# why must most Christians think their way is the only way?



## hummdaddy (Aug 19, 2011)

i just don't get it . nobody really knows how we got here .their bible is written by man that has been interpreted and rewritten by man many times (we all know what can happen when someone tells a story). it all comes from this story of this mythical god that told this guy what to write .can someone help me see why they think they are better than me ,because i am a good person , family man , faithful to my wife , and raise my son with love .


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## centerpin fan (Aug 19, 2011)

I'm a Christian, and I don't think I'm better than you.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 19, 2011)

The follow-up is does it, somehow, affect you or your life...other than to make you angry apparently?

If you can show me a post in which a Christian has said he/she is better than you, I'll be happy to chastise them (or me...if it was me).  That is simply not the case.  We have all fallen short of the glory of God (even if you think he's mythical).

Very clearly, Christians do not believe that the Bible is man's work, nor do we believe that God is mythical or made up.  

To the question in the title of the thread...here's your answer:

Why must most Christians think their way is the only way?

Most don't....All do.  But it's not OUR way.  It's God's way...and yes, it is the only way to eternal salvation and life.

There are LOTS of ways to other outcomes.  But there is only one way to eternal life and it is found in the glorious name of our savior, Jesus Christ.


Have fun with that one buddy.  I can't wait!  

(nice turkey, BTW)


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## hummdaddy (Aug 19, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> The follow-up is does it, somehow, affect you or your life...other than to make you angry apparently?
> 
> If you can show me a post in which a Christian has said he/she is better than you, I'll be happy to chastise them (or me...if it was me).  That is simply not the case.  We have all fallen short of the glory of God (even if you think he's mythical).
> 
> ...



the difference between you and me is i don't want to change your mind . believe what you believe and that's it .i am not saying my way is the only way , because i don't even know what way that is .that has not been proven ,fictional books have been written.evolution could have happened .we could be an alien science project.we figured out test tube babies a few years back ,and cloning not long ago.that is proven stuff to me .none of this makes my way any better than yours , but don't tell me yours is the only way


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## Huntinfool (Aug 19, 2011)

I'm sorry man.  I will tell you all day long that God's way is the only way.  I do hate it that it's offensive to you.  But I will not apologize for it.

You're right about one thing.  I do want to change your mind.  I'm commanded to spread the gospel to all the world.  I don't understand why you find it offensive that I would want to include you in what I have.

You indicate that you're "ok" with me believing what I want to believe and that you don't know for sure either way.  But then you literally mock my beliefs in every single post that you put in these forums.  So, at the very least....you're convinced that you've ruled ONE way out, right?


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## hummdaddy (Aug 19, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm sorry man.  I will tell you all day long that God's way is the only way.  I do hate it that it's offensive to you.  But I will not apologize for it.
> 
> You're right about one thing.  I do want to change your mind.  I'm commanded to spread the gospel to all the world.  I don't understand why you find it offensive that I would want to include you in what I have.
> 
> You indicate that you're "ok" with me believing what I want to believe and that you don't know for sure either way.  But then you literally mock my beliefs in every single post that you put in these forums.  So, at the very least....you're convinced that you've ruled ONE way out, right?



i don't believe the bible ... i believe there was something that created us , but not like the bible says


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## WTM45 (Aug 19, 2011)

Exclusivity is inherent in religious belief systems.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 19, 2011)

What makes more sense to you?

Or, rather, why doesn't Genesis make sense to you if you believe that something created us?


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## Huntinfool (Aug 19, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> Exclusivity is inherent in religious belief systems.



You are correct sir....especially to the really good ones.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 19, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> ... can someone help me see why they think they are better than me ...



Christians are called to preach the gospel.  In His final words on this earth, Jesus told His followers to go into all the world and make disciples.  If somebody hands you a tract or invites you to church, it doesn't mean they think they're better than you.  They're just doing what Christians are supposed to do.  If you're not interested, just politely decline the offer.


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## jmharris23 (Aug 19, 2011)

Because our Savior whom we follow told us this was so...what else can we say?


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## rjcruiser (Aug 19, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> the difference between you and me is i don't want to change your mind



Wow.  I just can't reconcile that statement with the rest of your posts on this forum.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 19, 2011)

I have seen the better than you attitude in one definite way. I've seen many of you say that someone who doesn't live for god is selfish and only does good things for selfish reasons. While people who live for god are completely selfless in doing good things. Telling someone that they do good for selfish reasons comes off that their good isn't as good.


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## hummdaddy (Aug 19, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> What makes more sense to you?
> 
> Or, rather, why doesn't Genesis make sense to you if you believe that something created us?



i read that as mother nature/evolution and possible alien creation ..never have i read that ,only thing i had read before was the adam and eve


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## Mako22 (Aug 19, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> i just don't get it . nobody really knows how we got here .their bible is written by man that has been interpreted and rewritten by man many times (we all know what can happen when someone tells a story). it all comes from this story of this mythical god that told this guy what to write .can someone help me see why they think they are better than me ,because i am a good person , family man , faithful to my wife , and raise my son with love .



I keep hearing about these mythical Christians that think they are better than others but I have NEVER met one. In all my years around church I have never met a Christian who really thought that they were better than anyone else. I have had my personal stand against sin interpreted as thinking I am better than others but thats just not the case. Just because some Christians refuse to join you in your sin does not indicate that they feel superior to you. All of the self righteous superior feeling people I know are lost, on their way to the lake of fire and full of themselves.


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## jason4445 (Aug 19, 2011)

Because it is the strongest of the spiritual needs that a human requires to believe that their way of religious belief is the on correct and true was to believe.  It is an off shoot of pride and ego.  It is like a fundamentalist Christian once commented - if you don't believe your religion is the only true way for your eternal soul to go to heaven then why believe it in the first place.

It is something you find in any religion and in the major religions it get pared down to endless sects, cults and denominations - each one believing their is the only true way.

The believers of any religion will tell you that their religious book, of which each believe is the word of God will tell you that their way is the only way.  Well of course it does - what do you think it is going to say that this religion is awesome, fantastic, and great, but it may or may not get you into heaven.  And right after their word of God tell you it is the only way to heaven then it tells you how much money you need to contribute "to God" to participate in the religion.  Like God, needs no material  things and if so can create anything, but he wants money.

Really it is my belief that God loves all of his creation and it makes no difference to him in what manner his creation loves him back.


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## gtparts (Aug 19, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I have seen the better than you attitude in one definite way. I've seen many of you say that someone who doesn't live for god is selfish and only does good things for selfish reasons. While people who live for god are completely selfless in doing good things. Telling someone that they do good for selfish reasons comes off that their good isn't as good.



While way too prevalent, the attitude of superiority you find offensive should be offensive to Christians also. The God we worship has made it clear that the choice is between (1) joyfully serving Him or the only real alternative, (2) serving ourselves. Now, I've heard it argued that non-believers do good things based on noble motives and I have no doubt that they do. The problem is that doing good things does not solve the issue of whether one worships and serves God. There is a way that God says is the very best we can experience this life and all eternity and there are all the ways that man believes to be best that exclude God. The two ways are not compatible because all the ways of man  deny God His rightful position in their lives.  

But, the bottom line on the OP is this: Christians have no reason or right to feel or exhibit an attitude of superiority. They are relationally where they are because of the grace of God. 

What doesn't make sense to me is that so many irrationally reject God on the basis of what imperfect men have said and done, rather than evaluating God on the basis of who He is and what He has done for them. It would appear that some, thinking themselves rational, are not rational about their beliefs concerning God.


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## hummdaddy (Aug 19, 2011)

Woodsman69 said:


> I keep hearing about these mythical Christians that think they are better than others but I have NEVER met one. In all my years around church I have never met a Christian who really thought that they were better than anyone else. I have had my personal stand against sin interpreted as thinking I am better than others but thats just not the case. Just because some Christians refuse to join you in your sin does not indicate that they feel superior to you. All of the self righteous superior feeling people I know are lost, on their way to the lake of fire and full of themselves.[/QUOT
> 
> 
> i don't believe there is a lake of fire ,and i certainly have done nothing wrong to be sent to one . i live just as good as you so called christians , i just don't believe in a book.i think you die , your six feet under or cremated and that's it .your spirit hangs here on earth (i believe in  ghost)


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## 1john4:4 (Aug 19, 2011)

Woodsman69 said:


> I keep hearing about these mythical Christians that think they are better than others but I have NEVER met one. In all my years around church I have never met a Christian who really thought that they were better than anyone else. I have had my personal stand against sin interpreted as thinking I am better than others but thats just not the case. Just because some Christians refuse to join you in your sin does not indicate that they feel superior to you. All of the self righteous superior feeling people I know are lost, on their way to the lake of fire and full of themselves.





Good post!


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 19, 2011)

1john4:4 said:


> Good post!



