# no penatration



## bronco611 (Sep 14, 2015)

Saturday after the rain left my nephew and I hit the woods. At 7 pm I look to my left and a doe is there at 15 yards eating. After 20 minutes she steps out from behind the limb that has been blocking my shot. She is slightly facing two me and I aim slightly at her shoulder so that I will get a double lung shot because I am sitting in a pop up. I let the arrow fly and it perfectly centers up on the ball in her shoulder and only goes in 1 inch!!!! I watch her run off with the entire arrow sticking out. I find blood and we trail her for 2 hours until the blood stops. I found the arrow Sunday at noon and it looked unhurt except the shaft was broken in front of the fetching where it hit a tree to dislodge the tip from the bone. I guess it was just not my day and she will live to see another day.  I was totally shocked to see the arrow stop when it hit her, I thought I was seeing things. I guess you learn something new every time you go into the woods, but man what a tough lesson. At least my nephew shot a nice doe Sunday morning so some good came from our hunt, my nephew looks at me with a funny grin while we are skinning his deer and says I guess I need to show you how it is done and we both had a good laugh out of it.


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## whitetailfreak (Sep 14, 2015)

Somebody is gonna ask. What broadhead?


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## bronco611 (Sep 14, 2015)

2 blade rage 100 gr with a diamond bow shooting 310 fps.


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## tradhunter98 (Sep 14, 2015)

Imo the rage is the problem.


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## spydermon (Sep 14, 2015)

Can't shoot them in the ball of the shoulder and expect much penetration.   You are shooting a bow. .not a rifle.  Wait until you have a better angle and shot them broadside or quartering away.  Quartering forward shots are tricky.  You have to be very precise on aiming and executing the shot.  You will have to shoot inside the shoulder. .between them and into the chest cavity


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## bronco611 (Sep 14, 2015)

no wasn't the tip it was the bone( shoulder ball) that stopped the arrow. it was as if it hit a brick wall, i don't believe any other tip would have made any difference.


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## bronco611 (Sep 14, 2015)

spydermon, I know what you are saying, I felt to comfortable with the 15 yard shot and now realize i should have given her a few more seconds to give me a little bit more of a side shot or a more frontal shot instead of what I took.


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## Piggy06 (Sep 14, 2015)

Shot Rage for several years. Went back to fixed blade Muzzy's. Solved the problem. Put it on them, they don't go far!


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## preston h (Sep 14, 2015)

I shot one Sunday morning that was quartering away hit the off side shoulder with a 2 blade rage no blood we looked for 4 hours didn't find it. shot it with a bowtech experience @ 70lb and 23 yards. For a expandable head I will only shoot grim reaper for now own there are 5 rages at the dump.I have a set of drt on there way to try.


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## hrstille (Sep 15, 2015)

How heavy of an arrow do you shoot? Light arrows fly fast but heavier arrows penetrate.


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## antharper (Sep 15, 2015)

I love rages !


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## Vance1012 (Sep 15, 2015)

hrstille said:


> How heavy of an arrow do you shoot? Light arrows fly fast but heavier arrows penetrate.



This, I had the same thing happen to me last year except my arrow just glanced off. I was shooting kill zones and Easton bloodline arrows which were 8.7 gpi. After some research and discussions on here I went and got Carbon express pile drivers(11.3 gpi) and switched to 125 grain ramcats. Now I haven't got to test it yet but I have full confidence that it will fix the problem.


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## goshenmountainman (Sep 15, 2015)

Hit one in the shoulder bone and it wont matter what broad head your shooting. I shot one in the shoulder ball joint with the famed muzzy still didn't get it. That joint is a lot harder than people give credit for.


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## deerslayer0369 (Sep 15, 2015)

Quartering to is a no go for me. I don't care what head or how much KE your bow has you will get mediocre  penetration if any at all. I've shot Rages for several years now and have only lost two and both of those were due to shooter error, every single rage that I successfully put in the cage has put them down in less than 50-60yds with complete pass through out to 45yds(my farthest attempt).


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## Hunter454 (Sep 15, 2015)

I had the same thing happen to me 2 years ago it was with a rage but I don't know if any other head would have helped, I was shooting a light arrow I've upped my weight now


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## Kris87 (Sep 15, 2015)

Couple of things....you hit the scapula.  I don't care what anyone here is shooting, you're not going to shoot through it.  I have only hit one deer in the scapula and I watched the arrow bounce backwards out of the deer it hit so hard.  

