# Question about co-existing with other belief systems



## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2013)

I'm gonna try and start a thread that doesn't argue over morals or OC or whether or not the Bible is inspired.....maybe something we can just talk (type) about.....

In Christianity, there is a concept regarding not getting married, or becoming business partners, etc. with folks who do not believe like yourself.  In my personal life, I have found this to be a very good idea for many reasons, but primarily because when conflicts arise, there is no common basis to refer to in order to settle disputes.

For instance, one wants the kids in church and the other doesn't.  Or, one wants to support the adult child moving in with significant other, and the other adamantly opposes.

So, I figure I'd ask you guys....particularly the ones who are married to believers, or those who are in business with believers, how you get around those issues where you simply have nothing to agree on in order to resolve the conflict?  I know most of you have had to face this at some point, I know I did in my first marriage (I was the believer).

Additionally, do you think the concept is wise? I do based on my personal experiences.


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## bullethead (Jul 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I'm gonna try and start a thread that doesn't argue over morals or OC or whether or not the Bible is inspired.....maybe something we can just talk (type) about.....
> 
> In Christianity, there is a concept regarding not getting married, or becoming business partners, etc. with folks who do not believe like yourself.  In my personal life, I have found this to be a very good idea for many reasons, but primarily because when conflicts arise, there is no common basis to refer to in order to settle disputes.
> 
> ...



I just think people disagree no matter what religion or denomination they belong to. My Wife and all 3 of my boys attended Catholic school (their choice), The oldest 2 started out in public school and asked to go to private school with both graduating from Catholic High School and one (youngest) started at parochial school and switched to the public school in 4th grade. I viewed it as a parent...no other strings attached. I wanted my children to go where they were happy and their grades showed it.
My only words of wisdom were..." You can flunk out of school a lot cheaper in public school than you can in private school, I am not paying for your tuition if you do not have the grades." Solid B students all the way and Dean's list in College. Youngest guy is holding a B average in public high school and that went fram a C average to the B as soon as our insurance agent told him he could save $400 a year in car insurance for good grades. 
As parents we could not be happier.
Life is all about give and take. Compromises.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 19, 2013)

I think business partners is old news.. I would think that a lot of people would understand that was for a long gone society. Get a lawyer, agree on terms, conflicts are managed with a documented and enforceable agreement. 

I can definitely see how being married to a person of another belief system could have a potential for issues. My girlfriend is baptist, but not exactly practicing, so it's not a problem. If she decided to re-dedicate herself, I would think I'd be a problem for her. 

In either case, I think one thing that the bible says about decision making is to pray about it. Which I can see as a good thing in a way to make sure decisions aren't made hastily without putting in appropriate thought.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I just think people disagree no matter what religion or denomination they belong to. My Wife and all 3 of my boys attended Catholic school (their choice), The oldest 2 started out in public school and asked to go to private school with both graduating from Catholic High School and one (youngest) started at parochial school and switched to the public school in 4th grade. I viewed it as a parent...no other strings attached. I wanted my children to go where they were happy and their grades showed it.
> My only words of wisdom were..." You can flunk out of school a lot cheaper in public school than you can in private school, I am not paying for your tuition if you do not have the grades." Solid B students all the way and Dean's list in College. Youngest guy is holding a B average in public high school and that went fram a C average to the B as soon as our insurance agent told him he could save $400 a year in car insurance for good grades.
> As parents we could not be happier.
> Life is all about give and take. Compromises.



Good stuff.  Interesting that you didn't fight the Catholic school thing.

I put my kids in a private school for a better education, it is a Christian school.

However, it was private school that was the "straw that broke the camel's back" in my first marriage.  My son was 3, so we were looking into k-4's to put him in, and I suggested a few Christian programs locally.  After visiting one, my then wife called me the next morning on the way to work to tell me she was finished with that life.....she wanted nothing to do with it anymore. 

Lucky for me, she just gave me the kid without a fight.

Anyway, I always kind-of figured that my and her differences religiously had caused such a split that she was not comfortable "living a lie," if that makes any sense.

And I agree....life is a compromise, even amongst those of a like-mind.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Get a lawyer, agree on terms, conflicts are managed with a documented and enforceable agreement.



That's definitely one way of leveling the field between belief systems.  I never really thought about it applying in business terms, until I had a Christian friend open a medical practice with an atheist.  They seem to do fine, but I do remember my buddy being strongly warned against it.



TripleXBullies said:


> I can definitely see how being married to a person of another belief system could have a potential for issues. My girlfriend is baptist, but not exactly practicing, so it's not a problem. If she decided to re-dedicate herself, I would think I'd be a problem for her.



Just curious.....would it be a problem for you?  I mean, would you have a philosophical problem sharing life with somebody whom you felt believed in things that weren't true?



TripleXBullies said:


> In either case, I think one thing that the bible says about decision making is to pray about it. Which I can see as a good thing in a way to make sure decisions aren't made hastily without putting in appropriate thought.





I have said on here quite a bit that many of "the rules" make sense.  That is one of them, as well as this unequally yoked topic.  That is based on my experience.  My rush decisions lead to disasters (first marriage), and my well thought out decisions, which I pray about, seem to have better consequences (current marriage....so far  )


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## bullethead (Jul 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Good stuff.  Interesting that you didn't fight the Catholic school thing.
> 
> I put my kids in a private school for a better education, it is a Christian school.
> 
> ...



I have been with my wife since 1985, a month before I turned 16. I don't care how compatible two people are and if they like the same things, think alike, worship and dress the same way and hold the same views on everything. A relationship, whether it is for love, money, business or friendship,  is a constant work in progress and as soon as one stops working at it the relationship is done.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I have been with my wife since 1985, a month before I turned 16. I don't care how compatible two people are and if they like the same things, think alike, worship and dress the same way and hold the same views on everything. A relationship, whether it is for love, money, business or friendship,  is a constant work in progress and as soon as one stops working at it the relationship is done.



