# Music worship in church- Can't get into it



## WaterBullDawg (Feb 27, 2011)

My question is whether I am somehow sinning or doing wrong by not getting into the music during church.  My entire life, whether it is the old hymns or the contemporary music, I have found myself for the most part bored with the music and really wanting it to be over.  

To be quite honest, there are times I have found it annoying.  Now this being said, my patience with it has definitely grown over the years (I'm 30) and there are even a few songs that I really like to hear.  

I guess my problem with it is that I feel like it is really taking away from the pastor.  I grew up and still attend for the most part a church where the pastor preaches directly from the bible and always references back what he is saying to biblical verses which I prefer.  They have come a long way in the music which is probably one of the main reasions they have been consistently growing for the past 20 or so years I have went there.  I guess I should feel lucky that I have a pastor who I really feel a connection with, as does my wife, but I wish I could get into the music more.   

My wife and I like to visit other churches, and our personalities fit the "contemporary style", but I will say that we must have a very knowledgable pastor who preaches from the bible bc our main reason for  going to church is to grow.  Almost like school I guess. The churches we have visited that are more contemporary seem to waste a lot of time on music and fluff in my opinion.  Not that I need or even like fire and brimstone sermons, but I  really do prefer a sermon where I can take notes and get a lot of practical info!  I can't help it! Am I in the minority here?!  

Let me also say, that I am 100% for worshipping in your own way.  Maybe this is simply not the way I worship, but I am afraid that it is a flaw in myself and is possibly ole 2 horns himself trying to form a wedge between my relationship with Christ.

What say y'all?


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## formula1 (Feb 27, 2011)

*Re:*

For the most part, I see no real issues with the way you feel.  In general, I would say be who you are and enjoy yourself in church, be it the pastor's teaching or whatever. Everyone is different and God will use you.  Just come as your are!

I would suggest two things: 

1) Fall in love with Jesus all the more, not that you aren't already, but the words of the music might come alive in you a little more if you seek to worship Him more. 

2) Do forget to pray and ask God to give you love for worship.  But true worship is found in the daily walk anyway and not so much a song.  I kinda think it all about this scripture below, though this may seem a little unusual of a choice:

Matthew 20 (ESV)
 25 But Jesus called them to him and said,  "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, 28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for( many."

God Bless!


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## polkhunt (Feb 27, 2011)

don't worry about it is what I say you are just admitting you are human not everyone likes the same thing. If the music bores you it just does nothing you can do about it. You can worship God in many ways not just with music.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 27, 2011)

I personally believe you're missing a great avenue of blessings and a wonderful way to worship God if you're not able to enjoy the singing of spiritual songs.
Jesus and the apostles often sang.  No matter where they were.

Maybe it's the musical instruments that's throwing you off.  Try ignoring the instruments.  Look at the words and 'get caught up' in the words.  Sings the words to God.  Or sings the words to yourself if appropriate.

And as the Bible says, "make melody in your heart".  In other words, sing from your soul.
The singing of those songs during worship IS your opportunity to truly worship and praise God.
Enjoy it.   It will lift your spirit.  And God will love you for it.


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## emtguy (Feb 27, 2011)

**k9** said:


> I agree with you if you don't like the most modern contempory Christian music, Christian rock, and Christian rap. I don't see anything Christian about it. It sound just like night club music (formerly called Juke Joints).
> 
> 
> I do love the hymns of the faith where God did something in a person's life and they wrote a song from their heart to bless the Lord and the Church.
> ...




You are 100 percent right IMHO!
Christian rock...Doesnt christain mean " christ like"? Thats the same as saying christ like rock, christ like rap. It does not exist, Its just the church trying to be more wordly.

To the OP, i would not worry about the music and if you like it or not, i PLAY music in church and get bored sometimes with it, if you enjoy the preacher and think he is walking a Godly life and can teach you things then dont sweat it...enjoy the sermon and learn from it.
I dont think theres even any mention of Jesus singing in the bible or being part of a song service except Matt 26:30. 
Dont let it bother you,


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## Ronnie T (Feb 27, 2011)

Exodus 15:1  Then Moses and the sons of Israel sang this song to the LORD, and said," I will sing to the LORD, for He is highly exalted;

Judges 5:3  "Hear, O kings; give ear, O rulers! I--to the LORD, I will sing,I will sing praise to the LORD, the God of Israel.

2 Chronicles 20:22   When they began singing and praising, the LORD set ambushes against the sons of Ammon, Moab and Mount Seir, who had come against Judah; so they were routed.

Matt 26:29  "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom." 30After singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Acts 16:25  But about midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns of praise to God, and the prisoners were listening to them;

Romans 15:9  and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written," THEREFORE I WILL GIVE PRAISE TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES,AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME."

1 Corinthians 14:15  What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

Ephesians 5:19  speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;

Colossians 3:16  Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

James 5:13  Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.

*And there are hundreds more examples of the need for God's people to sing praises to/in His name.
It isn't a form of entertainment.  It isn't one of those things a church could have, or they could choose not to have.
It is, and forever more should be a part of the individual Christians life and the churches' existance.

Play the instruments if you like. Enjoy the instruments if you like.  But they are for you.  The singing is for God and biblically it isn't optional.  And why would it be optional?

If you don't enjoy it, then reevaluate it's meaning to you, and pray about it.  Then worship God through the singing of songs.
It will please God for you to worship Him.  And you'll draw close to Him through it.


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## emtguy (Feb 28, 2011)

after reading ronnies informative post i do see i am correct by saying Jesus was only noted once singing a hymn im Matt 26:30, thought i might have missed it cuz i went from memory.

I also agree 100 percentwith ronnie saying it is not a form of entertainment, just afraid alot of worship leaders dont know that.


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## emtguy (Feb 28, 2011)

Gatorb said:


> so the Lord told you he doesn't like upbeat music and it has to be a style made famous in a specific period of history. Nothing before or nothing after brings Honor to God?




so the lord told you he does like upbeat music and the church copying the world and bringinging its music and beats into the church since its a " new era"?

When i can't tell from the music if im in a nightclub or a church then something is wrong IMHO. that all im saying.


