# Good Bye, QU



## zzweims (Feb 1, 2013)

I just heard that Quail Unlimited is shutting it's doors permanently and will cease to exist.  Such a shame.


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## redneck_billcollector (Feb 1, 2013)

I was wondering, the QU Celeb hunt was called the QA (quail albany) hunt this year.


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## moore0661 (Feb 1, 2013)

It's sad, but quail hunting is a dying sport.  Farming practices and public access to land doomed the sport 40 years ago.  It's going to be hard for any organization to gain a foothold when the younger generations never grew up hunting wild quail and have no desire to do so.


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## redneck_billcollector (Feb 1, 2013)

moore0661 said:


> It's sad, but quail hunting is a dying sport.  Farming practices and public access to land doomed the sport 40 years ago.  It's going to be hard for any organization to gain a foothold when the younger generations never grew up hunting wild quail and have no desire to do so.



I agree to a large extent, hence my earlier thread (a year or so ago) about the state stocking some areas on public land with "catch and release" birds like they do in many other states so it is worth while for people to keep bird dogs and kids can be introduced to bird hunting.


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## waddler (Feb 1, 2013)

moore0661 said:


> It's sad, but quail hunting is a dying sport.  Farming practices and public access to land doomed the sport 40 years ago.  It's going to be hard for any organization to gain a foothold when the younger generations never grew up hunting wild quail and have no desire to do so.



I believe they have the DESIRE , but how can they experience it? Times change. I am thinking about training one of my Brits to hunt squirrels.


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## Jim P (Feb 1, 2013)

I don't it has anything to do with hunting, I think a bunch of it is because people don't trust QU after what happened.


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## moore0661 (Feb 1, 2013)

Jim P said:


> I don't it has anything to do with hunting, I think a bunch of it is because people don't trust QU after what happened.



Care to enlighten us Jim?  I don't follow the organization and we don't have a local chapter where I live.


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## coachdoug87 (Feb 1, 2013)

Could it partly be that Quail forever was attracting some
who used to be in Qu? I am really glad somebody besides
me thinks they should release quail. I think a lot of people
would get birds dogs. I think released quail are closer
to the real thing than hatchery raised trout.


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## OILMAN (Feb 1, 2013)

I am relatively young, 26, and never quail hunted until 2011. Since that first hunt, I have invited a lot of friends to hunt with me and lately I have read everything I can get my hands on to about quail habitat and restoration. I only have the time/money to chase put and take quail, but I love being out there. 
  The only bird hunting my family did growing up was dove hunting- and only the first couple of weekends until bow season started. I'm sure this is typical of most sportsman in Georgia. However, virtually every other sportsman my age who I come in contact with has an interest in quail hunting. Their primary deterrent is cost. 
 I wouldn't have gotten into quail hunting if I did not have a dog. The  high cost of guided hunts would have prevented me from spending the money- and I am single with disposable income and blessed to have a job that pays really well. 
  Growing up, my dad, brother, and I would have quail hunted if the state offered hunts on released birds. We attempted to find quail a few times, but only as a mixed bag hunt where rabbits and squirrel were our primary targets, and we walked the woods looking for them. If Georgia seriously committed to a quail stocking program, interest would follow, it might take a few years, but plenty of people would get into it, provided a reasonable opportunity to harvest multiple quail. 
 I had a great interest in quail hunting growing up, but no one to take me and my parents did not have the means to justify expensive hunts. Had a stocking program existed, we would have gone out and tried it- and maybe even gotten a dog. The best long term solution is that people who are passionate about quail hunting open their lands, and their wallets and invite others to partake in the sport. Until a substantial number of quail hunters are willing to do this, I doubt that we will have a realistic shot at widespread habitat restoration and a smaller chance of a quail stocking program.


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## AL trout bum (Feb 1, 2013)

OILMAN said:


> Their primary deterrent is cost.



Bingo!!!! That was mine until people like a fishing buddy of mine and SamH offered to take me for just the price of birds. I know people have to make a living, but you're going to spend on average ~$400-500 for a HALF-DAY quail hunt at plantations. I could see that for a full day and somewhere more around $200 or less for half day. However, I am brand new to the sport and really have no clue or basis for my argument other than what I "would" pay. 


On the QU thing, I also have no clue what happened there, but QF is around and going strong right? So maybe not all is lost.


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## coveyrise90 (Feb 2, 2013)

I hate that QU couldn't make it. But I am glad to see them throw their support behind Quail Forever. I guess we know where we need to refocus. 

But I've said it before and I'll say it again. It matters not which organization you're a part of... Quail Unlimited or Quail Forever. The local chapter is where it all happens and the leadership of each chapter will dictate that chapter's success.... not the logo on their shirts.

Bill mentioned in his letter that QF will be announcing something soon... wonder what it'll be.

Adam


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## coveyrise90 (Feb 2, 2013)

So Jay, they are still going to have a celebrity hunt????

Adam


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## redneck_billcollector (Feb 2, 2013)

http://www.walb.com/story/20937018/quail-unlimited-to-cease-operations

Adam, the above is probably what Bill was eluding to...a press conference Monday.  As for the Celeb Hunt, I am assuming they will, it was not called the QU Hunt this year but the QA Hunt for Quail Albany.  If QF takes over the hunt I don't know how long it will last because they are philosophically against any release of birds and the biggest participants in it now are the release plantations.  Some serious fence mending will need to be done with the wild bird plantations. There are no wild bird plantations that take part in the event any more even though they were the main ones involved back in the earlier days of the hunt.  I know some of the owners I have talked with say that QU started taking them for granted and stopped treating them well when a day of wagon drawn hunting wild birds was worth more than jeep hunts for prereleased birds. Apparently the commercial operations started to get a larger say so and kind of "took over"(Bill started getting heavily involved about that time).

