# Question for believers lurking in the AAA forum



## Six million dollar ham (Oct 21, 2010)

....or anybody else for that matter but I'd like to hear from believers mostly.

Why did God not bless human beings with the ability to sense that He exists?  I guess this could be viewed two different ways...why does He choose to remain insensible with our 5 senses OR why did He not bestow on us a 6th sense that would indeed make Him easily sensed?


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## Nicodemus (Oct 21, 2010)

Who says he did not? The Native American people knew of a greater spirit, long before any Europeans set foot on this continent and made contact with them. How did they know?


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## crbrumbelow (Oct 21, 2010)

So if you can't see something, you don't believe it exists? We believe in many things that we can't see. Have you ever seen the wind? Have you seen history? We see the effects of the wind, but the wind is invisible. We have records of history, but it is by 'faith' we believe that certain historical events happened. Television waves are invisible, but an antenna and a receiver can detect their presence. Do you know that you have a receiver? Your 'receiver' (your spirit) is dead because of sin (see Ephesians 2:1). You need to be plugged into the life of God, and then you will come alive and be aware of the invisible spiritual realm. Do you think that you have kept the Ten Commandments?


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## Six million dollar ham (Oct 21, 2010)

Address the questions asked if you don't mind.  Thanks.


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## Six million dollar ham (Oct 21, 2010)

Nicodemus said:


> Who says he did not?



Every single Christian that describes how you have to have faith and just "know" that God exists, etc.  That's who.

I say He did not, but for a different reason entirely.

Also - any particular reason you refer to God as "he" instead of "He"?  I've always tried to respectfully do so.  Just curious.  



Nicodemus said:


> The Native American people knew of a greater spirit, long before any Europeans set foot on this continent and made contact with them. How did they know?



Through use of peyote and marijuana?   I guess they came up with this stuff like other cultures, largely as a way to deal with the realization of their own eventual mortality.


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## StriperAddict (Oct 21, 2010)

*I'll try.......*

Well, I don't 'lurk' here, but I got this thread by way of searching new threads in the sp forum.

So I'll take a shot...
He became a man and dwelt among us. Then Christ (the God-Man) humbled Himself by taking the death penalty for our sin.  It was His nail scarred body that walked on terra-firma and met with over 500 believers and the diciples. That's pretty 'hands on' if you ask me.

But I'm sure your question really addresses the "here and now" side of thigs... so I'll also add the things He has told us in what way and form he would return, as in the next "hand's on" meeting:

*Revelation 1:7*
Behold, he cometh with *clouds*; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

And

*Acts 1:11*
Which (angels) also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this *same* *Jesus*, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Therefore, today, if he would come in any other physical way (get thee behind me, Sun-Yun-Moon!!) then that would make Him a liar of His own word, and would negate His promise to all of His creation.

This is not to say that the Lord cannot manifest (become known) to a searching heart.  But while "Doubting Thomas" could feel the wounds of the nails on Christ's feet and legs, we, on the other hand, are blessed by having had the written account of His earthly ministry "touch" us by His spirit.  It's this "touch" that is more transforming than the physical anyway.  (IMO )

Thanks for posting the question. A good one to kick around!


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## Nicodemus (Oct 21, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Every single Christian that describes how you have to have faith and just "know" that God exists, etc.  That's who.
> 
> I say He did not, but for a different reason entirely.
> 
> ...




Like I told somebody not long ago, I`m not a good Christian. There`s a lot of things I don`t do that I should. That is beside the point. We are both derailin` your thread.

Back to the subject. Peyote and marijuana were not available to all people. So, with no written history, no contact with Christian nations and learned scholars, how did they know? I would like to know the answer to this myself.


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## StriperAddict (Oct 21, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Also - any particular reason you refer to God as "he" instead of "He"? I've always tried to respectfully do so. Just curious.


 
I prefer to write this way ("He") as well, but sometimes I just mess up, no heavenly disrespect intended.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 21, 2010)

Nicodemus said:


> Like I told somebody not long ago, I`m not a good Christian. There`s a lot of things I don`t do that I should. That is beside the point. We are both derailin` your thread.
> 
> Back to the subject. Peyote and marijuana were not available to all people. So, with no written history, no contact with Christian nations and learned scholars, how did they know? I would like to know the answer to this myself.



Not tryin' to advocate, but He created peyote and marijuana.  Perhaps there was a purpose?


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## VisionCasting (Oct 21, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> ....or anybody else for that matter but I'd like to hear from believers mostly.
> 
> Why did God not bless human beings with the ability to sense that He exists?  I guess this could be viewed two different ways...why does He choose to remain insensible with our 5 senses OR why did He not bestow on us a 6th sense that would indeed make Him easily sensed?



Your use of the term 'lurking' carries some baggage.  I will trust that was unintended, and  assume you are interested in a candid, healthy dialog.  

Your question gets to the heart of the matter.  It has the capacity to be the most authentic question I've seen here.    

The issue is one of faith.

Originally faith was not necessary.  In the end, it will not be necessary.  "Why?", you ask...    Because the original design was that man and God walked in intimate relationship.  Faith was not necessary, similarly I don't need to have faith that you exist.  I can see you, hear you, smell you... et al.  The same was God's original design.  God and man in intimate relationship.

Are you surprised to know He only established one guideline?  And, like the beneficial guidelines you set for your children, it was intended to keep man from harm.

As a result of our disobedience (Adam's, mine, yours, etc... into perpetuity save only one exception) a Holy God could no longer be in our presence.  Like oil and water, sin and God do not mix.

The intimate relationship changed.  Not of His going, of ours.

Enter faith.

God hasn't changed in His love of His creation.  So He sets out to rectify the situation.  The solution, like you disciplining your child, hurts Him much more than it soes you.

