# is there free will?



## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

So if god is omniscient (all knowing), can there still be free will?

Sorry Tex,  this one's been a burr under my saddle forever.


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## dawg2 (Apr 25, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> So if god is omnipotent (all knowing), can there still be free will?
> 
> Sorry Tex,  this one's been a burr under my saddle forever.



Him "knowing" does not eliminate your decision making process.


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

seems to me that if if god knows everything, like the location, growth rate and number of every hair on my head, and he knows that eve was gonna eat the apple, did she really make a choice?


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Him "knowing" does not eliminate your decision making process.




I still don't get it.  Its not really a decision if the outcome has already been written in the "book of life" or whatever it is.


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

Its like Goldilocks and the 3 bears.   She's not choosing to eat the porridge or sleep in the bed cause the stories already written


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

anymor than i'm "deciding" what to type. Its a done deal.


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## PJason (Apr 25, 2008)

If there is no free will, and God wills that every man be saved then will every man be saved because it is God's will.


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

PJason said:


> If there is no free will, and God wills that every man be saved then will every man be saved because it is God's will.



You tell me.  I still don't get it.  actually in researching an answer I came across a mindblower I had never considered.

god can't have free will because he knows what he's going to do already.

wild.


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

PJason said:


> If there is no free will, and God wills that every man be saved then will every man be saved because it is God's will.



seems to me that he already knows who is gonna be saved and who isn't.


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## dawg2 (Apr 25, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> You tell me.  I still don't get it.  actually in researching an answer I came across a mindblower I had never considered.
> 
> god can't have free will because he knows what he's going to do already.
> 
> wild.



It goes beyond human comprehension.  Free will is the ability to "choose."  God allows you that.  He knows what you will do, and allows it regardless of whether He knows or not, He allows it.


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

if there's a moderator out there, you should just zap this thread into oblivion.  This is gonna mess some folks up and I don't wanna be the cause of it.


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## dawg2 (Apr 25, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> if there's a moderator out there, you should just zap this thread into oblivion.  This is gonna mess some folks up and I don't wanna be the cause of it.



It's too late.  You made that decision


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> It goes beyond human comprehension.  Free will is the ability to "choose."  God allows you that.  He knows what you will do, and allows it regardless of whether He knows or not, He allows it.




allows it or makes it happen (like the sunrise)?


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## PJason (Apr 25, 2008)

1 Tim 2:3-4

This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 
who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.




So if God wills it, then it must be.


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> It's too late.  You made that decision



not by the will of an omnipotent, omniscient god i didn't


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

PJason said:


> 1 Tim 2:3-4
> 
> who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.




does it then happen so?


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## PJason (Apr 25, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> allows it or makes it happen (like the sunrise)?




allows it


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

PJason said:


> 1 Tim 2:3-4
> 
> This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
> who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
> ...



has it happened?


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## dawg2 (Apr 25, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> allows it or makes it happen (like the sunrise)?



He allows the sunrise too.  He could stop that as well.  He allows you to make your own decisions, He doesn't "make" you do things.


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## PJason (Apr 25, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> does it then happen so?



Does it? Are all men saved?


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

PJason said:


> Does it? Are all men saved?




if thats what it says than i guess so


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

whew!


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> He allows the sunrise too.  He could stop that as well.  He allows you to make your own decisions, He doesn't "make" you do things.



i think thats an important point. does a god who set the course of EVERYTHING (grass growing, birds chirping, stray bullet hitting a sleeping kid) allow things or make them happen?


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## biggtruxx (Apr 25, 2008)

You have a choice in life to choose to live (free will) godlike. He gives you choices to make and its up to you to take the right path. He doesnt control you, we all have a choice to live as we wish. He does know all, the way i comprehend an all knowing god is this. If he knew then it happend already right? He has a plan for us layed out before were even born. It is up to us to choose the path he has laid out and let him lead us through life. 

I think of it this way. If its storming like crazy with lightning all around do you run for cover or stand there in it?  That is free will it was your decision to change where you were.

My God is a loving,Holy,all knowing,caring,Passionate God!


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

biggtruxx said:


> He does know all,. If he knew then it happend already right? He has a plan for us layed out before were even born. It is up to us to choose the path he has laid out and let him lead us through life.
> 
> 
> 
> My God is a loving,Holy,all knowing,caring,Passionate God!




all layed out.... and "choose"

i don't get it


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## dawg2 (Apr 25, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> ... allow things or make them happen?


Both.


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

look, i know where this will end up: "god is not constrained by time or logic.  If he wills it to be so then that's how it is". All the explanations I read were circular in there reasoning.

I was hoping for something fresh.


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## dawg2 (Apr 25, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> look, i know where this will end up: "god is not constrained by time or logic.  If he wills it to be so then that's how it is". All the explanations I read were circular in there reasoning.
> 
> I was hoping for something fresh.



There is nothing fresh.  It is what it is.  The longer you sit there trying to match wits against God, the quicker and more confused it gets.  It is called Faith.  You have to trust in Him, and believe.


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## redneckcamo (Apr 25, 2008)

*Bingo!*



dawg2 said:


> There is nothing fresh.  It is what it is.  The longer you sit there trying to match wits against God, the quicker and more confused it gets.  It is called Faith.  You have to trust in Him, and believe.


FAITH  ! AN NOT RATIONALIZATION .......


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## dawg2 (Apr 25, 2008)

redneckcamo said:


> FAITH  ! AN NOT RATIONALIZATION .......



Exactly.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 25, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> So if god is omnipotent (all knowing), can there still be free will?
> 
> Sorry Tex,  this one's been a burr under my saddle forever.



I think the presbyterians have the quota on predestination and the Baptish on free will. 

A study of the life of civil war General Jackson is a good place for a case study on the resolution between free will and predestination. For the General like other presbyterians there was no abivalence concerning  the subject. He was a man of robust faith  which included  belief in predestination which made him fearless, regardless of the actions he took;Which did not stop him to the exercice of his free will and do against greater odds,  famous and remarkable feats.

One thing I know is that God is all knowing as far a wisdom is concerned. I also think that there might be a case whereby some are "called" by Him as it is stated in scripture. I also believe that human being are endowed with free will and how this comes out in the total picture God knows.  Yet God is a spirit and we have or have not the will to follow, be deciples, and gain of his blessings.


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## mens ex machina (Apr 25, 2008)

"Omniscient" means "all knowing." Something with perfect omniscience would know everything, including the future. God would have known that Eve would eat the apple.


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> There is nothing fresh.  It is what it is.  The longer you sit there trying to match wits against God, the quicker and more confused it gets.  It is called Faith.  You have to trust in Him, and believe.




i'm not matching wits with god.  i thought someone might have a new way of reconciling what appears to be a contradiction.  i'm taking the words and principles set forth: omniscient, omnipotent and free will, and seeing if anybody can make them work together in a sensible way.


