# Ancient Mysteries, Holy Orgies!



## Artfuldodger (Mar 10, 2015)

Many of the Pagan religions had Holy Orgies. I wonder if in the Book of Romans when the people abandoned God for Idols, if they participated in Holy Orgies? 
Was the homosexuality related to these orgies? Was the performance part of Idol worship and self satisfaction as a way to influence the Idol God?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 10, 2015)

I believe what the God of Abraham was trying to do was remove sex from society in all forms except between two married people.
This in itself would help with controlling disease, jealousy, un-wanted children, adultery, fornication, orgies, prostitutes, pedestary, lust, envy, and host of other problems.

Mostly though he was against the sexual manifests used for and during idol worship. He doesn't like idol worship, can you blame him? So he wouldn't want man performing any of it's associated rituals. He'll turn you over to a depraved mind.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 10, 2015)

I see a lot of similarities between the ancient rituals of various religions, rites, and initiations. Some included holy orgies.
Many take the initiate on a journey from darkness to light.
Sometimes Satan is a force instead of an individual. Rituals include the sun and moon. Many Gods. The dead control our destiny. Phallic references. God is the Universe.                                                                                                                  Phallus Festivals.

Orgies have a universal manifestation: in the western world, we can find them in ancient Greece and Rome, and also flourishing in the Christian Middle Ages. Later, condemned by religion, orgies gradually disappeared.

Carnival is a type of non-sexual Christian orgy.


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## ambush80 (Mar 12, 2015)

It's good that you're looking into the origins of your particular faith.  Keep digging.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 12, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> It's good that you're looking into the origins of your particular faith.  Keep digging.



Yeah, it's about time for one of my brothers to tell me how terribly off track I am.  Enlightenment and salvation are two different things.

One can travel the whole journey seeking the light and never find it. The light is only for those that have eyes to see and ears to hear.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 12, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe what the God of Abraham was trying to do was remove sex from society in all forms except between two married people.





Artfuldodger said:


> Yeah, it's about time for one of my brothers to tell me how terribly off track I am.


A god that tries to do something... is of no use to me.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 12, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> A god that tries to do something... is of no use to me.



In the book of Romans, people abandoned or exchanged God for idols, then they exchanged the truth for a lie.
They then exchanged hetero sex for gay sex.

And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper.

That's a lot of exchanging, abandoning, and turning from a God who doesn't have to try and make us in his image.

How is it God gave "Totally Depraved" lost sinners over to "depraved minds?" People who were already too depraved to seek God or see the truth?
People who didn't acknowledge God any longer? How can a depraved sinner have the ability to not acknowledge God any longer? People who had the ability to exchange the truth for a lie? 
People who had the ability to exchange God for idols? People who had the ability to exchange hetero sex for gay sex?

Again, that's a whole lot of exchanging. Especially for depraved lost sinners.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 12, 2015)

Sex in ancient Rome before Christianity, was an orgy. It was way more than just between two married people.
This is the type or part of sex God was against. Fornication.
God was against the way the Romans saw sex. Many people, especially men, see sex  as more than the way God want them to see it. I can't explain it or put it in words. 
Examples would be having lust in one's heart, lusting over every girl one sees. Having sexual conversations with women other than your spouse, looking at porno without your wife, sex with men if you are heterosexual, telling sexual jokes, watching sex in movies, listening to sexual lyrics in music, etc.. 
Sexual things that can lead to selfishness. When one gets too wrapped up in themselves, they can start to worship false idols. They can hurt their spouses.
They can hurt their family. It hurts God.
It's something that God checks. He knows it can get out of hand. 
When one suffers from a terrible sin, it often breeds other terrible sins. The drunkard eventually starts to gamble. The Gambler eventually picks up a prostitute. The prostitute gets a disease. 
The Christian seeks the company of a male temple prostitute or other male companion. He has broken a covenant between himself and his wife.
The person with anger in his heart could eventually actually hurt someone. 
Eventually one could become further and further from God.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 14, 2015)

I big thing in early religion was Sacred prostitution, temple prostitution, or religious prostitution that went along with holy orgies.

