# Are There Smallmouths In The Chattahoochee



## BR400 (Jul 1, 2014)

Near Atlanta?


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## lampern (Jul 1, 2014)

Its shoal bass and spotted bass


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## WPrich (Jul 1, 2014)

I've heard there were some illegally stocked smallmouths put in there years ago, don't know how true that is.  There are spots, largemouth,  and shoal bass in there for sure maybe even redeyes as well.


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## blink (Jul 1, 2014)

i have seen a few that could be smallies. not totally sure though. there have been some threads on here in the past.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=317592&highlight=chattahoochee+smallmouth


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## Cashvaluerecovery (Jul 1, 2014)

I grew up fishing the 285 and powers ferry road area. I caught quite a few small mouth bass from there all the way up to morgan falls - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -. Maybe 1 small mouth for ever 250 large mouth, spots, and shoalies combined. The shoalies there are very dark and the patterns are well defined. The small mouth look like a bronze football exactly the way they do on blue ridge. Its a needle in a haystack though as for numbers.


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## Old Dead River (Jul 1, 2014)

yes there are some smallmouth that were introduced below morgan falls


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## The Longhunter (Jul 1, 2014)

Old Dead River said:


> yes there are some smallmouth that were introduced below morgan falls




I saw people catching "smallmouths" out of that part of the Chattachoochee over 50 years ago, before Lanier had even filled. No one had ever heard of a spot then.  I was young, so I can't tell you to a moral certainty that they there smallmouth, but what I can tell you is that they came from the river, they didn't look like largemouth which I had seen all my life (and caught for the same periord), and they looked like smallmouths in the Field and Stream and Outdoor life.

What I heard was that some rich "sports" had stocked them along that portion of the river.


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## Old Dead River (Jul 1, 2014)

The Longhunter said:


> What I heard was that some rich "sports" had stocked them along that portion of the river.



this is very interesting and I would like to hear more about that, but I don't see why they would need to stock them when the river was already full of shoal bass, shoal bass look somewhat similar to a smallmouth with their vertical patterns


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## Old Dead River (Jul 1, 2014)

of course I also don't see why the fisherman that transported fish from  blue ridge needed to put smallmouth in the river below morgan falls.


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## Tmpr111 (Jul 1, 2014)

Yes, I've caught em there.  However I'd give anything to see the shoal bass population grow there.


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## Cashvaluerecovery (Jul 1, 2014)

Tmpr111 said:


> Yes, I've caught em there.  However I'd give anything to see the shoal bass population grow there.



You must not have been down there lately. They have been stocking shoal bass pretty hard the last few years and they are doing well. They arent all that big but you can hardly cast anything shiny behind a rock with current near 285 and powers ferry without catching one.


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## Tmpr111 (Jul 1, 2014)

Cashvaluerecovery said:


> You must not have been down there lately. They have been stocking shoal bass pretty hard the last few years and they are doing well. They arent all that big but you can hardly cast anything shiny behind a rock with current near 285 and powers ferry without catching one.




Correct, population may not have been the most accurate choice of words.  I was under the impression they were stocked hard there between 03-07' but was not aware that had happened in the more recent years.  That's great if so, but yes, I often catch many smaller sized fish near and around that area.  The fact is it'd be nice to see larger fish in those parts on a more regular basis.  I'm no biologist and have no idea on what makes a shoal bass fishery thrive and produce larger fish, but I do know they're in no way close to the size in that water as they are in other areas in State.


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## Old Dead River (Jul 2, 2014)

Tmpr111 said:


> Correct, population may not have been the most accurate choice of words.  I was under the impression they were stocked hard there between 03-07' but was not aware that had happened in the more recent years.  That's great if so, but yes, I often catch many smaller sized fish near and around that area.  The fact is it'd be nice to see larger fish in those parts on a more regular basis.  I'm no biologist and have no idea on what makes a shoal bass fishery thrive and produce larger fish, but I do know they're in no way close to the size in that water as they are in other areas in State.



I waded north of 285 one time when the river was a bit too high and fast to be in but I did it anyway, what do they call that Cochran shoals, had some nibbles but didn't land anything. why wasn't the shoal bass population good there anyway?? fished out?


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## Tmpr111 (Jul 2, 2014)

Old Dead River said:


> I waded north of 285 one time when the river was a bit too high and fast to be in but I did it anyway, what do they call that Cochran shoals, had some nibbles but didn't land anything. why wasn't the shoal bass population good there anyway?? fished out?