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## kurt aquino (Apr 25, 2008)

mens ex machina said:


> "Omniscient" means "all knowing." Something with perfect omniscience would know everything, including the future. God would have known that Eve would eat the apple.



so negative on the free will, right?


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## fishbum2000 (Apr 26, 2008)

the way i see it God knows what you will do before you are born. He can make you follow his will if He wants to. a good example of that would be jona. He knew jona would run so He put a storm in place to scare the boat captin and crewmen, but He also made sure jona had a ride (the whale). 
on the other hand even thought He knew Eve would eat the apple but He allowed it, and then went to His back up plan.
i guess the easiest way i can describe it in human terms is this: lets say you are planning to go deep sea fishing for a week, but just before you trip date you find out there is a hurricane off shore. you know its going to happen so even you had plans you now change them to accomodate the situation as it has arived. this is kind of what God does only on a much bigger scale.


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## kurt aquino (Apr 26, 2008)

fishbum2000 said:


> He knew Eve would eat the apple but He allowed it, and then went to His back up plan.



i don't think the word "allowed" can be used in this situation.
if he knew she was going to eat the apple, then there was no alternative.  there is no back up plan because there are no surprises.


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## kw5891 (Apr 26, 2008)

*will*

created in God image are we saying that God knew adam & eve were going to fail ? does this mean the devil pull a quick one on God ?  to say God knew adam & eve were going to fail  does not say much for God image  they fail ? but free will comes with choices .God said you can have all this but dont touch this tree .sir free will was giving to adam & eve at that moment  plus the bible does not say apple . so i think God created us to worship him  not on a string . p s God will allow what you allow sorry ps i do not beleve for a seound God knew adam & eve would fail remember we were created in his image so if he knew then we are saying he also fail God give us free will to make choice   so i do not beleve God know what you are going to do  sorry we as a body of christ today say o God knew i was going to beat my wife  hurt kids not true o God knew i was going to be gay  wrong just because God allow does not mean he approve  free will to go to heaven or hot place amen


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## dkang37 (Apr 26, 2008)

God is all knowing. Therefore, he knows every decision we will make. He STILL gives us the free will to make our own decisions. He just already knows all the answers. Not all that confusing to me.


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## PJason (Apr 26, 2008)

Farmasis has no free will so he can only answer in oneway


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## farmasis (Apr 26, 2008)

Not only did God know that man would fall, I believe he knew before he formed man that he would have to send his son to die for them. Likewise the son knew what he would endure to save what was lost. I think that is why it is stated in Genesis, "Shall we make man in our image?" 
Why would God do that? I can only guess, but it seems he wanted a creation to love and serve Him and to love someone you have to choose to do so.
Predestination is only God's foreknowledge. He knows everything. He knows the decisions that we will make, but like stated, it doesn't change our decisions. To simplify, let's say you ask your child to choose between raw broccoli and ice cream for dessert. You are pretty sure what the child will decide. Of course God definately knows and the choice is not that obvious.
God can and has removed free will to serve His purpose. This is supported by the fact that he loved (accepted) Jacob and hated (rejected) Esau. (Malachi 1:2-3). He rejected him before he was born and able to do any evil. (Romans 9:13). God had a purpose in Esau to give way to the Edomites that would populate Palestine and to Jacob that would give lineage to modern day Jews. It is part of his plan to reconile his first chosen people, the Jews, back to himself through tribulation because he knew that they would reject his other plan of salvation, the sacrificial death of Jesus. Did Judas have a choice? I don't know, but maybe not.
Well, that is the way I see it.


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## farmasis (Apr 26, 2008)

PJason said:


> Farmasis has no free will so he can only answer in oneway


 
Very funny.

The funny thing about free will is that it wasn't free.


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## PJason (Apr 26, 2008)

farmasis said:


> The funny thing about free will is that it wasn't free.



Very true


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## PJason (Apr 26, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Very funny.



I saw that you were posting and I could not help myself. I guess you could say it was against my will.


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## kurt aquino (Apr 26, 2008)

so he knows if im gonna eat the broccoli or the ice cream?  so there is no uncertainty in the outcome?  where is the choice?


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## kurt aquino (Apr 26, 2008)

kw5891 said:


> are we saying that God knew adam & eve were going to fail ? does this mean the devil pull a quick one on God ?
> 
> He knows everything right?  There are no surprises (quick ones).  If god is in control of everything, does that include the devil?


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## dawg2 (Apr 26, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> i don't think the word "allowed" can be used in this situation.
> if he knew she was going to eat the apple, then there was no alternative.  there is no back up plan because there are no surprises.



Yes, "allowed" is appropriate.  If you play a game with your child, let's say chess or with a newbie.  You KNOW you can win but say you ALLOW them to move a piece instead of blocking or taking it, or you ALLOW them to win, even though you may have a chess skill level 100 times better.


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## kurt aquino (Apr 26, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Yes, "allowed" is appropriate.  If you play a game with your child, let's say chess or with a newbie.  You KNOW you can win but say you ALLOW them to move a piece instead of blocking or taking it, or you ALLOW them to win, even though you may have a chess skill level 100 times better.




yes, but I don't know, with no uncertainty what move the child will make or if he is gonna smash up the board or pee his pants cause i'm not all knowing.  

wiggle your finger.  Did god know you were gonna do that? did you have a choice.  if you didn't wiggle your finger, did god know you weren't gonna? did you have a choice then?


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## Israel (Apr 26, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> kw5891 said:
> 
> 
> > are we saying that God knew adam & eve were going to fail ? does this mean the devil pull a quick one on God ?
> ...


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## PWalls (Apr 26, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Him "knowing" does not eliminate your decision making process.



This post by the fireant summed it up quite well and answered the question perfectly.


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## mens ex machina (Apr 26, 2008)

kw5891 said:


> created in God image are we saying that God knew adam & eve were going to fail ? does this mean the devil pull a quick one on God ?


The snake in the garden was not the devil. It was just a snake. The devil does not appear in the Old Testament at all. In Job, the correct translation for the guy who asked God if he could mess around with Job is "the accuser." Not "Satan." Christians got the idea for the devil after encountering the Zoroasters, whose faith includes a good god and an evil god who do battle all the time, and man is the battlefield.


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## PWalls (Apr 26, 2008)

mens ex machina said:


> The snake in the garden was not the devil. It was just a snake. The devil does not appear in the Old Testament at all. In Job, the correct translation for the guy who asked God if he could mess around with Job is "the accuser." Not "Satan." Christians got the idea for the devil after encountering the Zoroasters, whose faith includes a good god and an evil god who do battle all the time, and man is the battlefield.


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## mens ex machina (Apr 26, 2008)

PWalls said:


>


Try reading a book sometime.


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## jason4445 (Apr 26, 2008)

I have always believed that both predestination and free will are present in one’s life.  Fifty percent of what happens to you is by fate, or God‘s plan or however you want to put it, and fifty percent of what you experience is by the decisions you make in life.  I also believe that no matter what religion or faith you are, if you follow God’s Doctrine of Love, (which is said in every religion in one way or the other) “Do unto others as you would have them do to you” then by far more happy and positive influences fate brings to your life, the less you follow the Doctrine of Love, then the more negative things will befall you.

