# round ball



## shawn dooley (Jan 12, 2013)

can you shoot round ball out of a CVA OPTIMA PRO.i found a bunch of them at a store the other day.


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## FrontierGander (Jan 12, 2013)

sure, the 1:28 is pretty fast for them but if you keep the charge down low, 50-60 grains pyrodex rs and swab between shots, you will have a very cheap paper plinking load.


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## shawn dooley (Jan 12, 2013)

i was wanting to use them for hunting next season.


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## FrontierGander (Jan 12, 2013)

oh in that case, no its not the best hunting round for a modern inline muzzleloader.

Try the 300gr Powerbelt Platinum or the harvester scorpion PT Gold with smooth black sabot from harvester. www.harvesterbullets.com


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## tv_racin_fan (Jan 13, 2013)

It might work fine you wont know till you give it a try.

Try and see what sort of group you can get with 70 grains and work up if that is good enough for you. IF it doesn't work as you like without an over powder wad, try one, easy enough to make with some card stock.

Generally tho a twist that fast is not supposed to work with a round ball.


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## miles58 (Jan 13, 2013)

I  shot round balls in sabots in my CVA Kodiak Magnum and I had decent accuracy from ~1600 to ~2000 if I remember right.  I never tried them with patches though.

Dave


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 13, 2013)

Round balls and fast-twist barrels aren't the best combination. For a good hunting bullet, try the 350-grain T/C Maxi-hunter. Shoots well in most inlines, and will knock the living stuffing out of a deer. Try it over 90 grains of loose Pyrodex. This is the load a friend of mine shoots in his CVA inline, and he has killed more deer than I can count over the years with it. He's tried all kinds of the "fancy new" stuff, and keeps coming back to this load because it works, and works well.


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## 7Mag Hunter (Jan 13, 2013)

shawn dooley said:


> i was wanting to use them for hunting next season.



Buy them and of you get good accuracy then use them
for hunting next fall....I have killed deer with them for
20+ yrs and most balls blow right thru a deer if hit in the lung/heart area...
Lots of talk this year about certain conicals not exiting
or seemingly poor performance.....Round balls have been
killing deer for 100s of years.....

If you can hit the deer properly it will die, and not know 
the difference if it was a conical or round ball..


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 13, 2013)

7Mag Hunter said:


> Buy them and of you get good accuracy then use them
> for hunting next fall....I have killed deer with them for
> 20+ yrs and most balls blow right thru a deer if hit in the lung/heart area...
> Lots of talk this year about certain conicals not exiting
> ...



I agree completely that there are few things more effective than a chunk of solid lead. I definitely prefer to shoot round balls out of my guns that will shoot them accurately. I have a percussion gun that just will not shoot round balls, but it loves lead conicals, I've probably killed thirty deer with it. I have recovered exactly one bullet from these, the rest were passthroughs. The one that was still in the deer was a strong quartering shot, the bullet entered the neck, went all the way longways through the deer taking out the spine, one shoulder blade, a bunch of ribs, mushed the vitals, and was stuck underneath the skin on the ham. I have never had a failure with a _solid lead conical_, they lay the smackdown on a deer, and have been working well since before the Civil War. The ones that people are having trouble with are the fancy new composite things with copper jackets and plastic parts and such crap attached to them, and people think they must be better because they're new and look fancy.


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## 7Mag Hunter (Jan 13, 2013)

NCHillbilly said:


> I agree completely that there are few things more effective than a chunk of solid lead. I definitely prefer to shoot round balls out of my guns that will shoot them accurately. I have a percussion gun that just will not shoot round balls, but it loves lead conicals, I've probably killed thirty deer with it. I have recovered exactly one bullet from these, the rest were passthroughs. The one that was still in the deer was a strong quartering shot, the bullet entered the neck, went all the way longways through the deer taking out the spine, one shoulder blade, a bunch of ribs, mushed the vitals, and was stuck underneath the skin on the ham. I have never had a failure with a _solid lead conical_, they lay the smackdown on a deer, and have been working well since before the Civil War. The ones that people are having trouble with are the fancy new composite things with copper jackets and plastic parts and such crap attached to them, and people think they must be better because they're new and look fancy.




Good solid common sense.....


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## FrontierGander (Jan 13, 2013)

thats because they are better than round balls, especially when you are hunting big game animals and not some small undersized whitetail.


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## Lorren68 (Jan 13, 2013)

FrontierGander said:


> thats because they are better than round balls, especially when you are hunting big game animals and not some small undersized whitetail.



Strange they seemed to work on buffalo and elephant too, long before the modern projectile was invented.


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## Supercracker (Jan 13, 2013)

Pretty sure that the Eastern Woods Bison was hunted to extinction by guys shooting RBs from smoothbores. 

In fact, the research done during the time period of overlap with roundballs and bullets (mid 19th century by Forsyth I believe)pretty well dismissed the bullet as outright inferior to the RB on very large game. Provided that proper shot placement was achieved. IIRC it had to do with the bullets getting more penetration but not doing as much damage. The bullet not really being able to realize its potential until breechloaders became prevalent and velocities started to become silly. Even then, for a long time afterwards they came with a mold for a RB not a conical. And these were the guys who had to deal with "if I don't drop the critter in it's track it's a virtual certainty I'll be killed".


