# Happy Easter



## red neck richie (Apr 11, 2017)

Just wondering yall's thoughts on the tomb being empty and the eye witnesses that saw Christ after he was crucified.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 11, 2017)




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## 660griz (Apr 12, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Just wondering yall's thoughts on the tomb being empty



 1) he wasn't put there. 2) somebody done stole him  



> and the eye witnesses that saw Christ after he was crucified.



You know folks have seen Elvis walking around after his death? Just saying.
My step-mom said she saw me fighting in a parking lot downtown when I was actually camping in the woods. So...

What do you think about this one?
Jealous rivals murdered Osiris and cast him into the Nile. His sister (and wife) Isis hunted for the body and returned him to life with the help of a magic spell. But Osiris soon died once again. This time his body was ripped to pieces and scattered across the world. Isis gathered up the fragments and joined them together for a decent burial. When the other gods saw the extent of Isis’ devotion, they rewarded Osiris by resurrecting him and making him the god of the dead.


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## bullethead (Apr 12, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Just wondering yall's thoughts on the tomb being empty and the eye witnesses that saw Christ after he was crucified.



Embellished fiction


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## jmharris23 (Apr 14, 2017)

Why don't ya'll tell the ol boy what you really think


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## centerpin fan (Apr 14, 2017)

I'm disappointed.  I expected some fireworks with this one.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 15, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm disappointed.  I expected some fireworks with this one.


I'm curious -
Why?
We've debated both points (empty tomb/supposed witnesses) before.


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## ambush80 (Apr 16, 2017)

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2013/03/jesus-just-one-more-dying-and-rising-savior-2/


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## 660griz (Apr 18, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2013/03/jesus-just-one-more-dying-and-rising-savior-2/



The last line pretty much sums it up.

"And here’s where the evidence doesn’t point: that humans worldwide invent dying-and-rising saviors … except in the Jesus case, ’cause that one was real!"


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## ambush80 (Apr 18, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2013/03/jesus-just-one-more-dying-and-rising-savior-2/



Did you read it, Ritchie?


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 18, 2017)

The title of the article is Jesus: Just One More Dying and Rising Savior, yet amazingly the author doesn't cite one example of another Dying and Rising SAVIOR.  Of course intellectual honesty is antithetical to Atheism, so that's to be somewhat expected, but still it was the Title.  Oh well.  It appears the only thing free thought is free from is any recognizable cognitive process.  The author would fit right in here.  As usual, the fact that such a imbecilic article was posted here stands as a true and fitting testament to the ones that laud it.


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## 660griz (Apr 18, 2017)

Osiris-Dionysus is God made flesh, the savior and “Son of God.”
• His father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin.
• He is born in a cave or humble cowshed on December 25 before three shepherds.
• He offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism.
• He miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony.
• He rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while people wave palm leaves to honor him.
• He dies at Eastertime as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.
• After his death he descends to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, then on the third day he rises from the dead and ascends to heaven in glory.
• His followers await his return as the judge during the Last Days.
• His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine, which symbolize his body and blood.


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 18, 2017)

660griz said:


> Osiris-Dionysus is God made flesh, the savior and “Son of God.”
> • His father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin.
> • He is born in a cave or humble cowshed on December 25 before three shepherds.
> • He offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism.
> ...



1). None of which was in the article.  Not that it matters, because

2) Its bogus data for the most part.  Not that it's expected, quiet the contrary, but here is an exhaustive Source of Near East pagan deities and their parallels with Christ.  Not suprising, when one looks at the FACTS and actually read what today's Scholars think, it doesn't fit the Athiest Meme.   But again,  it's not like anyone is expecting intellectual honesty from the Athiest.

http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/JesusEvidenceCrucifiedSaviors.htm


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## 660griz (Apr 18, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> 1). None of which was in the article.  Not that it matters, because
> 
> 2) Its bogus data for the most part.  Not that it's expected, quiet the contrary, but here is an exhaustive Source of Near East pagan deities and their parallels with Christ.  Not suprising, when one looks at the FACTS and actually read what today's Scholars think, it doesn't fit the Athiest Meme.   But again,  it's not like anyone is expecting intellectual honesty from the Athiest.
> 
> http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/JesusEvidenceCrucifiedSaviors.htm



My post was in response to you saying no saviors were in the list. 
Then, you prove there was.
You may need to read your own links.
Was Dionysus in the list?
Yes.
According to the link you posted, he was a: 

A "Son of God" ? Yes, son of Zeus. 
Yes  A Savior? Yes. 
Brought back to life.
Performed miracles? Yes, miracles of wine, growth, and others. 
 Communal Meal of Bread/Wine? Yes, wine was frequently involved with the cult.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 18, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> 1). None of which was in the article.  Not that it matters, because
> 
> 2) Its bogus data for the most part.  Not that it's expected, quiet the contrary, but here is an exhaustive Source of Near East pagan deities and their parallels with Christ.  Not suprising, when one looks at the FACTS and actually read what today's Scholars think, it doesn't fit the Athiest Meme.   But again,  it's not like anyone is expecting intellectual honesty from the Athiest.
> 
> http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/JesusEvidenceCrucifiedSaviors.htm





> But again,  it's not like anyone is expecting intellectual honesty from the Athiest.


No-one does? 


> Intentionally committed fallacies in debates and reasoning are sometimes called intellectual dishonesty.


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## red neck richie (Apr 18, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Did you read it, Ritchie?



Yes Ambush I read the article.  I agree a lot of people believe in different things, but it seems the author was just doing research on different cultural beliefs. So whats your point? I speak of personal revelation and personal witness that is backed up by what is written in the Bible. I speak on personal experience of my own not what some author is doing research on.


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Yes Ambush I read the article.  I agree a lot of people believe in different things, but it seems the author was just doing research on different cultural beliefs. So whats your point? I speak of personal revelation and personal witness that is backed up by what is written in the Bible. I speak on personal experience of my own not what some author is doing research on.


You relate your experiences by what you read in the bible. You make You feel special.
Just like all believers in all religions do with their experiences and ancient texts.


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## red neck richie (Apr 18, 2017)

bullethead said:


> You relate your experiences by what you read in the bible. You make You feel special.
> Just like all believers in all religions do with their experiences and ancient texts.



Bullet I don't feel special. I have no more favor than you. I am merely a humble servant.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 18, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Yes Ambush I read the article.  I agree a lot of people believe in different things, but it seems the author was just doing research on different cultural beliefs. So whats your point? I speak of personal revelation and personal witness that is backed up by what is written in the Bible. I speak on personal experience of my own not what some author is doing research on.





