# Acts 2:38 Commentary comments



## Ronnie T (Feb 12, 2010)

Thought I'd post this just for your reading enjoyment.

Acts 2:38  Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

*Geneva Study Bible *
{8} Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 
(8) Repentance and remission of sins in Christ are two principles of the Gospel and therefore of our salvation: and they are obtained by the promises apprehended by faith, and are ratified by us in baptism; and with our salvation comes the power of the Holy Spirit (Ed.).

*People's New Testament *
2:38 Repent, and be baptized. For the first time the terms of pardon under the New Covenant and the Great Commission are given; given once for all time, and always the same. The convicted, broken-hearted, sorrowing sinner, believing that Jesus is the Christ, is to repent and be baptized. 
Repent. Not sorrow. They already sorrowed; but a change of purpose; the internal change which resolves to serve the Lord. The Greek term metanoeo, rendered repent, means a change of mind. The act of obedience in baptism is an outward expression of both faith and repentance. 
In the name of Jesus Christ. Upon the name (Revised Version). Upon the ground of the name. In submission to the authority of Jesus Christ. 
For the remission of sins. Thus, by complying with the conditions just named, they shall receive remission of sins. No man can receive pardon without faith and repentance, nor can he without submission to the will of Christ. Meyer says: 
Eis (for) denotes the object of baptism, which is the remission of the guilt contracted in the state before metanoia (repentance).'' 
And Prof. Hackett writes: 
In order to the forgiveness of sins we connect naturally with both the preceding verbs. This clause states the motive or object which should induce them to repent and be baptized.'' 
The gift of the Holy Spirit. Promised as a comforter to all who obey Christ, but whom the world cannot receive (Joh 14:17).

*Wesley's Notes *
2:38 Repent - And hereby return to God: be baptized - Believing in the name of Jesus - And ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost - See the three - one God clearly proved. See Ac 26:20. The gift of the Holy Ghost does not mean in this place the power of speaking with tongues. For the promise of this was not given to all that were afar off, in distant ages and nations. But rather the constant fruits of faith, even righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Whomsoever the Lord our God shall call - (Whether they are Jews or Gentiles) by his word and by his Spirit: and who are not disobedient to the heavenly calling. But it is observable St. Peter did not yet understand the very words he spoke.

*Scofield Reference Notes *
Margin remission 
See Scofield Note: "Mt 26:28". 
Margin sins 
Sin. See Scofield Note: "Rom 3:23".

*Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary *
38. Repent-The word denotes change of mind, and here includes the reception of the Gospel as the proper issue of that revolution of mind which they were then undergoing. 
baptized . for the remission of sins-as the visible seal of that remission.

*Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary *
2:37-41 From the first delivery of that Divine message, it appeared that there was Divine power going with it; and thousands were brought to the obedience of faith. But neither Peter's words, nor the miracle they witnessed, could have produced such effects, had not the Holy Spirit been given. Sinners, when their eyes are opened, cannot but be pricked to the heart for sin, cannot but feel an inward uneasiness. The apostle exhorted them to repent of their sins, and openly to avow their belief in Jesus as the Messiah, by being baptized in his name. Thus professing their faith in Him, they would receive remission of their sins, and partake of the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit. To separate from wicked people, is the only way to save ourselves from them. Those who repent of their sins, and give up themselves to Jesus Christ, must prove their sincerity by breaking off from the wicked. We must save ourselves from them; which denotes avoiding them with dread and holy fear. By God's grace three thousand persons accepted the gospel invitation. There can be no doubt that the gift of the Holy Ghost, which they all received, and from which no true believer has ever been shut out, was that Spirit of adoption, that converting, guiding, sanctifying grace, which is bestowed upon all the members of the family of our heavenly Father. Repentance and remission of sins are still preached to the chief of sinners, in the Redeemer's name; still the Holy Spirit seals the blessing on the believer's heart; still the encouraging promises are to us and our children; and still the blessings are offered to all that are afar off.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 12, 2010)

So, based on your interpretation of the above passage...can you receive the Holy Spirit before Baptism?


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 12, 2010)

i was done with "water vs blood" but since you started a new thread,,, 

Acts 2:38

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

here ya go, CF...  
http://www.rickross.com/reference/icc/ICC122.html

This is one of the favorite verses of those who believe baptism is necessary for salvation. They point out simply that it says that we must be "baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins," and since remission of sins is necessary for salvation, baptism is therefore necessary for salvation.

A careful study of the Greek grammar at this point shows that it is repentance, not baptism, which is "for the remission of sins." The Greek text reads (translated):

You (plural) repent and be baptized each one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for (the) remission of the sins of you.

This makes it clear that "remission of your [plural] sins" is the result of "you [plural] repent[ing]," not of "each one [singular] being baptized." The command to repent is given in the plural number and second person; the command to be baptized is given in the singular number and third person; the sins remitted belong to "you" in the plural number and second person. It is therefore improper to refer "remission of sins" to "baptism" as its cause, for this would mean that each one was baptized for the remission of the sins of all those present.

To take baptism here as causing the remission of sins would be to make the text say, "Let him be baptized for the remission of all your sins," and "Let him (another) be baptized for the remission of all your sins," and "Let him (yet another) be baptized for the remission of all your sins," and so on to each person in the group. Thus, each one would be baptized for the remission of the sins of all the people in the group.

But the grammar instead is quite clear. Remission of sins is the result of repentance, not of baptism. You repent and your sins will be remitted. You all repent and the sins of all you will be remitted. Acts 2:38, therefore, does not teach the necessity of baptism for salvation.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 12, 2010)

BH, if that's what the Greek says, why doesn't the Greek Orthodox church believe that?  You'd think they'd know their own language.

Care to guess their position on baptism?  Here's a hint:  you wouldn't care for it.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 12, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> BH, if that's what the Greek says, why doesn't the Greek Orthodox church believe that?  You'd think they'd know their own language.
> 
> Care to guess their position on baptism?  Here's a hint:  you wouldn't care for it.



you are correct sir... i only care for the Word.

i didnt know everyone in that church was fluent in Greek...


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## Ronnie T (Feb 12, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> So, based on your interpretation of the above passage...can you receive the Holy Spirit before Baptism?



I only posted the above information for general information.  I actually think the subject has gone it's limit for now.
I'll leave you to your beliefs concerning the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

Personally, I believe, according to the scripture, that a new convert receives the Holy Spirit during baptism.

I believe that because of verses such as Acts 2:38.  You know, "do those things and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit".


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## Ronnie T (Feb 12, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> i was done with "water vs blood" but since you started a new thread,,,
> 
> Acts 2:38
> 
> ...



The above is totally incorrect.
He simply is not providing accurate information.

Furthermore, if that were what the original text said, that's what the modern translation would say.  It would be simple for the translator to translate the verse accurately.  Which they did.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 12, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Furthermore, if that were what the original text said, that's what the modern translation would say.  It would be simple for the translator to translate the verse accurately.  Which they did.



Exactly.  Otherwise, why even bother to translate?


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## rjcruiser (Feb 12, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> So, based on your interpretation of the above passage...can you receive the Holy Spirit before Baptism?





Ronnie T said:


> Personally, I believe, according to the scripture, that a new convert receives the Holy Spirit during baptism.



So...I guess your answer would be no.  Your belief is that a new convert receives the Holy Spirit during baptism as you stated above.

So how do you reconcile that to the disciples?  Remember...they were all baptized before Christ's ascension.  When did they receive the Holy Spirit?  Acts 2...the day of Pentacost.

So see?  The disciples didn't receive the Holy Spirit until well after they're conversion and baptism.



