# The arrogance of atheism.



## VisionCasting (Jan 5, 2011)

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/12/29/2010-12-29_the_arrogance_of_the_atheists_they_batter_believers_with_smug_certainty.html?page=1

I though this NY Daily News opinion was interesting, especially as it comes from an atheist.  

My favorite quote:  "When the esteemed theologian David Martyn Lloyd-Jones asked C.S. Lewis when he would write another book, Lewis responded, "When I understand the meaning of prayer." It was an acknowledgment that he - a thinker with a much sharper mind than, say, Maher's - didn't know everything. I implore my fellow atheists to take this humility to heart. There's still a lot to learn, but only if you're not too busy being a know-it-all."


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## atlashunter (Jan 5, 2011)

Which atheist claimed they know everything? Sources and links please


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2011)

"The truth is, folks like Maher and Silverman don't want to know about actual belief - in fact, they are much more certain about the nature of the world than most actual believers, who understand that a measure of doubt is necessary for faith."

Really, now?


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## VisionCasting (Jan 5, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Which atheist claimed they know everything? Sources and links please



It was some MENSA guy, but I think he was banned.


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2011)

Where lies the arrogance?  Someone claims that there is an invisible being that speaks only to them and that the being tells them what is right and wrong for everybody.  Someone else says:  lets put aside the things that can only be perceived by the individual and figure things out using language that we can ALL agree on.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 5, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Someone claims that there is an invisible being that speaks only to them and that the being tells them what is right and wrong for everybody.   ALL agree on.



Sources and links please 

Your strawman bears no weight.


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## atlashunter (Jan 5, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Which atheist claimed they know everything? Sources and links please



Still waiting for this laundry list of atheists who claim to know it all. Shall I hold my breath?


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## VisionCasting (Jan 5, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Still waiting for this laundry list of atheists who claim to know it all. Shall I hold my breath?



Oxygen deprivation can ruin your brain function.  Don't do it.  

Can you point to where I said all atheists know all?  Sources and links please.


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## stringmusic (Jan 5, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Still waiting for this laundry list of atheists who claim to know it all. Shall I hold my breath?



read through some of the post here, you will find numerous people who "know it all".


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Sources and links please
> 
> Your strawman bears no weight.



Oh my goodness!!!  Really?  Who do you go to to get the answer to that question?  You, yourself, and you.  Y'all have that same book and can't get the story straight.  

I bet we can ALL agree that 2+2=4.  That's a language that we can all agree on.  No interpretation. No discernment. 

Pigs fly?  No they don't.  Donkeys talk? No-- they--don't.


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## TTom (Jan 5, 2011)

Well source one the arrogance of atheists ( the title does not separate out those atheists who are arrogant and think they know it all and those who dont' and who focus their atheism on the specific fact that they don't know for certain.) Thus it lumps all atheist together

Source two the closing line of your OP ends with "There's still a lot to learn, but only if you're not too busy being a know-it-all." 

Speaking of strawmen this one fits the bill perfectly. You were not charged with saying ALL atheists, only asked to provide enough of a list to justify the title "The arrogance of Atheists", which infers that arrogance is a prevalent problem among atheist. So based on your choice of title, you must have some evidence to back up that inference that arrogance is a prevalent issue.


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> read through some of the post here, you will find numerous people who "know it all".



What do YOU know?  Jesus rose from the dead?  A hundred thousand animals were packed into a boat for 40 days and nights; cared for and fed?  And why do you believe this?  Because it jives with everything else that you've observed in your time here on Earth?


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## atlashunter (Jan 5, 2011)

Christian: I know how the universe and everything in it came to be. (Fill in creation story, talking snake, worldwide flood, 900 year old men, talking bush, man living in fish for 3 days, men and dinos living together, human sacrifice of gods son that is really the same god to himself so he can pay the price owed to himself for all the bad stuff people he created knowing they would do did, Jesus miracles, etc...) And if you believe what I'm telling you then you'll live forever after you die in another dimension that will be more pleasant than you could possibly ever imagine. BUT if you don't believe this then after you die you'll burn over and over and over again forever in a place that is more miserable than you can ever imagine!

Atheist: How do you know all this?

Christian: Because I read it in this book written by some goat herders in a middle eastern desert a few thousand years ago.

Atheist: You're beliefs are myths.

Christian: Arrogant know it all!!!


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Oxygen deprivation can ruin your brain function.  Don't do it.
> 
> Can you point to where I said all atheists know all?  Sources and links please.



Superstition definitely reduces brain function.


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## atlashunter (Jan 5, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> My favorite quote:  "When the esteemed theologian David Martyn Lloyd-Jones asked C.S. Lewis when he would write another book, Lewis responded, "When I understand the meaning of prayer." It was an acknowledgment that he - a thinker with a much sharper mind than, say, Maher's - didn't know everything. I implore my fellow atheists to take this humility to heart. There's still a lot to learn, but only if you're not too busy being a know-it-all."




So who are these atheists being referred to in your favorite quote?


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## Ridge Walker (Jan 5, 2011)

I'm thinking that the well thought out and logical posts of late on this forum are starting to get under the skin of certain believers.

Are you upset that the atheists and agnostics are making a lot of sense?

RW


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2011)

Ridge Walker said:


> I'm thinking that the well thought out and logical posts of late on this forum are starting to get under the skin of certain believers.
> 
> Are you upset that they're making a lot of sense?
> 
> RW



They're going to need a miracle.


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## Nicodemus (Jan 5, 2011)

A warnin` to both sides. Mockery will not be tolerated. Neither will blasphemy.