I have hunted in it a few times during the time when wild bird, private operations were the back bone and it was a truely exceptional experience and I have hunted on one of the commercial operations when they started to grow in influence...the difference was night and day. While the commercial operation hunt was nice it could not compare to the ambiance of the wild bird, mule drawn wagon and horse hunt with a 4 course picnic in the field off of fine china, crystal and silver flat ware.  (It wasn't because I was rich or anything, I dated/basically lived with a wild bird plantation owner at the time so got the "owner" benefits)

Rumor was Safari Club International was taking over QU and was going to continue with the hunt,,,however, in light of the news yesterday I don't know if that was the truth or just a rumor.  I have tried to talk to Bill yesterday but I got no answer..... I know our local hospital authority/Phoebe Putney Hospital (aka "the hospital that ate sowega") now owns Potter Community Center where QU was supposed to move to and which was donated to Dougherty Co. for the purposes of field trials by the Potters, one of the former owners of Blue Springs Plantation.  They also own the building where QU was located as of yesterday.  I know Bill's momma was active with the hospital authority for years so I don't know if there is  a connection.

I like Bill and have known him my whole life (we grew up together, even went to kindergarten together), however, I am friends also with Dr. Greene one of the former owners of Wynnfield and I have heard some things that do trouble me.  If the Albany Chamber takes over the hunt I have to wonder what the quality will be due to various changes towards the donations of hunts, prizes, and other sundry items and the IRS.....Ideally someone like Tall Timbers or some other conservation organization will take over or maybe even the - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - (Wild Turkey Federation.....apparently the acronym is bad) and the quality of the properties "donated" will take off and return to how it was in days gone by.  A truely potential wild card could be Ted Turner...he now owns Nonami Plantation (which was once the part of Blue Springs in Dougherty Co.) and he used to be a participant celeb years ago along with a good chunk of the Braves if I remember correctly.  If somehow he were to get involved all might not be lost....but I just don't know.

Ideally Tall Timbers would take over and that would give an "in" to alot of the wild bird properties that they have influence with but I am just speculating and wishing on that issue......of course if that happens the hunt could possibly move to Thomasville (horror of horrors).

A very good friend of mine and a sometime hunting partner of mine, Bo Henry, seemed to be really involved with the hunt this year and I might go see him after I get out of the woods today and talk with him about the situation (he is one of albany's leading entreprenuers).  I imagine he has an idea with what is going to happen.

I don't know if the above answers your question Adam, maybe I will have more information tonight, if not I will soon because I am supposed to go hunting with Bo the first monday I don't have court this year.........(did not have it MLK day but had appointments all day).


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## redneck_billcollector (Feb 2, 2013)

coachdoug87 said:


> Could it partly be that Quail forever was attracting some
> who used to be in Qu? I am really glad somebody besides
> me thinks they should release quail. I think a lot of people
> would get birds dogs. I think released quail are closer
> to the real thing than hatchery raised trout.



I don't think QF moving in is the issue, there were some serious mismanagement of moneys issues a couple of years back and QU went broke.  I should point out that QF is generally against any state program involving "put and take" birds even in places that wouldn't sustain a continued population of wild quail (think clear cut areas on central GA wmas).

My attitude towards put and take birds is that you give access to more people, more bird dogs are purchased, more people become quail hunters, more quail hunters get involved at the DNR forums, more quail hunters involved in the "politics" of game management means more dollars for quail from state, which leads to more public land wild birds in suitable habitat, which leads to .....you got it, even more wild eyed quail hunters that long for more wild birds........

Just like all those North GA trout fishermen that cut their teeth on put and take trout now get more wild trout streams and management for wild trout in GA......There are more wild trout available to fly fisherman in GA now (I argue because of a kids catching put and take trout growing up to be trout crazy) than there were when I caught my first catch and release trout on canned corn way back in the early 70s when visiting kinfolk in N GA.  It is now not hard at all to find wild brookies in N GA. I know of a number of easy accessable streams where that is all you will catch on flies...me, a child of the SOWEGA piney woods and swamps who has never been a trout fanatic (though I do go fishing for them a couple to few times a year) can go do it now.....

Just think about it.....more metro Atlanta bird dog owners could also have an impact on the ruffed grouse in GA too....even us chasers of the "King" of game birds thinks about going up to the yankee part of the state to try our luck on those birds from time to time....all they would need to do is convince the NFS to allow some small scale clear cutting in the N. GA mountains and .....there will be grouse.


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## moore0661 (Feb 2, 2013)

redneck_billcollector said:


> I don't think QF moving in is the issue, there were some serious mismanagement of moneys issues a couple of years back and QU went broke.  I should point out that QF is generally against any state program involving "put and take" birds even in places that wouldn't sustain a continued population of wild quail (think clear cut areas on central GA wmas).
> 
> My attitude towards put and take birds is that you give access to more people, more bird dogs are purchased, more people become quail hunters, more quail hunters get involved at the DNR forums, more quail hunters involved in the "politics" of game management means more dollars for quail from state, which leads to more public land wild birds in suitable habitat, which leads to .....you got it, even more wild eyed quail hunters that long for more wild birds........
> 
> ...



You make some good points, and I agree that released birds would be a step in the right direction, but I don't know if we can fix the trend the sport has taken in the past 40 years without some drastic changes in land use and public access.  

