# Cedar Creek Advise?



## Diamondbbtr (Apr 23, 2008)

I've been looking around and trying to find some info. about wma around the Milledgeville/Baldwin/Jones counties area and found Cedar Creek.  I have been hunting private land all my life and don't have any access to any when I'm in college.  I was just wondering if anybody could give me some advise on bowhunting Cedar Creek? Anytime would be a great help..thanks.


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## Timberchicken (Apr 23, 2008)

Contact smanville123, he knows Cedar Creek well.


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## Diamondbbtr (Apr 23, 2008)

Thanks, I will.


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## 7Mag Hunter (Apr 24, 2008)

You might want to pick up an Oconee Natl Forest map at the
district Ranger HQ just outside of Eatonton...Lots of public
land north of Cedar Creek around Eatonton, and east of
Monticello along the Ocmulgee River and some that borders
Piedmont Wildlife Refuge on the north side....It also shows
good detail of Cedar Creek, Piedmont, and Redlands roads and
creeks......


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## Diamondbbtr (Apr 24, 2008)

Thanks,  are the rules for Natl. Forest similar to those on WMAs?


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## ratman (Apr 24, 2008)

I,ve Hunted Cedar Creek For 11 Years My Buddies & I Have Taken Several Nice Deer There I Was With Johnnie Wise When He Took A 133 Class Buck In 1999- Would Be Glad To Help With Some Hunting Locations Email Me - My Computer At Home Is Busted So Might Take Me Awile To Get Back To U-good Wma To Hunt


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## ABBYS DAD (Apr 24, 2008)

we dont need any more hunters there! 
they have cut alot of timber and burnt alot this year. pine beetles have enjoyed the wma and they dont need a wma stamp!


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## ratman (Apr 25, 2008)

u r right abby,s dad they are cutting a lot this year, they had trees marked to cut in my hunting spot , we'll see come this fall


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## ABBYS DAD (Apr 28, 2008)

Oh I Cant Wait For Deer Season. All Of That Cutting And Burning Will Bring Back The Deer Into The Hardwoods. The Pine Thicket That Was Across From Me Was Thinned Out So That Forces The Deer To The More Open Hardwoods. I Expect A Good Deer Season, If We Can Keep All Of The Intruders Away!


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## Model 11 (Apr 28, 2008)

The only problem with Cedar Creek is that the old biologist retired and new guy (Killmaster) and that is his real name ) is now in charge and has opened the place up to "doe days galore". Over the past several years they have slowly opened it to much. Now its starting to be a mediocre place to hunt. Too many doe days. Too many people and open way too much.....years ago it was chocked full of deer but now.....    its typical public land.  average, nothing great...... 
and I still kill deer down there.....just have to work harder.


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## C.Killmaster (Apr 29, 2008)

Model 11 said:


> The only problem with Cedar Creek is that the old biologist retired and new guy (Killmaster) and that is his real name ) is now in charge and has opened the place up to "doe days galore". Over the past several years they have slowly opened it to much. Now its starting to be a mediocre place to hunt. Too many doe days. Too many people and open way too much.....years ago it was chocked full of deer but now.....    its typical public land.  average, nothing great......
> and I still kill deer down there.....just have to work harder.



We added 3 doe days to the first hunt, that's it.  There were 44 more does killed on that particular hunt since these days were added.  As a whole, there were 225 does killed last season on Cedar Creek.  This breaks down to 3.6 does killed per square mile.  In the Piedmont of Georgia, killing 5 adult does per square mile will maintain the population, less will increase it.  I base my management decisions on scientifically sound wildlife management principles.  The management strategy for Cedar Creek is for high hunter success, and it will stay that way.  I have no intentions of decreasing the population on Cedar Creek.


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## rolltide (Apr 29, 2008)

c.killmaster - i was wondering if anything was or will be done in the future at cedar creek to stop the mexicans from conducting deer drives.i had a friend who reported this last year and as far as we know nothing was done about it . has the laws changed about drives and wma's,not griping but sure don't like it being done where you are hunting when they walkl right past the stand. thanks rolltide.


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## Scrub Buck (Apr 29, 2008)

C Killmaster,

Why are portions of Cedar Creek being controlled burned during turkey nesting season?  Seems to me nests are being destroyed.


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## Model 11 (Apr 29, 2008)

C.Killmaster said:


> We added 3 doe days to the first hunt, that's it.  There were 44 more does killed on that particular hunt since these days were added.  As a whole, there were 225 does killed last season on Cedar Creek.  This breaks down to 3.6 does killed per square mile.  In the Piedmont of Georgia, killing 5 adult does per square mile will maintain the population, less will increase it.  I base my management decisions on scientifically sound wildlife management principles.  The management strategy for Cedar Creek is for high hunter success, and it will stay that way.  I have no intentions of decreasing the population on Cedar Creek.



Years ago all Cedar Creek had was 3 or 4 check in hunts (3 BO days and one doe day on Saturday), followed by the ES AC Hunt for 3 days after Christmas. I recall seeing 50 plus hunters (all in line)  checking out bucks on opening day. Now you all (DNR) have opened it up (doe days) supposedly to increase the body weight of the herd. What you all do not understand  based on you saying..." In the Piedmont of Georgia, killing 5 adult does per square mile will maintain the population, less will increase it" is that Cedar Creek is Public Land where the rule is "If its brown its down!". Everything gets shot. 

Also, you are very naive to think that your sign out sheet is an accurate reflection of what people are taking off the place. How many people do you really think drive all the way back to the check station to sign a deer (buck or doe) out on a sign in hunt? Your lucky if 1/2 do. So 44 does could really means 88. And the same goes for the bucks. Whats the incentive? There is none.

To me and my circle of hunters, it isnt so much the kill but more the knowledge and visible proof of seeing deer that matters. Mr Killmaster....Ive hunted Cedar Creek for 16 years and am now seeing less deer. I shot 3 bucks on the different hunts down there this past season. Not because theres alot of deer down there but because I know the place. The doe days are killing the place. And this observation isnt based on just last season. 

I am afraid Cedar Creek is headed toward becoming another "Redlands". Sure there's deer on Redlands (for the first week) but thereafter it stinks. All the pressure and doe days take there toll. According to Carl Deletori and Haven BarnHill (is he still over Redlands?) Redlands is chocked full of deer. Once again based on an honesty system of signing deer out. Look at the sign out sheets 2 weeks into the season. Questionable.

I  really believe Carl pushes the doe days because it makes his job easier. Think about it....if all you have are doe days theres less need to do road blocks checking for licensees and enforcement activities looking for illegally harvested does...Why bother....its all doe days....What is really disturbing is that it looks like the Feds manage the Oconee National Forest better than the state manages Redlands. At least the Feds recognize the need to sustain a stable doe herd and keep the first 2 weeks of the season BO unlike the state which has Redlands wide open for does from day 1. 

Cedar Creek will follow suit. Its an easy way for DNR Management to cope with a shrinking budget and manpower issues. Just make all days DOE DAYS. If all you have are DOE DAYS you can get away with running one ranger all month long......

Also DNR took over the 10,000 or so acres from the Oconee National Forest and because of all the flack from the hunters complaining about that move you all opened the rests of Cedar Creek up to ES Days. Why the doe days? Why not BO? Give people access and opportunity but BO.....

I am telling you there are less deer on Cedar Creek now than in years past. Your sign out sheet data is flawed. People are reporting less than half of what is really being taken off the place. Cut the doe days in 1/2 next year.


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## C.Killmaster (Apr 30, 2008)

rolltide said:


> c.killmaster - i was wondering if anything was or will be done in the future at cedar creek to stop the mexicans from conducting deer drives.i had a friend who reported this last year and as far as we know nothing was done about it . has the laws changed about drives and wma's,not griping but sure don't like it being done where you are hunting when they walkl right past the stand. thanks rolltide.


The laws on deer drives have not changed.  That was investigated, but no evidence was found.  Please continue to report this activity as it is difficult to enforce and they must be caught in the act.



Scrub Buck said:


> C Killmaster,
> 
> Why are portions of Cedar Creek being controlled burned during turkey nesting season?  Seems to me nests are being destroyed.


