# The End



## michael777 (Jul 15, 2011)

Deleted


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## Bama4me (Jul 15, 2011)

Personally, my belief is that most of the events of Revelation are in the past... not the present nor the future.  This belief is based upon the purpose of the book - to provide hope and confort to the seven churches of Asia.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 16, 2011)

Bama4me said:


> Personally, my belief is that most of the events of Revelation are in the past... not the present nor the future.  This belief is based upon the purpose of the book - to provide hope and confort to the seven churches of Asia.



Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
me too.  we in the minority i think.  Shhhhhhhhhhhhh


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## gordon 2 (Jul 16, 2011)

Then I'm in the minority, as well....


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## formula1 (Jul 16, 2011)

*Re:*

And so am I...The minority is growing.  I knew there was a reason I liked you guys.

Rev 1:1 (part) "The revelation of Jesus Christ" (the sole purpose of this book). If one gets this, the entire book comes alive in the Holy Spirit.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 16, 2011)

Proud member of the minority reporting in.

I would just add that the identity of "the beast" changes with the headlines.  This article claims he's Abbas.  During the first Gulf War, everybody and their grandmothers swore it was Saddam Hussein.


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## Paymaster (Jul 16, 2011)

Minority member as well!


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## Tim L (Jul 16, 2011)

Same here; I also think John is referring to the early church and the Roman Empire; Roman authorities, etc.   But I remember as a child, attending a revival one night when the preacher talked about when that beast is going to rise up out of the sea and how we don't want to be around when it does; was some pretty scary stuff..


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## Bama4me (Jul 16, 2011)

Tim L said:


> Same here; I also think John is referring to the early church and the Roman Empire; Roman authorities, etc.   But I remember as a child, attending a revival one night when the preacher talked about when that beast is going to rise up out of the sea and how we don't want to be around when it does; was some pretty scary stuff..



Spot on... the major clues besides the purpose listed in 1:11 (information sent to seven churches of Asia) are clear references that events described in the letter were going to take place shortly in the future. 

*  1:1 - things that must soon take place
*  1:3 - the time is near
*  22:6 - what must soon take place

For all who believe the events described are happening today need to ask this question... "what comfort would have been given to seven persecuted churches if all the things were to take place hundreds of years from then?"


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## michael777 (Jul 16, 2011)

Bama4me said:


> Spot on... the major clues besides the purpose listed in 1:11 (information sent to seven churches of Asia) are clear references that events described in the letter were going to take place shortly in the future.
> 
> *  1:1 - things that must soon take place
> *  1:3 - the time is near
> ...



  How do you know we are not talking about God's perspective? Everyday to God is as 1000 years. From God's perspective it was only two days.


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## Bama4me (Jul 16, 2011)

michael777 said:


> How do you know we are not talking about God's perspective? Everyday to God is as 1000 years. From God's perspective it was only two days.



The quotation you refer to (2 Peter 3:8) doesn't say what you claim it says.  The quote is "one day is as a thousand years"... not "one day is a thousand years."  The context of the passage is referring to the fact that people would scoff at the promise of Christ's coming... as if it wouldn't come true unless it was in a pre-appointed time.

The passage is pointing out the fact that while man may focus a lot of attention on time, God doesn't share that same obsession.  Because of a failure to notice this fact, many people try to go back in the Bible and "reinterpret" all of passages dealing with a time frame.  Doing so will make Christ stay in the tomb 3,000 years.

Thus, there's no such thing as "God's time" and "man's time" in reference to "the time is near."


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 16, 2011)

Look at this again. I used to think this was an evil copy of the trinity because it sort of describes the trinitarian Godhead.  We see them again in 16:13. I no longer hold the view of a "evil copy of"


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 16, 2011)

To understand "the mark" we must first understand Eph 1:13 "Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit". So my point, whatever formula you are baptized into is your mark. The imposter Jesus, refered to as the antichrist has been deceiving people into following him. His mark is 666 which is only an example, shown as "mystery" in 17:5. I expect it will later surface as 777. Who do we know who has a three part baptismal formula?


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## Jeffriesw (Jul 16, 2011)

Minority here also (Amillennialism is the clearest eschatalogical understanding I have heard, IMHO  )


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## formula1 (Jul 16, 2011)

*Re:*



Swamp Runner said:


> Minority here also (Amillennialism is the clearest eschatalogical understanding I have heard, IMHO  )



Thank SR.  I don't usually pay attention to the eschatalogical stuff, but that one is very close to how I see it.


