# Washed by the blood. Enough?



## gordon 2

When I hear the words washed by the blood I am reminded of the beautiful song...Are you washed by the blood of the lamb. But also revelations 22:14
_Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they  may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city._

Now do we have a bit of work to do?  This bit of scripture does not say to the Blessed your robe is going to be washed for you, it says the Blessed are those who wash their robes, that is to say the Blessed are those that do a little scrubbing or a lot depending the the need.


Now who do the Blessed wash them for? Do the Blessed was them to be presentable to the Lord, because their works will be judged as 22: 12 says? Or in other words is the work of washing a personal thing or personal gain or personal reward?

Are saints servants should be a rethorical question. Or the gospels, the very words of our Christ and Lord should be clear on the question.

 Again, the washing is so that the Blessed my have the right to the tree of life according to 22:14. Now what is the purpose of the tree of life?

The purpose of the tree of life is according to Revelations 22:2 "for the healing of the nations." So by this we can see that the washing is not for ourselves, for our gain alone, though a gain it may be. The washing is so that we may serve, from the perspective of the tree of life, the nations. Now as much as we are part of nations we are serving ourselves, but the purpose is to serve others inside and outside our nation, in the light of the tree of life.

Now the tree of life we are told in Revelations is  in a new  city, the New Jeruselm who's light is Christ our Lord, a new city from a new heaven and earth.

Now for the blood of our Lord, for the life given as sacrafice, we  are forgiven our transgessions and we are well prepared to say  that we are for it "born again" the words dear and clear on this  in the gospel. But, is this enough?

Being born does a child need yet washing? Yes, and we yet need new robes and someone needs to do some washing?

 So being born-again by the very plain words of scripture we need yet to do a little washing. The soap and the new linens are perhaps the ministry of Christ, the gospel of the Kingdom, viewed from the grace of the Holy Spirit. From that view it is not only an endeavor, or works for personal reward, but our duty as servants to all the nations or to each other in the light of the Holy Spirit. This is what shows us up as christians.

The Spirit and the bride say "Come". (Rev.22:17)

Now any ideas what the soap might be? Is the blood enough? Is there phosphates in the ministry of Christ and in the light of the Holy Spirit He sent the Blessed?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Say you?

Now what is the cleanliness standard? Revelations 22:27 And nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying , shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Now in the Lamb's book of life, in the gospels do you see yourselves? Can you put your own name in as a deciple or a friend?  Do we wash ourselves with the good news, with justice and grace for the gift of an new life? Mature in this light?

Say you? Walk you? Walk me? My nation, your nation, our nations? The Spirit and the bride say "Come". (Rev.22:17)


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## jdrawdy

Just a thought, Ephisians 2:8-9 says "for by grace are you saved Through faith and that not of yourself it is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.". Works are a result, not a requirement


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## gordon 2

jdrawdy said:


> Just a thought, Ephisians 2:8-9 says "for by grace are you saved Through faith and that not of yourself it is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.". Works are a result, not a requirement



I agree completely. The cross, the Good News and the Holy Spirit are all gifts from God. What follows is not required--it is our choice.


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## BrowningFan

Just a thought ,by saying it's the Cross plus something(you have done "works") Then what you are really saying is Christ didn't do enough. From the beginning all God wanted was for man to have FAITH in him. But man always wants a program to follow. So God gave the Jews a program no one could follow to show them works can't equal faith. I say it's the Cross plus nothing ! You say?


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## Ronnie T

jdrawdy said:


> Just a thought, Ephisians 2:8-9 says "for by grace are you saved Through faith and that not of yourself it is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.". Works are a result, not a requirement



Could we as easily say that "A changed life centered on Christ are the results"..... "And good deeds will be expressed through that change".?


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## formula1

*Re:*

These are most amazing, correlating scriptures, that in my estimation, fits your thoughts.  And oh my friend, the work of the cleansing blood by faith through the Spirit is more than enough to wash those robes as white as snow.  May God continually build you up in Him until that Day.

Hebrews 9
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Hebrews 10:10
And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Romans 6:22
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

Titus 3
 4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Isaiah 4
2 In that day the branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall be the pride and honor of the survivors of Israel. 3  And he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy, everyone who has been recorded for life in Jerusalem, 4 when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. 5 Then the Lord will create over the whole site of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, and smoke and the shining of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory there will be a canopy. 6  There will be a booth for shade by day from the heat, and for a refuge and a shelter from the storm and rain.


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## StriperAddict

Gordon, thanks for another great post and questions. Along with what was said here, some of the thoughts on your older post "Saved by His life" go hand in hand here.  Grace and robes washed in Jesus blood do much to bring the redeemed into the path of our Lord.
I'll be checking this from time to time and might add a point or two later.


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## gordon 2

BrowningFan said:


> Just a thought ,by saying it's the Cross plus something(you have done "works") Then what you are really saying is Christ didn't do enough. From the beginning all God wanted was for man to have FAITH in him. But man always wants a program to follow. So God gave the Jews a program no one could follow to show them works can't equal faith. I say it's the Cross plus nothing ! You say?



I say the cross and by what is in your heart. Many will vow on the cross, ABBA, ABBA and know nothing... Perhaps?


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## gordon 2

formula1 said:


> These are most amazing, correlating scriptures, that in my estimation, fits your thoughts.  And oh my friend, the work of the cleansing blood by faith through the Spirit is more than enough to wash those robes as white as snow.  May God continually build you up in Him until that Day.
> 
> Hebrews 9
> 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
> 
> Hebrews 10:10
> And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
> 
> Hebrews 10:14
> For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
> 
> Romans 6:22
> But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.
> 
> Titus 3
> 4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 6:11
> And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
> 
> Isaiah 4
> 2 In that day the branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall be the pride and honor of the survivors of Israel. 3  And he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy, everyone who has been recorded for life in Jerusalem, 4 when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. 5 Then the Lord will create over the whole site of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, and smoke and the shining of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory there will be a canopy. 6  There will be a booth for shade by day from the heat, and for a refuge and a shelter from the storm and rain.



It is  perhaps hard to turn a container vessel on a dime...

"so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


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## gordon 2

BrowningFan said:


> Just a thought ,by saying it's the Cross plus something(you have done "works") Then what you are really saying is Christ didn't do enough. From the beginning all God wanted was for man to have FAITH in him. But man always wants a program to follow. So God gave the Jews a program no one could follow to show them works can't equal faith. I say it's the Cross plus nothing ! You say?



And this: The ministry of Christ was/is not only his cross. So Christ did more than enough. Jesus had a program, not man. This is why he preached on the Kingdom. And as far as I can tell, his Kingdom is not a program to follow as if a new law, except that it is a place from where one for the cross can live with other christians and people and nations in general.

Paul's waxing on love was poetry perhaps? I don't think so. I think he was wording the rules of a new road from the prompting of the Holy Spirit. And that road, that street, through the Holy Spirit had/has a tree of life, once again. And that tree of life had/has a purpose. It was/is a resource to the Beloved. These were not rules to fuel a program, not laws, but a demonstation of grace and how it could fuel the heart of believers and on to purposeful action.

Seeds, we can well chose where and if we are to root and there is no fruit if the vine, the graft, is not well rooted in.


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## Artfuldodger

If it's just the Cross and works don't matter, "once saved, always saved" is true. A real born again person doesn't sin anyway. Unless i'm reading the following verses wrong.
1 John 5:18
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


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## JB0704

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 John 3:9
> Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



Man, there could be some serious discussion on that one....


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## formula1

gordon 2 said:


> It is  perhaps hard to turn a container vessel on a dime...
> 
> "so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.



But the vessel turned on that dime in the mind of God.  Perhaps what we choose to see blinds us from what is true and therein is where the 'might' still dwells!  Yet He did promise, didn't He!


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## formula1

*Re:*



JB0704 said:


> Man, there could be some serious discussion on that one....



Perhaps more context would yield a better understanding, at least to some.

1 John 3
4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8  Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9  No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.


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## gordon 2

formula1 said:


> But the vessel turned on that dime in the mind of God.  Perhaps what we choose to see blinds us from what is true and therein is where the 'might' still dwells!  Yet He did promise, didn't He!



Perhaps it is so. But the vessel continued with free choice... and what the vessel had at the helm, yet had not the rudder.

This vessel analogy is...good on an unfoggy day. 





(FI...I need  your Holy Ghost Pentocostal side today, not your Baptist-Methodist one.  Like I'm thinking I'll go bird hunting today and having you along is great, but why did you have to bring your rifle?)


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## Artfuldodger

BrowningFan said:


> Just a thought ,by saying it's the Cross plus something(you have done "works") Then what you are really saying is Christ didn't do enough. From the beginning all God wanted was for man to have FAITH in him. But man always wants a program to follow. So God gave the Jews a program no one could follow to show them works can't equal faith. I say it's the Cross plus nothing ! You say?



Atonement and grace are God’s part in salvation, while faith is our part. Perhaps I could lose my faith eventually, later, down the road.


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Atonement and grace are God’s part in salvation, while faith is our part. Perhaps I could lose my faith eventually, later, down the road.



Now this is a very interesting way of sayin it in 24 words or less. I like.


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## BrowningFan

Artfuldodger said:


> If it's just the Cross and works don't matter, "once saved, always saved" is true. A real born again person doesn't sin anyway. Unless i'm reading the following verses wrong.
> 1 John 5:18
> King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
> We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
> 1 John 3:9
> Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



Yes .... Your Old man can sin but not possible for the New man to sin 1John 3:9 sums it up. Paul struggled and every born again child of God will struggle with the Old man he is born into sin.


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## BrowningFan

gordon 2 said:


> Now this is a very interesting way of sayin it in 24 words or less. I like.



Not if you have the faith of Christ. (Westcott and Hort  change OF to  IN .... big difference ) 

Gal 2:16  16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed IN Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."


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## Artfuldodger

BrowningFan said:


> Not if you have the faith of Christ. (Westcott and Hort  change OF to  IN .... big difference )
> 
> Gal 2:16  16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed IN Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."



Are you saying I have no part in my salvation and that once i am saved, I have no say so in not believing anymore?
I agree with the following quote:
Belief in, "once saved, always saved" may seem justified by John 10:27-29, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand". If this scripture proves, "once saved, always saved", the scriptures contradict each other, and this, of course, is an impossibility. To harmonize the scriptures (to make them agree, one with another), we must notice that Jesus did not say that his sheep could not leave of their own accord; He said that no man could pluck them away.


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## gordon 2

JB0704 said:


> Man, there could be some serious discussion on that one....



The serious tongue in the cheek...not doubt.


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## formula1

gordon 2 said:


> (FI...I need  your Holy Ghost Pentocostal side today, not your Baptist-Methodist one.  Like I'm thinking I'll go bird hunting today and having you along is great, but why did you have to bring your rifle?)



Funny!  And I thought I was in Spirit mode!

How about this!  The rudder of the ship is the slave to the one who turns the wheel.   The soap is the same in the hands of the one who washes the robes and makes them white as snow! When trust is realized, 'might' becomes absolutely, and always is. The question really is (this for the benefit of all) who do you trust to steer?

Only one Captain can lead you through treacherous, stormy, and dangerous waters. You shall wind up at golden shores in His hands. 

Oh, and that song blessed my soul!!!!

That's about as Pentecostal as I can get today.  God bless!