I absolutely agree to that. 

My current wife and I share beliefs, but our similarities stop there.  We are polar opposites on just about everything, have ZERO common interests.....but, we were friends first, and still are.  I genuinely enjoy her company.

As to my first wife, and the point of the thread, there were obstacles because of our differing beliefs.  I was either too young, or incapable, of over coming them.  In the end, my belief system was her primary reason given for her departure.  Incompatable.

So, how have you and your wife over come those areas where you both had "hills to die for" based on beliefs?  Or, have you avoided them through compromise?


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2013)

Interesting thing about my first amrriage ending, even though it had a lot to do with my faith, I am still not considered "leadership worthy" in many Christian circles because she left.  I eventually learned that I wanted nothing to do with church leadership (deacon, elder type stuff), but, it was a real sore spot for a very long time.....in between my two marriages is when I started really questioning faith at all.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Just curious.....would it be a problem for you?  I mean, would you have a philosophical problem sharing life with somebody whom you felt believed in things that weren't true?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Her re-dedicating would depend on her attitude about it all. We have talked about her feelings about our difference already and we're on a good page. Honestly, if she wanted to get serious about her faith, I would expect her to want to get away from me. I don't know what I'd think if she wanted to try to stay with me while doing the other... 

Taking time to think about decisions is almost always a good idea but of course our arguments over the power of prayer aren't going to get us anywhere. So we should agree to disagree up front.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Interesting thing about my first amrriage ending, even though it had a lot to do with my faith, I am still not considered "leadership worthy" in many Christian circles because she left.  I eventually learned that I wanted nothing to do with church leadership (deacon, elder type stuff), but, it was a real sore spot for a very long time.....in between my two marriages is when I started really questioning faith at all.



Hence, your scarlet letter... I wear my D with pride.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 19, 2013)

My wife and I are both Christians but our beliefs are not the same. I'm a littlle bit Country and my wife is a little bit Rock & Roll. My wife is a liberal democrat and I'm presently a Republican. We tend to disagree on a lot of issues. I would not like to be around  clones of me all of the time. We don't see it as a problem. We've been married thirty years. We've tried not to brainwash our own children but to be themselves and form their own views. 
It makes for interesting conversation.


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## hummdaddy (Jul 19, 2013)

You know what i believe and my wife is catholic,but we both agree we are entitled to our beliefs....neither one. Of us is pushing our belief on our son..through his on living and research he can find his way as he grows older


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## bullethead (Jul 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I absolutely agree to that.
> 
> My current wife and I share beliefs, but our similarities stop there.  We are polar opposites on just about everything, have ZERO common interests.....but, we were friends first, and still are.  I genuinely enjoy her company.
> 
> ...



We have learned the things that mean the most to each of us and respect each others choices. We each have one or two things that we don't even attempt to compromise on but do not try to sway the other into either. The rest is a mutual respect thing with compromising involved but after all these years it is second nature.
You might remember that my M-I-L put the hardcore hard-nosed believers on here in the amateur category. Family get togethers were ALWAYS interesting but in a respectful way.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Her re-dedicating would depend on her attitude about it all.



In the case of my first marriage, I was nowhere near a zealot.  I have always kind-a been a libertarian as far as my political views, I think it was more of the lifestyle that she was not real comfortable with, and the peope we were around.  She had zero friends.  Hanging out with Christians didn't help that.



TripleXBullies said:


> Taking time to think about decisions is almost always a good idea but of course our arguments over the power of prayer aren't going to get us anywhere. So we should agree to disagree up front.



Makes sense.  I think prayer works too.  I have met non-believers who think it works in the same way that meditation does also.  Doesn't mean they participate, jsut that some evidence exists to suggest that there can be a benefit, whether somebody hears it or not


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 19, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> My wife and I are both Christians but our beliefs are not the same. I'm a littlle bit Country and my wife is a little bit Rock & Roll. My wife is a liberal democrat and I'm presently a Republican. We tend to disagree on a lot of issues. I would not like to be around  clones of me all of the time. We don't see it as a problem. We've been married thirty years. We've tried not to brainwash our own children but to be themselves and form their own views.
> It makes for interesting conversation.




My parents didn't force me to be a christian. They weren't heavy handed about it at all, but the life I was born in to gave me no choice but to think it was truth from the very beginning. I had no choice but to believe it.... which imo is what you are trying NOT to do with other aspects of your children's lives.


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## hummdaddy (Jul 19, 2013)

But as far as disagreements we pretty much dont have any and we have been married9 years


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 19, 2013)

bullethead said:


> We have learned the things that mean the most to each of us and respect each others choices. We each have one or two things that we don't even attempt to compromise on but do not try to sway the other into either. The rest is a mutual respect thing with compromising involved but after all these years it is second nature.
> You might remember that my M-I-L put the hardcore hard-nosed believers on here in the amateur category. Family get togethers were ALWAYS interesting but in a respectful way.



My girlfriend hasn't told some of her family about me, but the ones who she has the most respect for helped her get to her decision that I was an ok dude. I think some of them would have a problem with me.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Hence, your scarlet letter... I wear my D with pride.



Absolutely!  Besides my kids, it was the best thing that ever happened to me 

What's funny, though, a long time ago, when I started going back to church after my divorce and consequent faith struggles, and re-discovering my faith, I went to a Church which had a lot of young folks my age. I had a t-shirt made with a huge red "D" on it.....it was kind-a my way of making fun of folks hwo would judge me.  I was over that junk, for sure.  People will judge for whatever reason, but I knew I had fought the good fight, and wasn't going to let some idealistic religious zealot think I cared what they thought of my life.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> My wife and I are both Christians but our beliefs are not the same. I'm a littlle bit Country and my wife is a little bit Rock & Roll. My wife is a liberal democrat and I'm presently a Republican. We tend to disagree on a lot of issues. I would not like to be around  clones of me all of the time. We don't see it as a problem. We've been married thirty years. We've tried not to brainwash our own children but to be themselves and form their own views.
> It makes for interesting conversation.



