# Human Souls



## marketgunner (Jul 21, 2015)

Has ever human through  out History had a soul?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jul 21, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Has ever human through out History had a soul?


 
 yes, some people just have more soul than others.


----------



## marketgunner (Jul 21, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> yes, some people just have more soul than others.



oh, I set you up perfectly for that. Well done


----------



## marketgunner (Jul 21, 2015)

I can't accept that "all humans are/have souls" and "those who haven't heard the Gospel go to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored."

God doesn't put us in a place and time without the Gospel then make us accountable to hear it to be saved.

Oh , one might say, they are judge by their actions, The good go to heaven, well if so  then, Jesus death wasn't needed.

Well maybe God puts a soul in a body where it will have a chance to reject or accept the Gospel. After all he is God and says "All souls are mine"

anybody have any thoughts on this dilemma?


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jul 21, 2015)

Paul says that nature testifies to those.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Paul says that nature testifies to those.



Yes I think he says they are without excuse. What about totally depraved reprobates that can't come to God unless called?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2015)

This would be a good place to ask a couple of questions;

Are souls eternal and if so where was my soul before I was born?

Did Jesus have a human soul?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jul 21, 2015)

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.



Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, said the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Jeremiah 31:33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jul 21, 2015)

Rabbinical teachings for centuries have said that when God gave the law to Moses on the mount, that the rumblings that the Bible speaks of was God speaking in every language to every tribe and that it was heard around the world.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> 12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Was the Law written on the hearts of sinners and saints? All of those verses say more about Law keeping than salvation by faith. Was this before we had salvation by God's grace and the death of Jesus?
In other words, what's the importance of the Law if we are saved by the atoning blood of Jesus?
Wouldn't God have to open the eyes of the reprobate to his Law and then write in on his heart after salvation is granted?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jul 21, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Was the Law written on the hearts of sinners and saints? All of those verses say more about Law keeping than salvation by faith. Was this before we had salvation by God's grace and the death of Jesus?
> In other words, what's the importance of the Law if we are saved by the atoning blood of Jesus?
> Wouldn't God have to open the eyes of the reprobate to his Law and then write in on his heart after salvation is granted?


 
 Art, these texts are on on my heart to study more. I don't know but my first thought is that God can reach men outside of the church and Gospel and commune with their hearts, that do Gods will ..possibly without knowing the name Jesus but knowing the love???? 

 I don't know, just a thought for now, maybe someone else has studied this and can fill us in.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, these texts are on on my heart to study more. I don't know but my first thought is that God can reach men outside of the church and Gospel and commune with their hearts, that do Gods will ..possibly without knowing the name Jesus but knowing the love????
> 
> I don't know, just a thought for now, maybe someone else has studied this and can fill us in.



Yeah, I'm with both you and marketgunner in that we can't see God punishing souls that have never been given the opportunity to be elected.
I do think that every human has a soul. I don't believe that we have a soul before our human birth otherwise we'd all be eternal. We do have a created beginning. We are not immortal. I believe Jesus hasn't always had a human soul but received one at his human birth. Before then he existed as the Word.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jul 22, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Has ever human through  out History had a soul?



This is my view. Every human being is a soul. A soul as I understand it is a human being formed from clay and spirit. 

Many people use the word soul when they are really talking about the human spirit.

A human being without a spirit would be someone without the consciousness of God--but man is created a spiritual being and the consciousness of God to some degree is guarantied.

Because all human beings (souls) are made in the image of God they all are called by God.  A spiritual being man is called by his Creator who is a spiritual being ( entity).

Now some souls will not answer the call of God fully in their lives for many reasons. In today's world the hedonist way of life is a strong calling and the way of the sociopath has always been a strong calling.

In my view the hedonist and the sociopath both can say they believe in God but God in their lives  is not their significant other. Their consciousness of God in their lives, in their individual lives, is minimal. This goes for Christians as well as for all others. Nevertheless God calls all souls to him in my view.

To know the will of the Creator in our lives is a struggle even for the "elect". For example the Buddhist, Hindus, Pagans and those who see spirit in all of creation often have a hard time with the compassion and forked tongue of the said elect of Christianity.

