# Christians: 'Not All Like That'



## bullethead (Sep 7, 2013)

http://news.yahoo.com/why-christians-want-know-theyre-not-195732216.html


Earlier this summer, Pat Robertson publicly lamented that Facebook lacked a "Vomit" button, which he would gladly click to show his displeasure with pictures of gay couples displayed on the social media site.

Instances like that have become synonymous with America's religious right. In fact, when a Christian-identified organization isn't anti-gay, the story instantly becomes newsworthy.

Still, there are plenty of self-identifying Christians in the U.S., men and women who attend church services and devoutly read the Bible, who don't tow that party line at all—they're just not often given a voice. 

But Dan Savage, creator of the "It Gets Better" campaign, launched another just week, this time named, The Not All Like That Christians Project, or NALT.

Seemingly inspired by an episode of Savage's own TakePart TV show, American Savage, the project invites Christians who support LGBT rights to film themselves offering messages of hope to the gay and trans community.

The content of the videos drives home the tenets of pro-LGBT Christians, who firmly believe that there's nothing inherently sinful or anti-biblical about being gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender.

More than 40 videos have been uploaded already, with more expected soon. Below are just a few of the highlights from that series. 

(see link for videos)


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## centerpin fan (Sep 7, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Seemingly inspired by an episode of Savage's own TakePart TV show, American Savage, the project invites Christians who support LGBT rights to film themselves offering messages of hope to the gay and trans community.



Jesus has a message of hope for the gay and trans community:

“Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” - Matt. 4:17


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## bullethead (Sep 7, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Jesus has a message of hope for the gay and trans community:
> 
> “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” - Matt. 4:17



Sounds more like centerpin fan trying to use Jesus' words to offer your own message.
Never fails how one's God thinks JUST like his followers.....


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2013)

Gay Christians make the grace/faith only believers rethink their stance. I'm OK with the work of repentance if it also includes repentance of cheating on your income tax return.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 8, 2013)

I saw this and thought it covers the issue well.



A Message To The Church From A So-Called "Ex-Gay"

mmoore0689
2013-07-05 13:08:00
NEW ORLEANS - (You all know much I don't like the term "Ex-Gay", but for the sake of not having a super long title, and since it's the most recognized term for people like me, I've chosen to use it here. Please don't assume that by using that term I mean that I have ceased to experience same sex attraction or have experienced any kind of sexual "re-orienation.")

With the ever quickening shift of our culture away from a moral/biblical view toward sexuality, I think there is a very real temptation for some Christians, especially in the American Church, to shift alongside the culture and adopt a different (unbiblical) view of sexuality...or just to sit back and remain silent about it. And I don't think my concern is unwarranted, because it's already happening. I'm not going to call out any names, ministries, or church denominations in this blog----I don't wish to give them any more publicity than they have already attained.

What I do want to do with this blog is urge every Christian that stumbles upon it not to compromise the gospel for the sake of social acceptance---or for the sake of anything else for that matter. Do not listen to the voices out there demanding your silence in the name of what they call "tolerance." Do not reject, or even subtly neglect, the truths in the Bible--such as truths about the sin of homosexual behavior--just because they are hard for the world to hear and accept. Don't listen to the professing "Christians" telling you the Church has misinterpreted the Scriptures for 2,000 years and that the Bible really does not condemn homosexual behavior. And please, do not throw out the truth of God because you hear of gay kids being bullied or committing suicide---these stories are horrifyingly sad---but the the condemn-able sins of the bullies do not make homosexual behavior any less of a sin. We should all (regardless of religious affiliation) be deeply troubled about kids being bullied for being gay (or weird, quirky, ugly, etc. for that matter) and do all we can to combat it, but denying the revealed truth about God regarding homosexuality can not be an option for the Christian.

Now hear me... and please hear me clearly... I am not saying you need to get on facebook every morning and post verses from Leviticus. I'm not saying you need to get all Westboro and picket gay marriage ceremonies. What I'm saying is that when you are put in a situation where you must take a stand on this issue---whether that be in sharing the gospel with a gay person, a discussion with family members, or whatever the case---stand firm in the truth. Do not be ashamed in saying, "I don't fully understand homosexuality, and I know those who struggle with it don't get to choose who they're attracted to; I can not possibly begin to understand what's that like. But I know that God condemns the behavior and forbids acting out on those temptations for the good of the person, because He loves them. God created our bodies and He created sex, so He has the authority to say how, and with who, it should take place. He doesn't want us to disobey Him because all disobedience does is separate us further from God and harden our hearts even more toward Him. I know that if they will turn from sin, trust in Jesus for forgiveness from ALL sin, and enter into a relationship with God through Him, they will experience far greater joy than anything in this world---including a gay relationship---could ever offer them. And I believe, even though it saddens me deeply, that if the person will not turn from sin and follow Jesus, God will be just in condemning them.... not because they're attracted to the same sex, but because they've rejected His Lordship, authority, and offer of salvation in Jesus."

I am also not saying that holding firmly to the truth means you should separate yourself from the gay people in your life. By all means, bring them into your homes, go into their homes, share meals, share discussions... do life with these people and love them unconditionally. But please do not, even for a second--- for the sake of their souls---condone their embracing of sin. Do not, even for a second---for the sake of their souls---assure them that they are safe in Christ. Now, I understand the ramifications of not compromising on this issue. I understand that in many situations, no matter how loving, tender, meek and lowly you are, the person embracing sin will angrily reject you and your friendship and separate themselves from you if you will not actively and vocally support their lifestyle. Even when this occurs... do not compromise the truth of God, and your witness, by condoning their embracing of sin. It is the gospel that is causing the division, not you... and Jesus promised this would happen.

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."- Matthew 10:34-39

If you've followed my writing for any amount of time, you know how hard I push for extending sympathy, love and a humble attitude toward the gay community. But I think it is just as vital, especially in these politically and socially charged times, to be just as adamant about standing in the truth of the Jesus as we are about extending the love and compassion of Jesus. The embracing of homosexual behavior (or the silence in regard to it) in the church is nothing more than a denial of the reality of sin and ultimately a denial of our Lord who came to save us from sin.

From personal experience I can tell you that it is when the body of Christ holds tightly to the truth of Christ, while extending the love of Christ, that hearts are softened and changed. Earlier this year when I was doubting everything that I had come to believe (the Bible) and was considering leaving the Church to enter into a gay relationship, my brothers and sisters in Christ came alongside me and truly exemplified the love and patience of God toward me. They talked with me, listened to me, cried with me. And they were also unwaveringly honest with me about the danger of embracing sin again... that it would ultimately mean that I was rejecting Christ. They assured me with all of their hearts that they were there for me no matter what I chose.... but if I decided to choose to embrace what God defines as sin, I could not be able to remain a member of the Church (I know that sounds harsh to most people.... but it's exactly what Paul commanded the Corinthian Church to do regarding the unrepentant sexually immoral man in 1 Corinthians 5. It's also what how Jesus commanded the situation to be handled in Matthew 18:15-17). Through their biblically balanced approach with me and my temporarily unrepentant heart, I experienced both the patience and compassion of God---- while also being constantly reminded of the serious consequences of not repenting. Obviously, here I am and I chose to believe God, turn from sin and keep trusting in Christ--and it was both the kindness of God and the fear of God (continually brought to my attention through other Christians) that the Holy Spirit used to produce repentance in my heart.

Don't believe the voices out there saying that it's impossible to both be truthful and graceful. It is possible. I urge you all, for the sake of the souls of the lost, extend the love of God with all your heart---and stand firm in His truth---so that when people do trust in the Jesus you've been telling them about, they trust in the real Jesus and not some imaginary, sin-condoning Jesus who doesn't exist and can't save them.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 8, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Sounds more like centerpin fan trying to use Jesus' words to offer your own message.
> Never fails how one's God thinks JUST like his followers.....



It's a good message, and everybody needs to hear it -- including me.


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## bullethead (Sep 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> It's a good message, and everybody needs to hear it -- including me.



 Very non-specific message.
It means different things to different people.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 8, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Very non-specific message.
> It means different things to different people.



It means "repent" to me.  What does it mean to you?


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## bullethead (Sep 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> It means "repent" to me.  What does it mean to you?



Repent from what?


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## bullethead (Sep 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Jesus has a message of hope for the gay and trans community:
> 
> “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” - Matt. 4:17



You were a little more specific here. According to you Jesus' message is specific to the gays and trans. What are they doing that Jesus does not approve of compared to what you do not approve of?
To many gays and trans they may feel they don't have to repent.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 8, 2013)

bullethead said:


> According to you Jesus' message is specific to the gays and trans.



C'mon, man.  That's not what I said.




bullethead said:


> To many gays and trans they may feel they don't have to repent.



They are wrong.  Everyone needs to repent.


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## bullethead (Sep 8, 2013)

Well what did you mean? You didn't say everyone you said "Jesus has a message of hope for the gays and trans". Why did you specify the gays and trans? Have you just decided to start preaching and this thread is the first of many where you will continually preach Matthew 4:17 or are you saying the gays and trans are doing something wrong and need to repent? If so, what are they specifically doing wrong?


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 9, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I saw this and thought it covers the issue well.



There are plenty of things regarding the religion YOU follow that were not consistent over the past 2000 years.. Do you think that suicide is an unforgivable sin?


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## centerpin fan (Sep 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Well what did you mean? You didn't say everyone you said "Jesus has a message of hope for the gays and trans". Why did you specify the gays and trans?



