# Condemnation



## rjcruiser (Apr 8, 2010)

So...there's been a lot of accusations in a thread that got shut down about the "regulars" of this forum being condemning and judgemental towards those who don't frequent it as often.

My thoughts are this.

Hebrews 4:12

12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 

 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. 

 14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 

 15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 

 16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.



God's Word does condemn sin and can make things uncomfortable.  That is why so many keep it on the bookshelf...so that they don't get that uncomfortable feeling.  It is much easier to justify things when you are not reminded of God's call to personal Holiness.

So remember, if someone judges or condemns you for something you do...compare what they say to scripture (if you believe in scripture, that is).  If the scripture backs up their condemnation, thank them for pointing out your sin.  If scripture does not, rest assured that God and His Word are not judging you.


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## thedeacon (Apr 8, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> So...there's been a lot of accusations in a thread that got shut down about the "regulars" of this forum being condemning and judgemental towards those who don't frequent it as often.
> 
> My thoughts are this.
> 
> ...



I agree with you 100%. Now print out what you have written and take it to the mirror and read it allowed and look into the mirror and see who is looking back at you.


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## secondseason (Apr 8, 2010)

Witnessing by Ray Stedman

I hope that you have gotten the idea that Christ's coming into the world, was not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved. This is a tremendous factor in this matter of witnessing. So many attempts at personal witnessing fail because we start out on a negative note. We're troubled by some worldly attitude or activity on the part of the one we're talking to and we let it get to us and we start dealing with the symptoms instead of the diseases. We try to cure the outward manifestation rather than the inward ailment. Usually we do it by condemning, by saying, "It's wrong to do this and that." I was at Chico this week and someone told me of a man who prided himself in being a personal soul winner. He would talk to almost everyone who came across his path about the Lord. But the friend who was telling me about this said that he found that whenever he talked to a man that this man had talked to, that he found the door already shut to the Gospel because this man had talked to them and the impression he left, whether he meant to or not, was to become a Christian you have to stop drinking, smoking, gambling, going to movies and so on and so on. This is a result of feeling that Christ came into the world to condemn the world. He came not into the world to condemn the world. He knew what it was like when he came. He didn't come in to simply increase it's guilt, he came in to save it. And this is the note that we must begin on. That's why the Four Spiritual Laws that I gave you last time are a good approach to personal witnessing. They don't start on a negative note. They don't start with the problem of sin. They start with a positive affirmation. "God loves you and has a plan for your life." That gets somebody's attention right now. This is what true witnessing is. It's not condemning anybody. That doesn't mean it's overlooking sin. It's not passing it by. It's not waving your hand at it, but it's not starting on that, it's purpose is not to condemn. 


This isn't the whole article but a good start.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 8, 2010)

thedeacon said:


> I agree with you 100%. Now print out what you have written and take it to the mirror and read it allowed and look into the mirror and see who is looking back at you.



Last time I checked...I see me in the mirror....not Snow White or Harry Potter


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## rjcruiser (Apr 8, 2010)

secondseason said:


> Witnessing by Ray Stedman
> 
> I hope that you have gotten the idea that Christ's coming into the world, was not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved. This is a tremendous factor in this matter of witnessing. So many attempts at personal witnessing fail because we start out on a negative note. We're troubled by some worldly attitude or activity on the part of the one we're talking to and we let it get to us and we start dealing with the symptoms instead of the diseases. We try to cure the outward manifestation rather than the inward ailment. Usually we do it by condemning, by saying, "It's wrong to do this and that." I was at Chico this week and someone told me of a man who prided himself in being a personal soul winner. He would talk to almost everyone who came across his path about the Lord. But the friend who was telling me about this said that he found that whenever he talked to a man that this man had talked to, that he found the door already shut to the Gospel because this man had talked to them and the impression he left, whether he meant to or not, was to become a Christian you have to stop drinking, smoking, gambling, going to movies and so on and so on. This is a result of feeling that Christ came into the world to condemn the world. He came not into the world to condemn the world. He knew what it was like when he came. He didn't come in to simply increase it's guilt, he came in to save it. And this is the note that we must begin on. That's why the Four Spiritual Laws that I gave you last time are a good approach to personal witnessing. They don't start on a negative note. They don't start with the problem of sin. They start with a positive affirmation. "God loves you and has a plan for your life." That gets somebody's attention right now. This is what true witnessing is. It's not condemning anybody. That doesn't mean it's overlooking sin. It's not passing it by. It's not waving your hand at it, but it's not starting on that, it's purpose is not to condemn.
> 
> ...




Hmm...I'll share my thoughts on witnessing.

1.  Man's Problem - Sin  Rom 3:23

2.  Sin's Penalty - Death Rom 6:23

3.  God's Solution - Christ Rom 5:8

4. Man's responsibility - Repent & Believe Rom 10:9


If you never know you have a problem (Sin), you'll never ask for a cure.

When I go to the doctor, I don't ask him to tell me I'm fine, I ask him to tell me what's wrong and how to fix it.


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## secondseason (Apr 8, 2010)

I learned a long time ago that you can't teach somebody something that knows everything.  So I will leave you with this thought.

Would you as a sinner rather turn a sinner to the faith or away from the faith?

I don't "have" to debate my beliefs with you or anyone else.  

See you on the other side!


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## PWalls (Apr 8, 2010)

Anything said in here should be backed up by Scripture. If a person disagrees with my point of view and gives me Scripture to illustrate their point of view, my first reaction is to read the Scripture and study it. I could be wrong. The first reaction should not be one of indignation and complaint of condemnation and judgement. If so, then your feelings are worn to lightly on your sleeve and you are in the wrong place. Scripture should be a guide to mold us. We should be willing to listen to Scripture. I use Scripture and opinions in here to grow me personally. On some things, I do not budge because I feel the Lord has given me the discernment He wants me to have.


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## jmar28 (Apr 8, 2010)

I see why now not many people come in here, my God!!!!!!!!!


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## rjcruiser (Apr 8, 2010)

secondseason said:


> I learned a long time ago that you can't teach somebody something that knows everything.  So I will leave you with this thought.
> 
> Would you as a sinner rather turn a sinner to the faith or away from the faith?
> 
> ...



I don't have the power to turn a person to or from God.  Only the Holy Spirit can do that.  All I am commanded to do is point one to Christ thru His Word.  If I point to a god not as described in the Bible, I have deceived and have done a disservice.

No...you don't have to debate your beliefs with anyone....but I'd encourage you to heed PWalls advice below.



PWalls said:


> Anything said in here should be backed up by Scripture. If a person disagrees with my point of view and gives me Scripture to illustrate their point of view, my first reaction is to read the Scripture and study it. I could be wrong. The first reaction should not be one of indignation and complaint of condemnation and judgement. If so, then your feelings are worn to lightly on your sleeve and you are in the wrong place. Scripture should be a guide to mold us. We should be willing to listen to Scripture. I use Scripture and opinions in here to grow me personally. On some things, I do not budge because I feel the Lord has given me the discernment He wants me to have.



Amen.

Scripture has to be the guide to mold us.  Anything else is just the words of man.


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## secondseason (Apr 8, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> I don't have the power to turn a person to or from God.  Only the Holy Spirit can do that.  All I am commanded to do is point one to Christ thru His Word.  If I point to a god not as described in the Bible, I have deceived and have done a disservice.
> 
> No...you don't have to debate your beliefs with anyone....but I'd encourage you to heed PWalls advice below.
> 
> ...



But, you through your words can compel.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 8, 2010)

secondseason said:


> But, you through your words can compel.



My words pale in comparison to the Holy Spirit's power.

God will choose to save those whom He predestined before the foundations of the earth.  God doesn't need my words.....I only must obey His command and commission.


Rom 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;


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## PWalls (Apr 8, 2010)

secondseason said:


> But, you through your words can compel.



That is a good point as well. The method in which we convey Scripture is important as well. I believe in a calm discourse. That is sometimes hard to convey on a faceless internet forum. The Holy Spirit has the job of convicting. All we can do is show the Scripture.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 8, 2010)

jmar28 said:


> I see why now not many people come in here, my God!!!!!!!!!



I find it interesting...that you say you're a pk, a Christian...yet you use God's name in such a vain way.

Maybe that should be the next thread  Do you allow your kids to say Oh My _____.


