# What's in a pedigree.... Does it really matter?



## JuliaH (Jun 3, 2013)

I'm curious what you guys think?  My first GSP did not attract me for her stellar pedigree... I just liked her. When I had horses, pedigree was very important if I wanted to better my program and know that I was bettering the breed... 

In race horses, those yearlings go through sales for a LOT of $$, and they have not even seen a saddle yet. How do folks know they will be fast, able to win the owners back enough to pay for training, upkeep, etc. ?

Now, with those thoughts put out there for us, is pedigree everything?  I have to answer that with a resounding NO. You have to have the soundness, the style, the talented, easy moving dog/horse/whatever, to be able to do what you want with yours. 

But, this is a forum for upland bird hunting... so we must stick with the dogs  for the sake of this conversation and we cannot just go on personal hunting or competition. The desire to hunt is born in them and can be seen in many different ways... but this might just be fun to explore. 

Julia


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## king killer delete (Jun 3, 2013)

With dogs it is a start point and only that. Just  a way to try to improve your chance of having a good dog. Now I am speaking from the retreiver world and that is not to say that good dogs dont come from the backyard because they do.


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## 28gage (Jun 3, 2013)

Absolutely, your chances of getting the type dog you want are increased by getting a pup from dogs that throw their type and consistently.  You can throw two curs in the yard and get a good dog but your chances are better if start you with a line that has produced over the years.  Now within that line you need to pick an individual that shows the traits your looking for and every line has undesirable throw backs.  But yes the lineage is the place to start.


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## waddler (Jun 3, 2013)

It counts if you are breeding.  It is only a security factor, there are no guarantees.

I am far more impressed by the parents' than any other factor. One or two generations can easily negate championship lineage. 

Buy good lineage from excellent hunters, even then, no guarantee. 

Speaking of Britts, you are safer paying $1000 for a 9 month old pup, than $500 for a 7 week old pup. You can see so much more about the dog, and the Britt will bond quickly to you. Do the math on feeding, housing  and medicating a dog for 7 extra months and you will see the logic.


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## JuliaH (Jun 3, 2013)

Waddler you are so right... I learned long ago to look at the first 3 generations, and those champions in the pedigree need to be pretty close up to make much difference...  If there are no champions, then more homework is needed to know what those generations are all about, imho. 

There are no guarantees for sure, but lineage, in my opinion, tells a story. And we can "read" that story to make decisions on possible breeding, possible purchase, possible dog to use for serious hunting, competition, etc. 

For the weekend hunter, pedigree may not be such a big deal. Most of the bird dog breeds will hunt to some degree. 

Pet peeve of mine is seeing ads out there talking about champions in the bloodline and never seeing a pedigree. I have learned, if looking, to ask for the pedigree 

I am not sure it is as much a risk if the bloodline tells the story. Inexperienced trainers (me included) can mess up a good dog, but when the pedigree says an animal should be a good hunter, it probably is, if given enough of a chance 

Julia


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## setters (Jun 3, 2013)

I agree with everyone so far.  The pedigree just increases your chances of getting a dog that is biddable for what you want to do with it.


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## StevePickard (Jun 3, 2013)

I believe a strong pedigree helps stack the odds in your favor, but in no way guarantees an excellent dog.  When I look at pedigrees, I like to see that the grandparents and parents (of the sire and dam) show championship lines or at least hunt test titles. Then I would have to see that next generation, being the  sire and dam of the pups, are good hunters and preferably hold titles also.  To me, that shows that the famous grandparents are passing on their abilities down the line. 

I also think that the "weekend warrior" hunter that is taking the time to train his own dog actually  needs a well bred dog out of top bloodlines even more than the serious "full time" hunter or semi-pro trainer.  Think about it...if you only have a limited amount of time to train and hunt, wouldn't you want a dog that is proven to be genetically superior so he will have the potential to learn quicker and have more natural abilities and instincts bred into him so getting him to the point of killing birds over him is quicker and easier?  I feel that the more things a pup is genetically equipped to do the easier training and hunting will be.  

The person who has more time to work on training can afford more time to put into a dog to bring the dog into a  good hunting companion, but the "weekend warrior" does not have the luxury to spend time training and re-training to get a dog to the point of being able to kill birds over the dog and enjoying working with the dog.  Stacking the deck with good genetics, although it does not guarantee anything, can only help in getting that pup to the point of a good hunting companion a much quicker proposition. 

I've spent a lot of time researching pedigrees and acquiring the best possible bloodlines I can find in the country and raising pups from those lines.  I have personally seen what the "bred in naturally ability" means as far as train-ability of these dogs and I'm a firm believer in someone getting the best they can afford.  A poker player, if he could do it and get away with it, would stack the deck so he would have the best chance to win....so why shouldn't people buying a hunting dog do the same thing?  Do the research...find the good bloodlines, make sure the breeders are producing dogs with a good track record and buy the best you can find.

I do agree that you can tell a lot more from a started dog than from buying a pup two months old....but if the person is wanting to start off with a puppy, having every advantage possible genetically is a step in the right direction to having that pup turn in to a good hunting companion.
Steve


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## Jetjockey (Jun 5, 2013)

Yes and no.  A good pedigree increases your chances of getting a top quality pup, but doesn't guarantee anything.  There's been pups with high end pedigrees, that end up being house dogs.  But generally speaking, a good pedigree should produce decent pups......   With that said, there are decent trial dogs and hunting dogs out there, that produce much better than they are.  On the same token, there are lots of National Field Champions who never produced much at all.  They key is to know which dogs produce what, and that is hard to do.  That's one of the reasons Im heavily relying on my Pro for help when we breed my pup next year.   Most likely, her first breeding will be to a nice All Age dog that has only just recently been bred, but the cross between his pedigree and my dogs pedigree has produced well in the past..   If my pup produces, I might try to find semen from one of the few great NC's who also produced incredibly well.  But will again heavily rely on my Pro for advice.  Like anything, in general, a great Pedigree stacks the odds in your favor, but doesn't guarantee anything.  Getting a dog with a great pedigree from a known producer stacks the odds even more.


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## JuliaH (Jun 5, 2013)

The study of pedigrees is a big one, and its the reason I used Thoroughbred racing stock as an example. Those yearlings are bought for high $$ on pedigree alone... some folks will take a chance, but most of the time they have done plenty of homework by the time they are ready to spend that kind of money 

Yes, some pups from really good pedigrees end up as house dogs, but that's ok. It's pretty hard to hold an entire litter for competition only homes. Can be done, but takes a large kennel and plenty of experience in the training end on the part of the breeder. So, many folks will sell to good quality homes and only save the top pups (for themselves often, to better the bloodlines in the kennel). 

The reason, to me, that the study is important is to make the chances of getting what one really wants higher. A NFC bred to another NFC, if a complete outcross (or even mostly outcrossed with some exceptions) is a crap shoot for sure. 

Lots of things to consider too... conformation (ease of movement and lots of things in this category), level headed or very high strung, teachability... that's hard to see unless one can see the dogs and some of the other offspring, or unless one has a lot of friends with dogs from a certain lineage. This part may be a lot of the reason why it takes a long time to learn what one needs to know...

It is a fascinating study! Steve said a lot in a nutshell: 





> A poker player, if he could do it and get away with it, would stack the deck so he would have the best chance to win....so why shouldn't people buying a hunting dog do the same thing? Do the research...find the good bloodlines, make sure the breeders are producing dogs with a good track record and buy the best you can find.



Julia


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## pldangerfield (Jun 5, 2013)

I agree that reading a pedigree gives information on the history behind a pup but it is no guarantee that any given pup is going to repete that history. One of the best ways I've found to speculate on puppies is to actually watch the prospective dogs perform. It is by actually being involved in the sport that you can get a real sense of the potential of mating specific individuals. Even then there will probably significant variation in the pups from that planned litter. What you have done though is give yourself the best chanch of getting the kind of dog you want and like previously stated a pup's real potential can be better judged if it has been given a little more time to develop than the typical acquisition age of around eight weeks. I would rather make a commitment to a pup that can demonstrate clearly the desire to run and hunt and that takes introduction to the game.

The US Open Brittany Championship was initiated fifty-one years ago as a breeders stake that would promote breeding the exceptional brittanys that could not only run and hunt but had the endurance to compete in the hour qualifying series and then be able to be called back for another rigorous hour in the same week for the championship. The goal was to breed a better Brittany. Identifying the individuals that could meet this demanding  standard was still no guarantee that their production would be successful, but history has shown that it sure helped.

The 2012 winner of the US Open was Shadow Attack. Tack is the son of Shambo's Dark Shadow (RuCh 2001, Wr 2002, RuCh 2005, Wr 2006), the grand son of Tequila's Joker (RuCh 1996, Wr 1997, RuCh 2000),the great grandson of Jim De Bob's Sparks A Dan Dee (WR 1996), the great-great grandson of Markar's Jac' A Dan Dee (RuCh 1988), and in fact has winners of the US Open in every generation of his pedigree back to Way Kan Jill the first winner in1963. This year a son of Tack's, R J's Shadow Runner was runner up in the Derby Victorial, the hour stake derby that accompanies the US Open. 

So, pedigrees aren't everything but they are an indicator. It is still the individual performance that I think gives the best indicator. In the near future Tack will be bred to this year's US Open winner. It doesn't hurt to try and the odds will be better than most.


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## StevePickard (Jun 5, 2013)

pldangerfield said:


> I agree that reading a pedigree gives information on the history behind a pup but it is no guarantee that any given pup is going to repete that history. One of the best ways I've found to speculate on puppies is to actually watch the prospective dogs perform. It is by actually being involved in the sport that you can get a real sense of the potential of mating specific individuals. Even then there will probably significant variation in the pups from that planned litter. What you have done though is give yourself the best chanch of getting the kind of dog you want and like previously stated a pup's real potential can be better judged if it has been given a little more time to develop than the typical acquisition age of around eight weeks. I would rather make a commitment to a pup that can demonstrate clearly the desire to run and hunt and that takes introduction to the game.
> 
> The US Open Brittany Championship was initiated fifty-one years ago as a breeders stake that would promote breeding the exceptional brittanys that could not only run and hunt but had the endurance to compete in the hour qualifying series and then be able to be called back for another rigorous hour in the same week for the championship. The goal was to breed a better Brittany. Identifying the individuals that could meet this demanding  standard was still no guarantee that their production would be successful, but history has shown that it sure helped.
> 
> ...



