# Why preach to an Atheist??



## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 5, 2011)

What gives??  If someone does NOT believe in god, why do believers in some form of religion, come on here and tell those who don't believe that they are bound for warmer climates when they croak??  At what point do believers think that an Atheist gives 2 cents about what you believe and / or think?   I realize GA is basically the buckle in the bible belt but give me a break!!  Most Atheists I know don't tell everyone else they are wasting their time believing in a book, why waste an Atheists time by telling them something that you believe in.  

Honestly, I rarely even mention anything in regards to religion but it gets annoying after a while with all the bible thumpers our there pushing their religion on everyone.  I even get people while I am working trying to push their religious propaganda on me and co-workers or even individuals knocking on my door or leaving trash (pamphlets) on my doorstep.  Pretty bad to see so much of it on a daily basis.


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## JFS (Mar 5, 2011)

In fairness, if you truly believe the infidels are bound for post-mortem tropics then it is an act of kindness to try and change their destination.  I just wish more of them were open to a reciprocal discussion about the archaic notions they harbor.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 6, 2011)

JFS said:


> In fairness, if you truly believe the infidels are bound for post-mortem tropics then it is an act of kindness to try and change their destination.  I just wish more of them were open to a reciprocal discussion about the archaic notions they harbor.



And I'm feeling the kindness and love when crbrumbelow tries to steer me back on the righteous path.


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## vowell462 (Mar 6, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> And I'm feeling the kindness and love when crbrumbelow tries to steer me back on the righteous path.



Yea. Wow. I dont even know what to say to his post. Way out there....


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## DS7418 (Mar 6, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER >> If you can't out smart a bible thumper with common sense and real logic,, then your not much of a Atheist..LOL


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 6, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> What gives??  If someone does NOT believe in god, why do believers in some form of religion, come on here and tell those who don't believe that they are bound for warmer climates when they croak??  At what point do believers think that an Atheist gives 2 cents about what you believe and / or think?   I realize GA is basically the buckle in the bible belt but give me a break!!  Most Atheists I know don't tell everyone else they are wasting their time believing in a book, why waste an Atheists time by telling them something that you believe in.
> 
> Honestly, I rarely even mention anything in regards to religion but it gets annoying after a while with all the bible thumpers our there pushing their religion on everyone.  I even get people while I am working trying to push their religious propaganda on me and co-workers or even individuals knocking on my door or leaving trash (pamphlets) on my doorstep.  Pretty bad to see so much of it on a daily basis.


 Just courious, I don't want to derail the thread but this doesn't really need its own thread. You mentioned being approached by some form of religions. Got me thinking, As atheist, are there any religions besides Christians who try to convert you guys? I think of the verses in the bible "you travel over land and sea trying to convert". Wondering if this could be applied to anyone but Christians?


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## Achilles Return (Mar 6, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> You guys act like a christian cant get mad.  Surely youre not that dumb.  You atheists are supposed to know it all.  If you did you would have memorized the Bible and know what scripture I am refering to in your post.  I am not preaching to you bunch of jerks on here anymore.
> 
> Ham you WOULD NOT be so bold in person because I do not put up with smart alecks like you for too long.



I'm exactly the same on the internet as I am in person, and you're free to come on down to the 'boro to talk to me anytime. 

And if you think atheists are supposed to 'know it all', you haven't been reading a word we've been typing.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 6, 2011)

Some of the arguments and questions yall pose are really good and worth an answer at times, so I pop in from time to time and say my peace.  Much like many of you do in the other Judeo-Christian and other faith forums.

But to answer the question, IMO, it is a matter of "who has the cure for cancer", in this case, the wages of sin.  Since I truly believe in the cure (Christ, the cross and the resurrection), why would I keep it to myself?  Wouldn't you consider the one with the cure _for cancer_ a fool for keeping it to himself?  We may differ on "who really has the cure", or "does a cure really exist, or is needed at all", but that is for another thread, and I suppose this is what we talk about ad nauseum. But for a sin cure, you bet... I would want all to gain the benifit, in this life and for all eternity.

Persistence?
Yes, to some I know in person I am very persistent, if they continue to ask questions.  If they close the door, that is their free will decision, and I will ask God to bring His love and "cure" however He wishes.

While we both go back and fourth at times and get under each others skin, it is not my intention to be here just for arguments sake, but for reaching out to both the poster, and those who may read.  

Peace.


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## JFS (Mar 6, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> And I'm feeling the kindness and love when crbrumbelow tries to steer me back on the righteous path.



There is no excuse for just berating people.  But I enjoy discussing the big questions with people who have different views when they are thoughtful and not uninformed or ill tempered.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 6, 2011)

DS7418 said:


> 11P&YBOWHUNTER >> If you can't out smart a bible thumper with common sense and real logic,, then your not much of a Atheist..LOL



I think common sense is on my side here pal!   I don't care if we evolved or if there really is such thing as a god.  I can surely bet I am not going to put all my eggs in one basket and waste part of my life praying for anything or wasting my money on a corrupt church when that time and money can be better spent doing things I enjoy.  I realize most bible thumpers are brain washed and think that they need to pray like there is no tomorrow but you all don't need to try to convince non believers of this.  

People make choices every day from the moment you wake up to the moment you go back to sleep.  I CHOOSE to leave others alone and not try to convince bible thumpers that their wasting their time because...I don't care if you believe in something like a higher being or not.   It is nor my place to tell you your wrong or right.  You made that decision on your own.  

It would JUST be nice once and a while for people on a mission to save non believers to give it a rest and go spend some valuable time with their families.   

Now, if that's not common sense then maybe you need some form of medication to bring you back to earth.


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## pnome (Mar 6, 2011)

Relevant


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## StriperAddict (Mar 6, 2011)

pnome said:


> Relevant



He said it better than I just did.

Thanks for the clip.  I mean it.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 7, 2011)

I got two PM's about this thread...one telling me they agree with me and what I am talking about and one telling me they don't agree with me.  I thank both for the PM's but my opinion is solely mine.  others can agree or disagree, just as they can "x" out of this thread and move onto another. 

I understand that some folks believe that atheists go out of their way to be retalitory towards those who do believe.  Yes, there might be a select few, but i would be willing to bet there are far more folks out ther that believe and try to sway non believers to the point of menacing.  I could care less if you believe in tooth faries, your bible, skunk apes, bigfoot's, ghosts, reincarnation or whatever else you believe in.  I personally might not agree but i keep my personal reservations to myself...until someone pushes me to the point where I decide enough is enough.  

I guess this is my vent thread, and I could go on forever, but dont want to upset the holy rollers or bible thumpers on here to the point there is a gathering of folks in my front yard one of these evenings, trying to do the right thing and save my soul.  I am not asking for someone to save me, and do not wish for someone to waste my time and theirs with the notion that I am going to miraculously find god or whatever.  It is simply not going to happen.  I am simply to intelligent or dumb,...depending on how you view religion.  


