# Drinking Alcohol....



## Banjo (Aug 30, 2008)

Do you think Christians should drink alcohol?  If not, why  not?


----------



## fishndinty (Aug 30, 2008)

Why not?  The Bible does not forbid it, and in fact Jesus's first miracle at the wedding feast in Cana was to turn water into wine for guests that were already tipsy!  The Bible cautions us to avoid drunkenness which leads to debauchery.  It also says in Proverbs to give beer to those who are suffering!  A total prohibitionist stance on alcohol is indefensible as a biblical position.  

Anyone who says otherwise is adding to the law...they might want to check out what the Bible says about those who do such things


----------



## leroy (Aug 30, 2008)

here we go again.


----------



## Mako22 (Aug 30, 2008)

Gee we have never ever argued about this subject before.

What about smoking crack? Can I still as a Christian continue smoking crack? I mean I don't get all the way doped up just a little 10 second high off of a piece of rock thats all.


----------



## Mako22 (Aug 30, 2008)

fishndinty said:


> Why not?  The Bible does not forbid it, and in fact Jesus's first miracle at the wedding feast in Cana was to turn water into wine for guests that were already tipsy!  The Bible cautions us to avoid drunkenness which leads to debauchery.  It also says in Proverbs to give beer to those who are suffering!  A total prohibitionist stance on alcohol is indefensible as a biblical position.
> 
> Anyone who says otherwise is adding to the law...they might want to check out what the Bible says about those who do such things



I've read your argument and when compared to the truth of the scriptures I find that you are completely wrong!

Drinking booze is a sin and I don't add a thing to the scripture by saying that. Maybe you should read up on what the Bible says about those who take away from the scriptures. Have a nice day


----------



## Jeffriesw (Aug 30, 2008)

op2:


----------



## Twenty five ought six (Aug 30, 2008)

Swamp Runner said:


> op2:




I'll drink to that.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 30, 2008)

Twenty five, 



> Drinking booze is a sin and I don't add a thing to the scripture by saying that.



Here I was thinking Jesus was sinless (unless wine isn't alcohol).

You are going to have to prove that statement with chapter and verse.....

We could really rev this up and say that not using wine in the Lord's Supper is a directly disobeying Jesus' clear command.

"Take and Drink."


----------



## jmharris23 (Aug 30, 2008)

Woodsman69 said:


> I've read your argument and when compared to the truth of the scriptures I find that you are completely wrong!
> 
> Drinking booze is a sin and I don't add a thing to the scripture by saying that. Maybe you should read up on what the Bible says about those who take away from the scriptures. Have a nice day




I'd like to know where scripture says drinking booze is a sin. I don't do it, but not because scripture says I can't


----------



## fishndinty (Aug 30, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> I'd like to know where scripture says drinking booze is a sin. I don't do it, but not because scripture says I can't




Right.  Where does it say that drinking alcohol is a sin?  Billy Sunday, your preacher and your momma might have told you that, but not the Holy Word of God.


----------



## fishndinty (Aug 30, 2008)

Twenty five ought six said:


> I'll drink to that.



 Amen!!


----------



## Banjo (Aug 30, 2008)

> Billy Sunday, your preacher and your momma might have told you that, but not the Holy Word of God.



O.k.  this one made me laugh out loud.


----------



## shawn mills (Aug 30, 2008)

I'm a Christian and I see nothing wrong with having a cold beer or a drink on occasion. I dont get drunk. It doesnt control me or my actons either.  I deal with far to much as a Christian man in this world to be worrying wether drinking the occasional drink is frowned upon by God.


----------



## Tanner boyzz (Aug 30, 2008)

i think ill drink enough for everyone if its bad for ya


----------



## fishbone2149 (Aug 30, 2008)

If you drink fine, but getting drunk and doing stupid stuff is the sinful part of it.  Jesus drank wine at the last supper, I am not saying its right, but no I don't think it's a sin.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 30, 2008)

It's my understanding that some church creeds forbid the drinking of any alcoholic beverage.  By doing that they are "going to far".

I kinda wish it had been forbid in the Bible-but it wasn't.


----------



## Tanner boyzz (Aug 30, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> It's my understanding that some church creeds forbid the drinking of any alcoholic beverage.  By doing that they are "going to far".
> 
> I kinda wish it had been forbid in the Bible-but it wasn't.



whats the diff. between drinking alchole(with control)
and drinking coffee they both alter the body


----------



## fishndinty (Aug 30, 2008)

See Ronnie,
I have no problem with your "wish", and if you think that alcohol will be a hindrance to your faith, run from it!  I just have a problem with someone saying the Bible forbids it for everyone; this simply is not the case.


----------



## fishbone2149 (Aug 30, 2008)

In truth we should only drink water or beverages made from the fruit of the land.  Now saying that doesn't all alcohol have "fruits of the land" in it.  Probably the best alcohol is good ole hooch.


----------



## THREEJAYS (Aug 30, 2008)

The only problem I see is that it will cause many to stumble.
To all who drink,do you drink the non alchoholic beers,I'm told some taste just as good ?


----------



## fishbone2149 (Aug 30, 2008)

THREEJAYS said:


> The only problem I see is that it will cause many to stumble.
> To all who drink,do you drink the non alchoholic beers,I'm told some taste just as good ?



No they are not.  There is something missing, oh yeah it's the alcohol.


----------



## THREEJAYS (Aug 30, 2008)

fishbone2149 said:


> No they are not.  There is something missing, oh yeah it's the alcohol.



That's what I thought


Dick Winters said:


> Whoever told you that is a liar and shall burn in the pits of Hades.
> 
> Dw



I'll let my preacher know in the morning so he can repent


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 30, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Do you think Christians should drink alcohol?  If not, why  not?



No!  Christian should be on the wagon for a few hundred yrs provided some disgruntled and grumpy muslims partake  for a few centuries and lighen up. Who knows they might learn or find a need to sing like the Irish.

Seriously though, wine making is work and work is prayer, so drinking suds is the promotion and support of prayer.

If you think I'm being silly you are right. This is the right forum for it, right?


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 30, 2008)

THREEJAYS said:


> To all who drink,do you drink the non alchoholic beers,I'm told some taste just as good ?



Now drinking non-alcoholic beer....that is a sin


Actually, I don't think I've ever tasted non-alcoholic beer, but I hear it is pretty nasty stuff.  

Now for the original question...I'll reply like I always do to this thread...No. Not a sin in and of itself.  Now, it can lead to sin and get you into trouble.  Getting Drunk is a sin.  Causing another Christian to stumble is a sin.  So, do I drink at Sunday School parties where I know there are people who are legalistic and think it is a sin to drink? Or do I drink at Sunday School parties where I know there are some that have struggled with alcohol in the past?  No to both of those questions.  Why?  I might cause the struggling alcoholic to revert back to his drunken days and I might cause the legalistic Christian to get angery over a non-issue.


----------



## Dunamis (Aug 31, 2008)

Is partaking in alcohol, in and of itself, a sin. Simply put, no. It becomes sin when we develope a dependence thereon. For me, as a recovering alcoholic, drinking alcohol is a sin, because one drink will become twelve. For someone else that has never had a drinking problem and could sit a drink a couple beers or glasses of wine and stop, it's not a sin. This thread proves that it has been too difficult for the church to educate people on this subject because quite literally it's "different strokes for different folks". What works for one may not work for all. You can't post a bulletin board on I-75 that says "drinking is ok", because people will not take the time to fully educate themselves on this subject. That message would be taken to the extreme. Your average person wouldn't properly handle that level of truth. The easiest way for the church to address this issue is to black ball it all together. That way the subject is made a black and white issue with all grey areas removed. This is why our society believes drink in a sin...

On the other hand just because we CAN drink, Should we drink? We can't say "the bible says I can drink and if someone else hase a problem with it, well it's their problem!" That is completely against what the Bible teaches. We are to "rightly divide the Word of Truth". That means take the whole Bible into context. Yea we CAN drink, but is that drink worth the possibility of losing that one person that might just be watching your life for evidence of Jesus? Like it or not our society thinks that "drinking is a sin". We have to weigh that into this equation.

1 Cor 10:23 - You say, "I am allowed to do anything"-but not everything is helpful. You say, "I am allowed to do anything"-but not everything is beneficial."

Jesus warns us that we should not cause any to stumble. If we do cause someone to stumble, is it really thier problem or ours? According to the scriptures it's our problem, whether we know we caused them to stumble or not it's. I know we are going to make mistakes, who doesn't? That doesn't mean we should voluntarily make decision to increase our odds of being a stumbling block.

Matt 18:6 - "If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin (stumble), it would be better for him if a large millstone were hung around his neck and he were drowned at the bottom of the sea."

