# Some things will always defy explaination I guess.



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 10, 2015)

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/03/0...cue-toddler-trapped-inside/?intcmp=latestnews

Miracle, to say the least.


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## 660griz (Mar 10, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/03/0...cue-toddler-trapped-inside/?intcmp=latestnews
> 
> Miracle, to say the least.



Lucky baby. 

A miracle would have been for her car to levitate over the barrier and set gently back down on the roadway with no harm to anyone.

A human can go 3 minutes without oxygen, 3 days without water, and around 3 weeks without food. 
Baby survived 14 hours. Not unusual.
Officers hearing help?  Well, watch Brain Games enough and you will understand.
Another explanation, baby heard folks, yelled help a few times and went unconscious.


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 10, 2015)

Interesting. As to how the baby survived, there are other cases of babies in cold conditions falling into protective hypothermia and being revived later. 

The voice part is interesting.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 10, 2015)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Interesting. As to how the baby survived, there are other cases of babies in cold conditions falling into protective hypothermia and being revived later.
> 
> The voice part is interesting.



That is the coolest Avatar I've ever seen.


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 10, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That is the coolest Avatar I've ever seen.



I wish I could take credit. It was in one of the "Awesome Animal" threads on Chive. With how that site has gone recently, it's about the only redeeming thing on it. It used to be full of funny stuff and some debauchery which was easier to ignore, now it's all debauchery with a few genuine funny things thrown in.


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## ambush80 (Mar 10, 2015)

"That woman's voice, in my opinion, was an angel".

It goes back to how you interpret "evidence".  What are your predispositions?


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 10, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> "That woman's voice, in my opinion, was an angel".
> 
> It goes back to how you interpret "evidence".  What are your predispositions?



At the risk of sounding like Israel and seeing and speaking metaphorically about every thing (at least I think that's what he does) or coming off as and old hippie whose thoughts are so out there one can't decipher which reality he is experiencing, as a Christian, especially over the course of the last 2 years or so, I have really had my eyes opened to the spiritual realm.  

    I really don't want to go into it here, and I'm sure most don't want to hear it, but to me it highlights just how much that really goes on that defies any natural explanation.   I realize that for many this is a preposterous 
idea, but it's just as you say:  I depends on your predisposition and presuppositions.  

    Even as a Christian I've always been a pretty concrete, evidence based type of guy.  My background is in science and I put a lot of confidence in evidence based practices.  My wife would say I'm very pragmatic and practical...to a fault.  To a great degree I think she may have been correct, for before even though I believed in the supernatural, I heavily weighted the natural.

Now I feel that the supernatural deserves just as much weight (maybe more in many cases) as the natural.

This is just me.....just my opinion, but the more I come to know the more I realize how much is simply unknowable; wonderful but unknowable.


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 10, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> At the risk of sounding like Israel and seeing and speaking metaphorically about every thing (at least I think that's what he does) or coming off as and old hippie whose thoughts are so out there one can't decipher which reality he is experiencing, as a Christian, especially over the course of the last 2 years or so, I have really had my eyes opened to the spiritual realm.
> 
> I really don't want to go into it here, and I'm sure most don't want to hear it, but to me it highlights just how much that really goes on that defies any natural explanation.   I realize that for many this is a preposterous
> idea, but it's just as you say:  I depends on your predisposition and presuppositions.
> ...



I would only ask one question about the voice.
Which is more probable:
A) Air escaping, or water sloshing, from somewhere in the vehicle vibrated a membrane just enough and in just the right way to create, what sounded to them, something like a human voice; or
B) Something supernatural occurred where God, or a ghost, made a female voice speak to them to save that baby? 

Given that creaks and groans of a house settling can sound like footsteps, wind on the surface of the house can sound like a low howl or distant yell, and that even water slapping a hull of a boat can sound like many other things given mitigating conditions, I'd say it's much more likely that A took place than B. It doesn't rule out B, but there are very few things that could.


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## ambush80 (Mar 10, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> At the risk of sounding like Israel and seeing and speaking metaphorically about every thing (at least I think that's what he does) or coming off as and old hippie whose thoughts are so out there one can't decipher which reality he is experiencing, as a Christian, especially  over the course of the last 2 years or so, I have really had my eyes opened to the spiritual realm.
> 
> I really don't want to go into it here, and I'm sure most don't want to hear it, but to me it highlights just how much that really goes on that defies any natural explanation.   I realize that for many this is a preposterous
> idea, but it's just as you say:  I depends on your predisposition and presuppositions.
> ...




For me, this is the stuff I would rather hear about than metaphoric ramblings;  things that defy natural explanation.  

Claw marks, levitation, speaking in multiple voices in foreign languages.  These are the things that pique my interest and make me wonder about the possible "spirit realm".

I absolutely love to hear about them.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 10, 2015)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I would only ask one question about the voice.
> Which is more probable:
> A) Air escaping, or water sloshing, from somewhere in the vehicle vibrated a membrane just enough and in just the right way to create, what sounded to them, something like a human voice; or
> B) Something supernatural occurred where God, or a ghost, made a female voice speak to them to save that baby?
> ...


Or "A" presupposes "B".


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 10, 2015)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I would only ask one question about the voice.
> Which is more probable:



Like Ambush said.  That's gonna depend on your presuppositions.

Because I do believe in miracles and the supernatural I would honestly answer B

Someone who doesn't would answer A

The sources said it was a voice that they even replied to...if I read it right.

I guess my point in the above post was if you're not at least open to the supernatural, you're never gonna experience it.  Otherwise one is left attempting to provide a natural explanation that often contradicts the source and takes more faith to believe than just simply believing in the miracle itself.  That has certainly been my experience.

####Edited


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## ambush80 (Mar 10, 2015)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I would only ask one question about the voice.
> Which is more probable:
> A) Air escaping, or water sloshing, from somewhere in the vehicle vibrated a membrane just enough and in just the right way to create, what sounded to them, something like a human voice; or
> B) Something supernatural occurred where God, or a ghost, made a female voice speak to them to save that baby?
> ...



Upon coming up to the scene would it not be unlikely to expect to hear those kinds of sounds coming from the car?  Would it not in fact be hopeful to want to hear those sounds?  

When one of the rescuers starts talking to "someone" he hears what might the other rescuers reactions be?  How might they recall what happened?  Michael Brown's defenders come to mind.  

When people are prompted with a suggestion do they not quite remarkably often react to it?  In high stress situations people perceive thing quite differently then when in a normal situation.  That's just a fact.

I'm not saying that it didn't happen like they say it did, though I believe it to be unlikely, but is it possible that there is a simpler explanation then angels?  Or is that the simplest explanation?


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## ambush80 (Mar 10, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Like Ambush said.  That's gonna depend on your presuppositions.
> 
> Because I do believe in miracles and the supernatural I would honestly answer A.
> 
> ...



Untrue.  I've seen and heard "ghosts".  I've seen UFO's.  Some of them remain unexplained.


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 10, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Like Ambush said.  That's gonna depend on your presuppositions.
> 
> Because I do believe in miracles and the supernatural I would honestly answer A.
> 
> ...



Other than A and B being backwards in your post I get what you're saying. A was the human explanation. B was the supernatural. 

I've experienced the supernatural, or what I thought was the supernatural, and I didn't have to go looking for or even be thinking about it. 

I opened my blinds one night and couldn't argue with what I saw. 

Presuppositions do determine which side we are likely to take relative to this article, but life experiences and those of others, show me that you can be closed minded as can be, and still have it forced upon you. 




ambush80 said:


> Upon coming up to the scene would it not be unlikely to expect to hear those kinds of sounds coming from the car?  Would it not in fact be hopeful to want to hear those sounds?
> 
> When one of the rescuers starts talking to "someone" he hears what might the other rescuers reactions be?  How might they recall what happened?  Michael Brown's defenders come to mind.
> 
> ...



A lot of things are possible, and few can be ruled out due to nothing but witness testimony being the only evidence, which is mitigated by exactly what you detail above. 

To the guys who experienced it I would say that they obviously had an experience and that I find it interesting. 

I don't, however, find it interesting enough to countermand all of the other data points I've gathered on the same subjects over my life.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 10, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Untrue.  I've seen and heard "ghosts".  I've seen UFO's.  Some of them remain unexplained.



Do you believe in the supernatural defined as an event that defies natural explanation.  It seems you do.  I just want to he clear.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 10, 2015)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Other than A and B being backwards in your post I get what you're saying. A was the human explanation. B was the supernatural.
> 
> I've experienced the supernatural, or what I thought was the supernatural, and I didn't have to go looking for or even be thinking about it.
> 
> ...




Yeah.  They were backward.  I went back and edited it, but it's just a reminder to me how aggravating it is to do this on an ipad.

OK.  Now we all want to know what you saw.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 10, 2015)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I don't, however, find it interesting enough to countermand all of the other data points I've gathered on the same subjects over my life.



This is the approach I've taken.  I appreciate everything the sciences have done for us.  When they can provide an answer I'm game if the evidence is solid.  I also recognize that there's a supernatural sphere that exists.  The more I learn about it, the more I recognize it and to some degree understand it.