> I agree a lot of people believe in different things


Its odd to me that on one hand you can acknowledge this but on the other hand you don't see yourself as belonging to that "group".


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Bullet I don't feel special. I have no more favor than you. I am merely a humble servant.



I could take my experiences and relate them to the bible. I could relate them to the Koran. I could relate them to Stsr Wars.
But they are what they are. Unique to me and not a link to some ancient writings or hollywood script.


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## red neck richie (Apr 18, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Its odd to me that on one hand you can acknowledge this but on the other hand you don't see yourself as belonging to that "group".



Brother Walt good to hear from you. Not odd at all you were given free will just as every human has been given. Have you been fishing lately the spots are on fire right now.


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## red neck richie (Apr 18, 2017)

bullethead said:


> I could take my experiences and relate them to the bible. I could relate them to the Koran. I could relate them to Stsr Wars.
> But they are what they are. Unique to me and not a link to some ancient writings or hollywood script.



But you don't feel the Holy spirit when you do that therefore you don't believe. Maybe you should stop trying to figure everything out. And trust in Him. Especially when it comes to God and the supernatural.


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 18, 2017)

660griz said:


> My post was in response to you saying no saviors were in the list.


 Maybe you need to re-read my post as well as the ENTIRE link.


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## drippin' rock (Apr 18, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The title of the article is Jesus: Just One More Dying and Rising Savior, yet amazingly the author doesn't cite one example of another Dying and Rising SAVIOR.  Of course intellectual honesty is antithetical to Atheism, so that's to be somewhat expected, but still it was the Title.  Oh well.  It appears the only thing free thought is free from is any recognizable cognitive process.  The author would fit right in here.  As usual, the fact that such a imbecilic article was posted here stands as a true and fitting testament to the ones that laud it.



I can't get past the imagery in my head when you post like this.  I envision a coyote with his leg in a trap, snarling and snapping out of desperation. Like it sees its fate before it and can do nothing to stop it.


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## drippin' rock (Apr 18, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> But you don't feel the Holy spirit when you do that therefore you don't believe. Maybe you should stop trying to figure everything out. And trust in Him. Especially when it comes to God and the supernatural.



If we are created in the image of God, and by God, shouldn't we be free to seek understanding of anything we see fit?  Why is it that is ok with EVERY aspect of our lives until we question Spirituality?  You cant know.  quit overthinking.  Just trust.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 18, 2017)

drippin' rock said:


> If we are created in the image of God, and by God, shouldn't we be free to seek understanding of anything we see fit?  Why is it that is ok with EVERY aspect of our lives until we question Spirituality?  You cant know.  quit overthinking.  Just trust.



I think that faith is part of what God wanted us to have. He didn't give us all of the answers because he wanted us to believe in him by faith. If he gave all of the answers then faith wouldn't be needed and too many people would believe who aren't suppose too.


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## ambush80 (Apr 18, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think that faith is part of what God wanted us to have. He didn't give us all of the answers because he wanted us to believe in him by faith. If he gave all of the answers then faith wouldn't be needed and too many people would believe who aren't suppose too.



Is it possible at all that the writers of the Bible put all those caveats in there about "not trusting in the wisdom of man or carnal mind, can't discern without the Holy Spirit, word of the Lord is foolishness..."  and on and on to keep people from questioning?  Is it possible in the least?


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> But you don't feel the Holy spirit when you do that therefore you don't believe. Maybe you should stop trying to figure everything out. And trust in Him. Especially when it comes to God and the supernatural.



There is no Holy Spirit to feel, unless I convince myself that I need to feel one.
There is no magic Oak Stump in my yard unless I convince myself that it is magical and I NEED it to be magical and I relate every single positive event ,no matter how minute, to the power of the Oak.
All the bad stuff, thats that durn Ivy.


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## red neck richie (Apr 18, 2017)

bullethead said:


> There is no Holy Spirit to feel, unless I convince myself that I need to feel one.
> There is no magic Oak Stump in my yard unless I convince myself that it is magical and I NEED it to be magical and I relate every single positive event ,no matter how minute, to the power of the Oak.
> All the bad stuff, thats that durn Ivy.



How ever you describe good and evil you obviously know the difference. You just deny the source.


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> How ever you describe good and evil you obviously know the difference. You just deny the source.



I do not claim to know the difference. I deny the messengers that tell me they know the source.


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## red neck richie (Apr 18, 2017)

bullethead said:


> I do not claim to know the difference. I deny the messengers that tell me they know the source.



I don't believe that. You don't know the difference between right and wrong. How do you know what is right how do you know what is wrong?


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## WaltL1 (Apr 18, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think that faith is part of what God wanted us to have. He didn't give us all of the answers because he wanted us to believe in him by faith. If he gave all of the answers then faith wouldn't be needed and too many people would believe who aren't suppose too.
> 
> 
> > Interesting.
> ...


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I don't believe that. You don't know the difference between right and wrong. How do you know what is right how do you know what is wrong?



I know the difference of what our society allows.


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## red neck richie (Apr 18, 2017)

bullethead said:


> I know the difference of what our society allows.


What about what your spirit feels to be right or wrong? Yes I am trying to prove that we all have souls and that is the base line for the experiment as you would have it.


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> What about what your spirit feels to be right or wrong? Yes I am trying to prove that we all have souls and that is the base line for the experiment as you would have it.



You mean my mind. My brain controls the rest. If your brain wants to create multiple versions of itself in order for you to comprehend your own thoughts and feelings so be it.


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## Jack Ryan (Apr 18, 2017)

I'll pray for you people.

I'll pray you get some ice water, for Christmas.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 18, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> What about what your spirit feels to be right or wrong? Yes I am trying to prove that we all have souls and that is the base line for the experiment as you would have it.


Just point it out on one of those human anatomy pictures.


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## red neck richie (Apr 18, 2017)

bullethead said:


> You mean my mind. My brain controls the rest. If your brain wants to create multiple versions of itself inmorder for you to comprehend your own thoughts and feelings so be it.



No not your mind. Your mind understands logical things of the earth and what it sees. I am talking of things that are of God and are supernatural and unexplainable based on human knowledge.


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## red neck richie (Apr 18, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Just point it out on one of those human anatomy pictures.



Walt you understand the human brain? Let alone the human soul?


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> No not your mind. Your mind understands logical things of the earth and what it sees. I am talking of things that are of God and are supernatural and unexplainable based on human knowledge.



Yes, the make believe stuff that you know exists but cannot prove. Cannot show us. Cannot explain.

My brain allows me to be aware of people like you.


