# Jesus's last words from the cross



## 1gr8bldr (Dec 27, 2013)

I'm not sure where I stand on this one. Jesus's last words from the cross, Did he die or give up his spirit long before the typical cause of death from being hung on a cross... which is suffication.... or did he receive some sort of power over physical limintations of the body, power to say those last words... or did the HS reveal not what Jesus actually said, but rather what he was thinking in his mind. Similiar to Steven as he looked unto heaven [because we know the stoning did not stop in order that Steven might moderate what was going on]... or that since we have conflicting accounts of what Jesus last words are, we simply don't know. For those who don't know, hanging on the cross caused your body structure to sag which blocked your air. They died of suffication. A normal person would have no ability to say anything during the last hour, much less right before dying. This is why they broke the legs of people hung on a cross so that they could not lift up to gain air. So... what is your opinion? I think I lean toward him dying long before the suffucation process, as verified by them not breaking his bones. This thought now asking what it means to "give up his spirit".


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## hobbs27 (Dec 27, 2013)

I believe all the Gospel accounts are accurate , however I believe John being nearest to the cross would have heard the last quiet words better.

 Giving up the ghost just meant the flesh had expired, and I believe He did this once He took on all our sins.His flesh expired early to prevent the breaking of bones, which was prophecy.


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## ambush80 (Dec 27, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> I'm not sure where I stand on this one. Jesus's last words from the cross, Did he die or give up his spirit long before the typical cause of death from being hung on a cross... which is suffication.... or did he receive some sort of power over physical limintations of the body, power to say those last words... or did the HS reveal not what Jesus actually said, but rather what he was thinking in his mind. Similiar to Steven as he looked unto heaven [because we know the stoning did not stop in order that Steven might moderate what was going on]... or that since we have conflicting accounts of what Jesus last words are, we simply don't know. For those who don't know, hanging on the cross caused your body structure to sag which blocked your air. They died of suffication. A normal person would have no ability to say anything during the last hour, much less right before dying. This is why they broke the legs of people hung on a cross so that they could not lift up to gain air. So... what is your opinion? I think I lean toward him dying long before the suffucation process, as verified by them not breaking his bones. This thought now asking what it means to "give up his spirit".



Why would that be so strange for someone who could walk on water ?


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 27, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Why would that be so strange for someone who could walk on water ?


LOL, you have a good point.


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## bullethead (Dec 27, 2013)

I always wondered why it took Jesus about 6hrs to die when most victims of crucifixions normally took about 24 hours and sometimes days.
Many times to hasten death the soldiers would break a persons legs so the person could not hold themselves up in order to breathe easier. There is no mention of broken legs happening to Jesus.
At 6 hours he may have been able to speak as he should not have been near suffocation, unless he was physically unable to hold up his own weight with his legs after the first hour or two.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 28, 2013)

As to what Jesus was saying..   http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-Chapter-22/

Why did Jesus expire in 6 hours vs 24..to prevent the breaking of bones to fulfill prophesy Psalm 34:20. Besides his work on the cross was done. He had more things to do.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 28, 2013)

What does it mean to "give up the ghost"? Is it not to die physically? The body gives up the ghost because the body is no longer vital and cannot hold the soul, but rather it is now lair of the agents for decomposition.  

When Jesus died on the cross... he died physically and gave up the ghost... 

In the resurection the ghost took up a new body, one with visible mortal wounds--yet vital.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> As to what Jesus was saying..   http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-Chapter-22/
> 
> Why did Jesus expire in 6 hours vs 24..to prevent the breaking of bones to fulfill prophesy Psalm 34:20. Besides his work on the cross was done. He had more things to do.



According to Roman practices the crucified do not get to call the shots on what happens.
The timeline of death does not make sense.
The timeline of death and burial does not go along with Jewish tradition.
The dead were usually left for the birds and animals to prey on.
On most accounts the story of Jesus' crucifixion went against the norm for other crucifixions.
I don't know if it is because the authors did not witness it to get the proper details or if it is because what was witnessed was embellished to get the desired story.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> On most accounts the story of Jesus' crucifixion went against the norm for other crucifixions.


Post of the year!


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Post of the year!



Only made possible by the most deliberate out of context cut/paste of the year.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> I'm not sure where I stand on this one. Jesus's last words from the cross, Did he die or give up his spirit long before the typical cause of death from being hung on a cross... which is suffication.... or did he receive some sort of power over physical limintations of the body, power to say those last words... or did the HS reveal not what Jesus actually said, but rather what he was thinking in his mind. Similiar to Steven as he looked unto heaven [because we know the stoning did not stop in order that Steven might moderate what was going on]... or that since we have conflicting accounts of what Jesus last words are, we simply don't know. For those who don't know, hanging on the cross caused your body structure to sag which blocked your air. They died of suffication. A normal person would have no ability to say anything during the last hour, much less right before dying. This is why they broke the legs of people hung on a cross so that they could not lift up to gain air. So... what is your opinion? I think I lean toward him dying long before the suffucation process, as verified by them not breaking his bones. This thought now asking what it means to "give up his spirit".



Which last words should we use?
Mark 15:33-37

    At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”). When some of those standing near heard this, they said, “Listen, he’s calling Elijah.” Someone ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said. With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

Matthew 27:45-50

    From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[c] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”). When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.” Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. The rest said, “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to save him.” And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

Luke 23:44-46

    It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 19:28:-29

    Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.


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## The Original Rooster (Dec 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> According to Roman practices the crucified do not get to call the shots on what happens.
> The timeline of death does not make sense.
> The timeline of death and burial does not go along with Jewish tradition.
> The dead were usually left for the birds and animals to prey on.
> ...



There's all sorts of possibilities, but one of them could be that they were telling the truth about what they saw.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 28, 2013)

Indeed.  Bullet surely was not there.  He frequently uses believers' present lives as proof of their inability to know the truth we profess because we were not there.  Here his same logic debars him from claiming any knowledge of falsity. He simply wasn't there.  That bullet believed for 20 years says much.  He is as a scorned woman traipsing the earth, raging at God.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 28, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> This thought now asking what it means to "give up his spirit".





gordon 2 said:


> What does it mean to "give up the ghost"? Is it not to die physically? The body gives up the ghost because the body is no longer vital and cannot hold the soul, but rather it is now lair of the agents for decomposition.
> 
> When Jesus died on the cross... he died physically and gave up the ghost...
> 
> In the resurection the ghost took up a new body, one with visible mortal wounds--yet vital.



I'm trying to derail by asking this because it seems pretty relevant, and yes, it was discussed in the Jesus thread but never clearly agreed upon; When Jesus gave up His spirit does this mean that Jesus' divine nature separated from His human body and it was the "death" of a man's body that paid the price for everyone else?  

If this is too far off topic, I apologize, and you can just ignore me.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

RoosterTodd said:


> There's all sorts of possibilities, but one of them could be that they were telling the truth about what they saw.



That certainly is one of the possibilities but I think being the 4 Gospels tell the specifics at least three different ways they all cannot be correct.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Indeed.  Bullet surely was not there.  He frequently uses believers' present lives as proof of their inability to know the truth we profess because we were not there.  Here his same logic debars him from claiming any knowledge of falsity. He simply wasn't there.  That bullet believed for 20 years says much.  He is as a scorned woman traipsing the earth, raging at God in denial. Can an apostate repent and return to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ?
> 
> Woe to you ...



Accurate historical records tell the truth and separate what you think and what I think. 

I am trying to use history to either back up or eliminate aspects of this discussion.

You have not added anything to the discussion but personal insults.  Your assertions about me are just that...assertions. Back them up if you can. If you have something to back up what scripture is telling us please share it. If you want to try to attack my character send me a PM and I'll go toe to toe with you for as long as you care to stay involved.


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## The Original Rooster (Dec 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> That certainly is one of the possibilities but I think being the 4 Gospels tell the specifics at least three different ways they all cannot be correct.



I tend to feel like this. Like most events throughout history, people remember different parts better than others. The gospels vary due to what different people remembered from the same event.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

RoosterTodd said:


> I tend to feel like this. Like most events throughout history, people remember different parts better than others. The gospels vary due to what different people remembered from the same event.



True, very true throughout history.
But this is the last words of the Son of God, written by people who were inspired by God to write them. Shouldn't they match? If the four authors were standing close enough to hear what Jesus said why would their accounts vary so much? Why would the times vary so much? Why would the last spoken words of their Messiah be so different?

I can only conclude that:
One of those authors might be right and at least two or three others are inaccurate.
There are many specific reasons why those other authors may not be telling the correct facts but that is a discussion in another thread...possibly in another forum.


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## The Original Rooster (Dec 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> True, very true throughout history.
> But this is the last words of the Son of God, written by people who were inspired by God to write them. Shouldn't they match? If the four authors were standing close enough to hear what Jesus said why would their accounts vary so much? Why would the times vary so much? Why would the last spoken words of their Messiah be so different?
> 
> I can only conclude that:
> ...



I really don't know. But, like the assassination of JFK for example, hundreds saw the same event but the stories vary so much that you'd think they were making it up. Folks just remember things differently. Regardless, my faith isn't based on the differences in the gospels.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

RoosterTodd said:


> I really don't know. But, like the assassination of JFK for example, hundreds saw the same event but the stories vary so much that you'd think they were making it up. Folks just remember things differently. Regardless, my faith isn't based on the differences in the gospels.



So the JFK assassination and the Crucifixion are similar?

We have literally hundreds of eye witnesses from the JFK event. YES many conflict. NO, none of those eyewitnesses were inspired by God to tell the truth.

We have only four supposed eyewitnesses to the crucifixion of the Son of God that were inspired to tell the story. No one else that was there that day thought of the event as anything out of the ordinary except for the four authors of the Gospels and those four differ on times, words, number of passovers, when the trial was, who questioned Jesus, who sentenced Jesus, who tried Jesus, when the trial took place, when the crucifixion took place, where the crucifixion took place, and to add even more speculation to it all...Not only do these authors who claim to have been at the execution could not get Jesus last words to match each other's account but each of these authors also give specific and precise words to long and entire conversations that took place between people where we know the authors were not present! How possibly could these authors get those conversations right?
Using the JFK analogy, no one in American History uses any of the hundreds of assassination eyewitnesses to reinforce what was said between JFK and the Driver of the Limo. No one standing along the street knows what was said between JFK and his wife in the back seat of the car one minute before the gunfire. Not one of those eyewitnesses wrote a book stating specific and direct conversations that JFK had with anyone else before the incident happened.
Here, in the Bible, we have four different people telling us at least three different "last words" that Jesus said right there supposedly in front of them AND we have these same authors giving us specific words of detailed conversations that unquestionably took place outside of their presence.

It leads me to believe much of it was not witnessed at all and is totally embellished.

Almost everyone that was alive and old enough to remember the JFK assassination can tell you where they were and what they were doing at the moment it was announced that the President was shot.

On the other hand

Four guys give conflicting accounts of The Son of God's last words and the rest of the eyewitnesses never bothered to make a note of it anywhere.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 28, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm trying to derail by asking this because it seems pretty relevant, and yes, it was discussed in the Jesus thread but never clearly agreed upon; When Jesus gave up His spirit does this mean that Jesus' divine nature separated from His human body and it was the "death" of a man's body that paid the price for everyone else?
> 
> If this is too far off topic, I apologize, and you can just ignore me.



Hawg,

Christ was fully human, and fully God when He died for us.  How that can be, I can't tell you. 

But in answer to your question, I believe Christ fully died a human death, in addition to what else may have occurred.

I believe the Maker of Men, who created life and death, fully experienced his Son's death: Both the physical trauma and cessation of human life, and the 
human and divine spiritual consequences that attended and followed.

I believe Christ's human spirit was condemned to he77, and He was resurrected in both human body and spirit. Here, I would say "soul" is interchangeable with "spirit." In addition, though, I am mindful that Christ is fully divine and that His Spirit likewise was present before, during, and after His death and resurrection.  
Others disagree, but there is at least one answer.

Your want is usually to spin off a half dozen more questions on the how's and why's of a guy's answer. In advance, let me say this is about all I got on the subject, except to say I can imagine no holier subject than Jesus Christ's crucifixion, death and resurrection, and its meaning for us.


