# Born again at salvation or resurrection?



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2015)

John 3:5-6
Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

According to these verses when does the Spirit give birth to spirit? Conversion or resurrection?

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

When was Jesus made a quickening spirit? Resurrection?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2015)

Is accepting Jesus as our Savior the same as being "born again?"

I don't think so. When was Jesus "born again?"


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is accepting Jesus as our Savior the same as being "born again?"
> 
> I don't think so. When was Jesus "born again?"



Art! your trying too hard. Jesus was never born again because He is God and never fell from grace.... Him being it.

The Spirit gives a born again spirit at baptism or conversion... or ...baptism. The born again spirit is not given at resurrection.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Art! your trying too hard. Jesus was never born again because He is God and never fell from grace.... Him being it.
> 
> The Spirit gives a born again spirit at baptism or conversion... or ...baptism. The born again spirit is not given at resurrection.



Read again what Jesus said:
Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Does anything not apply to Jesus the man that applies to me? Can you think of anything Jesus didn't take part in to get to the Kingdom that I'll have to take part in? 
Was he born of water and Spirit? Did he die a physical death? Did he take on sin? Did he resurrect? Did he ascend to Heaven to be next to God?

Will we not do all of the same? Will we not rule with Jesus?
Will we not be co-heirs with Christ?

Now I'm not saying I'm even close to being like Jesus and I didn't die for the world. We only share a Father by my adoption, not Jesus' adoption. His Father was God. The fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus. I've already mentioned this difference. I know of differences but I can't think of any human thing we do or have done that Jesus didn't go through as a human. Maybe you can think of one. What about human requirements placed on us by God? I don't mean requirements just for salvation but to include those? Obedience, believing, faith, prayer, worship, baptism, helping others, love, and forgiveness?
Jesus did all of those. Man, I wish I was even just a little bit as good at forgiving others as Jesus is.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Art! your trying too hard. Jesus was never born again because He is God and never fell from grace.... Him being it.
> 
> The Spirit gives a born again spirit at baptism or conversion... or ...baptism. The born again spirit is not given at resurrection.



But in a way he was born again. It was at his resurrection.
He was a natural man born of water and then reborn a spiritual man at his resurrection. This is when we are born of the Spirit. These verses pertain to the resurrection. When we become a spirit, after the natural born of water birth:

44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is accepting Jesus as our Savior the same as being "born again?"
> 
> I don't think so. When was Jesus "born again?"



Question 1. Yes
Question 2. Gordon answered it here: Jesus was never born again because He is God and never fell from grace.... Him being it.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> But in a way he was born again. It was at his resurrection.
> He was a natural man born of water and then reborn a spiritual man at his resurrection. This is when we are born of the Spirit. These verses pertain to the resurrection. When we become a spirit, after the natural born of water birth:
> 
> 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.




 What natural man has a virgin mother?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2015)

Maybe, just maybe even though Jesus was 100% God, he was 100% man. I'm not saying Jesus needed to be baptized for his sin but he did need to die for our sin. He was baptized and experienced everything we go through including being born of water and spirit.
Let's get past when Jesus became a Life giving Spirit.

I'm asking when do we become spirits? Doesn't this happen after the natural man dies and resurrects? We become spirits? Isn't this the actual rebirth?

Isn't this when Jesus became a life giving Spirit?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> What natural man has a virgin mother?



What natural man was created from dust?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2015)

44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Was Jesus not born of water? Are you trying to tell me he wasn't a human? Didn't he become a life giving Spirit at his resurrection?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
> 
> Was Jesus not born of water? Are you trying to tell me he wasn't a human? Didn't he become a life giving Spirit at his resurrection?



What if we are a natural man..of the dust of this earth, but within us is a soul, and upon conversion this soul becomes an everlasting life, that upon death of the natural man, goes to be with the Father? Thats the way I see it.


----------



## Big7 (Jan 1, 2015)

You are only born once.

When yo' mama squeezed you out.

For 1600 + years you were baptized as an infant
to erase the stain of original sin.

Right up to the Reformation. Then "somebody"
MADE UP age of reason, which is heretical . 

Baptism is a one time deal.

Every time you join a "different" church and get baptized
"again" that is heretical too..

God wishes for the day of 1 CORINTHIANS

10
I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 
that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be
 no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.

11
For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are rivalries among you.

Unless you are mentally challenged, God gave YOU a MIND and FREE WILL... 

The rest is up to you. 

Yeah.. I taught the class.. A few times.

OK RJ, I'm waiting on the hammer...


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2015)

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

We discussed their differences on the other thread but related to this discussion, aren't they both "men?"
One was created from dust by whom?
One was of Heaven by whom?
One became a living soul and one became a life giving spirit.

I think either way they have some differences and some likenesses.

I was only trying to show or ask on this thread, when do we become born again spirits? Just us humans?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2015)

Big7 said:


> You are only born once.
> 
> When yo' mama squeezed you out.
> 
> ...



Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

When is a person born of the Spirit?

44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

When does this raising take place?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2015)

John 3:3  You can’t “see” the kingdom of God until born again.

John 3:5  You can’t “enter” the kingdom of God until born of the Spirit.

I Cor. 15:50  Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

It's all about entering the Kingdom of God. Right now we are in the flesh.


----------



## Big7 (Jan 1, 2015)

Baptism, be at as an infant or when you "see the light"

If you or I were not baptized, do you know I could baptize 
you or you me?

In the name of The Father and The Son and The Holy Sprit.

No such thing as "holy ghost", that's a product of
"The Reformation" too....

Just so you know, my Daddy is non denominational Christian.
I'm sure as anyone can be he's not going to He11.

Faith without works is DEAD.
He has plenty faith and plenty works.

He and my sweet Mama had to go through
Catholic protocol to even marry.
53 years and counting.

As I have no angst against Protestants, except maybe
a few "hard core bible thumpers" that I see at the liquor store
after their version of the sermon, I try and often fail
to walk in the footsteps of our Good Lord. 

Brothers and Sisters in Christ are good with me.

Yeah... I got some Baptist wabbit huntin' buddies.

And.... The Bible IS NOT for self interpretation.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
> 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
> 
> When is a person born of the Spirit?
> ...




The raising of the spiritual body will be at the resurrection. Yes. I get you now. This is what Paul says.

But that is not the same as being born of the Spirit. One is born again spiritually through Baptism as this renews the spirit of our fallen soul, which soul is our present body and spirit--which is what Jesus says "... the Spirit gives birth to spirit."


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 3:3  You can’t “see” the kingdom of God until born again.
> 
> John 3:5  You can’t “enter” the kingdom of God until born of the Spirit.
> 
> ...



The kingdom Jesus speaks about is here and now.... It is a spiritual kingdom and that is why flesh and blood cannot inherit it. It is not a kingdom with a physical nature, although it operates in the world and does shape the world.

So yes you have to be born again to see the kingdom. The folk that are not redeemed and who do not avail themselves of the ministry of the Holy Spirit, have no vantage point to it, simply. They cannot view it because the spirit part of their souls is no sympathetic to the treasures of God.

When a person is baptized  or/and  later when they can decide to be ministered to by God, accepting dicipleship via the Holy Spirit, via the merits of the church, the church who has Jesus as God as the head, then they are capable of seeing the spiritual kingdom here on earth. When someone asks Jesus to come into their hearts, Jesus will perhaps bring them to baptism. When the baptized ask that Jesus come into their hearts it is perhaps not so much a renewal of the spirit as a "shape up" of it--whereby the sheep open their ears to the voice which is their shepard's voice.


So yes right now we are in the flesh, but our born again spirit is able to appreciate the spiritual kingdom which is spoken of in Christianity. Jesus in us,  the kingdom he sees, that he walks in now via the church is very sensible to us in every sensible way as we appreciate it--a love offering to the world.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2015)

Born Again: Only a Semantics Question?

By COGwriter

Note: This article is intended to discuss whether the use of the expression "born again" is simply one of semantics or if it has major doctrinal implications. It is not intended to discuss where the Greek term gennao is or should be translated as begotten as opposed to born: that may be the subject of a second article (but I will add that the Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon, does use "beget" as the primary definition on page 344 of the 1996 version which I own; as does Danker's Greek-English Lexicon, 3rd edition, 2000, page 193).

For years the old Worldwide Church of God (WCG) taught that we were begotten children of God who would be born again at the resurrection. About 14-20 years ago this changed. Essentially the teaching became that of the Protestants: once you accept Jesus as your savior you are born again, and that if you are only begotten now you are not a child of God. Over time, WCG, like many Protestant sects, also began to teach that the laws of God were done away (and now WCG/GCI clearly teaches that they were).

While I continued to accept the concept that we would be "changed" at the resurrection (I Corinthians 15:42), I started to feel that when a Protestant asked if you were "born again" all they wanted to know was if you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior. I considered the "born again" question to be primarily one of semantics and not a major distortion to "the faith which was once delivered" (Jude 3, NKJV throughout), but I was wrong. Very wrong.

My wife Joyce, on the other hand, never went along with any of the changes regarding being "born again". Lest their be any misunderstanding, I did believe that upon conversion, we were begotten of God, and as such his children. I did not accept the new teaching that those who are only begotten are not children. I did believe we would be born again after the resurrection.

I believed I John 3:9 which says,

    "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for his seed remains in him; and he cannot sin because he is born of God".

I also believed Jesus when he said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). I just felt that the Protestant issue was really only one of semantics, or definitions. Not only was I unaware of where this doctrinal change would lead, I had neglected the history of how it developed.

http://www.cogwriter.com/born.htm


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2015)

Hislop seemed to feel that the concept of being born again with baptism originally was a pagan corruption of the fact that God saved Noah in an ark from the flood (many ancient civilizations recorded the flood). As Noah lived before and after the flood, he was believed to be in some sense "born again". The water of the flood is supposed to be a type of baptism. After some baptismal type ceremony (which did not require immersion in some cultures), the re-born individual was assured entrance to some version of paradise. 

The Protestant view is remarkably similar, except that baptism is not required of infants in most Protestant denominations (it is unclear what the actual Protestant teaching is regarding sinless infants/children who die without baptism; a related article of interest may be Hope of Salvation: How the COGs Differ From Protestants). The general Protestant view appears to be that once you sin (which they usually do not clearly define; for a Biblical definition see I John 3:4), you must accept Jesus as your savior and then you are "born again"; baptism is expected but does not appear to be an absolute requirement. Once you are "born again" your "immortal soul" is guaranteed to enter heaven upon death unless you repudiate your belief in Jesus. Sinning in any and every other way will not prevent you from entering heaven. Further repentance, though often encouraged, is not strictly necessary. In other words, when a Protestants are referring to being "born again" they are referring to a state in which one no longer needs to do follow the laws of God in order to enter the Kingdom of God. 

Perhaps I should add that even in the second century (the century just after the Book of Revelation was written), there was at least one Christian taught that we are not to be "born again" until the resurrection. 

Thus the idea of being begotten when converted and being born again at the resurrection is not a relatively new one among professing Christians. But unlike the idea of being born again now, it is not a concept with pre-Christian (pagan) origins.

Conclusion

The concept of being "born again in the flesh" is more than just an issue of semantics. It was not taught in the early true church, as they taught Christians were begotten now and would be born again at the resurrection. The concept of being born again now seems to mislead some people into believing that obeying the law of God is not necessary, or otherwise miunderstand the entire plan of God. It does not lead people to Jesus Christ.

We in the Continuing Church of God teach:

    Upon receiving the Holy Spirit, Christians are begotten by God (cf. 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 5:1), then after a period of spiritual growth/gestation (cf. 2 Peter 3:18), Christians will literally be born again at the resurrection (John 3:5-7) as Christ was (Romans 1:4-5).

Its logical conclusion is to prevent some people from having "any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God" (Ephesians 5:5). And, as we in the Churches of God have seen, its acceptance among some has ultimately lead to the acceptance of other pagan practices for those who once professed to have the faith once delivered (Jude 3).

http://www.cogwriter.com/born.htm


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Born Again: Only a Semantics Question?
> 
> By COGwriter
> 
> ...



Who am I to judge another's earnest effort to be friends with God?

Yet, the WW Church of God's, doctrine on being born again post resurrection is not sound and probably the effort of people who try to "rightly discern the meaning of scriptures" buy means that lead them to misunderstanding as being understanding. I don't know really the ins and outs on how they accomplish this..." shoot yourself in the foot" feat but I feel that they might be trying too hard to please God so that they and He will be content and predictable with each other.  This is not my kind of relationship with God. We are not always content and we are not predictable, but we are always in love. 

The only begotten of God is Jesus the son. We on the other hand are created beings with an edge compared to other creatures...we are souls with free will. We can chose to play God or we can chose to love Him. What is changed at "conversion" in my experience, mine and with others is that one's spiritual nature is changed and this change provides for changes in the world we live in now. We can have a vertical relationship with God, as in the once heard saying, " Do you know Jesus personally." and we can have a horizontal nature with our world. This is our cross....if we chose it. It is our cross because we are still physically in the fallen world, for now. But our hope is in the resurrection....where our cross will be no more.

 Maybe, perhaps.... and perhaps it is a good time to pray for me that if I have to eat my words, that they will never come out of my mouth again. Jesus is my Lord.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> The kingdom Jesus speaks about is here and now.... It is a spiritual kingdom and that is why flesh and blood cannot inherit it. It is not a kingdom with a physical nature, although it operates in the world and does shape the world.
> 
> So yes you have to be born again to see the kingdom. The folk that are not redeemed and who do not avail themselves of the ministry of the Holy Spirit, have no vantage point to it, simply. They cannot view it because the spirit part of their souls is no sympathetic to the treasures of God.
> 
> ...



I heard that some believe the Kingdom is now in the form of the Church but first comes the natural and then comes the spiritual. I'm still in a natural existence.
What exactly happens differently when I die a physical death? Compared to my conversion. 
If I became a spirit at my conversion what will I become at my death/resurrection?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2015)

I guess it's not so weird that one individual such as myself challenges these things, yet when a whole congregation/denomination does:

ARE WE BORN AGAIN NOW OR AT THE RESURRECTION?

Eric Snow  Sermonette for 12-23-00, Ann Arbor

Consider now, are the following statements true?:

A fertilized ovum—an embryo—is not a born human person.  In the same manner the Spirit-begotten human is not, yet, a spirit person or being, as Jesus said he shall be when born again. . . . It is necessary to make this explanation, at this point, because the popular deception of a deceived traditional “Christianity” is to claim that when one “receives Christ”—“accepts Christ”—“professes Christ”—or first receives God’s Holy Spirit to dwell in him, that he is already “born again.”

Mr. Armstrong wrote these words.  Was he right to deny that Christians are born again now, but we have to wait the resurrection to be born again?  Are we only begotten or conceived now, but born then?

S.P.S.  Today we’re going to look at a few key texts that show Christians are only begotten now, but have to wait for  Jesus’ return and the resurrection to be born again.

Key change when occurred in Dec. 1990/Jan. 1991 since was the foundation for future changes on the God Family doctrine and what the kingdom of God was.  Arguably the changes before were mostly right (cosmetics, healing, interracial healing) but mostly wrong afterwards (God is a Trinity, kingdom of God here now, Sabbath and OT law abolished, etc.)

Key Greek word in dispute is “gennao.”  Is ambiguous, can be translated either “born” or “begotten.”  “Begotten” old, obsolete word for conceived, refers to father’s role in conception.

Because in other texts “gennao” can be translated either way, the central passage in this dispute is John 3:3-8.

Logic concerning the kingdom of God tied to being born again, the two are inseparable by implication. THIS IS CENTRAL TO PROVING THIS OLD DOCTRINE OF OURS.

http://www.lionofjudah1.org/Sermonetteshtml/Born Again Later sermonette 122300.htm


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2015)

Most professing Christians believe that being “born again” occurs in this life upon “receiving Jesus.” But this is not what the Bible teaches. Being “born again” has nothing whatsoever to do with “professing Jesus,” “just believing in your heart,” “giving your heart to the Lord” or any other kind of religious experience. It does not happen at conversion. The Bible teaches that it happens long after this initial step in a new Christian’s life.

When Christ said “Except a man,” He left no room for misunderstanding. Do not be confused. Remaining deceived about being born again makes salvation impossible. Certainly, when this occurs is inseparable from properly understanding how it happens or what it means. Also, if one believes that conversion allows a person to “see the kingdom,” then he must believe that the kingdom is here now. Yet the Bible plainly teaches otherwise!

Christ is the firstborn “from the dead.” This is a big key to understanding when one is born again. Believe God, and fix this phrase in your mind. This verse states that one’s new birth occurs after death—and involves returning from the dead. Once again, accept what the Bible says, without adding to or subtracting from it. Verse 15 uses the phrase “firstborn of every creature,” thereby adding double emphasis to Paul’s statement—and meaning.

Despite the plainness of this verse, some try to dismiss it by saying it has nothing to do with being born from the dead. They explain it away as merely a title given to Christ—that He holds the title of “Firstborn from the dead.”

This is silly—even foolish—and easy to disprove.

http://rcg.org/books/wdbam.html


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2015)

Here comes another eye opening thought provoking topic! Regardless of what your pastor or denomination has taught you concerning born again, if its not the change of the body then you are wrong. I always run across those who say they are born again, yet they look like flesh and blood, they are human and not spirit and they cannot come and God as the wind

Brothers and Sisters we are not born again until we get a change of body.