I did my research and with a record like the "Shadow" line has, that's exactly why I chose a daughter of Shadow Attack to breed to Bullet! I've never regretted paying the price I paid for my Shadow and never regretted the time I spent doing the research to find the line I wanted.


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## Jetjockey (Jun 5, 2013)

Mr Dangerfield, I think you have every reason to be incredibly proud of Tacks record.


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## pldangerfield (Jun 6, 2013)

Thank you for the kind comment about Tack. He has tried to follow his dad but has been hampered for the better part of three years with an undiagnosed fracture that finally broke at the nationals a few years back and the after recovering from that he won the US Open followed by the repair to his leg failing. He has since been repaired again and seems to be feeling his old self. He will tell us this summer at camp whether he feels he can continue or if the discomfort suggests he take it easy and retire. I know what he'll say but I don't know if he'llreally be up to it.

Back to pedigrees and their value. I have been around field trial brittanys for a little over twenty-five years and have seen most of the successful brittanys since around 1990. I have witnessed people trying to breed the best to the best in an honest effort to improve the quality of our breed and sure the pedigree played some role, but they were primarily trying to identify the traits of dogs that if passed on might improve the quality of the next generation. Lots of these folks didn't breed often but would roll the dice if the individual dogs and suggested a promising outcome. I personally haven't been involved since I haven't had a field trial female since the eighties.

I did, however, own my first "world beater" Shambo who suffered ill effects of trying to be broke too soon after being almost untouchable during his juvenile seasons. Being the same vintage as Tequila's Joker and several other good ones, Joker and several others never beat him. Recognizing the situation, Bob John suggested I find a suitable female and breed him and that I would get a prett good dog. A friend had a Beans Blaze grand daughter and I kind of convinced him to breed pedigrees. Shambo was Ban Dee and Perry's Rustic Prince, she was Beans Blaze- it might work. That mating resulted in a five pup litter that included Shambo's Dark Shadow. I campaigned Shadow through his national championship and first US Open. Some years ago Ed Tillso related that he was going to breed Twister, a Joker daughter to Shadow. My response was keep what you guess is the  best male and we'll see how it turns out. While this was a breeding of very impressive pedigrees it was more driven by we knew what we had performancewise so we thought we had a better than average chance of getting a pretty good dog. 

It seems it is always a combination: the dogs that perform well create the pedigrees that people should look for if they want a dog that will be useful for their purposes. The best dogs beget the the most promising pups, but while pedigrees may result in consistancy performance tends to breed performance. That is the side I fall on.


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## JuliaH (Jun 6, 2013)

Thank you for your well informed replies to this thread   I am learning from you and others as we talk about an important topic.

Later this week, we will have a grandson of your "Tack" and we certainly wish him well. Whether retired or still out there competing, a great dog is a great dog!

Julia


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## ryano (Jun 6, 2013)

I know what Im about to say has nothing to do with upland hunting but I have found in my short time of having a retriever that if its not a dog out of an outstanding pedigree full of titles, some wont even give it a chance right off the bat.  

Others will volunteer their time and efforts to help you if they see even an inkling of ability out of the dog.

My dog is AKC registered and has a pedigree.  That pedigree is full of nothing but backyard bred pets that have never even seen a duck swamp or dove field.  She is backyard bred herself.   I paid 100.00 for her.   

She spent 3 months at bootcamp with a trainer and I was amazed at what he got out of her in such a short period of time. She is an excellent service dog for me and while not very steady to shot yet, a very birdy dog that LOVES to do the work.  Her marking is good, her casting is great and her blind work is decent.   She got her SHR title with 4 successfull passes in as many tries.

I got very lucky I know.  A pro trainer on this board explained it like this to me.    Its kind of like buying a scatch off lottery ticket.  Your chances of winning off of a 10.00 lottery ticket are much better than winning off a 1.00 lottery ticket just like the chances of having a great retriever are better if you pay up and buy from proven titled, hunting bloodlines.   Thats NOT to say you cant win from a 1.00 lottery ticket just as its not to say a backyard bred mutt wont make a fine hunting dog sometimes.

That made perfect sense to me.  Im assuming the same is true about upland hunting dogs.


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## Jetjockey (Jun 6, 2013)

Pldangerfield...  Those leg injuries can be a nightmare.  I heard recently that Jerry had to put down Dollar because of Extreme cases of them.  He told me several times he thought Dollar was going to be better than Chug....

 Good luck with Tack, I hope to see him at Nationals this year.


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## JuliaH (Jun 6, 2013)

ryano, 

You are giving the other side of the story and it is one that we also need to keep in mind. 

Those of us who are breeders study pedigrees. It sways the odds toward good dogs who will perform well. But it is not everything... 

My first GSP is now a Senior Hunter with passes on her Master Hunter title. There are many reasons for her not to be finished as a Master Hunter, none to do with her 

I am gonna post a picture of her, and she is the mother of my first Field Champion. If one looks at her pedigree in looking for the champions we have been talking about, they would be quickly bored. There are none to speak of until you get back to fifth generation. That far back, it is hard to believe that those dogs have any real effect on the pedigree. 

So, yes, good dogs can come from nothing. It is correct... like playing the lottery!  But when you have a good dog, you have a good dog, regardless of what it looks like on paper. 

When studying pedigrees, one thing that we can forget is to look at the animals attached to those pedigrees. My hope is that the paper and the animal match in quality. If one part is missing, it should be the paper, not the animal 

Julia









ryano said:


> I know what Im about to say has nothing to do with upland hunting but I have found in my short time of having a retriever that if its not a dog out of an outstanding pedigree full of titles, some wont even give it a chance right off the bat.
> 
> Others will volunteer their time and efforts to help you if they see even an inkling of ability out of the dog.
> 
> ...


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## puddlehunter (Jun 7, 2013)

Most of my experience is with working dogs/service dogs and retrievers.  

The pedigrees I think gives a base line, but regarding actually performing work I think they sometimes hurt as much as help.

With the pedigree you do get the chance to trace the champions in the blood line.  Not all great dogs are titled champions.  The pedigree does help to sell dogs for sure and is a great tool for tracking breeding, etc.  

I personally like to evaluate the actual dog.  Even with champion litters there is a special puppy in that litter.  Or sometimes a litter of duds.    I know it is necessary some times, but I don't like to leave picking my pup out to the breeder just based on the pedigree of the parents.  

Where I think pedigrees have hurt is that a lot of times people talk about and place all the importance on the pedigree, number of champions, etc and pay less attention to what the dog is actually doing.

Other than a few field trial washout labs, I can't  remember the last service/working dog that I was involved with that had a pedigree.  One of the trainers I have worked with will not even evaluate a pedigreed or titled dog.

For hunting dogs the pedigree does give a good starting point but I would say if at all possible, evaluate the litter personally and pick your pup yourself.  If you can't do that, don't tell the breeder your just looking for a pet and let him pick the dog out for you...


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## JuliaH (Jun 7, 2013)

Another good point raised... and that is to choose your pup yourself if at all possible. I know there are folks out there who will pick your pup for you, or if you are the last person to get in line for a pup from a particular litter you could wind up with one that is not your perfect choice.

I highly believe in the power behind the pedigree. Some of the "quality" in pups is their experiences after weaning, while learning to play in the yard, point leaves and bugs, etc. and handling. Some are keeping their babies longer to give them the best start possible. If we who are breeders do our job, then our pups are gonna be okay, and most buyers will be happy. 

The pedigree tells a story. We need to learn to "read" it and use it. It certainly is not everything, as has already been stated. 

I showed my Rose below and her plain jane pedigree... but she is a strong hunter, one anybody would be happy to work with.  In her 7 years, I only had one bad day in the field with her, and I am not sure what went wrong that day... it was hot and she just quit.  First and only time in her life that happened.. but I don't take them out on a hot day any more and expect them to run hard in the heat unless they have been kept in condition for it.

Julia





puddlehunter said:


> Most of my experience is with working dogs/service dogs and retrievers.
> 
> The pedigrees I think gives a base line, but regarding actually performing work I think they sometimes hurt as much as help.
> 
> ...


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## 28gage (Jun 7, 2013)

puddlehunter said:


> The pedigrees I think gives a base line, but regarding actually performing work I think they sometimes hurt as much as help.
> 
> Wut?  And how does it hurt?
> 
> With the pedigree you do get the chance to trace the champions in the blood line.  Not all great dogs are titled champions.  The pedigree does help to sell dogs for sure and is a great tool for tracking breeding, etc.




No, it's also a tool for tracking production and performance.  Since this is a upland game board it is very helpful as it can also show number of wins, offspring with wins and the number of their wins.  This is a good measure of the dogs ability to throw type.  Which is very important in looking for a trial competitor or a hunting dog.  Now if you want to say it's misleading in some cases because it doesn't take into consideration the number of times a dog is used as a sire then that's one thing but it's certainly more than just a sales tool or breeding map.


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## puddlehunter (Jun 7, 2013)

28gage said:


> No, it's also a tool for tracking production and performance.  Since this is a upland game board it is very helpful as it can also show number of wins, offspring with wins and the number of their wins.  This is a good measure of the dogs ability to throw type.  Which is very important in looking for a trial competitor or a hunting dog.  Now if you want to say it's misleading in some cases because it doesn't take into consideration the number of times a dog is used as a sire then that's one thing but it's certainly more than just a sales tool or breeding map.



Good points, I figured it was safe to mention pedigrees in general since the OP mentioned horses as well.  I think you should also take the individual dog into consideration not just rely on a pedigree.  Totality of circumstances if you will.

After all we have all seen the best family breeding produce a dud...and you can usually tell by lookin at em


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## JuliaH (Jun 7, 2013)

Horses is where I learned the importance of studying pedigrees to produce what I wanted. In horses I found out if the work was done and I made the right choices, I bred no duds 

I believe the same goes for dogs. One cannot just take 2 outcrossed dogs, no matter how good the bloodlines, and KNOW that all the puppies are going to be as good or better than both parents. Chances are good that the litter will be pretty nice if well bred dogs are chosen even if there are few alike. A dud in the litter?  Sure, its a good chance not all the pups will be what we want.  I have had cases where I should have known that a certain pup needed to be in a working home, not a pet home..lol. But I stand by my work and help when I am needed with my litters. 

This study is a lifetime one, not a quick project and then we know all we need to know... that little dud, or that outstanding pup will send us back to the drawing board to find out how we produced such, if we are truly interested. 