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## The Original Rooster (Dec 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> So the JFK assassination and the Crucifixion are similar?
> 
> We have literally hundreds of eye witnesses from the JFK event. YES many conflict. NO, none of those eyewitnesses were inspired by God to tell the truth.
> 
> ...



I believe you carry my example a bit far. They are only similar in that they are both historical events and different accounts have been provided for both. I used it for an example simply because one we can relate to better than the other because it was more recent and we've personally seen the events following it. Who is to say how people felt 50 years after Christ's crucifixion? I know I can't change your opinion but I'd encourage you to continue exploring the subject.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Accurate historical records tell the truth and separate what you think and what I think.
> 
> I am trying to use history to either back up or eliminate aspects of this discussion.
> 
> ...




Your point in many threads is simple: you do not believe the writers of the gospels saw what they stated and instead believe they made it up, embellished.   Your post no. 8 started down that road.  My contribution was to simply point out 
that your bias and logic discredit your assertions.

I understand you here to be saying in part that your comments and opinion should be disregarded as non-authoritative.   Rather, "accurate" historical 
evidence should lead one to the truth.   In any event, I don't think you mind debate that goes to the credibility of an opinion offered based on logic, bias or 
motive.

I did not intend to personally insult you, Bullet, any more than you intend to 
insult me personally when you deny the Christ and cast doubt on the Word.  I re-read my post.  I think it was inartfully presented and I apologize for insulting you. I hope you can forgive me for doing so.

In closing, what strikes me about your current position is your former position.  You have said you believed in Christ and the Word for 20 years. Then something happened.  I find such information quite informative when considering any writer's qualifications, education, trainingm perceptions, intent, bias and motive.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

RoosterTodd said:


> I believe you carry my example a bit far. They are only similar in that they are both historical events and different accounts have been provided for both. I used it for an example simply because one we can relate to better than the other because it was more recent and we've personally seen the events following it. Who is to say how people felt 50 years after Christ's crucifixion? I know I can't change your opinion but I'd encourage you to continue exploring the subject.



I was not alive when JFK was shot. 50years later I cannot accurately give my account of the events that day that are specific to what transpired in Dallas. My parents remember where they were the day JFK was shot. Almost 50 years later they can not tell you any specifics about any conversations that took place by anyone involved in the motorcade, the fans that lined the streets or anyone in the movie theater where Oswald fled to.

Why should the writers of these events that occurred in the Bible be thought to be any more accurate to the specifics of what was said and what went on to events that took place then?


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## Ronnie T (Dec 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> True, very true throughout history.
> But this is the last words of the Son of God, written by people who were inspired by God to write them. Shouldn't they match? If the four authors were standing close enough to hear what Jesus said why would their accounts vary so much? Why would the times vary so much? Why would the last spoken words of their Messiah be so different?
> 
> I can only conclude that:
> ...



Quite often, when I begin telling a story of something that recently happened, my wife is telling the same story along with me because I don't seem to be telling it the way she likes it to be told.  Now she isn't falsifying information, and neither am I.  I'm simply telling the things that are important to the point I'm making...... and she is doing the same.  (Get's on my last nerve sometimes).

If she and I wanted to fabricate a lie while telling the story we would certainly make sure our individual stories were in complete and total harmony.  But, as usual, we relate stories for different purposes, and so our words don't come close to matching.

I always appreciate the fact that the apostles narratives did not always match exactly.
.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 28, 2013)

"Jesus' last words on the cross"

I'm content with the understanding that Divine things were occurring on the cross.  Things beyond me.  Things that somehow had to be accomplished were being accomplished.  
As for the 'how's' and 'why's' and 'when's',,,,,,,,,,,, I've studied, prayed, and meditated about it a lot and still don't have the full answer.  Served me right!  Teaches me a lesson!  
Trying to keep up with God's stuff.
.


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## The Original Rooster (Dec 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I was not alive when JFK was shot. 50years later I cannot accurately give my account of the events that day that are specific to what transpired in Dallas. My parents remember where they were the day JFK was shot. Almost 50 years later they can not tell you any specifics about any conversations that took place by anyone involved in the motorcade, the fans that lined the streets or anyone in the movie theater where Oswald fled to.
> 
> Why should the writers of these events that occurred in the Bible be thought to be any more accurate to the specifics of what was said and what went on to events that took place then?



Bullethead, you're missing my point. I wasn't alive then either, but I've seen plenty of books published in my lifetime that have different interpretations of the event. I simply offered an example in more recent history of how different stories came from the same event. That's really all I can do.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Your point in many threads is simple: you do not believe the writers of the gospels saw what they stated and instead believe they made it up, embellished.   Your post no. 8 started down that road.  My contribution was to simply point out
> that your bias and logic discredit your assertions.
> 
> I understand you here to be saying in part that your comments and opinion should be disregarded as non-authoritative.   Rather, "accurate" historical
> ...



What I am trying to do is back up my former beliefs and your current beliefs with verifiable facts based off of accurate historical records.

I have come to my current position because there were a few things that just did not make sense to me when I was younger. I believed them anyway. As I got older I took the time to research as much as I could in order to solidify my beliefs. What I found was that what I believed to be true just did not hold up to it's basis. The claims could not be backed up. The facts were false. The accuracy was inaccurate. So I dug deeper......deeper because I thought what I was finding out could not be true, but the deeper I researched, the more I tried to solidify my religious beliefs the more I found out that they were beliefs based off of what I was taught as an infant and not beliefs based off of accurate authors. What I believed, happened no where outside of the Book that my religion used as it's foundation. It was not an event that changed my mind. It has been over 20 more years of me trying to reinforce my initial beliefs but only causing me to realize those beliefs are not based on facts.
I just cannot comfortably subscribe to it anymore. My reasons for discussing it in here is for someone to hopefully point out something I have missed. Tell me something I have not heard. Show me why the facts do not back up claims. 



BT Charlie said:


> I find such information quite informative when considering any writer's qualifications, education, trainingm perceptions, intent, bias and motive.


If you apply that to your own Bible your world will change as mine did.


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## The Original Rooster (Dec 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> What I am trying to do is back up my former beliefs and your current beliefs with verifiable facts based off of accurate historical records.
> 
> I have come to my current position because there were a few things that just did not make sense to me when I was younger. I believed them anyway. As I got older I took the time to research as much as I could in order to solidify my beliefs. What I found was that what I believed to be true just did not hold up to it's basis. The claims could not be backed up. The facts were false. The accuracy was inaccurate. So I dug deeper......deeper because I thought what I was finding out could not be true, but the deeper I researched, the more I tried to solidify my religious beliefs the more I found out that they were beliefs based off of what I was taught as an infant and not beliefs based off of accurate authors. What I believed, happened no where outside of the Book that my religion used as it's foundation. It was not an event that changed my mind. It has been over 20 more years of me trying to reinforce my initial beliefs but only causing me to realize those beliefs are not based on facts.
> I just cannot comfortably subscribe to it anymore. My reasons for discussing it in here is for someone to hopefully point out something I have missed. Tell me something I have not heard. Show me why the facts do not back up claims.
> ...



All I can say is that I hope The Lord reveals himself to you in a way that you can believe in.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

RoosterTodd said:


> Bullethead, you're missing my point. I wasn't alive then either, but I've seen plenty of books published in my lifetime that have different interpretations of the event. I simply offered an example in more recent history of how different stories came from the same event. That's really all I can do.



I know precisely what you are saying. I get your point.

But I am hoping that you see my point is that the assassination of a President and the killing of the Son of God are two very big events in the history of the world.

One of these events involves THE creator of all creation....GOD! In order to tell his story four guys were chosen to tell the entire planet about the details of the life, death and resurrection of the Son Of God.
When you really research the details......I am not sure they did such a good job....who's fault that is can be another debate.

If we are gonna talk about the OP in this thread....Jesus Last Words......well WHAT exactly WERE Jesus last words?????? We have 4 accounts telling three different "last words".......

Matthew 27:46Mark is the same) Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani? that is to say, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
(Verse 50 says he cried out again before dying, but no mention is made of spoken words.)

Luke 23:46: Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.

John 19:30: It is finished

So.........how can we discuss his last words when the book we use that is the word of God tells us three different last words??


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

RoosterTodd said:


> All I can say is that I hope The Lord reveals himself to you in a way that you can believe in.



Oh me too!
I know a lot people in here scoff at me and my ways but this has not been a week long experiment. This has been a life long quest. I decided to gather and compare everything I possibly could to enhance my religious beliefs. It turned out to have the exact opposite effect.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 28, 2013)

Bullet, 

May your search produce fruit in your life and restore you to Christ and His Word.  That is a heart thing, BH, not a head thing.   You must surrender your personal rebellion, marked by doubt.  I say this with the purpose of glorifying Christ, not insulting you.

  Blessings


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Quite often, when I begin telling a story of something that recently happened, my wife is telling the same story along with me because I don't seem to be telling it the way she likes it to be told.  Now she isn't falsifying information, and neither am I.  I'm simply telling the things that are important to the point I'm making...... and she is doing the same.  (Get's on my last nerve sometimes).
> 
> If she and I wanted to fabricate a lie while telling the story we would certainly make sure our individual stories were in complete and total harmony.  But, as usual, we relate stories for different purposes, and so our words don't come close to matching.
> 
> ...



Don't know how I missed your posts...I guess because they were in between me replying to others....
Anyway:
I totally "get" how descriptions of witnesses telling of the exact same event get skewed. I have that happen in my life all the time. 
I think when a God is involved it elevates the credibility to an entirely different level. I think when specific events such as the last words spoken by the Savior of Mankind, the Son of God, the Messiah.....the authors are not a little confused. i think instead of a little welcomed  discrepancy..THIS is the time the credibility and accuracy is tested and should be 100% spot on. In this case we cannot be sure any of the actual authors were even there, let alone heard any words from Jesus and if that is the case it opens an entire can of worms to the validity of the writings that are to be the Word of God.

You and your wife mixing up the color scarf a Caroler wore in the school play is acceptable. Me unsure of the points on the right side of the antlers or whether the deer deer jumped a stump or the stump was a log according to my Son is a non issue.........Wide discrepancy in the last words of the most important man in the history of our existence at the most important time in our history supposedly overseen by the most powerful being in order to tell the story correctly for all of mankind to read...... 
The importance level of accuracy tends to be a little higher in one of those stories.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Bullet,
> 
> May your search produce fruit in your life and restore you to Christ and His Word.  That is a heart thing, BH, not a head thing.   You must surrender your personal rebellion, marked by doubt.  I say this with the purpose of glorifying Christ, not insulting you.
> 
> Blessings



Based on that I can find it in my heart to believe in just about anything. No insult taken or intended.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Don't know how I missed your posts...I guess because they were in between me replying to others....
> Anyway:
> I totally "get" how descriptions of witnesses telling of the exact same event get skewed. I have that happen in my life all the time.
> I think when a God is involved it elevates the credibility to an entirely different level. I think when specific events such as the last words spoken by the Savior of Mankind, the Son of God, the Messiah.....the authors are not a little confused. i think instead of a little welcomed  discrepancy..THIS is the time the credibility and accuracy is tested and should be 100% spot on. In this case we cannot be sure any of the actual authors were even there, let alone heard any words from Jesus and if that is the case it opens an entire can of worms to the validity of the writings that are to be the Word of God.
> ...



My wife and I didn't mix up the color of the scarf; she included the scarfs color, but I didn't even mention the scarf.
Jesus' words from the cross could be received in the same way.  I already know the Bible doesn't contain the history, nor proof, of everything that Jesus did while here on earth.
I probably don't even know everything Jesus said on the cross.  I only know what has been provided.
What else was said that has been kept from me?  I could imagine all sorts of things...... but I'm content to know what God has provided.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> My wife and I didn't mix up the color of the scarf; she included the scarfs color, but I didn't even mention the scarf.
> Jesus' words from the cross could be received in the same way.  I already know the Bible doesn't contain the history, nor proof, of everything that Jesus did while here on earth.
> I probably don't even know everything Jesus said on the cross.  I only know what has been provided.
> What else was said that has been kept from me?  I could imagine all sorts of things...... but I'm content to know what God has provided.