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## gordon 2

Ok. This must qualify as the last word on something that came up in this tread. (Litterally can't get much last word as this.)

Revelations 22:12

Behold I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Now if any would have issue with this, I strongly suggest a visit at possession check up church, just to see if something comes out.


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## gordon 2

formula1 said:


> Funny!  And I thought I was in Spirit mode!
> 
> How about this!  The rudder of the ship is the slave to the one who turns the wheel.   The soap is the same in the hands of the one who washes the robes and makes them white as snow! When trust is realized, 'might' becomes absolutely, and always is. The question really is (this for the benefit of all) who do you trust to steer?
> 
> Only one Captain can lead you through treacherous, stormy, and dangerous waters. You shall wind up at golden shores in His hands.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and that song blessed my soul!!!!
> 
> That's about as Pentecostal as I can get today.  God bless!





LOL peace bros.... I know you thought you were...


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## BrowningFan

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you saying I have no part in my salvation and that once i am saved, I have no say so in not believing anymore?
> I agree with the following quote:
> Belief in, "once saved, always saved" may seem justified by John 10:27-29, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand". If this scripture proves, "once saved, always saved", the scriptures contradict each other, and this, of course, is an impossibility. To harmonize the scriptures (to make them agree, one with another), we must notice that Jesus did not say that his sheep could not leave of their own accord; He said that no man could pluck them away.




All the Bible is written for you , but not all the Bible is written to you. Salvation is not the same for all Dispensations ,the OT is not same  as the Church , people in the Tribulation not the say as the Chruch, and Tribulation not the same as Millennium.


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## gordon 2

BrowningFan said:


> All the Bible is written for you , but not all the Bible is written to you. Salvation is not the same for all Dispensations ,the OT is not same  as the Church , people in the Tribulation not the say as the Chruch, and Tribulation not the same as Millennium.



I though that Dispensations stuff was from the days when people were taking pictures with gun powder?

Now this is seriously interesting. If salvation is not the same for all dispensations, does it mean that folk in no dispensation at all! totally unaware of it, still in the primival muck of dispensations,  the backward and the left behind, might have a window to salvation?  The off course? Yes! I just answered my own question. Did Jesus ever mention dispensations to anyone in particular?


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## BrowningFan

gordon 2 said:


> I though that Dispensations stuff was from the days when people were taking pictures with gun powder?
> 
> Now this is seriously interesting. If salvation is not the same for all dispensations, does it mean that folk in no dispensation at all! totally unaware of it, still in the primival muck of dispensations, might have a window to salvation? Off course. Yes! I just answered my own question.



Let me say it a different way In the OT is Faith and Works .... Church Age is Faith by Grace , Millenniun they will be with Christ so you don't need faith because he is physically here , same with Adam and Eve they were with God.


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## BrowningFan

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you saying I have no part in my salvation and that once i am saved, I have no say so in not believing anymore?
> I agree with the following quote:
> Belief in, "once saved, always saved" may seem justified by John 10:27-29, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand". If this scripture proves, "once saved, always saved", the scriptures contradict each other, and this, of course, is an impossibility. To harmonize the scriptures (to make them agree, one with another), we must notice that Jesus did not say that his sheep could not leave of their own accord; He said that no man could pluck them away.



Here is another way of looking at this ..... You have an earthly father " your dad" let's say he makes you mad and you don't ever want to talk to him again.You move away and never speak to him again. He is still your Earthly Father! You can never change that. When you become a child of God you now have a Heavenly Father same applies to him no matter what you do he is still your Father.


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## Artfuldodger

BrowningFan said:


> All the Bible is written for you , but not all the Bible is written to you. Salvation is not the same for all Dispensations ,the OT is not same  as the Church , people in the Tribulation not the say as the Chruch, and Tribulation not the same as Millennium.



Does that put about half the Bible aside that I can just read as reference and use the other half to abide by?


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## BrowningFan

Artfuldodger said:


> Does that put about half the Bible aside that I can just read as reference and use the other half to abide by?




No

2 Tim 3:16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Again all scripture is written to you but not for you. Example as a part of Salvation you are not required to kill Bulls and Goats , in the OT they did.


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## Ronnie T

BrowningFan said:


> Here is another way of looking at this ..... You have an earthly father " your dad" let's say he makes you mad and you don't ever want to talk to him again.You move away and never speak to him again. He is still your Earthly Father! You can never change that. When you become a child of God you now have a Heavenly Father same applies to him no matter what you do he is still your Father.



Jesus told of a Father and Son relationship.
The son, though blessed richly by his father, chose to leave his father and go forth into the world.  He left his father behind.
You remember the story.  Eventually the son realized the err of his way and returned to his father.  Praise God, the father saw him coming and welcomed him with open arms........  But the father never went to find him.  The father didn't prevent him from going in the first place.

The father had always been there, but the son didn't have access to his father until he returned to him.


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## Artfuldodger

quote:
Jesus told of a Father and Son relationship.
The son, though blessed richly by his father, chose to leave his father and go forth into the world. He left his father behind.
You remember the story. Eventually the son realized the err of his way and returned to his father. Praise God, the father saw him coming and welcomed him with open arms........ But the father never went to find him. The father didn't prevent him from going in the first place.

The father had always been there, but the son didn't have access to his father until he returned to him. (End quote)
I have heard that story a few hundred times, so it must be a good one. The key as you also demonstrated was the son came back on his on accord. I would think I have the ability to leave God if I wanted too.(although I don't) 
another quote:
Here is another way of looking at this ..... You have an earthly father " your dad" let's say he makes you mad and you don't ever want to talk to him again.You move away and never speak to him again. He is still your Earthly Father! You can never change that. When you become a child of God you now have a Heavenly Father same applies to him no matter what you do he is still your Father.(End Quote)
I'm 100 % positive my earthly and heavenly father would take me back. Isn't love amazing. Again the key is me asking.
Here is another scenario: If my wife wanted to leave our relationship I'd let her go.(I'd be devastated). If she came back I would kill(er grill) the best steak I had  in the freezer. The key is she would have to realize that she gave up a very special love and return on her own.
This is starting to sound like Free will!


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## BrowningFan

Artfuldodger said:


> quote:
> Jesus told of a Father and Son relationship.
> The son, though blessed richly by his father, chose to leave his father and go forth into the world. He left his father behind.
> You remember the story. Eventually the son realized the err of his way and returned to his father. Praise God, the father saw him coming and welcomed him with open arms........ But the father never went to find him. The father didn't prevent him from going in the first place.
> 
> The father had always been there, but the son didn't have access to his father until he returned to him. (End quote)
> I have heard that story a few hundred times, so it must be a good one. The key as you also demonstrated was the son came back on his on accord. I would think I have the ability to leave God if I wanted too.(although I don't)
> another quote:
> Here is another way of looking at this ..... You have an earthly father " your dad" let's say he makes you mad and you don't ever want to talk to him again.You move away and never speak to him again. He is still your Earthly Father! You can never change that. When you become a child of God you now have a Heavenly Father same applies to him no matter what you do he is still your Father.(End Quote)
> I'm 100 % positive my earthly and heavenly father would take me back. Isn't love amazing. Again the key is me asking.
> Here is another scenario: If my wife wanted to leave our relationship I'd let her go.(I'd be devastated). If she came back I would kill(er grill) the best steak I had  in the freezer. The key is she would have to realize that she gave up a very special love and return on her own.
> This is starting to sound like Free will!



This is different .... you can have an ex wife but you can't have an ex father. You can't undo Fatherhood but you can a marriage.


Loss of Salvation can't work in Church Age Doctrine .... I know there are sects of Christians that teach that but the first issue they run into is this:

How many sins does it take to become a sinner ? ONE  So if it take only ONE sin to become a sinner than it only take ONE sin to loss your salvation. Can't work ,I sin daily so that means I would have get 3 maybe 4 times a day, sometimes more.


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## hummerpoo

A really excellent thread, I’ve enjoyed reading it this morning.  Hope it continues in that fashion.



BrowningFan said:


> No
> 
> 2 Tim 3:16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
> 
> Again all scripture is written to you but not for you. Example as a part of Salvation you are not required to kill Bulls and Goats , in the OT they did.



Just one of many thoughts I had as I read.

In the OT God chose His people and they gave Him the best that they had.
In the NT God chooses His people and they give Him the best that they have.
Paul pointed out that it was not visible circumcision that identified God’s people.
God does not change.
God’s thoughts are not our thoughts.


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## gordon 2

BrowningFan said:


> This is different .... you can have an ex wife but you can't have an ex father. You can't undo Fatherhood but you can a marriage.
> 
> 
> Loss of Salvation can't work in Church Age Doctrine .... I know there are sects of Christians that teach that but the first issue they run into is this:
> 
> How many sins does it take to become a sinner ? ONE  So if it take only ONE sin to become a sinner than it only take ONE sin to loss your salvation. Can't work ,I sin daily so that means I would have get 3 maybe 4 times a day, sometimes more.





Loss of Salvation can't work in Church Age Doctrine  Go tell it on the mountain, see what happens....?

I am tempted to ask where in scripture does it say this? But I won't. 

I am reminded of Jesus at the well having a talk with the woman and him knowing how many husbands she had had.

So in that light can I ask is it possible to have had just two husbands and believe we just know you have one.  Christ stands in your last dispensation at some well before you? For example intimate with Scofield and Paul you do not see you way to see another's face?  How many husbands do you have?

Listen, Scofield is taking picures with his camera. They are the images of this man. Ever try you own camera and come up with images of your own? Would you want to make doctrine from you images if you made them? No! Then why do you make doctrines with Scofield's.

Now how about the images created by our Christ. His parables perhaps...???? Did Paul talk of dispensations? Peter, did he?

You are welcomed to believe what you will believe, marry as many men as you like, but would Paul have welcomed Dispensation Doctrine in his churches? Perhaps? But I doubt it.

My image is that man will always have to wash his own robes with the life of Christ and not only the blood of the cross--even in your last dispensation graph, unless man becomes God itself. In which case everything will have been a trick and poney show.

Now no doctrine is to be made of this, no man is to have at me as part of his,  as I am already taken by one in wedlock. I do not seek to add to revelation, but only to know our Christ, yours and mine...


----------



## gordon 2

hummerpoo said:


> A really excellent thread, I’ve enjoyed reading it this morning.  Hope it continues in that fashion.
> 
> 
> 
> Just one of many thoughts I had as I read.
> 
> In the OT God chose His people and they gave Him the best that they had.
> In the NT God chooses His people and they give Him the best that they have.
> Paul pointed out that it was not visible circumcision that identified God’s people.
> God does not change.
> God’s thoughts are not our thoughts.



Which is why the Good News is so important and again, those that have ears to listen.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Loss of Salvation can't work in Church Age Doctrine
How does Christians & sinning work? We try not to sin but we still do. Some try harder than others. Some have the ability to overcome sin easier than others. Some do whatever they want then ask for forgiveness. I guess you could view sins as works. They want keep you out of Heaven just lessen your rewards at Judgement.
Reminds me of the joke about the little boy who prayed to God for a bicycle. He realized God didn't work that way so he stole a bicycle and asked God for forgiveness.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

Gordon:

In my reading today, I read this scripture and wanted to share it with you. I just seemed to fit your original post.  And since you blessed me so with song, I wanted to return that blessing with one of my personal favorites.  God Bless!

