# 308 Nato Question



## Lowjack (Nov 2, 2009)

I came accross one of this 308  7.62 X 51 Nato Rifles stock looks like new The bore and all parts it almost looks un-used.
The question is can I shoot .308 American Ammo, like Winchester silver tips or Remington core lock etc ?

And why it says 308 Nato and not .380 ?


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## Twenty five ought six (Nov 3, 2009)

I came accross one of this 308 7.62 X 51 Nato Rifles stock looks like new The bore and all parts it almost looks un-used.
The question is can I shoot .308 American Ammo, like Winchester silver tips or Remington core lock etc ?

Yes

And why it says 308 Nato and not .380 ? 

Probably, and I'm going out on a limb here, because they are two different calibers?


Seriously, ".308" is the diameter in inches of most common .30 caliber bullets -- from the .30-30 to .300 Win Mag.  ".380"  is the common English measurement designation for 9mm pistol bullets-- the most common being the .380 pistol round ( which also has several metric names, 9mm short, 9mmKurz, ).  It's actually about .355 inches in diameter.  Bottom line is that ".308" and ".380" refer to two greatly different bullet sizes.


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## gtparts (Nov 3, 2009)

ought six,

I think the".380" was a typo. As I read it, LJ is asking why the "NATO" designation is included. 

Maybe the point is : Are the two different, yet similar enough to interchange ammo? Or are they identical rounds?


Or, I could be completely wrong and should have stayed off the keyboard.


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## Twenty five ought six (Nov 3, 2009)

gtparts said:


> ought six,
> 
> I think the".380" was a typo. As I read it, LJ is asking why the "NATO" designation is included.
> 
> ...


And you may well have a point.

In that case, the ".308 _NATO_" is just a shorthand way of referring to the 7.62 x 51 mm round.  There are several other .308 rounds, and designating it "NATO"  tells you which one your gun is chambered for.  Same way marking a gun "7mm Mauser" tells you that it is a 7 x 57 mm round, and not one of the other half dozen or so 7mm rounds.  

By and large  the .308 Winchester, and 7.62 X 51 mm round (aka .308 NATO) are the same round. I've never heard of a gun that would not interchange the rounds.   Which is not the case for the .223 and military equivalent 5.56 X 45 rounds.

In fact, reloaders commonly use the 7.62 military brass for reloading the .308 sport rounds.


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## Lowjack (Nov 3, 2009)

gtparts said:


> ought six,
> 
> I think the".380" was a typo. As I read it, LJ is asking why the "NATO" designation is included.
> 
> ...



Yes sorry about that, It says 308 on it and 7.62 X 51 Not 380 I reversed the numbers by mistake.

So I wonder if 308 means .308 ? and if this gun is safe to shoot with the new hot rounds ?


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## Twenty five ought six (Nov 3, 2009)

Yes sorry about that, It says 308 on it and 7.62 X 51 Not 380 I reversed the numbers by mistake.

So I wonder if 308 means .308 ? yesand if this gun is safe to shoot with the new hot rounds ? probably.  You haven't told us what rifle it is, but typically military rounds are hotter than hunting rounds, so unless there was a red flag, I'd feel comfortable shooting any commercially available round in it.


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## Lowjack (Nov 3, 2009)

It is a 1916 Spanish Short barrel Mauser.21" Barrell.


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## Lowjack (Nov 3, 2009)

This is it.


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## stev (Nov 3, 2009)

308 nato is much less pressure then the 308 standard .be carefull.


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## Lowjack (Nov 3, 2009)

stev said:


> 308 nato is much less pressure then the 308 standard .be carefull.




Yes I read small ring Mausers cannot use hot rounds, But I don't know if this is what they call small ring mauser.
I have a sporterized 98 Argentinian Mauser and seems to shoot the federal premium ballistic tips with no problems.


