# Game Wardens.



## Mossy78 (Dec 8, 2013)

I've been thinking about this for quite some time and wanted to hear others opinion on the matter.
Game Wardens have powers above police officers in most states. They can walk onto private property, locked gate or not without permission from the landowners, and that's not all they can do.
They can even stop vehicles if occupants appear to be on their way to or from hunting and search the vehicle without any warrant needed.
Street cops / state officers can't make similar unwarranted stops, it would be a direct violation of the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits warrantless or unreasonable searches.
Vermont prohibits wardens from entering posted property without landowner permission or a warrant, so they actually have to do some "police work" before entering private property, but not so here in Ga.
What do you guys think, should the Game Warden be above the law and most importantly, above the Fourth Amendment.
Some people will say " if you aren't doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear", I hunt legally and follow all Ga game laws.
I just don't think Mr Green jeans should be allowed free reign.


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## dwhee87 (Dec 8, 2013)

Mossy78 said:


> What do you guys think, should the Game Warden be above the law and most importantly, above the Fourth Amendment.



Nope, and I would venture that if challenged in court, they would lose.


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## Throwback (Dec 8, 2013)

Game wardens have the same powers as all other police officers. A search warrant is NOT required to go on land-even of posted- that is not a house and it's curtailage. There are several us supreme court cases upholding this.

This is referred to as the "open fields doctrine" and it has been in place since the founding of the country. 
The fourth amenent DOES NOT SAY that a search warrant is required for any search.  There are around a dozen exceptions to the requirement for a search warrant and this is one  of them


The only real difference in a game wardens "power" In this area and any other officer is that in georgia law it is written into law that they can go onto property outside of buildings posted or otherwise" but so can any other officer based on case law/court decisions.


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## Atlanta Dawg (Dec 8, 2013)

You're right....with the advancement of technology with Google Earth, Helicopters, Super Cameras, DNA Testing, Probably Drones at some point in time.....You can see where this is going...very touchy subject for sure... It will be interesting to watch this thread !! All of these areas and more tell me that Georgia needs to Legalize Baiting and allow their DNR Field Rangers to concentrate on serious matters such as Poaching, Night Hunting, Road Hunting, No License, etc... as opposed to the "Low Hanging Fruit" that fills up a citation book with corn that is purchased and aids the overall economy and taxed !!!


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## Throwback (Dec 8, 2013)

Also as far as a warden a stopping a car for "no reason" 
  It's called "articulable reasonable suspicion"band any officer can stop a car for the same basic reason


T


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## Throwback (Dec 8, 2013)

Atlanta Dawg said:


> You're right....with the advancement of technology with Google Earth, Helicopters, Super Cameras, DNA Testing, Probably Drones at some point in time.....You can see where this is going...very touchy subject for sure... It will be interesting to watch this thread !!



Viewing people's houses by helicopter and seeing violations of then law and making charges has already been done and cleared as generally acceptable by several US Supreme Court cases also. 

And it was a "regular" police officer in these cases also not a game warden








T


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## Mossy78 (Dec 8, 2013)

dwhee87 said:


> Nope, and I would venture that if challenged in court, they would lose.



You would think, but..
The U.S. Supreme Court doesn't think so, it denied a request to review a California Supreme Court ruling that upheld traffic stops and vehicle searches by Game Wardens who did not have a warrant or probable cause.
California Supreme Court Chief Justice Tani Cantil-Sakauye said in the Courts majority opinion the " need to protect wildlife for future generations outweighs the minor intrusion of a vehicle stop, Someone who has chosen to engage in the heavily regulated activity of hunting or fishing has a diminished reasonable expectation of privacy"

The Supreme Court has made several rulings in favor of warrantless searches  by LEO's.
In 1924 they passed the "Open Fields Doctrine" which states " The special protection afforded by the 4th Amendment to the people in their persons, houses, papers, and effects is not extended to the fields."
It then goes on to state that, that an open field does not necessarily mean open or field.
Game Wardens can enter private property even if they don't see anyone involved in hunting or fishing.


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## Mossy78 (Dec 8, 2013)

Throwback said:


> This is referred to as the "open fields doctrine" and it has been in place since the founding of the country.
> The fourth amenent DOES NOT SAY that a search warrant is required for any search.  There are around a dozen exceptions to the requirement for a search warrant and this is one  of them



The "Open Fields Doctrine" was put in place in 1924, just a few days after the founding..


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## Mossy78 (Dec 8, 2013)

Throwback said:


> Also as far as a warden a stopping a car for "no reason"
> It's called "articulable reasonable suspicion"band any officer can stop a car for the same basic reason
> 
> 
> T



You are pretty much correct on reasonable  articulable suspicion, but what gives RAS when I'm just wearing camo riding a country road?
City / State cops don't have this power..
And if city / state LEO did, it would be thrown out of court, not so with Mr green jeans.


