# The Enlightenment



## ambush80 (Dec 28, 2018)

I just started listening to this interview but so far it seems...enlightening.  At around the 10 minute mark the bishop says that "Hyper-individualism, hyper rationalism" are the "Dark side" of the Enlightenment.  What do you guys think?  So far they seem to be arguing for the merits of "Revelation".  I'm anxious to see what they say.  What are your best arguments for the validity and utility of revelation?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 29, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> What are your best arguments for the validity and utility of revelation?


You don't know my answer.


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## ambush80 (Dec 29, 2018)

gemcgrew said:


> You don't know my answer.



No I don't.  What is it?


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## Spotlite (Jan 1, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> I just started listening to this interview but so far it seems...enlightening.  At around the 10 minute mark the bishop says that "Hyper-individualism, hyper rationalism" are the "Dark side" of the Enlightenment.  What do you guys think?  So far they seem to be arguing for the merits of "Revelation".  I'm anxious to see what they say.  What are your best arguments for the validity and utility of revelation?


I could understand the bishop saying that hyper individualism and rationalism as being the dark side, as it would or could stem from uncertainty or doubt?


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## ambush80 (Jan 4, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> I could understand the bishop saying that hyper individualism and rationalism as being the dark side, as it would or could stem from uncertainty or doubt?



What do you mean?


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## Spotlite (Jan 4, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> What do you mean?



Is 'hyper" anything really based on sound, thought-out reason? From the Bishop`s stand-point the dark side of "hyper" could mean there are some folks just making noise about something rather than honestly weighing it out.       

That may not be the bishop's concern, but it is why I can understand him saying that.


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## Israel (Feb 2, 2019)

JBP makes interesting observations vis a vis enlightenment in the following...but that exposition begins at 6:06 with much preceding that point (that is not without relevance and merit). Nevertheless the "meat" I find at 6:06 and thereafter. In particular regarding the current topic of enlightenment.

Although I have a hope for a further "light" for him and from him, he lays out a preliminary case for both the existence of enlightenment, with no less the caution of what is manifest to its ignoring.

"



"


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## ambush80 (Feb 2, 2019)

The whole thing is really worth watching.






Sam:  "We should be able to agree that having a worldview guided by a continuous, honest engagement with reality, as far as we can apprehend it, is better than having a worldview solidified or anchored to unchanging ideas that were born of people who had none of our present tools, none of our present insights, into anything."


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## WaltL1 (Feb 2, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> The whole thing is really worth watching.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Sam:  "We should be able to agree that having a worldview guided by a continuous engagement with reality, as far as we can apprehend it, is better than having a worldview solidified or anchored to unchanging ideas that were born of people who had none of our present tools, none of our present insights, into anything."


I haven't watched the vid and I probably should before commenting but.....
We've heard numerous Christians tell us here that based on their experiences, God existing IS reality.
To me, that seems to be a major flaw in this particular part of Sam's argument.
For a Christian, God is reality and they are continuously engaged with that reality....


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## ambush80 (Feb 2, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> I haven't watched the vid and I probably should before commenting but.....
> We've heard numerous Christians tell us here that based on their experiences, God existing IS reality.
> To me, that seems to be a major flaw in this particular part of Sam's argument.
> For a Christian, God is reality and they are continuously engaged with that reality....




"....as far as we can apprehend it"

That part is more important.  We should use the best resources available to us to make decisions.  The wisdom of loving your neighbors has demonstrable value,  not eating shellfish doesn't.  Believing in Heaven and He11 doesn't either.  Belief in them results in a net negative effect on the individual and society.


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## Spotlite (Feb 2, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> "....as far as we can apprehend it"
> 
> That part is more important.  We should use the best resources available to us to make decisions.  The wisdom of loving your neighbors has demonstrable value,  not eating shellfish doesn't.  Believing in Heaven and He11 doesn't either.  Belief in them results in a net negative effect on the individual and society.


Elaborate on the negative effects of the individual and society, what is the source for those results and how are they measured?

Many, including myself would strongly disagree with you. Many feel that the lack of a spiritual life leads to the type of society we are now seeing more and more of, such as the latest development in New York.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 3, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> "....as far as we can apprehend it"
> 
> That part is more important.  We should use the best resources available to us to make decisions.  The wisdom of loving your neighbors has demonstrable value,  not eating shellfish doesn't.  Believing in Heaven and He11 doesn't either.  Belief in them results in a net negative effect on the individual and society.


I think my observation still stands?
A Christian apprehends/understands/perceives that God is reality...
I guess my point is while that particular statement would find agreement with you and me... its not you and me or our point of view that he's addressing ?


> has demonstrable value,  not eating shellfish doesn't.


I ate some oysters one time that would have had demonstrative value to me if 
I hadn't


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## WaltL1 (Feb 3, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> "....as far as we can apprehend it"
> 
> That part is more important.  We should use the best resources available to us to make decisions.  The wisdom of loving your neighbors has demonstrable value,  not eating shellfish doesn't.  Believing in Heaven and He11 doesn't either.  Belief in them results in a net negative effect on the individual and society.


I'm in a devil's advocate mood today so Im going to challenge you again -
While certainly you could provide examples of negative effects, Ive got to believe there are also examples where the belief in heaven and he11 had a positive effect on at least society.
Theres a couple billion Christians. It would be pretty hard to claim that the fear of he11 or a desire for heaven didn't stop a few car jackings or strong arm robberies or......


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## bullethead (Feb 3, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> Elaborate on the negative effects of the individual and society, what is the source for those results and how are they measured?
> 
> Many, including myself would strongly disagree with you. Many feel that the lack of a spiritual life leads to the type of society we are now seeing more and more of, such as the latest development in New York.


I have been with the same woman since I am 15yrs old. Never strayed. Never a speeding ticket. Never arrested. Raised 3 Sons. 2 successful businesses. Well known and seemingly liked in my community. Never tried a drug. Never smoked a cigarette. I have never had a cup of coffee. True friends I have do not fill one hand. They have been my best friends for over 30 years. Yet I can say that I know and am friendly with 100's.

I am positive that the lack of a spiritual life has not had a shred of negative impact on me in any way, shape or form. If anything I could make a case that I am a better person without it.
I know many a holy roller that has not led the life I have. I am pretty confident in saying that as far as being an honest, productive, trustworthy husband, Father and member of society I would rank in the upper echelon. No skeletons in the closet. No scandalous past deeds. No prior actions that could be used or judged against me. I know a lot of spiritual people who can't touch that....what is their excuse if in fact spiritual has ANYTHING to do with it???

Now, and I say this sincerely. There are many people just like me, and many more better and many more worse and their spiritual involvement varies as much as the range of people do. 
My point....spirituality has nothing to do with anything universally. If it did, EVERY spiritual person would be a just a notch below the source where they think that spirit comes from. And, flatley .....history and action shows they are not.