Because that's what the article is about:




> Seemingly inspired by an episode of Savage's own TakePart TV show, American Savage, the project invites Christians who support LGBT rights to film themselves offering messages of hope to the gay and trans community.
> 
> The content of the videos drives home the tenets of pro-LGBT Christians, who firmly believe that there's nothing inherently sinful or anti-biblical about being gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 9, 2013)

So tell us when your god said that homosexuality is a sin... and please give us at least 5 translations so we can make sure that it didn't change at some point to fit the opinion of the time. Let's see the original translation.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 9, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> So tell us when your god said that homosexuality is a sin... and please give us at least 5 translations so we can make sure that it didn't change at some point to fit the opinion of the time. Let's see the original translation.



Haven't we done this before ... ad nauseum?


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## bullethead (Sep 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Because that's what the article is about:



And if they believe there is no sin Jesus can give him whatever message he wants to whenever he wants to. Jesus, if he is who his believers say he is, doesn't need the "help" from his followers to pass judgement.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> And if they believe there is no sin Jesus can give him whatever message he wants to whenever he wants to. Jesus, if he is who his believers say he is, doesn't need the "help" from his followers to pass judgement.



He commanded us to:

_... go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you._


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## bullethead (Sep 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> He commanded us to:
> 
> _... go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you._



Yeah,yeah,yeah.......
Cherry pick the "commands" that fit the agenda and excuse the commands that make your God look like a psychopathic monster.
PS: I had No Idea that you were in Galilee a couple thousand years ago.
Jesus was talking to You......yep, uh-huh.
Maybe, and this is just a suggestion, start at Matthew 28:16 if you want to get the FULL context of WHO Jesus was talking to.


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## pnome (Sep 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Jesus has a message of hope for the gay and trans community:
> 
> “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” - Matt. 4:17



Jesus has a message for the Christian community too:
Matthew 7:1
Judge not, that ye be not judged.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 9, 2013)

pnome said:


> Matthew 7:1
> Judge not, that ye be not judged.



The skeptic's love of this verse is matched only by his disdain for all the others.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> PS: I had No Idea that you were in Galilee a couple thousand years ago.
> Jesus was talking to You......yep, uh-huh.
> Maybe, and this is just a suggestion, start at Matthew 28:16 if you want to get the FULL context of WHO Jesus was talking to.



He was indirectly talking to all who followed the apostles -- including me:

"And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others." -- 2 Timothy 2:2


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## bullethead (Sep 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> He was indirectly talking to all who followed the apostles -- including me:
> 
> "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others." -- 2 Timothy 2:2



Ohhhhhh....INdirectly talking to everyone, not just the 11 that are specifically mentioned.......
Cue the next verse in another book by another author that we can tie in Jesus was talking to you too.......Check!
Now, Flash us your Reliable & Qualified rewards card and impress us even further.


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## ted_BSR (Sep 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Ohhhhhh....INdirectly talking to everyone, not just the 11 that are specifically mentioned.......
> Cue the next verse in another book by another author that we can tie in Jesus was talking to you too.......Check!
> Now, Flash us your Reliable & Qualified rewards card and impress us even further.



Why do you make fun of people who are quoting scripture to you, when you are asking them to quote scripture to you?


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## bullethead (Sep 9, 2013)

ted_BSR said:


> Why do you make fun of people who are quoting scripture to you, when you are asking them to quote scripture to you?



Ted, pleeeeze.
CPF usually has some good stuff in here but he has been reaching since his first scripture quote. He was trying to use scripture as his own thoughts. It didn't work so then he used a snippet of more scripture that did not work either. It is what it is....no fun being made of anyone. You have mistaken being held accountable for being made fun of......not the same Ted.

Jesus never had a message for the gays and trans. CPF did.
Jesus (in Matthew 28:19) was not talking to everyone, he was talking to the Eleven Disciples as written in Matthew 28:16. It is yet another case of picking and choosing verses and meaning to suit. Hopping from book to book, verse to verse, is only trying to distance the conversation from the initial claim.


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## ted_BSR (Sep 10, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Ted, pleeeeze.
> CPF usually has some good stuff in here but he has been reaching since his first scripture quote. He was trying to use scripture as his own thoughts. It didn't work so then he used a snippet of more scripture that did not work either. It is what it is....no fun being made of anyone. You have mistaken being held accountable for being made fun of......not the same Ted.
> 
> Jesus never had a message for the gays and trans. CPF did.
> Jesus (in Matthew 28:19) was not talking to everyone, he was talking to the Eleven Disciples as written in Matthew 28:16. It is yet another case of picking and choosing verses and meaning to suit. Hopping from book to book, verse to verse, is only trying to distance the conversation from the initial claim.



Yeah, No. You were making fun of him because he was using the book he believes to be the truth to defend his beliefs. I don't understand what you mean by, "didn't work". What does that mean? Does it mean that it didn't work according to your beliefs and rules of engagement?

Go figure.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 10, 2013)

Bullet it sounds to me that you are implying that the Homosexuals are correct when they say that there is nothing sinful in their actions.  Is that correct?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 10, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Ted, pleeeeze.
> CPF usually has some good stuff in here but he has been reaching since his first scripture quote. He was trying to use scripture as his own thoughts. It didn't work so then he used a snippet of more scripture that did not work either. It is what it is....no fun being made of anyone. You have mistaken being held accountable for being made fun of......not the same Ted.
> 
> Jesus never had a message for the gays and trans. CPF did.
> Jesus (in Matthew 28:19) was not talking to everyone, he was talking to the Eleven Disciples as written in Matthew 28:16. It is yet another case of picking and choosing verses and meaning to suit. Hopping from book to book, verse to verse, is only trying to distance the conversation from the initial claim.


And every president since the TV was invented wasn't speaking to us during his address, he was speaking to a camera......No No:


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## 660griz (Sep 10, 2013)




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## bullethead (Sep 10, 2013)

ted_BSR said:


> Yeah, No. You were making fun of him because he was using the book he believes to be the truth to defend his beliefs. I don't understand what you mean by, "didn't work". What does that mean? Does it mean that it didn't work according to your beliefs and rules of engagement?
> 
> Go figure.



It means CPF tried to use scripture to convey his own thoughts on gays and trans.


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## bullethead (Sep 10, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Bullet it sounds to me that you are implying that the Homosexuals are correct when they say that there is nothing sinful in their actions.  Is that correct?



What actions? Being gay?
I am not on the sin bandwagon so I do not think much of anything is a sinful.
Having sex with another man is definitely not for me but I really do not care what two willing people do behind closed doors. As far a "sin" is concerned, enough of that goes on between a man and a woman behind closed doors. There are some freaky-deaky people behind closed doors. I can't make a blanket statement to cover them all.


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## bullethead (Sep 10, 2013)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> And every president since the TV was invented wasn't speaking to us during his address, he was speaking to a camera......No No:



Swing and miss Miggy.
The verse in Matthew written by an anonymous author telling of a meeting between Jesus and eleven disciples and the words spoken during that meeting is absolutely NOT the same as the President getting on TV and addressing everyone.
Now if a reporter sat in on a meeting with the President and he wrote down what was said to eleven cabinet members behind closed doors....THAT would be the same. And the meeting would have been FOR the eleven cabinet members. If he tells them to fly to Syria and negotiate a solution to the crisis going on it certailny does not mean that everyone in the USA should hop on the next flight and do the same thing.

In your world you would have us believe that a personal secretary followed Jesus around and wrote down everything he said. Not true. You would have us believe that Matthew the disciple wrote down the verses....Not true. There is no personal relationship in those writings. Matthew doesn't say Jesus gathered us together, it says he gathered the eleven disciples together. And there was no secretary to jot down the minutes of the meeting. It was a meeting between Jesus and eleven others same as it would be with the President having a meeting in a room with eleven others. Suddenly after 60 years someone decides to write a story about it and now Jesus and the Prez were talking to the entire world.......

Sorry Miguel. Not the same at all.


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## bullethead (Sep 10, 2013)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> And every president since the TV was invented wasn't speaking to us during his address, he was speaking to a camera......No No:



16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

1. Does not sound to me like Matthew the disciple wrote this. Lots of them and they not a single we or us.
2. Clearly written by someone who was not even there and certainly not broadcast on national television.
3. In your world, if the Prez decided to attack Syria and on National TV he orders his Military to do so, is that an order for all US Citizens to invade Syria?
4. I have seen enough Presidential televised broadcasts to know that most of what is said in those broadcasts are lies and snow jobs, so at least part of your comparison is right.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 10, 2013)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> And every president since the TV was invented wasn't speaking to us during his address, he was speaking to a camera......No No:



Good point.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 10, 2013)

bullethead said:


> What actions? Being gay?
> I am not on the sin bandwagon so I do not think much of anything is a sinful.
> Having sex with another man is definitely not for me but I really do not care what two willing people do behind closed doors. As far a "sin" is concerned, enough of that goes on between a man and a woman behind closed doors. There are some freaky-deaky people behind closed doors. I can't make a blanket statement to cover them all.




My bad.  Better question.  Do you agree with the homosexuals that the New Testament doesn't condemn homosexuality as sin or that Jesus didn't condemn it as sin?


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 10, 2013)

pnome said:


> That is CORRECT!!!!



May I ask how you arrive at this conclusion?


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## centerpin fan (Sep 10, 2013)

bullethead said:


> It means CPF tried to use scripture to convey his own thoughts on gays and trans.



Oh, c'mon.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 10, 2013)

I've yet to see any ch and v in this thread that shows that it is a sin....


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## centerpin fan (Sep 10, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I've yet to see any ch and v in this thread that shows that it is a sin....