Individually we differ on what it takes to satisfy us. I am content that if there is a God of any magnitude that wants my attention he/she/it surely knows how to contact me in a way that is crystal clear of the intentions and expectations.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Individually we differ on what it takes to satisfy us. I am content that if there is a God of any magnitude that wants my attention he/she/it surely knows how to contact me in a way that is crystal clear of the intentions and expectations.



That is rebellion, Bullet.  A rebel such as I can see that clearly.

When you professed Christ, did you harbor such an attitude? What changed to superimpose this quantum of proof as a condition precedent to your commitment?


The Bible is what it is.   So are you saying it is insufficient for you?


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> That is rebellion, Bullet.
> 
> When you professed Christ, did you harbor such an attitude? What changed to superimpose this quantum of proof as a condition precedent to your commitment?



What changed was as a young boy, before I knew much about anything, I was told how things were. As I matured I was able to figure out how things were. When what I was told matched what I figured out I was satisfied. When what I was told did not match what I was able to figure out doubt was cast and then a real desire to find the truth took precedence. I approach every aspect of my life that way and religion should be no different.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 28, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> When you professed Christ, did you harbor such an attitude? What changed to superimpose this quantum of proof as a condition precedent to your commitment?



When I read this exchange regarding the beliefs of a child, all I could think about was the racial prejudice I was taught by my family as a child. 

I believed what I was taught by my elders.  Why was that not good enough for me?  Why would I even consider looking for my own data upon which to form my own opinion?


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 28, 2013)

LOL, interesting thread, or should I say amusing. Anyway, Back to my thought. What does it mean to give up his spirit? As Bullet pointed out, how/why did he die so early? Did he chose to expire early? Man is not in control of his death. Many people probably died extreme hard deaths who would have opted to go early and pass on the suffering if he had that option. So was it because Jesus had that ability? Or was he taken early by God in order that he not have to suffer so much... or had Jesus already been beaten to the point of being near death? Something to ponder


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## The Original Rooster (Dec 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> What changed was as a young boy, before I knew much about anything, I was told how things were. As I matured I was able to figure out how things were. When what I was told matched what I figured out I was satisfied. When what I was told did not match what I was able to figure out doubt was cast and then a real desire to find the truth took precedence. I approach every aspect of my life that way and religion should be no different.



There's nothing wrong with that in my opinion. The Lord gave us big logical brains and expects us to use them. You may come out of this with a deeper understanding of God than any of us. I've experienced what I call a crisis of faith. I came out of it better than I ever was before. I hope you do as well.


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## The Original Rooster (Dec 28, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> LOL, interesting thread, or should I say amusing. Anyway, Back to my thought. What does it mean to give up his spirit? As Bullet pointed out, how/why did he die so early? Did he chose to expire early? Man is not in control of his death. Many people probably died extreme hard deaths who would have opted to go early and pass on the suffering if he had that option. So was it because Jesus had that ability? Was taken early by God in order that he not have to suffer so much... or had Jesus already been beaten to the point of being near death? Something to ponder



Yes, a great thread. I feel like he had accomplished what he set out to do and then just moved on.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 28, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Individually we differ on what it takes to satisfy us. I am content that if there is a God of any magnitude that wants my attention he/she/it surely knows how to contact me in a way that is crystal clear of the intentions and expectations.



It amazes me that it is not crystal clear what God did and was on the cross, especially when one contemplates even the flies serounding it.

Even the Lord of the flies buckles at what I am seeing, for he was there and knows a great worry for it that I should see it at all.

I can only say that God's intentions and expectations are made perfectly clear for the cross. What other model speaks of a perfect faith in word, deed and affection that a creator could have for his glorious creation? What affliction in the life of man is it not certain salve and a cure? It is the answer to all the great questions that ever were, concerning the afflictions and blessings of man.

What greater example of how to be engaged in the life of man, again the example love and how to love and how to live in relationships? Not to cower at the men of iniquity, wrath and indignation and return to them what they serve. How not to scoof at a good man inspite of his failings. Intead by the example to credit to man equity, grace and dignity.

But then I am reminded that when it was convenient a vietnamese was a gook and a iraqi was a towel head and a german was a hun and a russian was a vermin. Why am I surprized that the cross is made to dehumanize.

 Two thousand yrs after the fact, what the soul of man continues to value as the momentous source of a new creation, a re-creation, a new beginning  and that it is not"of any magnitude that wants my attention" now that is a bit much or it is of a  mind in the attic set to collect cobweb and dust until they gain sufficient trust, in a few yrs, to come down.

What more could be offered? Prayer was, additional to the cross, offered. Fasting was offered. Logic was offered. Parables were offered. Apostles were offered. Bishops were offered. Miracles and martyrs were offered. The church was offered. The Bible was offered. Preachers, teachers and evanglists were offered.

 And today still, Adam is offered these good fixings and the cross!  And Geesh! it ain't Walmart doing the offering. It's at a different parking lot.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 28, 2013)

God obviously cannot die.  Jesus returned to His body in resurrection, so the personality known by His disciples did not die.  They may have left this mortal world for a short time but they did not cease to exist.  So, other than the physical human body that was resurrected later, what died?


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> It amazes me that it is not crystal clear what God did and was on the cross, especially when one contemplates even the flies serounding it.
> 
> Even the Lord of the flies buckles at what I am seeing, for he was there and knows a great worry for it that I should see it at all.
> 
> ...



Yeah,well, ummm....If you are still asking these questions of me after having access to over 5000 of my posts then there is nothing I can say now to make it any clearer.

I'll try in a short reply:
I do not find that the details of what really happened in those times, the Roman procedures, the Jewish traditions...in short "the way things actually were" add up to what is written in the Bible. In order for things to have happened as said in the Bible many serious and important steps had to be side stepped, completely ignored or twisted in ways that just did not happen. To many errors in the inerrant.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 28, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> God obviously cannot die.  Jesus returned to His body in resurrection, so the personality known by His disciples did not die.  They may have left this mortal world for a short time but they did not cease to exist.  So, other than the physical human body that was resurrected later, what died?



You know full well what died. The lamb died as countless lambs died before this. Except this was the last one. Get over it-- the saints are not rodents for your gerbil wheel. You know scripture perhaps more than most. Why bother with what a tired pilgrim might say?

 The lamb died... That's all you need to know... connect the dots.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> God obviously cannot die.  Jesus returned to His body in resurrection, so the personality known by His disciples did not die.  They may have left this mortal world for a short time but they did not cease to exist.  So, other than the physical human body that was resurrected later, what died?



Well that is sort of where I am at....
What is the sacrifice?
If it is all a show knowing you are going to spend eternity in Heaven with God, I'd do it in a heartbeat myself. 6hrs on the cross and a whoopin before it to never really die is a no brainer. "Kid it's gonna hurt for a bit..believe me it is gonna hurt me more than you, but I can make it so you don't feel a thing and then you are not really going to die anyway but spend eternity with me......"
Had God turned his only Son over to Satan for all of eternity in order to free all the past,current and future souls from eternal torture then we'd be onto some real sacrifice. There is something to lose there. That is not a win=win


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## BT Charlie (Dec 28, 2013)

The OP wants a morbid, carnal discussion of what our Savior suffered in relation to others crucified.  Answers to questions like why only six hours instead of 18 more? In response,  Hawg and Bullet can't see any sacrifice at all, no death by anyone on the cross.  At the foot of the cross, the most holy topic of which I can think. The basis of your salvation.

May the Glory of Christ find you and bless you.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 28, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> I'm not sure where I stand on this one. Jesus's last words from the cross, Did he die or give up his spirit long before the typical cause of death from being hung on a cross... which is suffication.... or did he receive some sort of power over physical limintations of the body, power to say those last words... or did the HS reveal not what Jesus actually said, but rather what he was thinking in his mind. Similiar to Steven as he looked unto heaven [because we know the stoning did not stop in order that Steven might moderate what was going on]... or that since we have conflicting accounts of what Jesus last words are, we simply don't know. For those who don't know, hanging on the cross caused your body structure to sag which blocked your air. They died of suffication. A normal person would have no ability to say anything during the last hour, much less right before dying. This is why they broke the legs of people hung on a cross so that they could not lift up to gain air. So... what is your opinion? I think I lean toward him dying long before the suffucation process, as verified by them not breaking his bones. This thought now asking what it means to "give up his spirit".



The original post and it's thoughts and questions.
Just so I can stay focused.
.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> The OP wants a morbid, carnal discussion of what our Savior suffered in relation to others crucified.  Answers to questions like why only six hours instead of 18 more? In response,  Hawg and Bullet can't see any sacrifice at all, no death by anyone on the cross.  At the foot of the cross, the most holy topic of which I can think. The basis of your salvation.
> 
> May the Glory of Christ find you and bless you.



Tens of thousands of people were crucified. 2000 in one mass crucifixion if I remember right. Many many many people died.
To be clear I do think a man named Yeshua died on the cross. I am not convinced it had anything to do with a higher power.
If he was just a man he died.
If he was the Son of God and what is said in the Bible is true he never really died (just like our soul) and he spends eternity with his Father. No, I do not see a sacrifice. God was never without his Son and because of the trinity three are all one.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> The original post and it's thoughts and questions.
> Just so I can stay focused.
> .



I did try to address it in post #30



bullethead said:


> If we are gonna talk about the OP in this thread....Jesus Last Words......well WHAT exactly WERE Jesus last words?????? We have 4 accounts telling three different "last words".......
> 
> Matthew 27:46Mark is the same) Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani? that is to say, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
> (Verse 50 says he cried out again before dying, but no mention is made of spoken words.)
> ...


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## hobbs27 (Dec 28, 2013)

Those that have no ear to hear and no eye to see cannot understand the spiritual/realm. They are stuck to understanding the natural physical realm of death and flesh with natural ears and natural eyes.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 28, 2013)

In accordance with prophesy, the Bible says Jesus' physical body suffered, then died on the cross.  If He did not die physically, there could be no resurrection.
.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 28, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> In accordance with prophesy, the Bible says Jesus' physical body suffered, then died on the cross.  If He did not die physically, there could be no resurrection.
> .




Amen.

I also perceive the Bible as explaining that Jesus' human spirit, or soul, experienced the superficially explained consequences of human death, e.g., it left His deceased flesh, etc.  

Of this -- the crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ -- no learned person I have read, whether historian or theologian -- has ever denied that such occurred.  Generally, historians concur that the Gospels satisfy secular standards applied to ancient texts for veracity. Naturally, we Christ followers rest in the God-breathed inerrancy of the Scripture.

My belief is further that the diety of Christ witnessed and hence experienced His mortal death as well.  So when I say Christ died for our sins, I am trying to  convey that a 
profoundly  holy, incompressible act of divine grace 
occurred.

Ronnie's explanation pointing to the different author's themes, intents and purposes fully outlines for me the most plausible reason for differences within the Gospels.  The Gospels do not say, "the last words of Jesus were" and then provide conflicting information.  Such was not intended by the writers, such did not occur, and any conclusion suggesting such a minor point undermines the credibility of the texts is simply misplaced.

Such a criticism is more likely the result of what is referenced in 2 Cor. 4:4, than the result of a rigorous academic analysis and defensible conclusion.

I think 1gr8bldr is correct in identifying "It is finished" chronologically as Jesus last spoken words prior to His human death. He obviously spoke much after His resurrection and continues to speak today to those with ears to hear.  I find the questions about Christ's cause of death uncomfortable, and the mechanics of what occurred to His human soul and divine Spirit at death as unknowable, beyond my pay grade.

Like the differences in the gospels, which would not be defined as contradictions in evidence in a court of law today, these are lesser matters than the atonement made by our Savior for us and thus not worthy of controversy, in my view.


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## Old Winchesters (Dec 28, 2013)

His last words on the cross don't matter unless they were "ok I give I'm not the savior" and I didn't read that anywhere so what's the point? Knowing I don't have to sacrifice an animal for forgiveness of sins and knowing he provided a means of forgiveness and a pathway to heaven and that I'm saved beyond a shadow of doubt is what matters most to me.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 28, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> You know full well what died. The lamb died as countless lambs died before this. Except this was the last one. Get over it-- the saints are not rodents for your gerbil wheel. You know scripture perhaps more than most. Why bother with what a tired pilgrim might say?
> 
> The lamb died... That's all you need to know... connect the dots.



I honestly don't know what died, and I am trying to connect the dots.  The explanations offered seem to go in circles when the penalty for original sin is brought into the picture. 