Back to horses for a moment... take the great race horse Secretariat as a for instance. He produced some nice horses but never did another come from his line that was like him. He was an anomaly, but he sure was fun to watch in a race, specially when he won the Triple Crown. No one knew though, that this great horse would not produce as good as he was.... 

The pedigree is a tool. A good eye for the dogs and the pups is also a necessary tool. No one part of breeding stands alone.

Julia



puddlehunter said:


> Good points, I figured it was safe to mention pedigrees in general since the OP mentioned horses as well.  I think you should also take the individual dog into consideration not just rely on a pedigree.  Totality of circumstances if you will.
> 
> After all we have all seen the best family breeding produce a dud...and you can usually tell by lookin at em


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## Setter Jax (Jun 7, 2013)

I agree with most of the posts on the importance of a good pedigree. I usually learn something new every day on here.  So thank you group!  Question for the breeders.  Many Breeders line breed their dogs to pass on the important characteristics, traits and to improve the breed.  Seems like most of the Britt's you are discussing are line bred dogs with similar or crossing bloodlines that share many of the same ancestors. 


Julia, you touched on this subject but could you go more in-depth on the subject of outcross.

My question is, if you take a good line bred dog that performs and outcross with another well bred, line bred dog, what are the chances of the pups being great performers???? Will you get the consistency in performance with the first litter of pups, or do you save a female and continue with the line breeding???  Example, Shadow Oak Bo, was from an outcross.  If you go back to his pedigree, he does not have a FC until two generations back...... Does an outcross skip a generation in performance?

Something this post hasn't discussed is the importance of the dame's pedigree in breeding.  I see a lot of breeders use females as just whelping dogs, but isn't the female equation of a bloodline just as important as the stud dog?  I thought with dogs and livestock in general, most of the traits passed on come from the female side of the pedigree two generations back?

Just an add on, Bozeann's Mosley was a HOF English Setter that didn't produce many champions.  But if you go back to Shadow Oak Bo's pedigree the Bozeann bloodline if there further back.


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## 28gage (Jun 7, 2013)

"Something this post hasn't discussed is the importance of the dame's pedigree in breeding. I see a lot of breeders use females as just whelping dogs, but isn't the female equation of a bloodline just as important as the stud dog? I thought with dogs and livestock in general, most of the traits passed on come from the female side of the pedigree two generations back?"

You are certainly correct about the importance of the bottom side of any breeding.  Most breeders will tell you that the female puts about 60% into the mix.  Some, and I'm one who believes it may be higher than that.  Mitochondrial DNA comes only from the female and can't be overlooked.  I have bought pups and bred with the aim of getting as much blood from a "blue hen" female Hanna's Elhew Lou in to the pups as possible.  Again it's as important if not more the the blood from the top side.


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## JuliaH (Jun 7, 2013)

Hi Jax,

A good outcross is important in any program. It is not hard to breed oneself into a corner by having all the dogs too closely related. For instance, both my field champions are 1/2 brother and sister.... not a good idea to cross them. Soooo... outcross her and save a baby, go thru the process again and get her titled and then cross that with the male I have.

Outcross progeny may or may not be as good as the parents, but then you can take that progeny back into your program (save the best pup for this) once that pup has proved itself in the field or in the competition arena such as any of the NSTRA, AKC, etc. competitions. 

To know if Bo was an anomaly or just a good representative of the breed (kinda like my Secretariat example) one would have to check out his brothers or sisters or offspring and see if that wonderful talent exists in them too.  I had the good fortune to visit the plantation where some of Bo's close doggie relations are, and they were good looking dogs. Did not get to see them work. 

You and 28gage have mentioned the mothers. Important!!! In Arabian horses, the mother line is how the desert people who had the horses before we did planned. The mares were important. The stallions were carefully chosen, but not like the mares. According to the Westwind GSPs kennel, the mother line is also very important in GSPs. 

There are a few good things on his website that will be helpful here. One is http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm  on line breeding. 

Another is on motherlines!  http://www.westwindgsps.com/motherlines.htm

By the way, my Rose's sire line is from this kennel. Her prowess in the field is no accident after all   I just did not know it then and many would not realize today what this man from California has done and written about breeding. 

I have only spoken with him one time back when Rose was a pup and before I began paying attention to the breeding and competition aspect. After all, I purchased her to be a pet. My personality, however, gets me into trouble... once I begin to learn a little, I want more. The dog will point. How cool! Will mine?  There is a place to compete?  Let's try that too!  Oh, there are field trials... what are they?  Wow! How fun is that!!  My poor husband has to put up with all this too..lol. I was the same with my horses... can't seem to be happy if I am gonna do something without wanting to do it more and better than the last time 

And then... I wonder if I can make more like Rose?  Then I met David and Sara King and (at that time) DC Doublerun Cole Bier. The rest still happening  

Julia




> Julia, you touched on this subject but could you go more in-depth on the subject of outcross.
> 
> My question is, if you take a good line bred dog that performs and outcross with another well bred, line bred dog, what are the chances of the pups being great performers???? Will you get the consistency in performance with the first litter of pups, or do you save a female and continue with the line breeding??? Example, Shadow Oak Bo, was from an outcross. If you go back to his pedigree, he does not have a FC until two generations back...... Does an outcross skip a generation in performance?
> 
> ...


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## JuliaH (Jun 7, 2013)

Boy oh boy, I agree wholeheartedly with this!  It is not just the boys that are influential and important in breeding. The female must be considered even more important. She raises those babies and teaches them. Her blood and temperament and conformation is as important as the male!

Thanks for bringing this up. On my last post is a good article I read on the motherline, and it made a lot of sense to me. I am so thankful for my background with Arabian horses because in my studies I learned a lot how the bedouins made those horses into the tough little horses that they are!

Julia



28gage said:


> "Something this post hasn't discussed is the importance of the dame's pedigree in breeding. I see a lot of breeders use females as just whelping dogs, but isn't the female equation of a bloodline just as important as the stud dog? I thought with dogs and livestock in general, most of the traits passed on come from the female side of the pedigree two generations back?"
> 
> You are certainly correct about the importance of the bottom side of any breeding.  Most breeders will tell you that the female puts about 60% into the mix.  Some, and I'm one who believes it may be higher than that.  Mitochondrial DNA comes only from the female and can't be overlooked.  I have bought pups and bred with the aim of getting as much blood from a "blue hen" female Hanna's Elhew Lou in to the pups as possible.  Again it's as important if not more the the blood from the top side.


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## Setter Jax (Jun 7, 2013)

Julia and 28 ga,

Great info thanks. Enjoyed the articles too.


Quote from Dr. Kleemann, "the success of Motherline breeding comes from utilizing very important sex-linked genes present only in the additional DNA of the X chromosomes of great producing (Stamm) females ... since a male dog has 76 paired chromosomes plus an X and a Y chromosome the only place a male can inherit these important sex-linked genes is through his mother ... therefore; when this son becomes a father only his resulting daughters (never his sons) get this valuable X chromosome back again (along with another X chromosome from their own mother) ... in turn, when these resulting grand-daughters become mothers the art of breeding lies in selecting only the male offspring that inherited this valuable X chromosome (as these great-grandsons will be able to pass the important sex-linked genes on to their get) ... in so doing we bring the influence of the Stamm female (through this valuable X chromosome) to the topside of the pedigree and dramatically improve our chance of producing great pups true to type when we breed to quality females from the same Stamm line ... thus the importance of having an unbroken Motherline on both sides of the pedigree]"

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the following statement, " the art of breeding lies in selecting only the male offspring that inherited this valuable X chromosome".

How do you determine which males picked up the value X Chromosome?

SJ


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## 28gage (Jun 7, 2013)

X-ray vision    I'm guessing the only way to know would be some sort of DNA testing/analysis.  But to get there with complete knowledge is as stated to have " unbroken Motherline on both sides of the pedigree".  This why the last litter I raised had my "blue hen/stamm female" on the bottom line of three of the 4 lines (Hanna's Elhew Lou as well as her HOF daughters Elhew Swami and Sunflower, and the father out of another daughter Elhew Hannabelle).   So the pups father and mother were both out of Elhew Sinbad a son out of the blue hen line of females) Not fool proof but best I can do not having a team of genetic heavy weights in the back yard.


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## JuliaH (Jun 7, 2013)

Ummmmm... you just asked the $40 million question!  I don't know. That sure gives a good question to ask. My first impression is the highest quality male pup, but I don't think this is the right answer. 

28gage is probably right on in this. I might just have to make some phone calls!

Julia


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## Setter Jax (Jun 7, 2013)

I'm still stuck at the office and can't get a hold of my pedigrees.  Those articles have made me re-think a whole bunch of things and my head is spinning. Lol  Both my males (Biscuit and Levi) have great pedigrees.  I want to do an outcross with Biscuit and Levi's sister.  They are from different lines 2 HOF (Biscuit), 1 HOF Levi, but a combined 7 FC between the two bloodlines.  Bloodlines similar way back in the pedigree.  Now I have to research the mothers side on both pedigrees. Luckily I have access to an ES data base now, so it should be easy to do the research. I wanted to keep a female pup from that litter to breed back to Levi and start my own line.  I also just did an outcross with Levi and a Lew with good bloodlines and if it takes I was planning on keeping a female pup.  But now I’m rethinking if I’m going to keep the 1/2 Lew pup.............  

Man, Julia and 28 gage.  You got my rethinking a whole lot of things...... lol


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## Setter Jax (Jun 7, 2013)

Also another million dollar question is selecting the best male or best female out of a litter. How do you do it when they are that young. That's another whole topic of discussion. Lol  I think it would be easier to make the selection the older the pups get, say around 3 or 4 months vice trying to pick at 8 wks.


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## 28gage (Jun 7, 2013)

Well,  this is excellent, I'm going out right now and scratch Tex and Sugar's ears,  tell them about their mother line and that they got Setter Jax thinking about them too. Today has been a success even if it's too hot to work dogs and won't be going fishing till Wed.


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## 28gage (Jun 7, 2013)

Setter Jax said:


> Also another million dollar question is selecting the best male or best female out of a litter. How do you do it when they are that young. That's another whole topic of discussion. Lol  I think it would be easier to make the selection the older the pups get, say around 3 or 4 months vice trying to pick at 8 wks.



If you come up with an answer to that one, the first million will be easy pickins...........


