# Poison question for Charlie Kilmaster



## Sautee Ridgerunner (May 16, 2021)

A few years back there was talk of a sulfite based poison that was going to be specific to hogs. It seemed initially very promising but I think there was some sort of hiccup. Has there been any headway with that?  Poisoning of wildlife usually has been a giant mistake but this one was getting some legs from what I remember.


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## C.Killmaster (May 16, 2021)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> A few years back there was talk of a sulfite based poison that was going to be specific to hogs. It seemed initially very promising but I think there was some sort of hiccup. Has there been any headway with that?  Poisoning of wildlife usually has been a giant mistake but this one was getting some legs from what I remember.



The toxicant you're referring to is probably sodium nitrite, the one that USDA is researching. It's not hog specific because it will kill other animals, but hogs are a little more susceptible to it.  What they've been working on is a delivery method that only hogs can access, in this case a bin with a weighted lid.  It won't work anywhere you have bears though.  It made it into field trials a couple of years ago, but the hogs left too much of the bait scattered around and it killed a bunch of non-targets, mainly birds.  After that they went back to the drawing board to re-encapsulate it more so there wouldn't be a taste aversion and change the consistency of the bait.  Sodium nitrite is just a curing salt, ironically what's used in sausage and bacon, and tastes really salty.  I think they are getting close to doing another round of field trials.

Here are some links with more info:

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/wildlife_damage/feral-swine-bait.pdf
https://www.aphis.usda.gov/wildlife...amage_and_ Disease_Feral_Swine_ Ungulates.pdf
https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ne..._by_date/sa-2018/sa-06/feral-swine-bait-trial


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (May 16, 2021)

Thanks so much for the very informative reply. 

Yeah, it seems these things never work out the way we want them to. Id just as soon never see this stuff come to market if it’s going to have that type of bykill. Especially to bears. 

Ive actually been shocked by how well the dnr trapping seems to be working on some of the mtn wma’s. Those cell cam triggered traps are brutal!


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## C.Killmaster (May 16, 2021)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> Thanks so much for the very informative reply.
> 
> Yeah, it seems these things never work out the way we want them to. Id just as soon never see this stuff come to market if it’s going to have that type of bykill. Especially to bears.
> 
> Ive actually been shocked by how well the dnr trapping seems to be working on some of the mtn wma’s. Those cell cam triggered traps are brutal!



We've got some technicians that take hog trapping very seriously and they are good at it.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (May 16, 2021)

Yeah. Ive got a real good biologist buddy who works down SW. When a single pig shows up on RC, it doesnt last long.


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## across the river (May 16, 2021)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> Thanks so much for the very informative reply.
> 
> Yeah, it seems these things never work out the way we want them to. Id just as soon never see this stuff come to market if it’s going to have that type of bykill. Especially to bears.
> 
> Ive actually been shocked by how well the dnr trapping seems to be working on some of the mtn wma’s. Those cell cam triggered traps are brutal!


They have been using it for years in Australia and New Zeland with very little impact to non target species. This isn’t something new that has never been done before.


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## NMH5050 (May 17, 2021)

C.Killmaster said:


> We've got some technicians that take hog trapping very seriously and they are good at it.




Is there a way to get the technicians to come to our farm and trap? Thanks!


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## strothershwacker (May 20, 2021)

Who wants this? Whats the motive? I've walked all over Georgia and ain't found justification for trying to eradicate a whole species.


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## JustUs4All (May 20, 2021)

I do, for one, and I don't have a hog problem personally.


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## NMH5050 (May 20, 2021)

strothershwacker said:


> Who wants this? Whats the motive? I've walked all over Georgia and ain't found justification for trying to eradicate a whole species.



I just bought a farm and mowed all of my roads before that 2 days of rain a few weeks ago. The next week I came back and it looked like bombs went off for a 100 yards.  My story is mild to what I have seen them do at a friend's place. They are a huge menace.


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## strothershwacker (May 20, 2021)

NMH5050 said:


> I just bought a farm and mowed all of my roads before that 2 days of rain a few weeks ago. The next week I came back and it looked like bombs went off for a 100 yards.  My story is mild to what I have seen them do at a friend's place. They are a huge menace.


 I've seen the damage they can do but I ain't seen nothing that warrants killing them all and everything else in the area with poison. The "target" species will NEVER be the only one affected. We pave bout 200 thousand new acres a year in this state, yet worry bout what hogs are doing to the land? It's all about the $. The same people that want them poisoned would be turning them loose on there property if they could figure out have to profit from them.


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## C.Killmaster (May 20, 2021)

strothershwacker said:


> I've seen the damage they can do but I ain't seen nothing that warrants killing them all and everything else in the area with poison. The "target" species will NEVER be the only one affected. We pave bout 200 thousand new acres a year in this state, yet worry bout what hogs are doing to the land? It's all about the $. The same people that want them poisoned would be turning them loose on there property if they could figure out have to profit from them.



I'm pretty sure we're always going to have pigs in Georgia whether this toxicant gets approved or not.  Using the toxicants isn't going to be something that leads to the eradication of pigs, it's another management tool along with shooting and trapping.  You have to train pigs to operate the special feeder before you can put out the toxicant and it's going to be limited to use by trained professionals, not just available to the general public.  I'm sure there are some people that would love to eradicate pigs, but I think most would be happy to just push population numbers and distribution back to where it was 20 or 30 years ago.


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## NMH5050 (May 20, 2021)

strothershwacker said:


> I've seen the damage they can do but I ain't seen nothing that warrants killing them all and everything else in the area with poison. The "target" species will NEVER be the only one affected. We pave bout 200 thousand new acres a year in this state, yet worry bout what hogs are doing to the land? It's all about the $. The same people that want them poisoned would be turning them loose on there property if they could figure out have to profit from them.




I agree with you about the poison part. It would kill other animals that are not being targeted. I am more for trapping them. If somehow it would only kill them I would gladly use it but that is not the case.