The penalty for original sin was death, but death of what?  Was it just the death of the physical, mortal body while the soul lived on?  If so, after the penalty was paid, why do we still die?

This is truly a complicated issue.  My questions are not intended to make light of it.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 28, 2013)

How do you define your existence, Hawg? Are you physical and spiritual in that you think you have a soul?  Most have answered you that Jesus' fully human body and soul did what those things do upon death.  Without much Scriptural authority, I also offered my take on Jesus' divinity, which was simultaneously crucified and experienced His human death.

You keep saying God can't die.  There is Scripture that says a similar thing, suggesting all creation would collapse if such would occur.  We do not exist apart from God's will.  But we're not talking about that.   God dying is much different from saying Christ's diety was present and experienced His physical 
human death and consequences.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 28, 2013)

Old Winchesters said:


> His last words on the cross don't matter unless they were "ok I give I'm not the savior" and I didn't read that anywhere so what's the point? Knowing I don't have to sacrifice an animal for forgiveness of sins and knowing he provided a means of forgiveness and a pathway to heaven and that I'm saved beyond a shadow of doubt is what matters most to me.



Amen.  Well said.


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## Israel (Dec 29, 2013)

There's nothing Jesus said or did before mankind that was not given him by the Father, and _always _for our benefit. 
Seeing him, as I do now, leaves me understanding this can never be over emphasized. 
We are given to see the Oneness of God demonstrated, even in one sent to be among men, precisely for the purpose of blessing man. That it is manifestly worked out in a body of flesh, that weakest of links, weakest of elements in which those imprisoned by its frailty responded to their maker "sure, it's easy to be Godly where you are, "above it all"...but look where we are...see where you have given us to dwell..."

See where you are?
See where you are????


Look, and I will show you I have always been with you...in it.
Bread and wine, bread and wine, bread...and wine. Keep eating...till you see, who you have been eating.


Rom_12:20  Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 29, 2013)

Beautiful.


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## bullethead (Dec 29, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> How do you define your existence, Hawg? Are you physical and spiritual in that you think you have a soul?  Most have answered you that Jesus' fully human body and soul did what those things do upon death.  Without much Scriptural authority, I also offered my take on Jesus' divinity, which was simultaneously crucified and experienced His human death.
> 
> You keep saying God can't die.  There is Scripture that says a similar thing, suggesting all creation would collapse if such would occur.  We do not exist apart from God's will.  But we're not talking about that.   God dying is much different from saying Christ's diety was present and experienced His physical
> human death and consequences.



According to the Bible we will all experience a physical death but our soul will go on forever in either One of the Two places. How we worship God will determine where the soul ends up.
Jesus was no different except for being the Son of God, being part of the Trinity which makes him God, being part of the plan where he is going to physically die, be resurrected by God, ascend into H3ll (where nothing happens to him), ascend into Heaven where he will spend eternity at the right hand of the Father, have people worship Jesus as a God etc etc etc.....

I am not seeing a sacrifice here. And I am not seeing death as you and I would experience death.
A sacrifice is losing something dear and important to you in order to gain something else. It is a price to pay. It is picking one thing and losing another.

You and I HOPE we are headed to an eternal place that is pleasant. Neither one of us is sure that is going to happen. Jesus knew the plan and where he was going. There is no reason that the physical pain he endured was anything more than visual for our benefit. If he could "choose" when he was going to die on the cross, if he could heal lepers, raise dead people back to life(yes Jesus was not the first to be resurrected), get a sheckle from a fish to pay his taxes, and any one of another 50 miracles, then I am guessing he could turn off the pain too.

According to the Bible Satan wants our souls. Had God said that Jesus was going to go through all the same stuff he did here on Earth, only after crucifixion he is going to offer his only Son to spend eternity in h3ll and in order to save all of the souls...THAT is a sacrifice.

The way the Bible tells it who lost? What was lost? Was God hurt seeing his Son endure the punishment here on Earth....the exact punishment God himself literally created Jesus for??
According to the Bible God made Jesus to be born of a virgin, live in absolute secrecy for 30 years,preach for 3 years, do EXACTLY what he did as recorded in the Bible for those 3 years(there is no mention anywhere that Jesus disobeyed "the plan") and die so that we can be saved.
A snap of the almighty fingers would not suffice. God had to think this thing through and decide Jesus was going to endure every single ounce of what he went through. How did that upset God if he planned it to happen?

Saved from who?
God!!! That's who...
Before Jesus.. if we didn't believe in God and worship him we didn't get into the Pearly Gates.
After Jesus if we do not believe in Jesus and worship him we don't get into the Pearly Gates.

What then was the purpose of ending Jesus here?
He died for our Sins.....
OKAY....so then the slate is wiped clean for all of the past,present and future souls for all of eternity and we can sin no more and we will all get into Heaven right? NOPE. We still have got to follow the rules....the same rules everybody on the planet was breaking before God sent Jesus. God KNOWS ahead of time what would happen before, during, and after Jesus....nothing has changed....the Devil still wants us, we still must obey and worship according to God's wishes, as Christians praying to the God of Abraham is not good enough (like the Jews and Muslims still do) we now instead have to pray to Jesus. We claim we are a monotheistic religion but we have God,Jesus and the Holy Ghost. I count THREE!!! I am told..."well no, they are Three separate at times but they operate together as one whole". Then If God is Jesus and Jesus is God and the Holy Ghost is the same WHY exactly are there differences in all these religions that worship the God of Abraham??(But that is an entirely new thread....sorry for getting off track).

I honestly would love to sit here and break all this down with you guys. THIS stuff is why I come in here. I look forward to the day when someone will make sense of all this instead of telling me to overlook things, don't listen to my head listen to my heart and to Follow the Bible to the "T" because it is the inerrant infallible word of God....but take some things with a grain of salt because man wrote it.....

I have asked many men of the cloth these in depth questions over the years. It goes well until they are literally out of hard factual answers. I am then told that "I am not ready to accept Jesus" "Come back when you have found the answers you seek" "I cannot help you" etc etc etc.
What I have found is that no one actually knows anything for sure. We are all taking some available information and getting out of it what we want and need, not necessarily what is true. The searching I am doing is what I need to do, others require more or less but in different ways in order to satisfy them.
I hope a real discussion can come of this. I am sincere. I am not doing this to create waves. I take every reply seriously even though I will usually question them until I am content with the answer.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 29, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I honestly don't know what died, and I am trying to connect the dots.  The explanations offered seem to go in circles when the penalty for original sin is brought into the picture.
> 
> The penalty for original sin was death, but death of what?  Was it just the death of the physical, mortal body while the soul lived on?  If so, after the penalty was paid, why do we still die?
> 
> This is truly a complicated issue.  My questions are not intended to make light of it.



Ok, I will take you at your words here.

 Maybe the sacrifice on the cross was not to take away original sin---which would explain why we die physically. Perhaps it was a sacrifice for your personal sins--the ones you conjure up by yourself which of course have their genesis from your inheritance in the fall.


A sacrifice which would clean the slate of your spirit, which  spirit is initially foreign to the divine and his designs, would liberate your soul. That liberated soul now has free will and it is made perfect, born again, although the flesh mind continues for the body which is still under the impress of the original sin. 

The body will only be liberated at the resurrection and that resurrection will only come about through the free agency of the soul and the now liberated spirit in relationship with the divine--or by faith. ( Thus Paul's race.)

So in the cross the spirit of the old Adam dies, simply for contemplating the cross which is his exact opposite and a new spirit is given to man. Or in other word he is given the Holy Spirit.

So at the cross a new spirit is created in man and given by what we call God's grace. Also, for the cross and for the resurrection of our Lord, we have it that our bodies will  also be perfected and made incorruptible or perfected as is the divine's intention for his creation. 

If you can sink this in, the view of creation which christians through their faith in the divine reveals is radically different from what we physically perceive. Our faith reveals that the body's perceptions ( its many minds and reasonings) are not valid tool to assess  the reality of creation. And especially that its many minds judge ( assess) the cross itself a foolishness--it is not a good assessement tool.

Hope this helps you in understanding. And for what its worth, I'll add my .02cents. There is a saying about the army, "Be all you can be". Only in Christ am I fully man and only in Christ I know the army's saying to ring with genuine veracity.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 29, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I honestly don't know what died, and I am trying to connect the dots.  The explanations offered seem to go in circles when the penalty for original sin is brought into the picture.
> 
> The penalty for original sin was death, but death of what?  Was it just the death of the physical, mortal body while the soul lived on?  If so, after the penalty was paid, why do we still die?
> 
> This is truly a complicated issue.  My questions are not intended to make light of it.


You guys have me doing alot of thinking..... trying to connect some dots, as you say. Here is the foundation that I am working with, which is simple, yet has a few dots left unconnected. Mostly, has some dots left out because when you connect them, the picture becomes distorted. Here is that picture I get from the dots I choose to use, LOL. 

 God created man for whatever reason. This first man, Adam, which means "man" was created to be eternal. He was to be the first, made in God's image. Yet due to sin invoked by an angel that wished not to serve as an angel but aspired to rival God, attempting to steal his glory for himself, Eve sinned, led Adam to sin. Not just a sin, but much bigger. They were enticed into that same plot to be "like God". To overstep their intended purpose of "man" and to try to obtain God's glory, to rival God. This could not be tolerated, so man was given a curse of "you will surely die". Time began. They did not die at that point, but "time" began and the ageing process began. Man was kicked out of the garden of Eden. Which I believe was heaven. Sent to live out his days on earth. God promised that one day he would make a way of reconciliation. Big skip in time. When times reached fullfillment, the promise over and over of a savior came to pass. Jesus was born. Recorded birth and early life patterned after that of Moses, one who was sent by God to lead the people. Jesus's life pleased God. Where Adam failed to represent God to the world, Jesus did so well that he was credited with being the exact representation of that image. After being handed over to the Romans as one starting a revolt, Jesus died on the cross. God interveined and raised him from the dead. He was restored to that which Adam lost. The "second Adam".


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## hummerpoo (Dec 29, 2013)

Israel said:


> There's nothing Jesus said or did before mankind that was not given him by the Father, and _always _for our benefit.
> Seeing him, as I do now, leaves me understanding this can never be over emphasized.
> We are given to see the Oneness of God demonstrated, even in one sent to be among men, precisely for the purpose of blessing man. That it is manifestly worked out in a body of flesh, that weakest of links, weakest of elements in which those imprisoned by its frailty responded to their maker "sure, it's easy to be Godly where you are, "above it all"...but look where we are...see where you have given us to dwell..."
> 
> ...



Does heat kill hair follicules?


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 29, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> You guys have me doing alot of thinking..... trying to connect some dots, as you say. Here is the foundation that I am working with, which is simple, yet has a few dots left unconnected. Mostly, has some dots left out because when you connect them, the picture becomes distorted. Here is that picture I get from the dots I choose to use, LOL.
> 
> God created man for whatever reason. This first man, Adam, which means "man" was created to be eternal. He was to be the first, made in God's image. Yet due to sin invoked by an angel that wished not to serve as an angel but aspired to rival God, attempting to steal his glory for himself, Eve sinned, led Adam to sin. Not just a sin, but much bigger. They were enticed into that same plot to be "like God". To overstep their intended purpose of "man" and to try to obtain God's glory, to rival God. This could not be tolerated, so man was given a curse of "you will surely die". Time began. They did not die at that point, but "time" began and the ageing process began. Man was kicked out of the garden of Eden. Which I believe was heaven. Sent to live out his days on earth. God promised that one day he would make a way of reconciliation. Big skip in time. When times reached fullfillment, the promise over and over of a savior came to pass. Jesus was born. Recorded birth and early life patterned after that of Moses, one who was sent by God to lead the people. Jesus's life pleased God. Where Adam failed to represent God to the world, Jesus did so well that he was credited with being the exact representation of that image. After being handed over to the Romans as one starting a revolt, Jesus died on the cross. God interveined and raised him from the dead. He was restored to that which Adam lost. The "second Adam".