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2011)

Seriously, Vision,

Lets talk about how belief in things unseen changes the way that you approach a traffic jam.  Or a presidential candidate.  Or cheating on your taxes.  Matters of consequence.


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> A warnin` to both sides. Mockery will not be tolerated. Neither will blasphemy.




With the utmost due respect, I reviewed all of the stickies and found no definition of Blasphemy or Mockery.  Is there somewhere that this information can be viewed?


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## Nicodemus (Jan 5, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> With the utmost due respect, I reviewed all of the stickies and found no definition of Blasphemy or Mockery.  Is there somewhere that this information can be viewed?





You just read it, and you do not want to argue with me about it.


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## stringmusic (Jan 5, 2011)

Ridge Walker said:


> I'm thinking that the well thought out and logical posts of late on this forum are starting to get under the skin of certain believers.
> 
> Are you upset that the atheists and agnostics are making a lot of sense?
> 
> RW




Origin?

Unknown

Destiny?

Unknown

Morality?

Here's my best guess:
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=578954

Meaning?

Unknown 


This is the answers we all got In the thread Origin?Destiny?Morality?Meaning? I hope this doesn't make alot of sense to you or anybody else. The atheist or agnostic cannot make alot of sense everything just like the Christian cannot, however with the atheist or agnostic...... well just read the thread modern revolutionist, it does a very very good job explaining the atheist and agnostic.http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=592980


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## VisionCasting (Jan 5, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> So who are these atheists being referred to in your favorite quote?



Not my words, the words of an [former?] atheist.  I find it as interesting as you would a quote from a Christian that asserted Christians don't know all and need to keep an open mind.  

Seems detante is necessary all around.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 5, 2011)

TTom said:


> Speaking of strawmen this one fits the bill perfectly. You were not charged with saying ALL atheists, only asked to provide enough of a list to justify the title "The arrogance of Atheists", which infers that arrogance is a prevalent problem among atheist.



You are right.  I misquoted the title of the article.  It should have been "The arrogance of the atheists" not "The arrogance of atheism".  Just sourcing the BY Daily title in my post title.  It could just have easily read "Hey I noticed this interesting article"


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## atlashunter (Jan 5, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Not my words, the words of an [former?] atheist.  I find it as interesting as you would a quote from a Christian that asserted Christians don't know all and need to keep an open mind.
> 
> Seems detante is necessary all around.



It is interesting isn't it? I thought when you said it was your favorite quote it was because you actually agreed with the author. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 5, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Pigs fly?  No they don't.  Donkeys talk? No-- they--don't.



Matter creates itself?  No, it doesn't.  Sentient life evolves from mud?  No, it doesn't.  

None of this happens without miraculous intervention.


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## Ridge Walker (Jan 5, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Origin?
> 
> Unknown
> 
> ...


 Admitting that we don't have all the answers to life's questions *does* make more sense than believing the answer to those questions is "it's God's will", or "God dunnit". 

RW


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## Ridge Walker (Jan 5, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Matter creates itself?  No, it doesn't.  Sentient life evolves from mud?  No, it doesn't.
> 
> None of this happens without miraculous intervention.


Just because we don't exactly know or understand these things does not mean that a God intervened.

RW


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## VisionCasting (Jan 5, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> It is interesting isn't it? I thought when you said it was your favorite quote it was because you actually agreed with the author. Sorry for the misunderstanding.



I find this opinion piece as interesting as when I see a Christian author decry watered-down, popular Christianity.  Actually, I find the later more interesting because it lines up with my belief that Christ called Christians to much more than you see from sappy televangelists and scoundrels that use His name to line their pockets.

But I guess that makes me an outcast to atheists and [most] Christian alike.  

Maybe I can get my own subforum?


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## crbrumbelow (Jan 5, 2011)

The well thought out statements of people who think they know more than God does bother me.  It bothers me that they think there is no God and that all they have is this life.  It bothers me even more that they have probably heard the gospel and denied Christ, therefore being doomed to an eternity in satans pit.  

The bottom line is that they know God is real and he is coming back or they wouldnt spend all their time trying to think up arguments and twisting words to make people think that God isnt real.  

I know He is real.  There are too many instances of Him in my life and too many instances of Him taking me out behind the woodshed and proving it.  So for all you that know He is real and are trying to  prove He is not, I pray that He brings you to a new level of low so that you have no choice but to believe and live for Him.  I pray that he breaks your heart in a way that only He can fill it back up.  I pray this because I dont want to see anyone to go to the lake of fire at the great white throne of judgment.  

He!! enlarges its self everyday because of peoples arrogance not their ignorance.



You, your does not refer to one person in my statements above.  It refers to all atheist and none believers that participate in these forums.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 5, 2011)

Ridge Walker said:


> Just because we don't exactly know or understand these things does not mean that a God intervened.
> 
> RW



I never said "God".  Your words, not mine.  I prefer the definition of miracle - "that which defies natural law".

I've also heard it said "cannot be defined by natural law".  I think that is too loose.  Just because we can't define it w/natural law (today) doesn't mean it's an extraordinary thing.  Knowledge is always advancing.


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Matter creates itself?  No, it doesn't.  Sentient life evolves from mud?  No, it doesn't.
> 
> None of this happens without miraculous intervention.



Not long ago people thought that lightning was it was the result of Gods fighting, and it may very well be (the possibility of polytheism notwithstanding).  I'll reserve that explanation as a last resort, considering what has been learned about lightning.

Intervention.  That's a funny word.  Will your explanation of the necessity of intervention have anything to do with irreducible complexity?


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## VisionCasting (Jan 5, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Not long ago people thought that lightning was it was the result of Gods fighting.