In short I don't think one has to take an either/or approach to the natural and supernatural in either direction.  I think if you take a one sided approach you are at the very least limiting your thinking and restricting yourself mentally, emotionally and spiritually to varying degrees.


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## 660griz (Mar 10, 2015)

I don't believe there is a supernatural side. I have always hoped there was. When I was young, and heard of supernatural sightings or events around my home town, I would rush over there at the appropriate time hoping to see some mystical stuff I couldn't explain. Hasn't happened yet and, I want it to. 
The first time I heard a bobcat scream, I thought it was paranormal. Never did find that lady. 

If you don't know what ball lightning is, you may think paranormal. 
I guess what I am saying is just because you, or whoever witnesses it, can't explain it doesn't mean it defies explanation. It just means you can't explain it. 
It doesn't mean God or supernatural either cause, that would be an explanation. A cop out but, an explanation.
Therefore, the appropriate response would be, "I don't know".


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## EverGreen1231 (Mar 10, 2015)

660griz said:


> I don't believe there is a supernatural side. I have always hoped there was. When I was young, and heard of supernatural sightings or events around my home town, I would rush over there at the appropriate time hoping to see some mystical stuff I couldn't explain. Hasn't happened yet and, I want it to.
> The first time I heard a bobcat scream, I thought it was paranormal. Never did find that lady.
> 
> If you don't know what ball lightning is, you may think paranormal.
> ...



I don't feel those hopes will be left empty. 

I remember the first time I heard a Bobcat scream; I still have those blue jeans I was wearing that night. Never could quite get the stain out. 

How does turbulence work?
Well, the answer lies in Newtonian mechanics.
No, I mean, how does it "work?"

Same thing applies to energy. After you learn about physics to a certain point you realize that we don't know anything on a fundamental level when you rely simply on science; we can only use science to describe how these things affect their surroundings.



660griz said:


> It doesn't mean God or supernatural either cause, that would be an explanation. A cop out but, an explanation.
> Therefore, the appropriate response would be, "I don't know".



Seems to me that "I don't know" is a cop out also; perhaps an even bigger one. The explanation "God done it" gives the impression that, though I don't know, I'm willing to admit that there could be something to the cause beyond any ability of myself, or anyone else, to comprehend; to me, "I don't know" doesn't do that. "I don't know" sounds like something I would say to my mother when she caught me red handed doing something I wasn't supposed to, yet still asked me "who did it?" I would lie, and get a butt-whoopin'. I knew the answer; she knew the answer; I was scared of the implications that would come with admitting my wrong doing, though things would have been much better if I had just yielded and not been so stubborn.


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## ambush80 (Mar 10, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Do you believe in the supernatural defined as an event that defies natural explanation.  It seems you do.  I just want to he clear.



I guess not.  I mean, I can come up with all kinds of natural explanations for my experiences.  I just can't say what they were definitively.  I can't say what those lights in the sky were for certain.  I can't say what caused those apparitions, voices or touches.  For most of them I can say it was my mind playing tricks on me.  A lot of the times when I had "ghost experiences" I was already on edge or half asleep, maybe on one of the occasions chemically altered; primed for an encounter.

The lights looked like stars that just kind of moved around erratically.  I was sober.


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 10, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yeah.  They were backward.  I went back and edited it, but it's just a reminder to me how aggravating it is to do this on an ipad.
> 
> OK.  Now we all want to know what you saw.



No worries, I just wanted to clarify. That iPad part, though I don't own one, is also why I go dark after 5PM. I spend all day on a computer, I stay off them at home if I can help it. 

I had an experience where I really believe I saw 4 ghosts all at once. 



SemperFiDawg said:


> This is the approach I've taken.  I appreciate everything the sciences have done for us.  When they can provide an answer I'm game if the evidence is solid. * I also recognize that there's a supernatural sphere that exists. * The more I learn about it, the more I recognize it and to some degree understand it.
> 
> In short I don't think one has to take an either/or approach to the natural and supernatural in either direction.  I think if you take a one sided approach you are at the very least limiting your thinking and restricting yourself mentally, emotionally and spiritually to varying degrees.



This is where we diverge, at least to a point. 

I believe I had an experience, so I believe that some shred of a supernatural sphere exists, but that's more derived from the fact that I know that humans exist and that there's something inside animating the machine. 

However, I've also been told that I've died and I didn't experience anything during that so I'm not sure if it's just that not everyone gets to be a ghost, or if I imagined/dreamed/hallucinated the ghosts I believe I saw.


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## ambush80 (Mar 10, 2015)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Other than A and B being backwards in your post I get what you're saying. A was the human explanation. B was the supernatural.
> 
> I've experienced the supernatural, or what I thought was the supernatural, and I didn't have to go looking for or even be thinking about it.
> 
> ...



If I could I would love to hear what those guys have to say.  I love ghost stories, monster stories, parapsychology, cryptozoology, etc.

I would love to hear anyone's stories concerning any of this.


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 10, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> If I could I would love to hear what those guys have to say.  I love ghost stories, monster stories, parapsychology, cryptozoology, etc.
> 
> I would love to hear anyone's stories concerning any of this.



I agree. They get me thinking. Just like theology, which is not at all religion.


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## ambush80 (Mar 10, 2015)

EverGreen1231 said:


> I don't feel those hopes will be left empty.
> 
> I remember the first time I heard a Bobcat scream; I still have those blue jeans I was wearing that night. Never could quite get the stain out.
> 
> ...



"God dun it" gives the impression that you think you know exactly how it happened.  Even more so when you say "And I know which god it was".

I don't know means I don't know.  When my mother asked me how the vase got broken and I said "I don't know" it's because I didn't know.  What would she have said to me if I said "God dun it".  Would she say "Why son, that's an elegant and simple explanation for this unexplained phenomena"?


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 10, 2015)

EverGreen1231 said:


> No, I mean, how does it "work?"



If Netwonian physics can't answer your question, maybe you're not asking a "how". Maybe you're asking a "why" phrased as a "how". 

"To get the right answer, one must ask the right question," so sayeth Confucius. Or someone wise.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 10, 2015)

It's good to hear you talk about supernatural events that y'all have personally experienced.  I think almost all of us have experienced some sort or another.  

It's funny, but even in most Churches where you would think people would readily accept these events as common, people will look at you like you have a third eye.  The funny thing is they have no problem conceptualizing and readily accept the spiritual sphere,(if they didn't they wouldn't be in church)  as long as it doesn't affect or threaten their physical one.  

I'm about to the point ( and this is where most everyone including believers are going to distance themselves), but I'm bout to the point that I think the spiritual (yes, demons and the devil) sphere has more influence on our daily lives than the purely natural environment along does.    You guys can start swirling your index fingers around your temple now.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 10, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> It's good to hear you talk about supernatural events that y'all have personally experienced.  I think almost all of us have experienced some sort or another.
> 
> It's funny, but even in most Churches where you would think people would readily accept these events as common, people will look at you like you have a third eye.  The funny thing is they have no problem conceptualizing and readily accept the spiritual sphere,(if they didn't they wouldn't be in church)  as long as it doesn't affect or threaten their physical one.
> 
> I'm about to the point ( and this is where most everyone including believers are going to distance themselves), but I'm bout to the point that I think the spiritual (yes, demons and the devil) sphere has more influence on our daily lives than the purely natural environment along does.    You guys can start swirling your index fingers around your temple now.



You just described my sister. She is all about what Satan can do but mention anything about spirits or guardian angels and she says no way.


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## welderguy (Mar 10, 2015)

I knew a kid that I grew up with that got into satanic worship, black magic, the occult and the whole nine yards.Well, I tried to avoid him because he was the meanest kid I'd ever known.Downright evil.But, one summer we both ended up at a church camp meeting.All week this kid (he was about 17) terrorized all the kids with his dark behavior.But I will never forget what happened on the last night of the camp.A group of the older boys cornered him at the edge of the woods and began asking him questions.The kid began speaking in a strangely different voice and was very resistant to their questions at first.The older boys persisted and some began to pray out loud.I wasn't in the group but was close enough to hear it all.I remember distinctly cold chills went up my back and suddenly the wind began to blow the trees in kind of a swirling motion.As all this was happening the boy began to weep uncontrollably.Ever since that night, that kid has been the sweetest person I know.Something happened to him spiritually.I believe God cast out demons.that's my take.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 11, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I knew a kid that I grew up with that got into satanic worship, black magic, the occult and the whole nine yards.Well, I tried to avoid him because he was the meanest kid I'd ever known.Downright evil.But, one summer we both ended up at a church camp meeting.All week this kid (he was about 17) terrorized all the kids with his dark behavior.But I will never forget what happened on the last night of the camp.A group of the older boys cornered him at the edge of the woods and began asking him questions.The kid began speaking in a strangely different voice and was very resistant to their questions at first.The older boys persisted and some began to pray out loud.I wasn't in the group but was close enough to hear it all.I remember distinctly cold chills went up my back and suddenly the wind began to blow the trees in kind of a swirling motion.As all this was happening the boy began to weep uncontrollably.Ever since that night, that kid has been the sweetest person I know.Something happened to him spiritually.I believe God cast out demons.that's my take.



