# Upon  this.... I will build my church



## Ronnie T (Aug 22, 2011)

Matthew 16:18
 "..........I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

This verse is usually used to argue whether Peter is the rock or not.

I'd like to think and talk about the gate.

The challenge:  what is Jesus really saying.........
"the gates of hel l shall not prevail against My church"


----------



## CAL (Aug 22, 2011)

Is he not saying that Peters answer about who Jesus is,In verse 16."Thou art the Christ,the Son of the Living God".This the rock he is talking about building His Church upon.The Church people represent Christ ,the Son of the Living God and nothing can stop this from being.
I also think He is using the "gates of he l  l as the very worst challenge there is to interfere and it is not going to happen.
What say you Ronnie T.?


----------



## mtnwoman (Aug 22, 2011)

Matthew.
16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. *Peter's answer is the rock...that Jesus is Christ, Son of the living God is the rock that the church is built on, not Peter himself. *

16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. *Jesus knows that Peter 'gets it' and what Peter's statement are that Peter will be able to build/start the church on 'the rock', which is the acknowledgement of  Christ and who Christ is.*

16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Aug 23, 2011)

And on this solid foundation [confession of who Jesus is] I will build my church


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 23, 2011)

This is the question:

What does the following mean specifically....

"the gates of hel l shall not prevail against My church" 

Think about it.


----------



## jmharris23 (Aug 23, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> This is the question:
> 
> What does the following mean specifically....
> 
> ...



It means that "the gates of he l l which in my mind is death, will not have the ultimate victory over us.


----------



## formula1 (Aug 23, 2011)

*Re:*

Gates of He$$---- - the powers and principalities and dark forces in heavenly places.

Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Will not prevail - Will not overcome the power of Christ

Luke 10
17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!" 18 And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. 20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

Against My church - When the church is founded upon the revelation that Jesus is the Christ(the Rock), that is, as Jesus Christ as head of the church and we as his servants.

2 Cor 5
5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 
6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us

Anyway, thats what I see in scripture to describe it!  God Bless!


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 23, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Matthew 16:18
> "..........I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
> 
> This verse is usually used to argue whether Peter is the rock or not.
> ...



The gates of hades cannot prevail over justice and mercy or grace. So the gate in this context is everything that is not faith or everything which is not in the heart of Jesus, which is the Father, or God the Just. The gates of hades ,or the gate that leads to the consequences of sin, have no dominion in the spiritual lives of the rightious.

"My church" is the institution that operates from the ministry of Jesus.


----------



## CAL (Aug 23, 2011)

Ronnie,I see the key word here to be "prevail"which means to be superior in influence,power,and strength.Back to my original post being "Nothing ,no influence,no power and no strength can be against His Church".


----------



## meat-n-taters (Aug 23, 2011)

The rock faith, and keeping it steady and strong as a rock that will remain till his return the gates of he ll cant prevail against it, lets keep the rock and solid foundation of faith and let that light shine and well lit before men so that they may see our good works and give glory to the father in heaven.Faith without works is dead being alone.The harvest is truly great but the labourers are few if we ever needed to work its now we meet opposition from time to time but so long as we keep faith the things the prince of this world trows at us will NOT prevail!May have said too much this really just got me thinking.Thanks


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Aug 23, 2011)

The reference to the Keys given  [to the gates of heaven] is in contrast with the gates of he11


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 23, 2011)

I'm sorry but I forgot I began this subject last night.  
My response has always basically been the same as all the responses.  I talked with a friend recently that caused me to look at it in a little different light than ever before. 
Here's what I came away with (short version).

"the gates of hel l shall not prevail"

Gates aren't used as an offensive weapon.  Gates protect.  Protect what's behind them.  This church that Christ is about to administer is going to begin small, but it's not going to stay that way.  Satan will want it to, but it won't.
Christ's church, Jesus is saying, is going to bust the gates of hades wide open.  Evil is going to be confronted, and ministered to.  The Gospel is going into the world of evil and it can't be stopped.  People are going to be jerked from the clutches of satan.  He can't stop it from happening.
The gates of hel l cannot stand up to the power of Christ's church."

What do ya think??


----------



## CAL (Aug 23, 2011)

I see your definition and agree.I was looking at "prevail" just differently.
The gates of He l l can't keep the Gospel of Christ out. Amen!


----------



## mtnwoman (Aug 23, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> This is the question:
> 
> What does the following mean specifically....
> 
> ...