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## Jeffriesw (Jul 16, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Thank SR.  I don't usually pay attention to the eschatalogical stuff, but that one is very close to how I see it.




Great minds think alike Brother


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## christianhunter (Jul 19, 2011)

Swamp Runner said:


> Minority here also (Amillennialism is the clearest eschatalogical understanding I have heard, IMHO  )



Me too!


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## tmiller (Jul 19, 2011)

The history of the recent view of eschatology is only 150 years old or so (dispensationalism). The historical view has been around since the church began.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 23, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Proud member of the minority reporting in.
> 
> I would just add that the identity of "the beast" changes with the headlines.  This article claims he's Abbas.  During the first Gulf War, everybody and their grandmothers swore it was Saddam Hussein.



Minority here, too.

I think saddam was part of the antichrist, as hitler and many others, which as a whole the beast.  I believe they were indwelled by satan for their life span and then satan finds another host.

Have you read the comparison of saddam to nebakanezer? it's interesting. 

Thank God I usually only have to deal with demons in me, they rear their head and I rebuke them out loud...walmart or any where.

I usually try to stick to the simple gospel when the water starts getting deep in revelation....I'm safe! Hallujah to the Lamb of God!


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## hobbs27 (May 12, 2013)

John being prisoner of the Romans had to write the letters of Revelation, to the churches. In the letter came many warnings to the churches and some serious criticism to the Roman empire. No wonder he wrote them in a symbolic manner, one which only the most religous would understand. There's criticism of Israel and Romans in there. 
 Its my opinion he did this to get the letters out to the people he wanted them to go to....prisoners of that time surely had no freedom of speech...so when we wonder and ponder on the meanings and symbols of Revelations we need to look into the past and study what people of that time would have understood the meanings to say...because John didn't tell the churches to hide this only to reveal it for a future generation, God gave it to John for the people of that time.


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## StriperAddict (May 13, 2013)

Not me.  
A one world government, one world currency, one world religion (google *Chrislam*... eeech!) are all on the horizon.

But my 'readiness' and message are as yours...
"seek the Lord while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near", and the entire counsel of 66 books unto faith in the Lord Jesus and the cross/ressurection.


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## hobbs27 (May 13, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> Not me.




You may be the only one in the majority.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 4, 2014)




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## hobbs27 (Mar 6, 2014)

Banjo Picker said:


> He has tried to destroy Israel under the first six kingdoms and will try to do so under the seventh and eighth kingdoms of the future, but will meet defeat by God as he has met it on all previous occasions.
> .



 Where did this come from?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 11, 2014)

Banjo picker...you do realize Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad. ?

For almost two thousand years there was no Israel until the US recognized one in 1948. So there was no monster trying to destroy Israel.   God actually poured his wrath out on her in 70 ad using the Romans to tear down the city and a religion that had become an unfaithful wife to Him. 

At Pentecost God poured out the spirit on the righteous that turned from Judaism and were baptized into Christianity....Some 40 years later He poured out His wrath on Jerusalem and all the Christians took heed and fled the city as they were warned by Jesus in the Olivet discourse and by John in revelation.It's history, check into it and the story of a big bad monster trying to attack Israel just doesn't fit into scripture or history.


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## JB0704 (Mar 11, 2014)

Three year old thread.  Any minority members change since then?

I'm one of those folks who study very little revelation, and enjoy hearing discussion on it.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 12, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> Not me.
> A one world government, one world currency, one world religion (google *Chrislam*... eeech!) are all on the horizon.
> 
> But my 'readiness' and message are as yours...
> "seek the Lord while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near", and the entire counsel of 66 books unto faith in the Lord Jesus and the cross/ressurection.





hobbs27 said:


> You may be the only one in the majority.



A little late to the party, but I'm with Striper on this one.



JB0704 said:


> Three year old thread.  Any minority members change since then?



Wow...guess I'm really late to the party.


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## Dana Young (Mar 12, 2014)

Im with striper and rj


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2014)

)


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## barryl (Mar 13, 2014)

Dana Young said:


> Im with striper and rj


barryl is in with ya'll!!!


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## centerpin fan (Mar 13, 2014)

I was gonna reply, but I noticed I already did three years ago.