That is exactly what I'm talking about when I say every day I see more and that our physical environment is being influenced by the spiritual realm in real, concrete, tangible and FELT ways.  It explains soooo much.


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## 660griz (Mar 11, 2015)

EverGreen1231 said:


> Same thing applies to energy. After you learn about physics to a certain point you realize that we don't know anything on a fundamental level when you rely simply on science; we can only use science to describe how these things affect their surroundings.


 What else would you like to know? Why they do it? 




> Seems to me that "I don't know" is a cop out also; perhaps an even bigger one.



Saying "God did it" is a statement that cannot be proved to be true. And if God did it, which one. So, the only honest answers to questions science hasn't found an answer to (yet), is we don't know. 
Saying, "I don't know" is admitting that, well, I don't know everything...yet.


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## 660griz (Mar 11, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I believe God cast out demons.that's my take.



Yea. We cast demons out of a bully a couple times. 
Worship me if you will. 
It was nothing really.


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## ambush80 (Mar 11, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> It's good to hear you talk about supernatural events that y'all have personally experienced.  I think almost all of us have experienced some sort or another.
> 
> It's funny, but even in most Churches where you would think people would readily accept these events as common, people will look at you like you have a third eye.  The funny thing is they have no problem conceptualizing and readily accept the spiritual sphere,(if they didn't they wouldn't be in church)  as long as it doesn't affect or threaten their physical one.
> 
> I'm about to the point ( and this is where most everyone including believers are going to distance themselves), but I'm bout to the point that I think the spiritual (yes, demons and the devil) sphere has more influence on our daily lives than the purely natural environment along does.    You guys can start swirling your index fingers around your temple now.





Just kidding.  If you're gonna believe in Holy Ghosts then it stands to reason that you will believe in Unholy Ghosts as well, and resurrections and water-walking and living in a fish for three days and so on.  It's quite a snowball of things that one might believe in once they accept a Holy Ghost.

Not my cup of tea.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 11, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Just kidding.  If you're gonna believe in Holy Ghosts then it stands to reason that you will believe in Unholy Ghosts as well, and resurrections and water-walking and living in a fish for three days and so on.  It's quite a snowball of things that one might believe in once they accept a Holy Ghost.
> 
> Not my cup of tea.



Yeah as children we are told about ghosts, witches, spirits and the boogeyman.  Then(if you're a Christian) you grow up and realize it's all real.  Ironic huh?


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## 660griz (Mar 11, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Then(if you're a Christian) you grow up and realize it's all real.



Hmmm. Wait. Only real if you are a Christian?


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## welderguy (Mar 11, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That is exactly what I'm talking about when I say every day I see more and that our physical environment is being influenced by the spiritual realm in real, concrete, tangible and FELT ways.  It explains soooo much.



There is a definate world of darkness that exists in the world.We don't often see it with our eyes and I'm glad but we see the affects of it.

Eph.6:12 says "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

We don't have to be afraid of it because "greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world"
God's word tells us if we resist the devil he will flee from us.


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## ambush80 (Mar 11, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yeah as children we are told about ghosts, witches, spirits and the boogeyman.  Then(if you're a Christian) you grow up and realize it's all real.  Ironic huh?




Do you understand how hard it is for someone who doesn't believe in those things to think of someone that does believe in those things as a rational person?


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## ambush80 (Mar 11, 2015)

welderguy said:


> There is a definate world of darkness that exists in the world.We don't often see it with our eyes and I'm glad but we see the affects of it.
> 
> Eph.6:12 says "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
> 
> ...



What is your interpretation of the relationship between God and Satan?


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## drippin' rock (Mar 11, 2015)

I am happy the baby was saved, regardless who heard what. What I can't buy is God stepping in after the mother is dead, and using a female voice to get the attention of rescuers. All to satisfy some master plan.


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## welderguy (Mar 11, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> What is your interpretation of the relationship between God and Satan?



Satan is the enemy of God.Satan can only do what God allows him to do, according to His purpose. (ie. Job 1).


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 11, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Satan is the enemy of God.Satan can only do what God allows him to do, according to His purpose. (ie. Job 1).



I love that you don't see the paradox here. It's not that Satan makes you sin, then, since God allows him to do it and could prevent it but doesn't; and that makes you a pawn in a one person chess game. 

Why even bother with the other personality if they have no capacity but what the first allows them? 

Why couldn't God have the light AND dark sides, instead of shuffling that off on another creation of his?


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## welderguy (Mar 11, 2015)

I don't think you see the sovereignty of God in it all.Sure, a lot of what He does seems parodoxical, but who are we to question what a sovereign God does?
It's not a game, as you describe it.It's His purpose to glorify Himself.


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 11, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I don't think you see the sovereignty of God in it all.Sure, a lot of what He does seems parodoxical, but who are we to question what a sovereign God does?
> It's not a game, as you describe it.It's His purpose to glorify Himself.



Hi, I'm an analogy. I'm used to express complex ideas in a simple format, typically for brevity and ease of understanding. 

The point was that you get moved around the board by God, and when he's moving you from side A, he's God. From side B, Satan, since God also controls Satan. There was no question of sovereignty. Merely one of necessity. 

If God is A, and you are D, but God also controls B and C to make you, D, do something, then why have B and C? 

Don't worry, I don't expect an answer.


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## welderguy (Mar 11, 2015)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> If God is A, and you are D, but God also controls B and C to make you, D, do something, then why have B and C?



For His glory.


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 11, 2015)

welderguy said:


> For His glory.



To glorify Himself. Let's be clear on who is glorifying whom.


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## 660griz (Mar 11, 2015)

welderguy said:


> For His glory.



Does God suffer from low self esteem?


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## ambush80 (Mar 11, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I don't think you see the sovereignty of God in it all.Sure, a lot of what He does seems parodoxical, but who are we to question what a sovereign God does?
> It's not a game, as you describe it.It's His purpose to glorify Himself.




What would you call the things he does that seem paradoxical?  Righteous, I assume, no matter what.  If he allows suffering, righteous.  If he kills women and children, righteous.   Sounds kinda like this:


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## welderguy (Mar 11, 2015)

"Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?" Ps.2:1

"He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh; the Lord shall have them in derision. "Ps.2:4


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 12, 2015)

660griz said:


> Hmmm. Wait. Only real if you are a Christian?



I stand corrected.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 12, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Do you understand how hard it is for someone who doesn't believe in those things to think of someone that does believe in those things as a rational person?



Honestly?  No.  I understand that they have their reasons for their beliefs, just as I have mine.  There's no need or justification to think less of a person solely based on that alone, no matter which position one takes.


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## JB0704 (Mar 12, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> There's no need or justification to think less of a person solely based on that alone, no matter which position one takes.



Agreed.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 12, 2015)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Hi, I'm an analogy. I'm used to express complex ideas in a simple format, typically for brevity and ease of understanding.
> 
> The point was that you get moved around the board by God, and when he's moving you from side A, he's God. From side B, Satan, since God also controls Satan. There was no question of sovereignty. Merely one of necessity.
> 
> ...



Kinda off the subject of the OP, but I would just say that Satan, like us has free will which is a limited sovereignty.
This helps solve your paradox to some degree at least in my mind.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 12, 2015)

I realize this the above post doesn't get to the crux of the matter.  Will try to address it if I get time later.


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## ambush80 (Mar 12, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Honestly?  No.  I understand that they have their reasons for their beliefs, just as I have mine.  There's no need or justification to think less of a person solely based on that alone, no matter which position one takes.





JB0704 said:


> Agreed.



How do you think of someone that believes, truly believes that there is an eight armed, elephant headed, blue skinned deity floating somewhere up in the sky?  How about someone that believes that crystals talk and that certain ones channel mystic energy in such a way as to heal indigestion?  How about someone who eats the ashes of their dead in order to communicate with the elders?

Seems like in every other part of otherwise rational peoples lives they insist on more substance to form beliefs but for some reason when it comes to "spirituality" they give it a pass and the rest of society seems to as well.  It's as if spiritual matters are immune from certain scrutiny.  

But honestly, how do you feel about people that believe in those things I mentioned?  Do you say "Well, they're just confused." or "They're wrong but they're not hurting anybody"?

I have a good friend and neighbor who believes he sees ghosts.  He sees them everywhere.  He thinks he's particularly sensitive.  He's otherwise a high functioning adult.  How would you view him?  I love him like a brother and I trust him in most everything but in the back of my mind I can't help but think that he let himself take a mental break.  He willingly allowed himself to stop thinking rationally.  Or he has slight mental problems (I believe caused by childhood emotional trauma).  

How do you view spiritual mediums? 

I'm not equating deism with mental illness.  I understand that there are lots of different reasons why someone would take a notion to believe in those kinds of things.  They have a long, colored, deep rooted history in our evolution.  Some of those beliefs have been engineered to make profound impressions on people.  The language and the subject matter demand a strong reaction. 

