# Pledge of Allegiance



## Hogtown

I was chatting with a wonderful Mennonite lady a few weekends ago and the topic of the Pledge of Allegiance came up.  The Beachy Amish Mennonites (Macon Co) don't pledge allegiance to the flag and they really don't understand how any Christian can swear allegiance to a flag.  In their view there is only one allegiance and that is to God/Jesus.  I have pondered the matter for several weeks and I can't find a flaw in their position.  I appreciate any of ya'lls view on the matter because as it stands right now I am pretty conflicted - I think they are right, but I would have a hard time refusing to pledge allegiance to the flag.  Its a bit disturbing.  Any thoughts?


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## ambush80

Hogtown said:


> I was chatting with a wonderful Mennonite lady a few weekends ago and the topic of the Pledge of Allegiance came up.  The Beachy Amish Mennonites (Macon Co) don't pledge allegiance to the flag and they really don't understand how any Christian can swear allegiance to a flag.  In their view there is only one allegiance and that is to God/Jesus.  I have pondered the matter for several weeks and I can't find a flaw in their position.  I appreciate any of ya'lls view on the matter because as it stands right now I am pretty conflicted - I think they are right, but I would have a hard time refusing to pledge allegiance to the flag.  Its a bit disturbing.  Any thoughts?



From what I can tell, the Amish are the models for Christianity.


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## Jeffriesw

Isn't goverment an instituition set forth by God?
Render to Caesar what is caesar's, render to God what is God's..

Does pledging allegiance to the US supercede our allegiance to the Father?

Good question, I never really thought about it in depth before, Got to let it noodle around abit before I can answer thoughfully.


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## rjcruiser

Swamp Runner said:


> Isn't goverment an instituition set forth by God?
> 
> Does pledging allegiance to the US supercede our allegiance to the Father?




Funny you put this....I was about to say the same thing.


There are countless examples of characters in the Bible showing allegiance to their country and maintaining their allegiance to God.


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## Hogtown

I appreciate the response and ya'll are struggling with the same things as me.  If it (flag allegiance) takes a back seat to God, then (1) Are you really swearing allegiance to the flag (2) why don't we say that - I pledge secondary allegiance to the flag/I pledge allegiance to the flag as long as it doesn't conflict with my faith.  In fact, I think any Christian (if he is honest with himself) will agree that he/she in fact is not swearing allegiance in the strictest sense to the flag.  All our pledgeing is flat out conditional.... as long as it doesn't conflict with my faith... as long as the USA doesn't become a godless, communist country... etc..   Quite frankly, I think we have to ask ourselves: as a Christian why would I even consider swearing allegiance to a piece of cloth when my true/ultimate allegiance is elsewhere?


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## rjcruiser

Hogtown said:


> Quite frankly, I think we have to ask ourselves: as a Christian why would I even consider swearing allegiance to a piece of cloth when my true/ultimate allegiance is elsewhere?



Because I believe that it is my God-given responsibility to uphold the government that He has put in place.  Until that government requires me to do something that is against my belief's and against God's commands, I'll continue to pledge my allegiance to the flag and to the "republic for which it stands for."


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## addictedtodeer

This is one that has been debated through out the ages.
Obviously for a Christian their allegiance must first and foremost be with God. That can and will bring conflict with society. The issue is what do we do at that point and time?
Some have fled (is that wrong?), some have stayed and suffered, some have conformed.
An example from wiki-
_A libellus (plural libelli) was a document given to a Roman citizen to certify performance of a pagan sacrifice, hence demonstrating loyalty to the authorities of the Roman Empire. They could also mean certificates of indulgence, in which the confessors or martyrs interceded for apostatate Christians.

"Forty-six such certificates have been published, all dating from this same year [250 AD]."This particular year falls into the period of persecution under the emperor Decius. Four libelli were found among the thousands of papyri at the archaeological site near Oxyrhynchus in Egypt (POxy 658, POxy 1464, POxy 2990 and POxy 3929).

Participating in pagan sacrifices was a sin for Christians and punished by excommunication, because the New Testament forbade Christians to either participate in "idol feasts" or to eat "meat sacrificed to idols". However, not participating made one liable to arrest by the Roman authorities. A warrant to arrest a Christian (POxy 3035) was also found at Oxyrhynchus, this too has been dated precisely—to the year 256. The grounds for this arrest are not documented, however, and it predates the persecution under the emperor Valerian I by about a year.

At various times under Roman rule, failure to sacrifice was punishable by death. Christian theologians (for example Cyprian) debated whether the threat of the death penalty mitigated the sin of having communion with idols, leaving room for forgiveness and restoration to the Christian community. The unresolved debate became redundant when the emperor Constantine I became a Christian (early 4th century), and Christianity became a religio licita (legal religion) under Roman law._

Now this example today in this country is seen as extreme. There are countries where Christians have to decide to blend in or stick out with the accepted practices of the country (sometimes at their peril).

I do believe we as Christians must understand that any government formed by man will at some point run into conflict with the gospel (merely due to sin). At that point hopefully the gospel will be preeminent in our lives and worth whatever the cost is.


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## Ronnie T

Hogtown said:


> I appreciate the response and ya'll are struggling with the same things as me.  If it (flag allegiance) takes a back seat to God, then (1) Are you really swearing allegiance to the flag (2) why don't we say that - I pledge secondary allegiance to the flag/I pledge allegiance to the flag as long as it doesn't conflict with my faith.  In fact, I think any Christian (if he is honest with himself) will agree that he/she in fact is not swearing allegiance in the strictest sense to the flag.  All our pledgeing is flat out conditional.... as long as it doesn't conflict with my faith... as long as the USA doesn't become a godless, communist country... etc..   Quite frankly, I think we have to ask ourselves: *as a Christian why would I even consider swearing allegiance to a piece of cloth when my true/ultimate allegiance is elsewhere?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I completely agree with your thoughts.
> How can I pledge allegiance to this country and to God.
> Now, in my senseless human thinking, I deal with that by reassuring myself that my allegiance is first and foremost to my heavenly father.
> Maybe the "one nation under God" is our acknowledgement that all falls under our supreme allegiance to God.
> 
> Good points by all.


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## Hogtown

rjcruiser said:


> Until that government requires me to do something that is against my belief's and against God's commands, I'll continue to pledge my allegiance to the flag and to the "republic for which it stands for."



Fair enough.  Are you pledgeing your allegiance to a government that certainly condones, and in some instances actually pays, to abort children?  Please be aware rjcruiser I am not playing "gotcha" - I am trying to determine (for myself): Where do you draw the line?


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## ddd-shooter

I suggest reading about Daniel, who pledged allegiance and served Nebudchadnezzar, although he was a heathen. He did not worship him though. 
Daniel prayed to God and kept his eyes on God the whole time.


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## THREEJAYS

Theres not been a goverment ever that I'm aware of that has followed God to the letter,however we are told that God has allowed every goverment thats ever been to be.That being said I have no problem being American and supporting it in the areas that don't conflict w/ scripture.Even w/ all our problems it's still the best place on earth to live and serve God that I know of.


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## tell sackett

ddd-shooter said:


> I suggest reading about Daniel, who pledged allegiance and served Nebudchadnezzar, although he was a heathen. He did not worship him though.
> Daniel prayed to God and kept his eyes on God the whole time.


You beat me to it. God told the Jews when they were carried into Babylon to build homes, plant gardens and do the work they were given. He also promised them deliverance. 

Another great example is Paul commanding the first century Christians to obey the gov't of Nero even though he was severely persecuting them. His gov't was even more corrupt than this one, even though that's hard to imagine at times now!

Seeing THREEJAY's post gave me another thought. Is it ethical, or maybe moral is a better way to put it, to accept all the benefits of living in this country and not pledge loyalty(second to God)to it?


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## thedeacon

When I married my wife I swore an allegiance to her. When I went to work for the Trane Company I swore an allegiance to them. When I went into the armed forces I swore an allegiance to them. I have never put them before My God and I never will. 

There is nothing wrong with putting your faith in someone, something or somewhere but your first allegiance is to God. We need more people that will hold more things holy not less. I think it is wise to hold things dear to yourself.


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## Tim L

Swamp Runner said:


> Isn't goverment an instituition set forth by God?
> Render to Caesar what is caesar's, render to God what is God's..
> 
> Does pledging allegiance to the US supercede our allegiance to the Father?
> 
> Good question, I never really thought about it in depth before, Got to let it noodle around abit before I can answer thoughfully.




Pretty much agree with the way you put it.  Still their fine people and it's hard not to have respect for them.  They seem to live (at least the one's I have seen over the years) what they preach.


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## Roberson

That's ridiculous. If they cannot pledge allegiance to the country that protects their rights, and that was founded, by the way, by men of strong Christian conviction, with thousands of Christians in service in dangerous places across the world right now to make sure these rights remain, maybe they should move to Canada.


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## rjcruiser

Hogtown said:


> Fair enough.  Are you pledgeing your allegiance to a government that certainly condones, and in some instances actually pays, to abort children?  Please be aware rjcruiser I am not playing "gotcha" - I am trying to determine (for myself): Where do you draw the line?



I understand your questioning and the questioning/position of the little ole' Mennonite lady.

The problem with the Mennonite belief/position is that it is based upon governments of 100 years ago.  Somewhat like their position on being in the army.

That is another thread off this topic...but somewhat on topic....what say ye about being in the army?  Ask a Mennonite that and you'll get some differing views.

Oh..ddd...thanks for giving the example of Daniel.  One I was thinking of was Joseph in Egypt....or what about Esther?


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## pileit

Gatorcountry said:


> That's ridiculous. If they cannot pledge allegiance to the country that protects their rights, and that was founded, by the way, by men of strong Christian conviction, with thousands of Christians in service in dangerous places across the world right now to make sure these rights remain, maybe they should move to Canada.





Well said my friend, and carry with them anyone that believes the American Flag is a mere piece of cloth.


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## Hogtown

thedeacon said:


> When I married my wife I swore an allegiance to her. When I went to work for the Trane Company I swore an allegiance to them. When I went into the armed forces I swore an allegiance to them. I have never put them before My God and I never will.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Deacon, this kind of  gets to the heart of the problem.  Isn't it somewhat hypocritical to go around swearing allegiance to all these things, yet not really mean it?


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## crackerdave

As long as that pledge includes the words "under God," [ which,by the way,the "lefties" are fighting tooth and nail] then I see nothing wrong with pledging allegiance to the flag of our country that God has given us.The Bible tells believers to be obedient to our government - _unless_ it goes against God.   Are we there yet???

Hogtown,I share your admiration for the lifestyle of the Amish/Mennonites.I was even seriously considering at one time asking them to let me join them - until I read that I wouldn't be allowed to bring my guitar! Just kidding about the guitar - my wife was getting a little worried that we would be moving soon!

I really do think they are living the closest thing to a godly lifestyle of any community that I know of in this country.It would be quite a "culture shock" for most Americans to go and live that life.


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## Ronnie T

Gatorcountry said:


> That's ridiculous. If they cannot pledge allegiance to the country that protects their rights, and that was founded, by the way, by men of strong Christian conviction, with thousands of Christians in service in dangerous places across the world right now to make sure these rights remain, maybe they should move to Canada.



I know what it is to serve in the military of this country.  
20+ years.
And I love to stand before our flag and recite the pledge.
But I've learned that I serve a greater purpose when I trust in God to protect me rather than this country.
I trust in what God has done for this country.
The reason we are what we are in this country is, to me, obviously because God has richly blessed this country.
And God continues to bless us, inspite of ourselves.

But if this country continues to turn away from God, watch what happens.

This is a great country.  God has made her great.  At one time, no one sought God like America did.


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## ddd-shooter

Hogtown said:


> thedeacon said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I married my wife I swore an allegiance to her. When I went to work for the Trane Company I swore an allegiance to them. When I went into the armed forces I swore an allegiance to them. I have never put them before My God and I never will.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deacon, this kind of  gets to the heart of the problem.  Isn't it somewhat hypocritical to go around swearing allegiance to all these things, yet not really mean it?
Click to expand...


What makes you think you cannot swear multiple allegiances and really mean them? 



crackerdave said:


> As long as that pledge includes the words "under God," [ which,by the way,the "lefties" are fighting tooth and nail] then I see nothing wrong with pledging allegiance to the flag of our country that God has given us.The Bible tells believers to be obedient to our government - _unless_ it goes against God.   Are we there yet???
> 
> Hogtown,I share your admiration for the lifestyle of the Amish/Mennonites.I was even seriously considering at one time asking them to let me join them - until I read that I wouldn't be allowed to bring my guitar! Just kidding about the guitar - my wife was getting a little worried that we would be moving soon!
> 
> I really do think they are living the closest thing to a godly lifestyle of any community that I know of in this country.It would be quite a "culture shock" for most Americans to go and live that life.



What about Daniel and Joseph who served heathen governments faithfully? These were far worse than America has ever dreamt of being. Should they have tried to overthrow the gov't? 

Here is the problem with Amish and those who want to run and hide away from the culture of the world. 
We are salt and light of the world! No man lights a candle and hides it under a bushel, so why would you remove yourself from being able to influence the culture around you? 
Daniel was faithful in Babylon and turned the King's heart to God. 
Joseph was faithful to Egypt and saved his family and the whole country from famine. He also ended up running the country. 
If we are salt, but we don't ever season anything, what good are we? If we do not impact our country, our government, our workplaces and our culture, what good are we? We might as well be thrown out because we will have lost our flavor. 
Salt or light doesn't have to try to be anything, it just is what it is and impacts everything it comes in contact with. Sometimes the best thing we can do for God is just be who we are and what God wants us to be right where we are.


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## pigpen1

Gatorcountry said:


> That's ridiculous. If they cannot pledge allegiance to the country that protects their rights, and that was founded, by the way, by men of strong Christian conviction, with thousands of Christians in service in dangerous places across the world right now to make sure these rights remain, maybe they should move to Canada.






pileit said:


> Well said my friend, and carry with them anyone that believes the American Flag is a mere piece of cloth.



 I agree! When I pledge allegiance to the Flag, I pledge it to the values the Flag means to me. The same ones this great Country was founded on. I pledge my allegiance to it under GOD. The Amish do not believe in helping in the military that gives us the freedoms that we have in this land. They may be good people, but if they do not believe in defending this land that so many people have died for, I say they are no better than the tree hugging, left wing hippies that are ticks living off of the blood of so many brave men and women.

 Like it, love it or leave it.


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## Hogtown

pigpen1 said:


> I agree! When I pledge allegiance to the Flag, I pledge it to the values the Flag means to me. The same ones this great Country was founded on. I pledge my allegiance to it under GOD. The Amish do not believe in helping in the military that gives us the freedoms that we have in this land. They may be good people, but if they do not believe in defending this land that so many people have died for, I say they are no better than the tree hugging, left wing hippies that are ticks living off of the blood of so many brave men and women.
> 
> Like it, love it or leave it.



By your measure all women, all children, all handicapped, all senior citizens, and pretty much everyone but males in their 20's are "ticks living off of the blood..blah..blah.."  Amish, Mennonites, etc... obey all laws.  They will not take up a gun, but they will serve in another capacity.  If you don't believe that is service then 90% of all people in Iraq are NOT serving because 90% of all jobs are behind the lines.  The actual killing of humans doesn't require that many soldiers...


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## pigpen1

Hogtown said:


> By your measure all women, all children, all handicapped, all senior citizens, and pretty much everyone but males in their 20's are "ticks living off of the blood..blah..blah.."  Amish, Mennonites, etc... obey all laws.  They will not take up a gun, but they will serve in another capacity.  If you don't believe that is service then 90% of all people in Iraq are NOT serving because 90% of all jobs are behind the lines.  The actual killing of humans doesn't require that many soldiers...



 No, I didn't say couldn't defend our country, I said wouldn't or they didn't believe in it.
 There are many women that are in our military. There are many Handicapped and Seniors that would bear arms if needed.



Hogtown said:


> obey all laws.They will not take up a gun, but they will serve in another capacity.



During the drafts of previous wars they were Draft Dodgers. I think that is breaking the law, Unless you are a left wing nut like Clinton. So, they fit in the same category.


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## rjcruiser

pigpen1 said:


> I agree! When I pledge allegiance to the Flag, I pledge it to the values the Flag means to me. The same ones this great Country was founded on. I pledge my allegiance to it under GOD. The Amish do not believe in helping in the military that gives us the freedoms that we have in this land. They may be good people, but if they do not believe in defending this land that so many people have died for, I say they are no better than the tree hugging, left wing hippies that are ticks living off of the blood of so many brave men and women.
> 
> Like it, love it or leave it.





pigpen1 said:


> No, I didn't say couldn't defend our country, I said wouldn't or they didn't believe in it.
> There are many women that are in our military. There are many Handicapped and Seniors that would bear arms if needed.
> 
> 
> 
> During the drafts of previous wars they were Draft Dodgers. I think that is breaking the law, Unless you are a left wing nut like Clinton. So, they fit in the same category.





Pig...welcome back....but I'm going to call you out.

You have no idea what you are talking about.  I don't know of a Mennonite who wouldn't defend their land.  Now...that being said, an offensive war and a defensive war are two different things to most Mennonites.

Also, I know several Mennonites who've changed their minds on joining the military based on the circumstances that have occurred over the last decade.  It is an issue that the Mennonites are dealing with right now.


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## Ronnie T

ddd-shooter said:


> What makes you think you cannot swear multiple allegiances and really mean them?
> 
> 
> 
> What about Daniel and Joseph who served heathen governments faithfully? These were far worse than America has ever dreamt of being. Should they have tried to overthrow the gov't?
> 
> Here is the problem with Amish and those who want to run and hide away from the culture of the world.
> We are salt and light of the world! No man lights a candle and hides it under a bushel, so why would you remove yourself from being able to influence the culture around you?
> Daniel was faithful in Babylon and turned the King's heart to God.
> Joseph was faithful to Egypt and saved his family and the whole country from famine. He also ended up running the country.
> If we are salt, but we don't ever season anything, what good are we? If we do not impact our country, our government, our workplaces and our culture, what good are we? We might as well be thrown out because we will have lost our flavor.
> Salt or light doesn't have to try to be anything, it just is what it is and impacts everything it comes in contact with. Sometimes the best thing we can do for God is just be who we are and what God wants us to be right where we are.



Great points.


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## pigpen1

rjcruiser said:


> Pig...welcome back....but I'm going to call you out.
> 
> You have no idea what you are talking about.  I don't know of a Mennonite who wouldn't defend their land.  Now...that being said, an offensive war and a defensive war are two different things to most Mennonites.
> 
> Also, I know several Mennonites who've changed their minds on joining the military based on the circumstances that have occurred over the last decade.  It is an issue that the Mennonites are dealing with right now.



 In Vietnam when they were running to canada, I had friends and family fighting and dieing over there.

 So, they do not believe in the pledge to the flag or fighting for it. There is a fine line between offence and defence. I had rather fight an offencive war over there than to fight a defencive one here. This is the problem with people who think that way. They will not justify war unless its in their front door. That kind of thinking is dangerous and is the same thinking of most modern liberals and makes us a weak nation.