Guess what we cannot find one person in the bible  who said they are born again

We can only find Jesus and Enoch who went from flesh to spirit

I know some people will get upset, if you read the verses and you still are upset

Take it up with God he told his servants what to write

John 3:5-8 KJV
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. [8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


Right now we are flesh , We are born of a woman
When will we be born of the spirit?
When will we be like the wind?

It's not now you we are flesh

Jesus is talking about a physical change

Nicodemus was talking about being born once more

Peter is taking about a physical change

When do we become something other than what we are now?

I'm gonna head over to Job a see that he has to say

Job 14:14 KJV
[14] If a man die, shall he live again ? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Do you know that every person born will be born again

Answer the question Job asked above!

Yeses shall live again

The righteous and the wicked shall live again

I betcha none of you ever considered this

Job said live again, we already live once

He said again

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/born-again-is-the-resurrection/


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I heard that some believe the Kingdom is now in the form of the Church but first comes the natural and then comes the spiritual. I'm still in a natural existence.
> What exactly happens differently when I die a physical death? Compared to my conversion.
> If I became a spirit at my conversion what will I become at my death/resurrection?



You trade in your Dodge for a GM. No wait, that 's another  tread. I getting tired. Bed soon.  

Ok... again my friend. You were born a soul with a spiritual and physical nature. You were born with a fallen nature, both spiritual and physical.  The spiritual part of you nature is born again here in the now through lets call it "conversion" which is provided by God. (You know all about His grace and belief in Jesus.) We still have to die physically because of our fallen nature or that we are in the fallen world, but at the resurrection we will again be body with spirit or souls. We will be given spiritual bodies (   spirits with bodies) as opposed to fallen bodies with  spirit. We will live eternally with Him or without Him according His judgement.

The born again experience is in the here and now due to baptism in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  The born again experience will not be the resurrection,  this experience will happen to all the living and all the dead, born again spiritually and not born again.

Personally I feel sad for people who think that the Kingdom is not for the here and now. In my experience it has made good people misunderstand scripture, and miss out on the walk of faith, and thier organizations to come up with unorthodox doctrines and in some cases to doubt the language of scripture that mainline Christianity uses to such an extent as to rewrite scripture itself in some cases--- not with an eye to language but doctrine and meaning. Their doctrine schemes can usually be traced to a extra ordinary individual with an extra ordinary revelation which they try to get in accord with scripture. This can take, yrs, decades,  and centuries in the case of their followers to do.


The notion that Jesus will hand over his kingdom to the Father, a kingdom that did not have a genesis and a reality in our day to day world is very troubling to me. For me this would make the Sermon on the Mount a joke and the ministry of Jesus itself without real significance to my life-- but maybe I would believe in God still and the scripture would be no different to me now then if I had lived   a hundred or a thousand yrs before Jesus was born. Perhaps I could be in the Spirit and prophecy on times and events political and social  as they understood then. And for all my sighing for the lack of faith in the world I needed to differ to some said ordained leaders and make sure I had enough saved up for the periodic  sacrifices for my sins-- because there was not an out of the fallen world while yet in it. The world could not be transformed except by the regular   bath in the form of God's wrath. I would be a cowering soul--a spiritual and physical coward. I would differ to prophets and their writings( scripture) and call it my faith. God had walked with Adam and left the scene as far as walking side by side with anyone. From spiritual exiles--I need only know the road to purification and Canaan land, my hope in the words of Isaiah and a new David Kingdom one day.  A kingdom of justice to come as per the prophets my hope for the world. 

"The kingdom is in you...." spoken by Jesus is it the same as the "awakening" of other religious traditions--- is it from the insight of man who would say " Know your bliss.",  or" Self actualize." "Achieve Nirvana."   or is it wisdom from out of our world, out of our fallen world, from the grace of your and my Creator?

Is "the kingdom in you..." spoken to souls who have lived their earthly lives? Or is it spoken to earth bound sinners, folk born into a world of  designs foreign to God?


----------



## formula1 (Jan 2, 2015)

Provided on the subject matter without comment!  Praise be to the Father for His amazing gift!!!

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2015)

formula1 said:


> Provided on the subject matter without comment!  Praise be to the Father for His amazing gift!!!
> 
> 1 Peter 1
> 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



Good point and is one I've considered a lot.

begotten us again unto a living hope

All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is by his great mercy that we have been born again, because God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Now we live with great expectation,

[4] To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

1 Peter 1:23-24 KJV
[23] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. [24] For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away

John 3:7-8 KJV
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. [8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Job 14:14 KJV
[14] If a man die, shall he live again ? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2015)

It still sounds like a physical to spiritual change that happens only once. If this is at conversion what other physical to spiritual change can I possibly have?
When did Jesus become a life giving spirit?

Don't we follow Jesus in example?


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 2, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> It still sounds like a physical to spiritual change that happens only once. If this is at conversion what other physical to spiritual change can I possibly have?
> When did Jesus become a life giving spirit?
> 
> Don't we follow Jesus in example?



Jesus was always a  life (eternal with God life) giving spirit. Maybe? What Jesus did and said is our example, his walk in the world, but what he is, is not our example.

What I understand about the first Adam and the Second Adam is that the first suffers a  world of corruption, and the second one does not.

Sounds in our corrupt world cannot always be trusted. So for  some sounds to be  always trusted in our corrupt world it must be that spiritual nature is changed, because it is by a change in spiritual nature ( the fall) that we can say " it sounds like" meaning it might be, but it might not be. In this case the physical sound which is perceived is not trusted. But spiritually and born again in our world, our perception of sound is changed so that the voice ( manifestations) of the Lord active in our world is trusted, always.

Kinda.. Sorta..


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 3, 2015)

When were Old Testament saints "born again?"
It couldn't have anything to do with baptism.
They couldn't have been born again at their conversion.

Old Testament saints had to await Christ’s resurrection before their bodies could be resurrected (1 Cor. 15:20; cf. Matt. 27:53), but their souls went directly to heaven.
Christ was the Lamb slain “from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8), and they were there on the merits of what God knew Christ would accomplish.
(interesting concept)
(this out of time thing again)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 3, 2015)

Relating to the Kingdom being on earth was Nicodemus being born again to see it:

An Explanation of John 3:1-10

Is it true that in John 3:3, Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about being “born again”? That’s an excellent question, especially if it is posed as the result of realizing that the Church of the Body of Christ (Christians) did not begin until the Day of Pentecost, as recorded in Acts 2, so how could Nicodemus have been “born again,” that is, become a Christian, prior to that?

So what did Jesus mean when he said that Nicodemus must be “born from above”? 

John 3 contains a powerful teaching about the future hope of Israel. Unfortunately, poor translation and wrong teaching have obscured it so completely that the actual meaning of what Jesus said is unknown to most Christians. The purpose of this appendix is to clarify what Jesus meant when he said, “No one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again” (John 3:3). We will see that when Jesus spoke about being “born again,” he was speaking about the First Resurrection, a subject clearly declared in the Old Testament. Jesus was not talking about being “born again” as this phrase has come into use in the Church Age and as it is commonly used by Christians today. He was not referring to being sealed with the gift of holy spirit and being “born” into the family of God. He was addressing Nicodemus, an Israelite, concerning the Hope of Israel, the First Resurrection.

http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/you-must-be-born-again


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 3, 2015)

1) Nicodemus, an educated man and one of Israel’s teachers, could and should have known what Jesus was speaking about because it is revealed in the Old Testament.

    2) In John 3, the Greek words translated “born again” are not the same Greek words translated “born again” in the Church Epistles.

    3) When Jesus spoke of “entering the Kingdom,” he was not speaking of Christian “salvation,” which is something entirely different.

    4) Jesus was not offering the Christian New Birth to Nicodemus.

    5) Jesus was making a statement of fact concerning the hope of Israel, the First Resurrection. He was not prophesying to Nicodemus about the coming Church Age.

http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/you-must-be-born-again


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 3, 2015)

2 Corinthians 5:17: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!”

How do we know this new creation concerns just our spirit? God is spiritual and creates things out of dust. Dust isn't spiritual and yet is from God's creation. Are there Bible verses that say my new creation is a spirit?

Where does the old creation go? Eventually back to dust. I guess there is this long overlap of the two creations. 
I understand we now follow God and not our old selves. Is that all being born again means? Isn't regeneration the wrong word to use? I have a new generated spirit. I can't regenerate my old self.
My new spirit is generated by the Spirit.
If my old self was regenerated then I would never sin again. My new creation can't sin. My old self is dead.

Wow, maybe this should have been under the Assurance thread.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 3, 2015)

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

The more I study I'm beginning to see the big picture. It's all connected. It's slowly coming together. I hope it comes together before I burst.

In these two verses I get a new spirit, (what happened to my old spirit?) and a new heart. (flesh)
See it's not just spirit. 

God placed his Spirit in me and causes me to walk in his statues. 

Wow, maybe this should have been under the Assurance thread.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 3, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> When were Old Testament saints "born again?"
> It couldn't have anything to do with baptism.
> They couldn't have been born again at their conversion.
> 
> ...



I am told that gentile converts to Judaism were baptized for some  300 yrs before Jesus. It was accounted to them to be "born again" or into the line of Abraham. Baptism was a type of crossing of the red sea, from bondage to freedom. And their conversion was one from being lost and "dogs" to being members of God's chosen--the fold. Or something close to this.

Art. It is recounted that when Joseph Smith was asked to speak to community leaders in New England, one asked him what his writings were. Apparently he answered "They are my books of prayers."  In the end,these  his"books of prayers" became biblical testament to his followers. 

I wonder sometimes if you read other men's books of prayers as if they had the vigor of testament, as in the 1st and second testament of mainstream Christianity?

Did you ever test your own prayers trusting and with the answers in relationship being satisfied and leaving it at that?


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 3, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Ezekiel 36:26-27
> 26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
> 
> The more I study I'm beginning to see the big picture. It's all connected. It's slowly coming together. I hope it comes together before I burst.
> ...




Wow Art, Wow! I think you have it...  Now take some time to breath between labour pains. Wow!

(Oh and the heart part for me here is not flesh, it is mind.)


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 4, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1) Nicodemus, an educated man and one of Israel’s teachers, could and should have known what Jesus was speaking about because it is revealed in the Old Testament.
> 
> 2) In John 3, the Greek words translated “born again” are not the same Greek words translated “born again” in the Church Epistles.
> 
> ...



This is blatantly false. Jesus was clear that unless one was born again they could not enter the Kingdom.
 The Hope of Israel was not the first resurrection, but the resurrection of the dead....Granted it followed and depended upon the first.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> I am told that gentile converts to Judaism were baptized for some  300 yrs before Jesus. It was accounted to them to be "born again" or into the line of Abraham. Baptism was a type of crossing of the red sea, from bondage to freedom. And their conversion was one from being lost and "dogs" to being members of God's chosen--the fold. Or something close to this.
> 
> Art. It is recounted that when Joseph Smith was asked to speak to community leaders in New England, one asked him what his writings were. Apparently he answered "They are my books of prayers."  In the end,these  his"books of prayers" became biblical testament to his followers.
> 
> ...



If these old baptisms counted as being born again because of the "promise" then I guess so is infant baptism. 
If this is true why aren't the Elect "born again" at birth?
The "Elect" have the promise of salvation from before time.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Wow Art, Wow! I think you have it...  Now take some time to breath between labour pains. Wow!
> 
> (Oh and the heart part for me here is not flesh, it is mind.)



Thanks and I will take time to breath but when the Spirit says sing, you gotta sing.

Now the heart is mind or soul which is considered flesh. We are still lead by our flesh/mind/soul/heart. 
Unless heart is spirit perhaps conversion requires regeneration of our old hearts/souls/minds although the verse says "new heart of flesh."

More importantly is the assurance of salvation that accompanies this New Heart. 
With this new heart I get the Holy Spirit which causes me walk in God's statues.
Amen

Oh, I read of a guy who thought his new heart of flesh was literally a new physical heart that pumps blood. He believes everything in the Bible is literal.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> This is blatantly false. Jesus was clear that unless one was born again they could not enter the Kingdom.
> The Hope of Israel was not the first resurrection, but the resurrection of the dead....Granted it followed and depended upon the first.



But the Kingdom wasn't here yet. How can you be born again into something that isn't here yet?
Isn't that what we are trying to figure out? Can one be born again into a future promise?
When is the Kingdom? Did it start at Pentecost? 70AD?
At our resurrection? 
Not when we enter the Kingdom but when did the Kingdom start?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 4, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> But the Kingdom wasn't here yet. How can you be born again into something that isn't here yet?
> Isn't that what we are trying to figure out? Can one be born again into a future promise?
> When is the Kingdom? Did it start at Pentecost? 70AD?
> At our resurrection?
> Not when we enter the Kingdom but when did the Kingdom start?



Here's the part I found wrong. "_5) Jesus was making a statement of fact concerning the hope of Israel, the First Resurrection. He was not prophesying to Nicodemus about the coming Church Age._

 John the baptist started the preaching " the kingdom is at hand"  Jesus continued it... No the kingdom had not arrived, but it was at hand and it was the subject matter of Jesus statement that you must be born again. Not the resurrection, and certainly not the first resurrection, that doesnt even make sense.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

If one isn't born again they can't even see the Kingdom. Can a lost person not see or feel the Church? Total depravity?
First one is born again and then comes faith & repentance?

I've never considered the Church to be the Kingdom. I know you hold  Preterist beliefs but to me being born again is to the promise of things to come. The promise of Jesus returning. The promise of a Kingdom. Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven.
Maybe this is why I see being born again as being a promise of being in the Kingdom instead of entering the Kingdom at the moment of being born again. 
I see salvation as a promise of eternal life from a human death.
My body will die but I will live forever in the Kingdom on earth or in Heaven. Matters not to me where this Kingdom is. I just don't believe it's here yet. 
My salvation is a promise. My conversion grants me the privilege of the Holy Spirit dwelling in me. It gives me a New Nature. It lets me become a part of God's Church and an adopted son.
But the actual salvation is from eternal death. This is at my physical death and resurrection. 
You see everything as happening at conversion to include I guess, resurrection. You believe at conversion you enter the Kingdom.

I just feel I will inherit my everlasting life after I die a physical death. I will become a spirit or my spirit will leave my body and take my soul to Heaven or the Kingdom on the Earth.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

Did Jesus Say that the Resurrection Was Already Here?

The doctrine of a spiritual resurrection, rather than the resurrection from actual death of the physical body, has also found its way into most Bibles, making even Jesus seem to have taught it. According to most translations, Jesus is reported to have said: “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” (John 5:25, ESV) The New World Translation quotes Jesus' words similarly: “Most truly I say to you, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live.”

The words “and is now here” (English Standard Version); or “and it is now” (New World Translation) are recognized to be an interpolation, that is, they are spurious and do not belong in the Bible, for they are missing in the oldest manuscripts. They were added in the margin by a copyist who believed in a spiritual resurrection, later to find their way into the main text.* Jesus never said that the hour of the resurrection had already arrived, in which “all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28,29; Acts 17:31; 24:15) 

http://perimeno.ca/BornAgain.htm

This is from a JW site but then again I share many of their beliefs. Just to present when the actual resurrection happens.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

According to the online encyclopedia, Wikipedia, this is what most people understand born again to mean: "In Christianity, to be born again is to undergo a 'spiritual rebirth' (regeneration) of the human soul or spirit, contrasted with the physical birth everyone experiences. The origin of the term 'born again' is the New Testament: 'Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born again."' [Jn 3:3 NIV] It is a term associated with salvation in Christianity. Individuals who profess to be born again often state that they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ."

Although Jesus spoke to Nicodemus of the need to be "born again" in order to "see the kingdom of God," the Scriptures reveal that Jesus did not use it in the context in which it became popular, as described in the above definition. In fact, the term "born again" was adopted to legitimize a new sort of resurrection that began to be taught during the time of the apostles, and which was spreading rapidly among many of the early Greek congregations.  

http://perimeno.ca/BornAgain.htm


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 4, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks and I will take time to breath but when the Spirit says sing, you gotta sing.
> 
> Now the heart is mind or soul which is considered flesh. We are still lead by our flesh/mind/soul/heart.
> Unless heart is spirit perhaps conversion requires regeneration of our old hearts/souls/minds although the verse says "new heart of flesh."
> ...



Let me muse here. You know Art the body, the flesh, is not really fallen maybe. Maybe what is really fallen is the mind we dress or undress it with.  Adam and Eve got in trouble with their bodies when they got their minds in the gutter maybe. Their world changed because their minds changed. The actual physical world most likely did not change except that man put his wrong mind at work in it.

Think of it this way: What is different in the bodies ( the flesh) of a couple before and after marriage? Nothing. In the first case if they are intimate and are one they are true to nature, and nature is their justification and yet some will have a need to hide their union as one same flesh. In the second case being intimate and one, they are justified before God having no need to hide their union as one same flesh before any. 

What has changed? The flesh, the spirit, the mind? Not the flesh. Same bodies. The design that unites two in intimacy probably is the same, at least initially. But is the mind in both cases the same in the case of an intimate union outside of marriage  and a married union? Maybe. It probably can be. But definitely marriage ( sanctioned by the church) brings a whole new human reality into being. 

