# have done what is evil?



## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2015)

John 5:28-29
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Can I assume "those who committed the evil deeds" are the same as "lost sinners?" 
They Bible often uses "sinners" to mean "lost sinners" so I'm assuming this is what this is about.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2015)

Maybe Ephesians 2:1-5 explains it better;

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).

We were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. Something separates those who do good deeds from those who committed the evil deeds.

I believe this to be the washing in the blood of Jesus. By grace you have been saved. You can no longer be labeled as "those who committed the evil deeds" or "sinner." You still sin but the washing makes your sins not count. 
It's like they aren't on your slate anymore. They are wiped clean.

I think after 10 years I finally get it. This forum alone was worth the trip.  

                                                                            Thanks guys!


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2015)

More on grace and the washing;

1 Corinthians 6:10-
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

I believe the "unrighteous" above are the same as "those who committed the evil deeds" or "sinners" before the washing.

Possibly explained as "totally depraved" or at least "sorta depraved." "Kinda depraved?"


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2015)

This is for Gem;

"It's all about that grace, bout that grace!!

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Galatians 1:8
Let God's curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 5:28-29
> "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
> 
> Can I assume "those who committed the evil deeds" are the same as "lost sinners?"
> They Bible often uses "sinners" to mean "lost sinners" so I'm assuming this is what this is about.



Back up to verse 25, The hour is coming, and now is.

 When the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God.

And they that hear shall live.


Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming in the which all that are in graves.

 Keep in mind Jesus ministry was to the lost sheep of Israel, also the resurrection Paul said was the hope of Israel.

 Jesus here is telling them the hour is coming when the dead will be resurrected from the graves and judged. 

Thanks to Jesus the dead have been resurrected, and we have received his reward of eternal life.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2015)

To answer the question though, the evil dead were those like the rich man in the parable with Lazarus. They were both in Hades awaiting the resurrection.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2015)

Was it the good and bad that resurrected? Wouldn't it be safe to say the "good deeds" people were Christians and the "evil deeds" people were not?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Was it the good and bad that resurrected? Wouldn't it be safe to say the "good deeds" people were Christians and the "evil deeds" people were not?



Both were resurrected and death was defeated. I'm not sure this chapter shows the required differences, but even the righteous were awaiting atonement.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2015)

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Corinthians 15:26
> The last enemy to be destroyed is death.



Yep, ain't it great that death has been destroyed and eternal life is offered?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Yep, ain't it great that death has been destroyed and eternal life is offered?



Offered or given? The following was from Edburley, a former Calvinist, a full preterist and a universalist;

One final chapter in this seemingly growing "book" is the story of Adam and Eve. Note that they were created "naked but not ashamed." God created them that way, and he said his creation was good. But when they were deceived to wanting to "know good and evil" rather than to "know God" their spiritual eyes were opened and they saw their nakedness. They were then ashamed. They hid from God, trying to separate themselves, and God found them and covered their shame. "Knowing good and evil" brings us only shame...that is SARX. Spirit gives LIFE. That is the message of the new covenant, the new heavens and new earth where righteousness dwells.

1 Cor 15 says that "the last enemy to be destroyed (or nullified) is death," meaning spiritual death (the only form of death that mattered as was pointed out by one poster here). "The sting of death is sin, and the law gives power to sin." IOW, when the old covenant "passed away" (as Hebrews says that it was about to, and that Jesus would not tarry, and he didn't), there was no more Law. And, as Paul said, where there is no law, sin is not held to anyone's account. And when there is no sin, there is no death. End of story. Christ has won. Christ is risen, he has conquered ALL of his enemies. Death is defeated and ALL humanity is reconciled to God.

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=592&start=40


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Offered or given? The following was from Edburley, a former Calvinist, a full preterist and a universalist;
> 
> One final chapter in this seemingly growing "book" is the story of Adam and Eve. Note that they were created "naked but not ashamed." God created them that way, and he said his creation was good. But when they were deceived to wanting to "know good and evil" rather than to "know God" their spiritual eyes were opened and they saw their nakedness. They were then ashamed. They hid from God, trying to separate themselves, and God found them and covered their shame. "Knowing good and evil" brings us only shame...that is SARX. Spirit gives LIFE. That is the message of the new covenant, the new heavens and new earth where righteousness dwells.
> 
> ...



That's a pretty good summary, but I do not agree with universalist because of this in Revelation 22:
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and *****mongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> That's a pretty good summary, but I do not agree with universalist because of this in Revelation 22:
> 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
> 
> 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
> ...



In relation to the sin list or the grace provided in verse 17 for whosoever will?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2015)

Besides Revelation has come and gone. Death has been defeated.

The Final Judgment
…13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

You're quoting something that's already happened. It was written about a coming event that has now passed.

After 70AD, we don't follow commandments anymore. There was no more law.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Besides Revelation has come and gone. Death has been defeated.
> 
> The Final Judgment
> …13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
> ...



But Christ does not leave the judgment seat. Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/Progressive/2007_simmons_what-death-destroyed.html


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2015)

There appears to be a whole lot of judging going on in Revelation and not much grace. Commandment keeping is often mentioned.
Judged by deeds, Even liars.
Is this because it was before 70AD and they were still living under the Old Covenant?

Revelation 14:11-12
11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Revelation 21:7
7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Revelation 20:11-12
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> There appears to be a whole lot of judging going on in Revelation and not much grace. Commandment keeping is often mentioned.
> Judged by deeds, Even liars.
> Is this because it was before 70AD and they were still living under the Old Covenant?
> 
> ...



The book is about judgment of Jerusalem. It is Johns version of the Olivet discourse, but includes the after Rev 21-22. It is the divorce of God and his bride Israel, and the marriage of the church, or the death of the old covenant and rise of the new.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> But Christ does not leave the judgment seat. Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
> 
> http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/Progressive/2007_simmons_what-death-destroyed.html



In other words the final judgement is eternal?  Is this for Christians or the people who suffer from the wages of sin?
Does judgement always equal punishment?

Getting away from Universalism, the wages of sin is death. In other words if you aren't saved, you die a spiritual death when you die a physical death. 
Through salvation one gains eternal life. Logic would assume the Judgement is over unless it is for Christians only. Why would God resurrect a dead lost person just to tell them they won't receive Everlasting life? It's like OK you are dead and back to the grave for you. Could this explain the second death?
I thought only Christians receive everlasting life.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2015)

The Final Judgement in Revelation sounds like it is a final one time event and then it was over. It almost sounds like everything was over once death was thrown in the Lake of Fire.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> In other word the final judgement is eternal?  Is this for Christians or the people who suffer from the wages of sin?
> Does judgement always equal punishment?
> 
> Getting away from Universalism, the wages of sin is death. In other words if you aren't saved, you die a spiritual death when you die a physical death.
> ...



There is no future resurrection. The death that is finished is the one that placed all souls in hades under the old covenant.. They were resurrected in the last day of the old covenant and judged..the righteous receiving life and unrighteous a second death.

 Now in the new covenant we die a physical death and face Christ immediately upon that death to receive judgment. The saved have eternal life and the unrighteous perish in a second death.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2015)

25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. 

Again from a Preterist view, this has already taken place. Christ died only once. Christ returned only once. Those who were alive and dead before Jesus came were judged. Those in Revelation were judged at the second coming. Salvation came to those in Jerusalem and to the dead saints. Death was defeated and thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Any other verses to strengthen Hebrews 9:27 and an eternal final judgement?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> The book is about judgment of Jerusalem. It is Johns version of the Olivet discourse, but includes the after Rev 21-22. It is the divorce of God and his bride Israel, and the marriage of the church, or the death of the old covenant and rise of the new.



Then why did you reference it like it pertains to us using Revelation 22 to discredit Universal salvation?
Revelation 22 was only about Jerusalem's salvation.
Didn't the resurrection of all dead happen at Jerusalem's salvation? Why did those two happen at the same time?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> There is no future resurrection. The death that is finished is the one that placed all souls in hades under the old covenant.. They were resurrected in the last day of the old covenant and judged..the righteous receiving life and unrighteous a second death.
> 
> Now in the new covenant we die a physical death and face Christ immediately upon that death to receive judgment. The saved have eternal life and the unrighteous perish in a second death.