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## roberto mervici (Nov 4, 2009)

Hi Lowjack, I have the same rifle, 1916 spanish mauser, born as 7x57 and during 1960 converted by Oviedo arsenal to 7.62 Nato for the Guardia Civil ( crest with crosses sword and fasches ). Even though the 7.62 Nato cartridge has same specs as the .308 win, this later one operate at about 2000 cup high pressure. Frankly if 2000 extra cup of pressure above the operating pressure will blow up one action all peoples, military included have a major azard problem!! 
Nowhere was reported that one of this rifle blow up, an many test have  been performed including the blow up one... yes they did blow up above 80000 cup!!!
I never fire commercial ammo with mine, only because I believe I make better one, I got the best performance a little below the max load recommended for .308 by the latest Hornady book . (open sight groups from 1 to 2" at 100 yrd) and I would not have any problem using .308 commercial ammo if needed.
_______
roberto


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## Twenty five ought six (Nov 4, 2009)

roberto mervici said:


> Hi Lowjack, I have the same rifle, 1916 spanish mauser, born as 7x57 and during 1960 converted by Oviedo arsenal to 7.62 Nato for the Guardia Civil ( crest with crosses sword and fasches ). Even though the 7.62 Nato cartridge has same specs as the .308 win, this later one operate at about 2000 cup high pressure. Frankly if 2000 extra cup of pressure above the operating pressure will blow up one action all peoples, military included have a major azard problem!!
> Nowhere was reported that one of this rifle blow up, an many test have  been performed including the blow up one... yes they did blow up above 80000 cup!!!
> I never fire commercial ammo with mine, only because I believe I make better one, I got the best performance a little below the max load recommended for .308 by the latest Hornady book . (open sight groups from 1 to 2" at 100 yrd) and I would not have any problem using .308 commercial ammo if needed.
> _______
> roberto



There seems to be a real division over this particular rifle.  Roberto pretty well sums it up.  If you do a search, there are all sorts of dire predictions about it blowing up with .308 ammo, but the few people who actually test it haven't found any unusual problems. 

I suppose we all have different tolerances for risk, but if after careful inspection, there doesn't appear to be any problems, I wouldn't have a problem shooting commercial .308 in it.


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## roberto mervici (Nov 4, 2009)

One last comment, head space must be with in the specs, military chamber are more tollerant and more generous in that field than the commercial manufacturer... but if you are a reloder you have a way to taylor the cartridge ( brass ) to properly fit the chamber of your particular rifle and eliminate the head space problem if present by neck sizing or by adjusting your F.L. die not to touch the shoulder of the brass and at the same time your brass will last longer.
________
roberto


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## Lowjack (Nov 4, 2009)

roberto mervici said:


> One last comment, head space must be with in the specs, military chamber are more tollerant and more generous in that field than the commercial manufacturer... but if you are a reloder you have a way to taylor the cartridge ( brass ) to properly fit the chamber of your particular rifle and eliminate the head space problem if present by neck sizing or by adjusting your F.L. die not to touch the shoulder of the brass and at the same time your brass will last longer.
> ________
> roberto



Grazie Roberto, What would be a good load specs for this ?, I have a person that makes me loads, for my weatherby, mainly I'm concerned in being able to use the Nosler partition Bullets with those I think even lower loads would be good ??.


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## roberto mervici (Nov 4, 2009)

Hello Lowjack, I only use my spanish mauser as paper punch at the club to keep busy wile the other rifles cool off... this is the only non scoped rifle among the one that I own... my eye sight is getting poor and open sight  is getting more difficult to focus.
My mauser like 130 grain tip but I must confess this is the only grain I ever use on my .308(I use Hornady and or Speer since cheapper than Nosler for target use) over 46.0 grain of IMR 4895, neck size WW brass, WLR primer ( prefer CCI but have difficulty fine them so I change to Win. since plenty available) , cartridge O.A.L. 2.620". 
This is about 2750 fps load. However if I was planning to hunt with it I would favor a new load with 150 grain tip.
In all different caliber rifle that I own I only use one bullet weight and once satisfied never change... if I need bigger or smaller tip I pick up the rifle for the desired tip, that way I am much more familiar with the gun and no need to continuosly adjust scope and keep on testing.
________
roberto


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## Lowjack (Nov 4, 2009)

FYI , I went to the Outdoor range today and shot some 7.62 Mauser and then I shot some remington .308 all performed exactly alike, actually the Remington seemed to group better, Then I shot some Hornady 308 with Bonded tips and beautifull grouping the gun performed very well.
Thought you all like to know.
Thank you all.


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## SmokyMtnSmoke (Nov 5, 2009)

I have the same rifle as well...

















I've had it for 23 years now, I've shot numerous .308 Win factory loads it it and it is a very good performer even though she looks like crap. i wish I could find a decent sporter stock for her.