Religion and politics, man!  I think it would be harder to live with a liberal than it was trying to make a life with a person who held my faith as a negative.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 19, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> My parents didn't force me to be a christian. They weren't heavy handed about it at all, but the life I was born in to gave me no choice but to think it was truth from the very beginning. I had no choice but to believe it.... which imo is what you are trying NOT to do with other aspects of your children's lives.



True as most children of Christians won't become Muslims. Catholic parents don't have Protestant children. The best one yet is Elected parents always begat Elected children.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2013)

bullethead said:


> We have learned the things that mean the most to each of us and respect each others choices. We each have one or two things that we don't even attempt to compromise on but do not try to sway the other into either. The rest is a mutual respect thing with compromising involved but after all these years it is second nature.



Very cool.



bullethead said:


> You might remember that my M-I-L put the hardcore hard-nosed believers on here in the amateur category. Family get togethers were ALWAYS interesting but in a respectful way.



I do remember that.  And, before my second marriage, I did a lot of reading on marriage, as well as took multiple "pre-marriage" counseling courses, through church, private practices, etc.  3 in all......I was terrified of making the same mistake twice.

Anyway, in each different course we took, it was stated that in-laws can cause about as much problems as money.  Glad to hear you had a better experience.  I guess it works that way when everybody decides to be decent.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2013)

hummdaddy said:


> You know what i believe and my wife is catholic,but we both agree we are entitled to our beliefs....neither one. Of us is pushing our belief on our son..through his on living and research he can find his way as he grows older



I think raising kids with conflicting faith would be extremely difficult, because it is such a personal thing.  I guess it would be more consequential to a believer than a non-believer, though.

Are there any of you who would be absolutely opposed to your kids attending church if your GF, spouse, whatever insisted?


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> My girlfriend hasn't told some of her family about me, but the ones who she has the most respect for helped her get to her decision that I was an ok dude. I think some of them would have a problem with me.



Just curious, the ones who say your ok, are they Christians and aware of your beliefs? None of my business, but it would be interestin gif that's the case.

As a general rule, because of what I went through, I tell my friends that opposing faiths make for tough relationships, no matter how great the person is.  I guess it depends on how big a deal it is to the individuals involved.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 19, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> True as most children of Christians won't become Muslims. Catholic parents don't have Protestant children. The best one yet is Elected parents always begat Elected children.



I'm not familiar with Elected?


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I was terrified of making the same mistake twice.



I am not too worried about the making the same mistakes. I'm concerned with the ones I haven't considered...


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I think raising kids with conflicting faith would be extremely difficult, because it is such a personal thing.  I guess it would be more consequential to a believer than a non-believer, though.
> 
> Are there any of you who would be absolutely opposed to your kids attending church if your GF, spouse, whatever insisted?



My ex wife and and ex MIL take my daughter to church sometimes. I don't have a problem with it.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I am not too worried about the making the same mistakes. I'm concerned with the ones I haven't considered...



I got married way too young, to a person I didn't get along with, who had a tendency to make everything more than it had to be.  I was young, and stupid.

The 2nd time, I wasn't too young, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't still being stupid


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> My ex wife and and ex MIL take my daughter to church sometimes. I don't have a problem with it.



That's cool.  I think one of the posters on here got a bit disturbed at some of the stuff being taught to his young'un once.....don't think they have jumped in this thread yet.

Church can have benefits and negatives. For kids, the benefits can be relevant to social skills, availablity of extra-curricular activities, or stuff like that. Even though I am a Christian, I have real trouble going.  That is a whole 'nuther story, though.  My wife and kids go most Sundays.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I'm not familiar with Elected?



Predestination.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Just curious, the ones who say your ok, are they Christians and aware of your beliefs? None of my business, but it would be interestin gif that's the case.
> 
> As a general rule, because of what I went through, I tell my friends that opposing faiths make for tough relationships, no matter how great the person is.  I guess it depends on how big a deal it is to the individuals involved.



They are christians and they are ok with me. They aren't as traditional as my parents, or as I even was at one time.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> That's cool.  I think one of the posters on here got a bit disturbed at some of the stuff being taught to his young'un once.....don't think they have jumped in this thread yet.
> 
> Church can have benefits and negatives. For kids, the benefits can be relevant to social skills, availablity of extra-curricular activities, or stuff like that. Even though I am a Christian, I have real trouble going.  That is a whole 'nuther story, though.  My wife and kids go most Sundays.



I can see that from the little church she has been to, she believes it without hesitation. When she asks me, I tell it to her like it is....


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## hummdaddy (Jul 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I think raising kids with conflicting faith would be extremely difficult, because it is such a personal thing.  I guess it would be more consequential to a believer than a non-believer, though.
> 
> Are there any of you who would be absolutely opposed to your kids attending church if your GF, spouse, whatever insisted?



i have no problem with that !!! however if my wife gets to share her belief with catholic theory how it all went down,i get to share my theory from what i have seen and learned....when he is old enough he will hear all of it


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## gemcgrew (Jul 19, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I'm not familiar with Elected?


Neither is he.


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## bullethead (Jul 19, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> True as most children of Christians won't become Muslims. Catholic parents don't have Protestant children. The best one yet is Elected parents always begat Elected children.



I was baptized Catholic.  Attended Sunday School and Confirmed in a Protestant Lutheran Church. Married in a Catholic Church (wife Catholic), and graduated 2 sons from a Catholic High School and One of those guys is an 8th grade teacher in a Parochial school and freshman football coach at the High School he graduated from.