To me, prevail in this scripture means the gates will not be able to hold back/withstand/keep out/nor win over the teaching of Jesus' church.


----------



## Michael F. Gray (Aug 23, 2011)

The gates of Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- shall not prevail, the end of the story has already been written, and we have it. Read the first three verses of Revelation chapter 20, then for your specific referance to the gates flip over to chapter 21, verse 25 :
"And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day, for there shall be no night there." then if you really want a Blessing read verse 27, it tells you who is going to be present to enjoy heaven in the presence of the Almighty.


----------



## Michael F. Gray (Aug 23, 2011)

I apologize for the censoring. I do not practice profanity, and would only use the the He double hockey sticks word in the Biblical sense. I will try to remember this for future referance. Thanks for the post. It's always a BLESSING to ponder the Word of God.


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 23, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I'm sorry but I forgot I began this subject last night.
> My response has always basically been the same as all the responses.  I talked with a friend recently that caused me to look at it in a little different light than ever before.
> Here's what I came away with (short version).
> 
> ...



For me the gates were opened "against" Adam and "against" the Jews and evil prevailed to the point of stabing Jesus in the side and hanging him on a tree. The gates of death ( hades) prevailed.

 If we were to plan an attack (warfare) on a city for example, or a territory, there would be "gates" of attack. These would be gates not to hold us out, but to get us in and give us advantage of access.

The world has strategic gates not to keep in but to give access. For example, the Suez Canal, Panama Canal, Gibralter and others....

Now because of the restoration due to the ministry of Jesus, even the would be gates of our enemies, especially of death (hades), will serve them defeat and not entry as was the case with Adam's decendants and  also Isreal. 

We mourn no more.

But yes put the other way, if the gates of hades are as was the walls of deaths bastions, Jesus is said to have decended there ( death) and from it the resurrection. The missionary's calling even in our own cities can be such a decent and to which given enough faith, love and life will prevail.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 23, 2011)

This is a new way of approaching the verse.  I've always considered that hel l would be attacking the church so that's what Jesus was talking about.
I'm now happy to say that Christ's church is attacking hel l, and it, and Christ will win.


----------



## Bama4me (Aug 23, 2011)

Though the KJV renders the term "hades" as he11, the actual rendering should be "hades"... or the realm of the dead.  I believe in the passage, there are two possible ideas expressed... and maybe both were meant.

First, according to Acts 20:28, Jesus "bought" the church with His blood... which was shed at the cross.  Death, in the realm of the Divine war against evil... seemed to be a prevailing force that very day.  However, Christ defeated death by being raised.  In Acts 2:24ff, God "loosed the pangs of death" in Christ's case... quite simply, the grave couldn't hold Him.  In that sense, death could not win a victory and prevent the establishment of the church.

Second, according to 1 Corinthians 15:26, the last enemy Christ will destroy is death... not the term "will destroy" (something occuring in the future).  While Christ Himself has personally defeated death, the victory has not been won for all Christians until WE are raised.  On the Great Judgment Day, death will be given a final blow... it will no longer have dominion over human beings again.

The term "gates" in the passage IMO refer to the idea of power.  In New Testament times, elders often assembled and made important decisions at the "gates of cities"... hence the idea of "government" or "strength".  IMO, the term "gates" is implying that the strongest aspect of death/the grave has absolutely no power against what the Lord has established... His precious church.


----------



## mtnwoman (Aug 23, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> the He double hockey sticks



and I thought I was the only one that used that here....lol
h e double hockey sticks...lol.


----------



## mtnwoman (Aug 23, 2011)

Bama4me said:


> The term "gates" in the passage IMO refer to the idea of power.  In New Testament times, elders often assembled and made important decisions at the "gates of cities"... hence the idea of "government" or "strength".  IMO, the term "gates" is implying that the strongest aspect of death/the grave has absolutely no power against what the Lord has established... His precious church.



Jesus will come thru the eastern gate...the gate that is closed with a muslim graveyard right outside, like Jesus can't/won't/trample that graveyard, because someone who doesn't belong to Him calls it holy ground. Jesus did not tell us to obey any  other gods except for Him, nor be tolerant of...tolerance, acceptance/approval of anyone who does believe in another god...our God is a jealous god.


----------



## mtnwoman (Aug 23, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> This is a new way of approaching the verse.  I've always considered that hel l would be attacking the church so that's what Jesus was talking about.
> I'm now happy to say that Christ's church is attacking hel l, and it, and Christ will win.



