# My pattern today 626 in 20" circle



## erniesp (Feb 15, 2015)

Hand loaded TSS #9's shot at 40 yards. Single shot 12 ga with a Indian Creek choke. 334 pellets in 10" circle. Thanks to Hawglips for the help.


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 15, 2015)

Very nice pattern.  What load?


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## thc_clubPres (Feb 15, 2015)

wow!

what make of gun?


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## erniesp (Feb 15, 2015)

That's 2oz load in a wal mart Spartan worked on by Gun Docc


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## SGaither (Feb 15, 2015)

That's impressive! Over half the load in that 10" circle at 40 yds. Very even too, not a blown pattern with those small pellets. Better aim small when the birds are close. Turkeys beware!


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## labsnducks (Feb 15, 2015)

Looks good outside the 10 as well


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## mauser64 (Feb 15, 2015)

No escaping that shot!


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## Killdee (Feb 15, 2015)

At 30* too, should get even better!!!!


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## hawglips (Feb 16, 2015)

labsnducks said:


> Looks good outside the 10 as well



One thing about it is that he has more pellets outside the 10" than any other load out there will have, even though he has a dense 10" core.  So, he actually has more wiggle room than the vast majority.

Ernie, did you count the 20"?


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## sman (Feb 16, 2015)

Dead bird.


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## huntindawg (Feb 16, 2015)

Hot diggity, 2 oz from a single shot...how heavy is the gun?  Your shoulder ok today?


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## erniesp (Feb 16, 2015)

*Full Pattern sheet*

There are 292 out in the 20 ring. Total of 626 inside 20"


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 16, 2015)

erniesp said:


> There are 292 out in the 20 ring. Total of 626 inside 20"



I'd stop there.


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## hawglips (Feb 16, 2015)

erniesp said:


> There are 292 out in the 20 ring. Total of 626 inside 20"



That's what I'm talking about.  You have more pellets outside that hot 10" core than a lot of 12 ga hunters have in the entire shell.


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## Timber1 (Feb 16, 2015)

Now if turkey hunting was just a matter of how many holes you can put in a little circle.


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## Wayne D Davis (Feb 16, 2015)

That turkeys goose is cooked !!!   I may have to look into reloading


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## Klondike (Feb 16, 2015)

*Wow*

I thought I was in the soup with 242 in a 20" circle with longbeard #5's.

Guess I need to reset expectations.


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## Nannyman (Feb 16, 2015)

Timber1 said:


> Now if turkey hunting was just a matter of how many holes you can put in a little circle.



Circle, beer can, Natty box. Gotta check your pattern some how after switching loads or gun or choke.


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## chuggins3473 (Feb 16, 2015)

Timber1 said:


> Now if turkey hunting was just a matter of how many holes you can put in a little circle.



It makes you wonder how people like my granddad ever killed one with a 12 gauge 3" magnum with a full choke barrel and lead #2's!  If he were still here that's how he would be doing it.


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 16, 2015)

chuggins3473 said:


> It makes you wonder how people like my granddad ever killed one with a 12 gauge 3" magnum with a full choke barrel and lead #2's!  If he were still here that's how he would be doing it.



Makes me wonder how many wounded birds where never found.


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## six (Feb 16, 2015)

Timber1 said:


> Now if turkey hunting was just a matter of how many holes you can put in a little circle.


I can understand where some folks enjoy tinkering with their set-ups and counting holes in paper.  It's like an extension of turkey hunting that they can enjoy all season.  Somebody gave me 10 TSS shells last year and I gave them a try.   I was told after I saw what they would do I'd never go back to what I was shooting.   Wrong! For some reason the extra holes in the 10" circle didn't excite me.  What does excite me is how many turkey's I can convince to put their head in that same 10" circle.  

Nice pattern by the way.  That's a lot of holes!  Good luck this year.


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## six (Feb 16, 2015)

01Foreman400 said:


> Makes me wonder how many wounded bird where never found.



I might be wrong but I think the amount of wounded birds has probably remained about the same, or if anything increased in the last few years.  I saw less people back in the day pushing the range limits than I do now.   At least that's my perception.  The shell wasn't the issue back then and it's not now.


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## hawglips (Feb 16, 2015)

Based on polls I've seen I suspect folks who shoot TSS "miss" (cripple) fewer birds than those that don't.   Looking at that pattern compared to others tells you why that would make sense.


