# Simple demonstration of our complex mind



## hobbs27 (May 24, 2015)

This is what it's like to go from non believer to believer, and probably vice versa. It also demonstrates the struggles we have in the individuals that read the very same scripture yet their mind takes them down very different paths. Once we are set on a path it is almost impossible to break away. I deal with this almost daily speaking with futurist, they will not acknowledge the over 100 imminent time statements in scripture, because of their presuppositions. How do I know this? I was once in their shoes!

Pretty cool video though, what do you think?


----------



## ambush80 (May 24, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> This is what it's like to go from non believer to believer, and probably vice versa. It also demonstrates the struggles we have in the individuals that read the very same scripture yet their mind takes them down very different paths. Once we are set on a path it is almost impossible to break away. I deal with this almost daily speaking with futurist, they will not acknowledge the over 100 imminent time statements in scripture, because of their presuppositions. How do I know this? I was once in their shoes!
> 
> Pretty cool video though, what do you think?



Very cool.  Thanks for sharing.

What he proves is that you can move between biases with training.  It's not a difference between truth or untruth.  The similarity goes only so far as to show that certain things get ingrained and are hard to reverse, like motor skills. 

Implications to scripture:  None.

Belief in scripture is like telling yourself that the bike can fly.  No matter how hard you try it can't be done.

Also of note is the fact that children are very susceptible to programming at a young age and the programming goes deep and is hard to reverse when they get older.  Something to think about if you want them to be able to "ride both ways".


----------



## hobbs27 (May 24, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Very cool. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 You're welcome, and I agree it has no implication to scripture, but it does show how our bias or our system of understanding scripture can have an impact on our interpretations.

 Someone taught to be pre-trib-premil will see that in scripture no matter what the scripture says, and will argue till they're blue in the face that they are right...they think they are, it's the way their brain has been trained to think and coordinate happenings in the scripture.
 Changing from that, a paradigm shift will not be after one meeting or debate, it takes a lot of time.


----------



## ambush80 (May 24, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> You're welcome, and I agree it has no implication to scripture, but it does show how our bias or our system of understanding scripture can have an impact on our interpretations.
> 
> Someone taught to be pre-trib-premil will see that in scripture no matter what the scripture says, and will argue till they're blue in the face that they are right...they think they are, it's the way their brain has been trained to think and coordinate happenings in the scripture.
> Changing from that, a paradigm shift will not be after one meeting or debate, it takes a lot of time.



"Daddy was a Ford man.  Me and mine are Ford men."


----------



## WaltL1 (May 24, 2015)

I think it may also apply to the claim of "if you don't believe any more, you never really believed to begin with" that those of us who left Christianity constantly hear.


----------



## EverGreen1231 (May 24, 2015)

Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 24, 2015)

EverGreen1231 said:


> Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.


Has been proven false a million times over unfortunately.


----------



## bullethead (May 24, 2015)

EverGreen1231 said:


> Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.


That has got to be one of the worst statements ever.
Every family has at least one member per generation that has been raised the same as others yet could not be more of a black sheep.


----------



## Artfuldodger (May 24, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> You're welcome, and I agree it has no implication to scripture, but it does show how our bias or our system of understanding scripture can have an impact on our interpretations.
> 
> Someone taught to be pre-trib-premil will see that in scripture no matter what the scripture says, and will argue till they're blue in the face that they are right...they think they are, it's the way their brain has been trained to think and coordinate happenings in the scripture.
> Changing from that, a paradigm shift will not be after one meeting or debate, it takes a lot of time.



For me it was a bias towards the Trinity. I was programed by my Church to believe it. I had to un-think what I had learned. Now when I read Scripture is makes more sense.

I agree that the 2nd coming at 70AD does make some scripture make more sense. I agree that some scripture makes Jesus appear to be his Father. Some scripture appears to prove predestiny. Some scripture appears to prove freewill exists. Some scripture appears that one can lose his salvation. Some scripture appears that Adam didn't have a choice and on and on. Some scripture appears to say one must be elected to salvation, and on & on.


----------



## EverGreen1231 (May 25, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> Has been proven false a million times over unfortunately.





bullethead said:


> That has got to be one of the worst statements ever.
> Every family has at least one member per generation that has been raised the same as others yet could not be more of a black sheep.



The he SHOULD go...


----------



## bullethead (May 25, 2015)

EverGreen1231 said:


> The he SHOULD go...


And you SHOULD stop making those types of statements.