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## Israel (Feb 3, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> "....as far as we can apprehend it"
> 
> That part is more important.  We should use the best resources available to us to make decisions.  The wisdom of loving your neighbors has demonstrable value,  not eating shellfish doesn't.  Believing in Heaven and He11 doesn't either.  Belief in them results in a net negative effect on the individual and society.



"Belief in them results in a net negative effect on the individual and society"

There is neither compulsion nor interest in arguing against that assertion. But, how foolish would a man be to not recognize that _as assertion_? How much of_ cake_ can one retain in the eating?

The broadness of that assertion is also neither of any interest. When, several years ago a friend at work handed another a brief intro to Sam Harris (in whom he also found reason for recommendation) via a few pages under his (Sam's) authorship on "Ethics", the reader concluded he was just another empty husk peddling dust when coming to this statement by Harris "my study of ethics has caused me to be a better man". That's as close to what was written as memory serves. But, as Dr. Steve Brule would recommend..."check it out".

"Better man". Who either isn't or hasn't been the one falling for that trope? (I would have written "tired trope" as enamored as I am to having some appearance as literary, but _tired trope_ has itself become a tired trope) So, I'll be_ better_ than that. Ha ha.

Yes, men are continually in pursuit (for the most part) of being "the better man". (Talk about a broad assertion!) Religious folks, no less (nor more _really_) often hold this out as a hope with which to capture some. "_You_ can be better!" by following this way. The threat of inadequacies being _eventually_ and unremittingly manifestly displayed has some potency to initiate a communal engagement (with perks accruing to those at the top of _that _pyramid scheme) a "getting the engine running" for the conveyance of those drivers, again, _at the top._

But, this _engine of commerce_ is no less the same as found in every endeavor of man. Religious hucksters bear no more, at least per any justice a man might levy, accusation. All _systems_...work the same. Those "at the top" (or imagining they are) always hold out (as they seek the perfect balance to their own sustaining) what is the mixture of gas (of some cost) and air (of seeming no cost) to keep combustion going. The fires/sparks of envy and greed need no initiation...being ubiquitous. Enough substance must be surrendered to keep those laboring (who sustain the toppers) in hope they too have a shot "at the top".


Contentment, the greatest enemy to those astride others, then becomes both weapon and enticement. You don't have it (weapon) I can give it (enticement). A man's a fool who sees only the carrot and stick driving others...never considering how he is driven entirely the same. 

How far does one have to look on Sam Harris's (or name any other's...JBP, or our _great religious_ authors) book covers to find a price? 

Does food _really taste_ better on a yacht or at an award's ceremony? Is conversation really better in a mahogany dining room than on a subway platform smelling of urine? If you listen too long to the man in the strait jacket...you may well end up like him! (Or, that man carrying the cross.) It's funny to watch and hear those who would holler at him, "but, you're criminal!" as though he was unaware of his appearance.

But it really is _this thing_ that has been so long assessed as having "no cost" (and therefore entirely neglected as inconsequential) in the combustion that is solely, and _always has been_ the true focus. (look a squirrel! and _another assertion_!) Men so rarely ever think of running out of air. (Do _you hear_ those murmurings that I might quickly do the same?) Death is most often relegated to metaphor observed only _for_ others. (How many assertions will this fool make?)

Sauce for goose and gander alike. Of course there's plenty here to take shots at.

"Pull!".
Or not.

For number of players type "Zero" and then hit enter.

"Of myself I can do NOTHING"


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 3, 2019)




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## bullethead (Feb 3, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> I'm in a devil's advocate mood today so Im going to challenge you again -
> While certainly you could provide examples of negative effects, Ive got to believe there are also examples where the belief in heaven and he11 had a positive effect on at least society.
> Theres a couple billion Christians. It would be pretty hard to claim that the fear of he11 or a desire for heaven didn't stop a few car jackings or strong arm robberies or......


Back in the 1970's I remember Pyramid Power.
Literally thin metal frames in the shapes of Pyramids were marketed and sold to ease headaches,  stress, have joints feel better, bring luck, increase positive outlook....you name it, The Pyramid Power helped.

Do you think the positive effects were REALLY from a couple of metal rods the buyer pieced together in the shape of a 3D triangle that came in a box, that was mass produced in Taiwan and sold in Kmart??


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## bullethead (Feb 3, 2019)

Apparently still going on today AND responsible for all the positive effects of and on humans still to this day.....
https://www.healingenergytools.com/pyramid-work/


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 3, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Back in the 1970's I remember Pyramid Power.
> Literally thin metal frames in the shapes of Pyramids were marketed and sold to ease headaches,  stress, have joints feel better, bring luck, increase positive outlook....you name it, The Pyramid Power helped.
> 
> Do you think the positive effects were REALLY from a couple of metal rods the buyer pieced together in the shape of a 3D triangle that came in a box, that was mass produced in Taiwan and sold in Kmart??


There was a chiropractor here in my hometown that had a glass pyramid on top of his office where he would take "selected" patients to bask in the power of the pyramid. Back about twenty years ago, one of them (married lady who got caught absorbing pyramid power by her husband,) said that he raped her 14 times up there. Every week when she went back for another appointment, he raped her again.


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## bullethead (Feb 3, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> There was a chiropractor here in my hometown that had a glass pyramid on top of his office where he would take "selected" patients to bask in the power of the pyramid. Back about twenty years ago, one of them (married lady who got caught absorbing pyramid power by her husband,) said that he raped her 14 times up there. Every week when she went back for another appointment, he raped her again.


Oh, lolololol, not laughing that she got raped, but she went back 13 more times after the first!! Priceless...got caught..

I can't help but take note of all the dead Egyptians in Pyramids too


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 3, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Oh, lolololol, not laughing that she got raped, but she went back 13 more times after the first!!
> 
> I can't help but take note of all the dead Egyptians in Pyramids too


Hint: there was no rape involved until her husband caught wind of her "treatments."


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## Israel (Feb 3, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> View attachment 957907


ha!

If it's alive after lopping off its own head...doesn't much matter how _you_ consider it...to good or evil. It's first testimony is as something way different than previously considered in the realm of possibility.

Yeah...Jesus ain't skeered of looking evil.


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## ambush80 (Feb 3, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> Elaborate on the negative effects of the individual and society, what is the source for those results and how are they measured?
> 
> Many, including myself would strongly disagree with you. Many feel that the lack of a spiritual life leads to the type of society we are now seeing more and more of, such as the latest development in New York.



The obvious examples are flying planes into buildings and campaigning against stem cell research.  On the individual level I have observed that there's a psychological switch that gets thrown in people's minds when they think of themselves as saved and others as unsaved.  It's divisive.  

I'm not talking about abandoning "spirituality" or denying transcendent experience.  I'm not even talking about denying the useful parts of mythologies that have been shaped by developing cultures and societies and neither is Sam.


