# Belief



## christianhunter (May 13, 2010)

Some of us are Christians,and some are not.It is the duty,no a Commandment to spread the Good News,of The Gospel of our LORD JESUS CHRIST.The constant attacks of the unbeliever,whether they have noticed or not,is the fulfillment of The Scriptures.What motivates the attacks,or the so called "debates"?If we are a minority,as some would love to state,and in a sense we are.Why the indignation,and constant rants to invade our privacy.Yes it is an invasion of privacy to want to debate,and disrupt threads that are Christian oriented.There are threads where the unbelievers are acceptable,if they are sincere in their questions,or comments.What of a select few who only disrupt,and stay just inside of the boundaries of the rules?
If we are as "harmless" and "misled" as some would state,why are we a force to be reckoned with?

The fact is,we are not the force,it is HE who dwells within us.The fact of the matter is,the unbeliever is compelled or driven against us,by forces they do not know,even the flesh itself.The time is coming,when their tolerance will not be contained.How shoud we greet them?

With Love or disdain?


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## Jeffriesw (May 13, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Some of us are Christians,and some are not.It is the duty,no a Commandment to spread the Good News,of The Gospel of our LORD JESUS CHRIST.The constant attacks of the unbeliever,whether they have noticed or not,is the fulfillment of The Scriptures.What motivates the attacks,or the so called "debates"?If we are a minority,as some would love to state,and in a sense we are.Why the indignation,and constant rants to invade our privacy.Yes it is an invasion of privacy to want to debate,and disrupt threads that are Christian oriented.There are threads where the unbelievers are acceptable,if they are sincere in their questions,or comments.What of a select few who only disrupt,and stay just inside of the boundaries of the rules?
> If we are as "harmless" and "misled" as some would state,why are we a force to be reckoned with?
> 
> The fact is,we are not the force,it is HE who dwells within us.The fact of the matter is,the unbeliever is compelled or driven against us,by forces they do not know,even the flesh itself.The time is coming,when their tolerance will not be contained.How shoud we greet them?
> ...





The Hatred of the World
John 15 (ESV)

18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. 21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin,c but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me without a cause.’



1st Peter 3 (ESV)
Suffering for Righteousness’ Sake


8 Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. 9 Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing. 10 For

“Whoever desires to love life
and see good days,
let him keep his tongue from evil
and his lips from speaking deceit;
11 let him turn away from evil and do good;
let him seek peace and pursue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous,
and his ears are open to their prayer.
But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”

13 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, 16having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God’s will, than for doing evil.

18 For Christ also sufferedb once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in whichc he went and proclaimedd to the spirits in prison, 20becausee they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.


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## TheBishop (May 13, 2010)

Wow man calm down there.  Take a deep breath and just relax.  There have been no attacks, only debates, but aggression was not displayed.  In these discussions first you have to _choose_, to participate. If you do not like the content of the thread it is easy to close, and move on. 

This post my friend (and I use this term losely), is the most unamerican post I have seen at woody's in nearly 2 years of daily visits. You have no concept of liberty or freedom. Good men and women have died, who were not of your beliefs, to give you; the rights to worship of your choosing; the right to assemble in public (this is a public forum); freedom fron tyranny.

Do you know what you speak of?   

_ invasion of privacy to want to debate_

Never mind your in a public forum.  One that says *spritual discussions, debate and study.* I do not see christian anywere in there but debate and discuss are right there. 

_There are threads where the unbelievers are acceptable,if they are sincere in their questions,or comments.What of a select few who only disrupt,and stay just inside of the boundaries of the rules?_

So you would like to censor all debate so there would nothing but like minded individuals? We are only acceptable if we meet your standards?

_,when their tolerance will not be contained
How shoud we greet them?
With Love or disdain? _

At some point in time we are going to have to be dealt with, why? What country do you think you live in? Is this Saudi Arabia were all the unbelievers need to be punished or convert? You sir need a take a deeper look and find out what a free country is suppose to be.  The very suggestion that you view non-believers as dissentors and their that toleration has limits, is frightening.


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## TheBishop (May 13, 2010)

Here you go watch this video.  Pay particular attention to the end were it says religious tolerance. 

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=538700

You should also go check out the sticky at the top of this board.


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## Huntinfool (May 13, 2010)

Everything comes back to the Constitution somehow, doesn't it? 


Non-believers aren't dissenters?  Now I'm really confused.


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## Paymaster (May 13, 2010)

There are no Constitutional protections in this forum. No freedom of speech. Everyone has freedom of speech extended as long as they are within the constrictions placed on this forum. Break the rules and suffer the consequences. My opinions are as valid here as everyone else's and vise versa . Constitutional Protections apply to what the gov says you can say,not what a Privately Owned Message Board allows.


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## Lowjack (May 13, 2010)

Faith is Conviction, I believe what I believe because I'm Convinced that my believes are Biblical.
So I'm not bothered by the non-believers and mockers and scoffers who always try to accuse the messenger because they have no intellectual knowledge of the bible.
So the plan is "let's harass the poster because I don't like what he posted"
Then you have Group # 2 ,those who put up a face of holiness and tell you not to respond in a certain way ,because you are preventing those who insult your believes and they might never be won to Christ.
Well I got  news for some , those that post in here who have made the rounds from church to Church, or who have grown in a Home that were "supposed" To Be Christians" are already lost, because they have made their minds up , that salvation have to be somewhere else besides Christianity so their conviction is not based on Faith In Christ.
Perhaps they have being abused in Church and of Course that would be the trigger for such an aggression.
There are many reasons why people react the way the do against Christ and his followers.
Just pray for them.


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## Paymaster (May 13, 2010)

Just pray for them.


  Certainly free to do that.


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## tomtlb66 (May 13, 2010)

Thats true, pray and keep the faith, not everyone will accept Jesus. All we can do is plant the seed, and do it in a loving way. We cannot save anyone, but we can live by example and spread the gospel. Thats it.


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## Ronnie T (May 13, 2010)

I was once an unbeliever.  And I've had a length of time in my life when I certainly didn't act like I believed in an all-knowing God.
An unbeliever is a person who might never have heard the full Gospel of Christ.  I love to associate with unbelievers.  They are usually full of questions and seem amazed that a Christian can have such a comfortable attitude about life.  
I love unbelievers.

Those who outwardly and boldly reject God's Son are a different story.  They have learned of God.  They have often studied Jesus Christ, His Gospel, the church, and they consider it all to be bunk.

They physically and mentally work against God.  Actually, it's not much of a contest.  The One they work against is amused at their efforts.
They aren't the same as an unbeliever.  But I love them anyway.  One day, maybe they will turn loose of themselves and the thinking of this world and accept.  And then they will know.

Jesus spent some time with rejecter, but He never patronized them.


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## christianhunter (May 13, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Some of us are Christians,and some are not.It is the duty,no a Commandment to spread the Good News,of The Gospel of our LORD JESUS CHRIST.The constant attacks of the unbeliever,whether they have noticed or not,is the fulfillment of The Scriptures.What motivates the attacks,or the so called "debates"?If we are a minority,as some would love to state,and in a sense we are.Why the indignation,and constant rants to invade our privacy.Yes it is an invasion of privacy to want to debate,and disrupt threads that are Christian oriented.There are threads where the unbelievers are acceptable,if they are sincere in their questions,or comments.What of a select few who only disrupt,and stay just inside of the boundaries of the rules?
> If we are as "harmless" and "misled" as some would state,why are we a force to be reckoned with?
> 
> The fact is,we are not the force,it is HE who dwells within us.The fact of the matter is,the unbeliever is compelled or driven against us,by forces they do not know,even the flesh itself.The time is coming,when their tolerance will not be contained.How should we greet them?
> ...



In answer to a post above,from The Bishop.I'm calm as a cucumber.I'm as American as you are,and glad of it.We take constant bantering from a couple of folks on here,who it would seem,that you want to join their ranks.I delete many of my Threads that were intended for Christian discussion,that are mottled with gibberish only to intimidate.Like Ronnie T, I love the unbeliever,as well as the atheist.I do get agitated,with some of the disrespectful remarks.I have friends on here who are unbelievers,yet they show respect.We disagree,and we move on,that can not be said for some.In fairness that would be believer,and unbeliever alike.I reread the OP,I don't think I was being a tyrant,so I'll let it stand.The remark on tolerance is Scriptural,so it will stand also.Maybe you read more into my OP,than was intended.Never the less,I read it again,and still choose to let it stand.


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## Ronnie T (May 13, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> In answer to a post above,from The Bishop.I'm calm as a cucumber.I'm as American as you are,and glad of it.We take constant bantering from a couple of folks on here,who it would seem,that you want to join their ranks.I delete many of my Threads that were intended for Christian discussion,that are mottled with gibberish only to intimidate.Like Ronnie T, I love the unbeliever,as well as the atheist.I do get agitated,with some of the disrespectful remarks.I have friends on here who are unbelievers,yet they show respect.We disagree,and we move on,that can not be said for some.In fairness that would be believer,and unbeliever alike.I reread the OP,I don't think I was being a tyrant,so I'll let it stand.The remark on tolerance is Scriptural,so it will stand also.Maybe you read more into my OP,than was intended.Never the less,I read it again,and still choose to let it stand.