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## Lowjack (Apr 8, 2010)

If even Christ doesn't condemn us, who are we to condemn anyone ?

Should we allow a non-Christian to point out our faults and thank them ?
I don't think so, because they are only mocking you ,using God's word.
Too much of this is allowed in here.


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## dawg2 (Apr 8, 2010)

oh my....


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## Huntinfool (Apr 8, 2010)

I think that the point that RJ is trying to make is this...

Lots of folks come in here and then recoil when something is said that "offends" them.  Like it or not, the Bible is offensive...especially if it is in contrast with something in your life.  

We often think of the "speck and log" passage when talking about condemnation.  But most only read that passage partial, and so interpret it incorrectly because it gives them a way to say "God says you're not supposed to judge me because you are bad too!".

Here is a quote from Roy Hession in the Calvary Road that I think explains the passage in Matthew beautifully.  Most don't remember the last part of the passage..."then you shall see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."



"In the light of that, it seems clear that the real point of the well-known passage in Matthew 7:3-5 about the beam and the mote is not the forbidding of our trying to remove the fault in the other person, but rather the reverse. It is the injunction that at all costs we should do this service for one another. True, its first emphasis seems to be a condemnation of censoriousness, but when the censoriousness in us is removed, the passage ends by saying, "Then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye." 

According to the New Testament, we are meant to care so much for the other man that we are willing to do all we can to remove from his eye the mote which is marring his vision and hindering his blessing. We are told to "admonish one another" and "exhort one another" and to "wash one another's feet" and "to provoke one another to love and good works." The love of Jesus poured out in us will make us want to help our brother in this way."


The point is that it IS our job as Christians to point out sin in our brothers and sisters.  Hession goes on to talk about the motivation that should go with that, etc which is also very important.

But please....PLEASE don't come in here and tell me "judge not, lest ye be judged."  That plucked verse is simply a cop out, used out of context for those who want to do what they want to do.


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## jmar28 (Apr 8, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> I find it interesting...that you say you're a pk, a Christian...yet you use God's name in such a vain way.
> 
> Maybe that should be the next thread  Do you allow your kids to say Oh My _____.




Well, I didn't say I was perfect did I?


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## rjcruiser (Apr 8, 2010)

jmar28 said:


> Well, I didn't say I was perfect did I?



Nope...and I'm far from it as well.  Just find it amazing how it seems folks who call themselves Christians view their sin as something that just isn't that serious.

oh..btw...just to clear up what some might think of me and my "legalistic ways."

I did see the first of the "New Moon" series movies and will probably end up seeing the sequal.  I thought the first one was very entertaining.  I did think it glorified death a bit...and it is because of that that one should be careful allowing young people to watch it.  If my teenager wanted to watch it, I'd probably allow, but watch with and discuss after...ensuring that they understood the fiction and the harm of some of the implied themes throughout.


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## BeenHuntn (Apr 8, 2010)

thedeacon said:


> I agree with you 100%. Now print out what you have written and take it to the mirror and read it allowed and look into the mirror and see who is looking back at you.



hmmm, where have we heard that before?


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## PWalls (Apr 8, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> I think that the point that RJ is trying to make is this...
> 
> Lots of folks come in here and then recoil when something is said that "offends" them.  Like it or not, the Bible is offensive...especially if it is in contrast with something in your life.
> 
> ...



AMEN!!!

I couldn't make that any bolder or bigger because DBBB would get on to me for stealing his thunder.


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## WTM45 (Apr 8, 2010)

PWalls said:


> Anything said in here should be backed up by Scripture.



This is NOT a Christian only forum.

So, those who follow different religious belief systems, or none at all, are not required to follow such a command.

It is not in the rules of the website.

So, when in discussions with the varied opinions and interpretations on this forum, no one here has the right to stand in condemnation of any other poster at all. 
Disagree?  Sure.  But rational discussion means showing respect to other's views even when they are different from your own.


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## jmar28 (Apr 8, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Nope...and I'm far from it as well.  Just find it amazing how it seems folks who call themselves Christians view their sin as something that just isn't that serious..



Well when you hear that your going to hades from street preachers all the time in Atlanta(right outside 5 Points Marta Train Station) and outside of Falcons Games and out side of UGA games,and you come on here and find yourself being told that your view on christianity is pretty much wrong with the Woody's so called "Holy Rollers" who act like they just left a 4 day tent revival, you tend to live life a little more leniently.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 8, 2010)

Then it should, at the very least be backed up by your "religious book".....unless you are athiest or agnostic...in which case, I suppose you just quote yourself as the highest authority?


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## jmar28 (Apr 8, 2010)

meant to put a smily face at the end of my post,


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## Huntinfool (Apr 8, 2010)

jmar28 said:


> Well when you hear that your going to hades from street preachers all the time in Atlanta(right outside 5 Points Marta Train Station) and outside of Falcons Games and out side of UGA games,and you come on here and find yourself being told that your view on christianity is pretty much wrong with the Woody's so called "Holy Rollers" who act like they just left a 4 day tent revival, you tend to live life a little more leniently.



The message is correct from most of those folks.....the delivery and motivation behind it just happens to SUCK!


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## WTM45 (Apr 8, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Then it should, at the very least be backed up by your "religious book".....unless you are athiest or agnostic...in which case, I suppose you just quote yourself as the highest authority?




An opinion does not have to be backed up with anything.
It is just that, a simple individual opinion.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 8, 2010)

Debate....which is the point of this forum does indeed need to be backed up with something other than opinion.


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## PWalls (Apr 8, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> This is NOT a Christian only forum.
> 
> So, those who follow different religious belief systems, or none at all, are not required to follow such a command.
> 
> ...



Let me re-phrase then. A Christian should always yse Scripture to back up their opinion.


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## BeenHuntn (Apr 8, 2010)

jmar28 said:


> your view on christianity is pretty much wrong



hopefully, you do not have 'your own view' of Christianity. if God tells us to not interpret the Bible, to leave that to Him and the Bible... why should you have your own view of something God created? hopefully, "your view" of Christianity lines up exactly with the Word of God, regardless of what any man tells you, whether he is from woodys forum or woodys bbq... if we follow the Bible, it matters not what any man says to us or about us. if we have tweaked what God has given us in the Bible to follow and changed it to make it more palatable to ourselves... we make ourselves to be god and are guilty of idolatry. remember cain and abel.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 8, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> This is NOT a Christian only forum.
> 
> So, those who follow different religious belief systems, or none at all, are not required to follow such a command.
> 
> ...




I agree completely with you WTM.

The problem I see is when people come on here claiming belief in the Bible and Christianity, but then live by standards that they've set for themselves.

For instance, in the thread formerly known as HP, there was a member who said his faith was based on his personal relationship with God, not the errant scribbles of mankind.

When I questioned him on who made up his God, there was no response.  It is obvious, though...he did....he made up his god.

Pnome said it best months ago.

How can one believe in a God of the Bible, yet not believe the Bible to be true?  

It just doesn't work.

So my gripe is this.  I'm fine with you coming on here with your opinion.  I'm fine with you coming on here quoting Ghandi.  But don't call your opinion and Ghandi as Christianity.  Christianity is based on the Bible.  If you don't base your faith on the Bible and what it says, you are not a Christian.


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## WTM45 (Apr 8, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Debate....which is the point of this forum does indeed need to be backed up with something other than opinion.



No, debate does not.  Neither does discussion.
Study?  Well, one might want to supplement their words with supporting words of others especially authorities in the subject.

One can simply argue for anything they believe to be true, and can even argue for things they do NOT believe to be true.
There is no requirement for "widely accepted" evidence, only a requirement for providing sources when quoting.
"Widely accepted" evidence is virtually unobtainable when discussing religious belief systems.  Faith is required.


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## WTM45 (Apr 8, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> I agree completely with you WTM.
> 
> The problem I see is when people come on here claiming belief in the Bible and Christianity, but then live by standards that they've set for themselves.
> 
> ...



I don't have any faith.
I do have beliefs.
Thanks.


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## WTM45 (Apr 8, 2010)

PWalls said:


> Let me re-phrase then. A Christian should always yse Scripture to back up their opinion.



Fair enough.
I simply stand aside and let the "Christians" argue their interpretations of scripture.
It can be rather amusing.


