# Allegory in NT scripture, what-why is it?



## gordon 2 (Dec 1, 2015)

Is there a lesson in Mark chapter 4 when Jesus explains how a parable is set up and that only those who can "hear" " or "have been given the mystery of the Kingdom", can know the meaning?

The parable is an allegory, that is ( a representation of an abstract or spiritual meaning through concrete or material forms; figurative treatment of one subject under the guise of another.)

I have noticed ( or have I?) that some groups have difficulty with allegory in scripture. Having listened to the critiques of Jews and Muslims regards the ministry of Jesus and the ways the gospels are put together some seem to have real issue with  NT scripture which represents itself as dealing with serious spiritual matters regards life and death from God's perspective in allegorical form. They have issue with this form.

Has someone encountered this observation before, or is it just me? Ideas?

A simple example ( of what I'm talking about) might be that some Jews and Muslims who are interested in Christianity cannot or do not understand Paul's mystical reasoning according to my understanding or the way Christians understand it and they therefore honestly have objections about the way we know God.



Ideas?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 2, 2015)

The Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch[edit]
Chapters 1–5: God reveals to Baruch the imminent destruction of Jerusalem ( 70 ad)*, and asks him leave the city along with all other pious persons. Baruch cannot understand how the name of Israel can be remembered and the promises made to Moses can come true if the Temple is in ruins. God explains that such earthly building is not the one he showed to Adam before the Fall and to Moses on Mount Sinai and assures Baruch that Israel's woes will not be permanent. Then Baruch, Jeremiah, and all other pious ones go to the Kidron Valley, where they sorrow and fast.

*My insert.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 2, 2015)

The Apostles themselves had problems understanding the parables, they questioned Jesus and many times begged for explanation. Sometimes understanding would come over them and they were amazed at His ability to teach.

The prophecies of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc went thousands of years without understanding until the Apostles received the Holy Spirit which gave them understanding. The Holy Spirit revealed that which had been hidden in plain sight.

 Perhaps some of it has to do with their teaching? Presuppositions are very hard to overcome...or can be.

 What's your thoughts Gordon?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 2, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> The Apostles themselves had problems understanding the parables, they questioned Jesus and many times begged for explanation. Sometimes understanding would come over them and they were amazed at His ability to teach.
> 
> The prophecies of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc went thousands of years without understanding until the Apostles received the Holy Spirit which gave them understanding. The Holy Spirit revealed that which had been hidden in plain sight.
> 
> ...



Right now my thoughts are that Christian mysticism ( Paul's for example) is based on allegorical interpretation of events important to the new spirituality. The Christian paradigm is based on allegorical understanding of things heavenly, scripture and events, which is "the unique" way the Holy Spirit provides Christians. 


But is this fact? Can someone add to or take away from what seem evident to me?  Do Jews and Muslim understand scripture from an allegorical reading of scripture for example? I have met some who do have a great distaste for this way of proceeding to the point of saying it is not from God. Yet it seems to be the way Jesus thought concerning the Good News of the kingdom.

Thoughts?

Also take the example of "NO! graven images!" in the old testament. Yet the Christian world is full of images concerning God and representing God-- from Icons in Orthodox Christianity to images in our Bibles, movies, Utube, the cross etc... I would suggest that all Christians know without exception that the images are not God, but when I read on events in the Old Testament, it is not always evident that people could tell the difference. Or in other words*** allegorical reasoning was not always possible for non Christians concerning the things and oracles of God for some reason. Is this observation correct? Do hardhearted people have a sight and hearing deficit regards spirituality? Do some traditions just don't go there?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 2, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> The Apostles themselves had problems understanding the parables, they questioned Jesus and many times begged for explanation. Sometimes understanding would come over them and they were amazed at His ability to teach.
> 
> The prophecies of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc went thousands of years without understanding until the Apostles received the Holy Spirit which gave them understanding. The Holy Spirit revealed that which had been hidden in plain sight.
> 
> ...