Agreed.  See post #31.



ambush80 said:


> Intervention.  That's a funny word.  Will your explanation of the necessity of intervention have anything to do with irreducible complexity?



Nope. I find irreducible complexity a poor argument.


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## atlashunter (Jan 5, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Origin?
> 
> Unknown
> 
> ...



How ironic that atheists would be chastised for not knowing everything on this particular thread.


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## atlashunter (Jan 5, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> I know He is real.



Just like the followers of all the now defunct religions knew their god was real, their forgotten gods being tossed on the scrap heap of history. 




crbrumbelow said:


> So for all you that know He is real and are trying to  prove He is not, I pray that He brings you to a new level of low so that you have no choice but to believe and live for Him.  I pray that he breaks your heart in a way that only He can fill it back up.  I pray this because I dont want to see anyone to go to the lake of fire at the great white throne of judgment.



Sad...


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> The well thought out statements of people who think they know more than God does bother me.  It bothers me that they think there is no God and that all they have is this life.  It bothers me even more that they have probably heard the gospel and denied Christ, therefore being doomed to an eternity in satans pit.
> 
> The bottom line is that they know God is real and he is coming back or they wouldnt spend all their time trying to think up arguments and twisting words to make people think that God isnt real.
> 
> ...




Holy Cow.


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2011)

crbrumbelow,

I'm less concerned with whether  God is real or not than I am that there are people who vote and teach children and are charged with shaping society who believe in talking donkeys.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 5, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> The well thought out statements of people who think they know more than God does bother me.  It bothers me that they think there is no God and that all they have is this life.  It bothers me even more that they have probably heard the gospel and denied Christ, therefore being doomed to an eternity in satans pit.
> 
> The bottom line is that they know God is real and he is coming back or they wouldnt spend all their time trying to think up arguments and twisting words to make people think that God isnt real.
> 
> ...


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 5, 2011)

We all have to realize that even though this is an atheist subforumn where it seems that you could say what you wanted to about God, These are Christian mods who bounce for a christian based forumn. So they rightfully will not tolerate mockery of their God.  So therefore, I hope all atheist posters will be careful about this. I would hate to see anyone lose their posting privledges. I still hate that the other couple of guys lost theirs.


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## crbrumbelow (Jan 5, 2011)

The great thing is that one day ALL will know that He is real.  

You can choose to know Him in this life and live eternally in heaven.

Php 2:10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 
Php 2:11  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 


Or you can choose to deny and still know He is Lord but spend eternity in he//.

Rom 14:11  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 
Rom 14:12  So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 


The only thing sad is the fact that there are those that choose to die the second death.

Paul had to be brought extremely low to come to the will of God.  All I am doing is praying that God will touch you in some way; whether through reading the word on these posts or in some life experience.  

Remember,,at the moment of untimely death, even the atheist will cry out "Oh God" in some form or fashion.  Then it is quite possibly too late.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 5, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> It was an acknowledgment that he - a thinker with a much sharper mind than, say, Maher's - didn't know everything.



Oddly, Maher's main point in Religulous is "I just don't know, but neither do you".  I guess if you'd watched it instead of relying on preconceived notions you would know this.


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## atlashunter (Jan 5, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Oddly, Maher's main point in Religulous is "I just don't know, but neither do you".  I guess if you'd watched it instead of relying on preconceived notions you would know this.



I think the shot at Maher has more to do with him calling her out when she was on his show than anything else.


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## pnome (Jan 6, 2011)

Meh..

We have our fair share of pompous blowhards.  I'm sure I give off that impression to a few people myself.


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## atlashunter (Jan 6, 2011)

This pretty well sums up the situation between atheists and theists.


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## stringmusic (Jan 6, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> How ironic that atheists would be chastised for not knowing everything on this particular thread.



Did you re-read the thread I gave a link to? That pretty much sums it up, an atheist doesnt know everything, therefor, an atheist must go back and forth on everything because he/she must use a different worldview on each individual situation that they works with thier argument for that particular time, because they have no point of reference. Arrogance in my book.


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## stringmusic (Jan 6, 2011)

Ridge Walker said:


> Just because we don't exactly know or understand these things does not mean that a God intervened.
> 
> RW



so everything is just relative or subjective?


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## stringmusic (Jan 6, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Holy Cow.



I didnt think you thought anything could be Holy?


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## atlashunter (Jan 6, 2011)

Arrogance in my book is claiming to know something you don't, then chastising others who don't claim to know everything for not knowing everything.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 6, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Oddly, Maher's main point in Religulous is "I just don't know, but neither do you".  I guess if *you*'d watched it instead of relying on preconceived notions you would know this.



Your use of pronouns is incorrect.  That was not my comment, but the author of the article.  "You" should be "She".  I assume she did see it.

But since we are talking movies now, here is one from "Tommy Boy": "I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's _hiney_, but I'd rather take a butcher's word for it."


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 6, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> This pretty well sums up the situation between atheists and theists.


 I am Christian, and I see this to be true, and a comical illustration


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## VisionCasting (Jan 6, 2011)

*Incorrect.*



lazybate said:


> You sir have no idea what you are talking about. Atheist never profess to know everything. We just understand that there is no such thing as magic. What is the basis of your comment, that we should pray more?



Negative all around, sir.  

My quote from the article highlights that one of the greatest thinkers in Christianity too admitted a certain lack of knowledge about the subject.  Give it a re-read.  You can't miss that if you leave your emotion to the side.

The reason I cited that quote is that it highlights that *no one*, atheist or Christian alike, knows all.  That omniscience alone is left to God.  

