# Automatic Salvation ?



## Lowjack

Many believe that all you need is to believe in Christ and You are saved"
Did Paul Believe it that way , when he wrote ?

"It is not that I have already taken hold of it (the prize of eternal life) or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ (Jesus). Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession. Just one thing: forgetting what lies behind but straining forward to what lies ahead, I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God's upward calling, in Christ Jesus." 
Philippians 3: 12-14


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## Inthegarge

Kind goes along with the "work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling".......RW


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## ronpasley

Inthegarge said:


> Kind goes along with the "work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling".......RW





Philippians 2:12
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

We have a job to do.


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## Israel

Just don't forget the next verse:

Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

When God says "believe" we need to ask him what he's talking about...for if he says it is sufficient as in:

Joh 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 

We dare not try and make it something else.

What "I" work for avails nothing...what Christ has already done and demonstrates through us is all that matters.
It is a thing totally foreign to the natural man, that God is pleased when we agree that everything the "I" can do is futile, and is to be reckoned as dead. 
The new man walks into the works already prepared, watching his Lord and doing, not what "he thinks ought to be done", or what he figures God would want, or what Jesus might do...but does what he sees his Lord doing.

Joh 5:19  Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.


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## ronpasley

Israel said:


> Just don't forget the next verse:
> 
> Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
> 
> When God says "believe" we need to ask him what he's talking about...for if he says it is sufficient as in:
> 
> Joh 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
> 
> We dare not try and make it something else.
> 
> What "I" work for avails nothing...what Christ has already done and demonstrates through us is all that matters.
> It is a thing totally foreign to the natural man, that God is pleased when we agree that everything the "I" can do is futile, and is to be reckoned as dead.
> The new man walks into the works already prepared, watching his Lord and doing, not what "he thinks ought to be done", or what he figures God would want, or what Jesus might do...but does what he sees his Lord doing.
> 
> Joh 5:19  Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.



Amen Israel, this is what are preacher preached about sunday.


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## farmasis

Lowjack said:


> Many belief that all you need is to believe in Christ and You are saved"
> Did Paul Believe it that way , when he wrote ?
> 
> "It is not that I have already taken hold of it (the prize of eternal life) or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ (Jesus). Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession. Just one thing: forgetting what lies behind but straining forward to what lies ahead, I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God's upward calling, in Christ Jesus."
> Philippians 3: 12-14


 
Do you think the prize was heaven?

I don't think it is. I think that the crown Paul was referring to is the reward he would recieve for doing the work of Christ. I don't see why we would be given a crown for acceptting a free gift from God.


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## SneekEE

I believe all you have to do is love the lord with all your heart and you will be saved. If you love the lord with all your heart, then you heart will see to the rest.The way i see it works will not save anyone, God does that,through faith.And if God does that, then the person will have the works as evidence of what God has done....even then it is God dooing the works through the one He saved.So He gets all the glory.

But since you brought up Paul, I was reading somthing the that talked about Paul speaking of his salvation from sin 5 different times. The article said this....

First, Paul would tell us that he was saved from sin before the world began. This is salvation from the PLAN of sin.

"Who [God] hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." II Tim.1:9

Second, Paul would tell us that he was saved from sin when Christ Jesus died on the cross of Calvary. This is salvation from the PENALTY of sin.

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." I Tim.1:15

Third, Paul would tell us that he was saved from sin when the Holy Spirit regenerated him and gave him a new nature. This is salvation from the POWER of sin.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost." Titus 3:5

Fourth, Paul would tell us that he was saved from sin whenever he kept in memory the gospel that he had preached. This is salvation from the PRACTICE of sin.

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel … by which also ye are saved if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." I Cor. 15:1-2

Finally, Paul would tell us that he wasn't saved yet, but that he would be completely saved from sin some day in the future. This is salvation from the PRESENCE of sin.

"And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed." Romans 13:11

These five passages from the epistles of Paul illustrate the work of salvation from five different perspectives. These are the five phases of God's glorious salvation from sin through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now that aint my teaching, realy havnt even had a chance to think about it, ran accross it last night,but I did find it interesting. Now if they are saying that Paul was saved 5 diferrent times then I definatly dissagree.Just thought you may find it interesting??


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## gordon 2

Lowjack said:


> Many belief that all you need is to believe in Christ and You are saved"
> Did Paul Believe it that way , when he wrote ?
> 
> "It is not that I have already taken hold of it (the prize of eternal life) or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ (Jesus). Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession. Just one thing: forgetting what lies behind but straining forward to what lies ahead, I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God's upward calling, in Christ Jesus."
> Philippians 3: 12-14



I think Paul did not believe in that way. He believed in being In The Way and striving to stay there and to creat there. What Paul refers a upward calling is not a call to what may take place after death, but rather what Jesus calls all of us to vision ( and straining ahead in this respect) in His Kingdom. Perhaps what Paul alludes to is straining ahead, building, creating in the New Kingdom which must be created by the faithful.

 I am inclined to suspect that what is salvation here is being In The Way, or being a deciple of Jesus, or being in the Spirit, or being a citizen of The Kingdom of God. Salvation is not only what my be the saints reward or joy after physical death. It can be said that salvation is communion with God as we live day in day --out.


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## earl

John 3: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.                                                                                                                                         -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Of course that was only Jesus talking .


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## Israel

earl said:


> John 3: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
> 
> 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
> 
> 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
> 
> 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.                                                                                                                                         -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Of course that was only Jesus talking .



earl, ya know, when the spirit is so provoked within you, he's no less wondrous and beautiful than when any other apostle speaks.


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## gordon 2

Israel said:


> earl, ya know, when the spirit is so provoked within you, he's no less wondrous and beautiful than when any other apostle speaks.



Amen.


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## emtguy

Israel said:


> Just don't forget the next verse:
> 
> Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
> 
> When God says "believe" we need to ask him what he's talking about...for if he says it is sufficient as in:
> 
> Joh 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
> 
> We dare not try and make it something else.
> 
> What "I" work for avails nothing...what Christ has already done and demonstrates through us is all that matters.
> It is a thing totally foreign to the natural man, that God is pleased when we agree that everything the "I" can do is futile, and is to be reckoned as dead.
> The new man walks into the works already prepared, watching his Lord and doing, not what "he thinks ought to be done", or what he figures God would want, or what Jesus might do...but does what he sees his Lord doing.
> 
> Joh 5:19  Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.[/QUOTE]
> 
> thats why jesus replied nothing to pilate...because God did'nt speak.
> See jesus did nothing except the father did it first.
> 
> The " fight" or " struggle" is within ourselves, it me trying to get rid of my old sin nature and taking on the new nature of the father...its a lifes battle, the flesh is hard to put down, but at the end of the way if we have fought the fight we will have eternal security with him forever.
> You are born again at the alter but you are saved every day...its a continuios walk.
> You know even Jesus had to fight the battle, his fleshly life sure did'nt wana go to the cross and he sweated blood fighting to overcome his flesh and in doing so gave us hope for man.
> 
> just my 2 cents


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## emtguy

Lowjack said:


> Many believe that all you need is to believe in Christ and You are saved"Did Paul Believe it that way , when he wrote ?
> 
> "It is not that I have already taken hold of it (the prize of eternal life) or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ (Jesus). Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession. Just one thing: forgetting what lies behind but straining forward to what lies ahead, I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God's upward calling, in Christ Jesus."
> Philippians 3: 12-14



isnt that like saying all you have to do to be a car is stand in the garage?


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## Ronnie T

I don't know when or where it happened, but something has happened that isn't pretty.
We've become so self-absorbed that we look for shortcuts in everything.
We don't want to drive 55 mph so we figure out that we can actually drive 62 and still not get a ticket.

Christianity is about becoming different.  About wanting to be like Christ.  It is not about automatic salvation.  It isn't about finding that speed you can travel without getting a ticket.  It's about living a life filled with the joy of God's grace and mercy.
If you, or someone else, isn't living with that purpose, you ain't got nothing except yourself.


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## thedeacon

Ronnie T said:


> I don't know when or where it happened, but something has happened that isn't pretty.
> We've become so self-absorbed that we look for shortcuts in everything.
> We don't want to drive 55 mph so we figure out that we can actually drive 62 and still not get a ticket.
> 
> Christianity is about becoming different.  About wanting to be like Christ.  It is not about automatic salvation.  It isn't about finding that speed you can travel without getting a ticket.  It's about living a life filled with the joy of God's grace and mercy.
> If you, or someone else, isn't living with that purpose, you ain't got nothing except yourself.



How true you are.

Its not about trying to find out how far we can stand from Jesus and still go to heaven. It's about wanting to stand as close to him as possible.

Its not about worring about what is necessary to be saved. Its about loveing God so much we want to do everything we possible can without looking at it like "its what I have to do."

Its not just about obeying the commands its about wanting to show our love and wanting to obey without argument.

Its not about learning with our brain but with our hearts.

Its not about "going to Chruch???" its about being the Church.

Its not about loveing the world because that is what God wants. Its loveing because, that is just the kind of person Christ has made you.

Its not about nic picking, its about doing, standing up, standing tall, standing firm, holding tight, keeping on, happy, smileing, joyful, working, learning, teaching, receiving and giving, loving and liking, helping, praying, serving, walking in the light, stepping up to the plate, saving ourselves showing others how to save themselves, making Jesus the focus, accepting his love.

Do not use any mortal as a guide, go streight to the King, let him be your example.

No such thing as automatic salvation. 

Jesus said, I am the way and that suits me fine.


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## FritzMichaels

I have never in my life heard such philosophical mumbo jumbo in my whole life. 
It's a wonder that anybody EVER receives Christ after reading this kind of stuff. 
I am glad that I am not lost... if I were, I surely wouldn't find salvation in here...

Are you people philosophers? I thought Socrates and Plato were dead.

i came in looking to ask a questions about joining an Orthodox Greek Church in the Lula 
of GA area...


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## centerpin fan

FritzMichaels said:


> i came in looking to ask a questions about joining an Orthodox Greek Church in the Lula
> of GA area...



I'd try Gwinnett Co or Athens.


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## Dominic

FritzMichaels said:


> i came in looking to ask a questions about joining an Orthodox Greek Church in the Lula of GA area...




You can try Saint Timothy Orthodox Church in Toccoa about 30 miles from you.

Now Holy Transfiguration Greek Orthodox Church in Marietta has about the best Greek festival  in the state.

Unfortunately or luckily (I think the later) you are not going to find a Greek Orthodox Church on ever other street corner.

Also centerpin fan should be a good source for you.


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## Israel

FritzMichaels said:


> I have never in my life heard such philosophical mumbo jumbo in my whole life.
> It's a wonder that anybody EVER receives Christ after reading this kind of stuff.
> I am glad that I am not lost... if I were, I surely wouldn't find salvation in here...
> 
> Are you people philosophers? I thought Socrates and Plato were dead.
> 
> i came in looking to ask a questions about joining an Orthodox Greek Church in the Lula
> of GA area...



Welcome Fritz.


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## gordon 2

FritzMichaels said:


> I have never in my life heard such philosophical mumbo jumbo in my whole life.
> It's a wonder that anybody EVER receives Christ after reading this kind of stuff.
> I am glad that I am not lost... if I were, I surely wouldn't find salvation in here...
> 
> Are you people philosophers? I thought Socrates and Plato were dead.
> 
> i came in looking to ask a questions about joining an Orthodox Greek Church in the Lula
> of GA area...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumbo_jumbo_(phrase)

The phylosopy is more germanus, latin and english-american than greek. Jeremie Bentam, Hobes, Luther, George Orwell, Eisenhower, Mash, Family Guy etc...

Plato is indeed dead since the US and European bank crises and the market retirement fund turmoil. Lots of folk must return to planting crops in their own back yards instead of sunning themselves with that old greek mumbo jumbo and aristotle.


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## Inthegarge

Please reread what Earl posted. It is the WORD... Also think about this verse.....1 John 3:7  
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.    RW


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## Randy

farmasis said:


> Do you think the prize was heaven?
> 
> I don't think it is. I think that the crown Paul was referring to is the reward he would recieve for doing the work of Christ. I don't see why we would be given a crown for acceptting a free gift from God.


Exactly.  Paul was not seeking salvation but seeking to follow the will of God as well as he could.  That should be the desire of all christians but it has little to do with salvation.  Salvation comes first.  Growth in God's word is continuous after salvation, or at least should be.


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## FritzMichaels

Ha! I am just messing with you good folks... I like to clown around a little bit. Although what I read did sound a little bit like Aristotle...


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## FritzMichaels

centerpin fan said:


> I'd try Gwinnett Co or Athens.



Yep, I dont think they got any up this ways...


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## Lowjack

I think it is about staying Faithfull, no automatic Salvation as some preach.

For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.  I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.
2 Timothy 4:6-8

I've been around long enough to know some men and women whose lives were totally sold out to God a few years ago but who have since walked off the track in the middle of the race. They've given up. They've lost their longing for God and all He is. They're AWOL from the Christian life . . . 

The fear of following in their footsteps haunts me. It should you, too. The possibility is real for all of us unless we allow our hearts to be completely gripped by God . . . today- now. The faithfulness of my walk with God in the next year and the next decades depends on my willingness to stay current with God. In a word-to stay in relationship with Him. 

I never want to lose the grip God's greatness has on my life and the supreme privilege it is to be in relationship with Him and to serve Him faithfully till the day I am welcomed into His presence. That passion compels me. It keeps me very honest and very humble before God. 

The last thing I want to do is crawl across the finish line a defeated, derailed Christian or worse-give up the race before my life is over. I want to break that tape with arms high and my face to the sun and say with the apostle Paul, "I have finished the course; I have kept the faith" (2 Timothy 3:7). 

So what can we do now to ensure that finish line victory? We can get back to basics: Honestly answer these seven questions: 

Do I hunger after God? 
Does God's Word govern my life? 
Do I grieve over sin? 
How quickly do I repent when I see my wrong?
Am I sensitive to the Spirit's prompting me? 
Do I obey? 
Is my faith growing?

Return to these questions regularly and ask God to help you every morning to run the race.


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## Ronnie T

Randy said:


> Exactly.  Paul was not seeking salvation but seeking to follow the will of God as well as he could.  That should be the desire of all christians but it has little to do with salvation.  Salvation comes first.  Growth in God's word is continuous after salvation, or at least should be.



I completely disagree that you can seperate one from the other.
Paul WAS seeking heaven.  That's what he said.  
We've allowed people to pervert our minds to the point that we cannot honestly rationalize our relationship with our Lord.
You cannot get salvation from a vending machine.
Jesus told Nicodemus that those who believe in Him would not parish - but He also told Him that unless a person is born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

You can say you believe Jesus is God's son, but until you give your life to Him, you're going to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- when you die.  
You can tell someone to pray this prayer and you'll be saved, but until they give their life to Jesus Christ He's not going to accept them into heaven.

If a person isn't living with Christ on earth, that person is certainly not going to be with Christ in heaven.

"If you walk in the light as Jesus is in the light, the blood of Christ will continue to cleanse you of your sins.

Whatever you or anyone else might have done 27 years ago to cause someone to tell you that you are saved and will be spending eternity in heaven, know this..... if Jesus Christ and the Spirit has not entered your life and you have not giving yourself lock, stock, and barrel to Christ as Lord and Savior, what you did 27 years ago didn't even happen. 
It didn't happen.
God is not one to be mocked.
Neither is His Son.
If you belong to Christ, you will know it "today"..... you won't have to search your past to find a day in the mist of your youth.

We got too many teachers in the church and not enough disciples who are intent on studying to show themselves approved.


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## hawglips

Mark 16: 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved

Matt. 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 19: 16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 

James 2: 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 
  18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 
  19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 
  20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 

Matthew 25: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 
  34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 
  35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 
  36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me....
 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 
  42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 
  43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.


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## earl

WOW !!!!! From  posts 25 & 26  ,I would venture to say there will be a whole slew of Christians in he!! .


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## Ronnie T

Lowjack said:


> I think it is about staying Faithfull, no automatic Salvation as some preach.
> 
> For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.  I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.
> 2 Timothy 4:6-8
> 
> I've been around long enough to know some men and women whose lives were totally sold out to God a few years ago but who have since walked off the track in the middle of the race. They've given up. They've lost their longing for God and all He is. They're AWOL from the Christian life . . .
> 
> The fear of following in their footsteps haunts me. It should you, too. The possibility is real for all of us unless we allow our hearts to be completely gripped by God . . . today- now. The faithfulness of my walk with God in the next year and the next decades depends on my willingness to stay current with God. In a word-to stay in relationship with Him.
> 
> I never want to lose the grip God's greatness has on my life and the supreme privilege it is to be in relationship with Him and to serve Him faithfully till the day I am welcomed into His presence. That passion compels me. It keeps me very honest and very humble before God.
> 
> The last thing I want to do is crawl across the finish line a defeated, derailed Christian or worse-give up the race before my life is over. I want to break that tape with arms high and my face to the sun and say with the apostle Paul, "I have finished the course; I have kept the faith" (2 Timothy 3:7).
> 
> So what can we do now to ensure that finish line victory? We can get back to basics: Honestly answer these seven questions:
> 
> Do I hunger after God?
> Does God's Word govern my life?
> Do I grieve over sin?
> How quickly do I repent when I see my wrong?
> Am I sensitive to the Spirit's prompting me?
> Do I obey?
> Is my faith growing?
> 
> Return to these questions regularly and ask God to help you every morning to run the race.




Amen Amen Amen.

That's why Jesus died on the cross.
Not so a bunch of stupid, lazy people might save their hides.
Not so we parents might get our children saved when they're 10 so we won't have to worry about them anymore.
Christ died so that we could go to God.  Not to get you a free ticket for a trip.


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## Randy

Ronnie T,
I think you miss understood what I said?  You receive salvation the day you "accept Jesus Christ as your savior" as some say.  Even some religions like the Baptist believe that once you "accept Him" you are written in the book and "no matter what happens after that"  you are in.  Now that is a whole nother subject but..

So you receive that salvation then and everything after that is your christian desire to more closely follow God.  Some, like Paul, never seem to get satisfied enough in their walk and are always looking for a closer relationship.  Some are "hot" for a month or a year and then lose interest in "maintaining" that relationship.  As I stated in the "simple" thread.  It was simple for me to believe in Jesus Christ.  What is hard is to maintain my day to day relationship.  There are so many worldly things that want to pull me away.

In the original post Paul says "since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ (Jesus)."  So Paul had salvation.  Jesus Christ had taken possession of his soul.  However, Paul did not consider himself to have taken possession of his new salvation because he wanted a perfect maturity in his relationship with Jesus Christ.  That is as I said earlier what every christian should want but the things in this world tend to pull us away.


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## Lowjack

Ronnie T said:


> I completely disagree that you can seperate one from the other.
> Paul WAS seeking heaven.  That's what he said.
> We've allowed people to pervert our minds to the point that we cannot honestly rationalize our relationship with our Lord.
> You cannot get salvation from a vending machine.
> Jesus told Nicodemus that those who believe in Him would not parish - but He also told Him that unless a person is born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.
> 
> You can say you believe Jesus is God's son, but until you give your life to Him, you're going to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- when you die.
> You can tell someone to pray this prayer and you'll be saved, but until they give their life to Jesus Christ He's not going to accept them into heaven.
> 
> If a person isn't living with Christ on earth, that person is certainly not going to be with Christ in heaven.
> 
> "If you walk in the light as Jesus is in the light, the blood of Christ will continue to cleanse you of your sins.
> 
> Whatever you or anyone else might have done 27 years ago to cause someone to tell you that you are saved and will be spending eternity in heaven, know this..... if Jesus Christ and the Spirit has not entered your life and you have not giving yourself lock, stock, and barrel to Christ as Lord and Savior, what you did 27 years ago didn't even happen.
> It didn't happen.
> God is not one to be mocked.
> Neither is His Son.
> If you belong to Christ, you will know it "today"..... you won't have to search your past to find a day in the mist of your youth.
> 
> We got too many teachers in the church and not enough disciples who are intent on studying to show themselves approved.



Amen And Amen !


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## Lowjack

I'm afraid with the lack of knowledge I have seen among Believers they are going to miss out on many Rewards, Most think Heaven in the ultimate reward, lets see what you think after you read this ?

 The Scriptures speak of five crowns that will be awarded the believer whose life has been faithful to the Lord. These crowns are the victor's crowns (stephanos), not to be confused with the kingly crown (diadema), which is Christ's alone. These five crowns include:

(1) The Crown of Life or "Martyr's Crown" (Js. 1:12; Rev. 2:10). The believer must love the Lord even more than his own life and be faithful unto death if he is to receive the crown of life. Jesus said, "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it" (Mk. 8:35). Norman H. Camp notes, "during the coming Great Tribulation many will receive the crown of life because they will be slain for the Word of God and for the testimony which they hold (Rev. 6:9-11)."

(2) The Crown of Glory or "Pastor's Crown" (1 Pet. 5:2-4). This is for the pastor who feeds the flock and does not lord it over "God's heritage." He is an example to others and not in the ministry for profit or financial gain. It will be awarded by the "chief shepherd" when He appears.

(3) The Crown of Rejoicing or "Soul Winner's Crown" (1 Thess. 2:19, 20; Phil. 4:1). This crown is given to those who win souls for the Lord. The winning of souls should be every Christian's responsibility. The Apostle James explains: "He which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins" (Jas. 5:20).

(4) The Crown of Righteousness for those who "love His appearing" (2 Tim. 4:8). This is the crown for those who are looking for the "blessed hope," the return of the Lord for His own at the Rapture. They are living "soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----. 2:12).

(5) The Incorruptible Crown or "Victor's Crown" (1 Cor. 9:25-27). This is the crown for those who practice self-control over their impulses and desires. Paul was careful to keep his body in subjection, "lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" (1 Cor. 9:27). Paul was not afraid that he might lose his salvation, but that he might be (adokimos) "disqualified for the prize" (NIV). Here Paul is thinking of rewards that would be given at the judgment seat of Christ.

In Revelation 4:10 the saints are seen casting "their crowns before the throne." These are not for the believer to boast in, nor take permanent possession of, but to submit unto the Lord in loving adoration. Paul told the Corinthian believers, "For ye are bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (1 Cor. 6:20). The casting of crowns at the Savior's feet will be one act of glorification that will be the eternal destiny of every believer throughout eternity. D.M. Panton, in his study The Judgment Seat of Christ, observes that "Scripture regards each saved soul as a runner racing, an athlete wrestling, a warrior fighting, a farmer sowing, a mason building, a fugitive flying, a besieger storming; and all this strenuous intensity rests on a fundamental of revelation--'that God is, and that He is a rewarder' (Heb. xi. 6).'"


----------



## Ronnie T

Randy said:


> Ronnie T,
> I think you miss understood what I said?  You receive salvation the day you "accept Jesus Christ as your savior" as some say.  Even some religions like the Baptist believe that once you "accept Him" you are written in the book and "no matter what happens after that"  you are in.  Now that is a whole nother subject but..
> 
> So you receive that salvation then and everything after that is your christian desire to more closely follow God.  Some, like Paul, never seem to get satisfied enough in their walk and are always looking for a closer relationship.  Some are "hot" for a month or a year and then lose interest in "maintaining" that relationship.  As I stated in the "simple" thread.  It was simple for me to believe in Jesus Christ.  What is hard is to maintain my day to day relationship.  There are so many worldly things that want to pull me away.
> 
> In the original post Paul says "since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ (Jesus)."  So Paul had salvation.  Jesus Christ had taken possession of his soul.  However, Paul did not consider himself to have taken possession of his new salvation because he wanted a perfect maturity in his relationship with Jesus Christ.  That is as I said earlier what every christian should want but the things in this world tend to pull us away.



I doubt that it is simple to believe in Christ.
It is simple for someone to 'say' they believe in Christ.... Not so simple to to make it more than just words.

Revelation 3:5
' He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.


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## Israel

This is some interesting stuff. Am greatly enjoying the give and take amongst us all. 
_


I am crucified with Christ._

(This is never a boast, could never be a boast. It is something a man can no more boast of than "God created the heavens and the earth." No man did it, no man can do it. It is statement of truth by faith...just like "Of God are you in Christ")

_Nevertheless I live, _

(Somehow, though, I am not annihilated, I mean, I recognize "myself"...I am dead, but still here)

_
Yet not I, but Christ lives in me. _

(This new being is more than just the old "I", and yet it's not a combo either, but Christ is the life of this thing I used to call "I")
_
And the life I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God who loved me, and gave himself for me._

Truly, faith in Christ is just that, the faith that is in Christ.
It is not saying one believes, but believing.
Now, a confession of faith in Christ is always consistent with faith in Christ, but it is never a matter of mere words.
So of course "saying" one believes may indicate 
nothing at all, other than a religious formulation a man has been presented with.
So each men is left with never really knowing (apart from what the spirit shows...) what is truly of faith in another man.

BUT, each man is charged with examining himself (not his neighbor) to see whether he be in the faith.
Lord...do I believe as you mean it?
Or am I just saying it?

So, I can't really see that my concern is ever any more than whether I am being faithful. (Which surely may include sharing admonitions, just as Paul was given admonitions to share...even as many on here share admonitions, and rightly so, so that God may be glorified in the body of Christ)

And, ultimately, I cannot be anything but convinced of this...that each of us, if we abide faithful in the Lord will know that absolutely everything is going perfectly according to plan...that God is working in each member perfectly, regardless of what our eyes may see, our ears may hear.
Jesus didn't ascend fretting over anything. 
And he still doesn't.
Does he still warn us? 
Surely...but each and every warning, chastisement, instruction, bit of discipline comes from one thing and in one way...from the power of his indestructible life. 

2Co 13:5  Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

God's work is to save. And give each man the glory that is in Christ.

The man who denies this, the man who would seek to make God a liar will also receive the "reward" for his own efforts.

1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 

Is Christ come in the flesh?


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## ronpasley

Ronnie T said:


> Revelation 3:5
> ' He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.



Amen, Thanks Israel, Ronnie, LJ for you words from God.
Many many many will miss heaven they are still sitting on the fence which belongs to satan. 

I've been there and have done it call myself a Christian went to church live like a so call christian on sunday and lived like he!! on monday. Yes I ask Jesus to come in my heart and I was taught that I was saved and no one could change that evening myself. 

But now I have a new pair of shoes I walk for the King of Kings. I surrender all to Jesus I can feel His Holy Spirit the joy, love, and peace is so great it's hard to explain in words but it is great. I am consumed in God now I wake up with praise to Him on my lips, all day I praise Him I seek Him I what to be in His present at all time, I go to bed with prayers and thoughts of Jesus. He is the answer to all your question He is a true Father to all that seek Him, He is my Dad.

I sorry that I'm no great grammar writer and I have a hard time trying to explain to ya'll. I do want to say I love you and I hope and pray for the one who is reading this that the Holy Spirit is pulling at your heart you know who you are. My you have the same encounter with the great God Jehovah for He is wait on you.

With Love Ron Pasley


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## Israel

I think sometimes (at least for me) it may be one thing to tell another man...

"You won't fulfill the will of God unless you overcome the world and show you are of the faith of Jesus Christ" (which I do believe)

Than it is to say

"God, how can you make me into someone that can help others overcome the world and glorify your name?"

I need to be about the latter...so that if and when I am called to utter the former, it will have the power and conviction of the Holy Spirit in it to accomplish God's will.


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## Ronnie T

Thoughts such as the last 4 replies often cause people to say: "Yeah, you think you're going to 'work' your way into heaven.
But it isn't like that.  It isn't even a matter of trying is it.
It's a matter of being born again.  To set the old person aside for Jesus Christ and His way of freedom.
If I die tonight, in a millionth of a second I'll be with Jesus.  Not because I confessed Him 45 years ago, but because He is my life.  I want to be with Him and feel Him.
I often believe I've come to understand Him.  Actually kinda funny.  But I'm thankful for what His love has revealed to me.

I know I'm not what I could be.  I could have given more things away.  I could have reached out more.  I haven't prayed as often as I should have.

I continue to ask God to forgive those things and so I know He will.
Is that automatic salvation????  I think it's more like God welcoming home one of His children.


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## Ronnie T

Thanks for posting this verse Israel:

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Paul wrote these words to every person in the City of Corinth who called themselves a Christian.
The admonition is still extremely important today.


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## farmasis

Sorry LJ and Ronnie...you are adding works to the requirements of salvation...not what Paul said at all.

Being saved is just part of what Christians have. Sadly, for most it is all. Yes, we should work for God after salvation...but it is just that.... work after salvation.


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## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> Sorry LJ and Ronnie...you are adding works to the requirements of salvation...not what Paul said at all.
> 
> Being saved is just part of what Christians have. Sadly, for most it is all. Yes, we should work for God after salvation...but it is just that.... work after salvation.



Although you and I agree on almost all things scriptural, we do not agree on this.  I feel that you have compartmentalized your beliefs on "salvation by movement of the mouth alone".

Salvation changes a person's life.  If it didn't/hasn't changed, salvation didn't take place.


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## Lowjack

farmasis said:


> Sorry LJ and Ronnie...you are adding works to the requirements of salvation...not what Paul said at all.
> 
> Being saved is just part of what Christians have. Sadly, for most it is all. Yes, we should work for God after salvation...but it is just that.... work after salvation.



Sorry you are misreading The Intent of My posts ,I'm Not adding anything to the requirements of salvation.
There are rewards that go alone with Salvation , those are the ones you work for.
By Their fruits ye shall know them, The works that God prepared before the foundation of the World that you may dwell in them Ephesians 2;10 , must preachers love verse 8-9 but they go right over verse 10.
How do you prove you belong to God By your faith or your works ? By your fruits or not yielding any fruit ?

I believe the Faith only teaching taken to the extreme that it has being, has created many so Called Christians ready for a free ride , I mean everyone loves a free ride don't we ?
We have created a bunch of Lazy butt Christians who give Christ a bad name.
Have you ever claim to be a plumber and have no tools, or a carpenter and not used a hammer ?


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## Randy

Ronnie T said:


> Although you and I agree on almost all things scriptural, we do not agree on this.  I feel that you have compartmentalized your beliefs on "salvation by movement of the mouth alone".
> 
> Salvation changes a person's life.  If it didn't/hasn't changed, salvation didn't take place.



I agree with you that it "should."  And in fact I have argued this many times with pastors especially Baptists pastors.  It is why I use to believe that you could loose your rightousness by denying God after you have said you "accept" him.  However pastor after pastor has corrected my that once a person is saved, he is saved no matter.  If a person like...well let's use pastor Jimmy Swaggart....follows God for years and years after being saved, maybe even pastors a church like Jimmy, and then falls/turns his back on God then is he still saved, was his life changed (only for a while) or has he turned his back on God and lost his rightouness?

I now hold that he is saved, he still believes that God sent His son to die for our sins.  That person has just not followed God's laws and as such will probably loose some of his rewards.  Yes salvation should "change" a person and in fact it normally does.  But the question becomes how much and for how long.


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## gtparts

Ephesians 2:8-10 (King James Version)

 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Lets break this down one more time so we can quit squabbling over semantics.

_For by grace are ye saved through faith_

Whose grace?  
God's grace!
Who does the saving? 
God does!
Where does the faith come from? 
From God!

_and that not of yourselves:_

Is salvation the result of anything we do?
Absolutely not!

_it is the gift of God:_

Again, who saves?
God!
Does a gift have "strings" attached?
No. You can call it what you will, but a gift is free from conditions. Otherwise it is barter or commerce: an exchange. You do not swap belief for salvation. Let me write that again. You do not swap belief for salvation. Belief is based on faith and faith comes from God, so God has given you faith to believe AND salvation. By my count, that is two gifts, both from God.

_Not of works, lest any man should boast._

Why doesn't God swap salvation for our works?
As pointed out, God doesn't want us to get puffed up about our efforts. God's gift is cause for us to glorify Him. Does anyone think they deserve any part of God's glory? He shares it, but not because we deserve it. It's because it pleases Him. Secondly, though not mentioned here, we can do nothing of ourselves to start with. Any works we do are the singular result of Him empowering us. So, if we understand that even "our" works are only through His grace, we only have cause to be humble, not boastful.

_For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works_

Does this refer to our creation? 
Yes, our original purpose was to do good works.
Does this refer to the rebirth, being born again?
Yes, again. We were created to do good works and we were saved for that same purpose. Both our birth and our rebirth are the product of His workmanship.

_which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them._

Whose plan is it? When was the plan formulated? To what end was the plan made?
It was and is God's plan for us. The plan predates our existence. The purpose of the plan is to reconcile as many as will accept Jesus as the living Son of God, the substitutionary payment for our sin, back to God and to allow those a part in ministry to others.

Love God ..... Love people ..... Serve all

Works have a place in God's plan, to give evidence of God's salvation and grace. Christ is our salvation and the rock upon which we build the works God has planned for us to complete. Salvation is always in anticipation and expectation of works, but because salvation is of God alone, it can stand alone. The thief who recognized and yielded to the Lord as they both hung on crosses some 2000 years ago received salvation, never having the opportunity for works. His salvation is no less secure than our own because neither his nor ours depends on either of us, but on Him.

Grace and peace.


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## Randy

gtparts,
PERFECT!


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## crackerdave

Randy said:


> gtparts,
> PERFECT!



Yes!  Thanks for clarifying that for the 364th time.

Lowjack, I think you may be scrapin' th' bottom of your "Topic Barrel." Maybe this has benefited one who has never seen it before,though.


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## hawglips

gtparts said:


> Works have a place in God's plan, to give evidence of God's salvation and grace. Christ is our salvation and the rock upon which we build the works God has planned for us to complete. Salvation is always in anticipation and expectation of works, but because salvation is of God alone, it can stand alone. The thief who recognized and yielded to the Lord as they both hung on crosses some 2000 years ago received salvation, never having the opportunity for works. His salvation is no less secure than our own because neither his nor ours depends on either of us, but on Him.



