# Interesting and well written...



## BarnesAddict (Jun 27, 2017)

MUZZLE BLASTS, July 2017
Muzzleloading Afield

THE QUESTION OF IN-LINES,  Written by: Al Raychard

We’re going to take a break from our normal hunting related topic this month and address an issue that seems to have spawned controversy within the NMLRA.  A great deal has been said about in-lines in these pages recently, and as a supporter of the NMLRA, a contributor to this magazine for nearly three decades, and as an in-line user since they arrived on the scene back in the early 1980’s, I thought I would toss in my two cents worth.

Not everyone will agree with what I have to say, but hopefully it will provide some food for serious thoughts because, as the saying goes, a house divided cannot stand, which seems to be where we’re headed, and as MB Editor Lee Larkin has recently written, this association could pass out of existence unless membership numbers change.  If you don’t believe that, perhaps you will recall the total membership back in the 1970’s.  I don’t remember the exact number of members back then, but I’m willing to bet a dollar it was much, much higher than it is now by maybe as much as 10,000 members.  That in itself should give us all a reason for concern.  It is not that interest in muzzleloading has declined in recent years, in fact it has never been more popular, but rather the interest of today’s younger muzzleloader enthusiasts has changed, particularly when it comes to hunting.

Keep in mind, I speak as a hunter, but I am typical of that change.  I punch paper maybe once or twice each fall before hitting the woods just to make sure my rifle is sighted in.  Although I love the history of muzzleloading on this continent, I don’t participate in reenactments or rendezvous or participate in shooting matches.  I don’t have any issues with these passions, in fact I have all the respect in the world for those who partake and keep that history alive, but it is not my cup of tea.  I dare say today the majority of muzzleloading enthusiasts own an in-line, when you boil it all down, to increased hunting opportunity and to put meat on the table.

While the overall number of U.S. hunters has been declining over the past decade, by 5-to 6-percent in some states, and, as has been pointed out in these pages, the average age of NMLRA membership is about 70 years young.  Unless we attract the younger generations, a generation that overwhelmingly owns, shoots and hunts with in-lines, and in general prefers an in-line over a more traditional design, membership will continue to decline.  There is no other way to replace those lost.  The question is, do we let the ship go down, or do we do what is necessary to save it even though we may not like it?

The interesting thing is, as overall hunting numbers in this country have been on the decline the past decade, the number of hunters using muzzleloaders is one of the few bright spots within the industry.  According to several references there are some four million hunters in this country that hunt with a muzzleloader, and those same references indicate about 90 percent of them hunt with an in-line.
Rather factually correct or not, when it comes to hunting game the vast majority of hunters these days, young as well as old, choose to carry an in-line to hunt with.  And when hunters new to the fold shop for a muzzleloader, when given the choice between a percussion, a flintlock, or an in-line, the vast majority will opt for the in-line.  We could discuss the various reasons for this all day long, but the reasons don’t really matter.  Facts are facts.  Whether we want to accept or admit it or not, the younger generation of muzzleloading enthusiasts that this organization needs to attract have a different interest, a different interpretation of what muzzleloading is, and it overwhelmingly includes the in-line.  We may not like it but we can accept them and grow, or stick to our guns, reject them and fade into history like the mountain men of old.

Among the reasons I hunt with an in-line is the opportunity to extend my hunting season.  In the late 1970’s and early 1980’s few states offered a specific muzzleloader season despite the fact that muzzleloaders had been around for generations.  It wasn’t until the mid-1980’s and especially in the 90’s when in-lines were selling like hot cakes as state after state put a season restricted to muzzleloaders in place.  Today, forty-nine states offer at least one muzzleloader season, generally for deer, but in some jurisdictions for elk and other game as well.  Montana remains the only holdout and there are calls for a muzzleloader season there.   And it’s all thanks to the in-line, which is recognized in those forty-nine states as a muzzleloader.

