# Time to Stir the POT!  What's wrong with GA turkey season



## Belk (Apr 24, 2010)

Okay, I'm tired of the sorry Turkey management in GA!
 I want to stir the pot and get a discussion going on  "How we can improve the turkey hunting in our great state! Hatch numbers ( poults per hen) are down, Harvest  is down.  Let's hear your ideas & get'em gobblin again.

Here are couple of my Ideas:
1. reduce season by 2 weeks (April 1 to May 1)
2. One bird per day, 2 pre season ( no flock shooting)
3. stop hunting at  1 pm ( givem a rest)

Season starts to early in North GA and season length is putting to much pressure on birds and not gobblin like they should.
Possible split season  North & South zone?

What do you think?


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## Hawken2222 (Apr 24, 2010)

To me things are pretty good right now.  If I could see a couple of changes, it would be maybe one bird a day, as well as start having to tag birds.  Other than that, I think we have it pretty good here in GA.


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## MKW (Apr 24, 2010)

*...*

Personally, I think it's just fine the way it is. I've had more turkey action this season than I have in a long time. Birds seem to be plentiful down my way this year. I wish the state limit was 5...just cause I like killing them! 
I do, however, think they should issue tags, with the hunters name printed on them, one at a time. You kill one gobbler, you turn in your tag for a new one(up to 3 per hunter). That way, the state could keep better kill numbers.

Mike


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## struttin n ruttin (Apr 24, 2010)

Hawken2222 said:


> To me things are pretty good right now.  If I could see a couple of changes, it would be maybe one bird a day, as well as start having to tag birds.  Other than that, I think we have it pretty good here in GA.



I agree. The 2008 season produced a good poult hatch with lots of Jakes. They are now 2 year olds and are runnin everywhere. The reason we did not have good poult numbers this past season was because of the heavy May rains. Hopefully this season we will have another good hatch.


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## jdthayer (Apr 24, 2010)

*Couldn't have*

said it better myself. Tags would prevent some of the greedy people out there killing 4 or more a season when they could be getting a youngster into the sport. 
Semper FI!



MKW said:


> Personally, I think it's just fine the way it is. I've had more turkey action this season than I have in a long time. Birds seem to be plentiful down my way this year. I wish the state limit was 5...just cause I like killing them!
> I do, however, think they should issue tags, with the hunters name printed on them, one at a time. You kill one gobbler, you turn in your tag for a new one(up to 3 per hunter). That way, the state could keep better kill numbers.
> 
> Mike


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## Jody Hawk (Apr 24, 2010)

I think the state should have a split season where the mountains should open a week later and run a week longer. Other than that, leave everything else the way it is currently.


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## Unicoidawg (Apr 24, 2010)

Well if we're gonna stir the pot.......... I think there should be a fall season for HENS only, either with a bow or muzzleloader, no rifles and a limit of one. There are WAY to many hens and the gobblers don't have to compete for them. Many northern states have fall seasons and their spring seasons are as good or better than ours........ Thats my opinion, but it don't mean much.......


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## tom turkey 2x2 (Apr 24, 2010)

Nothing wrong with Ga. season, do wish we had check in like mo.


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## GA DAWG (Apr 24, 2010)

Tags want help! They are good for nothing but the honest hunter and they are already honest. Now a later start date and later closing in a Northern turkey zone would be great!


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## Dupree (Apr 24, 2010)

I see nothing wrong with it. Maybe 1 bird per day rule.


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## siberian1 (Apr 24, 2010)

We need Turkey Tags!!!!!


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## howl (Apr 24, 2010)

It starts too early. The start of the season should be after the peak of breeding activity. That's about it.


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## returntoarchery (Apr 24, 2010)

MKW said:


> I do, however, think they should issue tags, with the hunters name printed on them, one at a time. You kill one gobbler, you turn in your tag for a new one(up to 3 per hunter). That way, the state could keep better kill numbers.
> 
> Mike



Ditto.


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## drewpatt (Apr 24, 2010)

I like it just like it is. Maybe a hen in the fall.


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## turkeyed (Apr 24, 2010)

tags tags tags!  I would love to see hunters be required to afix a tag to turkeys.


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## PChunter (Apr 24, 2010)

nah, goes pretty good for me. Put your time in the woods and it will happen


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## Retired Army Guy (Apr 24, 2010)

Season is fine.  More habitat and less predators are what we need.  Timber, Timber Timber is what we need in the mountains!


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## deerslayer357 (Apr 24, 2010)

season is fine to me.... I've heard more turkeys this year than any previous year on our club.  I think we need to do some predator control before we start cutting season down personally.  The people that only get to hunt on the weekends already have very limited time to hunt, so I don't see cutting it in half again.  just my opinion though.


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## Unicoidawg (Apr 24, 2010)

PChunter said:


> nah, goes pretty good for me. Put your time in the woods and it will happen



I put plenty of time in the woods and get my share......... some things can always be improved....



Retired Army Guy said:


> Season is fine.  More habitat and less predators are what we need.  Timber, Timber Timber is what we need in the mountains!



We don't need any more timber in the mountains........ what we need is some good timber management and fewer hens.... A few select cuts or burns here and there would work wonders. And yes I know our DNR has it's hands tied to an extent with the majority of the mountain WMA's being on Federal land


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## Big7 (Apr 24, 2010)

Nothing to do with the law...

I think the late cold weather and then turning hot on a dime threw them off where I hunt in Jefferson County..

We only saw a few hens and have done well there for the last 5-6 years.


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## Mosin (Apr 24, 2010)

I like the idea of a one bird per day but keep the limit at 3.  Also the tags would be fine with me.  A fall season for hens would be cool but I'm in deer mode then.


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## Roostem33 (Apr 25, 2010)

I would maybe like to see Tags also, and i would like to see the season extended one week and have a week break in the middle of the season to give em a rest.


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## Ben Athens (Apr 25, 2010)

I like it just the way it is.


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## Tom&Jake (Apr 25, 2010)

Its fine how it is. I doubt taking one hen outta the flock would help much. And tags aren't gonna make a unhonest person kill any less turkeys. Just my 2 cents


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## Unicoidawg (Apr 25, 2010)

Tom&Jake said:


> Its fine how it is. I doubt taking one hen outta the flock would help much. And tags aren't gonna make a unhonest person kill any less turkeys. Just my 2 cents



One would not help, but if a couple 1000 took one it would do wonders......... Also I agree on the tags...... kinda like our current deer tagging/nontagging system works.......


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## chase870 (Apr 25, 2010)

Kill every preadator you can.


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## Tom&Jake (Apr 25, 2010)

Unicoidawg said:


> One would not help, but if a couple 1000 took one it would do wonders......... Also I agree on the tags...... kinda like our current deer tagging/nontagging system works.......



Then you would be killing hens that are hatching our poults which would = less gobblers to kill.


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## Nicodemus (Apr 25, 2010)

I like it the way it is now. The state has done a good job with Georgia turkeys.


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## Unicoidawg (Apr 25, 2010)

Tom&Jake said:


> Then you would be killing hens that are hatching our poults which would = less gobblers to kill.



Go to some of the Northern states..... ie Ohio, West Virginia and see if they have a shortage of turkeys.......... Missouri is considered by MANY to have the finest turkey hunting in the USA and they have a fall season?????Do they know something we don't??? Those places are LOADED with birds and have fall seasons. Taking a few hens isn't gonna hurt the overall numbers. It would create more competition to breed amongst the gobblers......... But it doesn't matter because our DNR wouldn't ever go for that and you have way to many folks who think it will hurt the Spring hunting.


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## bowboy1989 (Apr 25, 2010)

I think the season is just fine and so are the turkeys


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## gsubo (Apr 25, 2010)

Season is fine..

If there was some way for the DNR to increase predator erradication that would help out tremendously.  Coyote numbers seem to be way up the last few years.


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## Steve Thompson (Apr 25, 2010)

Seasons are ok however a short fall season may help increase retail sales. I have no problems with it the way it is. I also think the state has done a good job.
  Preadator control, keeping coons & possums down would help a little. I think the cayote has changed gobbler patterns a little in the last 15 years.


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## dusty80 (Apr 25, 2010)

Season is fine the way it is. Predators are a major problem down here in SE Ga. That and too many hunters and not enough "turkey woods". Turkeys can't survive in 3000 acres of nothing but 3 year old planted pines. Turkey hunting is becoming what deer has. Everyone and their brother goes to wal mart and buys a box call and overnight they are a turkey hunter. It don't work like that.


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## ryanwhit (Apr 25, 2010)

Unicoidawg said:


> Go to some of the Northern states..... ie Ohio, West Virginia and see if they have a shortage of turkeys.......... Missouri is considered by MANY to have the finest turkey hunting in the USA




I don't propose to have the answers - in fact, I don't really have a suggestion.  I think it's fine the way it is, but I have never been to any of these states to turkey hunt, so I have no basis to compare.  

However, I do notice that these states have something that we don't.  Something that has nothing to do with turkey hunting.  They have strong fur markets, and as a result have lots of people who trap critters.  Coyotes, foxes, bobcats, coons, possums, and skunks are all fair game during trapping season.  There's someone running a trapline on most every farm.  

I don't see anything like that happening in GA ever.  Trapping is time consuming and expensive to get into, and with virtually no viable fur market, there's no incentive to do it.  I love to trap, but haven't put any in the ground in 2 yrs because I haven't had any extra time to do it.  There's just really not any incentive to do it except that you like to do it and you like the results of less predators.

I know we talk about predators a lot, and their effects on turkeys and other animals.  Of course, we are not unique in that we have predators in GA...it's just that many other states, mostly those to the north and northwest, have lots of trapping done.