Oh...but wait.  I can argue it the other way as well.  When did Cornelius and his household receive the Holy Spirit?  Upon Belief and well before their baptism.  Look at Acts 10:44.  The Holy Spirit fell upon them.  And it wasn't until 4 verses later that Peter commanded that they be baptized...again, well after they had the Holy Spirit.



Ronnie T....Centerpin...I bring these instance up because it shows that when one bases all of their belief's upon one verse and not the entire harmony of the Word of God, you can make it say whatever you want it to.


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## earl (Feb 12, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> The above is totally incorrect.
> He simply is not providing accurate information.
> 
> Furthermore, if that were what the original text said, that's what the modern translation would say.  It would be simple for the translator to translate the verse accurately.  Which they did.




You might  want to check with Lowjack. He has a different take on that translation theory. Or transliteration.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 12, 2010)

I don't base my position on one verse, but on many verses and 2,000 years of church history.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 12, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't base my position on one verse, but on many verses and 2,000 years of church history.



i sure am thankful Jesus and the Apostles didn't base their teachings on 2000 years of church history... if they had,
i would still be under the law, which cannot save...


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## rjcruiser (Feb 12, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't base my position on one verse, but on many verses and 2,000 years of church history.



Care to give additional verses that support your view?

We'll leave the ECFs out of this as there are views from both sides.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 12, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> So...I guess your answer would be no.  Your belief is that a new convert receives the Holy Spirit during baptism as you stated above.
> 
> So how do you reconcile that to the disciples?  Remember...they were all baptized before Christ's ascension.  When did they receive the Holy Spirit?  Acts 2...the day of Pentacost.
> 
> ...



RJ,
My contention has always been that baptism is what Jesus taught, and it's what His apostles taught.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 12, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> i sure am thankful Jesus and the Apostles didn't base their teachings on 2000 years of church history... if they had,
> i would still be under the law, which cannot save...



Bh, Jesus and His apostles are the ones who taught the need for baptism.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 12, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Care to give additional verses that support your view?
> 
> We'll leave the ECFs out of this as there are views from both sides.




Rj, you need to go over to the other thread where we've been discussing this for several weeks.
Dozens of scriptures were posted there.

*I will ask you two questions I've been trying to get others to specifically answer.

The questions have to do with Acts 2:38

37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

*Question #1*.  Why is baptism even included in verse 38.
*Question #2*.  Why hadn't they received the Holy Spirit prior to baptism?


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## rjcruiser (Feb 12, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Rj, you need to go over to the other thread where we've been discussing this for several weeks.
> Dozens of scriptures were posted there.
> 
> *I will ask you two questions I've been trying to get others to specifically answer.
> ...



Ronnie...

Nope...not going to go to the other thread.  I've managed not to read a single post in it...and I am determined to keep it that way.  It is an argument that has been gone through before and if someone thinks that I can give additional input, I'll redirect them to the thread that has 865 posts.

Only reason that I said what I did in this thread is because I caught it early and felt that I could help a few others with some of the doubt that your views have caused.


Now...to your questions.

#1.  Why is it included?  Because Luke under the influence of the Holy Spirit included it.  However, you really should study the Greek translation of the verse.  Much easier to understand if you do.  I think BH gave a good summary of it.  If my memory serves me correct...the Greek Word that makes the difference is "eis."  

#2.  Why hadn't they received the Holy Spirit prior to baptism?  Not sure.  As you read through the book of Acts and the first years of the church, you can see that there are different times when the text points out that the person saved receives the Holy Spirit.

You show Acts 2:38 that gives the opinion that it comes at baptism.  I've shown above two other instances where that is not the case (one...receiving the HS after baptism and another showing receipt of the HS before baptism).

It is obvious that the end result...those who are Christians....have the Holy Spirit.  When you look at the rest of scripture, you see that our Faith in Christ Jesus is a gift....not of ourselves but of God (Eph 2:8-9).  It is scriptures like these that point me to the view that nothing but Faith in Christ is required for Salvation (See Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." )

I'll leave it at that for now.  I am curious if there are other scriptures that you can point to that support your view.  I've given others that clearly support other views.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 12, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Care to give additional verses that support your view?
> 
> We'll leave the ECFs out of this as there are views from both sides.




As Ronnie said, the other thread is filled with them.

Regarding the ECF's, which ones agreed with the "baptism is just a symbol/baptism is not essential" position?


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## centerpin fan (Feb 12, 2010)

OK, then:

Acts 8
Acts 16
Acts 22
Matthew 28
Mark 16
John 3:5
Rom 6:3-5
Col 2:12
Gal 3:27
Titus 3:5
1 Peter 3:21

Now how about those ECF's?


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 12, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Bh, Jesus and His apostles are the ones who taught the need for baptism.



based on your logic here, then we have to conclude also...  Jesus told us to not worry (Matt 6:25).  so therefore, if i do worry, then i am going to helll.  

we are all in agreement that the Word taught baptism AND every repentant sinner should get water baptized as an act of obedience to Christ... but He did not teach nor anyone in the Bible that we had to get a bath to go to heaven...

think about passover in the OT... what saved the people from death? the blood.

at the Lords Supper (Matt 26:28), Jesus said, this is My blood, which was shed for the remission of sins...  how can you add anything to these critical events in the Bible??

there are hundreds more verses that discuss repentance for remission of sin, the blood that washes away sins, being converted, salvation, etc and water is never mentioned...  did God make a mistake? did He forget to mention water baptism in all of those verses...?  no.  He did not mention water in all of those verses so people would not focus on the water or the work or what we can do to save ourselves...

we are saved by grace thru faith, not of our works.  getting dunked in water would be a work...  please consider what the Bible teaches "as a whole" on salvation instead of picking a couple of verses on dunking that just _appear_ to say being dunked is necessary, but really don't... 

saved by grace is a gift from God..  a free gift.  if somebody wanted to give you a gift, a gift that you did not deserve for any reason... and then once they were about to give you that gift, they told you, you needed to go do something to actually receive that gift or that you needed to pay them back for the gift... than that gift is not a free gift...  it would be a "gift with a catch"... the Bible does not teach that salvation thru grace is a "free gift with a catch" or a "free gift with repayment"...

Free Gift:
Rom 3:24
Rom 5:15
Rom 5:16
Rom 5:18
1 Cor 2:12

i got a pop up on my computer recently... it said, "you have just won a free gift! a new Dell laptop...  all you have to do is fill out this form, take a survey, subscribe to their magazine, etc etc..."

that is not a "free gift"... that is a gift with a catch... and not really a "gift" at all... 

My Bible tells me loud and clear... 100% of salvation is given to me as a free gift (grace) thru faith in His work on the cross... with no strings attached.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 12, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> OK, then:
> 
> Acts 8
> Acts 16
> ...



Acts 8?  No where in Acts 8 does it say Baptism is required for Salvation or the Holy Spirit.  It does however say that Repentance is necessary for Baptism.

Acts 16?  Lydia's heart was opened by the Holy Spirit before she was baptized.  How could the Holy Spirit open her heart if it wasn't inside of her?    The Jailer?  In vs 31, only says repentence is necessary for salvation.


I could go on....but it just isn't there.

No one is saying that Baptism is not commanded (at least I'm not).  It is commanded.  It is something that all believers should do.  But, it isn't required for salvation.

Now...as far as ECFs, you should read the thread I bumped earlier today.    

Another good one is one that I started (but will not bump as it will bring up things I do not wish to start) entitled "Are Catholics Christians."  Goes into great depth quotes from ECFs that show Salvation is a gift of God and only repentance/belief is required for Salvation.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 12, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> I only posted the above information for general information.  I actually think the subject has gone it's limit for now.
> I'll leave you to your beliefs concerning the receiving of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> Personally, I believe, according to the scripture, that a new convert receives the Holy Spirit during baptism.
> ...