I hope everyone has a good week and is safe.  People are not exactly being safe while driving lately and this evening was testimonial evidence of it.  Hang up the phone and drive....and leave the alcohol at home.


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## georgiabow (Mar 12, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> What gives??  If someone does NOT believe in god, why do believers in some form of religion, come on here and tell those who don't believe that they are bound for warmer climates when they croak??  At what point do believers think that an Atheist gives 2 cents about what you believe and / or think?   I realize GA is basically the buckle in the bible belt but give me a break!!  Most Atheists I know don't tell everyone else they are wasting their time believing in a book, why waste an Atheists time by telling them something that you believe in.
> 
> Honestly, I rarely even mention anything in regards to religion but it gets annoying after a while with all the bible thumpers our there pushing their religion on everyone.  I even get people while I am working trying to push their religious propaganda on me and co-workers or even individuals knocking on my door or leaving trash (pamphlets) on my doorstep.  Pretty bad to see so much of it on a daily basis.



kinda similar to one of the things that really gets to me. example - 

i ran into an old friend of mine a couple weeks ago, who i hadnt spoken to in 10+ years. he is a very religious man now. he looked at me and said "so, do you believe in a higher power?", to which i said "no, i do not". he said "so you believe there was just a bang and it was all here?".

his quick assumption as to what he thinks i believe, caused me to roll up my window, and leave without saying a word. if he would have said "so what exactly are your beliefs?", then i would have stayed around for a brief, but very in depth conversation. his assumption told me a lot about his capabilities in any potential debate that could have ensued.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 12, 2011)

georgiabow said:


> kinda similar to one of the things that really gets to me. example -
> 
> i ran into an old friend of mine a couple weeks ago, who i hadnt spoken to in 10+ years. he is a very religious man now. he looked at me and said "so, do you believe in a higher power?", to which i said "no, i do not". he said "so you believe there was just a bang and it was all here?".
> 
> his quick assumption as to what he thinks i believe, caused me to roll up my window, and leave without saying a word. if he would have said "so what exactly are your beliefs?", then i would have stayed around for a brief, but very in depth conversation. his assumption told me a lot about his capabilities in any potential debate that could have ensued.


 
Those of us on the side of belief in God are going to mess up many times, no question about it.  It has been my experience that when I was without belief in God, there were some that loved me in spite of myself, who tried... and failed.  Then there were some, like in your experience here, who seemed like they couldn't care less, just shooting for an attendance record at their church, or whatever.  Bottom line, I politely asked both to leave.  But I have no doubt that those who loved me continued to pray for me, and I'm thankful that those prayers were answered.
Sorry if I went off topic, but love is the reason why believers try to reach others, as was said before.


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## 1handkneehigh (Mar 13, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Those of us on the side of belief in God are going to mess up many times, no question about it.  It has been my experience that when I was without belief in God, there were some that loved me in spite of myself, who tried... and failed.  Then there were some, like in your experience here, who seemed like they couldn't care less, just shooting for an attendance record at their church, or whatever.  Bottom line, I politely asked both to leave.  But I have no doubt that those who loved me continued to pray for me, and I'm thankful that those prayers were answered.
> Sorry if I went off topic, but love is the reason why believers try to reach others, as was said before.



Your motive is just like the rest of the christians, your methods might be different.  First if you don't succeed with love then send in the cavalry.  Either way it's the same.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 13, 2011)

1handkneehigh said:


> Your motive is just like the rest of the christians, your methods might be different. First if you don't succeed with love then send in the cavalry. Either way it's the same.


 
Did I suggest I would bombard someone who asked me to leave with "sending in the Cavalry"?  You missed my point if so....


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## CAL (Mar 13, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> What gives??  If someone does NOT believe in god, why do believers in some form of religion, come on here and tell those who don't believe that they are bound for warmer climates when they croak??  At what point do believers think that an Atheist gives 2 cents about what you believe and / or think?   I realize GA is basically the buckle in the bible belt but give me a break!!  Most Atheists I know don't tell everyone else they are wasting their time believing in a book, why waste an Atheists time by telling them something that you believe in.
> 
> Honestly, I rarely even mention anything in regards to religion but it gets annoying after a while with all the bible thumpers our there pushing their religion on everyone.  I even get people while I am working trying to push their religious propaganda on me and co-workers or even individuals knocking on my door or leaving trash (pamphlets) on my doorstep.  Pretty bad to see so much of it on a daily basis.



Answer is very simple.I believe the Bible says to "Plant a seed".The planter has relieved his self from obligation after so being.It is up to the individual to either water that seed and nurture that seed or just let it die.I never turn anyone away that wishes to talk about the Lord.If there is an eternity and I really believe there is,I plan on being there.Hope I see you there too.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 13, 2011)

CAL said:


> Answer is very simple.I believe the Bible says to "Plant a seed".The planter has relieved his self from obligation after so being.It is up to the individual to either water that seed and nurture that seed or just let it die.I never turn anyone away that wishes to talk about the Lord.If there is an eternity and I really believe there is,I plan on being there.Hope I see you there too.



Sorry, I will be worm food, just like everyone else.


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## CAL (Mar 13, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> Sorry, I will be worm food, just like everyone else.



Man P&Y,Ya hit the nail right dead on the head.I gonna be worm food too.That is ever thing but my old spirit.See,I believe our bodies are just houses the Lord has given us to live in here on earth.When this ole body dies,and today i don't feel like it will be too long off,I believe my spirit will live on in another place.Ya know,we are just spirits!My Bible says I will get a new body,glad of that cause this one here ain't been much count.

Now P&Y,I could along with all my Christian brothers and sisters be totally wrong in mer thinking about all this.I tell ya, I have thought about this,but if I'm wrong I have lost nothing.Just more feed fer them worms.If I am right and you are wrong,ya gonna miss out on er great place to spend eternity.I sho did wanta see ya there with all my Woody's buddies.See we gonna have a big time!Look,don't cha dare jump into anything without testing the water.I just challenge you to take er look at this Christian thing.I ain't gonna say I'm all right but I wish you would just take er look.You ain't got to tell nobody ya doing it either.Later.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 13, 2011)

CAL said:


> Man P&Y,Ya hit the nail right dead on the head.I gonna be worm food too.That is ever thing but my old spirit.See,I believe our bodies are just houses the Lord has given us to live in here on earth.When this ole body dies,and today i don't feel like it will be too long off,I believe my spirit will live on in another place.Ya know,we are just spirits!My Bible says I will get a new body,glad of that cause this one here ain't been much count.
> 
> Now P&Y,I could along with all my Christian brothers and sisters be totally wrong in mer thinking about all this.I tell ya, I have thought about this,but if I'm wrong I have lost nothing.Just more feed fer them worms.If I am right and you are wrong,ya gonna miss out on er great place to spend eternity.I sho did wanta see ya there with all my Woody's buddies.See we gonna have a big time!Look,don't cha dare jump into anything without testing the water.I just challenge you to take er look at this Christian thing.I ain't gonna say I'm all right but I wish you would just take er look.You ain't got to tell nobody ya doing it either.Later.