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## Ronnie T

I force myself to admire a person who simply does not have the capibility to point a gun a another person and pull the trigger.
It doesn't make them an evil, selfish person.
Just as I have the right to bear arms, another has the right not to bear arms.  
And I am willing to help defend those who are not willing to do it themselves.
Like many on this forum who could have joined the military during the past 15 years to join the war, but you haven't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## rjcruiser

pigpen1 said:


> In Vietnam when they were running to canada, I had friends and family fighting and dieing over there.
> 
> So, they do not believe in the pledge to the flag or fighting for it. There is a fine line between offence and defence. I had rather fight an offencive war over there than to fight a defencive one here. This is the problem with people who think that way. They will not justify war unless its in their front door. That kind of thinking is dangerous and is the same thinking of most modern liberals and makes us a weak nation.




Pig...rather than let your response be clouded by your own personal experience, you should really think through things and do a little research.

Again, I posted that this is something that the Mennonite denomination is going through.  I know several that are in the Armed Forces and fighting in the mountains and deserts over there.

Again, you point out your ignorance on the subject by your quick posting abilities.

Hmm..kinda like someone saying that those in the Lodge are devil worshipers



Ronnie T said:


> I force myself to admire a person who simply does not have the capibility to point a gun a another person and pull the trigger.
> It doesn't make them an evil, selfish person.
> Just as I have the right to bear arms, another has the right not to bear arms.
> And I am willing to help defend those who are not willing to do it themselves.
> Like many on this forum who could have joined the military during the past 15 years to join the war, but you haven't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Well put.


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## pigpen1

Anyone who would dodge the draft during a time of war is no differant than the hippies that stood and called our soldiers "Baby Killers" when our soldiers were getting off the planes coming home from defending this land.

 My Nephew is a Staff Sgt in the Marine Corps now. He is a Iraq war Vet that joined during the war time because of his love and allegiance for this country. He will now be Afghanistan bound. He reenlisted during war time for his second 4 yr term and it makes me sick to hear people run them down. We can still support our Country and Soldiers and have God at the Head of it all. The Bible is full of examples.


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## pigpen1

rjcruiser said:


> Pig...rather than let your response be clouded by your own personal experience, you should really think through things and do a little research.
> 
> Again, I posted that this is something that the Mennonite denomination is going through.  I know several that are in the Armed Forces and fighting in the mountains and deserts over there.
> 
> Again, you point out your ignorance on the subject by your quick posting abilities.



Confession of Faith in a Mennonite Perspective
Article 22:  "Peace, Justice and Nonresistance"  (adopted in 1995)
Excerpts:
We believe that peace is the will of God. God created the world in peace, and God's peace is most fully revealed in Jesus Christ, who is our peace and the peace of the whole world. Led by the Holy Spirit, we follow Christ in the way of peace, doing justice, bringing reconciliation, and practicing nonresistance even in the face of violence and warfare. 
As disciples of Christ, we do not prepare for war, or participate in war or military service. The same Spirit that empowered Jesus also empowers us to love enemies, to forgive rather than to seek revenge, to practice right relationships, to rely on the community of faith to settle disputes, and to resist evil without violence. 
Led by the Spirit, and beginning in the church, we witness to all people that violence is not the will of God. We witness against all forms of violence, including war among nations, hostility among races and classes, abuse of children and women, violence between men and women, abortion, and capital punishment.
Find the full document at http://www.mennolink.org/doc/cof/art.22.html


This was adopted in 1995 and is part of their confession of Faith, so maybe you should check up before you call someone else ignorant, or it might show yours.


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## Double Barrel BB

Pop quiz hot shots:

Anyone know how Americans were first taught to hold their hands while pledging to the flag? 

Hint... it wasn't over the heart....

DB BB


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## rjcruiser

pigpen1 said:


> Anyone who would dodge the draft during a time of war is no differant than the hippies that stood and called our soldiers "Baby Killers" when our soldiers were getting off the planes coming home from defending this land.
> 
> My Nephew is a Staff Sgt in the Marine Corps now. He is a Iraq war Vet that joined during the war time because of his love and allegiance for this country. He will now be Afghanistan bound. He reenlisted during war time for his second 4 yr term and it makes me sick to hear people run them down. We can still support our Country and Soldiers and have God at the Head of it all. The Bible is full of examples.







pigpen1 said:


> Confession of Faith in a Mennonite Perspective
> Article 22:  "Peace, Justice and Nonresistance"  (adopted in 1995)
> Excerpts:
> We believe that peace is the will of God. God created the world in peace, and God's peace is most fully revealed in Jesus Christ, who is our peace and the peace of the whole world. Led by the Holy Spirit, we follow Christ in the way of peace, doing justice, bringing reconciliation, and practicing nonresistance even in the face of violence and warfare.
> As disciples of Christ, we do not prepare for war, or participate in war or military service. The same Spirit that empowered Jesus also empowers us to love enemies, to forgive rather than to seek revenge, to practice right relationships, to rely on the community of faith to settle disputes, and to resist evil without violence.
> Led by the Spirit, and beginning in the church, we witness to all people that violence is not the will of God. We witness against all forms of violence, including war among nations, hostility among races and classes, abuse of children and women, violence between men and women, abortion, and capital punishment.
> Find the full document at http://www.mennolink.org/doc/cof/art.22.html
> 
> 
> This was adopted in 1995 and is part of their confession of Faith, so maybe you should check up before you call someone else ignorant, or it might show yours.




Sure...anyone can cut & paste from a website.  Problem is you have no clue what is beleived or what is practiced.

To group Mennonites in the same group as hippies calling soldiers "baby killers" shows your ignorance.  Do they support fighting and going to war?  No.  Did they support the effort? Yes.  Many worked in factories and ministered to Japanese American's during WWII.  You can support your country without going to war.  

I do it and so do you.


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## pigpen1

rjcruiser said:


> Sure...anyone can cut & paste from a website.  Problem is you have no clue what is beleived or what is practiced.
> 
> To group Mennonites in the same group as hippies calling soldiers "baby killers" shows your ignorance.  Do they support fighting and going to war?  No.  Did they support the effort? Yes.  Many worked in factories and ministered to Japanese American's during WWII.  You can support your country without going to war.
> 
> I do it and so do you.



What did they do when they received there summons from Uncle Sam. Did they accept and go to war or run? History Research can go along way. If a person who is a citizen of a country and called by that country in a time of need to go and defend it and they will not, they are a traitor.

 I know there are many differant ways to serve our Country, but in a Draft situation anyone who will not go is a traitor and coward.


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## rjcruiser

pigpen1 said:


> What did they do when they received there summons from Uncle Sam. Did they accept and go to war or run? History Research can go along way. If a person who is a citizen of a country and called by that country in a time of need to go and defend it and they will not, they are a traitor.
> 
> I know there are many differant ways to serve our Country, but in a Draft situation anyone who will not go is a traitor and coward.



It is called "Conscientious objector."

But I'll play....so let me ask you this.  The government tells you to reject your beliefs, curse your god and no longer preach the gospel.  What would you do?


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## pileit

Hogtown said:


> I was chatting with a wonderful Mennonite lady a few weekends ago and the topic of the Pledge of Allegiance came up.  The Beachy Amish Mennonites (Macon Co) don't pledge allegiance to the flag and they really don't understand how any Christian can swear allegiance to a flag.  In their view there is only one allegiance and that is to God/Jesus.  I have pondered the matter for several weeks and I can't find a flaw in their position.  I appreciate any of ya'lls view on the matter because as it stands right now I am pretty conflicted - I think they are right, but I would have a hard time refusing to pledge allegiance to the flag.  Its a bit disturbing.  Any thoughts?[/
> 
> 
> Hog you chatted with the Beachy Amish Mennonite lady and she don't understand how any Christian can pledge alegiance to the flag.  You think she is right, you are conflicted and disturbed.  You ask for our thoughts and views.
> I think you should do what you think is right for you.
> However my view she is as nutty as a fruit cake.


----------



## pigpen1

rjcruiser said:


> It is called "Conscientious objector."
> 
> But I'll play....so let me ask you this.  The government tells you to reject your beliefs, curse your god and no longer preach the gospel.  What would you do?



The Bible does not teach against War.

This is what they are...Pacifists all the way back to the war of Independence.


http://tnimc.blogspot.com/2007/03/brief-history-of-pacifism.html


----------



## rjcruiser

pigpen1 said:


> The Bible does not teach against War.



Then why didn't David build the Temple?


----------



## pigpen1

rjcruiser said:


> Then why didn't David build the Temple?



In who's name did he Kill Goliath?


----------



## rjcruiser

pigpen1 said:


> In who's name did he Kill Goliath?



Which Goliath....per my NASB translation, there were several Goliath's 

oh...I digress....I'll answer your question even though you can't answer mine.

From I Samuel

"I come to you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have taunted"


We can go round and round about this.  I can give you scripture that shows where the Lord has not blessed those who have gon to war.  I can give you scripture that shows where Christ tells us to love our enemies.

Do I agree with that belief?  No.  Do I think all war is justifiable.  No.  Do I think the current war we are fighting in Afghanistan is justifiable?  Yes.

But to lump those who are conscientious objectors into the the same group as hippies spitting in the faces of fellow American's and calling them "baby killers" is ridiculous.


----------



## pigpen1

rjcruiser said:


> Which Goliath....per my NASB translation, there were several Goliath's
> 
> oh...I digress....I'll answer your question even though you can't answer mine.
> 
> From I Samuel
> 
> "I come to you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have taunted"
> 
> 
> We can go round and round about this.  I can give you scripture that shows where the Lord has not blessed those who have gon to war.  I can give you scripture that shows where Christ tells us to love our enemies.
> 
> Do I agree with that belief?  No.  Do I think all war is justifiable.  No.  Do I think the current war we are fighting in Afghanistan is justifiable?  Yes.
> 
> But to lump those who are conscientious objectors into the the same group as hippies spitting in the faces of fellow American's and calling them "baby killers" is ridiculous.



1 Sam 15:2-3

2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep , camel and Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.
KJV


 David not building the temple has nothing to do with this.

Even Christ is a Man of War...Rev 19:11

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war .
KJV

He even used violence in the Temple, remember the whip and money changers.

 Pacifists do not have true grounds in the Bible to teach against war. They can take one scripture here and there, but there have been wars and will be until the end. God has directed people to war on to many occasions to list.


----------



## pbradley

Words have meanings.

I pledge 



> Pledge:
> 
> 1 a : a bailment of a chattel as security for a debt or other obligation without involving transfer of title b : the chattel so delivered c : the contract incidental to such a bailment  (in addition to "property", chattel also means "slave")



allegiance



> Allegiance:
> 
> 1 a : the obligation of a feudal vassal to his liege lord b (1) : the fidelity owed by a subject or citizen to a sovereign or government



to the flag of the United States of America, and to the 

Republic for which it stands (a symbol or representation of)



> Republic:
> 
> 1 a (1) : a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government b (1) : a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government c : a usually specified republican government of a political unit <the French Fourth Republic (in other words, the government)




In short, the long version would read something like this:

I swear an oath of loyalty, as a subject or slave to a liege, to the government of the United States...

Now, add two more elements:

1 - the pledge was written by a socialist, Francis Bellamy.  

2 - Today, we teach our children to swear that oath of loyalty to the government with their hands placed over their hearts.  In some places, the teachers / administration (government employees) try to require the children to say the pledge.

Remember, words mean things.  Words are symbols.  The modern symbol of bowing originated in displaying one's bare neck / head in an open manner, essentially offering up your head to whomever you were bowing to.

Putting your hand over your heart while swearing a loyalty oath means you are swearing that oath on your life.

Swear _on my life,_ an oath of loyalty to the government, that was written by a socialist?  I think not.


----------



## rjcruiser

rjcruiser said:


> oh...I digress....I'll answer your question even though you can't answer mine.





pigpen1 said:


> 1 Sam 15:2-3
> 
> 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
> 
> 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep , camel and Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.
> KJV
> 
> 
> David not building the temple has nothing to do with this.
> 
> Even Christ is a Man of War...Rev 19:11
> 
> 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war .
> KJV
> 
> He even used violence in the Temple, remember the whip and money changers.
> 
> Pacifists do not have true grounds in the Bible to teach against war. They can take one scripture here and there, but there have been wars and will be until the end. God has directed people to war on to many occasions to list.



Still no answers.


----------



## Ronnie T

Which war did you fight in Pigpen?
Vietnam?
Granada?
Desert Storm 1991?

For what purpose should a Christian be willing to kill someone?
Personal threat(someone pulled a gun on ya)?
Threatening your family?
List the others.......


----------



## pigpen1

Ronnie T said:


> Which war did you fight in Pigpen?
> Vietnam?
> Granada?
> Desert Storm 1991?
> 
> For what purpose should a Christian be willing to kill someone?
> Personal threat(someone pulled a gun on ya)?
> Threatening your family?
> List the others.......



I would have been glad to fight, but missing fingers on my right hand from an accident at the age of 12 kept the military from accepting me. Their choice, not mine. If they would have wanted me I would have went.


----------



## Ronnie T

pigpen1 said:


> I would have been glad to fight, but missing fingers on my right hand from an accident at the age of 12 kept the military from accepting me. Their choice, not mine. If they would have wanted me I would have went.




Well, that response certainly messed up my plan.

I Dad went to enlist during WW11 but was drunk when he got to the reception station.  They sobered him up and sent him home.

Some people, including men, simply are not capable of defending themselves let alone someone else or a nation.
God makes all kinds of different folks.

Note:  What kind of accident?


----------



## pigpen1

Ronnie T said:


> Well, that response certainly messed up my plan.
> 
> I Dad went to enlist during WW11 but was drunk when he got to the reception station.  They sobered him up and sent him home.
> 
> Some people, including men, simply are not capable of defending themselves let alone someone else or a nation.
> God makes all kinds of different folks.
> 
> Note:  What kind of accident?



 Splitting fire wood with my Nephew, who now is a staff Sgt in the Marines, he is here on woody's under Marine46. We were using a hydraulic wood splitter, I was putting the logs on it and he was pulling the lever. It mashed two of my fingers off of my right hand.


----------



## Ronnie T

pigpen1 said:


> Splitting fire wood with my Nephew, who now is a staff Sgt in the Marines, he is here on woody's under Marine46. We were using a hydraulic wood splitter, I was putting the logs on it and he was pulling the lever. It mashed two of my fingers off of my right hand.




Oh No


----------



## pileit

Hogtown said:


> By your measure all women, all children, all handicapped, all senior citizens, and pretty much everyone but males in their 20's are "ticks living off of the blood..blah..blah.."  Amish, Mennonites, etc... obey all laws.  They will not take up a gun, but they will serve in another capacity.  If you don't believe that is service then 90% of all people in Iraq are NOT serving because 90% of all jobs are behind the lines.  The actual killing of humans doesn't require that many soldiers...



Hogtown, I am now a handicapped senior citizen.  I am being protected by the brave young men and women in the armed forces whatever their assignment.  I was once the young 20 year old combat soldier married to an m16.  I am sure I'm not the only one on here as a young person who fought for their country.  I still agree with Pigpen you can call them cos, but they are draftdoging cowards not deserving of their citizenship.  We can all thank one term Jimmy for their unconditional pardon.  I do agree with you on one point the actual killing of humans doesn't require that many soldiers.  Look what Truman did.


----------



## pigpen1

pileit said:


> Hogtown, I am now a handicapped senior citizen.  I am being protected by the brave young men and women in the armed forces whatever their assignment.  I was once the young 20 year old combat soldier married to an m16.  I am sure I'm not the only one on here as a young person who fought for their country.  I still agree with Pigpen you can call them cos, but they are draftdoging cowards not deserving of their citizenship.  We can all thank one term Jimmy for their unconditional pardon.  I do agree with you on one point the actual killing of humans doesn't require that many soldiers.  Look what Truman did.



Pileit, were you drafted in?


----------



## pileit

pigpen1 said:


> Pileit, were you drafted in?



I was.  The co [coward option] only applied to religious orders that didn't want to observe the laws of the land.  I would like to have seen their position on taking up arms put to a true test.


----------



## pigpen1

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----------



## pigpen1

pileit said:


> I was.  The co [coward option] only applied to religious orders that didn't want to observe the laws of the land.  I would like to have seen their position on taking up arms put to a true test.



 I thank you for your service and not taking the coward option. The Bible says a man that will not work shouldn't eat. I think a Man that will not defend his family, land and Country would be worse than a Man that will not work and provide food for his family.


----------



## pigpen1

pileit said:


> I would like to have seen their position on taking up arms put to a true test.



 Me too, drop them in Iran and give them a M-16 and a plow shear and see which one they use.


----------



## BeenHuntn

pbradley said:


> Words have meanings.
> 
> I pledge
> allegiance
> to the flag of the United States of America, and to the
> Republic for which it stands (a symbol or representation of)
> in short, the long version would read something like this:
> I swear an oath of loyalty, as a subject or slave to a liege, to the government of the United States...
> Now, add two more elements:
> 1 - the pledge was written by a socialist, Francis Bellamy.
> 2 - Today, we teach our children to swear that oath of loyalty to the government with their hands placed over their hearts.  In some places, the teachers / administration (government employees) try to require the children to say the pledge.
> Remember, words mean things.  Words are symbols.  The modern symbol of bowing originated in displaying one's bare neck / head in an open manner, essentially offering up your head to whomever you were bowing to.
> Putting your hand over your heart while swearing a loyalty oath means you are swearing that oath on your life.
> Swear _on my life,_ an oath of loyalty written by a socialist, to the government?  I think not.



agreed. we (if Christian) are not commanded by God to align (pledge allegiance) with any gov't.

there is nothing wrong with loving your home country... nothing.  but the fed gov't and the country (united states) are different...  if not, why would SC and Texas even consider secession?

all the original states were founded based on Christianity. if you dont believe me than read their (the states) founding docs... the founding fathers would not allow things like christmas or even catholicism... you had to be a protestant to be a leader in their gov't...  dont curse me for sharing the facts... its in their founding docs!

THEN came the fed gov't... the states created the fed gov't... not the other way around... the fed gov't ONLY exists to support the states...

yet, in our day... the fed gov't has run amuch.  power stricken. tyrannical. power hungry. chaotic.

it is no longer an entity that exists to "support" the united states, which is what it was created for by the states... 

its like a cancer... a power hungry machine helll bent on power and ruling the 50 states and the world.

consider your president as the leader of the cancer that is destroying the 50 states...

why on earth would a true Christian "align" (pledge allegiance) with a gov't that:

drops bombs on innocent people
kill babies by the millions
steals money from its people and then gives it to enemies
enforces rules that are evil
create evil over and over
destroy everything that is Christian in this country
kick God out of gov't

folks, this country is about the 50 states and the people of the states... not about a crazy group of elite men of power that are destroying the country and leading the people to destruction...

isn't it funny how the Jews, said... "we have no king by Caesar...". its the same today. we have no king but osama.

why did Paul and Peter say that we (Christians) are pilgrims on this earth... ? God says over and over in the Bible that the world is evil, yet the sheep want to get right in the middle of that evil when they should be spreading the Gospel...

Christians should focus on Christ and stay away from politics and the evils of the world...


----------



## Double Barrel BB

Double Barrel BB said:


> Pop quiz hot shots:
> 
> Anyone know how Americans were first taught to hold their hands while pledging to the flag?
> 
> Hint... it wasn't over the heart....
> 
> DB BB


 

Anybody know?