In my discussions over the years with others I have noticed, generally,  the more educated and affluent tend to believe more in free will.  They say that God has blessed me, but it is through my work, and effort that I am the success I am today.  God helped me, but my success is from the fruit of my labors.  Whether or not I am successful or not depends upon me and not God.

But the less educated and less affluent tend to believe that God is in control of everything.  The reason I have suffered and had conflict is because in my soul’s trip through life God has put obstacles in my path to test me which has caused me to make mistakes so I can learn from them.  In other words, my lack of success in life is not my fault, it is just what God has planned for me.

You also see this in other ways.  In the more affluent neighborhoods, when poor things happen like money troubles or divorce, you tend to have a lot of suicides.  People depressed because they blame themselves for their misfortune.  Then when this depression turns to violence they turn if against themselves.

Where as in poorer, less educated neighborhoods, you see more murders.  Those here who experience troubles tend to blame others for their misfortunes instead of themselves, so when it gets to the point of violence they direct it to others instead of themselves.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 26, 2008)

PWalls said:


>



Ye laughet at wisdom! Spirituality has two basic components: God and man. The spiritual history of man is to be laughed at? How can one serve a ghost?


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## kurt aquino (Apr 26, 2008)

jason4445 said:


> I have always believed that both predestination and free will are present in one’s life.  Fifty percent of what happens to you is by fate, or God‘s plan or however you want to put it, and fifty percent of what you experience is by the decisions you make in life.




50% or 49% 0r 37.6541684841484%.

if 100% the course of history is known to god, then what part was a surprise?


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## kurt aquino (Apr 26, 2008)

gordon 2 said:


> Ye laughet at wisdom! Spirituality has two basic components: God and man. The spiritual history of man is to be laughed at? How can one serve a ghost?



why would ye laugh at wisdom?


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## kurt aquino (Apr 26, 2008)

is god in control of everything? including satan?


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## fishbum2000 (Apr 26, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> i don't think the word "allowed" can be used in this situation.
> if he knew she was going to eat the apple, then there was no alternative.  there is no back up plan because there are no surprises.



God could stop it if he wanted to



kurt aquino said:


> so he knows if im gonna eat the broccoli or the ice cream?  so there is no uncertainty in the outcome?  where is the choice?


God knows what you will do but you dont, therefore its still your choice



kurt aquino said:


> kw5891 said:
> 
> 
> > He knows everything right?  There are no surprises (quick ones).  If god is in control of everything, does that include the devil?
> ...


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## kurt aquino (Apr 26, 2008)

fishbum2000 said:


> God could stop it if he wanted to
> 
> 
> God knows what you will do but you dont, therefore its still your choice
> ...


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## kurt aquino (Apr 26, 2008)

I think the legal term is: complicit.


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## kw5891 (Apr 26, 2008)

mens ex machina said:


> The snake in the garden was not the devil. It was just a snake. The devil does not appear in the Old Testament at all. In Job, the correct translation for the guy who asked God if he could mess around with Job is "the accuser." Not "Satan." Christians got the idea for the devil after encountering the Zoroasters, whose faith includes a good god and an evil god who do battle all the time, and man is the battlefield.


sorry but who got kicked out of heaven with some of his friends


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## Israel (Apr 26, 2008)

H7854
שׂטן
śâṭân
saw-tawn'
From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand.


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## jmharris23 (Apr 26, 2008)

mens ex machina said:


> Try reading a book sometime.



We've read one. Its called the Holy Bible


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## dawg2 (Apr 26, 2008)

kw5891 said:


> sorry but who got kicked out of heaven with some of his friends



The minister of music.


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## dawg2 (Apr 26, 2008)

PWalls said:


> This post by the fireant summed it up quite well and answered the question perfectly.



One of many...


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## dawg2 (Apr 26, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> yes, but I don't know, with no uncertainty what move the child will make or if he is gonna smash up the board or pee his pants cause i'm not all knowing.  I agree, it was merely a 100,000 foot view / analogy.
> 
> wiggle your finger.
> Did god know you were gonna do that?YES
> ...



YES!


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## dawg2 (Apr 26, 2008)

mens ex machina said:


> The snake in the garden was not the devil. It was just a snake. The devil does not appear in the Old Testament at all. In Job, the correct translation for the guy who asked God if he could mess around with Job is "the accuser." Not "Satan." Christians got the idea for the devil after encountering the Zoroasters, whose faith includes a good god and an evil god who do battle all the time, and man is the battlefield.


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## dawg2 (Apr 26, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> is god in control of everything? including satan?



Scratching on blasphemy there....


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## fishbum2000 (Apr 26, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> In legal terms, he is guilty by association because he could have prevented it but he didn't.  That will still get you in jail.



your joking right.....
the Lord says "the heavens are my throne and the earth is my footstool what house will you build that will contain Me?"
the accuser couldnt even keep peter in jail. of course God is in jail and in the hospitol and in the grocery, in the church, and like it or not he may even be in your house.
the only legal terms He accepts are His laws, He gave them and He will surley uphold them, however He is a gentleman who wont force Himself on anyone. He wants us to love and worship Him of our own free will, what joy is there in forcing us to do this? there would be none for us or Him


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## kurt aquino (Apr 26, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Scratching on blasphemy there....




i don't know the answer. just asking questions


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## kurt aquino (Apr 26, 2008)

fishbum2000 said:


> He is a gentleman who wont force Himself on anyone. He wants us to love and worship Him of our own free will, what joy is there in forcing us to do this? there would be none for us or Him




i wouldn't presume to know what his motives are.


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## kurt aquino (Apr 26, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Scratching on blasphemy there....



is this what happens if you ask the wrong question?:


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## kurt aquino (Apr 26, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> is this what happens if you ask the wrong question?:



not very compassionate....


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## mens ex machina (Apr 27, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> We've read one. Its called the Holy Bible


Try reading _another_ book.


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## justthinking (Apr 27, 2008)

Do you see God as an all knowing Taskmaster or an all loving Father? 

What is the Word of God - a book of stories to give a crutch to the weak or helpless or an unforgettable love letter from a Father to a child? 

My Father is the only Creator who can take my life's mess of broken shards and still create a beautiful mosaic out of them. And I rest in knowing that even though He is the abolute perfect Guide through this life, and that the Word is His living Guidebook -- all of the wrong decisions on my part - all my mess -- is still salvagable by my loving Father. That through it all, He still loves me and is still teaching me and forming me into the likeness of His perfect Son.

He is the vine, I am a mere branch - and one that is grafted in, at that! If I abide in Him - even though He prunes me back, I abide in knowing that He knows what He is doing to help me to bear more fruit - all for His glory. Does not the vinedresser get the glory for producing the choicest fruit, for having the best vineyard? Certainly He does! He did the shaping, the pruning to get those results.