Food for thought...


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## GAMHUNTER35 (Apr 25, 2010)

well i dont think the dnr needs to be cutting trees during turkey season on wmas


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## Ben Athens (Apr 25, 2010)

Other states do not have the number of deer hunters that Georgia has. Letting hunters shoot turkeys in the fall would cause a huge problem . 

Tags are for honest people and they cost money to print.

The money issue is the main reason the licesnes are done online now.

My 2 cents.


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## southGAlefty (Apr 25, 2010)

I think the season is pretty good like it is, I've only been turkey hunting the last 4 or 5 years but have enjoyed every one of them. 

I think the main problem is predation around here though, as some have mentioned before, an established fur market would work wonders for our GA turkeys. They say a coon will eat as many turkey nests as he can find in a day, the same goes for possums, coyotes, etc. If you have high predator numbers on the property you hunt during the spring, that could spell disaster for the next few turkey seasons. 

Another suggestion I have is that I wouldn't mind seeing the state open the season for the week of Thanksgiving and allow hunters to take 1 hen a piece. I believe this could potentially help the spring hunting here (without killing it!) and would allow us to hunt them in the spirit of Thanksgiving, the way turkey hunting was originally done.


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## vowell462 (Apr 25, 2010)

With the heat in Ga, I dont ever see a fur market. I also think a one hen per hunter in the fall will not harm the population at all. I think it would help the gobbler harvesting during the spring. As far as predators, all we can do is kill them as often as possible. And I agree with the north part of Ga starting a little later.


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## Nitro (Apr 25, 2010)

Reality- 

Georgia WRD doesn't manage for Turkeys........

Chances of getting the state to change the season parameters are slim to none.

Dead hens don't lay eggs. 

IF the state would do anything to improve hunting it would be this- 

Control burns on all state owned land and food plots planted on a regular basis. Develop a state funded program of planting Sawtooth and other oak trees on all suitable lands.


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## Nicodemus (Apr 25, 2010)

Andy, they might not manage turkeys, but they did an excellent job of bringin` the population back.


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## dominantpredator (Apr 25, 2010)

jdthayer said:


> said it better myself. Tags would prevent some of the greedy people out there killing 4 or more a season when they could be getting a youngster into the sport.
> Semper FI!



Tags are no good. Trust me. I will be the first to admit. Back in the 80's everyone, including myself, could take any deer to any processor and/or taxidermist, with a tag even if it wasn't filled out properly or dated for an earlier kill. I really see no reason for a change in our turkey season. We have one of the longest turkey seasons, we can kill 3 toms, and we can hunt up until roost. I have hunted Missouri where you have to be out of the woods before 1:00 pm. Here in Georgia, I have killed Toms on the last day of the season that was all henned up. Getting out of the woods earlier, shortening our turkey season, and many other tactics will not help the gobbling at all. It will however, limit the # of birds taken and ultimately lead to more poaching.


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## hoppie (Apr 25, 2010)

Best year I have ever seen, but I am in Middle GA and not North. Could do zones like deer season and start one later. I say don't change a thing otherwise


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## Nitro (Apr 25, 2010)

Nicodemus said:


> Andy, they might not manage turkeys, but they did an excellent job of bringin` the population back.



Agreed. 

The state CAN do some things to keep the population sustained. My ideas are just a few. Habitat is most important at this time.


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## BOSSOFTHEWOODS (Apr 25, 2010)

Last Saturday I was on Oconee NF & heard more birds gobble, & gobble more,than any single morning I've been in the past 10 yrs of hunting public land. 
As for our forest service, they are in it for the money. Timber management is done on the most productive areas for raising pulpwood. Look at the money spent to mark an area for cutting, burns (saw a 1000+ acres burnt 2 weeks ago, with a crowd of employees & equipment, in the middle of nesting for the hens no less)& I'm sure some is spent on research. Wildlife & our enjoyment takes a back seat to $$$.
As for predators, 10 yrs ago yotes & armidillos were just getting a foot hold here. If you want more birds & other game pratice pred control, but remember it is an on going thing. As prey numbers rise so do pred numbers,just a cycle of nature.
As for the seasons, this year was timed just right in my neck of the woods. Some years it seems to be off ,but the breeding cycle happens according to hours of daylight, gobbling frequency can have a lot to do with weather which makes us hunters think it is late or early some years. Dont know when peak of hatching is up in northern Ga. as I dont get up there enough. Maybe it is later. 
Now as for how life would be in my perfect world( Im a dreamer)  : Turkey limit would be 2, with ability to purchase a 3rd & 100% spent on purchaseing land & planting for wildlife , 1st weekend of season youth hunters only, deer the same on both counts : no burning or cutting of public owned land during season, 50% of profit must be for wildlife improvement, who ever buys & cuts the timber must clean up cuttings left behind : more archery only areas : all those found guilty of any game violation should include 2 days of cleanup on public land : & last but not least ,all the toms would think my calling is the sexiest hen out there(dreamer ,remember)


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## Nitro (Apr 25, 2010)

You have my vote!!!!!!!!

Great post!!



BOSSOFTHEWOODS said:


> Last Saturday I was on Oconee NF & heard more birds gobble, & gobble more,than any single morning I've been in the past 10 yrs of hunting public land.
> As for our forest service, they are in it for the money. Timber management is done on the most productive areas for raising pulpwood. Look at the money spent to mark an area for cutting, burns (saw a 1000+ acres burnt 2 weeks ago, with a crowd of employees & equipment, in the middle of nesting for the hens no less)& I'm sure some is spent on research. Wildlife & our enjoyment takes a back seat to $$$.
> As for predators, 10 yrs ago yotes & armidillos were just getting a foot hold here. If you want more birds & other game pratice pred control, but remember it is an on going thing. As prey numbers rise so do pred numbers,just a cycle of nature.
> As for the seasons, this year was timed just right in my neck of the woods. Some years it seems to be off ,but the breeding cycle happens according to hours of daylight, gobbling frequency can have a lot to do with weather which makes us hunters think it is late or early some years. Dont know when peak of hatching is up in northern Ga. as I dont get up there enough. Maybe it is later.
> Now as for how life would be in my perfect world( Im a dreamer)  : Turkey limit would be 2, with ability to purchase a 3rd & 100% spent on purchaseing land & planting for wildlife , 1st weekend of season youth hunters only, deer the same on both counts : no burning or cutting of public owned land during season, 50% of profit must be for wildlife improvement, who ever buys & cuts the timber must clean up cuttings left behind : more archery only areas : all those found guilty of any game violation should include 2 days of cleanup on public land : & last but not least ,all the toms would think my calling is the sexiest hen out there(dreamer ,remember)


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## Unicoidawg (Apr 25, 2010)

Ben Athens said:


> Other states do not have the number of deer hunters that Georgia has. Letting hunters shoot turkeys in the fall would cause a huge problem .
> 
> Tags are for honest people and they cost money to print.
> 
> ...




That's the MAIN reason I said only bow or muzzleloaders ONLY..... that would limit a lot of people. Of course your gonna have those who are gonna shoot what they want, when they want. Also I agree with the previous poster that we have a very big problem with coyotes, foxes...etc..etc.... But to be honest all the places I have hunted up north I have yet to see or hear any of the landowners speak of trappers on there places. Does that mean they aren't there....... nope, but I have yet to see them.....


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## rutandstrut (Apr 25, 2010)

You may have to apply for a Trappers License to be Legal doing this. They are very effective on reducing Coyotes. Take a Right of Way Drain Pipe and cut it in half, Use an auger to Drill or Dig a Hole at approx. 30 Degrees that will fit the Pipe Diameter, Make the Hole Deep enough so that at least half the Pipe will slide down into the hole. Insert half of the Drain Pipe into the hole, Pack Dirt around Pipe to firm it up. Bait the Trap by putting a Deer Carcass or Hog Carcass in the Pipe. Once the Coyotes find the trap, a Coyote will crawl in to eat carcass and won't be able to back out. Other Coyote(s) will crawl in to eat their partner who already succumbed to the trap. I would advise not getting down wind, these traps can get pretty ripe! Once the trap gets full, you can pull it out and move it a few feet awayand reset it. A few of these placed around your property should help reduce or virtually eliminate the Coyote Population on your property!


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## mayberryjohn4 (Apr 25, 2010)

yotes, yotes and more yotes. since they arrived i have seen less turkeys and deer.


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## CPage (Apr 25, 2010)

Nitro said:


> Reality-
> 
> Dead hens don't lay eggs.
> 
> Control burns on all state owned land and food plots planted on a regular basis. Develop a state funded program of planting Sawtooth and other oak trees on all suitable lands.



You said it brother.  Hardwoods in my part of the woods are getting clear cut and replanted with loblolly pines.  You can get a decent stand of loblollys in 15 to 20 years and thats why they do it, but hardwoods take time to mature and grow and produce and fewer people are replanting the hardwoods that get cut with hardwoods.


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## Brad C. (Apr 25, 2010)

Well I am not from Georgia, but I am from MO which is probably acre per acre one of the best states if not the best turkey hunting state in the US.  I'll shed some of my conservation aspects to what I see in the state of Georgia.  

First off, I think you guys have an abundence of WMA places spread throughout the state.  There is over 100 of these WMA's spread out across the state with lots of these being over 5000 acres or more.  Your state has done as good if not better than most any other state at providing these WMA lands for the public with great access for the whole state to use which is what I have to say great job by the state officials of Georgia and the conservation folks as well.  