Heart of stone versus heart of flesh to me is as the mind of a beast vs the mind of man as per God's design. It's as if when man tries to be God, he becomes a creature never intended and this fallen creature poisons all of life. In intimacy and in stewardship I don't think it was ever intended that man should be a beast. And fallen this man's mind to man with the mind of a beast... under various  manifestations and spins, is what needs changing.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 4, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> If one isn't born again they can't even see the Kingdom. Can a lost person not see or feel the Church? Total depravity?
> First one is born again and then comes faith & repentance?
> 
> I've never considered the Church to be the Kingdom. I know you hold  Preterist beliefs but to me being born again is to the promise of things to come. The promise of Jesus returning. The promise of a Kingdom. Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven.
> ...



One doesnt have to have preterist beliefs to understand the kingdom has come. Matter of fact I believe most of the folks I've seen on this forum have an understanding of a present kingdom. Until you realize the kingdom has come the bible will be nothing but a sea of confusion and questions that cannot be answered.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> One doesnt have to have preterist beliefs to understand the kingdom has come. Matter of fact I believe most of the folks I've seen on this forum have an understanding of a present kingdom. Until you realize the kingdom has come the bible will be nothing but a sea of confusion and questions that cannot be answered.



Yeah I understand what most believe. The Kingdom of God is upon us. The Kingdom of God is in us. The Kingdom is spiritual. 
I can and do find verses that say this. We discussed it on here a few times:

Luke 17:20-25

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation."

Luke 11:14-20

"And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven. But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub. And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges. But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you."


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

Matthew 13:44-50

"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

The Kingdom being like a net gathering the good into vessels and casting the bad away. So it shall be at the end of the world. 
This sounds like a future Kingdom.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

The spiritual Kingdom of Christ might be something different than the Kingdom of God.

4. Believers enter a spiritual kingdom of Christ when they are born again (Col. 1:13).

This is the kingdom comprised of all who submit to God’s authority.

5. The kingdom of God will come to earth in its prophetic fullness at the return of Christ. See Acts 14:22; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 2:12; 2 Timothy 4:1; James 2:5; 2 Peter 1:11; Revelation 12:10.

Believers are not building the kingdom of God on earth today. They are snatching brands from the coming fire before the day of salvation is finished (1 Cor. 9:19; 10:33; 2 Cor. 5:11, 18-21; 6:2; Jude 23). Today the “whole world lieth in wickedness” (1 John 5:19), and the devil is its god (2 Cor. 4:4). The apostles and prophets in the early churches (as described in the book of Acts and the Epistles) did not band together to accomplish grandiose social-justice projects; they did not pursue artsy activities; they did not try to save the earth; they preached the gospel and shined as lights in this dark world by their holy lives. Christ’s Great Commission emphasizes gospel preaching (Mat. 28:18-20; Mk. 16:15; Lk. 24:46-48; Acts 1:8). After Christ rose from the dead and as He was preparing them for His ascension, the disciples asked Him, “Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6). Jesus’ reply is very instructive. He did not correct their understanding of the establishment of a literal kingdom of earth. He told that it was not time for that long-expected kingdom to be established and that our duty in this church age is to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth. “And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth” (Acts 1:7-8). After this, Christ ascended to heaven and poured out the Holy Spirit upon the disciples to empower them for this great work. This commission of world evangelism will not be abrogated until church age saints are removed from this world and the Lord regenerates Israel and restores them to the front burner of His plan for the ages.

http://www.wayoflife.org/database/kingdomofgod.html


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

2. But I trust that we have established these facts about the kingdom of
God as proclaimed by Jesus
and His apostles...
a. The kingdom of God is spiritual, not physical
b. The kingdom involves the rule of God in the hearts of men
-- In particular, the kingdom is the rule of God manifested through
the person of Jesus Christ.

http://executableoutlines.com/king/king_02.htm


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

Some churches claim either that their particular denomination, or “Christianity” as a whole, constitutes the kingdom of God. A prominent television evangelist said, “The kingdom of God is within you.” Some have even quoted Luke 17:21: “The kingdom of God is within you.” The marginal correction as well as the Revised Standard, the Moffatt and other translations all show it should read, “in the midst of you”—that is, Jesus Christ was in the midst of them. He is the King of the future kingdom of God, and the Bible in Daniel 7 and other places use the terms king and kingdom interchangeably, that is, the king is, or represents, the kingdom he rules.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

Like a newscaster far ahead of his time, Jesus came with an announcement about a complete change in the way the world would one day be governed. World peace, happiness, harmony, universal health and prosperity would come.

But He did not bring it in the way that most believe.

In Mark 1:15, Jesus declared, “Repent you, and believe the gospel.” We must ask, just what is the gospel? Most “gospel believers” never concern themselves with what it is they believe. The truth of the gospel has remained hidden to the vast majority of professing Christians. Ever since the first century there has been a conspiracy to deceive would-be Christians about the meaning of the gospel.

As a result, most believe the gospel is about the Person of Jesus. Certainly, Jesus’ role is enormous, but He is not the gospel. The Bible shows that Jesus Christ is preached in conjunction with the gospel.
Notice what Mark recorded! “Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God” (vs. 14). That is the gospel Jesus preached. It was in this context He said, “Repent you, and believe the gospel.” What gospel?—the “kingdom of God.” Verse one refers to, “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ.” The gospel of Jesus Christ was about the kingdom of God—not something else! One must believe and understand that gospel to be saved. No counterfeit or substitute will do.

Very few recognize that Jesus Christ was born to be a king—to rule all nations of Earth forever with the help of other spirit-composed kings. This is the central theme of the entire Bible: “And out of His [Christ’s] mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron…and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS” (Rev. 19:15-16).

http://realtruth.org/articles/110610-003-religion.html


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

I guess we need to decide if Jesus came to be the King and to rule a Kingdom but the Jews didn't believe he was. They didn't accept Jesus as their King and crucified him.  

Now we could decide that according to prophesy Jesus never had a chance to be this King at the time he came. He was instead sent as the Messiah and had to be crucified. The Jews hearts were hardened.  
One day Jesus will return as a King. A literal king who will rule on the Earth. 

I wonder why some Christians believe Satan is the ruler of this earth today as we speak?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 4, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> 2. But I trust that we have established these facts about the kingdom of
> God as proclaimed by Jesus
> and His apostles...
> a. The kingdom of God is spiritual, not physical
> ...



Just reading what you posted and not visiting the link...This is the most accurate.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Just reading what you posted and not visiting the link...This is the most accurate.



John 18:36
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world."

1 Corinthians 15:50
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

From Jesus' prospective, his message was about the Kingdom of God.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

I understand most Christians are Amillennial in their position on prophecy. Still many Christians believe Jesus will have an Earthly Kingdom. 
Maybe they feel Jesus came to rule as King and was denied this Kingdom by the Jews.
Perhaps an earthly rule is necessary to full fill this original mission.

The following is from a Premellennial: 

Knowing the doctrinal difference between the terms "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God" is the key to understanding the complete time line of Biblical history past, present, and future, the proper place of the Church and the prophetic future of Israel. The Bible is about the struggle for a Kingdom; the Kingdom of Heaven, a Kingdom with its Capital City (Jerusalem) on this Earth.

Israel rejected the Lord Jesus Christ as the Messiah when He first came because the religious rulers of Israel were only looking for a political Messiah King who would make Israel the ruling kingdom of the world. (See Jeremiah 23:5, Psalms 48:2.) They were expecting a warrior leader who would deliver them militarily from the Romans and the rest of the heathen. They were expecting carnal deliverance. Because of their hardened hearts, and their legalistic and ritualistic zeal for works, they were blind to their need for spiritual deliverance and the true righteousness of God, which must be born into the heart. That is what led them to ask this of Jesus:

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
(Luke 17:20-21 KJV)

In that statement, Jesus was declaring a spiritual truth that Israel did not see. But on another occasion, when asked about His Kingdom by Pontius Pilate, He gave a somewhat different answer:

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
(John 18:36 KJV)

In this particular passage the word "now" is not speaking about the spiritual Kingdom of God (within the heart of the redeemed), but of a literal political Kingdom yet to come on this Earth. You should also take note that the word "now" has been removed from many newer Bible translations (NASB, AMP, NLT, ESV, CEV). The reason is because most of the translators of today's "Bibles" are Amillennial in their position on prophecy. In other words, they do not accept the literal return of the Lord Jesus Christ to reign on the Earth for a thousand years as foretold in in the book of Revelations.

http://www.kjvbible.org/thekingdoms.html


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 4, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I understand most Christians are Amillennial in their position on prophecy. Still many Christians believe Jesus will have an Earthly Kingdom.
> Maybe they feel Jesus came to rule as King and was denied this Kingdom by the Jews.
> Perhaps an earthly rule is necessary to full fill this original mission.
> 
> ...



 And this is the basis of their error. There is no difference in the kingdom of heaven or kingdom of God. The dispensationialist are full of errors, some caused by their insistance to take the entire book as literal, even Daniel and Revelation.

 Just a little study of the hermeneutics shows that while the kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God may be termed differently they point to the very same kingdom.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

I'm just showing or presenting the different beliefs of what the "Kingdom of God" is. 
Perhaps it is both spiritual and physical. I can't believe Jesus was just teaching about a 1,000 year kingdom on earth. I don't understand the prophetic future of Israel or even if there is one.
I do feel that there is a Kingdom be it spiritual or physical that I will only go to when I die a physical death. Somehow something in that Kingdom is going to be different from this kingdom.
This future Kingdom is what I want to be born again into.
I want salvation from my physical death. I want my soul to be saved from eternal death. I believe that future Kingdom is what people must be born again to see and to enter.
This is the way I was raised and indoctrinated into. Perhaps it is a wrong way of believing. Perhaps through prayer and study I'll change my beliefs. 
Again I personally don't care if this Kingdom of God that I will inherit is spiritual or physical. I don't care if it's in Heaven or on the Earth. I don't care if my resurrection is at my death or 2,000 years after my death although I hope it's at my death. I don't want to wait in the ground or in Paradise. I want to go straight to the Kingdom of God.
I don't feel in my heart that I'm in the Kingdom of my Hope, yet.
I don't believe I'll be there as long as I'm in a body of flesh and blood. 
I don't see any other way of me being in the Kingdom  except it being in my future. I'm still flesh and blood. I still sin. I still feel pain.
I see others around me that I feel aren't going to this future Kingdom.

I do agree that there is some entrance or spiritual acceptance of this future kingdom at conversion. I became a child of God. I'm waiting for my future inheritance. 
Just like my earthly Father is taking care and loving me now, my inheritance is in the future.
But in the mean time as in now, I'm receiving the benefits of having a Heavenly Father. I have assurance of this future inheritance.  
I have assurance of God's love and protection now. I feel his Spirit within me. 
Maybe I am born from above.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 4, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm just showing or presenting the different beliefs of what the "Kingdom of God" is.
> .



 And Im just showing how false their teaching is..which is easy...look at the verse John 18:36  they stake their belief on the word [now] and claim a conspiracy by amillenials of taking that most important word out...but look, it wasnt in the greek text to begin with.

http://biblehub.com/text/john/18-36.htm


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 4, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought that was their point. That it wasn't in the greek text to begin with.



_In this particular passage the word "now" is not speaking about the spiritual Kingdom of God (within the heart of the redeemed), but of a literal political Kingdom yet to come on this Earth. You should also take note that the word "now" has been removed from many newer Bible translations (NASB, AMP, NLT, ESV, CEV)._

 Looks to me they are basing it on being in the kjv but not the others...The reason it isnt in the others is because it never was there to begin with,


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> And Im just showing how false their teaching is..which is easy...look at the verse John 18:36  they stake their belief on the word [now] and claim a conspiracy by amillenials of taking that most important word out...but look, it wasnt in the greek text to begin with.
> 
> http://biblehub.com/text/john/18-36.htm



OK, I see your point. Man has way too much input into God's Word.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

It appears that there is too much free will in the Premellennial belief.

They believe that The Jews believed that the Messiah would come to re-establish the throne of David in Israel.
Instead of an earthly kingdom, the Jews rejected Christ
So, they state that Jesus died, returned to heaven until the day that God decides the Jews will accept Jesus. He will then return to establish the kingdom at that time.
In the meantime, as a placeholder, God established the church to carry on the belief in God until Jesus’ return.

I don’t think they understand what they are saying!

A.  They are saying that mankind was able to thwart the will of God!

B.  They are saying that the all-knowing God did not know how Jesus would be received! 
                                                                                                                                    C.   They are saying that God made a mistake! 

D.   But my Bible says that God sent His Son at the perfect time - 
       Gal 4:3-5

http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVSermons/WhatIfTheJewsHadAcceptedJesus.htm


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2015)

I was hoping Adam had a choice, Jesus had a choice, the Jews had a choice, and I had a choice.
 Jesus never had a choice to be their King. The Jews were chosen to be unchosen to make way for the Gentiles. 

“This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel” (Eph. 3:6).

This mystery revealed  ties in to everything we've been discussing on all of the topics. Now I must rethink my free will. God's plan worked perfectly.

Many premillennialists believe that  God intended Jesus to become King at His first coming, but later the Jews rejected Jesus so God had to change His plans and make Jesus King at His second coming. This means God and Jesus failed to fulfill express predictions.  

I think this is what I was indoctrinated into as a Southern Baptist. Maybe this is why I don't understand the Kingdom correctly.
Maybe I don't even understand predestination correctly.
This will require great prayer and study.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 5, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I was hoping Adam had a choice, Jesus had a choice, the Jews had a choice, and I had a choice.
> Jesus never had a choice to be their King. The Jews were chosen to be unchosen to make way for the Gentiles.
> 
> “This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel” (Eph. 3:6).
> ...



Art. Either you get "married" to Jesus or you don't. The "rest" will take care of itself. The "rest" is predestined. The choice is yours.

 It is kind of life defeating to be "engaged" only for too long a period.  Marriage is where it's at or a godless celibacy. Too long an engagement is being lukewarm, tepid. It's not a way to live life.

So here is my suggestions to your study. ( Athough you never asked me to suggest anything.) Don't study for awhile. Instead dive into your baptismal water, wash yourself, wash your face, put on your finest and go meet Jesus at the alter. The only scripture you are allowed to read on your honeymoon, ( your not allowed to read church tracks), is Mathew 5, 6, 7 and the Acts of the Apostles by Luke.

I expect you will be bounding with life and excitement if you do this. Don't forget to send post cards--if you have time. I'd be interested where He takes you.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 5, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Art. Either you get "married" to Jesus or you don't. The "rest" will take care of itself. The "rest" is predestined. The choice is yours.
> 
> It is kind of life defeating to be "engaged" only for too long a period.  Marriage is where it's at or a godless celibacy. Too long an engagement is being lukewarm, tepid. It's not a way to live life.
> 
> ...



By golly you must be a saint! I started in Matthew 3 (sorry teacher) as this is where the Kingdom is at hand and a coming wrath. The new King(Jesus) is gonna clean house but first was anointed.  

Post card follows.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 5, 2015)

Postcard: 
                                                                                                                                        I think I should have started in Isaiah as this is where I was taken by his prophesy. 
OK continuing in Matthew 3, the Holy Spirit(God) lead Jesus into the desert. God had a plan. He got Satan to tempt Jesus. Temptation was needed as Adam failed this test or at least followed God's plan of failing.
Jesus passed the test and God sent Satan away and sent angels in to save Jesus. Sometimes God uses angels to do his leg work.
Now this is where Isaiah's prophesy come to fruition.
Jesus left to go live with Gentiles. 
Isaiah had forseen this even about them seeing the great light that the Jews wouldn't see or couldn't see due to blindness.
This is where salvation to the Gentiles is talked about by Jesus. Maybe the beginning of the "Great Mystery."
Isaiah told of a great Gentile nation with it's government resting on the new King's shoulder.
Jesus told the Gentiles his new Kingdom was near. He is in the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,  By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles as was told by Isaiah.
These people had never lived under the Law and so accepted grace easier. Even the Jews here were more humble.
Isaiah said: There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.
Jesus the new King of the Gentiles talked of his Kingdom being near. The great mystery revealed.

AFTER EXPLAINING THIS THE PROPHET RETURNS TO THREATS AND WARNINGS, ADDRESSED CHIEFLY TO THE KINGDOM OF ISRAEL.

Back to the futures someone warned the Pharisees and they fled.

I'm almost to chapter 5. Exciting! I know you didn't want me to share so soon but I'm too excited.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 5, 2015)

I can't help it but I just have to many question.

Matthew 5:19-20
So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus is telling the disciples that they must be righteous to enter the Kingdom. Is this because they aren't "born again?"

What I'm getting at is if one is "born again" into the Kingdom at hand, why weren't the disciples? Was this before the Kingdom and they had different rules than us? Wasn't Jesus born a King or was he born a future king becoming King after his resurrection?
They had to be righteous and follow the Law to enter a future Kingdom. It's like they are being asked to live a certain way to enter the Kingdom and we enter the Kingdom and then live a certain way. We are first born again. Jesus doesn't offer them this simple grace formula.
If it is because they weren't in the era of grace, why even teach it to us? Why did Jesus allow grace for us but not for his disciples?