I feel like I could live in New York because if I can make here, I can make it anywhere.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Neither is he.



I would post a smiley, but am afraid you might respond with 'neither are you', and my feelings would be hurt.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I can see that from the little church she has been to, she believes it without hesitation. When she asks me, I tell it to her like it is....



In my custody agreement, we basically carved in stone that neither belief system was to be belittled by the other parent. I don't have such a dilemma with current wife, and raising kids together is much less complicated.

But, what will you do one day when your 'like it is' is in direct conflict with your ex's or future wife's....one of you will be saying the other is wrong.

I believe that unity is important, even with divorced parents, but that's just me.....and why I started the thread 'cause I am curious how you fellas approach this dilemma, as I have become convinced over the last few years that most of y'all are good and decent people.  You just don't believe like I do.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Jul 20, 2013)

My ex-wife was raised Catholic in France.  When she was about 7 years old, a girl the same age from a neighboring village was raped and killed.  Her priest told her that was God's will, she hates religion to this day.

I was raised in the Presbyterian church here in the US.  When I was about 12, I told my parents that I didn't believe and did not want to attend church anymore.  My mother was sad, but agreed that I was old enough to make my own decision.

As far as business, I don't care what you believe or don't, religiously.  The old rule of "Don't go into business with friends or family" is what I follow.  I've owned sailboats with friends that turned into a nightmare.

Keep true to your own beliefs and count every cent, my friend.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Interesting thing about my first amrriage ending, even though it had a lot to do with my faith, I am still not considered "leadership worthy" in many Christian circles because she left.  I eventually learned that I wanted nothing to do with church leadership (deacon, elder type stuff), but, it was a real sore spot for a very long time.....in between my two marriages is when I started really questioning faith at all.



My first marriage sounds very much like yours in many respects.  After the divorce I spent over 2 years doing nothing but drinking and fishing every single day.  I didn't date and didn't want anything to do with a woman, any woman.  One night deep into a bottle it occurred to me that I was slowly killing myself and it was only a matter of time before I was gonna wake up dead.  I sat down on a log and asked God, to either help me or kill me.  I hated life that I was ready for it to get better or get over.  One or the other.  I read a bit of the Bible that night and started making it a habit to do so drunk or not.  Over the course of the next year the drinking became less little by little and I started to kinda want to get back on Church but I had my reservations as to how I would be accepted.  I eventually went back to my old Church and started attending regularly.  Then I began to ask God if I should ever even think about marriage again, and I asked that if it was his will that I should re marry to give me someone who would bolster my faith and not tear it down or tear me away from it.  I didn't necessarily want to remarry or even date really.  It was just more of a question.

  I eventually met a lady that was exactly what I had asked God for.  There is no doubt that She is the one God chose for me.  I'm more convinced of it every day. She bolsters my faith, keeps me in line and is without a doubt my soulmate.  There is a world of difference in my first marriage which was secular from start to finish and this one.  

Three years ago we went on a mission trip and really were struck with a desire to make a stronger commitment and take on a stronger evangelistic role. When we got back God led us to start a church in a really bad local neighborhood and we did.  That was two years ago and I am currently acting in the pastors role yet not ordained.  Our parent church has been nothing but helpful and has even offered to ordain me despite both me and my wife having been previously married.  I'm just not ready for that yet, but my Pastor is wise enough and the Church is wise enough that he doesn't let legalism become a barrier to what God is trying to accomplish.


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## JB0704 (Jul 20, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> My first marriage sounds very much like yours in many respects.  After the divorce I spent over 2 years doing nothing but drinking and fishing every single day.  I didn't date and didn't want anything to do with a woman, any woman.  One night deep into a bottle it occurred to me that I was slowly killing myself and it was only a matter of time before I was gonna wake up dead.  I sat down on a log and asked God, to either help me or kill me.  I hated life that I was ready for it to get better or get over.  One or the other.  I read a bit of the Bible that night and started making it a habit to do so drunk or not.  Over the course of the next year the drinking became less little by little and I started to kinda want to get back on Church but I had my reservations as to how I would be accepted.  I eventually went back to my old Church and started attending regularly.  Then I began to ask God if I should ever even think about marriage again, and I asked that if it was his will that I should re marry to give me someone who would bolster my faith and not tear it down or tear me away from it.  I didn't necessarily want to remarry or even date really.  It was just more of a question.
> 
> I eventually met a lady that was exactly what I had asked God for.  There is no doubt that She is the one God chose for me.  I'm more convinced of it every day. She bolsters my faith, keeps me in line and is without a doubt my soulmate.  There is a world of difference in my first marriage which was secular from start to finish and this one.
> 
> Three years ago we went on a mission trip and really were struck with a desire to make a stronger commitment and take on a stronger evangelistic role. When we got back God led us to start a church in a really bad local neighborhood and we did.  That was two years ago and I am currently acting in the pastors role yet not ordained.  Our parent church has been nothing but helpful and has even offered to ordain me despite both me and my wife having been previously married.  I'm just not ready for that yet, but my Pastor is wise enough and the Church is wise enough that he doesn't let legalism become a barrier to what God is trying to accomplish.



Great story, thanks for sharing.  I'm on an iPhone this morning so I can't reply with a whole lot, I will when I get a chance.  But, I do want to say that our stories have more in common than you think......my 'coming to Jesus' moment was a drunken realization as well, and I was a drunk.  Additionally, once I made up my mind to straighten myself out, I swore off women for a few years myself.  It was a very healthy choice, and one that allowed me to be where I am today.

But, I'm not a preacher, and surprised to learn that about you, good stuff SFD.


