# Christian Values.



## TheBishop (Nov 8, 2011)

There has long been talk of this country founded on christian values. But I have some thoughts.

 Are not christian values virtues of good or are they exclusive to christians?  

If not all of them exclusive which one are?

To be a good man, amercian, would you not display the same virtues? 

Would these virtues have exsisted before christ, and christians, or did they just define them?  

Are they truely _christian_ values or are they values that anyone can posses, but a christian must posses them in order to be considered a true believer?

I ask this becuase I would suggest christian values are not christian at all.  They are virtues of good men, regardless of belief.  They are the basic tenets of a righteous human being. Virtues that exsisted well before the bible, and can be found across all cultures and religions were good men dwell.


P.S. sorry mods couldn't decide which forum this would be appropriate for this one.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 8, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> ... I would suggest christian values are not christian at all.  They are virtues of good men, regardless of belief.  They are the basic tenets of a righteous human being. Virtues that exsisted well before the bible, and can be found across all cultures and religions were good men dwell.



That's true for some values, but others such as "turn the other cheek" and "pray for those that persecute you" are unique to Christianity.  At least, I've never heard of any other religion promoting them.


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## huntmore (Nov 8, 2011)

God is pre Bible. Being good and being Christain are two different things. All though a Christain at least tries to be Christ like.


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## JB0704 (Nov 8, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Are not christian values virtues of good or are they exclusive to christians?
> 
> If not all of them exclusive which one are?
> 
> ...



Interesting thought.  Some of the most "moral" folks I have known were not Christians.  Some of the least moral were.  That is not to say one side is all good and one all bad, but, for me, it indicates one's belief system has little to do with their own morality.  I think it is more a matter of personal integrity whether or not a person acts "moral."

That being the case, I would assume that many virtues are not an invention of Christianity, but more a development of civilization.  

The real question is, for me, why are virtues there?  This goes back to my belief in God.  This is what separates us from the animals.  We have an ingrained sense of right and wrong.  Do they come from God, or civilization?  I would say God, because I believe in him, and such a belief indicates we were created this way.  Religion labeled many things which are inherently bad "sin" (murder, lying, etc.). Whether there is a God or not, many of these virtues still should exist for society to properly function.

And no, you do not have to be a Christian to be a good man, or a good American.


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## Randy (Nov 8, 2011)

Yep Christian values are way more than being good.  They start with the 10 Commandments given by God.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 8, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> There has long been talk of this country founded on christian values. But I have some thoughts.
> 
> Are not christian values virtues of good or are they exclusive to christians?
> 
> ...



You being raised in a Christian based country were raised on those values. If you lived in iraq or iran or whatever countries stay at war for thousands of years, you'd be out at 12 yrs old with a rifle in the sand instead of our cushie middle schools with the baseball leagues and you carry a gun to hunt deer and enjoy the woods, and not have to hide in the jungle/sand/hades while you watch your family being murdered.

Therefore I agree with you, Christian or not, kids in this country are raised on Christian values and it shows.

That's why most of the world hates us as a country and hates Christians and  dogs them out all time, because they don't have what we have. Some do, some don't. But if you'll check the ones out that do pretty well  are mostly based on Christian values.

When you were a kid did your daddy give you a semi automatic and tell you to shoot anything that moved, especially if it was human? Or did they teach you the golden rule, peace out, cool, calm down, take you to guitar lessons or football practice? That is what prosperity is about, and blessings, and yes of course you're gonna be nice, and kind etc Christian or not, because you were raised to be that way.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 9, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Interesting thought.  Some of the most "moral" folks I have known were not Christians.  Some of the least moral were.  That is not to say one side is all good and one all bad, but, for me, it indicates one's belief system has little to do with their own morality.  I think it is more a matter of personal integrity whether or not a person acts "moral."
> 
> That being the case, I would assume that many virtues are not an invention of Christianity, but more a development of civilization.
> 
> ...



What if you were born and raised in iraq, 2nd ww in germany what would your values be? Isn't it depending on what virtures you lived around and grew up with/led to believe/exposed to. Maybe you could still be a good person but running down the street to avoid a bullet, wonder how long you could try to stop on the street and talk out a problem with the dude, like you can with your next door neighbor....like we were raised to do.


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## jmharris23 (Nov 9, 2011)

If you are interested in real Christian values, take a look at the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7. These values are not native to man and only come through a "heart transplant."


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## 1john4:4 (Nov 9, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> If you are interested in real Christian values, take a look at the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7. These values are not native to man and only come through a "heart transplant."[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Amen!
> ...


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## TheBishop (Nov 10, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> What if you were born and raised in iraq, 2nd ww in germany what would your values be? Isn't it depending on what virtures you lived around and grew up with/led to believe/exposed to. Maybe you could still be a good person but running down the street to avoid a bullet, wonder how long you could try to stop on the street and talk out a problem with the dude, like you can with your next door neighbor....like we were raised to do.



You don't think that good virtues are universal, and can be found in any culture?


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## TheBishop (Nov 10, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> If you are interested in real Christian values, take a look at the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7. These values are not native to man and only come through a "heart transplant."



That is not really the point of my questions.   I am not interested in anything the bible says.  The reason I asked is actually becuase I beleive you could say the vritues of a good being are also christian virtues. That christians laying claim to such virtues is erroneous. That it is just an issue of false expression.  Example:

I believe this nation was founded by men of good virtue, to create a nation who's populace embodied this vitrue.  They are virtues displayed by good athiest and good christians alike.  They can be claimed by no sect but the righteous.


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## Randy (Nov 10, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> You don't think that good virtues are universal, and can be found in any culture?


Nope.  It is only through the Bible that we know what a sin is.


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## TheBishop (Nov 10, 2011)

Randy said:


> Nope.  It is only through the Bible that we know what a sin is.



I'm not talking about sin. I'm talking of the virtues of righteous men.  Compassion, honesty, forgivefullness, loyalty, integrity, and other general traits of what constitutes a good individual.  Are not these also christian values?

What other virtues may a christian posses that one may consider a christian value, that no ordinary good man can hold?


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## applejuice (Nov 10, 2011)

Randy said:


> Nope.  It is only through the Bible that we know what a sin is.



I dont agree

We are born with instincts that are genetic, just like a fawn knows to stay away from a coyote, or an infant will cry if you sit them on the edge of a table. 

Knowing right from wrong is something you understand at a young age, sin is just a newer word for it.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 10, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> What other virtues may a christian posses that one may consider a christian value, that no ordinary good man can hold?



Can't think of many other than the ones I mentioned previously.  There are many good, virtuous people in other religions.

Where ya going with this?  Are you looking for something in particular or is this a fishing expedition?


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## mtnwoman (Nov 10, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> You don't think that good virtues are universal, and can be found in any culture?



Could be, I still think a lot of it is based on religion...ie buddhist, etc.

I ask this before but I'll ask again in other words.....
if you were born and raised as an extreme radical muslim, what values do you think the majority of that group holds?How does that directly effect the countries/people that are involved in that or have to battle against it? 

How do you explain THAT many Germans have a mindset right along side of Hitler? That many evil people just happened to fall into that big of an army? That was all supernatural, if you ask me.


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## applejuice (Nov 10, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Could be, I still think a lot of it is based on religion...ie buddhist, etc.
> 
> I ask this before but I'll ask again in other words.....
> if you were born and raised as an extreme radical muslim, what values do you think the majority of that group holds?How does that directly effect the countries/people that are involved in that or have to battle against it?
> ...



Because someone is german or muslim does not mean that they cannot possess these things. 

Hitlers takeover was anything but supernatural. 

You were just born here so you think the way you do. You should talk to people from other parts of the world if you get a chance, their blood is red just like yours and mine. It shouldnt matter what continent you were born on, its whats inside of you that makes you a good person, not the book you read.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 10, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> What other virtues may a christian posses that one may consider a christian value, that no ordinary good man can hold?



Why? have you heard of any? 

No one is perfect, I don't care how good we/they think they are, Christian or not.
Just generally speaking, yes there are other good people that may not be Christians, but they, too, like Christians will still miss the mark/sin/mess up.  

I don't know about you, but I miss the mark on most of those virtues. No matter how hard I try, I still do something that is not of a perfect natured person. All I know is that I am forgiven and because of the price of that forgiveness on the cross, I tend to try hard to do better and better. I don't try to look better to people, I try to do better to people.