As you can see, much is skipped over in an attempt to simplify. Yet much preconceived ideas from each reader will be "read into" that may not reflect that of my own. Such as Jesus being the sacrifice for the sins of the world. I ascribe more to Jesus being the way of reconciliation. That eternal life, that which Adam lost for man is now been made available again through Jesus


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## hobbs27 (Dec 29, 2013)

bullethead said:


> According to the Bible we will all experience a physical death but our soul will go on forever in either One of the Two places. How we worship God will determine where the soul ends up.
> Jesus was no different except for being the Son of God, being part of the Trinity which makes him God, being part of the plan where he is going to physically die, be resurrected by God, ascend into H3ll (where nothing happens to him), ascend into Heaven where he will spend eternity at the right hand of the Father, have people worship Jesus as a God etc etc etc.....
> 
> I am not seeing a sacrifice here. And I am not seeing death as you and I would experience death.
> A sacrifice is losing something dear and important to you in order to gain something else. It is a price to pay. It is picking one thing and losing another.



Actually alot of what you say above is what gets taught in church, sunday school and such to defend certain church doctrines, but the bible does not say all those things. Such as...Jesus was different. the virgin birth was not His creation nor was it His first trip to earth, but it was an incarnation in which God came here to live in the flesh...making him 100% man---with that came pain,hurt,temptations and a physical death. He was also 100% God while here in the flesh---our natuarl minds cannot concieve this easily, but look at what Jesus went through in the wilderness with Satan--He was tempted---look at His prayer in the garden--He did anguish that which He knew He had to do, not for His sake but for ours. He did feel pain--He did suffer!

Another thing--Jesus spending eternity at the right hand of the Father is just figuritive speech identifying Him as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords---Jesus' whereabouts now is in the midst-- He is the ruler of His kingdom in which all that profess are partakers.




> You and I HOPE we are headed to an eternal place that is pleasant. Neither one of us is sure that is going to happen.


 
 I know! The bible in the KJV calls it a hope but look up the greek word for hope and the definition--it really means an expectation...Something you know and and expect to happen---I sometimes feel as Paul did when he said in Phillipians 1:23  For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
 No doubt the flesh in which Christ was in here felt the same, for we as children of God also have the desires especially as we grow older.




> Jesus knew the plan and where he was going. There is no reason that the physical pain he endured was anything more than visual for our benefit. If he could "choose" when he was going to die on the cross, if he could heal lepers, raise dead people back to life(yes Jesus was not the first to be resurrected), get a sheckle from a fish to pay his taxes, and any one of another 50 miracles, then I am guessing he could turn off the pain too.


 
The pain was because of me..It was my sin He bared on the cross that gave Him death of the flesh---He is my personal Savior...He did it for me..  all of it because of me. If you are born again, He did it all for you.



> According to the Bible Satan wants our souls. Had God said that Jesus was going to go through all the same stuff he did here on Earth, only after crucifixion he is going to offer his only Son to spend eternity in h3ll and in order to save all of the souls...THAT is a sacrifice.



 Ch. and verse please that says literally Satan wants our souls...you keep saying the bible says;;;but where? All I find in the Bible is Satan being prince of this world and all he wants is power here.




> The way the Bible tells it who lost?



Satan was dealt a deadly blow, he lost. His sentence has been handed down and his future is known, he's a dead man walking, but he's still fighting for power.



> What was lost?


 The sting of death. In the OT when one died they went to heII of torment or a holding place called paradise, reference the rich man and Lazarus or reference Samuel and the witch of endor. Seperated from God these people also had to wait for a Savior. When Christ died on the cross he freed the captives...reference the resurrection of the saints in Matthew after His resurrection.



> Was God hurt seeing his Son endure the punishment here on Earth....the exact punishment God himself literally created Jesus for??



God did not create Jesus, Jesus has been with God since the beginning, Jesus along with the Holy Ghost along with the Father are one God....Was the Father hurt by seeing His Son die? Yes...So much so He had to turn His face away---My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me..




> According to the Bible God made Jesus to be born of a virgin, live in absolute secrecy for 30 years,preach for 3 years, do EXACTLY what he did as recorded in the Bible for those 3 years(there is no mention anywhere that Jesus disobeyed "the plan") and die so that we can be saved.
> A snap of the almighty fingers would not suffice. God had to think this thing through and decide Jesus was going to endure every single ounce of what he went through. How did that upset God if he planned it to happen?
> 
> Saved from who?
> God!!! That's who...


 Again..God did not create Jesus to do these things Jesus was, is, always has been and always will be. It is because of my sin Jesus went through this it is my fault---Jesus went through all this to provide a perfect sacrifice that I may be forgiven....I dont think God had to sit back and think it through either. Everything that happened snce the beginning happened to prepare us for the age we are currently in--the church age --or covenant of grace.





> Before Jesus.. if we didn't believe in God and worship him we didn't get into the Pearly Gates.
> After Jesus if we do not believe in Jesus and worship him we don't get into the Pearly Gates.
> 
> What then was the purpose of ending Jesus here?
> ...



 You are a victim of church teachings, you seem to hold on to what you have been taught the bible says but when you find the bible says something that doesnt coincide with what the church has taught you discredit the bible...Am I wrong? Could be thats just the way I see your responses.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 29, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> As you can see, much is skipped over in an attempt to simplify. Yet much preconceived ideas from each reader will be "read into" that may not reflect that of my own. Such as Jesus being the sacrifice for the sins of the world. I ascribe more to Jesus being the way of reconciliation. That eternal life, that which Adam lost for man is now been made available again through Jesus



I expect that this post might raise some question so I should explain. Jesus's death did not save the world, nor did it wipe the slate clean for the world, for past, present and future sins. But it made a way of reconciliation for those who choose to believe that it was sufficient, that it is finished. That being good enough,  is replaced with a promise of grace that moves us to be worthy of this grace, not to be confused with worthy to deserve anything


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## hummerpoo (Dec 29, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I hope a real discussion can come of this.



Although I wish I could, I can not oblige you.



> I am sincere.



My heart tells me this is true, but the small amount of your writings on this forum, which I have read, tells me that you will revert to requiring what no man can provide; proof within physical parameters for metaphysical truth.  Earlier you expressed your confidence that God can provide satisfactory proof.  I pray that He will.



> How we worship God will determine where the soul ends up.



It occurrs to me that this might be something you could investigate further.

Peace and joy,
God provides


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## Israel (Dec 29, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> You guys have me doing alot of thinking..... trying to connect some dots, as you say. Here is the foundation that I am working with, which is simple, yet has a few dots left unconnected. Mostly, has some dots left out because when you connect them, the picture becomes distorted. Here is that picture I get from the dots I choose to use, LOL.
> 
> God created man for whatever reason. This first man, Adam, which means "man" was created to be eternal. He was to be the first, made in God's image. Yet due to sin invoked by an angel that wished not to serve as an angel but aspired to rival God, attempting to steal his glory for himself, Eve sinned, led Adam to sin. Not just a sin, but much bigger. They were enticed into that same plot to be "like God". To overstep their intended purpose of "man" and to try to obtain God's glory, to rival God. This could not be tolerated, so man was given a curse of "you will surely die". Time began. They did not die at that point, but "time" began and the ageing process began. Man was kicked out of the garden of Eden. Which I believe was heaven. Sent to live out his days on earth. God promised that one day he would make a way of reconciliation. Big skip in time. When times reached fullfillment, the promise over and over of a savior came to pass. Jesus was born. Recorded birth and early life patterned after that of Moses, one who was sent by God to lead the people. Jesus's life pleased God. Where Adam failed to represent God to the world, Jesus did so well that he was credited with being the exact representation of that image. After being handed over to the Romans as one starting a revolt, Jesus died on the cross. God interveined and raised him from the dead. He was restored to that which Adam lost. The "second Adam".



As something that again, to me, cannot be overemphasized...dig dig dig into that...reason.
Does God need servants? What can't he do for himself...perfectly?
Is God megalomaniacal? Does he need "things" to make him feel better about himself? Does he create beings just so they can throw themselves at his feet? Does he have power and authority and control issues?

Could Jesus really be the reason? And the reason expositor?

What is Jesus attitude when he declares the "Father is greater than I"...is there any covetousness in it? Any feeling of inferiority? Any sense of "gee, I am so sorry I am having to say this..."?

Or is it entirely: "man oh man...Daddy is so great! He's my Daddy...and he is so great...he's greater than I! Wait till you see...wait till you know whom you've been made...to know! You'll be as happy and joyous as me! Cause he's your Daddy, too!"

Is the "for whatever reason"...similar to when you are killing the fish on a lake and you think "man, I wish my grandson was here to enjoy this with me" kinda thing?

Is it..."it is worth waiting for till they wake up and discover how happy I am in my being."?..because  who and what he is is so spectacularly generous in his heart he couldn't and wouldn't bear keeping it to himself...and so he even gave his own son to say this:

Joh_17:23  I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 


The cost of being able to get us to hear that will never be "thrown in our face"...if we but hear it...and believe.
But seeing the cost is never denied us if we have the proper attitude in that faith. 
Because seeing the cost is in precise measure to learning our value...before him.

Loved that much...really? No one could get me to believe that, except the one whom I know...never lies. It must be very important then...seeing the price he paid to speak among men...for him to say it...to me...to "us".


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 29, 2013)

Israel said:


> As something that again, to me, cannot be overemphasized...dig dig dig into that...reason.
> Does God need servants? What can't he do for himself...perfectly?
> Is God megalomaniacal? Does he need "things" to make him feel better about himself? Does he create beings just so they can throw themselves at his feet? Does he have power and authority and control issues?
> 
> ...


 I think  like David "what is man that you care for him". Not asking but acknowledging that we are grateful for this unmerited favor


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## Israel (Dec 29, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> I think  like David "what is man that you care for him". Not asking but acknowledging that we are grateful for this unmerited favor



Amen!
What is man?
Ecce homo.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 29, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Amen.
> 
> I also perceive the Bible as explaining that Jesus' human spirit, or soul, experienced the superficially explained consequences of human death, e.g., it left His deceased flesh, etc.
> 
> ...


Amen, well said.


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Actually alot of what you say above is what gets taught in church, sunday school and such to defend certain church doctrines, but the bible does not say all those things. Such as...Jesus was different. the virgin birth was not His creation nor was it His first trip to earth, but it was an incarnation in which God came here to live in the flesh...making him 100% man---with that came pain,hurt,temptations and a physical death. He was also 100% God while here in the flesh---our natuarl minds cannot concieve this easily, but look at what Jesus went through in the wilderness with Satan--He was tempted---look at His prayer in the garden--He did anguish that which He knew He had to do, not for His sake but for ours. He did feel pain--He did suffer!


So Jesus is God/God is Jesus. In no way was either in danger of losing the other. No sacrifice



hobbs27 said:


> Another thing--Jesus spending eternity at the right hand of the Father is just figuritive speech identifying Him as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords---Jesus' whereabouts now is in the midst-- He is the ruler of His kingdom in which all that profess are partakers.


I think you are injecting your own personal thoughts a bit there.






hobbs27 said:


> I know! The bible in the KJV calls it a hope but look up the greek word for hope and the definition--it really means an expectation...Something you know and and expect to happen---I sometimes feel as Paul did when he said in Phillipians 1:23  For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
> No doubt the flesh in which Christ was in here felt the same, for we as children of God also have the desires especially as we grow older.


Still none of us know anything for certain.






hobbs27 said:


> The pain was because of me..It was my sin He bared on the cross that gave Him death of the flesh---He is my personal Savior...He did it for me..  all of it because of me. If you are born again, He did it all for you.


I was mistaken, I thought he did it for all of mankind.





hobbs27 said:


> Ch. and verse please that says literally Satan wants our souls...you keep saying the bible says;;;but where? All I find in the Bible is Satan being prince of this world and all he wants is power here.


Luke 22:31

King James Version (KJV)
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:








hobbs27 said:


> Satan was dealt a deadly blow, he lost. His sentence has been handed down and his future is known, he's a dead man walking, but he's still fighting for power.


Is he unable to be eliminated?






hobbs27 said:


> God did not create Jesus, Jesus has been with God since the beginning, Jesus along with the Holy Ghost along with the Father are one God....Was the Father hurt by seeing His Son die? Yes...So much so He had to turn His face away---My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me..


