# Red wolves



## redneck_billcollector

This subject has been discussed a few times on this board but there are some questions that have been left unasked and therefor unanswered.  I have trapped coyotes out west and in SOWEGA and I am here to tell you, a number of the coyotes I have harvested in SOWEGA ain't the varmits from out west.  We all know that in colder climates, one of the ways mammals adapt is to grow bigger, well, SOWEGA ain't a colder climate that out west where I have caught coyotes, yet they are bigger here.  In montana and the northern rockies, the yotes are bigger than the south texas variaty, yet here they can be bigger than the northern rocky yotes.   

Now my question for anyone, but especially for any wildlife biologist on this board.  Has there been any genetic studies on the larger coyotes from SOWEGA and other areas of the south east (or east in general) to see what the differences are with the seemingly smaller in stature western parent population?

I have also read in numerous scientific papers that the red wolf is nothing more than a cross between gray wolves and coyotes that occurred as the last ice age ended and coyotes expanded their range. The papers (at least a good number of them) point out that interbreeding between the two is not uncommon when one of the populations is stressed (almost always the gray wolf).  My understanding of why red wolf reintroduction has not been widely attempted is because they will interbreed with any local coyote populations rendering the attempt DOA.  The next time I catch a big yote (I use the yakee name for big coyotes, "brush wolf")  I might see if I can get some agency to do some genetic tests, thing is though, I don't want to be charged with violation of the US Endangered Species Act.


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## Quercus Alba

redneck_billcollector said:


> This subject has been discussed a few times on this board but there are some questions that have been left unasked and therefor unanswered.  I have trapped coyotes out west and in SOWEGA and I am here to tell you, a number of the coyotes I have harvested in SOWEGA ain't the varmits from out west.  We all know that in colder climates, one of the ways mammals adapt is to grow bigger, well, SOWEGA ain't a colder climate that out west where I have caught coyotes, yet they are bigger here.  In monatana and the northern rockies, the yotes are bigger than the south texas variaty, yet here they can be bigger than the northern rocky yotes.
> 
> Now my question for anyone, but especially for any wildlife biologist on this board.  Has there been any genetic studies on the larger coyotes from SOWEGA and other areas of the south east (or east in general) to see what the differences are with the seemingly smaller in stature western parent population?
> 
> I have also read in numerous scientific papers that the red wolf is nothing more than a cross between gray wolves and coyotes that occurred as the last ice age ended and coyotes expanded their range. The papers (at least a good number of them) point out that interbreeding between the two is not uncommon when one of the populations is stressed (almost always the gray wolf).  My understanding of why red wolf reintroduction has not been widely attempted is because they will interbreed with any local coyote populations rendering the attempt DOA.  The next time I catch a big yote (I use the yakee name for big coyotes, "brush wolf")  I might see if I can get some agency to do some genetic tests, thing is though, I don't want to be charged with violation of the US Endangered Species Act.



I cannot point you to or reference any specific studies, but what you are thinking is most likely correct. As coyotes expanded east, they most certainly bred with the already dwindling red wolf population. When they began the the red-wolf program they went to a place near the Singer Tract in Lousiana I do believe. The same place where James Tanner studied Ivory Bills. Out of the huge number of coyotes that they trapped they only selected a handful for the breeding programs based on mostly morphological characteristics. The rest were determined to be coyotes or a mix there of. 

Another very interesting point that I never hear mentioned by others is that there seems to be more uniquely colored coyotes in the southeast. I believe it was Mark Catesby that originally described the red wolf species, and named them _Canis nigra_ which was later changed. He did so because many that he encountered were of this black coloration and this may be why you see so many coyotes like this today. 

Also, you are correct about the difficulties with the red wolf re-introduction. I worked for a little while in the region at Pocosin Lakes NWR. The red wolf team at Alligator River NWR down the road tried very hard to deal with the coyote problem. 

Hope this might help or be of interest. I'm a certified associate wildlife biologist who has always been interested in this topic. You may also consider contacting the Red Wolf Coalition with additional questions. The lady that runs it would love to talk with you I would think.

Hutch Collins


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## Jeff Raines

Interesting and educational.....good thread


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## kayaker

There are supposedly 19 subspecies of coyotes and 16 of them live in the U.S.


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## redneck_billcollector

Thanks for the response Mr. Collins, I have talked to some of the people with the Red Wolf Coallition before, they were very helpful in answering some of my questions.  Unfortunately they were not able to answer my questions about genetics at the time, of course that was years ago before genetic studies were as "easy" and common as they are now.  I figured if some had been done I would have stumbled across the studies in those suits trying to keep red wolves from being listed.  

Another interesting trait I have noticed at times, at least in the lower flint river drainage, is that our "brush wolves" will form packs which is not a common trait for yotes out west.  I have encountered packs before especially camping in early winter. I have also caught numerous large brush wolves in one night in relatively small areas indicating they were in a pack situtation (especially around dead cattle, the reason I think this is because yotes are territorial just like other canines).  I have always wondered if there wasn't residual populations of red wolves on some of the larger quail plantations and river swamps in South Ga. and once the deer started coming back in the 70's those residual populations started to respond.  The late 70s is about the time that the yote population started making its appearance known down here, and some of those yotes were huge (the fur market was high back then and I spent alot of time trapping and catching them).  

If I were a young man and starting my life now, I think it would be an interesting thesis to explore if I was a student in a grad program in wildlife management/biology.  If there are any students out there or professors on this board with an intrest in this subject, please pursue it, I would love to see the data.


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## redneck_billcollector

Kayaker, I have read about the numerous subtypes of yotes before and I realize they are out there.  But, there are no historic populations of coyotes in the east, they are a new occurance (at least down here) which happened in my life time.  It was big news when the first ones were killed in Terrell and Lee Counties back in the 70s.  There was speculation that fox hunters in Doolly county released some because of a low population of fox to run with their hounds (I always thought that was funny cause we were catching tons of fox).  I caught my first yote  in Worth Co. along the flint river and it was a monster, I did not know what to think, I kept the pelt for years, I lost it during one of my moves after a divorce.  It looked more like a small wolf pelt than a yote pelt.  I have also noticed that either you caught smaller yotes or larger yotes on various properties, which would seem to indicate that if they were wolfs they were keeping the yotes away.  I have read that if there is a healthy pack of red wolves they will do like the gray wolves and keep yotes out of their pack's range.


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## The Original Rooster

redneck_billcollector said:


> Thanks for the response Mr. Collins, I have talked to some of the people with the Red Wolf Coallition before, they were very helpful in answering some of my questions.  Unfortunately they were not able to answer my questions about genetics at the time, of course that was years ago before genetic studies were as "easy" and common as they are now.  I figured if some had been done I would have stumbled across the studies in those suits trying to keep red wolves from being listed.
> 
> Another interesting trait I have noticed at times, at least in the lower flint river drainage, is that our "brush wolves" will form packs which is not a common trait for yotes out west.  I have encountered packs before especially camping in early winter. I have also caught numerous large brush wolves in one night in relatively small areas indicating they were in a pack situtation (especially around dead cattle, the reason I think this is because yotes are territorial just like other canines).  I have always wondered if there wasn't residual populations of red wolves on some of the larger quail plantations and river swamps in South Ga. and once the deer started coming back in the 70's those residual populations started to respond.  The late 70s is about the time that the yote population started making its appearance known down here, and some of those yotes were huge (the fur market was high back then and I spent alot of time trapping and catching them).
> 
> If I were a young man and starting my life now, I think it would be an interesting thesis to explore if I was a student in a grad program in wildlife management/biology.  If there are any students out there or professors on this board with an intrest in this subject, please pursue it, I would love to see the data.



