# Is this the Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics section



## Newt2 (Mar 19, 2021)

I'm an Atheist and have been lurking this section for a while now. Because there are 4 other sections where folks can proclaim their faith, I thought this was one to find others that share my belief (or lack there of). After viewing a hundred threads and hundreds of posts, I found that 95% appear to be those trying to convince Atheists, etc., to convert to their religion, aka christianity.

One thread in particular, "Atheist Church" was quite misleading. To me, these "churches" are trying to do what other religious believers do. Try to influence people to a single individual's belief(s). In this section, I hoped to meet folks here that are Atheists and how it relates to them in the shooting industry.

Hopefully on here we can keep it real. You have your beliefs and I have mine. I've left or been kicked out of countless forums because of who I am so we'll see.


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## bullethead (Mar 19, 2021)

You are in the right place and as long as things are kept civil with no name calling or personal attacks the conversations are worthwhile and people involved are knowledgeable. Unfortunately,  the place has been on life support for months.


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## Ray357 (Mar 19, 2021)

I am a Christian. I am very Calvinistic leaning. I am sure you have heard The Gospel. What you do with that knowledge is not up to me. I have no need to try to convert you, so long as you feel no need to attempt to convert me, we can get along fine. My duty is to spread The Gospel to those who have not heard. It's not my duty to beat those who reject it over the head with it.


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## bullethead (Mar 19, 2021)

In my opinion the discussions have come to a halt mainly due to one side requiring answers beyond scripture and one side using scripture to back up scripture. Both sides "know" The Gospels and Scripture and the discussions have gone beyond what is contained in each. There have been 3 or 4 true Apologists that were able to take what is said in the Bible and lay it out in layman's terms with examples. They really made me think


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## Newt2 (Mar 20, 2021)

bullethead said:


> In my opinion the discussions have come to a halt mainly due to one side requiring answers beyond scripture and one side using scripture to back up scripture. Both sides "know" The Gospels and Scripture and the discussions have gone beyond what is contained in each. There have been 3 or 4 true Apologists that were able to take what is said in the Bible and lay it out in layman's terms with examples. They really made me think



Thanks for your response. What I am questioning is not what scripture and gospels are saying or what the bible is saying as that true Atheists do not believe or follow those things. Referencing those things have absolutely nothing to do with 
Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics. That's why I was questioning the title of the section. Maybe it should be "Christian beliefs concerning Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics"

I sure hope I don't have to leave this site just as soon as I started because my beliefs contradict what others believe. I have over 40 years of handgun hunting experience where I can make contributions to this site based on experience and extensive ballistic testing and learn from others as well. I hope that this misguided dialog in this section won't jeopardize mutual positive results as a member.


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## Ray357 (Mar 20, 2021)

Newt2 said:


> Thanks for your response. What I am questioning is not what scripture and gospels are saying or what the bible is saying as that true Atheists do not believe or follow those things. Referencing those things have absolutely nothing to do with
> Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics. That's why I was questioning the title of the section. Maybe it should be "Christian beliefs concerning Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics"
> 
> I sure hope I don't have to leave this site just as soon as I started because my beliefs contradict what others believe. I have over 40 years of handgun hunting experience where I can make contributions to this site based on experience and extensive ballistic testing and learn from others as well. I hope that this misguided dialog in this section won't jeopardize mutual positive results as a member.


Seems to me that you are the one trying to make your belief system an issue.


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## kmckinnie (Mar 20, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Seems to me that you are the one trying to make your belief system an issue.


Seems to me you make a issue about something everywhere you go. you have a ignore feature for other members using this this sight. I suggest you use it !
I’m sure plenty here use it for you.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2021)

I'll throw in my .02 cents 
If what you are looking for is Atheists/Agnostics discussing their beliefs with other Atheists/Agnostics..... we dont do a whole lot of that (almost none).
The vast majority of the A/As are interested in discussion and debate with the believer crowd (the Apologetics part).  If the believers choose not to participate, its generally just crickets chirping around here.
And some friendly advice -
This is NOT a place to come to call Christians stupid etc.
If you do that you will find yourself getting spanked by ALL of us.

So post up whats on your mind and we'll see if it generates discussion.
And welcome!


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2021)

Newt2 said:


> Thanks for your response. What I am questioning is not what scripture and gospels are saying or what the bible is saying as that true Atheists do not believe or follow those things. Referencing those things have absolutely nothing to do with
> Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics. That's why I was questioning the title of the section. Maybe it should be "Christian beliefs concerning Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics"
> 
> I sure hope I don't have to leave this site just as soon as I started because my beliefs contradict what others believe. I have over 40 years of handgun hunting experience where I can make contributions to this site based on experience and extensive ballistic testing and learn from others as well. I hope that this misguided dialog in this section won't jeopardize mutual positive results as a member.


Start up some conversation about what you want to discuss, this place needs a good kick in the butt to get it rolling


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## Ray357 (Mar 20, 2021)

kmckinnie said:


> Seems to me you make a issue about something everywhere you go. you have a ignore feature for other members using this this sight. I suggest you use it !
> I’m sure plenty here use it for you.


Of course anyone who wants to ignore me is perfectly free to do so. I do agree I make issues of things in the political forum. People need to be passionate and take strong stands at this tipping point in our history. At this time in politics, issues need to be made and stands need to be taken. When some people are shown that they really care more about convenience than they care about our nation, they get mad.  I don't care. I don't mind kicking sacred cows. I have never nor do I now seek to win a popularity contest. I abide by board rules. You obviously do not like me or what I say. I do not care. My mission on Earth is not to please you.


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## Newt2 (Mar 20, 2021)

I don't feel I am literate enough to express well what I think and feel. So for now I'll post a few quotes that may help with that.

“Being a Humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you are dead.”
― Kurt Vonnegut


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## Ray357 (Mar 20, 2021)

Newt2 said:


> I don't feel I am literate enough to express well what I think and feel. So for now I'll post a few quotes that may help with that.
> 
> “Being a Humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you are dead.”
> ― Kurt Vonnegut


Who defines "decently"? In a post modern moral system, what is right to each person, is right.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Who defines "decently"? In a post modern moral system, what is right to each person, is right.


It has been that way all over the planet,  in every society,  in each family,  down to the individual since the beginning of human existence.
Morals change and have changed.
Nobody or No Thing has established a written set of morals or decency. They change according to the situation,  that is what makes us human.


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## Ray357 (Mar 20, 2021)

bullethead said:


> It has been that way all over the planet,  in every society,  in each family,  down to the individual since the beginning of human existence.
> Morals change and have changed.
> Nobody or No Thing has established a written set of morals or decency. They change according to the situation,  that is what makes us human.


Situational morals change. Absolute morals do not. Without absolute morals, there is no right and there is no wrong.


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## 4HAND (Mar 20, 2021)

kmckinnie said:


> Seems to me you make a issue about something everywhere you go. you have a ignore feature for other members using this this sight. I suggest you use it !
> I’m sure plenty here use it for you.


??????


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## kmckinnie (Mar 20, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Of course anyone who wants to ignore me is perfectly free to do so. I do agree I make issues of things in the political forum. People need to be passionate and take strong stands at this tipping point in our history. At this time in politics, issues need to be made and stands need to be taken. When some people are shown that they really care more about convenience than they care about our nation, they get mad.  I don't care. I don't mind kicking sacred cows. I have never nor do I now seek to win a popularity contest. I abide by board rules. You obviously do not like me or what I say. I do not care. My mission on Earth is not to please you.


What I find funny when your showing (as you say others) they get mad ? 
When I show you. ( it’s because I don’t like you)
Guess you used that like thing as my reason. 
has nothing to do with liking or not liking you sir. It has to do with forum rules. And I’ll post a few sence you feel you have not broken any. Your teetering on the edge. 
Maybe good reading for several scare crow kickers
From the rules. 

Furthermore, it is the intent of the Forum to provide an atmosphere where every member, regardless of age, nationality, race, creed, religion, political persuasion, sex, or level of education, shall be treated with the respect due them. This concept will be enforced with vigor.

The Forum expects and encourages the lively exchange of ideas and opinions. The Forum also expects these exchanges to be free of rancor and personal invectives. The rules are simple and clear for all. Be polite or be gone.

Any material deemed to be in poor taste or inflammatory to the forum and/or it's members can be removed arbitrarily by an ADMIN or MOD.

Use of this Board in any manner constitutes acceptance of the rules and of this disclaimer.

Thankyou for reading 
Kmac


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## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Situational morals change. Absolute morals do not. Without absolute morals, there is no right and there is no wrong.


Not sure thats accurate, at least not as you have written it.
What is an "absolute moral" is still an individual's or group's opinion/philosophy.


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## Ray357 (Mar 20, 2021)

[QUOTE





WaltL1 said:


> Not sure thats accurate, at least not as you have written it.
> What is an "absolute moral" is still an individual's or group's opinion/philosophy.


Absolute morality comes from The Creator, The sovereign God. Without morality being defined by God, all morality is relative. When you boil it all down, It's decided upon by who has the most powerful military.


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## jollyroger (Mar 20, 2021)

I am probably more agnostic than anything, I was raised Catholic and my family are all practicing Catholics.

I keep a light finger on the goings on with the church more out of tradition than spirituality.

I have zero problems with Christians, in fact I probably get along better with Christians than atheists.

My son attends Sunday school (on Saturday) every week and I actively encourage it; I want him to come to his own conclusions as I was afforded the same opportunity, I would never dream of denying him experiencing Christianity.

The atheists in this sub are some of the most open minded and polite people I've encountered.

There are some real atheist pills out their that I do not wish to associate with.

And Walt keeps a nice music thread going, so there's that too.


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## Ray357 (Mar 20, 2021)

jollyroger said:


> I am probably more agnostic than anything, I was raised Catholic and my family are all practicing Catholics.
> 
> I keep a light finger on the goings on with the church more out of tradition than spirituality.
> 
> ...


I have observed that in general, the most vocal (on both sides) are trying to convince themselves more than others. Those secure in their positions can peacefully dialogue across the aisle.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> [QUOTE
> Absolute morality comes from The Creator, The sovereign God. Without morality being defined by God, all morality is relative. When you boil it all down, It's decided upon by who has the most powerful military.





> Absolute morality comes from The Creator, The sovereign God. Without morality being defined by God, all morality is relative.


Yes that would be your individual and your group's (Christianity) opinion/philosophy. Just like I said.
And even that changes with the times.


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## Ray357 (Mar 20, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes that would be your individual and your group's (Christianity) opinion/philosophy. Just like I said.
> And even that changes with the times.