PS - There is such a thing as magic.  I've seen David Blane and Copperfield.  To quote another Woody's atheist "words mean things".  If your intent is to say that nothing can ever, will ever, nor has ever (and I mean EVER) happened outside the bounds of the natural order(laws) I would say with all certainty that none of us (not you, not me, not even Nic) are in a position to make that statement.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 6, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I didnt think you thought anything could be Holy?



Uh oh.  He's gone Hindu.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 6, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Your use of pronouns is incorrect.  That was not my comment, but the author of the article.  "You" should be "She".  I assume she did see it.



Ah, my mistake.  I glanced and thought it was your words.  
So, I assume SHE didn't watch the film due to the ignorant statement SHE made.



VisionCasting said:


> But since we are talking movies now, here is one from "Tommy Boy": "I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's _hiney_, but I'd rather take a butcher's word for it."



I thought the bible was tried in the fiery furnace.  What are you afraid of?   Just watch it.   It's not that long and Maher is hilarious.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 6, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> I thought the bible was tried in the fiery furnace.  What are you afraid of?   Just watch it.   It's not that long and Maher is hilarious.



I fear only wasting my time. It is the only nonreplenishable resource of man.  I've seen Maher and he isn't worth the investment of 2hrs.  He's an idle pursuit.


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## ambush80 (Jan 6, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> I fear only wasting my time. It is the only nonreplenishable resource of man.  I've seen Maher and he isn't worth the investment of 2hrs.  He's an idle pursuit.




During eternity with your God, the time you spent watching the movie will be less than a blink of an eye.


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## ambush80 (Jan 6, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Uh oh.  He's gone Hindu.




Are you mocking me?


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## VisionCasting (Jan 6, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> During eternity with your God, the time you spent watching the movie will be less than a blink of an eye.



While true, I intend to make the most of my short time here.  The days they are wicked.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 6, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> While true, I intend to make the most of my short time here.  The days they are wicked.



Wow you must keep very busy then.  I bet it's a real sacrifice to find the time to post on the internet so much.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 6, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Wow you must keep very busy then.  I bet it's a real sacrifice to find the time to post on the internet so much.



Multitasking.


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## Achilles Return (Jan 7, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> A warnin` to both sides. Mockery will not be tolerated. Neither will blasphemy.



What are you defining blasphemy as?


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## Achilles Return (Jan 7, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> None of this happens without miraculous intervention.



Prove it?


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## Achilles Return (Jan 7, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> The well thought out statements of people who think they know more than God does bother me.  It bothers me that they think there is no God and that all they have is this life.  It bothers me even more that they have probably heard the gospel and denied Christ, therefore being doomed to an eternity in satans pit.
> 
> The bottom line is that they know God is real and he is coming back or they wouldnt spend all their time trying to think up arguments and twisting words to make people think that God isnt real.
> 
> ...



Speaking of Arrogance^

Please don't speak for me. In fact, please don't speak for any atheist. It's insulting to presume you know what's going on in anyone's head other than your own. The reason I do not believe in a god is because I have absolutely no reason to. And for you to "pray" that I have an extremely bad experience so I can be lured into your belief system - well frankly, that's pathetic. Almost immoral in my opinion. 

Enjoy the rest of your night.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 7, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> Prove it?



Ipso facto.


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## Achilles Return (Jan 9, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Ipso facto.



The arrogance of atheism indeed.


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## Nicodemus (Jan 10, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> What are you defining blasphemy as?





There is no need to ask me. You know what blasphemy is. 

I`m not gonna debate this with any of you, Christians or athiest, either one.


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## gtparts (Jan 10, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> Speaking of Arrogance^
> 
> Please don't speak for me. In fact, please don't speak for any atheist. It's insulting to presume you know what's going on in anyone's head other than your own. The reason I do not believe in a god is because I have absolutely no reason to. And for you to "pray" that I have an extremely bad experience so I can be lured into your belief system - well frankly, that's pathetic. Almost immoral in my opinion.
> 
> Enjoy the rest of your night.



Better that you have a negative experience that causes you to turn to God than to conclude this earthly life in relative comfort and alienated from God.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 10, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> I pray that He brings you to a new level of low so that you have no choice but to believe and live for Him.  I pray that he breaks your heart in a way that only He can fill it back up.



Can you be specific about the things you wish for us (in our eventual best interest, I understand)?

Cancer?  Bankruptcy?  Traumatic amputation of a limb?  House fire?  What is it that you'd like to see happen to me so that I may grow spiritually?


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## atlashunter (Jan 10, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Can you be specific about the things you wish for us (in our eventual best interest, I understand)?
> 
> Cancer?  Bankruptcy?  Traumatic amputation of a limb?  House fire?  What is it that you'd like to see happen to me so that I may grow spiritually?



Unfortunately this isn't the first time I've heard a christian pray this same kind of prayer to bring in a "lost sheep". And they have the nerve to ask where we get our morality.


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## stringmusic (Jan 10, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Unfortunately this isn't the first time I've heard a christian pray this same kind of prayer to bring in a "lost sheep". And they have the nerve to ask where we get our morality.



This is simple, from your or any other atheistic perspective, this life is all that an atheist has, so of course one would not want anything thats not considered enjoyable to happen to them in this life. To the Christian, having something happen, thats not so enjoyable, would be delightfully taken in this life to have eternal life with the One who we were created by. Its actually very loving in this sense, although I don't take you will see it that way.


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## stringmusic (Jan 10, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Can you be specific about the things you wish for us (in our eventual best interest, I understand)?
> 
> Cancer?  Bankruptcy?  Traumatic amputation of a limb?  House fire?  What is it that you'd like to see happen to me so that I may grow spiritually?



