# Bull sluice lake and hooch no baitfish.



## striper commander (Apr 23, 2013)

It looks like the bill did not pass to use baitfish below Morgan falls. Also no baitfish can be used in bull sluice either. You cannot use baitfish from Buford dam all the way to peachtree creek. Just wanted to inform the people using minnows in bull sluice. It looks like the park service and the dnr have the wording a little easier to understand this year. I was hoping I would be able to use gizzards again below Morgan falls but I guess it's not gonna happen.

http://www.nps.gov/chat/planyourvisit/fishing.htm


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## huntandfish0101 (Apr 23, 2013)

For good reason, that fishery needs all the protection it can get.


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## Joe Fishmore (Apr 23, 2013)

Thanks for the update, I was about to start fishing minnows in Bull Sluice.  Coulda gotten into some trouble!


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## MagSPot (Apr 23, 2013)

Cut bait works just as good and its legal. Crazy, most my 30s and 40s come off cut bait live bait is just fun to use and watch hits. Oh well.


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## Dustin Pate (Apr 23, 2013)

So dumb but it is what it is.


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## Dustin Pate (Apr 23, 2013)

MagSPot said:


> Cut bait works just as good and its legal. Crazy, most my 30s and 40s come off cut bait live bait is just fun to use and watch hits. Oh well.



Are you cutting it up before or after you get to the river?


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## MagSPot (Apr 23, 2013)

i leave bait whole in cooler. some times i put small dead shad on a scrounger jig head like a fluke and kill them.


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## mtr3333 (Apr 24, 2013)

Great news!


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## puddlehunter (Apr 24, 2013)

huntandfish0101 said:


> For good reason, that fishery needs all the protection it can get.



Protection from what?


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## fishbum (Apr 24, 2013)

*Live Bait*

Wonder what DNR would have to say about live shad in the tank then cut before going in the water, Fresh works best!


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## panfried0419 (Apr 24, 2013)

Awesome! Great way to protect my favorite paddling fisheries.


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## striper commander (Apr 24, 2013)

I wonder how many trout are being caught in the DH section each year before the 50,000 trout get stocked. I mean if they are stocking that many every year you would think there would be some in there to catch. I guess when the DH season ends people flood the river down there and keep their limit. I guess the stripers must eat thousands and thousands of them also. If y'all love the trout so much why don't y'all get upset at the state for stocking them somewhere they will die once it gets hot. I think the DH is crazy. Stocking that many fish so that you can catch trout for a few months each year before they die from warm water just to make a winter time wading trout fishery.


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## puddlehunter (Apr 24, 2013)

I've never really understood the bait regulations on the hooch.  The only thing I can figure out is that it is in place for one type of fisherman only.  Using live shad that are already in the river does nothing to the Trout fishery, the striper gorge themselves on shad and trout anyway.  It has always kind of baffled me.  If there was a biological reason for it, it would be different.  That section has been turned into an artificial fishery full of fish that shouldn't be there.  The real natural biodiverse fishery is ignored.  The cut bait works just as well especially when it is fresh.  I like to catch a few trout and chunk them or thread them whole after they are dead.  I use a small fly and try to target the smallest trout.  After they are dead if you thread them like a salt bait so you get a little spin and flash, it works like a natural lure in the current, deadly on a good shoal.


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## Cliff Speed (Apr 24, 2013)

striper commander said:


> I wonder how many trout are being caught in the DH section each year before the 50,000 trout get stocked. I mean if they are stocking that many every year you would think there would be some in there to catch. I guess when the DH season ends people flood the river down there and keep their limit. I guess the stripers must eat thousands and thousands of them also. If y'all love the trout so much why don't y'all get upset at the state for stocking them somewhere they will die once it gets hot. I think the DH is crazy. Stocking that many fish so that you can catch trout for a few months each year before they die from warm water just to make a winter time wading trout fishery.



They expect them all to get caught out for one thing. That's the whole meaning of the words "Delayed Harvest" - once DH time is over the bait fishermen come in and keep them all. Plus they stock it with some bigger than normal trout during DH which attracts fly fishermen and bait fishermen. There are multitudes of people who look forward to fishing that DH section every year, because there are only a few wintertime trout fisheries in GA. If they stocked them somewhere else they'd just get caught out too, because that's what most people do with stocked trout is eat them. Take just about any heavily stocked stream in GA that doesn't also have a breeding population in it and by the time the season is closing there's hardly a trout to be found and they don't stock seasonal streams in the off season. Most trout streams in GA are not capable of producing a breeding population. That's why we have a stocking program, and also many of the DHs are in marginal water for trout just like on the Hooch. They get them all caught out so they don't go to waste.


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## RoswellTrout (Apr 24, 2013)

Cliff Speed said:


> They expect them all to get caught out for one thing. That's the whole meaning of the words "Delayed Harvest" - once DH time is over the bait fishermen come in and keep them all. Plus they stock it with some bigger than normal trout during DH which attracts fly fishermen and bait fishermen. There are multitudes of people who look forward to fishing that DH section every year, because there are only a few wintertime trout fisheries in GA. If they stocked them somewhere else they'd just get caught out too, because that's what most people do with stocked trout is eat them. Take just about any heavily stocked stream in GA that doesn't also have a breeding population in it and by the time the season is closing there's hardly a trout to be found and they don't stock seasonal streams in the off season. Most trout streams in GA are not capable of producing a breeding population. That's why we have a stocking program, and also many of the DHs are in marginal water for trout just like on the Hooch. They get them all caught out so they don't go to waste.



Actually if you just go north of Morgan Falls dam that stretch of the river holds trout 100% of the year, and the browns do reproduce there.


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## striper commander (Apr 24, 2013)

RoswellTrout said:


> Actually if you just go north of Morgan Falls dam that stretch of the river holds trout 100% of the year, and the browns do reproduce there.



That's what I'm getting at. There is plenty of winter fishing above the dam. And I don't see over 6,000 people getting there limit before the heat kills them.


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## Cliff Speed (Apr 24, 2013)

RoswellTrout said:


> Actually if you just go north of Morgan Falls dam that stretch of the river holds trout 100% of the year, and the browns do reproduce there.



Right. I was referring to the section below the dam, like Palisades and Paces Mill, etc - the place that is full of E. coli in the summer time.


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## RoswellTrout (Apr 24, 2013)

Cliff Speed said:


> Right. I was referring to the section below the dam, like Palisades and Paces Mill, etc - the place that is full of E. coli in the summer time.



ok, so i'm not sure what your argument is against live shad as bait. I've personally never used live-bait but at the same time don't really see a problem with it.


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## Cliff Speed (Apr 24, 2013)

RoswellTrout said:


> ok, so i'm not sure what your argument is against live shad as bait. I've personally never used live-bait but at the same time don't really see a problem with it.



Oh, actually I wasn't making an argument one way or the other, I was just responding to Striper Commander's statements about if we trout fishermen love trout so much why don't we have a problem with DNR stocking trout where they are destined to die and his thinking the DH is crazy and all that. 

I used live bait (red wigglers and crickets) for trout fishing years ago when I first started with a spinning rod, but I'm strictly a fly fisherman now, and about the only time I fish for stockers anyway is in the winter on DHs when most of my wild trout streams are closed. Or when I'm introducing someone to trout fishing, which is also the only time I use spinning gear, but even then I still don't use live bait. I use plastic worms and catch just as many as I would with real ones. By the way, I don't look down on people who don't fish the way I do, it's just the way I choose.


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## RoswellTrout (Apr 24, 2013)

Cliff Speed said:


> Oh, actually I wasn't making an argument one way or the other, I was just responding to Striper Commander's statements about if we trout fishermen love trout so much why don't we have a problem with DNR stocking trout where they are destined to die and his thinking the DH is crazy and all that.
> 
> I used live bait (red wigglers and crickets) for trout fishing years ago when I first started with a spinning rod, but I'm strictly a fly fisherman now, and about the only time I fish for stockers anyway is in the winter on DHs when most of my wild trout streams are closed. Or when I'm introducing someone to trout fishing, which is also the only time I use spinning gear, but even then I still don't use live bait. I use plastic worms and catch just as many as I would with real ones. By the way, I don't look down on people who don't fish the way I do, it's just the way I choose.