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## SmokyMtnSmoke (Nov 5, 2009)

LowJack, I pulled this from one of my old post...

Having had this gun 20+ years I've read prolly 90+% of all the comments about whether it is safe to shoot or not with .308Win loads. This article here covers it pretty well, http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...tion/index.asp

I've shot many factory loads as well as hand loads, taking care to monitor the cases and have never seen any issues. Thanks for pointing that out as some may not be aware that it COULD be an issue although I've never read of any actually occurring. If you know of any please point them out to me.

Now I guess some back ground would help. I already have a Savage/Stevens .308 that I hunt with. I've been wanting a .243 as a varmint rifle and thought this might make a good donor action since the bolt can still be used, a barrel, Timminey trigger and new stock can be found fairly inexpensively. I'm not apposed to keeping it as it is with a new trigger and stock and maybe add a scout scope or grind down the receiver hump and drill/ tap for normal scope mounts.

These Mausers can still be found on the gun listing sights for about $200-$300 depending on condition of course. If I sold this one what price point or trade value would you put on it?

---------------------

Just a follow up for all of you who have read, like me, that these rifles having questionable strength in handling full loads. Here's what I feel is the final word on the issue...

http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/ggps/5637/

"Spanish “Guardia Civil” Mauser M1916 (.308 Win)
May 29, 2003
9:00 PM CST

This GGP is dedicated to Rick Lucas, with my apologies.

Shortly after WWII, the arms factory at Oviedo converted a number of the elderly 1916 Mausers from 7x57mm to .308 Win, for use by the Spanish Civil Guard, and fine-looking rifles they are too:

image

I read somewhere that these rifles were to be treated with circumspection, because the metal of the breech and receiver might not have been able to handle the added pressure of the more-powerful .308 Win cartridge, and I’ve mentioned that little snippet on a couple of occasions on this site.

Well, apparently I wasn’t the only one who thought this, because a bunch of Guardia Mausers were sent to H.P. White, a testing company, and tested to destruction. The SAAMI maximum of 55,000 psi (lbs/sq.in.) for the .308 Win was exceeded—and the rifles were finally destroyed at 98,000 psi!

In other words, I was talking total nonsense, and these rifles are perfectly capable of handling the .308 Win cartridge. My sincerest apologies to all, and to the Guardia Civil Mausers too.

The M1916 is based on the M1893, with a shorter barrel (21") than the older model. Possibly because of the rumors of their weakness, they are selling way below what they are really worth. The typical price is around $130 - $150, which is a steal. So if you see one and need a rifle in the wonderful .308 Win caliber, grab it.

(And everyone should have at least one .308 rifle—it’s possibly the greatest all-round cartridge ever made, and is certainly one of the most accurate cartridges ever made. And, as I’ve said before, everyone should own at least one Mauser, so with the Guardia Civil model, you get a twofer.)"

I think I'll just keep her as is, get a better stock , a Timminey trigger and a scout scope and put her back in the safe.


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## mattellis2 (Nov 5, 2009)

Twenty five ought six said:


> I came accross one of this 308 7.62 X 51 Nato Rifles stock looks like new The bore and all parts it almost looks un-used.
> The question is can I shoot .308 American Ammo, like Winchester silver tips or Remington core lock etc ?
> 
> Yes
> ...



not true.  9mm=0.355-0.356"

38 special = 0.357"


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## gtparts (Nov 5, 2009)

mattellis2 said:


> not true.  9mm=0.355-0.356"
> 
> 38 special = 0.357"



Not to pick nits, but you seem to be the only one in this thread to mention ".38 special".   

25-06, nor anyone else has brought up anything remotely related, except general info re. the .380, 9mm short, 9mmKurz and in doing so, used the word "about" to indicate the approx. dimension of that series of bullets. Please explain what is "not true" in ought six's post?

The .38 special is not considered to be related to the family of rounds used as an example in this thread.

Just curious. This is not an attempt to start an argument.


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## acmech (Nov 6, 2009)

Twenty five ought six said:


> Yes sorry about that, It says 308 on it and 7.62 X 51 Not 380 I reversed the numbers by mistake.
> 
> So I wonder if 308 means .308 ? yesand if this gun is safe to shoot with the new hot rounds ? probably.  You haven't told us what rifle it is, but typically military rounds are hotter than hunting rounds, so unless there was a red flag, I'd feel comfortable shooting any commercially available round in it.



