# Does Religion Poison Everything?



## Madsnooker (Mar 29, 2012)

I don't post in here very often but thought this was worth posting for you atheist to ponder, rip apart, etc.

Every morning I get what's called a "slice of infinity" from Ravi Zacharias ministries. 

By the way, Ravi is a brilliant and fascinating speaker no matter what side of the fence you argue from. He speaks regularly at Harvard and Yale as well as many other top institutions around the world giving lectures as well as debating with the top athiest of our time.  



"Does Religion Poison Everything?



A common claim made by many atheists is that religion causes evil, suffering, division and war. For example, at the Munk Debate in Toronto last November, Christopher Hitchens argued this very point against Tony Blair. Religion, Hitchens claimed, causes sectarianism, division, strife, disagreement, war, poverty and a host of societal evils. In his best-selling book, God is Not Great, Hitchens even wrote that "religion poisons everything."



How might a Christian respond? Well, first, I'd point out there's a major problem with Hitchens' argument. You could remove the word "religion" from his statement "religion poisons everything" and replace it with many other words. Politics, for example. Politics causes division, bloodshed, argument, and war. Politics poisons everything. Or what about money? Money causes crime, resentment, bloodshed, division and poverty. Money poisons everything.



You see the problem is that atheists like  Christopher Hitchens have built their worldview on the idea that human beings are essentially good and that the world is getting better—a kind of naïve utopianism. But the world isn't like that, is it? Rather, it seems to be the case that whatever human beings lay hold off, they use to cause damage. That applies to money, politics, government, science—and religion. The problem is not with religion or politics, the problem is not out there somewhere, the problem lies in here, in the human heart.



Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the Russian novelist and political commentator, who survived the Russian gulags and wrote with amazing insight into the human condition, once famously said this: "The dividing line between good and evil runs right through the middle of every human heart." What the world needs, as an answer to violence and injustice, poverty and pain, is not a clever philosophy, not a religious system, not a new politic, not more money, more education—none of these will  fundamentally change anything. Rather, it needs individual transformation, a radical transformation of the human heart. Only Jesus Christ offers that possibility if we are willing to surrender our lives to him.



I often find it interesting to point out to my atheist friends that Jesus himself was also anti-religion. He regularly clashed with the religious leaders of his day because he saw empty religion as powerless, damaging, and enslaving. Ultimately that stance led to his crucifixion. And Christians, of course, cannot talk about suffering and evil, pain, and violence, without talking about the example of Jesus, one to whom violence was done. His example has inspired millions if not billions of Christians to give sacrificially, to love their neighbors, to engage in peace making. One of the most powerful recent examples was the Amish School Shooting in 2006. Not only did the families of the victims publically forgive the perpetrator and offer pastoral support to his family,  they set up a trust fund to help the wife of the shooter, who had killed himself too. Only Jesus Christ offers the transformative power that makes that kind of choice possible."


It's amazing to me that people try to argue, if not for religion, we would all be one big happy family and man wouldn't be trying to take advantage of, conquer, control other men around the world.


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## stringmusic (Mar 29, 2012)

"Slice of infinity" is great. Thanks for posting.


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## Four (Mar 29, 2012)

Madsnooker said:


> How might a Christian respond? Well, first, I'd point out there's a major problem with Hitchens' argument. You could remove the word "religion" from his statement "religion poisons everything" and replace it with many other words. Politics, for example. Politics causes division, bloodshed, argument, and war. Politics poisons everything. Or what about money? Money causes crime, resentment, bloodshed, division and poverty. Money poisons everything.



This isnt an argument against the claim, it's a red herring. It's like the child pointing at his brother when he gets in trouble and saying "he did it too!"



Madsnooker said:


> You see the problem is that atheists like  Christopher Hitchens have built their worldview on the idea that human beings are essentially good and that the world is getting better—a kind of naïve utopianism. But the world isn't like that, is it? Rather, it seems to be the case that whatever human beings lay hold off, they use to cause damage. That applies to money, politics, government, science—and religion. The problem is not with religion or politics, the problem is not out there somewhere, the problem lies in here, in the human heart.



I dont see it as a problem, people are not born evil, that's  a terrible judao-christian dogma.  People are essentially good.  Is everyone? No.

The world is getting better, life expectancy has grown and continue to grow, quality of life has grown and continues to grow.