I honestly think that Georgia like MO is rolling with an abundence of turkeys every year that seems to replenish the numbers on an annual basis.  Georgia with its long turkey season and their 3 bird limit seems to be doing ok as is.  Now I believe you guys don't have a fall season there in Georgia due to the fact the way your spring season is set up and you guys can correct me if I am wrong about the no fall turkey hunting in the state of Georgia.  Now if there are those that would like to see Georgia go to a fall turkey season, then my guess is that the long spring season would need to be cut back to either 3 weeks to maybe a month at the most, and the 3 bird limit would need to be reduced to 2 birds.  But that would be up to the masses of turkey hunters if they were wanting to try and change this.  You could also if you wanted to try to maybe start a fall season there by maybe stopping hunting at 1:00PM like we do here in MO to help do so.  We are only allowed 2 gobbler/jakes/bearded hens in the 3 week spring season and then in the fall we can kill 2 birds of either sex.


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## Unicoidawg (Apr 25, 2010)

Brad C. said:


> Well I am not from Georgia, but I am from MO which is probably acre per acre one of the best states if not the best turkey hunting state in the US.  I'll shed some of my conservation aspects to what I see in the state of Georgia.
> 
> First off, I think you guys have an abundence of WMA places spread throughout the state.  There is over 100 of these WMA's spread out across the state with lots of these being over 5000 acres or more.  Your state has done as good if not better than most any other state at providing these WMA lands for the public with great access for the whole state to use which is what I have to say great job by the state officials of Georgia and the conservation folks as well.
> 
> I honestly think that Georgia like MO is rolling with an abundence of turkeys every year that seems to replenish the numbers on an annual basis.  Georgia with its long turkey season and their 3 bird limit seems to be doing ok as is.  Now I believe you guys don't have a fall season there in Georgia due to the fact the way your spring season is set up and you guys can correct me if I am wrong about the no fall turkey hunting in the state of Georgia.  Now if there are those that would like to see Georgia go to a fall turkey season, then my guess is that the long spring season would need to be cut back to either 3 weeks to maybe a month at the most, and the 3 bird limit would need to be reduced to 2 birds.  But that would be up to the masses of turkey hunters if they were wanting to try and change this.  You could also if you wanted to try to maybe start a fall season there by maybe stopping hunting at 1:00PM like we do here in MO to help do so.  We are only allowed 2 gobbler/jakes/bearded hens in the 3 week spring season and then in the fall we can kill 2 birds of either sex.




If you only allow 1 hen per person in the Fall with a bow or muzzleloader(no turkey hunting with rifles) there would be no need to change the spring season...............


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## Brad C. (Apr 25, 2010)

Well what we have found in the state of MO that fall turkey harvest numbers have hardly any effect on the overall state turkey numbers on an annual basis.  Spring rains and flooding is what has the most crucial effect on the poult numbers.

Georgia, with as I stated above about the 3 bird limit and such a long spring season, I personally can't see justifying the killing of a hen in the fall and expect the numbers to stay the same.  I don't believe if this was done at least on a 3yr span that the turkey numbers would remain as high if quite a few hunters were successful in tagging a hen in the fall.  Something like I said earlier would have to be shortened to maintain your turkey numbers.  You can't have both and stay the same in my opinion.  But again that depends on the amount of hens that were being killed in the fall if it were in fact to take place as you stated.


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## Unicoidawg (Apr 25, 2010)

Brad C. said:


> Well what we have found in the state of MO that fall turkey harvest numbers have hardly any effect on the overall state turkey number on annual basis.
> 
> Georgia, with as I stated above about the 3 bird limit and such a long spring season, I personally can't see justifying the killing of a hen in the fall and expect the numbers to stay the same.  I don't believe if this was done at least on a 3yr span that the turkey numbers would remain as high if quite a few hunters were successful in tagging a hen in the fall.  Something like I said earlier would have to be shortened to maintain your turkey numbers.  You can't have both and stay the same in my opinion.  But again that depends on the amount of hens that were being killed rthe fall if it were in fact to take place.




Ohhh it's not gonna happen.... we're just flapping our gums ya know. That is the main reason I say bows and muzzleloaders., There would be some taken, but the use of those "limiting" weapons would not allow a huge number to be taken. As someone mentioned before I like the idea of maybe a week season right before Thanksgiving to allow folks to try and get a bird for the holidays......


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## Brad C. (Apr 25, 2010)

Unicoidawg said:


> Ohhh it's not gonna happen.... we're just flapping our gums ya know. That is the main reason I say bows and muzzleloaders., There would be some taken, but the use of those "limiting" weapons would not allow a huge number to be taken. As someone mentioned before I like the idea of maybe a week season right before Thanksgiving to allow folks to try and get a bird for the holidays......



Remember change can't happen if no one is willing to try it.  That again is up to the hunters and the wildlife officials of the great state of Georgia.  

What you guys need to really decide is if the masses really want a fall season and if so what would you be willing to sacrifice during the spring season to try and get one started to see how things go.  You could try it to see and changes by your wildlife officials could be implemented on a yearly basis  in order to make things work well for both spring and fall in the years to come.  You won't know unless it is tried.  But again that is up to the good folks of Georgia.


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## droptinegirl1 (Apr 25, 2010)

I like things the way they are. I see tons of birds during deer season an plenty of sign year round.. We also have a good bit of yotes and bobcats. I also saw a fox in february. They don't seem to be hurting things much. There are a lot of hens. They seem to cut off a lot of the toms that I hear. They birds on this property are quiet and you don't hear them often but they are there. I am more likely to hear them coming through the leaves rather than gobbling. I am going to start predator hunting religeously so numbers will stay up. I only hunt 25 acres and if there are that many turkeys on it, I can't imagine how many can be on a bigger tract of land. I guess they come for all the oak trees on the ridges there.


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## Southbound (Apr 25, 2010)

Turkey hunting in Ga has been fantasitic as long as I have been hunting turkey.

Maybe it is the HUNTER??? jk

The best way to improve turkey Hunting in Ga is to get some of those dumb Rios or Merriams in the state. 

Fact is  I believe the Eastern is one of the hardest to hunt.


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## buckpasser (Apr 25, 2010)

I think GA has done a good job overall with turkeys, but I wouldn't mind seeing two changes. 
 1. I would like to see only one kill allowed per day.  What's the point of shooting 2 or 3 when they come in together.  Ration out the fun for yourself and others. 
 2. Give a minimum beard length.  I would love to see more jakes let live. 
 Also, let's don't get excited about a fall season or shooting hens.  It would almost certainly lead to a lesser spring season, and I for one don't see "too many" hens in the woods.  This is not MO, it's GA and I like it that way.


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## Nitro (Apr 25, 2010)

FWIW, I will chop two Gobblers on the same hunt anytime the opportunity presents. 

I don't see one thing wrong with the practice. To each his own..


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## Gut_Pile (Apr 25, 2010)

Nitro said:


> FWIW, I will chop two Gobblers on the same hunt anytime the opportunity presents.
> 
> I don't see one thing wrong with the practice. To each his own..



Preach it Mr. Andy. I've lost the battle with longbeards too many times to let one walk away....I HATE seeing a bird walk away, especially if he was in range. I shot two in one shot this year and not even for a second did I feel bad about it. I actually felt better than I would if I would have busted one!


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## tony32 (Apr 25, 2010)

i see nothing wrong with the way it is i have killed my 3 and helped about 3 more folks get theres and the season aint over yet im going in the morning to help film another one and he is pretty well doomed .....of course roosted aint roasted


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## mcarge (Apr 25, 2010)

Season dates are good. Absolutely no fall season.

How do we minimize the folks that take advantage of the "honor "system of three birds per hunter per season?

I personally know of two different guys that have killed more than this simply because they could...unfortunatley on public land. The number is to obscene to post but it really burns me up!!!

Next year if it is slow they will be the first to complain. 

Overall Ignorance IMO


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## Tailfeather (Apr 25, 2010)

Unicoidawg said:


> One would not help, but if a couple 1000 took one it would do wonders......... Also I agree on the tags...... kinda like our current deer tagging/nontagging system works.......


The last thing any turkey hunter ought to want is thousands of hens killed.


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## Brad C. (Apr 25, 2010)

In the spring we in MO are only allowed 1 bird a day.  You can only kill 1 bird the first week.  The start of the 2nd week you can kill 2 that week if you haven't killed any yet, but they can't be on the same day.  Maybe it is just my way of thinking, but why would you want to allow someone to kill 3 birds in a day especially the first day or even the first week if they could?  That only takes away from the others that might not have been able to hunt yet.


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## MesquiteHeat (Apr 25, 2010)

In our area we have too much of a lot of things, way too many predators, overnight hunters equipped with the Squealing Hen/awful yelping, and too many hens.  If hens are allowed to be taken (which I doubt will ever happen) it should be based on the region, not statewide.  
Lots of people think they have huge numbers of hens, I wish they'd come to deep SE GA.  It's almost impossible for folks to fill all their tags down here in the same amount of hunts, these birds are some of the hardest to bring in the state.  However I recently hunted in Toombs county and birds in that area gobble a few times and come running.  Now I know why I see so many on GON filling their tags in a couple of hunts. Like others have said, less hens = more competition and drive.  But I still think the best thing to do is take out the Squealing Henners and coyotes, they're scaring the birds to death in our area!!


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## duckman31822 (Apr 25, 2010)

Bounty on coyotes. Won't ever happen but it would help. Ft Benning did it. With hogs. Paid $ for hog tail. If they did it on coyotes it would encourage folks to hunt them even when nothing else was in season. I shoot everyone I see but if you got $$ I could see a lot more folks going out and targeting them. Just my 2 cents


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## Tom&Jake (Apr 26, 2010)

Unicoidawg said:


> If you only allow 1 hen per person in the Fall with a bow or muzzleloader(no turkey hunting with rifles) there would be no need to change the spring season...............