If you hit a deer in the leg bone below the scapula, you can probably break it with the right setup.  Everyone should take a good look at deer anatomy images, and become familiar with where the scapula is located.  Its high in the shoulder.


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## BROWNING7WSM (Sep 15, 2015)

tradhunter98 said:


> Imo the rage is the problem.



yep.. I agree with that


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## Kris87 (Sep 15, 2015)

BROWNING7WSM said:


> yep.. I agree with that



I disagree.


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## alligood729 (Sep 15, 2015)

I disagree as well. A rage is a fine broadhead. POI is extremely important, with any head.


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## robert carter (Sep 15, 2015)

A heavier arrow could help on those not so perfect shots. I shot through a deer scapula with a longbow shooting in the 170 fps range with a 2 blade head and 640 grain arrow. I recovered the deer as well.
   For the life of me I don`t get the "speed" thing for hunting. For competition sure but for hunting with all the affordable range finders available today? I don`t get it. I have hunted with a compound a few years and shot 3-d I understand some speed is good. If I shot a compound now it would shoot a minimum of 8 grains per pound and penetration with near any broadhead would not be a problem. I would and will not shoot a deer quartering too and would probably shoot Tim Knights Bi-polar. I have killed quite a few deer with compounds and stickbows and have never lost a deer because of the broadhead. I have lost deer because I made a poor shot. I killed a small 8 pt yesterday at 11 yards and 20 feet up a tree. shot it with a longbow pulling 45 lbs at 27" and a 525 grain arrow with a Grizzly two blade head. Passed through and stuck in the dirt. this particular bow and arrow combination shoots a scorching 164 fps.  Thats right...164.RC


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## pasinthrough (Sep 15, 2015)

Kris87 said:


> ... Everyone should take a good look at deer anatomy images, and become familiar with where the scapula is located.  Its high in the shoulder.




^^^ This.  Better yet, spend some time with your hands on a real dead deer and see for yourself what makes them tick.  When you talk archery, you are talking angles of shots.  Some angles and some shots just work against you.  Hit the scapula at a right angle and you stand a much better chance of going through.  Hit it at an angle of 35 degrees or shallower and you may never even make it past the ribs and into the chest which will in 99% of the cases result in a lost deer.

I've shot over 60 deer with the Rage.  The heads is not the problem, the shot location, what you are trying to shoot through and the shot angle is what hurts your chances.


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## T.P. (Sep 15, 2015)

robert carter said:


> A heavier arrow could help on those not so perfect shots. I shot through a deer scapula with a longbow shooting in the 170 fps range with a 2 blade head and 640 grain arrow. I recovered the deer as well.
> For the life of me I don`t get the "speed" thing for hunting. For competition sure but for hunting with all the affordable range finders available today? I don`t get it. I have hunted with a compound a few years and shot 3-d I understand some speed is good. If I shot a compound now it would shoot a minimum of 8 grains per pound and penetration with near any broadhead would not be a problem. I would and will not shoot a deer quartering too and would probably shoot Tim Knights Bi-polar. I have killed quite a few deer with compounds and stickbows and have never lost a deer because of the broadhead. I have lost deer because I made a poor shot. I killed a small 8 pt yesterday at 11 yards and 20 feet up a tree. shot it with a longbow pulling 45 lbs at 27" and a 525 grain arrow with a Grizzly two blade head. Passed through and stuck in the dirt. this particular bow and arrow combination shoots a scorching 164 fps.  Thats right...164.RC



Right on.


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## T.P. (Sep 15, 2015)

I don't always make perfect shots, so I would not use a broadhead that only worked on perfect shots.


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## deerslayer0369 (Sep 15, 2015)

T.P. said:


> I don't always make perfect shots, so I would not use a broadhead that only worked on perfect shots.



So do you consider a quartering to a "perfect shot"? It's not the head...it's the archer. If rage is junk then why have so many companies adopted the rear deployment design. Quit blaming the head and just admit when you've made a not so great shot...we all do it! Sometimes you just gotta tip the ole cap the whitetail for there drive to survive. Okay, I'm off my soap box. Have nice day. And yes I do shoot rage with very good success along with other heads in the past so I'm not uneducated in this category.