So God is constantly calling man to himself--some answer the call with a bit more passion than others--even so that every human being is a soul or a spiritual and physical creation. And once the spiritual union with our Creator was such that death of the physical part of our creation did not exist or it was not apart of it's natural union with God or it knew of no sin--if I understood the lesson correctly. And this seems to be where all wills having Christ in their hearts, knowing that it is him or not, would aim to meet.


----------



## welderguy (Jul 22, 2015)

I agree with Gordon.Every human being is considered a soul.
I used to think soul and spirit were synonymous, but Heb.4:12 proved me wrong.

Heb.4:12
"For the Word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

My belief is that every person is a soul, and every person has a spirit, but not every person has THE SPIRIT.(Holy Spirit)


----------



## hummerpoo (Jul 22, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I agree with Gordon.Every human being is considered a soul.
> I used to think soul and spirit were synonymous, but Heb.4:12 proved me wrong.
> 
> Heb.4:12
> ...



I will not have to guess your understanding of man's essential makeup when I read your posts; it is the same as mine.  Have you considered this along side "in our image"?


----------



## welderguy (Jul 22, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> I will not have to guess your understanding of man's essential makeup when I read your posts; it is the same as mine.  Have you considered this along side "in our image"?



Yes.the fact that we are made in His image just blows my mind sometimes.
We are flesh and spirit, as He is.
Evolution can't produce that.
That's the power of God.


----------



## hummerpoo (Jul 22, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> This would be a good place to ask a couple of questions;
> 
> Are souls eternal and if so where was my soul before I was born?
> 
> Did Jesus have a human soul?





Banjo Picker said:


> Your first question, Are souls eternal no they are not,  man did not become a living soul until God breathed  into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2 :7).
> 
> Your next question, Did Jesus have a human soul yes he did.
> Hope this helps you.



Banjo, I don't disagree with you.

Art,

An analogy that has helped me, at times, is to use the Euclidian geometry that we all learned in school (never forgetting that all analogies are limited).

In the Euclidian system the "point" is first defined, then the line.
A "line" has no end point, and is therefore of infinite length.
A "line segment" has two defined "end points", and is therefore finite.
A "ray" has only one defined "end point" but is also infinite, never stopping on the other end.
(you can google illustrations)

Applying the analogy to time:

Devine "life" ≈ line
physical life ≈ line segment
spiritual life ≈ ray

It's a fun little mind game to play this on out, but becomes less useful as it goes, but when we read time definitive words in scripture, or elsewhere, it can sometimes be helpful.

I'm not a mathematician so I would welcome correction from the better informed.


----------



## marketgunner (Jul 22, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> This would be a good place to ask a couple of questions;
> 
> Are souls eternal and if so where was my soul before I was born?
> 
> Did Jesus have a human soul?



what are souls?


----------



## marketgunner (Jul 22, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Was the Law written on the hearts of sinners and saints? All of those verses say more about Law keeping than salvation by faith. Was this before we had salvation by God's grace and the death of Jesus?
> In other words, what's the importance of the Law if we are saved by the atoning blood of Jesus?
> Wouldn't God have to open the eyes of the reprobate to his Law and then write in on his heart after salvation is granted?



what if I lived somewhere and never heard of the Law, in a time and place that had no contact with Israel?


----------



## marketgunner (Jul 22, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Paul says that nature testifies to those.



He that hath the Son hath life, He that hath not the Son hath not life.

no room for Salvation by any other way


----------



## marketgunner (Jul 22, 2015)

Banjo Picker said:


> Your first question, Are souls eternal no they are not,  man did not become a living soul until God breathed  into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2 :7).
> 
> Your next question, Did Jesus have a human soul yes he did.
> Hope this helps you.



We know souls can exist outside of time.


----------



## ryanh487 (Jul 22, 2015)

There is no such thing as a separate eternal entity called a soul.  It is a pagan idea called "plutonic dualism" that contaminated roman doctrine from the pagans that bought their way into clergy positions.  The soul in the bible, in context, is the emotional/personality/feeling part of your mind, and can also mean a living being (body + spirit/breath = soul).  The Spirit, or Pneuma, is simply the "breath of life", which the bible says ALL living things possess and it returns to God from which it came once they die. Immortality is not natural for humans, nor is it achievable without holy transformation/recreation when Christ returns.  That is why the penalty of sin is DEATH, as in ceasing to exist, destruction through judgement fire, and the reward of righteousness is eternal life.