The only reason sooo much hoopla is made about bullets over RBs is because there's really no way to  improve on a solid sphere of lead. Thus no way to market the idea that bullet XYZ is sooooo superior to bullet ABC that you MUST have it above all others.


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## FrontierGander (Jan 13, 2013)

no im pretty sure the rest of the 8000 buffalo were shot to pieces by the 4570-4590-45120 and the bigger 50cal shapes.

The mountain men struggled to kill buffalo, dont believe in those stories where they are shooting them from 200-300 yards because guaranteed, they'd put  a whole lot more into a buffalo.

Heres the question...Have YOU, shot a buffalo with a smooth bore and patched ball?

PRB's in 45 and 50cal may do just fine on deer, but until you shoot an elk or buffalo with a 175gr round ball and report back on it, i dont care what book you read, says.

A conical or a saboted projectile is a much better killer at longer ranges.

Who used a 50cal patched ball on elephant? I thought they were those huge 4 gauge deals?


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## Lorren68 (Jan 13, 2013)

FrontierGander said:


> no im pretty sure the rest of the 8000 buffalo were shot to pieces by the 4570-4590-45120 and the bigger 50cal shapes.
> 
> The mountain men struggled to kill buffalo, dont believe in those stories where they are shooting them from 200-300 yards because guaranteed, they'd put  a whole lot more into a buffalo.
> 
> ...



Who said they use a .50cal?   They used roundball in a caliber specific to the animal they were shooting.  As far as killing buffalo with 45/70 and not beliving history, that is your opinion.  I choose to belive history, not someone trying to promote his sponsors product as you are doing.


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## FrontierGander (Jan 13, 2013)

the topic was 50cal. Obviously a bigger caliber is always better when shooting large animals. That's why i have a 58 when it comes to patched balls.

Conicals carry a lot more behind them and plow through. Now of course there are bullets out there that may penetrate less, thats the hunters job of doing his homework and then picking the bullet thats going to do the job.

But if you can share your story of killing elk with patched round ball in .490-.495 i gladly would like to hear it, along with how close the shot was. I know the traditionalists ALWAYS love to say " I take pride in being able to move in close" but that is hardly ever the case when you are hunting in the mountains and are winded as you come over a mountain and run into an elk or two.

Promote what products? The only promoting i see is the promoting of shooting animals with under sized lead balls.

I took an elk with a 54cal sidelock, 80gr RS and a .530 ball, she went 60 yards after the shot, no exit wound, never recovered the ball, most likely it just tumbled around once it got into the lungs and such. 140 yard shot. Pushing it to the max? Probably, the ball should have had more powder behind it but like i said, that "Get closer" stuff is hardly ever possible.


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## Supercracker (Jan 14, 2013)

FrontierGander said:


> no im pretty sure the rest of the 8000 buffalo were shot to pieces by the 4570-4590-45120 and the bigger 50cal shapes.



You're thinking of the Plains Bison. The Eastern bison I'm talking about were long gone way before the time of the metallic cartridge, never mind the 45/70 (Eastern Elk were too for that matter). Since they were market hunted to near extinction 50 years before the invention of the conical bullet I think it's pretty safe to assume that conical bullets were not used. They were also well on their way to being hunted out before rifled guns were common, so that's a safe assumption as well. 

I've never shot an elk with a .50 RB, because I don't hunt elk. But there are plenty who have and do. Naturally the larger calibers are a better choice, but that's not what you said. You said "round balls". I maintain that an appropriately sized round ball is perfectly adequate for anything walking, and a .490 RB, properly placed, with a proper charge behind it will kill anything on this continent. Even if it's not the wisest choice for some. Bottom line, the larger the animal relative to your rifle the closer you need to get and unless you're hunting ninjas they CAN be gotten close to.   





FrontierGander said:


> The only promoting i see is the promoting of shooting animals with under sized lead balls.



No, what we're seeing is the promotion of the idea that people should substitute technology for bushcraft. But I think we can be forgiven for thinking someone from Colorado, pushing a bullet made in Kentucky, on a forum specifically for hunting in Ga has an agenda or is possibly actually part of a marketing or SEO program. It certainly wouldn't be the first time. 



FrontierGander said:


> that "Get closer" stuff is hardly ever possible.


I'm sure all the guys making 12yd shots with longbows every year will be very disappointed to hear that.


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## Redleaf (Jan 14, 2013)

Overstabilization of a roundball is a complex ballistic issue, but for practical hunting applications (under 100yards) it does not exist.  The problem, more often than not is the depth of rifling and improper patch thickness.  For hunting loads with roundballs in fast twist/shallow groove barrels,  a wad of paper,waspnest, or polyfil will help keep the powder gasses from leaking past the ball.  There was a good reason the old original guns had slow twists, but it was not short range  stabilization.  If you want your roundball gun to perform at 200 and 300yards,  you need the slowest twist that will stabilize the ball at the velocity you plan on shooting, which needs to be a charge that will reliably obturate the ball.  I've shot several fast twist guns with roundballs and powder charges in the 90gr fffg range that were plenty accurate enough for deer hunting out to about 125yds.  After that,  group size comes unglued real fast.  Like 4 or 5 foot groups at 200yds.


