# Jews that hate Yeshu



## hobbs27

As many Christians pray for the survival of Israel and await things that have already come to pass, many Jews are fed up with your missionary work, and tell us how they really feel about Jesus.


http://koshertorah.com/PDF/Yeshu-HaNotzri.pdf


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## Lowjack

Well you would be too , if a Jehova witness came to your door or a Seventh day adventist or any other church not considered Christian.

Many Jews have issues with Today's Christianity Doctrines , such as worshipping a man ,3 gods,Praying to saints , Not Keeping the law , the Torah teaches against these things , how then can someone come and tell me to believe these things and forsake what G-d told us was a PERPETUAL covenant ?


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## rjcruiser

hobbs27 said:


> As many Christians pray for the survival of Israel and await things that have already come to pass, many Jews are fed up with your missionary work, and tell us how they really feel about Jesus.
> 
> 
> http://koshertorah.com/PDF/Yeshu-HaNotzri.pdf



Didn't watch the video/click the link...but at the end of the day, we are to love our enemies...pray for them...witness to them.  They are God's chosen people and He has a plan for them.  



Lowjack said:


> Well you would be too , if a Jehova witness came to your door or a Seventh day adventist or any other church not considered Christian.
> 
> Many Jews have issues with Today's Christianity Doctrines , such as worshipping a man ,3 gods,Praying to saints , Not Keeping the law , the Torah teaches against these things , how then can someone come and tell me to believe these things and forsake what G-d told us was a PERPETUAL covenant ?



  Why am I not surprised by your response?


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## hobbs27

Lowjack said:


> Well you would be too , if a Jehova witness came to your door or a Seventh day adventist or any other church not considered Christian.
> 
> Many Jews have issues with Today's Christianity Doctrines , such as worshipping a man ,3 gods,Praying to saints , Not Keeping the law , the Torah teaches against these things , how then can someone come and tell me to believe these things and forsake what G-d told us was a PERPETUAL covenant ?



Would you say this is how most Jews feel about Christians, or a few?I find it interesting especially the way premillinial Christians typically hold the Jew as a higher being...or closer to God than themselves.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Would you say this is how most Jews feel about Christians, or a few?I find it interesting especially the way premillinial Christians typically hold the Jew as a higher being...or closer to God than themselves.



Not that I'm trying to get away from the op nor do I even care how most Jews feel about my Salvation, but do you see Christians who are premillinial lacking in Salvation?
I'm just trying to get a handle on who you feel are true Christians. Just to let you no how I feel, I believe Jesus is my savior and is the only path  for me to see God.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Not that I'm trying to get away from the op nor do I even care how most Jews feel about my Salvation, but do you see Christians who are premillinial lacking in Salvation?
> I'm just trying to get a handle on who you feel are true Christians. Just to let you no how I feel, I believe Jesus is my savior and is the only path  for me to see God.



Absolutely not lacking in salvation.I love my premillinial brother's and sisters.We just differ on some things but not Salvation.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Absolutely not lacking in salvation.I love my premillinial brother's and sisters.We just differ on some things but not Salvation.



Ok, i'm down with that, on with the discussion.


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## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> They are God's chosen people and He has a plan for them.


Are you referring to the physical descendents of Abraham or the spiritual? Isaiah described the physical descendants of Abraham, the physical nation of Israel, as reprobate (Isaiah 2:6). The forsaken of God can not be saved (Isaiah 6:9-12, John 12:37-41).

There is a spiritual seed, the elect (Jew and Gentile) of God, scattered around the world. These are "the Israel of God" and "all Israel shall be saved".


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## hobbs27

This from the file....

" Yeshu lived a life of division, prejudice and violence. He died a death that was fitting of
someone who so flagrantly violated G-d’s laws. There is no need to argue who killed
Yeshu, whether it was the Romans or the Jews. Neither killed him. It was G-d who
killed Yeshu. Or better yet, it was G-d that allowed nature to take its course and allowed
Yeshu to reap the fruits of what he had sown.
To call such a man G-d is a criminal mistake that must end, and will end very shortly with
the coming of G-d’s true messiah."


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## hobbs27

This also....

_It is this 2,000 year old monument, this standing Western Wall of the ancient temple that
bears witness that Yeshu’s prophecy regarding the destruction of temple did not come
true. Yeshu is recorded as saying, “Not one stone shall be left upon another, which will
not be torn down.” The Western Wall of the temple still stands. It has always stood.
Many stones, one on top of the other, today remain the way they stood at the time that
Yeshu himself laid eyes upon them. His prophecy of “Not one stone shall be left upon
another, which will not be torn down” was, therefore, not fulfilled!"_

There's a problem with this, and it's the wall was not a wall of the temple but a wall around the city.Jesus prophecy stands!


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## rjcruiser

gemcgrew said:


> There is a spiritual seed, the elect (Jew and Gentile) of God, scattered around the world. These are "the Israel of God" and "all Israel shall be saved".



I would disagree.  The Church did not replace Israel in the Abrahamic Covenant.  



hobbs27 said:


> This from the file....
> 
> " Yeshu lived a life of division, prejudice and violence. He died a death that was fitting of
> someone who so flagrantly violated G-d’s laws. There is no need to argue who killed
> Yeshu, whether it was the Romans or the Jews. Neither killed him. It was G-d who
> killed Yeshu. Or better yet, it was G-d that allowed nature to take its course and allowed
> Yeshu to reap the fruits of what he had sown.
> To call such a man G-d is a criminal mistake that must end, and will end very shortly with
> the coming of G-d’s true messiah."



Is that any different from the position of the Jews that were alive during Jesus' time?  Did that keep Jesus from giving them the message?


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## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> I would disagree.  The Church did not replace Israel in the Abrahamic Covenant.


The Jewish  church was a shadow and type. The Abrahamic Covenant, along with the others, is partial revelation of the everlasting covenant of grace. This made with Christ before the world began.

The Church is the Israel of God. "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:28,29)

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." (Galatians 3:7)


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## hobbs27

rjcruiser said:


> Is that any different from the position of the Jews that were alive during Jesus' time?  Did that keep Jesus from giving them the message?



I cant determine how many Jews of that time, or this time take this position.I do know the Jew was the first to become Christian, and I know once they realized Jesus was indeed Lord and that they had participated in murdering Him, they were pricked in the heart and was at a loss as to what they should do.
 Peter explained they were to repent and be baptized....Too many Christians give Jews a bye on salvation pointing to the old covenant as a way of salvation for them....There is only one way!


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## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Too many Christians give Jews a bye on salvation pointing to the old covenant as a way of salvation for them....There is only one way!


There has only been one way ever.


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## rjcruiser

gemcgrew said:


> The Church is the Israel of God.



And this would be where we disagree.



hobbs27 said:


> Peter explained they were to repent and be baptized....Too many Christians give Jews a bye on salvation pointing to the old covenant as a way of salvation for them....There is only one way!



Absolutely.



gemcgrew said:


> There has only been one way ever.



x2....we are shown this in Hebrews.


This does not mean though, that God's promise to Israel is void.


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## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> There has only been one way ever.



I agree, but there's other folks that point to different ways.


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## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> This does not mean though, that God's promise to Israel is void.


Do you believe God's promise is to national Israel?


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## rjcruiser

gemcgrew said:


> Do you believe God's promise is to national Israel?



As far as the Abrahamic covenant, it was to Abraham and his descendents.  And there was a reason that Abraham fell asleep and did not pass between the animals that were cut in two.  God knew that they'd never be able to keep their end of the covenent....but God did pass between those animals.  God's promise to Abraham will never be broken.


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## rjcruiser

hobbs27 said:


> I agree, but there's other folks that point to different ways.



And that would be a false gospel.


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## hobbs27

rjcruiser said:


> And that would be a false gospel.



Pat Robertson and John Hagee have both expressed their belief in a dual covenant, so would you consider them to be teachers of a false Gospel ? 
I would.


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## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> As far as the Abrahamic covenant, it was to Abraham and his descendents.


Physical or spiritual descendents?


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## rjcruiser

hobbs27 said:


> Pat Robertson and John Hagee have both expressed their belief in a dual covenant, so would you consider them to be teachers of a false Gospel ?
> I would.



Don't know much about Pat Robertson...even less about John Hagee...but yes, I'd agree with you.  No matter who you are...if you preach a different way to God than through Christ, you're a false teacher.



gemcgrew said:


> Physical or spiritual descendents?



If you read the account in Genesis, it appears to me to be a promise to physical descendents.  If it was spiritual, the birth of Isaac to Sarai would be a non story.  The sacrifice of Isaac...non-issue.  

Now...was the Church grafted in to the physical tree of that promise?  I believe so.  But...the tree...the original promise...the people it was made to...can't be cut out.


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## Lowjack

Israel and the Church are Different

 The other view, we believe, is clearly taught in the New Testament, but it has been suppressed throughout most of Church history. This view is that the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two should not be confused. In fact, the Church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the Day of Pentecost after Christ’s resurrection from the dead, and will continue until it is taken to Heaven at the Rapture return of the Lord Eph. 1:9-11). None of the curses or blessings pronounced upon Israel refer directly to the Church. The Church enters into the Abrahamic and New Covenants, for instance, only by divine application, not by original interpretation Matt 26:28).

This leaves all the covenants, promises, and warnings to Israel intact. Israel, the natural Jewish nation, is still Israel. To be sure, Israel has been side-lined during these past 1,900 years of the Diaspora. The Church has taken center stage in the Lord’s affairs as the Gospel has spread throughout the world. Nevertheless, God has carefully preserved the Jewish people, even in unbelief, through every kind of distress and persecution. Sometimes, the professing Church itself (I speak to our shame) has been a cause of these persecutions to the Jews.