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## apoint (Mar 25, 2014)

Israel peace agreement will be the beginning of the 7 year tribulation, SOON.  The abomination of desolation will be the middle 3.5 years which all heck will break loose, The rapture will have taken place by then, or SOON.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2014)

apoint said:


> Israel peace agreement will be the beginning of the 7 year tribulation, SOON.  The abomination of desolation will be the middle 3.5 years which all heck will break loose, The rapture will have taken place by then, or SOON.



Where is this word rapture you speak of in the bible?


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## apoint (Mar 26, 2014)

I just now made it up .


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## hobbs27 (Apr 29, 2015)

The best description of the beast I've seen, by Dr. Ken Gentry.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 29, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> The best description of the beast I've seen, by Dr. Ken Gentry.




Thanks. Dr. Gentry echo's what my elders have been telling me since many yrs.  Thanks again.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 29, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Thanks. Dr. Gentry echo's what my elders have been telling me since many yrs.  Thanks again.



I've watched this four times now and just have to  at people that disagree . 

 Glad you enjoyed.


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 30, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> You may be the only one in the majority.



Naw.  Me too.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 30, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Naw.  Me too.



I challenge you to watch the video, then dispute it. It's an hour long, I'll give you months if you take the challenge.


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## groundhawg (May 1, 2015)

StriperAddict said:


> Not me.
> A one world government, one world currency, one world religion (google *Chrislam*... eeech!) are all on the horizon.
> 
> But my 'readiness' and message are as yours...
> "seek the Lord while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near", and the entire counsel of 66 books unto faith in the Lord Jesus and the cross/ressurection.



You are correct.


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## groundhawg (May 1, 2015)

Bama4me said:


> Personally, my belief is that most of the events of Revelation are in the past... not the present nor the future.  This belief is based upon the purpose of the book - to provide hope and confort to the seven churches of Asia.



So when do you think thses things will hapen?


"A one world government, one world currency, one world religion (google Chrislam... eeech!) are all on the horizon.

But my 'readiness' and message are as yours...
"seek the Lord while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near", and the entire counsel of 66 books unto faith in the Lord Jesus and the cross/ressurection."


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## gordon 2 (May 1, 2015)

Quote(JB0704	Three year old thread. Any minority members change since then?)


 No. And I think this still bars repeating:


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## hobbs27 (May 1, 2015)

groundhawg said:


> So when do you think thses things will hapen?
> 
> 
> "A one world government, one world currency, one world religion (google Chrislam... eeech!) are all on the horizon.
> ...



It doesn't matter when or if any of those things, " one world govt, currency, etc"  happen.
 None of those things are spoken of in Revelation.
 Revelation is about a divorce and remarriage.

Divorce of Israel and wedding of the church, and both things have already happened and when this was written AD68? The time was near or the first verse would not have said, ( things which must shortly come to pass).


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## groundhawg (May 1, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> It doesn't matter when or if any of those things, " one world govt, currency, etc"  happen.
> None of those things are spoken of in Revelation.
> Revelation is about a divorce and remarriage.
> 
> Divorce of Israel and wedding of the church, and both things have already happened and when this was written AD68? The time was near or the first verse would not have said, ( things which must shortly come to pass).


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## Artfuldodger (May 1, 2015)

Aren't there some comparisons between John's revelations and Daniel's dreams?
Some pertaining to beasts, statues, kingdoms, etc.


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## hobbs27 (May 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Aren't there some comparisons between John's revelations and Daniel's dreams?
> Some pertaining to beasts, statues, kingdoms, etc.



Yes, and Daniel was told to seal up his prophecy because it was a long way off and John was told, do not seal it up, for the time is near.


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## hayseed_theology (May 2, 2015)

Four years late, but put me in the minority camp too.


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## Israel (May 3, 2015)

There's some verses that often come to mind when I consider these things, not only of the "when", but the how of things appearing.

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Of course there are many scriptures to be understood concerning our promise of the Lord's coming. That the apostle is careful to remind us that our perception of time may be quite different than our Lord's is of note.

But, when all seems mired in timelines, dates, histories, charts, and depictions there remains a word to which I cling "behold"...a very welcome order to look away from the tedium of things seen and sought to be apprehended or presented to be, of man...to the one who would be plainest in my sight.

as in "Behold, I come quickly..."


