# TBG Fall newsletter is out



## bownarrow (Sep 3, 2010)

check out the latest issue of TBG's quarterly magazine. The front cover gives a pretty complete schedule of events and inside you'll find Rev. Ezra Brooks latest adventure and a doe killing how-to by Matt. For those of you who don't know much about the Kid's Outdoor Event, Melvin gives some details along with our usual invitation to join in the fun


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## Dennis (Sep 3, 2010)

As usual Melvin did a great job with our newsletter


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## bownarrow (Sep 3, 2010)

yes, sometimes Melvin amazes me that he can do what he does and in a pretty short time frame---just gettin all us officers to write our letters is often like herding cats, not to mention gettin everything to fit just so for the even-numbered page format


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## Elbow (Sep 4, 2010)

I did enjoy Clay's story of sharing the trad experience with your children...it's so nice to see children wanting to spend some time out doors rather than on the computer.

I agree with Jeff Kitchens....we need more Trad partners, significant others, and spouses to help with/attend Trad gatherings. I am glad that I have someone that is willing to go to any of these without ever having met anyone from TBG.  I think I bragged to much on ya'll!!!
El


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## dutchman (Sep 5, 2010)

Melvin does do a nice job. The Rev. Ezra Brooks writes entertaining material as well.

I am somewhat concerned by the financial condition of TBG, however. Though this may have been the case for years, when the membership dues don't even cover the cost of the newsletter, that's a problem. Heck, any time your expenses exceed your income, you're in the stew. If TBG is going to be around in years to come, we need to turn that trend around now. 

I do agree with Melvin's assessment that TBG needs another big shoot during the year to raise money. It would probably compete with someone else's shoot, but we're already competing to get people's interest. That competition comes from every direction. For example, if TBG has an event on one of the weekends that our granddaughter comes for a visit with us, I'll be here with her. That's just the way it is. 


I think that relocating the state shoot to a place with toilets, showers, hook-ups for the campers, and a pavillion to meet and eat under will help increase attendance. That is a good move. It makes the State Shoot more attractive for people thinking about attending.

The Zone Shoots are a lot of fun, too. I was able to attend both the Central Zone and the Northern Zone shoots this year and both were great! We need to round that out with a Southern Zone shoot next year! Surely a place to hold such an event can be found. With the number of shooters in the southern part of the state, I'd bet that a Southern Zone shoot would do as well or better than either of the other zone shoots we have now.

One way that our local traditional archery club raises money is by providing food at our shoots each month and charging a $5 fee per person for lunch. We make money doing that, even though it's all you care to eat. Usually it's burgers and dogs and trimmings, dessert and a drink. Simple, easy and it raises operating funds. The only thing is, it takes a volunteer member to do it all and that person usually doesn't shoot that particular month, so it is a sacrifice. It works, though.

One other thing to think about and it may be considered sacreligious by some, but in order to increase revenue at shoots, why not have a compound class or two at the State Shoot only (probably wouldn't be practical at the zone shoots). The success of the Appling Archers annual event was pointed out in the newsletter and my first thought was, "Yeah, but they allow compound shooters." I don't think it would hurt us a bit to allow compound shooters at our big event if we keep them on their own 20 target course. If some trad folks wanted to shoot with some compound guys and gals, they could do so on the designated compound course. And who knows, maybe the trad bug would bite a compound shooter or three if we get them among us. They'd see what fine folks we have a our events and what fun we have with traditional gear and just maybe they'd want to become a part. Just plain ol' Recruiting 101...

At any rate, TBG needs ideas from its members as to how to raise income, reduce expenses, and balance the budget. It goes without saying that we can't run like the Federal Government for long.

OK, I've got my flame retardant clothing ready, so go ahead...


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## Necedah (Sep 5, 2010)

I'm not so sure if I want to deal with wheelie shooters at our tournaments. I joined TBG to get away from that crowd. 
 A few additional dollars in dues to support TBG  is nothing compared to the fellowship and good times I receive from my membership. 
There is so much talent in the group, how about producing another TBG book or a TBG video?

Dave


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## dutchman (Sep 5, 2010)

Necedah said:


> I'm not so sure if I want to deal with wheelie shooters at our tournaments. I joined TBG to get away from that crowd.
> A few additional dollars in dues to support TBG  is nothing compared to the fellowship and good times I receive from my membership.
> There is so much talent in the group, how about producing another TBG book or a TBG video?
> 
> Dave



Two excellent suggestions. I think both would be effective ways of raising operating revenue.

The reason I bring up the compound option is as a way to (1) increase revenues and (2) as a means of recruting new members to TBG. The only ways that I'm aware of to increase income are to (a) increase cost to current participants or (b) increase the number of participants and thereby hold cost lower.

I like discussion. More ideas mean more options and choices. That can't be a bad thing. 

I would be opposed to inclusion of compound shooters if they didn't have their own designated course to shoot. I'd likely stay off of that course due to the waiting time involved when you get behind a group of serious compound shooters. Them folks are perfectionists!


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## Dennis (Sep 5, 2010)

Well i don't want compounders at our state shoot!  BUT maybe have a seperate shoot to intro. people to trad. shooting  and have all the fun stuff like aerial targets, moving targets, Food and all the other fun stuff that we do and there missing out on.
 I think we spend WAY to much money on a newsletter we could cut that in half by only having it twice a year and that way Melvin would not have to beg people for something to write about and to cut cost even further it is about time we did most of it by computer or even better put it on our web site.
 TBG does a great job of hosting youth shoots and i think that is the most important thing that we can do as a club. 
 There is no reason that we should not be making enough money to buy new targets heck we even have to rent targets for our State shoot. We have to do something now to turn it around  now.


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## Jake Allen (Sep 5, 2010)

Great points Dennis.

I can see the newsletter as it is _distributed_, is sucking the financial life from this fine organization.
I enjoy reading the newsletter, and Melvin, bless him, works his fingers to the bone with this quarterly. 

I, as a member, do not have the option of my dues going to other uses, and my $30.00 barely covers the cost of the my newsletter in my mailbox.

If that is what TBG is, then so be it. But but that is not what I understood the primary goal of this organization to be.

Currently the bylaws state:

_The purpose of the organization shall include, but not be limited to:

A) Promoting the enjoyment of hunting with traditional archery equipment.
B) Providing education and information concerning the sport of traditional bowhunting to the general public, the Georgia DNR, and state and federal authorities.
C) Providing for members and guests opportunities to gather at social and hunting events.
D) Provide members and guests opportunities to improve their hunting and shooting skills.
E) Any other purpose agreed upon by the majority of the membership and in keeping with the highest ethics of traditional archery._

I did not read:
A) To provide a quarterly news letter for the members of TBG.

My dues are due, and I will renew, but with a request to not send me a hard copy of the newsletter. I can read Al's,
or Tomi's, or hopefully an electronic copy that I can print.

My Best Regards


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## Elbow (Sep 5, 2010)

Good point Mr. Jake Allen!  I will gladly have my newsletter sent to me via my personal email if it will help cut cost.

I think as a group we can all come together to cut the cost rather than think of new things to make more money....might be the best approach??
El


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## Al33 (Sep 5, 2010)

Jake Allen said:


> My dues are due, and I will renew, but with a request to not send me a hard copy of the newsletter. I can read Al's,
> or Tomi's, or hopefully an electronic copy that I can print.
> 
> My Best Regards



Can't read mine 'cause I didn't get one this time. Maybe it will be in Tuesdays mail.

The TBG is first and foremost all about "traditional bow hunting" and I for one hope it stays that course. I have nothing against compound shooters but I do not want them at our events only because it is not of interests to us and does not fit our agendas. Neither am I concerned about recruiting members because I think that will take care of itself. Folks read about us here and elsewhere not to mention the many who are introduced to traditional archery directly by current TBG members and they often end up joining TBG.

I would be OK with an e-newsletter to save treasury funds but I sure do like my paper copy because it's portable.


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## dpoole (Sep 5, 2010)

Dont pretent to know the answer,but loseing money on the newsletter just dont seem right? Useing that formula then if the tbg had a increase in membership then it would only lose more money.It is sad that promoting trad archery and getting more people involved could break the tbg bank account.


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## Necedah (Sep 5, 2010)

Would there be any way to attach the newsletter to a sticky on this website? Members could go there to read or download it, and others could go there and see what Traditional Archery is all about.
I also would be happy to forgo my paper copy for an electonic copy if it saves money.

Dave


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## PAPALAPIN (Sep 5, 2010)

Dennis

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that was discussed at the meeting and the consensus was that this would give non members one more reason not to join the TBG, if they got the news letter anyway.  Right now they can attend any of our events without being a member, and many say "why join if I can participate without being amember?".   Posting the newsletter here would strengthen that position.

I think that voluntary agreement to take the newsletter via e-mail is the best cost cutting measure that we have.

Another measure would be to increase income from the newsletter by increasing advertizing rates, and/or possible charging a nominal fee for a subscription...at lease enough to cover the cost per subscription.  I would pay that.

We all have to accept that we just can't continue to get something for nothing...or maybe we can if we the TBG could get some Federal Stimulus Money


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## dutchman (Sep 5, 2010)

Add me to the electronic only newsletter option. If you do the math, the $3120 in dues income for the year = 104 members. There have to be more traditional bowhunters in the state that that...

But, it is good to see that we don't have any snobs or elitists in our little group...


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## Dennis (Sep 5, 2010)

I don't think in these times we need to increase any cost for the newsletter. What i think is that we need to charge more at the shoots if your not a member and have more shoots. I joined TBG to get to hang out with like minded people not read about it. And we need figure out how to cut cost on that newsletter that is sucking the life out of the club


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## dutchman (Sep 5, 2010)

PAPALAPIN said:


> It has nothing to do with "snobs or elitest"...the TBG is what it is.



Jack, that part of my last post was in jest, hence all the smilies...


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## Dennis (Sep 5, 2010)

If we spent the $4,640.00 on having more shoots and bettering TBG buy having more things to do to entice more people to join instead of giving out a newsletter this club would take off. I cant believe we are using a newsletter to help entice people to join. Melvin does a fantastic job on the newsletter but it does not do anything for me except giving me something to read, I would rather read about the shoots and hunts comming up on our web site so i could go and hang out with my friends and shoot with them.


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## dutchman (Sep 5, 2010)

Let's examine what TBG members are entitled to when compared to non-TBG members...

1. Shoots, State and Zone - Members and non-members alike are all welcome (and should be). Non-members are encouraged to hang out with us and hopefully join TBG at some future date.
2. Hunts - Members and non-members alike are all welcome (and should be). These hunts are held on public land and anyone with a valid hunting license and WMA stamp and legal equipment is encouraged to participate. Non-members are can hang out with TBG members and hopefully they will decide to join TBG at some future date.
3. Banquet - Again, this event is open to anyone who can pay for a meal ticket, whether they're a member or not. Members are encouraged to donate items for the fund raising raffle. Everyone who attends is encouraged to purchase raffle tickets to help support TBG. Members and non-members who buy these tickets can win a double armload of prizes if they're lucky enough. And the non-members can hang out with TBG members and hopefully decide to join TBG at some future date. 

The only things that are currently reserved for TBG members are (1) the newsletter and (2) the right to vote. Benefit #2 is only open to regular (as opposed to associate) members.

