# big bullets and powder?



## snook24 (Dec 31, 2011)

I've been looking into trying some 535gr bullets for my 54 cal tc system one. Id like something that will drop a big hog where it stands. I've used lighter loads that work fine now its just something new to try. Question is does it have more knock down power moving slower with 70gr powder or moving faster with 100gr to blow through the pig! And I know shoot what's most accurate but I'm wondering about the knock down power. Thanks!


----------



## tv_racin_fan (Dec 31, 2011)

Anything traveling at a faster rate of speed is going to transfer more energy to whatever it hits. More powder = faster rate of speed = more energy to transfer. 

Knockdown power is sort of non exsistant in reality.. I forget who but they postulated that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. What that means in laymans terms is if the round is going to knock something down on the one end it will also knock something down on the other.. more or less.


----------



## snook24 (Dec 31, 2011)

Makes sense thanks...I was thinking that if it was moving slower and stoppped in the animal it would feel more inpact versus it zipping through


----------



## tv_racin_fan (Dec 31, 2011)

THAT is entirely possible same as if it does or doesn't expand. I should have said anything moving at a faster rate of speed has the capability to transfer more energy. If it stops in the animal it will have transfered every drop of it's energy.. if it zips on thru some of it will have remained with the bullet.. how much would be speculative.

Those big ole bullets are made of pure soft lead and should expand right nicely no matter the speed and transer quite a bit of energy.

By the way I am in Forsyth co myself.. wouldn't mind getting a look at that rifle or hitting the range with ya one day.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jan 1, 2012)

I've shot a lot of critters over the years with both fast-moving light bullets, and slow-moving heavy bullets. Regardless of what it says on paper, I'll take the heavy, slower bullets any time for big game, as they give results in the real world, not just in ballistics tables. With that said, 535 grains seems to be maybe a bit too heavy- a lot of muzzleloading rifles aren't designed for a bullet that heavy, can build up a lot of pressure. Anything in the 350-400 grain range is plenty enough. It's hard to beat the T/C maxi-hunters for a conical.


----------



## tv_racin_fan (Jan 1, 2012)

OOO I should have also said with the weight being equal... sheesh I must have my head on wrong lately.


----------



## TJay (Jan 1, 2012)

Check out "No Excuses" bullets.  Big bullets for Big game.


----------



## collardncornbread (Jan 17, 2012)

I've shot a lot of critters over the years with both fast-moving light bullets, and slow-moving heavy bullets. Regardless of what it says on paper, I'll take the heavy, slower bullets any time for big game, as they give results in the real world, not just in ballistics tables. With that said, 535 grains seems to be maybe a bit too heavy- a lot of muzzleloading rifles aren't designed for a bullet that heavy, can build up a lot of pressure. Anything in the 350-400 grain range is plenty enough. It's hard to beat the T/C maxi-hunters for a conical. 
__________________
Ditto that. I used to pour my 54s. a 430 gr maxi. i can testify they will go in the front shoulder of a whitetail, and exit the opposite ham. Having said that I am Quiet sure all the energy that went out the exit hole didn't make him any more dead. 535 GRAINS. Do you want to beat your shoulder up like that. I can also tell you that it wont be long and you will flinch so bad from recoil, you may not could hit the side of a hog.


----------



## snook24 (Jan 23, 2012)

I shot the no excuse bullets that are 535gr with 80 gr of powder and they kick was no more than my 7-08 so we will see how they do on hogs next time I get a shot


----------



## Flintrock (Jan 23, 2012)

Here ya go.
looked it up in my Lyman manuals
My 1975 Lyman manual only listed FFFg propellant under 54 cal
My 2001 Lyman manual did not list FFFg so since I had to swap over to  different propellent,  I listed Pyrodex because most folks use a black powder substitute.
I used  28 inch barrel for the list and does not include any sabots. This should be fairly close and let you know what you want to know.
.
70 grains  3f , 220 grain  roundball  = 409 Ft/lbs  energy @100 yds
100 grains 3f ,220 grain roundball   = 492      "        "         "
70 grains   3f , 410 grain bullet         = 683      "         "         "
100 grains 3f, 410 grain bullet          = 1034    "         "         "
70 grains pyrodex  530 gr bullet       =1065     "         "         "
100 grains pyrodex530 grain bullet =1307      "        "          "


----------



## Redleaf (Jan 24, 2012)

NCHillbilly sed it,  a relatively slow soft lead conical bullet will kill way out of proportion to its paper ballistics. I've got several fast twist muzzleloaders that I hunt with and bullets in the 400-500gr range at a mv of about 1200fps will kill as good as anything there is.  The trajectory is somewhat looping, but a scope with multiple aiming points will get you to about 200yds with some practice.  My most used gun/load in this vein is a 428gr pure lead bullet with 65gr of fffg Swiss.  Knocks the everlivin snot out of em.


----------



## miles58 (Jan 24, 2012)

snook24 said:


> I've been looking into trying some 535gr bullets for my 54 cal tc system one. Id like something that will drop a big hog where it stands. I've used lighter loads that work fine now its just something new to try. Question is does it have more knock down power moving slower with 70gr powder or moving faster with 100gr to blow through the pig! And I know shoot what's most accurate but I'm wondering about the knock down power. Thanks!