Really? Did he have a gavel in his hand?? He was saying it himself.. He's better than the christians he knows that are self righteous. They're going to he11 for what they're doing, but he's got it right. How is that not, "I am better than they are?"


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## Michael F. Gray (Aug 19, 2011)

Jesus Christ said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh to the father but by me."  If the Word of God offends you I would suggest the problem isn't the WORD, but perhaps it's you. Those that Seek find.


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## bullethead (Aug 19, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> Jesus Christ said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh to the father but by me."  If the Word of God offends you I would suggest the problem isn't the WORD, but perhaps it's you. Those that Seek find.



You forgot the exact verse number but good job using scripture. I'd be very surprised if every non-believer didn't immediately convert. 

String, take note....thats #1.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 19, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> Jesus Christ said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh to the father but by me."  If the Word of God offends you I would suggest the problem isn't the WORD, but perhaps it's you. Those that Seek find.



That's quite offensive.. I'm not angry about it though.. If this so called word of god offends me it is how you communicated it to me, not the words themselves. I've read plenty of books and been told about plenty of books (more than I've read, that's for sure)... Just reading those words wouldn't be offensive. Thrown out like this, a little.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 19, 2011)

Woodsman69 said:


> I keep hearing about these mythical Christians that think they are better than others but I have NEVER met one. In all my years around church I have never met a Christian who really thought that they were better than anyone else. I have had my personal stand against sin interpreted as thinking I am better than others but thats just not the case. Just because some Christians refuse to join you in your sin does not indicate that they feel superior to you. All of the self righteous superior feeling people I know are lost, on their way to the lake of fire and full of themselves.



It's seldom that the words in books are offensive when compared to the way that the words in this book get communicated to people who don't see them as the end all be all. 

HOW COMMUNICATION IS INTERPRETED is 100% of how someone takes the entire situation. You can intend it any way you want, but your intentions DO NOT MATTER. The interpretation of it is exactly what matters. 

When you're a kid and you hit a girl because you like her, you can't say, "eh, it's her fault,  and I'm all good because I told her I liked her." Your intentions were to show her you like her, unfortunately, that didn't happen because you gave her a black eye..


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## vowell462 (Aug 20, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Really? Did he have a gavel in his hand?? He was saying it himself.. He's better than the christians he knows that are self righteous. They're going to he11 for what they're doing, but he's got it right. How is that not, "I am better than they are?"



I agree. The overall tone in the whole message was that way. Surlely if he has the gift of knowing there is a lake of fire then he should have the gift of knowing how he sounds when he writes.


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## 1gr8bldr (Aug 20, 2011)

A better description of what I think might explain this is; most christians don't claim or act as if they are better, but they do claim and act as if their behavior is better. Most that I have ever had dealings with assume that if your not Christian then you must be harboring some kind of evil. Most think that the Christians are to only ones doing any good deeds in this world. The sad thing is that the image that most Christians project is not that appealing. Mainly because of the judgemental crowd, those who are judgemental and those who are mistaken as being judgemental.


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## Turkey Trax (Aug 20, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> i don't believe there is a lake of fire ,and i certainly have done nothing wrong to be sent to one . i live just as good as you so called christians , i just don't believe in a book.i think you die , your six feet under or cremated and that's it .your spirit hangs here on earth (i believe in  ghost)



why do people like you think they're better than everyone that believes in Christ?


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## hummdaddy (Aug 20, 2011)

Turkey Trax said:


> why do people like you think they're better than everyone that believes in Christ?



i don't say my way is the only way.i don't know the way


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## stringmusic (Aug 20, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> i don't say my way is the only way.i don't know the way



If you don't know the way..... how do you know I don't?


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## TTom (Aug 20, 2011)

If each of you Christian, Atheist, pagan, Jew... does not believe that your beliefs are the truest and most correct set of beliefs, I have one simple question? Why do you hold on to them at all?

If you think some other belief is the best, then certainly you would take up that belief. 

I beleive with all my heart and soul in my religious beliefs, I believe they are the best and most enlightened beliefs. If I believed anything else then I would certainly change to the better more enlightened set of beliefs.

I'm less bothered by strongly held beliefs, so long as the offering of them/ the choice to believe in them/  is done in a respectful manner.


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## hummdaddy (Aug 21, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> If you don't know the way..... how do you know I don't?



from things i have seen with my own eyes and 14 near death experiences with no visits from other folks or god .not to mention all the stuff  that is in the bible that i think does not hold water ...   

never said you don;t know the way , just that i don't believe the bible's account


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## Miguel Cervantes (Aug 21, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> If you can show me a post in which a Christian has said he/she is better than you, I'll be happy to chastise them



Good luck with this one. It is a challenge that has recently been issued to him, with nothing but vague accusations as a response. Sometimes it's just easier to let folks be angry at a group that they can't come to terms with.


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## Six million dollar ham (Aug 21, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> Those that Seek find.



Great so there's no need to advertise of proselytize.


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## CAL (Aug 21, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> from things i have seen with my own eyes and 14 near death experiences with no visits from other folks or god .not to mention all the stuff  that is in the bible that i think does not hold water ...
> 
> never said you don;t know the way , just that i don't believe the bible's account



Just sorta wonder how you knew God wasn't with you in your near death experiences?As I see it you are still here and with us,something had to help or only one of the near death experiences would have been all it took.My God is with me every day not only helping me to make the what is right decisions but chastising me when I do wrong.Some will say my conscious is hurting me,I think it is God talking to me.Telling me I am wrong and fixing to mess up!
Good luck to you with your unbelief,I hope you see the light before it is too late for you.


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## hummdaddy (Aug 21, 2011)

CAL said:


> Just sorta wonder how you knew God wasn't with you in your near death experiences?As I see it you are still here and with us,something had to help or only one of the near death experiences would have been all it took.My God is with me every day not only helping me to make the what is right decisions but chastising me when I do wrong.Some will say my conscious is hurting me,I think it is God talking to me.Telling me I am wrong and fixing to mess up!
> Good luck to you with your unbelief,I hope you see the light before it is too late for you.



my wife was with me all 14 times...she helped me get my blood sugar up when i couldn't do it from super lows..i have to give my dog credit on some lows i did not know about too.she could sensed  something was wrong,and let me know by acting crazy several times before ,when i did not sense anything was wrong.


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## bullethead (Aug 21, 2011)

CAL said:


> Just sorta wonder how you knew God wasn't with you in your near death experiences?As I see it you are still here and with us,something had to help or only one of the near death experiences would have been all it took.My God is with me every day not only helping me to make the what is right decisions but chastising me when I do wrong.Some will say my conscious is hurting me,I think it is God talking to me.Telling me I am wrong and fixing to mess up!
> Good luck to you with your unbelief,I hope you see the light before it is too late for you.



If one god could have been with him at those time, there may have been 100 or none.


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## CAL (Aug 21, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> my wife was with me all 14 times...she helped me get my blood sugar up when i couldn't do it from super lows..i have to give my dog credit on some lows i did not know about too.she could sensed  something was wrong,and let me know by acting crazy several times before ,when i did not sense anything was wrong.



I see your point,but please consider mine.Why wasn't your wife at the grocery store,hair dresser,visiting friends,visiting family,gone to a ladies club meeting,possibly taking a nap,watching TV,went to the library,exercise club,shopping,see the possibilities of something else happening are endless.Just maybe there is a possibility something else just might have possibly been in control of the situation that caused what happened to have happened the way it did? Could something maybe possibly caused the dog to react the way it did?Just maybe there is a faint possibly?
Could maybe the Lord is trying hard to get you to be on his side for a particular reason?He could have something for you to do for Him,just maybe?Though you see no worth in Him nor His word,He just might see something in you.The something I speak about is something even you don't even know of but He wants done and wants you to do this thing.

Grace and Peace to you Brother,the best is yet to come!


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## WTM45 (Aug 22, 2011)

I'm ready to ask why HE was not there when the three year old took his last breath in the cancer ward at St. Jude's Medical Center.
And, why he was not there when the little boy in El Salvador was struck and killed by the freight flatbed truck.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 22, 2011)

He was. He made those things happen.


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## WTM45 (Aug 22, 2011)

That would be logical, TXB, as one who has control over "everything" has to have control over what we see as bad as well as what we see as good.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 22, 2011)

control over everything does not equal causation.

Allowing and causing are different.  

Is it possible that nothing bad every happen to anybody?  Think on that for a minute and give me an honest response.  

First, you have the issue of "bad".  What is it?  Who decides?

Second, death....I think we would all agree that death is "bad" (from a wordly perspective at least).  If God was "good" in your eyes, then no one would ever die, correct?  Ever?  In WTM's post...those are tragic deaths.  But death non-the-less.  Why does the "how" matter?  They died just like everyone else will.  Sooner than normal?  Absolutely.  More tragic than normal?  You bet.  But death is death.  Why is God not "good" in those instances and it's ok for a 94YO man to die peacefully in his sleep?  Still dead, right?