Without God,bthere is no absolute morality. We can agree on that.  Without absolute morality, might makes right. There is no true morality.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2021)

jollyroger said:


> I am probably more agnostic than anything, I was raised Catholic and my family are all practicing Catholics.
> 
> I keep a light finger on the goings on with the church more out of tradition than spirituality.
> 
> ...





> There are some real atheist pills out their that I do not wish to associate with.


We've chased more than one of those pills out of here over the years. They only come to insult and couldnt hold an intelligent discussion/debate to save their lives. Or maybe they could but they didnt come here for that.


> I was raised Catholic and my family are all practicing Catholics.


Same here.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Without God,bthere is no absolute morality. We can agree on that.  Without absolute morality, might makes right. There is no true morality.





> Without God, there is no absolute morality.


I can agree with that.
Of course you would have to prove there is a God to prove there are absolute morals.


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## Ray357 (Mar 20, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> I can agree with that.
> Of course you would have to prove there is a God to prove there are absolute morals.


Why? That would be an absolute statement which comes from absolute truth. Without absolute truth, which philosophers have forever entwined   with absolute morality, there is no need to prove anything. Absolutes do not exist in post modern philosophy. We can either have absolutes or we can't.you are asking for a proof. Proof defies postmodernism because it establishes absolute truth.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Why? That would be an absolute statement which comes from absolute truth. Without absolute truth, which philosophers have forever entwined   with absolute morality, there is no need to prove anything. Absolutes do not exist in post modern philosophy. We can either have absolutes or we can't.you are asking for a proof. Proof defies postmodernism because it establishes absolute truth.


1st -
Im not asking for proof of anything. There is no proof, other than what an individual believes is proof, of God or any gods.
2nd -
Way back up there in the beginning you said -


> Without absolute morals, there is no right and there is no wrong.


And that those absolute morals come from the Creator/God.
Soooo, for there to be absolute morals, there would have to be proof there is God.
If you can't prove there is a God, you cant prove there are absolute morals.
And that would make what Bullet said in post #13 accurate.
3rd -
All that postmodernism stuff is just gobbledygook to me. Its just another type of philosophy.


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## Ray357 (Mar 20, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> 1st -
> Im not asking for proof of anything. There is no proof, other than what an individual believes is proof, of God or any gods.
> 2nd -
> Way back up there in the beginning you said -
> ...


I think that's what I said.


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## bullethead (Mar 20, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> [QUOTE
> Absolute morality comes from The Creator, The sovereign God. Without morality being defined by God, all morality is relative. When you boil it all down, It's decided upon by who has the most powerful military.


Well, that is not an exclusive club. There are lots of "creators " credited for such things.


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## Ray357 (Mar 20, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Well, that is not an exclusive club. There are lots of "creators " credited for such things.


Lots of gods. One Creator God.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> I think that's what I said.


If thats what you said, I misunderstood. My bad.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 20, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Lots of gods. One Creator God.


Ive got to ask -
You do realize thats just your opinion/belief and not an established fact right?


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## Ray357 (Mar 20, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Ive got to ask -
> You do realize thats just your opinion/belief and not an established fact right?


Yes. If I could prove my belief, we would not be having this conversation and if you could prove yours we would not be having it.


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## ky55 (Mar 20, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Yes. If I could prove my belief, we would not be having this conversation and if you could prove yours we would not be having it.



What does Walt need to prove?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Yes. If I could prove my belief, we would not be having this conversation and if you could prove yours we would not be having it.


Ok good. I'm just trying to get a baseline of how honest we are being here.
And my belief is that it is not an established fact that there is a God or gods. So the default is that there isnt and arent.
No more, no less.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Lots of gods. One Creator God.


You are making assertions. Anyone can literally say anything. The next step is to back up such statements with proof which turns what you assert into fact.
When you admit that you cannot prove anything that you say is anything other than wishful thinking, indoctrination,  and a feeling or belief then you are not spreading the word you are telling tall tales.
If something is the Ultimate Truth why can't anyone show it, prove it or have it agreed upon universally by everyone?
What you are saying is the equivalent of touting your own favorite sports team, athlete, food, vehicle manufacturer,  fishing line preferences or dog breed and telling everyone else that what you like or use is "the best"  and you provide no proof other than just saying it.  Cases could be made about the things mentioned above and examples of each could be provided along with evidence in order to make a good argument as to why one may or may not be the best.
But,  when someone wants to talk god(s) , Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary evidence and all anyone has to do to put the argument to rest is to back up what they claim and assert with facts and evidence. It should not be hard to do if in fact it has any truth to it whatsoever.

You are telling us what the color gray smells like and are expecting us to believe what your guess is to be true just because.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Yes. If I could prove my belief, we would not be having this conversation and if you could prove yours we would not be having it.


So are you here to make proclamations about what you believe or are you here to prove what you believe is true?
Walt isn't stating anything as fact. He is not making a "belief" claim. He is asking you (or anyone) if it is possible to be able to back up what is claimed with evidence.  "We" aren't claiming Bigfoot exists and can do this, has done that and is the sole source of morals, decency and all that wonderful. We would first have to establish Bigfoot existed and THEN provide evidence that all those other things are a result of his doing. A person just cannot assert  " Bigfoot is responsible for Buicks...buicks exist, therefore Bigfoot exits" which is what you are doing with a god.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Why? That would be an absolute statement which comes from absolute truth. Without absolute truth, which philosophers have forever entwined   with absolute morality, there is no need to prove anything. Absolutes do not exist in post modern philosophy. We can either have absolutes or we can't.you are asking for a proof. Proof defies postmodernism because it establishes absolute truth.


Shouldn't a god of any merit(I mean that's why a god would be worthy of being a god) be able to provide undeniable and unquestionable absolute truth no matter what "ism" of society is in favor at the moment?


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## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> So are you here to make proclamations about what you believe or are you here to prove what you believe is true?
> Walt isn't stating anything as fact. He is not making a "belief" claim. He is asking you (or anyone) if it is possible to be able to back up what is claimed with evidence.  "We" aren't claiming Bigfoot exists and can do this, has done that and is the sole source of morals, decency and all that wonderful. We would first have to establish Bigfoot existed and THEN provide evidence that all those other things are a result of his doing. A person just cannot assert  " Bigfoot is responsible for Buicks...buicks exist, therefore Bigfoot exits" which is what you are doing with a god.


Yep proving God or a god exists is just the first step. Its a great start but
then you have to prove the god is what men claim it to be, has done, will do, etc. etc.
Proving God or a god exists only proves just that, not the story that goes along with it.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

jollyroger said:


> I am probably more agnostic than anything, I was raised Catholic and my family are all practicing Catholics.
> 
> I keep a light finger on the goings on with the church more out of tradition than spirituality.
> 
> ...





> My son attends Sunday school (on Saturday) every week


Man I used to HATE going to Catechism as a kid. Beautiful Saturday morning, all I wanted to do was go fishing, climbing trees, playing in the river etc.
The only thing that made it bearable was all my friends had to go to Catechism too.


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## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2021)

Newt2 said:


> I'm an Atheist and have been lurking this section for a while now. Because there are 4 other sections where folks can proclaim their faith, I thought this was one to find others that share my belief (or lack there of). After viewing a hundred threads and hundreds of posts, I found that 95% appear to be those trying to convince Atheists, etc., to convert to their religion, aka christianity.
> 
> One thread in particular, "Atheist Church" was quite misleading. To me, these "churches" are trying to do what other religious believers do. Try to influence people to a single individual's belief(s). In this section, I hoped to meet folks here that are Atheists and how it relates to them in the shooting industry.
> 
> Hopefully on here we can keep it real. You have your beliefs and I have mine. I've left or been kicked out of countless forums because of who I am so we'll see.


Actually if you’d dig deeper you’d found that thread to be on topic instead of misleading. As older threads here have comments that Atheism is not a religious group or have a set of guidelines to go by. In was mostly questioning are they be attempting to do that.

And, sometimes you just have to post stuff to get a conversation started. It’s get stagnant for a while, then it’ll heat up a while, etc.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Yep proving God or a god exists is just the first step. Its a great start but
> then you have to prove the god is what men claim it to be, has done, will do, etc. etc.
> Proving God or a god exists only proves just that, not the story that goes along with it.


Like they always say "That first step is a DOOZIE"


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## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> You are making assertions. Anyone can literally say anything. The next step is to back up such statements with proof which turns what you assert into fact.
> When you admit that you cannot prove anything that you say is anything other than wishful thinking, indoctrination,  and a feeling or belief then you are not spreading the word you are telling tall tales.
> If something is the Ultimate Truth why can't anyone show it, prove it or have it agreed upon universally by everyone?
> What you are saying is the equivalent of touting your own favorite sports team, athlete, food, vehicle manufacturer,  fishing line preferences or dog breed and telling everyone else that what you like or use is "the best"  and you provide no proof other than just saying it.  Cases could be made about the things mentioned above and examples of each could be provided along with evidence in order to make a good argument as to why one may or may not be the best.
> ...


I am making the point none of it can be proven, but without an absolute moral basis, there is no morality.


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## jollyroger (Mar 21, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Man I used to HATE going to Catechism as a kid. Beautiful Saturday morning, all I wanted to do was go fishing, climbing trees, playing in the river etc.
> The only thing that made it bearable was all my friends had to go to Catechism too.


Same here lol.

Same reason my son hates it now, he feels like his Saturday has been taken away from him.

He just made his First Confession a few weeks ago, was super nervous but he did fine.

Father Jude Michael is good man, tall and broad with a booming voice but gentle as a lamb, pretty funny too so makes it pretty easy on the kids. He's of the Franciscan Order so his token vow is poverty.

I didn't miss a beat, the day after Confirmation I left the church.

Like I was saying I still attend from time to time more for nostalgic reasons and for my kids' sacraments, but other than that I don't practice anymore.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> I am making the point none of it can be proven, but without an absolute moral basis, there is no morality.


There are no absolutes where morals are concerned. Man decides. It is ever changing depending upon uncountable factors.
Humans feel the need to attribute "good" "absolute" "higher authority " to a made up better version of themselves. "God" is what they want or need themselves to be and to use as an excuse as why they are forgiven because they are not.


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## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> I am making the point none of it can be proven, but without an absolute moral basis, there is no morality.


I’m Christian but you gotta realize that  religious and non-religious recognize a basis for morality.

Where they don’t agree is where that basis comes from - God or nature? If you say it’s from God, you gotta prove God.

For the record - I believe it’s from God.


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## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> I’m Christian but you gotta realize that  religious and non-religious recognize a basis for morality.
> 
> Where they don’t agree is where that basis comes from - God or nature? If you say it’s from God, you gotta prove God.
> 
> For the record - I believe it’s from God.