Didn't Paul lay hands on them and they received the HS?


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## mtnwoman (Feb 12, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Rj, you need to go over to the other thread where we've been discussing this for several weeks.
> Dozens of scriptures were posted there.
> 
> *I will ask you two questions I've been trying to get others to specifically answer.
> ...



I received the HS before I was baptized, or I probably wouldn't even have believed enough to be baptized, I could tell I was changed when I accepted Christ into my heart. The power of the HS was so overwhelming that I knew it was real, and I wanted to be baptized. Did I think in the flesh that water baptism was washing my sins away, of course I did, (I was 12) I didn't want to think I was actually being baptized in blood, but I knew because of the blood the water was a witness to others that I was saved and was brought into the family of Christ.

But I was saved first then I accepted baptism.
Had I died the minute after I accepted Christ as my saviour and didn't get baptized, I was still saved.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 12, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> based on your logic here, then we have to conclude also...  Jesus told us to not worry (Matt 6:25).  so therefore, if i do worry, then i am going to helll.
> 
> we are all in agreement that the Word taught baptism AND every repentant sinner should get water baptized as an act of obedience to Christ... but He did not teach nor anyone in the Bible that we had to get a bath to go to heaven...
> 
> ...




All of the scriptures you quote above are true and I believe in all of them.  And they are all important scripture.
You and I could never earn our salvation and we are truly blessed by God to grant us this opportunity to become His children.
But Jesus and His apostles still taught that when a person comes in faith, they are to be baptized.
Not as a work.  But as a holy act of righteousness.

It is not optional.

The real question is this:  Can I come to Christ and then refuse baptism when it's offered to me????  I believe the answer is no.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 12, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> But Jesus and His apostles still taught that when a person comes in faith, they are to be baptized.


Absolutely correct.  They also taught that we should sin no more.



			
				Ronnie T said:
			
		

> The real question is this:  Can I come to Christ and then refuse baptism when it's offered to me????  I believe the answer is no.



Wouldn't it just be sin?  Can a person who has come to Christ sin?  

Can a person who has un-repentant sin in their life when they die, go to Heaven?

Ronnie...I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one.  Thankfully, we've both been baptized and both have the HS inside of us.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 12, 2010)

RF, I mistakenly wrote Acts 16.  I meant Acts 22:16.  

I'll take a look at the other threads at some point this weekend.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 12, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> All of the scriptures you quote above are true and I believe in all of them.  And they are all important scripture.
> You and I could never earn our salvation and we are truly blessed by God to grant us this opportunity to become His children.
> But Jesus and His apostles still taught that when a person comes in faith, they are to be baptized.
> Not as a work.  But as a holy act of righteousness.
> ...




i know that we agree totally except for the necessity part.

if i said that i repented and was saved but i refused to get water baptized... if you were my friend and pastor and wanted me to get water baptized, and i refused... you as my pastor need to help me examine my heart to help determine if i am truly saved...  

anybody that truly comes to Christ would never refuse baptism because its what Jesus wants. and they will be more concerned about Jesus' wants than their own...

when i repented, and received the HS many years ago, i called my pastor and said pastor, i want to get baptized asap... he said well, we can baptize not this sunday but next sunday... i said ok, no problem...  he was a baptist preacher...  i think he would have panicked and wanted me in there that day to get baptized...

but if i would have gotten in a wreck and got killed... i am still going to heaven because i repented and believed and got the HS...  Jesus would not kick me out of heaven because a bus ran over me and killed me just before i was gonna get baptized...  i cant see that.  the part that God is looking for is our heart.  all thru the Bible He says how rotten our hearts are that we have to clean the hearts or be in danger of some smoke....

now if a person gets saved and refuses the water. you have dig deeper to see if maybe they were baptized as a baby and they are putting faith in the infant baptism....
thats a whole nother can of worms...  i was baptized as a baby and once getting saved 35 years later... i demanded to get baptized again... i put no trust in the infant baptism that i got as a babe....

but my wife was baptized as a baby too. she got saved at 19 and refused to get baptized again because she said she was baptized already... i have pleaded with her to get baptized again and she wont do it...  but i dont think shes gonna miss heaven because of that...

"its not optional"...  i cant see that.  the theif on the cross would be my best example... he believed and repented and Jesus saved him...  no water necessary for that one...


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## Ronnie T (Feb 12, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Ronnie...
> 
> Nope...not going to go to the other thread.  I've managed not to read a single post in it...and I am determined to keep it that way.  It is an argument that has been gone through before and if someone thinks that I can give additional input, I'll redirect them to the thread that has 865 posts.
> 
> ...



Let me answer the questions.  I haven't so far.

#1.  Why is it included?
Baptism is included in the verse because the Holy Spirit is leading and guiding Peter at this time and the Spirit wanted Peter to baptize these people.  
Those people asked "What shall we do" and they were told to  repent and be baptized.
They could have been told, "Say a prayer of acceptance to God"  or  "pray for forgiveness and God will forgive your sins".
But they were told, by the Holy Spirit, "repent and be baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins."
What an odd thing to say when so much else could have been said.

#2.  Why hadn't they received the Holy Spirit prior to baptism?
It isn't necessary to know the answer to this question.  But it's important to at least recognize that the words were spoken.  And since they were, they become a part of my knowledge and understanding of God's Spirit.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 12, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Thought I'd post this just for your reading enjoyment.
> 
> Acts 2:38  Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> ...




rt,

what about this:

 who would use Acts 2:38 to prove baptismal regeneration, are basing their proposition on a preposition. The little Greek word "eis" is here translated "for," but is translated in the New Testament in the following ways and number of times: "against" 25, "among" 16, "at" 20, "for" 91, "in" 131, "into" 571, "that" 30, "on" 57, "to" 282, "toward" 32, "unto" 208, and "upon" 25. So you can see that they are making a foolish mistake to base a vital doctrine on a little 3 letter preposition that is translated in so many different ways. The baptismal regeneration crowd interpret "eis" "for" in Acts 2:38 to mean "in order to," thus causing a person to be baptized "in order to" be saved or to received remission of sins.

Let us notice how that "eis" is used in Matt. 12:41. "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at (eis) the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." They repented not "in order" to Jonah’s preaching, but "because of" the preaching of Jonah.

Of "eis" in Acts 2:38, Dr. Carl E. Sadler has the following to say in his notes on Acts.

The Greek word "eis" about which all this contention is in Acts 2:38 is used with the word baptize or word baptism in three other passages: In Matt. 3:11, you have baptism eis repentance. Eis cannot mean in order to there, but because of repentance. Every Campbellite, Mormon, and others who teach baptism in order for remission of sin admits that repentance comes before baptism. In Romans 6:3, you find the expression baptism eis the death of Jesus. Eis cannot mean in order to there, but must mean because of; both because Christ was already dead and raised again, and because in baptism we declare that we died with Him, and have been raised with Him. In I Cor. 10:2, we have the expression eis Moses. Eis cannot mean in order to there, because they were not baptized in the cloud and in the sea in order to get Moses to be their leader, but because he was their leader. He had already led them out of Egypt. If baptism eis repentance in Matt. 3:11 means be baptized because they repented, if baptism, or be baptized eis the death of Christ means be baptized because Christ died and we died with Him, if "were baptized eis Moses" in I Cor. 10:2 means they were baptized because Moses was their leader, then it follows conclusively that "be baptized eis remission" in Acts 2:38 must mean be baptized because your sins have been remitted.

