# Reason for Jesus' death?



## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2014)

First let me say I believe Jesus died for our sins and if you believe this you are saved by the grace of God and by God.
What we believe when we are saved is different from what we believe as we learn more about biblical matters.
What we learn for salvation is just the beginning of our learning and is beyond our salvational need.
My question is why did Jesus, the son of God need to die for our sins as how it relates to atonement, sacrafice, blood, sin, physical torment, beating death, etc. 
We have discussed who Jesus is and what part of him died but my question is why or the reason needed.
Was it penal substitutionary atonement, Christus Victor, or other theory?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2014)

We confess that Jesus died for our sins and might not totally understand the concept or reason. Perhaps it is more than one reason with the death being a different reason than his resurrection.
Did the early Church believe he died for the same reason the modern Church believes? 
I can find things like; "he bore the sins of the world that we may be righteous." How did his death actually do this? Was it his death that did this or resurrection?

I'm in no way doubting that Jesus died for my sins, I'm just not real sure why he had to die or how his death did this.
I understand it was a substitution for my death and that the wages of sin is death. We don't all die when we sin though.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2014)

Does it pertain to God's wrath and justice and Jesus received our punishment? 
God requires a full payment for his forgiveness of our sins but we must forgive others without demanding payment if we want him to forgive us. Why was a human sacrafice needed?
Did Jesus save us from the wrath of God or death from sin? Is death a punishment for sin or a natural consequence of sin?


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## hobbs27 (Feb 7, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> We have discussed who Jesus is and what part of him died but my question is why or the reason needed.
> Was it penal substitutionary atonement, Christus Victor, or other theory?


All those things that happened was my sentence for my sins. He paid the price for me.
 I am the one deserving of those things and eternity in he11 but He made a way by paying the price for me.
 Blood has always been the sin sacrifice.. why ? Because that's what God requires. Why ? No one knows.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> All those things that happened was my sentence for my sins. He paid the price for me.
> I am the one deserving of those things and eternity in he11 but He made a way by paying the price for me.



His death did this? Many Christians believe a big part of our lives must contain sufferieng. Was Jesus suffering on the cross a reason for this or our punishment?


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## hobbs27 (Feb 7, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> His death did this? Many Christians believe a big part of our lives must contain sufferieng. Was Jesus suffering on the cross a reason for this or our punishment?



Our suffering is a worldly matter. Christ' suffering was love for us. Many will probably disagree with me, but I don't think a sanctified close walking Christian can suffer on this side. They will celebrate death instead of mourn it, they will welcome persecution in His names sake, they will keep their eyes and mind on heavenly things and put their flesh to death daily. No Satan can't touch those people, we should all strive to be that.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 7, 2014)

Man is sinful.
God is just.
God is merciful.

So how does God deal with sinful man … justly or mercifully?

Justice negates mercy.
Mercy negates justice.
How can He be both just and merciful?

Divine solution;
He satisfies justice for sinful man,
thus facilitating mercy.

Note: Forgiveness of sin without recompence would be mercy without justice.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> Man is sinful.
> God is just.
> God is merciful.
> 
> ...



recompense: 
compensation, as for an injury, wrong, etc.  
a repayment or requital.

God needed compensation in the form of a death?
Is God requiring justice what seperates his need for compensation compared to our forgiving others?
We must forgive others without requiring compensation and God requires it. Is this a result of God as related to justice?


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## formula1 (Feb 7, 2014)

*Re:*

Jesus died for the sole purpose of paying our ransom, that we might become alive to the Spirit and that we might become heirs to  eternal life and the promises of God. He paid my ransom that the righteous requirement of God might be fullfilled.  I deserved to die, I am the one who has sinned against God, but before I even was a thought in my parents, He died for me, that I might live to God!   God forsook His only son for me! That tears me apart when I think of the measure of His love for me!  And He did this for all mankind, even those who hate Him, that they might also have the potential to know God and share eternity with Him.

Psalm 49
7 Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, 8 for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice,9 that he should live on forever and never see the pit.
Then Verse 15;
But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. Selah

Isaiah 35  speaks of the ransomed ones.  It might be a good reading for you.

Isaiah 53:2-5
2 For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men;  a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,and with his wounds we are healed.

My transgressions are healed by the payment of Christ!

Mark 10:45 
For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Colossians 2
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This He set aside, nailing it to the cross. 

God's legal demands that require justice and payment have been satisfied on that cross!

1 Timothy 2
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 

He is my mediator, my bridge to God, only because of the cross!

