# When a scientist recognizes design...



## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 5, 2016)

....he better keep his mouth shut if he wants to keep his job and/or avoid ridicule from peers!   lol

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2016/03/08/science-paper-citing-creator-sparks-outrage.html


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## 660griz (Apr 5, 2016)

And rightly so.

"Behold, the atheists' nightmare. Now if you study a well-made banana, you'll find, on the far side, there are 3 ridges. On the close side, two ridges. If you get your hand ready to grip a banana, you'll find on the far side there are three grooves, on the close side, two grooves. The banana and the hand are perfectly made, one for the other. You'll find the maker of the banana, Almighty God, has made it with a non-slip surface. It has outward indicators of inward contents - green, too early - yellow, just right - black, too late. Now if you go to the top of the banana, you'll find, as with the soda can makers have placed a tab at the top, so God has placed a tab at the top. When you pull the tab, the contents don't squirt in your face. You'll find a wrapper which is biodegradable, has perforations. Notice how gracefully it sits over the human hand. Notice it has a point at the top for ease of entry. It's just the right shape for the human mouth. It's chewy, easy to digest and its even curved toward the face to make the whole process so much easier. Seriously, Kirk, the whole of creation testifies to the genius of God's creation." --Ray Comfort

"My apologies for not explaining myself more clearly. I was not aware that the common banana had been so modified by hybridization, however, the truth remains that God gave man the knowledge and ability to modify it, so that it perfectly fit into his hand." -- Ray Comfort


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## bullethead (Apr 5, 2016)

660griz said:


> And rightly so.
> 
> "Behold, the atheists' nightmare. Now if you study a well-made banana, you'll find, on the far side, there are 3 ridges. On the close side, two ridges. If you get your hand ready to grip a banana, you'll find on the far side there are three grooves, on the close side, two grooves. The banana and the hand are perfectly made, one for the other. You'll find the maker of the banana, Almighty God, has made it with a non-slip surface. It has outward indicators of inward contents - green, too early - yellow, just right - black, too late. Now if you go to the top of the banana, you'll find, as with the soda can makers have placed a tab at the top, so God has placed a tab at the top. When you pull the tab, the contents don't squirt in your face. You'll find a wrapper which is biodegradable, has perforations. Notice how gracefully it sits over the human hand. Notice it has a point at the top for ease of entry. It's just the right shape for the human mouth. It's chewy, easy to digest and its even curved toward the face to make the whole process so much easier. Seriously, Kirk, the whole of creation testifies to the genius of God's creation." --Ray Comfort
> 
> "My apologies for not explaining myself more clearly. I was not aware that the common banana had been so modified by hybridization, however, the truth remains that God gave man the knowledge and ability to modify it, so that it perfectly fit into his hand." -- Ray Comfort



Note worth mentioning:
If you flip the banana bottom side up and pinch the end it splits open in two halves and is WAY easier to peel than using the "tab".
Primates have been doing this forever, it took the intelligence of humans and the design of a god to screw it up.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 5, 2016)

makes you wonder how half of all scientists can believe in God or a higher power.


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## 660griz (Apr 5, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Note worth mentioning:
> If you flip the banana bottom side up and pinch the end it splits open in two halves and is WAY easier to peel than using the "tab".
> Primates have been doing this forever, it took the intelligence of humans and the design of a god to screw it up.



I wonder what the inconvenience of pineapples means.
No designer? Back to square one.


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## bullethead (Apr 5, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> makes you wonder how half of all scientists can believe in God or a higher power.


Which half?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 5, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Which half?



????


the half that believe..     what are you asking?


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## bullethead (Apr 5, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> ????
> 
> 
> the half that believe..     what are you asking?



Lololol, I was having fun with your words.
Maybe the left half of all scientists believe while the right side doesn't. 
Engineers have no sense of humor


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## 660griz (Apr 5, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> makes you wonder how half of all scientists can believe in God or a higher power.



I wonder what is taking them so long. 
By contrast, 95% of Americans believe in some form of deity or higher power


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 5, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Lololol, I was having fun with your words.
> Maybe the left half of all scientists believe while the right side doesn't.
> Engineers have no sense of humor




Sorry, Bullet...    My bad.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 5, 2016)

660griz said:


> I wonder what is taking them so long.
> By contrast, 95% of Americans believe in some form of deity or higher power



Heck, if even 5% or more believed, WITH ALL THE EVIDENCE AGAINST HIM/IT, i'd be impressed!