Madsnooker said:


> Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the Russian novelist and political commentator, who survived the Russian gulags and wrote with amazing insight into the human condition, once famously said this: "The dividing line between good and evil runs right through the middle of every human heart." What the world needs, as an answer to violence and injustice, poverty and pain, is not a clever philosophy, not a religious system, not a new politic, not more money, more education—none of these will  fundamentally change anything. Rather, it needs individual transformation, a radical transformation of the human heart. Only Jesus Christ offers that possibility if we are willing to surrender our lives to him.



Of course someone who experienced one of the greatest events of human suffering in recent time would be a bit pessimistic about the human condition. Also, this is just an assertion from one person who had horrible things happen to him. 



Madsnooker said:


> I often find it interesting to point out to my atheist friends that Jesus himself was also anti-religion. He regularly clashed with the religious leaders of his day because he saw empty religion as powerless, damaging, and enslaving. Ultimately that stance led to his crucifixion. And Christians, of course, cannot talk about suffering and evil, pain, and violence, without talking about the example of Jesus, one to whom violence was done. His example has inspired millions if not billions of Christians to give sacrificially, to love their neighbors, to engage in peace making. One of the most powerful recent examples was the Amish School Shooting in 2006. Not only did the families of the victims publically forgive the perpetrator and offer pastoral support to his family,  they set up a trust fund to help the wife of the shooter, who had killed himself too. Only Jesus Christ offers the transformative power that makes that kind of choice possible."



So.. you started the post contesting the stance that religion poisons everything, but you end it by saying that jesus would agree? So can I assume that you are of the stance contrary to jesus?



Madsnooker said:


> It's amazing to me that people try to argue, if not for religion, we would all be one big happy family and man wouldn't be trying to take advantage of, conquer, control other men around the world.



Again, you're not even arguing against the premise, you're simply saying that religion isn't the ONLY thing that poisons things... hardly a good case to make


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## Madsnooker (Mar 29, 2012)

Four said:


> This isnt an argument against the claim, it's a red herring. It's like the child pointing at his brother when he gets in trouble and saying "he did it too!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Four, 

I'm not here to debate my position becuase my position is not debateable. Thats why I don't frequent here to debate. Nothing I will say will change your mind. I know what life has given me up to date, and the true life experiences I have recieved and what I have witnessed in my life. Once I became a follower of Jesus Christ, and started relying on him for guidance in my everyday life, and have had awesome events happen to me personally (coincidences I'm sure!!), I know in whom I believe!!!!

As far as my post, I think you missed the point. Ravi wasn't saying that religion doesn't poison things greatly, but that many other things have poisened things greatly as well. He was making the point that athiest use this argument frequently to put down religion but its not even about religion when it comes to Jesus Christ and the message he brought. Thats why he used the example of Jesus ripping the religous leaders of his day.

Anyway, if you don't agree with Ravi's thought on this, thats fine. Obviously, many will and many won't. Still thought it was worth posting as I've seen this argument used many times here like religion is why man quarrells exclusively.

Again, I didn't post this to spend all day trying to change minds I just posted it as maybe an answer fro the other side of the argument. You guys can argue it till the cows come home if you want.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 29, 2012)

Madsnooker said:


> In his best-selling book, God is Not Great, Hitchens even wrote that "religion poisons everything."



It's one of my favorite books.  I highly recommend it to all.  You have nothing to fear, Jesus'll still be there waiting for you at the end right?




Madsnooker said:


> How might a Christian respond? Well, first, I'd point out there's a major problem with Hitchens' argument. You could remove the word "religion" from his statement "religion poisons everything" and replace it with many other words. Politics, for example. Politics causes division, bloodshed, argument, and war. Politics poisons everything. Or what about money? Money causes crime, resentment, bloodshed, division and poverty. Money poisons everything.



True enough.   But what distinguishes politics and money from religion though?  Religion is the only concept listed here that can  be dropped like a bad habit tomorrow.  It's the only one of these that humans willingly cling to.  



Madsnooker said:


> You see the problem is that atheists like  Christopher Hitchens have built their worldview on the idea that human beings are essentially good and that the world is getting betterâ€”a kind of naïve utopianism. But the world isn't like that, is it? Rather, it seems to be the case that whatever human beings lay hold off, they use to cause damage. That applies to money, politics, government, scienceâ€”and religion. The problem is not with religion or politics, the problem is not out there somewhere, the problem lies in here, in the human heart.



