# T/C Contender or Encore? Which one?



## BigJay (Mar 25, 2009)

Well,

Due to some recent posts and some awesome looking handguns, I have been looking at purchasing an Encore or Contender handgun for hunting hogs mostly, but eventually larger game out west.  

My questions are, 

1. Which handgun would be best, the Contender or the Encore in which caliber and why?

2. What are the major differences between the models?

I live in England right now and will be returning to the states soon, so going and trying one out is not going to happen right away.  I would like some knowledge before I move in to the actual trial and possible purchase.

Thanks guys and have a great Georgia day..

BigJay


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## T_Fish (Mar 25, 2009)

my next one will be the 460 s&w,, i hear thr recoil is a lil tough,, but it has alot of energy and hold up at a distance,, some of the smaller calibers shoot flatter at a distance,,  just look it over and figure out what suits you best


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## HandgunHTR (Mar 25, 2009)

Here is my take on it, and you can take it for what it is worth.

I would get an Older style Contender (not the G2).  There are a few reasons for it.

1.  The trigger is much better on the old-style Contenders.  The G2s and Encores are harder to adjust and require spring changes to truly make them better.  Now, you can get down to around 2# with the G2 and Encore, but can't go any lower.  With a pistol the trigger is one of the most important things when it comes to accurate shooting at longer distances.
2.  While the Encore can handle bigger cartridges, bigger isn't necessarily better when it comes to handguns.  For instance, I can get almost the same performance from a 7TCU in a Contender that you can get from a 7-08 in an Encore.  Why?  Because the 7-08 needs a longer barrel to burn all the powder that it needs to reach its max potential.  So, when you are talking about pistol length barrels, bigger cartridges will not perform as well.  You can get a custom Encore barrel that is 16" long and put it on a pistol frame, but then you lose the portability of having a pistol in the first place.
3.  The Encore and G2 are beefier and therefore heavier than the old-style Contender.  This makes a big difference when it comes to making an offhand shot.  Especially after carrying it around all day.

So, my recommendation to you is to get an old-style Contender with a 12-14" barrel chambered in 30-30AI, 7-30 Waters, 6.5JDJ, 309JDJ, 6.5 Bullberry, 7mm Bullberry, or similar.  Put a good 2-8X variable scope on it and you are good for anything that walks North America out to about 300 yards if you do your part.


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## bowhntr (Mar 25, 2009)

*Contender or Encore?*

From one hand gun fanatic to another ---- There like Lays potato chips you cant have just one .  Having experience hunting with a handgun out west and being limited to ranges that can be the limit of nockdown power that the contender has I would go with the Encore. My first barrel was a 14" 30-30 Contender and 25 yrs ago I didnt know what a limit was for a handgun. Now that I have both I would pull the Encore and a flat shooting barrel-round combo and not look back. (secret) New barrel coming for new project. 6.5x284 Bullberry S/S 17" having a muzzle break installed with GA Jim grip and forearm . Dont know if i'll use rifle scope or Burris 3x9 variable w/ BP reticle. Pics to com later.


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## 30-338 (Mar 25, 2009)

*Contender vs. Encore*

To me it depends on whether or not you will be reloading for the caliber you want to shoot.  If you are going to go with factory ammo, then the Encore will be the way to go.  You have a lot more choices as far as calibers because the Encore is built strong enough to handle the high pressures of the magnum calibers.  Thus, the higher weight for the encore.  With the Contender, for optimum performance, you will need a custom barrel and you will have to reload the ammo for it.  However, you can get factory ammo for a 6.8 SPC, 30-30 Win., 7-30 Waters or 375 JDJ, but in factory offerings, I do not think any of these would be suitable for big game hunting in the Western US.  I prefer the Contender mainly because I never plan to use it at more than 200 yards and I can reload several different calibers to obtain the results I want.  Use the time you have available to do the necessary research to figure out which model is best for your needs.  Good Luck!