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## Israel (Feb 3, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> I'm in a devil's advocate mood today so Im going to challenge you again -
> While certainly you could provide examples of negative effects, Ive got to believe there are also examples where the belief in heaven and he11 had a positive effect on at least society.
> Theres a couple billion Christians. It would be pretty hard to claim that the fear of he11 or a desire for heaven didn't stop a few car jackings or strong arm robberies or......




I think you already generated some responses.

Is it "good people (who wouldn't do this anyway) not needing such concepts for restraint"?
But, if they're "good"...then how does one account for the accusation they have this "bad" thing (their belief in heaven and ****)? Therefore man is basically "good"..._except_ for that man who has been infected with what is conveniently called superstition...he's...well...the one that's not quite (at least) as good. Ha ha ha. (WE can make him better...nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh)

Or, are they "bad" people...needing a restraint beyond their perceived own natural inclinations (that would, otherwise car jack and strong arm aunt Thelma at the drop of hat) except for such restraint? Does aunt Thelma much care the why of what is necessary for her to drive to Piggly Wiggly or walk to cash her SS check?

Or...is it just their fear of being caught and jailed for breaking the law? (even though they maintain it is something else? "No, no, I desire heaven and fear ****!") That, were it not for the law, they would also surely be pistol whipping Thelma? (But, that would also testify...if only fear of law is at work...that man is basically in need of restraining by something super...and by nature...given to bad behavior if unrestrained)

Then you have the case of the insane. "I am good, know what good is, act in accord with it, but others...are not, and in need of some form of restraint...even if it be fear of law.

Yeah...


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## WaltL1 (Feb 3, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Back in the 1970's I remember Pyramid Power.
> Literally thin metal frames in the shapes of Pyramids were marketed and sold to ease headaches,  stress, have joints feel better, bring luck, increase positive outlook....you name it, The Pyramid Power helped.
> 
> Do you think the positive effects were REALLY from a couple of metal rods the buyer pieced together in the shape of a 3D triangle that came in a box, that was mass produced in Taiwan and sold in Kmart??


Nope I think it was a total scam.
BUT.....
If psychology it gave them a better outlook, made their joints better (rolled too tight?), relieved stress etc. did Pyramid Power work as advertised?


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## WaltL1 (Feb 3, 2019)

bullethead said:


> I have been with the same woman since I am 15yrs old. Never strayed. Never a speeding ticket. Never arrested. Raised 3 Sons. 2 successful businesses. Well known and seemingly liked in my community. Never tried a drug. Never smoked a cigarette. I have never had a cup of coffee. True friends I have do not fill one hand. They have been my best friends for over 30 years. Yet I can say that I know and am friendly with 100's.
> 
> I am positive that the lack of a spiritual life has not had a shred of negative impact on me in any way, shape or form. If anything I could make a case that I am a better person without it.
> I know many a holy roller that has not led the life I have. I am pretty confident in saying that as far as being an honest, productive, trustworthy husband, Father and member of society I would rank in the upper echelon. No skeletons in the closet. No scandalous past deeds. No prior actions that could be used or judged against me. I know a lot of spiritual people who can't touch that....what is their excuse if in fact spiritual has ANYTHING to do with it???
> ...





> I have been with the same woman since I am 15yrs old. Never strayed. Never a speeding ticket. Never arrested. Raised 3 Sons. 2 successful businesses. Well known and seemingly liked in my community. Never tried a drug. Never smoked a cigarette. I have never had a cup of coffee.
> No skeletons in the closet. No scandalous past deeds. No prior actions that could be used or judged against me.


Its a miracle we think so much alike on this subject cuz buddy we are polar opposites in everything else


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## bullethead (Feb 3, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Nope I think it was a total scam.
> BUT.....
> If psychology it gave them a better outlook, made their joints better (rolled too tight?), relieved stress etc. did Pyramid Power work as advertised?


Band aid to a deeper problem


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## bullethead (Feb 3, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Its a miracle we think so much alike on this subject cuz buddy we are polar opposites in everything else




And Walt, THAT is my point!!!!!

Me and you, and add in everyone else that is a regular participant in here regardless of their beliefs.
I am certain each end of the spectrum and everything in between is represented.
Spirits, pyramid power, rabbits feet, mighty oak stump are all anecdotal tidbits that do not consistently offer the solutions to our problems or successes,  actions or thoughts.
As different as we all are in some things we are the same in others.

If all 1.2 Billion Christians were pillars of their community, were on the same level morally, never been in trouble, all have been faithful and a hundred thousand other examples....Id say the spirit is involved.
But....we all know that is far from the case.


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## ambush80 (Feb 3, 2019)

Israel said:


> I think you already generated some responses.
> 
> Is it "good people (who wouldn't do this anyway) not needing such concepts for restraint"?
> But, if they're "good"...then how does one account for the accusation they have this "bad" thing (their belief in heaven and ****)? Therefore man is basically "good"..._except_ for that man who has been infected with what is conveniently called superstition...he's...well...the one that's not quite (at least) as good. Ha ha ha. (WE can make him better...nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh)
> ...




"How effective....?" better and better each day as secularism and reason get more refined and widespread and replace religious dogmatism .


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 3, 2019)

bullethead said:


> I have been with the same woman since I am 15yrs old. Never strayed. Never a speeding ticket. Never arrested. Raised 3 Sons. 2 successful businesses. Well known and seemingly liked in my community. Never tried a drug. Never smoked a cigarette. I have never had a cup of coffee. True friends I have do not fill one hand. They have been my best friends for over 30 years. Yet I can say that I know and am friendly with 100's.
> 
> I am positive that the lack of a spiritual life has not had a shred of negative impact on me in any way, shape or form. If anything I could make a case that I am a better person without it.
> I know many a holy roller that has not led the life I have. I am pretty confident in saying that as far as being an honest, productive, trustworthy husband, Father and member of society I would rank in the upper echelon. No skeletons in the closet. No scandalous past deeds. No prior actions that could be used or judged against me. I know a lot of spiritual people who can't touch that....what is their excuse if in fact spiritual has ANYTHING to do with it???
> ...


What makes me mad is that Christians assume some kind of moral superiority over atheist, and it's simply not true.  I'd venture to say that in your case, you have a moral superiority over them, because you don't use God's house as a means to exalt yourself and display your so called good deeds, where everything, EVERYTHING is done for men to see.


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## ambush80 (Feb 3, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> What makes me mad is that Christians assume some kind of moral superiority over atheist, and it's simply not true.  I'd venture to say that in your case, you have a moral superiority over them, because you don't use God's house as a means to exalt yourself and display your so called good deeds, where everything, EVERYTHING is done for men to see.



Furthermore, he doesn't have a system by which he can be forgiven his trespasses.  He accepts that he alone is to blame (not Satan) and that he alone is responsible to make things right.