Vinedresser - branch. 
Potter - clay. 
Farmer - seed. 
Master - servant. 
God - friend.

John 15 
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search= John  15;&version=49;


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## dawg2 (Apr 27, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> not very compassionate....



Sorry I forget to add a  after the    Because I was just kidding.  If God was not more powerful than Satan, then Satan would be in Heaven.  Instead he was cast out.

My point was that some consider it blasphemous to imply that God is not "All Powerful."


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## ambush80 (Apr 27, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Sorry I forget to add a  after the    Because I was just kidding.  If God was not more powerful than Satan, then Satan would be in Heaven.  Instead he was cast out.
> 
> My point was that some consider it blasphemous to imply that God is not "All Powerful."




God knew he was going to throw out Satan before he did it.
God made Satan and he can make him do whatever he wants.


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## ambush80 (Apr 27, 2008)

He knows everything. He knows who is going to Heaven and who is going to H.E. Double hockey sticks, even before they are born.


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## ambush80 (Apr 27, 2008)

Even when evil men do unspeakable things, it is His plan. We just don't understand it because we are only the merest of humans.


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## Swampy (Apr 27, 2008)

God gave you life. He allows you to make decisions - he doesn't control them. You are given The Word and it is your decision to accept it or ignore / deny it. Because God will know what that decision will be doesn't change your will - it just means HE knows. Could He change you? Could He change your decisions? Yes. Will He? No. You are provided an opportunity to choose faith or choose rebellion and denial. In the end, that decision was YOURS, not HIS. We are always free to choose the path we take - it's just that God knows which way we're going to choose before we do it. He created you to enjoy life He gave you and to worship Him in return. He knew some (most?) would turn from that.


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## ambush80 (Apr 27, 2008)

kurt aquino said:


> Its like Goldilocks and the 3 bears.   She's not choosing to eat the porridge or sleep in the bed cause the stories already written



But she doesn't know what she's going to do so she had to DECIDE even if there wasn't any alternative to what she was going to do. That's how logic works


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## jmharris23 (Apr 27, 2008)

mens ex machina said:


> Try reading _another_ book.



I've read more books than you can possibly imagine. I may be taking you the wrong way, but if you think you are smarter than myself or other believers on here because you decided to take the scientific approach to life and throw out God since He can't be figured out through the scientific method, then bless your heart


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## dawg2 (Apr 27, 2008)

mens ex machina said:


> Try reading _another_ book.



Like what?


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## PJason (Apr 27, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> then bless your heart



1. bless your heart  

1: phrase used by Southerns to excuse themselves for speaking ill of someone else.

2: an expression of sympathy or pity.

3: a polite way to respond to an ignoramus, particularly male, who showers upon you flattering but unwanted compliments.

1: "She's as ugly as a mud-fence, bless her heart."

2: "Well, bless your heart, that must have been terrible!"

3: drunk fella: "I think you're beautiful! Even if you were ugly, I'd STILL think you were beautiful!"


----------



## z71gacowboy (Apr 27, 2008)

bible says God looks over us and ponders he way of man. you know he created us for the puspose of praising and honoring him while we "dominated" or loked after the earth. he created all this for us to control as his crowning creation....he gave us the earth. and he gave us free reign over it and he gave us free will because how much better is it to hav someone choose to serve you than forcing them into submission. God is a God of love and not much love exist when you are held against your will. I think the earth, us, and our choice to serve him is all very beautiful when it comes together in a manner pleasing to him. I see my life just fall into sync when i serve him....and ive seen it a mess when my free will chose to do things my way and not his. And yes he knows all.....look at  his position. I like to think of God looking over us and because of his vantage point he can see the forks in the road and can see where certain paths will take us...even the ones we dont choose. thats why one main point in the oldtestament is to think about your current actions and thier future consequences and the new testament has a theme of having an eternal focus.


----------



## biggtruxx (Apr 28, 2008)

i'll say this........ he takes care of me and my family..... just when i think something is gonna happen in my life that  would be devastating he pulls me through.... financially,,,,spiritually,,,, and all other ways....
so i wont think one second about rationalizing the way he works because if i did then i'd end up like you contradicting him and his works....... my god is a good god and thats all that matters to me!
he has never let me down!

praise God!


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

z71gacowboy said:


> "he gave us the earth. and he gave us free reign over it and he gave us free will"
> 
> We are subject to his master plan
> 
> ...




We think there are forks in the road.  Really there was only his master plan, from before the beginning til the after the end.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

biggtruxx said:


> i'll say this........ he takes care of me and my family..... just when i think something is gonna happen in my life that  would be devastating he pulls me through.... financially,,,,spiritually,,,, and all other ways....
> 
> he has never let me down!
> 
> praise God!




When thing go bad it was his will as well,  which we aren't in a position to interpret.


----------



## mens ex machina (Apr 28, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> I've read more books than you can possibly imagine. I may be taking you the wrong way, but if you think you are smarter than myself or other believers on here because you decided to take the scientific approach to life and throw out God since He can't be figured out through the scientific method, then bless your heart


Who said anything about science? It's historical fact that the concept of an evil force/Satan didn't rear its head in Christianity until Christians got the idea from other religions. It's not ~secret~ knowledge, anyone can read a _history_ book and find that out.


----------



## Big Texun (Apr 28, 2008)

At the risk of wasting a lot more time, I'm gonna throw 2 cents into the pot. I'm not going to throw 25 cents in like last time, cause I just don't have the time... and this topic is fully positioned in the "not solvable" realm.

Nonetheless....

In my OPINION, God gave us all free will. The relationship we have with God is, or is supposed to be, somewhat analogous to the relationship that we have with our parents... or our children have with us as their parents.

I am a parent. I was given the honor of being the best man at my son's wedding.  During the rehearsal dinner, my son and his soon-to-be-bride, sat at the far end of the table... while my wife and I sat at the other end with the bride's parents, etc. After the dinner was over, and we went home, my sister recanted how my son had gone on and on about what a positive influence I'd had on his life, how smart I was , etc etc etc. 

As you can imagine, that gave me a lot of joy because I knew his remarks were genuinely felt and unforced.

If, on the contrary, I had told my son before the dinner, "Son, if you say a lot of good things about me to impress my sister from Houston, I'll buy you a new pickup truck", his comments would have meant absolutely nothing to me... 

Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people... and, good things to happen to bad people? I can only suppose that He wants to see how we'll respond. He also wants us to learn.

Another example: My son, who by the way, is 23 years old and already has his CPA and MBA and works as an auditor for Grant Thorton... would love nothing more than for me to let him quit his job and come to work in my company. I will not let him... and won't until he's worked for a "real" company for 5-6 years. I want him to both learn and learn to appreciate.

I think both are fair analogies. God made us to give Himself pleasure. What pleasure would come if he pre-ordained us to praise Him? 

