# God is in Everything!



## RealtreeRyan (Jan 25, 2011)

Hey...i am a follower of Jesus Christ, and believe in Him, that He lived a perfect life here on earth, died on the cross for all of us, rose from the dead, and reigns in Heaven at the right hand of God now and forever. He died for us all, but only those who believe by faith...since we did not see it for ourselves...and live for Him and have a daily on-going relationship with Him, will actually receive the full blessing of what He did for ALL os US! 

But what I dont understand is this! How can an individual go out into the woods or in the field to hunt or out on the water to fish, or watch all of these hunting shows on tv that show these truly amazing places and animals on earth, and not see that this world and all of its beauty is just a small reflection of its Creator. Our bodies are so complex. Nature is so delicate and yet it survives...we survive. God is in control. Look at His Creations. Next time you look at a deer and realize how smart it is...what it does to survive...how it reacts to its surroundings...think about the mind of God and how great He is to be able to keep that one deer, plus the other billions of other animals and people and just everything in complete order. 
How else could you explain this? By chance? By what? Nothing stays in order if no one is put in charge of it...this is true with every aspect of life...even for us. What then could you put in place of God that would explain how everything is kept in order? NOTHING!!!


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

If we keep your entire argument and just change the name of the god would you still find it convincing? You see perfect order because you are looking at a very small slice of reality. When a volcano erupts and incinerates that beautiful deer do you see order? When a child slowly wastes away from leukemia or starves due to drought in their country is that part of your Gods perfect order? How about a tsunami that wipes out a couple hundred thousand people in one blow? Or a meteor impact that causes a mass extinction event?

The problem for me is that the bible fails to stand up to scrutiny in so many ways. On historical grounds, on scientific grounds, and in logical grounds. Think about what you believe. That your wrongs offend a God and what you have done is so bad you deserve not only death but eternal torment. Sorry but I think better than that of humanity. None are perfect but do you really believe that we all deserve that? Then you believe that someone else can pay this debt on your behalf. I reject the idea as being compatible with the concept of justice or personal responsibility. And how is this vicarious redemption achieved? By the torture and blood sacrifice of another human being. Human sacrifice? This is the moral and only path to salvation? Positively immoral and disgusting in my view. Consider the possibility that Jesus was a Jewish rabbi who came to be viewed as a political threat and was killed for it by the Romans. This was not what his followers expected and they struggled for an explanation. The legends of him grew, spread, and evolved over time. Study early Christianity and you will find that much of what you believe today is the result of struggles and debates settled in the early church, matters not always resolved peacefully.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> The legends of him grew, spread, and evolved over time.



That argument might hold water had the early manuscripts that make up a significant part of the NT not been penned within a generation of Christ's death, or if they had not been penned by some of the people that knew him personally.

Your use of the word "legend" carries a lot of baggage.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> The problem for me is that the bible fails to stand up to scrutiny in so many ways. On historical grounds, on scientific grounds, and in logical grounds.



Can you provide specific evidence where it fails to line up with *historical* grounds?  Theories will not suffice for this one.  Hard facts are required to back up this type of claim.


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

You're still talking in the best cases decades after his death. Prior to that the stories were spread around by word of mouth for years. Even after the stories were written they continued to evolve and contradict each other, which is why some early Christian texts made it into the bible and others didn't.

As to the historical credibilityof the bible there are many examples but let's consider the tower of Babel. Is there any historical evidence supporting that all people on earth were gathered in that one place at that time and multiple languages didn't exist prior to that time and then multiple languages appeared all at once at that time?


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## VisionCasting (Jan 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> As to the historical credibilityof the bible there are many examples but let's consider the tower of Babel. Is there any historical evidence supporting that all people on earth were gathered in that one place at that time and multiple languages didn't exist prior to that time and then multiple languages appeared all at once at that time?



You made the claim it does not stand up to scrutiny.  Back up your claim with evidence, or admit it was a hollow claim.  You can't prove your point through a contraposition.


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

Vision all you have to do is look at all the evidence of humans being on other continents and speaking different languages prior to the tower of Babel to see that the story is false.


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## JFS (Jan 26, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Back up your claim with evidence, or admit it was a hollow claim.  You can't prove your point through a contraposition.



Well, you could say that ad infinitum. If I say Jesus was space alien, you say he wasn't, and I say "back up your claim with evidence."   

The burden lies on the person making the extraordinary claim.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 26, 2011)

Cite evidence of the scientific method used to date the ToB, please.  If you can't do that, you don't know when ToB was built.  If you don't know when it was built, how can you possibly know if there were other languages present at the time?


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## VisionCasting (Jan 26, 2011)

JFS said:


> The burden lies on the person making the extraordinary claim.



Not the extraordinary claim.  The claim.  

Atlas made the claim that the Bible fails to stand up to historical and scientific scrutiny.

If he can't back up that claim, his claim is hollow.

In other words, you will be judged by the same standard (measure) you use to judge.


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

Vision,

if I take the time to demonstrate to you the possible time frames for the tower of Babel according to the Bible and then show you that humans lived in other parts of the globe and/or used different languages prior to that time frame, do you agree to admit that this Biblical story is historically false? The evidence you are asking for is there but it's a waste of time presenting it to someone who lacks the intellectual honesty to acknowledge it.


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## JFS (Jan 26, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Not the extraordinary claim.  The claim.



Well, if you claim you Jesus ate bread, I don't know how you would prove that, but I might be willing to accept it.  We know bread existed in his society and there is at least anecdotal evidence he may have had some at dinner.

But when you make extraordinary claims, i.e. divine intervention or supernatural abilities or events, I'm not buying it unless you can prove it.  If you claim my paper is missing because you heard the delivery guy didn't come, that's a lot different than saying you heard blue nocturnal garden gnomes stole it.

So let's take the flood.  Some excerpts:

Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.” 

Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood.

For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits.[g][h] 21 Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark. 


Seeing no one has a time machine, how do you prove it didn't happen?  But if you claim mass genocide by an irate deity though flood with global water reaching an elevation of 20,000 feet with mankind saved only by a 600 year old dude who somehow packed all of the land based species into a boat for months, well, with all due respect, the burden is on you.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> if I take the time to demonstrate to you the possible time frames for the tower of Babel according to the Bible and then show you that humans lived in other parts of the globe and/or used different languages prior to that time frame, do you agree to admit that this Biblical story is historically false?



Yes, provided you don't use a 'young earth' Biblical dating scheme.  I don't ascribe to that theory.  

And trust me, I've read all the stuff you might Google and regurgitate relative to dating early Biblical history based on "begats" and I don't think it's accurate.  So you'll need to come up with something compelling and original.


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## DouglasB. (Jan 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> As to the historical credibilityof the bible there are many examples but let's consider the tower of Babel. Is there any historical evidence supporting that all people on earth were gathered in that one place at that time and multiple languages didn't exist prior to that time and then multiple languages appeared all at once at that time?



Pangea.


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Yes, provided you don't use a 'young earth' Biblical dating scheme.  I don't ascribe to that theory.
> 
> And trust me, I've read all the stuff you might Google and regurgitate relative to dating early Biblical history based on "begats" and I don't think it's accurate.  So you'll need to come up with something compelling and original.



Can you clarify? You don't think the genealogical histories given in the bible are accurate?


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## JFS (Jan 26, 2011)

DouglasB. said:


> Pangea.



No people on Pangea.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 26, 2011)

According to the KJV time-line, the tower of Babel would have been around 2200 BC, give or take around 15 years either way.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Can you clarify? You don't think the genealogical histories given in the bible are accurate?



I don't think the 'young earth' interpretations of the genealogy are accurate.  Or more accurately, comprehensive.  Meaning "A begat B" means B is a descendant of A and not necessarily his direct offspring.  

The Biblical timelines built on the false premise that "begat" was a single generation are likely flawed, IMHO.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 26, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> I don't think the 'young earth' interpretations of the genealogy are accurate.  Or more accurately, comprehensive.  Meaning "A begat B" means B is a descendant of A and not necessarily his direct offspring.
> 
> The Biblical timelines built on the false premise that "begat" was a single generation are likely flawed, IMHO.



There's a lot more to the math than simply "begat".  I've worked the math all the way through from the birth of Jesus back to the creation of Adam.  It's all math and has nothing to do with "begat".

