# Smallmouth bass in the Chattahoochee



## BasserDrew (Mar 11, 2009)

Guys, I am not sure if anyone over here has posted anything about this or not but I put it up on GRF and NGTO to let people know that there are indeed smallmouth bass in the Hooch in ATL, living amongst the shoal bass, trout, stripers and everything else.  If you fish the Hooch in ATL you might find this video interesting.  It is on my site but I think I can embed it right here without pulling people out of GON.  Let me try...wow, it works, nice forum. 

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## striper commander (Mar 11, 2009)

Pretty fish.


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## vin-man (Mar 11, 2009)

Caught a smallie several years ago above Morgan Falls Dam that went about 2lbs. on a jig and minnow. About a month later, my fishing partner caught one about the same size on the same bait. Both fish were released. Those are the only two I had ever heard of before seeing this video.


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## little rascal (Mar 11, 2009)

*that looks*

just like a West Virginia "New River" Smallie!!
I thought about once upon a time, bringing some New River Smallies home and releasing them in Etowah, but I never did. Why that would be illegal now wouldn't it, to transport a species from one watershed to another.
Congrat's on the Smally.
How do ya'll think Yellow Bass would do on the Hooch in Franklin!
Wonder how Kentucky's got in Allatoona? How about Blueback Herrring in Lanier? 
People got tired of the the no-biting, diminishing Largemouth population, that's how!
Don't forget all the aquariam species that got dumped, ever seen the story about a small gator, or the couple cases of a pirahana or two.
Yep, you got it, illegally transported fish!!


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## BasserDrew (Mar 12, 2009)

I'm kinda shocked that more people didn't seem to respond to this because it is actually a big deal affecting a stretch of river all the way to West Point lake.  This is genetically changing a fishery FOREVER.  You can't undo this by killing every fish in the Hooch and starting over.  Its done, just like spots in Lanier is done.  

I just hope that somehow the two species don't have the ability to hybridize and can just live amongst each other but the odds of that are slim to none because one will likely outcompete the other in some way.  Whether it has to do with the time one species spawns over the other and their fry eating the fry of the others or whatever.  One fish will probably emerge the victor since these two species use the exact same habitat.  I have a feeling they will hybridize and now we just need to come up with a name for a cross between a smallmouth and a shoal bass because I think that's what we'll be catching there.  A cross between a spot and smallie is a meanmouth.


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## Mr. Fishunt (Mar 12, 2009)

*Smallmouth...*

Drew,
Based on the fact that you believe the smallmouth to be an invasive species, is it your intent and recommendation to release or keep them?

Mr. Fishunt


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## striper commander (Mar 12, 2009)

What do you call a cross between a largmouth and a spot. I have been catching a lot of them lately.


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## Twenty five ought six (Mar 13, 2009)

> Drew,
> Based on the fact that you believe the smallmouth to be an invasive species, is it your intent and recommendation to release or keep them?
> 
> Mr. Fishunt



I'm not sure that smallmouths are an invasive species, or if they are they've been here long enough to be "naturalized".

There used to be a Baptist Camp on the Chatahoochee that I attended regularly and often, and there was a core of fisherman that would fish for small mouths.  I saw several of them myself, they were clearly not largemouths, and the fact that they were catching them out of the shoals (which we were not allowed to go into) emphasized that fact.  That would have been 45 years ago or so.  Lake Lanier was not even full.


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## Cletus T. (Mar 13, 2009)

I like that name you just said Drew…..a Meanmouth……that’s pretty catchy!

Fishing on the river is just good clean fun too…..it’s a whole different experience than lake / pond basin……I like what you do!

Keep up the good work!


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## Randy (Mar 13, 2009)

Mr. Fishunt said:


> Drew,
> Based on the fact that you believe the smallmouth to be an invasive species, is it your intent and recommendation to release or keep them?
> 
> Mr. Fishunt



I imagine Drew will agree with me when I say this..........any smallmouth or spot caught in the chattahoochee river basin, the flint river basin or the ocmulgee river basin should not be released.  Studies are ongoing but we expect that hybridization of these species with the shoal bass is not good for the ecosystem.


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## BasserDrew (Mar 13, 2009)

Pirate, I mostly agree with you but just recommend doing what you would like with the fish because honestly it isn't going to help much even if we do keep all we catch - but maybe doing a little is better than nothing I suppose so we might as well keep them.  The damage is done, those weird genes are in the river system and unless we somehow caught every one then we're stuck with it.  Besides spotted bass are in there too so we have all sorts of non-native fish in there.  Its a mutt fishery now.  Just like big cities are filled with people from all over world, the Hooch in the city is filled with fish from all over as well.  Kind of ironic!  



> I'm not sure that smallmouths are an invasive species, or if they are they've been here long enough to be "naturalized".



25 o/ 6, Smallies in this case are an invasive species because they are not native to that river drainage at all.  At least that is my definition of invasive (a fish that is not native to that range).  



> There used to be a Baptist Camp on the Chatahoochee that I attended regularly and often, and there was a core of fisherman that would fish for small mouths. I saw several of them myself, they were clearly not largemouths, and the fact that they were catching them out of the shoals (which we were not allowed to go into) emphasized that fact. That would have been 45 years ago or so. Lake Lanier was not even full.



The fish they were catching in the shoals then were shoal bass.  They are native to that system and once upon a time before we built Lanier, West Point, Harding, Goat Rock, Oliver, Eufaula, Seminole, Chehaw and Blackshear etc. those fish were KINGS of that system and ruled the shoals.  Then, we (unknowingly I'll admit) destroyed their prime water by building Lanier and turning the water for many miles below it into a coldwater fishery, which lessened their range even more.  Ga unknowingly had (and still does but to a lesser extent) arguably the greatest freshwater sportfish swimming around in thousands of miles of rivers.  This is the only place you can catch this fish in the world!  And, of course we wiped out half of their range.  Makes me sick, but again we didn't know and of course would have made lakes anyway for water and power but I am sure things would have been done differently had we known these fish were a seperate and distinct species and such a tremendous sport fish.  We probably would have changed the location of those lakes to bury as few mega shoal complexes as possible and if possible could have kept the water flowing out of the dams a warm-water fishery because shoal bass are more aggressive and fight harder than trout anyway (no offense to trout but its true).    



> What do you call a cross between a largmouth and a spot. I have been catching a lot of them lately.



300 Mag, those are not too common.  Where are you catching them?  Any pictures?  Ocassionally I'll catch a largemouth that has a tooth patch but I am not sure that really means it crossed with a spot - its probably just a random thing that happens sometimes.  

Thanks Cletus.  Meanmouth is a cool name but I sure didn't come up with it. I am not sure who did but it is what they call the cross between spots and smallies. 

Put a new video up showing a nice shoal bass if anyone wants to check it out on my site.  You can clearly see the difference between one of those and the smallmouth.  

http://drewgregory.com/go/archives/2283


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## GA Biologist (Mar 13, 2009)

> Ocassionally I'll catch a largemouth that has a tooth patch but I am not sure that really means it crossed with a spot - its probably just a random thing that happens sometimes.