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Walt you understand the human brain? Let alone the human soul?



He/we are relying on you to explain it all to us.
The claims are easy to make, backing them up seems to be the roadblock all believers cannot get past.


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## jmharris23 (Apr 18, 2017)

drippin' rock said:


> If we are created in the image of God, and by God, shouldn't we be free to seek understanding of anything we see fit?  Why is it that is ok with EVERY aspect of our lives until we question Spirituality?  You cant know.  quit overthinking.  Just trust.



I think it's fine to question and doubt. Every one does. I think it's ok to ask honest questions. 

That said, if the one who has been asking questions does settle on believing in Christ, then you know there comes a level of faith that takes place.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 18, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Walt you understand the human brain? Let alone the human soul?


Just the basics.
Are you suggesting the "soul" resides in the brain?
If so, I agree with you.


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## red neck richie (Apr 18, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Just the basics.
> Are you suggesting the "soul" resides in the brain?
> If so, I agree with you.



Its a break through. I would agree. that is possible.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 18, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Its a break through. I would agree. that is possible.


Wait a minute we cant agree 
Maybe I should have worded it differently -
Instead of me saying "the soul resides in the brain" which gives the impression they are two separate things, I should have said "the soul is a product of the brain" or "the brain and the soul are one in the same".


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## ambush80 (Apr 19, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> I think it's fine to question and doubt. Every one does. I think it's ok to ask honest questions.
> 
> That said, if the one who has been asking questions does settle on believing in Christ, then you know there comes a level of faith that takes place.




I agree completely.  There has to have been a personal revelation.  That's impossible to prove and you can't go around saying that it's true for all people.  You can't say "I got it right and you've got it wrong" on anything.


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## drippin' rock (Apr 19, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think that faith is part of what God wanted us to have. He didn't give us all of the answers because he wanted us to believe in him by faith. If he gave all of the answers then faith wouldn't be needed and too many people would believe who aren't suppose too.



I don't know what to do with this. Even though I scoff at most of Christianity, I was raised SB. This "elect" stuff you peddle is absurd.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 19, 2017)

drippin' rock said:


> I don't know what to do with this. Even though I scoff at most of Christianity, I was raised SB. This "elect" stuff you peddle is absurd.


Art and others here can bombard you with scripture, that based on their interpretation of it, supports this "elect" belief.
And of course those (Christians) that disagree can bombard you with the EXACT SAME SCRIPTURE, that according to their interpretation of it, proves the "elect" belief wrong.

Its all a buffet. Just go with what you like....


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 19, 2017)

drippin' rock said:


> I can't get past the imagery in my head when you post like this.  I envision a coyote with his leg in a trap, snarling and snapping out of desperation. Like it sees its fate before it and can do nothing to stop it.



Weeping and gnashing of teeth eh?  May wanna get comfortable with the imagery.


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## ambush80 (Apr 19, 2017)

drippin' rock said:


> I don't know what to do with this. Even though I scoff at most of Christianity, I was raised SB. This "elect" stuff you peddle is absurd.



If you accept omniscience then predestination is the only rational position.  

I feel silly talking about this stuff.  Like arguing about the top speed of the Starship Enterprise or Superman.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 19, 2017)




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## Madman (Apr 19, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> If you accept omniscience then predestination is the only rational position.
> 
> I feel silly talking about this stuff.  Like arguing about the top speed of the Starship Enterprise or Superman.



But it is worth considering, I believe. 

At least you didn't have light saber fights in your dorm room.


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## ambush80 (Apr 19, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


>



You should invite some of the guys from upstairs to do a freewill vs predestination cage match down here.  No holds barred.


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## jmharris23 (Apr 19, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> If you accept omniscience then predestination is the only rational position.
> 
> I feel silly talking about this stuff.  Like arguing about the top speed of the Starship Enterprise or Superman.



We actually agree on something


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## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

jmharris23 said:


> We actually agree on something



On what?  The top speed of the Enterprise or Superman?


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## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

Madman said:


> But it is worth considering, I believe.
> 
> At least you didn't have light saber fights in your dorm room.



If there is a consciousness that exists that is omniscient then there can be no freewill.  

Or.

You can conclude there's no freewill by being convinced of this argument:



Gosh.  It makes sense but one still must operate as if freewill exists.  Run his experiment at 19:00.  "Were you free to choose that which did not occur to you to choose?"   Whoa, Nellie......

At 28:23  "A puppet is free as long as it loves its strings".


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## Madman (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> If there is a consciousness that exists that is omniscient then there can be no freewill.
> 
> Or.
> 
> You can conclude there's no freewill by being convinced of this argument:



And this is where the discussion gets good.  When we start requiring a definition of freewill.


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## Madman (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> If there is a consciousness that exists that is omniscient then there can be no freewill.
> 
> Or.
> 
> ...




What is free, the person or the will?  By not researching all possible cities, one has "willed" to select from those he knows and yet, he has also "willed" not to do his research and have a complete list of world cities.

"The will is always determined by the strongest motive."
                                                            Jonathon Edwards

 "We've got to believe in free will, we have no choice."
                                                                          Isaac Singer


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## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

Madman said:


> And this is where the discussion gets good.  When we start requiring a definition of freewill.




Wanna go with Webster or OED?


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## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

Madman said:


> What....



When did you choose to write the word "What"?  Did you choose it before the thought arose in your consciousness?  How could that be possible? All the research point to a fact that thoughts appear before we're conscious of them. Where did they come from?  If they came from our subconscious, where did our subconscious get them?  It's interesting to observe how thoughts appear in consciousness.  It seems impossible to determine where they're coming from.


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## Israel (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> When did you choose to write the word "What"?  Did you choose it before the thought arose in your consciousness?  How could that be possible? All the research point to a fact that thoughts appear before we're conscious of them. Where did they come from?  If they came from our subconscious, where did our subconscious get them?  It's interesting to observe how thoughts appear in consciousness.  It seems impossible to determine where they're coming from.



This causes us to entertain "What is a man...to himself?"


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## Madman (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Wanna go with Webster or OED?



Going to have to go deeper than either of those.  Perhaps the Arminian definition, or Locke. Sam Harris has what he believes is free will, which seems to lean toward free agent.

I like Jonathon Edwards view myself.


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## bullethead (Apr 20, 2017)

God seems to favor the Free Will of himself and other Evil Doers over the Free Will of their victims.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 20, 2017)

bullethead said:


> God seems to favor the Free Will of himself and other Evil Doers over the Free Will of their victims.


"I grant you the Free Will to choose as you please but if you don't choose what I say, I roast you".