Prescribed fire on Cedar Creek is the responsibility of the USFS.  DNR has no say in the timing of burns.


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## C.Killmaster (Apr 30, 2008)

Model 11,
I understand that you see fewer deer than you did probably 5 or 10 years ago, I don't deny that.  However, at that period of time there were too many deer throughout the entire state.  We have the responsibility to balance the deer herd with hunter success/satisfaction, herd health, and habitat quality.  My intentions are to maintain Cedar Creek as a high hunter success area, but not to the point of sacrificing habitat quality.  With that said, the proper density should be around 30 deer per square mile, higher than most WMAs.  

I understand completely that not all deer are signed out.  I take that into consideration when setting seasons.  This occurs on every WMA throughout the state and has for years, so it's not a new concept.

The rule of 5 adult does harvested per square mile to maintain population size refers to the primary breeding population.  It does not mean that other deer cannot be harvested for it to work.  Look at it this way, with a post-hunt population of 30 deer/square mile and assuming a balanced sex ratio you have about 15 does.  Conservatively, these does will produce 1.3 fawns and be subject to 25% non-harvest mortality throughout the year.  This leaves a recruitment of about 15 deer/square mile annually.  Last year, there were 560 deer (reported) harvested on Cedar Creek.  That's 9 deer/square mile.  Assuming that several deer are unaccounted for, the population is still not decreasing.  It did decrease several years back, but not currently.

That's very oversimplified, but there are no intentions to decimate the herd to resolve manpower issues.  Also, after the 2-year regulation cycle, if the data shows that fewer deer need to be harvested and numerous hunters are dissatisfied, then I will reduce the doe days.  Just don't assume that I'm trying to kill all the deer on Cedar Creek.  My job is to serve in the interest of hunters and properly manage a resource, and I take that very seriously.

Haven now works for SCDNR.  He left GA a few years ago.


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## magnumrecovery (Apr 30, 2008)

My biggest complaint is all to camping. It would make more sense to put all the campers into one or two large  camping areas not all over the woods. I mean why would you want to cook, make all that racket, talk, etc. where you and others are trying to hunt.


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## sman (Apr 30, 2008)

Reading this I can't help but give my .02 worth.

I have hunted Cedar Creek for almost 20 years.  I killed my first turkey there in 1990.  I know the place inside and out.  Back in the early 90's there were not a lot of hunting dates and very few doe days.  Man you would see deer everywhere.  I remember every year DNR and state troopers would have a road block on hwy212 checking drivers and hunters on the first hunt of Cedar Creek.

During bow season Cedar Creek is a play ground.  Hardly ever run into anybody.  Gates are closed and I think that along with the heat keeps numbers down.

The last hunt I went to on Cedar Creek I counted over 300 shots that day.  I was scared to walk out.  The number of hunters that sign in on that first hunt is unreal.  It is still one of the top non quota hunts in GA.  However, the deer population has dropped tremendously.  You used to have to drive down 212 with one foot on the brakes because of all of the deer.  I admit the population was to high back in the day.  I like others though am starting to worry that this is going to turn into the Redlands.
Redlands bow season saw deer, after gun season if you saw a deer it was like you won the lottery.  I still hunt Cedar Creek at least once a year.  The December BO hunt during the week is pretty open.  27,000 acres and an  old time local boy, I can find a deer there.  I think the biggest complaints you are going to hear are from hunters who don't know the place as well.  Last time I hunted it I saw 15 deer in one afternoon.  The old spots I used to hunt, that were close to the road and easy to get to, are now flooded by to many hunters.  After the first hunt the deer there disappear.  I would like to see the doe days cut a little bit.  Those of us who choose to hunt there just need to realize this is public land.  We have to learn to adapt and realize we are going to get company on just about every hunt.  However with all of this being said I think there should be an IQ test for everyone that hunts there.  MAN THERE ARE SOME IDOTS ON THIS PLACE!!!  Wear your orange, wave a flashlight, and whistle the whole way in and out.


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## ABBYS DAD (Apr 30, 2008)

Well hear is my 2 cents too.....Why did Hardees go out of business in Monticello? That is the real tragedy! No place to get a biscuit before you sign in!!!!!  Anyway i was born into the Cedar Creek deer hunting tradition. My grandaddy and my uncles started hunting there in the 1960's. They killed alot of deer out of one spot for a very long time. That all changed when more hunters started showing up and the planting of pines kept the deer hid. A large part of the problem is the quality of people that come down there now. It was once a friendly place and people would not walk in on you but every year now i have folks who are attracted to your vehicle and come right in the woods where you are at. I have good memories of days where it was only me and my family at one spot and now you got folks who follow you from the check station to your spot. Folks just dont have courtesy for anybody anymore down there. I wish they didnt have the October hunt at all. Just start having that hunt the first weekend in November Thurs -Sat hunt BO with Saturday being ES. Then have the usual 2 week BO hunt around Thanksgiving. End the regular hunt with a Thurs-Sat ES hunt in December and end the year with the traditional A/C ES hunt. It is way to hot still in October on that first hunt. Let the pre-rut kick in and start that hunt in November. That December hunt is my favorite, its a real sleeper. My brother killed a 122 class buck on that hunt in 2000.  And I think the burns and the clear cutting thats going on will make a great 2008 deer hunting season at the Creek.


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## Scrub Buck (Apr 30, 2008)

C. Killmaster,

Who do I need to talk to at the USFS?  Seems like with a 1.1 poult count statewide, what just happened needs to stop.


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## Model 11 (May 1, 2008)

Scrub Buck said:


> C. Killmaster,
> 
> Who do I need to talk to at the USFS?  Seems like with a 1.1 poult count statewide, what just happened needs to stop.



Start with Erin Bronk, she's the ranger over the Oconee Natioanl Forest.


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## FerrisBueller (May 6, 2008)

Interesting comments about Cedar Creek. Ive hunted it for years and have to say that the deer population is way down and hunter numbers are way up. Why all the doe days? I have to agree with Model 11s observation that DNR pushes doe days so that they dont have to have as many officers working to enforce the game laws on those days.


Mr Killmaster.....your destroying the place with all the doe days.  DNRs formula: Rising coyotes + increasing hunters+ public land mentality, justifies increasing the doe days= LESS DEER.   Brilliant Idea!!!!!!!!


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## Gaswamp (May 6, 2008)

Is Cedar Creek WMA actually part of the Oconee National Forest?  Does the state lease it?  Also, is Oconee National Forest and Piedmont National Forest the same thing?


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## foodplotplanter (May 6, 2008)

cedar creek is alot of o.n.f. land. used to be some timber co. land but i think most has been pulled out for big $ profits.
o.n.f and piedmont are not the same thing.both owned by the fed.gov. piedmont has a lot fewer open days for hunting.all quota hunt by drawing except handicap hunt.
piedmont has 1 handicap hunt for 3 days, 1 b.o. hunt for 3 days,1 primitive weapon e.s.hunt for 3 days,and 2 more e.s. hunts that are 3 days each.all hunting on piedmont is done by the end of november


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## Gaswamp (May 6, 2008)

thanks foodplotplanter


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## skoaleric (May 17, 2008)

well heres what i think....First of all, I just finished working in Milledgeville, driving hwy 212 every day for the last 3 months....I DID NOT see the first deer around the WMA. I turkey hunted every chance I got, and only seen a couple hens. 
I took my nephew a couple years ago on the A/C hunt, and there is NO WAY I would ever take another child on that hunt. There were more people on that one place than cows in Texas!!!!
Also, last year during one of the hunts, I killed a 140 class buck off OCNF, and stopped by the cooler at 441 and 212, and all the deer I seen there that the people killed off Cedar Creek were either does, or spikes... SPIKES???? and you call this SOUND management?...LOLOL. 
I wish the state would go to a statewide 8 pt. rule, no watter what the place. 
BUT, look on the bright side, in a couple years, after everyone has killed all the deer, we can have one heck of a hog hunting area....there will be plenty of food for them...LOL.
Besides, doesn't matter anyways, we can't even get the Game Managers to keep the roads clean and kept up. Anytime they don't feel like doing their job, they will just stick up a "road closed"sign.
Eric


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## FerrisBueller (May 18, 2008)

DNR needs to cut the doe days in half on Cedar Creek before they destroy the place. Mr. Killmaster.....listen to the people.