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## pnome (Feb 28, 2011)

Best Christian Church music ever:



Almost makes me a believer.


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## gtparts (Feb 28, 2011)

I sure am glad I don't place a lot of emphasis on the opinions of others. This thread has taken a turn that seems divisive. It is one thing to state the genre of Christian music that you prefer (that's why it is called a "preference") and quite another to condemn another genre as "being of the devil".
  While I have my preferences, I also recognize that a love of the Lord can be expressed in many words set to vastly different notes and rhythms. If so doing, makes attendance at a worship service more palatable to one lost person, who might hear and respond to the Gospel, I say "Somebody needs to be trying this."
If you look at it from a different perspective, it may be that Christ is being presented to folks who would otherwise never hear. Could you honestly say that it would be better for them to never hear?

Brothers and sisters, one of the reasons we are statistically losing the battle for leading the world to Christ is that many are unwilling to do what is necessary to accomplish that end. 

1 Corinthians 9:21-23 (New Living Translation)

21 When I am with the Gentiles who do not follow the Jewish law, I too live apart from that law so I can bring them to Christ. But I do not ignore the law of God; I obey the law of Christ.

 22 When I am with those who are weak, I share their weakness, for I want to bring the weak to Christ. Yes, I try to find common ground with everyone, doing everything I can to save some. 23 I do everything to spread the Good News and share in its blessings. 

And then, later, to underscore the change that needs to take place....

2 Corinthians 5:17 (New Living Translation)

17 This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!

New life! New methods! Same message!!!
The message has not changed, but the ways in which it can be communicated have multiplied. We use the phone, radio, audio recordings, TV, movies, books, airplanes, cars to reach the lost and each has drawbacks and limitations. But, we still use them because these things allow us to better spread God's truth to all. Music, all styles, are tools to that end. If we don't make use of them, we are like the steward who buried his one talent. It is wicked, lazy, and disobedient to fail to reach out and grow the Kingdom through the means that God has given us.

If it ain't your cup of tea, find a cup you prefer.... and don't disparage those who enjoy the kind for which you don't have a fondness.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2011)

pnome said:


> Best Christian Church music ever:



Agreed.


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## formula1 (Feb 28, 2011)

*Re:*

Some of you guys completely miss the point of music.  Most of those hymns you sing and enjoy were secular tunes with Christian words, so in effect they are the worlds music by your definition.  Just look at the stories of Fanny Crosby(all over the Baptist Hymnal) and Willian Booth (founder of the Salvation Army).

The point of music is not really worship alone. The point of music is also another tool we use to reach others with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  If you are all about Jesus, then I hope you are not deceived enough to say something like, 'Well if you'll listen to my kind of music then I will accept you as a Christian!" How narrow minded and dead is that thought! What makes music evil is its message not its beat.  We need to do what is necessary to reach people for Jesus. Do you want to send a generation to he$$ because of your personal preferences?  Are you kidding me?

Matthew 23:13
But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.

1 Corinthian 9 (ESV)
19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

1 Corinthians 10
 23 "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up. 24 Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor.

1 Corinthians 10
31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.

Galatians 5
 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

So who on here has the guts enough to listen to the following and say it did not come from God?  This is one of those songs that opened up my eyes to the power of music in sending out the message, even though I don't really care for the genre.




And thanks GTparts for your post!


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## WaterBullDawg (Feb 28, 2011)

Thank you all for the replies.  Very much appreciated.  

The bottom line here, at least what I have decided, is that I should try to get more from the songs themselves and should think of it as another way to worship the Lord and as mentioned a way for the Word to reach many others who wouldn't hear it in the same way I do.  Plus, like I said before, there are quite a few songs I like!  Only a select few that get on my nerves. 

I know at the end of the day the Lord knows my heart, so I believe effort is the most important part. 

Im gonna keep trying to give it a chance.  

Thanks again fellas for the advice.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2011)

gtparts said:


> I sure am glad I don't place a lot of emphasis on the opinions of others. This thread has taken a turn that seems divisive. It is one thing to state the genre of Christian music that you prefer (that's why it is called a "preference") and quite another to condemn another genre as "being of the devil".
> While I have my preferences, I also recognize that a love of the Lord can be expressed in many words set to vastly different notes and rhythms. If so doing, makes attendance at a worship service more palatable to one lost person, who might hear and respond to the Gospel, I say "Somebody needs to be trying this."
> If you look at it from a different perspective, it may be that Christ is being presented to folks who would otherwise never hear. Could you honestly say that it would be better for them to never hear?
> 
> ...



I agree with all that you've said, but I'd like to add this just for thought.

Why did it ever have to change anyway?  If in the early church spiritual singing only had to do with brothers and sisters joining their voices and hearts together in worship to God, how did we get to the point of someone having preferences concerning which "style" they "preferred"?  
"Preferred"?  Worshipping God thru singing should have never become a "me" issue.  At ninety percent of the churches I've ever visited, outside of my local, you can't hear the words being sing anyway.  The full orchestra is so loud that God probably has his hands over his ears.

And is this 'new-age' interest in the musicality part of our worship really working?  Really.

Some 'right now' facts:
The church is a smaller percentage of the american population than it has ever been in our history.  In other words, by population, the church in America is losing ground.
Also, in record numbers, teenagers and young adults never ever make the adjustment from the youth-devotion mentality into the adult mentality at church.  Rather, they leave.  Look around you.

When singing in church is about me making choices, it's members will be content and enjoy it.............
When singing in church is about me worshiping God, God will bless and strengthen me.

Now, if a person can "worship" with Christian rap, more power to them.  But I have very serious doubts that it's actually happening.

"Be with me Lord, I cannot live without thee;
I cannot bear to take one step along.
I cannot bear the loads of life unaided;
I need thy strenth, to lean myself upon."


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## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2011)

formula1, you said this:

The point of music is not really worship persay. The point of music is really another tool we use to reach others with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you are all about Jesus, then I hope you are not deceived enough to say something like, 'Well if you'll listen to my kind of music then I will accept you as a Christian!" How narrow minded and dead is that thought! What makes music evil is its message not its beat. We need to do what is necessary to reach people for Jesus. Do you want to send a generation to he$$ because of your personal preferences? Are you kidding me?