Drew, you're popping up everywhere man...lol.  You're right about the tooth patch.  A tooth patch patch does not necessarily in itself indicate a spotted bass or a spotted bass cross.  There is a small percentage of largemouth bass that get tooth patches.  In fact, we have seen quite a few in the Flint below Lake Blackshear.  To determine if it is a spotted bass or hybrid you have to also look at other characteristics including jaw length, dorsal fins, etc.  In short you need to look at the whole picture and not just a piece.


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## Old Dead River (Mar 13, 2009)

how did the smallmouth get into the hooch?


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## Bruiser (Mar 13, 2009)

Old Dead River said:


> how did the smallmouth get into the hooch?



That's the million dollar question. No one knows, but we can speculate that someone illegally introduced smallies into the Hooch.

DNR was not involved and it should be the only entity introducing or stocking fish in our waterways.


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## LanierSpots (Mar 14, 2009)

Mr. Fishunt said:


> Drew,
> Based on the fact that you believe the smallmouth to be an invasive species, is it your intent and recommendation to release or keep them?
> 
> Mr. Fishunt



You could fish everyday and keep every fish everyone ever caught and you cant remove them from the fishery.  

Think of it this way.  IF Jackson Lake got spots in it by someoene putting a few in it and now there are millions, what possible good would it do to keep have a million of them?  The next spawning year. . . .  There would be a million again.

Tough break on this one Drew.  I agree, any fish that is not native is invasive.  At times its a good thing and at times it is not.  The problem is, it always changes things.  Good or bad


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## striper commander (Mar 14, 2009)

I caught them at west point, and one at neely henry. There head looks like a spot and the body looks like a largemouth. It is not just a largemouth with a tooth patch.


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## Son (Mar 14, 2009)

*Smallmouth?*

In the 80's, I lived near a fellow who caught smallmouth bass in a creek that flows into the Chattahoochee River. Here's what you will find hard to believe. It was below Lake West Point. I don't think he would appreciate me giving anymore info than that. 
They were true smallmouth with some going in the four to five pound range. He attributed it to the creek being colder than most in the area, and with deep rock bottom holes.
Another note about the fellow. He was the fish catchingest person I've ever seen on the Hooch, bar none. He showed me places to catch spots over five pounds, hybrids up to 13 pounds and bluegills on lures you wouldn't believe. That was back in the 1980's. Wonder where Ol David is these days?


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## shortround1 (Mar 14, 2009)

yep, from time to time you run across a smallie, ive taken several on up the river.


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## Twenty five ought six (Mar 14, 2009)

I'm sorry, but I can't accept that smallmouth are an "invasive species."  I know what I saw, and the fish that were being taken out of the Chattahoochee did not have the look of Shoal Bass, or the body shape.

They are native to the Tennessee River drainage, and so it's entirely possible that they are "native" to the Chattahoochee or Chestatee Drainage.

I may be a little cynical but I've had too many biologists tell me that there were no redeye/Bartram's bass in the upper Oconee.  I've had them tell me that there are no yellow perch in the lower Altamaha, although all the bream fisherman catch them there regularly.  In fact, even today if you look at maps of the range of yellow perch, the lower Altamaha is not shown.

The same biologists pronounced the Robust Redhorse extinct in the Oconee River.


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## BasserDrew (Mar 15, 2009)

If Smallmouth were native to the drainage they would be all throughout it, not just randomly show up in ATL one day out of the blue or where you saw them caught many years ago.  They would be spread all throughout the river system all the way down to the ocean and in between all the lakes we built - and in the lakes.  They are a strong and aggressive species and can live in various habitats, including impoundments - which shoal bass cannot live in.  So, even if shoal bass somehow outcompeted them into virtual extinction in the rivers (which is 99.9% unlikely in 45 years throughout an entire river drainage) they should still be in the lakes, but they are not.  This should help us deduce that they are not native in that system, along with the DNR records for hundreds of years that also prove it.  Could there have been some in there, sure, someone could have moved some back then, but it doesn't mean they are native.  

And, really it doesn't matter either way IMO.  We know they are in there now all of the sudden and the question is, what in the world is going to happen between the shoal bass and smallmouth?  If they hybridize then we'll have a serious issue on our hands.


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## Twenty five ought six (Mar 15, 2009)

> This should help us deduce that they are not native in that system, along with the DNR records for hundreds of years that also prove it.



Hundreds  of years????

How many "HUNDREDS?

Would those be the same records that showed the Robust Redhorse sucker as extinct for over ONE hundred years.   Well, we know those were wrong.

Contrary to what you state, the smallmouth bass does not compete very well with other members of the black bass family.  Although native to the Tennessee River drainage, it has become virtually absent from the Georgia lakes in that drainage, due primarily to competition from the spotted bass.

Speaking of relying on DNR records, the shoal bass was not even recognized as a separate species until 1999, so if we are going to rely on those records, the shoal bass did not exist in the first 200 years of the state's existence.

Likewise, the existence or not of the Bartram bass is matter of debate right now.  One of the curiosities of the Bartrams bass is that it seems to exist in isolated patches in drainages that are unconnected.  If the Bartram bass can exist in those circumstances, then so can the small mouth.

To assert that the smallmouth can exist in all parts of the Chattahoochee from Helen to Apalachicola demonstrates an unfamiliarity with  its habitats requirements.  By that reasoning, the shoal bass would be found above Lake Lanier and Lake Allatona, and to my the best of my knowledge that's not the case.


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## BasserDrew (Mar 16, 2009)

I changed my mind, you're right about all this.  Good debate, have a good one.


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## Hunter for life (Mar 16, 2009)

In my opinion, pound for pound, Smallies are one of the best freshwater fighting fish there are.  I never knew we had them down here.


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## rspringer (Mar 16, 2009)

I been shoalie fishing the hooche for a couple of years now and have caught a "bunch" of "different" looking fish.  Not looking to promising.  

Pretty sure the video is filmed in one of my favorite places to catch them on top water actually.


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## Old Dead River (Mar 16, 2009)

yeah the smallmouth couldn't survive in the warmer reaches of the chattahoochee, no way. i've always thought that if not for the dominance of the spots in lanier that lanier would be cool enough for them, and especially the section of the chatt below buford dam. at least we've got the shoalies though, which is very similar to the smallie both morphologically and in terms of fighting ability.

i've caught smallmouth and spots, i'm eager to catch a shoal bass. perhaps it will happen this year.

are they in all parts of the flint or just exclusive to in and around the shoals?

p.s. i'll be a pickwick sometime this summer so perhaps i can bag a good size smallmouth


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## BasserDrew (Mar 17, 2009)

> yeah the smallmouth couldn't survive in the warmer reaches of the chattahoochee, no way.