Maybe it's because:




centerpin fan said:


> Haven't we done this before ... ad nauseum?


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## 660griz (Sep 10, 2013)

Maybe it is because the bible is fuzzy on the subject. Anti-Gay and Pro-Gay verse translations can be found. Once again, gay folks can cherry pick their parts, anti-gay folks can cherry pick their parts. Win-win.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> Maybe it is because the bible is fuzzy on the subject.



It's not "fuzzy".


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## centerpin fan (Sep 10, 2013)

bullethead said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/why-christians-want-know-theyre-not-195732216.html
> 
> 
> Earlier this summer, Pat Robertson publicly lamented that Facebook lacked a "Vomit" button, which he would gladly click to show his displeasure with pictures of gay couples displayed on the social media site.
> ...



I watched a bunch of the videos.

SMH.


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## 660griz (Sep 10, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> It's not "fuzzy".



Sure it is. Well, to folks that read it and try to understand it. 
To others validating their own agenda, I am sure it is rock solid. 

Jesus said:
"That is something which not everyone can accept, but only those for whom God has appointed it. For while some are incapable of marriage because they were born so, or made so by men, there are others who have themselves renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. Let those accept it who can." 

PRO-GAY
This shows that Jesus is more concerned with people looking after their own relationship with God, than with enforcement of rules. The reference to being "born so" indicates that heterosexual marriage is fine for those who are heterosexual, but it's OK to be different. Again and again Jesus reaches out to those on the margins of society, like prostitutes and tax collectors, to include them.  
ANTI-GAY
Jesus here is actually talking about people who were born incapable of having children, or people who were castrated - not about gays. He is actually saying that marriage and chastity are both within God's purpose. Jesus does appeal to the sinners, but once he has called them, he tells them to go and sin no more.  


"I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; dear and delightful you were to me; your love for me was wonderful, surpassing the love of women." 


PRO-GAY
A pro-gay position might be that this is a clear indication that King David had a gay relationship, and to pretend otherwise is naive.   
ANTI-GAY
An anti-gay opinion might be that the friendship between the two men was exactly that - a very close and loyal allegiance. 

"You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; that is an abomination." 


ANTI-GAY
An anti-gay position would be that this line is unambiguous. It is also repeated elsewhere in the book. The speaker of the words is God, so this is an explicit indication that homosexuality is wrong in God's eyes. It was one of the sins that justified God in giving the land of Canaan to the Israelites  
PRO-GAY
A pro-gay argument might say that other verses in the same book forbid a wide range of sexual activities, including having sex with a woman who is having her period. This is an indication that the passage embodies specific cultural values rather than God's law.  
There is some debate about how relevant rules in the Old Testament are to Christians. Some would say they are binding, since Jesus said he did not come to abolish the old laws. Others would say that Jesus set Christians free from the old laws, highlighting instead that people should love God and their neighbour.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> Sure it is. Well, to folks that read it and try to understand it.
> To others validating their own agenda, I am sure it is rock solid.
> 
> Jesus said:
> ...




You'd save me some time if you just told me where you C&P this from.


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## 660griz (Sep 10, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> You'd save me some time if you just told me where you C&P this from.



Here I thought C&P would save you some time. Well, at least I got a fabulous response and a continuation of the discussion.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> Here I thought C&P would save you some time. Well, at least I got a fabulous response and a continuation of the discussion.



A quick Google search turns up several mentions of this.  (#2 on the list is from realgaymen.com.  Needless to say, I'm not clicking on that one.)

There are no "pro gay" Bible passages.  The "pro gay" comments above and the videos at the link are just people trying to muddy the waters to further their agenda.


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## pnome (Sep 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> Here I thought C&P would save you some time. Well, at least I got a *fabulous* response and a continuation of the discussion.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 10, 2013)

pnome said:


> All by myself.
> 
> I take it you think it is sinful, right?  Tell me how you arrived at that conclusion?



Easy.  It breaks both God's law and the law of nature.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 10, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I've yet to see any ch and v in this thread that shows that it is a sin....



Do you really want to go there, because I can assure you they are many.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> Maybe it is because the bible is fuzzy on the subject. Anti-Gay and Pro-Gay verse translations can be found. Once again, gay folks can cherry pick their parts, anti-gay folks can cherry pick their parts. Win-win.



Trust me Brother.  The Bible IS NOT fuzzy on homosexuality.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 10, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> There are no "pro gay" Bible passages.  The "pro gay" comments above and the videos at the link are just people trying to muddy the waters to further their agenda.




Could not agree more.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 10, 2013)

pnome said:


> Unless they start going faster than the speed of light, or start falling up, or something like that, there is no natural law being broken.



Really, show me an animal that procreates thru homosexual acts.  Evolutionary theory doesn't even support it.



pnome said:


> As for your "God's law" there is no such thing.



I would beg to differ.  There's this book called the Bible.  It's the most popular book in the history of mankind.  You may have heard of it.  It contains God's laws for mankind.  Those same laws that the homosexuals are claiming don't pertain to them.  So you see even the homosexuals acknowledge these laws exist, the argument is over their meaning, so I think your view is less than accurate to put it mildly.


----------



## 660griz (Sep 10, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Trust me Brother.  The Bible IS NOT fuzzy on homosexuality.



Tell them. I posted a link to save CPF time. 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-susan-russell/faqs-about-god-jesus-the-bible-and-gay-people_b_3386922.html


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 10, 2013)

pnome said:


> Tell me, where in your magic book does it say homosexuality is against "God's law"?



Side note:  the people in the videos at the NALT website believe in the "magic book".  They just "cherry pick" (660griz's favorite term) verses to exclude the one's that tell them to "go and sin no more".


----------



## pnome (Sep 10, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Side note:  the people in the videos at the NALT website believe in the "magic book".  They just "cherry pick" (660griz's favorite term) verses to exclude the one's that tell them to "go and sin no more".



Don't get me wrong.  I don't think homosexuals should be Christians.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> I posted a link to save CPF time.



Fabulous!


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> Tell them. I posted a link to save CPF time.
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-susan-russell/faqs-about-god-jesus-the-bible-and-gay-people_b_3386922.html



She's a lesbian.  What do you expect her to say?


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 10, 2013)

pnome said:


> Don't get me wrong.  I don't think homosexuals should be Christians.



OK, I'll roll the dice.  Why not?


----------



## 660griz (Sep 10, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> There are no "pro gay" Bible passages.


Whatever makes you feel better...or falls in line with your thinking.  


> The "pro gay" comments above and the videos at the link are just people trying to muddy the waters to further their agenda.



Yea. Seems everyone's agenda is covered in the bible. pro-gay, anti=gay, pro-slavery, anti-slavery, pro-adultery, anti-adultery, pro-murder, anti-murder. A one stop shop.


----------



## 660griz (Sep 10, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> OK, I'll roll the dice.  Why not?



Because two wrongs don't make a right.


----------



## 660griz (Sep 10, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> She's a lesbian.  What do you expect her to say?




WHAT! AND a priest?  She has an agenda too! I just can't believe it. 
I just don't know what to say. Truly shocking someone could read the same DAYUM book and get such dramatic differences.

I guess the good news is, repent on Sundays and it doesn't really matter what atrocities you commit the rest of the week.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> Whatever makes you feel better...or falls in line with your thinking.



Feel free to post as many pro-gay passages as you can.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 10, 2013)

pnome said:


> I don't think ANYONE should.



Well, at least you're consistent.


----------



## 660griz (Sep 10, 2013)

Another good read. (w/link) You will have to look on your list of known gays again. I didn't look him up. 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/guest-voices/post/on-homosexuality-many-christians-get-the-bible-wrong/2013/02/13/2443d062-761f-11e2-aa12-e6cf1d31106b_blog.html


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> WHAT! AND a priest?  She has an agenda too! I just can't believe it.
> I just don't know what to say. Truly shocking someone could read the same DAYUM book and get such dramatic differences.
> 
> I guess the good news is, repent on Sundays and it doesn't really matter what atrocities you commit the rest of the week.



She is not repentant.


----------



## 660griz (Sep 10, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Feel free to post as many pro-gay passages as you can.



Why? I have posted enough for folks to see it is fuzzy. You aint changing your mind so exactly what would be the point?


----------



## 660griz (Sep 10, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> She is not repentant.



You really know a lot about her. Does she post her silent prayers too?


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> Another good read. (w/link) You will have to look on your list of known gays again. I didn't look him up.



He's married -- to a woman!


----------



## 660griz (Sep 10, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> He's married -- to a woman!



The chipmunk is awesome!


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> Why? I have posted enough for folks to see it is fuzzy. You aint changing your mind so exactly what would be the point?



Like I said.  Not fuzzy.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV).

Lev 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

1 Tim 1:9-10 "realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers"

Romans 1:18

“18 For God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, 19 since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. 20 for his invisible “attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse. 21 For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man, birds, four-footed animals, and reptiles.
24 Therefore God delivered them over in the cravings of their hearts to sexual impurity, so that their bodies were degraded among themselves. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served something created instead of the Creator, who is praised forever. 

“26 This is why God delivered them over to degrading passions. For even their females exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 The males in the same way also left natural relations with females and were inflamed in their lust for one another. Males committed shameless acts with males and received in their own persons the appropriate penalty of their error.
28 And because they did not think it worthwhile to acknowledge God, God delivered them over to a worthless mind to do what is morally wrong. 29 They are filled with all unrighteousness, evil, greed, and wickedness. They are full of envy, murder, quarrels, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, arrogant, proud, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, and “unmerciful. 32 Although they know full well God’s just sentence — that those who practice such things deserve to die — they not only do them, but even applaud others who practice them.