Let it Stand!


.


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## Diogenes (May 14, 2010)

HF states: “Non-believers aren't dissenters? Now I'm really confused.”

Well, that ought not be so confusing, should it?  ‘Christian’ believers are dissenters, so far as Muslims are concerned, and anyone who doesn’t believe in Santa is a ‘dissenter’ so far as a four-year-old is concerned.  

Point is, if your only goal is 100% compliance with your own belief of the moment, then you had best have something better to bring than the condemnation of others.  Get over yourselves.  Your own position is not provable, and has no genuinely superior characteristics that separate it from any other ‘belief.’  The defining of differing views as ‘dissent’  that needs to be stamped out is the major flaw of all religions and of most governments.  It seems never to cross some minds that many do not WANT to be just like you . . . 

See, we get stuff like this – “Well I got news for some , those that post in here who have made the rounds from church to Church, or who have grown in a Home that were "supposed" To Be Christians" are already lost, because they have made their minds up  . . . “   Um?   Right.  It isn’t as though the author of that quote has his own mind made up, or anything . . . just that anyone who doesn’t agree is guilty of having THEIR minds made up, and that is not acceptable, somehow . . . if it wasn’t so sad it would be funny. 

I’ve got some news too – reasonable folks can sniff out hypocrisy at 500 yards . . . 

“The One they work against is amused at their efforts.”   Really?   I’d like to hear that one from your source of such a smug and unsupportable assertion.  Could you forward us the cell-phone number of this ‘ONE’ you speak for, so that the rest of us might learn why this ‘One’ is ‘amused’?  Or is it classified?  Certainly the all-powerful ‘One’ must have a phone by now, or at least an email address?  Or does this ‘One’ choose only to speak through your own statements?

The OP opines: “I delete many of my Threads that were intended for Christian discussion,that are mottled with gibberish only to intimidate.Like Ronnie T, I love the unbeliever,as well as the atheist.I do get agitated,with some of the disrespectful remarks.”

Bosh and nonsense.  One cannot say aloud – “It is the duty,no a Commandment to spread the Good News,of The Gospel of our LORD JESUS CHRIST,” and in the same breath claim that others attempt to intimidate YOU.  For many, if not most, the Gospels you cite are gibberish, endlessly interpreted and fiercely debated even among your fellow ‘believers.’  Respect for a position is wholly commensurate with the respect that position allows to other thoughts and interpretations, and so long as Catholics and Protestants, and even Protestant denominations are warring  ideologically amongst themselves internally it is one heck of a stretch to try to portray yourselves as some sort of a coherent group that is being ‘attacked’ from the outside.  

Your zeal to leap to your own defense, often violently history shows, reveals an underlying insecurity that cannot tolerate anything other than total agreement.  That the historically persecuted might rise to become the modern persecutors is hardly a surprise if one has read even a speck of actual history, but please don’t try to be both.  You can’t be both the intimidator, Commanded By GOD to spread your seed, and the intimidated, threatened by independent thought.  That is a non-sequitur.  

If thoughts and remarks that question your position are ‘disrespectful’ of your position, then so, the same, are your remarks ‘disrespectful’ of other positions.  We are speaking of the abstract here – the ‘Spiritual,’ not of demonstrated fact, and there is no right to presume that respect for your position must be granted as a given when you display no such respect for the positions of another.  Demanding such, as is too often done, requires proving beyond doubt that you are right and others are wrong – and so we ask you to do so.

You cannot.  Obviously.  Now, we’re already convinced that the view from way up there on that high horse is magnificent, since we’re told of it often enough, but don’t pretend of a sudden that you do not engage in the wholesale condemnation of others who do not share your view – it is all you folks have to rely upon.

Respect is as respect does, where I come from, and is not demanded from others while not returned.

That would be imperiousness writ large, which is exactly what you accuse . . .


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## ronpasley (May 14, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> HF states: “Non-believers aren't dissenters? Now I'm really confused.”
> 
> Well, that ought not be so confusing, should it?  ‘Christian’ believers are dissenters, so far as Muslims are concerned, and anyone who doesn’t believe in Santa is a ‘dissenter’ so far as a four-year-old is concerned.
> 
> ...



Some very good points Diogenes. 
I just want to say one thing I love you. Your thoughts are very powerful a man of strong wisdom as for me very very weak in communicting. I do enjoy reading your post.
Thanks again your friend 
Ron


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## PWalls (May 14, 2010)

Paymaster said:


> Just pray for them.
> 
> 
> Certainly free to do that.



Excellent point


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## gtparts (May 14, 2010)

Let it stand. 

Or maybe the Admins & Mods will shut the SDDS down permanently. 

After observing and participating for some time, it is obvious to me, that the issue of dissent at all levels, resolves nothing! Those posts that are spiritually uplifting, that support unity, are few and far between for all the hi-jacking by the nonspiritual posting.

The atheist, _de facto_ or otherwise, does not believe in spirits, does not believe in the existence of the souls of mankind, does not believe in God or gods, and considers any assertion that positively frames a belief in such, is poppycock and balderdash. We are not speaking of alternative views within the realm of things spiritual. We are speaking of direct opposition to all things spiritual coming from those whose understanding is outside of the spiritual.

Imagine how long a person would last, on a forum for RC plane enthusiasts, who doesn't own one, never builds one, never flies one, and at every turn argues against those who do. If all one does is actively work to the tearing down of the hobby of RC planes, I would expect those in authority would quickly recognize the negative impact and deal accordingly.

One might say that some "contributors" to this forum stimulate thinking by bringing anti-spiritual or non-spiritual ideas to the table. Since this forum is defined, at least in part, by its title, anything non-spiritual should be excluded, being antithetical to the word "spiritual". And if so, how much more the anti-spiritual, that actively opposes the spiritual. 

The atheist position is clear. They reject the spiritual. I think all understand that position and those things employed to advance that position. We get it. We don't accept it for ourselves, but we get it. We don't accept it on behalf of those who are seeking or may seek, but we get it.

The simple truth is that the Christian, or Muslim, etc. must still reject atheism on the basis of their faith. The faith based person does not reject science out of hand. Where science provides answers that do not conflict with faith, science is embraced. (Keep the baby, pour out the bathwater.) Where science cannot provide answers (and never will), is in the area of faith. 

And this is what I believe motivates the atheist to keep coming back. They really, truly, don't get it. They may want it or they may want to destroy it, but they don't get it. They simply can't or won't wrap their minds around the spiritual. Those that seek to destroy spirituality, by extension are working to destroy this forum. Those that want to get it and haven't gotten it, are better off looking to establish a personal relationship with someone who does get it, if they are sincere in their quest. It may grow out of this forum, but it will probably never happen within this forum.

And that is my last word on this thread.


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## pnome (May 14, 2010)




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## TheBishop (May 14, 2010)

gtparts do you know the word hypocrisy? It is *ONLY* when we do not conform to *YOUR* definition of spiritual do you label us as trespassers. You were one of the first to jump on my thread and call it jibberish, becuase it did not meet your standards.

 I see the world in a different light than you.  I find more spiritual knowledge observing the natural world than any book can give me. Agian, it is my definition of spirituality, one you refuse to accept as a possibility. You constantly tell me I'm wrong.  O.K. thats fine I'll listen, but you better not tell me I'm wrong with facts you cannot proove.   I will discuss all options, but accept nothing as given fact unless it is validated.   

I came here becuase I am spiritual in my own way and I like to debate. This is The Spritual Debate and Discussion board not The Christian Version Of Spirituality Discussion board.  So it is a forum were all beliefs in spirituality should be welcome. 
I  for one enjoy seeing others people view of the world. I view it as a knowledge gathereing tool so I may better myself and others.


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## christianhunter (May 14, 2010)

"in a demeaning manner,or for antagonistic purposes only."Partial quote from the rules sticky.Looks like some people are cut a lot of slack by the Admin and Mods.Should it have to be that way?
I enjoy it when the Admins involve themselves in the threads,here.They rarely ever do anymore,it is a shame when adults have to be censored.To date,I have never had a warning.It could be for two reasons,(1.)I have never broken a rule yet. or (2.)They cut me some slack.I enjoy this forum,or I wouldn't frequent it so much.There still remains those,who simply come to antagonize.To be an Admin or Mod,on some of these forums,is a laborious task,and they do it for free.It is a shame that we as adults can not talk about an Almighty GOD.


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## FishHunt (May 14, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> .Yes it is an invasion of privacy to want to debate,and disrupt threads that are Christian oriented.



Maybe it's time to setup a forum for Christians that share your exact beliefs.  Then if possible set another up for me because my Christian beliefs are different than yours. Then maybe another forum for Catholics, Jews, Atheists etc..    
Wouldn't want to invade anyones privacy around here.