Well that's kinda the way I see it too if we have no future judgement. I don't understand this everlasting final judgement of lost dead people. Why not let the dead bury the dead and let God resurrect the saints to everlasting life? Why would God need to wake up a dead lost soul to tell them they will be judged to the grave? 
Why doesn't the second death(spiritual) happen at the first death of lost people? Why don't they just die when they die? 
If saints resurrect to everlasting life, why do they need a final judgement?

I read where someone was saying our own death & resurrection can't be compared to that of Jesus. Many try to compare our resurrection with his but if we are going to do that why not compare our death to his death on the cross? When we die, we don't physically come out of the ground like Jesus did. We are resurrected instantly and directly to Heaven. Some believe the lost sinners are resurrected instantly and directly to the final judgement and then to the grave or He11.

I'm still confused about the Final Judgement in Revelation if it was over. You can't use Revelation to say there is a Final Judgment and then say that was for Jerusalem and then use Hebrews to say it's an everlasting Final Judgement.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
> 
> Again from a Preterist view, this has already taken place. Christ died only once. Christ returned only once. Those who were alive and dead before Jesus came were judged. Those in Revelation were judged at the second coming. Salvation came to those in Jerusalem and to the dead saints. Death was defeated and thrown into the Lake of Fire.
> 
> Any other verses to strengthen Hebrews 9:27 and an eternal final judgement?



 The alive were not judged at the parousia.
 Jerusalem was judged in Revelation, its called Babylon there.
 Have you read any of the link I provided a few post back? I think most of your questions are answered there.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm still confused about the Final Judgement in Revelation if it was over. You can't use Revelation to say there is a Final Judgment and then say that was for Jerusalem and then use Hebrews to say it's an everlasting Final Judgement.



Ok. The final judgment in Revelation was the judgment of Jerusalem...the old covenant as a corporate body....but there's also the individual judgment of us all.

 Why do the lost have to die twice? I don't know unless it is  to answer to them why..maybe.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 26, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> The saved have eternal life and the unrighteous perish in a second death.


Are you saying that the unrighteous make satisfaction for their own sins?


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## gordon 2 (Mar 26, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> In other word the final judgement is eternal?  Is this for Christians or the people who suffer from the wages of sin?
> Does judgement always equal punishment?
> 
> Getting away from Universalism, the wages of sin is death. In other words if you aren't saved, you die a spiritual death when you die a physical death.
> ...



Perhaps many individuals, non Christians, have loved God? Perhaps they have known of or seen Jesus but do not know it?

The way I understand it now is that Christians are already judged from the get go, they are no longer under a spiritual curse, and  those spiritual individuals still party to the old covenant(s) by definition must be judged according to their definitions.

Perhaps we will all be judged by our words or the words that are the genesis of our works, --our lives.


In some ways, -- perhaps many--, for man, to love is the opposite of to judge. Perhaps the tree of knowledge of good and evil is for His genius, and not ours-- as someone special once said.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> Are you saying that the unrighteous make satisfaction for their own sins?



No, I'm saying what scripture says, in that they are judged and condemned.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2015)

The alive were not judged at the parousia. Jerusalem was judged at the parousia.
How do you judge a city full of live people as a city and then later individually?
Was Jerusalem/Babylon some type of entity separate from the individuals that made up the city?


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## gemcgrew (Mar 26, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> No, I'm saying what scripture says, in that they are judged and condemned.


The ones that are condemned already?

"but he that believeth not is condemned already"


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2015)

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

"There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son.

Pulpit Commentary

Verse 18. - Salvation is the Divine result of believing on him, and salvation lifts the saved man from the necessity of the judgment, of the moral discrimination which awaits every man, and is passed upon every man by his own conscience and by the providence of God. The word κρίνω does not necessarily mean "to condemn" (see ver. 17), and whensoever the unfavourable issue of judgment is emphatically referred to, then κατακρίνω ισ used (Romans 2:1; Romans 8:3; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Matthew 27:3).

http://biblehub.com/john/3-18.htm


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## hobbs27 (Mar 27, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> The alive were not judged at the parousia. Jerusalem was judged at the parousia.
> How do you judge a city full of live people as a city and then later individually?
> Was Jerusalem/Babylon some type of entity separate from the individuals that made up the city?



Apparently you orchestrate a war angainst them and allow 1.1 million of them die a physical death, then you rain fire down on their holy temple , burn it out, then you allow the enemy to tear that down, and plow the foundation up so no one will ever know it's exact location again. They lost all genelogical records that were necessary for them to correctly carry on their religion, plus they lost the temple in which all sacrifice was to be made. 

 Then you meet each one of them and say, "depart from me I never knew you".

Jerusalem, was the Holy City in which the Temple was, it was greater significance to the Jews in those days than Mecca is to Muslims today.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2015)

Some Bible interpreters use "condemned" for "judgement."

Does judgement mean condemned? In John 3:18 couldn't one stand condemned already until he believes? In other words we are already condemned to everlasting death just by being born.
Later, one day we believe. This removes our "judgement" or "condemnation?" Both?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 27, 2015)

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.


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## welderguy (Mar 27, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
> 
> 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.



I'm so glad I have Romans8:1 to go along with those verses.
"There is therefore NOW no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit."


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## hobbs27 (Mar 27, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I'm so glad I have Romans1:1 to go along with those verses.
> "There is therefore NOW no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit."



Yes! And Revelation 2:11


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## gordon 2 (Mar 27, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I'm so glad I have Romans1:1 to go along with those verses.
> "There is therefore NOW no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit."





When I come apon this statement, I often think  that for this spirit, this new spirit in Christ, it makes the flesh something else altogether. The feet walk differently, the eyes see differently, the hands touch differently, the ears hear differently, etc... The humor gets to be more patient and the mind is tempered by humility and awe. It's almost like... well.... being born again.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I'm so glad I have Romans1:1 to go along with those verses.
> "There is therefore NOW no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit."



Did you mean 8:1?
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

No condemnation what about judgment?

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes! And Revelation 2:11



Even though Revelation was to specific people and has already happened, we don't ignore it's message?

Death, salvation, second death, judgement?

Will any part of Revelation repeat itself for us?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> The ones that are condemned already?
> 
> "but he that believeth not is condemned already"



John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Are you saying they are already condemned and can't become believers?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2015)

Hebrews 9:27
26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

If this has already happened, where is my hope? I wasn't here when Jesus appeared the second time for salvation. I wasn't here to eagerly await; alive or in the ground.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 27, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Even though Revelation was to specific people and has already happened, we don't ignore it's message?
> 
> Death, salvation, second death, judgement?
> 
> Will any part of Revelation repeat itself for us?



The letter is written to the seven churches of things which MUST soon come to pass. It also includes instruction for their present state, and immediate future for when the things would be fulfilled. That's the eschatological interpretation, but there's also a soteriological interpretation, Rev. 22 sums it up...That Ch. Is where the church was after 70 ad and always will be, and that is mentioned throughout the letter.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 27, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hebrews 9:27
> 26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
> 
> If this has already happened, where is my hope? I wasn't here when Jesus appeared the second time for salvation. I wasn't here to eagerly await; alive or in the ground.


You're reaping the benefits of this now. Notice they were at the moment ...maybe a year or so away from the consummation of the ages....Old Covenant age. Jesus was coming back to complete the atonement and announce salvation. In that Hades and death were consumed, and we now have eternal life if we take of the water of life freely....(Not to get into a back and forth about if it our taking or Christ giving before the foundation of the earth) just referring to what is said in Revelation 22.


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## welderguy (Mar 27, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Did you mean 8:1?/QUOTE]
> 
> Yes.thanks Art.I fixed it.


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## welderguy (Mar 27, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Did you mean 8:1?
> 1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
> 
> No condemnation what about judgment?
> ...



There will be a judgment for every person that has ever lived.But those whom Jesus died for will be pronounced not guilty.HALLELUIAH!!! What a Saviour!!!!


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2015)

welderguy said:


> There will be a judgment for every person that has ever lived.But those whom Jesus died for will be pronounced not guilty.HALLELUIAH!!! What a Saviour!!!!



Luke 6:37King James Version (KJV)
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.

2 Corinthians 5:10
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad”

Romans 14:10-12
But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written: ‘As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.’ So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God.

I don't see the point of a judgment if our sins don't count.
I hope you are correct. It just seems like there are a lot of verses directed towards Christians that don't pertain to Christians.

I've heard some say it's more like and awards ceremony than an actual judgment.