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## C.Killmaster (May 19, 2008)

This thread has gone way off topic.  If you have specific questions about management, feel free to send me a PM.  If you have comments or suggestions on how particular WMAs should be managed you may provide that input at a public meeting during the next regulation cycle (January 2009) or send an email through the DNR website.


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## skoaleric (May 19, 2008)

The topic was "CEDAR CREEK" wasn't it?
Ignore the people if you want to, thats what DNR and the particular WMA managers do best! 
This entire thread goes to show that WMA management and the STATE is going to do whatever it wants to, and will continue to make and enforce it's own rules and regulations. 
Public hearings are only a way for hunters and fisherman to voice their opinions. But DNR seems to think that our opinions are like...well you know the rest...and their opinions are the only one's that matter.
Keep up the good work Killmaster, you are doing a great job at avoiding us.....makes your job easier....lol.
Eric


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## ABBYS DAD (May 19, 2008)

I fell your pain eric. Management went out the window along with deer tags. They dont know anything without actual data from hunters. Cedar Creek is a great example of what happens when you give up on something great. I wish they had WMA tags that would require hunters to tag deer and then turn the tag over to DNR with stats about the deers sex,age and weight. Sort of like what the Feds do at Piedmont. When we get a WMA license they should issue the hunter tags so that they can get accurate information. How about one buck and one doe tag per WMA license that applys only for kills on WMA's that are not quota hunts or check out hunts (freebies)??? Or require all hunts at Cedar Creek to be check out hunts instead of sign outs?? But that would require more man power there, which i thought thats what we pay DNR to do manage the state WMA's. So either issue tags which would solve the man power issue or post a ranger at the old house to be on hand during each hunt and weigh and pull jaw bones on each and every deer harvested. Oh and if DNR is reading, please go back to the old 2 bucks and 3 antlerless tags of old. Those were the good ol days! I miss them tags....


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## C.Killmaster (May 20, 2008)

skoaleric said:


> The topic was "CEDAR CREEK" wasn't it?
> Ignore the people if you want to, thats what DNR and the particular WMA managers do best!
> This entire thread goes to show that WMA management and the STATE is going to do whatever it wants to, and will continue to make and enforce it's own rules and regulations.
> Public hearings are only a way for hunters and fisherman to voice their opinions. But DNR seems to think that our opinions are like...well you know the rest...and their opinions are the only one's that matter.
> ...



No, the topic was looking for advise on hunting at Cedar Creek, not management.  I'm not avoiding anyone, I stated that anyone that wishes to further discuss this topic may send me a PM.  If you like, you may call me at my office.  I'm at the Region 4 office, the number is in the regs and on the website.  Or, if you like, you can come by the office and I'll be happy to discuss it with you.  Additionally, we do highly value publice input.  I have only heard a few complaints and out of the couple of thousand people that hunt Cedar Creek, that's a small percentage.  We will not make a significant change based on the opinions of only a few people.  If you don't think public input is taken into consideration, do a little research on what has recently transpired with the dove season changes.


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## FerrisBueller (May 22, 2008)

C.Killmaster said:


> This thread has gone way off topic.  If you have specific questions about management, feel free to send me a PM.  If you have comments or suggestions on how particular WMAs should be managed you may provide that input at a public meeting during the next regulation cycle (January 2009) or send an email through the DNR website.



January of 2009 will be to late. It means another season of wholesale slaughter and decimation of a once great deer herd.


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## Model 11 (May 26, 2008)

C.Killmaster said:


> No, the topic was looking for advise on hunting at Cedar Creek, not management.  I'm not avoiding anyone, I stated that anyone that wishes to further discuss this topic may send me a PM.  If you like, you may call me at my office.  I'm at the Region 4 office, the number is in the regs and on the website.  Or, if you like, you can come by the office and I'll be happy to discuss it with you.  Additionally, we do highly value publice input.  I have only heard a few complaints and out of the couple of thousand people that hunt Cedar Creek, that's a small percentage.  We will not make a significant change based on the opinions of only a few people.  If you don't think public input is taken into consideration, do a little research on what has recently transpired with the dove season changes.



Mr. Killmaster,

DNR does whatever it pleases. I watched Redlands go down the tubes for years, wrote letters, went to public hearings, telling em about the doe days,,  all for nothing. 
Its still horribly mismanaged and less than mediocre to deer hunt on. Just terrible. Now I see you are doing the same thing to Cedar Creek. To many doe days, no check in hunts, lack of law enforcement and the public land mentality, all leads to a deer herd destroyed. Why? Based on scientific wildlife management that does not take into consideration just how badly the doe days maul a herd. 

I appreciate the job you do. However, I question your reason why you insist on cutting the herd down to nothing by allowing everything to be killed. Makes no sense and will take years to repair the damage. Id rather not call you. This type of topic is better off out in the open. From the looks of it....I am not the only one that thinks you are destroying the deer herd of a once great WMA.


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## C.Killmaster (May 27, 2008)

Model 11 said:


> Mr. Killmaster,
> 
> DNR does whatever it pleases. I watched Redlands go down the tubes for years, wrote letters, went to public hearings, telling em about the doe days,,  all for nothing.
> Its still horribly mismanaged and less than mediocre to deer hunt on. Just terrible. Now I see you are doing the same thing to Cedar Creek. To many doe days, no check in hunts, lack of law enforcement and the public land mentality, all leads to a deer herd destroyed. Why? Based on scientific wildlife management that does not take into consideration just how badly the doe days maul a herd.
> ...



Model11,
I am not allowing everything to be killed on Cedar Creek.  As I stated before, there were only 3 doe days added bringing the total to 19 doe days for firearms season on Cedar Creek.  Redlands, which I do not manage, has a total of 58 firearms doe days.  I have no intentions of further increasing doe days; however, it would be irresponsible from a total habitat and herd management standpoint to cut the doe days in half.  You are most likely referring to a time when Cedar Creek had over 40 deer per square mile.  Managing a deer herd at that level in the Piedmont of Georgia is irresponsible and causes habitat destruction for every other species of wildlife.  I understand that you have hunted the area for many years and you may have a sentimental attachment to it, but I have to balance the wants of hunters with the health of an entire forest ecosystem.  Like it or not, the habitat on Cedar Creek has changed and cannot support as large of a deer herd.  The Forest Service has been unable to cut a substantial amount of timber over the last 10 years.  Less thinning and clearcutting equals less sunlight on the ground.  This equates to less understory vegetation, i.e. deer habitat.  With less deer habitat, the land cannot sustain a population of 40 deer per square mile without severe habitat destruction.  Do some research and you will find that deer populations rebound much faster than overbrowsed habitat.  I'm sorry that you feel this way, but I have to make decisions based on research, sound wildlife mangement principles, and public input.  There is simply no management strategy that will satisfy everyone and properly maintain a balanced ecosystem.  With that said, I'm not going post anymore on this subject.  I have stated my reasons and if you are still not satisfied, then I apologize.  Feel free to give me a call or you can stop by on one of the hunts and chew the fat or debate all you want.  I hunt public land almost exclusively, so don't think I don't share the impacts of management decisions with you.


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## Model 11 (Jun 2, 2008)

C.Killmaster said:


> Model11,
> I am not allowing everything to be killed on Cedar Creek.  As I stated before, there were only 3 doe days added bringing the total to 19 doe days for firearms season on Cedar Creek.  Redlands, which I do not manage, has a total of 58 firearms doe days.  I have no intentions of further increasing doe days; however, it would be irresponsible from a total habitat and herd management standpoint to cut the doe days in half.  You are most likely referring to a time when Cedar Creek had over 40 deer per square mile.  Managing a deer herd at that level in the Piedmont of Georgia is irresponsible and causes habitat destruction for every other species of wildlife.  I understand that you have hunted the area for many years and you may have a sentimental attachment to it, but I have to balance the wants of hunters with the health of an entire forest ecosystem.  Like it or not, the habitat on Cedar Creek has changed and cannot support as large of a deer herd.  The Forest Service has been unable to cut a substantial amount of timber over the last 10 years.  Less thinning and clearcutting equals less sunlight on the ground.  This equates to less understory vegetation, i.e. deer habitat.  With less deer habitat, the land cannot sustain a population of 40 deer per square mile without severe habitat destruction.  Do some research and you will find that deer populations rebound much faster than overbrowsed habitat.  I'm sorry that you feel this way, but I have to make decisions based on research, sound wildlife mangement principles, and public input.  There is simply no management strategy that will satisfy everyone and properly maintain a balanced ecosystem.  With that said, I'm not going post anymore on this subject.  I have stated my reasons and if you are still not satisfied, then I apologize.  Feel free to give me a call or you can stop by on one of the hunts and chew the fat or debate all you want.  I hunt public land almost exclusively, so don't think I don't share the impacts of management decisions with you.