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## JuliaH (Jun 7, 2013)

I have tried to make a call to the man who could probably answer the hard question for us... but no answer. Will try again.  I hate to get stumped on that thought, but I expect Dr. Kleeman was pretty technical in his knowledge. I know he has a lot to do with the Deutsch Kurzhaar, and those folks are very strict with testing their dogs, following strict guidelines for breeding, etc.  and that is not a bad thing. It is, however, a preservation  group. My horses were called Straight Egyptian Arabians and there were only so many bloodlines to use if one wanted to remain in that strict category. 

Some stallions reproduced the mare. Breed an exceptional mare to him, or a plain one and you got what you bred. We called them broodmare sires and they were very helpful to those of us with good mares. Not all stallions had that quality, and I want to find out if the question is something like that 

With young babies, I like to watch their personalities. Some are pretty brave and pretty willing to carry around, and play a serious game of keep-away with, birds if given a wounded or dead quail. Look at the expression of the baby in the picture... 

It is easier to tell as they get a little older and I am getting convinced that those of us breeding outta let the pups stay with mom longer, and let her teach them.... like you said, another good conversation! I have been weaning at 6 weeks and then letting pups go usually about 8 weeks. Other than temperament, and only partly then too, and drive, it is harder to see the qualities we might want to keep or let go at that young age.

In these pictures, I like the pups' drive and intense little activities and stares. They won't lose that  but they can be a little harder to become pets...

Julia



Setter Jax said:


> Also another million dollar question is selecting the best male or best female out of a litter. How do you do it when they are that young. That's another whole topic of discussion. Lol  I think it would be easier to make the selection the older the pups get, say around 3 or 4 months vice trying to pick at 8 wks.


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## JuliaH (Jun 7, 2013)

More explanation on the pictures in my last post. 

#1. Pup says MY BIRD and she really did not want to let go of it..

#2.  Still trying to hang on to her prize. 

#3. in the lead, running from second pup. Sadie (not the mother) following both. Sadie caught, killed and gave the bird to the pup. 

#4. Another pup working on quail in cage. 

I use quail in a cage with babies at 6-8 weeks to watch them trying to decide what to do with it. If they ignore it, I know they are probably more laid back and might not be the best bird dogs from a particular group of babies. Those that are more intense with their bird can make the most difficult pets as they are the troublemakers 

Julia


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## 28gage (Jun 7, 2013)

Setter jax can speak for himself but I think he's talking about getting the pup with the good/value "X".  Not sure your method would work for that.


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## TheGermanIsBack (Jun 7, 2013)

Yes Mr. Steve Pickard. You did your homework on Shadows pedigree and ended up with an excellent dog. I told u that when I judged him and you at your very first Hunt test.  
Go Shadow !!!
Nikolaus


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## mschlapa (Jun 7, 2013)

JuliaH said:


> I have tried to make a call to the man who could probably answer the hard question for us... but no answer. Will try again.  I hate to get stumped on that thought, but I expect Dr. Kleeman was pretty technical in his knowledge. I know he has a lot to do with the Deutsch Kurzhaar, and those folks are very strict with testing their dogs, following strict guidelines for breeding, etc.  and that is not a bad thing. It is, however, a preservation  group.Julia



Julia, I have read through this thread with some interest and also a curiosity as to what peoples opinions would be. I wonder what you mean by the DK club being a preservation group. I happen to know a little about line breeding and genetics along with the development and use of mother lines. They are all valuable assets in consistently producing above average dogs and are being incorporated into our breeding program. Most folks realize the benefits of line breeding along with the risks associated with it. That being said the important thing is to start with above average dogs and be willing to cull when necessary, let the results dictate the direction you go. Once you have done that and have a line of dogs that you are happy with the most important breeding will be your out cross.


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## JuliaH (Jun 7, 2013)

In other words, the DK holds to different standards, to preserve what the GSP has been bred to be, not just enough to be AKC. 

Mother lines and careful linebreeding is what I did with my horses, and what I am working on with the dogs too. Certainly the "right" outcross is important to my program. 

Julia




mschlapa said:


> Julia, I have read through this thread with some interest and also a curiosity as to what peoples opinions would be. I wonder what you mean by the DK club being a preservation group. I happen to know a little about line breeding and genetics along with the development and use of mother lines. They are all valuable assets in consistently producing above average dogs and are being incorporated into our breeding program. Most folks realize the benefits of line breeding along with the risks associated with it. That being said the important thing is to start with above average dogs and be willing to cull when necessary, let the results dictate the direction you go. Once you have done that and have a line of dogs that you are happy with the most important breeding will be your out cross.


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## eddevelasco (Jun 7, 2013)

Julia, you make some very valid points points with horses. I also bred thoroughbreds. Pedigrees, dosage, and line that cross well together mean everything. However, as you point out greatness in performance can manifest at anytime. Good friend of ours owned Cannonero II. He won the Kentucky Derby, Preakness, got hurt but still ran in the Belmont and finished 4th in 1971. We would have been a Triple Crown Winner prior to Secretariat in the drought since Citation. Cannonero was purchased for $1,200.00. Then there is also the great Seattle Slew and his great offspring. Seattle Slew was purchased if I remember correctly for $18,000. The perfect pedigree was a sibling to Northern Dancer, purchase price at yearling sale was $24 million, he never raced.


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## JuliaH (Jun 7, 2013)

Cool!  You had a really good horse sounds like!  I worked in Ocala and a small town in FL called Fellsmere. Started out wanting to ride babies, but they soon got too fast for me 

Purchased for 1200 and went that far... wow!!  I just looked him up and watched a video. He was fast!

Julia


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## eddevelasco (Jun 7, 2013)

Correction it was $13.2 million for Seattle Dancer.


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## eddevelasco (Jun 7, 2013)

I loved his race in the Kentucky Derby where he cam from the back to win. If you look at his style he had a flaw with his right leg, he would kind of throw it out. Preakness we were in the front. Belmont we made a move to soon and ran out of steam. I owned a good soon of Graustrak by a Mr. Prospector female. I know Fellsmere well. Just moved to GA. from Florida.


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## 28gage (Jun 8, 2013)

But could he point birds when conditions were tough?


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## waddler (Jun 8, 2013)

If I could have only one dog, and I wanted to increase my odds substantially of getting an excellent bird dog,  field trial candidate and a loving companion, I would do the following.

1- Consider only registered dogs with championship lineage on both sides.

2- I would only buy from a hunting line, with the names of owners that are hunting previous siblings and close relatives. If possible I would go visit these people and observe their dogs.

3- I would want my dog to come from a pairing that had produced excellence in at least two previous litters.

4- I would check for any congenital defects that have occurred in these dogs.

5- I would then purchase an option on an 8 week old pup for $500.

6- I would leave the pup to be socialized and started by the  owner/trainer.

7- When the pup reached 9 months of age, I would go evaluate the dog. 

8- If satisfied, I would accept the dog and pay the owner an additional $1500.

9- If unsatisfied, I would walk away.

If I take the pup, I have $2000 in a dog with the characteristics I want. If I do not take the pup, the owner has been paid for his efforts and can still sell the dog to someone else.

Some folks think this is an expensive way to buy a dog, but if you pay $500 for an 8 week old pup and add up the expense of the next 7 months, you will find it is costly. However, taking home a dud that your family falls in love with, gives you 10 to 15 years of expenses and you still do not have a birddog.

The big item here is the field trialing, without that factor, I would just research the previous litters and buy a pup.


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## JuliaH (Jun 8, 2013)

Good thoughts waddler.  We should probably consider "started dog" in a thread of its own too... everyone seems to have a differing opinion on that too 

Julia


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## 28gage (Jun 8, 2013)

If you can find a reputable breeder that would keep a pup for 8-9 months and train it for less than $350-400 a month I wish you would send me the name.   Your numbers wouldn't cover the boarding.   You more than likely would have $3500 in the dog.  You could buy a 9-15 month old dog well started that would meet your requirements for $1500.


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## JuliaH (Jun 8, 2013)

True, and I have not reached the man I want to speak with about that.... when I do I will share what he says   I am also very interested in that x chromasome thing and how to be sure I could choose the correct male according to this article. 

But what I was answering with those pictures was 





> Also another million dollar question is selecting the best male or best female out of a litter. How do you do it when they are that young. That's another whole topic of discussion. Lol I think it would be easier to make the selection the older the pups get, say around 3 or 4 months vice trying to pick at 8 wks.



This statement is the reason I posted those pictures. If I were looking for a pup at a young age that I could be sure was birdy, I would want one with the qualities I showed...

Julia




28gage said:


> Setter jax can speak for himself but I think he's talking about getting the pup with the good/value "X".  Not sure your method would work for that.


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## waddler (Jun 8, 2013)

28gage said:


> If you can find a reputable breeder that would keep a pup for 8-9 months and train it for less than $350-400 a month I wish you would send me the name.   Your numbers wouldn't cover the boarding.   You more than likely would have $3500 in the dog.  You could buy a 9-15 month old dog well started that would meet your requirements for $1500.



Where would the started dog come from? You have me confused, first you say it is impossible and then you say you can buy the same dog cheaper.

I have sold quite a few "started Brits", at 9 months for $1250. The difference here is that I would consider them to be excellent Birddogs, but not Field Trial candidates. The dogs I sold were crate trained, pointing, holding, retrieving, leash trained, quartering, collar conditioned and of good socialization. They were not gunshy and were iffy on Whoa. 

I guaranteed that you could plant 12 birds and the dog would point, hold and find the dead birds. As you can see there is still a good bit of "polishing" to be done. The training was mostly obedience, the dogs brought the rest to the table. 

I would still do this all day long, but then I have the facilities for housing and training on site. Will not get rich doing it, but you have very satisfied customers.


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## 28gage (Jun 8, 2013)

Because that's what a started pup sells for, it may be a dog that doesn't run enough for an AA or SD trainer, and there are folks who keep 2 or 3 pups from a litter and sell the one or two they don't need.  You're asking a breeder to house and train a pup that you may or may not want for $500,  in the real world that's 350 -450 a month.  Have you even called  a breeder and offered this "deal" to them?  I can promise you they won't take it for a non refundable $500 weather or not you have the choice of walking away.