So when you head to the woods this fall during muzzleloading season regardless of the ignition system your rifle has, just remember the odds that are that special time and added opportunity wouldn’t be available were it not for the modern muzzleloader.  And overall, the interest in muzzleloader hunting wouldn’t be as popular as it is without the in-line.  This doesn’t mean that you have to like in-lines or use one, but it is a reminder of where the primary interest in muzzleloading rests today.

The bottom line is, whether in-line users are welcome into this organization isn’t necessarily about change or forgetting our past, but it’s more about acceptance.  There is room for all muzzleloaders, we can welcome them all and still hold onto the rich history of muzzleloading.  My premise is rather simple: If it loads from the muzzle and ignites with a #11 ap, flint or a 209 primer – it is a muzzleloader.  Bottom line is the future of this organization is in our hands.  We can accept or reject in-lines, but one thing is certain: the inline muzzleloader is here to stay.  Hopefully the NMLRA is as well.


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## Jeff Raines (Jun 27, 2017)

Don't know why most folks think in line muzzle loaders are something new.It was invented in 1808.


IN-LINES
A plethora of designs for use with the new percussion principle appeared in the early 1800’s. The Swiss genius Pauley invented the paper cap, then invented a percussion muzzleloader in 1808 and breech-loader in 1812. His 1808 patent was the first for a muzzleloading in-line action in which the cock of the sidelock was replaced by a cylindrical hammer driven by a coil spring.
His in-line invention was capitalized on by Dreyse, who worked for Pauly between 1808-14 and who used it as the basis for his 1838 turnbolt design which became the Prussian Needlegun of 1848.
Paul Mauser later used the Dreyse needlegun design as a basis for his tumbolt cartridge rifle of 1868, first patented in the U.S., but adopted by the German military in 1871.


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## NCHillbilly (Jun 27, 2017)

Jeff Raines said:


> Don't know why most folks think in line muzzle loaders are something new.It was invented in 1808.
> 
> 
> IN-LINES
> ...



Seems as though it didn't catch on, though. And I kind of doubt if he had a scope on it and was shooting pellets and half-plastic projectiles in it. 

I guess the main difference between people who have been shooting muzzleloaders all their lives, and the folks who buy an inline is in the love of it. Most trad muzzleloader types shoot muzzleloaders because they love the history, tradition, and challenge of it. Most of them hunt with and shoot their smokepoles year-round. 

Most of the folks who gravitate to inlines hate everything about muzzleloaders that make them what they are. They hate measuring powder, cleaning them, using open sights, and aren't really interested in shooting them beyond the fact of getting an extra week of deer season. They want it to be made as easy as possible, and want every shortcut that will make it as much as possible like their centerfire rifle. 

The other crowd loves a muzzleloader precisely because it is not anything like a modern centerfire rifle, and because it's not easy. They like tinkering with them, and love all the details and challenges. And a piece of plastic with a scope on it just doesn't feel like a muzzleloader. A full-stock Lancaster flintlock, for example, has a soul. It is a work of art, handmade with pride. You have to get to know its personality before it will perform for you. You have a relationship with it. It works from earth magic-steel, stone, fire, and organic powder made from volcanic remnants, wood, and minerals.

The inline is a piece of plastic with a barrel on it. It is mass-produced. It is basically a centerfire rifle that you load from the front. There is a big difference in the two, and in the folks who shoot them. No one is right or wrong, but you have two vastly different types of people, mindsets, and weapons, and the two generally don't mix. Kind of like folks who like to play music on a banjo, and people who like to use a synthesizer.


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## BarnesAddict (Jun 27, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> ............I guess the main difference between people who have been shooting muzzleloaders all their lives, and the folks who buy an inline is in the love of it. Most trad muzzleloader types shoot muzzleloaders because they love the history, tradition, and challenge of it. Most of them hunt with and shoot their smokepoles year-round.
> 
> Most of the folks who gravitate to inlines hate everything about muzzleloaders that make them what they are. They hate measuring powder, cleaning them, using open sights, and aren't really interested in shooting them beyond the fact of getting an extra week of deer season. They want it to be made as easy as possible, and want every shortcut that will make it as much as possible like their centerfire rifle...............