Are there a few good men at Penn State? you'd think so wouldn't ya?  Sometimes people appear to have good virtues even sometimes for 40 yrs....and then up jumps the boogie, and the jig is up.  And some of those people could be posing as Christians or atheists or whatever else....but they were posing as being good, and they weren't.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 10, 2011)

applejuice said:


> Because someone is german or muslim does not mean that they cannot possess these things.
> 
> Hitlers takeover was anything but supernatural.
> 
> You were just born here so you think the way you do. You should talk to people from other parts of the world if you get a chance, their blood is red just like yours and mine. It shouldnt matter what continent you were born on, its whats inside of you that makes you a good person, not the book you read.




Hitler is part of the antichrist, just like any one else who isn't prochrist.

Besides that's not the question I ask. I ask how could that many good germans be lead astray and turn into wicked murderers?? I didn't say all Germans did I? I said the ones that followed Hitler. None of them thought a thing about torturing and killing Jews.

Well of course I was born here and I'm here in this forum answering questions based on what I know about.


I also ask about extreme fanatical muslims, I didn't ask about ALL muslims. Did I? 

So if you want to respond to my questions, I wish you'd address what I'm actually asking.

What book you read? what music you listen to? what movies we watch? what friends we hang with? whether or not our parents abused us? or if you were sexually abused? None of that matters eh?  Alrighty then, you do have a right to your opinion.

I know other peoples blood is red, most animals, too. What does that to do with virtues and the way we were raised?

Yeah if an extreme muslim chops of any ones head, without any conscious at all, their blood is gonna be red. Has nothing to do with virtues of that particular killer.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 10, 2011)

applejuice said:


> Because someone is german or muslim does not mean that they cannot possess these things.



That's not what I ask.  I said the germans that followed hitler and many of them weren't even in the army, the entire country backed him. But besides that I'm not talking or did not say ALL germans nor did I say ALL muslims.


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## applejuice (Nov 10, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> *Hitler is part of the antichrist, just like any one else who isn't prochrist*.
> 
> Besides that's not the question I ask. I ask how could that many good germans be lead astray and turn into wicked murderers?? I didn't say all Germans did I? I said the ones that followed Hitler. *None of them thought a thing about torturing and killing Jews.*
> Well of course I was born here and I'm here in this forum answering questions based on what I know about.
> ...



You are all over the place 

The values you have are not geographical at all. 

You throw big nets over groups of people, like your nazi comment above. 
Our troops are killing Iraqis today, so are they wicked murderers? If your country goes to war, guess what , you will be given a gun and told to do what has to be done. 

None of them thought a thing about killing jews? Im sure a lot of them did, but they feared the deaths of their families and friends for denying their jobs during war time. 

Lets get back to the OP

Do christians only possess good values ? No, everyone can and it has nothing to do with the book you read.


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## applejuice (Nov 10, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> That's not what I ask.  I said the germans that followed hitler and many of them weren't even in the army, the entire country backed him. But besides that I'm not talking or did not say ALL germans nor did I say ALL muslims.



source?


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## mtnwoman (Nov 10, 2011)

applejuice said:


> source?



Are you kidding?


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## applejuice (Nov 10, 2011)

No

You claim they just followed him, so do you have any info that can back that up? 

He controlled the govt and had control over everything, so what would happen to a citizen that rebelled? They died


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## mtnwoman (Nov 10, 2011)

applejuice said:


> Do christians only possess good values ?*Of course any one can, don't have to be Christians to have good values, I already said that.* No, everyone can and it has nothing to do with the book you read.*I believe that's it is possible that a book can cause you to think differently....all books are not about good virtues.*


  So yes it can depend on what you read, as most of us tend to believe some things we read just as we tend to believe the news on tv.....which we know is sometimes skewed.

Thanks for not answering my questions. 


Are you comparing our troops in Iraq to Hitlers troops, as you never answered my question about that group of people.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 10, 2011)

applejuice said:


> No
> 
> You claim they just followed him, so do you have any info that can back that up?
> 
> He controlled the govt and had control over everything, so what would happen to a citizen that rebelled? They died



ok whatever.

I tend to believe there were more good people in Germany than the Hitler followers, yet they did nothing to stop him. Where were their good virtues...since that's what we're talking about.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 10, 2011)

applejuice said:


> You throw big nets over groups of people, like your nazi comment above.
> Our troops are killing Iraqis today, so are they wicked murderers? If your country goes to war, guess what , you will be given a gun and told to do what has to be done.



You don't see a difference? I've already told you once that I'm not throwing a net over ALL germans nor ALL muslims. If you can't admit that some of them are bad and don't have good virtues....then my relies here count for nothing.

This is the very reason people start threads like this....I just happen to fall for this one this time.


All of the people are not good all the time nor are bad all the time. I've not heard a Christian say, and I'm speaking of me myself and I have never heard a Christian think they were anything else besides a sinner or a person with some good and some bad virtues, except they believe they are forgiven by and have to answer to a higher being than themselves.....sort of like Hitler


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## TheBishop (Nov 10, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Can't think of many other than the ones I mentioned previously.  There are many good, virtuous people in other religions.
> 
> Where ya going with this?  Are you looking for something in particular or is this a fishing expedition?



Turn the other cheek is not an exclusive christian value,  anyone can and should be forgivefull and patient. The other you mentioned, 





> "pray for those that persecute you" are unique to Christianity


  is not quite that unique.  It is also not a value but another act of forgiveness.  You must posses the ability to forgive them in order to pray for their forgiveness.  

I was pretty straight forward were I was going with this. I'm trying to proove a point.  Christian values are nothing more than values possesed by good men, regardless of religious, or lack thereof.  It has nothing to do with christians, unless someone can give me a value that christian posses that others cannot. If it can't be done than there is no such thing as christian values,they are nothing more than virtues of good men.


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## TheBishop (Nov 10, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> ok whatever.
> 
> I tend to believe there were more good people in Germany than the Hitler followers, yet they did nothing to stop him. Where were their good virtues...since that's what we're talking about.



Mtnwoman I think you are misunderstanding this whole discussion.  I'm not talking about cultural values, becuase yes they are different. But the nature of righteousness.  I would argue that across all barriers of time, space, religion, continents, cultural, and politics, that there are virtues that are displayed by _ALL_ good people. There is and always will be good people, and they tend to display the same traits as I listed above. 


I guess its a matter of schematics. Do good people diplay christian values or are christian values just traits that all good people posses?


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## mtnwoman (Nov 10, 2011)

Like I said, yes, there are good people that are not Christians, everywhere in the world.

Why didn't you just post a poll with yes or no, if that was the only thing you were looking for?

My answer is yes.


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## TheBishop (Nov 10, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Like I said, yes, there are good people that are not Christians, everywhere in the world.
> 
> Why didn't you just post a poll with yes or no, if that was the only thing you were looking for?
> 
> My answer is yes.



That is not what I'm looking for, a yes or no does not suffice.  I'm looking for answers to the multiple questions I have stated above.  

Do good people display christian values or are christian values just traits that all good people posses? 

Are not christian values virtues of good or are they exclusive to christians? 

If not all of them exclusive which one are?

To be a good man, amercian, would you not display the same virtues? 

Would these virtues have exsisted before christ, and christians, or did they just define them? 

Are they truely christian values or are they values that anyone can posses, but a christian must posses them in order to be considered a true believer?


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## centerpin fan (Nov 10, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Turn the other cheek is not an exclusive christian value,  anyone can and should be forgivefull and patient. The other you mentioned,   is not quite that unique.  It is also not a value but another act of forgiveness.  You must posses the ability to forgive them in order to pray for their forgiveness.



Forgiveness is one thing, but what St. Stephen displays in Acts 7 is something else.  As he is being stoned to death, he says “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.”  I've not seen that in any other religion or philosophy.




TheBishop said:


> Christian values are nothing more than values possesed by good men, regardless of religious, or lack thereof.



... and, as I said before, I agree completely.  So did mtnwoman.  I don't know any Christian who believes that there are no good, moral Jews/Muslims/Hindus/Taoists/Atheists, etc.


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## TheBishop (Nov 10, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Forgiveness is one thing, but what St. Stephen displays in Acts 7 is something else.  As he is being stoned to death, he says “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.”  I've not seen that in any other religion or philosophy.