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## chuggins3473 (Feb 16, 2015)

01Foreman400 said:


> Makes me wonder how many wounded birds where never found.



I killed one a couple of years ago that had a breast full of old shot,  looked like 7's or some other small shot.


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## chuggins3473 (Feb 16, 2015)

How many pellets does it take to kill one.  I know it don't take a hundred.  And crippling one has more to do with the person shooting than it does the shell type.


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## six (Feb 16, 2015)

hawglips said:


> Looking at that pattern compared to others tells you why that would make sense.



That's why I say the shell isn't or never was the issue.   All the responsibility has always fallen in the shooters hands.   And unfortunately there's more irresponsible shots taken today than there were 30-40 years ago.   Simply because there's a heck of a lot more people shooting at turkeys now than back then.  More people equals more shots, which I would guess translates to more crippled birds.   Even percentage wise I'm still not convinced of a difference between the two groups.  But I base that on my cripples with lead and your cripples with TSS.   Probably the same ratio.   I did booger a bird in Kentucky last year at 40 yards though, but it wasn't with the lead.  Me and my buddy have no idea what went haywire on that.  40 yards, still bird, head up, good rest, but no dead bird.

Not blaming the shell, it was obviously something on my end.  But I have no idea what.


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## erniesp (Feb 16, 2015)

six said:


> I can understand where some folks enjoy tinkering with their set-ups and counting holes in paper.  It's like an extension of turkey hunting that they can enjoy all season.  Somebody gave me 10 TSS shells last year and I gave them a try.   I was told after I saw what they would do I'd never go back to what I was shooting.   Wrong! For some reason the extra holes in the 10" circle didn't excite me.  What does excite me is how many turkey's I can convince to put their head in that same 10" circle.
> 
> Nice pattern by the way.  That's a lot of holes!  Good luck this year.



Thanks. Im very happy with it. Good luck to you too.


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## Killdee (Feb 16, 2015)

I have killed 2-3 over the years with shot other than mine.I would also rather see a man tinker with his gun and loads to decrease his margin of error than a feller who grabs a shotgun and a selection of odd shells and take off to the woods to hunt. I killed the majority of my Toms with  federal 2oz copper 6's, and have enough of them to hunt with most likely till Im to old and stove up to go. I got interested in TSS to enable me to hunt with a light weight 20  that equals or out shoots most 12 gauges and not get my fillings knocked out.


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 16, 2015)

30 or so years ago what percentage of hunters actually patterned their shotguns?


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## six (Feb 16, 2015)

01Foreman400 said:


> 30 or so years ago what percentage of hunters actually patterned their shotguns?



Only thing that resembled patterning that I can remember was wasting a shell shooting old tin roofing or something similar.  Some would shoot an old can or something.  If your gun shot six inches high and left, you aimed six inches low and right.   The number of holes was never discussed, but I do remember a nice spread out pattern was a good thing.   And I don't remember yardages being a topic either.  It was you can kill one from about here to that tree, and you had that visual burned into your brain.


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## hawglips (Feb 16, 2015)

six said:


> That's why I say the shell isn't or never was the issue.   All the responsibility has always fallen in the shooters hands.   And unfortunately there's more irresponsible shots taken today than there were 30-40 years ago.



This is an interesting thought.  Back in the days that 40 yds was created as the max range for turkeys, guns and shells couldn't put up what would be my minimum accepted standard for that range.  It was stretching the limits of the available guns and ammo - irresponsibly I'd say.


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## Timber1 (Feb 16, 2015)

Nannyman said:


> Circle, beer can, Natty box. Gotta check your pattern some how after switching loads or gun or choke.



Totally agree. I check mine even if I dont change anything. Guy would be foolish not to.


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## Timber1 (Feb 16, 2015)

hawglips said:


> This is an interesting thought.  Back in the days that 40 yds was created as the max range for turkeys, guns and shells couldn't put up what would be my minimum accepted standard for that range.  It was stretching the limits of the available guns and ammo - irresponsibly I'd say.



Id say it was more irresponsible for a man to not take the shot and maybe let his wife and kids go hungry for a few days til he got one to cooperate. Guess its a matter of perspective.


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## goblr77 (Feb 17, 2015)

chuggins3473 said:


> It makes you wonder how people like my granddad ever killed one with a 12 gauge 3" magnum with a full choke barrel and lead #2's!  If he were still here that's how he would be doing it.



Do you still talk on one of these?


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 17, 2015)

goblr77 said:


> Do you still talk on one of these?