Mr. Killmaster, Ill close with this. Years ago before you came along I asked the warden about Cedar Creeks Management  strategy and if he thought it would change? He told me that it would stay the same for 2 more years until the then current biologist retired or moved on or whatever. Afterwards he said it would probably change because a new biolgist would be coming on. Man was he right. You changed it all. 

The problem I have with even 19 doe days at Cedar Creek is that you all do not really know what exactly is being taken off the place and the volume of deer that are being killed. 

For example, on the ES CO Hunt my son and I hiked deep into a spot past these guys hunting camp. My son sees a doe and lets her walk. About 0530 we hear 2 shots and later walk out to our truck to find a Bubba at the gate with a doe and button buck strapped to a deer cart. You know what the guy says? "Hey man, You want these two deer?" We declined. You know later in the rabbit season  I found those two deer dumped in the woods. Guess Bubba gave em back to you all. Did you count these two?

I also rabbit hunt and walk all over Cedar Creek after deer season. This past winter in different locations I found 3 skulls of bucks  that had their racks hacked off and the bodies left to rot. So much for 4 points on one side hey? Did you count these three? Next year I am going to start taking pictures and mailing them in to you guys. 
And, the does. I recall 10+. Did you count these 10?

What about the coyotes? Do you consider what they take in terms of fawns? Cedar Creek is full of them. 

You know how many times I was checked on Cedar Creek by DNR in the deer and rabbit season in 2007/08?     Zero.
Not once. And I hit it hard this past season.

And, all the Plum Creek gates were left wide open in January and February. Wonder how many deer got jacked at night? 

Wonder how many I didn't find and how many you didn't count? How many times did somebody pop a doe or a buck in the morning or the evening and after dragging it out elect not to make the drive all the way to the check station to sign it out? Hmmm.........10-20-maybe 30, perhaps 40. ????????Well never know.

This past season on Cedar Creek for the first time I started thinking I was hunting Redlands because of the lack of deer I was seeing. 

These doe days dont have much to do with wildlife management. Its about manpower, budgets, and money. Dont kid yourself. Sign out hunts mean no rangers, no biologists to man the check station, and anything goes. 

The jist of it all,.... I give it 2 more years and Cedar Creek will be like Redlands. If you dont pop a deer in the first week.....you in for a long season......  

One other thing I never understood. You say the forest cant sustain 40 deer per square mile. The USFS has' nt cut in 10 years and I have yet to hear anything about GA DNR lobbying for timber harvesting to start up again in Cedar Creek even though many of the pine trees are now too big to be handled by any of the mill s around here. Where is the wildlife management? 

On top of it all ......I have yet  to see a deer starving to death on Cedar Creek. And we are no where near 40 deer per square mile. Yep! We need more doe days. For sure!


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## C.Killmaster (Jun 3, 2008)

Model11,
You can't make comparisons between anecdotal evidence and scientific data collection, it's apples and oranges.  What you don't seem to understand is that all wildlife management decisions are based on sampling and monitoring trends.  Sampling means that you don't (can't) count everything.  This is the most basic and standard fundamental of science.  I am very aware of the fact that some deer are not signed out on Cedar Creek.  This happens on every WMA, has for years, and the numbers are pretty consistent each year.  To draw conclusions, you have to look at how hunter effort, hunter numbers, and reported harvest relate.  

With respect to deer density, I did not say that there are 40 deer/square mile on Cedar Creek, I said there used to be.  Can 40 deer/square mile survive on Cedar Creek without starving? YES.  Can Cedar Creek sustain 40 deer/square mile without damage to the ecosystem? NO.  For Cedar Creek, 30 deer/square mile is an optimal compromise between hunting and current habitat conditions.  Furthermore, the only change that I have made to Cedar Creek since I have been the biologist was changing 3 buck only days to 3 either sex days.  This may change back in the next regulation cycle after I determine the effects on the harvest, but I can tell you that I will not add any more either sex days unless the population exceeds ecological carrying capacity.

You are correct in that budget and manpower are significant issues.  Our budget has stayed the same for years, yet the costs of operating have continued to increase.  We have vacancies that we can't fill.  This, however, does not affect the number of either sex days on a WMA though.  It does affect how many days are check-in versus sign-in.  Unfortunately, we have no control over these issues.  You, as a voter, as well as other hunters do have the power to resolve these issues.  

The reason that timber harvest has been suspended on Cedar Creek is a lawsuit filed against the federal government.  DNR has absolutely no control or sway on that subject.  I would love to see more timber harvest on all National Forests in GA as well.

I feel like I have explained deer management to you as clearly as I can.  If you still don't understand how I make management decisions, then I apologize.  As I stated before, you are more than welcome to call me or come by the office for further discussion.  If you care to do some research on managing wildlife, I can recommend several books that will explain all of these methods in finer detail.


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## foodplotplanter (Jun 3, 2008)

killmaster,you are comparing 30 deer psm to 40 deer psm.
i live in this area and i can tell you what i saw in the past and what i see now.
you say it used to be 40 deer psm years ago.i agree.at night you could ride from the caution light at 129/212 to gray and seeing 75 to 100 deer was not uncommon.
you say that it is now 30 deer psm.i disagree.take this same ride now, your lucky if you see 1 deer.on a real good night you may see 2 or 3.
no way can a reduction of only 10 deer psm  produce this kind of results.
i would say that the herd numbers are more inline with 10 to 15 deer psm.
i`m sure you will say this is not right but i`m not blind and i know what i don`t see around here.deer!!!
your reply to that would be......?


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## LKennamer (Jun 3, 2008)

*Not going to defend or attack management decisions,*

but the hunt dates/setup on Cedar Creek WMA are set the way the are for a variety of reasons.  That DOES include budgets, manpower, input from USFS (who owns most of it, it is not leased by DNR) as well as others.  The two year regulation cycle does tie the hands of managers, but it is not necessarily a bad thing.  In defense of Mr. Killmaster, he alone does not set any regulations on Cedar Creek, he can make recommendations, which are partially based on data and partially based on public input and other biologists within DNR.  From there, the final say is with the DNR Board, they can accept or reject that as they see fit.  I was the biologist for Cedar Creek for almost 7 years, I work in the private sector now, less politics!  My .02 cents.


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## C.Killmaster (Jun 3, 2008)

Foodplotplanter,
If in fact there were 10-15 deer psm, there would have been a steep steady decline in the harvest.  If that were true, there would have been virtually no deer killed last year at all.  At that density, we would have been harvesting nearly the entire deer population on Cedar Creek on an annual basis.  If you decimate a deer population in one year, tell me how the harvest is the same the next year.  Again, more anecdotal evidence that means very little.  Yes the population is lower than a few years back, but it is not that low.  It appears as though everything I've been taught about deer management is wrong.


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## Todd E (Jun 3, 2008)

Just curious Killmaster.........has anyone taken you up on your offer to come by face to face and talk or to call you and talk? I doubt they have, but I wish they would.........


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## C.Killmaster (Jun 4, 2008)

Todd E said:


> Just curious Killmaster.........has anyone taken you up on your offer to come by face to face and talk or to call you and talk? I doubt they have, but I wish they would.........



Nope, not one person has called or come by the office.  I'll gladly share all the information on Cedar Creek including all the data from years past.