Revelation 5
9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”

More scriptures should you care to study them:
Romans 5, 1 Cor 15:56, Colossians  1:15-23, Hebrews 2:9, Hebrews 2:14-18, Hebrews 5:7-9,Hebrews 9:11-28,1 Peter 3:18


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2014)

formula1 said:


> Jesus died for the sole purpose of paying our ransom, that we might become alive to the Spirit and that we might become heirs to  eternal life and the promises of God. He paid my ransom that the righteous requirement of God might be fullfilled.  I deserved to die, I am the one who has sinned against God, but before I even was a thought in my parents, He died for me, that I might live to God!   God forsook His only son for me! That tears me apart when I think of the measure of His love for me!  And He did this for all mankind, even those who hate Him, that they might also have the potential to know God and share eternity with Him.
> 
> 
> More scriptures should you care to study them:
> Romans 5, 1 Cor 15:56, Colossians  1:15-23, Hebrews 2:9, Hebrews 2:14-18, Hebrews 5:7-9,Hebrews 9:11-28,1 Peter 3:18



Thanks for the listing. I'll look into them and to Jesus paying our ransom. This would be penal substitutionary atonement or ransom atonement?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2014)

I was reading why  Blood Atonement Theology weakens God. I thought this was a core element of the Christian faith. Something about God forgiving people before he died. The author believe God was all powerfull and therefore didn't require anything to forgive.
God doesn't require us to do anything according to this author. Nothing we can do to help God. Jesus' death required the help of man to be fulfilled. So to believe Jesus had to be crucified for us to be forgiven means that, had we not killed Jesus, God could not have saved us.

What is wrong with this persons way of thinking? I don't agree with him but can't really explain why.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2014)

The Moral Influence Theory was one of the most prevalent in the Early Church. I think this was the belief of Thomas Jefferson as mention in the debates of his Christianity. 

The moral influence view of the atonement teaches that the purpose and work of Jesus Christ was to bring positive moral change to humanity. This moral change came through the teachings and example of Jesus, the Christian movement he founded, and the inspiring effect of his martyrdom and resurrection. It is one of the oldest views of the atonement in Christian theology and a prevalent view for most of Christian history (see below -- History: Early church -- for references). Though God's redemptive love in Jesus were prevalent among writers in the early church, leading some scholars to claim that the moral influence theory was universally taught in the second and third centuries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_influence_theory_of_atonement


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## formula1 (Feb 7, 2014)

*Re:*



Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks for the listing. I'll look into them and to Jesus paying our ransom. This would be penal substitutionary atonement?



Truly, I have never heard of the term, so I had to look it up! More or less I guess the term could apply, except that man must by faith receive the gift, making it apply to only those who accept or believe or receive it. Also, it opens up to us by faith to 'Every spiritual blessing in heavenly places' (Ephesians 1). And I personally don't see it as merely substitutionary, there's something more to it than that. Christ paid for my sin, He was forsaken by God for me, and it just seems 'substitutionary' is just not humanly good enough to describe that work!  I hope you understand!


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2014)

The Governmental Theory of Atonement
The governmental theory teaches that Christ suffered for humanity so that God could forgive humans apart from punishment while still maintaining divine justice.

governmental theory holds that Christ's suffering was a real and meaningful substitute for the punishment humans deserve, but it did not consist of Christ receiving the exact punishment due to sinful people. Instead, God publicly demonstrated his displeasure with sin through the suffering of his own sinless and obedient Son as a propitiation. Christ's suffering and death served as a substitute for the punishment humans might have received. On this basis, God is able to extend forgiveness while maintaining divine order, having demonstrated the seriousness of sin and thus allowing his wrath to "pass over." This view is very similar to the satisfaction view and the penal substitution view, in that all three views see Christ as satisfying God's requirement for the punishment of sin. However, the government view disagrees with the other two in that it does not affirm that Christ endured the precise punishment that sin deserves or paid its sacrificial equivalent; instead, Christ's suffering is seen as being simply an alternative to that punishment. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governmental_theory_of_atonement

I think we discussed this on another thread before whether Jesus died as punishment or an alternative to our punishment.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2014)

formula1 said:


> Truly, I have never heard of the term, so I had to look it up! More or less I guess the term could apply, except that man must by faith receive the gift, making it apply to only those who accept or believe or receive it. Also, it opens up to us by faith to 'Every spiritual blessing in heavenly places' (Ephesians 1). And I personally don't see it as merely substitutionary, there's something more to it than that. Christ paid for my sin, He was forsaken by God for me, and it just seems 'substitutionary' is just not humanly good enough to describe that work!  I hope you understand!



Like I said before these various reasons and theories are worth discussing and are probably not a part of salvation as only God knows what's in our hearts.
That being said, this discussion might not be for everyone.
This is like getting into seminary type stuff but I find it helpful. Especially as I try to pinpoint why Jesus actually had to die. To be honest I never knew there were names for these different beliefs or theories about atonement either.
We did have a recent discussion about Jesus death but mostly related to which entity died. We did touch on if his death was punishment or representative of punishment and what his suffering meant.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2014)

Consider the statements concerning atonement which have been made in the three main confessions of faith held by Southern Baptists. 

Baptist Faith and Message, 1925 Article IV. The Way of Salvations says that the Son of God "...made atonement for our sins by his death."

The BFM1963, Article II. 2. God the Son says about Jesus: "...and in His death on the cross He made provision for the redemption of men from sin." 

The BFM2K, Article II, B. says of Jesus: "...and in His substitutionary death on the cross He made provision for the redemption of men from sin." 