I bet you will have a great time.  Make sure someone brings the shine, karaoke machine and naked twister.  

I don't wanna waste my precious time praying for anything when I can spend that time hunting, playing kitchen with my little one, shopping with my little one etc etc.


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

1handkneehigh said:


> Your motive is just like the rest of the christians, your methods might be different.  First if you don't succeed with love then send in the cavalry.  Either way it's the same.



love is a shame?


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## CAL (Mar 14, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> playing kitchen with my little one, shopping with my little one etc etc.



Man ya better watch whatcha doing with that beautiful little one cause playing,spending time shopping,being a good daddy and most likely a great husband is all Biblical.Ya just doing what our Lord says you have to do to be a good father.Keep on being a good daddy.You ain't seen yet what kind of rewards that will bring ya.Down tha road will come them grand children next.It just don't get no better when they get here too.Just wait and remember ole CAL said it!


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 14, 2011)

CAL said:


> Man ya better watch whatcha doing with that beautiful little one cause playing,spending time shopping,being a good daddy and most likely a great husband is all Biblical.Ya just doing what our Lord says you have to do to be a good father.



Perhaps it is commanded in the bible but that in no way proves God's existence.  Not to mention...I find it more logical to just flat out love and care about one's own kids already.  If it's done at the behest of the bible, what does that say about the parent?  It's kind of like "Thou shalt not kill"; do you really need a book to tell you that?


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Perhaps it is commanded in the bible but that in no way proves God's existence.  Not to mention...I find it more logical to just flat out love and care about one's own kids already.  If it's done at the behest of the bible, what does that say about the parent?  *It's kind of like "Thou shalt not kill"; do you really need a book to tell you that?*



Ask Joseph Stalin or Adolf Hitler.


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## TTom (Mar 14, 2011)

Hitler had the book Stringmusic he was nominally one of yours.

Started Catholic and advocated Lutheran as well throughout his time in power.

And I call a Godwins law loss on your part. LOL


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## atlashunter (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Ask Joseph Stalin or Adolf Hitler.



Funny how when men do good, God gets credited for it, when they do bad the blame rests squarely on their shoulders because they had "free will".


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## HawgJawl (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Ask Joseph Stalin or Adolf Hitler.



How many Israelites did Moses kill?  Not enemies of the Israelites, but God's Chosen People?  I'm not referring to God killing them for punishment either, I'm speaking specifically of Moses telling the Levites to kill other Israelites completely separate from God's punishment.


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

TTom said:


> Hitler had the book Stringmusic he was nominally one of yours.
> 
> Started Catholic and advocated Lutheran as well throughout his time in power.
> 
> And I call a Godwins law loss on your part. LOL





atlashunter said:


> Funny how when men do good, God gets credited for it, when they do bad the blame rests squarely on their shoulders because they had "free will".





HawgJawl said:


> How many Israelites did Moses kill?  Not enemies of the Israelites, but God's Chosen People?  I'm not referring to God killing them for punishment either, I'm speaking specifically of Moses telling the Levites to kill other Israelites completely separate from God's punishment.



Good night fellas, one little sentence and all this

TTom, just because Hitler had it dont mean he followed it(which he clearly didn not)

Atlas, I didnt design the game, I just play it.

Hawg, I havent done any extensive studies on the OT, so I dont have any answers for you right now. I can say that Moses was a human being who sinned like the rest of us.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Ask Joseph Stalin or Adolf Hitler.



Hitler followed that same book.  Oops!  You don't really want to resort to this.  It's weak.


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## atlashunter (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> TTom, just because Hitler had it dont mean he followed it(which he clearly didn not)



Conversely, there are plenty of people who don't have the bible and don't kill.

Don't you believe that Hitler was created by God and that God knew all the people that he would kill but created him anyway then stood with folded arms and watched the holocaust happen?

This is akin to you seeing someone put a gun to another persons head, pull the trigger, watch them bleed out on the ground, and then you blame it on the gun.




stringmusic said:


> Atlas, I didnt design the game, I just play it.



Ever considered the possibility that men designed the game?




stringmusic said:


> Hawg, I havent done any extensive studies on the OT, so I dont have any answers for you right now. I can say that Moses was a human being who sinned like the rest of us.



Predictable. You could have saved some typing with two words, "Free will".


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## HawgJawl (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I can say that Moses was a human being who sinned like the rest of us.



Thank you.  No one on the other forum will come close to admitting that.  Moses is the next best thing to Jesus to most of them, because Moses wrote that God spoke face-to-face with Moses.


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## stringmusic (Mar 14, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Ever considered the possibility that men designed the game?


Yes






> Predictable. You could have saved some typing with two words, "Free will".


I didnt design the game, I just play it.


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## atlashunter (Mar 14, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I didnt design the game, I just play it.



Like a puppet on a string.


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## CAL (Mar 14, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Perhaps it is commanded in the bible but that in no way proves God's existence.  Not to mention...I find it more logical to just flat out love and care about one's own kids already.  If it's done at the behest of the bible, what does that say about the parent?  It's kind of like "Thou shalt not kill"; do you really need a book to tell you that?



Hey ham,
I ain't trying to prove God's existence to start with.I'm just commenting that 11P&Y is already doing what our Lord says we need to do.He is doing it and just don't know it maybe.I don't need to prove God exist,I already know God exist.
I can look at the seasons of the year,the plants that grow and produce seed to replenish their species,the rain that falls to replenish the water in the earth,the sunshine that keeps us warm and makes things grow,our world that turns on its axis to cause the seasons to change,salmon that travel thousands of miles to spawn and then die,a bear that hibernates all winter without food,birds that migrate hundreds of miles only to return to where they were born,and the list goes on and on and on.If anyone thinks this just happened to happen without the help of a superior power,I can only pray that they will one day wake up before it is too late and miss eternity where Christians are.I intend to be there Brother and I want you there too.I like talking with ya,bet we have many things in common.
Like I have posted many times,I haven't lost anything if I am wrong but if an unbeliever is wrong,he has messed up.He ain't gonna be there!


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## Achilles Return (Mar 14, 2011)

Surely CAL, you can see the foundations for skepticism when everything you just mentioned has a fairly well-worked natural explanation.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 14, 2011)

> Surely Achilles Return, you can see the foundations for faith when everything CAL just mentioned has a intrinsically well-worked intelligent authorship..