It doesn't work that way with centerfire rifle bullets and there is no earthly reason to assume there is anything different about a muzzle loader.

Speed kills.  Speed with a properly constructed bullet that opens (expands) and causes cavitation as it passes through the animal destroys tissue.  If you don't do that, you are just engaging in a variation of making a hole.  Archery makes a hole, and the normal and accepted wounding losses from making a hole with an arrow are much higher than M/L guns.  If you produce good cavitation from entrance all the way through and including the exit, it's pretty bleeping difficult to better that.  The more cavitation, the better.  Bigger and slower does not increase cavitation.

Light for caliber tough bullets that retain weight well and they deform work best.  Bullets that deform (expand) and shed weight in the process work less well than bullets that expand and do not shed weight.  It is a simple matter of the work done disassembling the bullet being unavailable to do the work of moving through the animal.   With the normal bullets expanding and losing 30-50 per cent of their weight in the process and that loose being almost entirely in particles too small to see or feel you are talking about a lot of work.

It is not an accident that something like a 30-06 kills much better than a M/L gun, and that we moved from M/L guns to much more powerful center fire guns for most of our hunting.  They work better.  Today we have much better M/L bullets available, and they can easily approach center fire terminal performance.

I don't know how fast I can push 250 grain Barnes bullets safely.  I do know I can push them over my chrony at 2100-2200 FPS safely.  I do know that they make an ungodly hole through deer at 1600 FPS, and that hole goes all the way through and scrambles the chest contents thoroughly.  We don't have pigs  up here, but I don't see a pig being much better at stopping one of them than a deer.  You want you bacon parked where you hit it, you have to hit CNS or break the running parts.  

Elsewhere in this forum are some pictures I posted of a deer killed with a  250 grain Barnes T-EZ.  I put the bullet through both shoulder blades low.  I could have run a shovel handle through the deer easily.  The deer still made it fifty yards or so and for a hole that big only produced a reasonable blood trail for 30 feet or so.  The lungs were gone and the heart loose in the chest and completely shredded.  Speed did that.  An ounce of lead would have actually done less damage.  It may or may not have made it all the way through.  Been there, done that with shotguns.  An ounce of lead exiting the barrel at 1600 FPS is not fun to shoot.  Half an ounce is a lot more pleasant and can easily outperform the ounce slug.

Dave


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jan 24, 2012)

miles58 said:


> It doesn't work that way with centerfire rifle bullets and there is no earthly reason to assume there is anything different about a muzzle loader.
> 
> Speed kills.  Speed with a properly constructed bullet that opens (expands) and causes cavitation as it passes through the animal destroys tissue.  If you don't do that, you are just engaging in a variation of making a hole.  Archery makes a hole, and the normal and accepted wounding losses from making a hole with an arrow are much higher than M/L guns.  If you produce good cavitation from entrance all the way through and including the exit, it's pretty bleeping difficult to better that.  The more cavitation, the better.  Bigger and slower does not increase cavitation.
> 
> ...



We'll agree to disagree about this. Speed without mass is worthless, IMO. I've shot plenty of deer with both heavy, slow bullets and fast , light ones. From what I've seen with my own eyes, not what I read on a chart, the heavier bullets are more effective. Much more effective, at least in a ML. I don't care about cavitation and big words on ballistics charts, I care about deer either dropping in their tracks or leaving a Stevie Wonder blood trail. The big heavy bullets do it for me. Light ones just don't.  Especially in a muzzleloader. And a ML is just as deadly as a modern rifle, lost more with centerfires than MLs in my years of hunting. I hardly ever pick up a rifle anymore, I like hunting with MLs better, and they kill deer deaddeaddead with heavy bullets, seeing is believing. I wouldn't trade one big heavy solid lead ML bullet or ball for a whole box of fast, light, cavitating sabots.


----------



## fishfryer (Jan 24, 2012)

NCHillbilly said:


> We'll agree to disagree about this. Speed without mass is worthless, IMO. I've shot plenty of deer with both heavy, slow bullets and fast , light ones. From what I've seen with my own eyes, not what I read on a chart, the heavier bullets are more effective. Much more effective, at least in a ML. I don't care about cavitation and big words on ballistics charts, I care about deer either dropping in their tracks or leaving a Stevie Wonder blood trail. The big heavy bullets do it for me. Light ones just don't.  Especially in a muzzleloader. And a ML is just as deadly as a modern rifle, lost more with centerfires than MLs in my years of hunting. I hardly ever pick up a rifle anymore, I like hunting with MLs better, and they kill deer deaddeaddead with heavy bullets, seeing is believing. I wouldn't trade one big heavy solid lead ML bullet or ball for a whole box of fast, light, cavitating sabots.



I don't know if you're familiar with the writings of  the late Elmer Keith,but your views sound a great deal like his. He as you probably know was the Daddy of the .44 magnum,as well as a hunter,guide,rancher,and gun writer. He believed that a big, relatively slow moving bullet(as opposed to a high velocity one),was a much better killer of game. His credentials were a lifetime of killing game animals,and shooting sports,with many varied weapons. He and others who agree/agreed with him think that the formula for determining force of a bullet is skewed too much in favor of velocity. I don't have experience to rival him,or you for that matter,but the experience that I have in deer hunting,tells me that you,and he are right.