Never heard of plastic worms being used for trout, i'll have to try that out. I generally never use anything other than a blue/silver colored rooster tail, this is a great time of year to trout fish above morgan falls and near Island Ford, I've been catching some nice sized ones and its a lot less crowded than below the dam during this time of year.


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## striper commander (Apr 24, 2013)

And if they want all the trout caught before they die I don't see why it matters what bait is used. I use rapalas and rooster tails for trout and can catch a limit in no time at island ford. I like to use live bait fish while Striper fishing not for trout. If the state is worried about the Striper getting wiped out below the dam they should of made a size limit on them instead of not letting live bait fish be used. I think that would help them the most.


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## rhj4 (Apr 24, 2013)

I am not sure if anyone  has mentioned that one striper can eat its weight in live trout in a few days.
If anyone is interested in preserving the trout fishery below Morgan Falls then just ban fishing with trout but not all live bait. That whole stretch of river is loaded with predator fish for trout. By the beginning of summer I would be surprised if there is a trout left below Morgan Falls.


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## Lebowski (Apr 24, 2013)

The one rod limit is even worse than the ban on live baitfish. Not all anglers have the ability to accurately cast (especially children and seniors) and need the option to utilize multiple rods.


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## shakey gizzard (Apr 24, 2013)

The problem is in catching live trout above the dam and bringing them down to use as live bait below! jmo


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## Lebowski (Apr 24, 2013)

As for the bill you mentioned, HB 869 has passed the legislature and Governor Deal has signed it.  The vast majority of the language in the bill took effect on January 1, 2013, and  includes the provision that will give the Board of Natural Resources authority to consider exceptions to the live bait prohibition on specific trout waters.

The issue is that the National Park Service has a provision in their Code of Federal Regulations that prohibits the use of live bait fish within any of their boundaries, which includes Bull Sluice and the river down to Peachtree Creek.


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## striper commander (Apr 24, 2013)

Thanks for the update.


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## RoswellTrout (Apr 24, 2013)

So is cut bait allowed? If so isn't that a little foolish seeing as though someone could just catch their limit in trout and cut it up?


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## striper commander (Apr 24, 2013)

Yes cut bait is legal.


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## fishingga (Apr 24, 2013)

Jamie, I was told by GA DNR that cut bait was not legal by Fed rules, although legal by GA law, it just might not be enforced.  Go figure.


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## BradMyers (Apr 24, 2013)

Lebowski said:


> The one rod limit is even worse than the ban on live baitfish. Not all anglers have the ability to accurately cast (especially children and seniors) and need the option to utilize multiple rods.



OlCaptain & crew are gonna hate that. It's just plain stupid.


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## Lebowski (Apr 25, 2013)

Agreed. It's a shame to think it's a crime if the Ol Captain wanted to have 2 rods out for carp fishing.


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## RoswellTrout (Apr 25, 2013)

BradMyers said:


> OlCaptain & crew are gonna hate that. It's just plain stupid.



Does that mean you can't have two lines in the water, or can't have two poles? I generally bring one ultra light for trout and one bass rod. Hopefully the law does not exclude this.


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## Cliff Speed (Apr 25, 2013)

RoswellTrout said:


> Never heard of plastic worms being used for trout, i'll have to try that out.



There are several companies that make plastic worms specifically for trout, probably the most popular is Berkeley Power Bait. It has the scent of the powerbait junk in the worm and it catches trout like crazy. Sometimes they swallow the worms, so if you use them and want to catch and release it's best to keep in good contact with the bait. I used to drift them using split shot. Other companies also make unscented worms, and some people actually make their own worms out of those rubber squeezy balls with the tentacles on them that you see at the Dollar Tree, if you know what I'm talking about.

As for the rod limit that other folks were talking about, as far as I know, the rules for all trout waters in GA are one hand held rod. You can certainly bring two rods, you just can't use them at the same time and you can't prop them up on a stick by the bank and watch. You have to be holding one in your hand.

I realize that there are interests of fishing for other species in the river, but I mean, this river is one of the best trout fisheries in the entire country and it is managed as a trout stream, not a striper fishery. It is also, I believe, the southernmost trout stream in the entire country and the only one in an urban setting. It's a really special place. Paces Mill on the DH in particular is where they recently held the fly fishing for veterans day, and it's probably the best place on the river to do this because of the large numbers of fishermen it can accomodate. In addition, the Hooch is one of the most endangered streams in our country due to pollution and other issues. We need to handle it with care, but that doesn't seem to be happening.


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## Joe Fishmore (Apr 25, 2013)

I get that there is alot of controversy over using live bait below Morgan Falls dam (although I still dont understand why), but what I get even less is why there is no live bait allowed in Bull Sluice?  As far as i know, very few people fish for trout in that section.  Technically since its an impoundment on the chattahoochee river shouldn't it be under the same rules as other lakes on the hooch?  I feel like there must be something I am missing.


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## troutkiller2012 (Apr 25, 2013)

catch the 8 trout (a limit) and cut off their heads and use as cut bait.

the tail section and the head will result in 16 baits for one day but the freezer section will hold plenty for future so go and catch them while its cool, put in a zip lock bag......use for cut bait in the future.


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## Mr.Mellons (Apr 25, 2013)

striper commander said:


> It looks like the bill did not pass to use baitfish below Morgan falls. Also no baitfish can be used in bull sluice either. You cannot use baitfish from Buford dam all the way to peachtree creek. Just wanted to inform the people using minnows in bull sluice. It looks like the park service and the dnr have the wording a little easier to understand this year. I was hoping I would be able to use gizzards again below Morgan falls but I guess it's not gonna happen.
> 
> http://www.nps.gov/chat/planyourvisit/fishing.htm



Great news!


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## LOST ON LANIER (Apr 25, 2013)

"The one rod limit is even worse than the ban on live baitfish. Not all anglers have the ability to accurately cast (especially children and seniors) and need the option to utilize multiple rods."

You've got to be kidding me...   Maybe we should issue the fishing challenged a special dynamite permit. I'm sure that's your concern.  Just get it over with and go jugging on Lake Oconee.


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## Dirk (Apr 25, 2013)

Weather live-bait use in Bull Sluice lake is against regulations is very questionable to me as the rule actually says " The use of live bait-fish in the river is prohibited within the park. " and since Bull Sluice lake is unquestionably considered a reservoir, not a river, it is therefore not a river in the park and would not be covered by that rule.

Also the Georgia fishing regulations clearly state:

Impoundments on Trout Streams

Anglers can:

   - Fish for fish species other than trout without a trout license, except on Dockery and Rock Creek lakes.

   - Fish at night, except on Dockery and Rock Creek lakes.

But according to the National park site :

-  Additionally, all resident anglers ages 16 to 64 and nonresident anglers age 16 or older must have a trout stamp.  

- Night fishing is not permitted in the park.

??? As usual the regulations conflict and who knows which to follow. The National park site site says that all GA regultions apply and that would be my defense on one of these vague or conflicting regulations. It says that you can fish for other species than trout on reservoirs other than Dockery and Rock Creek reservoirs but it does not say if anglers fishing for other species can use more than one rod. Since fishermen targetting catfish, bass, crappie, carp, etc. are not regulated to use just one pole AND these anglers are allowed to fish in Bull Sluice for whatever species they are after, I think they would have a good argument that the one rod rule does not apply to them as it is designed specifically for trout fishermen.

Just my 2 cents...


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## troutkiller2012 (Apr 25, 2013)

*Can you say coosa*

Sounds like the Coosa will be busy this year.....


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## Old Dead River (Apr 25, 2013)

a little off topic, because I've heard it both ways, are their shoal bass above morgan falls. I've heard something to the effect that right below buford dam there isn't enough oxygen for them there. 
Are there shoal bass between buford dam and above morgan falls and if so where do they start to appear?


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## Old Dead River (Apr 25, 2013)

so there's at least a population in big creek, i'm guessing this runs into bull sluice?