ODR, this is a very common misconception about smallmouth - that they need cold water.  This is not true about the fish.  They simply need oxygen and the food to maintain their hyper metabolism in the warmer water.  The Broad River in SC is slap full of smallmouth all the way down to Columbia, which is just an hour and a half away from the ocean!  You can catch smallmouth right next to palm trees!  The water gets in the mid and upper 80s in the summer.  Most people typically think smallies need cooler water because they are native to waters north of us, which are typically cooler.  This just happens to be (for whatever reason) where God put them, but they can withstand very very warm water and THRIVE in it if the conditions are right.  

This is why they will probably do well in the Chattahoochee because even though the water gets warm in the summer there is adequate oxygen and food in that fishery.

I believe they tried to put them in the Chatooga (which is cold) and even some other rivers in the mountains because they thought they needed the cold water but for some reason the smallies never took????  Well, that was because mountain rivers are the least fertile and have lower number of nutrients so what they lacked was the food source.  There wouldn't be any real sport fish in the N. Ga mountain streams if the DNR didn't stock trout because they are rivers that run off of rock, which doesn't provide the nutrients that a river system needs to have some serious life in it.  

The way the smallies got in the Broad River in SC was because the DNR actually stocked them in Kings Creek, a cold tributary to the river, back in the 80s.  They thought, like most do, that smallies had to have the cold water.  Well, to their surprise the fish swam out of the creek and down into the very very warm river and started thriving.  The food source was not up in that little creek so they sought it out downstream and populated the river up and down and are there to stay forever now. 

Anyway, hope this helps some and I'm sure you'll get that shoal bass this year and I hope you get a good'n!  The shoalies will be near the swifter current, but that doesn't necessarily mean shoals.  They are in the shoals for sure but don't overlook other areas of swift current with submerged boulders.  They also thrive in the lower Flint where there are not many true shoals.  It also depends on the time of year because they do move quite a bit and utilize different areas of the river at different times.


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## ronmac13 (Mar 17, 2009)

Hunter for life said:


> In my opinion, pound for pound, Smallies are one of the best freshwater fighting fish there are.  I never knew we had them down here.



i agree with you, I love catching them on a little ultra light rod.


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## West1938 (Mar 17, 2009)

Randy said:


> I imagine Drew will agree with me when I say this..........any smallmouth or spot caught in the chattahoochee river basin, the flint river basin or the ocmulgee river basin should not be released.  Studies are ongoing but we expect that hybridization of these species with the shoal bass is not good for the ecosystem.


If the various bass are thriving and being caught and released or even eaten, why is it necessary to have some government group "do studies"?
I'd wager that another different group could do studies and find results completely opposite from the first group.
Can't we just leave those bass alone and enjoy them?


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## Hunter for life (Mar 17, 2009)

*Smallies*

Can't we just leave those bass alone and enjoy them?[/QUOTE]

DITTO


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## Twenty five ought six (Mar 17, 2009)

> Studies are ongoing but we expect that hybridization of these species with the shoal bass is not good for the ecosystem.



I don't really care all that much about what bass is doing what to who, but I have to note that according to Drew's own definition, the shoal bass is an "invasive species" in the Oconee/Ocmulgee Rivers 





> 25 o/ 6, "Smallies in this case are an invasive species  because they are not native to that river drainage at all. At least that is my definition of invasive (a fish that is not native to that range)", post #11).



What standard do we use to prefer one invasive species over the other? Both the shoal and small mouth bass are native to Georgia, so that criteria is out.  Why should we not release smallmouth or spots, but release shoal bass in those drainages?


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## BasserDrew (Mar 17, 2009)

> but I have to note that according to Drew's own definition, the shoal bass is an "invasive species" in the Oconee/Ocmulgee Rivers



Yes, that is correct they are an invasive, or "alien" species to the Ocmulgee.  I am not sure why you seem to think that I think they are not.  They most certainly are invasive in the Ocmulgee watershed.  It doesn't matter how much we like or do not like a fish (I love smallmouth), if they are not supposed to be there they are an invasive species.  This is not about anyone liking or not liking smallmouth, its just about the fact that they are in there now.  Some people just like to know what they are catching and targeting.  

Trout are an alien species to the Hooch as well, so are spots.  The only difference with trout is that they will never go beyond their temperature range and are easier to control, plus they are smart use of a man-made coldwater fishery and provide great opportunities for people in ATL.  This is why the DNR stocks them.  Striped bass and hybrids are also easy for the DNR to control and even remove if they see a reason for them to be taken out and that is why they are in numerous rivers and lakes.  All they ever have to do is stop stocking them since hybrids can't reproduce and striped bass need a very long section of river for their eggs to float in to reproduce successfully.  I think they need over 100 river miles to have a shot and their eggs take a couple days to float down the river and hatch.  We don't have that type of length here so I doubt much, if any natural reproduction of striped bass on lake West Point is happening.  Maybe some striped bass expert can chime in and let us know.  

This thread is simply to let folks know that we have discovered and proven that smallmouth are in the Hooch.  To many people who enjoy smallmouth this is probably exciting, but to those who know what a shoal bass is, how rare it is and all the efforts the GA DNR did to get them in that fishery again it is sort of a sad day.  Shoal bass naturally were only in one river watershed (ACF).  Compare that to how widespread smallmouth are in lakes and rivers across the US and it is just a shame that the smallies may end up causing the shoal bass to lose more of their, already small, range.  Good news is it may take a while.  Bad news is that now that smallies are in the Hooch, it will be easier for people to move them to the Flint and everywhere else.  This is how invasive species get further away from their native watershed and deeper into non-native places and can cause other species to become extinct.  Of course if the DNR started stocking pure shoalies again that could combat it some but you can't just overload a fishery with a ton of a certain predator because then you have an unnatural balance and could lose a lot of the prey, which again starts affecting everything, possibly even up to us in certain circumstances.  However, this is why I am sure the DNR will begin researching this.  They are working with our tax dollars to make the fisheries as good as possible so that, as many on here have stated, we can just catch the fish and enjoy them.

My friend who was fishing with me and is a fisheries biologist called the DNR folks who are over the Hooch in that area to let them know what we have discovered and all they said was "All BLEEP."  If they were a native fish to that system and are supposed to be there then I highly doubt that would have been their response.  Today most state DNR's are putting an emphasis on not introducing species that should not be there because it messes up the entire ecosystem and can actually affect everything above and below the water!  That means us!  It is a long process to explain, but you can learn more about it on this movie made by a Japanese ecologist.  http://www.riverwebs.org/

Once an invasive species does take over, regardless of how it got there, the states may choose to manage it for the benefit of the anglers (making lemonade out of lemons).  The did so with the Ocmulgee shoal bass and the SC DNR is doing so with the smallmouth that they now have - they stock them in certain areas and follow their growth and impact on the ecosystem.  It is only the responsible thing to do, to manage what you have or have been dealt with.  Sometimes we luck out and an invasive species provides a fishery with a sporty gamefish and sometimes we realize we have big problems on our hands as evidenced by the asian snakeheads showing up in the Virginia and the northeast.  I don't think smallies will do much of anything except possibly mess up the genetic integrity of the shoal bass.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 17, 2009)

BasserDrew said:


> Yes, that is correct they are an invasive, or "alien" species to the Ocmulgee.  I am not sure why you seem to think that I think they are not.  They most certainly are invasive in the Ocmulgee watershed.  It doesn't matter how much we like or do not like a fish (I love smallmouth), if they are not supposed to be there they are an invasive species.  This is not about anyone liking or not liking smallmouth, its just about the fact that they are in there now.  Some people just like to know what they are catching and targeting.
> 
> Trout are an alien species to the Hooch as well, so are spots.  The only difference with trout is that they will never go beyond their temperature range and are easier to control, plus they are smart use of a man-made coldwater fishery and provide great opportunities for people in ATL.  This is why the DNR stocks them.  Striped bass and hybrids are also easy for the DNR to control and even remove if they see a reason for them to be taken out and that is why they are in numerous rivers and lakes.  All they ever have to do is stop stocking them since hybrids can't reproduce and striped bass need a very long section of river for their eggs to float in to reproduce successfully.  I think they need over 100 river miles to have a shot and their eggs take a couple days to float down the river and hatch.  We don't have that type of length here so I doubt much, if any natural reproduction of striped bass on lake West Point is happening.  Maybe some striped bass expert can chime in and let us know.
> 
> ...



Good post Drew. Shoot as messed up as we have the hooch already I want to see Smallies stocked there. I mean a viable smallmouth fishery THAT close to ATL would be a huge economic boom to the fishing industry. People will travel for smallies like nothing else.

And you are right the trout die at a certain temp the smallies don't. Look at E. Tenn. The Holstein and Watuaga rivers. MAN there is smallmouth in there like nothing else! I'd love to see them in the hooch good.

Nice catch man. Hey when we going back to the broad!!!


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## Randy (Mar 17, 2009)

You guys just have to forgive Drew and myself for wanting to protect the shoal bass.  Besides that IMO, pound for pound they are the hardest fighting bass I know of, they are also fairly rare.  While smallmouth live in waters all over and in other states, the shoal bass is pretty much limited to Georgia.  Yes they are found in a few tribs in Alabama and north Florida but the best and majority of them are found in Georgia.  As such some of us are very protective of this species.  While studies are on-going, there is a lot of information that indicates the spots and smallies can not only hybridize with shoalies but also compete for forage and even some evidence that the fry of spots are large enough to eat the fry of shoalies after the shoalies spawn.

Our concern is that the smallies and spots will either out compete the shoalies or hybridize with the and at some point we loose the shoal bass species.  Now maybe this is OK with some of you.  Spots and smallies are certainly fun to catch.  But so are shoalies.  And since spots are in just about every lake we have and since smallies are in some lakes and even in other parts of the US, we would just like to see the rivers left to the shoalies since that is the only place they can live.

Wouldn't it be nice to have all three of the species to chase rather than loose one?  The point is we can have all three if we manage them right.  But if spots and smallies take over our rivers, we are subject to lose the shoal bass either through hybridization or competition.  I kind of like the idea of having all three.

Now Drew and I may be overly concerned, but the studies presently going on indicate we have reason to be concerned.  I believe Drew's original post was intended to express his concern and to shed some light on the possibility of losing this species to another species which has been introduced to these rivers that can cause a problem.

And yes shoalies were introduced into some of our rivers.  However, studies have not shown that they have affected the original inhabitants of those rivers.  So while they may be invasive they are not destructive.  Studies indicate that this is not the case with spots and smallies.


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## Gordon (Mar 18, 2009)

ronmac13 said:


> i agree with you, I love catching them on a little ultra light rod.



Carp!


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## FishingAddict (Mar 18, 2009)

BasserDrew said:


> I changed my mind, you're right about all this.  Good debate, have a good one.



Do I sense sarcasim, Drew? 

Arguing with Drew about rivers is like arguing with the Pope with Catholicism.    You may think you know more than he does, but ya probably don't. The man helps teach the DNR about shoal bass.


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## Old Dead River (Mar 19, 2009)

ok but why are the smallmouth endemic to cooler waters in the first place? if they were as suited for warmer waters as you put it then why aren't they naturally distributed in those waters. Why aren't they as pervasive as largemouth?They aren't. Darwin has more to do with that than god. Is it coincidental that they are only native to the northern most portions of southeastern states and that as you head south they cease to appear?? You said it yourself they were given a helping hand in the broad in sc via that creek stocking. They're also in the Tenn Tom waterway even a bit below baysprings which is quite warm (mississippi). But beyond bay springs they drop off to nil. Why is that? The nurtients are there? It's not their preferable habitat. 


Despite what you say, I think it's pretty well established that a smallmouth is a cool water fish. If thay weren't the case they'd be in sinclair, okechobee, etc etc. If you introduced smallmouth into a central georgian reservoir chock full of nutrients and forage they would not do well. They are not physiologically tailored for that type of environment. They prefer cooler, running water with rocky bottoms. One river in SC where they departed a cool creek for forage doesn't undermine the reasoning behind their natural distribution.


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## FishingAddict (Mar 19, 2009)

Old Dead River said:


> ok but why are the smallmouth endemic to cooler waters in the first place? if they were as suited for warmer waters as you put it then why aren't they naturally distributed in those waters. Why aren't they as pervasive as largemouth?They aren't. Darwin has more to do with that than god. Is it coincidental that they are only native to the northern most portions of southeastern states and that as you head south they cease to appear?? You said it yourself they were given a helping hand in the broad in sc via that creek stocking. They're also in the Tenn Tom waterway even a bit below baysprings which is quite warm (mississippi). But beyond bay springs they drop off to nil. Why is that? The nurtients are there? It's not their preferable habitat.
> 
> 
> Despite what you say, I think it's pretty well established that a smallmouth is a cool water fish. If thay weren't the case they'd be in sinclair, okechobee, etc etc. If you introduced smallmouth into a central georgian reservoir chock full of nutrients and forage they would not do well. They are not physiologically tailored for that type of environment. They prefer cooler, running water with rocky bottoms. One river in SC where they departed a cool creek for forage doesn't undermine the reasoning behind their natural distribution.




As Drew stated, it is more to do with O2 content of the water than actual tempature. 

Warm water can hold less O2 than cold water.  

But if you have a river that has plenty of O2 because of waterfalls and such, but is still warm, it can hold small mouth...like the rivers in SC, which are plenty warm, but have plenty of rapids that increase the O2 of the water.

As I understand it, anyhow.

I would not be suprised if shoal bass, native to only Georgia rivers, are an offshoot of smallmouth from a loooong time ago.


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## Old Dead River (Mar 19, 2009)

FishingAddict said:


> As Drew stated, it is more to do with O2 content of the water than actual tempature.
> 
> Warm water can hold less O2 than cold water.
> 
> ...



stands to reason, they look similar/fight similar


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## Triton Mike (Mar 19, 2009)

Question for Drew and Randy....