Do you really mean those first two sentences?
If you do, I believe I've found the first real scriptural disagreement between myself, you, and God's word.
Singing has always been about worship God and encouraging each other through the words of the songs.
It was never ever instituted as a tool to attract people into the worship.

It was first instituted as a way of worshipping God long before Christ came.  Then Christ himself set an example of continuing it.  Then the apostles made it a doctrinal part of the new testament church.

Without singing, 75 percent of your worship opportunities during assemblies disappear.

I think I'll just stop right here and sing a song of worship to God.


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## formula1 (Feb 28, 2011)

*Re:*

RonnieT:

I really like both of your posts in this thread and I agree with most if not all that you have said. Worship is not about genre at all, but rather our daily walk. I hope you know that I'm not relating genres and styles of music to worship.  BTW, our church is growing and it has nothing to do with the music, but its all about Jesus.

John 4:23
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.

Did that clarify it a little for you Ronnie?  I'll be glad to add more clarification if you like. Music is certainly one way we can worship, but it is not the only way.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2011)

formula1 said:


> RonnieT:
> 
> I really like both of your posts in this thread and I agree with most if not all that you have said. Worship is not about genre at all, but rather our daily walk. I hope you know that I'm not relating genres and styles of music to worship.  BTW, our church is growing and it has nothing to do with the music, but its all about Jesus.
> 
> ...




Thanks, I misunderstood ya brother.


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## gtparts (Feb 28, 2011)

I have stood in congregations that were predominantly, overwhelmingly, foreign in their language, culture,and location, yet been spiritually lifted to the rafters. I have stood in churches using traditional hymnals in English and moved to tears for the lyrics and music. And I have experienced the cold and lifeless service of a congregation that has only focused on itself for years. 

Worship and the abundant life are found in relationship, to God and in service to others. We only find relationship to others while meeting their needs. The world has no need of us if we do not offer something they need.... and they do not understand their greatest need unless they hear,.... and they do not hear unless we meet them where they are. 

Is your unwillingness to do things differently keeping you from the world God has commanded us to reach?


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## formula1 (Feb 28, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Thanks, I misunderstood ya brother.



I changed the wording to better convey my meaning.  Please let me know if it's not acceptable.


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## apoint (Feb 28, 2011)

I think it's called "praise and worship" for those of you who are missing the big picture. Nothing new under the sun, diluted religion at best.


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## Tim L (Feb 28, 2011)

Why not visit a Church of Christ that sings traditional hymns?  I see your in Grayson; not sure about what COC congregations are on that side of the county, but visit Buford Church of Christ one sunday morning; service starts at 10:00 and see if you like it....


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## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2011)

gtparts said:


> I have stood in congregations that were predominantly, overwhelmingly, foreign in their language, culture,and location, yet been spiritually lifted to the rafters. I have stood in churches using traditional hymnals in English and moved to tears for the lyrics and music. And I have experienced the cold and lifeless service of a congregation that has only focused on itself for years.
> 
> Worship and the abundant life are found in relationship, to God and in service to others. We only find relationship to others while meeting their needs. The world has no need of us if we do not offer something they need.... and they do not understand their greatest need unless they hear,.... and they do not hear unless we meet them where they are.
> 
> Is your unwillingness to do things differently keeping you from the world God has commanded us to reach?



I agree also.
Ultimately, It becomes a personal issue as to whether a person can truly worship God with the type of singing offered.
And that always goes back to a persons heart.


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## huntmore (Feb 28, 2011)

Pnome yep them Catholics can sing pretty good. 

I guess I am as guilty as anyone about putting things down just because it isn't what I have been taught or doing for the last 50 years. Seems to me, if it brings you closer to Christ, no Christian should have a problem with it.
  I and others here are suffering from, Old ears. My kids can understand songs that I have no idea what they are singing. That doesn't mean they don't worship God with their words. I do have a problem with people jumping up and down and acting crazy. I don't really think they can concentrate on what they are singing, but who knows. I personally like to sing without the instruments. 
The people here who say "I like the old stuff" like The old rugged cross and rock of ages. Well them songs aren't really that old if you think about it. Maybe a hundred or most likely not that old.
I think singing to God is more important than preaching. Being at Church should be more about us  gathering together to worship God than listening to a  preacher.


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## Lowjack (Feb 28, 2011)

Exodus 15;1


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## decoyed (Feb 28, 2011)

don't care for the music aspect of Church either but always stand, listen to the words and meditate on the message.  Most in the congregation prolly appreciate the way I roll.  Atleast the ones who have heard me try...Never had a taste for ANY Christian commercial music. Yuck.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2011)

What all of these comments has shown me is that what occurred from the beginning of time until Moses, and now on into the Gospel times, has changed concerning singing praises.

It didn't have to change, but it did, and now it has become an issue within the church.

Personal preference came onto the scene.
Personal preference.  "I like the church this way".
"And I like the Lord's church another way".

I can just hear the apostles now, as they were leaving the upper room and Jesus stopped them to sing.
"Lord, why don't we put a little 'umpf' into the song, kinda like the Romans do when they dance and enjoy themselves around the night fires?"  "Why can't we have options?"  "Why can't we have it our way?"


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## Bitteroot (Feb 28, 2011)

As coming from a denomination many years ago that used music in worship, I enjoyed it and participated in it.  I have since become of a different opinion on music within the worship service, and am n longer affiliated with that group. I can no longer accept that it is pleasing to God in my opinion. I find no reference where it is either authorized or used within the new testament church.  I've often heard the "well it's a talent" argument and that I was neglecting God because I didn't use it in worship. My response was that I hit a golf ball pretty good too, but never saw the need to show anyone during the worhip service.  It wasn't until I attended a lectureship at our COC congregation one year, and I led singing that I fully solidifying my conviction.  Approximately 500 plus people singing with one heart in offering to God. The sound was so amazing it far exceeded any man made musical instrument that I had ever played or listened to.  The instruments are made of man, we are made of God. We are his instrument in so many ways. I can't imagine a greater pride that a father would have from his child. So you can't sing? Tell that to your father when you offer it in honor. You don't like the song because Sally Mae can't sing?  Couple her voice with a few others and listen to the blending of melody. Everyone has a place in the song service at a church meeting. They have a part to fulfill, that is not on sheet music.  A gift offered of man made pride, or a gift offered of themselves?  I know that it is an opinion...but I also, know that musical instruments can be removed from the worship service without offence (except maybe to ones pride) but they cannot be added without offence to some, nor with absolute biblical justification for doing so.  I guess, the opinion is somewhat rigid.. but I too think of a couple of guys that reached up to steady an Ark to keep it from falling over.....And God winked at ignorance during that period of time.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2011)