----------



## miles58 (Jan 24, 2012)

NCHillbilly said:


> We'll agree to disagree about this. Speed without mass is worthless, IMO. I've shot plenty of deer with both heavy, slow bullets and fast , light ones. From what I've seen with my own eyes, not what I read on a chart, the heavier bullets are more effective. Much more effective, at least in a ML. I don't care about cavitation and big words on ballistics charts, I care about deer either dropping in their tracks or leaving a Stevie Wonder blood trail. The big heavy bullets do it for me. Light ones just don't.  Especially in a muzzleloader. And a ML is just as deadly as a modern rifle, lost more with centerfires than MLs in my years of hunting. I hardly ever pick up a rifle anymore, I like hunting with MLs better, and they kill deer deaddeaddead with heavy bullets, seeing is believing. I wouldn't trade one big heavy solid lead ML bullet or ball for a whole box of fast, light, cavitating sabots.



Are you seriously suggesting that a muzzleloader is as efficient for killing deer as say a 30-06???  Really???

I can get usable accuracy out of my M/L gun from about 1500 FPS up to about 2200 FPS.  I can handle deer reasonably out to 200 yards if I have to but prefer by a very wide margin to stay inside a hundred.  My 30-06s give up nothing inside 100 to a M/L gun and easil handle out well beyond 200.

In point of fact, when bullets drop below 1200 FPS cavitaton and bullet expansion falls off dramatically and they are left with making a hole through vital structures as their sole means of killing.  Whether the hole goes all the way through or not is relevant only to the point that the hole is longer and damages more structure(s).

The bigger you can make the wound channel the more efficient the killing machine.  A heavy M/L bullet may well perform as well as or better than a light one in certain circumstance, but it is foolish to argue that a slow moving heavier M/L bullet has the ability to come close to the performance of modern CF rifle bullets and more so to attempt to compare a large slow lead bullet to a moderate to high speed  for M/L rifles saboted monometal designed to open very widely at 1200-1400 FPS.

Speed makes big holes.  Slow does not.  Speed expands whatever bullet you use much better than slow.  Energy on which you seem to base your argument  is derived from the square of speed times weight.  Carry your argument to the absurd conclusion and a two pound speer would be more efficient for killing?  I don't think so.

Dave


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jan 24, 2012)

miles58 said:


> Are you seriously suggesting that a muzzleloader is as efficient for killing deer as say a 30-06???  Really???
> 
> I can get usable accuracy out of my M/L gun from about 1500 FPS up to about 2200 FPS.  I can handle deer reasonably out to 200 yards if I have to but prefer by a very wide margin to stay inside a hundred.  My 30-06s give up nothing inside 100 to a M/L gun and easil handle out well beyond 200.
> 
> ...



Well, yes I am. I have killed a slew of deer with a muzzleloader. I have also killed deer with a .30/06. And yes, the muzzleloader makes a bigger hole, and kills them just as dead, just as quick, or quicker. The .30/06 has more range, sure. But some people hunt in the woods, and some people snipe across hayfields. I shoot most of my deer at less than a hundred yards. Expansion, you say? A half-inch diameter .50 bullet is already bigger before it expands than a .30/06 bullet after expanding. The few .50 that I have recovered (most go all the way through, leaving a massive wound channel) are expanded to at least an inch diameter. 

I don't read ballistics tables and cavitation theories. I look at dead deer to form opinions. Carry your argument to the absurd conclusion and a .220 swift should be the ideal rifle to hunt elephants with. I don't buy it, sorry. Most any centerfire rifle will kill a deer. Heavy bullets put a smackdown on them.


----------



## miles58 (Jan 25, 2012)

NCHillbilly said:


> Well, yes I am.



OK.  



NCHillbilly said:


> I have killed a slew of deer with a muzzleloader. I have also killed deer with a .30/06. And yes, the muzzleloader makes a bigger hole, and kills them just as dead, just as quick, or quicker. The .30/06 has more range, sure. But some people hunt in the woods, and some people snipe across hayfields. I shoot most of my deer at less than a hundred yards.



So, by that logic a spear IS as good as your muzzle loader with big heavy slow bullets.  So is an F150 as long as you restrict the comparison to highway deer.




NCHillbilly said:


> Expansion, you say? A half-inch diameter .50 bullet is already bigger before it expands than a .30/06 bullet after expanding. The few .50 that I have recovered (most go all the way through, leaving a massive wound channel) are expanded to at least an inch diameter.



I haven't killed a lot of deer with a M/L, but, A shotgun with slugs is a pretty close approximation at short range as you structure your position.  Those I have have done and seen a lot more done.  They can kill deer, but they don't begin to produce the kind of damage and penetration a 30-06 is capable of with slugs that run to 500 grains give or take a little.  Nor do they produce double diameter expansion like you claim because unjacketed lead can't do that without the jacket to support the upset from behind.