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## T.P. (Sep 15, 2015)

T.P. said:


> I don't always make perfect shots, .





deerslayer0369 said:


> Quit blaming the head and just admit when you've made a not so great shot....




I did admit I don't always make perfect shots. Look up.^^^


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## Bo D (Sep 15, 2015)

Rages are CRAP folks l know so many outfitters that wont allow them on their properties just for these reasons and he was shooting a Ga doe imagine in the midwest or out west on Elk or Canada deer that has the thickest hides...Rages are great if you hit a perfectly broadside shot and we all know as bowhunters that eventually we will have a marginal shot because its bowhunting it will happen.
 A guide out west once told me mechanicals are for hunters who are lazy and cheap because its easier and cheaper to shoot field points and a couple weeks before opener put in a mechanicals and think they are set. 
 I shoot broadheads all year round havent bought a field point in over 10yrs a cut on contact BH would of had a diffrent outcome on a shot like that. Its simple math.
Cmon fanboys lm ready lol
 Good Luck next time


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## Wack&Stackn08 (Sep 15, 2015)

Once again the equipment takes the blame for the hunter's mistake...

I guess I am the only bowhunter that hasn't had a problem with Rage. I did lose my biggest buck to date last year, I did shoot it with a rage, but  *I* made a bad shot.


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## Kris87 (Sep 15, 2015)

I shoot a variety of broadheads.  Some fixed, some true mechanical, and some hybrid(my favorite).  That said, if I make a less than perfect shot, give me the head that has the biggest cut available.  It increases my odds of finding the deer.  Just my opinion based on a whole bunch of dead critters.  YMMV.


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## deerslayer0369 (Sep 15, 2015)

So if this was a gun and same scenario it would be the guns fault and not the hunters bone head decision bc even the best bullets available can fail. Cmon man get the out of here with that "guys who shoot mechanicals are just to lazy to tune there bows" junk. I shoot year around and my bow is tuned with the best of them. I just prefer a mech over coc does that make me lazy. The reason you see so many "horror" stories about rages is because there is so many more out there in the field...not everyone takes the time to do the game justice which is the reason for all the stories. I'm not gonna knock anything anybody decides to tote into the field, to each his own and if they're confident in it...knock yourself out.


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## bukhuntr (Sep 15, 2015)

Every deer I have shot with the Hypodermic was dead within 50 yards.  That includes a Kansas buck.   I did switch to a heavier arrow, but I'll stick with the Rage.   You have to have confidence in whatever you are shooting and you have to put it in the right spot.  I have more confidence I can put a mechanical where it needs to be than a fixed blade.  That's just me though.  I shoot field points all the time when practicing. My Hypos hit the same.  Having perfect form is much easier shooting from level ground than it is in a hunting situation.  I need as much help as I can get.


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## BROWNING7WSM (Sep 15, 2015)

Bo D said:


> Rages are CRAP folks l know so many outfitters that wont allow them on their properties just for these reasons and he was shooting a Ga doe imagine in the midwest or out west on Elk or Canada deer that has the thickest hides...Rages are great if you hit a perfectly broadside shot and we all know as bowhunters that eventually we will have a marginal shot because its bowhunting it will happen.
> A guide out west once told me mechanicals are for hunters who are lazy and cheap because its easier and cheaper to shoot field points and a couple weeks before opener put in a mechanicals and think they are set.
> I shoot broadheads all year round havent bought a field point in over 10yrs a cut on contact BH would of had a diffrent outcome on a shot like that. Its simple math.
> Cmon fanboys lm ready lol
> Good Luck next time





I like it


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## chenryiv (Sep 15, 2015)

robert carter said:


> A heavier arrow could help on those not so perfect shots. I shot through a deer scapula with a longbow shooting in the 170 fps range with a 2 blade head and 640 grain arrow. I recovered the deer as well.
> For the life of me I don`t get the "speed" thing for hunting. For competition sure but for hunting with all the affordable range finders available today? I don`t get it. I have hunted with a compound a few years and shot 3-d I understand some speed is good. If I shot a compound now it would shoot a minimum of 8 grains per pound and penetration with near any broadhead would not be a problem. I would and will not shoot a deer quartering too and would probably shoot Tim Knights Bi-polar. I have killed quite a few deer with compounds and stickbows and have never lost a deer because of the broadhead. I have lost deer because I made a poor shot. I killed a small 8 pt yesterday at 11 yards and 20 feet up a tree. shot it with a longbow pulling 45 lbs at 27" and a 525 grain arrow with a Grizzly two blade head. Passed through and stuck in the dirt. this particular bow and arrow combination shoots a scorching 164 fps.  Thats right...164.RC



I could agree with RC any more. I shot a buck last night through the  scapula with a 55 pound longbow.  My arrow weighed approx 550gr and got 9 inches of penetration. Single bevel Grizzly Broadhead did the trick.


