# Is it possible to be 'saved' and then turn away from Christ?



## BANDERSNATCH (May 1, 2006)

Seems like the 'eternal salvation' debate centers around if it is possible to turn away from Christ after believing in Him.

Just curious as to where viewers stand...

Bandy


----------



## Dudley Do-Wrong (May 1, 2006)

Define "believe in Him".

Remember what is written in James.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (May 1, 2006)

by 'believe in Him' I mean...   that you confessed Him as Lord (at some point)  and that God raised Him from the dead.    

By James I'm assuming you are referencing being tossed about by every wind of doctrine?

bandy


----------



## FESTUSHAGGIN (May 1, 2006)

a person can be saved and lose their way.  they can live in  away that i snot pleasing unto the lord, but once you are saved noone can take that from you.


----------



## leroy (May 1, 2006)

FESTUSHAGGIN said:
			
		

> a person can be saved and lose their way.  they can live in  away that i snot pleasing unto the lord, but once you are saved noone can take that from you.




Exactly festus, like the avatar watched the marathon on tV land this weekend.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (May 1, 2006)

Just wondering who believes that someone can confess Christ, then come to a point in their life where they 'deny Christ to men'.    

Bandy


----------



## Dudley Do-Wrong (May 1, 2006)

> By James I'm assuming you are referencing being tossed about by every wind of doctrine?



No, I'm referring to James 2:19

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble


----------



## leroy (May 1, 2006)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> Just wondering who believes that someone can confess Christ, then come to a point in their life where they 'deny Christ to men'.
> 
> Bandy




Peter did 3 times.


----------



## ilikembig (May 1, 2006)

FESTUSHAGGIN said:
			
		

> a person can be saved and lose their way.  they can live in  away that i snot pleasing unto the lord, but once you are saved noone can take that from you.




I agree with that, but what about...

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven


----------



## GeauxLSU (May 1, 2006)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> Just wondering who believes that someone can confess Christ, then come to a point in their life where they 'deny Christ to men'.
> 
> Bandy


I do.  

I can't recall yesterday's scripture but basically it was "you will know them by their works."  

I don't subscribe to the definition apparently many do.  This of course starts to get into the 'can you earn your way into heaven' discussion and though I don't believe that, I do believe you can earn your way OUT of heaven.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (May 1, 2006)

God gives you the gift of Salvation, there is no way you will give it back.

Ephesians: 2:8-9

DB BB


----------



## leroy (May 1, 2006)

ilikembig said:
			
		

> I agree with that, but what about...
> 
> Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven



I  believe that is for the ones that never accept him into their heart. I think all of us have backslidden at one time or another. If you believe you can lose it do you think you can earn it back?


----------



## ilikembig (May 1, 2006)

leroy said:
			
		

> I  believe that is for the ones that never accept him into their heart. I think all of us have backslidden at one time or another. If you believe you can lose it do you think you can earn it back?





I don't believe one could lose it. I was questioning where the verse from Matthew comes into play.  Say one is saved and like some on the board research and find doubt and deny Christ to others do they still go home to live with God once they leave earth?


----------



## Double Barrel BB (May 1, 2006)

If you can loose your salvation, than you are saying it is up to you. You are saying that you have to do something to loose it. That is taking God out of your salvation.

DB BB


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (May 1, 2006)

I'm saying that, just like you choose to take God's gift, you can choose to give it back by denying that Christ is the source.    If a saved person can let Satan deceive them into believing that Jesus was not our saviour, then they are giving God's gift back..since they don't believe that eternal life comes through Him anymore.

So, someone can deny Christ before men and Christ will still confess them before the Father?

Bandy


----------



## Double Barrel BB (May 1, 2006)

No if you deny Christ, then you were not really saved in the first place. IMHO

DB BB


----------



## SBG (May 1, 2006)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> So, someone can deny Christ before men and Christ will still confess them before the Father?
> 
> Bandy



That's the confusion Bandy. A person that has been super-naturally transformed into a new creature by Jesus Christ will never deny Him before men. This is the TRUE faith that Stephen had when he looked into heaven and saw Christ standing at the right hand of God. His TRUE faith allowed him to gladly lay down his life instead of rejecting Christ. It is same faith that the apostles had. When faced with the option of denying Christ or dying a horrible death, they chose to put their trust in the resurrected Christ.

Let me pose the question to you specifically in this manner.

Can you forsee of even imagine rejecting Christ yourself?


----------



## Madsnooker (May 1, 2006)

I believe you can lose your salvation althouth I believe it is very hard.

Pual writes to Christians on many occasions about falling away etc. Also there is a place in the New Testament that speaks of having your name blotted out of the book of life. I would think that is pretty clear. It can only be blotted out if it was there. I will find it and post it.

I do agree as so many say, No one can take your salvation away but I do believe you can give it back by your works (I do not mean by stumbling).


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (May 1, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> Can you forsee of even imagine rejecting Christ yourself?



Although I've been saved since I was ~13, a few years ago I was watching PBS and saw this show about "Jesus and the early Christians" that shock my faith to the core.   First I had heard about the apocryphal gospels and other 2nd Century writings.   For a long time this really bothered me.   At that point I could have denied Him had it not been Ravi Zacharias' ministry.    The Gospel of Thomas (a gnostic gospel dated in the 2nd Century) had some really weird 'sayings' in it that I could not see Jesus saying.    Very hard to imagine denying Him now, but then it was not unimaginable for me.     

Bandy


----------



## Double Barrel BB (May 1, 2006)

Jeremiah 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." 

Matthew 7:18 "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." 

Eph. 2:1 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins." 

John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Romans 3:11 "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." 

John 3:19, "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."


----------



## Spotlite (May 1, 2006)

Ask Judas


----------



## SBG (May 1, 2006)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> Although I've been saved since I was ~13, a few years ago I was watching PBS and saw this show about "Jesus and the early Christians" that shock my faith to the core.   First I had heard about the apocryphal gospels and other 2nd Century writings.   For a long time this really bothered me.   At that point I could have denied Him had it not been Ravi Zacharias' ministry.    The Gospel of Thomas (a gnostic gospel dated in the 2nd Century) had some really weird 'sayings' in it that I could not see Jesus saying.    Very hard to imagine denying Him now, but then it was not unimaginable for me.
> 
> Bandy



Based on what you are saying then, is it possible that you weren't truly saved until you came under the preaching of the Zacharais ministry? I believe that the sensible answer must be yes.

You say now that it would be "hard to imagine." Let me present a hypothetical scenario:

The United States continues down its current path of liberalization and its rejection of Christ. The time comes that the government outlaws evangelical Christianity. You refuse to obey the law that makes it illegal to profess Christ. At the risk of death, they pose the question. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? Based on your salvation experience, would you reject Him?


----------



## SBG (May 1, 2006)

Chrisw said:
			
		

> Ask Judas



Had Judas experienced the resurrected Christ?