I know, me, too. See how we march on? we slowly come to wisdom....but it's so multifaceted that whatever you need at the time, that's what it means to you....someone else it means something else, depending on what they personally needed and was convicted of at the time. So multi faceted is the Word of God!! that's so awesome to me!

We are all different in exactly what we believe, so when we actually see (light bulb) what someone else believes that let's us see the Glory of God, the multifacted God!

He promises to bring us into wisdom when we can handle it.


----------



## mtnwoman (Aug 23, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> The gates of hades cannot prevail over justice and mercy or grace. So the gate in this context is everything that is not faith or everything which is not in the heart of Jesus, which is the Father, or God the Just. The gates of hades ,or the gate that leads to the consequences of sin, have no dominion in the spiritual lives of the rightious.
> 
> "My church" is the institution that operates from the ministry of Jesus.



Yes!! 

And so is my church!! Hallelujah to the Lamb of God!

There's only one simple verse that connects us all together that we all believe...Jesus is the Son of God....


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 24, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> This is a new way of approaching the verse. I've always considered that hel l would be attacking the church so that's what Jesus was talking about.
> I'm now happy to say that Christ's church is attacking hel l, and it, and Christ will win.


 
I like this perspective, too.

It gives believers hope that in taking the message outside of "the camp", that our Lord goes before, knocking down the things that are erected against the message of hope.  A timely word may just be the thing that wins the lost.


----------



## Bama4me (Aug 25, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Jesus will come thru the eastern gate...the gate that is closed with a muslim graveyard right outside, like Jesus can't/won't/trample that graveyard, because someone who doesn't belong to Him calls it holy ground. Jesus did not tell us to obey any  other gods except for Him, nor be tolerant of...tolerance, acceptance/approval of anyone who does believe in another god...our God is a jealous god.



Would like to know why you believe Jesus will come through the eastern gate... thinking you must subscribe to premillineilism.?


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 25, 2011)

Here are two older interpretations:

_St. Bede - "The gates of Hades are depraved teachings, which by seducing the imprudent draw them down there. The gates of Hades are also the torments and blandishments of persecutors, which, either by frightening or by cajoling any of the weak away from the stability of the faith, open to them the entrance into everlasting death. But also the wrong-headed works of the unfaithful, or their silly conversations, are surely the gates of Hades, inasmuch as they show their hearers and followers the path of perdition. Many are the gates of Hades, but none of them prevails over the Church that has been founded upon the Rock."_


_Blessed Theophylact - "The gates of hades are those persecutors who from time to time would send the Christians to hades. But the heretics, too, are gates leading to hades. The Church, then, has prevailed over many persecutors and heretics. The Church is also each one of us who has become a house of God. For if we have been established on the confession of Christ, the gates of hades, which are our sins, will not prevail against us. It was from these gates that David, too, had been lifted up when he said, "O Thou that dost raise me up from the gates of death." From what gates, O David? From those twin gates of murder and adultery."_


----------



## gordon 2 (Aug 25, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Here are two older interpretations:
> 
> _St. Bede - "The gates of Hades are depraved teachings, which by seducing the imprudent draw them down there. The gates of Hades are also the torments and blandishments of persecutors, which, either by frightening or by cajoling any of the weak away from the stability of the faith, open to them the entrance into everlasting death. But also the wrong-headed works of the unfaithful, or their silly conversations, are surely the gates of Hades, inasmuch as they show their hearers and followers the path of perdition. Many are the gates of Hades, but none of them prevails over the Church that has been founded upon the Rock."_
> 
> ...



Cool... I really like old folk.  As a matter of fact I love them.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 25, 2011)

The question in this is  "What are the 'gates' of hel l to be?"

Today, a gate is a stationary object that closes to either keep something in,,,,,, or to keep something out.
To day, a gate doesn't attack.  The gate defends.


----------



## huntmore (Aug 25, 2011)

since we are all sinners maybe we are the "something in" and when we choose to become members of his body(Church) we breakout of the gates of hades. OHH that hurt my brain.


----------



## mtnwoman (Aug 26, 2011)

Bama4me said:


> Would like to know why you believe Jesus will come through the eastern gate... thinking you must subscribe to premillineilism.?



I don't know what premillineilism is....I'll check that out.

And I'll find scripture for you about the eastern gate, I'm thinking it is in ezekiel  prophesy.
Jesus will come down on the temple mount, from the eastern gate. I'll find it.