It is not complicated.

Eternal life is a gift freely given by Christ, and only He can give it.   There is nothing you can do in and of yourself to earn it, no matter what you do.  And none of us deserve it, for we have all sinned and fallen short of it. 

But God so loved the world that he sent his son to save us from that fate.   And Christ prepared the way for us in Gethsemane and Golgotha.   And he made it clear that believing on Him and keeping His commandments and doing His will is required to receive His gift of eternal life.  And Christ made it clear that those who do not engage in good works, will not receive that gift -- whether they profess to believe on Him, or not.  And some who professed Him but refrained from doing good works will be surprised when He says to them, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...." 

And the thief on the cross was not promised salvation, but rather to be with Christ that day in paradise.   And we know Christ went and preached in the spirit world between his death and resurrection.  So this should not be surprising, nor should it cause confusion.


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## Ronnie T

Jesus explains His parable of the sower.

Matt 13:18"Hear then the parable of the sower. 
 19"When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 

 20"The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 

 21yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 

 22"And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 

 23"And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."


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## Ronnie T

Jesus' parable of the kingdom of heaven being compared to the sowing of seed:

Matthew 13:
24Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. 

 25"But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. 

 26"But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. 

 27"The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' 

 28"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?' 

 29"But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 

 30'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'" 

*In other words, on the day of harvest(judgment), there will be a great separation within the church.  We can't make that separation not cause we aren't smart enough.  But it will take place.


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## Ronnie T

Matt 7:24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 
 25"And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 
 26"Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 
 27"The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall." 

*Jesus' death on the cross did not negate the above teachings of Jesus;  Jesus' death gave access to God's power and forgiveness.


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## gtparts

hawglips said:


> It is not complicated.
> 
> Eternal life is a gift freely given by Christ, and only He can give it.   There is nothing you can do in and of yourself to earn it, no matter what you do.  And none of us deserve it, for we have all sinned and fallen short of it.
> 
> But God so loved the world that he sent his son to save us from that fate.   And Christ prepared the way for us in Gethsemane and Golgotha.   And he made it clear that believing on Him and keeping His commandments and doing His will is required to receive His gift of eternal life.  And Christ made it clear that those who do not engage in good works, will not receive that gift -- whether they profess to believe on Him, or not.  And some who professed Him but refrained from doing good works will be surprised when He says to them, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...."
> 
> And the thief on the cross was not promised salvation, but rather to be with Christ that day in paradise.   And we know Christ went and preached in the spirit world between his death and resurrection.  So this should not be surprising, nor should it cause confusion.



I've heard this before and I have complete confidence in His ability to discern the hearts of men. The doing of His will does not accomplish salvation.... it is the certain response to salvation, so they are intimately tied together. Obedience necessarily follows salvation, but until one acknowledges Jesus as Lord and Savior, how can he or she be His servant? 

If salvation is dependent on works, please tell us how much work is sufficient, so that we might be secure in our hope of eternity with God? 
If salvation is dependent on works, please explain why Paul lied in Ephesians 2:9? 
And if Ephesians is the included in the inspired word of God, is then God not a liar? 

Never!

Paul and James are not at odds on this. Some just misunderstand the writings of James. God does not contradict Himself in the writings of Paul or James. 

As for the thief, why would Jesus offer a response that did not answer the thief's plea?  If we are to accept it as you say, then Jesus only confirmed that both of them would die that day and their souls would be together in Sheol. There is somehow a lack of comfort in the way you see Jesus' answer. The Jesus I know and worship would not be so callous, even on the cross. Are you making judgments about the thief' sincerity of confession or of Christ's compassion?

As you may have gathered, I disagree with some parts of your post, and not without reason. Please consider what you have written in light of all of what God's word says. 

Grace and peace to you.


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## gtparts

RT,

Your two posts above brings to mind the parable of the landowner and his peculiar decision (by worldly standards) to pay all his workers a day's wage, including those who showed up in the last few minutes of light. Obviously, the payscale was based on grace that saw the need and the willingness to work, rather than actual personal production goals met. 

Sometimes it is all about attitude.

That brings to mind the two brothers. You remember the ones.
One refused to work , but worked anyway. The other agreed to work, but never showed up. I suspect both considered themselves sons and heirs, yet the question raised was not about titles or expectations, but who did the will of the Father. A cautionary tale for those who claim to be sons.


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## farmasis

Lowjack said:


> Sorry you are misreading The Intent of My posts ,I'm Not adding anything to the requirements of salvation.
> There are rewards that go alone with Salvation , those are the ones you work for.
> By Their fruits ye shall know them, The works that God prepared before the foundation of the World that you may dwell in them Ephesians 2;10 , must preachers love verse 8-9 but they go right over verse 10.
> How do you prove you belong to God By your faith or your works ? By your fruits or not yielding any fruit ?
> 
> I believe the Faith only teaching taken to the extreme that it has being, has created many so Called Christians ready for a free ride , I mean everyone loves a free ride don't we ?
> We have created a bunch of Lazy butt Christians who give Christ a bad name.
> Have you ever claim to be a plumber and have no tools, or a carpenter and not used a hammer ?


 

Sorry I read too much into that.

I agree completely with you.


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## farmasis

Ronnie T said:


> Although you and I agree on almost all things scriptural, we do not agree on this. I feel that you have compartmentalized your beliefs on "salvation by movement of the mouth alone".
> 
> Salvation changes a person's life. If it didn't/hasn't changed, salvation didn't take place.


 
I apologize. I think we are closer here than apart.


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## hawglips

gtparts said:


> The doing of His will does not accomplish salvation.... it is the certain response to salvation, so they are intimately tied together.



I think Matthew 25 is best taken at face value and considered by those who don't think it's necessary to do His will.



gtparts said:


> If salvation is dependent on works, please tell us how much work is sufficient, so that we might be secure in our hope of eternity with God?



Many great men and prophets fell from grace due to their works of iniquity.  We have to endure to the end.

We shall find out whether we are to be numbered among the goats or the sheep when we stand before him at the last day -- based on what we did unto our fellow man.

Some will be surprised to hear the words, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire...."

Others who have professed and confessed his name will find that the door to the wedding feast is shut on them, and will be gripped in anguish when they hear his words, "I know you not."

Others who have cried "Lord, Lord" will hear the words, "Depart from me, ye that work iniquity". 



gtparts said:


> If salvation is dependent on works, please explain why Paul lied in Ephesians 2:9?
> And if Ephesians is the included in the inspired word of God, is then God not a liar?



There is another more likely scenario.  That is, Paul's words to the Ephesians are often so misunderstood.



gtparts said:


> Paul and James are not at odds on this. Some just misunderstand the writings of James. God does not contradict Himself in the writings of Paul or James.



You are right.  Paul's writings are misunderstood often. 



gtparts said:


> As for the thief, why would Jesus offer a response that did not answer the thief's plea?  If we are to accept it as you say, then Jesus only confirmed that both of them would die that day and their souls would be together in Sheol. There is somehow a lack of comfort in the way you see Jesus' answer. The Jesus I know and worship would not be so callous, even on the cross. Are you making judgments about the thief' sincerity of confession or of Christ's compassion?



I'd say you are making a judgement, not me.  That's my point.  We need to refrain from inserting our own preconceptions into Christ's words.

His words are very plain and easy to understand.


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## Ronnie T

I completely and wholeheartedly agree with GT and farmasis, no one is saved by works they have completed.

Salvation's grace says that Christ died on the cross for a world of people who didn't even believe in Him.
Then the Good News of Christ was proclaimed.  Those who could hear that Gospel and accept it(faith, faithfulness) would be able to have God's influence in their lives.  As they grew, God would grow them.  As their faith grew, God would Himself give them increase of faith.  As they sinned and confessed, God would forgive their sins.  Always.  Forever.  As they confessed.

But none of that is contingent on what they said when they were 10 years old.  It's there because Jesus Christ is in their heart.

I again refer everyone to the parable of the sower.


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## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> I apologize. I think we are closer here than apart.




Please forgive the foolish way I express myself sometimes.
You and I are always closer than apart............... we're connected by Jesus Christ.


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## emtguy

Ronnie you are wrong on my dinosaur thread but here you are 100 percent right!
You get " born again" at the alter....you get " saved" everyday THEN you are granted " eternal security" at the end of your journey.
You get a new nature at the alter when youre born again then you try and strive everyday to keep the old nature(sinner) in check and let the new nature(gods nature)become more and more in your thoughts and actions and then when you die and go to heaven you get the eternal security that no man can take from you.

Salvation is a continious walk and you will have to battle the flesh and the sin nature, sometimes old wins, sometimes new wins but its the striving for the new to always win that makes it worth while.


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## Israel

We are saved by the work of Christ.
Any "rewards" are also the work of Christ.
Any endurance is the work of Christ, any faithfulness is the work of Christ, any thing it all that is of any eternal value is the work of Christ.
Finding out you are dead and your life is hidden with Christ in God is also the work of Christ.
It is all of Christ. 
He is the new man, he is the head of the body, he is our life.
The wonderful thing is we get to know God as Christ knows God, love God as Christ loves God, and God chalks this all up to us just for doing the one thing that is the only reasonable thing any of "us" can do...lay down our arms and sue for terms of peace.

Luk 14:31  Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 
Luk 14:32  Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.


(With apologies to Bobby Fuller)

I fought the Lord, and the Lord won,
I fought the Lord and the Lord won...


----------



## gtparts

> Originally Posted by *gtparts*
> 
> 
> _The doing of His will does not  accomplish salvation.... it is the certain response to salvation, so  they are intimately tied together._





hawglips said:


> I think Matthew 25 is best taken at face value and considered by those who don't think it's necessary to do His will.



Perhaps you would be so kind as to tell us what you know concerning Matt. 25, rather than what you think. 

I'll tell you what I know. Matt. 24-25 is where Jesus foretells the events of His return, specifically separating the believers from the non-believers. Believers do the will of the Father. The doing is the natural result of believing. In short, saved people serve!



> Originally Posted by *gtparts*
> 
> 
> _If salvation is dependent on works,  please tell us how much work is sufficient, so that we might be secure  in our hope of eternity with God?_





hawglips said:


> Many great men and prophets fell from grace due to their works of iniquity.  We have to endure to the end.
> 
> We shall find out whether we are to be numbered among the goats or the sheep when we stand before him at the last day -- based on what we did unto our fellow man.
> 
> Some will be surprised to hear the words, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire...."
> 
> Others who have professed and confessed his name will find that the door to the wedding feast is shut on them, and will be gripped in anguish when they hear his words, "I know you not."
> 
> Others who have cried "Lord, Lord" will hear the words, "Depart from me, ye that work iniquity".



Thankfully, I and many others do not have to wait to find out if we are in or out. Have I misread Paul and John?

*1 John 5:12-14 (King James Version)*


 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30637">12</sup>He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30638">13</sup>These  things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of  God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe  on the name of the Son of God. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30639">14</sup>And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:




> Originally Posted by *gtparts*
> 
> 
> _If salvation is dependent on works, please explain why Paul lied in Ephesians 2:9?
> And if Ephesians is the included in the inspired word of God, is then God not a liar?_





hawglips said:


> There is another more likely scenario.  That is, Paul's words to the Ephesians are often so misunderstood.



What's to misunderstand?

*Ephesians 2:8-10 (King James Version)*


 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-29238">8</sup>For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-29239">9</sup>Not of works, lest any man should boast. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-29240">10</sup>For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




> Originally Posted by *gtparts*
> 
> 
> _Paul and James are not at odds on  this. Some just misunderstand the writings of James. God does not  contradict Himself in the writings of Paul or James._





hawglips said:


> You are right.  Paul's writings are misunderstood often.



Funny how the vast majority of writers on this subject make an effort to correct peoples misconceptions about what James wrote.



> Originally Posted by *gtparts*
> 
> 
> _As for the thief, why would Jesus  offer a response that did not answer the thief's plea?  If we are to  accept it as you say, then Jesus only confirmed that both of them would  die that day and their souls would be together in Sheol. There is  somehow a lack of comfort in the way you see Jesus' answer. The Jesus I  know and worship would not be so callous, even on the cross. Are you  making judgments about the thief' sincerity of confession or of Christ's  compassion?_





hawglips said:


> I'd say you are making a judgment, not me.  That's my point.  We need to refrain from inserting our own preconceptions into Christ's words.
> 
> His words are very plain and easy to understand.



No preconception on my part. Above any individual suffering crucifixion, I know that Jesus would, in that moment, still show love and compassion, even to the thief who realized that next to him hung the Son of God. Why else would he say:
*Luke 23:41-43 (King James Version)*


 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-25977">41</sup>And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-25978">42</sup>And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-25979">43</sup>And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.




I'll leave this discussion here. If you persist in making works an integral part of salvation rather than a life-long result of having been saved, you have missed the point of grace.


----------



## gtparts

emtguy said:


> Ronnie you are wrong on my dinosaur thread but here you are 100 percent right!
> You get " born again" at the alter....you get " saved" everyday THEN you are granted " eternal security" at the end of your journey.
> You get a new nature at the alter when you're born again then you try and strive everyday to keep the old nature(sinner) in check and let the new nature(gods nature)become more and more in your thoughts and actions and then when you die and go to heaven you get the eternal security that no man can take from you.
> 
> Salvation is a continuous walk and you will have to battle the flesh and the sin nature, sometimes old wins, sometimes new wins but its the striving for the new to always win that makes it worth while.



Not to be critical, but you seem to blend salvation, something that is gifted and immutably continues forever, with sanctification, the process of becoming more and more Christ-like in all aspects.

Trying and striving to "always win" does not make it worthwhile. Successfully trying and striving is not fulfilling. I'm convinced it is not even possible.

 Christ is the only one that makes it worthwhile, when we trust Him to conquer in our behalf: His strength, His victory, our benefit. When we rely completely on Him, good things happen to and for us.


----------



## hawglips

gtparts said:


> I'll tell you what I know. Matt. 24-25 is where Jesus foretells the events of His return, specifically separating the believers from the non-believers. Believers do the will of the Father. The doing is the natural result of believing. In short, saved people serve!



True believers do indeed.  And a lot of those that belong to the church and profess to believe will be surprised when they find themselves numbered among the goats, shut out from the presence of the Lord, and told by the Lord, "I know you not".




gtparts said:


> Have I misread Paul and John?
> 
> *1 John 5:12-14 (King James Version)*
> 
> 
> <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30637">12</sup>He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
> <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30638">13</sup>These  things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of  God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe  on the name of the Son of God.
> <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30639">14</sup>And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
> 
> What's to misunderstand?



Typically, its the part where Paul says salvation is the gift of God, and not of ourselves; and folks take that to mean that this gift from God is given to us whether or not we do His will, keep his commandments, serve our fellowman, etc.

*Ephesians 2:8-10 (King James Version)*


 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-29238">8</sup>For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-29239">9</sup>Not of works, lest any man should boast. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-29240">10</sup>For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

There are just too many times when the Savior warned and taught that we must keep his commandments, do his will, serve our fellowman -- in order to gain eternal life.

Remember Jesus' words:

"...he that endureth to the end shall be saved. "



gtparts said:


> No preconception on my part. Above any individual suffering crucifixion, I know that Jesus would, in that moment, still show love and compassion, even to the thief who realized that next to him hung the Son of God. Why else would he say:
> *Luke 23:41-43 (King James Version)*
> 
> 
> <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-25977">41</sup>And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
> <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-25978">42</sup>And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
> <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-25979">43</sup>And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.



Since we know Jesus had not yet ascended to His father till after He appeared in the garden after his resurrection, and since we know He preached to spirits in prison between his death and resurrection, then to assume those words of our Lord on the cross meant that the thief went with him into Christ's kingdom that day -- that is a quite a leap.


----------



## hawglips

There are many qualifications that the Lord put on gaining eternal life.

Believing was one of them.  But only one of many.

Here is a list of some of the requirements specifically articulated by Christ that immediately come to mind:

1) believe in Christ
2) be born again
3) repent
4) be baptized
5) do His will
6) keep His commandments
7) serve our fellow men
8) love our neighbor
9) love God
10) do good to others
11) endure to the end

And there are others depending on how you divy up the above.

It has always been puzzling to me why so many folks want to discount some of the things that Christ said are necessary for eternal life.   And they go to great lengths to try to prove they are not necessary.  But it seems to me that EACH and EVERY thing he says are necessary for eternal life are the things we should consider as necessary for eternal life.


----------



## Randy

I'd like to see scripture for 4 through 11.  Sounds as though you believe you could still go south after you complete 1-3?


----------



## Jeff57

hawglips said:


> There are many qualifications that the Lord put on gaining eternal life.
> 
> Believing was one of them.  But only one of many.
> 
> Here is a list of some of the requirements specifically articulated by Christ that immediately come to mind:
> 
> 1) believe in Christ
> 2) be born again
> 3) repent
> 4) be baptized
> 5) do His will
> 6) keep His commandments
> 7) serve our fellow men
> 8) love our neighbor
> 9) love God
> 10) do good to others
> 11) endure to the end
> 
> And there are others depending on how you divy up the above.
> 
> It has always been puzzling to me why so many folks want to discount some of the things that Christ said are necessary for eternal life.   And they go to great lengths to try to prove they are not necessary.  But it seems to me that EACH and EVERY thing he says are necessary for eternal life are the things we should consider as necessary for eternal life.



I thought Jesus came to fulfill the law(10 commandments) and provide salvation through his death and resurrection. Are you saying that we now have 11 commandments we must follow to gain salvation.  So why did Jesus have to die?


----------



## gtparts

Randy said:


> I'd like to see scripture for 4 through 11.  Sounds as though you believe you could still go south after you complete 1-3?



That he does. He believes salvation is at least partly "works based". Christ's death and resurrection was not sufficient to save anyone without them doing works also. Hawglips words are in black and white, right in this thread. Personally, I can't get that Scripture and I've read it all. When things don't seem to line up between passages, I go digging deeper to see which parts I don't fully grasp. I can only say that Scripture says salvation is by grace alone through believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior, that it is credited to me in the present and preserved by God until I am called home. 
1 John 5:12-14 says I can be certain of it today, not some date in the by and by. My obedience, my service is not to secure my salvation, but is an expression of my love and reverence for Him.

The one who works to secure his salvation is hopelessly lost'

Hawglips is quite fond of Matt 25 to justify his position, yet has not  taken the time to explain how seeking to preserve ones life by works is wasted effort as stated in Matthew.

Here it is.

*Matthew 16:25 (King James Version)*




 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-23698">25</sup>For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 

Clearly, if the motivation is to save ones own life by works......

Matthew 25 pretty much says that God knows our hearts and motives and those who are wrongly motivated or unmotivated (saving ones own hide, for example) won't fool Him.

Hawglips will just have to sort this one out. I need to get ready to go to the funeral home for visitation.

Grace and peace.


----------



## WTM45

Come on, fellas.
There is an entire world of "unbelievers" who simply want a concise answer to such a deep quandry with irreparable eternal ramifications.

Ole Diogenes will have a field day on this one...


----------



## gtparts

Jeff57 said:


> I thought Jesus came to fulfill the law(10 commandments) and provide salvation through his death and resurrection. Are you saying that we now have 11 commandments we must follow to gain salvation.  So why did Jesus have to die?



Sorry, Jeff, but Hawglips has placed a burden on believers that no one can fulfill. Heaven sure will be a sparsely populated place.


----------



## hawglips

Jeff57 said:


> I thought Jesus came to fulfill the law(10 commandments) and provide salvation through his death and resurrection. Are you saying that we now have 11 commandments we must follow to gain salvation.  So why did Jesus have to die?



Jesus fulfulled the Law of Moses which required blood sacrifice of believers.  Jesus' blood was the fulfillment of it.

This illustrates what I'm talking about.  Jesus' had to die or you and I and everybody else since the creation could never gain eternal life.   Eternal life is the greatest of all the gifts of God.  It was freely given, and you and I an noone else deserved it.  Grace.

Are you saying everybody since creation is saved?  Or are you saying there are things one has to do to get saved?

Doing His will includes a lot more than 11 commandments, IMO.  Being born again means putting away the old self, and walking the walk of the believer.  Enduring to the end means keeping it up and repenting and trying one's best to stay on the strait and narrow till one breathes his last breath in mortality.  Or risk being shut out of his presence, be told, "I know you not", and put with the goats into eternal fire.


----------



## hawglips

Randy said:


> I'd like to see scripture for 4 through 11.  Sounds as though you believe you could still go south after you complete 1-3?



According to Christ, I reckon so.


----------



## hawglips

gtparts said:


> Sorry, Jeff, but Hawglips has placed a burden on believers that no one can fulfill.



Not without the atonement, repentence, and forgiveness....


----------



## Randy

hawglips said:


> According to Christ, I reckon so.


So no scripture?

OK, I learned nothing here.


----------



## hawglips

Randy said:


> So no scripture?
> 
> OK, I learned nothing here.



Lot's of scriptures.  I've listed some.  Check those out. And there are lots more I didn't list.


----------



## emtguy

hawglips said:


> Lot's of scriptures.  I've listed some.  Check those out. And there are lots more I didn't list.



Your number 1...beleive in christ is wrong. Satan himself beleives in christ.

You shoulda said Accept christ as your saviour.
I do agree with you though, folks who think salvation is a one time trip to the alter, shake the preachers hand and never dart the doors of a church again are wrong.


----------



## Jeff57

hawglips said:


> This illustrates what I'm talking about.  Jesus' had to die or you and I and everybody else since the creation could never gain eternal life.


True


hawglips said:


> Eternal life is the greatest of all the gifts of God.  It was freely given, and you and I an noone else deserved it.  Grace.



I'm still in agreement with you.



hawglips said:


> Are you saying everybody since creation is saved?



Not at all.  



hawglips said:


> Or are you saying there are things one has to do to get saved?


Depends on what you mean by things one has to do.  From your previous posts it appears that you believe we must do several things (works) to obtain salvation.  I believe we need to be careful about adding our works to Christ's.  Our works are filthy rags and even our best doesn't begin to measure up to God's requirement.  We are to have faith that He is the Son of God and believe that He shed His blood on Calvary's cross, was buried and rose again on the 3rd day and now sits at the right hand of the Father.   Adding our works to His sacrifice is prideful.



hawglips said:


> Doing His will includes a lot more than 11 commandments, IMO.


 Indeed it does and wouldn't it be great if we all could fulfill # 5 on your list. Then there would be no sin.


----------



## hawglips

Jeff57 said:


> Depends on what you mean by things one has to do.  From your previous posts it appears that you believe we must do several things (works) to obtain salvation.  I believe we need to be careful about adding our works to Christ's.  Our works are filthy rags and even our best doesn't begin to measure up to God's requirement.  We are to have faith that He is the Son of God and believe that He shed His blood on Calvary's cross, was buried and rose again on the 3rd day and now sits at the right hand of the Father.   Adding our works to His sacrifice is prideful.



Doing His will is the ANTITHESIS of pride.  You are giving up your own will, and seeking His will to rule your life.  We are not adding works, we are sincerely seeking to take up our cross and follow Him, instead of justifying our own sin by pretending it isn't necessary to do certain things He's asked us to do.

If we are rationalizing sin while professing to be a follower of Him, we are not repenting, and we are not taking advantage of His atoning blood, and we will find ourselves with goats.  A true believer will try to do His will, and will not rationalize sin, and will by humble and will repent.  They will serve their fellow men, keep His commandments, and when they stumble, will repent, and try to do better.

"Be ye therefore perfect..." could be added to the list and really freak out folks who are not wanting to hand their will over to Him, but seek to rationalize sin...


----------



## Randy

emtguy said:


> Your number 1...beleive in christ is wrong. Satan himself beleives in christ.
> 
> You shoulda said Accept christ as your saviour.
> I do agree with you though, folks who think salvation is a one time trip to the alter, shake the preachers hand and never dart the doors of a church again are wrong.


That is not what he said.


----------



## hawglips

emtguy said:


> Your number 1...beleive in christ is wrong. Satan himself beleives in christ.



Believing in Christ is an absolute requirement.  In fact, all the others are based on that one.  But you are quite right, the devil and his angels believe in Christ, and it does them no good, because they don't do the other things.


----------



## Jeff57

hawglips said:


> Doing His will is the ANTITHESIS of pride.  You are giving up your own will, and seeking His will to rule your life.  We are not adding works, we are sincerely seeking to take up our cross and follow Him, instead of justifying our own sin by pretending it isn't necessary to do certain things He's asked us to do.


You're contradicting yourself.  You say you're not adding works but you listed 11 things we must do to gain eternal life.  Jesus didn't just make a down payment for our sins, He paid them in full. There's nothing we can do to add to his finished work.  John 19:30 says "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, *It is finished*: and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost."  



hawglips said:


> If we are rationalizing sin while professing to be a follower of Him, we are not repenting, and we are not taking advantage of His atoning blood, and we will find ourselves with goats.


Who's rationalizing sin? Sin is what separates us from God.  And yes I am taking advantage of His blood because it's the only reason I can have a relationship with my Father.



hawglips said:


> A true believer will try to do His will, and will not rationalize sin, and will by humble and will repent.


The key word here is believer.  As believers we should desire to please God by doing His will.  Unbelievers cannot please God.  





hawglips said:


> "Be ye therefore perfect..."


In Christ I am.


Let me ask you a sincere question about your list.  Start at #1 and working down the list, at what point is a person saved?


----------



## centerpin fan

This thread reminds me of a book I read years ago called The Gospel According to Jesus by John MacArthur.  In it, MacArthur examines what constitutes saving faith -- very thorough treatment of the subject.


----------



## ronpasley

If you seek for the truth you will find but if you depend on satan to anwser them he will gladly do so for he knows the bible more than any of us. Holy Spirit guide us to your truth for your word is truth.


----------



## SneekEE

hawglips said:


> There are many qualifications that the Lord put on gaining eternal life.
> 
> Believing was one of them.  But only one of many.
> 
> Here is a list of some of the requirements specifically articulated by Christ that immediately come to mind:
> 
> 1) believe in Christ
> 2) be born again
> 3) repent
> 4) be baptized
> 5) do His will
> 6) keep His commandments
> 7) serve our fellow men
> 8) love our neighbor
> 9) love God
> 10) do good to others
> 11) endure to the end
> 
> And there are others depending on how you divy up the above.
> 
> It has always been puzzling to me why so many folks want to discount some of the things that Christ said are necessary for eternal life.   And they go to great lengths to try to prove they are not necessary.  But it seems to me that EACH and EVERY thing he says are necessary for eternal life are the things we should consider as necessary for eternal life.



I am not discounting what Jesus said, but I am asking you to explain your understanding to me, in light of how I understand the bible.

If God opens a persons heart, gives that person the faith to "believe in Christ" as in place his trust in the work of Jesus ect. ect. then that person will be "born again" then all of those other things you listed after beeing born again will come naturaly from the heart. I dont see anywhere in the bible that says dooing those works will "save you". But over and over the bible is clear if God has saved a man, then he gives that man a new heart and new spirt, that no longer desires to do his own will, but to do the will of God. And Gods will is that you  repent, be baptised, keep his commandments, love your fellow man, love God, and endure to the end.  I mean loving God can not be anything you must do to get saved, the bible is clear that b4 God saves you, or begins a work in your heart,  that no one loves God or seeks after Him.That we are under the power of sin. So how could loving God, seeking His will, keeping His commandments, loveing our neighbor as ourself, be 
 necessary for eternal life , that we must do, if the bible says we cant do any of that in our lost state?

Now i may have missunderstood you, correct me if i am wrong, but arent you saying that in order for me to be "saved" I must first be baptised, love men and serve them, do Gods will ect.?


If so, that is just not possible. i mean b4 we are saved, we are carnal.The bible says the carnal mind hates God, and can NOT do His will or keep his commandment.

Romans 8:7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 

So again, how can the works you listed above, be somthing that God requires us to do in order to be saved, if God also has said that the works you listed above, can not possibly be done by a person b4 they are saved?

Once a person is born again, he cant help but love the things that God loves, and hate the things that God hates.It is God who workes in the new man, to do all of the "works" you listed above. It is God alone who saves, not our decision to be saved, not of any of our works, or prayers. Salvation is of the Lord, and no work on our part can save us. In fact, any work we try to add to what God has done is a insult.Could you imagine if you gave the life of a loved one for someone elese, and then that person say what you did was not good enough, unless they also do somthing to add to it, and what ever they did was nothing of any importance or value? It reminds me of a person trying to sell somthing that to them was very valuable and sentimental, and we walk up to them and lay a penny on the item and say now it is worth a peny.Dont get me wrong, a person who is saved will have works, but it aint his works that got him saved.


----------



## Ronnie T

I've seen several post that seem to imply there are two primary beliefs concerning salvation.

1.  Once Saved Always Saved.
2.  Saved by Works.

I don't believe either of those beliefs are biblical.

First.  No one will ever be saved by works.  The Bible is very very clear about that.

Second.  Once saved always saved (OSAS) is a doctrinal issue that was invented around the 16th century.  It did not exist in the 1st century church and it didn't exist in the 5th century church.  They had more important things to do as Christians than deciding who all were going to heaven.

*******************************************

I believe that God Himself saved and adds to the kingdom all of those who have believe and have the kind of faith that results in "fruits of the Spirit".
A person is not saved because they opened their mouths and said something.  They are saved because they receive Jesus Christ.  They want Jesus Christ.  That kind of belief, or faith, will always result in "fruit of the Spirit".
Accepting Jesus and being added to God's kingdom will always produce those "fruits".

If salvation didn't change you.............. you didn't get it.
All you did was move your mouth.


----------



## Ronnie T

SneekEE said:


> I am not discounting what Jesus said, but I am asking you to explain your understanding to me, in light of how I understand the bible.
> 
> If God opens a persons heart, gives that person the faith to "believe in Christ" as in place his trust in the work of Jesus ect. ect. then that person will be "born again" then all of those other things you listed after beeing born again will come naturaly from the heart. I dont see anywhere in the bible that says dooing those works will "save you". But over and over the bible is clear if God has saved a man, then he gives that man a new heart and new spirt, that no longer desires to do his own will, but to do the will of God. And Gods will is that you  repent, be baptised, keep his commandments, love your fellow man, love God, and endure to the end.  I mean loving God can not be anything you must do to get saved, the bible is clear that b4 God saves you, or begins a work in your heart,  that no one loves God or seeks after Him.That we are under the power of sin. So how could loving God, seeking His will, keeping His commandments, loveing our neighbor as ourself, be
> necessary for eternal life , that we must do, if the bible says we cant do any of that in our lost state?
> 
> Now i may have missunderstood you, correct me if i am wrong, but arent you saying that in order for me to be "saved" I must first be baptised, love men and serve them, do Gods will ect.?
> 
> 
> If so, that is just not possible. i mean b4 we are saved, we are carnal.The bible says the carnal mind hates God, and can NOT do His will or keep his commandment.
> 
> Romans 8:7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
> 
> So again, how can the works you listed above, be somthing that God requires us to do in order to be saved, if God also has said that the works you listed above, can not possibly be done by a person b4 they are saved?
> 
> Once a person is born again, he cant help but love the things that God loves, and hate the things that God hates.It is God who workes in the new man, to do all of the "works" you listed above. It is God alone who saves, not our decision to be saved, not of any of our works, or prayers. Salvation is of the Lord, and no work on our part can save us. In fact, any work we try to add to what God has done is a insult.Could you imagine if you gave the life of a loved one for someone elese, and then that person say what you did was not good enough, unless they also do somthing to add to it, and what ever they did was nothing of any importance or value? It reminds me of a person trying to sell somthing that to them was very valuable and sentimental, and we walk up to them and lay a penny on the item and say now it is worth a peny.Dont get me wrong, a person who is saved will have works, but it aint his works that got him saved.



I disagree with one thing you say.  Maybe two.

We do indeed share in the receiving of salvation.
1.  We will not receive salvation until we seek it.
2.  We will not receive salvation until we accept it.


----------



## emtguy

Ronnie T said:


> I've seen several post that seem to imply there are two primary beliefs concerning salvation.
> 
> 1.  Once Saved Always Saved.
> 2.  Saved by Works.
> 
> I don't believe either of those beliefs are biblical.
> 
> First.  No one will ever be saved by works.  The Bible is very very clear about that.
> 
> Second.  Once saved always saved (OSAS) is a doctrinal issue that was invented around the 16th century.  It did not exist in the 1st century church and it didn't exist in the 5th century church.  They had more important things to do as Christians than deciding who all were going to heaven.
> 
> *******************************************
> 
> I believe that God Himself saved and adds to the kingdom all of those who have believe and have the kind of faith that results in "fruits of the Spirit".
> A person is not saved because they opened their mouths and said something.  They are saved because they receive Jesus Christ.  They want Jesus Christ.  That kind of belief, or faith, will always result in "fruit of the Spirit".
> Accepting Jesus and being added to God's kingdom will always produce those "fruits".
> 
> If salvation didn't change you.............. you didn't get it.
> All you did was move your mouth.



dang it ronnie i aint liking this agreeing with you all the time!!