Again, praying is not a virtue. Isn't he essentially forgiving them, and asking the lord to do the same? The prayer isn't a value. The value is having the ability to wish no ill upon those doing evil upon him. Thats the virtue, it has nothing to do with the prayer. Agian this is not a unique christian characteristic.     




> ... and, as I said before, I agree completely.  So did mtnwoman.  I don't know any Christian who believes that there are no good, moral Jews/Muslims/Hindus/Taoists/Atheists, etc.



So then you would agree that their are universal virtues of good.  The term _christian values_ is just an incorrectly used term used respresent that body of righteous virtues.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 10, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Again, praying is not a virtue. Isn't he essentially forgiving them, and asking the lord to do the same? The prayer isn't a value. The value is having the ability to wish no ill upon those doing evil upon him. Thats the virtue, it has nothing to do with the prayer. Agian this is not a unique christian characteristic.



I won't belabor the point.  I just disagree.




TheBishop said:


> So then you would agree that their are universal virtues of good.  The term _christian values_ is just an incorrectly used term used respresent that body of righteous virtues.



I would agree that honesty, fidelity, charity, etc. are generally universally admired traits.  Also, the term I've always heard is "Judeo-Christian values" since Christianity came out of Judaism and because people with these values are the ones who explored and founded the country.


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## gtparts (Nov 11, 2011)

Christian values or virtues do not make anyone righteous and, yes, those attributes are not exclusive to Christians. I think it is important to understand that the term "Judeo-Christian values" or "Christian values" are rather recently coined phrases, that look back through history to times when there was a huge difference between Judaism or Christianity and the secular context of that day. It is a good thing, then, that  the influence of those two groups have spread over the millennia. Europe could easily have remained under the clannish, tribal grips of Goths, Norsemen and Huns, much like Africa is today in many rural areas. Cultural changes are inevitable and, gratefully, much of the civility in the world today is the result of the spread of Christianity (though not exclusively so).

One last comment: If the lost of the world were not capable of adopting and living by the highest values possible, were eternally committed to the barbarism that sinks below the behavior of animals, we'd have a bigger mess than we currently have. The world is a better place because a significant part of the world is Christian and they have expressed their principles to millions over the centuries, whether the people being taught ever embraced the Faith.


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## TheBishop (Nov 11, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Christian values or virtues do not make anyone righteous and, yes, those attributes are not exclusive to Christians. I think it is important to understand that the term "Judeo-Christian values" or "Christian values" are rather recently coined phrases, that look back through history to times when there was a huge difference between Judaism or Christianity and the secular context of that day. It is a good thing, then, that  the influence of those two groups have spread over the millennia. Europe could easily have remained under the clannish, tribal grips of Goths, Norsemen and Huns, much like Africa is today in many rural areas. Cultural changes are inevitable and, gratefully, much of the civility in the world today is the result of the spread of Christianity (though not exclusively so).
> 
> One last comment: If the lost of the world were not capable of adopting and living by the highest values possible, were eternally committed to the barbarism that sinks below the behavior of animals, we'd have a bigger mess than we currently have. The world is a better place because a significant part of the world is Christian and they have expressed their principles to millions over the centuries, whether the people being taught ever embraced the Faith.



So then you would claim that without the spread of religion humans would be reduced to savages and could not form compatible society.  That it is religion, and not education and man figuring out that society is better as a whole with more people adopting traits of virtue.  What about the world that existed b.c.?  Certainly you would not suggest they were all savages. Greece? Ancient rome? Mesopotamia? Egypt? These were civilized cultures that did not exist in anarchy, but an ordely society.  Their religions certainly cannot claim to be a source of that order.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Greece? Ancient rome? Mesopotamia? Egypt? These were civilized cultures that did not exist in anarchy, but an ordely society.  Their religions certainly cannot claim to be a source of that order.



They had gods, that they felt dependent upon, they worshipped and feared them.  So yes the order of how they lived were based on the laws of the gods....even if it was just pharoah, he too, was considered a god.  Some had good virtues, and some didn't...Nero was a pretty low character and there are people in this country that live like he did.


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## gtparts (Nov 11, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> So then you would claim that without the spread of religion humans would be reduced to savages and could not form compatible society.  That it is religion, and not education and man figuring out that society is better as a whole with more people adopting traits of virtue.  What about the world that existed b.c.?  Certainly you would not suggest they were all savages. Greece? Ancient rome? Mesopotamia? Egypt? These were civilized cultures that did not exist in anarchy, but an ordely society.  Their religions certainly cannot claim to be a source of that order.



This is quite typical of your responses. I made no comment regarding those things you mention. Your assumption is erroneous. 

For the record, religion, in all forms, has done more to spread and advance education than any other single thing. As a side note, some religions have quite literally, actively, and consistently over time, suppressed education and most of them have been relegated to history's dust bin.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

gtparts said:


> For the record, religion, in all forms, has done more to spread and advance education than any other single thing. As a side note, some religions have quite literally, actively, and consistently over time, suppressed education and most of them have been relegated to history's dust bin.



I was gonna ask you what happened to zeus...


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## Ronnie T (Nov 11, 2011)

I'm beginning to think this thread belongs in the AAA forum.


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## TheBishop (Nov 11, 2011)

gtparts said:


> This is quite typical of your responses. I made no comment regarding those things you mention. Your assumption is erroneous.



No need for the arrogance, I apologize if I'm my assumption was off base. I summized that this statement:



> If the lost of the world were not capable of adopting and living by the highest values possible, were eternally committed to the barbarism that sinks below the behavior of animals, we'd have a bigger mess than we currently have.



Suggested that religion was responsible for those values. 



> For the record, religion, in all forms, has done more to spread and advance education than any other single thing. As a side note, some religions have quite literally, actively, and consistently over time, suppressed education and most of them have been relegated to history's dust bin.



Enough to cancel out.


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## TTom (Nov 11, 2011)

Comparing the good German, Afghan, Iraqi, Indian, Native American, Russian, people is easy enough. The question always comes to pass though. How could they match up their actions with their values.

How could the "Good Christian's " practice convert or die genocide against the savages? and call it for their own good?

How can the "Good Muslims" back Palistinian suicide bombers in Israel?

How could "Good German's" follow the orders that to us seem unconscionable?

How can good soldiers of any country commit war crimes?

And yet all of these things happen and in the moment the perpetrators all believe they are doing the right or necessary thing.

Loyalty the Germans under Hitler, The Muslims backing Palestine, the Christians practicing convert or die, They are all practicing Loyalty to their country/ religion, and likely maintain dozens of very standard values that recur in societies around the globe.

Forgiveness and compassion are two of the values that seem absent from such crimes against "them other folks" but you'll hear that rationalized away in many different ways.


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## JB0704 (Nov 12, 2011)

Because, in the past, I have questioned Church authority, I have had "good Christians" present Romans 13:1 (submit yourself to authority because its all from God) as evidence that I need not do such a thing.  So, submission to authority is a christian value.

Then I asked these "good Christians" if I had lived in 1930's Germany should I have then submitted myself to the orders of Hitler.  Their answer was "yes."

Sometimes I think we need to use reason in our interpretation.  I tend to think Romans 13:1 was written in context of being a good citizen and living a Godly life.  Not blind submission.  I don't think genocide could ever be considered a "christian value."


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## hummerpoo (Nov 12, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Because, in the past, I have questioned Church authority, I have had "good Christians" present Romans 13:1 (submit yourself to authority because its all from God) as evidence that I need not do such a thing.  So, submission to authority is a christian value.
> 
> Then I asked these "good Christians" if I had lived in 1930's Germany should I have then submitted myself to the orders of Hitler.  Their answer was "yes."
> 
> Sometimes I think we need to use reason in our interpretation.  I tend to think Romans 13:1 was written in context of being a good citizen and living a Godly life.  Not blind submission.  I don't think genocide could ever be considered a "christian value."



I have always viewed Rm. 13:3-6 as a test for authority.  If our doing good is a cause for fear we are to reject it.  However, our bias must favor established authority because of the great difficulty man has in discerning good and evil.


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## TheBishop (Nov 12, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Because, in the past, I have questioned Church authority, I have had "good Christians" present Romans 13:1 (submit yourself to authority because its all from God) as evidence that I need not do such a thing.  So, submission to authority is a christian value.