If the deer hunters followed those rules it wouldn't affect the spring season but i know of way to many people that would kill them anyway. Deer hunters would ruin the spring season. I can see how taking hens out could help (I guess it's like shooting does) but there would be too many killed in the fall.


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## SwampWise (Apr 26, 2010)

Dead Chickens can't lay eggs. Hens are what make it challenging they also hatch off our next great hunt!!!  Also all these mid-western states that have birds example.... MO & KS they have agriculture, agriculture and agriculture which equals fields & patures x10 what we have here in Ga which means easier and exciting huntin,  less predator impact on birds and much less huntin pressure


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## BIGSteve (Apr 26, 2010)

Tags would surely help to keep records but records arn't worth diddley if you don't have a clue of how to use them to manage what you got!The hen situation is really getting out of hand all over the state and I do favor a fall hen only harvest but this also needs to be managed very closely.Things could get screwed up real quick without proper management!


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## wmahunter (Apr 26, 2010)

The OP mentioned poult count.  The DNR thinks poult count is important.  GON always makes a big deal about poult count every year.  Nearly everyone seems happy that 2008 had a good hatch and higher than average poult count and now in 2010 we have a good 2 yr old population which has made this year’s hunting pretty good statewide.

Per hen poult hatch and survival is affected by weather, predators, habitat, burning, etc.  We can’t control the weather.  We can manage predators locally but they will not be effectively managed on a statewide scale. Habitat is generally good in GA. Burning during nesting season could be limited but won’t happen due to the fact that timber production is more valuable to most landowners than the turkeys are. 

Face it guys, as long as we have high coyote numbers we are not going to have the high per hen poult survival that we had years ago before the coyote population explosion;  however in GA that is somewhat offset by having a good TOTAL poult survival because we have plenty of hens.  Lots of hens with few poults each can equal the same overall poult numbers as few hens with lots of poults each.  I don’t see how killing hens would help anything.


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## BIGSteve (Apr 26, 2010)

mcarge said:


> Season dates are good. Absolutely no fall season.
> 
> How do we minimize the folks that take advantage of the "honor "system of three birds per hunter per season?
> 
> ...


Dude,you know guys like that and you haven't reported it to anyone?Help ALL of us out and do the right thing,turn in these thieves!


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## spurandrack (Apr 26, 2010)

*well..........*

5% of the hunters kill 95% of the birds.


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## wmahunter (Apr 26, 2010)

Hens have one purpose...making babies.

Some of you seem to think there are too many hens and that is making your hunting too difficult. So?  It's supposed to be difficult, that's what makes it fun!! 

If it weren't difficult I wouldn't want to continue doing it. 

I have had to make many changes to my tactics over the years to adapt to new difficulties that have come up and that is why I feel a good sense of accomplishment when I am able to score on a hunt.

If it were easy it wouldn't be fun for long.


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## duckhunter2.0 (Apr 26, 2010)

A fall season on hens....


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## DewBear (Apr 26, 2010)

It ain't broke..Why try to fix it??


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## hawglips (Apr 26, 2010)

Season should open later.  Tags should be punched.


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## Jonathan Carver (Apr 26, 2010)

I have hunted Turkeys in Middle ga for about 15 yrs, the numbers have seemed to decrease. I think It has a lot to do with the predator problem. I see tons of coyote Poop everywhere i go. Can't really complain with this years harvest, got my three thunder chickens down already!


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## TK1 (Apr 26, 2010)

Living in a turkey rich state that also boasts 220,000 plus spring hunters let alone the number of fall hunters(we have more than any other state) I can assure you that fall hunting does not make the spring hunting easier..you guys are wishful thinking and kidding yourself..I can also assure you that it doesnt affect the populations...feel free to look up our numbers of turkeys ... numbers killed each year as well as our hunter numbers...Two things improve turkey hunting...Forest management and predator control(coons are responsible for 70 percent of all turkey mortality)..possums and skunks are the next 2 highest...coyotes and fox play a very very small role...


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## bowboy1989 (Apr 26, 2010)

Unicoidawg said:


> That's the MAIN reason I said only bow or muzzleloaders ONLY..... that would limit a lot of people. Of course your gonna have those who are gonna shoot what they want, when they want. Also I agree with the previous poster that we have a very big problem with coyotes, foxes...etc..etc.... But to be honest all the places I have hunted up north I have yet to see or hear any of the landowners speak of trappers on there places. Does that mean they aren't there....... nope, but I have yet to see them.....


NO SIR Buddy thats not fair  plus most of the people out there don't know what there doin anyway and your probably one of them


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## chiefsquirrel83 (Apr 26, 2010)

I'm for a fall harvest of hens as well....I have sat in a deer stand in November and have counted 45 hens in one food plot!!!!


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## buckpasser (Apr 26, 2010)

TK1 said:


> Living in a turkey rich state that also boasts 220,000 plus spring hunters let alone the number of fall hunters(we have more than any other state) I can assure you that fall hunting does not make the spring hunting easier..you guys are wishful thinking and kidding yourself..I can also assure you that it doesnt affect the populations...feel free to look up our numbers of turkeys ... numbers killed each year as well as our hunter numbers...Two things improve turkey hunting...Forest management and predator control(coons are responsible for 70 percent of all turkey mortality)..possums and skunks are the next 2 highest...coyotes and fox play a very very small role...



Thanks for your perspective, but how do you know that population wouldn't be higher in your state if there was no fall season?  You really can't prove it either way since y'all have had a fall season for so long. Who's to say that the PA pop. wouldn't be 40 percent higher than it is now?  Also, coyotes do not just play a very very small role in southwest GA.  I find kills they make every year.


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## Unicoidawg (Apr 26, 2010)

bowboy1989 said:


> NO SIR Buddy thats not fair  plus most of the people out there don't know what there doin anyway and your probably one of them



Wow...........a 21 year old that knows EVERYTHING about turkey hunting......... I have seen it all now....... I dang sure don't to claim to know everything about turkey hunting because I don't............ But I have had my share of success over the past 20years or so....... Is there anything else you would like to tell me about myself or turkey hunting since your drawing from VAST experiences......


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## TK1 (Apr 26, 2010)

buckpasser...our numbers HAVE increased..feel free to dig up the numbers!..our states goal is 450,000 turkeys statewide..right now we sit at around an estimated 350,000..and for the record I live in the part of the state that was closed to fall hunting for who knows how long(30 plus years)..I believe they legalized it in my part of the state like 15 yrs ago..and the birds im my area of the state are flourishing...fall hunting of hens does not affect the populations...


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## BIGSteve (Apr 26, 2010)

Boys,this one is gonna get heated!


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## GAGE (Apr 26, 2010)

Predators and tags.   In Elbert Cty. it is not even legal to trap raccoons,  I can run them with dogs but not trap,  I have heard that this county and a few surrounding counties do not have sustainable populations, but I have way to many tc pictures to believe that.
Besides raccoons, they have to deal with possums, skunks, bobcats, foxes, yotes, fire ants, snakes and birds of prey,  it is tough to be a turkey.


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## hawglips (Apr 26, 2010)

TK1 said:


> Two things improve turkey hunting...Forest management and predator control(coons are responsible for 70 percent of all turkey mortality)..possums and skunks are the next 2 highest...coyotes and fox play a very very small role...



Exactly.  Coons are enemy number one.  Possums and skunks are next.


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## pnome (Apr 26, 2010)

Handguns legal for turkey!


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## Unicoidawg (Apr 26, 2010)

BIGSteve said:


> Boys,this one is gonna get heated!



No it won't.......... It'll go away if'n it gets too bad......


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## TK1 (Apr 26, 2010)

Trust me..I had the fall fears too when it opened in my part of the state..so did many but our fears were quickly subsided when populations continued to grow over the current time period..Our flock growth shows that fall hunting does not harm the overall state population(keep in mind that we have more fall turkey hunters than any other state too)..One thing you would need is to set up a seperate season and not run it current with deer rifle season or anything like that..and for the record...ours is a either sex tag...all birds are legal..


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## Tom&Jake (Apr 26, 2010)

"I am against the use of dogs, against the use of decoys, do not believe that hens should be shot at any time, and i have some reasons for all three prejudices." "My objection to shooting hens is based on a lack of biological knowledge because I don't think we know enough. If a body of data exists, or is in the process of being gathered, that demonstrates no harm ensues, then i am perfectly happy to have you shoot hens. But I know of no such data, I know of no reputable authority that does, and until it comes to light, I think the thing is too risky."
"I cannot see myself walking from the woods to the camp house with an eight-pound trophy hen over my shoulder, unless i was suppering from a particulary virulent form of brain tumor which damaged my sense of reason, as an excuse, and had a paper bag with eye holes over my head to keep my identity secret"-Tom Kelly 
 A Fork In The Road


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## Resica (Apr 26, 2010)

Tom&Jake said:


> "I am against the use of dogs, against the use of decoys, do not believe that hens should be shot at any time, and i have some reasons for all three prejudices." My objection to shooting hens is based on a lack of biological knowledge because I don't think we know enough. If a body of data exists, or is in the process of being gathered, that demonstrates no harm ensues, then i am perfectly happy to have you shoot hens. But I know of no such data, I know of no reputable authority that does, and until it comes to light, I think the thing is too risky.I cannot see myself walking from the woods to the camp house with an eight-pound trophy hen over my shoulder, unless i was suppering from a particulary virulent form of brain tumor which damaged my sense of reason, as an excuse, and had a paper bag with eye holes over my head to keep my identity secret"-Tom Kelly
> A Fork In The Road


Give a shout to the Pennsylvania Game Commission, I'm sure they'll send all the data they have!!