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## C.Killmaster (May 20, 2021)

NMH5050 said:


> I agree with you about the poison part. It would kill other animals that are not being targeted. I am more for trapping them. If somehow it would only kill them I would gladly use it but that is not the case.



That's exactly what they are testing, delivering the poison through a feeder that only pigs can access. No one would even be considering poison unless you can eliminate or severely reduce any deaths from animals other than pigs.


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## NMH5050 (May 20, 2021)

C.Killmaster said:


> That's exactly what they are testing, delivering the poison through a feeder that only pigs can access. No one would even be considering poison unless you can eliminate or severely reduce any deaths from animals other than pigs.




Where are they mainly testing at?


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (May 20, 2021)

strothershwacker said:


> Who wants this? Whats the motive? I've walked all over Georgia and ain't found justification for trying to eradicate a whole species.



Oh, I can assure you that if someone presented me with a button that would instantly kill every feral hog in the US, Id mash that mother instantly!


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## strothershwacker (May 20, 2021)

C.Killmaster said:


> That's exactly what they are testing, delivering the poison through a feeder that only pigs can access. No one would even be considering poison unless you can eliminate or severely reduce any deaths from animals other than pigs.


Can a hog not consume enough nitrite to be poisonous to whatever eats it? You may find a way to get it only into the hog, but how you gonna keep the hog out of the coons, coyotes, fox, opossum, bear ect.. ect...?


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## strothershwacker (May 20, 2021)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> Oh, I can assure you that if someone presented me with a button that would instantly kill every feral hog in the US, Id mash that mother instantly!


Why?


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## across the river (May 20, 2021)

strothershwacker said:


> Can a hog not consume enough nitrite to be poisonous to whatever eats it? You may find a way to get it only into the hog, but how you gonna keep the hog out of the coons, coyotes, fox, opossum, bear ect.. ect...?


 They have been doing this in New Zeland and Australia for years, an there is a bunch of info out there regarding this.  The risk to other animals and humans that eat the poisoned pig is essentially nil.  In short sodium nitrite is NaSO2.  Sodium Nitrate is NaSO3 which is stable,  so the nitrite either wants to react with something to pull another oxygen or stabilize the molecule. Sodium nitrate essentially poisons them like Carbon Monoxide CO which does essentially the same thing.  Carbon Dioxide CO2 is more stable and you breathe it in and out all the time.  Once the pig dies, the “Poison” has already reacted so there is nothing to really poisonous( reactive) to pass along.  Just like if you killed a cow with carbon monoxide, you could eat it and not get harmed at all.


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## GeorgiaBob (May 20, 2021)

strothershwacker said:


> Who wants this? Whats the motive? I've walked all over Georgia and ain't found justification for trying to eradicate a whole species.



I do. Feral hogs are an invasive species. They are not native to North America and many native species cannot compete nor thrive where hogs have moved in. Hogs damage habitat for many game animals, consume far too much of the resources in any area, and reproduce too rapidly.

Most farmers also hate feral pigs. One sounder can destroy hundreds of acres of crops in a very short time. The scrapes and digs the hogs leave behind can damage tractors and harvesters. Feral hogs cost farmers lost of money. (note: I am not a farmer.)


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## Nicodemus (May 20, 2021)

Good friend of mine who lives and farms in Early County has caught 460 since this past March was a year ago. And he is still eat up in them.


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## campboy (May 20, 2021)

Nicodemus said:


> Good friend of mine who lives and farms in Early County has caught 460 since this past March was a year ago. And he is still eat up in them.



Y'all keep em down there please


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (May 20, 2021)

strothershwacker said:


> Why?



Is that a serious question?  They are an ecological nightmare. They change communities at a landscape level. Not to mention the agricultural damage.


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## C.Killmaster (May 20, 2021)

strothershwacker said:


> Can a hog not consume enough nitrite to be poisonous to whatever eats it? You may find a way to get it only into the hog, but how you gonna keep the hog out of the coons, coyotes, fox, opossum, bear ect.. ect...?



That's called secondary toxicity.  From what I understand, sodium nitrite is what they chose because it gets metabolized by the hogs body and breaks down and isn't poisonous to other critters that eat the hogs.


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## C.Killmaster (May 20, 2021)

NMH5050 said:


> Where are they mainly testing at?



Texas and Alabama, those links I listed above should have that info.


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## across the river (May 20, 2021)

C.Killmaster said:


> That's called secondary toxicity.  From what I understand, sodium nitrite is what they chose because it gets metabolized by the hogs body and breaks down and isn't poisonous to other critters that eat the hogs.




He is an article on it when used for possum control across the pond, but the takeaway was:

"The results of this study indicate there is no, or at worst a very low, risk of secondary poisoning for dogs, cats and birds that eat the carcasses and/or vital organs of possums poisoned with baits containing 10% NaNO . The results indicating a lack of
secondary poisoning risk are consistent with the relatively low
acute toxicity of NaNO2 versus other vertebrate toxic agents and the rapid excretion of NaNO2 (Kohn et al. 2002; MRI 2004). The LD50 for NaNO2 in possums is approximately 121.6 mg kg-1 (95% CI 45.36–169.6 mg kg-1) (Shapiro et al. 2016) compared to 1.2 mg kg-1 for 1080 in possums (Eason et al. 2011). As well as no obvious signs of methaemoglobinaemia being observed in dogs, cats or chickens, the blood chemistry parameters analysed for dogs and cats indicated that after they consumed possum carcasses their liver and renal function remained normal and there was no damage to muscle tissue."

https://newzealandecology.org/nzje/3321.pdf


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## antharper (May 20, 2021)

I know wild hogs have to be controlled but I don’t agree with poisoning .


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## strothershwacker (May 20, 2021)

Well if we're gonna poison invasive species that ruin the countryside let's start with yankees.


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## antharper (May 20, 2021)

strothershwacker said:


> Well if we're gonna poison invasive species that ruin the countryside let's start with yankees.