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## The Arrow Guru (Sep 15, 2015)

If your arrow is super light, it does not matter what head you use.

If your arrow is not flying perfect, it does not matter what head you use.

You WILL have penetration problems at some point.

If your arrow is flying perfectly out of a tuned bow, it really doesn't matter what head you use.

If your arrow is heavy with a high FOC, it really doesn't matter what head you use.

Heavy arrow + high FOC X prefect arrow flight = penetration.

I have shot through many scapulas on deer quartering to me. I got complete to nearly complete penetration. However I have hit one in the ball socket and got nearly zero penetration and no deer died.


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## BROWNING7WSM (Sep 15, 2015)

The Arrow Guru said:


> I have shot through many scapulas on deer quartering to me. I got complete to nearly complete penetration..




Same here.. 

Glad to see someone speak about the scapulas and not blow smoke.


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## The Arrow Guru (Sep 15, 2015)

I think it is funny that a Rage hater will use any opportunity he can to trash Rage broad heads. I personally have killed over 70 animals with a Rage including non-broad side, extreme angles, scapula hits and the whole thing. It has become very clear to me that your bow and arrow wet are so much more important than what broad head you are using. 

I use a hybrid now, but take my advise, build an arrow to penetrate, and tune your bow to penetrate, then put a broad head on it.


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## bronco611 (Sep 15, 2015)

The problem was that I shot to high an inch lower and she would have been toast. Not the tip at fault, my fault.


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## The Arrow Guru (Sep 15, 2015)

bronco611 said:


> The problem was that I shot to high an inch lower and she would have been toast. Not the tip at fault, my fault.



We can practice and work all we want, as bowhunters, sometimes bad things happen. It's a good thing to understand where WE went wrong and move on. Shake it off and get back after them.


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## preston h (Sep 15, 2015)

I have been bow hunting for 13 years now and have only lost one deer, I know it may happen again but the deer I lost was with a rage. there are a few of my friends that shoot them and kill deer but the blades are broke 60% of the time after recovering the arrow. So after I lost my deer Sunday I went and bought a pack of slick trick mags and now with miner sight adjustment they fly true at 40 yards, I also got a pack of the drt's that i just got today and they fly great also to 40. my biggest issue is u have to feel confident in what you are using to make a good shot.I could have shot the rest of the rages that i had and killed every deer that I shot but I would second guess before i shot.


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## BigCats (Sep 16, 2015)

A buddy of mine set on the ground with a monster mr6 400 grain arrow grizz trick and shot thru both shoulders so yes it can happen, now with a mechanical it's a different  story


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## deerslayer0369 (Sep 16, 2015)

So explain to me why or how a fixed will out penetrate a mech? Both require KE to enter and have KE to exit. Most ppl shoot either a 3 or 4 blade fixed vs a 2 or 3 blade mech...more surface area requires more KE. Is it the "big" cutting diameters of mech heads or the extra blade or 2 on a fixed head that require more energy? I believe ppl look much deeper at the head then there arrow. I believe that if we ,the archer, would do our homework and find the right arrow for our equipment there would be a lot less deer wounded or lost. There is a fine line when deciding arrow weight bc speed is the determining factor. Take my set up for example, I shoot a 390grain arrow at 65#'s at 285fps...do the math that's roughly 68#'s of KE but that same DW with a 340grain arrow at 290fps and that's a little over 60#'s of KE. If I go much heavier of an arrow I lose to much speed therefore I LOSE KE. So to blame the head is the lazy way out. Sure there are some heads that are just pure junk but that's usually the cheapos...the price will tell the story on what the company thinks of there product. So I believe the real reason ppl choose fixed over mech is the lack of moving parts therefore one less thing that can fail not that a fixed will out penetrate a mech head.


