# Kentucky Longrifle Question



## headoftheholler (Jan 6, 2010)

I have an opprotunity to purchase a Kentucky-style .45 cal. flintlock that was recently completed here in eastern ky but I don't have an idea price-wise where these run.  The rifle in question has a tiger-striped maple stock that will flat out knock your eyeballs out.  The hardware and barrell are browned instead of brass, which I like.  They are asking a grand.  Any thoughts?


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## tv_racin_fan (Jan 6, 2010)

It depends on so many factors I don't think anyone could make a decent determination on the info you have given.

Who made it? What lock and who made it? Is the lock tuned or factory stock?

It might be worth about $500 or it might be worth closer to $5000 and more.

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## headoftheholler (Jan 6, 2010)

The rifle is in a gunshop.  I need to get pics and post if I can.  The wood looks identical to this:


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## aubie (Jan 6, 2010)

The wood is curly maple, also known as tiger maple.  x2 what tv racin fan said.  It's value greatly depends on whether it custom built or production, what lock it has, barrel, etc.  My father-in-law has a custom hand-built longrifle built by Hershel House himself and is worth quite a bit of money.  See if you can find out who made it.  I also know someone who custom built a longrifle for himself.  He ordered bits and pieces from here and there, mainly from trackofthewolf.com, but I'd easily say it's worth a grand.  He has a lot of man hours in it and quality components such as a Siler lock and Getz barrel.  I'd say he has close to a grand just in parts, stock, etc. not even including all the man hours spent mortising, inlaying, scrollwork, etc.


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## headoftheholler (Jan 6, 2010)

From what I know the stock was carved by a man here and built with parts most likely from a catalog ???
No makers marks anywhere.  Not a mass produced rifle.  The stock is in the shape of the one similar to the rifle in last of mochicans with the buttstock having a sharp curve to it, and very very long.


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## LanceColeman (Jan 6, 2010)

It's hard to actually buy parts, GOOD PARTS ie davis double set triggers, chambers locks, colerain or rice swamped barrels and a premium stock and furniture for less than 600. most "value deals run 525-725 and thats still needing breechplugs installed, lugs cut in, final inletting, barrel pinning, etc etc etc you get the drift.

So for a custom rifle?? a grand is not  a bad price at all assuming the maker done his job right.

You can go to "guns for sale" on www.trackofthewolf.com and get an idea of what custom rifles can run second hand.


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## headoftheholler (Jan 6, 2010)

I know its next to impossible to put a price on a rifle you can't see, escpecially one that is made by an individual instead of a manufacturer, so I really appreciate everyones effort.  I'm going to try and go back one last time and hold it a bit longer, I do remember the rear sight had a leaf looking decoration coming off it, sound like anything over the counter?  Also certain parts of the barrell were pinned perfectly.  The entire barrel, lock, ect is all brown not blued.  Hope this helps ? ? ? ?


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## LanceColeman (Jan 6, 2010)

headoftheholler said:


> I know its next to impossible to put a price on a rifle you can't see, escpecially one that is made by an individual instead of a manufacturer, so I really appreciate everyones effort.  I'm going to try and go back one last time and hold it a bit longer, I do remember the rear sight had a leaf looking decoration coming off it, sound like anything over the counter?  Also certain parts of the barrell were pinned perfectly.  The entire barrel, lock, ect is all brown not blued.  Hope this helps ? ? ? ?



You'll find more "custom" or rifles ,made by individuals than anything else this side of TC hawkens, old CVAs and lyman plains rifles.

I have both custom and manufactured. in each sense?? You get what you pay for.


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## whitworth (Jan 7, 2010)

*The real "Kentucky" rifles ...*

were actually made in Pennsylvania, during the time of Daniel Boone.  
Kentucky was frontier country and didn't have any advanced industry of any type during that period.  

In fact, Daniel Boone was born on a farm in Pennsylvania, not far from my wife's kin.   

Anyone who studies muzzleloader technology and good rifle work, has to study the craftsmen of Lancaster, Pennsylvania and some other areas of Pennsylvania. 

Kentucky was where they had great use of a muzzleloading rifle; not known as the great crafting area for muzzleloading rifles.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 7, 2010)

If it has a good barrel and good components (Siler/Chambers lock, Davis triggers, etc.) the parts would cost nearly that much. A good chunk of curly maple by itself can set you back several bills.


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## Flintrock (Jan 7, 2010)

All the originals barrels were  browned as you described and not blued. All newly made replicas with blued barrels are all technically wrong for the time period they attempting to represent.
,
Sounds like a Tennessee mountain rifle with iron hardware and the sharp curved buttplate.

From your description,It sounds ok so far as the maker was knowledgable enough to brown the barrel and to use pins.
.
My  concern is the quality of parts in the rifle.
Ive  seen good gun builders build a beautiful rifle with inferior parts and I have  seen poor gun builders build an ugly rifle with quality parts. 
.
You can always ask the gun shop to take the barrel out of the stock.There is probably some sort of a stamp on the underside 

Your rear sight decription is confusing." leaf comming off "
The rear sight is normally one piece and dov tail into place


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## hawgrider1200 (Jan 7, 2010)

Go ahead and buy it. Lets see pix!!! No really, If I was going to spend thatmuch monaey for a flintlock, I'd get TVM to make one for me.


