# What are your feelings on once saved always saved.



## j_seph

My belief is that once saved always saved. Christ came once, died once for our sins.


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## centerpin fan




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## MX5HIGH

Do feelings really matter?  What does the word say?


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## NE GA Pappy

MX5HIGH said:


> Do feelings really matter?  What does the word say?



whoop.  there it is!


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## Big7

Once saved is NOWHERE in the Bible..
KJV and variants.. Maybe.

A declaration is not enough.

I could declare I'm a rocket brain surgeon and that
would not make it true. 

Faith without works is dead. (James)


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## hobbs27

If saved always saved. God doesn't make mistakes.


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## welderguy

Ephesians 4:30

 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Philippians 1:6

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

John 6:39

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 10:28

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


Romans 8:35-39

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


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## Artfuldodger

John 3:16, God doesn't make mistakes.


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## Artfuldodger

I have wondered what this means though;

Romans 11:20-22
20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. 22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

You've got this one group that was in but were broken off because of unbelief. Then another group that was out is now grafted in. If this group continues in their faith, they will remain in. But if they are arrogant, and don't remain in God's kindness. If they think they are "all that" because God hardened the first group to let them in, then they too can be "cut off."

"Cut off"

Then if the first group doesn't continue in their unbelief, they can be grafted back in again.

That's a lot of out, in, out, in for a once saved, always saved religion.


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## gordon 2

If today's saved people who return to the world for not caring to listen to our pastor's voice are still saved... that is, that God can not take away their lamp stand even if he wanted to because he has somehow promised osas , even to the saint that is stingy or miserly with love, guarded even of it as something not to trust or to mistrust in his life ( existance)... Yes osas! 

Or simply if saved people decide that the church is a money racket as an excuse not to worship as members of the church or that they are going to do the best they can in a corrupt world without the humbug of the "church" and they are still saved... Yes osas.

Or if saved people knowingly make evil to seem good for motives that do not glorify God... and they are still saved... 
Yes osas. Of course.

Or if people who said that they thought that they were saved once, but now don't believe in God or they "don't believe in anything" including the need for salvation... are still saved. Yes osas.

Those are some of my "feelings" on it.


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## j_seph

welderguy said:


> Ephesians 4:30
> 
> And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
> 
> Philippians 1:6
> 
> Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
> 
> John 6:39
> 
> 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
> 
> John 10:28
> 
> And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
> 
> 
> Romans 8:35-39
> 
> 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
> 
> 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
> 
> 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
> 
> 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
> 
> 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Thank you


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## Artfuldodger

What separates the Sheep from the Goats? Something about feeding and helping poor people but maybe that has nothing to do with salvation. It could be just a parable about something else.


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## Artfuldodger

1 Timothy 4:1 
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 

Matthew 7:21  
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


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## hobbs27

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Eternal means forever.right?


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## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> I have wondered what this means though;
> 
> Romans 11:20-22
> 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. 22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
> 
> You've got this one group that was in but were broken off because of unbelief. Then another group that was out is now grafted in. If this group continues in their faith, they will remain in. But if they are arrogant, and don't remain in God's kindness. If they think they are "all that" because God hardened the first group to let them in, then they too can be "cut off."
> 
> "Cut off"
> 
> Then if the first group doesn't continue in their unbelief, they can be grafted back in again.
> 
> That's a lot of out, in, out, in for a once saved, always saved religion.



I would doubt deeply that statement if it means this: That those "in" believe God hardened what you call the first group to let them in.
Now if it means  (if indeed any of the "they" be "in") that  ignorant of God's work in hardening and showing mercy, they believed themselves "all that", I could more easily understand.
Do you see?
If one is actually aware that was is "in" because it is solely upon the work of God...any pride about being "in", must be abolished. Would be abolished, for he would have to discover his "in-ness" was never anything of his own work, will, or desire, but all dependent upon God who has shown him mercy.

"Will" worship done in ignorance has a remedy. Jesus spoke of it. Continuing in his word. For what a man starts of his own will, he must sustain of his own will, and he will soon find, such is insufficient to the presence of God in Christ.


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> What separates the Sheep from the Goats? Something about feeding and helping poor people but maybe that has nothing to do with salvation. It could be just a parable about something else.



This is what separates.It's all about whether God ordained it or not.

Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed.

This verse is just as important as John 3:16,but folks hardly ever quote it.It's always just John 3:16.


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## formula1

If I were to say I believed in Christ and yet not walk in Him, would what I say matter at all?  In other words, is that Love?  Is that repentance? Is that abiding? Is that walking with Him?  What does saying do if it is not followed with action?

One who realizes the great mercy and love God has granted freely to him is never the same.  Ever!  

Those who are being transformed by His Love are OSAS!

There is clear evidence of salvation. One who loves makes decisions to please the Lord he loves and feels the conviction of the Lord when God's will and his own don't match.  Instead of being a slave to sin, you are convicted when you do sin and have become a slave to the righteousness of God.

One who does not love and does not live to please the Lord is not saved.  He feels no conviction and sin still is his master.

I hope though that anyone who reads these scriptures might see just how much God loved us and gave for us that we might become His!  I only encourage everyone to fall in love with the Lord!  He is worthy!

Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 2
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


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## Artfuldodger

Matt 6:14-15
14 "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 "But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


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## Artfuldodger

The following is from the Old Testament. Now we know that not sinning never saved anyone. That salvation has always been by grace.
So what does the following mean passage mean?

Ezek 18:23-28
23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die.
27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life.
28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die.


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## j_seph

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Timothy 4:1
> Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,


My take on this is if you read on into this in We are being told that people will do as it says in *1-3 "**
Now  the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall  depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of  devils; *
*<sup class="versenum">2 </sup>Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;*
*<sup class="versenum">3 </sup>Forbidding  to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created  to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the  truth."*
*
*
When we get on down it tells us as Christians what we should do

*
4:6 it says"<sup class="versenum"> </sup>If  thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a  good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of  good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained."* 

and on down into *14-16 "
**<sup class="versenum">14 </sup>Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.*
*<sup class="versenum">15 </sup>Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.*
*<sup class="versenum">16 </sup>Take  heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in  doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."*

This is part of our works, that we do as we are commanded, for in doing so shalt save thyself and them that hear thee. Brings to my thought as well 
Matthew 18:16-17 
<sup class="versenum">16 </sup>But  if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in  the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
 <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>And  if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he  neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a  publican.


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## j_seph

formula1 said:


> If I were to say I believed in Christ and yet not walk in Him, would what I say matter at all?  In other words, is that Love?  Is that repentance? Is that abiding? Is that walking with Him?  What does saying do if it is not followed with action?


Was it said to just be saying it or was it the drawing spirit
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


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## formula1

*re:*



j_seph said:


> Was it said to just be saying it or was it the drawing spirit
> John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.



Good verse!

Words along with a transformed life show the fruit of the action of the Spirit who draws, saves, and justifies!


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## welderguy

j_seph said:


> Was it said to just be saying it or was it the drawing spirit
> John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.



J_seph,
Are you struggling with assurance of your salvation? Or is your query just something you wanted to study out?

I ask because I believe all God's people have times of doubt from time to time.(I sure do)

There's help for that though.


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## j_seph

welderguy said:


> J_seph,
> Are you struggling with assurance of your salvation? Or is your query just something you wanted to study out?
> 
> I ask because I believe all God's people have times of doubt from time to time.(I sure do)
> 
> There's help for that though.


Brother thanks for caring enough to ask that, I as well have had doubt before but if I never had then what would I have to doubt? I was just curious as to why some say they do not believe in once saved, always saved. I am young in my walk with Christ, not that I just recently got saved but the fact I stepped away from him and kept living of this world and through his grace, conviction my walk is on the right path now. I love hearing others takes on how they interpret scripture and pray that maybe I read understand something that the Lord will give me the words to express it so other may see. No doubts on my salvation, I have had that heart pounding experience many times when your led to say or do something. I also have been taught as well that you better just do what he ask of you in faith and not hinder the spirit by not doing so (things always work out better if ya just do what he says)


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## centerpin fan

j_seph said:


> I was just curious as to why some say they do not believe in once saved, always saved.


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## Artfuldodger

I wonder if Paul's letters to Timothy are some of the hardest to meld with a OSAS belief?

1 Timothy 1:18-20
18Timothy, my child, I entrust you with this command in keeping with the previous prophecies about you, so that by them you may fight the good fight, 19holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith.  20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Paul is confusing, He speaks of predestination and then speaks of falling away. How can one save themselves?
Paul preaches to persevere.


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## gordon 2

centerpin fan said:


>



Now that's preaching.  And isn't this video uncommonly long for centerpin fan? What's up with that?


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## welderguy

gordon 2 said:


> Now that's preaching.



Not in my estimation.He kept saying the Hebrew saints were unbelievers.
The writer of Hebrews says differently.
He only read the first part of chapter 6, and left out vs 9 through the end of the chapter.Which tells us the reality.

Hebrews 6:9

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.


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## centerpin fan

gordon 2 said:


> ... isn't this video uncommonly long for centerpin fan? What's up with that?



Yes, it is.  I rarely post a video longer than a minute, but the man asked for the reasoning behind the belief.  It just so happens that this one took an hour.


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## hawglips

The Word doesn't say "once saved always saved."

But it does say there are lots of things we must do to be saved.  And the parable of the 10 virgins is a good warning to anyone thinking they can sleep through their life instead of remaining vigilant.


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## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> He kept saying the Hebrew saints were unbelievers.



The guy in the video does not believe that, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.


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## hummerpoo

To understand his interpretation of scripture one must see his understanding of what a "believer" is.  I do not find the "believer" he talks about at 47:00—47:45, referred to as a true believer in scripture (that being the believer who is willfully disobedient), but it does explain much of what he sees in scripture.  He illustrates this, unintentionally I believe, just prior to 47:00 with an example of unfaithfulness which he attributes to the teaching of eternal security; but could in fact only be attributable to "said faith".


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## Artfuldodger

2 Corinthians 11:2-4
I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3 I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> 2 Corinthians 11:2-4
> I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3 I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily.




You realize that does not pertain to us..don't you?


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## furtaker

"He who believes in the Son has (present tense) everlasting life."  If it's everlasting then it lasts forever.  Jesus said so.

What the eternal security debate really boils down to is whether you believe salvation is by grace or by works.  There are no other mind games you can play to explain it any other way.


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## NE GA Pappy

2 Peter 2:20-21

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.


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## Artfuldodger

furtaker said:


> "He who believes in the Son has (present tense) everlasting life."  If it's everlasting then it lasts forever.  Jesus said so.
> 
> What the eternal security debate really boils down to is whether you believe salvation is by grace or by works.  There are no other mind games you can play to explain it any other way.



Would one have to produce fruit(works)?

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men.10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 

"but you were washed"

Easy believism vs lordship salvation; the great debate continues.

The way I've had it explained to me is; salvation is free and has nothing to do from us. God elects an individual and then the individual receives the Holy Spirit at the individuals effective calling.  The Holy Spirit produces fruit within that person or at least guides that person to produce fruit. 

The fruit(works) are the proof of his regeneration. We usually have this debate concerning homosexuals. I guess they make the best example, for some reason, over drunkards or lustful people.

Repentance? Is it the ability to quit sinning(works) or is the realization that one can't quit sinning and thus need Jesus as a savior from the non-ability to quit sinning?


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> You realize that does not pertain to us..don't you?



2 Corinthians 11:22
Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham's descendants? So am I.

 Revelation 19:7
Let us rejoice and be glad
    and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
    and his bride has made herself ready.

Was the elect or bride able to be led astray?

Could they receive a different spirit than the One they received, or a different gospel than the one they accepted?

When did the Bride make herself ready and how?


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## Artfuldodger

Romans 8:29-30
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Consummation? Of course. Off track? Not really.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 8:29-30
> 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.


It is God's work, not mine.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> 2 Corinthians 11:22
> Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham's descendants? So am I.
> 
> Revelation 19:7
> Let us rejoice and be glad
> and give him glory!
> For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
> and his bride has made herself ready.
> 
> Was the elect or bride able to be led astray?
> 
> Could they receive a different spirit than the One they received, or a different gospel than the one they accepted?
> 
> When did the Bride make herself ready and how?



Yes, They could be led away. Salvation was already..but not yet. Salvation as we know it requires the presence of Christ, He went away for a little while, but until the Parousia ( (presence)  man was left with a symbolic water baptism and the comforter...Holy Spirit.


The bride is New Jerusalem , it is the Kingdom, it is a spiritual city of all the saved. The people of faith made up the inhabitants of the city, but Rev. 19:9 shows people that held the faith up to the wedding were guests.

Without a wedding Christ does rule over his bride as a husband..without the wedding He is not King of Kings.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, They could be led away. Salvation was already..but not yet. Salvation as we know it requires the presence of Christ, He went away for a little while, but until the Parousia ( (presence)  man was left with a symbolic water baptism and the comforter...Holy Spirit.
> 
> The bride is New Jerusalem , it is the Kingdom, it is a spiritual city of all the saved. The people of faith made up the inhabitants of the city, but Rev. 19:9 shows people that held the faith up to the wedding were guests.
> 
> Without a wedding Christ does rule over his bride as a husband..without the wedding He is not King of Kings.



If the bride could be led away from their simple and pure devotion to Christ, why can't we?


2 Corinthians 11:2-4
I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3 I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> If the bride could be led away from their simple and pure devotion to Christ, why can't we?
> 
> 
> 2 Corinthians 11:2-4
> I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3 I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily.



Read this parable in the fulfilled mindset, and I think it will explain your question.

 22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


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## gordon 2

gemcgrew said:


> It is God's work, not mine.




I hope I understand here. Salvation is entirely the work of God? And to be predestined includes a soul's will as being exceptionally picked out to respond only in the affirmative to the call of salvation? The predestined don't have a soul capable to refuse the call of God, nor the will to influence the course of their spiritual lives?

I hope I understand your view correctly?

PS... Is predestination as I understand it above ( if correct) the cause of the belief in once saved always saved?

Your response to Art was accompanied by this from Art:

Originally Posted by Artfuldodger 
Romans 8:29-30
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.


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## Artfuldodger

In the parable above they are looking for guests, not a bride.

I can see Jerusalem destroyed and the servants going out into the country to gather Gentiles as guests, not a bride.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment.

Who was this and is this and was he the one led astray in 2 Corinthians 11:2-4?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Hebrews 10:26
Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.

Was this before Christ died? I thought his death covered all sins.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Galatians 5:4: 'You are separated from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by Law, you have fallen from grace." 

If I was to suddenly think the law would save me, would I fall from grace? If I suddenly stopped believing in OSAS, and felt like I must perform works, would I fall from grace?


----------



## hobbs27

Art..I think many people make the mistake of thinking the old covenant was finished and the new was in it's fullness at the cross. The King hadn't burned the city yet at the cross, and the wedding hadn't took place for the new covenant to be in its fullness....but the wedding to place right after the city was burned in 70ad.


----------



## centerpin fan




----------



## welderguy

centerpin fan said:


>



Yep


----------



## gordon 2

centerpin fan said:


>


----------



## Artfuldodger

Romans 8:29-30
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified. 

Gordon asked "Is predestination as I understand it above ( if correct) the cause of the belief in once saved always saved?

Makes me ask "does OSAS remove one's freewill to leave Christianity?


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 8:29-30
> 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.
> 
> Gordon asked "Is predestination as I understand it above ( if correct) the cause of the belief in once saved always saved?
> 
> Makes me ask "does OSAS remove one's freewill to leave Christianity?


This:
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=873774


----------



## gordon 2

My fellow forumers let me make this perfectly clear...

No wait... perfection  is not my gift, if I have any...


However...it seems  that the phrase " For those God foreknew,"... refers to the context of the preceeding verse... and indeed the whole chapter.

    28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

So the ones foreknown are those who love God and are called to His purpose as in self ( what is my purpose) ,  God's purpose for others,  His purpose regards the world,  and the universe etc...

Or in my words the foreknown are the folk ( the pilgrims) that are awed by the God of Abraham, Moses, Micah... Peter, Paul and Mary and Gregs and Wandas and Ralphs today.

Now these folks are all predestined in God's plan because God's plan is plain but only if they choose to knock will that door open, only if they want to go along with Jesus and the body of believers and live what God has predestined,

So yes those he predestined he called, but some that were called did not answer the call and were not predestined. 

As far as I can tell, it takes a willingness on the part of believer to meet the willingness of God and share in relationship. Otherwise a living soul might as well be a bobcat and live by feasts and famines.

But hey I'm not the brightest in my family, for example my brother Darrell says some real high education things simply by doing wise things he learned from church ( Darrell got all of his grade 9 in and don't read much , but has good hearing) by being kind and patient with high-talk over-reachers like his brother Gordo...

So hey... maybe I'm missing Darrell's smarts on this one.


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> My fellow forumers let me make this perfectly clear...
> 
> No wait... perfection  is not my gift, if I have any...
> 
> 
> However...it seems  that the phrase " For those God foreknew,"... refers to the context of the preceeding verse... and indeed the whole chapter.
> 
> 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
> 
> So the ones foreknown are those who love God and are called to His purpose as in self ( what is my purpose) ,  God's purpose for others,  His purpose regards the world,  and the universe etc...
> 
> Or in my words the foreknown are the folk ( the pilgrims) that are awed by the God of Abraham, Moses, Micah... Peter, Paul and Mary and Gregs and Wandas and Ralphs today.
> 
> Now these folks are all predestined in God's plan because God's plan is plain but only if they choose to knock will that door open, only if they want to go along with Jesus and the body of believers and live what God has predestined,
> 
> So yes those he predestined he called, but some that were called did not answer the call and were not predestined.
> 
> As far as I can tell, it takes a willingness on the part of believer to meet the willingness of God and share in relationship. Otherwise a living soul might as well be a bobcat and live by feasts and famines.
> 
> But hey I'm not the brightest in my family, for example my brother Darrell says some real high education things simply by doing wise things he learned from church ( Darrell got all of his grade 9 in and don't read much , but has good hearing) by being kind and patient with high-talk over-reachers like his brother Gordo...
> 
> So hey... maybe I'm missing Darrell's smarts on this one.