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## GTHunter007 (Sep 16, 2015)

Kris87 said:


> Couple of things....you hit the scapula.  I don't care what anyone here is shooting, you're not going to shoot through it.  I have only hit one deer in the scapula and I watched the arrow bounce backwards out of the deer it hit so hard.
> 
> If you hit a deer in the leg bone below the scapula, you can probably break it with the right setup.  Everyone should take a good look at deer anatomy images, and become familiar with where the scapula is located.  Its high in the shoulder.



And where the vitals are located.  Inside 25 yards not perfectly broadside...I aim for the heart.  No matter the entry point avoiding that scapula, you can reach the heart.  Not every angle lets you get double lung.  Not always necessary IMO though.  

In the case mentioned above, I only believe a perfect Extreme FOC and 2 blade fixed head with heavy arrows would have a chance busting through the scapula...most are not prepared for that.  This was not the broadhead's fault.  Poor shot placement was.


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## Mudfeather (Sep 16, 2015)

deerslayer0369 said:


> So explain to me why or how a fixed will out penetrate a mech? Both require KE to enter and have KE to exit. Most ppl shoot either a 3 or 4 blade fixed vs a 2 or 3 blade mech...more surface area requires more KE. Is it the "big" cutting diameters of mech heads or the extra blade or 2 on a fixed head that require more energy? I believe ppl look much deeper at the head then there arrow. I believe that if we ,the archer, would do our homework and find the right arrow for our equipment there would be a lot less deer wounded or lost. There is a fine line when deciding arrow weight bc speed is the determining factor. Take my set up for example, I shoot a 390grain arrow at 65#'s at 285fps...do the math that's roughly 68#'s of KE but that same DW with a 340grain arrow at 290fps and that's a little over 60#'s of KE. If I go much heavier of an arrow I lose to much speed therefore I LOSE KE. So to blame the head is the lazy way out. Sure there are some heads that are just pure junk but that's usually the cheapos...the price will tell the story on what the company thinks of there product. So I believe the real reason ppl choose fixed over mech is the lack of moving parts therefore one less thing that can fail not that a fixed will out penetrate a mech head.



UGGGG.....KE has almost nothing to do with an arrow killing anything......read some of Dr Ashbys studies....You and everyone else would be much better off adding weight to the front of the arrow..all weight added is not equal......adding weight to the rear of an arrow can actually hurt penetration...


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## blazer21 (Sep 16, 2015)

preston h said:


> I shot one Sunday morning that was quartering away hit the off side shoulder with a 2 blade rage no blood we looked for 4 hours didn't find it. shot it with a bowtech experience @ 70lb and 23 yards. For a expandable head I will only shoot grim reaper for now own there are 5 rages at the dump.I have a set of drt on there way to try.



Those DRT's are great!! Try the single bevel!! I shot those and the Strickland helix last season and loved them both!!


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## mattech (Sep 16, 2015)

bronco611 said:


> The problem was that I shot to high an inch lower and she would have been toast. Not the tip at fault, my fault.



Facts have no business in a thread about bashing equipment.


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## Flaustin1 (Sep 16, 2015)

A sharp, cut on contact, single bevel 2 blade such as an Ashby or the like would have broken the shoulder.  Ive seen it done at 165FPS.

Look on youtube, you can find multiple videos of people shooting through cape buffalo shoulders with slow, heavy, long, and sharp single bevel broadheads.

I will say that the rage is a good head for a fast heavy arrow and good shot placement but the near 90 degree cutting angle of the blades aren't good for penetrating bone.


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## The Arrow Guru (Sep 16, 2015)

Mudfeather said:


> UGGGG.....KE has almost nothing to do with an arrow killing anything......read some of Dr Ashbys studies....You and everyone else would be much better off adding weight to the front of the arrow..all weight added is not equal......adding weight to the rear of an arrow can actually hurt penetration...



It's like I was typing it! We have a winner. I have been preaching this a lot lately.


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## Ihunt (Sep 17, 2015)

There is a video showing a guy pushing elk hides down onto the top of various broadheads. He has a scale on the bottom of the arrow showing how much weight is takes to get the arrow through the hide. The mechanicals are the worst, next is chisel tips, then true COC heads. The Zwickey only needed about 3 lbs. to go through.


