# I love chicken and homosexuals



## Pale Rider

Catchy title, don't you think? In all seriousness, I have been a longtime lover of fried chicken since I was a kid with brand new teeth. Truett Cathy came to ABAC to speak to the BSU and I had the opportunity to meet him in person and when the meet and greet was over he asked to come see our dorm room. My roommate had spoken to Truett and shared with him that he was an orphan and lived with his aunt and uncle. He worked for 2 quarters then went to school for two quarters. Truett was moved and offered to pay his tuition, no strings attached. However, he wanted to inspect our dorm room. I suspect that he was looking for evidence of a less than moral lifestyle. Lucky for us we were out of beer and had just cleaned the room. Because of his generosity, I have always been a big fan of Truett Cathy and his business and I have always respected how he sticks to his beliefs.

In my long life of 42 years, I have made quite a few friends, some I would consider dear friends. One of these friends has been with his partner for almost 25 years. Longer than I have been with my wife. They truly love one another and have been very good to me and my family. They are what you would call "spiritual" people. They believe in God, pray to Jesus and live a very moral life. They don't feel comfortable going to church because they feel that they would be the center of attention, which, to be honest, they probably would. And some "saved" soul would probably go out of their way to further their fears. These two fellows really have not given much thought to getting married in a traditional sense and they have informed me that for about $1000 and with the help of a good attorney, they pretty much share the same rights as most married couples.

I have witnessed these two men give enormous amounts of money to those in need, volunteer their time to help the needy and if anyone in our circle of friends ever needs anything, they are usually the first couple we call. They are our go-to babysitters and are wonderful with our kids. Neither drink or smoke or do drugs and they have a wonderful home full of love. I would defend these two to my last breath if anyone ever attempted to dishonor them. They are two of the best people I know.

So, tonight, my wife and I are going over there to swim and she called them to see what we needed to bring to the cookout. She called and Jim answered the phone. When my wife asked what we needed to bring he said, "Just stop by Chick-fil-A and grab some sandwiches. We are working in the yard and will be too tired to cook. We just want to relax in the pool."

I guess they are too busy working in the yard to hate Dan Cathy. Maybe some of my Christian brothers and sisters can find something else to do than to hate them.


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## rjcruiser

I've got friends and co-workers...well...maybe I should say coworkers that are friends...that are gay as well.  And they are just as nice and moral as many other straight friends/coworkers I know.

That being said, I don't believe you can be a follower of Jesus Christ and live a life of homosexuality.

Can I (and Dan Cathy for that matter) have our belief's that homosexuality is wrong and not be labeled as "hateful?"


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## Pale Rider

I can absolutely believe that you can not like homosexuality and not be labeled hateful. But I disagree that you cannot be a follower of Christ and a homosexual. 

Can you fudge on your taxes and be a follower of Christ? Can you laugh at a dirty joke and be a follower of Christ? Can you commit a legion of sins and be a follower of Christ? Lots of people have sins that they cannot shake and still be followers of Christ. However, Jesus commanded us to love. In fact He said it is the Greatest Commandment. I'll mind what he said and let him sort the sinners. I'm sure I'll get sorted into my own area.


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## centerpin fan

Pale Rider said:


> Can you commit a legion of sins and be a follower of Christ? Lots of people have sins that they cannot shake and still be followers of Christ.



... but they don't see homosexuality as sin.




Pale Rider said:


> However, Jesus commanded us to love.



Jesus commanded us to repent:

_From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand._ -- Matthew 4:17


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## JB0704

Pale Rider said:


> I can absolutely believe that you can not like homosexuality and not be labeled hateful. But I disagree that you cannot be a follower of Christ and a homosexual.
> 
> Can you fudge on your taxes and be a follower of Christ? Can you laugh at a dirty joke and be a follower of Christ? Can you commit a legion of sins and be a follower of Christ? Lots of people have sins that they cannot shake and still be followers of Christ. However, Jesus commanded us to love. In fact He said it is the Greatest Commandment. I'll mind what he said and let him sort the sinners. I'm sure I'll get sorted into my own area.



PR, I'm with 'ya on your position here.  I think the fine line is when we express our "love" that we do not change what we believe to be true.  And the two can be accomplished.  Many believe they cannot be accomplished simultaneously.  I have a very close friend who is gay, and have some wonderful gay neighbors, and coached little league with a lesbian for years.  I know all about what you are saying. 

If any of them asked me what my position on being gay was, I would say I am straight, and a Christian, and that I am nobody to judge anybody else.  If they asked me what the Bible said about it, I would tell them.  Same as if they asked me what I thought the Bible said about anything.


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## pstrahin

centerpin fan said:


> ... but they don't see homosexuality as sin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus commanded us to repent:
> 
> _From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand._ -- Matthew 4:17





And repent means: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life.

So to answer your question, you cannot intentionally, knowingly sin and be a follower of Christ.


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## grouper throat

I think you might be misunderstanding something. We do not 'hate' them (I dislike using hate anyway as it's such a strong word). I have nothing against gay people and I too have met some very nice people who are gay.
It's the sin of homosexuality that we do not like.


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## Nastytater

Pale Rider said:


> Maybe some of my Christian brothers and sisters can find something else to do than to hate them.



Who said anything about hating them other than the left wingers that are trolling the site?..I refuse to have someone tell me I hate anybody. Doesn't matter who they are or what they believe in. I hate no one. Maybe I hate their beliefs or way of living,but it's not for me to decide. Thats their own decision to make and it doesn't mean that I have too agree with it. But I don't hate them. God will have his judgement on them and on me soon enough,but my life is mine and nobody elses to judge.


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## Spotlite

Pale Rider said:


> Maybe some of my Christian brothers and sisters can find something else to do than to hate them.



Its amazing that all you here is "hate" the homosexual. I didnt see any hate messages or even name calling from any Christians over this. It was a quiet peaceful show of appreciation of support from folks that share the same family values. I didnt even hear the word homosexual mentioned when I went to Chick-fil-A.

I did and still do see the other side calling us bigots, hate breeds ect.


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## StriperAddict

Spotlite said:


> Its amazing that all you here is "hate" the homosexual. I didnt see any hate messages or even name calling from any Christians over this. It was a quiet peaceful show of appreciation of support from folks that share the same family values. I didnt even hear the word homosexual mentioned when I went to Chick-fil-A.
> 
> I did and still do see the other side calling us bigots, hate breeds ect.


 
Yessir. I have nothing to add.


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## thedeacon

Pale Rider said:


> Catchy title, don't you think? In all seriousness, I have been a longtime lover of fried chicken since I was a kid with brand new teeth. Truett Cathy came to ABAC to speak to the BSU and I had the opportunity to meet him in person and when the meet and greet was over he asked to come see our dorm room. My roommate had spoken to Truett and shared with him that he was an orphan and lived with his aunt and uncle. He worked for 2 quarters then went to school for two quarters. Truett was moved and offered to pay his tuition, no strings attached. However, he wanted to inspect our dorm room. I suspect that he was looking for evidence of a less than moral lifestyle. Lucky for us we were out of beer and had just cleaned the room. Because of his generosity, I have always been a big fan of Truett Cathy and his business and I have always respected how he sticks to his beliefs.
> 
> In my long life of 42 years, I have made quite a few friends, some I would consider dear friends. One of these friends has been with his partner for almost 25 years. Longer than I have been with my wife. They truly love one another and have been very good to me and my family. They are what you would call "spiritual" people. They believe in God, pray to Jesus and live a very moral life. They don't feel comfortable going to church because they feel that they would be the center of attention, which, to be honest, they probably would. And some "saved" soul would probably go out of their way to further their fears. These two fellows really have not given much thought to getting married in a traditional sense and they have informed me that for about $1000 and with the help of a good attorney, they pretty much share the same rights as most married couples.
> 
> I have witnessed these two men give enormous amounts of money to those in need, volunteer their time to help the needy and if anyone in our circle of friends ever needs anything, they are usually the first couple we call. They are our go-to babysitters and are wonderful with our kids. Neither drink or smoke or do drugs and they have a wonderful home full of love. I would defend these two to my last breath if anyone ever attempted to dishonor them. They are two of the best people I know.
> 
> So, tonight, my wife and I are going over there to swim and she called them to see what we needed to bring to the cookout. She called and Jim answered the phone. When my wife asked what we needed to bring he said, "Just stop by Chick-fil-A and grab some sandwiches. We are working in the yard and will be too tired to cook. We just want to relax in the pool."
> 
> I guess they are too busy working in the yard to hate Dan Cathy. Maybe some of my Christian brothers and sisters can find something else to do than to hate them.



I hear what you are saying and I understand that the two men love each other, that does not make it ok. Homosexuality is wrong, not according to me but according to God. 

I do not hate homosexuals, I got to know a young lady at work, in fact we worked closely togather, and we grew very close as time went on. She was an orphan and was raised in the system and was molested at 3 of the homes that she had to misfortune of living in. I truly understand her feelings and I love Rachael dearly, she lives with her partner and they seem to be happy togather.

What is my problem then you are probably asking? My problem is I love Rachael and I don't want to see her "living" in sin. She doesn't just sin 20 or 30 times a day she is living in sin and openly chooses to do so.

I don't hate Homo's any more than I hate drunkards, thieves, liers, etc. I hate the sin not the sinner.

Most of you are right, Rachael's morals are much better than most Christians when it comes to language, family values, honesty, treatment of other people etc.

With all that said, she is still living in sin according to the bible and she admits that the bible speaks against making love to the same sex but she said she couldn't help how she felt. 

She is wrong and I pray for her often because I love her so much.


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## Artfuldodger

I have a Christian coworker who plays the lottery every day, spends about $30.00. He likes to give me a hard time for drinking stimulants in the morning. He doesn't think the Lottery is wrong and has no plans to quit. Is his salvation in danger equally as the married man who has sex with boys? Does it need to be a abomination? How does blessed assurance apply to a non-repentant homosexual Christian Liberal? What about a non homosexual Christian Liberal. I have a lot of good liberal Christians in my family and a lot of bad Christian conservatives. The conservatives do more of the little sins and the liberals defend the bigger sins.


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## centerpin fan

BT Charlie said:


> I don't perceive you as saying that Cathys or Chick Filet hate anyone.



Nope, just Christians in general:



Pale Rider said:


> Maybe some of my Christian brothers and sisters can find something else to do than to hate them.


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## hobbs27

Sin is sin, but we need to be careful how we are belittling all sin.Sure God forgives all but one sin, but before He can forgive we must repent and ask for forgiveness.If I wake up in the morning and steal my neighbors paper, I have committed a sin that's as nasty as any. If I decide to continue stealing everyday to the point I start to tell myself it's ok, then the blessings from God will leave and the void will be filled with chastisement.
 The only way I could fix this and get back in favor with God is to repent and ask forgiveness.
 There is no way a non repentant homosexual can be in good standings and receiving blessings from the Lord above while making a mockery of His kingdom....that's not my judgement ..it comes from the book.


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## centerpin fan

BT Charlie said:


> Is it not not totally ironic that we sinners impose conditions precedent on others for reconciliation.  "Only if you turn from your sin and walk perfectly, then I will ..."



It's not "we sinners" that came up with the concept of repentance:


_Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord._ -- Acts 3:19

_And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish._ -- Luke 13:2-3

_And they went out, and preached that men should repent._ -- Mark 6:12

_If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land._ -- 2 Chronicles 7:14


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## BT Charlie

Humbly, I hear the Pale Rider talking about some fellow believers, not all believers, and not believers generally.  And specifically, some who actually have hate in their hearts toward gay folk. I expanded perhaps the size of Pale Rider's net to include Christians who are perceived as haters.

Are we -- and I include myself -- loud and ardent about the bible's clarity in this one regard because we fear?  Truth is such whether anyone accepts it. Does it really require a human defense? And do our own motivations undermine that which we seek to vindicate?


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## JB0704

hobbs27 said:


> The only way I could fix this and get back in favor with God is to repent and ask forgiveness.
> There is no way a non repentant homosexual can be in good standings and receiving blessings from the Lord above while making a mockery of His kingdom....



Here's where I get stuck on this stuff.....

It seems the gayness is an "Easy target" for Christians because it is clearly against biblical teachings.  However, so is fornication.  

Many, in fact most, people I know committed the act of "fornicatin'" before they married their spouse.  

"Repent" means to turn away from a sin.  But, the man who marries the spouse he was "fornicating" with never really "turned away" from anything.....which is to say he would have continued said behavior if the wedding had not occurred.

Did he really repent?  I would think you could make a good case that he never "repented," and according to your above comments, would not be in good standing to recieve the blessings.

I guess my point is that we can point our fingers at anybody, but the most important "sin" is the one in our own lives.  It seems a better approach to live a life to be proud of, and be an example to others rather than open the door for finger pointing.  I have never known a gay person to turn away from that lifestyle because they were told to.  And it really bothers me when they are picked on in the name of God.


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## centerpin fan

BT Charlie said:


> With all sincerity and in love, is this then the distinction between the gay movement and other Christians who sin?



The distinction between the gay movement and Christians is that the gay movement is working to have _their_ sin declared "not a sin".  They've made a lot of progress in the popular culture.  They're trying to do the same thing in the church.

Christians acknowledge their sins and repent.


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## centerpin fan

BT Charlie said:


> Are we -- and I include myself -- loud and ardent about the bible's clarity in this one regard because we fear?



Fear what?


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## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> The distinction between the gay movement and Christians is that the gay movement is working to have _their_ sin declared "not a sin".  They've made a lot of progress in the popular culture.  They're trying to do the same thing in the church.
> 
> Christians acknowledge their sins and repent.



Ever heard a preacher say it's not practical to preach against fornication?  I have.

I have a good many Christian friends.  I would say less than 5% of them made it to their wedding day.  Most folks "know" they will be forgiven.

Like I said, gayness is an easy target, and Christians like to gun for it.  It comes across to me as mean spirited based on an inability to put things in perspective.  Just like a straight man "struggles" with "lust and fornication," a gay man struggles with homosexuality.  Who is better?


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## Artfuldodger

Pale Rider said:


> I guess they are too busy working in the yard to hate Dan Cathy. Maybe some of my Christian brothers and sisters can find something else to do than to hate them.



I think hate is the wrong word to use against everyone who is against gays. I'm not against gays and must call you on this one. I can see it being perceived as hatred because lots of people don't like groups of people that are different from them. There are people who hate gays the way me and my family hated blacks. Through education we've changed, well some of us. Granted discrimination of blacks wasn't a Biblical issue although Christians tried to make it one, blue birds don't go with red birds. Prejudices are hard to overcome. 
I just wish Christians would condem all sins the same.
I don't think I should have to rent a house to a non-married couple or left handers. I'm left handed and know how hard it is living in a house set up for right handers. They might burn down my house. I wouldn't say my business discriminations are caused by hatred. I should have the right to do business with only white people if I wanted too. I'm sure if Mr. Cathy said he would  donate money to groups that promoted discrimination against blacks it would be considered hate.


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## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> Ever heard a preacher say it's not practical to preach against fornication?  I have.



He's wrong.




JB0704 said:


> Just like a straight man "struggles" with "lust and fornication," a gay man struggles with homosexuality.  Who is better?



Neither is better if they realize they are in spiritual warfare and are actually struggling against the enemy.  When I talk about the "gay movement", I'm talking about people who are struggling to get their sin validated by society and the church.


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## BT Charlie

Centerpin,  I am slow on the typing here. Sorry.  I agree with you about the political movement and their politician puppets.  I recall in trembling the thread by Ronnie asking us if we are reconciled to the scripture that tells us to obey our government.  On the trajectory the politicians are taking it, on this issue, it may be a hate crime to speak the Word if they are successful. This has caused me anger and fear, i.e., I sin in response to their sin.

What motivates your passion for this issue -- the monied political movement behind big love? -- and why is it more passionate than your feelings say toward fisherman who lie, or husbands who look at other women in nice sun dresses at church, or people who eat a lot?


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## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> Neither is better if they realize they are in spiritual warfare and are actually struggling against the enemy.  When I talk about the "gay movement", I'm talking about people who are struggling to get their sin validated by society and the church.



But the happy couple livin' together before they are married do not suffer near the rebuke the gay couple does 

The man who didn't "keep it Biblical" until his wedding day is understood as being a typical man......

.....and the Christian community often makes the gay man out to be a monster who is only fit for rebuke.

I would say the church is very much validating the straight man by not making near the fuss about his sin that they are the gay man's.


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## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> But the happy couple livin' together before they are married do not suffer near the rebuke the gay couple does



They do at every church where I've been a member.  Couples that do that don't remain members for long.


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## JB0704

BT Charlie said:


> .....or husbands who look at other women in nice sun dresses at church....



I can't tell you how many times I have heard, seen, and even participated in discussions, at church, where these type things came up.   Perhaps not in crude terms, but everybody knew what was being said.  The woman who was the topic was "smokin'!"

......and everybody just laughs.  Then they rush down to CFA and buy a chicken sandwhich so the gay folks know they stand against "sin."


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## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> The man who didn't "keep it Biblical" until his wedding day is understood as being a typical man......



Again, this is not typical of the churches I'm familiar with.


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## rjcruiser

Pale Rider said:


> Lots of people have sins that they cannot shake and still be followers of Christ.



I just can't agree with that statement.  Struggle with...yes...but continually habitually sin in the same manner...I just don't think so.  God calls us to repentance.  Turning away from our sin.  Whether that is integrity issues, gluttony, homosexuality....they are all sins that sent Christ to the cross.



JB0704 said:


> that I am nobody to judge anybody else.  If they asked me what the Bible said about it, I would tell them.  Same as if they asked me what I thought the Bible said about anything.



What does the Bible say about Judging?



pstrahin said:


> And repent means: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life.
> 
> So to answer your question, you cannot intentionally, knowingly sin and be a follower of Christ.



I'll add intentionally, knowlingly sin _and then not repent_ and be a follower of Christ.


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## hobbs27

JB0704 said:


> Just like a straight man "struggles" with "lust and fornication," a gay man struggles with homosexuality.  Who is better?



Neither, and both have the Lord waiting with arms stretched if they turn from their evil ways.


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## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> They do at every church where I've been a member.  Couples that do that don't remain members for long.



I have to say our experiences are very different.

I knew a preacher once (never attended his church, but it was quite fundamentalist) whose wife left him.  He was heartroken.  And then he met someone online.....and he started "stumbling."  I remember this man, who took a firm stand against homosexuality, tell me that "it's impossible to turn down ---."  And all his friends, Christians, just laughed.


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## JB0704

hobbs27 said:


> Neither, and both have the Lord waiting with arms stretched if they turn from their evil ways.



....and the "fornicatin'" man who never "turned away" before he got married and made it "legal?"  What was repented?  The heart never changed.  He would still be "livin' in sin" if the wedding hadn't happened.......


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## centerpin fan

BT Charlie said:


> What motivates your passion for this issue -- the monied political movement behind big love? -- and why is it more passionate that your feelings toward fisherman who lie, or husbands who look at other women in nice sun dresses at church or people who eat a lot?



Because fishermen who lie, husbands who look at other women and people who eat a lot do not have national movements advocating to have their sins declared "not a sin".  OTOH, there are entire denominations that affirm the homosexual lifestyle (Metropolitan Community Churches, for example.)


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## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> I can't tell you how many times I have heard, seen, and even participated in discussions, at church, where these type things came up.   Perhaps not in crude terms, but everybody knew what was being said.  The woman who was the topic was "smokin'!"
> 
> ......and everybody just laughs.  Then they rush down to CFA and buy a chicken sandwhich so the gay folks know they stand against "sin."



You been going to that "First ______" church again?

Really though...I'm with Centerpin on this one.  If your church is going along with premarrieds sleeping together, that isn't a church...that's a social club.

As my father-in-law says, when you can't tell the difference between your church and Kiwanis club, you need to find a new church.


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## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> What does the Bible say about Judging?



WE have been through this before, you and I.  You up for going down that road again?   I will if you insist.......

I have made my share of mistakes (different than gayness, but mistakes none-the-less), and I am no better than anybody else.


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## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> You been going to that "First ______" church again?







rjcruiser said:


> Really though...I'm with Centerpin on this one.  If your church is going along with premarrieds sleeping together, that isn't a church...that's a social club.
> 
> As my father-in-law says, when you can't tell the difference between your church and Kiwanis club, you need to find a new church.



Man, I am burned out on trying.....took a hiatus from my short lived search.  The cynical "JB" was starting to get a little too loud while I was trying to focus on which church to visit.


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## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Again, this is not typical of the churches I'm familiar with.


I would say lust is a hard sin to overcome. Maybe they just don't want to talk about it. 
On another level, this topic has got  Christians to admit that confession of sins and repentance of sins are necessary for salvation. Maybe some from the "Assurance of Salvation" thread will learn the importance these two things are for salvation.


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## BT Charlie

Centerpin, yours is precisely the position I began with when I joined the forum about a year ago.  I googled "Where are you God?" and this forum was the first hit.  This issue was exactly what I was rassling with then.  At that time, it was precisely the political movement that caused me to be .... so focused.  Perhaps even hateful.  Two wrongs -- their sin and mine in response -- won't produce right.


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## JB0704

How many Christians abstian from movies, T.V. shows, music, etc. where "lust" or "fornicatin'" are treated as normal?

How many of us watched Seinfeld?  Friends?  Cheers?  How 'bout the movie "The Notebook?"  Who's wife made them watch that?  Or whatever other sitcoms are on T.V. today........how many of us turned our head in disgust when "straight" sins are depicted in popular culture?

What I am trying to say is that it seems Christians are very selective in our outrage.  It makes us seem like big hypocrits.


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## BT Charlie

The  "fishermen who lie" part may be redundant.


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## BT Charlie

I hear you JB.  So, back to Pale Rider's dear friends, are we called to love them into the Kingdom, or to lecture them, or to shun them?  That some may vigorously pick up these baited stones is the troubling part, brothers.


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## Artfuldodger

How do you justify all the snide remarks made against or at gays by Christians? I mean if they are against them for Biblical reasons, why not just say so. Don't say: I think he's got sugar in his tank, don't drop the soap, Rear Admiral of the Fleet, friend of Dorothy, etc.


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## hobbs27

JB0704 said:


> ....and the "fornicatin'" man who never "turned away" before he got married and made it "legal?"  What was repented?  The heart never changed.  He would still be "livin' in sin" if the wedding hadn't happened.......



If he hasn't made things right with God, then he's still sinning.
Let me ask this one question of you, just out of curiosity, and I'll have to read response later as Im going to bed.

Would you be ok with an actively practicing gay pastor as your pastor, and if not, why not?


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## Ronnie T

I just put down my Bible, having done some studying of 1Corinthians chap 5 in preparation for a Bible study.  Now I come to this new thread.
Let me say some stuff and see if you agree with me, based upon 1Cor 5.

According to chapter 5,,,,,,,,,,,,

 there is the church and there is the world.  The righteous, and the unrighteous.  The righteous do not judge the people of the world, according to Paul.  There's a good reason for Paul stating that, those outside the church don't need to worry about one particular sin in their life, they need Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Christians judge believers inside the church, but not unbelievers outside the church.  
It serves no purpose for me to judge someone who is outside of Christ!  They don't have the Holy Spirit to work in their lives!

Here's the point:
According to chapter 5, I am to condemn sin within the church (including homosexuality), but not the homosexual outside the church.  "Shock!"....  For the person who is outside of Christ, being a homosexual is the least of their problems.

I welcome anyone to come to church with me.  If someone tells me "That person is a known homosexual", I don't listen to it.  For me, that person is an unsaved sinner in many more ways other than homosexuality.

Take every opportunity to befriend people outside the church, homo or hetero.  Affect their lives.  Share Christ with them.  They need Christ not our condemnation.


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## Ronnie T

That wasn't just Christians who filled up at Chick fil a last Wednesday.  It was all of America (Christian or not) standing up to the liberal organized gay platform in America.

.


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## JB0704

hobbs27 said:


> Would you be ok with an actively practicing gay pastor as your pastor, and if not, why not?



Well, I don't have a "home church" these days....so this is hypothetical....but no, I would not be ok with it.  It is clearly against the "rules" as I see them (they are supposed to live "above reproach").  But, if I did beleive it was Biblically ok, then I would have no problem with it.  It's all in what we believe the "rules" to be.....and though I have very much tried to find a clear path around this one for my friends, I have not been able to.  That makes me hurt for them, particularly the ones who are Christian, because they fight a constant battle between their faith and their nature......heartbreaking.  

But if we believe in something, we might as well believe it.

This is also part of my drifting away from the local church.  It seems we are so selective in our beliefs, and folks make up things as they go......lust is laughable, but gayness is an abomination.  And we turn and point our finger at society and tell them how to live, and we can't seem to figure it out ourselves..........frustrating.

That being said, I would have no problem with them singing in the choir, setting up chairs, bringing a dish to a pot luck dinner, etc. This is based on John 4.....if you really want to open a can of worms   It's kind of the difference between leading the way, and seeking the way, and what Jesus' parameters of service seemed to be.  For the leadership, that is relatively well defined later in the NT.


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## HandgunHTR

Ronnie T said:


> I just put down my Bible, having done some studying of 1Corinthians chap 5 in preparation for a Bible study.  Now I come to this new thread.
> Let me say some stuff and see if you agree with me, based upon 1Cor 5.
> 
> According to chapter 5,,,,,,,,,,,,
> 
> there is the church and there is the world.  The righteous, and the unrighteous.  The righteous do not judge the people of the world, according to Paul.  There's a good reason for Paul stating that, those outside the church don't need to worry about one particular sin in their life, they need Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
> 
> Christians judge believers inside the church, but not unbelievers outside the church.
> It serves no purpose for me to judge someone who is outside of Christ!  They don't have the Holy Spirit to work in their lives!
> 
> Here's the point:
> According to chapter 5, I am to condemn sin within the church (including homosexuality), but not the homosexual outside the church.  "Shock!"....  For the person who is outside of Christ, being a homosexual is the least of their problems.
> 
> I welcome anyone to come to church with me.  If someone tells me "That person is a known homosexual", I don't listen to it.  For me, that person is an unsaved sinner in many more ways other than homosexuality.
> 
> Take every opportunity to befriend people outside the church, homo or hetero.  Affect their lives.  Share Christ with them.  They need Christ not our condemnation.



Great post Ronnie.

Christ didn't sup with the believers.  He chose to spend his time with the unbelievers.  Why?  Because they are the ones who needed (and still need) him the most.


----------



## JB0704

BT Charlie said:


> ....are we called to love them into the Kingdom, or to lecture them, or to shun them?  That some may vigorously pick up these baited stones is the troubling part, brothers.



I think the first........and I understand why folks like the OP think "we," as a whole, hate because it seems so many more choose #2 or #3.


----------



## mtnwoman

I agree with the hate thing, too, just because we don't agree, we're haters. We have to go with our conviction.