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## JB0704 (Jul 20, 2013)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> My ex-wife was raised Catholic in France.  When she was about 7 years old, a girl the same age from a neighboring village was raped and killed.  Her priest told her that was God's will, she hates religion to this day.



I don't blame her for that. That's horrible.



			
				dr strangelove said:
			
		

> As far as business, I don't care what you believe or don't, religiously.  The old rule of "Don't go into business with friends or family" is what I follow.  I've owned sailboats with friends that turned into a nightmare.



That is a good rule, and one I follow myself.  Unrelated, I also have a personal rule that I never loan anything I can't afford to lose.  That way, I don't get upset when it isn't repaid.  It has saved me some heartache.



			
				dr strangelove said:
			
		

> Keep true to your own beliefs and count every cent, my friend.





I do have some questions about your folks letting you quit church at 12.  If you don't mind, did they remain religious? Just curious.  A primary motivator for me to attend church would be the benefits my kids would experience, as stated to 3x previously.


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## hummdaddy (Jul 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> In my custody agreement, we basically carved in stone that neither belief system was to be belittled by the other parent. I don't have such a dilemma with current wife, and raising kids together is much less complicated.
> 
> But, what will you do one day when your 'like it is' is in direct conflict with your ex's or future wife's....one of you will be saying the other is wrong.
> 
> I believe that unity is important, even with divorced parents, but that's just me.....and why I started the thread 'cause I am curious how you fellas approach this dilemma, as I have become convinced over the last few years that most of y'all are good and decent people.  You just don't believe like I do.


how can either of us be wrong or right when its just a theory that man came up with...nobody knows the absolute truth ...


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## JB0704 (Jul 20, 2013)

hummdaddy said:


> how can either of us be wrong or right when its just a theory that man came up with...nobody knows the absolute truth ...



Without starting a debate (I really want to try to keep this thread civil), I would say that what is being said is the matter at hand.  

Parent 1 says Christianity is the way.
Parent 2 says 'there might not be a god.'

From the kid's perspective, somebody is wrong, and that's the point I was making.  Nothing more


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## hummdaddy (Jul 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Without starting a debate (I really want to try to keep this thread civil), I would say that what is being said is the matter at hand.
> 
> Parent 1 says Christianity is the way.
> Parent 2 says 'there might not be a god.'
> ...



in my case two different perceptions of god


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## ambush80 (Jul 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Without starting a debate (I really want to try to keep this thread civil), I would say that what is being said is the matter at hand.
> 
> Parent 1 says Christianity is the way.
> Parent 2 says 'there might not be a god.'
> ...



Parent 2's 'might' excuses them from being wrong.  

Parent 1 will have to explain how they are so certain.


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## JB0704 (Jul 20, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Parent 2's 'might' excuses them from being wrong.
> 
> Parent 1 will have to explain how they are so certain.



Lets try again.....and who is right and wrong is irrelevant to the discussion if we are talking about conflicting beliefs raising kids together...  

Parent 1: there is no god
Parent 2: there is a god

One is wrong, the other, teaching their beliefs, puts the opposing parent in a predicament.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 21, 2013)

I think the issue with regards to a marriage, business venture, etc is integrity.  Going to a church certainly doesn't guaranteed that, but it sure makes it more likely.


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## ambush80 (Jul 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Lets try again.....and who is right and wrong is irrelevant to the discussion if we are talking about conflicting beliefs raising kids together...
> 
> Parent 1: there is no god
> Parent 2: there is a god
> ...



The lesson for the child is: people will have different opinions/beliefs.  

I'm lucky that my wife and I share a similar level of cynical agnosticism.  We both believe that religions were made by men and as so are inherently flawed.  Our daughter goes to church sometimes but I make sure to debrief her afterwards.

I didn't marry my last girlfriend mostly because her family was very religious, and she was too short.


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## bullethead (Jul 21, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I think the issue with regards to a marriage, business venture, etc is integrity.  Going to a church certainly doesn't guaranteed that, but it sure makes it more likely.



Doubtful
The pews are full of, swindlers, adulterers,back-stabbers, embezzlers, shady used car salesman and dope sellers/users etc.. If anything they are better at putting on the fake Sunday act and making it seem like nothing is going on, all the while talking about and pointing their fingers at someone else for doing the same things.
You will have the same percentage of those types in a congregation as there are out in society. 
I don't think you know your congregation as well as you think you do.

I would love to know why you feel confident in making the statement that integrity is more likely to be found within a church.


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## JB0704 (Jul 21, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> The lesson for the child is: people will have different opinions/beliefs.



Yes, in time, that is a good lesson for everybody.  Until then, it seems it could cause an issue with one of the two.  



			
				ambush80 said:
			
		

> I'm lucky that my wife and I share a similar level of cynical agnosticism.  We both believe that religions were made by men and as so are inherently flawed.  Our daughter goes to church sometimes but I make sure to debrief her afterwards.



It seems there are several on here who have been able to overcome the obstacle of contradicting belief systems.  Which is cool.  I know that, like you, my life is easier because my current wife and I have similar beliefs.  The difference between she and I is that she approaches her faith in a very simple way, doesn't over-think it, and just trusts god.  I over-analyze everything.....and tend to make it complicated.  But, we agree on the basics, and the difference is in the approach.



			
				ambush80 said:
			
		

> I didn't marry my last girlfriend mostly because her family was very religious, and she was too short.



If you are not religious, and they were not able to be decent about it, then you probably made a good call.

As far as short goes.....I'm 6'2", and my wife is 5' even.  I was more interested in how much we enjoyed each other's company, so I didn't let that scare me off.


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## JB0704 (Jul 21, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Doubtful
> The pews are full of, swindlers, adulterers,back-stabbers, embezzlers, shady used car salesman and dope sellers/users etc.. If anything they are better at putting on the fake Sunday act and making it seem like nothing is going on, all the while talking about and pointing their fingers at someone else for doing the same things.
> You will have the same percentage of those types in a congregation as there are out in society.
> I don't think you know your congregation as well as you think you do.
> ...