Have to say that I'm not totally in agreement.  Especially the "hate everything" part.
I've owned and been shoot'n muzzleloaders since 1973, which my first then was an inline.  Older gents will know the rifle I'm talking about. 
I actually switched shortly from that inline to a percussion and still own percussion and modern inlines.  I don't have a single bit of an issue measuring propellant, rather its Swiss, Goex, T7 or BH209.  Nor do I have any issues cleaning any one of my rifles.  Never found it to be an issue, maybe because I was brought up with firearms and learned to clean them before starting school.  I actually find it fun.  Makes no difference to me, just the given day for what I decide to shoot.  I will admit though, I love shooting my modern inline.


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## transfixer (Jun 27, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> Seems as though it didn't catch on, though. And I kind of doubt if he had a scope on it and was shooting pellets and half-plastic projectiles in it.
> 
> I guess the main difference between people who have been shooting muzzleloaders all their lives, and the folks who buy an inline is in the love of it. Most trad muzzleloader types shoot muzzleloaders because they love the history, tradition, and challenge of it. Most of them hunt with and shoot their smokepoles year-round.
> 
> ...



 Very well said !     I bought a hawken 50cal many years ago because I wanted to add a little more challenge to my hunting,  I guess in some way I wanted to go back to my childhood pretending to be Daniel Boone roaming the woods with a smokepole,  I still refuse to use the pellets and such even though FF is sometimes hard to find. I've taken a few deer with it, and hope to take more. And I still use the iron sights !  lol


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## NCHillbilly (Jun 28, 2017)

BarnesAddict said:


> Have to say that I'm not totally in agreement.  Especially the "hate everything" part.
> I've owned and been shoot'n muzzleloaders since 1973, which my first then was an inline.  Older gents will know the rifle I'm talking about.
> I actually switched shortly from that inline to a percussion and still own percussion and modern inlines.  I don't have a single bit of an issue measuring propellant, rather its Swiss, Goex, T7 or BH209.  Nor do I have any issues cleaning any one of my rifles.  Never found it to be an issue, maybe because I was brought up with firearms and learned to clean them before starting school.  I actually find it fun.  Makes no difference to me, just the given day for what I decide to shoot.  I will admit though, I love shooting my modern inline.



Of course, not everybody is the same. Notice I said "most of the folks."  But you would have to agree having said that, that you don't fit the mold of 90% of folks I know who shoot inlines.


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## BarnesAddict (Jun 28, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> Of course, not everybody is the same. Notice I said "most of the folks."  But you would have to agree having said that, that you don't fit the mold of 90% of folks I know who shoot inlines.



I'll admit this, 90% of my friends say I'm not right  LOL.


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## TJay (Jun 28, 2017)

I was against allowing scopes on muzzleloaders.  To my way of thinking having to use the irons was like a great equalizer.  Whether you had a modern inline or a traditional type of sidelock you were pretty much limited to the same range that was dictated by how good your eyesight was.  The addition of a telescopic sight makes many inlines the equivalent of a single shot rifle.  I don't think scopes on ML's are a terrible idea but I regret not having a season where shooting open sights was the rule.  When I was a kid scopes were just about unheard of.  You had to learn how to shoot and adjust irons sights and that was just one of the aspects of learning to shoot.  I guess it just bothers me that a lot of kids get their first rifle and it has a scope on it and they just bypass the whole open sight experience.  Just my .02.


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## transfixer (Jun 28, 2017)

TJay said:


> When I was a kid scopes were just about unheard of.  You had to learn how to shoot and adjust irons sights and that was just one of the aspects of learning to shoot.  I guess it just bothers me that a lot of kids get their first rifle and it has a scope on it and they just bypass the whole open sight experience.  Just my .02.



     You bring up a good point ,,,  technology has its good and bad effects,  probably 90% or better of todays young people couldn't drive a vehicle with a manual transmission if their life depended on it.  If they learn how to shoot with a scope or a red dot sight, they are going to have hard time with iron sights. 