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## christianhunter (May 14, 2010)

FishHunt said:


> Maybe it's time to setup a forum for Christians that share your exact beliefs.  Then if possible set another up for me because my Christian beliefs are different than yours. Then maybe another forum for Catholics, Jews, Atheists etc..
> Wouldn't want to invade anyones privacy around here.




Too rich for me.


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## thedeacon (May 14, 2010)

I wonder why we have only a few post per day compared to what it used to be? I think its the company we keep in here. 

I know I have said as much as I intend to say to the atheist in here because I don't think it has done any good at all. I think saying more would only fuel them. 

THATS WHAT THEY WANT.


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## christianhunter (May 14, 2010)

Just for the record,there are two unbelievers on here, that I call friend.Then there is pnome,who can't help, but like pnome.I have several relatives and numerous friends,who are unbelievers.What gets me is the persona of a couple who just can not let an uplifting thread alone.That is it,no tyranny,no exclusion,just a simple question,as to why they can't leave well enough alone?


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## tell sackett (May 14, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> gtparts do you know the word hypocrisy? It is *ONLY* when we do not conform to *YOUR* definition of spiritual do you label us as trespassers. You were one of the first to jump on my thread and call it jibberish, becuase it did not meet your standards.
> 
> I see the world in a different light than you.  I find more spiritual knowledge observing the natural world than any book can give me. Agian, it is my definition of spirituality, one you refuse to accept as a possibility. You constantly tell me I'm wrong.  O.K. thats fine I'll listen, but you better not tell me I'm wrong with facts you cannot proove.   I will discuss all options, but accept nothing as given fact unless it is validated.
> 
> ...


"hypocrisy"?,".. accept nothing as given fact unless it is validated."?

Pot meet kettle. I have a list of a dozen or so of your posts I found after a quick search that seem to let the air out of the above two balloons.

I forgot to add: ch, let it stand brother


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## pnome (May 14, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> JThen there is pnome,who can't help, but like pnome.



You'd be surprised.


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## formula1 (May 14, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> What motivates the attacks,or the so called "debates"?
> 
> What of a select few who only disrupt,and stay just inside of the boundaries of the rules?
> 
> ...



Lots of good questions, CH.  I haven't read anyone else's posts, but I'll give my take on yours.

What motivates the attacks is simple, Jesus is either who He said (God and King) or He is not. Men don't want a King by nature, a ruler over their lives. Many choose whether by educated reasoning or outright attack to do whatever they can to discredit even the thought of an Almighty God and King, by some measure thinking that their reasoned arguments will justify them in the end. But it is only God who justfies and it is only through Jesus Christ by which God does that justification. He is the Door, the only Door. They attack because it doesn't fit their reasoned argument and they cannot lay themselves down for that King! 

I am not bothered by them at all. They teach us to understand nonbelievers and have patience with them in hopes that we can help lead them to the one true God.  It can be frustrating at times and often it seems that we are making no progress with them at all.  But God in His infinite wisdom knows what He is doing.  So lets love them, explain the truth the best we can and try to keep an open door to their heart in hopes that some might hear Jesus calling. Its easy to approach them with love if you know who you are really fighting.

Time to rest. Goodnight. PS- CH-Something coming your way.


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## Ronnie T (May 14, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> gtparts do you know the word hypocrisy? It is *ONLY* when we do not conform to *YOUR* definition of spiritual do you label us as trespassers. You were one of the first to jump on my thread and call it jibberish, becuase it did not meet your standards.
> 
> I see the world in a different light than you.  I find more spiritual knowledge observing the natural world than any book can give me. Agian, it is my definition of spirituality, one you refuse to accept as a possibility. You constantly tell me I'm wrong.  O.K. thats fine I'll listen, but you better not tell me I'm wrong with facts you cannot proove.   I will discuss all options, but accept nothing as given fact unless it is validated.
> 
> ...



I would be very interested in hearing about your spiritual life.
If you are spiritual, you must believe in a spirit.  Above, you spoke of the natural world and a spiritual nature involved in it.  I'd be interested in hearing more about that than listen to you diss my spiritual beliefs.

Lets face it friend, as has been said before, you are obviously here to voice your outrage at our beliefs.

Personally, I think this forum is a great opportunity for you to get clarity on Christian beliefs.  Or any other beliefs.

I would love to discuss Christianity with you.  I won't even mind debating spiritual matters with you.  But I have no desire to debate with you concerning the validity of God and Jesus Christ.  If I wanted to do that, I'd go to an atheist forum.


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## Ronnie T (May 14, 2010)

pnome said:


>



1.  A Christian should never beat the atheist with the cross.  The cross is for carrying, not for assaulting unbelievers.  The cross is for sharing, not for driving away.

2.  I suspect the cartoon is incomplete.  The first scene of the cartoon story should have shown the atheist trying to take the cross from the Christian.  That's how the altercation started!


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## tell sackett (May 14, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> 1.  A Christian should never beat the atheist with the cross.  The cross is for carrying, not for assaulting unbelievers.  The cross is for sharing, not for driving away.Preach
> 
> 2.  I suspect the cartoon is incomplete.  The first scene of the cartoon story should have shown the atheist trying to take the cross from the Christian.  That's how the altercation started!


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## Diogenes (May 15, 2010)

Actually, the word ‘Spiritual’ tends to refer one back to the ‘Spirit,’ which, by common definition, does not limit itself to a single invisible entity.  For many, and these days perhaps most, ‘spirit’ has come to denote the incorporeal part of being human – that portion of us that is not wholly body – or, in other words, the mind.  

Any abstraction is said to refer to the spiritual – we can be in good spirits if we are happy, or bad spirits if not – we refer to ‘team spirit,’ and ‘the spirit of the law.’  We can have our ‘spirits broken,’ or have them uplifted, and we can act in accordance with the ‘spirit’ of the age, referring to the dominant tendency, or we can act in accordance with a sense of membership in a group, in the ‘old college spirit.’  

And if we get too far from our good spirits we can also grab a bottle and down a few shots of ‘spirits’ to help us re-temper our ‘spirits’ . . .   perhaps a more defining view of ‘spiritual’ than is intended, but one I doubt many here are against . . . 

Point is, referring to the ‘spiritual’ only and exclusively in the context of the Christian God is invalid on every possible level.  Many ‘religions’ do not even propose a God, and are no less spiritual in their views and approaches to temporal life.  The dominant religion of Japan is Shinto, which proposes no God at all, but instead worships nature and ancestors.  Is such an approach to spirituality automatically invalid due to the failure to place your own propositions at the center?  Can you assert that YOU are ‘Spiritual’ and THEY are not?  

Similarly, Buddhism does not propose a God that must be obeyed and worshipped, but holds that individual enlightenment is the true path to fulfillment.  Will you hold that this is not also a form of spirituality?  Does the threatened punishment of the invisible being at the center of your own doctrine force you to conclude that only your own form of ‘spirituality’ holds validity?  Because in rejecting those of us who are unapologetic ‘non-believers’ you also reject all other spiritual pursuits that do not conform to your own, in frightened lock-step.  But, yours is still the minority view.    

Be honest here – what exactly counts as ‘Spiritual’?  To you.  Are the few aboriginals on this planet who are still making ritualistic sacrifices to the rain gods ‘spiritual’ in your view, and if not, why not?  They certainly ‘believe’ in their approach as passionately as you do, and perhaps make a better use of their spirituality if only through the lack of persecuting opposition.  We fail to find Shinto, or Buddhism, or many dozens of other spiritual belief systems actively trying to impose themselves on others in the name of ‘converting’ the poor, bereft, pathetic ‘non-believers’ that you folks keep on saying need to be ‘Saved’ through your intervention.  

And if you feel that you, and you alone, were somehow appointed to ‘Save’ everyone else, as is continually asserted, then do not attempt to pretend to be somehow ‘oppressed’ or ‘persecuted’ when your entire stated mission in life is to oppress and persecute everyone other than yourselves, and convert them to your point of view.  Honestly, when your stated mission is to condescend, organize, oppress, convert, insult, bully, hector, and even legislate your own ‘Spirituality’ at the expense of any and all other views, it can hardly be a surprise when most everyone begins to view you not only with suspicion but with open horror and contempt.


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## Ronnie T (May 15, 2010)

Diogenes;4935324
 
And if you feel that you said:
			
		

> I completely agree with the above paragraph.  Personally, I'm a Christian.  You might be Islamic.
> You have a right to be Islamic.  If you are devout, you would probably want to share your relationship with God with me and other people.  But there are boundries.  I might want to share my Christian beliefs and life with you.  But there are boundries.  If you are a proclaiming atheist, it would not be appropriate for me to "hound" you because you don't believe as I do.
> 
> Here on this Spiritual debate and discussion forum people come to discuss their Spiritual beliefs and needs.
> Sir, what are your Spiritual beliefs?


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## Diogenes (May 15, 2010)

“Sir, what are your Spiritual beliefs?”

Personally. sir, mine are few.  I believe in the human spirit, and simply by making the above post you have reaffirmed that belief.  