I'm trying to just read but chapter 5 left the Kingdom sorta. Unless the Beatitudes is teaching us who the subjects will be. This makes sense as it is all about humbleness to accept grace but then Jesus follows with telling the desciples to keep the law and to be righteous to enter the Kingdom. How long did they have to live righteous to enter the Kingdom? Did they go in and out of the Kingdom?
I like the grace method better. You're either born again or you aren't. You are either in the Kingdom or out. Once you are in it's for good.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 5, 2015)

Kingdom ( At Hand) means it is almost here. The storm clouds can be seen, and the wind is picking up, the storm is at hand!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 5, 2015)

Wow, I just read from chapter 3 to the end of 16. I've read it a few times before and bits and pieces here and there. It is important to read more than a few verses to get the whole picture.
It appears it was written for me but not to me. Especially all of the rules and commandments to follow. 
Matt. 13:52 stresses a good teacher brings out the Old Law and the new teachings. There is a lot about righteous living and the Kingdom. 
More importantly is following the Law with the Heart instead of the Lips. Do it for the right reason. Lots about doing things in private for the right reason and not for show.
I do realize one can't grasp everything all at once.
I didn't see much in this passage that convinced me of the Trinity belief but that's not the lesson of this passage.
This passage was all about God. The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven were both mentioned. Both in Matthews.
Matt. 6:33 Kingdom of God. Seeking, pursuing, be concerned about, or make it your first aim.
Matt. 7:21 Kingdom of Heaven. One must do the will of the Father to enter this Kingdom. If one is born again into a Kingdom by grace, why is he then required to keep doing the will of the Father?

Matt. 8:12 says the kingdom was prepared for the Israelites but the mystery is it was for the Gentiles, those poor of spirit.

The parables describing the Kingdom mention the Judgement Day and the End of the Age. The harvest will be separated. The catch of fish will be divided, good and evil at the end of the age.
How is the Kingdom of Heaven related to this judgement day and the end of the age?

For some reason Chapters 3-4 follow Isaiah's description of the Kingdom but chapter 5 changes the storyline or concept. Isaiah's foreknowledge is mentioned in 5 -16 but it doesn't flow the same.
The Kingdom does appear to be either at the birth of Jesus, his annointing, resurrection, or second coming.
Peter was given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven which I believe to be the Gospel and not the actual Kingdom.
I'm almost feeling a difference now from the Kingdom on Earth as it is in Heaven. Meaning Kingdom of God being on the Earth and the Kingdom of Heaven being in Heaven. Can't they be the same but different. Like God and Jesus?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 5, 2015)

Matthew 16:28-29
27"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. 28"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

I would like some clarity on verse 27, while it appears this has already happened was this in Heaven or on Earth?

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels,

For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father

"come in his Father's  glory" sounds different than "come with his angels in his Father's glory,

The first could be at the Ascension and the other sounds like the second coming. Could men on earth see Jesus coming into his Kingdom as the ascension?

"and will judge all people according to their deeds."

How was this done if Jesus has returned already?
What does the second coming have to do with ushering in the Kingdom of God?
Couldn't one believe the Kingdom is here as it was near way back then, and still believe the 2nd coming hasn't arrived?
Does the judging need to take place on the earth or can it be done in Heaven?

How can one be born into a Kingdom before being judged to enter this Kingdom?

Yet one wonders why my Southern Baptist brothers view things as they do.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 6, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 16:28-29
> 27"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. 28"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
> 
> I would like some clarity on verse 27, while it appears this has already happened was this in Heaven or on Earth?
> ...



Does Matthew 15:24 establish to whom the message was to at that time, and why the importance of all the urgency? I believe so, for the end of their world was coming soon...just 35-40 years away.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 6, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Does Matthew 15:24 establish to whom the message was to at that time, and why the importance of all the urgency? I believe so, for the end of their world was coming soon...just 35-40 years away.




Why was he sent only to the Lost Sheep of Israel when in fact the great mystery was to include the Gentiles?

What was the urgency in his return? I didn't see that mentioned.

Did Jesus "come in the glory of his Father" at his ascension to Heaven or 2nd coming to earth? I do agree he has already fulfilled this.

How do you explain "Judgement Day" and the "age of the 
end" when the harvest and catch will be separated?

What was the Kingdom coming to earth have to do with Jesus' 2nd coming in 70AD? Many who believe Jesus hasn't come again believe the Church is "thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven. You keep leading me to the 2nd coming in relation to God's Kingdom on Earth.

Now why would Jesus say my Kingdom is not of this world and flesh & blood can't enter my Kingdom if it's already here or even if it will ever be here on earth? Maybe world doesn't mean earth and it's just a spiritual kingdom. I agree it is a spiritual kingdom. The Kingdom of God/Heaven is spiritual. There will only be spirits in God's Kingdom. I just don't believe my spirit is there yet.
Jesus didn't go to his Father until his ascension. I won't go to the Father until my ascension. When my spirit leaves my flesh and blood. It will be a wonderful KINGDOM way greater than this kingdom on earth. It will be spiritual. It is not of this world. Flesh & blood can't go there.

I guess you see it as being the spiritual church. But it's members are still of this world and are still flesh and blood.
Can my born again spirit enter a kingdom while that spirit is still a part of my flesh & blood? Can it enter a Kingdom that is not of this world while residing in a body of flesh and blood?
Or will it enter the Kingdom at a future time when my spirit leaves my body of flesh & blood? A Kingdom not of this world.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 6, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why was he sent only to the Lost Sheep of Israel when in fact the great mystery was to include the Gentiles? What was the urgency in his return? I didn't see that mentioned.



 Jesus spent His earthly ministry ministering to the Jew. He preached the kingdom was at hand...so did John the Baptist. The urgency I was speaking of were the time statements such as "at hand". 





Artfuldodger said:


> Did Jesus "come in the glory of his Father" at his ascension to Heaven or 2nd coming to earth? I do agree he has already fulfilled this.


 
He came in glory at his return...on clouds of glory. 





Artfuldodger said:


> How do you explain "Judgement Day" and the "age of the
> end" when the harvest and catch will be separated?



 Art, if you want to know, read this link, maybe read matthew 24 first and compare the prophesy to this eyewitness account.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chariots-in-clouds.html





Artfuldodger said:


> What was the Kingdom coming to earth have to do with Jesus' 2nd coming in 70AD? Many who believe Jesus hasn't come again believe the Church is "thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven. You keep leading me to the 2nd coming in relation to God's Kingdom on Earth.



 We could spend lots of time on this, and Im sorry if it feels Im leading you in a direction, Im just explaining the scriptures as I see them...Im open to correction if I miss something.  Also related...
 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.






Artfuldodger said:


> Now why would Jesus say my Kingdom is not of this world and flesh & blood can't enter my Kingdom if it's already here or even if it will ever be here on earth? Maybe world doesn't mean earth and it's just a spiritual kingdom. I agree it is a spiritual kingdom. The Kingdom of God/Heaven is spiritual. There will only be spirits in God's Kingdom. I just don't believe my spirit is there yet.


 
 Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.






Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus didn't go to his Father until his ascension. I won't go to the Father until my ascension. When my spirit leaves my flesh and blood. It will be a wonderful KINGDOM way greater than this kingdom on earth. It will be spiritual. It is not of this world. Flesh & blood can't go there.


 I agree.




Artfuldodger said:


> I guess you see it as being the spiritual church. But it's members are still of this world and are still flesh and blood.
> Can my born again spirit enter a kingdom while that spirit is still a part of my flesh & blood? Can it enter a Kingdom that is not of this world while residing in a body of flesh and blood?
> Or will it enter the Kingdom at a future time when my spirit leaves my body of flesh & blood? A Kingdom not of this world.



 More questions than I can compute at this moment. I will say this. Most folks see us as a whole being the bride of Christ. I don't. I see Christ married to the Church, and us as the children, and this will continue forever and ever , amen!


----------



## hummerpoo (Jan 6, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why was he sent only to the Lost Sheep of Israel when in fact the great mystery was to include the Gentiles?



Who is Israel?  Jacob (Gen. 35:10)

Who is Jacob?  The grandson of Abraham (physically, but more importantly spiritually).

Who are the spiritual progeny of Abraham? Those who are born again (circumcised heart, Rm. 2:29/Gen. 12:1-3 starts the hard way to go/John 3:10 ties in the mystery)

What is the house of Israel?  All those who are born again.

What’s the proof?

Was the Canaanite woman born again?  Yes (Mat. 15:25,27)

Was Jesus sent to the Canaanite woman?  Yes (Mat. 15:28)


Now, Art, forget all of that; your teacher gave you an assignment:



gordon 2 said:


> Don't study for awhile. Instead dive into your baptismal water, wash yourself, wash your face, put on your finest and go meet Jesus at the alter. The only scripture you are allowed to read on your honeymoon, ( your not allowed to read church tracks), is Mathew 5, 6, 7 and the Acts of the Apostles by Luke.



I hope he can figure out how to break your connection to the internet until you have completed your assignment.

May God bless your work.

I’m outa here.


----------



## M80 (Jan 6, 2015)

Being born again is the same as getting saved. Jesus said Ye must be born again. The water means a natural birth from a woman. Her water breaks. Born again is spiritual. The bible says he has quickened us. That means to be made alive. You get completely saved the moment your spiritually baptized(born again). 

A thought, if you have been born once, you die twice, if you have been born twice,  you die once


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Jan 6, 2015)

Not sure if this has been mentioned, something to ponder, there is no "born again" in the scriptures. It actually reads "born from above".... But then Nicodemius interpreted what Jesus was saying as born again, this from his statement of not being able to get back in his mothers womb


----------



## M80 (Jan 6, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Not sure if this has been mentioned, something to ponder, there is no "born again" in the scriptures. It actually reads "born from above".... But then Nicodemius interpreted what Jesus was saying as born again, this from his statement of not being able to get back in his mothers womb



Um Jesus himself said marvel not what I say unto thee Ye  must be born again


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 7, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> Who is Israel?  Jacob (Gen. 35:10)
> 
> Who is Jacob?  The grandson of Abraham (physically, but more importantly spiritually).
> 
> ...



Quote[Now, Art, forget all of that; your teacher gave you an assignment:} End Quote


Bad hammerpoo. Bad. Bad.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 7, 2015)

mwilliams80 said:


> Being born again is the same as getting saved. Jesus said Ye must be born again. The water means a natural birth from a woman. Her water breaks. Born again is spiritual. The bible says he has quickened us. That means to be made alive. You get completely saved the moment your spiritually baptized(born again).
> 
> A thought, if you have been born once, you die twice, if you have been born twice,  you die once



Sorry "m suppose to be reading scripture and I'm on my way to Acts.
Just wanted your view on when the Kingdom starts or when we enter it.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 7, 2015)

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."



 Just reading..and came across this and thought of gordons pupil, maybe this will help.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 7, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."
> 
> 
> 
> Just reading..and came across this and thought of gordons pupil, maybe this will help.



My whole point is that our brother becomes no one's pupil for a brief period of time-- and especially not mine! The only teacher I was hoping to suggest to Art in his study was  Jesus--taking the time to spend time with Jesus, just Jesus.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 7, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."
> 
> Just reading..and came across this and thought of gordons pupil, maybe this will help.



Postcard: I haven't made it to Acts as I'm still reading Matthews.

Is it possible the Kingdom is present but yet futuristic at the same time? Will there be some future transformation or resurrection? 
I'm thinking it is "already" and "not yet."

Maybe I'm trying to make a compromise between my old beliefs and ya'lls beliefs.

I really can see it both ways. I really do understand ya'lls point of view about the kingdom being now/present/spiritual. The kingdom may very well be present and it may very well be spiritual, but it isn't the Church. I may very well be born again into God's Kingdom but it isn't the Church.

There will be some type of future transformation when I die a physical death.
My transformation my be on a different day than yours but I will experience one. 
When some people who aren't in the Kingdom die a futuristic physical death, they will not experience this transformation.(something about that futuristic sheep goats seperation thing) Now perhaps this isn't when I'll be born again but there will be some type of transformation of my body/soul/spirit or at least two of those entities.

Matthew 25:34
33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 

One of my problems is what I see happening to the goats. They are separated at a future time  as in the parables of the wheat/tares and the catch/fish. 
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Why is this separation in the future but ours isn't?

Grandfather left this verse for Grasshopper:

Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.

Kingdom of God? Kingdom of Heaven? Kingdom of the Son?
Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven?
Dividing the goats and sheep at inheritance time?
Judgement day? Age of end?
Resurrection? Our inheritance? God's inheritance? 
Flesh and blood can't inherit God's Kingdom?
My KINGDOM isn't of this world. (from Jesus)
That which is corruptible will put on incorruptibility, and that which is dying will put on immortality?
Soma pneumatikon, or, body spiritual, not spirit body?
It is planted in a decaying condition and it is raised clean?

I'm pretty sure somehow the kingdom is here and I'm pretty sure the KINGDOM is in my future. 
First I must shed my flesh and become incorruptible.
Right now I still sin. Sinning isn't a part of the KINGDOM. It is allowed in the kingdom.
I was born again to inherit the KINGDOM. Today I'm in the kingdom. I still feel a need or command to shed my physical body or change it into a body spiritual  to totally enter the KINGDOM. My spirit might be in the kingdom but my body/soul isn't. 
I'm still connected. (three parts?)

What about the lost sinners who aren't in the kingdom? Are they pre-doomed to eternal death or nashing of the teeth? Can they repent and inherit the future KINGDOM?
When will this day come when they can no longer enter the KINGDOM? When will the final division of the goats and sheep happen? 

Big postcard huh?


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Jan 7, 2015)

mwilliams80 said:


> Um Jesus himself said marvel not what I say unto thee Ye  must be born again


the word we know as again is this word in the greek;
Strong's Concordance
anóthen: from above
Original Word: á¼„Î½Ï‰Î¸ÎµÎ½
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: anóthen
Phonetic Spelling: (an'-o-then)
Short Definition: from above, from the beginning, again
Definition: (a) from above, from heaven, (b) from the beginning, from their origin (source), from of old, (c) again, anew.

â—„ John 3:7 â–º
Text Analysis
Strong's	Transliteration	Greek	English	Morphology
3361 [e]	mÄ“	Î¼á½´	not	Adv
2296 [e]	thaumasÄ“s	Î¸Î±Ï…Î¼Î¬Ïƒá¿ƒÏ‚	Do wonder	V-ASA-2S
3754 [e]	hoti	á½…Ï„Î¹	that	Conj
3004 [e]	eipon	Îµá¼¶Ï€ÏŒÎ½	I said	V-AIA-1S
4771 [e]	soi	ÏƒÎ¿Î¹	to you,	PPro-D2S
1163 [e]	Dei	Î”Îµá¿–	It is necessary for	V-PIA-3S
4771 [e]	hymas	á½‘Î¼á¾¶Ï‚	you	PPro-A2P
1080 [e]	gennÄ“thÄ“nai	Î³ÎµÎ½Î½Î·Î¸á¿†Î½Î±Î¹	to be born	V-ANP
*509 [e]	anÅ�then	á¼„Î½Ï‰Î¸ÎµÎ½.	from above.*	Adv
Greek Texts 

Translated from above or from the top in all places except twice here in John chp 3


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 7, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Postcard: I haven't made it to Acts as I'm still reading Matthews.
> 
> Is it possible the Kingdom is present but yet futuristic at the same time? Will there be some future transformation or resurrection?
> I'm thinking it is "already" and "not yet."
> ...







 Matthew 5:20 (KJV)

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 7, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Postcard: I haven't made it to Acts as I'm still reading Matthews.
> 
> Is it possible the Kingdom is present but yet futuristic at the same time? Will there be some future transformation or resurrection?
> I'm thinking it is "already" and "not yet."
> ...



Art, you know I believe everything has happened. I determined that from  questioning these same scriptures, along with Isaiah and the prophets. 

 While I agree with the majority of folks here that the Kingdom has come, they disagree with me that Christ came too. We read the same scripture and they put some of it in the future, so I am the wrong person to ask if some of this could be in the future, because for the life of me I can't find where any of this is in our future. I believe we are living in Revelation 22, and that continues forever....so parts that are supposed to be future, you will have to determine, or ask someone else...I hope you are still excited over this study you are doing, and I'm sorry if my attempt to cut up by referring to you as Gordon's pupil was offensive to you or Gordon.
 May God bless you with understanding.


----------



## M80 (Jan 7, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> the word we know as again is this word in the greek;
> Strong's Concordance
> anóthen: from above
> Original Word: á¼„Î½Ï‰Î¸ÎµÎ½
> ...



Born again or born from above is fine with me. It is a second birth. He hath quickened us. Quicken means " to be made alive". And this life is everlasting.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Jan 8, 2015)

mwilliams80 said:


> Born again or born from above is fine with me. It is a second birth. He hath quickened us. Quicken means " to be made alive". And this life is everlasting.


Me too, just pointed it out to add to discussion.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 8, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, you know I believe everything has happened. I determined that from  questioning these same scriptures, along with Isaiah and the prophets.
> 
> While I agree with the majority of folks here that the Kingdom has come, they disagree with me that Christ came too. We read the same scripture and they put some of it in the future, so I am the wrong person to ask if some of this could be in the future, because for the life of me I can't find where any of this is in our future. I believe we are living in Revelation 22, and that continues forever....so parts that are supposed to be future, you will have to determine, or ask someone else...I hope you are still excited over this study you are doing, and I'm sorry if my attempt to cut up by referring to you as Gordon's pupil was offensive to you or Gordon.
> May God bless you with understanding.



Perhaps like the Jews I'm expecting something so great that I can't see it. I'm expecting streets of gold and beautiful gardens. I'm expecting some type of personal transformation/resurrection.
I'm expecting a day when the tares will be separated from the wheat. I'm expecting an end of age, a judgement day.
Perhaps the Jews missed it by looking for something too great. Physical if you will instead of spiritual. 
Maybe this is all that there is. After all the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the world was here on the Earth.
I'm still gonna wait until I die and check out the "other" Kingdom. I'm still hoping for the one I've hoped far my whole life.  The one whose Kingdom isn't of this world. The one flesh and blood can't enter. The one Brother Alcorn describes.