Again, I think you are making my point for me. Jesus is God. God sent a human version of himself to earth. God knew what was supposed to happen and it happened according to the plan. God full well knew that his earthly version of himself was coming back to Heaven. God literally killed millions upon millions of people in the Bible(yes I can give you ch.&vs) I don't think what Jesus was sent here to do upset God in the least, especially because THAT is the Exact job Jesus was sent here to do.
How could God have been surprised or upset at the results when it went according to plan?





hobbs27 said:


> Again..God did not create Jesus to do these things Jesus was, is, always has been and always will be. It is because of my sin Jesus went through this it is my fault---Jesus went through all this to provide a perfect sacrifice that I may be forgiven....I dont think God had to sit back and think it through either. Everything that happened snce the beginning happened to prepare us for the age we are currently in--the church age --or covenant of grace.


So Jesus was not created..... He always was.....then I can only surmise Jesus was in on the plan too. What Jesus went through was not a sacrifice.







hobbs27 said:


> You are a victim of church teachings, you seem to hold on to what you have been taught the bible says but when you find the bible says something that doesnt coincide with what the church has taught you discredit the bible...Am I wrong? Could be thats just the way I see your responses.



I realized the Church was teaching it's way of the Bible so I moved on to the Bible. When I really researched the Bible that was the beginning of the end of religious beliefs for me.


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## Israel (Dec 30, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Still struggling with your message.
> 
> Do my friends who risk their very lives in obedience to the call of Christ, sharing the gospel under foreign penalty of death for doing so, serve in vain?
> 
> ...



It's not a matter of thinking anyone is deluded at all.

To make every effort to find out what pleases the Lord is a worthy endeavor.
I don't see anyone "not doing that" at all.

Of course that doesn't make me innocent of the charge of being a slacker in it...but...nor am I accusing anyone of their working out of their salvation by any malignant motive.

I am only speaking of what I have seen.
"Do whatever he tells you" remains a single instruction.


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## 04ctd (Dec 30, 2013)

Matthew 27:46 
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

IRT the OP, I think this verse says much to men of the faith who have a CLOSE daily walk with the Lord.

they feel the Lord moving on thier spirit, and guiding them.
and now...just think, if you, in your sorry sin riddled flesh, can feel the Lord God who created the Universe, if you can somehow hear Him nudging you & talking to you in some way.

think how CLOSE Jesus walked to His Father...they must have been in constant communication: prayer, talking, visiting, constant communion

and before Jesus's fleshly body could physically be allowed to be painted with sin, God had to withdraw from Jesus, so that Jesus could accept the sin of the world.

and imagine...that accepting the sin of our entire world hurt LESS than His Father pulling back His fellowship from His son.

Ronnie/Isreal, correct me if I am wrong.....


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## bullethead (Dec 30, 2013)

04ctd said:


> Matthew 27:46
> And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
> 
> IRT the OP, I think this verse says much to men of the faith who have a CLOSE daily walk with the Lord.
> ...



Why does Luke and John say those last words are different?
Which words were actually spoken by Jesus and why not were all of those "final" words recorded unanimously? Were all the words not heard by all? and If not, how can they all be his final words?



> Matthew and Mark is the same) Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani? that is to say, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
> (Verse 50 says he cried out again before dying, but no mention is made of spoken words.)
> 
> Luke 23:46: Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.
> ...


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## hobbs27 (Dec 30, 2013)

bullethead said:


> So Jesus is God/God is Jesus. In no way was either in danger of losing the other. No sacrifice



No sacrifice? Lets see, as God Jesus lowered Himself to be born in the flesh, deal with all the temptations and pains of this world, be ridiculed, spat on, beat, whipped, nailed to a cross of shame, just so you would have a path to salvation. You are right He was in no danger of being anything but God, but He did these things in which He did not have to.




> I think you are injecting your own personal thoughts a bit there.


 Perhaps, but it is my most interested topic and one if you would truly love to sit and talk about we could. It is this one subject I believe in which the church is failing--they misinterpret what the bible says and use it to scare people into believing and they also use it to distance people from their peronal savior Jesus Christ---There truly is a natural physical/ realm and a spiritual/realm. It is only through being born again, recieving the spiritual ears to hear and spiritual eyes to see that our faith grows stronger not weaker. 






> Still none of us know anything for certain.


 I do...but you must understand my salvation is personal. That is why I made the point that what Christ did on the cross was for me--If no one else it was for me and because of my sins. My Savior and I have a relationship, we commune with one another, yet the meetings we have are personal, you or no one else is involved, this is why I cannot prove it to you, but Jesus has proven Himself to me.











> Luke 22:31
> 
> King James Version (KJV)
> 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:


 This is not for his soul, but Satan has asked to trouble him just as he did Job









> Is he unable to be eliminated?


 If you mean eliminated by death, then yes. He is a celestial being, and is preserved by the word of God----

Revelation 20:10

King James Version (KJV)


10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 But he has already been eliminated from my life, sure he tries and tempts but I have a Savior to call on and satan runs to hide when I do.







> Again, I think you are making my point for me. Jesus is God. God sent a human version of himself to earth. God knew what was supposed to happen and it happened according to the plan. God full well knew that his earthly version of himself was coming back to Heaven. God literally killed millions upon millions of people in the Bible(yes I can give you ch.&vs) I don't think what Jesus was sent here to do upset God in the least, especially because THAT is the Exact job Jesus was sent here to do.
> How could God have been surprised or upset at the results when it went according to plan?[/COLOR]



 I look at it differently. How could any man understand the plan God went through and not be upset with the results of mankind?





> I realized the Church was teaching it's way of the Bible so I moved on to the Bible. When I really researched the Bible that was the beginning of the end of religious beliefs for me.



 Im afraid you may have never made a connection with the spiritual/realm..maybe Im wrong and you just shunned it, many people do this today. I find it strange that when I was giving up on church doctrines the holy spirit directed me through scripture and proved Himself to me and grew my faith---and you became even more lost and faded in faith, yet something keeps you around Gods people, or you would totally ignore this section. There must be something urging you or something guiding you here.


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## Israel (Dec 30, 2013)

Sometimes I wonder what experiences some of us have had with pain, I mean, I don't mean to diminish anyone's experience, I know some of you have battled terribly deep experiences of it.
But, I am nevertheless inclined to believe there remain some who have not experienced the singular focus pain is able to engender in a man, be it psychic, physical, emotional...spiritual.
We are well aware of what Jesus endured of men, but...what of the spiritual tauntings, the flood of harpielike demons seeking to cloud the heavens above him, the screeching of demons delighting in their assumed triumph, the howling by the prince of the power of the air   "ha, you've gone too far this time...you're mine now...all mine...blasphemer...son of God...ha...you will die like a man, and all men are mine...there is no such thing as salvation (if you don't know the devil never plays "fair"...and will lie to your face in your tears, in your agony...with glee...)
He couldn't budge Jesus. 
Mercy, even there, in agony...toward a thief.
Wine came out...not a drop of vinegar.
I fear for you who say it was no sacrifice, for you are inviting a testing of your own mettle, even unknowingly...you are assuming it to yourself...what you believe the Lord did with some sort of impunity. Triumph he did, in wisdom, mercy and grace.

"henceforth I have not much to say, for the prince of this world cometh and he has nothing in me"
Oh, how he would look for a "button" to push, a place searched out where he could take a stand in the Lord's being and provoke.
Don't imagine it was not a full on assault.
have you ever been sifted? Have you ever felt as though your center was dissolving...flesh in pain, soul being tormented...spiritual beings howling into your thoughts?
Yet, Jesus kept the tabernacle pure and clean.

I recommend you not invite it. You already know more of devils than is healthy. Seek the Lord.


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## Israel (Dec 30, 2013)

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot one important thing:

Mat_26:53  Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Do you think a man stupid for not saving himself when he easily could have?

Or...do you see something else?


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## Ronnie T (Dec 30, 2013)

Israel said:


> Sometimes I wonder what experiences some of us have had with pain, I mean, I don't mean to diminish anyone's experience, I know some of you have battled terribly deep experiences of it.
> But, I am nevertheless inclined to believe there remain some who have not experienced the singular focus pain is able to engender in a man, be it psychic, physical, emotional...spiritual.
> We are well aware of what Jesus endured of men, but...what of the spiritual tauntings, the flood of harpielike demons seeking to cloud the heavens above him, the screeching of demons delighting in their assumed triumph, the howling by the prince of the power of the air   "ha, you've gone too far this time...you're mine now...all mine...blasphemer...son of God...ha...you will die like a man, and all men are mine...there is no such thing as salvation (if you don't know the devil never plays "fair"...and will lie to your face in your tears, in your agony...with glee...)
> He couldn't budge Jesus.
> ...





04ctd said:


> Matthew 27:46
> And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
> 
> IRT the OP, I think this verse says much to men of the faith who have a CLOSE daily walk with the Lord.
> ...



Amen brothers.
.


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## 04ctd (Dec 30, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Why does Luke and John say those last words are different?
> Which words were actually spoken by Jesus and why not were all of those "final" words recorded unanimously? Were all the words not heard by all? and If not, how can they all be his final words?



the answer is in his word:

Matthew 27:55
And many women who followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to Him, were there looking on from afar,

Mark 15:40
There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the Less and of Joses, and Salome,

you remarked earlier that you had superlative knowledge of how His crucifixion was different than all the others.

I would request you search your database and pinpoint where the people who "_loved"_ Jesus would have stood.

where the people who "_Agape'd_" Jesus would have stood

where the people who "_phileo'd"_ Jesus would have stood.


i think some would have been near, unafraid of the Roman soldiers....and some of the soldiers would have been afraid to push them away, because, as you stated...there was SOMETHING DIFFERENT about this one...

and some of them, may have stayed with the women, out of some sense of duty, or some out of fear, or some out of self guilt.

but, later, each recorded what they heard, from their vantage point.




Israel said:


> He couldn't budge Jesus.
> Jesus kept the tabernacle pure and clean.



well said, my wordy brother.
sometimes, you make me cry when I read your diatribes.
not tonite, because  I know the stoic intensity of Jesus' countenance as He hung there....until it was time to say 'IT IS FINISHED'

Amen


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## HawgJawl (Dec 30, 2013)

04ctd said:


> and before Jesus's fleshly body could physically be allowed to be painted with sin, God had to withdraw from Jesus, so that Jesus could accept the sin of the world.
> 
> and imagine...that accepting the sin of our entire world hurt LESS than His Father pulling back His fellowship from His son.
> 
> Ronnie/Isreal, correct me if I am wrong.....



So then, Jesus was not God when He was crucified?

If He was still God but the Father separated Himself from Jesus, how does that relate to the Trinity?


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## bullethead (Dec 31, 2013)

04ctd said:


> the answer is in his word:
> 
> Matthew 27:55
> And many women who followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to Him, were there looking on from afar,
> ...



LOTS of Marys on that hill huh? 

I guess then depending on where one stood the words on the wooden sign that was placed on the cross would have differed too and each recorded what they had read.

Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. (John 19:19)

Above his head they placed the written charge against him: THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS. (Matthew 27:37)

The written notice of the charge against him read: THE KING OF THE JEWS.
(Mark 15:25-26)

There was a written notice above him, which read: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. (Luke 23:38)


----------



## bullethead (Dec 31, 2013)

Did Jesus die inside or outside of Jerusalem? Inside of town or outside of town?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 31, 2013)

I would like some input on Jesus saying "it is finished." To me he was talking about his earthly mission as our Savior. His death on the cross finished the task he was sent by his Father to do. 
Jesus does continue to have other tasks for lack of a better word. He is still our Lord. He is our Mediator to God. He will return to Earth to gather us home. He will take on the role of Judge. He will possibly rule the Earth for 1,000 years. 
In relation to the moment of my salvation, I don't consider it finished. Unless we are talking about my old self which is finished. My new self going through a new birth is just beginning. My mission for lack of a better word is to try and become more Christ like. Again the word Holiness pops in my head. 
Jesus being our Lord requires lordship.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 31, 2013)

bullethead said:


> LOTS of Marys on that hill huh?
> 
> I guess then depending on where one stood the words on the wooden sign that was placed on the cross would have differed too and each recorded what they had read.
> 
> ...



Wow.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 31, 2013)

bullethead said:


> According to Roman practices the crucified do not get to call the shots on what happens.
> The timeline of death does not make sense.
> The timeline of death and burial does not go along with Jewish tradition.
> The dead were usually left for the birds and animals to prey on.
> On most accounts the story of Jesus' crucifixion went against the norm for other crucifixions.



