# Need advice why its harder shooting a small pistol accurately than a larger one



## huntingonthefly (Jun 16, 2011)

Me and my wife are new to handgun shooting. I recently purchased a 40 cal. Springfield XD40 with a 5'' barrell. She got a purse size and very lightweight 380 cal. Ruger LCP with a 3'' or less barrell. We set up a silhouete target at 15 yards. First shot with mine I touched the X, then unloaded the clip in the X ring. Then me and her both shot the small 380. All over the place, some shots missing entire paper and you know how big a silhouette target is, lol. I noticed the trigger pull was very long and sights not as apparent as the larger pistol but seems we shouldve stayed within the 7 ring at such a close range. Any advice? Maybe the best loads for those guns for personal protection use mostly? Can we assume those itty bitty pistols are only for pointing n shooting insterad of getting impressive range results for their respective ranges? Maybe a few hundred rounds a few trips to the range will help? Any tips will be appreciated. Thanks


----------



## brandonsc (Jun 16, 2011)

the shorter 3 in barrel will be less accurate then the 5 in barrel due to the riflings in the barrel of the pistol


----------



## Darien1 (Jun 17, 2011)

I shoot handguns quite often and used to be a firearms instructor for my agency.  There are several reasons that might cause inaccuracy with a particular firearm.  More than likely it is not the gun or the ammo.  The smaller weapon might fit differently in your hand, you might be putting too much finger on the trigger, the sights might be off or you're not used to them.  I have a small Bersa .380 that I can shoot into one ragged hole at 10 yards.  The weapons are usually capable of shooting accurately but sometimes it just takes adjustments and practice on your part to get the most out of the pistol.  My advice would be to sit in front of the TV with a safe weapon that you have made sure is unloaded and practice your grip, trigger pull and sight alignment at targets on the TV or around the room.  Shooting is really muscle memory, like playing a musical instrument without music to look at.  Practice, practice, practice.


----------



## Sargent (Jun 17, 2011)

Sight radius is the distance from the front sight and the rear sight. 

The longer the sight radius, the more accurate the firearm.

Essentially, the last point you have control (by aiming) of the direction of the bullet is the muzzle.  The further out that muzzle is, the closer it is to the target and the more control you have over it.


----------



## dtala (Jun 17, 2011)

accuracy of the gun has nothing to do with the length of the barrel...

accuracy, everything else equal, will be better in a longer barrel because of the longer sight radius like Sargent said....

  troy


----------



## ASH556 (Jun 17, 2011)

huntingonthefly said:


> Me and my wife are new to handgun shooting. I recently purchased a 40 cal. Springfield XD40 with a 5'' barrell. She got a purse size and very lightweight 380 cal. Ruger LCP with a 3'' or less barrell. We set up a silhouete target at 15 yards. First shot with mine I touched the X, then unloaded the clip in the X ring. Then me and her both shot the small 380. All over the place, some shots missing entire paper and you know how big a silhouette target is, lol. I noticed the trigger pull was very long and sights not as apparent as the larger pistol but seems we shouldve stayed within the 7 ring at such a close range. Any advice? Maybe the best loads for those guns for personal protection use mostly? Can we assume those itty bitty pistols are only for pointing n shooting insterad of getting impressive range results for their respective ranges? Maybe a few hundred rounds a few trips to the range will help? Any tips will be appreciated. Thanks



You need some good instruction.  A smaller handgun simply magnifies all the flaws.

The fundamentals of accurate handgun shooting:

1)Stance
2) Grip
3) Sight Alignment
4) Breathing
5) Trigger Control

The results you described from the 380 are mostly flaws with grip and trigger control.  Seriously, hire an instructor.  It's well worth it.  He can show you in about an hour what might take years to try to learn on your own or reading.


----------



## Dub (Jun 17, 2011)

Bullseye_Doc_Holiday said:


> You need some good instruction.  A smaller handgun simply magnifies all the flaws.
> 
> The fundamentals of accurate handgun shooting:
> 
> ...



Excellent explanation & valuable tip.


----------



## Richard P (Jun 17, 2011)

As dt says, mechanical accuracy is not defined by barrel length. Also it is not defined by the number of lands/grooves. Two groove rifles can give excellent accuracy. 
  What is being addressed is shootability.  Also as mentioned, the ability to get good results is a combination of factors including grip size, weight, sight radius, trigger pull weight and natural pointability.  Women typically cannot apply the hand strength that men can due to hand and forearm size.  Still, with practice, women show that they are able to operate many firearms with complete proficiency. 
  .380s are snappy due to their blow back action and light weight. They may feel like 9mms which have locked breech actions but are somewhat more powerful.  Good training and lots of practice will show improvement.