Paul said that he becomes all things to all men. Why, so that he might win one! Paul adapted to his environment. He made changes within himself to become more effective at sharing the gospel. Choosing NOT to drink when a non-drinker is around is in-fact respecting that individuals beliefs; however, if buying/partaking alcohol around certain people (pastors) makes you uneasy in the leaste, that may be the Holy spirit checking you on whether or not you should continue your actions. 


1 Cor 9:19-23 - 19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings"

Let's just be honest, if you find yourself having to defend the fact that you drink, is it really that important to you? If you answered yes, you may have a problem...


----------



## Banjo (Aug 31, 2008)

> Jesus drank wine at the last supper, I am not saying its right,



Aren't we to follow Jesus' example?  The Psalms speak of "wine making the heart merry."  The new Zion is going to be flowing with wine.  

Again, what about the Lord's Supper.

To not drink wine in the Lord's Supper is a direct violation of a CLEAR command given by our Lord.  What makes man think he should decide what is acceptable in an ordinance that Christ set up?  I have seen people NOT take the Lord's Supper simply because wine was what was served.  That is preposterous.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 31, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Aren't we to follow Jesus' example? The Psalms speak of "wine making the heart merry." The new Zion is going to be flowing with wine.
> 
> Again, what about the Lord's Supper.
> 
> To not drink wine in the Lord's Supper is a direct violation of a CLEAR command given by our Lord. What makes man think he should decide what is acceptable in an ordinance that Christ set up? I have seen people NOT take the Lord's Supper simply because wine was what was served. That is preposterous.


 
Here we go again......
If I drink grape juice in communion, did I violate God's command?

What was our example?

Jesus drank fruit of the vine. People have argued that fruit of the vine was wine fermented or not fermented. I don't know what was in Jesus's cup, but it was fruit of the vine. I have no problem if Jesus drank fermented wine. But to think God would not be honored by communion with with grape juice is just flat wrong.
What about our brothers like Dunamis that is trying to stay sober. Would you order him to take wine?

The point is that it is not really what is in the cup, it is the fellowship of your soul to God that is important. Not the drink. The commands were to have a pure heart, not wine.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 31, 2008)

I have to get ready for church, but I have a second.  

My point is, Jesus used wine (fermented, after all that is the difference between wine and grape juice).  Shouldn't we want to do as He did?

Don't get me wrong, were I worshiping in a Baptist church, and all they offered was grape juice, I would take it gladly.  

If a thimble-full of wine pushed Dunamis over the edge, I would imagine he wanted to go there....  Now if Dunamis came over to my house for a barbecue, I would not encourage him to drink a beer.  Nor, would I drink one in front of him if it had the potential to cause him to stumble.


----------



## crackerdave (Aug 31, 2008)

Banjo said:


> I have to get ready for church, but I have a second.
> 
> My point is, Jesus used wine (fermented, after all that is the difference between wine and grape juice).  Shouldn't we want to do as He did?
> 
> ...



And there's the key word: STUMBLE! Paul tells us that anything we do to cause a weaker believer to stumble is sin   whether it's alcohol or some action of ours ,such as bickering over trivial things on this forum so others can read it and form the opinion that Christians are no different than anybody else in their behavior.It happens every day - there are hundreds of people whose only exposure to God is what they read here - think about it,and look at the number of times these threads/posts are viewed.God does!


----------



## Music Man (Aug 31, 2008)

I personally don't think Christians should drink alcohol.   IMO, it's a terrible witness for Christ.  

With that said, I believe that there are other "sins" that are often overlooked that hurt the testimony (gossip, lies, deceit, etc), while focusing on abstaining from alcohol.

I often think of the scripture where Jesus said it's not the things that go into a man (or woman) that defile him, but the things that come out of him (issues from the heart).    These things defile the man !!  (Mark 7:18-23)

But I can't use that as a reason to drink alcohol.   There's just nothing really good that's associated with alcohol, or any good that can come out of it, in my humble opinion.


----------



## crackerdave (Aug 31, 2008)

I agree,MusicMan - to drink in public is a terrible witness.I see no harm in a Christian having a couple drinks in their own home,though.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 31, 2008)

> I agree,MusicMan - to drink in public is a terrible witness.I see no harm in a Christian having a couple drinks in their own home,though.



This is unbelievable.  Why is drinking in public a terrible witness? I can't imagine Christians hiding away in their houses drinking a beer or a glass of wine. No wonder the world calls us hypocrites.  

Christ, who was the greatest Christian witness, drank wine at parties with many.  He even provided the wine for all at a wedding, if I  remember correctly.


----------



## DeepweR (Aug 31, 2008)

*crack*



Woodsman69 said:


> Gee we have never ever argued about this subject before.
> 
> What about smoking crack? Can I still as a Christian continue smoking crack? I mean I don't get all the way doped up just a little 10 second high off of a piece of rock thats all.



sounds like your experienced!


----------



## fishndinty (Aug 31, 2008)

I love how drinking in public is a terrible witness despite the fact that Christ himself did it.  Unbelievable.


----------



## Twenty five ought six (Aug 31, 2008)

Yeah, you bet that drinking in public is a terrible witness for Christ.

Better to sit there and witness by sharing a glass of ice tea with your second or third wife, while pigging out on 2000 calories of a  Double Big Mac with cheese and supersized fries.

Saying that drinking in public is a bad witness because someone else may be led astray, is the same as saying that SWMBO shouldn't get all made up and wear a nice dress when we go out to dinner because that might cause someone else to lust in his heart, and if he goes and rapes someone, it's all her fault--- a person who gives himself over to any of his passions will always find someone else to blame.


----------



## Big Texun (Aug 31, 2008)

Why do you never take just one Baptist fishing?


----------



## Big Texun (Aug 31, 2008)

Because he'll drink all your beer.

Take 2 and they'll never touch a drop.

That, my friends, is what causes people to stumble.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 31, 2008)

Invite one, he'll drink all your beer.

Invite two and neither of them will drink a drop!

What is the difference between a Presbyterian and a Baptist in a liquor store?


----------



## MLCausey (Aug 31, 2008)

Banjo...we finally agree!!!
I see nothing wrong with having a drink as long as it doesn't turn into drunkeness, cause us to stumble in our Faith, or lead to any sinning acts.  I'm still waiting to see the scripture that backs up one of the posters that said drinking is a sin.
I don't agree with drinking when it becomes a dependence/addiction or if it causes one to lose self control....as I witnessed last night at the new Wild Wing here in Macon...too many Dawg fans that must have had a beer for every point scored!
Side note here, we have been to the one in Augusta and we've been to this new one and the wings are great!  FYI!


----------



## Music Man (Aug 31, 2008)

So it would be cool for the Pastor to pop a top on a beer (pick your poison) and drink it during his sermon instead of a glass of water?   

There's no difference in the beer or the water?

Where do we draw the line?  ie, drugs?

I believe that those things that come out of the issues of my heart is what defiles me (according to what Jesus said).

A mouthful (or choose your amount) of alcohol will never defile me.

But, doesn't my witness flow out of me also (good or bad)?   It can either edify Christ, or defile me.   I just think that drinking in public or *private* is a not a good witness to Christ and the work that He has begun in me.


----------



## Music Man (Aug 31, 2008)

MLCausey said:


> Banjo...we finally agree!!!
> I see nothing wrong with having a drink as long as it doesn't turn into drunkeness, cause us to stumble in our Faith, or lead to any sinning acts.  I'm still waiting to see the scripture that backs up one of the posters that said drinking is a sin.
> I don't agree with drinking when it becomes a dependence/addiction or if it causes one to lose self control....as I witnessed last night at the new Wild Wing here in Macon...too many Dawg fans that must have had a beer for every point scored!
> Side note here, we have been to the one in Augusta and we've been to this new one and the wings are great!  FYI!




Can't find a scripture that says "_Thou shalt not drink_", but my conviction is that it is not a good witness for my Savior. 

Doesn't make me any holier or better than anyone else (drinker or not), but I choose to abstain from it because it's the right thing for me to do.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 31, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Christ, who was the greatest Christian witness, drank wine at parties with many.


 
He did? When was that?


----------



## Mako22 (Aug 31, 2008)

Just like last time this came up most of you are all wrong and one of you claims to be a God called preacher.
The Bible is clear that drinking of booze it wrong, a drop of booze never touched the Lord's mouth. The English word wine in the KJV does not always mean fermented alchohol, sometimes it means grape juice. Keep on drinking and later you can talk to Jesus face to face about it..........


----------



## Twenty five ought six (Aug 31, 2008)

> There's no difference in the beer or the water?



No one said that.

On the other hand, if we really want to return to the "early church", sharing a jug of wine and food would probably be in line with how some of the early services were conducted.




> Keep on drinking and later you can talk to Jesus face to face about it..........
> Reply With Quote



Looking forward to it.  I want to ask him exactly how "good" what that wine he made for the wedding at Cana.



> And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: _but thou hast kept the good wine until now_.





> What is the difference between a Presbyterian and a Baptist in a liquor store?