NCHillbilly said:


> I don't read ballistics tables and cavitation theories. I look at dead deer to form opinions. Carry your argument to the absurd conclusion and a .220 swift should be the ideal rifle to hunt elephants with. I don't buy it, sorry. Most any centerfire rifle will kill a deer. Heavy bullets put a smackdown on them.



One of the people subscribing to the "knockdown power" nonsense huh?  You want knockdown power?  Get an F150.

Dave


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jan 25, 2012)

miles58 said:


> OK.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, a spear will kill a deer just as effectively as a rifle if you put it through the right spot, with a lot less ruined bloodshot meat to boot. So will an arrow. They'll usually run a little farther with an arrow shot, but die just about as quick. And a F-150 will do a number on one too, just hard to get into the woods with. And you can believe what you want, but yes, some lead conicals will expand and mushroom to double caliber diameter. It's kinda funny that I can hold one in my hand and look at it, but you'd still argue with a micrometer and say it's impossible because it's not on paper in milesworld. Whatever. I ain't arguing with you any more. I've hunted long enough and killed enough deer to know what works for me. 

You're like a broken record- the only way you can effectively kill a deer is with a Barnes bullet going 3000 fps, but people have been killing deer extremely dead for thousands of years with all kinds of weapons, and they all tasted the same. I like Barnes bullets, too, but I don't think they're the only way to kill a deer graveyard dead. How about you shoot what you want to, and I'll shoot what I want to. You say you haven't shot or hunted with a muzzleloader much, but you want to come on here and give a contrary expert opininion to people who have been hunting and klilling game regularly with them for a quarter-century. Whatever. You win. You know best.


----------



## snook24 (Jan 25, 2012)

By far this is the most entertaing argument I've read on here! I believe both of you have good points...I do a lot of hog hunting so ill try it out with lighter bullets and heavy ones both with hotter and lighter loads and ill post how they all do but thanks for the input


----------



## miles58 (Jan 25, 2012)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yes, a spear will kill a deer just as effectively as a rifle if you put it through the right spot, with a lot less ruined bloodshot meat to boot. So will an arrow. They'll usually run a little farther with an arrow shot, but die just about as quick. And a F-150 will do a number on one too, just hard to get into the woods with. And you can believe what you want, but yes, some lead conicals will expand and mushroom to double caliber diameter. It's kinda funny that I can hold one in my hand and look at it, but you'd still argue with a micrometer and say it's impossible because it's not on paper in milesworld. Whatever. I ain't arguing with you any more. I've hunted long enough and killed enough deer to know what works for me.
> 
> You're like a broken record- the only way you can effectively kill a deer is with a Barnes bullet going 3000 fps, but people have been killing deer extremely dead for thousands of years with all kinds of weapons, and they all tasted the same. I like Barnes bullets, too, but I don't think they're the only way to kill a deer graveyard dead. How about you shoot what you want to, and I'll shoot what I want to. You say you haven't shot or hunted with a muzzleloader much, but you want to come on here and give a contrary expert opininion to people who have been hunting and klilling game regularly with them for a quarter-century. Whatever. You win. You know best.



I have been loading since the mid fifties.  I have been through a lot of bullets and I don't have enough years left to me to load bullets that are less than the best.

Show me one photograph of a 50 cal lead M/L bullet that killed a deer expanded to an inch or more please.  If you can't come up with one of them, I will accept a shotgun slug expanded to double diameter.

You might reconsider you claims of vast experience while making ad hominem attacks.

Dave


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jan 25, 2012)

miles58 said:


> I have been loading since the mid fifties.  I have been through a lot of bullets and I don't have enough years left to me to load bullets that are less than the best.
> 
> Show me one photograph of a 50 cal lead M/L bullet that killed a deer expanded to an inch or more please.  If you can't come up with one of them, I will accept a shotgun slug expanded to double diameter.
> 
> ...



I have no idea about a shotgun slug except that everything I ever shot with one died really dead, but I can easily get you a pic of an expanded 1" ML bullet if you give me time to hunt one up. And I've never loaded a shell in my life, but I've shot a whole lot of 'em of all kinds into animals over the years, all kinds and weights of bullets, and I've burned a lot of black powder. And I've noticed from dead animals that heavy bullets consistantly penetrate, hold together, and kill better than light ones. _Especially_ in muzzleloaders. I see a world of difference in light/heavy bullets in black powder hunting.

And I ain't making ad hominem attacks, I don't swing that way. Whatever anybody wants to do is their own bidness I reckon, but I ain't into that hominem stuff myself.

One question: Why do those African pro hunters use big heavy solid bullets to hunt dangerous game with instead of little bitty light expanding ones? Just ignorance maybe?

One more question: How much deader than dead does stuff need to be to be really dead?

And an observation: You state that a ML is not a very effective deer hunting weapon in your opinion. Yet deer were killed almost to the point of total extinction and were pretty much totally extirpated in most eastern states by people shooting heavy solid lead balls out of flintlock rifles. How you reckon they done that?


----------



## miles58 (Jan 25, 2012)

NCHillbilly said:


> I have no idea about a shotgun slug except that everything I ever shot with one died really dead, but I can easily get you a pic of an expanded 1" ML bullet if you give me time to hunt one up.



I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath.