That's a thought provoking theory. I wonder if dna could verify it? It would certainly explain a lot.


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## redneck_billcollector

RoosterTodd said:


> That's a thought provoking theory. I wonder if dna could verify it? It would certainly explain a lot.



Over half of the red wolf population is in captivity so DNA  would be easy to obtain.  Heck they were able to get a DNA print on the panther killed in GA and determine where it was born and who its parents were.  Our population of yotes is a relatively new population so they could tell alot about it with an extensive DNA study.  The red wolf input would be less than 100 years old(east texas contact with yotes and wolves).

As had been said before, Chehaw Park in Albany has a pair of red wolves, I encourage anyone interested in this issue to go check them out, I never really thought about this until I saw them and realized I have caught many a yote that you could not distinguish from those two in size, color and body shape. Others who have trapped around here say the same thing.


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## The Original Rooster

redneck_billcollector said:


> Over half of the red wolf population is in captivity so DNA  would be easy to obtain.  Heck they were able to get a DNA print on the panther killed in GA and determine where it was born and who its parents were.  Our population of yotes is a relatively new population so they could tell alot about it with an extensive DNA study.  The red wolf input would be less than 100 years old(east texas contact with yotes and wolves).
> 
> As had been said before, Chehaw Park in Albany has a pair of red wolves, I encourage anyone interested in this issue to go check them out, I never really thought about this until I saw them and realized I have caught many a yote that you could not distinguish from those two in size, color and body shape. Others who have trapped around here say the same thing.



It's funny you say that because I thought that same thing when I first saw them. Man, those are some big coyotes! Wait, they're red wolves?


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## NCHillbilly

I read a study a few years ago that someone did and determined that most eastern coyotes have a degree of wolf DNA. They are definitely different from the western yotes-much, much, bigger, and more pack-oriented. There are some huge ones around here. Then again, we had a red wolf reintroduction in the Smokies several years ago. They supposedly rounded them all back up and took them away, but when you see 50-60 pound yotes that howl in deep bass voices, it makes you wonder.


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## chehawknapper

Since reading "The Travels of William Bartram" about 25 years ago, I have always thought that the black coloration showing up in the (to follow Jay's lead) brush wolves had to come from remnant populations of Red wolves in the southeast. I have never heard of a coyote showing a black coloration out west where they are native. If anyone else knows of black coyotes from somewhere out west I'ld like to hear it.


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## redneck_billcollector

chehawknapper said:


> Since reading "The Travels of William Bartram" about 25 years ago, I have always thought that the black coloration showing up in the (to follow Jay's lead) brush wolves had to come from remnant populations of Red wolves in the southeast. I have never heard of a coyote showing a black coloration out west where they are native. If anyone else knows of black coyotes from somewhere out west I'ld like to hear it.



We better be careful with all this talk Ben, 'fore ya know it some tree huggin' wolf lover will make it illegal to trap yotes in south Ga.  I have had the same thought as you, especially about 10 years ago when I got a black one that was HUGE just north of Baconton on the river.  It looked for all the world like some of the smaller wolves I saw when I lived up near King's Mountain (outside of Chickaloon) in Alaska.  

I hope what we are saying is true, just because it makes this area that much more wilder to me and I get to say "I have been a wolf trapper in my time."  That sounds a little bit more romantic than saying I was a varmit trapper......Oh yeah, I have never seen or heard of a black yote during all my western travels, I have seen some lighter than usual ones out west  though.

Ben, didn't you always want a Phd. in wildlife biology?  This would be a good thesis for you to pursue........Just think, you could be famous if you established a link between the two.


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## redneck_billcollector

Just looked at some of the photos of black yotes trapped this year over on the trapping board, I really think you are right Ben.


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## The Original Rooster

chehawknapper said:


> Since reading "The Travels of William Bartram" about 25 years ago, I have always thought that the black coloration showing up in the (to follow Jay's lead) brush wolves had to come from remnant populations of Red wolves in the southeast. I have never heard of a coyote showing a black coloration out west where they are native. If anyone else knows of black coyotes from somewhere out west I'ld like to hear it.





redneck_billcollector said:


> Just looked at some of the photos of black yotes trapped this year over on the trapping board, I really think you are right Ben.



That's makes perfect sense. Where else could a gene for that particular color come from?


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## Resica

RoosterTodd said:


> That's makes perfect sense. Where else could a gene for that particular color come from?



Where did the gene come from that was in the red wolves?


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## redneck_billcollector

Bartram noted plenty of black colored red wolves, black coloration was not that uncommon in red wolves...sounds funny, huh?  One of the earlier scientific names for red wolves alluded to black coloration, at least I remember reading that somewhere, nigra or something along that line.
Apparently red wolves are not that different from their bigger cousins, the gray wolf, which as we all know it is not uncommon for them to be black.


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## redneck_billcollector

On Nat Geo Wild tonight there was a show about Taylor Mitchell, a 19 yo female killed by coyotes last year in Nova Scotia.  They got the three that killed her, they were healthy and apparently were not afraid of people.  DNA showed they were wolf / coyote hybrids.  Apparently the "eastern coyote" is a wolf, coyote cross and has evolved over the last 100 (or fewer) years and is a seperate species from the western coyote (at least according to the show).  They said eastern coyotes have broader skulls, broader snouts, larger bodies, hunt in packs to take larger game and can vary in coloration like the wolf side of their family tree. I reckon the term brush wolf is not an  improper moniker for them.

What I have read about red wolves is basically they are the same thing, but it happened around 10,000 years ago. It looks like they are re-evolving. How interesting that this conversation has been going on the past couple of days and it was on TV tonight.


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## redneck_billcollector

Here is an interesting article on the genotype for red wolves, at least in 1995 there was no genetic evidence of a red wolf distinct genotype, they even took samples from the 6 red wolf specimens at the Smithsonian.  
http://www.canids.org/PUBLICAT/CNDNEWS3/2conserv.htm
If I am reading this correctly the coyotes we have all come to know and love are dang near as much red wolf as the red wolves of times gone past.


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## fishfryer

Redneck Billcollector,You certainly write interesting threads. With your background and experience,it is a pleasure to read your thoughts. You express an idea,cite personal experiences that relate to it, and then give us some scientific data to chew on also. You are urging others to dig deeper into your subject,I personally wish you would. I further, hope to hear more on the subject, from you. My wife and I saw a really big coyote yesterday crossing a rural road here. This coyote/coydog made both of us think of German Shepherd ancestory. I'm fairly sure it was over 40 lbs.. As you have said, I never saw a coyote until the very early 1970s,now they are fairly common here. Thanks again for your thoughts.