Example:  Adam was created in 4004 BC.
When Adam was 130 years of age, Seth was born, which would make the year 3874 BC.  When Seth was 105 years of age, Enosh was born, which would be 3769 BC.

For the sake of doing the math, it doesn't matter if Enosh was the son of Seth or his cousin or the neighbor down the street.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> If we keep your entire argument and just change the name of the god would you still find it convincing? You see perfect order because you are looking at a very small slice of reality. When a volcano erupts and incinerates that beautiful deer do you see order? When a child slowly wastes away from leukemia or starves due to drought in their country is that part of your Gods perfect order? How about a tsunami that wipes out a couple hundred thousand people in one blow? Or a meteor impact that causes a mass extinction event?
> 
> The problem for me is that the bible fails to stand up to scrutiny in so many ways. On historical grounds, on scientific grounds, and in logical grounds. Think about what you believe. That your wrongs offend a God and what you have done is so bad you deserve not only death but eternal torment. Sorry but I think better than that of humanity. None are perfect but do you really believe that we all deserve that? Then you believe that someone else can pay this debt on your behalf. I reject the idea as being compatible with the concept of justice or personal responsibility. And how is this vicarious redemption achieved? By the torture and blood sacrifice of another human being. Human sacrifice? This is the moral and only path to salvation? Positively immoral and disgusting in my view. Consider the possibility that Jesus was a Jewish rabbi who came to be viewed as a political threat and was killed for it by the Romans. This was not what his followers expected and they struggled for an explanation. The legends of him grew, spread, and evolved over time. Study early Christianity and you will find that much of what you believe today is the result of struggles and debates settled in the early church, matters not always resolved peacefully.



It was not achieved in the manner you have described, although those immoral and disgusting actions led up to the real act that provides redemption. Ressurection is the key, not death.


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## JFS (Jan 26, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> It was not achieved in the manner you have described, although those immoral and disgusting actions led up to the real act that provides redemption. Ressurection is the key, not death.



Wouldn't it have been easier to just have him die of a heart attack then?


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

Vision,

Give this a read.

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hildebrandt/OTeSources/01-Genesis/Text/Articles-Books/Seely_Babel_WTJ.pdf


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> It was not achieved in the manner you have described, although those immoral and disgusting actions led up to the real act that provides redemption. Ressurection is the key, not death.



Really? And here I thought the wages of sin was death, not resurrection. Why weren't sinners popping out of their graves prior to Jesus as punishment for their sins? Why is the comparison made between Jesus and the sacrificial lambs slaughtered for Passover? Why is Jesus called the lamb of God and why do Christians love to say they are "washed in the blood of the lamb"? How many lambs slaughtered for Passover came back to life?

Isaiah 53:5 says nothing of resurrection redeeming the sinner. No, it was the brutal treatment he received.

I swear you guys just make this stuff up as you go along. No regard at all for even what your own religion claims to be the truth.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Really? And here I thought the wages of sin was death, not resurrection. Why weren't sinners popping out of their graves prior to Jesus as punishment for their sins? Why is the comparison made between Jesus and the sacrificial lambs slaughtered for Passover? Why is Jesus called the lamb of God and why do Christians love to say they are "washed in the blood of the lamb"? How many lambs slaughtered for Passover came back to life?
> 
> Isaiah 53:5 says nothing of resurrection redeeming the sinner. No, it was the brutal treatment he received.
> 
> I swear you guys just make this stuff up as you go along. No regard at all for even what your own religion claims to be the truth.




Read on, just a few more verses. Isaiah 53:11


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

Read verse 10. What is the offering for sin? His life. No blood sacrifice, no redemption. That is a consistent theme throughout the bible, not resurrection as payment for sin.

Animal and human sacrifice as payment for transgressions against a God is a primitive tradition not unique to judaism and not at all moral in my view. Especially when you consider that it is often not the guilty being sacrificed but the most pure and innocent. It really is a disgusting practice.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Read verse 10. What is the offering for sin? His life. No blood sacrifice, no redemption. That is a consistent theme throughout the bible, not resurrection as payment for sin.
> 
> Animal and human sacrifice as payment for transgressions against a God is a primitive tradition not unique to judaism and not at all moral in my view. Especially when you consider that it is often not the guilty being sacrificed but the most pure and innocent. It really is a disgusting practice.



There is a reason that 11 comes after 10. Because Jesus rose again, the practice of sacrificing was no longer needed. He defeated death and eliminated the need for any future sacrifices.


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> There is a reason that 11 comes after 10. Because Jesus rose again, the practice of sacrificing was no longer needed. He defeated death and eliminated the need for any future sacrifices.



In other words, his human sacrifice represented the ultimate and final sacrifice. Thank you for finally coming around.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> In other words, his human sacrifice represented the ultimate and final sacrifice. Thank you for finally coming around.



Yes, what just happened? Did we agree?


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

Question for you... Do you think it is moral that a God have such a blood thirst that he require the gruesome murder of his son to finally satisfy it? After all, the ground rules of this whole game are his to make. If any sacrifice at all were required to defeat death it is only because God said so. Wouldn't it have been more moral to simply say, if you repent and turn away from your sin I forgive you? Oh no. We must have blood. And not the blood of the guilty but the blood of the innocent. Positively immoral.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Question for you... Do you think it is moral that a God have such a blood thirst that he require the gruesome murder of his son to finally satisfy it? After all, the ground rules of this whole game are his to make. If any sacrifice at all were required to defeat death it is only because God said so. Wouldn't it have been more moral to simply say, if you repent and turn away from your sin I forgive you? Oh no. We must have blood. And not the blood of the guilty but the blood of the innocent. Positively immoral.



I knew it was too good to be true. Nice set up.

There was no blood lust, He gave His Son the choice, and his Son loved all of us so much, that he willingly went through the torture to ensure that every last soul on earth had a path to redemption.

I don't think morality applies to God, God is the Absolute Truth. Morality is purely a human struggle.


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> I knew it was too good to be true. Nice set up.



No set up. Just a genuine question.




ted_BSR said:


> There was no blood lust, He gave His Son the choice, and his Son loved all of us so much, that he willingly went through the torture to ensure that every last soul on earth had a path to redemption.



You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if it was voluntary on Jesus part or not. The point is that it was a requirement God created for forgiveness to be granted. He could have just as easily skipped the whole sacrifice by crucifixion bit and went straight to forgiveness. He chose not to.




ted_BSR said:


> I don't think morality applies to God, God is the Absolute Truth. Morality is purely a human struggle.


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## RealtreeRyan (Jan 27, 2011)

God sent His Son, Jesus here to earth as a man to live for 33 years, so that He could experience everything that we experience in our own lives. Him dying as a sacrifice for us is Beautiful. It was meant to be bloody and gruesome because that portrays how wicked and inhumane we as sinful people are...look what we did to the Son of God!!! That is the point...Jesus was willing to endure this treatment bc His love for us is so great! God gave us free will and we chose to turn our backs on Him...knowing that it was wrong. He had to send Jesus to die for us bc He wanted us to be able to be with Him in Heaven one day...so He sent Jesus as a sacrifice for those who CHOOSE to believe in Him, so that there could be a bridge from our sinful nature and death, to The Glory of God and Life Eternal! The Tower of Babel and The Flood are just controversial points. If you believe in God, and Jesus, and all that is THE TRUTH which is THE BIBLE...then you believe in al of it. You can't be 90% committed to God in Faith...just like you can't believe 90% that chair you sit in is going to hold you up, or you would never sit down. And for those who don't believe and want to disprove the Gospel of Christ...it's never too late to surrender to His Love. That's what this whole story is al about...LOVE! We don't really want to argue with people who don't believe...but we argue our point bc we believe. We know why you don't believe and it really boils down to letting your flesh and the devil's influence have control of your life. It doesnt mean people are bad...but the UGLY TRUTH is...without Jesus we are all Horrible. Anyone of us could be a Hitler...but God's Grace and Mercy for those who believe...keep us. Also, it says in the Bible that God not only provides for His Children, but for those who are not His as well. So think of that as well as all of this.