If that is a true christian value than this country definitely wasn't founded on christian values.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> If that is a true christian value than theis country definitely wasn't founded on christian values.



I still don't know what your purpose in this thread is, other than to argue semantics.  

You don't believe "Christian values" are exclusive to Christians and the Christians here have agreed with you.

So what else is there to this?


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## JB0704 (Nov 12, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> If that is a true christian value than theis country definitely wasn't founded on christian values.



I agree.  I was pointing out that some would list it as a "christian value."  It is interesting, that the same people would then insist God had his hands in the American revolution.  But,this country was founded on rebellion against established authority.  So which is the value?  I think Hummerpoo is on to something with his response.

I don't think blind submission was the point of Romans.  I think that is how it is often interpreted by those who do not use reason when trying to determine what the Bible is saying.  I was pointing out that our "values" can be misunderstood if what we read is not in context of the "big picture."  That is how many Christian values _may_ get warped by men. 

This kind-of explains why the Christians practicing genocide in the past were not really practicing Christian values (as TTOM suggested).  They were just killing folks.


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## TheBishop (Nov 12, 2011)

If were observe the natural world, there are some things readily apparent.  Like all species the main purpose is to ensure the survival and continuation of our lineage.  We have evolved to become very socially dependent, so social order is important to the survival and prosperity of our kind.  It is obvious that institutions do not give us that order but rather, they are a by product of survival instinct.  

It is our nature to be virtueous.  Now obviously there is alwasy an exception. But the true spirit of men must be predominantly righteous or else society would not work.  Governments do not keep us from killing each other or else no one would murder, it is a developing characteristic of man.  Why do we value virtue?  Not becuase it is taught, but becuase it makes or survival and prosperity that much easier.   It is becoming ingrained in our being.  

The true nature of the human spirit must be one of goodness.  If it isn't social order would have never arisen.  We would have never risen ubove lone cavemen. Humans have always possessed the virtues of good, as part of our survival instinct.  

Agian there are always exceptions to the rule, and not everything acts in a manner beneficial to the whole.


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## Israel (Nov 12, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> If were observe the natural world, there are some things readily apparent.  Like all species the main purpose is to ensure the survival and continuation of our lineage.  We have evolved to become very socially dependent, so social order is important to the survival and prosperity of our kind.  It is obvious that institutions do not give us that order but rather, they are a by product of survival instinct.
> 
> It is our nature to be virtueous.  Now obviously there is alwasy an exception. But the true spirit of men must be predominantly righteous or else society would not work.  Governments do not keep us from killing each other or else no one would murder, it is a developing characteristic of man.  Why do we value virtue?  Not becuase it is taught, but becuase it makes or survival and prosperity that much easier.   It is becoming ingrained in our being.
> 
> ...


I cannot separate God from man...to the extent that I have heard some say "Where would I be without God?"

Well, of course that's a question, depending upon ones perspective, that is either silly...or uninformed. We cannot be at all apart from God, for in him we live, and move, and have our being.
But as to the intent when often spoken, I can understand the asker saying "without God's help and mercy, I would be in terrible shape"...and with that, I trust, many of us can agree.
And so it is when you speak of the nature of man according as viewed through the development of society.
You seem to proceed from "since society exists...man must have some goodness of his own to have sustained it..." 
For, it could be reasoned...were man as totally depraved as some would argue, society itself would have extinguished itself after Cain brained Abel...and Adam probably would have done likewise to Cain...and Eve, totally given over to grief and anger at Adam for killing her only remaining son...did him in. 
If I am simplistic, I mean to be.
But God has never abandoned us. He even intervened after Cain's sin...and forbade his blood be shed by man. 
And that is where I would contend...it has not been by man's inherent goodness we can see something of cooperation amongst men...but by God's intervention alone. Left completely alone (which, thankfully, we never have been) nothing would be here, including ourselves to either testify or discuss man's nature.
But God is the God who remains faithful to his creation, and this is nowhere more completely demonstrated in perfection, than through Jesus the Christ.
And since he testified that we, being evil...even know how to give good gifts to our children, I would be proved a liar to disagree with him.
So I stand to testify, not of my not being a liar...but of Christ alone being the true and faithful witness of all things...especially of God...but not excluding "our own" nature.
Jesus is Lord.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 12, 2011)

The meek shall inherit the earth and our predator natures is the root of all evil--especially our scent markings... or where we pee.

Ever consider how someone would or will inherit the earth with no one in his or her lineage owning  even  a part, an acherage, a parcel of it?

One thing I have learned from trapping coyotes is that coyotes have as pacts and individuals a three dimentional brain when it comes to what is important in life.

If you really what to get in the mind and heart of a coyote, a very expert predator very similar to man socially all you need to know is this: The value of life is as follows: If you can't eat it, mate with it or pee on it ( mark it)...it's as useless as mamary glands on a bluejay. And if anything out of this realm of values pesters or treatens the three essential values of coyote life what is left is fight or flight.

Case closed, end of story. No great philosophy, social study, or wish will make it that man is different in nature than coyotes--as individuals and socially. If we can't eat it, if we can't mate it, if we can't pee on it or mark it as our own and call it property, capital, our land, our territory, our country, our borders, Ours! than life ain't worth beans...to put it mildly.

Now one of the great values of man is marking territory as his own. Private property in North America is largely due to European coyotes pushing out native foxes. But this has been a simple and great value of mankind since  the realestate of Eden was exchanged for an other. It is older than when Moses was beating up on Canaanites, older than India and Persia, older than Job, older than pharoes, Sumer Kings, Strong men, Vikings, Potentates since Babal,  Mesopotamian hawks, Oliver Cromwell,  King George, Gangs and Mafias, Bonapart,  Hussain, Nero, Papa Doc,  and my mother when she said Gordon it is time to leave home and you ain't moving back.  

When we say the price of freedom is  paid in blood, this is as old a Cain and Able, Alexander the Great and British Governors giving  massive land grants to land specualtors before and after the US was an independent country. It is the value of corruption, the value of might is right, the value of resource control, the value of war Lords, the value in patriotism, the spawn of Anthems North and South, the value in closing both eyes to evil--if it will afford one, food, mating in comfort and security in the control of territory.

Now what is different in christianity is that the coyote is pinned on his ear. It is the meak that shall inherity the earth, all of it! Not coyotes, not predatory man with his porfolios, his mates and concubines, his rental and estate properties...  his conciliaries, his private and public security.

The meak that seek after peace and justice shall inherit the earth, and all of it. To say that this has always been is a sorry read of history and a poor follow of where our present tax dollars are going....

The peace and justice of the predator is always temporary. The peace and justice of God is forever.

The good peace of man is to often the holding back on war for a time. And the good justice of man is simply revenge.

The peace of christians is just that, peace; Hachets burried once and for all time. And Justice is just that just, patience and fairness.

Walk the strait line streets and completely cross the city of Oakland, California, New York, San Francisco, or most any great city in the US and see how far you go before you meet up with peeing posts where it will be unsafe to go--were the  natural shadows of our real "good man" lurks. And these shadows you will find in both poor neighbourhoods  and rich neigbourhoods, garbage dump coyotes and plantation coyotes, Need I say more. Oh! Yes! Coyotes work hard, sometimes even sacrefice for their freedom and liberty--but they are still coyotes.

With Christians the paradigm of the Ten Commandments as a means of righteousness is flipped to two basic commandements: Love God and Love your neighbours as yourself. Socially this means love other peoples as you love your own--and for many this is a heard nut to crack...especially if you are essentially a creature of your pack-- as oppossed to being in Christ.


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## gtparts (Nov 13, 2011)

TTom said:


> Comparing the good German, Afghan, Iraqi, Indian, Native American, Russian, people is easy enough. The question always comes to pass though. How could they match up their actions with their values.
> 
> How could the "Good Christian's " practice convert or die genocide against the savages? and call it for their own good?
> 
> ...



Glad you placed " Good Christians" in parentheses. The truth is that while "convert or die" may be a basic principle of some religious faiths, it has never been a principle of Christianity. Yes, the practice has been implemented in the past, in "the name of Christianity", by ignorant zealots who were not Spirit-led (you can take that as, "more lost than Atlantis"). Such behavior could not be further from the tenets expressed by Christ.