Youre dead on BUT the church has made salvation a " easy beleivism" gospel where you just go to the alter, confess your sins, live like you want mon. through sat. and then goto church on sun. and your heaven bound AND THATS A LIE FROM SATAN HIMSELF...its a everyday fight to keep the old nature from surfacing and letting that new nature thrive! 
The worldy equivelent to that is jews and muselums...flesh vs. the spirit! always has been always will be.
A man can get born again on sun. but i swear to you that devil will be whispering in his ear on mon.
If the devil aint harassing ya then somethings wrong i'd say..lol


----------



## Ronnie T

emtguy said:


> dang it ronnie i aint liking this agreeing with you all the time!!
> 
> Youre dead on BUT the church has made salvation a " easy beleivism" gospel where you just go to the alter, confess your sins, live like you want mon. through sat. and then goto church on sun. and your heaven bound AND THATS A LIE FROM SATAN HIMSELF...its a everyday fight to keep the old nature from surfacing and letting that new nature thrive!
> The worldy equivelent to that is jews and muselums...flesh vs. the spirit! always has been always will be.
> A man can get born again on sun. but i swear to you that devil will be whispering in his ear on mon.
> If the devil aint harassing ya then somethings wrong i'd say..lol



A feller can't talk his way into heaven.


.


----------



## Jeff57

Ronnie T said:


> I've seen several post that seem to imply there are two primary beliefs concerning salvation.
> 
> 1.  Once Saved Always Saved.
> 2.  Saved by Works.
> 
> I don't believe either of those beliefs are biblical.
> 
> First.  No one will ever be saved by works.  The Bible is very very clear about that.


Yep.  Your works ain't going to save ya.



Ronnie T said:


> Second.  Once saved always saved (OSAS) is a doctrinal issue that was invented around the 16th century.  It did not exist in the 1st century church and it didn't exist in the 5th century church.


 
Interesting.  So if we are saved by grace what is it we do to loose our salvation?  And if we can loose our salvation what must we do to get it back?  Surely not works.   John 10:27-29 solves it for me.  27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


----------



## Ronnie T

Jeff57 said:


> Interesting.  So if we are saved by grace what is it we do to loose our salvation?  And if we can loose our salvation what must we do to get it back?  Surely not works.
> 
> John 10:27-29 solves it for me.  27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.



This verse has nothing at all to do with the subject.
No one can force me to stop loving my wife.  No one.
But that doesn't mean I won't leave her next week for the cutie that works down at the tackle shop.

Also,  Jesus' sheep know His voice and follow Him.
I know some folks who grew up in the church and even taught Bible class from time to time, but today they don't know Jesus' voice and they certainly don't follow Him.

The prodigal son turned from His father and ultimately ended up in hel l (pig pen).  His father waited at the top of the hill for his son to return.  It was imperative that his son return to him for the banquet to take place.  Thank goodness the son realized, "Hey, I'm down here with these pigs when I could be receiving the blessing of my father".


----------



## emtguy

Ronnie T said:


> A feller can't talk his way into heaven.
> 
> 
> .



i hope you did'nt read my post wrong..i agree with you but alot of " church" people think you can talk your way in.

Your last post on the prodigal son is dead on also...i say the same as you, you have to follow him and hear his voice THEN you will have eternal life so what happens if you dont hear his voice or follow him?

A family member of mine was raised in church and was a christian but somewhere along the way he lost the " still voice" of God and now he is a drug addict. How can people think that since he was " saved" at 17 that now at 46 he is still in god's grace and has eternal life? I dont think god lets drug heads into heaven...we pray for him alot

ronnie what part of fl. you in?


----------



## Ronnie T

Jeff57 said:


> John 10:27-29 solves it for me.  27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.



John 10:27-29 doesn't solve it for you or for me.  Those verses were spoken for the sake of the Jewish Pharisees that had kicked a man out of the synagogue for confessing Jesus was the Messiah.

Jesus was saying to them:  "You have no control over my sheep.  You can't kick them out of anything."

Begin reading at chap 9:22.


----------



## christianhunter

As for words of "wisdom" there will be none.As for quoting Scripture,enough has been quoted.I base my Salvation,and everyone elses Salvation from our word of Testimony.That is Scriptural!
I Trust in GOD alone,and The Saving Blood,Of our LORD JESUS THE CHRIST.The only work that needed to be done,was done at The Cross.Amen!


----------



## Ronnie T

christianhunter said:


> As for words of "wisdom" there will be none.As for quoting Scripture,enough has been quoted.I base my Salvation,and everyone elses Salvation from our word of Testimony.That is Scriptural!
> I Trust in GOD alone,and The Saving Blood,Of our LORD JESUS THE CHRIST.The only work that needed to be done,was done at The Cross.Amen!



You give a good response.
A person in Christ will trust in Christ and will get up every day longing to be closer to Him.
And I'll just bet you do that every day.
I hope things are going well for you Michael.


----------



## centerpin fan

Posts 87 and 89 -- well said, RT.


----------



## hawglips

Jeff57 said:


> You're contradicting yourself.  You say you're not adding works but you listed 11 things we must do to gain eternal life.



No contradiction at all.  

But on the other hand, those who say that a person can't do anything to gain eternal life, but at the same time say it's necessary to be born again, and repent, and accept Jesus -- those are the one's contradicting themselves.   They are saying you can't do anything, but yet you must do some things.... 

Which is it?

It's all very simple.  It's not some deep, nebulous doctrine that requires parsing of words or twisting of meanings to comprehend.  No need to pretend Christ didn't say we had to do certain things to gain eternal life.  He did.  It's silly for us to suggest otherwise.  And Paul didn't contradict Christ or James.

Christ's gift of the atonement is free.  Paul stressed that.  Without it, nothing we do will ever save us.  It's all for naught.  The people of Paul's day were accustomed to the rote, ritualistic Mosaic Law.  Paul emphasized how that was all done away with now.  With Christ's great atoning sacrifice, we are given the opportunity to do those things Christ said were necessary to do -- repent, believe on Him, follow Him, obey His commandments, and thus gain eternal life.

Did He do away with the need to obey the commandments?  Not by any stretch of the imagination.  In fact, he tightened down on us.  Instead of an eye for an eye, we are now to turn the other cheek.  Instead of not committing adultery by physically laying with another woman, we now can't look upon one and lust after her without committing adultery in our hearts.  

When we fall short, and stumble, His atoning blood covers us -- if we repent.   A broken heart and a contrite spirit are what he requires from us, instead of a sacrifice of an unblemished lamb or bullock.  And He's told us we must obey His commandments, serve our fellow man, and be perfect (even as Christ and the Father are perfect) and endure to the end -- i.e., keep repenting and trying to do better.  That requires an ongoing effort.  

We can't use being "saved" as an excuse for sinning, or for being lazy in service.  We must walk the walk, to the end.  The Lord looks on the heart, and knows when we are seeking to gratify our own passions rather than follow His will.  We do it at the peril of being shut out, and numbered with the goats.


----------



## Israel

I sometimes wonder if we make Christ more of a burden than all of the law, commandments, instructions, washings, ablutions, abstentions, sacrifices and penalties then are contained from Genesis to Malachi.

I sometimes wonder if we fail to believe Christ is "how things are" and instead try to make things into how they ought to be.

There is not one thing foreign to Christ that can abide the revelation of his glory.
I am not sure any of my "trying to do better" accomplishes anything except demonstrate a failed understanding of what Christ has done. And who he is.

I see a great gulf between a man who hears Christ say "be ye therefore perfect" and tries to be so.

And a man who hears Christ say "be ye therefore perfect" and says, OK, Lord, since you say so.

The power to bring all things into conformity with himself is in Christ alone...who cannot be separated from his word.

The same one who said "let there be light..."
is the one who says "be perfect", what can resist his command? 
Surely not this bit of dirt and water called me.

And so I watch and listen.

And if I am to discover I have heard incorrectly, if I am to discover my hearing is reprobate, if I am to discover my portion is with the goats...it does not change the simple truth of everything in creation, all Glory to the Lamb, for Jesus is Lord.


----------



## thedeacon

The talents that you have are gifts from God;
The way that you use them are your gifts back to God.

I simply don't understand anyone that says;  You don't have to use your talents that God has given you because that would be considered works. How rediculas.

God expects more of us that just sitting and believing that God exist. Works as some want to call, baptism, fasting, praying, loving your neighbor, etc. Is a part of Christian life.

Its a way of life, it is second nature, we do it without thinking. 

Are works a part of salvation???? Well if you don't have works you surely don't have faith and you are surely not obeying God.

Is baptism, fasting, prayer etc. works? I don't think so, I think they are acts of obediance.

But then who am I? Just a dum ole country boy.


----------



## Randy

Deacon, I agree with you.  I think the discussion here is actually salvation.  I believe you recieve salavation first  and then you begin to work.  Some work harder than others, some work longer than others, some do little work at all some, like Paul, some really work hard!

I do not believe that salvation is dependent on these works.  That is where your rewards come from.


----------



## gtparts

Thank you, Israel, thedeacon, and Randy. Collectively, you have summarized what I have attempted to post. 

Scripture tells me I can know that I am saved, I can know it now, and I can experience much of what salvation is, in the here and now.

Further, whatever I do in accord with His will, is really not my doing, but allowing Him to work in and through me. May I never take credit for any of it. That He allows me to participate in the joyous tasks He has set before me is simply more of His grace poured out upon me. What a tragedy to be passed over for such joy because I thought I could acquire more or better on my own, to deceive myself into believing that any of us, especially me, are ever more than stewards, either good and faithful or wicked and lazy as the last in Matt. 25:26.

We enter with nothing, we own nothing while we are here, and we leave with Jesus in our hearts or we leave with nothing.

Life may be complex and difficult, but it can and always will be condensed into the response to this one question, "Who is Jesus Christ to you?"  No other question, no other answer matters.


----------



## SneekEE

Ronnie T said:


> I disagree with one thing you say.  Maybe two.
> 
> We do indeed share in the receiving of salvation.
> 1.  We will not receive salvation until we seek it.
> 2.  We will not receive salvation until we accept it.



I agree we dissagree then, lol!. there are none who seeks after God, He seeks us.If we have to seek it to be saved, then none would ever be saved, cause none would seek.Thankfully the Lord will seek us though. I dont realy know what you mean by accepting salvation, unless you mean believing the gospel is true? Of course without faith we can not be saved.That is why I am thankfull to God that He gave me the faith I needed to believe!


----------



## Ronnie T

gtparts said:


> Thank you, Israel, thedeacon, and Randy. Collectively, you have summarized what I have attempted to post.
> 
> Scripture tells me I can know that I am saved, I can know it now, and I can experience much of what salvation is, in the here and now.
> 
> Further, whatever I do in accord with His will, is really not my doing, but allowing Him to work in and through me. May I never take credit for any of it. That He allows me to participate in the joyous tasks He has set before me is simply more of His grace poured out upon me. What a tragedy to be passed over for such joy because I thought I could acquire more or better on my own, to deceive myself into believing that any of us, especially me, are ever more than stewards, either good and faithful or wicked and lazy as the last in Matt. 25:26.
> 
> We enter with nothing, we own nothing while we are here, and we leave with Jesus in our hearts or we leave with nothing.
> 
> Life may be complex and difficult, but it can and always will be condensed into the response to this one question, "Who is Jesus Christ to you?"  No other question, no other answer matters.



And I agree with everything you've said here.
If you are saved, it will affect your life.  You don't control it and you can't stop it.  There will be fruit.
It is not you who get the credit, it is Christ who lives in you.

.


----------



## Ronnie T

SneekEE said:


> I agree we dissagree then, lol!. there are none who seeks after God, He seeks us.If we have to seek it to be saved, then none would ever be saved, cause none would seek.Thankfully the Lord will seek us though. I dont realy know what you mean by accepting salvation, unless you mean believing the gospel is true? Of course without faith we can not be saved.That is why I am thankfull to God that He gave me the faith I needed to believe!




Here's all I 'm saying.
In Acts 2 Peter preached the gospel.
Many of those who heard said:  "What shall we do?"... That means they wanted it, they sought it.

They then became a part of Christ's chruch.

Many there on that day heard but did not receive.
They did not receive because they would not accept.


----------



## Ronnie T

SneekEE said:


> I agree we dissagree then, lol!. there are none who seeks after God
> Knock and the door will be open, Seek and you will find.
> Acts 17:27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him
> Romans 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
> Hebrews 11:6 ...anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
> 
> 
> , He seeks us.If we have to seek it to be saved, then none would ever be saved, cause none would seek.Thankfully the Lord will seek us though. I dont realy know what you mean by accepting salvation,All throughout the gospel, as the gospel was proclaimed, some accepted and some did not.  Acts 8:14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had *accepted* the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them.
> unless you mean believing the gospel is true? Of course without faith we can not be saved.That is why I am thankfull to God that He gave me the faith I needed to believe!



What say you?


----------



## Ronnie T

Randy said:


> Deacon, I agree with you.  I think the discussion here is actually salvation.  I believe you recieve salavation first  and then you begin to work.  Some work harder than others, some work longer than others, some do little work at all some, like Paul, some really work hard!
> 
> I do not believe that salvation is dependent on these works.  That is where your rewards come from.



Please enlighten me in regard to "heavenly rewards"

Compare a person who is saved but during the rest of their life has no works at all............ to a person who becomes saved and their salvation results in them doing God's work for the remainder of their life.
What will be the difference for these two in heaven?


----------



## Randy

Ronnie T said:


> Please enlighten me in regard to "heavenly rewards"
> 
> Compare a person who is saved but during the rest of their life has no works at all............ to a person who becomes saved and their salvation results in them doing God's work for the remainder of their life.
> What will be the difference for these two in heaven?


I don't have the access to the scriptures right now but the Bible talks of rewards and rewards being different for Pastors/teachers and others.  I use to think when we all got to Heaven we would be the same but people have shown me the scriptures where we have rewards.


----------



## SneekEE

Ronnie T said:


> Here's all I 'm saying.
> In Acts 2 Peter preached the gospel.
> Many of those who heard said:  "What shall we do?"... That means they wanted it, they sought it.
> 
> They then became a part of Christ's chruch.
> 
> Many there on that day heard but did not receive.
> They did not receive because they would not accept.



Yes, but they did not ask what to do untill after the gospel was preached. What i am saying is no man will seek after God untill God draws that man, through the preaching of the gospel, and a working of the Holy Spirit. It is simply not possible according to the bible.There are some who falsly seek Him, but they are not seeking the true God of the bible. And there are some who pretend to love Him, but untill He actualy saves them, and changes there nature, they cant love Him. He will do a work on the one he draws, changing there nature, open there eyes if you will, so that they can then come to him.Just as He hardened pharos heart, he can soften ours. But man left alone in there sinfull nature, they will never seek God. That is why it is so important to preach the gospel, it give you beutifull feet as well. Its not that God can not save anyone how ever He wants, it is that He has chosen to do so through  the preaching of His word.
Rom. 10:  13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 

 14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 

 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 

Short bus version, man apart from God hates God, hates the Light, hates His commandments because of his nature. Unless God chooses to draw that man through the preaching of the gospel and a work of His spirit, then that man will not, nor can not, seek God. And if God is not seeking him, then all the prayers in the world will not save him.


----------



## SneekEE

Ronnie T said:


> What say you?



When he said seek and you will find, I dont see where He is refering to salvation. It seems to me He is speaking to those who follow Him, not to those who do not.

Yes there are bible verses that speak of men seeking God, I am not saying they do not seek Him, I am saying unless He draws them first, they will not seek Him.look at what you wrote,  acts 17 , what took place b4 it said man seeks Him? There was a "work" of God first, not a work of man.

I dont understand why you used Rom. 2 verse. It is referring to a self seeking man, not a God seeking man.

Hebrews 11:6, of course God rewards those who seek Him, but that verse did not say that God did not cause the person to first seek Him.

Acts 8:14, sorry, my bible does not say accepted, and i do not accept the word accepted, lol. Acts 8 goes on to read that after they recieved the word of God, or accepted, then the apostles prayed for them because they had not recieved the Holy Ghost. So even though your bible says they accepted the word of God, it did not get them saved did it? Now get this, I have said over and over that it is God who first does the seeking, and He does it through the preaching of His word and the working of His Spirit. 

I suppose you used Acts 18:14 to help me to see my error. But Acts 8:14 says exactly what I have been saying. Go back and read it again, what happened prior to the men "seeking" God? Or in other words, when it says the recieved the word of God, wouldnt that mean that they heard the word first. And if ACCEPTING the word got you saved, then why does it say that after "accepting" the word that they were still lost, the Holy Spirit had not been recieved, they were not born again after "accepting".


Ephesians 2:1 says that we Christians were all once "dead in trespasses and sins." The point of deadness is that we were incapable of any life with God. Our hearts were like a stone toward God (Ephesians 4:18; Ezekiel 36:26). Our hearts were blind and incapable of seeing the glory of God in Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4-6). We were totally unable to reform ourselves


Romans 8:Romans 8:7-8 (King James Version)

 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, *neither indeed can be*. 

 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Rom. 3:9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 

 10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 

That is very clear, there is none who seek after God. so if you see a verse that says some do seek after God, then most likly you have missunderstood the verse, cause I dont believe there are any contradictions in the bible.


A lost person can not do good works.

Matthew 7:17-18,

Consider this. You agree that a man must believe Jesus is lord if he is to be saved? Rom. 10:9 speaks of confession by mouth. Yet 1 Cor. 12:3 says no man can do that unless it is a work iof God done in him by the Holy Ghost. So no man can say that he believes Jesus is His Lord unless God first works in that man by His Spirit.

How many pastors tell someone in order to be saved, they must accept Christ and repeat a prayer, making Jesus there Lord. But the bible is clear that the man can not say this and mean it unless the Holy spirit has worked in Him first. Again i am refering to 1 Cor. 12:3.


A lost man can not on his own comprehend the things of God.1 Cor. 2:14

One last time, and I can post scripture after scripture saying this, a lost person can not, and will not, seek God, unless God first seeks the lost man. and draws that man through the gospel, and His spirit.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.




John 6:64-65 
 64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 

 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

God bless.


----------



## SneekEE

Randy said:


> I don't have the access to the scriptures right now but the Bible talks of rewards and rewards being different for Pastors/teachers and others.  I use to think when we all got to Heaven we would be the same but people have shown me the scriptures where we have rewards.



I found this online refering to crowns we will recieve, i dont know myself,  havnt looked into what rewards I may get in heaven. Dont rely care, just beeing with God would seem to be enough.

The Crown of Rejoicing for Soul Winners (1 Thessalonians 2:19-20); 
The Crown of Righteousness for Those Who Love His Return (2 Timothy 4:8); 
The Incorruptible Crown for Victorious Lives of Purity (1 Corinthians 9:25, 27); 
The Crown of Life for Christian Martyrs (Revelation 2:10); 
The Crown of Glory for Faithful Servants (1 Peter 5:4); and 
The Crown of Life to Endure Temptation for the Love of Jesus (James 1:12).


Now one thing that has interested me and i been wanting to study more on this, is where it talks about clothes. If i am correct,i recall reading that our good deeds weave together the linnin that our clothing will be made of.And if a man has not alot of deeds he may feel as if he is naked, or ashamed.I dont know if that is refering to actual clothing, or if you will know what you could have recieved had you done more, and it will be evident to all some how, and you may ashamed that you didnt do more, and all will knno it.But again, it has been a while since i read it. In fact I am not sure if i read it or heared a preacher talk about it. I mean some of it I have read, some of it may have been the preachers way of looking at it, dunno. but it is interesting.


----------



## christianhunter

Ronnie T said:


> You give a good response.
> A person in Christ will trust in Christ and will get up every day longing to be closer to Him.
> And I'll just bet you do that every day.
> I hope things are going well for you Michael.



Things are going well for me my dear Brother,I hope all is well with you.I long everyday to be closer to THE LORD,and everyday fail HIM in some way.That longing to be closer to HIM,cancels out the confessed failures.One day I will be perfect,but it will not be in this vessel I inhabit now.


----------



## farmasis

Ronnie T said:


> Second. Once saved always saved (OSAS) is a doctrinal issue that was invented around the 16th century. It did not exist in the 1st century church and it didn't exist in the 5th century church. They had more important things to do as Christians than deciding who all were going to heaven..


 
completely false.


----------



## Ronnie T

SneekEE said:


> When he said seek and you will find, I dont see where He is refering to salvation. It seems to me He is speaking to those who follow Him, not to those who do not.
> 
> Yes there are bible verses that speak of men seeking God, I am not saying they do not seek Him, I am saying unless He draws them first, they will not seek Him.look at what you wrote,  acts 17 , what took place b4 it said man seeks Him? There was a "work" of God first, not a work of man.
> 
> I dont understand why you used Rom. 2 verse. It is referring to a self seeking man, not a God seeking man.
> 
> Hebrews 11:6, of course God rewards those who seek Him, but that verse did not say that God did not cause the person to first seek Him.
> 
> Acts 8:14, sorry, my bible does not say accepted, and i do not accept the word accepted, lol. Acts 8 goes on to read that after they recieved the word of God, or accepted, then the apostles prayed for them because they had not recieved the Holy Ghost. So even though your bible says they accepted the word of God, it did not get them saved did it? Now get this, I have said over and over that it is God who first does the seeking, and He does it through the preaching of His word and the working of His Spirit. Agree
> 
> I suppose you used Acts 18:14 to help me to see my error. But Acts 8:14 says exactly what I have been saying. Go back and read it again, what happened prior to the men "seeking" God? Or in other words, when it says the recieved the word of God, wouldnt that mean that they heard the word first.Agree And if ACCEPTING the word got you saved, then why does it say that after "accepting" the word that they were still lost, the Holy Spirit had not been recieved, they were not born again after "accepting".  I'm sure that both of us agree that a person must accept Jesus as Lord in order to be saved.
> 
> 
> Ephesians 2:1 says that we Christians were all once "dead in trespasses and sins." The point of deadness is that we were incapable of any life with God. Our hearts were like a stone toward God (Ephesians 4:18; Ezekiel 36:26). Our hearts were blind and incapable of seeing the glory of God in Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4-6). We were totally unable to reform ourselves
> 
> 
> Romans 8:Romans 8:7-8 (King James Version)
> 
> 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, *neither indeed can be*.
> 
> 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
> 
> 
> Rom. 3:9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
> 
> 10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
> 
> 11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
> 
> That is very clear, there is none who seek after God. so if you see a verse that says some do seek after God, then most likly you have missunderstood the verse, cause I dont believe there are any contradictions in the bible.
> 
> 
> A lost person can not do good works.
> 
> Matthew 7:17-18,
> 
> Consider this. You agree that a man must believe Jesus is lord if he is to be saved? Rom. 10:9 speaks of confession by mouth. Yet 1 Cor. 12:3 says no man can do that unless it is a work iof God done in him by the Holy Ghost. So no man can say that he believes Jesus is His Lord unless God first works in that man by His Spirit.
> 
> How many pastors tell someone in order to be saved, they must accept Christ and repeat a prayer, making Jesus there Lord. But the bible is clear that the man can not say this and mean it unless the Holy spirit has worked in Him first. Again i am refering to 1 Cor. 12:3.
> 
> 
> A lost man can not on his own comprehend the things of God.1 Cor. 2:14
> 
> One last time, and I can post scripture after scripture saying this, a lost person can not, and will not, seek God, unless God first seeks the lost man. and draws that man through the gospel, and His spirit.  I absolutely agree.  A man can never seek Jesus as Lord if he's never heard of Jesus or His gospel.
> Howbout Corneilus.  He sought, then God sent Peter to him?
> Never mind Sneakee, I'm just trying to be a trouble maker tonight I guess.  Probably because I got to help my wife and daughter with a yard sale tomorrow.
> 
> John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John 6:64-65
> 64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
> 
> 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
> 
> God bless.



From your comments I can see that you and I are in agreement on the subject of a person accepting Jesus as Lord.  We're just stating it from different starting points.


----------



## farmasis

God has prepared the way so that we may seek Him.

When Paul stood in Athens and preached to the highest educated men, he claimed the God they worshipped and did not know, and said that he has pre-appointed a time that they if they seek him they will find him (Acts 17:22-27)

It is obvious that seeking God can lead to salvation...that is His plan.

 <SUP id=en-NASB-22430 class=versenum>*6*</SUP>"Seek the LORD that you may live,
  Or He will break forth like a fire, O house of Joseph,
  And it will consume with none to quench it for Bethel, (Amos 5)


    <SUP id=en-NASB-18584 class=versenum>*22*</SUP>"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
         For I am God, and there is no other. (Is. 45)

for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever. (1 Chron 28:9)


----------



## Israel

I believe sometimes that we forget the power of God's creative word is in that very word.
No man can seek God until God says to him..."seek me".
Now, that may come in the spirit (must always actually come in the spirit), the scripture, come through the mouth of a disciple, come through the Lord Jesus himself...

Isa 55:10  For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 
Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please,_ and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. _

Jesus admonished those with ears to hear to hear.
The word of God is spread like seed, we really don't know who in particular it may be for, but we are confident that if we are faithful to speak, God will accomplish what he desires.
True, it is given to some prophets to know exactly what someone was to hear, and Jesus himself knew when he prophesied to Peter of his denial it was for him.
(one could argue that Peter could not help but deny the Lord...as when the Lord says something it _must_ _come to pass_)
Does that make the Lord the minister of that denial? 
No. 
But for God's purposes, seeing the exact nature of Peter's heart God had chosen that Peter would come to a deeper understanding of who Jesus is and who he himself (Peter) was, by going through that experience.
I believe we have all benefited from that...or can.
It is easy for us to imagine how much we love God...but it is always vain. 
God alone knows who is loving him, who loves him.
It also shows us that "knowing Jesus after the flesh"...that is walking in his fleshly presence is of no greater benefit...that indeed, only the spirit gives life.
How many times have you or I heard (or thought), "Gee, if only I could have walked with Jesus and seen his miracles...(then I'd probably be a greater disciple...)".
The Lord wants us to know that if we aren't, right now, walking in the spirit (and the above question indicates we are not) we are not "near" Jesus. 
That was why Jesus also told the rich man his brothers had "Moses and the prophets..." in other words, all they needed to know that righteousness already was a "real thing"...it would not benefit them to see one come back from the dead.
We may think that Jesus is plan B to the result of our sin in plan A...but he is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 
In God's good time he chose to manifest that amongst us. 
But God is salvation from the beginning. And so he remains so.
All we can ever do is agree. And God credits that to us as righteousness.
No man can believe God is as good as he is apart from God. We have nothing of ourselves, neither our own most sublime love, devotion, compassion, faithfulness and mercy that does anything but wither in the light of who he is.


----------



## SneekEE

farmasis said:


> God has prepared the way so that we may seek Him.
> 
> When Paul stood in Athens and preached to the highest educated men, he claimed the God they worshipped and did not know, and said that he has pre-appointed a time that they if they seek him they will find him (Acts 17:22-27)
> 
> It is obvious that seeking God can lead to salvation...that is His plan.
> 
> <SUP id=en-NASB-22430 class=versenum>*6*</SUP>"Seek the LORD that you may live,
> Or He will break forth like a fire, O house of Joseph,
> And it will consume with none to quench it for Bethel, (Amos 5)
> 
> 
> <SUP id=en-NASB-18584 class=versenum>*22*</SUP>"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
> For I am God, and there is no other. (Is. 45)
> 
> for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever. (1 Chron 28:9)



Yes, you said it, God made away for men to seek Him. men left alone without God dooing anything will never seek Him. that is what i have been saying all along. Unless God first seeks us, we will never seek Him.


----------



## SneekEE

Ronnie T said:


> From your comments I can see that you and I are in agreement on the subject of a person accepting Jesus as Lord.  We're just stating it from different starting points.



Yes, your  veiw seems to start with the man seeking, i start with God seeking the man first. No glory what so ever should be given to the man for his salvation. It is all Gods glory to save a man. We often say... I got saved. But that is wrong. We should say, when God saved me.We didnt do anything to get saved, it  is Gad who saved us.You may have accepted the gift of salvation, but had God left you alone in your sinfull state, you would not only had rejected His gift, you would proly have spit on it. The moment we say we did anything to obtain salvation, we add works to it, and take away from Gods glory.If a person thinks salvation is  a work 99.9999999999999% God, and 0.0000000000000001% them , then they are probably lost. To God be the glory, great things He has done, where as our most rightous act is like a filthy rag.At least that is my opinion.


----------



## emtguy

farmasis said:


> completely false.



please prove or reference where you got the information this is false...dont just say its false, back it up. Im interested in studying this.


----------



## grinstead9

amen ronnie   your right on with it brother


----------



## farmasis

emtguy said:


> please prove or reference where you got the information this is false...dont just say its false, back it up. Im interested in studying this.


 

Use the search feature. I have been there done that. Or, just start with the Apostle's creed (circa 2nd century).

If we need an exhaustive list of scriptures to support eternal salvation...I will again.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
    the Maker of heaven and earth,
    and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
    born of the virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
    and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
    from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
    the holy catholic church;
    the communion of saints;
    the forgiveness of sins;
    the resurrection of the body;
    and the life everlasting.
Amen.


----------



## Lowjack

farmasis said:


> Use the search feature. I have been there done that. Or, just start with the Apostle's creed (circa 2nd century).
> 
> If we need an exhaustive list of scriptures to support eternal salvation...I will again.
> 
> I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
> the Maker of heaven and earth,
> and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
> Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
> born of the virgin Mary,
> suffered under Pontius Pilate,
> was crucified, dead, and buried;
> He descended into Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.
> The third day He arose again from the dead;
> He ascended into heaven,
> and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
> from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
> I believe in the Holy Ghost;
> the holy catholic church;
> the communion of saints;
> the forgiveness of sins;
> the resurrection of the body;
> and the life everlasting.
> Amen.



I don't see in this creed where Yeshua is the great Iam, It only says our Lord so it falls short of Exalting him to where he should be , GOD !


----------



## Diogenes

WTM45 says: “Come on, fellas.
There is an entire world of "unbelievers" who simply want a concise answer to such a deep quandry with irreparable eternal ramifications.

Ole Diogenes will have a field day on this one.”

Well . . . Um . . .  Er . . .  

Maybe.

But, seriously, I’m still not sure what this whole ‘Salvation’ thing means, exactly.  The word falls in between ‘Salvarsan,’ which is the name of a drug, and ‘Salvation Army,’ which rings bells, collects cash, and sells discount clothing and sofas, at least in my dictionary . . .

What does one do with a bracketing like that?

I guess I have a bit of a definition problem when someone, a fellow human being for example, offers to ‘Save’ me from threats that He alone has thought up.  And ALL I have to do, to be SAVED from the demons of my fellow man’s imaginings, is OBEY HIM without question.  REALLY?  

Um?

And I guess that if anyone, like one of my fellow human beings for example, is willing to offer that He ALONE is correct in all of this abstraction, and that total agreement with HIS point of view will actually SAVE me from the gruesome eternal fate he suggests I’ll suffer for failing to agree with HIM, and HIM alone, it becomes fairly difficult for me to suppress my giggling.

I try, I really do, to respect the ‘State Of The Nation’ gravity and seriousness that y’all attach to your particular and disparate ‘beliefs.’  But you have to admit, you make it pretty tough to take you fellas seriously when you devolve into this sort of factional nonsense again and again --  At least in theory the bulk of you fellas adhere to a central concept – Christianity – but you demonstrate time and again that this concept is purely personal, and is subject to endless interpretation, supposition, revision, and often violent disagreement.  

That is hardly encouraging.  Does someone really think that anyone can be convinced to sign on to the ‘Salvation’ offered by a group that can’t even agree on what ‘Salvation’ really means?  Is one point of view ‘Saving’ me from being victimized by the other?  Is one ‘Truth’ telling me that the other is Untrue, and that their own ‘Truth’ trumps the next guy’s ‘Truth’?

The only thing I see as ‘Automatic’ is that the moment one person makes an assertion, any assertion, from a weather prediction to a political opinion to a statement about all eternity, nearly everyone else will rise up immediately to disagree.  

All that tells me is that nobody knows for sure, which would tend, to a thinking mind, to indicate that everyone making such assertions must, ipso facto, be wrong . . .


----------



## Jeff57

Ronnie T said:


> John 10:27-29 doesn't solve it for you or for me.  Those verses were spoken for the sake of the Jewish Pharisees that had kicked a man out of the synagogue for confessing Jesus was the Messiah.
> 
> Jesus was saying to them:  "You have no control over my sheep.  You can't kick them out of anything."
> 
> Begin reading at chap 9:22.


Verses 10:25 - 10:30 are a direct response to the question in verse 24.  The context of this dialog may have started with the man getting kicked out of the synagogue but at this point Jesus is clearly addressing the unbelief of the Pharisees.  He was not telling them they had no control over His sheep, He was describing His relationship with His sheep.  Read verses 27 through 30 again.  These versus stand on their own irregardless of context.

I am curious about your stance on OSAS. Can you give me an example of how someone who is saved can loose their salvation?  Is it through excessive sin or their attitude toward sin?  


I enjoy reasoning through the word like this.  I don't usually post on the forums because my job, ministry and family keep me busy and I can't respond as quickly as I would like to.  It may take me a day or two to respond but I look forward to your response.


----------



## Ronnie T

Hey Jeff,
I don't have a lot of time to spend on this tonight so let me just place a couple of scriptures here for you to read and compare to each other.

These scriptures probably are as good as any at pointing out my doubts concerning this subject.


John 10:27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 
29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 

Now, with those scriptures in mind, read the following.

Hebrew 8:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 


*Hebrews 8 speaks of jewish converts who have been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift, but have now fallen away and put Jesus Christ to open shame.

Apostasy is still occurring today.  Paul told the elders in Ephesus that a great apostasy would occur and it would begin within the church.  Meaning:  Christians would leave the faith.  Christians would not only sin, but they would become enemies of the church and of Jesus Christ.
That continues to happen today.

Jesus had said that His sheep hear and know His voice.  Today, many who were His sheep no longer hear His voice or listen for His voice.
And I have seen nothing to cause me to believe Jesus would save one who had purposely turned from Him and His voice.

That's about the best I can explain my beliefs tonight.

*My great concern with the OSAS teaching is that a person might falsely believe he is eternally saved because of something he barely remembers doing or saying 30 years ago....... And during those 30 years he's never given God or Jesus Christ a second thought.