There have been limited studies that show Spots will irridate Smallmouth and Largemouth over time case in point Lanier, Allatoona, West Point etc etc.  What is the consensus if any on Spots vs Shoalies?  Shoalies vs Smallmouth?  I don't know why I think this but I think a river/creek setting the rules would change some in terms of the two co existing..  

Also,  Any Shoalies in the upper Etowah extremeties?  I'm guilty I should be spending more time on the riverfishing forum you guys have .  Great forum for the creekers.  I miss my small river/creek fishing a good bit. 

Mike


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## BasserDrew (Mar 19, 2009)

Fishing Addict, that's what I would have stated as well.  Well reasoned.  There is a reason the mudfish becomes king below the fall line because of the stagnant water and lower oxygen levels.  Also, largemouth continue to do well because they are the most diverse bass there is and can live in extreme cold and warmth and on lower oxygen levels.

ODR and FA, you would think that shoalies might be decendents from smallmouth, but in reality they are genetically closest to spotted bass.  I think they get their smallmouthyness (i'm gonna stick with that non-word ) from actually thriving in the similar habitat and situations that smallmouth do.  It is no coincidence that they took on the similar color characteristics as smallies and sort of evolved into this aggressive hard fighting fish such as smallies because they both are like minded and similar in where they hang out in a river - they just happened to be seperated by drainage for reasons that we can probably never fully understand.  

Its like, why is the guadalupe bass only in those few rivers in TX?  Why is the suwanee bass only in that one system in FL?  There are hundreds and thousands of species that can live just fine and thrive even in other areas that they are not naturally found in.  The largemouth is a perfect example - it thrives everywhere but is not native everywhere and is probably the most transplanted fish on the planet now residing in most all continents and even islands surrounding them.  They are considered a nuisance in Japan now.  I wish I had some concrete answers for why certain species are only in certain places when they clearly could thrive in many other areas.  

Mike, spotted bass do outcompete largemouth, especially in a piscivorous (fish eatering) world.  Reason being is that spots are chasers and their bodies are leaner and they are built for speed, which is good for chasing down other fish.  Largemouth would much rather hang out and sit still in a blowdown and wait for their meal to swim by and ambush it.  Do they adapt and still chase bait fish out in the middle of lake lanier?  Sure, but spots are better at it than they are because they are mostly piscivorous, which means they love to just eat other fish when they can.  The introduction of the blue back herring only tilted the fishery further in the spotted bass' direction on Lanier and this is why you see the decline in LM, especially in this drought because largemouth just don't have a lot of structure in that lake to utilize their ambush technique which they are best suited for.  If the water was consitently up in the trees in that lake then LM would do better but it never is and I can't remember the last time it was covering those shallows that the LM like.  

In a river or creek, Mike, the rules change some because often times because spots cannot just go around eating as many fish as they please because there may not be as many fish.  They have to forage some for insects and crayfish occasionally.  Still, they rule in the slower "lake" sections where bream and other panfish hang out and do push the LM out just like they did on lake Lanier.  In the shoals they have a hard time competing with smallies or shoal bass for food, but they can boot them out in another way - hybridization.  Of course we still don't know with this Chattahoochee situation if smallmouth and shoalies can hybridize but I imagine they can.  Spotted bass are very adaptive to almost any environment and can spawn extremely successful in most any environment and they can hybridize with almost anything that has fins...lol...and this is what makes them dangerous.  Although the fact that the Hooch above Lanier still has plenty of shoalies is a good sign because the spots have been there for a while now.  Maybe the spots in the Ocmulgee or Flint won't hurt the shoalie fisheries too much since they don't seem to be spawning together often.  Although, I am not with the DNR and don't have any facts on this stuff but we've certainly seen an increase in spotted bass, a decrease in LM and the shoalies are holding steady.  If I had to guess I'd say the LM are in more danger than the shoalies.  I sure hope so.

All good questions Mike and your final one is about shoalies in the Etowah.  No, they are not native there.  I fished that area quite a bit and caught some nice redeyes and spotted bass though but never a shoalie.


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## Old Dead River (Mar 19, 2009)

interesting. i read where the shoalie was more related to the spot than the smallie. is the shoalie as much of a "chaser" as the spot?

now a mudfish on light tackle, now wouldn't that be some fun? are they pursued by river fishing enthusiasts or regarded as a trash fish?


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## BasserDrew (Mar 19, 2009)

> i read where the shoalie was more related to the spot than the smallie.



That is correct ODR.  Here is how I put it in my post.



> ODR and FA, you would think that shoalies might be decendents from smallmouth, but in reality they are genetically closest to spotted bass.



Shoalies are also chasers but since they only live in rivers they are also very good ambushers since they hide behind current breaks and in the smallest of seams where there is slack water beside roaring water.  They have a similar quickness to a spot as well.

Most people look at mudfish as trash fish but there are many people out there that love and pursue them.  I don't like them much because they take my $7 spinnerbait and bend it into a pretzel!


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## Old Dead River (Mar 19, 2009)

when my dad was a child (growing up in NE Mississippi) there were men who would go into the river bottoms specifically for the mudfish (grinnel as they called it) I've heard stories about how some of these old gentlemen would perform the meticulous task of "peeling" (not scaling mind you) a bream to entice the big grinnel. They were caught in the sloughs and i recall one angler in particular who would hoist them over his head and onto the bank behind him when setting the hook. He must've had some pretty heavy tackle for that.


I've also been told that grinnel is quite tasty if eaten immediately after being cooked, thereafter it allegedly turns to cotton.


BasserDrew said:


> That is correct ODR.  Here is how I put it in my post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## FishingAddict (Mar 19, 2009)

Old Dead River said:


> I've also been told that grinnel is quite tasty if eaten immediately after being cooked, thereafter it allegedly turns to cotton.




Here is a great write up done a couple of years ago about trying to cook a bowfin/mudfish/grinnel:

http://georgiariverfishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=82


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## Jeff Raines (Mar 20, 2009)

This has been,for me,one of the most educational threads on Woody's in a long time.


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## GA Biologist (Mar 20, 2009)

Guys, this has turned into a really educational thread and I can’t help but add my two cents for what it’s worth.  There were a few questions that popped up and here’s my take.

Question 1. Why are some species endemic to certain habitats when they can survive in others?  A basic rule of biology is that nature tends to like equilibrium.  By this I mean that species adapt to different niches in order to co-exist.  An example is largemouth and shoal bass in the Flint.  These are both bass species and both piscivorous but they co-exist in the river through the utilization of different habitats.  The reason for why shoal bass are only in one geographic region or Suwannee bass are in one region I don’t know and you’ll have to ask a higher deity.  Fact is they are and they exist in these areas fine until man gets involved and moves them into areas where they never would have been on their own.  Now we have a problem because often times the habits or niche of the new species will overlap with an existing species.  Sometimes a species can be moved and actually do better than in its original range.  One example is the case of largemouth bass and smallmouth bass in South Africa.  They have really caused a lot of damage to some really neat environments down there.  You see there is no way these fish would have made it to Africa without the help of man.  Just because they are not there does not mean they can not live there.  Problem is they have destroyed some really neat fish species and upset the equilibrium in these areas.  At the risk of upsetting some people, I believe that the largemouth bass is a wonderful game fish but it just does not need to be everywhere.  Isn’t part of the fun for fishing for different species is to see and be in different environments?  To me it would like going to a ranch and shooting an elk in Georgia, it just isn’t the same.  I’ve said all that to basically say we don’t know why some species are naturally where they are and that there usually is no “free lunch” when we begin moving species around.