Is this enough or need I go on.


----------



## pnome (Sep 10, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Like I said.  Not fuzzy.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV).
> 
> ...



No, you're good.   Though, that first one could spark a whole new debate about faith based vs works based salvation.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 10, 2013)

Not really... You can be any one of those things your whole life and call yourself whatever you want... as long as you REALLY repent just before the end.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 10, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Not really... You can be any one of those things your whole life and call yourself whatever you want... as long as you REALLY repent just before the end.



Only problem with that is no one really knows when "the end" is.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 10, 2013)

It's all a gamble.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 10, 2013)

For me this whole gay subject is just further proof of man made nonsense. Only man posseses the fear and the "I'm good your bad" thought process that leads to this. And if a God does, he certainly isn't worthy of being worshipped.
And if this is true the gay folks are going to have the last laugh-


> and liars and perjurers


----------



## bullethead (Sep 10, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Easy.  It breaks both God's law and the law of nature.



SFD did not do his homework again.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 10, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> She's a lesbian.  What do you expect her to say?



She is a Lesbian Christian Reverend what she says is no different than whatever bias you have on your Heterosexual Christian Follower side.

The both of you cherry picking to benefit your "side".


----------



## bullethead (Sep 10, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> For me this whole gay subject is just further proof of man made nonsense. Only man posseses the fear and the "I'm good your bad" thought process that leads to this. And if a God does, he certainly isn't worthy of being worshipped.
> And if this is true the gay folks are going to have the last laugh-



God made people Gay and now his "straight" followers don't like it.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 10, 2013)

bullethead said:


> She is a Lesbian Christian Reverend ...



... which is why her church is dying.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 10, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> ... which is why her church is dying.



I love it CPF. I know you have done the studies and have crunched the numbers. Your in depth research in these matters is what separates you from the crowd that just barks out a personal opinion.  All I need now is you to chuck out a chapter and verse from J-izzy that in the vaguest of round about ways eludes to Lesbian Reverend's Churches will fail and it will be one of my best days ever.
We know....We know......YOUR church is WAYYYYY better.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 10, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I love it CPF. I know you have done the studies and have crunched the numbers.



No, but others have:


http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/episcopal-church-reports-lowest-membership-in-70-years/

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/dojustice/j325.html

http://www.christianpost.com/news/episcopalian-church-membership-dips-below-2-million-59615/

http://www.christianpost.com/news/e...y-of-pruning-for-greater-fruitfulness-102573/

http://www.fwepiscopal.org/downloads/ets3_pg2.pdf


----------



## bullethead (Sep 10, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> No, but others have:
> 
> 
> http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/episcopal-church-reports-lowest-membership-in-70-years/
> ...



Christians pointing their fingers at other Christians when in fact:
http://www.churchleaders.com/pastor...ose-look-at-church-attendance-in-america.html

http://themoralcollapseofamerica.blogspot.com/2008/10/church-attendance-in-america-is.html

http://www.familyfacts.org/charts/620/church-attendance-is-declining

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_tren.htm

etc
etc
etc
etc
etc

Her church is losing members because she is Gay....what is your excuse? Why are the rest of the churches attendance declining.......???secretly gay????


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 10, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Her church is losing members because she is Gay....what is your excuse????



That's a huge part of the reason.  The EC and other churches (Lutheran, United Methodist, PCUSA) have all been torn apart by this issue.  




bullethead said:


> Why is the rest of the churches attendance declining.......???



Can't say for sure, but I don't think all churches are declining.  The mainline churches (like the EC) are a big drag on the others, though.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 10, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> That's a huge part of the reason.  The EC and other churches (Lutheran, United Methodist, PCUSA) have all been torn apart by this issue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is it fair to say the  churches with "good" parishioners are thriving while the churches with the "bad" parishioners are on the decline?


----------



## bullethead (Sep 10, 2013)

http://www.lifeway.com/Article/Southern-baptists-decline-in-baptisms-membership-attendance

WHY??


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 10, 2013)

pnome said:


> You really don't understand anything about "evolutionary theory".



This is what I know.  You tell me where I'm wrong.  The goal of evolution it to produce progeny to carry on desirable traits.   Homosexuality can't do that.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 10, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> This is what I know.  You tell me where I'm wrong.  The goal of evolution it to produce progeny to carry on desirable traits.   Homosexuality can't do that.



Nature is strange and sometimes unexplainable. Animals that want to breed with the same sex may be one of natures(evolutions) ways of weeding that species out of existence or maybe just the trait out of existence.

If evolution is not true and random acts of nature are not true then why did God make creatures that are attracted to the same sex?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 10, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Is it fair to say the  churches with "good" parishioners are thriving while the churches with the "bad" parishioners are on the decline?



I would say not.  My church is exploding.  It is one of the fastest growing of its size in the state and it's literally in the middle of nowhere.  What makes it different is that people come as they are and feel welcome.  On Sundays a good many come in in camouflage directly from their deer stands and its perfectly OK.  The pastor preaches the Truth from the Bible.  No concessions to liberal theology are taught and yet attendance has boomed.

As far as Good and Bad parishioners go, I don't know what you mean exactly.  Being a Christian certainly doesn't make you perfect, only better than you were before.  That's a point not very well understood by Christians and Non Christians alike.  I'm certainly no where near perfect.  I have good days and bad just like every one else, but I can look back over years and see a night and day difference.  Others that have known me over that period of time can also.  The evidence of God in people's lives is a change for the better.  Sometimes that change can be overnight, but for most of us it is gradual and only perceptive after many years.  I guess for some maybe it's never apparent to themselves or others.  Does this make them less in some manner than others?  Well it would take an all knowing being to tell us that wouldn't it?  Fortunately we have one, and that's his concern and not mine.  I preach the Gospel every Sunday and do my best to conduct myself in a manner that honors my Savior.  Are there atheist out there whose actions put mine to shame?  I'm sure there are, but that's not who I am being judged against.  I'm being judged against a Holy and perfect God whose Righteousness infinitely exceeds that of all men.  Compared to him I am wretched, but he loved me and all mankind enough to bridged that chasm for me.  All I had to do was get on the bridge.  The least I can do is to help others find the bridge also.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 10, 2013)

I'll ask again:



bullethead said:


> Nature is strange and sometimes unexplainable. Animals that want to breed with the same sex may be one of natures(evolutions) ways of weeding that species out of existence or maybe just the trait out of existence.
> 
> If evolution is not true and random acts of nature are not true then why did God make creatures that are attracted to the same sex?


----------



## bullethead (Sep 10, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I would say not.  My church is exploding.  It is one of the fastest growing of its size in the state and it's literally in the middle of nowhere.  What makes it different is that people come as they are and feel welcome.  On Sundays a good many come in in camouflage directly from their deer stands and its perfectly OK.  The pastor preaches the Truth from the Bible.  No concessions to liberal theology are taught and yet attendance has boomed.
> 
> As far as Good and Bad parishioners go, I don't know what you mean exactly.  Being a Christian certainly doesn't make you perfect, only better than you were before.  That's a point not very well understood by Christians and Non Christians alike.  I'm certainly no where near perfect.  I have good days and bad just like every one else, but I can look back over years and see a night and day difference.  Others that have known me over that period of time can also.  The evidence of God in people's lives is a change for the better.  Sometimes that change can be overnight, but for most of us it is gradual and only perceptive after many years.  I guess for some maybe it's never apparent to themselves or others.  Does this make them less in some manner than others?  Well it would take an all knowing being to tell us that wouldn't it?  Fortunately we have one, and that's his concern and not mine.  I preach the Gospel every Sunday and do my best to conduct myself in a manner that honors my Savior.  Are there atheist out there whose actions put mine to shame?  I'm sure there are, but that's not who I am being judged against.  I'm being judged against a Holy and perfect God whose Righteousness infinitely exceeds that of all men.  Compared to him I am wretched, but he loved me and all mankind enough to bridged that chasm for me.  All I had to do was get on the bridge.  The least I can do is to help others find the bridge also.



How many gays attend?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 11, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Nature is strange and sometimes unexplainable. Animals that want to breed with the same sex may be one of natures(evolutions) ways of weeding that species out of existence or maybe just the trait out of existence.



That's akin to saying the law of gravity sometimes lets rocks fall UP unless of course you are asserting evolution is not a law of nature.



bullethead said:


> If evolution is not true and random acts of nature are not true then why did God make creatures that are attracted to the same sex?



Everyone is predisposed to certain flaws.  Violence, pedophilia, Lying, drug addiction, alcohol addiction, etc.  Only the homosexuals expect society to accept their behavior as normal.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 11, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Is it fair to say the  churches with "good" parishioners are thriving while the churches with the "bad" parishioners are on the decline?



It's fair to say that churches who are championing the gay agenda are declining.  Members are leaving those churches in droves.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 11, 2013)

bullethead said:


> http://www.lifeway.com/Article/Southern-baptists-decline-in-baptisms-membership-attendance
> 
> WHY??



Beats me.


----------



## 660griz (Sep 11, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> The EC and other churches (Lutheran, United Methodist, PCUSA) have all been torn apart by this issue.



How can they be torn apart by an issue that the bible is soooo clear on? SFD? Concede yet?

I am not saying the issue is not clear to some of you. Obviously it is.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 11, 2013)

660griz said:


> How can they be torn apart by an issue that the bible is soooo clear on?



The "gay is OK" crowd does not mind if the church is torn apart.  They have an agenda.  All other priorities are rescinded.