God bless you my new friend. 
Stop by more often.


----------



## farmasis

Ronnie...where is the breaking point between falling away, and just sinning? Almost every Christian here admits they continue to sin. So, does one sin take your salvation away? If so, when you repent, are you restored? If not one, how many...what does it take to fall away?

Because reading Hebrews 6:4 (not 8:4) through your eyes, salvation is a one time offer, and if you break it too bad. Examine the latter part of the same chapter when Paul says there are 2 unchangeable things.. God cannot lie and the hope we have through Jesus Christ that anchors our soul surely and steadfastly.

I think Paul is saying it would be impossible if they were to fall away to be renewed again...but that it is not possible to do that in light of his other teachings....such as...him saying nothing can seperate us from God (Romans 8:38), that the Holy Spirit dwells in us as a seal until the promise of salvation comes (Eph 4:30), and that we are now a new creature uncapable of returning to our former selves (2 Cor. 5)

My fear of those who do not understand the greatness of eternal salvation will not realize the wonderful thing Christ did for us. He was not just another sacrifice to take our sins away temporarily. He was the ultimate appeasement of God's wrath for us. He took all our sins on his back (Titus 2:14). He was pierced for our transgression and crushed for our iniquities. The punishment he bore brought us peace with God, and through his wounds we are healed! This is not just until we mess up. God came to die for us, then to live in us as promised by his new covenant. God's Holy Spirit is able to keep you from falling (Jude 1:24) and is our guarantee and our only blessed hope for salvation (Eph 1:13)


----------



## hawglips

Randy said:


> I do not believe that salvation is dependent on these works.  That is where your rewards come from.



So, you believe that one doesn't have to do anything to get saved?


----------



## farmasis

hawglips said:


> So, you believe that one doesn't have to do anything to get saved?


 
Randy believes everyone is saved at birth...then chooses to be unsaved during their life through sin.

Apologies to Randy for answering for him...correct me if I am wrong.

I, on the other hand, believe all you have to do is confess that Jesus is your Lord and Savior and believe in your heart he died for your sins and you are saved.


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> I, on the other hand, believe all you have to do is confess that Jesus is your Lord and Savior and believe in your heart he died for your sins and you are saved.



What if you completely renounce this belief and live your life accordingly?


----------



## thedeacon

I believe that you need to read the bible and obey the commands of Jesus Christ our lord. 

There is only one thing worse than making salvation too complicated and thats making it too simple.

Regardless to what you say and practice we all know that God demands obediance. Why not just read the word and obey.


----------



## Jeff57

Ronnie T said:


> Hey Jeff,
> I don't have a lot of time to spend on this tonight so let me just place a couple of scriptures here for you to read and compare to each other.
> 
> These scriptures probably are as good as any at pointing out my doubts concerning this subject.
> 
> 
> John 10:27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
> 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
> 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
> 
> Now, with those scriptures in mind, read the following.
> 
> Hebrew 8:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
> 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
> 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
> 
> *Hebrews 8 speaks of jewish converts who have been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift, but have now fallen away and put Jesus Christ to open shame.



Hi Ronnie,  I can see how these verses (Chapter 6) would lead you to believe someone can loose their salvation but only if you go on the premise that Christians are being addressed here. Where else in scripture is Christian faith addressed with words such as enlightenment and tasting heavenly gifts.  As Christians we're heirs in Christ.  We're not just partakers of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit abides within us.  These verses are to the unbeliever that has a full understanding of the gospel, is learned in the scriptures but is still on the fence and hasn't accepted Christ as savior.



Ronnie T said:


> Apostasy is still occurring today.  Paul told the elders in Ephesus that a great apostasy would occur and it would begin within the church.  Meaning:  Christians would leave the faith.  Christians would not only sin, but they would become enemies of the church and of Jesus Christ.
> That continues to happen today.
> 
> Jesus had said that His sheep hear and know His voice.  Today, many who were His sheep no longer hear His voice or listen for His voice.
> And I have seen nothing to cause me to believe Jesus would save one who had purposely turned from Him and His voice.


I don't believe anyone who knows Jesus as Lord and Savior could purposely turn from Him.  If they can, they never knew Him.



Ronnie T said:


> That's about the best I can explain my beliefs tonight.
> 
> *My great concern with the OSAS teaching is that a person might falsely believe he is eternally saved because of something he barely remembers doing or saying 30 years ago....... And during those 30 years he's never given God or Jesus Christ a second thought.



I too have this concern but not because of OSAS.    My problem is that many pastors and laymen today preach easy believism. 
Pastor:  "Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for your sins?"
Lost Person: Yes.
Pastor: "Praise God, You're saved."

No brokenness over sin, no repentance, no desire to follow Jesus.


God Bless you my friend.  I pray that the Lord will lead us both to rightly divide His word.


----------



## centerpin fan

Jeff57 said:


> I don't believe anyone who knows Jesus as Lord and Savior could purposely turn from Him.



I do.  I believe it happens all the time.


----------



## Randy

farmasis said:


> Randy believes everyone is saved at birth...then chooses to be unsaved during their life through sin.
> 
> Apologies to Randy for answering for him...correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> I, on the other hand, believe all you have to do is confess that Jesus is your Lord and Savior and believe in your heart he died for your sins and you are saved.


Kind of sort of but it is deeper than that.  I believe it is clear in Romans that God told Paul EVERY man was given Rightousness through the death of Jesus Christ when Jesus was hung on the cross.  He did not say those who saw it, those who at some age of accountability etc but ALL MAN from that point on.  Paul even questioned this commenting that The Law was no longer necessary.  Paul did not think it was fair.

Yes I believe you are born with this "rightousness."  The word "saved" is a man made word meaning a believer and one who "accepts" Jesus as your savior.  It is not really an acceptance any more than you "accepting" the arm you are born with.  It is just there just as is your arm.  Once you hear the Word and understand it's meaning and what happened, that is when you are a "believer" and you keep that rightousness.  If you never get to hear the word, you are still covered in His rightouness.  If you hear the word and do not believe it, you reject that rightousness just as you would cut off that arm you are born with if you did not believe it was necessary.

Of course that is what I believe and in the end the results are the same.  A more traditional belief in "acceptance" as the only way to Heaven means all those who never got the chance to "accept" never get to Heaven.


----------



## Lowjack

Randy said:


> Kind of sort of but it is deeper than that.  I believe it is clear in Romans that God told Paul EVERY man was given Rightousness through the death of Jesus Christ when Jesus was hung on the cross.  He did not say those who saw it, those who at some age of accountability etc but ALL MAN from that point on.  Paul even questioned this commenting that The Law was no longer necessary.  Paul did not think it was fair.
> 
> Yes I believe you are born with this "rightousness."  The word "saved" is a man made word meaning a believer and one who "accepts" Jesus as your savior.  It is not really an acceptance any more than you "accepting" the arm you are born with.  It is just there just as is your arm.  Once you hear the Word and understand it's meaning and what happened, that is when you are a "believer" and you keep that rightousness.  If you never get to hear the word, you are still covered in His rightouness.  If you hear the word and do not believe it, you reject that rightousness just as you would cut off that arm you are born with if you did not believe it was necessary.
> 
> Of course that is what I believe and in the end the results are the same.  A more traditional belief in "acceptance" as the only way to Heaven means all those who never got the chance to "accept" never get to Heaven.



Saved is a man made word ?


----------



## Ronnie T

Jeff,
Do you really believe the following words were used to discribe unbelievers??????????????

Hebrew 8:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 
6and then have fallen away,


I'm a nondenominational preacher.  Can you give me the name of a published theologian that I might be familiar with that holds your beliefs on this subject?


----------



## farmasis

centerpin fan said:


> What if you completely renounce this belief and live your life accordingly?


 
Kinda two part answer....

first, you never would if you truly did, because like the verse said..once you tasted the heavenly gifts, you wouldn't give them back--so it goes back to the never was truly saved answer (they did not remain with us, because they were not part of us)

second, if truly saved, the Holy Spirit who keeps you from falling would prevent that, possibly by shortening your life before you could.


----------



## farmasis

Lowjack said:


> Saved is a man made word ?


 
What words are not man made?


----------



## farmasis

Ronnie T said:


> Jeff,
> Do you really believe the following words were used to discribe unbelievers??????????????
> 
> Hebrew 8:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
> 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
> 6and then have fallen away,
> 
> 
> I'm a nondenominational preacher. Can you give me the name of a published theologian that I might be familiar with that holds your beliefs on this subject?


 
Ronnie....Hebrews 6:4--- you might confuse folks.


----------



## Ronnie T

In the words of CS Lewis:

Why on earth would God force someone to spend eternity with Him who has no interest in that option.


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> Kinda two part answer....
> 
> first, you never would if you truly did, because like the verse said..once you tasted the heavenly gifts, you wouldn't give them back--so it goes back to the never was truly saved answer (they did not remain with us, because they were not part of us)
> 
> second, if truly saved, the Holy Spirit who keeps you from falling would prevent that, possibly by shortening your life before you could.




No fair making stuff up.  I kinda hold myself to the scriptural aspect of it all.


----------



## SneekEE

farmasis said:


> What words are not man made?



woof woof and meow are 2 that come to mind.


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> Kinda two part answer....
> 
> first, you never would if you truly did, because like the verse said..once you tasted the heavenly gifts, you wouldn't give them back--so it goes back to the never was truly saved answer (they did not remain with us, because they were not part of us)
> 
> second, if truly saved, the Holy Spirit who keeps you from falling would prevent that, possibly by shortening your life before you could.



This all strikes me as being too clever by half (and I know you didn't come up with this, so don't take it personally.)  To me, OSAS is like Marxism:  it sounds good in theory, but it completely breaks down in practice.  When someone leaves the faith, OSAS forces you to say that the person was never truly saved, which no mortal man can honestly do.  Just off the top of my head, I can think of two deeply committed Christians from my church who left the faith.  One became a fervent atheist who would put Christopher Hitchens to shame.  The other was actually a minister of the church.  He renounced his faith and joined the Nation of Islam.


----------



## Ronnie T

1 Timothy 3:6
He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

How could a Christian fall under the same judgment as the devil??


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> Ronnie....Hebrews 6:4--- you might confuse folks.



That's no the first time in my life I've done that.


----------



## SneekEE

Salvation is of the LORD.  Jonah 2:9

salvation is not of you, you did nothing to get it, not your prayers, not your works, not your decision to recieve Him.

John 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 

 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13

The power to save you is Gods, and the power to keep you saved is Gods. By the power of His spirit, He has sealed you, and you cant unseal it.You belong to Him, He will not lose you.

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 

 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13-14



the day he sealed you, he changed you, and will continue to do regardless of your will. He said he would continue this work, and He will.

6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 

Christ was perfect, without sin.He came to do Gods will, and He did just that.If anyone that Christ saved, became lost again, then that would make Him a failure, and a lier.

John 6
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 

 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 

 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

If Jesus said He would not lose any that the father gave to Him, how can we say He will?

He will not loose a single one that He saves, because it is not our will to be saved ,, it is not our decision to stay saved, it is Gods will, and He will perform what He said He would do.

2 Tim. 4:18, "And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

We are His work, not our own. To God be the glory for the great things He has done.

Ephesians 2:10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

God bless and keep you all!


----------



## Ronnie T

Let's all have a contest.

First, I'll quote a scripture.
Then you quote another scripture that says what you want to say....
Then I'll quote a scripture to says what I want it to say.
Then it'll be your turn again.


----------



## centerpin fan

SneekEE said:


> the day he sealed you, he changed you, and will continue to do regardless of your will. He said he would continue this work, and He will.



As one who does not subscribe to OSAS, I don't disagree with any of the verses you listed.  Where we differ is the phrase I underlined above.  We can always choose to forfeit the gift that we have been freely given.  People do it all the time.


----------



## SneekEE

Ronnie T said:


> Let's all have a contest.
> 
> First, I'll quote a scripture.
> Then you quote another scripture that says what you want to say....
> Then I'll quote a scripture to says what I want it to say.
> Then it'll be your turn again.



 u crack me up!


----------



## SneekEE

centerpin fan said:


> As one who does not subscribe to OSAS, I don't disagree with any of the verses you listed.  Where we differ is the phrase I underlined above.  We can always choose to forfeit the gift that we have been freely given.  People do it all the time.



Nope, Cant see it happening. A person once born again is given a new spirit that desires the things of God. It loves the things God loves and hates the things God hates.God said He would not loose a single person, and I believe Him. God said he would preform the good work in us untill the end and I believe Him.God said He sealed us and i believe Him.God said he would preserve us untill the end and I  believe Him, and I promise you can trust God to be truthfull above anyone elese who said they were saved, then they decided to get lost.Dont work that way. Show me a born again lost again person and I will show you a false convert, who was  probably told he was saved by his preacher cause he said a prayer, then when he didnt get the promised health, wealth, and prosperity that the preacher told him he would recive as a christian. or when he had several bad days in a row and his problems did not go  away, and he discovered that cristians suffer persecution like all others, he simply undecided what he thought he had decided in the beginning, but figured out he was mistaken. That person did not loose his salvation, he never had it to begin with. But that is just my opinion. Just remember, 
Jesus and sneeKKee will always love ya.


----------



## centerpin fan

SneekEE said:


> Nope, Cant see it happening.



I've seen it happen.  The people I mentioned above are just two examples.


----------



## centerpin fan

SneekEE said:


> That person did not loose his salvation, he never had it to begin with.



In many cases, I'm sure you're correct.  However, no mortal man can say that is true in all instances.


----------



## Ronnie T

SneekEE said:


> Nope, Cant see it happening. A person once born again is given a new spirit that desires the things of God. It loves the things God loves and hates the things God hates.God said He would not loose a single person, and I believe Him. God said he would preform the good work in us untill the end and I believe Him.God said He sealed us and i believe Him.God said he would preserve us untill the end and I  believe Him, and I promise you can trust God to be truthfull above anyone elese who said they were saved, then they decided to get lost.Dont work that way. Show me a born again lost again person and I will show you a false convert, who was  probably told he was saved by his preacher cause he said a prayer, then when he didnt get the promised health, wealth, and prosperity that the preacher told him he would recive as a christian. or when he had several bad days in a row and his problems did not go  away, and he discovered that cristians suffer persecution like all others, he simply undecided what he thought he had decided in the beginning, but figured out he was mistaken. That person did not loose his salvation, he never had it to begin with. But that is just my opinion. Just remember,
> Jesus and sneeKKee will always love ya.




1 Thessalonians 5:19Do not quench the Spirit; 


It appears that a Christian can put out the Spirit's fire if they are mindful of the things of God.


----------



## earl

Ronnie T said:


> Let's all have a contest.
> 
> First, I'll quote a scripture.
> Then you quote another scripture that says what you want to say....
> Then I'll quote a scripture to says what I want it to say.
> Then it'll be your turn again.



This needs to be a 5 star sticky !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## hummerpoo

I know I'm going to regret jumping in here.  I have more experience than understanding on this issue.



centerpin fan said:


> What if you completely renounce this belief and live your life accordingly?



I did, for 25 years.

I had no part in my being called to serve God, it was all Him.  I was drawn away by the world, and it seems that I had to do with that, but I always wonder.  He called me back, but that was a completely different experience.

I don't consider my salvation.  The only reason I even care whether I'm saved or not is that I would sort of hate to miss out on eternity with the Lord, but if that's what He has in mind, that's o.k.  What's important is who God is and that Jesus did what he did so that I could have a relationship with Him.

I've never actually said that before, but that's the way its been for quite a while now.

The result of my experience is that I believe that God calls who He will.  You guys know the scriptures.  And I do not believe that any man can undo what God has done.


----------



## Diogenes

Earl states: “This needs to be a 5 star sticky !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

Well, we’ve spoken of this problem before, earl, and here it is.  

So let us speak of all things only in terms of direct quotations from Lewis Carroll.  I say, that due to my unshakable belief in Lewis Carroll, my faction says that Alice didn’t actually fall through the Looking Glass, and I say that the author was actually a man named Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, and what he really meant was that the evil Red Queen was the Devil incarnate, and seduced Alice into unnatural relationships and forced her, through his evil and irresistible wiles, to fall into companionship with the Dark Side, especially that ever-smiling Cheshire Cat fella, who even the most chaste could never have a chance of resisting . . .


----------



## farmasis

centerpin fan said:


> This all strikes me as being too clever by half (and I know you didn't come up with this, so don't take it personally.) To me, OSAS is like Marxism: it sounds good in theory, but it completely breaks down in practice. When someone leaves the faith, OSAS forces you to say that the person was never truly saved, which no mortal man can honestly do. Just off the top of my head, I can think of two deeply committed Christians from my church who left the faith. One became a fervent atheist who would put Christopher Hitchens to shame. The other was actually a minister of the church. He renounced his faith and joined the Nation of Islam.


 
Were they saved? How can you know?

It is because man cannot judge a heart and can only make assumptions based on actions. God knows the truths, we only see fruits. We have to live by the assumption that God's word is true, so that is the only two possible explanations that I see there can be...


----------



## farmasis

hummerpoo said:


> I know I'm going to regret jumping in here. I have more experience than understanding on this issue.
> 
> 
> 
> I did, for 25 years.
> 
> I had no part in my being called to serve God, it was all Him. I was drawn away by the world, and it seems that I had to do with that, but I always wonder. He called me back, but that was a completely different experience.
> 
> I don't consider my salvation. The only reason I even care whether I'm saved or not is that I would sort of hate to miss out on eternity with the Lord, but if that's what He has in mind, that's o.k. What's important is who God is and that Jesus did what he did so that I could have a relationship with Him.
> 
> I've never actually said that before, but that's the way its been for quite a while now.
> 
> The result of my experience is that I believe that God calls who He will. You guys know the scriptures. And I do not believe that any man can undo what God has done.


 
Hummer---lots of good stuff in your post. The last being a very wise statement...IMO.


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> Were they saved? How can you know?



I can't know, just as you can't know they were not saved.




farmasis said:


> It is because man cannot judge a heart and can only make assumptions based on actions. God knows the truths, we only see fruits. We have to live by the assumption that God's word is true, so that is the only two possible explanations that I see there can be...



Based on the fruits I saw, they were definitely saved.  The minister in question had been a former gang member.  He had completely changed his life and was a very fruitful guy.  And he didn't return to his old ways.  He just renounced Christianity and chose Islam.


----------



## hawglips

farmasis said:


> I ... believe all you have to do is confess that Jesus is your Lord and Savior and believe in your heart he died for your sins and you are saved.



Then you believe you have to DO something to be saved. 

So, I am puzzled why folks who claim to be followers of Christ believe that ONLY the easiest thing He told us to do to gain eternal life is necessary; and that everything else He told us is necessary for us to do to gain eternal life -- is not.

Seems like it's a doctrine designed to justify sin.


----------



## hawglips

Randy said:


> Once you hear the Word and understand it's meaning and what happened, that is when you are a "believer" and you keep that rightousness.  If you never get to hear the word, you are still covered in His rightouness.  If you hear the word and do not believe it, you reject that rightousness just as you would cut off that arm you are born with if you did not believe it was necessary.



That seems like a great doctrine to justify sin.

I take Christ at His word that there are things we must do to gain eternal life, including endure to the end.


----------



## Jeff57

Ronnie T said:


> Jeff,
> Do you really believe the following words were used to discribe unbelievers??????????????
> 
> Hebrew 8:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
> 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
> 6and then have fallen away,
> 
> 
> I'm a nondenominational preacher.  Can you give me the name of a published theologian that I might be familiar with that holds your beliefs on this subject?



John MacArthur and John Owen


----------



## farmasis

hawglips said:


> Then you believe you have to DO something to be saved.


 
Yes, salvation by grace through faith.

You gotta have faith.


----------



## gtparts

hawglips said:


> That seems like a great doctrine to justify sin.
> 
> I take Christ at His word that there are things we must do to gain eternal life, including endure to the end.



Point is that any attempt to justify sin is evidence of being lost, not being saved. Justification of sin is not even a possibility for the redeemed of God. 

Besides that, enduring to the end is not something that we do, but what the Holy Spirit works in and through us. Those whom God saves, He preserves.


----------



## SneekEE

Ronnie T said:


> 1 Thessalonians 5:19Do not quench the Spirit;
> 
> 
> It appears that a Christian can put out the Spirit's fire if they are mindful of the things of God.



not only does it appear that a Christian can Quench the spirit, but it is a fact. As well as quenching Gods spirit, we can also greive Him. But that does not mean we lose our salvation.His Spirit guides us, sets us on fire. Sins in our life can quench that fire, can confine Gods spirit. When christians  do not allow the Spirit to be seen in our actions, or allow the Spirit to reveal Himself the way that He wants to, then He is greived, quenched, and confined. How ever, we are secure.

Follow my logic here, and see if you can understand why I can not believe our salvation can be lost.

I would asume if it were possible that quenching of the spirit meant loosing our salavation, then it would have to mean that it is sin that would cause us to lose our salavation.

If then sin could cause us to loose our salavation, then how many sins would it take, and who gets to decide?

If sin could cause you to loose your salavation you would then have to get resaved hundreds if not thousands of times a day.

How many times a day you all do fail to keep the following commandments?


Matt. 5:48 “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” 

1 Corinthians 10:31Whether therefore you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

 Colossians 3:17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

God has commanded us to be perfect, just as He is perfect, in every thought, in every deed, and in every word you speak. And each act you perform throughout the day, is to be preformed only in the name of Christ, and only for His glory, and thanking Him all the while.

Those 3 or 4 verses alone, are more than enough to cause every single one of us to loose our salvation many times a day(((( if ))))it were possible to loose our salavtion. As it said, thank the lord in all things, especialy for the fact that it is by His power alone, that we are saved, and forever shall be. If it was left up to our power to remain eternaly secure, then we all would be hammer down and he-ll bound. 


When most folks who believe you can loose your salvation speak of loosing there salavation, usualy what they are saying is this. If i died in this state, i am going to he-ll. And when they speak of beeing saved, what they are saying is this.If i died in this state I am going to heaven.

Well, going to heaven is part of beeing saved, but not the main part.When I say I am saved, heaven is not the first thing that comes into my mind. When I say, I am lost, going to he-ll is not the first thing that comes into my mind either.

When I say I am saved, i am saying this. God out of His own goodness and grace, has taken my old nature, and replaced it with a new nature, He has taken my desire to do nothing but the will of my flesh, and given me a new desire to do His will.He has made me a new creature, a child of His, part of His family.And i will be able to spend all eternity with Him.

When I said i was lost, I was saying this. I am a man who hates the things of God, and has no desire to do the will of God. My desire is to live on this earth and make myself as happy as possible.And the only rules I am going to follow are those that suit me.And if i die and find myself in  he-ll well most of my freinds will be there, it will be a party.

Now I am sure I have sinned hundreds if not thousands of times since i was saved.But before i was saved, there was no guilt over my sin, there was no desire to serve, or love God.After I was saved, all of that changed, and the new spirit in me began to fight with my old. And each time i fall short i am greived, deeply.

Not once how ever have i gone back to the old man, not once have i been able to sin, and feel no remorse, nor have i been able to live my life without consulting God on how He wants me to live it. If a man could loose his salvation for sinning, then I would certainly have lost it.yet i am convinced, sure, with no doubt,according to Gods Word, and assurence from His Spirit, that if I died today, I would see my Lord, and spend eternity with Him.

The bible says this about the lost person, his heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9) he is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20) and he does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12) he cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14)and he is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). 

Now Ronnie I more times than not tend to completly misunderstand what it is people are trying to say when I am on this computor. But unless I have once again missunderstood, it seems you believe that once a person has been changed from a lost state to a saved one, that person upon sinning can become lost again. I dont know if you claim to have ever lost your salvation, but if sin is what causes you to loose it,correct me if i am wrong,  then you would have had to had lost your salvation or you are without sin?So assuming you are not without sin, and at some point you lost your salvation, did you revert back to what the bible says a lost person is? Ronnie did you upon sinning, instantly become once more a slave to sin, with an evil heart, a sick heart, and did you no longer seek God, nor understand spiritual things, and did you upon sinning hate God again, was there enmity between you and Him once more, were you a child of wrath. Was there no part of your spirit that greived over your sins, no battle between the 2 natures? And since most people sin many times a day, then did you go though all the emotions that would accompany multiple salvations and the loosing of those salvations a day? That would have to be an emotional rollercoaster that would drive a man insane.Praise be to God by His power, through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and by the authority of His Holy Word, we can rest assured knowing that the day we enter in to His beloved family, the day we could  call Him Father,was the last day we would ever have to worry about the judgment of God and His wrath to come. He is our redeemer, He has redeemed us. I looked up the word redeemed and it said, To purchase back; to regain possession of by payment of a stipulated price; to repurchase.  He owns us, we are His, He purchased us at a price, we are His property and no one has the right to take us away from God , the only way we can be unowned is if He decides to throw us away, and He wont.God bless and Keep you!


----------



## SneekEE

farmasis said:


> Yes, salvation by grace through faith.
> 
> You gotta have faith.



You have faith, you believe. I assume there was a time when you did not believe. But at some point in your life you instantly went from not having faith to believeing. Why? or what happened to make you all of a sudden to decide to believe when for so long you didnt?


----------



## centerpin fan

SneekEE said:


> I would asume if it were possible that quenching of the spirit meant loosing our salavation, then it would have to mean that it is sin that would cause us to lose our salavation.



I don't think sin in and of itself causes us to lose our salvation.  Sin can harden your heart, though, to the point that you abandon God.

Also, I don't think people "lose" their salvation.  I think they forfeit it.


----------



## SneekEE

centerpin fan said:


> I don't think sin in and of itself causes us to lose our salvation.  Sin can harden your heart, though, to the point that you abandon God.
> 
> Also, I don't think people "lose" their salvation.  I think they forfeit it.



Well I have to admit, i do not understand that one at all, lol!. The word forfeit means Lost or alienated for an offense or crime; liable to penal seizure. To lose, or lose the right to, by some error, fault, offense, or crime..

So, let me run this through my logictanator.... I loose or forfeit my salvation when I commit an error,fault of my own. That error I guess would be sin??

Or, God removes my salvation because I commit an error,fault of my own. So I am penilized, or, salvation revoked. Now in order for this to be true, i would need to find a verse that said when God saves a person, He could if that person does not keep there part of the deal, be penilised, or, have salvation revoked.

Only problem i see with that as of now would be God has promised that all He draws and saves He will also keep, not lose one, and He would raise them up at the last day.That through and by His power alone He would keep that person. 

Do we all agree that salvation is a gift from God?

Rom. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


My logic tells me, that salvation can not be forfited, by God, cause salvation is a gift of God, and Gods gifts are without repentance. That is, He dont take um back.

So, nope, nadda, salvation can not be forfeited, at least not by God. And I dont see how we can seize our own salvation, as in penilise ourselves by taking it away from ourselves. So, the forfeit idea, me thinks, is forfeited.


----------



## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> I don't think sin in and of itself causes us to lose our salvation.  Sin can harden your heart, though, to the point that you abandon God.
> 
> Also, I don't think people "lose" their salvation.  I think they forfeit it.



If sin could cause one to lose salvation we'd all be in lots of trouble.


----------



## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> I don't think sin in and of itself causes us to lose our salvation.  Sin can harden your heart, though, to the point that you abandon God.
> 
> Also, I don't think people "lose" their salvation.  I think they forfeit it.



That's also what I believe the Bible teaches.


----------



## SneekEE

centerpin fan said:


> In many cases, I'm sure you're correct.  However, no mortal man can say that is true in all instances.



Sorry centerpin, i didnt see your comment above, was ignoring it. And you are right, no mortal man can say that is true, not only in all but any instance. I was saying that is what the bible teaches. And God is the heart knower, so he would know.


----------



## SneekEE

Ronnie T said:


> That's also what I believe the Bible teaches.



Ok Ronnie, I suspected i misunderstood ya earlier. So, what can cause us to loose salvation?


----------



## farmasis

_Matthew 12:31-32 "And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."_


----------



## farmasis

Originally Posted by *farmasis* 

 
_Kinda two part answer....

first, you never would if you truly did, because like the verse said..once you tasted the heavenly gifts, you wouldn't give them back--so it goes back to the never was truly saved answer (they did not remain with us, because they were not part of us)

second, if truly saved, the Holy Spirit who keeps you from falling would prevent that, possibly by shortening your life before you could._



Ronnie T said:


> No fair making stuff up. I kinda hold myself to the scriptural aspect of it all.


 
Missed this one...Ronnie you should know me better than that...

  <SUP id=en-NASB-16684 class=versenum>*27*</SUP>The fear of the LORD prolongs life,
         But the years of the wicked will be shortened. (Prov. 10)

 <SUP id=en-NASB-16708 class=versenum>*19*</SUP>He who is steadfast in righteousness will attain to life,
         And he who pursues evil will bring about his own death. (Prov. 11)

   <SUP id=en-NASB-14756 class=versenum>*23*</SUP>But You, O God, will bring them down to the pit of destruction;
         Men of bloodshed and deceit will not live out half their days 
         But I will trust in You. (Ps. 55)


----------



## ronpasley

unbelievable trying to prove who is right and who is wrong.


----------



## Ronnie T

Hebrews 3: 

12 Beware, brethren(Christians), lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;  13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.  14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,  15 while it is said: 

“Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” 

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? 
Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?  
17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? 
Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?  18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?  19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. 

4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.


----------



## ronpasley

Ronnie T said:


> Hebrews 3:
> 
> 12 Beware, brethren(Christians), lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;  13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.  14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,  15 while it is said:
> 
> “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
> 
> 16 For who, having heard, rebelled?
> Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
> 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years?
> Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?  18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?  19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
> 
> 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.



good scriptures Ronnie, I agree with you brother some people better wake up and smell there bible If you know what I mean.


----------



## SneekEE

ronpasley said:


> good scriptures Ronnie, I agree with you brother some people better wake up and smell there bible If you know what I mean.



Snoopy used to lick his books to see what was good, yall might be smelling, but some need to start reading lol. And i dont see what is hapening here as folks trying to prove who is right, so much as iron sharpening iron. But if it is making folks upset, I will leave yall alone to lose and gain your salvation over and over, and hope that when you pass you will have been in the salvation stage and not the lost stage. lol Although I am absoloutly positive that if God ever saved yall even once, then to your surprise you will be in heaven when you die.Then you can tell the Lord how mistaken He is for thinking yall was saved, and you will proly have to remind Him of all them sins that caused you to loose your salvation, cause he wont remember them anyway, seeing how they are removed as far as the west is from the east.


----------



## Ronnie T

How bout this verse Sneekee......

1Tim 4:1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons

*Did you hear that. 
 "Some" will fall away from the faith.


----------



## ronpasley

SneekEE said:


> Snoopy used to lick his books to see what was good, yall might be smelling, but some need to start reading lol. And i dont see what is hapening here as folks trying to prove who is right, so much as iron sharpening iron. But if it is making folks upset, I will leave yall alone to lose and gain your salvation over and over, and hope that when you pass you will have been in the salvation stage and not the lost stage. lol Although I am absoloutly positive that if God ever saved yall even once, then to your surprise you will be in heaven when you die.Then you can tell the Lord how mistaken He is for thinking yall was saved, and you will proly have to remind Him of all them sins that caused you to loose your salvation, cause he wont remember them anyway, seeing how they are removed as far as the west is from the east.



No lol here this is serious buisness people are going to die and go to he!! because they were lead to believe a lie, my God have mercy on all of are souls.


----------



## SneekEE

Ronnie T said:


> How bout this verse Sneekee......
> 
> 1Tim 4:1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons
> 
> *Did you hear that.
> "Some" will fall away from the faith.



Oooh, you should add Amos 8:11-12 to that, good stuff. Got to sleep will address that tommorrow.Short bus version, I must have witnessed to 14 people today who all said they loved the lord and were heaven bound.Invited them to revival, by the way, you would not believe what has happened, GOD HAS MOVED!!!! in our church.Anyway, all of these men that i spoke too today were quick to tell me they were heaven bound, and loved the lord.Of course, none would come to church, none has ever confessed in public there faith, all said jesus was first in there life, yet they couldnt find the time to worship because 6 of them had ball practice, 4 were working on there race car. 2 said they would be to tired when they got off work, bless there soul. 1 was going to buy a new x-box and wouldnt make it, and the other had to see a man about a mule. But each one of them were quick to tell me they were in the faith. When persecution, hard times, ect come, you will see who is and who is not in the faith.Those who fall away, are false converts. Those who do not fall away from the faith, are kept by the power of God, and can never loose there salvation. Faith can be weakened, and many will turn to preaching that makes them comfortable, but those whom God has saved, have nothing to worry about.We have been justified, and act of the judge, He has declared it 

Ronnie, I may have missed you answer, dont know, but I asked, how many times have you lost your salvation or fallen from the faith?


----------



## centerpin fan

SneekEE said:


> them sins that caused you to loose your salvation,



I don't believe that, and Ronnie denied it in post #163.


----------



## SneekEE

ronpasley said:


> No lol here this is serious buisness people are going to die and go to he!! because they were lead to believe a lie, my God have mercy on all of are souls.