----------



## Double Barrel BB (May 1, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> Let me present a hypothetical scenario:
> 
> The United States continues down its current path of liberalization and its rejection of Christ. The time comes that the government outlaws evangelical Christianity. You refuse to obey the law that makes it illegal to profess Christ. At the risk of death, they pose the question. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? Based on your salvation experience, would you reject Him?




I know this wasn't my question but this is my answer.

*They would have to kill me.
*
DB BB


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (May 1, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> Based on what you are saying then, is it possible that you weren't truly saved until you came under the preaching of the Zacharais ministry? I believe that the sensible answer must be yes.
> 
> You say now that it would be "hard to imagine." Let me present a hypothetical scenario:
> 
> The United States continues down its current path of liberalization and its rejection of Christ. The time comes that the government outlaws evangelical Christianity. You refuse to obey the law that makes it illegal to profess Christ. At the risk of death, they pose the question. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? Based on your salvation experience, would you reject Him?



I would hope that I could face death confessing Him.   

There is no doubt that I was saved at 13.    As saved as any one can be.    I confessed Him publicly, believed that God raised Him from the dead...etc.    He has been my life ever since.    He has filled me with the Holy Ghost, healed me from terminal cancer, and preserved my family.    The life of faith is the life for me.   Still, for a brief time I was had serious concerns over documents that had been hidden from me.   Now, those documents mean nothing to me, and they shouldn't mean anything to anyone.   (something to keep in mind while watching the DaVinci Code...fiction)

Bandy


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (May 1, 2006)

Let me add that I believe that if a christian denies Christ in the face of death, that it is ****ing.    

The christians who died in the coliseum, could they have denied Christ to save their lives, and then later just said "Jesus, forgive me for denying you to save my own life"?

Bandy


----------



## Madsnooker (May 1, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> Based on what you are saying then, is it possible that you weren't truly saved until you came under the preaching of the Zacharais ministry? I believe that the sensible answer must be yes.
> 
> You say now that it would be "hard to imagine." Let me present a hypothetical scenario:
> 
> The United States continues down its current path of liberalization and its rejection of Christ. The time comes that the government outlaws evangelical Christianity. You refuse to obey the law that makes it illegal to profess Christ. At the risk of death, they pose the question. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? Based on your salvation experience, would you reject Him?



Although I assume Bandy will speak for himself, I'm a little confused as to why you think "maybe he wasn't saved".

I would assume, as a 13 year old, he asked Jesus into his heart and believed him to be the son of God and was saved. THAT IS ALL THAT IS REQURIED.

 I've known Bandy since he was about 16 or 17 and have always known him as a Christian. To think he went to Church every Sunday and prayed the way he did and followed after Jesus and condusted himself in the manner he always did around me would never have suggested that maybe there was still something more he needed to do to be saved. 

I think the argument that keeps surfacing that "maybe that person was never saved to start with" is week at best.

SBG, what might have been a reason Bandy might not have truly been saved at 13?


----------



## SBG (May 1, 2006)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> I would hope that I could face death confessing Him.
> 
> 
> Bandy



So, it is possible that you might reject Christ to save your life?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (May 1, 2006)

Denying Christ would have kept christians out of the coliseum.    No doubt.    Pliny the Younger stated that that is all he asked of alleged christians to keep them from dying.

Bandy


----------



## Double Barrel BB (May 1, 2006)

Madsnooker,

Do you believe that you had anything to do with your Salvation?

DB BB


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (May 1, 2006)

Oh, I see what you are asking....   sorry...

I'm saying that with God's help I would stay firm even in the face of death.      Right now, I'd say that I would die for Him, but I'm no superman either....    Fear of dying has made many people say things that they wish they hadn't.

Bandy


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (May 1, 2006)

My part in salvation is believing/confessing.    When we are saved God does not make us Zombies, with no will anymore.   We can still think for ourselves, and come to the place where we no longer believe/confess.    Or do you believe that a saved person no longer has to worry about the devil?

Bandy


----------



## Spotlite (May 1, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> Had Judas experienced the resurrected Christ?




If we can not back slide, why are there scriptures warning us against backsliding? What is the scripture for in Revelations telling us that our name could be blotted out? I am a firm believer that people can come to the Lord and never loose out. But I also know that people walk away after serving the Lord 20 years day in and day out and now living the life they live, proclaiming no salvation and saying they walked away. To hear the statement they were never saved to begin is just not acceptable, Jesus holds no bars on us, if we choose to walk away, we can and people do. Think of Job, he had the oppurtunity to do that, he chose to stay loyal to Christ. Everyone dont do that.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (May 1, 2006)

I don't worry about the devil, but that is because I was Saved by Grace when I was 6. I know that the devil will still attack me and try and make things hard on me. He has done a real good job this last year with me loosing my Mom & Dad, and a Baby. I also know that God will not put more on me than I can handle. Just because you are saved doesn't mean that the devil will leave you alone. Just ask Job.

DB BB


----------



## SBG (May 1, 2006)

Madsnooker said:
			
		

> Although I assume Bandy will speak for himself, I'm a little confused as to why you think "maybe he wasn't saved".



First of all, I pray that our discussion here, and the posts that I have made, are in no way misconstrued as being an indictment on Bandy personally, nor is a question of his salvation; it is not. It is evident from his conduct here that he is a Christian.

I tend to ask questions on here as if we were talking face to face. Obviously, a lot of the communication is lost in this format. 

I think that I will heed Brother David Mill's advice on this subject. It has been discussed over and over without anyone having their positions change. I think for the sake of friendships, I'll just back out. Perhaps it would be a better subject for the chat room.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (May 1, 2006)

SBG,   no offense taken in anything you've said.  Or anyone else for that matter.   This is just discussion.

Oh yeah, almost forgot.    I attended a Baptist church last night!   LOL    First time in a long time.   They had an outdoor service with a BBQ afterward.    I was caught up in a 'Baptist Feeding Frenzy'!

Bandy


----------



## Spotlite (May 1, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> I don't worry about the devil, but that is because I was Saved by Grace when I was 6. I know that the devil will still attack me and try and make things hard on me. He has done a real good job this last year with me loosing my Mom & Dad, and a Baby. I also know that God will not put more on me than I can handle. Just because you are saved doesn't mean that the devil will leave you alone. Just ask Job.
> 
> DB BB




I have often heard that when the devil is attacking you, you know your on the Lords side.


----------



## pbradley (May 1, 2006)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> ...if it is possible to turn away from Christ after believing in Him.
> 
> Just curious as to where viewers stand...
> 
> Bandy



been there, done that, CAME BACK!


----------



## Randy (May 1, 2006)

Lucifer did it so why wouldn't we be able to do it?


----------



## MudDucker (May 1, 2006)

I do not believe we can loose our salvation by misconduct.  However, I do believe that we can loose your salvation by later directly and freely repudiating Jesus.  This is not repudiation under threat.  I've heard of people who were Christians who later for whatever reason became devil worshippers that directly stated that the repudiated their Christian beliefs.  I believe that it is those situation that Jesus was talking about those who deny him before men.