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## atljetmech (Mar 25, 2009)

I have an older Contender and couldn't be happier with it. I have only two barrels for it:
A .223 super 14" ported and a 44MAG 14" ported. They are both equipped with scopes and both very accurate.
I have not handled/shot a newer encore or G2 so I cannot compare the two, but I can't imagine needing anymore than what the original offers...at least in my case.


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## Henpecked (Mar 25, 2009)

I recently looked in to this same question.  One other issue to consider is how the gun left the factory.  Contender's leave the factory as a handgun.  Almost all, if not all, of the Encores left the factory as a rifle.  That means you can't slap a handgun stock on the Encore without a SBR stamp unless you are willing to risk getting checked by the wrong game warden and getting run up on felony gun charges.  The case people reference with T/C that went to the Supreme Court only took Contenders in to account.  That ruling does not apply to all T/C guns, according to most of the discussion found on the internet.  T/C labels all Contenders as a handgun for this very reason.  You can put a rifle barrel on it and a rifle stock, and take it back down to a pistol.  You aren't supposed to legally do the same with an Encore.  The ATF believes this gun is supposed to stay a rifle.

Just something to consider I found while researching this same question on the internet.


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## Eddy M. (Mar 25, 2009)

HandgunHTR said:


> Here is my take on it, and you can take it for what it is worth.
> 
> I would get an Older style Contender (not the G2).  There are a few reasons for it.
> 
> ...



Depends on the round you want to shoot-- in a Contender -- 7mmTCU is a great deer round IF you reload, 7X30 Waters is GREAT love the round-I'll sell you one with a M- Brake that is LOUD but shoots GREAT- and I'll but one without a BRAKE-- my 35 remington is super and I carry it a lot----- IMO if you pick a caliber that a older contender is chambered in it is lighter to carry than the newer TC's  and usually very accurate too many options---- hope you are totally confused now


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## BigJay (Mar 26, 2009)

Thanks guys... I will do alot more research now that I am more confused then I was before..  I want to make sure I make an informed decision  but I see there are many decisions that necessarily aren't wrong....

BigJay


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## HandgunHTR (Mar 26, 2009)

Jay,

You are correct.  In this case there really isn't a "wrong" answer.

I shoot what I shoot because I am a firm believer that proper bullet placement will trump tons of energy every time.  Therefore I need a gun with a good trigger and that doesn't punish me when I pull the trigger.  The Original Contender fits that bill.

With my 6.5JDJ I would not hesitate to take a 300 yard shot at an Elk and I would be confident that it would put it down.


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## BigJay (Mar 26, 2009)

HandgunHTR,

Thank you.  I believe that shot placement is the most important part, followed closely by, Is the calibre large enough to take the game.  I do not hunt in order for my family to survive, so passing on a deer due to not being able to get the proper shot placement is fine with me.  

Thanks everyone, I am now looking for a Contender.

BigJay


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## contender* (Mar 26, 2009)

Tons of great advice here, enough to get you well into an addiction as I am.


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## HandgunHTR (Mar 26, 2009)

contender* said:


> Tons of great advice here, enough to get you well into an addiction as I am.



Ain't that the truth!

When it comes to T/C switch barrels, they are kinda like Pringles.  You can't have just one.


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## atljetmech (Mar 26, 2009)

HandgunHTR said:


> Ain't that the truth!
> 
> When it comes to T/C switch barrels, they are kinda like Pringles.  You can't have just one.



I have been looking for a good, used, reasonable 22LR bbl but have had no luck and I can't justify the coin spendeture on a new one when a new complete 22LR can be had cheaper!


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## contender* (Mar 28, 2009)

atljetmech said:


> I have been looking for a good, used, reasonable 22LR bbl but have had no luck and I can't justify the coin spendeture on a new one when a new complete 22LR can be had cheaper!



A clear example that your addiction has not progressed far enough is when the release of money gets in the way of your acquiring a barrel of your fancy.... 
I sentence you to no less than two full days of shooting, barrel changes are required..