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## jmar28 (Apr 8, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> hopefully, you do not have 'your own view' of Christianity. if God tells us to not interpret the Bible, to leave that to Him and the Bible... why should you have your own view of something God created? hopefully, "your view" of Christianity lines up exactly with the Word of God, regardless of what any man tells you, whether he is from woodys forum or woodys bbq... if we follow the Bible, it matters not what any man says to us or about us. if we have tweaked what God has given us in the Bible to follow and changed it to make it more palatable to ourselves... we make ourselves to be god and are guilty of idolatry. remember cain and abel.




Did he not give us a mind of our own, to think for ourselves, what means something to you may mean totally something different to me. Including Scriptures that people just randomly throw out like tshirts at the braves game


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## rjcruiser (Apr 8, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> I don't have any faith.
> I do have beliefs.
> Thanks.



That "you" was more of a universal you not you as in WTM.

You've never professed to be a Christian...as such, I don't expect you to hold to the guidelines in the handbook of Christianity (aka the Bible).  That is why I have no gripe with you.  Same as Pnome.

My gripe is with others....


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## Huntinfool (Apr 8, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> No, debate does not.  Neither does discussion.
> Study?  Well, one might want to supplement their words with supporting words of others especially authorities in the subject.
> 
> One can simply argue for anything they believe to be true, and can even argue for things they do NOT believe to be true.
> ...



We'll just have to disagree.  One does not typically win debating championships while quoting their opinions.


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## WTM45 (Apr 8, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> You've never professed to be a Christian...



What if I did, at one time of my life?


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## WTM45 (Apr 8, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> We'll just have to disagree.  One does not typically win debating championships while quoting their opinions.



Is the true end goal of being in the SDDS winning?
Being the one who is last standing?

Seems to me it is simply an open forum for expressing one's ideas and opinions about topics of religion.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 8, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> What if I did, at one time of my life?





well...I only go on your last profession

I know you did.  Probably had to to be on that Soccer team and go to that school.  

I think your present stance and beliefs nullify a commitment you made much earlier in life.


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## BeenHuntn (Apr 8, 2010)

jmar28 said:


> Did he not give us a mind of our own, to think for ourselves, what means something to you may mean totally something different to me. Including Scriptures that people just randomly throw out like tshirts at the braves game




Jeremiah 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

the heart of man is wicked. it cannot be trusted. 

Psalm 118:8
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

if we are both Christians, both of our minds should be in total agreement with the Word of God and what the Word says. we are not to formulate our own 'opinion' of the Bible or Christianity. they are what they are. we cant change them, add to them or take away. the Word of God is perfect... all we have to do is follow it. not twist and turn it to fit our likes.


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## WTM45 (Apr 8, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> well...I only go on your last profession
> 
> I know you did.  Probably had to to be on that Soccer team and go to that school.
> 
> I think your present stance and beliefs nullify a commitment you made much earlier in life.



Total divorce!
Freedom.
Enlightenment.
Every day brings new and exciting learning opportunities!
It is liberating to be of an open mind free of oppression and doom!

Found all the answers?  No.  But there is truth out there!


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## Double Barrel BB (Apr 8, 2010)

PWalls said:


> AMEN!!!
> 
> I couldn't make that any bolder or bigger because DBBB would get on to me for stealing his thunder.


 
There is plenty of thunder to go around Brother!!!

*AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Double Barrel BB (Apr 8, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> This is NOT a Christian only forum.
> 
> So, those who follow different religious belief systems, or none at all, are not required to follow such a command.
> 
> ...


 
There really can't be much of a debate if you don't agree with the material that backs up the other posters belief...

DB BB


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## Huntinfool (Apr 8, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Is the true end goal of being in the SDDS winning?
> Being the one who is last standing?
> 
> Seems to me it is simply an open forum for expressing one's ideas and opinions about topics of religion.



No, that's not what I was saying.  You said debate requires nothing more than opinion.  I was saying that opinion never won actual scored debates.


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## WTM45 (Apr 8, 2010)

Double Barrel BB said:


> There really can't be much of a debate if you don't agree with the material that backs up the other posters belief...
> 
> DB BB



Debate exists whenever two opinions differ, regardless of the supporting evidence.
Heck, most can not even come to agreement or acceptance of, or agree in the validity of supporting evidence!


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## Double Barrel BB (Apr 8, 2010)

beenhuntn said:


> jeremiah 17:9
> 9 the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: Who can know it?
> 
> The heart of man is wicked. It cannot be trusted.
> ...


 

*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## WTM45 (Apr 8, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> No, that's not what I was saying.  You said debate requires nothing more than opinion.  I was saying that opinion never won actual scored debates.



Debate really does only require opinions and stances.
Many arguments are "won" or "settled" without supporting evidence.
Many times it ends in a "agree to disagree" stance.

Debates involving religious belief systems are RARELY ever "won" or "settled."  Death may be the only way to arrive at a true answer.


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## Double Barrel BB (Apr 8, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Debate exists whenever two opinions differ, regardless of the supporting evidence.
> Heck, most can not even come to agreement or acceptance of, or agree in the validity of supporting evidence!


 
What I am saying is...  To me it is pointless to debate a biblical argument with someone that doesn't believe in the Bible... If they don't believe in the Bible, then they can't be convinced by the evidence you so them from the Bible... Until the Holy Spirit intervenes... But we can't control when that happens...

I'll admit I have been caught up in here trying to debate with non-believers and most of the time it rolls off their back and life continues...

Now at least when you debate something with another Christian, you both have the same evidence.... just might view it differently..

DB BB


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## christianhunter (Apr 8, 2010)

RJ,I get convicted everytime I read Scripture,because I fall way too short of the mark.I also receive great comfort from Scripture,because it reaffirms who I'am,when others try to persecute me.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 8, 2010)

It hurts more to have a belief pulled than to have a tooth pulled, and no intellectual Novocain is available.

Mostly, on this forum, we deal with opinion rather than Biblical truths.


Romans 14:1 says:  “Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.” 
The Message version goes like this:  “Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do. And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with”. 

We all have to admit that it gets a little crazy here sometimes.  And quoting scripture to someone is not good enough in many cases.


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## Inthegarge (Apr 8, 2010)

I have always viewed debate as an intellectual excerise. But without some evidence you believe supports your position it becomes school child "Your fat" well "so are you". It is then a waste of time. IMHO  I want substance that makes me think about my position and my support for my position. For Christians we have only the Bible and our own personal experience.....RW


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## jmar28 (Apr 8, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> Jeremiah 17:9
> 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
> 
> the heart of man is wicked. it cannot be trusted.
> ...



I respect your opinion and comment,

My thing is then why do we have Baptist, Catholics, Methodist, Pentecostal etc..... why wouldn't we have just  one church.

Not knocking anybody's belief or thinking, it's just that we all have different views, case in point read this thread. I am a PK and I love the Lord just as much as the next guy, but I believe there is more to a christian lifestyle than just witnessing and throwing out random bible verses. 

You say we can't change the bible, but did not king james order the bible to be change from it's original language to English. You mean to tell me that the whole bible was redone and not one single word or phrase was altered around. 

Not trying to  or anything my point is we all have different beliefs, but that doesn't mean that we won't all be celebrating side by side praising the Lord together.

I am going to try and be done with this thread, hopefully you guys can respect my opinion as I have respected your opinion, I ask that of you guys.

Good luck to everybody with Turkey Season, I am trying to call one in and so far I am 0-2, try it again on sat wish me luck.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 8, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> Jeremiah 17:9
> 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
> 
> the heart of man is wicked. it cannot be trusted.
> ...



If it were only true.  1st century Christians couldn't even agree.  But they were commanded to respect each other.


----------



## Ronnie T (Apr 8, 2010)

*Here's an example of the problem with Biblical debate.

Beenhuntn has a particular belief in regards to a biblical subject.  He has scripture to back his beliefs.

RonnieT has a different belief about that same biblical subject.  He too has scripture to back his beliefs.

They stand their ground and debate based on their scripture and their belief in their understanding of the scripture.

But if both Christians are using scripture, obviously both scriptures are correct.  In debate, on this forum, we separate ourselves with our scriptures when we all should know that   "all scriptures belongs together.
We often disagree when actually all we have to do is unite.


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## christianhunter (Apr 8, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> *Here's an example of the problem with Biblical debate.
> 
> Beenhuntn has a particular belief in regards to a biblical subject.  He has scripture to back his beliefs.
> 
> ...