I have a very good male friend who is gay. He was molested as a child by a family member.  He's never been with a woman, and I've talked to him about trying it and all the other stuff that goes along with it. I'm a little bit embarrassed to say this but he says to his boy friends that 'that' is an exit not an entry, so there's part of it he doesn't allow. I feel he wouldn't be gay if that hadn't been his first sexual experience. I told him, well you have the right idea, just with the wrong sex, try a woman....I'm blushing for typing that. He doesn't think he was born that way, he thinks he developed it as a young boy.

I see his sin and he sees mine. He is a Christian. So I dunno... what can we say or do about all that?

By the way I am against gay marriage being legal.


----------



## mtnwoman

Oh and my son in law finally said something that made sense about CF....lol....he said if was about the money, they'd be open on sunday.


----------



## Ronnie T

JB0704 said:


> Well, I don't have a "home church" these days....so this is hypothetical....but no, I would not be ok with it.  It is clearly against the "rules" as I see them (they are supposed to live "above reproach").  But, if I did beleive it was Biblically ok, then I would have no problem with it.  It's all in what we believe the "rules" to be.....and though I have very much tried to find a clear path around this one for my friends, I have not been able to.  That makes me hurt for them, particularly the ones who are Christian, because they fight a constant battle between their faith and their nature......heartbreaking.
> 
> But if we believe in something, we might as well believe it.
> 
> This is also part of my drifting away from the local church.  It seems we are so selective in our beliefs, and folks make up things as they go......lust is laughable, but gayness is an abomination.  And we turn and point our finger at society and tell them how to live, and we can't seem to figure it out ourselves..........frustrating.
> 
> That being said, I would have no problem with them singing in the choir, setting up chairs, bringing a dish to a pot luck dinner, etc. This is based on John 4.....if you really want to open a can of worms   It's kind of the difference between leading the way, and seeking the way, and what Jesus' parameters of service seemed to be.  For the leadership, that is relatively well defined later in the NT.



I understand your point very well.
I've gone through a process dealing with this subject also.  I've had personal involvement that caused me to look for a way "around" the Biblical condemnation.  But I didn't find it, because there is no way around it.

I was friends with a set of twin brothers while I was growing up.  They both were obviously not like the rest of us guys.
Now, one died of aids quite a few years ago, and the other is no longer living vocally in and supporting the homosexual community.  He is celibate.

From the worlds point of view, that is sad.
He is content and enjoying life.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> I understand your point very well.
> I've gone through a process dealing with this subject also.  I've had personal involvement that caused me to look for a way "around" the Biblical condemnation.  But I didn't find it, because there is no way around it.
> 
> I was friends with a set of twin brothers while I was growing up.  They both were obviously not like the rest of us guys.
> Now, one died of aids quite a few years ago, and the other is no longer living vocally in and supporting the homosexual community.  He is celibate.
> 
> From the worlds point of view, that is sad.
> He is content and enjoying life.



You bring up a good point here Ronnie. I went to Church with a man that was in his 80's and although he had dated some women in his life, he never married, and claimed to have lived a life of celibacy.
 If I remember correctly Paul wasn't married, not sure if he was a widower or just never married but he had no wife to mention.
 So just because the homosexual lusts after the flesh of their own kind it does not mean they have to act on it, and I believe our Lord is strong enough to take that lust away from them if they pray for His help in doing so.


----------



## centerpin fan

BT Charlie said:


> So, back to Pale Rider's dear friends, are we called to love them into the Kingdom, or to lecture them, or to shun them?



We should love them.  If we don't tell them to repent, however, we are not loving them.


----------



## Spotlite

Pale Rider said:


> find something else to do than to hate them.



Not picking on you, just using your statement as it seems to be the topic of converstaion for now. Look at the difference in the protestors and supporters. It is obvious who hates who. This is just one, theres tons of it on-line. 

http://www.latimes.com/business/mon...hotogallery?index=la-me-chick-fila04_m87s85pd


----------



## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> I've had personal involvement that caused me to look for a way "around" the Biblical condemnation.  But I didn't find it, because there is no way around it.



I appreciate you saying that, Ronnie.  I was worried I would get hammered for admitting that I looked for a "biblical pass." 



Ronnie T said:


> From the worlds point of view, that is sad.
> He is content and enjoying life.



My gay Christian friend is sad.  It's because if he follows his heart (nature), he is tormented by his conscience (faith).  If he follows his conscience (faith), he is tormented by his heart (nature).

He is destined to either be a very lonely man, or to live life as a "sinner." That is not an enviable position.  And I think of him every time somebody picks on gay people.  I know his heart, have spent countless hours talking to him about his dillemma and I know he absolutely wants to do the right thing.  But, he has the same problem Paul had......



> *Romans 7:15 *I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.



Understanding that a man as great as Paul struggled with his nature helps me avoid throwning stones.


----------



## JB0704

hobbs27 said:


> If I remember correctly Paul wasn't married, not sure if he was a widower or just never married but he had no wife to mention.
> So just because the homosexual lusts after the flesh of their own kind it does not mean they have to act on it, and I believe our Lord is strong enough to take that lust away from them if they pray for His help in doing so.



Paul had his struggles.  See my last post.


----------



## JB0704

mtnwoman said:


> I have a very good male friend who is gay. He was molested as a child by a family member.  He's never been with a woman, and I've talked to him about trying it and all the other stuff that goes along with it. I'm a little bit embarrassed to say this but he says to his boy friends that 'that' is an exit not an entry, so there's part of it he doesn't allow. I feel he wouldn't be gay if that hadn't been his first sexual experience. I told him, well you have the right idea, just with the wrong sex, try a woman....I'm blushing for typing that. He doesn't think he was born that way, he thinks he developed it as a young boy.



I have one gay friend who says she was born that way, or "nature."  My Christian gay friend believes it is the result of a total lack of a father figure and the existence of a domineering mother....so he is a case of "nurture."

I honestly believe some are born with it, and others are a product of their environment.


----------



## ALLBEEF

To the OP.....IMHO....one cannot be living a good moral lifestyle and be participating in homosexual relations. I understand what you are saying by them being moral.....maybe a better word is monogamous???
Don't hate the person...hate the sin. I think it's our responsibility as Christians to help others overcome their sins.....in turn they might be able to help us with one of ours.
Just a thought.....not here to agree or disagree with anyone.


----------



## BT Charlie

If I'm honest, I admit that I sin. X-Ray plank vision doesn't help my own sin, and sure hasn't led to loving conversations at any wells I've been around.  I really appreciate Ronnie's clarity on loving unbelievers. 

I am now rassling with church or individual response to believers who also say gay is a beautiful thing.  Guessing this is a contextual source for the perception that Christians hate gays.  If I say I don't sin, the truth is not in me. If I say my sin is a beautiful thing, and it bears fruit in my life because I'm loving and nice, and the world organizes around my plight and demands that the church honor my feelings, well then up is down in the mad house.  Truth exists regardless of any perception of it. Truth requires no political or popular approval.  The world has outlawed truth under penalty of death, but it hasn't changed any eternal thing.


----------



## ALLBEEF

hobbs27 said:


> So just because the homosexual lusts after the flesh of their own kind it does not mean they have to act on it, and I believe our Lord is strong enough to take that lust away from them if they pray for His help in doing so.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Just like a straight man "struggles" with "lust and fornication," a gay man struggles with homosexuality. Who is better?



The one who acknowledges the sin and truly "struggles" with it.  The one who does not acknowledge the sin does not "struggle" with anything.


----------



## ALLBEEF

BT Charlie said:


> If I'm honest, I admit that I sin. X-Ray plank vision doesn't help my own sin, and sure hasn't led to loving conversations at any wells I've been around.  I really appreciate Ronnie's clarity on loving unbelievers.
> 
> I am now rassling with church or individual response to believers who also say gay is a beautiful thing.  Guessing this is a contextual source for the perception that Christians hate gays.  If I say I don't sin, the truth is not in me. If I say my sin is a beautiful thing, and it bears fruit in my life because I'm loving and nice, and the world organizes around my plight and demands that the church honor my feelings, well then up is down in the mad house.  Truth exists regardless of any perception of it. Truth requires no political or popular approval.  The world has outlawed truth under penalty of death, but it hasn't changed any eternal thing.




Can I get an AMEN!


----------



## JB0704

BT Charlie said:


> If I'm honest, I admit that I sin. X-Ray plank vision doesn't help my own sin, and sure hasn't led to loving conversations at any wells I've been around.  I really appreciate Ronnie's clarity on loving unbelievers.
> 
> I am now rassling with church or individual response to believers who also say gay is a beautiful thing.  Guessing this is a contextual source for the perception that Christians hate gays.  If I say I don't sin, the truth is not in me. If I say my sin is a beautiful thing, and it bears fruit in my life because I'm loving and nice, and the world organizes around my plight and demands that the church honor my feelings, well then up is down in the mad house.  Truth exists regardless of any perception of it. Truth requires no political or popular approval.  The world has outlawed truth under penalty of death, but it hasn't changed any eternal thing.



Excellent post!!

I think the problem is that most see it as one or the other.  That you either proclaim against gayness from the mountaintops, or you are accepting of their choices.

I think a lot of the woman at the well, and how Jesus talked to her.  In my life, I have more often been the "sinner" in the scenario, so I appreciate the compassion Jesus showed in that moment.  Then, I consider that we are to "do unto others....."

I am not perfect.  Would I rather somebody go down and support Chik-fil-a in protest of me, or would I rather sit down and have a drink and discuss things, like Jesus did with the woman at the well.  The answer, to me anyway, is obvious.

So that's what I try to do with my gay friends.  I don't have to change what I believe.  And I don't have to shout from the mountaintops about their sin, I don't want anybody shouting at me.  It's ok to be a friend, and have a drink, and discuss the topic at hand.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> The one who acknowledges the sin and truly "struggles" with it.  The one who does not acknowledge the sin does not "struggle" with anything.



YEs, but that is not the scenario I asked about.

They both struggle.....who is better?

Why is one allowed in church and the other run out until they are "fixed?"  Let's be honest here, we don't run men out of church who "struggle" with lust.  Many churches have programs to help folks with porn problems, etc.  The folks who "stumble" are not told to leave until they got it all out of their system.  So, why can't we give the same grace to a man, or woman, who "stumbles" with being gay?


----------



## WELLS8230

i'll just stick with the adam and eve story.


----------



## Huntinfool

JB,

I mean this....you are the single most unlucky Christian I've ever met.  You seem to have stepped foot in every single one of the worst churches on the face of the planet.

I've never experienced nor seen a church "run" a homosexual out for being homosexual.  What I have seen is churches confront homosexuals who claim that God is ok with it and that the church should be as well.  Then, typically, they leave.

As I see it, Christians can 'judge' other believers on one of two things....fruit and actions/behavior.  The two are closely tied.  When one of those two things is seen to be 'out of whack', we are called to lovingly confront our brother.  It is very difficult to 'see' lust.  But if a member of our church were known to be deeply set in pornography, he would be subject to the same level of discipline as an open homosexual.  The difference is, the homosexual is typically open about it.  The man who is looking at porn in the dark is not.  

It is not a matter of a double standard.  We can only see what we can see.  When sin comes to light in the body and among believers it should be addressed.  The Bible is very clear about that.

I understand that almost every church you've ever been in acted contrary to this.  I'll just keep encouraging you....keep looking.  You'll eventually run into a church that is decent.  Your odds get better with each den of vipers you walk out of.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> JB,
> 
> I mean this....you are the single most unlucky Christian I've ever met.  You seem to have stepped foot in every single one of the worst churches on the face of the planet.
> 
> I've never experienced nor seen a church "run" a homosexual out for being homosexual.  What I have seen is churches confront homosexuals who claim that God is ok with it and that the church should be as well.  Then, typically, they leave.
> 
> As I see it, Christians can 'judge' other believers on one of two things....fruit and actions/behavior.  The two are closely tied.  When one of those two things is seen to be 'out of whack', we are called to lovingly confront our brother.  It is very difficult to 'see' lust.  But if a member of our church were known to be deeply set in pornography, he would be subject to the same level of discipline as an open homosexual.  The difference is, the homosexual is typically open about it.  The man who is looking at porn in the dark is not.
> 
> It is not a matter of a double standard.  We can only see what we can see.  When sin comes to light in the body and among believers it should be addressed.  The Bible is very clear about that.
> 
> I understand that almost every church you've ever been in acted contrary to this.  I'll just keep encouraging you....keep looking.  You'll eventually run into a church that is decent.  Your odds get better with each den of vipers you walk out of.



Huntinfool, I am going to assume you are sincere, and disregard the sarcasm I detect, as I have been wrong on that in the past.  But, can I ask you how many times in your life you have proclaimed a "firm stand" against lust?  Fornication? Adultery?  Bigotry?  Hate? etc.....

It seems the "firm stands" are typically against those who are different from us.  Now, if that is not you, I understand, but that seems to be the trend I have seen.  And, as a side note, most of the recent churches I have visited trend to the liberal side.....but all would go buy their chicken sandwiches in opposition to the gays.

When I was a kid, and as an adult, I have heard gayness mocked from the pulpit.  Here is an example I remember from when I was a kid and my parent's took me to a "heck, fire, brimstone" church......

Preacher:  





> Boy, let me tell 'ya.....when I was a young'un, if'n some feller came around, wearing lipstick, and talkin' like a sissy...we'd a whooped 'em!



Now, I have never heard violence threatened to a man with a porn problem.  I have heard preachers admit to past porn problems, and to have a "heart for men who struggle" with porn.  But, I have never seen a Christian effort to extend love, and teach grace, to a person with a "gay problem."

Maybe I am unlucky, or, maybe I am willing to call 'em like I see 'em where others are more than happy to bury their head in the sand.  Seems that folks are more than willing to "stand firm" against "sin," exxcept in the church.....where we must "love the bride" regardless of what she does.


----------



## JB0704

I thought of another way to clarify my thoughts on Christians and their attitude towards gay folks....and this is my personal experience and I hope you guys have very different stories....

I grew up in a fundamentalist church(s).   I, because of my upbringing, hated gay folks.  I was taught they were "demon possessed" and an "abomination."  I was not taught thier "sin was an abomination," I was taught THEY were an abomination.

Then, as an adult, I questioned many things, and because of that, I learned to realize that I, and all the folks I had encountered who thought the gays were demon posessed, were no better than them.  I learned about how Jesus treated "sinners."  But....I learned this on my own, outiside of Christian circles where they all talk nice publicly, but privately they still like to call folks an "abomination."

So, when I paint with a broad brush, please understand that it is not via stereotypes, but rather a very personal experience.


----------



## Huntinfool

For a long time, I didn't take a firm stand against much of anything.  

I have a single firm stand at this point (in regard to sin) and that is against sin.  Let's be clear though...we talked about this before...I've seen a bunch of posts in this thread essentially saying that one sin is no worse than another.

From an eternal perspective, sin is sin.  But there are degrees of sin and they will be judged differently according to their 'rank'.  I suppose you could make the argument that we, as believers, need to be concerned with is the eternal and so, from that perspective, one sin is no worse than another.

I'll give you this.  Human nature is to try to justify the wrong that we are doing and see how bad the sins of others are.  That is a heart condition.  I firmly believer that, as we grow closer to God and start to reveal that imprint of an image that he put on us, we will see our own sin for what it is.

All you are really saying is that there are still Pharisees in the modern day church.  That's not a surprise to me.  What I think you're missing is that there are also a WHOLE BUNCH of saints and I can't figure out why none of the churches you visit seem to have any that lead the way.

Oh, BTW....not sarcasm you detected.  Just a bit of frustration.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I'll give you this.  Human nature is to try to justify the wrong that we are doing and see how bad the sins of others are.  That is a heart condition.  I firmly believer that, as we grow closer to God and start to reveal that imprint of an image that he put on us, we will see our own sin for what it is.



I agree with this.



Huntinfool said:


> All you are really saying is that there are still Pharisees in the modern day church.  That's not a surprise to me.  What I think you're missing is that there are also a WHOLE BUNCH of saints and I can't figure out why none of the churches you visit seem to have any that lead the way.



Consider this, when we are discussing church, the tendency is for folks to learn to "overlook the wrong to see the right."  But, we do not give that grace to anybody but the church.

I know some real good folks, HF.  Many good Christians. My problem is more the institutionalized "wrongs" than the individuals.  But, it seems the individuals are more focused on buying themselves a chicken sandwich than cleaning up the mess in their own house (or church).

I once had a preacher say "you gotta love the church and all it's warts."  Would he say the same thing about a gay man?  I dunno.  But it seems the double standard is that we should be ok with the things that are wrong in the church, and stand against the things that are wrong in the world.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> WE have been through this before, you and I.  You up for going down that road again?   I will if you insist.......
> 
> I have made my share of mistakes (different than gayness, but mistakes none-the-less), and I am no better than anybody else.



  No...we don't need to go down that road again.  Just want to make sure you remember that the Bible calls us to be discerning. 



JB0704 said:


> Man, I am burned out on trying.....took a hiatus from my short lived search.  The cynical "JB" was starting to get a little too loud while I was trying to focus on which church to visit.



Sorry to hear that....but I understand the position.  Been there before.



JB0704 said:


> My gay Christian friend is sad.  It's because if he follows his heart (nature), he is tormented by his conscience (faith).  If he follows his conscience (faith), he is tormented by his heart (nature).
> 
> He is destined to either be a very lonely man, or to live life as a "sinner." That is not an enviable position.  And I think of him every time somebody picks on gay people.  I know his heart, have spent countless hours talking to him about his dillemma and I know he absolutely wants to do the right thing.  But, he has the same problem Paul had......
> 
> 
> 
> Understanding that a man as great as Paul struggled with his nature helps me avoid throwning stones.



Aren't we all tormented by our nature?  I know I am.  We all have a sin nature that we battle each and every day.  But...we have Christ to help us conquer it.



JB0704 said:


> I once had a preacher say "you gotta love the church and all it's warts."



We have to love the warts....but we have to deal with them too.

Again, I agree that most liberal churches have the slogan, open hearts, open minds, open doors.  No judging allowed.  No confrontation....just love.  Problem is, that isn't Biblical.  As it has been said before, the Bible should be preached, all of it.  I've never seen a person living in sin be able to consistently hear the Word of God be preached.  They either leave or they repent.


----------



## centerpin fan

rjcruiser said:


> ... most liberal churches have the slogan, open hearts, open minds, open doors....



... and empty pews:

_"... this transformation was done to make the church "relevant and vital." Instead, people stopped going because, as Douthat points out, there was nothing these churches offered that they "[couldn't] already get from a purely secular liberalism."_

http://www.christianpost.com/news/a-mainline-collapse-the-twilight-of-liberal-christianity-78685/


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Aren't we all tormented by our nature?  I know I am.  We all have a sin nature that we battle each and every day.  But...we have Christ to help us conquer it.



Yes.  But it seems the gay folks struggle is more atrocious than my struggle.  And, it seems the gay folks I know have a very difficult time "changing."  I knew a guy who almost got married, but had to call it off about a month before the wedding day because he just didn't believe he could be the husband she deserved while struggling with this.  He was certain she was "the one," but for some reason, he couldn't stop thinking about dudes.



rjcruiser said:


> Again, I agree that most liberal churches have the slogan, open hearts, open minds, open doors.  No judging allowed.  No confrontation....just love.  Problem is, that isn't Biblical.  As it has been said before, the Bible should be preached, all of it.  I've never seen a person living in sin be able to consistently hear the Word of God be preached.  They either leave or they repent.



The confrontation, in my experience, can be "non-confrontational" in a sense.  I know I am more likely to listen to somebody talking with me over a beer than somebody yelling at me from a pulpit.  I agree with you, but I sometimes scratch my head over tactics.

But, it also seems the church is very defensive when the finger gets pointed inward.....but they (generally) are very comfortable pointing it outward.


----------



## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> ... and empty pews:



....and perhaps that's what's required to force a change.  Hey man, maybe I'm on the right path with my "protest" after all


----------



## Huntinfool

> Consider this, when we are discussing church, the tendency is for folks to learn to "overlook the wrong to see the right." But, we do not give that grace to anybody but the church.



I'm not sure I agree with that.

My experience has been that we mourn the wrong and rejoice in the right.  But never do we simply accept ongoing and intentional sin.

Let me say this.  I'll admit that I am more naturally repulsed by homosexuality than I am by a straight man lusting after a woman.  Why?  Because I can identify with the man who lusts.  I cannot identify with anyone ever wanting to be with someone of the same sex.  I would venture to guess that's the case for most people in general...not just Christians.  

If I'm honest, I would react with less shock if my buddy told me he struggled with lust than if he told me he struggled with sexual feelings for men.  So I get what you're saying.  However, I can't say I've ever heard someone in the church claim "I'm a luster...and God is ok with that...it's just how me made me and he loves me just like you!".  That is the problem that many Christians have right now.  There is a concentrated and DIRECT effort to try to infiltrate the Church with the belief that homosexuality is 'normal' or 'part of how God designed some people'.  That is the main issue that we deal with at this point.

We are repulsed by things we cannot fathom.  I am equally as repulsed by murder...because that is something I cannot fathom ever doing.  I may shock you by saying this....I am willing to bet my house that more Christian marriages have been negatively affected by heterosexual lust than by whether homosexuals are 'married'.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> The confrontation, in my experience, can be "non-confrontational" in a sense.  I know I am more likely to listen to somebody talking with me over a beer than somebody yelling at me from a pulpit.  I agree with you, but I sometimes scratch my head over tactics.



Well, there is a Biblical way and an unBiblical way.  Not sure the helfire and darnation messages are done in love.



			
				JB0704 said:
			
		

> But, it also seems the church is very defensive when the finger gets pointed inward.....but they (generally) are very comfortable pointing it outward.



It is not only the church, that is everyone.  The church just gets singled out because it allows the offender to justify their wrongdoing.



JB0704 said:


> ....and perhaps that's what's required to force a change.  Hey man, maybe I'm on the right path with my "protest" after all



Two wrongs don't make a right


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> There is a concentrated and DIRECT effort to try to infiltrate the Church with the belief that homosexuality is 'normal' or 'part of how God designed some people'.



Exactly.  It's a virus that is killing the churches it has infected.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> My experience has been that we mourn the wrong and rejoice in the right.  But never do we simply accept ongoing and intentional sin.
> 
> Let me say this.  I'll admit that I am more naturally repulsed by homosexuality than I am by a straight man lusting after a woman.  Why?  Because I can identify with the man who lusts.  I cannot identify with anyone ever wanting to be with someone of the same sex.  I would venture to guess that's the case for most people in general...not just Christians.
> 
> If I'm honest, I would react with less shock if my buddy told me he struggled with lust than if he told me he struggled with sexual feelings for men.  So I get what you're saying.  However, I can't say I've ever heard someone in the church claim "I'm a luster...and God is ok with that...it's just how me made me and he loves me just like you!".  That is the problem that many Christians have right now.  There is a concentrated and DIRECT effort to try to infiltrate the Church with the belief that homosexuality is 'normal' or 'part of how God designed some people'.  That is the main issue that we deal with at this point.
> 
> We are repulsed by things we cannot fathom.  I am equally as repulsed by murder...because that is something I cannot fathom ever doing.  I may shock you by saying this....I am willing to bet my house that more Christian marriages have been negatively affected by heterosexual lust than by whether homosexuals are 'married'.



I agree with your point here.  My thoughts towards the church are generally in the realm of what is done in the name of "unity."  Often, that term is used to force conformity with the "head pastor," or leave.  It is typically not relevant to any specific sin.

I understand "unity," I vehemently disagree with the modern application of the term.  Hope that clarifies that.

Where I think we differ is the role we see Christians playing in this.  My gay friends know what I believe, and when it comes up, we discuss it.  I don't throw stones at them because I know I sure as heck have had some planks in my eyes.....though I have never been gay, and I certainly don't understand it, I have had numerous areas where I was too weak, or too unwilling, to do that which I know was right.  So I understand how a person can continue to struggle with anything.  And the people who helped me the most are the ones who were willing to sit down and discuss things with me over beer, or fishing, or hunting.  The people who hindered me the most were the ones who condemned me.


----------



## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> Exactly.  It's a virus that is killing the churches it has infected.



There are plenty of viruses in the church.  Seems this is the only one many churches are concerned with.


----------



## Huntinfool

There you go pulling that giant brush out again...


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> There you go pulling that giant brush out again...



I used the word "many" for a reason


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> The bigger question that this thread has not addressed is this...
> 
> 
> If you love chicken and you love homosexuals...do you love homosexual chickens?  Would you eat one on a bun with a couple of pickles and some waffles fries?
> 
> That's really the bigger issue at hand.  What do we do with homosexual chickens!!!!!  I say they are an abomination and will ONLY eat straight chickens.





But, HF, you should know that the gayness is a "human condition."


----------



## Ronnie T

There are four ideals at work in this subject.

1.  God's word.   2.  The church.  3.  The homosexual.  4.  The vocal gay platform.

God's word is God's word.  The church must always stay true to God's word.

Every person who accepts Christ is required to enter a process of REPENTENCE.
And therein lies the great wall.
A new Christian will never consciously repent of something until they are able to admit that it is against God's will.
Therein lies the problem.......  Who to believe.

The power of God will always help the person who's involved in repentence.  I don't believe God will change an unrepentant heart.
And again, therein lies the problem.


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> If you love chicken and you love homosexuals...do you love homosexual chickens?



You mean like "flaming"?


----------



## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> There are four ideals at work in this subject.
> 
> 1.  God's word.   2.  The church.  3.  The homosexual.  4.  The vocal gay platform.
> 
> God's word is God's word.  The church must always stay true to God's word.
> 
> Every person who accepts Christ is required to enter a process of REPENTENCE.
> And therein lies the great wall.
> A new Christian will never consciously repent of something until they are able to admit that it is against God's will.
> Therein lies the problem.......  Who to believe.
> 
> The power of God will always help the person who's involved in repentence.  I don't believe God will change an unrepentant heart.
> And again, therein lies the problem.



Good post.  I also see that there seems to be a mingling of the issue here.  You clarified it well.


----------



## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> There are plenty of viruses in the church.  Seems this is the only one many churches are concerned with.




... and here's why:




Huntinfool said:


> There is a concentrated and DIRECT effort to try to infiltrate the Church with the belief that homosexuality is 'normal' or 'part of how God designed some people'.


----------



## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> ... and here's why:



Perhaps.  But the people who are trying so hard to keep out the gays are overlooking all sorts of nonsense "in house."  And, isn't the first principle of judgement to look inward first.....clear the planks?


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

The following comments are for Christians struggling with sin, not necessarily just the one discussed in this post.  But I really feel a heart tug to say these things as this post brought these things to the forefront of my thoughts.