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## ambush80 (Apr 5, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> makes you wonder how half of all scientists can believe in God or a higher power.




It's strange to me that you seem to be playing a "numbers game" as of late; understanding that the gate is so narrow.


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## 660griz (Apr 6, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Heck, if even 5% or more believed, WITH ALL THE EVIDENCE AGAINST HIM/IT, i'd be impressed!



I'd be disappointed.


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## StriperrHunterr (Apr 6, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> makes you wonder how half of all scientists can believe in God or a higher power.



What type of scientists? Sure if you lump them all together you may get a number like that, but dig a little deeper. How many astrophysicists, or biologists, are also believers? I.e. the ones who confront the question of intelligent design vs not daily. 

Not saying that the opinions of other highly educated people aren't valid, just that an modern internal combustion engine is a lot more mystifying to a mathematician than it is a mechanic.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 6, 2016)

660griz said:


> I'd be disappointed.



You mean, you ARE disappointed?    (since it's way more than 5%)


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 6, 2016)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> What type of scientists? Sure if you lump them all together you may get a number like that, but dig a little deeper. How many astrophysicists, or biologists, are also believers? I.e. the ones who confront the question of intelligent design vs not daily.
> 
> Not saying that the opinions of other highly educated people aren't valid, just that an modern internal combustion engine is a lot more mystifying to a mathematician than it is a mechanic.



Not sure how they are grouped; think the 51% figure covered all scientists....PhDs.     The fact that 8 of the top 10 smartest people (according to MENSA) in the world believe in God should also make one wonder what they know that makes them believers.    It's actually irrelevant, though, since people believe what they want to believe, irregardless of the evidence.


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## StriperrHunterr (Apr 6, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Not sure how they are grouped; think the 51% figure covered all scientists....PhDs.     The fact that 8 of the top 10 smartest people (according to MENSA) in the world believe in God should also make one wonder what they know that makes them believers.    It's actually irrelevant, though, since people believe what they want to believe, irregardless of the evidence.



Some do, yeah, others can be swayed. 

I would contend though that it's not irrelevant, rather very relevant. Scientists aren't one, typically, to forgo evidence, or lack thereof, and just formulate a belief and run it unchallenged. I would imagine those that believe are just like anyone else, and they have either had personal experience, or experience of another, that has shaped them. 

But like I was saying, there's the qualifier of which PhD they hold and that does matter. It's one thing for a computer scientist to believe in God, largely due to their subject matter and their beliefs not running into conflict. 

Imagine a planetary scientist discovering life on another planet. Intelligent life, without question, but of vastly differing physiology. They have to square that the Bible says that God only created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, or Adam and Xerplex, so either this is a creation of God not mentioned in the Bible (and whose image was Xerplex created in) or this isn't God's creation because it's not in the Bible. Those are the only two options if one accepts the Bible. A computer scientist doesn't have to worry about running into something like that, unless their specialty is artificial intelligence and that one's pretty easy to square. Who created this "being"? Steve Jobs did. 

That's why I asked if those numbers you quoted were broken down by PhD type, or just a spattering of all PhDs.


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## 660griz (Apr 6, 2016)

Additionally, the National Academy of Science charted belief in God as low as 5.5 percent among biologists and 7.5 percent among physicist and astronomers in a 1998 study.

I think there is a problem with polls and studies on this topic. Rejecting the religion you were born into has a high social, familial, and historical cost. Some are just not brave enough to take that chance. Much easier to go with the flow. 
Climbing the corporate ladder is a lot easier if you believe in the religion of the majority. 'Coming out', could be career suicide.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 6, 2016)

660griz said:


> Additionally, the National Academy of Science charted belief in God as low as 5.5 percent among biologists and 7.5 percent among physicist and astronomers in a 1998 study.



So, you're disappointed?


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## 660griz (Apr 6, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> So, you're disappointed?



Of course I am. Why would you need to even ask that?


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## ambush80 (Apr 6, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> You mean, you ARE disappointed?    (since it's way more than 5%)



93% of the National Academy of Science are Atheists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism#Distribution

Just to stir the pot.  Here's what the NAS says about global warming:

http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=18730

Suppose 3% of the NAS that didn't believe in Anthropomorphic Global Warming?  They could be right, no?


