# Then why are there monkeys?



## Four (Nov 21, 2012)




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## TripleXBullies (Nov 21, 2012)

Not bad... but not believable enough to convince someone that the invisible guy in the sky didn't make man from dust.


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## Four (Nov 21, 2012)

TripleXBullies said:


> Not bad... but not believable enough to convince someone that the invisible guy in the sky didn't make man from dust.



This is more specifically to combat some ignorance when it comes to evolution.

I'd rather religious people find a way to reconcile evolution and there faith so as to not impede scientific discovery.


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## stringmusic (Nov 21, 2012)

Man, it would be hard to believe all that without the factor of external intelligence, I don't see how you guys do it.


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## Oak-flat Hunter (Nov 21, 2012)

Religion Causes devision and war.Our history proves it.The moral landscape really has some issues too work out .If Society can come too grips with it.We would be better off as a speices...William Bertrand......


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## Four (Nov 21, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Man, it would be hard to believe all that without the factor of external intelligence, I don't see how you guys do it.



If that's what you need to do. To me that adds unnecessary complexity.


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## stringmusic (Nov 21, 2012)

Four said:


> To me that adds unnecessary complexity.



Not if that external intelligence is the God of the Bible, that would make if very necessary. It would also answer alot of questions, such as meaning and purpose.

You don't get a car off an assembly line without intelligence and you certianly can't get what we see everyday around us without intelligence. IMO.


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## Four (Nov 21, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Not if that external intelligence is the God of the Bible. That would make if very necessary.
> 
> You don't get a car off an assembly line without intelligence and you certianly can't get what we see everyday around us without intelligence. IMO.



In that case, you certainly can't get a deity without a LOT of intelligence.. hence the unnecessary complexity.


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## NE GA Pappy (Nov 21, 2012)

The big problem with this story is that we have NEVER seen a cross species mutation. We only have mutation within a species. There is nothing in the  fossil record that indicates that one species can mutate into anothe species.

In other words, there are NO intermediate fossils showing a fern developing into a blade of grass, or a snail developing into a cockroach.  Even the latest research show that fossils that were thought to be intermediate between reptiles and birds where in fact, their own species, not intermediate.

I wonder why with millions upon millions of fossils that have been found, not one shows these mutations?


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## stringmusic (Nov 21, 2012)

Four said:


> you certainly can't get a deity without a LOT of intelligence



There is no "getting" God, He is eternal. An eternal intelligent being is necessary for creation.


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## Four (Nov 21, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> There is no "getting" God, He is eternal. An eternal intelligent being is necessary for creation.



That's just a cop out for the Infinite Regress problem. Adding the word "eternal" to the definition of a concept doesn't fix the problem

You're adding a complex variable (the god concept is arguable the most complex variable imagined) and then saying it's no big deal because it's "eternal"


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## hummdaddy (Nov 21, 2012)

NE GA Pappy said:


> The big problem with this story is that we have NEVER seen a cross species mutation. We only have mutation within a species. There is nothing in the  fossil record that indicates that one species can mutate into anothe species.
> 
> In other words, there are NO intermediate fossils showing a fern developing into a blade of grass, or a snail developing into a cockroach.  Even the latest research show that fossils that were thought to be intermediate between reptiles and birds where in fact, their own species, not intermediate.
> 
> I wonder why with millions upon millions of fossils that have been found, not one shows these mutations?



http://www.oddee.com/item_96881.aspx

been done ,being done,who say's it hasn't been done


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## Four (Nov 21, 2012)

NE GA Pappy said:


> The big problem with this story is that we have NEVER seen a cross species mutation. We only have mutation within a species. There is nothing in the  fossil record that indicates that one species can mutate into anothe species.
> 
> In other words, there are NO intermediate fossils showing a fern developing into a blade of grass, or a snail developing into a cockroach.  Even the latest research show that fossils that were thought to be intermediate between reptiles and birds where in fact, their own species, not intermediate.
> 
> I wonder why with millions upon millions of fossils that have been found, not one shows these mutations?



That's a misunderstanding of evolution.

Two points..

1. The definition of species is not concrete. 

2. All fossils / species are "intermediate"  It's not discrete, its continuous.  we (humans) just name species because its what we do, its categorical.. which makes it seem discrete. I believe you're using a common creationist argument that there is no such thing as  "macro" evolution. posturing that species can change and mutate but will never change species....

Here is a picture that i find best illustrates the issue


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## stringmusic (Nov 21, 2012)

Four said:


> That's just a cop out for the Infinite Regress problem. Adding the word "eternal" to the definition of a concept doesn't fix the problem


The infinite regress problem is not mine, it becomes a problem when the illogical assertion is made that all matter is eternal.



> You're adding a complex variable (the god concept is arguable the most complex variable imagined) and then saying it's no big deal because it's "eternal"



God Himself may be complex, but adding an eternal intelligent being to the discussion of how that first cell in the OP arrived in this world is a necessity to logical consistency.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 21, 2012)

You can see one species slowly changing into another right here in western NC. Many of the highest peaks are surrounded by warmer, drier, lower elevation areas, so the animals that need a cool, damp environmenton the mountaintops got trapped on the mountaintops at the end of the Pleistocene, with each mountain being like an island surrounded by inhospitable habitat in a warming climate. Salamanders of the same species, for example, and several other critters are often subtly different on seperate peaks only a few miles from each other. Some have even changed more dramatically into another seperate species, and that's in only about 10,000 years.