Nothing specific, anything that would change your eternal course. I truly hope that nothing bad or evil happens to you or anybody else, I hope thats not what it takes. see post #69


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## atlashunter (Jan 10, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> This is simple, from your or any other atheistic perspective, this life is all that an atheist has, so of course one would not want anything thats not considered enjoyable to happen to them in this life. To the Christian, having something happen, thats not so enjoyable, would be delightfully taken in this life to have eternal life with the One who we were created by. Its actually very loving in this sense, although I don't take you will see it that way.



Yeah I get the rationalization for it. "It's for your own good that I'm wishing tragedy and misery on you." I just don't agree with the rationalization. Why not just pray that God reveal himself in a way that could leave no room for doubt? That would be more effective in convincing someone than striking them with bad things that happen to believers and non-believers alike. What kind of evidence is that? This kind of wishing bad on people comes off as more of a wish to be able to point the finger and say "Told ya so!" and gloat at another's misfortune than a genuine concern for the atheist's soul. This is spite cloaked as altruism.


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## ambush80 (Jan 10, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> This is simple, from your or any other atheistic perspective, this life is all that an atheist has, so of course one would not want anything thats not considered enjoyable to happen to them in this life. To the Christian, having something happen, thats not so enjoyable, would be delightfully taken in this life to have eternal life with the One who we were created by. Its actually very loving in this sense, although I don't take you will see it that way.



That's why it's such a good opiate. 

I don't have any problem with things happening for no reason.   I've witnessed that things happen for no reason, except for reasons I make up.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 10, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Yeah I get the rationalization for it. "It's for your own good that I'm wishing tragedy and misery on you." I just don't agree with the rationalization. Why not just pray that God reveal himself in a way that could leave no room for doubt? That would be more effective in convincing someone than striking them with bad things that happen to believers and non-believers alike. What kind of evidence is that? This kind of wishing bad on people comes off as more of a wish to be able to point the finger and say "Told ya so!" and gloat at another's misfortune than a genuine concern for the atheist's soul. This is spite cloaked as altruism.



It's because God loves you and he moves in mysterious ways, my prediction.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 10, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Nothing specific, anything that would change your eternal course. I truly hope that nothing bad or evil happens to you or anybody else, I hope thats not what it takes.



Thanks!!!


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## gtparts (Jan 10, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Yeah I get the rationalization for it. "It's for your own good that I'm wishing tragedy and misery on you." I just don't agree with the rationalization. Why not just pray that God reveal himself in a way that could leave no room for doubt? That would be more effective in convincing someone than striking them with bad things that happen to believers and non-believers alike. What kind of evidence is that? This kind of wishing bad on people comes off as more of a wish to be able to point the finger and say "Told ya so!" and gloat at another's misfortune than a genuine concern for the atheist's soul. This is spite cloaked as altruism.



There is no point in that prayer. God requires each to exercise the faith that He has given them. His revelation is complete as regards His plan of salvation. All that is required is available to everyone except the "hearing of the Word" which is the responsibility of His followers to implement at His direction. You have heard, but not listened. You are without excuse. He is not committed to convincing you with proofs, but He is quite adamant about you trusting Him to be reconciled to Him through His Son..


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## gtparts (Jan 10, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> It's because God loves you and he moves in mysterious ways, my prediction.



No big mystery, really. Just check out my last post.


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## atlashunter (Jan 10, 2011)

gtparts said:


> There is no point in that prayer. God requires each to exercise the faith that He has given them. His revelation is complete as regards His plan of salvation. All that is required is available to everyone except the "hearing of the Word" which is the responsibility of His followers to implement at His direction. You have heard, but not listened. You are without excuse. He is not committed to convincing you with proofs, but He is quite adamant about you trusting Him to be reconciled to Him through His Son..



Yeah it's going to take more than that to sell me. Any one can make the same claim about any religion. The bible is full of claims of God revealing himself to men by way of proofs so let's not pretend he is above doing it.

When you consider how vast and amazing the universe is, if that was created by a conscious being and if that being wanted you to know them, it could be done in such a way that would leave no room for doubt if there was an intention to leave no room for doubt. This nonsense of whispering in one mans ear and to give everyone else the message is far too convenient and self serving for the man delivering the message to take seriously. If that is all it takes for you to believe then there is no reason you shouldn't be believing pretty much anything you hear.


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## stringmusic (Jan 10, 2011)

> If that is all it takes for you to believe then there is no reason you shouldn't be believing pretty much anything you hear.



This quote seems to fit here, "When a Man stops believing in God he doesn't then believe in nothing, he believes anything." G.K. Chesterton


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## atlashunter (Jan 10, 2011)

That's right on par with your signature.


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## stringmusic (Jan 10, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> That's right on par with your signature.



Thanks, par is a good score.


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## afterfire6942 (Jan 18, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Holy Cow.





x1000


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## gtparts (Jan 18, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Yeah it's going to take more than that to sell me. Any one can make the same claim about any religion. The bible is full of claims of God revealing himself to men by way of proofs so let's not pretend he is above doing it.
> 
> When you consider how vast and amazing the universe is, if that was created by a conscious being and if that being wanted you to know them, it could be done in such a way that would leave no room for doubt if there was an intention to leave no room for doubt. This nonsense of whispering in one mans ear and to give everyone else the message is far too convenient and self serving for the man delivering the message to take seriously. If that is all it takes for you to believe then there is no reason you shouldn't be believing pretty much anything you hear.



Not selling anything. What is given freely can not be bought anyway. No one has ever had enough resources to buy their way into relationship with God.