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## ambush80 (Apr 6, 2016)

660griz said:


> Additionally, the National Academy of Science charted belief in God as low as 5.5 percent among biologists and 7.5 percent among physicist and astronomers in a 1998 study.
> 
> I think there is a problem with polls and studies on this topic. Rejecting the religion you were born into has a high social, familial, and historical cost. Some are just not brave enough to take that chance. Much easier to go with the flow.
> Climbing the corporate ladder is a lot easier if you believe in the religion of the majority. 'Coming out', could be career suicide.





BANDERSNATCH said:


> So, you're disappointed?





660griz said:


> Of course I am. Why would you need to even ask that?



It's disappointing and incredibly curious.  Darn near confounding.  

See: Ian Hutchinson.

He does what every scientist who believes does. He compartmentalizes his thinking.  He subjects EVERY OTHER part of his life to scientific scrutiny but his belief.  Only in this ONE particular area does he not require evidence; or scientific evidence. He allows that miracles (phenomena outside of science's ability to describe) can occur and he states that science is the wrong tool to examine the metaphysical by.  It's strange to me that he allows only the miracles described in the Bible ARE true but not those of any other religious text, nor does he allow things like ESP, Clairvoiance or Crystal Healing.  Why dat is?

I agree with him on metaphysics (not science).


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## 660griz (Apr 6, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> It's disappointing and incredibly curious.  Darn near confounding.



Kinda the way I would feel if my 33 yr. old son ask me, seriously, if Santa would still visit him if he didn't have a fireplace. 
Disappointment is just one of the feelings.


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## ambush80 (Apr 6, 2016)

660griz said:


> Kinda the way I would feel if my 33 yr. old son ask me, seriously, if Santa would still visit him if he didn't have a fireplace.
> Disappointment is just one of the feelings.



I started feeling that calling "Belief in God is like belief in Santa" was somehow not right; as if it were somehow lacking nuance or respect.  After reading some things about Shamanism/Tribal Beliefs and attending a Tibetan Healing Chants workshop with my neighbor who has cancer, I'm not so sure that they are different at all.  (OOOOOOOowwwwwwmmmmmmmmm.  AAAAAAHhhhhhhhrRRRrrrararararrrrauuuuMMMMMM.)  It was keen!!

It's amazing to me what people can/will believe.  I feel sometimes like I'm on the edge of a precipice.  It seems like it would be so easy to just say "The heck with rationality" and just dive off into the loving arms of...........whatever.  

Sometimes I think I'm missing out on the metaphysical merry-go-round.  I remember feeling loved.  I want to get back on that crazy train.  I want to believe in miracles and spirits (just the good ones.  Well, the bad ones too, just as long as the good ones are more powerful).  I want to believe in Chakkras and Trans-Substantiation and Father Sky Mother Earth.  I want to believe in the powers of Satan and Ouija boards and spells/prayers both healing and malevolent.  I want to Live forever and catch a Heaven Bass.  I want to be re-incarnated as a Sultan.  

I want my life to be more complicated than reality already is.


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## StriperrHunterr (Apr 6, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I started feeling that calling "Belief in God is like belief in Santa" was somehow not right; as if it were somehow lacking nuance or respect.  After reading some things about Shamanism/Tribal Beliefs and attending a Tibetan Healing Chants workshop with my neighbor who has cancer, I'm not so sure that they are different at all.  (OOOOOOOowwwwwwmmmmmmmmm.  AAAAAAHhhhhhhhrRRRrrrararararrrrauuuuMMMMMM.)  It was keen!!
> 
> It's amazing to me what people can/will believe.  I feel sometimes like I'm on the edge of a precipice.  It seems like it would be so easy to just say "The heck with rationality" and just dive off into the loving arms of...........whatever.
> 
> ...



And based on my own research and my own experiences with other believers, this is the nucleus of all belief. It all starts with a desire to believe, for myriad reasons even if they aren't consciously known.


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## EverGreen1231 (Apr 6, 2016)

I wanted God to show himself to me, so that I could believe. What happened was I believed, and God showed himself to me.

For me, the return path to belief was short, for others it is longer, sometimes spanning decades, even a lifetime. What caused me to "seek the Lord" may be the very same thing that causes others to question more vehemently.

Some hearts God hardens, others He softens; to some he sends delusion, and others clarity. I do not know why.