 Not only has God preserved the Jewish nation, but He has also kept His promise to save a remnant of Israel in every generation. The remnant of Israel in this age are the Jewish believers in Christ who have joined the Gentile believers, and form the Church, the Body of Christ Rom. 11:5). In this respect, then, a part of Israel (the believing remnant) intersects with the Church during the Church Age. But this does not make Israel the Church, or vice versa.

 In the future, both God’s warnings and promises to Israel will come to pass. After the Lord is finished with the Church Age, and has taken the Church to Heaven in the Rapture 1 Thess. 4:16-18), God will restore Israel to center stage on the world’s divine theater. First comes the devastating “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” (Jer. 30:7) also known as the Great Tribulation. This is a dreadful period of seven years, which begins relatively lightly during the first half, but intensifies into full focus during the latter half. During this time the world is judged for rejecting Christ, but, more specifically, Israel is judged, purged and prepared through the fiery trials of the Great Tribulation for the Second Coming of the Messiah. This is the bad news.

 The good news is that, when Christ does return to the earth at the end of the Tribulation, Israel will be ready, willing, and eager to receive Him, and proclaim, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord” (Matt. 23:39). As the stumbling of Israel brought blessing to the world at Christ’s First Coming, the reception of Israel to Christ at His Second Advent will be like “life from the dead” (Rom. 11:15). The remnant of Israel which survives the Tribulation (some one-third of the Jewish people who enter the Tribulation), will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on the same earth and the same capital city, Jerusalem, that rejected Him centuries before. Israel will be the head of the nations, and no longer the tail, and all nations will send representatives to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Isa. 2:2-3; Micah 4:1). The Church will return with Christ, and will rule with Him for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-5). He Himself told His disciples that they would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel in the restoration (Matt. 19:28). Thus, Israel has not been forgotten in God’s plan. While the Jewish nation still has a dark period facing it, there is a glorious finale to Israel’s long history.

Thomas S. Mc Call T.H.D. Zola Ministries Sr. Theologian.


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## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> If you read the account in Genesis, it appears to me to be a promise to physical descendents.


Do you believe that all physical descendents of Abraham will be saved?


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Do you believe that all physical descendents of Abraham will be saved?



Maybe because of the stumbling of Israel, they will be given a chance.


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## hobbs27

Here is an awesome study done by Larry Siegle on the hopes for Israel.




THE DIVINE “MYSTERY” REVEALED AT LAST

 Everyone loves a good mystery.

 As the dramatic events emerge from deep within the shadows, the suspense builds toward its grand and glorious climax, as what was once a secret, is now revealed for all to see.

 The Bible is a revelation of God’s nature, the written expression of His character and the purpose from which His actions are evidenced.  From deep within the dramatic events of His story, events begin to emerge from the shadows of suspense, as His purpose nears its grand and glorious climax.  In the midst of this story, there is a mystery, and one that has implications for everyone who embraces it.



CLUE #1

The first clue in the revealing of the divine mystery took place while the apostle Peter was in Joppa, a coastal city situated along the Mediterranean Sea (Acts 10:5-8).  Peter had gone up to the roof of the house of Simon, a tanner by trade, to pray (Acts 10:9).  While praying, Peter fell into a trance and had a vision of a sheet coming down from heaven (Acts 10:11).  On the sheet there appeared “all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things and birds of the air” (Acts. 10:12).  He was told to “Rise...kill and eat” (Acts 10:13).  The response of the apostle Peter was one of significance, one that only later would he come to understand fully.  “But Peter said, ‘Not so, Lord!  For I have never eaten anything common [unholy] or unclean” (Acts 10:14).  He was told, “What God has cleansed you must not call common [unholy]” (Acts 10:15).  He received this same vision three times (Acts 10:16), but what could it mean?



Peter was puzzled by the vision of the “unholy” and “unclean” animals, uncertain about what it could have meant (Acts 10:17), until people came looking for him, sent by a Roman Centurion whose name was Cornelius (Acts 10:1-4, 17-19).  Fresh from his troubling vision, Peter was told by the Spirit to go down with the men, “doubting nothing; for I have sent them” (Acts 10:20).



For Peter, the acceptance of Cornelius was nothing short of astounding.  When Peter finally understood what God was doing, to those who had been sent from Cornelius, he exclaimed, “You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation.  But God has shown me that I should not call any man common [unholy] or unclean” (Acts. 10:28).  From his amazement, “Peter opened his mouth and said, ‘In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.  But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him” (Acts. 10:34, 35).  As the door of the divine mystery began to open, those who witnessed the grace of God being poured out on a Gentile were likewise “astonished” (Acts 10:14).  What was God doing? 



Peter “wondered within himself” (Acts 10:17), and the Jewish believers who witnessed the conversion of Cornelius were “astonished” by what had happened (Acts 10:45).  If this event had been in fulfillment of something already revealed in Old Testament prophecy, this would, decidedly, not have been their reaction.  



WHAT WAS KNOWN

Historical Israel was the tale of a divided people, divided hearts, and a divided Kingdom, separated through adversity arising from the tragic consequences of their own actions (Deut. 28:15-68).  The resulting bondage, suffering, and captivity had scattered God’s Covenant nation to the four winds, with little hope of reunification.  But God lovingly sent His prophets, providing Israel to the north and Judah to the south, with the message of hope for them.  What the Old Covenant could never accomplish for the people or for their children, the anticipated arrival of a New Covenant, with both the “house of Israel” and the “house of Judah” (Jer. 31:31-34) someday would.  The expectation of the nation was the fulfillment of the promises that once again they would be the one people, of the one land, all serving the One true God  (Deut. 30:1-6; Psa. 102:21, 22; 106:47; 107:2, 3; Ezek. 36:24-27; 37:1-28).  Once again would come the sound of rejoicing in Zion (Joel 2:23; Zeph. 3:14; Zech. 2:10; 9:9).



The regathering of Israel was known to Israel, carried by the mouth of the prophets, all looking toward the time of fulfillment.  It was no mystery, no cause for “wonder” or “astonishment,” since the prophets had plainly foretold it.  But God had something more in mind, something that, long before the division of the two Kingdoms, “in other ages was not made known” (Eph. 3:5).  It was something greater and far beyond what had been revealed plainly in the law or in the prophets.  This divine mystery “from the beginning of the ages” had been “hidden in God” (Eph. 3:9).  



Only the magnitude of the revealing of the divine mystery, something previously unknown, would have created such “shock and awe” in the hearts and minds of Peter and his Jewish brethren, and that time had finally arrived!



CLUE #2

A second clue in the revealing of the divine mystery had taken place prior to the events related in Peter’s vision.  Saul of Tarsus was a man of purpose. His life was destined for greatness from a very early age (Acts 7:58; 8:1; Phil. 3:4-6).  While traveling on the road to Damascus, Saul had a life-transforming encounter with Jesus Christ, and the inspired account was recorded three times (Acts 9:1-19; 22:6-21; 26:9-23).  From within these dramatic events, a new life emerged as Saul, a “chosen vessel,” became the apostle Paul (Acts 9:15; 13:9).  His life, his work, his mission were all necessary for the pieces of the redemptive puzzle once “hidden in God” to be revealed, something for which God had prepared him in advance (Gal. 1:1, 15).  The apostle Paul, as a “chosen vessel,” (Acts 9:15) would carry the divine mystery, progressively revealing the divine mystery for all to see.



The mission was given to Paul by Christ:  “He is a chosen vessel of mine to bear my name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15). “For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard...For I will send you far from here to the Gentiles” (Acts 22:15, 21).  “For I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you” (Acts 26:16).  The promise given to the apostle Paul was that the divine mystery would soon be revealed.



CLUE #3

A third clue in the revealing of the divine mystery was the progressive spread of the gospel that had begun “in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria,” would include both Jew and Gentile alike, “to the end of the earth” (Acts 1:8), a reference to the whole of the Roman Empire.  The mission of Paul, as apostle to the Gentiles (Rom. 11:3; I Tim. 2:7; II Tim. 1:1), was more than the prophesied regathering of the “house of Israel” and the “house of Judah” (Jer. 31:31-34), but was directed toward “all men” (Acts 17:30; 22:15).  Paul’s message to those in Athens was that God “now commands all men everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30). 



The divine mystery of the gospel directed toward the Gentiles was beginning to emerge as the “much more” of God’s purpose was being revealed (Rom. 5:9, 10, 17, 20; 11:12, 24; II Cor. 3:9, 11; Heb. 7:22; 9:14; I Pet. 1:7).



CLUE #4

The fourth clue in the revealing of the divine mystery was in the meaning of the “all men” which becomes a point of significance in understanding the comprehensive nature of Paul’s Gentile mission. The word “all” is πάντας meaning, “all, the whole, every kind of” and is modified in Acts 22:15 by ἀνθρώπους which describes, “mankind in general (inclusive of every man, woman and child).”  Paul was destined to be a witness “before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15).  The gospel of the Kingdom would be preached to “all the nations” before the end of the age would come (Matt. 24:14; 28:18-20; Mark 16:15; Luke 24:47).



The divine mystery was the redemptive history of the “house of Israel” and the “house of Judah” (Jer. 31:31) was to include the opportunity for “all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth” (I Tim. 2:4).  During the time between the Cross and A.D. 70, the grace of God was at work toward bringing in the “fullness of the Gentiles” (Rom 11:25) alongside the “remnant” (Rom. 11:5) of the “chosen generation” (I Pet. 2:9)--thus “all Israel” (Rom. 11:26) would be saved, including both Jew and Gentile--as the “Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16).



“That by revelation He made known to me the mystery...which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel...among the Gentiles, the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things” (Eph. 3:3-9).  Through the church, this mystery, the “manifold wisdom of God” (Eph. 3:10) was being accomplished  between the Cross and A.D. 70, to accomplish God’s “eternal purpose, which He carried out in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 3:10, 11).  



This was the mystery of the gospel (Eph. 6:19).  What had once been “hidden from past ages and generations...has now been manifested to his saints...this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col. 1;26, 27).  Paul had been given “the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets...has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith” (Rom. 16:25-27).  