Hey, it worked then and it'll work now.


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## The mtn man (Feb 17, 2015)

chuggins3473 said:


> I killed one a couple of years ago that had a breast full of old shot,  looked like 7's or some other small shot.



That's what I'm saying, that's an impressive hole count in that paper, have fun picking 300 of those out of your turkey's breast, lol


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## Nannyman (Feb 17, 2015)

cklem said:


> That's what I'm saying, that's an impressive hole count in that paper, have fun picking 300 of those out of your turkey's breast, lol



Almost never a pellet left in the meat. They pass all the way thru. Some friends and I all shoot them and all say the same thing.


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 17, 2015)

Nannyman said:


> Almost never a pellet left in the meat. They pass all the way thru. Some friends and I all shoot them and all say the same thing.



That's what I've heard as well.


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## Riverrat84 (Feb 17, 2015)

So a # 9 TSS will pass through a turkeys body at 40 yards?


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## fullstrut (Feb 17, 2015)

Dang it son! Now that's get it done. Bad to the bone right there. Impressive. Love it hate it but its greese poppin breast fryin right there.


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## hawglips (Feb 17, 2015)

Timber1 said:


> Id say it was more irresponsible for a man to not take the shot and maybe let his wife and kids go hungry for a few days til he got one to cooperate. Guess its a matter of perspective.



Good point.


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## hawglips (Feb 17, 2015)

cklem said:


> That's what I'm saying, that's an impressive hole count in that paper, have fun picking 300 of those out of your turkey's breast, lol



It don't work that way.  



Riverrat84 said:


> So a # 9 TSS will pass through a turkeys body at 40 yards?



Yes - but not all the time.

A #8 will give you 100% pass through of a mallards body at 50 yds.


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## Riverrat84 (Feb 18, 2015)

That's impressive, but it also raises the danger level even higher on public land. That's a lot of shot, and if it goes through ducks and turkeys at 40 & 50, it will probably have no trouble going in a persons face at 70 or 80 yards, and 40 or 50 will be leathal. 626 holes in you guts.


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## hawglips (Feb 18, 2015)

Riverrat84 said:


> That's impressive, but it also raises the danger level even higher on public land. That's a lot of shot, and if it goes through ducks and turkeys at 40 & 50, it will probably have no trouble going in a persons face at 70 or 80 yards, and 40 or 50 will be leathal. 626 holes in you guts.



That's correct.  Every improvement in performance of any shotshell or shotgun raises the danger level of that shotshell or shotgun by the same amount.   And the same is true of any other type weapon or ammo.


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## Reminex (Feb 18, 2015)

Riverrat84 said:


> That's impressive, but it also raises the danger level even higher on public land. That's a lot of shot, and if it goes through ducks and turkeys at 40 & 50, it will probably have no trouble going in a persons face at 70 or 80 yards, and 40 or 50 will be leathal. 626 holes in you guts.



I think a pellet to the eyeball could be fatal beyond 100.  I had a good friend have a bb go through his eye and lodge in his brain when he was 8 and he nearly died and lost all ability to care for himself.  This was at 20 yards from a bb gun.

One upside is that anyone taking the time to load their own tss is, IMO going to be a little more mindful than your average guy and has spent more than a few years recognizing the difference between people and gobblers.


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## Riverrat84 (Feb 18, 2015)

I probly hit the wma about ten times each year, last year I went opening day.... Never again. I got there at 530 all alone and waded to an island I had 2 birds roosted near. I knew they would probly pitch down to my island going by past experiences in that spot. Daylight started breaking, and he probably gobbled 10 times on the limb and it sounded like a nascar race, my island being the checkered flag. There were I know at least three other parties closing in from all directions, he flew down and lit about ten steps from me and I wasted no time waiting for the second one to lite. I shot him and got the heck out. But what if somebody else knew that same spot and slipped into it before daylight like I did and neither had any idea that we weren't alone.  If the turkey was to light between the two of us closest man shoots, other guy may be sitting 80 or 90 yards but by then pattern his spread out and sombody is getting a face full. Hope nothin like this ever happens to anybody. I'm not completely opposed to TSS I'm just a tight wad and have good success with lead. Hope a safe season for everybody.


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## Bucky T (Feb 18, 2015)

The fact that you sat down and counted all those holes for 10 minutes is impressive too.

That pattern is wicked!


