# barrel weight/harmonic blancer



## Cknerr (Nov 16, 2009)

Has anyone used one and what do you think of it? Looking for opinions on just the adjustable weight only - no integral flash suppressor or muzzle brake (yet). Looking at one thing at a time.  Ba lancers are pretty much outlawed in most competition classes, so I don't have a lot of experience with them.

I know about the Boss system on A-bolts and other rifles. They really work well when adjusted correctly and that muzzle brake can make all the difference.

If it would help accuracy on my rifles, many customers I think would like one - or would you put up with that disk/cylinder stuck on the front of your barrel?

Another question I would like to add  - if you had a balancer on your barrel set up for a particular bullet weight - would you feel too restricted? You could use any bullet you wanted to as long as it was very close to the dialed in weight. 


Thanks in advance for your opinions,
Chris


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## ScottD (Nov 16, 2009)

how about this one?






its a 5.5oz weight  - out past the muzzle - brass sleeve with a rubber core on a threaded aluminum barrel attachment.

shot a teen agg with it Saturday 5 groups averaged .1965


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## ScottD (Nov 16, 2009)

to answer the other questions...........

I think that a "tuner" can help you dial in accuracy for a given velocity (rather that a given bullet weight).  But even the same bullet weight at different velocity will require adjustment.

After 2 years of testing - I think that a "tuner" will help tremendously on a production rifle.

My method with the tuner for competition was to find a setting that gave good accuracy - then make slight adjustments with the powder charge  to fine tune the load through the day.

For a pencil barrel rifle, a tuner could be less weight (probably 1oz) and doesn't need to be beyond the muzzle.  several tuners out now are nothing more than two threaded disks near the muzzle.

Tuners are now allowed in both NBRSA and IBS.  I think for a non competition rifle i would want a tuner that is barrel diameter out in front of the muzzle for a clean look.
maybe 1 oz.

New barrel will be sans tuner.  With a PPC I think that barrel weight is more valuable than a tuner.  I can always make a load that will shoot.

If i had to use factory ammo - definitely a tuner.


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## Cknerr (Nov 16, 2009)

now that is a bit on the extreme side!

Didn't know you could still use them in BR.  Good looking little critter, did you make it?

How much did it improve your groups?

Chris


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## Cknerr (Nov 16, 2009)

Thanks Scott,
That is what I was interested in hearing

Appreciate it,
Chris


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## ScottD (Nov 16, 2009)

Chris 

I built these from boat propeller shaft bushings - i turned them on a lathe and then pressed them onto an aluminum core.  Core and barrel is threaded at 20 TPI.  Weight is 5.5 oz and only 1/8 turn can make dramatic changes.

On a BR gun at 100 yards - 1/2 turn can move the POI on a 100 yard target as much a 3/4".


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## deadend (Nov 16, 2009)

It is sort of what you're talking about-I had good luck with my Mini-14/30's by installing a flash suppressor and tuning it weightwise.  One ranch rifle came from a 4" gun at 100 to a 1.75" gun just with the addition of a suppressor.  One Mini-30 didn't respond to it and another Mini-14 really tightened up its groups (which were pretty good to start with) after I started cutting some weight off the suppressor.  I was talking to a fellow on The High Road forum about it and got the idea.


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## Cknerr (Nov 17, 2009)

Thanks guys.
Looks like I am going to make some smaller ones for hunting rifles. 

Scott, 3/4" at 100yds?! BR barrels are really stiff to begin with. That is a bit surprising -almost a degree of deflection.

No one seems to mind the "can" on the end of their barrel, so I'll try to keep it minimal. Be fun to find out what happens with differant sized wieghts on a skinny hunting barrel. Now if I can attach one realiable without threading the barrel or marring the bluing ......hmmm

Thanks guys!
Chris


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## olchevy (Nov 18, 2009)

ScottD said:


> how about this one?



Is that like a leaf spring under the scope on the barrel?


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## ScottD (Nov 18, 2009)

Its kinda a spring.

Its a TSi scope mount - The 36x Leupold scope is "frozen", which means all the internal adjustments have been removed and filled with epoxy so that the scope is fixed.

The front base is slightly flexible and the rear base has adjustment wheels.  When the wheels are turned, the thin section of the front base bends enough to allow the scope to adjust.  The mount is always under tension (no springs) and therefor doesn't have the ability to move on it own.