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## foodplotplanter (Jun 4, 2008)

killmaster,i do not hunt cedar creek myself,but i do see what these guys are talking about when they say they don`t see deer like they used to.thats what i`m saying about driving down 129 at night.
you don`t see the deer anymore on this drive.
if the deer are still there as you say they are,where are they.why don`t we see them.going from seeing 75 to 100 deer to seeing 2 or 3?
explain that to us all.


and just to let you know,i`m avaiable any night that you would like to take this drive with me to prove my point.


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## Model 11 (Jun 5, 2008)

C.Killmaster said:


> Model11,
> You can't make comparisons between anecdotal evidence and scientific data collection, it's apples and oranges.  What you don't seem to understand is that all wildlife management decisions are based on sampling and monitoring trends.  Sampling means that you don't (can't) count everything.  This is the most basic and standard fundamental of science.  I am very aware of the fact that some deer are not signed out on Cedar Creek.  This happens on every WMA, has for years, and the numbers are pretty consistent each year.  To draw conclusions, you have to look at how hunter effort, hunter numbers, and reported harvest relate.
> 
> With respect to deer density, I did not say that there are 40 deer/square mile on Cedar Creek, I said there used to be.  Can 40 deer/square mile survive on Cedar Creek without starving? YES.  Can Cedar Creek sustain 40 deer/square mile without damage to the ecosystem? NO.  For Cedar Creek, 30 deer/square mile is an optimal compromise between hunting and current habitat conditions.  Furthermore, the only change that I have made to Cedar Creek since I have been the biologist was changing 3 buck only days to 3 either sex days.  This may change back in the next regulation cycle after I determine the effects on the harvest, but I can tell you that I will not add any more either sex days unless the population exceeds ecological carrying capacity.
> ...



Mr. Killmaster, 

Anecdotal...your right. Myself and everyone else who has posted a negative comment about the job DNR is doing on Cedar Creek ARE TOTALLY WRONG. Our observations are "anecdotal" and to be discareded as unscientific. We dont know what we are talking about. 

OK. Mr. Killmaster you are the one sitting on top of all the data collected at Cedar Creek for the past ........what? 20 years. Probably set out on a nice spreadsheet as you read this.   You have hunter numbers and harvest data  from back in 92 to say..... last year. Post it. Right here. Click and paste away.....Lets take a look at it. 

Consider this a formal request for the data. Put it out in the open. Its public record anyway. Lets see the numbers for  Cedar Creek since 92 right on through DNRs decison to open up the doe days in the last 3 years. Hunt dates, # of hunters checking and signing in,# of bucks harvested, # of does harvested,  etc....Please,  Post the data.


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## C.Killmaster (Jun 6, 2008)

Here's the data, enjoy.  I'll be glad to interpret anything you don't understand.  The 07-08 data is not yet summarized.


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## foodplotplanter (Jun 6, 2008)

killmaster,that shows just what everyone is saying
1977s and 1987s-  218 deer per year killed average.
1988 till present-441 deer  per year killed average.
thats more then double the average # deer per year killed for 20 years



thats what everyone is saying....you left the door wide open
everything that walks  is legal everyday to shoot and it`s being done.some people just can`t resist shooting any deer that walks by.thats when you have to use management tools to keep them trigger fingers from being so happy
thats where all the deer have gone
1988 -almost 19 deer per sq mile killed.that a slaughter




guess which time frame was the good ol days.
even if you don`t shoot everything you see,
seeing one makes hunting alot more fun.

it appears that everything you were taught about deer management may not be wrong but it does not produce the kind of results that make people happy


i`m not saying that how your manageing is wrong.
all i`m trying to do is get you to admit that there are not deer there like they used to be.


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## Outlaw Dawgsey Wales (Jun 7, 2008)

*All I know is when my daughter started going to GCSU couple years ago*

All we were told was when she goes home and comes back along Hwy.212 she better be on the look out for alot of deer.She said she hasn't seen that many.Not a local or even hunt there but if folks that live over that way and hunt the place say deer population is down,probably is some truth to it.


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## Tiger Rag (Jun 14, 2008)

foodplotplanter said:


> killmaster,that shows just what everyone is saying
> 1977s and 1987s-  218 deer per year killed average.
> 1988 till present-441 deer  per year killed average.
> thats more then double the average # deer per year killed for 20 years
> ...





From the data that was posted, that looks like a pretty stable population to me.  If you can harvest 350-400 deer a year every year for that many years in a row, I don't see how it could be a declining population.

Around 30% females in the harvest does not sound like they are killing every doe that walks.

And anyway -- I thought according to the past posts in this thread and the most vocal critics that 1992 was the good old days.

You all began your rants saying that things took a downturn in the last three years.  It takes a lot more hunter effort and a lot more time than that to drvie a population of deer into the ground.


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## Model 11 (Jun 16, 2008)

First off .........Thanks for the data Mr. Killmaster and your input. Years ago Haven would never part with it about Redlands. Wonder why? 

Now......But drive it into the ground they (DNR)  will. The data does not reflect what is really being taken off the wma. With sign out hunts anything goes.......

2007: 536 deer reportedly killed.

2000; 309 deer reportedly killed.

Which is more accurate? 2007 data is composed partially of voluntary harvest sign out (both check in/out and sign in/out) . 2000 is based on check out hunts. ( Mr Killmaster.....when exactly did DNR start doing away with the check out hunts?)

1995-2001 avg harvest: 348 deer

2002- 2007 avg harvest: 436 deer

The average is not 350 to 400. Its 436 deer for the past six years.  An increase of 88 deer over the previous  six year spread. Now this unscientific observation does not take into account Cedar Creeks acquisition of 10,000 more acres from the USFS.

Another couple of years like 2007 with 536 deer killed (many reported on the sign out hunts, many not) and Cedar Creek will be trashed.  

Mr Killmaster.....somewhere in this thread you mentioned how the USFS was not harvesting timber like they were in 80s and how it was irresponsible to have 40+ deer PSM on land that could not sustain that many deer. Can you answer this?  If i have never seen a deer starving to death on Cedar Creek, the coyote population is up, the USFS is not clear cutting (thus theoretically causing a decline in the population itself) and Iam seeing less deer .......why all the doe days? What are you trying to do?


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## Model 11 (Jun 16, 2008)

One more observation.........It is said that "Perception is 90% of reality". My perception and dare I say that of some of the other people who have made a comment on this thread, is that there are significantly less deer on Cedar Creek. I am seeing less deer, seeing more dead unclaimed deer, and seeing more people than ever. This has happened before on Redlands and is happening now on Cedar Creek. Is this really Wildlife Management or something else?


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## C.Killmaster (Jun 17, 2008)

Model 11,
The harvest does reflect the increase in acreage on Cedar Creek.  The harvest did increase in 2007, but take a look at the harvest per square mile.  There are no significant increases or decreases.

As to the decrease in check-in hunts, I would prefer to have more check-in than sign-in.  That is most definitely a manpower issue that I have no control over.  The voting public has more control over our budget than we do by whom they select to represent them, so I encourage you to do your part.

My statement regarding the number of deer that Cedar Creek can support refers to carrying capacity.  There are 3 types of carrying capacity: social, ecological, and biological.  Deer typically exceed ecological carrying capacity long before they exceed biological carrying capacity.  This means they can do extensive habitat damage long before you see noticeable decreases in antler quality and body weight, which is why you don't see starving deer.  Deer are what we call a keystone species, meaning that they have significant effects on habitat quality for a plethora of other wildlife species.  Please remember that Cedar Creek is a wildlife management area, not a deer management area.

With respect to posts about the "good ol' days" on Cedar Creek,  I have agreed several times that the population is much lower than it used to be, I have never denied that.  However, what I can't seem to get across is that the population was entirely too high at that period of time.  It is now at a reasonable and sustainable level.  If you disagree, I suggest you do some more reading on wildlife management; I've done mine.


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## Model 11 (Jun 17, 2008)

Mr. Killmaster, 

In your eyes "the population was entirely too high at that period of time. It is now at a reasonable and sustainable level." I disagree.
Redtop Mountains population  was too high, Hard Labor Creek was to high,   Cedar Creek has never been near their levels. Not in years. Your right. There are alot less deer on Cedar Creek now than in years past.  Why? The current managememt strategy will and has destroyed the population. At one time Cedar Creek had alot of deer. Now its becoming average. More than one person has stated this yet you defend DNRs policy wholeheartedly. 
DNR produces a product  on Cedar Creek. Deer. And product quality is low. Thats all I am saying. Its low and with all the doe days its gonna get lower. In the big picture I guess thats what DNR wants. Low deer harvest=low hunter numbers=less need for a Ranger to be around during a hunt. 

