# Jehovah's Witnesses



## Jody Hawk

My buddy recently lost his mother to cancer. His mother, stepfather and brother were all Jehovah's Witnesses. My buddy and his wife are Baptist. They had the memorial service at the Kingdom Hall. After the service, the preacher walked to the front row to shake hands and offer condolences. My buddy said he looked at him and his wife, walked right on past them and shook hands with the rest of the family. He said he'd never forget that as long as he lives.


----------



## CAL

Huh!


----------



## StriperAddict

Religious pharisee's are the most contemptible lot on earth and in heav, umm, wait...   we're likely not gonna find them there


----------



## 1gr8bldr

This kind of thing is not confined to JW churches nor is represenative of them. I would not know this for sure, but I say this because I have seen equal things in other churches that I will not name


----------



## jigman29

I used to be a j.w. and will tell you from experience they are some of the most unusual people you will ever be around.I remember when my granny's dad died she and 2 of her sisters who were also j.w.'s would not even go into the baptist church where they had the service.They are full of themselves worse than most to me and they are brain washed like you wouldn't believe.They go door to door trying to get you to come to they're kingdom hall and try it out but if you invite them they will shut down about as quick as anything you will see.I spent about 16 years with them and have never been happier since walking into a baptist church and finding the lord.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

jigman29 said:


> I used to be a j.w. and will tell you from experience they are some of the most unusual people you will ever be around.I remember when my granny's dad died she and 2 of her sisters who were also j.w.'s would not even go into the baptist church where they had the service.They are full of themselves worse than most to me and they are brain washed like you wouldn't believe.They go door to door trying to get you to come to they're kingdom hall and try it out but if you invite them they will shut down about as quick as anything you will see.I spent about 16 years with them and have never been happier since walking into a baptist church and finding the lord.



the ones that come to my door are very nice


----------



## huntmore

When I tell them I am Catholic they leave real quick.


----------



## rjcruiser

I just tell them I believe Jesus is God and they leave as quick as they came.


----------



## Ronnie T

Jody Hawk said:


> My buddy recently lost his mother to cancer. His mother, stepfather and brother were all Jehovah's Witnesses. My buddy and his wife are Baptist. They had the memorial service at the Kingdom Hall. After the service, the preacher walked to the front row to shake hands and offer condolences. My buddy said he looked at him and his wife, walked right on past them and shook hands with the rest of the family. He said he'd never forget that as long as he lives.



Apparantly the wife allowed the rest of the family to 'talk her into' having the funeral at a place her husband wouldn't have wanted.
That preacher will pay for his attitude.


----------



## Huntinfool

...and his beliefs!


----------



## 35 Whelen

I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and have conducted two funeral services.  After the service I spoke to all the family members whether they were Jehovah's Witnesses or not.  That should not have happened.


----------



## Huntinfool

35, 

Would you be up for posting up (in a new thread) what you believe and why you believe other denominations are wrong?

I started to say "why Christians are wrong".  But, as I understand it, JW do believe themselve Christians (as do Mormons).


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

August 15, 1968 WATCHTOWER page 494

"Why are you looking forward to 1975?"  

When I show JW's this article (from their own Watchtower...from the only prophet in the world today) I tell them to substitute 2018 in to get the effect of what the Watchtower was telling people in 1968.   The article states that the 1000 year  reign of Christ would begin in the fall of 1968...."within a matter of weeks or months; not years"   Why publish an article like that, 8 years in advance, if they weren't prophesying something?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Huntinfool said:


> 35,
> 
> Would you be up for posting up (in a new thread) what you believe and why you believe other denominations are wrong?
> 
> I started to say "why Christians are wrong".  But, as I understand it, JW do believe themselve Christians (as do Mormons).


 I'm not JW, but for any belief, that would be hard to do without writing a book.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

I think a thread on JW's would be very informative. After talking to several on my front porch, I found out several ways in which they had been misrepresented by what I was told about them. They do not believe that they have to go door to door in a works salvation.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

1gr8bldr said:


> I think a thread on JW's would be very informative. After talking to several on my front porch, I found out several ways in which they had been misrepresented by what I was told about them. They do not believe that they have to go door to door in a works salvation.



I seriously doubt you'll find one that is comfortable in not going door-to-door, though.   They may say that they don't need to, and are only doing what Jehovah has asked them to do, but since they have no guarantee that Jehovah will resurrect them in the end, why chance it?  

A JW thread would have to include a promise of "no debating" before a JW would engage us....IMO.


----------



## Huntinfool

You're probably right.  I'd be curious just from the information standpoint.  It could get ugly real quick though...you're right.


----------



## rjcruiser

Huntinfool said:


> It could get ugly real quick though...you're right.



And why I've tried to stay clean in this thread.

It is a banning in waiting.


----------



## Huntinfool

I say you're not man enough to post what you want to post....



(Just kidding.  Don't do it man.  Who else will back me and my condemning ideas up if you're not here!)


----------



## rjcruiser

Huntinfool said:


> I say you're not man enough to post what you want to post....
> 
> 
> 
> (Just kidding.  Don't do it man.  Who else will back me and my condemning ideas up if you're not here!)



Who said I was backing you up?  I'm not sure I 100% agree with you on the divorce thing

I surely don't agree with you on family only worship

At least you've come around to agree with me about private Christian school education


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

someone really needs to put a 'tail kisser' emoticon in the list....


----------



## j_seph

I worked on a beer route with a JW, I was his helper. I simply asked him one day "What are y'alls beliefs, not that I want to change just curious" For sure strange, they do not celebrate birthdays, or recognize holidays yet they will take a holiday pay or bonus. Said the recognized wedding anniversaries because that was the only thing we done under God's eyes. I am sorry but the good Lord gave me my first breathe!


----------



## Ronnie T

BANDERSNATCH said:


> someone really needs to put a 'tail kisser' emoticon in the list....



That's funny right there.


----------



## 35 Whelen

Huntinfool said:


> You're probably right.  I'd be curious just from the information standpoint.  It could get ugly real quick though...you're right.



Here is a good place to start for information:

www.wathctower.org


----------



## Mako22

Some of their false doctrines:

1.Jesus Christ is not God. Rather, he is Michael the archangel.

2.The Holy Spirit is not a person, but an "active force." J.W.'s are unitarians, denying the Trinity. 

3.When you're dead, you're dead. Man has no eternal soul, any more than animals. 

4.Jesus Christ was not raised bodily from the grave, but was recreated as a new "spirit body." 

5.Jesus returned invisibly in 1914. There is no "visible coming" planned in the future.

6.There is no Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----. Just like animals, when we die, it is over.

7.Only 144,000 people achieve heaven. The rest, faithful Witnesses who have died, will be recreated on earth during the kingdom of the "New World."


Dr. Walter Martin author of The Kingdom of the Cults back in 1988.


----------



## dawg2

huntmore said:


> When I tell them I am Catholic they leave real quick.





rjcruiser said:


> I just tell them I believe Jesus is God and they leave as quick as they came.



Either works equally fast.

However, I would add I doubt that the actions at the funeral are the norm.  I know some great JW.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

They have some beliefs about blood and transfussions???


----------



## fish hawk

1gr8bldr said:


> They have some beliefs about blood and transfussions???



Yea they wont receive blood or give it no matter what.They could be laid up in the hospital about to bleed to death and still wouldn't take it.Or their youngun could be about to bleed to death and they still wouldn't give it.They also hate the government...Their also an elitist bunch as they believe they are the only ones that are saved and the rest of us are lost,therefore they think their better than everyone else....I know a heap bunch other stuff about em as my mom is one.She will not stand at the pledge of allegiance to the flag or take part in any type of public prayer and dare not step foot in our  Baptist church.....And as for as the witnessing goes ,it is a requirement they go around every Saturday morning and have a specific area they have to cover and they keep up with who and where everyone went and the hours they were out witnessing.also dont ever show up at a kingdom hall for the meeting in anything other than a suit for the men or a dress for the women or they will look down their nose at you.They also frown heavily on the men having any type facial hair....Thank God I didnt get caught up in her works based religion and have been set free by the free gift from God.Oh and dont ever call God God they call him Jehovah or call the Bible the Bible that just aint right in their eyes.....


----------



## Jody Hawk

They won't pray with folks of any other religion unless they are the ones saying the prayer.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

John 20:28    

The greek interlinear reads...

The Lord of me and the god (ho theos) of me.


----------



## gacowboy

Jody Hawk said:


> They won't pray with folks of any other religion unless they are the ones saying the prayer.



That is the best thing to do, tell them that you will pray for them in Jesus name.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Kingdom Greek Interlinear 

Jesus speaking here...

John 14:13 - And whatsoever ye shall ask me in the name of me, ....

This shows that Jesus expected to be prayed to.


----------



## Randy

I used to work wiht a JW on the sort line at UPS during college.  We talked all night every night.  He told me all about their beliefs.  He brought me lotsof books including the watch tower to read.  While I did not agree with most of it he was a nice enough guy and we agreed to disagree.  And while he did not celebrate Christmas or Birthdays he was quick to accept (but not give) any presents saying these were gifts from people for being friends?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

The time to 'reach' a JW is BEFORE they are baptised as Witnesses.    Once they become a witness, they are no longer allowed to view 'negative' articles or the plethora of ex-Witness sites on the web.

When they begin studying with the JW's, they will be told that Satan will use others (friends, family, websites, etc) to degrade the Watchtower organization and JW's as a whole.   DUH!!!   Ya think???   lol   When people start bad-mouthing the Watchtower is just makes it look like the 'prophesy' was right.   They no longer can behave as the Berean church did...

Acts 17:11 - These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.  

I'm curious....can the former JW's who are watching this thread tell us what led them to 'apostatize' and leave the organization?


----------



## JB0704

I am wondering if all the folks criticizing JW's see the irony in the situation.  Non-believers use similar arguments against Christians.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

We (normal non-cult christians) can defend ourselves.   they cannot.

Tolerance.


----------



## JB0704

BANDERSNATCH said:


> We (normal non-cult christians) can defend ourselves.   they cannot.



Only a Christian would agree....think about it.  They can defend themselves too, just not according to you. There are "bad Christians" just like there are "bad JW's."


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

JB0704 said:


> There are "bad Christians" just like there are "bad JW's."



No doubt there, JB       I've never met a JW that I thought was a bad person....they just do what they are told, and refuse to weigh out the evidence.


----------



## JB0704

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I've never met a JW that I thought was a bad person.....



...I had one really get upset at me one day for saying "merry Christmas."  I didn't know he was JW, and I was just going with the season. But, I don't hold it against them all.  I'm sure some Christian out there gets upset about similar things.


----------



## Huntinfool

Live and let live, right?  Our way is no better than theirs....or at least it's not for us to judge.


----------



## grouper throat

Huntinfool said:


> Live and let live, right?  Our way is no better than theirs....or at least it's not for us to judge.



Yes and I agree. I know a younger guy who works for my family's business and he's a JW and seems like a really good person.


----------



## Huntinfool

Perhaps my post was not as dripping with sarcasm as I intended...


----------



## rjcruiser

Huntinfool said:


> Perhaps my post was not as dripping with sarcasm as I intended...



epic fail


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Live and let live, right?  Our way is no better than theirs....or at least it's not for us to judge.



I was pointing out the irony of men blasting another person's faith in the same manner their own is blasted.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Myth --  another man's religion


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> I was pointing out the irony of men blasting another person's faith in the same manner their own is blasted.



No...the difference is that we both "believe" in the same religious book.  Just like the Mormons.

How you can get some of their beliefs out of the Bible is beyond me.

I usually point to John 1...


----------



## JB0704

RJ, I have talked and talked with those folks.  What they see is just as rock-solid to them as what you see is to you.  I don't agree with how they see it, I just have a tough time mocking another man's beliefs.


----------



## Michael F. Gray

I choose not to participate in most of this discusion. Admitedly I am a fundamental, conservative, Free Will Baptist. I'll confine my comments to the conduct at the funeral slighting some present. There is no excuse for poor manors. The quickest method to quinch the Spirit, and ruin all chances of wittnessing to the unsaved would be such a demonstration of poor conduct. Those servants who know the Lord, should be more mature. God help us to have a testimony before the Lord's people, and before a lost and dying world.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

rjcruiser said:


> I usually point to John 1...



John 1:1 wont do you any good with a JW.   They have their own bible, and it doesn't say "and the Word was God".   It says "the Word was A god".     

The Watchtower organization hides the names of those responsible for translating their New World Translation.   I can understand not wanting to brag on these guys, but TO HIDE IT FROM RESEARCHING THEIR CREDENTIALS AS QUALIFIED LEGITIMATE TRANSLATORS?   I can tell you why.....because they weren't qualified.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> I just have a tough time mocking another man's beliefs.



As do I.  I don't think you'll find me or most others mocking their religion....just showing them where they've been deceived with a Holy Book that they "believe" in.


----------



## Ronnie T

BANDERSNATCH said:


> No doubt there, JB       I've never met a JW that I thought was a bad person....they just do what they are told, and refuse to weigh out the evidence.



Sounds like a lot of other Christians I know and know of.


----------



## Ronnie T

Nope, the GON forum isn't the place to mock anothers beliefs.
Discuss, but not mock.


----------



## VenisonMan

Trinity is not in the bible. Of course, neither is "Jehovah".


----------



## centerpin fan

VenisonMan said:


> Trinity is not in the bible.



The word is not.  The concept is.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Most religions get misrepresented. So much of what you hear is contrived. But I would like to know about something that seems to be a JW belief. No blood transfusions. Can someone verify if this is for all JW's and on what they base this on.


----------



## jigman29

I was one for about 16 years and I personally saw a man who was going to let his daughter die rather than give a blood transfusion.Thankfully his wife stepped in and signed the consent saving her life.I remember when my great grandpa died his funeral service was held in a church so we were not allowed by the religion to go inside so we had to wait outside until it was over.I was also not allowed to participate in classroom parties for the holidays,if we had a christmas party I would have to wait out in the hall until it was over.Also we had to stand during the pledge of allegiance without participating.As far as marriages we had to be chapperoned on dates by one of our parents even if we were on up in our 20's.They also couldn't just go to a lawyer and get a divorce they had to go to the elders and have proof of the spouse  cheating before they could be "spiritually" divorced.A lot of the religion is geared toward adults,they celebrate no birthdays or other holidays but they can do wedding aniversaries and some even participated in mother and fathers day.Funniest thing to me was when you see bible stories where they have drawing of jesus and the deciples they all have long hair and beards but we could have no facial hair other than mustaches and our hair had to be kept cut.We couldn't smoke or chew because it was damaging to our bodies but you could set around and drink a beer lol.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

jigman29 said:


> I was one for about 16 years and I personally saw a man who was going to let his daughter die rather than give a blood transfusion.Thankfully his wife stepped in and signed the consent saving her life.I remember when my great grandpa died his funeral service was held in a church so we were not allowed by the religion to go inside so we had to wait outside until it was over.I was also not allowed to participate in classroom parties for the holidays,if we had a christmas party I would have to wait out in the hall until it was over.Also we had to stand during the pledge of allegiance without participating.As far as marriages we had to be chapperoned on dates by one of our parents even if we were on up in our 20's.They also couldn't just go to a lawyer and get a divorce they had to go to the elders and have proof of the spouse  cheating before they could be "spiritually" divorced.A lot of the religion is geared toward adults,they celebrate no birthdays or other holidays but they can do wedding aniversaries and some even participated in mother and fathers day.Funniest thing to me was when you see bible stories where they have drawing of jesus and the deciples they all have long hair and beards but we could have no facial hair other than mustaches and our hair had to be kept cut.We couldn't smoke or chew because it was damaging to our bodies but you could set around and drink a beer lol.


Interesting, wonder if this is the case for the majority or just a sect that you were involved in?


----------



## jigman29

Pretty much standard but I am sure the ones in the mountains like we were were probably a little more strict than the ones in the city.


----------



## DartonHunter101

I am a JW, and if it happened like told there would be no excuse for that conduct. Christians reach out to everyone and try to encourage them just as Jesus did.
 Most Jehovah's Witness are really friendly and kind people, but like all religions some have a few screws loose. Look a Judas, he was chosen by Jesus and was a terrible example of a Christian, BUT it did not make Jesus teachings wrong.


----------



## Hooked On Quack

I just wished they'd QUIT beating on my door when I've just gotten off the midnight shift....



Haven't seen any in a couple of years when I went to the door nekkid.


----------



## Artfuldodger

They appear to be better at race relations in that blacks & whites go to church together. I know that is changing now in all churches which is a good thing.


----------



## DartonHunter101

Hooked On Quack said:


> I just wished they'd QUIT beating on my door when I've just gotten off the midnight shift....
> 
> 
> 
> Haven't seen any in a couple of years when I went to the door nekkid.



just put up a sign "Night Sleeper" They will respect it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe in 1)DBR of Christ? Do they believe Jesus died on the cross for their sins , if so that is all that matters.


----------



## DartonHunter101

Artfuldodger said:


> Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe in 1)DBR of Christ? Do they believe Jesus died on the cross for their sins , if so that is all that matters.


I believe Jesus is our savior and through his blood we have hope for salvation. Without Jesus there would be no hope.


----------



## BrowningFan

What is wrong with JW's they are no different than 95% of Evagelical  Christians

1. The Bible is not their Final Authority

2. Their bible is translated from Westcott and Hort Greek Text which both these guys denied the Virgin Birth , DBR of Jesus Christ , Deity of Christ , H E L L and in Mark 1:2 makes God a liar. 

3. They believe in the lose of Salvation

4. They believe in faith plus WORKS


5.They believe water baptism saves you

6.They believe the bible is a dead book so they are not premillenial and believe Premillennial Dispensation is a JOKE 

7. Any verse they don't like they don't take literal 

I could go on all day .... this is they same stuff I debate on the other 
post with people on this Forum ..... Give the JW's a break they have more in common with the vast majority of the people here.


----------



## centerpin fan

BrowningFan said:


> 4. They believe in faith plus WORKS ...
> 
> 7. Any verse they don't like they don't take literal



What does James 2:24 literally say?


----------



## centerpin fan

I gotta ask.



BrowningFan said:


> 1. The Bible is not their Final Authority



What is the final authority for JW's and 95% of evangelicals?




BrowningFan said:


> 2. Their bible is translated from Westcott and Hort Greek Text which both these guys denied the Virgin Birth , DBR of Jesus Christ , Deity of Christ , H E L L and in Mark 1:2 makes God a liar.



For most of my Christian life, I read from a W&H-based NT, but I affirm everything you listed.  If W&H's goal was to make me doubt the Virgin Birth, etc., they failed miserably.


----------



## BrowningFan

centerpin fan said:


> What does James 2:24 literally say?



To whom is James talking to ? James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. Are you are Jew and part of the 12 tribes LITERALLY?

Centerpin I'm still waiting for your answer.


----------



## centerpin fan

BrowningFan said:


> 5.They believe water baptism saves you ...
> 
> 7. Any verse they don't like they don't take literal



What does 1 Peter 3:21 literally say?


----------



## centerpin fan

BrowningFan said:


> To whom is James talking to ? James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. Are you are Jew and part of the 12 tribes LITERALLY?



You're backtracking already.


----------



## BrowningFan

centerpin fan said:


> I gotta ask.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the final authority for JW's and 95% of evangelicals?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For most of my Christian life, I read from a W&H-based NT, but I affirm everything you listed.  If W&H's goal was to make me doubt the Virgin Birth, etc., they failed miserably.



#1 They don't know or they say Jehovah .... like some one on another post said Jesus , which everyone could say that, 


# 2 Only because of what they have been taught not by what their bibles say ... If you trust in the Westcott and Hort Text then I agree with the JW's but I take My Bible literal until it's not possible : LUKE 2:33: The TR reads, "And JOSEPH and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him." The Westcott and Hort  reads, "The CHILD'S FATHER and mother marveled at what was said about him." The "CHILD'S FATHER"? Was Joseph Jesus's father? Not if you believe the virgin birth! Not if you believe John 3:16, that Jesus Christ was the Son of God! A subtil, "perversion" of the virgin birth. See also Luke 2:43


----------



## BrowningFan

centerpin fan said:


> You're backtracking already.



No centerpin your STUCK .... I ask you a direct question are you literally  a Jew that is a part of the 12 tribes scattered abroad? Yes or No ? 


Don't deflect!


----------



## DartonHunter101

BrowningFan said:


> What is wrong with JW's they are no different than 95% of Evagelical  Christians
> 
> 1. The Bible is not their Final Authority
> This out right NOT true. I believe the bible alone is the final authority
> 
> 2. Their bible is translated from Westcott and Hort Greek Text which both these guys denied the Virgin Birth , DBR of Jesus Christ , Deity of Christ , H E L L and in Mark 1:2 makes God a liar. The only you got right here somewhat is - Yell. I do not believe it is a fiery place of everlasting torment.
> 3. They believe in the lose of Salvation
> This is true look at Satan. He was once a chief angel, and now he will be destoryed. many examples of this in the bible.
> 4. They believe in faith plus WORKS
> I believe if you have faith you will have christian works also
> 
> 5.They believe water baptism saves you
> This is wrong. Water baptism is a symbol of your dedication
> 
> 6.They believe the bible is a dead book so they are not premillenial and believe Premillennial Dispensation is a JOKE
> 
> 7. Any verse they don't like they don't take literal
> Absolutely wrong
> 
> I could go on all day .... this is they same stuff I debate on the other
> post with people on this Forum ..... Give the JW's a break they have more in common with the vast majority of the people here.



I answer the questions the best possible.I know by your comments your feelings, but I ask that you try to be acurate with the statements.  Exodus 20:16 
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. making staements about what others believes is pot luck at best. I have found it always best to ask the source what they believe. If i want to know what a Baptist believes I would ask a Baptist.


----------



## centerpin fan

BrowningFan said:


> # 2 Only because of what they have been taught not by what their bibles say ... If you trust in the Westcott and Hort Text then I agree with the JW's but I take My Bible literal until it's not possible : LUKE 2:33: The TR reads, "And JOSEPH and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him." The Westcott and Hort  reads, "The CHILD'S FATHER and mother marveled at what was said about him." The "CHILD'S FATHER"? Was Joseph Jesus's father? Not if you believe the virgin birth! Not if you believe John 3:16, that Jesus Christ was the Son of God! A subtil, "perversion" of the virgin birth. See also Luke 2:43




Keep reading.  Here's Luke 2:48 from the King James:


_And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. _


"THY FATHER"? Was Joseph Jesus's father? Not if you believe the virgin birth! Not if you believe John 3:16, that Jesus Christ was the Son of God! A subtle, "perversion" of the virgin birth.  How dare the King James do that?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Joseph was called his father because he functioned as Jesus' earthly father. Perhaps they should have said stepfather.


----------



## centerpin fan

BrowningFan said:


> I ask you a direct question ...



As I did you.  

Here they are again:

What does James 2:24 literally say? 

What does 1 Peter 3:21 literally say?


----------



## Ronnie T

BrowningFan said:


> No centerpin your STUCK .... I ask you a direct question are you literally  a Jew that is a part of the 12 tribes scattered abroad? Yes or No ?
> 
> 
> Don't deflect!




James  wrote his letter to 1st century Jewish Christians who had been forced away from their homes, probably by Rome.
They were Christians.  Believers in Jesus Christ.  Saved by the blood of Jesus.  Released from the bonds of the Old Law.

And his words apply equally as well to all Christians.

*On a side note Bro Brown.  You have this arrogant attitude about you that seems to cause you to react incorrectly when someone has a belief that doesn't agree with your beliefs.   You exaggerate their belief so that it appears to be rediculously unbelievable.
You aren't the first to have that attitude!
And you won't be the last!


----------



## BrowningFan

DartonHunter101 said:


> I answer the questions the best possible.I know by your comments your feelings, but I ask that you try to be acurate with the statements.  Exodus 20:16
> 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. making staements about what others believes is pot luck at best. I have found it always best to ask the source what they believe. If i want to know what a Baptist believes I would ask a Baptist.



Are you a Male Virgin ? Can a Women not be one of the 144000 because she is not a MALE ?

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

 3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


----------



## BrowningFan

centerpin fan said:


> Keep reading.  Here's Luke 2:48 from the King James:
> 
> 
> _And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. _
> 
> 
> "THY FATHER"? Was Joseph Jesus's father? Not if you believe the virgin birth! Not if you believe John 3:16, that Jesus Christ was the Son of God! A subtle, "perversion" of the virgin birth.  How dare the King James do that?



No capital F ...sorry try again !


----------



## centerpin fan

BrowningFan said:


> No capital F ...sorry try again !



Oh,_ come on_!  

There's no capital "F" in verse 33, either!


----------



## BrowningFan

I'm sorry if I don't answer every question tonight .... looks like the Word of God has STRUCK a NERVE tonight because I showed ya'll how you don't differ from your hated JW's , I look at you no different because as you can see you have more in common than YOU THOUGHT. I will answer all post maybe not tonight I have 3 kids so they need some family time.


----------



## DartonHunter101

BrowningFan said:


> Are you a Male Virgin ? Can a Women not be one of the 144000 because she is not a MALE ?
> 
> 1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
> 
> 2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
> 
> 3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
> 
> 4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.



I am not one of the 144 000. My hope is to live on the earth like stated in Psalms 37 10, 11, 29. Mathew 5:5. Take Care


----------



## jigman29

Not changing the subject but another reason I left the congregation is that I personally saw them turn their back to people in the congregation that needed help and the other church groups have stepped in a helped knowing they were witnesses.This was not a huge amount of help but it was for a family that needed a wheelchair ramp built for an 8 year old handicapped child.Then a couple of weeks later theyhelped one of the elders finish his house he was building to save him money.I saw this in all 3 congregations I was in and it was all the same,they helped the ones with money and let the others deal with it on their own.I am not downing you as a person if you are a witness as some of them are as good of people as you can find but I will admit that a good deal of brainwashing goes on that I never realized was happening until I started asking questions and looking for answers they refused to answer.


----------



## Ronnie T

behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 


Come on folks, Mary is obviously NOT saying that she and God have sought thee sorrowing!  Right??  Make sense??


----------



## DartonHunter101

jigman29 said:


> Not changing the subject but another reason I left the congregation is that I personally saw them turn their back to people in the congregation that needed help and the other church groups have stepped in a helped knowing they were witnesses.This was not a huge amount of help but it was for a family that needed a wheelchair ramp built for an 8 year old handicapped child.Then a couple of weeks later theyhelped one of the elders finish his house he was building to save him money.I saw this in all 3 congregations I was in and it was all the same,they helped the ones with money and let the others deal with it on their own.I am not downing you as a person if you are a witness as some of them are as good of people as you can find but I will admit that a good deal of brainwashing goes on that I never realized was happening until I started asking questions and looking for answers they refused to answer.



One thing I know for sure is that all Religons have good and bad people. The jails are not full of Jehovah's Witnesses. I do nopt excuse bad conduct, but I do realize that I too have not handled all situations the right way, probably the same as you also have not handled every situation good.. If you want to find fault you can find it in the place you left and the place you have ended up. People are people.


----------



## BrowningFan

Ronnie T said:


> James  wrote his letter to 1st century Jewish Christians who had been forced away from their homes, probably by Rome.
> They were Christians.  Believers in Jesus Christ.  Saved by the blood of Jesus.  Released from the bonds of the Old Law.
> 
> And his words apply equally as well to all Christians.
> 
> *On a side note Bro Brown.  You have this arrogant attitude about you that seems to cause you to react incorrectly when someone has a belief that doesn't agree with your beliefs.   You exaggerate their belief so that it appears to be rediculously unbelievable.
> You aren't the first to have that attitude!
> And you won't be the last!



All the Bible is written for you but all the Bible is not written to YOU. I ask you are you a Jew and are you part of the 12 tribes scattered abroad. Yes or No ?

As far as what I have posted that exaggerated their BELIEFS please give me one thing that I have posted that has not been debated on this FORUM. I don't have an attitude , I just deal all 52 cards Face Up . Tell me to never post again and it will be done. I just pointed out all the same things that JW's believe that are in common with most on this FORUM and it strikes a NERVE.


----------



## BrowningFan

DartonHunter101 said:


> I am not one of the 144 000. My hope is to live on the earth like stated in Psalms 37 10, 11, 29. Mathew 5:5. Take Care



Is it possible for a women to be one of the 144000 ? If so how if they are Male Virgins ?


----------



## Ronnie T

BrowningFan said:


> All the Bible is written for you but all the Bible is not written to YOU. I ask you are you a Jew and are you part of the 12 tribes scattered abroad. Yes or No ?
> 
> As far as what I have posted that exaggerated their BELIEFS please give me one thing that I have posted that has not been debated on this FORUM. I don't have an attitude , I just deal all 52 cards Face Up . Tell me to never post again and it will be done. I just pointed out all the same things that JW's believe that are in common with most on this FORUM and it strikes a NERVE.



I seriously doubt it "strikes a NERVE" with anyone on this forum.

And YES, I am a Jew and I am a part of the twelve tribes spread abroad??Just kidding.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I have a few beliefs that are common to Jehovah's Witnesses. One is that Jesus is the Son of God that died for our sins. I don't believe he is God. This is similar to there belief but I don't believe he is Micheal the Archangel. It's funny when you realize how much you have in common with a religious or cultural group when you sit down and think about it. Christians and Muslims for instance have as many likenesses as differences.


----------



## Ronnie T

In real life (life outside the mystical internet world), I don't think to much about how my beliefs differ from other Christian's beliefs.  I'm always glad to met a Christian.  And there's no need for us to compare creeds in order to be brothers.


----------



## BrowningFan

I have gone and sat in Kingdom Halls for hours. I will go tomorrow just PM me and see how they react to TRUTH even Westcott and Hort couldn't do enough damage to the New World Translation for one to deal with anything  they have to dish out , I will only use their bible Iv'e read it from cover to cover twice so I will be ok. JW's know about 20 verses real well after that the say it's not literal or they divert . 

One thing they struggle with is they believe H E L L is the Grave , so an easy question is to ask where is Judge Rutherford? They have to say the grave and if H E L L is the grave then that means the founder of their church is in H E L L . Then explain the founder of your Church is seated at the Right Hand of the Father in Heaven. At that point it's their choice.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BrowningFan said:


> I have gone and sat in Kingdom Halls for hours. I will go tomorrow just PM me and see how they react to TRUTH even Westcott and Hort couldn't do enough damage to the New World Translation for one to deal with anything  they have to dish out , I will only use their bible Iv'e read it from cover to cover twice so I will be ok. JW's know about 20 verses real well after that the say it's not literal or they divert .
> 
> One thing they struggle with is they believe H E L L is the Grave , so an easy question is to ask where is Judge Rutherford? They have to say the grave and if H E L L is the grave then that means the founder of their church is in H E L L . Then explain the founder of your Church is seated at the Right Hand of the Father in Heaven. At that point it's their choice.


That's another belief I have with JW's. I too believe in soul sleep, I just don't call it he11. I believe in the eternal lake of fire. You just gotta wait till Jesus returns before you make the plunge.
To sum up how I feel about there beliefs is: If you are good, you live forever. If you are bad, you die when you die. If I had  to go shopping for a religion tomorrow, I would probably choose theirs. I like that concept, I just don't believe it. Sounds almost as good as "once saved, always saved." Wish I believed that one too.


----------



## DartonHunter101

Artfuldodger said:


> That's another belief I have with JW's. I too believe in soul sleep, I just don't call it he11. I believe in the eternal lake of fire. You just gotta wait till Jesus returns before you make the plunge.
> To sum up how I feel about there beliefs is: If you are good, you live forever. If you are bad, you die when you die. If I had  to go shopping for a religion tomorrow, I would probably choose theirs. I like that concept, I just don't believe it. Sounds almost as good as "once saved, always saved." Wish I believed that one too.



It is amazing what everyone has in common if we have a open mind to listen. The Hindus have have a flood story similar to our Noah's


----------



## JB0704

DartonHunter101 said:


> If you want to find fault you can find it in the place you left and the place you have ended up. People are people.



Well said.


----------



## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> You have this arrogant attitude about you that seems to cause you to react incorrectly when someone has a belief that doesn't agree with your beliefs.   You exaggerate their belief so that it appears to be rediculously unbelievable.
> You aren't the first to have that attitude!
> And you won't be the last!



I am not saying I agree or disagree with above assessment, but at least he doesn't throw out demeaning videos and use emoticons and to mock other folks (as far as I have seen, and I am not saying you do that either).  That is the stuff that bothers me.


----------



## WELLS8230

Love thy neighbor!


----------



## thedeacon

When a JW comes to my door, most of the time I invite them and ask if they will submit to listening to me with equal time. Very few have refused.

I have never had one of them to be disrespectful at all. I have never had a time that I thought my time or their time was productive. We both stood by our belief's. Thats what the bible ask us to do, go out and spread the word and God will produce the harvest.

It never does anyone any good by such a condemnation of a person or a group of people, although I do find my self doing it in a moment of weakness. 

We can spend the rest of our lives putting the JW down for their belief's and we will not change one single mind. However if you will pray for someone you think is on the wrong tract you and they will be much better of for the act.

There is an old saying that I love to quote; "There is not much nurishment in knawing a clean bone" I believe that to be the case in this instance. No need in saying the same thing over and over.

Pick your fights and everyone will come out less bruised.

God bless


----------



## DartonHunter101

thedeacon said:


> When a JW comes to my door, most of the time I invite them and ask if they will submit to listening to me with equal time. Very few have refused.
> 
> I have never had one of them to be disrespectful at all. I have never had a time that I thought my time or their time was productive. We both stood by our belief's. Thats what the bible ask us to do, go out and spread the word and God will produce the harvest.
> 
> It never does anyone any good by such a condemnation of a person or a group of people, although I do find my self doing it in a moment of weakness.
> 
> We can spend the rest of our lives putting the JW down for their belief's and we will not change one single mind. However if you will pray for someone you think is on the wrong tract you and they will be much better of for the act.
> 
> There is an old saying that I love to quote; "There is not much nurishment in knawing a clean bone" I believe that to be the case in this instance. No need in saying the same thing over and over.
> 
> Pick your fights and everyone will come out less bruised.
> 
> God bless



When I go to someones door I realize I am an uninvited guess and always try to be repectful, and when I find someone who acts respectful and kind it makes me listen to what they have to say,  Because it is a reflection of who they whorship. 
I see indivduals everywhere, including some JW's, that put down anothers belief and that makes me sick. I have meet people in every religon who are sincere and great people, and bad people in all. There is no room to be looking down on anyone.


----------



## huntfourfun

Perhaps he didn't not know who they were?


----------



## Ronnie T

DartonHunter101 said:


> When I go to someones door I realize I am an uninvited guess and always try to be repectful, and when I find someone who acts respectful and kind it makes me listen to what they have to say,  Because it is a reflection of who they whorship.
> I see indivduals everywhere, including some JW's, that put down anothers belief and that makes me sick. I have meet people in every religon who are sincere and great people, and bad people in all. There is no room to be looking down on anyone.



I'm afraid that Christians are often like the Pharisees that stood in the center of the court praying.  He thought he could pray and talk himself into heaven by believing he was better than all the others.  And it didn't work.
......... Compare him to the one who prayed so humbly that it appeared he was talking himself out of heaven, but he couldn't.

It's seems the more we put-down other's beliefs, the more important our belief will become.  The worse you are, the better I will appear.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Tell me to never post again and it will be done.




Ok....Never post again.





Did it work????  Hello?  Anyone?  Is this thing on?


----------



## mtnwoman

Huntinfool said:


> Ok....Never post again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did it work????  Hello?  Anyone?  Is this thing on?



It didn't work for me.....


----------



## DartonHunter101

Ronnie T said:


> I'm afraid that Christians are often like the Pharisees that stood in the center of the court praying.  He thought he could pray and talk himself into heaven by believing he was better than all the others.  And it didn't work.
> ......... Compare him to the one who prayed so humbly that it appeared he was talking himself out of heaven, but he couldn't.
> 
> It's seems the more we put-down other's beliefs, the more important our belief will become.  The worse you are, the better I will appear.



 that is the part that makes a lot of good people stay away from any religon. For some reason religon makes some people haughty instead of humble. Paul said knowledge puffs up people (1cor 8:1) sothat haughty spirit in all religons today including mine sadly.


----------



## Ronnie T

DartonHunter101 said:


> that is the part that makes a lot of good people stay away from any religon. For some reason religon makes some people haughty instead of humble. Paul said knowledge puffs up people (1cor 8:1) sothat haughty spirit in all religons today including mine sadly.



You're right, we're all guilty of it at one time or another, to some extent.  But it isn't pretty.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Hopefully this religious tolerance way of thinking will carry over to include all religions, people from other countries,etc...


----------



## kmckinnie

JW, Idon't hear about  crime committed by them. There is abad apple everywhere. just saying. All that I have met are good people'
Hey we could google it I  bet! No I am not One.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Huntinfool said:


> Ok....Never post again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did it work????  Hello?  Anyone?  Is this thing on?



I think BrowningFan was talking to Ronnie.


----------



## BrowningFan

Huntinfool said:


> Ok....Never post again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did it work????  Hello?  Anyone?  Is this thing on?



That was meant for Ronnie .... I have read all you have to offer this forum other than agreeing with the norm , you have never made any post that has made anyone open their Bible and study ... I will extend the offer to YOU. All you have to say is never post in this FORUM again and it will be done.


----------



## mtnwoman

DartonHunter101 said:


> that is the part that makes a lot of good people stay away from any religon. For some reason religon makes some people haughty instead of humble. Paul said knowledge puffs up people (1cor 8:1) sothat haughty spirit in all religons today including mine sadly.


I've had a few come around, and I go out on the porch with them and say, well if I can tell you what I believe, I'll let you tell me what you believe. Then they just ask me if we can pray together right there on the porch and it was very nice, they were happy that I was saved, and I'm happy they came around so that I could tell them I was saved, too, right along with them.


----------



## Huntinfool

> That was meant for Ronnie .... I have read all you have to offer this forum other than agreeing with the norm , you have never made any post that has made anyone open their Bible and study ... I will extend the offer to YOU. All you have to say is never post in this FORUM again and it will be done.



I was kidding....and clearly...you have not read everything I've posted in these forums.  



> I have read all you have to offer this forum other than agreeing with the norm





I'd be willing to bet you're just about the only person here who would accuse me of "agreeing with the norm" my friend.  You need to read a little longer if you believe that.

But since I have that offer in my pocket, I'll keep it handy should I ever need it.  Thanks.

I admire your commitment to your convictions.  I don't admire the manner in which you communicate them.



> you have never made any post that has made anyone open their Bible and study



I realize that, in your mind, this is the worst insult you could throw at a Christian.  So I'll take it for what it is.  Knowing the truth before speaking recklessly is important.  That's what you keep preaching to us.  You might do well to follow your own requirement.


----------



## JB0704

mtnwoman said:


> I've had a few come around, and I go out on the porch with them and say, well if I can tell you what I believe, I'll let you tell me what you believe. Then they just ask me if we can pray together right there on the porch and it was very nice, they were happy that I was saved, and I'm happy they came around so that I could tell them I was saved, too, right along with them.



Good post.  I enjoy talking to folks about faith, be it JW's or other denoms, religions, etc.  It is enlightening to know what others believe even when I do not agree with anything they are saying.

The best religious conversation I ever had was with a Budhist.  We discussed our position for hours, and neither changed, but walked away full of additional information.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Hopefully this religious tolerance way of thinking will carry over to include all religions, people from other countries,etc...



In what way?  Tolerance of their existence or tolerance of their beliefs as equally truthful and valid?


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Do they believe Jesus died on the cross for their sins , if so that is all that matters.



Is it? What if they also believe Jesus was nothing more than an immigrant farm worker?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Huntinfool said:


> In what way?  Tolerance of their existence or tolerance of their beliefs as equally truthful and valid?


Tolerance that they believe their beliefs are just a real as yours or mine. You don't have to agree or subject yourself to there worshipping, just let them worship how they need to. It would be no different than an atheist standing by while someone says grace at a meal. He would be tolerant of our beliefs without actively participating.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Is it? What if they also believe Jesus was nothing more than an immigrant farm worker?


It would be ok with me if that is what they believe because i'm not a J.W.
They believe Jesus is the son of God, not that he is God. They don't believe in the Trinity. I happen to have this in common with Jehovah's Witnesses. I have a few things in common with Mormans and Jesus only Pentecostals too.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Huntinfool said:


> I was kidding....and clearly...you have not read everything I've posted in these forums.
> 
> I admire your commitment to your convictions.  I don't admire the manner in which you communicate them.


 
Huntinfool, you have a lot in common with Browningfan in your ways and reactions of posting. I admire both of ya'lls convictions and input and would hate to see either one of you leave.


----------



## BrowningFan

Artfuldodger said:


> It would be ok with me if that is what they believe because i'm not a J.W.
> They believe Jesus is the son of God, not that he is God. They don't believe in the Trinity. I happen to have this in common with Jehovah's Witnesses. I have a few things in common with Mormans and Jesus only Pentecostals too.



Neither did Westcott and Hort. Their influence will be everlasting.


----------



## centerpin fan

BrowningFan said:


> Neither did Westcott and Hort. Their influence will be everlasting.



I'll say it again:



centerpin fan said:


> If W&H's goal was to make me doubt the Virgin Birth, etc., they failed miserably.



I'll add that they also failed to make me disbelieve in the Trinity, the DBR of Christ, or any other core doctrine.

BTW, I'm not trying to pick on you, BF.  I just need a distraction.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BrowningFan said:


> Neither did Westcott and Hort. Their influence will be everlasting.


I've been reading about those two interpreters of the KJV of the Bible. It's kinda ironic that their interpretations are accepted as mainstream with their views.
A number of Christian beliefs were declared heresy in the early centuries of the church. Now they are accepted an the norm. Examples would be: Jesus is God, The diety of other humans, Jesus having only one nature, Jesus a human who became a God, Jesus was a God with human attributes but not really human, Mary was mother only of the human Jesus, not the divine Logos, and rejection of the Old Testament and differentiation between a superior God of goodness and a God of justice, the Creator God of the Jews. Okay, not all of these became the norm.
Just examples of how peoples views can change over time.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> I've been reading about those two interpreters of the KJV of the Bible.



I wouldn't exactly call 'em that.  They compiled a Greek text different than the one used by the KJV translators.  Their text is the basis for almost all of the modern translations.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Is it? What if they also believe Jesus was nothing more than an immigrant farm worker?



Tell us. What if they do believe that? Does it really matter what they believe, if they aren't preselected? If not why bother with or care what they believe...no one even needs  to hear the good news or the correct news, if they aren't gonna be saved anyway. But since we don't know whether they are predestined to be saved, what difference does it still make? we can't change it.
I'm here because I believe I can make a difference.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mtnwoman said:


> Tell us. What if they do believe that? Does it really matter what they believe, if they aren't preselected? If not why bother with or care what they believe...no one even needs  to hear the good news or the correct news, if they aren't gonna be saved anyway. But since we don't know whether they are predestined to be saved, what difference does it still make? we can't change it.
> I'm here because I believe I can make a difference.


God preselected them to be Jehovah Witnesses, they didn't have a choice. Hard to let it go ain't it?


----------



## BrowningFan

centerpin fan said:


> I'll say it again:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll add that they also failed to make me disbelieve in the Trinity, the DBR of Christ, or any other core doctrine.
> 
> BTW, I'm not trying to pick on you, BF.  I just need a distraction.



Show me one verse from any W&H translation that says  Jesus is God in the flesh more plain than 1Tim 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


I can see why Art or any JW believes what they do as do others that use W&H text. With the TR translation there is no CONTROVERSY !

CP I don't take much personal .... I think at the end of the day you and I would agree on more than we disagree. You can keep coming at me as hard as you want. I like it! Makes me open my  AV more. I love it.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Tell us. What if they do believe that? Does it really matter what they believe, if they aren't preselected? If not why bother with or care what they believe...no one even needs  to hear the good news or the correct news, if they aren't gonna be saved anyway. But since we don't know whether they are predestined to be saved, what difference does it still make? we can't change it.
> I'm here because I believe I can make a difference.



It is not my desire to turn every thread into a discussion of election. I understand your angst regarding the issue. You may want to start another thread or perhaps we can discuss it with private messaging?


----------



## Artfuldodger

God was manifest in the flesh. The key word is "manifest". Some versions of the Bible say, Christ was manifest in the flesh. I'm not a KJV only person, although I did grow up using that version and have just recently started using others. It does take some getting use too.


----------



## DartonHunter101

BrowningFan said:


> Neither did Westcott and Hort. Their influence will be everlasting.



You assume a lot that is NOT true. 

Fact One: I am a JW.
Fact Two: I know Why and What I Believe.
Fact Three: I didn't believe in trinity when I only used a KJV
Fact Four: Me not believing in trinity has absolutly nothing to do with Westcott and Hort


----------



## centerpin fan

BrowningFan said:


> Show me one verse from any W&H translation that says  Jesus is God in the flesh more plain than 1Tim 3:16



The first one that came to mind is John 1:1.  After a little more looking, I found these:

Titus 2:13
2 Peter 1:1
Colossians 2:9

BTW, I don't think 1 Tim 3:16 is ambiguous in the critical text.  The context makes it obvious who is being discussed.


----------



## centerpin fan

BrowningFan said:


> .... I think at the end of the day you and I would agree on more than we disagree.



Definitely!


----------



## rjcruiser

DartonHunter101 said:


> You assume a lot that is NOT true.
> 
> Fact One: I am a JW.
> Fact Two: I know Why and What I Believe.
> Fact Three: I didn't believe in trinity when I only used a KJV
> Fact Four: Me not believing in trinity has absolutly nothing to do with Westcott and Hort



I just don't understand how one can believe that Jesus isn't God after reading John 1.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> I just don't understand how one can believe that Jesus isn't God after reading John 1.



I suspect they actually do.
But they choose to explain it in a different light than as "trinity".
We'll see.


----------



## DartonHunter101

Ronnie T said:


> I suspect they actually do.
> But they choose to explain it in a different light than as "trinity".
> We'll see.



No. I really believe Jesus is God's son, not the same person.


----------



## DartonHunter101

rjcruiser said:


> I just don't understand how one can believe that Jesus isn't God after reading John 1.



I take the whole bible, not one scripture, and there is no way I could ever believe in trinity. Then when you take a look at the history of the teaching, it is obvious for me where the teaching orginated and why. That is just for me.
If someone else takes the whole bible and the history behind the teaching and comes up with a belief in trinity that is a ok with me.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I've listed this before;
If Jesus was God

Good Question, At the very outset of Jesus’ ministry, when he came up out of the baptismal water, God’s voice from heaven said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” (Matthew 3:16, 17) Was God saying that he was his own son, that he approved himself, that he sent himself? No, God the Creator was saying that he, as the superior, was approving a lesser one, his Son Jesus, for the work ahead. Jesus indicated his Father’s superiority when he said: “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor.” (Luke 4:18) Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have. Jesus made his Father’s superiority clear when the mother of two disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and one at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom. Jesus answered: “As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father,” that is, God. (Matthew 20:23) Had Jesus been Almighty God, those positions would have been his to give. But Jesus could not give them, for they were God’s to give, and Jesus was not God.
Jesus’ own prayers are a powerful example of his inferior position. When Jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42) To whom was he praying? To a part of himself? No, he was praying to someone entirely separate, his Father, God, whose will was superior and could be different from his own, the only One able to “remove this cup. ”Then, as he neared death, Jesus cried out: “My God, my God, why have you deserted me?” (Mark 15:34, JB) To whom was Jesus crying out? To himself or to part of himself? Surely, that cry, “My God,” was not from someone who considered himself to be God. And if Jesus were God, then by whom was he deserted? Himself? That would not make sense. Jesus also said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46) If Jesus were God, for what reason should he entrust his spirit to the Father?After Jesus died, he was in the tomb for parts of three days. The Bible says that Jesus  died and was unconscious in the tomb. Who resurrected Jesus from the dead? If he was truly dead, he could not have resurrected himself. On the other hand, if he was not really dead, his pretended death would not have paid the ransom price for Adam’s sin. But he did pay that price in full by his genuine death. So it was “God [who] resurrected [Jesus] by loosing the pangs of death.” (Acts 2:24) 
Does Jesus’ ability to perform miracles, such as resurrecting people, indicate that he was God? Well, the apostles and the prophets Elijah and Elisha had that power too, but that did not make them more than men. God gave the power to perform miracles to the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles to show that He was backing them. But it did not make any of them part of a plural Godhead or trinity.

1 Timothy 2:5 
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."


----------



## rjcruiser

DartonHunter101 said:


> I take the whole bible, not one scripture, and there is no way I could ever believe in trinity. Then when you take a look at the history of the teaching, it is obvious for me where the teaching orginated and why. That is just for me.
> If someone else takes the whole bible and the history behind the teaching and comes up with a belief in trinity that is a ok with me.



Who brought up the Trinity?  Let's just focus on Jesus right now.

How can you read John 1 (the entire chapter) and come up with anything other than Jesus being God?

Who created the Heavens and the Earth in Genesis 1?


----------



## DartonHunter101

rjcruiser said:


> Who brought up the Trinity?  Let's just focus on Jesus right now.
> 
> How can you read John 1 (the entire chapter) and come up with anything other than Jesus being God?
> 
> Who created the Heavens and the Earth in Genesis 1?



Lets just take a common sense approach. The many many times Jesus prayed who was he praying to? was he mad? forgot who he was? look at the scriptures artdodger listed it is plain for me to see that Jesus did not believe he was Jehovah god.


----------



## Huntinfool

> look at the scriptures artdodger listed it is plain for me to see that Jesus did not believe he was Jehovah god.



_So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
 	(John 8:57-59 ESV)_

Why do you suppose the Jews picked up stones to kill him after he said this?  What is the implication of their action given what he said?

He claimed to have seen Abraham more than 2000 years prior to that date.  He used the same "Egō eimi" that God used to identify himself in Exodus 3:14.

_God said to Moses, “I am who I am.”1 And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’”_

He used the same "I am"...and the Jews, knowing what he was saying, immediately picked up stones to kill him.  

What do you suppose he meant by "I am"?


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> I've listed this before;
> If Jesus was God
> 
> Good Question, At the very outset of Jesus’ ministry, when he came up out of the baptismal water, God’s voice from heaven said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” (Matthew 3:16, 17) Was God saying that he was his own son, that he approved himself, that he sent himself? No, God the Creator was saying that he, as the superior, was approving a lesser one, his Son Jesus, for the work ahead. Jesus indicated his Father’s superiority when he said: “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor.” (Luke 4:18) Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have. Jesus made his Father’s superiority clear when the mother of two disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and one at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom. Jesus answered: “As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father,” that is, God. (Matthew 20:23) Had Jesus been Almighty God, those positions would have been his to give. But Jesus could not give them, for they were God’s to give, and Jesus was not God.
> Jesus’ own prayers are a powerful example of his inferior position. When Jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42) To whom was he praying? To a part of himself? No, he was praying to someone entirely separate, his Father, God, whose will was superior and could be different from his own, the only One able to “remove this cup. ”Then, as he neared death, Jesus cried out: “My God, my God, why have you deserted me?” (Mark 15:34, JB) To whom was Jesus crying out? To himself or to part of himself? Surely, that cry, “My God,” was not from someone who considered himself to be God. And if Jesus were God, then by whom was he deserted? Himself? That would not make sense. Jesus also said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46) If Jesus were God, for what reason should he entrust his spirit to the Father?After Jesus died, he was in the tomb for parts of three days. The Bible says that Jesus  died and was unconscious in the tomb. Who resurrected Jesus from the dead? If he was truly dead, he could not have resurrected himself. On the other hand, if he was not really dead, his pretended death would not have paid the ransom price for Adam’s sin. But he did pay that price in full by his genuine death. So it was “God [who] resurrected [Jesus] by loosing the pangs of death.” (Acts 2:24)
> Does Jesus’ ability to perform miracles, such as resurrecting people, indicate that he was God? Well, the apostles and the prophets Elijah and Elisha had that power too, but that did not make them more than men. God gave the power to perform miracles to the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles to show that He was backing them. But it did not make any of them part of a plural Godhead or trinity.
> 
> 1 Timothy 2:5
> For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
> 
> “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."



Well written.
Worth reading.
Thanks.

.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I should have said that it came from a website somewhere. I don't remember whose sight, but probably from a Jehovah's Witness site since it uses Jehovah as God. 
Why do J.W.'s use Jehovah as God?


----------



## mtnwoman

Huntinfool said:


> I was kidding....and clearly...



I knew you were kiddin', that's why I replied....


----------



## zedex

This is my first post in any religious thread, but I thought I'd share something with y'all.


I was raised as  JW and followed it until I was around 7 or so. I learned much during that time, but whether human nature or just being myself, I questioned things.

 The very first thing that struck me as odd, was the celebration of of birthdays. The way I see it, God gave us life and, according to the Bible, we are to cherish our life and our bodies. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 Now, given that, shouldn't we celebrate what God has given us? A few hours each year to show our appreciation for our, as well as our family's/friend's lifes??

 The same for Christmas, for example. We may know the date, maybe we are wrong. Does it matter? We are, afterall, showing appreciation for His son's life and life's work.

 Anyway, my questions brought an evil eye to me in the Kingdom Hall.

 When I was 9, I was severely burned-- over 1/3 of my body in 2nd and 3rd degree burns. The doctors told my parents that the only way to save me was through blood transfusions and skin grafts. They would have to use pigskin as a temporary graft and then, later, attach my own skin from my legs.

Obviously, my parents allowed this or I would not be typing this.

 Because of the permission given, my family was blacklisted and then bannished from the Kingdom Hall. 

 As a parent, I would not hestitate to allow this for my little girl. Any rational parent would do whatever it took to save his/her kid. But, for the JW, this is strictly and unquestionably a NO-NO.

About 5 years ago, the JW started coming around the house. My wife is Chinese who speaks fluent English. The Witnesses are savvy. They sent a Chinese girl to our place and she spoke Mandarin to my wife. The girl was all of 17 years old- still in high school. Their trick worked and my wife and the girl started having meetings once a week.

 Once, I asked the girl a question and she could not answer it so she said she would send someone by that could. That guy still comes around today.

 My question was "how do we know JW are the correct religion?"

 When the man came to answer the question, all I got from him was how the Witnesses put in so many millions of hours every year going to peoples' homes to spread the good word and how many thousands of languages their material is published in. I got no answer so I asked again. 
 And, again, all I got was a referral to their literature referencing this and that, yet still no answer.