Do you see any potential issues with that prospect?

There are many other implications of the requirement that God being "good" equal "nothing bad ever happens".


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## WTM45 (Aug 22, 2011)

Nope.  Don't buy it.
Death itself is not "bad" as it is an acceptable part of life. 
There is nothing "good" in a child losing their life early, or to die in slow agony.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 22, 2011)

Allowing, letting, whatever. Not good. 

Sure, if dieing just means you go on to something better, 94 or 4 might not really be different. When life is all you've got, 94 and 4 are completely different.

Nothing bad every happens to anyone? That means that anything that could possibily be percieved as bad, is really just god's will so it must be good? I believe that's just people's minds trying to justify something that they may want to believe.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 22, 2011)

Would you agree that, if it's not good...it must be bad?

Is there some other option that I'm not grasping?


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## Huntinfool (Aug 22, 2011)

> Sure, if dieing just means you go on to something better, 94 or 4 might not really be different. When life is all you've got, 94 and 4 are completely different.



BINGO!  Man I could not have given that message any better.  You nailed it my man.  When life is all you've got...



> Nothing bad every happens to anyone? That means that anything that could possibily be percieved as bad, is really just god's will so it must be good? I believe that's just people's minds trying to justify something that they may want to believe.



I think you're missing my point.  If it's bad that people die tragically (that's the implication of being angry that God caused it or allowed it)....then what would you have him do?  The only option is that no one ever die.  How does that work?

I'm not addressing whether it's God's will or not.  I'm simply addressing this insistence that, in order for God to be "good", nothing bad can ever happen.  It's silly.


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## WTM45 (Aug 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Would you agree that, if it's not good...it must be bad?
> 
> Is there some other option that I'm not grasping?



I believe there just is.  In everything.  
That's where folks attempt to take the marbles and divide them subjectively.
And, to make attempts to control outcomes by their actions.
Don't wanna fall off into a canyon, one stays away from the edge of the cliff.  But when the cavern opens up under you without warning or notice, well, that's life.  Thank or curse whatever power one seeks to thank or blame, but in reality it makes no difference.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 22, 2011)

It's in a book where you're getting the idea that there is anything. You hope there is. That doesn't mean that there is. Of course, I don't KNOW that there's not.


My point would be that no being had control to let it happen or not. I'm not calling in at angry, just or all knowing anything.


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## bullethead (Aug 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> control over everything does not equal causation.
> 
> Allowing and causing are different.
> 
> ...



How about prolonged suffering in agony?


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## stringmusic (Aug 22, 2011)

bullethead said:


> How about prolonged suffering in agony?



Is there an _objective_ amount of time that we can call "prolonged"?


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## Huntinfool (Aug 22, 2011)

Death is the ultimate end, right?  

Prolonged suffering in agony is "bad".  The main implication, though, is whether the occurence of "bad" things negates the possibility of a good God.

It's not possible to make that argument I don't think.  Not that life is a zero sum game.  But "good" cannot always be the outcome.


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## bullethead (Aug 22, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Is there an _objective_ amount of time that we can call "prolonged"?



Months to years, use whatever you want.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 22, 2011)

I have a real painful burr on my heal...if you rub it for me, I'll give you a whole quarter.  And I'll give bullethead an quarter too bullethead!


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## WTM45 (Aug 22, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Months to years, use whatever you want.



23 seconds trapped in a car fire can be considered prolonged.
Breathe deep, it comes quicker.


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## gtparts (Aug 22, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> I'm ready to ask why HE was not there when the three year old took his last breath in the cancer ward at St. Jude's Medical Center.
> And, why he was not there when the little boy in El Salvador was struck and killed by the freight flatbed truck.



We have covered this before. I would ask you several questions.

1) How would you know that God was not there?

2) How is it that you assume death of the physical body is the worst that could happen to someone? 

Your answer to these two questions is predicated on your belief or unbelief on two points:

Does God exist or not, neither of which can be proven scientifically?

Does each human have an eternal soul or not?

Regardless of your personal response, consider the alternative.

Ultimately, our beliefs shape our attitudes concerning the two cited examples. To lose someone, for whom we deeply care, to death, is a sad thing from the human perspective. It would be foolish to say the emotional response was less than genuine. Yet, if one believes that God exists, created us with eternal souls and loves us, and has made provision for the soul beyond this life, based on the the self-sacrifice of His incarnate Son, then ones overall attitude about the loss changes significantly.  

Even if we do not have any real connection to these tragic losses, we try to apply some kind of evaluation of the situation based on our limited human experience, knowledge, and logic.The human mind (absent an understanding of the spiritual truth) races to the label these occurrences as unfair, unjustified, or unloving. That response is a natural one. Even many Christians feel this way some times. In the absence of what I know to be true of God and His character, I would respond similarly and agree with that assessment. 

Likewise, if you had my perspective, you would no doubt regard those events as tragic.... yes, as sad... yes, but not the worst possible outcome.

For Christians, the worst thing that anyone can experience is the consequence reserved for rejecting God and His provision for redemption, Jesus.

Why do we believe Jesus is the only way? 

Because we believe the Word of God to be completely trustworthy.


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## stringmusic (Aug 22, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Months to years, use whatever you want.



A minimum of 200 years, do you know someone who has been in agony that long? Because if not, then it is not "bad".

The point is what you see as prolonged agony is not that long in an eternal sense, and is certainly not long to God who does not live in or by the contraints of time.


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## bullethead (Aug 22, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> 23 seconds trapped in a car fire can be considered prolonged.
> Breathe deep, it comes quicker.



Very true, prolonged is relative to the situation.


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## bullethead (Aug 22, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> A minimum of 200 years, do you know someone who has been in agony that long? Because if not, then it is not "bad".
> 
> The point is what you see as prolonged agony is not that long in an eternal sense, and is certainly not long to God who does not live in or by the contraints of time.



Time is relative to the individuals situation, disease, ailment, etc. You obviously have never had someone you care about be eaten alive by cancer. If you have seen a 200lb man wither to 87lbs with bones snapping due to the disease and still think 200 years is bare minimum....then I don't know what to say to you.


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## bullethead (Aug 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I have a real painful burr on my heal...if you rub it for me, I'll give you a whole quarter.  And I'll give bullethead an quarter too bullethead!



Keep the quarter, buy tissues.


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## stringmusic (Aug 22, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Time is relative to the individuals situation, disease, ailment, etc. You obviously have never had someone you care about be eaten alive by cancer. If you have seen a 200lb man wither to 87lbs with bones snapping due to the disease and still think 200 years is bare minimum....then I don't know what to say to you.



The point I was trying to make was because you believe that someone suffering over a 6 month, 1 year, 100 year, period due to cancer does not make it A. Gods' fault or B."bad".


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## bullethead (Aug 22, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> The point I was trying to make was because you believe that someone suffering over a 6 month, 1 year, 100 year, period due to cancer does not make it A. Gods' fault or B."bad".



I concern myself with what affects me and my family and friends now, not what some made up entity in someone elses mind thinks. I don't want to hear excuses to why not after you tout the praises for the why in everything else you think he is responsible for.  I'd have to have the same beliefs as you do to go along with your reasoning, I do not. I hold a higher power to higher standards.


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## WTM45 (Aug 22, 2011)

gtparts said:


> 1) How would you know that God was not there?
> 
> 2) How is it that you assume death of the physical body is the worst that could happen to someone?



Number 1, if he was there, it shows a callous attitude toward physical plight.  But the same could be said of Buddha, Ra, Orion, Allah...

Number 2, I know for a fact death is no where near the worst thing that can be experienced.  Death can come as a relief or as a welcome friend.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 22, 2011)

> Number 1, if he was there, it shows a callous attitude toward physical plight. But the same could be said of Buddha, Ra, Orion, Allah...



But then that goes back to the problem of requiring that nothing bad happen in order for him to be good.  

I can be ok with you being ok with that.  It just doesn't make any sense to me.

If nothing were "bad", then number two on your list would not be true.


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## WTM45 (Aug 22, 2011)

I can not give a universal definition of "bad" or of "good" as they are both subjective and based on culture/region/age/society/timeframe.

I personally can only see a deity as one who is benevolent towards those who have not openly and intentionally wronged that deity.
It helps push my leanings towards there being no deity at all, and the very idea of one (or more) as a man-made ideal.


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## bad0351 (Aug 22, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> A minimum of 200 years, do you know someone who has been in agony that long? Because if not, then it is not "bad".
> 
> The point is what you see as prolonged agony is not that long in an eternal sense, and is certainly not long to God who does not live in or by the contraints of time.



I'm in agony reading christian response to this......