Romans 8:37-38
37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Grace trumps judgment?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2015)

I realize grace gives us a way out of sin. I realize we should try to live a sinless life. If every Christian feels this is true, why are we always judging people who are saved by grace but don't live up to our standards of repentance of sins? Especially as related to Paul' sin list that will keep one out of the Kingdom. Everyone has his own struggle with certain sins. Sanctification by the Holy Spirit might take a lifetime such as maybe with a drunkard. Only God knows our heart.
Even though we are told that by judging we are condemning ourselves because we are equally guilty.

Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

New Living Translation
You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things.

One says judge the other says condemn? Does judge means condemn? If we judge  a brother Christian, are we condemning him? In other words do you ever say, that man isn't a Christian. You aren't just judging him, you are also condemning him.
Then by this same process you condemn yourself.


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## welderguy (Mar 27, 2015)

We should be very careful not to judge motives.(the state of someone's heart).But we must,(also carefully) judge fruits.Not maliciously, but lovingly, even those that we consider our enemies.Who knows, we may help them out of the ditch they're in.The bible tells us "love covers a multitude of sins".
As far as the final judgment,I believe all of our sins are gonna be exposed before God in His courtroom.But Jesus, our mediator will be our advocate(lawyer), and He will stand between us and the Father and will say behold the sheep that you gave me and I have lost none.And He will say come ye blest of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2015)

welderguy said:


> We should be very careful not to judge motives.(the state of someone's heart).But we must,(also carefully) judge fruits.Not maliciously, but lovingly, even those that we consider our enemies.Who knows, we may help them out of the ditch they're in.The bible tells us "love covers a multitude of sins".
> As far as the final judgment,I believe all of our sins are gonna be exposed before God in His courtroom.But Jesus, our mediator will be our advocate(lawyer), and He will stand between us and the Father and will say behold the sheep that you gave me and I have lost none.And He will say come ye blest of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you.



I've remember reading where God would judge unbelievers and Jesus will judge Christians. It's weird if they are the same equal but separate entity.

Unbelievers have already been judged. I understand the judgements aren't about salvation.

The second judgment is that of unbelievers who will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). This judgment does not determine salvation, either. Everyone at the Great White Throne is an unbeliever who has rejected Christ in life and is therefore already doomed to the lake of fire.

Believers are judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Romans 14:10-12). Every believer will give an account of himself, and the Lord will judge the decisions he made—including those concerning issues of conscience. This judgment does not determine salvation, which is by faith alone.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/judgment.html#ixzz3VdioVBcF

Maybe the Great White Throne Judgement was for Jerusalem beings it was in Revelation.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2015)

God Appointed Jesus to Judge
God appointed Jesus as Judge of the living and dead.

    "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead" (Acts 10:42).

As our judge, Jesus also has authority to forgive sins. Everyone who believes in His name is forgiven.

    "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins" (Acts 10:43).

We Must Stand Before Jesus in Judgment
Paul tells us we must stand before the judgment seat of Christ, to be judged for our deeds.

    "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (2 Cor. 5:10).

http://www.biblestudyguide.org/articles/jesus-who-is-jesus-series/who-is-jesus-judge.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2015)

Related to death being conquered;

1 Corinthians 15:51-54:
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 

When will or did this happen? We will not all sleep. Does this mean some will stay in the grave? Why will we all be changed or if it already happened, was everyone dead raised imperishable and changed? 

Then;  "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory."
What does that mean?

I guess I need to look at that link Hobbs offered. My main questions are why was there a physical resurrection in 70 AD and we don't need a resurrection? Was every dead person good or bad resurrected? Why would unbelievers need to be physically resurrected just to return to the grave? Was it just to get Judged?
Why didn't the Cross cover Judgment, you either believe or you don't? Unbelievers are already condemned. 
I'm pretty sure this resurrection I just described was physical regardless of if it has already happened or if it is in the future.

Now for Futurists? Why would we go to Heaven or He11 at our physical death just to return for a physical resurrection? Would sinners need a body in order to burn in he11 for an eternity? Would a believer need a body to enjoy Heaven for eternity?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2015)

Romans 5:18-19
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

If Adam condemned all and Jesus justified life to all men, what did or does the "Resurrection" accomplish? What does it do in regards to salvation? How doe it affect the saved? What doe it do to the condemned? Does it have anything to do with judgment?
If it does, then how can we go to Heaven, eternal death, eternal life, or He11 before any judgement after a future resurrection?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 28, 2015)

welderguy said:


> We should be very careful not to judge motives.(the state of someone's heart).But we must,(also carefully) judge fruits.Not maliciously, but lovingly, even those that we consider our enemies.Who knows, we may help them out of the ditch they're in.The bible tells us "love covers a multitude of sins".
> As far as the final judgment,I believe all of our sins are gonna be exposed before God in His courtroom.But Jesus, our mediator will be our advocate(lawyer), and He will stand between us and the Father and will say behold the sheep that you gave me and I have lost none.And He will say come ye blest of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you.



Is this judgment with God as Judge and Jesus as our mediator(lawyer) Biblical?  What defense is there for our sins? How can Jesus be our defense? What would he say to God? 
Why is all of this necessary if we already have salvation? Is it for awards; stars in our crowns, better mansions closer to God?
Maybe Jesus will say; "Father, this one right here has been washed. He believes, send him on through."

We talk a lot about grace vs deeds then we add back into the equation accountability, judging,  and deeds.
It appears this judgment is more than a formality as some speculate.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 28, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> My main questions are why was there a physical resurrection in 70 AD and we don't need a resurrection?



Adam was placed in the garden. In the garden Adam had eternal life ( He was with God)
 When Adam took of the fruit in that day he died...( taken out of the garden..seperated from God)  It's a spiritual death. The curse of that spiritual death ran till Jesus redeemed us To eternal life. Therefore from Adam to Jesus everyone that died carried sin with them and were placed in Hades. Hades was a holding place for the dead, both the righteous and unrighteous.

When Christ completed the atonement and made a way for us to be with God, that spiritual death was done away with and Hades was emptied. That was Israel's hope as Paul called it. That event was the resurrection.

 Why would we ever be resurrected from the dead,or be referred to as the dead ones, if Christ completed what He came to do and brought eternal life?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 28, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Adam was placed in the garden. In the garden Adam had eternal life ( He was with God)
> When Adam took of the fruit in that day he died...( taken out of the garden..seperated from God)  It's a spiritual death. The curse of that spiritual death ran till Jesus redeemed us To eternal life. Therefore from Adam to Jesus everyone that died carried sin with them and were placed in Hades. Hades was a holding place for the dead, both the righteous and unrighteous.
> 
> When Christ completed the atonement and made a way for us to be with God, that spiritual death was done away with and Hades was emptied. That was Israel's hope as Paul called it. That event was the resurrection.
> ...



Were the ones in Hades just spirits/souls and resurrected as such? If there is no more death(spiritual) as Jesus brought eternal life, why doesn't everyone after Jesus, who brought eternal life, receive it? What happens to them when they die a physical death? How can they die a spiritual death if Jesus Christ completed what he came to do?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 28, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Related to death being conquered;
> 
> 1 Corinthians 15:51-54:
> 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
> ...





Artfuldodger said:


> Were the ones in Hades just spirits/souls and resurrected as such? If there is no more death(spiritual) as Jesus brought eternal life, why doesn't everyone after Jesus, who brought eternal life, receive it? What happens to them when they die a physical death? How can they die a spiritual death if Jesus Christ completed what he came to do?



Yes. Jesus is the only one promised to resurrect in the flesh.

Only those that enter into covenant with Jesus have eternal life, but it's here .

Adam was cursed because he broke covenant with God.
 Jerusalem was destroyed because it broke covenant with God.

 Only those in Covenant ( saved folks) have eternal life, and this covenant we are in reigns forever and Jesus has washed us of sin so that we may be presented to the Father, others will be departed for He never knew them.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 29, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Were the ones in Hades just spirits/souls and resurrected as such? If there is no more death(spiritual) as Jesus brought eternal life, why doesn't everyone after Jesus, who brought eternal life, receive it? What happens to them when they die a physical death? How can they die a spiritual death if Jesus Christ completed what he came to do?



How many questions have you asked in this thread, AD?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 29, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> How many questions have you asked in this thread, AD?