I do not have to prove God to use Him as the basis for morality.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> I do not have to prove God to use Him as the basis for morality.


You can substitute the word Can't  in the also.
Now, if you use God's actions within the Bible as your basis for morals....well.....your God has a lot to improve on.


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## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> You can substitute the word Can't  in the also.
> Now, if you use God's actions within the Bible as your basis for morals....well.....your God has a lot to improve on.


God has nothing to improve on. His actions are righteous. His actions are just. The creator is not subject to the judgment by His creation.  Aside from that, Who decides any actions are good or bad?  He who has the best nuclear weapons with the best delivery system?  
Why is anything good?
Why is anything bad? 
Who says what is good or bad?


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## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> You can substitute the word Can't  in the also.
> Now, if you use God's actions within the Bible as your basis for morals....well.....your God has a lot to improve on.


You can't disprove Him either.


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## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

I have participated here in the past and it’s mostly a game of gotcha as far as I’m concerned.  It only takes a few posts to get you to “you can’t prove that God exists.”  That’s right.  Sure can’t.  I believe he does.  It’s a matter of faith.  But as soon as you say that they spike the football and act like they won the pony or whatever.  I’m not going to try to convince anyone of anything.  There is no way to do that and they are just going dig in if you try.  Whether or not someone believes in God is between them and God.  I care but I’m not going to spend time on it.  The issue I have with a lot of atheists is they like to brag about the fact that they’re atheists but don’t want you say a word about your being a Christian.  That’s a drag.  And a lot of them are anything but open minded.  Someone who is always running their gator about how open minded they are causes me to be as suspicious as someone who talks about how honest they are.  I’ll have these conversations with a friend who wants to have them.  But even then I’m not starting the conversation and as far as having them with people on the internet, no thanks.  If you think this place is on life support there are some real obvious reasons as to why.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> God has nothing to improve on. His actions are righteous. His actions are just. The creator is not subject to the judgment by His creation.  Aside from that, Who decides any actions are good or bad?  He who has the best nuclear weapons with the best delivery system?
> Why is anything good?
> Why is anything bad?
> Who says what is good or bad?


Ray you are acting as if you know your particular god.
What you list above are excuses laid out by clergy that try to make the actions of a homicidal sadistic maniac seem excusable. 
You admit that you cannot prove your god and then tell us all about him.
Have you ever had a conversation with god? What does his voice sound like?


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## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> I do not have to prove God to use Him as the basis for morality.


No you don’t have to prove anything to anyone.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> You can't disprove Him either.


That burden is not on me.
I cannot disprove anything that is made up in anyone's mind but that in no way shape or form then makes such outlandish concepts true.
I can say that The Creator is a Good Witch and we live in her crystal ball.
Using YOUR criteria you would have to believe me and acknowledge her existence because you could not prove that she didn't exist.

Do you acknowledge the existence of every one of the thousands upon thousands of other gods that have been conjured up in the minds of humans?
If no why not?
Do you walk cautiously at night because Vampires, wherewolves, mean Leprechauns,  The Jersey Devil, Bigfoot, the Lockness Monster,  and every other fictional creature anyone has made up is out possibly out there since you cannot prove them wrong?
The god you believe in is in the same category as the rest, but somehow even while you admit that the most Truthful being ever to exist cannot be proven, you somehow can speak for its existence.  You cannot prove the most provable,  yet you credit it for things that you have no evidence of.
I am not saying these things in a mean or negative way. I am pointing out that all you have is your beliefs which are no different than all the other varying beliefs that you do not believe in because those sound preposterous to you and defy logic and lack evidence.
You believe in One less god than I do.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> No you don’t have to prove anything to anyone.


Unless you are trying to convince others that what you say is true, then proof is very important. Otherwise, believe as you do, enjoy it but do not try to pass off assertions, claims and feelings as fact.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Unless you are trying to convince others that what you say is true, then proof is very important. Otherwise, believe as you do, enjoy it but do not try to pass off assertions, claims and feelings as fact.


Yup, exactly. Agreed.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> I have participated here in the past and it’s mostly a game of gotcha as far as I’m concerned.  It only takes a few posts to get you to “you can’t prove that God exists.”  That’s right.  Sure can’t.  I believe he does.  It’s a matter of faith.  But as soon as you say that they spike the football and act like they won the pony or whatever.  I’m not going to try to convince anyone of anything.  There is no way to do that and they are just going dig in if you try.  Whether or not someone believes in God is between them and God.  I care but I’m not going to spend time on it.  The issue I have with a lot of atheists is they like to brag about the fact that they’re atheists but don’t want you say a word about your being a Christian.  That’s a drag.  And a lot of them are anything but open minded.  Someone who is always running their gator about how open minded they are causes me to be as suspicious as someone who talks about how honest they are.  I’ll have these conversations with a friend who wants to have them.  But even then I’m not starting the conversation and as far as having them with people on the internet, no thanks.  If you think this place is on life support there are some real obvious reasons as to why.


Hey as long as someone identifies something else as being real, who needs proof right? That is why thousands upon thousands of gods exist.

If I bragged that I shot the world record whitetail,  500+" inches of typical antler, 597lbs live weight, 8ft long nose to butt, have official certification, pictures and video of it both alive and dead and a full mount in my living room and when asked to prove it my reply is "I don't have to because you cannot prove that what I say is not true", well.....yeah that is life support worthy.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> You can't disprove Him either.


Disprove The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Hey as long as someone identifies something else as being real, who needs proof right? That is why thousands upon thousands of gods exist.
> 
> If I bragged that I shot the world record whitetail,  500+" inches of typical antler, 597lbs live weight, 8ft long nose to butt, have official certification, pictures and video of it both alive and dead and a full mount in my living room and when asked to prove it my reply is "I don't have to because you cannot prove that what I say is not true", well.....yeah that is life support worthy.


I don’t care what you do or don’t do.  Don’t be so emotional about this.


----------



## Newt2 (Mar 21, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> And, sometimes you just have to post stuff to get a conversation started.


That's true. I believe I have contributed with this thread as it now has over 60 posts.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> I don’t care what you do or don’t do.  Don’t be so emotional about this.


This is conversation.
Zero emotion 
I like to hear facts based off evidence when someone claims something.  Religion or Not


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Newt2 said:


> That's true. I believe I have contributed with this thread as it now has over 60 posts.


Really you just started a new thread which allowed some new contributors to re-say the things that have been said 100x already.
I got interested hoping that someone would take a new angle and present something beyond feelings or opinions. When the realization hits that their proof is feelings from indoctrination plus the ability to assign an unexplainable life event to their favorite god as some sort of proof then it is easier to go away from the forum rather than admit that the evidence does not back up their claims and look at it from another angle.
Many non believers were once believers so they can see it from both sides and be objective.


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Disprove The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster


Exactly. A very old argument in philosophy, though not called the spaghetti monster. There is no proof on either side. Only evidence. The evidence will be seen differently by all sides.


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> That burden is not on me.
> I cannot disprove anything that is made up in anyone's mind but that in no way shape or form then makes such outlandish concepts true.
> I can say that The Creator is a Good Witch and we live in her crystal ball.
> Using YOUR criteria you would have to believe me and acknowledge her existence because you could not prove that she didn't exist.
> ...


I don't have a burden to prove. Without absolute morality, each does right in his own eyes.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> I don't have a burden to prove. Without absolute morality, each does right in his own eyes.


You said a god exists. That requires proof. Absolutely morality can be discussed after that.


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Ray you are acting as if you know your particular god.
> What you list above are excuses laid out by clergy that try to make the actions of a homicidal sadistic maniac seem excusable.
> You admit that you cannot prove your god and then tell us all about him.
> Have you ever had a conversation with god? What does his voice sound like?


I do know God and have a personal relationship with Him. Aside from that, who says anything you mentioned is wrong to do. Assuning He did that, which He didn't. Who says? Who makes the determination?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> God has nothing to improve on. His actions are righteous. His actions are just. The creator is not subject to the judgment by His creation.  Aside from that, Who decides any actions are good or bad?  He who has the best nuclear weapons with the best delivery system?
> Why is anything good?
> Why is anything bad?
> Who says what is good or bad?





> Who decides any actions are good or bad?


Ask the roughly 2.2 million prisoners in the US that question.


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> You said a god exists. That requires proof. Absolutely morality can be discussed after that.


Who says? My morality says we can discuss anything in any order.


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Ask the roughly 2.2 million prisoners in the US that question.


Laws, not morality.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Exactly. A very old argument in philosophy, though not called the spaghetti monster. There is no proof on either side. Only evidence. The evidence will be seen differently by all sides.


Who could honestly question something supposedly unable to be questioned due to that thing being absolute in every way?
There would have to be flaws in the evidence,  and that is what we have here.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> I do know God and have a personal relationship with Him. Aside from that, who says anything you mentioned is wrong to do. Assuning He did that, which He didn't. Who says? Who makes the determination?


I am asking this sincerely,  can you tell us about your personal relationship with god?
What does gods voice sound like? What does god look like?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Who says? My morality says we can discuss anything in any order.


If you are unable to back up your god claim please just admit it. Why is it so  difficult to do if your god is real?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Laws, not morality.


Actually no.
Juries and judges decide if the laws were broken. In other words PEOPLE decided.
Laws cant make decisions or physically put anybody in prison.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Who says? My morality says we can discuss anything in any order.


You said morality come from your god. We both agreed there are morals. 
We have moved on to your god now. 
Or would you rather me say that morality comes from a 6 foot rabbit that hides eggs and you'll be fine with that answer?
I said morality comes from humans and it is always changing.  I think we both acknowledged that both are involved. 
You added another being into it and and it is now time to back up the claim such a being exists.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Exactly. A very old argument in philosophy, though not called the spaghetti monster. There is no proof on either side. Only evidence. The evidence will be seen differently by all sides.


I think evidence is what the atheist / agnostic / non believer wants you to provide if you’re telling them there’s a God. If you can’t, you’re spinning your wheels. 

I fully believe without a shadow of a doubt that the God of the Bible is real, but I know that according to John 6 that only God can draw them. All I gotta do is tell my story and move along.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> This is conversation.
> Zero emotion
> I like to hear facts based off evidence when someone claims something.  Religion or Not


Ten four.  Just comes off as emotional.  Besides, just because that’s what you like doesn’t mean anyone has to play along.  And nothing anyone says about this is going to suit you.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> I don't have a burden to prove. Without absolute morality, each does right in his own eyes.