Mr. killmaster;  Can you explain the plethora of wildlife deer compete with in terms of habitat? Expand on this statement "Deer are what we call a keystone species, meaning that they have significant effects on habitat quality for a plethora of other wildlife species. Please remember that Cedar Creek is a wildlife management area, not a deer management area." Are you talking about squirrels and rabbits? turkeys? birds? Please get more specific?


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## bat (Jun 17, 2008)

I've got to agree with Mr. Killmaster on a lot of his comments.  Sure we use to see more deer then we do now.  He has explained this over and over in his topic..  The harvest has continued to be high, the hunter numbers have continued to be higher... thus more deer will be killed... yet how is this possible "if" there is a big decline in the population??  Maybe you folks just need to take in the fact a deer is not "stupid"..  after so many people show up in their territory they seek out other places to hide.  
Mr. Killmaster point on over browsing is right on.. when I first started hunting Cedar Creek I did see more deer which I enjoyed very much but.....  I in turn did see a lot more vegestation that was overbrowsed..  When you see it eated off nearly as high as your head, that is too high..  Acorns will not stay on the ground forever you know... Cedar Creek has been blessed over the last several years with an abundance of Acorns which really helped the deer population but soon those are eated up and the deer have to have something to eat other then Acorns.  Thus over populated... means overbrowsed plant..  This in turn creates low antler growth and low body weight...  
What are you seeing at Cedar Creek.... where is the massive antlers or the huge body weights if there was not a problem with over population in the past.  I know I for one have seen some good bucks checked in up there but none that were super.  Management will help this somewhat but with the number of deer killed "only" the smart bucks will attain a big racks...  So where are they at you ask?  Get your butts out there and find those areas the deer are hiding at...  You are not going to find them in the same places as you would in the past.  With the amount of pressure that deer see now.. those big boys know how to hide.  Believe me I have the big one on the wall to show that and....  it came from Cedar Creek!  
Mr. Killmister keep up the good work..  I for one understand why we are seeing fewer deer and know where you are and where you are going with the management plan.  
I just appreciate the amount of work that all of you do to keep the area where we can enjoy camping, hunting and the outdoors as well you do.  I missed last year due to a shoulder operation... hopefully we will be there again this year.


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## C.Killmaster (Jun 17, 2008)

Model 11 said:


> Mr. killmaster;  Can you explain the plethora of wildlife deer compete with in terms of habitat? Expand on this statement "Deer are what we call a keystone species, meaning that they have significant effects on habitat quality for a plethora of other wildlife species. Please remember that Cedar Creek is a wildlife management area, not a deer management area." Are you talking about squirrels and rabbits? turkeys? birds? Please get more specific?



Ok, I'm beating a dead horse here.  Model 11, I will not do your reading for you.  All of the questions you just asked can be answered in any comprehensive wildlife management book.  If you don't understand the terms and concepts that I have attempted to explain to you numerous times, it is your responsibility to learn them if you choose to question their validity.  I am not going to teach an entire wildlife management curriculum on this thread.  

As I stated before I'll be happy to recommend several publications that describe these terms and concepts in detail.


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## Model 11 (Jun 18, 2008)

C.Killmaster said:


> Ok, I'm beating a dead horse here.  Model 11, I will not do your reading for you.  All of the questions you just asked can be answered in any comprehensive wildlife management book.  If you don't understand the terms and concepts that I have attempted to explain to you numerous times, it is your responsibility to learn them if you choose to question their validity.  I am not going to teach an entire wildlife management curriculum on this thread.
> 
> As I stated before I'll be happy to recommend several publications that describe these terms and concepts in detail.



Mr. Killmaster, I never asked you to " teach an entire wildlife management curriculum on this thread." I thought it was a simple question in the context of a friendly discussion but I guess not. 

Your the wildlife biologist and as such I would  have thought that the answer to the question of naming the plethora of wildlife that deer impact on Cedar Creek would be right at your finger tips and not require extensive research and reading. I have never seen a browse line on Cedar Creek and was curiouse as to what exactly deer are competing with for food (ie squirrells, turkeys, rabbits, birds, etc) but apparently you must know of some other species out there that are impacted by deer that I dont know about.


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## C.Killmaster (Jun 18, 2008)

Model 11,
What I am trying to explain is that there are many other factors involved with managing populations that the average hunter may not consider.  Your opinion and my opinion of how to manage Cedar Creek obviously differ.  I cannot change your mind and you cannot change mine, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  I have attempted to explain how and why management decisions were made numerous times and to no avail.  I usually limit my use of this forum for dissemenating information, however, my name being mentioned on this thread encouraged me to defend my professional reputation.  I draw the line at defending well known wildlife management principles (atleast among other wildlife professionals).  

I am happy to give specific information about specific WMAs, but I don't have the time to explain every concept in wildlife management.  My frustration is derived from the fact that you may not fully understand what you are asking for.  It's like asking a doctor to explain the intimate details of a surgical proceedure; this is a profession like any other.  If these were simple decisions to make, there would be no need for biologists.  Again, I will be happy to recommend several publications that may answer many of your questions.  Once more, if you will take the time for a face to face discussion, which I prefer, I will be happy to carry this discussion in further detail.  Some of these things are easier explained in person than on a forum.  PM me if you would like a number to reach me.


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## Tiger Rag (Jun 23, 2008)

Here is a simple lesson.

Deer hunters in GA:  241,971

Woody's Memebers:  19,329

If all Woody's memebers were GA deer hunters (and they are not) they would represent around 8% of the deer hunters.

# people complaining about Cedar Creek:  5 or less

# hunters on Cedar Creek last year:  3223

% complaining:  0.001%

C.Killmaster -- spend your time on something better like managing the resource like it should be managed for the good of all hunters and not for the few squeaky wheels that are going to complain whenever things do not fit neatly into their own world view.

I know from this thread that habitat has changed on Cedar Creek over the years.  I wonder if everyone's hunting strategy has changed along with it?

You cannot teach a mule to speak french.


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## Model 11 (Jun 23, 2008)

Tiger Rag said:


> Here is a simple lesson.
> 
> Deer hunters in GA:  241,971
> 
> ...



Tiger, Have you ever hunted deer on Cedar Creek?


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## Model 11 (Jun 23, 2008)

C.Killmaster said:


> Model 11,
> What I am trying to explain is that there are many other factors involved with managing populations that the average hunter may not consider.  Your opinion and my opinion of how to manage Cedar Creek obviously differ.  I cannot change your mind and you cannot change mine, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  I have attempted to explain how and why management decisions were made numerous times and to no avail.  I usually limit my use of this forum for dissemenating information, however, my name being mentioned on this thread encouraged me to defend my professional reputation.  I draw the line at defending well known wildlife management principles (atleast among other wildlife professionals).
> 
> I am happy to give specific information about specific WMAs, but I don't have the time to explain every concept in wildlife management.  My frustration is derived from the fact that you may not fully understand what you are asking for.  It's like asking a doctor to explain the intimate details of a surgical proceedure; this is a profession like any other.  If these were simple decisions to make, there would be no need for biologists.  Again, I will be happy to recommend several publications that may answer many of your questions.  Once more, if you will take the time for a face to face discussion, which I prefer, I will be happy to carry this discussion in further detail.  Some of these things are easier explained in person than on a forum.  PM me if you would like a number to reach me.



Mr. Killmaster, 

It was a simple request for you to expand on your comments. Not meant to "frustrate" you. Your a nice fellow and I enjoy your input so keep up the good work. From now on I'll refer to the management of Cedar Creek as being done by DNR. Not you specifically. 

As far as this topic....the juries still out on Cedar Creeks new management policy. If and when more hunters sit down there and see less and less deer over the next few years DNRs policies will be scrutinized even more. Based on others comments I am not alone in making the observation that there a less deer on Cedar Creek and liberal doe days are going to trash the entire herd for years to come.