The scope always holds POI.  When groups get down to the 1/8" size at 100 yards - one of the biggest limitations becomes the movement that can happen in an internally adjusted scope - Springs hold the erector tube inside of the scope tube and with each shot there is obviously a lot of vibration and shock.  Most scopes will hold up well and hold POI most of the time.  In Benchrest "most of the time" is not good enough.


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## ScottD (Nov 18, 2009)

OOPs - i think you may have been talking about the thin black strip attached to the barrel.

That is a "mirage shield".  It is nothing more that a thin strip of plastic attached to the barrel with velcro. As you shoot the barrel heats up.  This heat rises up in front of the scope and makes it difficult to see clearly.  Barrel heat mirage looks like the scope is out of focus - a little fuzzy.  The plastic strip helps keep the heat out of the field of view.

This is different that mirage you see when looking at a target.  That mirage is coming off the ground just in front of the actual target.  This mirage will make the target appear to move - some times as much as 1/2" of movement at 100 yards.  If you shoot one shot when it is cloudy (no mirage) and the next when it is sunny; the second shot will often hit higher on the target compared to the first shot.  This is because on the second shot you aimed at a target that appeared to be higher up because the heat (mirage) distorted the apparent position of what you aimed at.

The trick to shooting mirage is to aim at the target at its lowest position of movement. With a 36x scope the target will "wave" up and down maybe 1/2" as you watch it.  Aim at the lowest position and ignore the time when it is moving up.  Also - the mirage will tilt a little left or right as you watch it - that tells which direction the wind at the target is moving.

The hard part is, if you have calm wind and "smooth mirage" which is so consistent that the target "waves" upward but hangs there for long periods of time.  this will make you shoot vertical strings because the mirage is moving the target image slowly enough that you cannot tell its moving.


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## Cknerr (Nov 18, 2009)

Scott,
you forgot to mention something....
The magnification of that scope. 

It is likely in the mid 30's to mid 40's power. You will see a mirage coming from the barrel at that magnification. With the big barrels, there is plenty of residual heat coming off of it that doesn't dissipate between match rounds.

Chris

EDITED: oops, sorry, you did say what it was in a previous post.


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## rayjay (Nov 18, 2009)

My main focus lately is rimfire bbls and one of the ways you judge what is happening in the bore is 'slugging the bore'. I pull bullets from Eley Match EPS ammo and push them down the bore. You would be amazed at how changes in the OD of the bbl affect the bore. If you leave a torque shoulder on an otherwise straight bbl the bore will be noticably constricted there.

Having gained this experience I would NEVER thread the muzzle of a target rifle for a muzzle brake or a tuner or what ever. When you thread the bbl you will make the bore larger in that area. The crown is the last chance you have to send the bullet on an accurate path. The last thing you want is for the muzzle to be larger than the rest of the bore. For a top shooting rimfire you actually want some choke leading up to the muzzle.

The other thing I would never do is take a straight blank and turn it to some sort of taper [ well maybe a reverse taper, common in rimfire BR ]. The bore in this case would be tightest at the chamber and loosest at the muzzle.


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## ScottD (Nov 18, 2009)

Ray,

I have thought about this too.  What about threading the last inch - but also cutting an inch long false muzzle(recessed crown)

do you think that would solve both problems?

I have also wondered about my tuner - the way it tightens on the barrel is only in one direction - i always wondered if it was enough tension to deform the bore - out of round.

I guess its a mute point - this barrel has 2500 rounds on it - and  a threaded muzzle  - still it just shot its best(and my best agg ever)   .1956 AGG.  Funny part is that this barrel would have been replaced before this match if my barrel guy was in good health - with 2500 rounds, I had assumed it was toast.  Next barrel - no tuner.


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## rayjay (Nov 18, 2009)

On the rimfires we barely tighten the clamps because of bore distortion. I actually think that having some weight out at the end of the bbl helps them shoot better even if it's not adjustable. On the Metal Mayhem with the Hal Drake tuner I was going to leave it off to make weight but the gun seemed to shoot better with it on even though it probably wasn't dialed in.

My rimfires definitely shoot better with the tuner even before you start the final adjustments to get the last of the vertical out.

Sporter class RB BR rifles have bbls with an integral 'knob' on the end. Just a section of the blank left a much larger dia than the rest of the bbl. A good sporter will shoot right with a good unlimited rifle.


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## Cknerr (Nov 18, 2009)

With the bulges running down the barrel, harmonics and then the bullet, how much do you think they are upsetting the type of balancer you guys are using? 