The prophesied regathering of Israel into the New Covenant was no mystery (Jer. 31:31; Ezek. 36:24-27), but the inclusion of actual Gentiles--people from “all the nations”, into the “one body”  (Eph. 4:4-6) most certainly was!



CLUE #5

The fifth clue in the revealing of the divine mystery was that Gentiles, outside the Covenant God made with Israel had no rights to any part of Israel’s promised inheritance.  The mission of Paul to the Gentiles was to call them from “darkness to light,” (Acts 22:18) drawn from outside the bounds of Covenant and into the church of the “chosen generation” who were being called “out of darkness and into His marvelous light” (I Pet. 2:9, 10).  The transformation of Gentile believers was that “you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus who rescues us from the wrath to come” (I Thess. 1:9, 10).



The divine mystery was being revealed through a “chosen generation” of people.



CLUE #6

The sixth clue in the revealing of the divine mystery was that in Pauline writings themselves, when careful attention is given to Paul’s use of pronouns, the audience becomes clear.  



What some scholars refer to as the Jewish “we” and the Gentile “you” is evidenced in the distinction made between them: “You” (Gentiles) had “turned to God” for the purpose of waiting for the coming of Christ to rescue “us” (Israel) from the impending day of wrath (I Thess. 1:9; Rom. 2:5; Matt. 3:7, 10-12).  The use of the Jewish “we” and the Gentile “you” also found in Colossians 2:13-17 reveals the importance of this distinction:



And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all tresspases, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us.  And He has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross...So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.



Had the apostle Paul been simply addressing those exiles from the “house of Israel” and the “house of Judah” the “you” and “us” of would have been wholly unnecessary.  Why so?  Because both the “house of Israel” and the “house of Judah” were likewise amenable to “the law” and the admonition would have applied to both.  Notice the change of pronouns in the forgiveness that had been extended to “you” (Gentiles) and the “handwriting of requirements” that was against “us” (Israel).  Never were people from “all the nations” amenable to the terms of the Old Covenant and therefore, the distinction is made abundantly clear.



The divine mystery was revealed by the very language used by inspiration to describe the distinctions that existed between Jew and Gentile and how grace was bringing them together for God’s glory.



IMPLICATIONS OF THE DIVINE MYSTERY

The magnitude of the revelation of God’s mystery, revealed in the first century, is often overlooked by many today who underestimate the importance of the unity only God could have brought about.  The promises made to the “house of Israel” and to the “house of Judah” of an “everlasting covenant” (Jer. 31:31; Ezek. 37:26), in their covenant “land,” was inclusive in that “salvation has come to the Gentiles” (Rom. 11:11; Acts 28:28).  The mystery of Gentile inclusion was that they had been grafted into Israel’s “root” (Rom. 11:16), and “became a partaker with them” (Rom. 11:17) of all that God had promised to His Covenant people (Rom. 9:4, 5).  Israel’s “adoption as sons” became their “adoption as sons.”  Israel’s “glory” became their “glory.”  Israel’s “covenants” became their “covenants.”  Israel’s “promises” became their “promises.”



The powerful implications of this divine mystery forever changed the course of history.  During the “last days” (Joel 2:28-32; Acts 2:17) of the Old Covenant “age” (Matt. 24:3; 28:20), from the day of Pentecost onward, the prophecy of Isaiah came to pass:



Now it will come about that in the last days the mountain of the house of the Lord will be established as the chief of the mountains, and will be raised above the hills; and all nations will stream to it.  And many peoples will come and say, ‘Come let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that He may teach us concerning His ways and that we may walk in His paths.’  For the law will go forth from Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.  He will judge between nations and will render decisions for many peoples (Isa. 2:2-4).



With the arrival of the promised “new heavens and a new earth” (Isa. 65:17; 66:22; II Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1) at the end of the age, the flow of God’s grace and mercy forevermore continues.  From the brilliance of the glorious New Jerusalem, “the nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.  In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life” (Rev. 21:24-27).



The divine mystery of Jew and Gentiles being gathered together as fellow heirs had been revealed at last!



[BY LARRY SIEGLE]


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## Lowjack

gemcgrew said:


> Do you believe that all physical descendents of Abraham will be saved?



Yes , that is the Covenant !
All Israel Will Be Saved

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”[g]

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 11.


----------



## rjcruiser

gemcgrew said:


> Do you believe that all physical descendents of Abraham will be saved?



No...there are many Jews in scripture that did not follow God and worshipped idols. They are not experiencing eternity with Christ.


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## Lowjack

rjcruiser said:


> No...there are many Jews in scripture that did not follow God and worshipped idols. They are not experiencing eternity with Christ.



So Glad you are not God


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## Lowjack

‎11 Shevat 

On this day in 1601, Hebrew books that had been confiscated by Church authorities were burned in Rome. This was an unfortunate theme throughout the Middle Ages: In 1592, Pope Clement VIII had condemned the Talmud and other Hebrew writings as "obscene," "blasphemous" and "abominable" -- and ordered them all seized and burned. Centuries earlier, Pope Gregory IX persuaded French King Louis IX to burn some 10,000 copies of the Talmud (24 wagon loads) in Paris. As late as 1553, Cardinal Peter Caraffa (the future Pope Paul IV) ordered copies of the Talmud burned in the Papal States and across Italy. Yet despite all attempts to extinguish our faith, the light of Torah shines brightly till today.

Yahrtzeit of Rabbi Noah Weinberg, the founder and dean of Aish HaTorah. Rabbi Weinberg is widely regarded as the "father of the baal teshuva movement" that has profoundly transformed the Jewish people and the world. He began Aish HaTorah in 1974 with five students in a small apartment in Jerusalem's Old City. Under his tutelage, Aish HaTorah grew to branches on five continents with innovative educational programs like the Discovery Seminar, Jerusalem Fellowships leadership program, Hasbara Fellowships for Israel activism, HonestReporting.com, and of course, Aish.com. His warmth, wit, extraordinary wisdom, sense of responsibility, positive message and love for all people helped tens of thousands get more meaning out of life and experience a relationship with God. Much of his wisdom is encapsulated in the widely-circulated tape series, "48 Ways to Wisdom."


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## rjcruiser

Lowjack said:


> So Glad you are not God





There are many examples LJ.  From the time in the desert where 1/3rd of the camp of Israel was swallowed up by the earth....to some of the Kings of the northern Kingdom that killed priests and prophets.

How do you reason/justify these people that hated God somehow spend eternity with Him by their faith in Christ?


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## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> No...there are many Jews in scripture that did not follow God and worshipped idols. They are not experiencing eternity with Christ.


Agreed. I must boldly proclaim that ALL promises of God have already been fulfilled in Christ. Apart from Christ, there are no blessings or favored status. "For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us."

The only Jew is one who is circumcised of the heart, in Christ. This is inward, not outward. These are spirtual descendants, not physical descendants. "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."


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## barryl

Extra, Extra read all about it in Romans Ch. 9. Good post GEM !!


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## barryl

barryl said:


> Extra, Extra read all about it in Romans Ch. 9. Good post GEM !!


Circumcision of the heart Col. 2:11


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## formula1

*Re:*

Romans 9  anc Colossians 2:11 compliments Galatians 3 very well.  Thanks for the references.


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## Artfuldodger

Romans Chapter 9 deals with God and election. Did God not Blind the Jews? Being part of his Elect, will he not lift this blindness from them as in chapter 11? Why is chapter 11 still talking about Jews and Gentiles? Until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. I guess it would depend on if this fulness of the Gentiles has happened already or is in the future as to when the blindness will be lifted. God might still be playing the Potter. 
What are some verses that tell us if the fulness of the Gentiles has already happened?


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## Lowjack

rjcruiser said:


> There are many examples LJ.  From the time in the desert where 1/3rd of the camp of Israel was swallowed up by the earth....to some of the Kings of the northern Kingdom that killed priests and prophets.
> 
> How do you reason/justify these people that hated God somehow spend eternity with Him by their faith in Christ?



It is questionable whether those swallowed by the earth in the dessert were all Israelis or part of the company that left egypt with the Israelis , the fact that they build an egyptian god a bull of gold , tells me they might have being egyptians or perhaps a mixture of both Israelis who had married egyptians , read about the two Egyptian Priests that try to corrupt Jews in that Journey Yanes and HAnes ? What makes you think that only those who believe in Christ were saved ? G-d is the Saviour Isaiah chapter 43, G-d decides who is saved and who is not " I will save whom I will save" G-d Forgives all sins"G-d Is love "G-d saves by grace" (Unmeritted favor)G-d sent Christ to Hades to save the dead Judas chapter 1. So what makes you think he can't save whom he wants to save ? What makes you so specials that he shoud forgive you and not others ? That kind of Judgement can land you right where you have struggled not to be or go. IMO


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## gemcgrew

Lowjack, do you believe that there are promises that belong to you and not to the Gentile believer?


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## Artfuldodger

The fullness of Gentiles. When will it happen? I hope it hasn't already happened and God has his quota of Gentiles. If the Church is Israel, why is there the distinction in Romans between the two?
Israel's eyes were blinded, the eyes of the Church was enlightened.
The Church is made up of jews and Gentiles.


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## Lowjack

gemcgrew said:


> Lowjack, do you believe that there are promises that belong to you and not to the Gentile believer?



Yes , The Torah (The Law) was given to Israel only , The Abrahamic Covenant to Israel only , Establishment of the Kingdom is for Israel only.
Use a little common sense , if Christians are transformed and Resurrected in Heavenly Bodies why would they need a Kingdom here on earth ? So the Earthly Kingdom is for the fulfilment of the Abrahamic Covenant, which has never being fulfilled throughout history.


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## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> The fullness of Gentiles. When will it happen? I hope it hasn't already happened and God has his quota of Gentiles. If the Church is Israel, why is there the distinction in Romans between the two?
> Israel's eyes were blinded, the eyes of the Church was enlightened.
> The Church is made up of jews and Gentiles.