So, when a non-member asks the question, "what are the benefits of joining TBG?", how should we respond? And don't say the fellowship and good times. We're giving that away for nothing, as we should.

To me, that answer has to lie in the educational aspects found in the youth program. Thank goodness for Tony Smith!


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## Dennis (Sep 5, 2010)

Amen! to that and what Tony does for everybody. My membership is due next month and i was also figuring things up if i dont renew my membership and go to all the shoots and events i will save 10.00
except for getting to vote and a newsletter. Don't get me wrong if it was not for TBG i would still be shooting in the back yard thinking i was the only one that shot trad. and i would have missed out on meeting the very best friends and times i have ever had! TBG needs to keep going and WE need to get off our old ways that are going to die with the club and come up with new ways in these modern times to attract new members and take TBG to the next level.


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## OconeeDan (Sep 5, 2010)

This is a very good thread.

The TBG does have an official website, maybe upload the newsletters on it and give a password to members?  That way, only members can have access to it.  Or better yet, just have the newsletters emailed to the members.

I agree, that being a paid member doesn't really get you a lot of extra goodies in return.  BUT, we have a common interest, and we need to pay our dues for the good of our common interest.  

I'll agree with Dennis and others, the friendships we share at the campfires is very special.

Dan


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## Dennis (Sep 5, 2010)

If the newsletter is so important then it should support itself buy the advertisement money it brings in. If not were spending OUR money and advertiseing for Them!!!


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## Shane Whitlock (Sep 5, 2010)

Just like to add my two cents....First, I enjoy the news letter and look forward to getting it out of the mailbox. I know it takes alot of hardwork and time getting  it completed and mailed out, and my hat's off to you. I am in favor of cutting cost to save the club from bankrupt. At the last meeting, (as well with the year before) the topic of internet based service was recommended. I don't know how much time it would take to build a site, but has TBG got any progress in this direction. I don't want to sound like a copy-cat, but has anybody checked out the NGT archery web site. I don't know how well their forum works but I like it. 

Secondly, I have had unpleasant shooting experiences with local 3-d  shoots with compound shooters present. I really thought about why I don't like to be around them and then I realized it's not the average compound shooters.It's the competition compound shooters. And if any of them read this, I'm not sorry you had to wait on me and the kids to move on so you could try to make a 50 yard shot.  Anyway, if we want to reach out to other archer's we have to go to them if we  want to draw them into the beautiful world of traditional archery. We have to have our line in the water if you want to get a bite, sort-a-speak.

The reason I left the compound world was because I needed more challenge. The challenge is in all that shoot archery equipment wither it be all wood or all moving parts. That's why we choose arrows over bullets. Everybody, I meet if it is in bass pro or wal-mart it try to encourage them to challenge themselves by picking up trad gear. I tell the about how I shoot only long bows and recurves and tell them about TBG. Are we as members doing our part, in trying to encourage others to come out and play?


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## Al33 (Sep 5, 2010)

OconeeDan said:


> TI agree, that being a paid member doesn't really get you a lot of extra goodies in return.  BUT, we have a common interest, and we need to pay our dues for the good of our common interest. Dan



Well said Dan. There will always be free-riders just as there will always be people who will not leave a tip for service but they are small in number. I am confident that the vast majority of folks who attend a few TBG events will be inclined to join knowing they have and will reap the rewards of the organization's efforts. I think it is important to keep everything open to non-members because a lot of folks are not sure how involved they want to get into trad archery. Allowing them to come see and experience what we are about is a good thing for TBG. As I have said before, traditional archery and especially trad archery hunting is NOT for everyone. I do not buy into the premise of some that once you try it you will be hooked for life so I think it is important to let folks come, see, and try without having to become a member first.


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## dutchman (Sep 5, 2010)

So, do we just stand by and watch this thing implode? Something needs to be done about the cash flow, it would seem to me. I have confidence in our officers and feel that there are members who are interested in helping the organization. There have been some good ideas put forward in this thread. We likely need more.

How about a Southern Zone Shoot? That would bring in needed revenue.

How about making membership dues payable at the same time every year for every member? I can't think of a single organization that I've ever been a member of that had dues set up the way we do in TBG. I can't imagine what a headache it is to our Secretary/Treasurer to try to keep up with membership stats the way dues are paid throughout the year. Why not make everyone's dues payable at the State Shoot or the Banquet. That could/would save some money on postage and envelopes as members could pay their dues and get their new membership card right there.

Speaking of postage, the current newsletter was mailed to my home with $1.05 in postage on it. I assume that everyone else's copy cost the same amount. Electronic copies would be cheaper, wouldn't they?

Someone brought up the matter of the ads in the newsletter. With the small membership number that TBG has from year to year, an advertiser in the newsletter is not reaching many folks. I think that our advertisers are benevolent people who advertise with us out of the goodness of their hearts for the most part and not from a sound business perspective. And I thank them for what they do. But I do not think that we should charge so much for ads that the newsletter in its current form would be able to pay for itself. 

One other thing I noticed by reading carefully in my current copy of the newsletter is that a non-member can subscribe to it for $4 per copy. That ain't but $16 per year. If a non-member pays that money, he gets the newsletter and the only thing he can't do that a TBG member can is vote.

I really don't have any idea as to how many of these suggestions could be put into play without a vote of the entire membership. We may well be required to wait until the next business meeting in August to discuss and act on any of these notions. But we can't stand many more fiscal years like the one we have just had. We'll be broke before August if next year goes like this last one has.


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## matt schuster (Sep 6, 2010)

Some great ideas here - I personally don't think compounds should be allowed at any of the regulars shoots.   However, why not have a compound shoot either the next day or after the trad guys have started their shoot - or, have a seperate shoot where each TBG member is encouraged to invite an interested compounder.    I enjoy traditional bowhunting so much that I am naive enough to believe that inside every compounder is a potential trad guy - I know that is not necessarily true, but I am always amazed when anyone shows a lack of interest. . . .  

One other thing - back when TBG was swimming in money (and we were for awhile), the dues still never came close to coveing the cost of the newsletter.    Most of the funds have always come from shoots and the banquet raffle.    What we need is more members, and more members to attend events.      Many organizations like ours are having membership problems - PBS is one, and after hearing several of my friends constantly talk about joining but never doing it, I just paid their dues.    If you know a budding traditionalist and have some extra cash,  $30 is a small investment.     I am going to do that today, for my brother, who is starting to show some interest, and maybe for RC - because then he'll have to take me hog hunting. . lol.


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## PAPALAPIN (Sep 6, 2010)

Part of what we are facing right now is the poor economy.  Some folks just don't have the extra disposable funds for supporting the TBG.

One thing I have found...no matter how bad the economy is, people are gong to eat, and people are going to play.  However, their food budget may no let them eat filet mignon, and their play budget will probably also be restricted.

As we all have to economize in tough times, so must the TBG.  If the newletter is somewhat of a luxery, we will need to economize on that too, and figure out a way to to produce it at less cost, or possibly suspend it until times get better.   Not something I want to see happen, but something we may need to consider.


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## fflintlock (Sep 6, 2010)

I have been reading the "TBG" topics with interest and amazement. I would like to offer a non member opinion, if I may. I would also like to join the TBG, perhaps this year I will do so, I don't know yet. 
I think trad only at any event is perfectly fine and should remain that way. Traditional archery is a feeling, that is very hard to describe, it is who we are, not what we shoot with, if you can understand that.  If you can't, well then you aren't a traditional archer. People will, at their leisure, come into this fold. You just don't go out on the street and find these people, they will actually, seek you out. Not everyone who picks up a long bow will be a traditional archer,nor can you make them to be one either. We teach our friends and families this tradition, and they in return teach their friends and families. The traditional archery field was big at one time, because that is what there was to use. Today is a different day, modern technology has played a big role in how people hunt and what they use. To most people who hunt today, it is about how long can I expand my chances on killing that big buck, how far out will I be able to take that shot, how fast can I make my arrow fly, etc, etc. That, is not what traditional archery is all about, that is not what we shoot our simple stick and strings, is it ? We are not better in any way, we are just different, we can not be explained, we do this for us. Please keep this club, traditional only.
News letters will break the bank, that is a fact. I have been a member of several different org. and news letters have always been a sore topic within the membership. If your going to have an electronic news letter, you better have a good and up to date website that members can go to. Not all members like to hang out on computers, as Al stated, having that hard copy you can carry around is invaluable. Like a good magazine, it will get reread several times, the pages will become ragged and dogeared, it will be put up for future references and reread again. I like a hard copy myself, but I do realize the expense. It is something that any org. has to settle with.
Dues and membership. Why must someone be an associate member first ? If I pay my dues in full, why shouldn't I be afforded all the amenities of a regular member ?  Why must I be sponsored ?  I believe maybe changing items like this would be better then changing what you can bring to a shoot. I would also add making the meetings, banquets, shoot's etc. all members only. This would be for the benefit of the member's enjoyment and why they joined in the first place, to be around like minded folks, who feel that same unexplained feeling of traditional archery. After all, isn't it the, "Traditional Bowhunters of Georgia" ? Then make it for them, keep it for them. Others will come along, as we have, one at a time, not in droves of a hundred. This is not going to be a big org. it's not supposed to be. If your after money and
head count, then it's not what it was intended to be, close the doors. Promotion is good and it should be done at every chance affordable to the org. but not at the cost of changing the org. or it's mission. Forty permanent, happy members, scattered through out the state, is far better then 100 disgruntled, who will only be members one time. The most important part of every org. is the core of it's mission, do not stray from that trail, no matter what. I myself, like to know what any org. goal is, before I join them. TBG's goals, that I have seen here lately, has a few conflicts of interest. Perhaps now is a good time for the members to stand back and look a few things over and reevaluate their core mission, then address them to the officers. As I thought their goals were to promote hunting with traditional tackle, from a traditional archery crowd, not to satisfy the whims of every bow shooter out there.  Traditional shoots in the off season and traditional hunts, fellowship meetings, banquets for members only, updated website, with forums for members are just a few items that will keep a member active in an org. More can be added or built on as needed, or wanted. I believe the TBG to be a good way for like minded folks to congregate, but you really need to keep it traditional only, all of it.
Just some random thoughts from a would be member. I hope I haven't come across mean or weird or anything, I do much better with words around a camp fire in the woods.


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## LanceColeman (Sep 6, 2010)

WOW! this TBG thread is turnin out like the last TBG thread cept this time I'm not playin devils advocate for a change........yet

What if I don't have a puter to read the news letter on?? Are you gonna email the news letter or post it to an online website. If you post it to an online website how do you keep nonmembers from reading it.

The biggest perk to almost every club or org is the lil newsletters. they like a mini magazine of people you actually kNOW in areas you are actually aware exist! And yes. they are also a serious financial strain....

Because as of now you can go to a hunt.. and not be a member
Go to a shoot.......... and not be a member
and if ya put the newsletter on a website you can read the news letter.......... and not be a member.

So tell me again. why do I want to be a member?? what are my perks??

OH!! thats right...it's nt about perks.... it's to be around like minded individuals.. no wait I can do that without being a member
how about to promote traditional bowhunting..... well.... there's that membership thing again.
how about to "SUPPORT" an orginization about traditional bowhunting...... well OK!! now give me a reason to support it.