That's my 2 cents,

Big Tex


----------



## jmharris23 (Apr 28, 2008)

mens ex machina said:


> Who said anything about science? It's historical fact that the concept of an evil force/Satan didn't rear its head in Christianity until Christians got the idea from other religions. It's not ~secret~ knowledge, anyone can read a _history_ book and find that out.



Oh. my bad, I guess I have been reading the wrong history books. Well you've now convinced me to go and renounce my faith


----------



## huntmstr (Apr 28, 2008)

Big Tex gets it.  Good on ya man!


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

an all knowing God knows everyone's destiny and every thing they are going to do and the path their life is going to take. Your choices are irrelevant


----------



## Big Texun (Apr 28, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> an all knowing God knows everyone's destiny and every thing they are going to do and the path their life is going to take. Your choices are irrelevant



KA,

With all due respect, that's crap and you know it. 

Big Tex


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> and this topic is fully positioned in the "not solvable" realm.
> 
> 
> Solvable only by faith, not reason.
> ...


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> KA,
> 
> With all due respect, that's crap and you know it.
> 
> Big Tex



not by the definition of omniscient.  

there's got to be another another way to make all this fit.  But I can't reconcile the "omniscient" part with the "choice" part


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

maybe another word besides "choice" is in order since the "omniscient" part is inflexible.


----------



## farmasis (Apr 28, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> maybe another word besides "choice" is in order since the "omniscient" part is inflexible.


 

Why is it so hard for folks to understand that we have free will to make whatever choices we want, but that God knows what they will be. He is not making the choices for us. He knows what I will decide, but I get to decide. It really is not that difficult.


----------



## huntmstr (Apr 28, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Why is it so hard for folks to understand that we have free will to make whatever choices we want, but that God knows what they will be. He is not making the choices for us. He knows what I will decide, but I get to decide. It really is not that difficult.



He gets it too!


----------



## Big Texun (Apr 28, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> Solvable only by faith, not reason.



Not solvable by faith. Faith is, by definition, a theory.




ambush80 said:


> Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people... and, good things to happen to bad people?
> 
> Allow or design, as the creator of the universe and everything that happens in it?



Allow. Although, it is quite arguable that in Exodus, some bad things were by design (plagues on Egypt, etc.)



ambush80 said:


> God made us to give Himself pleasure. What pleasure would come if he pre-ordained us to praise Him?
> 
> 
> Not my place to suppose.



Then why'd you start this thread? 



ambush80 said:


> That's my 2 cents,
> 
> 
> That's worth more than 2 cents



You must work in sales. 

Big Tex


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> You must work in sales.
> 
> Big Tex



I don't sell anything. If people want it, it sells itself.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Why is it so hard for folks to understand that we have free will to make whatever choices we want, but that God knows what they will be. He is not making the choices for us. He knows what I will decide, but I get to decide. It really is not that difficult.



So, as far as we can tell (from our perspective), we are making choices since we don't know the outcome.  But in the sense that there is no alternative to the outcome already designed.....what is that called?  It seems the latter negates the former, or is that just armchair philosophy?


----------



## Big Texun (Apr 28, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Why is it so hard for folks to understand that we have free will to make whatever choices we want, but that God knows what they will be. He is not making the choices for us. He knows what I will decide, but I get to decide. It really is not that difficult.



I don't know if I'd go quite that far. I think God knows how you will decide, insofar as He possesses the power to ultimately sway your decision if you choose outside the way He wants you to choose.

Again the father / son analogy in the "here and now"; I let my children make decisions... but, if they make bad choices, I have my ways to get them to change their mind . Even still, sometimes, I just let them suffer the consequences because I think it is better for them over the long term.

Take that analogy one step further... If I am walking in the mall and I see somebody else's kid making really bad decisions... I don't go out of my way to influence it. 

2 more cents,
BT


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> Then why'd you start this thread?
> 
> 
> To see if anyone had a novel solution to the conundrum.  So far we've got a little circular reasoning mixed in with what appears to be the misunderstanding of the word "choice" (as defined by Webster. I had to look it up to make sure i was using it right.)


----------



## huntmstr (Apr 28, 2008)

Plenary indulgence?


----------



## Big Texun (Apr 28, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> I don't sell anything. If people want it, it sells itself.



Forgive me for making an inaccurate assumption. I just thought you worked in sales because you put a higher price on your "product" than it was worth. I figured you were leaving some room to negotiate.

G2G,
BT


----------



## Big Texun (Apr 28, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> I don't know if I'd go quite that far. I think God knows how you will decide, insofar as He possesses the power to ultimately sway your decision if you choose outside the way He wants you to choose.
> 
> Again the father / son analogy in the "here and now"; I let my children make decisions... but, if they make bad choices, I have my ways to get them to change their mind . Even still, sometimes, I just let them suffer the consequences because I think it is better for them over the long term.
> 
> ...



Ambush80,

Does this make sense to you? Unless you were hatched from an egg, you had a father. Did your father have a way of getting you to ultimately come around to his way of thinking?

BT


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> I think God knows how you will decide, insofar as He possesses the power to ultimately sway your decision if you choose outside the way He wants you to choose.
> 
> Sounds like he turns off the omniscience in order to be surprised when you make your choice.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> Ambush80,
> 
> Did your father have a way of getting you to ultimately come around to his way of thinking?
> 
> BT




Thankfully no. He's not big on free thinking.


----------



## Big Texun (Apr 28, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> Sounds like he turns off the omniscience in order to be surprised when you make your choice.



Am I surprised when my children make bad choices? No. Lotsa times I can see the bad decisions coming from miles away... and I'm not God.

I'm sorry to hear that your dad didn't let you make any bad decisions. That explains a lot. 

BT


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

huntmstr said:


> Plenary indulgence?



I've got no need for that.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> I'm sorry to hear that your dad didn't let you make any bad decisions. That explains a lot.
> 
> BT



There it is!!!!! Free will!!!!!  I made those decisions on my own because he could neither stop me from making them nor had prior knowledge of what I was gonna do OR the outcome


----------



## farmasis (Apr 28, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> I don't know if I'd go quite that far. I think God knows how you will decide, insofar as He possesses the power to ultimately sway your decision if you choose outside the way He wants you to choose.
> 
> Again the father / son analogy in the "here and now"; I let my children make decisions... but, if they make bad choices, I have my ways to get them to change their mind . Even still, sometimes, I just let them suffer the consequences because I think it is better for them over the long term.
> 
> ...


 
I think we may be talking about two different things. I mean the decision of your salvation. No, once you are his, he will direct your paths. We may make our own decisions and he may let us, but sometimes he will correct and put us back on his path. Sometimes his will be be accomplished even when we are doing things on our own.


----------



## farmasis (Apr 28, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> So, as far as we can tell (from our perspective), we are making choices since we don't know the outcome. But in the sense that there is no alternative to the outcome already designed.....what is that called? It seems the latter negates the former, or is that just armchair philosophy?