Dr. Sadler further says, "The argument that the Campbellites make that the expression, for remission of, modifies both verbs, repent and be baptized, won’t hold water. Repent is a plural verb, active voice, second person, has ye for its subject, and was addressed to the whole crowd. Be baptized is a singular verb, passive voice, third person, and has for its subject, not the whole crowd, but only such as had repented and believed. For remission does not modify both verbs. It modifies baptized only, and means that everyone who has repented and trusted in Christ is commanded to be baptized because his sins are reemitted."

While I am on the subject, I might as well deal with Romans 6:3, for the Acts 2:38 crowd will sometimes harp on this verse also. "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ..." "Into" is the same Greek word "eis." We are not saved by being "baptized into Jesus Christ," as some of these false teachers would have you to believe. The foolishness of such an argument is certainly made to seem ridiculous by comparing I Corinthians 10:1,2 with Romans 6:3. The scripture speaks of Israel’s passing through the Red Sea, "And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea." "Unto" is the same Greek "eis" that we have above and could have been as well translated "into" or "for." Yet, we know they were not baptized into or for Moses, nor were they saved at the Red Sea. Their salvation is to be found in Exodus 12:7,12,13, where the blood on the door posts was the only means of safety. It is even so today, for only the blood of Christ can cleanse from sin. Baptism has no meaning until the blood of Christ is applied by faith. Indeed baptism cannot take place until the soul is saved. One may be immersed, but only a saved person can be baptized. Unsaved people may go through the motions, but it is not real, but only an act or pretense until one is saved.

The Israelites could have ignored the blood, and they could have run down to the Nile River and immersed one another, but they would not have been "baptized unto Moses," for they would not have been obeying God or Moses. The blood saved them from the wrath of God, while the baptism at the Red Sea saved them for the wrath of Pharaoh. Man can kill the body, but only God can kill the soul. (See Exodus 12:12; Matthew 10:28). The soul is saved by "grace through faith" (Eph. 2:8,9), and this alway comes before baptism. Baptism is a testimony of salvation, and every saved person should submit to Scriptural baptism. The "dipped or be Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----" crowd have neither salvation or baptism, for when they reverse the scriptural order or sequence of the two, you nullify both (or make it impossible to have either). (Of course you understand that the baptism of Israel in the Old Testament was not New Testament baptism).

When the children of Israel "were all baptized unto (eis) Moses in the cloud and in the sea," they were giving a testimony. The armies of Pharaoh were there in great strength, ready to capture and take them back to Egypt. But they were not captured, and they were not taken back. Instead of going back, the children of Israel continued to submit to the leadership of Moses, and marched through the Red Sea dry shod. With a wall of water on either side, and the glory cloud above them, they present a beautiful type of New Testament baptism. They were testifying to the world that they no longer were in submission to Pharaoh, but they were following the leadership of Moses. When a saved person submits to Scriptural baptism, they are saying to the world that they are no longer under its dominion, but that they are following the leadership of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In Mark 16:16 we find the emphasis is on believing. It does not say, "he that is baptized not shall be dammed." Their argument here is very weak. The saved by water crowd pass over what they do not want to believe. They often quote Acts 2:38, but you will never hear them quote Acts 3:19. "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out..." Since it does not mention water or baptism, they never find time to quote it at all.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 12, 2010)

RJ, I took a look at the thread you bumped, but I didn't see what you are referring to.  I skimmed it quickly looking for your posts, so I may have missed something.  If you can post a specific page or pages, I'll take another look.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 12, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> rt,
> 
> what about this:
> 
> ...



My friend, none of this matters to me.
For the life of me I don't know why we've having this discussion?
If Jesus commanded His apostles to teach and baptize......
And if that's what they did......

Why should any of us even consider someone not be baptized?

The question is not:  "Can I get by without it?"
The question is:  "Look, here's water, please baptize me."


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## rjcruiser (Feb 12, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> RJ, I took a look at the thread you bumped, but I didn't see what you are referring to.  I skimmed it quickly looking for your posts, so I may have missed something.  If you can post a specific page or pages, I'll take another look.



  do I really have too 

I was trying to take the easy way out and make you search for it.  I'll see if I can find a few.  In all honesty though, I think that the scripture is pretty clear about its teaching.  BH and I are in the same boat on this one.  I doubt a quote from the ECF is going to change your mind.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 12, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> do I really have too
> 
> I was trying to take the easy way out and make you search for it.  I'll see if I can find a few.  In all honesty though, I think that the scripture is pretty clear about its teaching.  BH and I are in the same boat on this one.  I doubt a quote from the ECF is going to change your mind.




Yes, I'd like to see what you're talking about.  I've read a lot of the ECF's and have never seen any "baptism is not essential" quotes.  Also, I could not find the " Catholic" thread you mentioned.  Can you provide a link?

I might change my mind.  I did once before (when I believed the same as you).  I think I could argue your position as well as you.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 12, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> My friend, none of this matters to me.
> For the life of me I don't know why we've having this discussion?
> If Jesus commanded His apostles to teach and baptize......
> And if that's what they did......
> ...



Yes!


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## centerpin fan (Feb 12, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> In all honesty though, I think that the scripture is pretty clear about its teaching.



So do the people who disagree with you.  That includes the Catholics, the Orthodox, the Copts and some Protestant groups.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 12, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> Yes, I'd like to see what you're talking about.  I've read a lot of the ECF's and have never seen any "baptism is not essential" quotes.  Also, I could not find the " Catholic" thread you mentioned.  Can you provide a link?



I looked for it too.  Must have gotten deleted..either that or I'm getting old and can't even remember my own threads from 2 years ago.

That being said, the quote was never "baptism is not essential" but rather works are not required for salvation.



			
				centerpin fan said:
			
		

> I might change my mind.  I did once before (when I believed the same as you).  I think I could argue your position as well as you.



uh oh...you really should go back to your first position.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 12, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> So do the people who disagree with you.  That includes the Catholics, the Orthodox, the Copts and some Protestant groups.



Not totally true.  Some have to rely upon other writings to get their beliefs. 

okay...I think I'm done.  I can add nothing more to this thread and I think it has been hashed out enough.  If I can find my ECF quotes...I'll PM you Centerpin.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 13, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> the quote was never "baptism is not essential"



I didn't think so.




rjcruiser said:


> but rather works are not required for salvation.



I can't believe I waded through eighteen pages of baptism posts for_ that_.  I agree with _that_.


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## Tim L (Feb 13, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> RJ,
> My contention has always been that baptism is what Jesus taught, and it's what His apostles taught.



Spot on, your exactly right!


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## Jeffriesw (Feb 13, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> My friend, none of this matters to me.
> For the life of me I don't know why we've having this discussion?
> If Jesus commanded His apostles to teach and baptize......
> And if that's what they did......
> ...


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## centerpin fan (Feb 13, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Goes into great depth quotes from ECFs that show Salvation is a gift of God and only repentance/belief is required for Salvation.