----------



## marketgunner (Jul 22, 2015)

ryanh487 said:


> There is no such thing as a separate eternal entity called a soul.  It is a pagan idea called "plutonic dualism" that contaminated roman doctrine from the pagans that bought their way into clergy positions.  The soul in the bible, in context, is the emotional/personality/feeling part of your mind, and can also mean a living being (body + spirit/breath = soul).  The Spirit, or Pneuma, is simply the "breath of life", which the bible says ALL living things possess and it returns to God from which it came once they die. Immortality is not natural for humans, nor is it achievable without holy transformation/recreation when Christ returns.  That is why the penalty of sin is DEATH, as in ceasing to exist, destruction through judgement fire, and the reward of righteousness is eternal life.



absolutely wrong, It is not pagan at all but was replicated in error in  some pagan religions

Your pnuema  (and  psyche exists) without the soma

Psa 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored.


----------



## ryanh487 (Jul 22, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> absolutely wrong, It is not pagan at all but was replicated in error in  some pagan religions
> 
> Your pnuema  (and  psyche exists) without the soma
> 
> ...



Psalm 16:10 uses Hebrew "nephesh", which translates as "my being" or "a living person".  David was poetically saying that the living entity of Christ would not decay in the grave. The word translated so often as CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored is also "sheowl", which means literally a grave or hole in the ground.  This was a messianic prophecy of Christ's resurrection, that He would not be left to decay in his tomb as every other body would be.



Matt 10:28 uses "psuche", which according to my concordance, distinctly refers to the breath of life/nature of being alive as a sentient being.  So what Jesus is saying is don't fear those that can harm you, fear the one that can absolutely destroy your existence with judgement fire.

The form of soul/spirit that refers to an eternal/immortal nature, strong's reference G4151, is only used in reference to the Spirit of God/the Holy Spirit.


----------



## marketgunner (Jul 22, 2015)

ryanh487 said:


> Psalm 16:10 uses Hebrew "nephesh", which translates as "my being" or "a living person".  David was poetically saying that the living entity of Christ would not decay in the grave. The word translated so often as CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored is also "sheowl", which means literally a grave or hole in the ground.  This was a messianic prophecy of Christ's resurrection, that He would not be left to decay in his tomb as every other body would be.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It means "place of the dead" a general term used of the grave and sheol, which is a underworld also a place of dead

Here is an example 

Deu 32:22
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Psa 86:13
For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored.

here, showing the extremes,

 Psa 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, behold, thou art there.

Geenna  future punishment as depicted by the  eternal fire in the dump in the Valley of Hinnom

 Mat 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored.

Hades from the Greek , Hades was in charge of keeping the dead souls

Rev 20:14
And death and CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> what if I lived somewhere and never heard of the Law, in a time and place that had no contact with Israel?



I'm not real sure where that places your soul after physical death but you still have one.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

Banjo Picker said:


> Your first question, Are souls eternal no they are not,  man did not become a living soul until God breathed  into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2 :7).
> 
> Your next question, Did Jesus have a human soul yes he did.
> Hope this helps you.



I agree that no part of me is eternal. My soul was created when my body was created.

Where is the human soul of Jesus today?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Yes.the fact that we are made in His image just blows my mind sometimes.
> We are flesh and spirit, as He is.
> Evolution can't produce that.
> That's the power of God.



Made in God's image means God has flesh? I thought God was a spirit?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> what are souls?



I'm not real sure, perhaps Welderguy or others can tell us the difference between our soul and spirit.


----------



## welderguy (Jul 23, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Made in God's image means God has flesh? I thought God was a spirit?