You will never make choice fit in predestination. It's like oil and water.


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 8:29-30
> 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.
> 
> Gordon asked "Is predestination as I understand it above ( if correct) the cause of the belief in once saved always saved?
> 
> Makes me ask "does OSAS remove one's freewill to leave Christianity?



People that should be explaining themselves are just not up to it I guess. Even Hawglips is behaving like a trool on his tread as he's not answering my question regard who are the neo-christians . For a guy that knows lots about who neo-cons, cons and who socialist liberals are and is not afraid to say so... it is kind of strange that he does not declare on his own tread?!!!! 

O well....

I have to wonder which states have the highest persentage of osas believers needing the remedy Hawglips' link suggests. If in fact he agrees as I seem to understand  the link that osas believers are the cause of the giant holey basket caper that is ripping society  to the level of a disfunctional and failed nation....


I hope I'm exaggerating... if only people and Hawglips could pipe up... I would know.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> You will never make choice fit in predestination. It's like oil and water.



Thanks bros. And going to the moon was a hoax...?

 Seems to me that it is going to be possible to  blast oil and water with 
 warm fresh air and   maybe  you'd get an essence that can stand by itself...

But thanks...

Also I remember when they said the Dixie Chicks were all washed up for some odd reason... by hey...


----------



## hobbs27

gordon said:
			
		

> Also I remember when they said the Dixie Chicks were all washed up for some odd reason... by hey...



Who?


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Who?



I think it was the King James only crowd, if my recall is correct. It was a few yrs back. They might not have been the only ones.  I recall they had a hate on them for some reason I never fully understood. Personally I like their art work.


----------



## centerpin fan




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## rjcruiser

I wonder if I can un-elect myself.


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## centerpin fan




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## gordon 2

I like your short vids better.


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## gordon 2

rjcruiser said:


> I wonder if I can un-elect myself.



Yea. It is called stepping down.


----------



## Israel

To say all starts and ends with God, His will, (oh, how I hate to talk about Him like He's in the other room, don't you?)...should it be for any of us odd... as to be strange in the hearing? What molecule (of man, starfish, or bit of dust on some planet farthest away, and never seen)...is not kept perfectly to the order of God's will?
And as to immaterial things, how large do we care to make the will of man? It must be (at best) either equal or less than that of our God. We know it cannot be greater. (Don't we?) 

Does it matter how large it may seem in its "freedom", if it is less, it is then less...whether appearing to us as huge as the Sun...or as small as that molecule of dust. For if the will of God encompasses all things created...and even as to our knowledge, uncreated, really...what is the will of man but infinitely small, then? It is either "contained" completely, irrevocably by the will of God, (for whatever his purpose) or that other option is true. Man's will is equal...to God's will.
(the believer will have the knowledge of this in himself, manifested)
What then, of choice? What then of those places we see choice offered? "Choose ye this day whom you will serve, if the Lord be God serve Him, if Baal be god, serve him...(then)." Is not the choice a "given" thing...from God? In other words, that word comes out from God with the power of choice in it, it is not even there "to that man" who does not believe the Lord...is God. Is it? Is it calling a man to make a choice, according to his will "I will make the Lord...God?"...Or is it more to allow that man to be reminded to live according to the truth he recognizes? "I have you called thee to record this day before Heaven and Earth, and set before you blessings and cursings, life and death, therfore...choose life" Not only does the word from God come with the power to make plain there is a difference between life and death, blessings and cursings...but also with the express instruction...of what to choose. All the power...to choose, to recognize, to discern...whence its origin? Is it "from the man?"

Two men may say "I will know God"...(or ten, or a thousand).
But, we are men. Some of us dwell with women. Feel free to tell us how far your will goes to knowing her. If she, at any time senses your will is operating to know her, instead of love to know her...discerned...(and many a silly woman is made wise by error in mistaking one for the other), what will she do when she feels the incursion of nothing more than "your will" to know? 
Yes, in it all, love is always and absolutely key in any true relating...communication, being _together._ Do we know this? Have we not learned, in truth, or are learning (in whatever measure)...this...in the presence of the one to whom all is open and laid bare...with whom we have to do. Have you discovered you had some "love tricks"? Had them exposed? But this is the thing...having come to see that...even what you may ascribe as the most pure, noble, irreduceably sublime thing you know..."your love"...once exposed as having (at least) a few faults to be found of it, and no longer able to even be sure you love what you say you love, for as said...even there, some deceits have been uncovered...your stand will never again be upon how much you believe you love God. It can only be in this, "the Lord knows those that are His"...and..."the Lord knows those who love him"...even if they can't even persuade themselves (one could say here that that would be a particularly comforting thought to one disabused of the imagined purity of his own motives, his own will, even his own love...and cause him, thereby to seek only one thing, single of eye...be pressed to perhaps...be squeezed and narrowed down to nothing left of the vanity of believing he can do one thing "toward God"...and there be content, in all, to begin to know what all God alone, has done toward him.)
We would see Jesus.


----------



## hobbs27

Banjo Picker said:


> Amen !  You are right its nowhere in the bible once saved always saved I'll put a thread on it some time.



What's wrong with this one?


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> I think it was the King James only crowd, if my recall is correct. It was a few yrs back. They might not have been the only ones.  I recall they had a hate on them for some reason I never fully understood. Personally I like their art work.



KJV only have an art gallery ?


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> I wonder if I can un-elect myself.



Only if free will is true. 

Seriously though, any views on God electing a remnant, blinding the rest, electing the Gentiles, waiting for the full number to come in, and re-electing the Jews he hardened earlier as describe in Romans 11?

This is related to OSAS in that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and graft Israel back in again.

Of course one could say that in their hardened capacity, Israel was still of the elect in that God knew he would graft them back in again after the full number of Gentiles comes in.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> This is what separates.It's all about whether God ordained it or not.
> 
> Acts 13:48
> 
> 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed.
> 
> This verse is just as important as John 3:16,but folks hardly ever quote it.It's always just John 3:16.



    “Some claim that the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as comments from early church writers, indicate
    that the first 15 chapters of Acts were probably written first in Hebrew. The Greek would be a
    translation… going back to a “redacted Hebrew” version, based upon word-for-word Greek-Hebrew
    equivalents, would render Acts 13:48 more like “as many as submitted to, needed, or wanted salvation, were saved.”

    Dave Hunt, What Love is This? 3rd Edition, 2006, page 264
http://www.freewill-predestination.com/acts13.html

If one is predestined then he surely will persevere to the end. If God sees you in Heaven even before you get there then that's where you'll be, no ands, ifs, or buts.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Romans 8:28
And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.

Ephesians 1:4
For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love

Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11
In Him we were also chosen as God's own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will,

Romans 9:8
n other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

Romans 9:23
What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory?

How can we not finish the race if we are children of the promise?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Romans 9:31-33
31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”

Could works still be considered a stumbling stone? Could someone not have enough faith that they feel the need to produce works and therefore stumble over the stumbling stone?
The one who believes in Him will never be put to shame. What does it mean to "believe in Him?"

You reckon it means we couldn't save ourselves by works and therefore must repent from that belief to a belief that Jesus died for our sins?

Do you realize it was God who lay the stumbling stone in Zion? Wow!

Romans 11:5-6
5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace. 

You reckon God still chooses using his grace way or does he now use the works method for choosing?


----------



## gemcgrew

gordon 2 said:


> I hope I understand here. Salvation is entirely the work of God?


Yes. It is entirely the work of God alone. He does not consult with man in the matter.


gordon 2 said:


> And to be predestined includes a soul's will as being exceptionally picked out to respond only in the affirmative to the call of salvation?The predestined don't have a soul capable to refuse the call of God, nor the will to influence the course of their spiritual lives?


Particularly created for that very purpose. God is not subject to our will. We are subject to God's will.

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy" (Romans 9:15-16)




gordon 2 said:


> I hope I understand your view correctly?
> 
> PS... Is predestination as I understand it above ( if correct) the cause of the belief in once saved always saved?


The cause is God's sovereign will.


gordon 2 said:


> Your response to Art was accompanied by this from Art:
> 
> Originally Posted by Artfuldodger
> Romans 8:29-30
> 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.


Yes. The foreknowing, predestinating, calling, justifying and glorifying is God's work alone.


----------



## Israel

The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.…


Is there a place where the futility of will (we may call it a place, a thing, an instrument, a spiritual reality granted us) is made perfectly clear?


----------



## gordon 2

Israel said:


> The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.…
> 
> 
> Is there a place where the futility of will (we may call it a place, a thing, an instrument, a spiritual reality granted us) is made perfectly clear?



On my mother's lap as she read to me that the Pharaoh ( a King) was stubborn to no end against God was perhaps my first very clear  encounter in a spiritual sense on the futility of will, and the meanings of freedom and bondage. I was perhaps three or four yrs old.


----------



## j_seph

Israel said:


> "Choose ye this day whom you will serve, if the Lord be God serve Him, if Baal be god, serve him...(then)." Is not the choice a "given" thing...from God? In other words, that word comes out from God with the power of choice in it,


Was 1 Kings 18:21 not Elijah asking the question, not God asking?
<sup class="versenum">21 </sup>And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.


----------



## Artfuldodger

A retraction to my post #70. 

It was brought to my attention the author of the link I posted was not correct with his research on the Dead Sea scrolls and early Church writers.
The author was Dave Hunt.

http://www.challies.com/articles/as-many-as-wanted-salvation-were-saved


----------



## gemcgrew

j_seph said:


> Was 1 Kings 18:21 not Elijah asking the question, not God asking?
> <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.


Elijah definitely asked the question. Whence came the question? Who directed Elijah to go and speak so boldly? Did he perform anything by any power of his own?

The prophets of God speak God's word.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> Only if free will is true.



Another reason why I don't believe in free will.


----------



## Israel

j_seph said:


> Was 1 Kings 18:21 not Elijah asking the question, not God asking?
> <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.



Thank you for correcting my conflating of two scriptures, your quote was direct, mine from an error.
And to the point, perhaps precisely, that this correction now emphasizes.
There is a compelling from God, through Christ particularly (if not exclusively), toward each and every man to manifest his ownership. And each must. For it is the will of God to display what is His.

Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? No, it is for this purpose that I have come to this hour. Father, glorify Your name!” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.”

Let us make man in our image and in our likeness.

Therefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though you know them, and are established in the present truth.


O, to know the grace to be seen in God's will of shamelessly repeating Himself.


----------



## hobbs27

I guess no one has figured out all the seemingly double talk of free will and predestination in the NT?


----------



## Israel

hobbs27 said:


> I guess no one has figured out all the seemingly double talk of free will and predestination in the NT?




Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. A slave is not a permanent member of the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.…


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> I guess no one has figured out all the seemingly double talk of free will and predestination in the NT?




Why do you say seemingly? Are you double talking?

Or we all are predestined to live under grace or wrath or both and some have freewill to chose to various degree depending on the freewill they have. Freewill is not the same for everyone, because knowledge to exercise it is different for everyone depending on grace, sin, ignorance, consciousness etc....

Adam and Eve's freewill must of been very different than their descendants 20 generations down the road. Their start line was one of total grace, while the great great  grand kids were a ways of from knowing it. And such is the case now perhaps, except the other way around. For example Steven the deacon who was stoned was full of Grace, I suspect that his will was freer than mine. My fight or flight mechanics might not have uttered " Forgive them." when the rocks were actually flying and landing on me!


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Why do you say seemingly? Are you double taking?
> 
> Or we all are predestined to live under grace or wrath or both and some have freewill to chose to various degree depending on the freewill they have. Freewill is not the same for everyone, because knowledge to exercise it is different for everyone depending on grace, sin, ignorance, consciousness etc....
> 
> Adam and Eve's freewill must of been very different than their descendants 20 generations down the road. Their start line was one of total grace, while the great great  grand kids were a ways of from knowing it. And such is the case now perhaps, except the other way around. For example Steven the deacon who was stoned was full of Grace, I suspect that his will was freer than mine.




I know from years of study, when I think scripture is contradicting itself... then I am misunderstanding something, and just need to continue with prayer and study. This is why I say " seemingly" .

Did Adam and eve know pure grace? There was that one thing...


----------



## hobbs27

Israel said:


> Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. A slave is not a permanent member of the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.…



My understanding is that sin requires law and death requires sin. No law,  no sin, no death.

One may need to discern on the nature of death, and the difference in sin and transgression.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> I know from years of study, when I think scripture is contradicting itself... then I am misunderstanding something, and just need to continue with prayer and study. This is why I say " seemingly" .
> 
> Did Adam and eve know pure grace? There was that one thing...



Well the account relates they walked with the Creator and were sinless, needing not the knowledge of good and evil. By my understanding of grace this would be ideal for Gordo or most anyone else.


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Well the account relates they walked with the Creator and were sinless, needing not the knowledge of good and evil. By my understanding of grace this would be ideal for Gordo or most anyone else.



Yes, but if they did that one thing..then in that day they would die.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, but if they did that one thing..then in that day they would die.



Yep. They had free choice as humans do. They needed free choice to name and oversee.  So what was " to die"? is perhaps the reverse of " What is salvation and everlasting life today?" 

They were not dead spiritually after the fall, their son Cain knew to petition God. They placed themselves as judges even above God and their physical and spiritual situations changed from bliss to sweating it. 

I don't understand that "full of grace" does not include free will, although I realise some do. For my brain predestination is not the casing of  a cosmology, but rather a player in it and a minor deal in the scheme of things.


 Oh, and one can sin without the law. All you got to do is disregard the Holy Spirit and common sense.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I guess no one has figured out all the seemingly double talk of free will and predestination in the NT?



I think Paul was the worse. Why just in Romans 9-11 he goes back and forth, back and forth.

Or is it "to and fro?"

Maybe free will did start in 70AD. I don't see much of it before then.
After it was finished, God could finally sit back and say, OK now that I've orchestrated the events needed to make everything come about, I'll let chance and free will  in the world and let individuals choose their own destiny.
I'll let nature happen as it may, viruses mutating and evolving. Cancers developing due to man's chemicals and not being good environmental stewards. Farms washing away due to bad farming practices. Starvation due to diseases and food sources drying up. It's possible.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I think Paul was the worse. Why just in Romans 9-11 he goes back and forth, back and forth.
> 
> Or is it "to and fro?"
> 
> Maybe free will did start in 70AD. I don't see much of it before then.
> After it was finished, God could finally sit back and say, OK now that I've orchestrated the events needed to make everything come about, I'll let chance and free will  in the world and let individuals choose their own destiny.
> I'll let nature happen as it may, viruses mutating and evolving. Cancers developing due to man's chemicals and not being good environmental stewards. Farms washing away due to bad farming practices. Starvation due to diseases and food sources drying up. It's possible.




Something came to an end, there's no more scripture.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Something came to an end, there's no more scripture.




Or something began.

1.) Prophets are no longer a premium commodity. Lots of them now. 

2. God is the teacher directly now.  ( No need to rummage in scripture to find the scoop on the when of eternal life.)

3. The Good News is sufficiently explained in four gospel accounts, the acts of the Apostles and the letters of the early church fathers.

4. God living with believers through Jesus on earth in the hearts of believers, as head of his church and king of our present kingdom on earth and in heaven is perhaps the reasons for traditional scripture as we know it has changed. 

Things get written in the hearts of the saints now and in the hearts of those who are called to presided over them. And we can find many books on these if we wish to, their examples and words...being not their will, but the will of Him.


----------



## hobbs27

Yes Gordon. Something ended...and something began.


----------



## Artfuldodger

"written in the hearts"

I've been thinking a lot about change or evolution within the timeline of our human existence. 
I know some will say nothing has ever changed. To begin with wasn't "written in their hearts" a change? Wasn't there a time when it wasn't "written in their hearts?"

I see things being different before the Cross or 70AD. I see changes. I see the chosen children of God as being Israel. I see, because of their blindness, Gentiles being grafted in. 
I see the Church added to Israel, not becoming Israel.
I don't see the Church as always being Israel.

I too see something ending and something beginning. I see people that aren't washed being washed.

I see change and evolution.


----------



## Israel

The principle of deception is so strong only a dead man can escape it. He may see it, mouth its operation, even tremble before its awful power. He knows, of himself, he cannot be its master. Were this not so, those we hold in esteem would not have said this thing:

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Had Paul any faith in his own will, he would neither have seen this, nor been able to say it.  (since the matter of will so often presents itself)

A man would like to nail his stance before men and God as final, immovable, unshakeable...but the man of God comes to see this very thing as the herald of deception, its very invitation. He may see this desire working in himself as the deception itself "I will be as God" (final, immoveable, unshakeable). 

To be in truth then must come a revelation that a man cannot, of himself, keep himself anywhere relative to it. He is either in a blind trust, so to speak, or not. Only Jesus Christ is able to teach a man he can live there, this place where he must surrender the notion that a man even knows himself, of himself, at all.

"But this is where I live" he cries, "nothing is better known to me than my own home!"

And Peter said, Man, I know not what you say. And immediately, while he yet spoke, the cock crowed.

Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift each of you like wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith will not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”…

Will you make your own will the offering? I have.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see his seed.
Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Yes Gordon. Something ended...and something began.



The law did not end in my view. "Good old spirituality" like "good old religions" did not end ever in my view.  It is still very much active today all over the world. The Jews continue in the law and the pagan continues in his law or conscience, not to mention Christians who claiming grace do take on the law to judge and to act as people of the law and do remedy with hate when they see the need. Same old, same old active today. People don't sacrifice their children today( all religions), they have evoluted to only sacrificing the children of their enemies. The world remains for many one big Cannaan Land to possess  and the way to occupy it is no different than way back when.