John 6
53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.


----------



## Ronnie T

It isn't sin that will keep a person out of heaven,but not looking in the proper direction will.

1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin."

God is His own master.  We don't tell God he can't stop being our father.  

Here's some scripture I'd love to hear some comments on.  In these scripture Paul is address the terror of his own countrymen being broken, by God, from God's kingdom; and believing Gentiles being added to the kingdom......

Romans 11:
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

*How and why could/would they be cut off?


----------



## mtnwoman

'nothing will snatch you out of the palm of My hand'..no man....no one, not satan not even yourself. You can run but you can't hide....you can backslide but you still will not deny or really lose faith.  You may think you have lost your faith or feel like you lose your faith but if someone asks you if you believe, you will still say yes, even though you may remain in sin for a time.  And that is of course if you were truly saved in the first place.

We are all gonna always sin, little sins, big sins. We try, some try harder. But there's no way around sinning, we will always miss one mark or another. By the blood we are redeemed, bought back from satan and eternal seperation from God. Should we continue in sin, no, not on purpose....but somehow we just can't hit the mark everytime.


----------



## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> It isn't sin that will keep a person out of heaven,but not looking in the proper direction will.
> 
> 1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin."
> 
> God is His own master.  We don't tell God he can't stop being our father.
> 
> Here's some scripture I'd love to hear some comments on.  In these scripture Paul is address the terror of his own countrymen being broken, by God, from God's kingdom; and believing Gentiles being added to the kingdom......
> 
> Romans 11:
> 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
> 
> *How and why could/would they be cut off?



Because they accounted themselves Saved, Chosen and Called by birthright, just as we do by our second birth. But even then, even for these birthrights,  some will walk in unrightiousness and to the point of not hearing at all. They said and say, "What is there more  to know? We are saved, chosen, called." And their gospels will fall to rocky grounds. And they will be cut off. Their cries are heard even today in " Where is God who permits injustice and sufferings!" They knew not Christ, not the Holy Spirit, nor their Creator. They pray/prayed to God as if He is a pagan god, praying for relief for their own foolishness and bewitchings.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Here's some scripture I'd love to hear some comments on.  In these scripture Paul is address the terror of his own countrymen being broken, by God, from God's kingdom; and believing Gentiles being added to the kingdom......
> 
> Romans 11:
> 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
> 
> *How and why could/would they be cut off?



I'm thinking 'gentiles' as a whole not individually. The Jews didn't believe so they were broken off. But we do know that they were temporarily blinded so that everyone else (gentiles) could be grafted into the vine....Jews woulda had no part in that, the unclean?...uh nope. 

But the gentiles did take hold and many are 'planted' firmly in the word. I'm just thinkin' that we, too, would've been cut off, but we believed then and have continued to believe. Perhaps not individually, but as a group.

Sheesh I hope that makes sense.


----------



## gordon 2

formula1 said:


> Gordon:
> 
> In my reading today, I read this scripture and wanted to share it with you. I just seemed to fit your original post.  And since you blessed me so with song, I wanted to return that blessing with one of my personal favorites.  God Bless!
> 
> John 6
> 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.



Thanks. Nice bit of scripture. Living then for christians is a two part deal...if my little mind does not now err. Both flesh and blood are the menu.


----------



## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> Here's some scripture I'd love to hear some comments on.  In these scripture Paul is address the terror of his own countrymen being broken, by God, from God's kingdom; and believing Gentiles being added to the kingdom......
> 
> Romans 11:
> 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
> 
> *How and why could/would they be cut off?



I'm not capable of articulating a direct answer to your question.  However, I think, at least a portion of the answer, is to be found by going beyond F1's John 6 quote; focusing on vss. 60 and 66.  The truth of faith is not easy to accept, only those to whom it is given can accept the teaching, the rest fall away ... some sooner, some later.  This is, perhaps, the source of much false teaching.  When the truth gets tough, easier (more comfortable) answers are substituted.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> 'nothing will snatch you out of the palm of My hand'..no man....no one, not satan not even yourself. You can run but you can't hide....you can backslide but you still will not deny or really lose faith.  You may think you have lost your faith or feel like you lose your faith but if someone asks you if you believe, you will still say yes, even though you may remain in sin for a time.  And that is of course if you were truly saved in the first place.
> 
> We are all gonna always sin, little sins, big sins. We try, some try harder. But there's no way around sinning, we will always miss one mark or another. By the blood we are redeemed, bought back from satan and eternal seperation from God. Should we continue in sin, no, not on purpose....but somehow we just can't hit the mark everytime.



Go back and read #39.  I didn't say anything about sin.

And I know you really love the verse:  "will snatch you out of the palm of My hand'" cause I love it also.  But that verse doesn't and didn't keep the people of Israel from God's condemnation.

Please read #39 again and look closely at the verses from Romans that I placed there.  

Thanks.


----------



## centerpin fan

BrowningFan said:


> Loss of Salvation can't work in Church Age Doctrine .... I know there are sects of Christians that teach that ...



I would not refer to the Catholic church, the Orthodox church, the Coptic church and a good chunk of the Protestant church as "sects".


----------



## gordon 2

hummerpoo said:


> I'm not capable of articulating a direct answer to your question.  However, I think, at least a portion of the answer, is to be found by going beyond F1's John 6 quote; focusing on vss. 60 and 66.  The truth of faith is not easy to accept, only those to whom it is given can accept the teaching, the rest fall away ... some sooner, some later.  This is, perhaps, the source of much false teaching.  When the truth gets tough, easier (more comfortable) answers are substituted.





Now that is very interesting.  I have thought sunday school to grade sixers and fivers. In part what has struck me is how once the lowest achieving kid in the class in all classes except mine, always had the right exact answers the first and every time. The high achieving ones in an attempt to be right and first, often were a bit ahead of even God and needed a little "Well let's go back and see again." There is something in our will  and power that makes favorable to corruptions.


----------



## Ronnie T

God never "cut-off" the entire nation of Israel.  Only those who didn't believe.
But though he cut them off, they can be grafted back in.  And if they are grafted back in, they can be broken back off again.
God is not limited by our earthly father/son relationship.


----------



## BrowningFan

If you could lose you salvation, you would have to do the following five things. That is, to lose your salvation, you'd have to lose, return, or reverse ALL the things included in our salvation.



I. ABORT yourself from the new birth.

John 3:3-7 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

These verses are plainly referring to your first birth, born of water and your new birth by the Holy Spirit.

a. I don't see any way to be unborn.   You didn't have anything to do with your first birth, so how can you be unborn. Even you mother and father can't undo what was done. It's the same thing with the new birth or Salvation. All you did was receive the gift of God (Romans 6:23) by believing on the Jesus Christ of the scriptures. When you were born physically all you did was breathe.



II. UNSEAL your soul (return the Holy Spirit, or take Him to H E L L) 
(My comments are in parenthesis)

Eph 1:12-14 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest (down payment) of our inheritance (in the 1000 year reign) until the redemption of the purchased possession, (the Rapture) unto the praise of his glory.

a. Now how are you going to unseal your soul? You didn't seal it, God did. Someone out there says, 'well if you do something that's wrong, then God will unseal it." Nope, it won't work, the verse says that the Holy Spirit's seal is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. We're sealed until our body's redeemed and once we're redeemed we can't sin anymore. You cantake a jar of beans that has been sealed by someone that knows what they're doing and it'll last from now on. I believe the Holy Spirit knows exactly what He's doing when He seals us to the day of redemption!



III. DIVORCE yourself from the family of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

a. You say now I've got you! I've heard of a boy divorcing his parents. Wrong again, I don't care what that boy did, he is still his father and mother's son. My son will always be my son, we might be out of fellowship with each other, he might change his name, cuss me out or move to another country, but he will still be my son. It's the same way with your Heavenly Father, if you are saved. He will get you home, even if it's the hard way.

1 Corinthians 11:30 "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep."

Those folks had all kinds of troubles and some even died, but God didn't say they lost it and went to - H E L L



IV. UNCIRCUMCISE your heart - REATTACH your soul and flesh.

Rom 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Col 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

a. According to the above verses, when you were saved God cut your soul loose from your body so the Holy Spirit can indwell you. (Romans 8:9) The sins you commit are applied to your flesh and not your soul like they were before you were saved. That's the reason you can't lose your salvation.

What if you SIN one time

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it (heaven) any thing that defileth,

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

a. How many sins would it take to lose salvation? ONE! 
So no one can live sinless, unless it's his body that's sinning and the body won't be saved until the Rapture. So the only way to stay saved is for your soul and spirit to be separate from your flesh.



Here are some BIBLE DEFINITIONS of sin

1. All unrighteousness 
1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin:

2. ALL lawlessness 
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

3. Whatsoever is not of faith 
Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is - D A M N ed if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

4. A thought of foolishness 
Prov 24:9 The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men.

5. A high look, a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked 
Prov 21:4 An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

6. Failing to do good 
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

7. Unbelief 
John 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

8. Respect of persons 
James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

9. Hasteth with your feet 
Prov 19:2 Also, that the soul be without knowledge, it is not good; and he that hasteth with his feet sinneth.

10. Despising your neighbor 
Prov 14:21 He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth:

11. Talking too much 
Prov 10:19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

12. Heresy 
Titus 3:10,11 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

13. Provoking someone to anger 
Prov 20:2 The fear of a king is as the roaring of a lion: whoso  provoketh him to anger sinneth against his own soul.

14. Bad testimony 
1 Cor 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

No one reading this has lived a sinless life since you were saved God cut loose your soul from your body, so if you were saved then you are going to Heaven.



V. AMPUTATE yourself from the body of Christ

1 Cor 12:13 (see also verses 12, 18, 27) 1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

a. Now how are you going to take yourself out of the body of Christ? If you could, Jesus Christ body would be deformed, mutilated or incomplete.

When we put our faith IN Christ, we get the faith OF Christ. If ours ever fails - HIS won't! 
2 Tim 1:12  ... I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed IN Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

2 Tim 2:13 If we (Christians) believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

I'm trusting in the substitutionary atonememt of the Lord Jesus Christ, if you can lose your salvation then you must be trusting in something else. It is a ridiculous impossibility for a child of God to lose their salvation. The few isolated verses used to pretend that a church age Christian can lose salvation are invariable either not talking about salvation, or not directed at Christians.

A born again child of God can not lose salvation. However, he can lose his assurance, his joy, testimony, rewards, health, inheritance and his life.

We have an absolute Scripture , an absolute Saviour (Jesus Christ), an absolute Salvation (by grace through faith, not of works or self), and it's absolutely Secure!


----------



## Ronnie T

The real answer to the question of the thread is found in 1 John.


1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin."

"If we walk in the Light(capital letter), as God Himself is in the Light(capital letter), the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all our sin......"


----------



## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> The real answer to the question of the thread is found in 1 John.
> 
> 
> 1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin."
> 
> "If we walk in the Light(capital letter), as God Himself is in the Light(capital letter), the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all our sin......"



Now that is just plain and plainer than that... well.

So now when, how do we begin....who can tell me what walk we are talking about? Where does the info on it comes from. I mean I have to internalize this, before I step out...


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> 1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin."
> 
> "If we walk in the Light(capital letter), as God Himself is in the Light(capital letter), the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all our sin......"




Great passage.  Thanks!