I don't care what sin you are struggling with. Maybe its one that seems so big or that you've justified because it feels so good and comfortable to you. Maybe its a 'little' one that seem so small that we often convince ourselves to ignore them.  You can turn them all over to God.  Christ is waiting for you to do so. And it dawns on me that those who say they cannot turn away from a sin, have not trusted the Lord who bought them. They are a fan of His Grace because it sounds so good and they know how much they need it, but His Truth they struggle with because it causes them to make a choice and often they truly enjoy the sin that has snared them.  That dividing line is painful and I do understand. You turn from a fan of God to a follower of God when you accept His Grace and His Truth for Grace and Truth must exist together. Then, and only then, He can be your Master and you can become a slave to His righteousness, that is living for no one else but Him. Effective Christians (Wheat) get there, the rest could quite possibly be chaff in the wind.

I was once a slave to alcohol, but I came to the place that God spoke to my heart, and said 'You have to decide if you want Me more or the bottle more'.  Well, I decided, but it was God who gave me the Power to accomplish it.  Without that decision, I would have been turned over to my own sin.  But with it, I began to understand how powerful God really is!  So, do you believe in His Power or not!!!

I truly believe everyone who desires God's grace will also accept His Truth. And if you are struggling with something, give it to Him.  I've included a scripture for you to pray if you are serious.  God Bless!

Jeremiah 10
23  I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself,
    that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.
24  Correct me, O Lord, but in justice;
    not in your anger, lest you bring me to nothing.


----------



## Ta-ton-ka chips

Wow 2 pages of drivel, and I read every post.

All I know is this.

If all you righteous folks out there expended your energy with more self reflection, the world would become a better place. If you keep your nose out of others' business, it will never become disjointed.

I am not my brothers' keeper as I'm extremely busy trying to keep myself. Why does anyone care what goes on in someone else's bedroom? Your time would be better spent reviewing your retirement plans.


----------



## Huntinfool

Thank you for your input Ta-ton-ka.


I agree...



> If you keep your nose out of others' business, it will never become disjointed.



BTW....this entire area of the forums is dedicated to our "retirement plans".


----------



## centerpin fan

Ta-ton-ka chips said:


> Wow 2 pages of drivel, and I read every post.



We're always on the lookout for new "drivel talent".  You obviously have a lot of potential.  Thanks for your contribution.


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> BTW....this entire area of the forums is dedicated to our "retirement plans".



Good one!


----------



## Ronnie T

formula1 said:


> The following comments are for Christians struggling with sin, not necessarily just the one discussed in this post.  But I really feel a heart tug to say these things as this post brought these things to the forefront of my thoughts.
> 
> I don't care what sin you are struggling with. Maybe its one that seems so big or that you've justified because it feels so good and comfortable to you. Maybe its a 'little' one that seem so small that we often convince ourselves to ignore them.  You can turn them all over to God.  Christ is waiting for you to do so. And it dawns on me that those who say they cannot turn away from a sin, have not trusted the Lord who bought them. They are a fan of His Grace because it sounds so good and they know how much they need it, but His Truth they struggle with because it causes them to make a choice and often they truly enjoy the sin that has snared them.  That dividing line is painful and I do understand. You turn from a fan of God to a follower of God when you accept His Grace and His Truth for Grace and Truth must exist together. Then, and only then, He can be your Master and you can become a slave to His righteousness, that is living for no one else but Him. Effective Christians (Wheat) get there, the rest could quite possibly be chaff in the wind.
> 
> I was once a slave to alcohol, but I came to the place that God spoke to my heart, and said 'You have to decide if you want Me more or the bottle more'.  Well, I decided, but it was God who gave me the Power to accomplish it.  Without that decision, I would have been turned over to my own sin.  But with it, I began to understand how powerful God really is!  So, do you believe in His Power or not!!!
> 
> I truly believe everyone who desires God's grace will also accept His Truth. And if you are struggling with something, give it to Him.  I've included a scripture for you to pray if you are serious.  God Bless!
> 
> Jeremiah 10
> 23  I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself,
> that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.
> 24  Correct me, O Lord, but in justice;
> not in your anger, lest you bring me to nothing.



That's it.

.


----------



## BT Charlie

Formula1, many thanks for a great post.  That has helped a bunch today.

Went through a video series called "Fight Club," by Andy Stanley's church (sorry I don't know it's name, but if you google it I'm sure you can find this series.) Any way, it deals with how we withdraw but really need to engage in the struggles of relationship.  May be of some help to those struggling here. Just a thought.  It speaks quite a bit to reconciliation, and distinguishes that from conflict resolution, among believers.   

We are called to love one another, and anyone who hates his brother is not of Christ.  I think other passages referenced in this thread rule out sticking one's head in the sand, turning a blind eye, and saying nothing -- regardless of nasal bone breakage that may result from active engagement in the dialogue.  I hear some here expressing mercy and anguish for their openly and privately sinning friends, which honors our duty to love one another.  I also get and to an extent agree with the idea that we fail to love one another if we do not point out, clearly, lovingly, a brother's error and the Truth.  So one may conclude that being tolerant of a brother's sin, or being respectful of his privacy, or minding one's own business, is a rather cruel and unloving thing to do in certain circumstances.  Never really understood that....

Can anybody confirm the correct construction of (Jesus'?) question, Am I my brother's keeper as applied to this idea of whether we in love are called to engage gay believers or other openly sinning believers on their conduct?


----------



## rjcruiser

Ta-ton-ka chips said:


> Why does anyone care what goes on in someone else's bedroom?



When it comes to a non-Christian...we've got no business except to preach the gospel to them.  (Matt 28:19-20)

When it comes to Christians....we're to confront in love.  (Matt 18)



Huntinfool said:


> BTW....this entire area of the forums is dedicated to our "retirement plans".


----------



## Da Possum

Ta-ton-ka chips said:


> Wow 2 pages of drivel, and I read every post.
> 
> All I know is this.
> 
> If all you righteous folks out there expended your energy with more self reflection, the world would become a better place. If you keep your nose out of others' business, it will never become disjointed.
> 
> I am not my brothers' keeper as I'm extremely busy trying to keep myself. Why does anyone care what goes on in someone else's bedroom? Your time would be better spent reviewing your retirement plans.



Best post yet!!!


----------



## centerpin fan

These gay threads really bring out the new posters.  I wonder what Freud would say about that.


----------



## Huntinfool

All I can say is what if God had "kept his nose out of others' business" and then what if Jesus had done the same.  I thank him every day for shoving his nose in my business.

Possibly the most loving thing you can do for a person is get involved in their business when you know what they are doing is wrong.  I suppose, if your son or daughter was a drug addict, you'd just "keep your nose out of others' business"?  How 'bout if your daughter decided she wanted to be a prostitute?  I mean, there's no reason for you get involved in what people want to do in their bedroom is there?

There are certain topics that ALWAYS prompt drive by posters by folks who never come in here otherwise....homosexuality is one of them.  I suppose that could be a reflection of the country at large, huh?

Don't bother me with religion or that Jesus stuff...until you hit on a topic that I'm personally interested in.  Then I'll tell you about how all the Bible says is "just love people dude".


----------



## centerpin fan

Ta-ton-ka chips said:


> Why does anyone care what goes on in someone else's bedroom?



If they'd just keep it in their bedrooms, I'd be happy to ignore it.  Instead, they shove it in our faces and demand society's stamp of approval.

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-08-03/...supporters-gay-rights-activists-gay-marriages


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> There are certain topics that ALWAYS prompt drive by posters by folks who never come in here otherwise....homosexuality is one of them.  I suppose that could be a reflection of the country at large, huh?
> 
> Don't bother me with religion or that Jesus stuff...until you hit on a topic that I'm personally interested in.  Then I'll tell you about how all the Bible says is "just love people dude".



Yep.  Drinking is the other big one that comes to mind.  Freemasonry would be another.


----------



## rjcruiser

Judge not lest ye be judged.


----------



## centerpin fan

rjcruiser said:


> Judge not lest ye be judged.



"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake ..."


----------



## hobbs27

JB0704 said:


> I am not perfect.  Would I rather somebody go down and support Chik-fil-a in protest of me, or would I rather sit down and have a drink and discuss things, like Jesus did with the woman at the well.  The answer, to me anyway, is obvious.



Ive been very busy lately, and just getting bits and pieces of the news, but were people protesting gays by supporting chik fil a? 
 I was under the impression that folks were supporting chik fil a because they were attcked by two liberal mayors and a gay organization because the CEO or CFO made a statement that he supported the biblical definition of marriage being of one man and one woman.
 I think it was a slap at the current presidential administration also.We don't need Government to reinterpret the word of God to suit todays society.
 I certainly could be wrong, but I sure didn't see any hateful protest signs or hear of any anti- gay violence.


----------



## Huntinfool

you're not wrong


----------



## rjcruiser

centerpin fan said:


> "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake ..."



I know...I was just showing an example of the most misquoted scripture in the Bible Belt.

I think this is the way most churched people remember Matthew 7

“ Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4  Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.


----------



## JB0704

hobbs27 said:


> I was under the impression that folks were supporting chik fil a because they were attcked by two liberal mayors and a gay organization because the CEO or CFO made a statement that he supported the biblical definition of marriage being of one man and one woman.
> I think it was a slap at the current presidential administration also.We don't need Government to reinterpret the word of God to suit todays society.
> I certainly could be wrong, but I sure didn't see and hateful protest signs or hear of any anti- gay violence.



I wonder if he had said he was against hetero fornication, and as such got a negative reaction from mayors, if the support would have been the same?

I just don't see it.


----------



## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake ..."





is that controversial?


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Judge not lest ye be judged.



That verse is both over and under interpretted......it doesn't mean "don't judge" but it doesn't mean "judge away" either.  I believe it is a warning to those who might think they are worthy, or better.


----------



## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> is that controversial?



No, it's just one Bible verse that almost any unbeliever can quote.


----------



## Ta-ton-ka chips

Huntinfool said:


> All I can say is what if God had "kept his nose out of others' business" and then what if Jesus had done the same.  I thank him every day for shoving his nose in my business.
> 
> Possibly the most loving thing you can do for a person is get involved in their business when you know what they are doing is wrong.  I suppose, if your son or daughter was a drug addict, you'd just "keep your nose out of others' business"?  How 'bout if your daughter decided she wanted to be a prostitute?  I mean, there's no reason for you get involved in what people want to do in their bedroom is there?
> 
> There are certain topics that ALWAYS prompt drive by posters by folks who never come in here otherwise....homosexuality is one of them.  I suppose that could be a reflection of the country at large, huh?
> 
> Don't bother me with religion or that Jesus stuff...until you hit on a topic that I'm personally interested in.  Then I'll tell you about how all the Bible says is "just love people dude".



Do you really need an explanation as to how to properly raise your own children? I doubt it.

Take a minute to reflect on the posts contained in this thread. There is not even one objective post on here. No matter how hard we try, it is impossible to be objective. The Bible must be read and interpreted and so, if you are a believer to any degree, you have a slanted opinion in this debate. If your friend is gay you have a different "objective opinion". If you really try hard to be objective, and are scientifically inclined, you might even believe that there has been discovered a so called "gay gene" and that people are born that way and have no choice in the matter (like Paul, in the Bible).

 I think that maybe if some people backed off the judgement and Bible thumping, maybe others would stop marching and kissing in public. 

No, that would never work.


----------



## centerpin fan

Ta-ton-ka chips said:


> I think that maybe if some people backed off the judgement and Bible thumping, maybe others would stop marching and kissing in public.



The kissing in public had nothing to do with Bible thumping.  That came about because Dan Cathy dared to exercise his 1A rights and state publicly that he supported traditional marriage (as did President Obama up until a couple of months ago.)


----------



## Huntinfool

> Do you really need an explanation as to how to properly raise your own children? I doubt it.



Yes, I do.  It's called the Bible (there I go thumping that thing again).




> Take a minute to reflect on the posts contained in this thread. There is not even one objective post on here. No matter how hard we try, it is impossible to be objective. The Bible must be read and interpreted and so, if you are a believer to any degree, you have a slanted opinion in this debate. If your friend is gay you have a different "objective opinion".



I don't recall anyone in here claiming they were objective.  Do you?  God's Word affects every opinion I've given here...very subjective.  Why is 'objective' somehow better?



> If you really try hard to be objective, and are scientifically inclined, you might even believe that there has been discovered a so called "gay gene" and that people are born that way and have no choice in the matter (like Paul, in the Bible).





Ok, now we're clear on where you're coming from.  I got ya...Paul was gay.  That...is...awesome.  Paul had the gay gene.




> I think that maybe if some people backed off the judgement and Bible thumping, maybe others would stop marching and kissing in public.



"Bible thumping" = don't you DARE tell me I'm doing something wrong...you don't know me!


If a Christian expresses an opinion that is biblically based, it's Bible thumping.  If a non-believer expresses an opposite opinion on the same issue it's open minded and objective.  No double standard there whatsoever, huh?


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> "Bible thumping" = don't you DARE tell me I'm doing something wrong...you don't know me!
> 
> 
> If a Christian expresses an opinion that is biblically based, it's Bible thumping.  If a non-believer expresses an opposite opinion on the same issue it's open minded and objective.  No double standard there whatsoever, huh?




HF is on a roll.


----------



## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> HF is on a roll.



Complete with amen choir


----------



## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> Complete with amen choir



Some things deserve an "amen".


----------



## Spotlite

Ta-ton-ka chips said:


> Wow 2 pages of drivel, and I read every post.
> 
> All I know is this.
> 
> If all you righteous folks out there expended your energy with more self reflection, the world would become a better place. If you keep your nose out of others' business,


 I think that's the problem. We don't care and they want us to. How many protest did we hear about on Tuesday at Starbucks?


----------



## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> Some things deserve an "amen".



That's "subjective" as well 

I followed what HF was saying.....but, I couldn't tell if it was a joke or if he was mad, though.  I guess you cleared it up.


----------



## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> That's "subjective" as well
> 
> I followed what HF was saying.....but, I couldn't tell if it was a joke or if he was mad, though.  I guess you cleared it up.



You know that sarcasm you were looking for in an earlier post?


You found it....

I'm just honestly really glad I came in here today.  I learned that Paul had the gay gene.  I thought I knew a lot about biblical heros.  I guess you just never know when somebody will drop a nugget like that on ya.

Did y'all know that, apparently Jesus had the gay gene too?  He loved John in a very special way.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/apr/20/was-jesus-gay-probably


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> You know that sarcasm you were looking for in an earlier post?
> 
> 
> You found it....



I can't tell sometimes......it looks blatantly obvious in some of your posts that you say it isn't there, and I don't see it in others.  It's the internets, and all, much is lost in translation (for me anyway).


----------



## JB0704

huntinfool said:
			
		

> I'm just honestly really glad I came in here today. I learned that Paul had the gay gene. I thought I knew a lot about biblical heros. I guess you just never know when somebody will drop a nugget like that on ya.



I think he is talking about the "thorn in the flesh" deal.  I have heard this theory before, but never found much to validate it.


----------



## Ta-ton-ka chips

centerpin fan said:


> HF is on a roll.




Yes he is


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> I'm just honestly really glad I came in here today.  I learned that Paul had the gay gene.  I thought I knew a lot about biblical heros.  I guess you just never know when somebody will drop a nugget like that on ya.





JB0704 said:


> I think he is talking about the "thorn in the flesh" deal.  I have heard this theory before, but never found much to validate it.



I have actually heard the "Paul was gay" argument before.  The actual quote was that Paul was a "self-loathing gay male".


----------



## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> but never found much to validate it.



...wonder if there could be a reason for that.  

I think, perhaps I should have noted that I've heard it many times as well....I just can't believe people are still using it.  That argument is more tired than Michael Moore's pizza delivery guy!


Ta-ton-ka....no harm no foul buddy.  At least we agree (based on your sig line) on the single biggest issue of THIS particular year!


----------



## stringmusic

Huntinfool said:


> ...wonder if there could be a reason for that.
> 
> I think, perhaps I should have noted that I've heard it many times as well....I just can't believe people are still using it.  *That argument is more tired than Michael Moore's pizza delivery guy!*
> 
> Ta-ton-ka....no harm no foul buddy.  At least we agree (based on your sig line) on the single biggest issue of THIS particular year!


----------



## Ta-ton-ka chips

Huntinfool said:


> You know that sarcasm you were looking for in an earlier post?
> 
> 
> You found it....
> 
> I'm just honestly really glad I came in here today.  I learned that Paul had the gay gene.  I thought I knew a lot about biblical heros.  I guess you just never know when somebody will drop a nugget like that on ya.
> 
> Did y'all know that, apparently Jesus had the gay gene too?  He loved John in a very special way.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/apr/20/was-jesus-gay-probably





JB0704 said:


> I think he is talking about the "thorn in the flesh" deal.  I have heard this theory before, but never found much to validate it.





centerpin fan said:


> I have actually heard the "Paul was gay" argument before.  The actual quote was that Paul was a "self-loathing gay male".



I'm no biblical scholar, I was raised Catholic.

Had no idea until today that Paul was gay, but it's probably the only info I've gleaned from this entire thread. Romans 7-15, I believe is what a previous poster quoted

I do believe it's important to be objective in life. Impossible to do, yet a positive and healthy way to live. I think it helps  to understand another's point of view whether you agree or not. Many on here are proud to not be objective. Maybe that's why we treat each other so badly and have had so many wars. 

Carry on with your Crusades...


----------



## dawg2

JB0704 said:


> .....
> 
> It seems the gayness is an "Easy target" for Christians because it is clearly against biblical teachings.  However, so is fornication.
> 
> ....



I wonder if CFA founder said something about straight couples living together (unmarried), would it make the front pages.  Would it be such a big deal...


----------



## centerpin fan

dawg2 said:


> I wonder if CFA founder said something about straight couples living togetherm (unmarried), would it make the front pages.  Would it be such a big deal...



No way.


----------



## centerpin fan

*Just to clarify ...*



Ta-ton-ka chips said:


> Had no idea until today that Paul was gay, but it's probably the only info I've gleaned from this entire thread. Romans 7-15, I believe is what a previous poster quoted



I think it's ridiculous.


----------



## JB0704

dawg2 said:


> I wonder if CFA founder said something about straight couples living togetherm (unmarried), would it make the front pages.  Would it be such a big deal...



I doubt it, and that has kind-of been my point in this thread....we seem very selective in what we stand against.


----------



## Artfuldodger

dawg2 said:


> I wonder if CFA founder said something about straight couples living togetherm (unmarried), would it make the front pages.  Would it be such a big deal...



I think most churches have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy when couples aren't married. Just don't ask if they live together. Divorce is no big deal anymore either.


----------



## Pale Rider

Wow. Didn't know I would stir up this much pudding.

And to answer the question, yes, I do love homosexual chickens. But only if they are fried.


----------



## JB0704

Pale Rider said:


> Wow. Didn't know I would stir up this much pudding.




Yea man, any time the subject line includes anything about gays it's gonna be a fun one in here.


----------



## centerpin fan

Pale Rider said:


> Wow. Didn't know I would stir up this much pudding.



For an encore, start a thread titled:

"What Bible version is best for a gay Freemason?


----------



## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> For an encore, start a thread titled:
> 
> "What Bible version is best for a gay Freemason to use at the bar?



added one thing.


----------



## dawg2

JB0704 said:


> I doubt it, and that has kind-of been my point in this thread....we seem very selective in what we stand against.



Is it the "we" that is making a big deal....or the media?

Jobs are down, economy is shaky, stock market is propped up with a tooth pick, we have been at war for over a decade...and everyone is focused on same sex marriage.

Somebody is wagging the dog.


----------



## JB0704

dawg2 said:


> Is it the "we" that is making a big deal....or the media?
> 
> Jobs are down, economy is shaky, stock market is propped up with a tooth pick, we have been at war for over a decade...and everyone is focused on same sex marriage.
> 
> Somebody is wagging the dog.



I agree that the sensational stories get the most coverage, and Christians always seem to be easy targets.  Particularly by the media, who love stories which can show hypocracy.

But, nobody was forced to stand in line and buy all that chicken.  To some extent, I think we (Christians) tend to play along......not all of us.  I certainly didn't waste my time for an overpriced sandwich.  But, a good many did.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> For an encore, start a thread titled:
> 
> "What Bible version is best for a gay Freemason?



Now you know we can't discuss bible versions!!!


----------



## Pale Rider

A deacon buddy of mine once told me that I was in for three surprises if I got to Heaven.

1. Surprised I'm there.

2. Surprised who is NOT there.

3. Surprised who IS there.


----------



## NoOne

A little short story for those who may think that homosexuality is ok.

http://www.jesuslovesme.org/fatherstxt.htm


----------



## ted_BSR

Skeester said:


> A little short story for those who may think that homosexuality is ok.
> 
> http://www.jesuslovesme.org/fatherstxt.htm



Wow. From the story linked above.

_..."If that's the way it is, then it is by your choice, not mine. If I raised you to believe that family relationship was an altar upon which every conviction must be sacrificed, I'm sorry. I am not wrong in believing there are some things more precious than earthly relationship. I am not wrong in believing there is a difference between opinions and convictions. The difference is never brought to light, until a man has to stand for what he believes. I stand tonight on the truth I believe. You can't have it both ways, Randy. I will not give you my blessing and fellowship, at the expense of my truth. I will not sacrifice my conscience to ease yours. Your willful choice has created an impassable gulf between us. I cannot be argued or shamed into accepting a shameful way of life. Right is still right and wrong is still wrong. As we part, I wish I could say, 'May God have mercy on you', but that is not possible. He has already poured His mercy and grace on you at Calvary. You have trampled the precious blood of Christ beneath your feet and counted the blood, that could have saved you, an unholy thing." 
...His hand still outstretched, Randy remained as if he were frozen in time. Time stood still for a few moments and the silence was unbearable. Dropping his hand, he turned his back and said over his shoulder, 
..."Good-bye, Dad. Happy Father's Day." 
...Without looking up, Larry said softly, 
..."Good-bye, whoever you are. Live your life as you have chosen, but you will live it without me and without God." _

And my opinion:

Sin is sin. It serves to separate us from God (no matter what type of sin it is). It is not our place to judge another person's sin, first and foremost, we should be mindful of our own (whether it is drink, or homosexuality, or lust, or false idols).

It is our place to speak out against sin according to what the Bible tells us. Flee from it. Do not associate with it, do not joke about it, and do not let it watch your children, for those actions promote it.
It is a dangerous endeavor to flirt with sin. Sin separates us from God.


----------



## Israel

JB0704 said:


> Perhaps.  But the people who are trying so hard to keep out the gays are overlooking all sorts of nonsense "in house."  And, isn't the first principle of judgement to look inward first.....clear the planks?



We navigate the unnavigable waters without Jesus at the helm.
Each of us know, if we have seen the Lord, the deep sting of regret and shame at our own behavior, either at things we have said, done, or entertained. We have been, hopefully, convicted at least at one time...to the depths of our soul that has brought about a repentance.
And we have received grace to put away sin and walk in newness of life by the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yet, it seems to me, this very present awareness of sin remains, perhaps as it should, I do not know.

We are a people in a terrible fix. To know to our toes the awfulness of disobedience, while striving to know the author of our faith in his perfect obedience. And, perhaps for me alone, it appears that in that striving, there comes an even greater conviction of sin, a greater knowledge of its particulars, its workings, its deviousness, its prevalence and ubiquity.

Sometimes it may seem all we see. It is so abounding in its boasting and parade of self glory, its open and seeming permanence of impunity by which it casts shame upon the Lord and in practice seems to effectively, unrelentingly, effectually...be suppressing ALL the truth of God in its unrighteousness. It can seem to be "winning."

We may even become faint. So faint in grace and fervor of love that it begins to taint our own hearts, the place where the Lord is to be set apart for sanctification.
And we know it is wrong.
All wrong.
And all we seem to see, is WRONG.
And we have lists of its terrible manifestations, even as abominations in the sight of God, and the whole of the yeasty loaf rising to blot out the light and life we may have once glimpsed may even lead us to despair.

Oh, God! Oh God!
And we flail. We may rail. And we may even come to the place where we are so hard of heart that we begin to approve of condemnation, so full of its taint upon our own hearts where the Lord is to be set apart to be sanctified.
Perhaps we may even forget...or even, God forbid, reverse the truth.
That the son of man came into the world to condemn it, not to save it.
We may inwardly begin to take delight in condemning (for the soul must have its daily bread), so lost in the iniquity abounding, we do not even know our own love has grown cold.
We may become terribly casual in our judgments, so convinced of a self righteousness we do not even see and cling to as "our life", and be so horribly committed to seeing the wrath of God appear from our now distorted perspective that we abandon in our own hands the surgical skill required for salvation, and instead in frustrations stab so blindly at hearts we were once called to, by the skillful handling of the word of God, sever from the tumor we now only see as inextricably joined, fused, to it, inseparable in any way. NO ONE can fix this!
And we do not even know we have cast away our own confidence.
I know that man.
Have lived with that man.
Have eaten the fruit that that man sows.
Thinking he is doing God's work, for what soul lives apart from service to its god?
That man delighted in the ease with which he saw others plain and even "textually" provable abominations. His delight even became the ease with which he could self congratulatingly, and with such seeming skillful dexterity point out every foible, fault, and peccadillo or heresy in anyone "out there".
Little did he know it was his own most grievous abomination within, a heart that had lifted itself up against the knowledge of God.
God is salvation.
I can only warn those who recognize any tendency of themselves to feel better, or who begin to delight inwardly at casting scorn upon others for what seems their most obvious and easily discernible degradations...beware.
But if you are numbered amongst those who weep at the sight of souls imprisoned and hard, this is not for you.
For you, I only have appreciation and gratefulness for having prayed for me.
Please, don't stop.


----------



## irishredneck

Only Gods judgement matters at the end of the day, so love them, treasure them as friends, lift them up and continue to pray for them. I hope they can be victorious sin & other areas of their life that are contradictory to the word of God and from that, have an amazing testimony.