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## JFS (Nov 21, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> The infinite regress problem is not mine



Actually it's worse than that for you.  You can't show god exists now, much less that its eternal.  Very amusing.  At least matter has a start from which to regress.


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## Oak-flat Hunter (Nov 21, 2012)

http://www1.anthro.utah.edu/~rogers/ant1050/Lectures/spchange-2x3.pdf


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## stringmusic (Nov 21, 2012)

JFS said:


> Actually it's worse than that for you.  You can't show god exists now, much less that its eternal.  Very amusing.  At least matter has a start from which to regress.


"If JFS can't see it, it doesn't exist"

I can show a need for an intelligent eternal being for non-eternal matter to exist in the first place.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 21, 2012)

laskerknight said:


> Religion Causes devision and war.Our history proves it.The moral landscape really has some issues too work out .If Society can come too grips with it.We would be better off as a speices...William Bertrand......



 In a recent political poll here atheists voted the same slate as christians. So that religion has issues with morality is only part of the enigma... cause in politics despite the talk the walk is the the same for both.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 21, 2012)

Living on a flat earth located under a firmament has caused lots of mutations. An example would be the Nephilim race.


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## JFS (Nov 21, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> I can show a need for an intelligent eternal being for non-eternal matter to exist in the first place.



So it's the god of the intellectual gaps then.  OK, let's hear it..


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## JFS (Nov 21, 2012)

Four said:


> It's not discrete, its continuous.



Just reading today in fact:


http://news.discovery.com/animals/birds-dinosaur-gliders-feathers-20121121.html

_Evidence is mounting that modern birds descended from gliding, feathered non-avian dinosaurs.....  "Where dinosaurs end and birds begin is a bit arbitrary," Longrich explained. "There's no clear cutoff that separates one from the other. That's the nature of evolution; things gradually change from one thing into another."_


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## ambush80 (Nov 21, 2012)

JFS said:


> So it's the god of the intellectual gaps then.  OK, let's hear it..



Here comes some Willard......


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 21, 2012)

Thanks Four, although  I don't buy in, it is always interesting to understand the evolution debate.


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## ross the deer slayer (Nov 22, 2012)

So how did the first common ancestor get here? That's my big question


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## mtnwoman (Nov 23, 2012)

Four said:


> This is more specifically to combat some ignorance when it comes to evolution.
> 
> I'd rather religious people find a way to reconcile evolution and there faith so as to not impede scientific discovery.



We are not impeding scientific discovery. Are you kidding?
Any scientific discovery has always been here...from scipture..nothing is new under the sun...OT, too.

You don't think that we believe God gave someone the knowledge to discover things? things that were not created by scientists....just discovered them...if you think that scientists are so brilliant for discovering these things, why wouldn't you also believe that a bigger brilliant scientist could've created those things? It just happens to all fit together...gravity, sun, moon, tides, birth, animals, humans, flowers...etc etc etc.

I believe God inspired scientists to give us, polio vaccine....what was that 'created out of'? Antibiotics...
'created' out of mold? Things that were already on earth...I just believe scientists are the ones that God has called to 'discover', whether they know it or not...or whether they or you just think they are so brilliant for discovering something that has always been here. And scientists are a god to some. Let's see them create something....anything.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 23, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Living on a flat earth located under a firmament has caused lots of mutations. An example would be the Nephilim race.



Even the OT tells us the earth was a sphere.....nobody believed it....


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## mtnwoman (Nov 23, 2012)

NE GA Pappy said:


> The big problem with this story is that we have NEVER seen a cross species mutation. We only have mutation within a species. There is nothing in the  fossil record that indicates that one species can mutate into anothe species.
> 
> In other words, there are NO intermediate fossils showing a fern developing into a blade of grass, or a snail developing into a cockroach.  Even the latest research show that fossils that were thought to be intermediate between reptiles and birds where in fact, their own species, not intermediate.
> 
> I wonder why with millions upon millions of fossils that have been found, not one shows these mutations?



Nice post!


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## JFS (Nov 23, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Nice post!



Except that it's wrong.

http://news.discovery.com/animals/dinosaurs-birds-evolution.html


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 23, 2012)

I've noticed the skeletons of birds look like the skeletons of dinosuars.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 23, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Even the OT tells us the earth was a sphere.....nobody believed it....



What I was getting at is, why is it ok to explains some Biblical events scientifically but not other biblical events? Can science and the Bible coexist? The Bible and it's meaning even before it was written were told for the people living at the time and for future generations. Jesus didn't tell parables about cars, factories,& black holes because it wouldn't have made any sense to the people he was teaching. If I explain a rainbow scientifically, it doesn't take away it's Biblical meaning. If people didn't know that a Bat was not a bird, why not just include it as a bird? It doesn't mean the bible got it wrong.
It reminds me of Galileo. The Church took offense to his scientific findings that they believed contradicted the Bible.