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## Throwback (Dec 8, 2013)

Mossy78 said:


> The "Open Fields Doctrine" was put in place in 1924, just a few days after the founding..



I am well aware of what year it was put into place formally. I was referring to justice holmes referring to the open fields doctrine being "as old as the common law" in hester v us (1924)

T


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## Throwback (Dec 8, 2013)

California is supreme court cases only have relevance in California


T


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## Throwback (Dec 8, 2013)

Hester v united states (1924)
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/265/57

For those who wonder what we are talking about

T


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## Mossy78 (Dec 8, 2013)

Throwback said:


> California is supreme court cases only have relevance in California
> 
> 
> T


But when the U.S. Supreme Court upholds California's rulings, guess what happens then?
Yep, it has relevance in Ga also...


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## Throwback (Dec 8, 2013)

Mossy78 said:


> But when the U.S. Supreme Court upholds California's rulings, guess what happens then?
> Yep, it has relevance in Ga also...



And if they don't it don't. Basic law

And in the California supreme court case the officer had reasonable suspicion to stop the vehicle to check the guy for license, etc because he had seen the guy fishing. its not like it was a random stop for no reason






T


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## 280bst (Dec 8, 2013)

This is a good thread in answer to the question. 1 No one should be above the Law No one. That being said why do I see Law enforcement breaking the Laws every day. 2 I hunt legal I have nothing to hide. To me that's the same as some one saying "I have nothing to hide the N.S.A. can listen All they want" that's giving up your rights for false security. I've never had a problem with a Game Warden but one. After Carter left in Jackson Co. we got a younger fella that thought he was a super sleuth sneaking in on folks and such. It was fun watching him. As far as some one coming into my house for a search well I just won the lottery as I truly have nothing to hide but that does not mean they won't be challenged publically and Legally. Every one have a good Christmas


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## Mossy78 (Dec 8, 2013)

Throwback said:


> And if they don't it don't. Basic law
> 
> And in the California supreme court case the officer had reasonable suspicion to stop the vehicle to check the guy for license, etc because he had seen the guy fishing. its not like it was a random stop for no reason
> 
> ...



You are right, but again, LEO's can not stop you just to check your papers, they have to witness you commit an offense before they stop you and check your license.
So again I'll ask, why is it Game Wardens don't have to follow the RAS rule?
Reasonable articulable suspicion= RAS

From Wikipedia:
Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard of proof in United States law that is less than probable cause, the legal standard for arrests and warrants, but more than an "inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or 'hunch' ";[1] it must be based on "specific and articulable facts", "taken together with rational inferences from those facts".[2] If police additionally have reasonable suspicion that a person so detained is armed and dangerous, they may "frisk" the person for weapons, but not for contraband like drugs. Reasonable suspicion is evaluated using the "reasonable person" or "reasonable officer" standard,[3] in which said person in the same circumstances could reasonably believe a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity; it depends upon the totality of circumstances, and can result from a combination of particular facts, even if each is individually innocuous.


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## trckdrvr (Dec 8, 2013)

Mossy78 said:


> You are right, but again, LEO's can not stop you just to check your papers, they have to witness you commit an offense before they stop you and check your license.





They do?

Wasn't there recent court cases of state laws that allowed LEO to do exactly that?

Seems I remember stop/frisk?..in several large cities/states?


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## JustUs4All (Dec 8, 2013)

California is one of the states that by statute give their game wardens certain rights to perform searches without warrant relative to their administrative function.  In the course of those searches consent or the plain view doctrine may lead to an arrest or a seizure of evidence of a crime.  

Georgia has at least one similar statute.  O.C.G.A. § 52-7-25 (4)- Gives conservation rangers the right to board vessels in use, for purposes of examining any documents and safety equipment, and to search without warrant any vessel which is not at its regular mooring or berth when he believes that any law of this state or any rule or regulation of the Board of Natural Resources relating to boating has been violated.  Note that the law does not allow this boarding when the vessel is at its regular mooring or berth as it then takes on the characteristics of a residence which is given more protection by the 4th Amendment.  There is probably other similar laws regarding a conservation ranger's activities regarding the enforcement of regulations.


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## Mossy78 (Dec 8, 2013)

trckdrvr said:


> They do?
> 
> Wasn't there recent court cases of state laws that allowed LEO to do exactly that?
> 
> Seems I remember stop/frisk?..in several large cities/states?



You're correct, and it was deemed unconstitutional in court.


