# Steel files into knives



## Mr Bya Lungshot (Nov 26, 2019)

Picked up a pile of steel files and want some advice on turning out a nice couple hunting knives...
Anybody? Somebody? @Anvil Head @godogs57 and the other fella just as great?


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## godogs57 (Nov 26, 2019)

Gimme a shout out. Be glad to help


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Nov 26, 2019)

godogs57 said:


> Gimme a shout out. Be glad to help


Well do I heat it redhot first, pound on it first or just start grinding?


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 26, 2019)

Disclaimer: I am far from an expert but I’ve made a couple from files over the years that turned out halfway decent:
You need to anneal it first IMO and then retemper it after you’re done shaping it. Files are tempered harder and more brittle than you usually want for a knife blade.


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Nov 26, 2019)

Why not just grind it down? I don’t want to lose all the file ability.
I definitely want to leave some in. They’re thick probably alot too long and old.
I want to then use deer antler but I got that part down pat.
Why can’t I just begin with the grind?


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 26, 2019)

You probably could. Like I said, I’m not anywhere near being a good knife maker. Just going by what I’ve been told by those who are. Take my advice with a half a shaker of salt.


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Nov 26, 2019)

Slow grind without over heating maybe?
Dad said I could use a file and it be a good one but dang that was forty years ago he said that. Just now found the ones I wanna use.


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## Tom W. (Nov 27, 2019)

If you don't anneal it first you're gonna get a blade that ain't gonna last long. It can be a file or a knife, but it won't make a good knife if you want it to be able to file, and won't make a good file if you want it to be a knife. I've made a few when I worked at the sawmill and gave them to friends for Christmas.
And after you get the contour of the blade be sure you get the bevel the same on both sides of the file.

But if you want to grind away by all means do so. It's a learning process and experience.


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Nov 27, 2019)

Thanks I’ll anneal first. It is a file but I’m going for a knife that looks like a file not a file that looks like a knife.


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## Hillbilly stalker (Nov 27, 2019)

Mr Bya Lungshot said:


> Slow grind without over heating maybe?
> Dad said I could use a file and it be a good one but dang that was forty years ago he said that. Just now found the ones I wanna use.


Fourty years ago they made good files to start with. Now.....not so much. I've read you have to watch what you start out with. Good luck and post us some pictures when your done.


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Nov 27, 2019)

Hillbilly stalker said:


> Fourty years ago they made good files to start with. Now.....not so much. I've read you have to watch what you start out with. Good luck and post us some pictures when your done.


Oh they grandpaw old for show!


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## Tom W. (Nov 27, 2019)

I know I used files when I worked in the filing room. Prior to that I was the Q.C. guy.They weren't the worst files we could get, and we bought them in a box that held two dozen. When some idiot that didn't know how to use a file properly got his hands on one it didn't take long for it to get so dull it wouldn't cut Babbitt. The owners had a great idea about sending the dull and worn out files to a place in Montgomery that claimed that they could re- cut them. That lasted about two trips. When they came back you could look down the broad side and still see the teeth folded over.

BTW, stab a big white potato with the tang before you start to anneal it and when you grind it. It will help absorb some of the heat that can be detrimental to the finished product.


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## Anvil Head (Nov 28, 2019)

Lot more to making a decent knife out of a file than has been presented here. I can see all kinds of problems cropping up from what I just read.

Got a few questions for you:
What brand files do you have?
What kind of grinder will you be using?
What kind of access do you have available to properly heat steel?

Where do you live? If you are close to Acworth area, maybe I can help you out with some of the more critical issues you will encounter. You can pm/message me and we can discuss this in more detail. Too easy to misconstrue information here in the forum format.

It's no harder to do it right than it is to do it wrong, trust me on this.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 28, 2019)

Anvil Head said:


> Lot more to making a decent knife out of a file than has been presented here. I can see all kinds of problems cropping up from what I just read.
> 
> Got a few questions for you:
> What brand files do you have?
> ...


Now, this is the guy you need to listen to. He has done forgotten more about knife making than most of us will ever know.


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Nov 28, 2019)

Im listening,I’m listening.
Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
As far as ability or availability of these tools I have it all in one form or another. Definitely will be listening to the man @Anvil Head


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Nov 28, 2019)

And @godogs57 if y’all don’t mind me listening at tol.


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## godogs57 (Nov 28, 2019)

Job #1: I test every file to ensure its hardenable. I usually have no problems with the vintage files...50+ years old is my preferred file. Newer files? Sometimes they are only surface hardened....nooo good. Here's how you test files...