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## vowell462 (Jan 27, 2011)

RealtreeRyan said:


> God sent His Son, Jesus here to earth as a man to live for 33 years, so that He could experience everything that we experience in our own lives. Him dying as a sacrifice for us is Beautiful. It was meant to be bloody and gruesome because that portrays how wicked and inhumane we as sinful people are...look what we did to the Son of God!!! That is the point...Jesus was willing to endure this treatment bc His love for us is so great! God gave us free will and we chose to turn our backs on Him...knowing that it was wrong. He had to send Jesus to die for us bc He wanted us to be able to be with Him in Heaven one day...so He sent Jesus as a sacrifice for those who CHOOSE to believe in Him, so that there could be a bridge from our sinful nature and death, to The Glory of God and Life Eternal! The Tower of Babel and The Flood are just controversial points. If you believe in God, and Jesus, and all that is THE TRUTH which is THE BIBLE...then you believe in al of it. You can't be 90% committed to God in Faith...just like you can't believe 90% that chair you sit in is going to hold you up, or you would never sit down. And for those who don't believe and want to disprove the Gospel of Christ...it's never too late to surrender to His Love. That's what this whole story is al about...LOVE! We don't really want to argue with people who don't believe...but we argue our point bc we believe. We know why you don't believe and it really boils down to letting your flesh and the devil's influence have control of your life. It doesnt mean people are bad...but the UGLY TRUTH is...without Jesus we are all Horrible. Anyone of us could be a Hitler...but God's Grace and Mercy for those who believe...keep us. Also, it says in the Bible that God not only provides for His Children, but for those who are not His as well. So think of that as well as all of this.



Im not trying to be rude, and am certainly not trying to offend anyone. But I have to say this sounds like the same thing I have heard from every southern baptist preacher. So please answer this, why do you believe the story and constantly proclaim it to be" The Truth"? In my opinion, nobody can claim anything to be "the truth" because fact is we dont know the answer. So my question again is why do you believe? Were you raised too? Have you really thought about the bloody past of christians? How can you preach love with one of the most bloody religions ever known? Your claim of a story of love is hard for me to fathom.


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## atlashunter (Jan 27, 2011)

RealtreeRyan said:


> God sent His Son, Jesus here to earth as a man to live for 33 years, so that He could experience everything that we experience in our own lives.



Would that be necessary for an omniscient being?




RealtreeRyan said:


> Him dying as a sacrifice for us is Beautiful. It was meant to be bloody and gruesome because that portrays how wicked and inhumane we as sinful people are...look what we did to the Son of God!!!



You know Ryan I've done a lot of things in my life I'm not proud of. But I've never committed a murder and I've certainly never crucified someone. I've never engaged in human sacrifice and I won't take anyone seriously that says I have. You may feel guilty about what some Romans did a couple thousand years ago. It's a shame that someone has convinced you the blood of someone murdered so long ago is on your hands. But I do not share your sense of guilt. 




RealtreeRyan said:


> That is the point...Jesus was willing to endure this treatment bc His love for us is so great! God gave us free will and we chose to turn our backs on Him...knowing that it was wrong. He had to send Jesus to die for us bc He wanted us to be able to be with Him in Heaven one day...so He sent Jesus as a sacrifice for those who CHOOSE to believe in Him, so that there could be a bridge from our sinful nature and death, to The Glory of God and Life Eternal!



You're still missing my point Ryan. _Why_ did he require a human sacrifice? We are talking about an all powerful being here. Any rules concerning sin, punishment, and redemption are by necessity rules of his choosing. To say otherwise is to admit he isn't omnipotent. If the rule he sets says that the only way to reconcile between him and man is by way of blood sacrifice of the innocent, is that a moral rule? Is that justice?

Imagine a murderer going on trial and found guilty. His sentence? Redeem yourself by committing another murder. And not just any murder. It must be the murder of someone completely innocent and flawless. Only in this way can you be forgiven your crime. It's hard to imagine a concept more at odds with justice and morality than this.




RealtreeRyan said:


> The Tower of Babel and The Flood are just controversial points.



They are important points for anyone sincere about seeking the truth. The stories are either true or they aren't. If they aren't, your believing in them isn't going to change that. The same applies to every other claim of the bible. I guess the question is, if your faith conflicts with the truth where does your loyalty lie?




RealtreeRyan said:


> We know why you don't believe and it really boils down to letting your flesh and the devil's influence have control of your life.



Believing that helps you to ignore the real reasons that people don't share your beliefs. I've explained a few of those reasons. There are many many more. You're refusal to acknowledge them doesn't make them go away. Most people who lose their faith remain as morally good or better than when they were believers. If what you are saying were true then we might expect to see a disproportionate number of atheists in prison as compared to their percentage in the general population. In fact we see the opposite. The percentage of christians in prison is greater than their percentage outside of prison while the percentage of atheists in prison is much lower than outside.




RealtreeRyan said:


> It doesnt mean people are bad...but the UGLY TRUTH is...without Jesus we are all Horrible. Anyone of us could be a Hitler...but God's Grace and Mercy for those who believe...keep us.



It's sad that you think so little of your fellow man. There are some terrible people. They are the exception to the rule. We all make mistakes. We all sometimes do things that we shouldn't. But we aren't a bunch of Hitlers. If we were we wouldn't have gotten this far.

Go sit on a park bench sometime where you can watch people going about their daily business. None of them are perfect but if you can look around at all of those people and say to yourself "they all deserve to burn forever and ever" then there is something bad wrong with your thinking.


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## ambush80 (Jan 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Would that be necessary for an omniscient being?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



From what I understand it's even sicker than that.  They believe that sweet, little newborn babies carry the burden of Adam and Eve's sin.  Twisted.


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## RealtreeRyan (Jan 27, 2011)

Amen Chicken Cow!!! About the human sacrifice...Jesus was 100% human, but He was also 100% God. So as a perfect sacrifice...meaning with no sin whatsoever, He was the only one that could die for us and it actually be an atonement. It would not have been a perfect, one time only, saving sacrifice had it not come from Jesus, the perfect Son of God. I don't think so little of our human race, it's just that inside we are all inclined to sin. In God's eyes, sin is sin, murder or lying, they are both in direct disobedience to God The Father, each one just carries different consequences. I believe the Bible is true, so I do believe about the Flood and the Tower of Babel. In me saying they were controversial points, i meant that the only thing that really matters when this life is over, is whether or not you had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Those who do not know Jesus or follow His commandments, as a whole, I don't think they view themselves or others as bad people. But the truth according to the Bible and God's Word is, yes, even I deserve to burn in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- Forever, but instead, Christ made a way for me to be with Him Forever in Heaven by sacrificing Jesus, in my place, so I don't have to suffer eternal ****ation. That's why our faith is so, as you would say I guess, bloody, because Jesus took our place all at once on the cross.
But what I want to know... is for you and those who disagree with Christianity...what do you put your hope in? Where are you going when you die? How do you know where you are going? What and or who do you believe in? If I am so wrong...what do you believe is right?


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## RealtreeRyan (Jan 27, 2011)

The edited for the profanity part was the word He-double L! Don't know why it is considered profanity!


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## 1handkneehigh (Jan 27, 2011)

RealtreeRyan said:


> ...Jesus was 100% human, but He was also 100% God.


According to christians, there is only one god.  Then why are you calling jesus a god?  Is there more than one god?  Father and son are not the same!  So which one is more god, god or jesus?


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## atlashunter (Jan 27, 2011)

I would be happy to answer your questions if you would go back and answer mine.


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## ambush80 (Jan 28, 2011)

RealtreeRyan said:


> Amen Chicken Cow!!! About the human sacrifice...Jesus was 100% human, but He was also 100% God. So as a perfect sacrifice...meaning with no sin whatsoever, He was the only one that could die for us and it actually be an atonement. It would not have been a perfect, one time only, saving sacrifice had it not come from Jesus, the perfect Son of God. I don't think so little of our human race, it's just that inside we are all inclined to sin. In God's eyes, sin is sin, murder or lying, they are both in direct disobedience to God The Father, each one just carries different consequences. I believe the Bible is true, so I do believe about the Flood and the Tower of Babel. In me saying they were controversial points, i meant that the only thing that really matters when this life is over, is whether or not you had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Those who do not know Jesus or follow His commandments, as a whole, I don't think they view themselves or others as bad people. But the truth according to the Bible and God's Word is, yes, even I deserve to burn in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- Forever, but instead, Christ made a way for me to be with Him Forever in Heaven by sacrificing Jesus, in my place, so I don't have to suffer eternal ****ation. That's why our faith is so, as you would say I guess, bloody, because Jesus took our place all at once on the cross.
> But what I want to know... is for you and those who disagree with Christianity...what do you put your hope in? Where are you going when you die? How do you know where you are going? What and or who do you believe in? If I am so wrong...what do you believe is right?