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## Joe Fishmore (Apr 26, 2013)

Dirk said:


> Weather live-bait use in Bull Sluice lake is against regulations is very questionable to me as the rule actually says " The use of live bait-fish in the river is prohibited within the park. " and since Bull Sluice lake is unquestionably considered a reservoir, not a river, it is therefore not a river in the park and would not be covered by that rule.
> 
> Also the Georgia fishing regulations clearly state:
> 
> ...



This is exactly what I do not understand either, but I talked to a ranger once and he said no minnows in the sluice so no live bait it is.  It doesnt even effect me because I usually just fish lures, but I would like some consistency.


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## olcaptain (Apr 26, 2013)

I can see the headlines now..."Local Deacon and retired Douglas County Educator arrested for Carp Fishing with two poles."

Scandalous!!!! I knew that man was a scoundrel!!


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## Tarpfisher (Apr 26, 2013)

This is great news...

 I'm just glad to see the DNR is willing to put the protect regs in place when needed.


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## ZachMatthews (Apr 26, 2013)

Everyone seems to be viewing the no-live-bait rule and the one-rod-limit as applying strictly to trout, but there are good management reasons for those regulations to apply to stripers as well.

A while back we had a guy who you all know but who I won't name.  He was launching his overly large boat at Morgan Falls and then anchoring mid-channel right across from the cliffs.  The last day I floated by him he had about six rods out, effectively staking claim to the entire width of the river.

By taking up that much water he was forcing every other person to (1) not fish one of the best sections that he was camped out on and (2) have to pull everything in and maneuver to get around him.  

That guy was just downright selfish (and based on his internet shenanigans it looked to me like he had some kind of personality disorder).

The Chattahoochee below Morgan Falls gets paddler traffic in the *thousands* of people a day range all summer long.  Requiring every angler to use only one rod and be in control of that rod makes sense just for purposes of sharing the river and safety.  A lot of those paddlers are little kids.

Now as for live bait; the fact of the matter is the Hooch flows through a city of 5M people and live bait is the easiest way to catch fish period.  There are a finite number of stripers in the river and live bait fisherman--unlike fly or artificial anglers--are literally taking the easiest route to their daily limit on a routine basis.  The DNR has a vested interest in maximizing the number of people who can use the water and enjoy it.  Consequently it makes sense for them to add a higher degree of challenge to the fishing there so as to slow down the catch rate and spread out the potential to catch fish among the highest number of anglers.

Fly/artificial fishing is thus a lot like bow hunting.  It takes more skill and is more difficult, but the people who do it tend to be passionate.  The reason the Hooch has an anti-live-bait rule is the same reason why rifle hunters don't get to hunt deer for as long as bow hunters: the DNR is spreading the resource around and *managing* it so it will still be there year after year.

If live bait were allowed, with the number of potential live bait anglers in Atlanta, arguably it would not take long for the fishery to be wiped clean--certainly of good, trophy fish.  The DNR would have to vastly increase stocking in order to keep up with catch rates, which would have a negative, artificializing effect on the whole fishery.

These are smart, good regs that are being put in place for valid management reasons.

PS I have to take exception to two things mentioned above: the Hooch is neither one of the country's best trout streams nor the most southerly (that would be the Guadalupe in Texas).  The Hooch is to Montana's Big Horn or Madison Rivers as your local Dinosaur Putt-Putt is to Pebble Beach.


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## puddlehunter (Apr 26, 2013)

Cliff Speed said:


> There are several companies that make plastic worms specifically for trout, probably the most popular is Berkeley Power Bait. It has the scent of the powerbait junk in the worm and it catches trout like crazy. Sometimes they swallow the worms, so if you use them and want to catch and release it's best to keep in good contact with the bait. I used to drift them using split shot. Other companies also make unscented worms, and some people actually make their own worms out of those rubber squeezy balls with the tentacles on them that you see at the Dollar Tree, if you know what I'm talking about.
> 
> As for the rod limit that other folks were talking about, as far as I know, the rules for all trout waters in GA are one hand held rod. You can certainly bring two rods, you just can't use them at the same time and you can't prop them up on a stick by the bank and watch. You have to be holding one in your hand.
> 
> I realize that there are interests of fishing for other species in the river, but I mean, this river is one of the best trout fisheries in the entire country and it is managed as a trout stream, not a striper fishery. It is also, I believe, the southernmost trout stream in the entire country and the only one in an urban setting. It's a really special place. Paces Mill on the DH in particular is where they recently held the fly fishing for veterans day, and it's probably the best place on the river to do this because of the large numbers of fishermen it can accomodate. In addition, the Hooch is one of the most endangered streams in our country due to pollution and other issues. We need to handle it with care, but that doesn't seem to be happening.



I don't know what live bait and pollution have to do with one another.  The live bait debate is funny to me, instead of realizing that the Hooch is a special trout and multi species bass fishery and teaming up to protect it, we have this round and round debate about live bait or not, what style of fishing is proper or not..etc.  If the trout,bass, hybrid, striper faithful teamed up etc, then there may be some real progress made.  The Metro Hooch is one of the best funded river preservation projects in the state, so much so that many other very special rivers hardly get a blink as far as funding goes.  The feds putting a scenic river etc and park was a double edged sword, they took away local management and we now have regulations that don't make any sense and contradict one another.


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## puddlehunter (Apr 26, 2013)

ZachMatthews said:


> Everyone seems to be viewing the no-live-bait rule and the one-rod-limit as applying strictly to trout, but there are good management reasons for those regulations to apply to stripers as well.
> 
> A while back we had a guy who you all know but who I won't name.  He was launching his overly large boat at Morgan Falls and then anchoring mid-channel right across from the cliffs.  The last day I floated by him he had about six rods out, effectively staking claim to the entire width of the river.
> 
> ...



I agree with the one rod limit, but that's my style of fishing anyway.  I'm not a bait fisherman so I could care less about that either, I would like to hear from DNR if that is the reason for the live bait regulation though.  I'm not sure the striper fishery would be wiped out since they are very transient, but maybe.  The bass would be fine and the trout are invasive (technically) and put there to take out.  I would suspect there are other factors at play as well.  I could be wrong but it could really be the feds that are pushing the rule, I have noticed that there are not many federally protected parks etc, that allow live bait.  Could be a blanket policy as well.

I also agree with you about the Chattahoochee putt putt course...or maybe poo poo putt putt could also apply!...It doesen't compare to a Montana stream not in a million years


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## puddlehunter (Apr 26, 2013)

troutkiller2012 said:


> Sounds like the Coosa will be busy this year.....



Me thinks they are bit bigger in your local metro trout stream....


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## Cliff Speed (Apr 26, 2013)

ZachMatthews said:


> I have to take exception to two things mentioned above: the Hooch is neither one of the country's best trout streams nor the most southerly (that would be the Guadalupe in Texas).  The Hooch is to Montana's Big Horn or Madison Rivers as your local Dinosaur Putt-Putt is to Pebble Beach.



I wasn't for sure about the most southern stream, but I meant the Hooch was one of the best in the sense of it being ranked in the top 100 by TU, not like top five. Why such disfavor for the Hooch? Putt putt? That's a bit harsh.



puddlehunter said:


> I don't know what live bait and pollution have to do with one another.



I don't recall saying that they did have something to do with each other.


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## ZachMatthews (Apr 26, 2013)

Cliff -

Not trying to be harsh, but I see this a lot with people from Georgia and I think it's important that y'all have perspective, because what winds up happening is we settle for less than we ought to.

Back in the 1970s the Hooch was a blue ribbon trout stream.  It still wasn't anywhere near the top 100 rivers in the country (I am not sure where you're referencing there but TU isn't really organized enough to be issuing rankings, I promise you).  But back then, yes, it had turbidity in the 0.5 range and it supported a wide variety of subaquatic invertebrates and a healthy trout population.

Nowadays the Hooch averages a turbidity reading of about 2.0 ABOVE Morgan Falls, 4X more silted on average than it used to be.  Its gravel substrate is choked with silt and debris from Atlanta's out-of-control growth in the 1990s and 2000s.  NPDES best practices simply were not followed during that period and as a result the Hooch is markedly degraded from what it was both in its natural state, before Buford Dam was constructed, and later when it became a trout stream.