 
Fixed it for ya.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 14, 2011)

..Except it doesn't?


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## Achilles Return (Mar 14, 2011)

Viruses, disease-carrying bacteria, and cancer is apparently well-worked intelligent authorship. /sarcasm


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## CAL (Mar 14, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> Surely CAL, you can see the foundations for skepticism when everything you just mentioned has a fairly well-worked natural explanation.



No Sir,I just can't see any skepticism when I look at the whole picture of things.
Here is an example of something so very amazing to me.For many years I have watched pine trees put on a heavy production of pine cones.Knowing as I do that is a sure sign of a pine tree dieing.What is so amazing though is the fact "it takes a pine tree two years to produce a pine cone".This means a pine tree knew two years before it dies that it is going too!Please don't tell me a pine tree thinks cause I know better.Can't one see there is a plan to the theme of things?It just didn't happen.

Been farming all my life and observing things many people don't know and never have seen such as the last paragraph.I wonder how many people knew about a pine tree dieing.

Has anyone ever wondered why some seed fall straight to the ground and others fly through the air with the wind?Why do some animals have multiple births and others just have one and sometimes two.The ones that have multiple births also have high birth death loss.The ones that don't hardly lose a birth.An alligators nest is made up of green material.Know why,it is because the eggs need heat to incubate and that heat comes from green material rotting.Now ya reckon that old alligator just happened to know that.They say an alligator is the closest thing we have living that is connected to the dinosaurs.Just wonder in all the fairly well-worked explanation,where does all of the above fit ?

Do most folks know that when ducks hatch they immediately vacate the nest,so do quail where song birds feed their little ones for days before they leave the nest.Four days after birth a quail can fly!Humming birds migrate to South America and fly across the Gulf of Mexico without feeding,non stop, and here they have to feed every 15 minutes.

I could go on and on and on with these kinds of phenomena.These things just didn't happen.These things are a part of the "great plan"!


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 14, 2011)

CAL said:


> No Sir,I just can't see any skepticism when I look at the whole picture of things.
> Here is an example of something so very amazing to me.For many years I have watched pine trees put on a heavy production of pine cones.Knowing as I do that is a sure sign of a pine tree dieing.What is so amazing though is the fact "it takes a pine tree two years to produce a pine cone".This means a pine tree knew two years before it dies that it is going too!Please don't tell me a pine tree thinks cause I know better.Can't one see there is a plan to the theme of things?It just didn't happen.
> 
> Been farming all my life and observing things many people don't know and never have seen such as the last paragraph.I wonder how many people knew about a pine tree dieing.
> ...


 I enjoy   pondering over stuff like this, if you think of anymore, if you have time, I would appreciate it if you  posted it. By the way, strange as it may sound, I'm always interested in knowing more about posters.  Full time farmer or hobby farmer???


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## Achilles Return (Mar 14, 2011)

CAL said:


> No Sir,I just can't see any skepticism when I look at the whole picture of things.
> Here is an example of something so very amazing to me.For many years I have watched pine trees put on a heavy production of pine cones.Knowing as I do that is a sure sign of a pine tree dieing.What is so amazing though is the fact "it takes a pine tree two years to produce a pine cone".This means a pine tree knew two years before it dies that it is going too!Please don't tell me a pine tree thinks cause I know better.Can't one see there is a plan to the theme of things?It just didn't happen.
> 
> Been farming all my life and observing things many people don't know and never have seen such as the last paragraph.I wonder how many people knew about a pine tree dieing.
> ...



Sorry, CAL, but nothing you've mentioned seems remotely supernatural to me. You're describing natural phenomenon with natural causes.


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## CAL (Mar 14, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> Sorry, CAL, but nothing you've mentioned seems remotely supernatural to me. You're describing natural phenomenon with natural causes.



No Sir,I never said it was supernatural nor did I intend to leave the slightest comment about anything being supernatural.I must have not gotten my meaning across.Sorry,I was just pointing out the "great plan"of things in the grand scheme of things.I was trying to show that all things fit into the great plan and things as I mentioned about different things.These things just didn't happen,something cause them to be where they are and act as they do.
Do you think somewhere down the line of life and alligator just learned how to incubate its eggs.Please explain how this is just a natural phenomenon and a natural cause.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 15, 2011)

Cal, animals care for their young until they reach a certain age, then they push them out of the nest.  I am doing the animal thing...not the biblical thing.  Protect and teach your young to survive and then push them out of the nest.  In my case, when she is 18 and headed to college.


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## CAL (Mar 15, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> I am doing the animal thing...not the biblical thing.  Protect and teach your young to survive and then push them out of the nest.  In my case, when she is 18 and headed to college.



Hey P&Y,you are doing the Biblical thing and just don't realize it!Been there and done all that as the saying goes.Also gonna be er sad day for you and Mom too.Was for me and mine anyway.My youngest turns 40 this year and left at 18,I still ain't forgot it.And you won't forget it either,you will see.But they have to go,that's what Gods plan is for all young.Still don't make it go over any easier either.Blessings to ya!


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

Cal, where you see a great plan the rest of us see natural phenomena with natural explanations. How do all of the now extinct species fit in with the great plan?


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## georgiabow (Mar 15, 2011)

CAL said:


> Hey P&Y,you are doing the Biblical thing and just don't realize it!Been there and done all that as the saying goes.Also gonna be er sad day for you and Mom too.Was for me and mine anyway.My youngest turns 40 this year and left at 18,I still ain't forgot it.And you won't forget it either,you will see.But they have to go,that's what Gods plan is for all young.Still don't make it go over any easier either.Blessings to ya!



i dont think its so much gods plan, as it is just life.

to me, the bible just makes an extremely generalized mess of things. for example.... if you said god was "energy", then in theory you could find god in a lump of coal.


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> Sorry, CAL, but nothing you've mentioned seems remotely supernatural to me. You're describing natural phenomenon with natural causes.



Who/what/when/where did this_ natural _cause come from?


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

georgiabow said:


> i dont think its so much gods plan, as it is just life.
> 
> to me, the bible just makes an extremely generalized mess of things. for example.... if you said god was "energy", then in theory you could find god in a lump of coal.



ok.... God is not energy.


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## bullethead (Mar 15, 2011)

I personally think that it is much easier to get and accept a sense of fulfillment, spirituality and belief of a higher power that has a purpose for everything because it has been taught for people to do so since they were infants. It is a relatively new human concept because it is only a few thousand years old. It is quick and easy to accept something because it is written rather than think outside the box. It is easier to wrap a mind around the story that a being created us in his likeness and put everything here for a reason than it is to realize the amount of time, billions upon hundreds of billions of years, that it took for everything we know or have ever known about to evolve into what it is or was. In a world where we want and get instant gratification, it is much simpler to read a book and go with the majority, rather than comprehend time.