----------



## 660griz (Sep 11, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> The "gay is OK" crowd does not mind if the church is torn apart.  They have an agenda.  All other priorities are rescinded.



And that crowd is 100% gay?


----------



## 660griz (Sep 11, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Lev 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."



I am assuming you do not cherry pick and believe the entire bible. 
Just to be clear, gay=bad, sex slave=good, beating slaves = good, rape=good

Do you know some black American slaves would not allow their children to read the letters from Paul while slave owners used them to calm the slaves? Is the slave thing a context issue? What clever way have you been indoctrined to deal with the parts of the bible no longer socially accepted?
Do you think that perhaps this gay thing is another example of society pulling away from prehistoric teachings like the slavery issue?


> Everyone is predisposed to certain flaws. Violence, pedophilia, Lying, drug addiction, alcohol addiction, etc. Only the homosexuals expect society to accept their behavior as normal.


 Can you really believe the gay folks belong in the same category as pedophiles, violent offenders, drug addiction? If you really believe that, there is truly no hope for you. You drank the entire gallon of Cool-Aid. 

Murder Rape and Pillage   (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
 As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 11, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> ... which is why her church is dying.



How was it ever alive?


----------



## bullethead (Sep 11, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That's akin to saying the law of gravity sometimes lets rocks fall UP unless of course you are asserting evolution is not a law of nature.


It is not akin to that as we know... the law of gravity does not let rocks fall up. But we do know about many oddities of nature.





SemperFiDawg said:


> Everyone is predisposed to certain flaws.  Violence, pedophilia, Lying, drug addiction, alcohol addiction, etc.  Only the homosexuals expect society to accept their behavior as normal.


This answer is not an answer to the question I asked you unless you are telling me God made people predisposed to certain flaws. I wonder how many handicapped, mentally challenged, and deformed from birth defects are members of your parish and are OK with not being accepted as "normal"??


----------



## bullethead (Sep 11, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> The "gay is OK" crowd does not mind if the church is torn apart.  They have an agenda.  All other priorities are rescinded.



Source?.......


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 11, 2013)

bullethead said:


> It is not akin to that as we know... the law of gravity does not let rocks fall up. But we do know about many oddities of nature.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Homosexuality is a behavior, not a physiologic defect such as a birth defect.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 11, 2013)

660griz said:


> I am assuming you do not cherry pick and believe the entire bible.
> Just to be clear, gay=bad, sex slave=good, beating slaves = good, rape=good



I cited scripture to back up my assertion homosexuality is sinful.  I ask that you provide scripture to support your assertions.
Thanks


----------



## bullethead (Sep 11, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Homosexuality is a behavior, not a physiologic defect such as a birth defect.



And now, for our viewing pleasure, I will ask you whether or not that statement is based off of facts or opinion, and I will ask that you back it up either way.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 11, 2013)

How/why would children have that behavior? How/why would other animals display it?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 11, 2013)

660griz said:


> Can you really believe the gay folks belong in the same category as pedophiles, violent offenders, drug addiction? If you really believe that, there is truly no hope for you. You drank the entire gallon of Cool-aid



Yes, they are sinners just like you and me, and in need of salvation.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 11, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> How/why would children have that behavior? How/why would other animals display it?



I don't know that they do.  Please cite one example of any species that is known to engage in homosexual behavior.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 11, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I don't know that they do.  Please cite one example of any species that is known to engage in homosexual behavior.



WARNING:::: You may have to actually click on the links AND actually READ it to get the information you are looking for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=gay-animals-and-evolution

http://www.bukisa.com/articles/88711_strange-animal-behavior-well-known-homosexual-species

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38821650/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/why-its-ok-birds-be-gay/

I can post article after article, but I hope that at this point you get the point.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 11, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yes, they are sinners just like you and me, and in need of salvation.



Not just like you and me. If we both live in sin, why are they outcast and targeted???


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 11, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I don't know that they do.  Please cite one example of any species that is known to engage in homosexual behavior.


I know it's Wiki, but it's a good start. Dolphins were the first to come to my mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 11, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> If we both live in sin, why are they outcast and targeted???



....'cause somebody somewhere misses the point of it all.

Nobody is better than anybody else.  Grace is free to *all*.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 11, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Source?.......



How about _Das Kapital_, for starters?  They're all leftists, liberals, progressives -- whatever you want to call them.  It's the same crowd who believes women can choose to have an abortion but can't choose to own a gun.  It's the same crowd who would take away your bullets and 660griz's pretty rifle.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 11, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I know it's Wiki, but it's a good start. Dolphins were the first to come to my mind.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals



Yikes.... Read that article!!


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 11, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> ....'cause somebody somewhere misses the point of it all.
> 
> Nobody is better than anybody else.  Grace is free to *all*.



Somebody?? TOO many... I would think that YOU would not cast the first stone, but way too many would.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 11, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Not just like you and me. If we both live in sin, why are they outcast and targeted???



They are not as long as they do what is expected of every other Christian.....acknowledge their sin, turn from it as ask Christ to save them.  I would suggest it's the "acknowledging" they are not wanting to do.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 11, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Somebody?? TOO many... I would think that YOU would not cast the first stone, but way too many would.



Where did "they" learn to do that?  Somebody taught them to be hateful.  Somebody forgot that Jesus wasn't near as hateful as many Christians eventually became.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 11, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I know it's Wiki, but it's a good start. Dolphins were the first to come to my mind.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals



To what purpose?  I've seen dogs hump utter dogs, their own puppies, cats, my leg, and chairs.  To what end?  There isn't one.  Just high hormone levels, not reproduction.

Based on dogs behavior should we also accept bestiality and incest and normative?

When I asked for one example I assumed you would infer purpose.  My mistake


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 11, 2013)

So they are targeted from the rest of the sinners? Sinners are sinners, treat them the same. You could just as easily be targeted for not acknowledging your sin with regards to 1 PEter 3:15.. You do that all the time.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 11, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> To what purpose?  I've seen dogs hump utter dogs, their own puppies, cats, my leg, and chairs.  To what end?  There isn't one.  Just high hormone levels, not reproduction.
> 
> Based on dogs behavior should we also accept bestiality and incest and normative?
> 
> When I asked for one example I assumed you would infer purpose.  My mistake



Does there have to be purpose? What's the purpose of humans doing it? There doesn't have to be some grand purpose to make it something other than the depravity of man.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 11, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I would suggest it's the "acknowledging" they are not wanting to do.



This one hits close to home for me, as I have a very close friend who struggles with this issue.  He "acknowledges" his behavior is contradictory to Biblical teachings.  However, everything else, his biological and emotional self, are in a constant battle with his faith.  It's heartbreaking, and a never ending cycle of success and failure. 

It is so easy to say "just quit being gay."  Whats difficult is knowing a person who can't, but still carries his faith.  Imagine living that life, feeling like a failure no matter which road you travel.

Just heartbreaking, man.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 11, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> This one hits close to home for me, as I have a very close friend who struggles with this issue.  He "acknowledges" his behavior is contradictory to Biblical teachings.  However, everything else, his biological and emotional self, are in a constant battle with his faith.  It's heartbreaking, and a never ending cycle of success and failure.
> 
> It is so easy to say "just quit being gay."  Whats difficult is knowing a person who can't, but still carries his faith.  Imagine living that life, feeling like a failure no matter which road you travel.
> 
> Just heartbreaking, man.



Everyone should have that feeling just like he does... according to christianity.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 11, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Sinners are sinners, treat them the same.



From a Christian perspective, nobody should be treated like sinners......we should treat everybody how we would want to be treated.  Admittedly, Christians can be really good at picking which sin is worse than another.

There is much more to discuss, but it is irrelevant in the context of this sub-forum.


----------



## 660griz (Sep 11, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I cited scripture to back up my assertion homosexuality is sinful.  I ask that you provide scripture to support your assertions.
> Thanks



I already have before you did and then I responded to your post. Respond to mine.


----------



## 660griz (Sep 11, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I don't know that they do.  Please cite one example of any species that is known to engage in homosexual behavior.



Chimps for one. There are apparently about 1500 species.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx


----------



## 660griz (Sep 11, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> 660griz's pretty rifle.



Thank you.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 11, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> From a Christian perspective, nobody should be treated like sinners......we should treat everybody how we would want to be treated.  Admittedly, Christians can be really good at picking which sin is worse than another.
> 
> There is much more to discuss, but it is irrelevant in the context of this sub-forum.



Agreed, but that just doesn't happen.. And the discussion of truth aside, that is one of the problems I have with that and most religions.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 11, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> To what purpose?  I've seen dogs hump utter dogs, their own puppies, cats, my leg, and chairs.  To what end?  There isn't one.  Just high hormone levels, not reproduction.
> 
> Based on dogs behavior should we also accept bestiality and incest and normative?
> 
> When I asked for one example I assumed you would infer purpose.  My mistake



A purpose( a few actually) was given in the links I provided. It is quite more than a dog going to town on your shin.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 11, 2013)

I read it in several places that it seems to help solve conflicts... Apparently that only works for animals other than humans.... You make someone mad and then go rub on them... But in general, it's a part of the socialization of animals...


----------



## 660griz (Sep 11, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I read it in several places that it seems to help solve conflicts... Apparently that only works for animals other than humans.... You make someone mad and then go rub on them...



Works with the wife...sometimes.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 11, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> How about _Das Kapital_, for starters?  They're all leftists, liberals, progressives -- whatever you want to call them.  It's the same crowd who believes women can choose to have an abortion but can't choose to own a gun.  It's the same crowd who would take away your bullets and 660griz's pretty rifle.