----------



## Ronnie T

BrowningFan said:


> If you could lose you salvation, you would have to do the following five things. That is, to lose your salvation, you'd have to lose, return, or reverse ALL the things included in our salvation.
> 
> 
> 
> I. ABORT yourself from the new birth.
> 
> John 3:3-7 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
> 
> These verses are plainly referring to your first birth, born of water and your new birth by the Holy Spirit.
> 
> a. I don't see any way to be unborn.   You didn't have anything to do with your first birth, so how can you be unborn. Even you mother and father can't undo what was done. It's the same thing with the new birth or Salvation. All you did was receive the gift of God (Romans 6:23) by believing on the Jesus Christ of the scriptures. When you were born physically all you did was breathe.
> 
> 
> 
> II. UNSEAL your soul (return the Holy Spirit, or take Him to H E L L)
> (My comments are in parenthesis)
> 
> Eph 1:12-14 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest (down payment) of our inheritance (in the 1000 year reign) until the redemption of the purchased possession, (the Rapture) unto the praise of his glory.
> 
> a. Now how are you going to unseal your soul? You didn't seal it, God did. Someone out there says, 'well if you do something that's wrong, then God will unseal it." Nope, it won't work, the verse says that the Holy Spirit's seal is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. We're sealed until our body's redeemed and once we're redeemed we can't sin anymore. You cantake a jar of beans that has been sealed by someone that knows what they're doing and it'll last from now on. I believe the Holy Spirit knows exactly what He's doing when He seals us to the day of redemption!
> 
> 
> 
> III. DIVORCE yourself from the family of God.
> 
> John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
> 
> Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
> 
> a. You say now I've got you! I've heard of a boy divorcing his parents. Wrong again, I don't care what that boy did, he is still his father and mother's son. My son will always be my son, we might be out of fellowship with each other, he might change his name, cuss me out or move to another country, but he will still be my son. It's the same way with your Heavenly Father, if you are saved. He will get you home, even if it's the hard way.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 11:30 "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep."
> 
> Those folks had all kinds of troubles and some even died, but God didn't say they lost it and went to - H E L L
> 
> 
> 
> IV. UNCIRCUMCISE your heart - REATTACH your soul and flesh.
> 
> Rom 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
> 
> Col 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
> 
> a. According to the above verses, when you were saved God cut your soul loose from your body so the Holy Spirit can indwell you. (Romans 8:9) The sins you commit are applied to your flesh and not your soul like they were before you were saved. That's the reason you can't lose your salvation.
> 
> What if you SIN one time
> 
> Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it (heaven) any thing that defileth,
> 
> James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
> 
> a. How many sins would it take to lose salvation? ONE!
> So no one can live sinless, unless it's his body that's sinning and the body won't be saved until the Rapture. So the only way to stay saved is for your soul and spirit to be separate from your flesh.
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some BIBLE DEFINITIONS of sin
> 
> 1. All unrighteousness
> 1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin:
> 
> 2. ALL lawlessness
> 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
> 
> 3. Whatsoever is not of faith
> Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is - D A M N ed if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
> 
> 4. A thought of foolishness
> Prov 24:9 The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men.
> 
> 5. A high look, a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked
> Prov 21:4 An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.
> 
> 6. Failing to do good
> James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
> 
> 7. Unbelief
> John 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
> 
> 8. Respect of persons
> James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
> 
> 9. Hasteth with your feet
> Prov 19:2 Also, that the soul be without knowledge, it is not good; and he that hasteth with his feet sinneth.
> 
> 10. Despising your neighbor
> Prov 14:21 He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth:
> 
> 11. Talking too much
> Prov 10:19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.
> 
> 12. Heresy
> Titus 3:10,11 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
> 
> 13. Provoking someone to anger
> Prov 20:2 The fear of a king is as the roaring of a lion: whoso  provoketh him to anger sinneth against his own soul.
> 
> 14. Bad testimony
> 1 Cor 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
> 
> No one reading this has lived a sinless life since you were saved God cut loose your soul from your body, so if you were saved then you are going to Heaven.
> 
> 
> 
> V. AMPUTATE yourself from the body of Christ
> 
> 1 Cor 12:13 (see also verses 12, 18, 27) 1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
> 
> Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
> 
> a. Now how are you going to take yourself out of the body of Christ? If you could, Jesus Christ body would be deformed, mutilated or incomplete.
> 
> When we put our faith IN Christ, we get the faith OF Christ. If ours ever fails - HIS won't!
> 2 Tim 1:12  ... I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
> 
> Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed IN Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
> 
> 2 Tim 2:13 If we (Christians) believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
> 
> I'm trusting in the substitutionary atonememt of the Lord Jesus Christ, if you can lose your salvation then you must be trusting in something else. It is a ridiculous impossibility for a child of God to lose their salvation. The few isolated verses used to pretend that a church age Christian can lose salvation are invariable either not talking about salvation, or not directed at Christians.
> 
> A born again child of God can not lose salvation. However, he can lose his assurance, his joy, testimony, rewards, health, inheritance and his life.
> 
> We have an absolute Scripture , an absolute Saviour (Jesus Christ), an absolute Salvation (by grace through faith, not of works or self), and it's absolutely Secure!




With great respect, you've used unrelated scripture to help you "demand" what God "must" do in regard to one's salvation.
But you have not responded to the previous scripture posted that speak of God's willingness to remove from Him those who choose live in him.

Over and over the scripture speaks to the blessed assurance for those who give their lives thru Christ.... But the covenant is not onesided.


And I'm afraid I got to get to some other work and leave this for the day.
Above all, let's all thank God for the sacrifice He has made for us.
For many centuries, mankind offered sacrifices to God. And now, God has given the greatest.  Let's pray the world would respond to His love.
Amen?


----------



## gordon 2

centerpin fan said:


> Great passage.  Thanks!



So we have followship with one another? Centerpin fan?


----------



## centerpin fan

gordon 2 said:


> So we have followship with one another? Centerpin fan?





I guess.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Does "walking in the light" mean not sinning?
Should we continue in sin, no, not on purpose. 
So accidentally sinning is ok? I'm having a hard time figuring out how much sin I can do and still get to Heaven.
How hard do I have to try? Does God realize it might be easier for you not to sin than me? Perhaps I have a special problem that would make it harder than you to not sin.

As for as walking away from God. There has to be some point where I have to make an effort to return. If I never return and denounce God, I don't think i'll go to Heaven.
It would be nice to know I could denounce God, start living a live of sin. and still go to Heaven. If you say I can't do that then where do you draw the line? How far away from God can I get? Is there a "sin limit"?


----------



## BrowningFan

Ronnie T said:


> With great respect, you've used unrelated scripture to help you "demand" what God "must" do in regard to one's salvation.
> But you have not responded to the previous scripture posted that speak of God's willingness to remove from Him those who choose live in him.
> 
> Over and over the scripture speaks to the blessed assurance for those who give their lives thru Christ.... But the covenant is not onesided.
> 
> 
> And I'm afraid I got to get to some other work and leave this for the day.
> Above all, let's all thank God for the sacrifice He has made for us.
> For many centuries, mankind offered sacrifices to God. And now, God has given the greatest.  Let's pray the world would respond to His love.
> Amen?



I 



I was showing how it is Impossible To lose your Salvation by demonstrating what would have to happen .I'm not saying it's one sided. I'm just saying IMPOSSIBLE!

I think we are talking about two different thing because 1 John 1:6 has nothing to do with Salvation.



As far as the verses you are talking about. 1 John

 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.



I would answer with 1 John 3:9  

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.  KJV


----------



## thedeacon

In reading all the scripture that is presented here you must come to the conclusion that when you are washed in the blood of Christ your life changes.

If you are truly washed in the blood it changes for the better, it does not stay the same so you can continue to live in sin, if you believe that you believe that you can openly "Mock" God. 

He does not save us so we can stop living for Jesus part time, being a Christian is a full time.

We must accept Jesus with love and obedience.

If you love me you will keep MY commandments.

We cannot pick and choose what we change, we change according to the Lord.

When we are born again we become a new person, free from sin and free from living in sin. Can you buy that?

WE CAN NOT OPENLY SIN CONTINUEOUSLY AND EXPECT GOD TO TURN A BLIND EYE.

When we turn our lives over to God we leave the world and live for Jesus fully, not part time.


----------



## chadair

Artfuldodger said:


> If it's just the Cross and works don't matter, "once saved, always saved" is true. A real born again person doesn't sin anyway. Unless i'm reading the following verses wrong.
> 1 John 5:18
> King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
> We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
> 1 John 3:9
> Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

2 Peter 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

as far as the OP. I believe it also is a work of life
James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
James 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds."

 Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 
James 2:20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
Romans 2:6, 2:7, 2:8 Luke 6:46 Matt 7:21
and James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.


----------



## BrowningFan

chadair said:


> 2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
> 
> 2 Peter 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
> 
> Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
> 
> as far as the OP. I believe it also is a work of life
> James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
> James 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds."
> 
> Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
> James 2:20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
> Romans 2:6, 2:7, 2:8 Luke 6:46 Matt 7:21
> and James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.





How many sins does it take to loss your Salvation?


----------



## Ronnie T

One doesn't lose salvation by sinning.
One loses salvation by no longer walking in the Light.


----------



## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> Does "walking in the light" mean not sinning?
> Should we continue in sin, no, not on purpose. *For example purposely hurting someone's feelings....or purposely stealing....I don't think you accidentally steal....but I do think you can accidentally hurt someone's feelings....*
> So accidentally sinning is ok?*Not that I know of, did someone say it was? * I'm having a hard time figuring out how much sin I can do and still get to Heaven.*Really?*
> How hard do I have to try? Does God realize it might be easier for you not to sin than me? Perhaps I have a special problem that would make it harder than you to not sin.*Well we are all delivered, and some of us are still damaged, so for some it is harder to not do some things than it is for others....however we don't all always share the same sins.*
> 
> As for as walking away from God. There has to be some point where I have to make an effort to return. If I never return and denounce God, I don't think i'll go to Heaven.*There is only one unforgiveable sin.*
> It would be nice to know I could denounce God, start living a live of sin. and still go to Heaven. *If you are filled with Jesus, you won't feel that way ever....even if you fall away and come back.*If you say I can't do that then where do you draw the line? *Conviction*How far away from God can I get?*Conviction* Is there a "sin limit"?*Why do you feel you need that info, you gonna go as far as you can or something?*



When He says He will leave the ninty and nine to go find 'His' lost sheep. Do you think He knows where the sheep is? I believe He does. Does that sheep know 'how' lost it is? I doubt it. And He knows what sins His lost lambs have committed and will commit, does He still come to fetch us....yes He does.

There is no sin limit, it's just when you are saved you will know your own limit when you get there. We can backslide but we will still have limits of what we will and won't do. Even though I fell back into sin as an adult after being saved at 12. I still had limits. I wouldn't kill anyone, I wouldn't rob a bank or steal from anyone. Did I sin on purpose, I'm not sure, I sinned carelessly and hid from God so I could do things I wanted to do.

 Did I lie? yes I did, to cover my dirty deads, which mostly was how I lived and where I visited and what I did to destroy my body. I never shot up drugs, I never sold drugs.
So I had limits there. Sin is so much like getting caught up in a spider's web. You don't feel like you can ever get out of it, so you just stay.