First, take a look at these scriptures:

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.  - John 3:5

he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,  - Titus 3:5

And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.  - Acts 22:16


Now compare them to the writings of various ECF's:


THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS (c. A.D. 70)
Now let us see if the Lord has been at any pains to give us a foreshadowing of the waters of Baptism and of the cross. Regarding the former, we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Jer 22:13; Isa 16:1-2; 33:16-18; Psalm 1:3-6]. Observe there how he describes both the water and the cross in the same figure. His meaning is, "Blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross." Here he is saying that after we have stepped down into the water, burdened with sin and defilement, we come up out of it bearing fruit, with reverence in our hearts and the hope of Jesus in our souls. (11:1-10)

THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS (c. A.D. 140)
"I have heard, sir," said I, "from some teachers, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins." He said to me, "You have heard rightly, for so it is." (The Shepherd 4:3:1-2) 
They had need [the Shepherd said] to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God, except by putting away the mortality of their former life. These also, then, who had fallen asleep, received the seal of the Son of God, and entered into the kingdom of God. For, [he said,] before a man bears the name of the Son of God, he is dead. But when he receives the seal, he puts mortality aside and again receives life. The seal, therefore, is the water. They go down into the water dead [in sin], and come out of it alive. (ibid 9:16:2-4)

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)
Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)

ST. THEOPHILUS OF ANTIOCH (c. A.D. 181)
Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration -- all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God. (To Autolycus 2:16)

ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)
"And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)

TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)
A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)
...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)

ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (ante A.D. 202)
When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal...."and sons all of the Most High" [Psalm 82:6]. This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins; a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted; an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation -- that is, by which we see God clearly; and we call that perfection which leaves nothing lacking. Indeed, if a man know God, what more does he need? Certainly it were out of place to call that which is not complete a true gift of God's grace. Because God is perfect, the gifts He bestows are perfect. (The Instructor of Children 1:6:26:1)

RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)
But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)

ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)
But afterwards, when the stain of my past life had been washed away by means of the water of re-birth, a light from above poured itself upon my chastened and now pure heart; afterwards through the Spirit which is breathed from heaven, a second birth made of me a new man... Thus it had to be acknowledged that what was of the earth and was born of the flesh and had lived submissive to sins, had now begun to be of God, inasmuch as the Holy Spirit was animating it. (To Donatus 4)
[When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)
[It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 72[73]:21)

ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. A.D. 350)
If any man does not receive Baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive the kingdom....for the Savior calls martyrdom a Baptism (cf. Mark 10:38) ...Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and come up made alive in righteousness. (Catechetical Lectures 3:10,12)
Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul....When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter.
And He says, "Unless a man be born again" -- and He adds the words "of water and of the Spirit" -- "he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven.
A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it.

ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)
The Lord was baptized, not to be cleansed Himself but to cleanse the waters, so that those waters, cleansed by the flesh of Christ which knew no sin, might have the power of Baptism. Whoever comes, therefore, to the washing of Christ lays aside his sins. (Commentary on the Gospel of Luke 2:83)
The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism -- Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)
You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for "unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On the Mysteries 4:20)

Do you really believe that any of these writers thought baptism was not essential, that it was just a symbol of what already occurred?


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## centerpin fan (Feb 13, 2010)

Although not an ECF, Martin Luther has an interesting take on baptism.  This is taken from his "Large Catechism" (hat tip to Big7 who mentioned it in the other thread.)

"In these words you must note, in the first place, that here stand God's commandment and institution, lest we doubt that Baptism is divine, not devised nor invented by men. For as truly as I can say, No man has spun the Ten Commandments, the Creed, and the Lord's Prayer out of his head, but they are revealed and given by God Himself, so also I can boast that Baptism is no human trifle, but instituted by God Himself, moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved, lest any one regard it as a trifling matter, like putting on a new red coat. For it is of the greatest importance that we esteem Baptism excellent, glorious, and exalted, for which we contend and fight chiefly, because the world is now so full of sects clamoring that Baptism is an external thing, and that external things are of no benefit. But let it be ever so much an external thing here stand God's Word and command which institute, establish, and confirm Baptism. But what God institutes and commands cannot be a vain, but must be a most precious thing, though in appearance it were of less value than a straw. 

... In the second place, since we know now what Baptism is, and how it is to be regarded, we must also learn why and for what purpose it is instituted; that is, what it profits, gives and works. And this also we cannot discern better than from the words of Christ above quoted: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Therefore state it most simply thus, that the power, work, profit, fruit, and end of Baptism is this, namely, to save. For no one is baptized in order that he may become a prince, but, as the words declare, that he be saved. But to be saved, we know, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death, and the devil, and to enter into the kingdom of Christ, and to live with Him forever...."

You can read the whole thing here.  It's really excellent.

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/catechism/web/cat-13.html


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## possum steak (Feb 13, 2010)

to the OP, are you a Oneness Pentecostal? I grew up in it & got out of it in 1997.

Let me ask you this, when you received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, did you sell all of your possessions?
 If not, then later in in chapter 2 it said ALL the believers sold all of the possessions & gave to the church as needed.

Just because they spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost does NOT mean you make a dooctrine out of it. You can't do that with tongues no more than you can with whether or not we sold our possessions.

Baptism, we should do it out of obedience, not to be saved. We are saved by Grace through Faith, not Water Baptism. If one were to get saved today & was going to get baptized the next day, but got killed tonight without being baptized, that believer will be saved.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 13, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> First, take a look at these scriptures:
> 
> Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.  - John 3:5
> 
> ...



I haven't read some of these in many years.

Thanks for the post.  These historical writings say a lot.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 13, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> Although not an ECF, Martin Luther has an interesting take on baptism.  This is taken from his "Large Catechism" (hat tip to Big7 who mentioned it in the other thread.)
> 
> "In these words you must note, in the first place, that here stand God's commandment and institution, lest we doubt that Baptism is divine, not devised nor invented by men. For as truly as I can say, No man has spun the Ten Commandments, the Creed, and the Lord's Prayer out of his head, but they are revealed and given by God Himself, so also I can boast that Baptism is no human trifle, but instituted by God Himself, moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved, lest any one regard it as a trifling matter, like putting on a new red coat. For it is of the greatest importance that we esteem Baptism excellent, glorious, and exalted, for which we contend and fight chiefly, because the world is now so full of sects clamoring that Baptism is an external thing, and that external things are of no benefit. But let it be ever so much an external thing here stand God's Word and command which institute, establish, and confirm Baptism. But what God institutes and commands cannot be a vain, but must be a most precious thing, though in appearance it were of less value than a straw.
> 
> ...





thank you centerfan pin...  i am glad you posted this.  i always new the ECH's were off base... but i didnt know  they were slap out of their mind...

its amazing that you could have gone just a little further back in time and got all of the necessary writings on baptism that you would ever need ever!  and it was all infallible...  and those folks would have all been anointed by God directly.  HS filled.  talking with God, walking with God. and actually writing the new testament...  you know 'em.... Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, John and others...  they were infallible and perfect in every word they wrote... unlike every man who has come down the pike after them, who come up with their own personal interpretation instead of allowing the Bible to interpret itself....  great work!

but you have settled with folks who were not there. who did not speak to God or Jesus and are not infallible and their interpretation of the Scripture could be just as screwed up as my 4 month old daughters interpretation,
and could be even worse than hers...

you have accomplished a major feat... i used to be in the mindset these ECH's were a little wacky with their beliefs...  
and i always wanted to research them in greater detail....
now i dont have to...  their heresies have been made public and they speak for themselves.... thank you centerfan pin...

have a Guinness on me!


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## Ronnie T (Feb 14, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> thank you centerfan pin...  i am glad you posted this.  i always new the ECH's were off base... but i didnt know  they were slap out of their mind...
> 
> its amazing that you could have gone just a little further back in time and got all of the necessary writings on baptism that you would ever need ever!  and it was all infallible...  and those folks would have all been anointed by God directly.  HS filled.  talking with God, walking with God. and actually writing the new testament...  you know 'em.... Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, John and others...  they were infallible and perfect in every word they wrote... unlike every man who has come down the pike after them, who come up with their own personal interpretation instead of allowing the Bible to interpret itself....  great work!
> 
> ...




Some day, you and I will find out from the Slain Lamb if He really meant what He said in His great commission to His apostles and to us?
Want we?

Don't get too high-and-mighty.
You might just be wrong.

The Pharisees were, and never knew it.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 14, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Some day, you and I will find out from the Slain Lamb if He really meant what He said in His great commission to His apostles and to us?
> Want we?
> 
> Don't get too high-and-mighty.
> ...