That's the area... It definitely gets fished hard and the 285 area in the summer gets heavy "floater" traffic too.  It's a great stretch for many types of different fish, and it's neat that it runs through that area of Atlanta.   However it's not what it once was IMO.


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## Cashvaluerecovery (Jul 2, 2014)

Tmpr111 said:


> Correct, population may not have been the most accurate choice of words.  I was under the impression they were stocked hard there between 03-07' but was not aware that had happened in the more recent years.  That's great if so, but yes, I often catch many smaller sized fish near and around that area.  The fact is it'd be nice to see larger fish in those parts on a more regular basis.  I'm no biologist and have no idea on what makes a shoal bass fishery thrive and produce larger fish, but I do know they're in no way close to the size in that water as they are in other areas in State.



 Here is everything I know about it if it helps any. Now this first part is all hearsay from the guys who do the stocking but I didnt actually witness it haha. You are correct 2003-2007 they stocked shoalies through the dh area of the river from below morgan falls to below 285 in several different places. Natural reproduction had a couple rough years so they started again in 2011 and were to continue as needed.

 Now for the first hand experience part. During those stocking years you couldnt cast a rooster tail without catching a 6 or 7 inch shoalie. Around 2010 or so It would take me 5 or 6 casts to produce a 10 incher. Last summer was the last time I tried the area. I didnt count the casts this time haha. But i Fished 4 hours wading from 285, across the rays on the river, down to the diving rock and I caught 13 shoal bass from 9 inches to 2.5 lbs. 2 large mouths one was 4lbs easy. 2 yellow perch, 1 brown trout, and one striper about 6lbs.

I dont know how fast they grow and I do know striper are eating that fits in their mouths through that section for half the year but there is progress being made I promise. All fish ate the same 2 baits. An sr5 shad wrap in perch flavor and a floating rapala in threadfin flavor.


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## Randy (Jul 2, 2014)

They are there, unfortunately and have even found their way all the way down to West Point lake where I know at least one has been caught.  It is unfortunate.


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## Randy (Jul 2, 2014)

And yes the DNR has been stocking shoalies in that area.  Catch and release is the way to grow larger fish.


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## Tmpr111 (Jul 2, 2014)

Randy said:


> And yes the DNR has been stocking shoalies in that area.  Catch and release is the way to grow larger fish.



Well IMO even those who don't practice catch n release might want to in that area.  I would never eat a fish from that stretch for fear of growing a third nipple or a second naval.


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## Shoalwalker (Jul 2, 2014)

The Longhunter said:


> I saw people catching "smallmouths" out of that part of the Chattachoochee over 50 years ago, before Lanier had even filled. No one had ever heard of a spot then.  I was young, so I can't tell you to a moral certainty that they there smallmouth, but what I can tell you is that they came from the river, they didn't look like largemouth which I had seen all my life (and caught for the same periord), and they looked like smallmouths in the Field and Stream and Outdoor life.
> 
> What I heard was that some rich "sports" had stocked them along that portion of the river.



Those were probably shoa bass that you saw them catching 50 years ago. The Shoal Bass was not identified as its own species until the 70s. Old timers here on the Lower Flint still refer to shoalies as "small mouth."

The old record for "red eye" bass was actually a shoalie caught in Florida waters of the ACF. A more recent record for "red eye" bass caught in Souh Carolina waters of the Savannah system was briefly identified as a shoal bass before they figured out that it was a spot/red eye cross.

 The "smallmouth" that people are referring to look  to be bucket-stocked, true, bronze-backed smallmouth that are not native.


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## Tmpr111 (Jul 2, 2014)

Cashvaluerecovery said:


> I dont know how fast they grow and I do know striper are eating that fits in their mouths through that section for half the year but there is progress being made I promise. All fish ate the same 2 baits. An sr5 shad wrap in perch flavor and a floating rapala in threadfin flavor.



I've heard the half of year thing with Stripers here since I moved from FL a few years back.  Yet my largest Striper to date came from just north 285 the week after Thanksgiving (on a bladed jig).  And while I'm sure many travel back south for winter, I believe some stay.

The rapalas are fun, I just tend to waste my time targeting bigger fish.


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## Old Dead River (Jul 3, 2014)

I had always thought smallmouth required more oxygenated water, west point doesn't strike me as place they would flourish and reproduce, am I missing something?