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## 660griz (Apr 6, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> It's amazing to me what people can/will believe.



In my opinion, most don't necessarily believe more than they hope. 
When I observe lightning rods on churches and security guards inside, well, seems like a lack of faith to me. 
When I was getting new dog tags made back in 1986, the clerk asked for religion, I said, "none". There was an officer standing behind me that belted out the ol, "No atheist in foxholes son." I asked, "Why not?" He said, "Cause they are praying to their makers that they don't get killed." I asked, "Why would they pray to not go to heaven?" and "Why would they want to go against God's will?" He just walked away. I guess he didn't need a dog tag after all. 

So, they hope there is life after death but, do everything in their power not to go there.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 6, 2016)

660griz said:


> In my opinion, most don't necessarily believe more than they hope.
> When I observe lightning rods on churches and security guards inside, well, seems like a lack of faith to me.
> When I was getting new dog tags made back in 1986, the clerk asked for religion, I said, "none". There was an officer standing behind me that belted out the ol, "No atheist in foxholes son." I asked, "Why not?" He said, "Cause they are praying to their makers that they don't get killed." I asked, "Why would they pray to not go to heaven?" and "Why would they want to go against God's will?" He just walked away. I guess he didn't need a dog tag after all.
> 
> So, they hope there is life after death but, do everything in their power not to go there.



I don't hope.    I believe it wholeheartedly.    And I enjoy this life with my family and children.   Wanting to stay living has nothing to do with if I believe in the here-after.      He's done too much for me to doubt Him!   Healed me of the incurable, too!


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## bullethead (Apr 6, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I don't hope.    I believe it wholeheartedly.    And I enjoy this life with my family and children.   Wanting to stay living has nothing to do with if I believe in the here-after.      He's done too much for me to doubt Him!   Healed me of the incurable, too!


For every person that claims they were healed by him there is another equally devout believer that suffered horribly and died.
So what?


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 6, 2016)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> And based on my own research and my own experiences with other believers, this is the nucleus of all belief. It all starts with a desire to believe, for myriad reasons even if they aren't consciously known.



As opposed to a 'desire to disbelieve even if.....'?


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 6, 2016)

After reading the article I guess what disturbs me the most is it strikes me as being a microcosm  of what's going on all across the West, namely the silencing of persons with opposing viewpoints.  No matter where you fall on the belief/non-belief spectrum this is a very disturbing phenomenon and something everyone, particularly scientist, should be vehemently opposed to.


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## bullethead (Apr 6, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> After reading the article I guess what disturbs me the most is it strikes me as being a microcosm  of what's going on all across the West, namely the silencing of persons with opposing viewpoints.  No matter where you fall on the belief/non-belief spectrum this is a very disturbing phenomenon and something everyone, particularly scientist, should be vehemently opposed to.


Kudos sfd, well said!


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## welderguy (Apr 6, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Kudos sfd, well said!



Uhh?  What about when you told me this? :

Quote bullethead
"just sit quietly and try to stay inside the lines until called upon."


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## Terminal Idiot (Apr 6, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> , irregardless.



The internet has voted.....we have lost all respect of your opinion. Sorry.


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## ambush80 (Apr 6, 2016)

Terminal Idiot said:


> The internet has voted.....we have lost all respect of your opinion. Sorry.



Eh.  I give it a pass.   What I don't get is when people type "It don't make since".  Even your phone will tell you it's wrong.


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## bullethead (Apr 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Uhh?  What about when you told me this? :
> 
> Quote bullethead
> "just sit quietly and try to stay inside the lines until called upon."



It is clear you did not take the suggestion to heart.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Apr 9, 2016)

My experience and that of my peers who are people of faith in the sciences is that a little discretion about when and where and how we express our faith has gone a long way in keeping us from being targets of discrimination and persecution.  However, we see the writing on the wall that this may not continue to be the case in the future.

In other words, so far, no one has looked at the material we publish in non-scientific venues, our social media, our church attendance, or other public expressions of faith and conviction, etc. and said "you can't hold this faculty position, get this grant, or contribute to this scientific endeavor because of your faith."  Discrimination against scientists who are Christians seems to be coming in the same way it is coming to other Christians, "You better participate in this homosexual marriage or else" and "You better be willing to share a bathroom with some real weirdness or else", etc.