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## hummdaddy (Nov 23, 2012)

http://www.globalanimal.org/2011/07/11/the-origin-of-the-polar-bear/44986/

polar bears came from brown bears


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 23, 2012)

Reverse-Evolution: Cave fish go blind.

http://www.icr.org/article/6613/


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## mtnwoman (Nov 23, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> What I was getting at is, why is it ok to explains some Biblical events scientifically but not other biblical events? Can science and the Bible coexist? The Bible and it's meaning even before it was written were told for the people living at the time and for future generations. Jesus didn't tell parables about cars, factories,& black holes because it wouldn't have made any sense to the people he was teaching. If I explain a rainbow scientifically, it doesn't take away it's Biblical meaning. If people didn't know that a Bat was not a bird, why not just include it as a bird? It doesn't mean the bible got it wrong.
> It reminds me of Galileo. The Church took offense to his scientific findings that they believed contradicted the Bible.



I know, I agree. satan at work against the church...a God that can 'use' anyone to get His work done. And God is no respector of persons, so He can use a nonbelieving scientist to accomplish His Good Will/Grace for the benefit of 'all'.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 23, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've noticed the skeletons of birds look like the skeletons of dinosuars.



I realize that, too. There are skeletons of dinosaurs that look like dinosauers, too. Doesn't mean God isn't in control.
God created everything.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 24, 2012)

What if God created everything _through the process of evolution_? Why is that so hard to believe? How long is a day to God?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 24, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I know, I agree. satan at work against the church...a God that can 'use' anyone to get His work done. And God is no respector of persons, so He can use a nonbelieving scientist to accomplish His Good Will/Grace for the benefit of 'all'.



I don't know if Galileo was a Christian or not and of course God can use non-believers for his work. Do you not believe the work of Galileo? Most Christians now do, but not then. That was the point i was making. 1000's of years from now most Christians might believe in evolution. Most Christians today believe man once went to the moon and that it was ok to go. At the time man went to the moon some Christians didn't believe they went. Some Christians believe they went but it was wrong. (If God wanted us on the moon, he would have put us there.) My answer was: if God wanted us on the moon, he'd give us the ability to get there.


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## hummdaddy (Nov 24, 2012)

NCHillbilly said:


> What if God created everything _through the process of evolution_? Why is that so hard to believe? How long is a day to God?



the original god is energy


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## BobKat (Nov 27, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> So how did the first common ancestor get here? That's my big question



 from evolving from a tadpole that crawled out the mud....     thats my question to


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2012)

I've often wondered about the Key deer. Why are they small? After all they are just a White-tailed deer. If you brought a mating couple back to Georgia would generations of the offspring eventually be big again? What is this process called? In nature it's called Natural Selection. Can a Christian believe in this process or does it go against the Bible?


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## ted_BSR (Nov 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've often wondered about the Key deer. Why are they small? After all they are just a White-tailed deer. If you brought a mating couple back to Georgia would generations of the offspring eventually be big again? What is this process called? In nature it's called Natural Selection. Can a Christian believe in this process or does it go against the Bible?



Key deer would remain small, or more likely die in an extreme northern environment. They would never evolve into cats, or donkeys, or monkeys, or snails, or humans.

I think it is once again important to define evolution.
Is it "change over time", or is it "speciation"?
Well, who defines species? I think it is us.
So, maybe your definition of evolution is "the origin of man, evolved from single celled organisms"?

I am curious to hear (read) some definitions of evolution.


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## Four (Nov 28, 2012)

BobKat said:


> from evolving from a tadpole that crawled out the mud....     thats my question to



All life on the planet shares a common ancestor. Naturally some go pretty far back.

check it out! (bil file)

http://www.zo.utexas.edu/faculty/antisense/tree.pdf


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 28, 2012)

ted_BSR said:


> Key deer would remain small, or more likely die in an extreme northern environment. They would never evolve into cats, or donkeys, or monkeys, or snails, or humans.
> 
> I think it is once again important to define evolution.
> Is it "change over time", or is it "speciation"?
> ...



So given enough time the AIDS virus didn't just show up. Was it on the Ark? A non-biblical dinasoar could never mutate into a Biblical bird? A mammal could never return to the ocean and soon take on the appearance of a fish?


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## RangerZ21 (Nov 29, 2012)

the op aske WHY ARE THERE MONKEYS.... THE ANSWER is GOD CREATED THEM>  NO FURHTER DEBATE OVER THIS.. READ YOUR BIBLE AND YOU WILL KNOW THIS


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## Four (Nov 29, 2012)

RangerZ21 said:


> the op aske WHY ARE THERE MONKEYS.... THE ANSWER is GOD CREATED THEM>  NO FURHTER DEBATE OVER THIS.. READ YOUR BIBLE AND YOU WILL KNOW THIS



ahh, the Bible.. #1 cause of christian to atheist conversion


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## ambush80 (Nov 29, 2012)

RangerZ21 said:


> the op aske WHY ARE THERE MONKEYS.... THE ANSWER is GOD CREATED THEM>  NO FURHTER DEBATE OVER THIS.. READ YOUR BIBLE AND YOU WILL KNOW THIS



Read it (actually it was a borrowed copy KJV).....Still don't know it.


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## BobKat (Dec 3, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Read it (actually it was a borrowed copy KJV).....Still don't know it.