Yeah the pharisees required things of people that Christ resolved on the cross. They required you to do this and that, but Christ done it all...He said it is finished.
He died for our sins, requires nothing else...we are forgiven. The pharisees  required something else to be done. 
Don't be legalistic by the OT....Jesus did it all....He was the final lamb for atonement.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 14, 2010)

Let's see, what does the Bible say???????????

Mark 16:16  “He who believes and is baptized will be saved “
How bout this  "He who believes and is save will be baptized."
How bout this  "He who believe will be saved, but he doesn't have to be baptized."

I choose the first one.
And I'm concerned for those who've changed it.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 14, 2010)

mtnwoman said:


> Yeah the pharisees required things of people that Christ resolved on the cross. They required you to do this and that, but Christ done it all...He said it is finished.
> He died for our sins, requires nothing else...we are forgiven. The pharisees  required something else to be done.
> Don't be legalistic by the OT....Jesus did it all....He was the final lamb for atonement.



No, the Pharisees took the simple Laws of God and changed them.  I've only suggest that we do what we've been told.  You've said we don't have to.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 14, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Don't get too high-and-mighty.
> You might just be wrong.
> 
> The Pharisees were, and never knew it.




Right, they never knew....they were wrong, high and mighty....according to the flesh

They never knew mercy and grace and they never knew the blood of Christ. They knew the blood for atonement in the OT, but they never knew Christ and His atonement for our sins. Don't be part of the pharasees....they condemed the teaching of Christ...I am the way, the truth and the light.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 14, 2010)

I'm going to have to stay out of his baptism stuff.

You people are smart enough to deal with your own beliefs.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 14, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> No, the Pharisees took the simple Laws of God and changed them.  I've only suggest that we do what we've been told.  You've said we don't have to.



No I haven't said we don't have to abide by the commandments of Christ....ie communion...drink His blood? Eat His flesh? Baptized in water instead of the blood?
We don't really eat His flesh, even though He asks us to, we don't really drink His blood, like He asks us to...most of us are baptized spritually in the sin removing blood, that is represented by water.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 14, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> I'm going to have to stay out of his baptism stuff.
> 
> You people are smart enough to deal with your own beliefs.



I agree....I'm baptized because Christ asks us to. I'm also washed in the blood....even though I've never actually been washed in the blood in the flesh..have you? Water baptism represents that....I'm washed in the blood of the lamb via water baptism. But I believed first, just like everyone in scripture did. IF you believe in ME, be baptized.
I believed first and then baptized and I take communion, which isn't blood or flesh, it's only representative of.


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## earl (Feb 14, 2010)

''We don't really eat His flesh, even though He asks us to, we don't really drink His blood, like He asks us to...''

That is a good thing. You would end up sharing a cell block with Jeffery.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 14, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> thank you centerfan pin...



Centerfan pin?  ‘Sup with that?  It’s centerpin fan – big difference.

BH, I don’t believe that baptism is essential because some 2nd or 3rd century Christian writer said so.  I believe baptism is essential because Jesus and the apostles said so.  

The writings of the ECF’s are not scripture.  They are not inspired.  They are not infallible.  I’ve said this repeatedly.  

Their writings are useful, though, because they show us what the early church believed and practiced.  It’s obvious from the passages above that the ECF’s believed that baptism is not a symbol.  It is essential to salvation.  They did not just make this up.  They got it from the scriptures.  Although I didn’t highlight that part, they usually quoted scripture as support for what they believed.  (John 3:5 is often cited.)

You believe that Jesus and the apostles taught baptism is just a symbol and not essential to salvation.  Then, those “wacky” ECF’s stepped in, misinterpreted scripture, and taught heresy.  Let’s just think this through.  If this is true, then:


1)  Within a generation or so of the death of the apostles, the entire church completely reversed its position on the core doctrine of baptism.

2)  Not only did they completely reverse their position, but nobody called them on it.  Nobody stood up and said, “Hey, baptism is just a symbol.  Remember?  That’s what the apostles taught us.”  Irenaeus, who wrote an entire book called _Against Heresies_, never mentioned this heresy.  (As a matter of fact, Irenaeus is quoted above saying that Naaman’s baptism which saved him is a symbol of our baptism that saves us.)

3)  The church everywhere taught this heresy, and the truth about baptism was unknown for the next 1,500 years.

4)  Then (miraculously) some reformer (not Martin Luther, obviously) began teaching the “truth” again:  that baptism is just a symbol.  It has nothing to do with salvation. 


Do you really believe any of this is true?  It is true that some of the reformers taught that baptism is just a symbol, but this is an innovation.  It is not apostolic doctrine.

BTW, don’t be so quick to dismiss Martin Luther.  If it weren’t for Martin Luther, you’d be on some Catholic bulletin board posting in a thread titled, “Who is your favorite Pope?”

I know you could not care less about what Martin Luther said.  After all, he lived before 1900, so he obviously had no idea what he was talking about.  I, on the other hand, think this quote from him is just devastating to your position:

“_… Baptism is no human trifle, but that it was established by God Himself. Moreover, He earnestly and solemnly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. No one is to think that it is an optional matter like putting on a red coat. It is of greatest importance that we hold Baptism in high esteem as something splendid and glorious. The reason why we are striving and battling so strenuously for this view of Baptism is that the world nowadays is full of sects that loudly proclaim that Baptism is merely an external form and that external forms are useless.... Although Baptism is indeed performed by human hands, yet it is truly God’s own action…”_


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## Ronnie T (Feb 14, 2010)

Centerpen fan,
This has been a good discussion although it's been frustrating for me.  A computer keyboard is a terrible device for talking about written text.
My greatest frustration has come when I see Christians doing anything they can to be able to stand by their beliefs.

When faced with a scripture that told Paul to "arise and be baptized to wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord"  you get an immediate response, "Yeah, but there's a verse over here that says we're saved by grace".

That's a clear indication that a large group of believers in Jesus Christ are chosers.  They decide what's fact, then they find the scripture to back it up.  All other scripture then become suspect.

Many of the people involved in the discussion still believe you and I think we are saved because we got baptized.  Over and over again they've missed our posts that spoke of God's grace and mercy.

Don't ever stop learning from God's word.  Like you, 35 years ago my belief's were distorted.  I had been taught the proper way to use God's word to back up my beliefs.  I pray I no longer do that.

Galatians 3:27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

1 Peter 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Eph 2:8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

*As with all God's words, these verses belong together.
There are no problems in the scriptures.  As long as one listens and claims them all.

.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 14, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Centerpen fan,
> This has been a good discussion although it's been frustrating for me.  A computer keyboard is a terrible device for talking about written text.
> My greatest frustration has come when I see Christians doing anything they can to be able to stand by their beliefs.
> 
> ...



Amen.

Yes, the discussion has been good, but it's frustrated me as well.  It's not just overlooking plain statements like "baptism now saves you" in 1 Peter 3:21, but it's the belief that there's a conflict in the salvation message.  As I said in the other thread, it's not "water versus blood" or "belief versus baptism".

On a more positive note, I know several people have mentioned that these threads have forced them to go back to the scriptures and study this out.  I suspect there are others who have done the same but just did not post.




Ronnie T said:


> That's a clear indication that a large group of believers in Jesus Christ are chosers.  They decide what's fact, then they find the scripture to back it up.  All other scripture then become suspect.