Take the end of the file and heat it cherry red. Quench immediately in water, not oil. Water. Allow it to cool and then place the water quenched part of the file over something solid. An anvil is best. With the quenched tip hanging off the anvil, or whatever,  wack it with a hammer. It should snap in two.  Snap right off. You now know you have good hardenable steel and can proceed. If it doesnt snap off and just bends over the anvil, leaving a 90 degree angle, throw the file away....trash. 

You cant begin the process of making an acceptable blade until you perform this most important step!

I love the old files. They are simple carbon steel, but its generally good quality. More recent files...I stay with brands I trust. Nicholson, Black Diamond, Save Edge come to mind. Stay away from Belotta brand...you see a lot of these out there. They are made in Brazil and the quality varies greatly. 

Good files need be annealed before working into a blade. You CAN grind one that is hardened but it's almost a certainty it'll get burned (softened) inadvertently.  I anneal my blades in my heat treat oven following heat treat of my stainless blades.  While the oven is still hot after I pull my stainless blades out, and I have a few files to anneal, I'll wait till the oven drops to about 900 degrees...i then unplug the oven and put in a half dozen files, close the door, and let em sit in there overnight . They'll be cooled down and annealed tomorrow morning. 

Then I grind the blades, get em where i want to be and prepare to heat treat. I heat in my forge only until they are non-magnetic, then quench in a medium quench oil like Brownells Tough Quench. Be very careful NOT to overheat! Test it with a magnet when its cherry red...leave it in a little longer if the magnet still attracts the steel.  Usually (for me) when it goes from red to a darkish orange...that's when I know I'm getting close. 

Do not quench in water! Do not quench in a fast oil either. Medium oil is what you need for files.

After quench and the blade is at room temp, run a good file across what will eventually be the cutting edge. It will skate across the blade like glass....its heat treated correctly at this point.  If the file digs into the blade significantly,  it didnt harden..A little teeny tiny bit of digging in is ok. Then on to the tempering process. Tempering will reduce the hardness of the steel just a smidge, which is what you want. It re-aligns the molecules in the blade and gets the blade ready for its job in the field. I temper at 375-400 degrees for 2 hours....three times.Now you're ready to finish the blade!

This is the cliff notes version of how I make a file knife....there are a number of other steps in my process, but this will get you started. 

Happy Thanksgiving yall


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## Anvil Head (Nov 29, 2019)

Pretty well presented gd57. I concur with pretty much everything you wrote.

*General*
>#1 is very important - *always* test before proceeding with all unknown/mystery steels. Even same brand name files are not all equal. For example, newer Nicholson's are not the same alloy composition as the older ones. Belotta's, India's and Pakastan's are all over the page. Even Save Edge, while reasonably consistent, runs in the .57 to ,60 range in carbon content. Marginal on the low end for blade quality steel, which means you have to be very tight on temp control during heattreating to get best results.
>While yes, 900 deg and down in a slow cool does soften a file, it is not "annealed" per say, but just low end normalized. True annealing is a much more sophisticated physical change on the molecular scale. Still works just to normalize, just getting terminology straight. If you don't have access to a trustworthy heat treat oven, you can also normalize files in your fire place or pit by burying them in the coals when you shut down for the night. Fish them out in the morning.

*Lungshot* 
> I don't grind my blades, but forge them to around 90% finish. If you plan to forge them out, make sure you grind down past the edge of the teeth/cuts on the files edge and up the sides of the file a good 1/4". Otherwise you are just forcing cold-shuts (micro-cracks) into the working edge of your blade which is not good. If you grind not a big issue.
> Once you have shaped your blade by either method you need to re- normalize  three times: *1st *at quench temp and cool to touch *2nd *right at non-magnetic and cool to touch and *3rd *at dull almost black red and cool to touch. Cool to touch means allowing the blade to cool slowly out of cool moving air - best method is sticking in a bucket of vermiculite or dry wood ash for a slow cool each time. It's time to drill any holes you need in the steel now, before you harden it again.
> You have not said if or what kind of forge you have access to. Temp control is pretty important from this point on. Judging temps in a coal forge require a good bit of experience, gas forge is somewhat easier as you can see your blade, regulate and control the temps better. The magnet will work as described, but you must be diligent in watching the colorization change in the steel and get the entire blade that shade with no bright spots. This too, takes some practice to get right. 
> If you don't have ready access to a "professional" designated quench oil, you can substitute warmed canola oil - heated to 120 degrees prior to quenching (candy t'meter or turkey t'meter will tell when ready). Not quite as fast as Tough Quench, but sufficient for most file steels with the exception of the Nicholson Black Diamonds and Simmons (they are 1095 steel and require a faster quench oil, like Parks 50 for best results).
> Use the tempering process gd57 described. Again these temps need to be as accurate as possible. While using the wife's oven can work, cooking ovens are all over the page while trying to control temp -  they cycle high drop to low over and over to regulate temp. Not the best scenario. Put an extra oven t'meter in that you can watch without opening the door and keep an eye on it until you are comfortable with it's stability.
>> Preheat the oven prior to doing the hardening quench on the blade so it is up to heat when quench is completed. Do not linger once the blade is at handleable temp. Proceed directly to the oven. Hesitating can induce stress cracks in a lot of higher carbon steels as the blade continues to cool internally.
*Word to the wise - use soap and water to remove as much Q oil from the blade as possible before putting into the oven!*
 Try 375 first then test the sharpenability of the blade. If it's too difficult to put an edge on go to 400 and retest, may have to go as high as 415 with some steels. You want to achieve an edge that you can maintain in the field with minimal effort and that wont chip or break when you hit bone. 