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## tred1956 (Mar 28, 2009)

Hi,
 I own and shoot both. I like the thumpers in the Contender mainly because of my hand size. The Encore will shoot more powerful chamberings but due to the large size is uncomfortable for me. With custom barrels Contenders will out shoot most hunters capabilities anyway.  Just MHO.

Safe shooting
Doug


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## bowhntr (Mar 28, 2009)

I dont know what info someone got a hold of but the Contender  Is not sold from the factory as a handgun only!!! This is false info , all frames are designated at the factory as how they are sold -- rifle is a rifle< pistol-pistol Contender or Encore. And I have bought 2 Encore frames designated as pistol frames this is the only way you can turn a Contender or Encore from pistol to a rifle and back again. During the early 90's the factory stopped selling Contenders as pistols only. If you buy a frame and dont know what it was sold as and you change it to a rifle this could mean confiscation of the weapon. Some people in Texas had this happen to them ,they were hunting with a Contender pistol ,the game warden stopped them and did a serial number check on the frame it was a designated Contender carbine or rifle frame and they had it confiscated and almost put in jail. The only thing that saved them was the purchase reciept from the person that he bought it from. This is very important to check if you buy one from an individual. If you buy a used one from a gun shop make them call T/C and confirm the serial # and if they dont you can call and get it confirmed . If you buy one new and it has a rifle butt on it it is a rifle , if it has a pistol grip on it it is a pistol this is how the factory ships them now. The end of the box that the pistol or rifle frame comes in will have the designation on it.


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## HandgunHTR (Mar 28, 2009)

The only thing I will add to bowhntrs comments is that if you order a frame from the Custom Shop, you can have them designate it as a "Frame Only" and then designate it as "Other" on the 4473 (the new forms allow that).  If you do this then you can use it in any configuration you wish as long as you don't put a barrel that is less than 16" on a frame that has a rifle buttstock attached.


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## Henpecked (Mar 28, 2009)

bowhntr said:


> I dont know what info someone got a hold of but the Contender  Is not sold from the factory as a handgun only!!! This is false info , all frames are designated at the factory as how they are sold -- rifle is a rifle< pistol-pistol Contender or Encore. And I have bought 2 Encore frames designated as pistol frames this is the only way you can turn a Contender or Encore from pistol to a rifle and back again. During the early 90's the factory stopped selling Contenders as pistols only. If you buy a frame and dont know what it was sold as and you change it to a rifle this could mean confiscation of the weapon. Some people in Texas had this happen to them ,they were hunting with a Contender pistol ,the game warden stopped them and did a serial number check on the frame it was a designated Contender carbine or rifle frame and they had it confiscated and almost put in jail. The only thing that saved them was the purchase reciept from the person that he bought it from. This is very important to check if you buy one from an individual. If you buy a used one from a gun shop make them call T/C and confirm the serial # and if they dont you can call and get it confirmed . If you buy one new and it has a rifle butt on it it is a rifle , if it has a pistol grip on it it is a pistol this is how the factory ships them now. The end of the box that the pistol or rifle frame comes in will have the designation on it.



I suggest you call T/C and ask them how they designate a Contender.  They supposedly "designate" them all as pistols in order to protect their customers and avoid confusion.   What it 'looks' like coming out of the factory is irrelevant.  The official T/C designation as pistols is what matters.   The case on the Contender went to the Supreme Court(short note below).  

That story out of Texas sounds more than a little fishy and lacking in some significant details, or perhaps riddled with misunderstandings/misinformation from how it sounded when it was first told about 100 people ago.  A private sales receipt won't keep you out of trouble if the po-po are looking to pursue something.  

You can change ANY Contender to a rifle.  There is no law against putting a rifle stock and barrel on a Contender.

From Wikipedia:
Thompson/Center Arms and the Supreme Court

In the case of United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co. (1992), the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in the company's favor by deciding that the rifle conversion kit that Thompson sold with their pistols did not constitute a short barreled rifle under the National Firearms Act of 1934.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms contended that the mere possession of a pistol, having a barrel less than sixteen inches (406 mm) long, with a shoulder stock and rifle-length (more than sixteen inches) barrel constituted constructive intent to "make" an illegal short-barreled rifle (by combining the pistol's frame, the pistol-length barrel, and the shoulder stock).