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## bullethead (Feb 3, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> What makes me mad is that Christians assume some kind of moral superiority over atheist, and it's simply not true.  I'd venture to say that in your case, you have a moral superiority over them, because you don't use God's house as a means to exalt yourself and display your so called good deeds, where everything, EVERYTHING is done for men to see.


The moral superiority complex is not just over non atheists, but all non Christians, other Christian denominations, and individual Christian's within their own circle.
These are all clues at how individual this higher power stuff is. 

I am saved, you are not.
I am a REAL Christian, they are not.
We see it daily in here and all throughout life.

It is not limited to Christians or any club. It is individual when it narrows down to the end.


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## bullethead (Feb 3, 2019)

One minute "WE" are over a billion. Might makes right. 2000 years of blah blah blah. We are special.
The next minute "THEY" are not real Christians.
Not all are predestined to be with God.

I have never heard one Christian say that they are part of the not real crowd, part of the non elect, or are part of the doesn't get it crowd. It is ALWAYS someone else.


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## ambush80 (Feb 3, 2019)

bullethead said:


> The moral superiority complex is not just over non atheists, but all non Christians, other Christian denominations, and individual Christian's within their own circle.
> These are all clues at how individual this higher power stuff is.
> 
> I am saved, you are not.
> ...



These are the more subtle and nefarious costs of belief in the power and legitimacy of personal revelation.  It is impervious to correction by reasoned argument or physical evidence.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 3, 2019)

Israel said:


> I think you already generated some responses.
> 
> Is it "good people (who wouldn't do this anyway) not needing such concepts for restraint"?
> But, if they're "good"...then how does one account for the accusation they have this "bad" thing (their belief in heaven and ****)? Therefore man is basically "good"..._except_ for that man who has been infected with what is conveniently called superstition...he's...well...the one that's not quite (at least) as good. Ha ha ha. (WE can make him better...nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh)
> ...





> But, if they're "good"...then how does one account for the accusation they have this "bad" thing (their belief in heaven and ****)?


I personally don't buy into that belief in heaven, he11, God or gods in and of itself is a "bad" thing. Its where they go from there that can fall under good or bad.
As for the "Or is it" examples, I think some people would fall into either scenario.


> even if it be fear of law.


Isnt fear really the "power/backbone" of law?
Laws at the very least can be really inconvenient. If there was no fear of the punishment for breaking them...…. even what we describe as "good" people (or at least more of them) would be breaking them. 
"This 35mph speed limit is going to make us late for church. What? No repercussions for speeding? Step on it Martha....…"


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## WaltL1 (Feb 3, 2019)

bullethead said:


> The moral superiority complex is not just over non atheists, but all non Christians, other Christian denominations, and individual Christian's within their own circle.
> These are all clues at how individual this higher power stuff is.
> 
> I am saved, you are not.
> ...


This I where I separate following organized religion from simply belief in God or gods.
In my mind God or gods may or may not foster those type of attitudes but theres no question that organized religion does.


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## Spotlite (Feb 3, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> The obvious examples are flying planes into buildings and campaigning against stem cell research.  On the individual level I have observed that there's a psychological switch that gets thrown in people's minds when they think of themselves as saved and others as unsaved.  It's divisive.
> 
> I'm not talking about abandoning "spirituality" or denying transcendent experience.  I'm not even talking about denying the useful parts of mythologies that have been shaped by developing cultures and societies and neither is Sam.


So at what point do we separate the “Charles Manson’s” or any other extremist from their claims?

Most of us have enough common sense to realize the difference in a tool and the individual(s) using them.

Those with an agenda such as the left, can’t. And what I mean by that, gun control would be an analogy to think on.

But back to my question, it appears you have a formed opinion on the “negative effects”, which is fine, but no real source to substantiate it?


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## ambush80 (Feb 3, 2019)

Here are a few reasons why I think that the continued cultural reverence for religiosity is regressive.  The fact that a person running for office can tout their religiosity and use it as a platform is troubling.  Conversely, the fact that if a candidate said that they were a secular Humanist, it would reflect poorly on their competency as a public servant.  Also the fact that as recently as GHW Bush and to some extent Obama the Presidency has relied on religious leaders to help them shape policy, policy that in GHW's case gave him the confidence to lead us into war, is trobling as well.  I would prefer secular people who base their actions on reason as opposed to revelation or religious mandate be in charge of those decisions.  Religiosity is also a factor in why we are involved in the Palestinian/Israeli Conflict to the extent that we are.  There are rational reasons for us to be involved in that conflict but in all honesty, the main reasons most people want us involved are not reason based but faith based.


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## ambush80 (Feb 3, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> So at what point do we separate the “Charles Manson’s” or any other extremist from their claims?
> 
> Most of us have enough common sense to realize the difference in a tool and the individual(s) using them.
> 
> ...




What extremist ideology did Manson hold?  That is a bad example.

We are discussing the negative effects of religion.  I answered your question as best I could.  I offered what I admitted was the worst case scenario.  If by saying "it appears you have a formed opinion on the “negative effects”, which is fine, but no real source to substantiate it?" you mean that there is no correlation between the religious beliefs of Jihadists and their actions then I don't know what else to offer you as proof.  For the last dozen posts Bullet, Walt, and I have cited many other deleterious effects of belief.  Sam talks about the weird sexuality caused by repression that is a direct result of religious belief.  You can say these analyses are wrong but you will have to explain why you think that, but you can't honestly say that I/we haven't given plenty of examples.

In thinking about this I wondered what else has the power to make rational people do irrational things quite like faith based belief.  I thought maybe political ideology, which by the way works much like religion and maybe love or lust.  

If you want to discuss the benefits to the individual and society that religious belief offers we can do that as well.  Still, my observation is that the negatives outweigh the positives and I can articulate why I think so.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 3, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> What extremist ideology did Manson hold?  That is a bad example.
> 
> We are discussing the negative effects of religion.  I answered your question as best I could.  I offered what I admitted was the worst case scenario.  If by saying "it appears you have a formed opinion on the “negative effects”, which is fine, but no real source to substantiate it?" you mean that there is no correlation between the religious beliefs of Jihadists and their actions then I don't know what else to offer you as proof.  For the last dozen posts Bullet, Walt, and I have cited many other deleterious effects of belief.  Sam talks about the weird sexuality caused by repression that is a direct result of religious belief.  You can say these analyses are wrong but you will have to explain why you think that, but you can't honestly say that I/we haven't given plenty of examples.
> 
> ...


Manson led his way into preaching and convinced his followers that he was the Man’s son.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 3, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> So at what point do we separate the “Charles Manson’s” or any other extremist from their claims?
> 
> Most of us have enough common sense to realize the difference in a tool and the individual(s) using them.
> 
> ...