    They really should change the name of the Primitive weapons season to something else,    an inline using shotgun primers and a scope isn't what most people would call "primitive"  I don't believe!


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## Rich M (Jun 28, 2017)

The kids learn what the parents teach them - it really is that simple.

Who cares what they call ML/primitive weapon season?  Many states have expanded it into straight walled rifle & pistol cartridges - I don't write the rules but like them.


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## Darkhorse (Jun 28, 2017)

I've never owned an inline. Never even shot one. They just do nothing for me and I wouldn't miss them if they all just suddenly vanished. It is my right to feel this way.
I do own a number of centerfires as they can be useful.
I started off with a caplock back in the 70's then a few years later a flintlock. Today I only have flintlocks that I built. I like to tinker with guns and have fine tuned my locks and loads so these rifles really shoot good.
I don't need a inline to extend my season. I bought my first caplock for that. And today I hunt basically all season with a flintlock. I don't think a scoped inline that will kill a deer at 2 or 300 yards has any buisness being in the field during PW hunts along with side hammer and underhammer rifles.
Just one person's opinion, feel free to trample it like most usually do.


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## GregoryB. (Jun 28, 2017)

I purchased my first inline to use during regular gun season instead of a shotgun on Military Bases. I still use my sidekick on a regular basis throughout the year but as I get older that scope sure gets easier to use.


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## Jeff Raines (Jun 28, 2017)

Ain't it great to have a choice?.....You are not forced to purchase a specific type of muzzle loader,you can even hunt with it throughout the rifle season !! Awesome!


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## BarnesAddict (Jun 28, 2017)

Darkhorse said:


> ............I started off with a caplock back in the 70's then a few years later a flintlock. Today I only have flintlocks that I built. I like to tinker with guns and have fine tuned my locks and loads so these rifles really shoot good...............



Not trampling...........

There's a huge difference between our age group (you & me) and the youngsters.
We know how to fix things, be it a lock, sear, or even sharpen a lawn mower blade or change the oil and filter.
Times are a'changing.  Guys like us are now the minority.


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## Rich M (Jun 29, 2017)

Typical writer - He could extend his season with a flintlock...but instead "correct or not" uses an inline.    Why?  Probably the same reason most folks buy inlines...

I don't ML hunt to fantasize about being a mountain man or civil war hero, just to shoot deer.  Some folks use MLs as a hobby and enjoy them - nothing wrong with that iff'n that's what they like.

My inline ML is over 40 yrs old and is made of steel & wood.  Not all of them are plastic.

Some folks are lamenting about today's youths and what  they can & can't do.  The focus should be on the parents.  Kids learn what the parent teach them - or have them taught.  TEACH A KID SOMETHING!


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## jbogg (Jul 1, 2017)

I have a buddy who is a gun nut.  He loves all things gun and shoots competitively year round. He is over 50 yrs old but has never hunted a day in his life.  I am the opposite, never been into acquiring guns or even shooting much more that just to stay proficient.  My passion has always been hunting, not shooting.  I was late to the party, not hunting until my mid twenties.  I'll be 54 in two months.  I grew up in the suburbs, and I never knew of anyone that hunted when I was growing up.  I just knew it was something I had to do.  Shortly after I got married I went down to the local Kmart in the small town we were living in at the time and purchased a Marlin3030.  The next year I went back to the same store and bought the only shotgun Ive' ever owned, a Remmington 870 Express.  Back then there were no hunting shows or you tube videos to learn from.  I stumbled around the woods for a few years on my own making plenty of mistakes as I taught myself how to shoot and hunt.  Bought my first bow from a pawn shop around 1989.

Fast forward 30 years and now I am starting all over again while learning how to hunt public ground in the North GA mountains.  The deer are few and far between, but the hogs are a plenty.  Like the guy said, when all the wild game is gone then I will hunt mice.  I just love to hunt.  So to take advantage of my new quarry I purchased an entry level CVA Wolf scope combo with a plastic stock, 50 grn pellets, and Barnes sabboted bullets.  Lots of plastic!   It's opened a whole new world of hunting.  I had an awesome winter and spring chasing hogs during small game and turkey season. 