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## tr21 (Dec 8, 2013)

You are right, but again, LEO's can not stop you just to check your papers, they have to witness you commit an offense before they stop you and check your license.
So again I'll ask, why is it Game Wardens don't have to follow the RAS rule?
Reasonable articulable suspicion= RAS

well then how is it they can have a license check in the middle of a road. and ask to see your lic. and ins. ?  but hey I like the idea, if they cant check us unless we are doing something wrong I wont have to buy another huntin or fishin lic. but that will be breakin the law awe - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - who cares they cant check me unless they see me break the law.


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## The Longhunter (Dec 8, 2013)

tr21 said:


> You are right, but again, LEO's can not stop you just to check your papers, they have to witness you commit an offense before they stop you and check your license.
> So again I'll ask, why is it Game Wardens don't have to follow the RAS rule?
> Reasonable articulable suspicion= RAS
> 
> ...





> The rule that a search or seizure is unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment absent individualized suspicion of wrongdoing has limited exceptions. For example, this Court has upheld brief, suspicionless seizures at a fixed checkpoint designed to intercept illegal aliens, United States v. Martinez-Fuerte, 428 U.S. 543, and at a sobriety checkpoint aimed at removing drunk drivers from the road, Michigan Dept. of State Police v. Sitz, 496 U.S. 444. The Court has also suggested that a similar roadblock to verify drivers' licenses and registrations would be permissible to serve a highway safety interest. Delaware v. Prouse, 440 U.S. 648, 663





>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


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## tr21 (Dec 8, 2013)

sorry that first part was from mossy78's post. I have no problem with game warden's being able to check. I am friend's with a few gw's and have no problem with being checked. and to the poster that said baiting should just be legalized ! NO NO NO  if you cant hunt any better than needing to bait something in SAVE YOUR HUNTIN LIC FEE AND GO TO KROGER! huntin over bait aint huntin it's shootin !


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## swamp hunter (Dec 9, 2013)

Side Question on this .
How is Cartiledge defined? Say I've got 5 Acres round my House. It's my yard. How far of a Buffer Zone is there.
I don't like someone peekin in my windows from the yard.


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## JohnnyWalker (Dec 12, 2013)

dwhee87 said:


> Nope, and I would venture that if challenged in court, they would lose.



I would not bet my weekends on that.


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## The Longhunter (Dec 13, 2013)

swamp hunter said:


> Side Question on this .
> How is Cartiledge defined? Say I've got 5 Acres round my House. It's my yard. How far of a Buffer Zone is there.
> I don't like someone peekin in my windows from the yard.



It's fact specific.  The whole 5 acres could be the curtilage under certain circumstances.



> I don't like someone peekin in my windows from the yard



That's why God invented curtain and blinds.


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## JustUs4All (Dec 13, 2013)

swamp hunter said:


> Side Question on this .
> How is Curtilage defined? Say I've got 5 Acres round my House. It's my yard. How far of a Buffer Zone is there.
> I don't like someone peekin in my windows from the yard.



Cartilage is the private area around the home that is used in normal daily activities.  Each case will stand on it's own, but It will include the private area immediately outside the walls of the home and may include outbuildings nearby, especially if they are enclosed in a fence.  Curtilage will differ greatly between a rural farm stead and an apartment in the city.


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## garveywallbanger (Dec 13, 2013)

You could say that GW does not have the right to enter your vehicle while you are not there but they have entered my jeeps time and time again. Strip search with no law broken...been there done that. Try to enforce fictitious laws that are not in Georgia statute or the regulations book ...heck yeah!And some of you members post that your happy to see them...smh. Know the regulation book verbatim and be prepared oh redneck bretheren is my free advice lol.


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## Throwback (Dec 13, 2013)

JustUs4All said:


> Cartilage is the private area around the home that is used in normal daily activities.  Each case will stand on it's own, but It will include the private area immediately outside the walls of the home and may include outbuildings nearby, especially if they are enclosed in a fence.  Curtilage will differ greatly between a rural farm stead and an apartment in the city.



cartilage is that spongey stuff between joints.  
curtilage depends on the individual house/residence. 
Curtilage is basically this:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/curtilage

that said, officers do have the legal right to come onto/into the curtilage of the property to conduct business without a warrant to simply be there. (multiple case laws address this).


T


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## JustUs4All (Dec 13, 2013)

Yep, curtilage [hang that automatic spell checker] is not some sort of magic that prevents the presence of an officer of the law.  It just requires that he have a warrant to search it.  If he has a legal purpose to be there then he may observe those things that are in plain view. 

One example.  A GW is conducting an investigation and needs to ask you a question.  It is reasonable and proper for him to come onto your front porch and knock on your door.  If you have a recently killed bear on the front porch and it is not bear season, the GW is not required to avert his eyes to it just because the porch is part of the curtilage to your residence.


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## savage (Dec 14, 2013)

Nice....


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