I recently asked my wife if she had ever honestly weighed the positive results of church against the negative results, she had not.  My life experience leads me to agree with your conclusion....people are people everywhere, even in church.

I can't answer for SFD, and I hope the thread doesn't turn into a debate.  But, the belief amongst Christians is that our faith teaches, or should teach, us to be honest, humble, hard-working citizens who are good to others and help the needy.  It doesn't always work out that way, and people tend to let religion get in the way of faith, and then our opinions become more important than our duty ( listed above).  Hope that makes some sense.

I don't think we are inherently better than people of any other system, which is to say that calling oneself a Christian doesn't mean you are, or act like one.  I do think our teachings should lead us to be good employees and neighbors.  I wish it worked that way more often.


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## hummdaddy (Jul 21, 2013)

I dont get where one is arrogant enough to think they are right when nobody knows the truth


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## JB0704 (Jul 21, 2013)

hummdaddy said:


> I dont get where one is arrogant enough to think they are right when nobody knows the truth



I really would prefer this thread not go that direction.


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## hummdaddy (Jul 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I really would prefer this thread not go that direction.



You asked where one parent thought one way and that wa how it was gonna be


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## hummdaddy (Jul 21, 2013)

I think of a different god than my wife,but i think of a creator


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## bullethead (Jul 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I recently asked my wife if she had ever honestly weighed the positive results of church against the negative results, she had not.  My life experience leads me to agree with your conclusion....people are people everywhere, even in church.
> 
> I can't answer for SFD, and I hope the thread doesn't turn into a debate.  But, the belief amongst Christians is that our faith teaches, or should teach, us to be honest, humble, hard-working citizens who are good to others and help the needy.  It doesn't always work out that way, and people tend to let religion get in the way of faith, and then our opinions become more important than our duty ( listed above).  Hope that makes some sense.
> 
> I don't think we are inherently better than people of any other system, which is to say that calling oneself a Christian doesn't mean you are, or act like one.  I do think our teachings should lead us to be good employees and neighbors.  I wish it worked that way more often.



JB, I don't know many main stream religions that pride themselves on being thugs, murderers, rapists, rip-off artists, adulterers, embezzlers, and such. It is just the truth of the matter is that society is filled with those people and among other places, they go to church too.

Unfortunately the core teachings rarely even get followed by the people writing those teachings down. And church is a way for many to act as they wish all week and pretend to make up for it on Sunday. Organized religion, in my opinion, seems to bring the best of the worst together because they feel they need to somehow purge themselves from their usual daily actions.


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## ambush80 (Jul 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Yes, in time, that is a good lesson for everybody.  Until then, it seems it could cause an issue with one of the two.



When I was in grade school they taught us about atoms.  They used styrofoam balls and wooden sticks to represent atomic particles and bonds.  Later I learned that atoms are not really that way.

There was a point when my wife and I talked about whether or not we should tell our daughter about god/devil, good/evil, as a  way to differentiate good behaviour from bad.  We recognized the damage that those notions had on us and decided to simply, if not laboriously, tell her why some behaviors are preferred and beneficial and others are not.

I haven't discussed atoms with her but I don't imagine there will be any sticks and balls involved.




JB0704 said:


> It seems there are several on here who have been able to overcome the obstacle of contradicting belief systems.  Which is cool.  I know that, like you, my life is easier because my current wife and I have similar beliefs.  The difference between she and I is that she approaches her faith in a very simple way, doesn't over-think it, and just trusts god.  I over-analyze everything.....and tend to make it complicated.  But, we agree on the basics, and the difference is in the approach.
> 
> If you are not religious, and they were not able to be decent about it, then you probably made a good call.
> 
> As far as short goes.....I'm 6'2", and my wife is 5' even.  I was more interested in how much we enjoyed each other's company, so I didn't let that scare me off.



My potential in laws were kind of old school, Southern, Alabama Baptists.  

She was 5'6".  Just below the cut off.  I'm trying to breed some genius athletes.


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## hummdaddy (Jul 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I really would prefer this thread not go that direction.



i don't understand this is the subject at hand...one thinks that it knows better than the other

when nobody knows the absolute truth


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## ambush80 (Jul 21, 2013)

hummdaddy said:


> i don't understand this is the subject at hand...one thinks that it knows better than the other
> 
> when nobody knows the absolute truth



That's one way of looking at it.  

Now, is there a way to get along?  That's what I think JB wants to talk about.

My wife's parent are Christians, very liberal Unitarians.  We've all 'kind of' talked about religion but they are very non confrontational so we usually just agree to disagree.

I could see being married to a deist.  It would be kind of cool to hear their take on everyday situations.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 21, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I'm trying to breed some genius athletes.


So the burden is on your wife and disproportionately so?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 21, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Doubtful
> The pews are full of, swindlers, adulterers,back-stabbers, embezzlers, shady used car salesman and dope sellers/users etc.. If anything they are better at putting on the fake Sunday act and making it seem like nothing is going on, all the while talking about and pointing their fingers at someone else for doing the same things.
> You will have the same percentage of those types in a congregation as there are out in society.
> I don't think you know your congregation as well as you think you do.
> ...



I won't say there are not Churches like you describe, but that certainly doesn't describe my church and while I may not know the congregation as well as I think I do, I certainly know it better than you.  The truth is all churches are comprised of people with different levels of commitment to following Christ.  The continuum ranges from those who come solely as a social statement to those who fervently try to model their lives after Christ example.
That is why I say integrity is more likely to be found in a church.  There are at least some present who value integrity.  You cannot be certain of that in various other groups.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Jul 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:
			
		

> I do have some questions about your folks letting you quit church at 12. If you don't mind, did they remain religious? Just curious. A primary motivator for me to attend church would be the benefits my kids would experience, as stated to 3x previously.