I am finding reading groups, bands, songs and works by Karl Marx but I have not found anything more specific to what we are talking about here.
Do you have a better link so I can read up on Das Kapital?


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 11, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I am finding reading groups, bands, songs and works by Karl Marx but I have not found anything more specific to what we are talking about here.
> Do you have a better link so I can read up on Das Kapital?



You could just spend a few days reading Daily Kos and Democratic Underground.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 11, 2013)

Interesting... Male homosexuality in Black swans seems pretty regular.. They still need the females to reproduce but they run the female off once the egg is laid and the male pair incubate and protect it.... and those eggs are more likely to hatch, likely because the male pairs can guard the nest more effectively.

Is that an evolutionary benefit to homosexuality???? Or bisexuality at least.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 11, 2013)

660griz said:


> Works with the wife...sometimes.



That it does! Works for ME Sometimes too! But when a man makes me mad, he's going to make it worse by rubbing on me....


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 11, 2013)

660griz said:


> Chimps for one. There are apparently about 1500 species.
> http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx



Wow... Everyone should read this... 

Long ago my parents once told me that humans are the only creatures that had sex for pleasure or fun. I think the conversation was about pornography.. I figured that about masturbation as well. Took both of those pretty confidently.


----------



## 660griz (Sep 11, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> That it does! Works for ME Sometimes too! But when a man makes me mad, he's going to make it worse by rubbing on me....



Well, that's enough right there. I can be happy until the 'touch'.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 11, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Does there have to be purpose? What's the purpose of humans doing it? There doesn't have to be some grand purpose to make it something other than the depravity of man.



I could not agree more.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 11, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> This one hits close to home for me, as I have a very close friend who struggles with this issue.  He "acknowledges" his behavior is contradictory to Biblical teachings.  However, everything else, his biological and emotional self, are in a constant battle with his faith.  It's heartbreaking, and a never ending cycle of success and failure.
> 
> It is so easy to say "just quit being gay."  Whats difficult is knowing a person who can't, but still carries his faith.  Imagine living that life, feeling like a failure no matter which road you travel.
> 
> Just heartbreaking, man.



Same way with alcoholism and drug addiction.  Sin can be very hard to shake free from even with Gods help.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 11, 2013)

660griz said:


> Chimps for one. There are apparently about 1500 species.
> http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx



Again, to what end?


----------



## bullethead (Sep 11, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Again, to what end?



Well they do not have 'free will" so it is not a choice.
They do not get anything from a higher power so it is not from a God.
The 1500 species, including us, are animals and that is what animals do sometimes because they just cannot help it.


----------



## 660griz (Sep 11, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Again, to what end?



You should read the article. I went through all that trouble slaving over a hot copy&paste.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 11, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Well they do not have 'free will" so it is not a choice.
> They do not get anything from a higher power so it is not from a God.
> Thpe 1500 species, including us, are animals and that is what animals do sometimes because they just cannot help it.



I'm often amazed at the lengths atheist will go to to deny the fingerprints of God on their very being.  Your last statement is an example of that.





> The 1500 species, including us, are animals and that is what animals do sometimes because they just cannot help it.



Do you really realize the implications of making such a statement.  It totally denies the presence of self control or morality of any type what so ever and gives an excuse for every single act imaginable no matter how cruel, vulgar or distasteful.

I'm glad you made the statement, because it accurately contrasts the difference between The Judeo-Christian view in which man, made in Gods image, is viewed as having infinite dignity and sanctity, and that of Atheism which degrades man to the most base state of the very lowest form of existence whose actions "they just cannot help".


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 11, 2013)

660griz said:


> You should read the article. I went through all that trouble slaving over a hot copy&paste.



I read it Griz.  My question to you regarding it is this:  if you want to extrapolate homosexual behavior from animals to humans because it is "natural" are you OK with children helping their parents out performing oral sex as the monkeys in the article are ascribed to doing?  Are you down with sex with you brother to strengthen your bonds as the lions are ascribed to do?  If not, then why?  If you subscribe to the notion that if an animal performs an act, then it's morally OK, how do you justify NOT condoning those behaviors among humans, especially since atheist hold that morality is relative to start with.  Noted atheist Peter Singer realizes the logical hypocricy that comes with your views and he chooses not to be a hypocrit and cherry pick his morals, which is exactly why he doesn't condone beastiality, pedophelia nor any other act committed by animals.  He realizes that if we are just another animal then, like Bullet said "some actions just can't be helped".
They are just natural after all.  You can commit any degraded act you can think of and justify it based on the fact that you are after all, just an animal and it can't be helped.  Additionally, who can judge you if morals are relative.  Is this the world you really think should exist?  Can you even begin to imagine the carnage mankind would visit among himself if everyone bought into this worldview.  I can't.   All the murders, genocides, sex crimes,  etc. that have ever been committed would pale in comparison to that which would follow.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 11, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm often amazed at the lengths atheist will go to to deny the fingerprints of God on their very being.  Your last statement is an example of that.
> 
> Do you really realize the implications of making such a statement.  It totally denies the presence of self control or morality of any type what so ever and gives an excuse for every single act imaginable no matter how cruel, vulgar or distasteful.
> 
> I'm glad you made the statement, because it accurately contrasts the difference between The Judeo-Christian view in which man, made in Gods image, is viewed as having infinite dignity and sanctity, and that of Atheism which degrades man to the most base state of the very lowest form of existence whose actions "they just cannot help".



My statement does not deny the presence of self control or morality, it exemplifies them!!! We have them as a result of our own actions.

Your last statement is not backed up by any sort of fact at all. The end result is the same. I just eliminate one more excuse to come to the same conclusion. It is shown Atheists and whoever can and DO have actions that they are in total control of. It is proven every single second of every single day.
You cannot accept it and try to put a spin on it that just does not exist. You absolutely cannot begin to show that anyone who does not believe in your God is any less of a self controlled human being than you are. Do us a favor and stop making ludicrous statements that only make sense in your mind and then try to pass them off as one of ours.
The only finger prints in any of this belong to man.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 11, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I read it Griz.  My question to you regarding it is this:  if you want to extrapolate homosexual behavior from animals to humans because it is "natural" are you OK with children helping their parents out performing oral sex as the monkeys in the article are ascribed to doing?  Are you down with sex with you brother to strengthen your bonds as the lions are ascribed to do?  If not, then why?  If you subscribe to the notion that if an animal performs an act, then it's morally OK, how do you justify NOT condoning those behaviors among humans, especially since atheist hold that morality is relative to start with.  Noted atheist Peter Singer realizes the logical hypocricy that comes with your views and he chooses not to be a hypocrit and cherry pick his morals, which is exactly why he doesn't condone beastiality, pedophelia nor any other act committed by animals.  He realizes that if we are just another animal then, like Bullet said "some actions just can't be helped".
> They are just natural after all.  You can commit any degraded act you can think of and justify it based on the fact that you are after all, just an animal and it can't be helped.  Additionally, who can judge you if morals are relative.  Is this the world you really think should exist?  Can you even begin to imagine the carnage mankind would visit among himself if everyone bought into this worldview.  I can't.   All the murders, genocides, sex crimes,  etc. that have ever been committed would pale in comparison to that which would follow.



I have got news for you SFD, when humans were in their earliest forms murders, genocides, sex crimes,  etc were happening more frequently than they are now despite you thinking that man would have been somehow more closer to God's purest intent for us. Except then, none had the bad names for it when it was going on....it just was.
Humans have gotten educated enough to make decisions of what will and what will not be tolerated, but no matter how hard you try to put words in our mouth about how "WE"  think the entire world should be chaotic and carefree, the facts do not back you up. Even still in 2013 many places and people exist on this planet that do things much differently than we are accustomed to. Things go on in this world that we see has unthinkable but where they take place these things are normal. You cannot fathom such things because they go against everything you need your God to stand for so you try to pretend they do not exist or think that people that do not believe as you do in some made up deity cannot share the same morals and feelings as you do and try to blame us that we condone such actions. You have proof right here on these boards that people who do not believe in a God, or do not believe as you do are just like you in more ways than one. You absolutely cannot accept that we have every single quality that makes us a great human being so you try to paint us in a bad way. It is not working for you. Give it up. Stop the God excuses that have no merit. Stop the assertions based off of your own thoughts with zero effort to check the facts first. Why do you totally disregard the answers you get for the questions you ask? You asked for examples and when given 1500 of them, you change the criteria saying the answers didn't answer what you have now changed the question to. 
Enough is enough already. There is no sense of you participating if you will not accept anything that is proven to you with factual research.....especially when YOU ask for it in the first place.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 12, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I have got news for you SFD, when humans were in their earliest forms murders, genocides, sex crimes,  etc were happening more frequently than they are now despite you thinking that man would have been somehow more closer to God's purest intent for us. Except then, none had the bad names for it when it was going on....it just was.
> Humans have gotten educated enough to make decisions of what will and what will not be tolerated, but no matter how hard you try to put words in our mouth about how "WE"  think the entire world should be chaotic and carefree, the facts do not back you up. Even still in 2013 many places and people exist on this planet that do things much differently than we are accustomed to. Things go on in this world that we see has unthinkable but where they take place these things are normal. You cannot fathom such things because they go against everything you need your God to stand for so you try to pretend they do not exist or think that people that do not believe as you do in some made up deity cannot share the same morals and feelings as you do and try to blame us that we condone such actions. You have proof right here on these boards that people who do not believe in a God, or do not believe as you do are just like you in more ways than one. You absolutely cannot accept that we have every single quality that makes us a great human being so you try to paint us in a bad way. It is not working for you. Give it up. Stop the God excuses that have no merit. Stop the assertions based off of your own thoughts with zero effort to check the facts first. Why do you totally disregard the answers you get for the questions you ask? You asked for examples and when given 1500 of them, you change the criteria saying the answers didn't answer what you have now changed the question to.
> Enough is enough already. There is no sense of you participating if you will not accept anything that is proven to you with factual research.....especially when YOU ask for it in the first place.