Why do you think that The Flood and The Tower of Babel are controversial and not the Resurrection?


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## RealtreeRyan (Jan 28, 2011)

Jesus is God's Son and the Holy spirit is who Christians have living inside of us from God. God the Father, God the Son...Jesus....and the Holy Spirit make up the Holy Trinity. All 3 of these beings are the same person of Christ. I dont think that the flood, ToB, or the Resurrection are controversial. Some people just want to nit pick and argue...wow!


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## atlashunter (Jan 28, 2011)

Read the link I posted about the Tower of Babel. It is written by a christian. Based on a number of factors the oldest you can date the Tower of Babel to would be 3500 BC. But we know there were already different peoples scattered all over the globe at that point. The story doesn't square with the facts.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 28, 2011)

1handkneehigh said:


> According to christians, there is only one god.  Then why are you calling jesus a god?  Is there more than one god?  Father and son are not the same!  So which one is more god, god or jesus?



How can the chemical compound H2O exist as ice, water or steam?  Same chemical compound, different manifestation of it.

None of the Father, Spirit or Christ are more God than any other.   They are all God.   But they do have different functions.


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## dexrusjak (Jan 28, 2011)

RealtreeRyan said:


> Amen Chicken Cow!!! About the human sacrifice...Jesus was 100% human, but He was also 100% God. So as a perfect sacrifice...meaning with no sin whatsoever, He was the only one that could die for us and it actually be an atonement. It would not have been a perfect, one time only, saving sacrifice had it not come from Jesus, the perfect Son of God. I don't think so little of our human race, it's just that inside we are all inclined to sin. In God's eyes, sin is sin, murder or lying,  (You cannot be serious, can you?  So you're telling me that in the eyes of your perfect god, a child lying about how many cookies he ate is equivalent to murder.  I don't understand how a reasonably sane person could believe such nonsense.  Ridiculous.)  they are both in direct disobedience to God The Father, each one just carries different consequences. I believe the Bible is true, so I do believe about the Flood and the Tower of Babel. In me saying they were controversial points, i meant that the only thing that really matters when this life is over, is whether or not you had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Those who do not know Jesus or follow His commandments, as a whole, I don't think they view themselves or others as bad people. But the truth according to the Bible and God's Word is, yes, even I deserve to burn in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- Forever (Why? Because the Bible says so?  Weak.) , but instead, Christ made a way for me to be with Him Forever in Heaven by sacrificing Jesus, in my place, so I don't have to suffer eternal ****ation. (You know what would be really cool, if there was no eternal ****ation from which one would need saving.  But that would require an omnipotent creator god, oh wait, you believe in an omnipotent creator god, hmm....Then why all the eternal ****ation and whatnot?  If only your omnipotent creator god was kind and loving.  Wait, what?.....You believe he is loving, and omnipotent, and created a system that includes eternal ****ation?!  Confusing.  Do you really think what you think you think?  I think not.) That's why our faith is so, as you would say I guess, bloody, because Jesus took our place all at once on the cross.
> But what I want to know... is for you and those who disagree with Christianity...what do you put your hope in? (Reality.) Where are you going when you die? (The ground -- same as you.) How do you know where you are going? (I guess I don't.  There are so many cemeteries to choose from.) What and or who do you believe in? (Reality.  Logic.  Myself.  My family.  My friends.) If I am so wrong...what do you believe is right? (Reality. Logic. Common sense.)



Comments in blue.


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## atlashunter (Jan 28, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> How can the chemical compound H2O exist as ice, water or steam?  Same chemical compound, different manifestation of it.
> 
> None of the Father, Spirit or Christ are more God than any other.   They are all God.   But they do have different functions.



That doesn't fly. You can't be the father and son of yourself. Jesus prayed to the father. That means two separate minds, one communicating with the other. Two individual beings.


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## ambush80 (Jan 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> That doesn't fly. You can't be the father and son of yourself. Jesus prayed to the father. That means two separate minds, one communicating with the other. Two individual beings.



Abracus Cadabracus.


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## Achilles Return (Jan 28, 2011)

RealtreeRyan said:


> Amen Chicken Cow!!! About the human sacrifice...Jesus was 100% human, but He was also 100% God. So as a perfect sacrifice...meaning with no sin whatsoever, He was the only one that could die for us and it actually be an atonement. It would not have been a perfect, one time only, saving sacrifice had it not come from Jesus, the perfect Son of God. I don't think so little of our human race, it's just that inside we are all inclined to sin. In God's eyes, sin is sin, murder or lying, they are both in direct disobedience to God The Father, each one just carries different consequences. I believe the Bible is true, so I do believe about the Flood and the Tower of Babel. In me saying they were controversial points, i meant that the only thing that really matters when this life is over, is whether or not you had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Those who do not know Jesus or follow His commandments, as a whole, I don't think they view themselves or others as bad people. But the truth according to the Bible and God's Word is, yes, even I deserve to burn in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- Forever, but instead, Christ made a way for me to be with Him Forever in Heaven by sacrificing Jesus, in my place, so I don't have to suffer eternal ****ation. That's why our faith is so, as you would say I guess, bloody, because Jesus took our place all at once on the cross.
> But what I want to know... is for you and those who disagree with Christianity...what do you put your hope in? Where are you going when you die? How do you know where you are going? What and or who do you believe in? If I am so wrong...what do you believe is right?



You're still missing the point, and that is - why did there even need to be atonement? Your god is omnipotent, he can merely will anything he wants, so surely he could have made atonement unnecessary.

Let me put it this way - any religion that puts Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson and Pat Tillman in a lake of eternal fire and torture will _never_ get any respect from me. The idea that world's two largest philanthropists (Warren Buffet and Bill Gates) in our entire history could be sent there as well? It disgusts me, in all honesty. 

How do I live my life? It's simple - '*Do right*'. I can easily be moral man my parents raised me to be without the unnecessary baggage of religion. As for when I die? Well, that's the mystery, ain't it? But as I don't remember the eons before I was born, I do not believe that I will know them after I die. Earlier you mentioned that everything I said is a mere vehicle for the lusts of my flesh or the devil's influence. I dare you to compare today's christians and atheists and find this _significant_ moral difference. Here's a hint: It doesn't exist. I wonder why?


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## VisionCasting (Jan 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> That doesn't fly. You can't be the father and son of yourself. Jesus prayed to the father. That means two separate minds, one communicating with the other. Two individual beings.



That's like saying the Supreme Court doesn't exist because there are multiple judges.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 28, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> Let me put it this way - any religion that puts Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson and Pat Tillman in a lake of eternal fire and torture will _never_ get any respect from me. The idea that world's two largest philanthropists (Warren Buffet and Bill Gates) in our entire history could be sent there as well? It disgusts me, in all honesty.



You are approaching the question all wrong.  You should instead ask "Would a loving God force you eternally into His presence?"

Buffett and Gate's philanthropy, while admirable, is not sufficient - and that is EXACTLY the point.  *Would you devote yourself to a god that could be purchased? * What kind of god is that?  Christianity clearly states that there is no way to 'buy' or 'do' your way into God's grace.  It makes the whole thing a level playing field where economics, influence, power, intellect, charisma, etc... have no bearing on the equation.


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## atlashunter (Jan 28, 2011)

No it isn't vision. Unless you are saying that God is actually a group of multiple Gods the comparison isn't valid. Nobody says the individuals of the supreme court constitute one individual.


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## Achilles Return (Jan 28, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> You are approaching the question all wrong.  You should instead ask "Would a loving God force you eternally into His presence?"
> 
> Buffett and Gate's philanthropy, while admirable, is not sufficient - and that is EXACTLY the point.  *Would you devote yourself to a god that could be purchased? * What kind of god is that?  Christianity clearly states that there is no way to 'buy' or 'do' your way into God's grace.  It makes the whole thing a level playing field where economics, influence, power, intellect, charisma, etc... have no bearing on the equation.