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## TwoSeventy (Sep 17, 2015)

Bo D said:


> Rages are CRAP folks l know so many outfitters that wont allow them on their properties just for these reasons and he was shooting a Ga doe imagine in the midwest or out west on Elk or Canada deer that has the thickest hides...Rages are great if you hit a perfectly broadside shot and we all know as bowhunters that eventually we will have a marginal shot because its bowhunting it will happen.
> A guide out west once told me mechanicals are for hunters who are lazy and cheap because its easier and cheaper to shoot field points and a couple weeks before opener put in a mechanicals and think they are set.
> I shoot broadheads all year round havent bought a field point in over 10yrs a cut on contact BH would of had a diffrent outcome on a shot like that. Its simple math.
> Cmon fanboys lm ready lol
> Good Luck next time



Just call me one of those lazy Mechanical guys. I've shot fixed blades for 25 years and if you don't make a good shot it don't matter what's on the end of your arrow.

C'mon man quit blaming the equipment.


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## Flaustin1 (Sep 17, 2015)

Nope, youre half wrong.  An ashby, zwicky , grizzly etc broadhead would have penetrated that shoulder and the deer would be dead.


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## Kris87 (Sep 17, 2015)

Oh geez....


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## BlackEagle (Sep 17, 2015)

Kris87 said:


> Oh geez....


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## T.P. (Sep 17, 2015)

How's about when someone kills a deer, debone it and shoot the scapula and report back with pics ? As many deer is being killed it make an interesting thread.


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## Flaustin1 (Sep 17, 2015)

Ive done it already.  Wish I still had the picks.  I will do it again this year.  Shooting about 160 fps with about a 600 gr. arrow.  I guarantee it will penetrate it from 20ish yards.


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## hrstille (Sep 17, 2015)

Make a good shot next time and you won't have to complain about your equipment! A well placed field point will kill a deer.


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## bronco611 (Sep 17, 2015)

Boy, I was just commenting on the mistake I made opening day on what should have been a dead deer. But due to my lack of judgement and arrow placement she will more than likely live. I was not trying to start an equipment bashing thread, just trying to give a heads up so someone else does not make the same  mistake I did and loose a deer. I am 55 years old and have been bow hunting since I was 14. I have shot fixed blades, 2 blade trads mechanicals, cut on contact etc etc and all have preformed very well for me when put in the proper place. I have shot long bows, recurves and compounds and crossbows. I know all about speed, weight, different equipment etc. We all learn from each others mistakes if we are smart so that we can avoid making the same one ourselves. Let us all quit trying to prove that one is better than the other and hit the woods this weekend and enjoy the thrill of the hunt. I hope that my original post will help another hunter keep from making the same mistake I made and I am not the run of the mill rookie with a bow and no experience. happy hunting and keep posting the success stories and pictures for all to enjoy. And by the way if any of you out there have any rages that you are going to trash I will be glad to take them off your hands. Happy hunting and may the hunting spirits smile on you this weekend.


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## hrstille (Sep 17, 2015)

I was referring to all the guys on here blaming broadheads. No you specifically.


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## BlackEagle (Sep 17, 2015)

Sadly enough, I'm willing to bet most people still don't know where a shoulder bone actually lays in an adult deer.


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## The Arrow Guru (Sep 17, 2015)

Alright, I went a pulled some old pics. 1st, I hunt a strip between my subdivision and another one. Because of the limited space I have legal permission to hunt, how thick it is and the deer travel, I often have to shoot deer quartering to me and generally close. 2nd I often have to shoot pretty much straight down. 3rd I will not field any questions about shot selection or defend my "ethics". My results speak for themselves. 

Build an arrow and tune your bow for penetration and you will have better results. I have gotten to the point where I don't even shoot my bow through a chronograph 

Deer #1, through the scapula, broken shoulder, complete penetration, short blood trail. Take a look at the entrance and how it relates to the exit. That will give you the angle.

So here are some pics


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## The Arrow Guru (Sep 17, 2015)

Same CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored basically, BIG doe.


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## The Arrow Guru (Sep 17, 2015)

Pic one, shoulder shot doe. 

Pic two, doe I shot walking straight to me. 15 yards shot, she was coming up a terrace and I was shooting down at her brisket. Full penetration, you could barely see the lighted nock in the entrance wound. She made it about 30 yards.


