# Trout Id



## mikevp (Jan 14, 2020)

I went to NC on vacation this past June.   While there I was able to fish in a small private stream behind our rental and caught the trout pictured below.  It was over 19" and my best to date.  I assumed it was a brown but after showing a few people pictures it made me second guess.
Any ideas on what type this is?


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## dtala (Jan 14, 2020)

Brook Trout, squiggly lines give it away.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 14, 2020)

100% Stocker brook trout.


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## mikevp (Jan 14, 2020)

Thank you!  I'm new to trout fishing but how do tell the difference between a stocked and native trout?


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 14, 2020)

mikevp said:


> Thank you!  I'm new to trout fishing but how do tell the difference between a stocked and native trout?


First of all, there are no 19" native brook trout floating around out there these days. The average adult native brook trout is about 5"-6" long. Second of all, native brook trout live in tiny headwater streams. Third of all, that fish has absolutely no color. It is a pitiful, washed-out fish raised in a concrete pond on trout pellets. Here is what a native brook trout in western NC looks like:








See any difference?


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## Cmp1 (Jan 14, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> First of all, there are no 19" native brook trout floating around out there these days. The average adult native brook trout is about 5"-6" long. Second of all, native brook trout live in tiny headwater streams. Third of all, that fish has absolutely no color. It is a pitiful, washed-out fish raised in a concrete pond on trout pellets. Here is what a native brook trout looks like:
> 
> View attachment 998862
> 
> ...


Think there might be some natives up here NCH?


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## lampern (Jan 14, 2020)

Location.

It should not be hard to find out if that stream is stocked.


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## mikevp (Jan 14, 2020)

That makes sense why I couldn't Id it on Google images and descriptions.  Google almost convinced me it was a hybrid or tiger trout....  so it's just domesticated.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 14, 2020)

Actually, after a closer look, I think your fish is actually a stocker tiger trout (brook x brown hybrid.) They have been stocking a few of them the last couple years.


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## Buckman18 (Jan 14, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> 100% Stocker brook trout.



You sure thats not one of those crossed brook and browns some hatcheries are producing these days? "Tiger Trout?"


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## Buckman18 (Jan 14, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> Actually, after a closer look, I think your fish is actually a stocker tiger trout (brook x brown hybrid.)


That was scary timing


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## TurkeyH90 (Jan 14, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> Actually, after a closer look, I think your fish is actually a stocker tiger trout (brook x brown hybrid.)


Thats what I was thinking. Looks like a washed out tiger trout. Does NC fisheries do such a thing?


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 14, 2020)

TurkeyH90 said:


> Thats what I was thinking. Looks like a washed out tiger trout. Does NC fisheries do such a thing?


They had an "accident" a couple years ago with some brooks and browns getting accidentally introduced to each other in the hatchery, as the game warden told me after we caught several stocker tigers out of Snowbird year before last.


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## lampern (Jan 14, 2020)

TurkeyH90 said:


> Thats what I was thinking. Looks like a washed out tiger trout. Does NC fisheries do such a thing?



No but private hatcheries sometimes raise them


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## northgeorgiasportsman (Jan 15, 2020)

Yes, I think the total absence of spots and the vermiculation all the way down to the belly and on the gill plate would indicate tiger.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 15, 2020)

lampern said:


> No but private hatcheries sometimes raise them


Yes, NCWRC stocks some tigers now and then, just not very often. Year before last they dumped a bunch.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 15, 2020)

Cmp1 said:


> Think there might be some natives up here NCH?


Yes. Plenty, I would say. They will be the northern strain instead of the Southern Appalachian strain/subspecies we have here.


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## mikevp (Jan 15, 2020)

I didn't realize there is so much color variation between stocked and native fish.  Do stocked fish eventually become feral and develop different behaviors, feeding preferences and more pronounced colorations?   This explains why all the rainbows I caught in Cherokee looked different and more bland than pictures I've seen.


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## splatek (Jan 15, 2020)

Looks like a stocked tiger - it happens on occasion and it's a real treat to catch one


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## lampern (Jan 15, 2020)

Is this stream stocked by the state of NC or a private party?


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 15, 2020)

mikevp said:


> I didn't realize there is so much color variation between stocked and native fish.  Do stocked fish eventually become feral and develop different behaviors, feeding preferences and more pronounced colorations?   This explains why all the rainbows I caught in Cherokee looked different and more bland than pictures I've seen.





mikevp said:


> I didn't realize there is so much color variation between stocked and native fish.  Do stocked fish eventually become feral and develop different behaviors, feeding preferences and more pronounced colorations?   This explains why all the rainbows I caught in Cherokee looked different and more bland than pictures I've seen.


Yes, there is a lot of difference between stockers and wild fish, both in appearance and behavior. A lot of stockers have worn down or missing fins, are pale and washed-out looking colorwise, and are dumb as rocks and very easy to catch. If they survive and stay in the creek for a long time, they will color up some and start to feed and act more like wild trout, and get much more wary. 