 I let it lay. My wife is interested in learning more, so the same guy comes around.

 Last year sometime, I brought it up again, but this time in a different way. I noticed they NEVER have the Bible with them for studying, only reference. So, I asked how do we know that their interpetation is correct verses other's?

 The guy proceeded to inform me that they have placed their redentions in front of Biblical scholars of every known religion and that each and every one of them agreed that the JW version is the most correct version of the Bible and that even the Pope has agreed.

 Now, common sense {if I had any} would lead me to think that if you can say another religion has a better Bible and more accurate chain of events, ALL of these people would convert to JW. Believe it or not, there was answer to that, too. According to this guy, these people of religious power would rather enjoy their high positions of their churches than convert to what is proven right. Simply amazing !!

 Now, when I asked why we don't just study from the Bible rather than human's interpetation of it, all I got was that the one and only true Bible cannot be read and understood by humans. Well, slap me for being stupid, but if that is the case, where did this superior interpetation come from??

 My wife, as I said, still enjoys for them to come over once a week. She never goes to the Kingdom Hall. Sometimes, I'll listen in while I am doing other things- usually taking a nap or sitting where I am now.

 One thing remains constant: there is no good news, only gloom and doom. Its always how we are at the threshhold of "the end of the system of things" and the "great resurrection" and something about "the ransom".

 I did ask once how, if God-our Father- who loves us so much, could allow the life that we have with poverty, dispare, diease, injury, babies dying..... how could this go on and why is it even happening.

 The answer I got was that God was challenged by satan that he could control the earth and man better than God and he would do so by giving man the ability to think and act on his own. Rather than God just zapping satan away, He took satan up on this challenge. And, that God would allow this to happen for 2 days. At the end, if satan won the challenge, then God would step aside. But, if God won, then satan would be cast to the gates of H3!!.

 This, to me, seems like we are pawns in their game. God loves us so much, but yet we die for no good reason and we kill, we suffer birth defects and blemishes and defects of all sorts just for the amusement of God and satan.

 Something about this makes no sense to me. I still have alot more things I've been told if y'all want to hear about it.


----------



## DartonHunter101

Artfuldodger said:


> I should have said that it came from a website somewhere. I don't remember whose sight, but probably from a Jehovah's Witness site since it uses Jehovah as God.
> Why do J.W.'s use Jehovah as God?



Jehovah is the personal name of the only true God. His own self-designation. Jehovah is the Creator and, rightfully, the Sovereign Ruler of the universe. “Jehovah” is translated from the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, יהוה, which means “He Causes to Become.” These four Hebrew letters are represented in many languages by the letters JHVH or YHWH.
 It appeared in the orginal text over 7000 times and has been removed and replaced by LORD, which is not a name but a title. In my opinion our creature wrote the all time best seller, the bible, and his enemies have taken his own name out of his own book.


----------



## Artfuldodger

zedex said:


> This is my first post in any religious thread, but I thought I'd share something with y'all.
> 
> 
> I was raised as  JW and followed it until I was around 7 or so. I learned much during that time, but whether human nature or just being myself, I questioned things.
> 
> The very first thing that struck me as odd, was the c
> 
> The same for Christmas, for example. We may know the date, maybe we are wrong. Does it matter? We are, afterall, showing appreciation for His son's life and life's work.
> 
> Anyway, my questions brought an evil eye to me in the Kingdom Hall.
> 
> When I was 9, I was severely burned-- over 1/3 of my body in 2nd and 3rd degree burns. The doctors told my parents that the only way to save me was through blood transfusions and skin grafts. They would have to use pigskin as a temporary graft and then, later, attach my own skin from my legs.
> 
> Obviously, my parents allowed this or I would not be typing this.
> 
> 
> As a parent, I would not hestitate to allow this for my little girl. Any rational parent would do whatever it took to save his/her kid. But, for the JW, this is strictly and unquestionably a NO-NO.
> Now, when I asked why we don't just study from the Bible rather than human's interpetation of it, all I got was that the one and only true Bible cannot be read and understood by humans. Well, slap me for being stupid, but if that is the case, where did this superior interpetation come from??
> 
> One thing remains constant: there is no good news, only gloom and doom. Its always how we are at the threshhold of "the end of the system of things" and the "great resurrection" and something about "the ransom".
> 
> I did ask once how, if God-our Father- who loves us so much, could allow the life that we have with poverty, dispare, diease, injury, babies dying..... how could this go on and why is it even happening.
> 
> The answer I got was that God was challenged by satan that he could control the earth and man better than God and he would do so by giving man the ability to think and act on his own. Rather than God just zapping satan away, He took satan up on this challenge. And, that God would allow this to happen for 2 days. At the end, if satan won the challenge, then God would step aside. But, if God won, then satan would be cast to the gates of H3!!.
> 
> This, to me, seems like we are pawns in their game. God loves us so much, but yet we die for no good reason and we kill, we suffer birth defects and blemishes and defects of all sorts just for the amusement of God and satan.
> 
> Something about this makes no sense to me. I still have alot more things I've been told if y'all want to hear about it.


I too think some of their beliefs are a little too much. But then I think the same thing about Methodist & Pentecostals. There are mainstream Christians that don't celebrate Christmas. Others that don't drink tea. When I was a child it was ok to use the "N" word but I couldn't use the "swear" word. Biblical reasons.
It's amazing how your beliefs can change when it pertains to your child. Examples: blood transfusions, abortions, the draft, & helping kids out when in trouble with the Law.
Lots of "Gloom & Doom" preaching too except in the big churches in the cities. I see a lot of little white signs along the fence rows & in trees that say things like "The End is Near", "Repent or perish", "God is Angry at the wicked Everyday", "Flee the wrath to come", "Turn to Jesus Christ and away from sin or burn forever in the Lake of Fire" type stuff. 
I hope there is more to life than us being pawns in a game but I can see that line of reasoning when wondering about Satan's role in life.


----------



## zedex

Another lady I know, also Chinese, is a member of the 7th Day Advent.

 I was planning on getting some oysters the following day and offered to get her and her family some but quickly refused saying her religion does not allow them to eat oysters.

 According to her teachings, they are not allowed to eat any shellfish such as oysters, clams, mussels, crabs, shrimp and such. They also cannot eat pork and alot of other things.

 As I listened, it occurred to me that every animal she listed is a member of the earth's cleanup crew. Any scavaging animal is on the list. This was confirmed when she explained that these animals are "unclean".

 I can see where this makes sense, but is it also not in the Bible that we were told that we are given every living things to eat??

 So, I asked my mother about this. Not that she is any Biblical scholar, but I thought maybe she would know.  

 My mother told me that what the lady is saying is true in that, at one time- before the great flood, these were not to be consumed. However, it was after the flood that we were told that these animals were cleansed and given to us as well.

 Can anyone confirm or refute any of this?


----------



## DartonHunter101

zedex said:


> This is my first post in any religious thread, but I thought I'd share something with y'all.
> 
> 
> I was raised as  JW and followed it until I was around 7 or so. I learned much during that time, but whether human nature or just being myself, I questioned things.
> 
> The very first thing that struck me as odd, was the celebration of of birthdays. The way I see it, God gave us life and, according to the Bible, we are to cherish our life and our bodies. Please correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> Now, given that, shouldn't we celebrate what God has given us? A few hours each year to show our appreciation for our, as well as our family's/friend's lifes??
> 
> The same for Christmas, for example. We may know the date, maybe we are wrong. Does it matter? We are, afterall, showing appreciation for His son's life and life's work.
> 
> Anyway, my questions brought an evil eye to me in the Kingdom Hall.
> 
> When I was 9, I was severely burned-- over 1/3 of my body in 2nd and 3rd degree burns. The doctors told my parents that the only way to save me was through blood transfusions and skin grafts. They would have to use pigskin as a temporary graft and then, later, attach my own skin from my legs.
> 
> Obviously, my parents allowed this or I would not be typing this.
> 
> Because of the permission given, my family was blacklisted and then bannished from the Kingdom Hall.
> 
> As a parent, I would not hestitate to allow this for my little girl. Any rational parent would do whatever it took to save his/her kid. But, for the JW, this is strictly and unquestionably a NO-NO.
> 
> About 5 years ago, the JW started coming around the house. My wife is Chinese who speaks fluent English. The Witnesses are savvy. They sent a Chinese girl to our place and she spoke Mandarin to my wife. The girl was all of 17 years old- still in high school. Their trick worked and my wife and the girl started having meetings once a week.
> 
> Once, I asked the girl a question and she could not answer it so she said she would send someone by that could. That guy still comes around today.
> 
> My question was "how do we know JW are the correct religion?"
> 
> When the man came to answer the question, all I got from him was how the Witnesses put in so many millions of hours every year going to peoples' homes to spread the good word and how many thousands of languages their material is published in. I got no answer so I asked again.
> And, again, all I got was a referral to their literature referencing this and that, yet still no answer.
> 
> I let it lay. My wife is interested in learning more, so the same guy comes around.
> 
> Last year sometime, I brought it up again, but this time in a different way. I noticed they NEVER have the Bible with them for studying, only reference. So, I asked how do we know that their interpetation is correct verses other's?
> 
> The guy proceeded to inform me that they have placed their redentions in front of Biblical scholars of every known religion and that each and every one of them agreed that the JW version is the most correct version of the Bible and that even the Pope has agreed.
> 
> Now, common sense {if I had any} would lead me to think that if you can say another religion has a better Bible and more accurate chain of events, ALL of these people would convert to JW. Believe it or not, there was answer to that, too. According to this guy, these people of religious power would rather enjoy their high positions of their churches than convert to what is proven right. Simply amazing !!
> 
> Now, when I asked why we don't just study from the Bible rather than human's interpetation of it, all I got was that the one and only true Bible cannot be read and understood by humans. Well, slap me for being stupid, but if that is the case, where did this superior interpetation come from??
> 
> My wife, as I said, still enjoys for them to come over once a week. She never goes to the Kingdom Hall. Sometimes, I'll listen in while I am doing other things- usually taking a nap or sitting where I am now.
> 
> One thing remains constant: there is no good news, only gloom and doom. Its always how we are at the threshhold of "the end of the system of things" and the "great resurrection" and something about "the ransom".
> 
> I did ask once how, if God-our Father- who loves us so much, could allow the life that we have with poverty, dispare, diease, injury, babies dying..... how could this go on and why is it even happening.
> 
> The answer I got was that God was challenged by satan that he could control the earth and man better than God and he would do so by giving man the ability to think and act on his own. Rather than God just zapping satan away, He took satan up on this challenge. And, that God would allow this to happen for 2 days. At the end, if satan won the challenge, then God would step aside. But, if God won, then satan would be cast to the gates of H3!!.
> 
> This, to me, seems like we are pawns in their game. God loves us so much, but yet we die for no good reason and we kill, we suffer birth defects and blemishes and defects of all sorts just for the amusement of God and satan.
> 
> Something about this makes no sense to me. I still have alot more things I've been told if y'all want to hear about it.



It sounds like you got your perspective a very young age and maybe you didn’t have a good understanding. I say that because any JW would be able to tell you why biblically we do not celebrate birthdays or Christmas, and you apparently don’t know. 
Secondly no one gets disfellowshipped or Blacklisted for taking blood. That is a conscious decision. The reasons  someone gets disfellowshiped is listed at 1 cor 6 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. They only get disfellowship if they make a practice of these things and are unrepentant about it.
Gloom and doom is definitely not true. We call the theme of the bible The Good News of the God’s Kingdom. It really is a great happy message. It points us to time when the earth will be full of righteous people and ruled by Jesus Christ.
My question was "how do we know JW are the correct religion? The answer you say was given just doesn’t seem like the total answer I have ever heard from any Witness. For me I have studied the bible and bible prophecy and compared to history and decided for me it is the correct religion, but I would never tell anyone that is correct for them without they themselves researching the issues and making their own choice. It is literally 100’s of items not any one specific and you have to put in the time to research them for yourself Prov 2 1-5. Everyone has to make their own choice.
I find it very strange that so many people want to say what Jehovah Witnesses believe and they are not witnesses and the whole story is normally not being told. It is like asking one Presidential candidate what the other believes; you get a lot of half truths and some outright lies. I use to be a Baptist but I don’t speak for the Baptist. If anyone has any questions about our beliefs I will be glad to answer on here if possible, or in PMs, or in person. I am a hunter and fisherman, love archery, not a religious fanatic, and I always respect everyone’s beliefs, because that is what our creature does. He could make us dance like puppets but instead gives us the free right to choose.


----------



## centerpin fan

DartonHunter101 said:


> ... He could make us dance like puppets but instead gives us the free right to choose.



Uh oh.


----------



## hobbs27

Got this from an ex JW, so if any present day JW wants to refute it, be my guest.
What JW's believe

ARMEGEDDON:God will soon wage war against mankind, destroying everyone on earth except Jehovahs Witnesses. The churches of Christendom, they say, will be the first to be destroyed.

Birthdays: Celebrating a birthday in any manner is strictly forbidden.Even sending a birthday card can bring swift action against the offender by an official "judicial committee." The punishment is "disfellowshiping."

Blood Transfusions: In actual practice, JW's view accepting a blood transfusion as a sin more serious than theft or adultery.Theives and adulterers are more quickly forgiven by Watchtower judicial committees than individuals found guilty of taking blood. A witness must refuse blood in all circumstances, even when it is certain to result in death.The organization also requires adults to refuse transfusions for their minor children.
I have many more beliefs the ex JW explains but I want to save space and typing time to get to something I find even more strange.
For 3/4 of a century the Watchtower Society issued followers the KJV bible, and later on the ASV because it featured the name Jehovah throughout the Old Testament, and along with this came detailed instructions on how to make the scriptures appear to teach that God outlawed vaccinations, that Abraham and the faithful prophets would be resurrected to this earth in 1925, that God inspired the Great Pyramid of Egypt, and so on.But there were some doctrines that were VERY difficult to derive from the KJV and the ASV no matter how much twisting was applied to the text.
 In 1950's Watchtower leaders produced their own version of bible with hundreds of verses changed to fit Watchtower doctrines, and their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures continues to be rewritten every few years, with additional changes made to bring Gods Word closer to their teachings.


----------



## DartonHunter101

hobbs27 said:


> Got this from an ex JW, so if any present day JW wants to refute it, be my guest.
> What JW's believe
> 
> ARMEGEDDON:God will soon wage war against mankind, destroying everyone on earth except Jehovahs Witnesses. The churches of Christendom, they say, will be the first to be destroyed.
> 
> Birthdays: Celebrating a birthday in any manner is strictly forbidden.Even sending a birthday card can bring swift action against the offender by an official "judicial committee." The punishment is "disfellowshiping."
> 
> Blood Transfusions: In actual practice, JW's view accepting a blood transfusion as a sin more serious than theft or adultery.Theives and adulterers are more quickly forgiven by Watchtower judicial committees than individuals found guilty of taking blood. A witness must refuse blood in all circumstances, even when it is certain to result in death.The organization also requires adults to refuse transfusions for their minor children.
> I have many more beliefs the ex JW explains but I want to save space and typing time to get to something I find even more strange.
> For 3/4 of a century the Watchtower Society issued followers the KJV bible, and later on the ASV because it featured the name Jehovah throughout the Old Testament, and along with this came detailed instructions on how to make the scriptures appear to teach that God outlawed vaccinations, that Abraham and the faithful prophets would be resurrected to this earth in 1925, that God inspired the Great Pyramid of Egypt, and so on.But there were some doctrines that were VERY difficult to derive from the KJV and the ASV no matter how much twisting was applied to the text.
> In 1950's Watchtower leaders produced their own version of bible with hundreds of verses changed to fit Watchtower doctrines, and their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures continues to be rewritten every few years, with additional changes made to bring Gods Word closer to their teachings.



another example


----------



## hobbs27

Christianity: Except for a few scattered individuals who kept to the faith, true Christianity vanished from the face of the earth shortly after the death of the twelve apostles  according to JW's.It was not restored until Charles Taze Russell set up the Watchtower organization in the late 1870's. When Christ returned invisibly in 1914, he found Russell's group doing the work of the "faithful and wise servant" and appointed them over all his belongings. All other churches and professed Christians are actually tools of the devil.

Hmmm. So I am a tool of the devil? Better watch out.


----------



## RedlandCreekGreg

Darton Hunter 101

I have read your replies to questions here and I have found them on par. One statement about the KJV leads me to believe that you were not born a JW, would this be correct?

I was raised as a JW and my dad was an elder here until the day he passed away. I am sure you would have known him because he was part of every "Quick Build" and disaster recovery effort around here. My mother is still a JW and is in the field service (as it is called) almost every day.

Being from a small community and growing up in the 60's and 70's it was tough being a JW kid. As you and I both know our families are just like any others and at the Kingdom Hall there is no gossip and putting others down, everybody helps and uplifts each other. But as I said things used to be hard on kids when they were in school.

In the late 60's my older sister (16 years older than me) was disfellowshiped. Do you know what happened back then? No one from the faith would have anything to do with them and to my parents she became "spiritually dead"   I could tell my mom and dad struggled with this even becoming in active at one time. Can you imagine how a kid feels to see his sister treated like this? I knew if I didn't get baptized that I couldn't be disfellowshiped so I never was baptized and as soon as I was old enough I didn't go back.

The reason I told this story is because I feel like that may have been what happened at the funeral that the people was attending.(the one that started this thread.) Through the years there has been "new light" on this subject and others but I don't think everyone got the memo !

This being said I applaud you folks for being able to get along as a group the way yall do and work together the way yall do but some of the more out there teachings need to be reigned in some.


----------



## hobbs27

RedlandCreekGreg said:


> Darton Hunter 101
> 
> 
> 
> Being from a small community and growing up in the 60's and 70's it was tough being a JW kid.
> 
> .



My neighbor and best friend growing up was JW, and I didn't even know that until we were in our teens, but when I found out a lot of things started coming back to me....how he never celebrated a birthday, how he always showed up at our house after lunchtime on Christmas day to see what my brother and I got, but never had any toys himself... Thinking back now at all the great birthday parties I had and the fun the whole family had at Christmas time sharing gifts and time with one another I truly do feel sorry for the JW kids that miss out.  

I remember another story from my mom about a friend of hers that was JW and as a child she saw Santa Clause sitting in a chair at a dept. store, and shouted to her mom with a smile on her face. "look ma there's santa clause." My mom said she was scolded and slapped and told right there in public there was no such thing. Very sad


----------



## zedex

I think everyone should belive as they see fit, but I have to question so many things about JW's as well as any other religion. As for myself, I believe in God; I know he exsists, however, I still have so many questions no one of any faith has been able to answer.

 So, for all the JW's out there, please do not feel as though I am picking on you or calling you out. But, the JW's leave so many questioned unasnwered and instead of giving direct answers, always seem to beat around the bush without ever going into it.

 For example, please rationalize why birthdays should not be celebrated when each day and each year is a gift from God. Should we not rejoice?

 Not, speaking of gloom and doom, which seems to be the way of JW's, why is it considered a good thing that the end of the system of things is coming when that end surely means death and torture for everyone? I hardly consider that a good thing.

 Also, according to JW's, there are 144,000 chosen ones that will serve as some sort of overseers to earth after the big day. The rest are only Witnesses. How are we to know that the Witnesses are the only ones to be resurected? If the faith and practice of the faith is still there, why can others not be resurected?

 Why can't studies be directly from the Bible rather than an interupitation {sp}? If the Word is so good, let's get it straight from the Good Book instead of page hopping in order to make things fit??

 And, if the Bible is "life's owner's manual", shouldn't we be studying from that?? All the other publications are, to me anyways, a waste. Let's go straight to the source- the Bible. But, the fella that comes by here every week refuses to. Maybe I am wrong, but that makes no sense to me. It's kind of like buying a Chevy, but reading a Ford manual because it fits our idea as to how things "really" are.

 Now, the JW's say they publish their materials in so many languages and that anyone not using their books are bound for h3!l for all eternity. Off this, I ask what of those that are not able to be accessed by JW's?? What of all those who have died before the JW material was ever available?? They are condemned to life in h3!l for being innocent. This hardly seems just to me. The childern that have died without ever having heard of any religion are condemned, too. 

 And, this is the same God that loves us, gave us life and uses us in a game with satan.

 Please explain.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> Uh oh.



I'll pass.


----------



## RedlandCreekGreg

Zedex
As I stated I am not a JW but as a kid I remember my dad and other JW's used only the Bible to answer questions and the other books were considered learning tools that always refer back to scripture. One thing my dad would do is use the Bible you chose to answer questions.


----------



## hobbs27

zedex said:


> . As for myself, I believe in God; I know he exsists, however, I still have so many questions no one of any faith has been able to answer.



IMHO, God's relationship to his children is very personal, and somethings just can't be answered by man.Somethings we are not to know on this side, and I've seen people beat themselves up trying to figure out black words on white paper. Humble prayer, an open ear for that small still voice, being aware of Gods presence around you and knowing when he is working in your life should give you all the answers you need.

Several years ago a small church close to me had a riverside service and Baptism.Once at the river bank someone realized they were short on songbooks so he made a run back to the church to get more books.Once there he noticed a vehicle in the lot with a man sitting in the car, he approached the man and talked with him and the man said God had led him to visit with the church that day and he was upset to find out there was no service. He explained that service had just been moved to the river and asked for him to follow him down and he did.
 The church sang, and praised God.The candidates for Baptism were Baptized and once on dry ground the preacher delivered a message and charged the new members of the church....then he felt led to offer an invitation and the man that was visiting knelt down on a chair they had sat up for an altar and worked things out with God...he came up from there a new man, and testafied to the congregation that he had been a bad person in the past and had just been released from a 10 year sentence in prison, and while in prison he had read the bible through and through, but he had never understood it until that moment..He said he understand after feeling the love from strangers and hearing the word preached that day. 
 To me that's what it is all about, so many times I have failed but God has always been there for me and his word Galvanizes my understanding now.


----------



## DartonHunter101

hobbs27 said:


> Got this from an ex JW, so if any present day JW wants to refute it, be my guest.
> What JW's believe
> 
> ARMEGEDDON:God will soon wage war against mankind, destroying everyone on earth except Jehovahs Witnesses. The churches of Christendom, they say, will be the first to be destroyed.
> 
> Birthdays: Celebrating a birthday in any manner is strictly forbidden.Even sending a birthday card can bring swift action against the offender by an official "judicial committee." The punishment is "disfellowshiping."
> 
> Blood Transfusions: In actual practice, JW's view accepting a blood transfusion as a sin more serious than theft or adultery.Theives and adulterers are more quickly forgiven by Watchtower judicial committees than individuals found guilty of taking blood. A witness must refuse blood in all circumstances, even when it is certain to result in death.The organization also requires adults to refuse transfusions for their minor children.
> I have many more beliefs the ex JW explains but I want to save space and typing time to get to something I find even more strange.
> For 3/4 of a century the Watchtower Society issued followers the KJV bible, and later on the ASV because it featured the name Jehovah throughout the Old Testament, and along with this came detailed instructions on how to make the scriptures appear to teach that God outlawed vaccinations, that Abraham and the faithful prophets would be resurrected to this earth in 1925, that God inspired the Great Pyramid of Egypt, and so on.But there were some doctrines that were VERY difficult to derive from the KJV and the ASV no matter how much twisting was applied to the text.
> In 1950's Watchtower leaders produced their own version of bible with hundreds of verses changed to fit Watchtower doctrines, and their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures continues to be rewritten every few years, with additional changes made to bring Gods Word closer to their teachings.



You peddle a lot of gossip and slander....um...What faith are you?


----------



## DartonHunter101

RedlandCreekGreg said:


> Darton Hunter 101
> 
> I have read your replies to questions here and I have found them on par. One statement about the KJV leads me to believe that you were not born a JW, would this be correct?
> 
> I was raised as a JW and my dad was an elder here until the day he passed away. I am sure you would have known him because he was part of every "Quick Build" and disaster recovery effort around here. My mother is still a JW and is in the field service (as it is called) almost every day.
> 
> Being from a small community and growing up in the 60's and 70's it was tough being a JW kid. As you and I both know our families are just like any others and at the Kingdom Hall there is no gossip and putting others down, everybody helps and uplifts each other. But as I said things used to be hard on kids when they were in school.
> 
> In the late 60's my older sister (16 years older than me) was disfellowshiped. Do you know what happened back then? No one from the faith would have anything to do with them and to my parents she became "spiritually dead"   I could tell my mom and dad struggled with this even becoming in active at one time. Can you imagine how a kid feels to see his sister treated like this? I knew if I didn't get baptized that I couldn't be disfellowshiped so I never was baptized and as soon as I was old enough I didn't go back.
> 
> The reason I told this story is because I feel like that may have been what happened at the funeral that the people was attending.(the one that started this thread.) Through the years there has been "new light" on this subject and others but I don't think everyone got the memo !
> 
> This being said I applaud you folks for being able to get along as a group the way yall do and work together the way yall do but some of the more out there teachings need to be reigned in some.



 Yes I was raised a Baptist. My whole family is Baptist. I attended numerous denomiations coming up. I got baptized as a JW at age 25.
Not sure what happened at the furneral, that could be the case. However I have seen JW's have poor conduct and be rude, just like everyone, and there is no excuse for it.


----------



## hobbs27

DartonHunter101 said:


> You peddle a lot of gossip and slander....um...What faith are you?



Your welcome to refute any of the comments as I said this comes from an ex JW. As for my faith I am just one of those sinners saved by grace that attends several different denominations of churches.


----------



## DartonHunter101

zedex said:


> I think everyone should belive as they see fit, but I have to question so many things about JW's as well as any other religion. As for myself, I believe in God; I know he exsists, however, I still have so many questions no one of any faith has been able to answer.
> 
> So, for all the JW's out there, please do not feel as though I am picking on you or calling you out. But, the JW's leave so many questioned unasnwered and instead of giving direct answers, always seem to beat around the bush without ever going into it.
> 
> For example, please rationalize why birthdays should not be celebrated when each day and each year is a gift from God. Should we not rejoice?
> 
> Not, speaking of gloom and doom, which seems to be the way of JW's, why is it considered a good thing that the end of the system of things is coming when that end surely means death and torture for everyone? I hardly consider that a good thing.
> 
> Also, according to JW's, there are 144,000 chosen ones that will serve as some sort of overseers to earth after the big day. The rest are only Witnesses. How are we to know that the Witnesses are the only ones to be resurected? If the faith and practice of the faith is still there, why can others not be resurected?
> 
> Why can't studies be directly from the Bible rather than an interupitation {sp}? If the Word is so good, let's get it straight from the Good Book instead of page hopping in order to make things fit??
> 
> And, if the Bible is "life's owner's manual", shouldn't we be studying from that?? All the other publications are, to me anyways, a waste. Let's go straight to the source- the Bible. But, the fella that comes by here every week refuses to. Maybe I am wrong, but that makes no sense to me. It's kind of like buying a Chevy, but reading a Ford manual because it fits our idea as to how things "really" are.
> 
> Now, the JW's say they publish their materials in so many languages and that anyone not using their books are bound for h3!l for all eternity. Off this, I ask what of those that are not able to be accessed by JW's?? What of all those who have died before the JW material was ever available?? They are condemned to life in h3!l for being innocent. This hardly seems just to me. The childern that have died without ever having heard of any religion are condemned, too.
> 
> And, this is the same God that loves us, gave us life and uses us in a game with satan.
> 
> Please explain.



Lets cover Birthdays. Now whether you agree or disagree, celebrate or don't is your choice and I will respect it. I only ask the same.

As a Christian we avoid any activities that are associated with pagan worship. So when we look at where birthdays came from, you find that it was found in pagan societies. 

The Encyclopedia Americana (1991 edition) notes: “The ancient world of Egypt, Greece, Rome, and Persia celebrated the birthdays of gods, kings, and nobles.” It says that the Romans observed the birth of Artemis and the day of Apollo. In contrast, “although the ancient Israelis kept records of the ages of their male citizens, there is no evidence that they had any festivities on the anniversary of the birth date.”

‘Birthday parties began years ago in Europe. People believed in good and evil spirits, sometimes called good and evil fairies. Everyone was afraid of these spirits, that they would cause harm to the birthday celebrant, and so he was surrounded by friends and relatives whose good wishes, and very presence, would protect him against the unknown dangers that the birthday held. Giving gifts brought even greater protection. Eating together provided a further safeguard and helped to bring the blessings of the good spirits. So the birthday party was originally intended to make a person safe from evil and to insure a good year to come.’—Birthday Parties Around the World, 1967
“The reason [for using candles] goes back to the early Greeks and Romans who thought that tapers or candles had magical qualities. They would offer prayers and make wishes to be carried up to the gods by the flames of candles. The gods would then send down their blessings and perhaps answer the prayers.” 
—Birthday Parties Around the World, 1967

What doe the Bible say about birthdays?

Gen. 40:20-22: “Now on the third day it turned out to be Pharaoh’s birthday, and he proceeded to make a feast . . . Accordingly he returned the chief of the cupbearers to his post of cupbearer . . . But the chief of the bakers he hung up.”
Matt. 14:6-10: “When Herod’s birthday was being celebrated the daughter of Herodias danced at it and pleased Herod so much that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she asked. Then she, under her mother’s coaching, said: ‘Give me here upon a platter the head of John the Baptist.’ . . . He sent and had John beheaded in the prison.”
Everything that is in the Bible is there for a reason. (2 Tim. 3:16, 17) 

I looked up the history of when birthdays started to be celebrated and it was notable that NO Christians celebrate birthdays until the 3rd to 4th century. That was the same time a lot of other pagan origins came onto the scene. 
The fact that the history of birthdays is rooted in superstition and false religion, the bible records them in a unfavorable light, and early Christians would not participate have I elected to stay away from them.
That is just my choice, everyone has to make a choice for themselves.


----------



## DartonHunter101

hobbs27 said:


> Your welcome to refute any of the comments as I said this comes from an ex JW. As for my faith I am just one of those sinners saved by grace that attends several different denominations of churches.



I dont deal in gossip. If you want to know what we believe just ask I will tell you, I am not ashamed, that way you wont have to spread lies.It is pretty immature to spread that stuff and is definitly not taught by Jesus to gossip and slander. What you have said is not true.

 What if I got on here and said I heard from a guy that knew someone that attended your chruch. He said they believe in human sacerfice and whorshiped the devil.  The preacher said he was Jesus and that all the woman in the chruch was his to have. In my book it is not Christian by long way, but if you want to peddle your lies and gossip go ahead.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

DartonHunter101 said:


> You peddle a lot of gossip and slander....um...What faith are you?



That's an interesting comment, considering a JW co-worker of mine pretty much echoed what he said word for word.


----------



## BrowningFan

DartonHunter101 said:


> You peddle a lot of gossip and slander....um...What faith are you?



Here is a simple question ..... What Gospel do JW's preach or teach ? There are several Gospel Everlasting , Kingdon ect and they all are different , so which Gospel do JW's preach?


----------



## zedex

From what I learned in my time in the Kingdom Hall and from listening to the guy here, they teach that "the end of the system of things is upon us" and that God will send his people to destroy every living thing on earth and all those that are not JW will be destroyed.

 Then, the 144,000 chosen ones will rule over the earth and faithful followers of JW religion will have a paradise.

 Like I said before, all I've ever heard from any JW is gloom and doom and how wonderful things are going to be in the Kingdom of Heaven.

 I also noticed that every JW speaks in a voice that sounds as though they've been crying; soft, low toned, and crackling sound. 

 As for any religion, people should use their own mind and make a sound judgement as to what is right for themselves. I really believe in that. Throughout the years, I've been to a number of churches and expirienced many religions. One thing that keeps coming back to me is that it really does not matter the organization you choose because no Bible has ever said to worship under the cloak of any particular religion. Only that we should believe, have faith and follow faith. 

Nondenominational churches do not look down on any religion but practice one unity: congregate to worship. I like this idea. It is simple and many only read straight from the Bible- no other literature, no other materials. Just the Bible and what It says.

 Other religions seem to look down their noses at this simple concept. Why?? Because there is no real agenda and the freedom of mind God gave us is used. 

When I told the man that comes here about this, he pretty much quit talking to me unless his trying to sell me on JW thoughts Well, being judgemental is not being very "Christian" is it??


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

zedex said:


> From what I learned in my time in the Kingdom Hall and from listening to the guy here, they teach that "the end of the system of things is upon us" and that God will send his people to destroy every living thing on earth and all those that are not JW will be destroyed.



Sounds vaguely like radical Islam..


----------



## hobbs27

DartonHunter101 said:


> I looked up the history of when birthdays started to be celebrated and it was notable that NO Christians celebrate birthdays until the 3rd to 4th century. That was the same time a lot of other pagan origins came onto the scene.
> The fact that the history of birthdays is rooted in superstition and false religion, the bible records them in a unfavorable light, and early Christians would not participate have I elected to stay away from them.
> That is just my choice, everyone has to make a choice for themselves.




Ok maybe not a Christian but what about a man that was found to be perfect in the eyes of God?
I found where Job sons celebrated birthdays, Job being the oldest book takes us back way before 3rd or 4th century.
 Job 1:4 And his sons went and feasted _in their_houses,every one his day;and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.

The term (his day) is clearly the birthday as we continue to read on Job 3:1
 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.
2.And Job spake, and said,
3.Let the day perish wherein I was born, 

That's enough for me if Job and his sons can celebrate birthdays, and Job being a man seen as being perfect in Gods eye's then...Happy Birthday to me!


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

hobbs27 said:


> Ok maybe not a Christian but what about a man that was found to be perfect in the eyes of God?
> I found where Job sons celebrated birthdays, Job being the oldest book takes us back way before 3rd or 4th century.
> Job 1:4 And his sons went and feasted _in their_houses,every one his day;and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
> 
> The term (his day) is clearly the birthday as we continue to read on Job 3:1
> After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.
> 2.And Job spake, and said,
> 3.Let the day perish wherein I was born,
> 
> That's enough for me if Job and his sons can celebrate birthdays, and Job being a man seen as being perfect in Gods eye's then...Happy Birthday to me!



Jews celebrated Mitzvah's long before Christianity came about. It was not a pagan practice at that time.


----------



## hobbs27

DartonHunter101 said:


> What if I got on here and said I heard from a guy that knew someone that attended your chruch. He said they believe in human sacerfice and whorshiped the devil.  The preacher said he was Jesus and that all the woman in the chruch was his to have. In my book it is not Christian by long way, but if you want to peddle your lies and gossip go ahead.




The churches I've attended have open doors to all, so not only would most people know it was false, you would be welcome to stop in any Sunday and see for yourself.


----------



## DartonHunter101

BrowningFan said:


> Here is a simple question ..... What Gospel do JW's preach or teach ? There are several Gospel Everlasting , Kingdon ect and they all are different , so which Gospel do JW's preach?



not sure what you mean, but sometimes refer to the Good News of God's Kingdom.


----------



## DartonHunter101

zedex said:


> From what I learned in my time in the Kingdom Hall and from listening to the guy here, they teach that "the end of the system of things is upon us" and that God will send his people to destroy every living thing on earth and all those that are not JW will be destroyed.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> We believe we are in the last days, but when the end comes no one knows. I think the majority of Christian faith believe this today. All those living on the earth that is not faithful will be destroyed; including Jehovah's Witness that are not faithful. Who will survive is not for me to judge, but I do know that just because you are a Jehovah's Witness does not mean you will survive.


----------



## DartonHunter101

hobbs27 said:


> The churches I've attended have open doors to all, so not only would most people know it was false, you would be welcome to stop in any Sunday and see for yourself.



Anyone is welcome to any Kingdom Hall. That is why we go out door to door is to get people to come. If you went I think you would see what you have said is not  the truth.


----------



## DartonHunter101

hobbs27 said:


> Ok maybe not a Christian but what about a man that was found to be perfect in the eyes of God?
> I found where Job sons celebrated birthdays, Job being the oldest book takes us back way before 3rd or 4th century.
> Job 1:4 And his sons went and feasted _in their_houses,every one his day;and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
> 
> The term (his day) is clearly the birthday as we continue to read on Job 3:1
> After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.
> 2.And Job spake, and said,
> 3.Let the day perish wherein I was born,
> 
> That's enough for me if Job and his sons can celebrate birthdays, and Job being a man seen as being perfect in Gods eye's then...Happy Birthday to me!



Try checking some other translation it helps. here is the american standard version Job 1:4 His sons used to take turns giving feasts, sending invitations to their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 
The original-language words for “day” and “birthday” are different, each having its own meaning. (Genesis 40:20) At Job 1:4, the word “day” is used, denoting an interval of time from sunrise to sunset. The seven sons of Job apparently held a seven-day family gathering once a year. As they made the circuit, each son was the host of the banquet held at his house on “his own day.”


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

DartonHunter101 said:


> Try checking some other translation it helps. here is the american standard version Job 1:4 His sons used to take turns giving feasts, sending invitations to their three sisters to eat and drink with them.
> The original-language words for “day” and “birthday” are different, each having its own meaning. (Genesis 40:20) At Job 1:4, the word “day” is used, denoting an interval of time from sunrise to sunset. The seven sons of Job apparently held a seven-day family gathering once a year. As they made the circuit, each son was the host of the banquet held at his house on “his own day.”



This is not accurate. Job was Jewish, and the Jewish day has always been from one sunset to the next.


----------



## Huntinfool

Huntinfool said:


> _So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
> (John 8:57-59 ESV)_
> 
> Why do you suppose the Jews picked up stones to kill him after he said this?  What is the implication of their action given what he said?
> 
> He claimed to have seen Abraham more than 2000 years prior to that date.  He used the same "EgÅ� eimi" that God used to identify himself in Exodus 3:14.
> 
> _God said to Moses, “I am who I am.”1 And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’”_
> 
> He used the same "I am"...and the Jews, knowing what he was saying, immediately picked up stones to kill him.
> 
> What do you suppose he meant by "I am"?


----------



## hobbs27

DartonHunter101 said:


> Try checking some other translation it helps. here is the american standard version Job 1:4 His sons used to take turns giving feasts, sending invitations to their three sisters to eat and drink with them.
> The original-language words for “day” and “birthday” are different, each having its own meaning. (Genesis 40:20) At Job 1:4, the word “day” is used, denoting an interval of time from sunrise to sunset. The seven sons of Job apparently held a seven-day family gathering once a year. As they made the circuit, each son was the host of the banquet held at his house on “his own day.”



Instead of playing these games of "twisting", let's be fair and use the version that JW's go by..
 Here's straight from the NWT .

4And his sons went and held a banquet at the house of each one on his own day; and they sent and invited their three sisters to eat and drink with them.

Now
1It was after this that Job opened his mouth and began to call down evil upon his day. 2Job now answered and said:

3“Let the day perish on which I came to be born


You may want to bring this scripture up to one of the elders so they can have this changed.


----------



## jigman29

During the 16 years I spent as a jehovah's Witness here are a few questions I would like to hear your opinion on since I wasn't allowed to question things when I was there.

1)Why is Charles Taze Russel considered the man who started the witnesses when he is in fact the 2nd or 3rd person to try and the only one to make it stick?
2)Since no one knows when the end is near why have the witnesses announced the end only to have it be wrong and I personally knew several people who went in debt head head over heals in the 70s when the watchtower gave a date when it would end?

3) Why are the witnesses not allowed to celebrate the birth of the child or the god they love but they can celebrate wedding anniversaries?

4)Why can you not celebrate christmas but when someone gives you a gift you are allowed to take it the day after christmas,and everywhere I have worked they don't take part in any holiday celebration but they are the first in line for christmas bonuses and free hams or turkeys?

Lastly,why are you supposed to go door to door and try to recruit people to the hall but are not allowed to go to other churches for any reason or read any books from any other churches?I remember when my granny's dad died his funeral was held in a church and my granny not being able to go into the church,we had to stand outside when until he was brought out.

That's all the questions I have but I will give a few examples of the things I had to go through while there just to give an example or two.When we were kids we had to stand out in the hall during holiday or birthday parties while our friends were having fun in the class.I begged not to have to go to school on these days but we were expected to go and seem like almost a martyr.Also none of us were ever allowed to go on a date unless one parent from either person went along as a chapperone,and I evensaw this with people in the mid-20s.Last of all I remember my step dad beating my mom and cheating on her when I was 8 years old and even though her divorce was finalized we had to sneal around and get pictures of him leaving his girlfriends house before the elders would "allow" her to be divorced spiritually.Since I am considered an apostate you are not allowed to talk to me and discuss these things I would love to hear you answers to these questions,I am sure the congregations I attended were a little more strict than most this happened in most to some degree in all of them.Sorry for being so long winded.


----------



## BrowningFan

DartonHunter101 said:


> not sure what you mean, but sometimes refer to the Good News of God's Kingdom.



Yes this the standard JW's answer but Paul says in Galatians 


1:7-8
 (KJV)
 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

This is not God's Kingdom

This is what Gospel Paul is Preaching

1 Corinthians 15

 1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Paul was given this Gospel by revelation 


Romans 16:25

 25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,



This is Paul's warning from God to anyone that doesn't preach they Good News of the Death Burial and Resurrection 

Galatians 1:6-12
King James Version (KJV)
 6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

 9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

 11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

 12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.



For the life of me I have spoken to 100's maybe 1000's of JW's and NOT ONE has even witnessed to me the DBR of Jesus Christ .... but most of the time they want to witness about the Gospel of the Kingdom. From what I read God says every JW is accursed for preaching a false Gospel (Kingdom) and not the Gospel of the DBR of Jesus Christ. Again the Gospel of the Kingdom is not Paul's Gospel.


----------



## DartonHunter101

Miguel Cervantes said:


> This is not accurate. Job was Jewish, and the Jewish day has always been from one sunset to the next.


Reasearch a little more, Job was an Oriental. When I say I worked all day that does not mean I worked from 12 midnight to 12 midnight. Day is used as a period of time. However it is worth noting that all the bible scholars have not translate this as birthday. The hebrew word for birthday is different then the word day, because there are different meanings here is Exodus 40 20-23  And it came to pass the third day, which was Pharaoh’s birthday, that he made a feast unto all his servants: and he lifted up the head of the chief butler and the head of the chief baker among his servants. 21 And he restored the chief butler unto his butlership again; and he gave the cup into Pharaoh’s hand: 22 but he hanged the chief baker: as Joseph had interpreted to them. 23 Yet did not the chief butler remember Joseph, but forgat him.


----------



## DartonHunter101

BrowningFan said:


> Yes this the standard JW's answer but Paul says in Galatians
> 
> 
> 1:7-8
> (KJV)
> 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
> 
> 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
> 
> This is not God's Kingdom
> 
> This is what Gospel Paul is Preaching
> 
> 1 Corinthians 15
> 
> 1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
> 
> 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
> 
> 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
> 
> 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
> 
> Paul was given this Gospel by revelation
> 
> 
> Romans 16:25
> 
> 25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
> 
> 
> 
> This is Paul's warning from God to anyone that doesn't preach they Good News of the Death Burial and Resurrection
> 
> Galatians 1:6-12
> King James Version (KJV)
> 6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
> 
> 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
> 
> 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
> 
> 9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
> 
> 10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
> 
> 11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
> 
> 12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
> 
> 
> 
> For the life of me I have spoken to 100's maybe 1000's of JW's and NOT ONE has even witnessed to me the DBR of Jesus Christ .... but most of the time they want to witness about the Gospel of the Kingdom. From what I read God says every JW is accursed for preaching a false Gospel (Kingdom) and not the Gospel of the DBR of Jesus Christ. Again the Gospel of the Kingdom is not Paul's Gospel.



I believe we are on different wave lenghts, so all I can do is wish you the best.


----------



## DartonHunter101

jigman29 said:


> During the 16 years I spent as a jehovah's Witness here are a few questions I would like to hear your opinion on since I wasn't allowed to question things when I was there.
> 
> 1)Why is Charles Taze Russel considered the man who started the witnesses when he is in fact the 2nd or 3rd person to try and the only one to make it stick?
> 2)Since no one knows when the end is near why have the witnesses announced the end only to have it be wrong and I personally knew several people who went in debt head head over heals in the 70s when the watchtower gave a date when it would end?
> 
> 3) Why are the witnesses not allowed to celebrate the birth of the child or the god they love but they can celebrate wedding anniversaries?
> 
> 4)Why can you not celebrate christmas but when someone gives you a gift you are allowed to take it the day after christmas,and everywhere I have worked they don't take part in any holiday celebration but they are the first in line for christmas bonuses and free hams or turkeys?
> 
> Lastly,why are you supposed to go door to door and try to recruit people to the hall but are not allowed to go to other churches for any reason or read any books from any other churches?I remember when my granny's dad died his funeral was held in a church and my granny not being able to go into the church,we had to stand outside when until he was brought out.
> 
> That's all the questions I have but I will give a few examples of the things I had to go through while there just to give an example or two.When we were kids we had to stand out in the hall during holiday or birthday parties while our friends were having fun in the class.I begged not to have to go to school on these days but we were expected to go and seem like almost a martyr.Also none of us were ever allowed to go on a date unless one parent from either person went along as a chapperone,and I evensaw this with people in the mid-20s.Last of all I remember my step dad beating my mom and cheating on her when I was 8 years old and even though her divorce was finalized we had to sneal around and get pictures of him leaving his girlfriends house before the elders would "allow" her to be divorced spiritually.Since I am considered an apostate you are not allowed to talk to me and discuss these things I would love to hear you answers to these questions,I am sure the congregations I attended were a little more strict than most this happened in most to some degree in all of them.Sorry for being so long winded.



Where you baptized and then disfellowshipped?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

DartonHunter101 said:


> Reasearch a little more, Job was an Oriental. When I say I worked all day that does not mean I worked from 12 midnight to 12 midnight. Day is used as a period of time. However it is worth noting that all the bible scholars have not translate this as birthday. The hebrew word for birthday is different then the word day, because there are different meanings here is Exodus 40 20-23  And it came to pass the third day, which was Pharaoh’s birthday, that he made a feast unto all his servants: and he lifted up the head of the chief butler and the head of the chief baker among his servants. 21 And he restored the chief butler unto his butlership again; and he gave the cup into Pharaoh’s hand: 22 but he hanged the chief baker: as Joseph had interpreted to them. 23 Yet did not the chief butler remember Joseph, but forgat him.



You either assume too much or are very gullible to the teachings you are receiving. If I hadn't researched it at a previous point in time, I wouldn't have posted it.

But here, just for you;

http://www.donmeh-west.com/Job.shtml

"God's covenant with Israel is fulfilled in the elevation of Job: 'See [Israel, my first-born son], I have made of you a witness to the peoples, a leader and a master of the nations.' (Isa. 55:4) That is, God restores Job's fortunes -- gives him 'double what he had before' -- precisely because he had prayed for his Gentile friends (Job 42:10, 11). That is, Job's life and suffering are, in the words of the Talmud we quoted earlier, 'a sign and a symbol' of the transformation of the Jewish People from the slaves of Egypt to the Redeemers of the world: 'Here is my servant [Israel], my chosen one in whom my soul delights. I have endowed him with my Spirit that he may bring true justice to the Gentiles.' (Isa. 42:1)

"The closing passages of Job are a paradigm of the Final Days, the End of Time, and the destiny of Israel, the Jewish People, as an agent of that apotheosis. Just as Job's three Edomite-gentile friends attach themselves to him for their salvation, so God swore to Israel: 'The gentile will join [you] and attach himself to the House of Jacob.' (Isa. 14:1, 2). To this end, God declares of his holy nation, the Jewish People: 'I will count you a kingdom of priests, a consecrated nation (Ex. 19:6). . . [Therefore] you must make yourselves holy as I am holy. (Lev. 20:7) Job himself declared it, 'I am showing you how God's power works.' (Job 27:11)


----------



## DartonHunter101

Miguel Cervantes said:


> You either assume too much or are very gullible to the teachings you are receiving. If I hadn't researched it at a previous point in time, I wouldn't have posted it.
> 
> But here, just for you;
> 
> http://www.donmeh-west.com/Job.shtml
> 
> "God's covenant with Israel is fulfilled in the elevation of Job: 'See [Israel, my first-born son], I have made of you a witness to the peoples, a leader and a master of the nations.' (Isa. 55:4) That is, God restores Job's fortunes -- gives him 'double what he had before' -- precisely because he had prayed for his Gentile friends (Job 42:10, 11). That is, Job's life and suffering are, in the words of the Talmud we quoted earlier, 'a sign and a symbol' of the transformation of the Jewish People from the slaves of Egypt to the Redeemers of the world: 'Here is my servant [Israel], my chosen one in whom my soul delights. I have endowed him with my Spirit that he may bring true justice to the Gentiles.' (Isa. 42:1)
> 
> "The closing passages of Job are a paradigm of the Final Days, the End of Time, and the destiny of Israel, the Jewish People, as an agent of that apotheosis. Just as Job's three Edomite-gentile friends attach themselves to him for their salvation, so God swore to Israel: 'The gentile will join [you] and attach himself to the House of Jacob.' (Isa. 14:1, 2). To this end, God declares of his holy nation, the Jewish People: 'I will count you a kingdom of priests, a consecrated nation (Ex. 19:6). . . [Therefore] you must make yourselves holy as I am holy. (Lev. 20:7) Job himself declared it, 'I am showing you how God's power works.' (Job 27:11)



so you don't believe he was an oriental? did you read Job 1 1-4?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

DartonHunter101 said:


> so you don't believe he was an oriental? did you read Job 1 1-4?



Did you read my post and link? 

Good grief..


----------



## DartonHunter101

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Did you read my post and link?
> 
> Good grief..



probably not as smart as you. what I read doesn't tell me if you don't believe the bible at  Job 1 1-4 where the bible says he was oriental, and you had  previously stated that he was a Jew; opposite to what I find in the bible.


----------



## JB0704

Miguel Cervantes said:


> You either assume too much or are very gullible to the teachings you are receiving. If I hadn't researched it at a previous point in time, I wouldn't have posted it.
> 
> But here, just for you;
> 
> http://www.donmeh-west.com/Job.shtml
> 
> "God's covenant with Israel is fulfilled in the elevation of Job: 'See [Israel, my first-born son], I have made of you a witness to the peoples, a leader and a master of the nations.' (Isa. 55:4) That is, God restores Job's fortunes -- gives him 'double what he had before' -- precisely because he had prayed for his Gentile friends (Job 42:10, 11). That is, Job's life and suffering are, in the words of the Talmud we quoted earlier, 'a sign and a symbol' of the transformation of the Jewish People from the slaves of Egypt to the Redeemers of the world: 'Here is my servant [Israel], my chosen one in whom my soul delights. I have endowed him with my Spirit that he may bring true justice to the Gentiles.' (Isa. 42:1)
> 
> "The closing passages of Job are a paradigm of the Final Days, the End of Time, and the destiny of Israel, the Jewish People, as an agent of that apotheosis. Just as Job's three Edomite-gentile friends attach themselves to him for their salvation, so God swore to Israel: 'The gentile will join [you] and attach himself to the House of Jacob.' (Isa. 14:1, 2). To this end, God declares of his holy nation, the Jewish People: 'I will count you a kingdom of priests, a consecrated nation (Ex. 19:6). . . [Therefore] you must make yourselves holy as I am holy. (Lev. 20:7) Job himself declared it, 'I am showing you how God's power works.' (Job 27:11)



.....so I'm not the only one who thinks the whole book is a metaphor?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

Once again, read the link. The argument is based in it. I am not in the novel writing mood when one already exist.


----------



## JB0704

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Once again, read the link. The argument is based in it. I am not in the novel writing mood when one already exist.



I read a good bit of it.  I wish I had that reference when I started this thread:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=641643


----------



## BrowningFan

DartonHunter101 said:


> I believe we are on different wave lenghts, so all I can do is wish you the best.





BrowningFan said:


> Yes this the standard JW's answer but Paul says in Galatians
> 
> 
> 1:7-8
> (KJV)
> 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
> 
> 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
> 
> This is not God's Kingdom
> 
> This is what Gospel Paul is Preaching
> 
> 1 Corinthians 15
> 
> 1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
> 
> 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
> 
> 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
> 
> 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
> 
> Paul was given this Gospel by revelation
> 
> 
> Romans 16:25
> 
> 25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
> 
> 
> 
> This is Paul's warning from God to anyone that doesn't preach they Good News of the Death Burial and Resurrection
> 
> Galatians 1:6-12
> King James Version (KJV)
> 6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
> 
> 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
> 
> 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
> 
> 9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
> 
> 10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
> 
> 11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
> 
> 12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
> 
> 
> 
> For the life of me I have spoken to 100's maybe 1000's of JW's and NOT ONE has even witnessed to me the DBR of Jesus Christ .... but most of the time they want to witness about the Gospel of the Kingdom. From what I read God says every JW is accursed for preaching a false Gospel (Kingdom) and not the Gospel of the DBR of Jesus Christ. Again the Gospel of the Kingdom is not Paul's Gospel.



Yep this is usually a stopping point for all JW's when presented with truth that is different doctrine than they are taught. I presented it to you in PLAIN ENGLISH and I know your not going door to door telling folks about the DBR of Jesus Christ. Instead you want to witness about God's Kingdom. Let God be true and every man a liar.


----------



## Mako22

JWS know nothing of Gods word but they sure love to argue about it.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

Well, I see this one is going to go down the usual path..


----------



## jigman29

DartonHunter101 said:


> Where you baptized and then disfellowshipped?



No I was never baptized,I didn't think before I posted the part about being an apostate.Also,one thing I failed to mention in my previous post is that I will say the witnesses are very strict with the kids in the congregation on how they behave in public.I do feel they are very good in this aspect of their lives and they are not bad people,I still have many friends and family members who are witnesses and I love them dearly.I just feel that the witnesses are very controlling over the lives of their members which is why a lot of people feel they are a cult.


----------



## Ronnie T

Woodsman69 said:


> JWS know nothing of Gods word but they sure love to argue about it.



That'll make them fit in very well with all us other believers.


----------



## hobbs27

jigman29 said:


> I just feel that the witnesses are very controlling over the lives of their members which is why a lot of people feel they are a cult.