He becomes flesh.  Still without sin.  Still Holy.  And He carried a simple message - "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life".  His passionate love for us has not wavered.  

The 'religious' folks of the day don't like His message as it upsets the otherwise 'sweet deal' they have established.  You know where this goes.  In an instant, He bears the sin of man, from Adam on, in order to restore the relationship.  Check paid.

And in this time between "in the beginning" and "the end" faith is the bridge.

But like Billy May's used to say, "but wait, there's more".

In perfect symmetry He ends the story where it begins.  Faith no longer necessary, man restored to intimate relationship with Him.

And all that is required of us is a simply, "Yes Father".

Seems like a fair deal to me.

Questions to ponder:
(1) Has science exhausted the list of human senses, at five?  Or is it instead possible we don't fully understand the extent of human perception?  
(2) Given indisputable, irrefutable proof would faith be necessary?  Would we lose our free will to decide?  Would we then be better described as puppets?  Can you really love something that lacks the sovereign ability to decide to love you back (or reject you)?
(3) If God designed us with intellect and free will (in His image) wouldn't it make sense that He rather we use it?


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## ronpasley (Oct 21, 2010)

crbrumbelow said:


> So if you can't see something, you don't believe it exists? We believe in many things that we can't see. Have you ever seen the wind? Have you seen history? We see the effects of the wind, but the wind is invisible. We have records of history, but it is by 'faith' we believe that certain historical events happened. Television waves are invisible, but an antenna and a receiver can detect their presence. Do you know that you have a receiver? Your 'receiver' (your spirit) is dead because of sin (see Ephesians 2:1). You need to be plugged into the life of God, and then you will come alive and be aware of the invisible spiritual realm. Do you think that you have kept the Ten Commandments?




Amen, great answer


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## gtparts (Oct 21, 2010)

Six, one answer to your question is 2000+ years old. Here are two versions that give testimony to the truth concerning man's ability to know that God does exist. Same passage in different words so that "even a caveman" like me can understand.

Romans 1:18-25 (HCSB)
  For God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. From the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse. For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man, birds, four-footed animals, and reptiles. 

    Therefore God delivered them over in the cravings of their hearts to sexual impurity, so that their bodies were degraded among themselves.They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served something created instead of the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Romans 1:18-25 (NLT)
 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.

 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.

Now, not everyone has turned to the traditional concept of an idol. Some deny God, yet lean heavily on the science that He created for an alternate explanation of His creation. It really is not that complicated. If a diver finds a gold coin, he would likely look for more. He knows that the coin did not occur naturally. The natural world operates under certain rules. We rely on science to describe those rules. We call them chemistry and physics, meteorology and biology, etc., etc. But why stop there? Why not ask, "Who made the rules?" If the very characteristics of chemicals can be expressed in a periodic table, it is because there is marvelous order in the construction and characteristics of the elements. The table conforms to the rules; the elements don't conform to the chart. The order found throughout the universe screams out the case for God.


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## Six million dollar ham (Oct 21, 2010)

Nicodemus said:


> So, with no written history, no contact with Christian nations and learned scholars, how did they know? I would like to know the answer to this myself.



Eh, I've given my answer.  At any rate, if what Christianity holds is true, and these people having not accepted Jesus as their lord and savior....it didn't work out for them.


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## CAL (Oct 21, 2010)

When one becomes a true believer through Faith in God's word and Jesus teachings,then the presence of the Holy Spirit is easily sensed!
I have sensed the presence before and I am just an old sinner!

I think the Native Americans worshiped many spirits in there day.I also think they were knowledgeable enough to know that all things had to come for some higher power or Great Spirit!


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## Nicodemus (Oct 21, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Eh, I've given my answer.  At any rate, if what Christianity holds is true, and these people having not accepted Jesus as their lord and savior....it didn't work out for them.





If your answer was peyote and marijuana, then your answer is wrong.


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## Diogenes (Oct 22, 2010)

Yeeks!  

Ham – my hat is off to you . . . And I thought I was subversive . . .

“You need to be plugged into the life of God, and then you will come alive and be aware of the invisible spiritual realm.”

“Originally faith was not necessary. In the end, it will not be necessary.”

“And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like.”

“Some deny God, yet lean heavily on the science that He created for an alternate explanation of His creation.”

“The table conforms to the rules; the elements don't conform to the chart.”

“When one becomes a true believer . . . then the presence of the Holy Spirit is easily sensed!”

“If your answer was peyote and marijuana, then your answer is wrong.”

You just can’t buy this sort of stuff . . .  Thank you.

I’m sorry . . . Each of the quoted statements, standing alone, invited a few paragraphs, and I started collecting them up – but, geez . . . once they were all collected together in a single place I found myself laughing too hard to be able to really type . . . 

Seems like this God never much bothered with His Creation or gave us the ability to perceive because . . . um . . . well . . . Because.

Works for me.  

Thank you for this thread.  Made my day.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 22, 2010)

Marijuana isn't native to the Americas-it was introduced here from Asia as a source of hemp fiber after European settlement. And peyote only grows in the southwest. Most of the Indian tribes didn't use mind-altering substances for religious rituals, they used fasting and prayer instead. And I'd dare say that the average Native American was much more sincerely and totally religious than the average European who was persecuting him for being a heathen.


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## davidstaples (Oct 22, 2010)

crbrumbelow said:


> So if you can't see something, you don't believe it exists? We believe in many things that we can't see. Have you ever seen the wind?
> 
> ...
> 
> Television waves are invisible, but an antenna and a receiver can detect their presence.



See, that's the thing.  Wind and RF (television waves) can both be quantified and measured.  Wind speed / velocity is measured by an anemometer and usually reported in miles per hour (in the United States anyways).  RF is measured using various different meters and is usually reported in decibels (dB) in my previous work with it.