Farm subsidies have created a modern day plantation owners who are able to control vast amounts of land with taxpayer money.  We haven't had this much farm land controled by so few since before the civil war.  Coupled with the lack of federal land in the eastern United States, and you have the recipie for a dying sport.  

Our only hope is out west where the public still has access to land and urban sprawl hasn't taken over yet.  But even this is only a few decades away from ceasing to exist.  Times change.  It's sad to see what the sport is becoming.  Where only a few can enjoy it.  Dove hunting will go the same route without some drastic change in public acess to land.


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## redneck_billcollector (Feb 2, 2013)

Well, after a conversation with an individual who I would imagine is in the know......QF is gonna take over the reigns of QU (or maybe just the Celeb hunt).  If that is the case it makes me wonder about the future of public land quail hunting in the state of GA.  The only hope is going to be quota systems on Elmodel, Silver Lake, Albany Nursery (already quota), Chickasawhatchee and maybe Mayhaw.  I know they are a great conservation group but.....the wild bird or no bird stance they take makes me wonder..........


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## coachdoug87 (Feb 2, 2013)

I do not like the wild or nothing attitude. I agree with Bill collector.
If we create more opportunities to shoot released birds, we will
Increase the number of hunters and then eventually there would
Be more pressure to create wild bird habitat. AS A teacher, I have
found that kids will get interested if they actually find out bird hunting exists in this state. I also think the walking field trials are
an inexpensive way to enjoy dogs and something you can get kids
involved with.


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## 28gage (Feb 2, 2013)

Not sure what you all mean but releasing pen raised birds on good quail land is a big mistake.  For years I hunted on the Barry place SE of Medicene Lodge Ks.  It was the best bird lease I have ever been on.  About 3K acres of plum thickets and sand hills and covered up with birds even the off years.  It sold about 7 years ago and the new owners idea of a quail hunt was to buy several hundred birds and dump them in the center of the place and then shot till they ran out of shells.  These throw down birds brought every kind of sickness you can imagine and today there isn't a wild bird on the place.   Don Gerstner a shooting dog trainer who ran dogs on the the Berry for 50 years gave me the news several weeks ago when we were planning a hunt for this fall.  Now there are folks who feed their birds antibiotics etc and have relatively clean birds, but releaseing tame birds on a good piece of land is not something I'd recomend if your plan is to someday have a huntable population of wild birds there..


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## moore0661 (Feb 3, 2013)

28gage said:


> Not sure what you all mean but releasing pen raised birds on good quail land is a big mistake.  For years I hunted on the Barry place SE of Medicene Lodge Ks.  It was the best bird lease I have ever been on.  About 3K acres of plum thickets and sand hills and covered up with birds even the off years.  It sold about 7 years ago and the new owners idea of a quail hunt was to buy several hundred birds and dump them in the center of the place and then shot till they ran out of shells.  These throw down birds brought every kind of sickness you can imagine and today there isn't a wild bird on the place.   Don Gerstner a shooting dog trainer who ran dogs on the the Berry for 50 years gave me the news several weeks ago when we were planning a hunt for this fall.  Now there are folks who feed their birds antibiotics etc and have relatively clean birds, but releaseing tame birds on a good piece of land is not something I'd recomend if your plan is to someday have a huntable population of wild birds there..



I think he was referring to catch and realese of wild birds and not pen raised quail.  But even so, if we're serious about growing the sport, that option has to be put on the table.  The sport is dying in front of us and at this point we can't abandon an idea over every percieved negitive.  The status quo obviously isn't working.


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## 28gage (Feb 3, 2013)

moore0661 said:


> I think he was referring to catch and realese of wild birds and not pen raised quail.  But even so, if we're serious about growing the sport, that option has to be put on the table.  The sport is dying in front of us and at this point we can't abandon an idea over every percieved negitive.  The status quo obviously isn't working.



Well that's a different deal but tell me in an environment of decreasing quail numbers where do we get the birds to transplant? I guess my problem with concept is that the end game should a sustainable bird population in areas void of birds now.  I'm not sure how trapping a covey only to release them to be shot by numbers of "new" hunters and old solves the problem of habitat loss.  I think it's going to take a state wide interest in giving the birds a place to survive and prosper.  Don't get me wrong, I'm for anything that will bring back the numbers that will energize the old and new hunters and help stabilize the sport we all love.  I just think that the problem of good contigious bird habitat is the area that cries for a solution.  Moving coveys to good habitat is fine if they are left to propagate and not be chased around the following season after the move.  Am I looking at the process incorectly?


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## moore0661 (Feb 3, 2013)

28gage said:


> Well that's a different deal but tell me in an environment of decreasing quail numbers where do we get the birds to transplant? I guess my problem with concept is that the end game should a sustainable bird population in areas void of birds now.  I'm not sure how trapping a covey only to release them to be shot by numbers of "new" hunters and old solves the problem of habitat loss.  I think it's going to take a state wide interest in giving the birds a place to survive and prosper.  Don't get me wrong, I'm for anything that will bring back the numbers that will energize the old and new hunters and help stabilize the sport we all love.  I just think that the problem of good contagious bird habitat is the area that cries for a solution.  Moving coveys to good habitat is fine if they are left to propagate and not be chased around the following season after the move.  Am I looking at the process incorectly?



No, what your saying makes sense.  I just don't think there is much we can do about this issue without more public land, and that probably ain't happeing in Georgia.  There's only so much you can do with a few thousand acres here and there.  We need hundreds of thousands of acres of suitable habitat in contiuous blocks to have an affect on the wild bird population.  Convincing the farmers to bring back hedge rows would be a great start.