I believe in the unending capacity of people to learn and to grow and to think on their own – that there are few needs to propose or construct or erect authoritarian structures based on the unknown in order to deal with the realities we all face together.  None of us know, and pretending to do so, and attempting to shove that fictional viewpoint aimed only at controlling others down the throats of all  is worse than destructive and is actually the history of everything that is wrong with the human condition.  

I believe that the human spirit seeks largely to be left in peace, and will by nature bridle and react against any imposition of the will of another, and I believe that history bears that thought out as well.  

I believe that things exist, including ourselves,  simply because billions of years of endlessly failed and rarely succeeding combinations led them to exist as they do, and that it is certainly complicated, but by no means miraculous.  I believe that the human spirit of curious inquiry has discovered many things, and will continue to do so if it is not inhibited artificially by the imposition of draconian ‘rules’ that stem entirely from an ancient set of writings that sought to govern, rather than to liberate the human ‘spirit’.

Short of writing a few hundred pages here, which I could easily do, I believe in people and in realities, rather than in ghosts and gods and fairy tales and ancient allegorical fables meant to teach lessons.  The lessons are no less valuable, and more should heed them, the less we would need to make so many laws of our own, but in the end every bit of it – from the lessons to the laws to the structures of religions and governments designed to enforce the thoughts are purely human constructs.  Considering the forces we face as tiny little humans, from hurricanes and earthquakes to tornados and floods, just to name a few, it seems like we have our hands full without going further and not only assigning those problems to an invisible being but also proposing that we must somehow obey something or another in order to be saved from another something or another – all speculated, but given the force of the pulpit.  By a person, standing in that pulpit.

I believe, or wish to believe, that we are smarter than that, and at least some of history validates that thought at well.  We have waged World Wars to knock down dictatorial thoughts and dreams of universal conquest, temporally, and yet we not only tolerate but seem to encourage those who do the same in the name of an invisible and undemonstrated God rather than of a genuine man.  Unquestioning.   Do we fight now against Allah?  We say that we do not, but those we are fighting are only fighting in the name and for the cause of their God.  We say that is irrational.  But we react, just the same.  

Is the reaction in the name of our own God?  Or is it, truthfully, because we will not have their God imposed upon us by force?  And if that is true, which it certainly is, then where is the difference between one form of forcible imposition and another?

I believe that nobody who is truly spiritual can or will follow a path other than the one they set for themselves, with eyes wide open, and any attempt to force one view from a bully pulpit and even a legislative one is doomed to failure.  The ‘human spirit’ will always prevail, in the end, and always has.


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## Ronnie T (May 15, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> “Sir, what are your Spiritual beliefs?”
> 
> Personally. sir, mine are few.  I believe in the human spirit, and simply by making the above post you have reaffirmed that belief.
> 
> ...



I totally agree.  A person's conscience must always be satisfied.  To ask or suggest a person go against it is futile and misguided.


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## TheBishop (May 15, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> "hypocrisy"?,".. accept nothing as given fact unless it is validated."?
> 
> Pot meet kettle. I have a list of a dozen or so of your posts I found after a quick search that seem to let the air out of the above two balloons.
> 
> I forgot to add: ch, let it stand brother



Show me my hypocricy so I my change my ways.  I looked and found none.


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## TheBishop (May 15, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> I would be very interested in hearing about your spiritual life.
> If you are spiritual, you must believe in a spirit.  Above, you spoke of the natural world and a spiritual nature involved in it.  I'd be interested in hearing more about that than listen to you diss my spiritual beliefs.
> 
> Lets face it friend, as has been said before, you are obviously here to voice your outrage at our beliefs.
> ...



Yeagh I tried write something that I found spiritual.  It was the so called "Believers" that came out and attacked it.  Heck it was written metaphorically were everyone could take something away from it.  But becuase I hinted you could find solace in other things besides what "beleivers" believe, it was called gibberish, garble and it was dismissed.  

I'm not here just to voice my outrage.  You would be hard pressed to go view my posts and find were I'm actually attacking your beleifs.  I do not. I attack your religions positions on subjects. That is quite different. That is the idea behind a debate, to attack positions. 

I beleive in the right to choose what we worship. Like Dio I beleive in the Human spirit, the spirit of nature, and more importantly the AMERICAN spirit. My sacred documents are the U.S. Constitution, The Bill Of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence.  I beleive in the free sprit of men, and that there is no greater contributor to life of men than man.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 16, 2010)

Like a room full of dogs chasing their tails, and sadly, Pnome's cartoon expressed it so accurately..


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## Huntinfool (May 17, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> I’ve got some news too – reasonable folks can sniff out hypocrisy at 500 yards . . .




Yes they can my man.....yes they can.


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## thedeacon (May 17, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> Yeagh I tried write something that I found spiritual.  It was the so called "Believers" that came out and attacked it.  Heck it was written metaphorically were everyone could take something away from it.  But becuase I hinted you could find solace in other things besides what "beleivers" believe, it was called gibberish, garble and it was dismissed.
> 
> I'm not here just to voice my outrage.  You would be hard pressed to go view my posts and find were I'm actually attacking your beleifs.  I do not. I attack your religions positions on subjects. That is quite different. That is the idea behind a debate, to attack positions.
> 
> I beleive in the right to choose what we worship. Like Dio I beleive in the Human spirit, the spirit of nature, and more importantly the AMERICAN spirit. My sacred documents are the U.S. Constitution, The Bill Of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence.  I beleive in the free sprit of men, and that there is no greater contributor to life of men than man.



You sound like an intelligent man. The problem is, I don't hear to good sometimes. You talk about attack, and positions, debate, and the U.S. constitution etc. Your words mean nothing because of a lack of respect.

Well, the way I see it you did not come here to seek information, you came to give information, to disrupt discussions among people wanting to learn from others.

I don't see you as a person who has and intentions of learning anything from a Christian. I do however think you would love to tear down Godly beliefs.

You sir seem to be an attacker not a debater. Others here that believe or on the constant defense when you are posting. 

In short sir. I have very little respect for what you believe or what you say. I don't like you, I would not choose to have dinner with you or even a cup of coffee.

However I do pray that someday you will see the ere of your way and decide to seek the true God.

And know this I am not judgeing you, you did that yourself by the fruit you beared in my presence. I do love you as a man just as God commanded me to do, and I do wish the best for you, but why would you want to try to change my mind if I want to serve God?


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## TheBishop (May 17, 2010)

Please show me were I showed disrespect.  Show me were I responded to a position, and was out of line. If people are defending anything against me it is becuase I attacked their POSITION.  Doing that makes me a debater.  

I'm sorry you feel the way you do.  I assure you, you are making a premature judgement.  That is your choice.  I do not seek to discourage anybodys beliefs, or tear down your God.  I do however wish to see an end to religious zealotry, and intolerance.   That leads to nowhere but bad places.  I beleive ALL religions have merit but none has exclusivity.


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## earl (May 17, 2010)

Christianity and the Muslim faith are dependant on exclusivity . They are an all or nothing faith and call on their faithful to defend their God to the death .


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## Huntinfool (May 17, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> If people are defending anything against me it is becuase I attacked their POSITION.  Doing that makes me a debater.




Attacking a position with apparent great disdain and disagreeing with that same position are two entirely different things and are received entirely differently in most cases.


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## Huntinfool (May 17, 2010)

earl said:


> Christianity and the Muslim faith are dependant on exclusivity . They are an all or nothing faith and call on their faithful to defend their God to the death .



I agree with the first sentence and I agree with the all or nothing part of the second.  However, on the rest, I think you're letting your belief about religion in general blur the lines.


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## TheBishop (May 17, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Attacking a position with apparent great disdain and disagreeing with that same position are two entirely different things and are received entirely differently in most cases.



I agree. But I am not ashamed for attacking a position with a passion that could, in all things, be considered a great disdain.  I'm as guilty as most about subjects  I care enough to debate.


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## Huntinfool (May 17, 2010)

Have at it my man.  I'm not condemning you for doing so.  But do not complain when your passion is met with equal passion from the opposite direction.  That's all I'm saying.

If you give it, be prepared to take it as well....fair enough?


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## TheBishop (May 17, 2010)

I am not condeming anyone for attacking my positions with passion, I would rather you do that. I like passionate debates you will not hear any complaints here. But to call me out and say that I'm here to do nothing but evil and that I am an aggressor, is an assination of character, and completely incorrect.


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## earl (May 17, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> I agree with the first sentence and I agree with the all or nothing part of the second.  However, on the rest, I think you're letting your belief about religion in general blur the lines.





There are numerous examples of the last part of my statement. You may not agree that the acts were committed by Christians ,but none the less they claimed to be Christians.


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## formula1 (May 17, 2010)

earl said:


> Christianity and the Muslim faith are dependant on exclusivity . They are an all or nothing faith and call on their faithful to defend their God to the death .



But Christians (at least true ones) will not make suicide pacs to destroy the infidel nor will they inflict death upon themselves or others in the name of their God.  You might think history says otherwise, but go back and look at the parentheses. 

The Kingdom we espouse is not of this world nor is it established by the ways of the world.  It is established by the Love and the Power of Christ, one changed heart at a time.