Careful there brother.  You might be getting close to an epiphany.   You gonna keep on stumbling around till you mess around and step right dab in the middle of the truth.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 31, 2013)

Israel said:


> Sometimes I wonder what experiences some of us have had with pain, I mean, I don't mean to diminish anyone's experience, I know some of you have battled terribly deep experiences of it.
> But, I am nevertheless inclined to believe there remain some who have not experienced the singular focus pain is able to engender in a man, be it psychic, physical, emotional...spiritual.
> We are well aware of what Jesus endured of men, but...what of the spiritual tauntings, the flood of harpielike demons seeking to cloud the heavens above him, the screeching of demons delighting in their assumed triumph, the howling by the prince of the power of the air   "ha, you've gone too far this time...you're mine now...all mine...blasphemer...son of God...ha...you will die like a man, and all men are mine...there is no such thing as salvation (if you don't know the devil never plays "fair"...and will lie to your face in your tears, in your agony...with glee...)
> He couldn't budge Jesus.
> ...





Israel said:


> Oh, yeah, I almost forgot one important thing:
> 
> Mat_26:53  Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
> 
> ...




What should one make of this if they no longer believe in angels and demons?


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## BT Charlie (Dec 31, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Wow.



Indeed.  

I re-read Hummerpoo's Post No. 68 and consider it wisdom manifest.  A personal limitation imposed to stay dry and apart from the stained tide of sin... .

Others have come about it differently, too.

Some read the deniers' posts and see "the" thief on the cross, meaning the one who feared the Lord, who called on Jesus for salvation, and joined Christ in paradise the evening they both died.  The hope eternally springs forth that Jesus has the power to reach into the final seconds of any life and save a lost soul.  I believe that.    

Others see the second thief, who refused to confess his inequities and crimes, or the justness of his deserved punishment.  Unrepentant, with no fear of the Lord, he demanded Christ save Himself and the rest of them who were in the soup together, if Christ was truly who Christ said He is.  This guy merely sought to preserve his flesh, without a true accounting of himself.  Christ did not even acknowledge that guy.  Silence.

I hear Christ's deafening silence in the internet apostasy in this thread.

Our mature and wise ones say the thieves' appointment is not with any of us.  As sure as the sun will set, each knee will bend in judgment before Jesus.  Every tongue will confess Him who has been here mocked and scorned -- still, by the very world to whom He alone offers salvation.

Who are we to judge the world, the wise one asks?

Yes, these wise ones instruct that we offer today's internet thieves the space and liberty to gain a fear of the Lord, which is a beginning.  These wise ones themselves are dead to offense, in Christ.  

The wise ones see the weapons of the little big men who've come here to deny the Lord. Yet the wise ones do not fear or tremble. They are not provoked to anger. They do not let anyone see them sweat.  The richochets of hate do not harm them; they do not fear such mortal or satanic weapons.  The Lord has won the battle these wise ones now fight.  The power is in Him.  Fear not...

Alone last night, I heard a snivel.  But they're shooting at us, hoss.  Let me take off just one ear....  Forward progress cannot occur without some friction, perhaps.

These wise ones worship an immense, incomprehensible God who does not ask any to sin in response to little big men's hatred and deceit.  These wise ones love...they are patient, kind, and do not boast.  

Wine and bread, they provide. And the clock ticks down, ever down, to judgment day for us thieves.  

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, indeed.

Forgive us Father. We know not what we do.  I lay down my rebellion, misguided and cloaked as defense of my faith.  You are the power.  May Your will be done here on earth as in heaven.  And forgive these others, as they surely know not what they do.


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## 04ctd (Dec 31, 2013)

BHead, here is another reason to suspect that His crucifixion was DIFFERENT...another eye witness:

Luke 23 
47 So when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God, saying, “Certainly this was a righteous Man!”




bullethead said:


> LOTS of Marys on that hill huh?



Yes, if you are serious about learning, a good study Bible will list several different Mary's and define each one's actions.

http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/questions/yq2/yq297.html



bullethead said:


> Did Jesus die inside or outside of Jerusalem? Inside of town or outside of town?



Bhead,
please read this breif post over here:
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=771573
You will have to talk to a Messianic Jew who has actually lived in Jerusaulem to get all the details ironed out, but the important part is that a Lamb or Goat could not pay for our Sins at the Passover.

so one Lamb, unblemished, unstained by sin, born of a virgin, came to earth to pay for our sins.  

And if you do the research, you will find the highly ritualistic Jews had a "procedure" for the Passover Lamb to be penned XX number of days, to be sacrificied at XX hour exactly.

and if you talk to a Jew who knows these times, and the New Testament, he will be able to convice you, that Jesus was penned and sacrificed at the correct times for the Passover Lamb sacrifice.

The OT  prophecy is always fulfilled in the NT...and that convergence is more important than the divergence in the eyewitness story from thier different perspectives.




BT Charlie said:


> Indeed.
> 
> The wise ones see the weapons of the little big men who've come here to deny the Lord. Yet the wise ones do not fear or tremble. They are not provoked to anger. They do not let anyone see them sweat.  The richochets of hate do not harm them; they do not fear such mortal or satanic weapons.  The Lord has won the battle these wise ones now fight.  The power is in Him.  Fear not...
> 
> And forgive these others, as they surely know not what they do  .



Indeed.....but if a brother truly thirsts for knowledge for the right reason, they usually try to help.

internet squabbles are NOT my thing, but I keep a pocket New Testament on my desk, and read it on breaks.

I have been grinding over Luke 23 for the last week, reading & re-reading it, so I offered the above.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 31, 2013)

04ctd said:


> Indeed.....but if a brother truly thirsts for knowledge for the right reason, they usually try to help.
> 
> internet squabbles are NOT my thing, but I keep a pocket New Testament on my desk, and read it on breaks.
> 
> I have been grinding over Luke 23 for the last week, reading & re-reading it, so I offered the above.



You are wise indeed; may our Lord richly bless you in this new year and may your seeds bear much fruit here.  You are one of the mighty in faith, wise and mature, who can absorb the acid of the little big men and hand them bread and wine, bread and wine, bread and, well, you get the point.

I get stung and ponder feeding evil for evil, lead and copper, not bread and wine.  I am a hypocrit. A draw-bridge Christian. I want Christ's salvation for me, but fiercely think thoughts that would lift the bridge to deprive  a select sum certain His mercy and grace.  This wretched flesh never ceases.

Never let my comments interfere with witness and good discussion.  Blessings brother.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 31, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> You are wise indeed; may our Lord richly bless you in this new year and may your seeds bear much fruit here.  You are one of the mighty in faith, wise and mature, who can absorb the acid of the little big men and hand them bread and wine, bread and wine, bread and, well, you get the point.
> 
> I get stung and ponder feeding evil for evil, lead and copper, not bread and wine.  I am a hypocrit. A draw-bridge Christian. I want Christ's salvation for me, but fiercely think thoughts that would lift the bridge to deprive  a select sum certain His mercy and grace.  This wretched flesh never ceases.
> Never let my comments interfere with witness and good discussion.  Blessings brother.



I think I'd feel very comfortable walking along side you.
. Thanks brother.
.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 31, 2013)

Thank you, Ronnie.  Let's go fishing ... Big brim and bass?

Happy New Year!


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2014)

BT Charlie said:


> Thank you, Ronnie.  Let's go fishing ... Big brim and bass?
> 
> Happy New Year!



Happy New Year. I would like to say you and Ronnie are well respected as are many more on this forum. I can see a bit of humbleness and meekness in the both of you. You can both admit some of your beliefs might be wrong.  Jesus is the only way and none of can admit that there is any other way.
When you feel you have come across with a wrong response, you can admit you are wrong.
We're all in this Biblical learning  tank together. 
I do miss Mountain Woman, she kept me grounded. I guess she has moved on and I hope she is doing well.


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## 04ctd (Jan 1, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I do miss Mountain Woman, she kept me grounded. I guess she has moved on and I hope she is doing well.



yes, i loved her point of view. 



Ronnie T said:


> I think I'd feel very comfortable walking along side you.
> . Thanks brother.
> .



Ronnie, why the period after every post?
agreed, BT, you sound like are doing well.
If you don't keep an eye on your flesh, you won't know when it is sneaking back into your decision making process.



BT Charlie said:


> Thank you, Ronnie.  Let's go fishing ... Big brim and bass?
> 
> Happy New Year!



rumor is Ronnie still needs help replacing the carpet in the bass boat....


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## Israel (Jan 1, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> What should one make of this if they no longer believe in angels and demons?


Then I would simply assume that such a one considers themselves wiser than He who spoke of them.
But as to what "I think" someone _should _make of anything is an invitation to try to give them their reason for being.
If it is to know, it will be known.


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## Israel (Jan 1, 2014)

BT Charlie said:


> Indeed.
> 
> I re-read Hummerpoo's Post No. 68 and consider it wisdom manifest.  A personal limitation imposed to stay dry and apart from the stained tide of sin... .
> 
> ...



Discovering I spent 95% of my time trying to cover my tracks for the things I say and do in the other 5%...(ok...maybe 97/3...99/1), that then led to chastenings... that then led to 100% devotion (my only pure devotion I can point to) to deliverance from their pains, has caused me to consider...is there a better way?
Is there anything I can do about that 1-5% that will not leave me trying to worm my way out the other 95-99% of the time?
I was surprised to discover the 1-5% was not the issue up for improving...it was the seeking to cover my tracks that was the invite to scourgings.
Your simple but profound repentance exposes me, comforts me, encourages me, _helps_ me in ways I can't explain.
And I am convinced...always changes the atmosphere above us all...for when one refuses to succumb to the very comfortable invitation to justify themselves...we all experience the truth that the heavens have been cleansed by the sacrifice of One.
It's to our wonderment how repentance, which by the world is seen as admission of defeat, but...by the Lord is linked to zealousness.
I am amazed at the zeal placed in you.


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## M80 (Jan 1, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Oh me too!
> I know a lot people in here scoff at me and my ways but this has not been a week long experiment. This has been a life long quest. I decided to gather and compare everything I possibly could to enhance my religious beliefs. It turned out to have the exact opposite effect.



In my very humble opinion for I am a very simple man. Mans wisdom isn't important. I'm not saying we shouldn't study. The bible says let all men be liers but god the truth. The bible teaches us we must come to him as a child. That is that child like faith. Either we believe the bible as the inspired word of god or we don't. If one dosnt believe the bible is the word of god we can give every example or scripture we can give and it will not do any good. We must stand on the word of god believing it all. Don't get caught up in diagnosing everything about Gods word to prove it. He gave a what we need and it's either believe it or not. The devil is the author of confusion, not The Lord. He wants people to believe the word dosnt add up but by faith, I believe. 

Also my friend if you have never been born again you are spiritually blind and can not understand the bible. Although many scholars study the bible and dissect it, they can never understand it. When we are lost we are like a blind man that can't see. Although we can try to tell the blind how beutiful the sun set is or the fall leaves on the trees. They will never see or understand, but when my savior washed away my sins with his precious blood that he shed on Calvery and saved my soul I could finally see what everyone else that was saved was talking about. Remember, Jesus said unless you come to me as a child.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 1, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> In my very humble opinion for I am a very simple man. Mans wisdom isn't important. I'm not saying we shouldn't study. The bible says let all men be liers but god the truth. The bible teaches us we must come to him as a child. That is that child like faith. Either we believe the bible as the inspired word of god or we don't. If one dosnt believe the bible is the word of god we can give every example or scripture we can give and it will not do any good. We must stand on the word of god believing it all. Don't get caught up in diagnosing everything about Gods word to prove it. He gave a what we need and it's either believe it or not. The devil is the author of confusion, not The Lord. He wants people to believe the word dosnt add up but by faith, I believe.
> 
> Also my friend if you have never been born again you are spiritually blind and can not understand the bible. Although many scholars study the bible and dissect it, they can never understand it. When we are lost we are like a blind man that can't see. Although we can try to tell the blind how beutiful the sun set is or the fall leaves on the trees. They will never see or understand, but when my savior washed away my sins with his precious blood that he shed on Calvery and saved my soul I could finally see what everyone else that was saved was talking about. Remember, Jesus said unless you come to me as a child.