Just like the Willard argument,  I can't see the logic in saying "Everything is subject to the laws of nature ......except this thing".  In the same way I can't get myself to examine all other aspects of my life critically, rationally and objectively......except for this one thing.


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## ambush80 (Mar 12, 2015)

I'd really like to delve into how you guys view people of other faiths.  Are they in a more logical position than an atheist?  Is it OK with you that they believe in weirdo creatures?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 12, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> How do you think of someone that believes, truly believes that there is an eight armed, elephant headed, blue skinned deity floating somewhere up in the sky?  How about someone that believes that crystals talk and that certain ones channel mystic energy in such a way as to heal indigestion?  How about someone who eats the ashes of their dead in order to communicate with the elders?
> 
> Seems like in every other part of otherwise rational peoples lives they insist on more substance to form beliefs but for some reason when it comes to "spirituality" they give it a pass and the rest of society seems to as well.  It's as if spiritual matters are immune from certain scrutiny.
> 
> ...




Basically I've taken this approach.  I realize people believe differently than me...perfectly rational people.  I don't label them as crazy, nuts or squirrels.  I have to think that if a perfectly rational and functional individual has beliefs and practices that I find foreign, then there is no justification for me to think that this perfectly rational and functional individual doesn't have rational and functional reasons for their beliefs/practices, and that is certainly no grounds for thinking less of them or demeaning them.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 12, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> I'd really like to delve into how you guys view people of other faiths.  Are they in a more logical position than an atheist?  Is it OK with you that they believe in weirdo creatures?



Are you wanting input from us believers/ A/A's or both?


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 12, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Basically I've taken this approach.  I realize people believe differently than me...perfectly rational people.  I don't label them as crazy, nuts or squirrels.  I have to think that if a perfectly rational and functional individual has beliefs and practices that I find foreign, then there is no justification for me to think that this perfectly rational and functional individual doesn't have rational and functional reasons for their beliefs/practices, and that is certainly no grounds for thinking less of them or demeaning them.



No demeaning necessary or intended.  It's kind of an assumption on your part that they always have rational and functional reasons for their beliefs.

I can't see how believing in talking animals because your book says so but not believing in the talking animals of someone else's book is rational, or believing in your ghosts but not their ghosts (whoever they might be).


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## ambush80 (Mar 12, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Are you wanting input from us believers/ A/A's or both?



You believers. I think I know how the A/A's feel.


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## 660griz (Mar 12, 2015)

Sorry for the interruption. Is page 2 of this thread loading for everyone?


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 12, 2015)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I love that you don't see the paradox here. It's not that Satan makes you sin, then, since God allows him to do it and could prevent it but doesn't; and that makes you a pawn in a one person chess game.
> 
> Why even bother with the other personality if they have no capacity but what the first allows them?
> 
> Why couldn't God have the light AND dark sides, instead of shuffling that off on another creation of his?




I think the crux of this comes down to how one defines God.  Is he benevolent or malevolent?  

If he's benevolent then there's nothing wrong with him being harsh with us.  His ends justify the means.  

As an analogy we were treated very harshly in boot camp, but there was a goal in sight and a reason for that treatment.  It was to help forge the end product and without it the finished product wouldn't have been of the same quality.

If he's malevolent then he's a sadist and the ends doesn't justify the means, but there's several problems with this that I see.

1) If he's a sadist why doesn't he treat everyone with the same amount of pain and suffering?  Some live a life of comfort while others only know pain.  A sadist wouldn't stand for that.

2) There's no ends to sadism, no goal, no end game.

     If you accept the picture of God presented by the Bible, you would have to say that while he does come off in he OT as harsh at times, one can't honestly make that determination without knowing all the facts and the end goal.  Also, and more importantly, the NT presents us with a much clearer picture of God.  One that not only knows our pain intimately in that he suffered immensely for mankind to the point of death, but also through this very same suffering and death made it crystal clear how much he loves mankind.  You don't die for another unless you place a great value on them.

In short the paradox truly exists ONLY IF you can define who God is and what is his goal.  To do this one would have to be God.  Now THAT is the paradox.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 12, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> No demeaning necessary or intended.  It's kind of an assumption on your part that they always have rational and functional reasons for their beliefs.
> 
> I can't see how believing in talking animals because your book says so but not believing in the talking animals of someone else's book is rational, or believing in your ghosts but not their ghosts (whoever they might be).



I would start out by saying that all religions are exclusive in that they all make truth claims that clearly can't all be correct.  This forces one to discern between them and decide which one.  How to do that?

I will quote Ravi Zacharias here



> A worldview basically offers answers to four necessary questions: origin, meaning, morality, and destiny. In turn, these answers must be correspondingly true on particular questions and, as a whole, all answers put together must be coherent.
> 
> Taking it a step further, the three tests for truth must be applied to any worldview: logical consistency, empirical adequacy, and experiential relevance.



I think those who don't just accept the religion of their parents and really search out the truth for themselves go through these steps(whether they realize it or not) before finally settling on their final view.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I would start out by saying that all religions are exclusive in that they all make truth claims that clearly can't all be correct.  This forces one to discern between them and decide which one.  How to do that?
> 
> I will quote Ravi Zacharias here
> Quote:
> ...


Ravi's quote is smoke and mirrors. It takes you exactly where you WANT to go.


> Taking it a step further, the three tests for truth must be applied to any worldview: logical consistency, empirical adequacy, and experiential relevance


You can apply this test to Santa Claus and come up a winner but that doesn't make Santa Claus's existence a "truth".
He's simply using your desires for what you WANT to be true and making you think they somehow passed the tests and ARE true.
You can apply his "tests" to any culture who ever believed in any "god" and they all will arrive at the same "truth".
It all sounds good but merely takes you around in a circle back to where you started because it proves nothing and does NOT end up at the "truth". 
It takes your right back to -


> all religions are exclusive in that they all make truth claims that clearly can't all be correct.


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 13, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I think the crux of this comes down to how one defines God.  Is he benevolent or malevolent?
> 
> If he's benevolent then there's nothing wrong with him being harsh with us.  His ends justify the means.
> 
> ...



Thanks for taking the time to respond to this. I don't think the free will aspect is tangential to the discussion since, if you take it like welder does, and everything is in his control, then he created everything to happen the way it did. The crash, the arrival of first responders when they did, the voice they heard, the baby surviving, everything. 

The problem with the boot camp analogy is that no one wakes up, or is born into boot camp, not knowing that's where they are or that the goal is what it is. Life is just thrust upon us and we have to figure it out, except that the drill sergeants are behind a veil, working through mysterious ways, and we're left to puzzle out the who and the why with no solid clues, except for the "smart book" laying at out feet, that was written by other recruits and claimed to be the word of the DS's with no way to prove it. 

1) Sadists seek pleasure in the pain of others. Don't you think eternal confusion and self torment would be appealing to a sadist as they observe their quarry? So while Mary Jane gets run over by a truck, people who saw it, or her family, get to torment themselves over what it all means. Why, I even bet that if He's so inclined, He's getting a hoot out of those of us who struggle to figure Him out. Like handing someone a deck of rigged cards just to watch them try to fight royal flushes with that same pair of 2's every time. 

2) The goal of sadism is to serve sadists. Period. Kinda like being happy, happiness has no higher goal than itself. 

I agree with your points about the OT and the NT painting seemingly discrepant pictures of God, but then I think that, if there's a God, there's no reason for him to be simple rather than complex. At least insofar as compared to ourselves. I know I'm not benevolent all the time, nor am I vengeful. It depends on the day, and the circumstances surrounding. I see no reason for Him to be different, if He's there. 

I disagree about the dying for another thing. People get plastered themselves pushing other people out of the ways of cars all the time, and they can be total strangers. Maybe placing great value on all life equals what you said regards to placing a high value on "them" but I took it to be more narrow than that. Perhaps I'm wrong. 

I'm taking the Bible as literal truth when I determine the goal of God. The salvation of all mankind (once they are repentant). For God so loved *the world* that He gave His only begotten Son. Not just the elect, not just the saints. The *World.* All of us. He washed, supposedly, all of our sins away and all we have to do is accept that gift to be given access to paradise. Well, according to some, which is where the paradox arises. 

I may have, incorrectly, said that the paradox is with God. It's not. It's within the people trying to explain the same concept and the same deity, through different interpretations of the same text and contradicting each other, and that same source text.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 13, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> Ravi's quote is smoke and mirrors. It takes you exactly where you WANT to go.
> 
> You can apply this test to Santa Claus and come up a winner but that doesn't make Santa Claus's existence a "truth".
> He's simply using your desires for what you WANT to be true and making you think they somehow passed the tests and ARE true.
> ...



Hey Walt.  I was just thinking about you this morning.  Hadn't seen you posting lately and figured you were gearing up for turkey season.  Was wondering if you have witnesses a decline in turkey numbers?  We have witnessed a drastic decline.  I don't turkey hunt, but this is  the first year in the last 12-15 that the field beside my house isn't filled with 10-30 turkey's every morning and evening.  I've seen TWO in it in the last 2 months,  but it's wrapped up in coyotes every night.

I disagree with your above opinion and don't think you can back it up with reason.  You have to keep in mind it's not meant as a proof., but only process that helps one arrive at the truth.  