This reminds me of something I read recently:

_"... it is not Scripture that teaches man, but on the contrary, man foists upon Scripture whatever content he desires."_


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 14, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> Amen.
> 
> Yes, the discussion has been good, but it's frustrated me as well.  It's not just overlooking plain statements like "baptism now saves you" in 1 Peter 3:21, but it's the belief that there's a conflict in the salvation message.  As I said in the other thread, it's not "water versus blood" or "belief versus baptism".
> 
> ...




yall are both way off base with this water baptism thing. 
i pray God opens your eyes.  adding any work of man to the shed blood of Christ destroys His free grace and is totally dangerous...

this is what happens when men follow men, pastors and churchs, instead of the Word.

hence why i hate churchianity and religion both.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 14, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> yall are both way off base with this water baptism thing.



This "water baptism thing" (as you call it):

“… is no human trifle, but that it was established by God Himself. …” - Martin Luther

Also from ML:

"... The reason why we are striving and battling so strenuously for this view of Baptism is that the world (and internet) nowadays is full of sects that loudly proclaim that Baptism is merely an external form and that external forms are useless...."  

OK, I edited that one slightly, but you get the picture.  Sorry to keep harping on the good Dr. Luther, but his thoughts on the subject are truly inspiring!


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 14, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> This "water baptism thing" (as you call it):
> 
> “… is no human trifle, but that it was established by God Himself. …” - Martin Luther
> 
> ...



you're missing the point cf.  nobody here has said that water is not commanded and is not important.  we're saying it has nothing to do with salvation.  once i repented, and was baptized with the HS, the first thing i sought was water baptism... not because it has anything to do with salvation but because i want to obey the commands of Jesus and get water baptized... but had i died before getting dunked i would not have missed out on heaven just because i didnt make it to the "pool" in time...  that is legalism... 

maybe you (all of us..) should focus on the Word and what it teaches (it does teach itself...) instead of what the ecf's OR the reformers taught. the Bible will NEVER lead anyone astray... and God said ALL men are liars... God never told us to put faith in men and their commentaries of His Word... He said put your faith in Him and never rely on men... i know you wont believe this... but the biggest enemies to the Christian are the leaders inside of Christendom...


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## Ronnie T (Feb 14, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> yall are both way off base with this water baptism thing.
> i pray God opens your eyes.  adding any work of man to the shed blood of Christ destroys His free grace and is totally dangerous...
> 
> this is what happens when men follow men, pastors and churchs, instead of the Word.
> ...



I don't know why Jesus chose water baptism to be a requirement.  But He did.

I got more news for you.  Whether you'll ever acknowledge it, you received the Holy Spirit during your water baptism, not before.


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## thedeacon (Feb 14, 2010)

Baptism was added to Acts 3:38 because it is a command not a suggestion. 

Same as Matt 28:19
1 Pet 3:21
Gal 3:27
Acts 22:16 
Acts 10:48
Mark 16:16
Rom. 6:3
Mk. 1:5


We should read about all the conversions in Acts, carefully and prayerfully. 

I don't even get the argument. It's there, I read it over and over and yes, it's still there.

If I told you to sing and dance and I will give you a million $ if you choose not to sing you won't get it. Would you be singing and dancing or would you be just singing.

You have to ask yourself, How important is baptism to God, and why is Baptism important to God.

We all have to make up our minds on everything but we have to do it to suite God and not ourselves.

1st Pet. 3:21 says that we should study to show ourselves approved of God, so I ask the question is the study of God's word something that God requires or is it something that was just suggested.

When we read the bible we must read it and take it for what it says. 

The desire to please God in every way is the kind of love that God wants us to have.

To argue this subject over and over is useless. In my opinion we have made salvation to easy and on the other hand we have made it to hard.

The fact is we just don't like changing our minds about anything and religion is at the top of the list. It took me 30 years to change my mind about some things, sometimes I think of some things I have said in the pullpit, in front of an adult bible study, but where I feel the most pain is some things I have taught our youth.

God is a loving God and on the day of Judgement we will be judged by a just God. When I get there I will be baptized because I feel that it is a command of God. Thats good enough for me. In fact we had 4 baptisms at our congregation this week. It was a very spiritual time for the whole church. Four new souls were added to the church through baptism.

I don't feel the need anymore to condemn someone to the heat of the dark side but while I am on earth I do feel the need to teach something that seems to be important to Jesus himself and was taught to us by the inspired men of God who was prepared to teach us by Christ himself. (and I don't mean just baptism)

We are not saved because we believe, or because we have repented or confessed our sins. We are not saved because we have been baptized. We are saved because we have OBEYED THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. 

Its just that simple and its just that complicated. God is a just and loving God but he is strict concerning his commandments, and that is important to me and thats all that is important to me.

I don't apologize for my beliefs, in fact I am proud that I was able to open my mind and grow. I think a person's growth is just as important as his faith because if you don't grow you are fooling youself about your faith.

Baptism is very necerssary not because it is my opinion but because it is important to God.  

EVERY JOT AND TITTLE


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## centerpin fan (Feb 14, 2010)

BH, trust me on this:  I understand your position completely.  I believed it myself for many years.  What I've been trying to say is that NOBODY believed it before the 16th century.  It's an innovation that not even Luther accepted.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 14, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> you're missing the point cf.  nobody here has said that water is not commanded and is not importantYes they have.  we're saying it has nothing to do with salvation.  once i repented, and was baptized with the HS, the first thing i sought was water baptism(But, if you'll go back to Acts 2 you'll clearly see that according to Peter, all those people who responded to his sermon would receive the Holy Spirit AFTER they repented and were baptized.  Now it wasn't me that said that, it was Peter.  It wasn't my Churchanity, as you refer to it, it was the Spirit inspired Peter who said it.  "Repent and be baptized, and then you'll receive the Holy Spirit".  That's what Peter said.  Now, Bh, you're going to tell me that Peter didn't mean it that way aren't you?  You might even say that there's a problem in the interpretation, but there's not.  The problem is this, that verse doesn't say what many people wish it said.... But as my daughter says, "that's not the way I roll')... not because it has anything to do with salvation but because i want to obey the commands of Jesus and get water baptized... but had i died before getting dunked i would not have missed out on heaven just because i didnt make it to the "pool" in time...  that is legalism...
> Did you know that there is no place in the gospel that says one gets saved and then gets baptized
> 
> maybe you (all of us..) should focus on the Word and what it teaches (it does teach itself...) instead of what the ecf's OR the reformers taught. the Bible will NEVER lead anyone astray... and God said ALL men are liars... God never told us to put faith in men and their commentaries of His Word... He said put your faith in Him and never rely on men... i know you wont believe this... but the biggest enemies to the Christian are the leaders inside of Christendom...



I don't know why I responded to this.  Honestly, I don't want to discuss this subject with you anymore.
I keep hoping that someone will "see it".  The light bulb will flip on and they'll say, "Oh yea, baptism isn't a work".  It's a tool that God chose to use.
I don't completely understand it, but I certainly know what the scripture say.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 14, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> I don't know why Jesus chose water baptism to be a requirement.  But He did.
> 
> I got more news for you.  Whether you'll ever acknowledge it, you received the Holy Spirit during your water baptism, not before.



just like the thief on the cross, huh? 

i am so glad you told me when i received the Holy Spirit...  what a relief!... thank you!  maybe you should tell all the believers in the forum when they received the Holy Spirit...  maybe you should start reading palms...  since they dont really know because God doesn't know how to tell them when they are saved...  

while you're at it.. go ahead and tell Jesus that He screwed up because He didn't really complete the work on the cross.... He only did 95% of the work on the cross... we still have to get a bath to go to heaven...

Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;

it's no wonder why Jesus said the road to heaven was narrow and there would be few who find it... 

heresy. absolute heresy.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 14, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> bh, trust me on this:  I understand your position completely.  I believed it myself for many years.  What i've been trying to say is that nobody believed it before the 16th century.  It's an innovation that not even luther accepted.



i dont care about the early church heretics, cf!