Typical stocker brook vs. typical wild/native brook:





Typical stocker rainbow vs. wild, stream-bred rainbows:











Typical stocker brown vs. wild, stream-bred browns:


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## dtala (Jan 15, 2020)

beautiful pics Hillbilly!!!!


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## IvyThicket (Jan 15, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> They had an "accident" a couple years ago with some brooks and browns getting accidentally introduced to each other in the hatchery, as the game warden told me after we caught several stocker tigers out of Snowbird year before last.



I appreciate the warden but that did not happen. It was on purpose.

A.) There is no way eggs would survive in a concrete tank full of hundreds of fish who would eat all of them before we could bat an eye.

B.) The hatchery raises 2 types of fish. Triploids which are stocked in the streams but are sterile and won’t reproduce, and broodstock which do reproduce and thus allow the hatchery to carry on the program.  The problem is that the harvesting of the egg and milt, and the incubation are done on site by the staff and then placed into a pressure tank (which is what keeps the fertile egg from dumping the 3rd chromosome thus rendering it sterile and helps explain some of the differences between their wild diploid counterpart) until ready for hatching into fingerlings in which they are moved to a different holding tank. In other words, none of the fish that make it into the stream are bred inside the tanks. The hatchery does it all by hand.

So either these Tigers were bred on purpose which is quite cool or they came from a 3rd party hatchery.


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## lampern (Jan 15, 2020)

As for any tiger trout produced by the state of NC,  NC only spawns brook and brown trout.

So why couldn't some tiger trout be produced by accident?


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## IvyThicket (Jan 15, 2020)

lampern said:


> As for any tiger trout produced by the state of NC,  NC only spawns brook and brown trout.
> 
> So why couldn't some tiger trout be produced by accident?



Because the hatchery technicians strip the eggs and milt (sperm) by hand, and fertilize the eggs themselves. There is no accident when you control the outcome. 

Like NCHillbilly alluded to earlier, the NCWRC either did it for us angles to catch or it came from another hatchery.


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## flyrod444 (Jan 16, 2020)

I had heard that they were raised on purpose but stocked by accident. There were several caught in the DH water a couple years ago and some made it a year in these areas. Here is a nice one one of my clients caught.


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## Tentwing (Jan 16, 2020)

MikeVP, nice tiger trout.


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## Meriwether Mike (Jan 16, 2020)

Cool catch no matter how it happened. I have managed to catch one in my time in NC.


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## Ratrzcer1991 (Jan 16, 2020)

Tiger trout


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 16, 2020)

IvyThicket said:


> I appreciate the warden but that did not happen. It was on purpose.
> 
> A.) There is no way eggs would survive in a concrete tank full of hundreds of fish who would eat all of them before we could bat an eye.
> 
> ...


Just going by what he said. I don't know if they got eggs or milt or something mixed up, or if the whole tale was bogus. Anyway it happened, they stocked a bunch of tigers in the DH creeks that year.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 16, 2020)

lampern said:


> As for any tiger trout produced by the state of NC,  NC only spawns brook and brown trout.
> 
> So why couldn't some tiger trout be produced by accident?


Also lots and lots and lots of rainbows. The average stocking is equal rainbows and brooks, with a much, much smaller percentage of browns.


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## IvyThicket (Jan 17, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> Also lots and lots and lots of rainbows. The average stocking is equal rainbows and brooks, with a much, much smaller percentage of browns.



Lampern is correct, I've been told the NCWRC only spawns brook and brown, and receives the rainbow eggs from Erwin national fish hatchery in Arkansas. I'm guessing all the rainbows the NCWRC raises are triploid and do not reproduce.


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## IvyThicket (Jan 17, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> Just going by what he said. I don't know if they got eggs or milt or something mixed up, or if the whole tale was bogus. Anyway it happened, they stocked a bunch of tigers in the DH creeks that year.



Oh I know, I wasn't calling you out. I've seen the process take place and it's very regulated. If they are in the river, I would bet my last dollar that it was done on purpose.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 17, 2020)

IvyThicket said:


> Lampern is correct, I've been told the NCWRC only spawns brook and brown, and receives the rainbow eggs from Erwin national fish hatchery in Arkansas. I'm guessing all the rainbows the NCWRC raises are triploid and do not reproduce.


I know that the stocker rainbows they dump now are much fiestier, better colored, and taste better than the ones they used to stock years ago. Maybe that's why. I've seen big brooder rainbows at the Davidson hatchery many times. It's been a few years since I've looked around it, though.

I can remember back about 30 years ago, they used to stock some of those golden yellow colored palomino rainbows now and then. I caught a small wild one about 6"-7" long once in a creek near my house.


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## IvyThicket (Jan 17, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> I know that the stocker rainbows they dump now are much fiestier, better colored, and taste better than the ones they used to stock years ago. Maybe that's why. I've seen rainbows at the Davidson hatchery many times. It's been a few years.