So what measurement do you use to quantify your god?  Oh... right... it can't be measured because it's omnipotent... which is where faith comes in.  Right...


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## Jranger (Oct 22, 2010)

I'm of the opinion that anyone who has spent time in nature has the feeling that something greater is involved. Such beauty found here on Earth couldn't be an accident. I feel deeply every time I see a stunning sunset, or some spectacular scenery. I imagine Native Americans felt their hearts pulled in a similar manner as me when seeing the natural world without peyote or shrooms...


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 22, 2010)

Jranger said:


> I'm of the opinion that anyone who has spent time in nature has the feeling that something greater is involved. Such beauty found here on Earth couldn't be an accident. I feel deeply every time I see a stunning sunset, or some spectacular scenery. I imagine Native Americans felt their hearts pulled in a similar manner as me when seeing the natural world without peyote or shrooms...



And I've never had that same feeling inside a church. If I were looking for God, I would start on top of a mountain somewhere by myself-not in a building with a hundred other people.


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## Jranger (Oct 22, 2010)

NCHillbilly said:


> And I've never had that same feeling inside a church. If I were looking for God, I would start on top of a mountain somewhere by myself-not in a building with a hundred other people.



Agreed as far as truly being pulled inside. However, I do enjoy spending time with fellow Christians...Fellowship...
I also had a Roman Catholic priest tell me something similar when I explained my feelings to him. He told me that no where in the Bible did it say you had to go to church...


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## Gabassmaster (Oct 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> See, that's the thing.  Wind and RF (television waves) can both be quantified and measured.  Wind speed / velocity is measured by an anemometer and usually reported in miles per hour (in the United States anyways).  RF is measured using various different meters and is usually reported in decibels (dB) in my previous work with it.
> 
> So what measurement do you use to quantify your god?  Oh... right... it can't be measured because it's omnipotent... which is where faith comes in.  Right...




you know there is a little voice in your head that tells you there is one....you just ignore it


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## apoint (Oct 22, 2010)

The Indians had as many religions as white man. Which God did they pray to? What was there personal relationship to God. All situations are individual even for indians. Nothing new under the sun. First you have to hear the truth to except it. Which truth are you listening to? Even indians new something was out there called God, so they were seeking it . Are you seeking truth?


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## tomtlb66 (Oct 22, 2010)

I believe we have the sense He exists. We have to choose to let Him in our lives, to feel His presence. He gave us every opportunity to seek Him, worship Him and believe in Him.

Its a relationship, He does not kick the door in and force Himself in our lives. I use to think when He spoke to us it would be this loud type voice and all, but its not.

Trust me, I would not lie to you or anyone, God is real, He does love us, more than we can imagine. He is there, and He is waiting, all we have to do is ask and believe.


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## davidstaples (Oct 22, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> you know there is a little voice in your head that tells you there is one....you just ignore it



An auditory hallucination, or paracusia, is a form of hallucination that involves perceiving sounds without auditory stimulus. A common form involves hearing one or more talking voices. This may be associated with psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia or mania, and holds special significance in diagnosing these conditions.


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## Gabassmaster (Oct 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> An auditory hallucination, or paracusia, is a form of hallucination that involves perceiving sounds without auditory stimulus. A common form involves hearing one or more talking voices. This may be associated with psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia or mania, and holds special significance in diagnosing these conditions.



So you admit you have all those problems?


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## stringmusic (Oct 22, 2010)

Jranger said:


> I'm of the opinion that anyone who has spent time in nature has the feeling that something greater is involved. Such beauty found here on Earth couldn't be an accident. I feel deeply every time I see a stunning sunset, or some spectacular scenery. I imagine Native Americans felt their hearts pulled in a similar manner as me when seeing the natural world without peyote or shrooms...



no, no, no thats not the way it happened, you know... God didnt create nature and the earth and the sun, You know that it happened the same way that the dictionary was made..... an explosion in a printing press.


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## Gabassmaster (Oct 22, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> no, no, no thats not the way it happened, you know... God didnt create nature and the earth and the sun, You know that it happened the same way that the dictionary was made..... an explosion in a printing press.



might be why i cant pronounce 99% of the words


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## bhdawgs (Oct 22, 2010)

Let me ask you this... Do you love your parents?  your siblings?  children?  Can you see love?  Can you sense love?   Can you measure or quantify love?   

Faith is the same thing brother.....


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## davidstaples (Oct 22, 2010)

bhdawgs said:


> Let me ask you this... Do you love your parents?  your siblings?  children?  Can you see love?  Can you sense love?   Can you measure or quantify love?
> 
> Faith is the same thing brother.....



Love is a feeling that one feels.  If you love your god, great.  I'm happy that you've found something that gives you a peace of mind and consoles you.  However, faith is not the same thing.

When you were 3 or 4 years old, you probably had faith that Santa Claus existed, correct?  You saw pictures of him, he was in the mall, in the movies, on cartoons, etc.  Your parents told you he existed.  You had faith.  Do you still believe in Santa Claus?  If not, why not?  Did someone ever actually prove to you he didn't exist?  Or did you simply see the illogical reasoning presented to you in favor of him existing?


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## stringmusic (Oct 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Love is a feeling that one feels.


love is not a feeling, love is a choice
when you wake up every single day do you feel like loving your wife or kids?(think about a time when they REALLY made you mad) and dont respond yes, cause me,you and everybody else will know that you are lying. The answer is no, you choose to love them.





> When you were 3 or 4 years old, you probably had faith that Santa Claus existed, correct?  You saw pictures of him, he was in the mall, in the movies, on cartoons, etc.  Your parents told you he existed.  You had faith.  Do you still believe in Santa Claus?  If not, why not?  Did someone ever actually prove to you he didn't exist?  Or did you simply see the illogical reasoning presented to you in favor of him existing?