I think the reason many people feel they are a cult has more to do with their beliefs than their actions.
 I have friends that are JW and they are good people (sure like their wine),but when they start with all their beliefs like they won't vote, or join the armed services, or they start trying to tell me that Jesus Christ is an angel, that alone disqualifies them from even being Christian in most Christians minds.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I think the Amish & Mennonites have similar views on voting & the military. Other than that they are pretty normal.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> That'll make them fit in very well with all us other believers.



Yeah, we never have differences on beliefs!


----------



## zedex

Well jump for joy !!! Tomorrow is the day the witnesses come by for their weekly revival/survival meeting with the wife. Aren't I so lucky. Hopefully, we won't get snow and I can go outside to something during their visit.


----------



## Mako22

zedex said:


> Well jump for joy !!! Tomorrow is the day the witnesses come by for their weekly revival/survival meeting with the wife. Aren't I so lucky. Hopefully, we won't get snow and I can go outside to something during their visit.



I wouldn't let them within a 100 miles of my wife. They start out by visiting, brain washing and then next thing you know the wife is one of them. Make no mistake about it they are a VERY dangerous cult that controls its members, destroys families and denies that Jesus Christ is Lord.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

Woodsman69 said:


> I wouldn't let them within a 100 miles of my wife. They start out by visiting, brain washing and then next thing you know the wife is one of them. Make no mistake about it they are a VERY dangerous cult that controls its members, destroys families and denies that Jesus Christ is Lord.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Woodsman69 said:


> I wouldn't let them within a 100 miles of my wife. They start out by visiting, brain washing and then next thing you know the wife is one of them. Make no mistake about it they are a VERY dangerous cult that controls its members, destroys families and denies that Jesus Christ is Lord.



I just hope his wife hasn't been pre-elected to be one!


----------



## Kapsha

Woodsman69 said:


> I wouldn't let them within a 100 miles of my wife. They start out by visiting, brain washing and then next thing you know the wife is one of them. Make no mistake about it they are a VERY dangerous cult that controls its members, destroys families and denies that Jesus Christ is Lord.



Interesting. When I think of a cult I think of Jonestown with Jim Jones, not the Kingdom Hall down the road where members may come and go as they please and are not required to give up all of their worldly possessions.

I also find it interesting that people assume because someone is different than they are, they are automatically wrong.


----------



## zedex

My wife was raised as Buddhist and she still holds firmly to that. She said she is not about to convert, but just wants to know the varied religions. 

As far as I am concerned, each religion has its questional practices and theories so I will stick to what I do; believ and practice faith of nondenominational affiliation.

We also have a friend from Vietnam who is 30 years old, raised under Buddhist beliefs who has been attending Catholic church.  The girl, despite her age is a virgin and utteringly naive'. She had never heard of the things going on under that religion and when I pointed out the lawsuits and such, she posed the comments to her preacher or whatever they are called there. He told her it was all hogwash and a gov't conspiracy to bring down the faith.

The girl, who is as adorable as a girl can be, has been taken under "special favor" by one of the top people at that church, an older married man. I have to question his motives.

 My wife had mentioned this to the JW guy that comes by here and he has been wanting us to have her here when he visits.

 I feel like I am trying to protect the girl from predators sometimes.

 By saying that, I am not saying these guys are looking at taking advantage of her {though one have not much doubt}, but I do have to ask why such interest in recruiting another member so much.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Is it? What if they also believe Jesus was nothing more than an immigrant farm worker?



huh? not what if they believe, but do they believe that? if that isn't what they believe, why bring it up?


----------



## mtnwoman

zedex said:


> My wife was raised as Buddhist and she still holds firmly to that. She said she is not about to convert, but just wants to know the varied religions.
> 
> As far as I am concerned, each religion has its questional practices and theories so I will stick to what I do; believ and practice faith of nondenominational affiliation.
> 
> We also have a friend from Vietnam who is 30 years old, raised under Buddhist beliefs who has been attending Catholic church.  The girl, despite her age is a virgin and utteringly naive'. She had never heard of the things going on under that religion and when I pointed out the lawsuits and such, she posed the comments to her preacher or whatever they are called there. He told her it was all hogwash and a gov't conspiracy to bring down the faith.
> 
> The girl, who is as adorable as a girl can be, has been taken under "special favor" by one of the top people at that church, an older married man. I have to question his motives.
> 
> My wife had mentioned this to the JW guy that comes by here and he has been wanting us to have her here when he visits.
> 
> I feel like I am trying to protect the girl from predators sometimes.
> 
> By saying that, I am not saying these guys are looking at taking advantage of her {though one have not much doubt}, but I do have to ask why such interest in recruiting another member so much.



I'm thankful that you have a watchful eye!


----------



## mtnwoman

zedex said:


> Well jump for joy !!! Tomorrow is the day the witnesses come by for their weekly revival/survival meeting with the wife. Aren't I so lucky. Hopefully, we won't get snow and I can go outside to something during their visit.



Witness back. They seem to be a little ahead of you, but tell them that they can witness, if you can. You are the head of the household and have every right to do that.


----------



## hobbs27

mtnwoman said:


> huh? not what if they believe, but do they believe that? if that isn't what they believe, why bring it up?



In Watchtower theology,Jesus Christ is a mere angel, the first one God created when he started creating angels.Witnesses identify Christ as Michael the archangel, although they call Jesus "the son of God" because "the first spirit person God made was like a firstborn son to him" (1982 watchtower booklet, enjoy life on earth forever!, pg.14) They also call him " a god," and translate John 1:1 accordingly in their bible.

I truly feel sorry for these people.


----------



## emusmacker

DartonHunter101 said:


> probably not as smart as you. what I read doesn't tell me if you don't believe the bible at  Job 1 1-4 where the bible says he was oriental, and you had  previously stated that he was a Jew; opposite to what I find in the bible.



I have an example of a recent visit to a witness.
I asked where they got their belief about blood transfusions and she politely showed me,( can't remember right off), but in that very same verse, it said to abstain from fornication.  So I noticed she had a 5 yr old son and she told us she'd only been married 3 yrs. 

My question is this, why is it such a HUGE sin to have a blood transfusion, yet not a big deal to commit fornication when both sins were referenced in the same verse.?  Sounds like the JW's get to pick and choose which verses they like the best.  

Please answer this question.


----------



## DartonHunter101

emusmacker said:


> I have an example of a recent visit to a witness.
> I asked where they got their belief about blood transfusions and she politely showed me,( can't remember right off), but in that very same verse, it said to abstain from fornication.  So I noticed she had a 5 yr old son and she told us she'd only been married 3 yrs.
> 
> My question is this, why is it such a HUGE sin to have a blood transfusion, yet not a big deal to commit fornication when both sins were referenced in the same verse.?  Sounds like the JW's get to pick and choose which verses they like the best.
> 
> Please answer this question.



People who commit fornication who are unrepentant are disfellowshiped. It is a big deal.  
What you didnt ask is how long she had been a JW


----------



## Artfuldodger

Why is homosexuality such a HUGE sin but fornication isn't any different than cheating on your income tax?


----------



## DartonHunter101

Artfuldodger said:


> Why is homosexuality such a HUGE sin but fornication isn't any different than cheating on your income tax?



What? they are all the same. What makes one worse than the other?


----------



## Artfuldodger

DartonHunter101 said:


> What? they are all the same. What makes one worse than the other?



The sins are equal but not the reactions from fellow church members.


----------



## DartonHunter101

Artfuldodger said:


> The sins are equal but not the reactions from fellow church members.



You will never get that out of any religon. Whever you have messed up people; you will have messed up thoughts


----------



## emusmacker

DartonHunter101 said:


> People who commit fornication who are unrepentant are disfellowshiped. It is a big deal.
> What you didnt ask is how long she had been a JW



she has been a JW since birth. And if she can repent from fornication and be ok, then why can't she repent from having a blood transfusion?


----------



## fish hawk

Yall want to hear something messed up?I mentioned earlier in this thread about my mom and step dad being J.W's....Well,My daughter is getting married in August.I raised my family up and we are members of a Baptist church.My Mom tells me she cant attend my daughters,her Granddaughters wedding if it's held in a church.Se said she thought it would be alright to attend a wedding in a church but after taking it to there Elders they said it wouldnt be alright for her to step foot in a church for a wedding or anything else......Really sad the mind control they have over there members.


----------



## Ronnie T

fish hawk said:


> Yall want to hear something messed up?I mentioned earlier in this thread about my mom and step dad being J.W's....Well,My daughter is getting married in August.I raised my family up and we are members of a Baptist church.My Mom tells me she cant attend my daughters,her Granddaughters wedding if it's held in a church.Se said she thought it would be alright to attend a wedding in a church but after taking it to there Elders they said it wouldnt be alright for her to step foot in a church for a wedding or anything else......Really sad the mind control they have over there members.




If your mother doesn't go to this wedding, it'll be her fault, not her elders!
No wonder some people despise the church!
Sometimes it's hard to defend.


----------



## DartonHunter101

Ronnie T said:


> If your mother doesn't go to this wedding, it'll be her fault, not her elders!
> No wonder some people despise the church!
> Sometimes it's hard to defend.



I think most of what you hear is not the total truth. It would be way out of line for them tell her that. That is her decision as you said.  I have been to a Funerals in chruchs.

 Yesterday there was a story in the paper about a snake handling in a chruch. Now if I wanted to go around and say that the chriuchs are teaching people to handle snakes it would be some truth, about 5%, mostly it would be a lie.
Mostly what you hear on this forum about JW's is 5% truth at best. It is gossip and slander peddled by people who say they are Christians.


----------



## hobbs27

DartonHunter101 said:


> .
> Mostly what you hear on this forum about JW's is 5% truth at best. It is gossip and slander peddled by people who say they are Christians.



Witnesses believe that God set up the Watchtower organization as his channel of communication to gather together those of mankind who will be saved.As the visible agency of the kingdom of God on earth, this organization excercises full govermental authority over believers- it promulgates laws,puts violators on trial,operates Kingdom schools, and so on, parallel to the secular government.If there is a conflict between the two, the organization is to be obeyed, rather than the secular rulers. In a witnesses mind, they are "obeying God rather than men." Acts 5:29.

percentage wise how true?

In Watchtower theology, Jesus Christ is a mere angel-the first one God created when he started creating angels.Witnesses identify Christ as Michaels the archangel, although they call Jesus "the son of God" because "the first spirit person God made was like a firstborn son to him"

They also call him "a god" and translate John 1:1 accordingly in their Bible.

percentage wise how true?


----------



## DartonHunter101

hobbs27 said:


> Witnesses believe that God set up the Watchtower organization as his channel of communication to gather together those of mankind who will be saved.As the visible agency of the kingdom of God on earth, this organization excercises full govermental authority over believers- it promulgates laws,puts violators on trial,operates Kingdom schools, and so on, parallel to the secular government.If there is a conflict between the two, the organization is to be obeyed, rather than the secular rulers. In a witnesses mind, they are "obeying God rather than men." Acts 5:29.
> 
> percentage wise how true?
> 
> 
> 
> In Watchtower theology, Jesus Christ is a mere angel-the first one God created when he started creating angels.Witnesses identify Christ as Michaels the archangel, although they call Jesus "the son of God" because "the first spirit person God made was like a firstborn son to him"
> 
> They also call him "a god" and translate John 1:1 accordingly in their Bible.
> 
> percentage wise how true?



you are a perfect example. You have stated so many things that are not true about JW's on here, and I have tried reasoning with you which has been a big waste of time.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

DartonHunter101 said:


> you are a perfect example. You have stated so many things that are not true about JW's on here, and I have tried reasoning with you which has been a big waste of time.



I thought it was a fair question. You stated that only 5% of what was said is true, yet you refuse to tell what parts of his statement are false. Is 1/2 of what he said true, 2/3 true or 10% true.

Your chance to straighten out the record.


----------



## Sirduke

I try to be polite to JW when they show up at the door, but am as firm with them as I am to the Mormon kids. 
I respect your right to have your beliefs, respect mine, and go away. I don't want you coming to my house and trying to convert me, if I am not finding what I need at my chosen church, I will go elsewhere.
I honestly feel that JWs, Mormans and Masons are all cults, but that is their right to be so, just leave me and my family out of it.


----------



## Ronnie T

DartonHunter101 said:


> I think most of what you hear is not the total truth. It would be way out of line for them tell her that. That is her decision as you said.  I have been to a Funerals in chruchs.
> 
> Yesterday there was a story in the paper about a snake handling in a chruch. Now if I wanted to go around and say that the chriuchs are teaching people to handle snakes it would be some truth, about 5%, mostly it would be a lie.
> Mostly what you hear on this forum about JW's is 5% truth at best. It is gossip and slander peddled by people who say they are Christians.



I wouldn't be surprised at all.


----------



## emusmacker

DartonHunter101 said:


> I think most of what you hear is not the total truth. It would be way out of line for them tell her that. That is her decision as you said.  I have been to a Funerals in chruchs.
> 
> Yesterday there was a story in the paper about a snake handling in a chruch. Now if I wanted to go around and say that the chriuchs are teaching people to handle snakes it would be some truth, about 5%, mostly it would be a lie.
> Mostly what you hear on this forum about JW's is 5% truth at best. It is gossip and slander peddled by people who say they are Christians.



You failed to answer my question. If she could repent from fornication and everything be cool, then why couldn't she repent from having a blood transfusion?


----------



## fish hawk

DartonHunter101 said:


> I think most of what you hear is not the total truth. It would be way out of line for them tell her that. That is her decision as you said.  I have been to a Funerals in chruchs.



So what are you saying?Im lying?She told me she researched it herself and didnt think there would be a problem,but they wanted to bring it before the Elders to make sure, they told her it was a place of worship and she shouldn't go into another place of worship.....My mom has been a JW for 20 years,theres not much that i dont know about them.All there friends and my step dad's family are JW's and Ive spent years around them.I love them to death but I dont worship with them,but before I became a Christian and started attending the Church i do now I  went to the meetings and Bible studies with my Mom........What Kingdom Hall do you attend????You can send it to me in a P.M.


----------



## fish hawk

Ronnie T said:


> If your mother doesn't go to this wedding, it'll be her fault, not her elders!
> No wonder some people despise the church!
> Sometimes it's hard to defend.



Dude if you would like, P.M. me your phone number and I'll have her call you and yall can talk about it or better yet She could have some of Her Brother's and Sisters come by your house next Saturday and talk it over with you????They dont call there place of worship a Church...They call it a Kingdom Hall.You will never hear a JW say they attend Church, they read out of there New World Translations not the Bible,They dont call God God but call him Jehovah which means God but for some odd reason they dont say God.Also you will never celebrate a Holiday,even the 4 Th of July.


----------



## hobbs27

fish hawk said:


> ......Really sad the mind control they have over there members.



Will be praying for your mother that she gets through this issue. I had a JW attend my wedding and it was at a very spiritual little country church.The lady that attended my wedding may have not asked her elders at the time she was disfellowshipped by the Kingdom Hall.
 It is really sad, but I don't feel nearly as bad for the adults that choose to live by the rules of this cult, but for the children that are raised in it, never celebrating a birthday and never enjoying Christmas. The worse of all hypocrisy would be those that were raised in a Christian home and later on swapped over to the JW's and refuse their own children the happiness they had growing up.
 Maybe your mother or her elders will change their minds before this wedding takes place.


----------



## Ridge Walker

I've seen the JW's referred to as a cult more than once in this thread. I'm curious as to what is it about them that makes you think that.

RW


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Cult:  A religious group: a group of people who share religious or spiritual beliefs, especially beliefs regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false

There is your answer.  A lot of people believe that the JW's are at a minium misguided, and at the extreme teaching a false religion.


----------



## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> Cult:  A religious group: a group of people who share religious or spiritual beliefs, especially beliefs regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false
> 
> There is your answer.  A lot of people believe that the JW's are at a minium misguided, and at the extreme teaching a false religion.



That about sums it up.
 I don't use the word lightly.I would also add that a cult will use mind control to keep its members once they've sold them into the organization.


----------



## Ridge Walker

NE GA Pappy said:


> Cult:  A religious group: a group of people who share religious or spiritual beliefs, especially beliefs regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false
> 
> There is your answer.  A lot of people believe that the JW's are at a minium misguided, and at the extreme teaching a false religion.



By that definition, anyone that practices a religion other than your own would be in a cult then, no?

RW


----------



## hobbs27

Ridge Walker said:


> By that definition, anyone that practices a religion other than your own would be in a cult then, no?
> 
> RW



Thats a good point, I never considered Budhist anything but Budhist, or Muslims, Muslims. JW's I would say are cultist for many reasons but more so because they claim to be Christian yet they distort what Christ is so much that there is no way their beliefs could be Christian.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Every belief call others cults. It is circular reasoning. Quite comical


----------



## centerpin fan

I think a big reason modern Christians refer to JW's as a cult is due to the influence of Walter Martin's book _Kingdom of the Cults_.  It's pretty much the standard work on the subject and can be found in virtually any Christian bookstore.  In chapter one of that work, Martin quotes Dr. Charles Braden's on the meaning of a cult:

_"By the term cult I mean nothing derogatory to any group so classified. A cult, as I define it, is any religious group which differs significantly in one or more respects as to belief or practice from those religious groups which are regarded as the normative expressions of religion in our total culture."_

I think that's just a verbose way of saying cults are "unorthodox" in their beliefs.  Using that definition, JW's definitely qualify.  I think there's a big difference, though, between the JW's and groups like Jim Jones' People's Temple.  Although I disagree with the JW's theology, it wouldn't bother me if there was a kingdom hall next door to me.  I wouldn't feel the same if Jim Jones was my next door neighbor.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

centerpin fan said:


> I think a big reason modern Christians refer to JW's as a cult is due to the influence of Walter Martin's book _Kingdom of the Cults_.  It's pretty much the standard work on the subject and can be found in virtually any Christian bookstore.  In chapter one of that work, Martin quotes Dr. Charles Braden's on the meaning of a cult:
> 
> _"By the term cult I mean nothing derogatory to any group so classified. A cult, as I define it, is any religious group which differs significantly in one or more respects as to belief or practice from those religious groups which are regarded as the normative expressions of religion in our total culture."_
> 
> I think that's just a verbose way of saying cults are "unorthodox" in their beliefs.  Using that definition, JW's definitely qualify.  I think there's a big difference, though, between the JW's and groups like Jim Jones' People's Temple.  Although I disagree with the JW's theology, it wouldn't bother me if there was a kingdom hall next door to me.  I wouldn't feel the same if Jim Jones was my next door neighbor.



How would you feel if you had a big mosque next door to you?

I have read back over this post and noticed that the question of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ was never answered.  Wonder why?


----------



## centerpin fan

NE GA Pappy said:


> How would you feel if you had a big mosque next door to you?



Wouldn't bother me.


----------



## centerpin fan

NE GA Pappy said:


> I have read back over this post and noticed that the question of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ was never answered.  Wonder why?



Maybe the JW's think its pointless to try.  There aren't too many minds that get changed in the spiritual forums.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

yeah, not gonna change my mind, but it does make me examine why I believe what I believe.

Hopefully it will for them also.


----------



## emusmacker

Why wasn't my question answered about being repentant of a blood transfusion and everything being cool just like being repentant from fornication.  


still wiating on that one.


----------



## DartonHunter101

emusmacker said:


> You failed to answer my question. If she could repent from fornication and everything be cool, then why couldn't she repent from having a blood transfusion?



you can


----------



## DartonHunter101

fish hawk said:


> So what are you saying?Im lying?She told me she researched it herself and didnt think there would be a problem,but they wanted to bring it before the Elders to make sure, they told her it was a place of worship and she shouldn't go into another place of worship.....My mom has been a JW for 20 years,theres not much that i dont know about them.All there friends and my step dad's family are JW's and Ive spent years around them.I love them to death but I dont worship with them,but before I became a Christian and started attending the Church i do now I  went to the meetings and Bible studies with my Mom........What Kingdom Hall do you attend????You can send it to me in a P.M.



lying would be a strong word, but I do think you are resentful and have alot of hard feelings and therefore try to slant the truth to make JW's look bad.


----------



## DartonHunter101

Ridge Walker said:


> I've seen the JW's referred to as a cult more than once in this thread. I'm curious as to what is it about them that makes you think that.
> 
> RW



All christians have been accused of that from the begining of time. Look at Jesus. The religous leaders (priests) of his day accused him of all kinds of things and then incited the crowd to have him killed.
In Acts @8:22 the christians  where said to be a sect and spoken of against everywhere.
 "But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against. "

This isnt being spoken against by non believers it is by people who cliam to believe in God.

We dont partake in any beliefs that have pagan teachings and that brings a lot of hate down on us, because the majority of religions are full of pagan teachings and customs.


----------



## DartonHunter101

centerpin fan said:


> Maybe the JW's think its pointless to try.  There aren't too many minds that get changed in the spiritual forums.



When people are trying to insult you with twisting the truth it is pointless to continue.  When Jesus was arrested he didnt have much to say? Would they have listened?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

When the prostestants, that does not look like I spelled that right, left, they were called a cult. Big guy calling the little guy a cult. Now that they are bigger, they are handing out the same condemnation.


----------



## emusmacker

DartonHunter101 said:


> you can



When did that change?  Because it sure seems like a big deal for a JW to participate in a blood transfusion but not as big a deal as fornication. I'm going by the ones I've talked to, both older and younger. 

The one thing they will tell you quickly is, that they don't believe in blood transfusions. Seems that's a bigger deal to them.  Isn't sin still sin?  Why is more emphasis put on blood transfusions than fornication?  Also why can't a JW have a blood transfusion, is there any Biblical against it?


----------



## fish hawk

DartonHunter101 said:


> lying would be a strong word, but I do think you are resentful and have alot of hard feelings and therefore try to slant the truth to make JW's look bad.



Sorry dude,i dont have to make the JW's look bad they do a good job of that themselves.....All the info I have passed along has been the info thats been passed on to me!!!


----------



## fish hawk

DartonHunter101 said:


> We dont partake in any beliefs that have pagan teachings and that brings a lot of hate down on us, because the majority of religions are full of pagan teachings and customs.



What does celebrating or not celebrating the 4th of July have to do with religion?Or is it because JW's hate the government?Why is it yall can celebrate wedding anniversaries but not birthdays?


----------



## fish hawk

emusmacker said:


> When did that change?  Because it sure seems like a big deal for a JW to participate in a blood transfusion but not as big a deal as fornication. I'm going by the ones I've talked to, both older and younger.
> 
> The one thing they will tell you quickly is, that they don't believe in blood transfusions. Seems that's a bigger deal to them.  Isn't sin still sin?  Why is more emphasis put on blood transfusions than fornication?  Also why can't a JW have a blood transfusion, is there any Biblical against it?



Adultery is the only reason a Witness can divorce another!!!and then it's up to a bunch of elders,circuit overseer whether your dis-fellowshiped or not.What ever happened to repenting to God?and not a bunch of dudes?


----------



## fish hawk

I think JW's are more hung up on trying to please man instead of God........It's funny how they go out witnessing ,but have a certain area they have to cover and keep up with the time they put in doing it.What ever happened to just sharing Jesus with someone and not having to keep a record of it?Whats sad is when your forced into going door to door and if you dont your a bad JW.What a burden that would be!!!!


----------



## fish hawk

DartonHunter101 said:


> lying would be a strong word, but I do think you are resentful and have alot of hard feelings and therefore try to slant the truth to make JW's look bad.



Honestly, i dont think the Elders would approve of you being on a internet chat forum discussing religion.


----------



## fish hawk

My mom's kingdom hall has two sections.My cousin is also a JW,but they go to different sections during the same time.Why do they have the Kingdom Hall sectioned off like that?Why dont they just bust down the wall and all worship together?Also why do they control where and at what time you worship?Seems like every few months My mom is changing up,one month its Sunday afternoon worship the the next month it's in the mornings.My cousin lived in a different part of town one time,but she could not worship at the kingdom Hall my Mom worshiped at,they told her where she would be attending.Why cant JW's be free to worship at the kingdom Hall of there choice?and at what time they would like to worship?


----------



## fish hawk

Why is it that JW's will not stand for the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag?


----------



## Artfuldodger

DartonHunter101 said:


> When people are trying to insult you with twisting the truth it is pointless to continue.  When Jesus was arrested he didnt have much to say? Would they have listened?



I've figured JW's see it as pointless to argue but I appreciate your input. Maybe explaining some issues like Christian Holidays being based on Pagan Holidays will help others know why ya'll don't participate.

Could you explain ya'lls beliefs on blood as in eating blood. How can you eat meat without eating cooked blood? Isn't the blood beliefs based on the Old Testament covenants and do you follow other Old Testament laws?


----------



## Artfuldodger

fish hawk said:


> Sorry dude,i dont have to make the JW's look bad they do a good job of that themselves.....All the info I have passed along has been the info thats been passed on to me!!!



I would say most people know very little about their beliefs including me. The major problem most people have with JW's is their witnessing, kinda like tele-marketing interrupting our busy daily routines. They might interpret "The Great Commission" to mean everyone instead of just the disciples.


----------



## DartonHunter101

Artfuldodger said:


> I've figured JW's see it as pointless to argue but I appreciate your input. Maybe explaining some issues like Christian Holidays being based on Pagan Holidays will help others know why ya'll don't participate.
> 
> Could you explain ya'lls beliefs on blood as in eating blood. How can you eat meat without eating cooked blood? Isn't the blood beliefs based on the Old Testament covenants and do you follow other Old Testament laws?



I have in the past discussed holidays on here. I discussed birthdays in this thread. However when discussing anything it should be able to stay respectful, and that is not the case on here because of some. If you are talking to someone and they hurle one lie and insult after another would you continue? Look at Jesus words
Matt
7:6“Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw YOUR pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip YOU open.

Definitly not saying it is you, because that is not true. You and most of the others always act like Christians.
I would love to start a thread about JW"s just to discuss our beliefs or answer questions, so there would not be so much false info out there like the blood issue,etc.. However if I did 90% of it would be bombared by lies and insults that no one could filter through.

Four issues from the law was kept for Christians, and blood was one, look

Acts 15:29- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!”


----------



## hobbs27

fish hawk said:


> My mom's kingdom hall has two sections.My cousin is also a JW,but they go to different sections during the same time.Why do they have the Kingdom Hall sectioned off like that?Why dont they just bust down the wall and all worship together?Also why do they control where and at what time you worship?Seems like every few months My mom is changing up,one month its Sunday afternoon worship the the next month it's in the mornings.My cousin lived in a different part of town one time,but she could not worship at the kingdom Hall my Mom worshiped at,they told her where she would be attending.Why cant JW's be free to worship at the kingdom Hall of there choice?and at what time they would like to worship?



Is worship open to the public?


----------



## Ronnie T

DartonHunter101 said:


> I have in the past discussed holidays on here. I discussed birthdays in this thread. However when discussing anything it should be able to stay respectful, and that is not the case on here because of some. If you are talking to someone and they hurle one lie and insult after another would you continue? Look at Jesus words
> Matt
> 7:6“Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw YOUR pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip YOU open.
> 
> Definitly not saying it is you, because that is not true. You and most of the others always act like Christians.
> I would love to start a thread about JW"s just to discuss our beliefs or answer questions, so there would not be so much false info out there like the blood issue,etc.. However if I did 90% of it would be bombared by lies and insults that no one could filter through.
> 
> Four issues from the law was kept for Christians, and blood was one, look
> 
> Acts 15:29- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!”



Anytime religion is discussed there will always be those who will become very aggressive and personal in their comments.  So please take it for what it is.

Romans 14:5  One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

I celebrate birthdays of others, but if someone doesn't because of their devotion to God, good for them.
Each person needs to decide........ for themselves.


----------



## DartonHunter101

Ronnie T said:


> I celebrate birthdays of others, but if someone doesn't because of their devotion to God, good for them.
> Each person needs to decide........ for themselves.



I agree, and when people do decide I respect it.


----------



## fish hawk

Artfuldodger said:


> I would say most people know very little about their beliefs including me. The major problem most people have with JW's is their witnessing, kinda like tele-marketing interrupting our busy daily routines. They might interpret "The Great Commission" to mean everyone instead of just the disciples.



My mom has been a Witness for about 25 years.....She has tried to pound there beliefs into my head for years.....Out of respect for her I even went to the Kingdom Hall on a couple of occasions and Bible studies.....I was never raised in a religous household,I can remember going to church twice while growing up.My wife and I were on a quest to find what was right for us and visited several churches and differant demonations,even the Kingdom Hall,but when I stepped foot in our church home we both knew it was the place for us,the holy spirit moved in both of us,the pastor came for a visit one night and i was saved right then and there....Im the black sheep of the family because I'm Baptist,they dont respect my beliefs at all and dont believe I'm saved because im not in there only true religion.They believe whole heartdly that theres is the one true religon and eveyone else is not saved!!!


----------



## fish hawk

hobbs27 said:


> Is worship open to the public?



Sure.


----------



## fish hawk

DartonHunter101 said:


> I have in the past discussed holidays on here. I discussed birthdays in this thread. However when discussing anything it should be able to stay respectful, and that is not the case on here because of some. If you are talking to someone and they hurle one lie and insult after another would you continue? Look at Jesus words
> Matt
> 7:6“Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw YOUR pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip YOU open.
> 
> Definitly not saying it is you, because that is not true. You and most of the others always act like Christians.
> I would love to start a thread about JW"s just to discuss our beliefs or answer questions, so there would not be so much false info out there like the blood issue,etc.. However if I did 90% of it would be bombared by lies and insults that no one could filter through.
> 
> Four issues from the law was kept for Christians, and blood was one, look
> 
> Acts 15:29- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!”



My Mom and step father keep a card in there purse and wallet that says no blood


----------



## 1gr8bldr

fish hawk said:


> My Mom and step father keep a card in there purse and wallet that says no blood


Hello Fish hawk, first off, let me make myself clear. I respect your beliefs. I do take interest in what others believe and why. So could you or someone explain where the no transfusion idea comes from? Thanks


----------



## fish hawk

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Fish hawk, first off, let me make myself clear. I respect your beliefs. I do take interest in what others believe and why. So could you or someone explain where the no transfusion idea comes from? Thanks



Lets make sure were on the same page...I'm not a Jehovah Witness,my Mom is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses_and_blood_transfusions


----------



## fish hawk

Dartonhunter whats Jehovah Witnesses view on Jesus?Dont yall believe that he was just an angel?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

fish hawk said:


> Lets make sure were on the same page...I'm not a Jehovah Witness,my Mom is.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses_and_blood_transfusions


Oh, I should read the post, then I would have known this. Thanks for the link. I have always wondered about this.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

fish hawk said:


> Lets make sure were on the same page...I'm not a Jehovah Witness,my Mom is.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses_and_blood_transfusions


I found this to be as expected. Not much foundation taken from the bible. More in line with keeping a tradition, it would seem. To each his own


----------



## obligated

I left the cult after the corporate office wouldn't expel a child serial molester.They are being sued for their mistakes of covering up instead of cleaning out the bad.I have relatives that wont talk to me but associate with the dirtbag molester!I don't associate with criminals so that ends that.There are good people there but its a Real Estate scam at best.Silent Lambs.org has news clips,court records and other FACTS on their covering up of pedophiles and tormenting the victims.One of my friends son was raped by an Elder and they threatened the victim.A friend of our family was molested by the same dirtbag and shot himself in the head.Elders wouldt do his service because he shot himself!Such a loving group of people!Shouldnt have clicked on this thread!


----------



## hobbs27

obligated said:


> I left the cult after the corporate office wouldn't expel a child serial molester.They are being sued for their mistakes of covering up instead of cleaning out the bad.I have relatives that wont talk to me but associate with the dirtbag molester!I don't associate with criminals so that ends that.There are good people there but its a Real Estate scam at best.Silent Lambs.org has news clips,court records and other FACTS on their covering up of pedophiles and tormenting the victims.One of my friends son was raped by an Elder and they threatened the victim.A friend of our family was molested by the same dirtbag and shot himself in the head.Elders wouldt do his service because he shot himself!Such a loving group of people!Shouldnt have clicked on this thread!


 
 I have found a place online to debate them on their beliefs. They are very poor losers in debate and many times will erase entire threads when they are beaten. I find their eschatology is the easiest to defeat them on using scripture alone...they believe Christ came back in 1914 and are used to debating futurist about why... I m preterist and believe Christ came back in the first century just like He said He would, that makes their head spin when I show them the time statements requiring His return in the first century, much like the one on my signature.


----------



## obligated

The changed their view on the 1914 date like they did on their other dates.My biggest issue was criminal activity of members that was covered and crazy rules that changed every few years in their magazines.
If a prophet fails several times is that not a false prophet?If they were gods mouthpiece would they not be right the first time?There is a lot of lies about the Watchtower on the internet but there are enough solid news reports,court records and enough copies of past literature to make the case as  real estate scam/cult/pedophile heaven.Then there is biblical issues.As they say"the light is getting brighter"!I add and the roaches are running!


----------



## hobbs27

They are not a happy people.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Other than some mis-guided ideas of who Jesus is or when he will return, both of which we debate among ourselves, they do many things which we commend. 
They just take it to an extreme which we even as fundamental Christians see as overboard. Things such as works, witnessing, and keeping your fellow Church members in line.

Just as other Christians on here feel, they believe they must always do more to warrant salvation. They don't believe Jesus' blood did what God said it could do. Therefore they are never free. They always feel guilty that their works aren't enough.They are still yoked with the burden of sin. We see this among ourselves on this forum.

They are criticized for spending too much time doing God's work and not enough time with their own families.
I'd say we can learn from them by seeing ourselves in some of their beliefs. Should we spend more time doing God's work? Should we be more focused on a works based salvation? Should we police our own Church crowd more? Should we shun our own Church crowd more?

In seeing how they believe shouldn't we be more focused on the spiritual side of Christianity, realize the power of the Blood of Jesus, and let everyone into our Church such as homosexuals and let God separate the Tares from the Wheat? 

The lesson I gain the most from Churches who say we must go through their mediators to get to God is I already have one.
The lesson I gain the most from Churches that say I must follow their doctrine is I already have one. That I must be in their organization, well I'm already in one.

Galatians 2:21 
I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die.


----------



## Will Galen

I’m fairly new on here, and I’ve just been reading and not been a participant until today. DartonHunter has been doing a great job in answering questions, but I thought I would chime in as I’m a long time Jehovah’s Witness.

After reading all these stories about what people believe about Jehovah’s Witnesses, I must say a lot of what is said about our beliefs isn’t accurate. Both the hearer and teller are responsible for that. As an example, if I came to your door and you asked me, “Yes or no, do you believe Christ Jesus died on the cross for your sins?” 

I can’t really answer that question yes or no since I don’t believe Jesus died on a cross. My answer would be “Yes I believe Christ Jesus died for me, but not on a cross.”

(Years ago Jehovah’s Witnesses believed Jesus died on a cross, but after a lot of research we now believe it was just a wooded stake with no cross piece.) 

However, there would be some Witnesses that would just answer the question no, expecting to be given a chance to explain, but the person at the door might ask another question, and another question, and no explanation would ever be given. Then that person would forever swear that Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe in Jesus, or that we don’t believe Jesus died for us. That wouldn’t be true, but that person knows what the Witness told them and they would be adamant that’s what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe. 

The point I’m trying to make, is to understand someone you need to be talking about the same thing, and often people think they are talking about the same thing, but their not. Thus misunderstandings arise.


----------



## Will Galen

I see some on here really want to know what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe. Since I’m a Jehovah’s Witness, retired, and in bad health, I have the time. I’ll tell you what we believe. 

I’m not here to argue, and some people clearly have that agenda, so don’t expect me to reply. 

Blood Transfusions 
In the early Christian congregation the prohibition on blood came about because another issue had been raised. The issue of whether Christians had to get circumcised like those under the Mosaic Law.

Acts 15:5, 6 says, But some of those of the sect of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up from their seats and said: “It is necessary to circumcise them and command them to observe the Law of Moses.” 6 So the apostles and the elders gathered together to look into this matter. 

What they decided is found in verses 28 and 29.

Acts 15:28, 29, For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from fornication [sexual immorality of all types]. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

Note in verse 29 where it says to keep abstaining from . . . blood.

Now note one of the Mosaic Law’s was that the Jews couldn’t eat blood.

Leviticus 17:11,12 says, “The soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I myself (God) have put it upon the altar for you to make atonement for your souls, because it is the blood that makes atonement by the soul in it. That is why I have said to the sons of Israel: ‘No soul of you must eat blood and no alien resident who is residing as an alien in your midst should eat blood.’”

Now I want to point out that Christians are not under the Mosaic law, that was done away with by Jesus, however we read in Acts that the Holy Spirit, Jesus’ apostles, and the elders agreed that abstaining from blood was one of the necessary things Christians were instructed to do. So in reality the prohibition against eating blood in the old testament was continued in the New Testament.

Think for a moment, that prohibition against eating blood just doesn’t mean eating food nowadays. If you go to the doctor and he asks you questions and examines you then says, “You are becoming an alcoholic, I want you to abstain from all alcoholic drinks.” 

Does that mean you can be hooked up to I.V. and be provided alcohol intravenously?

No! Everyone know what it means if someone is abstaining from sex. It means no sex at all. Likewise it means Christians are to take no blood into their bodies. And that’s also how the early Christians understood it.

An early Christian writer Tertullian said,  “We do not have the blood of animals at our meals" 

As for having a blood transfusion to save your life, one, you don’t know a blood transfusion will save your life, transfusions have killed people. 

Two, where in the Bible does it say you can break God’s laws to save your life?The scriptures show over and over that people that break God’s laws die. Remember when King David was transporting the Ark of the covenant on a wagon instead of having it carried?

 It was clearly stated that the only authorized bearers, the Kohathite Levite priests, should carry the Ark on their shoulders. Ignoring these instructions brought calamity. When the cattle pulling the wagon nearly caused it to tip over, Uzzah, who was likely a Levite but certainly not a priest, reached out to steady the Ark and was struck down by Jehovah for his irreverence.

Though David was well-meaning, his attempt to move the Ark in a wagon was in violation of God’s command and resulted in failure and the death of Uzzah. Uzzah’s grabbing hold of the Ark also shows that good intentions do not change what God requires. (See Exodus 25:13, 14; Numbers 4:15, 19; 7:7-9; 2 Samuel 6:6,7)

Three, back in Acts the 5th chapter it’s related how the apostles were brought before the Sanhedrin. The high priest said;

Acts 5:27-28 “We strictly ordered you not to keep teaching on the basis of this name, and yet look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.” 29In answer Peter and the other apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.”

Note that the apostles were risking their lives by disobeying the Sanhedrin, yet they went ahead and obeyed God. What does that have to do with blood transfusions? Just that Jehovah’s Witnesses believe you should obey God, no matter what. The Bible says to abstain from blood so we don’t have blood transfusions even if it means our death.  

What many don’t know is all types of surgery can be performed successfully without blood transfusions. This includes open-heart operations, brain surgery, amputation of limbs, and total removal of cancerous organs.

Good day!


----------



## Will Galen

What do Jehovah's Witnesses believe about God's Kingdom?

God's Kingdom
Jesus instructed us to pray for God’s ‘Kingdom to come’ because it’s the way that Jehovah plans to fulfill all his promises regarding mankind and the earth. Thus this Kingdom that Jesus instructs us to pray for is a real government, with Jesus himself ruling as King.

Chapter two of the Bible book of Daniel shows that this Kingdom will be set up in the last days and destroy the existing kingdoms. 

Daniel 2:44 says, 44 “In the days of those kings [The ruling powers in the last days] the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever.”

Jesus’ enthronement in heaven was described in a vision given to the prophet Daniel, who wrote: “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man [Jesus] happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days [Jehovah] he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.” (Daniel 7:13,14)

When the above happens it will be a fulfillment of a prophecy given to Jesus’ mother Mary by the angel Gabriel. This is found at Luke 1:31-33, where it says, “And look! you will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you are to name him Jesus. 32This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, 33and he will rule as King over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end to his Kingdom.”

Some denominations however teach their congregations that the Kingdom of God is within your heart. They point to Luke 17:21, which in some Bible Translations say, “the Kingdom of God is within you?”

For example the New International Version Bible, starting with verse 20 says, “Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within* you." 

The above Bible has a footnote that points out that scripture can also read, “. . . the kingdom of God is, *‘among you.’” A point that we will see is significant.

Many Bible translations read like the New International Version, that the Kingdom of God is ‘within you,’ while many other translations translate Luke 17:21 a bit differently. Some examples,

The New Jerusalem Bible, (njb) “The kingdom of God is among you.”

The Common English Bible, (ceb) “God's kingdom is already among you."

The Darby Translation, (dby) “The Kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

The Message Bible, (msg) “God's kingdom is already among you."

New American Standard Bible, (nas) “For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

As you can see the original Greek language can be translated different ways, all rendered so the reader can get the correct thought. However, those translations rendering that verse as, ‘The Kingdom of God is within you,’ make the verse hard to understand in as much as some denominations came up with the idea that the Kingdom of God is something inside of a person. The best renderings should show that God’s designated King of the Kingdom, ‘Jesus’ was among them, or in their midst, not confuse people.

Let’s look at several points that help us to understand that the Kingdom of God is not within a person.

(1) Simply reading the above verse in context one can see that the pronoun ‘you’ at the end of the verse is plural and refers to the Pharisees, and not singular and to the hearts of individual Christians as some denominations teach. 

Again, the words in that verse, ‘Having been asked by the Pharisees,’ and ‘Jesus replied,’ show Jesus was answering the Pharisees, and make the ‘you’ at the end of that verse plural and not singular.

The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible states regarding this verse: “ . . . understood in the unfortunate modern sense of 'you' as singular; the 'you' is plural (Jesus is addressing the Pharisees.) The theory that the kingdom of God is an inner state of mind, or of personal salvation, runs counter to the context of this verse, and also to the whole New Testament presentation of the idea." 

(2) Jesus wouldn’t have used the Pharisees to show us where the Kingdom of God is. Why not? Because Jesus said at Matthew 23:13 that the Pharisees would be excluded from the Kingdom because their form of worship was hypocritical and thus unacceptable to God. 

(Matthew 23:13) “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.”

Did you note that this scripture reads as if the Kingdom is something men can enter, not something within them.

(3) Notice what the Bible book of Mark says about the Kingdom of God. 
Mark 4:1,2-10-12 says, “Again he [Jesus] began teaching beside the sea, and a very large crowd gathered near him. . . . 2And he began to teach them many things with illustrations . . . . . . 10Now when he was alone, (with his disciples) those around him with the Twelve began questioning him about the illustrations. 11He said to them: “To you the sacred secret of the Kingdom of God has been given, but to those outside all things are in illustrations, 12so that, though looking, they may look and still not see, and though hearing, they may hear and still not get the sense of it; nor will they ever turn back and receive forgiveness.”

We see that Jesus revealed Bible truths to his disciples, the ones that believed he was the foretold Messiah, and followed his directions, but to those that wouldn’t turn back from their wrongful course, which would include his opposer’s the Pharisees, he spoke with illustrations. Thus he would not have revealed the secret of the Kingdom of God to them.

How was God’s Kingdom among those people at that time, including the Pharisees? Well, Jesus was the one whom Jehovah appointed to be the King of the Kingdom. As the King-Designate, Jesus was right in the midst of those people. He taught about the Kingdom of God and performed miracles, even raising up dead people, giving them a preview of what that Kingdom would accomplish. In a very real sense, then, the Kingdom was in their midst or among them.

(4) Since Jesus taught Bible truths to his disciples, their view of the Kingdom should be significant. On one occasion during the final days of Jesus’ ministry, the mother of Jesus’ disciples James and John came to Jesus and said: “Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” (Matthew 20:21) 

Clearly, she was not speaking about something in the heart of her sons. She understood that the Kingdom involved rulership with Jesus, and she wanted her sons to have a share in it. In fact, Jesus did promise his 11 faithful apostles that they would be in his Kingdom and “sit on thrones and “judge” with him. (Luke 22:30) To his followers, then, Jesus’ Kingdom was to be a real government, not something in your heart.

(5) What about the people in general in Jesus’ day? Did they understand the Kingdom to be in your heart, or did they expect a real government? At Jesus’ execution, a criminal impaled alongside him pleaded: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your kingdom.” Jesus assured the dying man that he would be with him in Paradise. (Luke 23:42,43)

Clearly, there is no scriptural support for the notion that the Kingdom of God is anything other than what it is, an actual government, one that will bring dramatic changes to the earth, just as foretold. 
(See Isaiah 9:6,7)


----------



## Will Galen

fish hawk said:


> My mom's kingdom hall has two sections.My cousin is also a JW,but they go to different sections during the same time.Why do they have the Kingdom Hall sectioned off like that? Why dont they just bust down the wall and all worship together?



Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t have a paid clergy class like most denominations. Our worship is set up like the early Christian Congregation. All are considered brothers, but some are termed elders while others are termed ministerial servants. The Elders take the lead and care for worship while ministerial servants will run the sound system etc. Both chair meeting parts, where other brothers and sisters are also used. My congregation has about 12 elders and about an equal number of ministerial servants.

New Witnesses need training in the ministry, door to door work, and in conducting Bible studies, etc., so each week we have a ministry school with various men, women, and even children receiving training. (It's a school one has to volunteer for.)



> Also why do they control where and at what time you worship? Seems like every few months My mom is changing up, one month its Sunday afternoon worship the next month it's in the mornings.



Local congregations are in charge of meeting times. They don’t usually change unless there are more than one congregation using the building. Then they exchange meeting times once a year so it’s fair for everyone.



> My cousin lived in a different part of town one time, but she could not worship at the kingdom Hall my Mom worshiped at, they told her where she would be attending. Why cant JW's be free to worship at the kingdom Hall of there choice and at what time they would like to worship?



Actually they probably told her where she should attend, because she lived closest to a certain Kingdom hall. They do that to keep the sizes of congregations manageable. Our buildings usually only have seating for about 200 people.

In practice people visit other congregations all the time. I live in Florida and the congregations down here are packed with snowbirds and vacationers during the winter.

 A month or so ago I missed the Sunday meeting at my Kingdom Hall, it has a 10:00 a.m. start time. So I went to a Kingdom hall across town that has a 1:00 p.m. meeting. 

I felt right at home! I could go to any Kingdom Hall in the world and feel right at home.


----------



## Will Galen

Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs on whether infants and small children should be baptized?

Infant Baptism
Jesus instructed his followers: “Make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:19, 20) 

Note the words, (Make disciples . . . baptize them) Those words show that those who are baptized must first be disciples of Jesus. That is, they are individuals who have learned about Jesus and have chosen to believe in him and follow him, a choice that no infant, or small child, can make.

Other scriptures also show that knowledge of Jesus is a requirement of being his disciple . . . before that person is baptized. 

At Pentecost, 33 C.E., the Jews and proselytes that assembled there already had a knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures. There they heard Peter speak about Jesus the Messiah, with the result that 3,000 “embraced his word heartily” and “were baptized.” (Acts 2:41; 3:19–4:4; 10:34-38) 

Those in Samaria first believed Philip’s preaching of the good news, and then they were baptized. (Acts 8:12) 

The Ethiopian eunuch, a devout Jewish proselyte who, as such, also had knowledge of Jehovah and the Hebrew Scriptures, heard first the explanation of the fulfillment of these scriptures in Christ, accepted it, and then wanted to be baptized. (Acts 8:34-36)

Even so, many people insist that Jesus’ command applies to small children. 

However, the fact that Jesus did not teach that infants should be baptized is significant. Why? Because Jesus earnestly taught his disciples about God’s requirements. At times, he repeated key teachings to ensure that his disciples grasped the point. (Matthew 24:42; 25:13; Mark 9:34-37; 10:35-45) 

Yet, not even once did he teach that infants should be baptized. Did Jesus somehow forget to mention the requirement? No, in a prayer the night before his death, Jesus said to his heavenly Father, “I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do.” (John 17:4) The next day just before he died Jesus said, It has been accomplished, then he hung his head and died. (John 19:30)

Jesus accomplished all his Father sent him to do, thus it follows that if infants and small Children were to be baptized Jesus would have said so. Why didn’t he? Because infants and small children are considered holy if they have a believing Christian parent. Thus they don't need to be baptized until they reach the age of understanding and can make the choice.

Paul explains at 1 Corinthians 7:12-14 “ . . . If any brother has an unbelieving wife and she is agreeable to staying with him, let him not leave her; 13and if a woman has an unbelieving husband and he is agreeable to staying with her, let her not leave her husband. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified in relation to his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified in relation to the brother; otherwise, your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. 15But if the unbelieving one chooses to depart, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not bound under such circumstances . . .”

The dictionary defines sanctified as: made holy; consecrated: So where it says the one mate is sanctified in relation to the other it means the marriage is sanctified or considered holy in the sight of God, not that the Christian mate makes the other mate a Christian.

So we see minor children too young to have the ability to make decisions are considered holy because of the believing parent. The point needed to be understood here is, if infants could properly be baptized, they would not need to be considered holy because of the believing parent.

So clearly, the Bible does not teach that infants and small children should be baptized. They are already considered holy because of their believing parent.


----------



## hobbs27

Welcome aboard, I have a question.


When was the great tribulation and where do you back that up in Scripture?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Glad you are willing to share what you believe. Many of us here take great interest in other's beliefs... even if they don't agree with our own. I have several questions that stem from conflicting beliefs from the only two JW's I have known. One said they worked for their salvation, another said no, yet he kept a written log on hour many hours each week that he had in door to door. Question of my own, do you consider injesting blood a a transfusion the same in God's eyes. Well, I guess you do, maybe I should word it differently... well, I can't find the words because I realize that I would not be asking but rather pointing out my own thoughts. I myself have many like beliefs to the Jw's but not in regards to the blood issue. Not that I just don't want to accept it because it does not suit me but on the bases that I don't think the intent  of the writer  was that which Jw's have interpreted it. Mercy... should I delete this or not. I really don't wish to sound argumenative. I try to spur dialog. But this sounds more like me trying to prove you wrong. Oh well, I'll post it. Are there different beliefs within JW's? Possibly any group that calls themselves JW's but that don't hold to the obstaining from blood as a rule of faith?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Hey Will, you do a good job conveying your thoughts in your post.


----------



## Will Galen

hobbs27 said:


> Welcome aboard, I have a question.
> 
> When was the great tribulation and where do you back that up in Scripture?



Thank you for your kind welcome!

As for your question, it's not the kind I plan on answering at first. People are more interested in why we believe the things we do. Like why don't we have blood transfusions. So for right now I plan on answering questions that I think generate the most interest.

Thank you, and good day!


----------



## Will Galen

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey Will, you do a good job conveying your thoughts in your post.



Thank you!

I appreciate your kind words!

This is a lot like getting a talk up for my congregation, but not having to stand before everybody to give it.

Good day!


----------



## glynr329

This is the way I think. I do not judge anyone on what they believe I am not god and so is no one else. If it makes you a better person no matter your belief that is great. I am pretty sure if you really believe you are not supposed to either. I can tell you this and always said it. If all religions work as hard as JW your churches would be full. That is a fact period. All religions need to change their way of thinking. Stay positive try to change others by telling them how great it is. Stop condeming and leave the negativity out of it. That is what true believers should do. Again period!!!


----------



## hobbs27

Will Galen said:


> Thank you for your kind welcome!
> 
> As for your question, it's not the kind I plan on answering at first. People are more interested in why we believe the things we do. Like why don't we have blood transfusions. So for right now I plan on answering questions that I think generate the most interest.
> 
> Thank you, and good day!




 I certainly have different interests than a lot of folks, I won't disagree there.

 Maybe you will answer this. I'm Revelation there's two accounts of John bowing down and worshipping an Angel. Both times he is rebuked for it and told to worship God only.
 But when John fell at Jesus feet in worship he was comforted for it.
 How do you suppose John is comforted for worshipping Jesus but rebuked for worshipping an Angel?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> I certainly have different interests than a lot of folks, I won't disagree there.
> 
> Maybe you will answer this. I'm Revelation there's two accounts of John bowing down and worshipping an Angel. Both times he is rebuked for it and told to worship God only.
> But when John fell at Jesus feet in worship he was comforted for it.
> How do you suppose John is comforted for worshipping Jesus but rebuked for worshipping an Angel?


When did John bow at Jesus feet? I can't recall this.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Hebrews 1:6
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."


----------



## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> When did John bow at Jesus feet? I can't recall this.



Revelation 1:17


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Hebrews 1:6
> And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."



Love Hebrews, that's some good stuff!


----------



## Will Galen

1gr8bldr said:


> Glad you are willing to share what you believe. Many of us here take great interest in other's beliefs... even if they don't agree with our own.



Thank you! Sharing what we believe with others is part of what we believe Christians have been instructed to do. Note the following scripture.

1 Peter 3:15 says, But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect.

Myself, Iâ€™ve been a Witness most of my 72 years so I know a lot about Jehovahâ€™s Witnesses and what we actually believe. The thing is Iâ€™m human just like everyone else, which means I can make mistakes. I once had a nephew shoot one of my answers down. 

It was many years ago and I donâ€™t remember the particulars of our conversation anymore. But I had insisted the name of our chief magazine was The Watchtower. He replied, â€œThe name on the front of your magazine says itâ€™s The Watchtower announcing Jehovahâ€™s Kingdom.â€� Duh . . . he was right, I was wrong. I was also embarrassed!

The point I want to make is Iâ€™m knowledgeable, and I always try and check my facts before I state something in writing, but like everyone I sometimes make mistakes. Thus anyone wanting a fast answer or an actual authoritative voice on what Jehovahâ€™s Witnesses believe should go to our  website at jw.org.



> I have several questions that stem from conflicting beliefs from the only two JW's I have known. One said they worked for their salvation, another said no, yet he kept a written log on hour many hours each week that he had in door to door.



They might not have conflicting beliefs. Depending on how a question on salvation is asked I could reply yes or no. For example, if you asked me if I needed works for salvation, I would replay yes, because works are a sign of your faith which leads to salvation. However if you asked me if I could receive salvation from works alone I would say no.

Thereâ€™s absolutely nothing anyone can do to merit salvation. Neither works or faith merit salvation. Salvation is a free gift of God. If mankind could have worked out our own salvation Jesus wouldnâ€™t have had to shed his blood and die for us.

A basic explanation;  In the garden of Eden God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of one particular tree or they would die. The Devil told Eve they would not die and induced her to eat of the tree.  She in turn then gave some to Adam who ate it.

By breaking the only rule God had given them up to this time, Adam and Eve became sinners, meaning they were unclean in Godâ€™s sight, and died just as God said they would.