The Hooch's closest analogue should be the Little Red River in Arkansas, which is a southern tailwater and only about 40 miles further north.  That river produced a 40 lb. world record brown trout around the same time the Hooch was taking a nose dive.

From a fun and games, good for the young'uns and teaching anglers perspective, the DH is wonderful.  From a management and riparian habitat perspective, it is pathetic: an admission that we have done so much damage that what used to be a year-round trout fishery can now only support trout in a small segment of the year.  

The reason the Hooch is warm enough for striped bass now is due to turbidity and increased sediment loads, which hold heat in the water and reduce dissolved oxygen.  The Hooch is stable-ish today but it is a far cry from what it was.

Georgian anglers would do well to take off the hometown glasses and travel a little, to places like Montana, California, Arkansas and Tennessee, and get some perspective on the goals they should be working towards with their local fisheries.

So no offense intended, but the attitude that what we have now is somehow great or even good enough... that's dangerous.

Zach


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## skibum (Apr 26, 2013)

I wouldn't show up with any kind of live bait in your tank or your going to get a ticket.  Best to show up with dead bait period.   If I have a can of powerbait on me in the artificial section, even though im not using it, it's still against the law..   Same with live bait in your tank.   I know for a FACT that ole Judda was fishing illegal and just didnt give a crap.  And I know for a fact he was using live bait even though he knew the law had changed.  Just glad he's found another state in which to break the laws..

He's a DB!!


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## Cliff Speed (Apr 26, 2013)

Zack, well you know I did state that the Hooch is also one of the most endangered rivers in our country, so I don't feel as if I look at it with rose colored glasses. I also mentioned that the DH section is full of E. coli in the summer. It has a lot of room for improvement, and we need to do a much better job of caring for it, but it does have some beautiful wild brown trout in the upper tailwater, and some big ones too. I think I probably meant "best" in a different way than you did, and I wish I had a better knowledge of what the neighboring and other states' streams were like, but I just don't have the resources or time for out-of-state fishing. I can barely fit in a half day fishing around Helen per week as it is. LOL. 

I have heard quite a bit of talk about how much better NC and TN manage their trout fisheries, but unfortunately I just don't have a comparison, as you said. The only out of state trout stream I have fished is the Tellico river a few times. Maybe you can hook me up with some work as a guide and we can change my experience. LOL.


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## shakey gizzard (Apr 26, 2013)

Old Dead River said:


> so there's at least a population in big creek, i'm guessing this runs into bull sluice?



No shoalies! Big creek runs into Vickery wich dumps into Hooch wich dumps into Sluice.


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## Old Dead River (Apr 26, 2013)

shakey gizzard said:


> No shoalies! Big creek runs into Vickery wich dumps into Hooch wich dumps into Sluice.



"The shoal bass population in Big Creek (a tributary of the Chattahoochee River which enters just upstream of the Morgan Falls Dam) has reduced genetic diversity compared to two downstream populations, and is highly differentiated (average Gst=0.1556) from a population found just below Morgan Falls Dam."

http://www.nature.nps.gov/water/technicalReports/Southeast/ShoalBass_TechRpt.pdf

that's what i thought until i read that...


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## shakey gizzard (Apr 27, 2013)

Old Dead River said:


> "The shoal bass population in Big Creek (a tributary of the Chattahoochee River which enters just upstream of the Morgan Falls Dam) has reduced genetic diversity compared to two downstream populations, and is highly differentiated (average Gst=0.1556) from a population found just below Morgan Falls Dam."
> 
> http://www.nature.nps.gov/water/technicalReports/Southeast/ShoalBass_TechRpt.pdf
> 
> that's what i thought until i read that...



Who'da thunk! Great read!


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## troutkiller2012 (Apr 29, 2013)

Not real sure the National Park can make law changes legaly without public hearings

We will know soon


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## BradMyers (Apr 29, 2013)

troutkiller2012 said:


> Not real sure the National Park can make law changes legaly without public hearings
> 
> We will know soon



No, but they can enforce existing ones.


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## troutkiller2012 (Apr 29, 2013)

Brad I agree.....


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## franklinZappa (May 23, 2013)

Lebowski said:


> The one rod limit is even worse than the ban on live baitfish. Not all anglers have the ability to accurately cast (especially children and seniors) and need the option to utilize multiple rods.



I think that's only during the Delayed Harvest.


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## ThomasCobb123 (May 23, 2013)

*Yeller Perch catcher*

I have fished that stretch of the river from the "new" park ramp on Azalea Drive to Morgan Falls Dam since 1961. Back then, the ramp and park area was called "rainbow fish camp and sand company". Further down the road was a piece of junk ramp with an old jet fighter plane sitting next to it and little shacks with "river rat people" living in them.  
Trout fishermen, are to me, an odd breed...they want that sublime feeling of wild nature that comes from being in Wyoming or Montana and they will move heaven and earth to have their way. 
In my opinion, that is very good for the river....until they push so far they step on my fun in their zeal for purity.
Using minnows (crappie minnows)on a drag shot rig up there on the river above the dam, deep on the channel intesections has always been a favorite for me as I am a yellow perch fanatic. (I remember locating those ledges and channels with one of the early Lowrance Green Box depthfinders I bought from Everett Roach Sporting Goods there in Buckhead)  
Now I guess, I will have to use red wigglers or plain worms dug out of my yard and crickets for the "yellers" up there in the channels.
A nuisance, but to be expected since the mass influx of yankees and their routines of "this is how we did it back in New York....Vermont, NJ",...etc etc, fill in the blanks.
Nothing an old man like me can do but swallow it, and play the cards I am dealt.  But it's still fun to vent a little on these forums.
I wonder how many of them were around to protect the river back during the days of that insane "Great Atlanta Rambling Raft Race"?  Thank God for old Joe Tanner who put the skids on that massive outdoor drunken orgy and garbage dumping parade. The howls of protest from the "enlightened college sporties", as a bunch of us old timers worked to break that thing up, was a sight to behold.
I've probably got only about 5 more years to live but I plan to enjoy as many of the days as I can on that river.  Don't look for me....I have no fancy boat with signs, I wear no uniforms or patches, and nobody will even care that I'm alive......except the 50-60 yellers I got in the live box.
God bless that river and all who prowl it...in the future as in the past.


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## burtontrout (May 23, 2013)

Zach that is a good perspective! 

 As far as the live bait. Had a coversation with DNR right below the buford dam. I was asking him why do not allow minnows to be fished with. His response was that if the minnows or live bait established in the river it could ruin trout populations. Just an FYI on what I was told.


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## little rascal (May 23, 2013)

*didn't say nothing*

about using live eel's? Just said live bait "fish"! Do you know what a striper does to eel's???


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## ThomasCobb123 (May 23, 2013)

burtontrout said:


> Zach that is a good perspective!
> 
> As far as the live bait. Had a coversation with DNR right below the buford dam. I was asking him why do not allow minnows to be fished with. His response was that if the minnows or live bait established in the river it could ruin trout populations. Just an FYI on what I was told.


Let's see now....I personally know there are bluegill, shellcrackers, yellow perch, largemouth bass, catfish, chain pickerel (jackfish), gar, carp, crappie. all swimming around in that river.
I wonder where this zero brain DNR person thinks they came from if not from minnows....the stork maybe??
And THIS guy is allowed to carry a gun and arrest people?
Gotta' be a yankee...no question about it.


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## stuart smith (May 23, 2013)

ThomasCobb123 said:


> I have fished that stretch of the river from the "new" park ramp on Azalea Drive to Morgan Falls Dam since 1961. Back then, the ramp and park area was called "rainbow fish camp and sand company". Further down the road was a piece of junk ramp with an old jet fighter plane sitting next to it and little shacks with "river rat people" living in them.
> Trout fishermen, are to me, an odd breed...they want that sublime feeling of wild nature that comes from being in Wyoming or Montana and they will move heaven and earth to have their way.
> In my opinion, that is very good for the river....until they push so far they step on my fun in their zeal for purity.
> Using minnows (crappie minnows)on a drag shot rig up there on the river above the dam, deep on the channel intesections has always been a favorite for me as I am a yellow perch fanatic. (I remember locating those ledges and channels with one of the early Lowrance Green Box depthfinders I bought from Everett Roach Sporting Goods there in Buckhead)
> ...