Ray we can provide you with multiple examples of what is considered moral changing based on when and where.
Why can we do that if morality is absolute?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> I think evidence is what the atheist / agnostic / non believer wants you to provide if you’re telling them there’s a God. If you can’t, you’re spinning your wheels.
> 
> I fully believe without a shadow of a doubt that the God of the Bible is real, but I know that according to John 6 that only God can draw them. All I gotta do is tell my story and move along.


A verse telllling me that a verse is true is like the Braves mascot telling me that the Braves are the best baseball team ever and it is because it says so right here on page 6 in our program.
If the Braves mascot then says anyone who does not agree that the Braves are the best team ever is because our team owner either needs to let them be fans or the team owner has decided that they are not worthy of being fans just sounds corny.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Ten four.  Just comes off as emotional.  Besides, just because that’s what you like doesn’t mean anyone has to play along.  And nothing anyone says about this is going to suit you.


The ability of someone that can make a claim and then back it up with undeniable facts with examples of indisputable evidence suits me just fine.
I am dying for that to happen one day regarding religious claims.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> A verse telllling me that a verse is true is like the Braves mascot telling me that the Braves are the best baseball team ever and it is because it says so right here on page 6 in our program.
> If the Braves mascot then says anyone who does not agree that the Braves are the best team ever is because our team owner either needs to let them be fans or the team owner has decided that they are not worthy of being fans just sounds corny.


But they are the best ever until 3rd inning.

The verse is for Ray - I know better than to give you one lol


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Ten four.  Just comes off as emotional.  Besides, just because that’s what you like doesn’t mean anyone has to play along.  And nothing anyone says about this is going to suit you.


The 3rd A in this forum is Apologetics.
apologetics
[əˌpäləˈjediks]
NOUN
1. reasoned arguments or writings in justification of something, typically a theory or religious doctrine.

I think that would require one to "play along" to do.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Ten four.  Just comes off as emotional.  Besides, just because that’s what you like doesn’t mean anyone has to play along.  And nothing anyone says about this is going to suit you.


You would love to show me and every other non believer indisputable evidence that would make us shut our mouths and be the end all to prove to everyone there is a god.
I would love for you or anyone else to provide that evidence to me and literally change my mind.
Do you have such evidence and just refuse to show it?
Or do you not have that evidence?

Saying you don't want to play along is a round about way of saying "I've got nothing but cannot admit it"


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> The ability of someone that can make a claim and then back it up with undeniable facts with examples of indisputable evidence suits me just fine.
> I am dying for that to happen one day regarding religious claims.


You’re dying for it to happen.  That’s what I meant by emotional.  Why do you even care?  If you think it’s all nonsense to you then it’s no skin off your nose what other people believe.  But you’re dying for them to do as you think they should and to prove it to you. I do t understand that.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> But they are the best ever until 3rd inning.
> 
> The verse is for Ray - I know better than to give you one lol


Former Phillies fan here...tell me about it, lolololol


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> The 3rd A in this forum is Apologetics.
> apologetics
> [əˌpäləˈjediks]
> NOUN
> ...


Yeah but nobody is actually “required” to do anything besides stay within forum rules.  Neither of you guys are anything but just members here same as anyone else.  I don’t know where the idea comes from that you are entitled to anything from other members other than common courtesy and why you think you get to make demands of others.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> You’re dying for it to happen.  That’s what I meant by emotional.  Why do you even care?  If you think it’s all nonsense to you then it’s no skin off your nose what other people believe.  But you’re dying for them to do as you think they should and to prove it to you. I do t understand that.


Am I allowed to pursue things that interest me?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> But they are the best ever until 3rd inning.
> 
> The verse is for Ray - I know better than to give you one lol


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Am I allowed to pursue things that interest me?


Of course.  So are other people.  And they don’t owe you anything.  Including proof.  This isn’t a courtroom.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Yeah but nobody is actually “required” to do anything besides stay within forum rules.  Neither of you guys are anything just members here same as anyone else.  I don’t know where the idea comes from that you are entitled to anything from other members other than common courtesy and why you think you get to make demands of others.


Why did you enter the conversation?


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Who could honestly question something supposedly unable to be questioned due to that thing being absolute in every way?
> There would have to be flaws in the evidence,  and that is what we have here.


Why shouldn't I? My morality says I should.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Why did you enter the conversation?


Boredom.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Yeah but nobody is actually “required” to do anything besides stay within forum rules.  Neither of you guys are anything just members here same as anyone else.  I don’t know where the idea comes from that you are entitled to anything from other members other than common courtesy and why you think you get to make demands of others.


Is it unreasonable to expect Apologetics to take place from Christians or religious folks when they come in to the Atheist/Agnostics/Apologetics forum?


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> I am asking this sincerely,  can you tell us about your personal relationship with god?
> What does gods voice sound like? What does god look like?


His voice sounds like a still small voice.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Of course.  So are other people.  And they don’t owe you anything.  Including proof.  This isn’t a courtroom.


I agree.
The point of decent conversation is to back up what is said/claimed.
If you want me to believe that you or anyone can prove a god and just won't to spite me, I can see through the answer.
Claim away


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Is it unreasonable to expect Apologetics to take place from Christians or religious folks when they come in to the Atheist/Agnostics/Apologetics forum?


I think it’s unreasonable to “expect” anything other than for people to not make personal attacks.  You can’t make people do what you want them to do.  That’s why I don’t care what y’all believe or don’t believe.  I mean I care but I realize there’s nothing I can do about it.


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Ray we can provide you with multiple examples of what is considered moral changing based on when and where.
> Why can we do that if morality is absolute?


The only morality that matters is absolute.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> His voice sounds like a still small voice.


Can you ask him to talk to me?
Please let me know what he says and as soon as he does I will report what he said here word for word.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> I agree.
> The point of decent conversation is to back up what is said/claimed.
> If you want me to believe that you or anyone can prove a god and just won't to spite me, I can see through the answer.
> Claim away


I don’t want you to believe anything.  It’s up to you.  I’m pretty indifferent as to your unbelief.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> I think it’s unreasonable to “expect” anything other than for people to not make personal attacks.  You can’t make people do what you want them to do.  That’s why I don’t care what y’all believe or don’t believe.  I mean I care but I realize there’s nothing I can do about it.


We are asking people to do what they claim they can do. For anyone that does not fit that bill we absolutely understand why.


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Can you ask him to talk to me?
> Please let me know what he says and as soon as he does I will report what he said here word for word.


I could ask. He probably won't. I would venture that you are not elect. The Gospel speaks to those who have ears to hear.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> I don’t want you to believe anything.  It’s up to you.  I’m pretty indifferent as to your unbelief.


Ok yet you engage me as a diversion away from someone who may be able to do what you cannot


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> I think it’s unreasonable to “expect” anything other than for people to not make personal attacks.  You can’t make people do what you want them to do.  That’s why I don’t care what y’all believe or don’t believe.  I mean I care but I realize there’s nothing I can do about it.


Why are the forums broken down into different subject matters?
Any chance its becuase that subject matter is to be the main topic?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> We are asking people to do what they claim they can do. For anyone that does not fit that bill we absolutely understand why.


Who claims they can prove God’s existence?  Has anybody done that?  What it seems like is you guys like to taunt people and mock their faith but try to pass it off as something loftier.  That may not be what it is but that’s how it comes across.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> I could ask. He probably won't. I would venture that you are not elect. The Gospel speaks to those who have ears to hear.


Ohhhhh darn it.
So then am I doing EXACTLY what your god designed me to do then?
If I am not elect then free will goes out the window.
If god doesn't want certain people then why tell his flock to go preach?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Ok yet you engage me as a diversion away from someone who may be able to do what you cannot


Diversion?  How?  He’s still right there.  Don’t be paranoid.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Why are the forums broken down into different subject matters?
> Any chance its becuase that subject matter is to be the main topic?


Yeah that’s goal but if you think this is the only forum that gets off topic you ought to look at some of the others.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Yeah that’s goal but if you think this is the only forum that gets off topic you ought to look at some of the others.


I look at and participate in a number of others. When they get too far or off topic for too long its asked/directed/required to get back on topic.
EDIT -
By the way we often get off topic and enjoy it. We talk about guns, fishing, music, hunting etc here also. But when someone wants to get back on topic we do.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Who claims they can prove God’s existence?  Has anybody done that?  What it seems like is you guys like to taunt people and mock their faith but try to pass it off as something loftier.  That may not be what it is but that’s how it comes across.


I am asking people to back up the claims they make.

If someone says god is real and the ultimate truth is it too much to expect something touted to be so absolute to have evidence that backs that up?

When someone says those things in the AAA forum I take it as they want to discuss such things with people who are not of the same mindset as they are, otherwise they could go a few doors up and have 100 Amens and hallelujahs in agreement with everything they say.

This is not the proclamation area. While you are right that nobody owes anyone anything in here, a certain standard has been set , no different than other forums and the regulars adhere to them.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> I look at and participate in a number of others. When they get too far or off topic for too long its asked/directed/required to get back on topic.


Well somebody might come in and require me directly but that’s not your job.  And you boys complain that this place is dead and then when you finally get somebody to post in it you complain about what they do post.  Can’t have it both ways.  Beggars and choosers and all that.


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Ohhhhh darn it.
> So then am I doing EXACTLY what your god designed me to do then?
> If I am not elect then free will goes out the window.
> If god doesn't want certain people then why tell his flock to go preach?


It all depends on exactly how you define free will. For ease of conversation, we can say the type free will you are referring to does not. 
Why preach? The elect are saved through The Gospel. It's going to happen anyway, right? Yeah. We preach because we are commanded to preach. Illogical? By my logic. God's logic is higher than my logic.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Let me ask a question to those that want to answer.
Why is the ultimate truth such as a god unable to be proven?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> I am asking people to back up the claims they make.
> 
> If someone says god is real and the ultimate truth is it too much to expect something touted to be so absolute to have evidence that backs that up?
> 
> ...


Ten forty.  I don’t see anybody claiming they can prove that God exists though.  I just see you two daring people to do it and demanding people post how you want them to.  If you want more participation here like you say you do you might have to relax on having it all just like you want it.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Well somebody might come in and require me directly but that’s not your job.  And you boys complain that this place is dead and then when you finally get somebody to post in it you complain about what they do post.  Can’t have it both ways.  Beggars and choosers and all that.


This place is dead because the believers cannot back up their claims.
We are not complaining we are discussing. Part of a discussion is for dialog back and forth that can potentially change anothers mind or at the least allow them think.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> The only morality that matters is absolute.


Ray please give some examples of absolute morality. I think it would help, at least me, to better understand what your definition of it is.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Ten forty.  I don’t see anybody claiming they can prove that God exists though.  I just see you two daring people to do it and demanding people post how you want them to.  If you want more participation here like you say you do you might have to relax on having it all just like you want it.