Question 2.  Do stripers need 100 river miles for natural reproduction to occur?  The answer is yes and no.  The 100 mile number is kind of an arbitrary number that gets thrown out there a lot.  Striped bass eggs are slightly negatively buoyant (they sink).  They need current to maintain them in the water column or they sink and die.  At about 68 degrees Fahrenheit it takes about 48 hours for striper eggs to hatch.  Longer in cooler water and less in warmer water.  In a river like the Apalachicola, that is channelized and basically a big ditch, it may take 100 miles or more to keep eggs suspended for 48 hrs.  In a river like the Flint that has plenty of shoals to create wrap around and swirling currents it may take half as many miles.  Keep in mind that much of this depends on water velocity, at higher flows you’ll need longer stretches and at lower flows shorter stretches are suitable.  This is probably why we appear to see descent natural recruitment below Albany Dam during lower flows.  

Question 3.  What is the consensus on spots vs. shoalies in rivers?  Good question.  Unfortunately the answer is we don’t know yet.  I can’t speak for more northern areas but in the Lower Flint we haven’t seen any damage yet.  It is possible that spots will be more harmful in this region to largemouths than to shoalies.   We really don’t see very many spots in the habitats that we sample shoalies.  Drew brings up a good point about the hybridization though.  We really aren’t sure what is going to happen with this and is something we are keeping an eye on because spotted bass seem to like to spawn with anything.  There is some evidence of hybridization occurring between the two in small streams.  Difference is that the Lower Flint is not a stream and the two may be able to segregate out without a lot of hybridization.  Unfortunately we don’t know what is going to happen but we are aware of the potential dangers and will be monitoring this.  On a side note, spotted bass are working their way down the Hooch and establishing themselves in lakes like West Point and Walter F. George.  Part of this may be due to the fact that these lakes appear to be changing from eutrophic (fertile) to more oligotrophic (unfertile, clear).  The cause of this is that the lakes are naturally getting older and less fertile and that municipalities have really cleaned up their inputs from sewage and other sources into the rivers.  This change has really favored the spotted bass; maybe this clearer water has allowed spots to more efficiently chase forage as Drew alludes to.  It definitely makes it harder to ambush prey in clearer water.  Whatever the reason it does appear that spots do better in these systems.  

Question 4.  Why are smallmouth endemic to cooler waters?  I am no smallmouth expert by any means but I’ll give you my thoughts.  A lot of fish have a preferred temperature range.  This is the range of temperature that they thrive to their full extent.  Life is good.  Can they live outside of this, yes.  Problem is, outside of this range they usually do not show their full potential.  They either grow really slow because of cold water or they do not attain larger sizes because of warmer waters.  Many times fish will show excellent growth at the upper end of this range.  A few examples are shoal bass in the upper Hooch below Buford Dam do not have nearly the fast growth as shoalies in warmer waters.  Are they surviving there, yes.  Striped bass cannot tolerate temperatures above 70 degrees Fahrenheit.  Actually larger striped bass cannot tolerate these temperatures.  Usually striped bass under about 10 lbs. don’t seem to mind warmer temperatures but fish larger than this cannot tolerate it.  In fact, without springs to over summer in there would be no striped bass over about ten lbs. in the Lower Flint.  When temperatures get above 70, these fish stack into springs that maintain a water temperature of about 68.  The dissolved oxygen concentrations are usually between 4 and 6 ppm depending on the spring.  This is fairly low for such a large active fish but they just cannot handle those high temperatures even though the dissolved oxygen may be higher.  The metabolic demands at higher temperatures are just to great even with more oxygen.  This also occurs in many deep reservoirs.  These lakes go through a stratification process where cold, heavy water goes to the bottom and warm water stays on top of it.  The area where these two meet is called a thermocline.  Stripers really want to be in the cold water but there is no oxygen in this water and they can’t tolerate the higher temperatures of the upper oxygenated level.  They tend to stay right near the thermocline, basically they sacrifice some oxygen for the cooler water.  As summer progresses this area gets smaller and is known as a thermal squeeze.  Long story short, at some point with cool water fish the metabolic demands are just too high for the amount of oxygen that can be contained in the water.  This is why they can get by with less oxygen in lower water temperatures; the cooler water lowers the metabolic rate.  My guess is that this is the same type of phenomena occurring with warm water smallmouth.  They do fine but may not attain their full potential in these habitats.  This would be reason for concern in the Hooch.  

Just some random thoughts.  Remember that all of these species in discussion were adapted/ evolved to live in rivers and natural lakes.  No fish has evolved to live in a man made reservoir.  Man has really changed the natural state of our ecosystems and that’s a lot of the reason we have so many weird things going on.  We have created new habitats that fish have to adapt to and we have also blocked off parts of other habitats that used to allow inputs from ocean dwelling species (i.e. Alabama shad, gulf sturgeon, etc.).  When you really stop to think about it, it is a testimate to these species that any of them are able to flourish.


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## BasserDrew (Mar 20, 2009)

Great post GaBio man!  Jeff, if we didn't learn anything before we sure have now!  

I agree with that post and learned a lot from it.  The only thing that is odd about smallies in the Broad in SC is that they are in a system that gets warmer than their preferred temp range and yet it has not stunted their growth but increased their growth rate.  They get very big in there.  

I have come to the conclusion is that the warm water has sped up their metabolism and they must constantly eat.  I found this recently.  Its from the internet, so it has to be true. 



> Digestion occurs 6 times faster at 77 F than at 44 F.



Then I also saw this in the same article.



> Maximum growth rates are achieved at 80 F for largemouth and 78 F for smallmouth.



Yet, I then saw this from someone who claims to be a smallmouth guru.



> Summer temperatures above 75 degrees will stress smallmouth and sustained temperatures in the 80s are intolerable.



Yeah, right...lol, tell that to the 5lb smallies in the Broad where the water is over 80 for at least a couple months and probably gets in the mid 80s for a month straight.  I know the Hooch will be cooler in the summer with the water coming out of Morgan Falls, even in mid-August, being in the mid to upper 60's.  However, downstream it quickly warms up in the summer due to lower water flows and all that rock exposed.  It will be interesting to see if you can catch them all the way down to the shoals in Franklin about 10 years from now.  I don't think they are going to head up river for the cooler water either because the smallies in the Broad in SC have the choice to run up the cooler Saluda (mid 60's water trout tailrace just like below Lanier) in downtown Columbia as opposed to staying in the scorching Broad where that time of year it is in the 80s - and yet most all of them they stay in the Broad!  

But isn't this why we love these fish, we can never figure them out and if we could it wouldn't be fun anymore.  Rock on dudes!