----------



## Madsnooker (May 1, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> Madsnooker,
> 
> Do you believe that you had anything to do with your Salvation?
> 
> DB BB



Absolutely, I did not just wakeup one morning to find myself saved.

I had to first believe with my heart and then confess Jesus as my saviour. Salvation is always dependent on someones decision to follow Christ.

As far as by works. Absolutely not. It is his great GRACE that abounds.


----------



## Madsnooker (May 1, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> First of all, I pray that our discussion here, and the posts that I have made, are in no way misconstrued as being an indictment on Bandy personally, nor is a question of his salvation; it is not. It is evident from his conduct here that he is a Christian.
> 
> I tend to ask questions on here as if we were talking face to face. Obviously, a lot of the communication is lost in this format.
> 
> I think that I will heed Brother David Mill's advice on this subject. It has been discussed over and over without anyone having their positions change. I think for the sake of friendships, I'll just back out. Perhaps it would be a better subject for the chat room.



I hope I didn't imply you were judging Bandy. I enjoy our discussions and I would say we probably agree on most all issues here. 

To be honest, this topic is really irrelevant to most of us as we strive for a Godly life. I do enjoy discussing these matters in a friendly format as I view this is. I do understand that alot of times the implications are other than what is meant. 

I do understand both sides of this issue but I would just have to side with caution based on some of the New Testament scriptures.

I hope you continue to discuss such issues as I appreciate your insight.


----------



## gordon 2 (May 1, 2006)

Yes it is possible. I do it everyday. Jonas had a famous three days  bout of it!  along with the odd coniption in that place called Ninivah, we are told. Peter is said to have had a few moments. The early chuch had a few yellow livers, being some did not care to be toys for the forums.

In my case, adultry has crossed my mind a few times to be quite honest.  Now and then, my hormones still fire up my eyes when Eve shows up with her famous apples. And that is just one example.


----------



## SBG (May 1, 2006)

Madsnooker said:
			
		

> I hope I didn't imply you were judging Bandy.  .



Nooooooo! I didn't take it that way; I just wanted to make it clear I wasn't. 



> Yes it is possible. I do it everyday.



Gordon...this brings up another point to contend with. In the "fall from grace" camp, there are actually three different beliefs on the subject.

Some believe that you can come to a realization that Christ is not who the scriptures say He is. At this point, you renounce your faith and are lost.

Others believe that it is a incremental loss of faith. One day you are saved, and then, because of whatever reasons, you go back to the world. After time, you ignore the chastening of the Holy Spirit, and you are back to your original sin-state, as if you were never saved in the first place.

Then others believe that it is an individual sin thing. Any sin can separate you from God. In other words, you are saved and then you sin. Because you sinned, you are now lost again. You confess your sin to God, now you are saved again.

Just some food for thought.


----------



## Flintlock1776 (Aug 7, 2006)

*I agree*



			
				BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> Seems like the 'eternal salvation' debate centers around if it is possible to turn away from Christ after believing in Him.
> 
> Just curious as to where viewers stand...
> 
> Bandy




You got to stay in touch and keep working on it. Life ain't easy but staying on the right side has its latter rewards.


----------



## Tn_Extreme (Aug 7, 2006)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> Just wondering who believes that someone can confess Christ, then come to a point in their life where they 'deny Christ to men'.
> 
> Bandy


Several of the apostles denied Christ before men when they were questioned shortly after the crucifixion.

One cannot lose their salvation...You can become cold, complaceant, and indifferent to the church and God but you can never lose your salvation if  it is real. The Bible says itis a fire that cannot be hidden.  

Those who are "saved" and then fall back into their sinful lifestyle and feel no remorse or condemnation were never saved in the first place.

The Bile says I am sealed and hid in him. No man can luck me from his hand. I am a new creature...Old things are passed away, all thing become new.  I still fight with the outer man and the flesh daily, and sometimes it wins, the difference is I know it is wrong and in my heart the new man inside me struggles to overide my outer man.
'I am not perfect but strive for perfection..I wont be perfect until christ gives me my new body and no sin willcross my mind.


----------



## Foxfire (Aug 7, 2006)

For answers to your questions.

www.whataboutjesus.com


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Aug 7, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:
			
		

> Those who are "saved" and then fall back into their sinful lifestyle and feel no remorse or condemnation were never saved in the first place.




Interesting.... 

So if someone was 'saved' and left their 'sinful lifestyle', but then later on decided Jesus wasn't God and didn't die for their sins, but they didn't go back to their 'sinful lifestyle', then in your opinion they are still 'saved'?   


And in response to SBG's post that says it is evident from Bandy's actions on here that he is a Christian... I just want to let you know that 5 years ago, you probably would have said the same thing about me... so you can't always judge a book by it's cover!!     (not intended to be in any way related to Bandy's character... just a general comment about 'acting' Christian)


----------



## Tn_Extreme (Aug 7, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Interesting....
> 
> So if someone was 'saved' and left their 'sinful lifestyle', but then later on decided Jesus wasn't God and didn't die for their sins, but they didn't go back to their 'sinful lifestyle', then in your opinion they are still 'saved'?


DD, Your s lost as a ball in high weeds...When someone gets saved it is a permanent thing...they cant forget who Jesus is because he loves inside of them. They have a inner man that cintrols and directs their lives...yes we can seem to forget and not listen to it at times but in noway can we laster decide Jesus isnt who he said he was.

If we do it is evidence the profession was false and not real and genuine.
Simple Bible 101.

DD...The Bible says those who arent saved cant begin to understand the simple plan of salvation laid out for us by Jesus Christ...Why not submit to  it instead of rebel against it??  Dont you see you are only  harming yourself and those you have influence over ??


----------



## Dixie Dawg (Aug 8, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:
			
		

> DD, Your s lost as a ball in high weeds...When someone gets saved it is a permanent thing...they cant forget who Jesus is because he loves inside of them. They have a inner man that cintrols and directs their lives...yes we can seem to forget and not listen to it at times but in noway can we laster decide Jesus isnt who he said he was.
> 
> If we do it is evidence the profession was false and not real and genuine.
> Simple Bible 101.
> ...



Been there, done that... didn't work for me.

I guess then, if what you are saying is true, it would have been better for me to have died 5 years ago when I still believed in Jesus with 100% of my heart and soul.  Sure, I had questions, most Christians do.  But I would have died for it. In fact I remember sitting my daughter down on her bed 6 years ago and telling her that we needed to be strong in Jesus and that if anyone ever came at us and threatened to kill us for believing in him, we had to tell the truth and say we believed in him.  And I meant every word of it.  Looking back now, that is one of the most shameful things as a parent I have ever done, and I have apologized to my daughter for ever having said that to her.  I truly believe I was brainwashed... programmed.  32 years of being a Christian, well, I was never perfect but dang, I sure DID believe, regardless of what you or anyone else says.  I can't think of many things a person would be willing to give their life for if they didn't truly believe it.  All those altar calls I went up for, starting at age 9, gosh, hard to believe I didn't really 'mean' it at age 9, actually kind of sad, really, that a 9-year old who went up to the pastor in tears with love and gratitude and who believed they just got 'saved' really wasn't 'saved' at all.... never would have thought that God would mess with the emotions of a child like that... but since you say so, must be true, right?