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> The law did not end in my view. "Good old spirituality" like "good old religions" did not end ever in my view.  It is still very much active today all over the world. The Jews continue in the law and the pagan continues in his law or conscious, not to mention Christians who claiming grace do take on the law to judge and to act as people of the law and do remedy with hate when they see the need. Same old, same old active today. People don't sacrifice their children today( all religions), they have evoluted to only sacrificing the children of their enemies.




 Then Christ accomplished nothing??


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Then Christ accomplished nothing??



Why do you ask me such questions when you know the answer I would give you? What prompts you to ask such a question from what I wrote?

The law still exists which is the motive of works today and grace exists which is the motive of works today. Even a pagan would agree that Jesus accomplished some things. ? Despite Jesus, "The world remains for many one big Cannaan Land to possess and the way to occupy it is no different than way back when."


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Why do you ask me such questions when you know the answer I would give you? What prompts you to ask such a question from what I wrote?
> 
> The law still exists which is the motive of works today and grace exists which is the motive of works today. Even a pagan would agree that Jesus accomplished some things. ? Despite Jesus, "The world remains for many one big Cannaan Land to possess and the way to occupy it is no different than way back when."



The law is fulfilled in Christ..you say everything is the same now as before..how can I not then wonder, what is it that Gordon may think Christ did?

You have said the destruction of Jerusalem was " no big deal". Yet, it's one of the greatest proofs to non believers that Christ was who He said He was, and His prophecy of the Temple being destroyed in that generation came true. It is fulfilled just as He said.

What's just as important is the destruction put an end to the old covenant, Never again a Temple, Never again a special race, Never again animal sacrifices, it goes on and on. The Jewish people that survived..a fraction of those that were killed, had to create a new religion..Judaism as we know it today, was created after the destruction...but no big deal to some.

 Everything in scripture is a big deal to me, it's a story of how eternal life has been gifted to me.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> The law is fulfilled in Christ..you say everything is the same now as before..how can I not then wonder, what is it that Gordon may think Christ did?
> 
> You have said the destruction of Jerusalem was " no big deal". Yet, it's one of the greatest proofs to non believers that Christ was who He said He was, and His prophecy of the Temple being destroyed in that generation came true. It is fulfilled just as He said.
> 
> What's just as important is the destruction put an end to the old covenant, Never again a Temple, Never again a special race, Never again animal sacrifices, it goes on and on. The Jewish people that survived..a fraction of those that were killed, had to create a new religion..Judaism as we know it today, was created after the destruction...but no big deal to some.
> 
> Everything in scripture is a big deal to me, it's a story of how eternal life has been gifted to me.



 Quote[You have said the destruction of Jerusalem was " no big deal". Yet, it's one of the greatest proofs to non believers that Christ was who He said He was, and His prophecy of the Temple being destroyed in that generation came true. It is fulfilled just as He said.] End Quote.

Why would the destruction of the temple be a proof of anything, except that nicely fashioned stonework ( which was the subject of someone's observation) since the beginning of time does not stay nicely forever! 


" Charge those who are rich in this world that they be not haughty, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;"

Temples, churches, shrines, still get torched today... as they got torched in the past and will no doubt continue for centuries to come. Should you spiritualize what I have just said about them?


----------



## Israel

A man once told me, as he sought to withhold a thing I had been told was now to be had, "we can hold you in this jail as long as we like".

A thing spoke to the thing saying that, "you can hold me no longer than the Lord's coming".

Enraged, he slammed down the window between us, though there was a heavy screen already there.
I witnessed this between two things.

But, not only me, but all those who have loved His appearing.


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Why would the destruction of the temple be a proof of anything, except that nicely fashioned stonework ( which was the subject of someone's observation) since the beginning of time does not stay nicely forever!



If for no other reason it demonstrates Jesus' perfect prophecy that was fulfilled in that generation just as He said.

24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.



> Temples, churches, shrines, still get torched today... as they got torched in the past and will no doubt continue for centuries to come. Should you spiritualize what I have just said about them?



This particular Temple was no ordinary temple. It was where heaven and earth met, where a priest if clean could offer a sacrifice for the temporary remission of sins. Where in the Holiest place God resided.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> If for no other reason it demonstrates Jesus' perfect prophecy that was fulfilled in that generation just as He said.
> 
> 24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
> 
> 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
> 
> 
> 
> This particular Temple was no ordinary temple. It was where heaven and earth met, where a priest if clean could offer a sacrifice for the temporary remission of sins. Where in the Holiest place God resided.



Yes... no ordinary temple, but according to the jews I have talked to the sacrifices did not end in the lands they were exiled to. So that very special Temple was not required for sacrifice or the remission of sins. Other temples qualified also. The habits of the temple were perhaps more worldly than spiritual confusing the mortar of stones to what cleaves man to God?


 ""Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."

I have to wonder if Jesus is not still thinking these words, that are His, today regards Christians? Perhaps in lieu of temple stones, this time temple doctrines from prophets falsely called who's mortars are life times of study, not unlike the habits of old?


"38nor does His word abide in you, because you do not believe the One He sent. 39You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me, 40yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.…"

I wonder if the above still applies in some fashion. Not so much as to possess eternal life, but to divine it's futures as some still focusing on temple stones, in lieu of the advise " come to Me".


----------



## hobbs27

We stopped offering sacrifices because we do not have a proper place to offer them. The Torah specifically commands us not to offer sacrifices wherever we feel like it; we are only permitted to offer sacrifices in the place that G-d has chosen for that purpose. Deut. 12:13-14. It would be a sin to offer sacrifices in any other place, akin to stealing candles and wine to observe Shabbat. 


http://www.jewfaq.org/m/qorbanot.htm


----------



## centerpin fan

I'm old enough to remember when this thread was about "once saved, always saved".


----------



## gordon 2

Family bonds over mortar, bricks and politics are still strong today perhaps...?


----------



## gordon 2

centerpin fan said:


> I'm old enough to remember when this thread was about "once saved, always saved".



Your right. I've shaved at least twice since the last encounter with the subject.


However, I think it was made clear that OSAS is the outcome of one's take on predestination. So... I'm kind of loss for words on the subject. Ideas? OSAS is either a perfect ball of wool or a mess some cat tangled with... Ideas? Come to think of it the effect of wrath, the worldly,  seems to me like a wool ball some cat played with. It's near impossible to coil it back barring a miracle. Perhaps. But that's another topic.


----------



## Israel

The cutting short of days is a wonderful gift.


----------



## gordon 2

Israel said:


> The cutting short of days is a wonderful gift.



Yes I suppose if it supposes that the gathering of our daily bread is a chore.


----------



## Israel

The one who gives the bread has ordained the cutting short of days to his fitting end, but not without explanation.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


----------



## centerpin fan




----------



## hobbs27

Israel said:


> The one who gives the bread has ordained the cutting short of days to his fitting end, but not without explanation.
> 
> And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.



And that verse is key. The key to understanding the seemingly double talk of Paul. 

There was an elect,  they were the remnant out of Israel, and Just as the plan of salvation..Christ slain from the foundation of the world, so too were these people's destiny pre ordained. 

Once they had received the Kingdom ( Hebrews 12:28) in its fullness that was promised by the prophet Daniel in( Daniel 7:18) they were the first fruits of the New Covenant gift of eternal life.

From that moment on they stood as a testimony of Christ and pled to the lost world outside the Kingdom in which they received. Come! Take of the water of life freely given...to whosoever will.

So that's the answer, yes there was a group of elect and yes there is a group that took that step to recieve the water of life..you and I have both had to step out and meet the call.

Commentary: 
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(22) Should no flesh be saved.â€”The words are of course limited by the context to the scene of the events to which the prophecy refers. The warfare with foes outside the city, and the faction-fights and massacres within, would have caused an utter depopulation of the whole country.
For the electâ€™s sake.â€”Those who, as believers in Jesus, were the â€œremnantâ€� of the visible Israel, and therefore the true Israel of God. It was for the sake of the Christians of Judæa, not for that of the rebellious Jews, that the war was not protracted, and that Titus, under the outward influences of Josephus and Bernice, tempered his conquests with compassion (Ant. xii. 3, § 2; Wars, vi. 9, § 2). The new prominence which the idea of an election gains in our Lordâ€™s later teaching is every way remarkable. (Comp. Matthew 18:7; Matthew 20:6). The â€œcallâ€� had been wide; in those who received and obeyed it He taught men to recognise the â€œelectâ€� whom God had chosen. Subtle questions as to whether the choice rested on foreknowledge or was absolutely arbitrary lay, if we may reverently so speak, outside the scope of His teaching.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> And that verse is key. The key to understanding the seemingly double talk of Paul.
> 
> There was an elect,  they were the remnant out of Israel, and Just as the plan of salvation..Christ slain from the foundation of the world, so too were these people's destiny pre ordained.
> 
> Once they had received the Kingdom ( Hebrews 12:28) in its fullness that was promised by the prophet Daniel in( Daniel 7:18) they were the first fruits of the New Covenant gift of eternal life.
> 
> From that moment on they stood as a testimony of Christ and pled to the lost world outside the Kingdom in which they received. Come! Take of the water of life freely given...to whosoever will.
> 
> So that's the answer, yes there was a group of elect and yes there is a group that took that step to recieve the water of life..you and I have both had to step out and meet the call.
> 
> Commentary:
> Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
> (22) Should no flesh be saved.â€”The words are of course limited by the context to the scene of the events to which the prophecy refers. The warfare with foes outside the city, and the faction-fights and massacres within, would have caused an utter depopulation of the whole country.
> For the electâ€™s sake.â€”Those who, as believers in Jesus, were the â€œremnantâ€� of the visible Israel, and therefore the true Israel of God. It was for the sake of the Christians of Judæa, not for that of the rebellious Jews, that the war was not protracted, and that Titus, under the outward influences of Josephus and Bernice, tempered his conquests with compassion (Ant. xii. 3, § 2; Wars, vi. 9, § 2). The new prominence which the idea of an election gains in our Lordâ€™s later teaching is every way remarkable. (Comp. Matthew 18:7; Matthew 20:6). The â€œcallâ€� had been wide; in those who received and obeyed it He taught men to recognise the â€œelectâ€� whom God had chosen. Subtle questions as to whether the choice rested on foreknowledge or was absolutely arbitrary lay, if we may reverently so speak, outside the scope of His teaching.



It is my understanding that the Christians were not in the city when it was sacked. They ( many) had left the capitol and Judea  long before due  to the persecutions of Christians, (  as the guy that baptised Paul was perhaps one of these exiles) and for the knowledge that being in a sieged city where you have no dogs in the fight is not a good idea,  although some returned after  it was spoiled by the Romans.

 And Isreal doggonit, if ever we are on mine clearing detail, one of us is staying back to peal potatoes! 

Anywho, days cut short might apply to another time... like the second coming perhaps when the osas, the freewillers, the preterists, the oneness believers, the trinitarians and everyone else get judged for their works and the temper of their hearts?


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> It is my understanding that the Christians were not in the city when it was sacked. They ( many) had left the capitol and Judea  long before due  to the persecutions of Christians, (  as the guy that baptised Paul was perhaps one of these exiles) and for the knowledge that being in a sieged city where you have no dogs in the fight is not a good idea,  although some returned after  it was spoiled by the Romans.
> 
> And Isreal doggonit, if ever we are on mine clearing detail, one of us is staying back to peal potatoes!
> 
> Anywho, days cut short might apply to another time... like the second coming perhaps when the osas, the freewillers, the preterists and everyone else get judged for their works and the temper of their hearts?



Actually they had left, but not for the persecutions. Remember they were still preaching trying to save ever last Jew out of the coming end. They left because the signs Christ gave them in Matt. 24 were seen by them.
 Those in Judea fled for the hills.


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Actually they had left, but not for the persecutions. Remember they were still preaching trying to save ever last Jew out of the coming end. They left because the signs Christ gave them in Matt. 24 were seen by them.
> Those in Judea fled for the hills.



Steven's stoning would have been a good enough sign for me by instinct, (and minus Matt.24 that was most likely unknown to me), to head over the hills for Syria to take the  first boat to Greece. No?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Here is what I don't understand. If only the Remnant were of the elect, why did the Christians wait around in Jerusalem trying to save the others?

If the Remnant shows election and predestination, why did election and predestination end?

Romans 11:5-6
 5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.  6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

When did the way God saves change?


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Steven's stoning would have been a good enough sign for me by instinct, (and minus Matt.24 that was most likely unknown to me), to head over the hills for Syria to take the  first boat to Greece. No?



Paul aka Saul was at the stoning of Stephen. He was batting for the other team as an apostate Jew. We know they stayed around long after that teaching in the synagogues and bringing Gentiles in with them.

Paul was a very useful vessel to God, for he was a Jew of the Pharisee sect. And a Roman citizen. His citizenship afforded him extra protection.

Just a small point also..there were Jewish synagogues in most of the Lands around. Christians could not run far enough away to escape the persecution. It's a good thing that the Gentiles surrounded the city at Pentecost. Jew's had come from many nations to be in Jerusalem at that time.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Here is what I don't understand. If only the Remnant were of the elect, why did the Christians wait around in Jerusalem trying to save the others?
> 
> If the Remnant shows election and predestination, why did election and predestination end?
> 
> Romans 11:5-6
> 5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.  6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
> 
> When did the way God saves change?



Faith. Faith to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Faith to leave the comforts of majority and join the persecuted minority. It was by faith they were saved. It was pre ordained that they would.


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Paul aka Saul was at the stoning of Stephen. He was batting for the other team as an apostate Jew. We know they stayed around long after that teaching in the synagogues and bringing Gentiles in with them.
> 
> Paul was a very useful vessel to God, for he was a Jew of the Pharisee sect. And a Roman citizen. His citizenship afforded him extra protection.
> 
> Just a small point also..there were Jewish synagogues in most of the Lands around. Christians could not run far enough away to escape the persecution. It's a good thing that the Gentiles surrounded the city at Pentecost. Jew's had come from many nations to be in Jerusalem at that time.



Well all I can say I suppose is we ain't watching the same movie  although it got the same name. And that's fine. It is not a deal breaker. My understanding of the resurrection of the dead at the last judgement is just that, the resurrection of the physically dead. And I understand that resurrection of the dead can also mean the regeneration of people in that they are intimate with God.

This is one of my nut shells I got going with my Lord: 


 1 Samuel 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

And J Seph if you are still reading this and still have questions on anything regards faith and answers on somethings please continue to ask and participate. Often new eyes are a great contribution to everyone's faith, old eyes can suffer from hardening of the arteries and other nasty conditions that dim the spirit.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Here is what I don't understand. If only the Remnant were of the elect, why did the Christians wait around in Jerusalem trying to save the others?
> 
> If the Remnant shows election and predestination, why did election and predestination end?
> 
> Romans 11:5-6
> 5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.  6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
> 
> When did the way God saves change?



Roman's 11:
 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day." 9 And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; 10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever."

Romans 9:6  
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;


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## hobbs27

God always saved a remnant from destruction. Be it the great flood, or Sodom and Gommorah..The destruction of the Temple was yet another day of the Lord, and a remnant was saved out of it.


“But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people that you may proclaim His praises..”; “(because) whom He foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son..”; “(so that) that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus..”; “..and through us diffuse the fragrance of His knowledge in every place..” (Rom 8:29-30, 2 Cor 2:14, Eph 2:7, 1 Pet 2:9; cf, Ex 19:6, Rev 1:6, 5:10).


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Roman's 11:
> 
> 
> Romans 9:6
> But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;



This group in Romans 9, they aren't chosen? I guess the Remnant(Elect) is just a part of this group.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> This group in Romans 9, they aren't chosen? I guess the Remnant(Elect) is just a part of this group.



Yes!! Just like Noah and his family..Lot and his family.

 Remember how Lots family was saved but...they were to never look back,  yet his wife looked?

 This is why Paul was stressing to them about how important it was for them to be pure as a virgin, or to be soo good. They had to endure to their own death or till Christ appearing.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> God always saved a remnant from destruction. Be it the great flood, or Sodom and Gommorah..The destruction of the Temple was yet another day of the Lord, and a remnant was saved out of it.
> 
> 
> “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people that you may proclaim His praises..”; “(because) whom He foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son..”; “(so that) that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus..”; “..and through us diffuse the fragrance of His knowledge in every place..” (Rom 8:29-30, 2 Cor 2:14, Eph 2:7, 1 Pet 2:9; cf, Ex 19:6, Rev 1:6, 5:10).



So now that all of the destruction is over, God doesn't need to elect a remnant anymore. 

I wonder why the remnants are always elected by grace and not works? Wait, wasn't the flood remnant chosen for their works?

Anyway, now that God is through destructing, he no longer needs to control who he chooses by grace, he let's us choose him instead of the other way around like he use to do it.

It just sounds like you are searching for a way to justify "election." A system that was needed in time to make God's plan come about but now that it has, election is no longer needed. 

Does hardening and blinding work the same way? Now that it is finished, God no longer needs to harden?

Romans 9:17-18
For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Romans 11:7-8
What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

God no longer needs to choose and elect to make his plan come about because his plan has already came about?


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## hobbs27

Art, Noah found grace in the eyes of God.

Faith ties us to the Kingdom of God. When our faith meets God's grace, we become children of God..Thats the New Covenant, and the only covenant to offer eternal life..and it's an everlasting covenant.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Yes!! Just like Noah and his family..Lot and his family.
> 
> Remember how Lots family was saved but...they were to never look back,  yet his wife looked?
> 
> This is why Paul was stressing to them about how important it was for them to be pure as a virgin, or to be soo good. They had to endure to their own death or till Christ appearing.



Romans 9:6
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Many Christians see the same verses you see as election too but that God still elects.  I guess because they see a future destruction. 

I'm still a bit confused, besides the Remnant out of Israel being elected by grace and not works, who else was elected before 70AD by grace and not works?