Good read.Them "yellas" are tasty!


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## troutkiller2012 (May 23, 2013)

There really after the guy using Live Bluebacks as I was told by the CNP ranger. So dont hang out with anyone using Live BlueBacks.


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## Dirk (May 23, 2013)

Best not to break the law and I personally have never used Bluebacks in the Hooch. BUT anyone that knows Lanier well would know that there are HUGE schools with literally thousands of Bluebacks within sight of the dam at any given time every day of the year. Hundreds or probably thousands get sucked through the dam (some get chopped up but some don't) and end up in the Hooch alive and swimming ON A DAILY BASIS. And many of these follow the current all the way down to Morgan falls, and then many of them get sucked through there and eventually if they don't get eaten by the Trout/Stripers/Bass/ Catfish/Perch/ etc. many probably make it all the way to WestPoint (which now has large schools of Bluebacks too from what I hear). If you think fish don't get sucked through dams then you are living in some type of dreamworld.............   BlueBacks are FOOD to Trout, not the trouts enemy. Lake Burton is the best large lake in GA for trout fishing and it is LOADED with Bluebacks........ 

Also saying that "minnows", to which most likely is referring to store-bought shiners, would destroy the STOCKED (the Hooch between Lanier and Morgan Falls is the most heavily trout stocked river in Georgia) Trout population is about the most ignorant thing I have ever heard said. I am sure those little minnows are really terrorizing the 8-10 inch stocked trout and killing them by the thousands.


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## LureheadEd (May 23, 2013)

TC123,That's wonderful...
Roach in Buckhead and The Ramblin' Raft Race....Thank you...


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## puddlehunter (May 24, 2013)

burtontrout said:


> Zach that is a good perspective!
> 
> As far as the live bait. Had a coversation with DNR right below the buford dam. I was asking him why do not allow minnows to be fished with. His response was that if the minnows or live bait established in the river it could ruin trout populations. Just an FYI on what I was told.



Funny, ruin a stocked population that when it comes down to it is an invasive species.  

I could care less about if the trout have any forage to eat, the striper have plenty of trout to feed on though.


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## troutkiller2012 (May 24, 2013)

I have been on that river before u were born.  Is it you using the Bluebacks? Good to know.


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## troutkiller2012 (May 24, 2013)

I would hope Big Tom knows his boat is in Jeopardy of being confiscated for using Bluebacks on that river huh? You might have him check with the CNPS. If you need the number its on the website.

The Live bait there Mag got is south of Peachtree creek so your very misrepresented version of the rules on the river are still wrong. 

Hows the trout fishing with BB up north?


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## troutkiller2012 (May 24, 2013)

Hey lets have a public forum on the issue with the CNPS at Zaxbys??

Whata ya say?


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## striper commander (May 24, 2013)

Dirk said:


> Best not to break the law and I personally have never used Bluebacks in the Hooch. BUT anyone that knows Lanier well would know that there are HUGE schools with literally thousands of Bluebacks within sight of the dam at any given time every day of the year. Hundreds or probably thousands get sucked through the dam (some get chopped up but some don't) and end up in the Hooch alive and swimming ON A DAILY BASIS. And many of these follow the current all the way down to Morgan falls, and then many of them get sucked through there and eventually if they don't get eaten by the Trout/Stripers/Bass/ Catfish/Perch/ etc. many probably make it all the way to WestPoint (which now has large schools of Bluebacks too from what I hear). If you think fish don't get sucked through dams then you are living in some type of dreamworld.............   BlueBacks are FOOD to Trout, not the trouts enemy. Lake Burton is the best large lake in GA for trout fishing and it is LOADED with Bluebacks........
> 
> Also saying that "minnows", to which most likely is referring to store-bought shiners, would destroy the STOCKED (the Hooch between Lanier and Morgan Falls is the most heavily trout stocked river in Georgia) Trout population is about the most ignorant thing I have ever heard said. I am sure those little minnows are really terrorizing the 8-10 inch stocked trout and killing them by the thousands.



Dead on dirk.


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## Dustin Pate (May 24, 2013)

If you boys have a personal problem with each other take it to pms and keep it off the forum. This ain't a soap opera. If you think anyone is breaking the law call the DNR and stop the accusations.


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## troutkiller2012 (May 24, 2013)

Dustin.....I agree. 

Back in the mid 80s Ray (RIP) at the Dugout sold trout for bait. Captain Bill (RIP) had a TV show on Smyrna Cable TV "Fishin Fun with Captain Bill" showing stripers caught on buck tails to trout. Mike Mobley was known as the Mobster and there were few stripers on the Chattahoochee up near Morgan Falls. Ken Sturdivant was a great guide on Lanier and Mobley was the Guide on the Etowah and Tennessee rivers. In 1989 we caught three stripers in the three pound range south of 285 and notified Kent Mitchell of the AJC that the stripers had finally made it up that far for the spring run. 

Who would have known in 1985 that today the stripers would have made such  a good showing in the river in 2013. I think the regs are good to go with cut bait and artificial only and one rod per person. I just think the use of an illegal live bait fish like Blue Backs are illegal for a reason as the Ga Regs state. 

If caught using BB on the hooch - I have only heard what can happen. Such as seizure-forfiture and a suspended license. Its just not worth that much to use something the regs state as unlawful to possess in the Chattahoochee.

Hope this helps


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## striper commander (May 25, 2013)

The state is not going to take a boat for using illegal bait. I've never used blue backs in the river though. Since they are legal in West Point you can use them all the way to peachtree creek if you wanted to. They are to small for my liking and I would have to drive all the way to Lanier to buy them. I did not start this thread for all this childish bickering.


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## striper commander (May 25, 2013)

The first stripers ever stocked in West Point were in 90 and 92. And not again until a few years ago!


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## mtr3333 (May 25, 2013)

Dustin Pate said:


> So dumb but it is what it is.



How so?


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## mtr3333 (May 25, 2013)

ThomasCobb123 said:


> I have fished that stretch of the river from the "new" park ramp on Azalea Drive to Morgan Falls Dam since 1961. Back then, the ramp and park area was called "rainbow fish camp and sand company". Further down the road was a piece of junk ramp with an old jet fighter plane sitting next to it and little shacks with "river rat people" living in them.
> Trout fishermen, are to me, an odd breed...they want that sublime feeling of wild nature that comes from being in Wyoming or Montana and they will move heaven and earth to have their way.
> In my opinion, that is very good for the river....until they push so far they step on my fun in their zeal for purity.
> Using minnows (crappie minnows)on a drag shot rig up there on the river above the dam, deep on the channel intesections has always been a favorite for me as I am a yellow perch fanatic. (I remember locating those ledges and channels with one of the early Lowrance Green Box depthfinders I bought from Everett Roach Sporting Goods there in Buckhead)
> ...


I'll be there today! Just going for a look...


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## Dustin Pate (May 25, 2013)

mtr3333 said:


> How so?



Because to say you can't use, for bait, a natural occurring fish that is already in the river (shad or bream) for bait is crazy. How many trout in that section do you know of that will eat a 10 inch gizzard shad or a bream the size of your hand? 

If they want to make it about trout then ban trout for bait fish. The folks complaining about the fisherman using live bait should be complaining about the stripers themselves. Those stripers are eating those stockers like candy.


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## Sweetwater (May 25, 2013)

Note to self: Order some "blueback"hand poured sassy shads along with the regulars...prolly 100 will do. 200 ea 1/2 and 3/4 ounce bullet jigs with the gammie hooks. 

Lemme see...what else...

Oh yeah...Call graphics buddy and order a sign and a tee shirt that says "THIS IS NOT LIVE BLUEBACK HERRING...IT IS MADE OF PLASTIC. NO NEED TO REPORT ME TO DNR...STARING FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME THROUGH BINOCULARS WILL CROSS YOUR EYES."