The saying that guys make about "I'd rather believe and if I'm wrong well I'm no worse for wear, but if I'm right I'll be going to heaven..." is a good one, but why limit yourself? If that is your way to cover all the bases then it would be wise to practice ALL the religions because even within Christianity there are differences about how you get to heaven. For everyone that "knows" their religion is the right one, there is someone else that says the same thing about theirs.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 15, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> Viruses, disease-carrying bacteria, and cancer is apparently well-worked intelligent authorship. /sarcasm


Sans sarcasm, good point.
I haven't forgotten that the first couple weren't puppets on a string, they made choices that got sin started into the mix.  And if sin didn't have consequences then evil would be even more rampant than it is now.  But it's not up to me to convince anyone that.  For many, issues of morality, sin and evil are "relative", so ... back to square one.  

Maybe a better question is: can a loving God allow His creation to "go astray" for a time, and make a plan to have them back... _forever_?  

Personally speaking, my own choices got me in trouble plenty of times, and even now with belief in forgiveness I'm still free to go down a wrong path, like Adam.  The difference is I try to choose not to b/c of what love/the cross has done for me. I'm still a sinner saved by grace, and would have it no other way.


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Sans sarcasm, good point.
> I haven't forgotten that the first couple weren't puppets on a string, they made choices that got sin started into the mix.  And if sin didn't have consequences then evil would be even more rampant than it is now.  But it's not up to me to convince anyone that.  For many, issues of morality, sin and evil are "relative", so ... back to square one.
> 
> Maybe a better question is: can a loving God allow His creation to "go astray" for a time, and make a plan to have them back... _forever_?
> ...



Great post


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## Achilles Return (Mar 15, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Sans sarcasm, good point.
> I haven't forgotten that the first couple weren't puppets on a string, they made choices that got sin started into the mix.  And if sin didn't have consequences then evil would be even more rampant than it is now.  But it's not up to me to convince anyone that.  For many, issues of morality, sin and evil are "relative", so ... back to square one.
> 
> Maybe a better question is: can a loving God allow His creation to "go astray" for a time, and make a plan to have them back... _forever_?
> ...



You can't have it both ways. Either the world is authored by design - or it isn't. You can't say 'well, the world is clearly designed by a perfect god, everything works so well! there is a plan!' while also saying 'oh all that bad stuff, that's just the fall of creation!'.

The problem is that you've just begged the question of some fantasy even-more-perfect world that no one has ever seen (creation) to protect logical problems with claiming design in this non-perfect world. It's circular reasoning at its worst.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 15, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> You can't have it both ways. Either the world is authored by design - or it isn't. You can't say 'well, the world is clearly designed by a perfect god, everything works so well! there is a plan!' while also saying 'oh all that bad stuff, that's just the fall of creation!'.
> 
> The problem is that you've just begged the question of some fantasy even-more-perfect world that no one has ever seen (creation) to protect logical problems with claiming design in this non-perfect world. It's circular reasoning at its worst.



But under your assumption, a "perfect world" WOULD have its occupants as "puppets", and not given the freedom to choose.  
Then, God would be a dictator of the worst kind.


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## Achilles Return (Mar 15, 2011)

Is giving a freedom to choose without offering anything in the way of material or physical evidence any better? Is giving a 'freedom to choose' when the choice against is eternal torture somehow not dictatorish? 

The free will stuff really writes you guys into holes. Christianity would be more moral if it dropped the whole 'eternal fire' thing.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 15, 2011)

None of us, self included, really _fully _understand how devastating sin is.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> None of us, self included, really _fully _understand how devastating sin is.



Did Adam and Eve?


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Did Adam and Eve?



They new it was wrong, how wrong doesnt matter. The devastation is the result.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Did Adam and Eve?



No. They believed the same lie we all believe when we go down that path...

"you will be like God..........."

Being 'like' or following God is good, but the _shortcut  _they took brought death.


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> Is giving a freedom to choose without offering anything in the way of material or physical evidence any better?


Give me a break Achilles, thats rediculous.



> Is giving a 'freedom to choose' when the choice against is eternal torture somehow not dictatorish?


How many times do we have to go through this? If you dont want a relationship with God on this earth, you dont have to have one for eternity. He gives you what you want, you should be happy. 



> The free will stuff really writes you guys into holes. Christianity would be more moral if it dropped the whole 'eternal fire' thing.


You make up your own morals and then assert them whenever you feel they're just. I think we know we dont play by the same rules when it comes to morals.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 15, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> None of us, self included, really _fully _understand how devastating sin is.



Well, lying can get you arrested!!

Cheating on your spouse and getting caught can cost you a small fortune and possibly your life...

Commiting crimes can get you arrested and an extended stay in a unpleasant place where you will get three hots and a cot...and dont worry about your night life, there would be plenty of activity there too...

All these would be severely devastating to the average church goer.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> No. They believed the same lie we all believe when we go down that path...
> 
> "you will be like God..........."
> 
> Being 'like' or following God is good, but the _shortcut  _they took brought death.



Then they didn't have the tools to make an informed decision, nor do any of us according to you. It's like giving a 5 year old the button to a nuclear weapon and telling them not to press it. They may be able to understand what you are saying but they don't have the capacity to fully comprehend the consequences of their actions. You on the other hand who created the weapon, the button, the five year old, and everything else and know before you created any of this what you would do and what the outcome would be, how could it possibly not be exactly what you intended?


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## ambush80 (Mar 15, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> You can't have it both ways. Either the world is authored by design - or it isn't. You can't say 'well, the world is clearly designed by a perfect god, everything works so well! there is a plan!' while also saying 'oh all that bad stuff, that's just the fall of creation!'.
> 
> The problem is that you've just begged the question of some fantasy even-more-perfect world that no one has ever seen (creation) to protect logical problems with claiming design in this non-perfect world. It's circular reasoning at its worst.



GTparts once told me that God can turn off his omniscience, kind of like how Superman can fly, but sometimes he walks and runs, and that's how God gets surprised and disappointed when people deny him.  

It's a great answer, and it allows for Free will, but it's not supported by the Bible which says that God has known everything from before Time.  I guess GT thinks he "discerned" that notion with divine assistance. I think he made it up.


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> You can't have it both ways. Either the world is authored by design - or it isn't. You can't say 'well, the world is clearly designed by a perfect god, everything works so well! there is a plan!' while also saying 'oh all that bad stuff, that's just the fall of creation!'.
> 
> The problem is that you've just begged the question of some fantasy even-more-perfect world that no one has ever seen (creation) to protect logical problems with claiming design in this non-perfect world. It's circular reasoning at its worst.





ambush80 said:


> GTparts once told me that God can turn off his omniscience, kind of like how Superman can fly, but sometimes he walks and runs, and that's how God gets surprised and disappointed when people deny him.
> 
> It's a great answer, and it allows for Free will, but it's not supported by the Bible which says that God has known everything from before Time.  I guess GT thinks he "discerned" that notion with divine assistance. I think he made it up.