Yes sir, they raise them there they just don't spawn them here anymore IIRC. I'm not sure why they get them from the federal hatchery, like you said possibly better quality or maybe cheaper with grants and such. Who knows but I agree I've noticed much better quality rainbows in the last few years than they used to have.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 17, 2020)

IvyThicket said:


> Yes sir, they raise them there they just don't spawn them here anymore IIRC. I'm not sure why they get them from the federal hatchery, like you said possibly better quality or maybe cheaper with grants and such. Who knows but I agree I've noticed much better quality rainbows in the last few years than they used to have.


Yeah, I was talking about the big brooders they get the eggs from. Like I said, that was a while back, been several years since I've been there, though.


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## IvyThicket (Jan 17, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yeah, I was talking about the big brooders they get the eggs from. Like I said, that was a while back, been several years since I've been there, though.



Gotcha. I'm not sure the intricate details anymore, I know I was just told the eggs come from Erwin now. You've got me interested, I might ride over there this weekend and find out.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 17, 2020)

IvyThicket said:


> Gotcha. I'm not sure the intricate details anymore, I know I was just told the eggs come from Erwin now. You've got me interested, I might ride over there this weekend and find out.


Let us know what you figured out if you do.


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## lampern (Jan 17, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> Also lots and lots and lots of rainbows. The average stocking is equal rainbows and brooks, with a much, much smaller percentage of browns.



I have been told (can't verify) NC doesn't spawn rainbows they get them from the feds.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 17, 2020)

lampern said:


> I have been told (can't verify) NC doesn't spawn rainbows they get them from the feds.


Yeah, that's what Ivy Thicket said. I didn't know that.


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## lampern (Jan 17, 2020)

Like I said I could be wrong. Just what I have been told.


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## Philhutch80 (Jan 19, 2020)

You guys are correct. The bows NC & Ga. grow come from the feds either by way of the Ennis National Fish Hatchery or the Hatchery in Arkansas. I visited the Ennis hatchery and they had eight different strains of rainbows on hand and showed how they are distributed through the country. It was very cool. 
I’m surprised nobody has posted a picture of a wild tiger trout yet for comparison as nature does allow that from time to time.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 20, 2020)

Philhutch80 said:


> You guys are correct. The bows NC & Ga. grow come from the feds either by way of the Ennis National Fish Hatchery or the Hatchery in Arkansas. I visited the Ennis hatchery and they had eight different strains of rainbows on hand and showed how they are distributed through the country. It was very cool.
> I’m surprised nobody has posted a picture of a wild tiger trout yet for comparison as nature does allow that from time to time.


I haven't posted a picture of one, because I've never caught a wild tiger to take a pic of. I've always wanted to catch one, but so far, in forty+ years of flinging flies in creeks that hold both browns and specks, I've yet to stick a hook in one. 

I did catch a wild golden palamino rainbow once when I was a teenager, and this funny-looking spotless wild rainbow last year:


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## Philhutch80 (Jan 20, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> I haven't posted a picture of one, because I've never caught a wild tiger to take a pic of. I've always wanted to catch one, but so far, in forty+ years of flinging flies in creeks that hold both browns and specks, I've yet to stick a hook in one.
> 
> I did catch a wild golden palamino rainbow once when I was a teenager, and this funny-looking spotless wild rainbow last year:
> 
> View attachment 999524



WOW that rainbow is incredible looking!!! Love the lack of spots and light parr markings!!! I know since I started back to trout fishing in 2016 I think I have only seen two or three posts on NGTO about folks catching natural wild tiger trout here in Georgia.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 20, 2020)

Philhutch80 said:


> WOW that rainbow is incredible looking!!! Love the lack of spots and light parr markings!!! I know since I started back to trout fishing in 2016 I think I have only seen two or three posts on NGTO about folks catching natural wild tiger trout here in Georgia.


Yeah, never saw one like that. It came from a small creek at nearly 4,000' elevation. We have a strain of rainbows in a couple of creeks near me that have lots of large, black spots, parr marks in adulthood, white-tipped fins, and red/orange slash marks under their chins like cutthroat trout. These are creeks that were originally stocked with rainbows from California in the late 1800s/early 1900s. From what research I've done, these seem to be fairly pure-strain McCloud River redband trout. They look noticeably different from most of the generic rainbows that are common everywhere.


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## Philhutch80 (Jan 20, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yeah, never saw one like that. It came from a small creek at nearly 4,000' elevation. We have a strain of rainbows in a couple of creeks near me that have lots of large, black spots, parr marks in adulthood, white-tipped fins, and red/orange slash marks under their chins like cutthroat trout. These are creeks that were originally stocked with rainbows from California in the late 1800s/early 1900s. From what research I've done, these seem to be fairly pure-strain McCloud River redband trout. They look noticeably different from most of the generic rainbows that are common everywhere.



Ok that is pretty incredible if those genetics are floating around. Have you heard of anyone that has had any sort of genetics study done on those fish to confirm that? Cuz that would be something worth conserving in my opinion.


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## flyrod444 (Jan 20, 2020)

The pic in my avatar is of the only wild one I have ever caught. It was large for a wild one caught around 2 miles above iron bridge in bull pen on Chattooga River. The picture was taken with a flip phone back in the day.