Why was the word "substitutionary" added? Asked by the preacher from my next post.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2014)

The Reduction of Atonement
Dr. Gregory B. Champagne, Pastor
First Baptist Church, Brooksville, Florida

Write this down: I believe in the substitutionary atonement of Christ! Please make no mistake about this. Don’t go around even suggesting that I would remove or disparage this description of the work of Christ. I am glad and thankful that he died in my place. I have personally claimed him as my Lord and Savior. I want you to consider this also: I believe there are additional biblical and historical ways of describing the atonement. I would prefer that the word "substitutionary" not be used alone in a confession, only because it squeezes out other possible descriptions of the atonement. 

Historically there are several ways in which atonement has been described. Some of the champions of these views have not been Baptist but these thoughts have found their way into Baptist expression. Let me identify some of these models for atonement and give some scripture references that support them. 

RANSOM
Jesus said in Mark 10:45: For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many. The ransom description holds that the life and death of Christ was an agreed upon price, paid to secure human freedom from the bondage and consequence of sin. There is historical discussion as to whom the ransom was paid, but the best understanding relies more on the practical outcome than any kind of technical transaction. Other supporting scriptures are 1 Corinthians 6:20 and 1 Timothy 2:5-6. 

MORAL INFLUENCE
This description teaches that humans cannot be freed of our fear of God and respond to God’’s love. Jesus embodied the love of God by his life and death and this grasps our imagination and moves our heart toward repentance. Hebrews 2:14-15 says: Since therefore, the children share flesh and blood, he himself likewise shared the same things, so that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death. Other supporting scriptures are: John 6:44; Romans 3:24-25; 5:8; 1 Corinthians 2:8; 2 Corinthians 5:19-20 and 1 John 4:10 

SATISFACTION
Disobedience is an affront to God which requires satisfaction. Christ took the punishment of humans and satisfied God’’s just demands. It was a way in which God could display both righteousness and love at the same time. Romans 3:24-25 They are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed.


CHRISTUS VICTOR
This description says that humans are regarded as enslaved by sin and death and the devil. God, in Christ, accomplishes the work of defeating these powers. Romans 5:18-19: Therefore, just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. For just as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Also in Colossians 2:14-15 consider that Christ forgave all our trespasses, erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it. This description has also been called the classical view of atonement. 

SUBSTITUTIONARY
Christ died in the place of sinners. Christ paid a price to extinguish the guilt of human crimes by taking on the punishment. Isaiah 53:4-5 Surely he has borne our infirmities and carried our diseases; yet we accounted him stricken, struck down by God and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole and by his bruises we are healed. See also Galatians 3:13. 

Each of these descriptions has some ability to describe the work of Christ for us authenticated by scripture. All of them credit God doing the work, Christ being the means and us being the beneficiaries of grace through faith. 

Why worry about the inclusion of the word "substitutionary". Again, let me say that this is one good and correct means to describe the work of God in Christ, but it is not the only one.

Inserting the word "substitutionary" creates a flat picture of atonement. It is a good picture but because the scripture applies others descriptors of atonement we should take those additional descriptions into account. These others descriptions do not detract from a substitutionary view but rather enhances it and gives it greater depth of meaning.

I prefer the BFM1963 statement or even the 1925 statement which do not constrict the definition of atonement by using the word "substitutionary".

http://www.mainstreambaptists.org/mbn/atonement.htm


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## M80 (Feb 7, 2014)

Jesus was the only one that could be the atonement of our sin. He was perfect, he was the lamb without spot. The bible says in Hebrews without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. So he became the supreme sacrifice.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 7, 2014)

Hebrews 10:5-10: “Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you had no pleasure. Then I said, 'Behold, I have come-- in the volume of the book it is written of Me-- to do Your will, O God.' " Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law), then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”


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## M80 (Feb 7, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> Hebrews 10:5-10: “Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you had no pleasure. Then I said, 'Behold, I have come-- in the volume of the book it is written of Me-- to do Your will, O God.' " Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law), then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”



Amen


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## Israel (Feb 7, 2014)

Creation is a remarkable thing. All of us, even as men...know something of it.
We know what it is to invest ourselves in something with the hope of something good to be the product.
Artists surely do, but even the humblest of cobblers, know it.
The seeming paradox of God's unlimited ability, when met with his intention to not only make a "thing"...but to fashion something to be as himself, in his image and likeness, is far beyond my grasp, regardless of how I see it.
Even the most brilliant of scientific tinkerers, were he to set out to make something like himself, cannot improve upon God's original means...a son.
The Lamb slain...a child of "his own", not only speaks of his "being", being shared...but his total investment in that.
That the Christ, the life giving spirit, submitted to being clothed in flesh in order to bring the many sons to glory who were themselves once subject to death, is beyond comprehension, by me.
I see a magnificence, I see a plan, I see a means, but really, I feel, to see that just speaks to how much I don't yet see.

To make of clay, what would be fit to have an eye to eye, heart to heart relationship with the God who is God leaves me, at best speaking of mechanisms.
I build so many things I am glad I have not signed. Or been forced to own up to. Even my best always leaves me a little embarrassed.
Not so, God in Jesus the Christ.
To be found in him, O!, to be found in him.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2014)

I guess it boils down to God's judgement. God said there had to be atonement and there are legalities in the spiritual realm the we don't completely grasp. 
This is why God requires a blood sacrifice but expects us to forgive without atonement. God's justice required a specific set of things to happen in order for atonement to happen. Jesus' death appeased God's wrath. Maybe God's perfection requires a sacrifice. We're not perfect so therefore we don't ask for a sacrifice when we forgive others.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Jesus was the only one that could be the atonement of our sin. He was perfect, he was the lamb without spot. The bible says in Hebrews without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. So he became the supreme sacrifice.