Then coyotes


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## Throwback (May 20, 2021)

C.Killmaster said:


> I'm pretty sure we're always going to have pigs in Georgia whether this toxicant gets approved or not.  Using the toxicants isn't going to be something that leads to the eradication of pigs, it's another management tool along with shooting and trapping.  You have to train pigs to operate the special feeder before you can put out the toxicant and it's going to be limited to use by trained professionals, not just available to the general public.  I'm sure there are some people that would love to eradicate pigs, but I think most would be happy to just push population numbers and distribution back to where it was 20 or 30 years ago.View attachment 1081567View attachment 1081568


At least three of those 2019 Georgia counties have hogs in them now. One in particular because one of our village idiots thought it would be a good idea to have a couple of trailer loads of wild hogs turned loose on his 20 acre ponderosa ?


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (May 21, 2021)

People are still turning tameys loose in the mtns. Ill never understand it. We are already covered in those plague rats


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## livinoutdoors (May 21, 2021)

I think poison is the wrong idea myself, but i do agree that the numbers need to be kept in check.
 As a side note its funny the things we consider foriegn invaders to our landscape or invasive. Our country is covered in acres and acres of grass from europe, asia, and africa. There are trees and shrubs and vegetables from every corner of the earth. People from all over too. In huge numbers. That take land and bulldoze it into a parking lot for a new whatever. Pigs aint got nothin on people tearin up the land.


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## C.Killmaster (May 21, 2021)

across the river said:


> He is an article on it when used for possum control across the pond, but the takeaway was:
> 
> "The results of this study indicate there is no, or at worst a very low, risk of secondary poisoning for dogs, cats and birds that eat the carcasses and/or vital organs of possums poisoned with baits containing 10% NaNO . The results indicating a lack of
> secondary poisoning risk are consistent with the relatively low
> acute toxicity of NaNO2 versus other vertebrate toxic agents and the rapid excretion of NaNO2 (Kohn et al. 2002; MRI 2004). The LD50 for NaNO2 in possums is approximately 121.6 mg kg-1 (95% CI 45.36–169.6 mg kg-1) (Shapiro et al. 2016) compared to 1.2 mg kg-1 for 1080 in possums (Eason et al. 2011). As well as no obvious signs of methaemoglobinaemia being observed in dogs, cats or chickens, the blood chemistry parameters analysed for dogs and cats indicated that after they consumed possum carcasses their liver and renal function remained normal and there was no damage to muscle tissue."



Yep, that's what I recalled.  No secondary poisoning, but if birds get a hold of the original bait it will kill them.  That's why keeping it out of reach for other species is the only way it will work.


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## Nicodemus (May 21, 2021)

livinoutdoors said:


> I think poison is the wrong idea myself, but i do agree that the numbers need to be kept in check.
> As a side note its funny the things we consider foriegn invaders to our landscape or invasive. Our country is covered in acres and acres of grass from europe, asia, and africa. There are trees and shrubs and vegetables from every corner of the earth. People from all over too. In huge numbers. That take land and bulldoze it into a parking lot for a new whatever. Pigs aint got nothin on people tearin up the land.




I kill every chinese tallow tree I come across. I also cut down the sawtooth oaks I planted around my pasture, but two, and they are next to feel the ax.


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## Throwback (May 21, 2021)

Nicodemus said:


> I kill every chinese tallow tree I come across. I also cut down the sawtooth oaks I planted around my pasture, but two, and they are next to feel the ax.


I have an app on my phone that helps me ID Plants, trees, animals, insects etc. but I use it mostly for plants and trees. It’s amazing how many non native plants there are.


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## The Original Rooster (May 21, 2021)

Nicodemus said:


> I kill every chinese tallow tree I come across. I also cut down the sawtooth oaks I planted around my pasture, but two, and they are next to feel the ax.


I understand the tallow trees but why the sawtooth's brother?


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## Nicodemus (May 21, 2021)

RoosterTodd said:


> I understand the tallow trees but why the sawtooth's brother?




Because they are not native either. They`re an Asian tree.


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## livinoutdoors (May 21, 2021)

Nicodemus said:


> I kill every chinese tallow tree I come across. I also cut down the sawtooth oaks I planted around my pasture, but two, and they are next to feel the ax.


Yep, i guess at this point all we can really do is try to manage the bad stuff and use the good.


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## Mark R (May 21, 2021)

Well, for those with the terrible pig problems , Myself and others  love huntin and trappin hogs . Must not be such a problem  .


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## Bowyer29 (May 21, 2021)

oldways said:


> Yep this tends to be bad, looking back at history when men tried to eradicate species..


But this species is nonnative. They NEED to be gone.


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## Bowyer29 (May 21, 2021)

strothershwacker said:


> Why?


Because they are invasive and do not belong.


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## Bowyer29 (May 21, 2021)

oldways said:


> I don't want to get in a debate about this because so many people hate hogs. But if you want to know the truth cows are nonnative too, them and hogs were both brought to this country by the Spanish a long time ago.. just a thought and I'm sorry they cause you so much trouble good luck with them...


No issues here at all.
I believe the difference is that there are no wild cattle here. 
Hogs cause me no issues, as there are none where I hunt, I just would rather we did not have them running around, causing millions in damages each year. Cows make us money, hgs don't, generally speaking.


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## Bowyer29 (May 21, 2021)

strothershwacker said:


> Well if we're gonna poison invasive species that ruin the countryside let's start with yankees.


Oh boy.


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## across the river (May 21, 2021)

oldways said:


> I don't want to get in a debate about this because so many people hate hogs. But if you want to know the truth cows are nonnative too, them and hogs were both brought to this country by the Spanish a long time ago.. just a thought and I'm sorry they cause you so much trouble good luck with them...


There is a difference between non native and invasive.


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## Nicodemus (May 21, 2021)

Bowyer29 said:


> No issues here at all.
> I believe the difference is that there are no wild cattle here.
> Hogs cause me no issues, as there are none where I hunt, I just would rather we did not have them running around, causing millions in damages each year. Cows make us money, hgs don't, generally speaking.




The last wild cattle I saw here in Georgia was somewhere around 1965, give or take a year.


They didn`t do any harm, but hogs are a different story.