Answer every question we have and perfectly reconcile every situation we can come up with to our standards, to which we sometimes raise or lower according to what we too want to believe or your a dumb Christian and you have bought into a lie. If you two thought for one second that God did exist, you think we could explain him on a forum next to a some guys talking about where to hog hunt at?


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic,

It is Christians and their bible who are making the claims about God, not us. We are just challenging you and others to reconcile those claims with the reality of the world around us. It's not our fault that is a difficult task.


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## ambush80 (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Answer every question we have and perfectly reconcile every situation we can come up with to our standards, to which we sometimes raise or lower according to what we too want to believe or your a dumb Christian and you have bought into a lie. If you two thought for one second that God did exist, you think we could explain him on a forum next to a some guys talking about where to hog hunt at?



Do you think it is possible for a God to give me or you the ability to explain and understand him?


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> stringmusic,
> 
> It is Christians and their bible who are making the claims about God, not us. We are just challenging you and others to reconcile those claims with the reality of the world around us. It's not our fault that is a difficult task.



It is a difficult task because I'm not God and dont have his knowledge. The comments suggesting unintelligence get old sometimes though.(really have not gotten any from you)


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Do you think it is possible for a God to give me or you the ability to explain and understand him?


I dont think we have the capacity to have full understanding of God. If we had all the knowledge of God we might think we are God.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Then they didn't have the tools to make an informed decision, nor do any of us according to you.


They had more than enough, and still accepted the lie...

Genesis 2:16-17<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-47">
16</sup>The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-48">17</sup>but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it <sup class="xref" value="(B)"></sup>you will surely die." 

And so do we...

*Romans 6:23*
For the *wages* of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> It is a difficult task because I'm not God and dont have his knowledge.



True but you do claim to have his word in writing and a direct line of communication with him. Seems like that would help matters.




stringmusic said:


> The comments suggesting unintelligence get old sometimes though.(really have not gotten any from you)



I don't question your intelligence. I'm sure you're a smart guy and see the points made on this forum more than you may be willing to admit.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 15, 2011)

Later, time for sushi


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> They had more than enough, and still accepted the lie...
> 
> <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-47">16</sup>The LORD God <sup class="xref" value="(A)"></sup>commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
> <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-48">17</sup>but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it <sup class="xref" value="(B)"></sup>you will surely die."
> ...



"I told the 5 year old not to press that button!"

The analogy still stands.


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## georgiabow (Mar 15, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Do you think it is possible for a God to give me or you the ability to explain and understand him?


if something as complex as god did exist, i doubt we could comprehend it.

the being / entity would be just unbelievably complex. the mental capacity would be extraordinary.

every person on this planet would be an individual channel of input. so this being would have to be able to simultaneously analyze and process billions of individual channels of input 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, as well as analyze, process, and respond to billions of prayers requests every day. in addition to this, this being would have to be able to process and execute different weather patterns for everywhere on the planet 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. this being would have to constant create different daily scenarios, happenings, and occurrences for all of these individual channels of input on a daily basis.

now.... lets not forget all the animals in the world. there are more animals than people, by several times over. god would have to have an individual channel for all of these too.....

for me, its a no-go.


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## ambush80 (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I dont think we have the capacity to have full understanding of God. If we had all the knowledge of God we might think we are God.





georgiabow said:


> if something as complex as god did exist, i doubt we could comprehend it.
> 
> the being / entity would be just unbelievably complex. the mental capacity would be extraordinary.
> 
> ...



Wow.  You found something that God can't do.


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## georgiabow (Mar 15, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Wow.  You found something that God can't do.



really? well that would just debunk the whole theory now wouldnt it........


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## StriperAddict (Mar 15, 2011)

*one more, see ya later on this................*



ambush80 said:


> Wow.  You found something that God can't do.


Precisely correct...

*Titus 1:2*
in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot *lie*, promised before time began,


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## georgiabow (Mar 15, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Precisely correct...
> 
> *Titus 1:2*
> in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot *lie*, promised before time began,



so... what is that really saying? is really saying god cannot lie, or is it really saying that god is capable of always telling the truth...........


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I don't question your intelligence. I'm sure you're a smart guy and see the points made on this forum more than you may be willing to admit.



I see the points made and the questions asked, I have seen great questions asked by you that I have for God, I dont loose my faith over it. Believe me, I have stepped back and asked myself "Are all the things I believe to be true really true?" I am sure you have done the same.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You on the other hand who created the weapon, the button, the five year old, and everything else and know before you created any of this what you would do and what the outcome would be, how could it possibly not be exactly what you intended?



This question has been asked many times in many ways on this forum. It always gets ignored.


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## stringmusic (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> This question has been asked many times in many ways on this forum. It always gets ignored.



I dont have an answer for you.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I see the points made and the questions asked, I have seen great questions asked by you that I have for God, I dont loose my faith over it. Believe me, I have stepped back and asked myself "Are all the things I believe to be true really true?" I am sure you have done the same.



I asked myself that question for many years. And I'll tell you the truth, one of the reasons it took many years for me to get to the point I am now was the fear of burning if it turned out I was wrong.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I dont have an answer for you.



That's an honest answer.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 15, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Do you think it is possible for a God to give me or you the ability to explain and understand him?


 
Yes, concerning belonging, but not all His counsel & knowledge. Aren't there things an earthly Father keeps from his child so he 
doesn't fall.... until he/she is older? 
Maybe if the children of Israel back in the day knew the "whole 
counsel of God" things would be different, for the better or the 
worse. Why try to judge these things in their totality when we 
have enough to simply come home to the Lord & His care?


The bottom line, it's about relationship, 
and God can make it possible for even a child to understand...
*Matthew 19:14*
Jesus said, “Let the little *children* come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”


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## ambush80 (Mar 15, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Yes, concerning belonging, but not all His counsel & knowledge. Aren't there things an earthly Father keeps from his child so he
> doesn't fall.... until he/she is older?
> Maybe if the children of Israel back in the day knew the "whole
> counsel of God" things would be different, for the better or the
> ...



Because I gots'ta know (or at least try to know as best I can).  I couldn't live with myself if I accepted something SO extraordinary without thorough investigation.