If you've been here long enough or go back through the posts over the years all that has been and has evolved to where it is at now.

Are you admitting that you worship something that may not exist?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Ten forty.  I don’t see anybody claiming they can prove that God exists though.  I just see you two daring people to do it and demanding people post how you want them to.  If you want more participation here like you say you do you might have to relax on having it all just like you want it.


Why can't a person prove god?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> This place is dead because the believers cannot back up their claims.
> We are not complaining we are discussing. Part of a discussion is for dialog back and forth that can potentially change anothers mind or at the least allow them think.


You can’t have give and take when you act like you get to dictate to others and act as if you run the forum.  I mean do what you want to do but if you’re going to act like that you can’t be surprised that nobody wants to play.  But maybe y’all two just like having your own private forum.  I don’t know.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> If you've been here long enough or go back through the posts over the years all that has been and has evolved to where it is at now.
> 
> Are you admitting that you worship something that may not exist?


I admitted that I can’t prove it way back there.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Why can't a person prove god?


Can’t see him or touch him.  I’m not bothered by that.  You are.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Let me ask a question to those that want to answer.
> Why is the ultimate truth such as a god unable to be proven?


Because at this point one can only believe there is a (G)god.
Thats why making claims of fact dont work.


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Let me ask a question to those that want to answer.
> Why is the ultimate truth such as a god unable to be proven?


Why can't you disprove Him? I know the old philosophical argument. It's an argument, not an answer.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> You can’t have give and take when you act like you get to dictate to others and act as if you run the forum.  I mean do what you want to do but if you’re going to act like that you can’t be surprised that nobody wants to play.  But maybe y’all two just like having your own private forum.  I don’t know.


I'll help.
Youre right, you dont know.
And we dont think we run the forum. The moderators do.
We would be quite happy to have as many folks as possible, believer and non to participate.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> You can’t have give and take when you act like you get to dictate to others and act as if you run the forum.  I mean do what you want to do but if you’re going to act like that you can’t be surprised that nobody wants to play.  But maybe y’all two just like having your own private forum.  I don’t know.


You've given me that title, I am just participating


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Why can't a person prove god?


He designed His creation that way. Every knee shall bow. Until that time...


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> You've given me that title, I am just participating


Ok.  Makes no difference to me if your forum has no traffic.  But if you would change your attitude a little you might get more participation is all.  If that’s what you want.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Why can't you disprove Him? I know the old philosophical argument. It's an argument, not an answer.


I can't disprove anything that lacks existence


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> You've given me that title, I am just participating


We are all just participating. We are all just bored.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Ok.  Makes no difference to me if your forum has no traffic.  But if you would change your attitude a little you might get more participation is all.  If that’s what you want.


Not my forum.
Who claimed that?
Are you making assertions?


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> I'll help.
> Youre right, you dont know.
> And we dont think we run the forum. The moderators do.
> We would be quite happy to have as many folks as possible, believer and non to participate.


If that’s true you should try not being quite so hostile the minute you do get some participation.  Or you two could just talk to each other.  That seems boring though.


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> I can't disprove anything that lacks existence


You have not proven a lack of existence.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Not my forum.
> Who claimed that?
> Are you making assertions?


I’m just repeating what you said.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> I’m just repeating what you said.


Please quote the post where I said this is my forum


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> If that’s true you should try not being quite so hostile the minute you do get some participation.  Or you two could just talk to each other.  That seems boring though.


Asking tough pointed questions is not being hostile. Its the basis of debate.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> You have not proven a lack of existence.


Impossible to prove a negative.
I am asking for evidence and nobody can provide it.

There is a reason why no bigfoot corpses are found and no evidence that they exist. They dont exist until there is evidence.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> You have not proven a lack of existence.


We didnt claim lack of existence being a fact.
You just interpret it that way.
However you have claimed certain things as fact. So we are pressing you to back them up.
And I hope you respond to my question about giving examples of absolute morality.
We often go around in circles because of differences in definitions.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> We are all just participating. We are all just bored.


If the only reason you are here is because you are bored, you are wasting our time.
We are here because its a subject we are interested in.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Please quote the post where I said this is my forum


No I was saying that you said nobody participated.  I know you didn’t say that it’s your forum.  Y’all just come across like you think that.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Asking tough pointed questions is not being hostile. Its the basis of debate.


Ten four buddy.  But when the fish aren’t biting it seems like you would switch up bait rather than complain that the fish just can’t handle or appreciate what you’re using.  Keep doing what you’re doing if you like things the way they are.


----------



## Newt2 (Mar 21, 2021)

Today's quote:

“There is something infantile in the presumption that somebody else has a responsibility to give your life meaning and point… The truly adult view, by contrast, is that our life is as meaningful, as full and as wonderful as we choose to make it.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> No I was saying that you said nobody participated.  I know you didn’t say that it’s your forum.  Y’all just come across like you think that.


"We" are the ones participating that are Agnostics and both Walt and I have been here long enough that we have seen and heard all this before so we cut right to the chase.
Spotlite is an Apologetic that has participated for as long as I can remember. 
Being familiar with each other and other regulars has allowed us all to know how conversations go and we get right to it.
It is not "our" forum, we are just seasoned veterans who have discussed darn near everything there is to discuss over many years.


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Impossible to prove a negative.
> I am asking for evidence and nobody can provide it.
> 
> There is a reason why no bigfoot corpses are found and no evidence that they exist. They dont exist until there is evidence.


There is evidence. Not a level that will persuade you.


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> If the only reason you are here is because you are bored, you are wasting our time.
> We are here because its a subject we are interested in.


Yep, but y'all said no one would participate. I am not really interested, just trying to give you some traffic. I have heard all your arguments, they don't persuade me. You have heard all mine, they won't persuade you. I heard it all at UGA and at Seminary. You have heard it all too.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> There is evidence. Not a level that will persuade you.


Show it, give it, tell it,....


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Show it, give it, tell it,....


The greatest evidence is the statistical probabilities of Biblical prophecy. You are aware of it and dismiss it.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> The greatest evidence is the statistical probabilities of Biblical prophecy. You are aware of it and dismiss it.


Here is your chance to get a good convo going.
Show your evidence, make your case.


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Here is your chance to get a good convo going.
> Show your evidence, make your case.


Why? You have heard it already I am sure.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Why? You have heard it already I am sure.


ok Ray, the game is over. If you know anyone that wants to bring something up and actually discuss it tell them to stop by.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> "We" are the ones participating that are Agnostics and both Walt and I have been here long enough that we have seen and heard all this before so we cut right to the chase.
> Spotlite is an Apologetic that has participated for as long as I can remember.
> Being familiar with each other and other regulars has allowed us all to know how conversations go and we get right to it.
> It is not "our" forum, we are just seasoned veterans who have discussed darn near everything there is to discuss over many years.


Well then maybe that’s your problem.  Y’all have just run out of things to talk about.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> ok Ray, the game is over. If you know anyone that wants to bring something up and actually discuss it tell them to stop by.


Never mind.  Another part of the problem is that nobody can possibly tell you anything you don’t already know.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Well then maybe that’s your problem.  Y’all have just run out of things to talk about.


If you will take the time to look at the thread titles and content, nobody has been in here talking among ourselves complaining about a lack of conversations or topics. We aren't in here preaching to the choir just to reassure our own thoughts.
We don't have a problem.
We post when something is interesting.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> If you will take the time to look at the thread titles and content, nobody has been in here talking among ourselves complaining about a lack of conversations or topics. We aren't in here preaching to the choir just to reassure our own thoughts.
> We don't have a problem.
> We post when something is interesting.


Then y’all have it like you want it sounds like.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Never mind.  Another part of the problem is that nobody can possibly tell you anything you don’t already know.


I am literally asking him to show me and HE is telling ME that I already know it. You may want to recheck that post you made


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Ten four buddy.  But when the fish aren’t biting it seems like you would switch up bait rather than complain that the fish just can’t handle or appreciate what you’re using.  Keep doing what you’re doing if you like things the way they are.


Im not fishing. Didnt realize ya'll were fish. And you came here remember? I didnt come looking for you.
And thanks for the advice. The flip side of that could be "if you cant handle the heat stay out the kitchen".


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Then y’all have it like you want it sounds like.


We participate as it presents itself.
No need to assert things that aren't there


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Im not fishing. Didnt realize ya'll were fish. And you came here remember? I didnt come looking for you.
> And thanks for the advice. The flip side of that could be "if you cant handle the heat stay out the kitchen".


Heat??  This is a forum on the internet with two guys talking to each other.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> We participate as it presents itself.
> No need to assert things that aren't there


That’s good.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Heat??  This is a forum on the internet with two guys talking to each other.


Where did that happen?
We are talking to you and ray and spotlite


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Where did that happen?
> We are talking to you and ray and spotlite


Seems like y’all are talking past everybody for each other’s benefit.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Never mind.  Another part of the problem is that nobody can possibly tell you anything you don’t already know.


Post #151, care to address it?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Seems like y’all are talking past everybody for each other’s benefit.


You certainly have your version vs reality


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> Seems like y’all are talking past everybody for each other’s benefit.


You could easily go back and count how many times Bullet and I addressed each other and count how many times we have addressed you, Ray and Spotlite and see what nonsense that is.
You probably arent that bored though Im guessing.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Post #151, care to address it?


I already told you I can’t prove he exists but it’s like you won’t take that for an answer.  I’ve never heard a voice.  But I have never said that I did so I do t know why you asked.  I’ve asked for guidance and help and received it in unexpected ways when I had told nobody about whatever was on my mind.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> You could easily go back and count how many times Bullet and I addressed each other and count how many times we have addressed you, Ray and Spotlite and see what nonsense that is.
> You probably arent that bored though Im guessing.


I just don’t care very much.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> You certainly have your version vs reality


Don’t we all?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> I already told you I can’t prove he exists but it’s like you won’t take that for an answer.  I’ve never heard a voice.  But I have never said that I did so I do t know why you asked.  I’ve asked for guidance and help and received it in unexpected ways when I had told nobody about whatever was on my mind.


That is not what you quoted and replied to


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> That is not what you quoted and replied to


What?


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 21, 2021)

I'm out.


Danuwoa said:


> I just don’t care very much.


Yeah we can tell by your silence.
When I dont care very much I dont go somewhere and get involved.
But thats just me.
The conversation between you and I has just turned into nonsense so Im bowing out.
If you want to discuss something on topic I'll be glad to discuss/debate it with you.


----------



## Danuwoa (Mar 21, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> I'm out.
> 
> Yeah we can tell by your silence.
> When I dont care very much I dont go somewhere and get involved.
> ...