Gee Thanks


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## bullethead (Apr 20, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> "I grant you the Free Will to choose as you please but if you don't choose what I say, I roast you".
> 
> Gee Thanks



Free Will is an excuse by believers so they can rationalize a non existent or at best a non caring god.


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## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

Israel said:


> This causes us to entertain "What is a man...to himself?"



That causes YOU to entertain that question.  It seems almost anything causes you to entertain that question.


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## Madman (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> When did you choose to write the word "What"?  Did you choose it before the thought arose in your consciousness?  How could that be possible? All the research point to a fact that thoughts appear before we're conscious of them. Where did they come from?  If they came from our subconscious, where did our subconscious get them?  It's interesting to observe how thoughts appear in consciousness.  It seems impossible to determine where they're coming from.



There appears to evidence that they do originate in our subconscious.  Perhaps that is where experiences, available languages, words, directions, etc. are stored.  When the need arises that code is sent to the brain for processing.  

As in writing a sentence "what" is the next word I should use? So when writing a sentence and all the available words are shown the subconscious knows not to pull from my experience of white water canoeing, unless that is the topic on which I am writing.  

No effect ever happens without a cause.

I believe I have strayed from free will.


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## bullethead (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> That causes YOU to entertain that question.  It seems almost anything causes you to entertain that question.



There is no meaningful conversation with him. These threads are just a platform for him to blog his thoughts. He asks himself questions and answers them. Rarely either having anything to do with the conversation at hand.
You saw where the other thread went that he offered to participate in with you.


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## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

Madman said:


> There appears to evidence that they do originate in our subconscious.  Perhaps that is where experiences, available languages, words, directions, etc. are stored.  When the need arises that code is sent to the brain for processing.
> 
> As in writing a sentence "what" is the next word I should use? So when writing a sentence and all the available words are shown the subconscious knows not to pull from my experience of white water canoeing, unless that is the topic on which I am writing.
> 
> ...



I don't think so.  As Sam said "If we can't find freewill here then we can't find it anywhere".    You're actually agreeing with him that the subconscious thoughts come from an infinite regression of events that have culminated in the "shape" of your mind.  Not allot of freewill there.


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## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

bullethead said:


> There is no meaningful conversation with him. These threads are just a platform for him to blog his thoughts. He asks himself questions and answers them. Rarely either having anything to do with the conversation at hand.
> You saw where the other thread went that he offered to participate in with you.



I guess I'm not feeling very patient today.  I took it as a bit of a sleight that his answer was so off the topic of my question, as if my question was meaningless.


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## bullethead (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I guess I'm not feeling very patient today.  I took it as a bit of a sleight that his answer was so off the topic of my question, as if my question was meaningless.


It's not that your questions are meaningless, it is that he has no factual answer for them so it is easier to completely bypass them and insert whatever that is on his mind at the time.
"You may ask yourself.."
"Each of us may be thinking.."
"This begs the question.."


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## Madman (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I don't think so.  As Sam said "If we can't find freewill here then we can't find it anywhere".    You're actually agreeing with him that the subconscious thoughts come from an infinite regression of events that have culminated in the "shape" of your mind.  Not allot of freewill there.



I don't believe I am agreeing, but then again I did not watch the entire clip.  

He says we did not say Cairo because it may not have been in our "database".  I say we will those things that cause us the least pain.

I said the town I was located in at the time the question occurred.  Was it at the top of my subconscious?

As I said, the definition of free will is not as simple as Webster may lead you to believe.  Many other terms must be agreed on before we would have the ability to proceed.

For instance, I have the freewill to (can) sit in any chair when I enter a room.  We need to now define can:

Can only encompasses 'available chairs'.  My will is not as free as I think.


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## Israel (Apr 20, 2017)

bullethead said:


> It's not that your questions are meaningless, it is that he has no factual answer for them so it is easier to completely bypass them and insert whatever that is on his mind at the time.
> "You may ask yourself.."
> "Each of us may be thinking.."
> "This begs the question.."


----------



## red neck richie (Apr 20, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> "I grant you the Free Will to choose as you please but if you don't choose what I say, I roast you".
> 
> Gee Thanks



There has to be laws in every society to keep the peace Walt. I am sure the Kingdom of Heaven is no different. If you don't want to get roasted don't do anything to get roasted. But you do have that choice.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

Madman said:


> I don't believe I am agreeing, but then again I did not watch the entire clip.
> 
> He says we did not say Cairo because it may not have been in our "database".  I say we will those things that cause us the least pain.
> 
> ...



You should hear his argument.  It's engaging (I think) and his presentation goes by quickly.


----------



## Israel (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I guess I'm not feeling very patient today.  I took it as a bit of a sleight that his answer was so off the topic of my question, as if my question was meaningless.



Sorry if it appears I sleighted you.


But tell me...what in this:



> When did you choose to write the word "What"? Did you choose it before the thought arose in your consciousness? How could that be possible? All the research point to a fact that thoughts appear before we're conscious of them. Where did they come from? If they came from our subconscious, where did our subconscious get them? It's interesting to observe how thoughts appear in consciousness. It seems impossible to determine where they're coming from.



is so alien to the question of a man barely knowing his own self as to say


> It seems impossible to determine where they're coming from.



"what is a man to himself?" Is he impossible to know...to himself?  What does he see? 5% 3? 89?...or really nothing?


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

Israel said:


> Sorry if it appears I sleighted you.
> 
> 
> But tell me...what in this:
> ...




Ok.  I'll grant that what you explore is _tangential_ (oh boy, is it ever) to the discussion of freewill.  

I see where you might be going, only because I'm familiar with the way you develop conversation, but regular folk don't usually wander off into the thicket like that when discussing a specific topic.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 20, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> There has to be laws in every society to keep the peace Walt. I am sure the Kingdom of Heaven is no different. If you don't want to get roasted don't do anything to get roasted. But you do have that choice.


Here's what you are missing -
The Kingdom of Heaven would still be peaceful if you just weren't allowed in based on your choice.

So what does the roasting accomplish?


----------



## red neck richie (Apr 20, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Here's what you are missing -
> The Kingdom of Heaven would still be peaceful if you just weren't allowed in based on your choice.
> 
> So what does the roasting accomplish?



How do you figure? Please enlighten me how it would be peaceful. Rapist, murderers, thieves with no repentance and change or belief there is no forgiveness there is no entrance.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> There has to be laws in every society to keep the peace Walt. I am sure the Kingdom of Heaven is no different. If you don't want to get roasted don't do anything to get roasted. But you do have that choice.