I would ask if you feel your world view doesn't meet this criteria?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 13, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Hey Walt.  I was just thinking about you this morning.  Hadn't seen you posting lately and figured you were gearing up for turkey season.  Was wondering if you have witnesses a decline in turkey numbers?  We have witnessed a drastic decline.  I don't turkey hunt, but this is  the first year in the last 12-15 that the field beside my house isn't filled with 10-30 turkey's every morning and evening.  I've seen TWO in it in the last 2 months,  but it's wrapped up in coyotes every night.
> 
> I disagree with your above opinion and don't think you can back it up with reason.  You have to keep in mind it's not meant as a proof., but only process that helps one arrive at the truth.
> 
> I would ask if you feel your world view doesn't meet this criteria?


I have been geared up for turkey season since the day after last season ended 
I'm actually not a good person to ask about the decline in turkey numbers. I hunt in one particular place on public land every year and whether it has been a good year for the hatch or a poor year for the hatch I generally see/hear pretty much the exact same amount of birds every year. What I have noticed is in years past while driving down the dirt roads around where I hunt I would ALWAYS see a turkey or two or three crossing the road etc. Not so much any more.
So Im definitely seeing less birds in the surrounding areas but about the same in the little spot that I hunt.


> but only process that helps one arrive at the truth.


I'm glad you said that because its my exact point that I didn't word so well initially.
You don't arrive at the TRUTH. At least not the truth as in true or false. What you arrive at is what you WANTED to arrive at or what you already believed to be true. You can arrive at the Christian God being the one TRUE God but its not actually the truth as in true or false except to you.


> I would ask if you feel your world view doesn't meet this criteria?


Sure but Im also very aware and honest with myself about what I believe versus what is actual fact. Its why I label myself as Agnostic. I don't believe there are gods but I have to be honest with myself and say I don't know that there isn't.


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## fireman32 (Mar 14, 2015)

The baby surviving isn't a miracle in my opinion, the voice, maybe.
There are several things in the story that could clear some questions up.  Such as, did the responders know it was a woman and child in the car, did they know anyone was in the car?  What did dispatch tell them en route to the call?  Did they know the car had been there 14 hours?  At what time did the mother pass?  I will admit as a firefighter, you have adrenaline flowing pretty strong when you go on a call, which may make you more perceptive to things. I do believe in spirits, due to an experience or two, but I haven't been spoken to during a rescue or any other time.
A book moving on a shelf, not falling, moving. And wouldn't you know, nobody was there but me.  That'll get your attention.


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## ambush80 (Mar 14, 2015)

fireman32 said:


> The baby surviving isn't a miracle in my opinion, the voice, maybe.
> There are several things in the story that could clear some questions up.  Such as, did the responders know it was a woman and child in the car, did they know anyone was in the car?  What did dispatch tell them en route to the call?  Did they know the car had been there 14 hours?  At what time did the mother pass?  I will admit as a firefighter, you have adrenaline flowing pretty strong when you go on a call, which may make you more perceptive to things. I do believe in spirits, due to an experience or two, but I haven't been spoken to during a rescue or any other time.
> A book moving on a shelf, not falling, moving. And wouldn't you know, nobody was there but me.  That'll get your attention.



What do you think caused it?


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## fireman32 (Mar 14, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> What do you think caused it?



Don't know. There are no trains close by, it wasn't windy or storming, no sonic boom. The only proven unseen force there was gravity, but it wasn't falling.  Can't prove it was a spirit, can't prove it wasn't. I don't enter that house anymore.


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## JimD (Mar 14, 2015)

I have enjoyed this thread and most in this section.

I will say upfront I have a strong belief and faith in God. I was raised as a Christian but am not sure exactly what I am now. 

Someone earlier asked for examples of weird happenings or miracles so here is one. Being that I believe in God, I obviously view it as a miracle and/or guardian angel. I was 19 and was driving back to college. In the car with me were my room mate and my dad. It was cold and dark and snowing out and the heat was on and both of them were asleep. I also fell asleep, but I don't really know how long. I was woken up by a hand slapping me in the chest soo hard it knocked me back in my seat. It scared the sh_t out of me. I looked around and my dad and friend we're asleep. I have fallen asleep many times briefly while driving and woken up quickly, startled but believe me this I stance was not like that. I could actually feel where the hand print was on my chest and I was not startled but was physically knocked back into the back rest of the car seat. I will never forget it as long as I live and never mentioned it to anyone until maybe 7-8 years ago.


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## ambush80 (Mar 14, 2015)

fireman32 said:


> Don't know. There are no trains close by, it wasn't windy or storming, no sonic boom. The only proven unseen force there was gravity, but it wasn't falling.  Can't prove it was a spirit, can't prove it wasn't. I don't enter that house anymore.




Here's the thing: Why do you even consider that it might have been a "spirit"?  Because you've been told about spirits and ghosts.  There's a long tradition of stories about spirits and disembodied ghosts.  I admit, Whenever I've been in paranormal situations the first thing I think of is "Was that a ghost?" or "Is that an alien spacecraft?".  It's because I've been prompted to think that.  I'm not being objective.

When I'm visiting my brother in Vancouver and we go into the woods to fish or hike we have a running joke.  Whenever something makes a sound or a branch falls we whisper "Sasquatch!!!!" when we would be more accurate in saying "Black bear!!!".  Even though we're both joking, if we were to see a large, dark,  vertical shape moving through the trees I'm certain that "Bigfoot" would cross our minds.  Is that a proper reaction?  Of course not.  But it's human nature.  We've been prompted.

I think that's what happens when people see god(s) in things or ghosts.  They're taking ancient ideas and attributing them to things prematurely.  

The book moved.  I take you on your word.  You haven't been able to come up with a natural explanation yet.  Why would you or anybody assume that it was a disembodied, human spirit?


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## ambush80 (Mar 14, 2015)

JimD said:


> I have enjoyed this thread and most in this section.
> 
> I will say upfront I have a strong belief and faith in God. I was raised as a Christian but am not sure exactly what I am now.
> 
> Someone earlier asked for examples of weird happenings or miracles so here is one. Being that I believe in God, I obviously view it as a miracle and/or guardian angel. I was 19 and was driving back to college. In the car with me were my room mate and my dad. It was cold and dark and snowing out and the heat was on and both of them were asleep. I also fell asleep, but I don't really know how long. I was woken up by a hand slapping me in the chest soo hard it knocked me back in my seat. It scared the sh_t out of me. I looked around and my dad and friend we're asleep. I have fallen asleep many times briefly while driving and woken up quickly, startled but believe me this I stance was not like that. I could actually feel where the hand print was on my chest and I was not startled but was physically knocked back into the back rest of the car seat. I will never forget it as long as I live and never mentioned it to anyone until maybe 7-8 years ago.



Strange things happen when you're half asleep.  That's a state where several of my paranormal experiences happened.  I've been grabbed in my sleep.  I've felt someone tuck me in.  I've turned the corner from going to the bathroom to see apparitions.  I've heard voices. I've had my keys moved around the house.  It's all still painfully weak evidence to me of ghosts.


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## fireman32 (Mar 14, 2015)

We are predisposed to many things, I'm not sure how many of us have original thoughts not swayed by prior words from others. If I hadn't been told of ghosts would I think something eerie was spiritual? I don't know. I trust my brain and personal understanding of things and experiences enough to lean toward spirits existing. Kind of like gravity, can't see it so much as you can see it's effects.  I know that's not a strong argument, but there it is.  Where did the first notion of spirits come from?


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## ambush80 (Mar 14, 2015)

fireman32 said:


> We are predisposed to many things, I'm not sure how many of us have original thoughts not swayed by prior words from others. If I hadn't been told of ghosts would I think something eerie was spiritual? I don't know. I trust my brain and personal understanding of things and experiences enough to lean toward spirits existing. Kind of like gravity, can't see it so much as you can see it's effects.  I know that's not a strong argument, but there it is.  Where did the first notion of spirits come from?



That's a great question to look into.  I think in prehistory,  spirits were attributed to lots of things that they aren't anymore.  There were Tree spirits, Fire spirits, Lightning spirits, Wind spirits and so on.  The idea of human spirits; disembodied souls, is very old.  

http://www.history.com/topics/halloween/historical-ghost-stories


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## welderguy (Mar 14, 2015)

fireman32 said:


> Where did the first notion of spirits come from?



Great question!

Answer : Gen.1:1-2 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.And the earth was without form and void.And darkness was over the face of the deep.And the Spirit moved upon the face of the waters."


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## ambush80 (Mar 14, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Great question!
> 
> Answer : Gen.1:1-2 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.And the earth was without form and void.And darkness was over the face of the deep.And the Spirit moved upon the face of the waters."



Hardly...


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## drippin' rock (Mar 15, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Great question!
> 
> Answer : Gen.1:1-2 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.And the earth was without form and void.And darkness was over the face of the deep.And the Spirit moved upon the face of the waters."



And other cultures before and after this was written believed in all sorts of spirits/sprites and they had no knowledge of "God".  Typical answer though......