I usually feel more confused by it than when i started when i read it.


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## ambush80 (Dec 3, 2012)

BobKat said:


> I usually feel more confused by it than when i started when i read it.



And that will keep happening until you just believe by faith.


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## BobKat (Dec 10, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> And that will keep happening until you just believe by faith.



I believe just not to sure about the bible.....


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## stringmusic (Dec 10, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> And that will keep happening until you just believe by faith.


What a load.....



BobKat said:


> I believe just not to sure about the bible.....



If you want to be sure about the bible, pray before you read it, and ask God to reveal the truth in it. Get yourself a good study bible, or even the apologetics study bible and read it.


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## ambush80 (Dec 10, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> What a load.....
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to be sure about the bible, pray before you read it, and ask God to reveal the truth in it. Get yourself a good study bible, or even the apologetics study bible and read it.



Are you telling me that reading and believing Bible with child like faith won't make all the confusion negligible?


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## stringmusic (Dec 10, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Are you telling me that reading and believing Bible with child like faith won't make all the confusion negligible?



Why are you assuming everyone is confused about the bible?


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## ambush80 (Dec 10, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Why are you assuming everyone is confused about the bible?



I don't think that at all.  I've seen first hand what it looks like when someone KNOWS EXACTLY what the Bible says.


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## ted_BSR (Dec 10, 2012)

JFS said:


> Except that it's wrong.
> 
> http://news.discovery.com/animals/dinosaurs-birds-evolution.html



Someone made up the feathers. there is no evidence in the fossils that it was feathered, the bird discussion is because of the hands. Wait, birds don't have hands? Oh crud, the text just turned purple! I must have missed something!


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## ted_BSR (Dec 10, 2012)

hummdaddy said:


> http://www.globalanimal.org/2011/07/11/the-origin-of-the-polar-bear/44986/
> 
> polar bears came from brown bears



Right, they did not come from snails. Correct. Thanks.


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## TripleXBullies (Dec 11, 2012)

I am amazed that you speak with such a factual absolute here. You believe that it is a fact that evolution like that is factually impossible? 

I see that much more likely than the god of the bible, but I still can't say with absolute certainty that there is no being that can sit on clouds.



ted_BSR said:


> Key deer would remain small, or more likely die in an extreme northern environment. They would never evolve into cats, or donkeys, or monkeys, or snails, or humans.


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## BobKat (Dec 11, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> What a load.....
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to be sure about the bible, pray before you read it, and ask God to reveal the truth in it. Get yourself a good study bible, or even the apologetics study bible and read it.



I just feel like that the bible has been changed so much over so many years that whos to say the translation didnt get turned around. In one part of the old testament it was considered ok for people to be stoned to death but then you have the 10 commandments where you should not kill and now if you murder someone you are going never going to heaven   if you are Gay, or lesbian you are not worthy of heaven ( atleast this is how i was taught) I dont think an all might god that created us in his/her image will do that. but then again iv never met them either. .... 



Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?


Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)

I think this quote sums it up


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## JFS (Dec 11, 2012)

ted_BSR said:


> Someone made up the feathers. there is no evidence in the fossils that it was feathered, the bird discussion is because of the hands. !



There is more to the evolutionary link then feathers, so I don't get your point.  If you want to discuss feathers there is plenty of room for that too.


http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=LFbHUICbDYe70QGVyYGoAg&ved=0CDIQ9QEwCQ


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## stringmusic (Dec 11, 2012)

BobKat said:


> I just feel like that the bible has been changed so much over so many years that whos to say the translation didnt get turned around. In one part of the old testament it was considered ok for people to be stoned to death but then you have the 10 commandments where you should not kill and now if you murder someone you are going never going to heaven   if you are Gay, or lesbian you are not worthy of heaven ( atleast this is how i was taught) I dont think an all might god that created us in his/her image will do that. but then again iv never met them either. ....


If you really want answers to those questions, keep reading and learning. 

Check out this site.... http://carm.org/ Read through it and gain a good understanding of the bible and Christian doctrine. You can also watch some of Ravi Zacherias' youtube videos.

Here is one.....


The most important thing is praying(even if you don't know how) and reading God's word and asking Him to reveal Himself to you.




> Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?
> 
> 
> Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)
> ...


I started a thread based on this quote a couple of years ago, here is the OP......
http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=5440624&postcount=1


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## shakey gizzard (Dec 11, 2012)

Four said:


>



To spread the seeds of the banana!


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## ted_BSR (Dec 11, 2012)

TripleXBullies said:


> I am amazed that you speak with such a factual absolute here. You believe that it is a fact that evolution like that is factually impossible?
> 
> I see that much more likely than the god of the bible, but I still can't say with absolute certainty that there is no being that can sit on clouds.



Indeed.

I don't think God sits on clouds either.


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## foggycypressbassin (Jan 8, 2013)

I respect you more now  stringmusic hit me up if you ever need someone to tag along on the water


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## mtnwoman (Jan 8, 2013)

NCHillbilly said:


> What if God created everything _through the process of evolution_? Why is that so hard to believe? How long is a day to God?



I personally have no problem with that...I can dig it.