YA GOTTA BUILD A FIRE in the peoples bellies somehow.

add a shoot, spice up the shoots, add a venue, add a hunt, come up with some reason some way some how to INVOLVE more members and make others want to be a part. create drive in people to have them WANT to be a part and WANT to actually help out...

Because the "allow nonmembers to shoot and hunt on TBG events" has bitcha in the butt. yes you've introduced them. but you've given them no reason to fork out cash to buy in. Why not atleast............. yes you can shoot as  a non  member but your entrance fee is 25-35% more than a members fee. How about some of the more crafted and skilled individuals actually make or build neat trophies to give out?? Thatw ay even though the many that do not compete and only shoot for fun can still do that, but that younger competition type crowd would have a reward and reason to show up.

I know alot of the old oaks of the TBG forest wish to see no change, don't want to add anything new, and do not wish to see any rules changed, values altered, or traditions stepped on.

And thats fine...... but TBG will die right along with ya. (sometimes the truth is brutal)

I don't mean to sound harsh, don't mean to be the naysayer, hate being devils advocate. And just like the last TBG thread I'll say it on this one as well. I am actually looking for a reason to actually rejoin the org. I left because of the way I was treated and the direction and way the club was ran...... And right now?? well it definately looks no better than it did back then thats for sure. 

One thing I will say though is never have I saw more people actually act concerned or willing to discuss the issues of the org and actually look for a solution...... well now....... that is truly a step in the right direction.


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## Elbow (Sep 6, 2010)

What would we do without the "brutal" honesty of Lance Coleman?
You made some fine points brudda. I think change is good, sometimes, with a little nostalgia still in the mix then it's a good fit.

I like the non-members suggestion you made.  I think someone said, earlier in this thread, about having to be an associate member before you become a member wasn't necessary, well, I can see both sides of that argument, I hate to have to wait for someone to sponsor me before I'm really a member.

I didn't have to with BHU in California, just paid up and now I'm a member; we also have honorary members, who have plaques put up in their honor and are discounted on their dues as well...just a side note.

So, good suggestions, who has the guts to get the ball rolling???
El


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## Elbow (Sep 6, 2010)

I'm not sure what turmoil they would cause, unless they are just giving their opinion, I don't consider that turmoil.  And that's just me expressing my opinion. I'm not knocking your opinion just wondering if we can get everyone in sync on some issues.

I'm not buying the trial period thingy to fit into certain philosophies... Papa.....I think it is more of an abiding and adhering to the bylaws? If I'm not mistaken? 

Well, I've given my input on this thread enough...I hope we can all make it a good fit for everyone...it is truly a great group of folks on here.

Happy Labor Day to all of you!
El


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## Shane Whitlock (Sep 6, 2010)

Before the threads turns into a horse beating, let's think about moving forward. Several good ideas have been proposed, so whats next. How about voting on some of these issues and getting them in motion.


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## LanceColeman (Sep 6, 2010)

Ya know what Jack,

I just typed out probably close to 1000 word response to your post.........And just deleted it.

 Thank you Jack. Thankyou very much for your opinion and insightfulness on the issues at hand with the TBG. You are truly an oak in the ranks of the orginization.

Peace be with you, and good luck in the future endeavors of TBG.

Don't worry HH, my dad taught me long ago, when the horse drops dead, get off and walk.


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## fflintlock (Sep 6, 2010)

PAPALAPIN said:


> If someone joins as an associate member gets active, and does not cause turmoil in the organization, any regular member will stand up and sponsor them as long as they are willing to make the commitment to hunt trad only when bowhunting.
> 
> The associate membrship is sort of a trial period to be sure you will fit in with the philosophies of the organization.
> 
> ...



Jack,
 I was thinking out loud of what I was looking for in a traditional Org. As a non member, I would never try to change it to what I wanted. I have no inside info of what actually goes on in this Org. I know quit a few folks that are members and will take their word on it.  It seems to be a decent Org. and I would not mind being a part of it.


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## dutchman (Sep 6, 2010)

HOUND-HANDLER said:


> Before the threads turns into a horse beating, let's think about moving forward. Several good ideas have been proposed, so whats next. How about voting on some of these issues and getting them in motion.



I fear that the most important thing we could do at this point, which concerns the newsletter, may have to wait until next year's banquet to be voted on.

I think that the discussion to this point has been healthy. We need good ideas from our membership. It doesn't hurt to have the opinions of former members and would be members included in the discussion as well. You never know when or where a good idea will show up.


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## PAPALAPIN (Sep 6, 2010)

My comments are not aimed at any particualr individual

Maybe I'm just getting to be an old codger that shouldn't be postin here.

I don't want to cause problems for the TBG with non members, so I will appologize for my comments and will go back and delete them all.

I will tell you that anytime someone posts this topic on an open forum, I can tell you what direction it will take.


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## fflintlock (Sep 6, 2010)

"Maybe I'm just getting to be an old codger that shouldn't be postin here."

Old codgers welcomed here any time, Jack


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## rastaman (Sep 6, 2010)

*add a shoot, spice up the shoots, add a venue, add a hunt, come up with some reason some way some how to INVOLVE more members and make others want to be a part. create drive in people to have them WANT to be a part and WANT to actually help out...
*

I just read this post for the first time.  The above text from Lance pretty much sums up what needs to be done.  We talked about a few things at the banquet...i think a "Dan Quillian Memorial Rendevous" was discussed.  An event like that promoted properly should be HUGE not only for the state but the southeast.  
We talked about updating the website and keeping it current.  This is being worked on, and i think is one of the most important things we can do in the short term.


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## Shane Whitlock (Sep 6, 2010)

I don't have a copy of the bylaws, but do we have to wait until next years banquet to vote on these items? If so, we need to set aside, sufficent time for the business meeting. What I mean is that we have plenty of time to vote on all these new ideas on the agenda, so nothing get's put on the backburner til next year.

I hope I haven't jumped the gun, I'm just a greenhorn and excited aboutTBG. I enjoy the guys here and very thankful to get knownledge from those who have been there and done that. I just want to see TBG get better and willing to do whatever is necessary.  I just can stand to think that all we do is talk about it and not do it, and I know that I am impatient when it comes down to things like this. Maybe,it my generation. I am just ready to see some progress. Shane


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## RogerB (Sep 7, 2010)

I like the TBG, and I like the people in the TBG, but there are some of the rules the TBG has that IMHO make no sense at all and certainly limit the membership.
Like "If you ever hunt with a compound, you can't be a full member. I'm sorry but what's that about. We are recruting new members and (it makes "US" feel good when someone says they are going trad only) we make a rule like that. Are we afraid they will go back, do we think they are doing something wrong, are their ideas and their fellowship second rate? Where do we get new members, from compounders that want to try trad. Last year we had a full member, that had to give up his membership because he was going on a big expensive hunt, that required long shots and chose to take his compound. We get accused of looking down on "wheelie" bow shooters, and that makes us so mad we could spit, yet me make a rule like that.
Oh yea, then we say you have to shoot a 450 grain arrow or you aren't shooting a...... I don't know what it means. I've been told that we are the Traditional "BOWHUNTERS" of Georgia is the reason and if you aren't shooting a 450 grain arrow you aren't shooting enough weight to hunt. I'm sorry but that is droppings from the south end of a north bound bovine. There isn't a rabbit in the country that can stand up to one of my 415 grain arrows with a sharp BH. The point is to hunt what? Elephants, maybe 415 isn't enough. You say we hunt deer! well my arrows are as efficent as a 450gr arrow from a heaver bow than I shoot, if it isn't tuned as well as I tune mine. Oh, Oh, there is a new rule we can make, "If your bow isn't tuned as well as WE think it should be, you can't be a member.
How 'bout the elevated rest rule, they aren't traditional you say, they have been around longer than carbon arrows, but we allow them. Maybe we should only allow wood arrows, wonder how many new members that would bring us.
When I go to TBG shoots and hunts I carry the same equiptment, and my bows have elevated rests. When I sign in (and pay my money) I tell every one that I am disqualified because I am shooting an illegal bow. I attend because I want to fellowship with the folks I know there and it is worth it to be there and not shoot in the competition, but I wonder how many members that rule costs us. When I get on other "Traditional" forums, it is pretty clear here in the south is the only place it is common to not allow elevated rest in their shoots. How do they handle it, another class.
Here is a suggestion, Let's have one of our shoots be a IBO shoot. That way folks that wanted to attend the IBO Trad Worlds would know what to expect and would have shot an IBO round. I bet there are some that would come to our shoot to do that. Oh yea, that would force us to change some of our rules and add some classes, I guess that's just not traditional enough for us. Or maybe it would require us to take alitte of the "trash" (that we so dearly love)out of the way of some our shots. Would any of us take many of the shots while hunting that we set up at our shoots? Oh, but we like those "trashy" shots, and we love that "long" shot or two. I thouht we were the Traditional BOWHUNTERS of Georgia, seems to me realistic HUNTING shots would be what we would have.
Remember, the definition of insanity, " Continuning to do the same thing, and expecting a different out come.
We can ride our old way of thinking to a selfritious death if we wish.
Spending money on the newsletter is NOT the problem, and If we chose to stop it for the reason suggested in this thread, we just put another nail in NGTs coffin. On the other hand if we just don't want it anymore, let's get rid of it.
And the last thing, what's this rule that you have to be a associate member, in good standing, for one year before you can be a full member and vote. Are we afraid them young whipper snappers will join and out vote us before we can change them to our way of thinking.
And the best one I have heard yet is............"We we couldn't allow that because it would violate our bylaws".
My suggestion, Let's open our arms to people that shoot bows without wheels on them (at our events), and become the open minded dynamic organization TBG can be.
I realize I have rambled alot, been abit sarcastic, and there are alternative views on many of the things I've said. I really don't wish to argue any of it, and if that is what someone wants to do, well they have missed the point. The point is, we have to change to survive. That is the way of the world, it is called evolution!!


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## kirby999 (Sep 7, 2010)

RogerB said:


> I like the TBG, and I like the people in the TBG, but there are some of the rules the TBG has that IMHO make no sense at all and certainly limit the membership.
> Like "If you ever hunt with a compound, you can't be a full member. I'm sorry but what's that about. We are recruting new members and (it makes "US" feel good when someone says they are going trad only) we make a rule like that. Are we afraid they will go back, do we think they are doing something wrong, are their ideas and their fellowship second rate? Where do we get new members, from compounders that want to try trad. Last year we had a full member, that had to give up his membership because he was going on a big expensive hunt, that required long shots and chose to take his compound. We get accused of looking down on "wheelie" bow shooters, and that makes us so mad we could spit, yet me make a rule like that.
> Oh yea, then we say you have to shoot a 450 grain arrow or you aren't shooting a...... I don't know what it means. I've been told that we are the Traditional "BOWHUNTERS" of Georgia is the reason and if you aren't shooting a 450 grain arrow you aren't shooting enough weight to hunt. I'm sorry but that is droppings from the south end of a north bound bovine. There isn't a rabbit in the country that can stand up to one of my 415 grain arrows with a sharp BH. The point is to hunt what? Elephants, maybe 415 isn't enough. You say we hunt deer! well my arrows are as efficent as a 450gr arrow from a heaver bow than I shoot, if it isn't tuned as well as I tune mine. Oh, Oh, there is a new rule we can make, "If your bow isn't tuned as well as WE think it should be, you can't be a member.
> How 'bout the elevated rest rule, they aren't traditional you say, they have been around longer than carbon arrows, but we allow them. Maybe we should only allow wood arrows, wonder how many new members that would bring us.
> ...