I have two pups right now out of fine dogs and am looking for a second dog I can campaign as a derby in a year, the one that doesn't run enough I will most likely sell to a bird hunter for the price I mentioned or more.  You say you keep dogs for 9 months and the sell them, I can only imagine this is not your only means of support but you're asking some one who makes their living from raising and training dogs to do this.  As I said when you find one let me know the number as this would take all the mystery out of buying a pup.  Now if your talking about some backyard breeder who would take this deal then good luck getting the quality pup you expect.  People raise pups to sell, not house and train, I'd venture to say that even the vast majority of backyard breeders would not go for this deal.

Now there's a very good bird dog man in Mo. that won't sell a pup till it's 18 mo. old and broke but he sells them for $3500 and up.  I think you see where this is going, he would laugh at your proposition.


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## waddler (Jun 8, 2013)

28gage said:


> Because that's what a started pup sells for, it may be a dog that doesn't run enough for an AA or SD trainer, and there are folks who keep 2 or 3 pups from a litter and sell the one or two they don't need.  You're asking a breeder to house and train a pup that you may or may not want for $500,  in the real world that's 350 -450 a month.  Have you even called  a breeder and offered this "deal" to them?  I can promise you they won't take it for a non refundable $500 weather or not you have the choice of walking away.
> 
> I have two pups right now out of fine dogs and am looking for a second dog I can campaign as a derby in a year, the one that doesn't run enough I will most likely sell to a bird hunter for the price I mentioned or more.  You say you keep dogs for 9 months and the sell them, I can only imagine this is not your only means of support but you're asking some one who makes their living from raising and training dogs to do this.  As I said when you find one let me know the number as this would take all the mystery out of buying a pup.  Now if your talking about some backyard breeder who would take this deal then good luck getting the quality pup you expect.  People raise pups to sell, not house and train, I'd venture to say that even the vast majority of backyard breeders would not go for this deal.
> 
> Now there's a very good bird dog man in Mo. that won't sell a pup till it's 18 mo. old and broke but he sells them for $3500 and up.  I think you see where this is going, he would laugh at your proposition.



How many 9 month old Britts, trained as I have described, can I put you down for? 

I was the breeder and the trainer, and it is not that expensive. The kennel and training course are already there whether being used or not. Biggest expense is food, vet and time.

Yard train them, put on the e-collar and enforce the "Here", run them on the training course, tweak 'em to quarter. If you have good dogs they will do  the rest. Put 'em on a cord and put 'em on some birds. Shoot the birds and grill 'em wrapped in bacon or fry 'em up.

Leave them on the cord until they staunch, then let them run loose and point. Snap a cord on them before the flush. Steady them and then send for retrieve. takes about 100 birds,  I was paying $4, maybe more now. Some of the profit is in "Quail for Dinner".

The idea is simple, separate the great from the good. Once the "Great" potential is established the real training starts. The main thing I tried not to do was to develop bad habits to be broken later. Paying for the option, is really just getting the pick of the litter, and if you contract before the litter is born, the breeder knows he has a sale.

Nearly all the pups will make birddogs, but some are problematic, like being soft, shy etc. Sell them at discount for pets. Usually you will know the real candidates at 4-6 months.

I prefaced the earlier post with "looking for field trial" candidates, but if you don't like the dog for FT and refuse him, I have $500 bucks plus a good started birddog for hunting that will bring a decent amount.

By the way, I got some of the best hunting Britts in town, maybe that is why I see no big problem with this. Search and you will get some takers on this program. Do not worry about how many dogs the breeder sells, research them out. There are some excellent bloodlines available from folks that only have one litter every two years or so. Volume and advertising does not bring a guarantee.


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## 28gage (Jun 8, 2013)

Wish you the best, let us know the breeder that takes you up.  Not all pups are natural retrieves so you might want to add another 500-1000 for force breaking.  Again let us know.........


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## waddler (Jun 8, 2013)

28gage said:


> Wish you the best, let us know the breeder that takes you up.  Not all pups are natural retrieves so you might want to add another 500-1000 for force breaking.  Again let us know.........



I think we are just on different pages. You are expecting more from a started dog than I am. As far as I am concerned, a dog is "started" when he is proven to be able to perform the Basics of hunting. That usually is around 9 months.

By the way, all Britts may not be natural retrievers, but of the crowd I have raised and dealt with, not one was "force broke", and they all came close enough for NSTRA. Just need a little "come here" enforcement.

I am not breeding or training anymore, I already got rich Training dogs.


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## JuliaH (Jun 8, 2013)

I have the answer.... and it is well written about in a book about Thoroughbreds by Marianne Haun called "The X-Factor". It works on any animals though.... 

Now, the horse breeding I was doing was right on track. I had bred a mare to her granddaddy to double up on the good blood I wanted. I bred the same mare the following year to her 1/2 brother, and got a gorgeous colt. If I had stayed in the horses and crossed those two and got a colt from it, I would have had my "broodmare sire" and that colt would carry the x factor, meaning he would recreate the mares he was bred to. With a sire like that, you only want to use high quality mares.

In the dogs, I would expect to breed Rose. Keep the best female pup. Breed Rose again, keep the best male pup. Later, cross those two pups.... yes the pedigree is tight and if there are problems in it they will show up so there are risks and one has to keep the best pups and cull the problem pups.... keep a male pup and he should create his grandmother with good breedings... his grandmother would be the foundation of the breeding program, in this instance (or example) Rose. 

The only way to do this is to have the BEST females you can get, from good blood, and look at the pedigree. It needs to be line breeding too, from  good lines. 

Most of us look at good males. The ladies in the kennel are the foundation of the program if breeding for a line that recreates itself this well.

The reason I used the horses again is because that is what I best understand   Gonna picture the mare and the two offspring that I would have crossed together. This can take 3, 4, 5 generations to develop


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## mschlapa (Jun 8, 2013)

Here are the pedigrees from one of my last breedings that I chose to keep a female pup out of. This is how I decided to line breed. This female is about 18 months now and doing great. She has all necessary health clearances and tons of natural ability. Three other pups from this litter went to experienced breeder/judges, along with another locally that I have had in for training and continue to work with on occasion. I have received lots of relevant feedback along with the dogs being tested in our system. These lines have consistently produced very well and I have bred them pretty close with out any negative results health or performance wise.
 If I decide to use her in our breeding program I will be ready to do an out cross. Picking the stud for the out cross is going to be extremely important to me. I bred this pups mother last fall to a stud that was line bred one of the best producing studs for the breed in recent years. Three of these pups also went to experienced breeders along with three in GA, two of which I will be working with. We have been getting great reports so far. I may use this same stud again with this pup when looking to keep another female.
Dam 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




Sire 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Dam





Sire





Pup


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## 28gage (Jun 8, 2013)

waddler said:


> I think we are just on different pages. You are expecting more from a started dog than I am. As far as I am concerned, a dog is "started" when he is proven to be able to perform the Basics of hunting. That usually is around 9 months.
> 
> By the way, all Britts may not be natural retrievers, but of the crowd I have raised and dealt with, not one was "force broke", and they all came close enough for NSTRA. Just need a little "come here" enforcement.
> 
> I am not breeding or training anymore, I already got rich Training dogs.



You can try and convince me and yourself that a breeder/trainer would board, socialize, and train your pup up to any definition of started you want for $500 and the hope that you would take the dog and pay an additional $1500 at 9 months, or walk away and pay nothing,  if you want .....but until you come up with a breeder/trainer that will take the deal your wasting valuable breath.(Was that a long, poorly constructed sentence or what?)  How you train and the deal you would take have no bearing on the original post.  Show me the pro that will take the deal and I'll go away quietly.  Again best of luck and let us know the folks that took you up.


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## mschlapa (Jun 8, 2013)

28gage said:


> You can try and convince me and yourself that a breeder/trainer would board, socialize, and train your pup up to any definition of started you want for $500 and the hope that you would take the dog and pay an additional $1500 at 9 months, or walk away and pay nothing,  if you want .....but until you come up with a breeder/trainer that will take the deal your wasting valuable breath.(Was that a long, poorly constructed sentence or what?)  How you train and the deal you would take have no bearing on the original post.  Show me the pro that will take the deal and I'll go away quietly.  Again best of luck and let us know the folks that took you up.



I know I wouldnt do it


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## JuliaH (Jun 8, 2013)

mschlapa said:


> Here are the pedigrees from one of my last breedings that I chose to keep a female pup out of. This is how I decided to line breed. This female is about 18 months now and doing great. She has all necessary health clearances and tons of natural ability. Three other pups from this litter went to experienced breeder/judges, along with another locally that I have had in for training and continue to work with on occasion. I have received lots of relevant feedback along with the dogs being tested in our system. These lines have consistently produced very well and I have bred them pretty close with out any negative results health or performance wise.
> If I decide to use her in our breeding program I will be ready to do an out cross. Picking the stud for the out cross is going to be extremely important to me. I bred this pups mother last fall to a stud that was line bred one of the best producing studs for the breed in recent years. Three of these pups also went to experienced breeders along with three in GA, two of which I will be working with. We have been getting great reports so far. I may use this same stud again with this pup when looking to keep another female.



Nice    Quality begets quality, and this is what I want to do with my GSPs.  One can pick out a common ancestor and work toward the end of creating that dog again, maybe with some improvements   I knew it with the horses, and the phone call today confirmed it for me. Figuring it out with the dogs has been a little more of a concern for me because I don't want to make a mistake and then have a whole litter of problems. 

In the case of my horses I wanted to pull in as much of one stallion as possible. My babies would have had that stallion 4 times up close, and a major son of his 3 times. I would have got the job done with a couple more years of work... but I ran out of time and $$ to continue. My stallion would  have probably been bay in color, but he would have done  exactly what I wanted 

So, now I am working on it with my dogs, using Rose as the foundation. I have her daughter and a son, now 5 years old, and if I don't make any mistakes, I probably will get someplace with this... I just don't want to err in judgement and have 8 or 10 oops pups   So, study some more!  I have found the book I mentioned but it is very expensive... have to poke around on eBay!

Julia


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## mschlapa (Jun 8, 2013)

What is the book?


