# Anyone here watch Joel Osteen?



## Joe Moran (Feb 20, 2005)

A good friend of mine turned me on to him.

I don't miss a Sunday morning before church without him now.


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## CAL (Feb 20, 2005)

I watch him when I can.I think he is really good!


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## blindhog (Feb 20, 2005)

From what i have watched, here is some good food for thought:


February 04, 2005
Joel Osteen and "Joel-Likeness"
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When I was in the eleventh grade I decided to study Latin. I don't remember what it was that compelled me to study the language, but I suspect it had something to do with the small class size. Where most classes in my high school had twenty five or thirty students, Latin usually had only seven or eight. And so it was that for a year I studied Latin. The teacher, Dr. Helder, quickly became my favorite teacher and grade eleven Latin stands out as my favorite class in all my years of high school. Dr. Helder was faced with the daunting task of making a group of teenagers enjoy Latin, a dead language. Yet he succeeded in making us not only learn the language but also in making us enjoy learning it. How did he do that? He proved to us that Latin is not dead, but in fact, is still in common use. One ongoing task throughout the year was to collect Latin words and phrases we found in books, newspapers and magazines. We were to collect all these examples and at the end of the year, part of our grade was based on how many of these we found. The more of the language we learned, the more Latin we found. As our eyes were opened to the language, suddenly we saw it all around us - in print, in law, in theology, in advertising, and just about everywhere else.

Six months ago I had never heard of Joel Osteen. I first came across his name when reading about American mega-churches, and having learned a little bit about him, I suddenly found myself seeing him everywhere. If I turn on my television on Sunday morning, I am sure to see his smiling face. When I browse the shelves at Christian bookstores, I see his book, and lately he has begun to make appearances in the media. In this case I do not know whether his increased visibility, like my experience in Latin class, is due to my awareness of him, or if it is due to his rising popularity. I suspect both are true. Either way, it seems that Joel Osteen is quickly becoming one of the big names in the Evangelical church. And how could it be any other way? Evangelicalism is obsessed with numbers and it just so happens that Osteen preaches at the most mega of the mega-churches. 

Lakewood Church was founded in the late 1950's by Joel's father, John. John Osteen was originally Baptist, but just prior to founding Lakewood, was apparently baptized in the Holy Spirit and became Charismatic. His ministry, in which he preached thousands of sermons and wrote over forty books, ended in 1999 with his sudden death. At the time, nearly 10,000 people packed his church every Sunday. When his father died, Joel was unwillingly thrust into the pulpit. Within a few years, attendance has nearly tripled and the church has been forced to buy the 18,000 seat Compaq Center, former home of the Houston Rockets, to house the congregation. Osteen's ministry has already eclipsed his father's in scope and has gone worldwide, as television stations across the globe have begun to air his messages. Today over 100,000,000 households in 100 countries have access to his messages. Joel recently wrote his first book, entitled Your Best Life Now, which promptly became a New York Times best-seller. It is the stuff dreams are made of.

Not surprisingly, Joel Osteen is becoming the poster boy of the mega-churches. He is known to some as "the smiling pastor" and with his good looks, charming personality and beautiful wife, he seems ready to take Evangelicalism by storm. Because of this, it is expedient for believers to take a long, hard look at Osteen and determine if this is a man we want to represent Christians to the world. The next time terrorists strike, do we want to have Osteen speaking to the press on our behalf? The next time tragedy strikes, do we want to see Osteen's face on Larry King Live and in the newspapers? Is this a man we want to stand as our representative?

Todd Wilken, of the radio program Issues, Etc, often evaluates the sermons of popular preachers on his broadcast, and has done this for several of Osteen's messages. He evalutes the sermons on the following three criteria:

How often is Jesus mentioned? For his purposes, a simple tally will suffice. 
Is Jesus the subject of the verbs? Is Jesus the one who acts, or are you? 
What are the verbs? What has Jesus done and what is He doing?
I find this a fair, though basic, framework to evaluate a sermon. Here is what one would expect to hear from a typical sermon in Lakewood Church.