If it doesn't "quack" like a duck. doesn't walk like a duck, doesn't lay eggs like a duck, doesn't fly like a duck, nor have feathers like a duck, you can be pretty certain it isn't a duck.


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## TTom (Nov 13, 2011)

My point though GTparts remains, all of the examples I gave justified their behaviors and were considered "Good ____", and considered themselves to be "Good ____". They possessed many virtues that were and are considered Good today.

But I do take your point, that profession of following a faith and actually following one are two very different things.


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## gtparts (Nov 14, 2011)

TTom said:


> My point though GTparts remains, all of the examples I gave justified their behaviors and were considered "Good ____", and considered themselves to be "Good ____". They possessed many virtues that were and are considered Good today.
> 
> But I do take your point, that profession of following a faith and actually following one are two very different things.



Your point is well taken. The questions are: Who can justify their own behavior objectively? Who can rightly judge? What is the motivation for our behavior? By what yardstick are we to be measured?

Until these questions are answered, can we really call anything "good"?


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## TheBishop (Nov 14, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Your point is well taken. The questions are:
> 
> Who can justify their own behavior objectively?




A righteous man.



> Who can rightly judge?




A righteous man.



> What is the motivation for our behavior?



To ensure the continuation and betterment of our species with both prosperity and peace, for future generations.   





> By what yardstick are we to be measured?



By our intergrity.



> Until these questions are answered, can we really call anything "good"?



Yes I believe we can. Men with integrity that posses righteous virtues.  Honor, loyalty, fidelity, responsibility, selflessness, honesty, compassion, and any other adjectives that we use to describe an individual of admirable quality.


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## Israel (Nov 15, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> A righteous man.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All the virtues you espouse are found in one place, or better said...one person. 
And since all judgment has already been committed to him, if we are not satisfied with his selection, we need to take it up with the one who put him there.
He'll hear all arguments...and although I could disingenuously tell you..."don't be shocked" when he responds, there's no way not to be when arguing with Jesus's dad about his son's position over every man.


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## stringmusic (Nov 15, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> A righteous man.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What if other people do not define "righteous" the way you do? Where do we get an authoritive definition of the word? Please don't say the dictionary.






> To ensure the continuation and betterment of our species with both prosperity and peace, for future generations.


Why would we want to do this? Why should I care about future generations? What gives human beings the want for peace and not war?   







> By our intergrity.


Integrity? murder,stealing,cheating, and lieing, that kind of integrity? That might be how some define integrity, if not for an authoritative definition of the word given to mankind by God.





> Yes I believe we can. Men with integrity that posses righteous virtues.  Honor, loyalty, fidelity, responsibility, selflessness, honesty, compassion, and any other adjectives that we use to describe an individual of admirable quality.


Again, what makes any one person_ want _to possess these virtues in their lives?


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## TheBishop (Nov 15, 2011)

Israel said:


> All the virtues you espouse are found in one place, or better said...one person.
> And since all judgment has already been committed to him, if we are not satisfied with his selection, we need to take it up with the one who put him there.
> He'll hear all arguments...and although I could disingenuously tell you..."don't be shocked" when he responds, there's no way not to be when arguing with Jesus's dad about his son's position over every man.



The character jesus does possess such virtue.  It makes him a much more likeable symbol.


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## TheBishop (Nov 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> What if other people do not define "righteous" the way you do? Where do we get an authoritive definition of the word? Please don't say the dictionary.


 
Stick with me string.  It is defined by characteristics of men we would consider good, throughout history.  Some might posses a few characteristics some might possess them all.



> Why would we want to do this? Why should I care about future generations? What gives human beings the want for peace and not war?



Intelligence and nature.  We are engineered like every other creature.  We have instincts to eat, sleep, and breed.  Why do we have a sexual attraction to the other species (unless her name is Kagan, or Odonell)? It is our instinct.  Peace equals prosperity, war equals turmoil. It is not people that seek out war it is governments.   Our nature like all is the continuation of our species. 



> Integrity? murder,stealing,cheating, and lieing, that kind of integrity? That might be how some define integrity, if not for an authoritative definition of the word given to mankind by God.



You do not need god to define good integrity or bad integrity.  Under many gods, before christ, before christians there were both.  Since the dawn of man integrity has exsisted.  It only needs to be looked at what is good for our kind and what is not.  



> Again, what makes any one person_ want _to possess these virtues in their lives?



That is a tougher question.  Are they truely virtueous if they only act virteous becuase of the threat of eternal suffering were otherwise they would not? Or are they virteous becuase that is their nature?  Are they virtueous becuase they wish to act they way to gain praise? Wouldn't that be vanity?  No I believe a truely righteous individual acts that way becuase they are compelled to act that way, by no other force but their concious.


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## Israel (Nov 15, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> The character jesus does possess such virtue.  It makes him a much more likeable symbol.


Reducing Jesus to a symbol would be the first great error.
Thinking he is likeable just demonstrates one has heard there be such a thing as an airplane, and even met others that claim to fly, but never gotten in one.


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## TheBishop (Nov 15, 2011)

Israel said:


> Reducing Jesus to a symbol would be the first great error.
> Thinking he is likeable just demonstrates one has heard there be such a thing as an airplane, and even met others that claim to fly, but never gotten in one.



So says you, I am not here to debate jesus. I am here to discuss the qualities that is claimed he possesed, that one should mimic.


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## Israel (Nov 15, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> So says you, I am not here to debate jesus. I am here to discuss the qualities that is claimed he possesed, that one should mimic.


Precisely.
And, in keeping with my poor metaphor in which I will shamelessly indulge myself even further:
Even a child with his arms outstretched, zooming around the living room while making jet noises may imagine himself flying. 
So it is the difference between what men call good, or integrity, or honesty, or any virtue he may perceive as being effected apart from Christ.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 15, 2011)

The social values vs christian values is nothing new. 

 History has well demonstrated that the good man of the social model and formed by this model usually ends up being eaten, and overtaken by a cabal of fat burocrats  ( coyotes) who decide what is good and bad for all.  Great dictatorships have been born for this "good man" viewed from the pillars of the intelect's social utopias. These pillars of course only apply with good effect for all in part , even on a good day because of boots on the ground reality which is  a different reality.

This might interest some:

 Robert Owen (14 May 1771 – 17 November 1858) was a Welsh social reformer and one of the founders of utopian socialism and the cooperative movement.

Owen's philosophy was based on three intellectual pillars:
 •First, no one was responsible for his [or her] will and his [or her] own actions because his whole character is formed independently of himself; people are products of their heredity and environment, hence his support for education and labour reform, rendering him a pioneer in human capital investment.
 •Second, all religions are based on the same ridiculous imagination, that make man a weak, imbecile animal; a furious bigot and fanatic; or a miserable hypocrite; (though in his later years he embraced Spiritualism).[1]
 •Third, support for the putting-out system instead of the factory system



From a historic perspective it can be argued that communism was a  venture of the fittest "good man" where many were deemed unfit by that very socially evolved good man .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Owen


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## TTom (Nov 15, 2011)

Far earlier examples of virtue theory would be Classical Greeks Homer, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, who's works have been hugely influential even in Christian theology. Thomas Aquinas cites Aristotle frequently while expounding on what the Christian virtues are.

Of course the difference between the christian values and the non christian values come mostly from what each side views as the Purpose of Man.


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## Madman (Nov 16, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I'm talking of the virtues of righteous men.



Without Christ there is no such thing.


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## Israel (Nov 16, 2011)

Madman said:


> Without Christ there is no such thing.



yes.

There is nothing of which a man is more easily convinced than his own  inherent goodness, and nothing in which he is in greater error.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 16, 2011)

TTom said:


> Far earlier examples of virtue theory would be Classical Greeks Homer, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, who's works have been hugely influential even in Christian theology. Thomas Aquinas cites Aristotle frequently while expounding on what the Christian virtues are.
> 
> Of course the difference between the christian values and the non christian values come mostly from what each side views as the Purpose of Man.



Very good point, which I would qualify as "what each side views as the purpose of Salvation."

If salvation is the eternal reward for a rightious life or faith  defined  as belief in a redeamer and that salvation is individual, and personal, and its  fullfillment  is after death or in a Second Coming, than that is one salvation and this leaves mankind in a general ditch of forever fallen. The Kingdom is in the heart and stays there and is not for this world or the worlds of mankind other than for missionary commissions and visits and church plantings.