Since we are in His likeness...most people that are creative have their beginning ideas that evolve into other ideas. Most of us evolve in our creativity. When I first started stringing beads, it was very elementary..just a small single string of multicolor tiny beads to fit around a Native American doll (necklace)....after many many years my creativity has evolved greatly into now I make my own one of a kind glass beads, using a torch and glass. Not comparing myself to what God can do. But I wasn't satisfied with what I first created. I dunno, I just don't doubt the possibility that it all could've happened that way.

I've been told many times on this forum that we evolved from apes....so now we didn't? What's up with that theory? Oh I know...nobody knows for sure....that's the problem, ain't it?


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## mtnwoman (Jan 8, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I don't think that at all.  I've seen first hand what it looks like when someone KNOWS EXACTLY what the Bible says.



I've seen it first hand what it looks like when someone KNOWS EXACTLY where we came from, too. You can't prove you didn't come from no monkey, can you?


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## ted_BSR (Jan 8, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> I've seen it first hand what it looks like when someone KNOWS EXACTLY where we came from, too. You can't prove you didn't come from no monkey, can you?



Careful, that is the kind of quote Ambush wants to use for his tag line!


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## shane256 (Jan 11, 2013)

NCHillbilly said:


> What if God created everything _through the process of evolution_? Why is that so hard to believe? How long is a day to God?



That's one way of looking at religion... God created the initial conditions and rules (gravitational constant, etc.) of the 'experiment' and set it free to run its course and watch what happens. That's also a good explanation of Free Will. There's nothing that says that 4.5B years ago someone that we consider a supreme/omnipotent being didn't start up this grand experiment. The problem is the Fundies and the Young Earthers. They believe that to think such things is blasphemous. 

However, as the old saying goes... extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Christianity begs the question: There is a God because The Bible says there's a God and God created The Bible.

Science is nothing but the observation, study, and attempt to explain nature. By definition, a deity is conveniently supernatural (outside of nature). Scientific observation (theories, laws, etc.) come about because they are testable. The Big Bang Theory, for example, may or may not be ultimately 100% correct but the model does very accurately describe and predict many things that we observe. As time goes on, it will be added to, taken from, refined, etc. as our understanding grows. Just like we have calculated the Universal Gravitation Constant. It works and lets us predict and describe things. Why is it what it is and how does it work? Still trying to figure that part out 

Another good example is Newtonian Physics/Motion. A model that worked great until we started thinking about things at near light speed then it broke down. It's still a good model to use for stuff like bullets, airplanes, bridges, etc. when you don't need to take into account Relativistic variables. Newtonian Physics is just a simplification.

This is just like our simple algebraic equations for movement... distance, time, velocity, acceleration. If you hold those things as constant (acceleration is a constant, etc.) then distance is just rate times time. Velocity is just one half acceleration times how long you accelerate at that rate squared. In reality, rate/velocity or acceleration of that is constant... they are equations themselves. And that's where Calculus comes in  Derivatives and integrals where acceleration is a curve (non-constant) itself. The algebraic equations are derived as simplifications of the Calculus equations... instead of acceleration being a curve, hold it constant and the equation simplifies.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 11, 2013)

shane256;7538680
 This is just like our simple algebraic equations for movement... distance said:
			
		

> I was just expressing my Christian views of being able to explain things both Biblical and Scientifically.
> I know you don't hold this view but looking at your views, do you feel we, as humans, have any control or are the variables in the equations filled by determinism or randomness?


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## shane256 (Jan 12, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I was just expressing my Christian views of being able to explain things both Biblical and Scientifically.



Yup. Lots of folks do that. As I said... there isn't really anything that prohibits the idea that God set up everything and just let it start running. God and evolution can coexist. So can God and a 4.5B year old Earth.



> I know you don't hold this view



I think God and science coexist (they must, actually, if we believe God exists). Otherwise... why dinosaur bones? I guess I've seen some folks say the Devil put those there just for the purpose of casting doubt and luring people away from God...



> but looking at your views, do you feel we, as humans, have any control or are the variables in the equations filled by determinism or randomness?



Which ones? And at what level? At the macro level (like us, cars, etc.) we have models but when you get way down small, like at the atomic level, our models are based on probabilities and such. Down a the quantum level, things get really weird. The String Theory models, for example are all about that kind of stuff... many dimensions (26!) (where basically dimension = variable), etc... all those variables are there to try to take into account the complexity that we see (which is how we understand/model things at that level right now).

As far as the ideas of things like destiny, etc... that's a whole different topic... I'm not a philosopher but the idea of something in the your future being set in stone (a la destiny/fate) seems to contradict the idea of Free Will. If you go the other way, the universe is nothing but a giant, enormously complex finite state machine... there is no Free Will. Of course, to us, that FSM is so complex that it may still look like random/whatever, but that's just because we don't understand it, yet (or could model it). Perhaps to model it, because it is so complex, it might require a whole other universe


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## mtnwoman (Jan 28, 2013)

JFS said:


> Actually it's worse than that for you.  You can't show god exists now, much less that its eternal.  Very amusing.  At least matter has a start from which to regress.



What I really want to know is where did that matter come from? Anybody proven that as of yet? If so I certainly haven't been shown any proof of that, either. What's the difference?