----------



## BT Charlie

Israel said:


> We navigate the unnavigable waters without Jesus at the helm.
> Each of us know, if we have seen the Lord, the deep sting of regret and shame at our own behavior, either at things we have said, done, or entertained. We have been, hopefully, convicted at least at one time...to the depths of our soul that has brought about a repentance.
> And we have received grace to put away sin and walk in newness of life by the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> Yet, it seems to me, this very present awareness of sin remains, perhaps as it should, I do not know
> 
> We are a people in a terrible fix. To know to our toes the awfulness of disobedience, while striving to know the author of our faith in his perfect obedience. And, perhaps for me alone, it appears that in that striving, there comes an even greater conviction of sin, a greater knowledge of its particulars, its workings, its deviousness, its prevalence and ubiquity.
> 
> Sometimes it may seem all we see. It is so abounding in its boasting and parade of self glory, its open and seeming permanence of impunity by which it casts shame upon the Lord and in practice seems to effectively, unrelentingly, effectually...be suppressing ALL the truth of God in its unrighteousness. It can seem to be "winning."
> 
> We may even become faint. So faint in grace and fervor of love that it begins to taint our own hearts, the place where the Lord is to be set apart for sanctification.
> And we know it is wrong.
> All wrong.
> And all we seem to see, is WRONG.
> And we have lists of its terrible manifestations, even as
> abominations in the sight of God, and the whole of the yeasty loaf rising to blot out the light and life we may have once glimpsed may even lead us to despair.
> 
> Oh, God! Oh God!
> And we flail. We may rail. And we may even come to the place where we are so hard of heart that we begin to approve of condemnation, so full of its taint upon our own hearts where the Lord is to be set apart to be sanctified.
> Perhaps we may even forget...or even, God forbid, reverse the truth.
> That the son of man came into the world to condemn it, not to save it.
> We may inwardly begin to take delight in condemning (for the soul must have its daily bread), so lost in the iniquity abounding, we do not even know our own love has grown cold.
> We may become terribly casual in our judgments, so
> convinced of a self righteousness we do not even see and cling to as "our life", and be so horribly committed to seeing the wrath of God appear from our now distorted perspective that we abandon in our own hands the surgical skill required for salvation, and instead in frustrations stab so blindly at hearts we were once called to, by the skillful handling of the word of God, sever from the tumor we now only see as inextricably joined, fused, to it, inseparable in any way. NO ONE can fix this!
> And we do not even know we have cast away our own confidence.
> I know that man.
> Have lived with that man.
> Have eaten the fruit that that man sows.
> Thinking he is doing God's work, for what soul lives apart from service to its god?
> That man delighted in the ease with which he saw others plain and even "textually" provable abominations. His delight even became the ease with which he could self congratulatingly, and with such seeming skillful dexterity point out every foible, fault, and peccadillo or heresy in
> anyone "out there".
> Little did he know it was his own most grievous abomination within, a heart that had lifted itself up against the knowledge of God.
> God is salvation.
> I can only warn those who recognize any tendency of themselves to feel better, or who begin to delight inwardly at casting scorn upon others for what seems their most obvious and easily discernible degradations...beware.
> 
> But if you are numbered amongst those who weep at the sight of souls imprisoned and hard, this is not for you.
> For you, I only have appreciation and gratefulness for having prayed for me.
> Please, don't stop.




An oldie but a goodie, written for my group, who don't weep much...until our ears here this.

 "Classic Israel."

Maybe that is my new sig line: do you speak Israel-eeze?


----------



## GunnSmokeer

Pale Rider said:


> I can absolutely believe that you can not like homosexuality and not be labeled hateful. But I disagree that you cannot be a follower of Christ and a homosexual.
> 
> Can you fudge on your taxes and be a follower of Christ? Can you laugh at a dirty joke and be a follower of Christ? Can you commit a legion of sins and be a follower of Christ? Lots of people have sins that they cannot shake and still be followers of Christ. ...




It's one thing to discreetly fudge some numbers on your taxes, on the downlow, keeping your cheating ways "in the closet" 

but it's another thing entirely to proclaim, We're HERE, we're TAX CHEATS, and we're IN YOUR FACE!  And we demand that you stop criticizing us for not paying taxes. We have the right not to pay taxes!  Come to our tax cheat PARADE and wear Uncle Sam and Lady Liberty costumes and prance down the avenue en masse.

I'll bet most tax cheats will recognize that they are doing something wrong, and even if they can't resist the temptation to do it, they concede that it's against the rules, and they won't encourage others to violate federal laws and IRS regs either.

************************************
There's a world of difference between being a "recovering alcoholic" who battles with the bottle (or beer can) regularly and sometimes loses, and the person who doesn't even try and celebrates a drunken lifestyle, brags about binge drinking, tells funny stories about blackouts and DT's, and has a bumper sticker on his truck that reads:
"I am NOT an Alcoholic.  I am a DRUNK. (Alcoholics go to meetings.)"
There's a difference in the moral composition and maturity level of the gal who attends AA meetings but still keeps a bottle of vodka under her bed, and the gal who stays at the bar until closing time every other night and has a T-shirt that says:

One tequila, Two tequila, Three tequila, FLOOR !


----------



## Artfuldodger

GunnSmokeer said:


> It's one thing to discreetly fudge some numbers on your taxes, on the downlow, keeping your cheating ways "in the closet"
> 
> but it's another thing entirely to proclaim, We're HERE, we're TAX CHEATS, and we're IN YOUR FACE!  And we demand that you stop criticizing us for not paying taxes. We have the right not to pay taxes!  Come to our tax cheat PARADE and wear Uncle Sam and Lady Liberty costumes and prance down the avenue en masse.
> 
> I'll bet most tax cheats will recognize that they are doing something wrong, and even if they can't resist the temptation to do it, they concede that it's against the rules, and they won't encourage others to violate federal laws and IRS regs either.
> 
> ************************************
> There's a world of difference between being a "recovering alcoholic" who battles with the bottle (or beer can) regularly and sometimes loses, and the person who doesn't even try and celebrates a drunken lifestyle, brags about binge drinking, tells funny stories about blackouts and DT's, and has a bumper sticker on his truck that reads:
> "I am NOT an Alcoholic.  I am a DRUNK. (Alcoholics go to meetings.)"
> There's a difference in the moral composition and maturity level of the gal who attends AA meetings but still keeps a bottle of vodka under her bed, and the gal who stays at the bar until closing time every other night and has a T-shirt that says:
> 
> One tequila, Two tequila, Three tequila, FLOOR !



But in each of those instances, the Christians were once saved and will always be saved, correct? Sin is sin and God knows when we sin whether we tell the world or hide it from the world.
Secretely cheating or boastfully commiting adultry.


----------



## dotties cutter

If Christ were living and teaching today what would be his opinion of the gay person. ? Would Christ see the love the gay person shares with his partner and embrace it as righteous or would he believe it to be against Gods will. Both my wife and myself have and have had many gay friends in the past and present and have never witnessed and wrong doing from them, only good.


----------



## centerpin fan

dotties cutter said:


> If Christ were living and teaching today what would be his opinion of the gay person?



I believe He would love them enough to tell them what He told the woman caught in adultery:  "Neither do I condemn thee.  Go and sin no more."

Many today leave off that last part.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I believe he would tell them not to have heterosexual sex as it would be un-natural for them.
Just as he told heterosexuals not to have homosexual sex. That isn't natural.


----------



## panfried0419

I know better and more faithful Christian homosexuals who accept Jesus as Lord and Savior than SOME of the hypocritical heterosexual Christians that post on here.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> I know better and more faithful Christian homosexuals who accept Jesus as Lord and Savior ...



But have they repented of homosexual acts?


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe he would tell them not to have heterosexual sex as it would be un-natural for them.
> Just as he told heterosexuals not to have homosexual sex. That isn't natural.



AD, you never fail to bring your "A" game.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> AD, you never fail to bring your "A" game.



Jesus don't like for Christians to be on the "down-low."
If somone is in a relationship then they need to be faithful to that person and not seeing other people of either sex, whether they be prostitutes or aquaintances.
Most people know in their hearts when they cross the line even emotionally with someone else. Lust is just as bad.
Emotional relationships, just as bad. Looking at porn, just as bad. 
Girl watching, that's ok as long as you see it as beauty and don't lust.


----------



## panfried0419

centerpin fan said:


> But have they repented of homosexual acts?



How many Christians die before for repenting any and all sin?


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> How many Christians die before for repenting any and all sin?



OK, so they haven't.

Do they see homosexuality as sin?

Do you see homosexuality as sin?


----------



## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe he would tell them not to have heterosexual sex as it would be un-natural for them.
> Just as he told heterosexuals not to have homosexual sex. That isn't natural.



Why didn't Jesus say what you say here the First time He addressed it, then?

Can you cite any text in the Bible to support your opinion, Art?

Rebellion runs deep and masquerades in light and false righteousness.  Israel's post that I resurrected still convicts me of this, that is, my own disqualifying stench compelling me to disarm and drop my stones of judgment.

But I do not perceive Israel as abandoning the Bible's teachings on sin. In contrast, your theology appears quite at odds with the Bible.  Can we feed bread and wine through Christ's love to hardened, selfish sinners-- who if truth were told are much like us--without altering what the Bible says about sexual immorality?

Can you see a logical gulf between "I do not condemn you" and "repent, I do not condone your sin?"  When Christ says go and sin no more, isn't that for all of us, my forum friend, without exception of today's homosexuals, gluttons, idolators, etc.?  

I mean, to take your thelogy on this point to its extreme, 
would Jesus tell a pedophile to continue predatory child sex acts based on secular arguments of how such sin is biologically wired in the human brain, for pedophiles?

Jesus is Lord and Savior.  The only good in man is Christ's righteousness.  Oh how He loves us, despite us.  Can we reflect that without heresy on this topic?


----------



## panfried0419

centerpin fan said:


> OK, so they haven't.
> 
> Do they see homosexuality as sin?
> 
> Do you see homosexuality as sin?



I see judging and condemning others without taking a step back and looking at their own lives a sin.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> I see judging and condemning others without taking a step back and looking at their own lives a sin.



First, one sinner telling another sinner about the blessing known as repentance is not "judging and condemning".  If an alcoholic walks into an AA meeting, they won't say to him, "Welcome, and have a drink!" 

Second, I examine my own life daily and continue to work out my salvation with fear and trembling.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> I see judging and condemning others without taking a step back and looking at their own lives a sin.



Do you see homosexuality as sin?  It's not a trick question.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Do you see homosexuality as sin?  It's not a trick question.



I would need a whole lot of the Biblical explaination to know exactly what it is talking about that is a sin. 
The Bible interpreters use too many words for me to understand for me to say exactly what it is that is a sin.
ARSENOKOITAI , MALAKOI, temple prostitutes, heterosexual married men having sex with homosexual men. 
I don't have the fully needed knowledge to make that determination yet.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> Why didn't Jesus say what you say here the First time He addressed it, then?
> 
> Can you cite any text in the Bible to support your opinion, Art?
> QUOTE]
> 
> No I can't, the words are too confusing, I don't know their meaning or intent of usage.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't have the fully needed knowledge to make that determination yet.



Being able to read English is enough for me.  I learned that in the first grade.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> OK, so they haven't.
> 
> Do they see homosexuality as sin?
> 
> Do you see homosexuality as sin?



If you are saved by grace, does sin even matter? Atren't we not washed? What about someone sinning by ignorance? 
What is accidental sin that I read about? How can someone accidentally sin? 
Why is having a physical dependancy on alcohol a sin?


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> I would need a whole lot of the Biblical explaination to know exactly what it is talking about that is a sin.
> The Bible interpreters use too many words for me to understand for me to say exactly what it is that is a sin.
> ARSENOKOITAI , MALAKOI, temple prostitutes, heterosexual married men having sex with homosexual men.
> I don't have the fully needed knowledge to make that determination yet.



Where are "temple prostitutes" discussed in the NT?


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Being able to read English is enough for me.  I learned that in the first grade.



it's not working on any of the other topics we discuss.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> If you are saved by grace, does sin even matter? Atren't we not washed? What about someone sinning by ignorance?
> What is accidental sin that I read about? How can someone accidentally sin?
> Why is having a physical dependancy on alcohol a sin?



Start another thread.


----------



## BT Charlie

panfried0419 said:


> I see judging and condemning others without taking a step back and looking at their own lives a sin.



I think I can receive and understand this view. Moreover, at times my own conduct fuels this perception, much to my despair.  That said, trying to organize around murder or adultery would generate similar human sentiments and arguments, and won't change one eternal thing.

The OP and this discussion helps us consider Christ-like response to homosexuals who have made a choice in life about a particular part of their Me-ness. Sadly, it is this very desperate Me-ness, mine, the selfishness of our carnal existence, we got to such lengths to deny or defend. To the death, even, now and even then.

We all sin, and to a frightening degree, fail to get it or even care to get it.  Your point is a good reminder of that and I thank you for making it.    

If we lumped people by their favorite or primary sin characteristic (sexual immorality by type; murdeing; stealing; lying; coveting; idolatry; etc.) many of us would report under numerous labels.  If the church were to apply equal zeal to responding to sin types, I think the body would be healthier, and I do not think we'd be in a much different church or political situation. Why?

Because no other sin group publicly denies that their sin is not such, like homosexual proponents do.  This distinguishes homosexuality and appears to me anyway to fulfill prophecy of deception among believers.

As CP indicated far more eloquently and briefly than I, we don't love addicts by drinking, smoking or shooting up with them.  Are we loving homosexuals by condoning their sin in various ways and by degree?

How is mature love, fear and trembling best demonstrated to sinners?


----------



## HawgJawl

BT Charlie said:


> Because no other sin group publicly denies that their sin is not such, like homosexual proponents do.  This distinguishes homosexuality and appears to me anyway to fulfill prophecy of deception among believers.



How would you compare the above statement with women speaking in church, and possibly even wearing short hair and pants while they teach a Sunday school class?


----------



## BT Charlie

HawgJawl said:


> How would you compare the above statement with women speaking in church, and possibly even wearing short hair and pants while they teach a Sunday school class?




Apples and giblets, Hawg.

Paul's pastoral instruction versus Jesus' own loving instruction to the sexually immoral sinner (each of us) -- I do not condemn you; go and sin no more.  Hardly equivalents, nor is the contrast relevant, in my view, to the OP's point on how the church should or should not love 
homosexuals.  

I don't think you love homosexuals by condoning their rebellion or facilitating it, relabeling it, pretending it is not selfish rebellion, celebrating it, parading it, politically and legally advocating and requiring society to accept it, etc.

How do you see the ink blot of your question, friend (as if the answer is not obvious)?


----------



## HawgJawl

BT Charlie said:


> Apples and giblets, Hawg.
> 
> Paul's pastoral instruction versus Jesus' own loving instruction to the sexually immoral sinner (each of us) -- I do not condemn you; go and sin no more.  Hardly equivalents, nor is the contrast relevant, in my view, to the OP's point on how the church should or should not love
> homosexuals.
> 
> I don't think you love homosexuals by condoning their rebellion or facilitating it, relabeling it, pretending it is not selfish rebellion, celebrating it, parading it, politically and legally advocating and requiring society to accept it, etc.
> 
> How do you see the ink blot of your question, friend (as if the answer is not obvious)?



The women's liberation movement is comparable to the gay rights movement in that both aimed at changing societies view of the issue.  The goal was not to force society to, for instance, permit a women to be a pastor, but to change the perspective of anyone who believed that to be a sin.


----------



## HawgJawl

BT Charlie said:


> Paul's pastoral instruction versus Jesus' own loving instruction



This is literally the very first time I have heard anyone on this forum take Jesus' word over Paul's.  As surprising as that may sound, it is the truth.  Thank you for that.


----------



## 04ctd

a phrase I often use is:  "I will stand in Judgement of no man"  when someone asks me to gossip, or to condemn a brother, because his public sin is thier favorite private sin.

i always say you don't know the roads he has walked, and you don't know what goes thru his head when he lays awake.

your sin is sufficient to condemn you, and so is his, you best worry about yourself.  

the church might have to take up church discipline...but it dont do that thru gossip.


IRT the OP, I think there are gay people who are worthwhile in person, but the mass mobs of gay's trying to ram thier lifestyle down our throat....I don't think anyone wants to be told what to accept by another group.


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> This is literally the very first time I have heard anyone on this forum take Jesus' word over Paul's.



There's no conflict between the two.


----------



## BT Charlie

HawgJawl said:


> This is literally the very first time I have heard anyone on this forum take Jesus' word over Paul's.  As surprising as that may sound, it is the truth.  Thank you for that.



Uh, you're welcome?

As I said, no comparison between them.  I do not think Paul's pastoral preferences = Jesus's diagnosis and treatment of human sin.  In any event, I did not comment on the correctness of Paul's view, whether violation of his view is sin, or whether it is the appropriate scriptural verse to analogize in the context of how believers and the church are called to love sinners, in the case of the OP, openly homosexual couples.

Can love = condoning, facilitating, encouraging, promoting, parading, advocating sinful conduct of any nature?  Paul's thoughts on female roles in the church are irrelevant to this question, IMHO.  So it is incorrect to imply I've resolved a contradiction between Christ and Paul, as none remotely exists in this context.


----------



## BT Charlie

centerpin fan said:


> There's no conflict between the two.



I wish I'd said that.


----------



## BT Charlie

04ctd said:


> a phrase I often use is:  "I will stand in Judgement of no man"  when someone asks me to gossip, or to condemn a brother, because his public sin is thier favorite private sin.
> 
> i always say you don't know the roads he has walked, and you don't know what goes thru his head when he lays awake.
> 
> your sin is sufficient to condemn you, and so is his, you best worry about yourself.
> 
> the church might have to take up church discipline...but it dont do that thru gossip.
> 
> 
> IRT the OP, I think there are gay people who are worthwhile in person, but the mass mobs of gay's trying to ram thier lifestyle down our throat....I don't think anyone
> wants to be told what to accept by another group.



Well said.

Are we not obligated to defend our hope in Christ? Peter and Jude say we are.  I do not think insisting that sin be called sin his gossip, hate, ignorance, or hypocritical, without other proofs of motive, conduct, etc.

Christ acted in love. He would be hanging with homosexuals, addicts and such today.  But His love would never leave them separated in their rebellion.  Ours shouldn't either.  

Can we do that with neither condoning sin nor condemning ourselves?


----------



## HawgJawl

BT Charlie said:


> I do not think Paul's pastoral preferences = Jesus's diagnosis and treatment of human sin.
> 
> Paul's thoughts on female roles in the church are irrelevant to this question,



Excellent!!!

I've maintained for quite some time now that Paul himself admitted that a few scriptures were his own opinion instead of God's word.  Glad to see you're on-board with that.


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> There's no conflict between the two.



Several key elements were added by Paul to Christian theology that weren't evident in Jesuism. 
These included:
 1.Original sin
 2.Making Jews the villains
 3.Making Jesus divine
 4.Transubstantiation of bread and wine into actual flesh  and blood
 5.Jesus' death being seen as atonement for human sin
 6.Making Jesus the Messiah
 7.Shifting the emphasis from an earthly to a heavenly kingdom
 8.Enlarging the chosen people to include anyone who accepted Jesus as Saviour
 9.Making salvation a matter of belief in Jesus almost regardless of the demands of the Torah
 10.Establishing a hierarchy (literally a holy order) to create and control a Church and more importantly to create and control the beliefs of its membership


----------



## Wild Turkey

I love it when people quote the Bible and disect every word and its meaning. The original was written in a dead language that cant be translated directly to any modern language. And its been translated many times over the last 2000 years. So how on gods green earth can you quote something that doesnt even say what was originally written but translated indirectly over and over again.


----------



## centerpin fan

Wild Turkey said:


> The original was written in a dead language that cant be translated directly to any modern language.



That's just not true.


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> Several key elements were added by Paul to Christian theology that weren't evident in Jesuism.



That they were not evident does not change the fact that Paul was Jesus' chosen messenger to the Gentiles.


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> That they were not evident does not change the fact that Paul was Jesus' chosen messenger to the Gentiles.



Contradiction is not the proper term.

There are many Christian concepts that we Gentiles absolutely love which trace back to Paul but not to Jesus.

For a Gentile, there's not one single author that would change the religion more if their contribution were excluded.


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> Contradiction is not the proper term.
> 
> There are many Christian concepts that we Gentiles absolutely love which trace back to Paul but not to Jesus.
> 
> For a Gentile, there's not one single author that would change the religion more if their contribution were excluded.



Pitting Jesus against Paul has a long history, particularly when it comes to the subject of homosexuality.  That does not change the fact that Paul was _chosen by Jesus Himself _to carry the gospel to the Gentiles.


----------



## BT Charlie

HawgJawl said:


> Excellent!!!
> 
> I've maintained for quite some time now that Paul himself admitted that a few scriptures were his own opinion instead of God's word.  Glad to see you're on-board with that.



Me showing up is like three smart guys leaving a discussion, Hawg.  

My support is worth what you paid for it. Work your own salvation out in fear and trembling forum friend.


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> Pitting Jesus against Paul has a long history, particularly when it comes to the subject of homosexuality.  That does not change the fact that Paul was _chosen by Jesus Himself _to carry the gospel to the Gentiles.



Or was Paul self-appointed?

Why didn't Jesus appoint one of the disciples who actually walked with Jesus, witnessed His miracles, and listened to His teachings to spread the gospel to the Gentiles?  Why pick someone who never met Jesus in the flesh and divinely relay the gospel to this person to spread to the Gentiles?  If the message was the same for everyone, why make a distinction between the gospel for the Gentiles and the gospel that the rest of the disciples were told to spread?


----------



## HawgJawl

BT Charlie said:


> Me showing up is like three smart guys leaving a discussion, Hawg.
> 
> My support is worth what you paid for it. Work your own salvation out in fear and trembling forum friend.



I'm just joking with you Charlie.  I knew that's not how you meant that.


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> Or was Paul self-appointed?
> 
> Why didn't Jesus appoint one of the disciples who actually walked with Jesus, witnessed His miracles, and listened to His teachings to spread the gospel to the Gentiles?  Why pick someone who never met Jesus in the flesh and divinely relay the gospel to this person to spread to the Gentiles?  If the message was the same for everyone, why make a distinction between the gospel for the Gentiles and the gospel that the rest of the disciples were told to spread?



If Paul was attempting a “coup”, the other apostles would’ve stopped it in a heartbeat.  Instead, they recognized him as one of their own.  

As for “why Paul to the Gentiles”, my theory is that Jesus knew that the Gentiles would need a teacher, someone with a mastery of the OT who could explain the “grafting in” of the Gentile peoples.  Paul was better equipped than any of the others for that.  To the proud and stubborn Jews, Jesus sent the unschooled fishermen.


----------



## rjcruiser

panfried0419 said:


> I see judging and condemning others without taking a step back and looking at their own lives a sin.



COPOUT...one of the all time favorites of people who don't like to discern truth from error.





Wild Turkey said:


> I love it when people quote the Bible and disect every word and its meaning. The original was written in a dead language that cant be translated directly to any modern language. And its been translated many times over the last 2000 years. So how on gods green earth can you quote something that doesnt even say what was originally written but translated indirectly over and over again.



Just gotta say...that is a hogwash.  That used to be a viable argument that christian liberals and non-Christians used to bring to the forefront of the debate.  However, due to modern archeological finds, it just isn't true.  Manuscripts transcribed in the mid second century of the NT books match those transcribed hundreds of years later.  And the Dead Sea Scrolls date back to 500-600BC and matched almost exactly to the documents dated much much later.

Are their some issues?  Yes.  But it's been shown that 99.96% matches exactly to the earliest manuscripts found.  To argue that the current Bible is much different than the original documents just doesn't hold water.


Okay...carry on about Homosexuality being a sin.


----------



## centerpin fan

As I’ve been reading and replying to this thread, I’ve noticed many members reading it who never post in this forum.  I wonder if it’s the subject itself that brings people out of the woodwork or if it’s this thread’s bizarre title.  Maybe it’s a combination.


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> As for “why Paul to the Gentiles”, my theory is that Jesus knew that the Gentiles would need a teacher, someone with a mastery of the OT who could explain the “grafting in” of the Gentile peoples.  Paul was better equipped than any of the others for that.  To the proud and stubborn Jews, Jesus sent the unschooled fishermen.



It seems almost like an afterthought, doesn't it?

It seem like if that was Jesus' plan, He would have assigned one of the twelve, or added Paul as number thirteen when He first began gathering followers.  Scripture should relay all the clear instructions He gave the thirteen for exactly what message they were to spread and exactly how they were to relay that same message to both the Jews and the Gentiles.  That could have even prevented the incident at Antioch.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> As I’ve been reading and replying to this thread, I’ve noticed many members reading it who never post in this forum.  I wonder if it’s the subject itself that brings people out of the woodwork or if it’s this thread’s bizarre title.  Maybe it’s a combination.



It does appear there are certain key words or subjects that spark debate in everyone. Homosexuality, abortion, Trinity, Election, works salvation, Grace alone, soul sleep, & Heaven on earth.


----------



## 04ctd

FWIW, i would like to pose some questions:

#1  if a gay couple came into church and attended respectfully and quietly, how would you & your church react?

#2 same gay couple, holding hands, and being close enough to make you nervous, or making your kid ask why they were holding hands.

#3 same couple, asks to baptized.

#4 same couple, asks to be married.


not asking to stir the pot...but asking so when something does happen, we have thought about it, and we have the right scriptural answer.

i think this is something your church council/deacons/leaders need to discuss also, if just for awareness.


----------



## centerpin fan

#1  if a gay couple came into church and attended respectfully and quietly, how would you & your church react?  Lovingly preach the gospel to them, which includes repentance.

#2 same gay couple, holding hands, and being close enough to make you nervous, or making your kid ask why they were holding hands.  In church?  Or out on the street?  If the former, same as #1.  If the latter, ignore it.

#3 same couple, asks to baptized.  Same as #1.

#4 same couple, asks to be married.  Same as #1.


----------



## BT Charlie

centerpin fan said:


> #1  if a gay couple came into church and attended respectfully and quietly, how would you & your church react?  Lovingly preach the gospel to them, which includes repentance.
> 
> #2 same gay couple, holding hands, and being close enough to make you nervous, or making your kid ask why they were holding hands.  In church?  Or out on the street?  If the former, same as #1.  If the latter, ignore
> 
> #3 same couple, asks to baptized.  Same as #1.
> 
> #4 same couple, asks to be married.
> Same as #1.





Do you allow any unrepentant, openly sinning members to participate in communion?


----------



## panfried0419

Artfuldodger said:


> It does appear there are certain key words or subjects that spark debate in everyone. Homosexuality, abortion, Trinity, Election, works salvation, Grace alone, soul sleep, & Heaven on earth.



Artful, my fellow creation evolutionist, your post that make common sense are going to make the other's have an aneurysm!


----------



## centerpin fan

BT Charlie said:


> Do you allow any unrepentant, openly sinning members to participate in communion?



Every member understands that he is to examine himself before taking communion.  If that member decides there is unconfessed, unrepentant sin in his life, he makes the decision not to take communion.  If, however, someone approached the chalice and the priest was aware of unrepentant sin in his life, he would not serve him communion.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Hebrews 10:14
New International Version
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

New Living Translation
For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy.

English Standard Version
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.


This applies to everyone being sanctified except __________.(your sin here) or
__________.(your neighbor's sin here) or __________.(the sins I forgot to confess) or ___________.(no sins)


----------



## BT Charlie

centerpin fan said:


> Every member understands that he is to examine himself before taking communion.  If that member decides there is unconfessed, unrepentant sin in his life, he makes the decision not to take communion.  If, however, someone approached the chalice and the priest was aware of unrepentant sin in his life, he would not serve him communion.