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## strothershwacker (May 21, 2021)

Bowyer29 said:


> Oh boy.


It was meant to be a joke. We can still joke on here can't we?


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## strothershwacker (May 21, 2021)

Seriously though, we're trying to develope a way for the hogs to eat from some sort of feeder that nothing else can get the poisoned feed from?


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## across the river (May 21, 2021)

Mark R said:


> Well, for those with the terrible pig problems , Myself and others  love huntin and trappin hogs . Must not be such a problem  .



People always say that, but they don't really wants to hunt them or trap them enough to make it worthwhile to the landowner to have someone riding all over there property., rutting up fields, roads, etc....  People want to "help" until they killed or trapped a couple or few and filled their freezer.  That does nothing for the landowner overrun with them.   There is zero benefit to the landowner 99% of the time in letting someone hunt them.   You are better off trapping them yourself, paying someone who does it for a living to trap them, and feeding what you can't give away to the buzzards.


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## across the river (May 21, 2021)

strothershwacker said:


> Seriously though, we're trying to develope a way for the hogs to eat from some sort of feeder that nothing else can get the poisoned feed from?



Yes 

https://www.lsuagcenter.com/profiles/aiverson/articles/page1510263821044

Sodium nitrite is more lethal to pigs than most other mammals, so a does that wouldn't impact say, a dog, will kill a pigs.  There are plenty of nitrates natural in vegetables, which can be converted to nitrites in the body.  There are also plenty of nitrites use in meat preservation and medicine.    You intake nitrates and nitrites all the time, people just don't normally have any issues with either unless the ingest a ton via an medicine overdose.  It isn't like 1080 that is lethal a really small doses to most mammals including humans.  If you have used "curing salt" to make jerky or anything, you have used sodium nitrite. 

The problem is small animals, like birds, can more easily eat enough for it to be fatal to them, than say a dog.  The "challenge" is to make sure the pigs eat it, and the small animals like birds don't. 

https://www.timesrecordnews.com/sto...ack-feral-hog-poison-testing-texas/629868002/


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## nmurph (May 21, 2021)

Nicodemus said:


> I kill every chinese tallow tree I come across. I also cut down the sawtooth oaks I planted around my pasture, but two, and they are next to feel the ax.



...and Japanese Creeping Fern.


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## dixiecutter (May 21, 2021)

Nicodemus said:


> Good friend of mine who lives and farms in Early County has caught 460 since this past March was a year ago. And he is still eat up in them.


Mine too, Early County.


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## dixiecutter (May 21, 2021)

oldways said:


> Your right about that, where would classified men at? just curious


God gave man dominion. We're neither.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (May 21, 2021)

livinoutdoors said:


> I think poison is the wrong idea myself, but i do agree that the numbers need to be kept in check.
> As a side note its funny the things we consider foriegn invaders to our landscape or invasive. Our country is covered in acres and acres of grass from europe, asia, and africa. There are trees and shrubs and vegetables from every corner of the earth. People from all over too. In huge numbers. That take land and bulldoze it into a parking lot for a new whatever. Pigs aint got nothin on people tearin up the land.



Ive been a huge proponent of human population control my entire life. I wish the govt would man up and address it but that sint ever gonna happen so we are all likely destined to walk hand in obese hand into the sunset.


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## antharper (May 21, 2021)

strothershwacker said:


> Seriously though, we're trying to develope a way for the hogs to eat from some sort of feeder that nothing else can get the poisoned feed from?


Yes , it’s already been developed . Being tested now . I think it was developed and tested a couple of years ago and didn’t work . Killed to many non target animals .


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## Throwback (May 21, 2021)

Hogs make a mess when they eat. Why? Because They’re hogs.


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## C.Killmaster (May 21, 2021)

Throwback said:


> Hogs make a mess when they eat. Why? Because They’re hogs.



Actually they cleaned up the placebo bait pretty we and didn't leave anything for non-targets to get.  There was some taste aversion once they added the sodium nitrite, so the hogs didn't clean up the scraps as well.


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## Heath (May 22, 2021)

Yeah, government use of poison will surely be a good thing!  
“Strychnine” I rest my case!
Seems as though many of you aren’t aware we were killing hogs, at least here in the mountains, for decades before TV and social media told you they were here and a nuisance.


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## Timberjack86 (May 22, 2021)

C.Killmaster said:


> We've got some technicians that take hog trapping very seriously and they are good at it.


Too bad Just north of cohutta and CNF Tn protects hogs year round in the Cherokee National  forest  bear reserve, except during deer season which may total a month long. Rest of the year there off limits.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (May 23, 2021)

Timberjack86 said:


> Too bad Just north of cohutta and CNF Tn protects hogs year round in the Cherokee National  forest  bear reserve, except during deer season which may total a month long. Rest of the year there off limits.



Im convinced that regular hunting of them does nearly nothing for control anyway. Trapping is where it’s at. Same as coyotes.


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## Heath (May 23, 2021)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> Im convinced that regular hunting of them does nearly nothing for control anyway. Trapping is where it’s at. Same as coyotes.



Sooo.... I’m allowed to kill hogs with my dogs for 3months out of a 12 month year and you think I should be able to control mountain hog population?  We use to be able to hunt them year round until you Atlanta deer and Turkey hunters had us regulated to 3 months in the late 90’s or early 2000’s.  We never had a problem controlling them until y’all got involved in the first place.  
Now I’m supposed to believe you know what’s best for us again?
I’ll pass!


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## Heath (May 23, 2021)

Thanks for allowing me 15 days and telling me I can’t control hogs as well as year round trapping.  Makes perfect sense.


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## across the river (May 23, 2021)

Heath said:


> Sooo.... I’m allowed to kill hogs with my dogs for 3months out of a 12 month year and you think I should be able to control mountain hog population?  We use to be able to hunt them year round until you Atlanta deer and Turkey hunters had us regulated to 3 months in the late 90’s or early 2000’s.  We never had a problem controlling them until y’all got involved in the first place.
> Now I’m supposed to believe you know what’s best for us again?
> I’ll pass!