Still a lot more to this than has been mentioned here, but it should get you started. Just remember it's supposed to be fun. You can get a lot of enjoyment skinning that deer/hog with a knife you made yourself. Heck, it may become your new-found addiction like it is for us.
If you really get to liking this - go spend time with an established knifemaker or two, or three. We don't all do everything the same but we aspire to produce the best we can from our efforts. You can learn something from every shop you visit to find the way that best suits you.


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Nov 30, 2019)

Heres two I hand picked for knifes or files. I use both often. I beat the rust off with a wire wheel. Are these top quality for knifes or??? Seem to be excellent files.


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Nov 30, 2019)

Both are made in USA.


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Nov 30, 2019)

One more USA file.


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## Pig Predator (Nov 30, 2019)

Did you heat em up, quench em in water and whack em with a hammer like the man said? Did they bend or break?


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Nov 30, 2019)

Pig Predator said:


> Did you heat em up, quench em in water and whack em with a hammer like the man said? Did they bend or break?


Just cleaning some of the rust off yet.
Heres another


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## Anvil Head (Dec 1, 2019)

Pretty interesting selection of files. The Lion Head is quite intriguing and one I'd try to save the log and incorporate to show when the knife is finished. Same with the last one, just cause I like cool logos/brands. I would still water quench test the steel on the leading end. Don't quench the entire file, just the first two inches or so. It doesn't take a cave man wallop just a good tap.....wear safety glasses please!

The Simmons is a pretty sure bet for high carbon, the others will need testing as above. The Heller seems to have varying results for different folks and the ones I've tested have been on the lower range of enough carbon for knife blades - somewhere in the high .5% to .65% for their farrier's models. So I just use them for wrap-around hawks.

Bottom line on all is the initial testing for hardenability, then being careful with the thermal cycling (heat-treating) when you get to that part of the project. If you do the normalizing step to remove the hardness and grind the file into a blade, don't worry about overheating while grinding, just keep a bucket of water handy to cool it off as you grind. You will recondition the steel later during HTng. Do not grind all the way to sharp, leave the "cutting" edge about the thickness of a dime - too thin will cause possible issues during final hardening quench like warping and/or cracking. 
Make sure your grinding is smooth and even on both sides. 

Note: Be sure to do the last 3 step normalizing process before you do the hardening and tempering steps. This will greatly increase the quality of you final results.

You have not stated how you plan to mount the handle material. Expand on that and we can give you some helpful tips there as well.

Oh yeah, last but not least - if the files are still usable, use them up first. No need in wasting a useful tool. A less aggressive way to remove rust/crud from old files is to soak in a container of warm white vinegar for a day or two. Most will clean right up with a light wire brushing that won't damage the teeth so much as a wire wheel.


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Dec 1, 2019)

Ok thinking about heating the tips of the black diamond first and then the lion head.
Both those are special to me and dont wanna screw up. The BD was my fathers and he said make a knife outta this one when its filing abilty is gone. The tip is long and is real bad so why not bust it off and make a knife from daddy’s file. The lion head file too had a bad spot at the tip but I hate to start with the best. The other files are all great as files still. Taking it slow and sure and probably show up at one of the here now pros house rather than ruin my chances.
It’s the final product I’m after so time is not the issue its the techniques and knowledge I’m learning and waiting on to get it right the firsttime.

The handle will probably be antler on one and some special wood on the other.
I’ll pin the antlers with brass rod or brass nut n bolt for lack of the proper term for handle connectors.
I’m definitely open to new and old ideas.