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## hobbs27 (May 3, 2015)

Despite popular belief, I believe God can tell time!

The transfiguration was a vision of the parousia being denied by the scoffers of 2Peter 3. Yet, the transfiguration was not a vision of the end of time, or the destruction of planet earth. It was a vision of the change from the Age of Moses to the Age of Christ. This means the parousia being denied by the scoffers was the Covenant change from Moses to Christ!


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## hobbs27 (May 3, 2015)

I have this book on my to read list as Im running behind on my reading lately, but certainly it pertains to the comments above. the back cover reads:

 The planet earth is doomed to be destroyed. At least that is what most prophecy teachers say. Human history is going to be burned up, right down to the atomic elements. At least that is what most prophecy teachers say. 2 Peter 3 is the foundational text for the Christian belief that the "earth and the elements therein" will one day be consumed with fire.

However.....

 Did you know that many great Christian scholars through the ages have rejected that interpretation? Is it possible that Peter was not predicting the end of time, and the fiery destruction of the cosmos? Did you know that the Jews called the Temple at Jerusalem "heaven and earth?" Did you know that the veil of the temple had "the elements" embroidered  into it? Did you know that Peter was actually predicting the destruction of Israel's Old Covenant "heaven and earth" in the horrible conflagration of Ad70?

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2829208-the-elements-shall-melt-with-fervent-heat


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## Artfuldodger (May 3, 2015)

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass,


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## hobbs27 (May 3, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass,



one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 Art...talk to me here! According to this verse can anyone accept the word of God to be inspired and flawless, if they think the least part of the law is fulfilled yet heaven and earth have not passed?


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## Artfuldodger (May 3, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
> 
> Art...talk to me here! According to this verse can anyone accept the word of God to be inspired and flawless, if they think the least part of the law is fulfilled yet heaven and earth have not passed?



If heaven and earth haven't passed, we'd better all get busy keeping Torah. I'm not exactly sure what it symbolizes but I do believe it has passed. Possibly Jerusalem, the Temple, and/or Mosaic Law.
If passed Jesus fulfilled "all." I'll go ahead and ask this; didn't Jesus fulfill "all" on the cross? 
I'll add if so, what about his resurrection, ascension, and return?


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## hobbs27 (May 3, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> If heaven and earth haven't passed, we'd better all get busy keeping Torah. I'm not exactly sure what it symbolizes but I do believe it has passed. Possibly Jerusalem, the Temple, and/or Mosaic Law.
> If passed Jesus fulfilled "all." I'll go ahead and ask this; didn't Jesus fulfill "all" on the cross?
> I'll add if so, what about his resurrection, ascension, and return?



You go straight to the meat of the question. This is where full preterist divide. Either its an individual body resurrection or a corporate body resurrection. IBV iew believes it is complete at the cross. I fall into the CBV in that the resurrection was completed at the parousia in 70ad when the dead in Christ were joined with those living with Christ on the clouds of glory to make up one body...the body of Christ..the Kingdom...the Church.


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## Artfuldodger (May 5, 2015)

When or what it the "times of the Gentiles" mentioned in Luke 21:24?

They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Then if we back up to verse 22;
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

I know this concerns the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple but when was the times of the Gentiles fulfilled?


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## Artfuldodger (May 5, 2015)

Romans 11:25-26
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

Is the mystery of the Gentile related to the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled?

"and in this way all Israel will be saved."

What way was that? Does this have anything to do with Jacob and Esau? Perhaps the Israelites aren't who we think they are. Maybe Jerusalem was destroyed to save the Israelites. 

There aren't enough books to write down everything.


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## Artfuldodger (May 5, 2015)

Related to the OP any thought on Daniel's dream of Kingdoms of Iron and Clay?


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## hobbs27 (May 5, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> When or what it the "times of the Gentiles" mentioned in Luke 21:24?
> 
> They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
> 
> ...



The time of the Gentile was 42 months. Parallel Luke 21:24 with Revelation 11:2 and you get your answer.


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## Artfuldodger (May 5, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> The time of the Gentile was 42 months. Parallel Luke 21:24 with Revelation 11:2 and you get your answer.



Simple yet precise.


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## hobbs27 (May 5, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Simple yet precise.



Yes. It is fulfilled, all of it, just like our bible says.


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