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## Darkhorse (Jan 7, 2010)

I've seen those rear sights in parts catalogs. It sounds like a primitive rear with a finial on the front. works the same. Sight is dovetailed and when in place the finial lays on the top flat of the barrell pointing towards the muzzle. No practical purpose just decoration. Many photos of original rifles show this type of rear sight.
Having built a few of these rifles I would not attempt to put a price on it without a thorough examination done by yours truly of the piece.
But I will say this; $1000.  won't buy any of the ones I've built.
The stock sounds like a roman nose type made in one of the townships of Pennsylvania, several makers made them but none come to mind right now. The director of LOTM specified a rifle like this with as long a barrel as possible for Daniel Day Lewis to carry. It was 46" long I believe. Even though this type rifle was not to built for another hundred years he still insisted on it. There were some made after the movie, could be one of those copies. Could be just a roman nose. Be aware, depending on your build that stock style can be extremely painful to shoot.
Photos would really help. The rifle might be something else than what I'm imagining.


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## tv_racin_fan (Jan 7, 2010)

Something like this perhaps?

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categ...catId=12&subId=81&styleId=280&partNum=AAH-556


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## headoftheholler (Jan 7, 2010)

tv_racin_fan said:


> Something like this perhaps?
> 
> http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categ...catId=12&subId=81&styleId=280&partNum=AAH-556



The stock shape is the same.  There is no patchbox or any brass embellishments, all metal on the rifle is browned.  I would assume a rifle like this is only worth what it is worth to me or anyone else.  I don't mind spending a grand on a beautiful piece of handicraft that can be passed on as a heirloom.  I am concerned with how it shoots.  I intend to hunt with it, not just a wall hanger.  What is the prurpose of the pins in the stock?


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## tv_racin_fan (Jan 7, 2010)

I'm not certain of what pins you refer. IF you mean the pins that hold the barrel and the thimbles on then that should be self explanatory. Some designs even use pins to hold the trigger and trigger guard on. Some plains rifles use wedges instead of pins and the barrel comes off easily for ease of cleaning (I myself prefer the half stocked plains rifle style with wedge). Generally back in the day the barrels were browned but not always, and generally those without any brass are what some would call a po boy or barn rifle or a working rifle.

The only way to know how a firearm like that will shoot is to shoot it and work up a load that gives either the best accuracy or the best accuracy you can get with the level of power that you want for hunting. Think on it like this, you decide you want X amount of energy from your projectile. Your most accurate load doesn't give you that energy but the load that does isn't as accurate, you would use the lighter load as your target/plinking load and the heavier slightly less accurate load for hunting.

Pay attention to how the butt of the rifle looks. Look at a modern rifle and think on how it fits into the pocket between shoulder and neck. Lots of the older designs fit onto the shoulder and not into that pocket, shoot one of them with the butt in that pocket and you learn right fast not to ever do that again.


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## Darkhorse (Jan 7, 2010)

Pins hold things to the wood. On a correctly built rifle here's how it goes; Simplest first, Ramrod pipes, look just above where the pipe fits into the RR channel and you will see either 2 holes close together or, most likely, the first and second pipe will have one hole in the stock centered on the pipe, the third or entry pipe (where the RR goes into the stock) will have 2. The pins hold the RR pipes in. Identify these carefully.
Barrel; Depending on barrel length there will be 3 or 4 pins holding the barrel on. The first one should be just in front of the first pipe, second one between the 1st & 2nd pipe and the third either between 3rd & 4th pipe or behind the entry pipe.
Most pins are approx. 1/16" You will need either a set of gunmakers punches or you can check size with a drill bit and tap them out with that. I break my drills for that purpose. You must be real careful or you can split the stock. In reality you should observe someone who knows what they are doing dissasemble the rifle the first time.
There should also be a hidden pin holding the front of the trigger guard in it's mortice.
And possibly one holding the back in also, though screws were period correct also.
The screw in the tang is your tang bolt and on a well built rifle it screws into the trigger plate. Some rifles have a wood screw here instead.
And that is what pins are for.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 7, 2010)

Sounds like a Southern Mountain rifle (a distinct style of longrifle from the southern Appalachians), most of those had browned iron hardware instead of brass. Some had a tallow hole in the stock.


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## LanceColeman (Jan 7, 2010)

Aint no sense in us trying to deliberate wether itsa kentucky, tenn, or just plain ol poboy southern mt. Not without pics. I can describe a tennessee down the road and a poboy so mo in my rack and get the same answers. almost can say the same about kentucks and some early lancasters I've laid eyes on. main thing is parts pieces, and quality. really need pics.

Your best option?? Just go shoot the rifle and see if she groups for ya. If ya likey?? buy. if no likey? don't buy.


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