Actually your incorrect on military7.62x51 being hotter than .308 hunting ammo.  The average .308 win. hunting ammo will be around 62,000psi SAAMI and the average Mil. 7.62x51 will be around 58,000 psi.  There are lots of references to this if you google it.


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## Lowjack (Nov 6, 2009)

SmokyMtnSmoke said:


> LowJack, I pulled this from one of my old post...
> 
> Having had this gun 20+ years I've read prolly 90+% of all the comments about whether it is safe to shoot or not with .308Win loads. This article here covers it pretty well, http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...tion/index.asp
> 
> ...



Psssssst Don't spread the word around I got mine for $150 and it will be my 3rd back up and lender rifle at the ranch, when we have a guest.
I'm having a sporting Stock made for it.
Also I hope to use it for wild hogs.


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## mattellis2 (Nov 6, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Not to pick nits, but you seem to be the only one in this thread to mention ".38 special".
> 
> 25-06, nor anyone else has brought up anything remotely related, except general info re. the .380, 9mm short, 9mmKurz and in doing so, used the word "about" to indicate the approx. dimension of that series of bullets. Please explain what is "not true" in ought six's post?
> 
> ...




sorry, i was skimming 25-06's post, and missed the part at the end where he said .380/9mm = 0.355".  i apologize, 'cause i flat missed it.

i mentioned the 38 special, just to show that there are others out there that have names not related to the actual bore diameter through which they're pushed.

-matt


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## Lowjack (Nov 6, 2009)

SmokyMtnSmoke said:


> I have the same rifle as well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Look at this one, I'm going to get one

http://cgi.ebay.com/RAM-LINE-MAUSER...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3356f111da


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## ironhead7544 (Nov 7, 2009)

If the rifle is marked 308 and 7.62 Nato then both rounds are OK in it.  Ive noticed the 7.62 Nato is around 100 fps less velocity than the same weight factory civilian 308 Win.  ammo.  For reloading, the mil brass is thicker and its recommended to drop the max loads by 5%.  Great rifle.  Wish I had one.


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## Twenty five ought six (Nov 8, 2009)

> Actually your incorrect on military7.62x51 being hotter than .308 hunting ammo. The average .308 win. hunting ammo will be around 62,000psi SAAMI and the average Mil. 7.62x51 will be around 58,000 psi. There are lots of references to this if you google it.


 

The SAAMI "average MAXIMUM" .308 is 62,000 psi.

The 7.62 x 51 NATO round maximum is determined by military specifications, and computed by C.I.P. in metric units.  The max. psi translates to 60,000 PSI.  

The difference (approx. 3%) is not significant.

Note that the SAMMI specification is a MAXIMUM load.

Military rounds are always loaded to the maximum (unless they are some special purpose round) to insure the operation of automatic weapons, and because the military doesn't have to worry about people shooting rounds in 100 rifles, and lawyers suing them because people do.

Commercial .308 rounds are seldom if ever loaded to  maximum pressures, and but are loaded  in the the 54-56,000 PSI range.



> There are lots of references to this if you google it.



Yes, there are .


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## AmericanBorn57 (Nov 8, 2009)

If you run across some "used" rounds, remember the "51" in the name is the lenght of the cartridge. If someone has reloaded more than once, they can get "necky" and be longer than the 51mm intended, so they may not feed properly.  I guess all the extra numbers add to the romance of cartridges - meaning different things for different bullets.


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## drine (Dec 15, 2009)

Original poster:  you "should be OK with .308 in your rifle.  
Others:  7.62X51 and .308 differences are different enough when shooting them in NATO battle rifles.  The shoulders are set back and you stretch the case using .308 in some rifles.  Worst case is the roller-locked rifles, ie CETME and others.  You'll stretch the case and rip the head off at some point using .308.  You CAN get away with interchanging them in some cases but to say they are the same or "sorta close" is incorrect and dangerous in some cases.  PLEASE READ THE INFO IN THE LINK PROVIDED.  IT WILL SHOW THE DIFFERENCE IN BLACK AND WHITE.  Again, with your bolt gun, you should be OK with either round.  Watch the cases for pressure signs of course.
http://www.303british.com/id36.html


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## tv_racin_fan (Dec 15, 2009)

Wait so a guy who had some knowledge of reloading had an issue with reloading ammo shot out of a semi auto that he hadn't full length resized.....


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