----------



## EverGreen1231 (May 25, 2015)

bullethead said:


> And you SHOULD stop making those types of statements.



Nah, I'm havin' fun; besides...if you'd pay attention to  the words and realize that they mean very specific things when combined together, I'd have no need of making such statements.

I also miss-typed...I meant to say "The way he SHOULD go." Y'all knew that, but it bothers me not clarify.


----------



## bullethead (May 26, 2015)

EverGreen1231 said:


> Nah, I'm havin' fun; besides...if you'd pay attention to  the words and realize that they mean very specific things when combined together, I'd have no need of making such statements.
> 
> I also miss-typed...I meant to say "The way he SHOULD go." Y'all knew that, but it bothers me not clarify.


" if you pay attention to the words and realize they mean very specific things when combined together.."

Many people call them sentences.


----------



## EverGreen1231 (May 26, 2015)

bullethead said:


> " if you pay attention to the words and realize they mean very specific things when combined together.."
> 
> Many people call them sentences.



 True enough, but the _specific_ words that are used mean much more than folks seem to want to acknowledge.

...in the way he should go...

means something very different from...

...in the way you have gone...

That's all I'm trying to say. It ain't hard.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 26, 2015)

I'm not sure how this has gotten so complicated. 


> Originally Posted by EverGreen1231 View Post
> Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.


The sentence is pretty simple. But what makes the sentence false is the second half -


> and when he is old he will not depart from it.


Many, many cases of those who depart from how they were "trained" once becoming old.
In some cases that's a really good thing. In some cases that's a really bad thing.


----------



## JB0704 (May 26, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> In some cases that's a really good thing. In some cases that's a really bad thing.



True.  

As a general rule, people stick with what they are taught at a young age.  It's a basic function of how our brain learns to think.  It's also why adults have difficulty overcoming abuse which occurs at a young age.  Lot's of our thought patterns are cemented very young in life.

Consider this......perhaps a lot of why we stray from early teachings has to do with a negative reaction to early inputs.  For instance, a person who had religion hammered into them at a young age may develop a negative thought process towards the concept, and that manifests later in life through an abandonment of the faith.


----------



## JimD (May 26, 2015)

Walt, I think if you looked at that verse not as a "religious" quote but just as a quote it is mostly true. If you raise a child from birth with love and morales (I won't define those!), and values and respect and consequences, USUALLY they will turn out right in the end.


----------



## JB0704 (May 26, 2015)

You fellas generally know a ton about biology.  This is why there is a nature v nurture debate, not just relevant to orientation, but to behavior in general.  "Nurture" influences a lot of who we become as adults, and how we think.

To that end, the scripture referenced above is accurate, and way ahead of it's time.


----------



## JB0704 (May 26, 2015)

JimD said:


> If you raise a child from birth with love and morales (I won't define those!), and values and respect and consequences, USUALLY they will turn out right in the end.



"With love" is a key phrase.  Lots of things can be taught at a young age which will have an opposite impact later on if presented incorrectly.  Add into the mix that each individual is unique, and the most effective method will vary adds into the mix as to whether or not a child will develop into the person the parent is raising them to be.

For instance, I have two children.  They are both very opposite in how they learn.  The jury is still out as to whether or not I have figured out how to teach them correctly, but I approach each from very different directions.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 26, 2015)

JimD said:


> Walt, I think if you looked at that verse not as a "religious" quote but just as a quote it is mostly true. If you raise a child from birth with love and morales (I won't define those!), and values and respect and consequences, USUALLY they will turn out right in the end.


Yes I removed religion from it as being "religious" doesn't make it true or false.
And yes I agree with your use of "mostly" and "usually" however they weren't used in the quote.
Although we are using mostly and usually without actually knowing that, we are just assuming.
Some pretty huge changes in thinking from generation to generation despite how one may or may not have been trained.


----------



## welderguy (May 26, 2015)

Hobbs, GREAT video!! very interesting and informative about the way God made our motor skills memory.(I especially liked it when he said welders were smarter than engineers)

However,the application of motor skills memory and the ability to believe truth are entirely two different things.

For instance,regeneration,which is a change made in us by the Holy Spirit,making us a totally new person.

Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done(motor skills),but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

The ability to believe in God comes through faith,which we know is the gift of God.
Heb.11:6 " But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

It's possible to learn and unlearn how to ride a bicycle,but it takes the power of the Holy Spirit for someone to "learn"(believe) the truth of God.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 26, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> True.
> 
> As a general rule, people stick with what they are taught at a young age.  It's a basic function of how our brain learns to think.  It's also why adults have difficulty overcoming abuse which occurs at a young age.  Lot's of our thought patterns are cemented very young in life.
> 
> Consider this......perhaps a lot of why we stray from early teachings has to do with a negative reaction to early inputs.  For instance, a person who had religion hammered into them at a young age may develop a negative thought process towards the concept, and that manifests later in life through an abandonment of the faith.





> As a general rule, people stick with what they are taught at a young age.


Which is a double edge sword. When I see those kids holding up signs from Westboro Baptist or the kids wielding an AK47 for Islam, I can only hope that they are able to break free from their training. Which was probably presented to them in a "loving" manner.


----------



## JB0704 (May 26, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> we can only hope that they are able to break free from their training.



I agree.  But, do they break because they learn new thought processes, or was there a break somewhere in the training?  Such as a kid like I was being raised to be a legalistic Baptist rejecting most of that as an adult?  There was absolutely a weakness in my training, and I learned rebellion at a very young age.



WaltL1 said:


> Which was probably presented to them in a "loving" manner.



Yea, I'm probably off with my loving comment.  More accurate is "effective" in that the teacher finds an effective means of teaching the concept......often this comes from a "loving" position, with loving being a relative term.

The point is that the verse in question is accurate from a biological perspective, long before folks were studying psychology and recognizing that thought patterns are cemented from a very young age.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 26, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> I agree.  But, do they break because they learn new thought processes, or was there a break somewhere in the training?  Such as a kid like I was being raised to be a legalistic Baptist rejecting most of that as an adult?  There was absolutely a weakness in my training, and I learned rebellion at a very young age.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> But, do they break because they learn new thought processes, or was there a break somewhere in the training?


Maybe that's where this comes in -


> Add into the mix that each individual is unique, and the most effective method will vary





> The point is that the verse in question is accurate from a biological perspective, long before folks were studying psychology and recognizing that thought patterns are cemented from a very young age.


And sometimes I get a BlackJack through nothing that I did 
Im not sure that indoctrinating/training kids in what you believe is necessarily particularly ahead of its time.
A pretty strong case could be made it was originally born out of survival.


----------



## JimD (May 26, 2015)

Yes each human being is very different just as each dog or cat is different. It takes knowing the individual in how we deal with each individual. I have a lab that was just about perfect in behavior from birth and had a bulldog that was soo bull-headed that he got a lot more discipline than the lab. My two step daughters were raised "right" but they both came out of the womb wanting to do good and get good grades etc. I still think the main point, irrespective of religion, is that if you raise a child with those same "universal truths" I've spoken about before (joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, faith) that the odds are greatly skewed in favor of producing a "good" person rather than a "bad" one.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 26, 2015)

JimD said:


> Yes each human being is very different just as each dog or cat is different. It takes knowing the individual in how we deal with each individual. I have a lab that was just about perfect in behavior from birth and had a bulldog that was soo bull-headed that he got a lot more discipline than the lab. My two step daughters were raised "right" but they both came out of the womb wanting to do good and get good grades etc. I still think the main point, irrespective of religion, is that if you raise a child with those same "universal truths" I've spoken about before (joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, faith) that the odds are greatly skewed in favor of producing a "good" person rather than a "bad" one.


Yes and of course a parents responsibility is to try and instill all those qualities in a child.
My only argument was that despite a parents best effort to do that, that's not always how the child ends up.
I was being specific to this -


> Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.


----------



## JB0704 (May 26, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> Im not sure that indoctrinating/training kids in what you believe is necessarily particularly ahead of its time.



The accuracy of the statement was in question.  It could be that it has always been obvious. Now we know it is a biological function.  The statement was made thousands of years before we knew anything about how people learn to think.


----------



## JB0704 (May 26, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> My only argument was that despite a parents best effort to do that, that's not always how the child ends up.



Best and effective are two different things.  As with my young'ns, if I raised them both the same way, I would likely not get positive results.......my best effort could be to approach each the same as that is how I am wired to approach child rasing, in such case I would not be effective (or I thnk I wouldn't be, time will tell).

I will use my family as an example.  I am certain my father did his "best."  However, he approached all 3 sons and his daughter in the same way.  The end results were not what he was looking for.  I would go so far as to say he was not effective, and most of his kids have rejected both his religious tendencies and his child raising practices.  We learned this at a young age as a negative reaction to his pratices.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 26, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> The accuracy of the statement was in question.  It could be that it has always been obvious. Now we know it is a biological function.  The statement was made thousands of years before we knew anything about how people learn to think.