 

No alternative in outcome? No you have to accept him as the one true God, ask him in to your heart and ask for forgiveness of your sins. If you don't do that, you are lost. If you do, God will save you. God just knows if you will accept him and when. Nothing is being negated. One does not affect the outcome of the other.


----------



## farmasis (Apr 28, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> Big Texun said:
> 
> 
> > I think God knows how you will decide, insofar as He possesses the power to ultimately sway your decision if you choose outside the way He wants you to choose.
> ...


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

farmasis said:


> No alternative in outcome? No you have to accept him as the one true God, ask him in to your heart and ask for forgiveness of your sins. If you don't do that, you are lost. If you do, God will save you. God just knows if you will accept him and when. Nothing is being negated. One does not affect the outcome of the other.



circular


----------



## farmasis (Apr 28, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> circular


 
(sigh)


----------



## Big Texun (Apr 28, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> There it is!!!!! Free will!!!!!  I made those decisions on my own because he could neither stop me from making them nor had prior knowledge of what I was gonna do OR the outcome



With all due respect, if you are a father yourself, I hope you make the "free choice" to take a different tack. ?

BT


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

farmasis said:


> (sigh)



You keep saying: "it's true because it's the truth". See the examples of circular reasoning here:  

http://ksuweb.kennesaw.edu/~shagin/logfal-pbc-circular.htm

Are we gonna try to think this through or not?


----------



## Big Texun (Apr 28, 2008)

farmasis said:


> I think we may be talking about two different things. I mean the decision of your salvation. No, once you are his, he will direct your paths. We may make our own decisions and he may let us, but sometimes he will correct and put us back on his path. Sometimes his will be be accomplished even when we are doing things on our own.



I think we are talking about two different things too.

Nonetheless, I don't subscribe to the belief that salvation is pre-ordained. I know many Godly and well studied men that do. I respect them and their beliefs. I also know at least as many other Godly and well studied men that don't. I respect them and their beliefs also.

I see it as 6 one way, 1/2 dozen the other... and since I think that it is potentially counter-productive to assume pre-ordained salvation... I lean towards the side that says it isn't. 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Big Tex


----------



## PWalls (Apr 28, 2008)

Foreknowledge does not cancel out free will.

The opposite of free will is no will. If you think there is no such thing as free will, then that means you must believe there is no will  involved in any decision you make. That means you are a robot or a puppet with someone else fully controlling you.

I "know" and have "foreknowledge" that my dog will eat a steak if I put it in front of her nose. However, I do not make her eat that steak. She still has a choice to make. She decides to eat it and confirm my knowledge or she decides to walk away and amaze me. Even if I don't feed her for three days before I put that steak down and I know 100% that she will eat it, she still has to make the choice to eat it.

Foreknowledge does not override free will.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Foreknowledge does not cancel out free will.
> 
> The opposite of free will is no will. If you think there is no such thing as free will, then that means you must believe there is no will  involved in any decision you make. That means you are a robot or a puppet with someone else fully controlling you.
> 
> ...



You don't know like God supposedly knows what your dog is gonna do.  Remember, in omniscience, there are no surprises.   You don't have omniscience. God does.

If I were to accept a god with omniscience,  I would have accept the the absence of free will.  I think it may be something else going on.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

Big Texun;2134533

I see it as 6 one way said:
			
		

> Can you give me an example of why it is counter-productive to assume pre-destination?  Seems either way your job is to row your boat the best way you know how.  It doesn't excuse you from being a bad person.


----------



## Big Texun (Apr 28, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> Can you give me an example of why it is counter-productive to assume pre-destination?  Seems either way your job is to row your boat the best way you know how.  It doesn't excuse you from being a bad person.




Examples are easy. Lets say someone is preparing to go on a mission trip to Haiti. They need financial support to pay for airfare. Maybe they need people to donate shoes to give to orphans. Who knows what they need... but, they need help. The main goal of their trip is to witness to the lost.

I think that if a person is totally bought in to the concept of pre-destination, it makes it easier to think, "Why should I help? The Lord already knows who is getting saved... and they'll get saved whether I open my checkbook or not."

Now, I'm not suggesting that this happens... because in my experience, people that even know what pre-destination is all about... are pretty mature believers... and they know that they should help anyway. 

I also think that the notion of pre-destination can potentially create one of two unhealthy responses: a). a feeling of superiority (eg: God loves me but he doesn't love you) or b). God didn't choose me, I have no hope.

My mantra is, "Keep the main thing the main thing." The topic of pre-destination is way way way way down on the "main thing" list. 

Big Tex


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

Woodswalker said:


> can anyone besides us Christians engage in hunting animals and using them for food, or is it just us Christians?




It's actually a hard question, if you don't buy in to the idea of appointed dominion over the animal kingdom or follow the: "of these ye may eat....." line of thinking.  For me, on the whole, it feels OK so far.  I'm still working out the moral kinks on the subject.

Ya hijacker


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2008)

Woodswalker said:


> that is to say, if God has a plan, it'll happen. or, said another way, the planning occured, and now for the implementation.
> 
> or, in the worst case, God will have his way, no question.
> 
> ...


----------



## PWalls (Apr 28, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> You don't know like God supposedly knows what your dog is gonna do.  Remember, in omniscience, there are no surprises.   You don't have omniscience. God does.
> 
> If I were to accept a god with omniscience,  I would have accept the the absence of free will.  I think it may be something else going on.



Just because He knows doesn't mean that He makes you do it. A robot or a puppet are "controlled". Omniscience is not controlling. It is knowing. There is a difference.

Honestly, this is so simple. It is amazing that we are on the third page and people are still not understanding that simple fact.


----------



## Big Texun (Apr 29, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Honestly, this is so simple. It is amazing that we are on the third page and people are still not understanding that simple fact.



PWalls, I think it is just some chain jerking. One might go so far as to say mocking.

Since Woodswalker likes to talk about the good ole days... we used to say, "You can lead a horse to water but, you cannot make him drink." Fairly well sums it up I think.

In this context, some of the "horses" drink the water, some don't, and some think it is the most hilarious sight they've ever seen.

Sad reality is, it may be a long time until they get to the next waterhole. Even ole' jigs knew that! 

Big Tex


----------



## dawg2 (Apr 29, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> ....
> Sad reality is, it may be a long time until they get to the next waterhole. Even ole' jigs knew that!
> 
> Big Tex



That is the truth.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 29, 2008)

Woodswalker said:


> seems like everything has turned into sport, and no other redeeming social value whatsoever?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Because the "new way" of doing things (and the "old way") can't be kept in a fence.  It will eventually leak out into the  public in the form of political opinion, politics, our relationship to each other as human beings...
This forum IS the fenced area, where we hopefully train the beast to play well with others, not bite, not poop in the house.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 29, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> PWalls, I think it is just some chain jerking. One might go so far as to say mocking.
> 
> Since Woodswalker likes to talk about the good ole days... we used to say, "You can lead a horse to water but, you cannot make him drink." Fairly well sums it up I think.
> 
> ...