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## j_seph

interesting


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## redneck_billcollector

interesting photo I took this past Saturday, curious as to yalls take on the make-up of this canine.


http://s1207.photobucket.com/albums...ck_billcollector/?action=view&current=006.jpg


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## Nicodemus

redneck_billcollector said:


> interesting photo I took this past Saturday, curious as to yalls take on the make-up of this canine.
> 
> 
> http://s1207.photobucket.com/albums...ck_billcollector/?action=view&current=006.jpg





Nice shot, Jay. Enjoyed our talk the other mornin`.  


Here`s a big one from Worth County I got in the early 80s.


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## redneck_billcollector

Nicodemus said:


> Nice shot, Jay. Enjoyed our talk the other mornin`.
> 
> 
> Here`s a big one from Worth County I got in the early 80s.



Enjoyed it too Nic, that there is one big.....brush wolf. You recall what he weighed?


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## Nicodemus

redneck_billcollector said:


> Enjoyed it too Nic, that there is one big.....brush wolf. You recall what he weighed?





I believe he was in excess of 50 pounds. I got him down by Wiregrass.


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## redneck_billcollector

I think I am gonna start calling the black wolf-like canines (what some call black coyotes) Florida wolves in honor of William Bartram.  Thanks for posting that link by the way on the other thread, it has been years since I read it.  Off topic, you would not happen to know what the "indian olive" is that he talks about do you?  The creeks apparently felt it conjurred up deer when they hunted them (they apparently carried them when they hunted for that reason), I wanna find me some for next deer season.


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## Nicodemus

redneck_billcollector said:


> I think I am gonna start calling the black wolf-like canines (what some call black coyotes) Florida wolves in honor of William Bartram.  Thanks for posting that link by the way on the other thread, it has been years since I read it.  Off topic, you would not happen to know what the "indian olive" is that he talks about do you?  The creeks apparently felt it conjurred up deer when they hunted them (they apparently carried them when they hunted for that reason), I wanna find me some for next deer season.





I have wondered that myself, because I don`t have a clue as to what that fruit might be. Ben might can shed some light on it for us.


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## Gary Mercer

Always carried a buckeye.  Old timer told me it would bring in deer.
Who knows, but I still have that thing.
Gary


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## JWT

Pretty interesting ,I got this one this yr running with two others!!


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## redneck_billcollector

That is a nice looking "florida wolf" you got there JWT.  You don't happen to recall its weight do you?


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## JWT

redneck_billcollector said:


> That is a nice looking "florida wolf" you got there JWT.  You don't happen to recall its weight do you?



I'm guessing 35 to 40 lbs,one of the others with it was a lot bigger, but it was regular phase!


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## Ohoopee Tusker

This is a great thread redneck_billcollector. I grew up spending as much time as possible on thousands of acres of unbroken remote property in mid-east Ga. I saw my first coyote there in 1981. The coyotes on this property are very aggressive and packs seem to be the norm. Over the years I've had them follow me to my stands in the pre-morning darkness. I once crossed an old logging road while being followed and when I returned after the hunt I counted 7 distinct sets of coyote tracks following me. Through the years two coyotes have been killed while chasing adult deer, one of the deer was also shot and gave every indication of being healthy. The handful of outdoorsmen that hunt the property have had similar experiences. I've always thought there was something different about these coyotes and your posts seem to explain alot.


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## redneck_billcollector

Ohoopee Tusker said:


> This is a great thread redneck_billcollector. I grew up spending as much time as possible on thousands of acres of unbroken remote property in mid-east Ga. I saw my first coyote there in 1981. The coyotes on this property are very aggressive and packs seem to be the norm. Over the years I've had them follow me to my stands in the pre-morning darkness. I once crossed an old logging road while being followed and when I returned after the hunt I counted 7 distinct sets of coyote tracks following me. Through the years two coyotes have been killed while chasing adult deer, one of the deer was also shot and gave every indication of being healthy. The handful of outdoorsmen that hunt the property have had similar experiences. I've always thought there was something different about these coyotes and your posts seem to explain alot.



I have noticed "pack" behavior for years.  I too have seen packs after grown deer and shot the biggest one I have ever seen out of a pack running deer on my property down in Mitchell County.


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## JWT

Just got back from a hunt in eastern,NC & I seen 2 of the biggest yotes ever!! They were huge! I was close to the refuge where the red wolves are at!! I was with 3 wildlife biologist in the truck& they said it was a cross breed!! IDK!!


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## SmokyMtnSmoke

Very interesting read here guys. Thanks for sharing your observations. It's good to know and be able to see back through time, so to speak, and look at a an eastern "brush wolf" and let common sense rule in that these are hybrid "hold overs" that have made it through to today, regardless if science can prove it. Very cool indeed.


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## chehawknapper

*Indian Olive*



redneck_billcollector said:


> I think I am gonna start calling the black wolf-like canines (what some call black coyotes) Florida wolves in honor of William Bartram.  Thanks for posting that link by the way on the other thread, it has been years since I read it.  Off topic, you would not happen to know what the "indian olive" is that he talks about do you?  The creeks apparently felt it conjurred up deer when they hunted them (they apparently carried them when they hunted for that reason), I wanna find me some for next deer season.



Osmanthus americanus, Devilwood. Evergreen, opposite leaved, dark blue-purple berries ripening August to Sept. We have a good many at Chehaw.


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## redneck_billcollector

chehawknapper said:


> Osmanthus americanus, Devilwood. Evergreen, opposite leaved, dark blue-purple berries ripening August to Sept. We have a good many at Chehaw.



How do they taste, or are they something you would rather not eat?


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## chehawknapper

Honestly, never tried them. Will have to check out the possibilities this year. I am not sure that they are considered edible. They are referred as wild or Indian olive because of the egg or olive shaped fruit.


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## chehawknapper

So far, I have not found any reference on the edible qualities of Devilwood. that is after checking over a dozen sources. If anyone else knows of anything, please chime in.


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## DEERFU

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...ds-coyotes-wolf-virginia-dna-animals-science/
 This article says the cross has been confirmed through DNA but it wasn't red wolves in the mix it was Great Lakes wolves. It also says the have been reported as far away as Alaska


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## chehawknapper

Jay, I can tell you precisely where you took that photo! By the way, Chehaw's red wolves have pups right now.


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## NG ALUM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_wolf

The link above is a very interesting read! Now Im starting to think I may have something more similar to mixbreed "brushwolves" than coyotes. I don't know where the idea that coyotes are solitaire creatures came from but they definately are not at my farm. I guarantee you that I could get a couple different packs of 5-10 howling tonight and we often see them running through the woods 3-5 at the time. I have only ever seen just one on 2 occasions. Also they do hit those low base notes when they get to howling and you'd swear there was a wolf in there somewhere. I shot a big male a couple weeks back that topped out at 60lbs! 

The article I provided the link to says that red wolves are 76-80% coyote and 24-20% grey wolf. IF thats the case there could be so much resemblance you don't know what you've got! Check it out!