Im not trying to be difficult but Im not getting the significance of that?
The cave parents who taught their cave child that it was good to care about their clan was doing the same thing without knowing how people think. In fact they were doing it before the existence of what we call "people".


----------



## JB0704 (May 26, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> Im not trying to be difficult but Im not getting the significance of that?



I'm only bringing it up because the accuracy of the statement was called into question.  I concede that cave men likely understood this as well, which is why they prolly taught their young'ns how to club things and occasionally cook it before eating


----------



## 660griz (May 26, 2015)

I have seen kids raised right and turned out wrong. I have seen kids raised wrong and turned out right. 

I need to do some more research but, I think it has to do with the 'loser' gene. If you have it, your upbringing can delay its onset but, you are gonna be a loser. If you don't have it, bad up bringing can delay the onset of you being successfully.


----------



## JB0704 (May 26, 2015)

660griz said:


> I have seen kids raised right and turned out wrong. I have seen kids raised wrong and turned out right.



Subjective.



660griz said:


> I need to do some more research but, I think it has to do with the 'loser' gene. If you have it, your upbringing can delay its onset but, you are gonna be a loser. If you don't have it, bad up bringing can delay the onset of you being successfully.



Funny.


----------



## 660griz (May 26, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> Subjective.



I understand how you could come that conclusion given the limited amount of information but, believe me, it was not only my conclusion. In most instances, right and wrong was by MOST anyone's standards.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 26, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> I'm only bringing it up because the accuracy of the statement was called into question.  I concede that cave men likely understood this as well, which is why they prolly taught their young'ns how to club things and occasionally cook it before eating


I think maybe we are arguing semantics.
You have listed several reasons why the training doesn't always result in being trained -
uniqueness of individuals
the quality of the training
generic training as opposed to training of an individual etc.
That's what makes the statement, which doesn't allow for any of that but specifically states "and when he is old he will not depart from it" inaccurate.
Sometimes its accurate, sometimes its not.
Is it a good philosophy? Yes.


----------



## JB0704 (May 26, 2015)

660griz said:


> I understand how you could come that conclusion given the limited amount of information but, believe me, it was not only my conclusion. In most instances, right and wrong was by MOST anyone's standards.



Part in red makes it subjective.  If each person is different, then both the child will  have a different "right" for being raised, and most assessing whether or not it was done correctly would lack enough evidence to be sure of the statement.

MOST folks would say my siblings and I were raised right and turned out wrong.......cause most of us drank


----------



## 660griz (May 26, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> Part in red makes it subjective.  If each person is different, then both the child will  have a different "right" for being raised, and most assessing whether or not it was done correctly would lack enough evidence to be sure of the statement.
> 
> MOST folks would say my siblings and I were raised right and turned out wrong.......cause most of us drank



Drinking isn't wrong. You need to hang out with a better group of MOST folks.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 26, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Hobbs, GREAT video!! very interesting and informative about the way God made our motor skills memory.(I especially liked it when he said welders were smarter than engineers)
> 
> However,the application of motor skills memory and the ability to believe truth are entirely two different things.
> 
> ...


Notice how everyone here is using their brain, experiences, opinions, own thoughts etc to discuss the topic?
Your regurgitation of scripture is the opposite of that.


----------



## JB0704 (May 26, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> Is it a good philosophy? Yes.



Yes, and I believe the statement is a philosophical guide.

Consider that both believers and non-believers struggle with the concept of whether or not we have free will.  This applies to this discussion.  Let's assume there is no God, then everything we do can be considered part of our engineering......good, bad, indifferent.  Even if there is a God in the equation, the statement still applies on a biological level relevant to engineered behavior.  God in the equation explains the "why" of it all, not the "how."

I also believe some people are just "mis-fires."  For instance, the family black sheep.  Often, a 3rd party can identify something which may contribute to the behavior.  For instance a family with 4 kids having one that is just bad.  How does that happen with the other 3 being good in what appears to be a loving, caring environment?  I know of one situation and, imo, it has to do with the fact that the other 3 are not taught to value and defend the 4th, leaving that child to be babied by his parents, but feeling un-loved by his siblings.  The end result is a "me against the world" attitude.

99% of folks would say the young'n is being raised right.  I would be in the 1% who say none of the 4 children are.