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## coachdoug87 (Feb 3, 2013)

Nobody in their right mind would suggest turning loose
a bunch of pen raised birds where there are wild quail.
I am talking about areas of our state where there are
no birds at all. I think releasing birds in those areas would
Result in more people owning dogs and that means more
Public pressure on the DNR to manage more places. At
That point, captured wild quail would be released. I never
saw a wild turkey until I was grown, and now we have
a decent population. A generation before that, deer were
Reintroduced to the mountains.  We are just looking for
some kind of way to save the sport in this area.


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## 28gage (Feb 3, 2013)

I understand,  they are also trying in east Texas, eastern Kansas, alot of Mo. but the problem is land use.  When I left Ga in 2004 the number of small farms was decreasing at an alarming rate, folks were farming trees instead.  The problem is land use.  Quail are a delecate species, much more so than turkey and deer.  Deer can adjust to almost anything but the gun, quail need specific habitat and quite a bit of it.  And even when they have it as they do in west Tx. a drought or preditors can upset the balance in a big way.  And the other problem is that reclamation is expensive and most states fish and wildlife departments don't have the money or would rather spend it for deer etc as they are easier to help and still generate revenue for the state.  Kansas is a prime example of that.  I hope your plan is workable but without solid reclamation efforts I'm not sure it's the answer.

All you have to do is look at the private plantations around Leesburg.  They are owned by some monied folks form the NE and they have spent literaly $100s of thousands on growing quail.  The best example I can give you is a trip I made to Robin Gates kennels to drop off a couple of dogs for the trip north. Got lost and found myself looking at a house right out of gone with the wind.  Called Robin to get directions and all I could hear was quail whistling.  Asked robin if they were pen raised birds and he said no, all wild.  Not sure the state is ready to spend that kind of money.  Again it will take land owners that care to start the process and do the things that the state can't afford to.


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## BirdNut (Feb 3, 2013)

Its a shame.  Any org will have an uphill battle I fear.  Landscape level eradication of fescue and bermuda would be necessary, and tree farms would need be to be stocked at much lesser rates than they are today, coupled with judicious use of fire.  The problem is these things hit folks in the pocket book, and the poor quail is like dog versus car...the car always wins.  Quail were once the accidental by product of how we farmed, but this is no longer true and probably never will be again.  Mexico is covered up in bobwhites, but guess what, No fescue and very little bermuda-only bunchgrass pasturage (I would say native grass, but they do plant buffle grass which is non native, but has a seed and cover for the birds, plus open understory), low cattle stocking rates, massive grain (milo) agriculture, and no slash/loblolly pine trees, and every fenceline is 5-15 yards wide and filled with food and woody cover.   And yes they do have fire ants, tons of predators, and they spray nasty chemicals like there's no tomorrow so it aint the usual suspects that people want you to believe.


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## coveyrise (Feb 3, 2013)

Shame that QU never lived up to all the hype. I knew it was never going to make it when I sent in a $150 donation to the"new" QU and never even got a thank you note. People quit caring about organizations when they quit caring about their supporters. 
Here is my 2 cents worth on the quail situation on our public land. Most of the state and federal wildlife departments are facing more and more budget cuts every year. To say that some are broke would be close to the truth. When is the last time our license and wma stamps have had an increase.? To me it is past time even if its a few bucks. Use all the extra revenue to work on our public lands.
Also when is the last time you or anybody you know has volunteered their time to help out on our public lands? I do it all the time.The DNR in Fla. and Ga. and also the federal F&W Service know that I will never say no when they call. You don't have to be an expert on anything even if it is picking up trash at a campsite on a WMA and freeing up time for workers to do other things every little bit helps. This land belongs to you. Not the goverment. Don't you want to take better care of whats yours?
Sit down and write the DNR and tell them what your concerns are. If they don't know, then they can't correct them.
On quail conservation groups;
There is only one true quail conservation group in my opinion and that Is Tall Timbers. Knowone has worked harder for quail hunters on private and PUBLIC land than Tall Timbers. They have ongoing projects on many of our national forest and state forest that benefits our public land. No hype, just research backed up by years of data. Even after stealing articles from TT for their magazine, QU did'nt have the class to mention them in their final letter.


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## kingofcool (Feb 4, 2013)

redneck_billcollector said:


> I don't think QF moving in is the issue, there were some serious mismanagement of moneys issues a couple of years back and QU went broke.  I should point out that QF is generally against any state program involving "put and take" birds even in places that wouldn't sustain a continued population of wild quail (think clear cut areas on central GA wmas).
> 
> My attitude towards put and take birds is that you give access to more people, more bird dogs are purchased, more people become quail hunters, more quail hunters get involved at the DNR forums, more quail hunters involved in the "politics" of game management means more dollars for quail from state, which leads to more public land wild birds in suitable habitat, which leads to .....you got it, even more wild eyed quail hunters that long for more wild birds........
> 
> ...



This makes the most sense to me.

I think increasing license fees is a start, too.

I don't know how this could effect hunting land but there is a new-ish conservation easement tax credit in Georgia.  Would be nice if lands in that program could be public or semi-public.  Might entice landowners (including maybe some timber companies) to put up some land.


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## redneck_billcollector (Feb 4, 2013)

Well the only way we are going to have any hunting for quail worth partaking in on public land is going to have to be put and take or quota system on all the WMAs that have wild populations and decent habitat.  I hunt most of the WMAs in sowega that have decent quail habitat and you can find birds from time to time....however those birds are becoming few and far between.  People hunting singles or the same coveys getting hunted a couple of times a week with no rest leads to the end of that covey.   With the quota system you are not going to generate much intrests for people who would like to bird hunt but don't have land, heck, even those with dogs are not going to like that...simply because your public land access is going to be cut to once a season if you are lucky....