The Remnant was elected out of Israel and the rest of Israel was hardened so that the Gentiles could be grafted in.
Were these Gentiles that were grafted in elected or did they use free will to gain salvation? I can't see why God would elect a Remnant using grace, harden the rest of Israel, and then let Gentiles receive salvation based on free will. I mean his plan was not fulfilled at this time. You said the ones in Romans 9:6 were also elected so can I assume all souls were elected before 70AD and the rest were hardened before 70AD?

Another way to address it is, if God elected and hardened Jews to make his plan come about, wouldn't he do the same thing to Gentiles? Otherwise they might use their free will to mess up the whole plan. Maybe by not killing Jesus or not destroying Jerusalem.


----------



## Artfuldodger

If people were elected by grace and not works then I would assume they received eternal election and eternal salvation(OSAS).

If a remnant of Jews were elected by grace and not works then I would have to assume every person receiving salvation before 70AD would also have to be by grace and not works.
I think Romans 9:6 tells us this.

What I don't understand is how or why eternal election morphed into eternal salvation(OSAS) at 70AD. If all was finished then perhaps so. Why would God need to continue with eternal election? His plan was finished. 

Still though it would appear that if eternal election was over then so would eternal salvation. They tend to go hand in hand.

Now with God's plan finished, the book was finished too. The movie version has also been written and finished. We pick up the book and we read how the author made everything happen using election and hardening. Now that it is finished, the writer doesn't control the sequel. No more election and hardening. No more eternal salvation. No more un-grafting, grafting in, grafting out, and re-grafting now that the story is over.
Is this possible?


----------



## hobbs27

Art, all that aside. When one is created in the family of God they are always in the family.

Adam was still a child of God, even though he was chastised and cursed. We,  once having the Spirit breathe life into us, have eternal life. It's then up to us,  to embrace God and live a happy life or rebel and face many chastisements.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Art, all that aside. When one is created in the family of God they are always in the family.
> 
> Adam was still a child of God, even though he was chastised and cursed. We,  once having the Spirit breathe life into us, have eternal life. It's then up to us,  to embrace God and live a happy life or rebel and face many chastisements.



I thought you didn't believe that we today are regenerated by the Holy Spirit(born again)?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I thought you didn't believe that we today are regenerated by the Holy Spirit(born again)?



Re...means to do over..right?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Re...means to do over..right?



Born of water...and of the Spirit.

Re-born


----------



## Atlanta Dawg

It seems to me that if a person gets saved.  Then....they go do something heinous.......they have breached whatever commitment was made....like they do a robbery, a mugging, maim someone, cheat someone, that sort of stuff....sort of like going to confession and then carrying on as before......


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Born of water...and of the Spirit.
> 
> Re-born



When God breathed into Adams nostrils, was Adam born...or born again?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> When God breathed into Adams nostrils, was Adam born...or born again?



All people have the breath of life in them.
Being born of the Spirit is something entirely different, and not all people experience it.Only those that are ordained to eternal life.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> All people have the breath of life in them.
> Being born of the Spirit is something entirely different, and not all people experience it.Only those that are ordained to eternal life.




Since being born of spirit is entirely different...can one be born of spirit twice? Or born again?

 If one is born of flesh then later born of something entirely different..could that then be being born again?

 I think Nicodemus knew very well that one could not be born twice physically, but used that analogy to explain the spiritual.

 See those Jews were physically children of God by bloodline. They were physically born into the physical ( Israel) kingdom of God, and physically circumcised.

 But to enter into the spiritual kingdom of God they had to set their bloodline aside and enter by faith..they had to be born again into the kingdom of God, by faith, and by circumcision of the heart.

 We are not born into a physical kingdom of God, we are as Adam was. Therefore God created us into His Kingdom when we answered the beckoning of the Spirit. Us being whosoever will. Born or made alive spiritually once...not regenerated, or born again. Generated and birthed once.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Nicodemus' question was the natural response one would expect after telling a person he had to be born the second time.

If the first birth was physical which is followed by everlasting death of the body and soul, wouldn't one need another birth to take on a spiritual life which is everlasting life?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> See those Jews were physically children of God by bloodline. They were physically born into the physical ( Israel) kingdom of God, and physically circumcised.
> 
> But to enter into the spiritual kingdom of God they had to set their bloodline aside and enter by faith..they had to be born again into the kingdom of God, by faith, and by circumcision of the heart.
> 
> We are not born into a physical kingdom of God, we are as Adam was. Therefore God created us into His Kingdom when we answered the beckoning of the Spirit. Us being whosoever will. Born or made alive spiritually once...not regenerated, or born again. Generated and birthed once.



Those Jews were physically children of God. God has physical children and a different group that are spiritual children? That could explain a lot about different kinds of salvation.

Did the Remnant(Elect)  answer the beckoning call of the Spirit or were they just physical children as well?

Can we separate physical children from spiritual children? How do we know that Adam was a spiritual child instead of a physical child of God?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Since being born of spirit is entirely different...can one be born of spirit twice? Or born again?
> 
> If one is born of flesh then later born of something entirely different..could that then be being born again?
> 
> I think Nicodemus knew very well that one could not be born twice physically, but used that analogy to explain the spiritual.



Jesus is the one that is explaining that you must be born twice---once by your mother,and once by the Spirit.It's just that simple.Two births.A birth takes place,then a birth takes place AGAIN.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Nicodemus' question was the natural response one would expect after telling a person he had to be born the second time.
> 
> If the first birth was physical which is followed by everlasting death of the body and soul, wouldn't one need another birth to take on a spiritual life which is everlasting life?




Was it the natural response of a well studied Pharisee, that believed in an after life?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Jesus is the one that is explaining that you must be born twice---once by your mother,and once by the Spirit.It's just that simple.Two births.A birth takes place,then a birth takes place AGAIN.


Jesus doesn't say you or I need to be born again. He tells Nicodemus a Jew, that he needed to be born again.


----------



## Big7

rjcruiser said:


> I wonder if I can un-elect myself.



I axed Reformedpastor and his wife, Banjo a while back
(remember them?).........

If I wanted to "convert" to one of those that believe in
"elect", could I?

They both told me no..

Basically saying if you were not born elect,
you had a pass to the hot place.

How stupid is that?

Why try to do good if you just going to the hot place anyway, if you are not one of the "elect"?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Was it the natural response of a well studied Pharisee, that believed in an after life?



The Jew did have a lot of rebirths. Maybe Nicodemus had had so many he was wondering if he'd have to start over. I'm sure he knew the term.

But at that time he wasn't born of the Spirit. I don't have a problem with the term "born again." It's the same as rebirth.

Rebirth, second birth, same thing. One comes later than the first.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus doesn't say you or I need to be born again. He tells Nicodemus a Jew, that he needed to be born again.



Vs.8...."so is EVERY one that is born of the Spirit."


----------



## welderguy

Big7 said:


> I axed Reformedpastor and his wife, Banjo a while back
> (remember them?).........
> 
> If I wanted to "convert" to one of those that believe in
> "elect", could I?
> 
> They both told me no..
> 
> Basically saying if you were not born elect,
> you had a pass to the hot place.
> 
> How stupid is that?
> 
> Why try to do good if you just going to the hot place anyway, if you are not one of the "elect"?



If you love God,it's because He first loved you(you are elect).And if you love Him you will want to obey Him.Why?

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


----------



## Big7

welderguy said:


> If you love God,it's because He first loved you(you are elect).And if you love Him you will want to obey Him.Why?
> 
> Philippians 2:13
> For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.



Well, the way I got it from the Presbyterian folks,
not just the ones I mentioned, was you either are or not.
No matter what you do or don't do.
Another sho' nuff' Baptist told me when asked:
"Since you are "saved", if you go back to all the "bad stuff"
you used to do, are you still going to Heaven"?
He did not hesitate one second and told me flat out "yes".
How stupid is that?

My particular Christian Church (happens to be the original) teaches that God
gave you a set of instructions, a brain and free will.

The rest is up to you.


----------



## welderguy

Big7 said:


> Well, the way I got it from the Presbyterian folks,
> not just the ones I mentioned, was you either are or not.
> No matter what you do or don't do.
> Another sho' nuff' Baptist told me when asked:
> "Since you are "saved", if you go back to all the "bad stuff"
> you used to do, are you still going to Heaven"?
> He did not hesitate one second and told me flat out "yes".
> How stupid is that?
> 
> My particular Christian Church (happens to be the original) teaches that God
> gave you a set of instructions, a brain and free will.
> 
> The rest is up to you.



If its up to man to work his way to heaven,there will be none there.
Its ALL by grace.
We do have instructions as to how to conduct ourselves in this present life.Our new heart loves those instructions but our old one still wars against them.
We must crucify the old heart daily.When we feed the old heart and its lusts,God chastens us as a father chastens his son.He does this because He loves us.Its for our sanctification.


----------



## j_seph

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus doesn't say you or I need to be born again. He tells Nicodemus a Jew, that he needed to be born again.


1 Peter 1:19-23

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, _see that ye_ love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 _*Being born again*_, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Why does born again show up here?


----------



## gordon 2

j_seph said:


> 1 Peter 1:19-23
> 
> 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
> 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
> 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
> 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, _see that ye_ love one another with a pure heart fervently:
> 23 _*Being born again*_, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
> 
> Why does born again show up here?



Good point!


----------



## hobbs27

j_seph said:


> 1 Peter 1:19-23
> 
> 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
> 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
> 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
> 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, _see that ye_ love one another with a pure heart fervently:
> 23 _*Being born again*_, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
> 
> Why does born again show up here?



Good question.

 Since these people were the first fruits of the resurrection awaiting the adoption or the redemption of their body ( singular) to the body of Christ

.Romans 8:23 
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

And they were in the last days of the old covenant. 1Peter 1:20 when the resurrection would happen.

And the Two covenants were still binding, with the old dying and fading away Hebrews 8:13

 They were together born of the old corruptible seed ( old covenant) and being born again of the incorruptible spiritual new covenant.

 They were about to be resurrected and joined together in the body of Christ with the dead and the sleeping in Christ.

Ezekiel 36: 26-28
 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Having been begotten again. Becoming a new creation. Born again. From above. 

Doesn't it all mean the same thing in relation to regeneration. It isn't generation but regeneration.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Having been begotten again. Becoming a new creation. Born again. From above.
> 
> Doesn't it all mean the same thing in relation to regeneration. It isn't generation but regeneration.



Yes.They all describe the same concept.
Regeneration is the washing we receive.

Titus 3:5
 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

Hobbs will try to tell us that regeneration(being born again) is only for 1st century Jews.But it is the means whereby ALL God's children are washed,Jew and Gentile alike.

1 Cor.6:11

" And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

These Corinthians were gentile.


----------



## hummerpoo

welderguy said:


> Titus 3:5
> "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"



Gal. 2:
3.  But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. 

God is not a bigot, as dispensational interpretations make Him.  Dispensations only serve to justify judgement of people groups and enhance the self-image of the interpreter/judge; they are without excuse (Rm. 2:1).


----------



## welderguy

hummerpoo said:


> Gal. 2:
> 3.  But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek.
> 
> God is not a bigot, as dispensational interpretations make Him.  Dispensations only serve to justify judgement of people groups and enhance the self-image of the interpreter/judge; they are without excuse (Rm. 2:1).



I agree.
They cannot see afar off.


----------



## RH Clark

If you are truly born again it can't be lost. When a person is saved they have a new heart. They have become a new person and one with Christ. Salvation isn't based on what you do, though those who have Christ's nature will want to please him.

Where men have been mislead is in understanding what salvation means. Salvation is more than repeating a prayer one time in church when you were feeling guilty. I like to say that salvation is mostly about surrender. God gives us free will to do whatever we want. Salvation is giving up that free will and giving it back to God, making him your master.

Once salvation occurs it cannot be lost. The big question though is did salvation occur, or were you just looking for an insurance policy.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I agree.
> They cannot see afar off.



http://planetpreterist.com/content/eschatology-being-“born-again”


----------



## furtaker

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
> Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men.10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.



"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption."  1 Corinthians 15:50

Those are sins of the flesh.  Every believer has 2 natures:  the old and the new, the flesh and the spirit.

It is impossible for the new man to sin:

"Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."  1 John 3:9

The word or concept of "practice" is not even in the verse.  Lordship salvation theologians put it in there because it fits their ideology.  The verse says the the new man cannot commit sin.  That includes one single act. 

The flesh will commit sin until the day we die.  Hence it cannot inherit the kingdom.

The new man cannot commit one single act of sin (1 John 3:9) because it is the very life of God Himself.  That is the one that inherits the kingdom.

Let's be honest.  If everybody who commits the acts in 1 Corinthians 15:50 cannot inherit the kingdom, then who is going to make it?  Who is sinless among us?  Who hasn't committed those sins?  All of us are so quick to point the finger at someone else.

I'm not condoning sin in any way as there are consequences to sin in the believers life.  But the consequence can never be Hades.  Jesus guarantees that the believer has everlasting life at the moment of faith.


----------



## groundhawg

Artfuldodger said:


> John 3:16, God doesn't make mistakes.



True, but humans do, often.  Once saved, always save - nope!


----------



## hobbs27

groundhawg said:


> True, but humans do, often.  Once saved, always save - nope!



Seriously..once a person is saved they are no longer allowed to make a mistake?  How do we then define grace?


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Seriously..once a person is saved they are no longer allowed to make a mistake?  How do we then define grace?



When is sin just a mistake?


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> When is sin just a mistake?



I'm just following the suggestion made.

I don't know how one can sin without law.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> I'm just following the suggestion made.
> 
> I don't know how one can sin without law.



Oh.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I'm just following the suggestion made.
> 
> I don't know how one can sin without law.



We still sin.Its just not laid to our charge.That's grace.

1 John 1:8-9

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> We still sin.Its just not laid to our charge.That's grace.
> 
> 1 John 1:8-9
> 
> 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
> 
> 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.




Yes,  that's what I say. Imputed sin is no more.


----------



## hobbs27

Well..http://babylonbee.com/news/local-arminian-loses-salvation-high-stakes-poker-game/


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Well..http://babylonbee.com/news/local-arminian-loses-salvation-high-stakes-poker-game/



That poker player can still make it to Heaven by buying salvation insurance;


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> That poker player can still make it to Heaven by buying salvation insurance;>



? haha.


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Well..http://babylonbee.com/news/local-arminian-loses-salvation-high-stakes-poker-game/



You never bet your eternal salvation on a pair of kings.  I wouldn't even go there unless I had at least three of a kind.


----------



## Israel

hummerpoo said:


> Gal. 2:
> 3.  But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek.
> 
> God is not a bigot, as dispensational interpretations make Him.  Dispensations only serve to justify judgement of people groups and enhance the self-image of the interpreter/judge; they are without excuse (Rm. 2:1).



yes.
A thing that until revealed, looks like God to us.


----------



## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> You never bet your eternal salvation on a pair of kings.  I wouldn't even go there unless I had at least three of a kind.



That's good self control at the poker table.


----------



## gordon 2

centerpin fan said:


> You never bet your eternal salvation on a pair of kings.  I wouldn't even go there unless I had at least three of a kind.



Someone should copy this and frame it. They are two very well formed sentences in structure and with one great meaning... They could season many things literary... and more...


----------



## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> yes.
> A thing that until revealed, looks like God to us.



All of God's People pray that the promised time of seeing clearly is near.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Colossians 2:11
In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ,


----------



## speedcop

I believe that if you acknowledge that Christ died for your sin debt, and rose from the grave to show dominion over hades and death with all your heart and repent with the mouth your sins you have been added as one of God's children. I also believe that God tells us no one can take us away from the love of God except blasphemy, which to my understanding of the word is to "deny Christ". We all will continue to sin till death because we are sinfull in nature. But Christ's sacrifice on the cross and the GIFT of grace from God he remembers our sins no more.

However, even though we have a relationship with God, which is our salvation we can loose our "fellowship" with God because of our sin and actions. God will turn his ear away from us if we jeapordize  the fellowship. So, my firm belief is yes you can loose that salvation by denying Christ, and we can loose our fellowship by premeditated or purposely sining. The great thing about God, he takes repeat offenders.


----------



## j_seph

speedcop said:


> I believe that if you acknowledge that Christ died for your sin debt, and rose from the grave to show dominion over hades and death with all your heart and repent with the mouth your sins you have been added as one of God's children. I also believe that God tells us no one can take us away from the love of God except blasphemy, which to my understanding of the word is to "deny Christ". We all will continue to sin till death because we are sinfull in nature. But Christ's sacrifice on the cross and the GIFT of grace from God he remembers our sins no more.
> 
> However, even though we have a relationship with God, which is our salvation we can loose our "fellowship" with God because of our sin and actions. God will turn his ear away from us if we jeapordize  the fellowship. So, my firm belief is yes you can loose that salvation by denying Christ, and we can loose our fellowship by premeditated or purposely sining. The great thing about God, he takes repeat offenders.


 well said, he never leaves us yet we try to walk away from him at times and he is still right there. We have a guy in our church who fell on rough times. He was called to preach before those times in his life hit. He would put his bible away in the basement so that it was not an easy task to just pick it up. The Lord would deal with him so much that he would have to go dig it out and see what he was being told just to be able to go to sleep. He even carried it and gave it to a guy he worked with to try and get rid of Gods word. Yup Christ was right there with him the whole time and here was having to go to the guys house to get his bible to get back in the word. Conviction, that is what will keep us from the same sin over and over. Our reminder that he is with us always and forever if we accepted him. Without him we do not have the conviction and I would take that 3 of a kind over a pair of kings anyday, The Father The Son and The holy Spirit.


----------



## spwatz

OSAS is not a teaching in scripture, it is a false teaching of man.