That is way too easy,and makes way too much sense.It would never work on this forum.


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## BeenHuntn (Apr 8, 2010)

jmar28 said:


> I respect your opinion and comment,
> 
> i respect yours as well.
> 
> ...



hope you get your turkey... God has blessed me this year... i've been completely covered up with turkeys every time in the woods... i must look like a hen in heat, because i dont sound like one....


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## BeenHuntn (Apr 8, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> *Here's an example of the problem with Biblical debate.
> 
> Beenhuntn has a particular belief in regards to a biblical subject.  He has scripture to back his beliefs.
> 
> ...



when two Christians do not agree, someone (or both) is in error. God can never be in error and He is not the author of confusion. i believe that all Christians have some amount of error in their Bible beliefs. i know that i do, but i am trying to minimize them... thats probably why i come back here as often as i do. to learn. i've learned a lot. its made me study topics i would not have probably studied and its brought me closer to God... the ultimate benefit.


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## Randy (Apr 8, 2010)

Having read through all this, it is clear to me that most all of you, us, know exactly why this forum is, for the
most part futile.

Those who are Christians realize that our beliefs are based on scripture and those who are not base their beliefs on something else be it feelings, what your mother told you or what ever it may be.  With no common ground the debates for the most part are worthless.

I think the discussion and study part of this thread certainly is useful but the debating part especially between believers and non-believers is useless except for the enjoyment one might get from arguing.


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## dawg2 (Apr 8, 2010)

I think some folks should read Romans Chapter 2  1-11.  Then reconsider how they post and treat people in here IMHO.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 8, 2010)

1Cor 4:3-5    3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

It's important that I feel good about my beliefs, but that isn't always good enough.

The very best that I can do is get all of the humaness out of my thinking as I go seeking.
And then, we all "D I S C U S S".  Not debate.  Debate does not unite.  Discussion unites.
In Bible classes that I teach, we don't debate.  We never debate.  We only discuss, read, and pray.  And we allow each person to leave with their belief.  It creates honesty in our thinking.  It makes "You" responsible for what you accept and what you reject.

People's faith aren't the same.
Some only have faith in the KJV.  So they need to stay with it.
Some believe we should only be worshipping in homes, just like they did in 1st century.  So they need to stay with it.

But neither should impose their opinion on another.


Romans 14
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables
4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand

5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.


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## tell sackett (Apr 9, 2010)

To paraphrase a line from Slim Pickens(with a nod to Mel Brooks): "What in the wide, wide world of sports is going on around here?" I leave the country for a few days and leave ya'll by yourselves, and when I come back ya'll have blown the place up. Locked threads, folks argying, and a general uproar. 



rjcruiser said:


> So...there's been a lot of accusations in a thread that got shut down about the "regulars" of this forum being condemning and judgemental towards those who don't frequent it as often.
> 
> My thoughts are this.
> 
> ...


rj,fwiw, I have to say I agree with you on this. I went back and read the"hp" thread and I didn't see any condemnation(some stepped on toes maybe). Apparently, some folks didn't like the way you used scripture to back up your position in the spiritual debate forum. Hf said a mouthful with his comment about the Bible being offensive, I know it offends me on a pretty regular basis.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 9, 2010)

Yep....just some stepped on toes.  I still don't get it.  But oh well.


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## dawg2 (Apr 9, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Yep....just some stepped on toes.  I still don't get it.  But oh well.



Would you slap a child still imbibing of milk and step on their toes?

This section should one filled with compassion and assistance, not bar brawls.


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## pileit (Apr 11, 2010)

dawg2 said:


> Would you slap a child still imbibing of milk and step on their toes?
> 
> This section should one filled with compassion and assistance, not bar brawls.



Amen.  What good is stepping on toes, when it is the heart where change is made?


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## Huntinfool (Apr 12, 2010)

dawg2 said:


> Would you slap a child still imbibing of milk and step on their toes?
> 
> This section should one filled with compassion and assistance, not bar brawls.



No, but I will correct my children when they need correcting.  Making them feel "happy" all the time will make them feel good in the short term...but will ultimately do great damage to them long term.

Sometimes my two year old feels like the world is ending when I tell her she's done something wrong....but ultimately I've dont the right thing for her long term growth and maturity.

There was no brawling going on in that thread.  Some spoke in opposition of something that others were doing and it made them recoil.  Are we to simply avoid conflict at all costs simply because some are newer believers?


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## Jeffriesw (Apr 12, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> No, but I will correct my children when they need correcting.  Making them feel "happy" all the time will make them feel good in the short term...but will ultimately do great damage to them long term.
> 
> Sometimes my two year old feels like the world is ending when I tell her she's done something wrong....but ultimately I've dont the right thing for her long term growth and maturity.
> 
> There was no brawling going on in that thread.  Some spoke in opposition of something that others were doing and it made them recoil.  Are we to simply avoid conflict at all costs simply because some are newer believers?



Absolutely not, I did not see anybody condeming anyone in the other thread, Condeming something that was blasphemous to God yes, But Not to the person who disagreed.
I thought most everybodies response were proper and appropriate.


Hebrews 4
11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 12, 2010)

dawg2 said:


> Would you slap a child still imbibing of milk and step on their toes?
> 
> This section should one filled with compassion and assistance, not bar brawls.



You are right...compassion and assistance....but the message has to be clear and consistent.

The worst thing that a parent can do is be inconsistent with discipline.  Worst thing a boss can do is be inconsistent with direction at work.  It leaves the child/employee confused and wondering what direction to go.


I must ask...can anyone go through the HP thread and point out where I was at the level of a bar brawl?  I asked several times in the thread for someone to point out where I was being condemning and nothing was posted...then the thread got locked.  I know that in a response to elfii, it may have come across the wrong way, but I cleared that up with him....in the thread and via PM.



Huntinfool said:


> No, but I will correct my children when they need correcting.  Making them feel "happy" all the time will make them feel good in the short term...but will ultimately do great damage to them long term.
> 
> Sometimes my two year old feels like the world is ending when I tell her she's done something wrong....but ultimately I've dont the right thing for her long term growth and maturity.
> 
> There was no brawling going on in that thread.  Some spoke in opposition of something that others were doing and it made them recoil.  Are we to simply avoid conflict at all costs simply because some are newer believers?



Well said.  Also, if one can keep personal pride and emotions in-check, much can be accomplished through conflict.


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## Double Barrel BB (Apr 12, 2010)

dawg2 said:


> Would you slap a child still imbibing of milk and step on their toes?
> 
> This section should one filled with compassion and assistance, not bar brawls.


 
The problem is that most people can't get past the "stepping on the toes"...

To many people wanting the "feel good" gospel... The Word of God will always be offensive to those that are too concerned about "SELF"

We are all such an offense to God, we have nothing to feel good about within ourselves...

God didn't have to Save anyone, and yet he has Saved so many just because He chose to...

How many times did the Gospel step on your toes, before God Saved you?

It was plenty of times for me, and even after Salvation my toes get step on frequently...

We are all "filthy rags"...

DB BB


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## earl (Apr 12, 2010)

Double Barrel BB said:


> The problem is that most people can't get past the "stepping on the toes"...
> 
> To many people wanting the "feel good" gospel... The Word of God will always be offensive to those that are too concerned about "SELF"
> 
> ...




I disagree,. If God thought you were worth saving ,who are you to tell him you are not worthy ? God evidently thinks you are worthy. Why not say Thank you and rejoice ? If you are truly saved , don't worry,be happy.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 12, 2010)

We are not worthy in the sense that we've done nothing to deserve it. 

You're right, clearly he thought we were worth saving....but we did not deserve it.


----------



## earl (Apr 12, 2010)

Sometimes my wife will give me a small present that I clearly do not deserve. All I can do is say thank you and be happy. Especially when I don't deserve it.


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## Double Barrel BB (Apr 12, 2010)

earl said:


> I disagree,. If God thought you were worth saving ,who are you to tell him you are not worthy ? God evidently thinks you are worthy. Why not say Thank you and rejoice ? If you are truly saved , don't worry,be happy.


 
Because I am a wretched vile worm... that God chose to have Mercy upon... I am thankful for His Mercy, but it has shown me my wicked heart...