It was only after becoming sinners that Adam and Eve produced children. Since they were unclean all they could produce is unclean children. As an example itâ€™s something like having a cake pan with a dent in it. All the cakes produced by that pan will also have dents in them.

The Bible says of mankind at Job 14:4, â€œWho can produce someone clean from someone unclean? No one can!â€�  Referring to the example above, it means we, mankind had no way of fixing the dent ourselves.

Meaning in this case Adam and Eveâ€™s sin was hereditary and we, their children, die just like they did. As Job14:4 above shows, we couldnâ€™t do anything about our being unclean. So God provided a redeemer/savior for us. The apostle John wrote at John 3:16, â€œFor God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.â€�

Romans 3:23,24 explains, â€œFor all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus.â€�

So as Matthew 20:28 says â€œ. . . the Son of man came . . . to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.â€�

Since Jesus never broke any of Godâ€™s lawâ€™s he never sinned, so when he was unjustly killed he still had the right to human life. He used that right in behalf of mankind, thus he gave himself as a corresponding ransom for all that obey him and thus ransomed us from sin and death. He thus replaces Adam as our life giver. Those who accept his sacrifice acknowledge him as â€˜theirâ€™ savior, and show appreciation by obeying him. Doing this puts them in line for everlasting life.

However, to be in line for everlasting life we canâ€™t be like our long ago grandparents Adam and Eve and be disobedient. For Jesus to apply the ransom in our behalf we each have to do what he tells Christians to do.

Jesus says at John 14:12, â€œMost truly I say to you, whoever exercises faith in me will also do the works that I do;â€�

Thus Jesus is saying that if we truly have faith in him, we will do the works that he did. 

One more scripture that helps us on this subject is found at James the 2nd chapter. James 2:18-26 says, 18Nevertheless, someone will say: â€œYou have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.â€� 19You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 

22You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23and the scripture was fulfilled that says: â€œAbraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,â€� and he came to be called Jehovahâ€™s friend. 24You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same manner, was not RaÊ¹hab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? 26Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

What have we learned? Salvation is a free gift from God, not something one earns. God gives this free gift to those putting their faith in Christ Jesus and obeying him. Yet a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone.

Thus we believe our works prove our faith which leads to salvation, but neither our works or our faith make us merit salvation, that is Gods free gift.
----------

As for keeping a log of our time in our ministry, everything we do is organized to accomplish what Jesus directed. How so?

In Acts 1:8 Jesus tells his apostles, â€œYou will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Ju·deÊ¹a and Sa·marÊ¹i·a, and to the most distant part of the earth.â€� 

Shortly before his death Jesus says at Matthew 24:14, â€œThis good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.â€�

But how would this global preaching work be accomplished? Jesus left instructions on that too. 

He says at Matthew 28:19, 20, â€œGo, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.â€�

Note the following similarities in the 3 scriptures above. Jesus was talking about the same thing, witnessing, preaching, and making disciples earth wide.

After Jesus commanded his disciples to GO and make more disciples, he added that his disciples were to teach the newly made disciples, â€œall the things I have commanded you.â€� If follows that the newly made disciples after having been taught would then have to make more disciples, and teach them everything they were taught. And then the new disciples after that would have to do the same. So Jesus set the disciple making work up to continue ad finem.

Note that this command of Jesus to go and make disciples is the duty of ALL Christians. However, Jehovahâ€™s Witnesses believe they are the only ones actually doing it the way Jesus commanded.

Jesus said at John 13:15, â€œI set the pattern for you.â€�

So Jehovahâ€™s Witnesses follow the pattern Jesus set when he was on earth. Luke 8:1 says of Jesus, â€œShortly afterward he traveled from city to city and from village to village, preaching and declaring the good news of the Kingdom of God. And the Twelve were with him.â€�

At one time Jesus sent the apostles out by 2's to preach to the people. Then later when there were more disciples he sent 70 of them out by 2's to do the same thing. See Mark 6:7 and Luke 10:1.

After Jesus death the apostles did what Jesus commanded them to do, they preached. How did they do it? Acts 5:42 (ESV) says, And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.

The apostle Paul was taught to do the same. He says at acts 20:20, â€œI did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.â€�

Similarly today, Jehovahâ€™s Witnesses preaching work is well-organized, and each congregation is given an assigned area to cover. This enables us to fulfill Jesusâ€™ command to â€œpreach to the people and to give a thorough witness.â€� Acts 10:42.

Jesus also set the example by preaching to people in public places, such as along the seashore or by a community well. (Mark 4:1; John 4:5-15) 

We too engage people in conversations about the Bible wherever we can, on the streets, in business places, in parks, or over the telephone. We also witness to our neighbors, workmates, classmates, and relatives when we have an appropriate opportunity.

We have to be well organized to do the preaching work. We keep records to tell us how we are doing. For example, in 2014 Jehovahâ€™s Witnesses spent 1,945,487,604 hours in the preaching work, almost 2 billion hours a year. We conducted 9,499,933 Bible studies with interested ones, mostly in their homes, and at a time convenient for them.

We need to keep track of what we do in the ministry so as to know how good of a job we are doing. We have the whole world to preach to, how would we know where to preach if we didnâ€™t keep records of our ministry? Such reports may indicate that particular attention needs to be given to certain aspects of our ministry.	



> Question of my own, do you consider injesting blood a a transfusion the same in God's eyes. Well, I guess you do, maybe I should word it differently... well, I can't find the words because I realize that I would not be asking but rather pointing out my own thoughts. I myself have many like beliefs to the Jw's but not in regards to the blood issue. Not that I just don't want to accept it because it does not suit me but on the bases that I don't think the intent  of the writer was that which Jw's have interpreted it.



In my post on blood transfusions I just touched the surface on what God says about blood. I suggest taking a bible concordance and looking up all the scriptures that deal with blood. Then meditating and praying on what God says about it. You might come to our understanding of the matter.



> Mercy... should I delete this or not. I really don't wish to sound argumenative. I try to spur dialog.



Most Jehovahâ€™s Witnesses grow thick skins and are used to people being argumentative, it comes from preaching to all sorts. And you did spur dialog from me, 5 pages worth. (grin) 



> But this sounds more like me trying to prove you wrong. Oh well, I'll post it. Are there different beliefs within JW's? Possibly any group that calls themselves JW's but that don't hold to the obstaining from blood as a rule of faith?



We donâ€™t have divisions. The Bible says not to do that.

The apostle Paul says, â€œNow I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.â€�  (1 Corinthians 1:10)


----------



## hobbs27

Will Galen said:


> We don’t have divisions. The Bible says not to do that.
> 
> The apostle Paul says, “Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”  (1 Corinthians 1:10)



Peter and Paul had divisions.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

You say, and I quote "Thus we believe our works prove our faith which leads to salvation, but neither our works or our faith make us merit salvation, that is Gods free gift." I actually expected this response. I wanted you to voice it without being prompted because most people don't realize this. I think it is important that the world know this. It does not bring you together, but the division is not as far


----------



## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> Revelation 1:17


Thanks.


----------



## Will Galen

Here's something I wrote for a another website. I was going to re-write it to use on here because I'm basically telling them some of the things Jehovah's Witnesses believe. 

Including, What God promises for the Earth, Why some people go to heaven. Who selects the ones who will go to heaven? What’s the destiny of the earth?

What we were talking about was living forever, so I approached it to try and show God's way is best. I'm posting the whole thing because I think some will find that part interesting too.

I do some preaching, but I was advocating for Christians, not Jehovah's Witnesses, so I don't think anyone on here will be offended. If so tell me and I'll delete it.


Everlasting Life, by Science or by God?

Everyone has highs and lows as they go though life, yet despite the low’s people of sound mind and body would like to live forever if it were possible.

Some think science will someday make living forever possible. Right now scientists are working on a variety of things they think could make living forever possible. One way is by replacing our body parts by cloning them. That brings up mental pictures of Frankenstein, but it seems feasible except for the problem of replacing our brains and all the memories contained therein.

Another thing scientists are working on is someway to make our cells replicate perfect copies of themselves. It would be possible right now, today, to live forever if our cells would continue to make error-free copies of themselves. However, after we get so old our cells start making imperfect copies, and this degradation continues until our bodies can no longer fight off all the things that can kill us.

This following isn’t at all how it actually works, it’s just a simplistic illustration of how our cell replacement process works. 

Picture a cell as looking like a ladder, with one half of the ladder painted white from top to bottom, and the other half painted black. After a period of time the white half dies leaving just the black half, the black half then grows a new white half and lives on for a period of time. The black half then dies leaving the white half and the white half grows a new black half and it lives on for a period of time before it too dies, etc. 

The only thing preventing this process from going on forever is the bottom of the ladder, it’s feet. The feet wear away over time, getting shorter and shorter until the ladder itself starts wearing away. The ladder then starts making imperfect copies of itself with more and more degradation. 

In real life, once the cell can’t reproduce perfect copies of itself, it’s just a matter of time until we die. Scientists are working on ways to keep the feet of the ladder, in actually a group of moleculars called telomere chains, from wearing away. If they could do that, living forever would be theoretically possible.

Consider though what would happen if there was a scientific breakthrough wherein say a drug was found that would coat the telomere chains with a substance so they wouldn’t wear away, thus as long as we took this drug periodically our cells could continue replacing themselves with perfect copies forever.

Such a breakthrough wouldn’t reverse the aging process, it would just stop it, it wouldn’t make a person younger, it would just freeze them at whatever age they were when they first started taking the drug.

There would be the possibility that the drug wouldn’t work on everyone. For example, say your telomere chains have already been wore away, what then? Maybe the drug just wouldn’t work on you so you would continue to age.

However, regardless of whether the drug worked on everyone or not, all it would really do at least initially, is add to mankind’s problems.

How so? The first problem to pop up would undoubtedly be one of greed. Whoever patented this drug would no doubt price it out of the common peoples reach. Only the rich and powerful would initially be able to receive it.

The thought of the rich and powerful living forever while they and their loved ones continued to die probably wouldn’t be tolerated by the masses for long, if at all. If wiser heads didn’t prevail quickly, the result would probably be complete anarchy. Maybe for once though those in power would realize from the start that everyone would have to be able to afford this drug or chaos would ensue.

However even if the possibility of chaos were dodged, so many people living forever would quickly create another problem. The earth doesn’t have infinite resources, it can only support so much life. The result would be that the overcrowding of the earth would accelerate.

Lets say to get around the population problem they made it a law that you first had to undergo sterilization so you couldn’t have children before you could have the drug. Most people probably wouldn’t like that, but would see the sense of it and go along with it. However, being able to live forever wouldn’t solve man-kinds other problems like racial hatred, greed, crime, terrorism and war etc.

For instance, what good would being able to live forever do you if terrorists flew a plane into the building where you worked, and your only two choices were to burn to death or jump to your death? Or how about some druggie stabbing you in the heart for your money so he could buy more drugs? We could still catch disease and die, we could still starve to death. We could still get so depressed that we commit suicide. Being able to live forever as things are now wouldn’t mean a better life, just a longer life.

What God Promises
On the other hand contrast what kind of life God promises to go along with his promise of everlasting life. And this promise isn’t just to the living, he promises that his son Christ Jesus will resurrect all those in the memorial tombs to life again. 

Here are just some of God’s promises:

Revelation 21:4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.” 

Micah 4:4, And they will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making [them] tremble; . . . 

Psalm 46:9, He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; . . . 

Isaiah 2:4, And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.

Psalm 72:16, There will come to be plenty of grain on the earth; On the top of the mountains there will be an overflow. His fruit will be as in Leba·non, And those who are from the city will blossom like the vegetation of the earth.

Hosea 2:18, And for them I shall certainly conclude a covenant in that day in connection with the wild beast of the field and with the flying creature of the heavens and the creeping thing of the ground, and the bow and the sword and war I shall break out of the land, and I will make them lie down in security.

Isaiah 11:6-9, And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. 7 And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. 8 And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. 9 They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.

Isaiah 65:21-23, And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage. 22They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full. 23 They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance; because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah, and their descendants with them.

Isaiah 33:24, And no resident will say: “I am sick.” The people that are dwelling in [the land] will be those pardoned for their error.

Job 33:25, Let his flesh become fresher than in youth; Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor.

(Isaiah 35:6-7) At that time the lame one will climb up just as a stag does, and the tongue of the speechless one will cry out in gladness. For in the wilderness waters will have burst out, and torrents in the desert plain. 7And the heat-parched ground will have become as a reedy pool, and the thirsty ground as springs of water. In the abiding place of jackals, a resting-place for [them], there will be green grass with reeds and papyrus plants.

Can you see the difference in the quality of life God promises, and what we would have if science made it possible to live forever? 

As for the earth running out of room for people to live via an ever growing population, God revealed his plan to prevent that to Adam and Eve right from the start. At Genesis 1:28, God told Adam and Eve, “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”

Note that God told Adam and Eve to, “become many and fill the earth.” This rules out mankind overpopulating the earth. When you fill a glass with water to drink you fill it to a certain point and then quit filling it. This means that whenever the earth reached a certain capacity to support life, there would be no more children being conceived. Whether this would mean mankind will have to abstain from sex, or that God will just fix mankind so no more children can be born, the bible doesn’t say. That’s something you will have to be there to find out. We just perceive from reading Genesis 1:28, that the earth won’t suffer from a population problem.

Not only will God resurrect our loved ones, or us if we die, he promises there will eventually be no more death, and we will return to our youthful vigor. We won’t toil for nothing, we’ll work for ourselves and enjoy our own produce. There will be plenty to eat for everyone. The animals will all be friendly and won’t harm us or our children that are born before the earth has reached capacity.

This no doubt sounds to some like a ‘too good to be true fairy tale,’ but this is what would have eventually happened if Adam and Eve would have proved faithful. And it’s still what God plans to do with the earth.

Think back to what he did for Adam and Eve without their asking. 

He not only created each of them but he gave them a perfect environment to live in, a variety of different foods to eat, an engaging work to do, and the possibility of living forever. Plus he gave them what each of them no doubt thought was a beautiful mate. 

He gave them all that and what did he require? Just that they not eat of one tree of the garden to show their obedience. Can’t you see what a loving God our creator is? 

As for living forever getting boring, 1 Corinthians 2:9 says, . . .“Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him. . .”

I repeat, “can’t you see what a loving God our creator is? “


The Choice

Which of the two possible scenarios would you prefer living in? The one you actually live in now, one that hopes science finds a way to make life longer, but doesn’t make your life different, or better, and one that even with the possibility of living forever wouldn’t guarantee you even living until the next day.

Or would you prefer to live under God’s rulership, one that guarantees that all pain, sorrow, sickness, and death will be done away with, a happy life with an endless future of continuing happiness?

We have a simple choice, just as simple as the choice put before Adam and Eve, the choice of obeying our creator and thus living forever, or doing whatever we want to do for however long we have left to live.

The Bible says at Proverbs 11:19, “The one firmly standing for righteousness is in line for life, but the one chasing after what is bad is in line for his own death.” 

How do you stand up for righteousness? You learn what God’s will is, then you do it. The Bible says at John 17:3, “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”

Where do you get that knowledge? From the book God inspired to be written, the Bible.

You start by reading it and applying it to your life. For instant, when you read that God hates a liar, you quit lying and always tell the truth. When you read that God dislikes gluttony, you quit overeating. It’s as simple as applying scriptures to yourself and making any needed changes.
-----------------------------

This is long so I'm going to break it into two parts. 
Next I’m going to address what some are thinking, that being, “Good people go to heaven, they don’t live on the earth.”

The Bible of course tells us that some of mankind will join Christ Jesus in heaven, but it also shows that “. . . the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.” Psalms 37:11.


----------



## hobbs27

As a child , my best friend and neighbor had JW parents. He was raised not ever having a Christmas tree or Christmas presents. 
 He always came down to my house the day after Christmas to play with my new toys, I never knew until later why he didn't get anything.
 Looking back on it, it must have been a very sad childhood , growing up like that, not allowed to participate in a Christian celebration of the birth of Christ.

 It hurts me to this day, if I had just known more then, I could have given him something in secret that his parents didn't know about so he too could enjoy the gift of giving and receiving in celebration of the birth of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ. King of Kings and Lord of Lords!


----------



## Will Galen

Why some people go to heaven.

Jesus at John 14:2,3 said, “In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be.” 

Jesus here shows that his faithful apostles, to whom he was speaking, would, in time, be in his Father’s “house,” in heaven, with Jesus. Furthermore the Bible tells us what they will be doing there.

Revelation 3:21 has Jesus saying, To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Revelation 5:9-10 says of Jesus, . . . with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Rev. 20:6: “They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”

Jesus’ apostle to the nations, the apostle Paul referred to Christians as ruling at 1 Corinthians 4:8, where some early Christians were evidently seeking undue prominence in the congregation, because he says to them, 8. . . “YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings.” 

The Apostle Paul again referred to Christians ruling as Kings at 2 Timothy 2:12, which says, “ . . . if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings; if we deny, he also will deny us; “

Another scripture, 1 Cor. 6:2 referring to the apostles and other early Christians, says, “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”

So we see that those who go to heaven do so to rule as Kings over the earth and they, along with Jesus will actually judge the world, obviously meaning the world of mankind. Which means there will be people on the earth to judge.

Who selects the ones who will go to heaven?

2 Thess. 2:13,14: “We are obligated to thank God always for you, brothers loved by Jehovah, because God selected you from the beginning for salvation by sanctifying you with spirit and by your faith in the truth. To this very destiny he called you through the good news we declare, for the purpose of acquiring the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Notice the one’s God selects acquire the same glory as Jesus Christ. These are the one’s that will rule with him.

Obviously you don’t need as many rulers as subjects. Thus the majority of mankind will live on the earth and fulfill God’s original purpose that he gave to Adam and Eve. Genesis 1:28 says, “Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” 

The Bible shows that the rebellion in Eden didn’t alter God’s plans. Isaiah 45:18 tells us that 18. . . God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, . . . did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: . . .”

Ten verses later at Isaiah 55:11 God says of his plans, 11so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it.

So the above scriptures show that God still plans to have the earth filled with humans whose job will be to take care of it. Thus we can understand when scriptures say the following.

Psalm 37:9-11 . . .For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth. 

10And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. 11But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

Psalm 37:29, The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.

Psalm 104:5, He has founded the earth upon its established places; It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever.

Psalm 119:90, Your faithfulness is for generation after generation. You have solidly fixed the earth, that it may keep standing.


What’s the destiny of the earth?
But what about the scriptures that say the earth will be destroyed? And the ones that say there will be a new earth? Don’t they conflict with scriptures that say the earth will never be made to totter?

Since all Bible scriptures are in harmony they obviously conflict unless you discern the right interpretation. In this case however what the Bible says doesn’t need interpretation. Note that 2 Peter says the earth was destroyed once before.

Second Peter 3:3-7 says, 3For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? [Speaking of Jesus’ coming again] Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.” 

5For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water. 7But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.

Notice other Bible translations say the same thing.

2 Peter 3:6, New International Version 
By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.

2 Peter 3:6, New Living Translation 
Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood.

2 Peter 3:6, New American Standard Bible
through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

2 Peter 3:6, International Standard Version 
by which the world at that time was deluged with water and destroyed.

2 Peter 3:6, Aramaic Bible in Plain English 
By which the world which then was, lay in water and was destroyed.

Notice it says the world of that time was destroyed. Then it says in verse 7 "But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men."

Verse 7 shows us that what is going to be destroyed is ungodly men.

What does it mean though when it says the, “heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire?”

To paraphrase The Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by M’Clintock and Strong, In prophetic language, the heavens signify the ruling powers while the earth pictures those being ruled over.

In prophecy 'heaven and earth' also refer to mankind, just different ranks.

As for being stored up for fire, the Bible sometimes uses fire as a symbol that things are to be cleansed or have been cleansed or atoned for. For example Isaiah 6:6,7 says, ". . . one of the seraphs flew to me, and in his hand there was a glowing coal that he had taken with tongs off the altar. And he proceeded to touch my mouth and to say: ‘Look! This has touched your lips, and your error has departed and your sin itself is atoned for.’

So once the ungodly are done away with it would be like everything was burnt away leaving a new or cleansed earth.

So we see the earth won’t actually be destroyed, just as it wasn’t actually destroyed in Noah’s day. Only the ungodly will be destroyed. Meaning those who don’t obey God and his son Jesus.

Remember too the scripture we read above at John 14:2,3 where Jesus promised his apostles, “In the house of my Father there are many abodes, and he Jesus was going there to make a place for them. Would it make sense for him to promise his apostles a place to live if God was going to destroy heaven? Of course not. 

And it makes no sense for God to destroy the physical heavens with fire either. One, the sun and stars are already on fire. And two why destroy the sun, moon, and stars just to get rid of ungodly men on earth?

Think, if you owned an apartment building and some people were living there according to your rules and others were causing trouble and destroying things, would you destroy your whole apartment to get rid of them? You would just evict the trouble makers wouldn’t you.

What about scriptures that refer to a new heavens and a new earth?
2 Peter 3:13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

Isaiah 65:17 “For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart.

Recall what I paraphrased  from The Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by M’Clintock and Strong? The heavens signify those ruling, the earth signify's those being ruled over.

The new heavens would be Christ Jesus and those ruling with him. And the new earth would be those who are obedient to God and Jesus, but are not chosen for rulership.

There’s more scriptures on this, but this is the general outline that I wanted to present to show that people would be living on the earth in the paradise conditions reported in the first post.

One more scripture. In the last chapter of Revelation, verse 5 says, “The One seated on the throne said: ‘Look! I am making all things new.’ Also, he says, . . . ‘These words are faithful and true.’ ”

Notice in that last scripture it says, “I am making all things new.” Meaning he’s making all current things new, not that he is constructing all new things. 

God’s promise to give obedient mankind everlasting life, both in the heavens and on the earth will come to fulfillment. "The words in the Bible are faithful and true."


----------



## Artfuldodger

I'd like to hear more about "thy Kingdom come, on earth as it is in Heaven."

I share a belief with JW's in not believing Jesus is 1/3 of the Godhead. If I did believe I'd lean more towards Oneness than the traditional Trinitarian. I would believe Jesus is his Father before dividing God into three.
I do not believe Jesus is Michael. Maybe he is type of Michael as he is a type of Adam. In such he is the image of his Father. 
We are made in God's image too.


----------



## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> You say, and I quote "Thus we believe our works prove our faith which leads to salvation, but neither our works or our faith make us merit salvation, that is Gods free gift." I actually expected this response. I wanted you to voice it without being prompted because most people don't realize this. I think it is important that the world know this. It does not bring you together, but the division is not as far



That's a pretty common way of looking at salvation with the Lordship Salvation crowd. Many Christians believe in salvation by grace but there has to be some kind of "proof" that God has elected them to salvation. Usually in the form of fruits produced by the Holy Spirit. Either wholly by the Holy Spirit or lead by the Holy Spirit.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Is there any way to tie Islam into God's plan? Islam is a fast growing religion. One would think we all need to out witness them so that God's Kingdom will come on earth as it is in Heaven.

This can't come if Islam becomes the dominate religion.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Love Hebrews, that's some good stuff!



Hebrews 1:3-4
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> As a child , my best friend and neighbor had JW parents. He was raised not ever having a Christmas tree or Christmas presents.
> He always came down to my house the day after Christmas to play with my new toys, I never knew until later why he didn't get anything.
> Looking back on it, it must have been a very sad childhood , growing up like that, not allowed to participate in a Christian celebration of the birth of Christ.
> 
> It hurts me to this day, if I had just known more then, I could have given him something in secret that his parents didn't know about so he too could enjoy the gift of giving and receiving in celebration of the birth of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ. King of Kings and Lord of Lords!



I know a Baptist family that doesn't celebrate Christmas with a tree and gifts. They strictly keep it a religious holiday. I'm sure they miss the secular side of Christmas.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I know a Baptist family that doesn't celebrate Christmas with a tree and gifts. They strictly keep it a religious holiday. I'm sure they miss the secular side of Christmas.



 I'm sure they do. At least they don't have to pretend Christmas isn't happening around them.


----------



## GunnSmokeer

I can understand Witnesses' refusal to treat Christmas as a religious holiday, when it was not something the early church observed and in fact was created by man centuries later to dilute and co-opt a pagan winter holiday.

What I have a harder time with is their refusal to enjoy the greater Christmas season as a secular holiday, a winter holiday, a time of family gatherings and vacations from work and school, and a great opportunity to recognize important people in your life with cards and gifts.

Even IF "Christmas" was not commanded by the Lord nor even approved as a form of worship and praise, why can't Witnesses accept it as a secular holiday that is an American tradition and part of Western civilization for hundreds of years?
Rejecting Christmas seems both anti- Christian AND anti-American.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I would say let's move Christmas to June 17th. This is the day most likely the wise men saw a bright star.
Then we could have a Winter Solstice celebration in December with evergreen trees, yule logs, and mistletoe.

I think the problem lies with the combination of Christ's birth combined with religious rituals from other religions.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I would say let's move Christmas to June 17th. This is the day most likely the wise men saw a bright star.
> Then we could have a Winter Solstice celebration in December with evergreen trees, yule logs, and mistletoe.
> 
> I think the problem lies with the combination of Christ's birth combined with religious rituals from other religions.




What problem?


----------



## Artfuldodger

The problem an individual has of justification. Having to justify Christianity adopting Pagan rituals as a way to influence Pagans to convert. I guess one could justify it a spreading the Gospel by whatever means were necessary. 
I'm sure slavery converted many to Christianity that otherwise would have never been reached.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> The problem an individual has of justification. Having to justify Christianity adopting Pagan rituals as a way to influence Pagans to convert. I guess one could justify it a spreading the Gospel by whatever means were necessary.
> I'm sure slavery converted many to Christianity that otherwise would have never been reached.



The argument that Christmas has Pagan roots so don't celebrate it, is the same ludicrous argument that I'm responsible for Slavery because I'm white, and I owe blacks an apology.
 Christmas is a celebration of the birth of our Savior.. It's has been for many generations.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

I understand the argument as to why some don't wish to celebrate Jesus's birth on that day due to pagan orgins. So I say to them, which day have you decided to celebrate his birth?


----------



## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> I understand the argument as to why some don't wish to celebrate Jesus's birth on that day due to pagan orgins. So I say to them, which day have you decided to celebrate his birth?



I guess at this point in history, it would be hard to change it for the whole world celebrates Christ's birthday on Dec. 25th. 
One could personally choose another day to celebrate Christ's birthday. Then we're back to the same argument of Sabbath keeping. Does it really matter what day we choose as our Sabbath? 
I can see JW's point on not celebrating near the winter solstice using pagan rituals etc. The Baptist family I was referring to believe Christmas should not be so secular and commercial. Their kids were taught that Santa was make believe. I can see their prospective. Theirs is for other reasons than the JW's who say it's because it's based on The Pagan celebration of the Winter Solstice.

That being said, their are many beliefs involving the JW's that should be considered for discussion other than things like celebrating birthdays and consuming blood. I'm not too concerned with the dietary restrictions, their witness program, who can enter their Kingdom hall, not attending wedding & funerals in churches of other denominations, and things of this nature.

I'm more concerned with their views on who Jesus is, how "works" affect salvation, and why they are the only one's witnessing properly.  Also worth discussing is Christ's return and God's Kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven.
Whether there will be an actual physical Kingdom on the earth that isn't here yet vs a spiritual kingdom that's already here. Having a spiritual resurrection vs soul sleep.
Being in the Kingdom instead of waiting in the ground for it.
Having a spiritual resurrection to Heaven instead of waiting in some type of spiritual holding place.
Staying in Heaven instead of returning for a physical resurrection. 
Eternal death vs eternal burning. Being good enough to live in the Kingdom by "works" vs dying when you die.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Jacob wrestled with the Angel of the Lord. 

Angel?


----------



## Mako22

JWs know nothing and are not even worth debating with. One day they will all believe in the hot place of fire that they deny so strongly. A hurtful cult is all they are; they break families apart and drive some to insanity!


----------



## centerpin fan

Woodsman69 said:


> JWs know nothing and are not even worth debating with. One day they will all believe in the hot place of fire that they deny so strongly. A hurtful cult is all they are; they break families apart and drive some to insanity!


----------



## Fuzzy D Fellers

Glad Jesus is the judge! Yall want to send every one to Hades.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Woodsman69 said:


> JWs know nothing and are not even worth debating with. One day they will all believe in the hot place of fire that they deny so strongly. A hurtful cult is all they are; they break families apart and drive some to insanity!



Although not a JW, I believe the unsaved will not have eternal life. I think JW's believe Jesus died for their sins as described in John 3:16. Salvation is of the Lords. It's a pretty simple formula. 
JW's know what they know.


----------



## Will Galen

Were Adam and Eve merely Allegorical (Fictional) Persons?

Because scientists have put forth the theory of Evolution as to how we got here, some Christian denominations decided to deny the Biblical account of the rebellion in Eden as being the literal truth and declare the account allegorical. Meaning not real, but an abstract spiritual meaning whereby Adam represents all early men.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe the creation account. What’s overlooked by unbelievers is the Eden account is referred to by many other books of the Bible and they always speak of the account as if it were real. Consider some accounts. 

(Luke 3:23) When Jesus began his work, he was about 30 years old, being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph . . . son of David . . . son of Abraham . . . son of Noah . . . son of Adam . . . son of God. 

Luke says at Luke 1:3, “I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order.” Then in the third chapter of Luke he lists the genealogy of Jesus. [Only a partial list is presented above]  Adam is included with Jesus’ ancestors, being the first man listed. By saying, “I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, and then by listing Adam as part of Jesus’ genealogy Luke’s attesting the Eden account as true, and Adam is a real person.
----------

(1 Chronicles 1:1-4)  Adam, Seth, Enosh, 2Kenan, Mahalalel, Jared, 3Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech, 4Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Here’s another genealogy mentioning Adam. This time in the Bible book of 1st Chronicles.
----------

(1 Corinthians 15:20-22) But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

(1 Corinthians 15:45,47) So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam (Jesus) became a life-giving spirit. 47The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven.” 

The apostle Paul says the ‘first man Adam’ was a living person. Thus attesting to the Genesis account of creation as true, and ruling out Adam as an allegorical person representing all early man.
----------

(Jude 14,15)“Yes, the seventh one in line from Adam, Eʹnoch, also prophesied about them when he said: “Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads 15to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and concerning all the shocking things that ungodly sinners spoke against him.”

Here Jesus’ step brother Jude attests Adam is real by saying Enoch was seventh in line from Adam.
----------

(John 8:44) "You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.”

The apostle John here records Jesus speaking to the Jews seeking to kill him. Adam isn’t mentioned, but when Jesus refers to the Devil as a murderer and the father of the lie, he’s referring to the account in Eden. That’s where the Devil told the first lie to Eve. He is a murderer when he began because Adam and Eve died because of the Devil’s lies. Thus both John and Jesus are attesting the Eden account as true.
---------- 

(Revelation 12:9) So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

(Revelation 20:1, 2)  And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. 

There’s two references in the Bible book of Revelation lending credibility to the Eden account. When the apostle John speaks of the Devil as the ‘original serpent,’ he is referring to the account in Eden. 
---------- 

(1 Timothy 2:13,14) For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and became a transgressor.

This scripture is referring directly to the account in Eden, thus presenting the account as real.
----------

(Mark 10:6) However, from the beginning of creation, ‘He made them male and female.

This is a short scripture, but it packs a lot of information. First it’s referring to the first human pair, Adam and Eve. Second, it shows God didn’t use Evolution as a part of the creation process to make mankind, which is what some people claim. How so?

Evolution says life sprang spontaneously from nonliving matter, and life gradually evolved. Mark’s account says God made them male and female from the beginning of creation.

If Evolution were true the fossil record should show simple life forms originating gradually and transitional forms linking previous ones, but it doesn’t. The fossil record shows a sudden appearance of complex life in great variety and in separate kinds. So
God making them male and female from the beginning of creation is proven by the fossil record.
----------
(Romans 5:14) Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come.

Adam sinned by disobeying God. Those who had not sinned in the same way are the descendants of Adam and Eve. Because they sinned before conceiving any children, we, their children, inherited sin and death from them. Romans 5:12 confirms, “That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned . . .”

Jesus is the one that Adam bears a resemblance to in as much as God sent Jesus to die for us and thus replace Adam as our life giver.

As you can see from the above if Adam didn’t really exist then there would have been no need for Jesus to die for us because no sin would have been committed. Since Jesus did die for us it’s proof of Adam’s existence, and the Eden creation account is true.
--------- 

(1 John 3:11,12) “This is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for the sake of what did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother were righteous.”

Cain killed his brother Able, both were children of Adam and Eve, giving credibility to Adam being a real person.
----------

(Matthew 19:4,5) “[Jesus] said: ‘Did you not read [at Genesis 1:27; 2:24] that he who created them [Adam and Eve] from the beginning made them male and female and said, “For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh”’” 

Jesus said, “Did you not read? Jesus was quoting scriptures about Adam and Eve, so he obviously believed Adam to be a real person
----------

(Matthew 6:9)You must pray, then, this way “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. [or Hallowed]

How does this scripture give credibility to the Eden creation account?

It was in Eden where the Devil called God a liar, thus slandering God’s name. Clearing his father’s name of the Devil’s false charges is a matter of prime concern to Jesus, and the reason Jesus put the sanctifying of God’s name first of the things he taught us to pray for.

If the Eden creation account were an allegory then there would have been no reason for God’s name to be sanctified. Thus Jesus instructing us to pray for the sanctification of God’s name shows the Eden account to be real.
----------

As you can see from the above, it’s not just Genesis that presents the Eden account as true. Many other Bible books do the same. Does that make those accounts allegorical also?

The problem with saying the Eden account is allegorical is it calls into question the whole Bible.

If Adam is an allegory representing all early mankind, then there is no real Adam. If Adam isn’t real, then he couldn’t have sinned. If Adam didn’t sin then there would be no reason for Jesus to die for us. Which leads us to Paul’s words below;

“If Christ has not been raised up, YOUR faith is useless; YOU are yet in YOUR sins. 18In fact, also, those who fell asleep [in death] in union with Christ perished. (1Corinthians 15:17,18)

Do you see where not believing the Eden account takes us? 

You might ask, “But what about the talking snake? That sounds like something in a child’s storybook, that has to make the Eden account allegorical.”

To put it bluntly to people that believe in God and angels, why should a talking snake bother you? You know God and his angels can do things impossible for mankind.

It wouldn’t have been hard for the Devil to cause a snake to talk. For example, a ventriloquist can make his voice seem to come from another source. Also see Numbers 22:26-31, where Jehovah caused Balaam’s donkey to speak.

We can see from the above that the Eden account is woven throughout the scriptures in such a way that it can’t be allegorical. The reason for a lot of the Bible being written is because God wants us to know that we die because of the rebellion in Eden and that we inherited sin and death from the rebels, and what he’s doing and plans to do to repair things.

Some denominations chose to declare the Eden account allegorical because they started believing in the theory of evolution. But the thing about the evolution theory is it was just a theory 150 years ago and it’s no more than a fading theory in our day. Life it’s proving to be to complex to have arisen spontaneously.

The evolution theory says life sprang spontaneously from nonliving matter, and life gradually evolved from there. But putting aside the first impossibility, there is no way it could have evolved! Living things have to have certain essentials to keep living. Something arising spontaneously would die almost instantly, because it wouldn’t know it needs anything to keep living, is has no way to move so it has no way to get what it needed, and getting to something it needs would be pointless since it has no way of using what it needs . . . it would have no way to do anything. Evolution is impossible.

To paraphrase George Wald, Harvard University biochemist and Nobel Laureate, 1954, "The spontaneous generation of a living organism is impossible. Yet here we are -- as a result, of spontaneous generation.”

Obviously Wald doesn't believe the Biblical account that states that Jehovah God is the fountain (source) of life. (Psalms 36:9)

Jehovah made life able to replicate it’s own kind, thus the Bible shows that life always comes from prior life. There’s even a scientific term for it called . . . the law of biogenesis. It’s the observation, attributed to Louis Pasteur, that living things come only from other living things.

In reality those denominations that have declared the Eden account an allegory have exchanged the truth for the lie!


----------



## obligated

Watchtower is blood guilty on many accounts.They are a cult.At best a real estate scam.Their "truth"constantly changes.Gods word doesnt.He is steadfast and true unlike false prophets that claim the "truth" but are blinded by arrogance and greed.The blood issue  is one they have flip flopped on and also organ transplants.They considered it cannibalism!Then there is the protecting of known pedophiles  by not expelling them and telling the victims to be silent or face the elders for "causing divisions"!Then there is the history of Charles Taze Russel and "Judge"RutherfordThey encourage you to question your faith to see if it is correct but any questions from rank and file about past or present teachings are frowned on.
I have several relatives in the cult.Most are alcoholic,pill popping liars that cant get an honest word out of their twisted tongues.Two are practicing elders and are drunks and have a loong history of stealing,whoring,lieing and being hypocrites.White washed graves with every sort of defilement inside!


----------



## hobbs27

Will Galen, 
 You have answered my questions with a response that no one is interested in that. I can understand that, but you're not going to gain anyone's interest by copy and paste propaganda right out of the watchtower publication.
 You need to engage in the discussions.


----------



## fish hawk

fish hawk said:


> My mom has been a Witness for about 25 years.....She has tried to pound there beliefs into my head for years.....Out of respect for her I even went to the Kingdom Hall on a couple of occasions and Bible studies.....I was never raised in a religous household,I can remember going to church twice while growing up.My wife and I were on a quest to find what was right for us and visited several churches and differant demonations,even the Kingdom Hall,but when I stepped foot in our church home we both knew it was the place for us,the holy spirit moved in both of us,the pastor came for a visit one night and i was saved right then and there....Im the black sheep of the family because I'm Baptist,they dont respect my beliefs at all and dont believe I'm saved because im not in there only true religion.They believe whole heartdly that theres is the one true religon and eveyone else is not saved!!!


Little update since I posted in this thread last.My step father committed adultery,was disfellowshiped,shunned by the congregation and my Mom divorced him.I know we are all sinners but all I can think about is all his big talk and how he bashed all other religions and preachers of God's word.As long as were coping and pasting I have one of my own.


http://wit.irr.org/four-dangers-of-jehovahs-witnesses
Just glad I don't have to earn my salvation cause I'd never make it.Thank you Jesus!!!!!!!


----------



## Will Galen

hobbs27 said:


> Will Galen,
> You have answered my questions with a response that no one is interested in that. I can understand that, but you're not going to gain anyone's interest by copy and paste propaganda right out of the watchtower publication.



Since I haven’t been copying and pasting articles out of our publications, I don’t believe I’ll ever get a better compliment to my writing, I truly thank you!



> You need to engage in the discussions.



As I said in my first post, #267, I quote, “After reading all these stories about what people believe about Jehovah’s Witnesses, I must say a lot of what is said about our beliefs isn’t accurate.”

Thus I’m not going to be in engaging in discussions about whether our beliefs are right or wrong with people that have already made up their mind. Such discussions are a waste of time since they don’t change anyone’s mind and most often turn into heated arguments. 

I’m only interested in posting what Jehovah’s Witnesses actually believe to clear up misconceptions. With accurate information I believe people can decide for themselves whether they agree with it or not.

I endeavor to do that with posts like the ones on Christmas and blood transfusions, etc. Post counts show people are interested.

Good Day!


----------



## hobbs27

Will Galen said:


> Since I haven’t been copying and pasting articles out of our publications, I don’t believe I’ll every get a better compliment to my writing, I truly thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> As I said in my first post, #267, I quote, “After reading all these stories about what people believe about Jehovah’s Witnesses, I must say a lot of what is said about our beliefs isn’t accurate.”
> 
> Thus I’m not going to be in engaging in discussions about whether our beliefs are right or wrong with people that have already made up their mind. Such discussions are a waste of time since they don’t change anyone’s mind and most often turn into heated arguments.
> 
> I’m only interested in posting what Jehovah’s Witnesses actually believe to clear up misconceptions. With accurate information I believe people can decide for themselves whether they agree with it or not.
> 
> I endeavor to do that with posts like the ones on Christmas and blood transfusions, etc. Post counts show people are interested.
> 
> Good Day!



Have a very Merry Christmas!


----------



## j_seph

Will Galen said:


> 1 Peter 3:15 says, But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect.


How did the above get derived from <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>But  sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an  answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you  with meekness and fear:


----------



## Will Galen

j_seph said:


> How did the above get derived from <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>But  sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an  answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you  with meekness and fear:



The above quote of 1st Peter 3:15 from The New World Translation wasn’t derived from the King James Bible that you quoted from.  Both Bibles were translated from copies of the original Hebrew and Greek languages the Bible was written in. So the text in both Bible’s is derived from those original languages not from one another.

What I think you want to know is why the difference in language?

One reason is obviously because they had different translators living 400 years apart. [1611 versus 2013] Another reason is because of the sheer amount of words an English Bible translator has to pick from.

The number of words in the English language is estimated by the Global Language Monitor to be over one million. Whereas French for example has about 100,000 words.

The reason for so many different Bible translations is because languages change over time. Let’s look at how different Bibles translate 1st Peter 3:15.

(1 Peter 3:15) New World Translation
But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect.

(1 Peter 3:15) King James Version
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

(1 Peter 3:15) American Standard Version
But sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: [being] ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear:

(1 Peter 3:15) The Bible in Basic English
But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

(1 Peter 3:15) Common English Bible
Instead, regard Christ as holy in your hearts. Whenever anyone asks you to speak of your hope, be ready to defend it. Yet do this with respectful humility, maintaining a good conscience.

(1 Peter 3:15) The Complete Jewish Bible
But treat the Messiah as holy, as Lord in your hearts;s while remaining always ready to give a reasoned answer to anyone who asks you to explain the hope you have in you - yet with humility and fear,

(1 Peter 3:15) English Standard Version
but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

(1 Peter 3:15) God’s Word Translation
But dedicate your lives to Christ as Lord. Always be ready to defend your confidence [in God] when anyone asks you to explain it. However, make your defense with gentleness and respect.

(1 Peter 3:15) Jubilee Bible 2000
but sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready always to respond to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and reverence,

(1 Peter 3:15) The Message Bible
Through thick and thin, keep your hearts at attention, in adoration before Christ, your Master. Be ready to speak up and tell anyone who asks why you're living the way you are, and always with the utmost courtesy.

(1 Peter 3:15) New International Version
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

(1 Peter 3:15) Revised Standard Version
but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;

As you can see English Bible translators translate this text quite differently from one another, but they are all saying much the same thing. Personally I like having so many different translations, that’s why I have about 20 different English translations in my own library. 

It’s good to have so many different translations. That way if you don’t understand a particular Bible passage you can look it up in different Bibles and maybe get a better understanding. 

Here’s something I wrote previously about the Bible that I think most Christians might enjoy.

The Bible

It’s been reported that there have been over 6,000,000,000 bibles printed. One online encyclopedia says there are over 41,000 Christian denominations. Considering those two numbers, the amount of belief to place in the bible is a question most people consider sometime in their life.

A good number of people decide the answer to that question based on what they have heard, either from their family, their friends, or from the news media. Nowadays they may even decide their belief in the bible based on what the Internet has to say.	

Despite whatever people have to say about it, the bible itself says it’s inspired of God. (2 Timothy 3:16-17) says, All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

Notice it says ‘All scripture is inspired.’

The bible also tells us why it was written, and it gives everlasting life as a possibility.

(Roman’s 15:4) For everything that was written long ago was written to instruct us, so that we might have hope through the endurance and encouragement that the Scriptures give us.

(John 20:31) But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.

(John 3:17) For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.

(John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

Despite the bible saying it is inspired of God and written for our instruction, and despite it promising everlasting life, the question arises, if the bible is really from God, how come so many disparage it? Meaning, belittle, minimize, downplay, discount, and downgrade it? 

Ask yourself this question, “How many religions did Christ Jesus start? Now compare that with the number of denominations reported. (41,000) With so many denominations teaching conflicting doctrines which all reportedly come from the same bible, it’s no wonder the bible gets disparaged.

For example, some denominations believe everything was created in 6 days. (God rested on the 7th) They believe that each day was a 24 hour period, despite evidence to the contrary. What that belief does is conflict with known science, bringing disparagement on all denominations.

However, regardless of how men interpret the bible, if the bible is inspired by God and is really his instructions for mankind it should hold up under a close examination.

At Isaiah 55:11 God says, “. . . so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it.”

Since the Bible is God’s word, and since God has intended the bible for mankind’s instruction, and since he says his word will have certain success, what are the results after all these years? 

Despite bible burnings, and the clergy’s efforts to keep the bible out of the common people’s hands, the results show God’s backing. The bible is both the world’s most widely translated book—parts of it being available in over 2,400 languages. And as referred to above, the best-selling book of all time with more than six billion copies printed.

How we got the bible.

The bible was started by Moses who was given the Ten Commandments and instructed by God to write them and other commandments and instructions down in a book. Exodus 17:14 says, “Write down for yourself these words, because it is in accordance with these words that I do conclude a covenant with you and Israel.”

After Moses, God used men from all walks of life, such as Joshua a general, Samuel a judge, David a king, Daniel a prime minister, Ezra a scribe, Nehemiah a court official, Amos a herdsman and Jeremiah a prophet. 

They confessed that the thoughts they wrote were not of their own origin. David said at 2 Samuel 23:2, “The spirit of Jehovah it was that spoke by me, and his word was upon my tongue.”

Most of the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, but a few chapters were recorded in Aramaic. The New Testament was written entirely in Greek. The original Bible writings were handwritten on perishable materials such as papyrus and vellum. Since they didn't last long, copies were always being made.

Hebrew scribes, called masoretes exercised great care to transmit the text accurately. The had all kinds of ways to check for accuracy, and they even counted every letter of the Bible in order to ensure accurate copying.

Translating the Bible

To make the Scriptures available in other languages, Bible translation became necessary. Bible translators today generally use original-language master texts to produce modern translations.

What’s a master text? To illustrate, if 100 people copied for example, the novel War and Peace, no matter how diligent they were, some would make mistakes. If you took one of those 100 copies at random, you might get one with a mistake in it. However if you compared all 100 copies, you could find any and all mistakes, because everyone wouldn’t make the same mistakes. Thus you could make a error free master text, or copy.	

Today there are thousands of copies of the Old Testament in it’s original Hebrew language, and there are tens of thousands of copies of the New Testament in the Greek language. Modern translators have compared these copies and produced master texts in which to translate from.

The bibles language is simple and easy to understand.  God has represented invisible things by using typical representations that the mind of man can comprehend. 

For example: God is a spirit, so he does not literally sit on a throne like chair in heaven. However, God expresses himself by using such symbols to convey understanding.  An example is found at Daniel the seventh chapter where Daniel relates a vision.

(Daniel 7:9) “I kept on beholding until there were thrones placed and the Ancient of Days sat down. His clothing was white just like snow, and the hair of his head was like clean wool. His throne was flames of fire; its wheels were a burning fire. 10There was a stream of fire flowing and going out from before him. There were a thousand thousands that kept ministering to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand that kept standing right before him. The Court took its seat, and there were books that were opened.” 

Since the Bible has been written in these down-to-earth, easily understandable terms, it is possible to translate it clearly and accurately into most languages. The original power and force of truth are preserved in all translations. 

My favorite example is (Zechariah 2:8) where God says . . .” for he that is touching YOU is touching my eyeball.” That scripture shows how intensely God feels about anyone touching his people, to him it's like they are touching his eyeball. Everyone can understand how much it would bother someone to touch their eyeball. That should come though especially clear in any language! 

Of course saying the bible is translated right is one thing, proving it is another. But it’s easy to prove.

Paraphrasing a free online encyclopedia, There's over 450 versions of the Bible.

Why so many versions? Because language changes over time, a good example is the above where Wikipedia talks about Old English, and Middle English.

But the point is, all you have to do is compare the various translations and you quickly see that the translations are saying the same thing, only in different words. With so many translations saying the same thing how can anyone say the bible can’t be translated correctly? For example read these translation comparisons of 1Corinthians 10:25.

New International Version (©1984)
Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience,

New Living Translation (©2007)
So you may eat any meat that is sold in the marketplace without raising questions of conscience.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience' sake;

International Standard Version (©2008)
Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without raising any question about it on the grounds of conscience,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Eat anything that is sold in the market without letting your conscience trouble you.

King James Bible
Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

American King James Version
Whatever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

American Standard Version
Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, eat, asking no question for conscience'sake,

Bible in Basic English
Whatever meat may be had at the public market, take as food without question of right or wrong;

Douay-Rheims Bible
Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, eat; asking no question for conscience' sake.

Notice the older bibles use the word shambles instead of meat market. Most people today would use the word shambles to describe what their children do to their rooms. However in comparing bibles you see they are all conveying the same idea. But you do have to know what is being talked about to understand what is said.

Good day!


----------



## Artfuldodger

Biblehub.com is another good sight to read the various translations.
I too have trouble reading just one and like to compare all of them.

One difference I have from most of you guys is I don't have a denomination that tells me what to do and how to believe with covenants, statements of faith, etc.

I was raised a Baptist but removed those goggles to see the Word in a Light revealed to me in a new way.

Merry Christmas!

"Holy peppermint stick Batman!"


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> Biblehub.com is another good sight to read the various translations.
> I too have trouble reading just one and like to compare all of them.
> 
> One difference I have from most of you guys is I don't have a denomination that tells me what to do and how to believe with covenants, statements of faith, etc.
> 
> I was raised a Baptist but removed those goggles to see the Word in a Light revealed to me in a new way.
> 
> Merry Christmas!
> 
> "Holy peppermint stick Batman!"


It is surprising to me how long it took me to deprogram all that I had been told.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

I would like to revisit the blood issue. There is no way that the writers ever had any idea that man would one day be able to determine blood types, compatible blood types, or imagine transfusions, or the need for transfusions. Context is everything. There will be nowhere in our bible that the context is about transfusion. It is all about ingesting blood. So how can you defend this long held tradition knowing that the context does not support this? I think I said it, "long held tradition". So anything outside of context is pure speculation.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

You will not get him to discuss the blood issue any more with you.  As he said in an earlier post, "Thus I’m not going to be in engaging in discussions about whether our beliefs are right or wrong with people that have already made up their mind. Such discussions are a waste of time since they don’t change anyone’s mind and most often turn into heated arguments."

This is the dodge that JW's are taught when they can't defend their believes with scripture.  The next dodge will be that he sees no reason "to cast his pearls before swine" .  You see, he believes that his beliefs and thoughts are pearls of wisdom, and you and your thoughts are "swine" or unclean.

I have had this discussion with JW's in the past, and the conversation always goes through this process when they are pushed to explain a doctrine that scripture is clearly against them.  Example John 1:1


----------



## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> I would like to revisit the blood issue. There is no way that the writers ever had any idea that man would one day be able to determine blood types, compatible blood types, or imagine transfusions, or the need for transfusions. Context is everything. There will be nowhere in our bible that the context is about transfusion. It is all about ingesting blood. So how can you defend this long held tradition knowing that the context does not support this? I think I said it, "long held tradition". So anything outside of context is pure speculation.



We can discuss it without him. Blood was once thought to be the genetic carrier. The Heart was once thought to be the center of one's mind. 
The Bible is the Word of God. Why didn't God know? He did and only revealed to man in terms he understood of the day.
Blood has always been important in Christianity. God likes blood. Blood was sacred. Salvation took the blood of Christ.
Why blood instead of the digestive system or brain activity?
Life takes more than blood yet back in the day they understood if you drain the blood out of something it dies.
Death could come just as easily if you took all of the water out of the living being. 
Yet blood was the all important part that we associate life with. 
God knew that one day man would give each other blood and body parts. When the Bible was written he didn't inform his scribes about this and other new world discoveries, letting us learn as we go.

Just another reason to move past works and discover grace.


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> I have had this discussion with JW's in the past, and the conversation always goes through this process when they are pushed to explain a doctrine that scripture is clearly against them.  Example John 1:1



Why couldn't the "Word" in John 1:1 be the Holy Spirit?


----------



## NE GA Pappy

because in John 1:2 it says the Word became flesh....

they don't argue that John 1:1 is speaking of Jesus.  The following verses reveal the only one the writer could have been describing


----------



## Artfuldodger

When Trinitarian's read "God" in scripture, they think of the Father.
Oneness think of Jesus because God became Jesus. The Word became flesh. Is there a verse where once the Word became flesh as in Jesus, he returned to being the Father or did he stay One as in Jesus?
If Jesus was with God from the beginning, then so was the Holy Spirit. If this was more then being in God's mind or word, then the Holy Spirit was with God from the beginning. If so then John 1:1 could be the Holy Spirit becoming the Word. 

Reading  John 1:1 really depends on one's indoctrination as a Trinitarian or Monotheist. 
Oneness see the Word as in God's mind in John 1:1 becoming Jesus only when He was born of flesh. The word became flesh.

So when we read or talk of God, who do we see? I see only one God, the Father of Jesus his son undivided and not separated.
One and unified with his Son and his Holy Spirit.
If have seen Jesus, you have seen his Father. 
Unity, I in you and you in me. God in all.


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> because in John 1:2 it says the Word became flesh....
> 
> they don't argue that John 1:1 is speaking of Jesus.  The following verses reveal the only one the writer could have been describing



The Word did become flesh but not in verse 2. Verse 2 explains He was in the beginning with God.
The Word does become flesh in verse 14. God working out of time created the world through Jesus and for Jesus. It was his plan or Word. Jesus was this Word. 
He came for those who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Word was made flesh.

Why can't the Word be the Holy Spirit?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Here is a good question for our JW brothers;

1 John 5:6-8
6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

Who or what is the Spirit, water, and blood?
Well anyone who has an answer.
Hey, we're back to blood.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Here is a good question for our JW brothers;
> 
> 1 John 5:6-8
> 6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
> 
> Who or what is the Spirit, water, and blood?
> Well anyone who has an answer.
> Hey, we're back to blood.



Art, you can go to JW.org and get any of the answers will is going to have. They are taught that they all must be 100% in agreement, so their answers are programmed.

 It's not productive to discuss these topics with a JW that's not willing to engage in thoughtful discussion.