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## Philhutch80 (Jan 20, 2020)

flyrod444 said:


> The pic in my avatar is of the only wild one I have ever caught. It was large for a wild one caught around 2 miles above iron bridge in bull pen on Chattooga River. The picture was taken with a flip phone back in the day.
> View attachment 999548
> View attachment 999549



WOW, if he is still alive he would be a monster nowadays!!!


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## lampern (Jan 20, 2020)

Is it true tiger trout are not actually game fish in NC and Ga because they are hybrids?


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 20, 2020)

lampern said:


> Is it true tiger trout are not actually game fish in NC and Ga because they are hybrids?


I would think any kind of trout would be considered gamefish. Hybrid stripers are, so hybridization doesn't affect their status.


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## lampern (Jan 20, 2020)

I'll find out if hybrid trout count as game fish.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 20, 2020)

lampern said:


> I'll find out if hybrid trout count as game fish.





> The following fishes are designated as inland game fish:
> 
> Mountain trout (including but not limited to brook, brown and rainbow trout)



Yes, any trout, black bass, true bass, or sunfish is a gamefish in NC.


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## lampern (Jan 20, 2020)

Looks like they are not game fish in Georgia though, which really doesn't matter because they are rare.





> (B) Trout:
> [*]
> 
> (i) Rainbow trout;
> ...


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## northgeorgiasportsman (Jan 20, 2020)

lampern said:


> Looks like they are not game fish in Georgia though, which really doesn't matter because they are rare.


Well if you find a mess, keep more than 8 and see what happens.


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## lampern (Jan 20, 2020)

Good luck even finding one tiger trout let alone 8

But I posted the trout species Ga lists as game fish which doesn’t include the tiger species


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## Philhutch80 (Jan 20, 2020)

lampern said:


> Good luck even finding one tiger trout let alone 8
> 
> But I posted the trout species Ga lists as game fish which doesn’t include the tiger species



Maybe we can consult with the trout biologist to change this. Also, I was informed by the trout biologist if there was enough exposure and desire from the anglers we could potentially have cutthroat stocked here. Just an FYI.


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## lampern (Jan 20, 2020)

I’d like to see cutthroat

I’ve never caught one

Put them in the Hooch


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## Nicodemus (Jan 20, 2020)

Philhutch80 said:


> Maybe we can consult with the trout biologist to change this. Also, I was informed by the trout biologist if there was enough exposure and desire from the anglers we could potentially have cutthroat stocked here. Just an FYI.




Interesting concept, but what impact will they have on the native fish?


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## northgeorgiasportsman (Jan 20, 2020)

lampern said:


> I’d like to see cutthroat
> 
> I’ve never caught one
> 
> Put them in the Hooch



They come in over a dozen subspecies and several different color patterns, they often make agonizingly slow takes on dry flies.  And they put up a fight about like one of these....


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## lampern (Jan 20, 2020)

Can't be any worse than a stocked brown or rainbow.


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## Nicodemus (Jan 20, 2020)

lampern said:


> Can't be any worse than a stocked brown or rainbow.




Cant be any better either. You and me ain`t gonna agree on any of this, because you want to change the environment and bring in invasives. I don`t.


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## lampern (Jan 20, 2020)

If the state of Georgia stocks non native rainbows and browns all over the place, how are cutthroats any worse?


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## Nicodemus (Jan 20, 2020)

lampern said:


> If the state of Georgia stocks non native rainbows and browns all over the place, how are cutthroats any worse?




Why not stock some hogs into the WMAs up there while the stocking another breed of trout? Along with the gator gar you want in Lake Lanier. 

If you don`t understand, I`m not gonna waste my time to try to explain it to you. You figure it out.


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## lampern (Jan 20, 2020)

Do you have a problem with Georgia stocking non native rainbow and brown trout?

.


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## deerpoacher1970 (Jan 20, 2020)

If they didn't stock browns and rainbows, they wouldn't be many trout caught in Georgia now would they.


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## Nicodemus (Jan 20, 2020)

lampern said:


> Do you have a problem with Georgia stocking non native rainbow and brown trout?
> 
> .




Read post #63 again and quit asking so many questions.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 20, 2020)

deerpoacher1970 said:


> If they didn't stock browns and rainbows, they wouldn't be many trout caught in Georgia now would they.


If they had never stocked browns and rainbows, there would be a lot more native trout in GA, NC, SC, and TN now. And I like to catch browns and rainbows. They have devastated the native speckled brook trout, though. Some areas of VA have regulations where all rainbows and browns caught must be killed. They are maintaining a good population of native brook trout. I think the southern Appalachians would be swarming with 10"-16" native speckled trout right now if there were no browns or rainbows after the forests have grown back from the industrial logging from the turn of the last century. Some places like the Hooch tailwaters,  browns and rainbows are probably a good thing, because the water is too cold now to support native species.


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## lampern (Jan 20, 2020)

deerpoacher1970 said:


> If they didn't stock browns and rainbows, they wouldn't be many trout caught in Georgia now would they.



