuting false doctrine, but not to do God's job for God. God is in charge of the judging stuff. 14And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 

~1Thessalonians 5:14 

Instead of judging, Christians are urged to: 
warn the idle 
encourage the timid 
help the weak, and 
be patient with everyone. 
3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 

~Romans 14: 2-7 

Clearly, Paul is discussing how Christians should respond and relate to other people with whom they have Biblical disagreements. Paul points out that one person might consider one day more important than another; and another person might believe that we should esteem every day alike: By bringing this difference to the attention of the Church Paul is letting all Christians know that he is not just talking about calendar disputes, he is talking about principles and not just this one specific issues. What the Apostle Paul says has application to more than just eating meat, or how to consider holidays. 

The Apostle Paul goes on to say that we should allow each person be fully convinced in his own mind: Here, Paul seems to be willing to leave controversial issues up to the conscience of the individual. Obviously, Paul is not saying to ignore false teaching. This section is not about how to deal with false teachings, this is about how to deal with those you consider to be false teachers. 

Well, what is a Christian to do with someone won't reconcile? 

Well, this is America so you can do what you want. 

You can tell them that they are annoying, that they need to grow up, that they are purposely spreading lies, that they may be stupid, if that is what you want to do. I am not sure that is the best way to convert someone, but bash away if you want. 

Or you could treat them like the people Jesus loved, lived for, and for whom Jesus died to save. 

You could engage these weak brothers or sisters, or these false teachers seeking to build a deeper relationship. 

You might consider praying for them and continue to offer reconciliation, and 

You could remember how Jesus reconciled you. 

One of the better criticisms of my writing is that I stubbornly refuse to make a distinction between Christians who I claim have treated me shabbily, and I instead blame the entire church for the actions of these few individuals. 

I think this is true. However, one harsh treatment at the hands of believers is one thing. Two, a person might shake off. But after repeated hurts at the hands of Christians, it is easy to start thinking, perhaps the fault is not in these people, but in the thing they believe. 

While my commenter was seeking to silence me, get me to grow up, get over it, and suggested that I was an immature, raging, immature liar, my reaction is more a confirmation that there is something wrong in the doctrine if it breeds such reactions. I don't think you win arguments when you insult your opponent. You get leery of a group when so many members of that group have kicked you in the systabottarinktum. 

I would suggest that when you disagree with someone in matters of doctrine and faith that you do so in a way that refused the errors you feel have been proclaimed, while doing so in a way that might leave the door open to persuade those you feel are in error. 
Tex Norman


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## Randy (Oct 4, 2009)

I guess my question is what is a false christian, teacher, prophet?

Most of us here believe in God but many of use believe the rest of the Bible a little differently.  Are we just debating and studying here or are we false teachers?  I have actually been accused of it here BTW.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 4, 2009)

It sounds pretty good to me.

But obviously, each situation has it's own needs.

And like it or not there are situations that in the end require withdrawing fellowship from a person.


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## Inthegarge (Oct 4, 2009)

There is a lot of difference between doctrinal issues and "the Gospel". It seems many "Strain at a gnat and swallow a camel." Unless it is grossly in error or "sowing discord between the brethern" there is not much value in responding. I try to stay out of the frey whenever possible....RW


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## redneckcamo (Oct 4, 2009)

well I suggest you deal with it as you always have ....... and we will all do the same ! 

in these last days the world is full of false doctrine and counterfeits....we all need to be careful what we hear ,whom it is that is speaking, or what we read !


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 4, 2009)

Lowjack,
I've always found your posts informative and well thought out. I don't consider you a false teacher, even if I don't always agree with you.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 4, 2009)

I encourage people at church to disagree with me.  Disagree with me and then jump into God's word and study.

It isn't important that we all agree, but it is important to love and respect one another.


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## earl (Oct 5, 2009)

According to the bible man doesn't know when JC is coming back.

But Lowjack does.

''All that is left is Ezequiel chapter 38-39 and I believe that is about to take place, within the next 2 years.IMO ''

Unless this is true ,he must be a ...


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## rjcruiser (Oct 5, 2009)

earl said:


> According to the bible man doesn't know when JC is coming back.
> 
> But Lowjack does.
> 
> ...




Earl....I think you and me agree on a lot more than we probably give each other credit for.

Hmm....must be the reason LJ is posting all of these news stories of natural disasters.


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## thedeacon (Oct 5, 2009)

When  someone comes on a forum like this and states his opinion, no matter what it is about, someone is going to disagree with him. That is just life. If you are going to talk expect someone to talk back.

However sometimes things get out of hand, I have always said; when someone tells me I am not going to heaven he should have a tear in his eyes. Some on here will spout our destination to hades and act like they are glad we are going. Wrong

 Whatever we do, no matter what it is, should be done in love and to bring God glory. Read in James and see what danger the tongue is to us. 

We are supposed to be followers of Jesus and not hullagines.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 5, 2009)

thedeacon said:


> When  someone comes on a forum like this and states his opinion, no matter what it is about, someone is going to disagree with him. That is just life. If you are going to talk expect someone to talk back.
> 
> However sometimes things get out of hand, I have always said; when someone tells me I am not going to heaven he should have a tear in his eyes. Some on here will spout our destination to hades and act like they are glad we are going. Wrong
> 
> ...