DB BB


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## earl (Apr 12, 2010)

So God is wrong in his opinion of those he saved ?


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## Double Barrel BB (Apr 12, 2010)

earl said:


> So God is wrong in his opinion of those he saved ?


 
No, I don't believe God is ever wrong. He wouldn't be God if He was.

Do I know why God Saved me? No, I just know that He did, by His Choice.

The Bible clearly teaches that we are all wretched vile sinners, nothing we have ever done is deserving of Salvation. It is a Gift from God. Do I know why I received this Gift? No. I guess I will have to ask God when I see Him...

DB BB


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## thedeacon (Apr 12, 2010)

I think it is ok to correct people at times, I believe that it is ok to outright chastise people at times, I believe it is ok to tell people that they are absolutely wrong at times, I think that it is ok to warn people that they are on the wrong path and that path is probably heading to he'll. I also believe it is ok to tell people they have misinterpreted the bible at times.

BUT

We should have an attitude of love when we do it. We should not be happy we did it or had to do it for their sake. Attitude is very important to God and it should be important to us.

I do have a problem with my attitude and I am constantly working on it.

I have said before on here; *(If you are going to tell me I am going to he'll you had better have a tear in your eyes.)*


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## obsession (Apr 12, 2010)

Double Barrel BB said:


> The Bible clearly teaches that we are all wretched vile sinners, nothing we have ever done is deserving of Salvation.



wow, how bold. i could never follow a lifestyle that degrades me in that way.


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## thedeacon (Apr 12, 2010)

Originally Posted by Double Barrel BB  

The Bible clearly teaches that we are all wretched vile sinners, nothing we have ever done is deserving of Salvation 
I truly don't think God looks at me that way.


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## Double Barrel BB (Apr 12, 2010)

obsession said:


> wow, how bold. i could never follow a lifestyle that degrades me in that way.


 
It is not degrading to me. I guess you have to realize just how much God loves you by Saving you, that we did nothing to deserve what He gives.

Does God have to make you feel good to Saved you?



thedeacon said:


> Originally Posted by Double Barrel BB
> 
> The Bible clearly teaches that we are all wretched vile sinners, nothing we have ever done is deserving of Salvation
> I truly don't think God looks at me that way.


 
So is what you are saying is that you deserved your Salvation?

DB BB


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## BeenHuntn (Apr 12, 2010)

Double Barrel BB said:


> We are all "filthy rags"...
> 
> DB BB



we are not filthy rags! all of our righteousness are as filthy rags. we are just filthy...


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## dawg2 (Apr 12, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> You are right...compassion and assistance....but the message has to be clear and consistent.
> 
> The worst thing that a parent can do is be inconsistent with discipline.  Worst thing a boss can do is be inconsistent with direction at work.  It leaves the child/employee confused and wondering what direction to go.
> 
> ...



Well, "bar brawl" was ismply used as a "metaphor."  Often times the threads degrade into such...

As far as consistency with discipline I agree.  Same with a child or a dog.  The message must be consistent.  But there is a lot to the "delivery."  Nobody goes around smacking their kid with a rolled up newspaper

I just think we should all consider the fact this is the SF and one would think we could address issues in a manner that would reflect the compassion of Christians and not that of fundamental Islamists


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## Inthegarge (Apr 12, 2010)

obsession said:


> wow, how bold. i could never follow a lifestyle that degrades me in that way.



Please expain how this "degrades" you..... I am at a loss to understand your point.....Thx RW


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## earl (Apr 12, 2010)

Double Barrel BB said:


> It is not degrading to me. I guess you have to realize just how much God loves you by Saving you, that we did nothing to deserve what He gives.
> 
> Does God have to make you feel good to Saved you?
> 
> ...




If you do not feel good after God has saved you  , something is wrong.
Salvation is a gift. You can accept it and say thank you and be glad you got something you didn't deserve. Or you can accept it and belittle the gift as something frivously given to undeserving people. Or you can say no .


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## obsession (Apr 12, 2010)

Double Barrel BB said:


> The Bible clearly teaches that we are all wretched vile sinners, nothing we have ever done is deserving of Salvation.





obsession said:


> wow, how bold. i could never follow a lifestyle that degrades me in that way.





Inthegarge said:


> Please expain how this "degrades" you..... I am at a loss to understand your point.....Thx RW



praising a religion that teaches that you are "wretched" and "vile" doesnt make any sense to me. 

i know people have different ways of looking at things, different ways of looking at the world, and different things that make them feel good and fulfilled. for me personally, being labelled as "wretched" and "vile" doesnt make me feel that great.

i understand that being labeled in such a way may not bother you, (though i dont understand _HOW_ it doesnt bother you), and that your beliefs and religion make you feel fulfilled.

it just doesnt work for me though. for me though, the thought of being looked down upon, labelled, and considered a "wretched and vile sinner", doesnt make me feel too great inside.

i have my wife, my son, my freedom, and the great outdoors, and thats all i need to get all the happiness i need in my life. when i get cold, i make a fire. when it gets hot, i open a window. when im hungry, i go hunting or fishing. _THIS_, is my own personal heaven. _THIS_, is what my life is all about.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Apr 13, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> we are not filthy rags! all of our righteousness are as filthy rags. we are just filthy...


 
It would probably really gross people out on here if they really knew what "filthy rags" is referring to in the Bible...



earl said:


> If you do not feel good after God has saved you , something is wrong.
> Salvation is a gift. You can accept it and say thank you and be glad you got something you didn't deserve. Or you can accept it and belittle the gift as something frivously given to undeserving people. Or you can say no .


 
I never said I don't feel good(to use the world's definition of good)... What I don't feel good about is being a sinner, and I pray that I never will, what I do feel good about is God Saving me. Me confessing my sinfullness doesn't belittle the gift. The gift stands alone... It is not a reflection of my sinfulness or my "goodness" it has nothing to do with those... It is a Gift from God, a Gift that He chooses to give. I nor anyone else has done anything(including be "good" or "bad") to deserve the Gift....



obsession said:


> praising a religion that teaches that you are "wretched" and "vile" doesnt make any sense to me.


 
If you don't know where you are, then how do you know where you are supposed to be going? My point, you have to be made aware of just how sinful you really are to appreciate the Gift that God gives.



obsession said:


> i know people have different ways of looking at things, different ways of looking at the world, and different things that make them feel good and fulfilled. for me personally, being labelled as "wretched" and "vile" doesnt make me feel that great.


 
It is not meant to make you "feel good"... It is meant to make you realize your need of a Savior, and just how great a sacrifice He did.



obsession said:


> i understand that being labeled in such a way may not bother you, (though i dont understand _HOW_ it doesnt bother you), and that your beliefs and religion make you feel fulfilled.


 
It does bother me, it bothers me so much that I try my very best to be more like Christ everyday... even though I fail miserably, I still keep trying.



obsession said:


> it just doesnt work for me though. for me though, the thought of being looked down upon, labelled, and considered a "wretched and vile sinner", doesnt make me feel too great inside.


 
It is not meant to make you "feel good" 



obsession said:


> i have my wife, my son, my freedom, and the great outdoors, and thats all i need to get all the happiness i need in my life. when i get cold, i make a fire. when it gets hot, i open a window. when im hungry, i go hunting or fishing. _THIS_, is my own personal heaven. _THIS_, is what my life is all about.


 
Sounds like you have a great life.. and a level head on your shoulders. God's gifts to us are tremendous, He intrusts us with many things, a family, a love for His creation, a way to provide for those that we Love. God's greatness and mercy is beyond measure.

DB BB


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## obsession (Apr 13, 2010)

obsession said:


> i have my wife, my son, my freedom, and the great outdoors, and thats all i need to get all the happiness i need in my life. when i get cold, i make a fire. when it gets hot, i open a window. when im hungry, i go hunting or fishing. _THIS_, is my own personal heaven. _THIS_, is what my life is all about.





Double Barrel BB said:


> Sounds like you have a great life.. and a level head on your shoulders. God's gifts to us are tremendous, He intrusts us with many things, a family, a love for His creation, a way to provide for those that we Love. God's greatness and mercy is beyond measure.



and there it is, the 'ole "bait and switch".

gods mercy.... hmm..... ill remember that next time a bunch of miners get trapped in a mine, or an airplane is hijacked and flown into a building........