Bitteroot said:


> As coming from a denomination many years ago that used music in worship, I enjoyed it and participated in it.  I have since become of a different opinion on music within the worship service, and am n longer affiliated with that group. I can no longer accept that it is pleasing to God in my opinion. I find no reference where it is either authorized or used within the new testament church.  I've often heard the "well it's a talent" argument and that I was neglecting God because I didn't use it in worship. My response was that I hit a golf ball pretty good too, but never saw the need to show anyone during the worhip service.  It wasn't until I attended a lectureship at our COC congregation one year, and I led singing that I fully solidifying my conviction.  Approximately 500 plus people singing with one heart in offering to God. The sound was so amazing it far exceeded any man made musical instrument that I had ever played or listened to.  The instruments are made of man, we are made of God. We are his instrument in so many ways. I can't imagine a greater pride that a father would have from his child. So you can't sing? Tell that to your father when you offer it in honor. You don't like the song because Sally Mae can't sing?  Couple her voice with a few others and listen to the blending of melody. Everyone has a place in the song service at a church meeting. They have a part to fulfill, that is not on sheet music.  A gift offered of man made pride, or a gift offered of themselves?  I know that it is an opinion...but I also, know that musical instruments can be removed from the worship service without offence (except maybe to ones pride) but they cannot be added without offence to some, nor with absolute biblical justification for doing so.  I guess, the opinion is somewhat rigid.. but I too think of a couple of guys that reached up to steady an Ark to keep it from falling over.....And God winked at ignorance during that period of time.



For me, your comments make more sense than all our others combined.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 28, 2011)

Bitteroot said:


> Approximately 500 plus people singing with one heart in offering to God.


 
I was at an Urbana Missions conference over 20 years ago and I can still remember the sound of the 5 to 6 thousand worshipping voices.  That was a foretaste of heaven for sure.


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## Israel (Feb 28, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> I was at an Urbana Missions conference over 20 years ago and I can still remember the sound of the 5 to 6 thousand worshipping voices.  That was a foretaste of heaven for sure.


Was that you? Do you remember a coupla scruffy looking guys that may not have found favor with too many there? 
A very snowy and cold time it was if I remember rightly.


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## hayseed_theology (Feb 28, 2011)

Bitteroot said:


> I find no reference where it is either authorized or used within the new testament church.



What about chairs or pews?  What about offering plates?  I can't think of a reference where the use of chairs or pews is either authorized or recorded within the NT church.  The regulative principle of worship can be misapplied.



Bitteroot said:


> I've often heard the "well it's a talent" argument and that I was neglecting God because I didn't use it in worship.



"Give thanks to the Lord with the lyre; make melody to him with the harp of ten strings!  Sing to him a new song; play _skillfully_ on the strings, with loud shouts."  Psalm 33:2-3



Bitteroot said:


> I know that it is an opinion...but I also, know that musical instruments can be removed from the worship service without offence (except maybe to ones pride) but they cannot be added without offence to some, nor with absolute biblical justification for doing so.  I guess, the opinion is somewhat rigid.. but I too think of a couple of guys that reached up to steady an Ark to keep it from falling over.....And God winked at ignorance during that period of time.



What do you do with the book of Psalms?  It is filled with calls to praise God with instruments.  Why would God have developed a sudden distaste for instruments in the NT?  Throughout the OT, instruments are a part of making music, singing, and worshiping God.  I think the burden of proof lies with anyone who asserts that this has somehow changed in the NT.


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## Bitteroot (Feb 28, 2011)

hayseed_theology said:


> What about chairs or pews?  What about offering plates?  I can't think of a reference where the use of chairs or pews is either authorized or recorded within the NT church.  The regulative principle of worship can be misapplied.
> 
> Are they items used specifically in worship? Nothing in there about a not smoking weed in the back pew either...
> "Give thanks to the Lord with the lyre; make melody to him with the harp of ten strings!  Sing to him a new song; play _skillfully_ on the strings, with loud shouts."  Psalm 33:2-3
> ...



Again.. old covenant.. if the old was satisfactory.. why did he make another one.  Do you still hold with eye for an eye, stoning...?


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## hayseed_theology (Feb 28, 2011)

Bitteroot said:


> Again.. old covenant.. if the old was satisfactory.. why did he make another one.  Do you still hold with eye for an eye, stoning...?



The point of the new covenant is not to get rid of instruments in the worship of God.  Heb, Rom, and Gal make it clear that the need for the new covenant is about atonement for sins and righteousness that comes by grace, not getting rid of instruments.  What makes the use of instruments a part of the old covenant that was made obsolete, their mere mention in the OT?

In Rev. 5:8, the elders are holding harps when they are worshiping God.  In Rev. 15, saints appear playing harps and singing songs of praise to God.  God doesn't hate instruments.  He enjoys them when they are a part of the worship of his name as evidence by Psalms and Rev.

I agree that there is an not explicit reference to instruments in the NT church, which means there is absolutely no condemnation of them in the NT either.  To say that instruments are not to be used in worship is an argument from silence.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2011)

Here's my position on instruments in worship.

I do have serious questions concerning the fact that musical instruments were never ever mentioned in the New Testament writings of the Gospel.  It's totally gone.  So many times it could have been mentioned.

Historians record that even into the 2nd and 3rd century there was no instruments in Christ's church.

Instruments were still a part of Judaism, but not the church.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2011)

One of the many early Church historians.

CHRYSOSTOM "David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)


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## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2011)

WESLEY 'I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard." (John Wesley, founder of Methodism, quoted in Adam Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, p. 685)


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## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2011)

I posted none of the above by way of condemning instruments.
But to illustrate why I pause on the subject.