Hmmm...good thing I'm using my fingers to type and not and tongue

In all honesty though...it is funny to see how people post on here.  I guess it takes a little time, but you see the personalities come out.  That is why it is so easy to see when a banned person comes back under the guise of another username and IP address.

I don't think I've ever said that LJ is going to he!!.  He does, however, love to play the victim.  Reminds me of blacks who have this chip on their shoulder.  Everyone is attacking them because they're black.  Everyone attacks LJ because he is Jewish.


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## thedeacon (Oct 5, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Hmmm...good thing I'm using my fingers to type and not and tongue
> 
> In all honesty though...it is funny to see how people post on here.  I guess it takes a little time, but you see the personalities come out.  That is why it is so easy to see when a banned person comes back under the guise of another username and IP address.
> 
> I don't think I've ever said that LJ is going to he!!.  He does, however, love to play the victim.  Reminds me of blacks who have this chip on their shoulder.  Everyone is attacking them because they're black.  Everyone attacks LJ because he is Jewish.



I can't disagree with you


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## earl (Oct 5, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Earl....I think you and me agree on a lot more than we probably give each other credit for.
> 
> Hmm....must be the reason LJ is posting all of these news stories of natural disasters.





More so every day my friend.


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## Lowjack (Oct 5, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Hmmm...good thing I'm using my fingers to type and not and tongue
> 
> In all honesty though...it is funny to see how people post on here.  I guess it takes a little time, but you see the personalities come out.  That is why it is so easy to see when a banned person comes back under the guise of another username and IP address.
> 
> I don't think I've ever said that LJ is going to he!!.  He does, however, love to play the victim.  Reminds me of blacks who have this chip on their shoulder.  Everyone is attacking them because they're black.  Everyone attacks LJ because he is Jewish.



So Was Christ and He is attacked by Pharisees and Gentiles crucified him, should I expect any better from this bunch ?Earl with the hammer on hand and you with the nails, and Ham with the spear, surrounded by Dawgs as the psalmist says.

So I'm asked , what if you are wrong ?, so I'm wrong I didn't read the signs correctly, but what if I'm right and we are entering the last days and you soul is not prepared for Judgment.

Is like the insurance salesman that hounds you to buy disability insurance and you refuse then you fall off your deer stand and can't never work again.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 5, 2009)

I have to admit, I think we're living in the end times also.

Okay, I also admit, I read it in the Bible.

And there's no such thing as a Jewish Christian and an otherwise Christian.  We're all God's children.  God doesn't like His kids beating each other up.


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## earl (Oct 5, 2009)

I don't want to bust your bubble ,but you and JC being Jewish doesn't have anything to do with it.





Remember,don't reply. You almost made it 24 hours.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 5, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> So Was Christ and He is attacked by Pharisees and Gentiles crucified him, should I expect any better from this bunch ?Earl with the hammer on hand and you with the nails, and Ham with the spear, surrounded by Dawgs as the psalmist says.
> 
> So I'm asked , what if you are wrong ?, so I'm wrong I didn't read the signs correctly, but what if I'm right and we are entering the last days and you soul is not prepared for Judgment.
> 
> Is like the insurance salesman that hounds you to buy disability insurance and you refuse then you fall off your deer stand and can't never work again.



Thanks LJ...comparing yourself to Christ.  Wow...kinda proves the whole arrogance point that was brought up earlier.


One last thing...another spiritual pet peeve of mine.  What if I'm wrong..compared to what if you're wrong.

So that is why you're a Christian?  Insurance?  C'mon...if the only reason you're a Christian is for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, I think you need to re-examine your reasoning and your faith.



earl said:


> Remember,don't reply. You almost made it 24 hours.



Almost as long as his spiritual forum retirement


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## Lowjack (Oct 5, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I have to admit, I think we're living in the end times also.
> 
> Okay, I also admit, I read it in the Bible.
> 
> And there's no such thing as a Jewish Christian and an otherwise Christian.  We're all God's children.  God doesn't like His kids beating each other up.


Do you hear a mosquito in your computer ? every time we are discussing something or an annoying gnat.


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## Randy (Oct 5, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I have to admit, I think we're living in the end times also.
> 
> Okay, I also admit, I read it in the Bible.
> 
> And there's no such thing as a Jewish Christian and an otherwise Christian.  We're all God's children.  God doesn't like His kids beating each other up.


I don't think I will see it in my lifetime but yes we are near the end I think.  Of course I nor anybody knows.  I say within 200 years but not in the next 50.


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## Lowjack (Oct 5, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Thanks LJ...comparing yourself to Christ.  Wow...kinda proves the whole arrogance point that was brought up earlier.
> 
> 
> One last thing...another spiritual pet peeve of mine.  What if I'm wrong..compared to what if you're wrong.
> ...



All Of Us who believe in Christ are Christ like, you are not so you don't know how it feels.
We are all also Sons of the King therefore Heirs, therefore Princes and Lords of The Universe, Kings and priests, there you go, and I didn't say that Christ Himself said that.