Yup,

Hatchery trout are not a problem.

Reproducing wild fish impacting native fish? Thats another story.


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## Buckman18 (Jan 20, 2020)

Nicodemus said:


> Interesting concept, but what impact will they have on the native fish?



I don't think it's really doable here, Nick. Cutthroats die when the water hits 67 degrees, some say 64 degrees. The ONLY stream in our state that does not exceed those numbers is below Buford dam for a few miles. 

Ive caught a few of the cutthroat varieties out west. They are a pretty fish. And very delicious.


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## lampern (Jan 20, 2020)

Kentucky stocks them in tailwaters only.

I'd assume Georgia would do the same?

https://kentucky.gov/Pages/Activity-stream.aspx?n=FishandWildlife&prId=374


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## Nitram4891 (Jan 21, 2020)

mikevp said:


> I went to NC on vacation this past June.   While there I was able to fish in a small private stream behind our rental and caught the trout pictured below.  It was over 19" and my best to date.  I assumed it was a brown but after showing a few people pictures it made me second guess.
> Any ideas on what type this is?



Very nice catch!


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## mikevp (Jan 21, 2020)

Thank you!  It was definitely an experience I will remember and it was a trophy in my eyes.  Although it was washed out and pitiful it seems to be a little more unique than I realized and sparked an very interesting conversation.   And by the way I have been able to see some beautiful pictures posted on here which gives me something to strive for on my next trip!


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## lampern (Jan 21, 2020)

I called the law enforcement about tiger trout and person said they were only aware of brook, brown and rainbow trout in the regulations so told me to call the Gainesville? office to find out for sure the status of tiger trout.

The gainesville people said they would probably consider them game fish and any other trout species.

*So even if a species  trout is not listed as a game fish, the state of georgia considers it a game fish.*


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## IvyThicket (Jan 21, 2020)

lampern said:


> Yup,
> 
> Hatchery trout are not a problem.
> 
> Reproducing wild fish impacting native fish? Thats another story.



That damage was done a century ago, before hatcheries and licenses and such. Wild Brown and Rainbows are as much a part of the landscape today as the native population.

The greater issue impacting streams and the natural ability for wild trout to reproduce, is habitat degradation.


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## IvyThicket (Jan 21, 2020)

lampern said:


> I’d like to see cutthroat
> 
> I’ve never caught one
> 
> Put them in the Hooch



Not cutthroat but you can catch wild sockeye salmon on the Nantahala. That may be as close to a western salmonoid as you're gonna get here in the east. (Besides rainbow).


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## IvyThicket (Jan 21, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> If they had never stocked browns and rainbows, there would be a lot more native trout in GA, NC, SC, and TN now. And I like to catch browns and rainbows. They have devastated the native speckled brook trout, though.



I somewhat agree but the elephant in the room here is the fact that the rainbow and brown have filled a void and thrived in streams where the native specks won't due to pollution. Native brooks aren't found in high elevation streams more so due to the fact that there aren't rainbows and browns, but  because that is where water is free of pollution, rich in oxygen and cooler.

The truth is that in 2020 if they didn't stock, we wouldn't be catching trout in half the streams we catch them in now.


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## northgeorgiasportsman (Jan 21, 2020)

IvyThicket said:


> The truth is that in 2020 if they didn't stock, we wouldn't be catching trout in half the streams we catch them in now.



And around here, you can only catch them in about half the streams you could 25 years ago.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 21, 2020)

IvyThicket said:


> I somewhat agree but the elephant in the room here is the fact that the rainbow and brown have filled a void and thrived in streams where the native specks won't due to pollution. Native brooks aren't found in high elevation streams more so due to the fact that there aren't rainbows and browns, but  because that is where water is free of pollution, rich in oxygen and cooler.
> 
> The truth is that in 2020 if they didn't stock, we wouldn't be catching trout in half the streams we catch them in now.


I agree in some cases, others, not. I think specks could live just fine in all the watersheds in the GSMNP now after a hundred years of forest regrowth, for example. Same on most National Forest land. Elevation has not nearly as much to do with it as water quality, which is definitely not related to elevation. A lot of the higher elevation streams are worse off than the lower elevation ones now, due to acid deposition.

They used to live below 2000', in major waterways, and I still catch them pretty low in places. In a lot of areas in the GSMNP, they are moving back downstream. I catch specks miles lower in several places than I did back when I was a teenager, and catch them in some main stem streams now. In those cases, it's the rainbows and browns that are the main thing holding them down. If they thrive and swarm above a waterfall, but don't exist at all a hundred feet below the same waterfall where browns and rainbows live, that tells you something. A hundred feet upstream doesn't change the water quality, it just blocks the browns and rainbows that out-compete them.

I agree that there are a lot of marginal streams that specks wouldn't live in but hold rainbows and browns. And I agree that wild browns and bows have been here long enough to be considered semi-native species now. And I love to catch them, I surely do. But if there was a magic button I could mash to completely eliminate them from some watersheds, I'd mash it in a heartbeat.