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## thedeacon (May 17, 2010)

Christiananity is the only way to God, the only way to God. Thats what my bible says. Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world and You cannot have your sins forgiven without Jesus Christ

Its just that simple. There is no debating that in my book. Believe it or be condemed.


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## christianhunter (May 17, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> Please show me were I showed disrespect.  Show me were I responded to a position, and was out of line. If people are defending anything against me it is becuase I attacked their POSITION.  Doing that makes me a debater.
> 
> I'm sorry you feel the way you do.  I assure you, you are making a premature judgement.  That is your choice.  I do not seek to discourage anybodys beliefs, or tear down your God.  I do however wish to see an end to religious zealotry, and intolerance.   That leads to nowhere but bad places.  I beleive ALL religions have merit but none has exclusivity.



Fence straddling,it would seem.Lets see in your first post I was a tyrant,a friend used loosely,and unamerican.Reminded of the Constitution,and further bashed.Hmmmmm,I think something is amiss.An atheist can say what they think,but a Christian can not.Seems unconstitutional to me,I thought I had Freedom of Speech,and Freedom of Religion.I think if you look hard at your first post,you will find disrespect.


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## Huntinfool (May 18, 2010)

earl said:


> There are numerous examples of the last part of my statement. You may not agree that the acts were committed by Christians ,but none the less they claimed to be Christians.



Then say "Christians" (or probably more correctly, those who do things in the name of Christianity)....not "Christianity".  Christianity does nothing of the sort.  Islam, on the other hand....


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## Huntinfool (May 18, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Fence straddling,it would seem.Lets see in your first post I was a tyrant,a friend used loosely,and unamerican.Reminded of the Constitution,and further bashed.Hmmmmm,I think something is amiss.An atheist can say what they think,but a Christian can not.Seems unconstitutional to me,I thought I had Freedom of Speech,and Freedom of Religion.I think if you look hard at your first post,you will find disrespect.



No....he was just "attacking your position with passion" man.  Can't you see that?


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## TheBishop (May 18, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Fence straddling,it would seem.Lets see in your first post I was a tyrant,a friend used loosely,and unamerican.Reminded of the Constitution,and further bashed.Hmmmmm,I think something is amiss.An atheist can say what they think,but a Christian can not.Seems unconstitutional to me,I thought I had Freedom of Speech,and Freedom of Religion.I think if you look hard at your first post,you will find disrespect.



No I did not say you were a tyrant read my post agian.  I explained my position. Your post was tyrannical in nature. You wish to silence all opposition to your views that was made clear. I never said anything about christians being able to voice their opinion for I hold free speech in high regard.  I think you need to go back and read my post agian, and apply it to what you wrote.  I understand it is harder to attack my position, so attack my character.  If i show disrespect trust me you will not have to look hard to find it.


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## Huntinfool (May 18, 2010)

Just a quick lesson from some counseling training.....you are not allowed to be the determiner of whether someone feels disrespected.

You may not have intended it to be disrespectful.  But whether it was received that way is not up to you.  So your options are either "I'm sorry I made you feel that way" or "get over it".


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## TheBishop (May 18, 2010)

Just a quick lesson in debate.  If you feel disrepected becuase your position or argument has been compromised, and your character was not directly assualted, then you need to reevaluate your stance and get over it. I shall feel no remoarse if peoples feelings get hurt becuase I highlighted fallacies in their argument.


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## Huntinfool (May 18, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> Just a quick lesson in debate.  If you feel disrepected becuase your position or argument has been compromised, and your character was not directly assualted, then you need to reevaluate your stance and get over it. I shall feel no remoarse if peoples feelings get hurt becuase I highlighted fallacies in their argument.



Point in case....
Exhibit A....
Prime example....

I bet your wife LOVES bringing up hurt feelings with you.   Your light is not shining through very well today my man.


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## TheBishop (May 18, 2010)

You know nothing of my light, for it shines brighter everyday and it is not for you to see.


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## Huntinfool (May 18, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> You know nothing of my light, for it shines brighter everyday and it is not for you to see.



Okie Dokie....



You do have one thing right...I definitely do not see it most of the time.  Apparently a bunch of others don't either.  

If I'm honest, I hear a LOT of my former self in your posts and that concerns me for you (I know, I know...don't worry about me...just worry about yourself).


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## TheBishop (May 18, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Okie Dokie....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not most of the time all of the time.  It is not FOR you to see.  You might be able to graps the jist of it but never comprehend my light.  It is in its very essence mine and mine alone. No on is suppose to, as I beleive, it is individual. 

Your concern for me is unwarranted. I assure you, we view the world in a different light, but there is common ground among us all. If you see parallels in thought between us it's becuase we have all sought answers to the same questions, its how we arrived at our conclusions we differ.


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## Huntinfool (May 18, 2010)

Let me say this so you follow me a bit better.  Just as we claim "fruit" from the impact of the Holy Spirit on our lives...Should I not be able to see the fruit from your "light"?


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## TheBishop (May 18, 2010)

Good analogy, and I guess you could see the benefits from my light in my life. It would require more definition of both. Then I beleive you could only grasp the nature of it, not see it within my terms or possess it yourself.


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## christianhunter (May 18, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> No I did not say you were a tyrant read my post agian.  I explained my position. Your post was tyrannical in nature. You wish to silence all opposition to your views that was made clear. I never said anything about christians being able to voice their opinion for I hold free speech in high regard.  I think you need to go back and read my post agian, and apply it to what you wrote.  I understand it is harder to attack my position, so attack my character.  If i show disrespect trust me you will not have to look hard to find it.



Your words fail you,you have gone from disrespect,to a threatening demeaner.


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## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

I'm simply not seeing that, CH.

But the OP does reflect a desire to "silence" or limit the voicing of opinions and views that differ from your own.
Most folks simply accept there will be much debate found in the subjects of religion and politics.


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## christianhunter (May 18, 2010)

TheBishop;  If i show disrespect trust me you will not have to look hard to find it.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Here you go WT.


----------



## TheBishop (May 18, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Your words fail you,you have gone from disrespect,to a threatening demeaner.



Agian with the attack method.  Are you liberal? I do not mean to pry but that is straight from their playbook.  Instead of disproove, discredit, is that right? Agian show me were I have been threatening or disrespectful. You either have trouble reading or comprehending.  I'm not sure which, but I assure you I have been neither of what you accuse me.  I'm sorry for being brash _this time _but your repeated attempts to destroy my character are getting tiring.


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## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

CH, TB simply sounds like a man who can be honest with his potential faults or shortcomings.


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## christianhunter (May 18, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> I'm simply not seeing that, CH.
> 
> But the OP does reflect a desire to "silence" or limit the voicing of opinions and views that differ from your own.
> Most folks simply accept there will be much debate found in the subjects of religion and politics.



As is the old cliche',of discussing Religion and Politics.Christianity for those who Believe,is not a "Religion",but the way of life,of all who Believe.I was not speaking in terms of every individual post and/or Thread posted.I was speaking of Threads directed towards Christian discusion,in which a couple always find a way to derail.No silence,no exclusion,but most assuredly,a call for respect.


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## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Christianity for those who Believe,is not a "Religion",but the way of life,of all who Believe.



Do you give that same consideration to Muslims and Hindus?  They see THEIR belief system as exclusive too.
If either one was to start a thread promoting their personal view or opinion would you remain silent, or would you discuss and debate the key points?


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## christianhunter (May 18, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Do you give that same consideration to Muslims and Hindus?  They see THEIR belief system as exclusive too.
> If either one was to start a thread promoting their personal view or opinion would you remain silent, or would you discuss and debate the key points?



I have personally been acquainted with two muslims,and maybe a couple of Hindus.If you mention The NAME of JESUS,they walk away,or simply change the subject.I have met atheists,they are unchanging,as are those in a cult.It is not up to me to change or convert anyone.It is up to me,to share The Hope that is within me.


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## christianhunter (May 18, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> Agian with the attack method.  Are you liberal? I do not mean to pry but that is straight from their playbook.  Instead of disproove, discredit, is that right? Agian show me were I have been threatening or disrespectful. You either have trouble reading or comprehending.  I'm not sure which, but I assure you I have been neither of what you accuse me.  I'm sorry for being brash _this time _but your repeated attempts to destroy my character are getting tiring.



Sorry,but you are handling your character,well enough on your own.


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## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> I have personally been acquainted with two muslims,and maybe a couple of Hindus.If you mention The NAME of JESUS,they walk away,or simply change the subject.I have met atheists,they are unchanging,as are those in a cult.It is not up to me to change or convert anyone.It is up to me,to share The Hope that is within me.



Sorry, but that's hardly enough to qualify as a basic sample set, and seems more akin to stereotyping.

One can express their views and opinions pretty much any time and any place.  But one can never be suprised when responding views are presented in direct opposition or indifference.  Sometimes the door gets slammed in one's face.  Other times the invitation is given to share tea and crumpet while deeper discussion takes place.