Lol.  If you two hadn’t kept quoting me I’d have been gone a long time ago.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Danuwoa said:


> What?


Posts #145 to #146, then you reply to that with post #148 quoting my reply to Ray.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Because at this point one can only believe there is a (G)god.
> Thats why making claims of fact dont work.



That’s why I started making clear that it’s what I believe and it’s because of.....


----------



## kmckinnie (Mar 21, 2021)

There may not be no “GOD” but what I’m amazed about..... is the miracle of life and my chance to live. My dad produced millions of chromosomes of which one fertilized a egg in my mothers womb. Which was done out of love. A feeling that No one can explain. This feeling is felt by everyone at one time or other. How this creation of live came about...... no one knows. If anyone of y’all can explain this to me. I would love to know. why did I come to exist out of millions of cells from my dad and thousands of cells from my mother. 
Guess I was just a lucky accident of the creation of life. 1in millions that alone is a fathom to realize. I passed a few a long the way my self. Out of millions of chances. A astronomical amount only made it. can anyone explain this to me.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

kmckinnie said:


> There may not be no “GOD” but what I’m amazed about..... is the miracle of life and my chance to live. My dad produced millions of chromosomes of which one fertilized a egg in my mothers womb. Which was done out of love. A feeling that No one can explain. This feeling is felt by everyone at one time or other. How this creation of live came about...... no one knows. If anyone of y’all can explain this to me. I would love to know. why did I come to exist out of millions of cells from my dad and thousands of cells from my mother.
> Guess I was just a lucky accident of the creation of life. 1in millions that alone is a fathom to realize. I passed a few a long the way my self. Out of millions of chances. A astronomical amount only made it. can anyone explain this to me.


You were the fastest swimmer!!
Lolol, seriously tho, I agree with you. 
I want to know all I can but I am also fine with saying "I Don't Know" instead of linking the unknowns to a diety.


----------



## kmckinnie (Mar 21, 2021)

Can any one explain why I feel love. Happiness. Sorrow. Pity. Why do I grieve. Why do I feel hate. Why do I feel the need to govern with justice for crimes against humanity !
Maybe then once we as biological units with these emotions can we understand how we came about.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Why can't you disprove Him? I know the old philosophical argument. It's an argument, not an answer.


Its not just philosophical, it’s not just an argument, either. You can’t prove something isn’t there if there’s no evidence of it being there.

Where’s Bigfoot? What I gotta do to prove he doesn’t exist?

Most A/A’s on here are open minded enough that if you can show them evidence of God, they’d follow the evidence.


----------



## kmckinnie (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> You were the fastest swimmer!!
> Lolol, seriously tho, I agree with you.
> I want to know all I can but I am also fine with saying "I Don't Know" instead of linking the unknowns to a diety.


I am fine to with saying I don’t know and most likely will never know. there is one thing I do know. We are here today and it is but a blink of the eye. And there’s proof of that. Billions have done gone and yet no one cane prove how we came about. Or anything else. bigfoot is not a factor. Now life outside ours is another story. 
Or are we truly alone in our vast unexplored universe as we do know. 
So who am I to judge. I just see the evidence as we know it today.  Tomorrow is another chapter.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

kmckinnie said:


> I am fine to with saying I don’t know and most likely will never know. there is one thing I do know. We are here today and it is but a blink of the eye. And there’s proof of that. Billions have done gone and yet no one cane prove how we came about. Or anything else. bigfoot is not a factor. Now life outside ours is another story.
> Or are we truly alone in our vast unexplored universe as we do know.
> So who am I to judge. I just see the evidence as we know it today.  Tomorrow is another chapter.


I remember nothing pre birth, maybe early flashes of memories of ages 2-4 when an old picture triggers something else. I don't feel the need the need to waste what little time I do have worrying about what may or may not be once I cease to be. Eternity is an awfully long time to always have everything you want and it always to be good. The thoughts of such things ease the reality of mortality though.


----------



## kmckinnie (Mar 21, 2021)

Can anyone explain why we have a sence of humor and what gave us complete dominance over this animal kingdom on this planet earth. Luck of the draw. We are not the fastest. The strongest. What what was given to us “by nature” is the most dominant force there is. Our only enemies is our selfs. Our intelligence is superior to none. We gave the ability to think. Reason and advance like no other life on this planet. bigfoot can’t do that. Heck he doesn’t Exist. how did we evolve to this status on this little planet earth. And it is little. we have the ability to destroy this planet. What other life form here comes close. Lions, tigers & bears. Nope. man kind. 
Just a little thought for all in this prove theory. guess all this is just by chance.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

kmckinnie said:


> Can any one explain why I feel love. Happiness. Sorrow. Pity. Why do I grieve. Why do I feel hate. Why do I feel the need to govern with justice for crimes against humanity !
> Maybe then once we as biological units with these emotions can we understand how we came about.


For the same reasons other mammals do. There are examples of such things throughout the species in nature.


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Its not just philosophical, it’s not just an argument, either. You can’t prove something isn’t there if there’s no evidence of it being there.
> 
> Where’s Bigfoot? What I gotta do to prove he doesn’t exist?
> 
> Most A/A’s on here are open minded enough that if you can show them evidence of God, they’d follow the evidence.




An excerpt from Dr. David Reagan

Peter Stoner’s Calculations Regarding Messianic Prophecy
Peter Stoner calculated the probability of just 8 Messianic prophecies being fulfilled in the life of Jesus. As you read through these prophecies, you will see that all estimates were calculated as conservatively as possible.

The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2).
The average population of Bethlehem from the time of Micah to the present (1958) divided by the average population of the earth during the same period = 7,150/2,000,000,000 or 2.8×105.
A messenger will prepare the way for the Messiah (Malachi 3:1).
One man in how many, the world over, has had a forerunner (in this case, John the Baptist) to prepare his way?
Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.
The Messiah will enter Jerusalem as a king riding on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9).
One man in how many, who has entered Jerusalem as a ruler, has entered riding on a donkey?
Estimate: 1 in 100 or 1×102.
The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend and suffer wounds in His hands (Zechariah 13:6).
One man in how many, the world over, has been betrayed by a friend, resulting in wounds in his hands?
Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.
The Messiah will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12).
Of the people who have been betrayed, one in how many has been betrayed for exactly 30 pieces of silver?
Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.
The betrayal money will be used to purchase a potter’s field (Zechariah 11:13).
One man in how many, after receiving a bribe for the betrayal of a friend, has returned the money, had it refused, and then experienced it being used to buy a potter’s field?
Estimate: 1 in 100,000 or 1×105.
The Messiah will remain silent while He is afflicted (Isaiah 53:7).
One man in how many, when he is oppressed and afflicted, though innocent, will make no defense of himself?
Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.
The Messiah will die by having His hands and feet pierced (Psalm 22:16).
One man in how many, since the time of David, has been crucified?
Estimate: 1 in 10,000 or 1×104.
Multiplying all these probabilities together produces a number (rounded off) of 1×1028. Dividing this number by an estimate of the number of people who have lived since the time of these prophecies (88 billion) produces a probability of all 8 prophecies being fulfilled accidently in the life of one person. That probability is 1in 1017 or 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. That’s one in one hundred quadrillion!

Part Two: The Accuracy of Prophecy
The second section of Stoner’s book, is entitled “Prophetic Accuracy.” This is where the book becomes absolutely fascinating. One by one, he takes major Bible prophecies concerning cities and nations and calculates the odds of their being fulfilled. The first is a prophecy in Ezekiel 26 concerning the city of Tyre. Seven prophecies are contained in this chapter which was written in 590 BC:

Nebuchadnezzar shall conquer the city (vs. 7-11).
Other nations will assist Nebuchadnezzar (v. 3).
The city will be made like a bare rock (vs. 4 & 14).
It will become a place for the spreading of fishing nets (vs. 5 & 14).
Its stones and timbers will be thrown into the sea (v. 12).
Other cities will fear greatly at the fall of Tyre (v. 16).
The old city of Tyre will never be rebuilt (v. 14).
Four years after this prophecy was given, Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Tyre. The siege lasted 13 years. When the city finally fell in 573 BC, it was discovered that everything of value had been moved to a nearby island.

Two hundred and forty-one years later Alexander the Great arrived on the scene. Fearing that the fleet of Tyre might be used against his homeland, he decided to take the island where the city had been moved to. He accomplished this goal by building a causeway from the mainland to the island, and he did that by using all the building materials from the ruins of the old city. Neighboring cities were so frightened by Alexander’s conquest that they immediately opened their gates to him. Ever since that time, Tyre has remained in ruins and is a place where fishermen spread their nets.

Thus, every detail of the prophecy was fulfilled exactly as predicted. Stoner calculated the odds of such a prophecy being fulfilled by chance as being 1 in 75,000,000, or 1 in 7.5×107. (The exponent 7 indicates that the decimal is to be moved to the right seven places.)

Stoner proceeds to calculate the probabilities of the prophecies concerning Samaria, Gaza and Ashkelon, Jericho, Palestine, Moab and Ammon, Edom, and Babylon. He also calculates the odds of prophecies being fulfilled that predicted the closing of the Eastern Gate (Ezekiel 44:1-3), the plowing of Mount Zion (Micah 3:12), and the enlargement of Jerusalem according to a prescribed pattern (Jeremiah 31:38-40).

Combining all these prophecies, he concludes that “the probability of these 11 prophecies coming true, if written in human wisdom, is… 1 in 5.76×1059. Needless to say, this is a number beyond the realm of possibility.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

kmckinnie said:


> Can anyone explain why we have a sence of humor and what gave us complete dominance over this animal kingdom on this planet earth. Luck of the draw. We are not the fastest. The strongest. What what was given to us “by nature” is the most dominant force there is. Our only enemies is our selfs. Our intelligence is superior to none. We gave the ability to think. Reason and advance like no other life on this planet. bigfoot can’t do that. Heck he doesn’t Exist. how did we evolve to this status on this little planet earth. And it is little. we have the ability to destroy this planet. What other life form here comes close. Lions, tigers & bears. Nope. man kind.
> Just a little thought for all in this prove theory. guess all this is just by chance.


Our time of rule/dominance is a blip.


----------



## kmckinnie (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> I remember nothing pre birth, maybe early flashes of memories of ages 2-4 when an old picture triggers something else. I don't feel the need the need to waste what little time I do have worrying about what may or may not be once I cease to be. Eternity is an awfully long time to always have everything you want and it always to be good. The thoughts of such things ease the reality of mortality though.