I like this analogy of the "tool".  I see religion like a stone axe.  You can still chop a tree down with it but not so well.  We can also make an analogy about the type of person that when faced with the problem of chopping down a tree will choose the stone axe.  There may be many reasons why they choose the stone axe that we  could talk about.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 3, 2019)

bullethead said:


> I have been with the same woman since I am 15yrs old. Never strayed. Never a speeding ticket. Never arrested. Raised 3 Sons. 2 successful businesses. Well known and seemingly liked in my community. Never tried a drug. Never smoked a cigarette. I have never had a cup of coffee. True friends I have do not fill one hand. They have been my best friends for over 30 years. Yet I can say that I know and am friendly with 100's.
> 
> I am positive that the lack of a spiritual life has not had a shred of negative impact on me in any way, shape or form. If anything I could make a case that I am a better person without it.
> I know many a holy roller that has not led the life I have. I am pretty confident in saying that as far as being an honest, productive, trustworthy husband, Father and member of society I would rank in the upper echelon. No skeletons in the closet. No scandalous past deeds. No prior actions that could be used or judged against me. I know a lot of spiritual people who can't touch that....what is their excuse if in fact spiritual has ANYTHING to do with it???
> ...


And I would agree with you 100% bullethead on most of your post as it’s exactly my point when it comes to blaming religion. The only portion I’m not in agreement with is your point that “spirituality has nothing to do with”.....I respect the opinion though. 

In a nutshell, a man jumping off of a building claiming he’s an airplane is and never was an airplane regardless of how much he really believed it.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 3, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> Manson led his way into preaching and convinced his followers that he was the Man’s son.



That's right.  He made up his own religion that people blindly followed because he intuitively knew that is is a powerful way to control people and get them to do bad things.  It can make them do good things, too. But there are good reasons to do good things.  No need to do good things for bad reasons.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 3, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> That's right.  He made up his own religion that people blindly followed because he intuitively knew that is is a powerful way to control people and get them to do bad things.  It can make them do good things, too. But there are good reasons to do good things.  No need to do good things for bad reasons.


And most of our Muslims pals disagree with flying planes into buildings and believe as the rest of the world does, it’s not good, and it’s not spiritual.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Feb 3, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> That's right.  He made up his own religion that people blindly followed because he intuitively knew that is is a powerful way to control people and get them to do bad things.  It can make them do good things, too. But there are good reasons to do good things.  No need to do good things for bad reasons.


Yes. He formed a religion that he used to control young people. Isolation, group immersion, and constant preaching soon convinced his followers that the Beatles were sending him messages through their music related to his instructions in his role as a savior during the coming race war, and his role as ruler in the aftermath of it. 

The same tactics used by most organized religions, just a more undiluted version. Yet, every one of those kids believed him and his message just as much as any other religious person believes in his own religion.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 3, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> And most of our Muslims pals disagree with flying planes into buildings and believe as the rest of the world does, it’s not good, and it’s not spiritual.




That's because they were convinced NOT to take the words of their book literally.  They were convinced by rational, secular argument.  The farther people get away from fundamentalist religious belief the better they get.  That's the scale tipping in the direction that I've been talking about.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 3, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yes. He formed a religion that he used to control young people. Isolation, group immersion, and constant preaching soon convinced his followers that the Beatles were sending him messages through their music related to his instructions in his role as a savior during the coming race war, and his role as ruler in the aftermath of it.
> 
> The same tactics used by most organized religions, just a more undiluted version. Yet, every one of those kids believed him and his message just as much as any other religious person believes in his own religion.



They believed that "He was blind but now can see".  Who can argue against that?


----------



## bullethead (Feb 3, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> And I would agree with you 100% bullethead on most of your post as it’s exactly my point when it comes to blaming religion. The only portion I’m not in agreement with is your point that “spirituality has nothing to do with”.....I respect the opinion though.
> 
> In a nutshell, a man jumping off of a building claiming he’s an airplane is and never was an airplane regardless of how much he really believed it.


A man claiming the spirit of a god makes him a better person is on the same level as the man who believes a shrunken head makes him a better person. They both share the same connection in the believe factor. Believe is not Truth even though it is a motivator.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 3, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> That's because they were convinced NOT to take the words of their book literally.  They were convinced by rational, secular argument.  The farther people get away from fundamentalist religious belief the better they get.  That's the scale tipping in the direction that I've been talking about.


And everything you’re describing is a people issue. Religion doesn’t have anything to do with anything other than being an abused tool.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 3, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> That's right.  He made up his own religion that people blindly followed because he intuitively knew that is is a powerful way to control people and get them to do bad things.  It can make them do good things, too. But there are good reasons to do good things.  No need to do good things for bad reasons.


And in their mind, they were doing good for him because they were his wishes and they wanted to please him.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 3, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> And most of our Muslims pals disagree with flying planes into buildings and believe as the rest of the world does, it’s not good, and it’s not spiritual.


That does not account for the ones that are moved by the spirit, or were commanded by their God...or at least say that. How do you prove them wrong?


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 3, 2019)

bullethead said:


> A man claiming the spirit of a god makes him a better person is on the same level as the man who believes a shrunken head makes him a better person. They both share the same connection in the believe factor. Believe is not Truth even though it is a motivator.


I’d agree to an extent. Being religious or searching for something  spiritual in your life doesn’t require one to be in an emotional state of distress or in need of mental assistance / evaluation - such as the case for needing a shrink. 

That being said, being a Christian is not a requirement to being a good man. There are a lot of very good men that are non religious.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 3, 2019)

bullethead said:


> That does not account for the ones that are moved by the spirit, or were commanded by their God...or at least say that. How do you prove them wrong?


I think the many that say God isn’t working that way speaks volumes.

 I don’t know if we can prove them wrong. But does that make them right?


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 3, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yes. He formed a religion that he used to control young people. Isolation, group immersion, and constant preaching soon convinced his followers that the Beatles were sending him messages through their music related to his instructions in his role as a savior during the coming race war, and his role as ruler in the aftermath of it.
> 
> The same tactics used by most organized religions, just a more undiluted version. Yet, every one of those kids believed him and his message just as much as any other religious person believes in his own religion.


And that’s the reality, they really believe what they’re hearing and instructed to do.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 3, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> I’d agree to an extent. Being religious or searching for something  spiritual in your life doesn’t require one to be in an emotional state of distress or in need of mental assistance / evaluation - such as the case for needing a shrink.
> 
> That being said, being a Christian is not a requirement to being a good man. There are a lot of very good men that are non religious.


I agree. Not a requirement for needing professional help. But it is amazing how many religious people are getting it.
Religious, Specifically Religious, Not religious. All in the same boat. So is "spiritually" really an advantage?


----------



## bullethead (Feb 3, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> I think the many that say God isn’t working that way speaks volumes.
> 
> I don’t know if we can prove them wrong. But does that make them right?


