# To all...



## runs with scissors (Aug 7, 2012)

This my favorite place on the forum...I truly enjoy seeing all the great finds!


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## fish hawk (Aug 7, 2012)

Me too......Lets see some more!!!


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## Paymaster (Aug 7, 2012)

One of my fav's as well.


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## fish hawk (Aug 7, 2012)

Good thread, even better with pics!!!


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## oyster (Aug 7, 2012)

last week was my best week ever, all from food plots


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## Nicodemus (Aug 7, 2012)

oyster said:


> last week was my best week ever, all from food plots





Very nice!!


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## dpoole (Aug 8, 2012)

Awesome finds !!!!!


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## fish hawk (Aug 8, 2012)

Congrats oyster,awesome finds!!!


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## oyster (Aug 8, 2012)

I'm pretty new to collecting, I think the top is a Tallahassee dalton? 2 hernandos, one Bolen bevel and not sure about the bout left? Thanks guys


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## alan (Aug 8, 2012)

oyster said:


> last week was my best week ever, all from food plots



Awesome points!


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## Dirtroad Johnson (Aug 8, 2012)

oyster said:


> last week was my best week ever, all from food plots



nice find,thanks for sharing.


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## Son (Aug 8, 2012)

Wow, wish we had some food plots that produced like that.

Here's one of the largest Coral Citrus points i've ever found


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## Bone pile (Aug 8, 2012)

VERY NICE, son that is a screamer
Bone pile


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## Bow Only (Aug 8, 2012)

That is one nice food plot.  Not a Tallahasse, but a great point.


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## DFBoys (Aug 14, 2012)

That Tallahassee would be awesome if the left ear didnt have a chip


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## Son (Aug 14, 2012)

I agree with Bow, that's a fine Safety Harbor, usually found associated with Hernando points. Woodland period. 400 BC-400 AD


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## Son (Aug 14, 2012)

But then, it depends on who's book you look in as to what type it may be called. The Safety Harbor point was named prior to 1962, and published in 1962. The Tallahassee type was named by Bullen several years later. When in doubt go to the beginning of typology for the names applied.

Not debating, merely supplying information for those interested.


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## oyster (Aug 14, 2012)

So is a Tallahassee dalton and safety harbor the same point that's got two names? Or is there a difference? Any ideas on the bottom left son?


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## Bow Only (Aug 15, 2012)

oyster said:


> So is a Tallahassee dalton and safety harbor the same point that's got two names? Or is there a difference? Any ideas on the bottom left son?



Different points.  Tallahassees are old as evidenced by being hard to find in fields.  Safety Harbors are Woodland and are common.  They have the same shape.  Tallhassees are raw material, Saftey Harbors are usually heat treated material.


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## oyster (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks for the info


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## dalton257 (Aug 15, 2012)

Bow only and Son are right but a lot of people do call that a Tallahassee. A lot of confusion set in once people started calling safety harbor points tallahasses. I dont know how it got started but I find myself calling them safety harbors around some people and tallahassee around others.


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## Bow Only (Aug 16, 2012)

dalton257 said:


> Bow only and Son are right but a lot of people do call that a Tallahassee. A lot of confusion set in once people started calling safety harbor points tallahasses. I dont know how it got started but I find myself calling them safety harbors around some people and tallahassee around others.



It depends on when you learned typology.  I learned typology in the early 80's and went by Bullen's definition.  I haven't found any new or better info to make me change.  Several books have come out since then that changed the time frame for Tallahassees.  The problem is, what I found and learned hasn't changed, the new books got it wrong and shouldn't have changed the terminology. When those books came out, I had more experience in the field and knew more than the author.  Some folks think this is a touchy subject but it's not.  I know what I know and I learned it by spending a heck of a lot of time studying the subject.  There were only a couple of older folks that spent more time studying this and they called the points the same thing I did.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.