Everyone's life is different when it comes to backsliding, I'm just telling you mine.....and when He came to get me, His lost sheep, I didn't know where I was, I didn't know just how lost I had become....it took me 25+ years to get there, so it wasn't like I leaped from being saved to the bottom of the barrel over night.  So it's hard to apply a scenerio of going from good to evil overnight....that's not the way it happened for me.  I didn't even make a conscious discission to just turn away from God, it happened gradually....until I woke up one day and knew that was the end of the line for me, and I cried out to God, help me Lord, help me. And He did. 
And I may have ask for help many many many times before, but I had to get to my 'testimony' before He picked me up and brought me home.

Ever heard the story of how sheperds would break the leg of a lamb that kept going astray, then the lamb was surrendered to the shepherd. When people were crucified, sometimes their legs were broken so they would surrender to the cross/death. It is mentioned in scripture that Christ's legs didn't have to be broken. He surrendered.
By the time Christ came to retrieve His lost lamb (me) He didn't have to break my leg, I was willing and ready to be come home to Him.  Not really sure how I ever made it out of that hole alive, but I'm thankful for it and for my testimony about it.

It's by the power of the Holy Spirit that we don't sin more than we do already. It's not by our own power. I know what I'm capable of, without Christ....so I won't go there again.


----------



## chadair

BrowningFan said:


> How many sins does it take to loss your Salvation?


what Ronnie T said 


Ronnie T said:


> One doesn't lose salvation by sinning.
> One loses salvation by no longer walking in the Light.


----------



## BrowningFan

chadair said:


> what Ronnie T said



Not really clear what you are saying .... I will ask again how many sins does it take to lose your Salvation ?


----------



## BrowningFan

Ronnie T said:


> One doesn't lose salvation by sinning.
> One loses salvation by no longer walking in the Light.



Chapter and verse please .


----------



## centerpin fan

BrowningFan said:


> .... I will ask again how many sins does it take to lose your Salvation ?



Don't get your hopes up.  Like the "Bible version" topic, we've been round and round on "once saved, always saved", too.  I've yet to see anybody's mind changed.

Give it your best shot, though.


----------



## chadair

BrowningFan said:


> Not really clear what you are saying .... I will ask again how many sins does it take to lose your Salvation ?


I don't believe God put a number on it. but there is plenty of evidence in the bible sayin u can fall out from Gods grace.

and as Iposted above as far as scriptures 
2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

2 Peter 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.


----------



## Artfuldodger

quote: Should we continue in sin, no, not on purpose. (end quote)
quote: WE CAN NOT OPENLY SIN CONTINUEOUSLY AND EXPECT GOD TO TURN A BLIND EYE.(end quote)
Again I ask, is it ok to accidentally sin? If it's not on purpose it must be an accident. Is it ok to UN-OPENLY sin? Christians don't try to sin, they just do.
I can't figure out what a outright sin is compared to a un-openly/accidental sin.


----------



## BrowningFan

chadair said:


> I don't believe God put a number on it. but there is plenty of evidence in the bible sayin u can fall out from Gods grace.
> 
> and as Iposted above as far as scriptures
> 2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
> 
> 2 Peter 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
> 
> Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.



Ok I will play by your rules .... I take verses not written to you. 


So please explain this verse for a Christian that is in the Body of Christ : I have many more like it . Now I would never struggle with it. Please explain it. 

Hebrews 10

 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,



and yes it say " No More Sacrifice"


----------



## BrowningFan

centerpin fan said:


> Don't get your hopes up.  Like the "Bible version" topic, we've been round and round on "once saved, always saved", too.  I've yet to see anybody's mind changed.
> 
> Give it your best shot, though.



I'm sure glad I don't have to live life everyday wondering if I'm saved. Praise be to God ! The other way would be a horrible life to live. 


Could never imagine someone offing me a BMW and me choosing a YUGO.


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## Ronnie T

BrowningFan said:


> Chapter and verse please .



It's already been posted 4 or 5 times today.
I don't want to ware it out.


----------



## Artfuldodger

For if we sin WILFULLY, again what's the difference between wilfully sinning & accidentally sinning?

I've never looked at the Bible from Browning Fan's prospective, as who Jesus was talking too. That might would be a good thread in itself. 
I found this take from someone on Hebrews:
Power-Packed warnings from Hebrews
Many preachers and scholars would love to remove this book from the bible altogether. The reason for that is that the book of Hebrews completely destroys the pillars of the o.s.a.s foundation, causing it to crumble. Often, those who do accept the doctrine taught in Hebrews, dismiss the warnings given as being only for the Jews. The only problem with that, is that they have no problem accepting the blessings given in the book (intercessory prayers of Christ, supernatural faith, divine provision, access to the throne of grace, etc.). But if one aspect of the book is to be applied to Christians, then so should the "whole counsel" of the book. That being said.....let's take a look.

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end

-yet another IF THEN statement, showing the necessity of overcoming, perservering faith in the Christian life.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin

-here we see that not only must we take heed, but that sin, can adversely affect our faith. It is also worthy of note that the phrase "departing from the living God" is used. Just as I Timothy 4 stated, it is possible to depart from Him. He said he would never leave or forsake us, but we are creatures of free will and must make the decision whom we will serve.

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

-remember earlier in I Corinthians, we were introduced to the "wilderness wanderers" who are our example NOT to follow. Verse 14 starts out with one of those IF-THEN statements demanding overcoming faith. Again, it is noted that SIN has an adverse affect on our faith. And remember we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. And that we stand "by faith".

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it

-again we see we should not be cavalier about our eternal destination, but have a godly fear.


----------



## Ronnie T

I'm not sure if this one has been posted today or not.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26

"Sinning Willfully" speaks to one who no longer seeks the light of God, but walks in darkness, enjoying their sin.  Christ didn't die on the cross so that man might enjoy the pleasure of sin.


----------



## BrowningFan

Ronnie T said:


> It's already been posted 4 or 5 times today.
> I don't want to ware it out.



So if I'm not walking in the light ..... Do I lose my salvation and if so how many times can I get it back ? Respectfully .


----------



## chadair

BrowningFan said:


> Ok I will play by your rules .... I take verses not written to you.
> 
> 
> So please explain this verse for a Christian that is in the Body of Christ : I have many more like it . Now I would never struggle with it. Please explain it.
> 
> Hebrews 10
> 
> 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
> 
> 
> 
> and yes it say " No More Sacrifice"


I'm not sure what u r askin me. 
u asked for for verses and I had already posted them, and now u r disputing them or sayin the way I believe is wrong???


----------



## centerpin fan

BrowningFan said:


> I'm sure glad I don't have to live life everyday wondering if I'm saved. Praise be to God !



A Universalist would say the exact same thing.




BrowningFan said:


> Could never imagine someone offing me a BMW and me choosing a YUGO.



I just don't look at it like that.  Nobody on "my side" does.


----------



## barryl

How come all the hypothetical questions? Here’s one, how do you “ unbelieve “ [loss of salvation]?  How about the work of righteousness, Isaiah32:17!!!  Jesus’ righteousness or your righteousness?  Whose righteousness do you trust?  Num.23:19 Pretty much sums up who’s lying! If you can’t trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ, then that means you trust in your own righteousness!!! John3:16 sums up what you get when you” believe”!!! Now, the issue is not with me or anyone else posting on this thread. It’s with GOD and his WORD!!!!!!!  Hope this helps.


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## BrowningFan

chadair said:


> I'm not sure what u r askin me.
> u asked for for verses and I had already posted them, and now u r disputing them or sayin the way I believe is wrong???



Since you and Ronny both think it is possible to lose your Salvation whether it sinning or not walking in the light , explain this verse to me as it applies to a person in the Body of Christ . And notice the word IMPOSSIBLE

Hebrews 6:


 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


God says if you lose it is IMPOSSIBLE to get it back.


----------



## chadair

BrowningFan said:


> Since you and Ronny both think it is possible to lose your Salvation whether it sinning or not walking in the light , explain this verse to me as it applies to a person in the Body of Christ . And notice the word IMPOSSIBLE
> 
> Hebrews 6:
> 
> 
> 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
> 
> 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
> 
> 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
> 
> 
> God says if you lose it is IMPOSSIBLE to get it back.



readin that ^^  looks like it says to me "once saved" doesn't always = "always saved"


----------



## BrowningFan

chadair said:


> readin that ^^  looks like it says to me "once saved" doesn't always = "always saved"



Yep and if you lose it IMPOSSIBLE to get it back. 



Have you ever thought it may not be written to you as a person in the Body of Christ in the Church Age as killing Bulls and Goats it's written to you in the Old Testament ? Could it be written for someone else?


----------



## Ronnie T

BrowningFan said:


> So if I'm not walking in the light ..... Do I lose my salvation and if so how many times can I get it back ? Respectfully .



I'd have to leave all that up to God.
God probably thinks I already said too much about His business.


----------



## Ronnie T

BrowningFan said:


> I'm sure glad I don't have to live life everyday wondering if I'm saved. Praise be to God ! The other way would be a horrible life to live.
> 
> Could never imagine someone offing me a BMW and me choosing a YUGO.



Me too.
I'm as certain of my salvation as my certainty that I'm sitting here with my laptop on my laptop.  I only time I might should have been concerned, I had the world on my mind rather than God.
That was decades ago.


----------



## Artfuldodger

It just seems odd to me that the whole Bible, regardless to whom God is talking to at the time, is full of verses on how we should live. How we should treat other people and help people in need. How we should forgive others. How we should live as Jesus Lived. He came to die for our sins but he also came to teach us how to live and treat our fellow man. There are too many verses that start with, IF. If you do this or if you don't do this. Why doesn't the Bible just contain John 3:16? Works and sinning, helping people, praying, turning the other cheek, living a meek life, etc. must play some part of our salvation. Please don't tell me if you are a Christian you'll live the Christian Life. I've done seen too many Christians struggle, backslide, and inflict a host of other worldly ways  in there life for it not to happen to good Christians. Go to the "Atheist" forum, some of them are former Christians. Please don't tell me they never were. Will they go to heaven?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Me too.
> I'm as certain of my salvation as my certainty that I'm sitting here with my laptop on my laptop.  I only time I might should have been concerned, I had the world on my mind rather than God.
> That was decades ago.


Quote:
again we see we should not be cavalier about our eternal destination, but have a godly fear. End Quote
I come from this line of thought. I wish I was as sure of my salvation as ya'll. At least Ronnie knows he could lose his. Browning Fan can't lose his, so that would be a little easier to know that. I was taught to fear God and the wrath of God type of preaching. Makes me wonder why we need to be judged if you already know.


----------



## BrowningFan

Artfuldodger said:


> It just seems odd to me that the whole Bible, regardless to whom God is talking to at the time, is full of verses on how we should live. How we should treat other people and help people in need. How we should forgive others. How we should live as Jesus Lived. He came to die for our sins but he also came to teach us how to live and treat our fellow man. There are too many verses that start with, IF. If you do this or if you don't do this. Why doesn't the Bible just contain John 3:16? Works and sinning, helping people, praying, turning the other cheek, living a meek life, etc. must play some part of our salvation. Please don't tell me if you are a Christian you'll live the Christian Life. I've done seen too many Christians struggle, backslide, and inflict a host of other worldly ways  in there life for it not to happen to good Christians. Go to the "Atheist" forum, some of them are former Christians. Please don't tell me they never were. Will they go to heaven?