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## gtparts (Aug 22, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> Number 1, if he was there, it shows a callous attitude toward physical plight.  But the same could be said of Buddha, Ra, Orion, Allah...
> 
> Number 2, I know for a fact death is no where near the worst thing that can be experienced.  Death can come as a relief or as a welcome friend.



I can agree with your response to #2, yet it doesn't address the matter of an afterlife. From previous exchanges, either you don't believe in an afterlife at all or you are not sufficiently moved to believe any afterlife offers more than one eternal outcome or if there is, that you can alter which one you receive. 

Your view concerning the callous attitude toward physical plights seems idealistic. How much suffering is too much? How little suffering qualifies as not callous? In a world where natural forces, where even the random confluence of the wills of men conflict and result in injury, disease, and death, how does that show callousness? Perhaps, God knows how much worse things would have happened as a result of sparing these young children.

If you can second guess God with 100% accuracy as to the best possible outcome, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED, then you need to apply for His position. 
What I am saying is that He is the only one who has all the information to render such a decision.


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## WTM45 (Aug 22, 2011)

That is the default answer believers hold fast to.  Only God knows.  Only Allah knows.  Only Buddha knows. 

If men knew, they would have modified their guidebooks/holybooks to reflect that knowledge of the answers, and we would know the ultimate reasoning for exclusivity.


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## JFS (Aug 22, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> Only Buddha knows.




Not exactly true for Buddha.  Buddha only told what worked for him and encouraged everyone to seek the truth for themselves.  He never claimed any monopoly on the truth:

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
_--Buddha_


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## jason4445 (Aug 22, 2011)

Buddha is very similar to Jesus. And like Jesus never wanted to be a God.  Like Jesus Buddha never said he was a God.


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## WTM45 (Aug 22, 2011)

JFS said:


> Not exactly true for Buddha.  Buddha only told what worked for him and encouraged everyone to seek the truth for themselves.  He never claimed any monopoly on the truth:
> 
> “Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
> _--Buddha_



Certainly Buddha does not have the same level of omniscience attributed to him as the God of Abraham, but he is believed by his followers to have reached a level of enlightenment which can provide an understanding of the human condition, death, the possibility of afterlife and religious belief system exclusivity.
We digress to a discussion more appropriate for a different forum.


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## simpleman30 (Aug 22, 2011)

If you don't believe in a lake of fire, you'd better be right.


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## JFS (Aug 22, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> but he is believed by his followers to have reached a level of enlightenment which can provide an understanding of the human condition, death, the possibility of afterlife and religious belief system exclusivity.



Buddha sought and subsequently taught an understanding of the human experience that leads to freedom from suffering and compassion for others.  Those teachings are, just as with all religious frameworks, hung in the cultural trappings of the society which they inhabit.   So while some coutries or cultures incorporate a "religious" afterlife component, others don't and it is not a necessary or inherent part of of being "Buddhist".


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## WTM45 (Aug 22, 2011)

JFS said:


> Buddha sought and subsequently taught an understanding of the human experience that leads to freedom from suffering and compassion for others.  Those teachings are, just as with all religious frameworks, hung in the cultural trappings of the society which they inhabit.   So while some coutries or cultures incorporate a "religious" afterlife component, others don't and it is not a necessary or inherent part of of being "Buddhist".



Correct.  The "endless knot" is the common ground.


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## vowell462 (Aug 22, 2011)

simpleman30 said:


> If you don't believe in a lake of fire, you'd better be right.



Really? I mean, for real?


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## Phoelix (Aug 22, 2011)

When your life comes to an end, as mine did back in 2008, and you are totally at the end of your rope, and grief is at an unbearable level, you fall to your knees, as I did, and experienced the most incredible event in  my life. I felt like 500 pounds of weight was lifted from my shoulders in an instant, and a feeling of forgiveness and acceptance above profound.   Thats why I believe, Love, and worship on a daily basis....Just my experience and choice, don't force it on anyone, or think Im better than anyone...Clearly not a "science project" to me!


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## buckpasser (Aug 22, 2011)

simpleman30 said:


> If you don't believe in a lake of fire, you'd better be right.



Can you imagine laying on your death bed having put all your chips on the fact that to the best of your figuring-there was nothing to fear, except the end of your life here?  wow


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## BUCK 87JT (Aug 23, 2011)

i BELIEVE IN GOD!! but hummdaddy has a point!! for example i am stationed in KEY WEST and i see people down here at certain time of the year, With Huge signs telling everyone they are going to he(( for just being on DUVAL street during halloween, maybe he has came across people like this in his time and thats where he is coming from when he talks of people being "BETTER" Than others. Like i said i Believe but i will never support someone screaming in a Megaphone claiming that I am going to he((for just taking part in an event....Also none of you probally truly know hummdaddy and if you met him you would probally get along with him I KNOW I WOULD..........REMEMBER NOT EVERYONE IS RAISED THE SAME WAY AND NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO YOU CANT CHANGE EVERYONE !!!!!!


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## JFS (Aug 23, 2011)

buckpasser said:


> there was nothing to fear, except the end of your life here?  wow



If you are thinking straight to start with, you don't even really fear that.

Can you imagine living every day of your life pretending you had an invisible magical friend who was there to grant your pleas like a genie in a lamp and that there were sky gods and fire gods intervening in world events and your personal affairs?  I can't.


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## buckpasser (Aug 23, 2011)

JFS said:


> If you are thinking straight to start with, you don't even really fear that.
> 
> Can you imagine living every day of your life pretending you had an invisible magical friend who was there to grant your pleas like a genie in a lamp and that there were sky gods and fire gods intervening in world events and your personal affairs?  I can't.



If you can't, don't.  It would be useless to live in a way that you don't believe.  Good luck.


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## JB0704 (Aug 23, 2011)

JFS said:


> Can you imagine living every day of your life pretending you had an invisible magical friend



It's pretty cool once you get the hang of it.



JFS said:


> who was there to grant your pleas like a genie in a lamp and that there were sky gods and fire gods intervening in world events and your personal affairs?  I can't.



I don't buy all that stuff either, not like you state it anyway.


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## CAL (Aug 23, 2011)

JFS said:


> Can you imagine living every day of your life pretending you had an invisible magical friend who was there to grant your pleas like a genie in a lamp and that there were sky gods and fire gods intervening in world events and your personal affairs?  I can't.



Huh,I can't either but i do believe in God and the Holy Spirit.I believe Jesus lived,died on the cross for my sins and was risen from the dead and is in Heaven with God.I have also seen the faith of a Mustard seed work a Miracle too.The feelings that come with believing just don't get any better.I wished everyone could experience them.


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## bzb (Aug 24, 2011)

TTom said:


> If each of you Christian, Atheist, pagan, Jew... does not believe that your beliefs are the truest and most correct set of beliefs, I have one simple question? Why do you hold on to them at all?
> 
> If you think some other belief is the best, then certainly you would take up that belief.
> 
> ...



Just one nit - an atheist is devoid of belief of any god.  If you don't believe in the existence of ghosts, aliens, or unicorns, there isn't a "belief" for not believing in those.

One could be an "agnostic theist" - which would be a belief.  That would be my belief.

Quite simply: just know what the words mean.

Unfortunately, religion is largely an indoctrination process due to regional location.  If we were all posting from China it's far more likely we'd be talking about the faults of Taoism or Buddhism.  There's a mob mentality when it comes to religion.  I'll probably take some flack for this analogy, but it's similar to wearing a Florida t-shirt around Athens.  Or, as it may be with me, a Georgia Tech one 

Generally, there's going to be very little that happens when someone outside the social/cultural norm approaches or is identified.  Then comes the ribbing, and occasionally the heated discussion.  Every once in a while, you get two boneheads together and the situation erupts.

The only major difference is that they aren't trying to get each other into their school (of thought).



And as for the lake of fire - why is it OK to steal He double hockey sticks from the ancient Greeks (right down to its names), but the rest of their religion is "myth"?


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## vowell462 (Aug 25, 2011)

bzb said:


> Just one nit - an atheist is devoid of belief of any god.  If you don't believe in the existence of ghosts, aliens, or unicorns, there isn't a "belief" for not believing in those.
> 
> One could be an "agnostic theist" - which would be a belief.  That would be my belief.
> 
> ...



Well said. Love the analogy of regional location.


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## WTM45 (Aug 25, 2011)

Not so much an analogy as is is a verified and documented fact.


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## TTom (Aug 25, 2011)

I've heard that nit picked before, find it no less specious than I found it before. 

However, in this case I didn't say atheists believed in anything specific only that they had beliefs unspecified.


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## vowell462 (Aug 25, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> Not so much an analogy as is is a verified and documented fact.



True. I was using your words. Much more well spoken than I.


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## bzb (Aug 26, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> Not so much an analogy as is is a verified and documented fact.