Osteen's preaching follows a distinct formula. He always begins with a joke, often a "Charismatic, Baptist and Catholic arrive in heaven..." type of joke. He then tells the congregation how great they sound and has them recite the Congregational Confession which goes as follows, "This is my Bible. I am what it says I am, I have what it says I have, I can do what it says I can do. Today I'll be taught the Word of God. I boldly confess my mind is alert, my heart is receptive, I'll never be the same, in Jesus name." He affirms his love and respect for the congregation once more, and then begins the message.

An Osteen sermon is what a fellow blogger calls skyscraper preaching as it is constructed from placing one story on top of another. Each of his sermons is divided into two distinct parts. The first lasts about eight to ten minutes and describes a problem. The predominant words and phrases in this section are "a lot of people," "some people," and "many of you." For example, if he is preaching about joy, this part of the message will focus on how many people, including those in attendance, do not have enough joy in their lives. If he is preaching about integrity, he will tell about people he knows who have lacked integrity. After about ten minutes of this, he moves to the second part of his sermon where the focus changes to himself. Now the predominant words and phrases become "I used to," "Victoria and I," and "When I..." I call this the "be like Joel" portion of the sermon, for he shows how he has overcome the problems he described in the first section. In short, his sermons follow the formula of "you're the problem, I'm the solution." He nags the congregation for ten minutes and then holds himself up as the example of better Christian living.

He often closes his television broadcasts with a brief prayer, after which he assures the viewers that if they prayed this prayer they are born again.

If we look once more at Wilken's framework, we will find that Osteen does very poorly. He seldom mentions Jesus, and only mentions the Bible in passing. Osteen preaches a message that is not distinctly Christian, and in truth is not much different from what you might hear coming from Anthony Robbins or any other motivational, feel-good speaker. He deliberately avoids preaching the full Gospel message. The following quote is from a story in Fox News. "I think for years there's been a lot of hellfire and ****ation. You go to church to figure out what you're doing wrong and you leave feeling bad like you're not going to make it...We believe in focusing on the goodness of God....I think it's a place of life and victory. They want to be encouraged and uplifted." Michael Horton correctly summarizes Osteen's preaching, saying that it "sort of treats the Bible as a collection of fortune cookies. If you claim the right verses, then you can have health, wealth and happiness."

Here are two testimonies of other bloggers who have invested time into researching Osteen. Don Elbourne watched a webcast and concluded that there was "No Christ, no cross, no mention of man's moral bankruptcy, just the feel-good positive message of assurance that God always rewards human effort and virtue." Michael Spencer, who says he has listened to over twenty five hours of Osteen says "Osteen's messages are about "God's Favor" on marriage, finances and career. Sin is never mentioned. In well over 25 hours of preaching that I listened to this year, Jesus was almost never mentioned, and when he was mentioned, it was in a perfunctory prayer in the last minute. Sin, the Cross, the atonement? Not there."

Jesus is rarely mentioned. If He is mentioned, it is as our helper in becoming better people.

My pastor likes to relate a story of when he was considering leaving a church he pastored in Alberta to begin a new church in the Toronto area. One of the members of his church was a wildly successful businessman who was a marketing genius. My pastor asked this man how he would appeal to the upper class residents of Toronto's suburban sprawl. The man's answer was simple: appeal to their guilt. So many of them live in constant guilt that they do not have more time for their wives and children. Play on their guilt and you will have an open door to reach out to them. And that seems to be exactly what Osteen does. He finds the areas in which every person needs to grow. We all need to live with more joy! We all need to live lives of greater integrity! But instead of providing a solution grounded in Scripture, Osteen provides a solution grounded in self. He nags his congregation, daring them, begging them, to try harder. As for God, He is not here to save us from our sin and to meet our greatest need. Instead, God is here to help us try harder as we strive to be just a little bit more like Joel. Osteen's message is one of Joel-likeness, not Christ-likeness.