"To Those that accepted him, He gave the Power to be Called sons of God"


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## Ronnie T (Oct 5, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Do you hear a mosquito in your computer ? every time we are discussing something or an annoying gnat.



Sorry Lj, you went over my head.
I don't get the mosquito and gnat.
I'm slow.


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## earl (Oct 5, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I have to admit, I think we're living in the end times also.
> 
> Okay, I also admit, I read it in the Bible.
> 
> And there's no such thing as a Jewish Christian and an otherwise Christian.  We're all God's children.  God doesn't like His kids beating each other up.




Will you go so far as to predict the end of time  as has King Lowjack ?
He has also claimed that God is Jewish ,so why not a Jewish Christian ?


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## jason4445 (Oct 5, 2009)

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

This did not come from the Bible, but Shakespeare said it as well as any Bible verse could. To thine own self be true.

I don't think for a instant that Low Jack is preaching false doctrine for he is advising on how he truly believes - being true to himself - and that is no way being false.

Of course I have no belief in the end times as described in Revelations and Low Jacks obsession is just typical of Fundamentalism where terror and fear is used in convincing the unbeliever to convert to their brand of Christianity.  And it works.

Then another typical ruse of fundamentalist is when disagreed with you play the victim - hold a faint hand to your heart and compare yourself with Jesus - in other words let your pride elevate your status from a mere sinner to that on a level with Jesus himself.

Really in Revelations, you find the two biggest contradictions in Fundamental Christianity.  The first is after the Flood thing God said he would not destroy mankind again, yet Revelations it says he will.

Secondly, ask most any Fundamentalist what happens to the "true believer" after death and they believe the dearly departed go to heaven to be with Jesus, yet in Revelation it says that no one goes to heaven until Jesus makes his second return. 

Then there is that pesky part of the Bible that is mostly ignored where both Jesus and Paul say Jesus will return within a generation of those they are speaking to yet again Revelations says that he will still come back.

I disagree with Low Jack's philosophy on the end times, and at times find his obsession with it rather troubling, but he is preaching about his believes and not falsely to himself.


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## post450 (Oct 5, 2009)

jason4445 said:


> Really in Revelations, you find the two biggest contradictions in Fundamental Christianity.  The first is after the Flood thing God said he would not destroy mankind again, yet Revelations it says he will.



As to this "flood thing" you might want to re-read Genesis 9:15 

"And I will remember my covenant, which [is] between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh." 

God said he would not use water to destroy all creation again, He did not say he would not destroy all creation by some other means.

So I guess that means were down to one big contradiction? If the last one is solved are you gonna become a fundamentalist?


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## Lowjack (Oct 5, 2009)

post450 said:


> As to this "flood thing" you might want to re-read Genesis 9:15
> 
> "And I will remember my covenant, which [is] between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh."
> 
> ...


Thanks, you saved me some typing, of Course without the Holy Spirit to discern the Word , you get the Rhetoric we see.
But you have the Spirit of God in you.
Peace.


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## Lowjack (Oct 5, 2009)

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the 1law: for sin is the atransgression of the law. 
1 Matt 5:19, Rom 7:7 

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our 1sins; and in him is no sin. 
1 Matt 9:13, Matt 18:11, Luke 19:10, Rom 5:8, 1st Tim 1:15 

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might 1destroy the works of the devil. 1 Gen 3:15, Rom 16:20, Heb 2:14 

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the 1children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 
1 Gen 3:15, Matt 13:38, John 8:44, Acts 13:10, 2nd Peter 2:14 

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that 1wicked one, and 2slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. 
1 Matt 5:37, Matt 6:13, Matt 13:19, Matt 13:38, John 17:15, 2nd Thess 3:3, 1st John 2:13, 1st John 5:18 
2 Gen 4:8, Jude 11 

13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. 
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15
 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

20 For if our heart 1condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 
1 Gen 3:10, Job 23:15 

21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

22 And whatsoever we 1ask, we 2receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 
1 Matt 7:7, Matt 21:22, Mark 11:24, Luke 11:9,10, Luke 18:1, John 14:13, John 15:7, John 16:23 
2 Matt 18:19, James 5:16 

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 


The fundamental response from the world to Christ is hatred. A major reason for this hatred is that Christ is everything the world is not; He is completely foreign to the world’s values and thinking. Christ is holy; this world loves evil (John 3:20). Christ is light, this world loves darkness (John 3:19). Christ is the revelation of true wisdom, God’s wisdom; the best this world can produce is foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:25). 

This hatred for Christ also extends to believers, who are Christ’s. In fact, it is Christ’s presence within the believer which “stirs up the world’s antagonism toward God and His purposes in Christ.” Furthermore, the world no longer has access to Christ. It can no longer make Him the object of its hatred: “As long as Jesus was on earth, He remained the prime target of persecution; once his physical presence was removed, the world’s hatred would inevitably turn toward his disciples.” 