Anyway, back to your question....     How can you submit yourself to something you don't really believe anymore? I'm pretty sure God would know in your heart you weren't being honest.  I could attend church every Sunday and Wednesday for the rest of my life, do you honestly think that will please God if I don't really believe in it?  

I guess it's possible I have turned into one of God's 'reprobates'... but I've not participated in sodomy or homosexuality.... what else was on your list of unforgiveable/reprobatable sins?    Maybe I did one of those and didn't realize it.....


----------



## rocket rob (Aug 8, 2006)

First of all we are all born sinners form the seed of adam.If you truly belived that jesus is the son of god and the holy gost and the father than you were saved. Can you back slide, yes you can and if you die before asking the lord to for give you you will burn but once your saved your always saved you may back slide but if you ask for forgiveness than your are for given.Go and sin no more. You must try and follow jesus. Jesus was pure, God sent him he was not from the seed of adam. The devel is strong and rules this earth he wants you to turn away from our lord. I am a sinner just like you would i die for him I shurly hope i could. We are all going to die today maybe tomarrow we dont know when. If you turn away for God then do you turn to the devil or do you not belive in him any more either. You can not work your way into heven If you do good deads and dont go around bringing about what you did than you will recive your rewards in heaven. No sin is greater than another. You have to try your best to follow jesus and turn away from your sin the devil knows where your weakness is. Turn to the lord and ask for forgiveness for he has not left you he will never leave you trust in him. May God bless us all........


----------



## SBG (Aug 8, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Interesting....
> 
> So if someone was 'saved' and left their 'sinful lifestyle', but then later on decided Jesus wasn't God and didn't die for their sins, but they didn't go back to their 'sinful lifestyle', then in your opinion they are still 'saved'?
> 
> ...



I dunno about that. I have spiritual discernment that you cannot understand.

I don't mean that to be mean to you...there really ain't no other way to say it.


----------



## Jody Hawk (Aug 8, 2006)

I was saved in 1993 and went to church every Sunday. I started putting other things ahead of the Lord. It got to the point that instead of getting my family ready to go to church on Sunday morning, I'd get up and head to the woods or lake. Before I knew it, I was living a life style no better than the one that I was living before I was saved. I can remember laying in bed at night and looking at the ceiling and asking the Lord to make me right again. I started going back to church last October and I gave my testimony at church one night and called Katelyn up there and appologized to her for the "wasted years" that I didn't take her to church and I promised her that we'd never leave the church again. I'm gonna keep that promise too !!!!


----------



## leroy (Aug 8, 2006)

rocket rob said:
			
		

> First of all we are all born sinners form the seed of adam.If you truly belived that jesus is the son of god and the holy gost and the father than you were saved. Can you back slide, yes you can and if you die before asking the lord to for give you you will burn but once your saved your always saved you may back slide but if you ask for forgiveness than your are for given.Go and sin no more. You must try and follow jesus. Jesus was pure, God sent him he was not from the seed of adam. The devel is strong and rules this earth he wants you to turn away from our lord. I am a sinner just like you would i die for him I shurly hope i could. We are all going to die today maybe tomarrow we dont know when. If you turn away for God then do you turn to the devil or do you not belive in him any more either. You can not work your way into heven If you do good deads and dont go around bringing about what you did than you will recive your rewards in heaven. No sin is greater than another. You have to try your best to follow jesus and turn away from your sin the devil knows where your weakness is. Turn to the lord and ask for forgiveness for he has not left you he will never leave you trust in him. May God bless us all........





this would mean that to get into Heaven You would have to ask forgiveness for every single sin that you comit. I hope I have ask forgiveness but I'm sure there are some that were missed.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 8, 2006)

leroy said:
			
		

> this would mean that to get into Heaven You would have to ask forgiveness for every single sin that you comit. I hope I have ask forgiveness but I'm sure there are some that were missed.




Yes you would, and this the reason David said search my heart.



Now if you dont believe you can backslide, read 1 Corinthians 9: 23 -27. After all the preaching, if Paul had to keep his body under subjection lest he became a castaway himself. How could that happen?


----------



## rocket rob (Aug 8, 2006)

leroy said:
			
		

> this would mean that to get into Heaven You would have to ask forgiveness for every single sin that you comit. I hope I have ask forgiveness but I'm sure there are some that were missed.


We sin every day. We need to ask for forgiveness all through the day. People take this for granted every day.  How meny times have you heard some one say help me lord out loud, just another saying to them. If your hart is right and you know if its right or not then you will enter into heven. If you comit the same sin over and over than your hart is not right. You have to fight the demons every day. No sin is greater than another sin  repent and try not to comit that sin again. Jesus knows you and your hart. No one said it is going to be easy as a matter of fact it gets harder. You are living in the devils world and fighting his demons every day. Pray, Pray and Pray. we were born a sinner into sin. Ask for forgivness every day say your prayers. If you comit a sin that feeling inside that saying this is wrong is the holly gost, ask for forgivness and keep fighting the demons....


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Aug 8, 2006)

Pray without ceasing.


DB BB


----------



## FESTUSHAGGIN (Aug 8, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> Based on what you are saying then, is it possible that you weren't truly saved until you came under the preaching of the Zacharais ministry? I believe that the sensible answer must be yes.
> 
> You say now that it would be "hard to imagine." Let me present a hypothetical scenario:
> 
> The United States continues down its current path of liberalization and its rejection of Christ. The time comes that the government outlaws evangelical Christianity. You refuse to obey the law that makes it illegal to profess Christ. At the risk of death, they pose the question. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? Based on your salvation experience, would you reject Him?


look at what happened to shadrach mishak and abendnego(sp?)  nebuchadnezzar asked them to deny God and worship his idol that he had created.  when thet denied to worship an idol they were thrown into a fiery furnace.  they were unharmed because they were protected by the power of God.  if i was asked to deny god or be killed yes i may die but i would not deny him.  if it is his wish that i die upholding his name then so be it.  because i guarantee that if you do deny him you are no safer from death than you were if you didnt deny him.  some people say that is a tough call to make but i would not even have to flinch.  i would very proudly die for my god.  there is no greater love than to give your life for a friend.  i consider God to be my best friend so why not die for him if it were required.


----------



## Bones (Aug 9, 2006)

There is a difference between head knowledge and having Christ in your heart.  Head knowledge does not save you only having Jesus Christ in your heart will.

Bones


----------



## SBG (Aug 9, 2006)

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


----------



## Flintlock1776 (Aug 10, 2006)

I don't know. They evil ones never rest and the assualt can be constant. Since we are not perfect if someone slipped I would not condem them as I am not the final judge. Maybe just better to put your hand out and help up the one who slipped.