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## mtnwoman (Jan 28, 2013)

I certainly believe science and God do co-exist. The scientists use everything that God created to discover what they discover. Who gave them the wisdom to do so? Did it take time to 'evolve' into the kinds of medicines we know today that could've saved thousands of people years and years ago?  In the OT is says everything God provided on this earth is for our healing, all the herbs, etc. And science has proven that to be true....what's the problem with that? Why does it have to be one or the other, why can't it be both?


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## Four (Jan 29, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> In the OT is says everything God provided on this earth is for our healing, all the herbs, etc.



asbestos, poison ivy, poison oak, Acontium (wolfsbane)


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 29, 2013)

Uranium, tritium


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## mtnwoman (Jan 29, 2013)

Four said:


> asbestos, poison ivy, poison oak, Acontium (wolfsbane)



I don't know about you but I drive on asbestos every day. Only since penicillin was discovered by a brilliant scientist did anyone think that mold was a good thing either....right? Thousands or millions of years went by before someone thought of mold as being good, eh?

Wolfsbane is a beautiful flowering herb, and looks great in any garden, especially with shamrocks. What's bad about that?

I don't know what poison oak or poison ivy is good for, maybe some scientist can tell us...whatcha think? I do know it's sort of like a vaccination, a flu shot, once you have a hidious outbreak of it, you are usually immune to it, I personally know that for a fact.  Other than that, I don't know yet.

Let me ask you about these valuable healing/usefull plants.... 

What about lavender, poppies, coca plant, aloe, apples, oranges, lemons, tomatoes, potatoes, broccolli, corn, hemp, rye, wheat, grass, beans, beautiful ornamental sweet potato plants and the fruit thereof, seaweed, algae, peppers, cabbage, rosemary, thyme, valernian root, comfry,  AND mold, on and on and on....you pick the negative and I'll pick the positive and that's a fact Jack.  

Let's see scientists have produced plastic...hmmm that's good...pampers....hmmm that's good.  Styrofoam that's good... but scientists have also taken organic plants and made healing compounds for us, too. So let's see, I choose both....the created and the discovered from that which was created.


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## Four (Jan 30, 2013)

you said everything god put on this earth is for our healing.. which is just straight up wrong.

Unless you're talking about some wonky new age "healing" like the wolfsbane might make you sick if injested, but in your garden it "heals" your spirit with its beauty.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 30, 2013)

Four said:


> you said everything god put on this earth is for our healing.. which is just straight up wrong.
> 
> Unless you're talking about some wonky new age "healing" like the wolfsbane might make you sick if injested, but in your garden it "heals" your spirit with its beauty.



No what I said was God put everything here for the good of man. I did say about the healing herbs, too. But that was just an example because it's something I know a bit about. I mentioned fossil fuels, too, surely you wouldn't think that I thought that was something healing, would you?  Most of our prescription meds come from plants. Some things have been concocted by scientists that are not good, like plastic.  Plastic isn't organic. Everything any researcher has ever discovered was a discovery not a creation. They took things from created things and made something out of it. Name one thing that was created out of nothing that a scientist has come up with.

Newagers worship the created not the creator. I've been there. Then I began to wonder and came to understand that there was a creator of all this. I studied herbs and plants and learned a lot about them and it then led me to another place. I even believed I had a spiritual guide and I did, the Holy Spirit. So that was my journey on that subject.

Anyway, I was thinking about it and I don't drive around on asbestos all day....I admit, I can be a nitwit sometimes...lol.

I believe God was the ultimate scientist and scientists discover that more and more every day, whether they themselves believe it or not.


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## Four (Jan 31, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> No what I said was God put everything here for the good of man. I did say about the healing herbs, too. But that was just an example because it's something I know a bit about. I mentioned fossil fuels, too, surely you wouldn't think that I thought that was something healing, would you?  Most of our prescription meds come from plants. Some things have been concocted by scientists that are not good, like plastic.  Plastic isn't organic. Everything any researcher has ever discovered was a discovery not a creation. They took things from created things and made something out of it. Name one thing that was created out of nothing that a scientist has come up with.
> 
> Newagers worship the created not the creator. I've been there. Then I began to wonder and came to understand that there was a creator of all this. I studied herbs and plants and learned a lot about them and it then led me to another place. I even believed I had a spiritual guide and I did, the Holy Spirit. So that was my journey on that subject.
> 
> ...



I wasn't sure were you were going with the asbestos driving.. so i ignored it.  All this talk about god putting thing on earth to heal us etc reminds me of this... which i think points more to it as punishment.



			
				Yahweh Genesis 3:17 said:
			
		

> To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
> 
> “Cursed is the ground because of you;
> through painful toil you will eat food from it
> ...



This looks like the opposite of what you're talking about.. the ground is cursed, it looks even like god put thorns on plans to hurt man when he needed to feed.


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## dixiedoug (Jan 31, 2013)

Why are you so mad at God?  Are you afraid of Him?


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## Four (Jan 31, 2013)

dixiedoug said:


> Why are you so mad at God?  Are you afraid of Him?



Not afraid, i'm mad! He used to be my roommate but he kept kicking my dog, so i threw him out. 

Dude still owes me money!