I am not saying release birds on places like Silver Lake or other WMAs that have decent habitat...make those quota if need be, but there are thousands upon thousands of acres of WMA (think Oaky Woods, Ocmulgee, etc...) land that is recently clear cut or in the first couple of years of sucession and those places would be ideal for put and take birds....Once the pine plantations reach 4 or 5 years of age, wild birds won't be there and you wouldn't need to put stocked birds...but for those 4 or so years you have bird hunting where otherwise you wouldn't.  

As for QU, it is official QF took over as of today...or at least that is what Bill is saying at the conference held this morning.


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## coveyrise (Feb 4, 2013)

Tall Timbers and QF have a good working relationship. I think good things will happen in the future but only if the few quail hunters still around get involved. There are more mountain bikers on WMA's than quail hunters in this day and time. It woul not take that much to turn fair habitat into good. Usually all it would take is a few more fire breaks to split the property up a little more. Habitat is not the problem as much as size of the burns they do on it.
There is over a million acres of public land within an hour drive of my house. This year I have located plenty of wild coveys on this land. Everytime I go out I explore new land and find new coveys. The birds are there. Just finding the time to look over all the land in some of these massive areas is difficult to find. On some of the places I don't believe the quail have ever seen a human.


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## 28gage (Feb 4, 2013)

redneck_billcollector said:


> Well the only way we are going to have any hunting for quail worth partaking in on public land is going to have to be put and take or quota system on all the WMAs that have wild populations and decent habitat.  I hunt most of the WMAs in sowega that have decent quail habitat and you can find birds from time to time....however those birds are becoming few and far between.  People hunting singles or the same coveys getting hunted a couple of times a week with no rest leads to the end of that covey.   With the quota system you are not going to generate much intrests for people who would like to bird hunt but don't have land, heck, even those with dogs are not going to like that...simply because your public land access is going to be cut to once a season if you are lucky....
> 
> I am not saying release birds on places like Silver Lake or other WMAs that have decent habitat...make those quota if need be, but there are thousands upon thousands of acres of WMA (think Oaky Woods, Ocmulgee, etc...) land that is recently clear cut or in the first couple of years of sucession and those places would be ideal for put and take birds....Once the pine plantations reach 4 or 5 years of age, wild birds won't be there and you wouldn't need to put stocked birds...but for those 4 or so years you have bird hunting where otherwise you wouldn't.
> 
> As for QU, it is official QF took over as of today...or at least that is what Bill is saying at the conference held this morning.



I guess I'm slow but are put and take birds pen raised?  And if so why would you put them at  Ocmulgee, because unless things have changed since I left in 2004(and I'm sure they have) my best chance at wild birds was at Ocmulgee and West Point.


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## OrlandoBrent (Feb 4, 2013)

I haven't hunted quail since my youth in the 70s, but working to restore the habitat on the Missouri family farm provides me with a great excuse to spend time with my dad. It's only 140 acres, but there are some wild quail on it. I'm planning to head there later this week to do some winter work and later in the Spring to plant some thickets. I guess it's time to pony up and join QF and TT.

I agree that the sport will only be rejuvenated when there are more quail and it's easier to for the regular Joe to go hunt them. MO doesn't allow release of non-wild birds, so we have to really invest in the habitat. That is good in the long run, but only if the neighbors do so also. 

It's pretty easy to figure out the value/acre to grow trees, graze cattle, or grow crops depending upon the region and the soil. I wonder what the value/acre one could capture running a wild quail plantation? I realize there is some dual use, but can you make up for the lose of tree/grain/cattle productivity with day/season leases?


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## coveyrise (Feb 4, 2013)

OrlandoBrent said:


> I haven't hunted quail since my youth in the 70s, but working to restore the habitat on the Missouri family farm provides me with a great excuse to spend time with my dad. It's only 140 acres, but there are some wild quail on it. I'm planning to head there later this week to do some winter work and later in the Spring to plant some thickets. I guess it's time to pony up and join QF and TT.
> 
> I agree that the sport will only be rejuvenated when there are more quail and it's easier to for the regular Joe to go hunt them. MO doesn't allow release of non-wild birds, so we have to really invest in the habitat. That is good in the long run, but only if the neighbors do so also.
> 
> It's pretty easy to figure out the value/acre to grow trees, graze cattle, or grow crops depending upon the region and the soil. I wonder what the value/acre one could capture running a wild quail plantation? I realize there is some dual use, but can you make up for the lose of tree/grain/cattle productivity with day/season leases?



Has it gotten any easier to burn in Mo than it used to be? I remember some parts of the state you could not burn at all. Tough to manage for quail without fire.


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## 28gage (Feb 4, 2013)

No it really hasn't, with this 5 year drought we've had wild fire problems from NM through Ks and Okla, and of course through out Tx.  All the surrounding states have tightened up on any kind of burning.


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## redneck_billcollector (Feb 4, 2013)

28gage said:


> I guess I'm slow but are put and take birds pen raised?  And if so why would you put them at  Ocmulgee, because unless things have changed since I left in 2004(and I'm sure they have) my best chance at wild birds was at Ocmulgee and West Point.