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## rjcruiser (Apr 13, 2010)

dawg2 said:


> I just think we should all consider the fact this is the SF and one would think we could address issues in a manner that would reflect the compassion of Christians and not that of fundamental Islamists



Where's the towel head sawing off a person's head emoticon


----------



## Huntinfool (Apr 13, 2010)

That's just wrong right there......RJ....go to time out!


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## rjcruiser (Apr 13, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> That's just wrong right there......RJ....go to time out!



boy...one minute for every year....ummm...has it been 30 minutes yet


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## PWalls (Apr 13, 2010)

obsession said:


> gods mercy.... hmm..... ill remember that next time a bunch of miners get trapped in a mine, or an airplane is hijacked and flown into a building........



Also, be sure and remember it every day when you look at your wife, your son, your freedom and the great outdoors.


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## drippin' rock (Apr 13, 2010)

> Originally Posted by Huntinfool
> But please....PLEASE don't come in here and tell me "judge not, lest ye be judged." That plucked verse is simply a cop out, used out of context for those who want to do what they want to do.



Please explain how this verse should be used?

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 
 3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. 

Seems pretty self-explanatory.  I see much Judging going on in this part of the forum, usually from the same key people.  I don't think Christ meant for toe-stepping and sarcasm to be used as teaching tools in his command "Go forth and teach...."


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## Huntinfool (Apr 13, 2010)

> 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.



Well....since you asked.  It should be used just like this.  If you judge, be careful how you do it and with what attitude you do it with....you will be judged similarly.

It is a warning that we are not to judge any more harshly or unfairly than we intend to be judged ourselves.  We are to be godly in our judgement.  That is how it should be used.

I've already explained the dust and plank passage in an earlier post.  Go back and read it.  As I've said before, this is probably the most oft quoted passage in the Bible.  It is typically quoted out of context and used as a cop out for those who want to continue on doing what they are doing.

It is clear throughout the NT that we are to be accountable to our brothers in Christ.  The warning in the passage is about critical attitudes and non-spirit led criticism/discernment/judging.  Clearly, the attitude of the "judger" is key to whatever you want to call it.  Discernment in showing a brother the error of his ways is always a good thing.  Criticism for the sake of criticism is what is being addressed IMO.


----------



## drippin' rock (Apr 13, 2010)

I know with a faceless forum it can be difficult to interpret someone's tone correctly.  However, I see what looks like much sarcasm and anger toward anyone with a different viewpoint.  I don't think everyone that poses a view counter to the Christian view is doing it to get a rise( I know some do!).  I wonder if non-christians reading this Forum get a good view of Christianity when accusations are flying back and forth?

I take that verse to mean we are not to judge anyone for any reason.  Judging will be done by God.  Our job is to love and nuture our fellow man.  If someone has an opinion different than ours or lives their lives differently than us, and are not receptive to our ways or teaching, then so be it.  Telling them they are wrong and ridiculing certainly won't help.  Everything we do and say is a witness to someone.


----------



## Huntinfool (Apr 13, 2010)

I think a lot of folks come in here thinking this area will be more the "spiritual encouragement" section.  It is not.  It's here for the purpose of debate.  If we can't disagree, then there's not much room for debate.

Disagreement necessarily means that I tell you "you're wrong"....that's how it works.

Let me clarify what I said earlier a bit.  My point was that there is not a sentence in that passage that goes like this:

"Judge not."......it's not there.

It essentially says don't judge unless your heart is prepared to be judged accordingly.  I think that's a deeply profound statement that many Christians gloss over.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 13, 2010)

drippin' rock said:


> Telling them they are wrong and ridiculing certainly won't help.  Everything we do and say is a witness to someone.



Ridiculing certainly won't help....that is for sure.

Telling them they are wrong if they are wrong and doing it properly....certainly WILL help.  It is necessary and is spoken of many times throughout the NT.


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## obsession (Apr 13, 2010)

PWalls said:


> Also, be sure and remember it every day when you look at your wife, your son, your freedom and the great outdoors.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 13, 2010)

drippin' rock said:


> I take that verse to mean we are not to judge anyone for any reason.  Judging will be done by God.  Our job is to love and nuture our fellow man.  If someone has an opinion different than ours or lives their lives differently than us, and are not receptive to our ways or teaching, then so be it.



So you don't agree with Matt 18:15-17?


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## Double Barrel BB (Apr 13, 2010)

obsession said:


> and there it is, the 'ole "bait and switch".
> 
> gods mercy.... hmm..... ill remember that next time a bunch of miners get trapped in a mine, or an airplane is hijacked and flown into a building........


 
Call it what you will... May God open your eyes.

Bad things happen to "good" people, just like "good" things happen to bad people...

DB BB


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## drippin' rock (Apr 13, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> So you don't agree with Matt 18:15-17?


15"If your brother sins against you,* go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[c] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. **

How is someone with a different opinion "sinning against you"?  If someone is an atheist, and won't convert, what good is taking others along to gather testimony?  This passage is on how to deal with grievances inside the Church.*


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## thedeacon (Apr 13, 2010)

Double Barrel BB said:


> It is not degrading to me. I guess you have to realize just how much God loves you by Saving you, that we did nothing to deserve what He gives.
> 
> Does God have to make you feel good to Saved you?
> 
> ...



No I am not even close to deserving my salvation. That is so far from my mind but God gave his son for me to be saved and I don't think God looks at me as being wretched or a worm any more than I look at my own children in that way.

God paid to big a price for my sins to view me that way. In other words I am to expensive.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 13, 2010)

drippin' rock said:


> How is someone with a different opinion "sinning against you"?  If someone is an atheist, and won't convert, what good is taking others along to gather testimony?  This passage is on how to deal with grievances inside the Church.




I took it from your above post that a Christian should not judge at all.

So, based on your clarification, you agree that Christians are to judge other Christians, just not non-Christians?


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## Double Barrel BB (Apr 13, 2010)

drippin' rock said:


> 15"If your brother sins against you,* go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[c] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. **
> 
> How is someone with a different opinion "sinning against you"? If someone is an atheist, and won't convert, what good is taking others along to gather testimony? This passage is on how to deal with grievances inside the Church.*


*

An athiest is not a "brother", as the term "brother" is used in the Bible. "Brother" means fellow believer.

DB BB*


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## drippin' rock (Apr 13, 2010)

I'll admit, I'm fairly new to this delving into Scripture stuff, so I don't understand how confronting a brother one on one who has wronged you, is the same as Judging?


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## drippin' rock (Apr 13, 2010)

Double Barrel BB said:


> An athiest is not a "brother", as the term "brother" is used in the Bible. "Brother" means fellow believer.
> 
> DB BB




Right.  I understand that.  I was explaining my interpretation of the Judge not.... passage, and rj asked if I agreed with Matthew 18:15-17.  I am saying I don't think the two scriptures mean the same thing.  I don't think the passage in Matthew is talking about judging.


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## Double Barrel BB (Apr 13, 2010)

drippin' rock said:


> I'll admit, I'm fairly new to this delving into Scripture stuff, so I don't understand how confronting a brother one on one who has wronged you, is the same as Judging?


 
What if you misinterperted the "wrong"? I am not saying all instances are like this, but sometimes people draw the wrong conclusions about how someone has "wronged" them. We have all rushed to "judge" someone based on partial or incomplete information... based on rumors or gossip...

In essense we all judge someone by just thinking they have "wronged" us... You have to use your "judgement" to know whether it is a "wrong" or not...

So it can be the same... Understand?

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Apr 13, 2010)

thedeacon said:


> No I am not even close to deserving my salvation. That is so far from my mind but God gave his son for me to be saved and I don't think God looks at me as being wretched or a worm any more than I look at my own children in that way.
> 
> God paid to big a price for my sins to view me that way. In other words I am to expensive.


 
Just thinking out loud here.... How about all of those that are not Saved? Are they worth less?

DB BB


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## rjcruiser (Apr 13, 2010)

drippin' rock said:


> I'll admit, I'm fairly new to this delving into Scripture stuff, so I don't understand how confronting a brother one on one who has wronged you, is the same as Judging?