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## waddler

chehawknapper said:


> So far, I have not found any reference on the edible qualities of Devilwood. that is after checking over a dozen sources. If anyone else knows of anything, please chime in.



http://www.pfaf.org/user/Plant.aspx?LatinName=Osmanthus+americana

http://www.pfaf.org/user/Search_Use.aspx?glossary=Fruit


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## redneck_billcollector

With all this great weather in SOWEGA lately I have been spending time on the computer....for those who are interested google Canis Lupus niger floridanus.....it is the extinct black florida wolf...the last of which held out until the 20th century in south GA.  Just a thought here, they ain't extinct.  Oh yeah, they are one of three sub groupings of red wolves.  At one time they were thought to be some strange southeastern type of coyote, but that theory was debunked (in the 40s)


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## The Longhunter

I've attended several seminars put on by the u of GA, and their studies indicate that the larger size of eastern coyotes is due to the influence of dog genes, i.e. coydogs.  There is also a theory that the demonstrated lack of fear of humans in eastern coyotes may be due to an infusion of dog genes--that's the reason you have coyotes in Buckhead and Central Park.  

I shot a black coyote like the one JWT is holding, maybe 20 years ago.  The first one I ever saw in Georgia alive.  All the camp buddies accused me of shooting someone's German Shepherd, but the head was 100% coyote.


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## chehawknapper

According to the latest genetic study (2012), there are 3 species of wolf in N. America - Gray, Eastern, and Red. References to the Red wolf being a cross breed between Eastern wolves and coyotes talk about between 150,000 and 200,000 years ago, not anything recent. For those that think that a coyote and a dog will interbreed, try putting them together and let us know how that works out. I concur with redneck billcollector - Florida black wolves, aka Canis lupus niger floridanus was not and is not extinct but is now interbreeding with coyotes.


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## Nicodemus

chehawknapper said:


> According to the latest genetic study (2012), there are 3 species of wolf in N. America - Gray, Eastern, and Red. References to the Red wolf being a cross breed between Eastern wolves and coyotes talk about between 150,000 and 200,000 years ago, not anything recent. For those that think that a coyote and a dog will interbreed, try putting them together and let us know how that works out. I concur with redneck billcollector - Florida black wolves, aka Canis lupus niger floridanus was not and is not extinct but is now interbreeding with coyotes.





Yep. The evidence is all around us.


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## NCHillbilly

I agree. And the DNA studies show wolf DNA, not dog DNA, in our eastern "coyotes." These critters commonly get over 50 pounds here, and come in a variety of wolf colors, and pack hunt. The last "officially documented" gray wolf kill in my county was in the 1920's, but most of the old-timers around here when I was growing up swore that there were still a few wolves lurking back in the mountains.


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## redneck_billcollector

The Longhunter said:


> I've attended several seminars put on by the u of GA, and their studies indicate that the larger size of eastern coyotes is due to the influence of dog genes, i.e. coydogs.  There is also a theory that the demonstrated lack of fear of humans in eastern coyotes may be due to an infusion of dog genes--that's the reason you have coyotes in Buckhead and Central Park.
> 
> I shot a black coyote like the one JWT is holding, maybe 20 years ago.  The first one I ever saw in Georgia alive.  All the camp buddies accused me of shooting someone's German Shepherd, but the head was 100% coyote.


U of FLA genetic studies show that the coy-dog hype is nothing more than a myth.  Recent studies show little or no domestic dog dna but show varying amount of wolf dna.  The "black coyote" you shot was more canis lupus niger floridanus than dog...I would bet you just about anything it had no dog dna.  Check out Bartram's description of the florida black wolf from the late 18th century....black with females having a white chest spot and the size of a small wolf....I know the black "yotes" I have harvested meet the size and color described by W. Bartram.   It should further be noted that not only Bartram wrote of these black wolves of the southeast...Aldo Leopold did too along with many more early American naturalist.

If, in fact there were any genetic studies done by UGA to back up what you are saying, please post a link, because every genetic study I have seen counters what you said UGA claims. I have yet to see a genetic study supporting the myth of the coy-dog. 

Why is it that is us south Georgians like me, Ben and Nic who really believe this...it should noted that I do know us three have been harvesting these brush wolves since they started showing up in the mid/late 70s.


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## redneck_billcollector

chehawknapper said:


> According to the latest genetic study (2012), there are 3 species of wolf in N. America - Gray, Eastern, and Red. References to the Red wolf being a cross breed between Eastern wolves and coyotes talk about between 150,000 and 200,000 years ago, not anything recent. For those that think that a coyote and a dog will interbreed, try putting them together and let us know how that works out. I concur with redneck billcollector - Florida black wolves, aka Canis lupus niger floridanus was not and is not extinct but is now interbreeding with coyotes.



I often wonder....why did they start showing up in numbers in the SOWEGA plantation belt and flint river drainage before they did west of us?  Bet you a nickle to a dollar that there were some florida wolves hanging out in the area and when the deer and hog population took off...about the time the brush wolves showed up...I would also point out that Ben, Nic and I have a few certified red wolves to look at on a regular basis here at chehaw and I know that I have been pushing this since I laid eyes on them...they look identical in size and shape along with color at times to most of the ones I started catching in traps back in the 70s. I believe Ben felt (don't know though) the same once he laid eyes on them.


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## Nicodemus

Be hard to convince me this is a coyote. This one is from Lower Worth County, right across the dirt road from Wiregrass. Back in the 80s.

Another thing I wonder is if brush wolves are so eager to breed with dogs, why is there no proof that they bred or breed with Carolina dogs or any of the pariah dogs the Indians in this part of the country had? They didn`t.


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## chehawknapper

I caught my first black coyote in Clay Co. around 30 years ago( I still have that brain tanned hide). I had never heard of a black coyote and remembered Bartram's comment about the "black wolves of Florida". I went back and reread that section and started researching Red Wolves and wolves in general. I never did find an instance of a black coyote west of the Mississippi. I just kind of put 2 and 2 together. It is the only logical reason for these black coyotes showing up. The black phase red wolves were never completely gone but were so few in number that they bred with the coyotes that started showing up. I have been expressing my theory ever since.


----------



## Nicodemus

chehawknapper said:


> I caught my first black coyote in Clay Co. around 30 years ago( I still have that brain tanned hide). I had never heard of a black coyote and remembered Bartram's comment about the "black wolves of Florida". I went back and reread that section and started researching Red Wolves and wolves in general. I never did find an instance of a black coyote west of the Mississippi. I just kind of put 2 and 2 together. It is the only logical reason for these black coyotes showing up. The black phase red wolves were never completely gone but were so few in number that they bred with the coyotes that started showing up. I have been expressing my theory ever since.




That`s a nice skin too.

Something else I`ve noticed too, and I`m sure you and Jay have too, Ben, is that around here, where we have a healthy deer herd, the brush wolves haven`t decimated the population. More than once, I watched deer feed in the field across the road from the house, while a coyote mouse hunted at the same time.


----------



## chehawknapper

Hey Nick, along that same line of thinking, how come you never hear about coyotes interbreeding with dogs out west - only in the east?


----------



## Nicodemus

chehawknapper said:


> Hey Nick, along that same line of thinking, how come you never hear about coyotes interbreeding with dogs out west - only in the east?





I remember the lesson a wise man taught me once. Why breed with a stranger, when you have your own kind? That dog is a competitor for the same food, so they are killed. And eaten themselves.


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## chehawknapper

Jay, I remember when they first started showing up. I had to change hardware real quick. I found parts to my 1 1/2 coilspring fox traps scattered over about a 10' area. Base plates were completely sprung so that the bent up ears on the jaws didn't matter.