John 1
"and the Word was God"....."and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

welderguy said:


> John 1
> "and the Word was God"....."and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"



But God hasn't been flesh all of eternity eternity. If God became flesh at his incarnation this came later when he became flesh. 
His image hasn't always been flesh except in "word."
I guess one could say we were made in his future image if one considers "flesh" a part of God's image. 
I've never heard of God incarnate as flesh mentioned part of his image. Interesting concept.


----------



## welderguy (Jul 23, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> But God hasn't been flesh all of eternity eternity. If God became flesh at his incarnation this came later when he became flesh.
> His image hasn't always been flesh except in "word."
> I guess one could say we were made in his future image if one considers "flesh" a part of God's image.
> I've never heard of God incarnate as flesh mentioned part of his image. Interesting concept.



God/Jesus is not bound by time restraints.He's always been what He is throughout eternity past,present ,and future.That's why He's the great "I AM".Not "I WAS",or "I WILL BE'.

That's also why He said "I am God.I change not."


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

welderguy said:


> God/Jesus is not bound by time restraints.He's always been what He is throughout eternity past,present ,and future.That's why He's the great "I AM".Not "I WAS",or "I WILL BE'.
> 
> That's also why He said "I am God.I change not."



Then that would also mean that we can't change. We will do what God has always known we would do. Everything is God's word. He knew when Jesus would come to the earth or when God the Father would come to the earth as Jesus.
God is now Jesus and has always been Jesus yet Jesus has always been with God.


----------



## marketgunner (Jul 23, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree that no part of me is eternal. My soul was created when my body was created.
> 
> Where is the human soul of Jesus today?



I cannot find any verse that says my soul was created with my body.

but this verse suggests we were children before becoming flesh and blood.

Heb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> I cannot find any verse that says my soul was created with my body.
> 
> but this verse suggests we were children before becoming flesh and blood.
> 
> ...



That doesn't really say we existed before being born. I guess if you believe God was a partaker of flesh when he pre-existed as 1/3 of the deity of the pre-exisitng Jesus Spirit and became flesh. Then it would stand to reason that all pre-existing human spirits took on flesh and became humans.

If we all pre-existed, what separates us from God? Were we all children of God in this spirit world or in Heaven before becoming human reprobates?
You do realize that just being born a human makes you condemned?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

If we already pre-existed as spirits with God, what was God's plan in making us partake of flesh? Why not just stay with God?
God knew us before we were born. This doesn't mean we were spirits before being born. God knew us by his word/ mind/plan working outside of time. This is the same way he knew Jesus was the Word and the the Word was with God. This is the same way God created everything through Jesus and for Jesus. Nothing is a mystery or secret to God. In this respect he knew he would send Jesus or become Jesus himself if that's what one believes.

Good topic by the way. You are coming up with some interesting discussions.


----------



## marketgunner (Jul 23, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not real sure where that places your soul after physical death but you still have one.



your soul is permanent , your body is temporary and only useful for a timer and thus a purpose


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> your soul is permanent , your body is temporary and only useful for a timer and thus a purpose



Returning to your OP, why would some humans have the souls of sinning angels and other humans wouldn't have a soul at all?


----------



## marketgunner (Jul 24, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> If we already pre-existed as spirits with God, what was God's plan in making us partake of flesh? Why not just stay with God?
> God knew us before we were born. This doesn't mean we were spirits before being born. God knew us by his word/ mind/plan working outside of time. This is the same way he knew Jesus was the Word and the the Word was with God. This is the same way God created everything through Jesus and for Jesus. Nothing is a mystery or secret to God. In this respect he knew he would send Jesus or become Jesus himself if that's what one believes.
> 
> Good topic by the way. You are coming up with some interesting discussions.



because of sin. A Holy God cannot allow sin to remain in His presence.