 What is the most you have killed in a year with dogs?


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## Heath (May 23, 2021)

Wouldn’t know an exact number but I’ve caught 100 head counting Sounders and pigs.  I could easily have killed a bunch out of groups like that but choose not to because of my beliefs and how we were raised. That’s 100% mountain public land between here and North Carolina.  That’s an extended season because I can hunt there when I can’t here.  I couldn’t touch that number in Georgia alone with only 3 months.  Too many foot miles in between mountain hogs.


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## across the river (May 23, 2021)

Heath said:


> Wouldn’t know an exact number but I’ve caught 100 head counting Sounders and pigs.  I could easily have killed a bunch out of groups like that but choose not to because of my beliefs and how we were raised. That’s 100% mountain public land between here and North Carolina.  That’s an extended season because I can hunt there when I can’t here.  I couldn’t touch that number in Georgia alone with only 3 months.  Too many foot miles in between mountain hogs.



How many do you thin a trapper could have tapped in that same area?


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## Heath (May 23, 2021)

Less than 100% of the hogs in that area.  Make no mistake about what I’m saying, trapping is a great tool.  Just as dog hunting and still hunting alike.  I’m not a wordsmith so I’m sure I’ve led you to believe I think trapping is inferior when I’m not at all.  They all have a place.  Giving one preferential treatment over another is only going to limit control efforts.  I don’t know the first thing about hogs outside of the mountains so what I refer to is strictly in this region.  My point is,  many are acting as if hogs are a recent phenomenon when in fact we’ve been hunting them for decades and only recently(last 20 years) have they dispersed into new areas.  The only common trend over that time has been the reduction of all avenues of pursuit on public land coupled with a drastic reduction in hunter numbers overall.  Killmaster said it correctly,  we will have hogs for all time.  We are wasting effort chasing the foolish notion that they can be eradicated.  The government is the last entity that will effectively help without doing more harm than good.  If they would deregulate them the private sector would have a far greater impact through trapping on private lands, dog hunting, and still hunting.  You ever notice what happens after you trap an area for extended periods?  You catch the dumb ones and allow the others to become trap shy and they go on to reproduce and the cycle continues.  Anecdotal, but it’s what I saw 15 years ago when I spent a little time with a man contracted at 2 state parks for hog removal.  It’s another money pit the government has dug.  I pray we never see another time when we allow our government to poison anything. 
My answer to your question is no.  If you take a month in a block of land with a trap and me with my dogs in the same month.  You won’t kill more than me.
If you are allowed to trap 24 hours a day and me only hunt 3 months during daylight hours as we are doing right now then yes you can have a greater impact.  You may be aware but most people are not.  If they would take the regulation off hogs and let me hunt them 24 hours a day year round then I could run impressive numbers as well.  The advantage is there are 100’s of others like me that would work at it as well.  That’s a relatively easy solution without causing the state and taxpayers time and money.  Why would anyone jump from deregulation to putting out poison?  There are many steps in between that should be tried beforehand.  Luckily we have bear and that has and will keep the poison talk away.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (May 23, 2021)

Heath said:


> Sooo.... I’m allowed to kill hogs with my dogs for 3months out of a 12 month year and you think I should be able to control mountain hog population?  We use to be able to hunt them year round until you Atlanta deer and Turkey hunters had us regulated to 3 months in the late 90’s or early 2000’s.  We never had a problem controlling them until y’all got involved in the first place.
> Now I’m supposed to believe you know what’s best for us again?
> I’ll pass!



I never said anything of the like.  I’d be happy if you could run pig dogs year round.  I would be in total support of that.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (May 23, 2021)

You probably will never believe me but Im a huge proponent of hound hunting. Id like to see bear dogging and pig hunting returned to the mtns in a big way. I just hate the way this has been managed initially.


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## Para Bellum (May 23, 2021)

strothershwacker said:


> Who wants this? Whats the motive? I've walked all over Georgia and ain't found justification for trying to eradicate a whole species.



They ain’t supposed to be here.


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## Heath (May 23, 2021)

Sautee Ridgerunner said:


> I never said anything of the like.  I’d be happy if you could run pig dogs year round.  I would be in total support of that.



Wasn’t directed at you specifically,  just my thoughts on poisoning wildlife.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (May 23, 2021)

Heath said:


> Wasn’t directed at you specifically,  just my thoughts on poisoning wildlife.



Im with you there for sure.


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## Bowyer29 (May 24, 2021)

strothershwacker said:


> It was meant to be a joke. We can still joke on here can't we?


I'm sorry sir. I meant no disrespect, and I should have added a smiley face. I would never take offense at something like that. 
Again, my apologies.


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## Para Bellum (May 24, 2021)

Y'all wanna build a far and sing kumbaya together?


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## Para Bellum (May 24, 2021)

Any thoughts on spraying kudzu?  Privet?  Wisteria?


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (May 24, 2021)

Para Bellum said:


> Any thoughts on spraying kudzu?  Privet?  Wisteria?



I would happily feed free range housecats and feral hog piglets to a hungry crocodile.


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## strothershwacker (May 24, 2021)

Poisoning anything in the food chain just goes against everything I've ever learned about the outdoors. We gonna make an exception now because its a non-native species? I think the all mighty dollar is calling these shots. It seems to be the governing authority in everything these days.


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## strothershwacker (May 24, 2021)

Just drop agent orange on all the wooded creek bottoms and thickets around the ag fields that way the pigs won't have anywhere to hide. It'll work perfectly with no repercussions!


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## sleepr71 (May 24, 2021)

Or...just leave the wild hogs alone. They will outbreed everything else & eventually dominate the woods. Deer & Turkey will be displaced. Waterways will get ruined by pig poop ,and the price of groceries WILL go up. That farmer that has to repair equipment,and replant 2-3 times due to hogs...all that is going to get passed on to us consumers.All of us. I can’t think of one positive thing that wild hogs do,that’s beneficial to the environment/habitat.