Right. The history of everything is the history of staleness and the rancid. The study of the devine and His people combined with decipleship, a history, is the study of a events and concerns that are always forward looking.

 Perhaps this permit to see the human condition decades, even thousands of yrs ahead and this forward looking defines the present. The present is not the accumulation of the past, it is the point where man lives in union with his creator. From such a place, such a point in time, man is truely able to share with those of the past and the future in the present. Thus the history of faith appreciated by the faithful is timeless, yet the history of everythings is the history of dead things.

Perhaps, maybe, this is the thing about the difference between what we see before and what we see after the sting of death is no longer our shame?

 In my case I had to stop hunting the macro, that it would stick and fit to my being and instead  I just said, " Jesus please come into my heart." The latter was a more natural fit, than all the worry of histories and accounts in my brain.


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## bullethead (Jan 1, 2014)

Guys I do appreciate the time you have spent with your replies. But I was hoping to get more in depth. Being this is in the spiritual forum I cannot really get into the specifics without hearing the usual responses so I will bow out now while it is still civil.
Thanks and Happy New Year


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## gordon 2 (Jan 1, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Guys I do appreciate the time you have spent with your replies. But I was hoping to get more in depth. Being this is in the spiritual forum I cannot really get into the specifics without hearing the usual responses so I will bow out now while it is still civil.
> Thanks and Happy New Year





James 3:17

But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.


Deuteronomy 30:6

King James Version (KJV)


6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.




Ezekiel 2:1-2

King James Version (KJV)


2 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee.

2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.


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## bullethead (Jan 1, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> James 3:17
> 
> But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.



Yes, great example of what I was talking about.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 1, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Yes, great example of what I was talking about.



Who started this tread? Was he someone wanting to know on differences in emphysis in the gospels?



Eze 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 

Eze 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Who started this tread? Was he someone wanting to know on differences in emphysis in the gospels?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And if I don't walk in the statutes of the Holy Spirit and keep Gods judgements, and do them? 
I try to feel this. I try to see this in other brothers. 
Verses like these make me doubt myself and fellow brothers. I hate that I do this. I feel guilty for doing this. I get chastised for doing this. 
Why if the Holy Spirit takes control, even to the point of giving us a new heart and spirit, do we still sin?


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## Mako22 (Jan 2, 2014)

This thread is another fine example of religious no it nothings debating nothing.


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## Israel (Jan 2, 2014)

Woodsman69 said:


> This thread is another fine example of religious no it nothings debating nothing.



I don't find many debating at all. Maybe a few, even a very few...maybe even none.
But, if you're here to help, I'm not sure what we are _all _trying to lift, but I've seen Jesus in several...being lifted up.


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## Israel (Jan 2, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> And if I don't walk in the statutes of the Holy Spirit and keep Gods judgements, and do them?
> I try to feel this. I try to see this in other brothers.
> Verses like these make me doubt myself and fellow brothers. I hate that I do this. I feel guilty for doing this. I get chastised for doing this.
> Why if the Holy Spirit takes control, even to the point of giving us a new heart and spirit, do we still sin?



Things done in the simplicity of faith, if they are done in such a manner at all, will not come with a loud trumpet display. Obedience, though a great help to the body, is only ministered in the spirit, by faith.
Just as no one is given to see all the struggles in you, and earth claimed for the Lord, so you may, I may, have to wait on the Lord to see and judge rightly.
When in the Lord's time, things foreign to us, even once appearing as disobedience to us...may even be revealed in and through another...when we say..."ahhh, now I see...that brother I once disdained has done some conquering of himself in the Lord's name...and I didn't see it...because it was a battle I was in, and the enemy had me all turned around."
What is conquered through a man...must first be conquered, in a man.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 2, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> And if I don't walk in the statutes of the Holy Spirit and keep Gods judgements, and do them?
> I try to feel this. I try to see this in other brothers.
> Verses like these make me doubt myself and fellow brothers. I hate that I do this. I feel guilty for doing this. I get chastised for doing this.
> Why if the Holy Spirit takes control, even to the point of giving us a new heart and spirit, do we still sin?



Because the Holy Spirit does not take control, maybe. Although the Holy Spirit (God) causes to walk in His statutes it is not a one time done deal. This causeing is progressive maybe and thus the importance of faith or relationship. Different traditions have all kinds of names for this process whereby the heart and spirit of man progressively walks in tandem with the heart and spirit of our Lord.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Because the Holy Spirit does not take control, maybe. Although the Holy Spirit (God) causes to walk in His statutes it is not a one time done deal. This causeing is progressive maybe and thus the importance of faith or relationship. Different traditions have all kinds of names for this process whereby the heart and spirit of man progressively walks in tandem with the heart and spirit of our Lord.



I'm glad to hear that it is progressive. I was beginning to think I was missing in those Holy Spirit attributes. 
My New Year's resolution will be to develop this new heart & spirit that I have already received.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 2, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm glad to hear that it is progressive. I was beginning to think I was missing in those Holy Spirit attributes.
> My New Year's resolution will be to develop this new heart & spirit that I have already received.



Great! Remember to check with other saints ( once in a while) and the Holy Spirit (often). All saints will fellowship and the Holy Spirit will teach.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 2, 2014)

Woodsman69 said:


> This thread is another fine example of religious no it nothings debating nothing.



I am facinated in your ideas on "religious no it nothings"  and"nothing". Can you elaborate? I see that you have used "nothing" alot when describing some  even well known christians, ( from your tread history). Again can you explain your "Nothings".

I understand you are saved? Is this correct?


----------



## 04ctd (Jan 2, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Although the Holy Spirit (God) causes us to walk in His statutes it is not a one time done deal.



in the Bible, the devil went up to God three times, and he had to ASK God to drop His protection each time, and each time, Job had a choice:
praise God, or condemn God.

Job 2 
9 Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast to your integrity? Curse God and die!”

each time Job, made a choice, and each day, we must make a choice. our trials on earth won't end until "it is finished" and we are boxed up & buried deep.

we are to constantly glorify & honor God every day, and the way we do that is facing new battles every day, with our focus on God.  Daily, we are too:
Matthew 5:16 
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.





Bhead, i think we did answer your questions:
-Jesus did have enough "God" in Him to physically leave the physical body and let it die.
-the time period matches the Passover Lamb
-RonnieT said the differences came from the different people at different vantage points, and taken together, they give the WHOLE picture of how each person viewed the event.


it is finished...means differents things:
-Jesus' earthly suffering is done.
-Jesus' payment for our sins is complete
-on and on as referenced above (by Mr. Art, I believe)

IDK, but i dont see "nothing"

a friend gave me ~7000 songs for Christmas, as I was deleting some of them, it had one on there that struck me as fitting for this thread:

_You know the way we run our lives, it makes no sense to me
 I don't know about yourself or what you plan to be
 When we gamble with our time we choose our destiny_

what is your destiny, brother?


i fall very short, in my flesh, but this is what I wish i could do:
Romans 15:6 
that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2014)

Woodsman69 said:


> This thread is another fine example of religious no it nothings debating nothing.



Why not show us what you are saying in a positive way? Can you share some insight that might encourage us to look into your feelings or beliefs?
Show someone specifically why you disagree with their responce.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jan 2, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why not show us what you are saying in a positive way? Can you share some insight that might encourage us to look into your feelings or beliefs?
> Show someone specifically why you disagree with their responce.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 2, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


>




I was thinking of exploring Romans chapter 2. The more the merrier. Side line popcorn bombers welcome.

Wait why is it that when we judge others, we condemn ourselves? Do you know?


----------



## Israel (Jan 3, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> I was thinking of exploring Romans chapter 2. The more the merrier. Side line popcorn bombers welcome.
> 
> Wait why is it that when we judge others, we condemn ourselves? Do you know?


Eyeness.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 3, 2014)

Israel said:


> Eyeness.



I see.


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## Scotsman (Jan 7, 2014)

This is an interesting thread. I pray that you are all well. 

I have often thought about our Lord and Savior's last words on the cross and the slight differences in how it was recorded in the gospels.

In no way do I think that God turned his back on his only begotten Son. He was sent here as an example and a hope and Savior(Emmanuel - God with us) and a sacrifice, the true Passover Lamb. God knew this, it was His plan. Yashua knew this.

Our Lord was a teacher, constantly teaching, and praying, even on the cross. 

Food for thought.
It is written:
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Thus begins the words of Psalm 22. A Psalm of David. 
Read it.

Throughout this Psalm there is an accurate description of Christ on the cross. The last line of the Psalm is written in verse 31:  "They shall come, and shall declare His righteousness unto a People that shall be born, That He hath done this."

That he hath done this = It is finished.

I believe He was actually quoting the 22nd Psalm. Part of it for certain, and maybe all of it based on the various accounts.


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## BT Charlie (Jan 7, 2014)

Scotsman said:


> This is an interesting thread. I pray that you are all well.
> 
> I have often thought about our Lord and Savior's last words on the cross and the slight differences in how it was recorded in the gospels.
> 
> ...




Amen.  Thank you.


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## kmh1031 (Jan 10, 2014)

*My God, why have you forsaken me*

Interesting, thought process...

Did Jesus’ words “my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” indicate a lack of faith on his part? No. While we cannot be sure of Jesus’ motives for saying this, his words may indicate that Jesus recognized that God had taken His protection away so that His Son’s integrity could be fully tested. 
It is also possible that Jesus said this because he wanted to fulfill what Psalm 22:1 foretold regarding him.—Matt. 27:46.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 11, 2014)

kmh1031 said:


> Interesting, thought process...
> 
> Did Jesus’ words “my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” indicate a lack of faith on his part? No. While we cannot be sure of Jesus’ motives for saying this, his words may indicate that Jesus recognized that God had taken His protection away so that His Son’s integrity could be fully tested.
> It is also possible that Jesus said this because he wanted to fulfill what Psalm 22:1 foretold regarding him.—Matt. 27:46.



No matter what you know or think or how you think you will react, when it comes down to being hung on a cross, who knows how one will react?
Jesus was the Son of God but he came to the earth as a man. He felt the same way you or I would right before an execution. 
If I had terminal cancer, I would go though bouts of denial, fear, anger and would assume Jesus did too as a human. Eventually he accepted his death and placed his trust and faith in his Father as I would eventually do if stricken with terminal cancer. 
Part of Jesus coming to earth was to feel everything we as humans feel. Death and early fear was part of this followed by trust, faith, and peace. 
Jesus just did all of the man steps faster than us. Perhaps he had more help or more intervention than us.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 11, 2014)

The fear of death is based upon the unknown.  Even with religious faith, no one really KNOWS exactly what they will experience during death and immediately after death.

Did Jesus experience this fear of the unknown?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 11, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> The fear of death is based upon the unknown.  Even with religious faith, no one really KNOWS exactly what they will experience during death and immediately after death.
> 
> Did Jesus experience this fear of the unknown?



Most Christians KNOW beyond a shadow of doubt that they will go to Heaven when they die yet fear is still a human trait. This is related to our other discussion about Jesus being a man. He had to be a man to perform the sacrifice, regardless of his deity.
I believe Jesus felt fear, temptations, and urges the we feel as humans. He just had more help to overcome from his Father. 

Did Jesus have stress brought on from the fear of his torture & death?
hematidrosis:
Hematidrosis (also called hematohidrosis) is a very rare condition in which a human sweats blood.
It may occur when a person is suffering extreme levels of stress, for example, facing his or her own death. Several historical references have been described; notably by Leonardo da Vinci: describing a soldier who sweated blood before battle, men unexpectedly given a death sentence, as well as descriptions in the Bible, that Jesus experienced hematidrosis when He was praying in the garden of Gethsemane (Luke 22:43-44).
hematidrosis


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## kmh1031 (Jan 12, 2014)

*After death, thoughts..*

well, all one has to do is read:
Ecc 9:5
Ps 146:3& 4
Ex 18:4
and others to see what happens after death,


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 15, 2014)

kmh1031 said:


> well, all one has to do is read:
> Ecc 9:5
> Ps 146:3& 4
> Ex 18:4
> and others to see what happens after death,



Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

The belief that God's children will live forever and everyone else will die when they die. I've thought about that and looking at He!! in different meanings or concepts.


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