----------



## The Longhunter

redneck_billcollector said:


> U of FLA genetic studies show that the coy-dog hype is nothing more than a myth.



A myth you say.  Sort of like UF football.

I always promote never letting the facts interfere with a well held theory, but _just maybe_ you should read some of this.

http://www.carolinadogs.org/news/augusta.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/16/science/a-dog-that-goes-way-back.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0



> But the problem is that some of the wilder dogs have mated with other breeds — local dogs and even coyotes. ...  In the essential narrative of early American natural history, William Bartram’s 1791 book “Bartram’s Travels,” the author runs across a Seminole Indian maintaining some horses and writes: “One occurrence, remarkable here, was a troop of horse under the control and care of a single black dog, which seemed to differ in no respect from the wolf of Florida, except his being able to bark as the common dog.”





> I first became involved with Carolina Dogs in 2007 after adopting a 14 week old pup from Central Florida, named Hailey. Hailey behaved and looked very different from any other dogs I worked with in rescue and later, as I worked as a veterinary technician. Hailey was just shy of a year old before I discovered what she really was. Numerous people asked us if our dog was part coyote or even wolf, they said she just looked wild. One day, somebody told us she looked like a dingo. Not sure of what a Dingo was or looked like, we searched for images and information. After discovering that Hailey did have a striking resemblance to Australia’s wild dog, we stumbled across information about the “American Dingo”, AKA Carolina Dog.
> 
> *After having her verified by the breed founder, Dr. I Lehr Brisbin, as a coyote/Carolina Dog hyrbid I became hooked.* After finishing my Bachelor of Science degree from the University of Central Florida, my husband and I moved to Savannah, Georgia in March 2010 to begin my work with these dogs as a graduate student for Dr. Brisbin. I found and adopted two more wild caught dogs, a female named Hannah from Wetumpka, Alabama, and a male named Nero from Eastern Tennessee.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Dog



> Now, they're going through a whole new set of changes as they adapt to the modern landscape of North America. Genetic studies7 show that some coyotes are even interbreeding with dogs, which could lead to a different sort of hybrid animal. Researchers are struggling to keep up with the animals and their impacts as they lope into more new regions.  http://www.nature.com/news/rise-of-the-coyote-the-new-top-dog-1.10635




There is also substantial DNA evidence that the red wolf is a fairly recent hybrid of the gray wolf and coyote, and not a genetically distinct species.  That discussion is beyond the scope of this conversation.


----------



## Sweetwater

Nicodemus said:


> That`s a nice skin too.
> 
> Something else I`ve noticed too, and I`m sure you and Jay have too, Ben, is that around here, where we have a healthy deer herd, the brush wolves haven`t decimated the population. More than once, I watched deer feed in the field across the road from the house, while a coyote mouse hunted at the same time.



I've observed roughly the same thing. I've also heard tell of many a coyote having infant hawg in their gullets.


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## redneck_billcollector

The Longhunter, I am very familiar with the "carolina dog"....we know indians had dogs before the eruopeans arrived...from what I understand about them is that they are from those dogs.  The Aztecs had chiuahuas prior to europeans.....that doesn't mean they are part coyote.  Domestic dogs are decendant from Canis lupus, not Canis latrans.  

One of the articles you linked said they are more wolf like than dog like....yet there was no reference  to a dna study supporting them mating with coyotes. As for the Bartram quote...well, that took place around the time of the American Revolution and the indian he saw had horses.....if he had european horses, why couldn't he have a european dog?  If you recall, most indians when they first saw horses thought they were large dogs....I have no doubt precolumbian peoples of the americas had dogs....the genetic studies show that (that is all the study showed with the studies on carolina dogs).  However, the dna studies on coyotes...show wolf dna and little to no dog dna, either modern ones or carolina dog dna.   I will go with the dna on this issue...and not speculation which is what the article seemed to say.  I also agree with Ben on another issue, why is this never an issue out west where coyotes are from?  It is not.  I have probably harvested hundreds of "coyotes" in my life in GA.  and a good many out west too...they aint the same animal.....and the ones put in the genetic studies bear out the wolf/coyote theory where as the genetic studies also rule out the coy-dog theory.

There was an interesting experiment done over a number of years in the former soviet union with foxes....it did not take too long to create foxes that would bark, have floppy ears, curled tails and act like the family dog through selective breeding of foxes with no dog interbreeding...apparently those traits are co-occuring with friendliness towards humans.  Who is to say that the black dog with the indian that Bartram saw was not a line breed florida wolf with those traits...he noted barking.


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## The Longhunter

redneck_billcollector said:


> However, the dna studies on coyotes...show wolf dna and little to no dog dna, either modern ones or carolina dog dna.   I will go with the dna on this issue...and not speculation which is what the article seemed to say.  I also agree with Ben on another issue, why is this never an issue out west where coyotes are from?  It is not.  I have probably harvested hundreds of "coyotes" in my life in GA.  and a good many out west too...they aint the same animal.....and the ones put in the genetic studies bear out the wolf/coyote theory where as the genetic studies also rule out the coy-dog theory.




Really?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12535104



> *Widespread* occurrence of a domestic dog mitochondrial DNA haplotype in southeastern US coyotes.
> Adams JR, Leonard JA, Waits LP.
> Source
> 
> Department of Fish and Wildlife, University of Idaho, College of Natural Resources, Room 105, Moscow, Idaho 83844-1136, USA.
> 
> Sequence analysis of the mitochondrial DNA control region from 112 southeastern US coyotes (Canis latrans) revealed 12 individuals with a haplotype closely related to those in domestic dogs
> 
> These results demonstrate that a male coyote hybridized with a female dog, and female hybrid offspring successfully integrated into the coyote population.* The widespread distribution of this haplotype from Florida to West Virginia *suggests that the hybridization event occurred long ago before the southeastern USA was colonized by coyotes
> 
> However, our results suggest that,* contrary to previous reports, hybridization can occur between domestic and wild canids,* even when the latter is relatively abundant. Therefore, hybridization may be a greater threat to the persistence of wild canid populations than previously thought.


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## NC Scout

This yote shot on our WNC farm last Fall made well over 50#. I was mowing a bottom late last Summer when a mature, healthy 6 point buck came running full speed into pasture with his head down and his tongue lolling out like he'd been chased clean off the top of Rattlesnake Bald by a pack. That buck made straight for tractor like it was going to protect him, thought he was going to hit it, then veered off, sat down on his haunches sliding into an abrupt stop right in front of me with his head still down just heaving and wheezing for breath.  He had bits of spit foam on his shoulders like he'd been evading at full run for a long time.  Has to be a bold, experienced pack to go after a mature buck, right?  I've heard packs taking deer/fawn at night too.  Vicious growling, snarling combined with bleating, followed quickly by silence then yips of success.  Its crossed my mind more than once how remarkably fast that silence do come.