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## hawglips (Feb 18, 2015)

Riverrat84 said:


> I probly hit the wma about ten times each year, last year I went opening day.... Never again. I got there at 530 all alone and waded to an island I had 2 birds roosted near. I knew they would probly pitch down to my island going by past experiences in that spot. Daylight started breaking, and he probably gobbled 10 times on the limb and it sounded like a nascar race, my island being the checkered flag. There were I know at least three other parties closing in from all directions, he flew down and lit about ten steps from me and I wasted no time waiting for the second one to lite. I shot him and got the heck out. But what if somebody else knew that same spot and slipped into it before daylight like I did and neither had any idea that we weren't alone.  If the turkey was to light between the two of us closest man shoots, other guy may be sitting 80 or 90 yards but by then pattern his spread out and sombody is getting a face full. Hope nothin like this ever happens to anybody. I'm not completely opposed to TSS I'm just a tight wad and have good success with lead. Hope a safe season for everybody.



Heaven forbid anyone get shot with anything while turkey hunting.  But unfortunately it happens every year, usually at close range.


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## mauser64 (Feb 18, 2015)

01Foreman400 said:


> 30 or so years ago what percentage of hunters actually patterned their shotguns?



I did. Only thing was I had to trace an outline of my forearm and fist to represent the turkey head. Didn't have any idea about a ten inch circle tho, just interested to see if I hit the " head ".


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## Gaswamp (Feb 18, 2015)

nice pattern Earnie.  Hal, I am having a hard time understanding why to you the 20 ring is important


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## Timber1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Gaswamp said:


> nice pattern Earnie.  Hal, I am having a hard time understanding why to you the 20 ring is important



Cause most guys shooting tss cant shoot straight. 



Longer the range=smaller margin for error.


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## Killdee (Feb 18, 2015)

I also like to see an even 20,Im getting about the same in the 10 and the 20 at 40 and with all the shot in a TSS load theres plenty to go around. The 20 is only about a 5" ring around the 10 so an even 20 gives you a little more margin for error.


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## cowhornedspike (Feb 18, 2015)

mauser64 said:


> I did. Only thing was I had to trace an outline of my forearm and fist to represent the turkey head. Didn't have any idea about a ten inch circle tho, just interested to see if I hit the " head ".



Me too but it was 40 years ago rather than 30.  Used my arm for a pattern too.  Never got anything close then to what I get now with TSS though.

I used to kill them with my old 30" model 12 fixed full and copper plated Federal Premium 6 shot.  30 yds was my max then but that was because that was all the gun was good for...now my max shot with my little 20ga is 45 but that is totally self-imposed as the gun/shell combo is good to well past 60.


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## GLOCKMASTER (Feb 18, 2015)

Working with Hawglips now to get started loading this awesome load.


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## hawglips (Feb 18, 2015)

Gaswamp said:


> Hal, I am having a hard time understanding why to you the 20 ring is important



You have 5" radius in a 10" circle.  A head bob or the like erases that pretty quick.   I am convinced that lots of birds are "missed" because they were hit with a weak pattern margin.   And shooter error is a constant component that live situations in the woods are plagued with.  That's one reason.  Another reason is to understand what your pattern is doing.  It gives double the information a 10" count does.   If I am going to evaluate what a gun/shell combo is doing, a 10" count only isn't a whole lot of use to that end.


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## Gaswamp (Feb 19, 2015)

most birds are missed because foks get in a hurry.  Birds are shot too far, thru brush or the shooter hasn't a clue if POI and POA match up


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## birddog52 (Feb 19, 2015)

3 or 4 in the head and neck will seal the deal just remember 40 yds about the max for most turkey shots


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## hawglips (Feb 19, 2015)

Gaswamp said:


> most birds are missed because foks get in a hurry.  Birds are shot too far, thru brush or the shooter hasn't a clue if POI and POA match up



There are lots of reasons for misses, in addition to the above -- including letting him in too close, skimping on shells, no idea what the pattern is really doing out there where the turkey is, no practice, etc.   Shooter skill, judgment, and poise is a big factor in it.  Some folks don't consider that, and will pay for it at some point.  Some need a wider pattern worse than others do.  But no shooter is perfect in judging distance, or aiming true, 100% of the time.   So, tightening down the pattern to a 10" core with a very sparse margin is not wise, IMO.  It will result in unnecessary "misses" at some point.  If I'm going to pull the trigger, I want him dead, every time.  Having some pattern and penetration energy cushion, and keeping an adequate 10-20" ring increases my odds of that happening over the long haul.