A ****ing indictment of Evangelicalism comes from Wilken, who, with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek, says that Osteen has everything going for him. He has "good hair, good teeth, nice fingernails..." Wilken's point is that many Evangelicals are hopelessly shallow, deliberately opting for style over substance. In an interview with MSNBC, Osteen admits as much. When asked about his success he says, "Maybe it's the fact that I'm younger, I'm not beating people over the head, and that I'm saying that there are good things in store - you can make it in life. Most of the stuff that I minister [is] not real complicated deep things." The interviewer reacts with surprise saying "You admit that it's not complicated and not deep." And Osteen reaffirms, "No, I admit that. It's [the] simple things." He may as well have said "it's the shallow things."

The problem with this is that life is complex. And even more importantly, Christianity is complex. Even the apostle Peter had to admit about Paul's writings that "there are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." (2 Peter 3:16) A message that is always simple and never complicated, will only appeal to spiritually shallow people - to people who have a thin veneer of faith coating their lives, but have little desire to allow the message to go deeper and to penetrate every area of their lives. And what is most tragic, is that what is most simple in Scripture, the message of sin, death, forgiveness and life, is the very message Osteen forsakes because that is the message his congregation has no interest in hearing. He preaches a shallow message that perfectly suits shallow Evangelical Christianity. Joel Osteen is the posterboy for shallow, feel-good, meaningless, powerless, Gospel-free Christianity.


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## Joe Moran (Feb 20, 2005)

*blindhog*

Whew! That was a mouthful!

You made some good points, but I still like the man.
I like to watch him on Sunday mornings, before church. The more I think about it, I guess I'm only benefitting from him on a motivational level. His message is about doing unto others, as well as how to receive God's favor.
He doesn't ask for $$, his message is to get yourself in a good Bible based church.

I can't fault the man for putting Christianity into the spotlight. Maybe he does have some Tony Robbins type qualities about him, but is that a bad thing?


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## blindhog (Feb 20, 2005)

Can you say worldly, watered down, itching ears, man pleaser, word faith, popular with the world (book a best seller).......

I personally heard him say last week "you must follow your heart"

Jeremiah 17:9..."The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

So....a pastor who gives unscriptural advice.  How good is that?

We must be taught to follow the written Word.  Not men.


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## HuntinTom (Feb 20, 2005)

My wife watches him on Sunday mornings before she comes to church - (My kids joke with her and tell her she's two-timing me   ) -- I think he has some great things to say, and, there are theological points I'd certainly differ in with him - I think he's very sincere in what he says, but, being a preacher myself, I also realize everything said will never meet every person's criteria or Biblical critique either...


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## blindhog (Feb 20, 2005)

My wife likes him too. 
And I think he comes across sincere, and has that charisma factor going.

But then there is the matter of flatly giving unbiblical advice up there on the podium, not just passing a critque, when God tells us that teachers are VERY responsible for this kind of thing.

One can be "sincerely wrong" also.......


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## HuntinTom (Feb 20, 2005)

> One can be "sincerely wrong" also.......


  I'll certainly say amen to that - And not just preachers...


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## Woody's Janitor (Feb 20, 2005)

I just can't watch him. I can't quite explain except I have no confidence in his sincerity.


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## blindhog (Feb 20, 2005)

Woody's Janitor said:
			
		

> I just can't watch him. I can't quite explain except I have no confidence in his sincerity.



Amen brother.....I think you call that discernment.


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## blindhog (Feb 20, 2005)

HuntinTom said:
			
		

> I'll certainly say amen to that - And not just preachers...



I'll amen your amen


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## Joe Moran (Feb 20, 2005)

Woody's Janitor said:
			
		

> I just can't watch him. I can't quite explain except I have no confidence in his sincerity.



I was taken back a little at first by the Texas drawl, but I just like his message. To each his own.

The message that I get from him, is that no matter what problems come your way, if you give it to God, you'll overcome. Sounds good to me.