This was another thing the God of Abraham had to overcome with the conversion of the Pagan Romans. The ancient Romans weren't very sexually moral by God's standards. He had to clean them up morally to become Christians.


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## JimD (Mar 14, 2015)

I've always wondered why it was OK for people in the OT, including Gods chosen, to have multiple wives and harems. Why isn't that OK today then?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 15, 2015)

drippin' rock said:


> The question burning my mind is why after being censored multiple times on this web site for what I considered innocuous words, orgies gets by???



Because it's not being used in an offensive manner. When having religious discussions many words used to describe religion have been turned into curse words.
It's hard to discuss God and religion without using words to describe sins, He!!, darnation, and rituals that included sex.
Sex and religion go together like pancakes and syrup.
Words like fornication, circumcision, prostitution, orgies, homosexuals, sexual symbols, rituals, unclean times of women, unnatural sex,  adultery, etc. are a big part of religion. 

This thread is an example of that concept although it doesn't allow us to get too carried away. We still need use moderation in our discussion.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 15, 2015)

Related to temple prostitution was the Temples of Ishtar.

Ishtar, a goddess of both fertility and war, is the Akkadian name of the Sumerian goddess Inanna and the Semitic goddess Astarte, the three names referring to the same deity in different cultural contexts. She inspired great devotion in the ancient Babylonian empire, as evidenced by the many grand temples, altars, inscriptions, and art objects devoted to her.

The name Ishtar is likely Semitic in origin, and was identified in ancient times with Canaanite goddess Ashtoreth or Astarte (Biblical Hebrew עשתרת). It is possible that the underlying stem is the same as that of Assur, meaning the "leading one" or "chief." The older Sumerian name, Inanna, means "Great Lady of An"—An (or Anu) being the god of the sky or heaven.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/ishtar

Ishtar was the "light bringer" and for this reason some believe the Statue of Liberty was actually Ishtar.
I haven't found any evidence they are connected. I did find this;
We've been saying for years that it was just a matter of time before the Babylonian chief goddess Ishtar (a.k.a. Inanna in Babylon, Isis in Eygypt, Astarte or Aphrodite in Greece and Libertas/Venus in Rome to name just a few) would once again rise to prominence in world affairs not merely in a mystical manner but in a bold, in-your-face resurgence of Ishtar’s many "mystical" doctrines.

The main temple of Ishtar was in Babylon. They had temple prostitutes.
In the Old Testament her worship is regarded as an abomination, and it is Ishtar's worshipers and her ishtarishtu (sacred prostitutes) who were to be found even at the doors of the Hebrew god's great temple, much to the consternation of his priests and prophets.


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## Madman (May 11, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> He had to clean them up morally to become Christians.



Really?  Just how "morally clean" does one have to be to become a Christian?


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## Artfuldodger (May 11, 2015)

Madman said:


> Really?  Just how "morally clean" does one have to be to become a Christian?



Not to become a Christian but the consensus is one must stop attending Gay Pagan Orgies once one becomes a Christian. Bad choice of words on my part in that post.
It's related to; is one always saved once he believes Jesus died for his sins? Is it all from God or must the individual make changes in his morals such as continuing to have homosexual sex or does God perform these changes by the work of his Spirit? Would no changes in morals prove the individual was never saved in the first place?
It's always a big argument on here as to what is necessary from the individual in the form of repentance or change to warrant or keep salvation. 
It's an age old question.


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## Artfuldodger (May 11, 2015)

Madman said:


> Really?  Just how "morally clean" does one have to be to become a Christian?



Religion in ancient Rome and other lands during Jesus' earthly ministry were full of various pagan religions. These religions had and used sex in their ceremonies.
Jesus had to change their "mindset" that Christianity wasn't like that. There were many parts of the various religions to even include Judaism that Jesus had to "change" their ways.
These changes did include morals and other things. 
Possibly not needed for salvation but a result of salvation.