If you made the whole thing out of something like sintered bronze - it is a little spongy/springy, think that would help or hinder? You could screw it on very tight - maybe sweat part of it?

Anyone looked into attaching a tuner the same way a keyless sheave is attached to a shaft? Might be able to get a pretty solid assembly that way.

Chris 


Chris


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## ScottD (Nov 18, 2009)

i think with the violence incured, a tuner has to be pretty well attached.

I'm not smart enough to figure out how - i'll leave that up to you guys.  But if you come up with an idea, let me know....i agree with what Ray says - the extra weight out past the muzzle is a help, even if not tuned.

but if i can tune using powder - i'll keep the extra barrel length and lose the tuner.

This last match i took a different approach than normal-----

since the barrel was already toast - i decided to lap the crown with 1200 paste and a hardened 1/2" ball chucked in a drill.

second - i set the tuner and never moved it - instead i tuned with the powder charge - on Saturday i started at 52 clicks and finished the day at 53.  Day two stayed at 53 until the last target - went to 52.5 clicks.

The 53 clicks on saturday afternoon shot four targets in the 1's and a small 3

Now if you guys can figure out a way to hang a 2-3 oz tuner past the muzzle that will stay on with out threading the barrel -let me know.

BTW - the gun is coming apart next week - going back to Kelblys to add right ejection micro port!  Still need to shoot faster.


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## rayjay (Nov 19, 2009)

You need to get some 24 cal lead bullets or a mold and do some slugging to feel what is happening after threading. On a HV bbl maybe the real fine pitch threads won't make a detectable difference.


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## olchevy (Nov 19, 2009)

ScottD said:


> OOPs - i think you may have been talking about the thin black strip attached to the barrel.
> 
> That is a "mirage shield".  It is nothing more that a thin strip of plastic attached to the barrel with velcro. As you shoot the barrel heats up.  This heat rises up in front of the scope and makes it difficult to see clearly.  Barrel heat mirage looks like the scope is out of focus - a little fuzzy.  The plastic strip helps keep the heat out of the field of view.
> 
> ...




hmm....makes sence, instead of epoxing an adjustable scope why not just start with a fixed power scope, our is there still to much "wiggle room" with those too?

Back in highschool I was on the rifle team and shot a decent amount of 300's with my average in the high 280's to low 290's, but i quit before the competitions started up, to my instructors great displease, because to me it felt as though it was greatly hindering my ability to shoot "real rifles"


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## rayjay (Nov 19, 2009)

Super Fudd and Heavy Fudd rf tuners. On the Super I made the threaded tuning sleeve lighter so maybe it will be less sensitive. On the Heavy I found some shaft collars that are a good fit. Many bbls want a heavier tuner than the std Fudd. I will post some pics of the RVA tuner one of these days.


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## rayjay (Nov 19, 2009)

olchevy said:


> hmm....makes sence, instead of epoxing an adjustable scope why not just start with a fixed power scope, our is there still to much "wiggle room" with those too?"



These are fixed power scopes. What gets locked is the windage and elevation adjustments, in other words the crosshair is locked dead in the center. Since the scope can no longer be used to alter the poi they have to make the scope mount adjustable. This set up is mostly used for group shooting where you rarely have the poa and poi be the same spot.


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## olchevy (Nov 20, 2009)

rayjay said:


> These are fixed power scopes. What gets locked is the windage and elevation adjustments, in other words the crosshair is locked dead in the center. Since the scope can no longer be used to alter the poi they have to make the scope mount adjustable. This set up is mostly used for group shooting where you rarely have the poa and poi be the same spot.



Thanks now I understand


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## Cknerr (Nov 20, 2009)

Rayjay,
That is some fancy jeweling on those tuners! nice touch. You obviously know your way around machinery.

Scott or Rayjay: Would the idea of how a keyless sheave is attached to a shaft work on for tuners? They sure can take some brutal punishment and most of the "meat" can be placed at the end of the barrel to resist expantion. Over hung loads are nothing new to these sheaves as well. 

Chris


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## rayjay (Nov 20, 2009)

Dude, $75 each used. I only did the shortening of the ring and added the shaft collars. Oh, and bored them to fit my bbls. I had 3 but Bob Bradshaw kidnapped one and paid me the ransom 

Wait till you see the RVA. 

I do have all the materials to make my own tuners, just waiting for all the planets to align: No rain for a couple of days so I can open the overhead door to vent fumes, relatively warm outside, head not hurting, neck not hurting


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