Reading Revelation 22, which is the last chapter of the Bible, it sounds like an invitation. It doesn't sound futuristic but like it is describing a future event. 
Like verse 15;
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

That doesn't sound like a future Kingdom to me.

verse 18
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

Nope not yet about the Kingdom but a warning to those who might want to enter.

I believe there will come a day when we will not be offered any more invitations or warnings. I believe a time will come when there won't be any sexually immoral, murderers, or idolators outside the gates. 
I believe they will be separated and there will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth. One day the tares will be separated and then and only then can the real wheat enter the KINGDOM. Until then, we must let them grow with the wheat. We still have tares.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 8, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Matthew 5:20 (KJV)
> 
> 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.



I don't even know what that is suppose to mean. You have me read chapters from Matthews about entering the Kingdom and quite frankly it scares me. Do this, don't do that, be righteous, anger is murder, lust is adultery, no excuse for divorce except adultery, etc.

The whole bit of it reminds me of Leviticus. Rule, rules, and more rules about entering the Kingdom. 

If my righteousness is what will get me in Heaven, I'm not gonna make it. 
I do like Matthews when the rules stop and the lesson changes to humbleness and meekness and forgiveness and most of all love. 
But I hate the rules. I thought we were beyond that with the coming of Jesus. His first or 2nd coming. 

Matthews 5:44-45
44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 

Tell that to the Christians on the Political forum who want to kill Muslims. Tell them to love their enemies. 
Will those Christians not be "sons of the Father?"
Were they not born again?  Don't they have a new spirit?
Maybe we sometimes don't follow our new spirit but it doesn't remove our new spirit when we don't follow God's commandents. 
I think even you see being born again as something you aren't quite assure of. I can't understand any Christian who is born again not having assurance of salvation.
You don't become born again, not born again, and then born again because of not following all of those commandments in Matthews. 
I don't even know why they are even presented unless they pertained to the Jews before Christ died and not us.

We Gentiles never had a Covenant with God anyway until the New Covenant. Why didn't we need a covenant to show us we couldn't follow rules and thus needed salvation?
If we never had a covenant, why do we need salvation from sin?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 8, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:
			
		

> I believe there will come a day when we will not be offered any more invitations or warnings. I believe a time will come when there won't be any sexually immoral, murderers, or idolators outside the gates.




I can't believe without scripture. I use to, but now I lean on the word and not tradition.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 8, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't even know what that is suppose to mean. You have me read chapters from Matthews about entering the Kingdom and quite frankly it scares me. Do this, don't do that, be righteous, anger is murder, lust is adultery, no excuse for divorce except adultery, etc.
> 
> The whole bit of it reminds me of Leviticus. Rule, rules, and more rules about entering the Kingdom.
> 
> ...




Acts 4:19-20King James Version (KJV)

19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.

20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.
----------------------------


I read Jesus saying just the opposite as you read, in Matthew 5:20 -48 especially.  Jesus says,   " You have learned how it was said to your ancestors" (my words from here on ) ...  you do this and do that and don't do this and don't do that, (rules) -- well  I'm telling you now that  the general frame of mind, a change of heart, regards doing what is good and righteous  is more important. 

So that in this case , of a change of mind and a change of heart Jesus, my example, practices what he preaches... as witnessed by the Gospels and his ongoing ministry via the church and as we share here. 

So it is not your righteousness that will get you into the Kingdom, it is Christ's!

I love the people on the Political forum so much. I will not comment. 

I've said enough.


----------



## hummerpoo (Jan 8, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't even know what that is suppose to mean. You have me read chapters from Matthews about entering the Kingdom and quite frankly it scares me. Do this, don't do that, be righteous, anger is murder, lust is adultery, no excuse for divorce except adultery, etc.
> 
> The whole bit of it reminds me of Leviticus. Rule, rules, and more rules about entering the Kingdom.
> 
> ...



I think you are getting started.  Try reading it a few more times, remembering that it's not about men; it is God's revelation of Himself.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Jan 8, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I can't believe without scripture. I use to, but now I lean on the word and not tradition.


Hello Hobbs, your change of belief about eternal punishment, are you "in the closet" or "out of the closet" on this outside of woodys? In my circle, everybody I know believes in he11. If asked, I would state my belief, but I refrain from voicing that publicly because I don't wish to be the target of the haters


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 8, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Hobbs, your change of belief about eternal punishment, are you "in the closet" or "out of the closet" on this outside of woodys? In my circle, everybody I know believes in he11. If asked, I would state my belief, but I refrain from voicing that publicly because I don't wish to be the target of the haters



Well, I don't Go Tell It On The Mountain, but I have spoken to two of my really close preacher friends about it, and ofcourse my wife. If asked or if it come up in discussion Im not afraid to talk about it, just as being preterist. I dont push it on people, but will gladly point out the scripture.

 It usually starts out like this: 
 Then turns into this: 
 Then after a little of this : 
 and this :
 The discussion will end with this: 
 Then occasionaly Ill give them a little of this: 
 And walk away like this:


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Jan 8, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Well, I don't Go Tell It On The Mountain, but I have spoken to two of my really close preacher friends about it, and ofcourse my wife. If asked or if it come up in discussion Im not afraid to talk about it, just as being preterist. I dont push it on people, but will gladly point out the scripture.
> 
> It usually starts out like this:
> Then turns into this:
> ...


Reminds of my childhood story books. With pictures


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 8, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't even know what that is suppose to mean. You have me read chapters from Matthews about entering the Kingdom and quite frankly it scares me. Do this, don't do that, be righteous, anger is murder, lust is adultery, no excuse for divorce except adultery, etc.
> 
> The whole bit of it reminds me of Leviticus. Rule, rules, and more rules about entering the Kingdom.
> 
> ...




I did not thank you for your post card. It is appreciated. I must confess I overlooked this little detail in it. I think what you say here is very important. This:

I do like Matthews when the rules stop and the lesson changes to humbleness and meekness and forgiveness and most of all love. 

The rule Art is love. You got it.  In  Matthew 5:20 -48 what you call rules are aspects of love in my view. 


I understand that Jesus says check your anger or exercise your patience.  Treat people with respect-- don't have a hard heart concerning others. Find agreement with adversaries-- be a peacemaker. If you present yourself as loving God ( a scripture genius, a church pillar), and have a quarrel with someone,  a brother, a family member, --repair the latter relationship first. Love others, even in your disagreements.

So Art you have it in your heart, in your spirit, but what Jesus says in the Beatitudes are not rules as in do this, do that. Yet, I'd say they are elements of the rule of love. ( Just the same things Paul says concerning love, but using different wording. ) 

But I'm ok with rules or conventions in our kingdom-- as in the rules or conventions of the road in the kingdom-- because the rule of the road in the Kingdom is love.

 Again, Thanks for the postcard.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 9, 2015)

Postcard: 
About the time the 7th angel blows his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished.  Perhaps as Hobbs believes this has already happened.
John was to prophesy his revelation. He was to measure the Temple in Jerusalem. He was to measure the altar but not the outer court which was given to the Gentiles for 42 months. The Gentiles trampled Jerusalem for 42 months or as Hobbs believes, they already have. Two witnesses/Lampstands were placed before the Lord of the Earth. They will or did prophesy. When they have finished their testimony, the Beast will kill them. God will resurrect them and they will go to Heaven in a cloud.
A woman gives birth to a Son. The Dragon waits to eat him. God snatches him up. He will rule all nations.

Now back to the Kingdom.
Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice shouting across the heavens, "It has come at last--salvation and power and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown down to earth--the one who accuses them before our God day and night.

Satan battled Heaven and was defeated. Satan and his angels were cast to the Earth. Satan went after the Mother of the ruler. She escaped so Satan went after Christians.

Satan can go after Christians? I hope Hobbs is right!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 9, 2015)

In Revelation, I see God and the authority of his Christ. I don't see Oneness.
I'll add more in the Oneness thread.

In Revelation about the Mother, Son, and Dragon.
Was the Mother the Church or Mary?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 9, 2015)

I must confess Grandfather but Grasshopper never made it to Acts.
The Spirit lead him to Revelation. I'm hoping he leads Grasshopper to Acts soon. The Spirit said to me, if you have ears then hear. Grasshopper has too many ears.

Revelation 6:9
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
11 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
( I must admit, it appears the one sitting on the throne has given the Lamb some authority. Authority to use wrath and judgement. 
This is truly a revelation. Amen for the Kingdom.)
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?"

(Hobbs, you might be on to something, do you have ears?)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 9, 2015)

What's amazing to me is how every Biblical belief looks different according to what "ears" or "eyes" I am using when I read it.
I'll start with Kingdom Theology or things concerning when the Kingdom comes.
Next depending on my ears & eyes if the Trinity or Oneness. Then comes freewill and Predestination. Next is free grace and Lordship salvation. Next is Preterism and Futurism.
It's all based on what ears or eyes I'm wearing when I read the Scriptures. 
I really can see or hear it; all of the above. I can't commit. That is what is confusing to me. Why do most of y'all only have one set of ears and eyes? Why was I given multiple sets of ears/eyes?

I don't believe it is from Satan. Oh yeah, is Satan defeated or not?
See what I'm talking about? To me this is the great mystery that I would like for God to answer. Why did God task me with so many riddles and yet give most of the others the answers.
Why have the others seen the light but not me? Why does everyone see the Kingdom as now but I see it as a future event?
Why does Hobbs see the second coming as 70AD but many others don't? Why does Gr8bldr & me see Jesus as the Son of God instead of the Trinity? Why does Evergreen and Harbuck see Jesus as his Father? Why does Gem see God in total control?
Oh how I yearn to see everything in God's control yet I wonder why he would cause all of these differences.

Grasshopper is having a bad time. It's going to take more than 24 Elders to open my correct set of eyes and ears. I'm like the four creatures in Revelation, I have too many eyes.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 9, 2015)

A star is given the key to the Abyss. Smoke rises from the Abyss.
Out of the smoke come locusts with the power of scorpions. These locusts were not allowed to harm grass and plants but people without the seal of God.
They weren't allowed to kill them but only harm them for five months. People will seek death but can't fine it.
(Like when we dropped the Atom bombs on Japan)
These scorpion like locusts had a king. He was the angel of the Abyss.

How can someone read this stuff and believe in Free will?
It's all prophesy. It's John's revelation.
God guides the angel of the Abyss.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 9, 2015)

John was actually in his revelation. He ate one of the scrolls. It tasted sweet but was sour to his stomach.
He was given a reed to measure the Temple in Jerusalem.

Now my question is; did John do this? Did he live to measure the Temple in Jerusalem? He saw himself doing this among other things in his revelation. John didn't have a revelation of what others would see but what he would see. 

Who else has the eyes to see this revelation as John's revelation?
Revelation was what John saw himself seeing. 

Again I must admire the eyes of Hobbs.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 10, 2015)

John wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside.

John was in his revelation. His revelation was what he would see. He saw himself weeping. 

If you had a revelation of what you would see and it came true then it would actually happen some time after your revelation. Not thousands of years later after your are dead and gone. Now if you had a revelation of things happening to future occupants, then it's understandable you won't be around to be a part of your revelation.

John on the other hand saw himself in his revelation.

I know I'm off topic but the Spirit has place eyes upon me to reveal. If John has an unchangeable revelation then life is going according to God's unchangeable plan. Can we change John's revelation? Can we change ours?


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 10, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I must confess Grandfather but Grasshopper never made it to Acts.
> The Spirit lead him to Revelation. I'm hoping he leads Grasshopper to Acts soon. The Spirit said to me, if you have ears then hear. Grasshopper has too many ears.
> 
> Revelation 6:9
> ...



 On your way back stop at Ephesians 4 and from the waters there wet your ears---both of them. You really only have two.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 10, 2015)

http://www.mediafire.com/view/8kt3gwj9ndqfhck/NEW+HEAVEN+AND+NEW+EARTH.pdf


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 10, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> On your way back stop at Ephesians 4 and from the waters there wet your ears---both of them. You really only have two.



I stopped by Ephesians 4. 

Ephesians 4:14
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.
17 With the Lord's authority I say this: Live no longer as the Gentiles do, for they are hopelessly confused.
18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.

In all honesty I was less confused when I was ignorant. The more I understand, the less I understand. The more I hear, the less I see. Ignorance is(was) bliss!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 10, 2015)

I read all of Ephesians 4 and some of chapter 5. It was mostly just more rules. Rules that must be followed to enter the Kingdom. 
I guess that is the confusing part of salvation. I do want to follow the rules now that I'm a Christian but I don't always follow the rules.
I thought grace was what I needed because I couldn't follow the rules. Jesus died for my sins. Yet deep down in the scriptures hidden in Matthews and Ephesians are rules. Rules that if aren't followed will keep me out of the Kingdom. The confusing part is, I thought I was already an heir. 
We haven't even got to the rules in Corinthians that will keep one from the Kingdom.
Hopefully the "and such were some of you, but you were washed" speaks the truth of the Gospel. The Gospel that Jesus taught which was about his Father's Kingdom.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 10, 2015)

Ephesians 4:30
And do not bring sorrow to God's Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption.

Yeah, I'm in the Kingdom!

Then that verse is followed by more rules,rules, rules which is followed by;

Ephesians 5:5-6
For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Don't be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.

Booh, I'm back out of the Kingdom.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 10, 2015)

Let's continue with rules that can keep "born again" Christians out of the Kingdom they are already born into:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or anyone practicing homosexuality,
10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

How can one be born again into a Kingdom before they've been given the chance to see if they can keep the rules that are required to stay in the Kingdom?
How can they be in the Kingdom  if they haven't seen any results from the fruit of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? It's an Enigma
unless the Kingdom is futuristic.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 10, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> http://www.mediafire.com/view/8kt3gwj9ndqfhck/NEW+HEAVEN+AND+NEW+EARTH.pdf



I wish I could see Scripture  as figurative and spiritual as you do.
How do you decide what is figurative and what is literal?
How in the world would someone hundreds of years ago figure out the scripture with such a limited amount of education? No doubt we are gaining truth by each generation.

Just a couple of questions though.
When will you be judged?
What will happen to your spirit when you die a physical death?
Remembering your stance in the homosexual thread and all of the scriptural sin lists, what will keep a born again person out of the present Kingdom?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 10, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I wish I could see Scripture  as figurative and spiritual as you do.
> How do you decide what is figurative and what is literal?
> How in the world would someone hundreds of years ago figure out the scripture with such a limited amount of education? No doubt we are gaining truth by each generation.
> 
> ...



1. I was judged @ Calvary. 


2.It / I go straight to the Father.

3.Nothing .


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2015)

I've been reading in Acts. I've come to the conclusion that I'm a believer of Premillennialism. Perhaps an old Southern Baptist belief:

Premillennialism, in Christian eschatology, is the belief that Jesus will literally and physically return to the earth before Christ's reign for 1,000 years during a golden age of peace. This return is referred to as the Second Coming, in which believers will be resurrected to meet Christ during his return. (The Second Coming event is altogether distinct and separate from the Rapture, wherein Christ does not physically return to earth, but as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, he appears "in the air" to resurrect the bodies of the Christians, as well as to cause those Christians still living to be "caught up to meet Him."[1]) The doctrine is called "premillennialism" because it holds that Jesus' physical return to earth will occur prior to the inauguration of the "millennium". It is distinct from the other forms of Christian eschatology such as postmillennialism or amillennialism, which view the millennial rule as occurring either before the second coming, or as being figurative and non-temporal. For the last century, the belief has been common in Christian fundamentalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premillennialism

Matthew 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.                                                                                                                             34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2015)

“The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed…” 
The good seed is the sons of the kingdom.
The kingdom itself does not appear until “the harvest…at the end of the age”


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've been reading in Acts. I've come to the conclusion that I'm a believer of Premillennialism. Perhaps an old Southern Baptist belief:
> 
> Premillennialism, in Christian eschatology, is the belief that Jesus will literally and physically return to the earth before Christ's reign for 1,000 years during a golden age of peace. This return is referred to as the Second Coming, in which believers will be resurrected to meet Christ during his return. (The Second Coming event is altogether distinct and separate from the Rapture, wherein Christ does not physically return to earth, but as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, he appears "in the air" to resurrect the bodies of the Christians, as well as to cause those Christians still living to be "caught up to meet Him."[1]) The doctrine is called "premillennialism" because it holds that Jesus' physical return to earth will occur prior to the inauguration of the "millennium". It is distinct from the other forms of Christian eschatology such as postmillennialism or amillennialism, which view the millennial rule as occurring either before the second coming, or as being figurative and non-temporal. For the last century, the belief has been common in Christian fundamentalism.
> 
> ...



Never pictured you as a fundamentalist. Interesting.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Never pictured you as a fundamentalist. Interesting.



Mostly in the "end times" events. I believe in the bodily resurrection, ascension,  and physical return of Christ and saints. Not so much the rapture though. 