You have to keep the peace in the Kingdom of Heaven.....

Listen to yourself.

Are there unisex bathrooms in the Kingdom of Heaven?  What else do you know about the Kingdom of Heaven?  Does the top water bite last all day, forever?   Is there mud butt?  Do you wear underwear under the robe?  Do your wings molt?  Does this harp make my butt look big?  Do all the scratch offs pay?  Can I have all the ice cream I want?  Will they tell me who shot JFK?


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 20, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> How do you figure? Please enlighten me how it would be peaceful. Rapist, murderers, thieves with no repentance and change or belief there is no forgiveness there is no entrance.





> How do you figure? Please enlighten me how it would be peaceful.


Don't let the rapist, murderers and thieves in.
So I ask again -
What does the roasting accomplish?


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> How do you figure? Please enlighten me how it would be peaceful. Rapist, murderers, thieves with no repentance and change or belief there is no forgiveness there is no entrance.



How about the ones that repented?  Dahmer repented.  Do they get to kill, eat and rape just one more child if that's what they really love to do?  You have been suckered by a fairy tale, Richie.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Don't let the rapist, murderers and thieves in.
> So I ask again -
> What does the roasting accomplish?



All they have to do is repent.  Then it's all: 



"But I repent.  Sorry".


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> All they have to do is repent.  Then it's all:
> 
> 
> 
> "But I repent.  Sorry".


I like that red leather outfit. She kinda looks like a she-devil


----------



## bullethead (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> How about the ones that repented?  Dahmer repented.  Do they get to kill, eat and rape just one more child if that's what they really love to do?  You have been suckered by a fairy tale, Richie.


The thought elevator does not go all the way to the top.


----------



## red neck richie (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> How about the ones that repented?  Dahmer repented.  Do they get to kill, eat and rape just one more child if that's what they really love to do?  You have been suckered by a fairy tale, Richie.



No if so they have not truly repented or changed. By the way it is not up to me don't shoot the messenger. The rules are laid out for you. You just don't understand or agree why it is so. So you reject it.


----------



## drippin' rock (Apr 20, 2017)

Did I really just read that without hades, all the thieves and murderers would be in heaven????


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> No if so they have not truly repented or changed. By the way it is not up to me don't shoot the messenger. The rules are laid out for you. You just don't understand or agree why it is so. So you reject it.



You don't understand it either.  If you don't believe me start a thread about what Heaven is like in the forum upstairs.  None of you have a clue.  You may as well listen to me.

You've repented.  Do you still sin? Backslide?  fall short?  Then why can't Dahmer just every once in a while?  He feels sorry afterwards just like you.


----------



## red neck richie (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> All they have to do is repent.  Then it's all:
> 
> 
> 
> "But I repent.  Sorry".



Not sure of your point but my best guess is your getting sin confused with temptation.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 20, 2017)

drippin' rock said:


> Did I really just read that without hades, all the thieves and murderers would be in heaven????


Shhhhhh 

He doesn't mean that but he hasn't realized yet that's pretty much what he's saying.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

bullethead said:


> The thought elevator does not go all the way to the top.



Watch what happens next:


----------



## red neck richie (Apr 20, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Shhhhhh
> 
> He doesn't mean that but he hasn't realized yet that's pretty much what he's saying.



No that's exactly what I'm saying. I was waiting for you to enlighten me.


----------



## red neck richie (Apr 20, 2017)

drippin' rock said:


> Did I really just read that without hades, all the thieves and murderers would be in heaven????



Dripping rock what is the meaning of your avatar? I must admit I find it a little odd and didn't care for the song I heard when I researched it online.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 20, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> No that's exactly what I'm saying. I was waiting for you to enlighten me.


Wow! My bad.
You said the reason you get roasted is so the peace would be kept in Heaven.
I'm suggesting the peace would still be kept in Heaven if they just weren't let in.
Doesn't just keeping them out keep the peace?
So what does the roasting part accomplish?


----------



## red neck richie (Apr 20, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Wow! My bad.
> You said the reason you get roasted is so the peace would be kept in Heaven.
> I'm suggesting the peace would still be kept in Heaven if they just weren't let in.
> Doesn't just keeping them out keep the peace?
> So what does the roasting part accomplish?



I believe there are only two choices.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 20, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I believe there are only two choices.


Yes I know that. I'm trying to get you to consider a 3rd choice.
The peace would still be kept (that's the reason you gave) if God just didn't let them in Heaven and instead just let them rot in the ground.
Why the need to send them to be roasted?


----------



## red neck richie (Apr 20, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes I know that. I'm trying to get you to consider a 3rd choice.
> The peace would still be kept (that's the reason you gave) if God just didn't let them in Heaven and instead just let them rot in the ground.
> Why the need to send them to be roasted?



Sounds good to me but I don't make the rules I try to follow them the best I can. As far as I know that is only possible for 7 day Adventist. Lol


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 20, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Sounds good to me but I don't make the rules I try to follow them the best I can. As far as I know that is only possible for 7 day Adventist. Lol


Why does it sound good to you?


----------



## red neck richie (Apr 20, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Why does it sound good to you?



Do what ever you want no rules how you think things should be? Fact of the matter is there is a consequence for every decision that is made. That is free will.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 20, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Do what ever you want no rules how you think things should be? Fact of the matter is there is a consequence for every decision that is made. That is free will.


Ok Richie you win. Your resolve to avoid the question has wore me out.
But I'll answer your question -


> Do what ever you want no rules how you think things should be?


No.


----------



## red neck richie (Apr 20, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Ok Richie you win. Your resolve to avoid the question has wore me out.
> But I'll answer your question -
> 
> No.



 I will win if your house is beside mine in the Kingdom and we are fishing together. Otherwise I feel like you fell into the river and you were going over the falls. I stuck my arm out to grab you but you wouldn't grab mine and I watched you go over the falls.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I will win if your house is beside mine in the Kingdom and we are fishing together. Otherwise I feel like you fell into the river and you were going over the falls. I stuck my arm out to grab you but you wouldn't grab mine and I watched you go over the falls.



What's the world record Heaven bass weigh?


----------



## red neck richie (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> What's the world record Heaven bass weigh?



Not sure but I hope to find out.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 20, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Not sure but I hope to find out.



I hope it's all you've ever dreamed about and more.  I honestly do.


----------



## red neck richie (Apr 20, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I hope it's all you've ever dreamed about and more.  I honestly do.



I appreciate that brother. I hope your house is next door as well. We have different views on the afterlife but I can tell you are a good man.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 21, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I will win if your house is beside mine in the Kingdom and we are fishing together. Otherwise I feel like you fell into the river and you were going over the falls. I stuck my arm out to grab you but you wouldn't grab mine and I watched you go over the falls.