And this counter-argument falls flat on its face when you realize the triviality of requiring atonement at all - and even if one ignores that and takes the need for atonement at its face, this still doesn't explain the hellfire and brimstone of eternal torture. There is absolutely NO reason for it. 

And my point about Gates and Buffet is that they're doing what they do _without_ god. They don't believe in the idea at all, so how could they be trying to "buy" or "do" their way into heaven? Your objection doesn't make sense, at all. 

You can't tell me I'm approaching the question wrong because you don't like the much harsher picture of reality that it shows. You can't just ignore my questions and replace them with something that you _can_ answer. They _are_ valid and stand on their own.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 28, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> And my point about Gates and Buffet is that they're doing what they do _without_ god. They don't believe in the idea at all, so how could they be trying to "buy" or "do" their way into heaven? Your objection doesn't make sense, at all.



They are going exactly what one would expect.  Attempting to "do enough good" to attain eternal life, or karma, or nirvana, or ????.  It's the same old story.  And it's been addressed.  You can't do enough good.  No matter the size of your wallet.


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## Achilles Return (Jan 28, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> They are going exactly what one would expect.  Attempting to "do enough good" to attain eternal life, or karma, or nirvana, or ????.  It's the same old story.  And it's been addressed.  You can't do enough good.  No matter the size of your wallet.



No. They aren't. Why would try to attain these things if they don't believe in any of them? It's as if you are refusing to understand that people might not think as you do. There isn't any afterlife "goal" they're aiming for - there's nothing motivating their behavior beyond themselves. 

And yet they'll burn just like Pat Tillman, right? For doing nothing other than having "disbelief". That is the reality of your religion. And to _me_, that's as immoral as anything I've ever seen.


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## RealtreeRyan (Jan 28, 2011)

All I know is God is real to me because He has blessed me, as well as He has others, in so many ways, and I see Him working in my life. I have no need of a religion...I have a relationship with the one true God!!! I don't have to live by works...but by Faith! I have written enough to share my Jesus with you guys...I hope you find Him and let Him into your lives. I can only pray this for you all who don't believe. Why would we be born on this earth just to be turned into nothing by being put in the ground? There is more life after this one...and there is only one of two places you are going to spend it...forever.


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## Achilles Return (Jan 28, 2011)

I'll pass.


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## vowell462 (Jan 28, 2011)

chicken cow said:


> Christianity is one of the bloodiest religions, But it was their own blood that was given. Soon After Christs death Nero began to persecute the Church. He would put Christians in wax body suits and burn them alive to light his gardens at night. Christians were pulled apart by horses, burned at the stake, their stomach was cut open and feed put in them and were eaten by pigs while they were still alive. they were boiled to death. So YES..it is one of the bloodiest religons. If you do not believe the Bible is the Word of God then I do not expect you to believe me. I am called to spred his word and some will not believe it is said...  Matthew 10 verse 14 And whoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when you depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.



Ok Chicken Cow. Bible verses again are not proven so throwing them at me as defense is a rejected defense. As for your analogy of the apple? Tasting a holy spirit seems rather grotesque if you ask me. My question was why do you believe and why do you proclaim it is truth? It is called faith and believing because that is exactly what you are doing. Believing something which cannot be proved.

 As for your defense on my comment about christianity being bloody, still a weak one. It seems to me you are only concerned about the torment that christians went through. What about what they have done? And no, Im not just talking about the crusades. I challenge you to do a little history research into the 14th and 15th century. Read a little about the Spanish Inquisition. They killed people brutally for heresy. A simple " you dont believe us? Off with your head!" Blood poured in the streets. Ignoring this is simply sophmoric. What about verses in the bible which says to stone women to death if they arent virgins before they marry? What about the verses that say we should kill homosexuals? Do you really believe that is what we should do? If so, you have absolutley been brainwashed and I refuse to be part of any organization or church that does so. Its disgusting.


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## 1handkneehigh (Jan 28, 2011)

RealtreeRyan said:


> All I know is God is real to me because He has blessed me, as well as He has others, in so many ways, and I see Him working in my life. I have no need of a religion...



Since christianity is a religion, are you denouncing christianity?

I believe men created god in their image because god's actions and decisions reflected to those of their own.


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## vowell462 (Jan 28, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> I'll pass.



Im with ya.


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## vowell462 (Jan 28, 2011)

RealtreeRyan said:


> All I know is God is real to me because He has blessed me, as well as He has others, in so many ways, and I see Him working in my life. I have no need of a religion...I have a relationship with the one true God!!! I don't have to live by works...but by Faith! I have written enough to share my Jesus with you guys...I hope you find Him and let Him into your lives. I can only pray this for you all who don't believe. Why would we be born on this earth just to be turned into nothing by being put in the ground? There is more life after this one...and there is only one of two places you are going to spend it...forever.



Typical. Absolutley contradicting. No need of a religion huh? Blows my mind. Brainwashed.


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## JFS (Jan 28, 2011)

RealtreeRyan said:


> Where are you going when you die?



Begs the question of what "you" are that can go anywhere, but if you have to fabricate an afterlife to dispell your egotisitic fears I say go for paradise with 72 virgins.


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## atlashunter (Jan 28, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> You are approaching the question all wrong.  You should instead ask "Would a loving God force you eternally into His presence?"



A loving God wouldn't but yours does. To say he doesn't is like saying a thief with a gun to your head doesn't force you to give them your wallet. A choice with a threat of violence attached, especially a threat of eternal burning, is no choice at all. The God described in the bible is neither loving or moral. If there is such a thing as a loving God it isn't the God of the bible.

Besides, the motivation behind the whole concept of "the hot place" is plain as day. The determining factor in who goes to "the hot place" according to christians isn't whether you want to be with or apart from God, it's whether you will believe the teachings of the religion being sold despite any lack of evidence. No accident that christianity isn't the only religion guilty of this sort of tactic. It's a pathetic attempt at mental intimidation. Abandon your reason or else! What a shame that you have fallen for it.




VisionCasting said:


> Buffett and Gate's philanthropy, while admirable, is not sufficient - and that is EXACTLY the point.



Yes that is the point of christian theology isn't it? You can be the most hideous monster to your fellow humans and still receive an eternal reward if you believe the right thing. On the other hand no matter how good a person you are, no matter how well you live your life, you'll burn forever if you don't believe the right thing. The christian Nazi who threw children alive into burning pits and gassed jewish families will go to heaven if he repents before death and believes in Jesus. His jewish victims who rejected the divinity of Jesus will burn. This is what you must believe to accept what christianity teaches. This is what you must call justice.




VisionCasting said:


> *Would you devote yourself to a god that could be purchased? * What kind of god is that?  Christianity clearly states that there is no way to 'buy' or 'do' your way into God's grace.  It makes the whole thing a level playing field where economics, influence, power, intellect, charisma, etc... have no bearing on the equation.



Ah but christians do devote themselves to a God that can be purchased and the purchase price is believing something regardless of any lack of evidence or evidence to the contrary.


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## wrestler (Jan 28, 2011)

atlas, let me ask you one question (which may lead to more but for now, just one).

do you think murder is wrong?


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## atlashunter (Jan 28, 2011)

RealtreeRyan said:


> All I know is God is real to me because He has blessed me, as well as He has others, in so many ways, and I see Him working in my life. I have no need of a religion...I have a relationship with the one true God!!!



Ryan when you claim to know something which you don't and can't you destroy your own credibility. You may believe, think, and hope that God is real. You don't know it and you should at least be honest about that. There is a difference between believing something and knowing something.




RealtreeRyan said:


> I don't have to live by works...but by Faith!



Not exactly something to be proud of that you will believe in something without evidence. Faith is not a virtue in my view.




RealtreeRyan said:


> Why would we be born on this earth just to be turned into nothing by being put in the ground? There is more life after this one...and there is only one of two places you are going to spend it...forever.



Does that question apply to all life on earth or only humans? If only humans, why?


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## atlashunter (Jan 28, 2011)

wrestler said:


> atlas, let me ask you one question (which may lead to more but for now, just one).
> 
> do you think murder is wrong?



Yes I do.


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## wrestler (Jan 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Yes I do.


where does this thought of murder being wrong come from?


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## atlashunter (Jan 28, 2011)

wrestler said:


> where does this thought of murder being wrong come from?



I don't think that question has a simple answer. It may come from multiple sources or sources that reinforce one another. If you are asking why I believe murder is wrong that is easier to answer. I can empathize with others and because of that, the idea that you should not do to others what you would not want done to you resonates with me.