I Cor 15:1-2 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain

If you understand the meaning of the word "if" then you can understand a conditional statement.  So what is the conditional statement of this verse? How it is possible to have received the word, stand in the word, being saved in the word and yet believed in vain?  You have to hold fast otherwise, you believed in vain.

Isn't the obvious conclusion of this passage is that salvation is a condition of holding fast to the word, otherwise, if you don't hold fast to the word, you have believed in vain and you are no longer being saved?

The bible is full of conditional statements. Also, there is a requirement of obedience such as is found in Heb 5:9, "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him."  What about those who stop obeying him?

Also Jn 3:16 says "should" not "will".  You should not go out in the rain without an umbrella.  Doesn't mean you can't.  No one can pluck you from his hand, but doesn't mean you can't walk away.

I Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

What if we don't?  If He still forgives us our sins without a confession, this verse is meaningless.

2 Pet 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

You have to have help to mis-understand these verses.

IF OSAS were actually true, it could NEVER be true that it would have been better to have never known the way of righteousness.  

Jas 5: 19-20, My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

A brother that wanders off is called a sinner that is bound for death, not physical death cause nobody can escape that but as James has already described the death that results from sin is a spiritual death (Jas 1:15).

Heb 6:4-9 certainly describes a falling away.

Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

You cannot fall away from a place you have never been.  You cannot be severed from that which you were never connected.

So, you can be severed from Christ and fall from grace or else this warning is meaningless and false.

I could go on, but I won't.  The mental gymnastics required to "explain away" the clear teaching of scripture is not something I want to be a part of.


----------



## j_seph

spwatz said:


> OSAS is not a teaching in scripture, it is a false teaching of man.
> 
> I Cor 15:1-2 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain
> *1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;*
> *2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.*
> 
> 
> If you understand the meaning of the word "if" then you can understand a conditional statement.  So what is the conditional statement of this verse? How it is possible to have received the word, stand in the word, being saved in the word and yet believed in vain?  You have to hold fast otherwise, you believed in vain.
> 
> Isn't the obvious conclusion of this passage is that salvation is a condition of holding fast to the word, otherwise, if you don't hold fast to the word, you have believed in vain and you are no longer being saved?
> 
> The bible is full of conditional statements. Also, there is a requirement of obedience such as is found in Heb 5:9, "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him."  What about those who stop obeying him?
> 
> Also Jn 3:16 says "should" not "will".  You should not go out in the rain without an umbrella.  Doesn't mean you can't.  No one can pluck you from his hand, but doesn't mean you can't walk away.
> 
> I Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
> 
> What if we don't?  If He still forgives us our sins without a confession, this verse is meaningless.
> 
> 2 Pet 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
> *For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the  knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled  therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the  beginning.*
> 
> 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
> *For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.*
> 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
> *But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.*
> 
> You have to have help to mis-understand these verses.
> 
> IF OSAS were actually true, it could NEVER be true that it would have been better to have never known the way of righteousness.
> 
> Jas 5: 19-20, My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
> *19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;*
> *20 Let  him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way  shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.*
> 
> 
> A brother that wanders off is called a sinner that is bound for death, not physical death cause nobody can escape that but as James has already described the death that results from sin is a spiritual death (Jas 1:15).
> *James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.*
> 
> Heb 6:4-9 certainly describes a falling away.
> vs 4 says For it is impossible
> *vs 6 says If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame*.
> 
> Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
> 
> You cannot fall away from a place you have never been.  You cannot be severed from that which you were never connected.
> 
> So, you can be severed from Christ and fall from grace or else this warning is meaningless and false.
> 
> I could go on, but I won't.  The mental gymnastics required to "explain away" the clear teaching of scripture is not something I want to be a part of.


Read a little deerper about faith, not sure which bible you are using but I ask that you compare some with the KJV


----------



## spwatz

I know all about faith, trust me.  Faith is doing what God said.

Jas 2 tells us faith without works is dead and even the demons believe.

Heb 11 shows us that faith is doing what God said.  For example, Heb 11:30 - By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.

How did the walls fall down?  By faith.  What does that mean?  They received instruction, they obeyed those instructions and the walls fell.  How did they fall? They did what God said and they fell by faith.  

Noah received instructions and built an ark.  He did what God said.  He built the ark by faith according to Heb 11:7. 

Still, the bible is easy to understand on the topic of OSAS.  You can fall from grace, be severed from Christ (Which also agrees with Rom 11 about the branches being broken off), you can become entangled again and overcome, can err from the way and be headed toward death with a multitude of sins on his account and so on.

The bible is filled with conditional statements.

How many times does God have to say something for it to be true?

I Cor 15:1-2, Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Someone explain to me how someone that has received the gospel and is standing in the gospel and is being saved by the gospel, can believe in vain if OSAS were true.


----------



## Foxfire

*Osas*

OSAS is a Farce, no such thing.

www.wels.com

Ask questions.

Foxfire/Y2KZ71


----------



## welderguy

spwatz said:


> I know all about faith, trust me.  Faith is doing what God said.
> 
> Jas 2 tells us faith without works is dead and even the demons believe.
> 
> Heb 11 shows us that faith is doing what God said.  For example, Heb 11:30 - By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
> 
> How did the walls fall down?  By faith.  What does that mean?  They received instruction, they obeyed those instructions and the walls fell.  How did they fall? They did what God said and they fell by faith.
> 
> Noah received instructions and built an ark.  He did what God said.  He built the ark by faith according to Heb 11:7.
> 
> Still, the bible is easy to understand on the topic of OSAS.  You can fall from grace, be severed from Christ (Which also agrees with Rom 11 about the branches being broken off), you can become entangled again and overcome, can err from the way and be headed toward death with a multitude of sins on his account and so on.
> 
> The bible is filled with conditional statements.
> 
> How many times does God have to say something for it to be true?
> 
> I Cor 15:1-2, Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
> 
> Someone explain to me how someone that has received the gospel and is standing in the gospel and is being saved by the gospel, can believe in vain if OSAS were true.



The gospel is not the same thing as the Word(which is Jesus--"...in the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God,and the Word was God")

The Word is what saves eternally.
The gospel saves temporally(in this life)
Two different salvations.

When you study scripture,its very important to recognize the distinction between these two salvations.Otherwise,there will be confusion.


----------



## centerpin fan

j_seph said:


> Read a little deerper about faith, not sure which bible you are using but I ask that you compare some with the KJV



I don't think Bible version has anything to do with it.


----------



## hummerpoo

spwatz said:


> I know all about faith, trust me.  Faith is doing what God said.
> 
> Jas 2 tells us faith without works is dead and even the demons believe.
> 
> Heb 11 shows us that faith is doing what God said.  For example, Heb 11:30 - By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
> 
> How did the walls fall down?  By faith.  What does that mean?  They received instruction, they obeyed those instructions and the walls fell.  How did they fall? They did what God said and they fell by faith.
> 
> Noah received instructions and built an ark.  He did what God said.  He built the ark by faith according to Heb 11:7.
> 
> Still, the bible is easy to understand on the topic of OSAS.  You can fall from grace, be severed from Christ (Which also agrees with Rom 11 about the branches being broken off), you can become entangled again and overcome, can err from the way and be headed toward death with a multitude of sins on his account and so on.
> 
> The bible is filled with conditional statements.
> 
> How many times does God have to say something for it to be true?
> 
> I Cor 15:1-2, Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
> 
> Someone explain to me how someone that has received the gospel and is standing in the gospel and is being saved by the gospel, can believe in vain if OSAS were true.





> Someone explain to me how someone that has received the gospel and is standing in the gospel and is being saved by the gospel, can believe in vain if OSAS were true.





> Jas 2 tells us faith without works is dead and even the demons believe.



I appears to me that you have the answer.


----------



## j_seph

centerpin fan said:


> I don't think Bible version has anything to do with it.


Just one example
Luke 4:4:

KJV: "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."

NASV: "And Jesus answered him, “It is written, “MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE.”

Just saying, be careful that you are taught with Gods word
I Peter 1:23-25 “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the Word of the Lord endureth forever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”


----------



## centerpin fan

j_seph said:


> Just one example
> Luke 4:4:
> 
> KJV: "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."
> 
> NASV: "And Jesus answered him, “It is written, “MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE.”
> 
> Just saying, be careful that you are taught with Gods word
> I Peter 1:23-25 “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the Word of the Lord endureth forever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”



Various translations are obviously different, but no translation has changed my view on the subject.

I started out reading the KJV and have been reading it again for the last year ... and still don't believe in OSAS. 

Over the years, I've read the NIV, NASB, and NKJV ... and never believed in OSAS.


----------



## hummerpoo

Noting the forum rules, I'm not going to get into any "My favorite Bible" discussion, and probably wouldn't anyway.  But I will say that I don't think that comparing verse to verse even scratches the surface.

I read the post identified "05-20-2009, 11:04 AM" here
http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php/48546-NASB-vs-KJV
and I think the writer identifies the questions one need to consider when choosing a particular Bible translation for their particular purpose.  Probably the first is Byzantine or Alexandrian.

A couple of personal notes:
* Stay away from all Study Bibles, unless you use them as you would any other commentary (Some guys opinion).
*Have at least three regularly used Bibles of different translations.
*Cross-references and text notes are good.  My first pick up Bible has 95,000.
* I don't care for parapharses.


----------



## spwatz

Truth never contradicts itself.  It does not require mental gymnastic to try and explain it away.

Believed in vain means that the belief is worthless, even though at one time it was providing salvation, that salvation was conditional on continuing to stand according to I Cor 15.

It would have been better for some people to have never  known the way of righteousness and escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ according to 2 Pet 2.

Some people have been severed from Christ and fallen from grace according to Gal 5.  All spiritual blessings are in Christ according to Eph 1:3, so there are zero spiritual blessings outside of Christ.  There is only one way to get INTO Christ according to scripture for those that are willing to search it out.

I have studied this topic for years and cannot find one shred of evidence to support the notion that OSAS is true.  The bible has hundreds of passages that refute this idea and support the idea that we must continue on living for God, continue to confess our sins to him, to be obedient to His word and so on.

Actually, I have about given up on message boards like this because I find them to nearly be a complete waste of time.  People will not accept the simple truth but will defend error at all cost because that is what they have always believed or been taught or for other reasons.

People don't really want the truth, they want to be "right" in their own eyes.

I Cor 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Is this possible?  Did God give us a command we cannot keep?  For this to be possible, we can't depend on "I think" or "I feel", but we must base our judgments on what God said.  He doesn't contradict Himself.  If you find a scripture that contradicts another, then you don't have a proper understanding.  You must dig, be diligent, seek, and study.  God required that we diligently seek him (Heb 11:6).  If we disagree, one, or both, of us is wrong.

If we can't agree that OSAS is false based on plain scriptures such as Gal 5:4, 2 Pet 2:20-22, I Cor 15:1-2 or even Jas 5:19-20 then we have no chance of fulfilling the command in I Cor 1:10.

Y'all have a nice day.


----------



## spwatz

Oh, and I can use KJV, NKJV, NASB, ASV, ESV or even the NIV and still show that OSAS is false.    The conclusion is NOT version dependent.


----------



## hobbs27

spwatz said:


> Oh, and I can use KJV, NKJV, NASB, ASV, ESV or even the NIV and still show that OSAS is false.    The conclusion is NOT version dependent.



What's so eternal about the gift of eternal life if you have the power to lose it?


----------



## spwatz

Matt 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

When is eternal life or eternal punishment determined?  If someone is bound for eternal punishment on this earth, does he have any way to change his course and outcome?

Some will go away into eternal punishment.
Some will go away into eternal life.

We have a hope of eternal life.  Titus 3:7, "so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Jesus said in Rev 2:10, ".... Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life."

What if you aren't faithful unto death?  If OSAS were actually true, this admonition to remain faithful is meaningless.

The Hebrew writer says, "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him" - Heb 5:9

Eternal salvation is for those who OBEY!!!  If a person stops obeying, stops confessing their sins to God, and just stops trying, why would that person expect to receive the eternal salvation?

Just as the one who is bound for eternal punishment can change and be forgiven and escape their "eternal punishment", so can one wander off from the truth (Jas 5), become entangled again (2 Pet 2), can be severed from Christ and fall from grace (Gal 5) and have believed in vain (I Cor 15).


----------



## spwatz

Matt 7:13-14 Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

What is easier than just believe and once you do you can never be lost?  I don't know how much wider that gate could be?  How is that a "hard" way????

God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him (Heb 11:6).  For some one to believe and "accept Jesus into his heart" (whatever that means, because it is certainly not scriptural) and then be saved forever no matter what type of lifestyle they live certainly does not sound like the narrow gate that Jesus describes that is hard to find.

Diligence takes work and effort.  It is a continuance of effort.  It is not a one time deal.


----------



## welderguy

spwatz said:


> Matt 7:13-14 Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
> 
> What is easier than just believe and once you do you can never be lost?  I don't know how much wider that gate could be?  How is that a "hard" way????
> 
> God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him (Heb 11:6).  For some one to believe and "accept Jesus into his heart" (whatever that means, because it is certainly not scriptural) and then be saved forever no matter what type of lifestyle they live certainly does not sound like the narrow gate that Jesus describes that is hard to find.
> 
> Diligence takes work and effort.  It is a continuance of effort.  It is not a one time deal.



What you describe is a salvation based on man's works.
And worse, you are in essence saying Jesus loved you for a while,but then when you messed up He decided to stop loving you.

I lean on this promise:

Mal.3:6
"For I am the Lord God,I change not.Therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."


----------



## Artfuldodger

Romans 11:29-31
29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience,  31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.


----------



## j_seph

scenario: You are saved, and say it was possible to live straight by the bible, perfectly. You have lived this way for 40 years, your driving home lets say from Sunday morning service, you runoff the road, killing someone either in your car or on side of road and you die instantly as well. The bible tells us Thou shalt not kill. Yet it is your fault you ran off the road and "killed" someone. Are you going to H e l l because of what you did?


----------



## centerpin fan

j_seph said:


> scenario: You are saved, and say it was possible to live straight by the bible, perfectly. You have lived this way for 40 years, your driving home lets say from Sunday morning service, you runoff the road, killing someone either in your car or on side of road and you die instantly as well. The bible tells us Thou shalt not kill. Yet it is your fault you ran off the road and "killed" someone. Are you going to H e l l because of what you did?



IMO ... no.

Still don't believe in OSAS, though.  YMMV.


----------



## spwatz

I do NOT believe in a works based salvation.  Let me be clear.  Man earns exactly zero percent of his salvation.  I do believe obedience is required but obedience is not meritorious.

When Naaman was told to wash in the Jordan, he did not earn his cure from leprosy.  If that was the case, then everyone who had leprosy could do what he did and God would owe it to them to cure them.

When God gave Jericho to the children of Israel (Josh 6:2), He had instructions for them.  When they obeyed, the walls fell by faith (Heb 11:30).

And J seph, I do not believe in a ping pong salvation.  Consider I John 1:7-9, "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"

Notice vs 7, walking in the light and sin.  That does not mean that we are sinless while walking in the light, just cleansed.  The blood keeps on cleaning us while we are in the light.

Notice all the conditional statements.  What if we stop walking in the light?  What if we stop confessing our sins?

Oh, and it's not a matter of God or Jesus stopping from loving us.  God loves the sinner and sent his Son, yet most men are lost.  God loves the sinner that is going to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored and wants him to be saved (I Tim 2:4).

It's not a matter of God not loving us, but more a matter of us not loving God.

John 14:15 - If you love me, you will keep my commandments

I John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Can it be truthfully said that we love God if we have absolutely no desire to obey Him???

I know a guy who believes in OSAS.  He accepted Jesus into his heart when he was younger (not a biblical teaching) and now he cusses like a sailor, drinks and gets drunk, has no desire to attend any type of worship, acknowledges that there is a God but does absolutely nothing in trying to obey Him.

Again, nobody has addressed the passages but rather have come up with hypothetical questions and tried to tell me what I believe.

Mental gymnastics are required to try and explain away the clear teaching in scripture.  One passage will never negate another.  Both are true.  If they contradict in your mind, then you don't have a good understanding of one or both of them.

Severed from Christ means that one was joined with Christ, then severed.

Fallen from grace means that you were once in grace but no longer.

James talks about saving a brother from death after he has wandered from the truth.  There is only one obvious conclusion for this passage at the end of James 5.

This is not that hard.  Why resist plain teaching?  If you need help to misunderstand a passage, then what are your real motives?

2 Pet 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

What is the OBVIOUS meaning of this passage?

I Cor 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

What is the obvious meaning of this passage.  What does it mean to have "believed in vain"??????


----------



## welderguy

A more thorough study of Hebrews will show you how much better and complete the sacrifice of Jesus' blood is than anything man can do.

It says we are NOT of those who fall back unto perdition.He's speaking of those that have been made just,who live by faith.Who've had God's laws written in their hearts.And who have been saved to the uttermost.

It is possible for a child of God to miss entering into rest in this life,through a heart of unbelief,but the Hebrew writer is not speaking of eternal rest but a rest in this life.

Moses didn't lose his salvation,even though he wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Late arriving to the show. Sorry.  

To those who think it possible to lose your salvation I ask this:

What did you have to do with earning it?  Nothing.  It's a gift that you didn't earn, wasn't yours to give and isn't yours to return nor lose and if God was gonna take it back why did he save you in the first place, because he definitely knew what your future held when he initially granted it and he's not in the habit of playing shell games or carnival tricks.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

SemperFiDawg said:


> Late arriving to the show. Sorry.
> 
> To those who think it possible to lose your salvation I ask this:
> 
> What did you have to do with earning it?  Nothing.  It's a gift that you didn't earn, wasn't yours to give and isn't yours to return nor lose and if God was gonna take it back why did he save you in the first place, because he definitely knew what you future held when he initially granted it and he's not in the habit of playing she'll games or carnival tricks.



Yes I know it's a run-on sentence.....or two.