 His religion cannot defend their interpretation of Matthew 24 and I've proven that over and over with their elders...They actually believe the great tribulation came at WW1 era.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Artfuldodger said:


> The Word did become flesh but not in verse 2. Verse 2 explains He was in the beginning with God.
> The Word does become flesh in verse 14. God working out of time created the world through Jesus and for Jesus. It was his plan or Word. Jesus was this Word.
> He came for those who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
> The Word was made flesh.
> 
> Why can't the Word be the Holy Spirit?



just show me in scripture where the Spirit became flesh, and we are good.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> Here is a good question for our JW brothers;
> 
> 1 John 5:6-8
> 6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
> 
> Who or what is the Spirit, water, and blood?
> Well anyone who has an answer.
> Hey, we're back to blood.


This is a play on the OT story of "if they don't believe I sent you then turn the water into blood" When Jesus was stabbed , water and blood flowed. This is now the Spirit testifying that Jesus is the one who was sent


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> just show me in scripture where the Spirit became flesh, and we are good.



John 3:6
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Wasn't God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit eternal and always with  each of the three distinct but equal entities?


----------



## obligated

They actually believe the great tribulation came at WW1 era.

The watchtower preached that 1914 was when Christ came into power and that generation would not pass before judgement day.False prophets.Jesus Christ the son of Jehovah or Yahweh didnt know the time of the end!So how would some arrogant,ignorant New York elitest know?


----------



## hobbs27

obligated said:


> They actually believe the great tribulation came at WW1 era.
> 
> The watchtower preached that 1914 was when Christ came into power and that generation would not pass before judgement day.False prophets.Jesus Christ the son of Jehovah or Yahweh didnt know the time of the end!So how would some arrogant,ignorant New York elitest know?



True. While Jesus didn't know the day nor the hour..He did know and gave signs of His coming...within that generation.


----------



## obligated

hobbs27 said:


> True. While Jesus didn't know the day nor the hour..He did know and gave signs of His coming...within that generation.



Im sure new books or brochures will be printed to clarify their new "truth"on the date.


----------



## hobbs27

obligated said:


> Im sure new books or brochures will be printed to clarify their new "truth"on the date.



Their eschatology is the weakest of all faiths I have seen. They are quite accustomed to revising their theology.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Artfuldodger said:


> John 3:6
> Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
> 
> Wasn't God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit eternal and always with  each of the three distinct but equal entities?



Kinda cooked your own goose there didn't you?

John 1:14 was the exact scripture I was referring to in my earlier post. sorry.  

the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us. John spoke of him and said he ranked above him because He came before him.  

I don't remember the Spirit dwelling in the flesh any where on earth.


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> Kinda cooked your own goose there didn't you?
> 
> John 1:14 was the exact scripture I was referring to in my earlier post. sorry.
> 
> the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us. John spoke of him and said he ranked above him because He came before him.
> 
> I don't remember the Spirit dwelling in the flesh any where on earth.



It all depends on how one views God's unity. God knew me before creation. Does that make me eternal?
In what capacity was I before creation? I was made in God's image. As a child of God I possess something spiritual. What is born of the Spirit is spirit.

When we look at God's unity we see the Spirit in John 1:1. God is a spirit. The Word became flesh. Before that time the Word was Spirit. You see Jesus as an eternal entity of the Godhead before his incarnation. I'm assuming you believe the Holy Spirit is also a distinct but equal eternal entity of the Godhead. In that respect he was with God the Father and God the Son in John 1:1. He was also a part of the Word as the three can't be separated.
Oneness believe Jesus didn't exist before the incarnation except in Word. Oneness believe God incarnated into flesh. They believe God the Father became God the Son.
There are many ways of looking at God's unity.

As a child of God I became "of the Spirit." Eventually I will see Jesus as he truly is because I will become like him.

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

I think we all kinda see some sort of a Unity within the Oneness of God. Perhaps even Trinitarians.


----------



## Will Galen

1gr8bldr said:


> I would like to revisit the blood issue. There is no way that the writers ever had any idea that man would one day be able to determine blood types, compatible blood types, or imagine transfusions, or the need for transfusions.



I agree the men who wrote the Bible couldn’t know what would happen in the future. However, the men who actually put pen to ink and wrote on scrolls were writing what God directed. Thus God is the author of the Bible, and what is written in the Bible are God’s words, not men’s.

The apostle Paul says at 1 Thessalonians 2:13, “Indeed, that is why we also thank God unceasingly, because when you received God’s word, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God, which is also at work in you believers.”

Note, 2 Timothy 3:16, says, “All Scripture is inspired of God . . .”

What does it mean to be inspired of God? Second Peter 1:21 answers, “For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.”

What does being moved by holy spirit mean? Note the following scriptures.
(2 Samuel 23:2, King David speaking) “The spirit of Jehovah spoke through me; His word was on my tongue.”

(Acts 1:16, The Apostle Peter speaking)  “Men, brothers, it was necessary for the scripture to be fulfilled that the holy spirit spoke prophetically through David about Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

(Acts 28:25, The Apostle Paul speaking) “So because they disagreed with one another, they began to leave, and Paul made this one comment: “The holy spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your forefathers.”

So we see from the above scriptures that it’s never mattered that the ‘penmen’ couldn’t see the future. God is truly the author of the Bible. His spirit directed it’s writing. 

As for the blood issue, remember Acts 15:6 tells us that the apostles and the elders gathered together to look into this matter. What did they decide?

We find that it wasn’t just their decision. Acts 15:28, 29 says, “For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

We can see the Holy Spirit was foremost in their decision by Peter’s words, “For the holy spirit AND . . . we ourselves have favored . . .” In other words the Holy Spirit made it's decision AND the apostles and older men made the same decision no doubt led by the spirit.

Thus, as you can see from the above scriptures, Bible writers were directed in what to say by the Holy Spirit, and the apostles and older men were also directed by the Holy Spirit in their decision. So in the latter case it doesn’t matter that they couldn’t foresee transfusions.



> Context is everything. There will be nowhere in our bible that the context is about transfusion. It is all about ingesting blood. So how can you defend this long held tradition knowing that the context does not support this? I think I said it, "long held tradition". So anything outside of context is pure speculation.



Actually the context is not about ingesting blood, it’s about abstaining from blood. (And of course other necessary things)

The word used in the original Greek text at Acts 15:29 is (Apechesthai) which means to hold oneself off, to refrain, or abstain. Dictionary's define Abstain as to hold oneself back voluntarily from improper or unhealthy things.

Thus most Bibles use the word abstain at Acts 15:29, some examples.

(ASV) abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood,

(CJB) abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood,

(DBY) abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, 

(ESV) abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, 

(HNV) abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood,

(NAS) abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood,

Clearly, the apostles and older men were led to discern that blood is sacred and viewed ‘abstaining from blood’ to be as morally vital as abstaining from sexual immorality or idol worship. This proves that the prohibition about blood is serious.

God first gave the blood prohibition to Noah and his family, saying, (Genesis 9:4) “Only flesh with its life—its blood—you must not eat.”

God repeated the prohibition to the Israelite's more than once. 

(Leviticus 7:26) “‘You must not eat any blood in any of your dwelling places, whether that of birds or that of animals.

(Deuteronomy 12:23) Just be firmly resolved not to eat the blood, because the blood is the life, and you must not eat the life with the flesh.

(Leviticus 17:10) “‘If any man of the house of Israel or any foreigner who is residing in your midst eats any sort of blood, I will certainly set my face against the one who is eating the blood, and I will cut him off from among his people.

We see from the above scripture God was deadly serious about the use of blood. He said he would cut some one off that eats any sort of blood. Cutting off didn’t mean banishment, it meant their death.

In Leviticus 17:11,12, God not only told the Israelite's to abstain from blood, he told them why. God said, “The soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I myself have put it upon the altar for you to make atonement for your souls, because it is the blood that makes atonement by the soul in it. That is why I have said to the sons of Israel: ‘No soul of you must eat blood and no alien resident who is residing as an alien in your midst should eat blood.’” 

The Israelite's sacrificed animals to atone for their sins, because as God says, “it is the blood that makes atonement by the soul in it.” So blood was viewed as sacred. So all those animal sacrifices under the Mosaic Law foreshadowed the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Heb. 9:11-14,22 says, “When Christ came as a high priest . . . he entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us. For if the blood of goats and of bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who have been defiled sanctifies to the extent of cleanness of the flesh, how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works that we may render sacred service to the living God? " 

So again we see blood is sacred. Hebrews 9:22 says, “Yes, according to the Law nearly all things are cleansed with blood, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place.”

Note the scripture says, “Unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place.”

Even if the blood wasn’t from a sacrificed animal or Bird, the instructions were to pour it out on the ground. Leviticus 17:13 says, “‘If one of the Israelite's or some foreigner who is residing in your midst is hunting and catches a wild animal or a bird that may be eaten, he must pour its blood out and cover it with dust.

(Deuteronomy 12:16) But you must not eat the blood; you should pour it out on the ground like water.

Paraphrasing a Bible scholar,  No blood was eaten under the law, because it was shed for sins, as for Christians, blood should not be eaten because it represents the blood shed for sins.

Thus only the sacrificial use of blood has ever been approved, otherwise it was to be poured out on the ground.

Jehovah’s Witnesses expect to be ridiculed for abstaining from blood, but God was clearly deadly serious about how he wanted blood used, and even though blood transfusions technically aren’t eating blood, we believe God’s intent was clear, and made even clearer when he used the word ‘abstain’ from blood. You can’t have a blood transfusion and say you are abstaining from blood.

Good Day!


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Will Galen said:


> I agree the men who wrote the Bible couldnâ€™t know what would happen in the future. However, the men who actually put pen to ink and wrote on scrolls were writing what God directed. Thus God is the author of the Bible, and what is written in the Bible are Godâ€™s words, not menâ€™s.
> 
> The apostle Paul says at 1 Thessalonians 2:13, â€œIndeed, that is why we also thank God unceasingly, because when you received Godâ€™s word, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God, which is also at work in you believers.â€�
> 
> Note, 2 Timothy 3:16, says, â€œAll Scripture is inspired of God . . .â€�
> 
> What does it mean to be inspired of God? Second Peter 1:21 answers, â€œFor prophecy was at no time brought by manâ€™s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.â€�
> 
> What does being moved by holy spirit mean? Note the following scriptures.
> (2 Samuel 23:2, King David speaking) â€œThe spirit of Jehovah spoke through me; His word was on my tongue.â€�
> 
> (Acts 1:16, The Apostle Peter speaking)  â€œMen, brothers, it was necessary for the scripture to be fulfilled that the holy spirit spoke prophetically through David about Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.
> 
> (Acts 28:25, The Apostle Paul speaking) â€œSo because they disagreed with one another, they began to leave, and Paul made this one comment: â€œThe holy spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your forefathers.â€�
> 
> So we see from the above scriptures that itâ€™s never mattered that the â€˜penmenâ€™ couldnâ€™t see the future. God is truly the author of the Bible. His spirit directed itâ€™s writing.
> 
> As for the blood issue, remember Acts 15:6 tells us that the apostles and the elders gathered together to look into this matter. What did they decide?
> 
> We find that it wasnâ€™t just their decision. Acts 15:28, 29 says, â€œFor the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality.â€�
> 
> We can see the Holy Spirit was foremost in their decision by Peterâ€™s words, â€œFor the holy spirit AND . . . we ourselves have favored . . .â€� In other words the Holy Spirit made it's decision AND the apostles and older men made the same decision no doubt led by the spirit.
> 
> Thus, as you can see from the above scriptures, Bible writers were directed in what to say by the Holy Spirit, and the apostles and older men were also directed by the Holy Spirit in their decision. So in the latter case it doesnâ€™t matter that they couldnâ€™t foresee transfusions.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the context is not about ingesting blood, itâ€™s about abstaining from blood. (And of course other necessary things)
> 
> The word used in the original Greek text at Acts 15:29 is (Apechesthai) which means Abstain. Strongs Concordence gives it the number 567, and says it means: (to hold oneself off; Le, refrain; abstain)
> 
> The Online Dictionary defines Abstain as; to hold oneself back voluntarily, especially from something regarded as improper or unhealthy.
> 
> Thus most Bibles use the word abstain at Acts 15:29, some examples.
> 
> (ASV) that ye abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood,
> 
> (CJB) to abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood,
> 
> (DBY) to abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood,
> 
> (ESV) that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood,
> 
> (HNV) that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood,
> 
> (NAS) that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood,
> 
> Clearly, the apostles and older men were led to discern that blood is sacred and viewed â€˜abstaining from bloodâ€™ to be as morally vital as abstaining from sexual immorality or idol worship. This proves that the prohibition about blood is serious.
> 
> God first gave the blood prohibition to Noah and his family, saying, (Genesis 9:4) â€œOnly flesh with its lifeâ€”its bloodâ€”you must not eat.â€�
> 
> God repeated the prohibition to the Israelites more than once.
> 
> (Leviticus 7:26) â€œâ€˜You must not eat any blood in any of your dwelling places, whether that of birds or that of animals.
> 
> (Deuteronomy 12:23) Just be firmly resolved not to eat the blood, because the blood is the life, and you must not eat the life with the flesh.
> 
> (Leviticus 17:10) â€œâ€˜If any man of the house of Israel or any foreigner who is residing in your midst eats any sort of blood, I will certainly set my face against the one who is eating the blood, and I will cut him off from among his people.
> 
> We see from the above scripture God was deadly serious about the use of blood. He said he would cut some one off that eats any sort of blood. Cutting off didnâ€™t mean banishment, it meant their death.
> 
> Cutting Off
> In Israel, when used regarding a punishment for violation of the Law, it meant a cutting off in death. Some rabbinic scholars believe that it merely constituted expulsion from the congregation of Israel, though they differ widely in opinion.
> 
> By examining the Scripture texts naming the offenses for which this punishment is prescribed, it can be determined that it has reference to the death penalty, executed either by the authorities in Israel or by God himself. The crimes for which cutting off are prescribed are those of a most serious nature.
> 
> They include disrespect of Jehovah (Israelâ€™s God and King), idolatry, child sacrifice, spiritism, desecration of sacred things, and such disgusting practices as incest, bestiality, and sodomy. In some instances the death penalty is specifically mentioned in connection with the offense for which â€˜cutting offâ€™ is decreed as the sanction.â€”Ex 31:14; Le 7:27; 18:6, 22, 23, 29; 20:3-6; 22:3, 4,9; 23:28-30; Nu 4:15, 18, 20; 15:30, 31; see also Ex 30:31-33,38.
> 
> Jesus used the expression in setting out the punishment for the symbolic â€œgoatsâ€�: â€œThese will depart into everlasting cutting-off [Gr., koÊ¹la·sin; literally, â€œlopping off; pruningâ€�], but the righteous ones into everlasting life.â€� (Mt 25:46) Here the contrast is between life and death.  it-1 pp. 562-563 Cutting Off
> 
> In Leviticus 17:11,12, God not only told the Israelites to abstain from blood, he told them why. God said, â€œThe soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I myself have put it upon the altar for you to make atonement for your souls, because it is the blood that makes atonement by the soul in it. That is why I have said to the sons of Israel: â€˜No soul of you must eat blood and no alien resident who is residing as an alien in your midst should eat blood.â€™â€�
> 
> The Israelites sacrificed animals to atone for their sins, because as God says, â€œit is the blood that makes atonement by the soul in it.â€� So blood was viewed as sacred. So all those animal sacrifices under the Mosaic Law foreshadowed the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
> 
> Heb. 9:11-14,22says, â€œWhen Christ came as a high priest . . . he entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us. For if the blood of goats and of bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who have been defiled sanctifies to the extent of cleanness of the flesh, how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works that we may render sacred service to the living God? "
> 
> So again we see blood is sacred. Hebrews 9:22 says, â€œYes, according to the Law nearly all things are cleansed with blood, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place.â€�
> 
> Note the scripture says, â€œUnless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place.â€�
> 
> Even if the blood wasnâ€™t from a sacrificed animal or Bird, the instructions were to pour it out on the ground. Leviticus 17:13 says, â€œâ€˜If one of the Israelites or some foreigner who is residing in your midst is hunting and catches a wild animal or a bird that may be eaten, he must pour its blood out and cover it with dust.
> 
> (Deuteronomy 12:16) But you must not eat the blood; you should pour it out on the ground like water.
> 
> Nineteenth-century Bible scholar Adam Clarke wrote: â€œThis command [to Noah] is still scrupulously obeyed by the oriental Christians . . . No blood was eaten under the law, because it pointed out the blood that was to be shed for the sin of the world; and under the Gospel it should not be eaten, because it should ever be considered as representing the blood which has been shed for the remission of sins.
> 
> Only the sacrificial use of blood has ever been approved, otherwise it was to be poured out on the ground.
> 
> Jehovahâ€™s Witnesses expect to be ridiculed for abstaining from blood, but God was clearly deadly serious about how he wanted blood used, and even though blood transfusions technically arenâ€™t eating blood, we believe Godâ€™s intent was clear, and made even clearer when he used the word â€˜abstainâ€™ from blood. You canâ€™t have a blood transfusion and say you are abstaining from blood.
> 
> Good Day!


I appreciate the dialog and the work you put into your responses. I will have to respect your answer on the grounds that your interpretation is based on much study and knowledge of the scriptures. I always respect this. However, so you know a little about me and my inquisitive nature, I don't respect a mom and pop religion where one fights for what he believes and has never even read the bible that his faith is based on. Most here at GON who post have a reasonable amount of biblical knowledge so that they can interpret as they see fit. I differ from most in the "inspiration" of the Holy Spirit. Where most see it as the very words of God, I do not, but do find inspiration from God in the words of men who were inspired by the HS to record what they knew and understood about the faith they relied upon. From their writings, [NT] I can see what it is that they believed. I feel that if  it were the very words of God, it would be without mistake or contradiction. I do find more inspiration in the OT in the context of the stories, not so much every word. My view allows me  the freedom of the NT to not be a law. Those whom claim it as the very words of God don't realize that they set themselves up, unknowingly, as guilty of not following God's word. With this view, they have no right to pick and choose from what he has said. Example, Paul says to "greet each other with a holy kiss". If the bible is the words of God then who are we to say this no longer applies. The NT is full of this type of wording that has been superceeded by our own opinion. So, I realize that I am just airing an opinion, in hopes that more dialog will result from it. Not by any means trying to agitate anyone, but trying to spur comments because I find everyone's opinions enlightening. And... would like to point out that this for me is just something to do rather than watch TV. Not like I am expecting a response.... unless you or others find yourself with nothing fun to do elsewhere


----------



## obligated

So if any partaking of blood is wrong then the watctchtower corporation is wrong on its view on blood fractions biblically?The bible also mentions not charging interest to your brothers yet RBC does work on kingdom halls and charges a fee with interest to the congregation.Poor congregation I went to was saddled with a debt they couldnt afford despite brothers offering their services for free to renovate.Scammers from New York came in and closed the hall,renovated and removed new carpet and other items and then sent a bill.So loving of them!A Godly organization doesnt fleece the flock and seek Real Estate riches and lie to protect its assets.If they had faith in Jehovah they would have told the TRUTH in court.If they were Gods organization they would have expelled the pedophiles and consoled the victims and their families.They chose to lie and deny.By their fruits(and they have a lot of "fruits")you will be judged.If theyb were gods organization they would stick to the bible and not claim that without the watchtower corporation nobody could get to know gods word correctly.Liars and scammers from New York.Instead of being ashamed and changing their ways they lie and deny.Judgement day wont be good for liars,thieves,pedophiles,CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored,blood guilty,and the others listed as not inheriting the kingdom.Sleep well think of that scumbags!


----------



## Artfuldodger

How do JW's view eating cooked meat in hamburgers or fried chicken? If eating cooked meat is ok then so is eating blood pudding or blood wurst. I see no justification other than becoming a vegan. Unless plants have a type of green blood we must abstain from.

Does the JW organization allow transfusions of blood parts such as platelets or plasma?
Is it possible the blood we should abstain from is the blood of the strangled animals polluted by idols?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Must one abstain from a transfusion of his own stored blood? What about kidney dialysis, where a person’s blood is temporarily removed, treated, and returned? 
I guess each individual can justify what "abstaining" means. Define "abstain." Define "blood;" whole blood, blood factors, cooked blood, green blood, one's own blood?

Things like this and others Gr8bldr was relating too is why we shouldn't make "works" a part of salvation. This and all of the other things we as men feel one has to believe in order to receive God's free gift of grace.
None of us is gonna make it under that "plan." You can live by that plan if you want to but you will also be judged under that "plan."


----------



## Will Galen

I like answering questions on Jehovah's Witnesses, but I like my answers to be thorough too, so I do a lot of searching and checking. As a typist I hunt and peck so if you are the same you know the posts I have making are time consuming.

Thus I haven't got the time to answer all the questions you guys come up with, let alone just your questions on blood. 

I've covered our scriptural theology on blood, but if you want technical answers on the blood issue, 

http://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=blood

is the place for you to go to get your answers. 

When I go to the doctor I don't remember much of whats said, any medical terms being used are basically forgotten as soon as I leave the examination room, that's why they always give me written directions. 

The truth about me is I'm really dense when it comes to medical terms and jargon. Thus I'm not qualified to give anyone an answer to a technical question which I probably wouldn't really understand, and thus an answer that may or may not be right.

The site even has videos for those who would understand them and are so inclined.

Good day!


----------



## Artfuldodger

I can't help but imagine what Denomination we'd all be if each and every one of us was born on a deserted island and found a Bible. 
Well maybe 10 different translations with no influence from man.

Imagine a world without religion, just salvation from God's grace.

Imagine the freedom from sin one could have without religion getting in the way.


----------



## Will Galen

I have removed my post explaining why Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas. Why? 



hobbs27 said:


> Will Galen,
> you're not going to gain anyone's interest by copy and paste propaganda right out of the watchtower publication.



I replied to his post.



Will Galen said:


> Since I haven’t been copying and pasting articles out of our publications, I don’t believe I’ll every get a better compliment to my writing, I truly thank you!



After thinking about it I realized I had posted 'quotes' out of Watchtower publications. I do that all the time. The Christmas article was written for another site that allows quotes. Being the kind of article it was, it was full of quotes, from both Watchtower publications and other publications. I then went back and reread the rules of this site which prohibit direct quotes. 

Thus I removed the post about Christmas. I've also been going over the other posts I've written and editing them, because some of them had also been written for another site and also had quotes.

I'm glad I haven't written a lot of posts, because I do a lot of quoting.

Good day!


----------



## hobbs27

Will, I'm not sure what rules you are speaking of. My point is this, I would like to hear from you, engage you on scripture and meaning, not JW.org

 I have a few friends on another site that will engage , * very few JW's * will do this, but I respect the few that will.
 One in particular engaged me on MT. 24 only to become very angry and erase every one of his comments and then block me. Others stepped in and while they could not defend the Eschatology of the JWs we did have a very respectful discussion on the scriptures and the context .


----------



## Will Galen

hobbs27 said:


> Will, I'm not sure what rules you are speaking of.



Under Forum Rules and Guidelines it says:
-----
Copyrighted Material 
Although many sites allow sharing and reposting of their content elsewhere on the web many other sites do not and are aggressive in protecting their copyrighted material. Since it is impossible to sort out who allows republishing of copyrighted material and who doesn't, consider any published material on other websites to be copyrighted and you may not post it here. 

You may post a link to the other site and its' content.
-----

Jehovah's Witnesses respect rules and we follow them. Thus I'm going to follow this sites rules. 



> My point is this, I would like to hear from you, engage you on scripture and meaning, not JW.org



You're not understanding Jehovah's Witnesses. We really believe the Bible is the word of God and we strive to obey it. 

The Bible says at 1 Corinthians 1:10, "Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."

Do you see how precise the above scripture is, 'Christians should be united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.' Thus I'm only going to give you the same information you could get on JW.org. 

You and others seem to think Jehovah's Witnesses are brain washed and don’t think for ourselves because we follow the lead of our governing body. But that’s exactly what the scriptures say Christians are to do. Hebrews 13:17 says, “Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you.”

Remember the circumcision issue in the 1st century?  Acts 15:6 says, “So the apostles and the elders gathered together to look into this matter.” 

So who decided things for all the Christian congregations in the 1st century about circumcision?It was the governing body made up of the apostles and older men, along with the direction of the Holy Spirit. 

What did they do? In acts th 15th chapter it says, they wrote their decision and sent it back with some brothers to the congregation in Antioch. The scriptures show the governing body in Jerusalem made decisions for all the Christian congregations. 

Thus Jehovah's Witnesses follow the same arrangement. We’re obedient to those who are taking the lead among us.

Some also think Jehovah's Witnesses are to strict in following the rules, but our Creator means exactly what he says, and so does Jesus! 

Because King David become lax in following God’s rules it cost Uzzah his life. 

Second Samuel 6:5-7 says, “David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before Jehovah with all sorts of juniper-wood instruments, harps, other stringed instruments, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals. 6But when they came to the threshing floor of Na'con, Uz'zah thrust his hand out to the Ark of the true God and grabbed hold of it, for the cattle nearly upset it. 7At that Jehovah’s anger blazed against Uz'zah, and the true God struck him down there for his irreverent act, and he died there beside the Ark of the true God.”

What rule was broken? The Ark was only to be carried by the Levite Priests, and they were the only ones who were to touch it or death would result. Uzzah wasn’t a Priest, so Uzzah was struck down. God isn’t like men that change their mind, he means exactly what he says. If the rules had been followed nothing would have happened.

Christians that water down God’s word will find out like David did that you can’t water down God’s word and expect his approval. Disregarding God’s instructions was also what resulted in Adam and Eve’s death. Likewise disregarding his son Jesus’ instructions will result in our death.

Jesus says to people who consider themselves Christians, “Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say?” (Luke 6:46)

“Not everyone saying to me, “Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name’ 23And then I will declare to them: I never new you! Get away from me you workers of lawlessness! (Matthew 7:21-23)

We see from the above that people that consider themselves Christians are told by Jesus to, “Get away from me!” 

Despite their having done many, things in Jesus’ name, Jesus replies, “Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say?” 

What is it that Jesus told Christians to do, that they aren’t doing?

After Jesus’ resurrection he appeared to his disciples for a period of 40 days. During these appearances he instructed them and emphasized what their responsibilities are as his disciples. 

He tells them as recorded at Matthew 28:18-20, (Good News Translation) “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. 19 Go, then, to all peoples everywhere and make them my disciples: baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, 20 and teach them to obey everything I have commanded you.”

Jesus says he’s been given all authority both in heaven and on earth, which emphasizes to his disciples that they have to do what directly follows. He then tells them to, ‘go to people everywhere and make them disciples, and teach them everything they had been taught. So after being taught everything the new disciples would also have to make new disciples and teach them everything they had been taught. This would result in each new disciple also having to make disciples and teach them. 

This is just what Jehovah’s Witnesses do. The reason we go from house to house is that’s what Jesus taught his disciples to do. Remember Jesus sent his apostles out 2 by 2, meaning in pairs, then later when their were more disciples he sent 70 out 2 by 2. (See mark 6:7 and Luke 10:1)

After Jesus death the apostles were filling Jerusalem with Jesus’ teaching so the high priest had them hauled before the Sanhedrin and flogged before letting them go.

Acts 5:41, 42 says, “So they went out from before the SanÊ¹he·drin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy to be dishonored in behalf of his name. 42And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.

The apostles were going from house to house just as they had been taught. The apostle Paul is also recorded as going from house to house at Acts 20:20. He hadn’t been taught that by Jesus, so another of Jesus disciples had to have taught him that. 

This was what Jesus disciples were doing until the foretold apostasy from Jesus’ teachings set in. Then instead of everyone having to go and make more disciples, it was changed into a paid clergy/laity where instead of every Christian ‘going’ and making more disciples, people were just expected to find a church they liked and listen to the clergy preach.

In other words, after the apostasy disciples were no longer doing what Jesus ordered. Thus Jesus says to them,  “Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say? I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!”

So Jesus called those not obeying him, “Workers of lawlessness,” what does that mean? 

The apostle John shows that lawlessness is the same thing as sin. We read at 1 John 3:4, “Everyone who practices sin is also practicing lawlessness, and so sin is lawlessness.” 

Thus when Jesus said to get away from me you workers of lawlessness, it was the same as him saying “get away from me you sinners.” So those not obeying Jesus and his Father are sinning. 

James 4:17 says, “Therefore, if someone knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.”

Romans 6:23 says, “The wages sin pays is death.”

Judgement day is not the time to find out your are not an approved Christian. The thing is you cannot blame anyone else for what you chose to believe. You are in charge of what you do. (See 1 Thessalonians 5:21; Matthew 15:14; Galatians 6:3-5; 2 Corinthians 5:10)

John 14:23, 24 says, “In answer Jesus said to him: “If anyone loves me, he will observe my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. 24Whoever does not love me does not observe my words. The word that you are hearing is not mine, but belongs to the Father who sent me.”
-----

As to engaging me on scripture, you have already made up your mind, there’s nothing I can say that will change your mind, so It’s a waste of time from my prospective. You apparently go around engaging Jehovah’s Witnesses on different forums, so you have all our answers. I would just tell you what can be found on JW.org and you don’t want that. So there’s no point to what would be a rote discussion for either of us.

I’m going to continue to post on subjects that more people will be interested in, and answer their questions. 

Good day.


----------



## Artfuldodger

“Not everyone saying to me, “Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name’ 23And then I will declare to them: I never new you! Get away from me you workers of lawlessness! (Matthew 7:21-23)

Will, could you touch briefly on expelling demons? Do Ya'll speak in tongues?


----------



## GunnSmokeer

*Christmas*

I still want Will to explain Christmas.
Why should I care that it started in pre-Christian days?
None of the things Americans do today as part of Christmas honors any Pagan god, nor is any Chrismas activity forbidden.  

Christmas -- even as a celebration of Christ's bodily arrival on Earth-- is not commanded in the bible. 
I get that.  So what?
Neither is observing any secular holiday.
How about Independence Day? Do Witnesses shun Fourth of July grilling hot dogs in the day and watching fireworks at night?
How about Valentines Day?  Created by the Catholic church hundreds of years A.D., but is it unholy?  Is it forbidden to think of and promote romantic love (heterosexual,  without fornication, leading to marriage) ?
Does the Bible state that children should be sent to schools? Or that the kids should have a summer recess from school? Is it sinful to take a family vacation with your kids in July?

Christmas is worship, you say, so the rules are different? 
Tell me what rules of worship are rightfully carried forward from The Law to the state of Grace for today's Christians.  Which of the 613 laws forbid honoring Jesus in late December, or on day's other than Sunday?
Aaron's sons were struck dead by Jehovah for offering "strange fire" in a worship service, but I assume Moses had told them specifically how to burn incense and they decided to tempt fate with what they thought was better than God's plan.
Is singing Chrismas carols and talking about His birth forbidden, or inconsistent with a detailed set of instructions on how to pray, how to worship, and how to rejoice with other believers?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> “Not everyone saying to me, “Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name’ 23And then I will declare to them: I never new you! Get away from me you workers of *lawlessness!* (Matthew 7:21-23)
> 
> Will, could you touch briefly on expelling demons? Do Ya'll speak in tongues?


This caught my eye. Might be a good discussion topic. As Christians, we are free from the law. So, is this a greek word badly translated? Or is it exactly the law? I think it is a law of good, written on mens hearts, not written in a book?????


----------



## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> This caught my eye. Might be a good discussion topic. As Christians, we are free from the law. So, is this a greek word badly translated? Or is it exactly the law? I think it is a law of good, written on mens hearts, not written in a book?????



Perhaps it's "workers of evil" or "workers of iniquity."
Jesus is preaching against false prophets or individuals expelling demons and performing great works under the pretense of doing it for the Lord.
It's actually showing that doing works is not the way to gain salvation. Jesus said he never knew these individuals, the false prophets. The individuals who are doing works for themselves instead of for the Lord.
God could see what was in their hearts and what their reason for doing these great works. It was for selfish reasons.
They were not doing the will of the Father, plain and simple.


----------



## Artfuldodger

A good question would be, if they weren't doing the will of the Father, how did they expel demons and perform powerful works in the Lord's name?


----------



## Will Galen

1gr8bldr said:


> This caught my eye. Might be a good discussion topic. As Christians, we are free from the law. So, is this a greek word badly translated? Or is it exactly the law? I think it is a law of good, written on mens hearts, not written in a book?????



You missed the Bibles explanation in my post. 

The apostle John shows that lawlessness is the same thing as sin. We read at 1 John 3:4, “Everyone who practices sin is also practicing lawlessness, and so sin is lawlessness.” 

Thus when Jesus said to get away from me you workers of lawlessness, it was the same as him saying “get away from me you sinners.” So those not obeying Jesus and his Father are sinning.


----------



## Will Galen

1gr8bldr said:


> I differ from most in the "inspiration" of the Holy Spirit. Where most see it as the very words of God, I do not . . . I feel that if  it were the very words of God, it would be without mistake or contradiction.



Second Timothy 3:16 says, “All scripture is inspired of God.” The expression “inspired of God,” is translated from the Greek theopneustos, meaning “God-breathed.”

Inspired of God wouldn’t mean ever word in the Bible were God’s choice of words, sometimes he let men choose the words used. For example God told Habakkuk at, Habakkuk 2:2, “Write down the vision, and inscribe it clearly on tablets, So that the one reading aloud from it may do so easily.”

However in other cases God wanted what he himself said written down just as he said it. For example Jehovah told Jeremiah; ‘Write in a book all the words that I speak to you. (Jeremiah 30:2)

Thus men who penned the Bible were acting something like court reporters. Thus the apostle Peter says at 2 Peter 1:21, “ . . . men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.”

The apostle John gives us more detail as to what it means to be moved by holy spirit. At John 14:26, he recorded Jesus saying, “But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds ‘all’ the things I told you.”

Notice Jesus says the holy spirit will bring back to your minds ‘all’ the things I told you.” The apostles and some of his other disciples were with Jesus for about three and a half years, meaning everything Jesus taught them could be recalled even years later. Thus it would seem that having the holy spirit’s help would be a bit like having an open book test at school, you can thus remember everything perfectly.

Thus we see that the bible itself says that men were only the writers of the Bible, penman if you will, not the author.

The problem with not believing the whole Bible and picking and choosing what to believe is it results in a lot of different beliefs. Which in turn results in a lot of different denominations.  (41,000 According to online sites) 

Also by not believing parts of the Bible a person is actually calling into question God’s almightiness. Questioning his abilities to do his will.

At Isaiah 55:11 Jehovah says, “so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it.”

We see God’s word will have certain success. Is it not God’s purpose in writing the Bible to inform and instruct mankind? 

1 Corinthians 10:11says, “Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come.”

God has always warned people before he takes action against them. So his Bible needs to be true in all parts.

A third point is, you can never hope to understand the Bible if you dismiss parts of it. Why? Because the Bible has 66 books that are an enter-locked whole. Meaning one book won’t always say everything about a subject. Thus something that is unclear is understood only by something said in another book.
-----

As for contradictions I’m firmly of the opinion there are none in God’s word, the problem is on our end.

I read of one guy saying that he knew just from reading just one Bible account that the Bible wasn’t true. He described the Priests carrying the ark across a river, and then explained his reasoning. “Men couldn’t carry the ark across a river because it’s to big and heavy.”

He was talking about the account in the 3rd chapter of Joshua where the Israelites crossed the Jordan river. He thought where the Bible said Ark it was referring to Noah’s Ark, when what they were carrying was the Ark of the Covenant.

I related that story to show sometimes we just don’t have enough information, or as in the man’s case, enough knowledge about the Bible.

As for scriptures contradicting each other I have an example some people refer to. The following are three eye witness versions of the same account. There appears to be contradictions all over the place.

(Matthew 20:29-34) As they were going out of JerÊ¹i·cho, a large crowd followed him. 30And look! two blind men sitting beside the road heard that Jesus was passing by and cried out: “Lord, have mercy on us, Son of David!” 31But the crowd rebuked them, telling them to keep silent; yet they cried all the louder, saying: “Lord, have mercy on us, Son of David!” 32So Jesus stopped, called them, and said: “What do you want me to do for you?” 33They said to him: “Lord, let our eyes be opened.” 34Moved with pity, Jesus touched their eyes, and immediately they recovered their sight, and they followed him.

(Mark 10:46-52) They then came into JerÊ¹i·cho. But as he and his disciples and a considerable crowd were going out of JerÊ¹i·cho, Bar·ti·maeÊ¹us (the son of Ti·maeÊ¹us), a blind beggar, was sitting beside the road. 47When he heard that it was Jesus the Naz·a·reneÊ¹, he started shouting and saying: “Son of David, Jesus, have mercy on me!” 48At this many began rebuking him, telling him to be silent, but all the more he kept shouting: “Son of David, have mercy on me!” 49So Jesus stopped and said: “Call him to me.” So they called the blind man, saying to him: “Take courage! Get up; he is calling you.” 50Throwing off his outer garment, he leaped to his feet and went to Jesus. 51Then Jesus said to him: “What do you want me to do for you?” The blind man said to him: “Rab·boÊ¹ni, let me recover my sight.” 52And Jesus said to him: “Go. Your faith has made you well.” And immediately he recovered his sight, and he began to follow him on the road.

(Luke 18:35-43) Now as Jesus was getting near to JerÊ¹i·cho, a blind man was sitting beside the road begging. 36Because he heard a crowd passing by, he began to inquire what was going on. 37They reported to him: “Jesus the Naz·a·reneÊ¹ is passing by!” 38At that he cried out: “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” 39And those who were in front began rebuking him, telling him to keep quiet, but all the more he kept shouting: “Son of David, have mercy on me!” 40Then Jesus stopped and commanded that the man be brought to him. After he came near, Jesus asked him: 41“What do you want me to do for you?” He said: “Lord, let me recover my sight.” 42So Jesus said to him: “Recover your sight; your faith has made you well.” 43And instantly he recovered his sight, and he began to follow him, glorifying God. Also, at seeing it, all the people gave praise to God.

After reading these accounts how do you respond? Do you think, it’s obvious, the Bible contradicts itself?

Or do you setback and reason on matters?

You could reply, “What’s to reason, it’s an obvious conclusion, the Bible contradicts itself.”

The problem with that thinking is the Bible says, “All scripture is inspired of God.” Thus the natural question arises, why would God allow such obvious contradiction’s? 

The truth is he wouldn't, so we need to look into such matters closely. Let’s reason on the matter.

First, we know that large crowds followed Jesus everywhere he went. How large? Matthew 14:14-21 tells of Jesus being in an isolated place and then feeding, “about 5,000 men, as well as women and young children.” Another time Matthew records, ”Now those eating were 4,000 men, as well as women and young children.” (Matthew 15:38) So those crowds Jesus fed could possibly have been 10,000 and 8,000 or more, when you count the women and children.

Matthew described the crowd above, as a large crowd, whereas Mark calls it a considerable crowd. Being Jesus isn’t in an isolated place he’s near Jericho, the crowd could have been another one numbering in the thousands.

Reasoning further, those crowds were probably closely packed. We can conclude that from Marks account of the woman with a blood flow.

Mark 5:25-31says, Now there was a woman who had had a flow of blood for 12 years. 26She had suffered much at the hands of many physicians and had spent all her resources, and she was no better but, rather, had become worse. 27When she heard the reports about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his outer garment, 28for she kept saying: “If I touch just his outer garments, I will get well.” 29And immediately her flow of blood dried up, and she sensed in her body that she had been healed of the grievous sickness. 30Immediately Jesus realized in himself that power had gone out of him, and he turned around in the crowd and asked: “Who touched my outer garments?” 31But his disciples said to him: “You see the crowd pressing in on you, and you ask, ‘Who touched me?’” 

That account shows the crowds that followed Jesus were at least sometimes closely packed together. What can we deduce from these facts?

Since the crowd is described as considerable by Mark, the writers of the 3 accounts above were probably scattered throughout the crowd at different locations.

Thus is it possible that Mark and Luke only saw one blind man whereas Matthew saw two? Remember these gospel accounts are from men telling about Jesus life from their viewpoint as to what was said and what was going on.

Does Mark’s account of Bartimaeus a blind beggar being healed conflict with Luke’s account that a blind beggar was healed? No Mark was just providing more information.

Do either of these accounts exclude the possibility that there were two blind beggars? No again, just writers giving their viewpoint from different locations in a large, packed crowd.

We are all aware that people who witness accidents can give completely different accounts. People don’t focus on exactly the same things, so they produce different accounts of the same events. Could it be the same thing here?

So is it possible the accounts aren’t conflicting, they’re just a product of differing viewpoints? It’s possible, isn’t it.

But what about the location where the healing took place? Both Matthew and Mark say it was when they were coming out of Jericho. Luke says it was when they were getting near Jericho. That’s not viewpoint information, and it’s not more detail, it’s a real contradiction. There’s no way the writers could miss whether they were coming into or going out of a city.

It appears that way from what we know. So let’s add some more information. In the early 1900's archaeologists discovered that the Jericho of Jesus’ day was a double city with the Jewish city being about a mile from the Roman city.

So, let’s reason some more. Could it be that Jesus and the crowd with him were leaving the Jewish city and going to the Roman city, or could it have been the other way around? 

It’s entirely possible isn’t it? It’s entirely possible that everything in each of these accounts is correct from the writers viewpoint and thus there are no contradictions.

A lot of what are perceived as contradictions in the Bible are from the reader not having enough knowledge or information. I’ve seen enough perceived contradictions fall flat after being reasoned on that I don’t believe there are any contradictions, just us, mankind not having enough information. 

As for mistakes, you will have to enlighten me with what you mean. 

Good Day!


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Will Galen said:


> Second Timothy 3:16 says, â€œAll scripture is inspired of God.â€� The expression â€œinspired of God,â€� is translated from the Greek theopneustos, meaning â€œGod-breathed.â€�
> 
> Inspired of God wouldnâ€™t mean ever word in the Bible were Godâ€™s choice of words, sometimes he let men choose the words used. For example God told Habakkuk at, Habakkuk 2:2, â€œWrite down the vision, and inscribe it clearly on tablets, So that the one reading aloud from it may do so easily.â€�
> 
> However in other cases God wanted what he himself said written down just as he said it. For example Jehovah told Jeremiah; â€˜Write in a book all the words that I speak to you. (Jeremiah 30:2)
> 
> Thus men who penned the Bible were acting something like court reporters. Thus the apostle Peter says at 2 Peter 1:21, â€œ . . . men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.â€�
> 
> The apostle John gives us more detail as to what it means to be moved by holy spirit. At John 14:26, he recorded Jesus saying, â€œBut the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds â€˜allâ€™ the things I told you.â€�
> 
> Notice Jesus says the holy spirit will bring back to your minds â€˜allâ€™ the things I told you.â€� The apostles and some of his other disciples were with Jesus for about three and a half years, meaning everything Jesus taught them could be recalled even years later. Thus it would seem that having the holy spiritâ€™s help would be a bit like having an open book test at school, you can thus remember everything perfectly.
> 
> Thus we see that the bible itself says that men were only the writers of the Bible, penman if you will, not the author.
> 
> The problem with not believing the whole Bible and picking and choosing what to believe is it results in a lot of different beliefs. Which in turn results in a lot of different denominations.  (41,000 According to online sites)
> 
> Also by not believing parts of the Bible a person is actually calling into question Godâ€™s almightiness. Questioning his abilities to do his will.
> 
> At Isaiah 55:11 Jehovah says, â€œso my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it.â€�
> 
> We see Godâ€™s word will have certain success. Is it not Godâ€™s purpose in writing the Bible to inform and instruct mankind?
> 
> 1 Corinthians 10:11says, â€œNow these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come.â€�
> 
> God has always warned people before he takes action against them. So his Bible needs to be true in all parts.
> 
> A third point is, you can never hope to understand the Bible if you dismiss parts of it. Why? Because the Bible has 66 books that are an enter-locked whole. Meaning one book wonâ€™t always say everything about a subject. Thus something that is unclear is understood only by something said in another book.
> -----
> 
> As for contradictions Iâ€™m firmly of the opinion there are none in Godâ€™s word, the problem is on our end.
> 
> I read of one guy saying that he knew just from reading just one Bible account that the Bible wasnâ€™t true. He described the Priests carrying the ark across a river, and then explained his reasoning. â€œMen couldnâ€™t carry the ark across a river because itâ€™s to big and heavy.â€�
> 
> He was talking about the account in the 3rd chapter of Joshua where the Israelites crossed the Jordan river. He thought where the Bible said Ark it was referring to Noahâ€™s Ark, when what they were carrying was the Ark of the Covenant.
> 
> I related that story to show sometimes we just donâ€™t have enough information, or as in the manâ€™s case, enough knowledge about the Bible.
> 
> As for scriptures contradicting each other I have an example some people refer to. The following are three eye witness versions of the same account. There appears to be contradictions all over the place.
> 
> (Matthew 20:29-34) As they were going out of JerÊ¹i·cho, a large crowd followed him. 30And look! two blind men sitting beside the road heard that Jesus was passing by and cried out: â€œLord, have mercy on us, Son of David!â€� 31But the crowd rebuked them, telling them to keep silent; yet they cried all the louder, saying: â€œLord, have mercy on us, Son of David!â€� 32So Jesus stopped, called them, and said: â€œWhat do you want me to do for you?â€� 33They said to him: â€œLord, let our eyes be opened.â€� 34Moved with pity, Jesus touched their eyes, and immediately they recovered their sight, and they followed him.
> 
> (Mark 10:46-52) They then came into JerÊ¹i·cho. But as he and his disciples and a considerable crowd were going out of JerÊ¹i·cho, Bar·ti·maeÊ¹us (the son of Ti·maeÊ¹us), a blind beggar, was sitting beside the road. 47When he heard that it was Jesus the Naz·a·reneÊ¹, he started shouting and saying: â€œSon of David, Jesus, have mercy on me!â€� 48At this many began rebuking him, telling him to be silent, but all the more he kept shouting: â€œSon of David, have mercy on me!â€� 49So Jesus stopped and said: â€œCall him to me.â€� So they called the blind man, saying to him: â€œTake courage! Get up; he is calling you.â€� 50Throwing off his outer garment, he leaped to his feet and went to Jesus. 51Then Jesus said to him: â€œWhat do you want me to do for you?â€� The blind man said to him: â€œRab·boÊ¹ni, let me recover my sight.â€� 52And Jesus said to him: â€œGo. Your faith has made you well.â€� And immediately he recovered his sight, and he began to follow him on the road.
> 
> (Luke 18:35-43) Now as Jesus was getting near to JerÊ¹i·cho, a blind man was sitting beside the road begging. 36Because he heard a crowd passing by, he began to inquire what was going on. 37They reported to him: â€œJesus the Naz·a·reneÊ¹ is passing by!â€� 38At that he cried out: â€œJesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!â€� 39And those who were in front began rebuking him, telling him to keep quiet, but all the more he kept shouting: â€œSon of David, have mercy on me!â€� 40Then Jesus stopped and commanded that the man be brought to him. After he came near, Jesus asked him: 41â€œWhat do you want me to do for you?â€� He said: â€œLord, let me recover my sight.â€� 42So Jesus said to him: â€œRecover your sight; your faith has made you well.â€� 43And instantly he recovered his sight, and he began to follow him, glorifying God. Also, at seeing it, all the people gave praise to God.
> 
> After reading these accounts how do you respond? Do you think, itâ€™s obvious, the Bible contradicts itself?
> 
> Or do you setback and reason on matters?
> 
> You could reply, â€œWhatâ€™s to reason, itâ€™s an obvious conclusion, the Bible contradicts itself.â€�
> 
> The problem with that thinking is the Bible says, â€œAll scripture is inspired of God.â€� Thus the natural question arises, why would God allow such obvious contradictionâ€™s?
> 
> The truth is he wouldn't, so we need to look into such matters closely. Letâ€™s reason on the matter.
> 
> First, we know that large crowds followed Jesus everywhere he went. How large? Matthew 14:14-21 tells of Jesus being in an isolated place and then feeding, â€œabout 5,000 men, as well as women and young children.â€� Another time Matthew records, â€�Now those eating were 4,000 men, as well as women and young children.â€� (Matthew 15:38) So those crowds Jesus fed could possibly have been 10,000 and 8,000 or more, when you count the women and children.
> 
> Matthew described the crowd above, as a large crowd, whereas Mark calls it a considerable crowd. Being Jesus isnâ€™t in an isolated place heâ€™s near Jericho, the crowd could have been another one numbering in the thousands.
> 
> Reasoning further, those crowds were probably closely packed. We can conclude that from Marks account of the woman with a blood flow.
> 
> Mark 5:25-31says, Now there was a woman who had had a flow of blood for 12 years. 26She had suffered much at the hands of many physicians and had spent all her resources, and she was no better but, rather, had become worse. 27When she heard the reports about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his outer garment, 28for she kept saying: â€œIf I touch just his outer garments, I will get well.â€� 29And immediately her flow of blood dried up, and she sensed in her body that she had been healed of the grievous sickness. 30Immediately Jesus realized in himself that power had gone out of him, and he turned around in the crowd and asked: â€œWho touched my outer garments?â€� 31But his disciples said to him: â€œYou see the crowd pressing in on you, and you ask, â€˜Who touched me?â€™â€�
> 
> That account shows the crowds that followed Jesus were at least sometimes closely packed together. What can we deduce from these facts?
> 
> Since the crowd is described as considerable by Mark, the writers of the 3 accounts above were probably scattered throughout the crowd at different locations.
> 
> Thus is it possible that Mark and Luke only saw one blind man whereas Matthew saw two? Remember these gospel accounts are from men telling about Jesus life from their viewpoint as to what was said and what was going on.
> 
> Does Markâ€™s account of Bartimaeus a blind beggar being healed conflict with Lukeâ€™s account that a blind beggar was healed? No Mark was just providing more information.
> 
> Do either of these accounts exclude the possibility that there were two blind beggars? No again, just writers giving their viewpoint from different locations in a large, packed crowd.
> 
> We are all aware that people who witness accidents can give completely different accounts. People donâ€™t focus on exactly the same things, so they produce different accounts of the same events. Could it be the same thing here?
> 
> So is it possible the accounts arenâ€™t conflicting, theyâ€™re just a product of differing viewpoints? Itâ€™s possible, isnâ€™t it.
> 
> But what about the location where the healing took place? Both Matthew and Mark say it was when they were coming out of Jericho. Luke says it was when they were getting near Jericho. Thatâ€™s not viewpoint information, and itâ€™s not more detail, itâ€™s a real contradiction. Thereâ€™s no way the writers could miss whether they were coming into or going out of a city.
> 
> It appears that way from what we know. So letâ€™s add some more information. In the early 1900's archaeologists discovered that the Jericho of Jesusâ€™ day was a double city with the Jewish city being about a mile from the Roman city.
> 
> So, letâ€™s reason some more. Could it be that Jesus and the crowd with him were leaving the Jewish city and going to the Roman city, or could it have been the other way around?
> 
> Itâ€™s entirely possible isnâ€™t it? Itâ€™s entirely possible that everything in each of these accounts is correct from the writers viewpoint and thus there are no contradictions.
> 
> A lot of what are perceived as contradictions in the Bible are from the reader not having enough knowledge or information. Iâ€™ve seen enough perceived contradictions fall flat after being reasoned on that I donâ€™t believe there are any contradictions, just us, mankind not having enough information.
> 
> As for mistakes, you will have to enlighten me with what you mean.
> 
> Good Day!


I agree that the same account is often told a little differently. And yes, picking and choosing is indeed... a slippery slope


----------



## welderguy

Philippians 1:15-18 (KJV)

15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:

16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:

17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Preach on brothers !


----------



## hobbs27

Will Galen said:


> You're not understanding Jehovah's Witnesses. We really believe the Bible is the word of God and we strive to obey it.   .



There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that you truly believe that you are obeying the word of God. I can show you in Mt.24 where the JW's go astray from the word of God, and when their Eschatology fails, so does their theology.


----------



## Will Galen

I've gone back and started rereading this thread from the beginning since I'm trying to correct people's thinking on what Jehovah's witnesses believe.

I said in my first post, #267 in this thread, "After reading all these stories about what people believe about Jehovah’s Witnesses, I must say a lot of what is said about our beliefs isn’t accurate.

The following post is inaccurate.



BANDERSNATCH said:


> August 15, 1968 WATCHTOWER page 494
> 
> "Why are you looking forward to 1975?"
> 
> When I show JW's this article (from their own Watchtower...from the only prophet in the world today) I tell them to substitute 2018 in to get the effect of what the Watchtower was telling people in 1968.   The article states that the 1000 year  reign of Christ would begin in the fall of 1968...."within a matter of weeks or months; not years"   Why publish an article like that, 8 years in advance, if they weren't prophesying something?



I have a CD with a complete library of Watchtower Publications dating back to the 1950's, thus I have that 1968 article on disk. 

Please note: It’s important to understand when I refer to the post above I’m referring to Bandersnatch's post in this thread. When I refer to the article I’m referring to the Watchtower article of 1968.

In the post above which says, "I tell them to substitute 2018 in to get the effect of what the Watchtower was telling people in 1968."

I have experienced that's true to a limited degree. I say limited degree because most of the world doesn't pay much attention to Jehovah's Witnesses, thus the article  was limited in effect to mostly Jehovah's Witnesses and those who were interested in their religion. Thus the date 1975 wasn't the big deal that some try to make it. Jehovah's Witnesses weren't going from door to door proclaiming the end was coming in 1975.

As for my experience, my wife at that time came home with a girlfriend, both were Jehovah's Witnesses. Myself, I was a disfellowshipped Witnesses at that time. I've long since been reinstated. 

For any Jehovah’s Witnesses reading this, I was still disfellowshipped when I met and married my wife, who was not a Witness. My mother, a Jehovah's Witness, started a Bible study with my wife and she became a Jehovah's Witness.  I later divorced her, way before being reinstated, and sad to say she's now disfellowshipped. That's all I will say on that subject.

Back to my experience. My wife and her girlfriend were talking about the aforementioned magazine and were all aflutter about it. They were thinking the magazine was probably right and the end was probably going to come in 1975. 

I overheard them and asked what they were talking about. They gave me a magazine to read and after I read the article I told them. It's not saying the end is coming in 1975, they are just speculating on what’s going to happen. The article only says there's a ‘possibly.’

A Watchtower article prior to the one referred to above, and in the same magazine was titled, "The book of truthful historical dates.” It was showing that the dates given in the Bible are reliable. Witness academics had taken a date in history that both the Bible and secular history agrees on and worked out a chronology going both ways in history. 