More than answers. I'm trying to remove my futurist indoctrination and explore the Preterism beliefs without prejudice. 
You ever realize how hard it is to accomplish something like this?
In doing so I've opened up some questions on judging. It appears that if death was thrown in the Lake of Fire at 70 AD and Jesus brought salvation then from that point on all would be saved. I'm not the only one who has seen this part of Preterism. We have Universal Preterists just as we have Universal Primitive Baptists.
Most of my questions center around these verses;

Hebrews 9:27
26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Hobbs says this 2nd appearance in relation to 70Ad only brought atonement for salvation. God didn't actually come to save anyone at this time, he actually destroyed. Jesus did this from Heaven, his 2nd coming was a proxy visit. 
God destroyed by using the Roman Army. No stone was left unturned.
Due to this Atonement, salvation at that time allowed the souls/spirits of the dead to got through  their individual spiritual resurrections and on to their individual judgement days. This was the resurrection of the dead in prophesy.

Hebrews 9:28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

No live Christians were  brought home at the parousia. The only salvation was atonement. The "eager" await was for atonement. The only saints brought home at the second coming of Jesus were dead saints due to this proxy visit for atonement. No live person will go to Heaven. Only the spirits of dead saints can go to Heaven. This is where we are after the second coming in 70AD. From this point on no live person will go to Heaven. At the second coming in 70AD no live saints went to Heaven. Hebrews 9:27 tells us "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once."
Jesus died before he went to Heaven. His Mother died before she went to Heaven. Were they both judged?

Futurist say Jesus must wait for all of the elect to come to him  before the second coming. Why?
It appears to be working under the Preterist view. People are being saved every day.

This is my view of Preterism and might not be just as Hobbs believe. I apologize if I'm too far off base.

I can't really say this is any more confusing than the futurist view.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 29, 2015)

Hello, my name is Art and I'm a Futurist. I've lived my whole life in hope that Jesus will one day return and take us all home. I remember this song we'd sing; We'll work till Jesus comes and then we'll be gathered home."
This future second coming was a major part my religion. It gave me great hope and joy to be reunited with Jesus. Even if I was dead before he returned, I would come out of the grave to meet him.
I can remember as a small kid picturing myself coming out of the ground and on up into the sky to meet Jesus. 
I read verses such as this;
Mark 13:26-27
26"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Now when I got older they taught me it wouldn't be quite the pretty picture that was painted to me in my youth. Jesus not only came to save, he also came to destroy. He came to Judge. Terrible things would happen, there will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth. The moon would turn red. It was described to me like a nuclear war that would slowly kill and destroy all except his sheep. His sheep still alive wouldn't die a physical death.

The good news in all of this was that at some point in all of this chaos, Jesus will separate all of his sheep from the goats. The sheep will finally have the salvation they'd hoped about. Finally they'd receive the salvation God promised. This separation would come in the form of a Judgement Day which will be a one day event for everyone. Then the earth will be totally destroyed or at least replaced with as a New Heaven or New Jerusalem. We would then live either in this New Heaven or the original Heaven in God's Kingdom. Jesus will then turn this Kingdom over to his Father and take his place at his Father's right hand.

Now this all made perfect sense to me until I learned about a hundred different scenarios as people tried to justify scripture with my story of the second coming. 
Things  like to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord. I heard  preachers at funerals saying the deceased is now home with Jesus. I'm thinking, wait a minute, Jesus hasn't returned to get them yet. Well maybe they are in Abraham's Bosom awaiting the second coming.
But what about the "Great Judgement Day?" How did they get past that? Each of us has his own individual "Judgement Day."
I was also told we are in God's Kingdom already. But I remember something about Jesus needing to come back to set up this Kingdom. How do you explain that? Well we have various types of Kingdoms.God's Kingdom, Jesus' Kingdom, thy kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven. We have different stages of the Kingdom's development.
Finally and this is the most confusing part of the Futurist doctrine.
Why are we eagerly awaiting the second coming of Jesus? What do we need if for? What will it accomplish?
Why come back to earth for a resurrection & judgement of any sorts if I'm already in Heaven or He11? If I've already been judged. If the sheep have already been separated. What will be different after the second coming that we can't have now other than no more salvation being offered?
Why have I lived my lifetime eagerly waiting on Jesus to return when all I have to do is die a physical death and and my soul/spirit resurrects to Heaven?
I can assure you once I get there, I won't want to leave. Especially to come back for a body. Not even a spiritual body.

I can't really say this is any more confusing than the preterist view.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 29, 2015)

Didn't the Cross take care of Judgement? Didn't the Cross or 2nd coming take care of atonement? Hasn't death been defeated?
What can possibly be left?

Christ's atonement has passed. The Resurrection has passed.
If at the resurrection, all sin will end, the judgment (or sentence upon humans) will end, punishment (the he11 on earth) will end, and death (the ultimate punishment for Adamic sin) will
end. Will the elect then be saved through the work of Christ?

If all of this has already happened, then how can there not be Universal salvation from 70AD forward?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 29, 2015)

The sheep and goats were actually separated before creation. God has already written each in his books. 
Why does he need a future Judgement Day? I would think a wake up in Heaven or He11 would answer that question.
Why would a mediator be needed for the final decision has already been answered?

If salvation is based on Grace and not of works. If works are the result of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. What could I possibly be judge for?
Does Heaven have a ranking system? My fruit was the result of the Holy Spirit. My salvation was form Grace. Give my award to God and his Holy Spirit.
Heaven will be my reward.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 29, 2015)

1 Thessalonians 1:10
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

What coming wrath must I wait on Jesus for if I'm dead in the ground? If I'm already in Heaven?

This does appear to be about Jerusalem. I can see it. I'm a Partial Preterists. Aren't all Christians Partial Preterists? Don't we all believe God destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD?

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 29, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Thessalonians 1:10
> and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
> 
> What coming wrath must I wait on Jesus for if I'm dead in the ground? If I'm already in Heaven?
> ...



 Art here's some questions and concerns that my friend Charles Meek went through. He's a really good man.

A DOZEN REASONS WHY I BECAME A PRETERIST

by Charles S. Meek

Kicking and screaming, gnarling and scratching, I became convinced that the preterist view of eschatology is the correct one. Here’s why.

1. I could no longer ignore, in good conscience, the over 100 time statements in the New Testament that demand fulfillment of the last days events within the lifetimes of the New Testament writers.

2. I became convinced that the completion of all eleven mentions of the “last days” or “end times” in the New Testament could not be placed beyond the first century.

3. I realized that I was ignorant about what happened in Jerusalem in AD 70 and the theological significance of these events.

4. I was shocked to discover that Jesus, as well as his disciples, stated that all OLD TESTAMENT prophecy would be competed in their literal generation—that is, the first century.

5. I realized that if Jesus and his disciples were wrong about the timing of fulfillment of the prophetic events, the charges against Christianity about Jesus being a false prophet would be true. The preterist view is the only one that answers the critics’ charges. So I am now convinced that Jesus kept his word. (No need to make excuses for Him.)

6. I had heard Christians argue that language such as “moon turning to blood,” “coming on clouds,” “make the heavens tremble,” etc. should be understood literally. I was always skeptical about literalizing these phrases, and my closer investigation revealed that my skepticism was warranted. Such phrases are typical non-literal Hebraic apocalyptic language to describe God’s intervention (usually judgment) on groups of people in history.

7. I recognized that the Bible teachers I had been listening to could not answer my serious questions about prophecy.

8. I realized that, in spite of what may appear obvious, the Bible never speaks about the end of the physical universe or planet earth. (Really, it doesn’t.)

9. I noticed that Christians tend to interpret the Bible through the lens of the daily news events—and have accordingly been making false and embarrassing predictions about the end of the world for 2,000 years. If they would be reading through the lens of the original audience instead, they would get a different picture.

10. I learned that over 60 competent scholars have been identified as teaching that Revelation was written prior to AD 70.

11. I discovered that there are over 30 passages in Revelation that (a) demand fulfillment soon after being written down, and (b) Revelation does not introduce new concepts but connect the events of Revelation with the same ones mentioned elsewhere in the Bible.

12. I noticed that objections to preterism are shallow, disjointed, biased, arbitrary, and inconsistent. Objectors are willfully blind about key passages and mostly regurgitate things they have heard from people who have not really studied the issue either.

If you were like me, you have an initial knee jerk reaction to the above. Please don’t take my word for it. Do the homework this important topic deserves. I back up everything from Scripture at my websites and my book CHRISTIAN HOPE THROUGH FULFILLED PROPHECY (available at Amazon). Feel free to email me at faithfacts@msn.com. For more info, see my websites:

https://prophecyquestions.wordpress.com

http://www.faithfacts.org/world-reli…/the-biblical-last-days 
https://www.facebook.com/EvangelicalPreterism


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks, Hobbs. Would you care to explain #5 a little more?

