# Beagles and Goats



## Corey (Apr 5, 2010)

Just wondering how many of you with beagles 
keep goats around and if so what's the theory 
behind it? 

Kinda slow around here


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## Ruger#3 (Apr 5, 2010)

Corey, I dont keep them. A long time beagler I field trialed with swore by them. He kept those little pigmy goats in his larger pens.

This was before tritronics was available to the average beagler.


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## glue bunny (Apr 6, 2010)

I heard the theory was that goats and deer smell similar so if your dog was raised around goats they wouldn't run offgame on deer.
They were familiar with the smell.
ME


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## Ruger#3 (Apr 6, 2010)

glue bunny said:


> I heard the theory was that goats and deer smell similar so if your dog was raised around goats they wouldn't run offgame on deer.
> They were familiar with the smell.
> ME



The old gentlemen I spoke of said exactly that many times.


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## mlandrum (Apr 6, 2010)

Now I know a lot of OLE GOATS that's got beagles But I've been  told that goats keep the rattlesnakes away, so if anybody has a good JUMP-GOAT or a good PACKING-GOAT i sure would like to buy him so I can run my Blues in the summer!!!!!!!!! and not be S-C-E-R-R-R-D-D-D!!!!!!


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## Cottontail (Apr 6, 2010)

I thought goats jumped plenty of rabbits at least mine were always in the bushes and briars eating.


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## sljones (Apr 7, 2010)

The last pack of beagles I got were put with pygmy goats. I bought 3 goats & had electric fence from each corner of the pen down into the branch. Goat's house was up next to the dog pen. This was my only pack of beagles that never paid a deer any attention. I had deer jump up in front of them & they kept hunting rabbits. Had an older fellow tell me it worked. He kept a goat in the pen with his pups & it ate dog food with the pups. Said he never had a problem with deer.


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## tedjackson (Apr 8, 2010)

Contrary to the opinion of many, having a clean pack of dogs that do not run deer is the easiest thing to accomplish.  I have probably sold 40 or more dogs that will not run a deer.  The most important thing is that if you have a older dog that runs deer, get rid of it.  Second never let a young dog have a successful deer run that he enjoys.  It may be the stock of dogs that we have, but usually two times being put on deer will do it.  It's rare to have one run a deer the third time.  I have a 32 acre pen, but do not let young, un broke pups run unsupervised.


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## rabbitrunner58 (Apr 8, 2010)

Dog's breeding has a lot to do with it then training


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## Corey (Apr 8, 2010)

rabbitrunner58 said:


> Dog's breeding has a lot to do with it then training



I dont agree with this, I just cant see where you can 
breed a dog not to run deer, cats, hogs, rats, turkey 
or whatever gets up in front of them...I think it all has 
to do where you live, if you live in a place with a lot 
of deer the chances are your dog is going to try it. 
Unless the are so slow you just dont know what 
they are running


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## crackerdave (Apr 8, 2010)

Corey: Ya don't s'pose there's any chance the goat and the beagle will _cross-breed,_ do ya?


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## tedjackson (Apr 9, 2010)

Doesn't make much sense does it?  I recently bought a lemon Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- from Sam Butler.  He told me that her sire FC Choptalk Bold Billy B was naturally clean, did not run deer and most of his pups were like that.  I didn't pay any attention to this since I'd never had one that I didn't have to break off deer.  So far this female has run nothing but a rabbit.  I've used her with other pups and seen her turn down an armadillo.  Go figure.  Some are just smarter than others and have a built in desire to please you.  One thing for sure, if they run deer they are useless.


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## tedjackson (Apr 9, 2010)

Sorry, I didn't know it was against the rules to call a female dog what it is.


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## Ruger#3 (Apr 9, 2010)

Corey said:


> I dont agree with this, I just cant see where you can
> breed a dog not to run deer, cats, hogs, rats, turkey
> or whatever gets up in front of them...I think it all has
> to do where you live, if you live in a place with a lot
> ...



I'm more in line with your thinking Corey. I think training has a lot to do with it. I've had those that will and those that wont. Those that do are a pain.

I've seen some dang good hounds ocassionally put cats under porches or chase deer out of thickets over the years. Usually much to the surprise of their owners.