----------



## JB0704 (May 26, 2015)

660griz said:


> Drinking isn't wrong. You need to hang out with a better group of MOST folks.



Oh, I do Griz.  "Most" is subjective depending on one's environment.......such as a New York liberal wondering how in the world a Republican ever gets elected president.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 26, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> Yes, and I believe the statement is a philosophical guide.
> 
> Consider that both believers and non-believers struggle with the concept of whether or not we have free will.  This applies to this discussion.  Let's assume there is no God, then everything we do can be considered part of our engineering......good, bad, indifferent.  Even if there is a God in the equation, the statement still applies on a biological level relevant to engineered behavior.  God in the equation explains the "why" of it all, not the "how."
> 
> ...





> Yes, and I believe the statement is a philosophical guide


.
Agreed.


> Let's assume there is no God


Way ahead of you on that one 
(but yes I admit its an assumption)


> then everything we do can be considered part of our engineering......good, bad, indifferent.  Even if there is a God in the equation, the statement still applies on a biological level relevant to engineered behavior.  God in the equation explains the "why" of it all, not the "how."


I think the "how" can also be the "why".


> I would be in the 1% who say none of the 4 children are.


I cant really comment on your example other than to say yes being on the outside looking in can give an entirely different perspective.
Its the basis for almost all of our conversation here in the AAA forum.


----------



## JB0704 (May 26, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> .I cant really comment on your example other than to say yes being on the outside looking in can give an entirely different perspective.



Shame of it all is that this kid is not thought of real well by anybody.  I feel bad for him.  Everybody says "he's got great parents," but I have seen his brothers let other folks belittle him (I've pulled his brothers aside on more than one occasion and explained that they could fix this).  One thing i had going for me was I grew up with two older brothers who would whoop me for fun, but, they didn't let anybody else older and bigger mess with me.......kids my own age I was on my own, as it should be.  Lookin' after your own is something that is taught as well, I believe.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 26, 2015)

> Originally Posted by welderguy
> However,the application of motor skills memory and the ability to believe truth are entirely two different things


Are you sure they are entirely two different things?
The whole basis of the experiment shows the brain believed the "truth" was if you turn to the right you would go to the right.
The new "truth" was if you turned to the right you went left.
The motor skills and memory were the vehicles to put those "truths" into action. They are all connected.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 26, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> Shame of it all is that this kid is not thought of real well by anybody.  I feel bad for him.  Everybody says "he's got great parents," but I have seen his brothers let other folks belittle him (I've pulled his brothers aside on more than one occasion and explained that they could fix this).  One thing i had going for me was I grew up with two older brothers who would whoop me for fun, but, they didn't let anybody else older and bigger mess with me.......kids my own age I was on my own, as it should be.  Lookin' after your own is something that is taught as well, I believe.





> Everybody says "he's got great parents," but I have seen his brothers let other folks belittle him


Yep no excuse for that. Even if the kid was a complete moron, the brothers should be taught to protect their moron of a brother.


----------



## 660griz (May 26, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> Oh, I do Griz.  "Most" is subjective depending on one's environment.......such as a New York liberal wondering how in the world a Republican ever gets elected president.



I was not referring to a militant Christian environment. More generally speaking. However, I do understand you are going to manage to the exceptions so, O.k. subjective it is.


----------



## JB0704 (May 26, 2015)

660griz said:


> However, I do understand you are going to manage to the exceptions so, O.k. subjective it is.



Absolutes are always managed to the exceptions on this sub-forum, view any discussion on universal morality for context.


----------



## JB0704 (May 26, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> Yep no excuse for that. Even if the kid was a complete moron, the brothers should be taught to protect their moron of a brother.



Agreed. Almost everybody says "but he has great parents and his siblings are all doing great."

I guess what I'm trying to say is that those instances where something seems to break the trend there is often an explanation, sometimes more obvious than others.


----------



## welderguy (May 26, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> Notice how everyone here is using their brain, experiences, opinions, own thoughts etc to discuss the topic?
> Your regurgitation of scripture is the opposite of that.



Walt,I understand that you have no appreciation for the scriptures.I totally get that.But Hobbs is the one that started this thread and I'm pretty sure he does appreciate scripture.Notice he even made his comments about the video based on belief in the scriptures.So,out of respect for the OP,I'm trying to stay on topic.