We are remarkably, or unremarkably, similar.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I'm going to have to re-think my stance on how God's grace and forgivenss works. I might have to join the "grace only" crowd as they view forgiveness of everyone without stipulations. How does the stipulations work with a OSAS belief? Forgivenss plus a certain amount of repentance? Isn't repentance a part of our sanctification? Isn't sanctification givin by God?                                                                                     Is forgiveness for everyone except homosexuals and lustful hearts?  Who else do we add, haters, jealousy, boastfullness, non meekness?
I think i'll add unforgiveness to my list. That would be ironic wouldn't i? God will forgive all sins except unforgiveness.  That's my new list which means I can't join the "grace only" believers. Oh well I tried.

Matthew 6:15
But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.

It looks like I can work my way into Heaven after all. That's all we are really worried about, right? We're just all trying to get to Heaven. We don't really care about all this helping other people and love. We don't care about Holiness, spirituality, and forgiveness. We just want to get to Heaven. We want everyone to play by the righteous rules but ourselves. After all, we are the only one's doing it the right way.


----------



## panfried0419

The one true unforgivable sin is denying the Holy Spirit. Never accepting Jesus Christ as Lord amd Savior. Which includes suicide. Denying God's plan. So if a homosexual accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior I believe they are ok in the hands of the Lord. I know the Baptist are going to cringe at that. But I am also a theistic evolutionist. God is real. God loves everyone.


----------



## Artfuldodger

panfried0419 said:


> The one true unforgivable sin is denying the Holy Spirit. Never accepting Jesus Christ as Lord amd Savior. Which includes suicide. Denying God's plan. So if a homosexual accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior I believe they are ok in the hands of the Lord. I know the Baptist are going to cringe at that. But I am also a theistic evolutionist. God is real. God loves everyone.



I'm a Non-Trinitarian creationist evolutionist so I'm out with the Baptist too. 
I believe God is a great creator who uses science. When I look at the human body, I see a miracle and science.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> So if a homosexual accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior I believe they are ok in the hands of the Lord.



Is that the same as repenting of their sin?


----------



## hobbs27

panfried0419 said:


> The one true unforgivable sin is denying the Holy Spirit. Never accepting Jesus Christ as Lord amd Savior. Which includes suicide. Denying God's plan. So if a homosexual accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior I believe they are ok in the hands of the Lord. I know the Baptist are going to cringe at that. But I am also a theistic evolutionist. God is real. God loves everyone.



You got scripture to back up the suicide comment or just personal feelings about it? BTW, I believe there's homosexuals that are saved. They can repent and be celibate, just as an alcoholic can stop drinking and be sober.


----------



## panfried0419

hobbs27 said:


> You got scripture to back up the suicide comment or just personal feelings about it?



It's denying the Holy Spirit. His plan. I don't need to post scripture that's always going to be misinterpreted by everyone else. This thread isn't about that. Don't derail it.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> The one true unforgivable sin is denying the Holy Spirit. Never accepting Jesus Christ as Lord amd Savior. Which includes suicide. Denying God's plan. So if a homosexual accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior I believe they are ok in the hands of the Lord. I know the Baptist are going to cringe at that. But I am also a theistic evolutionist. God is real. God loves everyone.



It sounds like you're admitting that homosexuality IS sin (without actually saying it.)  I guess that's all I can expect.


----------



## panfried0419

centerpin fan said:


> It sounds like you're admitting that homosexuality IS sin (without actually saying it.)  I guess that's all I can expect.



Ecclesiastes 9:4.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> Ecclesiastes 9:4.



For the life of me, I don't see why you refuse to give a straight answer to this:  



centerpin fan said:


> Do you see homosexuality as sin?



I can only assume it's because your answer is "no".

Oh, well.  I guess I should be thankful that you finally posted a scripture (unrelated to the topic at hand but a scripture, nonetheless.)


----------



## Artfuldodger

I believe heterosexuals having un-natural sex with the same sex is a sin. I believe whatever is the Bible says about it is a sin, I just don't know what the bible is saying about it.
But for the sake of argument let's say it is two men who love each other and don't cheat on each other. If it is them and they are sinning, why or what about their sin is unforgivable? Is it just a lack of repentance?


----------



## centerpin fan

Ten people reading this thread.


----------



## HawgJawl

hobbs27 said:


> I believe there's homosexuals that are saved. They can repent and be celibate, just as an alcoholic can stop drinking and be sober.



Your comparison of homosexuals to alcoholics brings up a new issue.

If we apply the same standard to both sins;

The alcoholic must repent of being an alcoholic and abstain from drinking alcohol in order to be saved.

If an alcoholic attempts to accept Christ as their personal Lord and Savior without repenting of being an alcoholic, they will not be saved.

If an alcoholic repents but has no real intention of abstaining from alcohol in the future, they will not be saved.

Once an alcoholic repents and is saved, how many times can he backslide and drink alcohol afterward before he is no longer saved? (Or do we just fall back on the saying that he was never "really" saved?)


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> Your comparison of homosexuals to alcoholics brings up a new issue.
> 
> If we apply the same standard to both sins;
> 
> The alcoholic must repent of being an alcoholic and abstain from drinking alcohol in order to be saved.
> 
> If an alcoholic attempts to accept Christ as their personal Lord and Savior without repenting of being an alcoholic, they will not be saved.
> 
> If an alcoholic repents but has no real intention of abstaining from alcohol in the future, they will not be saved.
> 
> Once an alcoholic repents and is saved, how many times can he backslide and drink alcohol afterward before he is no longer saved? (Or do we just fall back on the saying that he was never "really" saved?)



Aren't we sliding into a "Pharisee" type of Christian deciding who gets in and who doesn't? 
What about lust? How often does this repentance need to happen? How amny sins and how often? Does daily lust need daily repentance? What about daily confession? It all starts to sound too Legalistic.


----------



## panfried0419

HawgJawl said:


> Your comparison of homosexuals to alcoholics brings up a new issue.
> 
> If we apply the same standard to both sins;
> 
> The alcoholic must repent of being an alcoholic and abstain from drinking alcohol in order to be saved.
> 
> If an alcoholic attempts to accept Christ as their personal Lord and Savior without repenting of being an alcoholic, they will not be saved.
> 
> If an alcoholic repents but has no real intention of abstaining from alcohol in the future, they will not be saved.
> 
> Once an alcoholic repents and is saved, how many times can he backslide and drink alcohol afterward before he is no longer saved? (Or do we just fall back on the saying that he was never "really" saved?)





Another person who knows who can and cannot be saved.


----------



## HawgJawl

Artfuldodger said:


> Aren't we sliding into a "Pharisee" type of Christian deciding who gets in and who doesn't?
> What about lust? How often does this repentance need to happen? How amny sins and how often? Does daily lust need daily repentance? What about daily confession? It all starts to sound too Legalistic.



True.

Let's apply the question about allowing a person we know to sin by lusting to attend church, to participate in communion, to be married.


----------



## HawgJawl

panfried0419 said:


> Another person who knows who can and cannot be saved.



I was being sarcastic and pointing out a double-standard.


----------



## panfried0419

HawgJawl said:


> I was being sarcastic and pointing out a double-standard.



Aaahhh!!! I see! Well then. Good post


----------



## Artfuldodger

1 John 3:15 
Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

Hate is as bad as murder. I guess sin is something we can't totally or completly quit doing.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 John 3:15
> Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
> 
> Hate is as bad as murder. I guess sin is something we can't totally or completly quit doing.



Not true!  I swore off murdering people months ago.


----------



## HawgJawl

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 John 3:15
> Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
> 
> Hate is as bad as murder. I guess sin is something we can't totally or completly quit doing.



So, the question is;

Why do we pick certain sins that "must be" repented of and abstained from in order to be part of the church, and others that don't matter quite as much.


----------



## Grub Master

I have a neighbor that is a drunk.  He has lost his wife, a great job, relationship with his kids and family members.  He just got a DUI and totaled his vehicle.
He was a great guy and a real family man. What he is doing with his life is wrong. In my opinion his life style is now as wrong as the gay lifestyle in God's eyes. Do I hate him, - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - no.  I really feel for the guy and what he is going through.  Does that make me a "drunk-a-fobic" or a "drunk-basher"?  I don't think so.
The "left" needs to get off their high horse and spend more time correcting the problem and less trying in vain to defending their position.


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> So, the question is;
> 
> Why do we pick certain sins that "must be" repented of and abstained from in order to be part of the church, and others that don't matter quite as much.




Christians are not the ones saying that homosexuality is the “bad” sin and we can just wink at the others.  We are having this fight thrust upon us because, as HF so eloquently put it way back in post 74:




Huntinfool said:


> There is a concentrated and DIRECT effort to try to infiltrate the Church with the belief that homosexuality is 'normal' or 'part of how God designed some people'.


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> There is a concentrated and DIRECT effort to try to infiltrate the Church with the belief that homosexuality is 'normal' or 'part of how God designed some people'.



... and if anyone needs more evidence of this, here you go:

http://notalllikethat.org/


----------



## HawgJawl

At one time there was a concentrated and DIRECT effort to try to infiltrate the Church with the belief that women's equality is 'normal' and how God intended it to be.


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> At one time there was a concentrated and DIRECT effort to try to infiltrate the Church with the belief that women's equality is 'normal' and how God intended it to be.



Being a woman is not a sin.


----------



## HawgJawl

Women's "proper place" in society and in church was the issue.

It was a sin for a woman to dress a certain way.

Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

1 Timothy 2:9
I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,

1 Peter 3:3
Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes.

1 Corinthians 11:6
For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.


----------



## olcowman

centerpin fan said:


> ... and if anyone needs more evidence of this, here you go:
> 
> http://notalllikethat.org/



That is one creepy video...


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Christians are not the ones saying that homosexuality is the “bad” sin and we can just wink at the others.  We are having this fight thrust upon us because, as HF so eloquently put it way back in post 74:



Why not just go to another Church or join a denomination that doesn't accept their lifestyle? Kinda like when I stopped believing in the Trinity, I just stopped going to Trinitarian Churches. I didn't try to change the Baptist denomination to accepting my new belief.


----------



## centerpin fan

olcowman said:


> That is one creepy video...



There are lots of videos on that site.  Jay Bakker (Jim’s son) is in one.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Grub Master said:


> I have a neighbor that is a drunk.  He has lost his wife, a great job, relationship with his kids and family members.  He just got a DUI and totaled his vehicle.
> He was a great guy and a real family man. What he is doing with his life is wrong. In my opinion his life style is now as wrong as the gay lifestyle in God's eyes. Do I hate him, - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - no.  I really feel for the guy and what he is going through.  Does that make me a "drunk-a-fobic" or a "drunk-basher"?  I don't think so.
> The "left" needs to get off their high horse and spend more time correcting the problem and less trying in vain to defending their position.



If this man was a Christian and became an drunkard or turned gay years later, would he still be saved?
Either of these bad habits he picked up years later could mean, he was never a Christian to begin with. That's the easiest way to explain it.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> Why not just go to another Church or join a denomination that doesn't accept their lifestyle? Kinda like when I stopped believing in the Trinity, I just stopped going to Trinitarian Churches. I didn't try to change the Baptist denomination to accepting my new belief.



There are gay and gay-friendly churches out there.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> There are gay and gay-friendly churches out there.



Yeah, some of those "grace only" churches are like that.


----------



## panfried0419

Become Baptist. "WE are all right and YOU are all wrong!"
I think that's their motto.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> Become Baptist. "WE are all right and YOU are all wrong!"
> I think that's their motto.



I'm pretty sure it's not.  Regardless, it has nothing to do with this thread.


----------



## panfried0419

centerpin fan said:


> I'm pretty sure it's not.  Regardless, it has nothing to do with this thread.



Point being.....


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> Point being.....



It has nothing to do with this thread.  

First of all, nobody has said, "I'm a Baptist, and this is why we're right and everybody else is wrong."

Second, it's not like Baptists are on one side of this issue and every other Christian group is on the other.  Throughout church history, homosexuality has always been viewed as sin by everybody.


----------



## panfried0419

centerpin fan said:


> It has nothing to do with this thread.
> 
> First of all, nobody has said, "I'm a Baptist, and this is why we're right and everybody else is wrong."
> 
> Second, it's not like Baptists are on one side of this issue and every other Christian group is on the other.  Throughout church history, homosexuality has always been viewed as sin by everybody.



So is drinking, premarital sex, saying the Lord's name in vain, lying, lustful thoughts, judging, condemning, gambling, gluttony, etc. And yes comment had something to do with this thread. But I am sure you will post and or misinterpret scripture for that too


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> It has nothing to do with this thread.
> 
> First of all, nobody has said, "I'm a Baptist, and this is why we're right and everybody else is wrong."
> 
> Second, it's not like Baptists are on one side of this issue and every other Christian group is on the other.  Throughout church history, homosexuality has always been viewed as sin by everybody.



Would you say that the Biblical use of the words describing homosexuality are ambiguous in direct meaning?
What do these words mean: malakoi & arsenokoitai? 
What about pederasty and straight men being on the "down-low?" Would those two things be considered un-natural for a married man to perform?
Are the effiminate considered straight metro-sexuals thus being worse sinners than macho-homosexuals?
What about the word  arsenokoites? Are you positive the interpreters got that one right? Have you even studies any of these terms? Would you like to? Do you really want to learn the truth?


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> It has nothing to do with this thread.
> 
> First of all, nobody has said, "I'm a Baptist, and this is why we're right and everybody else is wrong."
> 
> Second, it's not like Baptists are on one side of this issue and every other Christian group is on the other.  Throughout church history, homosexuality has always been viewed as sin by everybody.



Do you  understand Romans 1.18-32 is a sting operation?

Romans 1.18-32 is a sting operation. It whips the reader into a frenzy of indignation against others: those unbelievers, those idol-worshippers, those enemies of God. But in 2.1, the sting strikes: Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgement on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge are doing the very same thing. In Romans 2, Paul shows that all people--Jew and Gentile--stand equally condemned under the judgement of God. So for Paul the self-righteous judgement of homosexuality is just as shameful as the behavior itself. No one has secure platform to stand upon in order to pronounce condemnation on others.

http://www.collegeparkchurch.com/homosexuality_study.htm

Please, if you don't believe this is true, don't go to College Park Church. It really is that easy. Use the same principal we use for not attending other Churches depending on your beliefs. Make sure your Church knows how you feel so as they don't ever "turn the other cheek."


----------



## JB0704

Glad this old thread got bumped.  I'd forgotten how many good discussions we used to have in here.   Went back and read it from the beginning.  Good stuff.

Has anybody changed their mind on this since 08/2012?


----------



## Artfuldodger

The full text of the American Standard Version reads:

    "Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God." (emphasis ours)

Unfortunately, the two behaviors shown in bold above are ambiguous. The meaning of the original Greek has been lost.

The list of activities that will eliminate any possibility of salvation has been expressed by various English translations as:
	American Standard Version: unrighteous, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with men, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers or extortioners.
 	Amplified Bible: unrighteous and wrongdoers; impure and immoral, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuality, cheats (swindlers and thieves), greedy graspers, drunkards, revilers and slanderers, extortioners and robbers
 	The Answer: people who do wrong; sin sexually, worship idols, take part in adultery, male prostitutes, men who have sexual relations with other men, steal, greedy, get drunk, lie about others, rob
 	The Authentic New Testament: evil-doers; immoral, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuals, thieves, userers, drunkards, foul-mouthed, extortioners
 	Christian Standard Bible: sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, or swindlers
 	The Jerusalem Bible: people who do wrong; people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanderers, swindlers
 	King James: unrighteous; fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners
 	Living Bible: going to outside judges, immoral, idol worshipers, adulterers, homosexuals, thieves, greedy, drunkards, slanderers, robbers
 	The Living New Testament: those doing such things, live immoral lives, idol worshipers, adulterers, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, slandermongers, robbers
 	Modern Language: unrighteous; profligates. idolaters, adulterers, homosexuals, thieves, avaricious, drunkards, slanderers, robbers
 	James Moffatt: wicked; immoral, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, lustful, drunken, abusive, robbers
 	New American: unjust; fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, boy prostitutes, practicing homosexuals, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, slanderers, robbers
bullet	New American Standard: unrighteous; fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers or swindlers.
 	New Century Version: people who do wrong, sin sexually, worship idols, take part in adultery, men who have sexual relations with other men, steal, selfish, get drunk, lie about others, cheat
 	New International: wicked; sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexual offenders, thieves, greedy, drunkards, slanderers, swindlers
 	New Living Translation: those who do wrong; those who indulge in sexual sin, idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy, drunkards, abusers, swindlers
 	New Revised Standard Version: wrongdoers; fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, greedy drunkards, revilers, robbers
 	New Testament and Psalms: (3) wrongdoers; sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, thieves, greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers
 	New World: unrighteous; fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, men kept for unnatural purposes, men who lie with men, thieves, greedy persons, drunkards, revilers or extortioners.
 	The Promise: evil people; immoral, worships idols, unfaithful in marriage, pervert or behaves like a homosexual...thief, greedy person, drunkards, anyone who curses and cheats others.
 	Revised English Bible: wrongdoers; fornicator, idolater, adulterer, sexual pervert, thief, extortioner, drunkard, slanderer, swindler.
 	Revised Standard: unrighteous; immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers
 	Rheims New Testament: unjust; fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, liers with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, railers, extortioners
 	The New Testament: lechers, idolaters, adulterers, effeminates, pederasts, thieves, covetous, drunken, abusive, rapacious (Translated by Richmond Lattimore)
 	Today's English Version: wicked, immoral, worship idols, adulterers, homosexual perverts, steal, greedy, drunkards. slanders, thieves
 	The United Gospels New Testament: unrighteous; fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sav1.htm


----------



## Artfuldodger

JB0704 said:


> Glad this old thread got bumped.  I'd forgotten how many good discussions we used to have in here.   Went back and read it from the beginning.  Good stuff.
> 
> Has anybody changed their mind on this since 08/2012?



I have changed my mind but not since 08/2012. It has taken me about 50 years to change from someone who actually hated gay people. I also actually hated blacks, Yankees, most other races, and wasn't too keen on women's rights either.
I felt I was superior to others because of being a white male. I have not gone the liberal route of feeling so guilty about it to offer restitution just forgiveness.
Just some insight on me personally and how I have changed over time. It is and continues to be a slow process. It's not for everyone, just me.
I would like for people to at least look into what these words mean and how they apply. Just research it and think about it. You don't have to change if you don't feel compelled just seek brotherhood in like minded churches.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I will agree with this translation :
 pervert or behaves like a homosexual.

Only straight people can behave like a homosexual. It would be perverted for a straight person to behave like a homosexual. It would really be perverted for a married man to act like a homosexual.

My favorite sin from the translations was "slandermongers."
That sounds like the worse sin ever.


----------



## hobbs27

panfried0419 said:


> Another person who knows who can and cannot be saved.



So HJ was being funny, thats fine.
Most babes in Christ can understand this simple straight forward passage:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

New American Standard Bible (NASB)


9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

 Its not claiming to have the ability to judge who can and cannot go to heaven---its just simple scripture quoting! 

 Everyone that says a homosexual, a drunkard, thief, swindlers,etc  can inherit the kingdom of God is made a liar by this scripture.---but lets take note of verse 11. Such were some of you...guess what happened? The homosexual the swindlers the drunkards were washed and sanctified---They were changed in the twinkling of an eye! They were no longer homosexuals, swindlers, drunkards..Thats the Good News! Jesus made a way for all of us, including the homosexual...but they will be changed.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> So is drinking, premarital sex, saying the Lord's name in vain, lying, lustful thoughts, judging, condemning, gambling, gluttony, etc.



Are there any groups pushing for any of these to be declared "not a sin" by the church?  Are there any "lying affirming" churches?  How about "adultery affirming" churches?  Are there any websites where you can post a video explaining how Christians are "not all like that" when it comes to stealing?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> So HJ was being funny, thats fine.
> Most babes in Christ can understand this simple straight forward passage:
> 
> 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
> 
> New American Standard Bible (NASB)
> 
> 
> 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
> 
> Its not claiming to have the ability to judge who can and cannot go to heaven---its just simple scripture quoting!
> 
> Everyone that says a homosexual, a drunkard, thief, swindlers,etc  can inherit the kingdom of God is made a liar by this scripture.---but lets take note of verse 11. Such were some of you...guess what happened? The homosexual the swindlers the drunkards were washed and sanctified---They were changed in the twinkling of an eye! They were no longer homosexuals, swindlers, drunkards..Thats the Good News! Jesus made a way for all of us, including the homosexual...but they will be changed.



Strange that even with the free gift of grace we get into the legalistic aspects of Christianity. I'm one of the worse offenders. Maybe one day I'll believe in "Once saved, always saved." 
Like I said "it's a slow process." For me of course, I'm a slow learner.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you positive the interpreters got that one right? Have you even studies any of these terms?



Yes, and I have studied it quite a bit.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> Only straight people can behave like a homosexual.




I'm not so sure about that.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> I'm not so sure about that.



It is hard to tell the straight ones from the gay one.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> ... why or what about their sin is unforgivable? Is it just a lack of repentance?




Sorry I missed this before, AD.  It is not unforgivable.  Their salvation (just like yours, mine and everybody's) is hinged on repentance, however.  As hobbs27 noted:




hobbs27 said:


> So HJ was being funny, thats fine.
> Most babes in Christ can understand this simple straight forward passage:
> 
> 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
> 
> New American Standard Bible (NASB)
> 
> 
> 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
> 
> Its not claiming to have the ability to judge who can and cannot go to heaven---its just simple scripture quoting!
> 
> Everyone that says a homosexual, a drunkard, thief, swindlers,etc  can inherit the kingdom of God is made a liar by this scripture.---but lets take note of verse 11. Such were some of you...guess what happened? The homosexual the swindlers the drunkards were washed and sanctified---They were changed in the twinkling of an eye! They were no longer homosexuals, swindlers, drunkards..Thats the Good News! Jesus made a way for all of us, including the homosexual...but they will be changed.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Sorry I missed this before, AD.  It is not unforgivable.  Their salvation (just like yours, mine and everybody's) is hinged on repentance, however.  As hobbs27 noted:



What does that mean? How often is it required? Grace plus works? Was Hobbs27 hinting that God performs this change? Does just salvation itself cause this change? Does salvation change a sinner to a believer by grace in just a flash forever and ever? Hobbs said they will be changed. Will we all be changed? What about Christians that don't appear to be changed?
Did you look at my thread on "Repentance?"


----------



## HawgJawl

I was just being sarcastic when I posted this, but it appears that some of you agree with it to some degree.



HawgJawl said:


> Your comparison of homosexuals to alcoholics brings up a new issue.
> 
> If we apply the same standard to both sins;
> 
> The alcoholic must repent of being an alcoholic and abstain from drinking alcohol in order to be saved.
> 
> If an alcoholic attempts to accept Christ as their personal Lord and Savior without repenting of being an alcoholic, they will not be saved.
> 
> If an alcoholic repents but has no real intention of abstaining from alcohol in the future, they will not be saved.
> 
> Once an alcoholic repents and is saved, how many times can he backslide and drink alcohol afterward before he is no longer saved? (Or do we just fall back on the saying that he was never "really" saved?)



Or am I misunderstanding?

What if they do not change after "salvation"?


----------



## panfried0419

Centerpin you are cute in your close mindedness


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> Centerpin you are cute in your close mindedness



Is homosexuality a sin?


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> What does that mean? How often is it required? Grace plus works? Was Hobbs27 hinting that God performs this change? Does just salvation itself cause this change? Does salvation change a sinner to a believer by grace in just a flash forever and ever? Hobbs said they will be changed. Will we all be changed? What about Christians that don't appear to be changed?
> Did you look at my thread on "Repentance?"



None of this matters to your new favorite church (post 235.)  To them and churches like them, homosexuality is not a sin and requires no repentance.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> Centerpin you are cute in your close mindedness



Your dislike of Baptists is not cute.  You should ask your pastor to help you overcome it.


----------



## panfried0419

centerpin fan said:


> Is homosexuality a sin?



It doesn't condemn one to hades
That's my belief. But I'm sure you are going to tell me I am wrong. Your thought process and posts are what stears people from the Christian faith.


----------



## panfried0419

centerpin fan said:


> Your dislike of Baptists is not cute.  You should ask your pastor to help you overcome it.



I never said I disliked Baptist. My thoughts about you proven correct. But when a Baptisit preacher told me I wasn't on the path to heaven because I grew up in Wesleyan and Methodist my views changed. Never said I disliked Baptist:

Pick and choose what you want to read I guess


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> ...  a Baptisit preacher told me I wasn't on the path to heaven because I grew up in Wesleyan and Methodist ...



He was wrong.




panfried0419 said:


> Never said I disliked Baptist:



Maybe not, but you have been less than complimentary towards them in this thread and others.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> It doesn't condemn one to hades
> That's my belief. But I'm sure you are going to tell me I am wrong.



If you grew up Wesleyan, you should be well aware that _they_ would tell you you’re wrong.




panfried0419 said:


> Your thought process and posts are what stears people from the Christian faith.



I disagree.  The church has been preaching the gospel of repentance for 2,000 years.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> If you grew up Wesleyan, you should be well aware that _they_ would tell you you’re wrong.
> 
> I disagree.  The church has been preaching the gospel of repentance for 2,000 years.



Still no response about what homosexuality or repentance means according to the Bible? Do we get any help from the Holy Spirit to overcome our daily sins or repentance to include homosexuality or drunkardness? 
Why not worry about the long list of sins that most Christians have trouble with instead of homosexuality & drunkardness? Lust, anger, hatred, arrogance, not helping, not forgiving, cheating, coveting, selfishness, being a glutton, gossiping, greed, jealousy, and the terrible sin of slandermongering.
These and others that everyday Christians have trouble repenting and overcoming daily. I'm not worried about going out and killing someone but I could possibly be filled with hatred at any giving time. I'm not going to go out tonight and have homosexual sex but I could have lust in my heart.
I need  help and guidance from the Holy Spirit daily to overcome my sins, not the sins of others.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> Still no response about what homosexuality or repentance means according to the Bible?



You don't know what "homosexuality" means?

Regardless, if you don't see it as sin, the question of repentance is moot.




Artfuldodger said:


> Why not worry about the long list of sins that most Christians have trouble with instead of homosexuality ...



That question has been answered over and over again, in this thread and in others.  For the most recent answer, see post 218.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> You don't know what "homosexuality" means?
> 
> Regardless, if you don't see it as sin, the question of repentance is moot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That question has been answered over and over again, in this thread and in others.  For the most recent answer, see post 218.