The Presbyterians wave at each other.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 31, 2008)

Here is my take on it, for what it is worth.

Drinking alcohol in moderation is not forbidden, per se, in the Bible. During biblical days, it was a common drink of the Jews. Some was strongly fermented, and some was fermented just enough to perserve it. When in season, it was common to also drink the fruit of the vine, unfermented.

Today's age, drinking is percieved negatively. It makes Christians appear hypocritical. If I go out and drink with the world on Saturday, then attend church on Sunday, am I a hypocrit?
Some say no, some say yes.

There are other sins, that even though equally wrong, does not carry the negative stigma form society that makes it hypocritical. Take gluttony for example. A baptist preacher can make jokes about how much fried catfish he can eat at one time, and people laugh. But, if he tells the congregation how much beer he drank last night, it would be met with dropped jaws. Probably a not so nice dismissal letter.

Is it fair that we hold on thing above another? No. But we do.

What does the Bible say?

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others _do,_ but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and _as_ a helmet the hope of salvation. 
19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil. ( 1 Thessalonians 5)

Since society today has made the drinking of alcohol something closer to evil than righteousness, is drinking now forbidden, when it may have been OK back then?

  30 Those who linger long at the wine, 
      Those who go in search of mixed wine. 
       31 Do not look on the wine when it is red, 
      When it sparkles in the cup, 
_When_ it swirls around smoothly; 
       32 At the last it bites like a serpent, 
      And stings like a viper. (Proverbs 23)

Wine and strong drink can make you weak and more acceptable to sin, which can come back and bite you.

1 Wine _is_ a mocker,
      Strong drink _is_ a brawler, 
      And whoever is led astray by it is not wise. (Proverbs 20)

If wine is a mocker, what does drinking wine do to your testimony for Christ?

Is it OK to drink? I have battled this question. I think it may be OK on occassion, such as a glass of wine during an anniversary dinner, using it in communion, etc. 
What about a few beers at a bar after work?
Just be mindful if you feel it is OK, what does others around you think? Does it give you an appearance of evil? Does it mock God? Will it bite you like a viper?

One thing is for certain drinking might not send you to hel l, but it will make you smell like you have been there. (borrowed from a beloved pastor)
Should we smell like we have been there?


----------



## BRANCHWYNN (Aug 31, 2008)

no......its called MODERATION.

just like when you sit down to eat. But, Im sure the folks who thinks its a sin to partake in a glass of wine or a few beers on a hot southern day...would never dream of OVEREATING and clogging their arteries with 6-7 thousand calorie single meals. 

I came in yesterday after cleaning out the garage and doin some pressure washing...not a single drink or co-cola in the house...reached way in the back and found a VERY cold wet LITE BEER FROM MILLER.....then I finished my yard work and was thankful for something refreshing. The problem with drinking are the drinkers not the beverage itself.


----------



## Music Man (Aug 31, 2008)

Twenty five ought six said:


> No one said that.
> 
> On the other hand, if we really want to return to the "early church", sharing a jug of wine and food would probably be in line with how some of the early services were conducted.
> 
> ...


----------



## Music Man (Aug 31, 2008)

Sorry about cutting your quote up twenty-five.....it didn't post right for me.  Sorry!


----------



## Banjo (Aug 31, 2008)

MLCausey,

I am glad that we have found common ground.  I imagine that we have much more in common than enjoying a cold one.  I am in Macon too...  We may have even run across each other and not known it.  You are the second person to tell me how good the new wing place is out at the mall.  I am going to have to see for myself!


----------



## Banjo (Aug 31, 2008)

> He did? When was that?



I was thinking of the wedding feast and the Lord's Supper.


----------



## SBG (Aug 31, 2008)

The Bible is quite clear on drunkeness- it is a sin and should be refrained from. A slight buzz is drunkeness...secular science will validate that. Would a thrice holy God create a drink at a wedding that would cause people to sin. Of course not.


----------



## Banjo (Aug 31, 2008)

I am not sure you can use that argument.  

God created sex.  Fallen man has perverted it and it can be used as an occasion to sin (adultery, fornication, homosexuality, rape, etc.)...


----------



## SBG (Aug 31, 2008)

Banjo said:


> I am not sure you can use that argument.
> 
> God created sex.  Fallen man has perverted it and it can be used as an occasion to sin (adultery, fornication, homosexuality, rape, etc.)...




Creating sex in the realm of holy matrimony and providing a substance that leads to sinfulness is not analogous.


----------



## josh84 (Aug 31, 2008)

All you need to do is ask 10 lost people if it is okay for a christian to drink and get their response.


----------



## crackerdave (Aug 31, 2008)

Banjo said:


> This is unbelievable.  Why is drinking in public a terrible witness? I can't imagine Christians hiding away in their houses drinking a beer or a glass of wine. No wonder the world calls us hypocrites.
> 
> Christ, who was the greatest Christian witness, drank wine at parties with many.  He even provided the wine for all at a wedding, if I  remember correctly.



Banjo-
 I don't "hide away in my house," but I don't hang out in bars,either.My point is this: What would someone think - if you had been witnessing to them and trying to get them to come to church - and they saw you coming out of a bar? How much credibility would you have?

 I understand what y'all are saying about the gluttony being just as bad,but as others have said - it's about moderation and perception.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 31, 2008)

_Christ, who was the greatest Christian witness, drank wine at parties with many._



Banjo said:


> I was thinking of the wedding feast and the Lord's Supper.


 
You make it sound like Jesus was whooping it up at a party.

Jesus did not drink wine at the wedding.

The Lord's supper was hardly a party.

We do not know if the "fruit of the vine" that Jesus drank was fermented or not. I highly doubt it because Jesus said he would not drink it again until he did with them in heaven. I am having a hard time picturing a liquor store in heaven.


----------



## BRANCHWYNN (Aug 31, 2008)

*No Offense....*



Woodsman69 said:


> Just like last time this came up most of you are all wrong and one of you claims to be a God called preacher.
> The Bible is clear that drinking of booze it wrong, a drop of booze never touched the Lord's mouth. The English word wine in the KJV does not always mean fermented alchohol, sometimes it means grape juice. Keep on drinking and later you can talk to Jesus face to face about it..........


 
But you seem quite adimant about this....please produce the scripture that states what your comment so strongly suggest. You being so SURE of this...I would think you could flip right to the scripture. And don't tell me what SOME preachers opinion is....afterall, you have already suggested that one was not a TRUE preacher...so just show me that scripture. If its not there...its OKAY.....everybody wont turn into an alcoholic. I have a relationship with CHRIST ....it doesn't take me bein face to face to have fellowship with him now. WE all choose to believe what we want...I have been totally convinced in the past that something was of scripture...and have been wrong. But the answer was not presented to me by a man.


----------



## Banjo (Sep 1, 2008)

> What would someone think - if you had been witnessing to them and trying to get them to come to church - and they saw you coming out of a bar?



Rangerdave,

You don't have to go to a bar to have a drink. I never do.


----------



## Banjo (Sep 1, 2008)

What do you all think about all the positive statements concerning wine:

Psalm 4:7 compares joy in the Lord to the abundance of wine
Psalm 104:14-15 credits God as the creator of wine that "makes a man's heart glad."

Prov. 3:10 states that honoring the Lord with one's wealth is rewarded with the blessings of abundant stores of wine.

The Lord prepares a banquet with "well-aged wines".... and fine, well-aged wines for his people in Isaiah 25:6.  This certainly doesn't sound like grape juice because aging ferments it.

The lack of wine is viewed as judgment (Jer. 48:33, Lam. 2:12, Hos. 2:9, Joel 1:10, Hag. 2:16)

The abundance of wine is a blessing from the Lord (Gen. 27:28, Deut. 7:13, Joel 2:19,24, Amos 9:13-14).

John the Baptist abstained from drinking wine; Jesus did not abstain.  

Luke 7:33-34:  "For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon!'  The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look at him, a glutton and a DRUNK, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'"

Obviously this passage ought to settle whether or not Jesus imbibed.  While I am in no way advocating that Jesus EVER got drunk, he certainly wasn't drinking Welch's grape juice.


----------



## Banjo (Sep 1, 2008)

> You make it sound like Jesus was whooping it up at a party.



Please let me clarify.  First of all, I don't want to come across irreverently or flippantly concerning Jesus.  I abhor the whole "Jesus is my home-boy" mentality.

Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  Jesus is the second person of the Holy Trinity, God incarnate.  When I finally see Him, I know that I will fall on my face before Him.

However, Jesus did eat and drink while on earth as I demonstrated in the above post.  He attended parties like the wedding feast.  Do you think He just sat in the corner?


----------



## farmasis (Sep 1, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Obviously this passage ought to settle whether or not Jesus imbibed. While I am in no way advocating that Jesus EVER got drunk, he certainly wasn't drinking Welch's grape juice.


 
You do not know that!!!

It was fruit of the vine.