They did remain religious and have grown more so over the years.  They have retired back to our hometown and are very active in the Presbyterian we attended when I was a child.  One of the reasons they are members of that particular church is because it is very active with programs assisting those in need in their community.  They attended Sunday services when not traveling and volunteer with various programs through the week.

My parents never have tried to control my life other than to provide a loving, stable home and being good examples.  I was never pushed into sports, or whatever - if I wanted to play, I did, if I didn't, it was no big deal, though I'm sure my dad would have loved to see my brother and I play football.  They were much more interested in seeing to our education and that we had a broad variety of experiences. I had been in every state on the eastern seaboard and Canada by the time I was 14, no small feat for a middle class family from Western North Carolina in the 70's and 80's.  

When I was about 12, I realized I didn't believe the things I was being taught in church.  I presented the same argument then as I do in this forum today to my parents.  My mother said that she hoped that I would change my mind as I grew older, but that she respected my decision. 

A couple of years ago, I dated a woman whom I've known since our grade school days.  She's a "Sunday Morning Baptist", and has two young daughters.  They occasionally went to church, and she was surprised that I would go with them.  I told her I felt it was important that they learn about the different religions to be able to make their own mind up about their beliefs as they grew older.  Plus, a little church never hurt anybody.  

Answering the original question, I don't specifically seek non-believers to date, but the rabid believers tend to self-select out.  I could probably be married to a "Sunday Morning Baptist", but it wouldn't be fair for either party for me to marry/date a woman who wanted religion to play a major role in her life.

Anyone know a forty year old non-believing female with no kids?


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## hummdaddy (Jul 21, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I won't say there are not Churches like you describe, but that certainly doesn't describe my church and while I may not know the congregation as well as I think I do, I certainly know it better than you.  The truth is all churches are comprised of people with different levels of commitment to following Christ.  The continuum ranges from those who come solely as a social statement to those who fervently try to model their lives after Christ example.
> That is why I say integrity is more likely to be found in a church.  There are at least some present who value integrity.  You cannot be certain of that in various other groups.



i don't put myself in a group...i worry about my youngin and myself,the wife is steadfast out here in the world herself,but if she needs my help i will be there for anything and she is there for me....we are the group


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## JB0704 (Jul 21, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Now, is there a way to get along?  That's what I think JB wants to talk about.



Yep.



			
				ambush80 said:
			
		

> My wife's parent are Christians, very liberal Unitarians.  We've all 'kind of' talked about religion but they are very non confrontational so we usually just agree to disagree.



My current in-laws are Methodists, but they are very good at having respectful discussions with different beliefs.  There is an agnostic in that family, who is treated with a lot of respect and courtesy when th topic comes up, but I do think that individual feels judged. 

My own family, on the other hand, will turn everything into a heated debate   I guess it all depends on how decent folks are willing to be.


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## hummdaddy (Jul 21, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> That's one way of looking at it.
> 
> Now, is there a way to get along?  That's what I think JB wants to talk about..



yeah, don't think one's better than the other how many times and ways i got to put it... it's called open minded people


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## bullethead (Jul 21, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I won't say there are not Churches like you describe, but that certainly doesn't describe my church and while I may not know the congregation as well as I think I do, I certainly know it better than you.  The truth is all churches are comprised of people with different levels of commitment to following Christ.  The continuum ranges from those who come solely as a social statement to those who fervently try to model their lives after Christ example.
> That is why I say integrity is more likely to be found in a church.  There are at least some present who value integrity.  You cannot be certain of that in various other groups.



I have a solid feeling for what you are trying to say and I realize that a congregation is a small representation of society. It is what people do outside of church that is beyond your observation. Generally people are on their best behavior in church but the people that attend church range in percentages of integrity,morals etc as the percentage of individuals outside of church.
The percentage remains close to the same wherever a group of people gather whether it is a town, neighborhood,Church, Lions club meeting, PTO, or parents in the Little League stands.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 22, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> In my custody agreement, we basically carved in stone that neither belief system was to be belittled by the other parent. I don't have such a dilemma with current wife, and raising kids together is much less complicated.
> 
> But, what will you do one day when your 'like it is' is in direct conflict with your ex's or future wife's....one of you will be saying the other is wrong.
> 
> I believe that unity is important, even with divorced parents, but that's just me.....and why I started the thread 'cause I am curious how you fellas approach this dilemma, as I have become convinced over the last few years that most of y'all are good and decent people.  You just don't believe like I do.



I don't belittle what she hears. I just make sure she understands what they say is by no means truth, but opinion.


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## JB0704 (Jul 22, 2013)

bullethead said:


> JB, I don't know many main stream religions that pride themselves on being thugs, murderers, rapists, rip-off artists, adulterers, embezzlers, and such.



Neither do I.  So, it should not come as a surprise when a person of faith will see an advantage to attending church....that's the only point I was making, I wasn't trying to debate the merit of the statement (we can do that on another thread).



bullethead said:


> It is just the truth of the matter is that society is filled with those people and among other places, they go to church too.



I agree.




bullethead said:


> Unfortunately the core teachings rarely even get followed by the people writing those teachings down. And church is a way for many to act as they wish all week and pretend to make up for it on Sunday.



Yes.  However, you are discussing the individual, and not the nature of the lesson.  Again, that's all I was discussing.  My issues with religion are well documented on this forum.



bullethead said:


> Organized religion, in my opinion, seems to bring the best of the worst together because they feel they need to somehow purge themselves from their usual daily actions.



Ok.  From your previous posts, it seems you raised your kids in an environment where they had some level of exposure to organized religion through your wife.  Given the above statement, did you have concern over the exposure, or, did you find a way to present your views to give balance.