Where do you think this thought comes from?


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## wrestler (Jan 28, 2011)

i think it comes from the consciousness that God has instilled in every living human being. 
now sir, let me ask you this, if there is no punishment after life, then why should murder be wrong. because if you do not belive that there is no post-life punishment, murdering an individual would release them from this cruel and unjust world.

and i said sir, not in sarcasm but becasue i am younger than you and showing respect. just don t want that to come across wrong.


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## ambush80 (Jan 28, 2011)

RealtreeRyan said:


> All I know is God is real to me because He has blessed me, as well as He has others, in so many ways, and I see Him working in my life. I have no need of a religion...I have a relationship with the one true God!!! I don't have to live by works...but by Faith! I have written enough to share my Jesus with you guys...I hope you find Him and let Him into your lives. I can only pray this for you all who don't believe. Why would we be born on this earth just to be turned into nothing by being put in the ground? There is more life after this one...and there is only one of two places you are going to spend it...forever.



I'll take door number three, Monty.


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## atlashunter (Jan 28, 2011)

wrestler said:


> i think it comes from the consciousness that God has instilled in every living human being.



Well I do think that most people (there are the exceptions of psychopaths) do have an innate sense of right and wrong that gets further molded by their environment sometimes for better sometimes for worse. So in that respect we see the same thing even if we don't agree on its origin. I do think it is interesting that humans aren't the only animals to exhibit what could be termed as moral behavior. Many animals and especially the higher developed social mammals show a caring toward one another or even other species, and show that they have some level of understanding of behaviors that are acceptable and unacceptable within their social structure.




wrestler said:


> now sir, let me ask you this, if there is no punishment after life, then why should murder be wrong. because if you do not belive that there is no post-life punishment, murdering an individual would release them from this cruel and unjust world.



Well I think if someone wants to release themself from this world that is their decision, not mine. I don't want anyone else making that decision for me.

I don't think whether something is right or wrong is contingent on whether or not you are caught and punished. If you do something bad and never pay any penalty for it does that mean what you did wasn't wrong? It just means you didn't suffer a consequence you might have suffered had you been caught. You're obviously a believer but just imagine for a moment that there is no God and no afterlife. Just a bunch of people living for a time and dying on this planet. Would murder cease to be wrong?




wrestler said:


> and i said sir, not in sarcasm but becasue i am younger than you and showing respect. just don t want that to come across wrong.



No offense taken.


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## ambush80 (Jan 28, 2011)

wrestler said:


> i think it comes from the consciousness that God has instilled in every living human being.
> now sir, let me ask you this, if there is no punishment after life, then why should murder be wrong. because if you do not belive that there is no post-life punishment, murdering an individual would release them from this cruel and unjust world.
> 
> and i said sir, not in sarcasm but becasue i am younger than you and showing respect. just don t want that to come across wrong.



I know you are talking to Atlas but may I ask you 2 things?  

1. What makes you think that it was God or a God or Gods that are responsible for the thing you call a conscience?

2. Did you know that you can be a murderer; a cannibalistic, child raping, torturing murderer and still go to Heaven as long they you repent, while a kind, loving, altruistic person will go to He11 for not believing that Jesus is God?  Does that seem right to you?

(Ok. Maybe 3 questions.)


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## wrestler (Jan 28, 2011)

see sir, ii was at one time an aetheist. and yes i did. murder would not be right, just using an example. and see? i knew this would lead too anoother question, but did you used to be a Christian?


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## wrestler (Jan 28, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I know you are talking to Atlas but may I ask you 2 things?
> 
> 1. What makes you think that it was God or a God or Gods that are responsible for the thing you call a conscience?
> 
> ...


i totally understand this and that is the great thing about being a christian! not that you can do whatever and no punishment, just that if you truely repent and change wouldnt you ask for a second chance?


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## atlashunter (Jan 28, 2011)

wrestler said:


> see sir, ii was at one time an aetheist. and yes i did. murder would not be right, just using an example. and see? i knew this would lead too anoother question, but did you used to be a Christian?



You thought murder would not be right when you were an atheist?

Yes I used to be a christian.

It's an interesting topic that you brought up concerning morality and religion.

I would _highly_ recommend reading the essay by Elizabeth Anderson titled If God Is Dead, Is Everything Permitted?.

Excellent food for thought for believers and non-believers alike.

http://www.skeptic.ca/Biblical_Ethics.htm


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## atlashunter (Jan 28, 2011)

wrestler said:


> i totally understand this and that is the great thing about being a christian! not that you can do whatever and no punishment, just that if you truely repent and change wouldnt you ask for a second chance?



Do you think most people are so bad that they deserve to burn?


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## wrestler (Jan 28, 2011)

yes. i belive we are all inherantly evil. and let me ask this, why do two year olds lie? where does this sin come from?


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## ted_BSR (Jan 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Well I do think that most people (there are the exceptions of psychopaths) do have an innate sense of right and wrong that gets further molded by their environment sometimes for better sometimes for worse. So in that respect we see the same thing even if we don't agree on its origin. I do think it is interesting that humans aren't the only animals to exhibit what could be termed as moral behavior. Many animals and especially the higher developed social mammals show a caring toward one another or even other species, and show that they have some level of understanding of behaviors that are acceptable and unacceptable within their social structure.



Would you give an example of a higher developed social mammal?


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## wrestler (Jan 28, 2011)

highjacker.  just kidding


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## wrestler (Jan 28, 2011)

atlas, what happened to make you a non beliver?


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## atlashunter (Jan 28, 2011)

I wonder how much thought you have given that part about burning and people being inherently evil. One of the key concepts of justice is proportionality, ie the punishment fits the crime. It's an idea that predates monotheism. Someone steals a dollar from you it is an injustice to whip out a dull knife and saw their head off.

Now we are all of necessity self interested. It's how we are made. And in that self interest we sometimes do things that we shouldn't. We take what isn't ours, we lie because we think it will benefit us or we fear some negative outcome if we tell the truth, we harm others in our own selfishness, etc. We also generally have a sense of varying degrees of wrong. I think most people would agree stealing a dollar isn't as bad as raping and murdering a child nor would we consider it justice to mete out the same punishment for both crimes. But burning for eternity has no proportionality. Not only because of the severity of the punishment but the infinite duration. If you were Hitler in this life you burn forever. If you went through life and managed to commit just one sin like telling a lie (maybe you were that 2 year old and were killed after you told the lie) you get exactly the same punishment that Hitler gets.

Now I disagree that we are all inherently evil. We are inherently self interested and sometimes that leads us to do evil acts of varying degree but I don't think your average Joe that goes through life working a 40 hour week, raising a family, just enjoying life and trying to make the best of it along the way deserves to burn in a lake of fire for any amount of time much less an infinite amount. I really do think better of people than that and it saddens me to see others that don't.

But to step into your shoes for a moment let me ask you, if we all have an inherently evil nature and deserve to burn for it, where did we get that inherent nature from? What happens to that inherently evil nature in the people who go to heaven? They are still inherently evil right?


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## atlashunter (Jan 28, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Would you give an example of a higher developed social mammal?



The great apes and dolphins.


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## atlashunter (Jan 28, 2011)

wrestler said:


> atlas, what happened to make you a non beliver?



Too much to type out. It was a process that happened over a number of years. People rarely change their views on these questions overnight. If you watch the videos on the Deconversion thread my experience was very similar in terms of the thought processes (and emotions).


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## atlashunter (Jan 28, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Vision,
> 
> if I take the time to demonstrate to you the possible time frames for the tower of Babel according to the Bible and then show you that humans lived in other parts of the globe and/or used different languages prior to that time frame, do you agree to admit that this Biblical story is historically false? The evidence you are asking for is there but it's a waste of time presenting it to someone who lacks the intellectual honesty to acknowledge it.






VisionCasting said:


> Yes, provided you don't use a 'young earth' Biblical dating scheme.  I don't ascribe to that theory.
> 
> And trust me, I've read all the stuff you might Google and regurgitate relative to dating early Biblical history based on "begats" and I don't think it's accurate.  So you'll need to come up with something compelling and original.






atlashunter said:


> Vision,
> 
> Give this a read.
> 
> http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hildebrandt/OTeSources/01-Genesis/Text/Articles-Books/Seely_Babel_WTJ.pdf



Ok vision, time to man up.