----------



## jmharris23 (Sep 1, 2008)

Woodsman69 said:


> Just like last time this came up most of you are all wrong and one of you claims to be a God called preacher.
> The Bible is clear that drinking of booze it wrong, a drop of booze never touched the Lord's mouth. The English word wine in the KJV does not always mean fermented alchohol, sometimes it means grape juice. Keep on drinking and later you can talk to Jesus face to face about it..........




Once again, and I assume you are talking about me, the so-called preacher, I don't drink. 

I simply asked for a back-up of your opinion with scripture. 

As far as your interpretation of the KJV, you are SO wrong. It never means grape juice. I can prove that too. SO give me some references and scripture so we can keep this up. 

If you can't, what I would do is just say that it is against your convictions to drink and leave it at that.

As far as your last statement, Keep on being legalistic and mean-spirited and one day you can stand in line with all the drinkers and when Jesus gets through chewing them out for "letting booze cross their lips" He'll jump on you....


----------



## farmasis (Sep 1, 2008)

JM, what about fruit of the vine? That is not always wine, is it?
Some pretty good info, if interested. Arguments for both sides.

http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/volume10/TM010158.htm

http://www.kc-cofc.org/39th/IBS/Tracts/whatis.htm

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/3753

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/224-was-the-fruit-of-the- vine-fermented


----------



## SBG (Sep 1, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> Once again, and I assume you are talking about me, the so-called preacher, I don't drink.
> 
> I simply asked for a back-up of your opinion with scripture.
> 
> ...



Actually it does often mean fresh rendered grape juice.


----------



## jmharris23 (Sep 1, 2008)

SBG said:


> Actually it does often mean fresh rendered grape juice.



I am willing to admit I am wrong but I want someone to show me


----------



## Banjo (Sep 1, 2008)

farmasis,



> You do not know that!!!



Why would any one have accused Jesus of being a drunk if he was drinking unfermented grape juice?  Also, there is a clear distinction made in that verse concerning John the Baptist who abstained from alcohol, and Jesus who partook.


----------



## jmharris23 (Sep 1, 2008)

Farmasis, For example: This is from this link

http://www.kc-cofc.org/39th/IBS/Tracts/whatis.htm

“Wine” Never Used

Again, when we look to the New Testament, the advocates for fermented wine on the Lord's table find no solace. There are two main Greek words translated “wine.” The first (oinos) is the usual word for intoxicating wine. The other (gleukos) is a word found only one time (Acts 2:13) and referred to fresh-squeezed juice. It was sometimes called “new wine.” To say that this must have been an intoxicant from Acts 2:13 misses the point of why the accusation was hurled at the apostles. Notice what was going on: “But others MOCKING said, They are filled with new wine (gleukos)” (Acts 2:13). 

The behavior of the apostles was so strikingly different from any ordinary drunkenness precipitated the crowd in saying they were filled with “new wine,” something impossible upon which to become drunk.


I am not sure where they are getting their info for this statement. Every Greek reference tool I own, and I own quite a few, states that the word (gleukos) or "new wine" comes from a the root word(glukus) "sweet wine" which was the most potent wine available.

That only makes sense in the context. Why would a group think they were drunk on wine that couldn't get them drunk. 

That would be like me pointing at you and saying "look he's drunk on water?"

 Personally, I don't have a horse in this race. I am just debating for fun this morning

My opinion is that I don't think its a good idea for Christians to drink for a lot of reasons. 

1. Its addictive
2. It can ruin your witness
3. It can ruin your family
4. There is no need to drink it (unless Dr prescribed)
5. It really doesn't taste good
6. Its mainly a social thing and we are supposed to be different than society
7. I'm sure there are more reasons

I also KNOW that there is NOT a biblical mandate that we don't drink.

If there is I want to see it. 

I am in no way trying to make light of your references but the ones trying to say "don't drink" seem to grasping at straws to make their opinion work.


----------



## Twenty five ought six (Sep 1, 2008)

O.K.  I have a question.

If the beverage of choice at the Last Supper was "fruit of the vine", a/k/a Welch's Grape Juice, and being as we know that the Crucifixion was at Passover, and being as we know that Passover has been in the spring for the last 4000 years or so, where did the grapes come from?  Were there some special "Jesus Grapes" that ripened months before other grapes did?


----------



## jmharris23 (Sep 1, 2008)

Twenty five ought six said:


> O.K.  I have a question.
> 
> If the beverage of choice at the Last Supper was "fruit of the vine", a/k/a Welch's Grape Juice, and being as we know that the Crucifixion was at Passover, and being as we know that Passover has been in the spring for the last 4000 years or so, where did the grapes come from?  Were there some special "Jesus Grapes" that ripened months before other grapes did?





 You know He did 'cause He surely wasn't going to let the "booze" touch his lips.


----------



## Big7 (Sep 1, 2008)

*Just wine.*

The Eucharist is a true Sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ. 
The matter for the consummation of the Eucharist is bread and wine.

More HERE: http://www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm#Dogma-XVI-Last

Folks, It is not grape juice.
As far as that goes, not any juice.

Many are "Fruits of the Vine" - That may
all be made into wine.

Snap beans grow on a vine too...

You wouldn't "drink snap bean juice" for Communion. would you? 

Scripture is very clear - not juice - not - vinegar.
Just wine. 

Check this out too... Please!
http://www.usccb.org/video/sacraments.shtml


----------



## leftehud (Sep 1, 2008)

if Christ did not make wine at the wedding feast why in the world would the governor of the feast ask why the good stuff was saved for last.
We all know what the good stuff is. There are many things in this life that we have made sinful when abused that will be redeemed on that day. As Christians we need to be in the business of redeeming things God created for our enjoyment and stop binding others with our personal convictions. No wonder the lost world would think it wrong for a christian to drink. We are the ones that indoctrinated that into our culture. We wonder why its so hard to reach the lost. To talk about our christianity. We spue our poison of its wrong to have chicken wings and a good micro brew on occasion with friends that also love Jesus


----------



## Bubba moore (Sep 1, 2008)

*Drinking*

The Answer Is Simple Guys.if You Truely Have A 
Personal Relationship With Christ,the Holy
Spirit Will Talk To You & Give You The Right Answer.


----------



## Big Texun (Sep 1, 2008)

Music Man said:


> So it would be cool for the Pastor to pop a top on a beer (pick your poison) and drink it during his sermon instead of a glass of water?



Actually, I think it would be refreshing to see this very thing. Probably help lead a lot of people to the Lord also.

Conversely, the pastor that thumps the pulpit and inaccurately proclaims that drinking ANY alcohol is a sin, creates "hypocrites" out of 70% of his flock. Who is committing the greatest sin, the non-biblical pastor or the "hypocrites" in his flock?


----------



## farmasis (Sep 1, 2008)

Big7 said:


> The Eucharist is a true Sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ.
> The matter for the consummation of the Eucharist is bread and wine.
> 
> More HERE: http://www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm#Dogma-XVI-Last
> ...


 
Grape juice is fruit of the vine also.
Your priest is going to change it into blood anyway, so why do you worry about what is in the cup?


----------



## Big7 (Sep 1, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Grape juice is fruit of the vine also.
> Your priest is going to change it into blood anyway, so why do you worry about what is in the cup?



He has turned water into wine.
Do you not believe that he can turn wine into His Blood?

PS - You are right about the "turning into Blood part"

I don't know why you guy's have such a hard time with this?

Still: What about the "snap bean juice"? Would that work?

Answer: No, because it IS NOT WINE!


----------



## farmasis (Sep 1, 2008)

Big7 said:


> He has turned water into wine.
> Do you not believe that he can turn wine into His Blood?
> 
> PS - You are right about the "turning into Blood part"
> ...


 
I was just pokin you a little about the blood thing.

Snap bean juice? No, it is explained here---

Indeed, the terms “vine” and “vineyard” are so universally associated with grapes and wine made from grapes, that William Smith, under the entry for the word “vine,” wrote: “The vines of Palestine were celebrated both for luxuriant growth and for the immense *clusters of grapes* which they produced” (1870, 4:3446, emp. added). In _Vine’s_ _Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words_, W.E. Vine included the following statement with his definition of “wine”: “In instituting the Lord’s Supper He [Jesus—KB] speaks of the contents of the cup as the ‘fruit of the vine.’ So Mark 14:25” (1997, p. 1232). In _The Expositor’s Greek Testament_, A.B. Bruce summarized Jesus’ statement in Matthew 26:29 in the following words: “It is the last time I shall drink paschal...*wine* with you. I am to die at this Passover” (2002, 1:312).
It is an absolutely established fact that Jesus’ disciples, as well as the broader first-century readership of the gospel accounts, understood Jesus’ phrase “fruit of the vine” to refer to juice from grapes [NOTE: There is ongoing debate as to whether the grape juice was fermented or unfermented. For a brief, but trenchant discussion of this debate, see Jackson, 2000). 