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## 28gage (Jun 8, 2013)

"Here are the pedigrees from one of my last breedings that I chose to keep a female pup out of. This is how I decided to line breed. This female is about 18 months now and doing great. She has all necessary health clearances and tons of natural ability. Three other pups from this litter went to experienced breeder/judges, along with another locally that I have had in for training and continue to work with on occasion. I have received lots of relevant feedback along with the dogs being tested in our system. These lines have consistently produced very well and I have bred them pretty close with out any negative results health or performance wise.
 If I decide to use her in our breeding program I will be ready to do an out cross. Picking the stud for the out cross is going to be extremely important to me. I bred this pups mother last fall to a stud that was line bred one of the best producing studs for the breed in recent years. Three of these pups also went to experienced breeders along with three in GA, two of which I will be working with. We have been getting great reports so far. I may use this same stud again with this pup when looking to keep another female."



My 66 yr old eyes are beginning to follow the mother line and sire lines you've used even if it looks like German to me, one  thing I can surly see is very handsome,  well put together animals.  Your efforts have obviously  been rewarded.   Yours is a breed I'm not very familiar with but with google as my friend I've been able to become a little less ignorant of their standard.  Yours are fine animals.   You have reason to be proud of your efforts.


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## JuliaH (Jun 9, 2013)

It is "The X Factor" by Marianna Haun"  and it is about horses... but the principles are the same. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNDERSTANDI...535?pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item519bb440d7







mschlapa said:


> What is the book?


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## Jetjockey (Jun 9, 2013)

I don't think everyone is talking apples to apples here.  Yes, many Pros sell started dogs for $1000-$1500.  Dogs that have bad many months of training.  Dogs that have been introduced to birds, point, come, heel, and possibly even some whoa training.  Dogs that have been evaluated for potential, but didnt necessarily have what the breeder/pro is looking for.  That is different than what Waddler is talking about because he's referring to a specific dog that might not be kept on the Pros string.  I don't know of any Pro that would do what Waddler is referring to, and I have met most of the Brittany Pros.  At that point, the trainer is essentially training the dog for you, and that costs money.  In the other scenario, the trainer is selling a dog that was being evaluated in a program that, and the dog will not be staying on the Pros string. Similar situations, but different.    Here's a perfect example.  When we breed my female brittany next spring, my wife and I will be keeping one pup.  The rest will basically be given to the trainer for evaluation.  At that point, the dogs will essentially be his to do what he pleases, which includes selling them.  We are doing this so we know exactly what kind of dogs the breeding will produce, which helps educate us (me especially) about the quality, or lack there of, of the breeding.  This info is priceless in a breeding program.  Otherwise, if you sell the pups, all you know is what the new owners tell you.  Not only that, we will be looking for that great trial dog out of the litter who excels above the rest.  And if the litter produces a dog like that, it will stay on the Pros string and given/sold to an owner who will keep the dog on the pros string to be campaigned.  Because of that, in the long run the pro will have more knowledge, and make more money.   In that situation a Pro can sell a started dog for less because he got the one or two pups who will make him a lot more money in the long run.  In Waddlers example, once the pup is sold, the breeder/pro won't make any more money from that pup.  I don't see many Pros willing to make that sacrifice.....   With that said however, if I called a Pro and said that I wanted to get into field trialing, and I wanted the Pro to find me a great dog I could keep on his string to trial during trial season, and hunt durin hunting season, I guarantee you the Pro would find me a GREAT dog.   That would be the most likely way to find a great dog without breeding and getting lucky.


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## eddevelasco (Jun 9, 2013)

Julia, having spent more hours than I care to remember on the computer studying future crosses on the race horses, you are correct. I also agree as it applies to dogs. We follow same theory and our strain of Plott's is one of the best on bear in the country. That is a beautiful horse. 
I stopped by Wadler's place. Fell in love with his dogs. I will be getting his stock.
After visiting with Wadler I realized he has probably forgotten more about bird dogs then I will be able to learn. Martin, I haven't been able to stop thinking how incredible your pup Lacy is. I may have to take her from you LOL.


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## mschlapa (Jun 9, 2013)

28gage said:


> "Here are the pedigrees from one of my last breedings that I chose to keep a female pup out of. This is how I decided to line breed. This female is about 18 months now and doing great. She has all necessary health clearances and tons of natural ability. Three other pups from this litter went to experienced breeder/judges, along with another locally that I have had in for training and continue to work with on occasion. I have received lots of relevant feedback along with the dogs being tested in our system. These lines have consistently produced very well and I have bred them pretty close with out any negative results health or performance wise.
> If I decide to use her in our breeding program I will be ready to do an out cross. Picking the stud for the out cross is going to be extremely important to me. I bred this pups mother last fall to a stud that was line bred one of the best producing studs for the breed in recent years. Three of these pups also went to experienced breeders along with three in GA, two of which I will be working with. We have been getting great reports so far. I may use this same stud again with this pup when looking to keep another female."
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks.
Here is the stud I used in my last breeding with the dam whos pedigree I listed. Like I previously stated I may use him again with the pup I kept from prior breeding.


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## waddler (Jun 9, 2013)

Okay, how many owners trial their own dogs? How many Champions are found by trainers rather than bred by trainers? And last but not least, Why do people trial Britts in the first place?


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## JuliaH (Jun 9, 2013)

My trial dogs are GSPs and I am handling Annie to (I hope) an AFC title. She was taken to FC by her trainer, but she was bred by me. My Rose was her mother and her father belongs to the trainer.  So I guess she was accepted and "found" by the trainer because she was not bred by him.

I did buy my male, bred by trainer, because I was that impressed by his male, then Sam was trained to FC by him too. 

Julia



waddler said:


> Okay, how many owners trial their own dogs? How many Champions are found by trainers rather than bred by trainers? And last but not least, Why do people trial Britts in the first place?


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## waddler (Jun 9, 2013)

The next question is at what age are these "found" candidates when the trainer accepts them?


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## JuliaH (Jun 9, 2013)

Waddler, I am beginning to wonder at these questions?  Is it me, or that I use a trainer? 

My "found" Annie was about 18 months old. I sent her to summer camp with him and left her for field trials, then brought her home for the summer, then back to summer camp and more field trials. She finished her FC at 3 yr old. 

Just for the record guys.... I was 60 when I got my first bird dog.  I have learned a lot but would never dare train a dog to try to compete with people who have done this all their lives...  I have fun in the field with them, but I don't go out on my own to compete in Open Field Trials. 

Julia


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## waddler (Jun 9, 2013)

JuliaH said:


> Waddler, I am beginning to wonder at these questions?  Is it me, or that I use a trainer?
> 
> My "found" Annie was about 18 months old. I sent her to summer camp with him and left her for field trials, then brought her home for the summer, then back to summer camp and more field trials. She finished her FC at 3 yr old.
> 
> ...



Not about you at all. The questions are pertinent from the standpoint of how Champion Field Trial dogs are found and made.

Back in 1956 I got my first birddog, a several year old female that had already had some litters. She was good, and the guy we got her from said she was the result of her mother being thrown in with a championship dog while the owner was away. No stud fee that way.

Needless to say there were no papers. Well we bred her to another very good hunter and I got two pups, one of each. I took them hunting and they were good from the start. So not wanting two, I sold the female for $35 to a fellow that was well known around the Plantation scene. Surprise, surprise when three years later she won the local field trial among plantations, and lo and behold she now had incredible papers.

If breeding was the answer completely, there would be no need to take on a dog for FT training outside the trainer's kennel. But, trainers will gobble up a trainee in a heartbeat from anywhere as long as they can see the potential. 


http://www.whfreeman.com/catalog/static/whf/life9epreview/sample_chapters/LIFE9ECH17.pdf


 The dog genome
contains 2.8 billion base pairs of DNA in 39 pairs of chromosomes

Now I am talking Britts exclusively, that is what I do. Most of the American Britts come from a limited number of dogs brought over from France. If you check far enough back in pedigrees, it is amazing how nearly all of them are kin. The same Champions show up time after time. So what are the chances of a "Backyard Breeder" spitting out a National Champion? I don't know, but it is not an "outside" possibility.

Now campaigning is expensive, and most revenue for trainers come from pups, so it is only natural that the "breeding" aspect be ballyhooed. Another thing is that most dogs will never even have a chance at FTing, so many "would be" Champions wither.

Trainers and Breeders know this very well, so when they hear of an exceptional pup, they are all ears. They know that it is easier to start with a dog that already exhibits the qualities required, than to pick a pup from a litter and then try to make it a Champion. When a pup is born from FT Champions, it is in the spotlight and automatically at the front of the line for consideration for campaigning. However, if the trainer tried to campaign an entire litter, he would lose his shirt. It is therefore in their paramount interest to create prestige so as to sell inferior pups. 

In the final analysis their success is based on buyer's ego more than hunting.


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## JuliaH (Jun 9, 2013)

> Not about you at all. The questions are pertinent from the standpoint of how Champion Field Trial dogs are found and made.
> 
> Back in 1956 I got my first birddog, a several year old female that had already had some litters. She was good, and the guy we got her from said she was the result of her mother being thrown in with a championship dog while the owner was away. No stud fee that way.
> 
> ...



Thanks Waddler   And breeding is not the entire picture. If you don't have a good eye for a good dog, regardless of papers, the perfect breeding won't help either. 

I am not sure on trainers, except for the one I know. He fills his trailer to summer camp. Some of the dogs are pups he has raised, but many are not. He has several breeds including some spaniels that he trains and he is a great guy. 

My Sam came from him, and I wanted Sam enough to spend more on him than I had ever spent on a dog before. This was after I bred Rose to Sam's daddy. By the time Sam was bred, Cole Bier was what used to be called NFC. AKC changed the designation to National Gun Dog Champion the year Cole Bier won the big one. When I bred Rose, he was DC Doublerun Cole Bier. Now the title reads DC-NGDC.  Even then, when trying to decide on a mate for Rose, I had to use my knowledge of horses in watching Cole Bier..... he moves so easily and has a wonderful, gentle temperament. Sam is a lot like him.  I did not know then what a pedigree was behind Cole Bier. I do now  

The Kings were very kind to an old lady with a 2 yr old Junior Hunter. Some trainers would never have talked to me because she was only JH. 



> Now I am talking Britts exclusively, that is what I do. Most of the American Britts come from a limited number of dogs brought over from France. If you check far enough back in pedigrees, it is amazing how nearly all of them are kin. The same Champions show up time after time. So what are the chances of a "Backyard Breeder" spitting out a National Champion? I don't know, but it is not an "outside" possibility.
> 
> Now campaigning is expensive, and most revenue for trainers come from pups, so it is only natural that the "breeding" aspect be ballyhooed. Another thing is that most dogs will never even have a chance at FTing, so many "would be" Champions wither.
> 
> ...