----------



## huntingonthefly (Jun 17, 2011)

Thanks guys for the wealth of info. I'll see if I can find a local trainer. meanwhile, practice practice....


----------



## EMC-GUN (Jun 18, 2011)

I have a Model 36 Smith with the 1 7/8 barrel. It shoots quite well.


----------



## dtala (Jun 18, 2011)

I watched Barry Worrel put five shots into a ten inch circle at 100 yards onct.....with a S&W Chiefs Special...with a 2" bbl....

of course Barry was a pretty good shot....

  troy


----------



## ejs1980 (Jun 20, 2011)

Shorter sight radius, longer trigger pull, less weight, smaller grip, smaller sights are just the beginning of small handguns. I know a guy that went through this with his wife a couple weeks ago. She didn't like his 40 so he bought her a kal tec 380 and guess what. She hates it. It takes alot of practice to shoot the smaller guns well. If they are so light and hard to hold on to they aren't fun too shoot so most people don't practice enough to shoot them well.


----------



## jmoser (Jun 22, 2011)

All great advise above - maybe the best suggestion is left for me:

Dry firing your gun is maybe the best [and definitely the cheapest] way to cure all your flaws.  Maintaining proper sight alignment, front sight focus, trigger pull, and follow through can ALL be improved with dry firing.

The next best thing is to get a .22 that is close to your carry gun and live fire 1000s of rounds without going broke in the process.

I have an LCP and I can hold 3" groups at 21 feet all day long; not an easy task with the itty bitty grip frame and the miles long trigger pull.  all of this is a benefit of many years of competitive target shooting where I learned the fundamentals and have them ingrained instinctively - lots of dry firing will do the same.

Even if you do not like laser sights they are a great training tool, used with dry firing they provide an indicator of how well you are maintaining hold and follow through.


----------



## Buck111 (Jun 26, 2011)

Work on fundamentals and go through some ammo. Smaller handguns usually take some time for some shooters to accurately fire. Once the light comes on, you'll be surprised how accurate some of them are. 
Bump what was said about snubbies. I've got a 642 that shoots almost as well as my model 19-3, for me that is.


----------



## huntingonthefly (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks folks for some very professional advice. This forum is great for reaching out. Let yall know in a few weeks how its going.


----------



## GunslingerG20 (Aug 19, 2011)

Shorter sight radius, crappy sights, smaller grip, and a longer/stiffer trigger pull on the smaller gun are the main differences. A longer sight radius leaves less margin for error on the shooters part, and a bad trigger makes accurate shooting all but impossible, as does a poor grip.

A couple of things I would recommend:

1) Experiment with some different ammo. Pocket guns, like the Ruger LCP, are notoriously finicky about ammo. I can take my little Kel-Tec P32 and put them all in the A-zone at 25 yards rapid firing, but only with winchester silvertips. Any other ammo I've tried in this particular gun results in "spray and pray" shooting. Ammo DOES make a significant difference.

2) Dry-fire practice!!!!!!!!! I've been shooting competitively (IPSC/USPSA and occassional IDPA) at the regional and National level since 1994. The biggest single thing that accelerated my learning curve when first getting serious about handguns (I was a die-hard long-range rifle guy up until then) was dry-fire practice. It's very simple. Unload your gun and remove ALL ammo from the room (I know that sounds silly, but you would be amazed at how many people I know that have put holes in the wall with an "unloaded" gun). Once you are safe (no ammo anywhere around!) either put a small target on the wall or just pick a point. Now, get a good sight picture on your target and practice SQUEEZING the trigger while maintaining your site picture. Your sight picture should never vary throughout the entire stroke of the trigger. If it moves at all, slow down and focus on keeping that picture while working the trigger. You will be amazed at how much this will improve your shooting --- and it has been proven in MANY studies to be just as effective as actual range time in terms of learning trigger control, proper sight alignment, breathing control, etc. Once you feel comfortable with that, start doing the same drill, but this time start with the weapon holstered and work on your draw and presentation, in addition to your sights and target. I also recommend putting multiple targets (I often use neon-colored post-it notes for targets/focal points) up and practicing indexing from point to point as rapidly as possible, all while maintaining a good sight picture. These drills will DRAMATICALLY improve your abilities with a handgun (especially as a defensive weapon) and cost absolutely nothing to do. Dry-fire for a week or two, then go back to the range and do some live-fire work. You will be amazed at the difference!