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## The Arrow Guru (Sep 17, 2015)

Pic 1 and 2, doe I shot really close to the tree, in through the scapula and broke opposite shoulder.

Pic 3 and 4, shot straight down, Rage entered perfectly perpendicular to the spine cutting the spine in half. 0 yard recover and the lungs literally came out in 4 pieces and one side of the ribs were split. Total penetration


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## The Arrow Guru (Sep 17, 2015)

A rage will penetrate bone and other obstacles as long as the arrow is built to penetrate and the bow is tuned and arrow flight is perfect, not good enough, not good, but perfect.


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## BlackEagle (Sep 17, 2015)

I'd be ever so surprised to see a rage crash through two shoulders in the thick part of the bone. I just don't see it happening, I don't care what weight arrow you're shooting. You may shoot through the thin part of the blade or break the lower bone, but that's about it. 

Guru your shots are all on the money. But that first pic appears to be quite a ways from the heart of the shoulder bone.


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## Mudfeather (Sep 17, 2015)

Another point to bring out about perfect arrow flight is you will be amazed at what simply adding another blazer vane will do and one can not shoot well enough to notice a difference at normal hunting ranges.....it stabilizes all broad heads better regardless of the type or style and I just can't find a negative that offsets the benefits I see....


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## The Arrow Guru (Sep 17, 2015)

BlackEagle said:


> I'd be ever so surprised to see a rage crash through two shoulders in the thick part of the bone. I just don't see it happening, I don't care what weight arrow you're shooting. You may shoot through the thin part of the blade or break the lower bone, but that's about it.
> 
> Guru your shots are all on the money. But that first pic appears to be quite a ways from the heart of the shoulder bone.



I guess the thing I forgot to type was that the shot placement needs to be correct. Yeah, there are few broadheads that are aluminum and not single bevel that can survive and socket. Silver Flames, Solid Broadheads, and WASP makes a few solid cut on contact heads that when matched with a heavy arrow would in fact destroy that socket. However does that mean that it would sever vital organs and arteries? Maybe on in that area of the animal. As you can tell I take this all pretty seriously. I believe in arrow weight, FOC, perfect arrow flight, practice and putting the arrow where it will do it's job. Very few take all these aspects into consideration and that is a shame


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## hoytslanger87 (Sep 17, 2015)

These threads kill me " I shot a deer dead in the should, and that crappy broadhead didn't kill her".


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## Kris87 (Sep 18, 2015)

The front of the scapula is far from where most of those shots entered.  I refer to that part as shoulder too, but its all meat.  I've shot plenty through there.  You might be able to bust the back of the scapula, where its very thing, but if you shoot that thing towards the front, where it thickens and has a raised ridge, running down to the ball joint, you're not going to shoot through it.  Again, that part is pretty far forward.  

I've hit one deer in the very front.  My arrow weighed 470gr and was going 285fps.  There's not one person on here that will convince me that if I slowed my arrow 100fps, and added 100gr to the arrow, it would have been different outcome.  It wouldn't.


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## j53 (Sep 18, 2015)

Ive hit several just wrong in the shoulder with little to no penetration, it happens along and along but that wasnt my intention lol... Ive also shot through both shoulders with many types of heads, but it wasnt in that spot we all try to avoid, the traditional boys are talking about the 650 grain test Ashby done.. that seems to be the magic number... The arrow RC used was close to that so I wouldnt doubt what he said. I havent read the research but a close friend has been playing with arrow weight because of it at the shop. He was saying when it got to 650ish that arrow become bone crushing, testing on cape buffalo bones and such, might be whats up. However im not gonna shoot that heavy even if it would penetrate a block wall... And after increasing arrow weight to the point that he needed a 10 yard pin instead of one out to 20, he lightened up as well. According to his research there is truth to this Kris but I'll never shoot that weight regardless


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## dawg2 (Sep 18, 2015)

goshenmountainman said:


> Hit one in the shoulder bone and it wont matter what broad head your shooting. I shot one in the shoulder ball joint with the famed muzzy still didn't get it. That joint is a lot harder than people give credit for.


This


hrstille said:


> How heavy of an arrow do you shoot? Light arrows fly fast but heavier arrows penetrate.