This decision clarified the meaning of the term "make" in the National Firearms Act by stating that the pistol actually had to be assembled with a barrel less than 16 inches (410 mm) long with a stock directly attached to it to constitute a short-barrelled rifle under the National Firearms Act, and that the mere possession of components that theoretically could be assembled in an illegal configuration was not in itself a violation, as long as the components could also be assembled into legal configurations.


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## bowhntr (Mar 29, 2009)

If you have not purchased one in a while then this would prove that no frame from T/C is sold as a pistol only anymore it is designated at the factory pistol or rifle same as Encore . Another thing if you will read I did not say you could not make a rifle out of a Contender what I said is if it is sold as a pistol frame it could be changed from a pistol to a rifle and back again . If the frame comes with a stock and is designated as a rifle you can not make it a pistol whether it is a Contender or an Encore. And you can call T/C and confirm this .   Here is some info in a letter from the BATF and taken from another T/C site . The BATF letter would not come thru so there is a link to the site where the letter is printed check it out it is a good read .






























   Converting Rifles to Handguns     





   2nd Amendment Issues     






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Any way you stack it, it is technically a violation of the 1934 National Firearms Act to convert a TC from rifle configuration to handgun.

Best advice is to have one frame purchased as a handgun, dedicated to handgun use, and one frame dedicated to rifle use.
Even though the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms (BATF or "ATF") is to date apparently not prosecuting violations of this law by the TC shooting community who routinely change their Encores, Contenders, and G2s back and forth between rifle and handgun configuration, owners of TC firearms must be aware of the law and govern themselves accordingly in spite of TC's position statement regarding changing their products from one configuration to another. 

After all, it will not be TC who charges you with a crime. It will be the BATF if and when they decide to apply the law to the TC interchangeable barrel platform. 



 The "Short Barrel Rifle" Issue.
By now most everyone has gotten the word that an assembled combination of a frame, buttstock, and barrel under 16" represents a potential invitation to "The Graybar Hotel," but many shooters are oblivious to those parts of the same law that address "making" a handgun from a rifle. 

This is technically against the law! 

One can legally convert a handgun into a rifle by installing a buttstock and a barrel 16" or longer, but once it is configured as a rifle, converting it back to a handgun is "making" a handgun from a rifle. 

The "Catch 22" is there is no way to identify whether any given frame started life configured as a handgun or as a rifle, nor is there any way to know its history changing hands from one owner to the next. 

It is probably best to rely on the information from the 4473 form covering one's purchase of a frame as back up to identify what legal configuration it was. Or, when buying a frame from an individual make an honest attempt to keep it in the same last known configuration. 


Expanding on this, here is an example, courtesy of "GonHuntin," who has researched the subject extemely well.

Mike 
There should be some mention somewhere that the US Supreme Court case the TC letter (posted below) speaks of did not deal with converting contenders that left the factory in rifle configuration.....it only addressed the legality of converting a contender handgun into a rifle through the use of a "carbine kit"......TC did not offer a factory contender carbine at the time the case was filed......thus, the decision cannot be used to infer the legality of converting contenders/encores that left the factory as rifles...... 

Second, one of the best ways to get the point across is as follows: 

If you walk into your neighborhood gunshop and buy a Remington Model 7 rifle and an Encore rifle.......take them home and: 

1. take the model 7 barreled action out of the stock and place into a vice, hacksaw the barrel to less than 16" and place the action and barrel in an XP-100R handgun stock...... 

2. take the Encore rifle barrel and stock off the frame and replace them with a pistol grip and barrel less than 16" long...... 


You have committed the same federal felony of making an unregistered short barreled rifle......... 

These two items would definitely help make the issue crystal clear. 