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## IvyThicket (Jan 21, 2020)

northgeorgiasportsman said:


> And around here, you can only catch them in about half the streams you could 25 years ago.



Correct.

Not stocking would not have saved the native population. Being one of the most southern reaches where trout are found in the northern hemisphere, temperature matters. When the hemlocks began to die off, it warmed many of the lower elevation streams to the point that natives would never have been able to exist. Unlike the chalk streams of the UK or wide open freestone streams and the elevation of the west, a naturally cooler climate wasn't on our side and our streams needed the shade to thrive. Take that away and couple it with pollution, sediment, etc and you get the recipe we are seeing now. Laurels and Rhododendrons have helped fill the void on many wild streams but we need more high canopy cooling.


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## IvyThicket (Jan 21, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> Elevation has not nearly as much to do with it as water quality, which is definitely not related to elevation. A lot of the higher elevation streams are worse off than the lower elevation ones now, due to acid deposition.



Disagree. Although acid deposition is a problem on many western facing slopes and high points (especially near the Tennessee border), higher elevation streams are verified better quality due to cooler temperatures, higher oxygen saturation and less sediment. That is without question.

This is straight from the NCWRC page:

_'Wild brook trout are most abundant in isolated, high-altitude headwater streams where the water is free of pollution and rich in oxygen. Brook trout prefer streams with stable water flows, silt-free gravel for spawning'_



NCHillbilly said:


> They used to live below 2000', in major waterways, and I still catch them pretty low in places. In a lot of areas in the GSMNP, they are moving back downstream. I catch specks miles lower in several places than I did back when I was a teenager, and catch them in some main stem streams now. In those cases, it's the rainbows and browns that are the main thing holding them down. If they thrive and swarm above a waterfall, but don't exist at all a hundred feet below the same waterfall where browns and rainbows live, that tells you something. A hundred feet upstream doesn't change the water quality, it just blocks the browns and rainbows that out-compete them.



If stocked fish were a problem for specks, then their own fingerlings would cease to exist. The reason they used to exist below 2000' feet where they don't now is because of water quality and the reason they are beginning to pop up now in lower places especially in the GSMNP and NF, is due to conservation efforts and habitat restoration to improve water quality, such as dumping limestone sand to balance ph levels.

https://wlos.com/news/local/forest-service-what-looks-like-dumping-is-actually-fighting-pollution


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 21, 2020)

IvyThicket said:


> Disagree. Although acid deposition is a problem on many western facing slopes and high points (especially near the Tennessee border), higher elevation streams are verified better quality due to cooler temperatures, higher oxygen saturation and less sediment. That is without question.
> 
> This is straight from the NCWRC page:
> 
> ...


We'll have to agree to disagree on some of that. I think specks could live just about anywhere in the GSMNP right now except for the lower reaches of the Little River, Abrams Creek, and a couple other bigger, lower, warmer stretches. The main reason they don't nowadays is not poor water quality, it's competition from rainbows and browns. I have personally seen rainbows and browns completely take over a couple of really good speck streams in a matter of just a few years after they somehow got around a natural barrier where they weren't before. The GSMNP over the last several years have been eliminating rainbows and browns and restoring specks in quite a few creeks with good natural barriers, all successfully so far as long as they get completely rid of the other trout.

 On the other hand, without the rainbows and browns, there would not have been any trout fishing at all in much of the area for the hundred+years it's taken for the land to heal from industrial logging and farming. And I totally agree that a lot of NC, TN, and GA outside the high-water-quality areas like the national park and wilderness areas would have no trout fishing if not for the stocked fish. 

I love wild rainbows and browns, don't get me wrong. But it would sure be nice to see some more bigger creeks with native specks only where the water quality is there. I'd love to see some of those 14"-16" specks that used to be here in my grandpa's day before they killed the creeks and restocked them with bows.


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## northgeorgiasportsman (Jan 21, 2020)

I think competition from browns and rainbows has to play a role in the absence of specks in certain streams.  How else do you explain the disparity in speck numbers above and below a barrier waterfall?  Does the water quality magically change below the falls so that specks can't survive?  No, the falls keep the browns and rainbows out and the specks above the falls can thrive.


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## IvyThicket (Jan 21, 2020)

northgeorgiasportsman said:


> I think competition from browns and rainbows has to play a role in the absence of specks in certain streams.  How else do you explain the disparity in speck numbers above and below a barrier waterfall?  Does the water quality magically change below the falls so that specks can't survive?  No, the falls keep the browns and rainbows out and the specks above the falls can thrive.



Nobody ever said it didn't play a role, it just didn't play the bigger role in the issue with modern day speck populations. 

Population isolation isn't the answer either but yes physical barriers do work sometimes, but physical barriers naturally separate many different species in the same ecosystem so one isn't necessarily indicative of the other. Just as there are physical barriers that keep rainbows and browns from competing for resources with brook trout, there are streams that have neither rainbow or brown where specks are struggling to thrive.