----------



## Hunting Teacher (Aug 13, 2006)

John 10:27-29
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My father who has given them to me is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my father's hand.

Romans 8:29-30
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined he also called, those he called he also justified, those he justified he also glorified.

Madsnooker,
I believe the bible teaches that God drew you to Him through the Holy Spirit. God was the author of our salvation. We didn't choose him, he chose us.

Can anyone who has truly experienced the life changing salvation of Jesus Christ say that anything would seperate you from him?
Teacher


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 14, 2006)

Hunting Teacher said:
			
		

> Can anyone who has truly experienced the life changing salvation of Jesus Christ say that anything would seperate you from him?
> Teacher


SIN will, sin is of the devil.

He also went as far as saying, IF you sin, you have an advocate to go to the Father for us.

I know that no man can pluck you out of his hand, but you yourself can walk away. Then there are those that would say, "they were never really saved to start with". I cant judge that, only that person and God knows that.

I think in James, we are told to help the fallen Brother, the one that has erred in his way?

What about being "lukewarm"? Jesus said either be hot or cold, but if your "lukewarm" I will spue you out.

What about the talents? The one that hid his, God cursed him and cast him out.

Those are a few things that can seperate you.


----------



## SBG (Aug 14, 2006)

Hunting Teacher said:
			
		

> John 10:27-29
> My sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My father who has given them to me is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my father's hand.
> 
> Romans 8:29-30
> ...



Great post! 

And to answer your question...no.

A "truly" saved person cannot lose their salvation. The debt that is required of all because of sin, has been paid by a loving God. 

Romans 4:8                                                                      Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Pretty simple biblical truth. 

Thank God for the simplicity of His gospel and the power of His promises.


----------



## RPD#99 (Aug 15, 2006)

One can forfeit their salvation.  Paul writes about it in most of his writings.  Hebrews says that it can be forfeited.  Romans says the same thing; especially in chapters 11-12.  

Salvation can not be lost!  The same way you are saved is the same way you forfeit it.  By believing/having faith and confessing, a person is saved.  Therefore by refusing to not believe/have faith after salvation and confess that Jesus is not Lord, is how you forfeit your salvation.  When your earthly father gives you a gift, you can keep it and cherish it or you can throw it away and no longer want it.  It's the same way with your Heavenly Father!  You can enjoy the gift or throw it away once it is given.  Why someone would do either is unexplainable!  God has not removed our "free will" once we are born again.  We still have the ultimate and final say in our lives.  If we don't want Him before or after salvation, He will not force us to believe on Him.  He will certainly not force us into Heaven if we do not want to go!  His love will reach out to us as we cross over into pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie.  But, the decision is ours.  Nothing shall separate us from the *love of God *but *sin will separate us from God!    *  Sin is unbelief...a refusing to believe.  Paul said that "which is not of faith is sin."  Nothing has separated the lost from God's love and nothing will separate us from His love.  He loves both equally.  But the lost is separated from God through sin.  The same is true for us.  If we renounce the name of Christ and the finished work of the Blood, we shall be separated from Him, but not His love. 


This is a debate that I have had countless times.  My personal "study" of the Word has taught me these truths.  I do not believe what I believe simply because someone else believes it or says that it is so.  I study the Word for myself.  I do not read a passage of scripture alone to make a case.  I take in the whole counsel of the Word.  Using a single obscure verse, or even two, on either side of the coin proves no ones case.  I also do not subscribe to a Church doctrine or Tenet of faith just to believe what it may say.  If I can not find a scriptural basis for whatever the issue may be, I disregard it.      

I also do not allow strife to come into play when looking at issues as this one.  I will discuss my viewpoint and love you if you disagree!


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 16, 2006)

RPD#99 said:
			
		

> One can forfeit their salvation.  Paul writes about it in most of his writings.  Hebrews says that it can be forfeited.  Romans says the same thing; especially in chapters 11-12.
> 
> Salvation can not be lost!  The same way you are saved is the same way you forfeit it.  By believing/having faith and confessing, a person is saved.  Therefore by refusing to not believe/have faith after salvation and confess that Jesus is not Lord, is how you forfeit your salvation.  When your earthly father gives you a gift, you can keep it and cherish it or you can throw it away and no longer want it.  It's the same way with your Heavenly Father!  You can enjoy the gift or throw it away once it is given.  Why someone would do either is unexplainable!  God has not removed our "free will" once we are born again.  We still have the ultimate and final say in our lives.  If we don't want Him before or after salvation, He will not force us to believe on Him.  He will certainly not force us into Heaven if we do not want to go!  His love will reach out to us as we cross over into pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie.  But, the decision is ours.  Nothing shall separate us from the *love of God *but *sin will separate us from God!    *  Sin is unbelief...a refusing to believe.  Paul said that "which is not of faith is sin."  Nothing has separated the lost from God's love and nothing will separate us from His love.  He loves both equally.  But the lost is separated from God through sin.  The same is true for us.  If we renounce the name of Christ and the finished work of the Blood, we shall be separated from Him, but not His love.
> 
> ...


Good post, and Paul even went as far as saying after all he has done, he could become a cast away himself. If people think they can not sin after salvation, Jesus said to them that know to do good and they do it not, to them it is sin. No where did he seperate sinner and saint in that scripture. With the love of God in your heart, you are not going to want to rob, steal and the things that stand out shamefully. We were told to strive, endure and David even prayed search my heart. The story of the ten virgins is a good story to read. I know no man can pluck you out of his hand, very true, satan could not touch Job unless God allowed it, but Job had every opportunity to curse God.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 16, 2006)

Hunting Teacher said:
			
		

> Can anyone who has truly experienced the life changing salvation of Jesus Christ say that anything would seperate you from him?
> Teacher


I already quoted this before but I left out something.

Matthew 10:33
"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father........."


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Aug 16, 2006)

Spotlite said:
			
		

> I already quoted this before but I left out something.
> 
> Matthew 10:33
> "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father........."




I believe that a Truely Saved person would never deny Christ, in any situation.

DB BB


----------



## SBG (Aug 16, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> I believe that a Truely Saved person would never deny Christ, in any situation.
> 
> DB BB




I can only speak of my personal salvation experience. After feeling the Holy Spirit speak to my spirit, and having no doubt that Jesus Christ is indeed who He says He is; there is no possible way that I would ever deny Him in my heart.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 

I don't mean to offend with this next statement; but, I feel led to post this. In consideration of the text that I have provided above, how could anyone that has TRULY been born again by the grace of God, turn away and reject him, and by doing so, lose their salvation?

The text says plainly that God Himself speaks to our spirit that we are his child. He doesn't say we might be. He says we are!

Someone that has experienced that, and then reject it, must be insane. Literally


----------



## PWalls (Aug 16, 2006)

I believe that a Saved Person will sin. I also believe that a Saved Person can be seperated from God. However, that seperation is only in a relational aspect. Nothing can take you from God's hand once your name is written in the Book. Your sin will seperate you from the joy of a relationship but not from an eternal paradise.