Back to your question, if a goat smells like a deer to a dog maybe living with it conditions them to get used to it and reduce the chances they will chase them. I never tried it, so dont know how effective it it is. Thinking back I dont think I ever saw the old field trialers dogs chase a deer.


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## coltc (Apr 9, 2010)

Breeding, training and the environment you are hunting, all play a part in whether the dogs will be prone to run deer. It's not one thing, it's a combination of things. (Raising the dogs around goats does help. My granddad use to do this!)


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## bjtillman (Apr 9, 2010)

sljones said:


> The last pack of beagles I got were put with pygmy goats. I bought 3 goats & had electric fence from each corner of the pen down into the branch. Goat's house was up next to the dog pen. This was my only pack of beagles that never paid a deer any attention. I had deer jump up in front of them & they kept hunting rabbits. Had an older fellow tell me it worked. He kept a goat in the pen with his pups & it ate dog food with the pups. Said he never had a problem with deer.


I see your from Milan, Ga.  Did you know a man, deceased now named Lamar Tayor.  He was a pharmacist that lived in Milan that used to own beagles.


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## bjtillman (Apr 9, 2010)

coltc said:


> Breeding, training and the environment you are hunting, all play a part in whether the dogs will be prone to run deer. It's not one thing, it's a combination of things. (Raising the dogs around goats does help. My granddad use to do this!)


I agree with you 100%.  There are some bloodlines that seem harder to break and some that do not care alot for a deer or other off game.  I do think you can take a completely broke dog and put him with the wrong company and you will eventually have him running deer.  How long it takes depends on the dog, how many rabbits you have etc.  If you have plenty of rabbits it is a lot easier to keep one broke but when game gets scarce and you've been hunting for a while with no luck and a deer gets up in front of them it is hard for a dog with any go at all not to take it.  I used to foxhunt on the outside and remember a cross a man made several times and there was never a pup that ran a deer as I recollect.  They came in the world broke.  We would shoot dogs with bird shot in the tail end to break them back in these times as we did not have the quality of shock collars that we have today.  We weren't worried about them being gun shy because we were just listening to the race.  Today a pen really helps in keeping broke dogs because I like to go put them on a deer (with shock collar on) and if they take it shock them and then go to the pen and do the same thing and let them run the rabbit with the collar on also.  If he has got much brains he will figure out what is ok and what is not.  The best advice I ever got was from DR about some broke hounds I bought from him.  He told me to run just them and not put with any trashy hounds and I would not have to worry about them.  A lot of hounds will not jump a deer but will not turn one down if another hound jumps it.  I have found to keep broke hounds and run with other people that have trashy hounds is not going to work for me.  I will run with anyone who is as serious as I am about running deer because anyone's dog is subject to come unglued and I don't want to mess his dog up just as I don't want him to mess up mine.  Sorry to get so strung out but I hate a deer dog!!!


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## tedjackson (Apr 10, 2010)

I didn't mean to imply that you didn't have to train them not to run deer.  The female I currently have is the only one I've ever had that seemed to be naturally straight and she is still young.  The worst thing anyone can do is try and avoid the deer.  When we are hunting and someone sees a deer, if I have down young dogs, I head right into the deer scent (I also love to do this at a trial).  That way I can deal with it quickly if I need to, not when they are almost out of hearing.  I think part of the reason I have had clean dogs is the great amount of deer present where we hunt.  Usually more deer than rabbits.  

This is an area where the AHRA boys have the high ground on AKC.  We have been slow to learn and are in bad need for a rule change.  The pen running has added to the problem making more people prone to bring one to a trial that will run a deer.  Right now is more up to the person judging and many will deal with it and pick up the offender.


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## Ruger#3 (Apr 11, 2010)

I have to agree, I AKC trialed for years and started ARHA recently. THe ARHA deer rule does more to promote the hunting beagle. The AKC Beagle Advisory Committee is considering revising the rule and it is overdue. This from the AKC judging training and it leaves too much up to the discretion of the judge.

More specifically Procedure 8-J "Except for trailing deer, which shall be a demerit, trailing game other than announced shall not be considered a demerit, nor shall any hound be demerited for failing to pack if the pack has been proven to be on game other than announced. In the event the hound has been ordered up, it shall be reinstated in the pack."