I chose to not continue my faith in santa clause because I found out that the story was not true, I have not made that same choice about God.


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## southGAlefty (Oct 22, 2010)

You just know, man. You just know. I have sensed Him before, everytime I'm angry, or sad, or happy. And for every single situation I encounter on a daily basis, I sense Him. Do you have a conscience (spelling)? I believe that our conscience is the most "tangible" form that God takes. I know my conscience in some way influences every single decision I make and those decisions are made in large part due to my belief in God. At the risk of sounding cheesy, I'll refer to the W.W.J.D. bracelets. Who, in the beginning, decided what is to be considered "right" and "wrong"? I know the answer. Do you?


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## davidstaples (Oct 22, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> love is not a feeling, love is a choice
> when you wake up every single day do you feel like loving your wife or kids?(think about a time when they REALLY made you mad) and dont respond yes, cause me,you and everybody else will know that you are lying. The answer is no, you choose to love them.
> 
> 
> ...



Well, I don't have kids yet, but when I wake up in the morning, I don't really make a choice as to whether I love my wife or not.  It's a *feeling*.  Perhaps you may choose your feelings... I don't... they just naturally occur.  Ever had a bad day?  Did you *choose* to have a bad day?  Of course not.

So how did you find out the story about Santa Claus was not true?  Was it just because someone told you that it wasn't true or did you go to the North Pole and find out for yourself?


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## davidstaples (Oct 22, 2010)

southGAlefty said:


> Who, in the beginning, decided what is to be considered "right" and "wrong"? I know the answer. Do you?



No, you *think* you know the answer.  Are you right or wrong?  I suppose you'll find out if you're correct when you die.  If you're incorrect and there is no god, then you've just spent a whole bunch of Sundays sitting in a church pew when you could have been out living it up with the rest of us.


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## Gabassmaster (Oct 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> No, you *think* you know the answer.  Are you right or wrong?  I suppose you'll find out if you're correct when you die.  If you're incorrect and there is no god, then you've just spent a whole bunch of Sundays sitting in a church pew when you could have been out living it up with the rest of us.



i would rather waste a couple sundays in church doing the right thing. than to live my life wrong and burn forEVER.


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## davidstaples (Oct 22, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> i would rather waste a couple sundays in church doing the right thing. than to live my life wrong and burn forEVER.



Define "wrong".  Your version and mine are two totally separate versions.  And I don't think I'll burn forever.  Maybe for a very short while.  But I'm not even sure I'm going to be cremated in the first place... I might just opt for burial instead.


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## stringmusic (Oct 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Well, I don't have kids yet, but when I wake up in the morning, I don't really make a choice as to whether I love my wife or not.  It's a *feeling*.  Perhaps you may choose your feelings... I don't... they just naturally occur. * Ever had a bad day?  Did you *choose* to have a bad day?  Of course not.*


a bad day is not a feeling or a choice.... Its a day.



> So how did you find out the story about Santa Claus was not true?  Was it just because someone told you that it wasn't true or did you go to the North Pole and find out for yourself?



I know people that have been to the north pole and they said he wasnt there.


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## Gabassmaster (Oct 22, 2010)

Yeah your "old body" will burn temp. but living your life right is when you live for the lord, it not punishment its actually alot better than it used to be! trust me all of us christians use to be in the same situation you are.


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## davidstaples (Oct 22, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> trust me all of us christians use to be in the same situation you are.



Do tell... just what situation is it that I'm in?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 22, 2010)

The quest to apply finite thinking to an infinite universe will never be achieved.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Well, I don't have kids yet



This explains a lot.  Until a man has a child it is rare that he even understand the true depths of love.


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## davidstaples (Oct 22, 2010)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> The quest to apply finite thinking to an infinite universe will never be achieved.



Agreed.  Nice quote!


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## ted_BSR (Oct 22, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> love is not a feeling, love is a choice
> when you wake up every single day do you feel like loving your wife or kids?(think about a time when they REALLY made you mad) and dont respond yes, cause me,you and everybody else will know that you are lying. The answer is no, you choose to love them.
> 
> 
> ...



I almost agree, love is an action verb, not a feeling, but that is probably a different thread.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 22, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> ....or anybody else for that matter but I'd like to hear from believers mostly.
> 
> Why did God not bless human beings with the ability to sense that He exists?  I guess this could be viewed two different ways...why does He choose to remain insensible with our 5 senses OR why did He not bestow on us a 6th sense that would indeed make Him easily sensed?



He did, you just refuse to use that sense.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 22, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> I almost agree, love is an action verb, not a feeling, but that is probably a different thread.


 
It is also a noun.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 22, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> Yeeks!
> 
> Ham – my hat is off to you . . . And I thought I was subversive . . .
> 
> ...



I don't really understand.  I think you are making fun of people for their opinions in order to feel more subversive.  Seems pretty closed minded.


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## Six million dollar ham (Oct 22, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> Until a man has a child it is rare that he even understand the true depths of love.



I don't see this happening, fwiw.


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## Six million dollar ham (Oct 22, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> Your use of the term 'lurking' carries some baggage.  I will trust that was unintended, and  assume you are interested in a candid, healthy dialog.


No it was intended.  Not sure why believers would be in the AAA forum much so that's why I invited you in.



VisionCasting said:


> Questions to ponder:
> (1) Has science exhausted the list of human senses, at five?  Or is it instead possible we don't fully understand the extent of human perception?
> (2) Given indisputable, irrefutable proof would faith be necessary?  Would we lose our free will to decide?  Would we then be better described as puppets?  Can you really love something that lacks the sovereign ability to decide to love you back (or reject you)?
> (3) If God designed us with intellect and free will (in His image) wouldn't it make sense that He rather we use it?