Thus they had come to what was a tentative date, that the autumn of 1975 was the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth. They said in the article that their chronology was reasonably accurate but admittedly not infallible. (The magazines words not mine.)

Back to the post above. 
What’s wrong with the post above is it says the following: “The article states that the 1000 year reign of Christ would begin in the fall of 1968...."within a matter of weeks or months; not years"

Although that's made to look like a direct quote, it appears to be some sentences cobbled together, and I couldn’t find the second half. The actual article does say it's a possibility Christ's reign could began then, it doesn't state it as a fact as the poster states it.

As for the Watchtower article itself, it also warns it's readers by repeating Jesus words from Matthew 24:36, “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” 

The article also says that several knotty problems of chronology of a minor nature were not yet resolved. 

Thus anybody using this article to prove Jehovah’s Witnesses prophesied the end in 1975, are mistaken.   

[If you want to read the article for yourself, message me for a copy.]

Good day!


----------



## hobbs27

Date setters always have been and always will be wrong. Some like the JWs have been wrong many times.

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/1800s.php


----------



## Will Galen

*Debating.*



BANDERSNATCH said:


> I seriously doubt you'll find one that is comfortable in not going door-to-door, though.   They may say that they don't need to, and are only doing what Jehovah has asked them to do, but since they have no guarantee that Jehovah will resurrect them in the end, why chance it?



A lot of Jehovah's Witnesses are not comfortable going from door to door. And we do need to do it because Christ Jesus commanded Christians to do so. 

As for the resurrection, there's no works anyone can do to make their resurrection a sure thing. Salvation is a gift God gives, not something earned.



> A JW thread would have to include a promise of "no debating" before a JW would engage us....IMO.



Second Timothy 2:14 says, “Keep reminding them of these things, instructing them before God not to fight about words, something of no usefulness at all because it harms those listening.”

How would it harm those listening? Because fights over anything harms relationships and by extension what a person is representing.  

For example, it used to be years ago that most people were cordial in debating sports. Nowadays in Europe they fence fans of different teams off from one another to prevent them from fighting and even killing one another.

Thus by continuing to debate with someone over a subject only results in bad feelings, thus people will dislike you and who you represent.

Thus what I try to do is give Jehovah’s Witnesses viewpoint on a subject and then follow it up if necessary with more information or by clarifying something not understood. If they don’t agree or still don’t understand there’s no point in engaging in prolonged back and forth debate.


----------



## hobbs27

Larry Siegle explains why all date setters are wrong. They are looking for something that is come and gone.

"We are in the "last days" of 2015, a transition period between the "end" of one year and the "beginning" of a new year.  The old things of 2015 are in the process of "passing away" as the new things of 2016 begin to dawn just over the horizon.  

The time is now "at hand" to reflect on how far we have come, and "shortly" we will realize what our lives will become in the next twelve months of 2016.

"Soon" it will be the "last hour" of the "last day" as the clock strikes midnight on December 31st and the "end" will have arrived. 

But, on January 1, 2016, the sun will shine, the birds will sing, and life on planet earth will continue with the arrival of a "new" day and a "new" year. The "former things" of 2015 will have "passed away".  

The words in quotation marks are likewise used by inspiration to describe the "time of the end" in the foretelling of events that would bring one "world" or "age" to an "end" and in the birth of a new "world" or "age".  

The "last days" moved toward the "last day" and the "last hour".  The Old Covenant "passed away" through fulfillment of "the law and the prophets" and the "everlasting covenant" emerged in all of its glory and fullness.  

The Bible, from Genesis to Revelation is about the covenant-faithfulness of God, in fulfilling His "purpose of the ages" to bring people, separated from God by the bondage of sin and death back into His life-giving presence through the sacrificial death of Christ Jesus.  It is the opportunity to trust God with every part of our lives under the Lordship of Jesus Christ and to be transformed by the power of the gospel fulfilled.

The world into which we were born as human beings is filled with those who are damaged, broken and hurting.  War, crime, violence, poverty, hunger, sickness and disease are everywhere present as an assault on our sensibilities.  

The power of the "everlasting covenant" and the "everlasting gospel" through those who are believers brings "healing of the nations" as the reign of God is demonstrated in every area of our daily lives.  God has equipped us to have an impact on the lives of those around us, our families, cities, nation and the world.  It is not about "talking the talk" but rather about "walking the walk" in all that we think, say and do.  

Millions who once "played church" are now disgusted with all religion and are no longer "playing church" they are just "playing"--complaining but without doing, talking about love but not demonstrating it.  

Those who believe in fulfillment are often great intellectual thinkers, proud of their ability to attack the doctrines of those with whom we disagree.  But there is NO life in the message IF it is just about thinking and discussing, but not DOING.  2016 needs to see a "relational revival" as God's people devote themselves to prayer, meet together for fellowship, and become equipped to take the fulfilled gospel--the Christ-centered "message of the cross" and the fulfillment of "all things written" out into the streets, prisons, hospitals, and everywhere someone will listen.  

There is life NOW beyond what the Bible described as the "end times".  It is a glorious and amazing life that is like no other! --Larry Siegle.


----------



## Will Galen

*John 1:1*

What Jehovah’s Witnesses believe concerning John 1:1 

John 1:1 in the King James Bible says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe John 1:1 translated this way is bad grammar uncorrected.

Let me tell a story to demonstrate the problem. Say you are a father with two teenage girls named Penny and Diane who our supposed to be at the Mall. They haven’t always been where they are supposed to be so they have to check in. Your youngest girl Penny phones home to check in and you answer the phone. 

You ask, “Is Diane with you?”
Penny answers, “Yes.” 
She’s expecting you to ask to talk to Diane to make sure they are together.
Instead you ask, “Are you her?”
Penny says, “What?”
I asked, “Are you Diane?”
“No I’m Penny? Do you want to talk to Diane?”
“Are you with Diane?”
“I already answered yes.”
“Are you Diane?”
“Dad are you okay? You’re not making sense.”
“I’m fine, are you Diane?”
Exasperated, Penny replies, “No, I’m Penny! Why do you keep asking if I’m with Diane, and right after I answer yes, you ask me if I’m Diane? I just told you I’m with Diane, how could I be her?”

If you tried this experiment on someone you would get the same reaction the Dad got, exasperation. Someone with someone cannot be that someone, and everyone knows that, so people will think you daft if you keep asking.

Thus when a translator translates the first two parts of John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,” it’s just not grammatically correct to translate the 3rd part, “and the Word was God.” That rendering doesn’t fit the context. The 3rd part is now contradicting the 2nd part. Everyone knows you can’t be with someone and also be them, likewise the Word can’t be with God, and be God

The Koine Greek language the New Testament was written in did not have an indefinite article (‘a’ or ‘an’) in it. So it’s the translators job to correct this by putting (‘a’ and ‘an,’) where they should go in a sentence to make the grammar correct. 

As an example, at Mark 6:49 in the King James Bible it says, “But when they saw him [Jesus] walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been ‘a’ spirit, . . . ”

In the Koine Greek, there is no ‘a’ before spirit at Mark 6:49, so the translators put one there so it would be grammatically correct, whereas at John 1:1 where the same type of sentence structure is found the same translators refused to correct what would be bad grammar.

Why? They left the bad grammar because it fit the translators Trinitarian theology.

Notice how other Bible’s translate John 1:1:

 “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text.

“and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.

“and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.

“and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J.M.P.Smith and E.J.Goodspeed.

“and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.

“and the Word was a god.” New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.

“and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L.Tomanek.

“and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.

“and godlike kind was the Logos.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider.

Why didn’t the King James translators translate John 1:1 like the above Bible’s do? Because if they translated John grammatically correct, it would show that Jesus wasn’t part of a trinity.

As is, both sides bring out language experts to go at each other when they really aren’t needed, because someone with someone isn’t that someone, and the verse still says  
“and the Word was with God.”

The only way a person can believe someone is someone else is in the case of the Trinity, and you have to have that belief before you would ever translate that to be the case.

If Jack was with Ike, they would never translate it to say he was Ike.
If Matt was with Joe, they would never translate it to say he was Joe.
If the Word was with God, they would never translate it to say he was God. 

Whoops they do in that last case . . . to support their Trinitarian beliefs.

Good Day!


----------



## Will Galen

*God's name Jehovah in various English Translations of the Bible.*



VenisonMan said:


> Trinity is not in the bible. Of course, neither is "Jehovah".



God's name ‘Jehovah’ is in the Bible, but it depends on what translation you are using also. Most Bible's remove God's name and replace it with titles.

Some examples:

The New English Bible: The name Jehovah appears at Exodus 3:15; 6:3.

King James Version: The name Jehovah is found at Exodus 6:3; Psalm 83:18; Isaiah 12:2; 26:4.

American Standard Version: The name Jehovah is used consistently in the Hebrew Scriptures in this translation.

New World Translation: The name Jehovah is used in both the Hebrew and the Christian Greek Scriptures in this translation, appearing 7,210 times.

The Bible in Living English, S. T. Byington: The name Jehovah is used throughout the Hebrew Scriptures.

The ‘Holy Scriptures’ translated by J.N. Darby: The name Jehovah appears throughout the Hebrew Scriptures.

The Emphatic Diaglott, Benjamin Wilson: The name Jehovah is found at Matthew 21:9 and in 17 other places in this translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.

The Holy Bible translated by Robert Young: The name Jehovah is found throughout the Hebrew Scriptures in this literal translation.

I just listed English versions that the name Jehovah appears in. In appears in other language Bibles also.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Will Galen said:


> What Jehovah’s Witnesses believe concerning John 1:1
> 
> John 1:1 in the King James Bible says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
> 
> Jehovah’s Witnesses believe John 1:1 translated this way is bad grammar uncorrected.
> 
> Let me tell a story to demonstrate the problem. Say you are a father with two teenage girls named Penny and Diane who our supposed to be at the Mall. They haven’t always been where they are supposed to be so they have to check in. Your youngest girl Penny phones home to check in and you answer the phone.
> 
> You ask, “Is Diane with you?”
> Penny answers, “Yes.”
> She’s expecting you to ask to talk to Diane to make sure they are together.
> Instead you ask, “Are you her?”
> Penny says, “What?”
> I asked, “Are you Diane?”
> “No I’m Penny? Do you want to talk to Diane?”
> “Are you with Diane?”
> “I already answered yes.”
> “Are you Diane?”
> “Dad are you okay? You’re not making sense.”
> “I’m fine, are you Diane?”
> Exasperated, Penny replies, “No, I’m Penny! Why do you keep asking if I’m with Penny, and right after I answer yes, you ask me if I’m Diane? I just told you I’m with Diane, how could I be her?”
> 
> If you tried this experiment on someone you would get the same reaction the Dad got, exasperation. Someone with someone cannot be that someone, and everyone knows that, so people will think you daft if you keep asking.
> 
> Thus when a translator translates the first two parts of John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,” it’s just not grammatically correct to translate the 3rd part, “and the Word was God.” That rendering doesn’t fit the context. The 3rd part is now contradicting the 2nd part. Everyone knows you can’t be with someone and also be them, likewise the Word can’t be with God, and be God
> 
> The Koine Greek language the New Testament was written in did not have an indefinite article (‘a’ or ‘an’) in it. So it’s the translators job to correct this by putting (‘a’ and ‘an,’) where they should go in a sentence to make the grammar correct.
> 
> As an example, at Mark 6:49 in the King James Bible it says, “But when they saw him [Jesus] walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been ‘a’ spirit, . . . ”
> 
> In the Koine Greek, there is no ‘a’ before spirit at Mark 6:49, so the translators put one there so it would be grammatically correct, whereas at John 1:1 where the same type of sentence structure is found the same translators refused to correct what would be bad grammar.
> 
> Why? They left the bad grammar because it fit the translators Trinitarian theology.
> 
> Notice how other Bible’s translate John 1:1:
> 
> “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text.
> 
> “and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.
> 
> “and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.
> 
> “and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J.M.P.Smith and E.J.Goodspeed.
> 
> “and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.
> 
> “and the Word was a god.” New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.
> 
> “and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L.Tomanek.
> 
> “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.
> 
> “and godlike kind was the Logos.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider.
> 
> Why didn’t the King James translators translate John 1:1 like the above Bible’s do? Because if they translated John grammatically correct, it would show that Jesus wasn’t part of a trinity.
> 
> As is, both sides bring out language experts to go at each other when they really aren’t needed, because someone with someone isn’t that someone, and the verse still says
> “and the Word was with God.”
> 
> The only way a person can believe someone is someone else is in the case of the Trinity, and you have to have that belief before you would ever translate that to be the case.
> 
> If Jack was with Ike, they would never translate it to say he was Ike.
> If Matt was with Joe, they would never translate it to say he was Joe.
> If the Word was with God, they would never translate it to say he was God.
> 
> Whoops they do in that last case . . . to support their Trinitarian beliefs.
> 
> Good Day!



So exactly how would you say John 1:1 should be translated?


----------



## hobbs27

Jehovah is a mispronounced name for God.

Gods true name is first recorded YHWH. This is in the old Hebrew before the language developed vowels. Yahweh is the true name of God not Jehovah.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/is-gods-name-yahweh-or-jehovah


----------



## centerpin fan

Will Galen said:


> Why? They left the bad grammar because it fit the translators Trinitarian theology.



Belief in the Trinity did not begin with the King James translators.


----------



## Will Galen

*What is the Divine Name?*

What is the Divine Name?
The Bible shows that Jehovah is the name God has given himself. Exodus 3:15 says, “Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.”

A controversy concerning the Divine Name
After the death of Jesus and his apostles a Jewish superstition gained prominence that Gods name was to holy to pronounce. So despite the fact that God had told the Israelites his name was Jehovah and that’s how he wanted to be remembered, and despite the fact that God’s name had been in use for thousands of years, and despite the fact the name was in the scriptures thousands of times, the Israelite nation quit pronouncing God’s name and even forbid it’s use.

The problem is ancient Hebrew was written without vowels. It was like the modern practice of using abbreviation. For example today we read "blvd." as "boulevard." 

Since the Hebrew language did not use vowel points at that time, all we have today are the four consonants in God’s name, commonly called the Tetragrammaton. These four letters may be transliterated into English as YHWH or, JHVH.

However when the Jewish nation quit pronouncing God’s name it’s proper pronunciation was eventually lost. Thus which vowels are to be combined with those consonants is disputed. 

Most scholars favor either the two syllable Hebrew word ‘Yahweh,’ or the three syllable ‘Yahowah,’ as God’s name. Both Yehowah and Yahweh use YHWH, the four consonants in God’s name. Yahweh uses the vowels ‘a’ and ‘e.’ Whereas Yehowah uses the vowels ‘e’ ‘o’ ‘a,’ the same vowels as Jehovah, the English translation of the divine name.

Some people argue that Jehovah is a translation, hence it’s not really God’s name so it shouldn’t be used. There are several obvious things wrong with that argument. One, God’s titles, such as God, and lord, are not his name either, so by the above logic they shouldn’t be used either.

Two, other names in the Bible are also translations, including the name Jesus. Thus most all names in the Bible would need changed.

Three, it would be ideal for all names to be pronounced the same way, but there are thousands of different languages in the world and getting all groups to agree is impossible. 

Thus it’s normal and proper for names to take on different pronunciations when they are spoken in different languages. A good example is the English name ‘John.’ In German and Dutch it’s pronounced ‘Johann,’ in French it’s ‘Jean,’ in Spanish it’s ‘Juan,’ in Italian it’s ‘Giovanni,’ and in Hebrew it would be ‘Jehohanah.’

Since God is the reason there are so many languages, (See Genesis 11:1-9) it only makes sense to pronounce names the way they are translated in ones language. The divine name has long been pronounced as Jehovah in English.

Below are some examples of the divine name in different languages.
Danish - Jehova
Dutch - Jehovah
Finnish - Jehova
French - Jéhovah
German - Jehova
Hungarian - Jehova
Italian - Geova
Japanese - Ehoba
Polish - Jehowa
Portuguese - Jeová
Spanish - Jehová
Swedish - Jehova

Attempts to recover the correct pronunciation of the Divine Name.
Everett Fox in his book, The Five Books of Moses, published 1995, says that neither Yahweh or Yehowah/Jehovah can be conclusively proven. (Paraphrased, not a quote)

However it’s been pointed out by scholars that the Bible itself seems to provide a key to the pronunciation of God’s name. This is because many names of people and places mentioned in the Bible contain an abbreviated form of the divine name. These names are called theophoric names and they were not forbidden to use so they were pronounced.

A couple examples;
Jonathan, is YohnathanÊ¹ or YehohnathanÊ¹ in the Hebrew Bible, it means “Yaho or Yahowah has given” Jehoshaphat is Yehohshaphat in HebrewÊ¹, and it means, “Yaho has judged.”

In the dozens of Biblical names that incorporate the divine name, this middle vowel sound ‘o’ appears in both the original and the shortened forms, such as in the two names above. That means a two-syllable pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton as “Yahweh” would not allow for the o vowel sound to exist as part of God’s name.

Scholars also say that Hebrew Poetry supports the Divine Name as being pronounced in Three Syllables. Why? Because the corresponding word that was used to "Rhyme" with it - always had 3 syllables.”

Divine Name Summary
Everett Fox points out the correct pronunciation of the divine name cannot be conclusively proven. Thus, there is no definitive way to prove which vowels accompanied the consonants YHWH.

Theophoric names and Hebrew Poetry suggest that God’s name has three syllables and thus compelling evidence that the ancient pronunciation of God’s name is Yehowah, and not the two syllable Yahweh. 

Thus it appears Yehowah has seen to it that we not only know his correct name, but that in the English translation ‘Jehovah’ we also have the correct translation.

A few examples showing the importance of the Divine Name;
[These scriptures were taken from a Bible (NWT) that puts the Divine name in the text where it originally occurred.]

(Exodus 3:15) Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.”

(Psalm 83:18) May people know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth. 

(Isaiah 42:8) I am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one else, Nor my praise to graven images.

(Jeremiah 33:1-2) The word of Jehovah came to Jeremiah the second time, while he was still confined in the Courtyard of the Guard, saying: 2“This is what Jehovah the Maker of earth says, Jehovah who formed it and firmly established it; Jehovah is his name . . .’”

(Psalm 20:7) “Concerning the name of Jehovah our God we shall make mention.” 

King David wrote the above psalm, he obviously took his own words to heart because in the 86th Psalm, [One of his prayers] he used God’s name Jehovah a total of eleven times. David also wrote the Psalm below.

(Psalm 8:1,3,4) “O Jehovah our Lord, how majestic your name is throughout the earth; 3When I see your heavens, the works of your fingers, The moon and the stars that you have prepared, 4What is mortal man that you keep him in mind, And a son of man that you take care of him?”

(Isaiah 12:4) “Give thanks to Jehovah, you people! Call upon his name. Make known among the peoples his dealings. Make mention that his name is put on high.”

(Jeremiah 16:20,21) “Can a man make gods for himself When they are not really gods? 21“So I will make them know, At this time I will make them know my power and my might, And they will have to know that my name is Jehovah.”

(Ezekiel 36:22, 23) 22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Not for your sakes am I acting, O house of Israel, but for my holy name, which you profaned among the nations where you have gone.”’ 23‘I will certainly sanctify my great name, . . .  and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah’‘’

(John 12:28) [Jesus praying] “Father, glorify your name.” In response, God spoke from heaven, saying: “I both glorified it and will glorify it again.” [Jehovah is not in this scripture, it was provided because of what was said about the name]

(Malachi 3:16) “Those in fear of Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance began to be written up before him for those in fear of Jehovah and for those thinking upon his name.”

(Psalm 91:14) God said: “Because he has affection for me, I will rescue him. I will protect him because he knows my name.”

(Proverbs 18:10) The name of Jehovah is a strong tower. Into it the righteous one runs and receives protection.

Showing how important the use of God’s name is, the prophet Joel made the statement; “Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” Later the apostles Peter and Paul both are both recorded as useing the same words. (Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13) 

However, more is involved than just calling out Jehovah’s name to be protected or saved. Paul says,“Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved. 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him whom they have not heard?”  17 “Faith follows the things heard.” Thus more than an appeal to God’s name is required. It means getting to know him as a person. (Romans 10:13,14,17)

Showing that we must get to know Jehovah as a person, the apostle John states, “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3)

As we can see from reading Bible scriptures with God’s name Jehovah in the text where it originally appeared, the importance of the divine name becomes readily apparent. Just from reading Malachi 3:16 we can see the use of his personal name is a matter of importance to Jehovah because he takes note when people just [think] about his name.

At John 17:26 Jesus says, “I have made your name known to them [his disciples] and will make it known.”

The Bible has many more scriptures just like the above, thus making it very clear that Jehovah wants us to know his name and use it.


----------



## hobbs27

The most obvious proof that Jehovah's Witnesses spell YHWH wrong as "Jehovah" is the fact that the letter "J" doesn't even exist in Hebrew, Greek, Latin. Further, the English language did not have a letter "J" before about 1500 AD. For example, the very first edition of the KJV printed in 1611 AD, contained no "J". Not even one! Instead the letter "I" is used for Jew, Jesus, Joshua, Joanna, John AND the person pronoun "I". Instead these words were written in 1611 AD as, Iew, Iesus, Ioshua, Ioanna, Iohn. In a stunning admission, Jehovah's witnesses tell us that the reason they continue to use "Jehovah" instead of the correct spelling Yahweh, is to be pleasing to man, not God.


----------



## Will Galen

centerpin fan said:


> Belief in the Trinity did not begin with the King James translators.



That’s very true. The Trinity doctrine had it’s beginning at the First Council of Nicaea in 325. C.E. The pagan emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea because he wanted both political and religious unity in his empire.

The Encyclopaedia Britannica states: [Paraphrased]
Emperor Constantine presided, and guided the discussions. He also personally proposed the formula expressing the relationship of Christ to God as of being of one substance with the father.

Thus the Trinity first begin in the mind of a pagan. [Pagans of that time believed in trinities of Gods.]

Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. 

Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: “That Constantine, worshipped the Unconquered Sun. [Paraphrased]


----------



## hobbs27

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever," (n. 7; PG 5.988).

"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts," (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7).


----------



## Will Galen

hobbs27 said:


> In a stunning admission, Jehovah's witnesses tell us that the reason they continue to use "Jehovah" instead of the correct spelling Yahweh, is to be pleasing to man, not God.



Actually they say, [paraphased] Since certainty in pronunciation is not known there is no reason to abandoning the well known Jehovah.

They are not going to abandon the name Jehovah when there is no real proof one way or the other what the Divine name really is. It would be really stupid to do that and then to find out the name really is Jehovah and have to change back.

I’ve known all along that scholars were not in agreement with what the divine name is, because it just can’t be proved. Honest scholars themselves will tell you that. 

I thought Yahweh was the most likely pronunciation myself until I did research on the divine name. Now from everything I've read and researched,I personally believe the divine name is Yehowah, thus the translation Jehovah would be correct.   

You preferring the spelling Yahweh is fine with me. After all, who am I to dispute something even the experts disagree on. There's obviously a chance Yahweh may be right.

But I did many hours of research and turned up the evidence of Theophoric names and Hebrew Poetry, so I believe the evidence is now with Yehowah, and the translation Jehovah.


----------



## Will Galen

hobbs27 said:


> The most obvious proof that Jehovah's Witnesses spell YHWH wrong as "Jehovah" is the fact that the letter "J" doesn't even exist in Hebrew, Greek, Latin. Further, the English language did not have a letter "J" before about 1500 AD. For example, the very first edition of the KJV printed in 1611 AD, contained no "J". Not even one! Instead the letter "I" is used for Jew, Jesus, Joshua, Joanna, John AND the person pronoun "I". Instead these words were written in 1611 AD as, Iew, Iesus, Ioshua, Ioanna, Iohn.



How is it proof that Jehovah's Witnesses spell the name Jehovah wrong when all Hebrew names were changed in spelling, even Jesus? We are just spelling names the accepted way for our day.


----------



## hobbs27

Will Galen said:


> How is it proof that Jehovah's Witnesses spell the name Jehovah wrong when all Hebrew names were changed in spelling, even Jesus? We are just spelling names the accepted way for our day.



Not a big deal is it?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> The most obvious proof that Jehovah's Witnesses spell YHWH wrong as "Jehovah" is the fact that the letter "J" doesn't even exist in Hebrew, Greek, Latin. Further, the English language did not have a letter "J" before about 1500 AD. For example, the very first edition of the KJV printed in 1611 AD, contained no "J". Not even one! Instead the letter "I" is used for Jew, Jesus, Joshua, Joanna, John AND the person pronoun "I". Instead these words were written in 1611 AD as, Iew, Iesus, Ioshua, Ioanna, Iohn. In a stunning admission, Jehovah's witnesses tell us that the reason they continue to use "Jehovah" instead of the correct spelling Yahweh, is to be pleasing to man, not God.



Why make a big deal about the English translation of Jehovah for YHWH and not Jesus for Yeshua? Why not at least call Jesus "Joshua?"

Jehovah's Witnesses aren't the only one's who pronounce names wrong.


----------



## centerpin fan

Will Galen said:


> The Encyclopaedia Britannica states: [Paraphrased]
> Emperor Constantine ... personally proposed the formula expressing the relationship of Christ to God as of being of one substance with the father. [Paraphrased]



I seriously doubt that.  That's like saying the Dallas Cowboys' cheerleaders first proposed the no-huddle offense.  They may have been at the game when it was first used, but they sure as shootin' didn't propose it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Will Galen said:


> That’s very true. The Trinity doctrine had it’s beginning at the First Council of Nicaea in 325. C.E. The pagan emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea because he wanted both political and religious unity in his empire.
> 
> The Encyclopaedia Britannica states: [Paraphrased]
> Emperor Constantine presided, and guided the discussions. He also personally proposed the formula expressing the relationship of Christ to God as of being of one substance with the father.
> 
> Thus the Trinity first begin in the mind of a pagan. [Pagans of that time believed in trinities of Gods.]
> 
> Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying.
> 
> Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: “That Constantine, worshipped the Unconquered Sun. [Paraphrased]



Trinitarians figure there can't be two gods so they justify the Trinity as a way around it. They believe that Jesus the spirit became Jesus the man at his incarnation.

Oneness believe God the Father became God the man at the incarnation.

Now if Jesus was a God in John 1:1 and was not an equal but distinct part of the Godhead, who do you believe he was? 
If the Word was a God, who was he? Was he with God the Father from eternity? 

Oneness makes way more sense than Jesus being with God or Jesus being a God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Matthew 24:8
All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Birth pains and the "end" all in one chapter. Maybe the end was the beginning.
I'm pretty sure the "end" described in Matthew 24 has passed.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Why make a big deal about the English translation of Jehovah for YHWH and not Jesus for Yeshua? Why not at least call Jesus "Joshua?"
> 
> Jehovah's Witnesses aren't the only one's who pronounce names wrong.



I agree.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I agree.



But in their defense we are equally wrong. We as other Christians don't like them calling God Jehovah yet we call Joshua "Jesus." 
Suddenly names don't matter as long as we worship the correct one true God. Now if it doesn't matter perhaps we are all correct that he is the "Great Architect."

Next we debate the "end times." Does it really matter that much? If it has already happened or if it's in the future?
What does it really do about our salvation? We're not actually going to get their spiritually until we die a physical death. Does it matter if we sleep in the ground a few thousand years? Does it matter if we go to Heaven and come back to the Earth?

The Kingdom. Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven. Is it now? Is it spiritual? Will it be physical? Will it be on the earth? Is it already here?
How does it affect our salvation from eternal death?

Then comes the "Trinity" or who Yeshua really is. If one believes Jesus is the Son of God who died for their sins, does it matter if he was with God in spirit or only with God in Word? 
Does it matter if God incarnate as man or if the always spirit of Jesus incarnate as man? 
Does it matter if Jesus' spirit who became Son of God preexisted as Michael or that his spirit was created with his humans existence?
Does it matter that God only became Jesus at the incarnation?
If one truly believes Jesus died for his sins?

If salvation offers eternal life, does it really matter if this life will be in a New Heaven or the Old Heaven?  Does it matter what happens to the others, those who don't receive eternal life?


----------



## hobbs27

Art, I don't care if they use the name Jehovah to describe God...they do.  The fact that they are wrong about it just shows that they are not perfect in theology as they claim to be. That was my point.

 Now for end times. It matters, more about knowing God than being a child of God....IMO


----------



## hobbs27

Another thought on Gods name. Three times in the NT He is referred to as Abba Father...translated would be more like Daddy.

Maybe it's more respectful to refer to God as Daddy than Yahweh or Jehovah. Does anyone refer to their biological dad by their name? 
As a child of God, I will just call Him Abba Father or  Daddy.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

can't get a reply to my question, I guess.  

What is the correct interpretation of John 1:1, according to JW doctrine?


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> can't get a reply to my question, I guess.
> 
> What is the correct interpretation of John 1:1, according to JW doctrine?



Hobbs asked Will to give us "His" beliefs in his words. I think that maybe JW's are so well instructed in "witnessing" that they aren't allowed to do this.

I've noticed Oneness Pentecostals are very well instructed in their indoctrination. Well I guess all denominations are to some extent. Most folks just ignore certain beliefs of their prospective denominations if they don't agree with them.
When there become to many disagreements, one looks elsewhere for fellowship. 

I asked Will about John 1:1 also;

Now if Jesus was a God in John 1:1 and was not an equal but distinct part of the Godhead, who do you believe he was?
If the Word was a God, who was he? Was he with God the Father from eternity? 
If Jesus was with his Father before his incarnation, who was he? 
If he was a god but not the God, why isn't that worshiping two Gods? Oneness ask this same question of Trinitarians.

Thus why they call it "Oneness" and God the Father, the only "one" becomes Jesus. They see God the Father becoming Jesus the man. They too don't believe Jesus was with God in John 1:1 but in Word only. 
They believe God actually became Jesus at the Incarnation.


----------



## obligated

NWT "John 1:1 In the beginning the Word was,and the Word was with God,and the Word was a God."
Watchtower teaching is Jesus was in the heavens with his father Jehovah(Yahweh,YHWH take your pick)and was a God in the heavens with his father but not equal.
Jesus plainly stated the father was greater than him in scripture.
I would worry more about things that prohibit me from entering the Kingdom that is plainly stated in many translations.In the end a God of mercy,understanding and love will be more than fair to followers of his bibles teachings.Those that made money off it or twisted or added or took from it......lets just say God doesnt like being mocked and his son takes a dim view on peddlers of Gods word or wolves fleecing the flock.There are examples all through the scriptures of those who listened and those that didnt and the rewards or penalties.
My issue with Watchtower corporation for the most part is its greed and corruption yet they have the nerve to point at other faiths with an accusing finger.Then the Pedophiles being protected was the last straw.I have two sons and two grandsons.I dont want them around that type of filth.


----------



## Artfuldodger

obligated said:


> NWT "John 1:1 In the beginning the Word was,and the Word was with God,and the Word was a God."
> Watchtower teaching is Jesus was in the heavens with his father Jehovah(Yahweh,YHWH take your pick)and was a God in the heavens with his father but not equal.
> Jesus plainly stated the father was greater than him in scripture.
> I would worry more about things that prohibit me from entering the Kingdom that is plainly stated in many translations.In the end a God of mercy,understanding and love will be more than fair to followers of his bibles teachings.Those that made money off it or twisted or added or took from it......lets just say God doesnt like being mocked and his son takes a dim view on peddlers of Gods word or wolves fleecing the flock.There are examples all through the scriptures of those who listened and those that didnt and the rewards or penalties.
> My issue with Watchtower corporation for the most part is its greed and corruption yet they have the nerve to point at other faiths with an accusing finger.Then the Pedophiles being protected was the last straw.I have two sons and two grandsons.I dont want them around that type of filth.



 "I would worry more about things that prohibit me from entering the Kingdom that is plainly stated in many translations."

Plainly stated but followed by "and such were some of you, but you were washed."

If there are "things" that keep a Christian out of the Kingdom that the blood of Jesus didn't wash, we should all worry.

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.


----------



## Will Galen

NE GA Pappy said:


> So exactly how would you say John 1:1 should be translated?



John 1:1, 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Will Galen said:


> John 1:1, 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.



Will, it this is a correct interpretation, then it leaves me with a unresolved question.

Is Jesus a true God, or a false God?


----------



## obligated

Artfuldodger said:


> "I would worry more about things that prohibit me from entering the Kingdom that is plainly stated in many translations."
> 
> Plainly stated but followed by "and such were some of you, but you were washed."
> 
> If there are "things" that keep a Christian out of the Kingdom that the blood of Jesus didn't wash, we should all worry.
> 
> Galatians 5:1
> It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.



The Demons and Satan know gods laws but are condemned.Just because we say we are christian doesnt give us a free pass to practice sin.God wont be mocked.Practicing sin and expecting salvation is a fools errand.Scripture clearly states those that dont inherit the kingdom.Christs blood gives us a salvation IF we respect Gods laws and the sacrifice.Practicing sin isnt showing devotion or respect to God or his sons sacrifice.


----------



## Will Galen

NE GA Pappy said:


> Will, it this is a correct interpretation, then it leaves me with a unresolved question.
> 
> Is Jesus a true God, or a false God?



Jesus answers that question himself.
(John 17:1-5) Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, 2just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him. 3This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. 4I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

The above is a prayer of Jesus’ to his father just hours before he died. As you can see Jesus refers to his father as the only true God. That obviously means Jesus doesn't see himself as part of a Trinity.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Will Galen said:


> Jesus answers that question himself.
> (John 17:1-5) Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, 2just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him. 3This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. 4I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.
> 
> The above is a prayer of Jesus’ to his father just hours before he died. As you can see Jesus refers to his father as the only true God. That obviously means Jesus doesn't see himself as part of a Trinity.




So, you are saying that Jesus is a God, just not a true God.  Jesus is a false God that shouldn't be followed or believed?


----------



## hobbs27

I think they believe Jesus is a mere Angel..Michael to be exact...they believe Angels are gods.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

hobbs27 said:


> I think they believe Jesus is a mere Angel..Michael to be exact...they believe Angels are gods.



There is one true God, and millions of false gods. There are also angels, none of whom claimed to be a god.


----------



## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> There is one true God, and millions of false gods. There are also angels, none of whom claimed to be a god.



Yep!


----------



## Artfuldodger

John 14:28
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

Isaiah 42:1
"Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

1 Peter 2:4
As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him--

Hebrews 5:8-9
8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered,9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

Luke 2:52
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

If Jesus was a distinct 1/3rd of the Eternal always being persona or person of the Godhead, how was he chosen by his Father to be our Savior? How was it possible for him to do the will of his Father instead of his will? How was it possible for God to put his Spirit in Jesus? How did Jesus gain obedience to his Father and his Father's pleasure in the form of pleasing his Father?
Who did God choose Jesus from or among whom? Where was the human spirit of Jesus in John 1:1?
How was it possible for Jesus to be a servant to an equal part of the Godhead? If all three personas are distinct but equal?
How could God love the world so much that he gave us his Son if his Son was equal to him? If his Son didn't have the freewill to do his will instead of the will of his Father? Jesus did the will of his Father, not his own will. He had a choice. God "gave" us his son. His son had to be a different spirit in order for this to happen. He had to be a different person for God to place his Spirit in or upon. God did not put his Spirit upon himself or a distinct other part of himself. He chose and placed his spirit upon his son.

God gave us his Son. His Son did the will of his Father. There is no way God could have given us his son if his Son was a part of the Godhead. Jesus had to have his own spirit. Where was this spirit before he came to the earth and among whom was it chosen by God?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Where is this 1/3 but equal person of the Godhead since the Ascension? I believe he is sitting at the right hand of God.
Now perhaps this is just a way for us to see this setup as Jesus might be in spirit form and not really sitting at the right hand of God who is also a Spirit. Yet is does clearly show that God the Father is the one true God totally in charge and that his Son Jesus is below him a little at his side higher than the angels. Still doing the will of his Father from the confines of his own spirit.

When we become like Jesus, we will see him as he is. Wow talk about unity. I think it's gonna be great, perhaps somewhat of a surprise.


----------



## Will Galen

Artfuldodger said:


> . . .  names don't matter as long as we worship the correct one true God.



God’s name matters!
As Pappy says in post 390 there is one true God and millions of false gods. Thus we need to know God's name to worship the correct one. 

God had his  personal name written down about 7,000 times in the original Bible writings. That shows God’s personal name is important to him. Jesus also thought it was important. In the Lords prayer the first thing he instructs us to pray for is for God’s name to be sanctified/hallowed, thus it should be important to us also!

The reason Jesus gave us those instructions is because Eve believed a slanderous lie told to her by Satan the Devil.

(Genesis 3:1-5)  Now the serpent was the most cautious of all the wild animals of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it said to the woman: “Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?” 2At this the woman said to the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden. 3But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden: ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.’” 4At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die. 5For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.” 

By telling Eve she would not die after God had said she would, the Devil in effect accused God of lying. Furthermore, by telling Eve she would be like God and know good and bad the clear implication was she wouldn’t need God and his rules, she and Adam could rule themselves. So the Devil was also implying God was a bad ruler. Thus the first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty, on God’s right to be mankind’s absolute ruler.

Thus when we pray for God’s name to be sanctified/hallowed we are praying for God to clear his name of the Devil’s slanderous lies.

In our day many denominations that sponsor new Bible translations pressure scholars and translation committees into removing God’s name from their translations of the Bible and replacing it with titles such as God and Lord.

However, God’s title’s don’t accurately and adequately represent his personal name with it’s wealth of sacred associations. The revisers of the American Standard Bible recognized that the name Jehovah accomplished this. That translation committee said in it’s preface; 

[Paraphased] “The American Revisers, are unanimous that a Jewish superstition, that regarded God’s name Jehovah as too sacred to be uttered, should no longer be the case. We have restored the name to the sacred text to which it has an unquestionable claim.” Thus their Bible translation uses God’s name Jehovah thousands of time.

Translators that omit the divine name from their translations of the Bible do their translations a serious disservice in replacing God’s name with titles. 

Their reasons for doing so are varied. One of the reasons one translation committee gave for not using the divine name was that the use of any proper name for the one and only God, was discontinued before the Christian era and is entirely inappropriate for the Christian Church.

Their contention that the use of God’s proper name was discontinued before the Christian era is not true. Jesus said in prayer to his Father at John 17:26, “I have made your name known to them [his followers] and will make it known.” Jesus thus taught his followers to pray for God’s name to be sanctified. That would have made little sense to his followers if they didn’t know God’s name, and thus use it in prayer.

Jesus taught crowds that numbered ‘five thousand men as well as women and young children.’ Thus Jesus made God’s name known to people who would live well into the Christian era. (See Matthew 14:21; 15;38; 16:9,10; Mark 6:34,44.)

On the very day the Christian congregation was formed, on Pentecost 33 C.E., the apostle Peter, quoting from a prophecy of Joel, said to a  multitude of Jews and proselytes: “Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” The apostle Paul later repeated those same words. (Acts 2:21; Joel 2:32; Romans 10:13.)

Later, about the middle of the first century C.E., the disciple James said to the elders in Jerusalem: “Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.” (Acts 15:14) It would not be logical for James to make such a statement if no one in the middle of the first century knew or used God’s name.

Thus the Bible itself shows God’s name would have been used by thousands of Jesus disciples. The apostle John was the last living apostle and he died about 100 C.E. No doubt some of the thousands of people Jesus taught lived even longer. This shows God’s name was in use well into the Christian era. It was after that that the name fell into disuse.

One translation committee said it’s inappropriate to use God’s proper name. Jehovah obviously doesn’t agree because he had his proper name written down in the Bible about 7,000 times. And why would the Bible tell us those who call on the name Jehovah will be saved? You can’t call on God’s name and be saved if you don’t know it, can you? That’s actually the case with some church goers.

It’s obvious from the numerous amount of times God’s name appears in the original scriptures, and from what the Bible says about the Divine name, that our Creator wanted people to know it and use it. (See the heading: A few examples showing the importance of the Divine Name in post 365) 

At Exodus 3:15 God told Moses, “‘Jehovah . . .  is my name . . . and this is how I am to be remembered . . .”

We see God himself said he wanted to be known by his name Jehovah! Thus the Jews were positively, unequivocally, wrong in forbidding it’s usage, and so are modern denominations and translators that remove God’s name from the book he authored!

Who gave anyone the authority to deliberately remove God’s name from the Bible, a name God said he wants to be remembered by, and instead use his titles? 

Jesus says at Revelation 22:19,19, “I am bearing witness to everyone . . . if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll.” (See also Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32, and Proverbs 30:5,6)

Good Day!


----------



## Artfuldodger

I thought we established earlier that adding vowels to "YHVH" was mere speculation of how we think YHVH should be pronounced.

While we're at it, why isn't the same importance emphasized on the pronunciation of Yeshua?


----------



## Will Galen

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought we established earlier that adding vowels to "YHVH" was mere speculation of how we think YHVH should be pronounced.



I said that it couldn't be proved conclusively one way or another. 

However I also said evidence from the Bible indicates Yehowah is the correct name of God. Note I said evidence from the Bible itself indicates this, not what some scholar thinks other sources mean.

What Evidence? Names given to children were often combined with El (meaning â€œGodâ€�) or an abbreviation of the divine name Jehovah. Some examples found in the Bible are;

Elnathan (God Has Given), 
Eldad (possibly, God Has Loved),
Jehozabad (probably, Jehovah Has Endowed), 
Jehozadak (probably, Jehovah Pronounces Righteous).

There are dozens of such names in the Bible which provides evidence of how Godâ€™s name was pronounced. 

Also Hebrew poetry is said to always use a word with three syllables in it so it rhymes with the divine name.
Thus the Bible itself gives evidence that the ancient pronunciation of Godâ€™s name is Yehowah, and not the two syllable Yahweh. Jehovah has the same vowels as Yehowah.

God's the one that confused men's languages when they were building the Tower of Babel, so he clearly expects us to pronounce his name the way it's commonly pronounced in one's language. The name Jehovah's been in common usage in English for hundreds of years.



> While we're at it, why isn't the same importance emphasized on the pronunciation of Yeshua?



The New Testament is written in Greek, Jesus is thus translated from the Latin form of  I·e·sous which corresponds to the Hebrew Yeshua.

And just like the name Jehovah it has been in common usage for hundreds of years. So thereâ€™s no need for us to change it.

If such a change were made, then, to be consistent, changes should be made in the spelling and pronunciation of a host of other names found in the Scriptures. For example, Jeremiah would be changed to Yir·meyahÊ¹, Isaiah would become Yesha.Ê½

Good Day!


----------



## Artfuldodger

Will Galen said:


> I said that it couldn't be proved conclusively one way or another.
> 
> However I also said evidence from the Bible indicates Yehowah is the correct name of God. Note I said evidence from the Bible itself indicates this, not what some scholar thinks other sources mean.
> 
> What Evidence? Names given to children were often combined with El (meaning â€œGodâ€�) or an abbreviation of the divine name Jehovah. Some examples found in the Bible are;
> 
> Elnathan (God Has Given),
> Eldad (possibly, God Has Loved),
> Jehozabad (probably, Jehovah Has Endowed),
> Jehozadak (probably, Jehovah Pronounces Righteous).
> 
> There are dozens of such names in the Bible which provides evidence of how Godâ€™s name was pronounced.
> 
> Also Hebrew poetry is said to always use a word with three syllables in it so it rhymes with the divine name.
> Thus the Bible itself gives evidence that the ancient pronunciation of Godâ€™s name is Yehowah, and not the two syllable Yahweh. Jehovah has the same vowels as Yehowah.
> 
> God's the one that confused men's languages when they were building the Tower of Babel, so he clearly expects us to pronounce his name the way it's commonly pronounced in one's language. The name Jehovah's been in common usage in English for hundreds of years.
> 
> 
> 
> The New Testament is written in Greek, Jesus is thus translated from the Latin form of  I·e·sous which corresponds to the Hebrew Yeshua.
> 
> And just like the name Jehovah it has been in common usage for hundreds of years. So thereâ€™s no need for us to change it.
> 
> If such a change were made, then, to be consistent, changes should be made in the spelling and pronunciation of a host of other names found in the Scriptures. For example, Jeremiah would be changed to Yir·meyahÊ¹, Isaiah would become Yesha.Ê½
> 
> Good Day!



It appears that the justification is that after we use a certain name for hundreds of years then that makes it OK to use that pronunciation such as in your Jeremiah example.
Couldn't this same justification be used to celebrate Christmas and Easter on Pagan holidays? We've been doing it for hundreds of years, let's continue.

I don't see the biblical evidence in your justification of adding vowels to YHWH. You've taken great liberty in doing so. It's a good justification though.

I think I'll start calling him Father. He told me he was more concerned with what was in my heart than trying to figure out how people pronounced his name in an Old English dialect hundreds of years ago. 

"Jehovah has the same vowels as Yehowah" so there's no reason to change the Y to a J. When people around the world learned about Father and Son, is it really wrong for them to add their pronunciations or letters that sound like other languages letters? Such as Hereth for Jerez? What about pronouncing Jerez the way it's spelled instead of the way the Spanish say it? 

God did give us different languages but he also had us keep them. I don't believe he minds if we say his name differently in our own language or spell it differently to help us pronounce it correctly.

It's also ironic that you justify calling Yeshua, "Jesus" because Jesus is derived from the Greek translation from the Latin form of  I·e·sous. You use examples of why it's OK to keep Jesus and Jeremiah because of translations and hundreds of years of usage, but not OK to use "God" for those same reasons.


----------



## Will Galen

Artfuldodger said:


> It appears that the justification is that after we use a certain name for hundreds of years then that makes it OK to use that pronunciation such as in your Jeremiah example.



Jeremiah example? I’ll take it you mean Jehovah.

The use of the name Jehovah doesn’t need justification. It’s a translation from Hebrew into English. What you would need is justification for changing it to something else. 

However, conclusive proof of the pronunciation of the divine name isn’t available. All the outside evidence conflicts. Bible names give evidence of how the divine name was pronounced but that too isn’t conclusive proof. 

Thus we stay with the currant pronunciation, not because it’s been in use for hundreds of years, but because there isn’t any justification to change it.



> Couldn't this same justification be used to celebrate Christmas and Easter on Pagan holidays? We've been doing it for hundreds of years, let's continue.



In the case of the divine name there’s no justification to change it. However there is 
justification to stop celebrating holidays that have pagan rituals. God tells us to!

2 Corinthians 6:14-17 says, . . . For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? 15Further, what harmony is there between Christ and BeÊ¹li·al? [Satan] . . . Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? . . . 17“‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing.’”

Putting a new name on a holiday that has pagan rituals doesn’t make the holiday clean. Jehovah makes all these comparisons to show he doesn’t want his people sharing in such celebrations. He tells us, “Quit touching the unclean thing.”

As an example say you went over to a buddies house. He’s recently bought the land next door, and he’s just finished pulling down an old outhouse. He’s found some   silverware in the out house and he washes them off with the hose and wipes them dry with a paper towel, then says, “They look fine,” and toss’s them on a nearby picnic table.

Meanwhile your buddies wife has been churring homemade ice cream. She brings both you and your buddy a bowl of ice cream, then picks up spoons from the picnic table and shoves them into the ice cream and hand them to the two of you. Your buddy begins to eat, but how about you?

It would be impossible for most people because they know where those spoons came from and as far as they are concerned those spoons tainted the ice cream too. The fact is a lot of people wouldn’t eat with those spoons even if they knew the spoons had been boiled in water for hours.

The point is God sees holidays with pagan rituals the same way most people saw the spoons and ice cream, they are unclean, and they can’t be cleaned up enough to make him think otherwise.

Does it matter that these holidays have been celebrated for hundreds of years? Not in God’s eyes and his is the viewpoint we ourselves need to have.



> I don't see the biblical evidence in your justification of adding vowels to YHWH. You've taken great liberty in doing so. It's a good justification though.



Whichever scholar’s first translated the name as Jehovah is responsible for that. Jehovah’s Witnesses didn’t come up with the name Jehovah, and they didn’t come up with the vowels either.



> I think I'll start calling him Father. He told me he was more concerned with what was in my heart than trying to figure out how people pronounced his name in an Old English dialect hundreds of years ago.



Okay, but the Bible does say God pays attention even if a person just thinks about his name.



> Jehovah has the same vowels as Yehowah so there's no reason to change the Y to a J. When people around the world learned about Father and Son, is it really wrong for them to add their pronunciations or letters that sound like other languages letters? Such as Hereth for Jerez? What about pronouncing Jerez the way it's spelled instead of the way the Spanish say it?
> 
> God did give us different languages but he also had us keep them. I don't believe he minds if we say his name differently in our own language or spell it differently to help us pronounce it correctly.



That’s what I’ve been saying. Good to know you agree with me.


----------



## hobbs27

Do JW's believe the seven days of creation were seven thousand years per day, and that God created Adam in 4026 BC?


----------



## hobbs27

We are told the only way to our daddy ABBA , The Father is through the Son.
 How do JW's go through the Son to get to Daddy Abba ?


----------



## apoint

I tell any denomination, " What denomination was Jesus"? That is what I am...
 Im not well liked in some arenas but im in good company.


----------



## Will Galen

apoint said:


> I tell any denomination, " What denomination was Jesus"? That is what I am...
> Im not well like in some arenas but im in good company.



Jesus was an Israelite in a nation that dedicated itself to God, thus he was under the Mosaic Law. He wasn't a Christian. Christians get the name Christian by being followers of Jesus.

Thus Jesus wasn't in a denomination, he actually started the Christian religion, thus he's the head of it.

Denominations came about by people apostatizing from true Christianity, but still calling themselves Christians.

They all use the same Bible, but they all interpret it differently. Thus the latest I heard there are about 41,000 denominations calling themselves Christian.


----------



## apoint

Will Galen said:


> Jesus was an Israelite in a nation that dedicated itself to God, thus he was under the Mosaic Law. He wasn't a Christian. Christians get the name Christian by being followers of Jesus.
> 
> Thus Jesus wasn't in a denomination, he actually started the Christian religion, thus he's the head of it.
> 
> Denominations came about by people apostatizing from true Christianity, but still calling themselves Christians.
> 
> They all use the same Bible, but they all interpret it differently. Thus the latest I heard there are about 41,000 denominations calling themselves Christian.


---------------------------------------------------------------
  You miss read me. Then go to prove my point.
 41K divisions from Christ.  
 My point was Jesus did not have a denomination, like in nondenominational...
 My religion is the one Jesus taught..  The Kingdom Of GOD...


----------



## Will Galen

*What Jehovah’s Witnesses believe about, “Once saved, always saved.”*

Sometimes when a Witness talks to someone at their door the person will say they have already been saved. What the person is referring to is the teaching called â€œFree Grace Theology,â€� or as some now refer to it as the doctrine of â€œEternal Security.â€�This belief is often summarized as, â€œonce saved, always saved.â€�

"Free Grace Theology,â€� teaches that once you accept Jesus as your savior you can either slide away or commit serious sin, even deny Jesus yet you will still be saved and receive the free gift of everlasting life.  

The above belief is based on John 3:16, which says, â€œFor God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.â€�

Thus some denominations teach their congregation that once a person has believed, meaning accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, they are forever saved. However, this is not at all what the Bible says, thus this is false doctrine.

Reasoning on the Scriptures
Since our Creator has provided us with a sizable instruction manual known as the Bible. Why would anyone believe that just applying one scripture from that Bible is all thatâ€™s actually needed for salvation?

Itâ€™s true that believing that Christ Jesus is our Lord and Savior is something required by God. However, the Bible shows there are other requirements also. For example when the apostle John wrote the book of John it was in letter form, not like the chapter and verse we read today. Thus there is no reason to single out John 3:16 over other scriptural requirements 

Note what John says twenty verses after John 3:16 at John 3:36, â€œWhoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the â€˜wrathâ€™ of God remains on him.â€� (ASV) 

The online dictionary at, http://dictionary.reference.com/ defines â€˜wrathâ€™ as; 1. strong, stern, or fierce anger; deeply resentful indignation; ire. 2. vengeance or punishment as the consequence of anger.. . . divine vengeance or retribution. 

Lets read those two scriptures again, one after the other;

John 3:16 says, â€œFor God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.â€�

John 3:36 says, â€œWhoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the â€˜wrathâ€™ of God remains on him.â€� (ASV) 

Both John 3:16, and 3:36 are written by the apostle John. They are both in the 3rd Chapter of the book of John where he is talking about everlasting life, and both scriptures say that belief in the son is needed for everlasting life. The difference is that the apostle John adds in verse 36 that obedience is also needed.

Since John wrote both these scriptures in the same chapter, why would anyone single out John 3:16 as all one needs to do to be saved? 

From the above we see this isnâ€™t a case of taking something out of context, John is writing about everlasting life and heâ€™s emphasizing that you need to believe Jesus is Lord and Savior, and since God has given everything into Jesusâ€™ hand that you also need to obey Jesus to receive everlasting life.

Free Grace Theology says, all you need to do to receive everlasting life is accept Jesus as your savior. The Free Grace doctrine says that Christians can fall away, commit serious sin, and even deny Jesus. Further even if they are faithless . . . they will enter into eternal life. Notice what the Bible says about those â€˜Free Graceâ€™ statements.

As to denying the Lord, note Jesus words at John 3:4-6. 
â€œRemain joined to me, and I will remain joined to you . . . 5 â€œI am the vine. You are the branches. . . . 6 If anyone does not remain joined to me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and dries up. Branches like those are picked up. They are thrown into the fire and burned.â€� ((NIRV)

Another Bible translation, puts John 15:6, much the same way: â€œIf anyone separates from me, he is thrown away like a useless branch, withers, and is gathered into a pile with all the others and burned.â€� (TLB)

So we see that the Free Grace doctrine is wrong. Anyone that denies, separates, or doesnâ€™t remain in union with Jesus doesnâ€™t receive mere discipline, they receive death.

As for those being faithless still receiving eternal life, notice what Jude 1:5 says, 
â€œI want to remind you of something you already know very well. The Lord, who once saved a people out of Egypt, later destroyed those who didnâ€™t maintain their faith.â€� (CEB)

Jude is talking about the Israelite's that God brought out of Egypt. They went though the ten plagues, saw what God did to Pharaoh and his army at the Red Sea, were provided water out of rocks. Daily they were fed with manna, and daily they were led by a pillar of smoke during the day and a pillar of fire at night. (Exodus 13:21,22)
They saw Godâ€™s saving works, yet they became afraid and faithless when ten of the twelve spies sent to spy out the promised land reported people of enormous size living there.