----------



## gordon 2

SemperFiDawg said:


> Late arriving to the show. Sorry.
> 
> To those who think it possible to lose your salvation I ask this:
> 
> What did you have to do with earning it?  Nothing.  It's a gift that you didn't earn, wasn't yours to give and isn't yours to return nor lose and if God was gonna take it back why did he save you in the first place, because he definitely knew what your future held when he initially granted it and he's not in the habit of playing shell games or carnival tricks.



You did not do anything to gain salvation? If something that is gifted  need's no acceptance, which is something akin to extending the hand and taking possession of the gift. No need of taking possession of grace?

If I'm right and your wrong, which is doubtful that you will see me being right, but yet if I'm right that indeed you must get yourself in the way to get the gift, ( which is free otherwise it would not be a gift) then it follows that equally following your logic it is that salvation can be dropped by the receiver and in some rare cases not gifted back.

So to those who say they cannot lose salvation, then I must ask you this:

Why do you bother with fellowship and pray for brothers you say are now "lost"? Why do you care to even listen to a brother say, "Will Jesus save my nation from our backsliding ways?" Why do you grieve for what is lost that once was your gain? and then say it is impossible to lose it once it is gained?

You will say "ah "they" never had"? And I will say yes, some never take possession of the gift and some on account they need not, being told by cleverness instead of wisdom they need not.

Which is mine a christian who's heart is mine or one who's mouth is their's.


----------



## hobbs27

spwatz said:


> What is the obvious meaning of this passage.  What does it mean to have "believed in vain"??????



To have never truly believed at all.

Churches are full of preachers,  elders, deacons and lay members that believe in vain.

That's why I prefer the , If saved always saved.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> To have never truly believed at all.
> 
> Churches are full of preachers,  elders, deacons and lay members that believe in vain.
> 
> That's why I prefer the , If saved always saved.




How did you get to know this? What is this based on?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Why would someone profess Christ as their Savior and join a Church if they never believed at all?


----------



## j_seph

Artfuldodger said:


> Why would someone profess Christ as their Savior and join a Church if they never believed at all?


To be looked upon differently, it takes more than Church membership and your mouth saying it.

Romans 10:9
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Maybe they do believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. Perhaps they just don't show their belief as outwardly as other Christians.


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> How did you get to know this? What is this based on?



Opinion.


----------



## j_seph

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe they do believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. Perhaps they just don't show their belief as outwardly as other Christians.


  Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


----------



## Artfuldodger

My response was to if they have never truly believed at all.

Why would a man go to the trouble of faking a conversion and joining a Church? 
While I'm sure there are non-Christians in the Church, I'm not quite sure they faked their way in there.

I think they joined with good intentions but then became lukewarm after the newness wore off. It's not like they never were saved. 

God uses the marriage analogy. Has everyone who is now divorced, never been married to begin with? Don't couples fall out of love? They were at one time truly in love. Something changes in their lives as they loose sight. Can someone fall out of love?


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Opinion.



Who's opinion? What does it contain, as in some criteria for believing some believe in vain?


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> My response was to if they have never truly believed at all.
> 
> Why would a man go to the trouble of faking a conversion and joining a Church?
> While I'm sure there are non-Christians in the Church, I'm not quite sure they faked their way in there.
> 
> I think they joined with good intentions but then became lukewarm after the newness wore off. It's not like they never were saved.
> 
> God uses the marriage analogy. Has everyone who is now divorced, never been married to begin with? Don't couples fall out of love? They were at one time truly in love. Something changes in their lives as they loose sight. Can someone fall out of love?



They tell me that Solomon did, that he was batting in the zone and had a really good pitching coach and then he got smarter than his coach  and ended up with  lousy advise... and went to batting below 200 and basically had to retire. Went from winning steaks to a big  and important loss where he got too sure of himself, overlooked his lifelong coach and never recovered.


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Who's opinion? What does it contain, as in some criteria for believing some believe in vain?



Mine. And no love for the brethren.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Mine. And no love for the brethren.


-

No elders to check this? Or members in general?


----------



## spwatz

hobbs27 said:


> To have never truly believed at all.
> 
> Churches are full of preachers,  elders, deacons and lay members that believe in vain.
> 
> That's why I prefer the , If saved always saved.



I Cor 15:1-2 is talking about those who have received the gospel and are being saved by the gospel. There is a condition placed on them. Continue and keep being saved or stop and let that belief be in vain. Don't try to claim that they never really believed because clearly they are. 

“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."”
CensoredCensored2 Peterâ€¬ Censored2:20-22â€¬ CensoredESVâ€¬â€¬

These were really saved but became entangled again. It would have been better for them to have never known the way of righteousness, which is impossible if OSAS were true. 

“My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
CensoredCensoredJamesâ€¬ Censored5:19-20â€¬ CensoredESVâ€¬â€¬

These are saved brothers that wander from the truth with their sins uncovered (unforgiven). If they return their soul is saved from death. See James ch 1 if you don't know what type of death this is. 

I don't mean to be too blunt, but to ignore scripture and claim that they were really never saved is beyond my comprehension.


----------



## hobbs27

spwatz said:


> I Cor 15:1-2 is talking about those who have received the gospel and are being saved by the gospel. There is a condition placed on them. Continue and keep being saved or stop and let that belief be in vain.
> 
> 
> I don't mean to be too blunt, but to ignore scripture and claim that they were really never saved is beyond my comprehension.



  huh?
 Were they saved..or in the process of being saved?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Maybe we shouldn't use the terms "saved" or "salvation" when applying them to the fate of our eternal life or everlasting death.

If you can loose it, then you never know for sure until you die. We could just use the word "hope."


----------



## Artfuldodger

I've often wondered if we ourselves can snatch ourselves away from God. After reading about Pharoah, Jonah, Isaac, Peter, Saul/Paul, Jesus, and Judas, I'm not quite sure.

The great Potter makes vessels for his use as in the example of the folks I listed above. He even controls their beliefs. If they don't want to follow him he makes them. If they want to follow him he makes them not. He hardens and blinds. He softens and calls.
Perhaps he hardens and then softens some people. Perhaps whole nations.

Then I read all of those letters Paul wrote to the Churches warning them to stay true. Why the warnings if they didn't have free will?

So maybe if we have free will we can walk away from God but if we are predestined we can't.

It might be the other way around, we have free will until we accept Jesus and then we loose it. If one accepts Jesus, does Jesus always accept them?

Sometimes instead of the marriage analogy which one can walk away from, I think about it as how I view my children. I could never turn my back on my own children, no matter what they do. Even if they disown me, I will always own them. They will always be my children. Even if they never returned.


----------



## hobbs27

Maybe I'm wrong.

http://babylonbee.com/news/local-man-frantically-searches-couch-cushions-lost-salvation/


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> http://babylonbee.com/news/local-man-frantically-searches-couch-cushions-lost-salvation/



Hey, that's Centerpin's job!


----------



## gordon 2

James 1:27  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

How do we keep ourselves unspotted from the world? Idea?


----------



## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> James 1:27  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
> 
> How do we keep ourselves unspotted from the world? Idea?



By believing Jesus died for our spots.

My take on Christianity is that we are all sinners. We can't quit sinning. We are doomed to everlasting death because of sin. We needed a Savior to die for our sins. Jesus filled that position. Or slate has been wiped clean. Jesus will mediate when we stand trial. 

We are children of God, we inherit everlasting life, we become heirs to the kingdom, we will eventually see Jesus as he is and become like him.

If we could quit sinning we wouldn't need Jesus. If we live by the Law we will be judge by the Laws standards. One can return to the Law and try it. 
Try it, see if you like it.


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> By believing Jesus died for our spots.
> 
> My take on Christianity is that we are all sinners. We can't quit sinning. We are doomed to everlasting death because of sin. We needed a Savior to die for our sins. Jesus filled that position. Or slate has been wiped clean. Jesus will mediate when we stand trial.
> 
> We are children of God, we inherit everlasting life, we become heirs to the kingdom, we will eventually see Jesus as he is and become like him.
> 
> If we could quit sinning we wouldn't need Jesus. If we live by the Law we will be judge by the Laws standards. One can return to the Law and try it.
> Try it, see if you like it.




Maybe I should have started a new tread.... with my question.


----------



## gemcgrew

spwatz said:


> What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."



Where in the Bible is a child of God ever referred to by an appellation of dog or sow?


----------



## spwatz

gemcgrew said:


> Where in the Bible is a child of God ever referred to by an appellation of dog or sow?



That's an easy one. 2 Pet 2:20-22 

“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."”
CensoredCensored2 Peterâ€¬ Censored2:20-22â€¬ CensoredESVâ€¬â€¬

Let's review, they have escaped the defilements. How? Through the knowledge of the Lord and SAVIOR Jesus Christ.

They were washed, unentangled, and it would have better for them to have never known the way of righteousness. Impossible if OSAS were true. 

If someone want to protect a pet belief, they will at the expense of scripture. 

Gal 5:4 is too clear. “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.”
CensoredCensored
Severed from Christ and fallen from grace. Will someone say they were never really connected with Christ and in grace? That would be absurd?

Someone explain away the clear meaning of the brother in James 5 that wanders from the truth?  His sins are not covered and is bound for spiritual death. 

This could not be more clear. You literally have to try to twist the meaning of this passage. Why not accept the clear meaning??????


----------



## Artfuldodger

Romans 1:23
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

or;
and traded the glory of the incorruptible God

or;
And changed the glory of the incorruptible God


----------



## SemperFiDawg

gemcgrew said:


> Where in the Bible is a child of God ever referred to by an appellation of dog or sow?



"Appellation"?  Oh my!  That there word needs to be censored.  Of a dog or cow no less.  And I thought this was a family friendly forum.  Christian even!


----------



## SemperFiDawg

gordon 2 said:


> You did not do anything to gain salvation? If something that is gifted  need's no acceptance, which is something akin to extending the hand and taking possession of the gift. No need of taking possession of grace?
> 
> If I'm right and your wrong, which is doubtful that you will see me being right, but yet if I'm right that indeed you must get yourself in the way to get the gift, ( which is free otherwise it would not be a gift) then it follows that equally following your logic it is that salvation can be dropped by the receiver and in some rare cases not gifted back.



It goes without saying that one must accept the gift.  That's common sense.  Man has moral freedom and can either accept or reject it, but you make it sound like after he has accepted it, it's like a football that can be fumbled, dropped, recovered and ran back by the opposition for a game ending touchdown.   

My point is it's not like that at all.  Christ's death and resurrection completed the victory over sin and death.  When you accept his gift, his atonement is applied to you personally.  Here's the point I think you and many others miss.  AT THE INSTANT YOU ACCEPT CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR EVERYTHING CHANGES.  AT THAT INSTANT IT BECOMES TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON WHAT CHRIST HAS DONE, your actions with regards to your salvation are inconsequential.  You are saved based on what Christ did.  You can't change that, nor can you change the ramifications thereof, because at that point it has nothing to do with your actions and everything to do with his.


----------



## Artfuldodger

SemperFiDawg said:


> It goes without saying that one must accept the gift.  That's common sense.  Man has moral freedom and can either accept or reject it, but you make it sound like after he has accepted it, it's like a football that can be fumbled, dropped, recovered and ran back by the opposition for a game ending touchdown.
> 
> My point is it's not like that at all.  Christ's death and resurrection completed the victory over sin and death.  When you accept his gift, his atonement is applied to you personally.  Here's the point I think you and many others miss.  AT THE INSTANT YOU ACCEPT CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR EVERYTHING CHANGES.  AT THAT INSTANT IT BECOMES TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON WHAT CHRIST HAS DONE, your actions with regards to your salvation are inconsequential.  You are saved based on what Christ did.  You can't change that, nor can you change the ramifications thereof, because at that point it has nothing to do with your actions and everything to do with his.



Unless you are gay, then if in that "instant" you  don't change your actions then it has everything to do with your actions. 
Let's say that in that "instant" you truly believe Jesus died for your sins but never truly repent or maybe repent for a week or a month. 
Maybe you are a drunkard and in that "instant" you are saved. You repent for a month and start drinking again.

In what kind of sinner does  instant salvation apply?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Is Salvation Instantaneous or a Process?

Romans 11:5-6
5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

In what kind of sinner does  instant salvation apply? The one chosen by grace.

Maybe for those chosen by grace it happens in an instant and for those chosen by works, it's an ongoing process based on their works.

Could Abraham have been chosen by his works of faith, etc. and Paul chosen by grace? If so what would the outcome have been if Abraham was not faithful? Would God go to plan B and choose another patriarch?


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> Is Salvation Instantaneous or a Process?
> 
> Romans 11:5-6
> 5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
> 
> In what kind of sinner does  instant salvation apply? The one chosen by grace.
> 
> Maybe for those chosen by grace it happens in an instant and for those chosen by works, it's an ongoing process based on their works.
> 
> Could Abraham have been chosen by his works of faith, etc. and Paul chosen by grace? If so what would the outcome have been if Abraham was not faithful? Would God go to plan B and choose another patriarch?



Art, what is, is.

Yes, out of the myriad of things that can be imagined (how would anyone know if Abraham was indeed not already the second, fourth, millionth...choice?) what God establishes...is what is.

Yet the point remains for each of us, what has God established...within? For a man can receive nothing except it be given him from above.

We are here. The measure of that being true conviction in us is only measured to us in the measure of faith _measured to us_. 

Were we to look upon God as a possibility, there is a forum for that. Along with all the other "infinite" possibilities a halting man makes between his own opinions.

If we want shaky...the whole of the world is ours for the embrace. Unless we have been made to see it off limits.
What have we been "made to see"? Take that in whatever context it suggests.
Forced. 
Created.
Fashioned.
Obligated.

Listen to Me, O islands,
            And pay attention, you peoples from afar.
            The LORD called Me from the womb;
            From the body of My mother He named Me.
      2He has made My mouth like a sharp sword,
            In the shadow of His hand He has concealed Me;
            And He has also made Me a select arrow,
            He has hidden Me in His quiver.

      3He said to Me, “You are My Servant, Israel,
            In Whom I will show My glory.”

      4But I said, “I have toiled in vain,
            I have spent My strength for nothing and vanity;
            Yet surely the justice due to Me is with the LORD,
            And My reward with My God.”

      5And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
            To bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him
            (For I am honored in the sight of the LORD,
            And My God is My strength),

      6He says, “It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
            To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
            I will also make You a light of the nations
            So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”

      7Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and its Holy One,
            To the despised One,
            To the One abhorred by the nation,
            To the Servant of rulers,
            “Kings will see and arise,
            Princes will also bow down,
            Because of the LORD who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel who has chosen You.”

      8Thus says the LORD,
            “In a favorable time I have answered You,
            And in a day of salvation I have helped You;
            And I will keep You and give You for a covenant of the people,
            To restore the land, to make them inherit the desolate heritages;

      9Saying to those who are bound, ‘Go forth,’
            To those who are in darkness, ‘Show yourselves.’
            Along the roads they will feed,
            And their pasture will be on all bare heights.

      10“They will not hunger or thirst,
            Nor will the scorching heat or sun strike them down;
            For He who has compassion on them will lead them
            And will guide them to springs of water.

      11“I will make all My mountains a road,
            And My highways will be raised up.

      12“Behold, these will come from afar;
            And lo, these will come from the north and from the west,
            And these from the land of Sinim.”

      13Shout for joy, O heavens! And rejoice, O earth!
            Break forth into joyful shouting, O mountains!
            For the LORD has comforted His people
            And will have compassion on His afflicted.


14But Zion said, “The LORD has forsaken me,
            And the Lord has forgotten me.”

      15“Can a woman forget her nursing child
            And have no compassion on the son of her womb?
            Even these may forget, but I will not forget you.

      16“Behold, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands;
            Your walls are continually before Me.

      17“Your builders hurry;
            Your destroyers and devastators
            Will depart from you.

      18“Lift up your eyes and look around;
            All of them gather together, they come to you.
            As I live,” declares the LORD,
            “You will surely put on all of them as jewels and bind them on as a bride.

      19“For your waste and desolate places and your destroyed land—
            Surely now you will be too cramped for the inhabitants,
            And those who swallowed you will be far away.

      20“The children of whom you were bereaved will yet say in your ears,
            ‘The place is too cramped for me;
            Make room for me that I may live here.’

      21“Then you will say in your heart,
            ‘Who has begotten these for me,
            Since I have been bereaved of my children
            And am barren, an exile and a wanderer?
            And who has reared these?
            Behold, I was left alone;
            From where did these come?’”

      22Thus says the Lord GOD,
            “Behold, I will lift up My hand to the nations
            And set up My standard to the peoples;
            And they will bring your sons in their bosom,
            And your daughters will be carried on their shoulders.

      23“Kings will be your guardians,
            And their princesses your nurses.
            They will bow down to you with their faces to the earth
            And lick the dust of your feet;
            And you will know that I am the LORD;
            Those who hopefully wait for Me will not be put to shame.

      24“Can the prey be taken from the mighty man,
            Or the captives of a tyrant be rescued?”

25Surely, thus says the LORD,
            “Even the captives of the mighty man will be taken away,
            And the prey of the tyrant will be rescued;
            For I will contend with the one who contends with you,
            And I will save your sons.

      26“I will feed your oppressors with their own flesh,
            And they will become drunk with their own blood as with sweet wine;
            And all flesh will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior
            And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”


A man can receive nothing except it be given him from above.


----------



## spwatz

hobbs27 said:


> huh?
> Were they saved..or in the process of being saved?



Well, this very passages says they were being saved as long as they continued in the gospel.

The gospel had been preached, they received it and were standing in it and being saved, but that salvation was conditional on them holding fast to the word, otherwise, THEY HAVE BELIEVED IN VAIN.  This is a very easy passage to understand if you let scripture determine your beliefs rather than trying to conform scripture into what you already believe. 

Salvation in scripture is referred to in the past tense, present tense, and future tense. I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. 