And..."CROWDING A BOAT AFTER A CAUGHT FISH IS MORE LAME THAN SELF APPOINTED RIVER RANGERS."

And..."BEWARE...ANGLER HAS CROWD ISSUES AND A HALF POUND WEIGHT ON AN 8' SURF ROD. APPROACH AT OWN RISK."


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## Sweetwater (May 25, 2013)

Dustin Pate said:


> Because to say you can't use, for bait, a natural occurring fish that is already in the river (shad or bream) for bait is crazy. How many trout in that section do you know of that will eat a 10 inch gizzard shad or a bream the size of your hand?
> 
> If they want to make it about trout then ban trout for bait fish. The folks complaining about the fisherman using live bait should be complaining about the stripers themselves. Those stripers are eating those stockers like candy.



Like the dolphin that follow bottom fishing charters out of the pass and devour every short snapper tossed back.

Fattening them stripers up nicely though. 

Thanks DNR!


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## mtr3333 (May 25, 2013)

Dustin Pate said:


> Because to say you can't use, for bait, a natural occurring fish that is already in the river (shad or bream) for bait is crazy. How many trout in that section do you know of that will eat a 10 inch gizzard shad or a bream the size of your hand?
> 
> If they want to make it about trout then ban trout for bait fish. The folks complaining about the fisherman using live bait should be complaining about the stripers themselves. Those stripers are eating those stockers like candy.


That's not what they're saying. That's what you are saying. They say no live bait fish. Doesn't say anything about night crawlers or cut bait. This does close some ambiguity issues in many areas. That is smart and protection of a limited resource. There are plentiful striper fisheries throughout the state and few trout water opportunities in comparison. Striper fishing wasn't banned. And, I see this as a good move overall. The trout for bait is not the issue either way now.


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## The Longhunter (May 25, 2013)

striper commander said:


> The first stripers ever stocked in West Point were in 90 and 92. And not again until a few years ago!



I don't know when stripers were stocked in West Point.  I do know that in the mid - 1970's, the occasional striper was caught below Cochran Shoals, usually by bass fishermen in the summer.

There was a even stronger striper fishery in the area of Six Flags near the City of Atlanta sewage outfall.  Biggest problem was that no one could stand to fish that area.

Speculation at the time was that there was a native reproducing population of river striped bass that migrated to cooler waters in the summers, which was later confirmed in the Flint and lower Chattahoochee. River.

One reason I remember all of this so well is because the "smart people" kept explaining that it was mistaken identification, and "explaining" how stripers could never survive the migration or reproduce in the river.  For a while the sightings were visuals, or the result of break offs because the anglers were using such light equipment -- no one was targeting striped bass.

I don't really have a dog in the fight but there is a lot of irony in trying to control a native population of fish to support a non-native introduced species.

I also saw people catching non-largemouth, smallmouth/shoal bass from the Chattahoochee in 1959/1960, which the smart people say didn't happen either.


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## striper commander (May 25, 2013)

I don't know why they are worried about the trout anyways the ones that don't get ate or caught die from the hot water. What it all boils down to is that the NPS has always had a no live bait fish rule in the park area from Buford dam to peachtree creek and the state had different regulations stating you could use live bait starting at Roswell rd. A biologist or someone high up must of brought this to the states attention and it got changed to what the park rules are supposed to be. But the state is working on getting it chsnged back to where live bait can be used again. As much water is being let down the river right now the trout down below Morgan falls will have a better chance of making it longer into the summer. Also letting out a lot of cold water can be a set up for disaster late in the summer if they keep letting all the water out from the bottom of the lake and not the flood gates. I hope they are using the flood gates a good bit. And maybe the lake will get to the proper level so they won't have to let as much water downstream. People should not be criticized because of the way they fish. If I want to use live bait I should not be ridiculed over it on the river. Last year there were several times the water was to hot coming out of Morgan falls even for the Striper.


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## striper commander (May 25, 2013)

I'm not sure when West Point dam was built or others on the hooch were either. But there could have been Striper in the river when the dams were built. And those fish could have reproduced because the original 90 92 stockings have been successfully spawning. I did not think about native fish being in the river as the dams were being built. I believe you about catching them years ago.


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## mtr3333 (May 25, 2013)

striper commander said:


> I don't know why they are worried about the trout anyways the ones that don't get ate or caught die from the hot water.


Sez who?


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## striper commander (May 25, 2013)

Sez me and anybody with any sense. There are a few that live below the dam but that's about it. If they were living then there should of been a lot in the river even before they started stocking the Striper in West Point a few years ago. All those delayed harvest fish are not being caught and ate by Striper. The state even knows this. It's not about the trout.


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## troutkiller2012 (May 25, 2013)

Agree with the Commander on this one " People should not be criticized because of the way they fish. If I want to use live bait I should not be ridiculed over it on the river" 

And believe me we caught stripers in that river in 1985 at 285


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## Old Dead River (May 25, 2013)

a friend of mine recently said that he wished they could've built buford dam differently without resulting in creating a cold water fishery just below it. i agree with him. I'd much rather see a flourishing shoal bass and striper fishery below the dam, esp. in the tailrace area, that's just my opinion


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## Bob2010 (May 25, 2013)

Last time I fished bull sluece the e.coli signs were out and the whole river smelled like pooh. It was bad!


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## troutkiller2012 (May 25, 2013)

BOB - Go to six flags for the "OUTHOUSE" stinch. Man its tough to launch in that with a Hazmat suit on. I mean its piled high deep sometimes on that ramp.


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## mtr3333 (May 26, 2013)

striper commander said:


> Sez me and anybody with any sense. There are a few that live below the dam but that's about it. If they were living then there should of been a lot in the river even before they started stocking the Striper in West Point a few years ago. All those delayed harvest fish are not being caught and ate by Striper. The state even knows this. It's not about the trout.



Well, take it from someone who has fished that stretch of river since the 70's. You are wrong.


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## thedudeabides (Jun 20, 2013)

They need to start stock 50 % browns, 50% rainbow. The browns live in the warm months, and reproduce. Electro-shock surveys have shown that the browns had full stomachs, and the rainbows were empty. Stock browns, they will actually live long enough to grow!


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## StriperrHunterr (Jun 20, 2013)

Seems to me, an outside observer, that the state is interested in tax revenue. There doesn't seem to be a strong biological reason to keep live bait out, so the best answer based on it appearing from multiple people is to slow the harvest and spread it around. If one angler catches 2x the fish, as opposed to 2 anglers catching the same volume, then there is less earned on licensing, hotels, gear purchases, tourist attractions, etc. So you're, in essence, making it seem like there is more chance for more people to catch fish, since they're not taken as quickly as on live bait, which could, in theory, draw more people from further away. 

Just an outsider's opinion. 

That's just the way it sounds to me.


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## Alphafish (Jun 20, 2013)

Dirk said:


> Best not to break the law and I personally have never used Bluebacks in the Hooch. BUT anyone that knows Lanier well would know that there are HUGE schools with literally thousands of Bluebacks within sight of the dam at any given time every day of the year. Hundreds or probably thousands get sucked through the dam (some get chopped up but some don't) and end up in the Hooch alive and swimming ON A DAILY BASIS. And many of these follow the current all the way down to Morgan falls, and then many of them get sucked through there and eventually if they don't get eaten by the Trout/Stripers/Bass/ Catfish/Perch/ etc. many probably make it all the way to WestPoint (which now has large schools of Bluebacks too from what I hear). If you think fish don't get sucked through dams then you are living in some type of dreamworld.............   BlueBacks are FOOD to Trout, not the trouts enemy. Lake Burton is the best large lake in GA for trout fishing and it is LOADED with Bluebacks........
> 
> Also saying that "minnows", to which most likely is referring to store-bought shiners, would destroy the STOCKED (the Hooch between Lanier and Morgan Falls is the most heavily trout stocked river in Georgia) Trout population is about the most ignorant thing I have ever heard said. I am sure those little minnows are really terrorizing the 8-10 inch stocked trout and killing them by the thousands.