I was talking about the clear cuts.....the habitat is only good for  few years and then it is no good and wild birds won't survive in thick pine plantations.  Ocmulgee actually has a number of put and take operations that border it where the pines are not clear cut and open.  On the WMA though, you have plantations for clear cutting or river swamp and creek bottoms....neither are the best for quail habitat.  You might have a covey or two in a large clear cut block but that means one or maybe two people can hunt them before they are gone.  I know a hunter or two can find some birds on those clear cuts hunting hard all day, but that isn't going to lead to many new bird hunters.  And that habitat is fleeting....in other words it is a short term habitat.  Lots of states do "put and take" birds, to include quail and they have hunters that utilize the resource.  We, as a state, have just a few WMAs with decent quail habitat and perminate populations of wild birds....but they can not sustain much hunting pressure.  I guess we have to make the choice....little if no decent public access for birds or go quota on the good WMAs and offer put and take hunting on all other WMAs that have temporary habitat in the form of clear cuts and young pine plantations.


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## BirdNut (Feb 4, 2013)

I wonder if put and take can be made to work without substantial investment in habitat work.  In other words, I think the birds will die of starvation and maybe predation in the first week.  The analogy of trout is good, but I think the streams have the food base to support fish, just for whatever reason, not the breeding requirements.  I may be wrong-I have been before.


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## muckalee (Feb 4, 2013)

Put and take WILL NOT WORK on public land unless you do such a small quota system that the state will not go for it because there would be so few hunters allowed.  It would not justify the cost.  
Guys, just go look in to the waterfowler forum and comments about the crowded situations duck hunters face on public land.  Now I envision a 500 acre cut over set up with released birds.  Saturday morning rolls around and lo and behold there are 5 trucks parked at the entrance ready to go hunting.  Sounds like something..... but it aint fun. Can you imagine the mayhem.


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## redneck_billcollector (Feb 4, 2013)

muckalee said:


> Put and take WILL NOT WORK on public land unless you do such a small quota system that the state will not go for it because there would be so few hunters allowed.  It would not justify the cost.
> Guys, just go look in to the waterfowler forum and comments about the crowded situations duck hunters face on public land.  Now I envision a 500 acre cut over set up with released birds.  Saturday morning rolls around and lo and behold there are 5 trucks parked at the entrance ready to go hunting.  Sounds like something..... but it aint fun. Can you imagine the mayhem.



They do put and take in most eastern states for both quail and pheasant....and according to the agencies in the states where they do it.....it works.  Delaware has a decent program so does Pennsylvania...New York, the list goes on.  On opening weekend they say it can be hectic....but after that....We have dove shoots on public land so why not get a number of put and release areas.

This is not some idea that I have dreamed up, more states do it than not....I was suprised at the number of states that do it and have been doing it for years.  When they try to cut back on it, the bird dog owners raise cane.


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## redneck_billcollector (Feb 4, 2013)

BirdNut said:


> I wonder if put and take can be made to work without substantial investment in habitat work.  In other words, I think the birds will die of starvation and maybe predation in the first week.  The analogy of trout is good, but I think the streams have the food base to support fish, just for whatever reason, not the breeding requirements.  I may be wrong-I have been before.



I guess they could do like the big wild bird places do...broadcast corn, sorgrum or some other scratch feed once a week.  I imagine a clear cut has enough weed seed (especially rag weed) to help carry them over between feedings.


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## coveyrise90 (Feb 4, 2013)

I think areas set aside for regular stocking will greatly aid in getting youth started in the sport. And that is CRUCIAL for the continuation of our sport. 

Here's are just a few of the states that stock WMAs (not all WMAs) with pheasant and quail.

Michigan
Ohio
Illinois
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Iowa
Indiana
New York
New Jersey
Maryland
Pensylvania

And there are many more.

IMO, This is not an answer to a declining quail population but merely a way to get new hunters interested... which hopefully will mean more interest (and $$$) for wild quail and wild quail habitat.


As for QU and QF, Bill Bowles has been hired by Quail Forever as the Director of the SE states. The current (or "previous") QU headquarters WILL remain open and serve as the new SE headquarters for Quail Forever. Here is the article and interview posted on the Albany Herald website.

http://www.albanyherald.com/news/2013/feb/04/quail-forever-hires-bowles-qu-staff/

I wonder what will be the future of the Celebrity Hunt. QU created another organization, Quail Albany, to run the hunt. But will it be associated with QF? 

Adam


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## coachdoug87 (Feb 4, 2013)

All these are good points. ONE more thing I would
like to try is an extra fee to hunt these quail areas. It
could be similar to a big game stamp. I like the idea
of trying pheasants,too. I also agree with the comment
about land use changes. Too much pasture land and
Too much mature forest. I have been saying for years
I was going to field trial.  It may finally be time.


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## redneck_billcollector (Feb 4, 2013)

coveyrise90 said:


> As for QU and QF, Bill Bowles has been hired by Quail Forever as the Director of the SE states. The current (or "previous") QU headquarters WILL remain open and serve as the new SE headquarters for Quail Forever. Here is the article and interview posted on the Albany Herald website.
> 
> http://www.albanyherald.com/news/2013/feb/04/quail-forever-hires-bowles-qu-staff/
> 
> ...



I don't know, I know some people associated with the hunt are not happy about what is going on.  I know some business men and women that are worrying also about getting paid for what they did this last go round. They are beginning to wonder if they are going to get paid, if they don't this will probably be the last hunt........I hope it isn't but bad business is bad business.

I am still trying to figure Phoebe Putney's (the hospital that ate sowega)  part in all this....it truely makes no sense.


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## coveyrise (Feb 4, 2013)

Big mistake. Should have started with a clean slate. I don't trust anyone that had there hand in the QU cookie jar. I know he did as good as he could but I have had a bad experience with the whole QU thing. Wished they would have hired a true wild bird hunter to run a organization like Quail Forever.