As recorded, it is the heart that sings.
And I pray that everyone receives as great a blessing as I personally do when I praise God with the singing of songs.

Is the singing for Him, or is it for me?  Could God receive more from my singing than I do?  

For me it is one of the great things in life.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 28, 2011)

Israel said:


> Was that you? Do you remember a coupla scruffy looking guys that may not have found favor with too many there?
> A very snowy and cold time it was if I remember rightly.



1981 was the year. My 1980 college beard was gone by then, but I would've blended well with scruffy brethren.  

I remember that on one cold night a good dose of snow had frozen up real solid on the auditorium roof.  The following day during the conference, the sun and some warmth got those huge pieces of ice to start sliding off the roof.  Everyone inside could hear the rumble!  When we left, we had to walk under a long corridor away from the building and the falling ice.  

Glad to see you 'round these parts posting again, brother.  Always appreciate your thoughts and heart.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 28, 2011)

One final from me on the topic...

God says He gives us richly "_all things to enjoy_" in *1 Timothy 6:17* , and I for one happen to enjoy many different forms of music. If He does not condemn me for various music _forms _I listen to, what should then keep me from enjoying worship with the instruments from those forms as well? 

All I'm saying is that it boils down to personal preference, and what your heart allows itself to be blessed by.  

If you can be drawn close to the Lord in worship with, for example,  a background melody played from a 12 string electric guitar ... 
(mind you, it has to be slight to moderate reverb thru dual humbucker pickups  )
... then you will be blessed.

And if you can't, that's fine, you won't.  

Find what works for you in worship to the Lord.


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## gtparts (Mar 1, 2011)

I tend to avoid legalism, more so than musical instruments.


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## formula1 (Mar 1, 2011)

*Re:*



**k9** said:


> All that we do whether it be worship, prayers, preaching, singing, thanksgiving,  love of the brethren, helping others, etc. should glorify our heavenly Father, and when what we do doesn't glorify God, then Christians should scrap it as a bad practice.
> 
> 1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.



Thank you. And you will find that same scripture in English Standard Version in Post #16.

So you see K9, we are on the same page after all. God bless in all you do for Him!


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> One final from me on the topic...
> 
> God says He gives us richly "_all things to enjoy_" in *1 Timothy 6:17* , and I for one happen to enjoy many different forms of music. If He does not condemn me for various music _forms _I listen to, what should then keep me from enjoying worship with the instruments from those forms as well?
> 
> ...



I obviously agree with you, but you used two words that have become a part of every modern day Christian's heart.  "Personal Preference".
We all need it "our way" these days don't we?  It has to be the way "I like it to be".
And today, we're told that we need to follow our own individual "heart".  But God says our heart is the most deceptive possession we have.  It will lie to us in a (excuse the pun) 'heart beat'.  

I sometimes think that when God hears the words "personal preference" it has the same effect as someone scratching their fingernails across a chalkboard.

I try to do all things just the way God wanted me to without adding too much of my dumbness to God's will.
So everyone please forgive me with I sound a bit legalistic.


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## formula1 (Mar 1, 2011)

*Re:*

It's about a pure heart and not personal preference, which all of us should be able to acknowledge that we are still a work-in-progress in faith!

Mark 7:15
There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God,and renew a right spirit within me.

Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

1 Timothy 1:5
The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

1 Peter
22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2011)

formula1 said:


> It's about a pure heart and not personal preference, which all of us should be able to acknowledge that we are still a work-in-progress in faith!
> 
> Mark 7:15
> There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.
> ...




Those are great verses that tell us a lot about how important a pure heart is.
But I would advise a person not to ever trust their heart unless it leads them right back to God.

Prov 28:26  He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
But he who walks wisely will be delivered. 

Jere 17:9  "The heart is more deceitful than all else 
And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

When people follow their heart, preachers commit adultery and the brotherhood get drunk when out of town, and only go to church twice a year.

Their heart tells them it's alright, even though God's word might not.


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## thedeacon (Mar 1, 2011)

God said to sing and make melody in your heart. When we sing we should be doing it to praise him and to bring glory to him. In the post I keep noticing the words I, My, Mine, etc.

ITS ABOUT GOD its not about me or you its about God.

God didn't say sing Good he said praise me and that is what is important. It is an important part of the worship of God, it is a part of the worship that everyone can take an active part, even the little children. 

Think about it and don't miss the chance to praise God.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 1, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I obviously agree with you, but you used two words that have become a part of every modern day Christian's heart. "Personal Preference".
> We all need it "our way" these days don't we? It has to be the way "I like it to be".
> And today, we're told that we need to follow our own individual "heart". But God says our heart is the most deceptive possession we have. It will lie to us in a (excuse the pun) 'heart beat'.
> 
> ...


 
Freedom in Christ is a wonderful thing, I hope I never fear it's implications as I guard my heart from the world.

But I understand your point, Ronnie.  I think what I didn't include was that as we seek God's will as explained in scriptue, and to some extent there is silence, we need to find between ourselves and the Lord what ministers to us on a rich, deep spiritual level (in this case, as far as worship is concerned).
"The mind of a man plans his way, but the Lord directs His steps"  ... if I surrender to His will and ask for His wisdom/blessing, I can rightly enjoy the things that bring me closer to Him.  We may disagree on what those things are, but I do not find anywhere in scripture to judge someone for how he ministers to the Lord in worship, and with what he uses.

I guess I should have used "individual expression" instead of "personal preference" to discuss my thoughts.  

Think of different cultures also.  I believe the living God takes joy in the expressions of worship across the globe, with dance, instruments and song. I think of the wonderful Messianic Jewish celebrations I've been part of, the loud vocal and music expressions in black congregational meetings, and countless ministry experiences at mission conferences with the local traditional instruments and believers shouting with joy to the Lord!

Now, I'm sorry if saying 'dance' gives some of the baptists on this forum a cornary , but let's face it, individual expression is part of what makes each of us unique. 

blessings ya'll,   
~Walt


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## formula1 (Mar 1, 2011)

*Re:*



StriperAddict said:


> Now, I'm sorry if saying 'dance' gives some of the baptists on this forum a cornary , but let's face it, individual expression is part of what makes each of us unique.
> 
> blessings ya'll,
> ~Walt


 
*Psalm 150:4 *
4 Praise him with tambourine and *dance*; praise him with strings and pipe!