Biggest trout I've caught on the hooch (my avatar pic) was on a blueback sebile 95


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## mtr3333 (Jul 5, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Seems to me, an outside observer, that the state is interested in tax revenue. There doesn't seem to be a strong biological reason to keep live bait out, so the best answer based on it appearing from multiple people is to slow the harvest and spread it around. If one angler catches 2x the fish, as opposed to 2 anglers catching the same volume, then there is less earned on licensing, hotels, gear purchases, tourist attractions, etc. So you're, in essence, making it seem like there is more chance for more people to catch fish, since they're not taken as quickly as on live bait, which could, in theory, draw more people from further away.
> 
> Just an outsider's opinion.
> 
> That's just the way it sounds to me.


I think you are making it a bit more complex than necessary. It is simply about using live baitfish in trout waters. Live minnows aren't allowed for trout or any other species in designated trout waters. The issue has become complicated by people looking for loopholes so they can redefine or circumvent the trout water designation for their own use.


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## Duckslayer1 (Jul 5, 2013)

I've had some run ins with trout fisherman on the hooch when im fishing with live bait, i have a plan, just mind your - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - business. I always fish with gizzards and i will continue too, and whats with all the taddle tailing, just fish and have a good time, JESUS


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## OCDawgFan (Jul 5, 2013)

RoswellTrout said:


> Never heard of plastic worms being used for trout, i'll have to try that out. I generally never use anything other than a blue/silver colored rooster tail, this is a great time of year to trout fish above morgan falls and near Island Ford, I've been catching some nice sized ones and its a lot less crowded than below the dam during this time of year.



I've done really well dropshotting pink and brown Power Worms to catch trout.  They like chartreuse and orange sometimes too.


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## Dirk (Jul 6, 2013)

Some people (like me) just want the designations of waters to be an appropriate designation. Waters where a particular species, like trout, is the "PREVALENT" species would be what most people with common sense would agree to designate as a "trout stream". Waters where even with heavy stocking, trout is not the dominant predator/gamefish species should not be considered trout waters in my opinion, and the opinion of most rationally thinking human beings I would think...

I haven't fished that area in a while and may never fish it ever again regardless of the regulations, but it just does not make sense to me to classify waters as trout waters when many other predator species far outnumber the trout and most the people that fish there are after Shoal bass, Spotted bass, Stripers, Catfish or one of the other fish there they are much more likely to catch than a trout. 

How someone could actually think it is the right thing to do to limit the majority of fishermen to trout stream regulations when trout is one of the least likely species they might actually catch in that area is mind-boggling to me, and just doesn't make sense... Then to twist it around into the majority of fishermen that just want to be able to fish for the species they are after in whatever way they normally fish for the species they are after are the bad guys, and trying to twist the regulations to their benefit is absolutely absurd and ridiculous...


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## suuntov (Jul 6, 2013)

I have to agree with Dirk...I just floated this stretch of river this past weekend and guess what...I  didn't see or catch a single Trout on this  "trout stream"...I did however manage to catch 2 small spotted bass and about 6 small Shoal Bass. All were caught with a more or less "Trout" style Panther Martin lure.  
I was on a Trout stream and I didn't catch any Trout!! What the heck!!  I want my Trout stamp money back!!


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## henryc (Jul 6, 2013)

Dirk said:


> Some people (like me) just want the designations of waters to be an appropriate designation. Waters where a particular species, like trout, is the "PREVALENT" species would be what most people with common sense would agree to designate as a "trout stream". Waters where even with heavy stocking, trout is not the dominant predator/gamefish species should not be considered trout waters in my opinion, and the opinion of most rationally thinking human beings I would think...



Dirk,

You make an interesting point. However, if that were the case then you could make a case that many spotted bass and largemouth anglers HATE that Lanier is deemed a 'trophy striper lake" yet they cannot naturally reproduce in that lake and there are way more bass than stripers in the lake. Seems ridiculous and many bass anglers on Lanier would agree with your point. I wished we could get hybrids on Lanier BUT it is a trophy striper lake I am told. Also if the state went by the logic you state above then GA would probably not have a trout stream anywhere in the state...Trout fishing brings in big bucks too. That being said, I gotta be honest and say I like the trout regs on the Hooch below MFD (selfishly). It is sort of like going to a section on a trout stream and making it a "no kill" section.  Not exactly but sort of like it....however I agree it is unfair to many other anglers who enjoy live bait fishing and have grown up doing it way before they called that area a trout stream. I personally think the fair thing to do is just say you can live bait fish but not with trout or herring (since they are not suppose to be down there anyway). However gizzards and threadfin seems to be fair play for live bait fishing. There just ought to be a way that the state can make it fair for all folks.

HC


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## needmotime2fish (Jul 7, 2013)

I've lived in GA for 45+ years, but grew up in southern PA, near some of the country's finest trout streams. My Dad often fished with Joe Brooks (who lived in my home town before he became the  fishing editor of Outdoor Life, a world-renowned fisherman and the author of numerous fishing books) -- before Joe became famous.  
I don't know anything about the PA laws today, but in those days it was legal to use live fish as bait for trout - provided you used only fish native to the stream you were fishing. That allowed flexibility, by permitting anglers to use live bait if they wanted to, but it also protected the integrity of the stream by prohibiting the use of non-native species as bait.
That approach seems like a reasonable and workable compromise, and might satisfy nearly everyone.


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## shakey gizzard (Jul 8, 2013)

needmotime2fish said:


> I've lived in GA for 45+ years, but grew up in southern PA, near some of the country's finest trout streams. My Dad often fished with Joe Brooks (who lived in my home town before he became the  fishing editor of Outdoor Life, a world-renowned fisherman and the author of numerous fishing books) -- before Joe became famous.
> I don't know anything about the PA laws today, but in those days it was legal to use live fish as bait for trout - provided you used only fish native to the stream you were fishing. That allowed flexibility, by permitting anglers to use live bait if they wanted to, but it also protected the integrity of the stream by prohibiting the use of non-native species as bait.
> That approach seems like a reasonable and workable compromise, and might satisfy nearly everyone.



Technically, the trout aren't native!


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## asm (Jun 9, 2014)

Has anyone been fishing at Bulls Sluice Lake recently?  I see some of older posts and reports online, but nothing recent.  Is this still a good spot for bass and trout?


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## bird35 (Jun 9, 2014)

No trout.  The last two times I went I caught one perch.  Water was so shallow I had a tough time getting to and from the boat ramp.  I used to do OK from my kayak but notthis year with the jon boat.


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## WinMag.300 (Jun 9, 2014)

*trout*

hmmm....

Stopped by Paces last Weds. Caught 13 trout up around the 75 bridge.  Just because you dont catch them on corn, worms, or Meps spinners dont mean they are not there.  The ones that live, learn really quick to eat at night, and feed on small natural stuff. All of my fish came on sz 16 caddis nymphs.


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## lampern (Jun 9, 2014)

I bet by August the trout in there are all dead?

Sounds like a good time to keep a few.


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## CatchinBEES (Jun 9, 2014)

I have no issues with the live bait regulations.
May just keep the crowds to a minimum on an extremely over fished area of the river.
I've caught every species of bass populating that area of the river on artificial bait... so can everyone else.


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## Old Dead River (Jun 9, 2014)

I could care less if there was a trout in the state, unless of course it's in a place where a giant largemouth might benefit from it. I don't fish the hooch much but did live near the river and MFD for a year or two... I think this is all absolute nonsense.... nonnative trout fishery being protected and regulated like gold yet very little is done for shoal bass in the Ocmulgee. It's utter hypocrisy.

can the stripers not spawn up the hooch and chesattee from lanier?


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## WinMag.300 (Jun 10, 2014)

shoal bass- ocmulgee....non native to that river as well.  If want to get really technical then we could just put brook trout in instead of rainbows and browns since they were the only true native to that watershed.  

Unlike lots of other resources LOTS of volunteer time, money, and effort is devoted by the trout guys to the trout fishery.  Something the DNR does not recieve for any other fishery in the state.  That extra help goes a long way.  


You would be surprised what fish can do and manage to do to survive.  Come September and October trout will still be caught in that section of river.