On the other hand there is another salvation, and that salvation is onto life and living and leads to the perfection of mankind both as individuals and as a societies and peoples into the people of God. It is of a Kingdom in the heart and mind activated and put to work according to the Kingdom principles of life.  The redemption and salvation of one man is the potential salvation of all mankind for his rightious walk as a model and an actor.

One Kingdom is in the heart to serve  for a reward after death and another in the heart to serve life  as a reward in the hear and now.

Two very different salvations which invite two very different standards for rightiousness, ethics, integrity, justice, peace,  etc...

It is easy to confuse these two christian models and their values with the values of the social model. All have values in common, but their houses are build not unlike those of the three little pigs. Only one is build out of and on a rock.


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## thedeacon (Nov 16, 2011)

Over the years I have attended many schools on differant subjects in order to keep up with the trade that I was in. Sometimes I was allowed to grade my own papers. I loved that because I always made a better grade when grading myself. I thought very highly of myself and my ablilties. I hope you get my point.

We set our own standards to often especially in the spiritual realm, we sit sometimes looking out at our world with blind eyes to our own actions. We seem to sit ourselves just a mite to high and forget to use humility when we think of ourselves.

In reading ALL the post here I am impressed with what I read, I think it is a great discussion.  I have read the word good expressed in a few diffenant connitations.

Being good is just not "good" enough, especially when we use it in the wrong way.

From the beginning of time God has never allowed his people to set the standards of their "Christian" values. In a manner of speaking we think that we are allowed to grade our own papers. If you think about it that just dosn't work in the spiritual world. The pattern before us was Jesus. 

WWJD

I guess what I am trying to say is, God has already set the standard for our values and when we grade our papers we should be very conservative but be very liberal when we grade the papers of others.

Be careful when we look at the heart of others, our outward appearance should be one of humility, understanding, love and compassion.

Jesus himself said, why do you call me good.

Woe be to the man that calls himself good and brands someone else not good.

Just my thoughts, hope it makes sense, God bless.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 16, 2011)

thedeacon said:


> Over the years I have attended many schools on differant subjects in order to keep up with the trade that I was in. Sometimes I was allowed to grade my own papers. I loved that because I always made a better grade when grading myself. I thought very highly of myself and my ablilties. I hope you get my point.
> 
> We set our own standards to often especially in the spiritual realm, we sit sometimes looking out at our world with blind eyes to our own actions. We seem to sit ourselves just a mite to high and forget to use humility when we think of ourselves.
> 
> ...



Ever consider how in Genesis  God could evaluate His own creation as being "good"? Was He evaluating Himself or his creation?

I think we as christians evaluate in the same way. We do not evaluate ourselves when we evaluate our creations.

And as creations ourselves we are all good, but we could all be better like my mom and Jesus use to say.


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## TTom (Nov 16, 2011)

Gordon I was avoiding being purely Christian in perspective, your models both assume salvation is needed.

More than a few spiritual traditions don't have a condemnation (used to avoid the potty mouth filter) to require salvation from.

@thedeacon
Hmmm I've often found myself to be my worst critic, expecting more from myself.


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## gtparts (Nov 17, 2011)

There is a book (perhaps several) in this thread.

I would make this point at this stage of discussion. If we are to be the righteous judge of our own character, such demands that we be righteous to start with. Clearly the failing of all men is that they cannot judge themselves accurately, all being willing to compromise their integrity in some way for what they covet. Christ pointed to us compromising in the thought process,... we do not even have to act on our thoughts. Our very thoughts betray us as weak and unscrupulous. 

Righteousness is the very unique condition of being right in relationship to others, to a man, to men, to God.... even to ourselves. Yet, we deceive ourselves, a friend, our community, and, if we claim one, our God. We are disqualified from such a judgeship by our thoughts and action.

Some of us need to pick another righteous judge other than ourselves. The Christian should, by faith, declare than one righteous judge, consistently, many times every day. He is Jesus. He alone qualifies.


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## TheBishop (Nov 17, 2011)

Madman said:


> Without Christ there is no such thing.



So for the thousands of years before said birth there was no such thing? Come on man.  There are plenty of people that are not christian throughout history that one could consider men of righteous virtue.


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## Israel (Nov 17, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> So for the thousands of years before said birth there was no such thing? Come on man.  There are plenty of people that are not christian throughout history that one could consider men of righteous virtue.


 I am thinking that your apparent exasperation over a reluctance to count anyone as worthy of note is due to a lack of a relationship with Jesus.
This is not accusatory, or judgmental. It is a matter of understanding for the believer that what you may consider of relative merit in certain men are all absolutely true in Jesus alone. Yet, even more than this, some have come to that place where relative "goodness" is seen for what it is, always and only in the eye of the beholder...and therefore either of no, or dubious, value at best.
It is a matter of faith for the believer, and a matter of revelation if he has continued in that faith at all, that Jesus alone is the worthy recipient of any and all glory, particularly in his victory won for us.
The appreciation is in all that Jesus accomplished it was never on his own behalf, never to try to earn a place of repute amongst men, nor even to try to attain to a reconciliation of his own sense of goodness and his own actions. By this I mean, Jesus was not troubled by being self condemned if not faithful to a set of virtues of his own adoption, nor did he suffer under the dissonance that often leads us to either achieve, or try to represent ourselves as something we are not.
The beauty of Jesus suffering, endurance, faithfulness in tribulation are all brought down to the truth that with one word he could have escaped it all.
Therefore we are (perhaps some of us) reluctant to raise a standard other than that given us of God himself...Jesus.
It is almost as though I were a child, having never seen anything but a little league game played by children like myself, and I argued with friends in someone's parlor that Timmy was the best ballplayer that ever lived. All the while Mrs. Gerhig is bringing us cookies and chuckling.


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## TheBishop (Nov 17, 2011)

Israel said:


> I am thinking that your apparent exasperation over a reluctance to count anyone as worthy of note is due to a lack of a relationship with Jesus.
> This is not accusatory, or judgmental. It is a matter of understanding for the believer that what you may consider of relative merit in certain men are all absolutely true in Jesus alone. Yet, even more than this, some have come to that place where relative "goodness" is seen for what it is, always and only in the eye of the beholder...and therefore either of no, or dubious, value at best.
> It is a matter of faith for the believer, and a matter of revelation if he has continued in that faith at all, that Jesus alone is the worthy recipient of any and all glory, particularly in his victory won for us.
> The appreciation is in all that Jesus accomplished it was never on his own behalf, never to try to earn a place of repute amongst men, nor even to try to attain to a reconciliation of his own sense of goodness and his own actions. By this I mean, Jesus was not troubled by being self condemned if not faithful to a set of virtues of his own adoption, nor did he suffer under the dissonance that often leads us to either achieve, or try to represent ourselves as something we are not.
> ...



I am not here to debate jesus. But to say righteous virtue is only possible becuase of him is quite erroneous.


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## Israel (Nov 17, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I am not here to debate jesus. But to say righteous virtue is only possible becuase of him is quite erroneous.


May I ask you who you think Jesus is?


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## TheBishop (Nov 17, 2011)

Israel said:


> May I ask you who you think Jesus is?



Wouldn't "_WAS_" be more appropriate? Either way my opinion of who, or what jesus is/was is not pertinent to this discussion. I can tell you we will disagree on the answer.  But I reiterate it has no value to this discussion, and my reply only gaurantees this threads derailment and probably its relocations.  I am not here to discuss the validity of jesus christ the being, but the values in which the man possessed that us mere mortals may display.


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## Israel (Nov 17, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Wouldn't "_WAS_" be more appropriate? Either way my opinion of who, or what jesus is/was is not pertinent to this discussion. I can tell you we will disagree on the answer.  But I reiterate it has no value to this discussion, and my reply only gaurantees this threads derailment and probably its relocations.  I am not here to discuss the validity of jesus christ the being, but the values in which the man possessed that us mere mortals may display.



I believe you are either confused, disingenuous, or less than candid when you go from the "symbol" Jesus to now admitting his existence as a man possessed of admirable traits.
I will leave it to others better than myself to help you understand why Jesus either is a complete fabrication, (in which case it would be the first time the fabricators could come up with a character exceeding them in all wisdom and insight)...a liar, deluded...or precisely who he says he is.