We don't believe the end of the era of the gentiles or the fullness of the gentiles , has anythingto do with the number of gentiles who are saved. We believe the end of the gentile or fullness of the gentiles , refers to the time when the gentiles do not occupy Israel or specifically Jerusalem anymore.Which will take place when Masshiach Returns, he will place each person where he belongs , he will also know where each Jew belongs in which tribe.


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## Lowjack

Covenant of the pieces

The Abrahamic covenant found in Genesis 12-17 is known as the Brit bein HaBetarim, the "Covenant Between the Parts" in Hebrew, and is the basis for brit milah (covenant of circumcision) in Judaism. The covenant was for Abraham and his seed, or offspring,[2] both of natural birth and adoption.[3]

In Genesis 12–17 three covenants can be distinguished based on the differing Jahwist, Elohist and Priestly sources.[4] In Genesis 12 and 15, God grants Abram land and descendants but does not place any stipulations (unconditional). By contrast, Gen. 17 contains the covenant of circumcision (conditional).
 To make of Abraham a great nation and to bless those who bless him and curse those who curse him and all peoples on earth would be blessed through Abraham.[Gen 12:1–3]
 To give Abraham's descendants all the land from the river (or wadi) of Egypt to the Euphrates.[Gen 15:18–21] Later, this land came to be referred to as the Promised Land or the Land of Israel, however the land specified by the Abrahamic covenant also includes the modern nations of Saudi Arabia, Oman, Yemen, Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Kuwait, UAE, and several other nations in the Middle East.[citation needed]
 To make Abraham the father of many nations and of many descendants and give "the whole land of Canaan" to his descendants.[Gen 17:2–9]
 Circumcision is to be the permanent sign of this everlasting covenant with Abraham and his male descendants and is known as the brit milah.[Gen 17:9–14]

Covenants in biblical times were often sealed by severing an animal, with the implication that the party who breaks the covenant will suffer a similar fate. In Hebrew, the verb meaning to seal a covenant translates literally as "to cut". It is presumed by Jewish scholars that the removal of the foreskin symbolically represents such a sealing of the covenant.[5]


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## gemcgrew

Lowjack said:


> Use a little common sense



Does common sense tell you that promises belong to a people outside of Christ, His current enemies? Those in Christ possess all promises and all blessings because they are in Christ. You are missing something very important here, Christ.


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## Lowjack

gemcgrew said:


> Does common sense tell you that promises belong to a people outside of Christ, His current enemies? Those in Christ possess all promises and all blessings because they are in Christ. You are missing something very important here, Christ.



Don't Judge me , you have no right.

"You are grafted in" You are adopted and therefore can inherit " those are terminologies yu should be familiar with, If you are Grafted in and if you have being adopted then you have to assume that the natural seed is still alive and well , read Romans 11.

do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports  Vs 8

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!


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## hobbs27

Lowjack said:


> Yes , The Torah (The Law) was given to Israel only , The Abrahamic Covenant to Israel only , Establishment of the Kingdom is for Israel only.



It is this type of attitude that got Jonah in trouble.


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## Lowjack

hobbs27 said:


> It is this type of attitude that got Jonah in trouble.



Not really , Jonah refused to do what G-d told him to do.
I say what the Bible explictley says , you don't want to believe it , that's your right , we are so close to His return we will soon find out in person.


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## Lowjack

His Covenants with Israel are eternal , whether you agree or not.


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## hobbs27

Lowjack said:


> His Covenants with Israel are eternal , whether you agree or not.



Problem is Israel has not been forever.My grandfather was born in 1912, at that time the world hadn't known an Israel for 1,842 years, and it was another 30 some odd years until the US acknowledged Israel as a nation...They have not known peace since they got to be a nation recognized by the USA.


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## Lowjack

hobbs27 said:


> Problem is Israel has not been forever.My grandfather was born in 1912, at that time the world hadn't known an Israel for 1,842 years, and it was another 30 some odd years until the US acknowledged Israel as a nation...They have not known peace since they got to be a nation recognized by the USA.



That's a common believe , but not factual , Israel existed in the diaspora for 2500 years , all over the World and yet managed to keep themselves separate from all other religions and influence , even though a small percentage fell by the side way.
Second there was always a small presence of Jews in Israel , who lived there since 70AD and lived and worked together with the Arabs.
There has not being peace ever for Israelis , not just since 1948, that is one of the main reasons why Israel is G-d's elect , no one has being able to exterminate Israel.
No one will. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFroots.html


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## gemcgrew

Lowjack said:


> Don't Judge me , you have no right.


I do not know you but I have every right to judge your words. Your words are in opposition to Scripture, Christ and His Church. No promise of God's blessing applies in any way, to anyone, apart from Christ. 
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."(John 1:12)

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."(Galatians 3:16)

"They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."(John 8:33-44)


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## Artfuldodger

Is it possible God hardened the Gentiles heart to go against the Jews? This was to make the Jews envious. Gentiles hearts get harder by the day as we come into the "fullness." Jewish hearts will get softer at this point and turn to God. 
If God is controlling every one of our thoughts & beliefs, hardens & softens hearts, why can't he soften the heart of every member of Israel? In other words can't they be part of the "elect?" In being chosen maybe they were also elected and will all come to believe Jesus is their Savior and King.


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## Artfuldodger

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 

What is this "kindness" we must continue in less we be cut off?
We can get grafted "in again"? Does this mean if I quit showing kindness, I could be "cut off" but if I started believing again, I could be "in again"? Amazing what the power of God is!


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## Lowjack

gemcgrew said:


> I do not know you but I have every right to judge your words. Your words are in opposition to Scripture, Christ and His Church. No promise of God's blessing applies in any way, to anyone, apart from Christ.
> "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."(John 1:12)
> 
> "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."(Galatians 3:16)
> 
> "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."(John 8:33-44)



You are totally in Error , you read but you do not grasp what you read , all promises were made to Israel and are perpetual , G-d does not change his mind like men do. You don't even understand what you are reading in Romans 11 , you promote Replacement theology which is a doctrine created in the pit of hades , G-d forgives erroneous doctrine though. What he cares is you understand who your saviour is.


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## Artfuldodger

I've been reading in Romans some more and I don't see how Israel and the Church can be the same. I believe God made promises to Israel that he will keep and he made promises to the Church that he will keep. 
I believe God hardened the Jews hearts to not believe Jesus was the Messiah. I believe he will give them a chance/choice. He said all of Israel will be saved, not the Church. I believe God blinded the Gentiles or let Satan blind the Gentiles to be against the Jews.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: 'The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

"As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now* (some manuscripts do not have "now") receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

The deeper question to me is, and this has to do with any freedom I may have, with all this hardening & softening of the heart, do I have anything whatsoever to to with my Salvation? I totally understand the "Grace of God" but is it something I must ask for or want?

I believe my years spent in the physical Church was to show me that "Man" and his interpretations wasn't the answer, God is.
My time in the physical Church was akin to the Old Testament time. It was a time for God to prove to me "man" wasn't the answer, just as he proved in the Old Testament "man" couldn't do it.  He possibly did this by hardening my heart. I believe that he has now granted me the freedom to see the "err of my ways" and to use the power of the Holy Spirit to see the "Light".
The "Light" is way brighter now. The Scriptures and "Word of God" are much more clearer. I wish God would have softened my heart years earlier. I reckon he's still in control though, as a wade through.


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## gemcgrew

Lowjack said:


> You are totally in Error


Lowjack, you accused me of being arrogant yet it is you who claims to have promises not afforded to those in Christ. In Christ, we have every spiritual blessing. As long as the Mods will allow it, I will continue to point out the spiritual thievery.


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## Artfuldodger

I believe the Bible is way more literal than most. I believe there will be an actual Kingdom of God on Earth. I believe Jesus is a real live Jew in a real live human body as we speak. He will someday come back to Earth to rule in his real live human body. I believe his real human body is a genetic Jewish body. In other words he is a  biological descendant of David through Mary. He is a real man.
This has a lot to do with Israel and the Kingdom to come.


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## GunnSmokeer

Lowjack wrote:
_
Many Jews have issues with Today's Christianity Doctrines , 
such as worshipping a man ,
3 gods,
Praying to saints , 
Not Keeping the law , 
the Torah teaches against these things , how then can someone come and tell me to believe these things and forsake what G-d told us ..._

This is the heart of the answer to the OP's question, and it's spot-on.   I have doubts about calling Christianity, and the Catholic faith in particular, a monothiest religion.  If  Christians wanted to label Jesus as a prophet, like Moses was, working miracles not of his own but by asking God to make things happen, that would be fine. That's still one God.  But Jesus as Lord, sitting in Heaven at the right hand of God, and coming to earth and working miracles of his own power... t hat's two gods in my opinion.     And this "Holy Spirit" thing that completes the Trinity... that's three gods.

Then we have the worship of Saints and other venerated figures. Sorry, no, I think I'll pass.  That's worship of humans. Unless they're really gods, in which case we take another huge step away from monotheism and go back to the standard pagan model of having a collection of gods of various powers, usually with each one being known for some specific area of control.....

One thing I admire about Islam is that they forbid making an image of their prophet Mohammed, so that he cannot be worshipped as a God. They pray directly to God, with no middleman (or so I'm told).


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## Artfuldodger

Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

John 15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.


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## rjcruiser

Lowjack said:


> So what makes you think he can't save whom he wants to save ?



God can save whomever He pleases.  However, His plan for salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.  He has said there is no other way.  God cannot lie.  Therefore, there is only one way.  So...it would be impossible for God to save anyone anyother way.




Lowjack said:


> What makes you so specials that he shoud forgive you and not others ?



Nothing special about me.  God chose me.  God bought me with His blood.  He saved me...despite my inadequacy.  Like Gomer, I sin against my savior...but by His mercy and grace, I am still a child of God.