----------



## Double Barrel BB

pbradley said:


> words have meanings.
> 
> I pledge
> 
> 
> 
> allegiance
> 
> 
> 
> to the flag of the united states of america, and to the
> 
> republic for which it stands (a symbol or representation of)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in short, the long version would read something like this:
> 
> I swear an oath of loyalty, as a subject or slave to a liege, to the government of the united states...
> 
> Now, add two more elements:
> 
> 1 - the pledge was written by a socialist, francis bellamy.
> 
> 2 - today, we teach our children to swear that oath of loyalty to the government with their hands placed over their hearts. In some places, the teachers / administration (government employees) try to require the children to say the pledge.
> 
> Remember, words mean things. Words are symbols. The modern symbol of bowing originated in displaying one's bare neck / head in an open manner, essentially offering up your head to whomever you were bowing to.
> 
> Putting your hand over your heart while swearing a loyalty oath means you are swearing that oath on your life.
> 
> Swear _on my life,_ an oath of loyalty written by a socialist, to the government? I think not.


 

*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## Double Barrel BB

Anyone know how Americans were first taught to hold their hands while pledging to the flag? 

1st Hint: it wasn't over the heart....

2nd Hint: It was a salute that was used by one of the most evil men to have ever lived.

DB BB


----------



## crackerdave

I think I've seen a photo of Obama with his hand there,while everybody around him had theirs over their heart.


----------



## ddd-shooter

BeenHuntn said:


> agreed. we (if Christian) are not commanded by God to align (pledge allegiance) with any gov't.
> 
> there is nothing wrong with loving your home country... nothing.  but the fed gov't and the country (united states) are different...  if not, why would SC and Texas even consider secession?
> 
> all the original states were founded based on Christianity. if you dont believe me than read their (the states) founding docs... the founding fathers would not allow things like christmas or even catholicism... you had to be a protestant to be a leader in their gov't...  dont curse me for sharing the facts... its in their founding docs!
> 
> THEN came the fed gov't... the states created the fed gov't... not the other way around... the fed gov't ONLY exists to support the states...
> 
> yet, in our day... the fed gov't has run amuch.  power stricken. tyrannical. power hungry. chaotic.
> 
> it is no longer an entity that exists to "support" the united states, which is what it was created for by the states...
> 
> its like a cancer... a power hungry machine helll bent on power and ruling the 50 states and the world.
> 
> consider your president as the leader of the cancer that is destroying the 50 states...
> 
> why on earth would a true Christian "align" (pledge allegiance) with a gov't that:
> 
> drops bombs on innocent people
> kill babies by the millions
> steals money from its people and then gives it to enemies
> enforces rules that are evil
> create evil over and over
> destroy everything that is Christian in this country
> kick God out of gov't
> 
> folks, this country is about the 50 states and the people of the states... not about a crazy group of elite men of power that are destroying the country and leading the people to destruction...
> 
> isn't it funny how the Jews, said... "we have no king by Caesar...". its the same today. we have no king but osama.
> 
> why did Paul and Peter say that we (Christians) are pilgrims on this earth... ? God says over and over in the Bible that the world is evil, yet the sheep want to get right in the middle of that evil when they should be spreading the Gospel...
> 
> Christians should focus on Christ and stay away from politics and the evils of the world...



This country was originally founded on a document called the Articles of Confederation. It was a government exactly as you described. Total state domination. IT FAILED and failed miserably. Maybe you should read up on it. 

Did you consider my post above?

How about the fact that nearly ALL the great men mentioned in the Bible influenced politics for the better?


----------



## BeenHuntn

ddd-shooter said:


> This country was originally founded on a document called the Articles of Confederation. It was a government exactly as you described. Total state domination. IT FAILED and failed miserably. Maybe you should read up on it.
> 
> Did you consider my post above?
> 
> How about the fact that nearly ALL the great men mentioned in the Bible influenced politics for the better?





politics is not mentioned in the Bible...

which Bible you reading...? the one put out by osama??  

3d, i love you man... but good grief... your allegiance is to Christ... not men.!!!!!


----------



## earl

DB BB it was the ''hitler'' salute. What do I win ?

BH ,this goes for all people. If you don't vote ,don't complain. Don't cry about the downfall of the ''Christian nation '' if you are doing nothing [voting] to stop it. 
whether you use the new pledge with ''under God'' or the old pledge without it, say it and mean it .


----------



## ddd-shooter

BeenHuntn said:


> politics is not mentioned in the Bible...
> 
> which Bible you reading...? the one put out by osama??
> 
> 3d, i love you man... but good grief... your allegiance is to Christ... not men.!!!!!



I love you to brother. Perhaps politics can be changed to government. If that doesn't work, insert king or kingdom. All fall under politics...

I cannot help but think this is what God would say to you BH:

Matthew 22
15Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk. 
   16And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. 
   17Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? 
   18But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? 
   19Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. 
   20And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? 
   21They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Do you pay taxes? 
If so, why contribute money to a government that commits the atrocities you mentioned above? 
That is far more evil than a simple pledge. Who said money talks?


----------



## BeenHuntn

earl said:


> DB BB it was the ''hitler'' salute. What do I win ?
> 
> BH ,this goes for all people. If you don't vote ,don't complain. Don't cry about the downfall of the ''Christian nation '' if you are doing nothing [voting] to stop it.
> whether you use the new pledge with ''under God'' or the old pledge without it, say it and mean it .



small e, i hear you... i do not vote but here's why... there are no Christian politicians...  Jesus said, "stay unspotted from the world..."... (Jam 1:27)

therefore i see it virtually impossible to be a "president" or whatever... and still be a true Christian... His sheep will obey this commandment... not break it. "My sheep hear My voice..." - Jesus

i would MUCH rather obey this command and be unspotted from this world then die famous and have to go before Christ and have to explain why i was president...

you see small e. God cannot contradict Himself... God is true to His Word, always. He cannot lie.

i do complain about gov't and the leaders and here's why... as much as you would love to think you have this kind of power... you and your "votes" do not put your candidates in power....

God and His soveriegnty puts people in power. whether osama or the king of arabia...

kings and rulers have been "put in power" for thousands of years without your vote...  

i knows its hard to believe that there was rulers before earl... but there was...  God puts them there... not us. how arrogant for men to think that they have anything to do with this...

1 Chronicles 28:4
Howbeit the LORD God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for He hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; 

1 Kings 1:35
Then ye shall come up after him, that he may come and sit upon my throne; for he shall be king in my stead: and I have appointed him to be ruler over Israel and over Judah...

Mark 5:37-39 
But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them...

small e... i do not pledge to men and i never will. i am a pilgrim here on this earth and have no allegiance to any man..

my allegiance is to God alone. no men. no gov't. no politician...

Jesus said...

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

man, what great hope for a small minded sinner like me...!!!!

come quickly Lord...!


----------



## Israel

Busted from NCO to airman, a month in the brig, then court martialed in 1978 because it was immediately apparent to me after coming up from the waters of baptism (by my private flight instructor/Captain/Chaiplain) that I no longer belonged to the USAF.
I asked them to forgive me for my ignorance in believing I could promise them my life, and they were free to do with me whatever they pleased...but that I knew I belonged to another, Jesus Christ. I was later discharged after the court martial.
I could not then, nor cannot now "press" my revelation on anyone else...and even in the intervening years my devotion to that understanding could easily be seen to wax and wane...but we all have been bought with a price...how far we will allow that understanding to take us only the Lord knows.


----------



## george hancox

I have amish blood in me,don't go by everything they say they are human too.You make a pledge to your wife and your children  and your country,But when you are baptized you make a pledge to our father to uphold him who upholds us and our familly and country.I surved to in 70 and 71 and my father and grandfather before me and aall beleive in both father  God and our country under him.


----------



## rjcruiser

rjcruiser said:


> It is called "Conscientious objector."
> 
> But I'll play....so let me ask you this.  The government tells you to reject your beliefs, curse your god and no longer preach the gospel.  What would you do?





rjcruiser said:


> Then why didn't David build the Temple?





rjcruiser said:


> Still no answers.




Still waiting



pigpen1 said:


> The Bible says a man that will not work shouldn't eat. I think a Man that will not defend his family, land and Country would be worse than a Man that will not work and provide food for his family.



So now we have the Bible and the Gospel according to Pigpen.  What amazes me is that you can call youreself a preacher of God's Word, yet hold your personal opinions higher than God's Word.


----------



## pigpen1

rjcruiser said:


> Still waiting
> 
> 
> 
> So now we have the Bible and the Gospel according to Pigpen.  What amazes me is that you can call youreself a preacher of God's Word, yet hold your personal opinions higher than God's Word.



Keep'em coming, you amuse me...

 Show us some more please, you are so smart....PLEASE...wow us with your wisdom all mighty rj.


----------



## Double Barrel BB

earl said:


> DB BB it was the ''hitler'' salute. What do I win ?


 
The satisfaction that you are right.

DB BB


----------



## Rich Kaminski

*The states give the federal Govt its powers*

and the states can take those powers away too.
Secession although a reserved right in Texas and Alaska and I do npot know what other states, is still an option for all states!
Just because a piece of paper was use to coerse states into joining the union does not mean that the states need to abide by what that piece of oparer has printed on it...
Laws are broken everyday and the government turns its back on the law breakers (Illegals for instance), the government also operates covert operations, brings drugs into the country and uses the profits to finance thier covert operations in foreign countries; plotting the overthrow of rulers of foreign nations (which we are not supposed to do by law). So why let a little piece of useless paper stand in the way of the states best interests? If states want to break away from the Socialist Government of the USA - they should! They would need to first determine a standard currency (because the break away states would out number the 6-9 states that the new country wouldn't want in their group anyway (you know, the welfare states who want Socialism - NY, NJ, Conn, Calif, Mich, Mass, Maryland, Rhode Island, etc). We do not need those states, we do not agree with their agenda and the businerssses in those states would flock to the new country because not only do we have over 90% of the military bases in the country, but we would have much lower taxes including business taxes.
I am not trying to high jack your thread, so if the Moderator feels that this would better belong in a different section - feel free to move it.


----------



## BeenHuntn

Rich Kaminski said:


> and the states can take those powers away too.
> Secession although a reserved right in Texas and Alaska and I do npot know what other states, is still an option for all states!
> Just because a piece of paper was use to coerse states into joining the union does not mean that the states need to abide by what that piece of oparer has printed on it...
> Laws are broken everyday and the government turns its back on the law breakers (Illegals for instance), the government also operates covert operations, brings drugs into the country and uses the profits to finance thier covert operations in foreign countries; plotting the overthrow of rulers of foreign nations (which we are not supposed to do by law). So why let a little piece of useless paper stand in the way of the states best interests? If states want to break away from the Socialist Government of the USA - they should! They would need to first determine a standard currency (because the break away states would out number the 6-9 states that the new country wouldn't want in their group anyway (you know, the welfare states who want Socialism - NY, NJ, Conn, Calif, Mich, Mass, Maryland, Rhode Island, etc). We do not need those states, we do not agree with their agenda and the businerssses in those states would flock to the new country because not only do we have over 90% of the military bases in the country, but we would have much lower taxes including business taxes.
> I am not trying to high jack your thread, so if the Moderator feels that this would better belong in a different section - feel free to move it.


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> there are no Christian politicians...



Disagree completely.


----------



## earl

BeenHuntn said:


> small e, i hear you... i do not vote but here's why... there are no Christian politicians...  Jesus said, "stay unspotted from the world..."... (Jam 1:27)
> 
> therefore i see it virtually impossible to be a "president" or whatever... and still be a true Christian... His sheep will obey this commandment... not break it. "My sheep hear My voice..." - Jesus
> 
> i would MUCH rather obey this command and be unspotted from this world then die famous and have to go before Christ and have to explain why i was president...
> 
> you see small e. God cannot contradict Himself... God is true to His Word, always. He cannot lie.
> 
> i do complain about gov't and the leaders and here's why... as much as you would love to think you have this kind of power... you and your "votes" do not put your candidates in power....
> 
> God and His soveriegnty puts people in power. whether osama or the king of arabia...
> 
> kings and rulers have been "put in power" for thousands of years without your vote...
> 
> i knows its hard to believe that there was rulers before earl... but there was...  God puts them there... not us. how arrogant for men to think that they have anything to do with this...
> 
> 1 Chronicles 28:4
> Howbeit the LORD God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for He hath chosen Judah to be the ruler;
> 
> 1 Kings 1:35
> Then ye shall come up after him, that he may come and sit upon my throne; for he shall be king in my stead: and I have appointed him to be ruler over Israel and over Judah...
> 
> Mark 5:37-39
> But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them...
> 
> small e... i do not pledge to men and i never will. i am a pilgrim here on this earth and have no allegiance to any man..
> 
> my allegiance is to God alone. no men. no gov't. no politician...
> 
> Jesus said...
> 
> John 18:36
> Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
> 
> man, what great hope for a small minded sinner like me...!!!!
> 
> come quickly Lord...!






If ,as you say, God put these men in power, what is the problem ? Who are you to question if his ''picks'' are Christian ? If he put Obama in you probably ought not say the nasty things about him that you do.


----------



## earl

Double Barrel BB said:


> The satisfaction that you are right.
> 
> DB BB



You know that is an every day occurrence for me.


----------



## BeenHuntn

earl said:


> If ,as you say, God put these men in power, what is the problem ? Who are you to question if his ''picks'' are Christian ? If he put Obama in you probably ought not say the nasty things about him that you do.



God is soveriegn and He raises nations and destroys nations. i am not "questioning" His picks. i am nobody to "question" God... if He allows a VERY EVIL man like osama to become president, than He has a reason for it. and i dont question that reason either. actually its none of my my business who He raises up or puts down.

satan is allowed (by the sovereignty of God) to run wild on the earth deceiving as many as he can... why God allows it, i dont know for sure. probably because of sin and the ignorance of people. i will find it for sure after i die. but i dont question it nor curse it. its all part of God's plan.

i love this country as an american and i thank God that He allowed me to be born here verses Iran (ex.)... but i hate the evil things that our gov't does. i dont hate the gov't because it was set up by God and is allowed by God, but I DO hate the evil that this gov't does. as a child of God, i am commanded to hate evil and love what is good. so thats what i try to do...

and its not always God that puts these men in power. satan is the god of this world and he can put people in power as well, with the sovereign approval of God...

osama is an instrument of satan approved of by God. i am nobody to question that... but no i am not gonna vote for him or anyone else, unless they were a true Christian. Jesus said, "My kingdon is not of this world..."... if Jesus' kingdom was not of this world... neither is mine. i am a pilgrim just passing thru and i will not get involved in political affairs of satan.


----------



## earl

''osama is an instrument of satan approved of by God.''

You are gonna have to explain that one for me. God approves of something Satan does ??????????


----------



## pileit

rjcruiser said:


> It is called "Conscientious objector."
> 
> But I'll play....so let me ask you this.  The government tells you to reject your beliefs, curse your god and no longer preach the gospel.  What would you do?



I hope it never comes to this.  I will exercise my right to vote, let my voice be heard to local, state and national leaders.  I will not down grade our leaders and make some of the frivilous accusations some have made.  I say this to answer you question.  I was in one war on foreign soil where I was willing to die for a lesser cause.  I am older now and if it came to that I think I still have some fight left and it would be for a much better cause.  I would not stand back and cling to the cos as a substitute for cowardice.


----------



## rjcruiser

pileit said:


> rjcruiser said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is called "Conscientious objector."
> 
> But I'll play....so let me ask you this.  The government tells you to reject your beliefs, curse your god and no longer preach the gospel.  What would you do?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope it never comes to this.  I will exercise my right to vote, let my voice be heard to local, state and national leaders.  I will not down grade our leaders and make some of the frivilous accusations some have made.  I say this to answer you question.  I was in one war on foreign soil where I was willing to die for a lesser cause.  I am older now and if it came to that I think I still have some fight left and it would be for a much better cause.  I would not stand back and cling to the cos as a substitute for cowardice.
Click to expand...


So how is that any different than what the amish/mennonites did during the war?  Rather than compromise their belief's, they decided to move to a different country or suffer the legal consequences of not going to war.


----------



## BeenHuntn

earl said:


> ''osama is an instrument of satan approved of by God.''
> 
> You are gonna have to explain that one for me. God approves of something Satan does ??????????



this may help.

http://www.evaldon.com/christian/uph5.htm

the book of Job does a great job of explaining how satan is used for the salvation of men.

also...

1 Corinthians 5:5
5 To deliver such an one (a carnal Christian) unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh (satan allowed to disrupt the sinners life), so that the spirit (the Christians soul) may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

satan trys to destroy Christians but God turns it into their salvation!!! 

Glory to God!!


----------



## pileit

rjcruiser said:


> So how is that any different than what the amish/mennonites did during the war?  Rather than compromise their belief's, they decided to move to a different country or suffer the legal consequences of not going to war.




   I would stay and defend those freedoms for myself and other Americans, if it meant my life it would be for a worth while cause.  This beachy mennonite whose comment about pledging alegeance to the flag wasn't in another country.  I am in complete agreement if they decide to move to another country rather than compromise, just don't come back.


----------



## rjcruiser

pileit said:


> rjcruiser said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how is that any different than what the amish/mennonites did during the war?  Rather than compromise their belief's, they decided to move to a different country or suffer the legal consequences of not going to war.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would stay and defend those freedoms for myself and other Americans, if it meant my life it would be for a worth while cause.  This beachy mennonite whose comment about pledging alegeance to the flag wasn't in another country.  I am in complete agreement if they decide to move to another country rather than compromise, just don't come back.
Click to expand...


So who determines if it is a worthwhile cause?  You see, just because someone else's beliefs don't match yours, you can't call them a traitor or coward.

Afterall....wasn't this country founded upon religious freedom?


----------



## ambush80

earl said:


> ''osama is an instrument of satan approved of by God.''
> 
> You are gonna have to explain that one for me. God approves of something Satan does ??????????



Satan is God's lap dog.  No offense to your dog.


----------



## pileit

rjcruiser said:


> it is called "conscientious objector."
> 
> but i'll play....so let me ask you this.  The government tells you to reject your beliefs, curse your god and no longer preach the gospel.  What would you do?



i answered your ouestion what i would do if:  The government tells you reject your beliefs, curse God and no longer preach the gospel.  What would you do?  Lets keep the answer based on the question you asked.  Would you stand and fight, run to another country, or submit?


----------



## pigpen1

rjcruiser said:


> Afterall....wasn't this country founded upon religious freedom?



 Yes and it took war for it to be founded.

From  what some on here are saying, it would have been better for this country to have been took over by a muslim nation and all Christians be beheaded, than for us to fight for our right to worship and have the power to spread the Gospel around the world.

 Just think, if all American Christians from the first settlers until now would have had the same belief as these mennonites and amish. There would have never been a USA and by now the whole world would be muslim or communists and thus many people would never of had the chance of hearing about Christ.

 How many missionaries have went into the world under the protection this  country has provided?