NCHillbilly said:


> And I've never loaded a shell in my life, but I've shot a whole lot of 'em of all kinds into animals over the years, all kinds and weights of bullets, and I've burned a lot of black powder. And I've noticed from dead animals that heavy bullets consistantly penetrate, hold together, and kill better than light ones. _Especially_ in muzzleloaders. I see a world of difference in light/heavy bullets in black powder hunting.



Maybe, if you just compare lead bullets to lead bullets and aren't particularly rigorous in your tests.  I don't see enough difference in lead shotgun slugs and lead M/L bullets to make me prefer one over the other when it comes to killing.  Accuracy can be a whole other story though.



NCHillbilly said:


> One question: Why do those African pro hunters use big heavy solid bullets to hunt dangerous game with instead of little bitty light expanding ones? Just ignorance maybe?



You might want to look up Karamojo Bell.  He killed a lot of elephants with a 7x57 and some pretty light by comparison FMJs.  Current practice now is much more often to use monometal bullets like Barnes and GS Custom etc rather than solids.  Unfortunately for your argument rounds like 375 H&H Mag, 458 Win mag and 460 Wby Mag are on the lower end of the range of what they use shooting elephants.  Even at that though they are still not what would be considered a low velocity round.  They try to push as big a bullet as fast as they can handle recoil wise because elephant shooting tends to be close range and elephants are pretty dangerous.

Dave



NCHillbilly said:


> One more question: How much deader than dead does stuff need to be to be really dead?



Another ill considered question.  I can kill deer stone dead with one shot every time 70 yards and in with my target rifle and .22lr ammo.



NCHillbilly said:


> And an observation: You state that a ML is not a very effective deer hunting weapon in your opinion. Yet deer were killed almost to the point of total extinction and were pretty much totally extirpated in most eastern states by people shooting heavy solid lead balls out of flintlock rifles. How you reckon they done that?



You are dead wrong in each of the above statements.  I did not state that M/L guns were not a very effective deer hunting weapon.  I said they can't compare to a 30-06.  They cannot and that's a simple fact.  Deer were not killed off so much by hunting as they were by habitat loss.  There is ample documentation of that.

Dave


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jan 25, 2012)

miles58 said:


> I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath.
> 
> As soon as I get a chance, I'll dig one out and post it up, might take a few days. Never recovered many, as they're usually done gone out the exit hole.
> 
> ...



...


----------



## miles58 (Jan 26, 2012)

miles58 said:


> Are you seriously suggesting that a muzzleloader is as efficient for killing deer as say a 30-06???  Really???



My original question to you.



NCHillbilly said:


> Well, yes I am. I have killed a slew of deer with a muzzleloader. I have also killed deer with a .30/06. And yes, the muzzleloader makes a bigger hole, and kills them just as dead, just as quick, or quicker. The .30/06 has more range, sure. But some people hunt in the woods, and some people snipe across hayfields. I shoot most of my deer at less than a hundred yards. Expansion, you say? A half-inch diameter .50 bullet is already bigger before it expands than a .30/06 bullet after expanding. The few .50 that I have recovered (most go all the way through, leaving a massive wound channel) are expanded to at least an inch diameter.



Your response to me.  Quoted in full so as to retain context.



NCHillbilly said:


> Expansion, you say? A half-inch diameter .50 bullet is already bigger before it expands than a .30/06 bullet after expanding. The few .50 that I have recovered (most go all the way through, leaving a massive wound channel) are expanded to at least an inch diameter.



Your response.



miles58 said:


> I haven't killed a lot of deer with a M/L, but, A shotgun with slugs is a pretty close approximation at short range as you structure your position. Those I have have done and seen a lot more done. They can kill deer, but they don't begin to produce the kind of damage and penetration a 30-06 is capable of with slugs that run to 500 grains give or take a little. Nor do they produce double diameter expansion like you claim because unjacketed lead can't do that without the jacket to support the upset from behind.



A simple statement of my position, giving you the opportunity to claim a difference between shotgun slugs and M/L slugs.  I also unequivocally dispute here that you cannot make a 50 of 54 cal M/L slug expand to more than an inch.



miles58 said:


> So, by that logic a spear IS as good as your muzzle loader with big heavy slow bullets. So is an F150 as long as you restrict the comparison to highway deer.



A simple restatement of your argument again.



NCHillbilly said:


> Yes, a spear will kill a deer just as effectively as a rifle if you put it through the right spot, with a lot less ruined bloodshot meat to boot.



Your response.



NCHillbilly said:


> One more question: How much deader than dead does stuff need to be to be really dead?



A question to me.



miles58 said:


> Another ill considered question. I can kill deer stone dead with one shot every time 70 yards and in with my target rifle and .22lr ammo.



My response.



NCHillbilly said:


> See above. And again, you're in the ML forum talking about modern rifles and bullets. And if I was gonna deer hunt with a .22., I would use the heaviest solid bullets I could find. Why you reckon the buffalo hunters went with a .50 Sharps with big heavy bullets for long-range shooting instead of .32 squirrel guns?