Forums like this are great for letting others know what is going on at management areas. Right now DNR is fortunate that we hunters are not organized and really dont demand accountability for their management decisions. This may change as more people turn to public land for their hunting activities.

As I said before, this issue and related issues are best kept in the open for all to see and not "hushed up" on a one on one conversation. 

I appreciate what DNR biologists do but question their activities on a management area that in my opinion (and others) is in decline. I hope DNR proves me wrong this coming season but sincerely doubt they will.


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## Tiger Rag (Jun 25, 2008)

Model 11 said:


> Tiger, Have you ever hunted deer on Cedar Creek?




No -- but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.


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## sman (Jun 30, 2008)

Are y'all two still discussing this?

The only thing I know is that you can now drive down Old Hillsboro Rd, 212, and what ever that road is called that is the otherside of 212 from Old Hillsboro rd without seeing at least 2 deer.  Used to have to be very careful through these areas, now not so much.

Maybe the hunters killed all of the deer that used to hang out by the road?  Took that gene right out of the pool

I believe the population is on a decline but I can't argue with the numbers on the harvest sheets.


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## FerrisBueller (Jun 30, 2008)

Wow....what a thread. Cedar Creek is on the decline due to poor management. Too many doe days.   Way to many!!!! DNRs theories might work on private land but gets thrown out the window on public. Get real. People shoot EVERYTHING on those public land hunts. You are managing Cedar Creek likes its some big private game preserve......not a public hunting area. The deer herd will suffer and hunter success will drop.


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## Chattooga River Hunter (Jul 1, 2008)

*Wow*

I think all the whiners should stop taking cheap shots at the DNR.  If you have a concern, call them and set up a meeting, but taking cheap shots under the cover of a computer screen is not the answer.

I have lived and hunted in several different states in the southeast (always hunted on state or Fed property), and from my experience, GA DNR is tops.  

If you think DNR is conspiring to have less deer, or poorer quality hunts, then you should be banned from thinking.....

You can't please everyone I guess, but we should all be thankful we have public land to hunt.


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## FerrisBueller (Jul 1, 2008)

Bureaucrats love people who do not question what they are doing and follow them blindly.


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## Model 11 (Aug 31, 2008)

Anybody heard that DNR is giving up Redlands and the parts of Cedar Creek WMA that were originally National Forest Land back to the Feds and the USFS due to budget cuts?


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## littlewolf (Aug 31, 2008)

Model 11 said:


> Anybody heard that DNR is giving up Redlands and the parts of Cedar Creek WMA that were originally National Forest Land back to the Feds and the USFS due to budget cuts?



Nope and hope its not true. Where'd you hear it from?


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## ABBYS DAD (Sep 1, 2008)

I would like to add Cedar Creek is part of a State DNR diversity program, super secret of course.........And those of you who do actually hunt it every year, no what i'm talking about.....


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## hunter44a (Sep 2, 2008)

I've been hunting Cedar Creek for quite a few years now. Bowhunting it last year and the year before was great. Seen many deer during the gun hunts as well, including 8 does in one evening. It was buck only that day. Oh well. I think hunting at Cedar Creek right now is just fine, however I don't want this place ending up like Redlands. Paulding Forest used to be a wildlife desert(to me) but they have managed it well and its a great hunt there too. Killmaster keep up the good work!


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## hunter44a (Sep 2, 2008)

Oh and as far as advice. Get there early, scout as much as you can, stay in the stand as much as possible, your weapon should be sighted in, and most of all, have a great time. You WILL see deer.


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## Model 11 (Sep 2, 2008)

littlewolf said:


> Nope and hope its not true. Where'd you hear it from?


A buddy of mine heard it on AM radio. Then tonight reading the August GON issue pg. 39, GON Staff  states...."Also proposed, all WMAs on federal land are scheduled to lose all WRD employees and services..."
This would include include Cedar Creek......along with Redlands......
Now Redlands would probably benefit from going back to
the Feds as there would be less doe days from Oct 18-Nov 7 provided the Feds keep the same reg's as that of the Oconee Nat Forest.....Other than the DNR Dove Hunt A/C, the state will not be missed. Good-bye.
As far as Cedar Creek goes...... who knows! It seems that DNR has been slowly letting it go anyway,...........having Sign in hunts instead of Check in hunts in recent years......


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## Model 11 (Sep 2, 2008)

hunter44a said:


> Oh and as far as advice. Get there early, scout as much as you can, stay in the stand as much as possible, your weapon should be sighted in, and most of all, have a great time. You WILL see deer.



And KILL every DOE that you see. DNR wants you to KILL every doe out there. Thats what I plan on doing this upcoming season. Harvest them DOEs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and most of all,,,..........HAVE A GREAT TIME DOING IT!!!!!!!!


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## hunter44a (Sep 3, 2008)

Model 11 said:


> And KILL every DOE that you see. DNR wants you to KILL every doe out there. Thats what I plan on doing this upcoming season. Harvest them DOEs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and most of all,,,..........HAVE A GREAT TIME DOING IT!!!!!!!!



Hey Model 11, there are psychotropic drugs out there if you need them. I usually have me a little Crown and Seven Up after the hunt. Especially after I slaughter all them does you're talkin about. Relax man I do agree with you in part. I don't want Cedar Creek ending up like Redlands, so we need to provide input at the upcoming meetings they have regarding the wildlife resource. This forum can be a good start. BTW you can't shoot every doe you see...only 2 during the either sex hunts.


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## red27 (Sep 3, 2008)

> To me and my circle of hunters, it isnt so much the kill but more the knowledge and visible proof of seeing deer that matters. Mr Killmaster....Ive hunted Cedar Creek for 16 years and am now seeing less deer. *I shot 3 bucks on the different hunts down there this past season. *Not because theres alot of deer down there but because I know the place. The doe days are killing the place. And this observation isnt based on just last season




You have 20 does and 4 bucks
If you kill 10 does the other 10 will be breed and produce 12 to 18 fawns

If you kill 3 bucks the one left will be lucky to breed 6 or 7 and produce 6 to 10 fawns.

If someone kills the other then guess what.

So who is hurting the #s now?


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## BIGABOW (Sep 3, 2008)

here is some advice for that area

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=235302


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## robert carter (Sep 12, 2008)

I thank all the DNR for their efforts. Sound management for HEALTHY critters should be the goal.And at 30 deer psm the HUNTERS will still kill deer.You cannot make every one happy.I feel you guys pain,I at one time killed deer very easy at Bullard Creek. It don`t have the deer it used to BUT there are bigger and better deer now.I usually kill 5+ deer a year on public land with a stickbow,I`m happy.Great Job DNR.RC


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## bobcat (Nov 30, 2008)

Was looking back at this and it got me to thinking . When the harvest went up in 02 or 03 didnt yall add around 5 to 8 thousand acres from onf aswell.


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## Cypress94 (Nov 30, 2008)

Model 11 said:


> A buddy of mine heard it on AM radio. Then tonight reading the August GON issue pg. 39, GON Staff  states...."Also proposed, all WMAs on federal land are scheduled to lose all WRD employees and services..."
> This would include include Cedar Creek......along with Redlands......
> Now Redlands would probably benefit from going back to
> the Feds as there would be less doe days from Oct 18-Nov 7 provided the Feds keep the same reg's as that of the Oconee Nat Forest.....Other than the DNR Dove Hunt A/C, the state will not be missed. Good-bye.
> As far as Cedar Creek goes...... who knows! It seems that DNR has been slowly letting it go anyway,...........having Sign in hunts instead of Check in hunts in recent years......



I, for one, will be glad to see the area I hunt go back under Nat'l Forest regs.  Maybe the loggers will leave, the gates will be locked back, and people will forget about the area that I hunt!  Ever since it started showing up on the WMA's maps, people have run it over...drive down closed roads...good riddance to them all!


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## Model 11 (Dec 10, 2008)

Mr. Killmaster..........Is the data available for the 2008 Check in hunts on Cedar Creek? It being that only sign in hunts are left......


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## BIGABOW (Dec 10, 2008)

Model 11 said:


> Mr. Killmaster..........Is the data available for the 2008 Check in hunts on Cedar Creek? It being that only sign in hunts are left......