Here is a future tense:

“Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.”
CensoredCensoredRomansâ€¬ Censored13:11

How could salvation be nearer if it is already obtained and impossible to lose?

“You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.”
CensoredCensoredGalatiansâ€¬ Censored5:4â€¬ Censored

Severed from Christ. You CANNOT BE SEVERED from something you were never joined to, therefore, he is talking to Christians. Christians were severed and fallen from grace. Can one be saved outside of Christ?  

“My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
CensoredCensoredJamesâ€¬ Censored5:19-20â€¬ Censored

What is the obvious conclusion for a brother who was among them (fellow christian) who is not brought back. You cannot be brought back to a place you never were.

They are LOST, their soul is headed toward death (eternal punishment) and their sins are uncovered (unforgiven).

Death - “Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.”
CensoredCensoredJamesâ€¬ Censored1:15-16â€¬ Censored

As James said, "Do not be deceived".


----------



## gordon 2

SemperFiDawg said:


> It goes without saying that one must accept the gift.  That's common sense.  Man has moral freedom and can either accept or reject it, but you make it sound like after he has accepted it, it's like a football that can be fumbled, dropped, recovered and ran back by the opposition for a game ending touchdown.
> 
> My point is it's not like that at all.  Christ's death and resurrection completed the victory over sin and death.  When you accept his gift, his atonement is applied to you personally.  Here's the point I think you and many others miss.  AT THE INSTANT YOU ACCEPT CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR EVERYTHING CHANGES.  AT THAT INSTANT IT BECOMES TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON WHAT CHRIST HAS DONE, your actions with regards to your salvation are inconsequential.  You are saved based on what Christ did.  You can't change that, nor can you change the ramifications thereof, because at that point it has nothing to do with your actions and everything to do with his.



I agree that the change from someone without faith to someone with faith is due to God's grace in all cases, faith being a intrinsic aspect of God's personality and love be it given through the ministry of Jesus ( especially) or given by Him through the natures of His creations. 

Yet is a life of faith alone ( based on accepting Jesus as one's personal Savior) with an indifference to the justice found within the faith still a claim to salvation?

Or I'll put it in a simpler way perhaps, is it possible to injure our life in faith by sin to the point of loosing out or pushing out salvation? Does the old law that sin is a cause of death because it is a distancing from God still apply and to the faithful especially? And if not, why not?

Does individual sin injure an individual's life of faith to the extent as to take them out of the way of salvation? Ideas?


----------



## hobbs27

spwatz said:


> Well, this very passages says they were being saved as long as they continued in the gospel.
> 
> The gospel had been preached, they received it and were standing in it and being saved, but that salvation was conditional on them holding fast to the word, otherwise, THEY HAVE BELIEVED IN VAIN.  This is a very easy passage to understand if you let scripture determine your beliefs rather than trying to conform scripture into what you already believe.
> 
> Salvation in scripture is referred to in the past tense, present tense, and future tense. I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved.
> 
> Here is a future tense:
> 
> “Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.”
> CensoredCensoredRomansâ€¬ Censored13:11
> 
> How could salvation be nearer if it is already obtained and impossible to lose?
> 
> “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.”
> CensoredCensoredGalatiansâ€¬ Censored5:4â€¬ Censored
> 
> Severed from Christ. You CANNOT BE SEVERED from something you were never joined to, therefore, he is talking to Christians. Christians were severed and fallen from grace. Can one be saved outside of Christ?
> 
> “My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
> CensoredCensoredJamesâ€¬ Censored5:19-20â€¬ Censored
> 
> What is the obvious conclusion for a brother who was among them (fellow christian) who is not brought back. You cannot be brought back to a place you never were.
> 
> They are LOST, their soul is headed toward death (eternal punishment) and their sins are uncovered (unforgiven).
> 
> Death - “Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.”
> CensoredCensoredJamesâ€¬ Censored1:15-16â€¬ Censored
> 
> As James said, "Do not be deceived".



Hebrews 9:28 so also Christ died once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.

They were in the process of being saved, yet there was no salvation until Christ came or comes again to bring salvation. 

If we look for Christ's coming then there is still no salvation today, nothing to lose.


----------



## Israel

I want to know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to Him in His death, so that I may somehow attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been perfected, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me...

Somewhere this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Turned to this:

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.


down-stream, up-stream of little consequence if one is in over their heads.
toe in the water may not count for much. God knows.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

gordon 2 said:


> Yet is a life of faith alone ( based on accepting Jesus as one's personal Savior) with an indifference to the justice found within the faith still a claim to salvation?



Now you're not speaking to OSAS, but to the issue of if someone is saved or not.  Two totally separate issues.  To your question I will say this:  a true claim of salvation from the mouth only comes after the HS testifies to ones spirit ( or is born of the Spirit).  Once this happens one is saved.  

C. S. Lewis said something along the lines of "Becoming a Christian doesn't make everyone forevermore exhibit saintly behavior, it only makes us behave  better that we behaved before we were saved


----------



## gordon 2

SemperFiDawg said:


> Now you're not speaking to OSAS, but to the issue of if someone is saved or not.  Two totally separate issues.



Ok. I don't understand your reply, but I don't understand many things.  I understood from your post that the folk that accept Jesus as their individual Savior (  AT THE INSTANT YOU ACCEPT CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR EVERYTHING CHANGES.),were saved and always saved. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe I did not understand you at all.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

gordon 2 said:


> Ok. I don't understand your reply, but I don't understand many things.  I understood from your post that the folk that accept Jesus as their individual Savior (  AT THE INSTANT YOU ACCEPT CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR EVERYTHING CHANGES.),were saved and always saved. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe I did not understand you at all.



That's fine.  I don't see any of these arguments changing anyone's mind on the subject anyway.  I'll leave it with yall.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> Unless you are gay, then if in that "instant" you  don't change your actions then it has everything to do with your actions.
> Let's say that in that "instant" you truly believe Jesus died for your sins but never truly repent or maybe repent for a week or a month.
> Maybe you are a drunkard and in that "instant" you are saved. You repent for a month and start drinking again.
> 
> In what kind of sinner does  instant salvation apply?


----------



## gordon 2

SemperFiDawg said:


> That's fine.  I don't see any of these arguments changing anyone's mind on the subject anyway.  I'll leave it with yall.



I would never argue with you my brother. I only wished a share in your outlook. Not to change you, but to change myself and not in a selfish way, but as two brothers gain happiness and appreciation for one better known, even in smarting differences, to the other. So bros. leave it as you will, but don't leave me.


----------



## Israel

Maybe because we can't dissassemble it, it is shown to be a good thing?
An utterly undissassemble-able thing?


----------



## gordon 2

Hey! Centerpin, Yoko knitting blindly is a wonderful living sculpture I think. Thanks.


----------



## centerpin fan

gordon 2 said:


> Hey! Centerpin, Yoko knitting blindly is a wonderful living sculpture I think. Thanks.




I think this clip from _The Rutles_ pretty much nails Yoko.


----------



## gordon 2

Israel said:


> Maybe because we can't dissassemble it, it is shown to be a good thing?
> An utterly undissassemble-able thing?



Interesting. I'm not sure who you are responding to. But I will stab, as I often do, that Eve and Adam, two perfect creatures in every way, managed to want to be like God in perfection to such a degree as to gum up life in many ways. They willed to trade their created perfection for a greater one, which was the perfection of their Creator.

So they "dissaseembled" the dialect which was their's with God by trying to assemble a new one, thinking it would give them better advantages and be better politics and a way better freedom only it made them captives and afforded them very limiting freedoms. They were worse off than from the state they had wished to better--to the point of needing a few total reboots...

The ministry of grace is "dissasembled" that by wanting to do well we would do poorly and confuse what is God's hand in His justice and our hand in it?

I am not certain at this moment if I am in the way of the life God created for me. It is not that I doubt Him, I doubt myself--I that had never known, never be as the perfection of Adam or Eve other than having known it in my Lord Jesus, how they left Him with good intentions perhaps, and how my my intentions might be from  far more or  thousands of corrupted intentions yet seeming well intended.

Sin in my life has robbed me of a natural intercourse with God, which in turn skewed (es) the judgement that now in hindsight I might have had regards other important people and relationships ( as in my relationship to His church --our church) in my life. It seems to me that sin has a way of "dissasembling"  salvation. But I might be wrong on this.

(This reassembled and dissasembling stuff is confusing when I think and write on it. It is almost like despite my best intentions I fall into the grips of some aspect of wrath and manage to spur it on and even beliving myself "saved" or in the faith, I cannot rein it back from my experience...???)


----------



## gordon 2

centerpin fan said:


> I think this clip from _The Rutles_ pretty much nails Yoko.



Brother... I would share a glass of good wine with you right now and a bite of cheese if it were possible. Marvelous!  Marvelous! The manikin face of that wonderful girl is a joy! and a testimony to the conservative discipline possible in the arts  so as to smash the sacred cows of society and it's gurus. Sante Bros. I raise you my glass. Also, the very near resemblance of that guru's likeness to some of the classic images of Jesus is not lost on me. The interplay of both characters-- Hilter's dauther and the guru as artists and giving press conferences is  well worth another wine refill.  Sante!


----------



## Artfuldodger

Just from watching that clip let me know Monty Python's Eric Idle was at work making that movie.
The irony of John talking about peace while his new girlfriend is talking about dropping humans from planes. 
She is prettier than Yoko but can she sing.


----------



## Israel

gordon 2 said:


> Interesting. I'm not sure who you are responding to. But I will stab, as I often do, that Eve and Adam, two perfect creatures in every way, managed to want to be like God in perfection to such a degree as to gum up life in many ways. They willed to trade their created perfection for a greater one, which was the perfection of their Creator.
> 
> So they "dissaseembled" the dialect which was their's with God by trying to assemble a new one, thinking it would give them better advantages and be better politics and a way better freedom only it made them captives and afforded them very limiting freedoms. They were worse off than from the state they had wished to better--to the point of needing a few total reboots...
> 
> The ministry of grace is "dissasembled" that by wanting to do well we would do poorly and confuse what is God's hand in His justice and our hand in it?
> 
> I am not certain at this moment if I am in the way of the life God created for me. It is not that I doubt Him, I doubt myself--I that had never known, never be as the perfection of Adam or Eve other than having known it in my Lord Jesus, how they left Him with good intentions perhaps, and how my my intentions might be from  far more or  thousands of corrupted intentions yet seeming well intended.
> 
> Sin in my life has robbed me of a natural intercourse with God, which in turn skewed (es) the judgement that now in hindsight I might have had regards other important people and relationships ( as in my relationship to His church --our church) in my life. It seems to me that sin has a way of "dissasembling"  salvation. But I might be wrong on this.
> 
> (This reassembled and dissasembling stuff is confusing when I think and write on it. It is almost like despite my best intentions I fall into the grips of some aspect of wrath and manage to spur it on and even beliving myself "saved" or in the faith, I cannot rein it back from my experience...???)



What I meant does not negate in any sense your exercise of consideration...and either approach to clarity...or revelation of a necessity of confusion's departure.


But what I did mean was this...as in that mentioned stream analogy. (And because I know you have been fond of recalling "And this is eternal life...that they may know thee, the One true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent")

This: God is irreducible, despite whatever (seeming) finitude we may experience of His being. Like Paul said "not that I am already made perfect"...which I take to mean "I've seen some stuff, I've apprehended some stuff, I've walked in some stuff...but I am not yet "there" (and I realize that is a terribly weak descriptive, but how else shall we take it...even/especially if believing Paul's own words of himself?)

We do talk of growth, do we not? A moving toward...with also a very palpable "moving away" from, no? It is instructed, and also implied. John speaks of children, young men, and fathers. And what are the signal elements of such stages.

This growth is as children of, and by faith...and does not imply a growing to become a child, but that the faith has already established the nature of the child as new creature...there...to grow. I suppose we could get into matters of "what retards growth...hinders growth", causes a man like Paul to say "by the time you should be teachers...you still need instructing".

But what I meant by the resistance to dissassembly was the wonder of salvation of itself...being of God. The trying to reverse engineer, so to speak (and God knows my own appointed frustrations rightly met) of a thing that cannot be "broken down" into elements (because it is of God).

It frsutrates questions like "If eternal life is knowing God...but I can freely admit I don't "know" all of God...what portion in measure then...do I have of eternal life?" It sounds silly I know, when stated...but it is not really too far from our speculations of "how saved...is saved"? When is salvation complete (except God know?)
How retarded a child can I be (or any)...and still not be disqualified? All of the which become foolish speculations when said outwardly...because to think in terms of "how little need I apprehend?" already shows an immaturity that could be dangerously damaging to a soul...and yet "I need to understand everything" may also come with its own peculiar set of issues...cause such a desire can be itself deceiving of an apparent Godly motive...when it is solely for the acquisition of information...and is itself neglectful of growth in relationship. So, now like you, I find a similar quandry ...then  "how does this thing work???" How do I know if I am being presumptuous...in what I "think" I know? What if all I hoped is gold is nothing more than wood, hay, stubble, gilded, as it were, by my own ego? Shall I trust "it makes me feel good?...loved...?...secure? at peace?"...when self reference is all...what can I be...but lost?

Really, though, where does this ultimately lead us...as men not really ever knowing anything "of ourselves?" Except totally reliant. How could I know I am deceived, when the very nature of deception is a hidden thing? Upon whom then can any rely...to be "looking out for them?"

Who alone knows times and seasons, growth rates and/or need of spurs...when encouragement is needed...or reproof be better...or even rebuke?


And I think our progress is always back to our beginning..."as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in Him..." As always, dependent in faith. A return always to first love, whose need may be most manifestly present if by any thought of "I am glad I am the one not needing to do that for I already love Jesus...enough." is displayed.

How different is life...from what once appeared...as life. Where once everything had to be set in a (seemingly) understandable order to prevent dissappointments or shame. Our life starts in the place where "he who believes shall not be disappointed or put to shame". And stays there.

Although I know I am not telling you anything you don't already know, nor even offering anything that could possibly be of help...I am just offering that I put my pants on the same way. 

But I do know this...my wife can tell when I am trying to figure her out...and when I am so caught up with something else "in a newness"...I am just loving her. And it appears to me relationships suffer under the former...and yet the latter...just being "allowed" to love her...is its own reward.


----------



## gordon 2

Israel said:


> What I meant does not negate in any sense your exercise of consideration...and either approach to clarity...or revelation of a necessity of confusion's departure.
> 
> 
> But what I did mean was this...as in that mentioned stream analogy. (And because I know you have been fond of recalling "And this is eternal life...that they may know thee, the One true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent")
> 
> This: God is irreducible, despite whatever (seeming) finitude we may experience of His being. Like Paul said "not that I am already made perfect"...which I take to mean "I've seen some stuff, I've apprehended some stuff, I've walked in some stuff...but I am not yet "there" (and I realize that is a terribly weak descriptive, but how else shall we take it...even/especially if believing Paul's own words of himself?)
> 
> We do talk of growth, do we not? A moving toward...with also a very palpable "moving away" from, no? It is instructed, and also implied. John speaks of children, young men, and fathers. And what are the signal elements of such stages.
> 
> This growth is as children of, and by faith...and does not imply a growing to become a child, but that the faith has already established the nature of the child as new creature...there...to grow. I suppose we could get into matters of "what retards growth...hinders growth", causes a man like Paul to say "by the time you should be teachers...you still need instructing".
> 
> But what I meant by the resistance to dissassembly was the wonder of salvation of itself...being of God. The trying to reverse engineer, so to speak (and God knows my own appointed frustrations rightly met) of a thing that cannot be "broken down" into elements (because it is of God).
> 
> It frsutrates questions like "If eternal life is knowing God...but I can freely admit I don't "know" all of God...what portion in measure then...do I have of eternal life?" It sounds silly I know, when stated...but it is not really too far from our speculations of "how saved...is saved"? When is salvation complete (except God know?)
> How retarded a child can I be (or any)...and still not be disqualified? All of the which become foolish speculations when said outwardly...because to think in terms of "how little need I apprehend?" already shows an immaturity that could be dangerously damaging to a soul...and yet "I need to understand everything" may also come with its own peculiar set of issues...cause such a desire can be itself deceiving of an apparent Godly motive...when it is solely for the acquisition of information...and is itself neglectful of growth in relationship. So, now like you, I find a similar quandry ...then  "how does this thing work???" How do I know if I am being presumptuous...in what I "think" I know? What if all I hoped is gold is nothing more than wood, hay, stubble, gilded, as it were, by my own ego? Shall I trust "it makes me feel good?...loved...?...secure? at peace?"...when self reference is all...what can I be...but lost?
> 
> Really, though, where does this ultimately lead us...as men not really ever knowing anything "of ourselves?" Except totally reliant. How could I know I am deceived, when the very nature of deception is a hidden thing? Upon whom then can any rely...to be "looking out for them?"
> 
> Who alone knows times and seasons, growth rates and/or need of spurs...when encouragement is needed...or reproof be better...or even rebuke?
> 
> 
> And I think our progress is always back to our beginning..."as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in Him..." As always, dependent in faith. A return always to first love, whose need may be most manifestly present if by any thought of "I am glad I am the one not needing to do that for I already love Jesus...enough." is displayed.
> 
> How different is life...from what once appeared...as life. Where once everything had to be set in a (seemingly) understandable order to prevent dissappointments or shame. Our life starts in the place where "he who believes shall not be disappointed or put to shame". And stays there.
> 
> Although I know I am not telling you anything you don't already know, nor even offering anything that could possibly be of help...I am just offering that I put my pants on the same way.
> 
> But I do know this...my wife can tell when I am trying to figure her out...and when I am so caught up with something else "in a newness"...I am just loving her. And it appears to me relationships suffer under the former...and yet the latter...just being "allowed" to love her...is its own reward.



I think you are wise beyond your yrs young man.