A lot said here. I would be very curious as to how the Brittanys wound up as "regular" Brittanys in liver or orange and white, and as French Brittanys in more colors. I stick to the "American" Brittanys. 

Only owners or trainers or breeder/trainers who can afford, or can scrape together enough $$ will compete. And all that can afford it don't always want to compete. I believe there are a lot of dogs out there who never see a field trial or hunt test or NAHVDA (sp?) or NSTRA trial, or any other for that matter. It is a choice we make. For me, it has been made because I wanted my dogs "proven" before doing much breeding, and I am not a trainer. The trainer I use also understands my tight budget and we work carefully together to stay within what I can afford. I am not a wealthy person 

Selling inferior pups?  Not always. You must have had some bad experiences, where mine has been very good. My trainers won't breed at all if the parents are not FC or, if the client brings in a female, testing her to see if she has conformation and talent in the field.  I have yet to see an inferior pup from them, and I have worked closely with them for a few years now. 

Success based on ego.... I guess so, to some degree. It takes a lot of "WANT TO" to spend the time and money and energy whether you are competing dogs you have trained or whether you are paying a trainer. We tend to brag on our good hunting dogs too, that never see a competition. Nothing wrong with that. 

Actually I love it when the more experienced folks here who train and compete or hunt their own will interact with those of us who do use trainers. There is much to be understood and possibly learned on all sides  

If I find a trainer whose pups are inferior and their egos preclude them working with someone like me, I can promise you that I would not work with them for long... 

Julia


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## waddler (Jun 9, 2013)

Any pup that does not meet campaigning quality is "inferior" to professionals. Does not mean something is wrong with the pup.

"Regular" Britts were never only Orange and White, just that they were bred for the color because it was favored by the judges. There have been Liver, Roan and tri-color from the gitgo, but they were not in vogue. Most breeding was for show to begin with, and that was what they wanted.

I have never had any bad experiences, I was simply categorizing the dogs as superior being campaignable and inferior not having the characteristics. Actually, some of the traits of campaignable dogs are pretty annoying for a hunter.

I had a magnificent Female Brit that was so fast I could not hunt her on released birds. She would find them and I would have to tie her in order to shoot the birds. She caught them every time before they cleared the cover. People paying to shoot birds are not happy having the birds delivered sans shot. She is hunting wild Pheasant now up north and her owner loves her more than life. I sold her for a pittance, whereas had she been slower, a good price would have held.

What I said about ego was comparing it to hunting. FT ing leaves a lot on the table when it comes to hunting. So having the presumed prestige from owning a dog proclaimed to be the top line of an abbreviated subset, is more important to FTing than hunting.

I believe in breeding, but I believe in the producing generation of a pup more than its presumed ancestors. Hence, I don't put much stock in evaluating a dog for anything until they are about 9 months old. Even with the best of intentions, most of the pups in a litter will be average to good, as compared to the definite exception of excellent  FT qualities. 

On average, how many  litters do top trainers go thru before they get a National Champion? After all, they can't all win. And the winner is subjectively determined to be the best of the group.


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## JuliaH (Jun 9, 2013)

Thanks for the lesson on Brittanys. Sometimes the show ring does not do justice to any breed. Same in the horse world. Take a good characteristic and refine it almost to the point of it becoming a caricature! Ugh.

You are so right about hunting with a competitive dog. Annie, on one hand, is easy to handle whether just out there in the field having fun or in a trial. She probably runs harder in a trial than just having fun because of being braced with another dog.  You would probably like her... she will get out ahead but not so far you have to have a horse to keep up with her, and once on a bird, she will stay put until you are there to flush and shoot. 

Sam is a whole 'nother story. He is a big running field trial dog, and is going out for hour trials soon to see if he can handle nationals. In the kennel he is a cool, calm sweetheart, UNLESS he thinks there are birds to be found. A bit too edgy for me (amateur), and I don't EVER get him out into the field without at least his e-collar. He is roan and so he can be hard to find in the brush. If he finds a bird and is out of sight, he won't break point. Makes a bit of a problem to find him sometimes   But he is a top notch FT dog 

I like and have been thinking about your "9 months old" thoughts. I know that a little pup shows great signs of being more laid back or more willing to be the leader or play keep away with a bird, etc. But which ones will make FT dogs or better personal hunters... well, that probably does take more time to evaluate. 

All judging, in any animals, is subjective. The dog that might win under one judge just won't get the attention of another. And that goes for handlers too... A friend told me once (in a breed of dogs that were not bird dogs) that it took a long time to get the first Champion.... after that, he did well from then on. A new person in the field might be looked over for the more established handlers, amateur or pro.  This is true of more than dogs, as I mentioned before, and can be frustrating. 

Hunting tests are different because one is working the dog to a standard instead of competing against other dogs, but there are pluses and minuses there too 

You sure are making me think, and this is fun!  I have never been a hunter, but I do respect what you and other hunters do. It is different, but isn't that what trials and tests are supposed to emulate?   

Julia




waddler said:


> Any pup that does not meet campaigning quality is "inferior" to professionals. Does not mean something is wrong with the pup.
> 
> "Regular" Britts were never only Orange and White, just that they were bred for the color because it was favored by the judges. There have been Liver, Roan and tri-color from the gitgo, but they were not in vogue. Most breeding was for show to begin with, and that was what they wanted.
> 
> ...


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## Jetjockey (Jun 9, 2013)

waddler said:


> I have never had any bad experiences, I was simply categorizing the dogs as superior being campaignable and inferior not having the characteristics. Actually, some of the traits of campaignable dogs are pretty annoying for a hunter.
> 
> I had a magnificent Female Brit that was so fast I could not hunt her on released birds. She would find them and I would have to tie her in order to shoot the birds. She caught them every time before they cleared the cover. People paying to shoot birds are not happy having the birds delivered sans shot. She is hunting wild Pheasant now up north and her owner loves her more than life. I sold her for a pittance, whereas had she been slower, a good price would have held.
> 
> What I said about ego was comparing it to hunting. FT ing leaves a lot on the table when it comes to hunting. So having the presumed prestige from owning a dog proclaimed to be the top line of an abbreviated subset, is more important to FTing than hunting.



What you describe above is a training issue, pure and simple.  If a dog is catching birds, it isn't a trained pointing dog.  I hunt my trial dog on released quail all the time.  I also hunt her on released and wild pheasants.   If she points, I can go have a cup of coffee and come back, and she won't have moved.   When the bird finally flushes, she's solid as a rock....   

I also don't know any Pro trainers, at least field trial trainers, who make most of their money off breeding.  The money is made in 1 hr trial handeling fees, and most of their Champions come from within their own, and their clients, breeding programs.


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## waddler (Jun 9, 2013)

Few hunters train their dogs to stand to shot. They like for the dogs to get a head start on finding the dead bird and retrieving.


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## Jetjockey (Jun 9, 2013)

Not in my hunting circle........A broke dog is a safe dog.  If I wanted a dog to break at the flush, or flush, Id get a flushing dog.  Broke to wing is a bare minimum for a pointing dog IMO.  I HATE holding off on a shot because a dog is right under the bird.  Either way, it's a training issue and not a dog issue.


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## JuliaH (Jun 9, 2013)

This is scary to me!  I know of at least one dog shot by an over anxious hunter because the bird was flying too low and the dog was chasing. I would not allow folks to shoot over my dogs that way. 

Julia



waddler said:


> Few hunters train their dogs to stand to shot. They like for the dogs to get a head start on finding the dead bird and retrieving.


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## waddler (Jun 9, 2013)

Jetjockey said:


> Not in my hunting circle........A broke dog is a safe dog.  If I wanted a dog to break at the flush, or flush, Id get a flushing dog.  Broke to wing is a bare minimum for a pointing dog IMO.  I HATE holding off on a shot because a dog is right under the bird.  Either way, it's a training issue and not a dog issue.



If you want a dog steady to wing and shot, pay for it and I will deliver it. You do not get a started dog for $1250 that comes that way. If I train a dog steady to shot, I will not get a cent more from most hunters because they do not want it, and it is costly, taking a  lot more of my time, birds and helper time.

That comes under the heading of finishing, which can be bought. The price for the started dog is borderline poverty level at $1250 for a 9 month old pup.


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## Jetjockey (Jun 10, 2013)

We will have to agree to disagree on what hunters want in the level of steadiness.  I think many hunters are just too lazy to train their dogs properly.  I know, because that used to be me and my family. But now it's completely different.....    But back to pedigrees, I want a lot of Champions in a pedigree. It shows that the line of dogs can be broke, and arent a bunch of runaways.  Being fully broke is the ultimate level of staunchness in a pointing dog, and proves the dog can be trained and take pressure.  I wouldn't want a dog that is either unable to be broke because they are too thick headed, or a runaway.  That's one of the reasons AKC and AF trials require a dog to be fully broke.  It shows the dog can handle tough situations with manners, which is exactly what you want in a hunting dog as well.......   Growing up, we had more than a few perfectly health wild pheasants delivered to hand by our brits. That's not something anyone wants in a pointing dog, but we were too busy to take the time to fully train our dogs.  However, we had fun and killed a lot of birds over those dogs.  Now days however, all my dogs will be fully broke.  It makes a day in the woods or field much more enjoyable when you don't have to worry about your dog chasing a pheasant 1000 yards away because its not broke...  Been there and done that.  I've had unbroke dogs cost me a lot more birds than broke dogs.   And that's why pedigree is important, but doesn't guarantee you will get an FC from the litter.


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## StevePickard (Jun 10, 2013)

Well said JJ.  You and I are on the same page.
Steve


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## JuliaH (Jun 10, 2013)

A well broke dog is just plain safer. That dog is probably NOT gonna get shot in the field because it is steady to wing and shot.


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## waddler (Jun 10, 2013)

JJ,

I don't know that we disagree at all. I am speaking from a marketing standpoint, and you are stating your preference. It is more than obvious that you are not "in the dog business", you will likely never show a profit from your campaigned dog, even if it makes a champion. However, without puppy sales and stud fees, there is little money in being in the dog business. Pedigrees sell these two items.

I can't say whether there is a Britt out there without Champions in its line, that cannot be "Broke". (whatever that means) I have never had a Britt without Champions in its lineage, and when you go back several generations there are tons of them in most Britts. After all, they haven't been in this country in any large number, a century yet and there was a bunch of line breeding early on when the population of Britts was pretty closely held.