We are them. They are we.
Thats the point.
No advantage.
No real difference.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 3, 2019)

bullethead said:


> We are them. They are we.
> Thats the point.
> No advantage.
> No real difference.




...hence the uselessness of knowledge based on revelation.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 3, 2019)

bullethead said:


> We are them. They are we.
> Thats the point.
> No advantage.
> No real difference.


Agreed, just curious how it’s deternined a religious issue if “we”.....


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 3, 2019)

bullethead said:


> I agree. Not a requirement for needing professional help. But it is amazing how many religious people are getting it.
> Religious, Specifically Religious, Not religious. All in the same boat. So is "spiritually" really an advantage?


Of course it is. I’ve read some info regarding studies that show religious people are healthier / happier. Will try to find.

But my main focus that hadn’t been addressed by Ambush is the negative effects that a belief in God, heaven or......is a net negative on society and the individual.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 3, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> Of course it is. I’ve read some info regarding studies that show religious people are healthier / happier. Will try to find.
> 
> But my main focus that hadn’t been addressed by Ambush is the negative effects that a belief in God, heaven or......is a net negative on society and the individual.



As I said before, we can talk about the good things that religion can produce.  My assertion is that the bad things outweigh the good.  You wanted to know what I think the bad things are and I and others told you.  There's a short circuit somewhere in our dialogue.  I hope we can identify it.

I have to admit that my patience is wearing a bit but I'll have one more go at this.  It might be that I'm not expressing myself well.

This is as straight forward as I can make it.  I don't think I can do a better job than this.  The belief in Heaven or Paradise is clearly connected to the type of religious fervor that causes people to fly planes into buildings.  I have observed that believing that God leads the believer to misidentify the causes and definitions of evil behavior resulting in bad "solutions" to "problems" like Homosexual Conversion therapy.  There are other examples I gave that included politics and science.  Did I not do a good job of identifying the problems with belief in revelation?


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 3, 2019)

Spotlite,

Here's another example of how religion seems to lead reasonable, rational people away from to what a Humanist, secularist would see as the obvious humane, merciful action.

http://forum.gon.com/threads/scientist-to-be-punished-for-gene-editing.935884/page-2#post-11576162


----------



## bullethead (Feb 3, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> Agreed, just curious how it’s deternined a religious issue if “we”.....


Because that is what religious people claim all the time.
They have something special. Its spiritual.  You other people can't feel it. 
Religious are the chosen, the elect, the special.  All religions think they are more "better" then the next despite them all having the same problems  and same good fortunes, and same morals, and same sinister deeds as the non religious.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 3, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> Of course it is. I’ve read some info regarding studies that show religious people are healthier / happier. Will try to find.
> 
> But my main focus that hadn’t been addressed by Ambush is the negative effects that a belief in God, heaven or......is a net negative on society and the individual.



Healthier?
Hey, Id be all in agreement if the believers of one God never got sick or came down with debilitating diseases or were born with defects.
But it just isnt so. 
Studies show owning a dog makes you healthy too. If you own a dog and believe in God....and watch your weight, ate healthy, and do things in moderation and take your Dog for walks 3 or4 times a day....I dont doubt you are healthier. 
If you are 4'10" 268lb, pall mall filterless smoker,  live on Fast Food and hard liquor and never leave the couch and also have 14 dogs in the house that NEVER go outside to do their business....well you better believe in a God. 

2nd part:
Depends on what god is believed in and where and of your in the majority or minority.


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 3, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> As I said before, we can talk about the good things that religion can produce.  My assertion is that the bad things outweigh the good.  You wanted to know what I think the bad things are and I and others told you.  There's a short circuit somewhere in our dialogue.  I hope we can identify it.
> 
> I have to admit that my patience is wearing a bit but I'll have one more go at this.  It might be that I'm not expressing myself well.
> 
> This is as straight forward as I can make it.  I don't think I can do a better job than this.  The belief in Heaven or Paradise is clearly connected to the type of religious fervor that causes people to fly planes into buildings.  I have observed that believing that God leads the believer to misidentify the causes and definitions of evil behavior resulting in bad "solutions" to "problems" like Homosexual Conversion therapy.  There are other examples I gave that included politics and science.  Did I not do a good job of identifying the problems with belief in revelation?


A more commonly occurring example would be suicide bombers.
Of course, this all leads to the difference between how far a Christian will go vs. other religion(s).
Which leads to an observation -
Christians are far less likely, cant think of even one occurrence, to sacrifice themselves to kill "them". I guess that's where the suicide is a sin rule comes in.
What you do hear about often enough is killing someone else as in not taking their kid to a doctor etc.
Extreme cases yes but examples of your point in red none the less.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 3, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> As I said before, we can talk about the good things that religion can produce.  My assertion is that the bad things outweigh the good.  You wanted to know what I think the bad things are and I and others told you.  There's a short circuit somewhere in our dialogue.  I hope we can identify it.
> 
> I have to admit that my patience is wearing a bit but I'll have one more go at this.  It might be that I'm not expressing myself well.
> 
> This is as straight forward as I can make it.  I don't think I can do a better job than this.  The belief in Heaven or Paradise is clearly connected to the type of religious fervor that causes people to fly planes into buildings.  I have observed that believing that God leads the believer to misidentify the causes and definitions of evil behavior resulting in bad "solutions" to "problems" like Homosexual Conversion therapy.  There are other examples I gave that included politics and science.  Did I not do a good job of identifying the problems with belief in revelation?


I guess I was under the impression that there was an actual source to this rather than your perception. I can’t argue against your perception, but it’s still just your perception.

And to be honest, I once thought ALL Muslims were on a suicide mission.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 3, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Healthier?
> Hey, Id be all in agreement if the believers of one God never got sick or came down with debilitating diseases or were born with defects.
> But it just isnt so.
> Studies show owning a dog makes you healthy too. If you own a dog and believe in God....and watch your weight, ate healthy, and do things in moderation and take your Dog for walks 3 or4 times a day....I dont doubt you are healthier.
> ...


I’m sure there are many more, and probably as many that disagree. Why would believers not get sick? Doesn’t it rain on just and unust alike?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-about-men/201712/religion-and-mental-health-what-is-the-link?amp


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 3, 2019)

bullethead said:


> Because that is what religious people claim all the time.
> They have something special. Its spiritual.  You other people can't feel it.
> Religious are the chosen, the elect, the special.  All religions think they are more "better" then the next despite them all having the same problems  and same good fortunes, and same morals, and same sinister deeds as the non religious.


I don’t put a lot of stock in claims. The fruit will bear itself. That’s for a believer and a non believer. 

Not sure about the better part either. I guess my group is different. The minute we think we are better than others is the minute we’ve lost sight of our mission.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 3, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> A more commonly occurring example would be suicide bombers.
> Of course, this all leads to the difference between how far a Christian will go vs. other religion(s).
> Which leads to an observation -
> Christians are far less likely, cant think of even one occurrence, to sacrifice themselves to kill "them". I guess that's where the suicide is a sin rule comes in.
> ...