I'm not doubting you but were you talking about this verse?
Hebrews 9:22
New Living Translation
In fact, according to the law of Moses, nearly everything was purified with blood. For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.

In this verse doesn't the last part pertain to the first part?
What are some better verses that show proof of Jesus' death being a blood sacrifice.

I'm singing the song "nothing but the blood of Jesus" in my head as I type. I would like to tie this in with a verse saying his death was a blood sacrifice or that blood was needed.


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## M80 (Feb 7, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not doubting you but were you talking about this verse?
> Hebrews 9:22
> New Living Translation
> In fact, according to the law of Moses, nearly everything was purified with blood. For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.
> ...


Hebrews is filled with what your looking for. Read Hebrews 9 vrs 1-28 KJV. This should be enough


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Hebrews is filled with what your looking for. Read Hebrews 9 vrs 1-28 KJV. This should be enough



That was very helpful. It does appear that blood was needed. Some things I was reading said Blood meant Death in regards to the Blood of Jesus. That his death wasn't a blood sacrifice. Quoting Micah 6:7-8
7Does the LORD take delight in thousands of rams, In ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I present my firstborn for my rebellious acts, The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?

When the Romans put down the Jewish rebellion in 70 CE, they destroyed the temple in Jerusalem and that ended Jewish animal sacrifice, as Jews believe such sacrifice can only be offered in the temple. But the witness of Jesus ended animal sacrifice for the first Christians, who were all Jewish, because it described Jesus as God’s act of loving self-sacrifice.

Jesus is God’s self-sacrifice for us. The crucifixion of Jesus is God’s reconciling act of love. When we say "Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us," we are praying to God using the ancient, mythological language of sacrifice. We are not literally talking about the sacrifice of one life for all our lives, for that would deny the love of God and demean us. The cross is the symbol of our faith, because it put an end to the blood sacrifice of animals and also of men, who we see as enemies of God’s will on earth.

http://christian-bible.com/Exegesis/Witness/blood.sacrifice.htm

This is a substitution view vs a ransom view.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2014)

How is the atonement of Jesus related to the Covenant of Israel? They couldn't keep the original plan of God. 
Maybe his second plan was actually a part of his first plan. In which case Israel was set up. 

Either way,  because of the covenant, we bring Heavenly legalities into the equation. God has a legal contract that must require a ransom. Again, and I haven't received an answer, is this why God can't forgive without this ransom yet he requires us to?


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## Ronnie T (Feb 7, 2014)

Here's another thought.

What if Jesus had not yet come and thus had not died and been resurrected?
Where would we Gentiles be?  Would we be offering our lambs as burnt offerings?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> Here's another thought.
> 
> What if Jesus had not yet come and thus had not died and been resurrected?
> Where would we Gentiles be?  Would we be offering our lambs as burnt offerings?



That is a good thought and adds to the questions of the many reasons/meanings/and changes that occurred when Jesus came/died/resurrected.


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## warmouth (Feb 7, 2014)

Dang man. I love your questions. You just ask so many so fast it is hard to respond, lol. How knowledgeable are you of the Old Testament? Hobbs has given some fantastic answers by the way.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 8, 2014)

I'm not very knowledgeable at all. I did grow up in a Southern Baptist Church and realized a few years ago to go out and discover what I might be missing as pertaining to really understanding what the Bible means. I do like to see Biblical proof instead of speculation.
God hardening Pharaoh's heart because it was already hardened is a good example.
The more I learn opens up many doors to things I don't know. It would be like going out to buy a life insurance policy. As you learn about the various policies you will ask many questions that you didn't even have the knowledge to ask before you knew.

What I would really like an answer on first is this. Either way, because of the covenant, we bring Heavenly legalities into the equation. God has a legal contract that must require a ransom. Again, and I haven't received an answer, is this why God can't forgive without this ransom yet he requires us to? 

Why am I required to forgive others without a redemption/sacrifice/ransom/recompense that God needs to forgive us? Why does God need this as a part of forgiveness but requires me to forgive without one? His perfection or justice perhaps.
Second doesn't God take away from his own power by his requirement of a ransom or sacrifice? Doesn't Jesus dying on the cross for our salvation include the use of man to make it happen? Kinda like God depending on man to spread the Word. God keeps using man for too many things we might not be capable of doing. Did man have a hand in killing Jesus? Was it free will or predestination?
Maybe your belief of predestination will make it easier for you to answer. For me it's a tad bit harder. My stupid free will has me thinking. Now you see why I said earlier it's unfortunate that I believe in free will. Your way is easier.
My free will belief could be my albatross. Each of us has some hidden crutch we are burdened with.