Artful :I think the issue is most people feel like every verse in the Bible is written to them. Can I find verses that say you can't lose your Salvation ? YES many .Can I find verses that say you can lose your Salvation YES. The First questions is WHO is that verse DIRECTED act? See many think you have OT the Law and NT the Church and that is all the Bible is about , but we are also left with the Tribulation and the Millineum , God could have a different plan for those people , and if he has a different plan maybe just maybe he has verses or even books in the Bible for them. Just like he has different books in the Bible for OT killing Bulls and Goats and NT Grace and Faith.


----------



## mossyback8874

What about living in willful disobedience?  Repentance is the portal to grace and mercy.  It's not for any of us to question anyone's salvation, but if living in willful disobedience and not having a repentant heart, well then that person should look inward and question his or her sincerity of belief at the time of salvation.  The bible is very specific about being a new person at the time of salvation.  The bible also makes it clear that you are the child of the devil or the child of God, saying you believe and then abandoning all of his teachings are common in the world today.  Let's not judge others salvation, but examine our own hearts.  And on that note, actions DO betray one's heart, so the tired notion of we don't know a man's heart is not entirely accurate. A Christ centered life is evident when someone is a true believer, obeying and fearing the Lord is obvious by one's actions.  If you don't obey and fear the Lord, do you really have faith in him?  All of us sin, and there isn't a specific number of sins you can commit to lose salvation, but sin without repentance is another issue entirely in itself.  Didn't mean to come across argumentative, but saying you believe and truly believing is two different things, which to say is not for us to question in someone else.  We have to examine our own hearts to figure that one out.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Quote:
> again we see we should not be cavalier about our eternal destination, but have a godly fear. End Quote
> I come from this line of thought. I wish I was as sure of my salvation as ya'll. At least Ronnie knows he could lose his. Browning Fan can't lose his, so that would be a little easier to know that. I was taught to fear God and the wrath of God type of preaching. Makes me wonder why we need to be judged if you already know.



I guess I do have a godly fear, in accord with it's biblical meaning.  But in Christ, fear becomes love.  

You're making some great comment in this thread.  
Thought provoking.


----------



## mtnwoman

BrowningFan said:


> I'm sure glad I don't have to live life everyday wondering if I'm saved. Praise be to God ! The other way would be a horrible life to live.
> 
> 
> Could never imagine someone offing me a BMW and me choosing a YUGO.



or having to go thru life thinkin' you'll never see your loved ones again, they are just dust in the wind? That would be horrorfying to me....or that my help cometh from nowhere, because there's nothing bigger/smarter than me.....yikes now that is scary...so I'm on my own?....I would be hatin' that.


----------



## BrowningFan

Artfuldodger said:


> Quote:
> again we see we should not be cavalier about our eternal destination, but have a godly fear. End Quote
> I come from this line of thought. I wish I was as sure of my salvation as ya'll. At least Ronnie knows he could lose his. Browning Fan can't lose his, so that would be a little easier to know that. I was taught to fear God and the wrath of God type of preaching. Makes me wonder why we need to be judged if you already know.



Please read and pray about post # 85. This why I KNOW where I'm going when I die .  1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.  And because I have done this  .... 2 Timothy  2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


----------



## mtnwoman

BrowningFan said:


> Artful :I think the issue is most people feel like every verse in the Bible is written to them. Can I find verses that say you can't lose your Salvation ? YES many .Can I find verses that say you can lose your Salvation YES. The First questions is WHO is that verse DIRECTED act? See many think you have OT the Law and NT the Church and that is all the Bible is about , but we are also left with the Tribulation and the Millineum , God could have a different plan for those people , and if he has a different plan maybe just maybe he has verses or even books in the Bible for them. Just like he has different books in the Bible for OT killing Bulls and Goats and NT Grace and Faith.



I feel that way. When my pastor preaches, it's like he's preaching to me. Funny thing is after church we all look at each other and say wow that was for me! That's how the Holy Ghost works. The bible is so complex when you start really studying it, that you realize everything is written to you for your joy, for your heartache, for your healing for your salvation....etc etc. My Goliaths are a lot different than most of you men. My Goliath is like trying to move something too heavy, and I ask God to help me slay that Goliath, and the neighbor is out in his yard and I call him over....prayer answered.

As I have studied thru the years, I have had lightbulbs come on almost everyday. By my pastor, by posting here, by hearing the voices of children telling another child about Jesus. The more I drink of Him the thirstier I get....the more I panteth for Him like a deer after water, the more I seek the streams of water.

Most of the time I post here, I don't figure out that I'm wrong, I just find out there's more to it and a different side to it.....the word of God is just so multifaceted...
Things posted here don't take away from what I believe, it just adds to it.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> I guess I do have a godly fear, in accord with it's biblical meaning.  But in Christ, fear becomes love.
> 
> You're making some great comment in this thread.
> Thought provoking.



I have the same fear of God that I had for my earthly father...well not the same amount of fear. But the fear of displeasing, hurting, disobeying, and getting punished for it. My guilt has been punishment enough for the past 15 years and I don't want any more. I actually want to and need to be delivered from the guilt factor. Guilt sucks the joy out of your life, and I'm trying very hard to cultivate that fruit of joy, to weed out the guilt.


----------



## gemcgrew

It is only logical that free will works religion will worshippers would struggle with "once saved, always saved". That which is acquired and maintained by their hand can and will surely be lost.

Psalm 51 addresses so much of what is being discussed in this thread. Notice that David did not ask for salvation to be restored but rather "the joy of salvation".

A lot of what I am reading here on this topic, I would place under "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:29)


----------



## Ronnie T

BrowningFan said:


> Please read and pray about post # 85. This why I KNOW where I'm going when I die .  1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.  And because I have done this  .... 2 Timothy  2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.



Amen.


----------



## Israel

Mat_10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear _him_ which is able to destroy both soul and body in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -.

I trust my first assumption will not be presumption.
We are not told to fear - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -.
We are told to fear someone who has complete control over the soul and body to do with as he wishes.
Do we recognize fear always gets our first attention?

And having first attention it therefrom directs all our paths, regardless of the many affections we heap up to attempt to keep it from the fore?

It is our weakest spot, and how our weakness betrays us!
It is never long hidden.

Is there a "right" place where even our fear can be invested?
Can even the thing we hate to admit to, hate to be reminded of, hate to discover, have some spiritual return?

Do we discover as we walk with Jesus that all the other things we offered of "ourselves" in his service, even and especially...no most particularly...those things we perceived as strengths have all been of themselves...in service to that underlying fear?

All that I have ever showed the world (and even surrendered to Jesus) is the product of my attempts to mask my simple inward and terrifyingly endless echo: 
"I am nothing".

I am always surprised at how Jesus is not disgusted at that at all.
Quite the contrary.

"Would you like to see what my Father can do with nothing?"

Then I begin to understand what he has done with the one who not only made himself of no reputation, but was even willing to enter the negative column for my sake.

Jesus Christ became a curse for me. If I see what God has done with that negative, how can I resist?

Surely being nothing is quite an honorable estate in comparison.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> I have the same fear of God that I had for my earthly father...well not the same amount of fear. But the fear of displeasing, hurting, disobeying, and getting punished for it. My guilt has been punishment enough for the past 15 years and I don't want any more. I actually want to and need to be delivered from the guilt factor. Guilt sucks the joy out of your life, and I'm trying very hard to cultivate that fruit of joy, to weed out the guilt.



You need to continue.  You should feel and live in continual joy over what God has done, and continues to do for you.  
And if God has forgotten your past, you also need to.


----------



## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> You need to continue.  You should feel and live in continual joy over what God has done, and continues to do for you.
> And if God has forgotten your past, you also need to.




Amen! And once free of this world, for having once your boots on the ground there, you can for the Kingdom of Grace minister to the poor- to the reality you were and knew and lived.

Giving our guilt to Jesus, which we can suffer with for yrs., sometimes is like bringing all you credit card depts and other depts and assets for reconciliation. In twenty minutes, for the reconciliation, all the suffering is overcome.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BrowningFan said:


> Artful :I think the issue is most people feel like every verse in the Bible is written to them. Can I find verses that say you can't lose your Salvation ? YES many .Can I find verses that say you can lose your Salvation YES. The First questions is WHO is that verse DIRECTED act? See many think you have OT the Law and NT the Church and that is all the Bible is about , but we are also left with the Tribulation and the Millineum , God could have a different plan for those people , and if he has a different plan maybe just maybe he has verses or even books in the Bible for them. Just like he has different books in the Bible for OT killing Bulls and Goats and NT Grace and Faith.


I'm starting to see this way of reasoning. Since the people on the earth will be alive during the Tribulation & Millineum, it would stand to reason God would have a different plan for them from my plan.  I guess they will become immortal men during the Millineum meaning some men will never be resurrected. I do remember non-believers will die at the end of the Tribulation.
On a side note: How importantant is any of this study/learning stuff if I don't have any say so? Or is that not your belief?


----------



## gordon 2

BrowningFan said:


> Artful :I think the issue is most people feel like every verse in the Bible is written to them. Can I find verses that say you can't lose your Salvation ? YES many .Can I find verses that say you can lose your Salvation YES. The First questions is WHO is that verse DIRECTED act? See many think you have OT the Law and NT the Church and that is all the Bible is about , but we are also left with the Tribulation and the Millineum , God could have a different plan for those people , and if he has a different plan maybe just maybe he has verses or even books in the Bible for them. Just like he has different books in the Bible for OT killing Bulls and Goats and NT Grace and Faith.



Now I might be totally in outerspace here, but the way I deal with your views here is I ask myself what kind of people, what kind of society, what kind of nation does your views create.

Are these unable to loose salvation individuals, these peoples, these communities,  what they have been, what they are, what they are stricking out to be both as individuals and as communities are they walking in concert with the Good News. Does what Jesus, Paul, Peter and others said and walked square up with what is lived.

It is my view that your view makes an individual, a people, a nation just as ready to serve God in being Babylon as in being Isreal--individuals that can well serve God in both. Yet, I don't think that the blood of Jesus, nor for any part of his ministry that this is what God was after. When I read Isaiah I don't read that this is what God is after. And when I read Revelations I don't read that this is what God is after.

And when I read, I hold on to the hem of the Holy Spirit and even  Him dragging me around like an undeserving child, I just don't see Gods plans in your views. 

But who am I, just like you, I crave to be faithful --not for reward, because I love?

Perhaps that is it. Works for reward and Works out of love with no expectation of reward colors the very meaning of Salvation. When I read the bible I see grace everywhere, in every time. And this is an attibute of God just like the roar is to His lion.  Yet, perhaps there is a reward; the only reward--- His  Joy.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Artful :I think the issue is most people feel like every verse in the Bible is written to them. Can I find verses that say you can't lose your Salvation ? YES many .Can I find verses that say you can lose your Salvation YES. The First questions is WHO is that verse DIRECTED act? See many think you have OT the Law and NT the Church and that is all the Bible is about , but we are also left with the Tribulation and the Millineum , God could have a different plan for those people , and if he has a different plan maybe just maybe he has verses or even books in the Bible for them. Just like he has different books in the Bible for OT killing Bulls and Goats and NT Grace and Faith. 
When I asked on another thread if people try to find verses that say yes in one verse and no in another on a particular topic I was told the Bible doesn't contradict itself.
This reasoning of God talking to different people, tribes, nations, cities, & people of different time frames will now help me see why you can find verses that read differently according to who God is talking too.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> It is only logical that free will works religion will worshippers ...