------- end of message---------- 



A Major Problem Exists Between Thompson Center's Policy Statement Regarding Converting Handguns and Rifles Back and Forth and What The Actual Letter Of the Law Is. 

Below is a reprint of their Policy Statement. Compare this to the BATF's statement that follows it.

The following was hand entered verbatum from the policy statement sent to me by US Mail from Tim Pancurak at Thompson Center Arms Co.: 

Notice Concerning Encore/Contender Pistols and Carbines 


Thompson/Center Arms Co. went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court to establish the lawfulness of the Contender pistol and Carbine (including the carbine kit), and won. The Supreme Court opinion also establishes the legality of the Encore system, which has similar interchangeable parts. 

With these systems, a receiver may be assembled either with a pistol grip and pistol barrel, or with a shoulder stock and rifle barrrel (minimum length 16 inches). A barrel under 16 inches in length must never be assembled onto the reciever when the shoulder stock is attached. Within that parameter, the consumer may use the parts to make a pistol or carbine, and may change the configuration at will. 

In 1988, Thompson/Center filed suit against the United States alleging that the pistol and carbine kit used above do not constitute a rifle with a barrel less than 16 inches in length, a weapon made from a rifle with an overall length less than 26 inches, or a restricted "firearm" as otherwise defined in the National Firearms Act. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit and the U.S. Supreme Court agreed with Thompson/Center. Their opinions are cited as United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co., 504 U.S. 505 (1992), affirming 924 F.2d 1041 (Fed. Cir. 1991). 

In the trial court and in the Federal Circuit, the United States argued both that (1) the mere unassembled parts constituted a rifle with a barrel under 16 inches in length, and that (2) use of the receiver to assemble a pistol after a rifle had been assembled constituted making a weapon from a rifle with an overall length less than 26 inches. The Federal Circuit rejected both arguments. See 924 F.2d at 1043, citing 26 U.S.C. 5845 (a) (3) and (4). The United States abandoned the latter argument in the Supreme Court, which held generally for Thompson/Center. Accordingly, both issues (1) and (2) were decided in favor of Thompson/Center and are not now open to question. 

Thus, the sale, possession, and use of the Contender or Encore pistol and carbine as described are fully in accord with federal law. The use of these products in all of the States is likewise lawful, except that certain restrictions may apply in California. 


BATF Position Statement

If these scanned images are not readable on your screen, you may obtain them by email from mike@bellmtcs.com .












In summary, without getting into all the court decisions and logic behind both positions, it boils down to this:




Thompson Center says you can freely swap handgun and rifle parts back and forth so long as you do not combine a buttstock and a barrel less than 16" or an overall length with a buttstock under the legal 26" limit.


The BATF says you can't! 

Who are you going to believe? 

I tend to believe the one carrying the big stick with the arrest powers and suggest you do the same! 


Special Thanks to "GonHuntin" for his persistence in bringing these issues to our attention and for supplying his copy of the BATF's responses posted above. Below is a background letter from him: 


First off, Mike, I'd like to thank you for the comments you have made regarding my efforts to determine the truth about what is and is not legal to do with the Encore and Contender. 

First, a little background info so folks will know where I am coming from. I have been shooting as long as I can remember. I started loading my own shotgun ammo with a Lee Loader when I was about 10 years old. If it goes bang, I enjoy shooting it! I bought my first Contender about 16 years ago and have enjoyed collecting, shooting and hunting with them ever since that time. 

Not long after buying my first Contender, I also became interested in Title 2 firearms (commonly known as "class 3 weapons" or NFA weapons). As I researched the laws pertaining to title 2 firearms, specifically the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Gun Control Act of 1968, I also learned of the TC Supreme Court case. I read everything I could find about the case. About this same time, I was a member of the old "TC List", an e-mail discussion group centered on the TC Contender. While participating on this list, the topic of converting Contenders between rifle and pistol configuration often came up, one member even publicly reported shooting his 14" 309 JDJ Contender with a buttstock attached! These discussions also were commonplace on the various handgun forums. As I participated in these discussions, I was often attacked for mentioning the laws that prohibit the conversion of rifles into pistols. I was told that the TC court case had somehow exempted the Contender from the law, I was also told that all TCs were legally handguns despite how they left the factory, and I was told that it didn't matter how they left the factory as long as the dealer listed the firearm as a pistol when the paperwork was done. I knew that all these "explanations" were simply not true. I had actully taken the time to read and research the TC court case, and I had actually read the National Firearms Act and the Gun Control Act of 1968. 