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## NCHillbilly

Keep in mind also that red wolves were released into the Smoky Mountains National Park for a few years. They discovered that they didn't recognize park boundaries, and that the pups didn't do good when they went and dug up every den they could find and tagged/vaccinated/poked/pried/prodded/handled the pups, and were amazed when they didn't survive. They supposedly rounded them all up and took them away, but who knows if they did, and who knows if they crossbred with yotes the whole time? All I know is that we have some huge, multi-colored, pack-oriented coyotes in western NC. NCScout's photo is pretty representative, except a lot aof the big ones are darker colored. I know of one killed in my county a few years ago that was black/rusty red colored and weighed 74#. I hear one howling frequently around here that has a deep, wolf-like howl, not like the typical yote howl. He's the first one that starts howling, and the rest join in and pack up. We have a captive breeding facility for red wolves near here that I've visited many times, so I'm very familiar with what they look and sound like-just like a good percentage of our yotes.


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## Theodore981

A few years ago, I saw a 'yote in Acworth (Cobb county), that I would have bet every dime of my worth on that it was a wolf.  Most certainly not a dog.  I doubt extremely seriously that there are wolves in Acworth.  A huge 'yote, most likely.  Like 85+ lb.  It trotted up to Mars Hill Rd., looked both ways, bolted across, stopped, looked both ways again, then vaporized into the brush on that side.  Bushy tail was long and curled upward toward the end.  No domestic dog has the wits to look for/after traffic like that critter did.  That joker was smart!

I almost left a brick under me, on my car seat, thinking it may have been a wolf.  I know for absolute certainty that there are quite a few cougars in GA.  I am fairly certain that there are some black ones too.  But I really, really doubt that there are wolves in GA.  Possibly (but unlikely), there are a few, deep in the far north mountains of this state, but I would be quite surprised to see any evidence of that.

But that 'yote was one of the most amazing pieces of wildlife I have ever seen in my life.  I have a 90+ lb GSD, and that critter was nearly as big, and probably 10x smarter than that lovable idiot dog of mine.


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## redneck_billcollector

View - ResearchGate



www.researchgate.net/...southeastern...coyotes/.../72e7e51d593e3e9674....‎



by JR ADAMS - ‎2003 - ‎Cited by 58 - ‎Related articles
Florida to West Virginia suggests that the hybridization event occurred long ago ... the southeastern coyote population does not appear to have substantially ...

Google this pdf Longhunter,(I can't figure out how to link a pdf) it is the whole paper of the abstract you posted.  It shows that the haplotype indicates ONE event of a female dog and male coyote breeding a long time ago, before there was a natural population of coyotes in the southeast.  (it suggest a male coyote in a "fox pen" breeding with a female dog before there were coyotes in the southeast is the most likely reason for this haplotype) The article goes on to pretty much show that dogs and coyotes don't breed much (if at all) in the wild and if they do, the offspring  don't survive or produce surviving offspring because a dog/yote cross will pup in the winter but wolf coyote crosses will pup in the spring.  A haplotype is a marker from an individual (in this case a female domestic dog  at least 60 or more years ago)...because it was present in 12 out of 112 sampled from W. Virginia to FLA the study said it had to happen a long time ago for it to be that widespread amongst a large population.  When you read the whole paper it becomes apparent that natural dog coyote populations are extremely rare, this study could only verify one natural breeding event, once again, a long time ago. That is the problem with abstracts....you don't ever get the whole story. It pretty much puts the "coy-dog" myth to rest. The pdf is the paper that was published about the 12 out of 112 sampled mentioned in all your links by the way and abstracted in one.  There was no other domestic dog genetic material found during the study.  It also talked about wolf/coyote crosses and how they will be viable in the wild because they will pup in the spring.  The reason hybridization is thought to be a danger to small wolf populations is because they breed readily in stressful situations with coyotes and the offspring produce offspring because they pup in the spring as opposed to the winter like dog coyote or dog wolf crosses. Thank you for the links Longhunter (especially the abstract) because they make me feel even more strongly about my theories.

One other interesting thing is that any crosses with a dog of either wolf or coyote are almost always with a female dog because male domestic dogs have no parenting instincts, and in the wild males share in parenting if there is to be any hope of the pups surviving.....though there has only been genetic evidence of one actual breeding event discussed above.The google search I did to find that pdf was "southeastern coyote genetics florida"


----------



## redneck_billcollector

Theodore981 said:


> A few years ago, I saw a 'yote in Acworth (Cobb county), that I would have bet every dime of my worth on that it was a wolf.  Most certainly not a dog.  I doubt extremely seriously that there are wolves in Acworth.  A huge 'yote, most likely.  Like 85+ lb.  It trotted up to Mars Hill Rd., looked both ways, bolted across, stopped, looked both ways again, then vaporized into the brush on that side.  Bushy tail was long and curled upward toward the end.  No domestic dog has the wits to look for/after traffic like that critter did.  That joker was smart!
> 
> I almost left a brick under me, on my car seat, thinking it may have been a wolf.  I know for absolute certainty that there are quite a few cougars in GA.  I am fairly certain that there are some black ones too.  But I really, really doubt that there are wolves in GA.  Possibly (but unlikely), there are a few, deep in the far north mountains of this state, but I would be quite surprised to see any evidence of that.
> 
> But that 'yote was one of the most amazing pieces of wildlife I have ever seen in my life.  I have a 90+ lb GSD, and that critter was nearly as big, and probably 10x smarter than that lovable idiot dog of mine.



The genetic studies show that almost all the coyotes in the southeast and northeast for that matter,  have some wolf dna....more than likely a small wolf like Canis lycaon (dont know if I spelled that correctly) which alot of people are saying that is what a red wolf is....the eastern wolf aka canis rufus and canis lupus niger. The problem is that most of these wolves were supposedly extinct prior to the advent of genetic studies, but now it seems they were not.


----------



## The Longhunter

redneck_billcollector said:


> View - ResearchGate
> 
> 
> 
> www.researchgate.net/...southeastern...coyotes/.../72e7e51d593e3e9674....‎
> 
> 
> 
> by JR ADAMS - ‎2003 - ‎Cited by 58 - ‎Related articles
> Florida to West Virginia suggests that the hybridization event occurred long ago ... the southeastern coyote population does not appear to have substantially ...
> 
> Google this pdf Longhunter,(I can't figure out how to link a pdf) it is the whole paper of the abstract you posted.  It shows that the haplotype indicates ONE event of a female dog and male coyote breeding a long time ago, before there was a natural population of coyotes in the southeast.  (it suggest a male coyote in a "fox pen" breeding with a female dog before there were coyotes in the southeast is the most likely reason for this haplotype) The article goes on to pretty much show that dogs and coyotes don't breed much (if at all) in the wild and if they do, the offspring  don't survive or produce surviving offspring because a dog/yote cross will pup in the winter but wolf coyote crosses will pup in the spring.  A haplotype is a marker from an individual (in this case a female domestic dog  at least 60 or more years ago)...because it was present in 12 out of 112 sampled from W. Virginia to FLA the study said it had to happen a long time ago for it to be that widespread amongst a large population.  When you read the whole paper it becomes apparent that natural dog coyote populations are extremely rare, this study could only verify one natural breeding event, once again, a long time ago. That is the problem with abstracts....you don't ever get the whole story. It pretty much puts the "coy-dog" myth to rest. The pdf is the paper that was published about the 12 out of 112 sampled mentioned in all your links by the way and abstracted in one.  There was no other domestic dog genetic material found during the study.  It also talked about wolf/coyote crosses and how they will be viable in the wild because they will pup in the spring.  The reason hybridization is thought to be a danger to small wolf populations is because they breed readily in stressful situations with coyotes and the offspring produce offspring because they pup in the spring as opposed to the winter like dog coyote or dog wolf crosses. Thank you for the links Longhunter (especially the abstract) because they make me feel even more strongly about my theories.
> 
> One other interesting thing is that any crosses with a dog of either wolf or coyote are almost always with a female dog because male domestic dogs have no parenting instincts, and in the wild males share in parenting if there is to be any hope of the pups surviving.....though there has only been genetic evidence of one actual breeding event discussed above.The google search I did to find that pdf was "southeastern coyote genetics florida"



I read the whole paper.  I linked to the abstract for those who didn't care to wade through the entire paper.