It sounds like some of the AA's on here have no problem with their kids being exposed to alternative systems.  That is a bit different from Christian environments, where we tend to "shelter" our kids.....an example would be keeping them away from learning about evolution.  Personally, I don't mind my kids hearing about whatever is out there....I know that I also have the opportunity to present my case, and why I "have hope."


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## JB0704 (Jul 22, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I don't belittle what she hears. I just make sure she understands what they say is truth, is by no  means truth, but opinion.



I understand.  I think all of us who have beliefs want, on some level, to pass those beliefs along.  It is a priviledge of parenting.

In y'alls case, I think that translates to passing along an open mind.  In our case, it translates as passing along a specific faith.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 22, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> IGoing to a church certainly doesn't guaranteed that, but it sure makes it more likely.



Going to church doesn't mean a thing about integrity...........


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## bullethead (Jul 22, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Neither do I.  So, it should not come as a surprise when a person of faith will see an advantage to attending church....that's the only point I was making, I wasn't trying to debate the merit of the statement (we can do that on another thread).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I had/have no concern over exposure to organized religion for my kids. I went through it for 20 years myself and I know my Sons are level headed enough to take in all information and form an opinion based off of their experiences. I would never shelter them from anything like that because I think that leads to a big shock down the road. Open and honest is the way we conduct ourselves and when asked about my opinion it is given.


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## JB0704 (Jul 22, 2013)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> Answering the original question, I don't specifically seek non-believers to date, but the rabid believers tend to self-select out.



When I was a single Dad, I faced an interesting situation......the "heathen" girls viewed my kid, and the fact that I had the gumption to take on that responsibility, as a plus.  The "Christian" girls, for the most part, viewed my kid as a negative.....refer back the "scarlet letter."

As a rule, I never let any of them near my kid.  The only woman who spent time with him was the woman I eventually married.  She was a rare exception being a Christian lady who didn't scare off at the fact that I had a young'un.


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## JB0704 (Jul 22, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I had/have no concern over exposure to organized religion for my kids. I went through it for 20 years myself and I know my Sons are level headed enough to take in all information and form an opinion based off of their experiences. I would never shelter them from anything like that because I think that leads to a big shock down the road. Open and honest is the way we conduct ourselves and when asked about my opinion it is given.



Sounds great, man.  I was raised in a very strict religious environment, where there was no discussion.  Opinions were not solicited, or tolerated relevant to anything, not just religion.

My son is old enough now where I tell him he is alsways allowed to "discuss," and ask questions.  I just don't tolerate arguing and attitude.  This is generally not about religion, though......that kid is a zealot  I always say that he is rebelling against me by being "good."


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 22, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I won't say there are not Churches like you describe, but that certainly doesn't describe my church and while I may not know the congregation as well as I think I do, I certainly know it better than you.  The truth is all churches are comprised of people with different levels of commitment to following Christ.  The continuum ranges from those who come solely as a social statement to those who fervently try to model their lives after Christ example.
> That is why I say integrity is more likely to be found in a church.  There are at least some present who value integrity.  You cannot be certain of that in various other groups.



Continuously off the deep end...


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## JB0704 (Jul 22, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Continuously off the deep end...



Perhaps, also a decent topic for another thread


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## ted_BSR (Jul 26, 2013)

I have been on both sides of the fence as far as marriage is concerned. A non-Christian, and a Christian. The first one was a big mistake. I could not ever again align my life with someone who did not have the same fundamental beliefs as I have. Bad juju. How can you discuss decisions about your family, and come to agreements about such things with someone who has a fundamental difference of opinion of the way the world works? You could call it comprise, I call it lies. One or the other has to forsake their beliefs.

As for business, it is the same deal. Customers are customers, but partners must have the same fundamental beliefs.


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## bullethead (Jul 27, 2013)

ted_BSR said:


> I have been on both sides of the fence as far as marriage is concerned. A non-Christian, and a Christian. The first one was a big mistake. I could not ever again align my life with someone who did not have the same fundamental beliefs as I have. Bad juju. How can you discuss decisions about your family, and come to agreements about such things with someone who has a fundamental difference of opinion of the way the world works? You could call it comprise, I call it lies. One or the other has to forsake their beliefs.
> 
> As for business, it is the same deal. Customers are customers, but partners must have the same fundamental beliefs.



And yet some marriages and business partners excel despite the lies.


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## ted_BSR (Jul 27, 2013)

bullethead said:


> And yet some marriages and business partners excel despite the lies.



I have no idea what you are talking about. I was expressing my opinion, not making a blanket statement about how every situation works out. Some of those arrangements may work out, but I would never do it again.

I guess we should define excel now...


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## JB0704 (Jul 27, 2013)

ted_BSR said:


> .... but I would never do it again.



Me either.  I have articulated what a disaster it was for me.  But, I think that some folks find a way to live together even with their differences.  It would be some very hard work, and both parties would have to be very reasonable about it, and be decent to each other.  After reading through a lot of the posts in this thread, it seems a few have figured it out.  

They might not have to compromise their beliefs, but would have to limit the "hills to die for" to a very few things.


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## bullethead (Jul 27, 2013)

ted_BSR said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about. I was expressing my opinion, not making a blanket statement about how every situation works out. Some of those arrangements may work out, but I would never do it again.
> 
> I guess we should define excel now...



Your post didn't read that way. Sorry but the You and Yours had me thinking in a blanket way.


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## ted_BSR (Jul 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Your post didn't read that way. Sorry but the You and Yours had me thinking in a blanket way.



Sorry if I was unclear.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 29, 2013)

delete...


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## JB0704 (Jul 29, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> delete...


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 29, 2013)

Unnecessary... sorry.


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