You are right, in that God could have chosen to make Himself known to all people in such a way as to leave no doubt. He simply did not do it that way. Just as there are those who love God, there are those who do not. God has decided that He will favor those who come to Him in faith through Jesus. I didn't make the rules. I'm just passing them along. 

I am curious as to how my telling anyone, you included, what I have had revealed to me of God's truth, is in any way self-serving. It benefits me not one whit. God has directed Christ-followers to spread the word that He loves the lost and has a plan to redeem them from the rightful punishment they have earned by their sin. It pleases Him for us to do that. I seek to please Him because I love Him. I am sad for you, since you have rejected His offer, but I will lose no sleep. If I lose sleep, it is for those who have not heard.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 18, 2011)

gtparts said:


> If I lose sleep, it is for those who have not heard.



Great post.


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## atlashunter (Jan 18, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Not selling anything. What is given freely can not be bought anyway. No one has ever had enough resources to buy their way into relationship with God.
> 
> You are right, in that God could have chosen to make Himself known to all people in such a way as to leave no doubt. He simply did not do it that way. Just as there are those who love God, there are those who do not. God has decided that He will favor those who come to Him in faith through Jesus. I didn't make the rules. I'm just passing them along.
> 
> I am curious as to how my telling anyone, you included, what I have had revealed to me of God's truth, is in any way self-serving. It benefits me not one whit. God has directed Christ-followers to spread the word that He loves the lost and has a plan to redeem them from the rightful punishment they have earned by their sin. It pleases Him for us to do that. I seek to please Him because I love Him. I am sad for you, since you have rejected His offer, but I will lose no sleep. If I lose sleep, it is for those who have not heard.



You're selling a belief system. Maybe because you really do hold the beliefs yourself and feel good when someone buys it, maybe for some other reason. It is self serving to propagate your religion because christians (the true believing ones) think they will be rewarded in heaven for it or because they fear disobeying the commandment to spread it. It is particularly self serving for those who have throughout human history made their livelihood by creating or controlling myths in their favor. Any student of history knows this to be true.

You admit God could have done things differently but no he really did whisper the secret of himself in your ear to share with the rest of us. Awfully convenient for those selling the myth isn't it? It's almost as if men might make this sort of thing up for their own benefit. In fact you probably believe that very thing about all other religions. Maybe you're gullible enough to buy that from other men seeking your mind, I'll pass. I've heard, so you can sleep well.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 18, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> I pray that He brings you to a new level of low so that you have no choice but to believe and live for Him.  I pray that he breaks your heart



Bumped for crbrumbelow to come back and tell us what sort of tragedy would be best for our development.


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## The Original Rooster (Jan 18, 2011)

Hey fellows, make sure you read the first page of the article also. The link takes you to page two. I find it fascinating that an atheist briefly writes about her father's spiritual journey into having a better relationship with God.


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## crbrumbelow (Jan 18, 2011)

The tragedy is that if you dont believe and trust Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, you will be cast into the lake of fire.  I am not praying for anyone to get cancer or break a leg or bankruptcy or any other ill will.  What I pray is that God will do His will in a way that will open your eyes that He IS real.  You either serve one or the other.  God or satan.  You have a choice.  First the death then the judgment.


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## gtparts (Jan 18, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You're selling a belief system. Maybe because you really do hold the beliefs yourself and feel good when someone buys it, maybe for some other reason. It is self serving to propagate your religion because christians (the true believing ones) think they will be rewarded in heaven for it or because they fear disobeying the commandment to spread it. It is particularly self serving for those who have throughout human history made their livelihood by creating or controlling myths in their favor. Any student of history knows this to be true.
> 
> You admit God could have done things differently but no he really did whisper the secret of himself in your ear to share with the rest of us. Awfully convenient for those selling the myth isn't it? It's almost as if men might make this sort of thing up for their own benefit. In fact you probably believe that very thing about all other religions. Maybe you're gullible enough to buy that from other men seeking your mind, I'll pass. I've heard, so you can sleep well.



So, tell me how I benefit. You have speculated, but truthfully, there is nothing in it for me. For the Christian, there are no special rewards for doing what one knows is pleasing to God. As an heir, I will share whatever is granted to an heir, but only because God has reconciled me to Himself and adopted me as a son. Please tell me what it is you think I will be rewarded with.
What price do you think anyone as given me in exchange for what I have freely given them? You have not provided any evidence of an attempt to sell anything, nor can you. The repeated rejection of God's free gift is noted in heaven. I sure many will rest with a clean conscience, that have reached out to you. No problem here. You are on your own.


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## atlashunter (Jan 18, 2011)

gtparts said:


> So, tell me how I benefit. You have speculated, but truthfully, there is nothing in it for me. For the Christian, there are no special rewards for doing what one knows is pleasing to God. As an heir, I will share whatever is granted to an heir, but only because God has reconciled me to Himself and adopted me as a son. Please tell me what it is you think I will be rewarded with.
> What price do you think anyone as given me in exchange for what I have freely given them? You have not provided any evidence of an attempt to sell anything, nor can you. The repeated rejection of God's free gift is noted in heaven. I sure many will rest with a clean conscience, that have reached out to you. No problem here. You are on your own.



You go to church don't you? Do they not teach you to spread the gospel? Do they not teach you that Jesus instructed all of his followers to spread the good news and bring in the harvest? Have you never heard a preacher or Sunday school teacher lecture you about your responsibility to save lost souls? I can't tell you what it is because I can't read your mind but you obviously get something out of it or else you wouldn't bother doing it.