The point remains that in a reasonably random sample of eastern coyotes, more than 10% show dog genes, and the distribution was not localized.  Whether that is rare or not is a matter of definition.  

You left out the point that the researchers couldn't pinpoint when hybridization occurred -- it could have been an ancient cross, or a more recent one. or both.  They also posited answers to the question as to why this hybridization was not found in western coyotes.  Researchers comparing eastern and western coyotes (and gray wolves) reached this conclusion:



> We compared Y-haplotypes observed in coyotes, wolves, and dogs profiled in multiple studies, and observed that the Y-haplotypes shared between coyotes and dogs were either_ absent or rare in North American wolves, present in eastern coyotes, but absent in western coyotes.[_B] We suggest the eastern coyote has experienced asymmetric genetic introgression from dogs, resulting from predominantly historical hybridization with male dogs and subsequent backcrossing of hybrid offspring with coyotes.[/B]  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ece3.693/full





> We reject the hypothesis that the observed Y-haplotype sharing between coyotes and dogs is attributable to a shared common ancestor given that they are present in eastern coyotes but apparently absent in western coyotes (Table 2), the latter of which represent the source of eastward colonizers that evolved into the former; this implies that coyotes experienced genetic introgression during eastward range expansion





> Our investigation of the canine Y-chromosome has further clarified the evolutionary history of the eastern coyote. *Specifically, Y-haplotypes observed in eastern coyotes that were previously attributed to gray wolf introgression have now been predominantly attributed to dog introgression,* although some gray wolf introgression is still evident (Table 2)





> The evidence presented herein of introgressed dog and wolf genes in eastern coyotes is corroborated by investigations of skull morphology (Lawrence and Bossert 1969; McGinnis 1979; Kays et al. 2010) and coat color (Anderson et al. 2009; Brockerville et al. 2013).







I also note that the researchers raise questions about whether the red wolf is a distinct species or a coyote-gray wolf hybrid.  Other researchers dispute this, contending that the Canadian wolf is a separate species from the the gray wolf.  http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/z00-158#.Uheht_UoOT4  It's very interesting how long ago the speciation of the three is thought to have occur --150,00-300,000 years ago.  Others contend that the Eastern wolf was the prototypical wolf for North America, and that red wolf is a coyote-eastern wolf hybrid. 

I also find it interesting that only a female dog-male coyote breeding is considered viable due to the nurturing nature of the male coyote ("obligate requirement for successful reproduction").  

Here is another paper that suggests that the larger size of the eastern coyote is due to the nutritional value of larger available prey, the white tailed deer.  This conclusion of course adds to the discussion of the effect of coyote predation on the deer herd.  
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1382446?uid=3739616&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102578893807

This raises the thought that if larger coyotes arise from preying on deer that makes for coyotes more suitable for preying on deer.


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## shakey gizzard

Man made hybrids are being released into the wild all the time!


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## joedublin

Couple of years ago I missed a shot at one in SW GA that would have easy gone 60 pounds or more.


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## MrBull

Very interesting thread !!!
I do not know much about coyotes but my dads neighbor had to have the vet come out and take care of his horse after a pack of something (presumably coyotes) tried to catch it. There was sign of a struggle between the horse and several attackers. There are no known packs of dogs running loose in the area. The horses owner is a lifetime outdoorsman who has hunted just about everything in this part of the world. He is in his mid 50's. His father was a cowhunter in his younger days and a game warden in the Okefenokee swamp. In other words I trust his opinion when it comes to anything in these woods. He is saying that it was coyotes. We no that there are large numbers of coyotes in the area. It is a little startling to me that they would attack a full grown quarter horse. Do any of you guys have 1st hand knowledge of similar events?


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## philtuts

I shot this one in December a few years back. Sure does have a lot of red/black coloration. We never weighed it, but it's certainly not a small dog. That was a great morning. 

Phil


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## goob

*red wolf*

The pic is of an unknown animal. I know what we think it is. What do the experts say? During bow season, it walked out where my Dad was hunting. At first he thought coyote. He said once it got closer, he knew it wasnt a yote. He said it was something straight out of a scary movie and he could see the muscles in its shoulder ripple as it walked. He said it looked at him and eased off, never ran. When it looked at him he said it was like a fox's face, and said it was about the size of a medium deer. I put my camera up and got a picture of it going up a deer trail, away from the camera. Its the same one as this pic, judging from the white spot on its beehonkus. I also have a picture of the track, which is longer that a 270 shell.


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## sleepr71

Interesting thread & I try to keep up,when there are updates. I've predator hunted over the mid-state since the 1980's & every single Black 'yote I've killed had the white chevron on its chest. Also,I used to hunt several thousand acres that backed up to a neighborhood in Milledgeville and there were several(I know I'm going to catch flack--)coydogs on that place One was a big Irish-setter colored one that had a big,coyote shaped head,deeeep howl,and had paw prints the size of,and similar to--a big dog,but was seen several times travelling with another coyote. There was another greyish/black one that denned a mile or so away...and it also had a deeep/doggish sounding howl---but he would yip like the rest of the 'yotes when a siren went by on the highway. He had a deep, odd,quavering voiceI was a beginning 'caller back then & called each of those in,but got 'yote fever & missed my shot at them. After that,they would bark/yip/howl at a predator call...but never come in again In hindsight...I wish I'd have trapped that place..just to put "hands on them" & answer whether they were "coy-dogs",or just dogs gone wild...that lived amongst coyotes. FWIW...over the 7-8 years I hunted there,we would occaisionally find a neighborhood dog that had been mauled/killed when it decided to venture deep into this property..so the coyotes there seemed pretty intollerant/territorial to other canines..other than the coy-dogs...


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## cuda67bnl

goob said:


> I know what we think it is.




what do you think it is?


----------



## goob

cuda67bnl said:


> what do you think it is?



What do you think it looks like?


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## olcowman

goob said:


> What do you think it looks like?



Come on you're a killing me here... just from that pic and based on your Dad's description... what are you suggesting? Werewolf? Demon dog? From the backside it looks sorta like a 'souped-up' fiest lap dog to me?


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## cuda67bnl

goob said:


> What do you think it looks like?



Looks like a dog to me but it's really too crappy of a pic for me to form a solid opinion.......

So what do you think?


----------



## goob

olcowman said:


> Come on you're a killing me here... just from that pic and based on your Dad's description... what are you suggesting? Werewolf? Demon dog? From the backside it looks sorta like a 'souped-up' fiest lap dog to me?