----------



## Ronnie T

pigpen1 said:


> Yes and it took war for it to be founded.
> 
> From  what some on here are saying, it would have been better for this country to have been took over by a muslim nation and all Christians be beheaded, than for us to fight for our right to worship and have the power to spread the Gospel around the world.
> 
> *Just think, if all American Christians from the first settlers until now would have had the same belief as these mennonites and amish. There would have never been a USA and by now the whole world would be muslim or communists and thus many people would never of had *the chance of hearing about Christ.
> 
> How many missionaries have went into the world under the protection this  country has provided?




That may or may not be true.  I don't think we can know for sure.
Maybe all the world would be Christian by now.
Maybe God is not pleased with our "fighting and killing" for our religious freedom.
The 1st century church certainly didn't fight and kill for religion.  Rather, thay stood and gave their lives.

Who's to know.


I wonder, when are we going to beat our swords into plows?


----------



## crackerdave

earl said:


> ''osama is an instrument of satan approved of by God.''
> 
> You are gonna have to explain that one for me. God approves of something Satan does ??????????



I would say "allows" instead of "approves."Just as He allowed Satan to kick Job's butt.


----------



## pigpen1

Ronnie T said:


> That may or may not be true.  I don't think we can know for sure.
> Maybe all the world would be Christian by now.
> Maybe God is not pleased with our "fighting and killing" for our religious freedom.
> The 1st century church certainly didn't fight and kill for religion.  Rather, thay stood and gave their lives.
> 
> Who's to know.
> 
> 
> I wonder, when are we going to beat our swords into plows?



 No, Ronnie. It is a fact that this Country would not be here if it had not been for Christians that took up arms and many other countries have had the opportunity to hear the Gospel because of this nation. 

 We can play games of "well we don't know for sure", but what would have happened around the world if this country had not had the strong military it did during WWII?


----------



## Israel

pigpen1 said:


> Yes and it took war for it to be founded.
> 
> From  what some on here are saying, it would have been better for this country to have been took over by a muslim nation and all Christians be beheaded, than for us to fight for our right to worship and have the power to spread the Gospel around the world.
> 
> Just think, if all American Christians from the first settlers until now would have had the same belief as these mennonites and amish. There would have never been a USA and by now the whole world would be muslim or communists and thus many people would never of had the chance of hearing about Christ.
> 
> How many missionaries have went into the world under the protection this  country has provided?



That argument doesn't hold water.
Jesus said "pay your taxes"  not "pay your taxes if you have adequate representation."

The spirit teaches honor the King, not rebel against him if you don't like the way he treats you. Who had better reason to lead a revolt...Paul....or Thomas Jefferson and his comrades?

Some of the men who lead the war for independence may indeed have been believers, as I am sure they were. 

But that doesn't make the establishment of this nation a "christian" endeavor...


But what is accomplished by obedience to God is always hidden from the sight of those who believe in man's expediency.

We are seeing, and will continue to see the fruits of rebellion...even here...


----------



## pigpen1

Israel said:


> That argument doesn't hold water.
> Jesus said "pay your taxes"  not "pay your taxes if you have adequate representation."
> 
> The spirit teaches honor the King, not rebel against him if you don't like the way he treats you. Who had better reason to lead a revolt...Paul....or Thomas Jefferson and his comrades?
> 
> Some of the men who lead the war for independence may indeed have been believers, as I am sure they were.
> 
> But that doesn't make the establishment of this nation a "christian" endeavor...
> 
> 
> But what is accomplished by obedience to God is always hidden from the sight of those who believe in man's expediency.
> 
> We are seeing, and will continue to see the fruits of rebellion...even here...




That is your opinion my friend. 

 We would be speaking German if it was left up to people like you.

Eccl 3:1-8
3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die ; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.KJV


----------



## ambush80

crackerdave said:


> I would say "allows" instead of "approves."Just as He allowed Satan to kick Job's butt.



What's difference really?  If I'm the master of my dog and I allowed her to chew the neighbor's kid's face off or approved the action,  it's the same to the kid; who now thinks I'm a jerk.

I mean, if I could stop the dog, why wouldn't I?


----------



## Ronnie T

pigpen1 said:


> No, Ronnie. It is a fact that this Country would not be here if it had not been for Christians that took up arms and many other countries have had the opportunity to hear the Gospel because of this nation.
> 
> We can play games of "well we don't know for sure", but what would have happened around the world if this country had not had the strong military it did during WWII?




Well, I still don't know.
I don't know if God would have interdicted himself into the situation in a different way or not.
I'm not saying our past shouldn't have happened the way it did, but I'm I'm just an old hick trying to please God.
I'm not the smartest knife in the draw.


----------



## Marine46

Back to the original subject, If you are unsure where you  should or should not  pledge your allegiance,  join the Marines or at least befriend  one.  Why you ask, well we will be the ones guarding the gates in Heaven.

Marines don’t judge, we just arrange the meeting.


----------



## pigpen1

Marine46 said:


> Marines don’t judge, we just arrange the meeting.


----------



## Marine46




----------



## Ronnie T

crack me up!


----------



## SSgt Wilbanks

I pledge both. My mind, heart and soul to God. My strenth and unique skill set that god gave me I pledge to that piece of  beautiful cloth that so many before me made sure I would be able to defend now that it is my turn.


----------



## Israel

pigpen1 said:


> That is your opinion my friend.
> 
> We would be speaking German if it was left up to people like you.
> 
> Eccl 3:1-8
> 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
> 
> 2 A time to be born, and a time to die ; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
> 
> 3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
> 
> 4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
> 
> 5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
> 
> 6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
> 
> 7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
> 
> 8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.KJV



First, what's wrong with speaking German?

I guess I do get the implication, though, about its significance vis a vis people like me.

Matthew 5: 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: Matthew 5: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

You can listen to the law, or you can listen to Jesus.

You can listen to what you quoted above as a justification for war and killing, which is not even the law...simply a statement of the condition of men...and from that, then decide at what point someone is enough of an enemy to merit killing. 
Religion always does that. 
There's always a point with religion at which the verdict of "opposition to God" is finally pronounced and killing justified.

I know many that love to take their stand on their carnal accomplishments, bravado, and who mistakenly, and proudly, boast (as also mentioned in another post)
marines will guard the gates of heaven.

I don't think you yet realize how weak marines are.
I don't think you yet realize what liberty is, what life is, who Jesus is.
 If you think he needs a marine, or a legion, to guard anything, you are sadly mistaken.

Marines don't go to heaven. Disciples do. If one happens to also wear that uniform when he is called home to the Lord, it will surely not be his flag, nor his sabre, nor his ribbons that gain him entrance.

Your appeal is to flesh, not spirit, your hope is in carnal things, not life incorruptible.


----------



## pigpen1

SSgt Wilbanks said:


> I pledge both. My mind, heart and soul to God. My strenth and unique skill set that god gave me I pledge to that piece of  beautiful cloth that so many before me made sure I would be able to defend now that it is my turn.



 Amen! Thank You and Marine46 for your sacrifice and service. Thank You for protecting this land and giving morons and cowards a place they can lay their heads in safety, because I know that you men fight to keep us all free, even if some in this land are to stupid to appreciate it and help support the cause.

 I read in the Bible where Moses, Aaron, and Hur were on a hill looking down as Joshua and Israel were fighting a battle and as long as Moses held up his hands up then Israel would prevail, but if moses got weak and his arms dropped they would begin to lose the battle. So Aaron and Hur got Moses a seat and they held his arms up until the sun went down and Israel was victorious. I, like so many others in this land want to support you guys in every manner possible, so that we may continue to prevail here and abroad.

Ex 17:10-13

10 So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron , and Hur went up to the top of the hill.

11 And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed.

12 But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.

13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.
KJV

  Thank You Again for all you and the rest do to keep us free.


----------



## pigpen1

Israel said:


> Busted from NCO to airman, a month in the brig, then court martialed in 1978 because it was immediately apparent to me after coming up from the waters of baptism (by my private flight instructor/Captain/Chaiplain) that I no longer belonged to the USAF.
> I asked them to forgive me for my ignorance in believing I could promise them my life, and they were free to do with me whatever they pleased...but that I knew I belonged to another, Jesus Christ. I was later discharged after the court martial.
> I could not then, nor cannot now "press" my revelation on anyone else...and even in the intervening years my devotion to that understanding could easily be seen to wax and wane...but we all have been bought with a price...how far we will allow that understanding to take us only the Lord knows.



Num 32:6

6 And Moses said unto the children of Gad and to the children of Reuben, Shall your brethren go to war , and shall ye sit here?


----------



## gordon 2

Marine46 said:


> Back to the original subject, If you are unsure where you  should or should not  pledge your allegiance,  join the Marines or at least befriend  one.  Why you ask, well we will be the ones guarding the gates in Heaven.
> 
> Marines don’t judge, we just arrange the meeting.



Where Airborne was before you got there and after you left.


----------



## pileit

pigpen1 said:


> Num 32:6
> 
> 6 And Moses said unto the children of Gad and to the children of Reuben, Shall your brethren go to war , and shall ye sit here?




X"S 2


----------



## rjcruiser

pigpen1 said:


> From  what some on here are saying, it would have been better for this country to have been took over by a muslim nation and all Christians be beheaded, than for us to fight for our right to worship and have the power to spread the Gospel around the world.



I must have missed that post.  Can you please quote it?

I would say, that kinda reminds me of the book of Daniel and his 3 friends.  Last I read, when Shadrach, Meshack and Abednego were comanded to bow to Nebucanezzar's statue or die, they did fight or resist...they chose to die for God.  



Israel said:


> Matthew 5: 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: Matthew 5: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
> 
> You can listen to the law, or you can listen to Jesus.
> 
> You can listen to what you quoted above as a justification for war and killing, which is not even the law...simply a statement of the condition of men...and from that, then decide at what point someone is enough of an enemy to merit killing.
> Religion always does that.
> There's always a point with religion at which the verdict of "opposition to God" is finally pronounced and killing justified.
> 
> I know many that love to take their stand on their carnal accomplishments, bravado, and who mistakenly, and proudly, boast (as also mentioned in another post)
> marines will guard the gates of heaven.
> 
> I don't think you yet realize how weak marines are.
> I don't think you yet realize what liberty is, what life is, who Jesus is.
> If you think he needs a marine, or a legion, to guard anything, you are sadly mistaken.
> 
> Marines don't go to heaven. Disciples do. If one happens to also wear that uniform when he is called home to the Lord, it will surely not be his flag, nor his sabre, nor his ribbons that gain him entrance.
> 
> Your appeal is to flesh, not spirit, your hope is in carnal things, not life incorruptible.







pigpen1 said:


> Thank You for protecting this land and giving morons and cowards a place they can lay their heads in safety, because I know that you men fight to keep us all free, even if some in this land are to stupid to appreciate it and help support the cause.



Wow...your disdain for those who don't think exactly like you is surpising.  For a Pastor, you sure let your emotions get the best of you.  Calling those who don't believe in going to war "Stupid" and "Morons."

Matthew 5:22 

 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery he!!'


----------



## pigpen1

rjcruiser said:


> I must have missed that post.  Can you please quote it?
> 
> I would say, that kinda reminds me of the book of Daniel and his 3 friends.  Last I read, when Shadrach, Meshack and Abednego were comanded to bow to Nebucanezzar's statue or die, they did fight or resist...they chose to die for God.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow...your disdain for those who don't think exactly like you is surpising.  For a Pastor, you sure let your emotions get the best of you.  Calling those who don't believe in going to war "Stupid" and "Morons."
> 
> Matthew 5:22
> 
> "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery he!!'



 HE POSTED, HE POSTED!!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!!! for your words of wisdom.


----------



## pigpen1

Ex 15:3

3 The LORD is a man of war : the LORD is his name.
KJV


----------



## gordon 2

pigpen1 said:


> Ex 15:3
> 
> 3 The LORD is a man of war : the LORD is his name.
> KJV



There you go! The muslims are not entirely off base.


----------



## BeenHuntn

*do some research...*

some of you folks really need to research a topic before offering your opinion.  isnt the name of this forum have the word "study" in it???

most of yall think just because a politician says something "it must be true" or if a doctor says something... "it must be true"...

thats the blind leading the blind and both will fall in a ditch. i believe it was God that said those wise words...

if you have any desire for the truth about the pledge you will do some research... c'mon, folks. i got 4 kids and 2 jobs anc i can study the topic.

the pledge was written by a socialist nut with greater intentions than just getting the people to recite a nice little pledge making one a "patriot"...  the pledge does not make you a patriot...

anyway, if you want historical and Biblical truth on the pledge, take some time to learn about it... otherwise your opinion is just, well... an opinion, and is not knowledge...
why dont we turn some of these opinions into knowledge???

Hosea 4:6 My people perish from a lack of "knowledge"...

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.a...y=false&SpeakerOnly=true&keywordwithin=pledge


----------



## ddd-shooter

You reckon God gets tired of people calling him down on their side?

"Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right” Abraham Lincoln when asked if God was on his sidein the Civil War.


----------



## Israel

As one who may or may not be "to [sic] stupid" to support the cause of imagined freedom, I can only pray I be found in the day of the Lord as one not too stupid to mistake the false for the real. Or that which man fights to possess but which the Lord gives freely.
Real liberty is only gained through the cross of Christ, and no man can ever be coerced to go there at gunpoint.
Having not been called into the service of men, but the Lord's gospel, you will find I have not said anything to rebuke those called otherwise. That is between the Lord and themselves. 
A disciple may indeed be found to be wearing a service uniform, but don't imagine for a moment that God is impressed with the insignia on the shoulder. One who believes himself called to shepherd the flock of God should understand this. All those other carnal things are simply emblems, symbols in which men take pride, but which, I assure you have no place in God's Kingdom.

You seem to imagine yourself a man of insight and perhaps with some prophetic understanding. So much so that you are prepared to say what would have come to pass had such and such not happened. 
And so, armed with what you imagine would be the horrendous outcome "we would all be speaking German", you are prepared to endorse the rebellion in which this nation established itself as God's endorsement.
You are a bit silly, for you are not the only one who may be given to such vain supposings.
Let me join you in it.

Christian colonists, willing to suffer seeming unjust treatment (but still not equal to being thrown to the lions) decide to pay their taxes to King George, and are loathe to rebel. They remain subjects of the King of England.
Over time they receive more equitable treatment, we are after all, speaking of the British...(or perhaps you think them as barbaric as the Germans?) And, due to the size and power of their huge empire peace reigns in the world for many years (and then likewise the gospel spreads, or is Great Britain a peculiarly heretical nation?)...And in the last century when one disgruntled and psychopathic demonized Austrian individual thinks he might mobilize his people around hatred for Jews and rise to power, the wiser among them, seeing the might and size of their European/New World neighbor, demur and pay him no attention. 

Do you really want to play "what might have been"...and thereby think you can extol what you consider Godly outcomes to advance your distorted view of both the gospel and Christ?
This is not a game where you puff your chest out, pound your fist upon it and demand God take care of all dem forners with the help of your M-16.
The USA is not the Kingdom of God, never was, never will be.
And while you're at it, step outta that pulpit you imagine God called you to.


----------



## BeenHuntn

ddd-shooter said:


> You reckon God gets tired of people calling him down on their side?
> 
> "Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right” Abraham Lincoln when asked if God was on his sidein the Civil War.



3d, did you listen to those teachings on the pledge yet?


----------



## pileit

Israel said:


> And while you're at it, step outta that pulpit you imagine God called you to.




Sir, some people opinions disagree.  Some may find themselves to be more humble and others extreme.  You sir are not God to question someones calling and order them to step outta that pulpit.


----------



## Israel

pileit said:


> Sir, some people opinions disagree.  Some may find themselves to be more humble and others extreme.  You sir are not God to question someones calling and order them to step outta that pulpit.



First, no need to call me sir.
Secondly, men install themselves more often than not, and if it's not God my words won't mean a thing.
Third, men who love pulpits and are loathe to step outta them are the very ones that need to.


----------



## BeenHuntn

BeenHuntn said:


> 3d, did you listen to those teachings on the pledge yet?



well? did you listen to them... dont act like that you;re not here...


----------



## ddd-shooter

Just got here. 
No I haven't. Haven't been able to hook up my audio yet.

Could you give me a synopsis? The "jist" if you will...


----------



## BeenHuntn

ddd-shooter said:


> Just got here.
> No I haven't. Haven't been able to hook up my audio yet.
> 
> Could you give me a synopsis? The "jist" if you will...



i really cant... this man is the best preacher i have ever heard... he will knock your socks off with the Truth of the Bible...

i promise, 3d, its worth your time... in fact, he has many teachings on Biblical gov't that are awesome... i cannot do it justice. wouldnt even try... this man forgets more in a day than i will ever know...


----------



## heavymetalhunter

Swamp Runner said:


> Isn't goverment an instituition set forth by God?



no. government is an institution of people who just want to control everyone and take everyones money. wait, now that i think about it, maybe it is set forth by god.


----------



## gordon 2

pileit said:


> Sir, some people opinions disagree.  Some may find themselves to be more humble and others extreme.  You sir are not God to question someones calling and order them to step outta that pulpit.



No need to tell Isreal he is not God. Isreal knows.

Isreal is entitled to his opinion.

It is not unknown that preachers and pastors lead their folks astray--from which the opinion take a hike Mike is appropriate.

On a more general scale it is possible for any man to practice his fellowship from the depts of his belly or from his economic reality and claim it to be spirit lead. In the same way the bible was used  to accord for the case of slavery,--  so it can with war and quite contrary to the Good News. Often the tell tail leads are the use of the Old Testament passages as justification for the way Jesus ministered and so falsely planted into the folk as being in accord to the Good News.


----------



## SneakyOne

*Wow...*

I never would have thought that this many people, on this particular website, would have such an issue pledging allegiance to this country. Its honestly hard to sit and listen to. It disgusts me. So, go ahead and enjoy your right to sit and debate over this apparently, "life altering great-debate of people with the reasoning capacity of an ant."
You question allegiance to the very country that gives you the right to debate over this in the first place. Well, after you decide that you are incapable of Pledging Allegiance to this great country, move. Leave. Go. I hear Canada is always looking for a few good men.


----------



## heavymetalhunter

SneakyOne said:


> Well, after you decide that you are incapable of Pledging Allegiance to this once great country....



fixed it for ya'

i can tell that you are very shot up with starts and stripes. i, for one, do not see the point of the "pledge of allegiance" ritual. does standing there looking at the flag and saying a goofy little chant make someone that much more of a person? if america was half the country it once was, i might would actually consider being an overly patriotic person. i love this country for what it is supposed to be, and hate it for everything it has become.


----------



## SneakyOne

heavymetalhunter said:


> fixed it for ya'
> 
> i can tell that you are very shot up with starts and stripes. i, for one, do not see the point of the "pledge of allegiance" ritual. does standing there looking at the flag and saying a goofy little chant make someone that much more of a person? if america was half the country it once was, i might would actually consider being an overly patriotic person. i love this country for what it is supposed to be, and hate it for everything it has become.


I get what your saying. Believe me, I don't love everything this country has become. Yeah, taxes suck. I get it. Politicians are crooked, roger.HOWEVER, spend some time in a third-world country, then come back, and tell me you don't appreciate the things afforded to you here. When you drive to Walmart this afternoon, you won't be worried about running over a bomb, or, being stopped at a checkpoint, and being executed for/for not being a certain religion. It isn't perfect, but it is what we have. And, it is a lot better than most of your other options. Regardless, this wasn't the "debate" to begin with. I will turn it back over to the people looking to get something out of this...