God not only knew you. He had a one on one relationship with you that he is "reconciling" unto himself


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 24, 2015)

Is the soul part of the body that makes up the "flesh?" The part of the flesh that makes men sin and do evil deeds?
When one is born again he gets something new yet he fights with something old "flesh" that has to be a part of his soul. I mean it's not his body that makes him sin but something in his body. 
He get's a new spirit and and a new heart.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 24, 2015)

I see the trinity of our mind, body, and soul mentioned a lot. Why not our spirit? Spirit, body, and soul perhaps. I can't see our spirit making us sin as it's not a part of our body/flesh. We get a new spirit and still sin. At least before regeneration.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 24, 2015)

Banjo Picker said:


> (1) The body of any being is the outward or house in which his soul and spirit dwell (Gen 2:7,19 John 5:28-29; Matt. 27:52; 1Cor. 15 : 34-58; Jas. 2:26; 1 Thess. 5:23; Heb. 10:5-10). There are spiritual and natural bodies, or heavenly and earthly bodies; and both kinds are real (1 Cor. 15:40-49).
> (2) The soul is that invisible part of all living beings that feels -- the seat of his affections, emotions, passions, and desires, and which gives him self-consciousness and makes him a sentient being (Lev.23:43; Sam.22:2; 30:6; 2Sam 13:39; 2 Kings 4:27; 23:3; Ps. 107:5,9,18,26; John 12:27; Heb. 10:38; 4:12).
> (3) The spirit is that invisible part of all living beings that knows-- the seat of his intellect, mind, and will, and that which gives him self-determination and makes him a free moral agent and a rational being (1Cor.2:11; Matt.26:41; Exodus 35:21; Job 38:8,18; Prov. 20:27; Phil. 1:27; Heb. 4:12; Jas. 2:26; 1 Thess. 5:23).



Interesting that our spirit is what gives us freewill. Well then I guess that is what makes us sin and therefore is part of our flesh.
Yet it is our soul that makes us different from plants and animals or is it our spirit that makes us different?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 24, 2015)

welderguy said:


> John 1
> "and the Word was God"....."and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"



In your view that part of God's image is Jesus(flesh), Jesus said in Luke 24:39

See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

John 4:24
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

I do understand where you are coming from if God became flesh in the form of Jesus. If God was pierced on the cross. Especially if one believes God is talking to Jesus when he said;

26 “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

I wonder why most Trinitarians don't agree with this concept of flesh being a part of God's image? It makes no difference that in Jesus' preexistence, he did not have a tangible body because God knew that in the future he would.


----------



## marketgunner (Jul 24, 2015)

You have a soul. It is spiritual, it responds to spiritual stimuli,. The is your eternal part, a unique creation of God, Even identical twins are unique. 

Humans are not a physical resemblance of God but a spiritual being as God is.  

image in Hebrew means more that physical image

צֶלֶם tselem, tseh'-lem; from an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, i.e. (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence, a representative figure, especially an idol:—image, vain shew.


----------



## marketgunner (Jul 24, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Interesting that our spirit is what gives us freewill. Well then I guess that is what makes us sin and therefore is part of our flesh.
> Yet it is our soul that makes us different from plants and animals or is it our spirit that makes us different?



The spirit does not make us sin, We sin because we want to.

The soul sins not the flesh. although we all know the body or flesh suffers sometimes when we do sin.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 24, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> You have a soul. It is spiritual, it responds to spiritual stimuli,. The is your eternal part, a unique creation of God, Even identical twins are unique.
> 
> Humans are not a physical resemblance of God but a spiritual being as God is.
> 
> ...



Yet Jesus is an exact image of the invisible God. Jesus is God incarnate. Jesus is flesh. I'm not saying God the Father had flesh but God incarnate as a man had flesh. Therefore his flesh has to be a part of God's image. God's side was pierced. It was God's blood. God in the flesh as an image of the invisible God.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 24, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> You have a soul. It is spiritual, it responds to spiritual stimuli,. The is your eternal part, a unique creation of God, Even identical twins are unique.



Created, yet eternal?  Like Jesus?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 24, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> The spirit does not make us sin, We sin because we want to.
> 
> The soul sins not the flesh. although we all know the body or flesh suffers sometimes when we do sin.



The soul is what sins, sometimes using or affecting the body. It sounds like there is more to flesh than just the body. Maybe the mind is flesh, that part of our brain matter that is neither soul nor spirit.


----------



## marketgunner (Jul 24, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Returning to your OP, why would some humans have the souls of sinning angels and other humans wouldn't have a soul at all?