Lowjack said:


> That kind of Judgement can land you right where you have struggled not to be or go. IMO



Hmm...I think your quote from above is perfect here. 


Lowjack said:


> So Glad you are not God







GunnSmokeer said:


> Lowjack wrote:
> _
> Many Jews have issues with Today's Christianity Doctrines ,
> such as worshipping a man ,
> 3 gods,
> Praying to saints ,
> Not Keeping the law ,
> the Torah teaches against these things , how then can someone come and tell me to believe these things and forsake what G-d told us ..._
> 
> This is the heart of the answer to the OP's question, and it's spot-on.   I have doubts about calling Christianity, and the Catholic faith in particular, a monothiest religion.  If  Christians wanted to label Jesus as a prophet, like Moses was, working miracles not of his own but by asking God to make things happen, that would be fine. That's still one God.  But Jesus as Lord, sitting in Heaven at the right hand of God, and coming to earth and working miracles of his own power... t hat's two gods in my opinion.     And this "Holy Spirit" thing that completes the Trinity... that's three gods.
> 
> Then we have the worship of Saints and other venerated figures. Sorry, no, I think I'll pass.  That's worship of humans. Unless they're really gods, in which case we take another huge step away from monotheism and go back to the standard pagan model of having a collection of gods of various powers, usually with each one being known for some specific area of control.....
> 
> One thing I admire about Islam is that they forbid making an image of their prophet Mohammed, so that he cannot be worshipped as a God. They pray directly to God, with no middleman (or so I'm told).



Wow....so much false information included in this post.  Not sure where to start.

Maybe you should start by studying the doctrine of the Trinity.  There is only one God....Trinity does not teach three Gods.


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## rjcruiser

gemcgrew said:


> Lowjack, you accused me of being arrogant yet it is you who claims to have promises not afforded to those in Christ. In Christ, we have every spiritual blessing. As long as the Mods will allow it, I will continue to point out the spiritual thievery.



gem...don't worry about it too much....it's par for the course....it's his MO.


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## Artfuldodger

What critea does God use as to who he grants Salvation too? I always believed it was "whosoever believeth" but i've been told differently now.


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## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> gem...don't worry about it too much....it's par for the course....it's his MO.


No worries. My foundation is established and secure. I do not confront for my sake.


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## centerpin fan

GunnSmokeer said:


> I have doubts about calling Christianity, and the Catholic faith in particular, a monothiest religion.



Here's the first line of the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.


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## Lowjack

I pray for you all , may G-d open your eyes , you have been brainwashed into catholicism doctrines and you don't see it.

Contradictory teachings , so G-d the father is Jesus or Jesus is G-d , yet only salvation is through Christ , Jews Believe in God the Father of all , the almighty who created heaven and earth the visible and the Invisible , yet they are not saved , because they don't believe in Christ ?? Although Jesus said , "you know not where salvation comes from , salvation comes from the Jews" So If Jesus is the almighty who took flesh and lived as a man named Jesus and died and resurrected , Jews are lost because they don't believe in Jesus but yet believe in God ? So we only have one God according to you guys. Who is 3 Distinct persons? Distinct means differentyet they are different but the same ? The Bible teaches God is a Spirit , so God has another Spirit called the Holy Spirit ? so that makes them 3. So you have in this doctrine God the FAther , God the son and God the Holy Spirit , so that makes 3 distinct gods.

So God the Father is a Spirit but he has another Spirit , who has a son who has another spirit and dies and resurrects in the flesh and it is transformed and exalted into a spiritual body ad yet is to return in a flesh body. This is what catholics teach and you all have accepted this mumble jumbo as fact.

There is One God almighty Creator of all things , who is a Spirit who being the Holy of Holiest is the Holy Spirit the Rhuah Ha Kodesh , who encarnated and made appropiation for our sins, that's it no other mumbo Jumbo about distinct( Different) persons, one and only one.


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## Artfuldodger

Gill's Exposition of the entire bible:
for salvation is of the Jews; the promises of salvation, and of a Saviour, were made to them, when the Gentiles were strangers to them; the means of salvation, and of the knowledge of it, as the word, statutes, and ordinances, were enjoyed by them, when others were ignorant of them; and the Messiah, who is sometimes styled "Salvation", see Genesis 49:18, was not only prophesied of in their books, and promised unto them, but came of them, as well as to them; and the number of the saved ones had been for many hundreds of years, and still was among them; the line of election ran among them, and few among the Gentiles were called and saved, as yet. 

The Messiah was from the Jews. What is a messiah?


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## gemcgrew

Jesus is true Israel.

"When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." (Hosea 11:1)

"When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son." (Matthew 2:14,15) 

Jesus is the true seed.

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." (Galatians 3:7,8)

The promises were not made to natural Israel, but to Abraham and to Christ.

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Galatians 3:16)

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:27-29)

"For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us." (2 Corinthians 1:20)


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> What is a messiah?


http://bibledictionaries.com/messiah.htm


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## hobbs27

Lowjack said:


> Not really , Jonah refused to do what G-d told him to do.
> I say what the Bible explictley says , you don't want to believe it , that's your right , we are so close to His return we will soon find out in person.


Jonah refused to obey God because of his bigotry toward the gentile dogs in Nineveh. Bigotry is rampant in the scriptures on behalf of the Hebrew, it was part of their culture.


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## Artfuldodger

Are we caught in a family feud? I found this article interesting. It's just another viewpoint, not the Gospel. Exerpts follow with the link:
As Jewish believers in Yeshua, we often find ourselves in the middle of a family feud, caught between two brothers who have not found that middle ground of reconciliation. I am talking about my Jewish brothers in the flesh and my Gentile brothers in the faith. This feud is not new.

As early as the first century, Paul scolded the one brother by saying in Romans 2:17-21,
indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God… and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind… you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? 

And with the same intensity Paul then scolded my other brother, and said in Romans 11:18,21,
do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you… for if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 

The majority of Gentile Christian commentators however, interpret the book of Jonah as an 
illustration of the prophet’s anti-Gentile bias as well as a picture of Israel’s own disobedience and exclusive ethnocentricity. The association made between Jonah’s actions and Israel’s character is difficult to accept in light of the fact that the text does not make such a link. In fact, Israel’s name is not even mentioned at all in this book. 

http://www.messianicassociation.org/ezine24-jg.family-feud.htm


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## Artfuldodger

It appears from Paul's writning in Romans that both Jews & Gentiles need to do less boasting and be more humble.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> It appears from Paul's writning in Romans that both Jews & Gentiles need to do less boasting and be more humble.


Not at all. When we boasts, we boast in Christ.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Jonah refused to obey God because of his bigotry toward the gentile dogs in Nineveh. Bigotry is rampant in the scriptures on behalf of the Hebrew, it was part of their culture.



Jonah was a prophet. Is it even possible for a prophet to refuse to obey God? Because if the future is determined, it means that so are one's choices.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Jonah was a prophet. Is it even possible for a prophet to refuse to obey God? Because if the future is determined, it means that so are one's choices.



Seems I remember a story of God killing a prophet once because he had started giving false prophecies.Ill check my notes when I get home unless someone else comes along with the story.
But a prophet is also just a man and capable of disobeying God.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Jonah was a prophet. Is it even possible for a prophet to refuse to obey God? Because if the future is determined, it means that so are one's choices.


"But those things, which God before had showed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled."(Acts 3:18)
God's purpose included Jonah's refusal.


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## hobbs27

hobbs27 said:


> Seems I remember a story of God killing a prophet once because he had started giving false prophecies.Ill check my notes when I get home unless someone else comes along with the story.
> But a prophet is also just a man and capable of disobeying God.



Sorry Art, I haven't found the story I was looking, and with this weather coming in I'll be busy focusing on my work for tomorrow.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Sorry Art, I haven't found the story I was looking, and with this weather coming in I'll be busy focusing on my work for tomorrow.



No problem, i'm hoping it misses us.


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## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Seems I remember a story of God killing a prophet once because he had started giving false prophecies.Ill check my notes when I get home unless someone else comes along with the story.
> But a prophet is also just a man and capable of disobeying God.


1 Kings 13 is the only thing that comes to mind. Not exact match of your memory though.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> 1 Kings 13 is the only thing that comes to mind. Not exact match of your memory though.



Interesting story as to why God killed the Godly prophet and let the lying old prophet live.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary:
Believers are most in danger of being drawn from their duty by plausible pretences of holiness. We may wonder that the wicked prophet went unpunished, while the holy man of God was suddenly and severely punished. What shall we make of this? The judgments of God are beyond our power to fathom; and there is a judgment to come. Nothing can excuse any act of willful disobedience.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Interesting story as to why God killed the Godly prophet and let the lying old prophet live.
> Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary:
> Believers are most in danger of being drawn from their duty by plausible pretences of holiness. We may wonder that the wicked prophet went unpunished, while the holy man of God was suddenly and severely punished. What shall we make of this? The judgments of God are beyond our power to fathom; and there is a judgment to come. Nothing can excuse any act of willful disobedience.


Not sure exactly what he is saying here, other than perhaps that his worldview is unbiblical.


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## hobbs27

Jeremiah 28,
 The prophet Hananiah was killed for lying to the people, and causing a rebellion.


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## Artfuldodger

Is this God hardening the hearts of Gentiles?
Jeremiah 28:14 This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: I will put an iron yoke on the necks of all these nations to make them serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and they will serve him. I will even give him control over the wild animals.'"

In the verse below God tells the prophet Hananiah he is going to kill him. I've got a couple of questions. If he was a prophet, why didn't he see this coming? I would assume that even prophets can only fore tell  only what God wants them too. 
If he was a prophet, then he was a Christian who went astray. In order for a Christian to do this he would have the ability to make his own choices. Even with the abilities of a prophet, he was still a man. At one time he was even a "man of God."
Jeremiah 28:16 Therefore, this is what the LORD says: 'I am about to remove you from the face of the earth. This very year you are going to die, because you have preached rebellion against the LORD.'"