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## TheBishop (Nov 17, 2011)

Israel said:


> I believe you are either confused, disingenuous, or less than candid when you go from the "symbol" Jesus to now admitting his existence as a man possessed of admirable traits.
> I will leave it to others better than myself to help you understand why Jesus either is a complete fabrication, (in which case it would be the first time the fabricators could come up with a character exceeding them in all wisdom and insight)...a liar, deluded...or precisely who he says he is.



Your belief is unfounded. I assure you I am not any of which you wish to portray me.  I have not admitted anything of his exsistence other than the nobility of the traits assigned to him. You are trying to progress this discussion into something I desire not to debate in this thread.


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## Israel (Nov 17, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Wouldn't "_WAS_" be more appropriate? Either way my opinion of who, or what jesus is/was is not pertinent to this discussion. I can tell you we will disagree on the answer.  But I reiterate it has no value to this discussion, and my reply only gaurantees this threads derailment and probably its relocations.  I am not here to discuss the validity of jesus christ the being, but the values in which the man possessed that us mere mortals may display.



Sorry, I inferred from the _WAS_ that you were at least conferring historicity upon Jesus, but I now see you wanted to recommend I confine my reference to him in the past tense.
Fair enough.
I won't, and don't. 
Nor do I have any expectation that you need to see him now as I do.
Perhaps our impasse is at the very point at which you consider traits, like righteousness, or truth, to be solely attributes or concepts to be grasped.
I have found them to be a person.
To be grasped.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 17, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I am not here to debate jesus. But to say righteous virtue is only possible becuase of him is quite erroneous.



You're the one who began this thread titled  "Christian values" and yet you say you aren't here to debate Jesus?

If that's so, you came to the wrong forum area and you entitled your thread inappropriately.

Your move now Bishop.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 17, 2011)

Christian values

Above all else, Christian values can only belong to a person who is a disciple of Christ Himself.
All other Christian values are aligned with the following.

1. Worship only God(God is always 1st)
2. Respect all people(Even the disrespectful)
3. Be humble(The humble are actually the greatest)
4. Be honest(Honest with God and others)
5. Live a moral life (Based upon God's morality, not society's)
6. Be generous with time and money (It's not yours anyway)
7. Practice what you preach; don't be a hypocrite (talk's cheap)
8. Don't be self-righteous (The self-righteous believe in themselves and their own stupidity).
9. Don't hold a grudge (Ever! Christians learn to let things go)
10. Forgive others (All others, no exceptions.  Because our Savior died for us)


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## gordon 2 (Nov 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Christian values
> 
> Above all else, Christian values can only belong to a person who is a disciple of Christ Himself.
> All other Christian values are aligned with the following.
> ...



Thanks for sharing this, to the point, info. Point number two reminded me of my moma's counsel, when I was a teenager, to not forget to respect wimen. I wish now she had said wimen and everyone else.

I am intreagued by your idea that christian values belong to deciples of Christ. Are you stating that this is the foremost value or that their are a series of values in being a deciple of Christ beyond your list? When you say, "all other values are aligned with the following;" are you saying there is another list unique to the deciples of Christ, or being a deciple is a single and unique value in itself?


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## gtparts (Nov 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Christian values
> 
> Above all else, Christian values can only belong to a person who is a disciple of Christ Himself.
> All other Christian values are aligned with the following.
> ...



Thanks, RT. That you presented a list of Christian values is never quite enough with out the motivation behind the behavior. I was heartened that you included the reason behind the actions.

 Bishop is right, in that those attributes are not all exclusive to Christians, but that is not the point. Why we adhere to an ethical code and why non-Christians might do so, both have their origins in Him. Whether we are moved in that direction because we seek to please Him or because we "just believe it is the right thing to do, while serving our own interests", the truth is that God has written some things on the hearts of all men. Even the least among us has some sense of right and wrong. 

Indeed, it is because we are all formed in the image of God that we have a conscience. 
Much of the world operates on the basis of that conscience, partially suppressed by the desire to take care of numero uno. The lost can even exhibit the "noble" trait of altruism. In such cases, it usually is masking or motivated by self-interest, a sense of guilt, or pity. While altruism is admirable on the surface, it may be manifested for other reasons than our love for others. 

Christians, then, should always examine their motives as often as they consider their actions.

Have a blessed day.


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## TheBishop (Nov 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> You're the one who began this thread titled  "Christian values" and yet you say you aren't here to debate Jesus?
> 
> If that's so, you came to the wrong forum area and you entitled your thread inappropriately.
> 
> Your move now Bishop.



Ronnie you answered it for me. The discussion is christian _values_ not about the historical figure jesus. If I wanted to debate the exsistence of jesus I would have started the thread in a much different place with a much different title. 

Check and mate.


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## TheBishop (Nov 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Christian values
> 
> Above all else, Christian values can only belong to a person who is a disciple of Christ Himself.
> All other Christian values are aligned with the following.
> ...



None of these are exclusive christian values. Anyone may encompasse these traits.  Muslims, jews, pagans, hindus, buddahist,  anyone.


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## TheBishop (Nov 18, 2011)

gtparts said:


> the truth is that God has written some things on the hearts of all men



This is more along the line of what I'm thinking.


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## stringmusic (Nov 18, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Ronnie you answered it for me. The discussion is christian _values_ not about the historical figure jesus. If I wanted to debate the exsistence of jesus I would have started the thread in a much different place with a much different title.
> 
> Check and mate.



Why do you not capitalize Jesus?


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## stringmusic (Nov 18, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Thanks, RT. That you presented a list of Christian values is never quite enough with out the motivation behind the behavior. I was heartened that you included the reason behind the actions.
> 
> Bishop is right, in that those attributes are not all exclusive to Christians, but that is not the point. *Why we adhere to an ethical code and why non-Christians might do so, both have their origins in Him.* Whether we are moved in that direction because we seek to please Him or because we "just believe it is the right thing to do, while serving our own interests", the truth is that God has written some things on the hearts of all men. Even the least among us has some sense of right and wrong.
> 
> ...



There is the answer!


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## TheBishop (Nov 18, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Why do you not capitalize Jesus?



I don't care ......


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## stringmusic (Nov 18, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I don't care ......



You don't care about what, Jesus, or using correct punctuation?


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## TheBishop (Nov 18, 2011)

Either.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 18, 2011)

The world as a whole has been trying to make itself a better place. This has always been the basis for religion. The unadultrated gospel, refered to as "the way" in Acts, is very different than what is taught today. Today, churches teach how to "clean up the flesh". They try to teach values. They try to change "behavior" by slick words from the pulpit. This is not the gospel. The gospel is for those who have exausted themselves trying to be good enough or trying to help God save them and have given up from this work and rested fully in the finished work of Christ. These "values" are not ours. During this period of "work" whether in the church or solo, we realize Eve's original sin, coveting God's glory, to be like God, that everything is done for men to see. Hating that which we now see, in view of Christs humble work, we realize that this cannot be overcome. Our only way out is death. Being buried with him in baptismal, we figuratively tear down this man made temple, born again to a new man, a new creation, where God is the builder. These "values" are not ours, as if they were something to be obtained, but are a friut of the Spirits work in us.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 18, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Thanks for sharing this, to the point, info. Point number two reminded me of my moma's counsel, when I was a teenager, to not forget to respect wimen. I wish now she had said wimen and everyone else.
> 
> I am intreagued by your idea that christian values belong to deciples of Christ. Are you stating that this is the foremost value or that their are a series of values in being a deciple of Christ beyond your list? When you say, "all other values are aligned with the following;" are you saying there is another list unique to the deciples of Christ, or being a deciple is a single and unique value in itself?



As you know, there's a huge difference in "good values" and "Christian values".
And I'd presume that no other  would ever measure up to "Christian values" because they reflect back to God and His only begotten Son's values.

A person cannot connect any set of values to Christianity until that person allows those values to rest upon Christ Himself.

For instance, forgiving another person wouldn't be good enough!  One must forgive another person just as Christ would forgive another person.

Christian values aren't some abstract set of values that a person sets as their own........ Christian values are a standard that is sought as a person seeks to live for Christ.  Without Christ as the standard bearer, nothing will measure up.

And as your alluding, the list is unending.  I'm sure you have much more to add to the list.  Characteristics of Christ that belong on our values list.