3) If you are new to handguns (especially if you plan to ever carry concealed), I HIGHLY recommend that you get professional instruction. You can also go to your nearest gun club that has IDPA or USPSA matches and ask for help. The shooters there are all WAY beyond simply being proficient with handguns, and they truly love teaching others and introducing them to our sports (and if you get a bit intimidated watching how fast and accurate they are, just remember that every one of them was a handgun newbie too when they first started, so you too will get there with practice and instruction).


Someone posted this earlier:
"The fundamentals of accurate handgun shooting:

1)Stance
2) Grip
3) Sight Alignment
4) Breathing
5) Trigger Control"

I agree, but I think the prioritized order should be:
1) Sight alignment (ALWAYS maintain front-sight focus!)
2) Trigger control
3) Grip
4) Stance
5) Breathing

The only reason I changed the order is because stance is not really that particularly important for most handgun shooting (I'm not talking about scoped hunting guns or bullseye competition, I'm talking about ccw and defensive handguns). In competition we rarely have the opportunity to worry about stance and generally shoot while moving and from extremely awkward positions (And with BOTH hands!). The same goes for breathing control. You're not trying to put them all in a hole at 400+ yards. For long-range rifle shooting breathing control is absolutely vital, but for handgun shooting (excluding silhouette and long-range scoped handguns) it is not really something to worry about.


Above all else, BE SAFE. And practice, practice, practice!!!


----------



## huntingonthefly (Sep 5, 2011)

Thanks GunslingerG20!


----------



## BigJohnE (Sep 7, 2011)

I want to thank Gunslinger20 and everyone else too.  I noticed this thread today and really appreciate it.  I had a truly humbling experience at the range last night trying to shoot my new LCR.  I know it works, because my wife was grouping like a pro with it.  I've never been great with snubs, but this one was a whole new level of "I'm just not getting it"!  I'll be trying out all of this advice for sure.


----------



## georgiacatweasle (Sep 9, 2011)

The real trick to consistent shooting is pay attention to the front sight and  practice trigger pull, slow and sure.  builds up the muscle memory.  Also learn how the trigger breaks and be mindful of it.  after discharging the weapon, release the trigger just enough to re-activate the trigger, less distance to jiggle the weapon.



huntingonthefly said:


> Me and my wife are new to handgun shooting. I recently purchased a 40 cal. Springfield XD40 with a 5'' barrell. She got a purse size and very lightweight 380 cal. Ruger LCP with a 3'' or less barrell. We set up a silhouete target at 15 yards. First shot with mine I touched the X, then unloaded the clip in the X ring. Then me and her both shot the small 380. All over the place, some shots missing entire paper and you know how big a silhouette target is, lol. I noticed the trigger pull was very long and sights not as apparent as the larger pistol but seems we shouldve stayed within the 7 ring at such a close range. Any advice? Maybe the best loads for those guns for personal protection use mostly? Can we assume those itty bitty pistols are only for pointing n shooting insterad of getting impressive range results for their respective ranges? Maybe a few hundred rounds a few trips to the range will help? Any tips will be appreciated. Thanks


----------



## SidMoore (Oct 5, 2013)

jmoser said:


> All great advise above - maybe the best suggestion is left for me:
> 
> Dry firing your gun is maybe the best [and definitely the cheapest] way to cure all your flaws.  Maintaining proper sight alignment, front sight focus, trigger pull, and follow through can ALL be improved with dry firing.
> 
> ...



I know this is an old thread, but, jmoser's comments about the Ruger's "miles long trigger pull" is a good one that I wish to comment on.

A couple of years ago, I bought two of these little guns for my wife and me and was very disappointed that I hadn't check out their action before my purchase (went on Ruger's reputation instead of good sense). The pull is not only exceedingly long, but, it is also enormously heavy! It takes two fingers for my wife to fire this thing and I have a heck of a time with a single finger pull, myself. Holding aim during the pull is almost impossible. The obvious reason Ruger built this into this piece is that it is the only "safety" the gun has. There is absolutely NO way you can discharge this thing accidentally!

SidMoore


----------



## frankwright (Oct 5, 2013)

They are definitely not target guns but when someone is forcing your front door open it will feel like a one pound trigger pull.