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Not sure exactly what he is saying here, other than perhaps that his worldview is unbiblical.



In this story God killed the Godly prophet and let the lying old prophet live.
I think Matthew Henry was saying, we don't aways understand the ways of God.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Seems I remember a story of God killing a prophet once because he had started giving false prophecies.Ill check my notes when I get home unless someone else comes along with the story.
> But a prophet is also just a man and capable of disobeying God.



I would agree that all men including prophets, priests, and reverends are capable of disobeying God. In the Old Testament God might kill you for doing this. Do you think God would kill a Christian in todays time for such disobedience?


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## hobbs27

St





Artfuldodger said:


> I would agree that all men including prophets, priests, and reverends are capable of disobeying God. In the Old Testament God might kill you for doing this. Do you think God would kill a Christian in todays time for such disobedience?



Yes, but most likely spiritually instead of physically.It would be horrible to know the peace and blessings of the Holy Spirit, and have that taken away.I believe in eternal salvation, but not all of us will partake in the joy of it on this side.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I think Matthew Henry was saying, we don't aways understand the ways of God.


Matthew Henry is saying that the judgements of God are a mystery. I reject that. There is no mystery in that which is revealed.


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## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> St
> 
> Yes, but most likely spiritually instead of physically.It would be horrible to know the peace and blessings of the Holy Spirit, and have that taken away.I believe in eternal salvation, but not all of us will partake in the joy of it on this side.



I think we have left the OP  I apologize for my part.


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## Artfuldodger

Yeah, we kinda left it discussing Gentile hating Jewish prophets. I guess this was to show this dislike has been going on for quite some time. I guess the Jewish/Gentile division  goes both ways.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Yeah, we kinda left it discussing Gentile hating Jewish prophets. I guess this was to show this dislike has been going on for quite some time. I guess the Jewish/Gentile division  goes both ways.



The OT shows us how man fails God, so God chose a good group to demonstrate that when he chose the Hebrew.The prophets that came to deliver the word of God were killed by the Jews that didn't like what they had to say.
Today we live in the NT and we live under grace instead of the law...(we means every living soul of whatever race).We all come short of the glory of God.The fact that Jesus is the way( the only way) convicts people that don't believe and that conviction causes their hearts to hate those that believe in Christ.
While some modern day Christians believe in a dual covenant ; one of law with the Jew and one of grace for everyone else, they cannot back that belief using NT scripture.


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## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> I think we have left the OP  I apologize for my part.



Eventually it happens to every thread.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> The OT shows us how man fails God, so God chose a good group to demonstrate that when he chose the Hebrew.The prophets that came to deliver the word of God were killed by the Jews that didn't like what they had to say.
> Today we live in the NT and we live under grace instead of the law...(we means every living soul of whatever race).We all come short of the glory of God.The fact that Jesus is the way( the only way) convicts people that don't believe and that conviction causes their hearts to hate those that believe in Christ.
> While some modern day Christians believe in a dual covenant ; one of law with the Jew and one of grace for everyone else, they cannot back that belief using NT scripture.



While that may or may not be true, we can't deny that hatred goes both ways. There are just as many Gentiles that hate Jews. Arabs & Jews don't get along too well. Irish Catholics and Protestants are always fighting and they are both Christian groups. It has a lot to do with bias being taught by parents & society. Kinda like black Christians & white Christians in the 30's-60's. 
Atheist Americans and Christian Americans don't hate each other. We don't agree but i wouldn't call it hatred. 
How are the Hutu and Tutsi getting along these days?


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## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> Yeah, we kinda left it discussing Gentile hating Jewish prophets. I guess this was to show this dislike has been going on for quite some time. I guess the Jewish/Gentile division  goes both ways.



It is not necessarily hate it is interpretation of the Torah , in the case of Jonah he was perhaps following Torah that says, The Torah states, “Moses has commanded us the Torah, an inheritance for the community of Jacob” (Deuteronomy 33:4). Deeming this inheritance the exclusive property of Jews, the sages prohibited gentiles from learning Torah and Jews from teaching it to them. A strident prohibition was also expressed in the Zohar.And Even Yeshua adhered to this belief and claim , calling gentiles dogs ; Matthew 15:22-28 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.” Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.” “Yes, Lord,” she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.


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## Artfuldodger

Lowjack said:


> It is not necessarily hate it is interpretation of the Torah , in the case of Jonah he was perhaps following Torah that says, The Torah states, “Moses has commanded us the Torah, an inheritance for the community of Jacob” (Deuteronomy 33:4). Deeming this inheritance the exclusive property of Jews, the sages prohibited gentiles from learning Torah and Jews from teaching it to them. A strident prohibition was also expressed in the Zohar.And Even Yeshua adhered to this belief and claim , calling gentiles dogs ; Matthew 15:22-28 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.” Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.” “Yes, Lord,” she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.



That's not the hatred i'm talking about. I'm referring to hatred taught out of ignorance. I don't believe Jonah had a hatred for the people he was to preach to. I'm sure his belief in the Torah prevented him from fulfilling his command.
In the story above Jesus made a choice to have mercy on the Gentile after he said he wasn't suppose to. He would make a good business manager. Knowing when to make good choices beyond the rules/law.


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## formula1

*Re:*

A great story of the dogs that hear and the sheep who don't! Simply grateful for the One who is full of Grace and Truth from above and willingly gave to those who would hear, dogs and sheep alike!


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## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> That's not the hatred i'm talking about. I'm referring to hatred taught out of ignorance. I don't believe Jonah had a hatred for the people he was to preach to. I'm sure his belief in the Torah prevented him from fulfilling his command.
> In the story above Jesus made a choice to have mercy on the Gentile after he said he wasn't suppose to. He would make a good business manager. Knowing when to make good choices beyond the rules/law.



Perhaps what you foresee as hatred is also founded on facts of how so called "Christianity" have treated Jews.


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## Lowjack

Jews don't see the differences between Nazis and Evangelicals who think G-d Bless the Gentiles and took away their promises , or Palestinians who want Israel's land.http://alamoministries.com/content/english/Antichrist/nazigallery/photogallery.html


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## Lowjack

Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. All the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel can be divided into two camps: either the church is a continuation of Israel (replacement/covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are “spiritualized” or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?

The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture (Ephesians 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God's program during these past 2000 years of dispersion.

After the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the second coming of the Messiah. Then, when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel which survives the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1-5).

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a premillennial/dispensational understanding of God's plan for Israel. Even so, the strongest support for premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says six times that Christ's kingdom will last 1000 years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God's plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel and will one day restore Israel to His intended role as the nation He has chosen (Romans 11).


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## hobbs27

Wow.


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## gemcgrew

Lowjack, I reject replacement theology and dispensationalism. If you place me in one of those camps, you are going to embarrass yourself. I am a true Jew. I am from the seed of Abraham. I follow Jesus, Messiah of Israel. All promises are fulfilled in Christ.
No man has ever been saved by his pedigree.


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## gemcgrew

Lowjack said:


> Forgive me but if you are not An Israeli Jew born from an Israeli Father and mother so you are not from Abraham natural seed , Just that statement makes you a replacement theology follower , perhaps you are confused ?


Perhaps you are not reading my post. Perhaps your signature is your issue. I never said that the Church replaced Israel. 
"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world."(Galatians 6:14)

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"(1 Peter 2:9)

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."(Romans 9:6-8)

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."(Galatians 3:29)

The Israel of God is the whole body of God’s elect. All Israel shall be saved.


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## hobbs27

This appears to be true from what research and scripture I study.


From:http://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/1991_jordan_future-israel.html

      WHO WERE THE JEWS

_ Most Christians think of the Jews as a race of people descended from Abraham. In this section of this essay I want to call this assumption into question, by looking at the history of Israel in the Old Testament. When God called Abraham and made him a priest to the gentile nations, He commanded him to use the sign of circumcision to mark out the Hewbrews from the other nations. Abraham's household at this time included at least 318 fighting men (Gen. 14:14), as well as their wives and children, possibly many more servants. All of these men were circumcised. We see these servants mentioned in the book of Genesis several times (Gen.26:19ff.; 32:16), and when Jacob went down to sojourn in Egypt, so many people went with him that he had to be given the whole land of Goshen to dwell in. Genesis 46 provides a list of only 70 actual blood descendants of Abraham who went into Egypt. Thus, from the very beginning, the Israelites were defined by covenant, not by blood and race.

      The same was true for each of the tribes within Israel. A Levite was not necessarily a blood descendant of Levi, but more likely was a descendant of one of the patriarchs' servants who was a part of Levi's company. Only a small percentage of Levites would actually have been descendants of Levi.

      These several thousand people became over two million by the time of the Exodus 215 years later. Only a small percentage of the people who came out of Egypt had any racial connection with Abraham. Moreover, added to the company of Israel at this time was a vast mixed multitude, many of whom became circumcised members of the nation, and therefore members of individual tribes as well.

      There was another admixture of converts in the time of David and Solomon. Think of Uriah the Hittite, for example. Then again, the book of Esther tells us that during and after the Exile many more gentiles became Jews(Esth. 8:17).

      What this means is that very few Jews at the time of Christ had any of Abraham's blood in them. They were a nation formed by covenant, not a race formed by blood. To be sure, Jesus Himself was a true blood descendant of Abraham, and His genealogy is important for theological reasons, but few other Jews could trace their genealogy to Abraham. What I seek to establish by this survey is this: With the passing away of the Old Covenant, there is no longer any such thing as a Jew in the Biblical sense, unless by "True Jews" we mean Christians. There is no covenant, and therefore there is no nation, no "race."