Wrong again, people go to he-ll because they deserve it, it is the rightous jusdgment of God to allow a God hating man to recieve the justice he deserves.Should God open the gates of he-ll at this very moment and say yall can come out if you would just love me, they all would slam the door shut in His face. No man goes to he-ll for any reason other than the fact that God has judged them to go there.Every man is given the word of God, and God will not deny any man the opertunity to know the truth should that man seek it with his whole heart. Telling a person they are saved is what people should have a problem with.When a man is born of the Spirit of God, you do not have to tell him he is saved, he will tell you. the bible says a man can know that he has eternial life. I know it and all the false doctrine in the world could not convince me i am or am not saved.The day the lord saved me, he sealed me, and I knew it. Didnt need a preacher to tell me, cause HE saved me.Instantly i became extremly aware of the difference between beeing saved and lost. No sir there is no way a man who is truyly lost, could experince the gift of salvation, and not feel the difference. It was life!! I passed from death to life, not somthing  you get over, or forget.And should i lose my salvation i would think it would be equally as tramatic, only a dreadfull event. Why i suppose as much as I felt myself come alive that day i would also feel my self die. And since that day I can assure I have not, nor will i ever taste death again. This here is called eternial, everlasting life. Not little lasting life, not part time life, but eternial everlasting breath of life, given to me by my father in heaven. By its very name it is eternial, non ending, amen? And it is granted to every born again believer, they have it now, present tense, praise God, and thank you Jesus!

john 3:36 He that believes on the Son has everlasting life..

There it is beloved, if you truly believe and are born from above you can have everlasting life too,not temporary based on your works kind of life, but life that does not end. god bless and keep you all!


----------



## SneekEE

centerpin fan said:


> I don't believe that, and Ronnie denied it in post #163.



Sorry centerpin, i thinku did say sins can  not cause you to loose your salvation. i think u said we can forfeit it though. I just dont see what would cause our salvation to be forfeited if not sin. Please explain? i mean eve if we wake up one morning after beeing saved and we just decide we hate god, want nothing more to do with Him, it is still sin?


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## Greenhorn

If my sins can cause me to loose my salvation after I was saved then Jesus was never able to save me in the first place.


----------



## ronpasley

SneekEE said:


> Wrong again, people go to he-ll because they deserve it, it is the rightous jusdgment of God to allow a God hating man to recieve the justice he deserves.Should God open the gates of he-ll at this very moment and say yall can come out if you would just love me, they all would slam the door shut in His face. No man goes to he-ll for any reason other than the fact that God has judged them to go there.Every man is given the word of God, and God will not deny any man the opertunity to know the truth should that man seek it with his whole heart. Telling a person they are saved is what people should have a problem with.When a man is born of the Spirit of God, you do not have to tell him he is saved, he will tell you. the bible says a man can know that he has eternial life. I know it and all the false doctrine in the world could not convince me i am or am not saved.The day the lord saved me, he sealed me, and I knew it. Didnt need a preacher to tell me, cause HE saved me.Instantly i became extremly aware of the difference between beeing saved and lost. No sir there is no way a man who is truyly lost, could experince the gift of salvation, and not feel the difference. It was life!! I passed from death to life, not somthing  you get over, or forget.And should i lose my salvation i would think it would be equally as tramatic, only a dreadfull event. Why i suppose as much as I felt myself come alive that day i would also feel my self die. And since that day I can assure I have not, nor will i ever taste death again. This here is called eternial, everlasting life. Not little lasting life, not part time life, but eternial everlasting breath of life, given to me by my father in heaven. By its very name it is eternial, non ending, amen? And it is granted to every born again believer, they have it now, present tense, praise God, and thank you Jesus!
> 
> john 3:36 He that believes on the Son has everlasting life..
> 
> There it is beloved, if you truly believe and are born from above you can have everlasting life too,not temporary based on your works kind of life, but life that does not end. god bless and keep you all!



Amen Brother sounds good to me now let us be and light unto the world and be a witness for are Lord and Savior for His glory and praise.

Your Brother in Christ
Ron


----------



## Ronnie T

SneekEE said:


> Oooh, you should add Amos 8:11-12 to that, good stuff. Got to sleep will address that tommorrow.Short bus version, I must have witnessed to 14 people today who all said they loved the lord and were heaven bound.Invited them to revival, by the way, you would not believe what has happened, GOD HAS MOVED!!!! in our church.Anyway, all of these men that i spoke too today were quick to tell me they were heaven bound, and loved the lord.Of course, none would come to church, none has ever confessed in public there faith, all said jesus was first in there life, yet they couldnt find the time to worship because 6 of them had ball practice, 4 were working on there race car. 2 said they would be to tired when they got off work, bless there soul. 1 was going to buy a new x-box and wouldnt make it, and the other had to see a man about a mule. But each one of them were quick to tell me they were in the faith. When persecution, hard times, ect come, you will see who is and who is not in the faith.Those who fall away, are false converts. Those who do not fall away from the faith, are kept by the power of God, and can never loose there salvation. Faith can be weakened, and many will turn to preaching that makes them comfortable, but those whom God has saved, have nothing to worry about.We have been justified, and act of the judge, He has declared it
> 
> Ronnie, I may have missed you answer, dont know, but I asked, how many times have you lost your salvation or fallen from the faith?



It's obvious to me that you have a lot of confidence in your beliefs in regard to this.  You have listened well and have studied.  It's an important part of your salvation and it's an important part of your teaching.
But here's the problem.  There is biblical proof that what you believe to be true simply is not.  I have posted several scriptures that speak of brethren; and people of the faith, falling from faith.
When God's holy scriptures say that a "person can fall away from the faith", it is very obviously speaking of a person who has been walking in the light of Jesus but now that have "left" that light.
They have turned from the faith that they once had.

Now you can ignore those scriptures all you want.  You can type paragraph after paragraph of comments concerning you confidence in your beliefs.  But if you have to ignore or rewrite scripture in order to keep your belief, there's something wrong with your belief.

The falling away isn't about sin.....
It's about not caring if you sin.
It's about believing, trusting, then falling away.
The scripture speaks of it.
It can happen.
God doesn't want a robot as a child.
God doesn't want a brain-dead zombie as a disciple.
God wants people's hearts and their minds.

Now here's the latest scripture once again.
1Tim 4:1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons

Now, I know what it means to 'fall away' so you don't need to explain it to me.  And I also know what Paul meant when he said "the faith".

And concerning you inviting those good ol Christians that were tooooooo busy to go to church...... Well, don't you know there are some people that have a special arrangement with God.  It's called the "Gospel According to Them".


----------



## Ronnie T

And no, Amos 8:11-12 doesn't fit in this conversation.


----------



## farmasis

To lose your salvation, you must be stronger than God.

Here are the steps...

1) You will have to stop what God is doing in you.

<SUP id=en-NASB-29368 class=versenum>*6*</SUP>For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. (Phil. 1)


 <SUP id=en-NASB-28146 class=versenum>*29*</SUP>For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;  <SUP id=en-NASB-28147 class=versenum>*30*</SUP>and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8)

2) Break his permanent seal. 

 <SUP id=en-NASB-29220 class=versenum>*13*</SUP>In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,  <SUP id=en-NASB-29221 class=versenum>*14*</SUP>who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, (Eph. 1)

<SUP id=en-NASB-29303 class=versenum>*30 *</SUP>Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were <SUP class=xref value='(B)'>(</SUP>sealed for the day of redemption. (Eph. 4)

3) Throw out the Holy Spirit that will never leave

 <SUP id=en-NASB-26685 class=versenum>*16*</SUP>"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever (John 14)

4) Unbirth your permanent birth.

*<SUP>23</SUP>*for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God. 


<SUP id=en-NASB-30378 class=versenum>*3*</SUP>Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 
 <SUP id=en-NASB-30379 class=versenum>*4*</SUP>to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,  <SUP id=en-NASB-30380 class=versenum>*5*</SUP>who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1)

5) Have your will take precedence over God's will


 <SUP id=en-NASB-26057 class=versenum>*12*</SUP>But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,  <SUP id=en-NASB-26058 class=versenum>*13*</SUP>who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1)

6) Return to the former person you were that is gone.

<SUP id=en-NASB-28895 class=versenum>*17*</SUP>Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. (2 Cor. 5)

7) Pull yourself out of God's hand


 <SUP id=en-NASB-26510 class=versenum>*28*</SUP>and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.  <SUP id=en-NASB-26511 class=versenum>*29*</SUP>"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. (John 10)

8) Give back salvation that is impossible to give back.

*<SUP>29</SUP>* For the gifts and the calling of God _are_ irrevocable. (Romans 11)

9) Seperate yourself from God's inseperable love.

*<SUP>38</SUP>* For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, <SUP id=en-NKJV-28152 class=versenum>*39*</SUP> nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8)

10) Make what God made eternal, temporary.

that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life....*<SUP>36</SUP>*"He who believes in the Son has eternal life (John 3)

 <SUP id=en-NASB-26298 class=versenum>*40*</SUP>"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will <SUP class=xref value='(C)'>(</SUP>raise him up on the last day." (John 6)


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> To lose your salvation, you must be stronger than God.
> 
> Here are the steps...
> 
> 1) You will have to stop what God is doing in you.
> 
> <SUP id=en-NASB-29368 class=versenum>*6*</SUP>For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. (Phil. 1)
> 
> 
> <SUP id=en-NASB-28146 class=versenum>*29*</SUP>For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;  <SUP id=en-NASB-28147 class=versenum>*30*</SUP>and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8)
> 
> 2) Break his permanent seal.
> 
> <SUP id=en-NASB-29220 class=versenum>*13*</SUP>In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,  <SUP id=en-NASB-29221 class=versenum>*14*</SUP>who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, (Eph. 1)
> 
> <SUP id=en-NASB-29303 class=versenum>*30 *</SUP>Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were <SUP class=xref value='(B)'>(</SUP>sealed for the day of redemption. (Eph. 4)
> 
> 3) Throw out the Holy Spirit that will never leave
> 
> <SUP id=en-NASB-26685 class=versenum>*16*</SUP>"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever (John 14)
> 
> 4) Unbirth your permanent birth.
> 
> *<SUP>23</SUP>*for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
> 
> 
> <SUP id=en-NASB-30378 class=versenum>*3*</SUP>Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
> <SUP id=en-NASB-30379 class=versenum>*4*</SUP>to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,  <SUP id=en-NASB-30380 class=versenum>*5*</SUP>who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1)
> 
> 5) Have your will take precedence over God's will
> 
> 
> <SUP id=en-NASB-26057 class=versenum>*12*</SUP>But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,  <SUP id=en-NASB-26058 class=versenum>*13*</SUP>who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1)
> 
> 6) Return to the former person you were that is gone.
> 
> <SUP id=en-NASB-28895 class=versenum>*17*</SUP>Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. (2 Cor. 5)
> 
> 7) Pull yourself out of God's hand
> 
> 
> <SUP id=en-NASB-26510 class=versenum>*28*</SUP>and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.  <SUP id=en-NASB-26511 class=versenum>*29*</SUP>"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. (John 10)
> 
> 8) Give back salvation that is impossible to give back.
> 
> *<SUP>29</SUP>* For the gifts and the calling of God _are_ irrevocable. (Romans 11)
> 
> 9) Seperate yourself from God's inseperable love.
> 
> *<SUP>38</SUP>* For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, <SUP id=en-NKJV-28152 class=versenum>*39*</SUP> nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8)
> 
> 10) Make what God made eternal, temporary.
> 
> that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life....*<SUP>36</SUP>*"He who believes in the Son has eternal life (John 3)
> 
> <SUP id=en-NASB-26298 class=versenum>*40*</SUP>"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will <SUP class=xref value='(C)'>(</SUP>raise him up on the last day." (John 6)




1Tim 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons


----------



## farmasis

> Now you can ignore those scriptures all you want. You can type paragraph after paragraph of comments concerning you confidence in your beliefs. But if you have to ignore or rewrite scripture in order to keep your belief, there's something wrong with your belief.


 
Ronnie, you have to ignore a mountain of verses to believe what you think a few troubling verses tell you.



> Now here's the latest scripture once again.
> 1Tim 4:1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons
> 
> Now, I know what it means to 'fall away' so you don't need to explain it to me.


 
*<SUP>19</SUP>* They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but _they went out_ that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.(1 John 2) 




> It's called the "Gospel According to Them".


 
*<SUP>25</SUP>* And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life. 
<SUP id=en-NKJV-30573 class=versenum>*26*</SUP> These things I have written to you concerning those who _try to_ deceive you. (1 John 2)


----------



## farmasis

Ronnie T said:


> 1Tim 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons


 
<SUP>29</SUP> For the gifts and the calling of God _are_ irrevocable. (Romans 11)

*<SUP>8</SUP>*For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God (Eph 2)

ir·revo·cable (i rev*â€²*É™ kÉ™ bÉ™l)
adjective
that cannot be revoked, recalled, or undone; unalterable; final.


----------



## gtparts

Ronnie T said:


> 1Tim 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons





farmasis said:


> <sup>29</sup> For the gifts and the calling of God _are_ irrevocable. (Romans 11)
> 
> *<sup>8</sup>*For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God (Eph 2)
> 
> ir·revo·cable (i rev*â€²*É™ kÉ™ bÉ™l)
> adjective
> that cannot be revoked, recalled, or undone; unalterable; final.




The question is, "Who are the 'some' that Paul mentions to Timothy?".

In light of other Scripture, it could only be those who have shown interest in following Christ as disciples, but have never given themselves to Christ. Many have started out in curiosity over the centuries, but could not or would not turn their back on the pull of the world. God's Word tells us we cannot serve two masters. When we try to 'walk the fence', we eventually must choose one side or the other. I believe the 'some' are fence walkers who choose the life that the world offers.


----------



## Jeffriesw

This is a cut and paste, but it sort of summarizes what I believe.


Perseverance of the Saints: 
     You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.


----------



## gtparts

One of the biggest problems with many contributors to this forum is that they have, by way of instruction and/or personal study, made up their minds about some doctrinal issue and not proceeded to investigate all sides of the issue. 

Simply put, there are not multiple sides. We have inadequate understanding or we are deceived. 

If one approaches Scripture from the position of it being the inerrant Word of God, whether in part or in whole, it must be true! Therefore, if we 'see' a conflict in Scripture, the problem must be in us, not the Word.

It has been brought up on many threads that Scripture interprets Scripture. It is an easy way of saying that all Scripture has harmony with Scripture and can be understood as God intends. 

So, why is it that many are not seeking to understand how there is agreement? One reads a passage and decides he will live or die on that hill. Another reads a different passage and he decides he will live or die on that hill. The silly thing is they are standing on the same hill, each holding a different perspective.

Reminds me of the blind men who encountered the elephant, each touching a different part of the beast and each forming an opinion based on their individual experience. Each was correct in his description, based on what each knew, but all were wrong in that each description was incomplete, because none had explored the totality of the elephant.

When you make the effort to understand all Scripture as harmonious, praying for knowledge and wisdom to see what God has spoken, a lot, if not all, of this bickering would cease.


----------



## gtparts

Swamp Runner said:


> This is a cut and paste, but it sort of summarizes what I believe.
> 
> 
> Perseverance of the Saints:
> You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.



When we come to Christ in repentance and submission, all our sins are forgive, past, present, and FUTURE. If we repent and pray for forgiveness in the future (which we should), it is only to remind us of what we have already received.

*John 10:27-29 (King James Version)*


 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26509">27</sup>My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26510">28</sup>And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26511">29</sup>My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


It needs to be noted here that if all sheep are His, then all sheep have eternal life. The sentence is NOT conditional. It does not say "if".
Therefore, all sheep are not His sheep except and unless they hear His voice, He knows them, and they follow Him. There is clear historical evidence that all sheep are not His sheep, otherwise, why would He give a warning and speak of falling away. After describing His sheep, Christ states exactly what He commits to do for His sheep and the fact that they are eternally His.


----------



## Jeffriesw

gtparts said:


> When we come to Christ in repentance and submission, all our sins are forgive, past, present, and FUTURE. If we repent and pray for forgiveness in the future (which we should), it is only to remind us of what we have already received.
> 
> *John 10:27-29 (King James Version)*
> 
> 
> <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26509">27</sup>My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
> <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26510">28</sup>And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
> <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26511">29</sup>My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
> 
> 
> It needs to be noted here that if all sheep are His, then all sheep have eternal life. The sentence is NOT conditional. It does not say "if".
> Therefore, all sheep are not His sheep except and unless they hear His voice, He knows them, and they follow Him. There is clear historical evidence that all sheep are not His sheep, otherwise, why would He give a warning and speak of falling away. After describing His sheep, Christ states exactly what He commits to do for His sheep and the fact that they are eternally His.




I believe we are in agreement here GT, What I posted above was in reference to His Sheep.

Jesus makes it real clear that only those who are truly his sheep will hear His voice and follow.

He did not say you are not my sheep, because YOU don't follow.
(This would make our salvation and the continuance of it depended on us and our actions (Works))

He said you don't hear His voice and follow because you ARE NOT his sheep.
(This put's our Salvation or lack thereof and the continuance of it sqaurely back in His court were it belongs)



John 10 (KJV)
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> you have to ignore a mountain of verses to believe what you think a few troubling verses tell you.



I just have to ignore Calvinism.


----------



## centerpin fan

gtparts said:


> if we 'see' a conflict in Scripture, the problem must be in us, not the Word.



Agree with you here.




gtparts said:


> When you make the effort to understand all Scripture as harmonious, praying for knowledge and wisdom to see what God has spoken, a lot, if not all, of this bickering would cease.



... but not here.

From what I've seen, the members involved in these discussions do "make the effort to understand all Scripture as harmonious, praying for knowledge and wisdom to see what God has spoken", but the bickering remains.  That's consistent with what we see in church history, certainly the last 500 years of it.


----------



## centerpin fan

SneekEE said:


> I just dont see what would cause our salvation to be forfeited if not sin. Please explain?



A decision.

I think Billy Graham uses the phrase "make a decision for Christ".  I'm pretty sure we used that in Campus Crusade, as well.  If we can decide to follow Christ, we can decide to stop following Him.


----------



## Ronnie T

A few posts upward, someone stated that we don't even have to repent of our sins anymore once we've been saved.

I'm amazed!!


----------



## gtparts

Ronnie T said:


> A few posts upward, someone stated that we don't even have to repent of our sins anymore once we've been saved.
> 
> I'm amazed!!



For clarification, I may have failed to convey that once we have been saved, we have forgiveness from God of all sin. 

Confession and repentance on our part are still desired by God to remind us often of what Christ has done for us and to guide us in sanctification. We don't need forgiveness a second time for something He has already forgiven and forgotten.


----------



## hawglips

Greenhorn said:


> If my sins can cause me to loose my salvation after I was saved then Jesus was never able to save me in the first place.



Either that, or you chose to ignore most of the things Jesus said were necessary for salvation.


----------



## hawglips

farmasis said:


> Yes, salvation by grace through faith.
> 
> You gotta have faith.



So we have to DO something to get saved?

If that is the case, why do so many believe in doing one thing, but not the other things that Jesus said we must do for eternal life?

Why do folks just pick and choose?


----------



## Ronnie T

gtparts said:


> For clarification, I may have failed to convey that once we have been saved, we have forgiveness from God of all sin.
> 
> Confession and repentance on our part are still desired by God to remind us often of what Christ has done for us and to guide us in sanctification. We don't need forgiveness a second time for something He has already forgiven and forgotten.



I think I know what the difference is for us people who stand atop two hills wondering about each other.

On one hilltop are Christians who read God's word and take it all to heart.  As they go from one verse and one teaching point they make it all important, and they see it all as God's Word and God's commands.  They understand God's mercy and grace and are thankful it's been applied to their lives but they don't see it as the end of their search for a relationship with their Lord.  
They understand John 3:16.  But they put it in perspective with the rest of God's word.

On the other hilltop are Christians who read about God's mercy and grace that allowed Gentiles to become His children.  And, as Paul warned the Romans, they become so overpowered by God's grace they believe nothing else matters to God.  They believe God grace has given them licenses to minimize or disregard everything else God expects.
You say that a person who has been saved by God doesn't actually have to ever repent because God is bound by His promise..... And you are WRONG.
A Christian is compelled to repent.  Over and over and over during their lives.
Read the letters Christ wrote to the churches in Asia in Rev 1-3.  Repentance.  Repentance.

God has never made a one-sided promise.  There have always been expectations and demands tied to God's promises.
God promised Israel a promised land.  God feed and clothed them and got them there all the while telling them He would lead them into the promised land.......... But He did not.  God caused them all to die a miserable death, never entering that land that God promised them.

The Gospel is not a legal document for us to rip apart to see where the fence is.  God will not accept lukewarm love just because His Son died.

God expects discipleship..... no, God demands discipleship.

This stuff about never having to repent or ask for forgiveness is a bunch of hogwash.  It's about turning from the gospel that was first preached.  It's about turning the gospel into an excuse to sin.
This need to turn God into a little puppy dog is going to affect a lot of people's eternity.


----------



## gtparts

Ronnie T said:


> I think I know what the difference is for us people who stand atop two hills wondering about each other.
> 
> On one hilltop are Christians who read God's word and take it all to heart.  As they go from one verse and one teaching point they make it all important, and they see it all as God's Word and God's commands.  They understand God's mercy and grace and are thankful it's been applied to their lives but they don't see it as the end of their search for a relationship with their Lord.
> They understand John 3:16.  But they put it in perspective with the rest of God's word.
> 
> On the other hilltop are Christians who read about God's mercy and grace that allowed Gentiles to become His children.  And, as Paul warned the Romans, they become so overpowered by God's grace they believe nothing else matters to God.  They believe God grace has given them licenses to minimize or disregard everything else God expects.
> You say that a person who has been saved by God doesn't actually have to ever repent because God is bound by His promise..... And you are WRONG.
> A Christian is compelled to repent.  Over and over and over during their lives.
> Read the letters Christ wrote to the churches in Asia in Rev 1-3.  Repentance.  Repentance.
> 
> God has never made a one-sided promise.  There have always been expectations and demands tied to God's promises.
> God promised Israel a promised land.  God feed and clothed them and got them there all the while telling them He would lead them into the promised land.......... But He did not.  God caused them all to die a miserable death, never entering that land that God promised them.
> 
> The Gospel is not a legal document for us to rip apart to see where the fence is.  God will not accept lukewarm love just because His Son died.
> 
> God expects discipleship..... no, God demands discipleship.
> 
> This stuff about never having to repent or ask for forgiveness is a bunch of hogwash.  It's about turning from the gospel that was first preached.  It's about turning the gospel into an excuse to sin.
> This need to turn God into a little puppy dog is going to affect a lot of people's eternity.



Brother, you are reading way too much into my posting. As you choose to use the two hill metaphor, let me say I am on the first hill.

"On one hilltop are Christians who read God's word and take it all to  heart.  As they go from one verse and one teaching point they make it  all important, and they see it all as God's Word and God's commands.   They understand God's mercy and grace and are thankful it's been applied  to their lives but they don't see it as the end of their search for a  relationship with their Lord.  
They understand John 3:16.  But they put it in perspective with the rest of God's word."

Paul is clear and I agree, the grace we receive is not a license to sin and sin cannot be justified by assuming that grace is increased by participating in sin. But just because one has been saved and counted among the righteous, and his or her sins (all of them) have been forgiven doesn't mean that they give anything but full devotion to Christ. Why would you assume, that having been forgiven, that I or anyone else would necessarily see an opportunity to continue in sin? Perhaps some do, but they can not possibly understand such a position from Scripture. And I assure you, I have never taught such and never will. 

John 8 has a beautiful.... and, for some, a frightening message. 

 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26412">30</sup>As he spake these words, many believed on him. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26413">31</sup>Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26414">32</sup>And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26415">33</sup>They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26416">34</sup>Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26417">35</sup>And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26418">36</sup>If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 



I teach the joy of God's salvation through Jesus Christ, the freedom of those whom Jesus calls "my disciples indeed". I am also compelled to teach verse 34 with equal emphasis. I take the responsibility of a teacher seriously. Paul tells us the standard by which preachers and teachers are measured is more demanding and so it is! The writer of Hebrews gives us a visual lesson on accountability,.... a good one to commit to memory.


<sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-29985">Hebrews 4: 11-13</sup>
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-29985">
</sup>
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-29985">11</sup> So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall.
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-29986">12</sup>  For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the  sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint  and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-29987">13</sup>  Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and  exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.


----------



## Ronnie T

gtparts said:


> I teach the joy of God's salvation through Jesus Christ, the freedom of those whom Jesus calls "my disciples indeed". I am also compelled to teach verse 34 with equal emphasis. I take the responsibility of a teacher seriously. Paul tells us the standard by which preachers and teachers are measured is more demanding and so it is! The writer of Hebrews gives us a visual lesson on accountability,.... a good one to commit to memory. .




If you do, and I believe you do, I would suggest you never again say or publish that a Christian doesn't have to repent or pray for forgiveness during their life of living as disciples.
Because it's an impossibility to do the one without doing the others.


----------



## farmasis

Correct me if I am wrong GT....I think you are saying you do not have to repent for salvation. Salvation was finished at the acceptance of salvation. 
Now, I believe punishment for all sin and that God expects us to repent and that a life without repentance would not bear the fruits a saved life should bear...so one might question that, but as for a requirement of salvation..I think GT is right.


----------



## farmasis

hawglips said:


> So we have to DO something to get saved?
> 
> If that is the case, why do so many believe in doing one thing, but not the other things that Jesus said we must do for eternal life?
> 
> Why do folks just pick and choose?


 

Example?


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> ....I think you are saying you do not have to repent for salvation. Salvation was finished at the acceptance of salvation.... but as for a requirement of salvation..I think GT is right.



Are you serious?  You don't think repentance is necessary for salvation?  Or am I completely misunderstanding this?


----------



## farmasis

centerpin fan said:


> Are you serious? You don't think repentance is necessary for salvation? Or am I completely misunderstanding this?


 
No, repentance is part of the process. I am talking after it. IOW, if I am saved...tell a lie and die before I ask forgiveness for that, I will not lose my salvation. I will give an account for it, and may suffer some type of punishment, but it does not void my salvation.


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> Correct me if I am wrong GT....I think you are saying you do not have to repent for salvation. Salvation was finished at the acceptance of salvation.
> Now, I believe punishment for all sin and that God expects us to repent and that a life without repentance would not bear the fruits a saved life should bear...so one might question that, but as for a requirement of salvation..I think GT is right.



Then you are incorrect also, and I'll show you in just a moment.


.


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> No, repentance is part of the process. I am talking after it. IOW, if I am saved...tell a lie and die before I ask forgiveness for that, I will not lose my salvation. I will give an account for it, and may suffer some type of punishment, but it does not void my salvation.



If you are a Christian and aren't continually repenting you will never experience that rebirth that the Holy Spirit is there guiding and leading you to.


----------



## Ronnie T

2 Corinthians 7:9-11 (New International Version)
9yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Acts 26:20
but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.


----------



## Israel

Why deal in hypotheticals?
Is God not able to know the end from the beginning?
We act as thought our "What ifs?" are not already considered.
Maybe the OSAS adherent needs to be reminded of the poor steward who hid his talent (the gifts and callings of God are without repentance) in the Earth and accused the Lord of being a hard man?
Maybe the man who is afraid of losing his salvation may need to be reminded of the Lord who has said "I will never leave you nor forsake you"?
Perhaps a good dose of fearing not pleasing the Lord is healthily balanced with a good measure of eternal mercy toward the one who is broken hearted at falling short? 
Meat in due season.
Till we no longer cling to verses, nor writings, nor words...but only to a person?
The Lord.
Himself?


----------



## Ronnie T

Scripture addressed to folks who were already Christians.

Repentance is part of being a servant child of God.
To suggest that a person forego that part of discipleship is, IMO irresponsible.

2 Corinthians 7:9
I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.

2 Corinthians 12:21
I am afraid that when I come again my God may humiliate me before you, and I may mourn over many of those who have sinned in the past and not repented of the impurity, immorality and sensuality which they have practiced.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Revelation 2:5
'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.

Revelation 2:16
'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

Revelation 2:22
'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.

Revelation 3:19
' Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.


----------



## Ronnie T

Israel said:


> Why deal in hypotheticals?
> Is God not able to know the end from the beginning?
> We act as thought our "What ifs?" are not already considered.
> Maybe the OSAS adherent needs to be reminded of the poor steward who hid his talent (the gifts and callings of God are without repentance) in the Earth and accused the Lord of being a hard man?
> Maybe the man who is afraid of losing his salvation may need to be reminded of the Lord who has said "I will never leave you nor forsake you"?
> Perhaps a good dose of fearing not pleasing the Lord is healthily balanced with a good measure of eternal mercy toward the one who is broken hearted at falling short?
> Meat in due season.
> Till we no longer cling to verses, nor writings, nor words...but only to a person?
> The Lord.
> Himself?



Amen.
The answer is discipleship!!!!

The disciple is one who doesn't attempt to work his way into heaven.  He's following His Lord, trying to learn all of Him and His ways.

The disciple is one who doesn't scan the scriptures to see what doesn't have to be done or complied with.  He's the one who wants to do it all.  He doesn't want to leave anything out.  He wants it all.  He wants to feel it all.

And what do we do?We squabble over whether a person can not repent and get by.  God forgive us.


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## apoint

This is the first time I have read this sub forum and I am impressed with what is written here.
 The bible does not conterdict it's self but people can missunderstand it. You have to be born again of the spirit to enter the kingdom. Jesus never preached religion, just his kingdom. So there are no denominations in the bible, just his kingdom.


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## Ronnie T

Honest words from a first time poster.
Welcome.

It might not look like it sometimes but I think we all love each other.


----------



## Diogenes

Factional squabbles win the day – Cool.

So  the ‘Automatic Salvation’ or lack of same, is not a rational, independent thought, but is only derived from bible verses, as opposed to, say, some other sort of actual evidence that either supports or refutes such a notion?

Okay.

I offer the Gospel of Mark, 6: 1 through 11.  

It starts out by saying, “ Then He went out from there and came to His own country, and his disciples followed Him.”

Now, this hardly mentions that He did not have His Own Country to begin with, but let’s work around that a bit . . . 6:3: “ ‘Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and the brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon?  And are not His sisters here with us?’ And so they were offended at Him.”

Well, um?  I’d be a bit offended too, if only because dear old Dad – Joseph, if one recalls – got dropped like a hot potato right up front.  What the heck did Dad do, other than get cuckolded by God, to deserve being left out of the rest of the story?  Did he forget to pay the child-support?  And who knew, prior to this statement, that James, Joses, Simon, and even Judas were his brothers?  And there were sisters too?  

Now, either this Joseph fella wasn’t a very jealous sort of a man, or this Mary wasn’t all that Virginal a woman, or this God was pretty smitten and just kept it up, or something . . . or maybe this part of an otherwise ‘literal’ account is somewhat less than literal, and it ‘means’ something other than what it says, but only this time, and the rest of the time it ‘means’ exactly what it says, which lets you fellas off the hook to decide for yourselves just what your particular God might have actually said or ‘meant’ . . . 

But then, 6:4: “ But Jesus said to them, ‘ A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house.’”  So, the lament was that those who knew Him the best disrespected His Word, and I guess that makes sense in a way – but He still had no other country to go to, and seemed to take several of his ‘brothers’ along with him as disciples nonetheless.  But none of His sisters.  That makes sense too.  Since in this new ‘country’ of His that He came to – 6:5 “Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid his hands on a few sick people and healed them.”

And, 6:6: “And he marveled because of their unbelief. Then He went about the villages, in a circuit, teaching.”  Teaching what, exactly?  If healing the sick here and there was not a ‘mighty work,’ and if He was now in ‘His own country,’ and lamenting aloud that He was purely disrespected back home, then in what possible sense could one go to one’s own country (notwithstanding, again, that there was no such place),  and still ‘marvel’ that nobody, even there, believed in Him?  He even had to ‘teach’ the folks in the little ‘villages’ of his ‘own country’?  What’s up with that?  I mean, geez.  

But then he called upon his own ACORN-style coalition of the Twelve, it says, and organized a sit –in – 6:10: “ Also He said to them, ‘ In whatever place you enter a house, stay there till you depart from that place.’”  Well, um, yeah, that is pretty safe.  When folks throw you out, you’ve pretty much stayed with them right up until you depart from that place . . . One can hardly argue with that logic, but then it gets a little bit vindictive – 

6:11: “ And whoever will not receive you or hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them.  Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”  (Exclamation point was provided in the verse, not added as an editorial comment by this writer.)

So Jesus, in the Gospel of Mark, offered Salvation pretty much not at all.  What He said, loud and clear, was something along the lines of – ‘If you refuse to take my Word for it, your entire city will be laid to waste someday, through my wrath at my parents and my own hometown, who didn’t believe me either.  And I left there, and came here, because I’m sick and tired of being disrespected, so either you get on board, or there will be trouble.  Someday.  Sort of. Because my representatives will shake the dust of you mere mortals off their feet, and thus condemn your entire city by that act.  So quake in fear, for this is my Word!”  (Exclamation point was provided by the writer, as an editorial comment.)

Not to be rude, but there are folks standing on cardboard boxes on nearly every street-corner saying similar things even today.  The radio and the television are fairly saturated with political candidates all but promising the end of the world if you fail to vote for them.  Nothing new here.

“Whoever will not receive you or hear you” was threatened with the destruction of their entire city.  That wasn’t really an offer of Salvation, by any means, right there, in writing, in the N.T. Gospel of Mark.

Again, I’m just reading the Book, fellas . . .  And I’m observing once again that anyone who dares to take this Book seriously, and at the same time ‘interpret’ the ‘meanings’ that serve only their own faction while also claiming other parts to be literal run the risk of appointing themselves as appointed and anointed spokespeople for the supernatural.  

From my humble seat, I consider anyone who would first assert a Supernatural Being, then claim to speak for that being, to be dangerously close to self-deluded.  

If you wish to deconstruct the Book, line by line, and trot up ‘quotes’ that support your position, and only your position, then, trust me, I’ll be happy to play that game – I’ve read every word of about 35 versions of this Book, many in the original incarnation, and have discussed the various translations with some of the leading theologians and language experts on the planet.  This isn’t a matter of ‘He-Said, She-Said,’ it is a matter of translation, and if Christians themselves can’t agree on just what their own Book of Belief says, then you fellas have an internal problem that simply cannot be solved.