1) I feel confident the list of senses stops at five.
2) Not a bad point.  But it's also convenient, precisely the type of reasoning a con artist (Benny Hinn) would utilize.
3) Maybe not.  Intellect seems to suggest skepticism and a scientific approach.  Combine that with the free will not to believe and it seems self-defeating.


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## Six million dollar ham (Oct 22, 2010)

Nicodemus said:


> If your answer was peyote and marijuana, then your answer is wrong.



No that was just a fun hypothesis I'm throwing out.  The part about knowledge of impending mortality was my answer.


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## Six million dollar ham (Oct 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> An auditory hallucination, or paracusia, is a form of hallucination that involves perceiving sounds without auditory stimulus. A common form involves hearing one or more talking voices. This may be associated with psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia or mania, and holds special significance in diagnosing these conditions.



You should watch "Religulous" if you never have before.  One memorable segment was Maher's exploration of whether or not belief in a deity is actually a form of neurosis.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 22, 2010)

I'm not sure about only 5 senses. It might take extraordinary circumstances for more senses to show themselves. For instance, I've read instances of big games hunters and men in combat "feeling" things they couldn't explain. Really hard to quantify without evidence though.


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## Six million dollar ham (Oct 22, 2010)

CAL said:


> When one becomes a true believer through Faith in God's word and Jesus teachings,then the presence of the Holy Spirit is easily sensed!



Well it would be a lot easier for people to believe if said deity, any deity, would make himself actually detectable.


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## Six million dollar ham (Oct 22, 2010)

tomtlb66 said:


> I believe we have the sense He exists. We have to choose to let Him in our lives, to feel His presence. He gave us every opportunity to seek Him, worship Him and believe in Him.
> 
> Its a relationship, He does not kick the door in and force Himself in our lives. I use to think when He spoke to us it would be this loud type voice and all, but its not.
> 
> Trust me, I would not lie to you or anyone, God is real, He does love us, more than we can imagine. He is there, and He is waiting, all we have to do is ask and believe.



I'm sure you mean well but I've long since moved past this possibility.  I feel like the Waving Girl in Savannah.  Wave the pillow case all ya want, he ain't coming.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 22, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Well it would be a lot easier for people to believe if said deity, any deity, would make himself actually detectable.



Well ham, you just hit most people's problem with believing right on the head. Sorry, but it may be just a case of not "feeling" him until one day, you do. I guess that day never comes for some folks.


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## davidstaples (Oct 23, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> You should watch "Religulous" if you never have before.  One memorable segment was Maher's exploration of whether or not belief in a deity is actually a form of neurosis.



That was a good documentary.  I've got it in digital form somewhere around here.  Might just have to go watch it again.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 23, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> No it was intended.  Not sure why believers would be in the AAA forum much so that's why I invited you in.



I don't follow.  You "invited me in"?  To AAA?  I'm confused.

PS - the last A Apologetics.  That's why I am here.  WAIT - new thread idea.  Thanks for the inspiration.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 23, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> 1) I feel confident the list of senses stops at five.
> .



WOW!  That is a huge statement.  So science fully understands the human ability to perceive and there is utterly nothing left to add.  Yet we've just scratched the proverbial surface when it comes to understanding such things as the cognitive brain, the interrelatedness of systems and the origins of the universe.  That's convenient.


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## southGAlefty (Oct 24, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> No, you *think* you know the answer.  Are you right or wrong?  I suppose you'll find out if you're correct when you die.  If you're incorrect and there is no god, then you've just spent a whole bunch of Sundays sitting in a church pew when you could have been out living it up with the rest of us.



Well let me tell you what I do *KNOW*...I *KNOW* I don't want to burn with Satan for eternity when I die. I do *KNOW* that I feel a calming presence sometimes in stressful situations that I believe to be God and I do believe that He died on the cross to bear the burden of our sins so that we may all join Him in Heaven one day. 

Do you want to be sentenced to an eternity of pain and suffering IF what we crazy believers say and believe in does happen to be true? Wouldn't you rather be safe than sorry? 

I'm not a perfect Christian, don't claim to be. I didn't go to church this morning, and can't honestly say that I do go on a regular basis. That doesn't mean I don't believe what the Bible says and worship in my own ways though. The Bible says that we should be in a "constant state of worship," that is a mindset. I can honestly say that I'm a much happier person since I came into Christ. I can't explain it, but I know what I feel. 

What you choose to believe is your choice man, I just hope that one day you'll be moved in a way that allows you to experience God.


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## dexrusjak (Oct 24, 2010)

southGAlefty said:


> Well let me tell you what I do *KNOW*...I *KNOW* I don't want to burn with Satan for eternity when I die. I do *KNOW* that I feel a calming presence sometimes in stressful situations that I believe to be God and I do believe that He died on the cross to bear the burden of our sins so that we may all join Him in Heaven one day.
> 
> Do you want to be sentenced to an eternity of pain and suffering IF what we crazy believers say and believe in does happen to be true? Wouldn't you rather be safe than sorry?



How do you know what those crazy Muslims say isn't true?  You don't.  I guess you'd better convert to Islam.  Wouldn't you rather be safe than sorry?


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## ThunderRoad (Oct 24, 2010)

Long Story, but please read what I have to say. 

I am in no way a perfect christian or anything close. I smoke too many cigarettes, drink way too much beer, and am probably the biggest hypocrite in the world. 

However, certain things in life are just too hard to explain. Timing of certain events, circumstances, whatever. When I was in high school I had a very religous girlfriend. I was not. I am not saying I didnt believe that there was a God, but I just didn't think about it at all. I was too worried about Friday night and what not. 