Although I appreciate you feel that way, you shouldn't.
I used to be a Christian. I'm perfectly aware of the price your god is going to make me pay if he exists.
I'm not a rapist. I'm not a thief. I'm not a murderer. I don't go to church on Sunday and then break the 10 Commandments on Monday. I don't worship any other gods. In fact, I now lead a more "Christian like" life than many Christians do. Am I perfect? No. I admit that and work on being a better person.
Next time you see God maybe you can ask him why that's not good enough. Maybe ask him why I have to worship him to be considered a "good" person in his eyes. 

Heck if the rapists, murderers and thieves can fish with you in the Kingdom sure seems like there would be room in the boat for the people who weren't those things.


----------



## Israel (Apr 21, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Ok.  I'll grant that what you explore is _tangential_ (oh boy, is it ever) to the discussion of freewill.
> 
> I see where you might be going, only because I'm familiar with the way you develop conversation, but regular folk don't usually wander off into the thicket like that when discussing a specific topic.



OK...you say tangential, fair enough.
I'm not interested in playing gotcha (well, maybe not as much as once I was...but who knows right?...maybe more so?) but somebody posted something like "a puppet is free, but only if he loves his strings". Or something like that. 

Then a man concedes "his stuff" might well be roiling up from the unobservable and (perhaps) unknowable (acknowledged as part of himself...maybe even the iceberg metaphor...a very greater part) into his consciousness. And from there, the man acts and speaks. (We haven't yet decided if this is, or must be true of _all men_..."but studies show").

Yeah, puppet and strings. "These are _my strings_" says the puppet, and how I love them so...for...they...are mine. It is of no consequence to the puppet (or so it thinks) that I do not know or see clearly the other end of their tether...for again...regardless it is all "of me". (we touched on this in the other discussion, the _not knowing_ of stuff poured in...let alone even moment to moment the stuff that "sneaks by" even after we are made conscious to _choice_).

Such fools we are! Thinking we stand as guards in the conscious...this I will receive...this I will not. This I will "let" become part and parcel of me...this I will not. It's too funny for words, but I see my freedom in word may be taken as sleight. For all the while those judgements of what to be let in, what will decide what is "of me" and what is not, what is acceptable, what is only fit for rejection...are all according to the strings being already pulled, already always having their tugs and yanks inexorably at work. Laughable.
"I will be what I want"...while all the while wants are never seen, desires and fears jerking away at strings...but in the man's mind he says "Look, I am my own product!"
He even sings to himself.


----------



## 660griz (Apr 21, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Heck if the rapists, murderers and thieves can fish with you in the Kingdom sure seems like there would be room in the boat for the people who weren't those things.



I don't won't to be in a place with rapist, murderers, and thieves. Seems to me the only difference between heaven and h3!! is the temperature. 
Maybe God forgives, I don't. 

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me. 
--Emo Philips


----------



## drippin' rock (Apr 21, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I will win if your house is beside mine in the Kingdom and we are fishing together. Otherwise I feel like you fell into the river and you were going over the falls. I stuck my arm out to grab you but you wouldn't grab mine and I watched you go over the falls.



My head just exploded.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 21, 2017)

660griz said:


> I don't won't to be in a place with rapist, murderers, and thieves. Seems to me the only difference between heaven and h3!! is the temperature.
> Maybe God forgives, I don't.
> 
> When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
> --Emo Philips


Well to be fair to the rapists, murderers and thieves, as long as they can eek out a repentance with their dying breath, then the rapists, murders and thieves aren't rapists, murderers and thieves anymore no matter how many victims they have raped, murdered or thieved.
That should be of great comfort to their victims.


----------



## 660griz (Apr 21, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Well to be fair to the rapists, murderers and thieves, as long as they can eek out a repentance with their dying breath, then the rapists, murders and thieves aren't rapists, murderers and thieves anymore no matter how many victims they have raped, murdered or thieved.
> That should be of great comfort to their victims.



I reckon God can forgive them since he made them that way. I don't. Plus, you never know when they could relapse and ask for forgiveness...again. 

God should have a, 3 strikes and you are out, rule.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 21, 2017)

660griz said:


> I reckon God can forgive them since he made them that way. I don't. Plus, you never know when they could relapse and ask for forgiveness...again.
> 
> God should have a, 3 strikes and you are out, rule.


Geez Griz with that attitude you better find out what tackle you'll need for fishing in the Lake of Fire 
Maybe a Daredevil spoon would work.......


----------



## 660griz (Apr 21, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Geez Griz with that attitude you better find out what tackle you'll need for fishing in the Lake of Fire
> Maybe a Daredevil spoon would work.......



If there is no cold beer, what's the point?


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 21, 2017)

660griz said:


> If there is no cold beer, what's the point?


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 21, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I appreciate that brother. I hope your house is next door as well. We have different views on the afterlife but I can tell you are a good man.



If you're right about which God is real it won't be, my wife and daughter will be with me burning in He11 for all eternity, too.  But we got what we asked for.  We made a choice with the best information that we had available.  You can keep calling that just and loving if you want.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 21, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> If you're right about which God is real it won't be, my wife and daughter will be with me burning in He11 for all eternity, too.  But we got what we asked for.  We made a choice with the best information that we had available.  You can keep calling that just and loving if you want.



By the way,  if I told you I had cancer would you care?  I bet you would.  I bet you would think about me off and on during the day.  Why don't you have that same reaction knowing that I'm going to He11?  Is the thought of it, the reality of it too much to bear?  Do you have to put it out of your mind that I will be burning in a lake of fire for all eternity with no end to my suffering?  Think about the reality of that.  Can you stand it?


----------



## red neck richie (Apr 21, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> By the way,  if I told you I had cancer would you care?  I bet you would.  I bet you would think about me off and on during the day.  Why don't you have that same reaction knowing that I'm going to He11?  Is the thought of it, the reality of it too much to bear?  Do you have to put it out of your mind that I will be burning in a lake of fire for all eternity with no end to my suffering?  Think about the reality of that.  Can you stand it?



I do have the same reaction. I pray for you all the time. That God would give you what you need for your proof.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 21, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> I do have the same reaction. I pray for you all the time. That God would give you what you need for your proof.



Will you feel sorry for me, suffering forever?  How long did Jesus spend in He11?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Geez Griz with that attitude you better find out what tackle you'll need for fishing in the Lake of Fire
> Maybe a Daredevil spoon would work.......