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 14, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> I don't know why I responded to this.  Honestly, I don't want to discuss this subject with you anymore.
> I keep hoping that someone will "see it".  The light bulb will flip on and they'll say, "Oh yea, baptism isn't a work".  It's a tool that God chose to use.
> I don't completely understand it, but I certainly know what the scripture say.



no you dont completely understand it... you dont understand it at all. you're adding to the Word of God and adding to the blood of Christ...  you need to "see it"...  i see it just fine.  mountainwoman sees it just fine...  rjcruiser sees it just fine...  the Bible is clear....  there was a poll on this and you LOST!!!!

the majority said water baptism is NOT necessary for salvation... the Bible says water baptism is not necessary for salvation...  you need to see it...

water baptism necessary for heaven is heresy and blasphemy all rolled up into one...


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## whome (Feb 14, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> no you dont completely understand it... you dont understand it at all. you're adding to the Word of God and adding to the blood of Christ...  you need to "see it"...  i see it just fine.  mountainwoman sees it just fine...  rjcruiser sees it just fine...  the Bible is clear....  there was a poll on this and you LOST!!!!
> 
> the majority said water baptism is NOT necessary for salvation... the Bible says water baptism is not necessary for salvation...  you need to see it...
> Solid argument here... follow the masses cause they are always rights... see where that gets you.
> ...



Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man, 
But its end is the way of death.
I'll choose to be outside the "norm" on this one...


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## centerpin fan (Feb 14, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> i dont care about the early church heretics, cf!



I know you don't, but you're not the only one reading this thread.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 14, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> there was a poll on this and you LOST!!!!
> 
> the majority said water baptism is NOT necessary for salvation...




Oh, please ... as if that matters in the least.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 15, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> the Bible says water baptism is not necessary for salvation...




No, one of the reformers did -- and you bought it.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 15, 2010)

whome said:


> Proverbs 14:12
> There is a way that seems right to a man,
> But its end is the way of death.
> I'll choose to be outside the "norm" on this one...



twist and turn and twist and turn... thats what you folks do when the Word destroys your interpretation of the Bible...

you can add to the Word all you want... at your own peril.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 15, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> No, one of the reformers did -- and you bought it.



the only thing I bought is what is taught in the Bible.  I dont buy what the early church pagans taught.  i dont buy what osteen says. or hinn. i dont buy what any man says unless it lines up with the Bible...  thats the foundation of the Bible... dont trust men ...  trust God... thats what I do...

i will die one day and will have to go before God and explain why i trusted Him instead of heretics like augustine, origen and jerome... i cant wait!


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## whome (Feb 15, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> twist and turn and twist and turn... thats what you folks do when the Word destroys your interpretation of the Bible...
> 
> you can add to the Word all you want... at your own peril.



Yeah, show me where I've added to the word... and how might the Word destroy my interpretation of the bible?


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 15, 2010)

whome said:


> Yeah, show me where I've added to the word... and how might the Word destroy my interpretation of the bible?



the Bible is not for private interpretation, you know that.  my 5 year old knows that.  you are taking 2, 3 verses and formulating your own interpretation of those 2,3 verses...
while ignoring the whole of the Bible on salvation.  the Bible could not be more clear than it is on salvation...

salvation is a free gift (grace) that you and i dont deserve.

you are adding water baptism to salvation.

Gal 1:8,9 is clear. those who preach another Gospel is cursed.  water that saves is another Gospel.

Rev 22:19 is clear... those who add to the Word of God are cursed.  saying that water saves is adding to the Word.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 15, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> just like the thief on the cross, huh?
> 
> i am so glad you told me when i received the Holy Spirit...  what a relief!... thank you!  maybe you should tell all the believers in the forum when they received the Holy Spirit...  maybe you should start reading palms...(You, my man, are unreachable.  Acts 2:38 told the people there that they would receive the Holy Spirit after they repented and were baptized.  Don't give me credit for telling you, the Holy Spirit Himself tells you, if you would listen)  since they dont really know because God doesn't know how to tell them when they are saved...
> 
> ...



I can't believe I'm quoting scripture that precisely backs up what I believe and you're the one calling me a heretic.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 15, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> thats the foundation of the Bible... dont trust men ...




You should read 2 Timothy 2 sometime.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 15, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> I can't believe I'm quoting scripture that precisely backs up what I believe and you're the one calling me a heretic.




You're correct.  He's unreachable.


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## whome (Feb 15, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> the Bible is not for private interpretation, you know that.  my 5 year old knows that.  you are taking 2, 3 verses and formulating your own interpretation of those 2,3 verses...
> while ignoring the whole of the Bible on salvation.  the Bible could not be more clear than it is on salvation...
> 
> salvation is a free gift (grace) that you and i dont deserve.
> ...



I will ask, which 2 or 3 verses?


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## Ronnie T (Feb 15, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> no you dont completely understand it... you dont understand it at all. you're adding to the Word of God and adding to the blood of Christ...  you need to "see it"...  i see it just fine.  mountainwoman sees it just fine...  rjcruiser sees it just fine...  the Bible is clear....  there was a poll on this and you LOST!!!!
> I didn't lose, Christ's church loses.
> 
> the majority said water baptism is NOT necessary for salvation... the Bible says water baptism is not necessary for salvation...  I've already showed you scriptural evidence that baptism is part of salvation.  NOW, you show me a scripture than says baptism comes after salvation.  you need to see it...
> ...



I don't care is everyone in the world except me decided that baptism wasn't necessary to go to heaven, I still would not change my belief until God's word proved it to me.

By the way, once again, as I've done at least 10 times, here's when the believers at pentacost received the Holy Spirit.
"38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 15, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> no you dont completely understand it... you dont understand it at all. you're adding to the Word of God and adding to the blood of Christ...  you need to "see it"...  i see it just fine.  mountainwoman sees it just fine...  rjcruiser sees it just fine...  the Bible is clear....  there was a poll on this and you LOST!!!!
> 
> the majority said water baptism is NOT necessary for salvation... the Bible says water baptism is not necessary for salvation...  you need to see it...
> 
> water baptism necessary for heaven is heresy and blasphemy all rolled up into one...




The Bible says no such thing.     Men say that.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 15, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> the Bible is not for private interpretation, you know that.  my 5 year old knows that.  you are taking 2, 3 verses and formulating your own interpretation of those 2,3 verses...
> while ignoring the whole of the Bible on salvation.  the Bible could not be more clear than it is on salvation...
> 
> salvation is a free gift (grace) that you and i dont deserve.
> ...



Since you quoted from Galatins, here's another

Gal 3:
22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 
23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 
24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 
25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 
27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 15, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> the Bible is not for private interpretation, you know that.  my 5 year old knows that.I'm beginning to think I'm carrying on this discussion with your 5 year old!)  you are taking 2, 3 verses and formulating your own interpretation of those 2,3 verses...The verses I'm providing don't actually need any interpreting)
> while ignoring the whole of the Bible on salvation.  the Bible could not be more clear than it is on salvation...
> 
> salvation is a free gift (grace) that you and i dont deserve.I totally agree
> ...



I certainly hope I haven't said anything that isn't scriptural.  I don't believe I have.  If I did, it's my brains problem.
If you would show it to me I'll correct it and admit my error.


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## Israel (Feb 15, 2010)

What is salvation?
Who are the ones to whom the Lord says "depart from me, I never knew you..."
Did they not call him Lord?
Did they not recognize him at his appearing?
Did they not have faith in his name?

Perhaps it was that they never really cared to know him.
Perhaps when we are so sure he will only be saying this to all "the others" we may not know him at all?


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