What, that me wearing a Ramblin Wreck t-shirt up here is dangerous business? 



TTom said:


> I've heard that nit picked before, find it no less specious than I found it before.
> 
> However, in this case I didn't say atheists believed in anything specific only that they had beliefs unspecified.



Specifically, you capitalized "Atheist" as if it were some sort of cult or organized belief system or ideology.  It isn't.  You corrected yourself in your next post, which makes me wonder if you know the difference or not.

For example, you can be a "republican" without being a "Republican", or a "libertarian" without being a member of the LP.  There is not an "Atheism" religion... although one could argue there are clubs for atheists - but that would be like me calling someone a Mormon, when they're a Baptist.  It's not "close enough".


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## TTom (Aug 26, 2011)

bzb I live in the danger zone, LOL

House (read bank account) divided.

Half my disposable income goes to the North Avenue Technical College, the other half goes to UGA.


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## TTom (Aug 26, 2011)

bzd, you continue to find the tiniest of nits , which causes me wonder how many times you like to split frogs hairs. But thank you for the lesson in picking the finest nits.

Specifically in the first use in the first post, I capitalize "Atheist" as a category of people. They do in fact share many beliefs, groups of them even make some of their own "churches" and websites devoted to their beliefs.

Likely to be more clear, I should have maintained the capitalization and capitalized Pagan as well. Certainly the beliefs shared in the category of Atheists, are at least as numerous as those shared by the category of Pagans. I would contend that even among the category of Christians the diversity of beliefs can be shocking to many people. Jews would be the least diverse in beliefs, but still the argument could be made that the diversity among Jews makes the category unusable because it is not monolithic. 

You mention they (Atheists as a group) are not a religion, on that we agree, but not all beliefs are religious. The assumption you seemed to make about my position, complete with the cliche' result is that the list was a list of religions. 

I made the list specifically "BELIEFS" which include religious and non religious, spiritual and non spiritual and philosophic BELIEFS.


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## bzb (Aug 26, 2011)

TTom said:


> bzd, you continue to find the tiniest of nits , which causes me wonder how many times you like to split frogs hairs. But thank you for the lesson in picking the finest nits.
> 
> Specifically in the first use in the first post, I capitalize "Atheist" as a category of people. They do in fact share many beliefs, groups of them even make some of their own "churches" and websites devoted to their beliefs.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the clarification.  Just like to make sure everyone's on the same page when we discuss things of this nature 

The lack of belief in the supernatural isn't a "belief".  Very simply: not believing is the opposite of believing.  That's not a belief.  A negative isn't a positive just because majority rules.  In this context, you're using atheism as a religious group.  As is just about anyone that uses the word.  That, it is not.  Not is.  Clear? 

My beef with the term and it's common usage are simply that religious folks typically have a need to make sure everyone HAS a belief.  Why does everyone HAVE to believe in one way or the other?  The lack of belief in something that is implausible to that person is not a belief... no more than believing in unicorns, Santa Claus (not St. Nikolaus), or the Easter Bunny.

In fact, going with children's beliefs... you're born an atheist.  You don't "know" god.  In fact, unless kids are indoctrinated, they don't even have the concept of the scope of the world or potential supernatural phenomenon.  They can be told anything and they'll establish a belief system.  It's the curiosity in children that helps them figure out things don't exist.  But, then you have adults who do believe in something that's unable to be known, and force feed the information to kids that it's wrong to believe otherwise.

I think - rather, believe - that's very evil.  In every sense of the word.

Back to the "you have to believe or you don't": that type of thinking is exactly what's wrong with our country today.  Most people in our country believe you're either Democrat, or you're Republican.  There are many other ways of thinking, even within those parties.  In fact, I think it's great that some people DON'T vote, on principle.  Personally, I'm not a Libertarian, but I vote LP just about every chance I get. I'm one of those weirdos that could actually tell you who I'm voting for before an election, rather than pick random folks in checkboxes based on a gut feeling.


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## JFS (Aug 26, 2011)

bzb said:


> And as for the lake of fire - why is it OK to steal He double hockey sticks from the ancient Greeks (right down to its names), but the rest of their religion is "myth"?



An excellent point.  I think the Egyptians were the first to come up with the lake of fire, but they are currently debating in the other forum what the "gates of Hades" means.


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## TTom (Aug 26, 2011)

I remain unimpressed with the argument about atheism being devoid of belief in god, I find it at best a semantic battle.

Lacking a belief is another dodge.
Because Atheists (as a group) are anything but lacking in an opinion (belief) about the existence of god. The page after page protesting against the possibility of the existence of god speak loud and long about how much they lack an opinion (belief) about god.

Carrying the idea further along Agnostics would be closer to lacking a belief, because they have not formed a solid yes or no answer in their minds. Atheists have formed the definitive "No" answer as fully and completely as Theists have formed the definitive "Yes" answer to the proposition of god.


My turn to pick a nit

"Unable to be known,"

I would disagree on the point because there are both rational and irrational ways to KNOW things. There is no rational way to know god exists. But gnostic traditions (Christian and other religions have them) don't rely on rational thought but rather on directly experiencing god.


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## TTom (Aug 26, 2011)

negative vs positive are the equivalent of east vs west a direction and distance away from (no opinion) the lack of any belief.


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## bzb (Aug 26, 2011)

TTom said:


> I remain unimpressed with the argument about atheism being devoid of belief in god, I find it at best a semantic battle.
> 
> Lacking a belief is another dodge.
> Because Atheists (as a group) are anything but lacking in an opinion (belief) about the existence of god. The page after page protesting against the possibility of the existence of god speak loud and long about how much they lack an opinion (belief) about god.
> ...



No, not believing can't ever be a belief.  Yes, it's semantics, and it's impossible.  We can agree to disagree on any of the word and its common usage all day, that's fine.

My only nit is that it's not a capital A for those of us who care.  But most people don't care that other folks call things "laptops" or "cell phones" or "clips".

I just think when you engage in a debate, you should know something about the subject, and understanding the proper semantics and terminology about what you're discussing is key to thoughtful debate.



> My turn to pick a nit
> 
> "Unable to be known,"
> 
> I would disagree on the point because there are both rational and irrational ways to KNOW things. There is no rational way to know god exists. But gnostic traditions (Christian and other religions have them) don't rely on rational thought but rather on directly experiencing god.



That'd be like "knowing" aliens exist because you got probed.

When I said "to be known" I'm referring specifically to an agnostic point of view.  Agnostic simply means "without knowledge".  You're right, though, it should probably be amended to be "truth" or "fact" (although, Christians love twisting those words, too).

A false experience is also known as a lie, delusion, misrepresentation, anecdote, etc.  All depends on your perspective.

Just because it's "known" by the public that cell phones are carried by everyone - it's not a truth.  Cell phones don't really exist much anymore, if at all.  Semantics aside, there's a correct definition of the word, and the way people commonly use it, whether publicly, or technical jargon, or colloquialisms.

You cannot actually know if there's a god.  When you and I die, and nothing happens... who's right?  Maybe nothing happened to you and I went to heaven.  Then I'm wrong, you were right, but maybe you did something nasty that didn't get you VIP access.  You still won't know, and neither will I.

Just sayin'


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## TTom (Aug 26, 2011)

A false experience?

Nit time again, LOL

Experience is not false, it might be interpreted in ways you believe to be in error. But experience itself can only be true. 

Example I had hooks in my back, I was lifted into the air by them, in a direction where it should have been dim or dark for me with closed eyes I saw a bright light, I felt a sense of peace and connection with the universe, when I came down I felt a loss of intensity of connection to the universe.

The experience is 100% true. How that gets interpreted is a matter of opinion and thus beliefs.

Nothing in that EXPERIENCE is false, interpretation of that experience is certainly open for any and everyone.

BTW as a side note of information, I'm not a Christian, but rather a Universalist (Not Unitarian)


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 26, 2011)

bzb said:


> Specifically, you capitalized "Atheist" as if it were some sort of cult or organized belief system or ideology.  It isn't.  You corrected yourself in your next post, which makes me wonder if you know the difference or not.
> 
> For example, you can be a "republican" without being a "Republican", or a "libertarian" without being a member of the LP.  There is not an "Atheism" religion... although one could argue there are clubs for atheists - but that would be like me calling someone a Mormon, when they're a Baptist.  It's not "close enough".



Funny... did you know that pronouns aren't supposed to be capitalized unless they are at the beginning of a sentence?


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## hummdaddy (Aug 26, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Funny... did you know that pronouns aren't supposed to be capitalized unless they are at the beginning of a sentence?



i just try to use spell check and what it tells me sometimes


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## bzb (Aug 26, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Funny... did you know that pronouns aren't supposed to be capitalized unless they are at the beginning of a sentence?