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## cowhornedspike (Feb 19, 2015)

Gaswamp said:


> most birds are missed because folks get in a hurry.  Birds are shot too far, thru brush or the shooter hasn't a clue if POI and POA match up



Most birds that are "missed" aren't...

they just aren't drt...

I doubt those that think they actually "miss" a turkey just by pulling the shot a few inches would be willing to stand out at 40 yds while someone does the same thing with the same gun and shells while aiming 1,2,or even 3 feet off target...


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## Gaswamp (Feb 19, 2015)

cowhornedspike said:


> Most birds that are "missed" aren't...
> 
> they just aren't drt...
> 
> I doubt those that think they actually "miss" a turkey just by pulling the shot a few inches would be willing to stand out at 40 yds while someone does the same thing with the same gun and shells while aiming 1,2,or even 3 feet off target...



missed was not a good word  shouldn't be in my vocabulary


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## Timber1 (Feb 19, 2015)

cowhornedspike said:


> Most birds that are "missed" aren't...
> 
> they just aren't drt...
> 
> I doubt those that think they actually "miss" a turkey just by pulling the shot a few inches would be willing to stand out at 40 yds while someone does the same thing with the same gun and shells while aiming 1,2,or even 3 feet off target...



Do you have any idea how far off you would be at 40 yards if your off a few inchs at the end of your barrel. 
I doubt youd be hit by very many pellets at 40 yards if your 3 feet off at the barrel.
And no, I wont be trying it.


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## Riverrat84 (Feb 19, 2015)

Aim small miss small


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## six (Feb 20, 2015)

Riverrat84 said:


> Aim small miss small



Thats why I aim turkey head


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 20, 2015)

six said:


> Thats why I aim turkey head



Aim for the eye.


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## erniesp (Feb 20, 2015)

After posting this and reading all these comments I have come to a conclusion. 

I shoot TSS because I'm a bad shot. Didn't know there was more to turkey hunting than shooting paper. My grandpa is disappointed because I use electricity and not a candle at the house. I'm going to spend 4 hours picking shot out of my turkey if I hit it. If anyone hunts near me I will kill them. Next time instead of drawing a circle I need to trace my arm so it will be like old times. I've learned a lot from this post. I hope all of you have a great season. Good luck to you all.


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## Timber1 (Feb 20, 2015)

Glad we could help you out.  
Keep postin keep learnin.


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## 01Foreman400 (Feb 20, 2015)

erniesp said:


> After posting this and reading all these comments I have come to a conclusion.
> 
> I shoot TSS because I'm a bad shot. Didn't know there was more to turkey hunting than shooting paper. My grandpa is disappointed because I use electricity and not a candle at the house. I'm going to spend 4 hours picking shot out of my turkey if I hit it. If anyone hunts near me I will kill them. Next time instead of drawing a circle I need to trace my arm so it will be like old times. I've learned a lot from this post. I hope all of you have a great season. Good luck to you all.




Yeah, first time I've heard about how much more dangerous it was than other shot.


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## goblr77 (Feb 20, 2015)

erniesp said:


> After posting this and reading all these comments I have come to a conclusion.
> 
> I shoot TSS because I'm a bad shot. Didn't know there was more to turkey hunting than shooting paper. My grandpa is disappointed because I use electricity and not a candle at the house. I'm going to spend 4 hours picking shot out of my turkey if I hit it. If anyone hunts near me I will kill them. Next time instead of drawing a circle I need to trace my arm so it will be like old times. I've learned a lot from this post. I hope all of you have a great season. Good luck to you all.


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## turkeykirk (Feb 20, 2015)

erniesp said:


> After posting this and reading all these comments I have come to a conclusion.
> 
> I shoot TSS because I'm a bad shot. Didn't know there was more to turkey hunting than shooting paper. My grandpa is disappointed because I use electricity and not a candle at the house. I'm going to spend 4 hours picking shot out of my turkey if I hit it. If anyone hunts near me I will kill them. Next time instead of drawing a circle I need to trace my arm so it will be like old times. I've learned a lot from this post. I hope all of you have a great season. Good luck to you all.


 
Lol! That's funny!


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## devilchild (Feb 20, 2015)

turkeykirk said:


> lol! That's funny!



x 2!!!


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## Reminex (Feb 20, 2015)

01Foreman400 said:


> Yeah, first time I've heard about how much more dangerous it was than other shot.



It sure is more dangerous to a turkey.


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