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## christianhunter (May 18, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Sorry, but that's hardly enough to qualify as a basic sample set, and seems more akin to stereotyping.
> 
> One can express their views and opinions pretty much any time and any place.  But one can never be suprised when responding views are presented in direct opposition or indifference.  Sometimes the door gets slammed in one's face.  Other times the invitation is given to share tea and crumpet while deeper discussion takes place.



WT,in all honesty,are we the Christians of this forum,not constantly stereotyped by the unbeliever and the atheist?

Remember 9-11-01,Islam at its worst.Watch the Nightly News,with reports on the Middle East.Islam wants you dead,Christianity wants you to have eternal life.I really think there is a big gap between these two.In an effort,to express your feelings,I do not think I would choose a terroristic cult to convey a point.JMHO.


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## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> WT,in all honesty,are we the Christians of this forum,not constantly stereotyped by the unbeliever and the atheist?
> 
> Remember 9-11-01,Islam at its worst.Watch the Nightly News,with reports on the Middle East.Islam wants you dead,Christianity wants you to have eternal life.I really think there is a big gap between these two.In an effort,to express your feelings,I do not think I would choose a terroristic cult to convey a point.JMHO.



My friend, the "Christians" of this forum are so varied and different they are basically impossible to stereotype.

Nearly every subject regarding the "Christian" belief system is discussed with a resulting varied response and lack of concensus.

Many of the "unbelievers" and "Atheists" understand the religious belief system better than many professed "Christians" do.

Now, to state all Islamic followers follow the extremist ideals of Al Q, Bin Laden, or the 911 hijackers is quite intellectually dishonest.  Remember they are extremists who wish for eternal life rewards too.

Not all Christians are abortion clinic bombers or poision drinking snake handlers either.  Stating that as being true would be just as intellectually dishonest.


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## christianhunter (May 18, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> My friend, the "Christians" of this forum are so varied and different they are basically impossible to stereotype.
> 
> Nearly every subject regarding the "Christian" belief system is discussed with a resulting varied response and lack of concensus.
> 
> ...



In Islam,we are dealing with sects.True some of them claim,they are peaceful,and not terrorists.In the secular community,not behind the Pulpit,we find that they all hate "The Great Satan"(America).Children are taught gun use,and use of explosives,and hatred for America.This does not come from a Pastor,Denomination,or Church in particular.This comes from CNN,MSNBC,ABC,FOX,and CBS.I'm not being intellectually dishonest at all.We should not let disdain,cloud out the truth,my Friend.How many of our young men and women,have we lost,who gave their all,To combat this cultic,and misguided "Religion"?


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## earl (May 18, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Then say "Christians" (or probably more correctly, those who do things in the name of Christianity)....not "Christianity".  Christianity does nothing of the sort.  Islam, on the other hand....





I know you know you bible better than to say that . Or did you miss the posts about how intolerant God is ?


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## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> In Islam,we are dealing with sects.True some of them claim,they are peaceful,and not terrorists.In the secular community,not behind the Pulpit,we find that they all hate "The Great Satan"(America).Children are taught gun use,and use of explosives,and hatred for America.This does not come from a Pastor,Denomination,or Church in particular.This comes from CNN,MSNBC,ABC,FOX,and CBS.I'm not being intellectually dishonest at all.We should not let disdain,cloud out the truth,my Friend.How many of our young men and women,have we lost,who gave their all,To combat this cultic,and misguided "Religion"?



Do you really want to go there?  Want to start discussing the lives lost during The Crusades?


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## earl (May 18, 2010)

If the Muslim world had the same history of stirring the pot that the US has had in numerous countries ,we might feel the same. Fighting another country's religion while claiming religious freedom at home ,rings false.


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## Ronnie T (May 18, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> Not most of the time all of the time.  It is not FOR you to see.  You might be able to graps the jist of it but never comprehend my light.  It is in its very essence mine and mine alone. No on is suppose to, as I beleive, it is individual.
> 
> Your concern for me is unwarranted. I assure you, we view the world in a different light, but there is common ground among us all. If you see parallels in thought between us it's becuase we have all sought answers to the same questions, its how we arrived at our conclusions we differ.




Are you making this up as you go?


.


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## Ronnie T (May 18, 2010)

This Spiritual forum has fallen off the cliff.

The atheist are now claiming the be the experts of the spiritual nature of Christianity.  
They claim to be spiritual even though they don't believe in anything but themselves.  That AIN't spirituality.

And Bishop, understand this, the key word in the title of this particular forum is Spiritual, not Debate.

I don't know who's fault it is, is it the moderator's fault for trying so hard not to appear to favor the spiritual folks, or is it the fault of the spiritual people.
Maybe it's our fault for being duped into discussions with uninterested, uncaring, unbelievers who come here to debate with their earthly opposite?

Anyway, I think it might soon be time for me to move on.  Maybe to an atheist forum so I can hassle those brilliant, scientific minded, inner lite(like a refrigerator) people.

God has more important things for me to do.
Think I'll clean my toe nails.


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## formula1 (May 18, 2010)

*Re:*

RonnieT,

Don't go anywhere, we need your wisdom!  I was thinking of scraping paint, but cleaning toenails will work too.


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## christianhunter (May 18, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Do you really want to go there?  Want to start discussing the lives lost during The Crusades?



Why wouldn't I want to go there?
Many things have been done in the name of Christianity,that were not CHRIST-Like at all.It is certainly not the fault of THE LORD.Man is incapable of controlling his quest for dominance and independence,take the humanists and atheists,shaking their fist at an ALMIGHTY GOD.Islam is an evil,corrupt and despicable belief.They are evil in their actions,and their words.Would you go to Iraq,and wave an American Flag?
Any middle eastern country,but Israel,would probably find you shot down,and dead.We've lost thousands of our own,in these modern days,and you come back with a centuries old heresy.I don't think the headlines,of recent times,even relate to the hate crimes of the Crusades.


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## christianhunter (May 18, 2010)

Don't go anywhere Ronnie,we need your wisdom here.


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## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> This Spiritual forum has fallen off the cliff.
> 
> The atheist are now claiming the be the experts of the spiritual nature of Christianity.
> They claim to be spiritual even though they don't believe in anything but themselves.  That AIN't spirituality.
> ...



Ronnie, you are putting words into my mouth.  Your statement above, which I have underlined, is not what I said at all.

If you feel that open discussion of different viewpoints is a waste of your time, then yes, I can understand feeling a need to move on.  I've been there myself lately.
I hope you do not.  I highly value your imput here.  I know others here do as well.

It's clearly become a situation where you are agitated and aggravated, and to even suggest the management of the site might be the reason for your feeling the SDDS has "fallen off the cliff" is simply a weak shot across the bow.  

Stay.  Participate.  Share.  It's not wasted time or energy.
10x the number of folks that post read the posts.
Someone reading will gain from your posts.
I know I have many times.


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## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Why wouldn't I want to go there?
> Many things have been done in the name of Christianity,that were not CHRIST-Like at all.It is certainly not the fault of THE LORD.Man is incapable of controlling his quest for dominance and independence,take the humanists and atheists,shaking their fist at an ALMIGHTY GOD.Islam is an evil,corrupt and despicable belief.They are evil in their actions,and their words.Would you go to Iraq,and wave an American Flag?
> Any middle eastern country,but Israel,would probably find you shot down,and dead.We've lost thousands of our own,in these modern days,and you come back with a centuries old heresy.I don't think the headlines,of recent times,even relate to the hate crimes of the Crusades.



Huh?
Are you serious?

Look, I'm out of this one CH.  We can go no further.


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## Inthegarge (May 18, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> My friend, the "Christians" of this forum are so varied and different they are basically impossible to stereotype.
> 
> Nearly every subject regarding the "Christian" belief system is discussed with a resulting varied response and lack of concensus.
> 
> ...



WTM, please explain this statement.................Thx RW


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## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

Anyone who thinks all Atheists are lacking in the knowledge of Christianity would be sorely mistaken.  The majority of them have studied religious belief systems in detail looking for their evidences and proofs prior to making a decision to reject it.

A significant portion of those who consider themselves "believers, Christians, and followers of Jesus" hardly understand the basic tenents of the belief system and its holy book.  It is reflected in their mis-interpretations of Bible passages, their arguments between themselves over doctrine and faith and the hubris some exhibit about their being right and all others are wrong.

Many don't know the "why" they believe what they do at all.  They have let someone else do their thinking, and simply follow along.  

Now, that by no means is reflective of the whole.  But it is significant enough to be mentioned.


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## thedeacon (May 18, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Anyone who thinks all Atheists are lacking in the knowledge of Christianity would be sorely mistaken.  The majority of them have studied religious belief systems in detail looking for their evidences and proofs prior to making a decision to reject it.
> 
> A significant portion of those who consider themselves "believers, Christians, and followers of Jesus" hardly understand the basic tenents of the belief system and its holy book.  It is reflected in their mis-interpretations of Bible passages, their arguments between themselves over doctrine and faith and the hubris some exhibit about their being right and all others are wrong.
> 
> ...



With this I can agree.

There is more to the story though.


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## christianhunter (May 18, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Huh?
> Are you serious?
> 
> Look, I'm out of this one CH.  We can go no further.