... a/k/a "Christians" ...




gemcgrew said:


> ... would struggle with "once saved, always saved".



I assure you we don't struggle with it.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger;6792006This reasoning of God talking to different people said:
			
		

> CAUTION!!!!!!! That which we see and hear, but do not want to believe, is easily explained away by “reasoning of God talking to different people, tribes, nations, cities, & people of different time frames”.  The process is even given commonly accepted names.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> You need to continue.  You should feel and live in continual joy over what God has done, and continues to do for you.
> And if God has forgotten your past, you also need to.



I know....I gotta weed my garden more often.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> ... a/k/a "Christians" ...



I agree. The term "Christians" today pretty much encompasses believers and non believers alike.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> The term "Christians" today pretty much encompasses believers and non believers alike.



Agreed, but that's not what I meant.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> I assure you we don't struggle with it.



I know I don't. God proved that to me.....nothing/no man can snatch you out of the palm of His hand, and nothing/no man means nothing/no man.


----------



## barryl

AMEN!!!!! Centerpin fan, Mtnwoman, All we need to trust in is God's perfect righteousness!!! When anyone tries to rely on their own righteousness {WORKS}, they will fail!!!


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> I know I don't. God proved that to me.....nothing can snatch you out of the palm of His hand, and nothing means nothing.



No one or thing has the power to take you away from God..... but refusal to repent will!


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> AMEN!!!!! Centerpin fan, Mtnwoman, All we need to trust in is God's perfect righteousness!!! When anyone tries to rely on their own righteousness {WORKS}, they will fail!!!



I don't believe anyone in this thread has even suggested they one should rely on their own righteousness.

And, for your info, righteousness does not equal "works".
Righteousness equals "faith".

We are all sustained through the righteousness we find in Jesus Christ.


----------



## Ronnie T

Revelation 2:5 "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works: 

or else I will come unto thee quickly, 
and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, 

except thou repent.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mtnwoman said:


> I know I don't. God proved that to me.....nothing can snatch you out of the palm of His hand, and nothing means nothing.



I think the verse says "no one". God is greater than all but if you have free will, why would God hold you back from leaving. When Jesus took the demons out of the man and into the swine, the locals didn't like him killing their livestock and told him to leave. He did, didn't say a word. Got back in his boat and left. He'll do the same to you if you don't want him around. He'll be waiting for your return with open arms.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> CAUTION!!!!!!! That which we see and hear, but do not want to believe, is easily explained away by “reasoning of God talking to different people, tribes, nations, cities, & people of different time frames”.  The process is even given commonly accepted names.



Could you elaborate on the commonly accepted names?


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> No one or thing has the power to take you away from God..... but refusal to repent will!



But isn't that what puts you in the palm of His hand in the first place? Don't we have to go there first anyway, to be safe and secure in His palm wouldn't we have had to repent already?


----------



## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> I think the verse says "no one". God is greater than all but if you have free will, why would God hold you back from leaving. When Jesus took the demons out of the man and into the swine, the locals didn't like him killing their livestock and told him to leave. He did, didn't say a word. Got back in his boat and left. He'll do the same to you if you don't want him around. He'll be waiting for your return with open arms.



You are correct. I guess when I say nothing, I mean no man or satan can trick and trip you up with something....no one or anything they can do can take you out of the Father's hand....and no man, includes your ownself.

John 10:28-30
King James Version (KJV)

 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 

 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 

 30I and my Father are one.


----------



## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> He'll be waiting for your return with open arms.



Amen!!!!


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Could you elaborate on the commonly accepted names?


With apologies, I would prefer not.  That last sentence was a regretable afterthought.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> With apologies, I would prefer not.  That last sentence was a regretable afterthought.


 I understand, no problem.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> But isn't that what puts you in the palm of His hand in the first place? Don't we have to go there first anyway, to be safe and secure in His palm wouldn't we have had to repent already?



Yes, there is the initial repentance that Peter spoke of in Acts 2:38, but repentance doesn't end there.
Every NewTestament book and letter speaks of the continual need to repent as one goes through life in Christ.
The parable of the prodigal son is a great illustration of this.  The son left.  The father waited.  They were at a stalmate until the son realized the error of his way and returned(repented).


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> You are correct. I guess when I say nothing, I mean no man or satan can trick and trip you up with something....no one or anything they can do can take you out of the Father's hand....and no man, includes your ownself.
> 
> John 10:28-30
> King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
> 
> 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
> 
> 30I and my Father are one.



Those are great scriptures.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Yes, there is the initial repentance that Peter spoke of in Acts 2:38, but repentance doesn't end there.
> Every NewTestament book and letter speaks of the continual need to repent as one goes through life in Christ.
> The parable of the prodigal son is a great illustration of this.  The son left.  The father waited.  They were at a stalmate until the son realized the error of his way and returned(repented).



You're correct. I repent everyday, I repent for things that I don't even know I've done and ask God to reveal them to me and help to create in me a clean and a 'good' heart. A good heart for everyone I come in contact with. And a clean heart for Him. I thank God every day for His Son Jesus, who takes away the sins of the world.

My earthly father did not get to see me return, and that's one of the things I feel so guilty about. But I will see him in heaven walkin' on the shores of heaven.


----------



## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> Agreed, but that's not what I meant.



CP, which side are you on?  Not sure if you have clarified thus far.  Only curious because of your Orthodox faith.  What did the early church leaders believe?


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Those are great scriptures.
> 
> 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”



In kjv it says..29 My Father gave them me (as a shepherd) not gave them "to" me(as handing them over, saved by preselection).....means two totally different things.

Yep I thought I was deaf until 25 yrs living like a demon possessed idiot, and I heard His voice and I sure was ready to skeedaddle on home.  I was lost and didn't know where I was or how to get home....But Christ always knew where I was and came and got me....thank you Lord, thank you Jesus.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> In kjv it says..29 My Father gave them me (as a shepherd) not gave them "to" me(as handing them over, saved by preselection).....means two totally different things.
> 
> Yep I thought I was deaf until 25 yrs living like a demon possessed idiot, and I heard His voice and I sure was ready to skeedaddle on home.  I was lost and didn't know where I was or how to get home....But Christ always knew where I was and came and got me....thank you Lord, thank you Jesus.




English Standard Version (©2001)
My Father, who has given them to me

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"My Father, who has given them to Me

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“My Father who gave them to me

Darby Bible Translation
My Father who has given them to me


Lexicon:

1325 [e]/dedÅ�ken/Î´Î­Î´Ï‰ÎºÎ­Î½/has given [them]/V-RIA-3S


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> You're correct. I repent everyday, I repent for things that I don't even know I've done and ask God to reveal them to me and help to create in me a clean and a 'good' heart. A good heart for everyone I come in contact with. And a clean heart for Him. I thank God every day for His Son Jesus, who takes away the sins of the world.
> 
> My earthly father did not get to see me return, and that's one of the things I feel so guilty about. But I will see him in heaven walkin' on the shores of heaven.



I have a couple that I'll be especially happy to see again.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Yep I thought I was deaf until 25 yrs living like a demon possessed idiot, and I heard His voice and I sure was ready to skeedaddle on home.  I was lost and didn't know where I was or how to get home....But Christ always knew where I was and came and got me....thank you Lord, thank you Jesus.[/QUOTE]
I was going to ask earlier what if you died during your "demon possessed" era, but you just answered that for me.
I guess you are somewhere in the middle of the pre/free beliefs as most Christians are.


----------



## BrowningFan

gordon 2 said:


> Now I might be totally in outerspace here, but the way I deal with your views here is I ask myself what kind of people, what kind of society, what kind of nation does your views create.
> 
> Are these unable to loose salvation individuals, these peoples, these communities,  what they have been, what they are, what they are stricking out to be both as individuals and as communities are they walking in concert with the Good News. Does what Jesus, Paul, Peter and others said and walked square up with what is lived.
> 
> It is my view that your view makes an individual, a people, a nation just as ready to serve God in being Babylon as in being Isreal--individuals that can well serve God in both. Yet, I don't think that the blood of Jesus, nor for any part of his ministry that this is what God was after. When I read Isaiah I don't read that this is what God is after. And when I read Revelations I don't read that this is what God is after.
> 
> And when I read, I hold on to the hem of the Holy Spirit and even  Him dragging me around like an undeserving child, I just don't see Gods plans in your views.
> 
> But who am I, just like you, I crave to be faithful --not for reward, because I love?
> 
> Perhaps that is it. Works for reward and Works out of love with no expectation of reward colors the very meaning of Salvation. When I read the bible I see grace everywhere, in every time. And this is an attibute of God just like the roar is to His lion.  Yet, perhaps there is a reward; the only reward--- His  Joy.



I think your misunderstanding the point. Here is question after you answer I will explain further: I think by making long post people lose interest and don't keep it completely  

Were the people in the OT Killing Bulls and Goat as a part of Salvation or were they trusting on the Death Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ ?


----------



## barryl

Ronnie T said:


> Yes, there is the initial repentance that Peter spoke of in Acts 2:38, but repentance doesn't end there.
> Every NewTestament book and letter speaks of the continual need to repent as one goes through life in Christ.
> The parable of the prodigal son is a great illustration of this.  The son left.  The father waited.  They were at a stalmate until the son realized the error of his way and returned(repented).     quote--- barryl       [ACTS 2:38 is giving instructions to OLD TESTAMENT JEWS {under the law} on what to do in view of the fact that they have killed their devinely chosen ruler!!!!!! Acts 2:38 is the starting place {or jumping off place!} for the self-righteous sinner who wishes to earn his salvation by following legal regulations./QUOTE]


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Go back and read #39.  I didn't say anything about sin.
> 
> And I know you really love the verse:  "will snatch you out of the palm of My hand'" cause I love it also.  But that verse doesn't and didn't keep the people of Israel from God's condemnation.
> 
> Please read #39 again and look closely at the verses from Romans that I placed there.
> 
> Thanks.



I consider darkness, living in sin, or living away from the light which is Jesus. We do one or the other.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> English Standard Version (©2001)
> My Father, who has given them to me
> 
> New American Standard Bible (©1995)
> "My Father, who has given them to Me
> 
> Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
> “My Father who gave them to me
> 
> Darby Bible Translation
> My Father who has given them to me
> 
> 
> Lexicon:
> 
> 1325 [e]/dedÅ�ken/Î´Î­Î´Ï‰ÎºÎ­Î½/has given [them]/V-RIA-3S



Perfect example of why things get confusing. Giving Him to us as a saviour is totally different than God giving us to Him. God had us first and then gave us to Him?....or God gave His Son for our salvation? I'll stick with KJV on that one.