Why did most Christians get it wrong or when did the correct teaching go wrong? At some point in your eyes it became crystal clear. I'm seeing it slowly happen in my eyes. It's kinda scary.
I'm afraid I might become a Universal Preterist.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 29, 2015)

28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. 

I'm struggling with this verse. Christ appearing a second time for salvation. Was this appearance for "atonement?"

Without reverence to sin, to those who eagerly await him. 
Why were people eagerly awaiting his return?

Like I said about Futurists, why would they eagerly await the return of Christ? Just die and you'll go on to be with him.

How did Christ save the saints that were in or near Jerusalem? They were warned weren't they? Maybe this was the salvation they were eagerly awaiting or at least a part of it.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 29, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks, Hobbs. Would you care to explain #5 a little more?
> 
> Why did most Christians get it wrong or when did the correct teaching go wrong? At some point in your eyes it became crystal clear. I'm seeing it slowly happen in my eyes. It's kinda scary.
> I'm afraid I might become a Universal Preterist.



Art, #5 is concerning skeptics of Christianity. Atheist, Jews, Muslims, etc. attacking Christianity on the merit of an absent 2nd return even though Christ own words were that He would return, quickly, soon, within the generation of the people He spoke with. The Preterist view is the only one that stays true to Jesus time statements.
 Preterism is an atheist worst nightmare in debate because it places the events in the past and we do have historical records outside of the church, such as Josephus accounts of the destruction of the temple.


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## welderguy (Mar 29, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes. Jesus is the only one promised to resurrect in the flesh./QUOTE]
> 
> According to Job 19:26-27, we will see God with our own eyes after our death.To me, this can only mean that our literal bodies will be raised from the graves and changed into a glorified, incorruptible body that is able to look at God.
> 
> "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shalI I see God:whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."


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## hobbs27 (Mar 29, 2015)

welderguy said:


> hobbs27 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes. Jesus is the only one promised to resurrect in the flesh./QUOTE]
> ...


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 30, 2015)

welderguy said:


> hobbs27 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes. Jesus is the only one promised to resurrect in the flesh./QUOTE]
> ...


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 30, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> welderguy said:
> 
> 
> > Look at this in Job carefully:
> ...


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 30, 2015)

Hobbs, how do you believe we will see God and Jesus in Heaven?
I don't mean visibly with eyes but spiritually? Will we see God and Jesus?
Even if the throne scenario isn't literal, will we spiritually see both God and Jesus?
Will we feel the presence of two entities? Realizing that Jesus was both man and God?
Realizing that Jesus ascended spiritually back to Heaven. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Was the man part of Jesus going back to Heaven or was this his first trip?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 30, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> hobbs27 said:
> 
> 
> > I understand the concept of this being the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD but if God blinded the Jews to fulfill his mission, why the punishment?
> ...


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## hobbs27 (Mar 30, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, how do you believe we will see God and Jesus in Heaven?
> I don't mean visibly with eyes but spiritually? Will we see God and Jesus?
> Even if the throne scenario isn't literal, will we spiritually see both God and Jesus?
> Will we feel the presence of two entities? Realizing that Jesus was both man and God?
> ...



I honestly don't know, but I have a strong desire to be there.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 30, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> welderguy said:
> 
> 
> > Will you be able to "see" God after death or after your resurrection?  Why go to Heaven at death if you can't enjoy it without a body? If you can't see God until you return for a body?
> ...


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## hobbs27 (Mar 30, 2015)

Maybe this will help:

When discussing the coming of Christ  at the time of the resurrection and judgment,  the focus of Thessalonians, Paul said that Christ would no longer be known after the flesh. This is categorically rebuttal of the concept that the coming of Christ must be bodily and fleshly.
   We should mention here, that just prior to his passion, Jesus said, " A little while, and the world will see me no more, But you will see me; because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in the Father, and you in me, and I in you... Judah ( not Iscariot) said to him, Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not the world? Jesus answered and said to him: If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come make our home with him."
    The significance of this passage is greatly overlooked. Jesus said the world would not see him anymore! Judah wanted to know how it was that the world would not see him, but that he would be manifested to them. Jesus said he would be "seen" by those who live by faith and obedience. Both the Father and the Son would manifest themselves in the heart and life of the believer in an unending fellowship with them! (John 14: 22-23 is a direct commentary on John 14:1-6.) What we need to see is that resurrection and the parousia is all about relationship. (Cf. 1 Thessalonians 5:10).


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## welderguy (Mar 30, 2015)

The raising of Lazerus was indisputably literal.Martha made the statement that she knew Jesus would raise him up at the last day,and it doesn't sound to me like Jesus was refuting that statement but confirming it.                23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world


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## hobbs27 (Mar 30, 2015)

welderguy said:


> The raising of Lazerus was indisputably literal.Martha made the statement that she knew Jesus would raise him up at the last day,and it doesn't sound to me like Jesus was refuting that statement but confirming it.                23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
> 
> 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
> 
> ...



Amen. Raised literally yet not physically from Hades at the last day of the old covenant.


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## welderguy (Mar 30, 2015)

Phil.3:20-21 tells us our citizenship is in heaven.It also tells us that our bodies will be changed into a glorious body like Jesus' glorified body.  20 "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21" Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."   Then,if we look at Luke24:39,we see that Jesus' resurrected body was flesh and bones. 39"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."


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## hobbs27 (Mar 30, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Phil.3:20-21 tells us our citizenship is in heaven.It also tells us that our bodies will be changed into a glorious body like Jesus' glorified body.  20 "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
> 
> 21" Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."   Then,if we look at Luke24:39,we see that Jesus' resurrected body was flesh and bones. 39"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."



I'm really enjoying this and appreciate your input. To help you better understand what I'm saying I'll post this with the link which is full of spiritual goodies and see if you have any biblical dispute with it. Thanks

The reason there are differences in the way we are raised and the way in which Christ was raised is because of those Biblically defined differences between Christ's body and ours. Differences such as: 

1.Christ is the only one who is both fully God and fully Man -- God incarnate (John 1:1-18). 
2.Christ is the only one who was virgin born (Matthew 1:23, Luke 1:27). 
3.Christ is the only one who ever lived a sinless life (Hebrews 4:15). 
4.Christ is the only one promised that his flesh would not suffer decay (Acts 2:27,31). 
5.Jesus never committed sin and never became corrupted (Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:22-24).
 Because of this, He could keep His selfsame body, whereas, we cannot. 
Unless Jesus' body had been resurrected, His disciples would have had no assurance that His soul had been to Hades and had been resurrected. The physical resurrection of Christ was essential to verify the spiritual, to which it was tied. While the physical resurrection of our bodies would have no point, since we will not continue living on this planet, breathing earth's oxygen, and eating earth's food after we die physically. 


http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/dead.html


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 30, 2015)

Before someone else asks. Won't we need our bodies for the rapture regardless of if we are dead or alive?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17                                                                  16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

   17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If the resurrection was in 70AD and dead spirits  were called first, what about the live people being caught up in the clouds to be with Jesus forever?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 30, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Phil.3:20-21 tells us our citizenship is in heaven.It also tells us that our bodies will be changed into a glorious body like Jesus' glorified body.  20 "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
> 
> 21" Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."   Then,if we look at Luke24:39,we see that Jesus' resurrected body was flesh and bones. 39"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."



Is this what you believe?
The traditional view that is held by most of the Church is this: When a believer dies, their body goes into the grave and their spirit goes to heaven to be with the Lord. They are in a disembodied state awaiting the resurrection at the end of time. Then at the end of time the Lord returns, resurrects all the decayed bodies of the dead saints, puts them back together, then changes the physically resurrected bodies into spiritual immortal bodies like Christ's.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

If we are absent from the body, are we with the Lord?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 30, 2015)

If Heaven is just a space full of disembodied spirits, I'm a little disappointed by that possibility. I mean if that is what it is I still want it, I'm sure it will be great to be with God. God is a spirit and he likes it OK. He doesn't need a body to see, hear, and enjoy life. He still has emotions and feelings.
I've always imagined a New Heaven and New Earth with God living among us. If Jesus is now God incarnated perhaps Jesus would live among us. I always thought I'd have a spiritual body.(key word-body) 
Randy Alcorn whom I got my ideas of Heaven from said; Paul didn't say  “It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spirit” 
He included the word "body."
Perhaps returning the earth to the land God always intended it to be. 
I always envisioned a beautiful city with gates of pearls and streets of gold, music, gardens, fountains, rivers, etc. Now I could assume we could still enjoy all of that as spirits since God enjoys all of that. I guess God enjoys stuff like that. Unless he made all of that for humans to enjoy. Maybe all of that type of stuff is beyond his need for enjoyment. 
But then again maybe if the end of time is in the future, God can retire. He won't need to keep a eye on everything after time. He could just destroy the whole universe and retire, living among his children as  kindred spirits or in the New Heaven as an incarnated human. With no more sinners, no more wrath, judging, and other Godly duties.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 30, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Before someone else asks. Won't we need our bodies for the rapture regardless of if we are dead or alive?
> 
> 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17                                                                  16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
> 
> ...