I will Buddy,no harm intended.The Crusades were unjustly enacted because the gentile Crusaders wanted to persecute The Jewish people,because they thought they killed and crucified THE LORD.This is more or less the consensus.The British empire,whether we want to admit it or not,had their stint on World dominance also.


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## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

thedeacon said:


> With this I can agree.
> 
> There is more to the story though.




I've always been quite forthcoming and honest on here.
I've never belittled anyone, nor have I attempted to shake or negatively impact anyone's faith. 

I would like to hear your opinion and viewpoint.


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## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> I will Buddy,no harm intended.The Crusades were unjustly enacted because the gentile Crusaders wanted to persecute The Jewish people,because they thought they killed and crucified THE LORD.This is more or less the consensus.The British empire,whether we want to admit it or not,had their stint on World dominance also.



Did not make it right then, nor does any terroristic action taken by extremist Islam make them any more right.


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## christianhunter (May 18, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Did not make it right then, nor does any terroristic action taken by extremist Islam make them any more right.



Of course it doesn't.Terrorism is terrorism,no matter what flag or proposed "faith" it goes under.True Christianity,when THE LORD guides it,has a different outcome.During the days of The Law,entire races of people were destroyed.We are in Grace now,and the plan of THE LORD is different.We will have war until the end of time,there is no doubt.We can find the reasons for war,and the outcome in Scripture today.Muslims are bitter from an ordained sentence given to them millennia ago.From the very start,with one man to the untold millions of them today you have rebellion.Their quest is an evil quest,and the outcome is a certainty.You have to believe in this certainty,to appreciate the reasons.


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## Ronnie T (May 18, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Ronnie, you are putting words into my mouth.  Your statement above, which I have underlined, is not what I said at all.
> 
> If you feel that open discussion of different viewpoints is a waste of your time, then yes, I can understand feeling a need to move on.  I've been there myself lately.
> I hope you do not.  I highly value your imput here.  I know others here do as well.
> ...



I didn't write my comment based on anything you said.  Actually, I only breeze through most of those posts anyway.  They all say the same thing.  

Now, I'm through with that left foot, lets see if I can get the right one up on this knee.....


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## Ronnie T (May 18, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Anyone who thinks all Atheists are lacking in the knowledge of Christianity would be sorely mistaken.  The majority of them have studied religious belief systems in detail looking for their evidences and proofs prior to making a decision to reject it.
> 
> A significant portion of those who consider themselves "believers, Christians, and followers of Jesus" hardly understand the basic tenents of the belief system and its holy book.  It is reflected in their mis-interpretations of Bible passages, their arguments between themselves over doctrine and faith and the hubris some exhibit about their being right and all others are wrong.
> 
> ...



A person who's only been a Christian for two weeks but believes God's word is in a much better position than you and the others who love to "Debate" the shortcoming and "errors" of that very Gospel.

You THINK you understand and know it!!!!


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## thedeacon (May 18, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> This Spiritual forum has fallen off the cliff.
> 
> The atheist are now claiming the be the experts of the spiritual nature of Christianity.
> They claim to be spiritual even though they don't believe in anything but themselves.  That AIN't spirituality.
> ...



Man you spoke a mouthful there. If you put your foot in your mouth please move it over and let me get mine in there with it.

I would love to have a religious discussion once in awhile.

Where are our moderators anyway?


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## Diogenes (May 19, 2010)

Hurt feelings?  

We’re reduced to censoring because someone’s ‘feelings’ might get hurt if someone else points out that they are wrong in their logic?  Grow a bit beyond thin-skinned defensive posturing, learn a bit of logic, and try again . . . 

“…but most assuredly,a call for respect. . . “    Well, if ‘respect’ is equated only and entirely with agreement, as it now appears here, then it might be a good idea to look the word up, and try again . . . 

“. . . In an effort,to express your feelings,I do not think I would choose a terroristic cult to convey a point. . . .”   And, if 9/11 is your sole reference, you forget that Christianity spent many hundreds of years being a terroristic cult, literally burning opponents at the stake – do not pretend that you can condemn from a platform of lamb-like innocence.   There is no reasonable way to identify yourself with an organized belief system and also separate yourself from its origins and history.  You cannot condemn other beliefs, in their entirety, based on the odd actions of a few extremist members of that ‘faith,’ while washing your own hands of the actions of the extremist members of your own, which atrocities also continue in the name of ‘Christianity’ to this day.   Temper your views with a bit of reality, and a bit of broad-minded education, then try again . . .      

“In Islam,we are dealing with sects.”  And in Christianity, we only have the Catholics, the Baptists, the Methodists, the Lutherans, the Episcopalians, the LDS, the Congregationalists, the Greek Orthodox, the Mennonites, and a few dozen other ‘denominations’ . . . these, certainly, are not ‘sects’.  Right?  Look inwards a bit, and tend to your own house before once again condemning the houses of others with a single ‘sound-bite’ bit of prejudicial nonsense, then try again . . .   

“Anyway, I think it might soon be time for me to move on. Maybe to an atheist forum so I can hassle those brilliant, scientific minded, inner lite(like a refrigerator) people.”   Good luck with that – actual intellectuals will quite likely have you retreating back here with your tail between your legs in moments . . . seeking the protection of your like-minded culture of agreement over thought.  But I would encourage you to broaden your horizons and give it a try . . . 

“Where are our moderators anyway?”   They seem to be pretty busy deleting many of my posts without explanation, so you can rest assured that they are paying attention and appear to be wholly on your side . . .

Spirituality, gentlemen, would necessarily need to be defended on rational grounds.  Decisions that are made rationally would necessarily mean that those decisions are made based on some grounds of truth.  Truth is normally used as a word that refers to some correspondence with reality or perhaps with some inference that has demonstrated itself to be sound by experience.  Blind acceptance is not ‘Spiritual’ in any fashion, it is merely an abdication of responsibility.  

If you wish to state, “I Believe (fill in the blank),” and when asked why, your only answer is that, “It Says so in the Gospel of (fill in the blank),” then it ought to cross your own mind immediately that you are treading on very thin ice.  If you are merely doing as you think you were told to do, and your sole goal is to obey what you were told, then you, as a person, have removed yourself from your own life.  Worse, you are identifying the temporal (a set of writings) with something that claims to transcend the temporal (an all-powerful, all-knowing, invisible motive force), and are handing your life over not to that Force, but to those writings.   

But, just the same, if your intentions are not your own, but were dictated to you (in those writings) to the point that you identify those ‘instructions’ as actually being the same as your own desires, then you are still blameless for the results, personally.  In blindly believing and obeying, you can never be wrong, either way, whether your instructions were issued from a General or from on High – so far as your behavior is concerned, it makes no difference – only that you ‘believe’ that you were ‘commanded’.  Only the ones who handed out that instruction can turn out to be wrong, in the end, so either way you’re off the hook.  It is a form of mindless genius, this belief thing, when you look at it – To paraphrase a line from Pinker, a toadstool would be given a genius award for accomplishing, with unerring precision, the goal it set of simply sitting exactly where it is sitting.

Choice might enter into it, if one feels somehow superior to a toadstool, but only to the extent that one can question one’s condition.  If you cannot, and are bound only and exclusively by a single set of temporal writings to occupy the position you occupy, and have no realistic or rational option so far as you see things, then that position alone, oddly enough, is not your destiny – it is your choice – made by you alone.  But, again, when anyone attempts to impose a choice like that on others it can hardly be a surprise when they ask questions and desire some rational justifications.  Though it may strike many believers as heresy, the majority don’t really want to be toadstools.

Good thing, too.  Otherwise all of human progress would have stopped in the 14th century.  Truthfully, nearly everything that is around you, including the computer you are using to obdurately refute the facts, exists solely because enough folks survived the purges and forced conversions of the Christians early on to thumb their noses at ancient dogma and press on regardless.  ‘Doctrine’ has been continuously revised, updated, rationalized, re-written, re-interpreted, and just plain remade out of whole cloth with each new bit of actually progress in human knowledge.  This is easily demonstrated fact.  The ‘believers,’ for the most part, did not contribute to this progress.  They attempted to prevent it, because it failed to meet their doctrine of the moment.  

Any fool can try to rationalize something after the fact.  But those same fools cannot deny their role in trying to prevent that fact from being revealed.  So how about dropping the ‘Poor, Innocent, Chaste, Lily-White and Perfectly Well-Intentioned Christian Persecuted By EVIL Non-Believers’ act.  Huh?  It makes you look like a bunch of whining children, pretending that your evil invisible friend actually broke Mom’s lamp, while you sat with your hands folded.  

There is no single assignation of evil to any group, and no single assignation of good to any other.  Suggesting otherwise, even by reference, is even antithetical to your own personal crusade.


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## Huntinfool (May 19, 2010)

earl said:


> I know you know you bible better than to say that . Or did you miss the posts about how intolerant God is ?



Intolerant, yes.....asks me to strap a bomb to my chest?  Haven't seen that yet.


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## Israel (May 19, 2010)

Perhaps God just wants everyone to speak what is truly in their hearts. Once things are out in the open and hit the light...we can easily see the Lord's judgements in the matter.