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## muckalee (Feb 4, 2013)

coveyrise90 said:


> I think areas set aside for regular stocking will greatly aid in getting youth started in the sport. And that is CRUCIAL for the continuation of our sport.
> 
> Here's are just a few of the states that stock WMAs (not all WMAs) with pheasant and quail.
> 
> ...


On the states that do this.....I moved my son to Naperville Illinois around Christmas.  Saw one of those state lands in Illinois.  From the highway I could see 4 different groups of hunters in one field and probably saw another 3 in the distance.  Unh, Unh, not for me.....  And this was a week day.


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## redneck_billcollector (Feb 4, 2013)

muckalee said:


> On the states that do this.....I moved my son to Naperville Illinois around Christmas.  Saw one of those state lands in Illinois.  From the highway I could see 4 different groups of hunters in one field and probably saw another 3 in the distance.  Unh, Unh, not for me.....  And this was a week day.



I am sure it won't be for everybody no doubt....I have hunted put and take lands in Iowa before, did not see another hunter, granted it was late in the season and cold as all get out......I got a couple of pheasants and I worked harder for them than I ever worked for wild birds, but what do we do for public bird hunting?  Go to quota for one or two groups of hunters every other week on our WMAs with a wild bird population?  That is what you will have to do to keep any chance of finding more than one or two skinny coveys, even on our best land.  That means a couple of dozen hunters get drawn a year....we will never get numbers that way....never.  And without numbers, well, there won't be much in the way of funds for public lands.  You said you saw 7 groups on a week day on one piece of property.....well, that makes for numbers and the more numbers the more influence.  Silver Lake was great its first year open, and not bad its second year, word got out....well, hard to find birds there after a few weeks of small game hunting and the ones you find are in coveys that number in the single digits so you really shouldn't harvest from them.  I hunt the WMAs of sowega that have decent bird populations at the start of the season, you will be hard pressed to find the coveys now and when you do, they are just reminant coveys.....wild birds can't take that kind of pressure that they are faced with on public land. I have talked to hunters that talk about hunting singles on WMAs, is that legal to do? Yeah. Is it ethical to do?  NO. So unless we give the public in general a chance to hunt birds with a decent chance of harvesting enough for dinner we are not going to have public access birds....Yeah habitat is extremely important....but all the habitat in the world is not going to support birds when they are hunted regularly and by people who hunt singles.  Early on some of the WMAs down here 5 or more covey days (really half days) were not that uncommon, this is on public land, but the past few years, I don't go but once or twice a year and the coveys I find are way too small to harvest anything from. I am lucky, I don't have to rely on public land birds however I always liked hunting public land for the challenge, but it is not enjoyable to harvest anything anymore....with all the WMAs down here, I run into bird hunters almost everytime I am out now and we are all chasing the same hand full of coveys......Heck, I know folks that go to dog training areas on WMAs to hunt clean up, one of the WMAs that is quota hunting only, that is mainly what is shot...it is one of the older dog training areas in the state.  

Talk to people who manage large tracts for wild birds, ask how much they spend on burning, feeding, discing, etc....it is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars a year (average wild bird plantation cost about 500,000.00 a year to keep up and running according to plantation services in Albany, taxes, etc...and that is with conservation easments to keep the taxes down) I know in the late 90s that is what Blue Springs spent a year and that was with low fuel costs....and they keep the hunting per course to no more than once a week without shooting singles.....and yes, they have lots of birds, but they will tell you that their property can not sustain heavy hunting and keep those birds.  I have birds on my property in Mitchell Co. have over 700 acres of decent habitat, but I wont hunt them but 4 or 5 times a year because I know where they hang out and if I hunt them much more than that I have few making it into breeding season and I don't have the money to manage the land heavily for birds.  I do discing, burning and that is about it.  The average life span of the wild quail is something like .8 years and on public land I imagine it is somewhat smaller.......

WE NEED SOMETHING to get non-bird hunters involved in bird hunting, the only way I see that happening is that we all buy huge tracts of land and we open them up to regulated public hunting or we stock birds on borderline habitat on public lands. I am open to all ideas....but all I get is "it wont work", "its not for me" etc...etc... please tell me something else that will get numbers of new hunters involved in the sport.....I take new comers hunting when I can and I am sure you do too....but that is not enough, not nowhere near enough....if we all did that, we would get a few hundred people who have been quail hunting, but are they going to invest in a dog when they have to rely on an invite? Nope.  Will they get active in QF or TT?  I doubt it. Will they speak up at the DNR hearings?  Why, if they don't have dogs......?

We all (at least most of us) hunt released birds on our property or the property of others from time to time if nothing else but to train our dogs.....why not do it on public land?


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## coveyrise (Feb 5, 2013)

Truthfully we are  having a hard enough time keeping our old hunters in this sport much less recruiting new ones. All my friends that had bird dogs have gotten out of bird hunting when their dogs died. They just dont have the desire to spend money on feeding a dog all year just to hunt the few days that it is cool enough. This weather has soured a lot of people including plantation owners. 
Until we find enough money to take care of the land we have, I dont see the state coming up with any money to buy birds. Not that it wont work. Its just that they dont even have enough money to harrow the wildlife openings on any of the WMA's now or even money to burn properly. I wonder how many people that have put out request for people with bird dogs to hunt with on Di-Lane will become bird hunters now that they have had a chance to go?  Probably very few. 
Wild bird hunting is probably the least convenient sport there is. Most people dont want to put in the amount of time and energy that it takes to find wild birds. Why tease them with pen raised birds?