Ditto , everything Roger just said . IMO ,  Let's embrace anyone that chooses to shoot without wheels . also elevated rest have been around awhile . If I could shoot with one , I would . kirby


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## Melvin Edwards (Sep 7, 2010)

For those who don't know me, I'm the Editor of the TBG newsletter, the guy who's "sucking the life" out of TBG.  Did you think how that might make me feel when you posted boys?

Here's some fact for you guys to consider.

TBG has never charged an advertising fee.  We have ALWAYS exchanged ads in the newsletter for MERCHANDISE for our fundraising banquet.  The value as best I can figure it of the items donated in exchange for ads for this year's banquet was roughly $2,900.  And that's unusually low.  America's a tough town right now.

Because of this policy, the cost of the newsletter shows as an expense with no offsetting revenue unless you understand how TBG works.  The revenue shows up as BANQUET revenue.  If not for these merchandise donations, we'd simply being swapping our own stuff around.  We're doing a lot of that now.

We could produce an inexpensive newsletter, but the LEADERSHIP of TBG continues to believe that a quality newsletter is important.  Try getting someone to donate an expensive raffle item in exchange for an ad in a publication that looks shoddy and cheap.

Instead of running down the newsletter, let me suggest that you instead take your HARD PRINTED copy to your local archery dealer (you buy from someone, don't you?) and tell them about our Youth Program, and how an ad in our newsletter will help us continue with the efforts that we pour into that program.  Tell them that those efforts are the reasons that we deserve their support.  Then explain that a merchandise donation will get them an ad in the next four issues.

I know this works because I've done it.  Chuck Evans and I sat down with Steve Robinson and convinced him to donate an $800 hunt to our raffle.  Every year I get about $100 or so in merchandise from Franklin's of Athens.  The guys who make the blob targets donated after I used this approach with them.  Zwickey donated because someone got them interested some years ago, and because I mail them a newsletter and a letter asking for their support.

As for the cost:  I ran this edition of newsletters for a cost of $750.  It has full color all through it, and looks pretty sharp.  I have in hand a quote for the same print job from FEDEX OFFICE Robert C Daniels Parkway, Augusta, Ga.  for the total of $1,613.03

Now, as to the website.  I invite everyone to visit it.  Nothing's been updated in over a year.  All I hear is the website, the website, the website.  Truth is the cursed thing is doing more harm than good.  Anyone checking it would conclude that perhaps TBG has had the "life sucked out of it" and is dead.

Folks have talked, but nobody's stepped up and done Jack Stuff with the Website in more than a year.

There have been some good ideas discussed on this thread.  Things that we need to do.  Truth is, all we need is for more people to step up and do something POSITIVE.  Here's a challenge for you guys.  For every great idea that you've posted, take your newsletter to a retailer and explain what TBG is, talk about our youth program, and ASK FOR A DONATION FOR OUR FUND RAISING BANQUET.  Next time you're in Franklin's, tell the clerks that you saw their ad in our newsletter, and that you appreciate their support.  BUY SOMETHING FROM OUR SPONSORS.  Volunteer to flip some burgers at our next event.  Recruit a new member.  Call a new member and welcome them to TBG.  Offer them a ride to the next event.

In conclusion, I've tried to be positive, to explain some things that obviously some of you were not aware of, but I'm getting sick and tired of feeling that I have to defend the newsletter.  There are only a handful of you discussing this on this forum.  That would tell those of you who are thoughtful that about 90% of TBG members are keeping up with TBG events with the newsletter that lands in their mailbox like clockwork EVERY QUARTER.  I'll be very happy to take anyone off the mailing list who asks me in writing, but don't look for a ton of money to be saved.  I'm hard at work trying to get the newsletter on line at this time.  It will be an edited edition because some things included in our organizations newsletter just doesn't belong on a public site.  

Keep making comments about the newsletter "sucking the life out of TBG", and someone will have volunteered to be the new Editor, and will have the unenviable task of figuring out how to get the newsletter printed for 46% of fair market pricing.


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## matt schuster (Sep 7, 2010)

All of a sudden this seems to be a rehash of the last TBG thread . . . Some clarity from an old TBG guy who is no longer an officer and does not speak in any official capacity - first, TBG is not in any financial trouble.     Every year, at the banquet, it appears that we are because of the way the finances are structured.     As long as the raffle goes ok, the financial trouble goes away, and that has always happened, and happened this year.

Second, please don't let what any one individual says about TBG, in support of, or against, sway you too much.   There are a lot of individual opinions out there.   There are guys who think compounds should be outlawed, and others who target shoot but only rifle hunt, etc, etc, etc. . .   and it is sad how often someone lets someone else hurt their feelings when no individual is TBG,  and that includes me.     I think these discussions are healthy overall.

Third, once again, TBG has always welcomed any individual member no matter what they shoot.   The by-laws were written the way they were written because when TBG was formed there were a lot of guys hunting with compounds but shooting foam with tradbows and the guys who started TBG wanted the essence to remain around hunting so they put in the two-tiered membership to keep TBG from becoming a target/tournament oriented outfit.   Love it or hate it, there was a reason for it.   Is it necessary now - maybe, maybe not, but not joining is sure not a way to change anything.    After all, the only thing a non-reg can't do is vote or hold office, and judging from how many folks actually vote in elections, voting isn't deemed all that important by most folks.     

As for shoots,  TBG modeled there rules based on hunting equipment.    A person is very welcome to shoot a light arrow, an elevated rest, three-fingers under, sight-pins, or any other way they want at a TBG shoot - they just can't win the shoot.    Shouldn't those few who actually want to compete (the vast minority at our shoots!) shoot using some sort of standard rules??   Again, all are welcome to come have fun, eat the free food, etc - TBG is very open-minded about that.    

I, like Kirby, am not trying to argue, just giving some history, and I hope some perspective, because the TBG protrayed on the internet is not the one I know.     Too often, what one member will say gets taken as the spoken word of TBG and it just should not be like that.   TBG is a big group and includes members with lots of differing views.

I hope anyone reading this who is considering a membership will go ahead and join.    You will make some of the best friends on earth.   They may not always agree with you, but they will stand beside you.

I hope


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## Melvin Edwards (Sep 7, 2010)

Schuster must have been typing at the same time I was.  Now that's scary!  But as usual Ole Smoothie has it right.  You'll have to forgive me, I'm just a little mad right now.  "sucking the life out of TBG".  That's a tough one to get over.   ........and next time you see Bodemon, better stay well back from him, cause once I tell him bout this, he's gonna bite your butt!


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## Jake Allen (Sep 7, 2010)

Melvin Edwards said:


> Schuster must have been typing at the same time I was.  Now that's scary!  But as usual Ole Smoothie has it right.  You'll have to forgive me, I'm just a little mad right now.  "sucking the life out of TBG".  That's a tough one to get over.   ........and next time you see Bodemon, better stay well back from him, cause once I tell him bout this, he's gonna bite your butt!



Mr. Edwards, thanks for your response.

to clairify
"I can see the newsletter as it is distributed, is sucking the financial life from this fine organization."

"I"; this being the thought of one person only, (me).
The thought being not the newsletter, nor creator, nor publisher thereof, is sucking the life out of TBG, only the way the newsletter is being _distributed_ is costly.
According to the Financial Report,
over 2/3's, of the operating budget for 2010, went to the newsletter, to which, I can only _assume_ distribution is the lion's share. 
According to the same report, operating expenses for 2010 exceded income for the same period by
roughly 1/3, or several thousand dollars.
Seeing these numbers, and being the simpleton redneck I am, biggrin2, I can only assume, (not knowing the longterm financial history of TBG), the club is not as healthy financially as I would hope.

Melvin the newsletter is great; I love reading it! 
You are a very talented writer, motivator, editor and organizer, plus  your valuable time poured into every issue, leaves me in awe. I ain't never been around anyone with that kind of talent, much less had the pleasure to share a campfire with them. 

I reckon I will need to bring a fine steak to the next event, for BoDemon.


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## Melvin Edwards (Sep 7, 2010)

You better bring me one too.


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## PAPALAPIN (Sep 7, 2010)

I'll bring yours Melvin


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## Jake Allen (Sep 7, 2010)

Melvin Edwards said:


> You better bring me one too.



Consider it done sir; all the fixin's as well.


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## RogerB (Sep 7, 2010)

matt schuster said:


> As for shoots,  TBG modeled there rules based on hunting equipment.    A person is very welcome to shoot a light arrow, an elevated rest, three-fingers under, sight-pins, or any other way they want at a TBG shoot - they just can't win the shoot.    Shouldn't those few who actually want to compete (the vast minority at our shoots!) shoot using some sort of standard rules??   Again, all are welcome to come have fun, eat the free food, etc - TBG is very open-minded about that.




My point is: all those rules have nothing to do with hunting! If that was so, women and children shouldn't be allowed to hunt, after all they don't have to shoot a 450 grain arrow. 
And, there is thead after thread that says the most important thing about making a clean kill is arrow placement, If someone can shoot better with an elevated rest or three fingers under that has everything to do with hunting. Or do you think only people that shoot off the shelf should be allowed to hunt or can be effective hunters.

No those rules are set up to address how a group of people want to and do hunt or shoot, not how someone should hunt or does hunt. You are not stopping anyone that doesn't hunt with trad equiptment from competing, you are just stopping people that don't hunt like you, from competing. Plenty of people that shoot but don't hunt use 450 grain arrows and shoot off the shelf. Maybe we should make people display a hunting license before they register for a shoot.

Like I said and will continue to say, the 450 grain arrow rule has "NOTHING" to do with hunting, shooting off the shelf has "NOTHING" to do with hunting, and shooting three fingers under has"NOTHING" to do with hunting; and NO ONE EVER says it does, until they are discussing TBG tourny rules and then it is just the people that made them and shoot like that. Show me one thread (outside this context) were someone was told "you really shouldn't be taking those 440 grain arrows to the woods, never mind that you are drawing 65 pounds 30 1/2 inches." Or,"three fingers under!!!!, I can't believe you would be so unethical as to hunt using three fingers under". Or better yet,"ELEVATED REST!!, why I think I call the DNR and see if I can get your hunting rights taken away".

Certainly, I believe in rules. Like I said when I come to shoot I either bring a bow that is set up to meet the rules (by the way it is not one I hunt with) or when I pay my money I disqualify myself (because I brought my hunting bow, and it doesn't meet the rules).

If you want to say,"There our rules, we get to make them and if you don't like them tough" that's fine, and it's the truth, but stop using hunting as a justification for them, it just don't hold water.


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## Al33 (Sep 7, 2010)

I'm glad there is so much interest in TBG. That's a good thing, right?


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## Dennis (Sep 7, 2010)

Now don't be silly, I like the rules the way they are and they are that way for a reason. I don't have any problems with TBG but from the info we got in the last news letter it looked like the newsletter is a expence that we need to look at reducing maybe just have it twice a year. Melvin does a great job with it and cutting it down to twice a year would cut his work down too. But if Matt says it's been that way every year and were still here maybe everything is cool.  Lord knows he's been doing this longer than all of us.
Melvin if you will read my post more carefully i never said anything about you. And you know i always have a steak for you but im just going to pet your dogs, I don't think i can afford to feed them. Unless they help me find a critter then i will give him your steak 
 What i can't believe is the people that don't understand the rule about the regular membership and the assoc. membership it is very simple and it allows anybody to be a member no matter what they shoot


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## dutchman (Sep 7, 2010)

The financial page certainly portrays a troubling situation, taking it at face value, which is all that can be expected.