These are serious questions. This is not mere needling.  We just met, Tex, and I know that it's difficult to sense my tone through the screen, but I'm serious as a heart attack about this issue. If I can get a straight answer (not circular and not "because it says so", It'll be one less reason for me to be concerned about the goings on in your camp, because the smoke from your camp blows into mine and everyone elses. The ramifications of the answers we come up with have serious consequences.

"Water" is a loaded metaphor for what you are referring to (faith, scripture....am i right?").  We need water to survive.  We don't need "Water" to survive. What if you replace "water" with "knowledge". Not so cute anymore.


----------



## Big Texun (Apr 29, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> These are serious questions. This is not mere needling.  We just met, Tex, and I know that it's difficult to sense my tone through the screen, but I'm serious as a heart attack about this issue. If I can get a straight answer (not circular and not "because it says so", It'll be one less reason for me to be concerned about the goings on in your camp, because the smoke from your camp blows into mine and everyone elses. The ramifications of the answers we come up with have serious consequences.
> 
> "Water" is a loaded metaphor for what you are referring to (faith, scripture....am i right?").  We need water to survive.  We don't need "Water" to survive. What if you replace "water" with "knowledge". Not so cute anymore.



Ambush80,

Water is a loaded metaphor for eternal life... a ticket to heaven, if you will.

I am totally fine with replacing the word "knowledge" into the exact same sentence. I do not find it even remotely offensive. I am a scientist, an inventor, a founder of a company... how could I possibly consider "knowledge" to be uncute or offensive?

We've had this discussion before, much of what you consider knowledge, I consider theory. I have, like you, studied the theories. After my rather exhaustive review of the prevailing theories, I have concluded that they are not rational. Your repeated efforts to convince me otherwise, are... well, they are becoming circular.

I have the answer you are seeking but, as long as you DEMAND a mathematical proof, you will never find it. Not from me, not from Billy Graham, and not from any of today's students of Darwin.

In the above, you made one statement that is accurately sobering. To wit: "The ramifications of the answers we come up with have serious consequences." You, my dear new friend, are more right about that than you'd probably like to know. I suspect that, if you were totally honest with yourself, you'd have to admit that "the smoke that is blowing from our camp" is only offensive because it makes you very nervous, even if only on a subconscious level. It should. You are betting everything. If you win, you've won nothing. If you lose, you've lost it all. From where I sit, that is a very irrational bet.

Sorry if I sound circular,
Big Tex


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 29, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> In the above, you made one statement that is accurately sobering. To wit: "The ramifications of the answers we come up with have serious consequences." You, my dear new friend, are more right about that than you'd probably like to know. I suspect that, if you were totally honest with yourself, you'd have to admit that "the smoke that is blowing from our camp" is only offensive because it makes you very nervous, even if only on a subconscious level. It should. You are betting everything. If you win, you've won nothing. If you lose, you've lost it all. From where I sit, that is a very irrational bet.
> 
> Sorry if I sound circular,
> 
> ...


----------



## Big Texun (Apr 29, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> If i win my bet, I will have been able to live my life with an open mind, free of the limitations of doctrine. I will have been able to make decisions based on a thoughtful process, unlimited by fear of supernatural consequence.  I will live as though my life is a blank slate, not feeling as though I started out guilty.



What limitations of doctrine do you perceive are binding me? Do you think that I am required to handle snakes or wear funny underwear?  Do you think I cower in fear that I'll be struck by lightning if I open a scientific journal? If so, you are dead wrong. The simple truth is, I'm having every bit as much fun as you are; probably a lot more. 



ambush80 said:


> If I'm wrong, well then that's was my penalty for trying to figure out how and why to be a good person.I personally wouldn't wish eternal ****ation on the worst person I know.



I don't wish eternal ****ation on the worst person I know OF (Brian Nichols springs to mind).  Problem is, the answer you seek is just too simple. People like things to be hard; this isn't. There is elegance in simplicity. Sadly, someone like Brian Nichols is probably closer to finding the answer than you. He knows he needs forgiveness - you don't.




ambush80 said:


> Besides, my subconscious has been influenced by my years of being socialized in a basically spiritually homogenous culture. It takes great diligence to recognize when some of my thoughts aren't my own, and haven't been derived at by a process of contemplation.  It's them contemplation muscles that get exercised in a forum like this.



My only job is to show you the "water". My job is not to make you drink it. You aren't thirsy? Okay by me, I've done my job.  However, if your life plays out like most, the odds of you finding yourself in a seemingly helpless situation some day are high. Who knows what it will be: a very sick child, a wife injured severely in a car wreck... just the bad stuff that happens to people in life. When that happens, swallow your pride and give me a call. You'll be more open to the answer then.

Oh, by the way, that answer will not bind you to a bunch of bureacratic doctrine. It will do exactly the opposite.

Toodles for now,
Big Tex


----------



## farmasis (Apr 29, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> I think we are talking about two different things too.
> 
> Nonetheless, I don't subscribe to the belief that salvation is pre-ordained. I know many Godly and well studied men that do. I respect them and their beliefs. I also know at least as many other Godly and well studied men that don't. I respect them and their beliefs also.


 
I think we are in agreement. I do not believe in unconditional election.


----------



## farmasis (Apr 29, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> You keep saying: "it's true because it's the truth". See the examples of circular reasoning here:
> 
> http://ksuweb.kennesaw.edu/~shagin/logfal-pbc-circular.htm
> 
> Are we gonna try to think this through or not?


 
I don't remember saying that.

I am saying they are independent of each other and both can happen at the same time and have given an example of how that is possible in our real life.

The only one going in circles is you, IMO.


----------



## Randy (Apr 29, 2008)

I believe there is free will but I do not believe God knows what choices we will make.  He knows them as soon as we do but I do not believe that 100 billion years ago he knew what I was going to do today.


----------



## Big Texun (Apr 29, 2008)

Randy said:


> I believe there is free will but I do not believe God knows what choices we will make.  He knows them as soon as we do but I do not believe that 100 billion years ago he knew what I was going to do today.



I think it is a matter of semantics. To wit: Does it really make a difference one way or another?

In my book, the answer is clear: Nope.

Big Tex


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## farmasis (Apr 29, 2008)

Randy said:


> I believe there is free will but I do not believe God knows what choices we will make. He knows them as soon as we do but I do not believe that 100 billion years ago he knew what I was going to do today.


 
Possibily, but the Bible says:
Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (Psalms 139:16)

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations. (Jeremiah 1:5)

But like Big Tex says, it is minor in the grand scheme of things.


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## redwards (Apr 29, 2008)

Kurt,
Don't know where you have disappeared to, but since
ambush80
seems to have picked up where you left off, I'll direct my answer to him.

Yes, I believe God does allow us free will.

I point you to just one example of free will in God's word.