Also, with the advent of e-collars, "breaking " a dog from all sorts of stuff is much easier. So far, I haven't had a Britt that could not be "broke".

As far as hunters just being "lazy" on the steady to shot issue, I do not believe you and I have the same definition of "hunter". People that take their dog out twice a year to a shooting preserve are in my definition, because they buy dogs. They are not going to pay for the level of training you are advocating. Another item is that grouse and woodcock hunters tell me they want their dog on the shot bird as soon as possible. Likewise there are a number of rough cover pheasant hunters that are the same way. I believe if you poll the hunter population, you will find that most do not break their dogs to stand to shot, which of course is their prerogative.

What in your estimation is a good price for a fully broke 3 year old Britt?


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## Jetjockey (Jun 10, 2013)

We are talking apples to oranges. Pro field trial trainers/handlers make their money campaigning dogs, not breeding.  They breed in order to find a dog to campaign.  "Breeders" breed to make money, and many aren't Pro trainers....   I can purchase a fully broke derby with adult placements, for $3000 right now.  I can purchase a another derby with his points, and puppy placements for $2000.....   And your right, when we breed my pup it won't be to make money, we will breed to hopefully get a couple top quality trial dogs.   The washouts will get sold for a very reasonable price, but will have been started and exposed to birds.    Could I make money if I wanted to sell my pups?  Absolutely!!  I have a long waiting list of people who want pups out of her, but we won't be selling any puppy's as of now.  I could demand top dollar because of her accomplishments, and the accomplishments of the Sire, but that's not the purpose of our breeding.  I even had a Pro trainer tell me he wanted every single pup out of her he could get, but its not about the money.

 As far as dogs not being able to be broke, there is all levels of broke.  Several months ago in Ohio I was running my dog in a weekend Amateur All Age trial.  My trainer warned me that my bracemate (who is an FC/AFC) is known for busting birds. He told me I needed to keep my dog away so the bracemate doesn't take her out.  20 minutes into the trial my pup was laying it down.  All I really needed to do was not lose her, and not get taken out.  Unfortunately on her second find the bracemate came up from behind, blew the back, and took out the bird.  That was too much for my pup to handle and she too went with the bird.  Game over!  The thing that sucked was that I was winning, and that win would have earned the 1 remaining point I need to finish my dogs AFC.    The bracemate was an FC/AFC, but hasn't been bred because of his issue with taking out birds.  Sometimes he doesn't, but sometimes he does. He's a prime example of a nice dog that has trouble staying steady.


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## JuliaH (Jun 10, 2013)

Another misnomer....  





> "Breeders" breed to make money, and many aren't Pro trainers....



You are correct. Many breeders are not pro trainers. But I have yet to see a breeder (in the correct use of the word) breed just to make money. 

You should realize the expense in the brood dogs for titles, etc.  Maybe a puppy mill breeds to make money. I don't put them into the breeder category. But that is yet another topic 

Julia


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## Jetjockey (Jun 10, 2013)

When I refer to "breeders" Im not referi g to the person who has 1 or 2 litters a year.  I'm refering to people who breed to make a profit by breeding 5-10+ litters a year and every pup is sold.  Breeding two dogs to get a puppy, and selling the rest is not what I consider a "breeder" for the terms of this conversation. Luckily, in the bird dog world, there are very few true "breeders".  Most are like you,  and several other people I know that have anywhere from 0-2 litters a year.  People like that aren't doing it to make a profit, and I think that encompasses most bird dog breeders.


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## waddler (Jun 10, 2013)

JJ,

This question is very personal, and if you choose not to answer it I will understand. Many of us that do not campaign would like to know the true answer to this.

What amount of money would you have to get from the sale of your dog today in order to just break even. Include the purchase price of the dog, vet bills, food bills, kenneling, trainer fees, boarding, grooming, auto expenses, dog box, motels, entry fees and all the extra miscellaneous items usually taken for granted. Use a modest 4% compound interest factor.

Campaigning a dog must have some reward, is it financial, or personal satisfaction?


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## Jetjockey (Jun 10, 2013)

I have no idea.  Nore do I really want to.  It's a hobby, like golf, snow skiing, wake boarding, etc....  I know in the pointer world a top dog can reach $50,000.   But the Brit world is much different.   Trialing is simply an extension of the hunting season, with horses and competition, and its a ton of fun. My wife enjoys it, I enjoy it, and my dog really enjoys it.....   My wife and I agreed when we sent our pup off te be trained as my hunting dog, that if she had what it took to be a trial dog, we wouldn't hold her back.  That has turned into an expensive decision, but one I wouldn't change.  The last few years she has been one of the top point All Age Brits in the country.  She's also been an awesome hunting buddy and a great lap dog....  There's no amount of money Id sell her for.


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## 28gage (Jun 10, 2013)

Pride of ownership plain and simple.  Since the handler collects any prize money and you pay for training, vet, entry fees etc. it is impossible to make money on a trial dog without selling him or having enough success that he is used a bunch at stud.  There are only a few trials in which the owner get any of the prize money and these are the futurities.  In some cases not only does the trainer/handler (may be different folks) get a monthly boarding/training fee but a also a handling fee for actually running the dog.  Very costly but enjoyable habit.


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## waddler (Jun 10, 2013)

28gage said:


> Pride of ownership plain and simple.  Since the handler collects any prize money and you pay for training, vet, entry fees etc. it is impossible to make money on a trial dog without selling him or having enough success that he is used a bunch at stud.  There are only a few trials in which the owner get any of the prize money and these are the futurities.  In some cases not only does the trainer/handler (may be different folks) get a monthly boarding/training fee but a also a handling fee for actually running the dog.  Very costly but enjoyable habit.



Great answer. It is exactly what my experiences have indicated. It is simply a great pleasure to own a top animal in any category. 

This is legitimate, and points out that JJ and I are approaching the "dog business" from two diametrically opposed directions. Mine is from an economic standpoint for meeting a viable market demand and his, a no holds barred personal satisfaction endeavor.


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## 28gage (Jun 11, 2013)

Not so fast Brittany breath, it's not so cut and dried as you suppose, I hunt with a bunch of folks who want their dogs to stand for the flush and break with the gun.  It's the shot that asks the dog to mark the fall of the bird and get the head start you talk about.  Standing for the flush is a safety thing and doesn't cause the loss of birds but saves a lot of dogs from getting peppered in the fanny.  And the cost involved is minimal when spread over the 6-8 years a dog is in his prime.


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## mschlapa (Jun 11, 2013)

I  train all my personal dogs steady to W S F. It is a requirement for the VGP (highest level utility test) and in my opinion one of the marks of a finished dog. To each their own but I feel it is a good thing for safety reasons. I am careful, but I dont always hunt by myself and worry about others. I have versatile dogs that also track wounded game so losing a wounded bird or duck is not as big of a concern for us. We concentrate heavily on work after the shot and pride ourselves on ethical recovery of wounded game whether furred or feathered.


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## waddler (Jun 11, 2013)

28gage said:


> Not so fast Brittany breath, it's not so cut and dried as you suppose, I hunt with a bunch of folks who want their dogs to stand for the flush and break with the gun.  It's the shot that asks the dog to mark the fall of the bird and get the head start you talk about.  Standing for the flush is a safety thing and doesn't cause the loss of birds but saves a lot of dogs from getting peppered in the fanny.  And the cost involved is minimal when spread over the 6-8 years a dog is in his prime.



I know. I like for mine to stand to shot too. But I can't sell a started dog for $1250 and include that. It isn't all that hard to train it in them  with a helper and plenty of birds, but it costs. Plus, they will come unglued quick if the owner doesn't know what he is doing, and then he wants to find someone  to take the rap. 

Besides all that, I can start two for the cost it takes to finish one, and people do not realize how much it costs. So they are reluctant to begin with and if you don't perform a miracle, they are unhappy. I am happy letting other folks make all that easy money.


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## BirdNut (Jun 12, 2013)

*Layman's perspective*

I am learning a lot on this thread.  Genetics for me are a mystery that I don't have room in my brain to learn or understand.  

However, having owned and trained my own pointers and brittanies with and without pedigrees, I thought I would give a personal perspective:

Of the pedigreed dogs (some with HOF, DC/AFC etc. champions in their grandsires etc.) , all but one turned into fine shooting dogs.  The one is still young and a work in progress.    Of the "undocumented", only 50% turned into fine shooting dogs.  The others I took with reservations, that played out.  Some wound up as someone elses pets, others I tolerated their foibles.

So in my opinion, from a non-trial perspective, it pays a little to stack the deck with a pedigreed dog, even if you will never set foot or hoof on field trail grounds.

Several have mentioned personal selection of the dog-I think this is a good part of the mix.  I don't know if its an even mix or not, but good breeding, followed by careful pup selection, and then with proper training, tends to produce good results in the hunting world.  I think perhaps more diligence is required for trialing-but I have no experience with that.


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## BirdNut (Jun 12, 2013)

Jetjockey said:


> Not in my hunting circle........A broke dog is a safe dog.  If I wanted a dog to break at the flush, or flush, Id get a flushing dog.  Broke to wing is a bare minimum for a pointing dog IMO.  I HATE holding off on a shot because a dog is right under the bird.  Either way, it's a training issue and not a dog issue.





waddler said:


> Few hunters train their dogs to stand to shot. They like for the dogs to get a head start on finding the dead bird and retrieving.





28gage said:


> Not so fast Brittany breath, it's not so cut and dried as you suppose, I hunt with a bunch of folks who want their dogs to stand for the flush and break with the gun.  It's the shot that asks the dog to mark the fall of the bird and get the head start you talk about.  Standing for the flush is a safety thing and doesn't cause the loss of birds but saves a lot of dogs from getting peppered in the fanny.  And the cost involved is minimal when spread over the 6-8 years a dog is in his prime.



Of course the trial standards set what is the minimum for those dogs.  But as the above illustrate, there is quite a bit of variation on the term "broke" or "steady".  I have always found it best practice to have brief conversation with a new hunting partner bringing his brace of dogs.  Folks that are broke to wing/shot/flush understandably don't want their dogs potentially undone by another's heathens who chase at the report of the gun.  About the only thing I can't abide is a dog that runs up birds-either my own or someone elses.  So for me personally, the minimum is broke to wing/flush.

I think, however, the steadiness of the dog is more a function or training, sweat equity, and desire of the owner than it is of pedigree.


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