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## Anvil Head (Dec 2, 2019)

Sounds like a plan. Don't worry about doing something "new" unless you plan to go electric or use plastics. Everything else has been around and done since man first discovered how to make tools. Someone has surely done it before over and over and over.  And, I might add, with a whole lot less tools than what we have available today.
Glad you intend to take it slowly. 
Sent you a private message.


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## RedHills (Dec 2, 2019)

Here's an old one I rehandled for a friend. The original was rosewood and not pinned. I told him I could pin it but he choose not to. I really like the blade. He has no clue who made it, was given to him 30 yrs ago. It was pretty nasty and I'm not set up for metal polishing  Cleaned it up best I could. Don't know nutn bought knife makn.


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Dec 2, 2019)

Perfect!
Just rehandled my custom handmade but bought knife yesterday with antler. I don’t think its a file knife but it could be???
Yours is what I want. The file part exactly would please me bigtime.
Once you have that who cares what handle is on it, its still just a file.


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## Anvil Head (Dec 3, 2019)

Just looking at it, it might be that there were no pins originally as the file may never have been normalized or softened for work and reheat-treating holding its original hardness. The owner (gifted) probably liked the look without pins. Two things the pins do - stabilize the scales so the glue joint is not shocked or easily broken, and retains the handle encase the glue does release. 

The blade looks nice and the grind look well done. Shame he doesn't remember the maker. 
If the file was ground into a blade "as is" with no heat-treating - the bulk of the blade will be a bit on the hard side for a working blade and prone to be brittle, easily chipped or broken. 
*gd57* brought up another point as well. Unless the maker was reasonably experienced with grinding and heat control, there are possibly "soft" or burned spots along the cutting edge where the blade got too hot during the grinding. The thinner the ground part gets the trickier. Way more prevalent in blades made this way. No way to be certain with out testing.

I prefer to redo the HT on any steels I use so I know for sure where things stand.


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## godogs57 (Dec 4, 2019)

Mr Bya Lungshot said:


> View attachment 993425View attachment 993425View attachment 993427View attachment 993428Both are made in USA.



I’ve  made several very fine knives from Heller files.....they have the right stuff, so to speak. I’m thinking the lions head file would be good to go as well.


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## 10mmhunter (Dec 5, 2019)

You


Mr Bya Lungshot said:


> Why not just grind it down? I don’t want to lose all the file ability.
> I definitely want to leave some in. They’re thick probably alot too long and old.
> I want to then use deer antler but I got that part down pat.
> Why can’t I just begin with the grind?


I’m pretty sure I sent you a message saying I’d be glad to give you some advice with  Old File Knives.  I’m no master bladesmith but I’ve sold file knives for $425 on ArizonaCoustomKnives.  They just have to be done right to be as good as purchase known steel.
       Raley Lane
        706-713-0397


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Dec 5, 2019)

Yes Sir I love the advice I live in johns creek. Alpharetta but deer hunting for a week starting now


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Dec 5, 2019)

The Heller file is still as new so I’ll pick another to make a knife. Probably the lionhead if the steel is right and I’d imagine it is.


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## Anvil Head (Dec 6, 2019)

My invite still stands as well. If you'd like to "save" the Lion's Head logo to show up on the finished knife, I can help you with that. Not difficult once you see how it can be done.
On the "file" look, that's no real issue. Now if you want it to still cut as a file, you are looking at a couple of problems:
1 - Back to grinding at full hard with all the risk mentioned prior.  
2 - If you plan to sheath it once complete, the file portion will quickly eat up the sheath. It will also cause some resistance when cutting, dependent on material being cut.
Most makers I know (including me) will grind/sand/or hammer the file teeth down to a smoother surface. The teeth still show but are no longer aggressive.

Below are a few I've made from files. Could not find one with a saved logo stamp, but have done several. Remember, I forge all my blades to shape and re-heattreat all my steels.


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## Mr Bya Lungshot (Dec 6, 2019)

@Anvil Head I’m coming to you first as your the closer master oh and of course up their with the best.
Id rather have a great knife with a lionhead on it than a file.
@godogs57 is on my list for visits as well but I’m bringing him a different set of files.
Then when done I can say two of the best people in the world taught me how to make these. Another guy offered help too and he’s not too far for a file knife either in toccoa. Just hunting and working but definitely gonna go forging.


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## Anvil Head (Dec 6, 2019)

You would not go wrong visiting with Raley (Toccoa). He does fine work and is a gifted smith.


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