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## kingofcool (Feb 5, 2013)

muckalee said:


> On the states that do this.....I moved my son to Naperville Illinois around Christmas.  Saw one of those state lands in Illinois.  From the highway I could see 4 different groups of hunters in one field and probably saw another 3 in the distance.  Unh, Unh, not for me.....  And this was a week day.



I have a lot of problems with this mentality.  I don't even know where to start so here are a few somewhat related points.

1. I lost my Dad when I was young.  I only got to hunt with him a handful of times before he died.  Now, with a son of my own these things - hunting, fishing, and the outdoors in general - are things that I want my son to enjoy.  Unfortunately I'm working with the little knowledge my Dad shared with me in his lifetime and everything else I must come up on my own.  And honestly, I've had an interest in quail hunting/upland hunting for at least a year, maybe two, and have yet to find many opportunities (cash is limited).  We are not all so lucky to have access to hunting property and/or relatives to take us.

2.  In my early 20s, when I wanted to get back into fly fishing, I bought a fly rod and the next day I was fishing.  Granted some had to do with the fact that there is less gear involved and less responsibilities, but also had a large part with the numerous free and easily accessible trout fishing in the state. 


3.  On a related note, on the Chattahoochee, from Morgan Falls Dam to Paces Park, ever November to April it is classified as "delayed harvest."  Delayed harvest is a strictly put and take fishery.  100% stocked trout with virtually zero holdovers.  My point is, it's about as far from a natural trout fishing experience - say, a Montana spring creek - as one gets but it gets slammed.  On any given Saturday I bet you could find at least 5 - 10 ppl who are trying fly fishing for the first time.  Honestly, I avoid it like the plague especially on the weekends but as long as people are introduced to the sport properly, I think it's somewhat good.  Plus it brings business to the state and businesses.  Heck, I bet the Fish Hawk's sales rise significantly during those months.  

4.  I can't say it will be the exact same for birds but stocked trout protect the wild trout.  Basically, most people will go to the closer stocked trout than work for the wild trout.  And once someone does graduate to wild trout they usually have an appreciation for how special they are.  I can't say for sure but I bet it would be similar with birds.


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## moore0661 (Feb 5, 2013)

There has been some great discussion in this thread about the problems we face as quail hunters, but the bad news is that there is not much we can do about it.   The explosion  in quail population was a by product of our land management practices.  And for the forseeable future we will not return to those practices.  I won't say never, but it is highly unlikely.  Efforts to restore the bobwhite quail and its habitat are noble, but they are costly and time consuming.  Quail hunting is now a fringe sport, and will proabably stay that way.

But the problems facing us are bigger than that.  We need more hunters, not just quail hunters.  We're seeing a decline in overall numbers of people that hunt in the last 25 years even though our population has grown about 20%.  The main issue is affordable access to land.  The fact is, we're pricing the average American out of hunting.  It's not a coincidence that our two most popular game animals, the deer and turkey, are the most affordable to hunt.

As I said in my thread on farm subsidies and dove hunting, we're pricing the hunters out of dove hunting, while the dove population is going strong.  The same land management practices that hurt the quail are helping to dove.  The problem is access to that land.  At a recent auction here an out of town farmer purchased 5,000 acres of land for 8 million dollars.  Without farm subsidies, this type of aquisition would have been unlikely.  It would have been broken up into smaller lots and sold off.  But with our current system, one man now controls all that land.  

My idea might not have been perfect, but it was an idea.  This thread is similar in that every percieved negative is cause to squash the entire idea.  With an ever growing population, a decline in hunters, and a growing anti-gun/anti-hunting sentiment, we're not far away from losing hunting all together.  These traditions and values we hold in such high regard won't mean anything unless we can expose the younger generation to the sport we love.


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## coveyrise (Feb 5, 2013)

More dove fields on state owned lands would be a start. You could take some of the clearcuts on these WMAs and put them into cultivation and rent to farmers. It would be more profitable than planting pines. The quail and other wildlife would benefit from the fields as a bugging and food source. It would give more opportunities for everyone.


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## BirdNut (Feb 5, 2013)

coveyrise said:


> More dove fields on state owned lands would be a start. You could take some of the clearcuts on these WMAs and put them into cultivation and rent to farmers. It would be more profitable than planting pines. The quail and other wildlife would benefit from the fields as a bugging and food source. It would give more opportunities for everyone.



A number of years back I was told by a state employee that the lease agreements on a lot of the WMAs REQUIRE pines to be planted because the landowners want a return on investment.

At the time, I thought of it as an excuse, but maybe it is true.  There is a lot of WMA land owned outright by the state.

Perhaps we can get this changed.  How would we start?


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## kingofcool (Feb 5, 2013)

I was thinking about the next step.

Are there rules compelling DNR that they are not following?  If so, there are pretty easy ways to make them follow.

If not, lobby legislature.  Either for mandates for DNR and/or more revenue streams for managing land/stocking.  

Honestly, I think to make a true change, there should be some study saying x amount of money spent managing the land and/or stocking will bring x amount of revenue in license fees.  Of course you have the states already stocking as case studies.

But then again, probably the best way for the average GON member to make a difference is to give money/time to a non profit much more equipped to handle the situation than a bunch of guys on a message board.  And I mean no disrespect by that (I am one of them).


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## coachdoug87 (Feb 5, 2013)

I guess my main point is I would rather would do anything
than nothing. I also think there are young people who
Don't enjoy the sitting required in deer and Turkey hunting
who would enjoy hunting behind a dog. That alone would
make it worthwhile to provide the opportunity.


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