I can only suggest that some humans that never heard of Jesus must not have had souls because God is fair. I do not think God would put someone here that might go to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored then not provide for them to hear about Jesus.

I believe that any Human soul is a sinner.

Humanity is the method sinful eternal beings can be saved by one death.


----------



## hummerpoo (Jul 24, 2015)

Banjo Picker said:


> (1) The body of any being is the outward or house in which his soul and spirit dwell (Gen 2:7,19 John 5:28-29; Matt. 27:52; 1Cor. 15 : 34-58; Jas. 2:26; 1 Thess. 5:23; Heb. 10:5-10). There are spiritual and natural bodies, or heavenly and earthly bodies; and both kinds are real (1 Cor. 15:40-49).
> (2) The soul is that invisible part of all living beings that feels -- the seat of his affections, emotions, passions, and desires, and which gives him self-consciousness and makes him a sentient being (Lev.23:43; Sam.22:2; 30:6; 2Sam 13:39; 2 Kings 4:27; 23:3; Ps. 107:5,9,18,26; John 12:27; Heb. 10:38; 4:12).
> (3) The spirit is that invisible part of all living beings that knows-- the seat of his intellect, mind, and will, and that which gives him self-determination and makes him a free moral agent and a rational being (1Cor.2:11; Matt.26:41; Exodus 35:21; Job 38:8,18; Prov. 20:27; Phil. 1:27; Heb. 4:12; Jas. 2:26; 1 Thess. 5:23).



If your post was intended to relate directly to mine, I’m missing the connection; mine relating to the duration of life and yours to the composition of man’s being.  However, I very much appreciate you having made the post as it has prompted me to revisit the issue.

On the body I believe we are in complete agreement.  I am surprised by those who would argue with “There are spiritual and natural bodies, or heavenly and earthly bodies; and both kinds are real (1 Cor. 15:40-49). “  They will agree with “glorified” but argue with “spiritual”.

I also think that we agree on those elements of the soul which you include.  I do not normally separate intellect and mind, but would include them in the soul.

I do not find anything in scripture that sufficiently supports inclusion of intellect or mind as elements of man’s spirit, and I look to 1 Cor. 2:11-13 for the starting place showing the separation of mind and spirit.

My impression from the way you use of the term “self-determination” (forgive me if I misunderstand) leads me to think that, on that issue, we could rehash the arguments that have eaten up more time, energy, mind, intellect, paper, and ink than any other theological issue for the last 1800 yrs., all to the same undetermined conclusion.  I have no desire for such a rehash.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 24, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> I can only suggest that some humans that never heard of Jesus must not have had souls because God is fair. I do not think God would put someone here that might go to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored then not provide for them to hear about Jesus.
> 
> I believe that any Human soul is a sinner.
> 
> Humanity is the method sinful eternal beings can be saved by one death.



Then you wouldn't agree with Banjo picker;

(2) The soul is that invisible part of all living beings that feels -- the seat of his affections, emotions, passions, and desires, and which gives him self-consciousness and makes him a sentient being (Lev.23:43; Sam.22:2; 30:6; 2Sam 13:39; 2 Kings 4:27; 23:3; Ps. 107:5,9,18,26; John 12:27; Heb. 10:38; 4:12).

Just by the fact that he said all. All have _______ and fell short of the Glory of God.
"all" that have a soul that is. 
What are the others? The humans without souls? The humans that have never sinned? 
I guess they still sin as flesh sins but without a soul these sins wouldn't count. You can't very well be expected to go to Heaven or He11 without a soul so I guess they do "die when they die."
Jesus died for all sins and the sins of the world. Maybe he died for the sins of these humans without souls and they get a "Universal Salvation" pass to Heaven.


----------



## marketgunner (Jul 25, 2015)

There are no humans that have never sinned, maybe babies, yet if they have or are a soul and are in this place, you area condemned sinner already held in prison, awaiting judgment

The soul is as he says,  yet the soul is how we can know God. Some settle for other spiritual things, it is not the self conscious but spirit conscious , even our own.

I can accept every human had one unless I accept that God is not just... so I reject the soul in every body 
and cannot accept a universal pass unless the Cross is minimized


----------

