# You can know something exist, but you can never know something does not exist



## Thanatos (May 16, 2011)

Thoughts?


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## pbradley (May 16, 2011)

"existice"?


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## WTM45 (May 16, 2011)

You can know both, within set parameters.


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## Thanatos (May 16, 2011)

pbradley said:


> "existice"?



Yikes! Thanks


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## Thanatos (May 16, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> You can know both, within set parameters.



Okay. The parameters are what human perception and knowledge can tell us.


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## WTM45 (May 16, 2011)

Correct.
Start throwing in the imagined and the supernatural and all bets are off.


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## TripleXBullies (May 17, 2011)

thanatos said:


> thoughts?



what?


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## bullethead (May 17, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> Okay. The parameters are what human perception and knowledge can tell us.



If everything boils down to human perception, knowledge and parameters then it exists or does not exist within those same guidelines.
In another thread we discussed math equations that would not "be" without accepted human knowledge and guidance, we said the animals do not know of numbers or of anything beyond simple everyday life because they are less intelligent animals. They do not speak of Gods existence. So without humans there is no God. God exists because humans exist. The difference is ALL the knowledge and guidelines we use to prove everything else in life is conveniently thrown out the window for something imaginary.


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## Thanatos (May 17, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> what?



What is your perception and opinion of the title?


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## Thanatos (May 17, 2011)

bullethead said:


> If everything boils down to human perception, knowledge and parameters then it exists or does not exist within those same guidelines.
> In another thread we discussed math equations that would not "be" without accepted human knowledge and guidance, we said the animals do not know of numbers or of anything beyond simple everyday life because they are less intelligent animals. They do not speak of Gods existence. So without humans there is no God. God exists because humans exist. The difference is ALL the knowledge and guidelines we use to prove everything else in life is conveniently thrown out the window for something imaginary.



Yada yada...you still are not answering the question. If you want to argue that we live in "the matrix" that's fine, but you know where we go after that?


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## Thanatos (May 17, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> Correct.
> Start throwing in the imagined and the supernatural and all bets are off.



missing the point...that is another conversation

You guys are not accepting the obvious. I can NEVER say an action will not happen in the future. I can say an action did happen. Now I could have perceived that action incorrectly and am now lying to myself, but I can NEVER tell my self that an action or event does not and will not exist.


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## WTM45 (May 17, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> I can NEVER say an action will not happen in the future. I can say an action did happen. Now I could have perceived that action incorrectly and am now lying to myself, but I can NEVER tell my self that an action or event does not and will not exist.



There are certain laws of nature that can not be broken.  Following those parameters, strong statements of fact can be made.

Sulfuric acid will burn human flesh.  Fact.
You can attempt to tell yourself sulfuric acid makes a great skin cream, but that does not make it so. 

I can firmly state I will never, under my own power, be able to broad jump 100'.  That event will not happen.
And, I will never set foot on Mars.


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## bullethead (May 18, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> Yada yada...you still are not answering the question. If you want to argue that we live in "the matrix" that's fine, but you know where we go after that?



Show me the question.



Thanatos said:


> You can know something exist, but you can never know something does not exist



Is that a question?


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## Thanatos (May 19, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Is that a question?



Yes.

Why do we know an event could happen, but we can not say an event will NEVER happen.


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## Thanatos (May 19, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> There are certain laws of nature that can not be broken.  Following those parameters, strong statements of fact can be made.
> 
> Sulfuric acid will burn human flesh.  Fact.
> You can attempt to tell yourself sulfuric acid makes a great skin cream, but that does not make it so.
> ...



Under the right changes to our environment and human biology your two facts can be disproven in a future state. Of coarse right now you are correct, but you are missing the biggest point of all. You can not prove that if you poured it on your hand tomorrow it would burn you. You cant know that. There is 99% chance the same effect will happen, but you can not know with 100% certainty. Correct?


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## bullethead (May 20, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> Yes.
> 
> Why do we know an event could happen, but we can not say an event will NEVER happen.



I guess we cannot say something will never happen so at best it is a guess or wishful thinking. When something does happen it is backed by evidence and that proof lends to the credibility of the event.


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## WTM45 (May 20, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> Under the right changes to our environment and human biology your two facts can be disproven in a future state. Of coarse right now you are correct, but you are missing the biggest point of all. You can not prove that if you poured it on your hand tomorrow it would burn you. You cant know that. There is 99% chance the same effect will happen, but you can not know with 100% certainty. Correct?



Experimentation and historical scientific results prove otherwise.
Dependability of scientific method results can be trusted.

Your first sentence is attempting to change known parameters.  Therefore you are getting into the realm of speculation, the imagined and the supernatural.

There is no assumption necessary when one knows something to be a fact.


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## Thanatos (May 20, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I guess we cannot say something will never happen so at best it is a guess or wishful thinking. When something does happen it is backed by evidence and that proof lends to the credibility of the event.



Exactly.


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## Thanatos (May 20, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> Experimentation and historical scientific results prove otherwise.
> Dependability of scientific method results can be trusted.
> 
> Your first sentence is attempting to change known parameters.  Therefore you are getting into the realm of speculation, the imagined and the supernatural.
> ...



They can be trusted until they are disproven by another scientist with better scientific processes and knowledge of the subject at hand. 

Here is an example of how one of your "facts" could be false. If you were on a planet with less gravity than earth you could possibly accomplish your 100 foot broad jump.


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## WTM45 (May 20, 2011)

Thanatos said:


> Here is an example of how one of your "facts" could be false. If you were on a planet with less gravity than earth you could possibly accomplish your 100 foot broad jump.



That's quite outside of our current parameters, correct?


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## Thanatos (May 21, 2011)

WTM45 said:


> That's quite outside of our current parameters, correct?



This was our agreed parameters. 

"Okay. The parameters are what human perception and knowledge can tell us."

So, no. That is not outside the parameters. Laws of gravity tells you could jump 100 feet if you tried to jump in an environment with less gravity.


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## WTM45 (May 21, 2011)

Me being on any planet other than Earth is totally imaginative and supernatural.

I ain't goin' anywhere.  End of story!


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