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## Al33 (Sep 7, 2010)

Hang in there boys, only four more days and we can kill a big critter. Maybe that will help everyone get their minds on hunting. I have been making sure my arras are flying true and sharpening broad heads today. Lots of stuff to do between now and Satdee and I'm pumped.


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## dutchman (Sep 7, 2010)

Al33 said:


> My daddy can whoop your daddy.



It ain't that bad, Al.

I think there has been some good comments here that should not be swept aside simply because somebody got their feelings out on their sleeve.

A good working website can't be a bad thing, can it?

Being concerned about the financial well being of an organization to which you belong can't be a bad thing, can it?

An electronic newsletter on a website with a member log in can't be a bad thing, can it?

A little change here and there, more or less can't all be bad, can it?


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## Jake Allen (Sep 7, 2010)

dutchman said:


> The financial page certainly portrays a troubling situation, taking it at face value, which is all that can be expected.



I assumed, this current statement reflects income from
the 2009 banquet, therefore an accurate reflection of the
situation.
If there is an expected windfall, well then, that will be
a good deal.


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## dutchman (Sep 7, 2010)

Jake Allen said:


> I assumed, this current statement reflects income from
> the 2009 banquet, therefore an accurate reflection of the
> situation.
> If there is an expected windfall, well then, that will be
> a good deal.



Then the dates on the financial page are incorrect...


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## Jake Allen (Sep 7, 2010)

dutchman said:


> It ain't that bad, Al.
> 
> I think there has been some good comments here that should not be swept aside simply because somebody got their feelings out on their sleeve.
> 
> ...



I agree sir.
I see comments from folks that care about our sport, the folks involved our sport, and the organizations promoting our sport. 

To quote a wise man, and a fine fellar, who said as he was pulling out of my yard last night, "Some of the BOPE, (best people on earth)". (Speaking of course, about folks in
Traditional Archery).


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## Al33 (Sep 7, 2010)

dutchman said:


> It ain't that bad, Al.
> 
> I think there has been some good comments here that should not be swept aside simply because somebody got their feelings out on their sleeve.
> 
> ...



Of course it's not Gene, I was just trying to lower the thermostat among a few dear friends. The posts I was replying to along with my own post that you quoted have been removed so the quote does not make since like it did prior to the posts being removed.

I did not get my copy of the newsletter but it is my understanding the financial report "may" have been a bit misleading, thus the reasons for all the concerns. I am glad members are concerned and agree that many good ideas have been put forth. If everyone just sat back and kept their opinions to themselves that would not be a good thing. Naturally, new members to TBG are not going to be familiar with it's history and why some things are the way they are so it has to be a continuing education process. I do not see anything wrong with a new member or a potential member asking questions and/or making proposals.

I am confident this thread and all the "constructive" comments will serve the interests and well being of TBG.


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## dpoole (Sep 8, 2010)

will be glad to host a tbg shoot in Schley County if there is any interest. Located 60 miles north of Albany 50 miles east of Columbus. 120 miles south of Atlanta. Primitive camping only.


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## matt schuster (Sep 8, 2010)

Sorry about the 3-fingers under mistake, I don't know where I got that. . I shoot 3-fingers under two, but am not likely to win any tournaments no matter how I shoot!

Roger - I am just telling you why the rules are the way they are - I don't necessarily disagree with you.    There are folks who feel strongly about arrow weight, broadhead-type, etc.   I am not one of them so I ain't gonna fight with you.   I don't give a hoot what someone else hunts with and don't shoot care about shoots at all.   My point is simply that TBG is a lot more open than sometimes comes across on the internet, period.    Members who want rule changes need to work for them beyond a few posts on the internet.   Rarely do any show up and suggest changes at the membership meeting.   They don't write articles or letters to the newsletter supporting change.    When I was an officer, which I was for most of TBG's life, I had maybe one phone call about a change.   That is it.     It seems that a handful get on the internet every time a TBG thread comes up and wants change, but it seems to end there.     And change could be good.  Many of the ideas here are great, and I personally would support some of the changes, but this one forum is tiny, and most members don't get on here.    

The world is a much different place than when TBG was founded by a bunch of hard-core traditional bowhunters.    Equipment is better, and the internet has made it easier for like-minded folks to find each other.    If anyone on here really wants change, and some of you seem pretty passionate about it - write a letter, get some other members to petition the officers, don't stop here on the internet because that won't change anything.


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## DAGATOR16 (Sep 8, 2010)

Melvin you do an awesome job. Don't you let any of this "get your goat"! 
Not looking for a reply. As I tell my wife, "just keep swimming".
                  * quote from Finding Nemo *


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## dutchman (Sep 8, 2010)

matt schuster said:


> The world is a much different place than when TBG was founded by a bunch of hard-core traditional bowhunters.    Equipment is better, and the internet has made it easier for like-minded folks to find each other.    If anyone on here really wants change, and some of you seem pretty passionate about it - write a letter, get some other members to petition the officers, don't stop here on the internet because that won't change anything.



Since the world is a much different place now as opposed to when TBG started, and since the internet is now an accepted means of communicating ideas and such, and since TBG does not currently have a functional web page with up to date information contained thereon, would it be too much to expect that the current officers of TBG, who are all members of this forum now that our editor has registered here, could get information and ideas from this forum and use it as a means of facilitating some of the changes that these ideas suggest?

If the TBG website was updated, I'm sure that it could be used as a ready means of 180 degree communication between officers and members. But since that isn't an option currently, why not use this forum and the threads that have been posted about TBG and the workings thereof as a vehicle to move these ideas toward fruition?


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## dutchman (Sep 8, 2010)

dpoole said:


> will be glad to host a tbg shoot in Schley County if there is any interest. Located 60 miles north of Albany 50 miles east of Columbus. 120 miles south of Atlanta. Primitive camping only.



There you go! A Southern Zone shoot in the making. I'd volunteer to swing by and pick up a target trailer and come the day before to help set up.


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## matt schuster (Sep 8, 2010)

It is good, Al.    But those suggesting changes on here need to keep in mind that they may find out they are in the vast minority if this stuff ever actually gets to a vote.    A few postings does not a majority make.    Change won't come easily because there are only two ways to change the by-laws - a majority vote of the regular members, or a unanimous vote of the officers.    Again, I am making no judgements on any of the suggestions above.    Some are very good, but 90% of the members don't care about the shoot rules, or the by-laws, they just want to shoot a few arrows, have a good time, read the newsletter, and go to the banquet.   Getting them to even vote is not easy, much less vote for change.      

I'm also a little unsure if this is the proper forum for serious discussions on any issues with officers.    My biggest concern is that the written word tends to come across more seriously than the spoken word and folks get their feelings hurt.   It is much easier to smile and find common ground in person or when one has more time to reflect,  such as when one writes a petition or letter.   I used to really enjoy arguing on these forums and frankly, am pretty good at it.    A few of the posts above, I could absolutely hammer with logic and factual information.   I could also be very sarcastic and  have fun "getting" someone - but what good would that do besides possibly alienate and run off a good person - been there, done that, and won't do it again.    It is not a constructive way to do business when really, we are all on the same side and want a productive, active, and financially-sound organization.    There is an election coming up - maybe if enough members want specific changes they can suggest to the officers to put them on the ballot.

My two cents, worth exactly that.   I am hitting the road so probably won't be back on here.   Anyone who wants to hammer me, or pick anything I've said apart, feel free. . . I am not a sensitive man.    If you wonder why I won't hit back, reread the post.   I've lost one friend through internet postings and won't lose another one - much more fun to make them.


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## Jake Allen (Sep 8, 2010)

You are a wise man Schuster, (at least you type as one, ). Thank you sir.

I fall into the 90% that like to shoot arrows, and have a good time.
I will vote though, and continue my support of TBG.


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## PAPALAPIN (Sep 8, 2010)

Schuster is hitting the road...OK...who is she?


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## Mudfeather (Sep 8, 2010)

He is actually.......Get this......You are NOT gonna believe it.......


Ready??????

HE IS WORKING!!!!


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## PAPALAPIN (Sep 8, 2010)

Yeah, right...and I am gonna get Bambi's Grampa on Saturday


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## SELFBOW (Sep 8, 2010)

Well I had quoted a members comment then decided to just post without it knowing darn well I was only going to "hurt" someone's feelings and my post would have been deleted anyway.

I will just say that I do not want to join TBG right now based on specifically certain "older" members attitudes. They probably don't even hunt much less kill anything anymore so I don't understand "the attitude" they have being they don't represent  TBG in 2010 cept they vote.
They fall into the "has been" category but feel the need to degrade anyone that doesnt do or act like they did or wish they still could .

I do not really even know what the TBG is.
My total knowledge of traditional archery is thanks to Al getting this subforum started on here. I can get all the info I need and go to any gathering/shoot by reading this forum.

So again I ask "What is in the TBG for me?" when everything needed is right here at Woody's?


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## matt schuster (Sep 9, 2010)

Buckbacks -  this forum, tradgang, stickbow, etc have definitely had an effect on all bowhunting clubs.    It used to be that to meet other like-minded folks, you had to go look for them.    TBG, honestly, doesn't offer anything to you beyond another chance to make a few friends or to give back a little by teaching in the youth program, etc.    Most of the members that are active joined to give, not to get.    Give their friendship, their advice, some of their time, etc.   Personally,  I have made some of the best friends a man could have through TBG, and I am one of the old guys who still hunts and kills way more than the average guy, I need all the friends I can get to help drag out the critters. . . lol.   Some of us still kill plenty, we just don't put it all over the internet.    

My biggest fear about forums like these is that non-members get a very limited view of TBG, but that is just the way it is, unfortunately.     One or two TBG members can get defensive (although I didn't see anyone really degrading anyone, but I read through pretty fast) and it reflects poorly on the whole organization.    That is too bad, because it is a great outfit and does a lot of good.     My personal view is that the one big change that needs to be made is to do away with the split membership.     Looking in from the outside, if I was a new, passionate, stickbow shooter, I might have a problem joining an organization in which I couldn 't vote.   I have previously explained why the rule was placed, and the it was a legitimate concern at the time, but not really anymore - at least in my view.    It is very easy to look at any organization and poke at particular issues.   No outfit is perfect, but the good in TBG far outweighs any negative issues. 

I would also suggest to anyone that if you really want to hammer someone, send them a private email.   Doing it on the internet, while it may make you feel like you really got someone, it doesn't accomplish a whole lot and really just dirties everyone.

Anyway, I have probably killed this thread, so to all of you - hope you have a great opening day!!   I am done with this one..


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## matt schuster (Sep 9, 2010)

Darn, I have to start proofreading.   First I used "two" instead of "too" and left an extra word in the post above . . . I am getting old.