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## Old Dead River (Jul 3, 2014)

Shoalwalker said:


> Those were probably shoa bass that you saw them catching 50 years ago. The Shoal Bass was not identified as its own species until the 70s. Old timers here on the Lower Flint still refer to shoalies as "small mouth."
> 
> The old record for "red eye" bass was actually a shoalie caught in Florida waters of the ACF. A more recent record for "red eye" bass caught in Souh Carolina waters of the Savannah system was briefly identified as a shoal bass before they figured out that it was a spot/red eye cross.
> 
> The "smallmouth" that people are referring to look  to be bucket-stocked, true, bronze-backed smallmouth that are not native.



it was recognized as a separate species in the nineties, previously the record was considered to be a redeye, with some suggesting the big fish (shoal bass) as a redeye subspecies.

the redeye thing is more confusing because the riverine fish are small, yet there are some that inhabit reservoirs that have grown to sizes comparable to shoalies, maybe this hybrid is one of the fish I'm thinking of, maybe randy can shed light on this





Cashvaluerecovery said:


> I grew up fishing the 285 and powers ferry road area. I caught quite a few small mouth bass from there all the way up to morgan falls - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -. Maybe 1 small mouth for ever 250 large mouth, spots, and shoalies combined. The shoalies there are very dark and the patterns are well defined. The small mouth look like a bronze football exactly the way they do on blue ridge. Its a needle in a haystack though as for numbers.





the oldtimer anecdote I'm positive is referring to shoalies, but you're talking about catching identifiable smallmouth bass over a more recent period of time but pre-dating the fisherman that was transporting fish from blue ridge to below morgan falls. as I heard it he was putting his boat in and releasing them from his livewell.


could you get us some parameters on when you were catching these smallmouth in the hooch, share any photos, and demonstrate that you're certain they were indeed bronzebacks and not shoalies.

your contribution to this thread is very intriguing and I'd love to hear more about your experience on the hooch.


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## Old Dead River (Jul 3, 2014)

I've shared this here before, but circa 2001 I used to live in an apt complex off roswell road that had a large pond and nature trail that backed up to the river just below morgan falls  dam. On a stormy day after the rain had passed I ventured back on the trail with rod and a bobber of some sorts, the creek from the pond ran into the river and in that pocket a large school of bass were using it as a current break. I knew how to bass fish at the time but had put the sport down some years back, I've never seen that many bass together in one space, there were fish from a pound to 7-8 pounds. at the time  I didn't know what a shoal bass was and could not discern the colors of the fish but could distinctly recognize the bass shaped silhouette that automatically gives you chill bumps when you see them mere inches below the surface. I will never forget it and really wish I had been better prepared that day.


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## blink (Jul 3, 2014)

i am gonna be down to the city for a visit later this month and plan to hit the hooch while i am there. i will share any photos of my catches.


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## Randy (Jul 3, 2014)

Old Dead River said:


> it was recognized as a separate species in the nineties, previously the record was considered to be a redeye, with some suggesting the big fish (shoal bass) as a redeye subspecies.
> 
> the redeye thing is more confusing because the riverine fish are small, yet there are some that inhabit reservoirs that have grown to sizes comparable to shoalies, maybe this hybrid is one of the fish I'm thinking of, maybe randy can shed light on this


 I think what Mark means is the shoal bass was recognized by fishermen as a separate species.  I am sure Mark knows that James Williams and George Burgess actually identified them as such scientifically in 1999.

Mark is also right regarding the Red Eye record from SC which I think was actually caught in a reservior not a river.


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## Randy (Jul 3, 2014)

Old Dead River said:


> I had always thought smallmouth required more oxygenated water, west point doesn't strike me as place they would flourish and reproduce, am I missing something?



West Point probably will not substantiate a significant population most being those that came from up stream, but they are there.  And in some cases they appear to be hybridized with other species like spots.


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## lampern (Jul 3, 2014)

Old Dead River said:


> I had always thought smallmouth required more oxygenated water, west point doesn't strike me as place they would flourish and reproduce, am I missing something?



I doubt they would flourish there.

Especially as West Point already has spotted bass, right?


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## Cashvaluerecovery (Jul 4, 2014)

Old Dead River said:


> it was recognized as a separate species in the nineties, previously the record was considered to be a redeye, with some suggesting the big fish (shoal bass) as a redeye subspecies.
> 
> the redeye thing is more confusing because the riverine fish are small, yet there are some that inhabit reservoirs that have grown to sizes comparable to shoalies, maybe this hybrid is one of the fish I'm thinking of, maybe randy can shed light on this
> 
> ...



 I grew up near that section of river in the 90s. That is when I saw more of them and larger ones but even then its not like they were a guaranteed thing. Shoal bass during that time were very uncommon. In 1991 there was a massive large mouth run the likes of which I never saw again. Im talking 35 fish a day at morgan falls - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - averaging 3-8lbs. We fished it HARD during spring break and that is when we occasionally caught a small mouth in the 2-4lb range mixed in with the large mouths.