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/3753


----------



## Buckmoses (Sep 1, 2008)

As a recovering alcoholic for 10 years, I do not think drinking responsibly is a sin, no more than it isn't a sin to eat sweets-unless you are diabetic.  Diabetics know the harmful effects sugar has on their system.  It would be a sin to have that knowledge and eat something that destroys your  body.  

Alcoholism closely mimicks diabetes.  You either have the gene or you don't.  I spent 35,000 dollars to attend the best treatment center in America, and I have participated in AA the rest of the time.  For the 90% who can imbibe responsibly, fly at it. It you can't handle it but still partake, you will live totally disconnected from God- chained to the sidelines of life as it passes before you just out of reach until you surrender.

People who drink in front of me asks me if it bothers me for them to drink.  I tell them if it don't bother you that I don't, then it doesn't bother me if you do.  I don't go out looking for it, but I am not going to deny someone the enjoyment simply because I can't, no  more than a diabetic would get mad if you ate a piece of pecan pie in front of them.


----------



## Big7 (Sep 1, 2008)

farmasis said:


> I was just pokin you a little about the blood thing.
> 
> Snap bean juice? No, it is explained here---
> 
> ...



You sure you aren't Catholic, or do you just like messin' with me? 

You sound like one of us most of the time!?


----------



## Big7 (Sep 1, 2008)

Buckmoses said:


> As a recovering alcoholic for 10 years, I do not think drinking responsibly is a sin, no more than it isn't a sin to eat sweets-unless you are diabetic.  Diabetics know the harmful effects sugar has on their system.  It would be a sin to have that knowledge and eat something that destroys your  body.
> 
> Alcoholism closely mimicks diabetes.  You either have the gene or you don't.  I spent 35,000 dollars to attend the best treatment center in America, and I have participated in AA the rest of the time.  For the 90% who can imbibe responsibly, fly at it. It you can't handle it but still partake, you will live totally disconnected from God- chained to the sidelines of life as it passes before you just out of reach until you surrender.
> 
> People who drink in front of me asks me if it bothers me for them to drink.  I tell them if it don't bother you that I don't, then it doesn't bother me if you do.  I don't go out looking for it, but I am not going to deny someone the enjoyment simply because I can't, no  more than a diabetic would get mad if you ate a piece of pecan pie in front of them.



I'm glad you got sober. GOOD FOR YOU!
a lot of things my friends tempt me with have the same effect on me. 
I tell them the same thing you just told us. I just replace your word alcohol with (whatever
for our purpose here)

In order to properly receive Communion one does not need partake of both Species: 
One or the other is the same and equal. So, if you totally abstain from alcohol; there are
ways to receive TOTALLY!

The "wine" used for consecration is: 
1) Not the strong kind anyway.
2) Is watered down a little in keeping with the Sacrament.
(Not that it would matter in your situation, keeping away from alcohol)

Communion under Both Kinds***
Communion under one kind is the reception of the Sacrament of the Eucharist under the species or appearance of bread alone, or of wine alone, Communion under two or both kinds, the distinct reception under the two or both species, sub utraque specie, at the same time. In the present article we shall treat the subject under the following heads: 

***Read more HERE: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04175a.htm


----------



## BRANCHWYNN (Sep 1, 2008)

*Now That....*



Buckmoses said:


> As a recovering alcoholic for 10 years, I do not think drinking responsibly is a sin, no more than it isn't a sin to eat sweets-unless you are diabetic. Diabetics know the harmful effects sugar has on their system. It would be a sin to have that knowledge and eat something that destroys your body.
> 
> Alcoholism closely mimicks diabetes. You either have the gene or you don't. I spent 35,000 dollars to attend the best treatment center in America, and I have participated in AA the rest of the time. For the 90% who can imbibe responsibly, fly at it. It you can't handle it but still partake, you will live totally disconnected from God- chained to the sidelines of life as it passes before you just out of reach until you surrender.
> 
> People who drink in front of me asks me if it bothers me for them to drink. I tell them if it don't bother you that I don't, then it doesn't bother me if you do. I don't go out looking for it, but I am not going to deny someone the enjoyment simply because I can't, no more than a diabetic would get mad if you ate a piece of pecan pie in front of them.


 
IS A POST WORTH READING....AND ALLOWING YOURSELF TO UNDERSTAND IT.....GREAT POST ....THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTS.


----------



## Banjo (Sep 2, 2008)

> He has turned water into wine.
> Do you not believe that he can turn wine into His Blood?
> 
> PS - You are right about the "turning into Blood part"
> ...



Do you think we could get some kind of DNA analysis on the "blood" and the "bread?"


----------



## Music Man (Sep 2, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> Actually, I think it would be refreshing to see this very thing. Probably help lead a lot of people to the Lord also.
> 
> Conversely, the pastor that thumps the pulpit and inaccurately proclaims that drinking ANY alcohol is a sin, creates "hypocrites" out of 70% of his flock. Who is committing the greatest sin, the non-biblical pastor or the "hypocrites" in his flock?




Maybe I'm just thick-headed and stubborn, but I cannot possibly see how drinking alcohol will lead anyone to the Lord, especially by a pastor during a sermon.   Wow, think of how many souls would could have won to Christ by now if all the ministers through the years since Christ had only drank in front of them!

Not one example of it that I can find as a practice in the early church.   Not one example of it in Paul's or Peter's ministry in the new testament that I can find.   If this was an early church practice, I would like to see scripture.  

Hard to *create* a hypocrite when we all are hypocrites to some degree (me first and foremost!!) 


And I'll add that if it was _fermented_ wine (very well could have been) that was used at the Last Supper, did Jesus actually advocate that we drink it at any other time?   He didn't say that we couldn't, but there's no indication that we should partake of it other than this holy ordinance.   

In fact (several scriptures quoted in this entire thread) I believe that the scripture leads me to avoid it altogether.  

That's my conviction, and it's what I challenge other Christians to do also.


----------



## Banjo (Sep 2, 2008)

You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart.

(Psalm 104:14-15)

Sounds like to me that God gave us (alcoholic) wine to be enjoyed, to "gladden" our hearts.  

What are you guys who abstain going to do when the following occurs:

"Behold the days are coming, says the Lord, when the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him who sows seeds; the mountains shall drip with sweet wine, and all the hills shall flow with it.  I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them..."  

Amos 9:13-14


----------



## Music Man (Sep 2, 2008)

This is a great debate........apparently I've been missing out on a "gladdened heart" according to the scriptures, and I didn't even know it      My loss!

Just making the point the the Spirit of God is enough to satisfy me and make me glad.  I don't need any bottled spirits to do that for me.  

_Be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit_........   is good enough for me.    Ephesians 5:18


----------



## Banjo (Sep 2, 2008)

> did Jesus actually advocate that we drink it at any other time?



When he turned the water in to wine at the wedding feast, I bet it wasn't so they could just look at it.  

Also, there is that passage that speaks of Jesus coming and eating and "drinking" with the tax collectors.  

Look, if you don't want to drink.  I think that is fine.  However, it in no way makes people "super" spiritual as some think.  The problem I have have is when Christians try to impose their own legalism on other Christians by saying things like:

"Jesus never drank."
"It is o.k. to drink at home, but not in public."
"Grape Juice was used at the Lord's Supper."
"Drinking is a sin."
etc.

When I attended a Baptist church, I sat through a series of sermons on how the wine that Jesus drank was non-alcoholic.  Even as a new Christian, I knew there was something seriously wrong with that statement.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 2, 2008)

Music Man said:


> I personally don't think Christians should drink alcohol.   IMO, it's a terrible witness for Christ.
> 
> With that said, I believe that there are other "sins" that are often overlooked that hurt the testimony (gossip, lies, deceit, etc), while focusing on abstaining from alcohol.
> 
> ...



What about stuffing one's face at an "All you can eat" buffet?"

Those of you that don't drink, do you smoke/ dip?  Have tattoos? Piercings? Eat refined sugar?   geez.....


----------



## leroy (Sep 2, 2008)

this was put up by another woodite on another thread on alcohol thought it was good.   alot of good scripture references.

http://www.fbcw.org/media/sermon_notes/ShouldChristiansDrink.pdf


----------



## Big Texun (Sep 2, 2008)

Music Man said:


> Maybe I'm just thick-headed and stubborn, but I cannot possibly see how drinking alcohol will lead anyone to the Lord, especially by a pastor during a sermon.   Wow, think of how many souls would could have won to Christ by now if all the ministers through the years since Christ had only drank in front of them!



As the original poster of the "this would be refreshing" comment, I certainly would not advocate that all ministers drink alcohol during all sermons.  It would however, make for a very good occasional "shocking" point of truth.

As a person who was lost for the first 30+ years of his life, I can tell you that many in the lost world think that to become a Christian, they must give up everything that is "fun." IMHO, I think we need to show them that God loves them right where they are. To some that drink, the Lord may convict them to stop after they are saved and mature in the faith. To others, the Lord may convict them otherwise. 