We wont need this flesh for a false doctrine of rapture.  

Here's some parallels to that very verse.

1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 30, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> If Heaven is just a space full of disembodied spirits, I'm a little disappointed by that possibility. I mean if that is what it is I still want it, I'm sure it will be great to be with God. God is a spirit and he likes it OK. He doesn't need a body to see, hear, and enjoy life. He still has emotions and feelings.
> I've always imagined a New Heaven and New Earth with God living among us. If Jesus is now God incarnated perhaps Jesus would live among us. I always thought I'd have a spiritual body.(key word-body)
> Randy Alcorn whom I got my ideas of Heaven from said; Paul didn't say  “It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spirit”
> He included the word "body."
> ...



I guess your body doesn't have all the aches and pains mine has. Im glad I'll receive a glorified body and shed this ole flesh when I go to be with the Lord.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 30, 2015)

If the resurrection was in 70AD and dead spirits were called first, what about the live people being caught up in the clouds to be with Jesus forever?


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## welderguy (Mar 30, 2015)

Brother Hobbs,
I read the link you posted and there's alot of good in it.But, to me, a few things don't seem to line up.He states that Jesus has a different resurrection than we do because He was sinless.He was sinless in the fact He never committed any sin, but He took our sins upon Himself and actually became sin for us.
Also,I didn't see where he addressed Job 19:26-27 either.How that Job, even after the worms destroy his body, will be able to see God with his own eyes.That text is key to the whole thing in my opinion.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 30, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> If the resurrection was in 70AD and dead spirits were called first, what about the live people being caught up in the clouds to be with Jesus forever?



They were saved, and as we are when we are saved ( caught up in God's glory) we are with Jesus forever.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 30, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Brother Hobbs,
> I read the link you posted and there's alot of good in it.But, to me, a few things don't seem to line up.He states that Jesus has a different resurrection than we do because He was sinless.He was sinless in the fact He never committed any sin, but He took our sins upon Himself and actually became sin for us.
> Also,I didn't see where he addressed Job 19:26-27 either.How that Job, even after the worms destroy his body, will be able to see God with his own eyes.That text is key to the whole thing in my opinion.



Job said he would see God , but not be raised in his body, to the contrary he said his body would be eaten by worms.

The reason things don't line up for you is your pressupositions of being taught something different. That's natural, but what does the bible say? That's what is most important. IMO.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 30, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> They were saved, and as we are when we are saved ( caught up in God's glory) we are with Jesus forever.



They were already saved before the 2nd coming. Unless you are attributing it to the atonement provided by the return of Jesus.

But the scripture says the dead in Christ are called first, then
the living shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to be with Jesus forever. "Together" they become one group.

This doesn't distinguish one group from the other at this point. They are caught up together. Hardly seems like it is saying  for the dead to go be directly with Christ and you living go back down and be with Christ indirectly.

What is it that separates us from the unity dead people have with Jesus? We are both in the Kingdom. We are both spiritual. Does anything change in my relationship with Jesus when I die a physical death? Does my spirit change? Do I finally become like Jesus? Will I feel the same spiritually then as I do now just without a body?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 30, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Job said he would see God , but not be raised in his body, to the contrary he said his body would be eaten by worms.
> 
> The reason things don't line up for you is your pressupositions of being taught something different. That's natural, but what does the bible say? That's what is most important. IMO.



yet in my flesh I will see God;

yet in my body I will see God!

clothed in my flesh I will see God,

Then without my flesh shall I see God;


Hey, one out of about 20 interpretations is different.


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## welderguy (Mar 30, 2015)

"Flesh" to me means flesh(our literal body).
I honestly don't see how that could be interpreted to mean spirit.
If he meant that he would see God with spiritual eyes in a spiritual body, why use the word "flesh" at all in the statement? 
I'm not trying to be contrary but this is a very important detail of the gospel.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2015)

welderguy said:


> "Flesh" to me means flesh(our literal body).
> I honestly don't see how that could be interpreted to mean spirit.
> If he meant that he would see God with spiritual eyes in a spiritual body, why use the word "flesh" at all in the statement?
> I'm not trying to be contrary but this is a very important detail of the gospel.



Or why did Paul say spiritual "body?" Why not raised a "spirit?" But then again why did Paul distinguish between "body" and "spiritual body?" Why didn't he say we are raised a glorious body or a renewed body? Do we have other scripture that describes our resurrection in a body?
If we must return to a body what was the point of leaving it? What makes us different at our death/resurrection than we were before? We must be different or we wouldn't die. We must become something new or different. If we are reborn when we receive salvation and are in the Kingdom, why do we need to die even once if we need a body? If our new life is spiritual then our body/flesh is just a hindrance. We look forward to shed it. We look forward to becoming just a spirit. What makes us different or what changes at our physical death if we are already reborn? 

Where does our spirit go when we die before it comes back for it's spiritual body? I think this is important as why we need this body. Does the spirit go to an intermediate Heaven? (Abraham's Bosom)
Does the soul sleep in the grave?

I think it might matter where we spend eternity as to whether we are spirits or spiritual bodies. If in Heaven then we might be spirits, if in a New Heaven & Earth then we might be in spiritual bodies.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 31, 2015)

Art, I'll get back to your questions in a little while, but I need to work something out myself. One of the reasons I enjoy this forum is that it keeps me in the Book. So now I have a question for you and/or welderguy.
 What do you make of Ephesians 4:8?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, I'll get back to your questions in a little while, but I need to work something out myself. One of the reasons I enjoy this forum is that it keeps me in the Book. So now I have a question for you and/or welderguy.
> What do you make of Ephesians 4:8?



The host of captives were the Old Testament saints. But then were they taken at the ascension of Jesus or his resurrection or neither?
Could it be the dead in Christ didn't go to heaven until the Resurrection in 70AD?
I'm confused?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 31, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> The host of captives were the Old Testament saints. But then were they taken at the ascension of Jesus or his resurrection or neither?
> Could it be the dead in Christ didn't go to heaven until the Resurrection in 70AD?
> I'm confused?



Thank you! I was hoping you would see that too. This verse demands that the dead in Hades were ascended at His ascension.

Now look at 1 Thessalonians 4. Does it not sound as if He is returning with them to bring us all in under one body?

The Thessalonians were worried about the ones in Christ that had died before Jesus return , that's the whole point of this letter, to comfort them that they would be raised first and they would be joined with Jesus forever.

The resurrection therefore must have been spiritual, because no one saw the saints ascend with Christ. There's lot more to this but I'll stop there for now.


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## hawglips (Mar 31, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 5:28-29
> "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
> 
> Can I assume "those who committed the evil deeds" are the same as "lost sinners?"
> They Bible often uses "sinners" to mean "lost sinners" so I'm assuming this is what this is about.



Verse 24 and 25 are interesting to help put things in context:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

I think Matthew 25:31-46 sheds a lot of light on you question.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


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## welderguy (Mar 31, 2015)

Jesus' resurrected body had both physical and spiritual characteristics about it,which,I believe is the example or pattern of the way all the saints will be also.Remember when the disciples were in the upper chamber with the door locked and Jesus just appeared in their midst?He didn't come in by the door.That was His spiritual characteristic.But then He told Thomas to feel the print of the nails in His hands and thrust his hand in His side.And on the seashore He and His disciples ate fish that He was cooking over the coals.These were physical characteristics of His resurrected body.1 Cor.15:23 says  "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." This verse leads me to believe Jesus was the pattern and we will follow that pattern in our resurrection as well.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 31, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Jesus' resurrected body had both physical and spiritual characteristics about it,which,I believe is the example or pattern of the way all the saints will be also.Remember when the disciples were in the upper chamber with the door locked and Jesus just appeared in their midst?He didn't come in by the door.That was His spiritual characteristic.But then He told Thomas to feel the print of the nails in His hands and thrust his hand in His side.And on the seashore He and His disciples ate fish that He was cooking over the coals.These were physical characteristics of His resurrected body.It's something to think about.