      What, then, are modern Jews? Modern Jews are people who choose to think of themselves as descendants of Israel. Most modern Jews are not semites, but are descended form Eastern European tribes that converted to Judaism in the middle ages. Arthur Koestler's 'The Thirteenth Tribe' provides much information about this. Modern Jews do not worship the God of the Old Testament. They are either secular humanists, or else Talmudists, and the Talmud has no more relation to the Old Testament than does the Quran or the Book of Mormon. Like the Quran and the Book of Mormon, the Talmud and Mishnah are designed to add to and reinterpret the Old Testament in such a way as to obliterate completely the revelation of God through Jesus Christ (compare Luke 24:27). The "God" of Judaism is as much a fiction as the "God" of Islam and the "God" of Mormonism.

      It is entirely possible that there is not one drop of Abraham's blood in any modern Jew. Of the tiny percentage of Israel that had any of Abraham's blood in the first century, it is possible that all such either became Christians or were slain in the Jewish War of A.D. 70. No one can know for sure about something like this, and it does not matter in the slightest.

      Modern Jews are a separate nation of people with a self-identity, spread out among many other nations. The closest analogy to them are the Gypsies. The only difference between Modern Jews and Gypsies is that the Modern Jews claim to have a relation to the Biblical Jews, a claim I maintain is false._


----------



## barryl

Food  For Thought, Romans Ch. 9: 1-13


----------



## Lowjack

hobbs27 said:


> This appears to be true from what research and scripture I study.
> 
> 
> From:http://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/1991_jordan_future-israel.html
> 
> WHO WERE THE JEWS
> 
> _ Most Christians think of the Jews as a race of people descended from Abraham. In this section of this essay I want to call this assumption into question, by looking at the history of Israel in the Old Testament. When God called Abraham and made him a priest to the gentile nations, He commanded him to use the sign of circumcision to mark out the Hewbrews from the other nations. Abraham's household at this time included at least 318 fighting men (Gen. 14:14), as well as their wives and children, possibly many more servants. All of these men were circumcised. We see these servants mentioned in the book of Genesis several times (Gen.26:19ff.; 32:16), and when Jacob went down to sojourn in Egypt, so many people went with him that he had to be given the whole land of Goshen to dwell in. Genesis 46 provides a list of only 70 actual blood descendants of Abraham who went into Egypt. Thus, from the very beginning, the Israelites were defined by covenant, not by blood and race.
> 
> The same was true for each of the tribes within Israel. A Levite was not necessarily a blood descendant of Levi, but more likely was a descendant of one of the patriarchs' servants who was a part of Levi's company. Only a small percentage of Levites would actually have been descendants of Levi.
> 
> These several thousand people became over two million by the time of the Exodus 215 years later. Only a small percentage of the people who came out of Egypt had any racial connection with Abraham. Moreover, added to the company of Israel at this time was a vast mixed multitude, many of whom became circumcised members of the nation, and therefore members of individual tribes as well.
> 
> There was another admixture of converts in the time of David and Solomon. Think of Uriah the Hittite, for example. Then again, the book of Esther tells us that during and after the Exile many more gentiles became Jews(Esth. 8:17).
> 
> What this means is that very few Jews at the time of Christ had any of Abraham's blood in them. They were a nation formed by covenant, not a race formed by blood. To be sure, Jesus Himself was a true blood descendant of Abraham, and His genealogy is important for theological reasons, but few other Jews could trace their genealogy to Abraham. What I seek to establish by this survey is this: With the passing away of the Old Covenant, there is no longer any such thing as a Jew in the Biblical sense, unless by "True Jews" we mean Christians. There is no covenant, and therefore there is no nation, no "race."
> 
> What, then, are modern Jews? Modern Jews are people who choose to think of themselves as descendants of Israel. Most modern Jews are not semites, but are descended form Eastern European tribes that converted to Judaism in the middle ages. Arthur Koestler's 'The Thirteenth Tribe' provides much information about this. Modern Jews do not worship the God of the Old Testament. They are either secular humanists, or else Talmudists, and the Talmud has no more relation to the Old Testament than does the Quran or the Book of Mormon. Like the Quran and the Book of Mormon, the Talmud and Mishnah are designed to add to and reinterpret the Old Testament in such a way as to obliterate completely the revelation of God through Jesus Christ (compare Luke 24:27). The "God" of Judaism is as much a fiction as the "God" of Islam and the "God" of Mormonism.
> 
> It is entirely possible that there is not one drop of Abraham's blood in any modern Jew. Of the tiny percentage of Israel that had any of Abraham's blood in the first century, it is possible that all such either became Christians or were slain in the Jewish War of A.D. 70. No one can know for sure about something like this, and it does not matter in the slightest.
> 
> Modern Jews are a separate nation of people with a self-identity, spread out among many other nations. The closest analogy to them are the Gypsies. The only difference between Modern Jews and Gypsies is that the Modern Jews claim to have a relation to the Biblical Jews, a claim I maintain is false._



Modern Jews are a separate nation of people with a self-identity, spread out among many other nations. The closest analogy to them are the Gypsies. The only difference between Modern Jews and Gypsies is that the Modern Jews claim to have a relation to the Biblical Jews, a claim I maintain is false. And I maintain the writer doesn't know what he is talking about , Recent DNA proves this statement is false . Todays Jews are the descendants of the Patriarchs , which God miraculously has kept unto himself.The discovery of several Genes ven Pin points those who descend from Aaron called the "Cohenim Gene".This article is KKK


----------



## Lowjack

barryl said:


> Food  For Thought, Romans Ch. 9: 1-13




Romans 9:1-13

New American Standard Bible (NASB)


Solicitude for Israel

9 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could [a]wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is *the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed [c]forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s [d]descendants, but: “[e]through Isaac your [f]descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as [g]descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would [h]stand, not because of works but [j]because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
9 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could [a]wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed [c]forever. Amen.


The sons of Ishmael are not of Israel son of Abraham , and some of Yacovs with Concubines are not of Israel , only those through Isaac are , some people misinterpret these verses.*


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## Artfuldodger

Lowjack said:


> Romans 9:1-13
> 
> The sons of Ishmael are not of Israel son of Abraham , and some of Yacovs with Concubines are not of Israel , only those through Isaac are , some people misinterpret these verses.



Maybe i'm missing your belief in who will inherit the "Kingdom of God." Do you believe every Jew who is a descendant of Abraham will be guaranteed a place in Heaven by birthright alone?
I personally find that hard to believe, if in fact that is your belief. That's almost as weird (to me personally) as election. Are there no Atheist Jews who won't be saved? Jews who have converted to Kabbalah?


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## Artfuldodger

I don't believe every person born from  the natural seed of Abraham to be "the children of the promise" in Romans. At least not all of them. Were they not born "in the flesh" or "of the flesh?" Wasn't Jesus the only "man" born "of the flesh" who received by his own free will the position of a "man" who was "without sin & perfect?"
The "children of the promise" can include "children of the covenant" but it's not limited to just them. I was promised something too from God and i'm a Gentile. I don't want you to think i'm trying to diminish  your special place between you as a Jew & God, because I believe it is "something different" but I too have a promise.
God tells Abraham  "thou shalt be a father of many nations" and  that is where my adoption comes from. Hope to see you in Heaven "brother in Abraham". Notice I said "Hope?" "Blessed Hope for a humble Gentile like me."


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you believe every Jew who is a descendant of Abraham will be guaranteed a place in Heaven by birthright alone?


"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature."(Galatians 6:15)

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."(2 Corinthians 5:17)


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## hobbs27

Jesus told us of a certain rich man that was a Jew by birth that opened his eyes in heII.It is not hatred to witness Christ to someone of the Jewish faith, but an argument could be made that it is hatred to deny Christ (The Way), to anyone because of who they were born to.


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## formula1

*Re:*

Natural birth yields natural life,  Spirit birth yields spiritual life, something that Jesus new and Nicodemus ( a ruler of the Jews) came seeking truth in the night found.  It cannot be more simple!

John 3 
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.  16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”


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## Lowjack

Don't think you quite understand what a covenant is , or what the covenant says or who it was made with and for, or even understand who wrote what you call bible and for whom it was written , you accept what is convenient for you and discard the rest such as :And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. What part of all of Israel don't you understand ? or is it all of Israel to which I think should be , because there Israelis who are sinners , I got news for you so are you and Me.So we are all saved by Grace and Mercy ,
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?[/U](What should be the reward for Israel if G-d blinded them on purpose to save you ?) 
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead(salvation and resurrection from the dead same as Christians)

16 For if the firstfruit be holy( Jews), the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy(Israel), so are the branches
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye(Gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.


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## Artfuldodger

If i believed in election I would say that every Jew will eventually profess Jesus as their Savior. That would be an easy way out. It would be hard to provoke someone to jealously without free will. So much for that idea. 
Now what about the dead Jews? What about the dead Jews killed by God for disobedience? 
I've always been taught that every man has to believe Jesus died for their sins, Jews, Gentiles, Hindus, Muslims, etc. I'm not saying this is correct, having never heard an opposing view before conversing with you on this forum. I must say it is interesting. I must say, and with no disrespect, that you have the Bible verses to back up your beliefs just like the Election believers. I guess when you believe something way different from the mainstream believers of your area, you'd better have a strong arsenal of verses for a defense. I commend you on your knowledge and belief convictions.
I will give it strong considerations.


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## hobbs27

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.


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## Lowjack

hobbs27 said:


> Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.



There is no difference, both are sinners , Christ died for all but the jew has a double blessing ,The Covenant of Old and the covenant of new,
One Question do you believe in the vicarious washing of sin by blood ?
Both Covenants are blood covenants , The Abrahamic covenant is a blood covenant , The New Covenant is a blood covenant, Christ Appropiation of his blood was for the whole world, or do you believe only those who belief as you do and even perhaps only those  who go to your church are saved ? or do you believe that Christ's sacrifice covers all peoples ?


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## Artfuldodger

Christ Appropiation of his blood was for the whole world.