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## TK1 (Apr 26, 2010)

Tom Kelley needs to research the states that have had fall seasons for any length of time..sheesh..Do you really think that states would continue to have fall seasons if there was a lack of turkeys each year?...Im calling bull on his statement...plain bull


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## ikillturkey (Apr 26, 2010)

*dont shorten season*

i fine with one bird a day but shortning the season shortens my time in the woods and i would not like that


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## Tom&Jake (Apr 26, 2010)

TK1 said:


> Tom Kelley needs to research the states that have had fall seasons for any length of time..sheesh..Do you really think that states would continue to have fall seasons if there was a lack of turkeys each year?...Im calling bull on his statement...plain bull



He doesn't disagree with fall hunting he disagrees with killing hens. This is a man with 70 years of turkey hunting experience i think he might know a little something


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## TK1 (Apr 26, 2010)

Ummm...he obviously doesnt know much because turkeys are thriving very well in fall turkey hunting states and there is plenty of data to back it up..so I will gladly call bull once again..70 years means nothing if you dont accept the truths..and the truths and facts are out there...


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## Tom&Jake (Apr 26, 2010)

TK1 said:


> Ummm...he obviously doesnt know much because turkeys are thriving very well in fall turkey hunting states and there is plenty of data to back it up..so I will gladly call bull once again..70 years means nothing if you dont accept the truths..and the truths and facts are out there...



Colonel Tom Kelly is the writer of 12 books on turkey hunting, a turkey EXPERT, and a legend of the sport he deserves a little respect. 70 years is 70 years. He's not against fall hunting. His first turkey was killed in the fall he just doesn't agree with killing hens.


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## GA DAWG (Apr 26, 2010)

If a man cant kill a gobbler now days..Hes doing something wrong..Plain and simple!


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## MKW (Apr 26, 2010)

*...*



GA DAWG said:


> If a man cant kill a gobbler now days..Hes doing something wrong..Plain and simple!



AMEN!!!

Mike


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## G Duck (Apr 26, 2010)

All I can say is that there are plenty of turkeys (gobblers) in my neck of the woods. I have hunted land that in the 1980s did not hold a single bird. Now they are everywhere. I agree the state may have put a program in place for the re-population, but I think the Turkeys took off and adapted in areas like Screven County etc.

Tags seem like a good Idea, but like deer tags, who in here has sent one in lately? Tags are for honest folks. 
I have heard of guys floating the river down here one to two weeks before the season starts, One year the story was he had killed 8 before opening day. I dont think he would use a tag.


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## mauser64 (Apr 26, 2010)

I think ga has a great turkey program. If you saw it in the late 60's and early 70's you would know what our dnr has done to get it this far. I would, however, like to see the limit dropped back to two birds, only because the hunter numbers are growing every year and the harvest seems to be growing. Always err on the conservative side, if you end up with too many old toms we can always up the limit. It takes a little longer to correct the opposite problem.


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## Resica (Apr 26, 2010)

Here is an article I found That talks some about the effects of fall turkey hunting, kinda long.




Pennsylvania Turkey Hunting


THE KEYSTONE STATE, Pennsylvania's nickname for its central position among the 13 original colonies, is also appropriate because our state has been a keystone for restoring wild turkey populations throughout the U.S. During the late 1800s and early 1900s, when most of our surrounding states had completely lost their wild turkeys, small wild flocks held on in the rugged ridges of central Pennsylvania's Ridge and Valley region. If you have ever hiked the steep, rocky, remote ridges along the Mid-State Trail then you know why these areas became the last havens of wild turkeys during the late 1800s. These locales were not suitable for farming or lumbering.

A hundred or so years ago, only 30,000 turkeys were thought to remain in the entire country, and 10 percent were right here in Pennsylvania.

As habitat conditions improved throughout the 20th century, and also thanks to regulated hunting seasons and the trapping and transferring of wild birds, turkeys repopulated the woodlands throughout Pennsylvania. What many hunters today also may not realize is that while most states closed their turkey seasons, the Game Commission offered turkey hunting statewide for every year but 1913, 1914 and 1926. Unlike most states, where wild turkey populations were gone, Pennsylvania maintained our turkey hunting tradition. To this day fall turkey hunting is a major recreational tradition here. Pennsylvania typically has more fall turkey hunters than any other state. In 2001, 228,564 fall turkey hunters took to the woods. Why is fall hunting so popular here? It stems back to traditions established years ago. 

Market hunting for turkeys was very popular in the 1700s and early 1800s because the birds were so abundant. With no seasons, no bag limits, nor any other sort of regulations or protection, turkeys were killed year-round - gobblers, hens and whole broods. At times entire flocks were shot from nighttime roosts.

As the early settlers exploited the turkeys and the axe consumed the bird's habitat, turkeys became so rare that in 1873, for the first time, a law was enacted that closed the turkey season from January 1 to October 1, with a $25 fine (pretty hefty back then) for killing or possessing a turkey out of season. A $10 fine was established for violating regulations prohibiting the use of blinds, snares, traps and the destruction of nests. In 1897 - two years after the Game Commission was created -a daily limit of two birds was established, with no season limit. In 1905 a season limit of four was passed, with a daily limit of one. Turkey seasons were again shortened in the following years, to run from mid-October to the end of November.

Spring hunting was made illegal in 1873, because it was generally believed that turkeys were easily called in and killed then. During the fall they were thought to be more wild and dispersed, making them more challenging to hunt. Also, prior to closing the season from January to October, there were no regulations against killing hens in the spring, and nesting hens could be (and were) killed while incubating. This was certainly detrimental to the already low turkey population. 

Then, in 1913, in a timely and unprecedented move, the legislature closed turkey hunting statewide for a 2-year period, to protect the state's struggling turkey population. This was the first time turkey hunting had been stopped since the state's colonization. The first season following the closure produced a harvest of 3,651 turkeys, and this enormous harvest was directly attributed to the 2-year closure. Based on field estimates, hunter numbers from 1915-1919 averaged 316,800 per year, with turkey harvests averaging approximately 3,905. With further restrictions came improved harvests. In 1917 the season limit was reduced to one, and with this reduced limit, two years later, in 1919, hunters reported taking 5,181.

In 1923, the turkey season didn't open until November 1, the same as the opening date for other small game, to prevent illegal hunting. Calling was made illegal, and hunting hours were set from sunrise to sunset, eliminating nighttime hunting for roosting turkeys.

A report from 1942 by Edward L. Kozicky, who was studying wild turkeys as a graduate student at the Pennsylvania State College (the predecessor to Penn State University), commented that the fall hunting strategy of scattering and calling a turkey flock was "employed to a small extent." The most common method back then was chance. Kozicky writes, "The hunter employing this method selects a spot where he thinks turkeys are ranging and waits for them. Some hunters, although it is illegal, construct blinds at their favorite turkey crossing."

Hunting strategies certainly have changed since then. Turkey blinds again are legal (refer to current digest), calling is legal, and the most common fall strategy today is scattering and calling back the flock.

Today, fall turkey hunting seasons still open mostly in November, but differ in length according to turkey population densities within different units. Rather than limit the number of turkey hunters, the Game Commission controls fall harvests by regulating season lengths in wildlife management units. Seasons vary from a closed season in WMUs 5A & 5B to three weeks in several other WMUs. The daily and season limits remain one. Fall harvests currently exceed 40,000 birds, with more than 225,000 hunters.

Biologists generally agree that fall either-sex hunting can affect population growth, that turkey populations fluctuate annually, and that the vulnerability of wild turkeys to hunting increases in years of poor mast production. Most also believe that hunting mortality occurs in addition to natural mortality, not instead of natural mortality. This is a very important point to remember.

Fall harvests can impact survival of both young birds and adult birds when certain circumstances occur. The challenge faced by wildlife biologists is how to balance the popularity of fall hunting with the effect harvest may have on turkey numbers. In years when there is a poor hatch, adult turkeys are more vulnerable, simply because young birds are not there for hunters to get. In turn, an over harvest of adult hens can significantly reduce the number of nesting hens available the following spring. Similarly, when natural food supplies are poor, the entire turkey population is more susceptible to hunting mortality. In years of low mast production, turkeys use fields more, which makes them easier to locate. When acorns, beechnuts or other mast is abundant, flocks are widely scattered and are more difficult to pattern, so hunter success is lower.

With the rising popularity of spring gobbler hunting, biologists began to examine the potential impact of both spring and fall hunting on wild turkey flocks. The task is to make certain that the demand among hunters for both spring and fall hunting can be safely met. One of the first states to study this issue was Iowa in the 1980s. Fall hunting was new to the state, and the woodlot-type habitat in which turkeys resided was believed to make the birds more vulnerable. Biologists speculated that fall turkey harvest was an additive mortality factor. In other words, many of the birds taken in the fall season would have survived to reproduce if there were no season. The result of the study was a determination that turkey populations varied mostly because of variations in poult survival, but fall hunting slowed the rate at which turkey flocks could recover from a bad year. The authors of that study reported that if more than 10 percent of the fall population is harvested, the population may d ecline. The trouble, though, is knowing when the 10 percent level is reached. 