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## hunter rich (Jan 31, 2013)

dixiedoug said:


> Why are you so mad at God?  Are you afraid of Him?



Can't be "mad at" or "afraid of" something you don't believe exists...


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 31, 2013)

Are thorns here because god got angry at us? Or are they here because of evolution? Which one has evidence is one question.... which one would you rather believe??

The good, loving god broke his own love rule. Slow to anger... He was POed....


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## mtnwoman (Jan 31, 2013)

Four said:


> I wasn't sure were you were going with the asbestos driving.. so i ignored it.  All this talk about god putting thing on earth to heal us etc reminds me of this... which i think points more to it as punishment.
> 
> 
> 
> This looks like the opposite of what you're talking about.. the ground is cursed, it looks even like god put thorns on plans to hurt man when he needed to feed.




I am thankful for all the food that comes from the ground. Yes we have to toil for it whether we grow our own or use the money we work for, to buy food.

God had provided a fully stocked garden for Adam and he had to do nothing to have it, except obey God. Adam didn't so God told him you will now toil for your food...which most of us do today (thanks Adam lol) If we're lucky/blessed enough to have a job or lucky/blessed enough to provide food for our children. We are a blessed nation.

I'd rather eat organic food that grows without the manmade chemicals to make them grow or keep the bugs off them. There are organic ways to help things grow, cow dung, and to keep the bugs off, geraniums. 

As far as thorns go I don't know what they are good for except to keep the birds out of my blackberry patch. Otherwise I don't know that I eat anything much off a thorny plant...like roses, etc. And there's hardly anything I like that doesn't have herb seasoning on it. You may see it all negatively, but I don't.  I see most things that I eat or deal with come from the earth and not from man. How much good food is grown in the ground compared to a thorn or two here and there....I find there's much more to be grateful for than not.

That's just my opinion, though.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 31, 2013)

But Jesus loves me 

I love my daughter, so I try to make her toil for her food.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 31, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> But Jesus loves me
> 
> I love my daughter, so I try to make her toil for her food.



Adam was an adult not a child. My parents taught all of their children how to work, not all of them minded them. I did and I could buy food for myself and my children...and no I didn't have to as a child...but I did work when I wanted to make all my own decisions. I suppose you don't toil for your daughter's food then...well you're one of the lucky ones that don't have to toil....lol.


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## dominantpredator (Feb 18, 2013)

Did all this occur before or after Adam and Eve?


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## dominantpredator (Feb 18, 2013)

There will be no atheists in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -....everyone there will be a believer


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## bullethead (Feb 20, 2013)

dominantpredator said:


> There will be no atheists in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -....everyone there will be a believer



A believer in what??


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## bullethead (Feb 20, 2013)

dominantpredator said:


> Did all this occur before or after Adam and Eve?



Did all "what" occur before or after Adam and Eve.

Since your into puzzles try to figure out when or better yet if Adam and Eve occurred.


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## dominantpredator (Feb 20, 2013)

bullethead said:


> A believer in what??



A believer in God


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## dominantpredator (Feb 20, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Did all "what" occur before or after Adam and Eve.
> 
> Since your into puzzles try to figure out when or better yet if Adam and Eve occurred.



Im not into puzzles jack......
I already know Adam and Eve occurred....we are all here aren't we? I would be willing to bet you know very little about any of it.


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## bullethead (Feb 20, 2013)

dominantpredator said:


> Im not into puzzles jack......
> I already know Adam and Eve occurred....we are all here aren't we? I would be willing to bet you know very little about any of it.



We are all here so that makes the Adam and Eve story true.........and "I" am the one that knows very little about any of it.......
Teach me pleeeeze.


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## Four (Feb 20, 2013)

dominantpredator said:


> Im not into puzzles jack......
> I already know Adam and Eve occurred....we are all here aren't we? I would be willing to bet you know very little about any of it.



I don't believe you're conclusion follows the premise.

Non Sequitur


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## TheBishop (Feb 21, 2013)

dominantpredator said:


> Im not into puzzles jack......
> I already know Adam and Eve occurred....we are all here aren't we? I would be willing to bet you know very little about any of it.



Are you related to MTNWOMAN?


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## dawg2 (Feb 21, 2013)

Four said:


> asbestos, poison ivy, poison oak, Acontium (wolfsbane)



Asbestos is also very useful, but there are issues with it.

Poison oak/ivy has been used as a medicinal herb (Toxicodendrin).

Acontium is also used medicinally.  So are a LOT of toxic plant compounds like foxglove (digitin).  The list is nearly endless.

There is a point where a "dose" is medicinal and beyond that...toxic or harmful.


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## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2013)

dawg2 said:


> Asbestos is also very useful, but there are issues with it.
> 
> Poison oak/ivy has been used as a medicinal herb (Toxicodendrin).
> 
> ...



"In the land of the Free, it grows naturally.
I say if it burns you can smoke it"

             --Stonehouse Posse


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## JB0704 (Feb 22, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> "In the land of the Free, it grows naturally.
> I say if it burns you can smoke it"
> 
> --Stone House Posse



Not sure I'd smoke poison ivy.....no matter how well it burned


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## ambush80 (Feb 22, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Not sure I'd smoke poison ivy.....no matter how well it burned



But you can if you want to.