You claim that your M/L gun is equal to a 30-06.  Not me.  I know better.  You fail to recognize your own argument handed back to you in the form of a spear or and F150.  You fail to recognize your own argument handed back to you in the form of a .22lr.  *You do not quite obviously understand your own position well enough to recognize it.*

As far as your position in this goes, if it makes it dead it's equal as you've stated.  By your logic that .22lr is equal to your M/L gun which is equal to a 30-06 which is equal to a speer which is equal to an F-150.

If you don't recognize your own position, and it's absurdity, how are we to believe you know what you're talking about?  Even your attacks against me personally instead of my side of the argument are on the pathetic side.

Step up to the plate and show us what the big bullets are best at and how they're best used.  That's what these forums and discussions are for.

Dave


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jan 26, 2012)

miles58 said:


> My original question to you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What personal attacks? You're the one who keeps calling me absurd, pathetic, more or less stupid, and other things many times in this thread. The only time I've done such to you is quoting your choice of insult word directly back at you.

 Look- bottom line: what it really comes down to in the end is I'm not gonna argue with you any more, 'cause I could really give a rat's butt what you think. I was just trying to share and discuss what I believe to be legitimate opinions, but apparantly, nobody but you is allowed to have one. In your words, I'm obviously ignorant, pathetic, and absurd, and don't understand my own argument. So be it. I'm happy being pathetic, ignorant, and absurd. If it makes you happy, go forth and hunt with 100 grain bullets, and I'll keep using my heavy ones. The point is, it works for me and fortunately, you don't go hunting with me to correct my misguided views. 

Again, I'm done with this. You are all-knowing. I'm an idiot. Lighter bullets retain much more energy than heavy ones and are better for all hunting. Heavy bullets are useless. Muzzleloaders won't effectively kill deer. Now, are you happy? Good. I'm gonna ignore you from now on.


----------



## miles58 (Jan 26, 2012)

NCHillbilly said:


> Yes, a spear will kill a deer just as effectively as a rifle if you put it through the right spot, with a lot less ruined bloodshot meat to boot. So will an arrow. They'll usually run a little farther with an arrow shot, but die just about as quick. And a F-150 will do a number on one too, just hard to get into the woods with. And you can believe what you want, but yes, some lead conicals will expand and mushroom to double caliber diameter. It's kinda funny that I can hold one in my hand and look at it, but you'd still argue with a micrometer and say it's impossible because it's not on paper in milesworld. Whatever. I ain't arguing with you any more. I've hunted long enough and killed enough deer to know what works for me.
> 
> You're like a broken record- the only way you can effectively kill a deer is with a Barnes bullet going 3000 fps, but people have been killing deer extremely dead for thousands of years with all kinds of weapons, and they all tasted the same. I like Barnes bullets, too, but I don't think they're the only way to kill a deer graveyard dead. How about you shoot what you want to, and I'll shoot what I want to. You say you haven't shot or hunted with a muzzleloader much, but you want to come on here and give a contrary expert opininion to people who have been hunting and klilling game regularly with them for a quarter-century. Whatever. You win. You know best.



You want to rethink your last statements too?

Dave


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jan 26, 2012)

miles58 said:


> You want to rethink your last statements too?
> 
> Dave



I don't want to rethink anything. I'm D.O.N.E. arguing with you. It's pointless.


----------



## tv_racin_fan (Jan 26, 2012)

I sure would love to see a 30 cal bullet of any sort pushed out of a muzzle loader using black powder or sub that is more deadly than a big ole 54 caliber bullet...


----------



## Nicodemus (Jan 26, 2012)

Here`s a .490 pure lead ball that was pushed from a 50 caliber Lyman Great Plains Rifle with 70 grains of FFFg. It`s the only one I`ve ever recovered from a deer. Everything else I`ve ever shot, both from it and Gabriel, have been complete pass throughs. And it killed em mighty dead.


----------



## miles58 (Jan 26, 2012)

tv_racin_fan said:


> I sure would love to see a 30 cal bullet of any sort pushed out of a muzzle loader using black powder or sub that is more deadly than a big ole 54 caliber bullet...



I don't know of any sabots designed to hold 30 caliber bullets, but a .45 caliber bullets going through the deer I posted pictures of in the Barnes T-EZ field report left the heart loose in the chest, a fist sized chunk of one lung was all that remained of both lungs, the rest being reduced to red soup.  The bullet started at about 1700 FPS.  

I have run the same bullets across the chrony at almost 2200 FPS.  I expect the damage another 500 FPS would do would indeed be noticeable, but probably not a whole lot worse that what the photos show.  I have seen about fifty deer killed with various Barnes bullets, some of the impact velocities were in excess of 3000 FPS.  They have a very marked tendency to reduce the lungs to red soup and shred the heart (or abdomen contents when they go there).  But...they do not seem so prone to wrecking meat as cup and core bullets.  For example, one I shot blew a fist sized hole in the onside shoulder blade but didn't ruin so much of the meat on that shoulder.  That's hardly leaving much for bone.  The one in the T-EZ thread shows a pretty big hole through both shoulder blades, but it also didn't destro much of the shoulder meat.

That 45 caliber slug did more damage in total than any 58 caliber lead minie balls I have seen deer shot with.