Christ reminds His disciples that He had told them “A servant is not greater than His master.” Christ had first said this when he sent the Twelve out to Israel to preach the good news. Even then he had warned them, “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves…beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake…brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake…A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master…If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household!” (Matthew 10:16-26)
Boice sums this truth of very well: “Here is the crux of the matter. Why does the world hate Christians? It hates them because it hates their Master. Hatred does not exist because of what Christians are in themselves; they are nothing. It does not exist because of what they have done; they are harmless (or at least they should be). Hatred exists because the world hates Jesus and because Christians are identified with him by virtue of his call.”
A. People will react to the disciples in the same way they would react to Christ.

Christ says, “If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.” Christ is saying that the way people react to the message of the Gospel isn’t the responsibility of those who proclaim it: “The implication of this is that ultimately the disciples have no control over how their message will be received. People’s response to their proclamation will depend on their stand toward Jesus.”


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## Ronnie T (Oct 5, 2009)

jason4445 said:


> This above all: to thine own self be true,
> And it must follow, as the night the day,
> Thou canst not then be false to any man.
> 
> ...



It's okay to disagree.  85% of what we discuss is opinion anyway.


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## tomtlb66 (Oct 5, 2009)

I don't believe your a false prophet, I believe you are trying to spread the word. I  understand about false prophets, and when I disagree with a fellow Christian, I am repsectful, and I know who has the answer. So, I go to God, and He shows me. I believe these situations are healthy, and if we listen to Jesus, and pray about everything like Paul said, God will show us the truth.


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## BeenHuntn (Oct 5, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I have to admit, I think we're living in the end times also.
> 
> Okay, I also admit, I read it in the Bible.
> 
> And there's no such thing as a Jewish Christian and an otherwise Christian.  We're all God's children.  God doesn't like His kids beating each other up.



"we are all" God's children...  ??  didn't Jesus say the words, "you are of your father the devil"....?  i believe that He did... i am gonna guess, based on the words of the Lord....  that some of us are children of God and some of us are children of satan...

sorry... rt, the Scrupture rules...


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## Ronnie T (Oct 5, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> "we are all" God's children...  ??  didn't Jesus say the words, "you are of your father the devil"....?  i believe that He did... i am gonna guess, based on the words of the Lord....  that some of us are children of God and some of us are children of satan...
> 
> sorry... rt, the Scrupture rules...



You misunderstood.
Those who live for His Son are His children.
Whether Jew, Greek, American, Iraqi.

I didn't intend to include those who reject Christ.


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## Diogenes (Oct 5, 2009)

For what it is worth, the immediate error is quite clear in the OP – “ . . . Well, what is a Christian to do with someone won't reconcile? . . . You can tell them that they are annoying, that they need to grow up, that they are purposely spreading lies, that they may be stupid, if that is what you want to do. I am not sure that is the best way to convert someone, but bash away if you want. . . You could engage these weak brothers or sisters, or these false teachers seeking to build a deeper relationship.”

Um?  Can it not be seen, at all, that defining those who do not agree with your point of view as “these weak brothers or sisters” is the sort of thing that runs counter to all proclamations of ‘Christian’ thought?

So, being strong is equated with agreeing, and everyone else is a weak person who is “spreading lies” and needs to be converted?   Do you see no parallels with Mao Tse Tung here?  

There is nothing so dangerous as a ‘true believer,’ who feels so strongly that he is right and everyone else is wrong that their mind is not only closed but locked into ancient superstitions.  A ‘false teacher,’ by any definition, would be one who spreads contentions that cannot be demonstrated.  

Weakness, by any definition, requires seeking the protection of the thundering herd due to an inability to be strong enough to take one’s own path, and requires ‘believing’ what the herd says rather than thinking on one’s own.  

Dissent, and individuality, and actual education, and the freedom to think independently takes far more strength than snapping into lockstep behind ancient doctrines, and is in my view the nobler of the two.  Any coward can hide behind the skirts of some invisible protector in the sky – but it takes real courage to confront the world on the terms it actually presents – a courage ‘believers’ seem to lack.


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## BeenHuntn (Oct 5, 2009)

jason4445 said:


> This above all: to thine own self be true,
> And it must follow, as the night the day,
> Thou canst not then be false to any man.
> 
> ...





first of all, there are NO contradictions in fundamental Christianity...  saying there is a contradiction in Biblical Truth is like saying that God cannot get it right... or that He is not capable of getting IT right...

second, the Book of Revelation is not Revelation(s)... its not plural...   

third, Shakespeare nor any man that has ever lived.. can ever say anything as well as the Bible did or has...

fourth, there are no "brands" of Christianity... there is one Christianity as there is one God and one Bible and one Holy Spirit and one baptism for the forgiveness of sins... one, one, one!!!  not many!

fifth, having "no belief" in the "end times" is denying the teachings of the Bible, which are the teachings of God...

sixth, there are billions of men, who are "true to themselves" yet terribly wrong about God and salvation...

seventh, Revelation (not plural) does not say that nobody goes to heaven until Jesus returns... Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Jesus in paradise "today"...

eighth, there are no "pesky" parts of the Bible. every word of Scripture is divine and perfect... far from being "pesky"...

ninth, Jesus did not say He was coming back within one generation of those. He talked about the Romans destroying Jeruselem in 70AD which was a prophecy...
He could not have said that He was coming back within one generation.. the reason why is because, He didn't come back within a generatin, therefore making Him a liar which He is not...

tenth, God did not say He would not destroy the world again.. He said that He would not destroy the world again using water...

finally, LJ's, philosophy on end-times may not be perfect, but neither is mine nor any other mans... but LJ does have a sense of urgency which comes from believing that salvation is necessary TODAY!!.. it should not be put off for one more day....  every man should seek the Kingdom as if tomorrow they could be in hellll.