I think that Jesus most likely was surprised that the disciples close to him did not understand the breath of stride of the Kingdom.  It is still  difficult to grasp by many wise Christians today. The detailed parable of the sower was about belief taking root and not taking root. Rooted it was about the kingdom. It is hard to understand now, yet imagine being in their shoes (sandles-leggings), of their cultural and spiritual tradition, and at the very onset and the kingdom and its citizens not at all in evidence.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 2, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> I think that Jesus most likely was surprised that the disciples close to him did not understand the breath of stride of the Kingdom.  It is still  difficult to grasp by many wise Christians today. The detailed parable of the sower was about belief taking root and not taking root. Rooted it was about the kingdom. It is hard to understand now, yet imagine being in their shoes (sandles-leggings), of their cultural and spiritual tradition, and at the very onset and the kingdom and its citizens not at all in evidence.




Wouldn't you think they should have a better understanding, being of the Jewish culture?

I believe we may have many bad traditions taught to us today because we have a script that comes from Jewish culture, yet a church tradion from the Hellenistic period.

 I try to look at scripture and understand it as much as possible as a first century Hebrew would. 

As for mysticism... I don't know, I've been back and forth on this. I do get those Hallelujah!!!!! Moments sometimes when scripture all of a sudden makes sense, but I wonder, is that the HS showing me, or is that me feeling a little closer to God?


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 3, 2015)

There are many such verses in our bible, most are not religion specific, meaning that it may indicate a revealing within Christianity, meaning some may have been given a knowledge that others have not. I point this out to spur thought and maybe discussion about those who were originally called Knostic. The word coming from "Know". Originally it was a witch hunt, the flushing out of these whom quietly sat in church content that God had revealed to them knowledge, whether maturity of a different stage as their piers or something else, we don't know. It was said that they were hard to eradicate because they blended in, otherwise peaceful church goers. Later since what they believed was not taught, every form of heresy was acredited to them. Point is, our bible speaks of those "in the know"


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## gordon 2 (Dec 4, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> There are many such verses in our bible, most are not religion specific, meaning that it may indicate a revealing within Christianity, meaning some may have been given a knowledge that others have not. I point this out to spur thought and maybe discussion about those who were originally called Knostic. The word coming from "Know". Originally it was a witch hunt, the flushing out of these whom quietly sat in church content that God had revealed to them knowledge, whether maturity of a different stage as their piers or something else, we don't know. It was said that they were hard to eradicate because they blended in, otherwise peaceful church goers. Later since what they believed was not taught, every form of heresy was acredited to them. Point is, our bible speaks of those "in the know"



For me, although I have only looked at this from first impressions, the "knowing" perhaps was about the knowledge and experience of being and maintaining a state of grace. Knowing was to operate from the platform of the kingdom and striving for spiritual perfection as Christ the example and teacher...

If I recall correctly Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit according to Mark and this filling with the Holy Spirit seems to make for allegorical reasoning that is relevant to the new believers (Christians). Filled they were focused on the heavenly, on God and service. Allegory seems to be "the" language of the kingdom. This filling and way of being and way of reasoning, teaching etc... is often confused as being Knostic, or special, secret knowledge,  in concept perhaps. But it is in the Gospels and not secret or special to believers.


 So this is what I find. Allegorical reasoning and understanding is due to an understanding or the reality of the kingdom ( at hand, in you). It ( allegory) is used to talk about the new kingdom of a now redeemed people-- and by redeemed I mean a people now intimate (from the heart now are His laws) with God.

The problem with Knostics is perhaps that they run away with revelation from what is reasonable to the disciples who were witness to Christ's ministry. They knew Jesus and what he thought first hand.

I think a good example of the divide between Knostic revelation ( which supposed all kinds of things from revelation) and the knowledge that the first Christians had received is best identified in The Apocryphon of James which I don't take as being Knostic, but just the opposite. I appreciate it because of the witness in it, which I hold as true from  my experience and not from what was told or thought to me.

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/jam.html

James writes that Jesus said to him and Peter that "Hence, become full of the Spirit, but be in want of reason, for reason ( belongs to) the soul; in turn, it is ( of the nature of ) the soul."

Or in other words ( my other words  )
 be full of the Spirit, be drunk with the Spirit, but be careful when you are drunk and entertaining revelation. It is better at such time to apply reason to revelation and  therefore avoid all kinds of false notions and time wasted.

 And perhaps allegorical reasoning is a way to do this. It's almost as if reason, in order to be relevant, must have boots on the ground even when to the heavenly. So as is a seed that takes root or not in the soil, so it is with the cross in a person.

Maybe, maybe not.


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