How can u remember prebirth yet just like the lab that fetches it come natural. 
You will cease to exist  and never know this world existed. I knew nothing of this world because I came apart of it with the creation of life from my parents. Once I die this world will continue as if I never excited. my question. What and how was this world created and the whole vast universe. One day this world will die as does everything we know. what happens next. I’ll never know. 
What gave me this intelligence that we have acquired. that’s the big question.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> An excerpt from Dr. David Reagan
> 
> Peter Stoner’s Calculations Regarding Messianic Prophecy
> Peter Stoner calculated the probability of just 8 Messianic prophecies being fulfilled in the life of Jesus. As you read through these prophecies, you will see that all estimates were calculated as conservatively as possible.
> ...


 And yet Jesus, a Jew, Did Not Fulfill Jewish prophesy.

Now How easy would it be 2000 years later to write fictional stories that fulfill prophecy told all those years earlier ?
There was a LOT of time between the OT and NT and a LOT of writings that told different tales.


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

kmckinnie said:


> How can u remember prebirth yet just like the lab that fetches it come natural.
> You will cease to exist  and never know this world existed. I knew nothing of this world because I came apart of it with the creation of life from my parents. Once I die this world will continue as if I never excited. my question. What and how was this world created and the whole vast universe. One day this world will die as does everything we know. what happens next. I’ll never know.
> What gave me this intelligence that we have acquired. that’s the big question.


My point is that I did not remember anything pre birth nor will I be able to experience memories post death.
We are products of the available chemistry set. What happens is what current conditions allow to happen.


----------



## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> And yet Jesus, a Jew, Did Not Fulfill Jewish prophesy.
> 
> Now How easy would it be 2000 years later to write fictional stories that fulfill prophecy told all those years earlier ?
> There was a LOT of time between the OT and NT and a LOT of writings that told different tales.


By your standards, where is your evidence the prophecies were altered?


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> An excerpt from Dr. David Reagan
> 
> Peter Stoner’s Calculations Regarding Messianic Prophecy
> Peter Stoner calculated the probability of just 8 Messianic prophecies being fulfilled in the life of Jesus. As you read through these prophecies, you will see that all estimates were calculated as conservatively as possible.
> ...


But I believe in God. For someone who doesn’t  - how’s this evidence?


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> An excerpt from Dr. David Reagan
> 
> Peter Stoner’s Calculations Regarding Messianic Prophecy
> Peter Stoner calculated the probability of just 8 Messianic prophecies being fulfilled in the life of Jesus. As you read through these prophecies, you will see that all estimates were calculated as conservatively as possible.
> ...


https://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm


----------



## kmckinnie (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> My point is that I did not remember anything pre birth nor will I be able to experience memories post death.
> We are products of the available chemistry set. What happens is what current conditions allow to happen.


That’s all u got. well I’m out for now. y’all carry on and be civil 
Thank


----------



## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> By your standards, where is your evidence the prophecies were altered?


Prophecy wasn't altered, the writings chosen to make the NT were written to fit the OT prophecies. And they still did not fulfill Jewish Prophecy


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

kmckinnie said:


> That’s all u got. well I’m out for now. y’all carry on and be civil
> Thank


I can't tell you what I do not know. No sense for me to fake it and say "So and So did it" because I cannot understand it.


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## kmckinnie (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> I can't tell you what I do not know. No sense for me to fake it and say "So and So did it" because I cannot understand it.


So your saying there’s a lot we don’t understand ?


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

kmckinnie said:


> So your saying there’s a lot we don’t understand ?


Absolutely, no sense jumping to conclusions before we understand it


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## kmckinnie (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Absolutely, no sense jumping to conclusions before we understand it


That made me smile ?


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## kmckinnie (Mar 21, 2021)

Even with our intelligence and power to reason. There are so many things we will never understand.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

kmckinnie said:


> That made me smile ?


Since the Universe formed , Right now,  and up to this very second there is either What Is or What Isn't,  why pretend to not only know what might be and then also pretend to know what it is?


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

kmckinnie said:


> Even with our intelligence and power to reason. There are so many things we will never understand.


Which brings me to another one of my thoughts/points:
Such a being as a God or GOD would be so complex that I could not even begin to understand it. I used to pretend that I did understand plus knew its wishes, likes and what it was thinking because that is what my family did and the people in church did before me. One day I realized that it is all above my pay grade.  I am content with admitting that I do not know and I also am open to the fact if that there is a god who wants me to know it, then being a god and having the knowledge of a god would allow that deity to contact me in a way or ways that I would be sure to understand. I am open to contact. I would honestly tell everyone in here about it if it happened. But until then I am not going to use one set of various writings compiled over thousands of years by mostly anonymous authors who used influences from other cultures then tweaked to suit by 40,000 different denominations to find what version best suits me.


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## bullethead (Mar 21, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> An excerpt from Dr. David Reagan
> 
> Peter Stoner’s Calculations Regarding Messianic Prophecy
> Peter Stoner calculated the probability of just 8 Messianic prophecies being fulfilled in the life of Jesus. As you read through these prophecies, you will see that all estimates were calculated as conservatively as possible.
> ...


https://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2012/08/probability-proves-bible-prophecy-or-not/


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## kmckinnie (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Which brings me to another one of my thoughts/points:
> Such a being as a God or GOD would be so complex that I could not even begin to understand it. I used to pretend that I did understand plus knew its wishes, likes and what it was thinking because that is what my family did and the people in church did before me. One day I realized that it is all above my pay grade.  I am content with admitting that I do not know and I also am open to the fact if that there is a god who wants me to know it, then being a god and having the knowledge of a god would allow that deity to contact me in a way or ways that I would be sure to understand. I am open to contact. I would honestly tell everyone in here about it if it happened. But until then I am not going to use one set of various writings compiled over thousands of years by mostly anonymous authors who used influences from other cultures then tweaked to suit by 40,000 different denominations to find what version beat suits me.


Mankind is a big word. The gods created by man kind. Well there’s plenty. the history of this subject is enormous.


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## Ray357 (Mar 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Prophecy wasn't altered, the writings chosen to make the NT were written to fit the OT prophecies. And they still did not fulfill Jewish Prophecy


The writings chosen. What about the secular writings that confirm the Gospel account?

https://www.djameskennedy.org/radio
Go to the Jul 14 program


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## bullethead (Mar 22, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> The writings chosen. What about the secular writings that confirm the Gospel account?
> 
> https://www.djameskennedy.org/radio
> Go to the Jul 14 program


https://articles.exchristian.net/2002/03/historys-troubling-silence-about-jesus.php?m=1

http://judaismsanswer.com/Josephus.htm


https://www.rationalresponders.com/silence_screams_no_contemporary_historical_accounts_quotjesus#:~:text=It may surprise Christians to learn that there,a concession that Paul never actually met Jesus.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 22, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Its not just philosophical, it’s not just an argument, either. You can’t prove something isn’t there if there’s no evidence of it being there.
> 
> Where’s Bigfoot? What I gotta do to prove he doesn’t exist?
> 
> Most A/A’s on here are open minded enough that if you can show them evidence of God, they’d follow the evidence.


Its very refreshing that you can see both sides of the coin Spot


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## WaltL1 (Mar 22, 2021)

Hey Ray,
About your "Moral Absolutism" -
Note this is NOT an Atheist website.
What I find interesting is it makes it perfectly clear that PEOPLE decide what is morally absolute depending on their beliefs. Its not a standalone thing that exists on its own. It all revolves around what people think and believe. There are even different "levels" of moral absolutes INCLUDING IN CHRISTIANITY.
What Is Moral Absolutism? - WorldAtlas


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## Ray357 (Mar 22, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Its very refreshing that you can see both sides of the coin Spot


Philosophers, until very recently, considered it totally illogical to make a positive assertion of a negative.


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## bullethead (Mar 22, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Philosophers, until very recently, considered it totally illogical to make a positive assertion of a negative.


https://infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/theory.html


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## bullethead (Mar 22, 2021)

It seems as though you Can prove a negative doesn't exist
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/believing-bull/201109/you-can-prove-negative


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 22, 2021)

Newt2 said:


> I'm an Atheist and have been lurking this section for a while now. Because there are 4 other sections where folks can proclaim their faith, I thought this was one to find others that share my belief (or lack there of). After viewing a hundred threads and hundreds of posts, I found that 95% appear to be those trying to convince Atheists, etc., to convert to their religion, aka christianity.
> 
> One thread in particular, "Atheist Church" was quite misleading. To me, these "churches" are trying to do what other religious believers do. Try to influence people to a single individual's belief(s). In this section, I hoped to meet folks here that are Atheists and how it relates to them in the shooting industry.
> 
> Hopefully on here we can keep it real. You have your beliefs and I have mine. I've left or been kicked out of countless forums because of who I am so we'll see.



What an odd introduction.



> I've left or been kicked out of countless forums because of who I am so we'll see.





> I sure hope I don't have to leave this site just as soon as I started because my beliefs contradict what others believe.



It almost sounds like you come here looking to be offended/offensive.  No-one here is gonna toss you out.  People toss themselves out.  I don't participate here anymore, but as long as you keep the correct discussion in the appropriate forum I've never seen an issue.  Personally, as a believer in Christ I've taken more offense from other believers trying to proselytize/advertise in the wrong forums than anything anyone down here in A/A/A ever said to me.  

It just strikes me as odd that you show up touting your knowledge about handguns in an A/A/A forum and advertising you've been ousted from "countless forums because of who I am".  Keep your comments in the appropriate forum, and you won't have an issue, but again, I'm dubious as to whether that's gonna happen.  You strike me as passive-aggressive looking for a fight.  I hope I'm wrong.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 22, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Philosophers, until very recently, considered it totally illogical to make a positive assertion of a negative.


Philosophers philosophize. You can philosophize. I can philosophize. Anybody can philosophize.  Its usefulness is pretty much just getting different viewpoints/opinions. Many of which are completely opposite of each other.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 22, 2021)

So Ray, what did you think about this in the link I presented you?
*



			Graded Absolutism
		
Click to expand...

*


> In Christian ethics, there is a theory of moral absolutism known as graded absolutism. Graded absolutism ranks moral absolutes as either greater or lesser than the other. Moral absolutes are the standards against which the morality of an action can be judged. An example is a moral absolute like ‘do not lie' may be greater or lesser than a moral absolute like ‘do not steal.' Graded absolutism is also known as the greater good view or contextual absolutism.


You presented moral absolutes as coming from God. Im assuming you are referring to the 10 Commandments.
Here we have a Christian ethic that basically takes those 10 Commandments and decides which is "more important" than the other.
Any comment?


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## Newt2 (Mar 22, 2021)

SemperFiDawg said:


> What an odd introduction.