Jesus died once for sin. Jesus died once so that I might have eternal life. If you believe that you can lose your salvation, then what do you do, ask Jesus into your heart again? Implicate that His sacrifice wasn't sufficeint the first time?


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 16, 2006)

*...*

Christians are not perfect...just forgiven and saved through the Saviour.

This holds true regardless of what any worldly zealot will tell someone that does not believe exactly as they do....I think the zealots are the ones that will pay the ultimate price through their lack of understanding that God never said that everyone must believe exactly the same or they will got to an eternity of fire....

I have often found that my spirituality and salvation is a personal matter to me and that ANYONE of this world telling me that I am wrong is merely speculating on what they think God intended....

God will have final say....


----------



## Hunting Teacher (Aug 16, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> I can only speak of my personal salvation experience. After feeling the Holy Spirit speak to my spirit, and having no doubt that Jesus Christ is indeed who He says He is; there is no possible way that I would ever deny Him in my heart.
> 
> Romans 8:16
> The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
> ...



Amen, SBG!
Well stated. Backed up by scripture!
teacher


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 16, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> I can only speak of my personal salvation experience. After feeling the Holy Spirit speak to my spirit, and having no doubt that Jesus Christ is indeed who He says He is; there is no possible way that I would ever deny Him in my heart.
> 
> Romans 8:16
> The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
> ...


True, but what happens when a "truly" saved person walks up out of anger and kills someone before he has time to think. Does not repent of that murder and dies? As far as the "truly" saved person, that is almost like being pregnant, either you are or your not.   

But we are still in the flesh, and was told to anger but sin not. So we are above and beyond not getting all upset over something.

But that same spirit that draws us to an alter will again p r i c k our hearts and warn us, guide us and even convict us from sinning. But Jesus said "IF" you sin, you have an advocate to go to the Father for you.

Had to type p r i c k that way because it came up as pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie every time


----------



## FESTUSHAGGIN (Aug 16, 2006)

you have to understand that the outward man and th einner man are two different beings.  the outward man is not saved and never will be saved.  it will turn to dust.  the inner man is where salvation lies.  and once that inner man is saved he will sin no more.  sin is of the flesh and the outward man can and will sin daily.  if you go kill someone it is the outward man that sins.  once saved you will go to heaven.  yes you can fall away from god.  but if you were truly saved, and you will know, you will ALWAYS be saved.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 16, 2006)

FESTUSHAGGIN said:
			
		

> you have to understand that the outward man and th einner man are two different beings.  the outward man is not saved and never will be saved.  it will turn to dust.  the inner man is where salvation lies.  and once that inner man is saved he will sin no more.  sin is of the flesh and the outward man can and will sin daily.  if you go kill someone it is the outward man that sins.  once saved you will go to heaven.  yes you can fall away from god.  but if you were truly saved, and you will know, you will ALWAYS be saved.


Thats not scripture, are you saying you can murder and not repent and still make it?


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 16, 2006)

Was the story of the ten virgins just something to overlook? They didnt keep their lamps full.
What about the talents?
What about being lukewarm?
What about Pauls writings, restoring a fallen brother?
What about Paul himself, after doing all he had done, could become a castaway himself?

There would be no need to go back to church, no need to be a soul winner, pay tithes, and keep his commandments or even study the Bible if all you had to do was get saved and that was it. There would even be a need for the Great White Throne Judgement. Would not have to give an account for every deed or word. You could just say I was saved and I can scoot right on thru. I mean the sinners aint gonna make the rapture to begin with right?


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 16, 2006)

*...*



			
				Spotlite said:
			
		

> There would be no need to go back to church, no need to be a soul winner, pay tithes, and keep his commandments or even study the Bible if all you had to do was get saved and that was it. There would even be a need for the Great White Throne Judgement. Would not have to give an account for every deed or word. You could just say I was saved and I can scoot right on thru. I mean the sinners aint gonna make the rapture to begin with right?


 
But I thought that salvation through Christ washed our sins away and they are forgiven.  Additionally, I thought that even though saved, it is a given you will still sin while in this world...and that through prayer we continually ask for forgiveness of sins.  Is this not so?  After salvation, are we all building up a big account of sins for which we will pay?  Was the price that Jesus paid a one shot deal?

I have always been taught that once you have accepted Christ as your Saviour then the Kingdom of Heaven is yours and it will never be taken away.  Of course you must continuously repent your sins and you will answer to God in the end.  I have also always been taught that blasphemy (sp?) is the only unforgiveable sin...

Certainly, even though saved, I sin...we all do...I was taught there was only ever one person to walk the Earth that was free from sin....I think the salvation and subsequent life we lead comes into play in our conscience and the content thereof....

Any insight is welcomed on ANYONE'S worldly interpretation of God's intent.

Thanks.


----------



## SBG (Aug 16, 2006)

Spotlite said:
			
		

> True, but what happens when a "truly" saved person walks up out of anger and kills someone before he has time to think. Does not repent of that murder and dies? As far as the "truly" saved person, that is almost like being pregnant, either you are or your not.
> 
> But we are still in the flesh, and was told to anger but sin not. So we are above and beyond not getting all upset over something.
> 
> ...



Chris, your for instance would prove that the person was not truly saved. Would a person that is equipped with the fruits of the Spirit walk up and murder someone?
If they could/would they did not have the same salvation experiene that I had. 

I will not limit God by my shortcomings. I will not consider His blood an unholy thing. 

If one unconfessed sin can separate you from God, then His yoke is certainly not easy nor His burden light. And surely all things would not work together for the good of someone that could with one misstep lose their salvation.

Please PRAYERFULLY read the 8th chapter of Romans.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 16, 2006)

pfharris1965 said:
			
		

> But I thought that salvation through Christ washed our sins away and they are forgiven.  Additionally, I thought that even though saved, it is a given you will still sin while in this world...and that through prayer we continually ask for forgiveness of sins.  Is this not so?  After salvation, are we all building up a big account of sins for which we will pay?  Was the price that Jesus paid a one shot deal?
> 
> I have always been taught that once you have accepted Christ as your Saviour then the Kingdom of Heaven is yours and it will never be taken away.  Of course you must continuously repent your sins and you will answer to God in the end.  I have also always been taught that blasphemy (sp?) is the only unforgiveable sin...
> 
> ...


The whole point of this debate is some believe you can sin afterwards and still make it without repenting. Sure we are all going to sin at some point, we are human. It only takes a minute to say God Im sorry. Some believe that you can not literally sin at all after salvation.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 16, 2006)

*....*



			
				Spotlite said:
			
		

> The whole point of this debate is some believe you can sin afterwards and still make it without repenting. Sure we are all going to sin at some point, we are human. It only takes a minute to say God Im sorry. Some believe that you can not literally sin at all after salvation.


 
I think you and I are on the same page then...maybe not....

IMHO, Sin will continue regardless of a Saved or Not Saved status....