Anyways, one day at work I get a call from my girlfriend. Out of the blue, she says we have to break up. I am shocked and ask why? She says because I do not believe. I say, "In what? God?" She says, "God speaks to me everyday. Does he speak to you?" I say that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. End of call from ex-girlfriend! 

After that call, I am just steaming mad, and cannot believe that this girl tells me that because God and I do not have regular conversations, we have to break up. So I say to myself, "God, if you are there, let's talk". Of course, I have no doubt in my mind that nothing will happen. I say it out of spite! 

A mid-aged lady walks up to the counter to buy something...I check her out, and she goes on her way. Then, she comes back inside...

Without saying ONE word, she hands me a pamphlet of some sort. What was it you ask? ... BIBLE QUOTES!!!!!

I could not believe my eyes. I just looked at it and kind of laughed. It was a very surreal moment and I cannot explain it. But how can anyone tell me that this is pure coincedence? In my mind, there is no way that this is just by chance.

Did I start going to church on a regular basis? No. 
Do I believe there is a God even more after that happened? Absolutely. 

The saying that God works in mysterious ways is true. Thanks for reading!

-Brian


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 24, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> ....or anybody else for that matter but I'd like to hear from believers mostly.
> 
> Why did God not bless human beings with the ability to sense that He exists?  I guess this could be viewed two different ways...why does He choose to remain insensible with our 5 senses OR why did He not bestow on us a 6th sense that would indeed make Him easily sensed?


I learn lots about my own beliefs by pondering the questions that you guys ask.  But I fail to come up with any convincing, conclusive answers.


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## Six million dollar ham (Oct 24, 2010)

Interesting.  So because of that you believe in Jesus instead of Buddha?


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 24, 2010)

I was thinking, wondering about percents. I would guess that 70% of people are some kind of religious. And 30 % athiest. That being said, although incorrect I'm sure, would mean that only 30% would say that he has not allowed them to sense him. Opinions????


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 24, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Interesting.  So because of that you believe in Jesus instead of Buddha?


I guess I've never confronted the fact that my initial beliefs were based on what the bible says. I see that this would lead to the question that "how do you know it's true"?


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## Six million dollar ham (Oct 24, 2010)

1gr8bldr said:


> I guess I've never confronted the fact that my initial beliefs were based on what the bible says. I see that this would lead to the question that "how do you know it's true"?



Your answer would be ....


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## southGAlefty (Oct 24, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> How do you know what those crazy Muslims say isn't true?  You don't.  I guess you'd better convert to Islam.  Wouldn't you rather be safe than sorry?



As I said, I know what I feel and sense on occasion and I know what I believe in. I associate the 2, you do what you want. 

I just don't see how anyone couldn't believe in a higher power. Walk outside, look at the trees, the bugs, the animals. Look at the complexity of all of those beings, and ask yourself how did they come to be? There's a mastermind behind it somewhere.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 24, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Your answer would be ....


No one knows regardless of what they might say. It would be more accurate to say that we have faith that it is true. I'll give this some thought to see if I can come up with a more reasonable answer.I have enjoyed the interesting conversation.


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## davidstaples (Oct 25, 2010)

southGAlefty said:


> Do you want to be sentenced to an eternity of pain and suffering IF what we crazy believers say and believe in does happen to be true? Wouldn't you rather be safe than sorry?



So I should believe what you say is true out of fear of the alternative?  Sorry, but religion based on fear isn't kosher to me.  That's like saying one should also believe in other gods as well... you know... just in case.  Gotta cover all your bases.  Perhaps you should also believe in Santa Claus... just in case.  You know... wouldn't want to wake up Christmas morning and not have any presents under the tree.


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## ambush80 (Oct 25, 2010)

southGAlefty said:


> As I said, I know what I feel and sense on occasion and I know what I believe in. I associate the 2, you do what you want.
> 
> I just don't see how anyone couldn't believe in a higher power. Walk outside, look at the trees, the bugs, the animals. Look at the complexity of all of those beings, and ask yourself how did they come to be? There's a mastermind behind it somewhere.



Ever seen haints?


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 25, 2010)

1gr8bldr said:


> No one knows regardless of what they might say. It would be more accurate to say that we have faith that it is true. I'll give this some thought to see if I can come up with a more reasonable answer.I have enjoyed the interesting conversation.


Why do I believe the bible to be true? I'm still thinking for an answer that might be reasonable to an unbeliever.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 25, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> You should watch "Religulous" if you never have before.  One memorable segment was Maher's exploration of whether or not belief in a deity is actually a form of neurosis.



And you think I am silly because I belive in God.  You are suggesting I invest "valuable human consideration" into the hands of a not so funny political comedian.  Crikey, you need to step back and check out the mirror Ham.

Who is trapped in fantasy land?


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## ted_BSR (Oct 25, 2010)

1gr8bldr said:


> I was thinking, wondering about percents. I would guess that 70% of people are some kind of religious. And 30 % athiest. That being said, although incorrect I'm sure, would mean that only 30% would say that he has not allowed them to sense him. Opinions????



More like 80% are some kind of religious, 15% are athiest or agnostic, and the rest believe in Bill Maher!


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## Six million dollar ham (Oct 25, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> And you think I am silly because I belive in God.



Challenge.  Show me where I said this.  



ted_BSR said:


> You are suggesting I invest "valuable human consideration" into the hands of a not so funny political comedian.  Crikey, you need to step back and check out the mirror Ham.



I didn't suggest you watch it.  This was a response of mine to someone else (davidstaples).  Why are you so bitter?   I find it baffling, your disdain over something I mentioned to someone else as a suggestion.