Huh?  Did I do that?

Anyway, semantics aren't the same as grammar mistakes.  Folks intentionally or unintentionally place a capital A when it's either

a) not needed
b) not necessary
c) conveys something completely different

My nit was specifically that atheists were included with a set of believers.  That makes about as much sense - to someone who understands atheism - as it would grouping a maple leaf with a bunch of meat.

The capitalization point was exactly what I was pointing it out to be, not the nitpick in question.  I didn't know if TTom understood the difference or not.


----------



## bzb (Aug 26, 2011)

TTom said:


> A false experience?
> 
> Nit time again, LOL
> 
> Experience is not false, it might be interpreted in ways you believe to be in error. But experience itself can only be true.



We're not talking about emotions, or the intricacies of what the mind can imagine.  I can clearly imagine Middle Earth differently from the way I experienced it watching Peter Jackson's interpretation.

As it's a fictional place, there are parts of the movie that I "recognized" immediately because I was familiar with the story.

In other words, I was already prepped for a "false experience".

Folks who absolutely believe in God, or Jesus, or aliens, or palm readers, etc. will misattribute anything in their life toward that belief.  Conveniently, the far more numerous misses are ignored.


Unless I'm misunderstanding, and you're talking specifically about the Bible's New Testament - to which I contend that it wasn't written by the people who experienced any of it, but rather by folks who lived far after any of the incidents happened.

Just because ONE source says something, that does not make it true.  There have to be other evidence supporting facts and truth.




> Example I had hooks in my back, I was lifted into the air by them, in a direction where it should have been dim or dark for me with closed eyes I saw a bright light, I felt a sense of peace and connection with the universe, when I came down I felt a loss of intensity of connection to the universe.
> 
> The experience is 100% true. How that gets interpreted is a matter of opinion and thus beliefs.
> 
> Nothing in that EXPERIENCE is false, interpretation of that experience is certainly open for any and everyone.



I've experienced a lot of crazy things when I was sleep deprived.  I don't think any of it was gods or aliens or out-of-body experiences... I realize the complexity of the brain generates these types of things for myriad reasons.  Or no reason at all!

I experienced quite a few strange phenomenon living on Edwards AFB.  I also realize I was a child when I saw these things... you know how when you visit the house you grew up in and it's insanely tiny?  Interpretation is the key here, and with further reflection you'd be able to modify your ideas of those experiences and get closer to the truth.

The difference is, we have the ability to figure these things out, eventually.

So yes, I'd agree with you, my terminology was probably weak on this one.  "False interpretation of an experience attributed to a deity."


How's that sound? 


> BTW as a side note of information, I'm not a Christian, but rather a Universalist (Not Unitarian)



Heard of it, but can't say I'm familiar.  I'll have to read up on this one!


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 26, 2011)

I'm talking about referring to god as Him and He.. Is there a book of the bible telling us about how to correctly use his pronouns? Was it set aside to make room from proverbs?




bzb said:


> Huh?  Did I do that?
> 
> Anyway, semantics aren't the same as grammar mistakes.  Folks intentionally or unintentionally place a capital A when it's either
> 
> ...


----------



## mtnwoman (Aug 26, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> the difference between you and me is i don't want to change your mind .



Maybe not, you along with many other nonbelievers just want to laugh and mock and make fun of what we believe. You come to where we are to make sure we hear it, too. 
Do you see me in a thread mocking and making fun of people who kill animals? I think it's gross, but I let them alone, I don't mock and cut them down because they believe differently than me. They can live in peace without my 2 cents about it.

I also don't think I'm better than you, listen I've been to the bottom of the barrel, way below anything you've probably experienced or had to endure or try to escape from...I've never hurt another person, but I've been pretty low on the totum pole.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 26, 2011)

You came to respond here... And you are on an outdoor site which I'd say the MAIN THEME is HUNTING. I'm not saying you aren't welcome in any of these places, just pointing that out considering your post.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 26, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> You came to respond here... And you are on an outdoor site which I'd say the MAIN THEME is HUNTING. I'm not saying you aren't welcome in any of these places, just pointing that out considering your post.



Of course the main thing is hunting, I didn't say otherwise, I just don't go look at those threads and have something negative to say about people harming animals. Yes I did come here, but I usually only post in the spiritual areas, and the person that I posted to comes into those threads to post, too. Which usually has nothing to do with hunting. I didn't say anyone wasn't welcome to come into any thread.
But in your opinion if I went into the bow/rifle/deer/hog/fish threads and started saying negative things about what y'all are doing, would that bother you? Day after day after day?  Would that finally stick in your craw or not?

And yes all of us can go anywhere we want to, I just don't see much use in stirring a pot, though, do you?


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 26, 2011)

Didn't realize there was pot stirring like you're talking about. I've never looked. I Didn't mean you were stirring anything either and I've seen you in this section several times.


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## hummdaddy (Aug 26, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Of course the main thing is hunting, I didn't say otherwise, I just don't go look at those threads and have something negative to say about people harming animals. Yes I did come here, but I usually only post in the spiritual areas, and the person that I posted to comes into those threads to post, too. Which usually has nothing to do with hunting. I didn't say anyone wasn't welcome to come into any thread.
> But in your opinion if I went into the bow/rifle/deer/hog/fish threads and started saying negative things about what y'all are doing, would that bother you? Day after day after day?  Would that finally stick in your craw or not?
> 
> And yes all of us can go anywhere we want to, I just don't see much use in stirring a pot, though, do you?



its a public forum so i post in there , just like religious folks post in AAA.i have been warned before and had post removed just like anyone else that got out of line . i will post again if i have a question or answer about the topic at hand ...just because you don't like my point of view does not make you right , but it does not make me wrong either...


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## huntfourfun (Aug 26, 2011)

TTom said:


> I remain unimpressed with the argument about atheism being devoid of belief in god, I find it at best a semantic battle.
> 
> Lacking a belief is another dodge.
> Because Atheists (as a group) are anything but lacking in an opinion (belief) about the existence of god. The page after page protesting against the possibility of the existence of god speak loud and long about how much they lack an opinion (belief) about god.
> ...



Would you believe I'm an agnostic atheist?


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## mtnwoman (Aug 26, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> its a public forum so i post in there , just like religious folks post in AAA.i have been warned before and had post removed just like anyone else that got out of line . i will post again if i have a question or answer about the topic at hand ...just because you don't like my point of view does not make you right , but it does not make me wrong either...



I don't want you to quit posting anywhere.

I was just responding to something you said, that all Christians think they are right....of course they do, everybody even nonchristians think they are right about the way they think, don't they? Everybody I know thinks they are right....that's not abnormal.


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## hummdaddy (Aug 26, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I don't want you to quit posting anywhere.
> 
> I was just responding to something you said, that all Christians think they are right....of course they do, everybody even nonchristians think they are right about the way they think, don't they? Everybody I know thinks they are right....that's not abnormal.



no i don't know whats right . nobody does until they die .. that is the truth


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## huntfourfun (Aug 26, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> no i don't know whats right . nobody does until they die .. that is the truth



That is exactly why I have accepted all religions as being right.........you can't go wrong!  I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior while wearing a Yamaka on my pilgrimage to Mecca!  I'm sure God will not judge me......right?


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## mtnwoman (Aug 26, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> no i don't know whats right . nobody does until they die .. that is the truth



That's the truth as you see it.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 26, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> no i don't know whats right . nobody does until they die .. that is the truth



If it's nothing at all, will they know it??


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## mtnwoman (Aug 27, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> If it's nothing at all, will they know it??



nope i'll just be dead and that's it, but if'n I'm right?


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## bullethead (Aug 27, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> nope i'll just be dead and that's it, but if'n I'm right?



Why only two choices? Dead or Jesus...what if everyone should have been worshiping something else the whole time and your neither just dead or with Jesus? Maybe we all have it wrong?


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## hummdaddy (Aug 27, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Why only two choices? Dead or Jesus...what if everyone should have been worshiping something else the whole time and your neither just dead or with Jesus? Maybe we all have it wrong?[/QUOTE


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## hummdaddy (Aug 27, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Maybe we all have it wrong?



x's 2


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## vowell462 (Aug 27, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Why only two choices? Dead or Jesus...what if everyone should have been worshiping something else the whole time and your neither just dead or with Jesus? Maybe we all have it wrong?



This is something that always flows through my head. We really just have no idea. Out of all the religious practices, how do we know the ONE you believe is correct?


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## ambush80 (Aug 27, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> This is something that always flows through my head. We really just have no idea. Out of all the religious practices, how do we know the ONE you believe is correct?




They don't.


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## gtparts (Aug 27, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> This is something that always flows through my head. We really just have no idea. Out of all the religious practices, how do we know the ONE you believe is correct?





ambush80 said:


> They don't.