Bullet you hit the nail on the head. But I would like to add one more thing for you and the others to consider. Its not that there is no sense in him participating its that there is no sense in US participating, for all the reasons you just iterated. He has proven over and over he has zero interest in learning ANYTHING. He is simply getting off on having us answer questions so he can deny them so he can have us provide more answers so he can deny them so he can ask more questions so we provide more answers....... No more and no less. He doesn't care if we give him facts because he's not interested in facts. Its the same in every one of his threads. I for one am leaving him to his world of dishonesty and ignorance. I hope all of you guys at least consider the same. We are being the people who just cant stop themselves from slowing down and staring at the wreck on the highway.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 12, 2013)

bullethead said:


> My statement does not deny the presence of self control or morality, it exemplifies them!!! We have them as a result of our own actions.
> 
> Your last statement is not backed up by any sort of fact at all. The end result is the same. I just eliminate one more excuse to come to the same conclusion. It is shown Atheists and whoever can and DO have actions that they are in total control of. It is proven every single second of every single day.
> You cannot accept it and try to put a spin on it that just does not exist. You absolutely cannot begin to show that anyone who does not believe in your God is any less of a self controlled human being than you are. Do us a favor and stop making ludicrous statements that only make sense in your mind and then try to pass them off as one of ours.
> The only finger prints in any of this belong to man.



I'm not the one who made the statement


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 12, 2013)

bullethead said:


> My statement does not deny the presence of self control or morality, it exemplifies them!!! We have them as a result of our own actions.


. 

Really.  Animals behaving in base ways exemplifies self control and morality?




bullethead said:


> Your last statement is not backed up by any sort of fact at all. The end result is the same. I just eliminate one more excuse to come to the same conclusion. It is shown Atheists and whoever can and DO have actions that they are in total control of. It is proven every single second of every single day.
> You cannot accept it and try to put a spin on it that just does not exist. You absolutely cannot begin to show that anyone who does not believe in your God is any less of a self controlled human being than you are. Do us a favor and stop making ludicrous statements that only make sense in your mind and then try to pass them off as one of ours.
> The only finger prints in any of this belong to man.




Great line of reasoning.  When man behaves well, it's because he's an animal.  When man behaves savagely it's because he's an animal.  Yeah, That's logical


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 12, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I have got news for you SFD, when humans were in their earliest forms murders, genocides, sex crimes,  etc were happening more frequently than they are now despite you thinking that man would have been somehow more closer to God's purest intent for us. Except then, none had the bad names for it when it was going on....it just was.
> Humans have gotten educated enough to make decisions of what will and what will not be tolerated, but no matter how hard you try to put words in our mouth about how "WE"  think the entire world should be chaotic and carefree, the facts do not back you up. Even still in 2013 many places and people exist on this planet that do things much differently than we are accustomed to. Things go on in this world that we see has unthinkable but where they take place these things are normal. You cannot fathom such things because they go against everything you need your God to stand for so you try to pretend they do not exist or think that people that do not believe as you do in some made up deity cannot share the same morals and feelings as you do and try to blame us that we condone such actions. You have proof right here on these boards that people who do not believe in a God, or do not believe as you do are just like you in more ways than one. You absolutely cannot accept that we have every single quality that makes us a great human being so you try to paint us in a bad way. It is not working for you. Give it up. Stop the God excuses that have no merit. Stop the assertions based off of your own thoughts with zero effort to check the facts first. Why do you totally disregard the answers you get for the questions you ask? You asked for examples and when given 1500 of them, you change the criteria saying the answers didn't answer what you have now changed the question to.
> Enough is enough already. There is no sense of you participating if you will not accept anything that is proven to you with factual research.....especially when YOU ask for it in the first place.



Listen.  I asserted the is no evolutionary basis for homosexuality.  Evolutionary theory holds as its most basic tenet that the species must survive.  Homosexuality is directly contradictory to that thesis.  No examples can be provided to prove otherwise, so what do you guys do?  You totally deny the premise of evolution and attempt to make the case that homosexuality is morally just, because it's natural; citing as evidence animal behavior.  When the fallacies of that are pointed out to you, you cry that I am denying the evidence when in fact none has been presented regarding the original assertion in the first place,  and the lunacy of your assertion has been exposed.

It's not rocket science.  You want to prove evolutionary theory supports homosexuality the present a case wher two same sex animals produce an offspring.  It's that simple.


----------



## 660griz (Sep 12, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Listen.  I asserted the is no evolutionary basis for homosexuality.  Evolutionary theory holds as its most basic tenet that the species must survive.


 Yes. Pretty much.  





> Homosexuality is directly contradictory to that thesis.


 No it is not. Once again. Read the articles as to the reason for homosexual activity in animals. 





> No examples can be provided to prove otherwise,


 Yes they have. Once again....read!  





> You totally deny the premise of evolution and attempt to make the case that homosexuality is morally just, because it's natural;


 This doesn't make any sense. Pretty much all things NATURAL are a product of evolution/adaptation, etc. 





> citing as evidence animal behavior.


 You asked for examples remember.  





> When the fallacies of that are pointed out to you,


 You did not point out fallacies. You stick to one narrow minded view that if they don't produce offspring it can't be part of evolution. YES IT CAN! The reasons are in the articles. Binocular vision is a part of evolution and has nothing to do with reproducing. 





> you cry that I am denying the evidence when in fact none has been presented regarding the original assertion in the first place,  and the lunacy of your assertion has been exposed.


 I don't cry that you are denying the evidence. I don't think you have even looked at the evidence. 



> It's not rocket science.  You want to prove evolutionary theory supports homosexuality the present a case wher two same sex animals produce an offspring.  It's that simple.


 Once again, read the articles. You will see reasons why homosexuality helped the species carry on.


----------



## WaltL1 (Sep 12, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I have got news for you SFD, when humans were in their earliest forms murders, genocides, sex crimes,  etc were happening more frequently than they are now despite you thinking that man would have been somehow more closer to God's purest intent for us. Except then, none had the bad names for it when it was going on....it just was.
> Humans have gotten educated enough to make decisions of what will and what will not be tolerated, but no matter how hard you try to put words in our mouth about how "WE"  think the entire world should be chaotic and carefree, the facts do not back you up. Even still in 2013 many places and people exist on this planet that do things much differently than we are accustomed to. Things go on in this world that we see has unthinkable but where they take place these things are normal. You cannot fathom such things because they go against everything you need your God to stand for so you try to pretend they do not exist or think that people that do not believe as you do in some made up deity cannot share the same morals and feelings as you do and try to blame us that we condone such actions. You have proof right here on these boards that people who do not believe in a God, or do not believe as you do are just like you in more ways than one. You absolutely cannot accept that we have every single quality that makes us a great human being so you try to paint us in a bad way. It is not working for you. Give it up. Stop the God excuses that have no merit. Stop the assertions based off of your own thoughts with zero effort to check the facts first. Why do you totally disregard the answers you get for the questions you ask? You asked for examples and when given 1500 of them, you change the criteria saying the answers didn't answer what you have now changed the question to. Enough is enough already. There is no sense of you participating if you will not accept anything that is proven to you with factual research.....especially when YOU ask for it in the first place.


Its not just the questions that change 


> It occurred to me today that we often attempt to offer evidence of God based on positive concepts. I would like to offer an evidence of God based on the concept of evil. Christianity holds the position that mankind is depraved. There are many verses in the Bible to support this doctrine, one of which is Jeremiah 17:9 which states
> "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can understand it?"





> I'm glad you made the statement, because it accurately contrasts the difference between The Judeo-Christian view in which man, made in Gods image, is viewed as having infinite dignity and sanctity, and that of Atheism which degrades man to the most base state of the very lowest form of existence


And this -


> Christianity holds the position that mankind is depraved


.
Makes this the best joke Ive heard in a while 


> that of Atheism which degrades man to the most base state of the very lowest form of existence


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 12, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Listen.  I asserted the is no evolutionary basis for homosexuality.  Evolutionary theory holds as its most basic tenet that the species must survive.  Homosexuality is directly contradictory to that thesis.  No examples can be provided to prove otherwise, so what do you guys do?  You totally deny the premise of evolution and attempt to make the case that homosexuality is morally just, because it's natural; citing as evidence animal behavior.  When the fallacies of that are pointed out to you, you cry that I am denying the evidence when in fact none has been presented regarding the original assertion in the first place,  and the lunacy of your assertion has been exposed.
> 
> It's not rocket science.  You want to prove evolutionary theory supports homosexuality the present a case wher two same sex animals produce an offspring.  It's that simple.



I gave you one. Black swans....


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 12, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Interesting... Male homosexuality in Black swans seems pretty regular.. They still need the females to reproduce but they run the female off once the egg is laid and the male pair incubate and protect it.... and those eggs are more likely to hatch, likely because the male pairs can guard the nest more effectively.
> 
> Is that an evolutionary benefit to homosexuality???? Or bisexuality at least.