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## RealtreeRyan (Jan 29, 2011)

Religion is man made. A relationship with Jesus was created by God. That is why I CHOOSE to have a relationship. There is proof that God exists...it's all around us. The comprehensiveness of all the details of life in itself could not just come about except by the thought and creation of a higher being...GOD! But...in order to see the proof you have to believe by faith first, that God exists. If you disagree with the fundamentals, you can't believe in all of the other facets of Christianity or of God. I have noticed that all of you non-Christians have a hard time of answering our questions with actual answers...instead...you answer our questions with another descending, sarcastic, rude question! What can you prove? Prove us wrong...where are all of your facts and beliefs. What is your life based on? Your views on life and God and Death are so far out there...I mean honestly...you have no ground to stand on. And the sad part is...it doesnt matter what someone believes...it's people like you who just like to disagree with people. It's disgusting to me how you think people are inherintly good, but yet there are people like you. Funny to me...Rejecting Jesus Christ is the only unforgiveable sin by God. Have fun without Him!


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## atlashunter (Jan 29, 2011)

Ryan you really need to work on your critical thinking skills and I mean that with all sincerity. Your questions have been answered in detail.

We've shown you historical problems with the bible. We've shown you moral problems and logical problems and asked you to better explain your side. So far all you have done is argue by assertion and claims of personal experience without addressing any of the objections raised.

I would really like if you would tackle my question from earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealtreeRyan View Post
Why would we be born on this earth just to be turned into nothing by being put in the ground? There is more life after this one...and there is only one of two places you are going to spend it...forever.

Does that question apply to all life on earth or only humans? If only humans, why?


If you are really interested in having a productive conversation and maybe making some headway I can tell you exactly how to go about it. Imagine someone is trying to convince YOU of their religion/God/beliefs. What would it take to convince you that their claims were true? If someone tells you Poseidon exists and the proof is all around us would that persuade you? How about if they tell you they have a personal relationship with Quetzalcoatl so they know he is real? How about if they challenged you to prove their claims wrong? Don't recognize their God? You're just rebelling for your own self serving reasons. When you understand how and why you would react to such claims then you will understand the reactions to your claims.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> The great apes and dolphins.



I am not too sure about dolphins, but the "Great Apes" aka chimpanzees and gorillas are known to practice infanticide, murder and cannibalism.

Maybe you don't have this all figured out.


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## atlashunter (Jan 29, 2011)

Go back and read what I said again. I'm not saying they are on the same level of humans or even that they have the capacity to comprehend morality as we do.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Go back and read what I said again. I'm not saying they are on the same level of humans or even that they have the capacity to comprehend morality as we do.



Nope, once is enough. I get where you are coming from.


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## atlashunter (Jan 29, 2011)

Then don't misconstrue what I said.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 29, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Then don't misconstrue what I said.



Pardon me. Please continue.


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## dexrusjak (Jan 29, 2011)

RealtreeRyan said:


> Religion is man made. A relationship with Jesus was created by God. That is why I CHOOSE to have a relationship. There is proof that God exists...it's all around us. (Please elaborate.  Please tell me what exactly exists around us that PROVES God exists.) The comprehensiveness of all the details of life in itself could not just come about except by the thought and creation of a higher being...GOD! (Even if I were to agree with you [which, of course, I do not] you are still a looooooooonnnnnnnnng way from proving that this higher being god is the god of the Bible.  Why not Zeus or Thor or the FSM?  Why not a whole pantheon of gods or aliens or a big kid with a magnifying glass?  You CANNOT prove that your god exists [Don't feel too bad though, because, to be fair, I cannot prove that your god doesn't exist.  But the burden of proof is on you, my friend.) But...in order to see the proof you have to believe by faith first, (Help me understand this, please.  I have to believe in god FIRST and THEN I will see evidence that this god exists.  That seems pretty bass ackerds to this country boy.) that God exists. If you disagree with the fundamentals, you can't believe in all of the other facets of Christianity or of God. I have noticed that all of you non-Christians have a hard time of answering our questions with actual answers...instead...you answer our questions with another descending, sarcastic, rude question! (I won't go as far as you and lump all Christians together, but I have noticed that you answer non-believers questions with regurgitated southern baptist sermons and Sunday school lessons.  Have you ever had an original thought?) What can you prove? (Very little.  what can you prove?)Prove us wrong...where are all of your facts and beliefs. (Ummm......science, logic, reason, common sense.  Where are all your facts?  Let me guess -- the Bible.  Right, nothing like a collection of ancient texts written by ignorant, superstitious men and compiled by power-crazed, agenda-driven men to base one's life and beliefs upon.)  What is your life based on? Your views on life and God and Death are so far out there...I mean honestly...you have no ground to stand on. And the sad part is...it doesnt matter what someone believes...it's people like you who just like to disagree with people. (Pot, meet kettle.) It's disgusting to me how you think people are inherintly good, but yet there are people like you. (Please elaborate.  What do you mean "people like you"?  That's racist.) Funny to me...Rejecting Jesus Christ is the only unforgiveable sin by God. Have fun without Him! (Will do. And you have fun leaning on false beliefs and fairy tales to justify your bigotry and hatred of those who believe differently from you.  Sad, just sad.)



Ryan, your post resonates with Christian love.  I feel it, man.  I really do.


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## vowell462 (Jan 29, 2011)

RealtreeRyan said:


> Religion is man made. A relationship with Jesus was created by God. That is why I CHOOSE to have a relationship. There is proof that God exists...it's all around us. The comprehensiveness of all the details of life in itself could not just come about except by the thought and creation of a higher being...GOD! But...in order to see the proof you have to believe by faith first, that God exists. If you disagree with the fundamentals, you can't believe in all of the other facets of Christianity or of God. I have noticed that all of you non-Christians have a hard time of answering our questions with actual answers...instead...you answer our questions with another descending, sarcastic, rude question! What can you prove? Prove us wrong...where are all of your facts and beliefs. What is your life based on? Your views on life and God and Death are so far out there...I mean honestly...you have no ground to stand on. And the sad part is...it doesnt matter what someone believes...it's people like you who just like to disagree with people. It's disgusting to me how you think people are inherintly good, but yet there are people like you. Funny to me...Rejecting Jesus Christ is the only unforgiveable sin by God. Have fun without Him!


Ryan. If you really step back and think about what you believe, you might find that your views on life, death and god are far out there. You really are sounding like the echo of every southern baptist preacher I've ever heard. You are totally contradicting your own beliefs and you are preaching a replication of what Mr. Opal ring and white buckle shoes said at 11:00am last Sunday.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 29, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Ryan. If you really step back and think about what you believe, you might find that your views on life, death and god are far out there. You really are sounding like the echo of every southern baptist preacher I've ever heard. You are totally contradicting your own beliefs and you are preaching a replication of what Mr. Opal ring and white buckle shoes said at 11:00am last Sunday.



You just did exactly what Ryan described you would do.

I have figured out that you guys don't need us. You are fantastic at proving OUR points for us all by yourselves. 

Please continue.


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## vowell462 (Jan 29, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> You just did exactly what Ryan described you would do.
> 
> I have figured out that you guys don't need us. You are fantastic at proving OUR points for us all by yourselves.
> 
> Please continue.



And you are doing exactly what we described that you would do. Calling your beliefs proof and truth. Your points have yet to be " proven".


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## ted_BSR (Jan 29, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> And you are doing exactly what we described that you would do. Calling your beliefs proof and truth. Your points have yet to be " proven".



I never said my beliefs were proven. Philosophically, it is impossible to prove anything.

That is where faith comes in. I said you are proving our points (as in discussion points) for us. Please continue.


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## vowell462 (Jan 29, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> I never said my beliefs were proven. Philosophically, it is impossible to prove anything.
> 
> That is where faith comes in. I said you are proving our points (as in discussion points) for us. Please continue.