Hey, what's biting today?

"Blackened Redfish!"


----------



## drippin' rock (Apr 21, 2017)

red neck richie said:


> Dripping rock what is the meaning of your avatar? I must admit I find it a little odd and didn't care for the song I heard when I researched it online.



That's Bubbles from the Netficks series "Trailer Park Boys".

Bubbles lives in a shed with his cats. He gets scared easy.  Samsquanch is his way of saying Sasquatch.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

drippin' rock said:


> That's Bubbles from the Netficks series "Trailer Park Boys".
> 
> Bubbles lives in a shed with his cats. He gets scared easy.  Samsquanch is his way of saying Sasquatch.



Rickyism;
"Get two birds stoned at once!"


----------



## Israel (Apr 22, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Although I appreciate you feel that way, you shouldn't.
> I used to be a Christian. I'm perfectly aware of the price your god is going to make me pay if he exists.
> I'm not a rapist. I'm not a thief. I'm not a murderer. I don't go to church on Sunday and then break the 10 Commandments on Monday. I don't worship any other gods. In fact, I now lead a more "Christian like" life than many Christians do. Am I perfect? No. I admit that and work on being a better person.
> Next time you see God maybe you can ask him why that's not good enough. Maybe ask him why I have to worship him to be considered a "good" person in his eyes.
> ...



Since I am just beginning to learn the "no restriction" policy myself, it would be foolish to try and introduce it through any qualification, myself. But, you say, "I was once a Christian". So, forget about what you may (or even I may consider my stance!) regarding "being a christian" and what we may infer or imply of it in any application.

But...I find most "christian" people (presently self identifying...or presently _past_ identifying) have some sort of familiarity with the Bible. Usually (and often especially) with the part called the new testament.

So here's the question, did you ever read the part where Jesus says "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


Talk about "being in the same boat!" How could I deny you without being made a manifest fool, myself? The question for me isn't whether "someday I hope Walt and I can fish together, that somehow Walt will be made as "good" as me" (do you hear laughter? I do!) But that how could any man, anywhere, at any time (I know some find my tendency to paint with a broad brush, sloppy, to say the least)...get outta "that boat"?

You could ask..."so what about it then?" Why the Jesus hubbub (_this Israel guy_ amongst others) always seems to be making? I can't speak for others in this matter of the "why" in particular...(each man is given to declare his own relationship to anyone...surely including this Jesus)...but I am "allowed" to speak of what I believe I know.

So here's a thing I (presently) can't deny. (And I admit freely it is a simple cornerstone of my present thinking) Jesus is always telling me everything that is utterly impossible..."stuff". (or if you prefer...I am inferring, I gotta allow for that)
He never tells me "you got it now! You figured it out!" and this is really odd...because at times...I think I really do. But then...another impossible thing comes into view.
Impossible! Impossible! I mean...this Jesus is relentless in it.
I think I understand what the cross means, and I may even think I got some grip of it. And, quite metaphorically speaking...there I am...suffering nobly, sweating profusely, giving my most pious impression of ascending that hill with Him (yeah, I'm right here with you Jesus! How you doing friend? I know you wanted company...just some companionship...I'm here for you Bud!)...and boom...that girl's face in the crowd! Man, is she pretty! Makes me wanna straighten up a bit, suck in my gut a little, maybe even wince...but just the tiniest bit, y'know, show I'm bearing it (while also trying to show how very very tough this is!). Do you hear laughter yet? I do!
Who am I kidding?

Now, admittedly, it's times like these I think of all the times and times again I have either repeated or reminded myself (or been reminded) "If any man come to me and take not up his cross, he cannot be my disciple" I mean..."one" doesn't even get to "start" to hear from Him...apart from this! Huh? Impossible! Impossible!
And I so often think myself "a disciple"! 
There's only one thing I am expert at, to deny it now would bring a laughter I don't think I can bear to hear...for I don't perceive it would be "laughing with me". 

I am an expert fraud.

Pick me apart to the deepest particle I have yet seen of myself (but indeed, I also admit..."that" picking has a very salubrious effect...which I cannot explain) and I trust every particle will be stamped and say "done for an audience". For wife...one demeanor and face. Co-workers get another, children, another, friends..."enemies"...I got a trunk full of faces. And each is always being cosmetically modified per reaction. 

OOOps! Shouldn't have put on that scorn face to such a degree toward that guy in the bar whose arms were 5 inches larger than mine! Noted!
Shouldn't have put on that "smart face" among these atheists (they're already pretty expert at looking past my "pious" face "I'm only here to help you poor poor shlubs")...cause some obviously do quadratics in their sleep! Noted!

But this fellow Jesus keeps ripping off masks! Doesn't He ever get tired? Impossible! He even gets past the one I don't think I have ever allowed anyone else (or should I say...been so provoked as to show anyone else?) "Why the he** are you treating me this way?"

'Yeah...one time I got so deep in the doo doo (to me) this thought came "Are you just trying to take advantage of my good nature?" (I hope you someday hear that laughter!...like maybe even now) Yeah, that remains an all time belly buster!

So yeah, I kinda love Him. He's impossible to be with...pretty much...like me.

If we wanna stick with the boating analogy, I'd have to say...He knows me stem to stern. I don't.
But, He's the one who never jumped ship, and yet also won't fall for my masks. It's really quite impossible to understand well enough to explain. It's just who He is.

It's odd (and yes, I know _I say that a lot_) how it seems to be working. If I allow Him the what..."dignity"??? respect?   "allowance"? of Him to be who he says He is...I hear this..."yeah, it's fine for you to be who you are, too...at least with me"

No one else I know (wife, children, parents, friends...enemies) has ever told me so as convincingly. Nor unremittingly in practice.
Yeah...for now...at least...that's what "my" hubbub is about.
An impossible fellow finding another impossible fellow. And calling him...friend. Yeah...it's impossible.
Just look around the boat.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 22, 2017)

□ Morning question and answer period with Israel to Israel.
✔ check


----------



## welderguy (Apr 22, 2017)

bullethead said:


> □ Morning question and answer period with Israel to Israel.
> ✔ check



I rather enjoyed it. It struck a chord in my heart.
Made me think of what Jesus said: "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

Thanks Israel.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 22, 2017)

welderguy said:


> I rather enjoyed it. It struck a chord in my heart.
> Made me think of what Jesus said: "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."
> 
> Thanks Israel.


Yeah, it's nice to be able to have a place where a potential audience is already there instead of relying on the works to have them come.


----------



## welderguy (Apr 22, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Yeah, it's nice to be able to have a place where a potential audience is already there instead of relying on the works to have them come.



works ??