I gotcha.....no worries on being new into delving into scriptures....it is a great way to learn through debate.  I must say, I've learned a ton over the year and half I've been debating/discussin in this forum



drippin' rock said:


> Right.  I understand that.  I was explaining my interpretation of the Judge not.... passage, and rj asked if I agreed with Matthew 18:15-17.  I am saying I don't think the two scriptures mean the same thing.  I don't think the passage in Matthew is talking about judging.



I see your point a little bit.  But I think that the passage "Judge not lest you be judged" is a similar passage.  It goes on to talk about the plank in your brother's eye.  Again, confrontation of sin.

You are right...we need to be extremely careful in confrontation of sin.  That is why Matthew 18 has 4 steps before one is "kicked-out" of the fellowship and treated as an unbeliever.

But, in order for one to confront, the judgement must be made that their is sin in the life of one and that they are "in the wrong."

Those are my thoughts...I don't understand how one could believe in church discipline (aka Matt 18) and say that "God is the only one to judge."

Hope that helps to clear it up and where I'm coming from.


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## thedeacon (Apr 13, 2010)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Just thinking out loud here.... How about all of those that are not Saved? Are they worth less?
> 
> DB BB



Absolutely not, God in his goodness does not look at any of his children as worthless. 
Even the worst of the sinners is still a child of God, when I have a child he will always be my child no matter what he does against me. 
The differance it God will always love the sinner no matter how bad the sin, he loves the sinner but hates the sin.


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## FishHunt (Apr 13, 2010)

Double Barrel BB said:


> The Bible clearly teaches that we are all wretched vile sinners, nothing we have ever done is deserving of Salvation. ....
> 
> DB BB



I don't think God looks at me any differently than I look at our own kids.  In my eyes they deserve the best that this life and the afterlife has to offer.


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## tell sackett (Apr 14, 2010)

drippin' rock said:


> I know with a faceless forum it can be difficult to interpret someone's tone correctly.  However, I see what looks like much sarcasm and anger toward anyone with a different viewpoint.  I don't think everyone that poses a view counter to the Christian view is doing it to get a rise( I know some do!).  I wonder if non-christians reading this Forum get a good view of Christianity when accusations are flying back and forth?
> 
> I take that verse to mean we are not to judge anyone for any reason.  Judging will be done by God.  Our job is to love and nuture our fellow man.  If someone has an opinion different than ours or lives their lives differently than us, and are not receptive to our ways or teaching, then so be it.  Telling them they are wrong and ridiculing certainly won't help.  Everything we do and say is a witness to someone.


drippin' rock, while I agree with you that ridiculing someone isn't the way to make a point(and I'm ashamed to say that I've probably been guilty of it myself, sometimes in the heat of battle so to speak I don't take enough time to think before I post), I have to go with Huntinfool on his explanation of Matt.7:1. I think he was dead on. 

You're right that we should love our fellow man, but that's only part of the story. We should also hate and rebuke sin just as God does. If Matt.7:1 means that we are never to judge, then what do we do with passages like John7:24 and 1Cor.5:1-12? 

Again, you're right that everything we do and say is a witness but think about this: what we don't do and say can be a witness also.


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## Diogenes (Apr 14, 2010)

“Anything said in here should be backed up by Scripture.”

“A Christian should always yse Scripture to back up their opinion.” 

“There really can't be much of a debate if you don't agree with the material that backs up the other posters belief...”  

Um?  It would be a good thing to be in perfect agreement about our fictitious sources?  Huh?  Indeed.  And Wiccans should always use only Wicca to back up their opinions, and communists should always use only communism to back up their opinions, and sub-prime mortgage lenders should always use only the lease price of a Mercedes to back their opinions . . .  and so?  This is good thinking?  See, the problem here is one of a flawed premise, and if one puts forward the contention that any disagreement with that premise is not acceptable in the discussion, then we can have so much fun here that it is beyond imagination – Scientology contends that the Earth was effectively ‘seeded’ by aliens, and although you know that to be absurd, you cannot prove that it is not true . . . Now it is reasoned, by the above quotes,  that one cannot even argue against that idea without first accepting it and arguing only from the ‘Scripture’ that is embraced by those who adhere to that thought – all other opinions are unacceptable?  C’mon.     

“Death may be the only way to arrive at a true answer.”  Well, at the very least, once dead, answers will sort of lose their importance.  If only because, at that point, you’ll be dead.  I can’t imagine that the small bit of a cow I had for dinner tonight was still struggling with the philosophical implications of no longer being a cow.  I suspect that the cow died, rather in opposition to that event, and had nary another thought from that moment onward.  It would be a bit disturbing to think that a fella who got his head blown off by an RPG had even a moment to look back and think, “Geez, that sort of sucked . . .”  Dead is dead.  Dead is what you just had for dinner.  Sorry about that.     

“when two Christians do not agree, someone (or both) is in error. God can never be in error and He is not the author of confusion.”   Certainly you have to be kidding.  I can post a few hundred pages of direct Bible quotes that are in complete contradiction of each other.  So certainly the Bible contradicts itself, and repeatedly.  Does this mean that God might not be the author?  Heck, even tell sackett quotes the contradictions, inadvertently – “You're right that we should love our fellow man, but that's only part of the story. We should also hate and rebuke sin just as God does. If Matt.7:1 means that we are never to judge, then what do we do with passages like John7:24 and 1Cor.5:1-12?”  Darn.  Indeed.  What do we do with these obviously contradictory thoughts, faced with the contention that God can never be in error?

“An athiest is not a "brother", as the term "brother" is used in the Bible. "Brother" means fellow believer.”  And there, ladies and gentlemen, you see nearly everything that is wrong in the world contained in a single statement.

But the poor fella can’t leave it be: “ . . . but sometimes people draw the wrong conclusions about how someone has "wronged" them. We have all rushed to "judge" someone based on partial or incomplete information... based on rumors or gossip...”    Um?   Should I insert a bunch of those childish animated emoticon things of yours here?  Here we have the completion of everything that is wrong – running and hiding from a simple declarative statement made without any duress, and trying to rationalize it away.   Sir, either your ‘Brothers’ are limited to those who think as you do, or they are not.  You made that judgment, then tried to back away from it . . .   Which is it?

The condemnation, you can easily see, is one sided.  Those few who think alike tend to not only judge but also go far enough to kill those who do not.  One can protest that ‘True Christians’ no longer engage in that sort of behavior, and be very wrong.  One can protest out of one side of the mouth that ‘True Christians’ do not judge or condemn, and be very wrong.  One can protest that it is a small minority of militant idiots among the ‘True Christians’ who give the rest a bad name, but by dropping even a single cent into the collection basket that supports them your argument evaporates.  

By all evidence, even in this small forum, organized religions are remnants of tribal societies, designed solely to provide some sort of collective protection to the like minded, and to stamp out all opposition by any means necessary.  Even a cursory review of history supports this view, and one need only read this entire thread carefully, with an open mind, to see that nothing at all has changed . . .  The message is clear – agree or be cast out and condemned for eternity.

Not the sort of thing we consider to be very neighborly, these days . . .


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## Double Barrel BB (Apr 14, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> “An athiest is not a "brother", as the term "brother" is used in the Bible. "Brother" means fellow believer.” And there, ladies and gentlemen, you see nearly everything that is wrong in the world contained in a single statement.


 
This coming from an Athiest... One that is only here to sow discord and strife, one that enjoys getting under peoples skin.... So forgive me if I don't hold you in such high regard as I do my "Brother" in Christ.



Diogenes said:


> But the poor fella can’t leave it be: “ . . . but sometimes people draw the wrong conclusions about how someone has "wronged" them. We have all rushed to "judge" someone based on partial or incomplete information... based on rumors or gossip...” Um? Should I insert a bunch of those childish animated emoticon things of yours here? Here we have the completion of everything that is wrong – running and hiding from a simple declarative statement made without any duress, and trying to rationalize it away. Sir, either your ‘Brothers’ are limited to those who think as you do, or they are not. You made that judgment, then tried to back away from it . . . Which is it?


 
You completely missed my point. Which doesn't surprise me in the least.



Diogenes said:


> The condemnation, you can easily see, is one sided. Those few who think alike tend to not only judge but also go far enough to kill those who do not. One can protest that ‘True Christians’ no longer engage in that sort of behavior, and be very wrong. One can protest out of one side of the mouth that ‘True Christians’ do not judge or condemn, and be very wrong. One can protest that it is a small minority of militant idiots among the ‘True Christians’ who give the rest a bad name, but by dropping even a single cent into the collection basket that supports them your argument evaporates.