StriperAddict said:


> The bottom line, it's about relationship,
> and God can make it possible for even a child to understand...
> *Matthew 19:14*
> Jesus said, “Let the little *children* come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”



I will "hinder" her (my daughter) from believing in anything blindly because I value the ability to think critically and objectively and will pass that on to her as I consider teaching her those lessons my duty.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 15, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Because I gots'ta know (or at least try to know as best I can). I couldn't live with myself if I accepted something SO extraordinary without thorough investigation.


 
I don't have a single problem with that at all.  What I've often said during the course of my searches (and finding God faithful), is that many objections didn't necessarily go away, but became smaller as time went on.  There are some questions/struggles we will never figure out or explain, and it's because God is bigger than us(and I for one want Him to stay that way!), and ultimatly knows what we really need better than we do.
All humor aside, I'd encourage you and everyone to keep up the search and look for those answers.  A brother at lunch just reminded me of those old words from Christ in Matthew... 
"For everyone who asks receives, and he who *seeks* finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." *Matthew 7:8*

Peace


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## CAL (Mar 15, 2011)

Achilles Return said:


> The free will stuff really writes you guys into holes. Christianity would be more moral if it dropped the whole 'eternal fire' thing.



Wrong again,see we Christians believe in torment because we believe the Bible to be the word of God.The word of God clearly tells of people being cast into a burning inferno.It tells of a man asking his brother to give him just a drop of water to cool his tongue.Man,I got to try to stay outer that place.I don't even like the beach cause it is so hot.
The "free will " stuff is what makes Christians,Christians in the sight of God.Most everything God ask his people to do for Him He ask them to do "free will".To me "free will" means to do something on ones own without question.


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## bullethead (Mar 15, 2011)

Didn't Free Will get lots of people killed in the Bible because God was not happy with man? Why give humans Free Will if your gonna punish them for using it?


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## ambush80 (Mar 15, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Didn't Free Will get lots of people killed in the Bible because God was not happy with man? Why give humans Free Will if your gonna punish them for using it?



It's a game.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

CAL said:


> Wrong again,see we Christians believe in torment because we believe the Bible to be the word of God.The word of God clearly tells of people being cast into a burning inferno.It tells of a man asking his brother to give him just a drop of water to cool his tongue.Man,I got to try to stay outer that place.I don't even like the beach cause it is so hot.
> The "free will " stuff is what makes Christians,Christians in the sight of God.Most everything God ask his people to do for Him He ask them to do "free will".To me "free will" means to do something on ones own without question.



Indeed it does clearly tell of such a place. Whether sending people to such a place for an eternity based on their beliefs is the behavior of a loving moral being is another matter which has been discussed here many times. Saying this is a matter of free will is like saying someone with a gun to their head has free will whether or not to turn over their wallet. While technically true the coercion involved makes it a mockery to call it freedom.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> All humor aside, I'd encourage you and everyone to keep up the search and look for those answers.  A brother at lunch just reminded me of those old words from Christ in Matthew...
> "For everyone who asks receives, and he who *seeks* finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." *Matthew 7:8*
> 
> Peace



I prefer John 8:32.


----------



## CAL (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Indeed it does clearly tell of such a place. Whether sending people to such a place for an eternity based on their beliefs is the behavior of a loving moral being is another matter which has been discussed here many times. Saying this is a matter of free will is like saying someone with a gun to their head has free will whether or not to turn over their wallet. While technically true the coercion involved makes it a mockery to call it freedom.



Not exactly there atlas.Put a gun to my head and I will give ya anything I got and whatever I can steal fer ya too.
I telling ya I ain't going to no torment to worry about it.I am headed fer the promised land.I know what I am posting.Only reason I am hear discussing this atheist thing is to try to get you atlas and the rest here to be with ole CAL in the promise land.No other reason.See,so much of the Bible I have never read but I love the New Testament and all the things Jesus told his disciples.Stay with me atlas,the Lord is dealing with ya or you wouldn't be here trying to argue about the scriptures and christian stuff.

Ya can't fool me atlas,I see where ya done read John 8 verse 32,but I won't tell the rest of these brothers what claim not to believe.You couldn't just go and pick out that verse of scripture without reading and being familiar with the Bible.I had to look it up,couldn't remember what it was but do now.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

I appreciate that Cal. If you can make sense of the bible that would be a start. At least we would have a consistent and logical story to deal with. So far we haven't even reached that point on this forum. Lots of unanswered challenges for the believers. Also keep in mind that the path of believing in what you believe is one many of us have already been down.

I agree you might "see things my way" with a gun at your head but I think you missed the point. Would you call that free will? I'd call it slavery.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

Question for you Cal. Do you think it possible that someone trying to get you to believe something that they couldn't convince you of on it's own merits might make up something like he11 to scare you into believing? Think that is possible?


----------



## CAL (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Question for you Cal. Do you think it possible that someone trying to get you to believe something that they couldn't convince you of on it's own merits might make up something like he11 to scare you into believing? Think that is possible?



Yes Sir,I certainly do believe such could happen.BUT,I believe the Bible to be the word of God and I don't challenge what it says nor do I question it either.

Bro.atlas,let me make myself clearer if possible.Here is where my strong belief comes from.I don't wish to bore anyone with a long post so I will try to make this as short as possible.

My Daddy died and I had an experience with what the Bible tells us is the Comforter.It was just as real as I am posting now.My wife saw this happen to me.

I later had a sick Grandchild that even the Dr.'s said wouldn't live and if lived would be a child not normal.WRONG,she lives and is a picture of health 15 years old.People who were not connected and never hear the story and marvel at the miracle.

These two happenings are my testimony of my strong belief in Jesus and God.Reason being,in the Bible all this information I just posted is there.Information about Healing and sending the Comforter in bad times.The rest about doing alms and the Lord Blessing you is just as real too.All of the above have happened to me,that is all I can say.Had anyone that disbelieves been in my shoes during the fore mentioned times,they would believe too.

Our Bible tells us that the Lord will put you on your knees if He has to,to get your attention.I tell you I have been on my knees too.


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## atlashunter (Mar 15, 2011)

CAL said:


> Yes Sir,I certainly do believe such could happen.BUT,I believe the Bible to be the word of God and I don't challenge what it says nor do I question it either.



Which is exactly why I can't accept any assertion on your part that it is either true or the work of a deity. All evidence I see points to its fallibility and man made origins.




CAL said:


> My Daddy died and I had an experience with what the Bible tells us is the Comforter.It was just as real as I am posting now.My wife saw this happen to me.
> 
> I later had a sick Grandchild that even the Dr.'s said wouldn't live and if lived would be a child not normal.WRONG,she lives and is a picture of health 15 years old.People who were not connected and never hear the story and marvel at the miracle.