Intensive studies of turkey productivity and survival in Virginia and West Virginia in the early 1990s indicated that high fall harvests may suppress population growth and limit spring gobbler harvests. The researchers concluded that maximum population growth and the highest spring harvest could be achieved by eliminating the fall season. However, the researchers also showed that even with a liberal fall harvest, turkey numbers could still grow, but at a slow rate. In other words, continued heavy fall harvests could be maintained if hunters were satisfied with lower success in the spring.

They found that when the fall season length was greater than six weeks, the population growth rate was slow. If fewer birds were taken, the annual population growth was greater than 10 percent. Limiting the fall season to a degree produced better population growth, and ultimately hunters were more satisfied with the number of birds they saw and heard in both seasons.

As a result of the studies, Virginia reduced the length of their fall season and West Virginia began to limit the number of hunters in counties recently opened to fall hunting. Both methods preserved fall hunting opportunity and allowed for better population growth.

Here in Pennsylvania, fall turkey harvests vary by wildlife management unit. In most units, productivity and survival of young appear to be good. Using the spring gobbler harvest as an index, turkey numbers are increasing. But it is important for biologists to remain vigilant. Adjusting fall seasons is the best way of providing optimum hunting opportunities. At times, it may be necessary to reduce the length of fall seasons to allow populations to grow. In the worst case scenario, fall seasons may occasionally be closed. But in the good times, fall hunting opportunities should remain liberal.

Currently, the goal of wild turkey management here is to allow the population to grow. In most wildlife management units that can be accomplished with a 2- or 3- week fall season. Longer seasons and more liberal bag limits may not be achievable with current hunter numbers and the high interest in fall turkey hunting.

Right now Keystone State turkey hunters are living in the "good old days." Hunters can enjoy golden days in the autumn woods for up to three weeks in some units. The air is crisp, the scenery ablaze with color, and fall hunting is great exercise.

We are privileged to be able to enjoy both spring and fall hunting in this state. To continue to have the outstanding hunting we have come to expect, fall harvests are carefully monitored and trends in spring harvests are watched. Modern research has shown that spring gobbler hunting can provide maximum recreational opportunity to hunters with little impact on the turkey population. Research has also shown that we can maintain fall hunting, too. However, we must acknowledge that as hunter numbers and the popularity of the sport grow, fall hunting opportunities might not expand as rapidly.

As the turkey population and our understanding of them grew, traditions also changed. Spring turkey hunting was reinstated in 1968, after being closed since 1873, but with the restriction of harvesting bearded birds only, protecting nesting hens. Because the spring season opens after the peak of breeding, and gobblers are polygamous, acquiring a harem of hens to which he breeds, the excess gobblers can be harvested annually without impacting the population. Ever since 1984 Pennsylvanians have enjoyed a month-long spring season, statewide.

Traditions continue to change. More and more people are discovering the joys of spring turkey hunting. Since 2000, the number of spring turkey hunters has exceeded that of fall turkey hunters in Pennsylvania. According to estimates from the National Wild Turkey Federation, this switch is not only the result of fall hunters switching to spring turkey hunting, but also an influx of new turkey hunters who hunt only in the spring. With more spring gobbler hunters than any other state, Pennsylvania definitely remains a keystone turkey state.

- By Mary Jo Casalena, PGC Biologist and Bob Eriksen, NWTF Biologist


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## Belk (Apr 26, 2010)

I sure started a good discussion. Good comments and well thought out.  I was raised in Missouri hunting turkey and have hunted them in several states, MO, AR, NC, SC, CA, CO, TX.  GA is definetly the toughest to kill a good gobbler. I would like to hear the biologist idea's as well. I would like to see 2 bird limit and give us a bonus bird the year after a good hatch year.  You have to respond to the natural  cycles of the populations ( rain, drought, cold, critters) Definetly need  better habitat as turkeys need old growth hardwoods and pastures to thrive. I like the idea of 3rd tag option and all money goes toward research & habitat improvement.


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## G Duck (Apr 26, 2010)

You need to come down and hunt in South Ga.


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## buckpasser (Apr 26, 2010)

mauser64 said:


> I think ga has a great turkey program. If you saw it in the late 60's and early 70's you would know what our dnr has done to get it this far. I would, however, like to see the limit dropped back to two birds, only because the hunter numbers are growing every year and the harvest seems to be growing. Always err on the conservative side, if you end up with too many old toms we can always up the limit. It takes a little longer to correct the opposite problem.



I'm with you on that! Well said sir.  I want to have to manage our overpopulation of gobblers over wishing we'd have been more conservative.  I don't think we're too the point of disease taking over in this part of the state.


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## Gut_Pile (Apr 26, 2010)

Guess it's time to add my opinion on here....GA has done fine with it's turkey population. They do lack in management a little, but overall our turkey population is one of the biggest successes in the US when it comes to wild turkey restorations. 

Tags would be nice and would make some people who break the law straighten up, but some people are going to just keep on doing what they do and kill 20+ a year.

Shooting hens is the last thing we need to do. And instead of a bounty on coyotes, we need a bounty on coons and opossums. They are the wild turkeys main predator.

Most people don't realize this but GA's population of turkeys has dropped from 400,000 turkeys to 300,000 in the last 10 years. So shooting hens in the fall isn't going to help us any.

Also our poult numbers are down simply because or population is very close to, or at it's peak. You can do anywhere in the state of GA and kill a turkey and we have the right amount of birds for the amount of habitat we have. Our poult numbers now are simply replacing the turkeys that are killed that year, which is keeping our numbers from growing.


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## spurandrack (Apr 27, 2010)

There is no limit to the amount of eggs or catfood that a opossum or a racoon can eat.


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## creekrocket (Apr 27, 2010)

Sounds like a whole lota' 'we want change'  jive. Those that want so much change, move on up north with the Yanks, or out west and let us know how your incredibly short and lighter bag limit season goes. No offence to 'you guys'. I have friends up north and out west, that are shaking their heads at this post. I used to live out west, and it was very hard getting use to the fact that I couldnt go hunting without being 'drawn' to go. I agree with alot of the guys in this post as far as the poaching goes. It needs to stop and their needs to be some sort of tag system. I dont know much on how different states regulate something like this, but the people poaching need to be held accountable.
P.S. let us all know how y'all like BradC's short season when it comes around next year Love ya Brad


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## Bucky T (Apr 27, 2010)

MKW said:


> Personally, I think it's just fine the way it is. I've had more turkey action this season than I have in a long time. Birds seem to be plentiful down my way this year. I wish the state limit was 5...just cause I like killing them!
> I do, however, think they should issue tags, with the hunters name printed on them, one at a time. You kill one gobbler, you turn in your tag for a new one(up to 3 per hunter). That way, the state could keep better kill numbers.
> 
> Mike



I personally have no complaints either.  Only thing is that I would like the state to keep better kill numbers as well.  Wouldn't mind tagging the birds either.

I've had a great season so far.  Killed 2 longbeards, killed a big tree..  Let a bird go that was with the #2 longbeard I shot and my cousin got him the next weekend.    I should and could have been limited out.

I've heard gobbles just about every hunt.  Only 2 morning hunts of silence.  This past weekend I was hunting with a good friend and we called up a longbeard at 2pm and he rolled him.  Called up a hen earlier that morning and saw two jakes strutting and a lone gobbler that didn't offer a shot as well.

Been a great season!


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## gaturkey99 (Apr 27, 2010)

As far as season dates, limits, etc., nothing in my opinion is wrong. I would suggest putting a tag system in place that would be accurate enough to get a close guess on harvest numbers. whether it be a tag system where you get one at a time or something else, i think there needs to be one in place. 

another suggestion of mine is to place a restriction on jake harvest. it would be nearly impossible to make a law banning the harvest of jakes due to the fact that everyone at some point will have a big boss jake come in acting like a big turkey gobbling and strutting around like he owns the place. it would be easy to mess up and kill this bird thinking he was a mature bird with beard rot or something else. ---->make a regulation where you can only kill 1 jake per year.

as much as i love to turkey hunt, i would hate to see a fall season for a couple of reasons. 1.) there are lots of jakes killed during the fall and if they could make it to spring, they would be longbeards! 2.) we need all the hens we can to get the best hatch that we can. as painful to deal with as they are in the spring, they are the reason why we get to chase the longbeards. and last but not least 3.) i think that there would be a huge issue with safety as there would be hunters in the woods during deer season without orange. granted there are plenty of people that don't wear it anyways, people rustling on the ground in brush means deer to some deer hunters and some people are smart enough to go ahead and shoot at that movement!

all in all, Georgia does a pretty good job running their turkey season and honestly, i'm just thankful that we have the great opportunity to hunt these majestic birds in the place i call home, the great peach state!


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## Tailfeather (Apr 27, 2010)

For all the talk about Pennsylvania turkeys.....they have a 1month spring season and a two bird limit.  No thanks..... 

I like things the way they are.....hens are just part of turkey hunting, its not that big a deal.......


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## TK1 (Apr 27, 2010)

....we can kill 3 a year...one just happens to be in the fall..Wanna hunt a truely tough bird?...break up a flock of adult hens or gobblers!...and for the record...I smoked a nice gobbler last fall that wont be sounding off on our opener this Saturday....


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## TK1 (Apr 27, 2010)

...we can still kill 3 a year...one just happens to be in the fall..Why not hunt the infamous fall gobbler and see just how good you really are?..or break up a flock of adult hens?(tougher imo)..Fact of the matter remains..we have super high hunter numbers....lots of birds killed...and we can truely hunt the wild turkey without rubber dekes...blinds and what not in the fall....ps....I shot a very nice longbeard last fall that will not be sounding off for our opener this Saturday...and the funny part is...he tasted even better on Thanksgiving....