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## fish hawk (Aug 16, 2012)

Bow Only said:


> It depends on when you learned typology.  I learned typology in the early 80's and went by Bullen's definition.  I haven't found any new or better info to make me change.  Several books have come out since then that changed the time frame for Tallahassees.  The problem is, what I found and learned hasn't changed, the new books got it wrong and shouldn't have changed the terminology. When those books came out, I had more experience in the field and knew more than the author.  Some folks think this is a touchy subject but it's not.  I know what I know and I learned it by spending a heck of a lot of time studying the subject.  There were only a couple of older folks that spent more time studying this and they called the points the same thing I did.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.


I thought it was because there found  mainly on woodland sites.


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## Son (Aug 16, 2012)

Bottom left, i would call that a Savannah River, Late Archaic. A note about my experience on typology, especially Florida. SE Al, and South Ga. Been studying typology since around 1970. but began collecting many years before that, sometime around the mid 1950's when i found my first point. A coral Marion, dug it up at 4810 30th Street, Tampa Fl. while burying fish remains. I even knew the point names collectors used before Ripley Bullen came along in 1968. He met with several collectors in the Bay area, but didn't take any of their advice on names. He did take in some of their knowledge and published it as his own. And that's common with some professionals. 1968 Bullen changed the Florida names, and in doing so, adopted some names already in use in other states, some of em are wrong. But he had limited data at the time. Much like most collectors had at the time. I remember when a collector couldn't find any information on Indian artifacts. Not so today, the market is flooded with books, many of which are published without experience needed to do so. That is why there's so much confusion. Many of the older (I like to call us Senior collectors) are passing away as the years pass. Not many of us left. And those collectors most all have many years of in the dirt experience. Excavating provided much more information than surface hunting. And is more thorough than reading or hearing others accounts. Bullen named most of the types in his first book of 68, then revised and added more in 1975. The Kolomoki has a few of those books available, but not forsale. New members receive a free copy.
Now, my opinion about Tallahassee and Santa Fe points. I believe they are both the same type point, some are serrated, some not. We find more serrations on several types the farther north we go in Florida. Less as we go south to the Tampa area. I've personally dug Tallahassee/Sante Fe points associated with Simpsons. That alone seperates them from Daltons. I place them as middle Paleo, before Suwannee. Safety Harbor points were first named by Dr. Malwin of Florida sometime before 1962 and published in print in 1962. SH points are always found associated with Hernando points, and have many variations during the Woodland Period. The woodland point has nothing to do with the Safety Harbor cultural period, which is named after Safety Harbor on Tampa Bay.


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## Son (Aug 16, 2012)

How i judge the experience of a collector on typology and what is associated with what.
By how many years in the field excavating, and how many personal finds they can account for.
Remember, much is learned not only from whole points, but with everything found associated with em. Including brokes, attempts that didn't turn out and exhausted forms. Preforms, cores, debitage etc. Lot more to it, than just looking at a shape.


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## fish hawk (Aug 16, 2012)

Top two below the one are Hernando's.Both woodland points.I dont understand why some folks get so upset over the Tallahassee vs.Santa Fe. debate?Do you find Santa Fe's anywhere but florida or are they distributed throughout the tri states area?


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## Bow Only (Aug 16, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> Top two below the one are Hernando's.Both woodland points.I dont understand why some folks get so upset over the Tallahassee vs.Santa Fe. debate?Do you find Santa Fe's anywhere but florida or are they distributed throughout the tri states area?



Because an author with little personal typology experience put the Santa Fe as a Woodland point.  It is not.  I have found dozens of Safety Harbors and only one broken Santa Fe.


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## fish hawk (Aug 16, 2012)

I like how this thread went from a guy saying how much he liked the primitive skills section and seeing everyones finds to a discussion on typology.and all it took was one word,Tallahassee........I have some good friends that are farmers who have some killer collections.they dont really know anything about typology and dont really care.To them the big ones are spear points and the little ones are arrowheads,,,It's like an old farmer told me one time,you found it you call it whatever the H!!! you want.I like his philosophy.