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## Israel (Feb 8, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not very knowledgeable at all. I did grow up in a Southern Baptist Church and realized a few years ago to go out and discover what I might be missing as pertaining to really understanding what the Bible means. I do like to see Biblical proof instead of speculation.
> God hardening Pharaoh's heart because it was already hardened is a good example.
> The more I learn opens up many doors to things I don't know. It would be like going out to buy a life insurance policy. As you learn about the various policies you will ask many questions that you didn't even have the knowledge to ask before you knew.
> 
> ...



There's only one way for any of it to work...the "I" that can't do what Jesus says is either dealt with...or not.
A man will either come to this in his own heart...or not.
You are entirely correct in your perceptions of fretting, but there remains something better than just being correct.

For all of us.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 8, 2014)

Israel said:


> There's only one way for any of it to work...the "I" that can't do what Jesus says is either dealt with...or not.
> A man will either come to this in his own heart...or not.
> You are entirely correct in your perceptions of fretting, but there remains something better than just being correct.
> 
> For all of us.



Amen for that, I have the liberty of the "something better."
Now I'm just filling in the blanks so to speak.
I don't feel the blanks are as important as the "something better," just Biblical gravy.


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## Israel (Feb 8, 2014)

Ecce Homo


Slogging through time's sluice
we faint with footing feebled
by crashing currents against fleshed out frames.
Ah! To be narrow and slyly slip
and dart slighting friction's fury
to keep us stayed upon this slope impassable.
Is none to forge the way
to time's font and head
standing free atop to tell what lies at our end?
Has none the skill nor craft of being
that being not be lost
though all else wash away?
"In time be washed not wasted!"
comes a call on high,
"Rejoice your being merest of men!"
And from whose head freely flows
in testament of glorious peace
allowance of lifted heel and toe.
"Be carried, be carried to your end
spread arms and legs and float in grace!"
What grace has made a way in time's rush.
Repentance is a turn in time
that time befuddled lose its grip
and being seemless sewn with purpose now
we see our beginning be our end,
a birth.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 8, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> Here's another thought.
> 
> What if Jesus had not yet come and thus had not died and been resurrected?
> Where would we Gentiles be? Would we be offering our lambs as burnt offerings?


 
We'd be checking off the law of Moses one by one (if our conscience was pricked by it), 
and coming to an end of ourselves,
waiting for the new Moses* to arrive


(*) Hebrews 3:2


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 9, 2014)

If salvation is by grace alone in the form of God's forgiveness, I'm still trying to figure out why he required a substitute. 
Salvation is not just by God's grace alone but by God's grace and the death of his Son.
Maybe God's justice was satisfied through Christ's death on the cross and this is a result of his grace.
Maybe this is a mystery better left alone.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 9, 2014)

For whatever the reason God thought Jesus needed to die, we do know that Jesus died to wash our sins away. It might have been wrath, love, judgement, or all three.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> If salvation is by grace alone in the form of God's forgiveness, I'm still trying to figure out why he required a substitute.
> Salvation is not just by God's grace alone but by God's grace and the death of his Son.
> Maybe God's justice was satisfied through Christ's death on the cross and this is a result of his grace.
> Maybe this is a mystery better left alone.



Jesus taking the beating the humiliation, and being hang on a cross in your place is the grace that gave you salvation.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 10, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus taking the beating the humiliation, and being hang on a cross in your place is the grace that gave you salvation.



Yep: grace upon grace, upon grace, upon grace ...


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2014)

Maybe my problem is trying to divide God's grace from the death of Jesus. Is it OK to give credit to both God and Jesus? Credit to God for giving us his son and credit to Jesus for going through with his ordeal?
I do see everything including the death of Jesus being about the Kingdom of God. It's all about God, yet we call our religion Christianity as we must accept Jesus as our savior.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe my problem is trying to divide God's grace from the death of Jesus. Is it OK to give credit to both God and Jesus? Credit to God for giving us his son and credit to Jesus for going through with his ordeal?
> I do see everything including the death of Jesus being about the Kingdom of God. It's all about God, yet we call our religion Christianity as we must accept Jesus as our savior.



IMO, your problem in trying to make sense of it all begins with your seperating the Son from God. God is The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. Take away one and all you have is a god. The Father is not God without The Son and the Holy Spirit. When you understand this everything else will fall into place.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not very knowledgeable at all. I did grow up in a Southern Baptist Church and realized a few years ago to go out and discover what I might be missing as pertaining to really understanding what the Bible means. I do like to see Biblical proof instead of speculation.
> God hardening Pharaoh's heart because it was already hardened is a good example.
> The more I learn opens up many doors to things I don't know. It would be like going out to buy a life insurance policy. As you learn about the various policies you will ask many questions that you didn't even have the knowledge to ask before you knew.
> 
> ...



I am running out of colors.

Blue. The ranson is yourself. You as the self which is of the world and your physical body will die.  You also will die and suffer as a saint for the sins of the world. ( Your soul and eventually your resurrected body will not die however.)

Red.  ditto above. example, as Jesus wicked off the unrighteousness of the first covenant and offered the new, you must wick off the offences, for your own cross of descipleship, of all the Christians that are grinding their salt down to uselessness and the offences that still exist for the consequences of original sin.