Some excellent and experienced judges get confused and frustrated sometimes in applying Procedure 8-J. First of all, the rule only applies to the Small Pack Option (SPO)/Gundog Brace formats and the only animal covered is deer. Several years ago the Beagle Advisory Committee (BAC) in an effort to keep the Beagle useful for hunting purposes as well as field trial competition presented the proposal to AKC and consequently the rule was adopted and implemented. Beagle field trial enthusiast and rabbit hunters realized the seriousness of the problem with a deer running Beagle hound. The BAC and AKC moved to give judges explicit authority to demerit hounds for trailing deer. This is the only "other than announced" animal that hounds may be demerited for trailing. In other words if the hounds trail fox, pheasant, coyote or any "other than announced" animal they shall not be demerited.

Procedure 8-J could have been incorporated into or added onto Procedure 5. STANDARD FOR JUDGING. However, the BAC placed additional emphasis on Procedure 8-J and made it a separate procedure because it applied only to SPO at the time of its inception and later to the Gundog Brace format. Different judges handle deer running beagles differently at field trials. And each situation is different and requires different subjectivity on the judge’s part. In the event of a deer race there is no set time limit allowing the handlers to regain control of the hounds. It is the judge’s discretion. The judges may give the deer runners another rabbit or the judges may order the hounds up and move on to the next pack. Trailing deer is a demerit, nothing more, nothing less.

Any hound that has been ordered up for not participating in running off game shall be reinstated in the pack, Note: Procedure 8-J does not state that the judges must "see" the off game. Most experienced judges realize quickly when the pack is running off game and react accordingly. In small classes the hounds may receive further consideration following a deer race but most judges don’t tolerate deer trailing hounds. Hounds may be ordered up and eliminated from further competition but not disqualified for running deer.

Procedure 7-M States: "Should there arise at any time during the running of a heat a question concerning the actual running of the hounds that is not provided for in these Procedures, the Judges shall handle the situation in a manner not contrary to these Procedures, and shall so decide the matter as to give each hound an equal opportunity". In other words just use good common sense.

It these two formats it is most important that judges start scoring hounds immediately when the hounds are cast. In the case of the winners pack trailing deer, scoring the hounds early on search could very well play an integral part in determining the winner. Judges should be very conscientious of this and carry out their duties accordingly. 

Hopefully this will clear up this most important issue. Should you have questions concerning this or any other procedures please feel free to contact any of our friendly AKC field staff.


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## biggie man (Apr 11, 2010)

an older fellow told me that beagels raised around goats had a better chance that they would not bother deer. he was a beagle man from way back


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## sljones (Apr 12, 2010)

BJTILLMAN,
Lamar & myself spent many nights sitting by the fire running our packs together for several years. We would run 3 -4 times a week. He had some good dogs.


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## rabbitrunner58 (Apr 12, 2010)

*deer*



Corey said:


> I dont agree with this, I just cant see where you can
> breed a dog not to run deer, cats, hogs, rats, turkey
> or whatever gets up in front of them...I think it all has
> to do where you live, if you live in a place with a lot
> ...



Corey I heard about dogs for years that would not run off game. Did not believe them ether. Last year bout two dog that  are year old.The  female would tail rat but would not open the male has not ran no off game at all . Still keeping my eye on them. But have two male that are about the same age. They have run deer three time . Tri-tronics had to go to work. They do not start deer how.Which two would you like to train? Just not as hard to work with.


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## rabbitrunner58 (Apr 12, 2010)

COREY goats do help.


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## Corey (Apr 12, 2010)

rabbitrunner58 said:


> Corey I heard about dogs for years that would not run off game. Did not believe them ether. Last year bout two dog that  are year old.The  female would tail rat but would not open the male has not ran no off game at all . Still keeping my eye on them. But have two male that are about the same age. They have run deer three time . Tri-tronics had to go to work. They do not start deer how.Which two would you like to train? Just not as hard to work with.



10-4 I understand what your talking about now


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## bqueen (May 12, 2010)

I've seen my Dads dogs come straight to him when deer was jumped up. they wouldn't fool with deer.


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## bjtillman (May 20, 2010)

When I used to foxhunt there was a man in South Carolina that told me to get a mean buttheaded billy goat and a 2 foot chain with a snap on both ends. Collar the goat and snap the dog and goat together.  That goat is going to butt that dog to death.  He said when you think he is about to kill him wait 20 more minutes and go unsnap them.


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