I didn't purchase that gun in an attempt to take the easy way.  Rather, I wanted to spend my limited time in the woods, not at the range.  At the end of the day I would like to think that most of us are out there for similar reasons.  I don't care in the least what weapon someone prefers to hunt with.  If you respect the game, and love being out there you would be welcome to pull up a chair around my fire.  

Finally, don't knock a good synthesizer.  My Electric Light Orchestra albums stacked nicely on my old Technics turntable right next to my favorite Willie Nelson records.


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## transfixer (Jul 2, 2017)

Very nicely said Jbogg !   I'm only a couple years older than you, I consider myself fortunate that my dad was a hunter, even though we lived in the suburbs, I had relatives in the country and opportunities to hunt at a young age. From the time I was 16 till I was in my mid-forties I was in the woods virtually every weekend of deer season, still hunt at least every other weekend. I'm a combination of you and your friend,  I've been called a gun nut by my friends,  and have shot/ still try to shoot quite often, just to keep my edge,  both rifles and handguns, I've always been drawn to the flintlock/percussion style muzzleloaders , ever since I was a kid,  just like I've always been drawn to the Colt Peacemaker style sixguns,  I find the older I get the more nostalgic I have become,  I bought a traditional longbow last year, haven't bowhunted since I got rid of my compound over 10yrs ago.  Two guns on my bucket list in the near future are a 45lc single action Colt clone,  and a Sharps 1874, probably in 45-70,  unless I can get comfortable loading black powder cartridges,, lol    I'm hoping to put a hog down with the longbow this year, as we have them on our lease, and when I acquire the other two on my list, I'll try to harvest a deer or hog with each.  I just enjoy being in the woods, sitting around a campfire, and enjoy the hunt,   the kill is secondary.  I've always said,  the work starts after you pull the trigger.


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## NCHillbilly (Jul 2, 2017)

jbogg said:


> I have a buddy who is a gun nut.  He loves all things gun and shoots competitively year round. He is over 50 yrs old but has never hunted a day in his life.  I am the opposite, never been into acquiring guns or even shooting much more that just to stay proficient.  My passion has always been hunting, not shooting.  I was late to the party, not hunting until my mid twenties.  I'll be 54 in two months.  I grew up in the suburbs, and I never knew of anyone that hunted when I was growing up.  I just knew it was something I had to do.  Shortly after I got married I went down to the local Kmart in the small town we were living in at the time and purchased a Marlin3030.  The next year I went back to the same store and bought the only shotgun Ive' ever owned, a Remmington 870 Express.  Back then there were no hunting shows or you tube videos to learn from.  I stumbled around the woods for a few years on my own making plenty of mistakes as I taught myself how to shoot and hunt.  Bought my first bow from a pawn shop around 1989.
> 
> Fast forward 30 years and now I am starting all over again while learning how to hunt public ground in the North GA mountains.  The deer are few and far between, but the hogs are a plenty.  Like the guy said, when all the wild game is gone then I will hunt mice.  I just love to hunt.  So to take advantage of my new quarry I purchased an entry level CVA Wolf scope combo with a plastic stock, 50 grn pellets, and Barnes sabboted bullets.  Lots of plastic!   It's opened a whole new world of hunting.  I had an awesome winter and spring chasing hogs during small game and turkey season.
> 
> ...



Not knocking them, I even have friends that hunt with them.  They are good rifles, and yours is the typical story of an inline shooter. There is not a thing wrong with that. Hand me yours and I'll shoot a hog with it, too. 

The context of the OP though, is the issue of inline shooters trying to take over or get equal billing in the NMLRA. I can understand the friction. The NMLRA has been around for a whole lot longer than inline rifles have been readily available or in common use. It has always been a hardcore trad muzzleloader association, and has always been active in sponsoring and holding Mountain Man rendezvous, traditional muzzleloader shoots, and suchlike. It was formed and operated for decades mostly as a "buckskinner" club, and the membership has always been of the type that love blackpowder and all the stuff that goes with it. Many are the type who wear braintanned buckskin, and don't use or wear anything that would have not been in existence before 1830, and are serious about living history. I don't really know why an inline shooter would be interested in membership to begin with, but if they do, I do feel they should respect the history and goals of the organization instead of trying to change it. Kind of like compound or crossbow shooters joining a recurve/longbow archery club and trying to change the mindset of the original members.