This belief does present a dilemma because it does appear Jesus returned in 70AD. 
I also have trouble understanding why souls will go to Heaven to return to an Earthly Kingdom.
Your belief does explain everything better. Perhaps one day I will be where you are. Then I'll understand this life being the spiritual Kingdom of God. 
Even if I believed the Kingdom is spiritual, I would still believe it is futuristic. I'm OK with the Kingdom being on Earth as it is in Heaven but only as futuristic.
Maybe that's why I'm not a Preterist.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Mostly in the "end times" events. I believe in the bodily resurrection, ascension,  and physical return of Christ and saints. Not so much the rapture though.
> 
> This belief does present a dilemma because it does appear Jesus returned in 70AD.
> I also have trouble understanding why souls will go to Heaven to return to an Earthly Kingdom.
> ...



You base this on indoctrination or personal study?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 13, 2015)

■In Matthew 10:23, Jesus told his disciples that He would return before they had finished going through all the towns of Israel.
 ■In Matthew 16:27-28, Jesus told his disciples that He would return before some of them had died.
 ■In Matthew 26:64, Jesus told Caiaphas, the scribes, and the elders that they would personally see Him returning in judgment.
 ■In Luke 21:22 and 32, Jesus told his disciples that all prophecy would be fulfilled in THEIR generation. In Luke 21:36 Jesus further emphasized that the prophetic events He just listed were ABOUT TO HAPPEN. (See Young’s Literal Translation.)
 ■In 1 Peter 4:7, Peter said that the “end of all things” was at hand (for him and his contemporaries).
 ■In 1 John 2:18, John insisted that it was “the last hour.”
 ■In Revelation 1:1-3 and 22:6, 12, 20 Jesus said to the first-century Christians that the events of Revelation “must shortly take place” and further that his return was “soon.”


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> You base this on indoctrination or personal study?



A little of each I guess. It's funny that you have changed your beliefs on "end times" and I have changed my beliefs about the Trinity. We both say we did this by personal study yet we both didn't change all of our views.

Beyond that I don't really know. I think I may be like the Jews who were waiting on a literal King. They pictured the messiah sitting on a literal throne.
I'm waiting on a literal Kingdom or at least something grand.
I'm picturing literal streets of gold, rivers, gardens, and beautiful music. I, like the Jews, may be looking for something that is already here yet in a spiritual manner. A spiritual kingdom. A spiritual resurrection. A spiritual ascension into a Kingdom already upon us.
This does make more sense in the respect that many Christians believe when we die our souls go to Heaven, then return to get resurrected. Why the need for the return? Why come back from a spiritual Kingdom? Why not stay with God? Why would Jesus need to physically come back to the Earth? Why did he need to return in 70AD?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> You base this on indoctrination or personal study?



Is it possible that there is more than one "end of time?" Could peter be talking about our physical death? That still doesn't explain Jesus telling the disciples some of them will still be here. 
Have you ever got an answer from a futurist about this?

When you see the literal accounts of the end, why do you see the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD as literal?
When you see so much in the Bible as figurative, Why is this literal?

Why can't we have more than one "last days" or "end times?"

Peter wanted the readers to understand that the heavens and earth that exist now were reserved for fire, just as the earth had once been destroyed by water. He further stated that the day of the Lord would catch many off guard and that the heavens would pass away. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10).

Why is that literal for Jerusalem but not for a future event? Why can't we have both?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why did he need to return in 70AD?



It was judgement day. Judgement on Israel, and 
Israel being the adulturous wife. She was divorced and the church became the new wife. 
 Also his return was the final part of the atonement process. If studied atonement was not complete until the high priest came out of the holiest of holies and announced salvation. Therefore it required a sacrifice, a presentation of the blood to God, then coming out to the people to announce the sacrifice was accepted and salvation was made.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2015)

Why can't there be more forms of God's Kingdom? Can't it be God has a Universal Kingdom that has been here forever, a Mediatorial Kingdom, and a future Kingdom in Heaven?

Perhaps a dispensational kingdom if you will manifested differently for different times.

The Mediatorial kingdom of Jesus could have been the kingdom at Hand John preaced about. A Spiritual kingdom one is born into which grants one the inheritance of a future literal Kingdom.
A future reign on earth perhaps. A future kingdom in Heaven perhaps with streets of gold and mansions.

I just don't feel that what I'm in right now this moment is the same Kingdom I will experience after my physical death/resurrection.

I'm born again into a spiritual kingdom with the promise of inheriting a Kingdom. When I'm in that Kingdom there will be no doubt that I'm in a Kingdom.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is it possible that there is more "end of time?"


 Only if one thinks God can lie.



Artfuldodger said:


> Could peter be talking about our physical death? That still doesn't explain Jesus telling the disciples some of them will still be here.
> Have you ever got an answer from a futurist about this?


 No, futurist ignore the obvious time stamps in scriptures. When cornered they go two ways. Im an heretic or eschatology shouldnt be talked about. 




Artfuldodger said:


> When you see the literal accounts of the end, why do you see the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD as literal?
> When you see so much in the Bible as figurative, Why is this literal?


 One must recognize apocalyptic language. Theres many references in the Old Testament of prophecy of destruction that we all accept as past, but the language sounds like the whole world was going to end...its very exaggerated language...much like we find in Revelation.




Artfuldodger said:


> Why can't we have more than one "last days" or "end times?"


  Because the kingdom of Christ is forever and ever Amen!



Artfuldodger said:


> Peter wanted the readers to understand that the heavens and earth that exist now were reserved for fire, just as the earth had once been destroyed by water. He further stated that the day of the Lord would catch many off guard and that the heavens would pass away. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10).
> 
> Why is that literal for Jerusalem but not for a future event? why can't we have both?



 Because there is only one prophecy of one event.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why can't there be more forms of God's Kingdom? Can't it be God has a Universal Kingdom that has been here forever, a Mediatorial Kingdom, and a future Kingdom in Heaven?
> 
> Perhaps a dispensational kingdom if you will manifested differently for different times.
> 
> ...



More than one simply isnt biblical.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 13, 2015)

The second coming is supposed to be an event that we as believers can look forward to. It is a time when our battles with the flesh, with sin and death, are supposed to be over (1 Corinthians 15:51-55). This battle is still going on is it not? 


Answer: If the battle is still going on, Jesus hasn't really saved us yet. His victory is not complete. We are only partially saved. And then the Jews would be right in their suggestion that Jesus is not the Messiah since He hasn't really fulfilled all Old Testament prophecy yet, and proven that He is the Messiah. His failure to fulfill all those things in a physical literal way is the reason many Jews rejected Him. It was not physical battles that He fought for us. His kingdom is not of this world, else His servants would fight with physical weapons in physical battles. His warfare was spiritual and His weapons were spiritual. And those final ultimate conflicts have been engaged and settled. Christ has conquered. The kingdom is ours. Satan's dominion over us has been shattered and crushed. 


We need to remember what kind of death is our worst enemy (spiritual death) and what kind of resurrection is the "better resurrection" (spiritual life). Has Christ conquered? Or are we still waiting for Him to prove His Messiahship? Do the Jews have a justifiable excuse for refusing to accept Jesus as Messiah simply because He hasn't fulfilled the promises physically and literally? Or were those prophecies dealing with the spiritual realities of the kingdom? Did Jesus promise us a physical paradise with no physical pain or suffering (like the Jews expected)? Or did He promise us spiritual victory? In Luke 21:16-19 Jesus said that in the soon-to-come tribulation some of them would be "put to death," but also that "not a hair of your head will perish." Is this contradictory, or was He speaking spiritually of their soul's preservation through the coming persecution? Verse 19 says it all: "By your perseverance you will win your souls." Jesus never promised them a physical paradise and materialistic, sensual delights. He promised soul salvation. That is here now. It is reality. When these physical bodies die we continue on in His presence in our spiritual body. 


The wages of sin is death. Is this "death" physical or spiritual? It could not be physical death since we all die a physical death, righteous and sinner alike. The cost of sin is spiritual death, for which Christ paid the price for all those who are His. We need to start putting our spiritual glasses on and setting our minds on the things above in the heavenly places. The heavenly kingdom cannot be entered or lived in by sensual and materialistically-oriented folks. 


"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor. 15:50). We have inherited that kingdom. The final enemy (spiritual death) has been defeated. All enemies raised up against Christ and His people have been conquered. The battle is over!


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 13, 2015)

Can not there be a double fulfillment in prophesy? Why can't the prophesy concerning the destruction of Jerusalem be fulfilled in both 70AD, and sometime in the future? 

Answer: One reason is because Jesus said, concerning Jerusalem in Matthew 24:21, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Christ clearly taught that the tribulations that were to happen at the fall of Jerusalem shall never be as great as it would be in 70AD.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 13, 2015)

Can flesh and blood inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.15:50)? 

Answer: By "flesh and blood", this verse is referring to the "natural man": 


1 Corinthians 2:14: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 

The natural man cannot inherit the Kingdom, because they are spiritually discerned. A parallel verse to 1 Cor.15:50 is 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:


1 Corinthians 6:9-10, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." 

As you can see, in place of "flesh and blood", this verse uses the "unrighteous", which is what the natural man is, or the spiritually dead, or those of the "flesh". Another parallel verse, which explains the "flesh" of 1 Cor.15:50, is Galatians 5:19-21:


Galatians 5:19-21, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." 
Only Christians "that overcometh shall inherit all things" (Revelation 21:7).


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2015)

Research "Mediatorial Kingdom."

Some of the believers are amillennial and some are premillennial.

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/msj23l.pdf

http://www.sonlightclass.com/Notes/Kingdom/Lesson03.pdf

I haven't read the following series but I plan to:

http://verticallivingministries.com...clain-on-the-greatness-of-the-kingdom-part-1/

http://verticallivingministries.com...clain-on-the-greatness-of-the-kingdom-part-2/

http://verticallivingministries.com...clain-on-the-greatness-of-the-kingdom-part-3/


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 13, 2015)

What did the term “kingdom” mean in the Old Testament? 

It seems to me that much of the scholarly discussion of the kingdom of God is at such an abstract level as to be essentially meaningless. Alva McClain has well stated: “The great ideas of the Bible are concrete rather than abstract, and such terms as the kingdom of God are intended to convey meanings which are pertinent to actual situations in the world of reality with which men are somewhat familiar.”38 My goal here is to examine the term “kingdom” in a concrete way. 

It is customary to speak of a kingdom (basileia) as being made up of two component parts: [1] an authority to rule and [2] the realm or territory over which the king’s reign is exercised.39 Vine, for example, speaks of the kingdom as being [1] sovereignty, royal power, dominion and [2] the territory or people over whom a king rules.40 Strong similarly states that the kingdom consists of “royal power, kingship, dominion, rule” and “the territory subject to the rule of a king.”41 Bauer, Gingrich and Danker call the kingdom [1] “kingship, royal power, royal rule” and [2] “the territory ruled over by a king.”42

This two-fold division undoubtedly stems from the Scriptural two-fold depiction of the kingdom. It is first of all viewed as a universal, eternal, timeless kingdom (1 Chron. 29:11-12; Ps. 10:16; 29:10).43 The kingdom is second of all viewed as a “theocratic” or “mediatorial” kingdom.44 These two perspectives are aspects of one holistic kingdom and should not be rigidly separated into separate kingdoms; indeed, Daniel 7:13-14, 27 combines them.


https://bible.org/article/kingdom-matthew


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2015)

Revised Dispensationalists—Thy Kingdom Come!
They believe that Jesus offered the kingdom to the Jews, but that Jesus’s own people rejected the offer, and so, instead of establishing the kingdom, Jesus postponed it until the second coming. In the meantime, he established the “mystery form” of the kingdom during the “inter-advent age,” in which “Christ rules spiritually in the hearts of believers without fulfilling the prophecies of the kingdom on earth.”

Reformed Theology—Thy Kingdom Came (Mainly)!
They focus on the belief that the kingdom has already arrived.
First, it is spiritual. That is, it is not of this world. 
The kingdom of Christ, under the present dispensation, therefore, is not worldly even in the sense in which the ancient theocracy was of this world.
It is a kingdom which is to come, yes. But it is also a kingdom which has come. 
 ‘The kingdom of God is among you’ and ‘within you’; the kingdom of God is in every true Christian. He reigns in the Church when she acknowledges Him truly. The kingdom has come, the kingdom is coming, the kingdom is yet to come. 

Historic Premillennialists and Progressive Dispensationalists:
Thy Kingdom—Already but Not Yet!
Refused to be boxed into either a “kingdom future” or a “kingdom now” emphasis. 
The kingdom of God has already arrived in an inaugural form, but has not yet fully been consummated, and will not be until Christ’s second coming.
Progressive dispensationalists, in particular, claim that they offer “a corrective” to both revised dispensationalism and covenant theology because “covenant theologians of the past have tended to overemphasize the ‘already’ in their critiques of dispensationalism, while underemphasizing the ‘not yet.’

 In 1958, J. Dwight Pentecost wrote that it was “almost impossible to make one’s way” through the maze of interpretations.

https://bible.org/article/kingdom-matthew

Why is it important to know what all of this is about?
We have salvation and assurance into some type of Kingdom.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why is it important to know what all of this is about?
> We have salvation and assurance into some type of Kingdom.



 So this idiotic part of evangelism will stop! 

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideis...e-Sign-for-Israel-Hagee-Explains-Blood-Moons/


http://www.wnd.com/2013/10/billy-graham-sounds-alarm-for-2nd-coming/#!

http://ipost.christianpost.com/news...seen-before-70th-anniversary-of-israel-11185/

https://estomiles.wordpress.com/201...edCensoredCensored-time-of-sorrows-rapidly-a/


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2015)

1 Corinthians 6:9-10, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Interesting that many Christians see these sins as actually keeping one from the spiritual kingdom. 
I agree these are terms of "flesh and blood."
We've been washed of these sins or this "flesh & blood."
"and such were some of you but you were washed."

Perhaps even "born again."

I'm trying to compromise. The Kingdom is here and yet it is to come. I still have "flesh and blood" attached. I still sin. I want more Kingdom than what I presently have. I need more Kingdom.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> It was judgement day. Judgement on Israel, and
> Israel being the adulturous wife. She was divorced and the church became the new wife.
> Also his return was the final part of the atonement process. If studied atonement was not complete until the high priest came out of the holiest of holies and announced salvation. Therefore it required a sacrifice, a presentation of the blood to God, then coming out to the people to announce the sacrifice was accepted and salvation was made.



Did I miss "Judgement Day?"

A good question for Futurist would be, why is Jesus returning?
If we are judged when we die a physical death, why is Jesus returning?
If he can judge us as individual souls in Heaven, why does he need to return to the Earth?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> So this idiotic part of evangelism will stop!
> 
> http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideis...e-Sign-for-Israel-Hagee-Explains-Blood-Moons/
> 
> ...



And the literal interpretation of the Bible. 
We sure need the Holy Spirit more than we know!
And to think, some people believe the Bible is the Holy Spirit.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 13, 2015)

_Originally Posted by Artfuldodger  

Why is it important to know what all of this is about?
We have salvation and assurance into some type of Kingdom._

Another reason, and my main focus is we need to know the truth. When our preaching/teaching is based on falsehoods of tradition and easily defeated in the bible....what kind of preachers/teachers are we?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Did I miss "Judgement Day?"
> 
> A good question for Futurist would be, why is Jesus returning?
> If we are judged when we die a physical death, why is Jesus returning?
> If he can judge us as individual souls in Heaven, why does he need to return to the Earth?



Premillenials will say to save Israel.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Premillenials will say to save Israel.



Many Christians feel Israel or the Jews has nothing to do with the Kingdom anymore since they rejected Jesus and the mystery of the Kingdom was given to the Gentiles.

If nothing pertaining to the Kingdom is about Israel, and the second return of Jesus was just to judge Israel.
Why was this judgement needed?

Why do so many Christians look for the 2nd coming to be a great event when it is or was nothing but a Judgement Day?

And just for Jerusalem to boot?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2015)

Hobbs,
How does Preterist view the millennium?
I know you told me before but I forgot.

For some reason I believe Revelation holds many answers about the Kingdom even if it has arrived and/or is spiritual. I believe Revelation holds many answers of God on his throne and Jesus being in the presence of God's throne. I believe this is literal.

How doe Preterist view Revelation other than John's revelation has passed? Does it hold many keys to the 2nd coming already happening?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2015)

Such as;
Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

(why did the kingdom of the world become the kingdom of God and his Christ? Jesus said his kingdom wasn't of this world.)
(kingdom of God and his Christ? Perhaps the Mediator was given temporary reign.)

Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice shouting across the heavens, "It has come at last--salvation and power and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown down to earth--the one who accuses them before our God day and night.

(Satan battled Heaven and was defeated. Satan and his angels were cast to the Earth. Satan went after the Mother of the ruler. She escaped so Satan went after Christians.)

Revelation 22:15
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Revelation 22:18
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

Revelation 6:17
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?"

(this passage sure sounds like Jerusalem and a literal Judgement.
They were begging rocks to fall on them and hide them from the Lamb.)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2015)

"But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom." (Matt. 26:29)
"Truly I say to you, I shall never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God." (Mark 14:25)

"...for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, "Take this and share it among yourselves; for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes." (Luke 22:16-18) 

Any thoughts on these verses?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 13, 2015)

When will Jesus deliver his Kingdom to God and turn his reign over to his Father?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 14, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs,
> How does Preterist view the millennium?
> I know you told me before but I forgot.
> 
> ...



The millennium began during Christ' earthly ministry. We know this because of what is learned in John 17:2 and Matthew 28:18.