 
So now you have aligned us with "kill"er's, well that was mighty "neighborly" of you there... You say we condemn, yet throughout this entire post you are doing the same thing... Then you revolve it around money... ridiculous... you have a very warped view.



Diogenes said:


> Not the sort of thing we consider to be very neighborly, these days . . .


 
Just what do you consider neighborly? And by what understanding do you come by what is neighborly?? By your own understanding it seems...

DB BB


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## gtparts (Apr 14, 2010)

*Dio,*

Another rant? I could not bring myself to hit the quote button.

You did, however, get one thing close to correct. Your next to last sentence should read:

"The message is clear – agree with God or be cast out and condemned for eternity."

Sorry, there is no partial credit. If you don't believe in God, it is impossible to agree with Him.

Seems you have made your bed....


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## Double Barrel BB (Apr 14, 2010)

gtparts said:


> another rant? I could not bring myself to hit the quote button.
> 
> You did, however, get one thing close to correct. Your next to last sentence should read:
> 
> ...


 

*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Huntinfool (Apr 14, 2010)

> I can post a few hundred pages of direct Bible quotes that are in complete contradiction of each other



*Do it.....I dare you.*




> If Matt.7:1 means that we are never to judge, then what do we do with passages like John7:24 and 1Cor.5:1-12?” Darn. Indeed. What do we do with these obviously contradictory thoughts, faced with the contention that God can never be in error?



....and PLEASE....make them better than this one.  Surely you can do better than that.



If you don't feel like posting them here, I'll send you my email address and you can send those hundreds of pages to me that way.


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## FishHunt (Apr 14, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> . . .  The message is clear – agree or be cast out and condemned for eternity.
> 
> .



You are spot on with that one sentence.  As a Christian myself I don't share that belief.  I don't believe God will cast anyone out for doubting or not believe in Jesus Christ.   
I believe God is bigger than any one religion.....


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## rjcruiser (Apr 14, 2010)

FishHunt said:


> You are spot on with that one sentence.  As a Christian myself I don't share that belief.  I don't believe God will cast anyone out for doubting or not believe in Jesus Christ.
> I believe God is bigger than any one religion.....





How can you call yourself a "Christian" yet not believe in the manual that God gave us on how to be a "Christian?"


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## tell sackett (Apr 14, 2010)

FishHunt said:


> You are spot on with that one sentence.  As a Christian myself I don't share that belief.  I don't believe God will cast anyone out for doubting or not believe in Jesus Christ.
> I believe God is bigger than any one religion.....


John3:18- He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


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## FishHunt (Apr 14, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> How can you call yourself a "Christian" yet not believe in the manual that God gave us on how to be a "Christian?"



Glad you find my beliefs to be so amusing.   So I'm not Christian enough in your eyes? I find that amusing.  

BTW.....God gave us Jesus,  but man wrote the Bible.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 14, 2010)

OK...I know I'm perpetuating the myth that's been floating around here.  But I'll answer for RJ....



FishHunt said:


> So I'm not Christian enough in your eyes?



It's not a question of "enough".  If you believe that the things written in the Bible may not be true....

...and you believe this....



> You are spot on with that one sentence. As a Christian myself I don't share that belief. I don't believe God will cast anyone out for doubting or not believe in Jesus Christ.
> I believe God is bigger than any one religion.....



Then no...."enough" is not the issue.  At the very least seriously mis-guided and in need of serious discipleship.


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## WTM45 (Apr 14, 2010)

FishHunt said:


> BTW.....God gave us Jesus,  but man wrote the Bible.



Now you're cooking with gas.

We can go back even further than the NT and the life of Jesus to discuss the "oral traditions" that were not put into writing until many generations after they were first told.
And a deity "gave" us eternal life through a human sacrifice.  A human son.
You are OK with that, but not some of the other stuff?


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## rjcruiser (Apr 14, 2010)

FishHunt said:


> Glad you find my beliefs to be so amusing.   So I'm not Christian enough in your eyes? I find that amusing.
> 
> BTW.....God gave us Jesus,  but man wrote the Bible.





Huntinfool said:


> OK...I know I'm perpetuating the myth that's been floating around here.  But I'll answer for RJ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...





WTM45 said:


> Now you're cooking with gas.
> 
> We can go back even further than the NT and the life of Jesus to discuss the "oral traditions" that were not put into writing until many generations after they were first told.
> And a deity "gave" us eternal life through a human sacrifice.  A human son.
> You are OK with that, but not some of the other stuff?




Thanks HF...you hit the nail on the head...either you are or you aren't.  

I find it amusing that you believe in Christ, yet not His teachings.  That is incompatible.

You and WTM argue that it is compatible due to the fact that Christ was given to us by God, yet the Bible was written by man.

I find that weak at best.  How did you learn about Christ?  Obviously, you haven't seen Him face to face nor heard His teachings directly.

And then...there's the point that archeological finds have found that the message/Bible has not changed over the centuries from the earliest texts we find.  Amazing, but those guys who hand-copied things did a fantastic job of not changing what was there.


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## FishHunt (Apr 14, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> .....*"oral traditions" that were not put into writing until many generations after they were first told.*
> And a deity "gave" us eternal life through a human sacrifice.  A human son.
> You are OK with that, but not some of the other stuff?



Yep...especially when you put it that way.


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## FishHunt (Apr 14, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Obviously, you haven't seen Him face to face nor heard His teachings directly.



You don't know this.  Have you?



rjcruiser said:


> And then...there's the point that archeological finds have found that the message/Bible has not changed over the centuries from the earliest texts we find.  Amazing, but those guys who hand-copied things did a fantastic job of not changing what was there.



So what is your point? Those archeological findings were written, at best, hundreds of years after the fact.


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## WTM45 (Apr 14, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> You and WTM argue that it is compatible due to the fact that Christ was given to us by God, yet the Bible was written by man.



I'm not arguing for any compatability.  I easily see how to reject it all as Atheists do.
I'm just not 100% in a default position.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 14, 2010)

FishHunt said:


> You don't know this.  Have you?



So you're 2000 years old?



			
				FishHunt said:
			
		

> So what is your point? Those archeological findings were written, at best, hundreds of years after the fact.



Your ignorance is showing now.  You really shouldn't just spout off when you don't know the answer.

For your information, there are documents that have been found dating back to 150AD.  That would be less than 100 years after they were originally penned.


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## FishHunt (Apr 14, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> So you're 2000 years old?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What if we "settle" on 75 years, 3 days, 4 hours, 23 minutes and 32 seconds.  Still doesn't change my opinion..
BTW haven't you heard?  Ignorance is bliss


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## Madman (Apr 14, 2010)

FishHunt said:


> You are spot on with that one sentence.  As a Christian myself I don't share that belief.  I don't believe God will cast anyone out for doubting or not believe in Jesus Christ.



I see some conflicting remarks.


"As a Christian myself..."  (does not equal)  "I don't believe God will cast anyone out for doubting or not believe in Jesus Christ."

It is not about "believing" in Jesus, it is about accepting what He did for us on the cross.

It is also not about being cast out, it is about being eternally separated, if we don't accept Christ as the only way we never get there to be cast out.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Apr 14, 2010)

Where is the "Oh Brother" smiley??


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## rjcruiser (Apr 19, 2010)

bump for a little JK refresh.  

So...I'll say it again.

What's so wrong with calling sin...sin?


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## Huntinfool (Apr 19, 2010)

"What we call dis, at seventy-foth street Baptist church....we call a sinny sinnnnnnn sin...how 'bout you gimme a little bit fo my cataract my brother?"




Sorry RJ....I had to.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 19, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> "What we call dis, at seventy-foth street Baptist church....we call a sinny sinnnnnnn sin...how 'bout you gimme a little bit fo my cataract my brother?"
> 
> View attachment 512935
> 
> ...



You know....for quoting (and apparently you've watched) the movie Friday....you are going to he!!.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 19, 2010)

I promise you I've seen that movie no less than 200 times....and I'm not kidding.  

Let's just say it was in my pre-conversion days (though I'd honestly still probably watch it...it's freakin' hilarious).

Don't condemn me!  Don't judge me!  You don't know me!  God says don't judge!  Moat and beam!  Judge not!....and all that stuff.


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