----------



## heavymetalhunter

SneakyOne said:


> I get what your saying. Believe me, I don't love everything this country has become. Yeah, taxes suck. I get it. Politicians are crooked, roger.HOWEVER, spend some time in a third-world country, then come back, and tell me you don't appreciate the things afforded to you here.



your like me. i dont like it here, but its better than the alternative. lesser of 2 evils i suppose.


----------



## Israel

SneakyOne said:


> I never would have thought that this many people, on this particular website, would have such an issue pledging allegiance to this country. Its honestly hard to sit and listen to. It disgusts me. So, go ahead and enjoy your right to sit and debate over this apparently, "life altering great-debate of people with the reasoning capacity of an ant."
> You question allegiance to the very country that gives you the right to debate over this in the first place. Well, after you decide that you are incapable of Pledging Allegiance to this great country, move. Leave. Go. I hear Canada is always looking for a few good men.



What upsets you is what upsets the devil, not getting the acknowledgment you feel you and your opinion deserves.

No one ran down this country, but like all men you want a vow. You want to own a soul. You want something with which you can bind men to what you are bound to. That's what the world and it's leader is always after.
It's not enough to obey, you want the vow and pledge, too. For then you have the heart.
See, God is just the opposite...he doesn't care for our vows and pledges and promises at all...just simple acknowledgment of the truth, as demonstrated through obedience.
Let your yes be yes and your no be no.

If you don't begin to understand that...then you are right where you need to be, on a spiritual forum.


----------



## SneakyOne

Israel said:


> What upsets you is what upsets the devil, not getting the acknowledgment you feel you and your opinion deserves.
> 
> No one ran down this country, but like all men you want a vow. You want to own a soul. You want something with which you can bind men to what you are bound to. That's what the world and it's leader is always after.
> It's not enough to obey, you want the vow and pledge, too. For then you have the heart.
> See, God is just the opposite...he doesn't care for our vows and pledges and promises at all...just simple acknowledgment of the truth, as demonstrated through obedience.
> Let your yes be yes and your no be no.
> 
> If you don't begin to understand that...then you are right where you need to be, on a spiritual forum.


He who has all the answers...
I'm glad you know EXACTLY who I am, and what I am about. Maybe your not getting the acknowledgment you feel you and your opinion deserves? Why is this forum even here? It seems I should just take a number and wait for YOU to tell me what I should and shouldn't be. No thanks. Please do not feel compelled to respond. If I thought I needed guidance, I would have clicked on a different thread.


----------



## pileit

SneakyOne said:


> He who has all the answers...
> I'm glad you know EXACTLY who I am, and what I am about. Maybe your not getting the acknowledgment you feel you and your opinion deserves? Why is this forum even here? It seems I should just take a number and wait for YOU to tell me what I should and shouldn't be. No thanks. Please do not feel compelled to respond. If I thought I needed guidance, I would have clicked on a different thread.



Amen and Amen.


----------



## Israel

SneakyOne said:


> He who has all the answers...
> I'm glad you know EXACTLY who I am, and what I am about. Maybe your not getting the acknowledgment you feel you and your opinion deserves? Why is this forum even here? It seems I should just take a number and wait for YOU to tell me what I should and shouldn't be. No thanks. Please do not feel compelled to respond. If I thought I needed guidance, I would have clicked on a different thread.



Not all the answers...maybe just ones you don't like. That's OK.

If you like pledges...have your fill of them.

I'll rather abide with he who said let your yes be yes and your no be no.

Don't be deceived into imagining red white and blue pride somehow passes God's sniff test.

As to your little offhand about Canada...there's a brother who lives there remarkably free of the silly national entanglements you seem to embrace.
But be assured, if he were in your condition he'd be just as offended at your remark about Canada as the high dudgeon provoked in you by someones unwillingness to portray Jesus with stars and stripes on his shoulders.


----------



## SneakyOne

Israel said:


> Not all the answers...maybe just ones you don't like. That's OK.
> 
> If you like pledges...have your fill of them.
> 
> I'll rather abide with he who said let your yes be yes and your no be no.
> 
> Don't be deceived into imagining red white and blue pride somehow passes God's sniff test.
> 
> As to your little offhand about Canada...there's a brother who lives there remarkably free of the silly national entanglements you seem to embrace.
> But be assured, if he were in your condition he'd be just as offended at your remark about Canada as the high dudgeon provoked in you by someones unwillingness to portray Jesus with stars and stripes on his shoulders.


What? OK, the poke at Canada is just that, a poke. Relax. As far as passing God's sniff test, man isn't perfect. God knows that. If your going to sit there and tell me that I will be condemned to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- for pledging allegiance to the US, maybe YOU should be surfing the threads for some guidance. I don't know all, and I accept that. You on the other hand... not so much. NOW, what do you say we let this man have his thread back?


----------



## SneakyOne

Really? Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- I thought we were grown ups?


----------



## pigpen1

SneakyOne said:


> He who has all the answers...
> I'm glad you know EXACTLY who I am, and what I am about. Maybe your not getting the acknowledgment you feel you and your opinion deserves? Why is this forum even here? It seems I should just take a number and wait for YOU to tell me what I should and shouldn't be. No thanks. Please do not feel compelled to respond. If I thought I needed guidance, I would have clicked on a different thread.



Amen Brother!


----------



## Israel

This thread began as in consideration of the spiritual implications of the pledge of allegiance...but as included in the original...by extension...any "pledge" by a believer to anything except the Lord Jesus. 
Some are very comfortable making allegiances with things of this world...others, as I suspect even the original poster discovered, find it a bit troubling to the soul. 
When it becomes clear why men require pledges and promises, and why men get equally offended when they are not rendered with the due devotion they imagine they deserve...it is obvious there are spiritual matters at stake.
You are right when you say God knows we are not yet perfect...but will you grant that Jesus has told us to be so?
Will you grant that by the power in the word of Christ to accomplish all things he speaks...we shall be?
Your original expression of disgust at those with the reasoning ability of an ant, as you said, who might be finding that Jesus alone has the rights over us, that we have been bought with a price...and we are no longer our own to simply go about promising this or that of ourselves to things of the earth, is deeply nauseating?
Does it bother you that it's plain to me where those feelings of disgust originate? 
I have no power to grant anyone entrance or deny it, but I do have authority to know what spirit is speaking when men take their stand on earthy things. As do you, if you are a believer.

Exercise it.


----------



## SneakyOne

Israel said:


> This thread began as in consideration of the spiritual implications of the pledge of allegiance...but as included in the original...by extension...any "pledge" by a believer to anything except the Lord Jesus.
> Some are very comfortable making allegiances with things of this world...others, as I suspect even the original poster discovered, find it a bit troubling to the soul.
> When it becomes clear why men require pledges and promises, and why men get equally offended when they are not rendered with the due devotion they imagine they deserve...it is obvious there are spiritual matters at stake.
> You are right when you say God knows we are not yet perfect...but will you grant that Jesus has told us to be so?
> Will you grant that by the power in the word of Christ to accomplish all things he speaks...we shall be?
> Your original expression of disgust at those with the reasoning ability of an ant, as you said, who might be finding that Jesus alone has the rights over us, that we have been bought with a price...and we are no longer our own to simply go about promising this or that of ourselves to things of the earth, is deeply nauseating?
> Does it bother you that it's plain to me where those feelings of disgust originate?
> I have no power to grant anyone entrance or deny it, but I do have authority to know what spirit is speaking when men take their stand on earthy things. As do you, if you are a believer.
> 
> Exercise it.



You got it brother. You enjoy all the things warranted to you by the blood of my brothers. Don't pledge allegiance to this country. That's fine. Be glad though, that men such as myself, do not have a say in who we do and do not protect...
Earthy things... Like taking my kid to school, loving my family, living a happy life. Whatever man. You can tell me I'm wrong all you want. It's your "God given right."  I will take my chances. SneakyOne out.


----------



## ddd-shooter

SneakyOne said:


> That's fine. Be glad though, that men such as myself, do not have a say in who we do and do not protect...



I am glad you do not get to pick. Just protect the ones you like. Yes, how very American and Christian of you...


----------



## Israel

All that I have, all that I ever hope to have was secured by my brother's blood. 
My one brother.

By God's grace may you not have to exclude any of your brothers in his final accounting...but you will learn to give the only one worthy of glory his proper due.


As to being glad that men such as yourself do not have a say in who you do and do not protect, I believe I'll preserve my joy in one who gives freely to all. 
Not a bit of grudge in him.


----------



## SneakyOne

Israel said:


> All that I have, all that I ever hope to have was secured by my brother's blood.
> My one brother.
> 
> By God's grace may you not have to exclude any of your brothers in his final accounting...but you will learn to give the only one worthy of glory his proper due.
> 
> 
> As to being glad that men such as yourself do not have a say in who you do and do not protect, I believe I'll preserve my joy in one who gives freely to all.
> Not a bit of grudge in him.


Good Luck.


----------



## Israel

SneakyOne said:


> Good Luck.



Had you made it plain at the outset you were not a believer, but instead a believer in luck, well, then, why would you even care about thinking someone could condemn you?


----------



## squirrelhunter912

SneakyOne said:


> I never would have thought that this many people, on this particular website, would have such an issue pledging allegiance to this country. Its honestly hard to sit and listen to. It disgusts me. So, go ahead and enjoy your right to sit and debate over this apparently, "life altering great-debate of people with the reasoning capacity of an ant."
> You question allegiance to the very country that gives you the right to debate over this in the first place. Well, after you decide that you are incapable of Pledging Allegiance to this great country, move. Leave. Go. I hear Canada is always looking for a few good men.


I completely agree when you say the pledge of allegiance you are pledgin allegiance to the USA and in a way you are pledging allegiance to GOD "one nation under GOD" you are also respecting those who have died to protect this country so you can still say the pledge and debate about sayin it


----------



## SneakyOne

squirrelhunter912 said:


> I completely agree when you say the pledge of allegiance you are pledgin allegiance to the USA and in a way you are pledging allegiance to GOD "one nation under GOD" you are also respecting those who have died to protect this country so you can still say the pledge and debate about sayin it


Tread lightly my friend... I'm gonna be the one jumping on the grenade on this one. Mr. Israel is set on on pushing away anyone who does not see things EXACTLY the way he sees them. Standing by for Bravo Sierra...


----------



## squirrelhunter912

SneakyOne said:


> Tread lightly my friend... I'm gonna be the one jumping on the grenade on this one. Mr. Israel is set on on pushing away anyone who does not see things EXACTLY the way he sees them. Standing by for Bravo Sierra...


I agree some people just don't understand just how much that they have in this country.


----------



## pigpen1

SneakyOne said:


> Tread lightly my friend... I'm gonna be the one jumping on the grenade on this one. Mr. Israel is set on on pushing away anyone who does not see things EXACTLY the way he sees them. Standing by for Bravo Sierra...




 You are exactly right my friend.


----------



## pigpen1

squirrelhunter912 said:


> I agree some people just don't understand just how much that they have in this country.



Amen! That's why I said they are ticks...



pigpen1 said:


> I agree! When I pledge allegiance to the Flag, I pledge it to the values the Flag means to me. The same ones this great Country was founded on. I pledge my allegiance to it under GOD. The Amish do not believe in helping in the military that gives us the freedoms that we have in this land. They may be good people, but if they do not believe in defending this land that so many people have died for, I say they are no better than the tree hugging, left wing hippies that are ticks living off of the blood of so many brave men and women.
> 
> Like it, love it or leave it.



 Ticks do not care about the well being of their host, they are just self centered and self serving parasites.


----------



## Ronnie T

squirrelhunter912 said:


> I agree some people just don't understand just how much that they have in this country.



I sure do.  And I thank God very often for His blessings on all of us.
It is God who is responsible for our national blessings.
It is God who will remove them if that happens.


----------



## pigpen1

Ronnie T said:


> I sure do.  And I thank God very often for His blessings on all of us.
> It is God who is responsible for our national blessings.
> It is God who will remove them if that happens.



 So, is it God who makes our military victorious, like he did the Nation of Israel in the Old Testament?


----------



## squirrelhunter912

Ronnie T said:


> I sure do.  And I thank God very often for His blessings on all of us.
> It is God who is responsible for our national blessings.
> It is God who will remove them if that happens.


Amen


----------



## SneakyOne




----------



## Ronnie T

pigpen1 said:


> So, is it God who makes our military victorious, like he did the Nation of Israel in the Old Testament?




I don't have the remotest idea.
But all blessings (for Christians) come from God.

I have great appreciation for this nation.
Especially for service men and women who are willing to risk their lives for the sake of others.

As a veteran myself, I understand the heavy price they pay.


----------



## pigpen1

Ronnie T said:


> I don't have the remotest idea.
> But all blessings (for Christians) come from God.
> 
> I have great appreciation for this nation.
> Especially for service men and women who are willing to risk their lives for the sake of others.
> 
> As a veteran myself, I understand the heavy price they pay.






Ronnie T said:


> It is God who is responsible for our national blessings.



Our national blessings are a direct result of our military being victorious, so as you said above God is responsible for our national blessings. That must also mean that He is responsible for our military being victorious.


----------



## Israel

pigpen1 said:


> Our national blessings are a direct result of our military being victorious, so as you said above God is responsible for our national blessings. That must also mean that He is responsible for our military being victorious.



Then why did Rome flourish? Was it her gods?

Your reasoning is so carnal as to be a mockery of the cross of Christ. 
For your own sake, and the sake of those who hear you get away from that pulpit. 
You have allowed yourself to be deluded by whatever simple adulation has come your way through those who mistake bluster with spirit, a pulpit with revelation of the truth.


----------



## pigpen1

Israel said:


> Then why did Rome flourish?
> 
> You're reasoning is so carnal as to be a mockery of the cross of Christ.
> For your own sake, and the sake of those who hear you get away from that pulpit.
> You have allowed yourself to be deluded by whatever simple adulation has come your way through those who mistake bluster with spirit, a pulpit with revelation of the truth.


----------



## pigpen1

SneakyOne said:


> Standing by for Bravo Sierra.


----------



## pigpen1

Some Give None!!!!!!


http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo224/****insarah77/hippie-2.jpg


----------



## ddd-shooter

Wow. 


It never ceases to amaze me how Christians attack one another. Not simply their beliefs, but actually attack one another. 

And we wonder why the body is weak!


----------



## tell sackett

ddd-shooter said:


> Wow.
> 
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me how Christians attack one another. Not simply their beliefs, but actually attack one another.
> 
> And we wonder why the body is weak!


Yep, I believe it's time to knock this one in the head.


----------



## Israel

Although I am far worse than described as either tick, or self serving parasite, I cannot be ashamed of the one who has made his body meat to me, his blood drink for me.
Should I end up being found to glory in anyone, anything, but that One, I know I would endure unbearable and eternal shame. But what would be worse, is that he would not be receiving the glory due his name from one for which he paid so much.
Wrapping oneself in a flag, despite all the good you may imagine that has come from that banner, requires you also to answer for all of its evil.
Only God alone is good, and there is no darkness in him.
But if you haven't seen the darkness in even your own best efforts, you will remain confident of doing God's will, despite the fact that it is only your own being exercised. And you will gladly let that will take you wherever it cares to.

The original poster found himself saying this, although I wonder if even then he understood the significance of its spiritual implication. 

"I think they are right, but I would have a hard time refusing to pledge allegiance to the flag. It's a bit disturbing."

Hogtown is at the place where knowing something is deeply conflicting with the ways of the world. 

Jesus doesn't stop at adultery of the flesh. He digs deep into our hearts to show us where divided devotions lay, where affections that run counter to one another fight for supremacy there, and which, once revealed are either dealt with by the cross of Christ and the mercy of God's spirit...or we languish in the desert...or worse, return to Egypt. 
Some, it seems, have already determined that all that is good is not worth that trip there. 
But that will not keep Jesus from making it. He made it in himself, he will make it in us.
There were things of which it was tortuously painful for Jesus to relinquish, things of which the devil would gladly have had him cling to. And things of which no man on earth would ever have the right to condemn him had he done so. 
But save for his obedience in the letting go of much that he might lay hold of that for which he came...the world would never see anything but condemned men. 

It appears that in so many words I have been called a coward. Yes, and so much more than a coward. Or less if you prefer. Vain. Self serving, a parasite, as mentioned. I am all these things and worse.

But that does not change for a moment who Jesus is. And for that even this parasite rejoices.


----------



## jawja_peach

pileit said:


> After being accused by lord isreal of saluting the flag and makig a pledge to the flag. with isreals strong case against pigpen.  pigpen presented a strong defence his case.  can pigpen salute the american flag and still be loyal to God?
> LET YOUR YES BE YOUR YES AND YOUR NO BE YOUR NO
> 
> VOTING MAY NOW START.



Good Morning all~

Pileit.. You asked a question about whether we can salute our Flag & still be loyal to God... 

I say "YES"!!!   

Have a Blessed Day Y'all!!! OH, and Peach is Back!


----------



## jawja_peach

ddd-shooter said:


> Wow.
> 
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me how Christians attack one another. Not simply their beliefs, but actually attack one another.
> 
> And we wonder why the body is weak!



The Body is weak, my Brother, because there are no longer people that will stand for what's right. Same way in our Nation. If there were stronger People/Believers, that didn't change with the wind, we would have a much stronger 'Church' and a much stronger 'Nation'. When you let everything be accepted in Church/Nation you will get very weak and will loose all... So attacks, No, just trying to educate... Sometimes it just comes across hard.  Praying you have a wonderfully blessed Sunday!!


----------



## wildbill1943

I also am thankful for those in this Country who are faithful followers of Christ and also support the Country that gives us the protection to have that right.


----------



## Ronnie T

pigpen1 said:


> Some Give None!!!!!!
> 
> 
> http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo224/****insarah77/hippie-2.jpg




Wow.


----------



## pileit

jawja_peach said:


> The Body is weak, my Brother, because there are no longer people that will stand for what's right. Same way in our Nation. If there were stronger People/Believers, that didn't change with the wind, we would have a much stronger 'Church' and a much stronger 'Nation'. When you let everything be accepted in Church/Nation you will get very weak and will loose all... So attacks, No, just trying to educate... Sometimes it just comes across hard.  Praying you have a wonderfully blessed Sunday!!




I agree


----------



## ambush80

It finally came down to "I know what's right."


----------



## earl

pigpen1 said:


> Proverbs 11:2
> When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.
> 
> Proverbs 15:31;33
> He who listens to a life-giving rebuke will be at home among the wise.The fear of the LORD teaches a man wisdom, and humility comes before honor.
> 
> Proverbs 16:18-19
> Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud.
> 
> Proverbs 18:12
> Before his downfall a man's heart is proud, but humility comes before honor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some Give None!!!!!!
> 
> 
> http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo224/****insarah77/hippie-2.jpg






Proverbs 11:2
When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.

Proverbs 15:31;33
He who listens to a life-giving rebuke will be at home among the wise.The fear of the LORD teaches a man wisdom, and humility comes before honor.

Proverbs 16:18-19
Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud.