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## Zack attack (Feb 20, 2005)

*A christian motivational speaker at most.*

Joel Osteen should spend more time reading his Bible and less time preaching. I don't think the genaral theme of the Bible is health, wealth, and prosperity. I think it is more about Gods grace, mercy, and the gospel of Jesus Christ.


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## blindhog (Feb 21, 2005)

And the repentance of the believer, humbleness, and the total sufficiency of Jesus.

I'm not so sure his label shouldn't be "new age motivational" speaker.


itching ears..........


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## Zack attack (Feb 21, 2005)

*faith and repentence.*

Blind hog,
I woke up in the middle of the night and rembered that I did not mention faith and repentece. That is what saves you!!!!!
Thanks for catching my mistake. God bless. ZTT


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 21, 2005)

I like Joel.   Him and his late father.   I don't listen to him religiously (no pun intended) but I can't say that I've ever heard him say something that I thought was unscriptural.   

Bandy


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## Joe Moran (Feb 21, 2005)

Bandy,

That's what I'm saying!

I don't use his sermons in place of church, but I do like the message he brings.
Maybe he is just a motivational speaker, but so what? He motivates people to try to be better Christians. What's wrong with that?

Y'all quit beating the old boy up!


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## blindhog (Feb 21, 2005)

Joe Moran said:
			
		

> Bandy,
> 
> That's what I'm saying!
> 
> ...



I don't look at it as beating up on him, but rather pointing to truth for fellow believers.  So they will not be deceived.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 22, 2005)

Ok.....I'll bite.         How is Joel deceiving people?

Bandy


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## Hambone (Feb 22, 2005)

Well, I like Joel too.  Like some others, I consider his message to be an addendum to my normal Sunday worship.

While I understand many of the "concerns" stated, I think Joel does much more good than bad.  I suspect that due to his "motivational" messages that he's actually brought many to attend churches that would otherwise not.   That, is a good thing.


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## blindhog (Feb 22, 2005)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> Ok.....I'll bite.         How is Joel deceiving people?
> 
> Bandy




By not preaching the whole council of the Lord.

Also, Olsteen is Word Faith oriented big time.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 22, 2005)

So, we shouldn't believe God for anything until after we die?   LOL  

When you pray, believe that you receive...then you shall have.    Who said this?  


Having no evidence that we are saved....how do we know that we will live forever after we die?   

I'm not a 'name it, claim it' guy...but I believe God for everything that I need in this life....healing, finances...etc.     It is not God's will for a disease to take me out.   When I get sick, I know that God's best for me is to be healed.   It is never His will for me to stay sick and die.   We can know God's will (Eph 5:17) and it is up to us to believe Him for what Christ purchased...be it spiritual or physical salvation...    Jesus healed sickness and forgave sin as was prophesied in Isaiah.     Did He only bear our sickness for a few short years but continues to forgive sins? (which we have no evidence of yet)   He has come through for me time and again....       

Bandy


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## blindhog (Feb 23, 2005)

So you are saying it's not God's will that we die?

Bandy...you really don't think that do you?

Our spirits are healed, cleansed, and posess eternal life once re-born.

It is all according to His will.


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## MudDucker (Feb 23, 2005)

I enjoy an occassional Joel O'Stein sermon.  Listening to him is not so much for Bible Study.  His theme is biblical for Jesus said (paraphrased, but hopefully not butchered), the he came to give life and so that those who believe in him could live life more abundantly.     I think that this is Joel's main theme.  I also agree that sometimes he falls short, but then so do I.

I thank my lord Jesus that through his grace, he shed his blood to make me and all who believe in him acceptable to our father in heaven.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 23, 2005)

Maybe what I wrote came across wrong....but yes, I believe that I will eventually die.   Are we saying that Jesus never healed anyone since they all eventually died?    Even Lazarus eventually died 'again'.   

Here's one for you...

How do we know when it is God's will to heal someone?   (physically)

Bandy


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## blindhog (Feb 23, 2005)

I believe in divine healing.  But even Paul was denied three times.

It is according to His will, not ours.