----------



## apoint

*hummmm*

Oh how we complicate the truth with our own word's.
  If you dont understand the Bible, then dont fill in the blank's with fallen human conjecture.
 God's ways are higher than man's. God's plan is so large we human's cant comprehend the big picture . we have to be born again of the spirit to even get a glimpse of a piece of the grand picture.
   The world say's" show me and Ill believe....
  God say's" believe and Ill show you.


----------



## gtparts

Ronnie T said:


> If you do, and I believe you do, I would suggest you never again say or publish that a Christian doesn't have to repent or pray for forgiveness during their life of living as disciples.
> Because it's an impossibility to do the one without doing the others.



Ronnie, you seem to understand that 1) repentance and 2) praying for forgiveness are not one and the same. You even used the phrase, "...that a Christian doesn't have to repent or pray for forgiveness...".

Let me say, that if you check all my posts on this thread, you will see I did not speak (write) against repentance at any time. To repent means "to turn away from", in this case from sin. I will always teach that repentance is always the proper response to known or revealed sin.
So, let's agree on that point, so we do not have to revisit my position on repentance.

As to praying for forgiveness, it is appropriate and necessary for the unbeliever to do so, for salvation. 

For the believer - saved through faith by grace, his or her sins, past, present, and future are covered by the blood of Christ. There is no further need for forgiveness, it's a done deal. 

There is still a need for confession and repentance because our fellowship with God suffers and our service to Him and our fellow man is hindered when we fail to 1) agree with God about our sin (confession) and 2) turn away from that sin (repentance). The relationship is damaged, not destroyed. The Holy Spirit will not allow a believer to slide, bringing our sin to mind so that we cannot be at peace. God is far more concerned about our character than our comfort.

So, yes, we (the saved) need to confess.
And, yes, we (the saved) need to repent.
We do not need to ask for forgiveness of something He has already forgiven. He granted forgiveness when we were saved. 

His forgiveness is every bit as sufficient as His grace.


----------



## Lowjack

apoint said:


> Oh how we complicate the truth with our own word's.
> If you dont understand the Bible, then dont fill in the blank's with fallen human conjecture.
> God's ways are higher than man's. God's plan is so large we human's cant comprehend the big picture . we have to be born again of the spirit to even get a glimpse of a piece of the grand picture.
> The world say's" show me and Ill believe....
> God say's" believe and Ill show you.



Amen ! Preach it Brother !


----------



## Ronnie T

gtparts said:


> As to praying for forgiveness, it is appropriate and necessary for the unbeliever to do so, for salvation.
> 
> For the believer - saved through faith by grace, his or her sins, past, present, and future are covered by the blood of Christ. There is no further need for forgiveness, it's a done deal.
> 
> There is still a need for confession and repentance because our fellowship with God suffers and our service to Him and our fellow man is hindered when we fail to 1) agree with God about our sin (confession) and 2) turn away from that sin (repentance). The relationship is damaged, not destroyed. The Holy Spirit will not allow a believer to slide, bringing our sin to mind so that we cannot be at peace. God is far more concerned about our character than our comfort.
> 
> So, yes, we (the saved) need to confess.
> And, yes, we (the saved) need to repent.
> We do not need to ask for forgiveness of something He has already forgiven. He granted forgiveness when we were saved.
> 
> His forgiveness is every bit as sufficient as His grace.




When I confess my sins to God I do it through prayer.  I agree that God will always forgive my sins as I ackowledge and confess them but I always ask for His forgiveness.  I know He will forgive me, but I ask anyway as I confess them.
Do you ever "ask" for forgiveness?


----------



## apoint

WE need to ask for forgivness  attleast daily, and forgive everyone daily.
 True story: Preacher died and went to heaven. God told him he could not come in because of unforgivness in the preacher's heart.
  God revived his dead body to come back and preach about unforgivness... God's love is his grace and forgivness of our sin's.
 He expect's the same from us. More than  7 x 70.....
   Lojack, I love the Menorha, who is Yeshua.


----------



## farmasis

Ronnie T said:


> Then you are incorrect also, and I'll show you in just a moment.
> 
> 
> If you are a Christian and aren't continually repenting you will never experience that rebirth that the Holy Spirit is there guiding and leading you to.


 

You sure are calling a lot of folks wrong lately...now step back and calm down a little and try to understand what folks are saying...then disagree all you want to.

A Christian should ask for forgiveness...he should tithe...he should tell others about Jesus, etc. etc.

But, it is not necessary to keep his salvation.

Do you believe you lose your salvation everytime you sin?

Do you repent to get it back?

Do you really believe that?


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> You sure are calling a lot of folks wrong lately...now step back and calm down a little and try to understand what folks are saying...then disagree all you want to.
> 
> A Christian should ask for forgiveness...he should tithe...he should tell others about Jesus, etc. etc.
> 
> But, it is not necessary to keep his salvation.
> 
> Do you believe you lose your salvation everytime you sin?
> 
> Do you repent to get it back?
> 
> Do you really believe that?




I bring these things up because of what I find posted on this forum by Christians because other people read and might be influenced by.
-Just today, a Christian made a statement that a Christian doesn't have to ask for forgiveness once they've been saved.
-Now you speak of all the things a Christian should do, but don't have to for salvation.
I guess it just seems odd to hear people speaking of what should happen but doesn't have to happen.

And no, I don't think I lose my salvation everytime I have sinned.  But I do believe that a person who is filled with the Spirit of God will want to express their sadness for their shortcomings.

What can be ignored without harming salvation isn't a part of my thinking or teaching.
Disciples of Christ don't speak in terms of the minimum.
You already know that for me there's no such thing as OSAS.  There's only living for Christ.
For a disciple, there's never any concern for salvation.

I can't honestly say what God's reaction would be toward a person who claims to be His child but never ask for forgiveness.
It is God who justifies.  It is Jesus who's blood was shed.
Those things will be seen on the day that God chooses.


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> Disciples of Christ don't speak in terms of the minimum.



This is a very ancient concept:  asking "what is the most I can do to serve God" rather than "what is the bare minimum I must do".


----------



## farmasis

Well, it is a beautiful thing to realize the completeness of our salvation through the sufferings of Christ and the eternal security that it brings. Sorry that some cannot see that beauty.

Does a person have to repent through their life? Depends...for salvation, no. For obedience and for forgiveness, yes. It is a good indicator of a changed life through Christ, and one should question if they had a conversion if they do not feel repentence for their sin.

We all agree that nothing our pathetic offerings could bring on such mercy, but some think we can somehow influence it after we recieve it.

You say you do not believe that we are saved by works, but seem to think that works maintains our salvation. Jesus is the author and finisher of our salvation, not us.


----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> Sorry that some cannot see that beauty.



"Some" includes all Catholic, Orthodox and Coptic churches plus a large number of Protestant groups.  Looking at Christianity as a whole, OSAS is a minority view.


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> Well, it is a beautiful thing to realize the completeness of our salvation through the sufferings of Christ and the eternal security that it brings. Sorry that some cannot see that beauty.
> 
> Does a person have to repent through their life?
> Depends...for salvation, no.
> For obedience and for forgiveness, yes. It is a good indicator of a changed life through Christ, and one should question if they had a conversion if they do not feel repentence for their sin.
> 
> We all agree that nothing our pathetic offerings could bring on such mercy, but some think we can somehow influence it after we recieve it.
> 
> You say you do not believe that we are saved by works, but seem to think that works maintains our salvation. Jesus is the author and finisher of our salvation, not us.



I hope you know I love you Brother.
But your theology is truely unsettling to me.

It seems to me that you always have to seperate what has to be done for salvaton from what is commanded but can be ignored.
By doing that you seem to be teaching a gospel that provides a really good excuse to sin.

I don't even want to discuss your belief concerning repentance.
Show me a person who does not repent during the life they are living as a Christian, and I'll show you a person that will hear "Depart from Me for I never knew you".
If you aren't repenting, you haven't been filled by the Holy Spirit and you haven't experienced rebirth.
And you're going to hel l.
And that's Bible brother.

Fact:  Christians are commanded to be obedient.  
Fact:  Christian's are also told that the sins of those who follow Jesus will be forgiven.
But that doesn't give you or anyone else licenses to decide which areas a person might be disobedient in.

If I gave you a list, could you tell me which things I'm obligated to be obedient to and which I'm not??


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## Ronnie T

Farmasis,
I found the following concerning OSAS and I can agree with it exactly as written with one footnote.


*"Once Saved, Always Saved – The New Creation
Critics of the “once saved, always saved” doctrine claim that it gives Christians a license to sin. They presume that those who believe in eternal security intend to accept salvation, and then continue to willingly sin. This is inaccurate, because anyone who has been truly saved is a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17), has the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 1 Thessalonians 4:8), and now wants to live for Christ. Someone who continues to willingly and blatantly live in sin has not truly accepted Christ (1 John 2:19; 1 John 3:6; James 1:26). While this false belief may be held by some, it is not a part of the teachings of any true Christian church (Romans 3:8). 

A person who willingly, humbly, repents of sin and turns towards the cross, trusting Christ as their Savior, will be saved (Acts 16:31; John 6:37; John 14:6). That salvation is once and for all, eternal, and secure. Those who truly trust in Christ are saved once, and saved always. "*


*I believe the Bible teaches that there are some who can and will fall away from the faith.  That they can turn from the Spirit within them.


----------



## apoint

How about the last chapter in the Bible.
 If you add to or take away from these words your name will be taken from the book of life.
 Sounds to me if your saved your in the book of life and can be taken out of the book of life. Or loose your salvation..


----------



## gtparts

Ronnie T said:


> I hope you know I love you Brother.
> But your theology is truly unsettling to me.
> 
> It seems to me that you always have to separate what has to be done for salvation from what is commanded but can be ignored.
> By doing that you seem to be teaching a gospel that provides a really good excuse to sin.
> 
> I don't even want to discuss your belief concerning repentance.
> Show me a person who does not repent during the life they are living as a Christian, and I'll show you a person that will hear "Depart from Me for I never knew you".
> If you aren't repenting, you haven't been filled by the Holy Spirit and you haven't experienced rebirth.
> And you're going to hel l.
> And that's Bible brother.
> 
> Fact:  Christians are commanded to be obedient.
> Fact:  Christian's are also told that the sins of those who follow Jesus have been forgiven.
> But that doesn't give you or anyone else licenses to decide which areas a person might be disobedient in.
> 
> If I gave you a list, could you tell me which things I'm obligated to be obedient to and which I'm not??



Fixed your 2nd Fact above.

You say above: "Show me a person who does not repent during the life they are living as a  Christian, and I'll show you a person that will hear 'Depart from Me  for I never knew you'."

I agree 100%, but repentance is not asking for forgiveness.
"Repentance" is turning from sin, a particular sin.
"Asking for forgiveness" is petitioning for pardon, condonation, exculpation.

For a Christian, to confess and repent are the expected actions one must make for sin, both being commanded by God.

I find nowhere in Scripture where God requires a saved person to petition for forgiveness he has already received. I think it very appropriate to praise Him and thank Him for what He has already done, but as a saved person, all that person's sins have been forgiven, covered by Jesus' precious blood, at the point where that person's name was written in the Book of Life, when he or she was saved.

Is it possible, even highly probable, that you have some sin in your distant past for which you have not asked for forgiveness? Perhaps you disobeyed a parent and they didn't catch you? Something so long forgotten that you aren't even aware of the specifics? Kinda scary to think one might hear "I never knew you!" over something you can't even remember doing. How does your theology allow for such an old unremembered sin?

God's Word tells me, as His child, I am forgiven now and forever for every sin of omission or commission, past, present, and future, by thought or deed, because of what God has done for me, through Christ on the cross. Why is that so hard to understand and claim as an heir? My Father tells me it is so and I believe Him. I find great comfort in what He says.


----------



## SneekEE

centerpin fan said:


> A decision.
> 
> I think Billy Graham uses the phrase "make a decision for Christ".  I'm pretty sure we used that in Campus Crusade, as well.  If we can decide to follow Christ, we can decide to stop following Him.



Wow, I knew i was missing somthing in all these posts. So the statement you are making is, basicaly, sin will not cause a person to loose there eternial life, but if a person chooses or decides he no longer believes, he can loose is eternial life, is that right?

Billy Graham, isnt he that fellow who preaches that even people who are non believing, and even do not know the name of Jesus get to go to heaven? yeah, I realy dont like the whole make a decsison for Christ sermons. I feel like people who decide to be saved, can indeed decide to  be unsaved. But I do not think people who God decides to save, can ever do anything but be kept by the grace of God.The bible does say that it is by faith we are saved, but it also says it is God who keeps us in the faith, He is the author and finisher of our faith. So i dont see how a person could ever decide to stop believing when the bible teaches that it is God who is causing us to believe in the first place.

Honestly I had not considered your point b4 now, that beeing, what happens to the man who stops believing?? But off the top of my head thats what I got, and would have to say again, nope, not gunna happen. Not to a true convert anyway. But to a false convert, sure.

Consider these 2 people.

1 guy in church, hears the gospel, and is unsure if there is a heaven and he-ll, but to be safe, he is told to repeat the sinners prayer, and believe, and he will go  to heaven. So the ole boy is smart enough that he knows should he die, and discover there is a God, at least he would have a better chance if he had said the prayer, then if not.So he goes down the isle, not realy a believer, but not enough evidence to be a doubter, sort of on the fence. So he plays it safe, and "decides to accept Jesus" by his own intellectual decision. Years later, after beeing assured he is heaven bound, some scientist comes along with irrefutable evidence that there is no life after death. Add to that the mans desire of the flesh, and instantly you have a back sliden  he--ll bound, once saved, but now lossed person. And every one around who didnt know anybetter in the first place decides the man is now lost again.


2nd guy in church. Hears the gospel proclaimed, and then by the power of Gods spirit is convicted of the truth, and believes all he hears.He now knows with every cell of his beeing it is true. He did not just decide to believe, he DOES believe, cause God has now caused him too.This man, now beeing drawn by God, has no choice but to fall before God, and repent and God grants hm everlasting life. God instantly changes this man, places His spirit with in this man, and he is now a new creature in Christ. He now feels the joy of the lord, and when he sins, and greives Gods spirit, who now lives in him, then he too feels the saddness he is causeing God. Eventualy, if this man falls into sin, God will either bring him to his knees again, or bring him home.But none the less, he will repent, and has never lost his salvation. And nothing in all the world will convince him other wise.

2 men. 2 salvations, 1 was true, one was false.

Has anyone ever wondered how it is that they can go from beeing a lost non believing person, to beeing born again gospel believing person? I mean, how is it that you decided to believe what only a moment or so before did not? What evidence made you go from denying the truth to proclaiming it? How did you hate God, and His Light one moment, and the next just make a decision to love Him? I mean realy, can a leperd change his spots? nope.But God can.

 Same is true with faith. There is no proof for our  faith, I mean, we never saw Jesus, we dont know for sure there is a God, but we believe anyway, believe it more than anything we do have proof for.

 Why do you believe and another does not? Dont tell me cause the bible says it.I didnt ask where I can find what it is you believe, I am asking why do you believe what the bible says, and a lost person does not? What is it that occures when you have 2 men set and hear the gospel, one instantly believes and the other is left non beleiving? Is it not the power of God? And if it is the power of God to cause us to believe, can that same power not keep us believing all the days of our life?


Sorry, next time i want type as much, just been away from the computer a couple days, and wont be back for a couple more, but look forward to hear from ya. God bless.


----------



## SneekEE

apoint said:


> How about the last chapter in the Bible.
> If you add to or take away from these words your name will be taken from the book of life.
> Sounds to me if your saved your in the book of life and can be taken out of the book of life. Or loose your salvation..



 I do not believe a saved man can become lost, but sir you have finaly posted a verse that gives me pause, makes me say, hummm, i hadnt thought about that.For that thank you, i love it.

Now, are you shure it says a mans name will be removed or is that somthing you are adding to it?

I recon folks will say that is what it means, but I am sure when I looked in my bible it didnt say a persons name would be taken out, and I am also sure it didnt say the person was taken out.

Aint sayin you are wrong, just stating facts. Always start with facts. Now I am about to go and try to see things your way, if it is possible. I was telling someone not too long ago, we should be like the beureans, beerans, ... never mind how ya spell it. I was saying we need to be like them folks who listened to all men then studied the scriptures to see what is true. I dont try to study the scriptures to see what is false, i look to see if it is true. So, you say that a mans name or even hisself can be taken out of the book, I am going to go study and see if what my bible says, can also be interpeted to mean what you say it says. Couple different versions i thumbed through said our share can be lost, our portion, but not soul. Even if it does mean that, when you compare that verse with others, the best I could say is that it is possible for a man to loose his salvation, but will never happen for God will keep the possibility from comming to pass.

God bless


----------



## Ronnie T

gtparts said:


> Fixed your 2nd Fact above.
> 
> You say above: "Show me a person who does not repent during the life they are living as a  Christian, and I'll show you a person that will hear 'Depart from Me  for I never knew you'."
> 
> I agree 100%, but repentance is not asking for forgiveness.
> "Repentance" is turning from sin, a particular sin.
> "Asking for forgiveness" is petitioning for pardon, condonation, exculpation.
> 
> For a Christian, to confess and repent are the expected actions one must make for sin, both being commanded by God.
> 
> I find nowhere in Scripture where God requires a saved person to petition for forgiveness he has already received. I think it very appropriate to praise Him and thank Him for what He has already done, but as a saved person, all that person's sins have been forgiven, covered by Jesus' precious blood, at the point where that person's name was written in the Book of Life, when he or she was saved.
> 
> Is it possible, even highly probable, that you have some sin in your distant past for which you have not asked for forgiveness? Perhaps you disobeyed a parent and they didn't catch you? Something so long forgotten that you aren't even aware of the specifics? Kinda scary to think one might hear "I never knew you!" over something you can't even remember doing. How does your theology allow for such an old unremembered sin?
> 
> God's Word tells me, as His child, I am forgiven now and forever for every sin of omission or commission, past, present, and future, by thought or deed, because of what God has done for me, through Christ on the cross. Why is that so hard to understand and claim as an heir? My Father tells me it is so and I believe Him. I find great comfort in what He says.



I agree except I'll add this:  As you know, Christians, after receiving salvation, are expected to confess their additional sins.  John says if you confess your sins God will forgive your sins.  And there's no way to confess my sins to God but through prayer.

You say you're already saved from all future sins.
What if you are saved but are now a practicing homosexual?
Are you automatically saved from that present sin?


----------



## SneekEE

Let me make a point here, share with you a little more of my ignorance about what men think. I just discovered that OSAS or Once Saved Always Saved is a "doctrine". 

I thought we were just all disscussing if a saved person could become lost? 

I did not know there is a doctrine out there with accepted beliefs and verses known as OSAS. I havnt read what that means or just what it teaches, so i am not supporting the teaching in anyway.

I do still stand by every thing I have said concerning a man loosing or not loosing his salvation.  I dont know if I believe in OSAS, or just what it is they mean. Kind of like when you say you beleiev in the trinity. Different folks have different teachings on what that means, and most are heresy. Some say that there are 3 Gods that make up the 1 Godhead, and others say there is 1 God in 3 persons. Man needs to know what is meant by trinity before he says he supports it.Thats all i am saying, I dont support OSAS,not even sure what that is, but I do not beleive a saved man can become lost.

God bless


----------



## SneekEE

Ronnie T said:


> I agree except I'll add this:  As you know, Christians, after receiving salvation, are expected to confess their additional sins.  John says if you confess your sins God will forgive your sins.  And there's no way to confess my sins to God but through prayer.
> 
> You say you're already saved from all future sins.
> What if you are saved but are now a practicing homosexual?
> Are you automatically saved from that present sin?



Ronnie as far as repentance, i think u and me agree saved folks repent. Most do daily. Realy aint even a matter of bible verses, just ask um. I mean, when i sin, i feel bad, and the only way I feel better is to confess it to God, and decide not to do that again. 

Ronnie, all sin is sin, with that thought,answer your own question only asked in another way.

What if you are saved but are now a practicing sin?

Answer: Regardless of what sin a saved person commits, it will not be any "practicing" sin. That is.... all saved people sin,  but there life will not be one of habitual sin.When a person gets saved, they hate what God hates, and Loves the things God loves, they are born again, given a new nature, but I have said that enough.lol. Point is this, the homosexual b4 salvation was practicing, he loved beeing gay, it was a way of life for him. After salvation, the new spirit in him now agrees with God that it is wrong. His desire to please God, because He has a new nature, and it will now equip him with the ability to fight against his old nature, to do the will of the flesh.I know you are familir with the struggles of the flesh and the spirit, that is what i am referring to. If the homosexual is saved, then when he repented not only did he turn from his sin, he also agreed with God it was wrong. Should he fall into that sin again, he will still feel as if what he is dooing is wrong, he can not enjoy it the way he once did, and if he belongs to God, then God will come for him, and put him back on the right track. Sooner or later, he will repent, and he will not live a habbitual life of sin. If he does, with no remorse, i would say that is the fruit of a false convert. 


This is off topic, maby a little irelavant, but just had a thought. We are Gods child. He is our father. How long would a loving father let there child continue in somthing that would hurt his child? I mean, if i saw my son playing in the street, i would tell him to get off the road.If he didnt..... well, he would if he was my son, lol.Basicaly like I said at first , saved people will repent, cause God comes to get them, if He is there Father. Thy rod and thy staff, both has  comforted  me.


God bless


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## SneekEE

centerpin fan said:


> "Some" includes all Catholic, Orthodox and Coptic churches plus a large number of Protestant groups.  Looking at Christianity as a whole, OSAS is a minority view.



When ever we are taking a vote, or counting numbers on who is in agreement with what, dont forget to include the entire host of heaven, there vote often tends to change the outcome.

That beeing said, this is one of my fav quotes.

Error does not become Truth because it is widely accepted; 
Truth does not become error, even when it stands alone!


How ever, see post,  232 , i think. There it explaines I may not agree at all with OSAS.Stll support all I have said, just didnt know OSAS was a doctrine, and i aint read what they say they believe.


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## hummerpoo

SneekEE said:


> What is it that occures when you have 2 men set and hear the gospel, one instantly believes and the other is left non beleiving? Is it not the power of God? And if it is the power of God to cause us to believe, can that same power not keep us believing all the days of our life?



Gal. 3:3 Are you so foolish?  Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

I believe this verse, and the context, applies to a lot of what is being said here.

I won't get involved in what amounts to deciding who is saved and who is not.  I would however suggest that where teaching is concerned, it is wise to hold tight to the idea that no man can please God by his own power.


----------



## SneekEE

Amen hummerpoo!  Glad the question mark is not behind the word spirit.No doubt it is God who keeps me, I do not have the power to keep myself saved, nor to not sin. But the power is there, if left up to my own will, my flesh would win every time.

But I thank God He works His will in me, to keep me on His path.

Philippians 2
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

and
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


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## gtparts

Ronnie T said:


> I agree except I'll add this:  As you know, Christians, after receiving salvation, are expected to confess their additional sins.  John says if you confess your sins God will forgive your sins.  And there's no way to confess my sins to God but through prayer.
> 
> You say you're already saved from all future sins.
> What if you are saved but are now a practicing homosexual?
> Are you automatically saved from that present sin?



Your supposition that a saved person can then become a practicing homosexual is completely false and plainly erroneous. Dwelling in sin is sure evidence of a life that has not been transformed by God at salvation. The one you mention, according to Scripture, is still dead in his sin. Sounds like he may well be one of those hollering "Lord! Lord!", only to hear "I am quite certain you have never been a servant of mine. Depart."


----------



## SneekEE

gtparts said:


> Your supposition that a saved person can then become a practicing homosexual is completely false and plainly erroneous. Dwelling in sin is sure evidence of a life that has not been transformed by God at salvation. The one you mention, according to Scripture, is still dead in his sin. Sounds like he may well be one of those hollering "Lord! Lord!", only to hear "I am quite certain you have never been a servant of mine. Depart."



i think I used the term habitual sin, but dwelling in sin may be a better way to put it. You made the same point i was trying to make, only in alot fewer words, eye need this skill. lol!


----------



## SneekEE

To all those who think you can loose your salvation thanks for posting your thoughts, i have enjoyed reading all this and looking up the verses has realy been edifying.I dont recon I ever considered the subject this much before, hadnt ever run into a man saying he was saved but now he is lost. By the way I keep asking yall if any of you have ever lost yalls salvation, but no one answered. So let me ask this, to those who believe you can loose your salvation, are you saved? If you were to die tonight, do you know right now, that you would stand before the Lord, and He would say well done my good and faithfull servant? The bible says we can know if we have eternial life, do yall know that you are saved?


----------



## Ronnie T

SneekEE said:


> To all those who think you can loose your salvation thanks for posting your thoughts, i have enjoyed reading all this and looking up the verses has realy been edifying.I dont recon I ever considered the subject this much before, hadnt ever run into a man saying he was saved but now he is lost. By the way I keep asking yall if any of you have ever lost yalls salvation, but no one answered. So let me ask this, to those who believe you can loose your salvation, are you saved? If you were to die tonight, do you know right now, that you would stand before the Lord, and He would say well done my good and faithfull servant? The bible says we can know if we have eternial life, do yall know that you are saved?




I absolutely know that I am saved tonight and if I leave this world before morning it will be a great honor to stand before my heavenly father.  I am confident of that.
I'm confident of that because my Lord and Savior died for my sins and my heavenly Father has forgiven me of my sins.  
My confidence isn't based upon my works.  My personal works are a laugh compared to what God has done.

My confidence isn't based upon a moment in my past when I confessed my faith in Jesus Christ.

My confidence is best described this way:    

1 John 3:21-24 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; I only posted verse 21.
I look into my own heart and am assured that I really do believe and trust in Jesus Christ as my Lord.
I know He loves me becauses He's here.  
And I trust Him.  I really trust Him.

Here's all those verses.  1 John 3:21-24  Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, 
we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, 
because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. 
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, 
and love one another, just as He commanded us. 
The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. 
We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.


----------



## apoint

SneekEE said:


> I do not believe a saved man can become lost, but sir you have finaly posted a verse that gives me pause, makes me say, hummm, i hadnt thought about that.For that thank you, i love it.
> 
> Now, are you shure it says a mans name will be removed or is that somthing you are adding to it?
> 
> I recon folks will say that is what it means, but I am sure when I looked in my bible it didnt say a persons name would be taken out, and I am also sure it didnt say the person was taken out.
> 
> Aint sayin you are wrong, just stating facts. Always start with facts. Now I am about to go and try to see things your way, if it is possible. I was telling someone not too long ago, we should be like the beureans, beerans, ... never mind how ya spell it. I was saying we need to be like them folks who listened to all men then studied the scriptures to see what is true. I dont try to study the scriptures to see what is false, i look to see if it is true. So, you say that a mans name or even hisself can be taken out of the book, I am going to go study and see if what my bible says, can also be interpeted to mean what you say it says. Couple different versions i thumbed through said our share can be lost, our portion, but not soul. Even if it does mean that, when you compare that verse with others, the best I could say is that it is possible for a man to loose his salvation, but will never happen for God will keep the possibility from comming to pass.
> 
> God bless



 I thought you were going to post verses to defend your not loosing your part[ name] out of the holy city and from the things which are written in this book. It means loosing your part in heaven. If you have no part in Heaven I doubt you would be there at all.
 Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is an impardonable sin.
   I personaly love the Lord and cant see me stopping that or loosing my salvation, but Im not someone else's free will.
 God wont drag you into Heaven if you dont want to go.


----------



## apoint

again- from the, Complete Jewish Bible, word for word..
     " I worn everyone hearing the word of the prophecy in this book that if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues written in this book. And if anyone takes  anything  from the words in the book of prophecy, God will take  away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, as described in this book. 
 The one who is testifying to these thing;s  say's, Yes, I am coming soon!
 Amen! Come, Lord Yeshua!
 May the grace of the Lord be with all!"       YES, It says. " God will take away his share from the tree of life." Meaning, You will have NO LIFE IN HEAVEN.. I could be wrong but that is what it says word for scriptureal word.
 Now there something to chew on.   Hummmm- OSAS ?


----------



## Dominic

apoint said:


> How about the last chapter in the Bible...



Do you mean the last chapter of the last book in the Bible?


----------



## apoint

Dominic said:


> Do you mean the last chapter of the last book in the Bible?



 If you have ever read the book you would know exactly where I mean.
 This is the page from" The Complete Jewish Bible." Rev, 22-18
 OSAS ? I report you decide.....
 No share in the tree of life is death..... no salvation.....


----------



## Dominic

apoint said:


> How about the last chapter in the Bible...






Dominic said:


> Do you mean the last chapter of the last book in the Bible?





apoint said:


> If you have ever read the book you would know exactly where I mean.
> This is the page from" The Complete Jewish Bible." Rev, 22-18
> OSAS ? I report you decide.....
> No share in the tree of life is death..... no salvation.....



I ask a very simple question. Did you mean the "last chapter of the Bible" or "the last chapter of the last book of the Bible"? 

Easy question 

Also what's with the Jewish Bible thing? Do you believe the New Testament was written in Hebrew first?


----------



## apoint

Dominic said:


> I ask a very simple question. Did you mean the "last chapter of the Bible" or "the last chapter of the last book of the Bible"?
> 
> Easy question
> 
> Also what's with the Jewish Bible thing? Do you believe the New Testament was written in Hebrew first?



 I know the Catholics wrote books before they came out of the trees.  But the Jews actually knew God personally and got it right the first time . Translate that in aramaic . shabbat shalom


----------



## Israel

Before this degenerates into "my religion is older/better/bigger/stronger/smarter/godlier than yours" we should consider that God is calling us back past all the organizations of man to "know Him who is from the beginning".

In the beginning God...

God didn't become merciful in Christ or evolve toward it...Christ is manifest to show who God always is, always has been.

The saved man is the man God makes.

The one outside is the self made man.

Paul said " I am what I am by the grace of God"
No one knows "I am" apart from that grace.
And no man can steal that, diminish that, restrict that, impede that or contradict that the man who is "I am by the grace of God" has his being in the very one whose being is also and only the ineffable and free.

All religion evolves from taste not, touch not...in other words...what are the behaviors we shall find acceptable and others that are worthy of restriction.

The man who is justified knows God and believes on the One he has sent. This is eternal life.
Everything else is still just man "trying to be..."


----------



## Jeff57

Ronnie T said:


> Farmasis,
> I found the following concerning OSAS and I can agree with it exactly as written with one footnote.
> 
> 
> *"Once Saved, Always Saved – The New Creation
> Critics of the “once saved, always saved” doctrine claim that it gives Christians a license to sin. They presume that those who believe in eternal security intend to accept salvation, and then continue to willingly sin. This is inaccurate, because anyone who has been truly saved is a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17), has the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 1 Thessalonians 4:8), and now wants to live for Christ. Someone who continues to willingly and blatantly live in sin has not truly accepted Christ (1 John 2:19; 1 John 3:6; James 1:26). While this false belief may be held by some, it is not a part of the teachings of any true Christian church (Romans 3:8).
> 
> A person who willingly, humbly, repents of sin and turns towards the cross, trusting Christ as their Savior, will be saved (Acts 16:31; John 6:37; John 14:6). That salvation is once and for all, eternal, and secure. Those who truly trust in Christ are saved once, and saved always. "*
> 
> 
> *I believe the Bible teaches that there are some who can and will fall away from the faith.  That they can turn from the Spirit within them.



And here is where our differences lie.  You believe those that fall away were saved and lost their salvation while I believe they were false converts and never knew  the Lord.  And where I struggle with your position is at what point is salvation lost.  For someone who was once saved and forgiven of their sins to now be lost would have to be because of some new sin or combination of sin, would it not?


----------



## Jeffriesw

Jeff57 said:


> And here is where our differences lie.  You believe those that fall away were saved and lost their salvation while I believe they were false converts and never knew  the Lord.  And where I struggle with your position is at what point is salvation lost.  For someone who was once saved and forgiven of their sins to now be lost would have to be because of some new sin or combination of sin, would it not?





X's 2


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## Ronnie T

Jeff57 said:


> And here is where our differences lie.  You believe those that fall away were saved and lost their salvation while I believe they were false converts and never knew  the Lord.  And where I struggle with your position is at what point is salvation lost.  For someone who was once saved and forgiven of their sins to now be lost would have to be because of some new sin or combination of sin, would it not?



No.  It would have nothing to do with sin, but with heart, and love, and purpose.  No.  I don't believe one can sin themselves out of salvation.
But I do believe the Bible say one can be in the faith and then fall from it.  The only reason I believe it is because it says it.  Where and when does it happen?  Not my job.


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## Dominic

apoint said:


> How about the last chapter in the Bible...






Dominic said:


> Do you mean the last chapter of the last book in the Bible?





apoint said:


> If you have ever read the book you would know exactly where I mean.
> This is the page from" The Complete Jewish Bible." Rev, 22-18
> OSAS ? I report you decide.....
> No share in the tree of life is death..... no salvation.....







Dominic said:


> I ask a very simple question. Did you mean the "last chapter of the Bible" or "the last chapter of the last book of the Bible"?
> 
> Easy question
> 
> Also what's with the Jewish Bible thing? Do you believe the New Testament was written in Hebrew first?





apoint said:


> I know the Catholics wrote books before they came out of the trees.  But the Jews actualy knew God personaly and got it right the first time . Translate that in aramaic brother. shabbat shalom



Again all I was asking for was a clarification


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## earl

Welcome to the forum apoint. Just a quick question or two .
Did you learn your preaching/teaching skills form Lowjack ?
Are you his brother ?
Do you have a problem with Catholics ?