----------



## M80

I can't help but jump in here. Probably will not be in a lot. Webs e got to realize that our flesh isn't saved. Our inner man is. It is born of God and what is born of God cannot sin. James does talk about works but he is saying I'll show I'm saved by my works. If we are truly saved we will be a new creature. Y'all know where I stand on this cause we have debated it many times, but I can help someone it will be worth discussing this again. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God so why would anyone believe our flesh has anything to do with keeping our salvation. The bible never tells us how many sins make us loose our salvation and John 3:16 clearly tells us we have everlasting life. To loose our salvation and be cast in he11 means death. The bible dosnt contridict itself. Study out a kings sealing with wax. He can't go back on his word. Daniel stilled had to be thrown in the lions den and read the book of Ester.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

mwilliams80 said:


> I can't help but jump in here. Probably will not be in a lot. Webs e got to realize that our flesh isn't saved. Our inner man is. It is born of God and what is born of God cannot sin. James does talk about works but he is saying I'll show I'm saved by my works. If we are truly saved we will be a new creature. Y'all know where I stand on this cause we have debated it many times, but I can help someone it will be worth discussing this again. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God so why would anyone believe our flesh has anything to do with keeping our salvation. The bible never tells us how many sins make us loose our salvation and John 3:16 clearly tells us we have everlasting life. To loose our salvation and be cast in he11 means death. The bible dosnt contridict itself. Study out a kings sealing with wax. He can't go back on his word. Daniel stilled had to be thrown in the lions den and read the book of Ester.



Well said


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Study out a kings sealing with wax. He can't go back on his word. Daniel stilled had to be thrown in the lions den and read the book of Ester.



Romans 11:29
For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.

It's part of the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God the we don't completely comprehend. 
His judgements are unsearchable and his ways are untraceable. 

Romans 11:35-26
“Who has given so much to God, that God should repay him?” 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.


----------



## gordon 2

1 Corinthians 6:13

New International Version
You say, "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both." The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.


----------



## j_seph

Never imagined this would go this far I just want to say:
Thank the Lord for seeking me out and saving my soul to the uttermost.


----------



## gordon 2

j_seph said:


> Never imagined this would go this far I just want to say:
> Thank the Lord for seeking me out and saving my soul to the uttermost.


----------



## centerpin fan

j_seph said:


> Never imagined this would go this far ...



Some of us did.  See post 2.


----------



## Artfuldodger

John 5:14
Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."

Ideas?


----------



## Artfuldodger

2 Peter 2:21
It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Luke 12:47-48
That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and from him who has been entrusted with much, even more will be demanded.

Ideas? Maybe it was for the people living in the transitional period when the two covenants overlapped.

Matthew 13:12
Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.

Hopefully this isn't talking about spiritual things but physical things like health and wealth.


----------



## spwatz

Simon, in Acts 8 believed and was baptized.  Did Simon really believe? Well, the scripture says he did (Acts 8:13), so yes, he really believed.  If someone contends that he didn't really believe in order to protect their erroneous beliefs, then they are clearly at odds with scripture.

He was also baptized (Acts 8:13).  So, he fulfilled the instructions in Mark 16:16 and was in a saved condition.

Yet just a few verses later this is said of Simon, "20 But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21 You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” 24 And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

So what does it mean to perish.  Jn 3:16 also uses this concept of perishing and I think everyone understands that.  He also needed to be forgiven and was described as being in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.  Would this be the description of a saved person?  Certainly not.

What if he didn't repent and pray?  The obvious conclusion is that he would not be forgiven and he would perish.  Here is a saved individual that needed forgiveness and that forgiveness was conditional.

How did Simon respond?  He repented and wanted Peter to pray for him so he could obtain that forgiveness.

When you compare this to I Cor 15:1-2, "Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.", then you can see how the example in Acts and the admonition in 1 Cor match in perfect harmony.  It also aligns with the instructions in 1 John, "9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

So what if we stop confessing our sins?  Our sins won't be forgiven.  If our sins are not forgiven, then we are held accountable for our sins and the wages of sin is death, spiritual death.

This agrees perfectly with James 5, "19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins".

What about the brother that is now classified as a sinner?  He has a multitude of sins that need to be covered and he is headed for spiritual death.

OSAS is not found in scripture and is in direct opposition with the example of Simon and the rest of scripture.


----------



## hummerpoo

spwatz said:


> Simon, in Acts 8 believed and was baptized.  Did Simon really believe? Well, the scripture says he did (Acts 8:13), so yes, he really believed.  If someone contends that he didn't really believe in order to protect their erroneous beliefs, then they are clearly at odds with scripture.
> 
> He was also baptized (Acts 8:13).  So, he fulfilled the instructions in Mark 16:16 and was in a saved condition.
> 
> Yet just a few verses later this is said of Simon, "20 But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21 You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” 24 And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”
> 
> So what does it mean to perish.  Jn 3:16 also uses this concept of perishing and I think everyone understands that.  He also needed to be forgiven and was described as being in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.  Would this be the description of a saved person?  Certainly not.
> 
> What if he didn't repent and pray?  The obvious conclusion is that he would not be forgiven and he would perish.  Here is a saved individual that needed forgiveness and that forgiveness was conditional.
> 
> How did Simon respond?  He repented and wanted Peter to pray for him so he could obtain that forgiveness.
> 
> When you compare this to I Cor 15:1-2, "Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.", then you can see how the example in Acts and the admonition in 1 Cor match in perfect harmony.  It also aligns with the instructions in 1 John, "9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
> 
> So what if we stop confessing our sins?  Our sins won't be forgiven.  If our sins are not forgiven, then we are held accountable for our sins and the wages of sin is death, spiritual death.
> 
> This agrees perfectly with James 5, "19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins".
> 
> What about the brother that is now classified as a sinner?  He has a multitude of sins that need to be covered and he is headed for spiritual death.
> 
> OSAS is not found in scripture and is in direct opposition with the example of Simon and the rest of scripture.



Simon is a great example of man's helplessness without God.  He believed (just as the Demon's do) and he was baptized (just as any man can be), and likely did other things that a man can do, all to no avail;
Salvation is of the Lord.


----------



## welderguy

hummerpoo said:


> Simon is a great example of man's helplessness without God.  He believed (just as the Demon's do) and he was baptized (just as any man can be), and likely did other things that a man can do, all to no avail;
> Salvation is of the Lord.



That's a BIG period!

I second that Hummer.


----------



## hobbs27

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

These folks were eagerly awaiting salvation...It has now come.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Hebrews 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
> 
> These folks were eagerly awaiting salvation...It has now come.



They were waiting,as we are,for Jesus to come.
Not Titus Vespasius.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> They were waiting,as we are,for Jesus to come.
> Not Titus Vespasius.



So from what you are saying we like them are still waiting on salvation?


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> They were waiting,as we are,for Jesus to come.
> Not Titus Vespasius.



Must we wait for Jesus to come?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> So from what you are saying we like them are still waiting on salvation?



We have the earnest of our inheritance in our possession now. But,the full inheritance is to come.

That does not mean the full inheritance is not ours right now,but it means we are not in possession of it yet.


----------



## hobbs27

I believe Paul was the author of Hebrews, but that doesn't matter. The author is writing well after the cross, but notice how he puts himself at the end of the age..the consummation of the ages..plural.

Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Jesus had to come out of the Holiest place to announce salvation to the people to complete the atonement. That's what they were awaiting. His coming..appearance..ie Parousia. That's what He did in 70 ad and that's why we have salvation and they were awaiting it.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I believe Paul was the author of Hebrews, but that doesn't matter. The author is writing well after the cross, but notice how he puts himself at the end of the age..the consummation of the ages..plural.
> 
> Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
> 
> Jesus had to come out of the Holiest place to announce salvation to the people to complete the atonement. That's what they were awaiting. His coming..appearance..ie Parousia. That's what He did in 70 ad and that's why we have salvation and they were awaiting it.



I think the problem with your view of Heb. 9 is this:

You say Jesus had to come out of the Holiest of Holies(heaven) and present Himself to man in order to reveal that His sacrifice was accepted.

But I say,after Jesus made His sacrifice,His resurrection is what revealed His Father's acceptance.He entered into the presence of the Father,which could never have been possible if Jesus still had our sins upon Him.

My point is He presented Himself to the Father successfully, not to man.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I think the problem with your view of Heb. 9 is this:
> 
> You say Jesus had to come out of the Holiest of Holies(heaven) and present Himself to man in order to reveal that His sacrifice was accepted.
> 
> But I say,after Jesus made His sacrifice,His resurrection is what revealed His Father's acceptance.He entered into the presence of the Father,which could never have been possible if Jesus still had our sins upon Him.
> 
> My point is He presented Himself to the Father successfully, not to man.



Then why do you say it's not finished till He returns?

Also if you read 9:26 correctly the author is placing himself in the old covenant.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Then why do you say it's not finished till He returns?
> 
> Also if you read 9:26 correctly the author is placing himself in the old covenant.



I'm not saying that salvation is unfinished. It IS finished. Accomplished. Done.

The Father accepted His sacrifice and our sins are no more.

The salvation that we are waiting for is the redemption of our bodies,when we are glorified and we receive our full inheritance.

Rev.22:12
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I'm not saying that salvation is unfinished. It IS finished. Accomplished. Done.
> 
> The Father accepted His sacrifice and our sins are no more.
> 
> The salvation that we are waiting for is the redemption of our bodies,when we are glorified and we receive our full inheritance.
> 
> Rev.22:12
> "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."




Rev. 22:10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 


That was almost 2000 years ago..

Daniel 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Daniel is written 600 years before John writes Revelation. Daniel is told to seal his prophecy for the time is far off.... John is told not to seal his for the time was near..

So 600 years is far off...but 2,000 years is near?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Rev. 22:10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
> 
> 
> That was almost 2000 years ago..
> 
> Daniel 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
> 
> Daniel is written 600 years before John writes Revelation. Daniel is told to seal his prophecy for the time is far off.... John is told not to seal his for the time was near..
> 
> So 600 years is far off...but 2,000 years is near?



The text in Dan.8 does not say it was "far off". Those are terms that you have added.

I submit to you that the "many days" was very near, and Jesus' return is also very near. 
You have need of patience.


----------



## hobbs27

New Living Translation
"This vision about the 2,300 evenings and mornings is true. But none of these things will happen for a long time, so keep this vision a secret."

I'm not making stuff up, you're denying what is clearly given to us in the Word.

Here's another place Daniel is told to seal his prophecy..because in later times people would increase in knowledge.

That time was the time of the apostles.

Daniel 12:4 But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."

They increased in knowledge because the Holy Spirit was revealing to them what the prophets of old didn't even understand themselves.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> New Living Translation
> "This vision about the 2,300 evenings and mornings is true. But none of these things will happen for a long time, so keep this vision a secret."
> 
> I'm not making stuff up, you're denying what is clearly given to us in the Word.
> 
> Here's another place Daniel is told to seal his prophecy..because in later times people would increase in knowledge.
> 
> That time was the time of the apostles.
> 
> Daniel 12:4 But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."
> 
> They increased in knowledge because the Holy Spirit was revealing to them what the prophets of old didn't even understand themselves.



I'm not so sure you should limit this "increase in knowledge" to specifically the time of the apostles. This was the time that the spread of knowledge was first beginning(preaching of the gospel/reading of the epistles).
I believe we are still increasing in knowledge today by the Spirit.


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> Must we wait for Jesus to come?



henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of the righteousness that the Lord -- the Righteous Judge -- shall give to me in that day, and not only to me, but also to all those loving his manifestation.

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

From now on, there is stored up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give to me on that day; and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved his appearing.


You'll only wait for what you love.

Consider the patience (longsuffering) of God...as salvation.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I'm not so sure you should limit this "increase in knowledge" to specifically the time of the apostles. This was the time that the spread of knowledge was first beginning(preaching of the gospel/reading of the epistles).
> I believe we are still increasing in knowledge today by the Spirit.




On an individual basis I agree. We should increase in knowledge. But in reference to Daniel 12:4 it is in reference to the time of the end and the increase in knowledge at the time of the end. I know of one more place in scripture that talks about this, I can look it up if you like but it is concerning the Apostles and how the Holy Spirit was revealing to them what had been hidden in understanding for centuries...well,  that and the fact they made it very very clear that they were living in the time of the end referenced to in Daniel 12:4.


----------



## j_seph

welderguy said:


> I think the problem with your view of Heb. 9 is this:
> 
> You say Jesus had to come out of the Holiest of Holies(heaven) and present Himself to man in order to reveal that His sacrifice was accepted.
> 
> But I say,after Jesus made His sacrifice,His resurrection is what revealed His Father's acceptance.He entered into the presence of the Father,which could never have been possible if Jesus still had our sins upon Him.
> 
> My point is He presented Himself to the Father successfully, not to man.


He also presented the fact that a Man in flesh could live his life for God, without sin and an example to us all as to how we should live each and every day.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> On an individual basis I agree. We should increase in knowledge. But in reference to Daniel 12:4 it is in reference to the time of the end and the increase in knowledge at the time of the end. I know of one more place in scripture that talks about this, I can look it up if you like but it is concerning the Apostles and how the Holy Spirit was revealing to them what had been hidden in understanding for centuries...well,  that and the fact they made it very very clear that they were living in the time of the end referenced to in Daniel 12:4.



I believe Jesus was speaking of this in His prayer to the Father:

John 17
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

This prayer includes you and I. We are believers of the gospel also.
But its not on an individual basis because Jesus desires that we all be one. And all be where He is...as one.

That is at the end of time. Dont you think?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I believe Jesus was speaking of this in His prayer to the Father:
> 
> John 17
> 20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
> 
> 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
> 
> This prayer includes you and I. We are believers of the gospel also.
> But its not on an individual basis because Jesus desires that we all be one. And all be where He is...as one.
> 
> That is at the end of time. Dont you think?



That prayer is about the twelve and folks believing their preaching to the time of the end..when they would all be one as the bride. 


Where do we fit in?  We are children of the resurrection.luke 20:36

There is no end of time, just a time of the end. It was old covenant Israel end.


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## Rich M

Y'know, the 2 frames of thought - you can lose your salvation or you cannot lose your salvation - depend on your relationship with the Father.

I used to prescribe to the you CAN lose your salvation thought.  There are scriptures that appear to indicate this.  Likewise, there are scriptures that appear to point to the other mindset...

Then one day in the past year, I realized that I'm NOT going to "accidentally" lose my salvation and life became a lot more peaceful.  My walk became steadier and my faith stronger.  Go figure.  The enemy wants to trivialize stuff and cause doubt in our hearts - remove the doubt, remove the enemy's hold.

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

This is like the serpent in the wilderness - God had the snakes come and bite people.  Those who looked upon the raised serpent lived, those who didn't died.  No actions were required beyond the faith to look to the serpent that was raised up.  Those who believed lived.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> That prayer is about the twelve and folks believing their preaching to the time of the end..when they would all be one as the bride.
> 
> 
> Where do we fit in?  We are children of the resurrection.luke 20:36
> 
> There is no end of time, just a time of the end. It was old covenant Israel end.



So you're trying to tell me that I'm not part of the "all that thou hast given me"?
And that I'm not part of the bride(church)?
And that I'm not part of those that are one with Christ and the Father?
And that I will not be where Jesus is?
And that the earth will continue on for eternity?

You derived all that from this text?

I say nonsense.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> So you're trying to tell me that I'm not part of the "all that thou hast given me"?
> And that I'm not part of the bride(church)?
> And that I'm not part of those that are one with Christ and the Father?
> And that I will not be where Jesus is?
> And that the earth will continue on for eternity?
> 
> You derived all that from this text?
> 
> I say nonsense.



Right.
Right.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Maybe.
No, entire Bible.


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## centerpin fan




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## Artfuldodger

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me. 39And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of all those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.  40For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

What is this "last day" spoken of? Is this when our salvation starts?


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## spwatz

I Cor 15:2, Believed in vain - that would be impossible if OSAS were actually scriptural.

"Believes" indicates a continuing action, not a one time deal.  Notice the contradiction in John 3:36-37 -  Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Notice Heb 3:18-19 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

They believed in God, no doubt.  They had seen the plagues and walked across a sea on dry ground.  They believed in God, they just didn't obey so they couldn't enter.  Their disobedience is called unbelief.

If we stop obeying, then we will not be able to enter the promised land because of our unbelief, the same as them.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

Ok, so what happens to the person who stops obeying?  Stops confessing their sins (I Jn 1:7-9).  Wanders from the truth (Jam 5:19-20)?  Simple, they will be lost and will have believed in vain according to I Cor 15:1-2.

They have fallen from grace and been severed from Christ (Gal 5:4).  You cannot fall from a place you never occupied or be severed from something you were never joined to.


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## j_seph

centerpin fan said:


>


op2:
Sorry I am just craving some popcorn after seeing that big bag


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## Artfuldodger

j_seph said:


> op2:
> Sorry I am just craving some popcorn after seeing that big bag



I think he's gonna need more Pepsi!


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## hummerpoo

"To posit the possibility of a person being justiﬁed here and now and yet failing to receive ﬁnal acquittal is, for Paul, nonsense."

http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/52/52-2/JETS 52-2 323-339 Ortlund.pdf


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## mtnwoman

welderguy said:


> Ephesians 4:30
> 
> And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
> 
> Philippians 1:6
> 
> Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
> 
> John 6:39
> 
> 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
> 
> John 10:28
> 
> And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
> 
> 
> Romans 8:35-39
> 
> 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
> 
> 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
> 
> 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
> 
> 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
> 
> 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



AMEN!!! Personal experience proves it to me. Glory hallelujah for the  blood of the Lamb!!  Nothing can snatch you out of the palm of His hand.


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## welderguy

mtnwoman said:


> AMEN!!! Personal experience proves it to me. Glory hallelujah for the  blood of the Lamb!!  Nothing can snatch you out of the palm of His hand.



I'd love to hear about some of those personal experiences sometime.

(p.s. my wife is from the mountains)


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