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## West1938 (Mar 20, 2009)

I eat every one that I catch. Please keep releasing them, that's more for me to stuff my fat belly with.
What's this big deal about releasing anyway.  They keep reproducing don't they?


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## Gentleman4561 (Mar 20, 2009)

Have never gotten a smallie off the hooch we live on it right past Jones Bridge Park supposedly they are farther south of us but i have pulled pickerel out of their that was the biggest surprise ive gotten.  thanks for the video


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## FishingAddict (Mar 20, 2009)

West1938 said:


> I eat every one that I catch. Please keep releasing them, that's more for me to stuff my fat belly with.
> What's this big deal about releasing anyway.  They keep reproducing don't they?



Fish can only produce so many offspring.  Rivers are very easy to over fish, as the fish are much easier to locate and fool with a reaction bait because of the moving water.

In many cases, it's ok to take some- one or two a trip at max. But I'll tell ya if I kept every single fish in my local river, I would definalty make an impact on how many fish were in it for the worse.


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## fburris (Mar 21, 2009)

Great Thread. Good posts guys.


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## fburris (Mar 21, 2009)

Drew, So you are the guy I saw on Georgia Public TV?


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## Timberman (Mar 22, 2009)

The hooch is gonna be full of smallies before long. It is very similiar to the Broad over here in SC, and she's thick with em, like Drew said, all the way to Columbia. I sure hope they dont have a major impact on the shoalies...but I'm thinking they will.


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## ambush80 (Mar 22, 2009)

Are smallies upstream of Morgan Falls?   I caught "something" just downstream of McGinnis Ferry that looked like a fat, brown shoalie that seemed part bird by the way it tried to fly out of the water.  Hooked it in the gills and it was bleeding pretty bad. It was all of 14 inches and weighed maybe a pound and a half.  Tasted like a largemouth.


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## West1938 (Mar 22, 2009)

FishingAddict said:


> Fish can only produce so many offspring.  Rivers are very easy to over fish, as the fish are much easier to locate and fool with a reaction bait because of the moving water.
> 
> In many cases, it's ok to take some- one or two a trip at max. But I'll tell ya if I kept every single fish in my local river, I would definalty make an impact on how many fish were in it for the worse.


I never thought about it that way.
You're right. I may need to back off on how many I take home to cook.
Sorry for being a pig (no more though)


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## slingshot86 (Mar 22, 2009)

You guys a) think too much. b) have too much time. its a BASS. is it really a problem? i have caught dozens of smallies, and if they grew to l/m proportions, there  would be broken rods everywhere. Enjoy !


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## GA Biologist (Mar 23, 2009)

Drew, you are spot on about the metabolism.  You can stock trout down here in the late fall and winter and get some awesome growth on those guys when the water stays in the low 60’s.  Problem is at some point everything collapses.  Think of it like this, fish need oxygen for everything.  So say there is 10 ppm of dissolved oxygen in the water to be consumed by the fish.  Say it needs 3 ppm of this just to maintain homeostasis (basically just maintaining itself while resting).  Now if the fish goes to chase food and digest this food, this takes another 5 ppm.  This leaves 2 ppm of oxygen left over in our oxygen budget; life is good.   The fish can go throughout its daily activities with oxygen to spare.  Now if an increase in temperature occurs and we only have 7 ppm of oxygen to use then: 1) the fish must work harder to extract oxygen from the water which increases respiration and metabolism so now the fish needs 4 ppm to maintain bodily functions, 2) to chase and digest food would use 5 or more ppm.  Now the fish begins to stress because it cannot actively chase food, so it has some decisions to make.  It has to breathe so it will do whatever is necessary to breathe but it will very much limit its other activities because there is just not enough oxygen to carry them out.  Keep in mind these are extremes and you can’t just say that smallies will stress at 78, because a lot of other factors play into this such as pH, salinity, carbon dioxide, etc., etc.  Fish in one system may stress at 75 while fish in another system will stress at 85.  I’m very cautious of speaking in absolutes in this field because sure enough some fish will make you a liar.  It also affects big fish more than smaller fish.  Species are also able to cope with this differently.  There are some studies that show largemouth have hemoglobin that has a higher affinity for oxygen than smallmouth, maybe partly why they are found in such vast habitat types.  Like I said, I have no idea what this break point is but at some point fish will either find cooler water or basically just hang out and survive.  Anyway I’ve said all that to say that I bet if you fish in that cooler water during the hottest part of the year you’ll find some big smallmouth hanging out up there.  
By the way I like the title of Pope Drew.


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## Gordon (Apr 16, 2009)

I heard on the radio the other day that they are considering a reservoir project on the Flint river - even more bad news for the Shoalies :-(


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## Randy (Apr 16, 2009)

Gordon said:


> I heard on the radio the other day that they are considering a reservoir project on the Flint river - even more bad news for the Shoalies :-(




Over my dead body.


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## dgr416 (Apr 16, 2009)

*Smallmouth bass in the Hooch*

I use to catch Small mouth bass in Lanier in the 70s they were few but we caught most of them under docks at night.My biggest suprse was in the amicola River above Hwy 53 trout fishing.I thought it was a hudge brown trout but it jumped and it was a bass 5 pounds.I could kick myself for not getting it mounted.I have caught a bunch of bass in the upper hooch in creeks .I found one honey hole and we caught 30 bass in one day and let them all go.It will suprise you whats in there.The amur grass carp was the biggest suprise a few were over 4 foot long.They need more in there.The weeds are growing fast in the river soon there will be no trout waters below the dam.


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## NWS (Jun 27, 2009)

*Walleyes & Muskies are NEXT!!!!!!!!*

Wouldn't it be SWEET to have some walleys and muskies available in the Hooch.  It might mess up the Trout fishing but it would sure make things more interesting.

I bet the Hooch from Buford Dam down to way below Morgan Falls could easily support Walleyes and Muskies.


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 28, 2009)

> I've also been told that grinnel is quite tasty if eaten immediately after being cooked, thereafter it allegedly turns to cotton.



Somebody lied to you.  Did you ask them when was the last time they had chowed down on a big ol' mudfish fillet?

There's a reason they are called MUDfish

My father grew up dirt poor in Florida, out of solid cracker stock.  They rival the Cajuns for eating about anything.  He used to brag that during the depression, the gophers would get up and run on their back legs like jackrabbits because they were getting chased so much.  And they wouldn't even eat mudfish ("grinners" for them).