I don't question you are sincere in how you perceive your personal experiences. My question is two fold. First, lets admit the possibility of the explanation for the experiences you hold to. Are there other possible explanations which would be something other than biblical? I think the answer to this is yes. Why? Because people of other faiths and even no faith at all have similar experiences. Maybe their explanation is right and yours is mistaken? Not saying it is, just that it is possible. Secondly, given that possibility how do you determine the truth of what you believe? When I pursued these questions I reached very different conclusions from yours.

One other point about personal experience and miracles of healing. If it is something that happens to all people but in very rare cases that isn't a miracle nor can it be credited to any particular faith. If a muslim cited the exact same experience with your granddaughter would you agree then that their religious views are true?

There is a family that I am very close friends with. They are very hardcore pentecostals let me tell you. Wonderful people and dear friends and their faith is as strong as any I've ever known. Last summer one of their grandkids was out playing and got locked in their car. By the time they realized he was missing and looked for him he was already in really bad shape, maybe dead already I don't know. He was flown to the hospital and doctors worked on him but couldn't save him. In the meantime you can only imagine the prayers they were sending up. Now two things could have happened here. He could have been revived and lived, it does happen to people of all faiths, backgrounds, etc. even if the odds are slim. Or he could have died which he did. Now suppose he had lived. What would they have said? That they got lucky and the doctors saved the child? Of course not. It would have been seen as a miracle and answered prayer from God. Yet if he died it isn't seen as any kind of evidence against God. In other words, "God" was put in a no lose situation. If the child survives he get the credit, if the child dies it doesn't count against him in any way. The point is believers often count the hits and ignore all the misses with their prayers. Under this scenario you can replace the prayer to God with a prayer to a horseshoe, a lucky rabbits foot, or anything else and you'll get the same results.


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## ambush80 (Mar 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Which is exactly why I can't accept any assertion on your part that it is either true or the work of a deity. All evidence I see points to its fallibility and man made origins.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think they ignore the misses.  I think that they believe that their loss was for a good (albeit clandestine and possibly irrational) reason.


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## vowell462 (Mar 15, 2011)

CAL said:


> Yes Sir,I certainly do believe such could happen.BUT,I believe the Bible to be the word of God and I don't challenge what it says nor do I question it either.
> 
> Bro.atlas,let me make myself clearer if possible.Here is where my strong belief comes from.I don't wish to bore anyone with a long post so I will try to make this as short as possible.
> 
> ...



You seem like a great guy Cal. However, Ive had a few VERY near death experiences.More than the average 30 yr old man. All the credit given is only to the doctors who saved my life. If it wasnt for them, no way Id be alive. In one instance, it was only one doctor, after all the others had given up and my family was planning my funeral. I never saw god, or Jesus, but a very educated man with the knowledge of medicine.


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## CAL (Mar 15, 2011)

atlas,ambush,vowell462 and anyone else that has doubts about our Lord and what he does and doesn't do.I can well assure you all that like you folks there are questions about Christianity,God,the angles,and Jesus for me too.The people the Bible speaks of and calls by name.The people Jesus healed and the things He preached about when on this earth.Even much more that right now I cannot think of at the moment.These things I cannot answer and neither can anyone else living.I do intend to find out when I meet these people and I feel sure I will.We can spend forever tearing up the Bible in tiny pieces and never answer the how and the why of so much.I know this and I wish I could say hey this is why!I can't,all I can do is to plant a seed with all who disbelieve that they just might be wrong.Being wrong is the key here because anyone wrong will NOT make the promise land.

I wish all could see i just want all to go to the promise land.So much cannot be explained without scripture as in what Jesus said to the people.He said,"if you do not acknowledge Me(meaning Jesus)before man,neither will I acknowledge you before my Farther which is in Heaven".This is all i am doing here.I have never once criticized anyone only asked you to reconsider.I have a time or two said you are wrong!

Lets look at this at another angle.Now,if I posted in the deer hunting forum that I had a new way to hunt deer and it worked ever time i tried it and I just want every deer hunter to be successful this year.In order to be successful with the new kind of deer hunting,the hunter had to wear a ladies dress,lipstick,and other kinds of makeup.Don't ask me why it works but if you wish to kill a deer you can get one for sure this way every time.I bet all I own that everyone reading would have on a dress the next hunting day.They might not let anyone see them but they would dress accordingly.AND,the first successful hunter would be bragging about his deer and how he killed it.Trying to get everyone else just as successful as he was.
See what I mean,everyone would do this without question.Talk about your forever life in eternity and folks will pick your comments to pieces.


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## 1handkneehigh (Mar 16, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Did I suggest I would bombard someone who asked me to leave with "sending in the Cavalry"?  You missed my point if so....



You didn't suggest it, but the potential is there.  It's easier to lure bees with honey than vinegar.


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## 1handkneehigh (Mar 16, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> love is a shame?



Love is not a shame when there is no string attach to it.  Your kind of love has caused a friend of mine to lose his family.  Not too long ago he and his family were lured into this church with love and kindness.  They attended church regularly and worshipped the lord.  About a year later the pastor ran off with his wife and she took the kids with her.  Now tell me is this the kind of love you are talking about?  You preyed on those who are misfortunes and cannot rationally think for themselves.


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## CAL (Mar 17, 2011)

1handkneehigh said:


> Love is not a shame when there is no string attach to it.  Your kind of love has caused a friend of mine to lose his family.  Not too long ago he and his family were lured into this church with love and kindness.  They attended church regularly and worshipped the lord.  About a year later the pastor ran off with his wife and she took the kids with her.  Now tell me is this the kind of love you are talking about?  You preyed on those who are misfortunes and cannot rationally think for themselves.



Man,1hand that is some terrible news especially for the man losing his family.But,hey you ,me,and all living are just normal humans with human ways.My first thoughts when ever I hear about someone going against their marriage vows and doing as you have posted.Something is bad wrong there in the marriage and an individuals relationship with their Lord if they had or ever had a relationship with their Lord.Also,I am sure there is but I never have heard of someone who was wronged in a marriage and only one of the two were wrong and the cause.Old saying,"it takes two to tango".This meaning both were at fault and one couldn't take the unpleasantness any longer.The very worst part being the effect it has on the children who only get what they are given or handed in a marriage.The children can do nothing else,sad!


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## stringmusic (Mar 17, 2011)

1handkneehigh said:


> Love is not a shame when there is no string attach to it.  Your kind of love has caused a friend of mine to lose his family.


Your assuming you know what my kind of love is.



> Not too long ago he and his family were lured into this church with love and kindness.  They attended church regularly and worshipped the lord.  About a year later the pastor ran off with his wife and she took the kids with her.  Now tell me is this the kind of love you are talking about?


No, this is not the kind of love I am talking about. First off, I am not even talking about love, I just ask why do you think love is a shame. Here is a tip though, dont put to much faith in the action of people, they will let you down.



> You preyed on those who are misfortunes and cannot rationally think for themselves.


When did this occur?


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