BT


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 2, 2008)

Woodsman69 said:


> Gee we have never ever argued about this subject before.
> 
> What about smoking crack? Can I still as a Christian continue smoking crack? I mean I don't get all the way doped up just a little 10 second high off of a piece of rock thats all.



How about Tylenol?


----------



## Music Man (Sep 2, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> What about stuffing one's face at an "All you can eat" buffet?"
> 
> Those of you that don't drink, do you smoke/ dip?  Have tattoos? Piercings? Eat refined sugar?   geez.....




Certainly a valid point(s).   

Where do we draw the line on anything?   

I hear the argument "in moderation" a good bit.   

Can someone define moderation?

What about drugs?   Pornography?

I don't look down on Christians who drink --- it makes them no more a sinner than I am, and it certainly makes me no less a sinner than them.   I don't mean to sound condemning in my views.

As I stated in an earlier post, the issues out of our heart is what defiles us and makes us the sinner that we are ---- not the things that go into the body.


----------



## Big7 (Sep 2, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Do you think we could get some kind of DNA analysis on the "blood" and the "bread?"



Yes, I do.
When you get there, ask Jesus if he would give you a 
sample. Send it back here.

That would take care of all this back-n'-forth about
WHAT HE SAID ABOUT THE LAST SUPPER.

 This "IS MY BODY" and This "IS MY BLOOD".
DO THIS....... You know the rest.

Not play like or pretend like, etc.... 

AND!

HOW WE ARE TO CARRY IT ON AS A SACREMENT
NOT as symbolic!

Jesus said - He will do it - He can do it. and we all know
HE DID DO IT. Plus he passed this on to His Successors!
If you don't have a problem with all the other miracles,
why this one?

Notice: I said Successors, not HIS EQUAL!
We all know He has NO equal!

I don't know why you guy's have such a problem with this.


----------



## Twenty five ought six (Sep 2, 2008)

I continue to find it fascinating which "sins" get the focus of some "Christians".

For example, Paul tells us that it is better to remain celibate, but if we just have to, it's better to marry than to "burn".  When was the last time you heard a sermon on celibacy being the preferred status of a Christian, and marriage only being a salve for those with the "burning" sensation.


----------



## Music Man (Sep 2, 2008)

Banjo said:


> When he turned the water in to wine at the wedding feast, I bet it wasn't so they could just look at it.
> 
> Also, there is that passage that speaks of Jesus coming and eating and "drinking" with the tax collectors.
> 
> ...




 There are Christians who will try to impose legalism in many areas --- drinking, church attendance, dress code, etc.   I've tried never to impose my will on anyone else with regard to drinking, but I'm not afraid or ashamed to speak up and tell how I feel about the subject when asked.   

By my not choosing to drink alcohol, it does not make me any more holy than the Christian that does.   The blood of Jesus is the ONLY thing that can make us holy.

Each one of us has to make up our own mind as to how we are led by the Holy Spirit to lead our lives for Christ Jesus in this world today.   For me, that does not include drinking in any setting.   

Btw, your earlier post got me to thinking:  at what stage of consumption does the heart become glad?  Is there a point of too much and when is that?

Does Eph 5:18 bear any relevance on this subject?   _Be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spririt._


----------



## Music Man (Sep 2, 2008)

Twenty five ought six said:


> I continue to find it fascinating which "sins" get the focus of some "Christians".
> 
> For example, Paul tells us that it is better to remain celibate, but if we just have to, it's better to marry than to "burn".  When was the last time you heard a sermon on celibacy being the preferred status of a Christian, and marriage only being a salve for those with the "burning" sensation.




I agree 100%!

Sometimes we get more wrapped up in things like this drinking subject (although it is important, and quite fun to argue it), and let other things go by that probably carry a lot more weight.

I listen to a radio talk-show host that says he gets in more hot water with Christians who call in to his show when he speaks on the subject of alcohol sales on Sunday, but who go deaf & dumb when he mentions something like the number of murders on TV shows that they and their children are watching every DAY, and taking pleasure in it !

We rarely put the same judgement to ourselves that we do to others !!!

God help me!


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 2, 2008)

Music Man said:


> We rarely put the same judgement to ourselves that we do to others !!!



Now that just might be the quote of the century!!

Can we get that put up as a sticky or something for crying out loud!


----------



## Music Man (Sep 2, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Now that just might be the quote of the century!!
> 
> Can we get that put up as a sticky or something for crying out loud!


----------



## Big7 (Sep 2, 2008)

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=2546452&postcount=95

GREAT POST.
We need to look at ourselves - not at others, unless you can help
and NOT judge. Judgement is for The Lord only - not ANY of us!


----------



## Banjo (Sep 2, 2008)

> Yes, I do.
> When you get there, ask Jesus if he would give you a
> sample. Send it back here.



Hey.... we don't even need Jesus' DNA sample.  If you could prove to me that the priest (upon saying "Hocus Pocus") had turned the blood into actual flesh and the wine into actual blood, that would be more than enough proof for me....  DNA testing should be able to do that....


----------



## BookHound (Sep 2, 2008)

Drinking in moderation is not a problem.  Allowing the consumption to get out of control and rule your life is a problem.  

My ex-wife was Baptist and we attended a few different Baptist churches together.  I always laughed at the obese preachers pontificating about the evils of even one beer when they can’t seem to keep the donuts out of their fat faces.  That to me seemed very hypocritical.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 2, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Hey.... we don't even need Jesus' DNA sample.  If you could prove to me that the priest (upon saying "Hocus Pocus) had turned the blood into actual flesh and the wine into actual blood, that would be more than enough proof for me....  DNA testing should be able to do that....



It was good enough for Paul:

1 Corinthians 10:16

16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 


Banjo, why is it you demand a DNA test?  I don't see anyone questioning your Salavation after you jumped in a pool and "told" everyone you were saved.  Funny how some Christians demand "proof" yet claim to have faith...interesting.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 2, 2008)

BookHound said:


> Drinking in moderation is not a problem.  Allowing the consumption to get out of control and rule your life is a problem.
> 
> My ex-wife was Baptist and we attended a few different Baptist churches together.  I always laughed at the obese preachers pontificating about the evils of even one beer when they can’t seem to keep the donuts out of their fat faces.  That to me seemed very hypocritical.



Yepper


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 2, 2008)

Y'all do what you want.  I'm gonna go crack a cold one!  Just kidding.  I don't personally see anything that says it's a sin and I do so enjoy a cold one.

But I'm not going to tell you that you should drink or that you shouldn't.  I fall into the personal conviction line of thinking.  I think there can be two issues:  1) is it a personal conviction?  2)  Is it going to cause someone else to stumble?

If either is the case, then don't do it.  Otherwise, pass me one and turn the game on!


----------



## Big7 (Sep 2, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Hey.... we don't even need Jesus' DNA sample.  If you could prove to me that the priest (upon saying "Hocus Pocus") had turned the blood into actual flesh and the wine into actual blood, that would be more than enough proof for me....  DNA testing should be able to do that....



This is about how much time I will waste on you.
( )?


----------



## Banjo (Sep 2, 2008)

> Banjo, why is it you demand a DNA test? I don't see anyone questioning your Salavation after you jumped in a pool and "told" everyone you were saved. Funny how some Christians demand "proof" yet claim to have faith...interesting.



I don't demand a DNA test... just saying that something like transubstantiation can be proved without a doubt by science.  Why hasn't it ever been done????

Why don't you guys start a thread about it?  I am afraid that if I do, I will be called a Catholic basher....


----------



## farmasis (Sep 2, 2008)

Sorry for 

Back to my point, regardless if drinking in moderation is OK or not, and regarless if communion was done with fermented fruit of the vine, I believe God will be honored by an alcoholic that refrains from drinking wine (even a little thimble) and a group of believers who think that to refrain from the very appearance of evil, abstains from drinking altogether.


----------



## Bodab1974 (Sep 2, 2008)

I have one question,  when you have a tooth ache,   do you take medicane?   headache do you take asperin?  Do you drink coffee to help you wake up?  Do you eat a candy bar for that little extra energy boost?   Drinking alchohol is no different.   When a person has a beer or a drink,  he should show moderation.  Drinking is not a sin,  drunkeness is a sin.   hunger is not a sin,   gluttony is a sin.   Talking is not a sin,   lying is a sin.   Anything can become a sin if you allow them to go to that extent.

It all comes down to the temperence of the individual.  Overindulgance in anything is wrong,  but a cold beer on a hot summer day is not a sin.  I will stress the point  A cold beer..  not   A FEW cold beers.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 3, 2008)

Banjo said:


> I don't demand a DNA test... just saying that something like transubstantiation can be proved without a doubt by science.  Why hasn't it ever been done????
> 
> Why don't you guys start a thread about it?  I am afraid that if I do, I will be called a Catholic basher....