Not knocking synthesizers, either. I'm more of a stringed instrument guy, but I've got NIN and Ministry on my mp3 player next to the Ralph Stanley, and a couple old ELO vinyl 33s in the cabinet, to boot.


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## jbogg (Jul 2, 2017)

Well said hillbilly.  I now realize you weren't knocking inlines, but rather speaking  specifically about the NMLRA memberships.  I get your point now, and for the most part agree.  Just because my vehicle has four wheels doesn't mean I qualify to join the classic car club that meets at the ingles parking lot every month. Including modern inlines to the NMLRA may boost membership, but the club may survive in name only as older members pass on and take their old way with them.  On the other hand there may be a lot of folks like me that were never exposed to traditional MLs and might develop an interest if given the opportunity.  I can see both sides of the argument.


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## jbogg (Jul 2, 2017)

transfixer said:


> Very nicely said Jbogg !   I'm only a couple years older than you, I consider myself fortunate that my dad was a hunter, even though we lived in the suburbs, I had relatives in the country and opportunities to hunt at a young age. From the time I was 16 till I was in my mid-forties I was in the woods virtually every weekend of deer season, still hunt at least every other weekend. I'm a combination of you and your friend,  I've been called a gun nut by my friends,  and have shot/ still try to shoot quite often, just to keep my edge,  both rifles and handguns, I've always been drawn to the flintlock/percussion style muzzleloaders , ever since I was a kid,  just like I've always been drawn to the Colt Peacemaker style sixguns,  I find the older I get the more nostalgic I have become,  I bought a traditional longbow last year, haven't bowhunted since I got rid of my compound over 10yrs ago.  Two guns on my bucket list in the near future are a 45lc single action Colt clone,  and a Sharps 1874, probably in 45-70,  unless I can get comfortable loading black powder cartridges,, lol    I'm hoping to put a hog down with the longbow this year, as we have them on our lease, and when I acquire the other two on my list, I'll try to harvest a deer or hog with each.  I just enjoy being in the woods, sitting around a campfire, and enjoy the hunt,   the kill is secondary.  I've always said,  the work starts after you pull the trigger.



I know what you mean.  When I was younger I was all about filling my tags.  It was almost a competition.  I guess I have come full circle.  While I still enjoy a successful hunt, that success does not determine my enjoyment of the hunt.  I had a hunting buddy who would be absolutely miserable if he didn't get "his deer".  He was so wrapped up in the kill he missed everything else that makes a hunt special.  (We no longer hunt together)  These days I enjoy scouting as much if not more than pulling the trigger.  I just started hunting the mountains, but I am honestly not sure how much longer I will physically be able to do it.  I suspect that with every year that passes I will stay closer and closer to the truck.  Did not mean to derail the thread, but Oh well...


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## BarnesAddict (Jul 2, 2017)

jbogg said:


> ............ Including modern inlines to the NMLRA may boost membership, but the club may survive in name only as older members pass on and take their old way with them.  On the other hand there may be a lot of folks like me that were never exposed to traditional MLs and might develop an interest if given the opportunity.  I can see both sides of the argument.



I agree with the above.  The average member age in the NMLRA is now 70 years young.  Its quite evident by the numbers of letters to the editor, membership has dropped dramatically, especially since the 70's.
Here's my take on it, right or wrong...........
Traditionalists are hard headed as a rock, and they want nothing to do with anything "modern", especially modern inline rifles.  However its quite the opposite for the new shooters of modern inline rifles.  They are very interested in the traditional rifles in general.  Expose them to traditional rifles and they may end up purchasing one.  Many of the young guys aren't as financially well off as some of us older gents.  However, one day hopefully they will.