Proverbs 18:12
Before his downfall a man's heart is proud, but humility comes before honor.


----------



## pigpen1

earl said:


> Proverbs 11:2
> When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.
> 
> Proverbs 15:31;33
> He who listens to a life-giving rebuke will be at home among the wise.The fear of the LORD teaches a man wisdom, and humility comes before honor.
> 
> Proverbs 16:18-19
> Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud.
> 
> Proverbs 18:12
> Before his downfall a man's heart is proud, but humility comes before honor.



 Earl, have you been converted??? 


I mean anything is possible, you have almost learned how to use the quote feature on here...


----------



## earl

This is a no win thread. Both sides of Nam will be with us forever. Looks like it is still tearing US apart. 

My computer skills . Oxymoron. LOL


----------



## gordon 2

When you think of what St. Paul was, who he was and what was his first and  last strenght it is very interesting in my view.

He was a Roman. He was Jew. He was a christian. He was probably of some ethnic group. Anyone in these groups could find cause to nail him to a cross upside down!

To the Roman is was seditious. To the Jews a heritic. To some christians he was a murderer and a worse.

But today do we believe Paul won his race? He won because he was a Roman, a Jew, a christian and worse who was to Jesus a deciple first and foremost. The precepts of Jews,  of the Romans,  of the christians in Paul's day are all mostly dead. Jesus on the other hand with  the message which he gave in his sermon on the mount and the examples he gave throughout his ministry these  are still as lively and fresh today as the day it was said and executed.

Paul banked on Jesus first and the rest just lined up. He was a man for all seasons so he could minister to all. But in the end Paul's home was in the Lord's kingdom where the burden is light, and that light is Jesus, and the view is awesome.


----------



## jawja_peach

*Our God, Our Nation, & Our Flag...*

You know, I have set here and read all these responses.. Yep, sure have.. took me a while too. I honestly can't believe some of the things that have been said. One thing I don't get is how anyone can say that by serving our Country we are putting it before God. Or to say that by pledging my allegiance to the Flag of our Country that I'm putting that above God. I thought our Nation was founded because of religion. And there for was established as One Nation under God. God has truly Blessed this nation in many ways, and to say that by pledging or serving in the military is putting our country before God is absurd. I mean really didn't God bless the early settlers with 'Turtle Island', now known as our Great Country. I mean, even my son came home the other day from school and told me all about Thanksgiving and how the Pilgrims came over here so they could have religious freedom, to be Protestant not Catholic. Didn't our for-fathers write the Bill of Rights/Our Constitution based on their religious beliefs?? Did they not include God in the way they governed? They did. Do we now..No, not so much. Is our country in good shape? Not by a long shot. Is our Country worth fighting for, dieing for?? Yes!  In my opinion Yes!! Now some will say that they could not offer up their lives for that as we will be taking away from God. Where is your Faith my friends?? Those of you who think this? Do you not realize that if you are a child of God you are protected? We all will die, at one point or another. No matter where you are. If you are sitting in your living room chair, riding a 235mph. motorcycle, or in a fox hole in the middle of a war...you will go when God says it's time. When that last piece of the puzzle of life is put into place, it's done. I sure would rather be fighting for my country, defending those who can not defend themselves , giving my children and their children a place to live and be free, than sitting in my living room watching a movie when my times comes. 

Now some may say, "well, what part of the service did you join??" and use that in a sarcastic way... I, myself, like Pigpen would have went. I TRIED TO GO!! I was minutes away from signing on the line... The Marine recruiter called to have me meet him at Burger King to finalize everything, but first had a few questions. He went down the list, and then asked, "Do you have any allergies?" I said, "well, no, just Bee stings. I have to carry a shot with me for that." He said, " well, I'm sorry Miss Trett, since you have this allergy you are not qualified to join the military. Thank you." AND HE HUNG UP ON ME!! So, there you have that..take it or leave it, it's 100% true. So, my words are not empty words. 

To me pledging to the Flag is not acting out against God, or putting our Nation above Him, but is more like a Thank You for what He has given us..and has blessed us with. If you don't think we are blessed, you should go to England, or some other country a stay a month or so. You will see quickly how blessed we truly are!!


----------



## Ronnie T

I totally agree with you jawja peach.

I have pledged to the flag thousands of times.  I've stood in formation and saluted the Colors as they pass by.  Just recently, by an act of Congress, I now have been authorized to salute the flag again even though I'm no longer in the Army.  I still shed a tear when I hear our National Anthem.
I love the armed forces of this country.  It's filled with smart, dedicated people who really know what unity is.  The church could learn a lot from the military.  They are 'all for one and one for all'.  

They have this thing called espirit de corps.  The church needs that.

I trust our military.......... I don't trust politicians.

But, BUT, our country is not great because of our military.
Our country is great because of our Godly heritage.  We are a country that came into being because of people's desire to worship God correctly and properly.  A country who trusted and depended upon God as they forged our Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc.

We are not a great country because of our form of government.  It isn't democracy that makes us great.
One of the things we strive to carry into the world is democracy.  We're working for it in Iraq and Afghanistan now.  
We've worked for it in the Soviet Union.
People said:  "If we can turn the rest of the world into a democracy like we have, the world can be just like us.

But it isn't so.
What makes this country great is our devotion to Godly principals.  We are a country that trusts and loves God.  God was built into our government.(originally).
That's what the rest of the world needs.
Did democracy change the Soviet Union........ No.
Vietnam............ No.
Iraq............ No.

What they don't have that we have is God and His Son Jesus Christ.

My military service means little to me when compared to knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
And my military service means a lot to me.

But nothing can ever stand between my serving my heavenly Father.

I hope everyone feels the same way.


----------



## jawja_peach

*what?????*



Israel said:


> First, what's wrong with speaking German?
> 
> Well, just like I tell those from other countries, speak English or go back where you came from!! Maybe, since you wouldn't mind speaking German,you should go live there for a spell! Then you might be glad to come home, & speak English... And be proud that someone made sure you can!!


----------



## jawja_peach

*that's the ticket !*




Ronnie T said:


> I totally agree with you jawja peach.
> 
> I have pledged to the flag thousands of times.  I've stood in formation and saluted the Colors as they pass by.  Just recently, by an act of Congress, I now have been authorized to salute the flag again even though I'm no longer in the Army.  I still shed a tear when I hear our National Anthem.
> I love the armed forces of this country.  It's filled with smart, dedicated people who really know what unity is.  The church could learn a lot from the military.  They are 'all for one and one for all'.
> 
> They have this thing called espirit de corps.  The church needs that.
> 
> I trust our military.......... I don't trust politicians.
> 
> But, BUT, our country is not great because of our military.
> Our country is great because of our Godly heritage.  We are a country that came into being because of people's desire to worship God correctly and properly.  A country who trusted and depended upon God as they forged our Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc.
> 
> We are not a great country because of our form of government.  It isn't democracy that makes us great.
> One of the things we strive to carry into the world is democracy.  We're working for it in Iraq and Afghanistan now.
> We've worked for it in the Soviet Union.
> People said:  "If we can turn the rest of the world into a democracy like we have, the world can be just like us.
> 
> But it isn't so.
> What makes this country great is our devotion to Godly principals.  We are a country that trusts and loves God.  God was built into our government.(originally).
> That's what the rest of the world needs.
> Did democracy change the Soviet Union........ No.
> Vietnam............ No.
> Iraq............ No.
> 
> What they don't have that we have is God and His Son Jesus Christ.
> 
> My military service means little to me when compared to knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
> And my military service means a lot to me.
> 
> But nothing can ever stand between my serving my heavenly Father.
> 
> I hope everyone feels the same way.




Yep, I agree with you Ronnie... Our Country is great due to the presents of God. Our military is stronger because of those who fight for our Country (other Countries) in the name of the Lord and Democracy. As you said Democracy won't change the hostile countries we are trying to help, but if each troop takes what love for Christ they have in their heart over there, and spread His word that will bring God to their country then maybe their version of Democracy. Will this ever happen?? Probably not due to their religious beliefs... But I totally agree with you on this one!! Thanks for saying what I didn't, but was in my heart!!  You said nothing would stand between you and your serving our Heavenly Father... I don't believe that being in the military helping others, even in war, is going to come between you and God.. Or any other Christian. People don't understand that you can still serve God and still fight for Democracy, whether it be ours or another country we are trying to help!! But to say because we are Christians we can't go to war and fight for what is best for these other countries is absurd!! I mean really!! 

Thanks again for your writings and for your support!!
​


----------



## Israel

I, too appreciate all the responses. I believe it has helped me see things more clearly.

It would probably be a good idea for those who believe they know something of the formation of this nation to read the declaration of independence.

Conspicuously absent from any of the lists of grievances is any reference to religious intolerance. But to read this thread there are obviously many who believe it was precisely so "we could be christian" we had to rebel against the king. 

And in that rebellion, never called for in scripture, (for those who imagine they have been called to preach with that as their foundation) are there any here now that doubt minutemen cut down redcoats, and redcoats minutemen, both calling upon the Lord Jesus with their dying breaths?



As Jesus said:
Was aus dem Fleisch geboren ist, ist Fleisch, das, was aus dem Geist geboren ist Geist. Es ist der Geist, dass das Leben, das Fleisch nützt nichts gibt.

Or, if you find that offensive...you could use English.
But if you speak english, as was noted, maybe you need to "go back where you came from".

I would to God some would really take their signatures to heart.


----------



## pigpen1




----------



## jawja_peach

*This Centuries Ghandi*



Israel said:


> I, too appreciate all the responses. I believe it has helped me see things more clearly.
> 
> It would probably be a good idea for those who believe they know something of the formation of this nation to read the declaration of independence.
> 
> Conspicuously absent from any of the lists of grievances is any reference to religious intolerance. But to read this thread there are obviously many who believe it was precisely so "we could be christian" we had to rebel against the king.
> 
> And in that rebellion, never called for in scripture, (for those who imagine they have been called to preach with that as their foundation) are there any here now that doubt minutemen cut down redcoats, and redcoats minutemen, both calling upon the Lord Jesus with their dying breaths?
> 
> 
> 
> As Jesus said:
> Was aus dem Fleisch geboren ist, ist Fleisch, das, was aus dem Geist geboren ist Geist. Es ist der Geist, dass das Leben, das Fleisch nützt nichts gibt.
> 
> Or, if you find that offensive...you could use English.
> But if you speak english, as was noted, maybe you need to "go back where you came from".
> 
> I would to God some would really take their signatures to heart.




  

Before you point fingers always remember there are three pointing back, Sir. And too, have you any friends from "England"? Have you ever been there? If so GREAT!!!  I do and have been... and Sir, the language we speak is not the English in which the British speak. It amazes me how someone can twist and turn things around and try to use it against others. It's almost down right entertaining...... I'm just sitting here waiting to see if you are cleaver enough to twist your own words around and convince yourself into believing God is pleased with you making the remarks against His Called Men of God. That's one place I'm sure glad your in and not me!! And have enough gall to tell them to get out of the pulpit because you disagree with their teachings... Whew, your treading on some shaky ground right there... Now you'll probably fire back at me and say that I'm putting them, the Called Men of God, above others... which I'm not.. (better get this in before you twist it around on me...) What I'm saying/meaning is that you are calling them Liars and in doing so you are calling God a Liar... 
So now since I don't know what I'm talking about... as you've implied, and since you seem to know more than God, I mean you're the one judging and telling preacher/pastor's to get out of the pulpit and that they are NOT CALLED of God... I'm going to sit here and watch and see if you can explain the meaning to life... forget about this thread... start a new one to where we can be in awe of your teachings... Israel... this centuries Ghandi... op2: 

Oh, and by the way, just so you know, I am right at 1/2 Cherokee and Lakota mix, my Native Name is Lil' Turtle...  
Do I know the language, I mean since I am from Turtle Island and all?? I'm learning..




o-gi-do-da ga-lv-la-di he-hi

ga-lv-quo-di-yu ge-se-s-di de-tsa-do-v-i

tsa-gv-wi-yu-hi ge-sv wi-ga-na-nu-go-i

a-ni e-lo-hi wi-ni-ga-li-s-da ha-da-nv-te-s-gv-i

na-s-gi-ya ga-lv-la-di tsi-ni-ga-li-s-di-ha

ni-da-do-da-qui-sv o-ga-li-s-da-yv-di s-gi-v-si go-hi i-ga

di-ge-s-gi-v-si-quo-no de-s-gi-du-gv-i na-s-gi-ya tsi-di-ga-yo-tsi-ne-ho tso-tsi-du-gi

a-le tle-s-di u-da-go-li-ye-di-yi ge-sv wi-di-s-gi-ya-ti-nv-s-ta-nv-gi

s-gi-yu-da-le-s-ge-s-di-quo-s-gi-ni u-yo ge-sv-i

tsa-tse-li-ga-ye-no tsa-gv-wi-yu-hi ge-sv-i

a-le tsa-li-ni-gi-di-yi ge-sv-i

a-le e-tsa-lv-quo-di-yu ge-sv ni-go-hi-lv-i

e-me-nv


----------



## Hogtown

pigpen1 said:


> I would have been glad to fight, but missing fingers on my right hand from an accident at the age of 12 kept the military from accepting me. Their choice, not mine. If they would have wanted me I would have went.



I haven't abandoned the disscussion - I've just been at my lease.  Anyway, back to the topic:  Pigpen, I believe your comment also applies to the Amish/Menonites - their education ends at the 8th grade. I don't think they qualify to serve in the military. USA's choice, not theirs.


----------



## BeenHuntn

Hogtown said:


> I haven't abandoned the disscussion - I've just been at my lease.  Anyway, back to the topic:  Pigpen, I believe your comment also applies to the Amish/Menonites - their education ends at the 8th grade. I don't think they qualify to serve in the military. USA's choice, not theirs.



ht,
did you get a chance to listen to those 2 teachings on the pledge??


----------



## Hogtown

BeenHuntn said:


> ht,
> did you get a chance to listen to those 2 teachings on the pledge??



Been, 

I had my computer geek load them on my iphone on Thursday; however, since I've been hunting I haven't listened to them. I will listen to them both this week.


----------



## rjcruiser

jawja_peach said:


> I don't believe that being in the military helping others, even in war, is going to come between you and God.. Or any other Christian. People don't understand that you can still serve God and still fight for Democracy, whether it be ours or another country we are trying to help!! But to say because we are Christians we can't go to war and fight for what is best for these other countries is absurd!! I mean really!!



So to you it is absurd, but to others, it is their belief.  How do you know that you are right and they are wrong?



			
				Hogtown said:
			
		

> Pigpen, I believe your comment also applies to the Amish/Menonites - their education ends at the 8th grade. I don't think they qualify to serve in the military. USA's choice, not theirs.



Really? 8th grade educational requirements?  Didn't know that.  I will say, I know plenty of Amish/Mennonites that have gone on to higher education.


----------



## Hogtown

rjcruiser said:


> Really? 8th grade educational requirements?  Didn't know that.  I will say, I know plenty of Amish/Mennonites that have gone on to higher education.



I should have said Amish and conservative/old order Mennonites (like the Beachy Amish Mennonites in Macon Co).  Anyway below is some data:

Why are Amish schools different?
School for Old Order Amish and Mennonites is only a part of the learning necessary for preparation for the adult world. Children have formal schooling in one-room schools to 8th grade and then have a structured learning program supervised by their parents. Classes in the one-room Amish schools are conducted in English, and the children learn English when they go to school. The teachers are Amish and they have no more than an eighth grade education themselves. When the landmark United States Supreme Court decision of 1972 gave exemption for Amish and related groups from state compulsory attendance laws beyond the eighth grade, Chief Justice Burger wrote: “It is neither fair nor correct to suggest that the Amish are opposed to education beyond the eighth grade level. What this record shows is that they are opposed to conventional formal education of the type provided by a certified high school because it comes at the child's crucial adolescent period of religious development.” 

Mennonites, on the other hand, have dozens of parochial elementary schools, more than 20 high schools, eleven colleges, and three seminaries sponsored by Mennonite groups in North America. Mennonite families choose whether to send their children to public or church-sponsored schools. Higher education became a vocational necessity as Mennonites left the farm. Missions and service opportunities also gave rise to the need for higher education.


----------



## rjcruiser

Hogtown said:


> I should have said Amish and conservative/old order Mennonites (like the Beachy Amish Mennonites in Macon Co).  Anyway below is some data:
> 
> Why are Amish schools different?
> School for Old Order Amish and Mennonites is only a part of the learning necessary for preparation for the adult world. Children have formal schooling in one-room schools to 8th grade and then have a structured learning program supervised by their parents. Classes in the one-room Amish schools are conducted in English, and the children learn English when they go to school. The teachers are Amish and they have no more than an eighth grade education themselves. When the landmark United States Supreme Court decision of 1972 gave exemption for Amish and related groups from state compulsory attendance laws beyond the eighth grade, Chief Justice Burger wrote: “It is neither fair nor correct to suggest that the Amish are opposed to education beyond the eighth grade level. What this record shows is that they are opposed to conventional formal education of the type provided by a certified high school because it comes at the child's crucial adolescent period of religious development.”
> 
> Mennonites, on the other hand, have dozens of parochial elementary schools, more than 20 high schools, eleven colleges, and three seminaries sponsored by Mennonite groups in North America. Mennonite families choose whether to send their children to public or church-sponsored schools. Higher education became a vocational necessity as Mennonites left the farm. Missions and service opportunities also gave rise to the need for higher education.



gotcha...so ?? for you.

Are you implying that because they have no formal education past the 8th grade, they are inferior citizens?


----------



## Hogtown

rjcruiser said:


> gotcha...so ?? for you.
> 
> Are you implying that because they have no formal education past the 8th grade, they are inferior citizens?



No,no, no..  I think they are some of the finest people I've ever met.  I was replying to Pigpen.  He thinks the Amish/Mennonites are the no different than "draft dodging hippies".  He also note that he wasn't in the military because he had lost some fingers and thus it was the military than chose not to accept him.  I was pointing out that his situation is the same as the Amish in that they have only an 8th grade education and thus they couldn't serve even if they wanted to.  I know I haven't explained this well, so you'll probably need to go back and review Pigpens position to understand fully.


----------



## rjcruiser

Hogtown said:


> I know I haven't explained this well, so you'll probably need to go back and review Pigpens position to understand fully.



Nope...very adequate indeed.  Just curious...as it is dificult to sometimes understand one's intent on the internet


----------



## BeenHuntn

Hogtown said:


> Been,
> 
> I had my computer geek load them on my iphone on Thursday; however, since I've been hunting I haven't listened to them. I will listen to them both this week.



hey, you're not been huntn... i'm beenhuntn...  

well after you listen to them you will have all your questions answered regarding the pledge... the Word of God does not lie...
Peace.


----------



## rjcruiser

BeenHuntn said:


> well after you listen to them you will have all your questions answered regarding the pledge... the Word of God does not lie...
> Peace.



Yes...the Word of God does not lie, but per Paul, many twist its words to further their own agenda.


Note:  I've not listened to the message, so this is in no way bashing the person in the link.


----------



## BeenHuntn

rjcruiser said:


> Yes...the Word of God does not lie, but per Paul, many twist its words to further their own agenda.
> 
> 
> Note:  I've not listened to the message, so this is in no way bashing the person in the link.



you should listen to them also... its amazing what is included in the Word of God... this pastor teaches the Word like few others... and he doesnt twist for his agenda...