I did an intro previously in the Campfire section.



SemperFiDawg said:


> It just strikes me as odd that you show up touting your knowledge about handguns in an A/A/A forum


Where did I say that in this thread in this section?



SemperFiDawg said:


> advertising you've been ousted from "countless forums because of who I am".


Taking things out of context and inserting words not said doesn't make your argument.



SemperFiDawg said:


> It almost sounds like you come here looking to be offended/offensive.


Almost. I just asked a simple question and now there are 200 posts that strayed from the OP in this appropriate forum.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 22, 2021)

Newt2 said:


> Today's quote:
> 
> “There is something infantile in the presumption that somebody else has a responsibility to give your life meaning and point… The truly adult view, by contrast, is that our life is as meaningful, as full and as wonderful as we choose to make it.”
> ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion



Dawkins.  SMH.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 22, 2021)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Dawkins.  SMH.



We know you love you some Dawkins


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## Spotlite (Mar 22, 2021)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Dawkins.  SMH.





WaltL1 said:


> We know you love you some Dawkins


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## Spotlite (Mar 23, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Yes. If I could prove my belief, we would not be having this conversation and if you could prove yours we would not be having it.


We can all (religious / non religious) agree that we as mankind possess morals - we all know what’s right and wrong by “instinct”. And that can change over time, slavery???

We don’t have to be told that some things are wrong.

Where you’re pushing a chain uphill is claiming the source of that “instinct” is coming from a deity that you can’t prove exist. The debate is concerning your stance that without that deity, there are no morals. That’s a stance you took, they’re asking you to back that up with more than what you believe.

All the hype in between will most likely not get rehashed over and over. That’s why most rebuttals have been concise  with you. Everyone here can quote scripture.


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## Ray357 (Mar 23, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> We can all (religious / non religious) agree that we as mankind possess morals - we all know what’s right and wrong by “instinct”. And that can change over time, slavery???
> 
> We don’t have to be told that some things are wrong.
> 
> ...


I think you are misunderstanding me. Without God, there are no absolute morals. Without absolute morals, what is right is what is right in my own eyes.   The logical conclusion is then that might equals right.


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## Spotlite (Mar 23, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> I think you are misunderstanding me. Without God, there are no absolute morals. Without absolute morals, what is right is what is right in my own eyes.   The logical conclusion is then that might equals right.


No, I understand you. I believe in God. I believe it’s written in our hearts so that we are without excuses.

I just can’t prove that to anyone that doesn’t believe it.

Again - the “source” from where all the right / wrong cones from.....


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2021)

Every believer in a god claims the same thing that their god is responsible for such things. How is one more right than the next?

I remember reading about how to treat slaves and captured women in the Bible. Those are the words of that god that commanded humans as to how to go about it. Why don't his followers adhere to his commands today if he is so absolute and sovereign?
Are man's laws and morals greater?


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## Spotlite (Mar 23, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Every believer in a god claims the same thing that their god is responsible for such things. How is one more right than the next?
> 
> I remember reading about how to treat slaves and captured women in the Bible. Those are the words of that god that commanded humans as to how to go about it. Why don't his followers adhere to his commands today if he is so absolute and sovereign?
> Are man's laws and morals greater?


Back in my younger days I always wished I could get me about 100 of them Concubines  my goodness how morals have changed.


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Back in my younger days I always wished I could get me about 100 of them Concubines


I dont agree with it, but a believer giving god a pass if god had concubines,  slaves etc and treated them awfully because they think god is above his own morals  but when that same god outlines how his followers should do it and then the believers ignore such passages and continue on about absolute anythings....the facts again do not match their claims.


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2021)

Ray is telling us about the non secular writers talking about Jesus, I show him that such things are false and give him examples that refute his and he goes silent.  My guess is he will still continue to use his references without acknowledging the others that refute them. I dont fault anyone who is uninformed until they are informed and carry on as if they are not.


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## Spotlite (Mar 23, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Ray is telling us about the non secular writers talking about Jesus, I show him that such things are false and give him examples that refute his and he goes silent.  My guess is he will still continue to use his references without acknowledging the others that refute them. I dont fault anyone who is uninformed until they are informed and carry on as if they are not.


I just wished he’d understand the concept from your viewpoint - why his God and how does he know? Why not Allah, Indian Joe’s Great Spirit, etc.? I think it’ll help him understand more of why you ask the questions that you do.

Many Christians get offended when asked because they fail to realize that when a person doesn’t acknowledge any God / gods because of the lack of evidence, it’s like trying to prove to Ray it was Bigfoot that ate his cow when there’s never been a dead Bigfoot found, or a picture of him out there, and “you gotta believe me because there’s a show called Finding Bigfoot and they said......”


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> I just wished he’d understand the concept from your viewpoint - why his God and how does he know? Why not Allah, Indian Joe’s Great Spirit, etc.? I think it’ll help him understand more of why you ask the questions that you do.
> 
> Many Christians get offended when asked because they fail to realize that when a person doesn’t acknowledge any God / gods because of the lack of evidence, it’s like trying to prove to Ray it was Bigfoot that ate his cow when there’s never been a dead Bigfoot found, or a picture of him out there, and “you gotta believe me because there’s a show called Finding Bigfoot and they said......”


That is a great description and analogy.
Lots of bigfoot "experts"  who go around saying this is TYPICAL bigfoot behavior,  that is TYPICAL bigfoot calls, these are TYPICAL bigfoot markings...and when pressed none of them have seen  a live bigfoot, a dead bigfoot, studied a single or tribe of bigfoots, they have never videoed a bigfoot doing any of the things that are TYPICAL and they have literally zero evidence that an actual bigfoot exists, yet....they continue on with same lame excuses that a person who says bigfoot doesn't exist Can't Prove Bigfoot Doesn't Exist therefore it must, or might or used to exist...
When a person tells someone else they cannot prove one thing doesnt exist,  therefore it exits they open a whole can of worms which consists of everything and anything someone wants to claim exists. And usually that initial believer in one god will scoff at the notion of another god saying it doesn't exist, or isn't as powerful.
It is dishonest to not follow their own rules.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 23, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> I think you are misunderstanding me. Without God, there are no absolute morals. Without absolute morals, what is right is what is right in my own eyes.   The logical conclusion is then that might equals right.


Not only is "might equals right" the logical conclusion, its also historically accurate.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 23, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> I just wished he’d understand the concept from your viewpoint - why his God and how does he know? Why not Allah, Indian Joe’s Great Spirit, etc.? I think it’ll help him understand more of why you ask the questions that you do.
> 
> Many Christians get offended when asked because they fail to realize that when a person doesn’t acknowledge any God / gods because of the lack of evidence, it’s like trying to prove to Ray it was Bigfoot that ate his cow when there’s never been a dead Bigfoot found, or a picture of him out there, and “you gotta believe me because there’s a show called Finding Bigfoot and they said......”





> I just wished he’d understand the concept from your viewpoint - why his God and how does he know? Why not Allah, Indian Joe’s Great Spirit, etc.? I think it’ll help him understand more of why you ask the questions that you do.


What I dont get is that every Christian I ever met was more than capable of understanding it. Most, not all, just refuse to.
Its as though it would be against their beliefs.
My opinion is that those Christians who are willing to examine both sides of the coin with an open mind, are probably the most secure in their beliefs.


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## Ray357 (Mar 23, 2021)

bullethead said:


> https://infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/theory.html


Didn't deal with what I said.


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## Spotlite (Mar 23, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> What " dont get is that every Christian I ever met was more than capable of understanding it. Most, not all, just refuse to.
> Its as though it would be against their beliefs.
> My opinion is that those Christians who are willing to examine both sides of the coin with an open mind, are probably the most secure in their beliefs.


I’d say you’re very accurate with that statement.


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## bullethead (Mar 23, 2021)

Ray357 said:


> Didn't deal with what I said.


It addresses what we talked about in this thread at one point and gives you another perspective and counterpoint to consider.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 23, 2021)

[QUOTE="Newt2, post: 12765623, member: 13894]



> SemperFiDawg said:
> It just strikes me as odd that you show up touting your knowledge about handguns in an A/A/A forum




Where did I say that in this thread in this section?
[/QUOTE]


Your very second post.



> I sure hope I don't have to leave this site just as soon as I started because my beliefs contradict what others believe. I have over 40 years of handgun hunting experience where I can make contributions to this site based on experience and extensive ballistic testing



[QUOTE="Newt2, post: 12765623, member: 13894]Taking things out of context and inserting words not said doesn't make your argument.[/QUOTE]

You would be absolutely correct Sir, but I don't have an argument, just an impression, and I hope I'm mistaken.  Enjoy the forum.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 23, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> We know you love you some Dawkins



I think most everyone would/could take Dawkins more serious if he could get out of his own way and drop denigration from his repertoire.  IMHO the minute you chose to denigrate someone or their belief, it's a pretty good sign you a) are insecure in your position, b) your position is rationally untenable, or c) both.  There's good skeptics out there that don't have to stoop to that level to state their position, unfortunately Dawkins isn't one of them.  His emotional attachment to the subject and his ego, render him rationally impotent.  He only survives on his showmanship.  Just my opinion.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 24, 2021)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I think most everyone would/could take Dawkins more serious if he could get out of his own way and drop denigration from his repertoire.  IMHO the minute you chose to denigrate someone or their belief, it's a pretty good sign you a) are insecure in your position, b) your position is rationally untenable, or c) both.  There's good skeptics out there that don't have to stoop to that level to state their position, unfortunately Dawkins isn't one of them.  His emotional attachment to the subject and his ego, render him rationally impotent.  He only survives on his showmanship.  Just my opinion.


I'll be honest, I havent listened to him enough to formulate an opinion about him. Just a few minutes here and there when somebody has posted it here on this forum. I know that might be some sort of A/A "sin" because he was certainly held in high regard by most A/As. To me, these famous folks are just another guy/gal with an opinion regardless of which side they are on and I would just as soon get opinions from "regular folks" like myself.
I picked the below interview with him at random and Im going to see if I can force myself to watch the whole thing.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 24, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> I'll be honest, I havent listened to him enough to formulate an opinion about him. Just a few minutes here and there when somebody has posted it here on this forum. I know that might be some sort of A/A "sin" because he was certainly held in high regard by most A/As. To me, these famous folks are just another guy/gal with an opinion regardless of which side they are on and I would just as soon get opinions from "regular folks" like myself.
> I picked the below interview with him at random and Im going to see if I can force myself to watch the whole thing.





> To me, these famous folks are just another guy/gal with an opinion regardless of which side they are on and I would just as soon get opinions from "regular folks" like myself.



Well said.


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