I certainly agree with the crowds and other river users being a forefront concern as well.


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## NCHillbilly (Jun 10, 2014)

WinMag.300 said:


> shoal bass- ocmulgee....non native to that river as well.  If want to get really technical then we could just put brook trout in instead of rainbows and browns since they were the only true native to that watershed.
> 
> Unlike lots of other resources LOTS of volunteer time, money, and effort is devoted by the trout guys to the trout fishery.  Something the DNR does not recieve for any other fishery in the state.  That extra help goes a long way.
> 
> ...



Except to go even further, all the stocker brookies are northern-strain brook trout, while the native brookies in northern Georgia are all the separate and distinct  southern Appalachian genotype. So even stocking brook trout is introducing a non-native species.


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## mtr3333 (Jun 10, 2014)

WinMag.300 said:


> hmmm....
> 
> Stopped by Paces last Weds. Caught 13 trout up around the 75 bridge.  Just because you dont catch them on corn, worms, or Meps spinners dont mean they are not there.  The ones that live, learn really quick to eat at night, and feed on small natural stuff. All of my fish came on sz 16 caddis nymphs.



I grew up fishing that stretch of river. It is diverse to say the least. I know from experience what you say is true...



Old Dead River said:


> I could care less if there was a trout in the state, unless of course it's in a place where a giant largemouth might benefit from it. I don't fish the hooch much but did live near the river and MFD for a year or two... I think this is all absolute nonsense.... nonnative trout fishery being protected and regulated like gold yet very little is done for shoal bass in the Ocmulgee. It's utter hypocrisy.
> 
> can the stripers not spawn up the hooch and chesattee from lanier?



BTW, just who told you about the Shoalies in the Ocmulgee? If you could care less, then apply your additional lack of care to the submit button. 



WinMag.300 said:


> shoal bass- ocmulgee....non native to that river as well.  If want to get really technical then we could just put brook trout in instead of rainbows and browns since they were the only true native to that watershed.
> 
> Unlike lots of other resources LOTS of volunteer time, money, and effort is devoted by the trout guys to the trout fishery.  Something the DNR does not recieve for any other fishery in the state.  That extra help goes a long way.
> 
> ...



As you elaborated, there is more to consider from the impact of live bait use in that specific area which is a rare gem for any metropolitan area. 

This area is fine with the management we have now.There are plenty of other places for live bait striper fishermen to play throughout the state. The work that has gone into this fishery is extensive. The latecomers have no sweat in it and want to  because they can't go up to Jones Br. or Martin's Landing for over-the-limit rainbows, then plop a spread of them down river. I know plenty of people catching great stripers using artificial lures.


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## WinMag.300 (Jun 10, 2014)

NCHillbilly said:


> Except to go even further, all the stocker brookies are northern-strain brook trout, while the native brookies in northern Georgia are all the separate and distinct  southern Appalachian genotype. So even stocking brook trout is introducing a non-native species.





Could we not then stock just southern strain brook trout  ( removed part of previous post because I was incorrect in the strain of stripers stocked in west point.)


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## striper commander (Jun 10, 2014)

They are gulf strain. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-336844897.html


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## WinMag.300 (Jun 10, 2014)

*corrected.*

I did not know they were stocked in West Point, knew further south they were. Thanks for the link and I stand corrected. 

So they are reintroduced natives.


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## mtr3333 (Jun 10, 2014)

Even the striper strain issue shouldn't detract from the real issue of how this particular stretch is unique and there are multitudes of options for many different sportsmen as things are now. And, there also are numerous other options for using live baitfish throughout the state and very close to this part of the Hooch.


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## lampern (Jun 10, 2014)

Don't see why the state cannot replace the stocked rainbows (non native) with stocked brook trout (native).

The stripers seem a native fish as well


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## WinMag.300 (Jun 10, 2014)

*lampern*



NCHillbilly said:


> Except to go even further, all the stocker brookies are northern-strain brook trout, while the native brookies in northern Georgia are all the separate and distinct  southern Appalachian genotype. So even stocking brook trout is introducing a non-native species.



see above.


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## Old Dead River (Jun 12, 2014)

the trout is non-native to that stretch of the river, correct? what is it going to hurt allowing striper fishermen to fish livebait in this area? how's that gonna hurt the trout.

the shoal bass's habitat is limited and more than likely declining, before lake lanier they were abundant throughout much of the hooch, particularly in areas which are now too cold for them due to the dam. I like to eat trout, but I'd rather watch you bream fish than fish for them. imho, the shoal bass is by far and away a superior fish and perhaps the hardest fighting fish that swims in this state.


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## The Longhunter (Jun 12, 2014)

Old Dead River said:


> imho, the shoal bass is by far and away a superior fish and perhaps the hardest fighting fish that swims in this state.



Actually, that would be a mudfish.  Ol' grinner will break tackle that will stop any bass in its tracks.


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## mtr3333 (Jun 12, 2014)

Old Dead River said:


> the trout is non-native to that stretch of the river, correct? what is it going to hurt allowing striper fishermen to fish livebait in this area? how's that gonna hurt the trout.
> 
> the shoal bass's habitat is limited and more than likely declining, before lake lanier they were abundant throughout much of the hooch, particularly in areas which are now too cold for them due to the dam. I like to eat trout, but I'd rather watch you bream fish than fish for them. imho, the shoal bass is by far and away a superior fish and perhaps the hardest fighting fish that swims in this state.





The Longhunter said:


> Actually, that would be a mudfish.  Ol' grinner will break tackle that will stop any bass in its tracks.



As usual, ODR is RONG!. (I borrowed that last bit from the PF)

Record Brown 18 lbs 6 oz.

Record Rainbow  17 lbs 8 oz.

Shoal Bass  8 lbs 3 oz.

Here's a more complete listing of even more dominant fighting fish in Georgia waters. The record shad is as big as the record shoalie.

http://www.landbigfish.com/staterecords/records.cfm?state=Georgia


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## Old Dead River (Jun 12, 2014)

mtr3333 said:


> As usual, ODR is RONG!. (I borrowed that last bit from the PF)
> 
> Record Brown 18 lbs 6 oz.
> 
> ...



I'm wrong about best fighting fish? get real, Mike. You're wrong about bed fishing, wrong about biology and fisheries management, and you hold bass incorrectly when you grip them as evidenced by your many photos.

why don't you answer my real question, trout were non native to the section of the hooch that they are now being propped up special interests style, correct? The development of lake lanier made the water below Buford dam cold enough to where trout that would typically exist in the northern reaches of the river sustainable in the metro atl area? So it's a non native population that wouldn't be there if not for the dam changing the overall the ecology of the river, and you're telling me that people can't use livebait below morgan falls, the section that is warmer and holds a lot of large predator fish.

just what is so pernicious about that nice fellow with the good looking girlfriend using trout or herring for stripers in that section of the river?

p.s. something tells me you've never caught a shoal bass


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## Old Dead River (Jun 12, 2014)

The Longhunter said:


> Actually, that would be a mudfish.  Ol' grinner will break tackle that will stop any bass in its tracks.



everyone knows that, but a sub pound shoal bass can double a medium heavy bass rod over like it's no tomorrow. they are a very strong fish that fights like a smallmouth bass. riverine fish like that are tough. it has amazed me many times how tiny shoal and spotted bass caught in or near current can make you think you have a lunker when you've only got a dink.


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## mtr3333 (Jun 12, 2014)

Old Dead River said:


> I'm wrong about best fighting fish? get real, Mike. You're wrong about bed fishing, wrong about biology and fisheries management, and you hold bass incorrectly when you grip them as evidenced by your many photos.
> 
> why don't you answer my real question, trout were non native to the section of the hooch that they are now being propped up special interests style, correct? The development of lake lanier made the water below Buford dam cold enough to where trout that would typically exist in the northern reaches of the river sustainable in the metro atl area? So it's a non native population that wouldn't be there if not for the dam changing the overall the ecology of the river, and you're telling me that people can't use livebait below morgan falls, the section that is warmer and holds a lot of large predator fish.
> 
> ...



You are absolutely wrong again on all counts.


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