----------



## jawja_peach

*Over look any errors, Im in some Major Pain!!*



rjcruiser said:


> So to you it is absurd, but to others, it is their belief.  How do you know that you are right and they are wrong?
> 
> 
> Well RJ, I don't know.. Yes, it's absurd, to me. I guess since I have a Nephew that is a Marine, who spent 9 months over in Iraq, was almost killed by a terrorist-who luckily blew himself up before the convoy got there- and who made Sarge. before his first 4yrs were up...yeah it's kinda personal I guess you'd say. I mean anyone that has a relative in the service that puts their life on the line for our great Nation, and so many have died protecting freedom, to hear these things is almost a slap in the face. Especially since a lot of these families are Christian families. Some are 5th. generation servicemen, and it honestly hurts when someone says that because we love our Nation, and want to keep it free that we're putting it before God. They say if the flag is protected and saluted you're putting this above God. We don't see it that way. We see it as protection. Our Military is protecting our great country in which God blessed us with. I mean we thank him
> when we sit down at night to eat supper right? We thank Him for the food, the hands that prepared it, and ask Him to bless our food that it be nourishment to our bodies and then our bodies to His service.. So, by doing this is this putting our food above Him?? I mean we pray God will Bless it and all...?? So what's the difference? To me both are given by God to keep up healthy and strong and safe..  So, can I 'Prove' I'm right in my belief and those others are wrong. NO..I can't. But will I stop doing what I do? Nope! Will I ever understand those that for some reason feel that by pledging to our Nation's flag I'm putting it above God.. No. I won't.


----------



## pileit

Hogtown said:


> No,no, no..  I think they are some of the finest people I've ever met.  I was replying to Pigpen.  He thinks the Amish/Mennonites are the no different than "draft dodging hippies".  He also note that he wasn't in the military because he had lost some fingers and thus it was the military than chose not to accept him.  I was pointing out that his situation is the same as the Amish in that they have only an 8th grade education and thus they couldn't serve even if they wanted to.  I know I haven't explained this well, so you'll probably need to go back and review Pigpens position to understand fully.





Same situation huh?  Dropping out of school in the eight grade and getting two fingers cut off.  Glad you could point that out.


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> this pastor teaches the Word like few others... and he doesnt twist for his agenda...




what's his name?


----------



## Hogtown

pileit said:


> Same situation huh?  Dropping out of school in the eight grade and getting two fingers cut off.  Glad you could point that out.



The similarity is that the person lacking a couple of fingers and the person lacking the education is not suitable for military service.  Per the military, neither one of these groups meets their requirements.

Also, they don't "drop out of school" - they completed all the school that was offered/allowed.


----------



## rjcruiser

jawja_peach said:


> Well RJ, I don't know.. Yes, it's absurd, to me. I guess since I have a Nephew that is a Marine, who spent 9 months over in Iraq, was almost killed by a terrorist-who luckily blew himself up before the convoy got there- and who made Sarge. before his first 4yrs were up...yeah it's kinda personal I guess you'd say. I mean anyone that has a relative in the service that puts their life on the line for our great Nation, and so many have died protecting freedom, to hear these things is almost a slap in the face. Especially since a lot of these families are Christian families. Some are 5th. generation servicemen, and it honestly hurts when someone says that because we love our Nation, and want to keep it free that we're putting it before God. They say if the flag is protected and saluted you're putting this above God. We don't see it that way. We see it as protection. Our Military is protecting our great country in which God blessed us with. I mean we thank him
> when we sit down at night to eat supper right? We thank Him for the food, the hands that prepared it, and ask Him to bless our food that it be nourishment to our bodies and then our bodies to His service.. So, by doing this is this putting our food above Him?? I mean we pray God will Bless it and all...?? So what's the difference? To me both are given by God to keep up healthy and strong and safe..  So, can I 'Prove' I'm right in my belief and those others are wrong. NO..I can't. But will I stop doing what I do? Nope! Will I ever understand those that for some reason feel that by pledging to our Nation's flag I'm putting it above God.. No. I won't.



Thanks for the honest answer.  Interesting to me how you're much more rational to debate with than your husband  At least you admit to your opinions based on feelings and emotion rather than on scripture.

I will say, I've got friends/family on both sides of the fence with this one.  I just don't see how someone who will not carry a gun for the country is not being supportive of it.  There are other ways that the Amish/Mennonites support our great country.  For one, they pay their taxes.  Two, they don't leach off of the government abusing programs like welfare.  Three, they make all of our American made furniture.  Just don't see how one can put Amish/Mennonites who are concientious objectors into the same bucket as hippies or draft dodgers like Clinton.




pileit said:


> Same situation huh?  Dropping out of school in the eight grade and getting two fingers cut off.  Glad you could point that out.







Hogtown said:


> The similarity is that the person lacking a couple of fingers and the person lacking the education is not suitable for military service.  Per the military, neither one of these groups meets their requirements.
> 
> Also, they don't "drop out of school" - they completed all the school that was offered/allowed.



Hogtown...looks like you got into the wrong debate or at least with the wrong people.  You can't debate with people who are illogical or can't reason.  I'm afraid you're dealing with one of those people above.


----------



## Inthegarge

Funny but soon after Vietnam individuals were allowed to join (Volar) All Volunteer Army with disabilities. I had a fellow who worked for me who had one hand deformed from birth. As long as he could pass all the requirements he could serve...Also at the end of Nam individuals without HS could enlist as long as they passed a GED within a certain time frame. I am a Disabled Vietnam Veteran who knows without God I would have never made it here. I proudly saluate without question our Flag and the God who keeps it free. By the Way, did you know there are no non-belivers in foxholes ?? I saw many conversions in the war.......JMHCO RW


----------



## gtparts

I see within the Pledge some conditions, i.e. "....to the Republic, for which it (the flag) stands,....". 

If the flag no longer stands (for the Republic), all pledges of allegiance to the flag are off. 

If the Republic no longer stands, all pledges of allegiance to the flag and Republic are off.

You see, for me the words have meaning because the nation is symbolized by the flag. It is the nation that I either deem worthy of my pledge or not. Lately, it has not shown itself to be the same nation that I saluted as a school child. While I may not be pleased with the direction the nation is going, I have the option of renewing that pledge daily. It is not mandatory, nor are any specifics imposed on me by my voluntary pledge. There are laws that apply to me as a citizen, entirely independent of any pledge. 

The question might be asked, Who holds you to your pledge? I believe it is your conscience. If, as a nation, our country has lived up to its basic tenets, we then are obligated to live up to our commitments. The Bible instructs believers not to swear an oath, but that our "yes" be YES and our "no" be NO. Every day I place my hand over my heart and pledge, my "yes" is YES. The day in which I cannot in clear conscience do so, my "no" will be NO. 

My commitment to God supercedes all other commitments.

As for the U.S., I am being sorely tested by many of the positions currently held by the federal government. Many are ungodly and I denounce them completely. Others are a betrayal of the founders wise intent and our soldiers sacrifice to defend this nation. I am not confident that the U.S. will always have my support. The status is bordering on grim, of late.


----------



## Ronnie T

Inthegarge said:


> Funny but soon after Vietnam individuals were allowed to join (Volar) All Volunteer Army with disabilities. I had a fellow who worked for me who had one hand deformed from birth. As long as he could pass all the requirements he could serve...Also at the end of Nam individuals without HS could enlist as long as they passed a GED within a certain time frame. I am a Disabled Vietnam Veteran who knows without God I would have never made it here. I proudly saluate without question our Flag and the God who keeps it free. By the Way, did you know there are no non-belivers in foxholes ?? I saw many conversions in the war.......JMHCO RW




I don't know about the other veteran's opinions, but I don't believe everyone is cut out for Military duty.  Not everyone is cut out for combat.
It takes more than national pride.
Some people need to stay home for the sake of those who go.
There are lots of questions that a person needs to ask and answer before committing themselves to possibly having to fight a war in a Vietnam that will have no significant impact on America, win or lose.

I think most service men/women willingly take those risk for the folks that can't or won't.
It wasn't a big deal with me.

Also, I think I said this earlier, I didn't join the Army in 1967so that I could fight for the religious freedom of Christians in America.  God is in charge of religious freedom.  Nothing can stop any of us from worshiping God.  Nothing in this world can destroy the church of Christ.  I would never take the life of a total stranger just so other people can worship in absolute, total comfort.


----------



## Inthegarge

Got you Ronnie....unfortunately there are many Christians like that today. If it gets hard or you think they are asking you to do too much you quit. Yes, many need to quit BUT many more need to man up and stand for Christ in the face of all adversity. Again JMHCO (Just my humble Christian opinion)  RW


----------



## The Original Rooster

Ronnie T said:


> I totally agree with you jawja peach.
> 
> I have pledged to the flag thousands of times.  I've stood in formation and saluted the Colors as they pass by.  Just recently, by an act of Congress, I now have been authorized to salute the flag again even though I'm no longer in the Army.  I still shed a tear when I hear our National Anthem.
> I love the armed forces of this country.  It's filled with smart, dedicated people who really know what unity is.  The church could learn a lot from the military.  They are 'all for one and one for all'.
> 
> They have this thing called espirit de corps.  The church needs that.
> 
> I trust our military.......... I don't trust politicians.
> 
> But, BUT, our country is not great because of our military.
> Our country is great because of our Godly heritage.  We are a country that came into being because of people's desire to worship God correctly and properly.  A country who trusted and depended upon God as they forged our Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc.
> 
> We are not a great country because of our form of government.  It isn't democracy that makes us great.
> One of the things we strive to carry into the world is democracy.  We're working for it in Iraq and Afghanistan now.
> We've worked for it in the Soviet Union.
> People said:  "If we can turn the rest of the world into a democracy like we have, the world can be just like us.
> 
> But it isn't so.
> What makes this country great is our devotion to Godly principals.  We are a country that trusts and loves God.  God was built into our government.(originally).
> That's what the rest of the world needs.
> Did democracy change the Soviet Union........ No.
> Vietnam............ No.
> Iraq............ No.
> 
> What they don't have that we have is God and His Son Jesus Christ.
> 
> My military service means little to me when compared to knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
> And my military service means a lot to me.
> 
> But nothing can ever stand between my serving my heavenly Father.
> 
> I hope everyone feels the same way.



A big Amen to that Ronnie!


----------



## pileit

rjcruiser said:


> Really? 8th grade educational requirements?  Didn't know that.  I will say, I know plenty of Amish/Mennonites that have gone on to higher education.



Ever know anyone to go grow fingers back that had been cut off?


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> what's his name?



Pastor John Weaver

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.a...alse&SpeakerOnly=true&keywordwithin=&x=9&y=13


----------



## pigpen1

Hogtown said:


> I haven't abandoned the disscussion - I've just been at my lease.  Anyway, back to the topic:  Pigpen, I believe your comment also applies to the Amish/Menonites - their education ends at the 8th grade. I don't think they qualify to serve in the military. USA's choice, not theirs.



Hogtown, just because the military has education requirements now, does not excuse the Amish and Mennonites running from draft orders in wars past. Our Military has not always required a diploma. My father quit school at 16 yrs old and joined the Army when he was 21 in 1960. 

The fact is if they had a 12th grade education they would not go to war and if we had a draft situation, they would be draft dodgers.


----------



## pigpen1

Hogtown, just in case you missed it. I posted this on the first page of this thread. This is  part of Mennonites Confession of faith adopted in 1995.

Confession of Faith in a Mennonite Perspective
Article 22: "Peace, Justice and Nonresistance" (adopted in 1995)
Excerpts:
We believe that peace is the will of God. God created the world in peace, and God's peace is most fully revealed in Jesus Christ, who is our peace and the peace of the whole world. Led by the Holy Spirit, we follow Christ in the way of peace, doing justice, bringing reconciliation, and practicing nonresistance even in the face of violence and warfare. 
As disciples of Christ, we do not prepare for war, or participate in war or military service. The same Spirit that empowered Jesus also empowers us to love enemies, to forgive rather than to seek revenge, to practice right relationships, to rely on the community of faith to settle disputes, and to resist evil without violence. 
Led by the Spirit, and beginning in the church, we witness to all people that violence is not the will of God. We witness against all forms of violence, including war among nations, hostility among races and classes, abuse of children and women, violence between men and women, abortion, and capital punishment.
Find the full document at http://www.mennolink.org/doc/cof/art.22.html


----------



## Ronnie T

Inthegarge said:


> Got you Ronnie....unfortunately there are many Christians like that today. If it gets hard or you think they are asking you to do too much you quit. Yes, many need to quit BUT many more need to man up and stand for Christ in the face of all adversity. Again JMHCO (Just my humble Christian opinion)  RW



Brother you got that right.


----------



## Ronnie T

pigpen1 said:


> Hogtown, just in case you missed it. I posted this on the first page of this thread. This is  part of Mennonites Confession of faith adopted in 1995.
> 
> Confession of Faith in a Mennonite Perspective
> Article 22: "Peace, Justice and Nonresistance" (adopted in 1995)
> Excerpts:
> We believe that peace is the will of God. God created the world in peace, and God's peace is most fully revealed in Jesus Christ, who is our peace and the peace of the whole world. Led by the Holy Spirit, we follow Christ in the way of peace, doing justice, bringing reconciliation, and practicing nonresistance even in the face of violence and warfare.
> As disciples of Christ, we do not prepare for war, or participate in war or military service. The same Spirit that empowered Jesus also empowers us to love enemies, to forgive rather than to seek revenge, to practice right relationships, to rely on the community of faith to settle disputes, and to resist evil without violence.
> Led by the Spirit, and beginning in the church, we witness to all people that violence is not the will of God. We witness against all forms of violence, including war among nations, hostility among races and classes, abuse of children and women, violence between men and women, abortion, and capital punishment.
> Find the full document at http://www.mennolink.org/doc/cof/art.22.html




The above sounds a lot like Jesus Himself could have written it in the 1st Century.

It's something Paul would have written after he was confronted by Jesus out there in the country.

It could have been something written to the church in Jerusalem during their great persecution.


----------



## earl

How about paying some one to take your place in the war ? Where does that fall in the Patriotic scale 
'


----------



## pigpen1

Ronnie T said:


> I sure do.  And I thank God very often for His blessings on all of us.
> It is God who is responsible for our national blessings.
> It is God who will remove them if that happens.



You said God is Responsible for our National Blessings, could you explain what they are?



pigpen1 said:


> So, is it God who makes our military victorious, like he did the Nation of Israel in the Old Testament?






Ronnie T said:


> I don't have the remotest idea.
> But all blessings (for Christians) come from God.



I would like you to explain what you meant above. Does God not give blessings to people who are not Christians?


----------



## pigpen1

earl said:


> How about paying some one to take your place in the war ? Where does that fall in the Patriotic scale
> '



 It will rank evenly as if you went yourself, if you can find someone to take your place that is twice as patriotic as they should be....


----------



## earl

The reason I asked was that it used too be popular way to get out of going. So what you are saying is if I have the money to avoid going I won;t be an objector or dodger. It would appear that patriotism can be bought. Interesting.


----------



## pigpen1

earl said:


> The reason I asked was that it used too be popular way to get out of going. So what you are saying is if I have the money to avoid going I won;t be an objector or dodger. It would appear that patriotism can be bought. Interesting.



 Nope, I didn't say that. I was joking as to where it would rank Patriotically. I didn't figure you would get it. Notice I said they had to be twice as patriotic for it to rank evenly. Duh!

 It would not be OK to reject going in a time of need, whether rich or poor. Rich kids should have to go, just like poor.


----------



## Ronnie T

pigpen1 said:


> You said God is Responisble for our National Blessings, could you explain what they are?
> 
> 
> I would like you to explain what you meant above. Does God not give blessings to people who are not Christians?



1Tim 2:1-3  First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 


Romans 131-5
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities.  For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 
Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 
For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. 

Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 
Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. 

*We could just a well be living in Iraq, or Saudi Arabia.  
It just appears to me that God has blessed this country.  With all the national mistakes that have been made, we're still here.
How can I explain that without including God in the explanation?
What about those Christians living in places like Iraq.
God is obviously dealing with them and their lives in a different way.  Why?  I couldn't begin to know.  But God's word makes it clear that He'll give those believers the strength and peace to live their lives fruitfully for Him.

In my personal life, have I achieved what I have because I'm a smart person?  A go-getter?  Because I'm tough and responsible and don't need anyone else?
Why no?  God has blessed me in my personal life and in this country.


----------



## SneakyOne

Ronnie T said:


> I don't know about the other veteran's opinions, but I don't believe everyone is cut out for Military duty.  Not everyone is cut out for combat.
> It takes more than national pride.
> Some people need to stay home for the sake of those who go.
> There are lots of questions that a person needs to ask and answer before committing themselves to possibly having to fight a war in a Vietnam that will have no significant impact on America, win or lose.
> 
> I think most service men/women willingly take those risk for the folks that can't or won't.
> It wasn't a big deal with me.
> 
> Also, I think I said this earlier, I didn't join the Army in 1967so that I could fight for the religious freedom of Christians in America.  God is in charge of religious freedom.  Nothing can stop any of us from worshiping God.  Nothing in this world can destroy the church of Christ.  I would never take the life of a total stranger just so other people can worship in absolute, total comfort.



X2!


----------



## earl

pigpen1 said:


> Nope, I didn't say that. I was joking as to where it would rank Patriotically. I didn't figure you would get it. Notice I said they had to be twice as patriotic for it to rank evenly. Duh!
> 
> It would not be OK to reject going in a time of need, whether rich or poor. Rich kids should have to go, just like poor.





Historically that is incorrect. You may want to review the economic status of the draftees just in the VietNam police action. You will find the rich ones got college deferments ,etc. while the poor got an Asian vacation. 
I watched several shows today ,Dec. 7, and one was giving stats on WWII. in 1936 95 % of the people did not want to go to war . Draft dodgers were quite common even then. And who can forget Sgt. York's treatment by the military. Imagine that kind of treatment and counseling today.


----------



## pigpen1

Ronnie T said:


> 1Tim 2:1-3  First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
> 
> 
> Romans 131-5
> Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities.  For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
> Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
> For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil.
> 
> Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
> Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.
> 
> *We could just a well be living in Iraq, or Saudi Arabia.
> It just appears to me that God has blessed this country.  With all the national mistakes that have been made, we're still here.
> How can I explain that without including God in the explanation?
> What about those Christians living in places like Iraq.
> God is obviously dealing with them and their lives in a different way.  Why?  I couldn't begin to know.  But God's word makes it clear that He'll give those believers the strength and peace to live their lives fruitfully for Him.
> 
> In my personal life, have I achieved what I have because I'm a smart person?  A go-getter?  Because I'm tough and responsible and don't need anyone else?
> Why no?  God has blessed me in my personal life and in this country.



 You first said God is responsible for our National Blessings. I was just wanting something simple like what you would say they are, Freedom, Prosperity, etc.

 Kinda seems your are trying to ride the fence on this issue.