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## across the river (May 25, 2021)

strothershwacker said:


> Poisoning anything in the food chain just goes against everything I've ever learned about the outdoors. We gonna make an exception now because its a non-native species? I think the all mighty dollar is calling these shots. It seems to be the governing authority in everything these days.


 
So you have never taken medicine, eaten meat, eaten vegetables that were fertilized with, you guessed it, nitrites and nitrites?   Stuff gets “poisoned” all the time from rats to weeds, to aquatic plants, to people ODing on prescription meds.  This isn’t agent orange, or 1080 or anything of the like.  It works like carbon monoxide “poison” that you pump out of the back of your truck everyday.  Maybe you should stop driving and “poisioning” the environment.  There is no magic bullet, and they will never be eradicated, anymore than rats or mosquitos have been.  It is another piece to the puzzle of at least some form of control.  Quit worrying, it isn’t that big of a deal.  Do a little research on Australia.  They have been doing it there for years and the kangaroos and crocs are still doing fine.  Then food chain is still in tact.


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## Heath (May 25, 2021)

across the river said:


> So you have never taken medicine, eaten meat, eaten vegetables that were fertilized with, you guessed it, nitrites and nitrites?   Stuff gets “poisoned” all the time from rats to weeds, to aquatic plants, to people ODing on prescription meds.  This isn’t agent orange, or 1080 or anything of the like.  It works like carbon monoxide “poison” that you pump out of the back of your truck everyday.  Maybe you should stop driving and “poisioning” the environment.  There is no magic bullet, and they will never be eradicated, anymore than rats or mosquitos have been.  It is another piece to the puzzle of at least some form of control.  Quit worrying, it isn’t that big of a deal.  Do a little research on Australia.  They have been doing it there for years and the kangaroos and crocs are still doing fine.  Then food chain is still in tact.



And they still have unreal numbers of hogs. Poison never works it just creates another issue we have to take care of later on.  And comparing killing rats to killing hogs is apples to oranges in most situations.  I have no problem with a farmer protecting his farm by killing hogs.  I have a huge problem with that farmer coming onto public land where we’ve been managing our hog problem for 100 years and poisoning hogs because he thinks he may have a future problem.  You see where the comparison is silly?  I can come up with all kinds of foolish examples to make a case just like you can.  I have a farm.  I border 2 other farms.  I do a lot of work on another farm.  All of them have had hog problems I have addressed in years past.  Didn’t need to poison or kill off every hog in Georgia to solve it either.  Every hog killed was eaten as well.  
You boys gonna appreciate these hogs by the time the democrats are done with this country.  We all gonna have to survive on what we can catch and grow again.


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## across the river (May 25, 2021)

Heath said:


> And they still have unreal numbers of hogs. Poison never works it just creates another issue we have to take care of later on.  And comparing killing rats to killing hogs is apples to oranges in most situations.  I have no problem with a farmer protecting his farm by killing hogs.  I have a huge problem with that farmer coming onto public land where we’ve been managing our hog problem for 100 years and poisoning hogs because he thinks he may have a future problem.  You see where the comparison is silly?  I can come up with all kinds of foolish examples to make a case just like you can.  I have a farm.  I border 2 other farms.  I do a lot of work on another farm.  All of them have had hog problems I have addressed in years past.  Didn’t need to poison or kill off every hog in Georgia to solve it either.  Every hog killed was eaten as well.
> You boys gonna appreciate these hogs by the time the democrats are done with this country.  We all gonna have to survive on what we can catch and grow again.


Why would a farmer go onto public land to poison a pig?  What are you talking about?


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## Joe Brandon (May 25, 2021)

strothershwacker said:


> Just drop agent orange on all the wooded creek bottoms and thickets around the ag fields that way the pigs won't have anywhere to hide. It'll work perfectly with no repercussions!


Right?! And if one thinks Uncle Sam is going to make sure all of God's Creatures are safe prior to the march of the pigs lets not forget about the Tuskegee Study, and thats just the first of many "experiments" that come to mind, now about the pigs.


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## C.Killmaster (May 25, 2021)

If this does ever get approved it's use will be limited to trained wildlife biologists/technicians under very strict circumstances.  It's not going to be available over the counter for every farmer to go spread indiscriminately across the landscape.


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## across the river (May 25, 2021)

Joe Brandon said:


> Right?! And if one thinks Uncle Sam is going to make sure all of God's Creatures are safe prior to the march of the pigs lets not forget about the Tuskegee Study, and thats just the first of many "experiments" that come to mind, now about the pigs.


 

You all are hilarious.  It is funny how your view of the government, and the DNR specifically, varies day to day and month to month.   The are looking a “poisoning” pigs with the same salt you guys buy and liberally put on your deer jerky and you want to compared it to using agent orange and a federal study withholding penicillin that could have cured an STD, just to see how it progressed in the unknowing participants.   The government is “evil” because they want to poison a stupid feral hog, which I might add is only really a problem to begin with b/c a bunch of rednecks wanted to haul them all over the South to hunt.  Just like Alabama spots, blueback herring, Asian carp, CWD, or any other number of issues the state governments has to try to address because idiots made stupid choices.  Now fast forward to November or next April when you same people aren’t seeing deer or turkeys because you have 25 people hunting 250 acres , land covered in one big sheet of pine needles, or the WMA you hunted as a kid has more people in it than it used to, and we will get to hear how you want the same “evil” government agencies change the regulations.  Because of course if you aren’t see deer or turkeys, it is their fault.  They need to “fix it.” You like to let your dogs run
all over creation chasing pigs and hunting them,  often on public land mine you that the “evil” government provides access to, so there is “no need to fix” that. Funny how your view of the government changes depending on what side of the argument you are on.   No one is going to poisonous everything with sodium nitrite.   Do a little research on it.  It
isn’t that big of a deal, even if it
does get approved.  Red stag all still all over New Zealand, and they’ve been using it for years.


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## sleepr71 (May 25, 2021)

The only people who want Hogs...are the ones that don’t have to deal with their destruction...