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## BeenHuntn (Oct 5, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> You misunderstood.
> Those who live for His Son are His children.
> Whether Jew, Greek, American, Iraqi.
> 
> I didn't intend to include those who reject Christ.



ok, i misunderstood.... i thought you were lumping everybody into the group of being "His children"...


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## BeenHuntn (Oct 5, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> For what it is worth, the immediate error is quite clear in the OP – “ . . . Well, what is a Christian to do with someone won't reconcile? . . . You can tell them that they are annoying, that they need to grow up, that they are purposely spreading lies, that they may be stupid, if that is what you want to do. I am not sure that is the best way to convert someone, but bash away if you want. . . You could engage these weak brothers or sisters, or these false teachers seeking to build a deeper relationship.”
> 
> Um?  Can it not be seen, at all, that defining those who do not agree with your point of view as “these weak brothers or sisters” is the sort of thing that runs counter to all proclamations of ‘Christian’ thought?
> 
> ...



spoken like a true man of the world...  i am not sure why such a God hater is on a "spiritual" forum... maybe its because God has a plan for this God hater... that he will read a post and the Word of God will fill him... or the Holy Spirit will do His work...  maybe seeds are being planted...

be careful Dio... you may end up becoming a lover of God, instead of a God hater....  

Saul of Tarsus was a God hater and ended up becoming, Paul, the greatest Apostle...


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## Diogenes (Oct 5, 2009)

So how come God changed his name from Saul of Tarsus to Paul?  Did God misname him the first time?  Was it just, like, celebrities having to take stage names because their agent thinks their real name is a non-seller?  Did you have to change your name when you were selected for stardom?   Will I?  (This is going to be so inconvenient . . . )


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## BeenHuntn (Oct 5, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> So how come God changed his name from Saul of Tarsus to Paul?  Did God misname him the first time?  Was it just, like, celebrities having to take stage names because their agent thinks their real name is a non-seller?  Did you have to change your name when you were selected for stardom?   Will I?  (This is going to be so inconvenient . . . )



good grief, man... have you no fear of eternal torment?

have you ever considered the fact that you could be wrong.. and if you are wrong that eternity in hellll is a long time....?


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## earl (Oct 5, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> first of all, there are NO contradictions in fundamental Christianity...  saying there is a contradiction in Biblical Truth is like saying that God cannot get it right... or that He is not capable of getting IT right...
> 
> second, the Book of Revelation is not Revelation(s)... its not plural...
> 
> ...




1. Skeptics often point to conflicts within the Bible as proof of biblical errancy.
bullet	Some of these occur where two passages disagree in their description of the same event or belief. For example:
bullet	There are passages in the Bible that state that God punishes people for the sins of their parents, grand parents, etc. Yet there are others that state that people are punished only for their own sins.
bullet	Stories in various gospels about the trial(s) of Jesus and the identity of the women who visited his tomb appear to conflict with each other.

bullet	Other conflicts are related to an apparent conflict between science and a biblical story:
bullet	The Bible implies in Genesis 9:13 that no rainbows appeared in the sky before the flood of Noah. Yet rainbows occur because of the refractive index of water -- a factor that has not changed over time.
bullet	The Bible states in Joshua 10:13 that the sun stood still in the sky during a battle. But for this to happen, the earth would have had to stop rotating. The deceleration forces would have torn the earth to pieces.
Source religioustolerance.org
2.,3, No comment
4. you may want to look in on the origin of the bible thread. You are dead wrong.
8. See my 1.
Finally . If fear of he11 is all you got, you are way off base. The fear factor is a poor way to show your Christ like attitude as always. Any one you convert by fear is not saved.


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## Inthegarge (Oct 5, 2009)

Simple question, do you anyone who was there when these events didn't happen ?? It is simple: Since God created the earth he could stop time and the "deceleration forces" wouldn't even be a factor.
I find no conflicts with the Bible and Science. As each day passes more and more evidence that verifys the Bible record is found.   RW


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## BeenHuntn (Oct 5, 2009)

earl said:


> 1. Skeptics often point to conflicts within the Bible as proof of biblical errancy.
> bullet	Some of these occur where two passages disagree in their description of the same event or belief. For example:
> bullet	There are passages in the Bible that state that God punishes people for the sins of their parents, grand parents, etc. Yet there are others that state that people are punished only for their own sins.
> bullet	Stories in various gospels about the trial(s) of Jesus and the identity of the women who visited his tomb appear to conflict with each other.
> ...



sorry, earl... you're wrong.  some things never change...