And I guess we all still struggle with our "Christian values".  I know I do.  I often have to go out to the ol Christian workshop and sharpen up a trait here and there.
And get the rust off some I haven't used in a while.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> As you know, there's a huge difference in "good values" and "Christian values".
> And I'd presume that no other  would ever measure up to "Christian values" because they reflect back to God and His only begotten Son's values.
> 
> A person cannot connect any set of values to Christianity until that person allows those values to rest upon Christ Himself.
> ...



Thanks. Much appreciated. ( I mean getting the rust off.)

No but seriously thanks for the to-the-point explanation about good values in general and values from the ministry of Jesus and discipleship.


( Just as an aside, it came to me, for this tread and others, that from the perspective of being a disciple temptation is too much ish in the self; but from the perspective of a man of good values temptation is an object for judgement based on circumstance. Perhaps....)


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## Ronnie T (Nov 18, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> There has long been talk of this country founded on christian values. But I have some thoughts.
> 
> Are not christian values virtues of good or are they exclusive to christians?
> Christian values, by definition, are the values that Christ had, that are now being sought by His followers.
> ...



In the first 2 1/2 chapters of Romans, from the New Testament, the writer writes about the understands of the 'natural' man.  The human being that has been born but never been a follower of God.  
The writer says that the 'natural' man still knows the difference in right and wrong.  The insenuation is that God doesn't have to tell a person not to lie, for that person should 'naturally' know that it's wrong to lie.

So yes, all humans are born with the personal knowledge to do what's right.
But then society begins to impact that person's life.  It happens in France, Japan, China, S.Korea, Iran, and the USA.
So everything changes.

But Christian values aren't based on a nation or a society or the thoughts of a natural man.
In truth, Christian values are inattainable.  They are wholly sought, but never completely realized.

You do not see Christian values in American society today.  You might see Christian values in some individuals you work with or meet from time to time, and you'll immediately see that they are far different than most other people you know.  

Christian values aren't what you see in American society today.

Christian values say that you will give away your last dollar, or last 10,000 dollars, because you trust that God will take care of you when you're broke.
Christian values say that you'll bring that homeless old lady home with you and care for her rather than just giving her the three quarters.
Christian values say if you see someone without a coat, you'll take yours off and give yours to them.

And there are people in this country today who are living very closely to those values.  But those values are not the values of citizens of our nation.
Just being 'good' doesn't measure up to Christian values.


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## thedeacon (Nov 18, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Ronnie you answered it for me. The discussion is christian _values_ not about the historical figure jesus. If I wanted to debate the exsistence of jesus I would have started the thread in a much different place with a much different title.
> 
> Check and mate.



You can't discuss or debate anything "Christian" without "Jesus" entering the picture. Well, at least a "Christian" can't anyway.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 18, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Thanks. Much appreciated. ( I mean getting the rust off.)
> 
> No but seriously thanks for the to-the-point explanation about good values in general and values from the ministry of Jesus and discipleship.
> 
> ...



Yep.

I'm working (suppose to be) on a lesson concerning "God's faithfulness, and our faithfulness".
I began thinking, 'how to you teach someone to be faithful to others and to God?  My answer, you don't.  You can't plant an apple tree and teach it to produce oranges!  You can't even plant an apple tree and teach it to produce apples.  It will if its an apple tree.

And the same applies for me.  I will only be what I am.
If I'm faithful to God, I will be faithful.  If I am of God, I will be faithful.

Sames applies to Christian values.  You can try to imitate the Christian values you see in another person, but you'll never 'get it', unless you've been filled by Christ Himself.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> You can try to imitate the Christian values you see in another person, but you'll never 'get it', unless you've been filled by Christ Himself.



That's an important distinction.  Christianity is not a personal improvement program.  Christianity is Christ living in us.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 18, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> That's an important distinction.  Christianity is not a personal improvement program.  Christianity is Christ living in us.



Well, you certainly said it with fewer words than I did.
And your comment is clear, concise, and accurate.
Thanks.


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## Israel (Nov 18, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> The world as a whole has been trying to make itself a better place. This has always been the basis for religion. The unadultrated gospel, refered to as "the way" in Acts, is very different than what is taught today. Today, churches teach how to "clean up the flesh". They try to teach values. They try to change "behavior" by slick words from the pulpit. This is not the gospel. The gospel is for those who have exausted themselves trying to be good enough or trying to help God save them and have given up from this work and rested fully in the finished work of Christ. These "values" are not ours. During this period of "work" whether in the church or solo, we realize Eve's original sin, coveting God's glory, to be like God, that everything is done for men to see. Hating that which we now see, in view of Christs humble work, we realize that this cannot be overcome. Our only way out is death. Being buried with him in baptismal, we figuratively tear down this man made temple, born again to a new man, a new creation, where God is the builder. These "values" are not ours, as if they were something to be obtained, but are a friut of the Spirits work in us.



amen brother.
through death to _the life_ ...that cannot die.
no man can go apart from faith...and not just "any" faith...the faith of the Son of God...the only true faith delivered once to the saints.
All we have, if we have anything...is a gift.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Yep.
> 
> I'm working (suppose to be) on a lesson concerning "God's faithfulness, and our faithfulness".
> I began thinking, 'how to you teach someone to be faithful to others and to God?  My answer, you don't.  You can't plant an apple tree and teach it to produce oranges!  You can't even plant an apple tree and teach it to produce apples.  It will if its an apple tree.
> ...



Good point again. I am teaching sunday school to 10 and 11 yr olds. The example by word and action is always Jesus and it is amazing how quickly they grasp the essential values and how they know to apply it their lives, without trying to please the teacher, me! LOL Next year after Christmas they will be teenagers, and then they will have all kinds of models to apply to their lives, even to question and counter the easy road they are seeing in Jesus today. LOL Life is interesting.  Peace.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 20, 2011)

Israel said:


> amen brother.
> through death to _the life_ ...that cannot die.
> no man can go apart from faith...and not just "any" faith...the faith of the Son of God...the only true faith delivered once to the saints.
> All we have, if we have anything...is a gift.




Yes I suppose. Bartolomaous in Mark was saved and healed for his faith, even before Jesus was his intimate model--even before he recieved his gift of sight. Bartolomaous was saved for his faith, but also saved due to his seeing, and seeing his ability to follow...and so on...

I often wonder if his faith was not simply a confidence in calling Jesus the Son of David and asking for pity and being blind, asking in faith in asking David's son to see--and a life change from a blind beggar, to a seer, to a follower and onto  vital actor.

His was a mighty faith and spirituality and it was after recieving sight that he followed Jesus Mark says. I wonder if he ever became a disciple? Many follow the Son of David yet I fear to never know the faith in the Son of God--as you state.

I often wonder now were salvation really begins. Mark says Bartolomeous called out and was called. Jesus said bring him to me and what do you want?  Jesus said,"Your faith has saved you." and Bart's sight was restored. 

Today our faith would scarcely come to calling out Son of David have pity on me or us. Ours is not that kind of faith. But I often wonder if for our brand of faith we do not call out to His followers and desciples, "Hurry, come Lord, make my eyes to close." And Him being here now, the crowd just flows by--leaving us, our generation, with our eyes scaled up in hope.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 20, 2011)

Quote 1gr8bldr: "I have wondered about Jesus healing this man because his mindset was probably in the Jewish anticipation of a political "son of David", which is not what we put our faith in. Are we to think that he understood then what we know now? Maybe so, its the only thing that makes sense to me" end quote. 
__________________
1gr8bldr I dragged this here from an other thread. I hope it was your intention to post it here. If not, let me know and I'll zap it.


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## Israel (Nov 21, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Yes I suppose. Bartolomaous in Mark was saved and healed for his faith, even before Jesus was his intimate model--even before he recieved his gift of sight. Bartolomaous was saved for his faith, but also saved due to his seeing, and seeing his ability to follow...and so on...
> 
> I often wonder if his faith was not simply a confidence in calling Jesus the Son of David and asking for pity and being blind, asking in faith in asking David's son to see--and a life change from a blind beggar, to a seer, to a follower and onto  vital actor.
> 
> ...



I have seen men as trees walking. I have seen I need more sight. Perhaps you are on your thousandth touch, while I remain somewhere lagging at two or three...God knows.
But it is true that what we start with is what we continue with, Ask, seek, knock...till it's all clear.
Even so, come Lord.


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