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## Philhutch80 (Sep 27, 2019)

baxterchristan27 said:


> This is a very unique situation.. nowhere else would these species ever co-exist in the wild and not enough information is available to determine whether or not this will have a neutral or negative impact. I caught a good one recently at Cochran Shoals that I was certain was a smallmouth x shoalie hybrid. Turns out, after doing some research, a lot of surveys have shown that the number of hybrid black bass is taking off in the hooch. I wish I didn’t leave my phone on the bank that day, because that fish was super crazy looking, and I would love for y’all to see what I’m talking about. Didn’t entirely resemble a shoalie or smallmouth, but had the features of both species.. Not too big, maybe 1.5lbs, but a gorgeous and hard fighting fish. I personally like the idea of having access smallmouth within the metro Atlanta area, however, I think shoal bass are what makes the Chattahoochee special. Out of curiosity, how many of you guys are catching pure smallmouth on the hooch, and how many of y’all have caught suspected hybrids? Either way, I think the Chattahoochee is still awesome regardless of what species ends up becoming dominant, although I would be sad to see the shoalies go. Just not enough information out there about how these species interact.



Calling @ShoalBandit...


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## ShoalBandit (Sep 29, 2019)

Philhutch80 said:


> Calling @ShoalBandit...


Hey thanks for calling Philhutch80 (I think). This thread is 10 years old but moving fish around is bad. We already knew that 10 years ago that's why it's illegal, but that doesn't stop everybody for some reason. There were already a number of unfortunate real-world examples including local extinctions all over the southeast. Multiple studies have also shown moving black bass around where native species already occur is never a good idea. IMO there was already more than enough information available. Apparently species that share a common ancestor within the same drainage develop barrier(s) to reproduction. When humans move nonnative black bass across drainage divides those barriers to reproduction that develop over long periods of time no longer exist so widespread hybridization with native species is inevitable. The local extinction of native species will always be the end result.

Using the molecular clock biologists estimate Shoal Bass have been around for about 8 million years. Now look at what's happened below Morgan Falls Dam in just the last 20 years. Does anybody really think Shoal Bass and nonnative Smallmouth can persist in the same body of water over a long period of time? Every year we see/catch more and more fish that look like hybrids and fewer fish that resemble actual species. How many are Smallmouth and how many are Shoal Bass? I don't think anybody really knows because hybrids often resemble parent species when they start backcrossing making field ID impossible without genetic analysis. We don't know when Smallmouth were illegally introduced (2005?) but hybridization with native Shoal Bass has been extensive. The end result will be the local extinction of the native Shoal Bass. What you're going to end up with eventually is a population of hybrids with highly variable genetic and phenotypic characteristics ranging widely between the four parent types. That's right FOUR because you also have a 38,000 acre reservoir (Lanier) of Alabama Bass upstream and a 26,000 acre reservoir (West Point) of Spotted Bass and Spotted x Alabama hybrids downstream. A study published in 2018 collected and genotyped 29 fish below Morgan Falls Dam. It found all four species were involved in introgressive hybridization. Of 29 fish genotyped (2014-2015 I think) below Morgan Falls Dam and downstream at Cochran Shoals, 45% were pure Shoal Bass. Six hybrid shoal bass included both F1 hybrids and backcrosses with non-natives including Alabama Bass (_M. henshalli_), Spotted Bass (_M. punctulatus_), and Smallmouth Bass.


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## Browniez (Sep 29, 2019)

Boy I’ll tell you we caught a bunch of sho nuff mutts the other day about halfway between West Point and MF


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## fish hawk (Sep 30, 2019)

Browniez said:


> Boy I’ll tell you we caught a bunch of sho nuff mutts the other day about halfway between West Point and MF


The hooch is a wreck.


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## 615groundpounder (Sep 30, 2019)

I caught this one in the Atlanta stretch of the Hooch this Summer.


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## Philhutch80 (Sep 30, 2019)

fish hawk said:


> The hooch is a wreck.



Absolutely agree starting from Lanier down. Sad thing is the state of Georgia and the folks in the gold dome do not care one bit about taking care of the river system. While we await the updated ruling on the AFG Water Wars the river is suffering in a lot of places and dying in others.


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## lampern (Sep 30, 2019)

Is the DNR still stocking shoal bass below Morgan Falls?


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## ShoalBandit (Oct 1, 2019)

lampern said:


> Is the DNR still stocking shoal bass below Morgan Falls?


I think I know the answer but I'm asking somebody that will definitely know just to be sure. I'll post the info when I find out.


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## bigkoiboy (Oct 1, 2019)

ShoalBandit said:


> I think I know the answer but I'm asking somebody that will definitely know just to be sure. I'll post the info when I find out.



I called the fisheries management offices a couple weeks ago to ask and they confirmed that yes, they have been stocking shoalies below Morgan Falls.

I've seen all sorts of bass underneath the falls, it's near impossible to say what you're really catching. I've seen several that appear to be pure smallmouth, pure spots, and pure shoals but just as many that appear to be hybrids of some form. The hooch is definitely a mess, but it's also a very unique fishery. While I agree that we need to defend the shoal bass and find a way to protect the species, the middle hooch is already an incredibly unnatural environment because of the dams and the introduction of loads of non-native species like carp, herring, trout, and stripers. Something I've been wondering about would be if these black bass are preying on stocked rainbows and brownies and if the hooch could produce some trophy trout-eating bass in the next couple years. For being so close to the city it's a relatively untouched body of water and I'm interested to see how it will turn out as a fishery.


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## ShoalBandit (Oct 1, 2019)

That's pretty much what I heard. From 2003-2007 the National Park Service was working with GADNR to stock the offspring of fish collected from the Middle Chattahoochee (below West Point). They started up again in 2011 and have been using the offspring of fish from the Lower Flint. Apparently the Middle Chattahoochee population is now gone or not doing very well so that was the reason for the change.

Trophy Shoal Bass and Largemouth were in the Chattahoochee a long time before humans stocked trout and yes there were (and still are) trophy bass in that section of the river but an increasing majority are hybrids. I think what we're seeing below Morgan Falls Dam is the future. No species just a population of hybrid black bass with highly variable characteristics anglers will call 'bass'.


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## lampern (Oct 1, 2019)

This hybridization will make it hard for the DNR to enforce species specific size limits


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## Browniez (Oct 2, 2019)

“Bass”. Great. Attached is a photo of a standard issue “IDK what mutt this is” from this weekend. Guessing a hybrid shoal/spot/Alabama or some such tomfoolery.

It can’t be undone.

I’ve kept a number of fish from that section and anything getting big down there is doing it eating Crawfish not trout.

Stripers - no shad in their bellies - not one - ever. Dozens of six inch craws though.

Bass - consistently spit up crawfish and nothing else.

There is also a glaring lack of herons below the industrial section below the C.W Matthews plant.

Crawfish like the ones you see down there make it very clear why there were once 20 pound browns and 15 pound rainbows in that section.

Also Gulf Strain stripers are native to the drainage.


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## j_seph (Oct 2, 2019)

*Bass, Smallmouth*










    Smallmouth bass are usually bronze to brownish green, with dark vertical bars on their sides. Unlike largemouth bass, the upper jaw extends only to the middle of the eyes, and the dorsal fin is continuous and not deeply notched. It is most similar in appearance to shoal bass, which usually have a dark spot at the base of the tail.


    Scientific Name: _Micropterus dolomieui_


    Adult size: 7–27 inches


    Distribution: Native to the Tennessee River basin; *introduced in the Chattahoochee and Savannah River basins.*


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