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## welderguy (Mar 15, 2015)

drippin' rock said:


> And other cultures before and after this was written believed in all sorts of spirits/sprites and they had no knowledge of "God".  Typical answer though......



It's not about when it was written, but about when it happened.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 17, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> I have been geared up for turkey season since the day after last season ended
> I'm actually not a good person to ask about the decline in turkey numbers. I hunt in one particular place on public land every year and whether it has been a good year for the hatch or a poor year for the hatch I generally see/hear pretty much the exact same amount of birds every year. What I have noticed is in years past while driving down the dirt roads around where I hunt I would ALWAYS see a turkey or two or three crossing the road etc. Not so much any more.
> So Im definitely seeing less birds in the surrounding areas but about the same in the little spot that I hunt.
> 
> ...



You state that one arrives where one "wanted".
I'm not sure you can make that generalization.
It's a pretty broad brush stroke.
Going back to Ambush's initial post I was replying to, I took his post as essentially asking "if" one is going to buy into the supernatural, how would you discern between the various truth claims/world views/religions?  So, I assumed two things as a given:
1) the individual was at least open to the concept of the supernatural
2) the individual was open to any possibility as long as it 
   best fit the criteria I cited by Zachariahs

I don't think you can charge someone with finding exactly what they started out looking for, if they have no idea what they are looking for.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 17, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> No demeaning necessary or intended.  It's kind of an assumption on your part that they always have rational and functional reasons for their beliefs.



Which is a safer assumption

1)That a person who is perfectly rational in every aspect of their life is rational when it comes their personal beliefs or
2) That a person who is perfectly rational in every aspect of their life is irrational when it comes to their personal beliefs?


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## ambush80 (Mar 17, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Which is a safer assumption
> 
> 1)That a person who is perfectly rational in every aspect of their life is rational when it comes their personal beliefs or
> 2) That a person who is perfectly rational in every aspect of their life is irrational when it comes to their personal beliefs?



Number 2.  Absolutely, without a doubt and it mystifies me.


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## 660griz (Mar 17, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Number 2.  Absolutely, without a doubt and it mystifies me.



Yep. Truly mind boggling.


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## welderguy (Mar 17, 2015)

660griz said:


> Yep. Truly mind boggling.



There was once a group of people who thought the same thing.I think they described it as : "These are drunk with new wine".


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## 660griz (Mar 17, 2015)

welderguy said:


> There was once a group of people who thought the same thing.I think they described it as : "These are drunk with new wine".



Now we know they are just plain nuts.


> Teacher Says 'Higher Power' Told Him To Attack Kid With Skateboard
> 
> Mom Allegedly Tries To Drown Son In Puddle Because Jesus Told Her To
> 
> ...


----------



## welderguy (Mar 17, 2015)

660griz said:


> Now we know they are just plain nuts.



I think we all are until the Holy Spirit makes a change in our heart.We are capable of doing these same horrible acts of violence.Prime example:the very ones who said "these are drunk with new wine",are the same ones who said "crucify Him,crucify Him!!".


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 17, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Number 2.  Absolutely, without a doubt and it mystifies me.



Would you say you fit in this category also or are you the sane one?  Just curious.


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## 660griz (Mar 17, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I think we all are until the Holy Spirit makes a change in our heart.We are capable of doing these same horrible acts of violence.Prime example:the very ones who said "these are drunk with new wine",are the same ones who said "crucify Him,crucify Him!!".



And the Holy said:
Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire.


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## welderguy (Mar 17, 2015)

660griz said:


> And the Holy said:
> Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire.



Yes.That is very sobering to think about.
Thoughts such as that makes thinking about His grace that much sweeter.

Paul said "And such were some of you:but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."1 Cor.6:11


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 17, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Yes.That is very sobering to think about.
> Thoughts such as that makes thinking about His grace that much sweeter.
> 
> Paul said "And such were some of you:but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."1 Cor.6:11



How did he identify them as elect?


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 17, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Would you say you fit in this category also or are you the sane one?  Just curious.



You can be completely sane and still make that mistake.  

I think of what it would take for me to say to my daughter "No sweetheart, people don't come back from the dead except for these two times. See here where it says so in the Bible?  And animals don't talk......normally, but when God makes them talk, they can talk."   I would feel that I was setting her up for failure; failure to demand better proof of things stated as facts.  Her cousin says things like that about miracles and I can't help but think that she sounds stupider and stupider every time.  It's almost excusable when a child says those kinds of things.  When an adult says it it's like I said, it's mystifying.

I don't want her to blindly accept String Theory or Multiverse Theory either just because someone told her to.  I want her to understand how people came to those theories, the science behind the assumptions; why or why not they are "good guesses".  

I wonder if at some point a believer parent would say to a child "I have faith those things happened.  Don't you want to have faith like Daddy and Mommy?  Don't you want to believe what it says in the Bible?"


----------



## 660griz (Mar 17, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> I wonder if at some point a believer parent would say to a child "I have faith those things happened.  Don't you want to have faith like Daddy and Mommy?  Don't you want to believe what it says in the Bible?"



He he. Yea. That'll happen. They say it with, "Get ready for church." "That is a sin." "Do you want to go to h3LL?" "I know how the earth, and man, came to be." 
"The Bible is the word of GOD!"


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You state that one arrives where one "wanted".
> I'm not sure you can make that generalization.
> It's a pretty broad brush stroke.
> Going back to Ambush's initial post I was replying to, I took his post as essentially asking "if" one is going to buy into the supernatural, how would you discern between the various truth claims/world views/religions?  So, I assumed two things as a given:
> ...


The person must FIRST come up with the thought. Then they apply Zacharias criteria. Since there is no actual proven answer its the person that decides if they are satisfied with the results or not.
Lets use you and me as an example.
YOU using Zacharias criteria believing in God will make perfect sense.
ME using Zacharias criteria it does not get past "go".
We have both shown to be at least semi intelligent people so why the difference?
Because Zacharias criteria does not take you to the "truth" or "correct" or "factual" answer.
The individual, in the absence of facts, decides for themselves.


> 1) the individual was at least open to the concept of the supernatural


I think its very rare that a person is 100% open. Unless they have been living in a cave the odds are way in favor that they already have some concept or opinion on the matter.
I'm "open" to the existence of God. But you showing me how God fits Zacharias criteria isn't going to convince me because I know its all opinion/faith at this point.


> 2) the individual was open to any possibility as long as it best fit the criteria I cited by Zachariahs


Again Santa Claus can be made to fit Zacharias criteria.
Doesn't make Santas existence truth.

Admittedly I have never had what I would call a "supernatural" experience. Couple of instances of 
deja vu but that's it.
However I do know I can turn on the tv and find at any given time on various channels people swearing up and down they have ghosts/spirits in the house, ghost hunters recording voices etc etc.
If that's all true Im not sure "super natural" is accurate and maybe "natural" is.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2015)

660griz said:


> Now we know they are just plain nuts.





> Teacher Says 'Higher Power' Told Him To Attack Kid With Skateboard
> 
> Mom Allegedly Tries To Drown Son In Puddle Because Jesus Told Her To
> 
> ...


Would be REALLY interesting to know if these people had never had the belief in God, Jesus, the Devil etc. if they would have just picked something else like the dog told me to do it or if it was literally their religious beliefs that set them off.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 17, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> You can be completely sane and still make that mistake.



Exactly!   Which camp do you place yourself in?  A or B.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 17, 2015)

I never write letters to anyone or any entity. However, a while back I was watching Discovery channel and some Ghost hunter crappola comes on. I was so PO'ed, I sent off a letter to Discovery channel voicing my distaste their airing of this kind of subject matter on a channel that was supposed to be about real stuff.


----------



## welderguy (Mar 17, 2015)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> How did he identify them as elect?



It doesn't tell us plainly but I would say he must have seen their fruits of repentance.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Mar 17, 2015)

welderguy said:


> It doesn't tell us plainly but I would say he must have seen their fruits of repentance.



I thought election couldn't be bought through repentance?


----------



## welderguy (Mar 17, 2015)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I thought election couldn't be bought through repentance?



You are absolutely correct.Election can never be bought.It took place before anyone was created.If you are elect,the Holy Spirit calls you at some point in your life.When this happens, there's a change of mind and heart.You then begin to bear fruits of your repentance.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Mar 17, 2015)

welderguy said:


> You are absolutely correct.Election can never be bought.It took place before anyone was created.If you are elect,the Holy Spirit calls you at some point in your life.When this happens, there's a change of mind and heart.You then begin to bear fruits of your repentance.



Okay.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2015)

welderguy said:


> You are absolutely correct.Election can never be bought.It took place before anyone was created.If you are elect,the Holy Spirit calls you at some point in your life.When this happens, there's a change of mind and heart.You then begin to bear fruits of your repentance.


Welder I don't mean to be out of order here but knowing a bit about your history, many of your claims seem to be tailor made to fit you personally.
So I have to ask -
How do you KNOW -


> there's a change of mind and heart.


That every elect person REQUIRES a change of mind and heart? They all, every one of them, denied God at some point?
Or does that maybe just happen to fit you?