Read II Samuel 24, focusing particularly on verses 11-25. 
You may note that God specifically directed the prophet Gad to give 3 choices to King David. 
However, King David made a choice that was not included in the three he was given.

Why did King David make the choice he made? 
You can probably find the answer to this question in verse 14.

Does it seem strange to you that King David would rather be in the hand of the Lord than man? 
It does not to me.

As to God's Omniscience. 
What was the punishment God sent? Hint, see verse 15. 
Turns out it was one of the three choices originally given to King David, right?

But King David didn't choose it did he!

Why did God choose that particular punishment?

Maybe because it was a punishment that was not directly upon King David, but upon all the people in King David's kingdom. 
And maybe God knew that in King David's heart, he (King David) could not stand to see others suffer for his sin;therefore, he repented of his sin. 

I don't know for certain that is the reason, but God surely does know His reason(s).

At any rate, King David gave offerings, and prayed to God, didn't he! 
And God withheld the plague from the land of Israel, didn't He!

You may believe that to be circular reasoning, but I surely do not.

Be Blessed,
Ralph


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## Randy (Apr 30, 2008)

Big Texun said:


> I think it is a matter of semantics. To wit: Does it really make a difference one way or another?
> 
> In my book, the answer is clear: Nope.
> 
> Big Tex



Maybe, but many christians say if you do not believe God knows everything that will happen then you do not believe in God and are doomed.


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## Randy (Apr 30, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Possibily, but the Bible says:
> Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (Psalms 139:16)
> 
> Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations. (Jeremiah 1:5)
> ...



When I read those texts NOTHING in them says to me "I know what you will do throughout your life even before you make the decission."  In fact it is quite the opposite, "I have appointed you a prophet to the nations" to me means that is what I intend for your to do.  How many really are prophets?


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## Big Texun (Apr 30, 2008)

Randy said:


> Maybe, but many christians say if you do not believe God knows everything that will happen then you do not believe in God and are doomed.



That's why you don't listen to all Christians. 

Seriously, the world has more than its share of Christians that wish to judge, condemn, and declare themselves "Holier than Thou." Their intentions are, in most cases, wonderful. Their actions are, from a biblical sense, reprehensible.

Look at what Jesus had to say about the Pharisees, who were the religious "icons" in His day. Jesus did not say, "You boys have done good by working so hard to memorize and follow all of God's laws." Quite the contrary.

In my book, the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing. Jesus is the main thing. Study His teachings when He walked on earth. Use them as your filter. 

Happy Trails,
Big Tex


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## farmasis (Apr 30, 2008)

Randy said:


> When I read those texts NOTHING in them says to me "I know what you will do throughout your life even before you make the decission." In fact it is quite the opposite, "I have appointed you a prophet to the nations" to me means that is what I intend for your to do. How many really are prophets?


 
Like I said, we have free will, but God also has his will. His will will be accomplished. If he had set Jeremiah out to be a prophet before he was born, Jeremiah did not have a choice otherwise. My comments were not on the topic of free will, however. They were to the statement made that God does not know what we are going to do.

I will concede to Matthew Henry's commentary of this verse and the ones that surround it:

Psalms 139

God has perfect knowledge of us, and all our thoughts and actions are open before him. It is more profitable to meditate on Divine truths, applying them to our own cases, and with hearts lifted to God in prayer, than with a curious or disputing frame of mind. That God knows all things, is omniscient; that he is every where, is omnipresent; are truths acknowledged by all, yet they are seldom rightly believed in by mankind. God takes strict notice of every step we take, every right step and every by step. He knows what rule we walk by, what end we walk toward, what company we walk with. When I am withdrawn from all company, thou knowest what I have in my heart. There is not a vain word, not a good word, but thou knowest from what thought it came, and with what design it was uttered. Wherever we are, we are under the eye and hand of God. We cannot by searching find how God searches us out; nor do we know how we are known. Such thoughts should restrain us from sin.

Jeremiah 1:5
That before he was born, even in his eternal counsel, he had designed him to be so. Let him know that he who gave him his commission is the same that gave him his being, that _formed him in the belly_ and brought him _forth out of the womb,_ that therefore he was his rightful owner and might employ him and make use of him as he pleased, and that this commission was given him in pursuance of the purpose God had purposed in himself concerning him, before he was born: _"I knew thee, and I sanctified thee,''_ that is, "I determined that thou shouldst be a prophet and set thee apart for the office.'' Thus St. Paul says of himself that God had _separated him from his mother's womb_ to be a Christian and an apostle, Gal. 1:15. Observe, (1.) The great Creator knows what use to make of every man before he makes him. He has _made all for himself,_ and of the same lumps of clay designs _a vessel of honour or dishonour,_ as he pleases, Rom. 9:21. (2.) What God has designed men for he will call them to; for his purposes cannot be frustrated. Known unto God are all his own works beforehand, and his knowledge is infallible and his purpose unchangeable. (3.) There is a particular purpose and providence of God conversant about his prophets and ministers; they are by special counsel designed for their work, and what they are designed for they are fitted for: I that _knew thee, sanctified thee._ God destines them to it, and forms them for it, when he first forms the spirit of man within him.


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2008)

farmasis said:


> If he had set Jeremiah out to be a prophet before he was born, Jeremiah did not have a choice otherwise. My comments were not on the topic of free will, however. They were to the statement made that God does not know what we are going to do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Swampy (Apr 30, 2008)

Bottom line, we all gonna find out one day .... maybe we can talk about it then.


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## speechless33759 (May 1, 2008)

I think many of us are confusing omniscience with ominpotence. God knows everything...it's recorded in scripture. But because He knows everything doesn't mean we are without free will. If God forces His will on us that is no longer omniscience (all knowing) but a part of His omnipotence. However, if God forced His will on us then the He not only would be evil, but the founder of evil. How else then would sin enter the world if God ordaned everything. That would be contrary to scripture when it tells us He is holy and just.


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## ambush80 (May 2, 2008)

speechless33759 said:


> I think many of us are confusing omniscience with ominpotence. God knows everything...it's recorded in scripture. But because He knows everything doesn't mean we are without free will. If God forces His will on us that is no longer omniscience (all knowing) but a part of His omnipotence. However, if God forced His will on us then the He not only would be evil, but the founder of evil. How else then would sin enter the world if God ordaned everything. That would be contrary to scripture when it tells us He is holy and just.



Maybe he's holy and just in a way that we can't comprehend and can't place our value system on.


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## ambush80 (May 2, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Like I said, we have free will, but God also has his will. His will will be accomplished. If he had set Jeremiah out to be a prophet before he was born, Jeremiah did not have a choice otherwise. My comments were not on the topic of free will, however. They were to the statement made that God does not know what we are going to do.
> 
> I will concede to Matthew Henry's commentary of this verse and the ones that surround it:
> 
> ...



I couldn't have put it better myself. If you can live with that then more power to ya. that's faith right there.


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