The long hard trigger pull can be mastered with practice and actually a lot of shooting and dry firing will reduce the force required to pull the trigger.

You should, with practice and good form, be able to keep all your shots in a head or chest sized area at seven yards which is what these guns are designed for.

Good Luck and keep at it.


----------



## SidMoore (Oct 5, 2013)

Encouraging points, Frank, many thanks!

Your comment that, with lots of dry-fire pulls, the action will "break in" and become easier makes sense. I'll see to it that my wife and I use her gun for all this practice so her's will have the greater chance of lightening up (on pull force). I appreciate your input and encouragement greatly!


----------



## 660griz (Oct 7, 2013)

Sargent said:


> The longer the sight radius, the more accurate the firearm.



That.^^^^ Put a scope on it.


----------



## tv_racin_fan (Oct 7, 2013)

One drill I have heard of is to tape a sheet of paper to the wall. Stick a pencil in the barrel and just touch it to paper. Pull trigger if mark is bigger than a dot keep trying until you can hold steady and leave nothing but a dot after trigger pull.

One could also attach a cheap laser and tape a sheet of paper to the wall with a small sircle on it. Keep the dot trained in the circle thru trigger pull.

PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.  some thing I need to do a LOT more.
Once bought a cheap laser just to see if I liked the idea.. wife had a hard time holding it steady at an indoor range so she turned it off (not wanting others to see that dot moving all over the target) then proceeded to put everything in the bull.


----------



## Rich M (Oct 7, 2013)

My brother in law bought a laser target set-up.  $150 and it allows him to practice at home - already paid for itself many times over.  The target remembers where the lasers hit, then you shoot a small bullseye on it and it shows your group, shoot another small bullseye and it clears the screen.  Tried it this weekend and works nice...oh yeah, the laser thing goes inside your own gun, the only diff is no bang and no recoil.

Another option is a laser for the LCP.  It is a neat set-up and adds a definite advantage.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 8, 2013)

Rich M said:


> Another option is a laser for the LCP.  It is a neat set-up and adds a definite advantage.



Lasers are great for when you can't get a sight picture. i.e. Shooting from behind/around cover, etc. Should not replace practice with regular sights. Lasers fail.


----------



## MFOSTER (Oct 9, 2013)

brandonsc said:


> the shorter 3 in barrel will be less accurate then the 5 in barrel due to the riflings in the barrel of the pistol



I call them little guns belly guns you stick it in the belly if you sure want to hit what you shooting at most practice at 7 yards which is 15 ft the distance  which shooting across room of any house the only problem I have had with lasers your point of impact changes at different yards.


----------



## Twinkie .308 (Oct 16, 2013)

Laser Sight !!!  I have a Kel Tec 380.  It took some time and practice to shoot it with the iron sights (which are almost non-existent).  I was still not as accurate with it as some of my larger handguns.  I put a crimson trace laser sight on it and since then I can shoot it just as well as my larger pistols and I can shoot it faster because the laser helps to aquire the target faster.  It is also great for low light or no light shooting.  If you have a Kel Tec I would also suggest the extended magazine which holds 9 rounds instead of 6.  The 380 jumps quite a bit and you really feel it with the 6 round mag.  The 9 round mag allows me to hold the gun with all my fingers instead of my pinky and half of my ring finger hanging off the bottom.  They also make a grip extension for their clips too which also helps to hold the gun better but doesn't help nearly as much as the 9 round magazine.  You can order these from Kel Tec directly.  I think the extended mag was $27 and the pinky grip was $7.  Money well spent.  If you have a 380 made by another company, I'm sure they have some clips and extensions that are silmilar.


----------



## tv_racin_fan (Oct 17, 2013)

MFOSTER said:


> I call them little guns belly guns you stick it in the belly if you sure want to hit what you shooting at most practice at 7 yards which is 15 ft the distance which shooting across room of any house the only problem I have had with lasers your point of impact changes at different yards.


 

Your point of impact only lines up at certain yardage with normal sights as well.


----------



## Apex Predator (Oct 17, 2013)

MFOSTER said:


> I call them little guns belly guns you stick it in the belly if you sure want to hit what you shooting at most practice at 7 yards which is 15 ft the distance  which shooting across room of any house the only problem I have had with lasers your point of impact changes at different yards.



Better check your math!


----------



## Gaducker (Oct 17, 2013)

Apex Predator said:


> Better check your math!



He went to school at UGA.


----------