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## IvyThicket (Jan 21, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> I love wild rainbows and browns, don't get me wrong. But it would sure be nice to see some more bigger creeks with native specks only where the water quality is there. I'd love to see some of those 14"-16" specks that used to be here in my grandpa's day before they killed the creeks and restocked them with bows.



I 100% agree. 100%! 

My point is that right now it's a pipe dream until we improve habitat on a wide scale, and eliminating stocked fish will only cut down on the opportunity to fish, not cause a boom in speck populations because the areas being stocked currently are not the areas where brook trout inhabit. The wild waters of the GSMNP and the NF where much of the habitat improvement is taking place, there is no stocking.

Like I said in post #74, the damage of introducing rainbows and browns as wild trout was done a century ago and there is no going back. I also think that just as wild browns and rainbows can coexist, so to can the brook but the only thing holding them back is water quality and temperatures. Study after study has confirmed that the brook trout is least tolerant to high temperatures whereas brown trout are more tolerant to higher temperatures and polluted waters. I don't believe in many coincidences in life and a fish that is most susceptible to warming waters, disappearing in an era where water qualities and water temperatures continuously decline, doesn't sound like a coincidence in which we should be blaming the brook and rainbow. They have their part, I agree, but aren't the root problem.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 21, 2020)

IvyThicket said:


> I 100% agree. 100%!
> 
> My point is that right now it's a pipe dream until we improve habitat on a wide scale, and eliminating stocked fish will only cut down on the opportunity to fish, not cause a boom in speck populations because the areas being stocked currently are not the areas where brook trout inhabit. The wild waters of the GSMNP and the NF where much of the habitat improvement is taking place, there is no stocking.
> 
> Like I said in post #74, the damage of introducing rainbows and browns as wild trout was done a century ago and there is no going back. I also think that just as wild browns and rainbows can coexist, so to can the brook but the only thing holding them back is water quality and temperatures. Study after study has confirmed that the brook trout is least tolerant to high temperatures whereas brown trout are more tolerant to higher temperatures and polluted waters. I don't believe in many coincidences in life and a fish that is most susceptible to warming waters, disappearing in an era where water qualities and water temperatures continuously decline, doesn't sound like a coincidence in which we should be blaming the brook and rainbow. They have their part, I agree, but aren't the root problem.


I agree with a lot of that, but I also say that if we had never introduced rainbows and browns, I bet you would see a vastly greater range of native brook trout right now re-inhabiting suitable waters as the forests regrow and damage to the land heals. As myself and Wes both said, water quality or temperature doesn't suddenly change at a waterfall, but the species composition certainly does. It goes from almost no specks to suddenly thousands of them thriving and doing well. The only difference is the lack of other trout species. I don't know why, but brook trout here just don't compete well against other trout. The certain thing is that we will never have good populations of native brook trout in streams where rainbows and browns thrive, regardless of water quality or temperature. 

Cutthroats are facing much the same problem in places out west. And brook trout (although northern strain,) have displaced other native trout like cutthroats in some watersheds.
I agree that browns and rainbows are here to stay. There is simply no way to get rid of them at this point, without the presence of a physical barrier. And I wouldn't want to in most cases, but there are places that it would be nice.


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## Philhutch80 (Jan 21, 2020)

Nicodemus said:


> Interesting concept, but what impact will they have on the native fish?



They don’t if they are in Tailwaters. 



NCHillbilly said:


> If they had never stocked browns and rainbows, there would be a lot more native trout in GA, NC, SC, and TN now. And I like to catch browns and rainbows. They have devastated the native speckled brook trout, though. Some areas of VA have regulations where all rainbows and browns caught must be killed. They are maintaining a good population of native brook trout. I think the southern Appalachians would be swarming with 10"-16" native speckled trout right now if there were no browns or rainbows after the forests have grown back from the industrial logging from the turn of the last century. Some places like the Hooch tailwaters,  browns and rainbows are probably a good thing, because the water is too cold now to support native species.


Tailwaters and DH streams would really be the only place you could put them. For example the Georgia DNR wastes hundreds of thousands of Brooks, browns & bows stocking the Hooch DH which is getting blown out again this year. It’s poor use of a resource in my based on old management styles with zero scientific data done to support the validity of the Hooch DH. That’s just one example though. 
I asked Hunter Roop if it was possible to restock the upper Hooch with brookies, preferably SABT to see how they’d fare. He mentioned from what he has read the reason they stock in the DH but not the upper section was based on shocking papers/tech bulletins from the 90’s. 


lampern said:


> Kentucky stocks them in tailwaters only.
> 
> I'd assume Georgia would do the same?
> 
> https://kentucky.gov/Pages/Activity-stream.aspx?n=FishandWildlife&prId=374



Exactly what and where I was thinking. I love the SABT’s & would enjoy seeing more stream restoration occur so they can be more prolific.


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## Philhutch80 (Jan 21, 2020)

IvyThicket said:


> Disagree. Although acid deposition is a problem on many western facing slopes and high points (especially near the Tennessee border), higher elevation streams are verified better quality due to cooler temperatures, higher oxygen saturation and less sediment. That is without question.
> 
> This is straight from the NCWRC page:
> 
> ...