Christians do, but apart from a personal relationship with Him no individual will ever have the certain assurance that can be found in Him. Sounds circular, but until you pursue that relationship with all your heart, mind and soul, until it becomes your passionate desire, until it is your one magnificent obsession, you will not come close to knowing. Scripture tells us that if we draw close to Him, He will draw close to us. 

Now, I fully understand that you have a poor opinion of the Bible. It is very common for non-believers to develop that perspective based on a poor understanding of who God is , how God operates, and how much He loves us. And, quite frankly, the words and actions of those who claim Christ as Lord and Savior, often fail to clearly and accurately represent Him. 

But here is why I know: 
The revelation and principles in Scripture, the reality of following Christ' example, the complete transformation in the lives of others, and the personal relationship I have with the the living God, make me absolutely certain that He IS THE TRUTH, THE WAY, and THE LIFE.


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## Capt Quirk (Aug 27, 2011)

I know I shouldn't be in here, but I'm sort of bored, and there is a pot to be stirred 

Let us _assume_(Yeah, I know what happens when you assume...) that the Judeo Christian religion is the only true way to a Heavenly afterlife. Which church is the correct one? I mean, you have Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, Mormons, Jews... the list is a very long one. Which ones are right? What if you grew up in the wrong church? Should you start stocking up on burn cremes for the ever after?


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## vowell462 (Aug 27, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Christians do, but apart from a personal relationship with Him no individual will ever have the certain assurance that can be found in Him. Sounds circular, but until you pursue that relationship with all your heart, mind and soul, until it becomes your passionate desire, until it is your one magnificent obsession, you will not come close to knowing. Scripture tells us that if we draw close to Him, He will draw close to us.
> 
> Now, I fully understand that you have a poor opinion of the Bible. It is very common for non-believers to develop that perspective based on a poor understanding of who God is , how God operates, and how much He loves us. And, quite frankly, the words and actions of those who claim Christ as Lord and Savior, often fail to clearly and accurately represent Him.
> 
> ...



I understand where you are coming from. And im not here to knock anyone. But you just provided absolutly nothing as a reasonable explanation of how you know this is the truth. Scripture, a personal relationship ( that alone never ceases to amaze me), lives transforming? Basically you are saying that you have a gift of knowing god and someone like me doesnt or doesnt allow it. I see that as pure selfishness.


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## ambush80 (Aug 27, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Christians do, but apart from a personal relationship with Him no individual will ever have the certain assurance that can be found in Him. Sounds circular, but until you pursue that relationship with all your heart, mind and soul, until it becomes your passionate desire, until it is your one magnificent obsession, you will not come close to knowing. Scripture tells us that if we draw close to Him, He will draw close to us.
> 
> Now, I fully understand that you have a poor opinion of the Bible. It is very common for non-believers to develop that perspective based on a poor understanding of who God is , how God operates, and how much He loves us. And, quite frankly, the words and actions of those who claim Christ as Lord and Savior, often fail to clearly and accurately represent Him.
> 
> ...



I could substitute the name of any deity in for "Christ's" and I still couldn't tell you apart.  (Except the Buddhists and Bahais that I've met have been more peaceful than the average Christian).


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## gordon 2 (Aug 28, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I could substitute the name of any deity in for "Christ's" and I still couldn't tell you apart.  (Except the Buddhists and Bahais that I've met have been more peaceful than the average Christian).



You are not looking close enough. ( And why should you look closely?)


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## mtnwoman (Aug 28, 2011)

Capt Quirk said:


> I know I shouldn't be in here, but I'm sort of bored, and there is a pot to be stirred
> 
> Let us _assume_(Yeah, I know what happens when you assume...) that the Judeo Christian religion is the only true way to a Heavenly afterlife. Which church is the correct one? I mean, you have Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, Mormons, Jews... the list is a very long one. Which ones are right? What if you grew up in the wrong church? Should you start stocking up on burn cremes for the ever after?



Among the ones you have listed, Baptists are protestants first off. But the other ones you've listed all believe at least one basic fact....Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have ever lasting life and that means they are saved.....except the orthodox jews who have been temporarily blinded to graft in the gentiles into the vine (Jesus), which is everyone else that isn't a jew...(is a gentile) Messianic Jews have converted to believe Jesus is the Saviour.

Every person I ever talk to (almost) believes some scriptures a little differently, that's ok, that does not hinder salvation. We don't have to know/understand/agree on every thing in the bible, (impossible). To be saved you simply have to believe that Jesus is who He says He is and He died on the cross for your forgiveness.....the rest will come naturally or should I say supernaturally.


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## Capt Quirk (Aug 28, 2011)

So, the Protestants and the Catholics are pretty much the same, they are all Christian?


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## ambush80 (Aug 28, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> You are not looking close enough. ( And why should you look closely?)



I'm surprised you don't give me more credit for having carefully scrutinized the different religions.  Have you ever been a Buddhist, Gordon?  I would say that most Christians were born into their belief and are indeed the ones who don't look closely enough, and I can think of a hundred reasons why they should.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 28, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I'm surprised you don't give me more credit for having carefully scrutinized the different religions.  Have you ever been a Buddhist, Gordon?  I would say that most Christians were born into their belief and are indeed the ones who don't look closely enough and I can think of a hundred reasons why they should.



Unless you believe that people's Gods and religions don't influence their cultures and societies than you are correct you can substitute Christ for any diety. But I still think you have not looked enough. And I give you lots of credit, I know you don't say things just to flame, you have reasoned things out from observation. My point is your observation in this case is not sufficent.

I have never been a buddhist. I have had friends, now moved away  that were/are. Also I now people in my community that are muslim if that counts for anything.
But I have studied and talked to people from other faiths and religions and denominations as my life so far has permitted... I took three yrs off the maintread to do this many yrs ago.

I would suggest that christians look closely at other faiths perhaps in proportion or a little more than other faiths look at christianity... I have never seen evidence that Shinto prompts its faithfull to study Islam? 

I suggest that christians have looked extremely closely at other faiths and religions--now many who call themselves individually christians couldn't care less...but not most because that is not what christianity is about. Christians before their faith and for their ancestors, were once everything and into everything and anything, but now are one thing or one people into one thing. When they see the religious and spiritual world around them they are not indifferent foreigners. 

Your hundred reasons why christians should study and know about other faiths are not outside of the concerns of christians. As well as haveing studied other faiths and religions and the history of spiritual beliefs many christians study and are very interested in inter-denominational issues. What accounts for them; Why and how they came to be and how they influence efforts and behaviours. As well christians have a just interest in studying and bringing to light heresies within their ranks.

Now that Buddhist and Bahais seem more peaceful to you that Christians is not a good reasoning. Which Buddhist to which Christians do you compare? I have known Bahais and they claim to be a very peaceful and inclusive people who know themselves as presently persecuted. I have no witness other than this in their daily lives. I know of no society that has its base from their faith.

Now you say, or you seem to sugest that Christians are  violent to the respect of reason and peace. Some are and you are correct to see this. There are many in christianity ready to  claim  salvation and slavery to the Prince of Peace, but are always at the ready to be in the army of the Shovel in the Face to "our" Enemies.

In christianity's denominations their are doctrines that influences behaviour. Take the case of the doctrine of Salvation for example and the slants given to salvation by faith alone and by works.  The degrees of slant or emphisis will affect christian society differently for some compared to others. Now in such case it is easy to see hypocracy, but really their is a balance.

 I suggest that your assessment that Christ  and christianity can be substituted  to any deity and any faith is not a balanced view. Ancestral Kami is just not similar to Abraham. And in Abraham there is reason that reason alone does not know.


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## JFS (Aug 28, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Sounds circular, but until you pursue that relationship with all your heart, mind and soul, until it becomes your passionate desire, until it is your one magnificent obsession, you will not come close to knowing.



There is no doubt there is a subjective appeal, but the same is true for most religions, from christians to islam to the Heaven's Gate cult. Believing in Santa is fun too.   Doesn't make any of them objectively correct.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 28, 2011)

Capt Quirk said:


> So, the Protestants and the Catholics are pretty much the same, they are all Christian?



Yes, Catholics and Protestants are Christians...well let's say some are, but yes.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 28, 2011)

JFS said:


> There is no doubt there is a subjective appeal, but the same is true for most religions, from christians to islam to the Heaven's Gate cult. Believing in Santa is fun too.   Doesn't make any of them objectively correct.




Depends on where you're standing.

My daddy was Santa and so was his daddy, and I've been santa, too. But then again Santa is a 'spirit', not someone who actually flys thru the air.  You either know 'spirits' or you don't.  Please don't tell me you've never been santa to someone.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 28, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I'm surprised you don't give me more credit for having carefully scrutinized the different religions.  Have you ever been a Buddhist, Gordon?  I would say that most Christians were born into their belief and are indeed the ones who don't look closely enough, and I can think of a hundred reasons why they should.