With emphasis on extreme.


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 3, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> With emphasis on extreme.


1 church in 1 county in 1 state -


> According to coroners’ reports, in Canyon County alone just in the past decade at least 10 children in the Followers of Christ church have died. These include 15-year-old Arrian Granden, who died in 2012 after contracting food poisoning. She vomited so much that her esophagus ruptured. Untreated, she bled to death.
> The other deaths are mostly infants who died during at-home births or soon after from treatable complications, simple infections or pneumonia.


Yes, 1 particular denomination but "extreme" might be being generous.

EDIT -


> Former Christian Scientist Rita Swan, executive director of the nonprofit Children's Health Care Is A Legal Duty, estimates that since the 1980s 300 children have died of "religion-based medical neglect" in the United States.


Maybe "extreme" is being really generous.....


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 3, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> 1 church in 1 county in 1 state -
> 
> Yes, 1 particular denomination but "extreme" might be being generous.
> 
> ...


I get what you're saying, I just realize that there are some things done in the name of religion that have absolutely nothing to do with religion. I would hope others could do the same.

I’m sure that this doesn’t represent Atheism - “Alfred Kinsey was an infamous American biologist and professor of entomology and zoology, who made groundbreaking research on human sexuality. Undoubtedly, he helped to progress social values – but, nevertheless, he took sadistic pleasure out of his research, and did some very weird stuff, including exploiting children for sex. Moreover, much of his research was fraud”

I don’t believe that religion nor atheism has a net negative effect on society or an individual, I believe the individual’s self motivation / justification is the animal.


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 4, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> I get what you're saying, I just realize that there are some things done in the name of religion that have absolutely nothing to do with religion. I would hope others could do the same.
> 
> I’m sure that this doesn’t represent Atheism - “Alfred Kinsey was an infamous American biologist and professor of entomology and zoology, who made groundbreaking research on human sexuality. Undoubtedly, he helped to progress social values – but, nevertheless, he took sadistic pleasure out of his research, and did some very weird stuff, including exploiting children for sex. Moreover, much of his research was fraud”
> 
> I don’t believe that religion nor atheism has a net negative effect on society or an individual, I believe the individual’s self motivation / justification is the animal.


In the end, I do agree that it all boils down to the individual's choice of what they do or don't do.
But I also don't completely dismiss the influence of the group they willingly belong to.


----------



## Israel (Feb 4, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> "How effective....?" better and better each day as secularism and reason get more refined and widespread and replace religious dogmatism .



OK. Stand by that if you care to. Man is becoming more reasonable.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 4, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> In the end, I do agree that it all boils down to the individual's choice of what they do or don't do.
> But I also don't completely dismiss the influence of the group they willingly belong to.


I think we agree on this more than it appears. 

As my fat Aunt once said, “son you don’t understand the power of a chocolate cake”.


----------



## Israel (Feb 4, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> In the end, I do agree that it all boils down to the individual's choice of what they do or don't do.
> But I also don't completely dismiss the influence of the group they willingly belong to.



I'd recommend "Conspiracy" with Kenneth Branagh, Stanley Tucci, and Colin Firth if you watch movies at all. It's about the "bringing into the tent" of the various arms of the Nazi government and administrative ministries in the purpose of the final solution. (Which was already underway...but politics demanded a "willing" acquiescence for both political expediency and full implementation.)

I believe "the good Lord" gets mentioned more than once, but I do have the clear memory of Gen. Reynhard Heydrich (the butcher of Prague) mouthing the words. The movie itself is _rife_ with irony, with that not necessarily being its most singularly rich display.

Nevertheless I believe one would have to be "obtuse" (hey, do you remember how that description _set off_ the warden in "Shawshank"?) to deny a plainer stating of their truest allegiance is to the one who is described as having word "above the law"...Adolf Hitler.

But being use (too use?) to dealing with the obtuse (read stupid, ignorant, woefully shortsighted) in my own short time upon this marble (do I exempt myself?) I have learned men much easier submit to being accused, in almost every case, of being malevolent than naive or ignorant. Do I think men easier bear being thought mean spirited (or to the extreme "evil")...than willingly suffer having their intelligence impugned? Yeah, pretty much so. (here's a simple experiment: Tell a man "he shouldn't be so evil" and watch for reaction. Now, tell him "he shouldn't be so stupid" and do the same)

So, (if only) to me an _obtuse one _would take occasion, by mention of "the good Lord", to find an easy equation "Nazi's also= examples of Christians". Or vice versa if found to argument's expediency. (Or bring up Kruschev's ability to recite the whole of the gospel of John, verbatim.) Now, I don't deny they did indeed have a religion that "moved them", but I'll leave that to the emerging obtuse for consideration. But it will take the _remarkably obtuse _to not discover in such, their own is likewise exposed. "Gee...why do _other men_ do as they do? While_ I know exactly_ why I am what I am and do what I do?" Such is not yet, emerging from obtuse city. Obtusity?

In the "Nazi" tale is also found another story "The Hiding Place". I have little doubt that somewhere in all of Casper ten Boom's recitations over his own lifetime, there no less appeared a reference to "the good Lord". If you think I will here, or am, seeking to make a proof of "who" is the _true Christian_...don't be obtuse. That's left to each to determine who, and what, _to him_ speaks _truly. _Honestly. And likewise if there be any ever, capable of all truth. If he thinks himself...it...to _be honest_, I don't know whether my proper response is "don't be so evil" or "don't be so stupid".

Only the obtuse will be stung. But, who knows, (I sure don't) whether thinking my response has any place of requirement at all...for I may be of all, most obtuse, evil, and stupid.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 4, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> Spotlite,
> 
> Here's another example of how religion seems to lead reasonable, rational people away from to what a Humanist, secularist would see as the obvious humane, merciful action.
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/threads/scientist-to-be-punished-for-gene-editing.935884/page-2#post-11576162


That’s actually a good discussion with editing of genes thread. 

Regardless of what nature is, let it take it’s course, for obvious reasons. One eluded to Hitler and his style. I took it as potential abuse of gene editing.

With the creation folks, are you interfering with God’s plan? If you’re an evolution believer, are you interfering with natural process of adapting to survive? Why would you interfere with either if you really believe that either occurs?

Your mom”s conclusion is a perfect example of how skeptical any reasonable, rational person should view this.

I’m skeptical but I wouldn’t block it if it helped prevent.

I would question those that would block it in the name of either creation or evolution; if you’re concerned about interfering with a natural process, why are you taking your child to the doctor?


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 4, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> I guess I was under the impression that there was an actual source to this rather than your perception. I can’t argue against your perception, but it’s still just your perception.
> 
> And to be honest, I once thought ALL Muslims were on a suicide mission.