> You then begin to bear fruits of your repentance.


Again, maybe that just happens to fit you?
How do you KNOW every elect person bears fruits ONLY after this repentance?
You put some major qualifiers on this elect concept.
The elect was chosen by God prior to creation.
But then this has to happen.
Before this happens that has to happen.
When this happens then that will happen.
Every qualifier you put on it reduces the significance of being elect in the first place.
I know you believe you are elect. And you probably believe that because the above things happened to you.
Seems like you believe exactly what confirms your desire to be of the elect.
Just an observation. Not claiming it to be accurate.


----------



## welderguy (Mar 17, 2015)

Walt,the bible tells of person after person who was called by the Holy Spirit in this same exact way I have described.Paul is the one who stands out most in my mind.Nebuchadnezzar is another.Mary Magdalene,Zacheus,Rahab the harlot,thief on the cross,the man in Corinth who was having sex with his step-mother,Jacob,the Ethiopian eunich,and countless others.And yes,me too.Its a pattern of the method God uses to call His children out of darkness and change their will.It doesn't make them sinless but it makes them want to be.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 17, 2015)

welderguy said:


> It doesn't tell us plainly but I would say he must have seen their fruits of repentance.



Good recall as this is a free will believers answer. God looked ahead and based his election on our choice to repent. Repent means to change the way one believes as far a salvation is concerned or to change beliefs.
Repent from a belief that one can't save himself and thus needs God. You call that change "election."

As you stated the repentance from sins comes later by the power of the Holy Spirit acting inside you. This repentance from sins is related to the fruit the Holy Spirit has you bear and is not related to the repentance(change) needed for salvation.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 17, 2015)

Faith in the knowledge one knows about God is what causes him to believe. Rationality & logic aren't important.

The question is where does this faith come from? If totally depraved and thus election is from God then this faith would come from God. 
But we are not excused from knowing God therefore some faith must come form the individual to believe in God.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Walt,the bible tells of person after person who was called by the Holy Spirit in this same exact way I have described.Paul is the one who stands out most in my mind.Nebuchadnezzar is another.Mary Magdalene,Zacheus,Rahab the harlot,thief on the cross,the man in Corinth who was having sex with his step-mother,Jacob,the Ethiopian eunich,and countless others.And yes,me too.Its a pattern of the method God uses to call His children out of darkness and change their will.It doesn't make them sinless but it makes them want to be.


I don't know Welder, seems like you would actually need to know how many "countless" is, which is only your assumption, and the status of the millions upon millions upon millions of other folks before I would call a handful of examples "a pattern".
But admittedly Im no mathematician.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 17, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> You can be completely sane and still make that mistake.
> 
> I think of what it would take for me to say to my daughter "No sweetheart, people don't come back from the dead except for these two times. See here where it says so in the Bible?  And animals don't talk......normally, but when God makes them talk, they can talk."   I would feel that I was setting her up for failure; failure to demand better proof of things stated as facts.  Her cousin says things like that about miracles and I can't help but think that she sounds stupider and stupider every time.  It's almost excusable when a child says those kinds of things.  When an adult says it it's like I said, it's mystifying.
> 
> ...



If your house was on fire and you needed your daughter to jump to the safety of your arms, wouldn't mutual faith be advantageous?


----------



## welderguy (Mar 17, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> I don't know Welder, seems like you would actually need to know how many "countless" is, which is only your assumption, and the status of the millions upon millions upon millions of other folks before I would call a handful of examples "a pattern".
> But admittedly Im no mathematician.



Walt.Even though I get the feeling you're messin with me,I'm gonna play along because I like you.
Now, without naming every single person that was regenerated in the bible, I thought you could still get the point of what I was saying.God's process of calling His children is the same.The only thing that varies is when He chooses to reveal Himself to each individual and the circumstances involved in their life at the time of their new birth.That's why no two testimonies are exactly the same.But the process is.
Not only are the testimonies of the bible consistent but modern day ones as well.Same process.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Walt.Even though I get the feeling you're messin with me,I'm gonna play along because I like you.
> Now, without naming every single person that was regenerated in the bible, I thought you could still get the point of what I was saying.God's process of calling His children is the same.The only thing that varies is when He chooses to reveal Himself to each individual and the circumstances involved in their life at the time of their new birth.That's why no two testimonies are exactly the same.But the process is.
> Not only are the testimonies of the bible consistent but modern day ones as well.Same process.


I'm not messing with you at all. To identify a pattern there are certain things you have to know. You are using words like "countless" because you don't actually know how many. And identifying every person in the Bible is only a miniscule amount compared to the number of people since then. You would have to know about those people too if you are going to call something a pattern.
And I do get the point of what you are saying. But I still see that your point is narrowed down so that you can include yourself in it. For example -


> Not only are the testimonies of the bible consistent but modern day ones as well


Now you not only claim to know there is a pattern but you also claim to know what is consistent. 
How could you possibly know that? Unless you really get around you haven't even heard a fraction of a percent of other people's stories.
And again, what you believe is your business and Im not here to try to change what you believe. 
But you make a lot of claims that simply are based on what you believe that you try to pass off as being fact -


> God's process of calling His children is the same.The only thing that varies is when He chooses to reveal Himself to each individual and the circumstances involved in their life at the time of their new birth.


For someone that cant even prove God exists you seem to know exactly what he does and doesn't do and how he thinks.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 17, 2015)

Acts 2:40-41
With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation."
41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

Those who accepted his message.
Those who believed what Peter said.
So those who received his word.

My observations of the Pentecost;                                                                     Peter warned and pleaded.                                                                                        It took faith to believe.
Through faith to believe one would "save yourself." 
It was only 3,000 people which I guess is not many people at all when you think about it. 
The only people elected during this event were the one's who heard the message, accepted it to be true, and who had the faith to believe it.


----------



## welderguy (Mar 17, 2015)

I was once dead but now I'm alive.Blind but now I see.

Eph.2:4-5 "But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)."


----------



## bullethead (Mar 17, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> For someone that cant even prove God exists you seem to know exactly what he does and doesn't do and how he thinks.


It is no surprise that "gods" just so happen to think EXACTLY like individual followers think, love the same things that individual followers love, hate the exact same things each individual hates and are also understood ONLY by these same individuals who self proclaim to be part of a group that does not exist (elect) and chosen by a being that only exists in their own mind.

Yeah...I am part of the elect too.(prove me wrong..right?)
My God made me to be exactly who I am, to do exactly what I do, and I will be rewarded for my participation when I die.
Wow do I feel good about myself and life now.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 17, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I was once dead but now I'm alive.Blind but now I see.
> 
> Eph.2:4-5 "But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)."


Yes quoting scripture allows you to avoid the tough questions.
Its really transparent though.


----------



## welderguy (Mar 18, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes quoting scripture allows you to avoid the tough questions.
> Its really transparent though.



I'm still trying to figure out which of these verses applies here.

Prov.26:4"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou be like unto him."

Or...

Prov.26:5"Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit."

Walt? Bullet? Which one?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 18, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I'm still trying to figure out which of these verses applies here.
> 
> Prov.26:4"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou be like unto him."
> 
> ...


If you view people asking you tough questions as fools you could always just not participate at all.
What does it say about your honesty to participate in discussions knowing full well your intentions are to avoid anything that challenges you?
Maybe instead of trying to figure out what applies to us you could look for what applies to you?


----------



## 660griz (Mar 18, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> Would be REALLY interesting to know if these people had never had the belief in God, Jesus, the Devil etc. if they would have just picked something else like the dog told me to do it or if it was literally their religious beliefs that set them off.



I think there is a strong link between forms of mental illness and religion. 
If they didn't know about God, the voices would still be there. They could quite possibly blame the dog. 

Larry Flynt 'found' God for a year and was born again. Found out he was bipolar, took medicine to get better and became an atheist.


----------



## 660griz (Mar 18, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I'm still trying to figure out which of these verses applies here.
> 
> Prov.26:4"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou be like unto him."
> 
> ...



The great thing about the bible. Choose whichever one you like. 
Discount the other as interpretation.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I'm still trying to figure out which of these verses applies here.
> 
> Prov.26:4"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou be like unto him."
> 
> ...



Neither. Mainly because I do not know what type of work you do but I highly doubt your reply to everything regarding that work and daily life is done with a scripture quote, so all we are asking is for some direct conversation in here without the nonsensical (to us)scripture. Or are you calling us fools but are hiding behind some biblical quotes in order to say.." well I didn't call you names...Jesus did"? Nothing like some good old scriptural insults to pass the buck.
Then again since you believe in those writings, they may be referring to you??


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 18, 2015)

660griz said:


> I think there is a strong link between forms of mental illness and religion.
> If they didn't know about God, the voices would still be there. They could quite possibly blame the dog.
> 
> Larry Flynt 'found' God for a year and was born again. Found out he was bipolar, took medicine to get better and became an atheist.





> I think there is a strong link between forms of mental illness and religion.