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## atlashunter (Jan 18, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> The tragedy is that if you dont believe and trust Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, you will be cast into the lake of fire.  I am not praying for anyone to get cancer or break a leg or bankruptcy or any other ill will.  What I pray is that God will do His will in a way that will open your eyes that He IS real.  You either serve one or the other.  God or satan.  You have a choice.  First the death then the judgment.



More delusion. The reality of the world around us contradicts the reality described in your holy book in many ways. It doesn't take much brain power to see it. It does take a willingness to not let your mind be controlled by fear though. I hope for your own sake you one day find that courage within yourself and stop wasting the precious time you have clinging to delusions and false hopes.


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## crbrumbelow (Jan 19, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> More delusion. The reality of the world around us contradicts the reality described in your holy book in many ways. It doesn't take much brain power to see it. It does take a willingness to not let your mind be controlled by fear though. I hope for your own sake you one day find that courage within yourself and stop wasting the precious time you have clinging to delusions and false hopes.



You need to read the book.  Better yet come listen to my preacher.  There are no contradictions only false twisted translation by  lost people "practicing" religion and false doctrine and people like several on here that twist the word to mean what they want it to mean by leaving out bits and pieces where they see fit.  

Like I said, its sad to see people choose to deny God.  He did give a free will so believe how you want.

Remember, first the death then the judgment.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 19, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> The reality of the world around us contradicts the reality described in your holy book in many ways.





crbrumbelow said:


> You need to read the book.



The more I study the Bible the more I understand how incredibly insightful it  is about the human condition.  It doesn't contradict the world around us, rather it brings it into perspective.

Sure you can play 'Bible darts' and pick a verse out of context to support any misgivings you have.  That takes no intellect.  But reading, interpreting and understanding the book as a whole will give you not only knowledge, but wisdom.


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## stringmusic (Jan 19, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You're selling a belief system. Maybe because you really do hold the beliefs yourself and feel good when someone buys it, maybe for some other reason. It is self serving to propagate your religion because christians (the true believing ones) think they will be rewarded in heaven for it or because they fear disobeying the commandment to spread it.



Neither the rewards nor the any fear makes me tell others about Christ, its love, something atheism has ZERO grasp on. 





> It is particularly self serving for those who have throughout human history made their livelihood by creating or controlling myths in their favor.



Yea, Paul certainly made his livelihood creating and controlling, its completely obvious in 2 Cor.

 I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches

he really got'em good didnt he?





> It's almost as if men might make this sort of thing up for their own benefit.


Read above and understand, this would also be a good answer to your question to me in another thread on what makes the prophets of the Bible different from other writers in that time period




> In fact you probably believe that very thing about all other religions. Maybe you're gullible enough to buy that from other men seeking your mind, I'll pass. I've heard, so you can sleep well.



Another fantastic G.K Chesterton quote comes to mind after reading this sad outlook on life and God.....

"A man does not know what he is saying until he knows what he is not saying." 
Gilbert K. Chesterton 

Two actually, this one seems to fit perfectly in this forum....

"There is a case for telling the truth; there is a case for avoiding the scandal; but there is no possible defense for the man who tells the scandal, but does not tell the truth." 
G.K. Chesterton


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## VisionCasting (Jan 19, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Yea, Paul certainly made his livelihood creating and controlling, its completely obvious in 2 Cor.
> 
> I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches
> 
> he really got'em good didnt he?



It brings to mind the old saying - "It isn't rare that a man will lie to save his life, but seldom will a man lie so that it will be taken away".


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## atlashunter (Jan 20, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> This quote seems to fit here, "When a Man stops believing in God he doesn't then believe in nothing, he believes anything." G.K. Chesterton





stringmusic said:


> Another fantastic G.K Chesterton quote comes to mind after reading this sad outlook on life and God.....
> 
> "A man does not know what he is saying until he knows what he is not saying."
> Gilbert K. Chesterton
> ...





Yeah string those are fantastic.


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## ambush80 (Jan 21, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Yeah string those are fantastic.



that's funny.


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## JFS (Jun 11, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Oddly, Maher's main point in Religulous is "I just don't know, but neither do you".



I just caught some of Religulous last night.  Pretty funny, and you are absolutely right-  he was very clear and said in no uncertain terms exactly that.


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## stringmusic (Jun 11, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Oddly, Maher's main point in Religulous is "I just don't know, but neither do you".  I guess if you'd watched it instead of relying on preconceived notions you would know this.



If he doesnt know, how does he know that I dont?


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## JFS (Jun 11, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> If he doesnt know, how does he know that I dont?



You don't have any secret knowledge.

(that I know of anyway)


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## vowell462 (Jun 12, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> If he doesnt know, how does he know that I dont?



Really? I mean, for real? Do you have knowledge of the subject? And Knowledge now.....not blind faith.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 12, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> If he doesnt know, how does he know that I dont?



Here's a quote from his powerful take at the end of Religulous.  If you're so inclined, by the way, just search for "Religulous ending" on youtube and you can see it for yourself.  I did edit one profanity in there, otherwise it's verbatim.



> Most people would think it's wonderful when someone says, "I'm willing, Lord! I'll do whatever you want me to do!" Except that since there are no gods actually talking to us, that void is filled in by people with their own corruptions and limitations and agendas. *And anyone who tells you they know, they just know what happens when you die, I promise you, you don't. How can I be so sure? Because I don't know, and you do not possess mental powers that I do not. *The only appropriate attitude for man to have about the big questions is not the arrogant certitude that is the hallmark of religion, but doubt. Doubt is humble, and that's what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting _stuff _dead wrong.


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## Asath (Jun 14, 2011)

So the Topic was the 'Arrogance of Atheism?'