Green. God adds to his power by being patient with man. As the burning bush to Moses ushered a chosen people simply because God hears the cries and prayers of the oppressed, so was the sacrifice on the cross similar to Him in the fire that spoke to Moses. The cross burns out the old and offers new beginnings--if only for the prayers of the prophets. And the cross makes God more powerful. The light we know is not the light of a voice in the burning bush now, it is the light of Him made man.

Purple: Yes... the light of Jesus both man and God. But had not man rebelled in the first place there would be no need of Jesus' ministry and death and resurrection. With no rebellion man would not be spitting at the face of God, knowingly and unknowingly,  even to this day.

Sienna: We kill God knowingly and unknowingly. The Romans killed Jesus because he was uncomfortable for the Jewish authorities and to themselves. Pilot could wash his hands of it for doing his job as Roman authority and so could Caiaphas as Jewish authority. These sort of things are still happening today. Often the one or ones we answer to,  is/are our authorities. A man's bread is often his  Lord in secret. And even if another said, " You live not by it alone.", the saying, it really matters little in the world we all live in.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe my problem is trying to divide God's grace from the death of Jesus. Is it OK to give credit to both God and Jesus? Credit to God for giving us his son and credit to Jesus for going through with his ordeal?
> I do see everything including the death of Jesus being about the Kingdom of God. It's all about God, yet we call our religion Christianity as we must accept Jesus as our savior.


Art, Hobbs has likely identified your stumbling block on this issue, "Salvation is not just by God's grace alone but by God's grace and the death of his Son."  That identifies a separation that isn't.

I don't disagree with Hobbs about the relationships within, what is called, the Godhead.  But, from what he said, I doubt that I fully agree either.  I believe that there is a big elephant in the church there; one that seems to be the least problem when it is kept in the closet.  IMHO that relationship has not been fully revealed; probably because we are not capable of appreciating the intimacy, sacrifice, selflessness, and otherness of it.

There may not be a complete and correct answer for us, but there are a plethora of incorrect answers.  We can tell when we have a wrong answer by looking at what has been revealed.  The result is that few of the not-incorrect answers are in full agreement.  If we can not be  satisfied with not-incorrect, well, we have 1700 years of the result.

Perhaps the best thing for you to do would be to accept that God provided the required sacrifice for us, unless you are determined to solve a 1700 year old problem today.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> I am running out of colors.
> 
> Blue. The ranson is yourself. You as the self which is of the world and your physical body will die.  You also will die and suffer as a saint for the sins of the world. ( Your soul and eventually your resurrected body will not die however.)
> 
> ...



Thanks, this is the first explanation I received regarding the forgiveness question.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> IMO, your problem in trying to make sense of it all begins with your seperating the Son from God. God is The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. Take away one and all you have is a god. The Father is not God without The Son and the Holy Spirit. When you understand this everything else will fall into place.



Actually when I did believe they were one, it even more confusing. I'll have to agree with hummerpoo and let the mystery be.

John 20:17 
I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 

1 Corinthians 11:3 
The head of Christ is God. 

1 Corinthians 15:28 
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 

1 Timothy 2:5 
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 

It appears someone seperated them long before I did.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> Art, Hobbs has likely identified your stumbling block on this issue, "Salvation is not just by God's grace alone but by God's grace and the death of his Son."  That identifies a separation that isn't.
> 
> I don't disagree with Hobbs about the relationships within, what is called, the Godhead.  But, from what he said, I doubt that I fully agree either.  I believe that there is a big elephant in the church there; one that seems to be the least problem when it is kept in the closet.  IMHO that relationship has not been fully revealed; probably because we are not capable of appreciating the intimacy, sacrifice, selflessness, and otherness of it.
> 
> ...



You are correct and I'm realizing I'm not the only one who can't figure it out. We have multipe theories as to why Jesus had to die. I do think there are multiple reasons why Jesus died and what his resurrection did. Most of the people who came up with these various theories and Christians who believe in these theories are Trinitarians. Their Trinitarian belief didn't help them find a common answer. I can't really see where that belief helped them with the mystery. If the Bible doesn't say then maybe  we shouldn't try to reconcile everything with an answer. Just like saying Pharoah's  heart was already hardened. Does the Bible really say that or does it say God hardened Pharoah's heart?
The important thing is and what we do know is, that Jesus' death washed our sins away.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> You are correct and I'm realizing I'm not the only one who can't figure it out. We have multipe theories as to why Jesus had to die. I do think there are multiple reasons why Jesus died and what his resurrection did. Most of the people who came up with these various theories and Christians who believe in these theories are Trinitarians. Their Trinitarian belief didn't help them find a common answer. I can't really see where that belief helped them with the mystery. If the Bible doesn't say then maybe  we shouldn't try to reconcile everything with an answer. Just like saying Pharoah's  heart was already hardened. Does the Bible really say that or does it say God hardened Pharoah's heart?



Is not the base line for the necessity of Christ's death the depravity of men combined with the holiness of God?

I would caution against being too satisfied with the separateness of the Godhead, you'll find just as much clarity of scripture declaring unity.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 10, 2014)

All you folks might not sound so utterly confusing this morning if you'd use some scripture from time to time.  Everyone's talking about different issues of grace.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 10, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> All you folks might not sound so utterly confusing this morning if you'd use some scripture from time to time.  Everyone's talking about different issues of grace.