*Ecclesiastes 3:4*
a time to weep, and a time to laugh;a time to mourn, and a time to *dance*;


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## StriperAddict (Mar 1, 2011)

formula1 said:


> *Psalm 150:4 *
> 4 Praise him with tambourine and *dance*; praise him with strings and pipe!
> 
> *Ecclesiastes 3:4*
> a time to weep, and a time to laugh;a time to mourn, and a time to *dance*;


 

Yes, but brother....

you're quoting the OLD............................    



J/K... I offer a hearty amen to that!!


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## huntmore (Mar 1, 2011)

formula1 said:


> *Psalm 150:4 *
> 4 Praise him with tambourine and *dance*; praise him with strings and pipe!
> 
> *Ecclesiastes 3:4*
> a time to weep, and a time to laugh;a time to mourn, and a time to *dance*;



Thanks formula1  I knew it was in the Bible, but didn't know were. Tambourine is a musical instrument. Some people get carried away witht the craziest things.


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## Bitteroot (Mar 1, 2011)

I guess I opened this can of worms to an extent... so...

If God said use gopher wood... would any other be acceptable?

If God said don't touch the Ark, even if it were falling would it be acceptable?

If God said offer up with this type of fire... would any other be acceptable?

If God said offer a meat sacrifice.. would vegatables be acceptable?

If God said command water to come forth from the rock, would striking it be acceptable?

I'm not asking acceptable to you or me.. but to him?

I just try to follow the commandment concerning this issue as written in the New Testament. Had there been another directive given past that it would be different IMHO.  But you guys know more about it than I do and study much more as well.  So.. if I'm wrong about it PLEASE correct me in a biblical way.  Not just becase you feel that I am being legalistic.  I'm not going to make fun of you or criticize you because you believe differently. So please don't do that to me. Sometimes following the teachings of the bible, you have to ask tough and uncomfortable questions.  It doesn't mean that you look down on your brother, I think it means you care for him more. If any of you have a child and you feel that child may be in error, would you not try and correct them. I saw another post on one of the forums where it talked about consorting with drunkards and people that they felt Jesus would hang out with.  I agree, he was a spiritually mature teacher. There are possibly those here that could do the same thing. I could not.  I would fall victim to the desire of flesh.  Others not so much. Point is.. we are all spiritually immature in some matters, more so in others.  Pray tell the day we feel we understand it all, there will be no reason to look further than that.  It will take me the rest of my life, and a lil reincarnation to boot...


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2011)

huntmore said:


> Thanks formula1  I knew it was in the Bible, but didn't know were. Tambourine is a musical instrument. Some people get carried away witht the craziest things.



You'll also find the shedding of blood in the old testament.
Jesus ended the shedding of animals, but nothing says we can't do it anyway.  So why don't we?

We don't because it would be silly to do something just for our own sake and enjoyment.  If God no longer gets anything from the sacrificing of animals we'd say someone was nutts for doing it anyway.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2011)

Facts:

1.  Though never commanded, instrumental music is mentioned in the Old Testament.

2.  Instrumental music is never mentioned in the inspired writings of the New Testament.  Not one single record of instruments being used in the first century church.

3.  Not one single historical document record musical instruments being allowed in the church during the first 4 centuries.

4.  There are many historical documents, written by historians who lived in the 1st through 4 centuries that clearly say the only instrument used in the early church was the voice and heart of the believer.

5.  There came a point (you can research it) when church members began wanting to add instruments to the worship of God.  The church leaders quickly quietened those voices.
Soon, the subject arose again.  Instruments were brought into a few select churches, (kinda like a few select churches today now have homosexual pastors).
It didn't last very long before instruments were driven out of the Lord's church again.
Most American denominations did not allow their addition to the praise singing.

6.  Now, centuries later, our hearts have been conditioned to not only allow it, but even say we can worship with that piano or drum even if no sings accompanies.

7.  Through the ages, our hearts have gone through a series of reconditionings.
Today, they're being worked on again.
That homosexual couples can be joined by God in marriage.
That God now accepts homosexuals in the church and His kingdom.
That God won't condemn a poor teenager who wants an abortion.

Our hearts are being conditioned to believe God accepts our getting married and divorced as many times as we want to, for as many reasons as we want to.  The Bible tells us we can't but our hearts tells us that now we can.

Freedom in Christ.

I've begun a thread in the sister forum concerning Freedom in Christ.  I hope everyone will make comment at that thread.

Now, my heart leads me to go mow up some more leaves out back.


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## Bitteroot (Mar 1, 2011)

Liberalism should only be in our hearts when it comes to giving of ourselves. In every other aspect, it has and will continue to be the downfall of nations, men, and religion.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 1, 2011)

Ronnie, your #7 point has no place in this, IMO. Apples and catus.

Are you taking any time to explain to the leaders of african churches that their worship ways are anethma??


>sigh<

I'm done.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Ronnie, your #7 point has no place in this, IMO. Apples and catus.
> 
> Are you taking any time to explain to the leaders of african churches that their worship ways are anethma??
> 
> ...



No.  I hadn't given them any consideration at all as to their traditions.  They'll continue doing what they want to do, just like all the rest of us.  I've only been thinking of what the church originally was as compared to what the church is today.

And believe me, # 7 is a part of what's on my mind this afternoon.  Times are changing, we're changing, the church is movin on.


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## Bitteroot (Mar 1, 2011)

And if they are to remain an autonomous congregation, they must continue to decide for themselves. All the Bible can do is point the way, it is up to the individual to follow it.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 1, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> No. I hadn't given them any consideration at all as to their traditions. They'll continue doing what they want to do, just like all the rest of us. I've only been thinking of what the church originally was as compared to what the church is today.
> 
> And believe me, # 7 is a part of what's on my mind this afternoon. Times are changing, we're changing, the church is movin on.


 
Yes, the moral decline and acceptance of such things as gay pastors/clergy, etc., is a bitter root in the american church.  The overall weakening I see is like what Frank Peretti wrote about in "This present darkness". The screwtape letters by C.S. Lewis also come to mind.