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## turk2di (Apr 27, 2010)

tony32 said:


> i see nothing wrong with the way it is i have killed my 3 and helped about 3 more folks get theirs


Now there's a big gobbler reduction practice nobody wants to touch when discussing things to increase gobbler numbers or stop a downward spiral. Tagged out hunters calling in birds for others. We all know guy's that have tagged out & have have called in__# of birds for somebody else. The overall numbers of these birds killed are way more than you might..or want..to think! Im not saying to prohibit it, but it has to be recognized as a real pressure drain on gobbler harvest numbers.


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## Tailfeather (Apr 27, 2010)

TK1 said:


> ...we can still kill 3 a year...one just happens to be in the fall..Why not hunt the infamous fall gobbler and see just how good you really are?..or break up a flock of adult hens?(tougher imo)..Fact of the matter remains..we have super high hunter numbers....lots of birds killed...and we can truely hunt the wild turkey without rubber dekes...blinds and what not in the fall....ps....I shot a very nice longbeard last fall that will not be sounding off for our opener this Saturday...and the funny part is...he tasted even better on Thanksgiving....


Well, that's great.....congrats  I don't use rubber dekes, popup blinds or whatnot either......


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## ryanwhit (Apr 27, 2010)

TK1, how does your state gather the numbers of fall turkey hunters?  Is it through survey or through license sales?

I am not against a fall season, but I am not for the killing of hens.  I understand that other states have hunters that kill hens and the population is not overly effected.  This will not happen in GA.  Hens will be shot with rifles out of deer stands every day.  

TK1, none of this except my first 2 questions are directed at you.  That said, GA and PA hunting seasons, limits, and hunters cannot be fairly compared.  Hunting in PA is much older, held in a higher degree of reverence, taken more seriously, and rules not broken as much as in GA.  Schools don't close, hunting season doesn't make the news in GA.  GA guys, don't get offended, it's just the way it is.  That said, I would not trade what we have for what PA has.  

For those who would like a bounty on predators (which, by the way, is the only way a significant number of predators would ever be trapped in GA), who would pay the bounty?  From which pot of ever decreasing resources would such a bounty be paid?  I have a hard time understanding the bounty idea coming from a group of people who, by and large, are not for increased government, more government programs, another tax levied, etc...

just some thoughts...


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## meatseeker (Apr 27, 2010)

why does anyone want a later season in n.ga, I like the cold. I think everythings ok. plenty of birds. Where i'm at you would think theres not many because they haven't gobbled much the last 5 or 6 years. I've killed 3 for the last 4 or 5 years and only one gobbled. I think there a little "quiter" because of all the coyotes. but there there. Last year on opening morning it was 20 degrees and I expected it to be slow, but I went set up in a field heard 1 gobble before daybreak. 20 minutes after daylight 13 gobblers flew off the roost to my decoys. and i'm seeing more each year.


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## TK1 (Apr 27, 2010)

ryanwhit...basically thru the report card that we must mail in after tagging a bird...as well as surveys..keep in mind that our fall season is also in during small game and a portion of archery so you do have guys hunting multiple species at once...I would never say 100 percent that the numbers are true..they may be lower or even higher...


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## Resica (Apr 27, 2010)

TK1 said:


> ryanwhit...basically thru the report card that we must mail in after tagging a bird...as well as surveys..keep in mind that our fall season is also in during small game and a portion of archery so you do have guys hunting multiple species at once...I would never say 100 percent that the numbers are true..they may be lower or even higher...


That's right, The Pa. Game Commission does mail surveys, I believe, to a proportion of hunting license buyers and also looks at  kill reports.


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## wmahunter (Apr 27, 2010)

turk2di said:


> Now there's a big gobbler reduction practice nobody wants to touch when discussing things to increase gobbler numbers or stop a downward spiral. Tagged out hunters calling in birds for others. We all know guy's that have tagged out & have have called in__# of birds for somebody else. The overall numbers of these birds killed are way more than you might..or want..to think! Im not saying to prohibit it, but it has to be recognized as a real pressure drain on gobbler harvest numbers.



We don't have a "downward spiral" here in my part of GA. Maybe you do in KY.

Nothing wrong with helping another hunter fill his tags.  Limit is set based on what the resource can handle and that currently is 3 per season. I don't believe that killing my limit of gobblers has any bad effect on the hunting next year ... but killing hens could.


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## ryanwhit (Apr 27, 2010)

TK1 said:


> ryanwhit...basically thru the report card that we must mail in after tagging a bird...as well as surveys..keep in mind that our fall season is also in during small game and a portion of archery so you do have guys hunting multiple species at once...I would never say 100 percent that the numbers are true..they may be lower or even higher...





Resica said:


> That's right, The Pa. Game Commission does mail surveys, I believe, to a proportion of hunting license buyers and also looks at  kill reports.



I was just checking  because of the multiple species at once thing.  seems like it would be real easy to to get an inflated number using license sales, or even just numbers of guys in the woods who are "hunting," not specifically turkey hunting.  I've run into some of y'alls fall "turkey hunters" wandering aimlessly through the woods (and, as it were, right by huge flocks of turkeys) while in your state bow hunting deer.


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## Resica (Apr 27, 2010)

You would get a super inflated number number using license sales. I think recently they've been selling 900,000 or so licenses. Only a fraction of them are hunting turkey, spring or fall.


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## G Duck (Apr 27, 2010)

TK1 said:


> ...we can still kill 3 a year...one just happens to be in the fall..Why not hunt the infamous fall gobbler and see just how good you really are?..or break up a flock of adult hens?(tougher imo)..Fact of the matter remains..we have super high hunter numbers....lots of birds killed...and we can truely hunt the wild turkey without rubber dekes...blinds and what not in the fall....ps....I shot a very nice longbeard last fall that will not be sounding off for our opener this Saturday...and the funny part is...he tasted even better on Thanksgiving....



No thanks, I hunt deer in the fall. I wouldnt hunt them if they had a fall season here. Things are just fine the way they are.  Come down and hunt the river swamp , get wet up to your waist chasing birds,  That is a chalenge to me.


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## poorcountrypreacher (Apr 27, 2010)

I live in AL, but I've taken at least one spring gobbler in GA for the past 7 years. The population has dropped noticeably in the area around Swainsboro where I usually hunt. I don't know the cause of it, but it is going down for sure on the places I hunt.

As an out of state hunter, I like being able to continue to hunt after killing a bird on the morning hunt. However, I would support a one-a-day limit because it would prevent some hunters from wiping out a group of 3 gobblers at once. And with no tags, the outlaws can basically kill all they want with no fear of getting caught. The season limit is basically an honor system, but with no daily limit you are giving the outlaws the ability to get away with just about anything.

I love the Tom Kelly quote on hens and I think that would be a huge mistake to start a fall hen season. The states that have hen seasons and still have good turkey populations have them in spite of the hen season, and not because of it. Tom Kelly is not a turkey biologist, but Lovett Williams is one of the best, and he says there is no biological reason for any state to ever have a hen season.  Turkeys do not overpopulate their habitat the way deer do, and there is never any need to kill hens like it is to kill does. The hens are the future of your flock, protect all that you can. And what joy could anybody ever get in shooting a hen?

I'm glad to hear that hunters in other sections of GA are seeing good numbers of birds. Hopefully, the population will come back strong in all areas.

Good hunting to all.


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## G Duck (Apr 28, 2010)

I guess you would consider me an outlaw, have shot two and three at a time, with one shot. Some on purpose, some not.  Never over my limit. Having tags would no more help enforce turkey limits than they do for deer.
Some might consider the land that surrounds the areas that you hunt. You might be seeing a decrease in birds, not becouse they have declined, but your neighbors are feeding them. I have seen this in the past, and with more and more people running feeders for deer and turkey year round it will happen.


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## Resica (Apr 28, 2010)

G Duck said:


> No thanks, I hunt deer in the fall. I wouldnt hunt them if they had a fall season here. Things are just fine the way they are.  Come down and hunt the river swamp , get wet up to your waist chasing birds,  That is a chalenge to me.


We hunt deer in the fall too. Fall turkey overlaps archery season for a short bit, but closes before rifle season!!


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## Resica (Apr 28, 2010)

poorcountrypreacher said:


> I live in AL, but I've taken at least one spring gobbler in GA for the past 7 years. The population has dropped noticeably in the area around Swainsboro where I usually hunt. I don't know the cause of it, but it is going down for sure on the places I hunt.
> 
> As an out of state hunter, I like being able to continue to hunt after killing a bird on the morning hunt. However, I would support a one-a-day limit because it would prevent some hunters from wiping out a group of 3 gobblers at once. And with no tags, the outlaws can basically kill all they want with no fear of getting caught. The season limit is basically an honor system, but with no daily limit you are giving the outlaws the ability to get away with just about anything.
> 
> ...


What's the biological reason to have a gobbler season?


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## poorcountrypreacher (Apr 28, 2010)

>>>I guess you would consider me an outlaw, have shot two and three at a time, with one shot. Some on purpose, some not. Never over my limit. Having tags would no more help enforce turkey limits than they do for deer.<<<

Sorry, G Duck, I didn't make myself clear. You were within the law so you aren't an outlaw at all. I have killed 2 in one day in GA on two occasions myself. I just think the lack of a daily limit makes it very easy for those who don't obey the law to kill a bunch of turkeys without getting caught. And I wasn't arguing for tags, and agree they won't help much. Outlaws will always find a way to get around tags, but if the limit is one per day and the GW catches him with 2, well, he has a case. 