Yeah this is kind of what Hitchens is getting at, asserting that it's religion causing most of the spoilage throughout history.  Mind you, he doesn't single out Christianity.



Madsnooker said:


> Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the Russian novelist and political commentator, who survived the Russian gulags and wrote with amazing insight into the human condition, once famously said this: "The dividing line between good and evil runs right through the middle of every human heart."



I don't think he was referring to religion here though.  Probably more about the evil he experienced while working as a slave in Siberia for 8 years.  Subzero temperatures, near starvation, lice-ridden, etc all for referring to Stalin as "the whiskered one".




Madsnooker said:


> It's amazing to me that people try to argue, if not for religion, we would all be one big happy family and man wouldn't be trying to take advantage of, conquer, control other men around the world.



The only way we have peace and religion in the world simultaneously is when one team wins out.  Muslims or Christians could take over and exterminate all the unfaithful and all would be right.  What am I saying though, even then it would still be Sunnis vs Shiites, Baptists vs Methodists, Catholics vs Episcopalians, etc.  But even without religion it would not be perfect.  I believe we'd have a lot less war and conflict though.  Way to put the extreme argument in our mouths!


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## Four (Mar 29, 2012)

Madsnooker said:


> Four,
> 
> I'm not here to debate my position becuase my position is not debateable. Thats why I don't frequent here to debate. Nothing I will say will change your mind. I know what life has given me up to date, and the true life experiences I have recieved and what I have witnessed in my life. Once I became a follower of Jesus Christ, and started relying on him for guidance in my everyday life, and have had awesome events happen to me personally (coincidences I'm sure!!), I know in whom I believe!!!!
> 
> ...



Well i agree that religion poisons things greatly, as well as politics, war, etc.

So certainly i am against all these things. I don't only rally against religion.

I guess we're sort-of on the same page... except for the whole jesus saves part.


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## Madsnooker (Mar 29, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> The only way we have peace and religion in the world simultaneously is when one team wins out.  Muslims or Christians could take over and exterminate all the unfaithful and all would be right.  What am I saying though, even then it would still be Sunnis vs Shiites, Baptists vs Methodists, Catholics vs Episcopalians, etc.  But even without religion it would not be perfect.  I believe we'd have a lot less war and conflict though.  Way to put the extreme argument in our mouths!



Actually, the muslems are the only ones I see trying to do any exterminating. Not sure what news channels you watch though. 

4 of the 6 examples you gave all believe in Jesus Christ as the Savoir.


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## Madsnooker (Mar 29, 2012)

Four said:


> Well i agree that religion poisons things greatly, as well as politics, war, etc.
> 
> So certainly i am against all these things. I don't only rally against religion.
> 
> I guess we're sort-of on the same page... except for the whole jesus saves part.



That sounds about right.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 29, 2012)

Madsnooker said:


> Actually, the muslems are the only ones I see trying to do any exterminating. Not sure what news channels you watch though.



The ones that acknowledge African strife now and then.



Madsnooker said:


> 4 of the 6 examples you gave all believe in Jesus Christ as the Savoir.



Yes.  I know.  Not much of a history buff are ye?


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## Madsnooker (Mar 29, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Yes.  I know.  Not much of a history buff are ye?



Yes I am and I also realize I was being very general in this statement.


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## TheBishop (Mar 29, 2012)

Madsnooker said:


> Four,
> 
> I'm not here to debate my position (Then I believe you have posted in the wrong forum, for it will be debated)becuase my position is not debateable. Thats why I don't frequent here to debate. Nothing I will say will change your mind. I know what life has given me up to date, and the true life experiences I have recieved and what I have witnessed in my life. Once I became a follower of Jesus Christ, and started relying on him for guidance in my everyday life, and have had awesome events happen to me personally (coincidences I'm sure!!), I know in whom I believe!!!!
> 
> ...



This is a believers argument for believers, not the minds that proposed the ideas, that this is designed to refute.


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## atlashunter (Mar 29, 2012)

Madsnooker,

If you enjoy watching debates you should watch the Intelligence squared debate where Hitchens and others debate whether the Catholic church is a force for good in the world. Many of your rebuttals are addressed.


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## Madman (Mar 29, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> It's one of my favorite books.  I highly recommend it to all.