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## wombraider1 (Aug 16, 2012)

Nice finds, braj.  really like hernandos.  awesome tallahassee or santa fe or whatever you would like to call it.


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## benosmose (Aug 16, 2012)

Thats one precious food plot nice finds for years much less same week thanks for posting


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## Bow Only (Aug 17, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> I like how this thread went from a guy saying how much he liked the primitive skills section and seeing everyones finds to a discussion on typology.and all it took was one word,Tallahassee........I have some good friends that are farmers who have some killer collections.they dont really know anything about typology and dont really care.To them the big ones are spear points and the little ones are arrowheads,,,It's like an old farmer told me one time,you found it you call it whatever the H!!! you want.I like his philosophy.




If someone posts inaccurate information, the least I can do is subtly correct it.  I would think that the guys who just started into artifacts would appreciate that.


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## florida boy (Aug 17, 2012)

This is the main reason I quit posting pictures of my finds. Everyone KNOWS they are right . I still love to look at others findings . Just dont like to argue about a theory....its about like arguing about politics or religion


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## fish hawk (Aug 17, 2012)

Bow Only said:


> If someone posts inaccurate information, the least I can do is subtly correct it.  I would think that the guys who just started into artifacts would appreciate that.


He wasn't asking though!


florida boy said:


> This is the main reason I quit posting pictures of my finds. Everyone KNOWS they are right . I still love to look at others findings . Just dont like to argue about a theory....its about like arguing about politics or religion



I agree....Ive got a lot to say but I'm gonna just bite my tongue and let the experts carry on!!!


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## dalton257 (Aug 17, 2012)

Regaurdless of type those are some nice finds. Those hernandos are killers. Maybe you should expand those food plots, oh and bottom plow them also


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## Bow Only (Aug 17, 2012)

dalton257 said:


> Regaurdless of type those are some nice finds. Those hernandos are killers. Maybe you should expand those food plots, oh and bottom plow them also



Weren't those days when everyone bottom plowed nice!


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## Son (Aug 17, 2012)

It would be easy to refrain from providing knowledge. But i'm sure some people appreciate the information. I would. Such information has recently been whole heartily accepted on many facebook arrow/artifact pages. Everyone isn't satisfied with disinformation.  The hobby is growing with people wanting to learn, with a majority who wants to learn correct typology. For those who don't care, that's their porogative.
Discussing artifacts is nothing like arguing religion or politics.


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## oyster (Aug 17, 2012)

dalton257 said:


> Regaurdless of type those are some nice finds. Those hernandos are killers. Maybe you should expand those food plots, oh and bottom plow them also



I would like to try digging around the locations that these were found but I dont know where to start is there a method or is it more of a shot in the dark?


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## Son (Aug 17, 2012)

To start, begin with small test holes to see how down the material goes, flakes and such. Sift all dirt until you get a good hole going when you decide to start digging. Once a good hole is made, shave the walls of the hole very carefully with a very sharp shovel. Never tunnel under an over burden as it can colapse one ya.


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## oyster (Aug 17, 2012)

Thanks son for the info


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## Son (Aug 17, 2012)

You're welcome. Old fingers mess up some words, so bear with me. I like to find some evidence of occupation before digging. Gopher holes, armadillo holes can give some clues. Sometimes, there will be no clues, but you already have some good clues. So, here's how i do my test holes.
About 15 yards apart to decide the extent of the site. I remember, some of the best points i've found were outside the main site. Lost, stashed on purpose or kids scattered some. We'll never know. Look for burned material, dark soil etc.  In one great site i remember, the accumulations were actually about 15 yards apart. Sure wish i could find another site like that. In one spot, found over fifty whole points in a small area of about 4 feet square. Appeared to be where a fellow was removing exhausted points, and replacing em with new ones. All had good shape left to em. 
Good luck, and let us see what you find.


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