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## jason4445 (Oct 6, 2009)

Yeah Noah I have read, in fact did a paper on it in college.  The word "flood" sort of eked its way into our modern Bible over the years the original word meant a God produced natural type disaster.  Others think the word flood is representational of any type disaster.  I mean if you can get once saved always saved out of John it is not much of a stretch to turn flooding into any disaster. In fact the whole Noah thing contradicts itself so much and in our times has been reduced to a children type two by two fairy tale.


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## tell sackett (Oct 6, 2009)

Keep hunting, maybe one day you'll find a God sized box.














not!!


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## Dominic (Oct 6, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> Saul of Tarsus was a God hater and ended up becoming, Paul, the greatest Apostle...


 


Diogenes said:


> So how come God changed his name from Saul of Tarsus to Paul? Did God misname him the first time?


 
Well God did not change Saul to Paul. In fact there are only a few select people that God personally changed their name Abraham, Sarah, Israel, and Joshua, and only one that was changed by Christ (before you start I know God and Christ are two parts of the one Trinity and not separate)


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## rjcruiser (Oct 6, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> All Of Us who believe in Christ are Christ like, you are not so you don't know how it feels.





LJ...do you feel that since you are Jewish, you have a better understanding of scripture?  Do you feel that you have more authority than those who are not?  

Do you think that Christians Jews are going to have a more special place in Heaven than Christian Gentiles?



tell sackett said:


> Keep hunting, maybe one day you'll find a God sized box.
> 
> not!!



I found one....mine is about 6inches by 8 inches by 2 inches.  Black....says Holy Bible on the front and genuine leather on the back


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## Lowjack (Oct 6, 2009)

jason4445 said:


> Yeah Noah I have read, in fact did a paper on it in college.  The word "flood" sort of eked its way into our modern Bible over the years the original word meant a God produced natural type disaster.  Others think the word flood is representational of any type disaster.  I mean if you can get once saved always saved out of John it is not much of a stretch to turn flooding into any disaster. In fact the whole Noah thing contradicts itself so much and in our times has been reduced to a children type two by two fairy tale.



So exactly what is the Aramean word used in Genesis to describe the flood ?
Because I grew up reading the Torah in Hebrew and it says Flood, although God holds all things Together by His power and Nature Obeys his Commands, as someone else brought it up, he Created and he Can destroy at any moment, doesn't matter what science says, God created the Universal Order out of Caos and he can Cause Caos again.


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## Lowjack (Oct 6, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> LJ...do you feel that since you are Jewish, you have a better understanding of scripture?  Do you feel that you have more authority than those who are not?
> Yes I do believe I can Understand The Idiosyncracies of the Hebrew Writtings Better than the Monolingual Student, The Word Was Not written by western people for Western people, Idiocyncracy of the people who wrote the Bible must be taken into account in Order to Transliterate The Hebrew, Aramean And Greek, Or do you think what you read in english is word per Word What The Original Language says ?
> No I don't think I have more authority than Others in here, In My Church and Synagogue I do as The Elder of the Church, but not to anyone else.
> But if you reject Knowledge from anyone then you are foolish.
> ...


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## Diogenes (Oct 6, 2009)

Dominic states: “Well God did not change Saul to Paul. In fact there are only a few select people that God personally changed their name Abraham, Sarah, Israel, and Joshua, and only one that was changed by Christ (before you start I know God and Christ are two parts of the one Trinity and not separate).”    

But wait a sec – if the Bible is the literal word of God, and the fella was really Saul to begin with, and God didn’t change his name, then what happened?  Transcription error?  Like at Ellis Island, where folks got new names on account of phonetic spellings of unfamiliar names?  God allows that in his Bible?  Or did the fella just not like his name, and he prayed one night – “Oh Dear God, please don’t call me Saul in your Almighty Records, ‘cause I hate that name . . . “

BeenHuntn: “good grief, man... have you no fear of eternal torment?

have you ever considered the fact that you could be wrong.. and if you are wrong that eternity in hellll is a long time....?”

Sir, I have no fear of the fictional, true enough.  Nor do I have a fear of your own fear-mongering, which seems to be your last defense in the face of disagreement.  You have nothing at all to offer in the way of ‘eternal torment,’ nothing at all to demonstrate your fearsome hades, and not a single concept of eternity.  Some of the stuff I see in movies is scary too, but the last time I was up at Lover’s Lane it turned out that nobody in a hockey mask wielding a chain saw actually showed up to punish my sins (and take my word for it, I committed plenty up there . . . ).  Your promise of eternal punishment for not seeing things your way is even sillier than the immediate punishment in the moralizing horror movies, and holds about the same weight.

A false prophet, I might have mentioned, is one who promises consequences that cannot be demonstrated, and further, is one who, when asked to demonstrate, instead falls back on his own prophesy as the proof . . .  Snake Oil sales are falling rapidly, and it might be time to get out of that business . . .