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## Jeff57

Ronnie T said:


> No.  It would have nothing to do with sin, but with heart, and love, and purpose.  No.  I don't believe one can sin themselves out of salvation.
> But I do believe the Bible say one can be in the faith and then fall from it.  The only reason I believe it is because it says it.  Where and when does it happen?  Not my job.



I'm really trying to understand your position and I'm not purposely trying to be a thorn in your side but I just can't get my mind around it.  
Sin separates us from God and Christ gave his life to redeem us from that sin. Those of us that confess Him and believe that God raised Him from the dead are saved. I believe we are in agreement to this point.  You say that we can lose that salvation but not because of sin and I don't understand how, after knowing Christ, we can once again be separated from God.  If, as you say, we can be again separated from Him, how can it not be because of sin?  

I hope you have a blessed day and you receive a blessing from the Lord today.  For today is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.


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## Israel

Happy is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity.
If we would judge ourselves, we will not be judged with the world.

1Co 11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. 


It's a powerful thing that God has put his judgment in the heart of man...and then tells him to fearlessly, and uncompromisingly, exercise it.


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## apoint

earl said:


> Welcome to the forum apoint. Just a quick question or two .
> Did you learn your preaching/teaching skills form Lowjack ?
> Are you his brother ?
> Do you have a problem with Catholics ?



 Dont know Mr Lowjack but Im his spiritual brother. Dont have problems with Catholics but I just like the truth without  mans Bull mixed in.


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## centerpin fan

Jeff57 said:


> ... how, after knowing Christ, we can once again be separated from God.  If, as you say, we can be again separated from Him, how can it not be because of sin?



To answer your question (Ronnie can add his own thoughts, but he agreed with this before):



centerpin fan said:


> I don't think sin in and of itself causes us to lose our salvation.  Sin can harden your heart, though, to the point that you abandon God.



Adultery is sin but it will not end a marriage.  However, it can damage the marriage to the point that one or both of the partners just decide to end it.  

To continue the marriage analogy, an argument that is often brought up in defense of OSAS is that "if someone falls away, they were false converts to begin with."  No one can say that for sure, just as no one can say that a man who divorces his wife proves that he never loved her in the first place.

Also (as I said before), I prefer not to say "losing" your salvation because that implies salvation can slip away like coins falling out of your pocket.  Muhammad Ali (then Cassius Clay) did not "lose" his Olympic gold medal.  He threw it in the Ohio River.


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## farmasis

To my brothers who think they can return their salvation or have it stripped away..scripture says the gifts of God are irrevocable. To me that means final. Call it OSAS, eternal security, or whatever. 

I do not think we create your salvation and you cannot leave it.

Jesus, and not ourselves, is the author and finisher of our faith....and we are saved by grace through faith.

I am tired or arguing with my Christian friends. If thinking you can lose your salvation makes you a better Christian...that is great! I promise I will not let my assurance of salvation be a badge to sin, and will never teach another Christian to do so.

Appoint, I am not sure what John meant by taking away someone's share or part in the tree of life. Maybe a blessing, etc..but in context of the Bible, letting scripture reveal scripture, it is not your eternal life that would make God a liar.


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## gtparts

centerpin fan said:


> To answer your question (Ronnie can add his own thoughts, but he agreed with this before):
> 
> 
> 
> Adultery is sin but it will not end a marriage.  However, it can damage the marriage to the point that one or both of the partners just decide to end it.
> 
> To continue the marriage analogy, an argument that is often brought up in defense of OSAS is that "if someone falls away, they were false converts to begin with."  No one can say that for sure, just as no one can say that a man who divorces his wife proves that he never loved her in the first place.
> 
> Also (as I said before), I prefer not to say "losing" your salvation because that implies salvation can slip away like coins falling out of your pocket.  Muhammad Ali (then Cassius Clay) did not "lose" his Olympic gold medal.  He threw it in the Ohio River.



And if Ali/Clay's medal had been in God's keeping, as is the salvation of all the redeemed, he'd still have it.


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## Ronnie T

I spent about 2.5 hours this evening investigation OSAS doctrine.
It became very confusing because there are so many differing beliefs and understanding of it.

One thing I just came accross is the statement below:

"Modern-day denominations typically interpret some biblical passages literally, and conflicting passages symbolically. That way, they can support their denominational doctrine by quoting selected passages from the Bible."

Certainly, that has to be a problem in all spiritual discussions.


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## christianhunter

As simple as it can be put.Salvation is a gift from GOD!
If you could lose it, it would not be a gift,it would be more like a conditional loan.I do not understand the confusion.Really!


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## Ronnie T

*What the early Christians believed*:           http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sava4.htm

The teachings of early Christians are important to us today. From circa 30 CE (when Jesus was executed) to 200 CE (the end of the first century CE), believers were not very far removed from the direct teachings of Jesus and the apostles. Various Christian groups during much of the first century had direct access to the teachings of Paul and the former disciples in the form of his lectures and letters. By the late first century, this knowledge had been passed on to elders (a.k.a. Church Fathers), who wrote extensively on matters of belief. None of these elders were great theologians; none developed intricate systems of codified Christian beliefs and practices. That was to come later in the history of the Christian church.

The early "mainline" Christian movement unanimously believed that a saved person could lose their salvation. (By "mainline" we refer to Pauline Christianity which gradually evolved into the established Christian church. Authority eventually became concentrated in the five bishops or patriarchs located in Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople, Jerusalem and Rome.) Early Christians believed that continued obedience was required of the believer in order to for them to maintain their salvation intact. Some examples in the writings from that era are: 1 

 Irenaeus (120 to 205 CE) was the overseer of the church at Lyons, France. He believed that a person could only be saved once. If they performed some evil deed, then God would permanently reject them. A Christian had "only one swing at the cat." 

Irenaeus explained this very clearly in his book "Against Heresies," Book 4, Chapter 27, Section 2: 
"Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over Him...we should  beware, lest somehow, after [we have attained] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we [will] obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but rather be shut out from His kingdom."

 Tertullian (140 to 230 CE) was the elder in the church at Carthage, North Africa. He wrote in his book "On Repentance," Chapter 6: 
"Some people act as though God were under an obligation to bestow even on the unworthy His intended gift...For do not many afterwards fall out of grace? Is not this gift taken away from many?"

 Cyprian (200 to 258 CE) was an overseer of the church in Carthage, North Africa. Referring to Matthew 10:22, he wrote in his book "Unity of the Church," Sec. 21: 
"It is written 'He who endures to the end, the same shall be saved.' So whatever precedes the end is only a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation. It is not the final point wherein we have already gained the full result of the ascent."

He appears to have believed that an individual only attains salvation at the end of their life. Everything before their death are just steps on the way towards salvation. One might infer that a saved person could stumble in sin before they died and never attain salvation.


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## Ronnie T

*Bible passages on the impermanence of salvation*:       http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sava3.htm

The Bible contains some passages which appear to say clearly and unambiguously that once a person gains salvation, they can lose it. Examples are from the King James Version of the Bible unless the language is so archaic that it is difficult to understand; more modern translations are then used.

 Matthew 10:22: "...he that endureth to the end shall be saved." The implication is that someone who does not stands firm to the end will not be saved. Some theologians dismiss this interpretation; they believe that a person who does not stand firm never was saved in the first place; thus all that are truly saved will continue in that state. 
 John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that that everyone who believes in him might not perish, but may have eternal life." (NAB) The NIV translation of this verse (described above) implies that everyone who believes "shall" have eternal life. The Amplified Bible agrees. But other translations use alternative words: "should," "may," or "might." These latter version of the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) imply that saved persons may have eternal life or possibly may perish. Presumably they could lose their salvation by their actions.

This is superb example of how Bible translators can select words which match their own theological belief systems. The NAB translation is used extensively by Roman Catholics who believe that an individual can lose their salvation may times during their lifetime, and frequently regain it by sincerely participating in church sacraments. Those conservative Christians who believe that one cannot lose ones salvation frequently use the NIV translation. 
 John 15:6: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up , thrown into the fire and burned." (NIV) A person who "does not remain" in Jesus is apparently a saved person whose behavior or thoughts have become unacceptable. Throwing the formerly saved person into the fire and burning them is an obvious reference to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----. 
 1 Corinthians 15-2: "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." Paul apparently believes that a person is only saved if they continue to believe in the gospel. If they lose faith in the gospel, presumably they lose their salvation. Some conservative theologians believe that this verse also refers to those who were not really initially saved. 
 Galatians 6:8-9: "The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in going good, for at the proper time, we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." (NIV) This passage appears to make salvation dependent on an individual continually working towards their goal of attaining eternal life. If a person gives up prematurely, then they would lose their salvation. 
 2 Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us." Elsewhere in the Bible a number of verses refer to saved persons reigning with Jesus. So, the "we" in this passage apparently means saved individuals. But if we "deny and disown and reject" (Amplified Bible) Jesus, then he will do the same to us, and presumably terminate our salvation. 
 Hebrews 6:4-6: "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God afresh and put him to an open shame." The first two verses define precisely an individual who had being saved and was receiving the benefits of salvation. The last verse states clearly that a person is quite capable of falling away from the faith...and if they do so, that it is impossible for their salvation to be renewed. 
Christians who believe that a person can never lose their salvation may interpret this passage as meaning:

That they were never true believers in the first place, and thus were never initially saved, or 
That Verse 6 says that a saved person who rejected Jesus and denied the Christian faith would never be able to repent in the future. If they could never repent, then they could never be saved again. However, it is not clear why they could not repent a second time. If they repented once, there does not seem to be any obvious reason why they could not repeat the process at a later time. 
This passage has caused some theologians to doubt that Hebrews was written by an apostle. Some church leaders have been convinced to "refuse the right of lapsed believers to be reinstated in the church..." 1

 Hebrews 10:26: "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." The early Christians universally believed that this passage referred to persons who had been saved, had continued to sin, and had thereby lost their salvation. Some present-day theologians teach that this verse refers only to the unsaved. 
 2 Peter 2:20-21: "For if after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered onto them." The first verse appears to refer to persons who have turned away from the corruption of the world, have been saved, and later returned entangled in the world. The implication is that these people will be more viciously treated after death by God's wrath than those people who were never saved.


----------



## Ronnie T

*Bible passages on the permanence of salvation ("Once saved, always saved"):* http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sava2.htm


The Bible contains many passages which appear to say clearly and unambiguously that once a person gains salvation, they can never lose it. Examples are: 

 John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (NIV) The key words in this verse are "whoever believes...shall...have eternal life." "Whoever" certainly appears to be an totally inclusive term, granting salvation to everyone who believes - irrespective of their behavior. It would seem to apply to persons of both sexes, all races, all nationalities, all sexual orientations, all degrees of ability, etc. The "shall" makes salvation definite and permanent.

 John 6:37: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Presumably the phrase "him that cometh to me" refers to anyone who is saved. Jesus apparently says that he will never reject a saved individual.

 John 6:40: "....every one which seeth the Son and believeth on him, may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day" This passage appears to imply that every person who is saved will be raised from the dead; none of those who had been saved will be lost. The first phrase is presumably not to be taken literally, as people today cannot visually see Jesus during their life on earth. The NIV translates it as "everyone who looks to the Son." The Amplified Bible says "everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him..." This is an enormous expansion of the original Greek and introduces many concepts not present in the Greek original. 

 John 10:28-29: "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." This is a very strong statement on the permanence of salvation. Jesus appears to state that after he gives an individual eternal life, they shall never perish but continue to have eternal life, even though others might try to interfere.

 Romans 8:38-39: "...neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." This passage does not directly mention salvation. However, a connection might be inferred: to have the love of God could means that the person is saved and will go to Heaven; to be subject to the wrath of God would mean that they were unsaved and will end up in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.

 2 Corinthians 1:21-22: "...[God] anointed us. set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." (NIV) This passage apparently states that, once we are saved, God guarantees our salvation; we are secure.

 1 John 4:13-17: "By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit...and the one who abides in love abides in God and God abides in him...we may have confidence in the day of judgment..." This passage appears to indicate that once saved, we can have confidence that we will enter heaven.


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## FireDoc

I've been reading ya'lls posts and got to studying my own self. I found a page that I believe to be true. If I may, I'll cut/paste it here.

Frequently  Asked  Questions

Can I Fall From Grace, or once saved always saved?  

 "Fall from grace, once saved always saved; both phrases say the same thing. This basic idea is that we are saved when we do something. The something is determined by which denominational church you happen to ask. Then from that point on, you are saved and you cannot fall out of the state of being saved. The reason you cannot fall is because of God's Grace. If you think it takes works beyond this point of being saved, than it would be by your works and not by God's grace that saves you. The following is a verse that backs the general theory:" 

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 

"According to this verse they might be onto something. Where their thinking falls short is that grace comes through faith." 

Romans 3:27  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 

Romans 9:32  Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone; 

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 

"So if we're saved by grace because of our faith, then work is still not necessary, right, WRONG. Here's where our works are needed. By works we show our faith. If we're not doing good works, our faith is mere hear say." 

James 2:14  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 

James 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 

James 2:18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. 

James 2:20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 

James 2:21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 

James 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 

James 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 

James 2:25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 

James 2:26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also 

"The misconception is if you believe your works are what saves you, than your wrong, but works are still necessary. You can not save yourself. You do good works because it is a commandment and it shows you have faith. To not do "good works" is a sin. Works will not save you, but no works or bad works, will condemn you." 

Matthew 16:27  For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 

1 Corinthians 3:13  Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.   

1 Corinthians 3:14  If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.   

1 Corinthians 15:58  Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.    

2 Corinthians11:13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works   

1 Thessalonians 4:11  And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;   

2 Timothy 4:5  But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.   

Titus 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.   

James 1:25  But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. 

Revelation 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 

"So let's put this together. We are saved by God's grace, grace is freely given to those who have faith and our works show faith. So what happens if we stop our works? I think the answer to that is we would fall from grace. But there are no scriptures to back this theory are there?"   

 Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.   

1Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.   

1 Tim. 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;   

Heb. 2: 1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.   

Heb. 3: 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.   

Heb. 4: 1  Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.   

Heb. 4: 11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.    

Heb. 12: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;   

2 Peter 3: 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.


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## centerpin fan

gtparts said:


> And if Ali/Clay's medal had been in God's keeping, as is the salvation of all the redeemed, he'd still have it.



So we have no free will after we're saved?  We're puppets on a string?  My friend who abandoned the church for the Nation of Islam is still heaven-bound?


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## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> So we have no free will after we're saved?  We're puppets on a string?  My friend who abandoned the church for the Nation of Islam is still heaven-bound?



If we have no free will and the Holy Spirit is not totally leading us, why are we still sinning, and cheating on our wives(Not Me) and cheating on our taxes.
Why isn't the HS keeping us from sin???????


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## gin house

paul himself talks about finding himself doing things he shouldnt and what he should be doing he doesnt do.  when youre saved you are a new creature, the old sin nature still exists, satan will trouble you more than ever,  but no, you cannot lose youre salvation.  simply studying the scriputures will tell you that.  you may backslide, and you will answer for what you do wrong but will still go to heaven.  If works determine if any of us make it to heaven then were all headed to a bad place.  by grace thru faith we are saved, sealed to the day of redemption.  no doubt, i know where im goin, aint skeered. lol.


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## earl

apoint said:


> Dont know Mr Lowjack but Im his spiritual brother. Dont have problems with Catholics but I just like the truth without  mans Bull mixed in.





 It would appear from the tone of your post that you were throwing a little Bull yourself . 


Originally Posted by apoint  
I know the Catholics wrote books before they came out of the trees. But the Jews actualy knew God personaly and got it right the first time . Translate that in aramaic brother. shabbat shalom

Perhaps  I read it harsher than you intended.


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## apoint

God wont drag us into heaven if your fallen from grace. You have to endure to the end.
Complete Jewish Bible is plain on this. 1 Cor 6-9.   No drunkard, infidelity, homosexuality, stealing, greedy, contemptuous, ect. 
 Im not going to argue that a born again person wont do these things.


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## apoint

earl said:


> It would appear from the tone of your post that you were throwing a little Bull yourself .
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by apoint
> I know the Catholics wrote books before they came out of the trees. But the Jews actualy knew God personaly and got it right the first time . Translate that in aramaic brother. shabbat shalom
> 
> Perhaps  I read it harsher than you intended.



 Perhaps you did read it harder than I intended. Perhaps you should read the tone that Mr Dominic talks to me and others here.  perhaps you like siding with dominics tone.
 perhaps you and dominic need to get off my back.


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## Ronnie T

gin house said:


> paul himself talks about finding himself doing things he shouldnt and what he should be doing he doesnt do.  when youre saved you are a new creature, the old sin nature still exists, satan will trouble you more than ever,  but no, you cannot lose youre salvation.  simply studying the scriputures will tell you that.  you may backslide, and you will answer for what you do wrong but will still go to heaven.  If works determine if any of us make it to heaven then were all headed to a bad place.  by grace thru faith we are saved, sealed to the day of redemption.  no doubt, i know where im goin, aint skeered. lol.



When you study the "whole" of the scriptures, it isn't as simple as when you don't study the scriptures at all.

2 Peter 2:20-21: "For if after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered onto them."


----------



## centerpin fan

gin house said:


> ... simply studying the scriputures will tell you that...



Everybody has scripture to back up his beliefs.


----------



## farmasis

So, Ronnie....what was the point of Jesus coming to earth and dying? Have you made him just another sacrifice?


----------



## farmasis

Ronnie T said:


> When you study the "whole" of the scriptures, it isn't as simple as when you don't study the scriptures at all.
> 
> 2 Peter 2:20-21: "For if after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered onto them."


 



			
				centerpin fan said:
			
		

> Everybody has scripture to back up his beliefs.


 
Yep, here is a good example. 

Let's keep this verse in context and we will see that it is talking about false teachers that lead others away from the truth, not a Christian who decides to stop believing. It would have been better for the false teacher to never have known the truth, than to twist it to untruths.

Lots of good stuff in that chapter...maybe we should all read it in it's entirety.


----------



## gtparts

centerpin fan said:


> So we have no free will after we're saved?  We're puppets on a string?  My friend who abandoned the church for the Nation of Islam is still heaven-bound?



Sure , you have free will. You just don't have control over "your" salvation. Since God extends His salvation by grace through faith, He holds it in trust for the redeemed. Those purchased with the blood of Christ are His possession. He keeps and preserves the gift, the privilege of eternal life, for His own.

Sadly for your friend, it would appear that whatever earlier commitment he made was not genuine, since he obviously abandoned it. His conversion to Islam has not caught God by surprise. In fact, God is never unaware, confused or duped by anything any man has ever thought or done. 

Many seekers who hold to the notion of "Jesus plus works equals salvation" get tired, even exhausted, trying to do enough, be "good" enough to merit eternal life. It is a hopelessly fruitless endeavor! 

I suspect he just got burned out.

How does one ever know that he or she has done enough??? Or, is it a matter of quality,i.e. doing one or two truly great deeds.... or a combination of quantity and quality works? 

The Word of God tells us we can know, absolutely, that we have eternal life. If it requires work on our part, we can never be certain.

What the Word says is that our works will never secure salvation. Salvation is not to be the motivation for works. Our love for God is to be our motivation. If our works are motivated by salvation, it should be quite evident that we are trying to square a debt rather than just being obedient to God's plan. 

Works should be our response to God because of who He is.


----------



## Israel

centerpin fan said:


> Everybody has scripture to back up his beliefs.



2Ti 2:19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 

I wonder if we sometimes ask the wrong question.


The saved are the saved.

Till the thing in us that "has to know"... dies so the thing that is content to understand God knows all things... lives... there is little God will speak to us apart from parables.

Even all the scriptures. If we chase them down to "make our point"...well, lets' just say God hasn't given us Christ to win arguments.

Paul got past caring much about his own salvation.
Got to a place where being accursed from Christ for the sake of others salvation was more fitting.
Peculiar isn't it?
We begin to understand when the thing that needs to understand everything is trusted into God's hands...and left for dead.
God raises what he chooses.
And God is good.


----------



## centerpin fan

gtparts said:


> Sure , you have free will. You just don't have control over "your" salvation.



Then we are puppets on a string.  I just disagree.




gtparts said:


> Sadly for your friend, it would appear that whatever earlier commitment he made was not genuine, since he obviously abandoned it.



As I said previously, you cannot know that.  That's the "no true Scotsman" argument applied to soteriology.  It's Calvin's theory and nothing more.  

This is why I said earlier that OSAS sounds good in theory but completely falls apart in practice.  It forces you to judge a man's committment to Christ even though you have never met him.  

How about my previous analogy?  If a man divorces his wife, does that mean he never loved her in the first place? God certainly saw the divorce coming before they even said "I do". 




gtparts said:


> Many seekers who hold to the notion of "Jesus plus works equals salvation" get tired, even exhausted, trying to do enough, be "good" enough to merit eternal life. It is a hopelessly fruitless endeavor!
> 
> I suspect he just got burned out.



He got tired of a works-based salvation, so he turned to _Islam_ for relief?  Think about that for a second.


----------



## Israel

Free will is only true in Christ. 
No other "will" is free.

We sometimes forget that God is sovereign, that the truth revealed in Christ is this "God will intervene totally unbidden for the sake of his elect, because of his love for them..."
This does not stop being true after we come to believe, either.

God is well able to "arrange" circumstance to bring us to our senses. Do we say..."gee, you got in the way of my free will when you woke me up to the truth that I am eating with the swine...while you remain merciful"?
God's kindness leads us to repentance.
I will have mercy upon whom I have mercy...

If the prodigal appraised his father as this man:

"Man, if I go home he will beat the heck out of me and tell me to never show up again after all I've done..."

Instead of this: 

"I will appeal to what I know is his merciful nature and tell him I will be content to live as a servant, for I know he will receive me..."

The question then becomes...did the son return home only because he was hungry...or because his Father's sovereign goodness was something he knew he could rely on...and was totally and completely separate from his own being?

Yes, God is free to reveal his goodness at any time to any of his children and remind them, wake them up, and not one of them will have anything to gainsay about their "lack of free will" in the matter...for they know they are really only free in the goodness of God...at all other times, and in all other ways they are bound to death...where nothing is free.


----------



## farmasis

centerpin fan said:


> Then we are puppets on a string. I just disagree.


 
Do you think a person can save themeselves or only by God?




> This is why I said earlier that OSAS sounds good in theory but completely falls apart in practice. It forces you to judge a man's committment to Christ even though you have never met him.


 
It also sounds good biblically.
Forces someone to judge someone's committment? It does no such thing. That is what a works based salvation does.



> How about my previous analogy? If a man divorces his wife, does that mean he never loved her in the first place? God certainly saw the divorce coming before they even said "I do".


 
No, it means he changed his mind and he is a fallible man.
Do you think God can lie?


----------



## Israel

Even the man who has decided to sojourn in the land of Edom for a time, can be made to come back to his senses.
Maybe God has even purposed that sheep to go astray so that the one sent to find him might know the Master's joy in his return home?

"sorry buddy, but that wrong stuff you were believing about Jesus has led you here, He's not looking for you to try and be good..."

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----------



## centerpin fan

farmasis said:


> Do you think a person can save themeselves or only by God?



God saves us, but He doesn't drag anybody into heaven who doesn't want to go.




farmasis said:


> It also sounds good biblically.



I would argue that only a few of the reformers thought it sounded good biblically.




farmasis said:


> Forces someone to judge someone's committment? It does no such thing.



Sure it does.  You did it back in post 131 and gtparts did it in post 275.




farmasis said:


> No, it means he changed his mind and he is a fallible man.



Fallible men change their minds about God everyday.

BTW, what happened to this?



farmasis said:


> I am tired or arguing with my Christian friends.


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> So, Ronnie....what was the point of Jesus coming to earth and dying? Have you made him just another sacrifice?



Romans 6:  1Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 

3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 

5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 
6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 

 11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 
13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 
14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?


*Christ died on the cross to change my life and your life.
He died to create a relationship, not a religion.
He died to give me and you a reason to love His father the way His father always wanted to be loved.


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> Yep, here is a good example.
> 
> Let's keep this verse in context and we will see that it is talking about false teachers that lead others away from the truth, not a Christian who decides to stop believing. It would have been better for the false teacher to never have known the truth, than to twist it to untruths.
> 
> Lots of good stuff in that chapter...maybe we should all read it in it's entirety.



That is the most unscriptural analysis if this verse I've ever read.

2 Peter 2:20-21:  
20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.   NASB

*You're right.  The above scripture are dealing with those false teachers.  But verse 20 and 21 are also talking of those false teachers.
And many of those false teachers had come to Christ, accepted Him, and then later became entangled in the world and was overcome.  And they were worse off than before.

Meaning:  They had left the world for Christ, then later, became an enemy of Christ and His church.

Plain and simple.

Next......


----------



## Ronnie T

gtparts said:


> Sure , you have free will. You just don't have control over "your" salvation. Since God extends His salvation by grace through faith, He holds it in trust for the redeemed. Those purchased with the blood of Christ are His possession. He keeps and preserves the gift, the privilege of eternal life, for His own.
> 
> Sadly for your friend, it would appear that whatever earlier commitment he made was not genuine, since he obviously abandoned it. His conversion to Islam has not caught God by surprise. In fact, God is never unaware, confused or duped by anything any man has ever thought or done.
> 
> Many seekers who hold to the notion of "Jesus plus works equals salvation" get tired, even exhausted, trying to do enough, be "good" enough to merit eternal life. It is a hopelessly fruitless endeavor!
> 
> I suspect he just got burned out.
> 
> How does one ever know that he or she has done enough??? Or, is it a matter of quality,i.e. doing one or two truly great deeds.... or a combination of quantity and quality works?
> 
> The Word of God tells us we can know, absolutely, that we have eternal life.
> 
> *It sure does.
> Here's the way John describes it:*
> 
> 1John 1: 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness,
> we lie and do not practice the truth;
> 
> 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light,
> we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of
> Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
> 
> 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves
> and the truth is not in us.
> 
> 
> 
> If it requires work on our part, we can never be certain.
> 
> What the Word says is that our works will never secure salvation. Salvation is not to be the motivation for works. Our love for God is to be our motivation. If our works are motivated by salvation, it should be quite evident that we are trying to square a debt rather than just being obedient to God's plan.
> 
> Works should be our response to God because of who He is.



You're the one that keeps talking about WORKS.
Works will not get you or me to heaven.

It has to do with either "walking with Jesus" or "not walking with Jesus".  Or walking in the light of Jesus as opposed to walking in the darkness.

If we say we have fellowship with Christ, yet we are obviously not walking(living) with Christ, we lie.


----------



## Ronnie T

Israel said:


> 2Ti 2:19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
> 
> I wonder if we sometimes ask the wrong question.
> 
> 
> The saved are the saved.
> 
> Till the thing in us that "has to know"... dies so the thing that is content to understand God knows all things... lives... there is little God will speak to us apart from parables.
> 
> Even all the scriptures. If we chase them down to "make our point"...well, lets' just say God hasn't given us Christ to win arguments.
> 
> Paul got past caring much about his own salvation.
> Got to a place where being accursed from Christ for the sake of others salvation was more fitting.
> Peculiar isn't it?
> We begin to understand when the thing that needs to understand everything is trusted into God's hands...and left for dead.
> God raises what he chooses.
> And God is good.



I'm with you.

God raises what He chooses.
God has a history of being taken advantage of.
Of people expecting much from God but giving little.
(Until God would do what He Chose)


----------



## Spotlite

I have read this thread a 100 times it seems, I just cant figure out what is so hard to see here. 



farmasis said:


> Yep, here is a good example.
> 
> Let's keep this verse in context and we will see that it is talking about false teachers that lead others away from the truth, not a Christian who decides to stop believing. It would have been better for the false teacher to never have known the truth, than to twist it to untruths.
> 
> Lots of good stuff in that chapter...maybe we should all read it in it's entirety.





Ronnie T said:


> When you study the "whole" of the scriptures, it isn't as simple as when you don't study the scriptures at all.
> 
> 2 Peter 2:20-21: "For if after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered onto them."


looks like they did in fact know the way of righteousness through Jesus


----------



## Lowjack

If God did not Spare the Natural Branches but Cut them off because of unbelief, he can also cut you off who are grafted branches for Boasting of your Salvation; RM 11.

IS THE CHRISTIAN SALVATION CONDITIONAL?

While reviewing the footnotes of a Christian edition of the Scriptures, an edition that would be accepted by those who are fundamental and evangelical in their convictions, we came across two items of concern to us. They appear to contradict the express teachings of the Word of God.

These contradictions do not have to do with subtle points of theology, such as the threeness-oneness of the Godhead. If they did they would not cause us concern. No doubt some of the aspects of God will not be understood by us for many millennia to come.

Rather, these are contradictions of basic teachings of the Scriptures. The topic we are considering is the conditional nature of salvation.

The first of these statements, from the footnotes explaining Ephesians 2:8, is, salvation is unconditional. The grace of God is unconditional.

The Lord Jesus said, "but he that endureth to the end shall be saved" (Matthew 10:22). The footnotes of this popular edition claim (if we are understanding them correctly) that we are not saved on the condition we endure to the end but by an abstract, unconditional, eternal "grace" of God. Here is a denial of the written Word of God.

Are the footnotes reflecting that a period of apostasy has crept in on us?

Christian teachers answer by claiming that the four Gospel accounts do not apply to Christians, only to the Jews. Do such teachers have any idea of the ramifications of such a position? This would mean that the Sermon on the Mount, one of the historic possessions of the Christian Church, never has really applied to the Church. This would mean that the sayings of the Lord Jesus, which all true Christians treasure, are not for us but for the Jews.

Here is a grievous position. When the Lord said, "Abide in me," was He speaking to the Jews only? We personally could never accept that the Words of the Lord in the Gospels do not apply to Christian people.

It appears that the errors in theology prevalent today could be recognized easily by an alert high-school student. Since Christian scholars are intelligent and devout people, it must be true they are interpreting the Scriptures from an erroneous framework of understanding. They can perceive passages of Scripture only in terms of a manmade framework. They contradict the Scriptures and for some reason cannot see the discrepancies.

Let us consider the idea that salvation by grace is unconditional, meaning, as the writer explains, that our behavior subsequent to our profession of faith in Christ cannot damage our relationship to God.

There are several passages of Scripture that proclaim the contrary. 

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: . . . . (John 15:2)

The above passage is a clear statement that salvation, which has to do with our abiding in Jesus, depends on whether or not we bear fruit. Yet today’s scholars claim that salvation is unconditional. The Scriptures teach that salvation is conditional. The scholars state that salvation is unconditional. It is time for a reformation of our thinking.

A branch in Christ is a Christian.

Each Christian is permitted to remain in Christ on the condition he or she bear the fruit of righteous conduct. If he does not bear the fruit of Christ-likeness God shall remove him from the Vine, from Christ. This concept is reinforced by verse six of the fifteenth chapter of John.

It seems to us that an intelligent person, whose perception had not been colored by an outside framework of understanding would interpret John 15:2,6 to mean that Christians can remain in Christ on the condition that they bear fruit.

Again: 

But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. (Hebrews 3:6; and again in verse fourteen)

We are made partakers of Christ on the condition we hold fast to the hope of salvation or, as Jesus expressed it, if we "endure" to the end. Yet, our popular Christian edition claims in effect that this is not true.

The written Word of almighty God is not true?

Again: 

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. (Jude 1:5)

"Having saved the people . . . afterward destroyed them."

Does this biblical type apply to Christians? If not, why did Jude take the trouble to put us "in remembrance"? Would not an unbiased reader conclude the Word of God is warning us that we must endure to the end if we would accomplish the will of God in our life?

The errors being set forth today do not have to do with subtle points of theology, the domain of professors and scholars. They are errors concerning the basic facts of our redemption.

The second item is found in the footnotes that comment on Hebrews 6:4-8. The footnotes contend that this passage is not referring to Christians who have neglected their salvation (which is one of the main exhortations of the Book of Hebrews—2:3) but to religious professors of faith in Christ who never have possessed eternal life. They have been Christians in outward show only.

From what could such hypocrites (according to the writer of the footnotes) "fall away," seeing they never had possessed salvation?

Here are the scriptural statements describing the "religious professors" whose experience, according to the footnotes, went no deeper than the external trappings of religious forms: 

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (Hebrews 6:4,5)

Let us examine carefully the criteria the writer of the footnotes must take into account when determining that these believers never have possessed eternal life but have been professors of religion whose Christianity consisted only of an outward show of formalities:

"Were once enlightened."

"Have tasted of the heavenly gift."

"Were made partakers of the Holy Ghost."

"Have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come."

These are the facts the commentator must consider when making his judgment that these backsliders never have possessed eternal life but have been Christians in external appearance only.

We would ask: What criteria does our commentator employ when deciding who is a genuine Christian? Is it some form of works? If it is righteous behavior that identifies a true believer, then our argument in the present article is shown to have merit.

Or is it a period of time? If so, how long must an individual partake of the Holy Spirit and taste the Word of God before he no longer is a mere professor?

If the criteria given in this passage are not an indication of true salvation, how, then, can any of us know if he is saved?

Why cannot an able scholar, as well as the devout readers of this edition, perceive the obvious discrepancy here? Is it because the framework of understanding Christians currently are employing will not permit the Word of God to mean what it says?

The reason we will not permit the Word of God to mean what it says is that the spirit of Satan is in us. Satan is determined that neither he nor anyone else has any reason to fear God; that a day of reckoning must never come no matter how badly anyone behaves.

Some of today’s theologians are misinterpreting the message of the Book of Hebrews. In their attempt to prove salvation is unconditional, that there is nothing a believer can do which will place his salvation in jeopardy, they are wrenching the Scriptures so they will mean what they want them to mean.