For arguments sake I've just conceded, I've done some more research and God was truely talking about two gay people who love each other and live in a monogamous relationship. He wasn't talking about straight people going hog wild crazy and having sex with anything that moved. He wasn't talkng about about married people going all perverted on us. I see it differently now. 
OK, what should I do if I feel these terrible  sinners are taking over my Church? If the preacher talks the congregation into letting them become members, what should I do at that point?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> For arguments sake I've just conceded, I've done some more research and God was truely talking about two gay people who love each other and live in a monogamous relationship. He wasn't talking about straight people going hog wild crazy and having sex with anything that moved. He wasn't talikng about about married people going all perverted on us. I see it differently now.
> OK, what should I do if I feel these terrible  sinners are taking over my Church? If the preacher talks the congregation into letting them become members, what should I do at that point?



Leave, and find a church that preached/teaches sound doctrine.


----------



## rjcruiser

HawgJawl said:


> What if they do not change after "salvation"?



It wasn't true repentance.  What is the definition of repentence?  Turning away...changing direction.

You can't make a 180* turn and still be going the same direction.



panfried0419 said:


> Your thought process and posts are what stears people from the Christian faith.



The Bible is divisive. 



hobbs27 said:


> Leave, and find a church that preached/teaches sound doctrine.



Bingo.


----------



## HawgJawl

rjcruiser said:


> It wasn't true repentance.  What is the definition of repentence?  Turning away...changing direction.
> 
> You can't make a 180* turn and still be going the same direction.



Does that go for all sins?

Like I posted earlier, what about the alcoholic who "gets saved" but then returns to getting drunk?  Does his actions afterwards nullify his salvation?


----------



## Wild Turkey

The Avatar thing is wierd. Animal like beings from a different planet that worship fairys in a tree. Really.
Kinda pagonistic for person who obviously has different beliefs on the origin of the human race.


----------



## hobbs27

Wild Turkey said:


> The Avatar thing is wierd. Animal like beings from a different planet that worship fairys in a tree. Really.
> Kinda pagonistic for person who obviously has different beliefs on the origin of the human race.



Checkmate CPFan.....You're getting outrageous personal attacks now for standing firm to Gods word! Good job.


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Checkmate CPFan.....You're getting outrageous personal attacks now for standing firm to Gods word! Good job.


----------



## centerpin fan

Wild Turkey said:


> The Avatar thing is wierd. Animal like beings from a different planet that worship fairys in a tree. Really.
> Kinda pagonistic for person who obviously has different beliefs on the origin of the human race.



I don’t like the movie.  I just like using “Avatar avatar” in a sentence.  (I’m easily amused.)


----------



## Wild Turkey

Not a personal attack, just a wierd observation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> It wasn't true repentance.  What is the definition of repentence?  Turning away...changing direction.
> 
> You can't make a 180* turn and still be going the same direction.
> 
> 
> 
> The Bible is divisive.
> 
> 
> 
> Bingo.



OK I'm off to find a Church with fully repented sinners. Where should I start, 
The First Self-Righteous Church of ______?


----------



## rjcruiser

HawgJawl said:


> Does that go for all sins?
> 
> Like I posted earlier, what about the alcoholic who "gets saved" but then returns to getting drunk?  Does his actions afterwards nullify his salvation?



I'd say it depends.  Like those who believe in OSAS...or better said...if saved, always saved.  Those who fall back into a lifestyle of sin were never saved to begin with.

Can a person who repents and turns to Christ make mistakes?  Of course...we're still fighting sin.  But does that mean that we continue on in sin?  No...Look at Romans 6.



Wild Turkey said:


> The Avatar thing is wierd. Animal like beings from a different planet that worship fairys in a tree. Really.
> Kinda pagonistic for person who obviously has different beliefs on the origin of the human race.





Wild Turkey said:


> Not a personal attack, just a wierd observation.



Hmm...seems personal to me.

I guess it kinda follows the playbook of someone who realizes they can't win the argument...so they start attacking the person instead.  



Artfuldodger said:


> OK I'm off to find a Church with fully repented sinners. Where should I start,
> The First Self-Righteous Church of ______?



Again...we're not perfected until we reach heaven.  So...if you find a church that is full of perfect christians...I'd leave.


----------



## HawgJawl

rjcruiser said:


> I'd say it depends.  Like those who believe in OSAS...or better said...if saved, always saved.  Those who fall back into a lifestyle of sin were never saved to begin with.
> 
> Can a person who repents and turns to Christ make mistakes?  Of course...we're still fighting sin.  But does that mean that we continue on in sin?  No...Look at Romans 6.



If an addict repents and is "saved" but at some point later they become weak, succumb to temptation, and begin committing the sin of their perspective addiction once again, does that meant they were never really saved?


----------



## hobbs27

HawgJawl said:


> If an addict repents and is "saved" but at some point later they become weak, succumb to temptation, and begin committing the sin of their perspective addiction once again, does that meant they were never really saved?



 I will say this, if they were saved, at the time of their salvation they were no longer an addict but a newborn babe in Christ, in much need of love , support , and direction by the church. They will get those needs in a church that preaches sound doctrine and will not give in to temptation. If however they belong to a church that has conformed to the world and have not been allowed to grow in their relationship with Christ they become sleepers and are in danger of never advancing in their walk to be any good for the kingdom. it's not their fault as much as the Christians around them that stand by and allow them to commit sin against the Almighty God.  There will be plenty of chastisement to go around.

Ephesians 5:14 
14 for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says,

“Awake, O sleeper,
    and arise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”


----------



## Artfuldodger

If we all sin and there is no way to find a church of fully repented sinners, and if people start to sin too much, later on, then they were never saved, and we are on a constant and continueing path of    sanctification to become holy, how do we even know where to start? How do we find the right Church if they are all full of sinners? How do we know that their doctrine isn't false and the next Church is? It still sounds like picking and chooseing which sins we are OK with. We are ok with jealousy perhaps but not lust. We are ok with fornication but not homosexuality. If we can find a Church with Christians who have sin under total control, then I would agree, but I don't think we can. I see churches with women preachers, where is the same vengeance and nationwide campaign against them? Sure many Churches are but they aren't campaigning against it. People just go to a different Church.
I don't believe in the Trinity. Many Christians believe I'm not saved. I was saved in the Baptist Church so I guess OSAS doesn't apply because 45 years later I stopped believing Jesus was his Father. That means I was never saved. Where is the nationwide campaign to kick non-Trinitarians out of all the Christian Churches?


----------



## hummerpoo

centerpin fan said:


> I don’t like the movie.  I just like using “Avatar avatar” in a sentence.  (I’m easily amused.)



True, it is.

It's even amusing watching you be amused.


----------



## BT Charlie

centerpin fan said:


> If you grew up Wesleyan, you should be well aware that _they_ would tell you you’re wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree.  The church has been preaching the gospel of repentance for 2,000 years.



Centerpin Fan,  I am wondering to what extent, if any, you think the fire Israel speaks of in his "Behold I come quickly" thread, which I pulled up this evening, is applicable to us here in responding to PaleRider's worldview on how he believes Christ followers and the church should relate to homosexuals?  Not trying to muddy the water, just suggest a pre-fire pressure test of the defense of our hope.   Blessings.


----------



## Ronnie T

Re:  Homosexuality, sin, repentance, and salvation.

I've yet to see any newborn Christians who received a totally changed life the moment they were saved.  New born babes require nurture and tender care.  It becomes a process of trusting and depending upon their new Savior.  It's about studying to show themselves approved.

A newly saved drunk, homosexual, liar, stealer, murderer, or fornicator can trust that God will forgive them of any....... any sin they commit after their conversion, as long as they are sorry that they committed the sin, and wish/hope they never commit the sin again.

1John 1 and dozens of other scripture.

God can forgive what we cannot forgive.
God will put up with things that we cannot put up with.

But each person must be able to face God's will, and accept it.
If God condemns something, it's condemned.  No discussion.

But God forgives, and God is patient.  His patience is inhuman.
.


----------



## panfried0419

hobbs27 said:


> Leave, and find a church that preached/teaches sound doctrine.



Another reason why people turn from the Christian faith. People telling them that their church is "wrong"


----------



## hobbs27

panfried0419 said:


> Another reason why people turn from the Christian faith. People telling them that their church is "wrong"



If that's all it takes to give up on Christ, they never knew Christ.


----------



## panfried0419

hobbs27 said:


> If that's all it takes to give up on Christ, they never knew Christ.



Woah! Coming from the guy who said they need to leave their church! Hypocrite full steam ahead! :


----------



## Artfuldodger

My New Year's resolution was to be more spiritual in my journey. This thread has shown me to pursue my quest in that direction. To start with we can't even figure out what all of the Biblical legalism means. It went from Hebrew to Greek to English. Too many Churches and too many Bible versions for me to figure it all out. 
I'm thinking about switching my faith over to the "grace only" crowd. I'll take the Gracewalk over to the liberty of Calvary.
Mercy there was great and grace was free. I'm ready to surrender all and get further away from this legalism. 
The way I'm going I'm not makeing any progress. Like Ronnie said, I have never seen a 180 degree turn in a fellow Christian. Maybe some on this thread are stronger in their faith and have quit sinning. I haven't and it's startin' to worry me. Following the legalism route there will only be about 12 people in Heaven. I don't know what else to do but give my soul over to God. I've tried it the man way and it's not working. Gonna go break out that "Gracewalk book and re-read it.


----------



## hobbs27

panfried0419 said:


> Woah! Coming from the guy who said they need to leave their church! Hypocrite full steam ahead! :



Your claim is that people turn away from Christ because other people say their church is wrong. ( absent of sound doctrine). My first love is Jesus Christ, no mans opinion can cause a break in that love, if it did, then there was no love to begin with...understand?


----------



## BT Charlie

Ronnie T said:


> Re:  Homosexuality, sin, repentance, and salvation.
> 
> I've yet to see any newborn Christians who received a totally changed life the moment they were saved.  New born babes require nurture and tender care.  It becomes a process of trusting and depending upon their new Savior.  It's about studying to show themselves approved.
> 
> A newly saved drunk, homosexual, liar, stealer, murderer, or fornicator can trust that God will forgive them of any....... any sin they commit after their conversion, along as they are sorry that they committed the sin, and wish/hope they never
> 
> commit the sin again.
> 
> 1John 1 and dozens of other scripture.
> 
> God can forgive what we cannot forgive.
> God will put up with things that we cannot put up with.
> 
> 
> But each person must be able to face God's will, and accept it.
> If God condemns something, it's condemned.  No discussion.
> 
> But God forgives, and God is patient.  His patience is inhuman.
> .




Amen.

And having walked through such a tender time ... and still trekking today ... it seems so cruel, so permanent ... that "loving folk" would trick a people into blindness of sin.  Candy coating bad conduct...saying it's all ok...that surely will be tested in fire, with all the rest.

I receive Israel's timeless insights as assuring that Christ is knowable by all...that if we apply works as against any of another's sins, such will be tested,
 assuredly, in the fire.  And yet not once has he suggested that sin is not sin.

My older brother could break your nose with his fist and then stand you up and make you glad he bought you a beer and told you about what just happened as you wiped yourself up.    I think Israel may be like that.  Or not.


----------



## panfried0419

hobbs27 said:


> Your claim is that people turn away from Christ because other people say their church is wrong. ( absent of sound doctrine). My first love is Jesus Christ, no mans opinion can cause a break in that love, if it did, then there was no love to begin with...understand?



If you "love" Jesus Christ then don't judge others and advise them to leave their church. That's a good start.


----------



## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> If you "love" Jesus Christ then don't judge others and advise them to leave their church. That's a good start.



One beggar telling another beggar where there's food is not judging.  Similarly, one sinner telling another about the medicine of repentance is not judging.

If you deny repentance to sinners, you're not loving them.


----------



## HawgJawl

Please don't interpret this as an attack on organized religion or an attempt to make preachers look bad.  It's just that this type of thing gets more publicity and is therefore known by more people than the exact same sins being committed by regular church members.

I have seen a few preachers begging for forgiveness from their congregation when they have finally been caught in their respective favorite sin.  Sometimes they had been having affairs, sometimes they had been embezzling church funds, sometimes they had been arrested soliciting sodemy, etc.

The point is, I've heard these preachers explain succumbing to temptation and sinning.  I've never heard one of these preachers say that they were never really saved.


----------



## rjcruiser

HawgJawl said:


> If an addict repents and is "saved" but at some point later they become weak, succumb to temptation, and begin committing the sin of their perspective addiction once again, does that meant they were never really saved?



What is their life defined by?  Is it defined by their sin? or by Christ?

We are all sinners and will continue to struggle with it until we are glorified.  But...what are we defined by?  Our lives filled by the Holy Spirit? or our lives filled by sin and unrepentance?

Gal 5

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.


Pretty simple....do you live a life according to the flesh? or the spirit?



panfried0419 said:


> If you "love" Jesus Christ then don't judge others and advise them to leave their church. That's a good start.



But Christ tells us to judge.  John 7:24....Judge with Righteous Judgement.

But...based on your posts...you don't go to church do you?  



HawgJawl said:


> The point is, I've heard these preachers explain succumbing to temptation and sinning.  I've never heard one of these preachers say that they were never really saved.



Again, all men are tempted...all men sin.

Does this mean that they were not saved to begin with?  Maybe..maybe not.  How they respond to that sin...how they're life is characterized will determine whether their repentance is for show or true repentance.


----------



## Artfuldodger

If these other Churches aren't teaching sound doctrine, why not be on their case like ya'll are on the gays?  Churches not teaching sound doctrine would be far worse than a few gays trying to infiltrate a Church.
I would think ya'll would be on the doorsteps of the other Churches every Sunday telling them how wrong they are.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> What is their life defined by?  Is it defined by their sin? or by Christ?
> 
> We are all sinners and will continue to struggle with it until we are glorified.  But...what are we defined by?  Our lives filled by the Holy Spirit? or our lives filled by sin and unrepentance?
> 
> Gal 5
> 
> 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
> 
> 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
> 
> 
> Pretty simple....do you live a life according to the flesh? or the spirit?
> 
> 
> 
> But Christ tells us to judge.  John 7:24....Judge with Righteous Judgement.
> 
> But...based on your posts...you don't go to church do you?
> 
> 
> 
> Again, all men are tempted...all men sin.
> 
> Does this mean that they were not saved to begin with?  Maybe..maybe not.  How they respond to that sin...how they're life is characterized will determine whether their repentance is for show or true repentance.



So the way you see Salvation is totally based on repentance? It's ok to sin as long as you repent? 
This repentance thing is worth delving into, correct? It's worth learning how the Holy Spirit works it into our Sanctification. Is it a work and is some of it from the individual?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Gal 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

So when we see Christians doing any of those things listed in the verse above, this is proof they don't belong to Christ? Is that what verse 24 is saying? It doesn't say anything about repenting, just living.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> If these other Churches aren't teaching sound doctrine, why not be on their case like ya'll are on the gays?  Churches not teaching sound doctrine would be far worse than a few gays trying to infiltrate a Church.
> I would think ya'll would be on the doorsteps of the other Churches every Sunday telling them how wrong they are.



Who is on the gays case? Is it not better and more loving to spread the word of God, than to hide it and encourage someone to continue living in a way that will keep them from the kingdom of heaven?

To support sin over Gods word is hateful.


----------



## centerpin fan

rjcruiser said:


> But...based on your posts...you don't go to church do you?



He was going to 12 Stone:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=704425

12 Stone is a Wesleyan church, though, which holds the traditional view that homosexuality is sin.


----------



## centerpin fan

BT Charlie said:


> Centerpin Fan,  I am wondering to what extent, if any, you think the fire Israel speaks of in his "Behold I come quickly" thread, which I pulled up this evening, is applicable to us here in responding to PaleRider's worldview on how he believes Christ followers and the church should relate to homosexuals?  Not trying to muddy the water, just suggest a pre-fire pressure test of the defense of our hope.   Blessings.



I’m not sure I understand your question.  I read that thread, but I don’t see the relationship.  Maybe I’m missing something.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> If these other Churches aren't teaching sound doctrine, why not be on their case like ya'll are on the gays?  Churches not teaching sound doctrine would be far worse than a few gays trying to infiltrate a Church.
> I would think ya'll would be on the doorsteps of the other Churches every Sunday telling them how wrong they are.



I think you'll see plenty of threads on here condemning false doctrine. 

That being said, it isn't just "a few gays trying to infiltrate the church."  



Artfuldodger said:


> So the way you see Salvation is totally based on repentance? It's ok to sin as long as you repent?
> This repentance thing is worth delving into, correct? It's worth learning how the Holy Spirit works it into our Sanctification. Is it a work and is some of it from the individual?



Romans 6

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.



Artfuldodger said:


> So when we see Christians doing any of those things listed in the verse above, this is proof they don't belong to Christ? Is that what verse 24 is saying? It doesn't say anything about repenting, just living.



Not doing...obviously, Christians are going to sin.  But is their life marked by sin? or is it marked by Christ?  



centerpin fan said:


> He was going to 12 Stone:
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=704425
> 
> 12 Stone is a Wesleyan church, though, which holds the traditional view that homosexuality is sin.



Ahh..missed that one...wonder if he's still going.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Nothing here about repentance, just to quit sinning.


----------



## Artfuldodger

1 John 3:6 
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 

1 John 2:4 
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 

James 4:17 
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. 

Galatians 5:19-26 
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 

Matthew 7:21-23 
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Matthew 5:29-30 
If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into he11. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into he11. 

Matthew 5:21-22 
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the he11 of fire. 

Matthew 5:48  
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. 

None of these verses say anything about repentance. They say We should not sin. We should keep God's commandments. We must do the will of the Father. We must be perfect.
Not much wiggle room in the verses above. If you can't meet the expectations of the verses above then you do not know God, you are a liar, God will say he never knew you. 
If you can't quit sinning, you are doomed. Might as well quit worring about the plank in your neighbor's eye.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 6
> 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
> 
> Nothing here about repentance, just to quit sinning.



Really?  That's what repentence is all about.

The beginning of Romans is all about justification by faith....the fact that God's grace covers our sins.  But, that salvation/justification through faith is not a "free to sin" pass.  True saving faith is represented by a changed life.  A life of repentance...a life that is more than lip service...a life that is striving to please God.  And when we do stumble...we get back up with God's help and keep running the race.


Romans 6 is why OSAS should be better put as if saved always saved.  Because a person who walked the aisle and said a prayer isn't going to go on living a life filled with sin if they're genuinely saved.


----------



## Artfuldodger

The word Metanoia, is the Greek word, for Repentance.  Few words have ever caused more controversy and started more arguments.  In fact, repentance has become such an untouchable idol in the church, that few would even examine its meaning to see if what we have been taught is true or not.  It’s almost like a drug in the Church, that you can paint the most beautiful picture of God’s grace, Love and his generosity, as long as it is only reserved for those who spend hours in knee bruising. navel gazing, snot-dripping repentance.

http://christianstt.com/by-his-blood-metanoia-repentance/


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> Really?  That's what repentence is all about.
> 
> The beginning of Romans is all about justification by faith....the fact that God's grace covers our sins.  But, that salvation/justification through faith is not a "free to sin" pass.  True saving faith is represented by a changed life.  A life of repentance...a life that is more than lip service...a life that is striving to please God.  And when we do stumble...we get back up with God's help and keep running the race.
> 
> 
> Romans 6 is why OSAS should be better put as if saved always saved.  Because a person who walked the aisle and said a prayer isn't going to go on living a life filled with sin if they're genuinely saved.



Define "filled with sin" using Bible verses. Either someone is saved or they aren't. There is no such thing as "half-saved." Either people stop sinning or they don't. Either people are changed or they aren't. There is no gray areas concerning salvation. 
Again I would like to see verses that talk about someone being filled with sin. Is that one a day or ten every Saturday night?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Who is on the gays case? Is it not better and more loving to spread the word of God, than to hide it and encourage someone to continue living in a way that will keep them from the kingdom of heaven?
> 
> To support sin over Gods word is hateful.




You are OK with what you know enough about the use of the word "homosexual" in the Bible in your confidence it will keep them out of the Kingdom of Heaven?
The other sins on the list will not keep us from seeing the Kingdom of Heaven? 
If we aren't willing to support a sin, then we should not support any sin. Christians should not sin. We should not even associate with any Christian that sins regardless of how often they repent.


----------



## Artfuldodger

What or where is the line drawn in the sand of how many sins we can commit and not be living a "life of sin" or we aren't "filled with sin?" How is man to repent? If a Christian sins, then he just didn't get enough of the Holy Spirit to help him quit. He just got a little bit of the spirit, therefore, he was never saved. Does the Holy Spirit help me repent? If I don't repent then was I never elected?
What are the basic guidelines for all of this. Does the Bible spell it all out? I need help doing this, not general verses and personal thoughts. I need to know how many sins am I alloted in a week and still get to Heaven. How often do I repent and confess? Is every Saturday night after my weekly bath OK? Am I getting too Legal with my request? Should I just look at it from my heart? Should it be more of a spiritual thing between me an God and not such a physical/flesh thing? Doesn't every Christian know whats right or wrong within themselves? Isn't it written in our hearts?


----------



## panfried0419

Rjcruiser I go every Sunday


----------



## BT Charlie

centerpin fan said:


> I’m not sure I understand your question.  I read that thread, but I don’t see the relationship.  Maybe I’m missing something.



My bad, CPF.  If you don't mind, I'll send a PM when I get time.  I respect your opinion and it would be very helpful and beneficial to me to work through my question with you. Many thanks.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> Define "filled with sin" using Bible verses. Either someone is saved or they aren't. There is no such thing as "half-saved." Either people stop sinning or they don't. Either people are changed or they aren't. There is no gray areas concerning salvation.
> Again I would like to see verses that talk about someone being filled with sin. Is that one a day or ten every Saturday night?



Luke 6

43 “For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, 44 for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. 45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.


What kind of fruit do you have?



panfried0419 said:


> Rjcruiser I go every Sunday


----------



## ambush80

Artfuldodger said:


> Define "filled with sin" using Bible verses. Either someone is saved or they aren't. There is no such thing as "half-saved." Either people stop sinning or they don't. Either people are changed or they aren't. There is no gray areas concerning salvation.
> Again I would like to see verses that talk about someone being filled with sin. Is that one a day or ten every Saturday night?




_No one who asks God for forgiveness can be confident that they won’t commit the same sin again. In fact, our natures are so contaminated by sin that we often do. When Peter asked Jesus whether we are obligated to forgive a person who sins against us seven times (Peter’s “seven times” more than doubled the rabbinic prescription), Jesus said: “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven” (Matthew 18:22 NKJV)._


By my math, that's.......490 times.


----------



## Artfuldodger

ambush80 said:


> _No one who asks God for forgiveness can be confident that they won’t commit the same sin again. In fact, our natures are so contaminated by sin that we often do. When Peter asked Jesus whether we are obligated to forgive a person who sins against us seven times (Peter’s “seven times” more than doubled the rabbinic prescription), Jesus said: “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven” (Matthew 18:22 NKJV)._
> 
> 
> By my math, that's.......490 times.



Well at least that puts a number on something. I keep getting these vague answers on what it takes to be a Christian and just actually how much sin I can perform but no one can give me concrete Biblical data. Just some vague Bible verse and their personal feelings.
Well I showed a whole list of verses that says no sin is allowed by Christians and no one responded. I keep asking exactly what a  homosexual is according to the Bible's definition and no one responded. I keep asking what the Bible's definition of repentance is and nobody responded.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> Luke 6
> 
> 43 “For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, 44 for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. 45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
> 
> 
> What kind of fruit do you have?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I feel in my heart I produce good fruit. I try to live right, help others, forgive others, obedience to God, and show love to others.
> 
> Somehow I don't feel that verse is about "not sinning" but about "good living." Can a person have lust in his heart and cheat on his income tax but also forgive and help his neighbor? I do still sin and I do feel bad when I do sin. I get confused about the whole Christian concept when I read the verses like I posted in #294 that says we can't sin. I read about God's grace and Jesus dying on the cross for our sins. Then I read about blessed assurance, freedom in Christ, surrendering all to Christ, stop worrying about stuff like this, give your heart to God, trust God, on and on. One Christian is telling me my freedom  and assurance is from God's grace and another is telling me it's about not living a life of sin. I thought Jesus died for my sins. Where's my freedom if I must worry about not having enough fruit? If I don't have enough fruit, then I was never saved to begin with and will go to He11. It's like an enigma. It's like a religious rollercoaster. I'm constantly wondering if I'm making the grade.
> 
> What about  other verses defining "filled with sin" and do you have any ideas on the verses I listed in post #294?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> You are OK with what you know enough about the use of the word "homosexual" in the Bible in your confidence it will keep them out of the Kingdom of Heaven?


 Yes.



> The other sins on the list will not keep us from seeing the Kingdom of Heaven?


Notice the list is lifestyle sins, all those lifestyles will keep a person from inheriting the kingdom, unless they change their lifestyle which can be done with help from God.



> If we aren't willing to support a sin, then we should not support any sin. Christians should not sin. We should not even associate with any Christian that sins regardless of how often they repent.



Let's say for instance a homosexual or drunkard has give up their lifestyle and are living a Christian life, then they stumble. They will feel burdened, hurt, and will seek forgiveness and help in walking away from that sin. They will not fall back into that lifestyle of unrepentant homosexuality & or  drunkeness if they have truly been saved, and truly have Christ in them and them in Christ.
So say sayeth the bible
.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Some Hindus produce good fruit, that doesn't mean  they are going to Heaven. I see good fruit as being a little different from sinning. A lukewarm Christian could produce good fruit and very little sin or produce more sin and less good fruit.
So if we can't come up with a concrete figure on sin, what about a concrete figure on 'good fruit?" How much of that good fruit will get me into Heaven?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> Notice the list is lifestyle sins, all those lifestyles will keep a person from inheriting the kingdom, unless they change their lifestyle which can be done with help from God.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's say for instance a homosexual or drunkard has give up their lifestyle and are living a Christian life, then they stumble. They will feel burdened, hurt, and will seek forgiveness and help in walking away from that sin. They will not fall back into that lifestyle of unrepentant homosexuality & or  drunkeness if they have truly been saved, and truly have Christ in them and them in Christ.
> So say sayeth the bible
> .



So you've divided sin into categories? Lifestyle sin is unforgivin and little daily sins are forgivin? Is there a Biblical definition of Lifestyle sin vs little daily sins? What would you consider lust or jealousy? Is it the sin or how often you do it?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> So you've divided sin into categories? A Lifestyle sin is unforgivin and little daily sins are forgivin? Is there a Biblical definition of Lifestyle sin vs little daily sins? What would you consider lust or jealousy? Is it the sin or how often you do it?



I see your eyes are closed, and I'm tired of stating the obvious over and over. Art I didn't write the book, if you don't like what's in it, take it up with the author. See ya on another topic soon and take care.


----------



## ambush80

Artfuldodger said:


> So you've divided sin into categories? Lifestyle sin is unforgivin and little daily sins are forgivin? Is there a Biblical definition of Lifestyle sin vs little daily sins? What would you consider lust or jealousy? Is it the sin or how often you do it?





hobbs27 said:


> I see your eyes are closed, and I'm tired of stating the obvious over and over. Art I didn't write the book, if you don't like what's in it, take it up with the author. See ya on another topic soon and take care.