I'll wait for it to come out on the internet for free.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 29, 2012)

Madman said:


> I'll wait for it to come out on the internet for free.



Do they have libraries where you live?


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## gen273 (Mar 29, 2012)

"I dont see it as a problem, people are not born evil, that's  a terrible judao-christian dogma.  People are essentially good.  Is everyone? No."

Essentially good?  What is your definition of evil? The first time you lied to your parents were you being good?  Were you taught that or was it just something in you? Whats the difference between the people that are essentially good and the other that aren't?

Religion and being an authentic follower of Christ is not the same thing. As said before Jesus was against religion.  Religion as it was then is the same as it is now, full of lies. Jesus on the other hand called out the "religious", after all it was the "religious" that crucified him.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 29, 2012)

MS - I enjoyed your post. It forces us to look at ourselves. There is no doubt that atrocities have been committed by men in the name of all kinds of things, including religion of any type.

We are far too often poor representatives of the Love, Grace, and Mercy of God. The change must start with ourselves.

For the agnostics and atheists, without God's Love, Grace, and Mercy, you get what we have already got (our own responsibility). So far, it has not been working out so well.


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## doenightmare (Mar 29, 2012)

I don't understand why atheist love to argue about the existence of a higher power other than themselves. They believe in nothing and that doesn't need to be proven or debated. Nothing is nothing - go your way brother and have a good trip. Oh - and God Bless!


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## mtnwoman (Mar 29, 2012)

doenightmare said:


> I don't understand why atheist love to argue about the existence of a higher power other than themselves. They believe in nothing and that doesn't need to be proven or debated. Nothing is nothing - go your way brother and have a good trip. Oh - and God Bless!



I just read somewhere in the past few days and it was on a political forum, that a poll said that 84% of all Americans believe in God no matter their political preference.
My grandmother was highly religious, gotta be in church everytime the doors are open....but the first time she voted against the democratic party was John Kennedy who was a Catholic....so don't tell me that both parties are not predjudicial. I know for a fact they are.


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## pnome (Mar 29, 2012)

Madsnooker said:


> I don't post in here very often but thought this was worth posting for you atheist to ponder, rip apart, etc.
> 
> Every morning I get what's called a "slice of infinity" from Ravi Zacharias ministries.
> 
> ...



Good read and Ravi makes some excellent points.

However, I have a question.

Why "Only Jesus Christ"?  Why can a person not just make the transformation on his own?  Why not through the teachings of some other figure?  Why is this the "only" path?


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## doenightmare (Mar 29, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I just read somewhere in the past few days and it was on a political forum, that a poll said that 84% of all Americans believe in God no matter their political preference.
> My grandmother was highly religious, gotta be in church everytime the doors are open....but the first time she voted against the democratic party was John Kennedy who was a Catholic....so don't tell me that both parties are not predjudicial. I know for a fact they are.



Ms. mtnwoman - I made no reference to anything remotely political. My post was just an observation on atheist obsession with debating Christians - trying to prove nothing. Probably off topic but


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## ted_BSR (Mar 29, 2012)

pnome said:


> Good read and Ravi makes some excellent points.
> 
> However, I have a question.
> 
> Why "Only Jesus Christ"?  Why can a person not just make the transformation on his own?  Why not through the teachings of some other figure?  Why is this the "only" path?



John 14:6


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## pnome (Mar 30, 2012)

ted_BSR said:


> John 14:6



That doesn't answer the question.. it begs it.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 30, 2012)

pnome said:


> That doesn't answer the question.. it begs it.



Depends on you point of view.


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## ambush80 (Mar 30, 2012)

pnome said:


> Good read and Ravi makes some excellent points.
> 
> However, I have a question.
> 
> Why "Only Jesus Christ"?  Why can a person not just make the transformation on his own?  Why not through the teachings of some other figure?  Why is this the "only" path?




Hey, Pnome,

Now that you're a deist, are you trying to figure out which deity it is?


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## pnome (Mar 30, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Now that you're a deist, are you trying to figure out which deity it is?



That would take a GREAT deal of effort.   No thanks, I don't pretend to know anything about that.  But when someone says their god is the "only way" I'm interested in why, exactly, they think that's so.  

Who knows?  Maybe they'll convince me.  I was convinced of something I never would have thought I would be convinced of before.  It could happen.  

I like to think I've got the bar raised high enough.  But not too high.