But I really think it's a stretch to include worship forms in the mix.
Don't get me wrong, some look like rebellion, but that is my "weakness" judgement, not the Lords.  And I can't place credence on this because of church history, either.  

IMO, the inner breakdown of spiritual homes isn't a function of the "how's" of worship, but it's about families that need to emphasize the value of worship altogether. And not just getting it from a service... where are the real homes who unite in prayer and stand for the gospel, where are the men to lead and keep the family focus on the will of God, and not what their sons and daughters were just txt'd, from a "friend".  Who is stopping 5th Ave. and all the hollywood assertions that there's meaning from being part of the "jet set".

Ronnie, sorry I'm going off track.  But I hope I made my point more clear.  And sorry for the hammer   

Grace & peace


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## WaterBullDawg (Mar 1, 2011)

Very interesting reading everyone's replies.  

I never imagined music in worship would garner so many opinions.  

Ronnie, are you sure that no instruments were ever mentioned in the New Testament?  If so thats fascinating.  I wonder why....??

Not that it should be a point or topic that we should turn into a furious debate, but it is definitely interesting.  

I try to read and understand the Bible as much as I can, but there is so much to take in.  I admit that I have to turn to my wife much more often than not bc of my lack of knowledge.


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## huntmore (Mar 1, 2011)

ronnie t is a trumpet a musical instrument? If so you may want to read revelation again. How about harps are they musical instruments? Again you may want to read revelation.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2011)

If anyone thinks I'm condemning any church that has musical instruments please be assured that I am not.  God will either accept our worship of Him or he will not.  And I don't have the job of deciding those things.

When I see things happening in the world today it causes me to think more and more about the early church.  The church the apostles established upon Jesus Christ's inspiration.  The church that is written about in Jerusalem and in Rome and in Corinth.  I'm able to see the problems they had and how the apostles quickly pointed those problems out to them.  Including skipping church.
I'm also reminded that the early church is what I should represent today in my life and in the life of those God has assigned me to.
I believe it's my responsibility to be like that church.
I honestly shouldn't care what the church down the street from me does.  I need to care what the New Testament 1st century church did.
Might this all be a mute subject to God????????  Yes, it might.
But he'll know one thing from me.  That I sought to worship Him in complete spirit and truth.  And I make no apologies for that.

Is the church I fellowship with perfect?????  Are you kidding me?  We have issues just like everyone else.  And we are always greatful for God's grace and mercy and loving kindness.

I'm not claiming a superiority.  I'm just talking about the way it was and how it's changed.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2011)

huntmore said:


> ronnie t is a trumpet a musical instrument? If so you may want to read revelation again. How about harps are they musical instruments? Again you may want to read revelation.



In most, if not all, the harps mentioned are not harps that were played.  Paul says voices sounded like harps.  And an Elder was holding a harp that symbolized something.

The trumpet was blown by an Angel as a way of anouncement, Not to worship God with it.

Rev 18 does list several instruments.  They are the instruments of the evil inhabitants of babylon who will be destroyed and never heard from again.

As I said:  There is absolutely no mention in the New Testament of musical instrument being used in the worship of God.  And certainly not in the church.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2011)

huntmore said:


> ronnie t is a trumpet a musical instrument? If so you may want to read revelation again. How about harps are they musical instruments? Again you may want to read revelation.




You should do a historical search concerning the acceptance of instruments into the early Catholic church.
It took almost a thousand years before they allow the instruments of the "pagans" to be admitted into their worship.


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## hayseed_theology (Mar 1, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I do have serious questions concerning the fact that musical instruments were never ever mentioned in the New Testament writings of the Gospel.  It's totally gone.  So many times it could have been mentioned.
> 
> Historians record that even into the 2nd and 3rd century there was no instruments in Christ's church.



Argument from silence.  The early church struggled with asceticism and legalism.  I have great respect for the early church, but they were not perfect.



Ronnie T said:


> One of the many early Church historians.
> 
> CHRYSOSTOM "David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)



I have respect for Chrysostom, but he is known for his asceticism.  Church tradition is not our authority.



Ronnie T said:


> WESLEY 'I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard." (John Wesley, founder of Methodism, quoted in Adam Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, p. 685)



Pure opinion.  No biblical support given.  Wesley was a great man of God but I believe he was incorrect on some issues.  Wesley's opinions are not my authority.



Bitteroot said:


> I guess I opened this can of worms to an extent... so...
> 
> If God said use gopher wood... would any other be acceptable?
> 
> ...



I doubt you really subscribe to the hermeneutical approach you are offering.  Do you greet everyone in your church with a holy kiss?  That's an explicit command given to the church in the NT.  It doesn't say handshake.  It doesn't say warm smile.  It says a kiss.

As mentioned previously, in the Old Testament, the Word of God continually associates singing the praises of God with using instruments.  As I also mentioned, the New Testament indicates that singing the praises of God can and will involve instruments, see Revelation.



Ronnie T said:


> You'll also find the shedding of blood in the old testament.
> Jesus ended the shedding of animals, but nothing says we can't do it anyway.  So why don't we?
> 
> We don't because it would be silly to do something just for our own sake and enjoyment.  If God no longer gets anything from the sacrificing of animals we'd say someone was nutts for doing it anyway.



Show me the passage that states that Christ put an end to the use of instruments in worship.  Scripture clearly articulates that sacrifice was a temporary ritual pointing to the greater reality of Christ's sacrifice.  Continuing to practice sacrifices would be a mockery of Calvary.  No such statement is made about instruments.  The analogy doesn't carry over.



Bitteroot said:


> Liberalism should only be in our hearts when it comes to giving of ourselves.  In every other aspect, it has and will continue to be the downfall of nations, men, and religion.



Logical fallacies of Equivocation and questionable cause.  While I am both conservative in my politics and doctrine and oppose so called "liberalism" in both, this is not a legitimate argument against the use of instruments.



Ronnie T said:


> I'm also reminded that the early church is what I should represent today in my life and in the life of those God has assigned me to.
> I believe it's my responsibility to be like that church.  I need to care what the New Testament 1st century church did.