----------



## centerpin fan

barryl said:


> Yes, there is the initial repentance that Peter spoke of in Acts 2:38, but repentance doesn't end there.
> Every NewTestament book and letter speaks of the continual need to repent as one goes through life in Christ.
> The parable of the prodigal son is a great illustration of this.  The son left.  The father waited.  They were at a stalmate until the son realized the error of his way and returned(repented).     quote--- barryl       [ACTS 2:38 is giving instructions to OLD TESTAMENT JEWS {under the law} on what to do in view of the fact that they have killed their devinely chosen ruler!!!!!! Acts 2:38 is the starting place {or jumping off place!} for the self-righteous sinner who wishes to earn his salvation by following legal regulations./QUOTE]



Well, that's better, but all you gotta do is put in a little "[" before the "/QUOTE], like this:



Ronnie T said:


> Yes, there is the initial repentance that Peter spoke of in Acts 2:38, but repentance doesn't end there.
> Every NewTestament book and letter speaks of the continual need to repent as one goes through life in Christ.
> The parable of the prodigal son is a great illustration of this.  The son left.  The father waited.  They were at a stalmate until the son realized the error of his way and returned(repented).





barryl said:


> [ [ACTS 2:38 is giving instructions to OLD TESTAMENT JEWS {under the law} on what to do in view of the fact that they have killed their devinely chosen ruler!!!!!! Acts 2:38 is the starting place {or jumping off place!} for the self-righteous sinner who wishes to earn his salvation by following legal regulations.]



Y'all are making the quote function way too hard.


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## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> Well, that's better, but all you gotta do is put in a little "[" before the "/QUOTE], like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Y'all are making the quote function way too hard.



I hit the quote button on the right bottom, and staying within the first and last quote brackets, I highlight and delete what I'm not responding to. Or you can put your mouse to the last letter of the statement you want rid of and backspace until it erases it. Don't erase the beginning and ending quote marks.

This is what CP's quote looked like when I clicked the quote button. Leave everything in there from beginning to end and then delete what words you don't want in there.

If you want to say something after the 'like this:' part, click your mouse there right after 'this:', click on B and then click on A and get a color you want to seperate your words from his.  You'll have to post something after his ending quote marks or your response will be too short.



centerpin fan said:


> Well, that's better, but all you gotta do is put in a little "[" before the "/QUOTE], like this:*Like this.*
> 
> Y'all are making the quote function way too hard.


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## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> I hit the quote button on the right bottom, and staying within the first and last quote brackets, I highlight and delete what I'm not responding to. Or you can put your mouse to the last letter of the statement you want rid of and backspace until it erases it. Don't erase the beginning and ending quote marks.
> 
> This is what CP's quote looked like when I clicked the quote button. Leave everything in there from beginning to end and then delete what words you don't want in there.
> 
> If you want to say something after the 'like this:' part, click your mouse there right after 'this:', click on B and then click on A and get a color you want to seperate your words from his.  You'll have to post something after his ending quote marks or your response will be too short.



Thank you.


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## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> Thank you.



It's much easier to show someone than to try to tell them especially when it's written out. But you're right it's way easier than it seems.


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## BrowningFan

Ronnie T said:


> Revelation 2:5 "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works:
> 
> or else I will come unto thee quickly,
> and will remove thy candlestick out of his place,
> 
> except thou repent.



Who is this verse directed at the a Church Age Saint in the Body of Christ ?????


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## gordon 2

BrowningFan said:


> I think your misunderstanding the point. Here is question after you answer I will explain further: I think by making long post people lose interest and don't keep it completely
> 
> Were the people in the OT Killing Bulls and Goat as a part of Salvation or were they trusting on the Death Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ ?



They were not trusting on the Death and Burial no. But in my reading of scipture this does not mean that Jesus was not ever with them and nor not ministering to them.

Man has always been about sacraficing what gives him life and liberty. (Just off the top of my head, I'm wondering if peace will not be a sacrafice for many before long.)

Today people look on the sacrafice of Jesus as part of salvation. The other part(s) was/were ever there, faith and rightiousness hand in hand,  in all your dispensations. For example when I read Isaiah and his ideal justice, I cannot see it but as a part of grace. Unless God turns a page which was never done,  these things are ever going to remain the same....

I am very intrigued by your understanding of Revelation. I wonder if you see it as I do: that it is mostly a historical account of the Holy Spirit's and Jesus' and God's ministries to man since day one.  In order to say that some accounts in Revelation address another dispensation, you must see it as historical. Or I misunderstanding you?


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## BrowningFan

gordon 2 said:


> They were not trusting on the Death and Burial no. But in my reading of scipture this does not mean that Jesus was not ever with them and nor not ministering to them.
> 
> Man has always been about sacraficing what gives him life and liberty. (Just off the top of my head, I'm wondering if peace will not be a sacrafice for many before long.)
> 
> Today people look on the sacrafice of Jesus as part of salvation. The other part(s) was/were ever there, faith and rightiousness hand in hand,  in all your dispensations. For example when I read Isaiah and his ideal justice, I cannot see it but as a part of grace. Unless God turns a page which was never done,  these things are ever going to remain the same....



What ? I'm confused . So the Blood of Bull and Goats was good enough for people in the OT to go to heaven ? Yes or no will be good.


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## gordon 2

BrowningFan said:


> What ? I'm confused . So the Blood of Bull and Goats was good enough for people in the OT to go to heaven ? Yes or no will be good.



Gee... By instict I believe not. I mean I bet you could slauter cattle for fourty yrs and still be wondering in the deserts.


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## BrowningFan

gordon 2 said:


> Gee... By instict I believe not. I mean I bet you could slauter cattle for fourty yrs and still be wondering in the deserts.



WOW just WOW


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## Artfuldodger

BrowningFan said:


> What ? I'm confused . So the Blood of Bull and Goats was good enough for people in the OT to go to heaven ? Yes or no will be good.



Yes


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## Ronnie T

Originally Posted by Ronnie T  
Revelation 2:5 "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works: 
or else I will come unto thee quickly, 
and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, 
except thou repent.




BrowningFan said:


> Who is this verse directed at the a Church Age Saint in the Body of Christ ?????



*Those words were given to the apostle John, whom Jesus loved, by Christ Himself.  The words are addressed to the spiritual leader of Christ's church in Ephesus.  An established, biblically correct congregation of the Lord's church.

.


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## BrowningFan

Ronnie T said:


> Originally Posted by Ronnie T
> Revelation 2:5 "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works:
> or else I will come unto thee quickly,
> and will remove thy candlestick out of his place,
> except thou repent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Those words were given to the apostle John, whom Jesus loved, by Christ Himself.  The words are addressed to the spiritual leader of Christ's church in Ephesus.  An established, biblically correct congregation of the Lord's church.
> 
> .



Is that verse meant for a Christian in the Church Age concerning the lose of their Salvation ?


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## gordon 2

BrowningFan said:


> WOW just WOW



I don't understand...what are you WOWed about?


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## Ronnie T

BrowningFan said:


> Is that verse meant for a Christian in the Church Age concerning the lose of their Salvation ?



That(those) verses were written to a church, for it's Christians, in the church age, and it concerns the lose of their salvation.
Or, at least that's what it says.


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## BrowningFan

gordon 2 said:


> I don't understand...what are you WOWed about?



I will frame the question a different way. Do you have to Kill Bulls and Goats as a part of YOUR Salvation . And explain why you do or why you don't.


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## gordon 2

BrowningFan said:


> I will frame the question a different way. Do you have to Kill Bulls and Goats as a part of YOUR Salvation . And explain why you do or why you don't.



No you don't have to kill bulls or goats or buffallo etc...

It is because we are not to a primitive nomadic  people where the bulls and the goats were the bank, the pharmacy, social status, weath, pride, treasure, bouty, amoung others...


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## mtnwoman

BrowningFan said:


> What ? I'm confused . So the Blood of Bull and Goats was good enough for people in the OT to go to heaven ? Yes or no will be good.



First off I'm not sure people in the OT went to heaven  when they died. I think they went to paradise, which was like a holding place. To wait on judgement or wait on Christ, who did free the captives.

But for atonement of sin, yes the blood of lambs was good enough at that time. Then God provided His own lamb, once and for all. So the blood convenant was the only way for atonement before Christ.


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## mtnwoman

BrowningFan said:


> I will frame the question a different way. Do you have to Kill Bulls and Goats as a part of YOUR Salvation . And explain why you do or why you don't.



Christ was the last of the blood convenants for atonement.


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## BrowningFan

gordon 2 said:


> No you don't have to kill bulls or goats or buffallo etc...
> 
> It is because we are not to a primitive nomadic  people where the bulls and the goats were the bank, the pharmacy, social status, weath, pride, treasure, bouty, amoung others...





It's because Christ shed his Blood for us .... has nothing to do with not being primitive or nomadic.


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## BrowningFan

mtnwoman said:


> First off I'm not sure people in the OT went to heaven  when they died. I think they went to paradise, which was like a holding place. To wait on judgement or wait on Christ, who did free the captives.
> 
> But for atonement of sin, yes the blood of lambs was good enough at that time. Then God provided His own lamb, once and for all. So the blood convenant was the only way for atonement before Christ.



You are correct .... I was trying to get gordan to see how God dealt with in the OT vs the NT.


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## StriperAddict

*Hebrews 10:4*
For it is not possible that the *blood* *of* *bulls* and *of* goats should take away sins.
*James 2:23*
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham *believed* God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Abraham and those in the OT were declared righteous by faith. The OT offerings (animal sacrifices, etc) served as _a "type" of Him to come_, namely, Christ:

*Genesis 3:15*
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and _thou shalt bruise his *heel*_.

The OT saints observed the ordinances of the Lord out of awe and respect, by faith.
*Hebrews 11:28*
Through faith he *kept* the passover, and the sprinkling of blood...

When the OT saints died, they were held in bonds to the law/ordinances (Sheol or what has been called "holding place".. not he-ll) until Christ came and redeemed them after dying on the cross.  
1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 
19 _By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison_; 

In the same way, we take the bread & wine in respect to the offering of the body and blood of Christ, our Passover Lamb, not that the elements themselves are our salvation, but that they represent Jesus Christ's life and death, the final object of our salvation.


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## gordon 2

StriperAddict said:


> *Hebrews 10:4*
> For it is not possible that the *blood* *of* *bulls* and *of* goats should take away sins.
> *James 2:23*
> And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham *believed* God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
> 
> Abraham and those in the OT were declared righteous by faith. The OT offerings (animal sacrifices, etc) served as _a "type" of Him to come_, namely, Christ:
> 
> *Genesis 3:15*
> And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and _thou shalt bruise his *heel*_.
> 
> The OT saints observed the ordinances of the Lord out of awe and respect, by faith.
> *Hebrews 11:28*
> Through faith he *kept* the passover, and the sprinkling of blood...
> 
> When the OT saints died, they were held in bonds to the law/ordinances (Sheol or what has been called "holding place".. not he-ll) until Christ came and redeemed them after dying on the cross.
> 1 Peter 3:18-19
> 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
> 19 _By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison_;
> 
> In the same way, we take the bread & wine in respect to the offering of the body and blood of Christ, our Passover Lamb, not that the elements themselves are our salvation, but that they represent Jesus Christ's life and death, the final object of our salvation.



Thanks and Amen. 


What a rigmarole we get ourself into....


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## Israel

Did God have a plan B?
Or is plan A just revealed?
As in "The lamb slain from the foundation of the world?
And God is just patient?


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## gordon 2

Israel said:


> Did God have a plan B?
> Or is plan A just revealed?
> As in "The lamb slain from the foundation of the world?
> And God is just patient?




Revealed plan A.

 For those who need to cleave to scripture Ronnie T's contribution to this tread says it all I think.



> : 1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin."
> 
> "If we walk in the Light(capital letter), as God Himself is in the Light(capital letter), the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all our sin......"


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