Why don't you PROVE you are saved?
Why don't you PROVE Jesus rose from the dead?
Why don't you PROVE God exists?
Why don't you PROVE the Bible is the inspired word of God?
Why don't you PROVE that Heaven exists?

It was good enough for Jesus as well:

John 6
48 I am that bread of life. 

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. 

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.


----------



## Banjo (Sep 3, 2008)

Believe me... if there was some kind of scientific test that I could take and know for sure, I would do it....

We are to examine ourselves daily to see if we be of the faith.  There are many days I feel like the person who said:

"Lord, I believe, help me in my unbelief."


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 3, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Believe me... if there was some kind of scientific test that I could take and know for sure, I would do it....
> 
> We are to examine ourselves daily to see if we be of the faith.  There are many days I feel like the person who said:
> 
> "Lord, I believe, help me in my unbelief."



Then why the double standard when it applies to others?


----------



## Banjo (Sep 3, 2008)

Double standard? I am not sure where that has been applied, unless by me suggesting you all could scientifically prove that the Mass does what it says it does....turns the wine and bread into the corporal body of Christ.  As a matter of fact, you guys may be the only religion that could SCIENTIFICALLY prove to the world that what you say happens, does.  

How could we get a sample of the elements used in a Mass?  What do you all do with the leftovers of the blood and body?

If we want to continue this discussion, we probably should do it in a different thread....  I know we are now terribly off topic.


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 3, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Double standard? I am not sure where that has been applied, ....



The double standard applies when YOU want us to prove an element of our "Faith," yet you want us to BELIEVE in your "Salvation" (an element of your faith) without scientific proof.


----------



## Big7 (Sep 3, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> The double standard applies when YOU want us to prove an element of our "Faith," yet you want us to BELIEVE in your "Salvation" (an element of your faith) without scientific proof.



BINGO!


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 3, 2008)

Guys, I think that her point is that YOUR element of faith is actually physically provable true or false if you believe that all of it turns to the body and blood.  Now, honestly, I don't know enough about it.  It could be that you believe that happens only AFTER you've taken the sacriments.  In that case, it would not really be provable.

But if all of it, after it is blessed, turns to body and blood, then yeh it is provable and it would be curious why you wouldn't want to do that...

Salvation would be tough to "prove", I agree.  I'm with Banjo, don't want to get this too far off topic.  Just wanted to try to clarify a bit.  It's not a double standard.  I think if I could actually prove my salvation scientifically...you better believe I'd do it!  Same standard....different provability.


----------



## FX Jenkins (Sep 10, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> Conversely, the pastor that thumps the pulpit and inaccurately proclaims that drinking ANY alcohol is a sin, creates "hypocrites" out of 70% of his flock. Who is committing the greatest sin, the non-biblical pastor or the "hypocrites" in his flock?



indeed...


----------



## hawglips (Sep 10, 2008)

Do you think Jesus got drunk?

If drinking alcohol is not a sin, is getting drunk a sin?  

If getting drunk is not a sin, is driving drunk a sin?

The bible doesn't say getting high on recreational drugs is a sin.  But is it?


----------



## gtparts (Sep 10, 2008)

If it enhances your finer qualities, go for it.
If it enhances your poorer attributes, you might want to leave it alone.

I've seen mean drunks. I've seen mean sobers. Neither is particularly pleasant.



Burrrrrrrp!

Just kidding!

Peace.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 10, 2008)

Would y'all PLEASE stop bumping this back up to the top?  It's only 3 and I've got a long ride home before I can get to my frig for a cold one!!!!!

To answer your questions in terms of how I read the Bible and what I believe....here goes.

Did Jesus ever get drunk?  Probably not.  

Is getting drunk a sin?  Yeh, I think it is (thus the answer to the first Q).

Is driving drunk a sin?  Yes.  If for no other reason than it is against the law and we are to submit to the authorities place over us.

Again, rec drugs is a sin if for no other reason than they are against the law and we are to follow the laws set for us.

Is drinking a sin?  Man I HOPE NOT!!!!!


----------



## Bodab1974 (Sep 10, 2008)

hawglips said:


> Do you think Jesus got drunk?
> 
> If drinking alcohol is not a sin, is getting drunk a sin?
> 
> ...




Lets follow your line of thought here....

If eating is not a sin,  is over eating a sin?

If overeating is not a sin,  is gluttony a sin?


If drinking a mood altering substance like wine,  in moderation is a sin,  the drinking other mood altering substances would concievably be a sin as well.   So it is a sin to drink....  soda, coffee, sweet tea, energy drinks, and hot chocolate.  Each of those drinks contain caffine,  which is a mood altering substance.   

You will of course argue that a cup of coffee does not alter your mood, just makes you more alert.   Therefore it is a stimulant.   If drinking coffee is not a sin, then smoking crack, snorting cocaine, using crystal methane, and taking speed would not be a sin.   All of the above are stimulants,  as is chocolate, coffee, tea, etc...

The gist of it is ANYTHING becomes a sin when taken to excess.   

I am not promoting the use of any illegal or harmfull substance,  but I want to make a point.


----------



## FX Jenkins (Sep 10, 2008)

a little more on the issue..you know, for research purposes..

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=193805


----------



## 5 o'clock somewhere (Sep 11, 2008)

I think you all are right!


----------



## Dunamis (Sep 13, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> Actually, I think it would be refreshing to see this very thing. Probably help lead a lot of people to the Lord also.
> 
> Conversely, the pastor that thumps the pulpit and inaccurately proclaims that drinking ANY alcohol is a sin, creates "hypocrites" out of 70% of his flock. Who is committing the greatest sin, the non-biblical pastor or the "hypocrites" in his flock?



This is ignorant thinking. Think about it like this, the Bible may not say explicitly that you can not drink. Aren't we required to be submissive to the heads of the local churches (Pastors) we attend and thier organizational by-laws? When we agree to become members of our local churches, don't we agree to uphold the teachings and beliefs of the church? That being the case, many church by-laws may say that drinking is a sin. While this thinking may or may not be biblically based, we choose to allow ourselves to be subject to such thinking. In so doing, are we being  the hypocrites, via insubordination and rebellion, by not following the church by-laws we clearly have agreed to support? If this is the case, we could always move our membership to be with like-minded people.

If you think about it, especially in the Bible Belt, drinking causes more problems than it solves. Like it or not, again especially in the Bible Belt, people have had the mind set that drinkig is a sin bred into them. The easiest was to deal with it is to leave it alone.

If you find yourself defending your drinking, you may have a problem? 

This thread is full of "justification". There are bigger issues at hand than just "can I drink" that need to be looked at.

 Christianity is not a "me me me" religion.


----------



## Laman (Sep 13, 2008)

So a church or pastor can set up their own laws that may not be biblically based? Interesting.


----------



## Dunamis (Sep 13, 2008)

I clarified myself rather well. Pastor's usually preach and teach thier denominations doctrinal views and by-laws, right? At least thats how I thought it worked. You choose what church affiliation you want to subscribe to, right? Is there any obligation, on our part, to  subject ourselves to thier teaching? Especially on a subject such as drinking. In all reality this is a trivial issue. It's only made a real issue when you have people with extreme "it's a sin" view point arguing with people with the "I want to drink" viewpoint.

How can this be the only thing you got from my post? ....


----------



## Dunamis (Sep 13, 2008)

Let me add something. We need to understand that the likeihood of any one denomination's "What we Believe" pamphlet being 100% spot-on from the Bible, with zero influence from tradition or opinion, is slim to none.

Bud, I didn't mean to single you out. Just asking...


----------



## Laman (Sep 13, 2008)

I am not going to argue with you pal, you brought the non-biblically based thinking into the equation.  Also, no I don't find you point very clearly defined, "drinking is a sin bred into them"?

It doesn't really matter as your views certainly won't affect mine.  In addition your response to my post absolutely tells me everything I need to know about you.


----------



## Dunamis (Sep 13, 2008)

Again, we need to understand that the likeihood of any one denomination's "What we Believe" pamphlet being 100% spot-on from the Bible, with zero influence from tradition or opinion, is slim to none.

It is what it is..


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 13, 2008)

...you have to drink alcohol when you eat this...

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=238720


----------



## Dunamis (Sep 13, 2008)

Son! Looks good, maybe one day I'll try it...


----------



## Bodab1974 (Sep 15, 2008)

Pastor at an old church I used to attend in Florida would have a beer with you at a BBQ.  He even made the statement that the drink is not a sin,  the drunkeness is.    

Does this fit into your picture of OK?   The pastor is telling his church the same thing that so many here are argueing for.   So in being submissive to the leadership of the church,   lets have a cold one.


----------



## Dunamis (Sep 17, 2008)

Concerning your question about your former pastor, here is my response. In that situation, if absolutely everyone at the BBQ shared the Pastors opinion about booze, then maybe it was ok. What you have to look at is whether or not you could,  intentionally or unintentionally, become a stumbling block to someone. It's novice thinking to say, "the Bible doesn't say I can't". We need to get past that and see that while the Bible may not say "you can't indulge", it's full of scripture conveying the messege " you may be able to, but should you and is it worth it?"