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## RogerB (Sep 9, 2010)

Just one more bit of history about TBG, for the last two years I have said I would host a shoot (either in the North zone or the Central Zone, not sure where the line is) the first thing I was told was "there's already a shoot in the North and Central zones" to which I asked why can't there be two. I was told there's supposed to be four shoots a year, one in each zone and the state shoot, that's all. The first year I said I would be happy to host a shoot, I was also told, well you are not a member yet, so TBG would not trust you with the Trailer, I asked well if I do all the work why can't a member be the host of record, NO ANSWER. The second year (after I became a member) I asked again, to which I was told, your not a FULL member, you won't be trusted with the Trailer. Same question, same answer, NONE! 
I quit asking. I have kept that to myself in the past, but now that we have been challanged "to do something", I just wanted to let you know I consider that an empty challange.
So you see, TBG doesn't want change and as Matt so clearly pointed out, they have set up a system that allows them to block any change. You will never get a majority of the regular members to vote for it, A MAJORITY DOESN'T EVEN VOTE, so it's up to the officers,and you'll never get ALL the officers to vote for it, that's not the way they shoot! Isn't it interesting that, they tell you here is what you have to do to effect change, "but it won't work". Thank-you Matt for telling me to "stop waisting my time".
What I and others have suggested in this thread, are really no big deal to implement, they would cost TBG nothing. I simply think there are other very efficent (perhaps more so than what is allowed at TBG shoots "if you want to compete") hunting equiptment options, that could easily be addressed with another "Class". But as Matt said, that's not going to happen, as he said some of the officers are too passionate about their opinions.
I will also say that when members of an organization ask a legitimet question, about the finiances of that organizaton, based on published information by that organization, and are answered with a physical harm threat for doing so, something is bad wrong.
I will continue to attend (as long as it is "allowed") selected TBG events, but not as a member, to socialize, hunt and shoot with my friends. I'm not so stupid as to cut my own throat. However, if the "Host" of a TBG event wants to PM me and ask me not to attend their event, I will honor that request.
This thread has made it clear to me, that TBG offers me nothing as a "Member", and as a "Member" I will be allowed to offer TBG nothing.
As I sit here reading Buckbacks post and rereading mine, I can hear the old guard saying "If you don't like it, go somewhere else", people that is exactly what people are doing, and that's (as I pointed out in an earlier post) what is killing TBG, not the cost of producing a newsletter, which you do a great job of Melvin (even though I only got one last year). What does the commercial say "It's like turning off the OPEN sign to save electricity".
I also disagree with the earlier statement that the economy has anything to do with it, the cost to shoot "is not the limiting factor". If TBG wants to be the "TRADITIONAL BOWHUNTERS OF GEORGIA" they need to represent the ENTIRE Traditional Bowhunters of Georgia community, not just the ones that want to hunt with the same equiptment they do.


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## PAPALAPIN (Sep 9, 2010)

BUCKBACKS

Am I the “has been” old farte whose attitude is keeping you out of the TBG?  If so, I want to thank you for your post.

As I stated before, I knew where this thread would be heading...alwasy does.   I had hopes that it would die off before I got my dander up enough to jump back in...oh well...

I said that I don’t want to cause problems between the TBG and non-members.   Now that you have made it personal, I have no problem causing problems between “some non-members” like you, and me.

DISCLAIMER:  The following comments reflect my personal views only, and not that of any other member or officer of the TBG.

For the record, I do still hunt.  Maybe not as much as some of you young bucks, but I still hunt.   I also have some problems with the rules of the TBG.  The “only” thing on which I am “hard core” is “no wheelie bows” The TBG is the “Traditional Bowhunters of Georgia”.  It is not the “Bowhunters of Georgia”.  It is what it was originally organized as, and it is what it remains today.  It is what it is.

I, like many, do not agree with the ruling of no elevated rests, arrow weight, bow weight, sights, etc…  Who cares…not me.

However, the majority of the regular voting members have maintained these prohibitions, so I live with them.  When the majority of the regular members vote to change these things, they will change.

My pet peeve is non-members that chime in complaining about the philosophies, rules, and operation of the TBG.  You have already stated that you have no intention of joining.  So what I can't understand is what do you care about our rules, if you have no intention of joining, What do you care about our membership structure if you have no intention of joining,  What do you care about our financial condition if you have no intention of joining.   On the other hand, why should I care about your thoughts, wants, or attitude about the TBG, if you have no intention of joining?   You come in here and trash the older members that have contributed to the building of the organization more than you or other non-members ever will.  You come in here and trash our editor who works his butt off for free; you come in here and whine about what “you” don’t like about the TBG.  I don’t give a rats’ patootie about what you like or don’t like.   The TBG is an organization controlled by the membership for the membership, and in my opinion, your opinion does not matter.  

There have been some very good suggestions posted in this thread.   What I don’t see is very many people volunteering to work towards those suggestions, except dpoole volunteering to host a much needed Southern Zone shoot.   There have been many comments about our website, yet I don’t see anyone offering to update it.  All I see is YOU and others whining about what you don’t like about the TBG.  Who care what you don’t like.  If you don’t like the TBG, walk away from it,  go away,  please, best of luck in your traditional endeavors…somewhere else.   Make no mistake…this is aimed at BUCKBACKS…not necessarily anyone else.  I am all for recruiting new members, who are in sync with the philosophies of the TBG.  If they want to effect some changes, join up, spend a year as an associate member.  After this “trial period” if you agree to the basic philosophies of the TBG, you will have no trouble getting someone to sponsor you for regular membership.  Then you can vote and work for change.

We have a  two tiered membership for a reason.  It is to provide a one year “probationary period” to insure that insures that we keep our ranks free of members that are not in sync with the philosophies of the TBG.  In effect, it is to keep out selfish, egocentric, whiners like you.  I will be very disappointed if you ever get a regular member to sponsor you for membership.


So, if I am in fact the “has been” cantankerous old farte whose attitude is keeping you from joining…GOOD…it means I am doing my part in keeping guys like you out.

Your comment  “So again I ask "What is in the TBG for me?" when everything needed is right here at Woody's?”   

 My, answer…”Hopefully nothing”

If this post gets delegated, so be it..  You are the one that made it personal,  I just rebutted you post.


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## PAPALAPIN (Sep 9, 2010)

ROGER

Apparently you were making your post while I was writing mine, so this was not aimed at you.  I agree and disagree with some of you post.    As friends, I hope we can agree to disagree, but as far as you statement " I can hear the old guard saying "If you don't like it, go somewhere else",'   that is my position.  I would hope you will join and support the TBG rather than opting for the "free ride", but if not, God bless you anyway, and for my part I intend to remain friends.


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## Fatboy (Sep 9, 2010)

I don't have a dog in this fight but I just have to say something.I don't really know the two of you so I'm not making a statement about ya'll personally.Jack's attitude is one of the big reasons I don't belong anymore.If you don't give a rat's patootie about me or my opinions,well I don't want to be associated with you.If the majority of the old guard don't care either then why would I care to join.Seems to me that the club just doesn't care about the majority of the traditional bowhunters in this state.I know quite a few guys that absolutely love trad archery and bowhunting but don't care for the rules of your club so they don't join.That's the way it is supposed to be according to ya'll and that's okay.It only means you will never have but the old core members as the one's who'll always be there.No change and it will die one day.If ya'll are okay with that then disregard what I just typed.Probably will anyway.I'm not the most well liked guy around anyhow cause I've said some of these same things before.

Hope everyone has a great season, Greg Womack


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## RogerB (Sep 9, 2010)

PAPALAPIN,
I have no problem with agreeing to disagree (but I am not sure your position"If you don't like it, go somewhere else" supports that). Perhaps, if you said "If you can't follow the rules, go somewhere else"; or "If you can't live with the rules, go somewhere else", but to say "if you don't like it" gets to the root of the problem. Yes, I have clearly stated that I don't agree with the rules, but I also clearly stated that I either follow them or disqualify myself upon registration at a shoot. I promise you that someone expressing their opinion will not change my desire to remain friends, as long as, me expressing mine doesn't change their's. I am just telling who ever wants to read my post, how I (my offer to work and suggestions) have been treated by TBG. It was not I that didn't want to be a member, it was TBG that told me they didn't want me as a member. I had already joined, it was as a member I was treated that way. And it is not a "free ride" I gladly have and will pay what ever fees it costs to shoot or attend a gathering, and have even suggested in the past that non-members pay a higher fee than non-members.

The one thing that we completely agree upon and is the most important thing is: "God bless you anyway, and for my part I intend to remain friends".


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## PAPALAPIN (Sep 9, 2010)

ROGER...as far as I am concerned, there is not problem with you and I

Fatboy

Keep in mind that my statements are mine and not the TBG's.  If the attitude of one "has been" old farte is going to keep you out of the TBG, then you have pretty thin skin.  For someone that does not have a "dog in this fight" you sure have an opinion for a non member.

There are a very few people who, in my opinion, the TBG is better off without.  No names, but if the shoe fits...


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## Fatboy (Sep 9, 2010)

I don't have thin skin.I don't really care what ya'll do with the club like I used to.I just thought it was funny the way he ruffled your old feathers.Must have meant something to you.Don't worry Jack I won't be trying to join your club and ruining your fun.


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## Jake Allen (Sep 9, 2010)

I reckon I could paint TBG on a fence post, and someone would go over and argue with it.  
So be it. 

_"Most of the members that are active joined to give, not to get."_ Matt Schuster, speaking of TBG membership.

That pretty much sums it up for me. I would rather not give so much in paper and ink, and to the post office.I wish earlier, I had chosen my words better, but don't regret my message. I have learned a few things as well.

If I ever get close to the level of precise shooting of some of you, I may have another dog in the fight, but that ain't likely. 

I think it is fantastic we have several places to meet, greet, shoot, have fun, learn stuff and be exposed 
to cool things that you may have no idea about.

Choices, options, we are blessed with so many!

I like it all, and will support NGT, TBG and TBT, as well as Tradgang, Stickbow and the Core.

Season starts day after tomorrow!


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## PAPALAPIN (Sep 9, 2010)

JEFF...well sed...wish I had more of your tolerance and discretion

FATTBOY

Yeah, when I see the hard workers of the TBG getting trashed, I get my feathers ruffled.

You were NOT one of the very few I was referring to.  I don't even know you.  I would have no problem flinging shafts with you as a member or non member.