Agreed. Impossible to prove anything. Im guessing the discussion points you are speaking of was my sarcasim at Ryan. If thats it, your correct again. Generally speaking, when I read something that is sarcastic, I will return with a defense being sarcastic. Its in my nature. By the way, Im here for the learning. And as we totally disagree on faith, I still enjoy your post. A little more thought is usually put in to yours over some of the others. Having said that, I will refrain from your sarcastic " please continue" to please you.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 29, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Agreed. Impossible to prove anything. Im guessing the discussion points you are speaking of was my sarcasim at Ryan. If thats it, your correct again. Generally speaking, when I read something that is sarcastic, I will return with a defense being sarcastic. Its in my nature. By the way, Im here for the learning. And as we totally disagree on faith, I still enjoy your post. A little more thought is usually put in to yours over some of the others. Having said that, I will refrain from your sarcastic " please continue" to please you.



I actually coined the "please continue" for a couple other folks.  I will refrain from lumping you into that group moving forward.

I feel that you and can have respectful discussions.


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## vowell462 (Jan 29, 2011)

We absolutley can. I believe it is everyones right to be believe whatever they want. Thats the way it should be IMHO. You will find that I ask more questions about faith than anything. As wierd as it may sound, i enjoy learning.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 30, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Ok vision, time to man up.



I made it 8 pages and found the article full of assumptions and suppositions. Given current science and discovery it's just not possible to come up with an accurate date.


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## atlashunter (Jan 30, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> I made it 8 pages and found the article full of assumptions and suppositions. Given current science and discovery it's just not possible to come up with an accurate date.



Like the assumption that the earliest date would be 3500 BC because kiln fired bricks weren't used prior to that time?  I guess expecting a little intellectual honesty was expecting too much.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 30, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Like the assumption that the earliest date would be 3500 BC because kiln fired bricks weren't used prior to that time?  I guess expecting a little intellectual honesty was expecting too much.



Alwaya gotta through in that personel jab to insult someone, don't you Atlas?

Here's what I have to say about your intelligent discussion - PHLPTTTTTT! (shoot, I just spit all over my monitor!!!)


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## Achilles Return (Jan 30, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> I made it 8 pages and found the article full of assumptions and suppositions. Given current science and discovery it's just not possible to come up with an accurate date.



I find it _quite_ humorous that you are so skeptical of things like this, but the bible - never!


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## atlashunter (Jan 30, 2011)

chicken cow said:


> You are the one who dosent know the History. The tortures that I spoke of did not come from the Bible. It was history out of a books wrote in the 14th and 15th centurys...Not the Bible. When you talk about Christians saying if you Dont Believe what we believe " off w/ your head"..well you must be talking about some of the early Catholic churches. Thats not what I believe, Jesus is the only way to heaven. The part you are talking about stoning people, we'll that was the old -testament...In the new testament Jesus said this....
> 
> << John 8 >>
> American King James Version
> ...



That story was a later addition to the book of John. It isn't in our earliest surviving manuscripts.

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live is also Old Testament but protestants still burned them, or rather women they thought were witches. So the defense that you aren't a catholic or that you don't adhere to the OT falls kind of flat.


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## atlashunter (Jan 30, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> I find it _quite_ humorous that you are so skeptical of things like this, but the bible - never!



Yeah no kidding.


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## aquaholic (Jan 30, 2011)

Amen  you are on brother


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## VisionCasting (Jan 30, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Like the assumption that the earliest date would be 3500 BC because kiln fired bricks weren't used prior to that time?  I guess expecting a little intellectual honesty was expecting too much.



Are you certain kiln fired bricks were not used before then? I am not. Did you know they've found rudimentary batteries in Egyptian tombs? How then can we be certain kiln fired bricks were not used in anther prehistoric periods? Just because archeologists have not yet determined an warlord origin does not affirmatively mean it is not possible for them to have been used prior to 3500 years ago. 

How is that for intellectual honesty? Right back at ya, pal. Get honest with yourself and admit archeology has not yet discovered everything.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 30, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> I find it _quite_ humorous that you are so skeptical of things like this, but the bible - never!



Who said I don't investigate the Bible with vigor and a discerning eye? The more I do, the more I find it stands up to scrutiny. 

There was a time when I too was a big skeptic. My skepticism was based on my own personal bias. I've grown past that.


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## vowell462 (Jan 30, 2011)

chicken cow said:


> Well here is the real question. Do any of you Believe Jesus was real and just wasnt the son of God...or all of it is just made up?



Dont Know. Wasnt present at the time. I can say I believe that the story has been fabricated to a great extent. I can also say that the story is very similar to the greek sun god Horus 500 years earlier. And when I say similar, almost a replication. Since you like to attack me on my history knowledge, why dont you explain your thoughts on that? Enlighten me. And again, your bible verses dont work as a debatable argument.


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## vowell462 (Jan 30, 2011)

Ummm no. Not at all. There is evidence of man walking on the moon. Its on video. This makes it fact. There is evidence that the holocaust happened. Listen, Im am not trying to convince you that you are wrong. Im trying to get a logical explanation as to why you believe what you do. My whole thing on religion is we simply dont have the answers. So when I hear people use the term truth when speaking of the bible, it doesnt make sense. When I read them its like me reading the following statement.... Parenthesis 15:12 " You have been brainwashed". Again, that is not a personal poke at you. I just call it how I see it. Please explain to me why you believe in what you believe. " Its written in the good book" isnt a logical answer.


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## atlashunter (Jan 31, 2011)

Chicken cow you do realize cult members describe the same experience when joining a cult? Just because something feels good doesn't make it true.


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## chicken cow (Jan 31, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Chicken cow you do realize cult members describe the same experience when joining a cult? Just because something feels good doesn't make it true.



I wouldnt know...I have never been to any of you Cult meetings


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## atlashunter (Jan 31, 2011)

chicken cow said:


> I wouldnt know...I have never been to any of you Cult meetings



Too busy with your own.


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## chicken cow (Jan 31, 2011)

I have really enjoyed these conversations but I'm going out of town now and wont have Internet connection for a few days.....But will be up for more debate later, So take it easy fellers


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## atlashunter (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks for taking part. Have a safe trip.


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## atlashunter (Jan 31, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Are you certain kiln fired bricks were not used before then? I am not. Did you know they've found rudimentary batteries in Egyptian tombs? How then can we be certain kiln fired bricks were not used in anther prehistoric periods? Just because archeologists have not yet determined an warlord origin does not affirmatively mean it is not possible for them to have been used prior to 3500 years ago.
> 
> How is that for intellectual honesty? Right back at ya, pal. Get honest with yourself and admit archeology has not yet discovered everything.



From the article:



> Nor are we arguing from silence. There are hundreds of archaeological sites in the ancient Near East which have architectural remains. A number of them
> display layer after layer of architectural remains covering many centuries or even millennia. These architectural remains date from the beginnings of architecture in the ninth millennium down through the entire OT period and even later. Further, baked brick is virtually indestructible; so it would almost certainly be found if it were present.



There is no archeological evidence supporting the idea that towers were built in that area using kiln fired bricks and bitumen mortar in some other prehistoric time.

There is however a convergence of factors supported by the archeological evidence all of which place the possible date within the same time frame.


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## VisionCasting (Jan 31, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> There is no archeological evidence supporting the idea that towers were built in that area using kiln fired bricks and bitumen mortar in some other prehistoric time.



Well then, it's settled.  Archeology has discovered everything there is to discovery, ever.  We can close all the universities, stop all the funding and archeologists everywhere can join ranks unemployed.  There remains nothing left to discovery.

"We haven't found it [yet], therefore it doesn't exist."  Sounds like solid science to me.


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## atlashunter (Jan 31, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Well then, it's settled.  Archeology has discovered everything there is to discovery, ever.  We can close all the universities, stop all the funding and archeologists everywhere can join ranks unemployed.  There remains nothing left to discovery.
> 
> "We haven't found it [yet], therefore it doesn't exist."  Sounds like solid science to me.



By all means keep searching. Maybe you will find evidence that contradicts everything we currently know and confirms your alternate reality. Until then the proper conclusion based on the evidence that we do have is that the story is not historical, especially when you put it in the context of the other biblical stories that lack physical evidence to back them up and run against evidence we do have.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 31, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> By all means keep searching. Maybe you will find evidence that contradicts everything we currently know and confirms your alternate reality. Until then the proper conclusion based on the evidence that we do have is that the story is not historical, especially when you put it in the context of the other biblical stories that lack physical evidence to back them up and run against evidence we do have.



Evidence comes from a crime scene. Science deals with hypotheses and experiments that support or refute the hypotheses.


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