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## fish hawk (Mar 30, 2012)

Good read snooker!!!


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## Four (Mar 30, 2012)

gen273 said:


> "I dont see it as a problem, people are not born evil, that's  a terrible judao-christian dogma.  People are essentially good.  Is everyone? No."
> 
> Essentially good?  What is your definition of evil? The first time you lied to your parents were you being good?  Were you taught that or was it just something in you? Whats the difference between the people that are essentially good and the other that aren't?



I think it's rooted in empathy, the non aggression principle, etc.

I don't think lying is evil, nor good, but morally neutral. I think evil requires action, or the threat of action. I think the average person you can trust and they wont let you down.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 30, 2012)

pnome said:


> That would take a GREAT deal of effort.   No thanks, I don't pretend to know anything about that.  But when someone says their god is the "only way" I'm interested in why, exactly, they think that's so.
> 
> Who knows?  Maybe they'll convince me.  I was convinced of something I never would have thought I would be convinced of before.  It could happen.
> 
> I like to think I've got the bar raised high enough.  But not too high.



Just for the record PNOME, I am not trying to convince anybody to believe the things I do. I think that ultimately only God can show you the truth. He might use me, or Six Million Dollar Ham, but it isn't us who have the power to do the actual convincing.


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## mtnwoman (Apr 3, 2012)

doenightmare said:


> Ms. mtnwoman - I made no reference to anything remotely political. My post was just an observation on atheist obsession with debating Christians - trying to prove nothing. Probably off topic but



No, I'm sorry I know you didn't. I was actually covering several posts in that one post. I'm bad about doing that...I was basically agreeing with your post but adding my 2 cents to what somebody else said.


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## mtnwoman (Apr 3, 2012)

Four said:


> I think it's rooted in empathy, the non aggression principle, etc.
> 
> I don't think lying is evil, nor good, but morally neutral. I think evil requires action, or the threat of action. I think the average person you can trust and they wont let you down.


Doesn't it at least depend on the lie?
If someone asks me if their hair looks good, and it really doesn't, I'd probably says yeah it looks good, come here and let me fix that part.

If my granddaughter tells me she's walking up here to the store (which I would never her do anyway, cause I ain't stupid).....but actually she's going to meet some idjit she doesn't know that she met on the internet.

If you ask a child did they break something and they lie about it, you think that's ok? Usually when there is a lie involved there either has been or will be an action.
I think giving(lying) someone the wrong information, absolutely can not be considered a good thing....????

When I was young and I'm 60 and anybody else here, lied when they were young, they got punished. And that's why I say morals are running down hill......lying is not bad????.....kinda proves my point. We're losing our morals.


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## Four (Apr 3, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Doesn't it at least depend on the lie?
> If someone asks me if their hair looks good, and it really doesn't, I'd probably says yeah it looks good, come here and let me fix that part.
> 
> If my granddaughter tells me she's walking up here to the store (which I would never her do anyway, cause I ain't stupid).....but actually she's going to meet some idjit she doesn't know that she met on the internet.
> ...



As long as the lie isn't coercive, i'ts not immoral. Its aesthetically negative at worst.


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## ted_BSR (Apr 5, 2012)

Four said:


> As long as the lie isn't coercive, i'ts not immoral. Its aesthetically negative at worst.



That is very convienant. The truth is not.


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## Four (Apr 6, 2012)

ted_BSR said:


> That is very convienant. The truth is not.



no you


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## Madman (Apr 6, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Do they have libraries where you live?



Yeh but fuel is $4.20/gal, thank you Barak Hussien Obama, So I'll wait for the internet version.


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## ted_BSR (Apr 6, 2012)

Four said:


> no you



Were you pointing at your monitor when you typed that?


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## Six million dollar ham (Apr 7, 2012)

Madman said:


> Yeh but fuel is $4.20/gal, thank you Barak Hussien Obama, So I'll wait for the internet version.



Wow.  Not much point in arguing with someone who clings to flimsy excuses for remaining unenlightened.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 7, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Do they have libraries where you live?



This book?

http://www.evolbiol.ru/large_files/hitchens.pdf


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## Six million dollar ham (Apr 8, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> This book?
> 
> http://www.evolbiol.ru/large_files/hitchens.pdf



Nice find.  I don't recognize it to the letter but that looks like it an awful lot.  

But hey, gas is $4.20 because of Obama.


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