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## NCHillbilly (Jul 2, 2017)

jbogg said:


> Well said hillbilly.  I now realize you weren't knocking inlines, but rather speaking  specifically about the NMLRA memberships.  I get your point now, and for the most part agree.  Just because my vehicle has four wheels doesn't mean I qualify to join the classic car club that meets at the ingles parking lot every month. Including modern inlines to the NMLRA may boost membership, but the club may survive in name only as older members pass on and take their old way with them.  On the other hand there may be a lot of folks like me that were never exposed to traditional MLs and might develop an interest if given the opportunity.  I can see both sides of the argument.



Yep. Personally, I love shooting and hunting with caplocks and flintlocks. I have no interest in owning or hunting with an inline. I have no resentment for those who do, though. But, I also deer hunt sometimes with an AR-15, and many folks have the same opinion of them that I do about inline muzzleloaders.


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## Muldoon (Jul 2, 2017)

There are two classifications:

Modern

Traditional

I'll stick with the Traditional! I know how to use blackpowder!

If the 'Inlines' are let into what hereto before has been TRADITIONAL MUZZLELOADING matches, etc. it will go the same way that what has befallen shooting of the National Match Course which was the mainstay of NRA HP shooting for over 100 years! When the NRA adopted into the rules F Class shooting which allowed scopes, bipods, front/rear rest the competitor force of across the course shooting has dropped off probably over 60% or more! This was done under the premise that it would allow the older shooters a chance to keep shooting! Service Rifle competitors have dropped off at an alarming rate as a result thereof! The younger generation of 'millennials' likes doing things the easy way and since that group of the population doesn't generally know squat about how to use standard barrel sights.....it's their accepted way to go the scope route! And basically the really 'red...' thing about all of this is because of the chase of the almighty dollar to keep $$$$ rolling into whatever organization that has thought of '*******izing' it's former rules! As far as this old boy is concerned the NMLRA is going to cut it's own throat!!

Rant over!!!!!!!!!!


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## lampern (Jul 10, 2017)

Its interesting that some states are now allowing straight walled cartridges in seasons that used to be for muzzleloaders only.


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## Nicodemus (Jul 10, 2017)

lampern said:


> Its interesting that some states are now allowing straight walled cartridges in seasons that used to be for muzzleloaders only.





No, it`s stupid and a cheap and lazy way out.


If a weapon has fiberglass, iron, or steel on it, it`s not primitive. Not even my beloved traditional muzzleloaders and bows.

Primitive weapons are made of wood, stone, bone, antler, ivory, horn, shell.


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## NCHillbilly (Jul 10, 2017)

Nicodemus said:


> No, it`s stupid and a cheap and lazy way out.
> 
> 
> If a weapon has fiberglass, iron, or steel on it, it`s not primitive. Not even my beloved traditional muzzleloaders and bows.
> ...



But, Nic-you know it puts undue hardship on the poor people if they have to pour powder and a bullet down the barrel of a gun, and can't shoot deer at 200 yards. That's just barbaric during muzzleloader season.


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## ripplerider (Jul 11, 2017)

I wish I could still hunt with my New Englander I love the way it carries. Unfortunately I can no longer see through open sights well enough to hunt with it. A few years ago I was offered a no-brainer deal on a Traditions Pursuit with several boxes of Hornady sabots, shotgun primers and some Buckhorn 209 powder all for the staggering price of $100! couldnt pass it up. Put a fixed 4 power scope on it. I've killed quite a few deer with it and a bear. The trigger pull is not great even after a trigger job. I'd like to find a peep sight for my New Englander and start using it again. Dad has a Cherokee .45 caliber that is light as a feather maybe I'll trade him out of it and re-sight it. I bet it doesnt weigh 5 lbs. I love measuring out powder I've never used pellets I hear their a little harder to ignite. I've never had a failure to fire with any of my muzzleloaders knock on wood.