I have no problem with the example of Jesus being physical and spiritual. He was seen ascending, but the captives he led with him at the ascension were not.
 How do you explain that?


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## welderguy (Mar 31, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I have no problem with the example of Jesus being physical and spiritual. He was seen ascending, but the captives he led with him at the ascension were not.
> How do you explain that?



If you are referring to Eph.4:8, I am not understanding how you get that there were souls being ascended.I think, by looking at the whole context of the chapter, "led captivity captive" is simply referring to setting His children at liberty( here on earth) and then bestowing the various gifts that edify the body of Christ(His church), again here on earth.Some apostles, and some prophets,some evangelists, some pastors and teachers etc.If I'm off please don't hesitate to show me in more detail how you arrive at your conclusion.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 31, 2015)

welderguy said:


> If you are referring to Eph.4:8, I am not understanding how you get that there were souls being ascended.I think, by looking at the whole context of the chapter, "led captivity captive" is simply referring to setting His children at liberty( here on earth) and then bestowing the various gifts that edify the body of Christ(His church), again here on earth.Some apostles, and some prophets,some evangelists, some pastors and teachers etc.If I'm off please don't hesitate to show me in more detail how you arrive at your conclusion.



18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

I believe the captivity in Ephesians and the prison mentioned here in 1peter 3 was hades. It certainly contained spirits that were in need of the Gospel & Jesus preached to them.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 31, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Brother Hobbs,
> I read the link you posted and there's alot of good in it.But, to me, a few things don't seem to line up.He states that Jesus has a different resurrection than we do because He was sinless.He was sinless in the fact He never committed any sin, but He took our sins upon Himself and actually became sin for us.
> Also,I didn't see where he addressed Job 19:26-27 either.How that Job, even after the worms destroy his body, will be able to see God with his own eyes.That text is key to the whole thing in my opinion.




 Just an interesting point or two I would like to make about these verses. One, it seems to be very difficult to translate to the English language as their are many different ways its interpreted. Most do have Job in the flesh, some have him out of the flesh. I certainly wouldn't want to rest any doctrine on this verse alone.

Two Just an interesting side note farther into Job we read that in whatever form He may have been Job did see God with his eyes while yet alive.

Job 42:5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You;


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## welderguy (Mar 31, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Just an interesting point or two I would like to make about these verses. One, it seems to be very difficult to translate to the English language as their are many different ways its interpreted. Most do have Job in the flesh, some have him out of the flesh. I certainly wouldn't want to rest any doctrine on this verse alone.
> 
> Two Just an interesting side note farther into Job we read that in whatever form He may have been Job did see God with his eyes while yet alive.
> 
> Job 42:5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You;



Both valid points.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2015)

hawglips said:


> Verse 24 and 25 are interesting to help put things in context:
> 
> "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
> 
> ...



Why the many verses granting Christians everlasting life with no condemnation followed by ; when you didn't do all of this helping to the poor, prisoners, sick, naked, etc. you didn't help me? Followed by these people going to everlasting punishment but the righteous to eternal life?
What happened to the "no condemnation?"

1 Thessalonians 4:6
6and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before.
7For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
8Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Another example of doing bad things to humans is the same as doing them to God. By doing so is to reject God.

Many of Paul's letters are like this. You are saved but if you do this and this you can't enter the Kingdom.


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## welderguy (Apr 1, 2015)

Romans 8:23 supports a bodily resurrection. The last part says "the redemption of our body."


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## hobbs27 (Apr 1, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Romans 8:23 supports a bodily resurrection. The last part says "the redemption of our body."



Interesting. I read the "body" in this text as the "church" body. It seems to me the language is plural as in a group of people. They are awaiting the judgment on Israel.

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Romans 8:23 supports a bodily resurrection. The last part says "the redemption of our body."



Good morning, you never addressed my question regarding; where do we go when we die a physical death to await our physical death. Where does our souls rest until our resurrection?

And if you care to answer; will we see Jesus and God in Heaven? Jesus in his human body he ascended in and God who is a spirit? Seeing could be with or spirits ability as Job saw God while he was alive. 
If know man can see God or God's face, maybe a spirit can see God. 
If we go in a human body, maybe we can only see God as Jesus. Maybe Jesus has become God.

One more set of questions; what changes about us when we die a physical death? What exactly does this death allow us to become? We must all die once. If live people are called up to Heaven, what do we do with our flesh & blood? Must they be changed into flesh and bones?

These questions go out to anyone interested in responding.


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## welderguy (Apr 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Good morning, you never addressed my question regarding; where do we go when we die a physical death to await our physical death. Where does our souls rest until our resurrection?
> 
> And if you care to answer; will we see Jesus and God in Heaven? Jesus in his human body he ascended in and God who is a spirit? Seeing could be with or spirits ability as Job saw God while he was alive.
> If know man can see God or God's face, maybe a spirit can see God.
> ...



Art, first of all I'm not ignoring you.Working nightshift makes things difficult.
I don't have all the answers to these mysteries as Paul described it.My belief is that the spirit of the child of God when he dies goes straight to paradise where Jesus is.We know this from Jesus' words to the thief on the cross.The body goes back to dust from where it began.
I believe the non-elect's spirit goes to a place that is separated from the prescence of Jesus.Some people call this place hades.I don't find that word in my bible, but that's irrelevant.The non-elect's body goes back to dust also.
Someday, Jesus is going to return to earth with a shout and the sound of the trumpet.He will cleave the skies and every eye shall behold Him.Some will still be alive when this takes place.He will call the dead in Christ from the four corners of the earth and they will be changed in a twinkling of the eye(be glorified).Then those that are alive will ascend and be changed also and meet them in the air.The bodies of the non-elect will be brought up last.I believe there will then be a literal judgement before the throne of God.He will say to the sheep on the right hand "Come, inherit the kingdom prepared for you before the foundation of the world"
But to the goats on the left hand, He will say "depart from me into everlasting torment"
And He said He would destroy the earth.He will fold it up like a vesture and the elements will melt with a fervent heat.


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## hawglips (Apr 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why the many verses granting Christians everlasting life with no condemnation followed by ; when you didn't do all of this helping to the poor, prisoners, sick, naked, etc. you didn't help me? Followed by these people going to everlasting punishment but the righteous to eternal life?
> What happened to the "no condemnation?"



The "no condemnation" part was qualified.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2015)

hawglips said:


> The "no condemnation" part was qualified.



Please explain, I'm not following you.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Art, first of all I'm not ignoring you.Working nightshift makes things difficult.
> I don't have all the answers to these mysteries as Paul described it.My belief is that the spirit of the child of God when he dies goes straight to paradise where Jesus is.We know this from Jesus' words to the thief on the cross.The body goes back to dust from where it began.
> I believe the non-elect's spirit goes to a place that is separated from the prescence of Jesus.Some people call this place hades.I don't find that word in my bible, but that's irrelevant.The non-elect's body goes back to dust also.
> Someday, Jesus is going to return to earth with a shout and the sound of the trumpet.He will cleave the skies and every eye shall behold Him.Some will still be alive when this takes place.He will call the dead in Christ from the four corners of the earth and they will be changed in a twinkling of the eye(be glorified).Then those that are alive will ascend and be changed also and meet them in the air.The bodies of the non-elect will be brought up last.I believe there will then be a literal judgement before the throne of God.He will say to the sheep on the right hand "Come, inherit the kingdom prepared for you before the foundation of the world"
> ...



Thanks, that's a general Christian understanding although you forgot to mention about the souls coming back with Jesus to reenter their bodies. 

One thing different about your interpretation is the non-elect don't go directly to He11 as some Christians believe. I guess they need the Judgement first but before the Judgement, the non-elect souls in Hades will be rejoined with their bodies. I wonder how the bodies of the non-elect will be brought up? They won't be glorified like the elect bodies.

The dead elect being that they are elect can go directly to Heaven without a Judgement. They will return for their Glorified bodies. The alive elect will then be called up and changed into their glorified bodies. I've always wondered what change they go through during their ascension. 