----------



## bullethead (May 26, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Walt,I understand that you have no appreciation for the scriptures.I totally get that.But Hobbs is the one that started this thread and I'm pretty sure he does appreciate scripture.Notice he even made his comments about the video based on belief in the scriptures.So,out of respect for the OP,I'm trying to stay on topic.


So do you post scripture in every other thread that has nothing to do about scripture out of disrespect and to veer off topic?


----------



## WaltL1 (May 26, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Walt,I understand that you have no appreciation for the scriptures.I totally get that.But Hobbs is the one that started this thread and I'm pretty sure he does appreciate scripture.Notice he even made his comments about the video based on belief in the scriptures.So,out of respect for the OP,I'm trying to stay on topic.


Note the SUBJECT line -
Simple demonstration of our complex mind.
Interpretation of scriptures was given as an example of how the mind works.
That makes all of this -


> For instance,regeneration,which is a change made in us by the Holy Spirit,making us a totally new person.
> Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done(motor skills),but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"
> The ability to believe in God comes through faith,which we know is the gift of God.
> Heb.11:6 " But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."


Just you regurgitating scripture.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 26, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> Agreed. Almost everybody says "but he has great parents and his siblings are all doing great."
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is that those instances where something seems to break the trend there is often an explanation, sometimes more obvious than others.


We certainly agree that if the brothers allow him to be belittled they arent doing so "great". And if the parents know about it they need a smack upside the head.
Its not a surprise the kid thinks its him against the world.
Now on the flip side it may be he is using that as an excuse. Age would probably be a big factor here too.


----------



## JB0704 (May 26, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> We certainly agree that if the brothers allow him to be belittled they arent doing so "great". And if the parents know about it they need a smack upside the head.
> Its not a surprise the kid thinks its him against the world.
> Now on the flip side it may be he is using that as an excuse. Age would probably be a big factor here too.



Prolly a little of all of the above.  Kid definitely ahs issues and starts a lot of his own junk, brothers definitely could fix it but won't, parents are blind to both.......just glad I'm not dealing with it.


----------



## 660griz (May 27, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> Now on the flip side it may be he is using that as an excuse.



Most likely. Most kids have realized that they are rarely at fault. 

I think parents get way to much credit when a kid turns out good and way to much blame if the kid turns out to be a serial killer.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 27, 2015)

660griz said:


> Most likely. Most kids have realized that they are rarely at fault.
> 
> I think parents get way to much credit when a kid turns out good and way to much blame if the kid turns out to be a serial killer.


In general, I completely agree.
And I say in general because there are cases where I believe parents create a monster where the kid had almost no choice but to become a monster.
An interesting case is Richard Kuklinsky known as The Iceman. He was a serial killer, a Mafia contract killer, his brother was a child murderer, his father beat a younger brother to death, he was abused by his father. His mother a devout Christian would pray while they were being beaten but not lift a finger to stop it.
There are interviews with him on Youtube. 
He didn't stand a chance of being anything other than what he was.


----------



## 660griz (May 27, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> In general, I completely agree.
> And I say in general because there are cases where I believe parents create a monster where the kid had almost no choice but to become a monster.
> An interesting case is Richard Kuklinsky known as The Iceman. He was a serial killer, a Mafia contract killer, his brother was a child murderer, his father beat a younger brother to death, he was abused by his father. His mother a devout Christian would pray while they were being beaten but not lift a finger to stop it.
> There are interviews with him on Youtube.
> He didn't stand a chance of being anything other than what he was.



I saw the documentary. 
If there had only been another kid, different genes, raised in the same house. Oh well. 
I do know folks that were beaten as kids and grew up fine. I also know of kids raised without abuse and became a serial killer.

Perhaps it is a complex combo of genetics and environment. Neither 1 on its own can be held responsible.

Either way, at some point, you reach adulthood. Unless mentally deficient, you get to decide what to do.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 27, 2015)

660griz said:


> I saw the documentary.
> If there had only been another kid, different genes, raised in the same house. Oh well.
> I do know folks that were beaten as kids and grew up fine. I also know of kids raised without abuse and became a serial killer.
> 
> ...


----------



## JB0704 (May 27, 2015)

660griz said:


> I saw the documentary.
> If there had only been another kid, different genes, raised in the same house. Oh well.
> I do know folks that were beaten as kids and grew up fine. I also know of kids raised without abuse and became a serial killer.



Adult behavior could still be a reaction to childhood events reflected through rebellion or rejection of what one sees......such as the abused kid determining not to do the same.

I do agree that adults are responsible for their choices, regardless of the process that lead them to where they are.


----------