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## Gbr5pb (Jul 11, 2017)

I had too many of those things go snap with a good deer standing there! Like the kaboom of a 209 primer and old eyes like a scope! To each his own though


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## NCHillbilly (Jul 11, 2017)

Gbr5pb said:


> I had too many of those things go snap with a good deer standing there! Like the kaboom of a 209 primer and old eyes like a scope! To each his own though



Learning how to operate it solves that problem. An inline is absolutely no more dependable than a sidelock, they just require different strategies. And you have to know your rifle. I have never had mine go snap on a deer after learning how to use it, even hunting in pouring rain; except for once when I had a dud cap with no pop stuff in it. 

I have had my sidelock go off in pouring rain more than once when my buddy's inline with 209s wouldn't-it's all about how you handle it.


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## Darkhorse (Jul 12, 2017)

NCHillbilly said:


> Learning how to operate it solves that problem. An inline is absolutely no more dependable than a sidelock, they just require different strategies. And you have to know your rifle. I have never had mine go snap on a deer after learning how to use it, even hunting in pouring rain; except for once when I had a dud cap with no pop stuff in it.
> 
> I have had my sidelock go off in pouring rain more than once when my buddy's inline with 209s wouldn't-it's all about how you handle it.



"You have to know your rifle." Best quote of the year in my opinion.
I consider my flintlocks to be more dependable than my old caplock and it was one of the good ones.
I literally can't remember the last time one of them failed to go off. But I do remember others in the past that did sometimes fail to fire. The difference is the time spent shooting and learning how to really shoot a flintlock and how to make it better.
Both of my rifles were built by me over 10 years ago. This year I did a super slick lock tune on each one and added simple peep sights to help my aging eyes. There are a number of small things that improve the performance of the old flintlock.
Here's a couple of little things you can do, after you oil your bore turn the rifle upside down for a week or so then back rightside up. Make this a process. All the oil eventually runs down and can contaminate both touchhole and flash channel. Sometimes you can see the oil through the touchhole.
Don't over lubricate the lock internals. This oil also migrates and some of it ends up in the pan and between the bolster and barrel. If a lock is properly tuned you don't need oil on the lockplate in the first place. I use a little grease where the mainspring contacts the tumbler. Also a little grease where the sear spring contacts the sear. And a touch more where the frizzen nose contacts the frizzen spring.
I coat the round part of the tumbler where it goes through the lockplate with a thin layer of grease also.
Using a q tip I dip it in oil, I use Delco synthetic for this, and just touch the notches in the tumbler.
And that's all my flinters need.
Before any deer hunt I remove the lock and wipe off any oil from the lockplate and bolster with alcohol and patch. I do the same thing for the pan, the flint (bottom especially), the underside of the frizzen and the face of the frizzen. Point is to remove any oil that might possibly cause a misfire.
Following these simple steps will decrease and maybe eliminate those misfires.


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## Gbr5pb (Jul 12, 2017)

Yep but my muzzleloader started as a broke 18 year old with a cheap cva kit that we never quite got put together right! And my friend sighting his in with truck headlights were we could go on altoona and blue ridge hunts back in the 80s like y'all professional hunters! We didn't hurt much but we had fun!


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## NCHillbilly (Jul 12, 2017)

Gbr5pb said:


> Yep but my muzzleloader started as a broke 18 year old with a cheap cva kit that we never quite got put together right! And my friend sighting his in with truck headlights were we could go on altoona and blue ridge hunts back in the 80s like y'all professional hunters! We didn't hurt much but we had fun!



Sounds like the way I started with blackpowder!  Those were the days, weren't they? And I'm about as far from a professional hunter as you can get.


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## Muldoon (Jul 12, 2017)

You only learn as much from a rifle.....as the time you're willing to spend with it!


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## lampern (Jul 14, 2017)

Nicodemus said:


> No, it`s stupid and a cheap and lazy way out.
> 
> 
> If a weapon has fiberglass, iron, or steel on it, it`s not primitive. Not even my beloved traditional muzzleloaders and bows.
> ...



Actually I see no reason for any kind of primitive or muzzleloading seasons any more.

But thats just me.

Heck in GA kids can use any legal weapon while adults are restricted to bows and muzzleloaders.


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