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## strothershwacker (May 25, 2021)

I


across the river said:


> So you have never taken medicine, eaten meat, eaten vegetables that were fertilized with, you guessed it, nitrites and nitrites?   Stuff gets “poisoned” all the time from rats to weeds, to aquatic plants, to people ODing on prescription meds.  This isn’t agent orange, or 1080 or anything of the like.  It works like carbon monoxide “poison” that you pump out of the back of your truck everyday.  Maybe you should stop driving and “poisioning” the environment.  There is no magic bullet, and they will never be eradicated, anymore than rats or mosquitos have been.  It is another piece to the puzzle of at least some form of control.  Quit worrying, it isn’t that big of a deal.  Do a little research on Australia.  They have been doing it there for years and the kangaroos and crocs are still doing fine.  Then food chain is still in tact.


 I understand completely how nitrites & nitrates work. Where they come from, what their used for and how they react in the body after being exposed to different tempatures. Having an opinion different from yours does not mean that I'm ignorant or uneducated. We've made it with hogs in this country for hundreds of years now and they've not taken over. The sky isn't falling. Yes my old truck puts off carbon monoxide. Yes I eat cheese, slim jims and wine. I've even sprayed a wasp nest. I probably sniffed yer weight in powder during my 20's. I hate a cat. Absolutely hate them. Worst critter the good Lord made. But I dont wanna see them ALL wiped out just because I don't like them. I guess we was just raised different when it comes to hunting and fishing thats all. Sorry I breathed up so much of your air.


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## Heath (May 25, 2021)

across the river said:


> Why would a farmer go onto public land to poison a pig?  What are you talking about?



I believe the original post was about poisoning hogs here in the mountains.  That means public land.  I am no dumb redneck and I’ve never hauled a hog around and turned it loose.  My family has been eating them for 60 or 70 years that I know of and I also enjoy hunting them for fun more so than necessity like my grandfather and great grandfather had to.  You can relax,  my opinion is the minority and will eventually lose in the long run.
Yes, people have ignorantly introduced species but our government has introduced just as many wildlife problems.  Seems like you have a lot of faith in the government, I do not.



strothershwacker said:


> I
> 
> I understand completely how nitrites & nitrates work. Where they come from, what their used for and how they react in the body after being exposed to different tempatures. Having an opinion different from yours does not mean that I'm ignorant or uneducated. We've made it with hogs in this country for hundreds of years now and they've not taken over. The sky isn't falling. Yes my old truck puts off carbon monoxide. Yes I eat cheese, slim jims and wine. I've even sprayed a wasp nest. I probably sniffed yer weight in powder during my 20's. I hate a cat. Absolutely hate them. Worst critter the good Lord made. But I dont wanna see them ALL wiped out just because I don't like them. I guess we was just raised different when it comes to hunting and fishing thats all. Sorry I breathed up so much of your air.



Yes sir, keep preaching.  You nailed what I was trying to get at.



sleepr71 said:


> The only people who want Hogs...are the ones that don’t have to deal with their destruction...


That’s false.  kill them off your land but don’t come to mine and tell me what’s good for me because it’s good for you.


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## Heath (May 25, 2021)

across the river said:


> You all are hilarious.  It is funny how your view of the government, and the DNR specifically, varies day to day and month to month.   The are looking a “poisoning” pigs with the same salt you guys buy and liberally put on your deer jerky and you want to compared it to using agent orange and a federal study withholding penicillin that could have cured an STD, just to see how it progressed in the unknowing participants.   The government is “evil” because they want to poison a stupid feral hog, which I might add is only really a problem to begin with b/c a bunch of rednecks wanted to haul them all over the South to hunt.  Just like Alabama spots, blueback herring, Asian carp, CWD, or any other number of issues the state governments has to try to address because idiots made stupid choices.  Now fast forward to November or next April when you same people aren’t seeing deer or turkeys because you have 25 people hunting 250 acres , land covered in one big sheet of pine needles, or the WMA you hunted as a kid has more people in it than it used to, and we will get to hear how you want the same “evil” government agencies change the regulations.  Because of course if you aren’t see deer or turkeys, it is their fault.  They need to “fix it.” You like to let your dogs run
> all over creation chasing pigs and hunting them,  often on public land mine you that the “evil” government provides access to, so there is “no need to fix” that. Funny how your view of the government changes depending on what side of the argument you are on.   No one is going to poisonous everything with sodium nitrite.   Do a little research on it.  It
> isn’t that big of a deal, even if it
> does get approved.  Red stag all still all over New Zealand, and they’ve been using it for years.



Seems you have a basic misunderstanding of what our government is.  They do not “let” us use that land.  We as a people elected government officials that set aside that land for us all so that it wouldn’t and couldn’t be settled.  We own it. Not the government!


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## C.Killmaster (May 25, 2021)

Heath said:


> I believe the original post was about poisoning hogs here in the mountains.  That means public land.



The original post was just asking the status, he didn't say anything about the mountains.


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## specialk (May 25, 2021)

when does deer season start?


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## Heath (May 25, 2021)

C.Killmaster said:


> The original post was just asking the status, he didn't say anything about the mountains.



So, is he leaving the mountains now and worrying about other parts of the state or what?  Ya’ll are confusing.  Middle and South Georgia boys worried about mountain hogs and now Sautee is leaving the mountains and worrying about middle and South Georgia hogs.

Good grief,  I’ve got involved in a conversation that I didn’t belong in.  My apologies.  I could care less what you flat feets do south of these hills.  So long as you keep it there.


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## C.Killmaster (May 25, 2021)

Heath said:


> So, is he leaving the mountains now and worrying about other parts of the state or what?  Ya’ll are confusing.  Middle and South Georgia boys worried about mountain hogs and now Sautee is leaving the mountains and worrying about middle and South Georgia hogs.
> 
> Good grief,  I’ve got involved in a conversation that I didn’t belong in.  My apologies.  I could care less what you flat feets do south of these hills.  So long as you keep it there.



He was just asking a question that wasn't directed at any single part of the state or the country for that matter.  I have no idea if he's leaving the mountains, were you just drawing the conclusion that it was directed at the mountains because that's where he lives?