 The Bible calls subjects like this "weights". Is it right or wrong? Who knows for sure? If it hinders or holds you back, _*lay it down...*_. If we are to lay down what holds US back, how much more important is it for us to lay them down for others? That, my friend, is what Jesus was all about

Hebrews 12:1 - "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us."

I reposted my response to this issue from another thread to hopefully show my true opinion on this issue.



"After reading this thread I see thread different stand points: people supporting drinking; people opposing drinking; and those considering the impact on by-standers. 

Is partaking in alcohol, in and of itself, a sin. Simply put, no. It becomes sin when we develope a dependence thereon. For me, as a recovering alcoholic, drinking alcohol is a sin, because one drink will become twelve. For someone else that has never had a drinking problem and could sit a drink a couple beers or glasses of wine and stop, it's not a sin. This thread proves that it has been too difficult for the church to educate people on this subject because quite literally it's "_different strokes for different folks_". What works for one may not work for all. You can't post a bulletin board on I-75 that says "_drinking is ok_", because people will not take the time to  fully educate themselves on this subject. That message would be taken to the extreme. Your average person wouldn't properly handle that level of truth. The easiest way for the church to address this issue is to black ball it all together. That way the subject is made a black and white issue with all grey areas removed. This is why our society believes drink in a sin...

On the other hand just because we *CAN* drink, *Should *we drink? We can't say "_the bible says I can drink and if someone else hase a problem with it, well it's their problem_!" That is completely  against what the Bible teaches. We are to "_rightly divide the Word of Truth_". That means take the whole Bible into context. Yea we CAN drink, but is that drink worth the possibility of losing that one person that might just be watching your life for evidence of Jesus? Like it or not our society thinks that "_drinking is a sin_". We have to weigh that into this equation.

1 Cor 10:23 - _You say, "I am allowed to do anything"-but not everything is helpful. You say, "I am allowed to do anything"-but not everything is beneficial._"

Jesus warns us that we should not cause any to stumble. If we do cause someone to stumble, is it really thier problem or ours? According to the scriptures it's our problem, whether we know we caused them to stumble or not it's. I know we are going to make mistakes, who doesn't? That doesn't mean we should voluntarily make decision to increase our odds of being a stumbling block.

Matt 18:6 - "_If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin (stumble), it would be better for him if a large millstone were hung around his neck and he were drowned at the bottom of the sea_."

Paul said that he becomes all things to all men. Why, so that he might win one! Paul adapted to his environment. He made changes within himself to become more effective at sharing the gospel. Choosing NOT to drink when a non-drinker is around is in-fact respecting that individuals beliefs; however, if buying/partaking alcohol around certain people (pastors) makes you uneasy in the leaste, that may be the Holy spirit checking you on whether or not you should continue your actions. 


1 Cor 9:19-23 - _19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings_"

Let's just be honest, if you find yourself having to defend the fact that you drink, is it really that important to you? If you answered yes, you may have a problem... "


----------



## Big Texun (Sep 17, 2008)

Dunamis said:


> This is ignorant thinking. Think about it like this, the Bible may not say explicitly that you can not drink. Aren't we required to be submissive to the heads of the local churches (Pastors) we attend and thier organizational by-laws? When we agree to become members of our local churches, don't we agree to uphold the teachings and beliefs of the church? That being the case, many church by-laws may say that drinking is a sin. While this thinking may or may not be biblically based, we choose to allow ourselves to be subject to such thinking. In so doing, are we being  the hypocrites, via insubordination and rebellion, by not following the church by-laws we clearly have agreed to support? If this is the case, we could always move our membership to be with like-minded people.



Ignorant thinking?

When you start putting non-biblical church by-laws and traditions ahead of the holy bible, you are the one that is thinking ignorantly.

God authored the scriptures, every word, every dot and tittle, for His purposes alone. They, the scriptures, do not need for you or any of your deep south brethren to add to them whatsoever.

I have become quite active in a few churches here in the "deep south" only to realize that yes, I had to move my membership over some of your "deep south" traditions.

Here's an example: When nominated for the position of deacon in a local Baptist church, I was asked to sign a document that pledged that I would:

1). Always agree with any decision the pastor made, past present or future.

2). Immediately resign my position as a deacon if I ever disagreed with the pastor.

There were 10 pledges... I don't remember the rest of them but, the above two are no exaggeration.

Forget the alcohol, I will never sign a pledge that says I will agree with any *man* always. Oh, and in that particular church? The pastor was a 2 time divorcee, had abused contractors in a building program to the point of litigation, was not paying church bills, had hired a music minister that was an "ex-homosexual" (who still had a male roomate), and ran the business affairs of the church in an extremely non-Christlike tyranic sort of way. 

Kinda got off track I suppose... but, your deep south argument of blindly following the "Man of God" only works if your Man of God is truly a Man of God. Here's a little secret; they ain't always... and yes, it happens here in the deep south too.


----------



## Dunamis (Sep 18, 2008)

Thanks for your input! I have to say that the use of "you" and "your", intentionally or otherwise, come across in an attacking manner. It's not my south. I didn't make it. I simply grew up in it.

-"When you start putting non-biblical church by-laws and traditions ahead of the holy bible, you are the one that is thinking ignorantly."

Again, I didn't make things this way. It's not like churches got this way just within my 30 year lifetime. Churches do it all the time. It's sad. Church by-laws are held as equal to the Word. This should not be. As far as this, you are preaching at the choir. 

-"God authored the scriptures, every word, every dot and tittle, for His purposes alone. They, the scriptures, do not need for you or any of your deep south brethren to add to them whatsoever."

Again, preaching at the choir. I agree with you. Although we can come up with some pretty funny paraphrasing!!

-"I have become quite active in a few churches here in the "deep south" only to realize that yes, I had to move my membership over some of your "deep south" traditions."

I agree. At least I now feel validated that I'm not the only one that's seen this stuff.

-"Kinda got off track I suppose... but, your deep south argument of blindly following the "Man of God" only works if your Man of God is truly a Man of God. Here's a little secret; they ain't always... and yes, it happens here in the deep south too."

For the last time, I agree.  What did I say that leads you to think any of the opinions you posted about me? My intention for those comments was to show that, like it or not, the Bible DOES NOT come right out and say that drinking alcohol is a sin. Why? Because alcohol itself will NOT send you to hail. The dependency thereon is sin. Another issue is the destruction of the Christian witness  from people that have no self-control. The few ruin it for the many.These are the real issues that need to be dealt with. Instead of dealing with the real issues, the church began preaching and teaching against alcohol all together. What started out as an opinion of a few has now become almost a doctrine for the many. 

 Like it or not, it is what it is. I didn't single-handedly make the south this way. I simply grew up there. I've lived and learned from my mistakes...

If you believe your pastor to be placing doctrine/tradition on level ground with the Bible, then leave. I know I would. Sounds like that guy shouldn't have been the pastor anyway...

-"it happens here in the deep south too."

You are right! It happens more than people realize...


----------



## dawg2 (Sep 18, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> ... The pastor was a 2 time divorcee, ....



Well that right there should have been a red flag


----------



## Big Texun (Sep 18, 2008)

Dunamis said:


> Thanks for your input! I have to say that the use of "you" and "your", intentionally or otherwise, come across in an attacking manner.



Yes it did and I'm very sorry. I suppose when I read your post that quoted me and said, "This is ignorant thinking"... it kinda punched a hot button.

I can already tell... I've been spending too much time "swapping paint" in the political forum.

Sometimes, I can type faster than I can think. Again, sorry.


----------



## FX Jenkins (Sep 18, 2008)

I wish squirrels wouldn't eat antlers


----------



## Big Texun (Sep 18, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Well that right there should have been a red flag



Actually, that was one of the things that really didn't bother me. Going out on Tuesday night visitation, with a few students of my high school sunday school class in tow, and having total strangers say, "Oh, your pastor is XYZ? Let me tell you a little story about how he $#%@ me out of $20,000" - that was a problem.  Or, having my wife call me at work, in tears... because she'd just seen our young male music minister, whom we dearly loved, on a Christian TV program as a "reformed" homosexual... and telling me how upset she was that just the week prior, he had been assigned as my very young son's room chaperone on a youth trip to Florida.  And and and....


----------



## Dunamis (Sep 18, 2008)

No harm, no foul!


----------



## Big7 (Sep 21, 2008)

*Clear me up on this, please*

Guess most of you know by now, I'm Catholic.
Catholics have Dogma - it's not a by-law, it's THE LAW.
It is also the same for all Catholics. 
In other words, we don't have by-laws.

Can someone tell me what a "church by-law" is?
Examples, Please?

Thanks!


----------