That statement would sound really bad if one didn't know what you really meant 
Or maybe you said exactly what you meant 
But yes from a scientific standpoint its really interesting how in these cases the mentally ill mind seems to view
their religious beliefs as a "permission slip" to do some atrocious things.
Its literally the sole reason they give for what they did.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I'm still trying to figure out which of these verses applies here.
> 
> Prov.26:4"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou be like unto him."
> 
> ...



Why are you so quick to offer verses that you think apply to others yet avoid the ones meant directly for you?
 Do not exploit the poor because they are poor
and do not crush the needy in court
for Yahweh will take up their case
and will plunder those who plunder them. (Proverbs 22:22-23)


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## 660griz (Mar 18, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> That statement would sound really bad if one didn't know what you really meant


 I am glad. I didn't want to get all 'wordy'. 


> Or maybe you said exactly what you meant


 Kinda. I certainly didn't mean everyone who is religious is mentally ill. I have no evidence of that...yet.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 18, 2015)

bullethead said:


> Neither. Mainly because I do not know what type of work you do but I highly doubt your reply to everything regarding that work and daily life is done with a scripture quote, so all we are asking is for some direct conversation in here without the nonsensical (to us)scripture. Or are you calling us fools but are hiding behind some biblical quotes in order to say.." well I didn't call you names...Jesus did"? Nothing like some good old scriptural insults to pass the buck.
> Then again since you believe in those writings, they may be referring to you??


The dudes who wrote the Bible were pretty smart to provide a built in defense that not only allows you to avoid thinking but literally indoctrinates you to avoid questions.
There is a reason for that and we know what it is.
Truth will always stand up to questions. 
When you are taught to avoid questions.............


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> The dudes who wrote the Bible were pretty smart to provide a built in defense that not only allows you to avoid thinking but literally indoctrinates you to avoid questions.
> There is a reason for that and we know what it is.
> Truth will always stand up to questions.
> When you are taught to avoid questions.............



What I find almost comical is that there were no dudes that actually wrote "the bible"..well except later on...it is all a conglomeration of various works that got pieced together. Solomon's proverbs are no more divine than Ben Franklin's.
Those early rulers were using a god to enforce the people to obey the rulers wishes.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 18, 2015)

bullethead said:


> What I find almost comical is that there were no dudes that actually wrote "the bible"..well except later on...it is all a conglomeration of various works that got pieced together. Solomon's proverbs are no more divine than Ben Franklin's.
> Those early rulers were using a god to enforce the people to obey the rulers wishes.


Yeah my use of "dudes who wrote the Bible" wasn't very accurate when you consider the facts of how the Bible came to be.


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## welderguy (Mar 18, 2015)

Walt and Bullet,
I want to apologize to both of you for the mean spirit I had towards you last night.I confess it was not done with love in my heart.I'd like to blame my grumpiness on the nightshift work but that's no excuse.
Paul said even if I speak with tongues of angels, if there's no charity, I sound like clanking metal.I hope you can forgive me.Even though we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things(especially the bible), there's no reason we  shouldn't esteem one another better than ourselves.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 18, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Walt and Bullet,
> I want to apologize to both of you for the mean spirit I had towards you last night.I confess it was not done with love in my heart.I'd like to blame my grumpiness on the nightshift work but that's no excuse.
> Paul said even if I speak with tongues of angels, if there's no charity, I sound like clanking metal.I hope you can forgive me.Even though we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things(especially the bible), there's no reason we  shouldn't esteem one another better than ourselves.


No worries.
Maybe just keep in mind we, the "bad guys", have never referred to you as a fool.


----------



## welderguy (Mar 18, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> No worries.
> Maybe just keep in mind we, the "bad guys", have never referred to you as a fool.



No sir, you have not, although I am the worst fool that ever lived.
There are no "good guys"by the way, we are all "bad guys".

Anyway, thanks for understanding Walt.


----------



## drippin' rock (Mar 18, 2015)

welderguy said:


> No sir, you have not, although I am the worst fool that ever lived.
> There are no "good guys"by the way, we are all "bad guys".
> 
> Anyway, thanks for understanding Walt.



Why?


----------



## welderguy (Mar 18, 2015)

drippin' rock said:


> Why?



Romans 3:6 says there is none righteous, no not one.
We have no righteousness we can claim as our own.If we have any, it's because it was given(imputed) unto us by Jesus Christ.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Walt and Bullet,
> I want to apologize to both of you for the mean spirit I had towards you last night.I confess it was not done with love in my heart.I'd like to blame my grumpiness on the nightshift work but that's no excuse.
> Paul said even if I speak with tongues of angels, if there's no charity, I sound like clanking metal.I hope you can forgive me.Even though we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things(especially the bible), there's no reason we  shouldn't esteem one another better than ourselves.



I have got no problem with you welder, it takes much more than that to upset or offend me. No harm as far as I am concerned.

The hypocrisy of believers, who constantly praise the book that they want everyone else to think preaches love and peace yet use the same book to cherry pick verses that say otherwise, never ceases to amaze me.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 18, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Romans 3:6 says there is none righteous, no not one.
> We have no righteousness we can claim as our own.If we have any, it's because it was given(imputed) unto us by Jesus Christ.



Well...Paul says......


----------



## Israel (Mar 19, 2015)

In this world of men, then, where surely not only those who "lie" in the name of God are found to be hypocrites, and the purest wisdom seems it must present itself as cynicism...

To you, how would one be received for being honest and true, and not relatively so, but to the bone? What does "your gut" tell you he must receive of such men as his reward? What would it cost _you _ to be made true to every word you have ever spoken?
Do you know?
Or is the only hypocrisy that escapes your notice your own?

What happens in the heart of a man when he perceives the universality of this as truth: "All of a man's ways are right in his own eyes"?

And the thing is no one need answer unless they are compelled to lie by saying "Everything I speak is always the truth".


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## 660griz (Mar 19, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Romans 3:6 says there is none righteous, no not one.
> We have no righteousness we can claim as our own.If we have any, it's because it was given(imputed) unto us by Jesus Christ.



Yea well, in that same bible, I read a story of a man, random old guy, that built a huge boat that would hold 2 of every animal on earth. Then, he waited while the animals, only the 2 that were chosen, walked from all across the planet and voluntarily got on his boat. Just he and his wife cared for and fed every animal on earth for 40 days and 40 nights. Why? Because God said he was going to kill every living thing on earth. Instead of God just educating these folks, or just killing the evil ones, he killed them all. During this flood, no other boat on the planet worked. Strange. 

I label a book that contains the above story as fiction.
If I know the above is fiction, it follows that it is all fiction.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 19, 2015)

660griz said:


> Yea well, in that same bible, I read a story of a man, random old guy, that built a huge boat that would hold 2 of every animal on earth. Then, he waited while the animals, only the 2 that were chosen, walked from all across the planet and voluntarily got on his boat. Just he and his wife cared for and fed every animal on earth for 40 days and 40 nights. Why? Because God said he was going to kill every living thing on earth. Instead of God just educating these folks, or just killing the evil ones, he killed them all. During this flood, no other boat on the planet worked. Strange.
> 
> I label a book that contains the above story as fiction.
> If I know the above is fiction, it follows that it is all fiction.



This is more to the point of the OP.

These "miracles:.......Man!  You guys have to find a way to get everyone of you on board that they are Metaphors.  If you keep insisting that they happened you will always be looked at by non-believers as a bit kooky.  


As an aside: Don't you find it odd that you think that other religions miracle stories are fake/improbable or even silly but not your own?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Mar 19, 2015)

660griz said:


> Yea well, in that same bible, I read a story of a man, random old guy, that built a huge boat that would hold 2 of every animal on earth. Then, he waited while the animals, only the 2 that were chosen, walked from all across the planet and voluntarily got on his boat. Just he and his wife cared for and fed every animal on earth for 40 days and 40 nights. Why? Because God said he was going to kill every living thing on earth. Instead of God just educating these folks, or just killing the evil ones, he killed them all. During this flood, no other boat on the planet worked. Strange.
> 
> I label a book that contains the above story as fiction.
> If I know the above is fiction, it follows that it is all fiction.



Not a bad movie, though.


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## 660griz (Mar 19, 2015)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Not a bad movie, though.



Yes. I have to hand it to the Bible. Some great movies have come from it. Right up there with Lord of the Rings.


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## StriperrHunterr (Mar 19, 2015)

660griz said:


> Yes. I have to hand it to the Bible. Some great movies have come from it. Right up there with Lord of the Rings.



I wasn't trying to denigrate the Bible. Standing alone, _Noah_ is a pretty decent flick.


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## 660griz (Mar 19, 2015)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I wasn't trying to denigrate the Bible. Standing alone, _Noah_ is a pretty decent flick.



And I was agreeing with you.
"Passion of the Christ", "The Ten Commandments", were pretty good flicks too.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 19, 2015)

660griz said:


> And I was agreeing with you.
> "Passion of the Christ", "The Ten Commandments", were pretty good flicks too.





> "The Ten Commandments"


The old Charlton Heston one? 
That was on just the other day.


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## 660griz (Mar 19, 2015)

WaltL1 said:


> The old Charlton Heston one?
> That was on just the other day.



That's the one.


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