Interesting. 


"This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. Jeremiah 31:33


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2014)

2 Corinthians 5:18-20
18All of this comes from God, who has reconciled us to himself through the Messiah and has given us the ministry of reconciliation19 for through the Messiah, God was reconciling the world to himself by not counting their sins against them. He has committed his message of reconciliation to us 20Therefore, we are the Messiah's representatives, as though God were pleading through us. We plead on the Messiah's behalf: "Be reconciled to God!"


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## gordon 2 (Feb 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> 2 Corinthians 5:18-20
> 18All of this comes from God, who has reconciled us to himself through the Messiah and has given us the ministry of reconciliation19 for through the Messiah, God was reconciling the world to himself by not counting their sins against them. He has committed his message of reconciliation to us 20Therefore, we are the Messiah's representatives, as though God were pleading through us. We plead on the Messiah's behalf: "Be reconciled to God!"




 It is scripture like this that make men and women stop searching for the golden apple in their lives. Thanks.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 10, 2014)

1 John 5:7.


For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> My question is why did Jesus, the son of God need to die for our sins as how it relates to atonement, ....



Really? 

I have to ask.  If you don't know the answer to your question how can you understand why you were saved, how you were saved, what you were saved from, and why you needed to be saved in the first place and if you are in fact saved?  

I'm sort of with Ronnie on this in that Scripture tends to answer these type of questions.  Have you ever read Romans?


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## Ronnie T (Feb 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> 2 Corinthians 5:18-20
> 18All of this comes from God, who has reconciled us to himself through the Messiah and has given us the ministry of reconciliation19 for through the Messiah, God was reconciling the world to himself by not counting their sins against them. He has committed his message of reconciliation to us 20Therefore, we are the Messiah's representatives, as though God were pleading through us. We plead on the Messiah's behalf: "Be reconciled to God!"



Great verse.... Just remember this(and verify it for yourself if you like), Paul is talking about himself and the other apostles when he uses the pronoun "we" in this verse.  He isn't here speaking directly about Christians in Corinth.
But the first part of verse 19 Paul is speaking to any who believe.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Really?
> 
> I have to ask.  If you don't know the answer to your question how can you understand why you were saved, how you were saved, what you were saved from, and why you needed to be saved in the first place and if you are in fact saved?
> 
> I'm sort of with Ronnie on this in that Scripture tends to answer these type of questions.  Have you ever read Romans?



Yes I  have so Penal Substitution Atonement through a blood sacrafice it is.
God did this to demonstrate his righteousness.

I was saved when I was 12 and never have really understood a lot things that I just took for granted about the atonement. Again, I'm not the only person who has not found all of the answers about atonement. You'll have to bear with me, there is a lot about Christianity that I don't know yet but I'm learning. Have you looked through this whole thread and seen all of the different atonement theories?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2014)

I was reading Romans this morning as a matter of fact:
Romans 5:9-11
9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> Great verse.... Just remember this(and verify it for yourself if you like), Paul is talking about himself and the other apostles when he uses the pronoun "we" in this verse.  He isn't here speaking directly about Christians in Corinth.
> But the first part of verse 19 Paul is speaking to any who believe.



Sometimes I have trouble "rightly dividing the word of truth:
Romans thru Philemon.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Really?
> 
> I have to ask.  If you don't know the answer to your question how can you understand why you were saved, how you were saved, what you were saved from, and why you needed to be saved in the first place and if you are in fact saved?
> 
> I'm sort of with Ronnie on this in that Scripture tends to answer these type of questions.  Have you ever read Romans?



I would like to hear your answers to those basic question. I'll try to give you mine. I was saved because I believe Jesus died for my sins. I don't know if he took my punishment or not. I don't know if God punished his son with the stabbings and such. I'm trying to figure out how a loving God still needs a substitute to forgive me when he requires me to forgive without a substitute. I only received one answer. Thanks Gordon for your answer. I would like your answer to this question too. I think it has to do with his perfection and justice.
Next question, I was saved by the grace of God. That's my final answer on that question. We've all mostly come to believe that as the correct answer and I truly believe it to be the correct and my own answer. 
I was saved from He11 or death. This one I'm not 100% sure of. Some verses say we are saved from death and some say he11. Death or everlasting life in Heaven. I personally believe it's He!!. Maybe speculation on my part. Either is a good enough reason for needing Salvation or a Messiah. I'm not even real sure where Heaven is. Even if it's an eternity on Earth, it's a reason for Salvation and a Messiah. 
I would say I never needed saving in the first place as I don't warrant being saved. Again I can only thank God's grace and his Gift of his son as my Messiah.
I still have trouble knowing I'm 100% saved. You would think with all I've said and all I've read, I would know beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm really working on that answer daily. Something about nuts from a fig tree still haunts me. That and me forgiving others. 
OK, your turn.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> 1 John 5:7.
> 
> 
> For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.