I have a picture of my truck sitting in the same spot. Its back is about even with my tires, and my tires are 33's. I believe it's some kind of mix.


----------



## olcowman

goob said:


> I have a picture of my truck sitting in the same spot. Its back is about even with my tires, and my tires are 33's. I believe it's some kind of mix.



I'm trying to think how big 33's are... I ain't got nothing around here with them on it? I got me a tape out and studied it a spell... if you're a saying the thing was 33 inches tall then it must be 'bout half Shetland pony? I got a little heeler pup that ain't but 22" and she weighed 40lbs at the vet the other day... that'd be a pretty good'un I figure.


----------



## dawg2

fishfryer said:


> Redneck Billcollector,You certainly write interesting threads. With your background and experience,it is a pleasure to read your thoughts. You express an idea,cite personal experiences that relate to it, and then give us some scientific data to chew on also. You are urging others to dig deeper into your subject,I personally wish you would. I further, hope to hear more on the subject, from you. My wife and I saw a really big coyote yesterday crossing a rural road here. This coyote/coydog made both of us think of German Shepherd ancestory. I'm fairly sure it was over 40 lbs.. As you have said, I never saw a coyote until the very early 1970s,now they are fairly common here. Thanks again for your thoughts.


I know this is an old post.  But we have one on our lease that I saw crossing a clearcut.  I watched it thinking it was a loose german shepherd at first.  But once it got closer and trotted in front of me I saw it was a big coyote.


----------



## NCHillbilly

goob said:


> The pic is of an unknown animal. I know what we think it is. What do the experts say? During bow season, it walked out where my Dad was hunting. At first he thought coyote. He said once it got closer, he knew it wasnt a yote. He said it was something straight out of a scary movie and he could see the muscles in its shoulder ripple as it walked. He said it looked at him and eased off, never ran. When it looked at him he said it was like a fox's face, and said it was about the size of a medium deer. I put my camera up and got a picture of it going up a deer trail, away from the camera. Its the same one as this pic, judging from the white spot on its beehonkus. I also have a picture of the track, which is longer that a 270 shell.



I've seen a few really, really big "coyotes" around here that were colored exactly like that. One was killed not far from my house that weighed about 70 lbs, and it was also colored like that. I've also spent a good bit of time watching the captive red wolves that they have at the WNC Nature Center. I can't see much difference.


----------



## goob

NCHillbilly said:


> I've seen a few really, really big "coyotes" around here that were colored exactly like that. One was killed not far from my house that weighed about 70 lbs, and it was also colored like that. I've also spent a good bit of time watching the captive red wolves that they have at the WNC Nature Center. I can't see much difference.



exactly. he's huge.


----------



## Joe of Dirt

goob said:


> exactly. he's huge.



Yep, and I have seen a canis lupis in Cobb county that I most certainly would have bet my left one that is was not a coyote or a domestic dog.  And I am very serious about that (I'm talking a 70+ lb "coyote").  Believe the DNR, if you want to (on cougars, wolves, etc.).  I'm really not one to believe gummit employees heck-bent on keeping their jobs).  

Yeah, they're here - both critters.  Without a doubt.  Then again, maybe 70+lb coyotes in metro Atlanta are the norm.  And, 1:  armadillos aren't in Hiram, 2:  cougars near Cedartown, or 3:  cottonmouths north of, say Newnan.  (1 and 2 are verified facts.  3 will be debated by not-smart-people, very ignorant about the difference between cottonmouths and water snakes, until the end of time).


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## redneck_billcollector

Widespread occurrence of a domestic dog mitochondrial DNA haplotype in southeastern US coyotes.

Adams JR, Leonard JA, Waits LP.


Author information 




Abstract


Sequence analysis of the mitochondrial DNA control region from 112 southeastern US coyotes (Canis latrans) revealed 12 individuals with a haplotype closely related to those in domestic dogs. Phylogenetic analyses grouped this new haplotype in the dog/grey wolf (Canis familiaris/Canis lupus) clade with 98% bootstrap support. These results demonstrate that a male coyote hybridized with a female dog, and female hybrid offspring successfully integrated into the coyote population. The widespread distribution of this haplotype from Florida to West Virginia suggests that the hybridization event occurred long ago before the southeastern USA was colonized by coyotes. However, it could have occurred in the southeastern USA before the main front of coyotes arrived in the area between male coyotes released for sport and a local domestic dog. The introgression of domestic dog genes into the southeastern coyote population does not appear to have substantially affected the coyote's genetic, morphological, or behavioural integrity. 

The above is an abstract of the paper about ONE instance of a coyote and a dog breeding, it is based on a haplotype genetic marker. Haplotype markers are used to determine a common ancestor in a family tree, in other words, to see who all has a common single ancestor...it was haplotypes that showed Genghis Khan as a common ancestor in millions of people.  12 yotes out of 112 tested throughout the southeast had this haplotype, with no other domestic dog dna found.  Once again, the paper suggest it occurred in a fox pen prior to the coyotes reaching the southeast. http://www.canids.org/PUBLICAT/CNDNEWS3/2conserv.htm an interesting article on what exactly is a red wolf.

One interesting observation is that all studies show coyote dog crosses all pup within the winter. Now I have trapped and hunted my whole life in GA and I can not begin to say how many "coyotes" I have harvested, a goodly number have been females. One thing I have never noticed was any indication that they had welped recently.  I have harvested many that were pregnant though in the Feb..  Many being havested towards the end of traditional trapping season, feb..  Furthermore I have trapped many yotes in the spring (year round harvesting of coyotes is allowed in GA) of the year that showed signs of recent whelping, especially towards the end of spring. Many of the studies and observations of the effects of coyotes in GA on deer point out that they whelp pups around the same time deer are fawning, that would also show that few, if any crosses take place.  Coyotes in GA are at their most vunerable to human predation in the winter time, it is trapping season and the woods are full of deer hunters, if one of the parents are harvested it would not bode well for the pups surviving.  There are few deer hunters who pass up a shot at a yote on their hunting property and I imagine the vast majority of yotes are killed by deer hunters.   

Here is an interesting blog post about maybe our black wolves are wolf dog crosses as opposed to coyote dog crosses, though it is talking about a time prior to there being coyotes in the southeast. 
http://retrieverman.net/tag/florida-black-wolf/
I would love to see a genetic study done on our black "yotes". I have looked far and wide and can not find a single study done on them.  It would go a long way in solving the questions raised in this thread.  I hope some young wildlife biologist graduate student reads this and does a genetic study on our "black wolves" to see exactly what they are.  They are not extinct as many think, there are dozens of photos of them on this forum, they are black with a white chest patch, just as depicted by Bartram.


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## collardvalleydeerhunter

interesting thread,
 Got this one in Polk county in Dec. he was 38lb. with some nice fangs lol...


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## collardvalleydeerhunter

The mysterious coywolf is a mixture of western coyote and eastern wolf.

http://video.pbs.org/video/2365159966/


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## Gary Mercer

That old boy could be mistaken for a large dog...?


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## deerhunter09

So, according to the video a couple posts earlier, shooting and trapping them is just going to make them reproduce faster.


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