The early church had many problems as evidence by Paul's Epistles.  We are not to imitate everything that the early church did, as you well know.  You also have to understand the cultural context of the first century church and recognize that you are ministering in a completely different cultural context.  I appreciate the idea of stepping back and asking is our worship pleasing to God.  I also appreciate looking to church tradition as a helpful guide.  But, some things can be taken too far, and you can begin worrying about tithing dill and cumin but lose sight of the weightier matters.


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## hayseed_theology (Mar 1, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> And an Elder was holding a harp that symbolized something.



The clear implication is that it is involved in the worship of God.  They are holding it while they worship God.




Ronnie T said:


> As I said:  There is absolutely no mention in the New Testament of musical instrument being used in the worship of God.



See Revelation 15.  They have harps given to them by God, and they are singing praises to God.  Does that one not count?


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## huntmore (Mar 1, 2011)

Ronnie T Are you suggesting that we do all things like they did in the old days?


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## Ronnie T (Mar 2, 2011)

huntmore said:


> Ronnie T Are you suggesting that we do all things like they did in the old days?



I'm not suggesting anything.

We will all do what we chose to do.


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## whome (Mar 2, 2011)

It's interesting to me that the use of instrumental music was so vehemently opposed in early church history. I wonder why that was? It's definitely fact that can not be refuted.


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## formula1 (Mar 2, 2011)

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> Those are great verses that tell us a lot about how important a pure heart is.
> But I would advise a person not to ever trust their heart unless it leads them right back to God.
> 
> Prov 28:26  He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
> ...



Good advice Ronnie! Not a single scripture I used pointed to the deceitful heart you mentioned.

A pure heart can lead nowhere else but God as its very motive is to please the Father! 

This entire post about music and worship has been really interesting to see different thoughts and the way folks approach their point of view.  My heart is still taking me back to this passage of scripture:

1 Cor 10:31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.  

A judgement for music or not, intruments or not, dance or not, and all things can be made with the honest 'smell' test against this scripture. If it is for God's Glory!!!


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## Ronnie T (Mar 2, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Good advice Ronnie! Not a single scripture I used pointed to the deceitful heart you mentioned.
> You're right. I was just pointed out that the heart has many uses within us, but it's a very dangerous thing to follow, unless a person is well seated in God's will.
> 
> A pure heart can lead nowhere else but God as its very motive is to please the Father!
> ...



I couldn't agree more.  All for the glorifying of God.

It's been interesting and I appreciate everyone putting up with my thoughts.


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## Bitteroot (Mar 2, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Yes, the moral decline and acceptance of such things as gay pastors/clergy, etc., is a bitter root in the american church.




Hey don't drag me into that I've got enough problems keeping my mandolin and fiddle out of the worship service...


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## StriperAddict (Mar 2, 2011)

*Thanks for the input, ya'll.   NHF....!*



Ronnie T said:


> It's been interesting and I appreciate everyone putting up with my thoughts.


You have a unique way of "streching our faith", brother   !! 
Thanks for putting up with mine, too 



Bitteroot said:


> Hey don't drag me into that I've got enough problems keeping my mandolin and fiddle out of the worship service...


 
Bring 'em   !!

(sorry folks, I couldn't resist  )


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## Spotlite (Mar 4, 2011)

Some of the best services we have ever had involved a great deal of music / worship.

Some of you could find something wrong with a $100 bill


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## hayseed_theology (Mar 4, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> Some of you could find something wrong with a $100 bill



Send me a few for inspection, and I'll tell ya what's wrong with it.


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## idsman75 (Mar 29, 2011)

Hymns are the handmaiden of theology.  I didn't say that.  Someone else did but I can't remember who.  There's so much theology in so many traditional church hymns.  You can research the history behind those hymns and their writers fairly easily with the internet today.  Some of the stories behind the songs are pretty powerful.

On that same note, it's SUPER tough for me to connect with the contemporary stuff which seems really light on meaning and depth and heavy on feel-good-isms.  

There are certain hymns in our church hymnal that will not be sung in our church due to certain conflicts with scripture.  Therefore, both traditional hymns and contemporary music can get it wrong.  

My dad never appeared to "get into it" and still doesn't appear to today.  However, I know that the words are going through his mind as he sings quietly.  Those words and their meaning are sinking in no matter how many hundreds or thousands of times he's heard a song.  

I don't know how rooted you are in what you believe and how well you know why you believe what you believe.  That's between you and God.  However, I'd suggest you pay attention to the words and compare them to what you believe.  When we sing or listen to music actively, we worship with our hearts.  That's where worship occurs.  

Remember, the prayers and incense of hypocrites are a STENCH in the nostrils of the Lord.  Just because you're not rolling around in the aisles during church music doesn't mean you're somehow being a bad Christian.  It doesn't mean somehow that the Holy Spirit isn't in your heart.

P.S.  Show me a church that doesn't allow musical instruments of any kind.  I'll attend and show you another aspect of their worship that is not Biblical.  Comparing the conditioning of our hearts to accept musical instruments to the acceptance of homosexuality is preposterous.  The worst slipper-slope fallacious kind of argument I've heard regarding worship.


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## SneekEE (Mar 29, 2011)

My only standard for music is that it bring glory to God, be about Him, and biblical. Personaly I enjoy the old old old stuff, and i am young, but like the new stuff also. But one thing I hate to hear is some one from a church that does not play traditional hymnal type music, say to me, well, we only play praise and worship music. When i sing Nothing but the blood, The old rugged cross, ect ect, let me inform you I am praising and worshiping and that too is praise and worship music. Who decided that only contemparary music is considered to be praise and worship? And if you are only singing praise and worship music, and consider your style to be somthing differant than mine, why do you not think the old stuff is praise and worship music? Before praise and worship music started, were christians not praising and worshiping God through there singing? just a thought.


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## Ezelleelks (Mar 30, 2011)

The scriptures say to Sing, we should remember that God is the audience and not us. We are to be pleasing to him and not us. We are to offer unto him our worship and he has told us how to worship. When you think you have the right to change worship, think about Nadab and Abihu. I'm not changing what God instituted in the New Testament. But that's just me speaking.


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