>>>What's the biological reason to have a gobbler season?<<<

The spring gobbler is a surplus bird and many of them can be removed without having any effect on the overall population. Their primary biological function is to breed the hens, and the season supposedly doesn't open until most of the hens are bred. And one gobbler can breed a whole bunch of hens, so you aren't hurting the flock at all to kill them. I would hate to see them shot down to nothing but the jakes every spring, so I think some kind of reasonable limit is needed on their harvest, but I think most states are way more restrictive than necessary. I like the limit in AL - 5 per season and one a day. The 5 per season is pretty much a moot point, as very few hunters ever kill 5, and even fewer kill 5 and then quit hunting. There has never been a case made against a hunter for killing more than 5 in a season. There have been plenty caught with more than 1 in a day. 

The hens are never surplus birds in the population. You can't have too many from a biological perspective. The more you have to enter the spring nesting season, the more poults you are likely to raise - in good years and in bad.

A good day to all.


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## michaelknox (Apr 28, 2010)

Im having a great season!!!!!!!!  I love hunting  Ga. wouldnt change a thing.


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## Coach Reynolds (Apr 28, 2010)

#1: NO Jakes
#2: Tag Birds


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## turk2di (Apr 28, 2010)

wmahunter said:


> We don't have a "downward spiral" here in my part of GA. Maybe you do in KY.
> 
> Nothing wrong with helping another hunter fill his tags.  Limit is set based on what the resource can handle and that currently is 3 per season. I don't believe that killing my limit of gobblers has any bad effect on the hunting next year ... but killing hens could.



If you read more closely, i never said Georgia had a downward spiral. I spoke in general. No did i say it was wrong. I just said nobody considers that angle.


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## wmahunter (Apr 28, 2010)

turk2di said:


> If you read more closely, i never said Georgia had a downward spiral. I spoke in general. No did i say it was wrong. I just said nobody considers that angle.



This is a Georgia forum and we are talking about GA here so I think I read all of it correctly.


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## Gut_Pile (Apr 28, 2010)

Coach Reynolds said:


> #1: NO Jakes



There is no way to regulate the killing of jakes. I've killed a jake before on accident, he had a 5 1/2 inch beard and half of his fan was full, could only see his head and beard, thought he was a longbeard, so I pulled the trigger. 

Plus jakes aren't the major breeders in a population so you aren't really helping out the turkey population as a whole by not shooting them. All you are doing is possibly adding a few more two yr olds to your population the next year.

Also jakes make great first birds for people, or second, third, or 100th for that matter.


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## TenPtr (Apr 28, 2010)

Gut_Pile said:


> There is no way to regulate the killing of jakes. I've killed a jake before on accident, he had a 5 1/2 inch beard and half of his fan was full, could only see his head and beard, thought he was a longbeard, so I pulled the trigger.
> 
> Plus jakes aren't the major breeders in a population so you aren't really helping out the turkey population as a whole by not shooting them. All you are doing is possibly adding a few more two yr olds to your population the next year.
> 
> Also jakes make great first birds for people, or second, third, or 100th for that matter.



Well said GutPile.

I have not taken the time to read the responses to this thread but I will give my .02 before I do.

GA offers some awesome turkey hunting.  Turkeys inhabit all of the state's 159 counties which means they are available to everyone who wishes to pursue them.  There are some excellent public lands in the state and there are some not so great public grounds.   The same applies to private land across Georgia.  
Turkey hunting in this state is phenomenal in the areas which proper management takes place.  Turkeys, unlike deer, are fragile creatures when it comes to habitat.. reproduction.. and pressure.   I think it is nuts that our WMA's are not more restrictive.  Many of GA's WMA's are excellent in terms of habitat and population but the liberal regs/restrictions are responsible for the poor success rates.  I have no problem saying that poor hunters produce poor hunting.  Unfortunately, most public lands are overwhelmed with pressure and the pressure is ugly.  

Turkeys require specific habitats and they dont recover from overkill like deer.  Depletion of habitat and abundant pressure will have a negative effect on turkeys all day long.  The areas that manage habitat properly and do not over hunt the existing population.....well those places are thriving more so than ever right now.  Its been a banner year in all the areas I hunt in GA.  The reports have been awesome and things are only looking up.  I dont know what to say to those having a poor season in terms of numbers.  Either the land which you hunt is not attractive to turkeys or you are hunting an area that is directly effected by huntig pressure.  Turkeys are fragile and must be handled so.  They are comparable to the wild quail..


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## Gut_Pile (Apr 29, 2010)

TenPtr said:


> Well said GutPile.
> 
> I have not taken the time to read the responses to this thread but I will give my .02 before I do.
> 
> ...



Well put Zach. I would almost suggest not even reading the other two pages I can sum it for you in a few sentences

lets shoot hens...no shooting hens...PA does and we have more turkeys....this is GA...one bird a day...no jakes killed...shorter season...nothing at all....kill 1000 hens....shoot coyotes....shoot racoons...and a few useless points mixed in with the other useless points.

Your last statement about the wild quail is very true in my opinion. Find quail and most of the time you will find turkeys. To me having quail shows that you have it all on your property that will benefit all wildlife. You have to have several things on your property to actually hold turkeys. Nesting habitat, food, water, and roost areas all come to mind. A turkey can get out in your field and strut all day long to hens while they eat, but it he has no trees to roost in there will be at least two times a day that he is not on your property. If the hens have no where to nest on your property then the gobblers wont be on your property once the hens go to nest. Turkeys have to be taken care of to keep them on your property and to keep them abundant. Lack of predators is another aspect in having turkeys. Low numbers of coyotes, raccoons, possums, and even armadillos all equal good turkey numbers...there is a place I know of in south GA that has all these aspects mixed into one and it is the best place I have ever been turkey hunting. The habitat is perfect. Fields to strut in, trees to roost in, water to drink, habitat to nest in, and virtually no predators. And probably the most important part to the equation and why the place in south GA is so good is because the lack of hunting pressure. A hunter on this place could kill 20 longbeards a year if they hunted it hard...maybe even more. But liberal quotas are placed on the property as a whole and it is only hunted a few weekends out of the year. And those few weekends are the landowners and guest best weekends they have all season long. If everyone took care of their property the way it should be managed for turkeys our state population would go back on the rise guaranteed. And the deer would like it too!


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## capt stan (Apr 29, 2010)

TenPtr said:


> Well said GutPile.
> 
> I have not taken the time to read the responses to this thread but I will give my .02 before I do.
> 
> ...



   And there ya have it!


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## turk2di (Apr 29, 2010)

wmahunter said:


> This is a Georgia forum and we are talking about GA here so I think I read all of it correctly.


This is a turkey talk & custom turkey calls forum. Hey, they wanted to stir the pot!


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## GA DAWG (Apr 29, 2010)

So,How many of ya'll with coon problems need me to come control them??? Coondogs dont run your turkey off..Reguardless of what you;ve been told


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## TenPtr (Apr 30, 2010)

GA is unique in that you can take a fresh clear cut with nothing standing but the hardwoods that make up the SMZ's ....replant the piece of land in pine trees........thin the timber 12 years later....and just like that you have created attractive habitat for turkeys and you have yourself a good piece of turkey hunting property.   Most states dont grow pines like GA...especially out west.  Clearcut a bunch of old growth hardwoods and destroy river bottoms...then see how long it takes for the habitat to become attractive to birds after that...it could take 30 to 40 years.  
Here in GA, turkey habitat comes and goes at an incredibly fast rate.   We have a huge carrying capacity for turkeys and many places in the state reflect that.    Paper company land and timber tracts cover a good portion of GA's ground.   These timber tracts are ideal for turkeys once they reach the age when the pines can be thinned and the woods open up.  It only takes a few years to establish a healthy population of birds and if people would practice enough discipline to allow this to happen the results would be amazing.  However, this rarely happens and the woods are full of unhappy hunters each year.  Blame the coyotes or whatever else is out there but IMO whats wrong with GA turkey hunting is the boneheads that hunt it. 

One more thing.....  the fact that shooting hens is a potential solution to some.............that is just frightening.  This isnt deer hunting....we dont need to balance our Gobbler:hen ratio so that we can have less competiton in the woods and therefor kill more gobblers...that makes zero sense.  Thats nothing but a downward spiral the ends once we have gone ahead and wiped them out entirely....much like we have done in the past.  Its not rocket science.  

I have attached some aerial images that display the progression of a timber tract from the time most the trees were planted 22 years ago to what it is today.  Rumor has it there is a bird or two running around on this place...its obvious why after you glance at it...nesting, fields, brood rearing habitat, water, roosting, cover, etc... this is prime habitat.  Just 6 years ago this was your basic timber tract with a few decent areas to turkey hunt.  Now its known to many as one of the best turkey hunting properties found anywhere in GA.  Its amazing what management, restrictive limits, shooting poachers ,  and properly applied "pressure" can result in...and in no time at that.


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## Gut_Pile (Apr 30, 2010)

Man that place looks awful familiar!


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## JBird227 (Apr 30, 2010)

siberian1 said:


> We need Turkey Tags!!!!!


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## Turkeydoghunter (Apr 30, 2010)

Tom&Jake said:


> Colonel Tom Kelly is the writer of 12 books on turkey hunting, a turkey EXPERT, and a legend of the sport he deserves a little respect. 70 years is 70 years. He's not against fall hunting. His first turkey was killed in the fall he just doesn't agree with killing hens.


i dissagree with you about dogs and hens ....but agree about mr. kelly  and respect.....hes good friends with a GA couple that hunts with fall dogs .....anyone that has 70 years deserves the utmost respect hope i can hunt that long


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