This


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## Clint Shook (Sep 18, 2015)

good reference


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## RedHeader (Sep 18, 2015)

Just to echo everyone talking the importance of shot placement.  Someone showed me this (could have been on this forum) and I find it to be very helpful.  Its a shot placement game that goes through different shots you may see while hunting. Its pretty tough, you have to pick the exact location for a kill shot. I try to go through it a few times every other day.


http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/articles/deer/deergeometry/

(Link doesn't work on a iPhone)

Some of the shots shouldn't be taken but it makes you think about the vital locations based off the deer's position and the angles.


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## BlackEagle (Sep 18, 2015)

Clint Shook said:


> good reference



Yep. That's a good display. Thanks for posting!


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## hunter84 (Sep 18, 2015)

This subject comes up every year and it's always the broadheads fault no one likes to admitte they have made a mistake but as hunters we owe it to the animals we hunt to dispose of them as quickly as possible and that means taking the right shot and if that means letting them pass then that's what should be done we need to make sure our ego does not trump out ability I have only taken a hand full of game with my bow its not from not seeing anything its from not taking the shot if I'm not 100% sure I can do it and I'm not talking about sometimes you just make a bad shot because it happens to all of us I'm saying don't try to make shots with high difficulty that's just my 2 cents worth


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## tradhunter98 (Sep 18, 2015)

Kris87 said:


> The front of the scapula is far from where most of those shots entered.  I refer to that part as shoulder too, but its all meat.  I've shot plenty through there.  You might be able to bust the back of the scapula, where its very thing, but if you shoot that thing towards the front, where it thickens and has a raised ridge, running down to the ball joint, you're not going to shoot through it.  Again, that part is pretty far forward.
> 
> I've hit one deer in the very front.  My arrow weighed 470gr and was going 285fps.  There's not one person on here that will convince me that if I slowed my arrow 100fps, and added 100gr to the arrow, it would have been different outcome.  It wouldn't.



http://www.tradbow.com/public/ashby-library.cfm Not sure if this link will work but read Dr. Ed Ashby Broad head study's from 2004. These are true study's, granted most study's are on game bigger than deer but why not shoot the best.


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## The Arrow Guru (Sep 18, 2015)

According to Dr. Ashby's research you see marked improvement in penetration, especially through dense bone and tissue at the 750 grain mark. His research also shows that 22% is the magic number in the FOC chart. You add to that a single bevel, cut on contact head with a tanto style point and make sure the blade angle is swept back and you can split shoulder sockets, front of the scapula and straight leg bones with relative ease.



Another good one


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## Flaustin1 (Sep 19, 2015)

You are correct sir.  When I first started hunting with read equipment, I watched and read everything I could find by Dr. Ashby.  He breaks bones in his studies that are 10x stouter than the strongest part of a whitetails leg.  It can be done.


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## reylamb (Sep 19, 2015)

Someone should tell the 42 deer in the last 7 years that I have killed that Rage heads are junk.

Someone should also tell me I am lazy and don't know how to tune, I need a good laugh today......oh wait, I see that has already happened....

Know your target, know your equipment, and know your limitations.


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## BowanaLee (Sep 19, 2015)

Yeah, Id stay away from those frontal shoulder shots. My Obsession bow is only set at 47 lbs. It still sunk a BiPolar tipped arrow to the fletching on a broad side shot. It was a 50 yd tracking job that Stevie Wonder could've followed.


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## robinsonfam1 (Sep 19, 2015)

i havent read through all 4-5 pages here but ill throw in my 2 pennies...

I shoot a pse brute with a 350G total arrow weight at 70#. yes the minimum arrow weight allowed. i use grim reaper 100G heads.
I have rushed a couple shots and have blasted through the shoulder blade on one side, shatter the leg bone on exit side and arrow stuck in dirt full pass through.
my wife shoots 50# @26" and has had same bounce off as described previously. I have been working with her to make sure she knows exactly where to properly place the arrow every time. i believe this is the only way to handle this situation.
I have also had a steep quartering toward shot; placed arrow immediately behind the shoulder blade and exited in front of rear quarter. Deer made it 30 yards. the diaphragm muscle was totally severed making it impossible to breath and i also caught one lung.

Im not saying what i have done is good or right but lucky yes compared to the others opinions here. Proper shot placement is paramount for all hunters. gun or bow...


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