That said, hey, maybe you should watch "Religulous" some time.  Shouldn't be any harm in it since Jesus is the truth and all, right?   



ted_BSR said:


> Who is trapped in fantasy land?



Odd.  You haven't seen the documentary, that is abundantly clear.  It's worth noting that it's not a comedy.  Good day.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 26, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> You should watch "Religulous" if you never have before.  One memorable segment was Maher's exploration of whether or not belief in a deity is actually a form of neurosis.



Sorry you suggested "neurosis", not silly.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 26, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Challenge.  Show me where I said this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I didn't even get past the splash screen where it touts itself as the #1 Sacreligous COMEDY in America.  Maybe you missed the point of this movie.


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## Six million dollar ham (Oct 26, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> I didn't even get past the splash screen where it touts itself as the #1 Sacreligous COMEDY in America.  Maybe you missed the point of this movie.



Ah well maybe it is a comedy.  I don't know.  But hey, check it out either way.


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## Achilles Return (Oct 26, 2010)

VisionCasting said:


> WOW!  That is a huge statement.  So science fully understands the human ability to perceive and there is utterly nothing left to add.  Yet we've just scratched the proverbial surface when it comes to understanding such things as the cognitive brain, the interrelatedness of systems and the origins of the universe.  That's convenient.



I think you just created an epic strawman there. Unless you can think of a couple more senses that you have some special insight towards (and the evidence for their existence), feeling confident that we have only 5 would be the rational thing to do. His statement has nothing to do with "scratching the surface when it comes to...the cognitive brain", "interrelatedness of systems" and certainly not the origins of the universe. 

I also find it highly amusing that you would chide him for making a definite statement on something he can define empirically, yet you have no problem making a definite statement ("I know god exists") for something you can't. Cute.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 27, 2010)

1gr8bldr said:


> Why do I believe the bible to be true? I'm still thinking for an answer that might be reasonable to an unbeliever.


Wow, you really stumped me. From your viewpoint, how do I know my bible is right and say, the budda writings are wrong. Or why Jesus instead of mohomd dang, how do you spell that? I fully admit that most blindly follow whatever they were taught by their parents.  After having given this much thought, I would have to say that I have an "inputted faith". Why do I like curves on women and not squares. I don't know, God made me that way. Why do I like hunting instead of crosstich, I guess God made me that way to. Why do I believe the bible to be true, I guess God made me think so. I know that sounds stupid but that's a better answer than the typical response of saying "I believe it cause God wrote it". I elected not to go into the many things spoken of such as; the foretelling in scriptures that no one would agree on anything, man against his children, etc.


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## ambush80 (Oct 27, 2010)

1gr8bldr said:


> Wow, you really stumped me. From your viewpoint, how do I know my bible is right and say, the budda writings are wrong. Or why Jesus instead of mohomd dang, how do you spell that? I fully admit that most blindly follow whatever they were taught by their parents.  After having given this much thought, I would have to say that I have an "inputted faith". Why do I like curves on women and not squares. I don't know, God made me that way. Why do I like hunting instead of crosstich, I guess God made me that way to. Why do I believe the bible to be true, I guess God made me think so. I know that sounds stupid but that's a better answer than the typical response of saying "I believe it cause God wrote it". I elected not to go into the many things spoken of such as; the foretelling in scriptures that no one would agree on anything, man against his children, etc.



Do you think that if you came from a long line of cross stitchers and it was the family business that you might have developed an interest in it?  I applaud you for your honesty and your ability to examine your faith objectively.  If there is a God and he gave you that brain, I assume that he wants you to use it.  Keep up the search.


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## Mackey (Oct 27, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Every single Christian that describes how you have to have faith and just "know" that God exists, etc.  That's who.
> 
> I say He did not, but for a different reason entirely.
> 
> ...



Ham,
If you do not believe in God, then surely you must not believe in Heaven or Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----. Appearantly you also lack the afore mentioned "Faith", all I can say is you had better be completely right and me completely wrong. You see that the Bible says that "it is appointed unto man once to DIE", and after that "the Judgement". I really don't care weather or not you believe me, the fact is I speak the truth. God's holy word says that if you hear the truth (and now you have) and you choose to ignore it you will not enter the kingdom of Heaven, but be cast into the "Lake of Fire". Not my words, but his.


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## ambush80 (Oct 27, 2010)

mackey said:


> ham,
> if you do not believe in god, then surely you must not believe in heaven or edited to remove profanity ----edited to remove profanity ----edited to remove profanity ----edited to remove profanity ----. Appearantly you also lack the afore mentioned "faith", all i can say is you had better be completely right and me completely wrong. You see that the bible says that "it is appointed unto man once to die", and after that "the judgement". I really don't care weather or not you believe me, the fact is i speak the truth. God's holy word says that if you hear the truth (and now you have) and you choose to ignore it you will not enter the kingdom of heaven, but be cast into the "lake of fire". Not my words, but his.



this is not apologetics!!!!


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## hortonr (Oct 27, 2010)

I belive you do have some sense He exist. Why else would you bother to ask?


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## Achilles Return (Oct 27, 2010)

1gr8bldr said:


> Wow, you really stumped me. From your viewpoint, how do I know my bible is right and say, the budda writings are wrong. Or why Jesus instead of mohomd dang, how do you spell that? I fully admit that most blindly follow whatever they were taught by their parents.  After having given this much thought, I would have to say that I have an "inputted faith". Why do I like curves on women and not squares. I don't know, God made me that way. Why do I like hunting instead of crosstich, I guess God made me that way to. Why do I believe the bible to be true, I guess God made me think so. I know that sounds stupid but that's a better answer than the typical response of saying "I believe it cause God wrote it". I elected not to go into the many things spoken of such as; the foretelling in scriptures that no one would agree on anything, man against his children, etc.