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## TNGIRL (Sep 9, 2010)

Well, I was happy to see my newsletter in the mail when I got back home Tuesday. Thank you for that Melvin....even if you don't read this. 
I'm a little disheartened by all the back and forth I've read for days and days on here. I have no idea what the best answer for all this is.....ignore it, forget it, go away, be silent.....anyone of these might be the correct answer. I'm REAL new on the TBG scene, but have "moved in the circle" for many years. I've known many of these fine men and ladies before I even knew there was a TBG or NGT. I simply met and imbraced them at shoots and gatherings, where we were all like minded. Remember that? We wanted to shoot (or hunt) with traditional weapons. We shared ideas, shared experiences, shared the joys of the victories and the tears when we fell short of a goal, shared the knowledge of this way of life. There were mature ones that began the journey for us, but along the way, you must bring younger ones into it or the journey ends one day. I guess, tho I am not young, would be considered a "youngun", and I love this journey. I am sorry that feelings have been hurt, in the past or now. I honestly feel, that was not the intent of most of the posting on here. I understand the questions that have been asked, you must admit, for the most part they are VERY legitimate ones, and still haven't been answered to my understanding anyway. Course, I don't count myself on the side of really smart most days. The main one being the cost of the newsletter. I love the newsletter, but had NO IDEA it would cost that much to print and deliver it to me!!! Seems like it could be adjusted in ways so it would be solvent in existence. Maybe several of the officers could discuss this and come up with some workable ideas, and then impliment them. Maybe printed twice a year and a couple more pages, put it on the websight with a code that only members can reach and read.  If the member doesn't have a computer, then they get mailed one, if you have a computer, you can print it out for a hard copy, I'm OK with that. I know the websight is a "work in progress" at least that's what Melvin said at the business meeting in Aug. I know there were several men last year that offered to build it for the club, they probably would still if asked, it's for everyone's benefit. I would access it often, to read for updates and pictures etc. it's just another way to "keep in touch" with each other, that's not a bad thing at all, just different. 
When it comes to the details of equipment, what to use or not to use, I have no problem with there being limitations...I know that going in. I'm just glad ya'll set a women's stake most times. I've  shot from the men's stake for MANY a year cause they didn't need one of those either!!!!! Thank goodness those fellers had wives they had to listen to at home!!!!!  And yet, I still get an occasional comment on my shooting from the women's stake!!!!!! But I love it all!!! And I sincerely hope that the TBG can survive any "growing" pains and adjustments needed to keep it active and a vital part of this wonderful way of life. I will do my part, anything I am able to. I just have to know it.....communication is the bottom answer!!!!!


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## TNGIRL (Sep 9, 2010)

While visiting the GA site under Tradgang just now, I found that Melvin has indeed gotten our TBG websight up and running. It indicated it was under "review for content" currently but I plan to check back today and hopefully it will be going as planned sometime today. Thank You Melvin....even if you never read this either!!!!!!!


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## Jake Allen (Sep 9, 2010)

Most, very well said, thanks for your time.

Folks, this is it for TBG bashing threads, in this section,
for as long as I am moderator.
I don't mean discussing TBG, or talking about hunts and shoots. I mean the discussions of who did who wrong and
such. That horse has been beat into a pulp.
All of the rules about who can pick which side of what nose with which finger from which hand, have surely been covered. 

Problems with TBG, as Matt has typed over, and over again, should be best handled thru direct communication,
(i.e. pm or letter), to an officer for TBG.

You men and women in this section are, without any doubt,
some of the finest folks I have ever known.
Thanks in advance, I am sure, for your understanding and cooperation.

Now we can move onto to bigger and better things.


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## PAPALAPIN (Sep 9, 2010)

THANK YOU,  Jeff


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## Joe "JC" Coots (Sep 9, 2010)

Very interesting discussion. As an officer, my personal thanks to all those who have submitted reasonable suggestions.

Although not active here, I would like to respond to some of the comments in general. And thank you Matt, I reconsidered my initial 4000 word post after reading yours and re-wrote it to a bit less, maybe it's 3950 now 

If I offend anyone, that is not my intent, I am simply stating my personal opinion and read this as if you saw my chubby little mug smiling at you from the other side of the screen. 

If any of those posters here were at the business meeting, and from who I can recognize from the log in names few were, they would know that we discussed the issue of physical printing of the newsletter at length. We are in the process (Melvin actually is finishing up the touches) of getting some of our newsletter posted on the website. I bear full responsibility for not keeping up the website in the last year. If you want to holler, I am the feller to be tied to the whipping post. The changes at my work have necessitated prioritizing my involvement in many things but that is no excuse...the website has remained dormant for a year, at least, completely from my lack of involvement. But Melvin, as he many times does, stepped in at the business meeting and volunteered his and a compadre's services to get it up to speed. This will help a great deal. Anyone out there have crazy webpage skills? Donate a webpage, cook up something awesome...we'll take it. So, point one, if you want to help TBG save money, please send him an email requesting that no printed copy be sent to you. I am not sure when this will take effect fully (again it's in progress) but we will be posting a portion of the newsletter on the website, offering a printed copy to all members, and emailing a copy to all members who don't need/want the printed one. I think this is a tremendous step in the right direction 

For point two, as I alluded to, if you don't like things, show up for the business meeting. It happens EVERY SINGLE YEAR prior to the banquet. Show up a couple hours early, help set up, let your voice be heard...it's a great time and this years discussion put a spring in Melvin's step enough that he now has taken on yet another duty in mobilizing a real website. Do you know how many people run for TBG officers each year? We have to have at least two by by-laws....but do you realize we never EVER get more than the incumbent and maybe one other. Do you want to change things? How much is it worth to you? Then step in, step up, and do what you can for the betterment of TBG by simply actively participating. Campaign, become an officer, get the membership motivated enough to change the by-laws if you think that needs to happen, but for Lord's sake, don't sit there and whine behind the keyboard about what's wrong when you're not in there struggling to make things happen.

Point three, or is that 4,5, or 6? Anyway, I chaired the shoot rules committee. We (collectively I think 15 experienced "shooter's" opinions) came up with a set of rules that was a compilation of just about all the sensible ones we could find. The arrow weight limit is in the by-laws, a product of both the times of the clubs inception and those that incepted (is that a word?) it. Used to be GA had a 40# draw weight limit to, and I believe that coincided some (but you'll have to ask the inceptors for sure). I agree with the weight limit. If it were up to me, it would be higher. Momentum is penetration, period. Same bow, same head, same arrow, same good flight, heavy beats light on penetrating any flexible medium. Bring me the stuff or we can use mine, I can prove it. In my opinion, exit holes equal found game and everything else being equal, heavier will give you more holes more often than lighter, especially if it's a poor hit. 

In competition, the lines are drawn somewhere. We decided to draw the line at longbows and recurves, no elevated rests, no attachments to the bow, no sights. That's neither superior or inferior and should not be judged as such, it's simply the demarcation point for our competitions. Back at the next to last Southeastern at the Hood's, I shot aluminum arrows because they didn't allow carbon. I came in 4th and feel like I could have done better if I shot the carbon I normally did, but I adhered and was whooped. So I and a group of others went to the Hoods and had a polite conversation about carbon...and to Joel and a few of the other TBG officers at that time. The next year there was a carbon division at both the (last) Southeastern and TBG. Then TBG removed the carbon restriction altogether. I was only a small voice in the crowd of carbon supporters, but the time had come and enough presented the prospective change in the right manner that it eventually came to pass. You can do the same too, but only by getting involved and working as a whole towards the benefit of TBG.

TBG is not compounds. No offense to compound shooters at all, they have their clubs, we have ours. If you go to a single action shooters event you don't bring a semi-auto pistol. If you don't have a single action, show up and more will be available to you than you can shake a stick at. The same for trad archery; at my shoot we had 8, that is EIGHT bows with matched arrows laying around as loaners brought by those who wanted nothing more than the joy of watching the look in the eye of a newbie when that simple little stick bent around their heart changing them forever. Want to make more converts, bring your compound friend and tell them they're covered. Call me, call an officer, call Jack (who's got a wall full of the finest loaners out there) and we'll do everything possible to put a bow in their hand. That is the answer, not a separate shooting class that does nothing but continue separation. TBG will never have a compound class in competition...not only because our bylaws won't allow it, but TBG is simply about stickbows, period. Again, no offense to compound shooters, just the facts. It's not elitist, it's choice. Every year I go to PC,FL a few times to fish. I fish exclusively with a flyrod. I work the boat for my family, I put people on fish with every type of tackle imaginable, but I would just as soon not catch fish as fish with anything other than a flyrod. I catch plenty of fish, but they only matter to me because of the method. Same with trad, it's not better, it's not worse, it's just our choice. TBG was founded on that choice...you can choose anything you want, but TBG is about traditional bowhunting and those that choose that route.

My final point (bet you're glad to hear that) is the same one I said in the meeting: the heart and soul of TBG should not be "what can TBG offer me for my membership"....it should be "what can I offer TBG?" If you are new to our way of life and want instruction or help, people will fall all over themselves to do that for you. But don't join just because you need something from TBG. We'll give that to you hand over fist without your membership. But if you want to give something back, then join TBG. I dropped enough money to make my cry at the banquet (Lord knows how much some of those other die-hard souls donated), I save all year for it. You know what I got? Some old magazines Frank Wright donated that I cherish. To the rest of the world, worth what I spent? Heck no, but to me, the money was just a donation to the club to help out in what little way I can, the mags were just icing on an already sweet cake. I know for a fact that was the way all those in attendance felt of their donations too. The shoots we do every year? The folks that help out with those could care less how much work it is or what they get out of it, they do it because they want to help in whatever way they can. It's all about giving, not getting. If you need to get, don't join, let us give to you until you feel it's time to give back. Then join and participate, and do so with a heart that is directed at giving back to others the joy that you have discovered watching that arrow fly out of a traditional bow.

So, I've said my piece, flame on fellers and lasses...it's been a while since I've been on the boards so I'm up for the abuse if you need to redirect.

P.S. The opinions expressed above are mine alone and not necessarily those of TBG officers or members in general, so don't hold it against them


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## matt schuster (Sep 9, 2010)

Roger, I hope there is another side to your story, but I will take you at your word, and your experience as you related it is sad.    I don't think that kind of thing happens very often, and if you felt put down for any kind of member status that is inexcusable.   I personally have never seen anyone in TBG do it (except in jest, like when I make fun of Steve Sheets and I only do that because I like him and am jealous that he kills nice bucks right beside his driveway. .lol.)    Anyway,  even the chance that it could happen is  the reason that I support doing away with the split membership.     Any TBG member who makes others feel unwelcome is doing our club a disservice and I honestly have never seen it happen - except here on the internet where it happens too often.    And to some of you who feel the need to vigorously defend TBG, try and do so in a more judicious way.    Some of you, in my humble opinon, are hurting a heck of a lot more than helping.     Give the facts, express your point, and agree to disagree, but there is no reason for incivility or to make folks feel unwelcome both to their opinions or in TBG.      I will admit, as some above have said, there definitely are a few old guys that do have the attitude - if you don't like it, then don't join - they are also in the vast minority of TBG members.    When I write about the the rules of TBG,  I do so to tell about why they were put in, and the perspective of the officers at the time  - it doesn't mean I don't think some of them need to change.      And Roger, I don't disagree with a lot of what you say - and there were reasons for making change difficult, but it is not impossible.   And please do not include me in the crowd that doesn't want folks like you to join -  you sound like you would be a hardworking, active member in any club you did choose to join.      I can tell you from when I was an officer, we had some knock down fights in the meetings.     We had a lot of 4 to 1 votes on major stuff - 1 vote kept some major changes from being implemented.   Believe me, things can change, but members have to actually  get involved, get on the phone, and push things.    The officers change every two years - that is a big opportunity.     In a club as small as TBG, one dedicated person can make a heckuva lot of things change.   

Keep in mind, TBG is supposed to be fun, and it is for the vast majority of members and non-members who attend any of the events.   Let's not lose sight of the fact that none of this is all that important in the big picture.   It is  something we all do because we love it.       I'm sure I would enjoy spending time around a campfire with 99% of the folks on this thread.    That remains my biggest point on all my posts - to let non-members know that most folks experience TBG like TNGIRL - it is an overwhelmingly positive outfit - it just ain't perfect.    It is far from what one might expect from reading threads like this one.    It is not a bunch of old elitists sitting around figuring out how to make themselves feel better than everyone else ( although that does sound like fun - just kidding.)   It will never be a perfect organizations because it is made of humans with tempers, strong opinions, egos, and all the other mess that goes in to being a person.    Catch someone on a bad hair day (something I never need worry about) and they may tick you off, but remember,  no one person is TBG.   