My daughter woke up crying last night saying she was scared of the shadows in her room.  I told her to close her eyes and then she could see whatever she wanted to.  Faith of a child, Art.  Faith of a child.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> I feel in my heart I produce good fruit. I try to live right, help others, forgive others, obedience to God, and show love to others.
> 
> Somehow I don't feel that verse is about "not sinning" but about "good living." Can a person have lust in his heart and cheat on his income tax but also forgive and help his neighbor? I do still sin and I do feel bad when I do sin. I get confused about the whole Christian concept when I read the verses like I posted in #294 that says we can't sin. I read about God's grace and Jesus dying on the cross for our sins. Then I read about blessed assurance, freedom in Christ, surrendering all to Christ, stop worrying about stuff like this, give your heart to God, trust God, on and on. One Christian is telling me my freedom  and assurance is from God's grace and another is telling me it's about not living a life of sin. I thought Jesus died for my sins. Where's my freedom if I must worry about not having enough fruit? If I don't have enough fruit, then I was never saved to begin with and will go to He11. It's like an enigma. It's like a religious rollercoaster. I'm constantly wondering if I'm making the grade.
> 
> What about  other verses defining "filled with sin" and do you have any ideas on the verses I listed in post #294?



It's both of these things.  Go and sin no more...but trust that Jesus' death on the cross covered your sins.  If you ask...He is faithful to forgive.  Christ is our propitiation.  He's took our punishment...bore it on the cross...and conquered death...so that we might have eternal life.

Am I broken over my sin?  Yes.  Do I wonder sometimes if my sins are too much for Christ's death to cover?  Yes.  But I must rid myself of those thoughts of doubt....and know that Christ covers all of my sins.  That is what faith is all about.

As far as the verse in 294...I'll have to look at that.  Of the top of my head, look at the context of the passage...and I don't think it is saying you can't sin again...ever (because that would be impossible).


----------



## ambush80

Artfuldodger said:


> Well at least that puts a number on something. I keep getting these vague answers on what it takes to be a Christian and just actually how much sin I can perform but no one can give me concrete Biblical data. Just some vague Bible verse and their personal feelings.
> Well I showed a whole list of verses that says no sin is allowed by Christians and no one responded. I keep asking exactly what a  homosexual is according to the Bible's definition and no one responded. I keep asking what the Bible's definition of repentance is and nobody responded.



I feel ya, brother.


----------



## hummerpoo

Art,

Counting sins, repentences, etc....I think your New Year's Resolution is shot.


----------



## panfried0419

Artful I'm with ya brother. It kills how so many self centered self righteous folks come on here and act like they live a sinless life. I'm a Christian and live by faith and know I sin. That's what prayer is for. It doesnt matter,White black green yellow straight gay, as long as you believe that Jesus is Lord and savior I believe all is well. Anyone can post bible scripture.


----------



## Israel

The being of a new creation is instantaneous.
The manifestation of such...well, I believe we are _all_ finding out.
The question then becomes...how do "I" grow in this life...without impeding another?
What gives offense?... let alone to consider...is there anything at all to be done to encourage?
To which, it appears, I most often hear..."YOU" grow...and it will accomplish all I (the Lord) desire toward any other.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I can only hope and pray that one day I will live as half as good as some of my fellow Christians do. I'm sure there are plenty of Christians that do live twice as good as I do. I would imagine they are meek & humble.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I see your eyes are closed, and I'm tired of stating the obvious over and over. Art I didn't write the book, if you don't like what's in it, take it up with the author. See ya on another topic soon and take care.



My eyes, I've asked   for guidance on and a few things and no one responds. You and others  have and thanks. 
Back to lifestyle sin, how much or is there a number of sins one must perform before it is considered lifestyle sinning, and thus never seeing Heaven, by God's description? You didn't write the book but you do understand it. How far can I sin before I don't see the Kingdom of God? We do have verses that say Christians can't. I agree I've read them.
Do you believe the amount of lifestyle sins are offset by good fruit? You mention good fruit, if I cheat my neighbor but help an old lady fix her car, do they offset each other?
Will these good works off set enough of my lifestyle sins to let me enter Heaven?
Are lifestyle sins mainly one big sin like drunkenness or homosexuality that we struggle with from time to time or a bunch of little sins we commit daily? I'm trying to picture the difference. 
In other words, would living a life of smaller sins still be considered a life of sin? Sins such as cheating, not helping, not forgiving, lust, slander, gossip, overeating, being effeminate, dishonesty, & living in excess. 
My point is I sin daily, am I living in a lifestyle sin way of life?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Art,
> 
> Counting sins, repentences, etc....I think your New Year's Resolution is shot.



It was short lived. Let me ask you, what do the verses mean that I posted in post#294 that say Christians aren't allowed to sin? Do you believe your definition of the words  "homosexual" and "repentance" line up with the Biblical definition? How much of our repentance comes from the Holy Spirit?
I would like answers on these definitions and what interpretations and research you used to define them from anyone wanting to respond.

I thought of one more question I never got an answer on.
Would a straight effeminate metro-sexual male, be living the same life of sin as a macho-homosexual male? Considering that neither was willing to repent and change his lifestyle.


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## Artfuldodger

Look at theses verses and see if they say "unless you repent" at the end of them.

REVELATION 21
  8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

GALATIANS 5
  19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
  20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
  21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God [Heaven].

1-CORINTHIANS 6
  9 Know ye not that the unrighteous [those that reject Christ Jesus] shall not inherit the kingdom of God [Heaven]? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [catamites], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [sodomites],
  10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God [Heaven].

How does all of that work with the next verse? Nothing is said of repentance in the next verse, is it part of sanctification?

  11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified [rendered innocent] in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


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## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> It kills how so many self centered self righteous folks come on here and act like they live a sinless life.



There's not a Christian on this board who thinks he lives a sinless life.


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## Artfuldodger

I could go on and on and quote many many verses that say sinners will go to He11 or die and the righteous will go to Heaven or everlasting life and never see anything about repentance in those particular verses.
True I an also find many many verses about repenting. Again I can find many many verses about God grace and all of our sins being washed and forgiven.

Colossians 3:5-10 – Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth; fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness; which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them. But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him. 

2 Timothy 3:1-5 - For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

Revelation 21:8 – But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Deceit/lying – Many have fallen bait to the sin of lying. The Bible says that liars will be thrown into the lake of fire. Lies come in many forms. Lies to protect one’s innocence is quite commonplace. Flattery is a form of lying. I have seen preachers flatter newcomers in the church to entice them to come back. Lying to your children by telling them that Santa Claus brings presents at Christmas time is a lie. It is quite a discouragement when a child finds out that there is no Santa Claus. Santa Claus has become the Christmas idol, yet he doesn’t exist. If you tell your child the lies regarding Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, and the tooth fairy and also teach them the truth about Jesus Christ, what is going to happen when they realize that what they were told about Santa, the Easter bunny, and the tooth fairy were all lies? They may end up believing that Jesus is a lie because it also takes faith to believe in Him. A person who is constantly exaggerating is lying. Lying is a sin that will keep a person out of Heaven. Whether you’re lying on your income taxes or getting your 12-year-old son a discount for those that are “11 and below” by telling them that your son is 11 it is lying.


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## Artfuldodger

Repentance (Lordship and Non-lordship Definitions)

Hodges even claims that “the standard Greek-English dictionary does not list any New Testament passage where the meaning ‘to change one’s mind’ actually occurs.”[3]  He is content to allow metanoia to be interpreted as a turning from sin, only repentance has no bearing on salvation, rather only on “fellowship with [God].

Lordship advocates work to gather all the biblical data on repentance and define it as “a turning to God from sin that involves a change of heart and purpose inevitably resulting in a change of behavior.”[5]  MacArthur agrees that repentance is not “merely shame or sorrow for sin, although genuine repentance always involves an element of remorse” (Rom. 2:3-4).[6]  This sorrowful repentance is not merely a human work, “it is, like every element of redemption, a sovereignly bestowed gift of God.”

http://electexiles.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/repentance-lordship-and-non-lordship-definitions/


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## HandgunHTR

Art, I wish you were a bit closer to Atlanta.  I would love to buy you lunch and talk about Justification and Sanctification.  I think the answers you are seeking lay somewhere in the understanding of those two things.

It is a very difficult topic to cover on an internet forum because it is one of those discussions that "evolves" and common discovery is dang near impossible.

P.S.  the invitation is open to anyone who wishes to take me up on it.  I promise that I am not a preacher, bible thumper, or one of those "pushy" Christians who will try to push my beliefs down your throat.  I listen very well and have been told that I do a good job of explaining difficult biblical concepts (but they may have just been being nice to me).  Finally, I will always pick up the tab.


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## Artfuldodger

HandgunHTR said:


> Art, I wish you were a bit closer to Atlanta.  I would love to buy you lunch and talk about Justification and Sanctification.  I think the answers you are seeking lay somewhere in the understanding of those two things.
> 
> It is a very difficult topic to cover on an internet forum because it is one of those discussions that "evolves" and common discovery is dang near impossible.
> 
> P.S.  the invitation is open to anyone who wishes to take me up on it.  I promise that I am not a preacher, bible thumper, or one of those "pushy" Christians who will try to push my beliefs down your throat.  I listen very well and have been told that I do a good job of explaining difficult biblical concepts (but they may have just been being nice to me).  Finally, I will always pick up the tab.



It is a difficult subject and although  this forum might not be the best media, many might benefit from your insight. I would love to have lunch with you to discuss grace, repentance, & works but not "convert to my Church denomination" type stuff.
I'm open to any and all concepts. The reason I would rather discuss things on the forum is because in the past when people want private meetings they always turn out to be fringe members of something like Messianic Jews or some other belief. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Now getting back to Justification and Sanctification, do you see repentance as a part of that and how much is the Holy Spirit involved?

You ever notice the English language never has a word to describe many Greek words used in the Bible, yet we still randomly pick one to use anyway?

Misunderstandings About Repentance
The tragedy of it is that we have no one English word that reproduces exactly the meaning and atmosphere of the Greek word. The Greek has a word meaning to be sorry (metamelomai) which is exactly our English word repent and it is used of Judas in Mt 27:3"

If God speaks of Himself as repenting, from blessing and judgment, then maybe our religious ideas of what it means to repent are wrong.

http://www.acts17-11.com/repent_xtra.html


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## Artfuldodger

HandgunHTR said:


> Art, I wish you were a bit closer to Atlanta.  I would love to buy you lunch and talk about Justification and Sanctification.  I think the answers you are seeking lay somewhere in the understanding of those two things.
> 
> It is a very difficult topic to cover on an internet forum because it is one of those discussions that "evolves" and common discovery is dang near impossible.
> 
> P.S.  the invitation is open to anyone who wishes to take me up on it.  I promise that I am not a preacher, bible thumper, or one of those "pushy" Christians who will try to push my beliefs down your throat.  I listen very well and have been told that I do a good job of explaining difficult biblical concepts (but they may have just been being nice to me).  Finally, I will always pick up the tab.



I might have jumped the gun on your invitation. Judging from your sig line verse, I don't think you are trying to lead one to a certain denomination, just the truth. I apologize for suggesting your motive in a meeting.

Part of your Sig line:
3For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Now the "washing of regeneration, and renewing" I'm truly interested in.


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## Artfuldodger

The basis of deeds, bearing fruit, righteousness, works, doing good, not sinning. Things or actions we must do to see the Kingdom of God, correct?

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Saved by God's mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

I've already picked up on two key words, "mercy" as in "God's mercy" and "by" as in "by the Holy Spirit." Please tell me what else there is.
It's either from "them" or "by" me.  It's starting to get really easy unless I'm reading this incorrectly.


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## Artfuldodger

It is crucially important that we understand repentance is not a work we do to earn salvation. No one can repent and come to God unless God pulls that person to Himself (John 6:44). Acts 5:31 and 11:18 indicate that repentance is something God gives—it is only possible because of His grace. No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God's longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/repentance.html#ixzz2qiroSPp0


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## Artfuldodger

Matthew 23:27
"How horrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees! You hypocrites! You are like whitewashed graves that look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of dead people's bones and every kind of impurity.

metanoia: change of mind, repentance

 change in the inner man.


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## Israel

Yesterday, when I was away from home overnight, and the temps were going to drop again (though not so severely), I thought about the water pipes. I thought how the water freezes in exposed pipes. I thought about buried pipes...how the ground keeps them warm.
I thought about depth needed. I thought about how, when I lived up north a footing had to be poured below the frost line. I thought about what that meant. I thought about foundations that would heave and disturb the house were they not laid deep enough. I thought about how my own house gets disturbed at times, how cracks show, how floors buckle, how I "trip" and stumble within myself, to be shown outwardly, in word and deed, when frost penetrates deeper than I was prepared for.

I thought about "because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall grow _cold_" and how, if we let, or discover in these times of abounding "iniquity"...where everything seems out of plumb and square, and my own only recourse is to try to show  "my own house" square by rushing about to square up walls, repair floors, patch over cracks...all quick fixes; without ever stopping...stopping...stopping 
to consider the depth of the foundation I have built upon...I will still live in a drafty house...and be an example to others of only poor workmanship. I might even unknowingly encourage others to poor craftsmanship. And in that...even...foolishly find a comfort when they are shivering in a drafty house..."well, I am not as bad off as they, I must be doing at least "pretty good". When the truth may well be all of my poor building was precisely initiated to look better, appear warmer, show off...as its sole impetus.

No one sees the depth of another's foundation till it is revealed. Is it any wonder Paul was concerned with foundation? Is it any wonder, that when hearing of faults and sin troubling a congregation Paul didn't thunder on high...but said "
2Co_12:21  And lest, when I come again, _my God will humble me among you_, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. 

Is it not Paul in saying..."humble me among you"...what did I miss in the impartation of what I know to be true? Where did I fail as a builder...and leave you to such drafty consequences? What will be gone through, burnt up, trashed, discarded as useless in "humble me among you"...and when I see what bit of "self" I had overlooked and allowed mixed in the foundation so that this building is now so out of kilter, askew, unfit as a worthy temple...well, what I (may see)...is that although Paul was willing to attribute their failures to his own workmanship...and enter into that humbling...there will be a great wailing...and the tearing down that he endured within himself...they would also have to experience.
Paul knew the Christ never produces sin.
And so, if he saw sin in what he was responsible for...even if he might, in the discerning be led to casually...perhaps even eagerly...want to embrace the notion...well I see it is "out there"...but not in me...he didn't. Like his Lord, he knew the remedy was not simply in pointing it out...but being the remedy, in his own self.
Is it any wonder he discovered he "endured these things for the elect's sake"? Is it any wonder he said he made up "in his own flesh what remained of the sufferings of Christ on behalf of his body, the church"?

God judges what is outside the Church.
If we would, perhaps, if we could, be made into what is willing to be torn down and leveled amongst one another, iniquity abandoned when seen as inequity perpetuated "stand not so close to me for I am holier than thou"...a building might indeed be manifest in which so many cold souls seeking warmth by any rubbing against one another...even in the most lascivious ways, might look to a  city set on a hill and say..."ahh, a warm place in the sun...it is what I have always desired, I must turn aside and behold this great sight".
And in the turning...and seeking...and seeing...be reborn.


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## panfried0419

centerpin fan said:


> There's not a Christian on this board who thinks he lives a sinless life.



Are  kidding me?


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## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> Are  kidding me?



Nope.

If you disagree, quote a member saying he lives a sinless life (or any words to that effect.)


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## Artfuldodger

Do Christians Sin (1 John 1:8 vs. 1 John 3:9)?
Sinless Perfection

The issue of sinless perfection causes somewhat of a rift between evangelicals. Conservative fundamentalists argue that Christians are positionally sanctified since we're indwelt with the Holy Spirit at salvation, but we won't be experientially sanctified (made perfect) until we get to heaven. On the other hand, many charismatics believe that Christians can receive a "second blessing" whereby they receive the "filling" of the Spirit at some point following salvation at which they reach sinless perfection. (Conservatives also believe in repeated filling of the Spirit, but only as it applies to restoring temporal fellowship with God by confession of sin, as explained in 1 John 1:9.) 

However, there is a concrete (yet subtle) answer to this question in the scriptures. Interestingly enough, this answer first appears in a form which seems to indicate that the scriptures are contradicting themselves.

1 John 1:8

1 John 1:8 says, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

1 John 3:9

However, 1 John 3:9 says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

At first glance, this appears to present a glaring contradiction. Do Christians sin, or not? In one verse, John tells his Christian audience that we all sin. Then, in the very same letter, he says that if we're really Christians, we can't continue to sin.

Inadequate Explanations

I've heard many inadequate explanations for this passage. The best of these weak arguments says that the key to the interpretation is the tense of the verb used in 1 John 3:9. It says we can't "continue" to sin. In other words, this argument continues, when we sin and confess it, we won't be repeating that same sin again regularly. However, this proves of little comfort to many Christians who find they're confessing some of the same sins almost every day. In fact, this argument seems to serve only to make some true believers question their salvation.

http://www.christiandataresources.com/christianssin.htm


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## hummerpoo

In reference to #317, #318, #319, and #321.

There are no right answers to wrong questions.
You seem to have recognized that.





Artfuldodger said:


> The basis of deeds, bearing fruit, righteousness, works, doing good, not sinning. Things or actions we must do to see the Kingdom of God, correct?
> 
> He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
> 
> Saved by God's mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.
> 
> I've already picked up on two key words, "mercy" as in "God's mercy" and "by" as in "by the Holy Spirit." Please tell me what else there is.It's either from "them" or "by" me.  It's starting to get really easy unless I'm reading this incorrectly.




You identified the impetus ………….……mercy
 and the implement ………………..………Holy Spirit
 but skipped right over the intent…….…regeneration


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## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> Are  kidding me?



Do you still go to 12 Stone?


----------



## Israel

Evidently the scribes and pharisees had enough theatrical training to deceive the simple. But not Jesus.
Folks may not have particularly liked the scribes and pharisees, but maybe they couldn't quite put their finger on their odiousness. They may have even thought "those folks are holy, they know the scriptures and keep the law, as far as I can see...but...to tell you the truth, I wouldn't much care to be like them. Dour. Sour. I like the company of drunks and harlots a bit more...I guess I am going to judgment...but oh well, I just don't have whatever it takes to be like them...I just like "fun" too much...and can't quite get away from the notion that life should have some joy in it"

I have had this pendulum swing in myself. 
Oh, to see Jesus!
Seriously knowing...life is truly...for joy!
With a face set like flint for Jerusalem...to behold the joy set before him!


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Do Christians Sin (1 John 1:8 vs. 1 John 3:9)?
> Sinless Perfection
> 
> The issue of sinless perfection causes somewhat of a rift between evangelicals. Conservative fundamentalists argue that Christians are positionally sanctified since we're indwelt with the Holy Spirit at salvation, but we won't be experientially sanctified (made perfect) until we get to heaven. On the other hand, many charismatics believe that Christians can receive a "second blessing" whereby they receive the "filling" of the Spirit at some point following salvation at which they reach sinless perfection. (Conservatives also believe in repeated filling of the Spirit, but only as it applies to restoring temporal fellowship with God by confession of sin, as explained in 1 John 1:9.)
> 
> However, there is a concrete (yet subtle) answer to this question in the scriptures. Interestingly enough, this answer first appears in a form which seems to indicate that the scriptures are contradicting themselves.
> 
> 1 John 1:8
> 
> 1 John 1:8 says, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
> 
> 1 John 3:9
> 
> However, 1 John 3:9 says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
> 
> At first glance, this appears to present a glaring contradiction. Do Christians sin, or not? In one verse, John tells his Christian audience that we all sin. Then, in the very same letter, he says that if we're really Christians, we can't continue to sin.
> 
> Inadequate Explanations
> 
> I've heard many inadequate explanations for this passage. The best of these weak arguments says that the key to the interpretation is the tense of the verb used in 1 John 3:9. It says we can't "continue" to sin. In other words, this argument continues, when we sin and confess it, we won't be repeating that same sin again regularly. However, this proves of little comfort to many Christians who find they're confessing some of the same sins almost every day. In fact, this argument seems to serve only to make some true believers question their salvation.
> 
> http://www.christiandataresources.com/christianssin.htm



If Israel doesn't object to my picking up on his analogy; you poured a perfectly good foundation, the following morning, you have arrived with 4 semi's and a crane prepared to set a two story prefab house on your new foundation which is at 10% of its intended strength.  Give it time to set (7 days = 50%; 28 days= 90%).  That's concrete, the spiritual strength curve is much flatter.


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## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> In reference to #317, #318, #319, and #321.
> 
> There are no right answers to wrong questions.
> You seem to have recognized that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You identified the impetus ………….……mercy
> and the implement ………………..………Holy Spirit
> but skipped right over the intent…….…regeneration



I didn't consider them wrong questions and do want answers to them. Let's start with the verses that say Christians don't sin.

I never skipped over regeneration it was a part of post # 325, 326, 327, & 328.

5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Repentance, regeneration, and sanctification are very important and overlap and are gifts from God.


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> I didn't consider them wrong questions and do want answers to them. Let's start with the verses that say Christians don't sin.
> 
> I never skipped over regeneration it was a part of post # 325, 326, 327, & 328.
> 
> 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
> 
> Repentance, regeneration, and sanctification are very important and overlap and are gifts from God.





hobbs27 said:


> I see your eyes are closed, and I'm tired of stating the obvious over and over. Art I didn't write the book, if you don't like what's in it, take it up with the author.



ditto


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## Artfuldodger

So instead of helping me by opening my eyes, it's better to just quit trying? 
I just asked some basic questions and the answer was, the questions have no answers. I'll ask on a different thread where I will receive an answer. 
The only question I really need an answer is about the verses that say a Christian can't sin. I'll wait for RJ. He usually helps.
My eyes have been open to the correct Biblical truth for about 10 years now. Before that they were closed. I'm always willing to see the other side of one's beliefs.

1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Galatians 5:19-26
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Matthew 5:29-30
If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into he11. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into he11.

Matthew 5:21-22
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the he11 of fire.

Matthew 5:48
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


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## HandgunHTR

Art,

I will take a stab at it, but be aware I am not quite as eloquent in written word as I am in spoken.

I am a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran, BTW, not that that matters that much to the discussion, but it may help you understand what I believe.

First, we are saved through Grace alone.  Christ died on the cross after living a perfect life and therefore paid for the sins of all.  I did nothing to influence that and nothing I can do can "make up for that".  The key word there is "grace".  It means that it was undeserved.  God sent his Son, who was both Man and God to earth to pay for the sins of the world.  He did so because He loves us and wants us to receive the gift of Heaven.  That is the 2-penny explaination of Justification.  We are now Justified (declared righteous) through the actions of Christ.  When we stand in front of God to be judged, Christ will stand with us and basically say "That one is mine" and God will judge us accordingly.

Because of the Justification that we receive through the gift of Christ, Christians strive to live Sanctified lives.  What that means is that we are so thankful for the gift of Salvation and Justification that we attempt to live sinless lives.  However, we are Man, and therefore sinful.  We cannot be perfect, no matter how hard we try.  However, because we are Justified, we continue to try.  When we stumble, we acknowledge our sin, ask for God's forgiveness (which is the 2-penny explanation of repentance) and continue on the journey.

As I stated before, we are saved by Grace alone.  Therefore we cannot "work" our way into Heaven.  We cannot do what is required, which is perfection.  Only Christ can (and did) that.  What we can do is strive to do what God would want us to do, which is not squander the gift that we have been given.  That is where works come in.  The are the natural response to the Justification that we have been granted.  As James said in his book, "faith without works is dead."  I like to think of works as a "force multiplier".  I know I don't need them to get into Heaven, but my faith is strengthened by doing them and other people get the benefit of my work and hopefully it strengthens their faith as well.  We then start to "feed" off of one another and if one of us stumbles (which we all do sometime), I can use that strength to keep me going.

Just something to remember.  All of this is not as simple as a "once and done" kind of thing.  While Christ paid for our sins on the cross (which was a once and done), we still have our sinful nature inside of us and we have the option of rejecting that gift.  Some people reject it outright (the unrepentant sinners), some reject it temporarily (people who "fall of the wagon" so to speak), some reject it momentarily, but eventually we all reject it because we are sinners and will always carry around that Sinful Adam in our hearts.  When that happens, we need repentance so we can continue to move forward.  In essence God "regifts" us.

The apostle Paul referred to life as "the race" on more than one occasion.  That is a great analogy.  Life is a journey.  We will not always be on the right path, but we will all finish.  The only difference is the prize that we will receive when we finish the race.  Those that work to stay on the path to Heaven will be rewarded.  Those that run away from that path will not be.

I hope that helps give you a bit of insight into my beliefs.  Again, it is hard to do when typing it out and I don't have a lot of my reference material here, so I apologize for not quoting more Scripture.  If you want, you can contact me via e-mail (link in my profile) and I can e-mail you a pretty good Bible Study on Sanctification.

Again, I am not trying to "convert" you or make you believe what I believe.  Each person's journey is their own to make and only God can judge the race and give out the prize.  My only goal is to give my take on it and hope it helps.


----------



## HandgunHTR

Artfuldodger said:


> So instead of helping me by opening my eyes, it's better to just quit trying?
> I just asked some basic questions and the answer was, the questions have no answers. I'll ask on a different thread where I will receive an answer.
> The only question I really need an answer is about the verses that say a Christian can't sin. I'll wait for RJ. He usually helps.
> My eyes have been open to the correct Biblical truth for about 10 years now. Before that they were closed. I'm always willing to see the other side of one's beliefs.
> 
> 1 John 3:6
> No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
> 
> 1 John 2:4
> Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
> 
> James 4:17
> So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
> 
> Galatians 5:19-26
> Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
> 
> Matthew 7:21-23
> “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
> 
> Matthew 5:29-30
> If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into he11. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into he11.
> 
> Matthew 5:21-22
> “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the he11 of fire.
> 
> Matthew 5:48
> You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.



You posted this while I was typing my response.

Here is my take on those verses.

There are two parts to the Bible.  Law and Gospel.  The verses that you have quoted are rooted in Law.  The purpose of the Law is that it serves as the "mirror" or sign-posts, if you will, along our journey.  As I posted above, it is impossible for us mortals to live God's law perfectly.  God's word points that out to us in multiple places.  It is there to ensure that we have a fully understanding of the Gospel.  If there was no Law, why would we need a Savior?  As is pointed out in the passages that you quoted, the only way for a mortal to get to heaven without help is to be sinless.  Therefore, a Savior is the only way we are getting in.

The Gospel is all about Christ and the fact that he did keep God's law perfectly.  When looked at in the context of the Law, it makes his sacrifice that much more awesome.  We need the Gospel because it is the message of Salvation.  