They were so faithless they talked of appointing a leader for themselves, and returning to Egypt. Then they talked of stoning Moses and Aaron and the two spies that returned with a favorable report. Incensed, God made the Israelite's wander around in the wilderness for 40 years, until all those who were faithless died. (See Numbers 14:1-38, Hebrews 3:7-19, Deuteronomy 1:22-39, Psalm 106;26)

Judeâ€™s warning example would be pointless for us if Christians did not face a similar danger of losing faith and being destroyed. (See Hebrews 3:7-19)

The Bible has many examples showing the Free Grace doctrine is untrue. So anyone that believes that doctrine, please, please, please, rethink that position because more is needed for the gift of everlasting life than just believing and accepting that Jesus is our Lord and Savior!
---

There are many scriptures that show we have to be obedient to both God and his son Christ Jesus. For example, notice what Jesus says in these scriptures. 

Luke 6:46. â€œWhy, then, do YOU call me â€˜Lord! Lord!â€™ but do not do the things I say?

Matthew 7:21-23, â€œNot everyone saying to me, â€˜Lord, Lord,â€™ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22Many will say to me in that day, â€˜Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?â€™ 23And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.â€�

Note that these people accept Jesus as their savior because they call him their Lord, and do works in his name. Yet he asks them, 6â€œWhy, then, do YOU call me â€˜Lord! Lord!â€™ but do not do the things I say?â€�

Even though they have done all these works in his name he tells them, â€œI never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.â€�

What is lawlessness? The apostle John showed lawlessness was the same as sin when he wrote: â€œEveryone who practices sin is also practicing lawlessness, and so sin is lawlessness.â€� (1John 3:4)

How were the above people that called Jesus â€˜Lord, Lord,â€™ sinning? The simple answer is they werenâ€™t obeying him. Thus the reason Jesus says to them, â€œWhy, then, do YOU call me â€˜Lord! Lord!â€™ but do not do the things I say?â€�

What happens to those practicing lawlessness? In the parable of the weeds and wheat found at Matthew 13:40-43, Jesus says those practicing lawlessness will be pitched into a fiery furnace. Letâ€™s read that parable.

(Matthew 13:36-42) . . . His [Jesusâ€™] disciples came to him and said: â€œExplain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.â€� 37In response he said: â€œThe sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.

Note that the people who are practicing lawlessness are collected out of his kingdom and pitched into the fiery furnace. At Matthew 7:23 Jesus calls those not obeying him workers of lawlessness. So we see that rather than a Free Grace Theology where everyone that believes in Jesus will live forever, only those â€œbelieving and obeyingâ€� will live forever.
---

Another point. If all thatâ€™s needed for salvation is belief and acceptance of Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior, as the Free Grace doctrine teaches, why does Hebrews 5:9 say that Jesus â€œbecame responsible for everlasting salvation to all those [obeying him?â€�]
---

First Corinthians 6:9-10 says, â€œDo not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit Godâ€™s kingdom.â€�

Did you notice that scripture warns us emphatically, â€œDo not be misled.â€� Then It lists sins that keep even those that believe in Christ Jesus from inheriting Godâ€™s Kingdom.
---

In his second letter to the Corinthians, the apostle Paul says at 2 Corinthians 12:21, â€œI am afraid God will make me ashamed when I visit you again. I will feel like crying because many of you have never given up your old sins. You are still doing things that are immoral, indecent, and shameful. (CEV)

In the scripture above, Paul is writing to the Corinthian congregation. These are people that have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior and publicly given proof of that by being baptized. Yet they are still practicing their former sins, that means they will not be inheriting Godâ€™s Kingdom.

There would really be nothing for Paul to cry about if all Christians had to do is believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior. However, Paul knew that even if you believe in and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, if you still practice sin and donâ€™t repent of it you WILL NOT inherit Godâ€™s kingdom.

The Bible shows that Paul himself worried about losing everlasting life. Would he worry about it if it couldnâ€™t happen? At 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 he says, â€œDo you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."

Notice that Paul compares those running a race to Christians running for the prize that lasts forever, meaning everlasting life. Paul says heâ€™s leads his body as a slave so that he will not be disqualified for that prize. The apostle Paul was picked as an apostle to the nations by Christ Jesus so he obviously believed Christ Jesus was his Lord and Savior, yet he knew that he could lose the prize of everlasting life if he disqualified himself somehow. If the apostle Paul could lose out on everlasting life somehow, itâ€™s very apparent that we could also.
---

Another example. In the apostle Paulâ€™s first letter to the Corinthian congregation, he says, â€œBut now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. â€œ. . . Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.â€� (1 Corinthians 5:11-13)

Why go to the trouble of removing someone from the congregation if they have already been saved? The truth is even if you believe and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior but you continue to, or go back to practicing sin, you are regarded as wicked and the congregation is instructed to remove you. Ecclesiastical terms for doing this are called excommunication, or disfellowshipping, literally meaning to exclude you from the congregation and not have association with you. 

Congregations are instructed to do this because if the wicked are not removed, new ones in the congregation will think that sort of lifestyle is okay. In other words the idiom, â€˜one rotten apple spoils the whole barrel,â€™ would/could apply. 
---

A man once asked Jesus: â€œLord, are those who are being saved few?â€� How did Jesus reply? Did he say: â€˜Just accept me as your Lord and Savior, and you will be savedâ€™? No! Jesus said: â€œExert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able.â€� Luke 13:23,24.

If salvation is as easy as just believing in Christ Jesus, why did he say to exert yourselves vigorously? And why if all it takes for salvation is to believe in Jesus as our savior, why will many seek to be saved and not be able? 

Doesnâ€™t it stand to reason if you are trying to be saved you believe in Jesus as your savior? Again, if so, why are many not being saved? 

The obvious answer it takes more than just accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. We have to obey Jesus and do what he do tells us to do. Most all denominations do not obey Jesusâ€™ command found at Matthew 2:19,20. There he told his disciples, to go and make more disciples.
---

The Bible book of Jude is a short one of just 26 verses. Itâ€™s addressed to â€œcalled ones . . . preserved for Jesus Christ.â€�

Note the warning Jude gives here starting with verse 3, â€œBeloved ones, though I was making every effort to write you about the salvation we hold in common, I found it necessary to write you to exhort you to put up a hard fight for the faith . . . My reason is that certain men have slipped in . . . ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.â€�

Notice that Jude and those he is writing to hold a salvation in common. Does he say that because they had â€˜believed and accepted Jesus,â€™ that their salvation was sure? No, to the contrary heâ€™s exhorting them instead to put up a hard fight for the faith. Why? Because he knew that individual Christians could still lose the â€˜salvation they hold in common.â€™ 
---

How might we, like those ungodly men, turn Godâ€™s mercy â€œinto an excuse for loose conduct?â€� We could do so by assuming that Christâ€™s sacrifice covers deliberate sins that we intend to keep on committing (practicing) rather than sins of human imperfection that we are trying to put behind us.

An example of a deliberate sin that we intend to keep on committing would be living with someone like a married couple, without being married. (Fornication)
---

Another example found at 1 Peter 2:1, 2 says, â€œAccordingly, put away all badness and all deceitfulness and hypocrisy and envies and all sorts of backbiting, 2[and,] as newborn infants, form a longing for the unadulterated milk belonging to the word, that through it YOU may grow to salvation.â€�

Notice that Peter mentions growing to salvation. Why would Peter say that we have to grow to salvation if the one act, that of believing in Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior saves us? Obviously 'one act' doesnâ€™t, because more is needed.

To grow to salvation we need to apply John 17:3 where Jesus says, â€œThis means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.â€� 

Rather than the one act of believing in Christ Jesus saving us, we need to keep taking in knowledge of God and Jesus and grow to salvation by applying â€˜everythingâ€™ we learn to our lives.
---

At John 15:20, Jesus says, â€œA slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute YOU also . . .â€�

At 2 Timothy 3:12, the Apostle Paul says, â€œIn fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted.â€�

Speaking of his followers that are being persecuted, Jesus says at Matthew 10:22, â€œHe that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.â€�

Compare that statement to the Free Grace doctrine that says that the free gift of eternal life comes at the beginning of a Christians course when they first believe in Christ Jesus. 

So we see that rather than being saved at the beginning of their Christian course, as the Free Grace doctrine teaches, itâ€™s Christianâ€™s that endure to the end that will be saved.
---

Many people that believe the Free Grace doctrine or a similar doctrine have been told that â€œbelieving in Jesusâ€� is a single act and that our faith does not have to be strong enough to prompt obedience. But as you have seen the Bible shows otherwise. Thus the Free Grace Theology doctrine is a false religious teaching.

There are many more scriptures that show that there is more to being saved than merely believing and accepting Christ Jesus as our Lord and Savior. However from whatâ€™s been presented one should be able to see and realize this for themselves.

Believing and accepting Christ involves far more than just accepting the blessings that Jesusâ€™ sacrifice offers. Adam and Eve lost their lives because of disobedience. So why would God accept those who just â€˜accept Jesus as their saviorâ€™ and donâ€™t also obey him? Obviously he wouldnâ€™t!

Obedience is a requirement of everlasting life. So we must do more than simply hear and believe. The Bible says that we must â€œbecome doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving [ourselves] with false reasoning.â€� (James 1:22)

Salvation is a free gift from God. It cannot be earned. Yet it does require effort on our part. Romans 10:9,10 says,â€� . . . For if you publicly declare that â€˜word in your own mouth,â€™ that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.â€�

Thus true Christians are in a saved condition in that they are in an approved position before God. As a group, their salvation is sure. Individually, they must meet Godâ€™s requirements. We of course find Godâ€™s requirements in his word the Bible. 

The apostle Paul was inspired to write that â€œthe word of God is alive and exerts power.â€� (Hebrews 4:12) 

God's word does this when a person reads it and applies what he has read to his life. For example if you read in the Bible that God hates a liar, and you quit lying, the Bible has exerted power on you to better yourself in Godâ€™s eyes.

Godâ€™s word can change your life. It can motivate you to heartfelt acts of love, faith, and obedience. But you must do more than just â€œacceptâ€� mentally what the Bible says. You need to study it and let your heart be motivated by it to do what it says to do.

When something as vital as religious truth is involved itâ€™s imperative that we check all the facts, or as the Bible puts it, â€œMake sure of all things.â€� 1 Thessalonians 5:21

Good Day!


----------



## apoint

you don't think Im gonna read all that do ya?
 Copy paste is ok but not the whole book.
 Just get to the point, Im getting old.


----------



## Will Galen

apoint said:


> you don't think Im gonna read all that do ya?
> Copy paste is ok but not the whole book.
> Just get to the point, Im getting old.



Thank you, this is the second time I've been accused of copying and pasting blocks of text. 

The reason for the overkill is some people are hard to convince unless the evidence is overwhelming.  Of course some won't believe any evidence against what they have chosen to believe.


----------



## apoint

Will Galen said:


> Thank you, this is the second time I've been accused of copying and pasting blocks of text.
> 
> The reason for the overkill is some people are hard to convince unless the evidence is overwhelming.  Of course some won't believe any evidence against what they have chosen to believe.



Agreed, I think if you offer the whole book they still wont get it.


----------



## Will Galen

apoint said:


> Agreed, I think if you offer the whole book they still wont get it.



Most people listen to men, i.e., their preacher, priest, pastor, etc., instead of doing what the Good Book says to do. 

Yet it's still a Christians duty to preach the Good News of the Kingdom whether people listen or not.


----------



## Artfuldodger

What purpose does spreading the Gospel accomplish?


----------



## apoint

Artfuldodger said:


> What purpose does spreading the Gospel accomplish?



You have been on here several years so ill answer with a question. What is the Gospel?


----------



## Artfuldodger

apoint said:


> You have been on here several years so ill answer with a question. What is the Gospel?



I've heard it said that it's about God's Kingdom. This much is true but to me the gospel or Good News is our ticket to this Kingdom. 
This ticket comes in the form of salvation from believing Jesus died for our sins. The only way to receive this ticket is to repent or change one's mind from believing you can live good enough to believing you never can.
Once you believe you need Jesus, he shows up with your ticket.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> I've heard it said that it's about God's Kingdom. This much is true but to me the gospel or Good News is out ticket to this Kingdom.
> This ticket comes in the form of salvation from believing Jesus died for our sins. The only way to receive this ticket is to repent or changes one's mind from believing you can live good enough to believing you never can.
> Once you believe you need Jesus, he shows up with your ticket.



Backwards because:

1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.


----------



## apoint

Gospel : The teaching of Christ, the Good News.
 " It is the Churches mission to preach the Gospel."
    "First the Jew then the gentile."
Jesus only taught, " The Kingdom Of GOD"...


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Backwards because:
> 
> 1 John 4:19
> We love him, because he first loved us.



I never said which came first and thus my question.
I've often wondered why the JW's in my neighborhood don't go to India or Africa instead. Living and growing up in America we've all heard the Gospel already. 
If one needs their eyes opened to receive, then here in America, the Gospel has already been delivered. One only needs to wait for their eyes to be opened.

Where as one in India or Africa might not have access to the Gospel. Maybe God opens their eyes and the gospel magically appears. 
Well not magically but divinely.


----------



## GunnSmokeer

Will Galen said:


> Most people listen to men, i.e., their preacher, priest, pastor, etc., instead of doing what the Good Book says to do.
> 
> Yet it's still a Christians duty to preach the Good News of the Kingdom whether people listen or not.




You might as well be a noisy gong or clanging cymbal, when you post huge essays or extended quotes of scripture.  We aren't going to read that. You're wasting your time AND hurting your credibility.


----------



## obligated

https://youtu.be/A87lDNflp5M

Nice cult there!


----------



## obligated

https://youtu.be/J8MEjsapCKE

Do as we say not as we do!Such pharisees or is it scribes?


----------



## kmh1031

*JW's CULT? They dont even come close to fitting the definition.*

Cults
 It is not surprising that some call JW’s cults..after all, Jesus Christ was accused of being a drunkard, a glutton, a Sabbath breaker, a false witness, a blasphemer of God, and a messenger of Satan. 
He was also accused of being subversive. You can read for yourself at Matthew 9:34; 11:19; 12:24; 26:65; John 8:13; 9:16; 19:12.

And after Jesus’ death and resurrection, his disciples were likewise the target of serious accusations. One group of first-century Christians were dragged to the city rulers by people crying out: ‘These men have overturned the inhabited earth!

So today, JW's expect it when many today follow teachings that are not of the bible, many see us as a cult.

But here are some checks and balances as to IF a religion fits the "Cult" term..

Isolated from Society, like cults..or absorbed in Humanity:

Cult members often isolate themselves from family, friends, and even society in general. 

Is that the case with Jehovah’s Witnesses? “I do not belong to Jehovah’s Witnesses,” wrote a newsman in the Czech Republic. Yet he added: “It is obvious that they Jehovah’s Witnesses have tremendous moral strength. 
They recognize governmental authorities but believe that only God’s Kingdom is capable of solving all human problems. But they are not fanatics. They are people who are absorbed in humanity.”

Strict Adherence to the Bible

the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses are different from other churches. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jehovah is the almighty God, Jesus is his Son, not part of a triune deity. 
Their faith is anchored in the belief that God’s Kingdom alone can bring relief to suffering humanity. They warn people of the imminent destruction of this corrupt system of things. 
They preach about God’s promise of an earthly paradise for obedient mankind. They do not venerate the cross. They do not celebrate Christmas. They believe that the soul is mortal and that there is no hellfire. 
They abstain from involvement in politics and participation in warfare.
Who Is our leader? Some man, some government? It is Jehovah God, and the head of the Christian Congregation..Jesus Christ.

No, It is precisely because of this close adherence to Bible teachings that the veneration and idolization of human leaders so characteristic of cults today is not to be found among Jehovah’s Witnesses.


----------



## hobbs27

kmh1031 said:


> Cults
> It is not surprising that some call JW’s cults..after all, Jesus Christ was accused of being a drunkard, a glutton, a Sabbath breaker, a false witness, a blasphemer of God, and a messenger of Satan.
> He was also accused of being subversive. You can read for yourself at Matthew 9:34; 11:19; 12:24; 26:65; John 8:13; 9:16; 19:12.
> 
> And after Jesus’ death and resurrection, his disciples were likewise the target of serious accusations. One group of first-century Christians were dragged to the city rulers by people crying out: ‘These men have overturned the inhabited earth!
> 
> So today, JW's expect it when many today follow teachings that are not of the bible, many see us as a cult.
> 
> But here are some checks and balances as to IF a religion fits the "Cult" term..
> 
> Isolated from Society, like cults..or absorbed in Humanity:
> 
> Cult members often isolate themselves from family, friends, and even society in general.
> 
> Is that the case with Jehovah’s Witnesses? “I do not belong to Jehovah’s Witnesses,” wrote a newsman in the Czech Republic. Yet he added: “It is obvious that they Jehovah’s Witnesses have tremendous moral strength.
> They recognize governmental authorities but believe that only God’s Kingdom is capable of solving all human problems. But they are not fanatics. They are people who are absorbed in humanity.”
> 
> Strict Adherence to the Bible
> 
> the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses are different from other churches. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jehovah is the almighty God, Jesus is his Son, not part of a triune deity.
> Their faith is anchored in the belief that God’s Kingdom alone can bring relief to suffering humanity. They warn people of the imminent destruction of this corrupt system of things.
> They preach about God’s promise of an earthly paradise for obedient mankind. They do not venerate the cross. They do not celebrate Christmas. They believe that the soul is mortal and that there is no hellfire.
> They abstain from involvement in politics and participation in warfare.
> Who Is our leader? Some man, some government? It is Jehovah God, and the head of the Christian Congregation..Jesus Christ.
> 
> No, It is precisely because of this close adherence to Bible teachings that the veneration and idolization of human leaders so characteristic of cults today is not to be found among Jehovah’s Witnesses.



Was this published by the watchtower?


----------



## hobbs27

Here it is.  http://pastorrussell.blogspot.com/2009/10/are-jehovahs-witnesses-cult.html?m=1

 If I were a leader of a cult, I would  certainly spend some time brainwashing my members into thinking they were the true people of Jehovah, and not a cult. :-(
 I don't see many mainstream Christian organizations doing this.
 I would also convince them that they all must believe exactly alike...you get a group of people to give up their free thought..you got em!


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Here it is.  http://pastorrussell.blogspot.com/2009/10/are-jehovahs-witnesses-cult.html?m=1
> 
> If I were a leader of a cult, I would  certainly spend some time brainwashing my members into thinking they were the true people of Jehovah, and not a cult. :-(
> I don't see many mainstream Christian organizations doing this.
> I would also convince them that they all must believe exactly alike...you get a group of people to give up their free thought..you got em!



If you were the leader of a Church accused of being a cult, you would certainly spend some time teaching the world that you weren't.
Many Oneness believers see them selves as the true people of Jehovah by being baptized in the name of Jesus only. Why aren't they considered a cult?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> If you were the leader of a Church accused of being a cult, you would certainly spend some time teaching the world that you weren't.
> Many Oneness believers see them selves as the true people of Jehovah by being baptized in the name of Jesus only. Why aren't they considered a cult?



Don't oneness believers extend out to different denominations? Are they united as a group that must believe exactly as all others, or are they allowed to have differing opinions? I don't see a similarity at all.
Btw, this article is not to the world, it's to the congregation...keeping them inline. To seek out anyone that may wonder if they are cult members, and ( correct) them.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Don't oneness believers extend out to different denominations? Are they united as a group that must believe exactly as all others, or are they allowed to have differing opinions? I don't see a similarity at all.



They are united in the fact that one must be baptized in the name of Jesus only. Most denominations have certain core beliefs associated with their faith such as baptism by immersion, the Trinity, works based, confession, witnessing, etc. that define their denomination. They expect all in the Church to believe as they do. I don't think there are too many denominations that like free thinkers.

What about the Latter Day Saints? Is there anything about them that could define them as a cult? What about the Quakers?


----------



## hobbs27

http://www.cultwatch.com/jw.html


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> http://www.cultwatch.com/jw.html



They do have some strange beliefs but why does that make them a cult?


----------



## hobbs27

The two most well-known examples of cults today are the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons. Both groups claim to be Christian, yet both deny the deity of Christ and salvation by faith alone.

http://www.gotquestions.org/cult-definition.html


----------



## Artfuldodger

Works based religions, OK, I'm beginning to understand the definition of a cult better. I was thinking more of the Shaking Quakers.


----------



## Artfuldodger

United Pentecostal Church (UPC).
A highly controlling, legalistic group that was formed in 1945. This group denies the Trinity and teaches that in order to be saved one must be baptized in the name of Jesus only.

http://christiananswers.net/q-aiia/aiia-top10cults.html


----------



## kmh1031

*Hobbs, yes it was...*

Yes it was an exert from a WT.

However, you might want to compare our beliefs to that of the early Christians, as to what they did, what they preached, and the key message of their ministry as well as Jesus.

Yes, we are not mainstream, and no we do not follow many of the current teachings that the Religions of today teach.

No we do not follow a man, as we do try to live our lives according to the bible, and the teachings of Jesus, even though we are imperfect.

We consider the ministry our greatest work, door to door, as Jesus and his disciples did. That was the main focus of Jesus and his life.  How many religions are "taking it to the people" as Jesus and his disciples did (Matt 28:19-20)

Although we have just over 8MM witnesses worldwide, we regularly have over 17MM attend our meetings, and we conduct over 100,000 bible studies weekly just in the US.

We dont have compounds, gates, or live in seclusion, but 
are out in public preaching world wide as that is our main work.  

Do we make mistakes in actions, deeds and teachings...yes.

We have changed our thinking and beliefs over the years as the "light has gotten brighter" whereas many religions have not as it relates to holidays, political involvement, biblical teachings and more.

As far as "faith and works" we believe as the scriptures teach:

James 2: 17-22 

â€¯So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.
18â€¯Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19â€¯You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20â€¯But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21â€¯Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22â€¯You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works,

I am not here to "debate" the issue...as we sincerely believe we have the truth....why else belong to a religion if one did not think so, ..correct?
if interested I will continue to post, as I enjoy all viewpoints..


----------



## Artfuldodger

I wonder if the early followers of Martin Luther, John Calvin, or 
William Miller were considered a cult?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Preterism

 From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

 Preterism is a variant of Christian eschatology which holds that some or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the Last Days or End Times refer to events which actually happened in the first century after Christ's birth. Because of its claims that Israel was supplanted by the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, Preterism has sometimes been identified as replacement theology. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning "past". Adherents of Preterism are known as Preterists.

Not exactly a "mainstream" Christian view. Cult, though? I don't think so.   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Calvinism? I don't think so but I have seen it on some of the cult lists.


----------



## hobbs27

Also preterism is not even a denomination. I know COC, Presbyterian, Baptist, Catholic, and even one Pentecostal preterist.


----------



## Artfuldodger

What about the Church of Christ? They aren't a denomination either. They follow the teaching of Thomas and Alexander Campbell. 
Just as most Protestants were influenced by Martin Luther the Church of Christ follow the teachings of Jesus.

I just wanted to show that many follow the teachings of man yet follow Jesus. 

I've seen the Church of Christ on the cult lists also. They teach Baptismal Regeneration. They believe not belonging to a denomination makes them the true children of God. 

Again, I don't personally think they are even close to a cult but then neither do I believe the JW's or LDS is either. The Shaking Quakers, maybe.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> What about the Church of Christ? They aren't a denomination either. They follow the teaching of Thomas and Alexander Campbell.
> Just as most Protestants were influenced by Martin Luther the Church of Christ follow the teachings of Jesus.
> 
> I just wanted to show that many follow the teachings of man yet follow Jesus.
> 
> I've seen the Church of Christ on the cult lists also. They teach Baptismal Regeneration. They believe not belonging to a denomination makes them the true children of God.
> 
> Again, I don't personally think they are even close to a cult but then neither do I believe the JW's or LDS is either. The Shaking Quakers, maybe.



Maybe you and I should agree on a definition of cult, then I can say for sure if someone  is or not. I don't believe JWs even qualify as Christians , they are closer to what we know of today as Jewish.

Show me a definition of cult you agree with.


----------



## kmh1031

*Who is a Christian Today?*

Who qualifies as “Christian” today?  

Saying a group is Christian, does not make it so…more importantly saying a group is NOT Christian as said in an earlier post does not make it so either. 

One must look at their works, teachings, life, and then compare to the bible. 

Interestingly, according to the Atlas of Global Christianity, in 2010 there were almost 2.3 billion worldwide. 

Yet the same publication indicated that those same Christians belong to over 41,000 denominations EACH with its own doctrines and rules of conduct, as they believe differently within their own denomination. How could so many..be so right when there was 1 true religion in Jesus day?

For example (not to pick on them)…note the Baptist denomination. Here is how they break out:


Southern Baptist Convention - 15,750,000
American Baptist Churches in the USA (formerly northern Baptists) - 1,500,000
National Baptist Convention of the USA, Inc. (mostly African-American) - 5,500,000
National Baptist Convention of American (offshoot of the other NBC) - 3,500,000
Free Will Baptists (anti-Calvinist) - 197,000
United Free Will Baptist Church (black version of above) - no figure cited
National Primitive Baptist Convention - 250,000
Primitive Baptist Churches (white version of above) - 72,000
General Baptists (Arminian) - 72,000
Seventh Day Baptists (date from 1672 in RI) - 5,200
Baptist General Conference (Swedish ancestry) - 134,000
North American Baptist Conference (German ancestry) - 44,000

One church across the street, same denomination teaches differently than the other..How can that be the correct religion? 

The term “Christian” first came into use sometime after 44 C.E. Luke reported: “It was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians as noted in Acts 11:26. 

Note that those called Christians were Christ’s disciples. 
What makes a person a disciple of Jesus Christ, or to be called Christian, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology says
 “Following Jesus as a disciple means the unconditional sacrifice of [one’s] whole life . . . for the whole of his life.” A true Christian, therefore, is one who follows the teachings and instructions of Jesus, the Founder of Christianity, totally and unconditionally.

Contrary to previous comments, we are Christians, as JW’s believe, and follow Jesus, and work hard to be footstep followers of Christ even though we are imperfect humans. 
The Jews do not even recognize Jesus.

Regarding our belief, we have 56,000 congregations world-wide. In Each Congregation, the same message and study is taught and is exactly the same weekly at a meeting during the week, and on Sunday regardless if you were in Africa, Croatia, India, or Des Moines Iowa. 

I could take my study materials for this week, fly to Australia, go to a Kingdom Hall, and be prepared…as the study is the same.

Also, I could walk into any of those meetings, and receive a hug, a welcome, and it would be my brother, regardless of race, nationality, ethnic background. 

Is that not what Jesus taught? Is that not being Christian?
“You will know my followers..if they have love among themselves?”
Yes, we are Christians…


----------



## hobbs27

KMH, do you worship Jesus?


----------



## kmh1031

*Hobbs did Jesus followers?*

Did the apostles? Disciples?


----------



## hobbs27

kmh1031 said:


> Did the apostles? Disciples?



Yes.


----------



## kmh1031

*Where did Jesus say our worship should be directed?*

Matt 4:10
you might want to check alternate translations for the original word for LORD here as Jesus was quoting to Satan the OT.


----------



## hobbs27

kmh1031 said:


> Matt 4:10
> you might want to check alternate translations for the original word for LORD here as Jesus was quoting to Satan the OT.




 Christians worship Christ, If you don't you are not Christian.
<sup class="versenum">
Matt 4:10 </sup>Then  saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou  shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.


Matt 14: 
<sup class="versenum">31 </sup>And  immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said  unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
 <sup class="versenum">32 </sup>And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
 <sup class="versenum">33 </sup>Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.


----------



## RH Clark

kmh1031
You are a JW, correct?  Thank you for participating in this thread. Might I respectfully ask you a few questions?  I would honestly like to know what you believe and why. I likely won't agree from what I have heard of JW but I will respect your right to disagree with me.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Christians worship Christ, If you don't you are not Christian.
> <sup class="versenum">
> Matt 4:10 </sup>Then  saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou  shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
> 
> 
> Matt 14:
> <sup class="versenum">31 </sup>And  immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said  unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
> <sup class="versenum">32 </sup>And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
> <sup class="versenum">33 </sup>Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.



Exodus 18:7
And Moses went out to meet his father in law, and did obeisance, and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare; and they came into the tent.

or

And he went out to meet his kinsman, and worshipped and kissed him: and they saluted one another with words of peace. And when he was come into the tent,


----------



## kmh1031

*RH, gladly, and Hobbs, that's not entirely scriptural*

RH.. I can handle respectful questions about my beliefs 

Again, Hobbs, review the definition of Christian, and perhaps do the research on previous scripture I cited..

As I stated I am not here to debate..religion..as to who is right, who is not..or get into a P...... Match

 Hobbs, I respect your view, and belief.. But wanted to clarify the cult issue you raised... Your definition of cult, is yours, and not not general definition of cult. Simply put, we do not fit it.

Do we believe Jesus is a god.. Yes.. Is he almighty God? Consult Ps 83:18 several translations...

Also in the KJV... Note Ps 110:1... Note LORD vs Lord..what does that mean and why is be Capitol letters, and one is not? 

Although my time here is limited so forgive me.. Babysitting grandson for weekend.., but will Try to answer as I can


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Exodus 18:7
> And Moses went out to meet his father in law, and did obeisance, and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare; and they came into the tent.
> 
> or
> 
> And he went out to meet his kinsman, and worshipped and kissed him: and they saluted one another with words of peace. And when he was come into the tent,



Art, is Jesus worthy of our worship ?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Art, is Jesus worthy of our worship ?



I only worship the God of Jesus. The same God he worshiped. Jesus did nothing of his own but by the power of the one true almighty God.
Jesus died for my sins and is the one Son of God sent here on a mission by his Father. 

If that makes me not a Christian then so be it. If it makes all of the Oneness not Christians then so be it. At least they believe Jesus "is" God so maybe they trump both of us in the worshiping the right entity department.


----------



## kmh1031

*Well said artfuldodger*

Very nice comment, and we too worship the God of Jesus...
Jehovah, which by the way is YHWH (English) was in original writings over 7,000 times..

Real question is why has this divine name Jehovah, been taken out of most translations..
and by whom, and for what purpose? 

Seems to me god, jehovah wanted it known if it was n the original writings 7000 times.

You think taking it out caused a change of meaning to the scriptures and perhaps a false shift of worship?
When did that happen and why? 

If interested n the answer.. They are there with research...

Noteworthy, and just before Jesus death.. He said n prayer to his father..

" I have made your name known" obviously talking to his father, and not Jesus himself as that would make no sense..


----------



## Artfuldodger

When Jesus mentioned God, who was he referring to?

John 5:43-44
43I have come in My Father’s name, and you have not received Me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44How can you believe if you accept glory from one another, yet do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.


----------



## welderguy

If you don't like the idea of worshipping Jesus,then you're not going to like heaven very much.


----------



## hobbs27

I have no shame in worshipping the Son, in which my salvation rests. Just as many worshipped Him as He was in the flesh.

The wise men worshiped Him from the moment He was born
On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. (Matthew 2:10-12)

The leper worshiped Him at his healing
And behold, a leper came to Him, and bowed down to Him, saying, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.” (Matthew 8:2)

The synagogue ruler worshiped Him
While He was saying these things to them, behold, there came a synagogue official, and bowed down before Him, saying, “My daughter has just died; but come and lay Your hand on her, and she will live.” (Matthew 9:18-19)

The disciples worshiped him in the boat
And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.” (Matthew 14:32-33)

The Canaanite woman worshiped Him
But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” (Matthew 15:25-26)

The mother of James and John worshipped Him
Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to Him with her sons, bowing down, and making a request of Him. (Matthew 20:20-21)

The blind man worshiped Him at his healing
Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” “Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.” Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.” Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. (John 9:35-38)

The women worshiped Him at the empty tomb
So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. (Matthew 28:8-10)

The disciples worshiped Him at the Ascension
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him (Matthew 28:16-17)


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> If you don't like the idea of worshipping Jesus,then you're not going to like heaven very much.



When you get to Heaven, will you see God and Jesus or just Jesus who became God when he came to the earth?

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

"I will also write on them my new name" 

If you get to Heaven and only see Jesus then you will become as he and truly understand the unity of God.


----------



## hobbs27

Not to mention John worshipped Him and was comforted by Him in Revelation. In this same letter John was scolded for attempting to worship mere angels...which Jesus is not a mere Angel.


----------



## Artfuldodger

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Ephesians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

We are Christ’s and Christ is the Father’s.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Whose words are these? Where was he at when he said it? 

Revelation 3:12
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

Will Jesus' "new" name be God or will God's new name be Jesus? Is this what Jesus is saying?

A 'New" name for a "new" identity.


----------



## hobbs27

Revelation 1: 
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,[h] “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. 19 Write_ the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this._


----------



## Artfuldodger

I can worship this POWER;

Ephesians 1:19
and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come. 22And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church,23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Philippians 2:9
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,

I wonder what his "new" name will be? I guess we'll have to wait until we see him as he is. At least we know he doesn't have that name yet.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Revelation 1:
> 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,[h] “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. 19 Write_ the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this._


_

 Jesus was the first to live spiritually who was dead is now alive evermore. His death is the Keys of the grave and death. Did God ever die? Whose power resurrected the Son of God?

Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Say's the Lord God.

Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place; and He (Jesus) sent and communicated {it} by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Where was Jesus when he received this Revelation from God?


Revelation 1:4 from Him (God) who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits who are before His (God’s) throne

Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Most definitely the same Father in both verses and AND "from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead..."

The conjunction “AND” is added for the purpose of separation and distinction.

The Revelation chain of command;
God-who gave the revelation to Jesus
Jesus-who sent his message via messenger
Angel-delievered the message to John
John-reveals this message to us._


----------



## kmh1031

*Good comments and scriptures, clearly pointing to Two beings...*

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 
AND Jesus... Not coma, Jesus, 


Few more scriptures  clearly showing Two beings, one God, Jehovah of the bible, and Jesus..
and then I have to do bedtime stories 

Matt 20:23 Jesus cannot do it as the decision is his fathers

Luke 10:21 thank you father because you have hidden these things...

Luke 22:29 I make a covenant with you, just like my father has made a covenant with me for the kingdom 

1 john 4:14 the father sent his son as savior of the world
Father forgive them as they know not what they are doing... 
John 2:16 stop making the house of my father the house of commerce

Just a few...
And heaven... What will you do? Who are the kings and priests? Who will they rule over? How many? Who is the little flick vs the great crowd? 

I plan on living forever on earth.,,

There are over 100 restoration prophesies in the bible about earth being restored, death and sickness done away, gods kingdom crushing the worldly kingdoms..
Ps 37 earth
Rev 21:3-4 death and mourning done away.. ( earth as no death n heaven)
Dan 2:44..   Gods kingdom crush worldly govt.

Focus and key topic of Jesus ministry was kingdom and its blessings..


----------



## NE GA Pappy

i thought the earth would be destroyed by fire, and there would be a new heaven and a new earth?

2 Peter 3:10


----------



## Artfuldodger

Revelation 1:2
His servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 

"the word of God and the Testimony of Jesus Christ"

Revelation 1:4-5
4John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from Him who is and was and is to come, and from the sevenfold Spirit before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood, 

"Him who is and who was and who is to come," AND "from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead..."

 The point I'm trying to make is if Jesus is God, why are they still separated even after the ascension? 

How can Jesus get a new name? Maybe Oneness explains it better, God became Jesus, God is now Jesus. Now there is only One. 
I do like their Unity.

When they(Oneness believers) see Jesus as he is? Maybe they will see the Unity.


----------



## kmh1031

*No, not at all...earth remains forever*

If you have bad tenants... Burn house, or remove tenants? 

Ecc: 1:4
4 A generation is going, and a generation is coming,
But the earth remains* forever.+


----------



## NE GA Pappy

kmh1031 said:


> If you have bad tenants... Burn house, or remove tenants?
> 
> Ecc: 1:4
> 4 A generation is going, and a generation is coming,
> But the earth remains* forever.+



so Peter was lying?


----------



## NE GA Pappy

NE GA Pappy said:


> so Peter was lying?



and Jesus was lying?  Matt 24:35   Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my word will not pass away.


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> i thought the earth would be destroyed by fire, and there would be a new heaven and a new earth?
> 
> 2 Peter 3:10



Maybe it already has. See Hobbs you might be closer to the JW's than you think.


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> and Jesus was lying?  Matt 24:35   Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my word will not pass away.



 If you believe the Old Covenant has passed away, then you must believe "heaven and earth" has passed away!

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18).


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe it already has. See Hobbs you might be closer to the JW's than you think.



Then how could Peter and Jesus both say that it would be destroyed, instead of saying it had been destroyed.   

That makes no sense, does it?


----------



## RH Clark

Artfuldodger said:


> If you believe the Old Covenant has passed away, then you must believe "heaven and earth" has passed away!
> 
> "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18).



The Old covenant has passed away but not because Heaven and earth has passed away but because the old covenant has been fulfilled. The scripture says that none of the law shall pass away "till all be fulfilled." Jesus fulfilled all the OT law, being the only man never to sin, to never break the covenant and so the covenant is fulfilled. The only way for any of us to fulfill the covenant is in Jesus.


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> Then how could Peter and Jesus both say that it would be destroyed, instead of saying it had been destroyed.
> 
> That makes no sense, does it?



What if it was destroyed in 70AD?


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Artfuldodger said:


> If you believe the Old Covenant has passed away, then you must believe "heaven and earth" has passed away!
> 
> "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18).



I don't think the old covenant has passed away, just completed.  One covenant is not exclusive of the other. When one covenant was fulfilled, another covenant was instituted.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Artfuldodger said:


> What if it was destroyed in 70AD?



Gee... I still see stuff laying around that was here before 70AD, and they said everything would be destroyed, so I don't think that could have happened..

But what do I know? I am just a poor country boy that believes what he reads in the Bible


----------



## Artfuldodger

RH Clark said:


> The Old covenant has passed away but not because Heaven and earth has passed away but because the old covenant has been fulfilled. The scripture says that none of the law shall pass away "till all be fulfilled." Jesus fulfilled all the OT law, being the only man never to sin, to never break the covenant and so the covenant is fulfilled. The only way for any of us to fulfill the covenant is in Jesus.



OK, I can sorta see that translation but why was Heaven and Earth even mentioned?


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> I don't think the old covenant has passed away, just completed.  One covenant is not exclusive of the other. When one covenant was fulfilled, another covenant was instituted.



Then why was Heaven and Earth mentioned?


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> Gee... I still see stuff laying around that was here before 70AD, and they said everything would be destroyed, so I don't think that could have happened..
> 
> But what do I know? I am just a poor country boy that believes what he reads in the Bible



2 Peter 3:12-14
12as you anticipate and hasten the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be dissolved by fire and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with God’s promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. 14Therefore, beloved, as you anticipate these things, make every effort to be found at peace with Him, without spot or blemish.

Luke 21:20
19By your patient endurance, you will gain your souls. 20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city.

Any relation between the two? Are both accounts the destruction of the earth?


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Artfuldodger said:


> Then why was Heaven and Earth mentioned?



heaven and earth was mentioned, but not the covenant. 

Jesus said his words would not pass away.  I take that to mean that his word were truth that would stand forever, not meaningless chatter like we all do.


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> heaven and earth was mentioned, but not the covenant.
> 
> Jesus said his words would not pass away.  I take that to mean that his word were truth that would stand forever, not meaningless chatter like we all do.



It's more than the Word, it's the Law that is mentioned;

Matthew 5:18-19
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Not even the smallest letter of the Law will disappear until Heaven and Earth disappear until every thing is fulfilled.
If Christ fulfilled the Law, then Heaven and Earth have disappeared. We have to go to the Old Testament to see what "heaven and earth" means in prophetic language.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe it already has. See Hobbs you might be closer to the JW's than you think.





No sir, I'm a Christian, I worship Christ.

They have a few things right that the Church has wrong, such as their understanding of he11, but they miss the most important thing...the most essential thing. Our Savior !

They also believe in a future heaven and earth just as the dispensationalist,  they just have a hyper- literal understanding of the nature of the Kingdom. They have confused the already present spiritual Kingdom with an imaginary future literal Kingdom here on earth.
 The literally believe the remnant that came out of Israel in 70 ad ( the 144000) are the only ones making it to heaven. That they will live on the earth forever with animals that no longer require eating.


----------



## kmh1031

*Good morning!*

Much discussion last night..
However Hobbs you are a little confused on our belief of 144,000 and also what the bible says regarding the animals...however on that topic, note in revelation two groups.. The little flock, and great crowd. What is difference, who are they and where will each group be?


But to the topic of Peter mentioning earth being consumed with fire... Yet other scriptures show the earth stands forever..??. 
Then that would point to another thought process on earth would it not? Otherwise the atheists would have field day with contradiction....

Also, heaven and earth pass away, but my words will not... Have you ever said "I will do that when H-ell freezes over" (if one)?
so the pint was.. His words would have meaning, be fulfilled, and stand forever.

God has founded the earth upon its established places; it will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever.”—PSALM 104:5.
The earth will not be destroyed, either by fire or by any other means. Instead, the Bible teaches that this planet is mankind’s eternal home. Psalm 37:29 says: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”—Psalm 115:16; Isaiah 45:18.

 Regarding 2 Peter 3:7. That Bible verse says: “The heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire.” Does this not show that the earth will be burned up?

Actually, the Bible sometimes uses the terms “heavens,” “earth,” and “fire” figuratively, as symbols. For example, when Genesis 11:1 says: “All the earth continued to be of one language,” it uses “earth” to mean human society.

The context of 2 Peter 3:7 shows that the heavens, earth, and fire mentioned there are also symbols. Verses 5 and 6 draw a parallel with the Flood of Noah’s day. On that occasion, an ancient world was destroyed, yet our planet did not disappear. 

Instead, the Flood wiped out a violent society, or “earth.” It also destroyed a kind of “heavens”—the people who ruled over that earthly society. (Genesis 6:11)

 In the same way, 2 Peter 3:7 foretells  the permanent destruction of wicked society and its corrupt governments as if by fire.


----------



## hobbs27

Kmh, I don't think I'm confused on your belief of the 144,000. In the JWs interpretation they were the elect ...correct? I also call them the remnant,  the first century Christians, and the bride. 

As for the animals, you do believe you will live here in a physical paradise right? That all animals will live with one another in peace, never killing one another?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> No sir, I'm a Christian, I worship Christ.
> 
> They have a few things right that the Church has wrong, such as their understanding of he11, but they miss the most important thing...the most essential thing. Our Savior !
> 
> They also believe in a future heaven and earth just as the dispensationalist,  they just have a hyper- literal understanding of the nature of the Kingdom. They have confused the already present spiritual Kingdom with an imaginary future literal Kingdom here on earth.
> The literally believe the remnant that came out of Israel in 70 ad ( the 144000) are the only ones making it to heaven. That they will live on the earth forever with animals that no longer require eating.



OK so they believe Jesus isn't the literal Son of God. Is that a requirement for salvation? You believe Jesus is 1/3 of the always eternal Godhead. Is that a requirement for salvation? Oneness believe God himself literally became Jesus and is still Jesus. Is that a requirement for salvation? You are getting into a works based salvation when you make it more than "salvation from grace." One only has to believe Jesus is a man who died for our sins.

The unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is not as clear as you make it out to be. We are only required to believe Jesus died for our sins. It's that simple. Salvation is from God alone. It's called grace because we are too stupid to understand it all.

In the future when we see Jesus as he is, we will also see his Father. When Jesus gets his new name we will understand the Unity of it all.

Mark 14:61
60So the high priest stood up before them and questioned Jesus, “Have You no answer? What is it these men are testifying against You?” 61But Jesus remained silent and made no reply. Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

Again I ask, when we get to Heaven will we see both God and Jesus or just God in his new form, Jesus?
Are they still two separate but equal entities that Trinitarians say they have always been or is God now Jesus as Oneness believers say he is?


----------



## hobbs27

kmh1031 said:


> In the same way, 2 Peter 3:7 foretells  the permanent destruction of wicked society and its corrupt governments as if by fire.



Yes, The temple and law. It happened already.

Galatians 4:3 <sup class="versenum"> </sup>Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Romans 7:6 
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not _in_ the oldness of the letter.

2Peter 3<sup class="versenum">:12 </sup>Looking  for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens  being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with  fervent heat?

 The elements was the law in which times past had held Gods people in bondage but upon His coming in 70 ad the Temple , the city, the law burned with fervent heat.


----------



## kmh1031

*Hobbs, sorry may have misinterpreted your comments*

Sorry, was reading fast, getting kids ready for the knife show in Atlanta today!!

Just a couple comments and out the door...if you/ anyone wants more info on our beliefs...JW.org is a resource...

However here is a quick link on 144,000.
Realize it may not agree with everyone...but here is quick link

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2004647?q=144,000&p=par

However since there are well over 100 restoration prophesies in the bible about earth being restored, meek inheriting it, death done away with (rev 21:3-4) 
And many of you pray for it daily in the Lord's Prayer...
Your "kingdom come, your will be done.."

This is what we believe, since that was gods original purpose for the earth...

Regarding the animals...
If you believe the Noah account...where god tamed them according to his purpose to get in the ark,
 and if you believe he shut  there mouths while Daniel in the lions den...then it is not hard to believe this restoration prophesy below... 

Note Isa 11:6-8

6 The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb,+
And with the young goat the leopard will lie down,
And the calf and the lion*
 and the fattened animal will all be together;*

And a little boy will lead them.
 7 
The cow and the bear will feed together,
And their young will lie down together.
The lion will eat straw like the bull.+
 8 
The nursing child will play over the lair of a cobra,
And a weaned child will put his hand over the den of a poisonous snake.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> OK so they believe Jesus isn't the literal Son of God. Is that a requirement for salvation? l.



They will tell you Jesus is a literal son of God. They will tell you Jesus is the arch angel Michael. They are wrong and I can prove that.

As for Salvation the only way to the Father is through the Son.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> They will tell you Jesus is a literal son of God. They will tell you Jesus is the arch angel Michael. They are wrong and I can prove that.
> 
> As for Salvation the only way to the Father is through the Son.



What exactly does this mean? The only way to the Father is through the Son.


----------



## Artfuldodger

One of the signs of a cult is that they alone have the ticket to salvation. I've heard this mentioned of the Church of Christ.
Well now it appears many of us believe we alone(our group/denomonation) have this ticket. One must believe Jesus is 1/3 of the Godhead. Another group believes Jesus was only with God in Word alone and actually became God when he came incarnate as his Father. Unlike the Trinity group who says Jesus has always existed and that 1/3 of the "always existing" Jesus came as a man.
Then there is others who say he was an angel and yet others who say he was the adopted son of God.
Some say we must have free will to acquire salvation yet others say we can't have free will and except the Holy Spirit. That we are to evil to accept it. Before long the list is back to a works based salvation. For our own benefit, we'd better keep the salvation requirement list very simple and very short.

To say we must believe Jesus is more than the Messiah who died for our sins places us in the same boat as the cults.

Where is God's grace in that way of thinking?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> What exactly does this mean? The only way to the Father is through the Son.




Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

None of us will ever have access to the Father without first calling upon the Son. Jews today call on the Father, He hears them not..Muslims call on Allah, He hears them not, JW's call upon Jehovah, He hears them not. Our prayers must go to the Son, He is our only access to the Father.


----------



## RH Clark

Artfuldodger said:


> OK, I can sorta see that translation but why was Heaven and Earth even mentioned?



Just to emphasize the strength of the covenant, saying that both Heaven and Earth would have to pass away before the covenant, "until it be fulfilled by Jesus."


----------



## RH Clark

Artfuldodger said:


> One of the signs of a cult is that they alone have the ticket to salvation. I've heard this mentioned of the Church of Christ.
> Well now it appears many of us believe we alone(our group/denomonation) have this ticket. One must believe Jesus is 1/3 of the Godhead. Another group believes Jesus was only with God in Word alone and actually became God when he came incarnate as his Father. Unlike the Trinity group who says Jesus has always existed and that 1/3 of the "always existing" Jesus came as a man.
> Then there is others who say he was an angel and yet others who say he was the adopted son of God.
> Some say we must have free will to acquire salvation yet others say we can't have free will and except the Holy Spirit. That we are to evil to accept it. Before long the list is back to a works based salvation. For our own benefit, we'd better keep the salvation requirement list very simple and very short.
> 
> To say we must believe Jesus is more than the Messiah who died for our sins places us in the same boat as the cults.
> 
> Where is God's grace in that way of thinking?



I believe that what is necessary for salvation is total trust and confidence in God for your salvation. I also believe that because of that total trust and confidence, a regeneration occurs in the individual, they are born again with the nature of God.

I believe this takes place because Jesus made the way for it to happen but I'm not sure that a person even has to know the name of Jesus to have that trust in God and be born again. By having complete faith in God they are in essence having complete faith in Jesus whether they recognize his name or not. The OT saints were saved by this faith in God and they were justified by the sacrifice of Jesus even though it hadn't occurred yet for them. I think that's part of God being eternal.

Now having said that I don't know exactly what to think of anyone who has heard of Jesus, knows the gospel, but has rejected it for a different gospel. My first question is why? Why make Jesus out to be less than he is? What is the driving force and thought behind that? Is it ignorance? Is it simply the seeking of truth? Is it worse than those, being a way to place confidence in self rather than in God for salvation? I honestly don't know enough about it to make the call, and so I must rely on God to be the judge and just continue to share what I believe to be the truth.


----------



## hobbs27

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, The temple and law. It happened already.
> 
> Galatians 4:3 <sup class="versenum"> </sup>Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
> 
> Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
> 
> Romans 7:6
> But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not _in_ the oldness of the letter.
> 
> 2Peter 3<sup class="versenum">:12 </sup>Looking  for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens  being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with  fervent heat?
> 
> The elements was the law in which times past had held Gods people in bondage but upon His coming in 70 ad the Temple , the city, the law burned with fervent heat.



Just a little more evidence from outside the Book.

Eusebius Bishop of Caesarea  265-340 'Theophania'

’…I need now only say, all these things have been done : the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem--all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realised on earth ; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations ; God's holy arm has been made bare in their sight: His judgments have prevailed, and they remain for an everlasting testimony to the whole world. His kingdom has come, as it was foretold it should, and His will has, so far, been done; His purposes have been finished; and, from that day to the extreme end of time, it will be the duty, as indeed it will be the great privilege of the Church, to gather into its bosom the Jew, the Greek, the Scythian, the Barbarian, bond and free; and to do this as the Apostles did in their days--in obedience, faith and hope…’


----------



## gemcgrew

RH Clark said:


> I believe that what is necessary for salvation is total trust and confidence in God for your salvation. I also believe that because of that total trust and confidence, a regeneration occurs in the individual, they are born again with the nature of God.
> 
> I believe this takes place because Jesus made the way for it to happen but I'm not sure that a person even has to know the name of Jesus to have that trust in God and be born again. By having complete faith in God they are in essence having complete faith in Jesus whether they recognize his name or not. The OT saints were saved by this faith in God and they were justified by the sacrifice of Jesus even though it hadn't occurred yet for them. I think that's part of God being eternal.
> 
> Now having said that I don't know exactly what to think of anyone who has heard of Jesus, knows the gospel, but has rejected it for a different gospel. My first question is why? Why make Jesus out to be less than he is? What is the driving force and thought behind that? Is it ignorance? Is it simply the seeking of truth? Is it worse than those, being a way to place confidence in self rather than in God for salvation? I honestly don't know enough about it to make the call, and so I must rely on God to be the judge and just continue to share what I believe to be the truth.


Wouldn't that apply to your first paragraph?


----------



## RH Clark

gemcgrew said:


> Wouldn't that apply to your first paragraph?



Yes, which is why I said it. I don't know to what extent the JW places confidence in his lifestyle or good works.

I know that you think I place confidence in a man's actions, but that is not the case at all. I see a vast difference in my believing that the free gift of salvation must be accepted than in someone believing that they  are saved because they follow as much of the law and Christian values as they can. I will not however argue that difference again in this thread.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> It's more than the Word, it's the Law that is mentioned;
> 
> Matthew 5:18-19
> For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
> 
> Not even the smallest letter of the Law will disappear until Heaven and Earth disappear until every thing is fulfilled.
> If Christ fulfilled the Law, then Heaven and Earth have disappeared. We have to go to the Old Testament to see what "heaven and earth" means in prophetic language.




Art. Notice " till all is fulfilled".   Some will say all Old Covenant prophecy is fulfilled, but there's prophecy in the Epistles, particularly Revelation that is not fulfilled.
 My challenge to anyone believing that is Show me a single prophecy in Revelation that is not also in the Prophets of the old Covenant ....Folks it is all fulfilled, it was always Israels eschatology, not the Church's.


----------



## welderguy

RH Clark said:


> I believe that what is necessary for salvation is total trust and confidence in God for your salvation. I also believe that because of that total trust and confidence, a regeneration occurs in the individual, they are born again with the nature of God.
> 
> I believe this takes place because Jesus made the way for it to happen but I'm not sure that a person even has to know the name of Jesus to have that trust in God and be born again. By having complete faith in God they are in essence having complete faith in Jesus whether they recognize his name or not. The OT saints were saved by this faith in God and they were justified by the sacrifice of Jesus even though it hadn't occurred yet for them. I think that's part of God being eternal.
> 
> Now having said thatI don't know exactly what to think of anyone who has heard of Jesus, knows the gospel, but has rejected it for a different gospel. My first question is why? Why make Jesus out to be less than he is? What is the driving force and thought behind that? Is it ignorance? Is it simply the seeking of truth? Is it worse than those, being a way to place confidence in self rather than in God for salvation? I honestly don't know enough about it to make the call, and so I must rely on God to be the judge and just continue to share what I believe to be the truth.



I believe your answer is found in this text,if you care to take a look:

Hebrews 4:2
"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

And we know of course faith is a gift of God,not something man can manufacture on his own.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Art. Notice " till all is fulfilled".   Some will say all Old Covenant prophecy is fulfilled, but there's prophecy in the Epistles, particularly Revelation that is not fulfilled.
> My challenge to anyone believing that is Show me a single prophecy in Revelation that is not also in the Prophets of the old Covenant ....Folks it is all fulfilled, it was always Israels eschatology, not the Church's.