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## ted_BSR (Oct 6, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Dominic states: “Well God did not change Saul to Paul. In fact there are only a few select people that God personally changed their name Abraham, Sarah, Israel, and Joshua, and only one that was changed by Christ (before you start I know God and Christ are two parts of the one Trinity and not separate).”
> 
> But wait a sec – if the Bible is the literal word of God, and the fella was really Saul to begin with, and God didn’t change his name, then what happened?  Transcription error?  Like at Ellis Island, where folks got new names on account of phonetic spellings of unfamiliar names?  God allows that in his Bible?  Or did the fella just not like his name, and he prayed one night – “Oh Dear God, please don’t call me Saul in your Almighty Records, ‘cause I hate that name . . . “
> 
> ...



God offers forgiveness, punishment is what we deserve.  Don't be so cynical about Grace.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 6, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Warning: I don't want you to be misled. Some consider me to be a false teacher, and this is written by a former believer, not a current believer.
> 
> Recently, one commenter to my writings has expressed disapproval of me and my writing, and it started me thinking, "How a Christian respond to someone that they feel is living in sin, spreading error, or is weak in the faith?
> 
> ...



LJ- You are not a false teacher.  Your knowledge of scripture and history shows great effort in study. You seek, and therefore you will find.  You will educate some of us on the way.  God reveals himself to those that seek him.  Keep it up!!!


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## rjcruiser (Oct 7, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Yes I do believe I can Understand The Idiosyncracies of the Hebrew Writtings Better than the Monolingual Student, The Word Was Not written by western people for Western people, Idiocyncracy of the people who wrote the Bible must be taken into account in Order to Transliterate The Hebrew, Aramean And Greek, Or do you think what you read in english is word per Word What The Original Language says ?
> 
> Romans 3:1-9:33 ESV
> Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means!




With your comment about circumcision and being Jewish...you sound like the Judaisers in the NT that Paul spoke out against.  Oh...and by the way...its translate, not transliterate 

You have an arrogance about you.  That your knowledge is somehow more official because you are Jewish.  You don't have to be Jewish to learn the Hebrew language.  You don't have to be from Greece to understand the Greek text of the NT.

Christ taught to all as a humble servant.  When He taught in the temple at the age of 8, His humility caused others to listen.  



James 3:13

Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom.


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## Lowjack (Oct 7, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> With your comment about circumcision and being Jewish...you sound like the Judaisers in the NT that Paul spoke out against.  Oh...and by the way...its translate, not transliterate
> 
> You have an arrogance about you.  That your knowledge is somehow more official because you are Jewish.  You don't have to be Jewish to learn the Hebrew language.  You don't have to be from Greece to understand the Greek text of the NT.
> 
> ...



Thanks for trying to educate me , But I assure you, I'm very well educated at a Hebrew University Level, perhaps not so good in English ,but At least I Know that The Bible is a transliterated book ,not translated as you say, do you know what transliterated means ?
Hebrew Aramaic and Greek cannot be translated as saaay Spanish to English etc.
And I assure you I'm not a Judaizer as a matter of fact I agree with Paul in  that point, the gentiles were never called to have the Law, that was exclusively given to Israel.

You are confusing High Education with arrogance, just because I expose the Word with authority ?
I guess you never being a Student in a higher learning institution, I will show there what arrogance is.
I'm firm on my convictions not wavering by doctrines or paganism introduced into the churches today and some of you just wallow in that ignorance, how do I know is Ignorance ? because I read the word and deboning every verse in the original languages which you depreciate so venially.
Lots of Students pay good money to get an Education, you guys reject it, who is the fool then ?

Let me show you my life so then you can judge me, not just out a post in the internet Judge a whole person.
You show me your faith by your deeds I'll show you my deeds by my faith"

So long Feller.


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## Lowjack (Oct 7, 2009)

Since your understanding of the bible In english is equal or better than my Hebrew understanding ,would you care to comment why Jesus did this

When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay
John 9;6


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## rjcruiser (Oct 7, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Thanks for trying to educate me , But I assure you, I'm very well educated at a Hebrew University Level, perhaps not so good in English ,but At least I Know that The Bible is a transliterated book ,not translated as you say, do you know what transliterated means ?
> Hebrew Aramaic and Greek cannot be translated as saaay Spanish to English etc.



yes...I remember the last thread on it. 



			
				Lowjack said:
			
		

> You are confusing High Education with arrogance, just because I expose the Word with authority ?
> I guess you never being a Student in a higher learning institution, I will show there what arrogance is.
> I'm firm on my convictions not wavering by doctrines or paganism introduced into the churches today and some of you just wallow in that ignorance, how do I know is Ignorance ? because I read the word and deboning every verse in the original languages which you depreciate so venially.
> Lots of Students pay good money to get an Education, you guys reject it, who is the fool then ?



No...you expose the Word with arrogance.

And to add...the original text is important.  It gives much meaning...certain things do not translate well to english and you can gather meaning from the original text.  Where have I "depreciate[d] so venially?"  Where have I rejected education?


You know LJ, you remind me of a Pastor I know of.  Says he has the gift of discerning God's Word.  Often times would say that people would mistake his knowledge and authority for arrogance.  He's split 8 churches in his preaching career.  I wonder how many no longer go to church because of his arrogance.