In Romans when a group of people made changes and reverted back, God gave them over to a reprobate mind. Perhaps some changes are needed after all unless the "washing"  removes all future sins as well as past sins.


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## centerpin fan (May 12, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> ... one must stop attending Gay Pagan Orgies once one becomes a Christian.



I'm putting that on a t-shirt.  (I'll share the royalties with you.)


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## stringmusic (May 15, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm putting that on a t-shirt.  (I'll share the royalties with you.)


Sweet! I'll take two in large please.

I like this one as well....


Artfuldodger said:


> Sex and religion go together like pancakes and syrup.


I'm thinking tank top?


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## centerpin fan (May 16, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Sex and religion go together like pancakes and syrup.





stringmusic said:


> I'm thinking tank top?



Dang!  How did I miss that one?

That's "face tattoo" material.


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## Artfuldodger (May 16, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> Dang!  How did I miss that one?
> 
> That's "face tattoo" material.



Don't forget my royalties!


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## TTom (May 17, 2015)

Artfuldodger, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about how many pagan religions viewed sex in the context of religion.

Sex in many pagan religions is "part" of the ceremony as the Eucharist is "part" of the ceremony in a christian church, it is one of the central ceremonies if not THE central ceremony. Christians more commonly call it communion, and that is the way many pagan religions saw / see sex in this context. Sex in this context was seen as a spiritual practice, a union of people which allowed them to experience a communion with god/gods. 

I realize it is a foreign idea to most christians to see sex this way, and as such it's easier to dismiss the idea out of hand. 

Sex even in the Christian view is seen as a physical joining of two into one, a rejoining of the two parts of mankind. Sex forms a bond on a spiritual as well as physical level. Even Christians frequently express the idea of sex as communion with god in their verbal expressions during the act.


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## Artfuldodger (May 19, 2015)

TTom said:


> Artfuldodger, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about how many pagan religions viewed sex in the context of religion.
> 
> Sex in many pagan religions is "part" of the ceremony as the Eucharist is "part" of the ceremony in a christian church, it is one of the central ceremonies if not THE central ceremony. Christians more commonly call it communion, and that is the way many pagan religions saw / see sex in this context. Sex in this context was seen as a spiritual practice, a union of people which allowed them to experience a communion with god/gods.
> 
> ...



Good understanding and thanks for your viewpoint. I don't think Christianity's main spiritual meaning is sex but I do see a lot of sex and sexual comparisons within Christianity.
We could start with man needing a helper, reproduction, and offspring as with Adam & Eve. I see some where along the way the covenant with the Jews required circumcision. 
While not sexual it does contain something in the realm of sexual body parts. 

Next is the birth of Christ being of a virgin from no sex. But it did contain a fertilization, pregnancy, and birth.

Marriage. The Bride of Christ is the Church. In marriage two become one, sexually and spiritually. I'm not saying anything is sexual about Christ and his Church but a marriage analogy is used by Jesus to explain the relationship.

Next is all of the laws and commandments denouncing lust, adultery, and a whole host of other sexual sins and requirements. 

Then there is more ideals and requirements presented by Scripture of the differences between the two sexes.

It would be hard to read the Bible and not note anything to do with sex and sexuality withing it's confines.


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## TTom (May 20, 2015)

Oh no wasn't meaning Christianity's main spirituality was sex, in fact almost the opposite. In large part Because paganism was so sexual, in order to set themselves apart and form a recognizable nation, Judaism was instructed to reject sex as spiritual practice outside of marriage. Even then it wasn't until Christianity that sexuality once again took on a definitive spiritual aspect.

My point though was it would be impossible to actively participate in a sexual religious rite that by nature is part of worshiping another god/ goddess without shattering the 1st commandment.

The nature of the (orgies, temple prostitutes, sexual practices that are far more numerous than can be described here) was in many if not most cases far more about worship of the god/goddess the partner represented communion with. So the parallel is comparing the Eucharist with sexual spiritual practices, both representing communion, becoming one with god in that moment. Rather than comparing the way Christianity and pagan religions treat sex.


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