This has not been fulfilled:

Philippians 2:10-11

10" That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."



If you don't believe it,just spend a little while downstairs in the AAA section.


----------



## RH Clark

welderguy said:


> I believe your answer is found in this text,if you care to take a look:
> 
> Hebrews 4:2
> "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."
> 
> And we know of course faith is a gift of God,not something man can manufacture on his own.



Never said it was manufactured on his own, but neither is it forced against his will.


----------



## welderguy

RH Clark said:


> Never said it was manufactured on his own, but neither is it forced against his will.



It's not forced because his will is changed when he is quickened.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> This has not been fulfilled:
> 
> Philippians 2:10-11
> 
> 10" That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
> 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't believe it,just spend a little while downstairs in the AAA section.




 I think it is fulfilled in that worshipping of the Son Jesus glorifies the Father. Notice everyone should bow...every tongue should confess... because the Son is worthy!  I say He is worthy now and this too is fulfilled...what say you?


----------



## RH Clark

welderguy said:


> It's not forced because his will is changed when he is quickened.



The way you interpret it, the man has no choice at all, yet to hold your doctrine, you ignore many scriptures to the contrary.

Matthew 7:7King James Version (KJV)
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:


Luke 11:13King James Version (KJV)
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


Jeremiah 29:13King James Version (KJV)
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.


Deuteronomy 30:19King James Version (KJV)
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I think it is fulfilled in that worshipping of the Son Jesus glorifies the Father. Notice everyone should bow...every tongue should confess... because the Son is worthy!  I say He is worthy now and this too is fulfilled...what say you?



Well,since you don't like the way Paul words it in Phillipians,maybe you will like it better in Romans 14:11

	 " For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."


----------



## Artfuldodger

RH Clark said:


> Just to emphasize the strength of the covenant, saying that both Heaven and Earth would have to pass away before the covenant, "until it be fulfilled by Jesus."



Then Heaven and Earth have to be passed because it is fulfilled by Jesus.


----------



## Artfuldodger

RH Clark said:


> I believe that what is necessary for salvation is total trust and confidence in God for your salvation. I also believe that because of that total trust and confidence, a regeneration occurs in the individual, they are born again with the nature of God.
> 
> I believe this takes place because Jesus made the way for it to happen but I'm not sure that a person even has to know the name of Jesus to have that trust in God and be born again. By having complete faith in God they are in essence having complete faith in Jesus whether they recognize his name or not. The OT saints were saved by this faith in God and they were justified by the sacrifice of Jesus even though it hadn't occurred yet for them. I think that's part of God being eternal.
> 
> Now having said that I don't know exactly what to think of anyone who has heard of Jesus, knows the gospel, but has rejected it for a different gospel. My first question is why? Why make Jesus out to be less than he is? What is the driving force and thought behind that? Is it ignorance? Is it simply the seeking of truth? Is it worse than those, being a way to place confidence in self rather than in God for salvation? I honestly don't know enough about it to make the call, and so I must rely on God to be the judge and just continue to share what I believe to be the truth.



Perhaps it is ignorance or indoctrination for all of us. You do know that in your first sentence you placed your salvation in "self." 

Is salvation dependent on everyone knowing as much as we do about the Trinity? I hope not.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
> 
> None of us will ever have access to the Father without first calling upon the Son. Jews today call on the Father, He hears them not..Muslims call on Allah, He hears them not, JW's call upon Jehovah, He hears them not. Our prayers must go to the Son, He is our only access to the Father.



Wait a minute now, I thought we were to pray directly to God. Jesus is the way to the Father because he died for our sins. He is our mediator but not in the way of prayer.
God hears Christians because they believe Jesus died for their sins.


----------



## RH Clark

Artfuldodger said:


> Perhaps it is ignorance or indoctrination for all of us. You do know that in your first sentence you placed your salvation in "self."
> 
> Is salvation dependent on everyone knowing as much as we do about the Trinity? I hope not.



So if I say you are to trust in God , that means I'm trusting in myself? I guess I need to go get my bible and mark out all the places it tells me to trust in God.


----------



## RH Clark

Artfuldodger said:


> Then Heaven and Earth have to be passed because it is fulfilled by Jesus.



NO! Try real hard here to understand. It is saying that it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than it would be for the covenant to pass away before the covenant is fulfilled.

It's like saying" I'll die before I'll let that happen before Tuesday. When Tuesday comes, and I then let the thing happen, it doesn't mean that I die. I don't die because Tuesday, the set time, came.

The covenant was fulfilled before it passed away, so there is no requirement of heaven and earth passing away.

I have no idea why you make things so hard to understand.


----------



## gemcgrew

RH Clark said:


> So if I say you are to trust in God , that means I'm trusting in myself?


Yes, in the way that you worded the first paragraph.



RH Clark said:


> I believe that what is necessary for salvation is total trust and confidence in God for your salvation. I also believe that because of that total trust and confidence, a regeneration occurs in the individual, they are born again with the nature of God.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Well,since you don't like the way Paul words it in Phillipians,maybe you will like it better in Romans 14:11
> 
> " For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."



 Did I say I didn't like the words in Phillipians? I love them equally with the words in Romans...but if you want to present these verses as prophecies you will have to go back to Is.45:23

 See this is a proclamation that Christ is God and that the prophecy of Is. 45 is fulfilled. This is actually a great example to the JW's and Art.


----------



## hobbs27

RH Clark said:


> NO! Try real hard here to understand. It is saying that it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than it would be for the covenant to pass away before the covenant is fulfilled.
> 
> It's like saying" I'll die before I'll let that happen before Tuesday. When Tuesday comes, and I then let the thing happen, it doesn't mean that I die. I don't die because Tuesday, the set time, came.
> 
> The covenant was fulfilled before it passed away, so there is no requirement of heaven and earth passing away.
> 
> I have no idea why you make things so hard to understand.




 Maybe you should re examine this yourself...perhaps.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Wait a minute now, I thought we were to pray directly to God. Jesus is the way to the Father because he died for our sins. He is our mediator but not in the way of prayer.
> God hears Christians because they believe Jesus died for their sins.



What makes you think that?


----------



## RH Clark

gemcgrew said:


> Yes, in the way that you worded the first paragraph.



It seems insane to me that anyone can get trusting in themselves from my saying to trust totally in God.

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. I suppose Abraham was trusting in himself as well.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

welderguy said:


> Well,since you don't like the way Paul words it in Phillipians,maybe you will like it better in Romans 14:11
> 
> " For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."



Yep, preterist have issue with that verse and also explaining prophecies about the Mt of Olives splitting open , and a river flowing from it.  Also that river bringing life to the Dead Sea.  Lots of prophecies and lots of issues.


----------



## welderguy

RH Clark said:


> The way you interpret it, the man has no choice at all, yet to hold your doctrine, you ignore many scriptures to the contrary.
> 
> Matthew 7:7King James Version (KJV)
> 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
> 
> 
> Luke 11:13King James Version (KJV)
> 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?



These two passages are admonishing people, who have had their will changed by regeneration, to pray using the faith that has been given them.
Someone who has not been regenerated will not pray in faith.


----------



## hobbs27

RH...For you.


----------



## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> Yep, preterist have issue with that verse and also explaining prophecies about the Mt of Olives splitting open , and a river flowing from it.  Also that river bringing life to the Dead Sea.  Lots of prophecies and lots of issues.



 Not really.


----------



## welderguy

RH Clark said:


> The way you interpret it, the man has no choice at all, yet to hold your doctrine, you ignore many scriptures to the contrary.
> 
> 
> Jeremiah 29:13King James Version (KJV)
> 13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
> 
> 
> Deuteronomy 30:19King James Version (KJV)
> 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:



These two passages are written to God's people,Israel,in the Old testament.They are a type of God's chosen people that are defined in the New Testament.


----------



## welderguy

RH Clark said:


> It seems insane to me that anyone can get trusting in themselves from my saying to trust totally in God.
> 
> Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. I suppose Abraham was trusting in himself as well.



The thing that you are missing is that you are trusting in your own ability to trust.

We are trying to get you to understand that unless God makes you able,you cannot trust,because it takes faith to trust.And like you previously agreed,man cannot manufacture this faith.

It was that way with Abraham as well.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Did I say I didn't like the words in Phillipians? I love them equally with the words in Romans...but if you want to present these verses as prophecies you will have to go back to Is.45:23
> 
> See this is a proclamation that Christ is God and that the prophecy of Is. 45 is fulfilled. This is actually a great example to the JW's and Art.



I can't for the life of me find at anytime in history when every knee bowed to Jesus and every tongue confessed that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Please,point me to when this took place.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I can't for the life of me find at anytime in history when every knee bowed to Jesus and every tongue confessed that Jesus Christ is Lord.
> 
> Please,point me to when this took place.



*10*And  thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or again, thou,  why dost thou  set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand  at the tribunal of  the Christ;
*11*for it hath been written, ‘I live! saith the Lord — to Me  bow shall every knee, and every tongue shall confess to God;’
*12*so, then, each of us concerning himself shall give  reckoning to God;

I think you are missing the point. Every person will not bow...but if any man is to bow to God he is to bow to Jesus. This is a New Covenant command and proclamation of Christ being Lord..ie God. Read the context surrounding this.

 And if you think this is not fulfilled unto whom do you bow?


----------



## NE GA Pappy

hobbs27 said:


> *10*And  thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or again, thou,  why dost thou  set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand  at the tribunal of  the Christ;
> *11*for it hath been written, ‘I live! saith the Lord — to Me  bow shall every knee, and every tongue shall confess to God;’
> *12*so, then, each of us concerning himself shall give  reckoning to God;
> 
> I think you are missing the point. Every person will not bow...but if any man is to bow to God he is to bow to Jesus. This is a New Covenant command and proclamation of Christ being Lord..ie God. Read the context surrounding this.
> 
> And if you think this is not fulfilled unto whom do you bow?




You post scripture saying every knee shall bow, and then try to explain how not every person will bow?????

that makes no sense what so ever.  Have you lost your mind?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> *10*And  thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or again, thou,  why dost thou  set at nought thy brother?for we shall all stand at the tribunal of the Christ;
> *11*for it hath been written, ‘I live! saith the Lord — to Me  bow shall every knee, and every tongue shall confess to God;’
> *12*so, then, each of us concerning himself shall give  reckoning to God;
> 
> I think you are missing the point. Every person will not bow...but if any man is to bow to God he is to bow to Jesus. This is a New Covenant command and proclamation of Christ being Lord..ie God. Read the context surrounding this.
> 
> And if you think this is not fulfilled unto whom do you bow?



When did we ALL stand at the tribunal of the Christ?


----------



## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> You post scripture saying every knee shall bow, and then try to explain how not every person will bow?????
> 
> that makes no sense what so ever.  Have you lost your mind?



 Yes, and apparently Matthew Henry did too as he wrote the commentary covering this scripture.

*Commentary on Romans 14:7-13*

 (Read Romans 14:7-13)
 Though some are weak, and others are strong, yet all must agree not  to live to themselves. No one who has given up his name to Christ, is  allowedly a self-seeker; that is against true Christianity. The business  of our lives is not to please ourselves, but to please God. That is  true Christianity, which makes Christ all in all. Though Christians are  of different strength, capacities, and practices in lesser things, yet  they are all the Lord's; all are looking and serving, and approving  themselves to Christ. He is Lord of those that are living, to rule them;  of those that are dead, to revive them, and raise them up. Christians  should not judge or despise one another, because both the one and the  other must shortly give an account. A believing regard to the judgment  of the great day, would silence rash judgings. Let every man search his  own heart and life; he that is strict in judging and humbling himself,  will not be apt to judge and despise his brother. We must take heed of  saying or doing things which may cause others to stumble or to fall. The  one signifies a lesser, the other a greater degree of offense; that  which may be an occasion of grief or of guilt to our brother.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, and apparently Matthew Henry did too as he wrote the commentary covering this scripture.
> 
> *Commentary on Romans 14:7-13*
> 
> (Read Romans 14:7-13)
> Though some are weak, and others are strong, yet all must agree not  to live to themselves. No one who has given up his name to Christ, is  allowedly a self-seeker; that is against true Christianity. The business  of our lives is not to please ourselves, but to please God. That is  true Christianity, which makes Christ all in all. Though Christians are  of different strength, capacities, and practices in lesser things, yet  they are all the Lord's; all are looking and serving, and approving  themselves to Christ. He is Lord of those that are living, to rule them;  of those that are dead, to revive them, and raise them up. Christians  should not judge or despise one another, because both the one and the  other must shortly give an account. A believing regard to the judgment  of the great day, would silence rash judgings. Let every man search his  own heart and life; he that is strict in judging and humbling himself,  will not be apt to judge and despise his brother. We must take heed of  saying or doing things which may cause others to stumble or to fall. The  one signifies a lesser, the other a greater degree of offense; that  which may be an occasion of grief or of guilt to our brother.




So where does Matthew Henry say that every knee will not bow?  Where does he say that only the ones that wish to make Jesus their Lord will bow?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, and apparently Matthew Henry did too as he wrote the commentary covering this scripture.
> 
> *Commentary on Romans 14:7-13*
> 
> (Read Romans 14:7-13)
> Though some are weak, and others are strong, yet all must agree not  to live to themselves. No one who has given up his name to Christ, is  allowedly a self-seeker; that is against true Christianity. The business  of our lives is not to please ourselves, but to please God. That is  true Christianity, which makes Christ all in all. Though Christians are  of different strength, capacities, and practices in lesser things, yet  they are all the Lord's; all are looking and serving, and approving  themselves to Christ. He is Lord of those that are living, to rule them;  of those that are dead, to revive them, and raise them up. Christians  should not judge or despise one another, because both the one and the  other must shortly give an account. A believing regard to the judgement of the great day, would silence rash judgings. Let every man search his  own heart and life; he that is strict in judging and humbling himself,  will not be apt to judge and despise his brother. We must take heed of  saying or doing things which may cause others to stumble or to fall. The  one signifies a lesser, the other a greater degree of offense; that  which may be an occasion of grief or of guilt to our brother.



Apparently Mathew Henry also believes there's a judgement to take place at a future time.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

hobbs27 said:


> Not really.



then as Ricky Ricardo would say... "Splain it to me Lucy"


----------



## RH Clark

welderguy said:


> The thing that you are missing is that you are trusting in your own ability to trust.
> 
> We are trying to get you to understand that unless God makes you able,you cannot trust,because it takes faith to trust.And like you previously agreed,man cannot manufacture this faith.
> 
> It was that way with Abraham as well.



Yep, same old tired argument. There is a gift of faith but the scriptures also says faith comes from hearing the word.

I'm tired of arguing with you though. I won't participate in this thread anymore. It doesn't matter what I try to contribute, you and gemcgrew always turn it into an argument with your predetermination doctrine. Since everything is already set and there's no changing it then it is useless even talking about it. It's useless trying to encourage anyone in the things of God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

If there is a future judgement how does one die and go to be with the Lord? Must we sleep in the ground for this future event? What's the purpose of a future judgement?
Why don't we get judged when we die a physical death and let us go on to Heaven?


----------



## Artfuldodger

" saith the Lord — to Me bow shall every knee, and every tongue shall confess to God"

I still see God the Father and his Son Jesus. I see a family. A Father and children. If we are children then we are joint heirs with Jesus to his Father's Kingdom.

Matthew 16:27-28
27For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done. 28Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

I still see the family.

Does anyone care to explain the urgency of Christ's return? 

Revelation 22:12
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

James 5:7-9
7Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer anticipates the precious fruit of the soil as he patiently awaits the fall and spring rains. 8You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

Why do these people need to be warned of a judgement that's gonna happen thousands of years away?

Why do they need to be patient if the Lord wasn't coming soon? If they were going to be dead physically before Christ comes, then they'd already be judged and in Heaven anyway.


----------



## Artfuldodger

If we got to wait for Christ to return to get our rewards, the one's he's bringing with him, then perhaps the JW's are right. 
We'll pop out of the ground, go to court, and then live here in the New Earth & Heavens. With our rewards that Jesus brings with him.


"I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
 Please tell me what that means?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> What makes you think that?



It's just the way I was taught to pray. We always started with "Our Father" and ended with "in Jesus name, Amen."

Like you said "we have no way to the Father except through the Son." But the power is the Father's. The actions of the Son on the cross is our redemption. He is the "way."
Without the actions of Jesus we would have no mediator.


----------



## welderguy

RH Clark said:


> Yep, same old tired argument. There is a gift of faith but the scriptures also says faith comes from hearing the word.
> 
> I'm tired of arguing with you though. I won't participate in this thread anymore. It doesn't matter what I try to contribute, you and gemcgrew always turn it into an argument with your predetermination doctrine. Since everything is already set and there's no changing it then it is useless even talking about it. It's useless trying to encourage anyone in the things of God.



If you could get the big chip off your shoulder for a minute maybe we could help one another.

When you say "the scriptures say faith comes by hearing the word",I totally agree.But I don't believe you are understanding that fully.
Look at this.

1 John 2:27
" But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

This anointing is the "Word" that you hear when you are given faith(born again).Its not an outward hearing of the physical ears.Its a spiritual hearing.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> If you could get the big chip off your shoulder for a minute maybe we could help one another.
> 
> When you say "the scriptures say faith comes by hearing the word",I totally agree.But I don't believe you are understanding that fully.
> Look at this.
> 
> 1 John 2:27
> " But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
> 
> This anointing is the "Word" that you hear when you are given faith(born again).Its not an outward hearing of the physical ears.Its a spiritual hearing.



This anointing might be the thing RH is talking about as to how Gentiles in far away lands gain salvation. This anointing is how they are taught of Jesus as they have no man to teach them. 
They know Jesus by knowing God through his anointing.

Maybe?


----------



## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> then as Ricky Ricardo would say... "Splain it to me Lucy"


http://revelationrevolution.org/zechariah-14-fulfilled-a-preterist-commentary/


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Apparently Mathew Henry also believes there's a judgement to take place at a future time.



Sure. I don't limit myself to learn just from preterist and I realize these men that wrote commentary back in those days were just "men" and were subject to error. I have always felt a spiritual connection with the writings of Matthew Henry though, just as I have felt a spiritual connection with other futurist, correct eschatology is not required for salvation, it just explains the salvation a little more.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> It's just the way I was taught to pray. We always started with "Our Father" and ended with "in Jesus name, Amen."
> 
> Like you said "we have no way to the Father except through the Son." But the power is the Father's. The actions of the Son on the cross is our redemption. He is the "way."
> Without the actions of Jesus we would have no mediator.




What does it mean to you that the Father gave the Son all power?


----------



## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> So where does Matthew Henry say that every knee will not bow?  Where does he say that only the ones that wish to make Jesus their Lord will bow?



 His entire commentary is rightly on Jesus is our Lord. That's the context of these verses. The question then is...Do you believe Jesus is Lord now...or He will be at a later date? I say now and that fulfills this prophecy of Isaiah.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> What does it mean to you that the Father gave the Son all power?



The things Jesus did came from the power of his Father. Jesus did nothing by his own but that of his Father.
It was his Father's authority and power and Jesus was granted this power.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Sure. I don't limit myself to learn just from preterist and I realize these men that wrote commentary back in those days were just "men" and were subject to error. I have always felt a spiritual connection with the writings of Matthew Henry though, just as I have felt a spiritual connection with other futurist, correct eschatology is not required for salvation, it just explains the salvation a little more.



Then if the Trinity turns out to be Oneness, and God is now Jesus. You'll still gain salvation because you believed Jesus died for your sins?
If Jesus was only with God at creation in Word only? If God the Father actually incarnate as a man? If God is now only in the form of Jesus in Heaven? If we only see God through Jesus because the Father is now the Son? 

Trinitarians will still have salvation, right? If they believe Jesus died for their sins.


----------



## hobbs27

I don't spend alot of time studying this topic of the Trinity. I have and I had a hard time understanding it, but I have an even harder time understanding oneness or Unitarians....so while I don't think the Trinitarian doctrine is perfect, it's the best and most biblical I know of.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I don't spend alot of time studying this topic of the Trinity. I have and I had a hard time understanding it, but I have an even harder time understanding oneness or Unitarians....so while I don't think the Trinitarian doctrine is perfect, it's the best and most biblical I know of.



But if you missed it and it turns out to be Oneness, will God overlook your ignorance and/or indoctrination?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> But if you missed it and it turns out to be Oneness, will God overlook your ignorance and/or indoctrination?



Already has.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Already has.



Amen!


----------



## obligated

False prophets and a real estate scam.Then there is the pedophile issue.
I dont want them on my porch or near my kids or grandkids.


----------



## Artfuldodger

That chart could be used for any denomination;

God chose the "Elect" through predestination. How do we know? The bible tells us so. Don't other denominations  have the free will to gain salvation? No only the Elect. 
Why not? The others are to depraved to choose God. How do we know? The bible tells us so.

Why has God chose only the Protestants? Because they believe in salvation by grace. Cant the others gain salvation? No because they must work their way to Heaven which is impossible. How do we know? The bible tells us this. So free grace believers are the true children of God? Yes but only if you've been baptized by a complete dunking. Why? The bible tells us these are the true children of God.

How do we as Oneness believers know that we are the true children of God? Because the bible tells us we are the only ones baptized in the correct way, in the name of Jesus only. But we don't believe in the Trinity. That's because God becomes Jesus. He can't be all three at the same time. Why not? The bible tells us so. To believe that is the work of Satan. One must believe as we do. 

Why are we the true believers? Because we don't use musical instruments in our worship and aren't a denomination. The bible tells us this.
We don't believe in OSAS. One must have free will to seek God.
We are the only group(not denomination) to do this properly. A lot of it has to do with how we view the Holy Spirit.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> That chart could be used for any denomination;
> 
> God chose the "Elect" through predestination. How do we know? The bible tells us so. Don't other denominations  have the free will to gain salvation? No only the Elect.
> Why not? The others are to depraved to choose God. How do we know? The bible tells us so.
> 
> Why has God chose only the Protestants? Because they believe in salvation by grace. Cant the others gain salvation? No because they must work their way to Heaven which is impossible. How do we know? The bible tells us this. So free grace believers are the true children of God? Yes but only if you've been baptized by a complete dunking. Why? The bible tells us these are the true children of God.
> 
> How do we as Oneness believers know that we are the true children of God? Because the bible tells us we are the only ones baptized in the correct way, in the name of Jesus only. But we don't believe in the Trinity. That's because God becomes Jesus. He can't be all three at the same time. Why not? The bible tells us so. To believe that is the work of Satan. One must believe as we do.
> 
> Why are we the true believers? Because we don't use musical instruments in our worship and aren't a denomination. The bible tells us this.
> We don't believe in OSAS. One must have free will to seek God.
> We are the only group(not denomination) to do this properly. A lot of it has to do with how we view the Holy Spirit.



Art,
I have been reading your posts for almost 2 years and I don't have a clue what you believe about anything.

Do you?


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Art,
> I have been reading your posts for almost 2 years and I don't have a clue what you believe about anything.
> 
> Do you?



Not really, I think I'm losing it.


----------



## obligated

Artfuldodger said:


> Not really, I think I'm losing it.



You can become a Watchtower salesman and change your views every couple years.They call it truth even when its wrong a few years later.Demonic cult leading the gullible,I believe the scriptures call them blind guides and a few other not so favorable things.
I wouldnt be surprised if the publishers visiting different forums were counting their time(they keep track for god)preaching their views for the corporation.
Dont take my opions as fact.Research their documented past in court records and past publications they printed themselves.
The light is getting brighter and they dont like it!


----------



## Artfuldodger

obligated said:


> You can become a Watchtower salesman and change your views every couple years.They call it truth even when its wrong a few years later.Demonic cult leading the gullible,I believe the scriptures call them blind guides and a few other not so favorable things.
> I wouldnt be surprised if the publishers visiting different forums were counting their time(they keep track for god)preaching their views for the corporation.
> Dont take my opions as fact.Research their documented past in court records and past publications they printed themselves.
> The light is getting brighter and they dont like it!



I don't see their way as any more right or wrong than the Baptists, Mormons, Church of Christ, Free will believers, Predestination believers, Protestants, Catholics, Trinity Believers, Oneness believers, Futurists, or Preterists.

It all gets "circular" at times. I can see the unity in all of it. I'm sticking with Unity. When we see Jesus as he is, we'll understand the Unity he shares with his Father. We will become like him and heirs with him to his Father's Kingdom.


----------



## 1776Flintlock

Galatians 6:7

Or, "you can not fix stupid"


----------



## 1776Flintlock

Huntinfool said:


> I say you're not man enough to post what you want to post....
> 
> 
> 
> (Just kidding.  Don't do it man.  Who else will back me and my condemning ideas up if you're not here!)


Were you thinking if the Clinton's?


----------



## Big7

huntmore said:


> When I tell them I am Catholic they leave real quick.



Me too..


----------



## Artfuldodger

Why do they leave when you tell them you are Catholic?


----------



## kmh1031

*JWs keaving*

It is doubtful we would leave just because someone told us they were Carholic, or Methodist, or Muslim or any other religion.

I know in my personal ministry, that had never been a deterrent.


----------



## NCHillbilly

kmh1031 said:


> It is doubtful we would leave just because someone told us they were Carholic, or Methodist, or Muslim or any other religion.
> 
> I know in my personal ministry, that had never been a deterrent.



That's the truth if I ever heard it. Your couple of blue-haired female associates sure left in a hurry though, that one time I got really tired of getting woken up once a week by JWs after working all night and finally came to the door in my birthday suit. They threw a handful of little pamphlets down on the porch and left a black mark with their Dodge Caravan.

Note: If I want to learn more about your religion, I'll come to you and ask you. Stay off my porch.


----------



## kmckinnie

Goodness Gracious.


----------



## kmh1031

*JWs and your oorch*

Nice discussion


----------



## NCHillbilly

Hey, I don't come on on your oorch at 8 AM on a Saturday and try to convince you to become a heathen nature worshiper.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

NCHillbilly said:


> Hey, I don't come on on your oorch at 8 AM on a Saturday and try to convince you to become a heathen nature worshiper.



Wait til you get off work about 2am one morning, and then go see how willing they are to talk to you about religion.


----------



## hobbs27

Do JWs predict the year of the end of the world anymore, or have they quit doing that?


----------



## NE GA Pappy

I always thought it was 3 strikes and you are out.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Were there any other angels to incarnate as a human besides Michael?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Do all humans have a pre-existence such as the LDS teach? They believe Michael became Adam. The first one that is, not the 2nd one.


----------



## j_seph

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't see their way as any more right or wrong than the Baptists, Mormons, Church of Christ, Free will believers, Predestination believers, Protestants, Catholics, Trinity Believers, Oneness believers, Futurists, or Preterists.
> 
> It all gets "circular" at times. I can see the unity in all of it. I'm sticking with Unity. When we see Jesus as he is, we'll understand the Unity he shares with his Father. We will become like him and heirs with him to his Father's Kingdom.


By his grace, through salvation I am already an heir to my Father's Kingdom.


----------



## kmh1031

*End of the world*

Hobbs 
We have never predicted or stated a date for the end of the world.
We follow bible chronology closely, just as the early Christians did...but no dates. No time for that.

As the scriptures say... No one knows the day or the hour... Only the father in heaven..


----------



## hobbs27

kmh1031 said:


> Hobbs
> We have never predicted or stated a date for the end of the world.
> We follow bible chronology closely, just as the early Christians did...but no dates. No time for that.
> 
> As the scriptures say... No one knows the day or the hour... Only the father in heaven..



So.. I know more about JW history than you? Your organization has many known failed dates.


----------



## hobbs27




----------



## kmh1031

*Dates*

Hobbs,
Sorry for the delay, catching planes...

But related to our beliefs, you may know many things about JW's and our beliefs....however from your posts, you are a little off base with much of what you post...related to us. 

Just like the video you posted...very unfortunate about this man and his sister, and other negative items he brought up...education, and more...as i assume he is an ex JW...thats fine...to each their own...and I am glad he is happy...

Could I find..videos on Ex Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, and more? Absolutely...would that be representative of the entire religion...most likely not. would it be 100% correct....you decide..

Back to the video and related to the grind? Serving God is not easy in this world, and I am sure that anyone regardless of their religious views, would say the same...based on the struggles we all face.

We try to live our lives according to the bible, and work to follow it closely....our beliefs are not for everyone..
Have we changed our views, beliefs over the years...absolutely...

Tell me, did the apostles, or early Christians change their views on many things as they continued to study and understand the bible more fully..

Yes they did..what about circumcision, and admitting gentiles to the faith and more...many fell away because of these changes...but it was an update...

Changing...or updating ones belief as you continue  to study the bible...is it wrong?  

Contrast our beliefs that change...with more biblical knowledge...vs that today with many religions who know their teachings are false, and or contrary to the bible...yet still teach them...much related to homosexuality, immorality, and more...

In fact...one very main stream religion, it was stated on in the news recently...now does not believe the book of Genesis...and the creation account and therefore is not teaching at all from Genesis...? 

Hobbs.. I have seen you change your views, or question the belief of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored here...and perhaps other views..which is right..? 

Several of the discussions here, are positive, and encouraging, and many beliefs are discussed, many different than the other..and I enjoy them...

As in my original post...i am not here to get in a P.....match with you or anyone else...as it is clear how you feel about the JWs...and I respect that.

Related to your video..I can send you many that counter that one..but I am not...it would serve no useful purpose other than to simply counter your video..

We are very imperfect people, trying to belief in God and Jesus as we see the bible...and preach the good news about the Kingdom..as Jesus commanded his followers....with the hope that the bible holds out...
is it for everyone...no. 

however we are active in our ministry as Jesus commanded his followers.

In fact over 50K per week or more ask us for a bible study.., With just over 8MM witnesses worldwide, and over 20MM attending our meetings...that shows that our message and beliefs appeal to some...not all.


In parting, before my next flight...

IF I wanted to learn about you, and your religion...I certainly would not ask an ex member, or someone that was opposed to you...and take it as what you believed...would that be fair? Unless of course I had a distaste for you already and wanted to believe the negative...

Therefore, I suggest you do the same if sincerely interested in learning our beliefs...if not..I wish you well my friend..


----------



## hobbs27

kmh, I submit to the word of God so if the word of God overwhelms what I already know to be true. I must reconsider with prayer as I did with the doctrine of ECT. I admit it though. 

 You denied the past date setting which is confirmed in the video and a known fact by anyone that has studied religions. 

My heart breaks for the man in the video, and he's not the only one I have seen in video, read from ,or spoken with face to face, that lost many years in that organization. One of the most humble men I know is an ex JW, and he works hard to reach out to those in the organization now. God Bless & Safe Travels.


----------



## kmh1031

*Dates*

Hobbs,
First of all thanks for your heartfelt comments... I, like you am imperfect, and sincere in what I believe as I am sure you are...

 Humble, meek, sincere people are many...those who worship, and those that do not believe in God...

I appreciate your comments, and my heart aches for the man in the video as well... Unfortunate circumstances... 

His comment on education, is a little off base and most likely his choice..

Granted we focus on our ministry as that is our Vocation, and work our avocation....we do not frown on education, HS degree and even technical college in some field...
Both my sons went to college, and doing well work, and religiously.

Now to the dates, If you are referring to dates like 1975 that many claim as the smoking gun...... No where was that printed as the end of time, armegedden, etc... 

Many read into the article, and assumed on their own that that date was the end of time..they wanted it to be..and acted accordingly....

 I was 21 at the time, and followed my parents, who were just remembering the scripture I quoted in my first post.

"no one knows the day or the hour...not even the son...only he father...and kept my mind and beliefs on the things written... Nothing more..others did not..

But that discussion must wait, as I am now headed to hotel..in my destination city..... Until next time..
Take care


----------



## NE GA Pappy

kmh1031 said:


> Hobbs
> We have never predicted or stated a date for the end of the world.
> We follow bible chronology closely, just as the early Christians did...but no dates. No time for that.
> 
> As the scriptures say... No one knows the day or the hour... Only the father in heaven..



BBaahhahhahahahahahahah!  I mean. BWWAAhahahahahaha.

JW's have set dates for years... really?   hhahahahahahah


----------



## Artfuldodger

No one knew the day. (past  tense)

Who needs hope of a future return anyway? We'll be there when we die a physical death. I'm not sure where "there" is but eternal life is way better than everlasting death no matter where it's at.


----------



## Artfuldodger

"Not even the son."
                                                                                                                   That one was a mystery. Not even the 1/3rd of the always being and equal part of the Godhead that had already ascended back to rejoin the other 2/3rds.

Not even if Oneness is true and God himself incarnate as Jesus and is now in the form of Jesus and no longer in the form of his Father.


Maybe after he ascended he got the memo.


----------



## hobbs27

No one knew the Day or the Hour, but the Father...yet the Son knew it was going to be in that generation in which He was speaking to. He knew the signs that would come, He knew it would be before they ( the disciples) would finish going through the cities of Israel.


----------



## Will Galen

How do you explain the Holy Ghost not knowing?


----------



## hobbs27

Will Galen said:


> How do you explain the Holy Ghost not knowing?



Matt. 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no _man_, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Matt. 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no _man_, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.



That verse supports that only the 1/3 of the Trinity known as the "Father" knows. 
If Jesus didn't know then neither did the Holy Spirit.

 "but my Father only"


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> That verse supports that only the 1/3 of the Trinity known as the "Father" knows.
> If Jesus didn't know then neither did the Holy Spirit.
> 
> "but my Father only"


Yep, only the Father knew the day and the hour. Jesus knew it was within that generation, He knew it would be before the disciples would finish going through all the cities of Israel, and He knew it would be before Caiphus and John died.


----------



## gemcgrew

God is of one mind. 
God is a trinity.
Each member of the Godhead have the same attributes.
God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit... knows.


----------



## obligated

http://www.silentlambs.org/caelderbusted.htm

There is a pattern.


----------



## obligated

http://www.silentlambs.org/AllenWolf.htm

Another one


----------



## obligated

http://www.silentlambs.org/AwardVacated.htm

Wonderful corporation.


----------



## obligated

http://www.silentlambs.org/UKLoseappeal.htm

Not just in the USA.Worldwide pedophile work!


----------



## obligated

http://www.silentlambs.org/MontgomerySentenced.htm

Im starting to see a pattern


----------



## obligated

http://www.silentlambs.org/HelenShawBusted.htm

Seems familiar.


----------



## obligated

http://www.silentlambs.org/USAElderbusted.htm

Yeah there a pattern here.Raping children and protecting the companies assets.If the flag image bothers you feel free to leave!


----------



## obligated

http://www.silentlambs.org/jworgbusted.htm

Dont take my word for it.Do a little research.If you have kids and morals you will be pretty upset by the time your done.


----------



## kmh1031

*Are they the only ones? No*

Unfortunately today, it is a worldwide problem...regardless of religion, ethnic group, charity, or business: 

http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-32909444
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/29/protestants-abuse-catholics-methodist-church
http://www.latimes.com/la-me-boy-scouts-perversion-files-full-coverage-storygallery.html

So if you are going to tell the story, tell it across all groups and religions

When a group, or religion seek to help people it attracts certain predators that prey on those that have a good heart and are accepting.....
Many religions are working hard to deal with this problem, as well as companies, charities...

It is not isolated to one religious group as your limited knowledge base indicates.

It is very easy to single out a person, or group and sling mud..


----------



## NE GA Pappy

kmh1031 said:


> Unfortunately today, it is a worldwide problem...regardless of religion, ethnic group, charity, or business:
> 
> http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-32909444
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/29/protestants-abuse-catholics-methodist-church
> http://www.latimes.com/la-me-boy-scouts-perversion-files-full-coverage-storygallery.html
> 
> So if you are going to tell the story, tell it across all groups and religions
> 
> When a group, or religion seek to help people it attracts certain predators that prey on those that have a good heart and are accepting.....
> Many religions are working hard to deal with this problem, as well as companies, charities...
> 
> It is not isolated to one religious group as your limited knowledge base indicates.
> 
> It is very easy to single out a person, or group and sling mud..




So, your defense is that everyone else does it?


----------



## kmh1031

*No not at all..*

Their is no defense...it has taken everyone, from all walks of life.

It clearly is against gods laws and all who are guilty of this should be dealt with... Swiftly..

the point I was making is that, even though it happens to many religions, charities, business, neighborhoods...unfortunately,some times..the actions of a few overshadow the entire groups positive efforts..and should not diminish the message, or ministry of the whole group..
If that is what you got out of it, then you perhaps read it with the wrong intent...

Do you or others have answers to the issues like that which does not discriminate against race, religion, group??


----------



## welderguy

kmh1031 said:


> Do you or others have answers to the issues like that which does not discriminate against race, religion, group??



I am against splitting up children and adults into different groups.

Keep your own children under your own supervision during all services.


----------



## obligated

kmh1031 said:


> Unfortunately today, it is a worldwide problem...regardless of religion, ethnic group, charity, or business:
> 
> http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-32909444
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/29/protestants-abuse-catholics-methodist-church
> http://www.latimes.com/la-me-boy-scouts-perversion-files-full-coverage-storygallery.html
> 
> So if you are going to tell the story, tell it across all groups and religions
> 
> When a group, or religion seek to help people it attracts certain predators that prey on those that have a good heart and are accepting.....
> Many religions are working hard to deal with this problem, as well as companies, charities...
> 
> It is not isolated to one religious group as your limited knowledge base indicates.
> 
> It is very easy to single out a person, or group and sling mud..



The Watchtower will spout about them being so pure and pointing at other faiths while they were as dirty as the others.They will threaten expulsion if you dont drop the issue with a pedophile molesting in the congregation.For an corporation that claims to be gods earthly organization their "truth"really leaves a lot to be desired for anyone with a IQ above a potato or that has morals higher than Charlie Sheen.
Dont take my word for it.Google Watchtower scams,pedophiles,lies,false prophesies,etc and you will be busy.Not everything on the internet is true but court documents are pretty good evidence.
Pedophiles should have no protection or place in a religion or in civilized society.When you protect the pedophile to save assets you lined yourself up with the father of the lie.I guess its a corporation for a reason.


----------



## formula1

*re:*

There's not a religion, denomination or sect these days that doesn't have some form of sexual deviant or sexual immorality.  It has been going on since the beginning of time.  So I'm not surprised to hear JW, Baptist, Catholic, Muslim or any other religion don't share these issues.  Some of the nicest people you know sitting next to you in church are addicted to porn.  It doesn't shock me!

What shocks me is that men and women are still trying the pull the splinter out another's eye while ignoring the board in their own.   I have determined that my 'board' is a full time job in and of itself and I need much help from God to defeat it!  It takes a lifetime it seems for me to realize in the flesh what God has already accomplished in my spirit man!  Remember, with the measure you use it will be measured to you!

Get to know God and get to know His only Son Jesus and let Him take you over.  Then all the other stuff will take care of itself!

May the grace and mercy of Almighty God overwhelm every part of your life!


----------



## Mako22

obligated said:


> The Watchtower will spout about them being so pure and pointing at other faiths while they were as dirty as the others.They will threaten expulsion if you dont drop the issue with a pedophile molesting in the congregation.For an corporation that claims to be gods earthly organization their "truth"really leaves a lot to be desired for anyone with a IQ above a potato or that has morals higher than Charlie Sheen.
> Dont take my word for it.Google Watchtower scams,pedophiles,lies,false prophesies,etc and you will be busy.Not everything on the internet is true but court documents are pretty good evidence.
> Pedophiles should have no protection or place in a religion or in civilized society.When you protect the pedophile to save assets you lined yourself up with the father of the lie.I guess its a corporation for a reason.



Thank you for the information. The JW cult is dangerous and evil to the core!


----------



## kmh1031

*Evil cult? Doubtful*

I respect your comments regarding JWs as you are entitled to your belief, however incorrect they may be.

But evil, and cult just don't fit.

Perhaps you should look up cult in Dictionary.

We don't follow a man, but Jesus. We don't have compounds, nor isolate ourselves from society. We pay our taxes, work, and are heavily involved in our neighhborhods preaching..,as Jesus and his disciples were, quite in-cult like
In fact we are fulfilling the command of Jesus at Matt 24:19-20. 
Don't understand our beliefs..or why we believe as we do...then go to JW.org for a quick lesson.

Our preaching work, like Jesus is our main work!
In fact we spent worldwide over 1.9 billion hours preaching last year...all JWs combined. We placed over 4.9 billion pieces of literature last year all by voluntary donations, no paid clergy...our time is donated to the work contrary to the comments on " business or money making religion"
Each month we conduct over 9 million bible studies with people of all walks of life...

Our message is not for everyone..and for those who dislike us..our do not share our views..we are cult, evil, and demons..

Truth is...we are simple imperfect people just trying to follow strictly Christs teachings related to his kingdom, and the good news.. Matt 24:14.. 
That which so many pray for but rarely teach.

With 8 million Wittness worldwide..and over 20 million that attend our public meetings, not private or in secret, or in a compound...although our message may not appeal to you personally, but neither did Jesus message when he preached.

How do others today stack up to following Jesus command at Matt 28:19-20, or Matt 24:14?


Personally I was a Babtist, and my wife Methodist. We started studying just over 20 years ago..and are now JWs due to the strict adherence to the bible, Jesus teachings, and no involvement in politics, pagan celebrations, and more...
Are we immune to the worlds problems? No..neither is any other religion, today, he Mason's, or other imperfect group..

Evil? Cults? Is that not what the religious leaders of Jesus day said about he and his disciples, and as a result he and many of them were killed...

Not interested...that is fine, we respect that...but at least, understand and get story straight..


----------



## obligated

I hope you arent counting your time by posting on religous forums.
Watchtower is far from being not involved in politics.They say one thing and do another.The FACT they were a UN NGO and  got caught is a little proof.
Then there are the RBC scams of charging for repairs on Kingdom Halls with interest.Thought you were not to charge your brothers interest.
The way they handle pedophiles is disgusting in Gods eye and  our perverted "justice"system.Pedophiles are everywhere but scripture says to clean the bad out not protect them.Court documents PROVE the Watchtower corporation repeatedly covered up the pedophiles wrong doing at the expense of the child!God earthly organization?I dont think so.
Then there is the failed dates,false prophesies,Translating a bible with no knowlege of the language,Organ transplants,etc,etc.
Watchtower has printed that without their publications no one could fully understand the bible.Really?Jesus praised his father because he made the book so the common man could grasp the wisdom.I guess them New York elitest cant grasp Gods word or follow it.Jehovah hates a deceiver or a haughty heart.
Are we seeing a pattern here?Dont take my reply as proof.Look up for yourself and ask yourself after seeing the proof,Would a loving God of Justice back such a foul corporation?


----------



## j_seph

Why do JW not celebrate birthdays?


----------



## obligated

j_seph said:


> Why do JW not celebrate birthdays?



Their reasoning is bad things happened in instances mentioned in the bible of birthdays being celebrated and pagan origins.
Thanksgiving isnt celebrated either because its not Watchtower sanctioned.Mothers day,Fathers day too.
I understand the Pagan origin reasoning for Christmas,Halloween or Easter.Christs birthday is not known but most know it wasnt in winter.
My issue with Watchtower corporation is a long history of failed "prophesies",Rules that had no biblical basis(organ transplant was considered cannibalism in their publications)Counting "time"spent in the ministry(god knows)Criminal activity,Real estate scams,fleecing the flock,The ever changing "truth",and last but not least that arrogant pious New York attitude.Ooops I forgot the pedophile/child rape thing!
Like I posted before dont take my word for it.Do a little research and look at legal record or news clips.If you can get some of their old volumes or books that will set things straight on their past views they now deny existed.Some of it borders on


----------



## j_seph

obligated said:


> Their reasoning is bad things happened in instances mentioned in the bible of birthdays being celebrated and pagan origins.
> Thanksgiving isnt celebrated either because its not Watchtower sanctioned.Mothers day,Fathers day too.
> I understand the Pagan origin reasoning for Christmas,Halloween or Easter.Christs birthday is not known but most know it wasnt in winter.
> My issue with Watchtower corporation is a long history of failed "prophesies",Rules that had no biblical basis(organ transplant was considered cannibalism in their publications)Counting "time"spent in the ministry(god knows)Criminal activity,Real estate scams,fleecing the flock,The ever changing "truth",and last but not least that arrogant pious New York attitude.Ooops I forgot the pedophile/child rape thing!
> Like I posted before dont take my word for it.Do a little research and look at legal record or news clips.If you can get some of their old volumes or books that will set things straight on their past views they now deny existed.Some of it borders on


Some pagans also had wild revelry and orgies at weddings and funerals. Reckon they might ought to stop celebrating weddings as well and not have funerals.
Thank God my salvation has been bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus and I have a personal savior.


----------



## obligated

j_seph said:


> Some pagans also had wild revelry and orgies at weddings and funerals. Reckon they might ought to stop celebrating weddings as well and not have funerals.
> Thank God my salvation has been bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus and I have a personal savior.



They change the "truth"every couple years so you could wait till it changes.LOL.I have friends still in prominent positions planning their exit.They shun you for speaking against their rules.Family will be shunned too for talking to you.
Im the type that will fight if I see wrong.It has cost me but I know I did the right thing and exposed the scumbag rapist and resisted the urge to put him in a wheelchair.Bad subject for me.Who knows what a deputy would pull up running tags at a Kingdom Hall : )


----------



## kmh1031

*Birthdays, holidays,*

For anyone interested in learning for themselves instead of Mr. Garbage mouth, simply do your own research on holidays and their origin... Birthdays, Easter, Halloween and more.

And funerals? Weddings? Get serious... Sure they did... But nothing unscriptural about weddings, or Funerals... Jesus attended a wedding... Pagan celebration... No.
However the exact origin of many of today's holidays are rooted in pagan worship..

If sincerely interested You will find what the origin to these holidays are
For instance... Ever wonder what a rabbit has to do with the death of Jesus? Mixing of Christianity and Pagan worship...fertility...
Do not the scriptures say... Worship me in spirit and Truth? 
Then if interested in that... We are obligated to search it out in all aspects of our life including holidays... That pertain to our worship

Or you can listen here to the self proclaimed JW expert, and read his rants and raves... 

By the way Mr Obligated.... The Mason's aren't that clean either... "Cast the first Stone" he who is without sin?? As another poster so aptly put... No church or organization is immune or protected today from the many problems that plaque us all...and your group as well is no exception.

Not going there on a post... But as Obligated said... Follow Google and research it... And all will see.

Keep your posts up if you like..Mr Obligated... I have made my points clear for any to see that is sincerely interested... I will be glad to answer questions about our faith.... But not getting into a P.......match with one who just wants to argue...
Have a good evening...


----------



## obligated

I was raised a JW.I have been around a long time and seen with my own eyes.Thats why I left.
I became a Mason looking for like minded people without the religous aspect.Im sure they have their problems but they dont claim to be Gods(Jehovahs)mouthpiece or his only earthly organization.I didnt expect perfection from the Watchtower.What I did expect was a moral compass when it came to my friends 13 year old son being raped by an elder that also served at Bethel.Instead he was told to be quiet and Jehovah would handle it.The elder moved from Hollywood Florida to Palm Beach and did it again.Then he moved to Ocala and again molested children.I was and around fifty other kids were victims of this animal.The elders in Ocala and the society still fought to keep the victims quiet to protect their reputation despite them admitting he had at least 50 victims under his belt!
When my nephew was molested at 5 years old by a 6"4"240 pound guy in the Kingdom Hall and they tried to cover it up for his elder daddy I went to the police.Sadly he wasnt the first victim.One of my friends commited suicide because he couldnt deal with the molestation from the elder and how he was treated by the Watchtower corporation after coming forward.Another dirtbag in North Dade was molesting girls as young as 6 years old.Again the victims families were told to be quiet so they didnt"reproach Jehovahs name"The wife went to authorities and left the JWs.Her husband had around 8 victims he has been convicted on.Other victims have come forward in recent years.An elder that walked sadly in my wedding is serving 30 years for child pornography and attempting to have a child do a lewd act.The "brothers"still deny he was a bad person despite him attempting the filming and over 50 child porn videos he tried to trade to Palm Beach deputies.
Google Charles Taze Russel and some of his Quotes in Court and look what he is buried under.Look at the Watchtower and the symbols.
I know a lot about how things are run and have lots of old volumes.Elders guide book isnt out of reach either.Ive been around in the organization for over 40 years.My problem is I actually read the bible several times and saw a vast difference from their "traditions of men"from what gods word said.Most of our friends were special pioneers and some circuit overseers.Some of my relatives are elders.
I would dare say I know the subject.


----------



## obligated

If any people here could please pray for the victims to be healed or forget the past.Im 55 now and still have nightmares from these idiots.


----------



## j_seph

kmh1031 said:


> For instance... Ever wonder what a rabbit has to do with the death of Jesus?


I presume you are speaking of Easter here. If art, legends, and myths from the past teach us anything, it is that human beings long to live, to love and be loved, to reproduce, and to live beyond death. The resurrection of Jesus—the central element of Easter—reflects those longings and affirms a dramatic claim: one day death will be swallowed up in victory.

By the way.........Easter is about Jesus Resurrection not his death.

Matthew 7:15


----------



## centerpin fan

obligated said:


> I was raised a JW.... I became a Mason ...



We need to merge this train wreck of a thread with the Mason train wreck thread.


----------



## obligated

https://youtu.be/r5vP85WpNGM


----------



## obligated

https://youtu.be/34xtDSX_kRc

What about the kids welfare?What about justice?


----------



## obligated

http://www.silentlambs.org/BOEAUGUST2016abuse.htm

This is the Watchtower "official"guidelines on handling child molesting.Seems they care more about assets than the sheep.They should help Hildabeast campaign.They have the same broken morals.


----------



## obligated

http://www.silentlambs.org/KYMSMOORECONVICTED.htm

Just another Watchtower peddler that diddles kids.


----------



## obligated

https://youtu.be/-n4mB_OwTpQ

Barbed wire and a tall tree.New York values there.


----------



## Oak-flat Hunter

https://youtu.be/be2LtDKTYhE


----------



## centerpin fan

If you insist on bumping this tired, beaten-to-death thread by posting videos that I will not watch, please have the common decency to embed them, as the site rules require.


----------



## amoore28

1gr8bldr said:


> the ones that come to my door are very nice



So was the serpent in the garden.


----------



## kmh1031

*JWs*

Likewise many religious leaders today


----------



## Spineyman

He who has the *Son,* has life, he who has not the *Son* has not life. These words I have written unto you, that *you may KNOW* that you have eternal life!


----------



## Artfuldodger

Spineyman said:


> He who has the *Son,* has life, he who has not the *Son* has not life. These words I have written unto you, that *you may KNOW* that you have eternal life!



Can one have the Son and yet believe the Son is God incarnate(Oneness), the pre-existing spiritual Son incarnate(Trinity), the Son being the son of God and Mother Mary(Christadelphians), Jesus the adopted Son of God(Adoptionism), Jesus as Michael(JW), or God and the Son being completely different entities(Church of the LDS)? 

If one believes Jesus is the "Son" then does he have the Son? Maybe deep down in your heart, it's all about what Jesus did more than trying to explain the technicalities of how he is the Son of God.

If somehow one believes Jesus is the Son of God, and that he died for their sins, then why must they believe more as pertaining to Jesus being the Son of God?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Spineyman said:


> He who has the *Son,* has life, he who has not the *Son* has not life. These words I have written unto you, that *you may KNOW* that you have eternal life!



Can one have the Son and yet believe the Son is God incarnate(Oneness), the pre-existing spiritual Son incarnate(Trinity), the Son being the son of God and Mother Mary(Christadelphians), Jesus the adopted Son of God(Adoptionism), Jesus as Michael(JW), or God and the Son being completely different entities(Church of the LDS)? 

If one believes Jesus is the "Son" then does he have the Son? Maybe deep down in your heart, it's all about what Jesus did more than trying to explain the technicalities of
how he is the Son of God.


----------



## Jack Ryan

1gr8bldr said:


> This kind of thing is not confined to JW churches nor is represenative of them. I would not know this for sure, but I say this because I have seen equal things in other churches that I will not name



Yep.


----------



## Jack Ryan

1gr8bldr said:


> Most religions get misrepresented. So much of what you hear is contrived. But I would like to know about something that seems to be a JW belief. No blood transfusions. Can someone verify if this is for all JW's and on what they base this on.



Yes.


----------



## Spineyman

Artfuldodger said:


> Can one have the Son and yet believe the Son is God incarnate(Oneness), the pre-existing spiritual Son incarnate(Trinity), the Son being the son of God and Mother Mary(Christadelphians), Jesus the adopted Son of God(Adoptionism), Jesus as Michael(JW), or God and the Son being completely different entities(Church of the LDS)?
> 
> If one believes Jesus is the "Son" then does he have the Son? Maybe deep down in your heart, it's all about what Jesus did more than trying to explain the technicalities of
> how he is the Son of God.


It is written clearly in His Word. It also warns about adding to or taking away from His Word.

Acts 4:12

12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

 Hebrews 1:1-4

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[a] purged our* sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.*


----------



## centerpin fan




----------



## Spineyman

centerpin fan said:


>



http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16fG1sDagU


----------



## centerpin fan

Spineyman said:


> http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16fG1sDagU



1.  I can't get the link to work.

2.  Forum rules require you to embed videos.


----------



## Spineyman

Figured it out!


----------



## Spineyman




----------



## 1gr8bldr

To the JW posters on here, I have a question, not meant as an attack, but as a discussion topic. Before I go much farther let me say that much of what you believe represents the majority of my beliefs. Your the closest to mine own.... yet several points. You have not read into the scriptures as others do..... with the exception of the blood transfussions. You have been so careful not to twist scripture yet in this case you have taken scripture out of the context of which the biblical writers intended. Of course they did not have transfussions back then so we don't expect clear context on this subject, however, if it were an important doctrine then it would be up to God to make it clear. Point 2, Is it true you consider Jesus the angel Michael or is this something applied to you by your opponents? I would appreciate if you also clarified any other misrepresentations that your opponents may have applied to your belief. As with any religion, I don't expect you to deny your traditions. Traditional beliefs seem to hold more power over people than anything I know of. Regardless of which belief they belong to. Rather than cut n paste, I prefer to here it in real conversation. I may not agree and I may state my case however I will never disrespect your beliefs


----------