Every biologist I’ve talked to from Georgia & NC mentioned that the loss of the American Chestnut tree had more to do with habitat degradation than losing the hemlocks. Hemlocks produce tannins and acidify soil and streams. Chestnuts were so dense and their nuts so nutritious that when the nuts would break down it would balance the PH of the streams and provide additional nutrients missing. That combined with the loss of topsoil, that was balanced with nutrients, from mining and logging are the biggest factors to overcome.


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## IvyThicket (Jan 21, 2020)

Philhutch80 said:


> Every biologist I’ve talked to from Georgia & NC mentioned that the loss of the American Chestnut tree had more to do with habitat degradation than losing the hemlocks. Hemlocks produce tannins and acidify soil and streams. Chestnuts were so dense and their nuts so nutritious that when the nuts would break down it would balance the PH of the streams and provide additional nutrients missing. That combined with the loss of topsoil, that was balanced with nutrients, from mining and logging are the biggest factors to overcome.



You'll get plenty of different answers depending on who you talk to.

Panthertown Valley is known for it's tea colored water due to pine needles, bark and tannins steeping in the stream from the decaying flora in the surrounding bogs and it hasn't affected the habitat of the brook. As a matter of fact, it might be one of the best brook trout fisheries remaining in the Southeast. The hemlock on the other hand was notorious for it's riparian growth perpendicular to mountain streams and the shade that it provided.

In this study particularly they found that the loss of the hemlock allowed substantially more light radiation but that it wasn't necessarily affecting stream temperatures in the short term. This was from 2010, so it'll be interested to see long term studies.

https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/46553/PDF


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## Philhutch80 (Jan 21, 2020)

IvyThicket said:


> You'll get plenty of different answers depending on who you talk to.
> 
> Panthertown Valley is known for it's tea colored water due to pine needles, bark and tannins steeping in the stream from the decaying flora in the surrounding bogs and it hasn't affected the habitat of the brook. As a matter of fact, it might be one of the best brook trout fisheries remaining in the Southeast. The hemlock on the other hand was notorious for it's riparian growth perpendicular to mountain streams and the shade that it provided.
> 
> ...



I’ve read that study before and partially agree only because we were not around when the chestnuts were thriving. Until we can get stands of chestnuts back and see some data on how the forests responds to them we won’t have relative comparative data. Don’t get me wrong though, it hurts my heart everytime I’ve gone back up to the Tallulah, Coleman and Chattooga and see all those dead giants that used to provide so much cover and mysticism as a kid fishing in those streams. I love the way those hemlocks looked when alive.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 21, 2020)

Philhutch80 said:


> I’ve read that study before and partially agree only because we were not around when the chestnuts were thriving. Until we can get stands of chestnuts back and see some data on how the forests responds to them we won’t have relative comparative data. Don’t get me wrong though, it hurts my heart everytime I’ve gone back up to the Tallulah, Coleman and Chattooga and see all those dead giants that used to provide so much cover and mysticism as a kid fishing in those streams. I love the way those hemlocks looked when alive.


It was heartbreaking to see Cataloochee Valley lose most of its hemlocks. Those were the biggest eastern hemlocks on earth. And oddly enough, I live right across the ridge from Catalooch, and we still have most of our big hemlocks in my valley.


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## Philhutch80 (Jan 21, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> It was heartbreaking to see Cataloochee Valley lose most of its hemlocks. Those were the biggest eastern hemlocks on earth. And oddly enough, I live right across the ridge from Catalooch, and we still have most of our big hemlocks in my valley.



I hope you can keep it that way sir. As we experienced with the fires a couple years ago, those dead stands of timber catch easy and I’d hate to see another fire hit again. Don’t think it will but that is one unfortunate side effect of the wooly adelgid. I hate that bug & the one that spreads chestnut blight.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 21, 2020)

Philhutch80 said:


> I hope you can keep it that way sir. As we experienced with the fires a couple years ago, those dead stands of timber catch easy and I’d hate to see another fire hit again. Don’t think it will but that is one unfortunate side effect of the wooly adelgid. I hate that bug & the one that spreads chestnut blight.


The other unfortunate effect is apparent when you are back in the woods when a storm comes up. Death traps. 

I have spent a good bit of time getting certified and doing trunk injections on mature hemlocks. It buys some time at the least.


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## gobbleinwoods (Jan 22, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> The other unfortunate effect is apparent when you are back in the woods when a storm comes up. Death traps.
> 
> I have spent a good bit of time getting certified and doing trunk injections on mature hemlocks. It buys some time at the least.



I have had success using the ground treatment on my property recommended by the hemlock society.

Lots of places to purchase the chemical but I got mine at Southern States in Cleveland.


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## Philhutch80 (Jan 27, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> The other unfortunate effect is apparent when you are back in the woods when a storm comes up. Death traps.
> 
> I have spent a good bit of time getting certified and doing trunk injections on mature hemlocks. It buys some time at the least.



Thank you for doing that. Every little bit counts these days.


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