Bandy tell me how we know it's God's will to heal someone physically.  Tell me with scripture I hope.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 23, 2005)

Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was not a disease....it was a 'messenger from Satan'...sent to buffet him.   Never is sickness spoken of that way.  

Isaiah 53:4,5    he bore our sins and sicknesses.     Did He decide to continue to bare our sins, but got tired of baring our sicknesses?

So, you're saying that the only way we can know if it's God's will to heal someone of a terminal disease is to wait and see if they die?   

Bandy


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## blindhog (Feb 23, 2005)

I bet Job would argue with that about satan not bringing sickness.

I would say yes we have to wait and see if someone dies or not.

You can't speak it so, unless it agrees with His will, as God is sovereign.

I have seen close freinds who bought into that thought, and they just didn't learn the whole council of the Lord.
We had one who died of pancreatic cancer, and the whole church was into getting her spoken into being healed.

She is with the Lord nevertheless.

He is sovereign.

We all die in the flesh.  But have everlasting life in the spirit.

By your teaching then we never get sick, never not get healed.  Not a true council.


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## Flash (Feb 23, 2005)

I've heard some say that Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was extremely bad eyesight.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 23, 2005)

Don't build a strawman.   I never said that we don't get sick.

You have no proof that your church friend is in heaven.   It may not have been God's will to save her....   

Bandy


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## blindhog (Feb 23, 2005)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> Don't build a strawman.   I never said that we don't get sick.
> 
> You have no proof that your church friend is in heaven.   It may not have been God's will to save her....
> 
> Bandy



2Peter 3:9..."The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;  but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to repentnace."


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 23, 2005)

So, why isn't everyone saved (spiritually) if it is God's will???       It must not be God's will for everyone to be saved since, obviously, not everyone gets saved.     Do we only believe assuredly in what we can't prove?  (Like your friend being in heaven?)    In the first century, men didn't have a problem believing that Jesus could heal....they had a problem believing that He could forgive sins.    To Jesus, His desire was to see each cured; sickness and its cause.   An imposter would have only said "your sins are forgiven..." instead of saying "arise and walk"...which demands immediate evidence.    

Same for healing:  God's word says that Jesus bore our sicknesses, but not all get healed.....    Why?      Because, even though it is God's will for men to be healed physically and spiritually, it still takes man 'believing' first.    

Jesus said...."As you have believed, so be it unto you"   You'd think that if it wasn't His will to heal occasionally that we'd see one example in the Gospels of where He said...."Sorry, but it is My Father's will for you to stay sick..."      Even the man that the disciples couldn't heal (which surely it must not have been God's will to heal him??) Jesus came along and set the record straight.....and healed him.    

Bandy


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## Joe Moran (Feb 24, 2005)

I do believe that y'all have hijacked my thread.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 24, 2005)

I'll sum up by saying this....

We are  fools to say that we absolutely believe God will give us eternal life, when we have no evidence of that, if we can't believe Him for healing now.  (When both are promised in His word)   

Like Blindhog said, we can't force God to give us eternal life; He is sovereign.   I know His word says that it is His will that none should perish...but many still do.  Same with healing....exactly the same.    He bore both (Matthew 8:17 is a first century translation of Isaiah 53)   "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses".    

I was healed of incurable cancer years ago (Bilateral lymphnode-involvement of metastatic malignant melanoma...to put it as the Shane's gods put it)    The Lord bore it....and cancer can't have me.   I think that is why when I see prayer requests on here for cancer victims it hits home with me.    

He never lets me down.   And I won't make excuses for Him either....as if disease is His will in some way.   If my little girl comes down with a terminal disease then there is no way in Hades that I will think God is doing a good work.    

Jesus never turned down anyone who came to Him for healing.    And, as you mentioned, He healed some who had no faith of their own.   It was (and still is since He is the same yesterday, today and forever) His nature to heal....and still is....when you believe Him.   If you can't believe that it is His will to heal today, then eternal life is questionable as well.   



Bandy


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