The most common way that I've seen persecution come to people of faith in the sciences has been when the people of faith serve as science professors and teachers and refuse to pass lazy students who are nowhere near proficient in the material.  It has not been about the 10% of the curriculum that is contentious (creation, evolution, big band, etc.), it has been about whether students even need to learn the material that is uncontentious to earn academic credit in the course.  The Christians seem generally less willing to prostitute themselves for a paycheck by awarding academic credit where the student has not earned it.

We are starting to see some signs of colleges and universities trying to keep hardcore Christian and hardcore conservative students out of the sciences and closing off academic opportunities.


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## EverGreen1231 (Apr 9, 2016)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> My experience and that of my peers who are people of faith in the sciences is that a little discretion about when and where and how we express our faith has gone a long way in keeping us from being targets of discrimination and persecution.  However, we see the writing on the wall that this may not continue to be the case in the future.
> 
> In other words, so far, no one has looked at the material we publish in non-scientific venues, our social media, our church attendance, or other public expressions of faith and conviction, etc. and said "you can't hold this faculty position, get this grant, or contribute to this scientific endeavor because of your faith."  Discrimination against scientists who are Christians seems to be coming in the same way it is coming to other Christians, "You better participate in this homosexual marriage or else" and "You better be willing to share a bathroom with some real weirdness or else", etc.
> 
> ...



Hmmm... so it would seem the only way science will be successfully promulgated into the future is for Christians to do it... how poetic.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 11, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Eh.  I give it a pass.   What I don't get is when people type "It don't make since".  Even your phone will tell you it's wrong.


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## StriperrHunterr (Apr 11, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> As opposed to a 'desire to disbelieve even if.....'?



No, as opposed to being totally neutral on the matter. If you'd never heard of God, or had no real desire to believe or disbelieve. 

The genesis of belief starts with a desire to believe that is then kindled and re-enforced with further learning into actual belief.


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## ambush80 (Apr 11, 2016)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> No, as opposed to being totally neutral on the matter. If you'd never heard of God, or had no real desire to believe or disbelieve.
> 
> The genesis of belief starts with a desire to believe that is then kindled and re-enforced with further learning into actual belief.



I dunno, Man.  I think most of it starts with childhood indoctrination.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 11, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I dunno, Man.  I think most of it starts with childhood indoctrination.



No doubt there are Christians and Muslims and Buddhists who are what they are because they were born into it, but there are also many that come to faith later in life for other reasons.   I can think of several apologists who came to faith after trying to crush this Jesus 'myth'.      As Antony Flew said, they had to go where the evidence leads.


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## StriperrHunterr (Apr 11, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I dunno, Man.  I think most of it starts with childhood indoctrination.



You can't indoctrinate the unwilling. That's where I'm saying it's rooted in a desire to believe. Some desire it because they want to be accepted, some do it for the pats on the head from their parents, others do it because it's less scary than a random universe, but it all starts with a desire to believe that arises from the individual.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 11, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> No doubt there are Christians and Muslims and Buddhists who are what they are because they were born into it, but there are also many that come to faith later in life for other reasons.   I can think of several apologists who came to faith after trying to crush this Jesus 'myth'.      As Antony Flew said, they had to go where the evidence leads.



This must not have come through the first time


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## 660griz (Apr 11, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> No doubt there are Christians and Muslims and Buddhists who are what they are because they were born into it, but there are also many that come to faith later in life for other reasons.   I can think of several apologists who came to faith after trying to crush this Jesus 'myth'.      As Antony Flew said, they had to go where the evidence leads.



No doubt a majority of folks are born into their respective religions. There are a few exceptions but, the generalization still works. 
There is the 4/14 rule for Christians and probably other religions. Ages 4 to 14 is when most folks accept Christ as their personal savior. They may have a falling out and get born again later but, the 'golden' indoctrination years still stand. 
So, don't play this like, yea, some folks are born into it but, most folks research and come to the conclusion when they are older that Jesus is the way to go. 
That is the exception to the rule.


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## StriperrHunterr (Apr 11, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> This must not have come through the first time



Very subjective and unverifiable evidence. "God touched my life," is one thing. Being able to prove that it could have only been Him is quite another. If the latter could be done there would be fewer religions and fewer people on the fence about it.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 11, 2016)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Very subjective and unverifiable evidence. "God touched my life," is one thing. Being able to prove that it could have only been Him is quite another. If the latter could be done there would be fewer religions and fewer people on the fence about it.