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## FrontierGander (Jan 14, 2013)

shooting paper vs an *elk* at 200 yards is a bit of difference dont you think?

The original poster was asking about a .490 ball in a 1:28 inline.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 14, 2013)

I wouldn't shoot at an elk at 200 yards with any type of muzzleloader or projectile thereof. I kill most of my deer with a muzzleloader, and most of them are taken at less than fifty yards, some at ten yards or less. Yes, you can get closer.


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## dawg2 (Jan 14, 2013)

shawn dooley said:


> can you shoot round ball out of a CVA OPTIMA PRO.i found a bunch of them at a store the other day.



I believe you would not be happy with the groups of a ball from a 1:28 barrel when shooting different grains of powder loads.  What you will find is there is a "window" of sweet shooting within a certain load of powder.  Anything outside of that and you start losing accuracy or your group gets larger.  You will also sacrifice velocity to accomplish accuracy.  

Your "accurate" powder charge will generally be much lower than what you would hunt with.  In other words: the ball in a fast twist barrel will be fine for target practice or small game.  Probably not enough velocity for larger game like deer/ elk.

I have a Pennsylvania rifle with a twist of 1:66 that is great for a ball, but not so good with bullets.  The difference with the slower twist (for ball) is that I can vary my load of powder and as a rule, my groups essentially stay unchanged.  Increasing velocity / powder charge has minimal effect on my grouping (not true with a fast twist barrel).  That is also based on the fact that I have the properly matched ball and patch combination.  But the ball/patch combo applies to both slow and fast twist barrels.


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## FrontierGander (Jan 14, 2013)

NCHillbilly said:


> I wouldn't shoot at an elk at 200 yards with any type of muzzleloader or projectile thereof. I kill most of my deer with a muzzleloader, and most of them are taken at less than fifty yards, some at ten yards or less. Yes, you can get closer.



Thats why we have conicals and sabots, to put them elk down at 200 yards. 

I certainly can understand if you are in an area that works in your advantage you may be able to get closer but in other parts of the world, good luck. 

In this picture, i climbed UP and then over this mountain to see if there were any elk on the other side. I actually took a break " Okay... passed out " and got to see the only elk i laid eyes on that season. A mile away.

Get closer? Not always an option.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 14, 2013)

How do people kill thousands of elk every year with bows?  In an area like you are showing, I would be toting my .300 winmag instead of my flintlock.


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## FrontierGander (Jan 14, 2013)

during the rut when they can call them in. More bow hunters go home empty than they do with a kill in their truck.

The picture i showed, i ran into a guy coming down the mountain with a 54cal flintlock, his friend had a 58cal sidelock.

We did take one deer out of there but that was in the easier parts. No elk were dumb enough to get down that low.


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## snook24 (Jan 14, 2013)

When I first started muzzleloader hunting I shot round balls and couldn't figure out why I couldn't shoot it accurately. The twist was to fast and it was all over the place. Glad I figured it out now. I wouldn't do it for hunting purposes.


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## snook24 (Jan 14, 2013)

Oh and the deer I did shoot with it where all at 15 yards or less and the bullet hit a foot from where I aimed and I didn't get pass throughs... They work great in our other older type muzzleloaders but not the newer.


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## dawg2 (Jan 15, 2013)

snook24 said:


> Oh and the deer I did shoot with it where all at 15 yards or less and the bullet hit a foot from where I aimed and I didn't get pass throughs... They work great in our other older type muzzleloaders but not the newer.



They will shoot accurately in fast twist / newer guns.  You just have to match the right powder charge.  Like I said above, you will find the accuracy you want will be at much reduced velocity.  It will be good for target or small game, but not fast enough for deer at any range.


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## snook24 (Jan 15, 2013)

That would make scenes. I tried 80-100 gr of powder but never any less


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## dawg2 (Jan 15, 2013)

snook24 said:


> That would make scenes. I tried 80-100 gr of powder but never any less



Too much


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## snook24 (Jan 15, 2013)

As I found out haha but I was young and going by what dad used in his gun. I've learned a lot from everyone on this site so I'm shooting great now


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## shane256 (Jan 15, 2013)

We've recovered dozens of round balls from deer. They look just like you pounded it mostly flat with a hammer. Rarely recover a sabot, though.


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## Supercracker (Jan 15, 2013)

shane256 said:


> We've recovered dozens of round balls from deer. They look just like you pounded it mostly flat with a hammer. Rarely recover a sabot, though.


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## Nicodemus (Jan 15, 2013)

shane256 said:


> We've recovered dozens of round balls from deer. They look just like you pounded it mostly flat with a hammer. Rarely recover a sabot, though.





Only one I`ve ever recovered from a deer.


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## shane256 (Jan 15, 2013)

Yup. I don't have access to any right now, we keep them at my uncle's house. I'll have to try to get some pictures. Almost all the ones we have are from .45cal. I can't recall recovering any round balls from our .50cal and I know we've used some.


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