Here it is.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 12, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Its not just the questions that change
> [/COLOR][/COLOR]
> And this -
> .
> Makes this the best joke Ive heard in a while



It will be interesting to see how he responds to the evidence (PROOF) of him doing the things he says we're doing.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 12, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm not the one who made the statement



Did you use someone's statement as your own, or is this yours????


SemperFiDawg said:


> The Judeo-Christian view in which man, made in Gods image, is viewed as having infinite dignity and sanctity, and that of Atheism which degrades man to the most base state of the very lowest form of existence whose actions "they just cannot help".


----------



## bullethead (Sep 12, 2013)

Walt, Triple X and Griz....all excellent and accurate observations and points.
Walt, I am going to take your advice.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Sep 12, 2013)

I say we give him the chance to respond to what was been laid out in front of him this morning... If we get what we expect... ignore...


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 12, 2013)

660griz said:


> Yes. Pretty much.   No it is not. Once again. Read the articles as to the reason for homosexual activity in animals.  Yes they have. Once again....read!   This doesn't make any sense. Pretty much all things NATURAL are a product of evolution/adaptation, etc.  You asked for examples remember.   You did not point out fallacies. You stick to one narrow minded view that if they don't produce offspring it can't be part of evolution. YES IT CAN! The reasons are in the articles. Binocular vision is a part of evolution and has nothing to do with reproducing.  I don't cry that you are denying the evidence. I don't think you have even looked at the evidence.
> 
> Once again, read the articles. You will see reasons why homosexuality helped the species carry on.



I have read them Griz.  In each and every case the authors cite, they invariably give an example of homosexuality then attribute it to some gain that is made.  I get that.  
However it is just that.  Attributing a PERCEIVED gain to an act.  That's is the very best that can be said.  It is not proof by any stretch of the imagination that homosexual behavior among animals produces offspring.  That in itself flies in the face of reason.

Additionally, if you take the very best that can be said regarding the articles;  that homosexual behavior does in fact exist among animals, you cannot extrapolate that concept to mankind on a moral basis basis in that since it is natural, it must also be morally acceptable, without also allowing every other act animals commit as morally acceptable.    Do you see the fallacy of that line of reasoning?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 12, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I gave you one. Black swans....



Dude you are grasping.  No two male black swans have ever produced an egg.  Per wiki, and yes it's that basic
"They steal nests, or form temporary threesomes with females to obtain eggs, driving away the female after she lays the eggs."  Is that the behavior you are suggesting we can morally extrapolate to mankind?


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 12, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Additionally, if you take the very best that can be said regarding the articles;  that homosexual behavior does in fact exist among animals, you cannot extrapolate that concept to mankind on a moral basis basis in that since it is natural, it must also be morally acceptable, without also allowing every other act animals commit as morally acceptable.    Do you see the fallacy of that line of reasoning?



Some of those other things have been acceptable. We've decided that they no longer are. And homosexuality may go that way too. I'm glad my parents didn't expect anything "unusual" from me as a child.... But it's just that, UNUSUAL. If it wasn't unusual, it would be usual, normal and accepted and no one would bat an eye. Again, I feel that those types of things would be morally wrong yes. And I would judge someone or some group if they were ok with it because it didn't match my own morals. I wouldn't say that it's permissible because it's not my usual. I would say that they came to their conclusion in exactly the same we've come to ours.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 12, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Dude you are grasping.  No two male black swans have ever produced an egg.  Per wiki, and yes it's that basic
> "They steal nests, or form temporary threesomes with females to obtain eggs, driving away the female after she lays the eggs."  Is that the behavior you are suggesting we can morally extrapolate to mankind?



That isn't anything with regards to morals. It's an example where homosexuality can benefit species. I'm not going to go get in a homosexual relationship and raise my daughter. It's just an example of what you asked for.



More of the same stuff sfd... You ask for something, get it,  then say it's not what you asked for.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 12, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Its not just the questions that change
> [/COLOR][/COLOR]
> And this -
> .
> Makes this the best joke Ive heard in a while



Infinite dignity and sanctity speak to mans innate worth/value.  

Depravity speaks to his actual nature/tendency


No contradiction at all.  And isn't it wonderful that God can love us despite the disparity between our intended design and our failed potential.  His love bridges that gap for all who ask.


I can see how you got confused though in cutting and pasting from different topics in separate threads.  Maybe you're too focused on trying to prove me wrong to think clearly, or maybe you thought you could simply misrepresent the facts in this juvenile attempt to disparage me, or maybe you just dont understand the concepts being discussed.  Either way, why don't you just stick to simple insults.  At least you're adequate at it.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 12, 2013)

I'm done....


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 12, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Some of those other things have been acceptable. We've decided that they no longer are. And homosexuality may go that way too. I'm glad my parents didn't expect anything "unusual" from me as a child.... But it's just that, UNUSUAL. If it wasn't unusual, it would be usual, normal and accepted and no one would bat an eye. Again, I feel that those types of things would be morally wrong yes. And I would judge someone or some group if they were ok with it because it didn't match my own morals. I wouldn't say that it's permissible because it's not my usual. I would say that they came to their conclusion in exactly the same we've come to ours.



So everything that occurs in the animal kingdom is morally permissible in mankind?


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## WaltL1 (Sep 12, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Infinite dignity and sanctity speak to mans innate worth/value.
> 
> Depravity speaks to his actual nature/tendency
> 
> ...



You have been exposed for what you are.
Bye Bye


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## 660griz (Sep 12, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Dude you are grasping.  No two male black swans have ever produced an egg.


 And you are still on the having babies kick. <sigh>


> Is that the behavior you are suggesting we can morally extrapolate to mankind?



A whole lot better than the Bible gives us. 

The morality may or may not be accepted by mankind. It just depends on the maturity of your belief system.

I have to say, it totally amazes me the amount and level of 'proof' you demand for things that are proven and yet build your entire life and after-life around nothing. 

There are many aspects of the universe that still cannot be explained satisfactorily by science; but ignorance only implies ignorance that may someday be conquered. To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today. (Asimov)


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 12, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> More of the same stuff sfd... You ask for something, get it,  then say it's not what you asked for.



Patently false.



> Really, show me an animal that procreates thru homosexual acts. Evolutionary theory doesn't even support it.



That was my assertion in post 55, to which many provided articles regarding homosexual acts among animals which, you will note, does not address the assertion.  None of them were an example of homosexual procreation.  Yet when this has been repeatedly pointed out, you and others become angry because I don't accept your evidence to an assertion that was never made.  Now because you can neither push me off my point nor provided evidence to refute the point some of you bail on the subject.  Why cannot one person be honest enough to say what is obvious to a 5 year old: that it takes a mommie and a daddy to make a baby and without babies no kind of animals can continue to exist.  I guess it's because your agenda trumps the basic reasoning of even a preschooler.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 12, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> You have been exposed for what you are.
> Bye Bye



As have you Sir


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## 660griz (Sep 12, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That was my assertion in post 55, to which many provided articles regarding homosexual acts among animals which, you will note, does not address the assertion.  None of them were an example of homosexual procreation.  .



That post was answered by pnone:


> You really don't understand anything about "evolutionary theory". You don't even believe it. You're one of those creationists right? Of course no animals actually reproduce via homosexuality. But there are other animals that show homosexual activity.
> 
> There's no "law" here.


 You chose to ignore that and continued with the reproducing thing which is crazy talk.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 12, 2013)

660griz said:


> And you are still on the having babies kick. <sigh>



Yeah but it looks like its about to Peter out from lack of refutable evidence.  Everyone is picking up their toys and going home.



660griz said:


> A whole lot better than the Bible gives us.



Your opinion.  I think I could provide much evidence to the contrary.



660griz said:


> The morality may or may not be accepted by mankind. It just depends on the maturity of your belief system.
> 
> I have to say, it totally amazes me the amount and level of 'proof' you demand for things that are proven and yet build your entire life and after-life around nothing.



I could say the same.



660griz said:


> There are many aspects of the universe that still cannot be explained satisfactorily by science; but ignorance only implies ignorance that may someday be conquered. To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today. (Asimov)



Whereas he/you see a God of the gaps, I see a science of the Gaps.


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## 660griz (Sep 12, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Whereas he/you see a God of the gaps, I see a science of the Gaps.



Well duh. That's what it is for. Think of all the gaps it has filled.


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## 660griz (Sep 12, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I could say the same.



Yes you could. I could say the ocean is made out of gravy too.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 12, 2013)

660griz said:


> That post was answered by pnone:
> You chose to ignore that and continued with the reproducing thing which is crazy talk.



I didn't ignore it.  He actually affirmed my assertion but it was also that post where the thread turned to homosexual activity.
  Here is pomes post.



> You really don't understand anything about "evolutionary theory". You don't even believe it. You're one of those creationists right? Of course no animals actually reproduce via homosexuality. But there are other animals that show homosexual activity.
> 
> There's no "law" here.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 12, 2013)

660griz said:


> Yes you could. I could say the ocean is made out of gravy too.



I'm sure you could make an evolutionary argument for " Ocean Gravy".


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## 660griz (Sep 12, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm sure you could make an evolutionary argument for " Ocean Gravy".



I could. It would make as much sense as the Bible.


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## 660griz (Sep 12, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Whereas he/you see a God of the gaps, I see a science of the Gaps.



Perhaps all the scientist and doctors should take a year off. Just let everyone pray for help. See how that works out for you.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 13, 2013)

660griz said:


> Perhaps all the scientist and doctors should take a year off. Just let everyone pray for help. See how that works out for you.



No man.  I would be out of work.  

I don't see it as religion/science, religion/medicine as an either/or proposition, but rather a both/and proposition.


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