Do you want statistics?  Studies?  Would you like to see the words from the believers themselves?


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 4, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> Do you want statistics?  Studies?  Would you like to see the words from the believers themselves?


It’d be interesting just to know if you realize the difference between a person flying a plane into a building for Allah and those that condemn it in the name of Allah.

I think your issue is if a person says they’re a believer, you’re automatically sold at face value that they represent all believers. 

You’d make a great Juror for those chaining they’re innocent.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 4, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> Do you want statistics?  Studies?  Would you like to see the words from the believers themselves?


Do you think that Alfred Kinsey is a great representation of Atheism, or just himself?


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 4, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> Do you think that Alfred Kinsey is a great representation of Atheism, or just himself?



First of all Atheism isn't a doctrine.  It doesn't instruct anything.  It only says that a person doesn't believe in God.  It doesn't tell them how they should live.  It doesn't tell them that they should be rational or good.  But religions do exactly that.  They instruct you on HOW TO LIVE and believers live as they think the doctrine instructs them to.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 4, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> It’d be interesting just to know if you realize the difference between a person flying a plane into a building for Allah and those that condemn it in the name of Allah.
> 
> I think your issue is if a person says they’re a believer, you’re automatically sold at face value that they represent all believers.
> 
> You’d make a great Juror for those chaining they’re innocent.



I can only take what they tell me at face value.  If they say that they're a believer I listen.

I know that believers are all over the spectrum between Fundamentalist and Secular.  Part of my assertion was that as they move away from Fundamentalist and towards Secular that they become better people.


----------



## Spotlite (Feb 4, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> First of all Atheism isn't a doctrine.  It doesn't instruct anything.  It only says that a person doesn't believe in God.  It doesn't tell them how they should live.  It doesn't tell them that they should be rational or good.  But religions do exactly that.  They instruct you on HOW TO LIVE and believers live as they think the doctrine instructs them to.


But ......if it’s an individual issue, it doesn’t matter what’s a doctrine or not?

Religion doesn’t indoctrinate, people do. If religion was doing this, how’d the rest of us escape it? That’s my only point.


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 4, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> But ......if it’s an individual issue, it doesn’t matter what’s a doctrine or not?
> 
> Religion doesn’t indoctrinate, people do. If religion was doing this, how’d the rest of us escape it? That’s my only point.


That's an argument you are going to lose and you are going to lose big.
While on an individual level it my vary how deeply they become indoctrinated and yes an individual is ultimately responsible for their actions, its just an undeniable fact that religion's entire game plan is indoctrination in that religion's beliefs.
And indoctrination isn't a dirty word. A whole lot of groups/organizations/parents do it.
Ive been indoctrinated, you've been indoctrinated, just about darn near everybody has been indoctrinated in way or another.
The 10 commandments aren't a person and yes its just a bunch of words that cant force you to become indoctrinated but you are taught by Christianity that those words are what you are supposed to follow.
Indoctrination is how you reject all the other gods but believe in yours. You didn't prove that no other gods exist or that other gods are "lower" than yours, you were indoctrinated to believe that.


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## Israel (Feb 4, 2019)

That all works fine for religion, and may even be in some way applicable to what is often called "christian religion". That is, if by legerdemain the christian may be conned into accepting (and agreement to) some worldly application and identification with/of a caricature commonly identified as the "christian fundamentalist". God knows what this may range from, and to.

But the christian has no avatar. He has nothing the world can identify, nor that he would care to offer, in its presumption as the "more fundamental" (or less) representation of Jesus Christ.

This does not at all mean I doubt the man's appraisal of what is (by an affection) "better" to him who may say "I esteem such and such "of a sort of" christian/muslim/hindu/ to be better than some other sort"

But, not being able to make heads or tails of Jesus Christ it (the world) has no enlightenment at all as to what is "fundamental" to, or of, Him.


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## Spotlite (Feb 4, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> That's an argument you are going to lose and you are going to lose big.
> While on an individual level it my vary how deeply they become indoctrinated and yes an individual is ultimately responsible for their actions, its just an undeniable fact that religion's entire game plan is indoctrination in that religion's beliefs.
> And indoctrination isn't a dirty word. A whole lot of groups/organizations/parents do it.
> Ive been indoctrinated, you've been indoctrinated, just about darn near everybody has been indoctrinated in way or another.
> ...


My view of indoctrination is the teaching that Ambush is speaking of. The teaching to fly planes into a building.

I’m not taught that I have to follow those commandments anymore than I’m taught not to steal a candy bar because it’s illegal.

I guess that is indoctrination, just not the impression I got from what he was eluding to.

Or, more or less a different / extreme level of indoctrination, that’s basically driven back to a man / leader, etc.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 4, 2019)

Spotlite said:


> My view of indoctrination is the teaching that Ambush is speaking of. The teaching to fly planes into a building.
> 
> I’m not taught that I have to follow those commandments anymore than I’m taught not to steal a candy bar because it’s illegal.
> 
> ...





> anymore than I’m taught not to steal a candy bar because it’s illegal.


It became illegal because way back when man decided it really sucked to have your stuff stolen. So it was decided to indoctrinate/teach others stealing is bad. Since bad isn't convincing enough now theres a punishment for it.


> that’s basically driven back to a man / leader, etc.


Or a group that uses men and leaders to do the indoctrinating.
Jesus, Apostles, Preachers, CEOs, Drill Instructors, Teachers, books... all doing the indoctrinating on behalf of the group/organization/society who tells them what to indoctrinate/teach.
And yes individuals too. Would Germans have come up with on their own that Jews needed to be exterminated if it wasn't for Hitler? Probably not.
But its all indoctrination.


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## Spotlite (Feb 4, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> It became illegal because way back when man decided it really sucked to have your stuff stolen. So it was decided to indoctrinate/teach others stealing is bad. Since bad isn't convincing enough now theres a punishment for it.
> 
> Or a group that uses men and leaders to do the indoctrinating.
> Jesus, Apostles, Preachers, CEOs, Drill Instructors, Teachers, books... all doing the indoctrinating on behalf of the group/organization/society who tells them what to indoctrinate/teach.
> ...


I can see what you’re getting at. Sometimes I’m too hard headed to be stubborn.

Different from what I thought Ambush was getting at. But I see his point, too.


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## ambush80 (Feb 4, 2019)

Israel said:


> That all works fine for religion, and may even be in some way applicable to what is often called "christian religion". That is, if by legerdemain the christian may be conned into accepting (and agreement to) some worldly application and identification with/of a caricature commonly identified as the "christian fundamentalist". God knows what this may range from, and to.
> 
> But the christian has no avatar. He has nothing the world can identify, nor that he would care to offer, in its presumption as the "more fundamental" (or less) representation of Jesus Christ.
> 
> ...



That's just an assertion with absolutely nothing to back it up.


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