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## JB0704 (Feb 22, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> But you can if you want to.



On this, we can certainly agree!


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## gemcgrew (Feb 23, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Not sure I'd smoke poison ivy.....no matter how well it burned


The worse case of poison ivy I've had was from burning it.
I know people who make poison ivy tea when the leaves are most potent. They do this every year to maintain immunity.


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## dominantpredator (Feb 26, 2013)

It was noted earlier that some believe the Bible has been changed several times through out the translations. Most people believe that; I do too. I believe that all lies originate from evil. Men are evil as well. Man has twisted the scriptures I am certain. However, by studying the bible in a language you can understand you can move on to research on your own those same scriptures in the original languages. By doing this, you are given an insight as to what the scripture actually reads. I think most are confused about God....God, the existence and origination of God, is too much for us to understand. I am a man of faith in my creator. He has revealed to me many of splendid wonders created by his own. He has provided for me when I needed him. He has told of the events to come and the events that have passed. I have faith in what the bible says....the individual account of a person is based on faith, not works nor status. Without God, nothing is possible....for there is nothing. God made all things. Man has made nothing. Don't take my word for it....nor any man's word. Do your own studies. Do so without prejudice. Do so to prove to yourself. The very thought of accusing/denying God without seeking the right information and studies is ignorant. There is so much to learn to complete the story for those who want a detailed look at all....some people just need to hear a small bit of Jesus and his love for mankind to totally accept the story. The bible is hard to read I admit. I asked God to open my eyes and he has. I don't read as much as I should and would be called by some a hypocrite. There will always be persecution. I understand the only place to go for me is heaven. None of us deserve to go except by the grace of God. I wish you all understood the importance of God in your life and in our history. And yes, I believe man has been a tool for the evil deceiver in many ways.


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## ambush80 (Feb 26, 2013)

dominantpredator said:


> It was noted earlier that some believe the Bible has been changed several times through out the translations. Most people believe that; I do too. I believe that all lies originate from evil. Men are evil as well. Man has twisted the scriptures I am certain. However, by studying the bible in a language you can understand you can move on to research on your own those same scriptures in the original languages. By doing this, you are given an insight as to what the scripture actually reads. I think most are confused about God....God, the existence and origination of God, is too much for us to understand. I am a man of faith in my creator. He has revealed to me many of splendid wonders created by his own. He has provided for me when I needed him. He has told of the events to come and the events that have passed. I have faith in what the bible says....the individual account of a person is based on faith, not works nor status. Without God, nothing is possible....for there is nothing. God made all things. Man has made nothing. Don't take my word for it....nor any man's word. Do your own studies. Do so without prejudice. Do so to prove to yourself. The very thought of accusing/denying God without seeking the right information and studies is ignorant. There is so much to learn to complete the story for those who want a detailed look at all....some people just need to hear a small bit of Jesus and his love for mankind to totally accept the story. The bible is hard to read I admit. I asked God to open my eyes and he has. I don't read as much as I should and would be called by some a hypocrite. There will always be persecution. I understand the only place to go for me is heaven. None of us deserve to go except by the grace of God. I wish you all understood the importance of God in your life and in our history. And yes, I believe man has been a tool for the evil deceiver in many ways.



I suppose the correct response is "Amen! Halleluja!"


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## bullethead (Feb 26, 2013)

dominantpredator said:


> It was noted earlier that some believe the Bible has been changed several times through out the translations. Most people believe that; I do too. I believe that all lies originate from evil. Men are evil as well. Man has twisted the scriptures I am certain. However, by studying the bible in a language you can understand you can move on to research on your own those same scriptures in the original languages. By doing this, you are given an insight as to what the scripture actually reads. I think most are confused about God....God, the existence and origination of God, is too much for us to understand. I am a man of faith in my creator. He has revealed to me many of splendid wonders created by his own. He has provided for me when I needed him. He has told of the events to come and the events that have passed. I have faith in what the bible says....the individual account of a person is based on faith, not works nor status. Without God, nothing is possible....for there is nothing. God made all things. Man has made nothing. Don't take my word for it....nor any man's word. Do your own studies. Do so without prejudice. Do so to prove to yourself. The very thought of accusing/denying God without seeking the right information and studies is ignorant. There is so much to learn to complete the story for those who want a detailed look at all....some people just need to hear a small bit of Jesus and his love for mankind to totally accept the story. The bible is hard to read I admit. I asked God to open my eyes and he has. I don't read as much as I should and would be called by some a hypocrite. There will always be persecution. I understand the only place to go for me is heaven. None of us deserve to go except by the grace of God. I wish you all understood the importance of God in your life and in our history. And yes, I believe man has been a tool for the evil deceiver in many ways.



Been there, Done that, Didn't work.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 26, 2013)

TheBishop said:


> Are you related to MTNWOMAN?



I resemble that remark...

However if he is a son of God, that makes him my brother. So yes in the spiritual realm we are related.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 26, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> The worse case of poison ivy I've had was from burning it.
> I



Me, too, and my daddy and younger brother.....geez dad...lol. But you're right about the immunity part, too, never ever had it since, kinda like a flu shot, or a measles shot, or a small pox shot.


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