Let's look at that word "Salvation".  It implies that we need to be saved from something.  Why would we need to be saved if we were sinless?  While we make every attempt to live sinless lives, we cannot.  Therefore we need a Savior.

So, long explanation, short, the passages that you have quoted are there to _prove_ to us that we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven by our own power.  We need help.  Christ is that help.


----------



## BT Charlie

HandgunHTR said:


> Art,
> 
> I will take a stab at it, but be aware I am not quite as eloquent in written word as I am in spoken.
> 
> I am a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran, BTW, not that that matters that much to the discussion, but it may help you understand what I believe.
> 
> First, we are saved through Grace alone.  Christ died on the cross after living a perfect life and therefore paid for the sins of all.  I did nothing to influence that and nothing
> I can do can "make up for that".  The key word there is "grace".  It means that it was undeserved.  God sent his Son, who was both Man and God to earth to pay for the sins of the world.  He did so because He loves us and wants us to receive the gift of Heaven.  That is the 2-penny explaination of Justification.  We are now Justified (declared righteous) through the actions of Christ.  When we stand in front of God to be judged, Christ will stand with us and basically say "That one is mine" and God will judge us accordingly.
> 
> Because of the Justification that we receive through the gift of Christ, Christians strive to live Sanctified lives.  What that means is that we are so thankful for the gift of Salvation and Justification that we attempt to live sinless lives.  However, we are Man, and therefore sinful.  We cannot be perfect, no matter how hard we try.  However, because we are Justified, we continue to try.  When we stumble, we acknowledge our sin, ask for God's forgiveness (which is the 2-penny explanation of repentance) and continue on the journey.
> 
> As I stated before, we are saved by Grace alone.  Therefore we cannot "work" our way into Heaven.  We cannot do what is required, which is perfection.  Only Christ can (and did) that.  What we can do is strive to do what God would want us to do, which is not squander the gift that we have been given.  That is where works come in.  The are the natural response to the Justification that we have been granted.  As James said in his book, "faith without works is dead."  I like to think of works as a "force multiplier".  I know I don't need them to get into Heaven, but my faith is
> strengthened by doing them and other people get the benefit of my work and hopefully it strengthens their faith as well.  We then start to "feed" off of one another and if one of us stumbles (which we all do sometime), I can use that strength to keep me going.
> 
> Just something to remember.  All of this is not as simple as a "once and done" kind of thing.  While Christ paid for our sins on the cross (which was a once and done), we still have our sinful nature inside of us and we have the option of rejecting that gift.  Some people reject it outright (the
> unrepentant sinners), some reject it temporarily (people
> who "fall of the wagon" so to speak), some reject it momentarily, but eventually we all reject it because we are sinners and will always carry around that Sinful Adam in our hearts.  When that happens, we need repentance so we can continue to move forward.  In essence God "regifts" us.
> 
> The apostle Paul referred to life as "the race" on more than one occasion.  That is a great analogy.  Life is a
> journey.  We will not always be on the right path, but we
> will all finish.  The only difference is the prize that we will receive when we finish the race.  Those that work to stay on the path to Heaven will be rewarded.  Those that run away from that path will not be.
> 
> I hope that helps give you a bit of insight into my beliefs.  Again, it is hard to do when typing it out and I don't have a
> lot of my reference material here, so I apologize for not quoting more Scripture.  If you want, you can contact me via e-mail (link in my profile) and I can e-mail you a pretty good Bible Study on Sanctificatio
> 
> Again, I am not trying to "convert" you or make you believe what I believe.  Each person's journey is their own to make and only God can judge the race and give out the prize.  My only goal is to give my take on it and hope it
> helps.




Great post!


----------



## Ronnie T

And let me also add this Art.  

It is a peek into the greatness of God's grace, mercy, and forgiveness.  It must be greater than any other form of mercy that you've ever contemplated.

Here goes:  There's no excuse for me ever committing a single sin.  I've been saved by the blood of Jesus.  I am a child of God.  God has given me His Holy Spirit.  That Spirit can empower me to be completely and utterly flawless before God.  For real.  Through that empowerment I could live sinless for the rest of my life.
God has opened a doorway so that I can live the most perfect, peaceful life possible.

But, I have sinned!  And God has forgiven me.  If(and I will) I ever sin again, God will forgive that sin(if I'm regretful of that sin).

God deserves my complete, total obedience.
But God forgives my sins anyway.

Why? As others have said.... Because God has saved me!  I'm His.
And if I commit a million more sins God will forgive them all if I'm regretful.

Go figger.  He really loves me doesn't He?

Same for you my friend.  Same for you.


----------



## Artfuldodger

HandgunHTR said:


> Art,
> 
> Again, I am not trying to "convert" you or make you believe what I believe.  Each person's journey is their own to make and only God can judge the race and give out the prize.  My only goal is to give my take on it and hope it helps.



I'm reminded of the saying, help me choose my words carefully because one day I may have to eat them.

I welcome a new voice to the forum. I agree the journey is up to the individual. How much of the processes of Justification, Sanctification, & Repentance are gifts?
Can we surrender all to Jesus? I'm torn between what I offer and what God offers. I do believe in limited free will. Certainly I must do something even with grace. Believe? Repent? Have Faith? Get Baptized? Sanctification? 
What I don't understand is how much of these things are from me and how much are gifts from God.


----------



## M80

1st John 3v9, whosever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 

Bro. Art, Ive went over this a good while back, many here disagree with my beliefs of this verse. When we are born again(saved) it is God that quickens us and makes that inner man alive. That is our spirit that is born again and it cannot sin. Our flesh doesn't inherit heaven. That is why we cannot sin, our inner man that belongs to God. Our flesh still craves this world, it is what sins. I have a problem with it just as well as Paul did when he wrote Romans 7


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> And let me also add this Art.
> 
> It is a peek into the greatness of God's grace, mercy, and forgiveness.  It must be greater than any other form of mercy that you've ever contemplated.
> 
> Here goes:  There's no excuse for me ever committing a single sin.  I've been saved by the blood of Jesus.  I am a child of God.  God has given me His Holy Spirit.  That Spirit can empower me to be completely and utterly flawless before God.  For real.  Through that empowerment I could live sinless for the rest of my life.
> God has opened a doorway so that I can live the most perfect, peaceful life possible.
> 
> But, I have sinned!  And God has forgiven me.  If(and I will) I ever sin again, God will forgive that sin(if I'm regretful of that sin).
> 
> God deserves my complete, total obedience.
> But God forgives my sins anyway.
> 
> Why? As others have said.... Because God has saved me!  I'm His.
> And if I commit a million more sins God will forgive them all if I'm regretful.
> 
> Go figger.  He really loves me doesn't He?
> 
> Same for you my friend.  Same for you.



Thanks for responding. I can always count on you.
To start with I agree. God's grace, mercy, and forgiveness trumps all. We can't even begin to fathom what that means. I could only wish or hope to having even a sampling of his forgiveness. Jesus said if you want God to forgive you of your trespasses, you must forgive others of your trespasses against them.
I read so much about forgiveness and so much about grace and so much about Jesus dying for our sins and so much about mercy  that I get confused about living a life of not sinning. 
It's like I'm almost there. I'm almost convinced. I'm almost secure. I'm almost Free.
Then, THEN, someone comes along and say , if you continue to live a life of sin, or produce no fruit, or aren't sanctified, or  aren't _____. Then YOU will never see the kingdom of God.
It's like God will give you these gifts. Whatever you want to call them, repentance, sanctification, a measure of faith, Holy Spirit Gifts or Dwelling, and on and on. If or IF you don't show or change or somehow manifest then you never ever were saved or received these gifts and thus aren't saved and never was saved, sorry. Better luck next time.
Sorry Ronnie, not pickin on you and thanks for responding. Somehow all of this stuff just manifest itself in my head to exploding. My eyes are always responding and I'm really sincere. I'm just always on this religious roller coaster and I would really rather just get off. I don't like it. I envy people with blessed assurance. 
One day someone will give me one verse that will give me the security I'm seeking. Then I'll show them some verses that say Christians don't sin and it'll start over again. I'll be almost convinced Jesus died for my sins and the gift of grace if free but then the stipulations start trickling in and I just lose faith that I can meet those requirements.
Almost every thread is what "I" must do. Not too many threads on what Jesus did. Is there a balance? Can I compete with Jesus?
The whole concept of this thread is based on what "I" must do. Which is to be very repentive of sexual/flesh sins.
I get the feeling those will keep me from the kingdom of God but spiritual/mental sins like lust and jealousy won't.
Then the whole process of Repentance comes into play which seems to trump God's grace. But only for certain lifestyle sins, not everyday sins which afflict most Christians.
Yes I see a lot of bias in how most Christians view repentance and grace but mostly in forgiveness and love.
Perhaps this is just my problem and everyone else has seen the light. 
Again I think everyone for any and all help. My eyes are always open. I may not see correctly, but my eyes are open to seeing the correct light. 
Please show me this light,if you have any tiny little bit of insight, I'm all eyes or ears.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I work with and live with many good and great Christians. I live in extended families of great Christians. They are mostly good, repentive, and honest Christians but that will not get them into Heaven. At least by my beliefs. Some old story about Jesus keeps popping into my head.
They all believe Jesus died for their sins. They all believe in God's grace. I would say they are all sincere in believing in God and Jesus. They aren't pretending. Am I to believe their salvation is at stake because they might not follow the correct beliefs, indoctrinations, denominations, or because they might live a lifestyle of sinning every day? Is Christianity based on repentance or grace? Where does either originate? They all sin a variety of sins. None of them are homosexuals or drunkards. They do commit sins such as jealousy, slander, gossip, hate, unforgiveness, cheating,  etc.
They do repent and feel guilty, to a certain extent. They all commit sins that will keep them form seeing the Kingdom of God. Lying being one of the worst. I don't see much difference between most Christian's lifestyle and most Jews or Hindus. 
If Christians have the help of the Holy Spirit and yet still sin daily, I can't condemn my fellow Christians for their actions. I can only ask that they try to live a better life. 
I've also noticed that some of the most religious people I  know are also the most sinful. They can quote scripture and say the most beautiful prayers I've ever heard. They go to Church every Sunday and speak in tongues. They can get drunk in the Holy Spirit. Yet most of the time they fight, cheat, cuss, drink, gamble, commit adultery, etc.
I envy their commitment to the Lord yet frown upon their lifestyle. But who am I to say they aren't committed, repentive, great Christians?


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> 1st John 3v9, whosever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
> 
> Bro. Art, Ive went over this a good while back, many here disagree with my beliefs of this verse. When we are born again(saved) it is God that quickens us and makes that inner man alive. That is our spirit that is born again and it cannot sin. Our flesh doesn't inherit heaven. That is why we cannot sin, our inner man that belongs to God. Our flesh still craves this world, it is what sins. I have a problem with it just as well as Paul did when he wrote Romans 7



I've read a lot about what you have said. Many may disagree but I can at least follow the concept of our two natures. The flesh still sins but the new spirit can't.
Yet our fellow Christians somehow blame us for allowing our old fleshy selves to sin. 
I would like to know how many Christians see their fellow brothers in Christ and personal extended family members lives as pertaining to sin. 
Do they sin less than most non-believers? Less than most Hindus? Less than most Atheist? 
Do the members of your Church get divorced, commit adultery, cheat on their income tax, show hatred, aren't willing to forgive trespassers? Is Christianity based on quitting sin or forgiveness of sin? Do you see it as a little of both and if you do, why isn't that a works based salvation as opposed to a grace and mercy based salvation?
My inquiring mind wants to know.
I work and live with a diverse group of folks. Am I to be able to pick out the Christians based on how they live or act vs. Atheist or Hindus? If so then we are all in a world of hurt because I don't see it.
I would like to. I would like to know there is a difference that is visible but I can't say as I see it. Maybe it's more spiritual and thus not as visible. 
I can't walk though my workplace and say he's a Christian, she's a Christian based on their WORKS and maybe I shouldn't be able to. Works want get you into Heaven and even Hindus show good works.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Do you still go to 12 Stone?



This was mentioned a couple of times. A little bit of grief was given to panfried on his views of the Baptist Church. Are you returning the favor in reference to the Wesleyan Church's views on "sinless perfection?"


----------



## Artfuldodger

Sometimes I get the feeling that Christians aren't very tolerant of anyone. Like the old Sly & the Family Stone song;
There is a blue one who can't accept
The green one for living with
A black ones tryin' to be a skinny one

There is a long man
That doesn't like the short man
For being such a rich one
That will not help the poor one

There is a yellow one that won't
Accept the black one
That won't accept the red one
That won't accept the white one

We can't even get along with our fellow brothers let along accept them. Forget non-believers, we need to work on our own lifestyles.
We say one thing and act completely different. We snicker at another's beliefs and yet think we have seen the light.
The worse offense is when a brother ask for help in seeing the light, we just turn a deaf ear.
How can we help convert when we can't even follow our own conversions? 
Jesus said the answer is "Love." I must agree, love is the key.
Sounds kinda cheesy and not very macho doesn't it. Almost effeminate.
Almost like one of those "feel good" Churches we talk about. Way too spiritual. People like physical/fleshy stuff. We understand fleshy stuff better. We only think controlling our fleshy stuff is where it's at. Spiritual, feel good, stuff. That's for those Universal, Hippie type green people. We want fleshy stuff. We want physical results. I want to see some Works results in my fleshy self to know I'm saved. Not some wishy washy feel good spiritual stuff. That's the stuff of the free love sixties drugged induced hippies. Show me a righteous, sinning all week, Church on Sunday, physically changed, Khaki wearing dude with a flat top, and I'll show you a real Christian.


----------



## M80

I don't know about Christianity, but salvation is based on forgiveness of sins


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> I've read a lot about what you have said. Many may disagree but I can at least follow the concept of our two natures. The flesh still sins but the new spirit can't.
> Yet our fellow Christians somehow blame us for allowing our old fleshy selves to sin.
> I would like to know how many Christians see their fellow brothers in Christ and personal extended family members lives as pertaining to sin.
> Do they sin less than most non-believers? Less than most Hindus? Less than most Atheist?
> Do the members of your Church get divorced, commit adultery, cheat on their income tax, show hatred, aren't willing to forgive trespassers? Is Christianity based on quitting sin or forgiveness of sin? Do you see it as a little of both and if you do, why isn't that a works based salvation as opposed to a grace and mercy based salvation?
> My inquiring mind wants to know.
> I work and live with a diverse group of folks. Am I to be able to pick out the Christians based on how they live or act vs. Atheist or Hindus? If so then we are all in a world of hurt because I don't see it.
> I would like to. I would like to know there is a difference that is visible but I can't say as I see it. Maybe it's more spiritual and thus not as visible.
> I can't walk though my workplace and say he's a Christian, she's a Christian based on their WORKS and maybe I shouldn't be able to. Works want get you into Heaven and even Hindus show good works.



This one really has me thinking.
It's kinda like the whole of the wheat and tares conundrum (if we allow it to be one).
A brother once came to a meeting several years ago.
He was invited to speak and walked up front. He said: 
A man and a dog.
The man throws a stick, and tells the dog...fetch.
The dog runs and brings the stick back, drops it at the Master's feet, and then sits.
The Master picks up the stick, throws it and says "fetch!".
The dog runs, again, and retrieves the stick and drops it at the Master's feet, and sits.
The Master picks up the stick, throws it, and says, "stay".
The dog...stays seated.

Off course one would need "spiritual ears" to hear what the Lord speaks to each...to one I say "go" and he goes...to one I say "stay", and he remains.

"What will this man do?" appears a question never far from us.

Yet, I am convinced, the answer remains the same.
"What's that to you? YOU, follow me."

In the matter of bodily impurities it may be more than sufficient instructions to some that "if the book says it, I am going to address that situation wherever I find it"...and I am hard pressed to find any place where I have any right to question "what is that man doing?"

But, I have wrestled with my own bodily impurities, and still do...and have discovered there is no salvation in just being heterosexual. I have beheld too many "lovely" body parts, easily deceived by my own lusts, over which I may even seek comfort by saying "well, at least _those_ are not the _wrong kind_ to catch a _man's_ eye."

Am I too frank?
Forgive me, and edit or delete, as needed.

My own sins are never as grievous as others. 

Or, am I simply deceived in saying this?

"Thanks be to God my wife does not hear every thought
with which I, sometimes, don't contend as ferociously as I would like her to think?"

But, my husband, my head, hears and sees them all.

I am undone if Jesus did not pay for me.
I am without hope if he does not perfect as he has said.

How little I know of his death! 
But, I hope to know his life.

What hope is there, then, for one "like me"?

Thanks be to God! Thanks be to God!
Jesus IS Lord.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you returning the favor in reference to the Wesleyan Church's views on "sinless perfection?"



Nope.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Israel said:


> This one really has me thinking.
> It's kinda like the whole of the wheat and tares conundrum (if we allow it to be one).
> A brother once came to a meeting several years ago.
> He was invited to speak and walked up front. He said:
> A man and a dog.
> The man throws a stick, and tells the dog...fetch.
> The dog runs and brings the stick back, drops it at the Master's feet, and then sits.
> The Master picks up the stick, throws it and says "fetch!".
> The dog runs, again, and retrieves the stick and drops it at the Master's feet, and sits.
> The Master picks up the stick, throws it, and says, "stay".
> The dog...stays seated.
> 
> Off course one would need "spiritual ears" to hear what the Lord speaks to each...to one I say "go" and he goes...to one I say "stay", and he remains.
> 
> "What will this man do?" appears a question never far from us.
> 
> Yet, I am convinced, the answer remains the same.
> "What's that to you? YOU, follow me."
> 
> In the matter of bodily impurities it may be more than sufficient instructions to some that "if the book says it, I am going to address that situation wherever I find it"...and I am hard pressed to find any place where I have any right to question "what is that man doing?"
> 
> But, I have wrestled with my own bodily impurities, and still do...and have discovered there is no salvation in just being heterosexual. I have beheld too many "lovely" body parts, easily deceived by my own lusts, over which I may even seek comfort by saying "well, at least _those_ are not the _wrong kind_ to catch a _man's_ eye."
> 
> Am I too frank?
> Forgive me, and edit or delete, as needed.
> 
> My own sins are never as grievous as others.
> 
> Or, am I simply deceived in saying this?
> 
> "Thanks be to God my wife does not hear every thought
> with which I, sometimes, don't contend as ferociously as I would like her to think?"
> 
> But, my husband, my head, hears and sees them all.
> 
> I am undone if Jesus did not pay for me.
> I am without hope if he does not perfect as he has said.
> 
> How little I know of his death!
> But, I hope to know his life.
> 
> What hope is there, then, for one "like me"?
> 
> Thanks be to God! Thanks be to God!
> Jesus IS Lord.



Not too frank and very honest, thanks. That was a refreshing read compared to my early morning rantings. I dreamed of love last night and awoke feeling refreshed.
I still see "Love" as the key. I'll try to use and show it more often. Maybe even to the point of being called effeminate.


----------



## Ronnie T

Love is the key.
.


----------



## gemcgrew

Israel said:


> What hope is there, then, for one "like me"?
> 
> Thanks be to God! Thanks be to God!
> Jesus IS Lord.



2 Corinthians 5:21 comes to mind.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> 2 Corinthians 5:21 comes to mind.



Great verse yet I read verses in the Bible that say, certain sins if committed, will keep me out of the Kingdom of God.
How do we balance the verses below with 2 Corinthians 5:21 and the many others that talk of God's free gift of Grace?

1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Galatians 5:19-26
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Matthew 5:29-30
If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into he11. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into he11.

Matthew 5:21-22
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the he11 of fire.

Matthew 5:48
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Matthew 25:35-42
35For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?

40"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' 41"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;



OK guys, I'm thirsty and hungry!


----------



## Israel

gemcgrew said:


> 2 Corinthians 5:21 comes to mind.



How wonderful that comes to mind!
What an advent!
What a return!


----------



## Israel

Ronnie T said:


> Love is the key.
> .



It is, isn't it?
What if it's true?
I don't know much about love at all, but what I have seen of it makes me want more.
What if that same "stuff" that causes a man to frivolously spend thousands of dollars for a small piece of carbon to put on a girl's finger...without a thought...of cost...is really even more pure, more true, more "real" than that man can know in his deepest imaginations, and the One who IS that...has purposed that nothing BUT that be all a man knows, is moved by, and dwells in?
Can this be? Is this really how it is?


Man, am I glad Paul didn't shirk the hard questions.


Either it's all for joy...or Christ ain't risen.


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## panfried0419

centerpin fan said:


> Do you still go to 12 Stone?


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## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


>



12 Stone is a Wesleyan church.  The Wesleyan church believes homosexuality is a sin.  That apparently doesn't bother you.  It only bothers you that I think homosexuality is a sin.


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## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> 12 Stone is a Wesleyan church.  The Wesleyan church believes homosexuality is a sin.  That apparently doesn't bother you.  It only bothers you that I think homosexuality is a sin.



I could still fellowship with them. I would just assume they have a different definition of those old Greek words that we don't have English words for. They probably believe in the Trinity and have or follow Creeds both of which I don't follow the same as Wesleyans but it would not stop me from their fellowship. 
If one was to pick and choose a Church that only met all of an individuals beliefs, he would be in Church by himself. You just have to pick a Church you are comfortable with.
I occasionally go to Oneness Churches who don't believe in the Trinity either.


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## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> If one was to pick and choose a Church that only met all of an individuals beliefs, he would be in Church by himself. You just have to pick a Church you are comfortable with.



If you believe in the Gospel what you like, and reject what you don't like, it is not the Gospel you believe, but yourself. 

-- St. Augustine


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## panfried0419

centerpin fan said:


> 12 Stone is a Wesleyan church.  The Wesleyan church believes homosexuality is a sin.  That apparently doesn't bother you.  It only bothers you that I think homosexuality is a sin.



You know what's funny? I never once posted that is or ain't. It only bothers me that one would lie and and misinterpret my beliefs. Also a sin
And why do you care where I go to church. Creepy stalker


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## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> You know what's funny? I never once posted that is or ain't.



Yes, you are remarkably adept at avoiding a simple "yes/no" answer.  You did say "it doesn't condemn one to hades", which means you either think:

1)  it's not a sin or 

2)  it's the only sin that won't send you to he11.  

(I don't think I have to tell you that #2 is a pretty unique theological perspective.)




panfried0419 said:


> And why do you care where I go to church.



Because you are obviously passionate about this issue, so I don't understand why you would go to a church that you disagree with on it.


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## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> It only bothers me that one would lie and and misinterpret my beliefs. Also a sin



I haven't lied about anything.  Also, if you won't give straight answers to simple questions, you can't complain if those answers are misinterpreted.


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## panfried0419

I have a given my answer several times. You just choose not too accept them. Typical. And I don't disagree with anything from my church. By the way I don't go to 12stone. Been a member of the Methodist church forever.


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## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> By the way I don't go to 12stone. Been a member of the Methodist church forever.



This is just priceless.  First, you accuse me of lying about your beliefs.  Then, you go back and delete the thread where you talked about how you were going to 12 Stone and loving it.  (I linked to the thread back in post 290.)

Incredible.


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## Ronnie T

Israel said:


> It is, isn't it?
> What if it's true?
> I don't know much about love at all, but what I have seen of it makes me want more.
> What if that same "stuff" that causes a man to frivolously spend thousands of dollars for a small piece of carbon to put on a girl's finger...without a thought...of cost...is really even more pure, more true, more "real" than that man can know in his deepest imaginations, and the One who IS that...has purposed that nothing BUT that be all a man knows, is moved by, and dwells in?
> Can this be? Is this really how it is?
> 
> 
> Man, am I glad Paul didn't shirk the hard questions.
> 
> 
> Either it's all for joy...or Christ ain't risen.



Yes.  We could take all our doctrinal differences and put them in a bottom draw in the guest bedroom.
Loving God and loving every person will take care of the doctrinal problems.  
.


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## panfried0419

I said I visited. Not a member bud. Never lied. God bless.


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## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> This is just priceless.  First, you accuse me of lying about your beliefs.  Then, you go back and delete the thread where you talked about how you were going to 12 Stone and loving it.  (I linked to the thread back in post 290.)
> 
> Incredible.


What a tangled web we weave...


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## panfried0419

I never once denied going and I did post a thread about how nice it was. I just have different beliefs centerpin. We both can agree to disagree. But we both believe in God.


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## centerpin fan

panfried0419 said:


> I said I visited.



That's not what you said.  And if it were, there's no need to delete the thread.  You deleted the thread to cover your tracks.


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## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> What a tangled web we weave...



Amen to that.


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## Artfuldodger

Anybody want to give a shot at answering post #357?


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## panfried0419

Artfuldodger said:


> Anybody want to give a shot at answering post #357?



It's hard. I live by grace and faith. Sometimes stumble but always get back up.


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## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> If you believe in the Gospel what you like, and reject what you don't like, it is not the Gospel you believe, but yourself.
> 
> -- St. Augustine



This is my Good News:

"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
Matthew 6:14-15 

"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."
1 John 2:1 

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,"
Romans 8:1 

"Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.""
Hebrews 10:17

"For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."
Colossians 1:13-14


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## panfried0419

Artfuldodger said:


> This is my Good News:
> 
> "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
> Matthew 6:14-15
> 
> "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."
> 1 John 2:1
> 
> "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,"
> Romans 8:1
> 
> "Then he adds:
> "Their sins and lawless acts
> I will remember no more.""
> Hebrews 10:17
> 
> "For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."
> Colossians 1:13-14



Amen


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## Israel

If nothing else, this thread helps me see how my sins affect my wife's soul. 
There's a reason for God's order, and a glory in its restoration through Christ.
maybe...if, and when, I am found fulfilling something to which I am called...to love without hypocrisy, to gladly lay down my life...(not simply "at best" bite my tongue when I feel I am not appreciated), not be anything but grateful instead of just saying "thanks", thinking that "covers it"...who knows what the Lord may then show?

Other folks relationships, unless they care to tell me about them...seem pretty much off limits. 
Of course there's an order. And of course we can have our hypotheticals to deviate as far from that as we care to...but I sometimes think it's more for sorting one another (here) out...than any meaningful ministry to those we talk about.

At best...perhaps...I'd have to ask a man who said he loved and was living in a marriage relationship with another man, who also claimed to love Christ...the same thing the Lord asks me..."OK...so you're saved...let's go with that for a minute...what about the one you say you love...is there anything you are doing to them, with them, that might put their soul in a less secure place you imagine for yourself? Do you know why I call her the weaker vessel?"


Lord...am I saved?
Save me, Lord.


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## Artfuldodger

panfried0419 said:


> It's hard. I live by grace and faith. Sometimes stumble but always get back up.



I don't know why those are in the New Testament either. I know my sins are washed so I'll just pick & choose my gospel with the verses I listed as my Good News.
Jesus told me I could do that. God's grace & his son's sacrifice for my sins.


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