----------



## Israel (Apr 22, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Yeah, it's nice to be able to have a place where a potential audience is already there instead of relying on the works to have them come.


LOL...now that's funny right there.
Who doesn't slow down to see how _bad_ the accident was?

LOL, I shoulda said...collision. So, I will.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 22, 2017)

welderguy said:


> works ??



It seems to me that he tries too hard to use the active threads as a chance to get some spotlight to insert his current thoughts blog or a diary of daily ramblings rather than just have a coherent conversation that follows the current conversation. 
Asking and answering your own questions in order to sway a conversation towards your thoughts and then running with them as if someone else asked you your opinion about them is not a style I can appreciate.
The threads are more of platform to post his "works" than continue the conversation at hand.

It is very very rare to have a thread started by by him and take off with a bunch of replies. I think he is a fine individual. Just not a fan of the writing style for these forums. His talent in that area is more for a personal blog.

That is just how I see it.


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## bullethead (Apr 22, 2017)

Israel said:


> LOL...now that's funny right there.
> Who doesn't slow down to see how _bad_ the accident was?
> 
> LOL, I shoulda said...collision. So, I will.



See, CAPABLE of simple conversation. 
Chooses to blog mostly.


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## Israel (Apr 22, 2017)

"If you cain't pick apart the werds, then ya just go on 'haid and pick apart the man, you gunna get to the truth quicker that ways, anyhow."
Jeb Greesom from "Partners at the Divide"


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## welderguy (Apr 22, 2017)

Lol.
I love both of you guys and all our quirkinesses too.

None of us agree 100% on anything, I've learned that. But, wouldn't we have a boring world without our little harmless debates?

(I hate to admit it, but I even love bullet's cynicism)


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## bullethead (Apr 22, 2017)

Israel said:


> "If you cain't pick apart the werds, then ya just go on 'haid and pick apart the man, you gunna get to the truth quicker that ways, anyhow."
> Jeb Greesom from "Partners at the Divide"


Brother, I'd need an Enigma machine to decifer the words.

Occams razor


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## bullethead (Apr 22, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Lol.
> I love both of you guys and all our quirkinesses too.
> 
> None of us agree 100% on anything, I've learned that. But, wouldn't we have a boring world without our little harmless debates?
> ...


I do not dislike anyone here. 
I really wish I could have a debate with Izzy. A debate or plain old conversation would be a pleasant change.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 22, 2017)

Israel said:


> Since I am just beginning to learn the "no restriction" policy myself, it would be foolish to try and introduce it through any qualification, myself. But, you say, "I was once a Christian". So, forget about what you may (or even I may consider my stance!) regarding "being a christian" and what we may infer or imply of it in any application.
> 
> But...I find most "christian" people (presently self identifying...or presently _past_ identifying) have some sort of familiarity with the Bible. Usually (and often especially) with the part called the new testament.
> 
> ...


So I would like to respond but you don't make it easy 
I view most of your post as one would view the "old school" scratch paper we use to use to work out a math problem in long hand before a calculator did all the work- I know you remember. I do 
Its basically a recording of your own thought processes as you work on something you are trying to figure out.
But yes some of it can be thought inspiring. And really shouldn't that be the point of discussing here?
I can however respond to one or two things.


> But that how could any man, anywhere, at any time (I know some find my tendency to paint with a broad brush, sloppy, to say the least)...get outta "that boat"?


If you take all our own personal thought processes (see above) out of the equation you end up with this -
1. A list of religions and or gods that man has and does worship.
2 All of the people who worshipped these religions and gods believe(d) in their religions and gods as much as the next guy.
3. All of those people believe(d) their religion and god(s) were/are "real", "true" and a "fact".
4. Christianity and therefore Christians are on that list or to continue the analogy, "in that boat".
I decided to get out of that boat pending further review.
Seems reasonable to me. 


> Why the Jesus hubbub (_this Israel guy_ amongst others) always seems to be making?


Actually I DONT ask this question.
I believe Jesus (as we call him) actually existed and was most certainly a very inspirational figure.
And note - what I thought about Jesus was nowhere on the list of why I got out of the boat.


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## Israel (Apr 23, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> So I would like to respond but you don't make it easy
> I view most of your post as one would view the "old school" scratch paper we use to use to work out a math problem in long hand before a calculator did all the work- I know you remember. I do
> Its basically a recording of your own thought processes as you work on something you are trying to figure out.
> But yes some of it can be thought inspiring. And really shouldn't that be the point of discussing here?
> ...


If I say "bless you" for this, somehow I don't think you're offended. Maybe you can see a man who doesn't know how it works cog by cog but to at least this point...really doesn't know how to say to another a thing that could carry a gratitude so deeply felt.

I'll forgo trying to make a long explanation of the why and how I cannot do a thing that seemed to once come so easily. I can't see you as "out of the boat" in the sense I may think you imply. You are not "not like me"...as much as I am not "not like you".

It's more to the point of admitting my own being tricked by a cleverness I fell for...that somehow there was a something I could do...would do to show myself superior to other men. I remain a "sucker" for a pretty face, in the presence of smart people I try to show myself as smart, or smarter, in the presence of the "pious" I have been as unrelenting in my efforts to "outstrip". I can't seem to "not react" to what I notice.

When I look at the wallet...and it is empty...it provokes a thing. When I look at the soul...and it "feels" lonely, it provokes a thing. But I have more rarely ever asked "why do I even notice...what I notice?"

We dance, in that sense, to the rhythms of the music we hear. We tend ( do we?) to seek out "like rhythmed" dancers. We seem not able to maintain the dancing of a jig in a ballroom full of waltzers. For even the very moment we "notice" they are waltzers...the "jigger" is now subject to influence. 

I will leave the question of whether any observer can ever rightly judge "he continues to dance the jig now in rebellion" or "he must hear that jig music so intently, he cannot escape it, even though he sees waltzers all about...and everyone else is now telling him "they are playing Blue Danube...not Garyowen!"

I know it's a weak analogy.

The vampires never seem to dislike being vampires (except maybe that one Brad Pitt played)...but we, watching holler "no, don't open that window!" You'll be made into something "no longer like us"...even though the one on the other side of that window, waiting to get in is thinking "poor poor mortals, so ignorant of what they might have". Yeah, another poor analogy.

So we all argue "what is a man really?" Is he this..."plus that" or is he this..."minus that"? If he accounts for that is he defective man? If he doesn't allow for that...is he defective man?

For the man I am now...it's way too wearisome. I just see men...pretty much like me. But always something different, too.


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