# English Flintlock Questions



## FROGSLAYER (Jan 5, 2013)

I have had this thing since the mid 90's and I never looked into it. I have an 1800s (?) English Muff Gun and I was hoping there may be someone on this forum knowledgeable. 

My confusion is ... with the research I have done, it appears that they all kind of look a like but with different names engraved on them. Examples I have found usually have "London" on one side and any of several names on the other, Thomas, Smith, Spencer, Carter, Jones etc. Mine has London and Spencer... What gives? Some have hidden triggers, no trigger guard and slight variations in the engraving.

I have also found them as singles and in pairs. Were most of these sold in pairs at the time or are people just pairing them up for sales? Given the name "muff gun" I wouldn't think a lady would be pack'n two in her muff .... (no jokes! LOL) 

What was the purpose for the turn off barrel? To clean it? Does it really turn off? I have not tried and honestly do not intend to.

How would I date the gun?

I suppose the answer will vary on this, should it be cleaned up or left as is? If I clean it what kind of finish could I expect. Most I see online almost look stainless!

Lastly, What would you rate the condition of mine on a scale of 1-10?

Here are some shots of mine ....











































Thanks for the input if there is any ... if not I hope you enjoy looking!



.


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## Supercracker (Jan 5, 2013)

Damon7145 said:


> I have had this thing since the mid 90's and I never looked into it. I have an 1800s (?)



I think these things started getting made about 1820 or so and by about 1840 were virtually all being made as percussion guns. So yours would fall in there somewhere



Damon7145 said:


> My confusion is ... with the research I have done, it appears that they all kind of look a like but with different names engraved on them. Examples I have found usually have "London" on one side and any of several names on the other, Thomas, Smith, Spencer, Carter, Jones etc. Mine has London and Spencer... What gives? Some have hidden triggers, no trigger guard and slight variations in the engraving.
> 
> 
> .



Lots of guns like this and shotguns would be made almost in bulk by the gunmakers guild or some other maker or collection of various tradesmen "for the trade" and the exact same gun would then have the eventual sellers (merchant or hardware store) name engraved on and also be embellished to order. 

Also, just because it has "London" on it does not automatically mean it's English. A TON of guns came out of Leige with "London" marked on them somewhere. the only way to accurately tell it's origin is with a good look at the proof marks and I can't see them well from your pics. If you post a good, clear close up of the proof stamps on the underside of the barrel I'll be happy to see if I can nail down that mark to an exact time period for that particular proof house. 



Damon7145 said:


> I have also found them as singles and in pairs. Were most of these sold in pairs at the time or are people just pairing them up for sales? Given the name "muff gun" I wouldn't think a lady would be pack'n two in her muff .... (no jokes! LOL)
> .



They could be sold either way. Westley Richards sold a butt load of very fine muff and pocket pistols in the early 19th century. Apparently before they were really a big name in the long gun world. 

The name "Muff Pistol" came from them being easily concealed by a lady in the fur "Muff" she would keep her hands warm in. The better ones had the folding triggers to help keep from getting hung up when being drawn from a pocket. 




Damon7145 said:


> What was the purpose for the turn off barrel? To clean it? Does it really turn off? I have not tried and honestly do not intend to.
> .



The barrel unscrews for loading (and cleaning too).  There is a special tool that engages that little lug for removing the barrel. if I understand correctly these would actually usually be loaded by a gunsmith for the customer. 

The way it was loaded is the barrel is unscrewed to reveal a small powder chamber in the breech. A small powder charge was put in there and a very slightly larger than bore size ball placed on top. When the barrel is screwed down it forces the ball into the bore swaging to to bore diameter with a very tight fit. This tight fit prevented blow by and allowed a large amount of pressure (relative to the comparatively small amount of powder)to build up behind the ball before it was discharged down the bore. These were expected to be fired with the barrel pretty much pressed up against the target. So they didn't need much power. In 1830 if a ball penetrated 2" into your gut you're a dead man. From what I remember reading these little guns terrified the thugs of the day. Because to be shot with one meant not just they were dieing, but they were going to die a lingering, excruciatingly painful death from infection and gangrene spread out over a couple of days. 

The tight bore seal also kept moisture out and allowed it to be kept loaded for a long time without the powder charge being contaminated. Important if you're getting a gun that you're going to hand to your wife and  the next time it will get any attention will be after it was used.

The "Screw Barrel" design was not limited to small pistols. I've seen pictures of full blown, .60 or so caliber cavalry holster pistols as screw barrels. In a reference book I have there is also a French large bore carbine rifle built as a screw barrel. Apparently it was made as a gift, from Napoleon, to one of his generals. 




Damon7145 said:


> I suppose the answer will vary on this, should it be cleaned up or left as is? If I clean it what kind of finish could I expect. Most I see online almost look stainless!
> 
> Lastly, What would you rate the condition of mine on a scale of 1-10?



DON'T CLEAN IT UP!!!!  Yours is in pretty good shape compared to the other original flint muff pistols I've seen and you would only decrease its value.  Although, I don't want to assign it a 1-10 grade, there is a whole grading system for assigning grades and scores to antique guns and I'm not familiar enough with it to do it and don't want to argue about it with anyone.

very nice little pistol you've got there.


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## flintlocker (Jan 5, 2013)

supercracker nailed it, I would also strongly suggest you dont clean it up.
Nice little pistol.


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## FROGSLAYER (Jan 5, 2013)

Thanks for the awesome information Supercracker! Here are what I think are the proofs you are referring to. I hoe you can tell from the por pictures I have. I will only post a couple of the best ones here, there are several in my profile album.
















Thanks again!  


Also no plans on cleaning it, was just inquiring.


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## flyfisher76544 (Jan 5, 2013)

Found this....at the bottom his pistols have proof marks that look similar to yours. Birmingham company...heres the link.

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/antique_guns/muff_pistols/muff_pist.html


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## FROGSLAYER (Jan 5, 2013)

flyfisher76544 said:


> Found this....at the bottom his pistols have proof marks that look similar to yours. Birmingham company...heres the link.
> 
> http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/antique_guns/muff_pistols/muff_pist.html



Great info thanks Flyfisher!


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## Supercracker (Jan 6, 2013)

flyfisher76544 said:


> Found this....at the bottom his pistols have proof marks that look similar to yours. Birmingham company...heres the link.
> 
> http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/antique_guns/muff_pistols/muff_pist.html




Yes, the best I can tell it appears to be the crown above crossed scepters or "Final Black Powder Proof Mark". Which was the proof mark used in the Birmingham Proving house for black powder weapons from 1813 -1904. According to "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks"

up close it should look very much like this except a slightly different crown and with a B & P as well as the V. Although, you might not be able to still make out any of this detail at this guns age. 






So while that doesn't narrow down the date any it does mean you have an English gun.


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## FROGSLAYER (Jan 6, 2013)

Great info guys ... thanks for all of your help!


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