You're not addressing my point that many come to faith later in life after researching things.    do you agree that some come to faith later in life, having not been raised in a faith home?


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## StriperrHunterr (Apr 11, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> You're not addressing my point that many come to faith later in life after researching things.    do you agree that some come to faith later in life, having not been raised in a faith home?



Because your point is incomplete. Some do come to faith later in life, but that all starts with them wanting to believe. 

Fellowship, not wanting to be left out, not wanting to be looked down on, needing Jesus to save them later in life from the guilt of their behavior, deathbed confessionals, it all starts with a need/want to believe before anything else can come into play. 

Someone who wants to believe looks at the sunrise as the work of God. 

Someone who doesn't necessarily want/need to believe looks at it as the earth completing one more orbital rotation, with light scattering through the atmosphere, refracted through varying chemicals including pollution.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 11, 2016)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Because your point is incomplete. Some do come to faith later in life, but that all starts with them wanting to believe.
> 
> Fellowship, not wanting to be left out, not wanting to be looked down on, needing Jesus to save them later in life from the guilt of their behavior, deathbed confessionals, it all starts with a need/want to believe before anything else can come into play.
> 
> ...



Well, we are just going to have to disagree on this one.   Josh McDowell was an atheist with no desire to believe in anything.    It wasn't until one of his college friends told him that Christians actually had quite a bit of evidence to lean on that he started questioning his own beliefs and, eventually, becoming a Christian.    Many come to faith out of evidence...   Antony Flew would be another example....


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## 660griz (Apr 11, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Many come to faith out of evidence...



Can't happen. By definition of faith.

'SOME' come to faith for various reasons. Life after death, meet departed love ones again, etc. 

Many more lose faith...for lack of evidence.


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## StriperrHunterr (Apr 11, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Well, we are just going to have to disagree on this one.   Josh McDowell was an atheist with no desire to believe in anything.    It wasn't until one of his college friends told him that Christians actually had quite a bit of evidence to lean on that he started questioning his own beliefs and, eventually, becoming a Christian.    Many come to faith out of evidence...   Antony Flew would be another example....



Yeah, we are, because while they can say they had no desire to believe, there's no way to know it for sure.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 11, 2016)

660griz said:


> Can't happen. By definition of faith.



I'll give you that.    Let me rephrase....     Many come to a belief in God because of evidence


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## ambush80 (Apr 11, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I'll give you that.    Let me rephrase....     Many come to a belief in God because of evidence




Are there any other evidences that you can share besides your healing, which from the other thread seems like its difficult to attribute directly to God?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 11, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Are there any other evidences that you can share besides your healing, which from the other thread seems like its difficult to attribute directly to God?



lol    yep....the same old evidences I've given for years on here; evidence to me, ignored here.       I think we'd all agree that it's all been said on here...we're going to believe what we believe.   Nothing we say on here is going to change anyone; it may be useful for someone on the fence, though.    Lurkers.    Who knows.    I do remember being surprised after a long absence that Pnome had came over to the theist side.  (not sure if he's still there or not)    Makes me wonder if anything was said on here, during his years of weighing out the evidence, that carried any weight...or swayed him one way or the other.


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## ambush80 (Apr 11, 2016)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> lol    yep....the same old evidences I've given for years on here; evidence to me, ignored here.       I think we'd all agree that it's all been said on here...we're going to believe what we believe.   Nothing we say on here is going to change anyone; it may be useful for someone on the fence, though.    Lurkers.    Who knows.    I do remember being surprised after a long absence that Pnome had came over to the theist side.  (not sure if he's still there or not)    Makes me wonder if anything was said on here, during his years of weighing out the evidence, that carried any weight...or swayed him one way or the other.



Evidences aren't ignored.  So far I've never come across any that are absolutely, undeniably the work of God(s) and I would be easily convinced.  Providing me proof would certainly be easy for a God.  

Last I recall, Pnome said he doesn't feel the desire to discuss these kinds of issues anymore since his conversion.  He was certainly here because he was searching.  I think we all are.

I would miss reading about and discussing this stuff.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 11, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Last I recall, he said he doesn't feel the desire to discuss these kinds of issues anymore since his conversion.
> 
> I would miss reading about and discussing this stuff.



As would I.    Learn a lot from you guys


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