And we got stuff like this:

From gtparts:  "God requires each to exercise the faith that He has given them. His revelation is complete as regards His plan of salvation. All that is required is available to everyone except the "hearing of the Word" which is the responsibility of His followers to implement at His direction. You have heard, but not listened. You are without excuse. He is not committed to convincing you with proofs, but He is quite adamant about you trusting Him to be reconciled to Him through His Son.."

God 'requires?  And only gives this particular "Hearing of the Word" to those who are somehow already in the loop'?  Does it not cross anyones mind that speaking for a purported 'God,' in his stead, if you will, is the very definition of arrogance?  Can they actually tell us that they, individually, have been in private conference with a deity, and were personally handed a responsibility to set the rest of us straight?  Wouldn't this be just the same as assuming the powers and responsibilities of this God, and endowing themselves as His spokesperson? God got "adamant"?  And who was there to hear it? That is going to take one long stretch of demonstration right there . . .       


And from crbrumbelow:  "The tragedy is that if you dont believe and trust Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, you will be cast into the lake of fire. "

There is a "lake of fire"?  Where?  The Cooper River, down in Jersey, used to catch fire now and then, and so did Lake Erie, before we cleaned those places up a bit, but it seems a bit arrogant to assume that such a thing exists eternally as a punishment for not agreeing with one particular outlook in the afterlife, then threaten folks with same for lacking one's own personal convictions.  For most of the thinking beings on the planet, the 'tragedy' is that there can be folks (a huge minority, by the way) who are so arrogant as to stand and threaten everyone else with pure fiction.    

And more of the same: gtparts: " . . . but only because God has reconciled me to Himself and adopted me as a son."

You are assuming the position of the Son of God?   ('Adopted' is such a weaseling sort of word, but the implication seems clear enough)?  And this doesn't hold even a sniff of arrogance?  

The Arrogance of the Religious seems to trump everything this side of Mulholland Drive.

Let's be serious here.  The argument that non-belief is purely materialistic falls down when the material benefits of belief are espoused, and if eternal life in the lap of a purely forgiven and edenic luxury is not a material aim then nothing else comes close.  It is proposed that any sin at all is of no consequence, in this world, if only one 'believes,' and then the ultimate eternal reward will still be delivered. But, if someone wished for a perfect ending, then living a perfect life in this world would have to be the only goal available, since 'forgiveness' of sins wouldn't play a part.  If your sins will all be 'forgiven' as a result of your 'belief,' then you have absolutely no incentive not to commit as many sins as you can.  All you are doing is forgiving yourselves ahead of time, on this earth, which seems not only a bit premature but also supremely arrogant.  (And to be honest, I don't see much even in your own particular version of this 'Bible' y'all go on about that supports this particular interpretation . . . )

A belief that one is superior, and holds a higher level of authority over one's fellow man, simply by 'believing' something or another, is the only thing that is without excuse.  And this God fella who spoke to only you is " . . . not committed to convincing you with proofs . . ."? And YOU are privy to just what this invisible force IS 'committed' to?  That attitude has arrogance written all over it.

I'm afraid that all I see on the atheism side is a pure rejection of that sort of fictional and superstition-based arrogance, and an honest, open-minded inquiry into the many unanswered questions, unburdened by ancient and purely irrelevant bias. 
'Belief' probably won't go completely extinct in my lifetime, no matter how much we spend on education, but it is fairly and correctly being eroded away by truth (in an ironic and perhaps proper parallel to evolution), and the numbers of the truly arrogant who hold 'faith' regardless of fact are dwindling.  Sooner or later even the dinosaurs went extinct, because the environment simply couldn't sustain them anymore, and hopefully by my grandchildren’s generation the last of the churches will have become quaint artifacts . . .


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## Spotlite (Jun 14, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Christian: I know how the universe and everything in it came to be. (Fill in creation story, talking snake, worldwide flood, 900 year old men, talking bush, man living in fish for 3 days, men and dinos living together, human sacrifice of gods son that is really the same god to himself so he can pay the price owed to himself for all the bad stuff people he created knowing they would do did, Jesus miracles, etc...) And if you believe what I'm telling you then you'll live forever after you die in another dimension that will be more pleasant than you could possibly ever imagine. BUT if you don't believe this then after you die you'll burn over and over and over again forever in a place that is more miserable than you can ever imagine!
> 
> Atheist: How do you know all this?
> 
> ...


I didnt read this entire thread, this post just stood out to me as I can see your point. I dont know why folks from either side beat their-self up with trying to prove what they do or do not believe in. Bottom line, christianity is an experience, thats something that no athiest or agnostic can take away or try to explain away from any christian, and no christian is going to convince any atheist or agnostic. Its simply laid out there and you as an individual have an option to grasp on to it or let it go. Its one thing to tell your story and why you believe the way you do, but the convincing is a whole new ball game that ends up with no win from either side. If your a christian, live your life as a christian and let your life do the talking for you, if your not, do the same, thats how you win people over.


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## ambush80 (Jun 14, 2011)

Spotlite said:


> I didnt read this entire thread, this post just stood out to me as I can see your point. I dont know why folks from either side beat their-self up with trying to prove what they do or do not believe in. Bottom line, christianity is an experience, thats something that no athiest or agnostic can take away or try to explain away from any christian, and no christian is going to convince any atheist or agnostic. Its simply laid out there and you as an individual have an option to grasp on to it or let it go. Its one thing to tell your story and why you believe the way you do, but the convincing is a whole new ball game that ends up with no win from either side. If your a christian, live your life as a christian and let your life do the talking for you, if your not, do the same, thats how you win people over.



Good post.


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