Years went by and the discussions continued. I was called a liar, stupid and many other things that weren't quite as complimentary. Finally, in 2003, I'd had enough of those people who either didn't want to listen or chose to ignore the facts, so I decided to settle the matter once and for all. I wrote a letter to the BATF Technology Branch in Washington DC. The Technology Branch is the division of the BATF who's job is to determine the legality of firearms. They are the folks you contact when you want an answer to a legal or technical question concerning firearms and they answer the question with reference to the specific laws that apply. If you don't like their answer, the next step is to file a court action. 

The response I received from the Technology Branch confirmed what I had said all along (the original letter I wrote and the BATF response are posted on this forum and available for you to read). 

1. A firearm that left TC in rifle configuration (equipped with a buttstock) *IS* legally a rifle and is subject to all rules and regulations pertaining to rifles. 

2.It is NOT legal to convert a rifle into pistol configuration without first registering it with the BATF as a Title 2 weapon, (short barreled rifle). 

3. The legal status of a TC, whether rifle or pistol, is based on the configuration of the firearm when it leaves the factory. 

4. The legal status of a frame that left the factory with no other parts (bare frame without stock or grips) is determined by the way it is FIRST assembled. If it is first assembled as a rifle, it will always legally be a rifle, if first assembled as a pistol, it will always legally be a pistol. 

5. A dealer cannot change the legal status of a firearm by listing a rifle as a handgun on the form 4473. Listing an Encore rifle as a pistol on the 4473 does not alter the fact that it is and will always legally be a rifle. 

6. A person who buys a Contender or Encore that was illegally converted from a rifle to a pistol can be prosecuted for possession of an unregistered Title 2 weapon.....*EVEN IF THAT PERSON DID NOT KNOW THE WEAPON WAS ILLEGALLY CONVERTED*!!! (a call to TC with the serial number of the frame will determine whether it is legally a rifle or pistol) 

When presented with irrefutable facts, antagonists then often ask me how many people have been prosecuted for illegally converting a Contender or Encore or how likely is it that a person would ever get caught. My response to those questions are, "I don't know".......and that is not really the point....is it? I'm not interested in discussing the moral issue of breaking the law or the risks of getting caught, I'm interested in getting the facts out to those who are potentially at risk of committing a federal felony due to ignorance of the law. The fact is, people commit serious crimes everyday and get away with it, however, most of those people know the risks of their action but many TC owners don't! 

In the unlikely event you get caught and are prosecuted, the penalty for possession of an unregistered Title 2 weapon is up to 10 years in prison and up to $250,000 in fines. Even if you aren't convicted, it would cost a small fortune to defend yourself in court. 

Bottom line.......even if the chance of getting caught is remote, is it worth the risk when you can buy a $250 pistol frame and not worry about it? 












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## contender* (Mar 29, 2009)

bowhntr said:


> Here is some info in a letter from the BATF and taken from another T/C site .



...


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## Eddy M. (Mar 29, 2009)

atljetmech said:


> I have been looking for a good, used, reasonable 22LR bbl but have had no luck and I can't justify the coin spendeture on a new one when a new complete 22LR can be had cheaper!



There are some other sites that have lot's of tc barrels for sale- PM me if you want some web addresses   eddy


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## Davexx1 (Jul 27, 2009)

Ed's Contenders usually has a good selection of new and used TC Contender barrels, frames, and accessories.

http://www.edstc.com/

Ed is a good guy to do business with.  I ordered my 14" 7x30 Contender from him about 6 or 7 years ago.

Dave1


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