There aren't too many Bibles that say that. Most say something like this;

7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

I don't know why people yesterday and today feel a need to add or take away from what God said. This has nothing to do with the Trinity being true or not. It's just people not saying what God said. 
There is a very good possibility the Trinity is true and I have it wrong. My belief might be wrong but don't force me to believe by using wrongly interpreted verses. I can provide you with better Trinity verses if you like.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 11, 2014)

Art, concerning the trinity I think wiki points to an important distinction in understanding the concept of trinity. Check it out. 

 Quote["In this context, a "nature" is what one is, while a "person" is who one is.[3][4][5]] end quote.

The reason I bring this up is that my understanding of God as the trinity is not necessarily gained from scripture. It is perhaps a gain outside of scripture, or from tradition, as related by people who have a good understanding of who God is-- as opposed to what God is. 

Who is Jesus? Mary's son. Who is Mary? Why is it said she was full of Grace? What does this mean? Through Mary both son of man, son of Adam, new Adam, and son of God and fully God. Mary's son conceived of the Holy Spirit...., you know Him. Jesus the son of Joseph by wedlock. Jesus who called his disciples, died on the cross and was raised on the third day. You...know.... Mary's son.

What is Jesus? Our redeemer. Savoir. Minister. Lord. God. Miracle worker. Teacher. Friend. Brother. Priest. Head of the church. etc....

Who is Father?.... 
What is the Father?....

Who is the Holy Spirit?....
What is the Holy Spirit?....


Who are we?...
What are we?...


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 11, 2014)

From another thread was asked;
Was the penalty for original sin a physical death or a spiritual death?
I guess using the term "spiritual death" as seperation from God, then yes he died a spiritual death. His spirit didn't die as our spirit's live forever or go somewhere forever.
When Jesus died physically, his spirit didn't die, it went somewhere. His spirit was reunited into his resurrected body. He wasn't a ghost. 
Now why is our penalty for sin a spiritual death as in an eternity in he11 as opposed to "everlasting life?"
Is an eternity in He11 considered spiritual death? Was Jesus ever seperated from his Father when he died on the cross? Did Jesus ever experience a spiritual death?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 11, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Art, concerning the trinity I think wiki points to an important distinction in understanding the concept of trinity. Check it out.
> 
> Quote["In this context, a "nature" is what one is, while a "person" is who one is.[3][4][5]] end quote.
> 
> ...



It must be even harder to understand the Trinity when we add Mary, full of grace. Not that you are saying she is part of the Trinity but part of your understanding of divinity.  I do understand the concept you are presenting.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 11, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> From another thread was asked;
> Was the penalty for original sin a physical death or a spiritual death?
> I guess using the term "spiritual death" as seperation from God, then yes he died a spiritual death. His spirit didn't die as our spirit's live forever or go somewhere forever.
> When Jesus died physically, his spirit didn't die, it went somewhere. His spirit was reunited into his resurrected body. He wasn't a ghost.
> ...



Good questions. Why do u have so many again...?

 Note that your term "spiritual death"...you define as "separation from God".

 As far as I know the penalty or consequence of original sin was/is physical death, not spiritual death, on this side of the pond. 

The result of our own sin which we did knowing they were sin and for which we did not repent, for these following judgement there will be consequences.( If I understood correctly.)

 We are told that sin against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. Some person or persons that would willfully and knowingly spin bad as good and good as bad would qualify in my opinion.

So two things going on here. One here  and  another on the other shore for very different reasons. Here we suffer the consequence of original sin or Adam's rebellion. On the other shore we can suffer the consequences of our own rebellion(s) if we chose.

My simple instinct it that Jesus' last  words on the cross were words to the Father or a quote from scripture. I don't think spiritual death was a fact as he died, seems to me these last words would not have been possible if spiritual dead or diminished maybe.  

I'm sure someone will pipe in with a scriptural answer at some point.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 11, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Good questions. Why do u have so many again...?
> 
> Note that your term "spiritual death"...you define as "separation from God".
> 
> ...



I'm usually told I should already have these answers and perhaps I should. At least you give answers and I appreciate that. Some just say I should know the answers but don't offer theirs. It would be helpful if they offered from their heart what they believe.


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## Israel (Feb 12, 2014)

it took nothing less radical than the slaughter of the innocent Lamb of God to reach me, upend me, eradicate the illusions I would otherwise love and cling to...without the reality of God himself willing to be so manifestly, starkly, undeniably, in my sight, everything I could have never grasped if left to myself, I remain as lost and hopeless as any devil.

The reason for the death of the one who is the Prince of life?
To save the one whose life only testified of the prince of death.


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## hawglips (Feb 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm in no way doubting that Jesus died for my sins, I'm just not real sure why he had to die or how his death did this.
> I understand it was a substitution for my death and that the wages of sin is death. We don't all die when we sin though.



Personal sin results in spiritual death.   

Adam's transgression brought physical death to us all.

Jesus death saved us from both.  

Because of Christ, all of us are redeemed from physical death, regardless.   But only those that are washed clean in the blood of the Lamb are saved from spiritual death.


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## hawglips (Feb 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> 1 John 5:7.
> 
> 
> For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.




John 17: 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, _that they may be one, as we are_.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 20, 2014)

John 17:21
I pray that all of these people continue to have unity in the way that you, Father, are in me and I am in you. I pray that they may be united with us so that the world will believe that you have sent me.


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