And of course that brings up, if Christ died for the whole world, why will some people not go to Heaven? God's grace of course, but what must the people of the whole world do? I believe there is a requirement from those people of the world but some Christians say no there isn't. I guess when the heaven and earth disappear, God will give grace to whoever he wants.


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## Artfuldodger

Question for Lowjack. Why are you a Messianic Jew if all Jews will be saved? Do you or should we spread the story of Jesus to Orthodox Jews?


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> God will give grace to whoever he wants.


"And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."(Mark 13:20)

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."(John 6:37)

"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."(John 6:65)

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."(Revelation 5:9-10)


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## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> Question for Lowjack. Why are you a Messianic Jew if all Jews will be saved? Do you or should we spread the story of Jesus to Orthodox Jews?



We believe in the resurrection of the dead , we believe such an event will be for all of Israel , every Israelite that has ever lived will be raised for a determined amount of years will come back in the flesh , those of us who believe in the Messiah believe those that are in Messiah will resurrect differently transformed and with an eternal body , while those Isralites that died under the Abrahamic covenant will have to wait 1000 years to be transformed , as Romans 11 says , "What shall be their reward for being blinded by G-d himself , but resurrection from the dead"So all of Israel will be saved as promised by G-d but not necessarily receive all the rewards awaiting those who believe in the Messiah.My ministry for 40 years have being with Jews.

THE RESURRECTION OF ALL OF ISRAEL:
The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”

4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath[a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.
 (Verse 11 Shows that Israel'e hope for salvation was gone , they knew they had not acquire it as they were blinded, but G-d had preserve their souls for the resurrection and second chance)
11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”Ezequiel 37;4


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## Lowjack

KJV says :1 

 ¶ Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts, And that's what the Hebrew Book of Prophets say the whole house of Israel.Jesus In Matthew 19;28 hinted to this , when he said to the apostles; "And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."Very hard to Judge on the 12 tribes that have mostly dissapeared ,unless they are resurrected, We also see in revelation the 24 Elders , referring to the 12 Patriarchs and the 12 Apostles sitting in thrones ruling with the Messiah.


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## Artfuldodger

I do think there is more to our resurrection in a body of "flesh & bones"(no blood) than some people think. There is a lot we don't fully understand about all the resurrections and the various judgements. I don't believe it's as cut & dry as some believe.


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## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> I do think there is more to our resurrection in a body of "flesh & bones"(no blood) than some people think. There is a lot we don't fully understand about all the resurrections and the various judgements. I don't believe it's as cut & dry as some believe.



That is Correct !


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## Lowjack

gemcgrew said:


> "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."(Mark 13:20)
> 
> "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."(John 6:37)
> 
> "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."(John 6:65)
> 
> "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."(Revelation 5:9-10)



Verse 10 is very interesting , most preachers preach ,Heaven as our home yet there are many evidences that earth will be our home in eternity , first in teh Kingdom then a New heaven and a New Earth and G-d dwelling with us in it.

The Jewish sages teach once you die you go to a place for the dead known as Paradise not heaven. Peter and Paul said Yeshuah went there and preached to the dead , then he took paradise and them into the heavenlies not necessarily heaven where G-d dwells.???????


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## hobbs27

Lowjack said:


> There is no difference, both are sinners , Christ died for all but the jew has a double blessing ,The Covenant of Old and the covenant of new,
> One Question do you believe in the vicarious washing of sin by blood ?


No.I believe the washing of sin by blood is limited to whosoever will.




Lowjack said:


> Both Covenants are blood covenants , The Abrahamic covenant is a blood covenant , The New Covenant is a blood covenant, Christ Appropiation of his blood was for the whole world, or do you believe only those who belief as you do and even perhaps only those  who go to your church are saved ? or do you believe that Christ's sacrifice covers all peoples ?



I agree both covenants are blood covenants, what I don't understand is if the Jew believes they are still bound by the Old Covenant, why are they no longer giving animal sacrifice?
My belief is that there are Church goers, deacons and preachers in Churches today that have never fully accepted Christ and they are paving a way to eternal he11.I believe there are people that may have never set foot in a Church but have somewhere in their life recieved and heard the Gospel and accepted Christ are are sealed in the book of life.
 I believe that Christ is God, and the only way to the Father is through the Son, and the Holy Spirit will ***** the hearts of those that have the faith and know in their hearts that Jesus died for them, and that they must repent and be baptized in the fire to become a part of the kingdom of heaven.
 I also believe that since this was the way spoken of in the Bible to the Jew, that there is no difference in the Jew and the Gentile as to the way!


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## Lowjack

I agree both covenants are blood covenants, what I don't understand is if the Jew believes they are still bound by the Old Covenant, why are they no longer giving animal sacrifice?

There are requirements for the blood sacrifices , first one is it must be in the temple , as you know the temple was destroyed in 70AD as prophecied , so no sacrifice can be done according to the levitical law, but it is also prophecied that the sacrifices will be done again , even through the Kingdom if we carefully read , we can see that G-d's law will be the law of Kingdom . Must Gentiles have being taught the law was done away with , mostly Paul is who says that , no other Apostle that walked and lived with Jesus ever said that , even Jesus verified the Law would not be done away with . Christians believe Jesus sacrifice replaced the animal sacrifices, and there are many problems to that within Hebrew Theology , because Jesus did not died according to the Law of Moses or levitical Law , Paul is the only one that recognizes that and says He died according to a Higher order of sacrifices , that of Melchisedek; I understand this discussion is getting deep and there is a lot of meat there that might choke the neophite who is still drinking spiritual milk.

Hebrews 6; 13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.”[d] 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might[e] have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.

19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek


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## hobbs27

Lowjack said:


> There are requirements for the blood sacrifices , first one is it must be in the temple , as you know the temple was destroyed in 70AD as prophecied , so no sacrifice can be done according to the levitical law,



The above answers my question, thank you.As we both see God left the Jew with no way to worship in the law, but gave us all grace in the sacrifice of the Lamb with no blemish. Praise be to God! A perfect sacrifice has been made!


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## Lowjack

hobbs27 said:


> The above answers my question, thank you.As we both see God left the Jew with no way to worship in the law, but gave us all grace in the sacrifice of the Lamb with no blemish. Praise be to God! A perfect sacrifice has been made!



There are several passages in the Old Testament that clearly indicate animal sacrifice will be re-instituted during the millennial kingdom. Some passages mention it in passing as the topic of the millennial kingdom is discussed, passages like Isaiah 56:6-8; Zechariah 14:16; and Jeremiah 33:15-18.

The passage that is the most extensive, giving the greatest detail, is Ezekiel 43:18-46:24. It should be noted that this is part of a greater passage dealing with the millennial kingdom, a passage that begins with Ezekiel 40. In Ezekiel 40, the Lord begins to give details of the temple that will exist during the millennial kingdom, a temple that dwarfs all other temples previously built, even Herod’s temple that was quite large, which existed during the earthly ministry of Christ.


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## hobbs27

Hebrews 10:16 THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAITH THE LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS WILL I WRITE THEM;
17 AND THEIR SINS AND INIQUITIES WILL I REMEMBER NO MORE.
18 NOW where remission of these is,there is no more offering for sin.

A little study on the fulfilled prophecy of ezekial and ezekials temple...mind you the term millennial is not mentioned in any of the scripture you provided.


http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/Alvisezekiel.pdf


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## Lowjack

hobbs27 said:


> Hebrews 10:16 THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAITH THE LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS WILL I WRITE THEM;
> 17 AND THEIR SINS AND INIQUITIES WILL I REMEMBER NO MORE.
> 18 NOW where remission of these is,there is no more offering for sin.
> 
> A little study on the fulfilled prophecy of ezekial and ezekials temple...mind you the term millennial is not mentioned in any of the scripture you provided.
> 
> 
> http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/Alvisezekiel.pdf



But it is found in NT.


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## hobbs27

Lowjack said:


> But it is found in NT.



Not since the Parousia.Not since we recieved the new heaven and the new earth, No longer is animal sacrifice needed to cover sin, not now, not ever again.
Christ is Lord and King of Kings!


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## Artfuldodger

Lowjack said:


> But it is found in NT.



What exactly does that mean? Has the "New Covenant" not been made yet?
Jeremiah31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.
(have ya'll did that yet?)
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, saith the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people; 
(will ya'll please hurry up and let God do this)
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." Matthew 23:37-39 
(God is waiting on ya'll before he sends Jesus back)
34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: 'Know the LORD'; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more. 
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go out straight forward unto the hill Gareb, and shall turn about unto Goah. 
(I don't believe this happened in 70AC)
Acts 1:6: "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" 
(I'm not sure when it happened, but the Jews lost their land) 
Hebrews 12:24 And to Yeshua the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 
(Yep, god gave ya'll your free-will back and he's waiting on the Jews to let him know when they are ready for the new covenant before he sends Jesus back.)


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## Artfuldodger

1 Cor 10:32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God,
(three separate groups)
The church did not replace Israel, but came into existence as a new and third entity comprised of both Jews and Gentiles and distinct from each. 
I don't know all I know about this subject but i'm willing to learn.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't know all I know about this subject but i'm willing to learn.



It sounds like you have learned quite a bit.You're a critical thinker and that's good, you won't be led down the wrong track by some man.Lowjack a few posts back mentioned "the meat".He is well studied in the word, and it takes more than just study in the word, it's a study of languages, a study of empires, a study of rulers, a study of cultures, and most importantly allowing the Holy Spirit to be the light on the darkness of mysteries.
 Men have dedicated lifetimes feeding off the Word of God, unravelling mysteries, seeking and finding little treasures that have seemed hidden and all the sudden jump out and bless you.The Word of God is a great thing, but living this life to the fullest for Christ and enjoying the Kingdom in which He rules, and spreading that joy to others is the greatest.I'm so happy God allows us to share His word and the Good News to the world.
 Im so glad that the Sacrifice of Gods only begotten Son was a sacrifice that will cover whosoever wills sin, Hebrew and Gentile alike.


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