In addition to Salvation, asking forgiveness and remaining aware of God as a presence and a guiding force is the key.  I guess repenting is what I am saying...Anyone that thinks they do not or cannot sin after salvation is mistaken IMHO.

If they were not mistaken then that would mean that everyone who is saved and sinned in their eyes is not saved at all...I have known and do know many "Christian" individuals that sin....

Maybe I am just a novice here, but I have comfort in my Salvation and that is bteween me and God not me and a human....any human that sits in judgement of another human is sinning IMHO....


----------



## SBG (Aug 16, 2006)

pfharris1965 said:
			
		

> But I thought that salvation through Christ washed our sins away and they are forgiven.  Additionally, I thought that even though saved, it is a given you will still sin while in this world...and that through prayer we continually ask for forgiveness of sins.  Is this not so?  After salvation, are we all building up a big account of sins for which we will pay?  Was the price that Jesus paid a one shot deal?
> 
> I have always been taught that once you have accepted Christ as your Saviour then the Kingdom of Heaven is yours and it will never be taken away.  Of course you must continuously repent your sins and you will answer to God in the end.  I have also always been taught that blasphemy (sp?) is the only unforgiveable sin...
> 
> ...



Thanks Phil...great post.

One thing that I might point out. When a believer sins God does not require him to ask for forgiveness. All God requires is that we CONFESS our sins.

Unfortunately, Churches today are not teaching the Biblical truth of imputation. We have been imputed with the righteousness of Christ. Christ cannot sin, so we cannot have sin counted against us.

Romans 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Since sin has been defeated by the finished work of Christ at calvary, God will never again place the debt of sin on our account.

Sin will definitely affect our communion and relationship with the Lord, but it will never be able to separate a truly born again believer fron Him.

All believers will one day stand before God at the judgment seat of Christ. Only the lost will stand before God at the Great White Throne Judgment.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 16, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> Chris, your for instance would prove that the person was not truly saved. Would a person that is equipped with the fruits of the Spirit walk up and murder someone?
> If they could/would they did not have the same salvation experiene that I had.
> 
> I will not limit God by my shortcomings. I will not consider His blood an unholy thing.
> ...


Truly saved? God does not do anything half hearted, either they are or not. 
Do we tear out parts of the Bible that tell us if we sin, we have an advocate?
Do we throw Pauls writings out completely. Sure his yoke is easy and his burden is light.
His spirit will keep us, if we listen. That is the good part about his grace, if we mess up, we have an advocate. That sacrifice has been made and through the Blood Of Jesus, he will cover our sins. 
As I said before, if you were saved in that manner, there would be no need for judgement day. What accounts could you give, they are all gone from the day of salvation back, covered under the blood, its the ones from that day forward.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 16, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> One thing that I might point out. When a believer sins God does not require him to ask for forgiveness. All God requires is that we CONFESS our sins.


Where is that found?

Saying Im a killer is not being sorry for it.


----------



## SBG (Aug 16, 2006)

Spotlite said:
			
		

> Truly saved? God does not do anything half hearted, either they are or not.
> Do we tear out parts of the Bible that tell us if we sin, we have an advocate?
> Do we throw Pauls writings out completely. Sure his yoke is easy and his burden is light.
> His spirit will keep us, if we listen. That is the good part about his grace, if we mess up, we have an advocate. That sacrifice has been made and through the Blood Of Jesus, he will cover our sins.
> As I said before, if you were saved in that manner, there would be no need for judgement day. What accounts could you give, they are all gone from the day of salvation back, covered under the blood, its the ones from that day forward.



Chris, you read to much into posts that isn't there. Truly saved is exactly what it says. A person that has been supernaturally transformed by God, and made a new creature. This is contrasted by the ones that have been deceived into believing that they are saved.

Judgment day is for the lost. The TRUE believer has been spared the wrath of God. The TRULY saved will give an account at the judgment seat of Christ. Two totally different occurrences.


----------



## SBG (Aug 16, 2006)

Spotlite said:
			
		

> Where is that found?
> 
> Saying Im a killer is not being sorry for it.



Again...you are reading things into something stuggling to make it fit your views.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 16, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> Again...you are reading things into something stuggling to make it fit your views.
> 
> 1 John 1:9
> If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness


Fair enough, but I thought you have said a truly saved person cant sin?

Your saying this scripture applies to a believer having to not ask for forgiveness, but only confess, right?


----------



## PWalls (Aug 16, 2006)

We already know that the Lord will forgive us of our sins. He has said so in His Word.

What we have to do is confess our sins. Confession is an acknowledgement of wrongdoing and a committment to repentence and turning away from that sin. If you do not repent or have a heart committed to turning from that sin, then you are not truly confessing it to God. 1John 1:9 is one of the best verses in Scripture, but if the confession is not heartfelt and true, then the rest of that verse isn't going to mean anything.

That is what SBG is implying, I believe. Please correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## SBG (Aug 16, 2006)

Spotlite said:
			
		

> Fair enough, but I thought you have said a truly saved person cant sin?



No..I've never said that a truly saved person cannot sin...and I hope that I didn't type in such a way as for someone to believe that.



			
				Spotlite said:
			
		

> Your saying this scripture applies to a believer having to not ask for forgiveness, but only confess, right?



Yes. When a believer confesses (acknowledgeds) their sin, God forgives them for their disobedience and restores their fellowship not their salvation.


----------



## PWalls (Aug 16, 2006)

Spotlite said:
			
		

> His spirit will keep us, if we listen. That is the good part about his grace, if we mess up, we have an advocate. That sacrifice has been made and through the Blood Of Jesus, he will cover our sins.




Yes, Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for all times, all men and all sin. The advocacy that He performs for us at the right side of God is a relational and daily advocacy. He is not sitting there pleading with God to "re-save" us when we sin all the time. That was done once and for all. He advocates to the Father for us to listen to our prayers and answer our prayers and restore us to a right relationship with the Father when we sin.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 16, 2006)

*...*

Man, I have to say this is a good thread and very thought provoking....

Thanks to all of you....


----------



## Randy (Aug 16, 2006)

And the pole is 50/50!  I don't feel like the lone ranger now.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 16, 2006)

*...*



			
				Randy said:
			
		

> And the pole is 50/50! I don't feel like the lone ranger now.


 
  So for once your opinion appears correct no matter what it is....  (that is if we use the broad assumption on here that an OPINION is right or wrong...)

Now on the issue of scopes on muzzleloaders....  (ONLY A JOKE AND NOT INTENDED FOR FURTHER COMMENT)


----------



## FESTUSHAGGIN (Aug 16, 2006)

Spotlite said:
			
		

> Thats not scripture, are you saying you can murder and not repent and still make it?


the only sin that is unforgiveable is blasphemy and that is simply unbelief.  yes your actions on this earth will have consequences but if you murder someone and you have been saved that will not keep you out of heaven.  no sin is worse than the other.  sin is sin.  accept of course the sin of balsphemy.  give me a little time and ill back it up with book.  right now im at work and dont have time to look it up.