I've really never understood why the elect needed to take part in the Judgement as they have already been elected. Unless they also went to an intermediate waiting place like the non-elect to await Judgement.

The intermediate waiting places would explain the wait for the Judgement. It would also explain the wait for bodies. Waiting for bodies that would be needed to enjoy eternity in Heaven or everlasting torment in He11. I'd think you gonna need a body for that. Well either place I guess.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 2, 2015)

Just a little more on the Job verse. I got this written by: Tom Riggle

Job's Resurrection Verse
 What does Job actually "know" here?
 It is different from what many today say He knows.

"For I know that my redeemer lives, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:"
 Job 19:25-26

This is the version often quoted. But already we have an unfortunate problem. This rendition has several problems. Mainly, for my purpose here, two problems:

1. There are no "worms". The King James Version added that in their attempt to be helpful.

2. More importantly, the "see[ing] God" does not come "in" the flesh, but "from" the flesh. In other words, Job is not voicing a confidence that he will, in some future time, have a fleshly body with which he will see God. He is saying that even after his body will be destroyed he will still - afterward - see God. The destruction of his body will have no bearing on his assurance of seeing God. And this interpretation I didn't get from my fellow Preterists. I knew about it long before. Consider these mainline sources:

"And after my skin, thus torn to pieces,
 And without my flesh shall I behold Eloah,"

"Therefore by far the majority of modern expositors have decided that Job does not indeed here avow the hope of the resurrection, but the hope of a future spiritual beholding of God, and therefore of a future life;" - Keil & Deilitsch

“After they shall have destroyed my skin, this shall happen - that I will see God.” - Gesenius

"The literal meaning is, “from, or out of, my flesh shall I see God.” It does not mean in his flesh, which would have been expressed by the preposition ב (b) - but there is the notion that from or out of his flesh he would see him;"

It cannot be proved that this refers to the resurrection of that body, and indeed the natural interpretation is against it.
 - Barnes

"And after this skin of mine is destroyed I will yet, without flesh, see God." - Luther (translated from the German)

Both of these points I went in greater detail because they help do away with core objections against the Preterist understanding of both human nature and of the resurrection.

Our blessed hope does not include eternal life in physical bodies, however glorified. We will have perfect spiritual existence,individual and corporate. This is neither (as I have been accused) gnosticism or Eastern pantheistic oversoul existence. It is plainly what the Bible teaches. To get to the proof of this - and it admittedly is a slow and painstaking process - one must first deal with each and every passage that seems to teach otherwise. These two verses in Job are prime candidates, seeing that they are often quoted to teach what they pointedly do not teach.

Just for the record. Preterists like myself...
 do believe in Christ's literal death on the cross,
 do believe in his literal and bodily resurrection,
 and that he presented a literal body as proof to his disciples,
 also that He rose again in a literal body.

I often run into this misunderstanding concerning what Preterists believe and needed to set this straight. To deny those points is to be beyond the pale of orthodoxy. Scripture provides abundant proof for all of these.

One thing that Scripture does not teach is that Christ will return physically. Of course, I believe that He had already returned (but that has been covered in other articles). The issue here is how He appeared.

He has/had no need to return in a physical body. Consider this: The reason why Jesus went through the whole spectrum of physical experience - incarnation, perfect life, suffering, death on the cross, resurrection, ascension - was so that He would "fulfill all righteousness". All the bases have been touched (if I am allowed to use a mere baseball metaphor for this awesome doctrine).

There is no similar requirements concerning His coming again, or concerning His judgment. Likewise there is no similar requirement that we live on forever in limited physical bodies. The only reason that it seems to be a requirement - and a cardinal doctrine to boot - is because of all that tradition we have inherited over the centuries, not the Bible.
 As always, however, we need to always distinguish between what Scripture teaches and what tradition has taught us that Scripture teaches.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 2, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Art, first of all I'm not ignoring you.Working nightshift makes things difficult.
> I don't have all the answers to these mysteries as Paul described it.My belief is that the spirit of the child of God when he dies goes straight to paradise where Jesus is.We know this from Jesus' words to the thief on the cross.



Jesus did indeed go to paradise, but he rose from there and later ascended to the Father.
 Paradise aka Abrahams bosom was located in hades. Hades sometimes misinterpreted as he11 was a holding place for the souls before Christ came back to preach to those prisoners and lead the captivity captive.   http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/paradise/





welderguy said:


> The body goes back to dust from where it began.


 Yep!



welderguy said:


> I believe the non-elect's spirit goes to a place that is separated from the prescence of Jesus.


  That would be the judgment seat of Christ. From there they are thrown into the lake of fire and consumed.




welderguy said:


> Someday, Jesus is going to return to earth with a shout and the sound of the trumpet.He will cleave the skies and every eye shall behold Him.Some will still be alive when this takes place.He will call the dead in Christ from the four corners of the earth and they will be changed in a twinkling of the eye(be glorified).Then those that are alive will ascend and be changed also and meet them in the air.The bodies of the non-elect will be brought up last.I believe there will then be a literal judgement before the throne of God.He will say to the sheep on the right hand "Come, inherit the kingdom prepared for you before the foundation of the world"
> But to the goats on the left hand, He will say "depart from me into everlasting torment"
> And He said He would destroy the earth.He will fold it up like a vesture and the elements will melt with a fervent heat.



 No where does it say in the bible that the earth will be destroyed, on the contrary it say's " World without end, Amen! 
 Let me share a different scenario if I may.


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## welderguy (Apr 2, 2015)

I know that these issues are important,but I also know the resurrection as it pertains to our bodies is a mystery, according to Paul.So I conclude since it's a mystery, it's not all going to be revealed to us plainly."We see through a glass darkly".But no matter how it takes place, I can surely say it will be glorious!

The resurrection of Jesus is the most important to know and it's been revealed plainly to those with faith.His resurrection was the Father's manifested approval of Jesus' atonement .


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## hobbs27 (Apr 2, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I know that these issues are important,but I also know the resurrection as it pertains to our bodies is a mystery, according to Paul.So I conclude since it's a mystery, it's not all going to be revealed to us plainly."We see through a glass darkly".But no matter how it takes place, I can surely say it will be glorious!
> 
> The resurrection of Jesus is the most important to know and it's been revealed plainly to those with faith.His resurrection was the Father's manifested approval of Jesus' atonement .



But Paul explained the resurrection well, where did he say it was a mystery that we should not know?


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## welderguy (Apr 2, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> But Paul explained the resurrection well, where did he say it was a mystery that we should not know?



The mystery Paul speaks of in1Cor.15:51-52 is what I was referring to.
Another place Paul is "mystified" is when he was caught up to paradise and he says "whether in the body or out of the body I know not".It amazes me how God would reveal things to him that are "unlawful for him to utter" but yet didn't reveal to him if he were in the bodily form or spiritual form.Makes me wonder if God is pleased not to reveal fully what state we will be in.Maybe a combination of the two as was Jesus' resurrected body was.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 2, 2015)

welderguy said:


> The mystery Paul speaks of in1Cor.15:51-52 is what I was referring to.
> Another place Paul is "mystified" is when he was caught up to paradise and he says "whether in the body or out of the body I know not".It amazes me how God would reveal things to him that are "unlawful for him to utter" but yet didn't reveal to him if he were in the bodily form or spiritual form.Makes me wonder if God is pleased not to reveal fully what state we will be in.Maybe a combination of the two as was Jesus' resurrected body was.



1Corinthians 15 isn't Paul hiding a mystery but sharing it. When I read this it makes perfect sense.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.             ._The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom here and now, our flesh does not inherit it but our spirit._

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,                   ._ Some of us "them" will physically die "sleep" before Christ returns but not all of us "them" some of us "them" will live till Christ returns to bring salvation and re-marry Israel which is no longer a physical land, but one people under one baptism, jew and gentile alike._

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.                     ._ Same as above but the part about the living being changed is the fact that they will be saved_

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.                        ._ Salvation again...washed..and the flesh that is mortal is born again spiritually with eternal life_

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.                . _Death was the last enemy_

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.                                     .  _The law is no more. death is no more For Christ brought salvation_

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.                    . _Thank you Jesus_


 So the resurrection mystery is about the consummation of the law and the inauguration of grace...see its the dead in the law being brought to life in Christ, and indeed the dead ones were raised and brought together with us and the old testament saints to meet Jesus and we are now altogether in one body of the new covenant.

 I can understand if you have trouble believing that, I did too until I try to disprove it.


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