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## earl (May 19, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Intolerant, yes.....asks me to strap a bomb to my chest?  Haven't seen that yet.




How about shooting abortion doctors ? Starving children to death ? Denying medical treatment ?

Surely you knew that was coming.


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## gtparts (May 19, 2010)

earl said:


> How about shooting abortion doctors ? Starving children to death ? Denying medical treatment ?
> 
> Surely you knew that was coming.



Those things you bring up are absolutely contrary to the character of God, so it may well be concluded that there are those who are mentally ill or horribly deceived or both.

Based on many of the threads and posts I have seen here, there are many who are deceived, and many of those, happily so.

To assert ones faith in Jesus and then to live in contradiction to His instruction negates the possibility of being in relationship with Him.


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## WTM45 (May 19, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> A person who's only been a Christian for two weeks but believes God's word is in a much better position than you and the others who love to "Debate" the shortcoming and "errors" of that very Gospel.
> ...



Better position for what?  Spirituality?  Debate?  Discussion?  Study?

Is that simply because one has faith there exists a deity, and that there is a ghost that resides within them based on the words of a Holy Book?


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## Huntinfool (May 19, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Anyone who thinks all Atheists are lacking in the knowledge of Christianity would be sorely mistaken.



Knowledge and understanding are entirely different my friend.


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## Huntinfool (May 19, 2010)

earl said:


> How about shooting abortion doctors ? Starving children to death ? Denying medical treatment ?
> 
> Surely you knew that was coming.



All things done in the name of God......

If I go kill 1000 people today and claim I did it in the name of Allah....how exactly would you interpret that?


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## jbowes89 (May 19, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> the key word in the title of this particular forum is Spiritual, not Debate.



Are you blind? 
Spiritual Discussions, DEBATE and Study.


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## WTM45 (May 19, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Knowledge and understanding are entirely different my friend.



What is the major difference in regards to religious belief systems?

Is it that understanding is complete acceptance through faith, and knowledge is simply looking at facts and proofs without faith?


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## Huntinfool (May 19, 2010)

I would say that's pretty close (though I haven't thought through an explanation yet) with the exception that I would add "without faith and experience" maybe.

Let me put it this way.  I have a knowledge of the how my wife gives birth to our children.  I know every biological thing that happens and I also know that it's incredibly painful and requires extreme physical exertion....but I do not understand it because I've not lived it and never experienced it.

Difference is I cannot experience it and all can experience what we're discussing....but you get my point I hope.


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## WTM45 (May 19, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> I would say that's pretty close (though I haven't thought through an explanation yet) with the exception that I would add "without faith and experience" maybe.
> 
> Let me put it this way.  I have a knowledge of the how my wife gives birth to our children.  I know every biological thing that happens and I also know that it's incredibly painful and requires extreme physical exertion....but I do not understand it because I've not lived it and never experienced it.
> 
> Difference is I cannot experience it and all can experience what we're discussing....but you get my point I hope.



I do get your point.  Well said.

But, can we agree, that all of what humans consider spiritual experience is completely subjective, and could easily be considered an emotional response to an outside stimulus?

I can not prove there is a deity.  I can not prove there is a "Holy Ghost."  I can not prove there was a human being who was part deity.  I can not disprove those either.

But, somewhere along the line, one has to either accept their existance through faith or reject it through lack of evidence.
I simply find the former, faith, to be the most difficult subject I personally have ever studied and investigated.
It's been a lifetime endeavor.


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## gtparts (May 19, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> I do get your point.  Well said.
> 
> But, can we agree, that all of what humans consider spiritual experience is completely subjective, and could easily be considered an emotional response to an outside stimulus?
> 
> ...



I would suggest that because neither position is provable on the basis of scientific evidence, that evidence or lack thereof is completely inconclusive. 

The decision is then reduced to accepting on the basis of exercising faith or rejecting on the basis that one lacks faith. 

Look at it this way. Spending ones time trying to amass evidence in support of or in opposition to the same has proven fruitless from the beginning of time. The Bible confirms this. Many saw miracles, but ultimately the issue in every individual's life was, and is, faith. 

So, if one really wants the answer, it will be found in faith, having already familiarized themselves with the lacking side (which provides no answers)
.
Interestingly enough, the best place to start is in the Word of God. Reading, studying, meditating on the Word of God is the surest way to gain understanding of God, what characteristics are integral to His personality and nature, and how mankind fits into His creation. You give it a genuine, honest commitment for one year and end each study period in prayer to God, for Him to open you to the Truth and provide those who have already walked that path to encourage you. If you truly want the answer, He will give it to you and so much more.


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## WTM45 (May 19, 2010)

That's using the Bible to prove itself.
Hmmmmmm...

If one wants to exercise faith to answer their deeper questions, I say go for it.
But be careful, as one can easily be let to believe and accept a lot.


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## gtparts (May 19, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> That's using the Bible to prove itself.
> Hmmmmmm...
> 
> If one wants to exercise faith to answer their deeper questions, I say go for it.
> But be careful, as one can easily be let to believe and accept a lot.




That one slipped past you while you were focused on proof........, again.



Seeking first the Kingdom of Heaven, is how one finds God revealed. Just offering the most likely place to start ones search, ...... assuming one has an interest in such things. Seeking or demanding proof is an absolute waste of your time. If you really want to know, you must seek Him where He may be found. Only then can you find Him everywhere, in every circumstance.


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## WTM45 (May 19, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Seeking or demanding proof is a absolute waste of your time.



Then why do humans have that desire?
Is that a mistake in programming?

I'm more than ready to stand and face the judgement of my using every tool at my disposal to find answers to my questions.  
I can say with honesty I HAVE gone through the Bible education and study route.  Years.  Born into it.  Elementary, primary, secondary and some post secondary as well.  Paid the student loans with my own sweat and hard work.
My Bibles are on my desk right beside the monitor.  

I'd think a creator deity would have expected I do that, and probably more.
I continue my search.

Thanks for your imput and viewpoints!


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## gtparts (May 19, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Then why do humans have that desire?
> Is that a mistake in programming?
> 
> I'm more than ready to stand and face the judgement of my using every tool at my disposal to find answers to my questions.
> ...



I think the desire is natural (God-given) and serves us well in many areas of life. When it (the scientific approach) becomes the obsessive methodology for understanding God, we have exceeded its intent and usefulness for the application. Having read your recent post on another thread, it is clear that you have exhaustively pursued an answer and the best you have come up with is, "I still don't understand." Perhaps the long journey will end with this.

Lord, I don't know why you allowed those things to happen that have fueled my confusion and have driven my anger for these many years. Even denying or doubting your existence has not really brought me peace. More than answers, I have come to realize my need for you. If I must suffer the pain of loss, I'd rather face that with you , than without you. I need the mercy and grace only you can provide. I need the healing and peace that comes only from you. I know I cannot undo all that I have done that is unpleasing to you, but, in your forgiveness, I can move forward to where you would have me, living the life you would have me live. Forgive me Lord, for ever doubting you.

The choice is still yours.


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## earl (May 19, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> All things done in the name of God......
> 
> If I go kill 1000 people today and claim I did it in the name of Allah....how exactly would you interpret that?




I would say you were changing the subject to avoid agreeing with what I said .


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## christianhunter (May 19, 2010)

gtparts said:


> I think the desire is natural (God-given) and serves us well in many areas of life. When it (the scientific approach) becomes the obsessive methodology for understanding God, we have exceeded its intent and usefulness for the application. Having read your recent post on another thread, it is clear that you have exhaustively pursued an answer and the best you have come up with is, "I still don't understand." Perhaps the long journey will end with this.
> 
> Lord, I don't know why you allowed those things to happen that have fueled my confusion and have driven my anger for these many years. Even denying or doubting your existence has not really brought me peace. More than answers, I have come to realize my need for you. If I must suffer the pain of loss, I'd rather face that with you , than without you. I need the mercy and grace only you can provide. I need the healing and peace that comes only from you. I know I cannot undo all that I have done that is unpleasing to you, but, in your forgiveness, I can move forward to where you would have me, living the life you would have me live. Forgive me Lord, for ever doubting you.
> 
> The choice is still yours.



Refreshing change,in presenting a post Brother.I applaud you for it.
Great witness!


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## thedeacon (May 19, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Refreshing change,in presenting a post Brother.I applaud you for it.
> Great witness!



I agree, I can see maybe I have been a little to judgemental to a lot of people. Please forgive me. It won't happen again.


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## christianhunter (May 19, 2010)

thedeacon said:


> I agree, I can see maybe I have been a little to judgemental to a lot of people. Please forgive me. It won't happen again.



We are all guilty Brother,we are human.My Glass House has more stones going out,than those coming in.


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## Huntinfool (May 20, 2010)

earl said:


> I would say you were changing the subject to avoid agreeing with what I said .



The answer is....I would be a murderous maniac who has nothing to do with the religion that I claim.


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## jmharris23 (May 20, 2010)

Everyone may want to look here: 

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=541256


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