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## across the river (May 25, 2021)

Heath said:


> I believe the original post was about poisoning hogs here in the mountains.  That means public land.  I am no dumb redneck and I’ve never hauled a hog around and turned it loose.  My family has been eating them for 60 or 70 years that I know of and I also enjoy hunting them for fun more so than necessity like my grandfather and great grandfather had to.  You can relax,  my opinion is the minority and will eventually lose in the long run.
> Yes, people have ignorantly introduced species but our government has introduced just as many wildlife problems.  Seems like you have a lot of faith in the government, I do not.








Heath said:


> Seems you have a basic misunderstanding of what our government is.  They do not “let” us use that land.  We as a people elected government officials that set aside that land for us all so that it wouldn’t and couldn’t be settled.  We own it. Not the government!



In one post you say I have too much faith in the government, yet in the next post you tout government owned land.  Actually, if you read the constitution, the federal government isn't supposed to be in the "business" of owning land anyway, save a tract that protect some national treasure or area that needs protecting.  The founders didn't intend for the government to own thousands of acres in the GA mountains of forestland or a third to 80% of states out west, but we can save that conversation for a time it the optimal forum ever resurfaces.

"We" as you so eloquently put it, also included hikers, photographers, tree hugers, anti-hunters, the people with homes in the mountains, and any other number of people who may not want dogs or rednecks running all over "their" land 12 months of the year.  The import from New York or Vermont owns "that land" just as much as you or anyone else.  Many of those "landowners" don't want pigs digging up their garden and hostas either.

My point is, you want to have it both ways, but it doesn't work like that.   You won't to rely on government owned land to have a place to hunt and then get upset because they limit the amount of time you can hunt or mention "poisoning" pigs.  In one situation the government is great because it benefits you, but on the other hand you don't trust them to manage the wildlife on the very land they provide you the opportunity to hunt.   You don't see the irony in this?


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## Heath (May 25, 2021)

No sir, he doesn’t live here unless he’s changed his permanent residency.  From what I understand he has a place up here somewhere and he always talks about hunting here and given his disdain for hogs and feral cats I assumed he was referring to the use of poison here.  You know what they say about assuming!


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (May 25, 2021)

I was asking about the situation because we need to find a way to drastically control pig numbers but I wasnt referring to any region specifically.  

Im not in favor of any method that will end up with the bykill that this seems like it would likely cause. 

I do hunt statewide but spend most of my time in extreme NE GA. 

Again, I was just asking about the situation of this particular control method.  I wasnt trying to promote it.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (May 25, 2021)

Id love if hog doggers and trappers were the first line on the issue.


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## Heath (May 25, 2021)

across the river said:


> In one post you say I have too much faith in the government, yet in the next post you tout government owned land.  Actually, if you read the constitution, the federal government isn't supposed to be in the "business" of owning land anyway, save a tract that protect some national treasure or area that needs protecting.  The founders didn't intend for the government to own thousands of acres in the GA mountains of forestland or a third to 80% of states out west, but we can save that conversation for a time it the optimal forum ever resurfaces.
> 
> "We" as you so eloquently put it, also included hikers, photographers, tree hugers, anti-hunters, the people with homes in the mountains, and any other number of people who may not want dogs or rednecks running all over "their" land 12 months of the year.  The import from New York or Vermont owns "that land" just as much as you or anyone else.  Many of those "landowners" don't want pigs digging up their garden and hostas either.
> 
> My point is, you want to have it both ways, but it doesn't work like that.   You won't to rely on government owned land to have a place to hunt and then get upset because they limit the amount of time you can hunt or mention "poisoning" pigs.  In one situation the government is great because it benefits you, but on the other hand you don't trust them to manage the wildlife on the very land they provide you the opportunity to hunt.   You don't see the irony in this?



The Government did what It was designed to do and protected that land. Thats where it should end other than the Wildlife Agencies that “we” hunters founded and put into existence.  It wasn’t the other groups you mentioned. The only irony is the same group and type of people who lobbied and got laws changed to restrict our ability to control hogs now want to control hogs and think their ways are better than us poor dumb rednecks.  If you like Australia’s model of government,  take a hike!  You’ll still be fighting these pesky hogs in many regions there as well.  But, at least you wont be in my backyard peeing on my head and trying to convince me it’s raining.


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## across the river (May 25, 2021)

Heath said:


> The Government did what It was designed to do and protected that land. Thats where it should end other than the Wildlife Agencies that “we” hunters founded and put into existence.  It wasn’t the other groups you mentioned. The only irony is the same group and type of people who lobbied and got laws changed to restrict our ability to control hogs now want to control hogs and think their ways are better than us poor dumb rednecks.  If you like Australia’s model of government,  take a hike!  You’ll still be fighting these pesky hogs in many regions there as well.  But, at least you wont be in my backyard peeing on my head and trying to convince me it’s raining.



So the government was designed to protect national forest land in the mountains for dumb rednecks (your words not mine) to hunt invasive feral pigs on.  Gotcha.  I learn something everyday on this forum.


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## Heath (May 26, 2021)

No sir, those are the words you’ve used over and over to describe those you don’t agree with.  Or at least anyone who runs dogs or hunts hogs.  You have a real narcissistic attitude just like the group that came before you and stopped us from controlling hogs.  You reap what you sow!

I’m on my way back from Arkansas picking up a baler,  I hope my fields are still there when I get home and those villains haven’t destroyed them.  We don’t have a hog problem here,  we have a people wanting to control other people’s lives problem.  Where do you live? I’ll gladly come get your hogs out of your fields or yard for you.  I don’t have to use a dog, I’ll do it any way you wish.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (May 30, 2021)

Im on a lease in middle ga. Its about 250 acres. We have killed a couple short of 100 pigs off it this year and they just keep coming. The methods that help in one area arent as effective in others, especially when you have small parcel landowners.


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## Sautee Ridgerunner (May 31, 2021)

We are right on 75 too so nobody who cared about their dogs would ever turn em loose.


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## JustUs4All (May 31, 2021)

This one has bout run it's course.


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