Can you understand then, why some of us might be skeptical of its authority?


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 27, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> Can you understand then, why some of us might be skeptical of its authority?


Oh yea, I can completly understand. Talking donkey, Sampson pushing down the pillars and more get killed than 911. Yea, I understand your hesitation. The bible has some hard to believe stuff and some extreme stuff also. But apart from that, I still believe that God exist.


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## animalguy (Oct 28, 2010)

I believe that the senses (sensual) are far from "spiritual".  My senses long to be satisfied and are wrought with sin. My ears receive flattery or seductive words. My eyes see seductive things. My taste drives my gluttony. My skin longs for the touch of flesh. My nose can wind perfume from a distance. MY senses are too busy to experience God. He is not in the business of competing with sin. God speaks to me through His "still, small voice". The Bible "coincidentally" reveals something to me, or another believer confronts me about a need of mine.  

 I know a man who was born without the sense of smell. Never smelled a thing in his life. He said that very briefly during a prayer meeting with others, he smelled something.  He assumes that it was God's presence. Maybe b/c his sense of smell was so "unoccupied", God used it to reveal Himself.  Have our senses ever been that unoccupied? 

 I know a missionary that went to an island in the South Pacific as the first white christian missionary. When asking them about their beliefs, they said " We know that there is only one God, who created all that we see. His hand makes the sun to rise each day and holds all of the world together. We just don't know how to communicate with Him."  They discovered that Jesus is that "way" of communication.


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## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2010)

animalguy said:


> I believe that the senses (sensual) are far from "spiritual".  My senses long to be satisfied and are wrought with sin. My ears receive flattery or seductive words. My eyes see seductive things. My taste drives my gluttony. My skin longs for the touch of flesh. My nose can wind perfume from a distance. MY senses are too busy to experience God. He is not in the business of competing with sin. God speaks to me through His "still, small voice". The Bible "coincidentally" reveals something to me, or another believer confronts me about a need of mine.
> 
> I know a man who was born without the sense of smell. Never smelled a thing in his life. He said that very briefly during a prayer meeting with others, he smelled something.  He assumes that it was God's presence. Maybe b/c his sense of smell was so "unoccupied", God used it to reveal Himself.  Have our senses ever been that unoccupied?
> 
> I know a missionary that went to an island in the South Pacific as the first white christian missionary. When asking them about their beliefs, they said " We know that there is only one God, who created all that we see. His hand makes the sun to rise each day and holds all of the world together. We just don't know how to communicate with Him."  They discovered that Jesus is that "way" of communication.



What did God smell like?


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## ted_BSR (Oct 28, 2010)

Achilles Return said:


> Can you understand then, why some of us might be skeptical of its authority?



It is not meant to be easy to believe.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 28, 2010)

animalguy said:


> I believe that the senses (sensual) are far from "spiritual".  My senses long to be satisfied and are wrought with sin. My ears receive flattery or seductive words. My eyes see seductive things. My taste drives my gluttony. My skin longs for the touch of flesh. My nose can wind perfume from a distance. MY senses are too busy to experience God. He is not in the business of competing with sin. God speaks to me through His "still, small voice". The Bible "coincidentally" reveals something to me, or another believer confronts me about a need of mine.
> 
> I know a man who was born without the sense of smell. Never smelled a thing in his life. He said that very briefly during a prayer meeting with others, he smelled something.  He assumes that it was God's presence. Maybe b/c his sense of smell was so "unoccupied", God used it to reveal Himself.  Have our senses ever been that unoccupied?
> 
> I know a missionary that went to an island in the South Pacific as the first white christian missionary. When asking them about their beliefs, they said " We know that there is only one God, who created all that we see. His hand makes the sun to rise each day and holds all of the world together. We just don't know how to communicate with Him."  They discovered that Jesus is that "way" of communication.



The Lord works in mysterious ways.


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## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> It is not meant to be easy to believe.



Why not?


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## animalguy (Oct 28, 2010)

Ambush, he didn't have a reference point. He has NEVER smelled anything before.  The Bible refers to "the prayers of saints" having an aroma in Heaven.


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## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2010)

animalguy said:


> Ambush, he didn't have a reference point. He has NEVER smelled anything before.  The Bible refers to "the prayers of saints" having an aroma in Heaven.




Was it pleasant?  I'm sure even if he had never smelled anything before and momentarily gained the ability to smell,  if he smelled rotting flesh, he would have a gag reflex.  Conversely, if the first thing he smelled was baking cookies, I imagine that he would find the experience pleasurable.  Was there any itching in the throat or watering of the eyes associated with his experience?


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## Achilles Return (Oct 28, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> It is not meant to be easy to believe.



Then it was "meant" for some humans to go to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----. This is sadistic.


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## Achilles Return (Oct 28, 2010)

1gr8bldr said:


> Oh yea, I can completly understand. Talking donkey, Sampson pushing down the pillars and more get killed than 911. Yea, I understand your hesitation. The bible has some hard to believe stuff and some extreme stuff also. But apart from that, I still believe that God exist.



And that's fine. I was a deist for quite a while before I called myself an atheist. My issue is when subjective personal beliefs are used to justify changing laws and stuff for objective reality.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 28, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Why not?



I don't have the answer to that, but I know the Bible says believers will be ridiculed and persecuted for their belief.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 28, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> I don't have the answer to that, but I know the Bible says believers will be ridiculed and persecuted for their belief.


Interesting thing is that it will come from "religion" and no indication of atheism.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 29, 2010)

1gr8bldr said:


> Interesting thing is that it will come from "religion" and no indication of atheism.



I think I understand your point, and it is interesting, that we (believers) are promised that we will be persecuted, and not the athiests.

I have strong opinions, but I hope I do not ridicule or persecute others, that is not my intent.


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