How many Christian believers are living careless lives, are not forsaking the world, not laying down their life, not taking up their cross, not following Jesus with their whole heart and mind, because there has been implanted in them the idea that no matter what they do they will go to Paradise when they die?

The number is legion. Through their sin and disobedience the Christians are destroying their own resurrection. The blame lies at the door of those who, in spite of the assertions of the New Testament, teach that salvation is unconditional.

It is our belief that the sinning believers and their teachers will stand together at the Judgment Seat of Christ. They will be rewarded together according to their conduct in the flesh. The watchmen did not sound the alarm. The blood of the guilty will be required at their hands.

Our salvation indeed is conditional. Both rewards and punishments shall be administered at the Judgment Seat of Christ, just as the Scriptures declare.

Contemporary Christianity is so weak in Kingdom righteousness and power it is unable to check the rush of civilization into the arms of Antichrist. The Christian answer to this lack of power appears to be, "Any moment now we all shall be caught away to a comfortable home in Paradise, so why should we be overly concerned about what takes place in the world?"

Christ taught that the saints are the light of the world, not of Heaven. When the Lord returns to earth we shall return with Him. Then the world will be our home. Our home is where Jesus is.

Each of us shall appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ so his behavior in the world may be revealed and evaluated. We will be saved if we put our trust in the Lord Jesus, looking continually to Him, enduring faithfully throughout the many tribulations and testings that come upon us during our pilgrimage.

http://www.wor.org/books/i/issalcon.htm


----------



## farmasis

centerpin fan said:


> God saves us, but He doesn't drag anybody into heaven who doesn't want to go.


 
First of all, if saved you would never NOT want to go...but yes God does keep us from falling..Bible says so.



> I would argue that only a few of the reformers thought it sounded good biblically.


 
My foundation is based on the Word of God, not the thoughts of reformers.



> Sure it does. You did it back in post 131 and gtparts did it in post 275.


 
I am not judging, but the Bible says they will remain with us if they were truely with us..once again that is the Bible. (gotta theme going here...)



> BTW, what happened to this?


 
I am fallible.


----------



## farmasis

Ronnie T said:


> *Christ died on the cross to change my life and your life.
> He died to create a relationship, not a religion.
> He died to give me and you a reason to love His father the way His father always wanted to be loved.


 
That is only half of it.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:1, 2)

Propitiaition is not having the ability to ask for forgiveness of sin, it is the final restitution and payment of that sin.


----------



## farmasis

Ronnie T said:


> That is the most unscriptural analysis if this verse I've ever read.


 
Well, I guess we both have that feeling in common, because you have taken it totally out of context.



Ronnie T said:


> 2 Peter 2:20-21:
> 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. NASB
> 
> *You're right. The above scripture are dealing with those false teachers. But verse 20 and 21 are also talking of those false teachers.
> And many of those false teachers had come to Christ, accepted Him, and then later became entangled in the world and was overcome. And they were worse off than before.
> 
> Meaning: They had left the world for Christ, then later, became an enemy of Christ and His church.
> 
> Plain and simple.
> 
> Next......


 
NO!!!!! It is saying that it would have been better for those false teachers to have never known the words of God than to lead others astray purposefully by twisting them!!!


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> Well, I guess we both have that feeling in common, because you have taken it totally out of context.
> 
> 
> 
> NO!!!!! It is saying that it would have been better for those false teachers to have never known the words of God than to lead others astray purposefully by twisting them!!!



The people he's talking about have escaped the corruption of the world.............
and they have now become entangled in it again.

They left the world for Christ.  Now they've gone back.

and are again entangled in it and overcome

Come on now, you know it's there.


----------



## Israel

farmasis said:


> Well, I guess we both have that feeling in common, because you have taken it totally out of context.
> 
> 
> NO!!!!! It is saying that it would have been better for those false teachers to have never known the words of God than to lead others astray purposefully by twisting them!!!





It is saying that there are those who, as mentioned elsewhere, have been partakers of the heavenly gift and tasted of the power of the age to come...

I don't believe one could rightly understand that to mean only those who set out to twist the words of God. Especially in light of this:

"_If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome,_"


"...by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ..."

Words worth considering...


----------



## Ronnie T

Lowjack said:


> If God did not Spare the Natural Branches but Cut them off because of unbelief, he can also cut you off who are grafted branches for Boasting of your Salvation; RM 11.
> 
> IS THE CHRISTIAN SALVATION CONDITIONAL?
> 
> While reviewing the footnotes of a Christian edition of the Scriptures, an edition that would be accepted by those who are fundamental and evangelical in their convictions, we came across two items of concern to us. They appear to contradict the express teachings of the Word of God.
> 
> These contradictions do not have to do with subtle points of theology, such as the threeness-oneness of the Godhead. If they did they would not cause us concern. No doubt some of the aspects of God will not be understood by us for many millennia to come.
> 
> Rather, these are contradictions of basic teachings of the Scriptures. The topic we are considering is the conditional nature of salvation.
> 
> The first of these statements, from the footnotes explaining Ephesians 2:8, is, salvation is unconditional. The grace of God is unconditional.
> 
> The Lord Jesus said, "but he that endureth to the end shall be saved" (Matthew 10:22). The footnotes of this popular edition claim (if we are understanding them correctly) that we are not saved on the condition we endure to the end but by an abstract, unconditional, eternal "grace" of God. Here is a denial of the written Word of God.
> 
> Are the footnotes reflecting that a period of apostasy has crept in on us?
> 
> Christian teachers answer by claiming that the four Gospel accounts do not apply to Christians, only to the Jews. Do such teachers have any idea of the ramifications of such a position? This would mean that the Sermon on the Mount, one of the historic possessions of the Christian Church, never has really applied to the Church. This would mean that the sayings of the Lord Jesus, which all true Christians treasure, are not for us but for the Jews.
> 
> Here is a grievous position. When the Lord said, "Abide in me," was He speaking to the Jews only? We personally could never accept that the Words of the Lord in the Gospels do not apply to Christian people.
> 
> It appears that the errors in theology prevalent today could be recognized easily by an alert high-school student. Since Christian scholars are intelligent and devout people, it must be true they are interpreting the Scriptures from an erroneous framework of understanding. They can perceive passages of Scripture only in terms of a manmade framework. They contradict the Scriptures and for some reason cannot see the discrepancies.
> 
> Let us consider the idea that salvation by grace is unconditional, meaning, as the writer explains, that our behavior subsequent to our profession of faith in Christ cannot damage our relationship to God.
> 
> There are several passages of Scripture that proclaim the contrary.
> 
> Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: . . . . (John 15:2)
> 
> The above passage is a clear statement that salvation, which has to do with our abiding in Jesus, depends on whether or not we bear fruit. Yet today’s scholars claim that salvation is unconditional. The Scriptures teach that salvation is conditional. The scholars state that salvation is unconditional. It is time for a reformation of our thinking.
> 
> A branch in Christ is a Christian.
> 
> Each Christian is permitted to remain in Christ on the condition he or she bear the fruit of righteous conduct. If he does not bear the fruit of Christ-likeness God shall remove him from the Vine, from Christ. This concept is reinforced by verse six of the fifteenth chapter of John.
> 
> It seems to us that an intelligent person, whose perception had not been colored by an outside framework of understanding would interpret John 15:2,6 to mean that Christians can remain in Christ on the condition that they bear fruit.
> 
> Again:
> 
> But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. (Hebrews 3:6; and again in verse fourteen)
> 
> We are made partakers of Christ on the condition we hold fast to the hope of salvation or, as Jesus expressed it, if we "endure" to the end. Yet, our popular Christian edition claims in effect that this is not true.
> 
> The written Word of almighty God is not true?
> 
> Again:
> 
> I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. (Jude 1:5)
> 
> "Having saved the people . . . afterward destroyed them."
> 
> Does this biblical type apply to Christians? If not, why did Jude take the trouble to put us "in remembrance"? Would not an unbiased reader conclude the Word of God is warning us that we must endure to the end if we would accomplish the will of God in our life?
> 
> The errors being set forth today do not have to do with subtle points of theology, the domain of professors and scholars. They are errors concerning the basic facts of our redemption.
> 
> The second item is found in the footnotes that comment on Hebrews 6:4-8. The footnotes contend that this passage is not referring to Christians who have neglected their salvation (which is one of the main exhortations of the Book of Hebrews—2:3) but to religious professors of faith in Christ who never have possessed eternal life. They have been Christians in outward show only.
> 
> From what could such hypocrites (according to the writer of the footnotes) "fall away," seeing they never had possessed salvation?
> 
> Here are the scriptural statements describing the "religious professors" whose experience, according to the footnotes, went no deeper than the external trappings of religious forms:
> 
> For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (Hebrews 6:4,5)
> 
> Let us examine carefully the criteria the writer of the footnotes must take into account when determining that these believers never have possessed eternal life but have been professors of religion whose Christianity consisted only of an outward show of formalities:
> 
> "Were once enlightened."
> 
> "Have tasted of the heavenly gift."
> 
> "Were made partakers of the Holy Ghost."
> 
> "Have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come."
> 
> These are the facts the commentator must consider when making his judgment that these backsliders never have possessed eternal life but have been Christians in external appearance only.
> 
> We would ask: What criteria does our commentator employ when deciding who is a genuine Christian? Is it some form of works? If it is righteous behavior that identifies a true believer, then our argument in the present article is shown to have merit.
> 
> Or is it a period of time? If so, how long must an individual partake of the Holy Spirit and taste the Word of God before he no longer is a mere professor?
> 
> If the criteria given in this passage are not an indication of true salvation, how, then, can any of us know if he is saved?
> 
> Why cannot an able scholar, as well as the devout readers of this edition, perceive the obvious discrepancy here? Is it because the framework of understanding Christians currently are employing will not permit the Word of God to mean what it says?
> 
> The reason we will not permit the Word of God to mean what it says is that the spirit of Satan is in us. Satan is determined that neither he nor anyone else has any reason to fear God; that a day of reckoning must never come no matter how badly anyone behaves.
> 
> Some of today’s theologians are misinterpreting the message of the Book of Hebrews. In their attempt to prove salvation is unconditional, that there is nothing a believer can do which will place his salvation in jeopardy, they are wrenching the Scriptures so they will mean what they want them to mean.
> 
> How many Christian believers are living careless lives, are not forsaking the world, not laying down their life, not taking up their cross, not following Jesus with their whole heart and mind, because there has been implanted in them the idea that no matter what they do they will go to Paradise when they die?
> 
> The number is legion. Through their sin and disobedience the Christians are destroying their own resurrection. The blame lies at the door of those who, in spite of the assertions of the New Testament, teach that salvation is unconditional.
> 
> It is our belief that the sinning believers and their teachers will stand together at the Judgment Seat of Christ. They will be rewarded together according to their conduct in the flesh. The watchmen did not sound the alarm. The blood of the guilty will be required at their hands.
> 
> Our salvation indeed is conditional. Both rewards and punishments shall be administered at the Judgment Seat of Christ, just as the Scriptures declare.
> 
> Contemporary Christianity is so weak in Kingdom righteousness and power it is unable to check the rush of civilization into the arms of Antichrist. The Christian answer to this lack of power appears to be, "Any moment now we all shall be caught away to a comfortable home in Paradise, so why should we be overly concerned about what takes place in the world?"
> 
> Christ taught that the saints are the light of the world, not of Heaven. When the Lord returns to earth we shall return with Him. Then the world will be our home. Our home is where Jesus is.
> 
> Each of us shall appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ so his behavior in the world may be revealed and evaluated. We will be saved if we put our trust in the Lord Jesus, looking continually to Him, enduring faithfully throughout the many tribulations and testings that come upon us during our pilgrimage.
> 
> http://www.wor.org/books/i/issalcon.htm




7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, 
we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of
Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 


.


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> first of all, if saved you would never not want to go...but yes god does keep us from falling..bible says so.
> 
> actually, the bible gives several instances where a believer fell away.
> 
> 
> 
> my foundation is based on the word of god, not the thoughts of reformers.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not judging, but the bible says they will remain with us if they were truely with us..once again that is the bible. (gotta theme going here...)
> 
> 
> 
> i am fallible.
> 
> as long as you're living for christ you're infallible; even in your sin.


----------



## Ronnie T

farmasis said:


> That is only half of it.
> 
> My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:1, 2)
> 
> Propitiaition is not having the ability to ask for forgiveness of sin, it is the final restitution and payment of that sin.



Then what you're saying is that they whole world is saved by the blood of Jesus???????????

I know you're not.

John is clearly writing to Children of God.  Born again believers who are living for and loving God.
He's talking to people who are walking with Jesus.


----------



## farmasis

Ronnie T said:


> Then what you're saying is that they whole world is saved by the blood of Jesus???????????
> 
> I know you're not.
> 
> John is clearly writing to Children of God. Born again believers who are living for and loving God.
> He's talking to people who are walking with Jesus.


 

His blood is sufficient for the whole world..but will only be applied to the lives of those who accept him.


----------



## farmasis

Israel said:


> It is saying that there are those who, as mentioned elsewhere, have been partakers of the heavenly gift and tasted of the power of the age to come...
> 
> I don't believe one could rightly understand that to mean only those who set out to twist the words of God. Especially in light of this:
> 
> "_If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome,_"
> 
> 
> "...by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ..."
> 
> Words worth considering...


 
The whole chapter is about false teachers....not Christians. Folks you must keep scripture in correct context. You cannot take one verse out here and another here, and have the full counsel of God.

I guess you can if you want it to say what you like to hear.

Ok, harmonize your interpretations of 2 Peter 2 with Romans 11:29.


----------



## Lowjack

Ronnie T said:


> 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light,
> we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of
> Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
> 
> 
> .



Yes noticed IF


----------



## Israel

farmasis said:


> The whole chapter is about false teachers....not Christians. Folks you must keep scripture in correct context. You cannot take one verse out here and another here, and have the full counsel of God.
> 
> I guess you can if you want it to say what you like to hear.
> 
> Ok, harmonize your interpretations of 2 Peter 2 with Romans 11:29.



It's quite plain these teachers have "returned to their vomit"

 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 
2Pe 2:22  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow _that was washed_ to her wallowing in the mire. 

You either seem (and correct me if I misunderstand) to want to make those of whom this speaks out to be those who have never "known the way of righteousness" (while the scripture describes them as those who have...) or somehow that there is a difference between a "christian" and a preacher/teacher.
If you are saying only teachers, prophets can become like Balaam and go astray...well...even so...isn't that enough of a warning to all? 

"that was washed" is also not without significance.

The question is not whether this section addresses "teachers" or "prophets" or any such thing...but whether the warning is that there are those that have fallen from the truth of God and the Lord who bought them with his blood.


----------



## farmasis

Lowjack said:


> Yes noticed IF


 
I am talking with 2 pastors....do we not agree there is a HUGE difference in fellowship with God and a relationship with God and can you not be out of fellowship with him, but still in a relationship?


----------



## gtparts

Ronnie T said:


> You're the one that keeps talking about WORKS.
> Works will not get you or me to heaven.
> 
> It has to do with either "walking with Jesus" or "not walking with Jesus".  Or walking in the light of Jesus as opposed to walking in the darkness.
> 
> If we say we have fellowship with Christ, yet we are obviously not walking(living) with Christ, we lie.



Great, then we agree that works are off the table when it comes to eternal life.

The only issue that remains is to agree that since salvation is of God and He repeatedly promises those who confess, repent, and place all their trust in the resurrected Son of God, Jesus, that they have eternal life. Eternal life is the state of being always saved, now and forever.

Furthermore, no one can be saved a second time. If it were possible for a saved person to turn and reject so great a love, so great a savior, the Bible tells us they can not be redeemed again, for Christ will not be crucified again for their sake. We cannot undo what God has promised to do. The Bible says that if someone disavows Jesus, they were never one of the redeemed to start with. 

If God promises, He will keep His promise.


----------



## farmasis

Like I said, clearly this passage is addressing false teachers and the punishment they will recieve for spreading false teaching. Now, were the false teachers 'saved' and is part of their punishment the loss of their salvation? I don't think so in lue of other scriptures that say you cannot lose your salvation.

*Q.* I thought I was secure in my salvation by faith. I was recently told, however, that 2Peter 2:21-22 proved that I could lose that assurance. Is that possible? Now I’m concerned about this. Please advise me on this. Thank you so much.
*A.* God’s word cannot contradict itself. There is no verse in the Bible that can cancel out the others. When we think we’ve found one, we have to realize that it’s our understanding that’s faulty, not God’s word.
*2 Peter 2:21-22* is no exception. The whole chapter is about false teachers who know the truth but deliberately teach falsehood. Peter says it would be better for them if they had never known the truth than to have willfully turned their backs on it.
By reading the whole chapter in context instead of just lifting 2 verses out of the middle it’s clear that these men were never saved and will suffer eternal punishment. There’s a big difference between knowing what is right and believing it.

http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/osas-and-2-peter-221-22/


----------



## Israel

What a wonderful Lord.


----------



## Israel

Rev 2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 

I think there may be a difference between doing what the Lord says, and thinking one understands what the Lord says.

I think we think that when we think we understand, the doing becomes moot.

But maybe that's just me.


----------



## Lowjack

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Hebr 10:38-39


----------



## Israel

Ya gotta love this...
Admonitions to press on, encouragements to remain at peace, strive to enter where you already are..., stay with the One who will never leave you...all in all a great work out...


----------



## farmasis

Unless ya'll repent...I am falling out of this conversation...

Seriously..I think I have said all that I need to on this topic. I am moving on.

Uncle!


----------



## Ronnie T

I'm not so sure God sees a difference.

I think it has more to do with loving.


----------



## Israel

yep, the end of it all is love from a pure heart with no hypocrisy...we gotta press on...and rest.


----------



## gtparts

Israel said:


> It's quite plain these teachers have "returned to their vomit"
> 
> For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
> 2Pe 2:22  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow _that was washed_ to her wallowing in the mire.
> 
> You either seem (and correct me if I misunderstand) to want to make those of whom this speaks out to be those who have never "known the way of righteousness" (while the scripture describes them as those who have...) or somehow that there is a difference between a "christian" and a preacher/teacher.
> If you are saying only teachers, prophets can become like Balaam and go astray...well...even so...isn't that enough of a warning to all?
> 
> "that was washed" is also not without significance.
> 
> The question is not whether this section addresses "teachers" or "prophets" or any such thing...but whether the warning is that there are those that have fallen from the truth of God and the Lord who bought them with his blood.



Perhaps the pivotal question is "Does knowing the way of righteousness mean that one accepts and follows that way OR does it indicate a seeker with the head knowledge of the Gospel, who never has given himself over to Jesus' Lordship?

 Many know of Jesus and His teachings. Even the demons are not confused on such points. It is quite another thing to place all of ones trust in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God, crucified, buried, and resurrected for the purpose of reconciling mankind to the Father.

Becoming a child of God is not done through some osmotic process. Just hanging with the saints and taking notes so you can do your own "teaching thing" is not qualifying. To be so close to the truth without capitulating seems most horrible to me. But my reading is that Peter is speaking in general terms about one or more specific individuals who, at one time, had been  around them without being with them. Some surely thought these were genuine disciples. Peter says they proved otherwise.


----------



## gin house

Ronnie T said:


> When you study the "whole" of the scriptures, it isn't as simple as when you don't study the scriptures at all.
> 
> 2 Peter 2:20-21: "For if after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered onto them."



 very true, i was raised in a christian home, went to 9th grade in christian school where every week i had to memorize a full, not partial chapter of the bible(determined by administration) to get to go outside or break.  ive read the scriptures a plenty and continue to do so.  you can take a verse (that to me says nothing about losing salvation, what about heavenly rewards?)  and try to make void of basic promises and gift and the simplicity of being saved.  it would truly worry me to know that my making it to heaven depended on my not sining. that is whay youre saying?  sin is sin, one/ one hundred, both the same.  thats scary.


----------



## gin house

centerpin fan said:


> Everybody has scripture to back up his beliefs.



 my beliefs arent based on a single verse, my beliefs are based on studying the word and prayer.  some verses that are talking about one thing are taken out of context by some who know nothing of what theyre saying and argued about.  i know jesus died to pay the sin debt, i accept him and im a new creature, nowhere in the bible do i find he makes me perfect from sinning, but  i am free from sin.   old sin nature is still in us, satan tried to tempt jesus and failed but hes the only one who was ever perfect, you and i will still sin daily but repentance is required.  hes will keep his promise.


----------



## Israel

gtparts said:


> Perhaps the pivotal question is "Does knowing the way of righteousness mean that one accepts and follows that way OR does it indicate a seeker with the head knowledge of the Gospel, who never has given himself over to Jesus' Lordship?
> 
> Many know of Jesus and His teachings. Even the demons are not confused on such points. It is quite another thing to place all of ones trust in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God, crucified, buried, and resurrected for the purpose of reconciling mankind to the Father.
> 
> Becoming a child of God is not done through some osmotic process. Just hanging with the saints and taking notes so you can do your own "teaching thing" is not qualifying. To be so close to the truth without capitulating seems most horrible to me. But my reading is that Peter is speaking in general terms about one or more specific individuals who, at one time, had been  around them without being with them. Some surely thought these were genuine disciples. Peter says they proved otherwise.



Surely you are not far from the truth of it. 
John said:

1Jn 2:19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

So, all in all, he who endures, remains, appears at the Lord's table is he who is called, chosen, and approved.

Let each man examine himself, whether he be in the faith.

The saved remain the saved.
What can a man do except rejoice?
If it's all in God's hands...are those hands open?
Or closed?

Let each man speak according to his faith.


----------



## Spotlite

farmasis said:


> Like I said, clearly this passage is addressing false teachers and the punishment they will recieve for spreading false teaching. Now, were the false teachers 'saved' and is part of their punishment the loss of their salvation? I don't think so in lue of other scriptures that say you cannot lose your salvation.
> 
> *Q.* I thought I was secure in my salvation by faith. I was recently told, however, that 2Peter 2:21-22 proved that I could lose that assurance. Is that possible? Now I’m concerned about this. Please advise me on this. Thank you so much.
> *A.* God’s word cannot contradict itself. There is no verse in the Bible that can cancel out the others. When we think we’ve found one, we have to realize that it’s our understanding that’s faulty, not God’s word.
> *2 Peter 2:21-22* is no exception. The whole chapter is about false teachers who know the truth but deliberately teach falsehood. Peter says it would be better for them if they had never known the truth than to have willfully turned their backs on it.
> By reading the whole chapter in context instead of just lifting 2 verses out of the middle it’s clear that these men were never saved and will suffer eternal punishment. There’s a big difference between knowing what is right and believing it.
> 
> http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/osas-and-2-peter-221-22/



Either they escaped the pollutions of the world or they didnt...............its very clear these folks came out of the world and became entangled again. How do you become entangled again into something and overcome if you never were untangled from it to start with? Just food for thought. And of course, I agree, read the entire chapter.


----------



## Spotlite

gtparts said:


> Perhaps the pivotal question is "Does knowing the way of righteousness mean that one accepts and follows that way OR does it indicate a seeker with the head knowledge of the Gospel, who never has given himself over to Jesus' Lordship?



Good question, there is a difference. Just knowing the truth and professing the truth are two different things. But do you come out of the pollutions of the world just by knowing? And can you become entangled again by the pollutions of the world, if you never were untangled?


----------



## Ronnie T

Spotlite said:


> Good question, there is a difference. Just knowing the truth and professing the truth are two different things. But do you come out of the pollutions of the world just by knowing? And can you become entangled again by the pollutions of the world, if you never were untangled?



Those are good points.
But if the person were tangled in the world, then became untangled, then became tangled again is a different thing.

2 Peter 2:20-21: "For if after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein[/COLOR*](meaning they were untangled in here someplace)*, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered onto them."


----------



## gin house

we can argue this forever,  there are many parables in the bible that speak tons, think about the prodical son, why is the story in the bible?  think about it?  what does it mean?   one verse shouldnt sum up a solid belief in salvation. guys, if works keep you from him then very few if any will make it, in my opinion.  i will say(dont know anyone on heres status)  that if peoples dedication to visitation and witnessing are near as good as the dedication to arguing who is more knowledgeable about the bible we would be in good shape(christians)  good night fellas.


----------



## Spotlite

Ronnie T said:


> Those are good points.
> But if the person were tangled in the world, then became untangled, then became tangled again is a different thing.
> 
> 2 Peter 2:20-21: "For if after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein[/COLOR*](meaning they were untangled in here someplace)*, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered onto them."



True. I was trying to get out something similar to what you posted.


----------



## Ronnie T

Spotlite said:


> True. I was trying to get out something similar to what you posted.




Certainly there are many people who claim Christ but have no idea why.
Your right.  About three years ago a young couple came to me wanting to be baptized.  They made it clear they didn't want to have any part of church, they just wanted to get baptized in case a terrorist killed them.


----------



## Diogenes

Yegads.  So, if we’re nearly done with the quotation festival, the shoutdown, the cold-shouldering in lieu of thought, and the hallelujah chorus, have we reached a verdict on this ‘Automatic Salvation’ thing?

We’re pretty clear on the ‘Automatic Punishment’ part – everyone and his maiden aunt promises that sort of thing, and also fails to deliver, as any Fifth Grader’s behavior will attest.  But you have to admit, the converse is also something of an undemonstrated  mystery.  I mean, in order for Salvation to be Automatic, or even conditional, doesn’t one first need to consider whether ‘Salvation’ itself is even something, rather than nothing?  

In a way, it is sort of like arguing about whether or not a lightsaber can defeat a repeating blaster, and I suppose a discussion like that is just good clean fun, until some spoil-sport walks by and observes that neither of those things exist.  

Eternal punishment and eternal salvation are cute sorts of concepts, that is to say, but until someone is able to step up and actually show that either one exists, well . . . um . . . You’ll sort of have to forgive us for wondering what all the fuss is about . . . 

After all, one of the many definitions of ‘Spiritual,’ is : “Of or relating to the mind or intellect.”   Another is: “Supernatural or spiritualistic,” and the main definition, #1 in my dictionary, is: “Of, pertaining to, or consisting of spirit; incorporeal.”  

That rather describes everything from ghosts to bourbon.  Now I’ll certainly get behind any argument that bourbon promises ‘Automatic Salvation.’  Not so much the next day, but at the time it can cure even the most troubled thoughts.  Ghosts, on the other hand, even those who some claim have written books, tend to be a bit more elusive, and their promises even more so.

So, aside from another twenty pages of internecine squabbles, has anyone gotten to the bottom of this Salvation topic yet?  

Geez.  Even the Ghost Hunters out there are in more complete agreement on their doctrines and dogmas than you guys are . . .


----------



## Israel

Diogenes said:


> Yegads.  So, if we’re nearly done with the quotation festival, the shoutdown, the cold-shouldering in lieu of thought, and the hallelujah chorus, have we reached a verdict on this ‘Automatic Salvation’ thing?
> 
> We’re pretty clear on the ‘Automatic Punishment’ part – everyone and his maiden aunt promises that sort of thing, and also fails to deliver, as any Fifth Grader’s behavior will attest.  But you have to admit, the converse is also something of an undemonstrated  mystery.  I mean, in order for Salvation to be Automatic, or even conditional, doesn’t one first need to consider whether ‘Salvation’ itself is even something, rather than nothing?
> 
> In a way, it is sort of like arguing about whether or not a lightsaber can defeat a repeating blaster, and I suppose a discussion like that is just good clean fun, until some spoil-sport walks by and observes that neither of those things exist.
> 
> Eternal punishment and eternal salvation are cute sorts of concepts, that is to say, but until someone is able to step up and actually show that either one exists, well . . . um . . . You’ll sort of have to forgive us for wondering what all the fuss is about . . .
> 
> After all, one of the many definitions of ‘Spiritual,’ is : “Of or relating to the mind or intellect.”   Another is: “Supernatural or spiritualistic,” and the main definition, #1 in my dictionary, is: “Of, pertaining to, or consisting of spirit; incorporeal.”
> 
> That rather describes everything from ghosts to bourbon.  Now I’ll certainly get behind any argument that bourbon promises ‘Automatic Salvation.’  Not so much the next day, but at the time it can cure even the most troubled thoughts.  Ghosts, on the other hand, even those who some claim have written books, tend to be a bit more elusive, and their promises even more so.
> 
> So, aside from another twenty pages of internecine squabbles, has anyone gotten to the bottom of this Salvation topic yet?
> 
> Geez.  Even the Ghost Hunters out there are in more complete agreement on their doctrines and dogmas than you guys are . . .




"has anyone gotten to the bottom of this Salvation topic yet?  "


Yes Diogenes.
He's the bottom and the top and everything in between.


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## hummerpoo

gtparts said:


> Perhaps the pivotal question is "Does knowing the way of righteousness mean that one accepts and follows that way OR does it indicate a seeker with the head knowledge of the Gospel, who never has given himself over to Jesus' Lordship?
> 
> Many know of Jesus and His teachings. Even the demons are not confused on such points. It is quite another thing to place all of ones trust in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God, crucified, buried, and resurrected for the purpose of reconciling mankind to the Father.
> 
> Becoming a child of God is not done through some osmotic process. Just hanging with the saints and taking notes so you can do your own "teaching thing" is not qualifying. To be so close to the truth without capitulating seems most horrible to me. But my reading is that Peter is speaking in general terms about one or more specific individuals who, at one time, had been  around them without being with them. Some surely thought these were genuine disciples. Peter says they proved otherwise.



Amen.
Many will say to me Lord Lord...
And perhaps the majority of the passages discussed in this thread.
And one I've been waiting for, and didn't see if it was used, the parable of the tares.


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## Ronnie T

gtparts said:


> Perhaps the pivotal question is "Does knowing the way of righteousness mean that one accepts and follows that way OR does it indicate a seeker with the head knowledge of the Gospel, who never has given himself over to Jesus' Lordship?
> 
> Many know of Jesus and His teachings. Even the demons are not confused on such points. It is quite another thing to place all of ones trust in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God, crucified, buried, and resurrected for the purpose of reconciling mankind to the Father.
> 
> Becoming a child of God is not done through some osmotic process. Just hanging with the saints and taking notes so you can do your own "teaching thing" is not qualifying. To be so close to the truth without capitulating seems most horrible to me. But my reading is that Peter is speaking in general terms about one or more specific individuals who, at one time, had been  around them without being with them. Some surely thought these were genuine disciples. Peter says they proved otherwise.



I'm afraid the church is full of people who still have no Lord in their lives.  And they aren't sure they truly want one.

They're missing out.


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## gtparts

Ronnie T said:


> I'm afraid the church is full of people who still have no Lord in their lives.  And they aren't sure they truly want one.
> 
> They're missing out.



That is the bad news, Ronnie. And it needs to be addressed. It is what I spend much of my time as a lay leader and SS teacher trying to change. Church is a great place to go to work for the Lord because of this sad reality. Opportunities abound.

The good news is that I have found many others, from Catholics, Protestants, denominational backgrounds and non-denominational, who are absolutely in love with and sold out to Jesus. They are the salt and light of this world and they are making a difference.


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## Jeffriesw

Israel said:


> Surely you are not far from the truth of it.
> John said:
> 
> 1Jn 2:19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
> 
> So, all in all, he who endures, remains, appears at the Lord's table is he who is called, chosen, and approved.
> 
> Let each man examine himself, whether he be in the faith.
> 
> The saved remain the saved.
> What can a man do except rejoice?
> If it's all in God's hands...are those hands open?
> Or closed?
> 
> Let each man speak according to his faith.




Thank You Lord, How sweet it is


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## hawglips

farmasis said:


> Example?



I don't see any reason to pick and choose.  My suggestion would be to try to do ALL of the things Christ has asked of us, and not pick only one and discard the rest.

Here are some of them.

"He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..."

"...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." 

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me."

"...he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. "


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## Diogenes

Yikes.  You mean, really, that folks ought to do ALL of it?

“Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.”

“Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place.”

“Of making many books there is no end.”

“They will pick up serpents.”

“If anyone thirst, let him come to me and drink.” (Ew.)

“If a man begets a hundred children . . . “

“He that is eight days old among you shall be circumcised.”

“Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

“But to this day the Lord has not given you a mind to understand, or eyes to see, or ears to hear.”

“Ye shall not round the corners of your head.”

“Of them you may eat: the locust according to its kind . . . “

“For the woman who has a husband is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives.”

“Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back.”

“For a Testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.”

“Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you!”

“But rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings . . .”

“ . . . the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh . . . “

“I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you.”

This is sort of fun . . . in the spirit of having to do ALL of it . . . 

Anyone else have any favorites?


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## hawglips

Diogenes said:


> Yikes.  You mean, really, that folks ought to do ALL of it?



All of the Law of Moses?  No.  It's been fulfilled in Christ.

All the things Christ said were necessary for eternal life? 

Yes.

Not pick and choose just one or two.


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## willie

Ronnie T said:


> I doubt that it is simple to believe in Christ.
> It is simple for someone to 'say' they believe in Christ.... Not so simple to to make it more than just words.
> 
> Revelation 3:5
> ' He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.



Naaman thought it was too simple to wash in the muddy river Jordan,  but that was all he was asked to do.  I reckon that's what makes it so difficult to accept.
(2 Kings ch. 5  v.10-13)

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves"  (ephesians ch. 2  v. 8)

"there is none that is righteous, no not one"            (Romans ch. 3 v. 10)

"... but the gift of God is eternal life"          
(Romans ch. 6 v. 23)

I don't believe there is anything that we can do for salvation that Jesus hasn't already done for us, except for the accepting (of the gift).  That is a gift you can't work off or pay back.   Just believe that he "washed us from our sins in his own blood"(Rev. ch. 1 v. 5)

I understand that faith without works is dead, but what are "works"?  I think Gal. ch 5 v. 22, and                                1 Corinthians ch.13 v. 13  are good examples.


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