----------



## Randy (Aug 16, 2006)

THunter said:
			
		

> That's why Peter did it.  After someone is saved they can get far enough away from God they'll do anything, but they are still saved.  One of Satan's most powerful influences over Christians is he uses the fact that once saved you're always saved to lead you to believe you can do anything you want and get forgiveness for it.  That is true, yet the things you do in that condition may lead someone very dear to you, possibly even your children, to reject Christ and die lost.  I believe that before they leave this world, they will come to that realization.  The realization that your refusal to let Christ guide your life has cost your children their's is the ultimate punishment and one that must be suffered in this life, as for a saved person, once they die there is no more punishment.
> 
> THunter



I really wish I believed like that but I would be one of those guys that believes I could do anything and get forgivness for it.  Yes knowing others might suffer for my sins might bother me but I'd also know one day I would not have that pain.   On second thought, I am glad I don't believe that way.


----------



## PWalls (Aug 16, 2006)

I believe in OSAS. I believe I will still sin even though I am a Christian. I believe that Jesus is sitting at God's right hand and even now intercedes and advocates for me to the Father by asking Him to listen to my prayers and to restore me to a good father/son relationship with Him when I do confess those sins. I believe that I will go to Heaven regardless of what sin I committ (short of blashpemy, which of course I can't imagine myself doing). I believe that Jesus has already paid the price for those sins. I believe that my sin on this earth will affect my rewards in Heaven. I believe that I try to live this life on earth with the express purpose of having the Lord look at me on judgement day and say "Well done my good and faithful servant". I believe that I will be ashamed on the day that I have to give an account and explain why He doesn't say the above as readliy as He could have.


----------



## Randy (Aug 16, 2006)

PWalls said:
			
		

> I believe that I will go to Heaven regardless of what sin I committ (short of blashpemy, which of course I can't imagine myself doing).



But since you are saved you are always saved so blasphemy away!!!  I am kidding of course but If you believe in OSAS then even if you blasphem you are assured of Heaven right.  Although He may not speak to you when you get there (kidding agian).


----------



## Randy (Aug 16, 2006)

Woodswalker said:
			
		

> temptation has sucked me into the discussion.
> 
> we've touched on the sins of commission and the equal or greater sins of omission, seems like.
> 
> without getting too deep into the Greek, let's just say that God himself will also likely offer himself up for a scrupulous discussion when we all get there.



You know I wish I felt like that might happen too.  But my belief is that all we will do is bath in His glory and worship Him.  Any and all questions we have/had will have been done away with.  It won't matter anymore.


----------



## PWalls (Aug 16, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> But since you are saved you are always saved so blasphemy away!!!  I am kidding of course but If you believe in OSAS then even if you blasphem you are assured of Heaven right.  Although He may not speak to you when you get there (kidding agian).




The sin of Blasphemy is the constant rejection of the Holy Spirit and the conviction that It brings when trying to get you to a point of acceptance of Christ. You keep denying and denying until one day the offer is fully withdrawn and you are truly lost. I believe that Christian can not committ this sin. So, yes, I believe in OSAS, but I also believe that once you are saved, you couldn't committ this sin anyway.


----------



## Randy (Aug 16, 2006)

Woodswalker said:
			
		

> Well, Brother Randy, i will say this about that, if'n folks who wind up there are deeply disappointed about the lack of gold streets, can they go back?



No but they won't want to either.


----------



## Randy (Aug 16, 2006)

PWalls said:
			
		

> I believe that I will go to Heaven regardless of what sin I committ (short of blashpemy, which of course I can't imagine myself doing).



I was just lead to believe that you felt you might not go to heaven even though you are saved if you committed blasphemy based on your above past statement.


----------



## PWalls (Aug 16, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> I was just lead to believe that you felt you might not go to heaven even though you are saved if you committed blasphemy based on your above past statement.



Sorry for the confrusion.


----------



## Tn_Extreme (Aug 17, 2006)

OSAS here...The Bible teaches that, NOWHERE in the Bible do you find people that were once saved and lose their salvation in this dispensation of grace.

We can get cold, indifferent, and away from God but we cant lose our salvation. We have a restrainer indwelling within our heart to keep us on track and aert us to when we are doing contrary to Gods will.

If you can hob nob with the world and sinners, partake of their filth and sins and feel no condemnation within your heart for doing so, it is a good sign you arent really saved.


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 17, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:
			
		

> OSAS here...The Bible teaches that, NOWHERE in the Bible do you find people that were once saved and lose their salvation in this dispensation of grace.
> 
> We can get cold, indifferent, and away from God but we cant lose our salvation. We have a restrainer indwelling within our heart to keep us on track and aert us to when we are doing contrary to Gods will.
> 
> If you can hob nob with the world and sinners, partake of their filth and sins and feel no condemnation within your heart for doing so, it is a good sign you arent really saved.



That'll preach


----------



## leroy (Aug 17, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:
			
		

> OSAS here...The Bible teaches that, NOWHERE in the Bible do you find people that were once saved and lose their salvation in this dispensation of grace.
> 
> We can get cold, indifferent, and away from God but we cant lose our salvation. We have a restrainer indwelling within our heart to keep us on track and aert us to when we are doing contrary to Gods will.
> 
> If you can hob nob with the world and sinners, partake of their filth and sins and feel no condemnation within your heart for doing so, it is a good sign you arent really saved.




I think this is true but I think the longer you stay away from God on a wrong path the harder your heart becomes till you no longer feel the conviction.


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 17, 2006)

In discussing this subject, we ought to consider very seriously the rewards of a godly life...

and I'm not talking about in this life either:

1 Corinthians 15:19
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

And I'm not suggesting that such life is the door to heaven (Christ already paid for that, provided you trust Him for same).

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 

11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 

12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 

13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 

14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 

15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


----------



## Hunting Teacher (Aug 17, 2006)

THunter said:
			
		

> To clear up, the sin blasphemy is the rejection of Christ, period.  A truly saved person cannot reject Christ.   Someone that could get to that point is not truly saved.
> 
> To add another thought.  True acceptance happens in the heart, a personal relationship between man and God.  Just the same blasphemy occurs there as well.  It is not a verbal banter against the Lord, but a refusal to accept that relationship.
> 
> THunter



Good Post!! 

Teacher


----------



## BlownSkillet (Aug 20, 2006)

leroy said:
			
		

> Peter did 3 times.



       Peter did so because he was in fear for his life BUT, he knew better because he knew Christ was the son of God and would be our savior. 
      Also Christ had not died on the cross so salvation through Christ was not possible at this point.

      I do not believe man will be saved if he turns from Christ but as a Christian, that's something I simply can't imagine any other Christian doing...no matter how bad YOU THINK things get or have gotten. 

     Bottom line is that God Almighty will be the final judge, I certainly will not be.  I am only human and by God's Grace, I can only hope to live my life as Christ did.


----------