Lowjack said:


> Since your understanding of the bible In english is equal or better than my Hebrew understanding ,would you care to comment why Jesus did this
> 
> When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay
> John 9;6



Why would I need to know Hebrew to translate something written in Greek?


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## Huntinfool (Oct 7, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> You don't have to be Jewish to learn the Hebrew language.  You don't have to be from Greece to understand the Greek text of the NT...



...AND you don't have to be able to speak or read any of those languages in order to understand God's word.

God is the author and originator of languages.  It was he that caused us to speak in different tounges and it was he who authored the scriptures....both Old and New Test.

Are we so arrogant as to think that God assumed we would all learn to speak Greek and Hebrew so that we could understand what he put in there?  Really?


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## earl (Oct 7, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> ...AND you don't have to be able to speak or read any of those languages in order to understand God's word.
> 
> God is the author and originator of languages.  It was he that caused us to speak in different tounges and it was he who authored the scriptures....both Old and New Test.
> 
> Are we so arrogant as to think that God assumed we would all learn to speak Greek and Hebrew so that we could understand what he put in there?  Really?





Silly man . That's why He gave us Lowjack.


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 7, 2009)

Do any of you have a dictionary/concordance in the back of your bibles? I do. 
Why? 
Because knowing SOME of the original language meaning, as well as the tenses they use are important in understanding what was written. 
There can be no dispute about that. 
Do you have to be fluent? No.


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## Tim L (Oct 7, 2009)

I didn't want to jump into this one; but just a couple of things.  I don't like to talk (pro or con) too much about someone I do not know personally...I do not know Lowjack anymore than I know all but a handfull of people on this forum...That's just a fact....However, I do know a number of messianic christians, have attended their temple and have had many of them attend our chapel services on a regular basis...they consider themselves Jews and followers of christ also and have traditions very firmly rooted in the New Testament as well as the Torah...they are (IMO)as "christian" as any of us, probably more so than some..If anything, I would say their a natural restuaration (yes, butchered spelling) of the original church....Remember the original followers of christ still considered themselves Jews.

But, again before anyone says too much about what the messianic movement is or is not, they should first attend some of their services and get to know some in person....only thing I can't get the hang of is (for obvious reasons) the songs are in Hebrew and the reading from right to left...


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## Huntinfool (Oct 7, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> There can be no dispute about that.



Ooo...Ooo...I dispute.  


Guess there actually CAN be a dispute about it, huh?


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## Lowjack (Oct 7, 2009)

Rouster said:


> I didn't want to jump into this one; but just a couple of things.  I don't like to talk (pro or con) too much about someone I do not know personally...I do not know Lowjack anymore than I know all but a handfull of people on this forum...That's just a fact....However, I do know a number of messianic christians, have attended their temple and have had many of them attend our chapel services on a regular basis...they consider themselves Jews and followers of christ also and have traditions very firmly rooted in the New Testament as well as the Torah...they are (IMO)as "christian" as any of us, probably more so than some..If anything, I would say their a natural restuaration (yes, butchered spelling) of the original church....Remember the original followers of christ still considered themselves Jews.
> 
> But, again before anyone says too much about what the messianic movement is or is not, they should first attend some of their services and get to know some in person....only thing I can't get the hang of is (for obvious reasons) the songs are in Hebrew and the reading from right to left...


Thanks, I don't think their objections is with Messianics in general ,I think is with me personally.
I made a mistake of trying to feed meat to babes and they choked on it.
But that's good advice, everyone should visit a real messianic Shull and see how we worship as the Apostles did
and learn some original text.
But from what I read non need to do that, they are graduates of the internet Cementery I mean seminary.com


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 7, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Ooo...Ooo...I dispute.
> 
> 
> Guess there actually CAN be a dispute about it, huh?



Good grief Charlie Brown...


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## earl (Oct 7, 2009)

Best I can tell a shull is a synagogue . Show me synagogue of Christ. It seems you have a foot in Judaism and a foot in Christianity. I'm choking on what you are feeding and tastes like bull.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 8, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Since your understanding of the bible In english is equal or better than my Hebrew understanding ,would you care to comment why Jesus did this
> 
> When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay
> John 9;6



I'll go ahead and humor you with my knowledge

btw...who sinned? this man or his parents

Okay...he used clay to "create" this man's eyes.  Christ created this world...He created this man's eyes as well.  Amazing the synergy this has with Gen 1.  However, some don't believe in the creation account which might make this difficult to explain.



Lowjack said:


> But from what I read non need to do that, they are graduates of the internet Cementery I mean seminary.com



You generalize about people you've never met.  Your lack of reading comprehension based on prior posts is surprising based on your self-promoted level of education.



earl said:


> I'm choking on what you are feeding and tastes like bull.



Hmmm...so that is what it tastes like


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## Diogenes (Oct 8, 2009)

Lowjack asks:  “ . . . would you care to comment why Jesus did this

When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay”

Um, so that the blind man could see all the signs that the world will end next Thursday, and would have time to get his affairs in order?

Is that a good guess?


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