----------



## thedeacon (Aug 26, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Matthew 16:18
> "..........I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
> 
> This verse is usually used to argue whether Peter is the rock or not.
> ...



Jesus said “…I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:18b). This is said in response to Peter's (spoken out loud) confession of whom Jesus actually is, the son of the living God. Jesus is then the  rock, the church is built on and the confession of all Christians, Jesus is the Son of God- the eternal one.  “Thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God.”
Hades is the unseen world, (Hebrew) Sheol or (Greek) Hades (Luke 16:25). This is the place (state) of souls: Sheol is the place of departed spirits the only way to get there is to die.  The gates of Hades is could not hold Jesus, he has shown all power over death, his church is held safe by his death.

“Not prevail” katischuo - to overpower: prevail (against). 
In its primary sense it means that though one may die they will be resurrected again- all believers have the hope of being raised in the likeness of Jesus’ resurrection. So death does not have a victory, the gates of Hades does not have a victory on those who believe. Jesus said in John 14:19 Because I live, you will live also.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.”

John 5:25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.”

John 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

In a secondary sense the book of Acts says God added to the church daily despite the persecution. There will always be the true Church because Jesus promised this – I will build my church, He will never leave or abandon it. The gates will never prevail. 
There will always be a remnant of believers, large or small throughout history and He will be with them. He will continue to build his church despite the opposition to it.

The gate of Saten will never be strong enough to prevail over God or his people as long as they trust him.

Forgive my grammer, sometimes bad grammer makes a better point.

God bless.


----------



## mtnwoman (Aug 26, 2011)

Perhaps I'm a little confused on the eastern gate maybe islam believes that's where Christ will enter and they think they are stopping Him by putting a graveyard outside the gate and also destroying the temple....as if that will stop Christ from returning. I'll search a bit to make sure.

I guess I do subscribe to premillineilism because this is what I believe. After the rapture then we go to the wedding supper of the Lamb....7 yrs...then back to earth when Christ sets up His new kingdom beginning at the temple mount.


>>Premillennialists believe the correct timing of the Rapture is clearly reveled by Christ in His Olivet Discourse, confirmed through Paul in his letter to the Corinthian church and in his Thessalonian epistles, and verified further by John in the book of Revelation.

"Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." - Matthew 24:29-31

After that occurs...

"For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive, and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord." - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed -- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?" - 1 Corinthians 15:51-55


----------



## Bama4me (Aug 26, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." - Matthew 24:29-31



You ever wondered if this section in Matthew 24 could be Jesus answering the first question... not the second one, from verse 3?


----------



## mtnwoman (Aug 26, 2011)

Bama4me said:


> You ever wondered if this section in Matthew 24 could be Jesus answering the first question... not the second one, from verse 3?



Do you mean Jesus is answering the question in verse 3? or are you saying verse 3 is the second question? Not sure exactly what your question is.
Thanks.


----------



## Bama4me (Aug 27, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Do you mean Jesus is answering the question in verse 3? or are you saying verse 3 is the second question? Not sure exactly what your question is.
> Thanks.



There are two questions that Jesus addresses in Matthew 24.  Both of them were asked by the apostles in verse 3.  After Jesus' prediction in verse 2 that the temple would be destroyed, the apostles asked, "when will these things be?  Their second question was "what will be the sign of Your coming and of the close of the age... aka tell us about Your coming/Judgment Day.

The question I asked... probably not too well, was to ask have you ever thought that the content of verses 15-35 might have been Jesus answering the first... not second question of the apostles.


----------



## mtnwoman (Aug 28, 2011)

Bama4me said:


> There are two questions that Jesus addresses in Matthew 24.  Both of them were asked by the apostles in verse 3.  After Jesus' prediction in verse 2 that the temple would be destroyed, the apostles asked, "when will these things be?  Their second question was "what will be the sign of Your coming and of the close of the age... aka tell us about Your coming/Judgment Day.
> 
> The question I asked... probably not too well, was to ask have you ever thought that the content of verses 15-35 might have been Jesus answering the first... not second question of the apostles.



I finally figured out what you meant....lol.

I think Jesus was answering both questions. I'll have to ponder over it and see what happens. I just wanted to let you know that I'm workin' on it.


----------



## BigCharlie (Aug 29, 2011)

*Gates of Hades*

Jesus is saying very powerful that the polytheism (greek belief in many gods) would not prevail against the monotheism of Israel. The false gods of greek paganism would not overcome His new movement, the church.


----------