Revelation is a detailed ( in apocalyptic language) prophesy that is equal to the prophesy in Matthew 24.... The end of the age, and the beginning of the New age that lasts forever.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 14, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> When will Jesus deliver his Kingdom to God and turn his reign over to his Father?



70ad.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 14, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> When will Jesus deliver his Kingdom to God and turn his reign over to his Father?



When man stops rewarding evil and no longer finds evil rewarding.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 14, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom." (Matt. 26:29)
> "Truly I say to you, I shall never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God." (Mark 14:25)
> 
> "...for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, "Take this and share it among yourselves; for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes." (Luke 22:16-18)
> ...



Acts 10:41


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Acts 10:41



Were there is my proof, thanks.

Acts 10:41
He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen--by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 14, 2015)

I was hoping for the Kingdom to be a little more grand but it is what it is. I can live with it.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 14, 2015)

I guess I'm second guessing your proof. Could Jesus be talking about the Passover instead of casual eating and drinking? Perhaps his last Passover on earth and the next one would be in Heaven. He was talking to his disciples and not us. But then can we drink in Heaven?
If the 2nd coming then Jesus could drink with his disciples if he returned in 70AD not if it's in the future. 
You are correct with future events making the Bible difficult. Either way this shared Passover between Jesus and his disciples is physical. It is or was in a physical Kingdom.

"But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom." (Matt. 26:29)
"Truly I say to you, I shall never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God." (Mark 14:25)

"...for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, "Take this and share it among yourselves; for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes." (Luke 22:16-18)

Acts 10:41
He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen--by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 14, 2015)

I have more thoughts on this. I'll look over my notes tonight and get back with you on the subject. I want to make sure I have this properly connected.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 14, 2015)

Art, my notes have taken me back to Exodus twelve. Some interesting comparisons of the pass over..The Jews were in bondage in Egypt, they were to participate in the passover before the event that led them out of bondage...and as a memorial.

 Christ' cup represented the cup of the new covenant..The Disciples took of it that night and were to take of it as a memorial...The new covenant led them out of bondage of death..ie. The Law...and they wondered between the old and new for 40 years 30 ad 70 ad.

 The kingdom was inagurated at 70ad, upon Jesus return... I wonder when other present kingdom believers believe it was ushered in?  Back to the books, I have lots of leads on this now..thanks


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 14, 2015)

The events leading to the offering of bread and wine between Abraham and the King of Shalem are very indicative of when the kingdom started regards Christianity.

Abraham's righteousness,, his rescue of Lot , the events of,  has removed the curse on the earth( Cannaan) so much so that Cain's offering is now  an acceptable offering or bread and wine in lieu of blood.

So the kingdom started when Christians first broke bread in communion.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, my notes have taken me back to Exodus twelve. Some interesting comparisons of the pass over..The Jews were in bondage in Egypt, they were to participate in the passover before the event that led them out of bondage...and as a memorial.
> 
> Christ' cup represented the cup of the new covenant..The Disciples took of it that night and were to take of it as a memorial...The new covenant led them out of bondage of death..ie. The Law...and they wondered between the old and new for 40 years 30 ad 70 ad.
> 
> The kingdom was inagurated at 70ad, upon Jesus return... I wonder when other present kingdom believers believe it was ushered in?  Back to the books, I have lots of leads on this now..thanks



Sounds like an interesting topic, keep me posted. I like the way we all keep each other on our toes. 
We inspire each other to learn and study.
I'm amazed at how Bible things are interconnected.

I too wonder how other present Kingdom believers believe when the Kingdom started. Gordon is hanging in there with us. Perhaps others will be lead to post about the Kingdom.
I've never even thought about a passover/last supper connection to the Kingdom.
Jesus did say he would drink wine with his disciples when he returned and it would be in his Father's kingdom. He did drink with his disciples after his resurrection.
I would imagine he drank with some of his disciples if he returned in 70AD. He can't drink with them if his return is in the future as the disciples won't be here. 
Unless it's after their resurrection. Can we drink after our resurrection as Jesus did? (spiritual bodies drinking as Jesus did?) 
See Hobbs, your beliefs answer some questions but not all of my questions. Either way the drinking or Passover celebration is or was a physical event between Jesus and his disciples.
Keep us posted on your research.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 14, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> The events leading to the offering of bread and wine between Abraham and the King of Shalem are very indicative of when the kingdom started regards Christianity.
> 
> Abraham's righteousness,, his rescue of Lot , the events of,  has removed the curse on the earth( Cannaan) so much so that Cain's offering is now  an acceptable offering or bread and wine in lieu of blood.
> 
> So the kingdom started when Christians first broke bread in communion.



The last Passover was the first communion, correct?


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> The last Passover was the first communion, correct?




No. The sacrifice on the cross had not taken place  . Cain's offering was still not acceptable, the earth was still cursed. ( I think it was still...?) The cross removed it and bread and wine was now acceptable as an offering. The righteousness of Abraham as a type provided that he would break bread as an offering with the King of Shalem. The same applies to the righteousness of Jesus which changes the offering from blood to the products of the earth: grapes=wine, grain=beard. So the kingdom began as far as Christians are concerned  when enough people were baptized under the name of Jesus and they started to live out the consequences of their faith.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Sounds like an interesting topic, keep me posted. I like the way we all keep each other on our toes.
> We inspire each other to learn and study.
> I'm amazed at how Bible things are interconnected.
> 
> ...




Many Christians would say that the bread and wine presented by the people as an offering (  as an offering by the disciples) to God, is accepted and returned to the people ( the followers) in spiritual form as the essence of Christ or God with us today. And that therefore Jesus is supping with his followers thousands of yrs after he appeared to his original followers, after the resurrection.

 Disciples are still here... I meet some every day and for many Jesus is still present in the breaking of bread and the drinking of wine as a communion meal.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 15, 2015)

Any thoughts on this verse;  

Hebrews 9:28
so also Christ died once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.

Consummation, redemption, salvation, resurrection, gather believers,  judgment, start of unhindered kingdom, Christ's victory over Satan, world order, end of evil, end of universe, and/or new creation?


----------



## Day trip (Jan 15, 2015)

Doesn't this mean that Christ lived perfectly and died perfectly as an example to all.  Through the Holy Spirit we now know too how to follow his example and when Christ returns, our score cards will be evaluated.  Not to see that we have done enough but to see if we have become true "believers" who live by his example.  Because of his death, salvation is now attainable.


----------



## M80 (Jan 15, 2015)

Day trip said:


> Doesn't this mean that Christ lived perfectly and died perfectly as an example to all.  Through the Holy Spirit we now know too how to follow his example and when Christ returns, our score cards will be evaluated.  Not to see that we have done enough but to see if we have become true "believers" who live by his example.  Because of his death, salvation is now attainable.



Not or works, lest any should boast


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 15, 2015)

Philippians 3:20
But we are citizens of heaven, where the Lord Jesus Christ lives. And we are eagerly waiting for him to return as our Savior.

Why? If we already have salvation, redemption, are born again and will enter Heaven/Kingdom  after physical death, why are we eagerly waiting for Jesus to return?


----------



## Day trip (Jan 15, 2015)

Keep reading.  Because, "He will change our lowly body to conform with his glorified body by the power that enables him to bring all things into subjection to himself."  
Dealing with our conduct.  Our imitation of Paul who knows how to act rightly as a citizen of Heaven so that when  our time comes, we too can be conformed with his glorified body, not end in destruction as enemies of the cross of Christ.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Philippians 3:20
> But we are citizens of heaven, where the Lord Jesus Christ lives. And we are eagerly waiting for him to return as our Savior.
> 
> Why? If we already have salvation, redemption, are born again and will enter Heaven/Kingdom  after physical death, why are we eagerly waiting for Jesus to return?



I think Paul explains this in Corinthians  perhaps.... though it is a hard read. I think " The resurrection" is the answer.

And what Day Trip said.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 15, 2015)

mwilliams80 said:


> Not or works, lest any should boast



Your right, but to follow the counsel of God to the best of one's ability is not works... it is faith. I think. 

If I understand Paul correctly, some perfecting is still required even after salvation via the church. 


 Ephesians 4: 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
--------------------
Now scripture says ministers work, but alas, similar joys a mother has for her children, the work, the struggles of birthing forgotten. I suppose.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 15, 2015)

Day trip said:


> Keep reading.  Because, "He will change our lowly body to conform with his glorified body by the power that enables him to bring all things into subjection to himself."
> Dealing with our conduct.  Our imitation of Paul who knows how to act rightly as a citizen of Heaven so that when  our time comes, we too can be conformed with his glorified body, not end in destruction as enemies of the cross of Christ.



Can we acquire these glorified bodies before Jesus returns?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 15, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> I think Paul explains this in Corinthians  perhaps.... though it is a hard read. I think " The resurrection" is the answer.
> 
> And what Day Trip said.



Why do we eagerly await for a physical glorified body if we are already born again into a spiritual kingdom?


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why do we eagerly await for a physical glorified body if we are already born again into a spiritual kingdom?



Because we's gona die a physical death and our great, great grand papy David prayed that he be with God with all we-he got,all we-he had, and with all we-he will be... because that's how much he loved God.

 All my lovin... to you.

Bet there are other less sappy answers, however.

Even though we are born again  and citizens of the kingdom, we still sin because of powers, principalites, dominions and spiritual 1%ers in high places. The best we got is faith for now.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Can we acquire these glorified bodies before Jesus returns?



Good question. Some say yes. Enoch is first candidate... and so on.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 15, 2015)

Here's a partial, I found that I agree with. I stopped the copy at the point I disagree with this persons idea, but from this, it is equal to what my own studies have confirmed, now I will go back to the study and see if I can put together a finality to this.

[As a Christian who holds a preterist view of eschatology I believe in the consistency of the Word. I believe in the completeness of the New Covenant promise. I believe in the fulfillment of the law. I believe that biblical symbols held specific and particular meanings.These beliefs are shared throughout the community of Christians who hold a preterist view, however we still find ourselves arguing over topics concerning New Testament symbols and types of the New Covenant. Some of these topics include communion, baptism and even the ministry of the organized church.

"Copies and Shadows"
 The Old Covenant laws and structure were set up as copies of the heavenly promises:

Heb 8:4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law.
 Heb 8:5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary; for when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain."
 ………Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second.
 ……….Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Not only were the copies of the Old vanishing, they were called imperfect and being replaced by the perfect. Chapter 9 of Hebrews is even more specific on how the Old Covenant was not good enough to perfect the conscience of the worshiper but that the ministry of Christ would fulfill that function once and for all.

How would this be accomplished?

Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.
 Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second.
 Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
 Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord.
 Heb 8:10 This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
 Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every one his fellow or every one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
 Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

What a better covenant!! It would not be one enacted on external laws and "copies" but one that dealt directly with the conscience of the worshipper. One that applied to all who call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ!

Christ Set Up Copies!?

Mat 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is my body."
 Mat 26:27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you;
 Mat 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
 Mat 26:29 I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

Some people get stuck on this last part thinking Christ was referring to us drinking the cup of communion in this fulfilled covenant as a celebration of His return and not His death. I do not believe this to be true. Copies of the Old Covenant do not remain now that the law is fulfilled, so why do we insist the copies of the New Covenant do? Is the New Covenant consummated or not?

There is one point many confuse. Passover was not replaced by communion for all who live in a completed New Covenant. Communion was a copy of the promise of Christ’s blood being partaken by each individual who believed AT HIS RETURN. When they partook of communion, it symbolized the promise they were hoping for. The blood of the New Covenant becoming and internal and forever reality applied to their lives once and for all after He returned for salvation.

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Since I am making a case concerning communion to fellow Christians who are already holding the preterist view, I will not make the case for salvation not being applied until after Christ's return because we already agree for the most part on this point. But in the first communion, Christ gave the disciples another copy of a heavenly truth to follow until His blood of the New Covenant would once and for all be applied to their lives after the consummation of the kingdom. 

Read again:

Mat 26:29 I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

When was the next time Christ would drink again of the fruit of the vine? It was a reference to the marriage supper of the Lamb! When the Bride and Groom would be met together in the consummation of the kingdom. When the blood of Christ would finally be applied to all who hoped in its promise and to all who follow in belief after the kingdoms consummation.

This happened for those who were “alive and remained” as well as for those who were taken up. Both parties received the promise of salvation. Those who were alive were presently “changed” and eternal life “clothed” them. Those who were taken up received their new bodies and eternal reward. Are they still doing communion in heaven? Wouldn’t Christ “drink it anew,” in a “new way”, with them as well? 

He has partaken of communion with both parties, when His sacrifice was accepted by the Father, and He returned in glory to “recompense to each man according to his works” back in AD 70. We now are also made alive by His blood when we are saved. We become a part of the New Jerusalem, and are cleansed by His blood and “clothed in life” (1 Cor 15). We could not be a part of the New Jerusalem NOW if we have not been saved by His blood. Nothing unclean would “enter the city” according to Revelation 21. The blood of Christ has presently saved those who believe, or we are not a part of the New Jerusalem.

I believe the New Jerusalem where righteousness dwells is the church. The New Heavens and the New Earth is the New Covenant of God made with anyone who believes in God’s Son. ]

http://planetpreterist.com/content/fulfilled-communion


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 15, 2015)

Here's where I believe..the above author felt that communion is fulfilled.. I don't , I believe it is a sacrament that should continue, although He has returned. And here is why.

 “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.” (I Cor. 11:26) 

 The word “until” does not necessarily imply a termination. For example, Christ was to reign “until” He put all His enemies under His feet. (I Cor. 15:25; cf. I Tim. 4:13) “Until” cannot mean a termination in that verse because Christ reigns forever. (Dan. 7:14; Lk. 1:33; Heb. 1:8) “Until” in I Cor. 11:26 implies a culmination and establishment, not a termination.


“Fulfilled” does not necessarily imply a change from material to non-material. The truth that the Lord's Supper represents was brought to fullness in Christ in A.D. 70, but that does not mean that the Lord's Supper itself was to cease. Christ partakes of the Lord's Supper with us now in the Spirit as we partake of it physically on Earth.

Since A.D. 70, Christ takes the Lord's Supper with us in a “new” way, i.e., with “new” meaning. The Lord's Supper is no longer a somber remembrance, but it is a celebration feast. Now He has Communion with us spiritually when we partake of the literal bread and wine.

 The manna and the Lord's Supper are not likened to each other in Scripture. They are contrasted. In Jn. 6:31-56, the manna is contrasted with the Lord's Supper, i.e., with Christ's “flesh and blood.” The manna was temporary. The Lord's Supper (His “flesh and blood”) is an eternal New Covenant ordinance. Likewise in I Cor. 10:3-4, the manna and the water in the wilderness were temporary, but the Lord's Supper (of which Paul speaks in the same chapter) is eternal.

 The Israelites took the Passover while they awaited their redemption in Egypt. Then after they entered the Promised Land, they continued to observe the Passover throughout the entire old covenant age. The Lord's Supper is the fulfillment / antitype of the Passover. The New Covenant Church took the Lord's Supper while it awaited its redemption from the old covenant age. (Lk. 21:28; Rom. 8:23; Eph. 1:14; 4:30) Then after the Church entered the (spiritual) Promised Land (in A.D. 70), it was to continue taking the Lord's Supper throughout the entire New Covenant Age. Just like the Passover, the Lord's Supper is an age long Covenant-ordinance.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 15, 2015)

Hobbs, that's an interesting report there.
As I understand, you see communion as a celebration of his "already coming" instead of a remembrance of his death? 

You said Christ will reign forever. Didn't Christ return/deliver the Kingdom to his Father and return his temporary reign over to his Father?


----------



## Day trip (Jan 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Can we acquire these glorified bodies before Jesus returns?



I cannot see how.  Are you thinking of something specific or leading me somewhere?  My suspicion is that Jesus' return is not some grand futuristic event but takes place constantly with each righteous soul as it passes from the physical to the spiritual reality.  But I specifically make a point not to try to predict God's actions.  From the beginning with a tiny little baby and a heavenly host of angles supplanting the kings of earth, nothing has occurred as we expect.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 15, 2015)

Now for you futurist believers who say we have been born again;

John 3:6
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:42
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

The parable of the tares that can only be separated from the wheat at the "end of age."

The parable of the fishing net. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 

The Parable of the Sheep and Goats. The sheep on Jesus’ right hand are blessed by God the Father and given an inheritance.
The goats on Jesus’ left hand are cursed with eternal he11-fire, “prepared for the devil and his angels”

My questions are; 
being that we are born again as a spirit, and as related to these parables of separation, and as related to the Kingdom, and as related to our resurrection, and  as related to the 2nd coming of Jesus;

How is it the we are born again at conversion as a spirit into a spiritual Kingdom? 

If we are born again as a spirit, why all the hoopla of a resurrected glorious body?

Why return from a spiritual kingdom for a resurrected body of flesh & bones?

If we are in the Kingdom and it is a spiritual kingdom and the proof is we go there when we die, why return for a body?

If we were once corruptible(flesh) but raised incorruptible(spirit), why  do we need "another" resurrection? 

If we are already in the Kingdom, being born again into this kingdom, already inherited it, already judged, already redeemed, etc. 
What could Jesus possibly do to change anything about our "rebirth" if he comes again?
We are already a New Person being born of the Spirit from above.
We are in the Kingdom. 
I can assure you that if you are in the Kingdom, you have been judged. I can assure you that if your soul goes to heaven when you die, you have been judged. I can assure you that if you exist/live after you die a physical death, you have been judged.
If you have any kind of a spiritual awareness that you are alive after your flesh dies, you have been judged.