----------



## pigpen1

earl said:


> Historically that is incorrect. You may want to review the economic status of the draftees just in the VietNam police action. You will find the rich ones got college deferments ,etc. while the poor got an Asian vacation.
> I watched several shows today ,Dec. 7, and one was giving stats on WWII. in 1936 95 % of the people did not want to go to war . Draft dodgers were quite common even then. And who can forget Sgt. York's treatment by the military. Imagine that kind of treatment and counseling today.



 I know that is the way it was, and it is not right.  Just like if you have enough money you can kill your wife and get away with it, Like OJ. Just don't kill a dog, Mike Vick found out money ain't worth nothing then.


----------



## Ronnie T

pigpen1 said:


> You first said God is responsible for our National Blessings. I was just wanting something simple like what you would say they are, Freedom, Prosperity, etc.
> 
> Kinda seems your are trying to ride the fence on this issue.



There's no fence here for me to ride.
I don't care if you agree with me or not.  Not going to affect either of our lives in the least.

But I'm sure you would agree with me that this nation of ours has obviously been blessed by God?????
Or do you believe there's the remote chance that God has been abundantly good to us?


----------



## pigpen1

Ronnie T said:


> There's no fence here for me to ride.
> I don't care if you agree with me or not.  Not going to affect either of our lives in the least.
> 
> But I'm sure you would agree with me that this nation of ours has obviously been blessed by God?????
> Or do you believe there's the remote chance that God has been abundantly good to us?



 I believe God has blessed this Nation abundantly and I also know that the blessing we have in this country is because we have been victorious in the wars we have fought. 

I asked you in a earlier post  after you said "God is responsible for our National Blessings". Is it God who makes our military victorious? You said" I don't have the remotest idea".

 We would not have the blessings we have in this nation if it wasn't for our military and that is a fact. So since God is responsible for our National Blessings,  He must also be blessing our military.


----------



## Ronnie T

pigpen1 said:


> I believe God has blessed this Nation abundantly and I also know that the blessing we have in this country is because we have been victorious in the wars we have fought.
> 
> I asked you in a earlier post  after you said "God is responsible for our National Blessings". Is it God who makes our military victorious? You said" I don't have the remotest idea".
> 
> We would not have the blessings we have in this nation if it wasn't for our military and that is a fact. So since God is responsible for our National Blessings,  He must also be blessing our military.



I agree with you.
Now that doesn't mean God has been pleased with every venture we've undertaken.
But I do believe God uses us in many ways.
We would not have the blessings we have in this nation if it wasn't for God bestowing his loving kindness on us.


----------



## pileit

Ronnie T said:


> I don't know about the other veteran's opinions, but I don't believe everyone is cut out for Military duty.  Not everyone is cut out for combat.
> It takes more than national pride.
> Some people need to stay home for the sake of those who go.
> There are lots of questions that a person needs to ask and answer before committing themselves to possibly having to fight a war in a Vietnam that will have no significant impact on America, win or lose.
> 
> I think most service men/women willingly take those risk for the folks that can't or won't.
> It wasn't a big deal with me.
> 
> Also, I think I said this earlier, I didn't join the Army in 1967so that I could fight for the religious freedom of Christians in America.  God is in charge of religious freedom.  Nothing can stop any of us from worshiping God.  Nothing in this world can destroy the church of Christ.  I would never take the life of a total stranger just so other people can worship in absolute, total comfort.





Ronnie, I completely agree with you not everyone is cut out for military duty.  You you joined in in 1967 thank you.  I was drafted in 1968. Where I was, there were many more U S than R A'S It wasn't a matter of being cut out for the military duty or cut out for combat that wasn't an option for those who chose to obey the law.  I don't know about those staying home for the sake of those who go, if they didn't want to take up a weapon there were shovels for santitation detail. I could have asked all the questions in the world and gotten answers, but I didn't make any committment to go to Viet Nam it was made for me and thousands more like me.  I did my time as little as I liked being there I did my best, was well liked by my peers, nco's and officers.  I even got a good conduct medal.
As far as taking a life of a total stranger so other people can worship in total comfort is not the question.  The conclusion of the matter will we protect the right to worship if it mean taking out terrorist?  The truth of the matter total strangers were killed for much less reasons. 
The U.S. Military did a great job dehumanizing the Vietnamiese they were no longer humans we were killing, but gooks.  You mention others opinions probably referring to this forum.  I met with 30 Viet Nam Vets this past Friday, These are the people I look foward to seeing and talking with.  They have been there done that know first hand.  We don't talk about something we read in a book, but what we saw and did and know.
As far the ones who couldn't serve for mental or physical handicaps one thing 
, the ones that were qualified and  wouldn't go had a problem.
I still salute the flag.   When I saw the flag draped across a casket of my closest friend a Viet Nam veteran and saw it folded and given to his young widow. I shed tears and thank the Lord for his life . I will  worship God and pledge allegience to the flag.  These discussions have rekindled my dedication to our nation and the importance of the pledge,salute, and display  of the American Flag. I have one request we up here in N.G
make a big kudo  of the flag and the pledge it right salute it right .   Don't think you can do this stay away.  Fly it proudly.


----------



## Israel

Ronnie T said:


> 1Tim 2:1-3  First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
> 
> 
> Romans 131-5
> Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities.  For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
> Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
> For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil.
> 
> Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
> Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.
> 
> *We could just a well be living in Iraq, or Saudi Arabia.
> It just appears to me that God has blessed this country.  With all the national mistakes that have been made, we're still here.
> How can I explain that without including God in the explanation?
> What about those Christians living in places like Iraq.
> God is obviously dealing with them and their lives in a different way.  Why?  I couldn't begin to know.  But God's word makes it clear that He'll give those believers the strength and peace to live their lives fruitfully for Him.
> 
> In my personal life, have I achieved what I have because I'm a smart person?  A go-getter?  Because I'm tough and responsible and don't need anyone else?
> Why no?  God has blessed me in my personal life and in this country.



Interesting Ronnie.

In one place you have mentioned national pride, perhaps as though it is a good thing. 
Or am I wrong? 

In another I see you have quoted the scripture:

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities.  For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 

What does that mean in terms of 1776? Was it a "godly" rebellion? After all, the word god was attached to it. Not unlike the denominations you seem to loathe. Just stick the name of god on it, and then it must represent him?

I see some pressing you for an answer and agreement.

I am not. Just consider what you've written.

God raises empires and lays them low for his own purposes.
Babylon assuredly thought they had their god's favor. Therefore Babylon could exalt itself.
Greece and Rome likewise.

The test always comes when men take that small step from "I am blessed" to "I must be blessed because I am right"

Thanks be to God for the brothers and sisters under the heel of China's boot, and the many others suffering around the world that pray for the rest of the church, who believe their great blessing is the Christ, and who, by the grace of God, consider it an honor to have that boot across their throat.


----------



## Hogtown

pileit said:


> Ever know anyone to go grow fingers back that had been cut off?



Pileit - there is a much greater chance that a person will have their lost fingers restored via transplant from a cadaver than the odds of a 13 year old Amish child defying both his parents and the church (& thus God's will as they understand it) to demand more education  all in the hopes that they will be eligible to join the military when the turn 17.  Martin Luther's nailing of the the Ninety Five Theses to the door of the church of All Saints is small potatoes in comparison.


----------



## rjcruiser

pigpen1 said:


> I believe God has blessed this Nation abundantly and I also know that the blessing we have in this country is because we have been victorious in the wars we have fought.
> 
> We would not have the blessings we have in this nation if it wasn't for our military and that is a fact.





How do you know the blessings we hvae in this country is because of the wars we've fought?  How do you know we'd not have the blessings God has given if we'd not had the Revolution?

If I recall correctly, we didn't go to war with England for Religious freedom, I believe it was because of taxation?

Pig....you need a history lesson.  You've warped actual history to fit your view of God and your view of patriotism.

Every examply you give of going to war is in the OT.  Nowhere in the NT do we see war and killing for the gospel.  Amazingly, during the time of greatest persecution, the church grew the most.  And they didn't raise a sword to do it.


----------



## pigpen1

rjcruiser said:


> How do you know the blessings we hvae in this country is because of the wars we've fought?  How do you know we'd not have the blessings God has given if we'd not had the Revolution?
> 
> If I recall correctly, we didn't go to war with England for Religious freedom, I believe it was because of taxation?
> 
> Pig....you need a history lesson.  You've warped actual history to fit your view of God and your view of patriotism.
> 
> Every examply you give of going to war is in the OT.  Nowhere in the NT do we see war and killing for the gospel.  Amazingly, during the time of greatest persecution, the church grew the most.  And they didn't raise a sword to do it.



If you do not think God has Blessed this country thats fine, you do not have to agree with me that He has.


----------



## rjcruiser

rjcruiser said:


> How do you know the blessings we hvae in this country is because of the wars we've fought?  How do you know we'd not have the blessings God has given if we'd not had the Revolution?
> 
> If I recall correctly, we didn't go to war with England for Religious freedom, I believe it was because of taxation?
> 
> Pig....you need a history lesson.  You've warped actual history to fit your view of God and your view of patriotism.
> 
> Every examply you give of going to war is in the OT.  Nowhere in the NT do we see war and killing for the gospel.  Amazingly, during the time of greatest persecution, the church grew the most.  And they didn't raise a sword to do it.





pigpen1 said:


> If you do not think God has Blessed this country thats fine, you do not have to agree with me that He has.



Maybe you need a reading comprehension lesson along with the history lesson.

This debate (if you can call it that) is pointless.


----------



## pigpen1

Swamp Runner said:


> Isn't goverment an instituition set forth by God?
> Render to Caesar what is caesar's, render to God what is God's..
> Does pledging allegiance to the US supercede our allegiance to the Father?





rjcruiser said:


> Funny you put this....I was about to say the same thing.
> 
> 
> There are countless examples of characters in the Bible showing allegiance to their country and maintaining their allegiance to God.





rjcruiser said:


> Because I believe that it is my God-given responsibility to uphold the government that He has put in place.  Until that government requires me to do something that is against my belief's and against God's commands, I'll continue to pledge my allegiance to the flag and to the "republic for which it stands for."





rjcruiser said:


> How do you know the blessings we hvae in this country is because of the wars we've fought?  How do you know we'd not have the blessings God has given if we'd not had the Revolution?
> 
> If I recall correctly, we didn't go to war with England for Religious freedom, I believe it was because of taxation?
> 
> Pig....you need a history lesson.  You've warped actual history to fit your view of God and your view of patriotism.
> 
> Every examply you give of going to war is in the OT.  Nowhere in the NT do we see war and killing for the gospel.  Amazingly, during the time of greatest persecution, the church grew the most.  And they didn't raise a sword to do it.



James 1:8

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
KJV


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## pigpen1

rjcruiser said:


> I understand your questioning and the questioning/position of the little ole' Mennonite lady.
> 
> The problem with the Mennonite belief/position is that it is based upon governments of 100 years ago.  Somewhat like their position on being in the army.






rjcruiser said:


> Pig...welcome back....but I'm going to call you out.
> 
> You have no idea what you are talking about.  I don't know of a Mennonite who wouldn't defend their land.  Now...that being said, an offensive war and a defensive war are two different things to most Mennonites.
> 
> Also, I know several Mennonites who've changed their minds on joining the military based on the circumstances that have occurred over the last decade.  It is an issue that the Mennonites are dealing with right now.



Seems like they are not the only ones that change their minds, I think you will debate yourself.


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## Ronnie T

Israel said:


> Interesting Ronnie.
> 
> In one place you have mentioned national pride, perhaps as though it is a good thing.
> Or am I wrong?
> 
> In another I see you have quoted the scripture:
> 
> Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities.  For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
> 
> What does that mean in terms of 1776? Was it a "godly" rebellion? After all, the word god was attached to it. Not unlike the denominations you seem to loathe. Just stick the name of god on it, and then it must represent him?
> 
> I see some pressing you for an answer and agreement.
> 
> I am not. Just consider what you've written.
> 
> God raises empires and lays them low for his own purposes.
> Babylon assuredly thought they had their god's favor. Therefore Babylon could exalt itself.
> Greece and Rome likewise.
> 
> The test always comes when men take that small step from "I am blessed" to "I must be blessed because I am right"
> 
> Thanks be to God for the brothers and sisters under the heel of China's boot, and the many others suffering around the world that pray for the rest of the church, who believe their great blessing is the Christ, and who, by the grace of God, consider it an honor to have that boot across their throat.




Israel, I'd appreciate it if you and pigpen would not point out the flaws of my human thinking.
I should have stuck with my original comment on the very first page:  I don't have room left within me to trust this country anymore.  Not the government, and not the military.

My trust is in God.  My Savior is Jesus Christ.

And all the things that I "think" God  is doing could be nothing more than warm air.

Those who are truly blessed by God might be those Christians who are bold enough to serve Christ even though they live in China or Iran or Iraq.  

I've risked my life for a bunch of people I didn't even know but I've never risked my life for the spread of the Gospel by which I'm saved.

War will never bring this world to peace.  Only Jesus Christ can bring peace.  And He can do it for a person in Beruit lebanon, Saudi Arabia, or Saigon.

Here's the real problem in this discussion:  Most of us here on this forum have duel citizenship.  We are citizens of heaven and of earth.  And there's nothing we can do about it for we are stuck here.  We can renounce our earthly citizenship, but it doesn't change us.

Everything I "think" God is doing today in the world is suspect.  Who are I?  I move my little hinny out further on the limb each time I get full of myself rather than being full of God.

Don't stand below me.


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## pileit

pigpen1 said:


> Seems like they are not the only ones that change their minds, I think you will debate yourself.


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## Israel

Be as american as Jesus is.
Be as french as Jesus is.
Be as chinese as Jesus is.


"ye are not of this world even as I am not of this world."

or are you of this world?  

be as baptist as Jesus is
be as catholic as Jesus is
be as lutheran as Jesus is
be a calvinist as much as Jesus is

we are not american christians

we are either christians that live in america or Christ is indeed divided.

Wonderfully, for us all, he is not.


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## Ronnie T

Israel said:


> Be as american as Jesus is.
> Be as french as Jesus is.
> Be as chinese as Jesus is.
> 
> 
> "ye are not of this world even as I am not of this world."
> 
> or are you of this world?
> 
> be as baptist as Jesus is
> be as catholic as Jesus is
> be as lutheran as Jesus is
> be a calvinist as much as Jesus is
> 
> we are not american christians
> 
> we are either christians that live in america or Christ is indeed divided.
> 
> Wonderfully, for us all, he is not.



My dear Christian brother,

If you, like I, have voted in this country as a registered voter, enrolled a child into the school system, and any number of other things, you like myself, are an honorary citizen of this country.  Welcome.

Just as Paul was a citizen of Rome, we are citizens of the US of A.

But it isn't our home.


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## Israel

Ronnie T said:


> My dear Christian brother,
> 
> If you, like I, have voted in this country as a registered voter, enrolled a child into the school system, and any number of other things, you like myself, are an honorary citizen of this country.  Welcome.
> 
> Just as Paul was a citizen of Rome, we are citizens of the US of A.
> 
> But it isn't our home.



Fortunately, Paul, a wonderful example of a disciple is not the Lord.
And in that wonderful disciple's example of following, he too, came to understand his citizenship...so much so that Rome gladly revoked his (according to tradition) by taking his head.
When it was useful for the purpose of the gospel, Paul used that citizenship.
It surely faded as his identity.


For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,  I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.


Man, ya gotta just love his fire.
I wonder that if we didn't have Paul we might think the Pharisees were all beyond Christ's reach. (Except for maybe Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus...)
But wow, calling it all dung...no wonder those guys swore a pledge to kill him...he was showing that their club was not worth being in.


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## Ronnie T

Israel said:


> Man, ya gotta just love his fire.
> I wonder that if we didn't have Paul we might think the Pharisees were all beyond Christ's reach. (Except for maybe Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus...)
> But wow, calling it all dung...no wonder those guys swore a pledge to kill him...he was showing that their club was not worth being in.



My Bible studies almost always lead me back to the life of Paul.
Don't you think that in Paul we can see our true potential in Jesus Christ?
What did Paul have that I don't?


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## crackerdave

God blessed the Hebrew armies many times in battle - simply because they trusted Him.Not so sure how that would go today.
God blessed a young shepherd named David in battle - again,because of trust.


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## Israel

Ronnie T said:


> My Bible studies almost always lead me back to the life of Paul.
> Don't you think that in Paul we can see our true potential in Jesus Christ?
> What did Paul have that I don't?



Paul didn't have anything you don't.
That's what he spent his life post Damascus road bleeding, striving, weeping, hungering, lost at sea, shivering and imprisoned for us to get.

The mystery hidden from ages past...Christ in you, the hope of Glory.

I admit, with you, Paul sure is a great example of the 180.
For me, at least, probably the best delineated in the scripture. I mean, I know that Boanerges went on to become a little lamb with his head on Jesus breast...and I am sure that is no less a change.
But Paul...I can see all his religiousity crumble...all his disdain for romans, christians...the "dogs" as the jews called the others...the hebrew of hebrews...alone and cold in the jail cell, no one coming to visit, he's gone from one end of the known world to another to pour out his life for the brothers...and there he is...alone...but chugging along with Jesus, having a wonderful time, cause he had apprehended that for which he had been apprehended. 
No wonder he wrote, rejoice  in the Lord always...for me it is no burden, and for you it is safe.
He knew how much that joy was both a comfort...and an impetus.


If God ordains our ministry go no farther than beside our bed on our knees, we can all let go of what lay behind to press forward for the prize.

He was faithful.

We can hope to be told no more ourselves.


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## Ronnie T

Israel said:


> Paul didn't have anything you don't.
> That's what he spent his life post Damascus road bleeding, striving, weeping, hungering, lost at sea, shivering and imprisoned for us to get.
> 
> The mystery hidden from ages past...Christ in you, the hope of Glory.
> 
> I admit, with you, Paul sure is a great example of the 180.
> For me, at least, probably the best delineated in the scripture. I mean, I know that Boanerges went on to become a little lamb with his head on Jesus breast...and I am sure that is no less a change.
> But Paul...I can see all his religiousity crumble...all his disdain for romans, christians...the "dogs" as the jews called the others...the hebrew of hebrews...alone and cold in the jail cell, no one coming to visit, he's gone from one end of the known world to another to pour out his life for the brothers...and there he is...alone...but chugging along with Jesus, having a wonderful time, cause he had apprehended that for which he had been apprehended.
> No wonder he wrote, rejoice  in the Lord always...for me it is no burden, and for you it is safe.
> He knew how much that joy was both a comfort...and an impetus.
> 
> 
> If God ordains our ministry go no farther than beside our bed on our knees, we can all let go of what lay behind to press forward for the prize.
> 
> He was faithful.
> 
> We can hope to be told no more ourselves.




We could also do as Paul, walk away and finally give our ALL to the spreading of this great news.


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## Israel

Ronnie T said:


> We could also do as Paul, walk away and finally give our ALL to the spreading of this great news.


Amen, help us Lord...
Show us your glory that we may see.


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## dkang37

I think the allegiance of individuals to our flag (representative of our country) is what has preserved our freedoms, which includes freedom of religion. We have the freedom to worship however we choose. Yes, I believe I can pledge allegiance to my flag, my wife, my family, my high school football team, my faithful dog, and my God all at the same time. My allegiance to God however takes ultimate priority in my life. Just my two cents worth.


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