Dave


----------



## miles58 (Jan 26, 2012)

Nicodemus said:


> Here`s a .490 pure lead ball that was pushed from a 50 caliber Lyman Great Plains Rifle with 70 grains of FFFg. It`s the only one I`ve ever recovered from a deer. Everything else I`ve ever shot, both from it and Gabriel, have been complete pass throughs. And it killed em mighty dead.



Yeah, I have seen Minies and shotgun slugs do that too, splatter against bone.  I have never seen one expand to double diameter though.

What we are discussing here is performance where you run it through a shoulder blade, four ribs (edgewise), take out a fist sized chunk spine, two more ribs (edgewise) the off side shoulder blade and still exit out at 263 yards.  That takes really tough bullets and a lot of speed.  Compare that to the best we can do with a M/L shooting lead and you just can't do that at fifty yards.  Jacketed lead at fifty out of a M/L maybe.   Solid copper at fifty out of a M/L probably, but much less likely at 100, and pretty unlikely at 150, even pushed as hard as possible.  Even with ballistic tipped copper like the T-EZ, they still lose too much speed traveling.  We might could do it did we push them at better than 3000 FPS, but I am not man enough to be shooting them enough to find out.  That'd be less fun than shotgun slugs off the bench.

Dave


----------



## Nicodemus (Jan 26, 2012)

I don`t know about all the ballistics and such, and all I shoot is true blackpowder and patched round ball, but I`ve taken deer up to 100 yards, when my eyes were still good with these old style rifles. 

And historical references show that there were shots taken further than that at game, and people, with good results. Dave, my intention is not to mutilate the game up, but to make as clean a kill as possible. These rifles do that, and after havin` used rifles like this for over 25 years, I`ve never lost a head of game shot with one. As bad as I hate it, I have lost a few to my 3006, back when I used it.

These are just my observations over almost half a lifetime of shootin` muzzleloaders.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Jan 26, 2012)

Nicodemus said:


> I don`t know about all the ballistics and such, and all I shoot is true blackpowder and patched round ball, but I`ve taken deer up to 100 yards, when my eyes were still good with these old style rifles.
> 
> And historical references show that there were shots taken further than that at game, and people, with good results. Dave, my intention is not to mutilate the game up, but to make as clean a kill as possible. These rifles do that, and after havin` used rifles like this for over 25 years, I`ve never lost a head of game shot with one. As bad as I hate it, I have lost a few to my 3006, back when I used it.
> 
> These are just my observations over almost half a lifetime of shootin` muzzleloaders.



Oh Lord, another non-yankee idjet who don't know nothing.   Maybe we oughta form a "We keep killin'deer all the time with these rifles but they're not effective and we don't know no better so we keep huntin' with'em " club.


----------



## miles58 (Jan 26, 2012)

Nicodemus said:


> I don`t know about all the ballistics and such, and all I shoot is true blackpowder and patched round ball, but I`ve taken deer up to 100 yards, when my eyes were still good with these old style rifles.
> 
> And historical references show that there were shots taken further than that at game, and people, with good results. Dave, my intention is not to mutilate the game up, but to make as clean a kill as possible. These rifles do that, and after havin` used rifles like this for over 25 years, I`ve never lost a head of game shot with one. As bad as I hate it, I have lost a few to my 3006, back when I used it.
> 
> These are just my observations over almost half a lifetime of shootin` muzzleloaders.



I hear you.

I've been killing deer with rifles since the mid fifties, and had to use all manner of bullets.  I built a couple of M/L guns in the early 70s and used 58 cal minies in them.  I shot real BP in them because that was all that was available.  I like what I shoot now better simply because it's more efficient and easier to live with.

I don't like wrecking meat.  That's why when I have a deer quiet and 50 yards or in, they are usually head shots.  I have shot one deer at right on 200 yards, and the one at 263.  All the rest have been inside 170.

I know there are many accounts of deer killed at long range w M/L guns.  I doubt however that either of us would consider 300 yards ethical, much less more.  I certainly wouldn't even with the best I can manage with a fast 250 grain Ballistic tipped Barnes and a gun that shoots into an inch.  I might go 200 under ideal circumstances, but when I go hunting with the M/L guns they are always loaded with a load I wouldn't use past 100, so the point is moot.

Dave


----------



## tv_racin_fan (Jan 26, 2012)

NOT moot at all when the topic of conversation was a MUZZLELOADED FIREARM AND THE PROJECTILES OF SUCH.

Again I surely want to see that 30 call projectile shot out of a MUZZLELOADER using black powder or a substitute that will out perform that big ole slug out of the OPs 54 caliber rifle.


----------



## miles58 (Jan 27, 2012)

tv_racin_fan said:


> NOT moot at all when the topic of conversation was a MUZZLELOADED FIREARM AND THE PROJECTILES OF SUCH.



Are you drinking or just maybe don't comprehend English well?  I explained to Nic that I wouldn't even consider 200 yards with a fast (2200 FPS) ballistic tip saboted solid copper bullet that can produce inch groups.  When I hunt I load much lighter charges that run 500 FPS slower because I just don't shoot past 100 yards with the M/L guns.  The point being that while accuracy is possible and killing power is available to handle 200 yards that I don't load for that situation because I have no intention of ever trying it.  Thus, whether I am capable of it or not is irrelevant (a moot point) because it is never going to happen.



tv_racin_fan said:


> Again I surely want to see that 30 call projectile shot out of a MUZZLELOADER using black powder or a substitute that will out perform that big ole slug out of the OPs 54 caliber rifle.