Since I was born in the USA, I was born into Christianity. And basically that's what started the movement to the USA. 

Have you ever been a Buddhist? or Muslim or Christian? I have no problem with freedom of religion,  most people don't except for Christianity. Christianity is like open season all the time, but for theloveofpete don't insult a muslam, don't even look at them wrong, don't even look at them. I feel like lion bait most of the time around nonbelievers and hear things that they'd never say to a muslim, in fear of.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 28, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Unless you believe that people's Gods and religions don't influence their cultures and societies than you are correct you can substitute Christ for any diety. But I still think you have not looked enough. And I give you lots of credit, I know you don't say things just to flame, you have reasoned things out from observation. My point is your observation in this case is not sufficent.
> 
> I have never been a buddhist. I have had friends, now moved away  that were/are. Also I now people in my community that are muslim if that counts for anything.
> But I have studied and talked to people from other faiths and religions and denominations as my life so far has permitted... I took three yrs off the maintread to do this many yrs ago.
> ...



Great post!!


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## vowell462 (Aug 29, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Since I was born in the USA, I was born into Christianity. And basically that's what started the movement to the USA.
> 
> Have you ever been a Buddhist? or Muslim or Christian? I have no problem with freedom of religion,  most people don't except for Christianity. Christianity is like open season all the time, but for theloveofpete don't insult a muslam, don't even look at them wrong, don't even look at them. I feel like lion bait most of the time around nonbelievers and hear things that they'd never say to a muslim, in fear of.



I dont mind asking a muslim anything. I would treat with respect but I will stand firm on my side of whatever the conversation may be. But, I dont run into nearly as many Muslims In Ga as I do Christians. That may be why you think that.


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## canaday (Aug 29, 2011)

humdaddy,you have quite a discussion going here  ,perhaps the fact that you feel we were created by a supreme being,is actually God dealing with you,have you read and studied the word of God ? since you have so many questions mabye you should,I am a christian,and yes the church has been corrupted in many ways,for that i'm sorry,Get you a new living translation,study bible, and read up ,and may God bless you with that.


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## G5BONECRUSHER (Aug 30, 2011)

hummdaddy,

This is my first time reading this forum and your thread caught my eye and I felt lead to reply. 

First I want to say I do not believe that I am better than you.  I am a Christian. I do know that there are people who claim to be Christians and people who are Christians who think they are or may give the impression that they think they are better than others. There have been times in my life where my actions may have made someone feel that I think I am better than them. I deeply regret that has ever happened. 

You say you are a good man, a family man, a faithful husband, and a good father. I absolutely believe that. I also want you to know that I don’t want to change your mind. I do not have the power to do that only the individual person and God can do that . As a Christian I am not called to change people’s minds . I am called to “tell the Good News”

I know that people telling you about something you don’t believe in can come across as them trying to change your mind. I ask you to maybey think of another way....

If you found something; lets just say its anything and this anything is the most wonderful, freeing, peaceful, joyful, powerful, life changing thing you have ever experienced. This anything was given to you simply if you believed, and you do believe because you have experienced it and know it’s real. There is no cost, it is given to you just because someone loves you. And you found out that it wasn’t just for you, anyone could have it. 

Wouldn’t you want to tell everyone you know, especially the people you love the most. 

Maybe the people who are talking to you are trying to tell you about Christ because they have experienced the life changing, real, awesome, forgiveness, and grace that was given them in Jesus Christ. Maybe they don't realize they are coming across as judgmental.

 Maybe they Love you so much they don’t want you to miss out on knowing him.

 I believe every word in the bible is from the one true God. I believe that Jesus Christ is God, and the Son of God. I believe that the one true God created man for a relationship with him, that he loves his creation deeply, and is pleased when we choose to have a relationship with him. I believe created man with the ability to choose to have a relationship with him. I believe He is a perfect and holy God and we are imperfect and unholy and therefore we cannot have a relationship with him. Because he loves us so much He created a way that we could become holy, not by our own works but by sending his own Son who is God to show his love for use by sacrificing himself as the atonement for our sins.  I do believe that faith in Jesus Christ and entrusting my life to him is the only way to eternal salvation. That is the definition of a "Christian"

I feel like I am a good father, faithful husband, and a good man, but when I compare myself to Holy perfection I see that I am an utter failure on my own. But because he lives I am forgiven and I am able to have a personal relationship with him. I still fail in my own strength, and I am a sinner in the eyes of men but not in the eyes of God only because  of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

 I am no “better” than anyone. My past present and future sin put the nails in his hands.  I have no question whether Christ is real. He is just as alive as I am and He is changing my life for the better daily. I know nothing that can compare to the peace and joy he has given me…

I don’t know you but when I read the title to your thread I had to respond and tell you.

 I Love You.

 And I don’t want to change your mind but I had to take the opportunity to tell you how wonderful Jesus has been to me and I am probably a much worse “man” than you are. 

I hope that you can experience what I have experienced by knowing him.  

Clay Browning


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 30, 2011)

canaday said:


> humdaddy,you have quite a discussion going here  ,perhaps the fact that you feel we were created by a supreme being,is actually God dealing with you,have you read and studied the word of God ? since you have so many questions mabye you should,I am a christian,and yes the church has been corrupted in many ways,for that i'm sorry,Get you a new living translation,study bible, and read up ,and may God bless you with that.



Yeah, the newer and more translated the better! The 110th translation in English, NOW, it's perfect.


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## bzb (Aug 30, 2011)

simpleman30 said:


> If you don't believe in a lake of fire, you'd better be right.



If you're right AND the Romans/Greeks were right, are you going to hedge your bets by having your family place two coins over your eyes at your funeral?


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## JFS (Aug 31, 2011)

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> If you found something; lets just say its anything and this anything is the most wonderful, freeing, peaceful, joyful, powerful, life changing thing you have ever experienced.



Or you can take the red pill.  Sometimes the truth hurts.


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## G5BONECRUSHER (Sep 1, 2011)

JFS said:


> Or you can take the red pill.  Sometimes the truth hurts.



The truth does hurt sometimes... There is no truth in the red pill...I prefer not to go where that rabbit hole leads.


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## realbowhunter (Sep 5, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> Woodsman69 said:
> 
> 
> > I keep hearing about these mythical Christians that think they are better than others but I have NEVER met one. In all my years around church I have never met a Christian who really thought that they were better than anyone else. I have had my personal stand against sin interpreted as thinking I am better than others but thats just not the case. Just because some Christians refuse to join you in your sin does not indicate that they feel superior to you. All of the self righteous superior feeling people I know are lost, on their way to the lake of fire and full of themselves.[/QUOT
> ...


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## mtnwoman (Sep 5, 2011)

realbowhunter said:


> hummdaddy said:
> 
> 
> > have you ever seen a ghost
> ...


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## hummdaddy (Sep 5, 2011)

realbowhunter said:


> hummdaddy said:
> 
> 
> > have you ever seen a ghost
> ...


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## mtnwoman (Sep 6, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> my now 3 1/2 year old when he was younger and still does talks about his nana (granma),my mother which died before he was born... we had never talked about her or showed him pictures of her , but when we showed him pictures of my family he could pick her out ,and name her ...he use to play with someone in his crib all the time , that was not there ... there are still moments that we feel she is still around ....



I believe in the supernatural. My spirit, not my flesh, connects me to the Spirit of God, the 'unseen' Spirit of God.
God is not natural but supernatural. I believe in angels on earth, too, and when there is no limit put on that as children are blessed to not be jaded, I believe they do see angels or other spirits. Christ says to come to Him as a child.
I believe there are evil spirits, too. The legion of satan for example. They surround us.

I love this scripture....read it when you can.

2 Kings 2:12
And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
2 Kings 2:11-13 (in Context) 2 Kings 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Kings 2:15
And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.
2 Kings 2:14-16 (in Context) 2 Kings 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Kings 6:17
And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
2 Kings 6:16-18 (in Context) 2 Kings 6 (Whole Chapter)

In this story, there were just Elisha and one soldier going to take over the city, and the one soldier said we can't do this alone....God's unseen army was surrounding them to aid them and that was revealed to him. Great story.

And that's why I believe in the supernatural, good and evil.


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## Greaserbilly (Sep 16, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> i don't believe the bible ... i believe there was something that created us , but not like the bible says



Well, hold on then.
If you do believe in a sentient creative power, what makes your belief in same any more or any less valid than any other interpretation of that sentient creative power?

Just curious.


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## atlashunter (Sep 16, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> nope i'll just be dead and that's it, but if'n I'm right?



You'll be dead and your life will have been spent believing and passing on one of the greatest pack of lies in human history. Not to mention going through life thinking people who don't share your beliefs will burn forever in an afterlife that turned out to be a myth.


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