MIGHT FAIR BETTER SENDING HIM A PM HE'S QUICK TO RESPOND THAT WAY.


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## JamesG (Dec 12, 2008)

So does anybody have any advice on huntin the WMA or is this a management thread?? Been huntin down the road from Cedar creek for thirty years. I have not seen one deer cross the road in ten+ years. I like that a lot of folks hunt it, pushes more towards my land.Thanks. Keep up the good work. I'll bet theres not twenty deer per square mile there. Soon there will be NONE. Wake up!!


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## BIGABOW (Dec 15, 2008)

JamesG said:


> So does anybody have any advice on huntin the WMA or is this a management thread??  I'll bet theres not twenty deer per square mile there.



GET WAY, WAY WAY WAY OFF THE ROAD THEY ARE THERE, mAYBE NOT 30 psm BUT THERE ARE PLENTY OF DEER THERE


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## Stealthman (Dec 19, 2008)

*Cedar Creek*

I've hunted Cedar creek twice this season and seen  NOTTA,deer. This use to NOT be the case. I've hunted the same "use to be great area" for the past three years and have been sucessful.Cedar creek use to be the WMA to go to for meat in the freezer,not bambi either.
Now,while comparing Cedar creek to Redlands, I've also hunted Redland's twice this season and seen the same amount of deer as I have DNR officials,NOTTA.
Take a look at Redland's harvest sheet and tell me who is killing all of the deer on the sign out sheet,SE habla espanol?.I often wonder how many never get checked out. I feel that we need the presence of more DNR officials,check in hunts and less ES days. Compare the number of doe days vs how many hunt days Cedar creek is open.


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## Model 11 (Dec 20, 2008)

Stealthman said:


> I've hunted Cedar creek twice this season and seen  NOTTA,deer. This use to NOT be the case. I've hunted the same "use to be great area" for the past three years and have been sucessful.Cedar creek use to be the WMA to go to for meat in the freezer,not bambi either.
> Now,while comparing Cedar creek to Redlands, I've also hunted Redland's twice this season and seen the same amount of deer as I have DNR officials,NOTTA.
> Take a look at Redland's harvest sheet and tell me who is killing all of the deer on the sign out sheet,SE habla espanol?.I often wonder how many never get checked out. I feel that we need the presence of more DNR officials,check in hunts and less ES days. Compare the number of doe days vs how many hunt days Cedar creek is open.



This is what I have been saying all along. I have hunted Cedar Creek for years but predict with all the doe days it will decline rapidly and not be much better than the National Forest. You cant kill does like DNR has prescribed for Cedar Creek without putting a serious dent in the population. Seems they forget its public land and everything on it gets shot,twice. They argue that they are trying to improve the health of the herd, and antler size........
hogwash......it DNRs answer to budget cuts....you dont need a game warden when all days are doe days. Good for a private preserve but not for heavily hunted public land.


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## bowhunter ed (Dec 21, 2008)

This is my first year hunting in Ga mostly hunted Dixon Memorial I have never seen so much buck sign in Fl also lots of deer sign in gen  this weekend I visited 4 management areas seen sign in all of them and that is without walking 4 miles into the woods the only complaint I could come up with is make the archery only areas larger and that is being selfish as I love to bow hunt and during the either sex days I hunt the hole area anyways what I am trying to say is I did not have a banner year this year but it was not the dnr or the deers fault it was my lack of homework and seat time


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## Model 11 (Dec 21, 2008)

bowhunter ed said:


> This is my first year hunting in Ga mostly hunted Dixon Memorial I have never seen so much buck sign in Fl also lots of deer sign in gen  this weekend I visited 4 management areas seen sign in all of them and that is without walking 4 miles into the woods the only complaint I could come up with is make the archery only areas larger and that is being selfish as I love to bow hunt and during the either sex days I hunt the hole area anyways what I am trying to say is I did not have a banner year this year but it was not the dnr or the deers fault it was my lack of homework and seat time



Well, I had a great year. Even on Cedar Creek, had a great year. However, as a whole .......i saw less deer and fear a decline in the quality of the herd due to way too many doe days on Cedar Creek and a lack of dnr presence. 

Its one thing to not have had much to start with and gripe, its another to see something good get destroyed because of a change in game management philosophy.


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## urbaneruralite (Dec 22, 2008)

bowhunter ed said:


> This is my first year hunting in Ga mostly hunted Dixon Memorial I have never seen so much buck sign in Fl also lots of deer sign in gen  this weekend I visited 4 management areas seen sign in all of them and that is without walking 4 miles into the woods the only complaint I could come up with is make the archery only areas larger and that is being selfish as I love to bow hunt and during the either sex days I hunt the hole area anyways what I am trying to say is I did not have a banner year this year but it was not the dnr or the deers fault it was my lack of homework and seat time



Compared to the public land I have hunted in FL, Cedar Creek is deer paradise. Much safer, too.


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## bowhunter ed (Dec 23, 2008)

urbaneruralite said:


> Compared to the public land I have hunted in FL, Cedar Creek is deer paradise. Much safer, too.



I think it is safer becouse there is less people that use public land in Ga at least where I have had the pleasure of hunting and especally the archery only areas


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## bobcat (Dec 24, 2008)

Yall say the der arent there but I havent hunted cedar creek untill this year since 04 . I havent hunted it alot but I havent had a problem seeing the deer . We only hunted from daylight till 8:30 and I saw a button buck but didnt shoot it and a 10 pt that I harvested , my buddy saw 2 big does and harvested one and 30 minuets later saw a dandy 8 pt and harvested it. Back in the day I saw a good bit of deer but I cant really tell that its changed that much. Dont see the deer on the roads that I use too but when you get in the woods its not that big of a change . I agree that theres not as many as used to be but now u actually have some undergrowth that hasnt been destroyed by browsing.No body twisted anyones arm to go hunt , just be glad you have somewhere to go. The quality of deer has improved compared to what it use to be all over the piedmont region . you cant always get lots of deer and great quality . especially the way the state allots there money .My 2 cents worth


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## robbie the deer hunter (Dec 25, 2008)

I got a 143 class 13point on my wall that came from cedar creek about 7 years ago. I also own a 200 acre farm that borders cedar creek. I dont know how to better explain it than by saying there are to many deer being killed in that area. Period. The population is way way down. As stated earlier i dont see much in land changes over the years but i see a huge population decline. I have never seen a starving deer not now or in the past. The reason the numbers are down is because they have been killed off. Please  reduce the doe days and save our deer. Cedar creek is a circus of killers when it opens. Nothing is let go. It is dnr responsibilty to cut the doe days out and the hunters responsibility to stop shooting every dang thing they see


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## steve melton (Mar 1, 2009)

Why cant we have more antler resrtictions . Growing up in this area i seen 150 to 160 class deer taken over the years in and around this area. Why not try to harvest 3.5yr to 4.5yr old bucks. You would probally get a lot more quility and ethical hunters.i say increase fines for poachers .have more youth hunts.people in this state are paying premium fees to hunt land all around these wmas. If the state would try some of these management programs it would give more people intrest in our wmas and forest land. As for all the guys who complain about folks walking around in there hunting areas.i agree this is a problem. Why not have a sign in where you are asigned a hunting area per hunt.seems to me it would be a good way to inforce the laws.thanks for any answers.


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## matthewsman (Mar 1, 2009)

*funny thread...*

Advice? Hunt thick areas and get off the road...Stay away from the edge of the areas where it borders clubs,always an idiot or two riding their atv down a firebreak or onto the management adjoining their clubs.

Open hardwoods,lot of acorns and scrapes?Not seeing anything still? go thick....

The deer population ain't what it was in the late 70's early 80's when I started hunting it,but for public land it's still good.

The only problem I have with it,is idiots camping in a cul-de-sac trying to homestead an entire section of wma behind themand armidillas.

I see nice deer and turkey killed off it yearly,and have taken nice ones off it myself...recently too.


The DNR recently is trying to make chicken salad out of chicken mess due to the budget constraints and I admire them for making the effort.


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## BIGABOW (Mar 15, 2009)

fire breakes were cut over the past month or two on out property. glad to see it. now maybe folks will see the boundries


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