I am done with this thread since I am repeating myself . . . again, good luck on opening day and I hope some of you will give TBG a chance, and others will give it another chance.   Even if you don't join, come to some events and make up your own mind.   You won't be sorry.


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## Dennis (Sep 9, 2010)

Thanks JC and Matt


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## TNGIRL (Sep 9, 2010)

Thanks JakeAllen, Joe and Matt...now let's let this one go OK?
Good Luck to all who enter the woods on Sat morn!!!!!


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## Al33 (Sep 9, 2010)

I can't let this go............... without saying "Thanks" to Joe Coots and Matt Shoes-ster  for their insigtful posts.

Thanks guys!!!!


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## dutchman (Sep 9, 2010)

I am happy for the new insight I now have into the inner workings of TBG.


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## SELFBOW (Sep 9, 2010)

It is still misunderstood what I was trying to say. I will try again.

Since I am able to do everything related to TBG such as get newsletter, go to events, etc... without being a member what is the driving reason for me to want to be a member?  




I will still hunt how I want, when I want so that would cause problems w TBG. I hunted 1 day this summer with a xbow (for fun) and because of that I am told it creates a "date" where my membership would start over(this from Jeff Kitchens) however at Oconee TBG Melvin stated it only applied during archery season(trad only) so you see I am already being told 2 different things from 2 different people. Which is correct?
I'm just trying to figure out the importance of member "status" when everything needed is already available...


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## Jake Allen (Sep 9, 2010)

buckbacks said:


> It is still misunderstood what I was trying to say. I will try again.
> 
> Since I am able to do everything related to TBG such as get newsletter, go to events, etc... without being a member what is the driving reason for me to want to be a member?
> ...



"Most of the members that are active joined to give, not to get." Matt Schuster, speaking of TBG membership.

Maybe, just maybe, that's your answer?

Tomi, where's the airhorn?


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## SELFBOW (Sep 9, 2010)

Jake Allen said:


> "Most of the members that are active joined to give, not to get." Matt Schuster, speaking of TBG membership.
> 
> Maybe, just maybe, that's your answer?
> 
> Tomi, where's the airhorn?



Give what?

You can give without being a member and from the sounds of it not many members really participate(hint give) much anyway...just a few...


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## robert carter (Sep 9, 2010)

There was a time back when I joined TBG before internet it was where like minds gathered.A few shoots a hunt or two and a newsletter to read about regular old fells you know.
 Now you got the internet and we talk to each other daily. 


To me its not about a "club" ...its about a group of folks having fun. If your hanging out around the campfire in late October with us you`ll "feel" that same feeling and know what we are talking about when you hear some "old" members try to describe TBG.RC


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## Elbow (Sep 9, 2010)

El

Enough...already....let it go...all is well....
El


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## TNGIRL (Sep 10, 2010)

buckbacks said:


> Give what?
> 
> You can give without being a member and from the sounds of it not many members really participate(hint give) much anyway...just a few...



Martin, it's also knowing you are a part of something that's maybe "bigger" than just yourself....a feeling of "kinship" and recognition of someone else's "worth" and value and knowledge and "voice" in the club. I've given to others in this club...and will again. I've given to others not in this club...and I'll also continue that. But I feel a part of the whole being a member. So I also take their victories and defeats personally now as well. Just as anyone on a team should. I might want to be a "loner" in some avenues of my life but as a person that loves archery....that's not something I want to be. I love the friendships made connected with this way of life. It has changed my life for the good. And I suspect you to love this way of life, wether you choose to become a member or not...otherwise you'd never have set off an airhorn behind me one cold night at Oconee !!!!!


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## SELFBOW (Sep 10, 2010)

TNGIRL said:


> Martin, it's also knowing you are a part of something that's maybe "bigger" than just yourself....a feeling of "kinship" and recognition of someone else's "worth" and value and knowledge and "voice" in the club. I've given to others in this club...and will again. I've given to others not in this club...and I'll also continue that. But I feel a part of the whole being a member. So I also take their victories and defeats personally now as well. Just as anyone on a team should. I might want to be a "loner" in some avenues of my life but as a person that loves archery....that's not something I want to be. I love the friendships made connected with this way of life. It has changed my life for the good. And I suspect you to love this way of life, wether you choose to become a member or not...otherwise you'd never have set off an airhorn behind me one cold night at Oconee !!!!!



I agree with what you say, I just don't buy into having to be a TBG member  when basically everything you or I do can be done without it. There is way too many that I have talked with that are not members or don't have plans to renew their memberships to make me place a "value" on it at this time...
and Y'all can bash me all ya want, I got thick skin.


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## Jeff Kitchens (Sep 10, 2010)

Buckbacks
This is from our bylaws:
B) Regular Members. Regular members are those who have met the requirements for regular membership and have been an associate member for at least one year. Before any person is accepted for regular membership, he must complete an application, which includes the following oath:

1 certify that l am a bowhunter who uses only traditional equipment when bowhunting: that I strictly obey all game laws; and that l am dedicated to preserving bowhunting’s traditional values

You can read this and the rest of the bylaws on trad gang in the TBG Forum on the thread named TBG bylaws.

I do not see anywhere where it talks about archery season.  I will be more than glad to discuss anything about TBG with anyone, member or nonmember, but I do not believe this is the place to do that.  Give me a call at (678) 245-2177, send me a PM or e-mail (jeffsk@comcast.net), write me a letter or better yet lets share a camp one day and talk about it face to face.

Jeff


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## bownarrow (Sep 10, 2010)

Wow ! It's been really hard to stay off this keyboard but promised myself i would let this one run it's course without putting my old has-been two-cents worth in. I appreciate the comments of some of the other "has-beens". 

Many excellent points have been presented. Roger, i have no idea who you spoke to about the trailers but  that's the first time I've heard of anyone being turned down, ditto for the hosting of a shoot. 

Donnie, thanks for offering to do a Southern Zone shoot. I think the biggest reason we haven't had one lately is that other hunting type gatherings are taking its place in that neck of the woods (two Chick hunts). Robert Carter used to work his fanny off, usually alone, to set courses for Southern Zone shoots that less than a dozen would show up to shoot. Maybe in this age of better communication we could get better turnouts.

Being or not being a member is a very personal decision, just like the decision to use simple tackle in the first place. The rules have been trotted out several times in this and other forums/threads. They are posted permanently on TBG's forum on Tradgang. The rules are the glue that holds an organization together but they are not what TBG is all about. A wiser man than me said "If i have to explain it to you, you really wouldn't understand ". He was talking about traditional bowhunting but i beleive the same applies to TBG. 

Martin, you're obviously baiting so go play somewhere else. You're still standing there with your hand out no matter what anyone says, wanting to know "what's in it for me ?" If you haven't figured it out from Robert's, Tommi's or Al's posts you never will. As a side-note, this has-been will put his "killing ability" up against yours any day. I don't get to hunt near as much as I would like (does that ever happen ?) but my family still eats plenty of venison and wild pork every year.

Okay, I'm through baiting the baiter, the rest of you please excuse me for getting off course. I usually agree with my buddy Matt but this isn't one of those times, I think the two-tiered membership makes lots of sense for reasons that Jack and others have stated here---it's called the TRADITIONAL bowhunters of Georgia. That means we bowhunt with traditional gear. The associate membership is a perfect way for someone to "try out" TBG---it's members, the trad way of hunting and target shooting, our philosophies, to see if they want to go whole hog and become a regular member. 

uh oh, gotta go to work. Sorry, got wound up and didn't watch the time...


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## Apex Predator (Sep 10, 2010)

Folks that know Martin personally know he is a good fellow.  He just ain't happy unless he has a big stick in his hand standing under a hornets nest.  I bet he had a very painful childhood! 

I am a brand new member to TBG.  I have wanted to join for years, but have been lazy.  I have really enjoyed every gathering of the fine folks I have met through this addiction we all have.  I can't imagine a better bunch to be associated with.  You folks all make me proud!  Clubs come and go, and they all have political skirmishes.  TBG will continue to move forward.   I'm just happy that I can be called a member.  I don't need anything in return.  It's difficult for me to attend these northern events, because I'm tucked into the corner of the state down here in the swamp!  Heck, I'm four hours from the southern rep!


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## TNGIRL (Sep 10, 2010)

Martin it's OKAY if you don't want to come and join our gathering of fine men and women.....but you'll just never know our secret handshake will you?????
stop using that stick!!!!and the airhorn!!!


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## Barry Duggan (Sep 10, 2010)

Drink more Ovaltine.


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## PAPALAPIN (Sep 10, 2010)

WELCOME ABOARD MARTY!!!

Glad to have you with us.

Long overdue, from our perspective.


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## pine nut (Sep 10, 2010)

I don't like it when my friends don't get along!  I've been through a couple of divorces and it took me a while to learn that sometimes it ain't them, it is ME!  I kinda think I understand everybody's point, but I don't think we ought to throw the baby out with the diswater.  The "baby" here is the friendship we have all had with one another.  I know sometimes the air just needs clearing, an tempers flare , but I hope everyone cools down and realizes that the good times and the friendships are more important than "being right".  There's a little bit of bad in the best of us and a little bit of good in the worst of us.  
I don't know if I have ever stepped on anybody feelings here, and I don't want to do so now either, but I have friends on both sides of this issue and I want to stay friends with them all.  Yes we can all survive without some of those we used to call friends, but I think we'll all be poorer for it.  It's time to shake hands, and apologize and go on.   Sometimes family members fight, but they're still family, and I want the family that I call friends to stay friends!

If I have wronged anybody or said anything to hurt feelings I apologize!  I never meant to be at odds with anyone here.
Bill


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## DAGATOR16 (Sep 10, 2010)

bownarrow said:


> Donnie, thanks for offering to do a Southern Zone shoot. I think the biggest reason we haven't had one lately is that other hunting type gatherings are taking its place in that neck of the woods (two Chick hunts). Robert Carter used to work his fanny off, usually alone, to set courses for Southern Zone shoots that less than a dozen would show up to shoot. Maybe in this age of better communication we could get better turnouts.



Just wanted to elaborate a little on the southern zone shoot. Mr. Poole, (last year) kindly informed me of his offer to allow TBG to have our southern zone shoot at his place. I had other options, but his place was going to be my first pick. 

As Joel said, I was able to get two TBG hunt on the docket. Without going into too much detail, I'm just going to say I received a back injury that took me out of hunting near the end of Nov. I did not hunt the whole month of Dec. or Jan. till the TBG hunt.

Just had surgery in July. I'm now progressing very well and I plan to be in a tree in the near future.

There were so many shoots taken place in April and that was the only time (month) I could put a shoot together. Given my back issue, April turned out to not be an option either. 

Hopefully, with a little luck and Mr. Poole's help, we will have a southern zone shoot this year. I just wanted to let the readers on this site know why we did not have a southern zone shoot this past year. 

Clay


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## frankwright (Sep 10, 2010)

I suggest we lock this thread and any other thread that goes in this direction.
Public Internet Forum is not the place to try and change an organization, they have business meetings for that and those meetings result in change sometimes if active members actually want a change and a majority votes on it..
I have no other comments.


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## Jeff Kitchens (Sep 10, 2010)

second


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