Now when does the Kingdom start? When are you born again?
When you are born again, what do you become spirit or flesh?

Do you think you are born again into a spiritual kingdom to return later to be resurrected into a glorious body kingdom?

I want to know what kind of Kingdom you are in now compared to the type of Kingdom you will be in after your physical death, and what type of Kingdom will you be in after your future resurrection? Will your future resurrection change your kingdom from a spiritual realm back to a physical realm?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 15, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Because we's gona die a physical death and our great, great grand papy David prayed that he be with God with all we-he got,all we-he had, and with all we-he will be... because that's how much he loved God.
> 
> All my lovin... to you.
> 
> ...



How can a person who was sown perishable, and raised imperishable, still sin? How can one be born of flesh but born again as a spirit still sin? How can a person born again into the Kingdom of God, sin? 

Why are we still in the Flesh if we are already in the Kingdom? Can we be in both? We don't have to wait for our resurrection to enter the Kingdom do we? We don't have to wait for the resurrection to be raised imperishable do we? We don't need to wait for our resurrection for any future judgement do we? We don't need to wait for the resurrection to be "born again" do we?
We don't need the resurrection to become a new spiritual non-sinning, never to be judged, forever inheriting the Kingdom, forever being  adopted brothers to Jesus and sons of God.

What is the purpose of this future resurrection? 
Either we are in this spiritual Kingdom or we aren't.
Why are you eagerly waiting for the return of Christ?


----------



## Day trip (Jan 15, 2015)

Citizens of heaven while still alive are going to sin.  Just like the enemies of the cross.  However, the citizens of Heaven beg forgiveness and strive to mature into a more Jesus like state.  They listen to and follow the teaching of Christ until the action is natural, reflexive.  You become what you adore.  And when Christ comes to separate the sheep and goats, those who have built their house on solid ground will be saved.  The enemies of the cross think this is foolishness.  They don't get it.  The deny Jesus and condemn themselves.  To be born again is to realize Jesus' message and strive to achieve it.  It is entirely about intent.  Not doing good or performing acts because you should but doing so because it is natural, it is who you have become.  Repentance, changing ones mind away from desires of the flesh, no longer even thinking of the flesh but living naturally under the true guiding principles of the soul. Then, even though your still in the flesh, you are a citizen of Heaven, like St.Paul.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> How can a person who was sown perishable, and raised imperishable, still sin? How can one be born of flesh but born again as a spirit still sin? How can a person born again into the Kingdom of God, sin?
> 
> Why are we still in the Flesh if we are already in the Kingdom? Can we be in both? We don't have to wait for our resurrection to enter the Kingdom do we? We don't have to wait for the resurrection to be raised imperishable do we? We don't need to wait for or resurrection for any future judgement do we? We don't need to wait for the resurrection to be "born again" do we?
> We don't need the resurrection to become a new spiritual non-sinning, never to be judged, forever inheriting the Kingdom, forever being  adopted brothers to Jesus and sons of God.
> ...



Why are you eagerly waiting for the return of Christ?

Because I am eager for God's justice. I am eager to see all the smiles on the faces of His sons and daughters.  I am eager for the answers to all the  prayers  made by men and women, as men and women  made of flesh and of spirit. I am eager to walk, flesh and bone, in the Spirit yet now unmolested. Because I am eager.  I am eager to sit by my lords and my Lord and surrounded by the fields of Sharon. I am eager to touch my father's whiskers again and to kiss my mother's lips. I am eager for the call that the prophets should stand-- and that you and I do. And Abraham too. I am eager for the day when the weak are strong.

( You asked.  )


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 15, 2015)

Day trip said:


> I cannot see how.  Are you thinking of something specific or leading me somewhere?  My suspicion is that Jesus' return is not some grand futuristic event but takes place constantly with each righteous soul as it passes from the physical to the spiritual reality.  But I specifically make a point not to try to predict God's actions.  From the beginning with a tiny little baby and a heavenly host of angles supplanting the kings of earth, nothing has occurred as we expect.



Not leading you anywhere just wondering if you see the "glorious body transformation" as something different from resurrection. Perhaps becoming "like Christ" before our physical death or something along those lines. 

Why do we eagerly await for a physical glorified body if we are already born again into a spiritual kingdom?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, that's an interesting report there.
> As I understand, you see communion as a celebration of his "already coming" instead of a remembrance of his death?


 Yes!



Artfuldodger said:


> You said Christ will reign forever. Didn't Christ return/deliver the Kingdom to his Father and return his temporary reign over to his Father?



 What did he deliver to the Father at his coming? Isnt this chapter about the resurrection?....Hmmm......


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


 Alive and remain....caught up just as them......will meet them in spirit...ever be with the Lord. 
 Glorified bodies at salvation, and yes If saved always saved!

 I think a deep study and breakdown of 1 Thessalonians 4 is in order to truly understand 1Corinthians 15


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 15, 2015)

Day trip said:


> Citizens of heaven while still alive are going to sin.  Just like the enemies of the cross.  However, the citizens of Heaven beg forgiveness and strive to mature into a more Jesus like state.  They listen to and follow the teaching of Christ until the action is natural, reflexive.  You become what you adore.  And when Christ comes to separate the sheep and goats, those who have built their house on solid ground will be saved.  The enemies of the cross think this is foolishness.  They don't get it.  The deny Jesus and condemn themselves.  To be born again is to realize Jesus' message and strive to achieve it.  It is entirely about intent.  Not doing good or performing acts because you should but doing so because it is natural, it is who you have become.  Repentance, changing ones mind away from desires of the flesh, no longer even thinking of the flesh but living naturally under the true guiding principles of the soul. Then, even though your still in the flesh, you are a citizen of Heaven, like St.Paul.



I will agree with everything you said as long as these Citizens of Heaven will not be standing before Jesus to be separated into sheep and goats as a future event.
How can a citizen of heaven be judged if he is already a citizen of heaven? Judgement for separation that is. How or what purpose is a sheep/goat separation needed if we are already in a spiritual kingdom? 
If this Citizen were to die a physical death today, he will go to his Kingdom as a spirit. He has already been judged or else he wouldn't be a Citizen. He has inherited the Kingdom.
If we aren't Citizens then we will just stay in the grave with our flesh. We will experience "eternal death."
If we must wait on a future resurrection then we aren't Citizens, yet. We would just be future prospective Citizens promised a Kingdom inheritance.
We would eagerly await Christ and salvation as a promise or hope we now have.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 15, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Why are you eagerly waiting for the return of Christ?
> 
> Because I am eager for God's justice. I am eager to see all the smiles on the faces of His sons and daughters.  I am eager for the answers to all the  prayers  made by men and women, as men and women  made of flesh and of spirit. I am eager to walk, flesh and bone, in the Spirit yet now unmolested. Because I am eager.  I am eager to sit by my lords and my Lord and surrounded by the fields of Sharon. I am eager to touch my father's whiskers again and to kiss my mother's lips. I am eager for the call that the prophets should stand-- and that you and I do. And Abraham too. I am eager for the day when the weak are strong.
> 
> ( You asked.  )



But if you are already in the Kingdom and it's spiritual, why must you wait? What does a physical resurrection have to do entering a spiritual Kingdom? 
Can't you do all you describe when you die a physical death? Why don't you resurrect spiritually at  your physical death into a spiritual Kingdom and you can do everything you expect.

Must you eagerly await a physical resurrection and the future return of Christ to receive salvation or to enter the Kingdom?
Salvation from eternal death?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I understand it as you believe perfectly. In other words your belief explains it all better. Glorified bodies at salvation, born again at salvation, entering the spiritual Kingdom at salvation.  Resurrecting as a spirit at our physical death. Going to the Kingdom as a spirit.                                                         Salvation/Kingdom starting when Jesus came again.
And Satan being defeated.

I don't understand the futurist beliefs at all. It's too wishy washy, switching back and forth trying to make sense of all the verses. Trying so so hard to make it fit. Born again into a spiritual kingdom yet needing a future physical resurrection. Going to heaven as a spirit only to return for a resurrection. Waiting on Jesus to come and defeat Satan. Waiting on some future Judgment Day.
It gets hopelessly confusing. I get hopelessly confused.
Maybe other futurist can come on here and explain it. Either we are in the Kingdom and it is spiritual or we are waiting on a future Kingdom of some physical form. Perhaps just a future temporary physical kingdom.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 16, 2015)

Here's part of the problem for folks that believe the kingdom has come but not the Son.

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

 He was to come in His kingdom...within the lifetime of those standing there. This isnt the only reference of Christ returning soon..within the first century. Matter of fact, there's no where in the bible that even mentions a long term delay of his coming.

Proverbs 13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, But desire fulfilled is a tree of life.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 16, 2015)

Hobbs, when did Paul write the epistles and does Paul say anything that questions a future coming of Jesus?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 16, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, when did Paul write the epistles and does Paul say anything that questions a future coming of Jesus?



The 50's and up to his death in 68-69?

I have never found anything that questions it from Paul or any of the other apostles. There was an incident with Hymenaeus claiming Christ had come already and Paul had to correct him. 
 I believe all the scriptures were pre 70 ad and have evidence to support this.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 16, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> But if you are already in the Kingdom and it's spiritual, why must you wait? What does a physical resurrection have to do entering a spiritual Kingdom?
> Can't you do all you describe when you die a physical death? Why don't you resurrect spiritually at  your physical death into a spiritual Kingdom and you can do everything you expect.
> 
> Must you eagerly await a physical resurrection and the future return of Christ to receive salvation or to enter the Kingdom?
> Salvation from eternal death?




What does a physical resurrection have to do entering a spiritual Kingdom? 

Just as the spiritual is changed at baptism so will the physical be changed at the resurrection. And for me the necessity for this change is due to the designed man before he listened to Eve and to his man made justice.

 Although I am now a foreigner to the physical man of our origin-- I have faith that when Genesis reports man's original makeup as good the resurrection of the body from the fall is required to complete salvation.

Man(a spiritual and physical being) was designed to have dominion over creation but not dominion over good and evil--thus the necessity for God's justice. And God deemed man as good at creation and what is good follows from His (God's) justice. And once God justified man, his life and his flesh,  by faith I have every right to hope in the resurrection of the body not because it is a craving of my selfish desire, but because it was from the beginning a design appraised as good by our creator, God.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 16, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> What does a physical resurrection have to do entering a spiritual Kingdom?
> 
> Just as the spiritual is changed at baptism so will the physical be changed at the resurrection. And for me the necessity for this change is due to the designed man before he listened to Eve and to his man made justice.
> 
> ...



Do you see man veering from God's plan when Adam sinned and a physical resurrection is God's way of righting Adam's wrong?
It's a form of God redeeming Adam's sin? Salvation isn't completed if we aren't resurrected physically? We must be saved from a physical death as physical life was God's original plan?

I can see all of that if that is when the Kingdom starts and the resurrection is salvation from death.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 16, 2015)

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/resurrection.html


Try this explanation and see if it fits scripture.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 16, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you see man veering from God's plan when Adam sinned and a physical resurrection is God's way of righting Adam's wrong?
> It's a form of God redeeming Adam's sin? Salvation isn't completed if we aren't resurrected physically? We must be saved from a physical death as physical life was God's original plan?
> 
> I can see all of that if that is when the Kingdom starts and the resurrection is salvation from death.



Well Art, you might have a point as God had issues with the Hebrews ( his chosen people) wanting a human king.

 In 1 Samuel He is reported as saying concerning them wanting a king,  1 Samuel 8:7"Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them."


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 16, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/resurrection.html
> 
> 
> Try this explanation and see if it fits scripture.



Gee.... lots to read....! 

The "no marriage in heaven" part is very dear to me. Or in "this age" we marry, but in the next age we won't need to. 

For Gordo this is simply the case where Adam and Eve become one man again in the "other age" post physical resurrection. That is one wholesome physical man, male and female, made such from then all being in all.

 But now in "this age" or this fallen age, male and female are made one body by what we know as marriage. So marriage is what makes male and female one body. But in the beginning they were one body said male and female just because God made man that way and without marriage, except for their "marriage" (word) to the creator.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 16, 2015)

Gordon, have you ever heard of a Dr. Scott Hahn?

 I'm finding some interesting reads on preterism and a certain denomination.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 16, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Gordon, have you ever heard of a Dr. Scott Hahn?
> 
> I'm finding some interesting reads on preterism and a certain denomination.



Ahhh I think he wrote a book that I have. Yes. Hail, Holy Queen ..... but I don't know what he's about other than he's a catholic convert, a writer and perhaps a teacher.

You wink, but I assure you I don't know what Hahn's views are on perterism or anything else really other than perhaps his view of Mary. I suppose I could google the boy.

What your point hobbs? I'm thinking that your communication here is not literal and is meant to infer something.... or am I incorrect?

 Knowing only slightly your "who". What? Where? When? Why? 

If he shares some of my views it is purely accident or a shared faith, reason alone is not sufficient. He's a very intelligent guy with wonderful communications skills. I am a lot less intelligent and I have just enough skill to see that so far that I can only see so far--and not far enough to write whole books on anything.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 16, 2015)

Gordon, no figuritive language here. I'm just excited about a preterist movement, however small it may be, and partial, within the Catholic church.

 I've just discovered some of Hahns teachings listed on some preterist sites, and you're correct he seems a very smart man with great communication skills. I've seen some of his YouTube video topics I'm very interested in.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 16, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Gordon, no figuritive language here. I'm just excited about a preterist movement, however small it may be, and partial, within the Catholic church.
> 
> I've just discovered some of Hahns teachings listed on some preterist sites, and you're correct he seems a very smart man with great communication skills. I've seen some of his YouTube video topics I'm very interested in.



I think he is possibly used by preterist to sandbag their positions, but I don't think he's a preterist. He talks alot about the church as the body of Christ now and 70 ad as the end of a world of the covenant in blood. These are orthodox views and don't imply that Christ has returned and so the resurrection and judgement. Or something like that.... Nevertheless... I really don't know his views in detail.  The few views of God that I know make his views pale in comparison I suppose--even if he was the best teacher since Paul and he might be.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 16, 2015)

From a Catholic believer:
Hahn is what one would call a preterist, one who interprets the book of Revelation as allegorical of events fulfilled in the 1st century. It is a legitimate position to hold, and in fact, most of Revelation comes out very clearly if interpreted in this light.

I also hold preterist views while maintaining that there is also a fulfillment of the prophecies for the end times. 

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=128296

Hahn does believe that the book of Revelation holds many answers. I'm not sure we are all using the same definition of Preterism.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 16, 2015)

Gordon..Art... Dr. Hahn is a partial preterist. This means he believes in a future coming and resurrection..Other than those two errors he' s pretty spot on in fulfilled prophecy.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 16, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Gordon..Art... Dr. Hahn is a partial preterist. This means he believes in a future coming and resurrection..Other than those two errors he' s pretty spot on in fulfilled prophecy.



Didn't you go this route before taking the full plunge? 
I might be headed this way myself.

Was David Chilton a partial preterist? What is the main difference, they see parts of Revelation as the destruction of Jerusalem, from God's judgment, but not the 2nd coming of Jesus?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 16, 2015)

Luke 22:29
29and just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, I grant you 30that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Eternal life that follows our current life?


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 16, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> From a Catholic believer:
> Hahn is what one would call a preterist, one who interprets the book of Revelation as allegorical of events fulfilled in the 1st century. It is a legitimate position to hold, and in fact, most of Revelation comes out very clearly if interpreted in this light.
> 
> I also hold preterist views while maintaining that there is also a fulfillment of the prophecies for the end times.
> ...


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 16, 2015)

John 14:1
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.2 In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
19 "After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 16, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Didn't you go this route before taking the full plunge?
> I might be headed this way myself.
> 
> Was David Chilton a partial preterist? What is the main difference, they see parts of Revelation as the destruction of Jerusalem, from God's judgment, but not the 2nd coming of Jesus?



yes, I was partial up until a year ago or so. I was trying to hold on to the orthodoxy and not fall into a class known as heritic. I had to be true to myself though, and the studies brought me into the realization that it all pointed to one event.

David Chilton died in 1997, some say as a full preterist , some as a partial. I don't know, other than some of his writings sure leaned towards full.

 There's several partial preterist that are down right militant against full preterist. They think they are fighting to save the definition of preterism as almost all fulfulfilled. There's others that are against full preterism but are friendly with full preterist such as Ken Gentry.

 Sam Frost is an ex full preterist that wrote some amazing books. He gave up on full preterism because he said he can't understand an infinite kingdom . He points to science as proving some day the earth will come to an end...the sun will only burn for so long.... I believe Christ kingdom can outlast the earth..maybe man will someday leave this place for another..who knows? All I know is what the bible says, it's a kingdom without end. Maybe that means upon the last living man the Kingdom will be entirely with the father?

Preterism is a lot older than most folks think too, it has roots dating way back, with St. Augustine being known as a preterist by definition, although not a full preterist.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 16, 2015)

There is a reason why the tower of babel was foiled and the words scrambled. [/QUOTE]

And what was the reason the construction was foiled?

The words being scrambled was to promote diversity.

Remember at the Pentecost when the Words weren't scrambled? 

Perhaps the various divisions of futurist, preterist, Catholic, and Protestant, and even all of the divisions within each of those is to promote diversity, spreading the seed.

Now we could be headed back to the unscrambling as it was at the Pentecost, gathering the seed.


----------