Be careful what you wish for.  In 2010 the doe I killed at 263 yards had a fist size hole through the on side shoulder blade, it took out six ribs edgwise, a fist size chunk of spine and a quarter sized hole in the off side shoulder blade and still exited the deer.  That bullet was a 110 grain TTSX travelling at ~2300-2400 FPS when it hit Bambi.  I am very doubtful a 58 caliber minie would be able to do that at 50 yards.  I am certain it couldn't at 100  I have seen enough deer hit with heavier slugs out of 12 gauge shotguns launched at 1600 FPS that couldn't begin to come close to that performance.  Unjacketed lead is unjacketed lead and it does not fare well against bone.  Even high velocity, heavy jacketed lead with a very sturdy jacket would be very hard put at 200 yards to manage all that bone destruction and still clear the animal.

I do have some 150 grain 30-30 Barnes bullets that I can probably run through Bambi somewhere close on 2400 FPS at 100 yards.  Those bullets have a whopping big hollow point in the end so they expand well at 1500 FPS when used in a 30-30.  I am certain they will hold together just as well as every other Barnes I've put through deer.

There's a place in Utah that shows they might have some 30-50 caliber sabots.  That would give you your 30 caliber bullet out of a M/L gun using black powder or a substitute.

If you are willing to put up enough money to make this interesting, I might be persuaded to provide a demonstration.

Edited to add:  Of course if you are so impressed with heavy lead slugs you could go ahead and put it up against a 45 caliber copper slug that weighs a piddling 250 grains.

Dave


----------



## tv_racin_fan (Jan 27, 2012)

In 2010 that DOE was shot with a muzzleloaded 30 cal projectile? I want to see proof of that please sir.

The slug out of the shotgun aint the issue here sir UNLESS that shotgun happens to be a muzzleloaded smoothie...I just happen to have one of those... and a round ball works just fine aint no need for me to go find a slug that will.

That 30-30 is muzzle loaded and using BLACK POWDER or a SUBTITUTE? Again you seem to be missing the point here THIS is the MUZZLE LOADING FORUM and that 30-06 or 30-30 aint, so  what it can do has no bearing on the conversation. WHAT the op asked about was slower or faster bigger projectiles out of his MUZZLE LOADED rifle. THAT is the context of the conversation and until that 30-06 is MUZZLE LOADED or that 30-30 is what they can do aint got a hill of beans to do with the CONVERSATION.

"I've used lighter loads that work fine now its just something new to try. Question is does it have more knock down power moving slower with 70gr powder or moving faster with 100gr to blow through the pig!"

OH indeed there are the projectiles and the sabots to do it BUT that black powder wont run those projectiles at the sort of SPEEED that 30-30 or 30-06 will thus it aint the same context. UNLESS of course you can prove that different by running them across my chrono and showing me that indeed MY rifle can run those projectiles at that speed. Then  I would say WOW I learned something and was RONG!

Also the OP already knows that 250 grain projectile will kill deer. HE wanted to know IF a bigger slug would do it as well and should he push it faster or let it go slow. Which I thought I answered pretty well.


----------



## Okie Hog (Feb 1, 2012)

Never used heavy muzzleloader bullets on wild hogs.  Never saw any need to.  i've killed hundreds of hogs using the Hornady 240 grain .430 bullet and the 250 grain SST/Shockwave.  Put one of the lighter bullets in the right place and you have a dead hog.  

Killed some hogs with the 350 grain FPB bullet.  It does a good job but it ain't worth the money.  

If you want to shoot big hogs in the shoulders get the Harvester hard cast bullets.  

http://www.harvestermuzzleloading.c...ion=com_virtuemart&Itemid=3&vmcchk=1&Itemid=3


----------



## snook24 (May 9, 2012)

So I finally got to get out in the swamp and try out the big bullet. I shot a hog last year with a 348 gr powerbelt and it went 60 yrds and went down but left no blood. So I bought some no excuse bullets that were 535 gr and got a running shot on a big sow....it hit her a little far back but almost crumppled her she only went 30 yards and bedded down so I reloaded and finished her off. Even with a poor shot this hit so hard it showed me what ill be using from now on...the pic of the pig was posted on the 2012 kill thread


----------



## snook24 (May 9, 2012)

Forgot to say I've shot 2 deer and one hog with those powerbelt bullets and never found blood from any of them....on this poor shot pig with the big bullet  there was blood everywhere so this is another reason I really liked them


----------



## Redleaf (May 10, 2012)

Bore sized  soft lead conical bullets of about 1.25 to 1.5" in length in medium caliber muzzleloaders (40 to 50cal)  launched at about 1200fps will kill waaaaay beyond their paper ballistics.  If you have never done this,  you should try it before making comparisons about it.  It is purely astounding how effective they are on game the size of deer.   The buffalo hunters of the 1870's used bullets like this in cartridge guns,  but they were still long, soft lead bullets launched at about 1200fps.  There was a reason why they used them.


----------