 It was mainly from 1988-1994 when I caught more numbers of smallies but again, those numbers was never high, but if you wade fished from the raft put in above 285 and got out further down stream you could almost guarantee yourself 1 a trip with a couple shoalies mixed into the already mixed bag. Stripers werent really around during this time.

 Forward that to the mid 2000s. They started stocking shoalies in the area and they were flat out everywhere again. Tiny but everywhere. Over the next few years you would catch some better ones with occasional monster 2lber lol. They just arent big yet but the shoalies are doing better.

 Now as far as how do I know it was small mouths instead of shoalies. The water temperature remains fairly consistent for each season. Shoalies in that area tend to be very dark and their stripes are very uniformed and very noticeably tiger like. There mouth for the length of the fish is overall bigger than the small mouths by quite a bit. If you cant a 2lb small mouth its mouth is no bigger than a 1lb shoalie. The main way I notice a difference though is I have caught many many smallies on blue ridge lake and have handled so many that the little differences become quite noticeable. River small mouth do not act just like shoalies either. Many of the smallies hang out in deep slack water like the large mouths do. The shoalies almost every single time are either in slow current near by to fast current or sitting behind a rock right in the current. As for pictures im quite sure I have some but you will have to tell me how to share polaroid haha. I havent taken pictures of bass in a while.

Ive caught probably north of 300 small mouth over 20 years and probably nearly the same in shoalies id guess. Their face and head and jaw line set up is different. The body shape is different. They act different. Color though on the hooch is the biggy. Shoalies are dark when small mouth of more brown and bronze and their lines are quite as noticeable in that cold water. Hope this helps.


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## Old Dead River (Jul 6, 2014)

Cashvaluerecovery said:


> I grew up near that section of river in the 90s. That is when I saw more of them and larger ones but even then its not like they were a guaranteed thing. Shoal bass during that time were very uncommon. In 1991 there was a massive large mouth run the likes of which I never saw again. Im talking 35 fish a day at morgan falls - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - averaging 3-8lbs. We fished it HARD during spring break and that is when we occasionally caught a small mouth in the 2-4lb range mixed in with the large mouths.
> 
> It was mainly from 1988-1994 when I caught more numbers of smallies but again, those numbers was never high, but if you wade fished from the raft put in above 285 and got out further down stream you could almost guarantee yourself 1 a trip with a couple shoalies mixed into the already mixed bag. Stripers werent really around during this time.
> 
> ...



easiest way to share polaroids would be to take a photo with your camera phone of the polaroid and then host it on photobucket or facebook and then post it here, or attach it here

would love to see


I wonder what species the drove of bass I saw in that creekmouth below morgan falls were


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## Cashvaluerecovery (Jul 6, 2014)

Old Dead River said:


> easiest way to share polaroids would be to take a photo with your camera phone of the polaroid and then host it on photobucket or facebook and then post it here, or attach it here
> 
> would love to see
> 
> ...



 Ive seen redeye in there. Ive also caught several koi goldfish and I swear it to ya right now I caught a tilapia years ago. Im sure there are more weird species in there that people put in or their pond pets flooded into.


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## ShoalBandit (Jul 7, 2014)

BR400 said:


> Are There Smallmouths In The Chattahoochee Near Atlanta?


Yes unfortunately smallmouth bass (from Lake Blue Ridge) were introduced to the Chattahoochee River below Morgan Falls. I was told the individual responsible lived on or near the Chattahoochee (at the time) so he basically wanted smallmouth in ‘his’ backyard.  Nonnative smallmouth bass are also being introduced to West Point Lake and Logan Martin.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=797826&highlight=shoal

BTW you also have nonnative spotted bass (M. punctulatus) and nonnative Alabama "spotted" bass (M. henshalli) in the Chattahoochee below Morgan Falls—all three frequently hybridize with each other and native shoal bass producing fertile hybrid offspring that can reproduce with other hybrids or backcross with either parental species. For this reason a lot of the non-largemouth bass caught between Morgan Falls and West Point will be some kind of hybrid. This makes identification of some fish difficult (if not impossible) depending on the level of introgression. Biologists working the Chattahoochee sample fish all the time that look like shoal bass only to find they contain DNA from multiple species. 



Old Dead River said:


> I had always thought smallmouth required more oxygenated water, west point doesn't strike me as place they would flourish and reproduce, am I missing something?



That’s the biggest problem with nonnative introductions—if conditions are not favorable in the lake (for whatever reason) the fish can/will move up the tributaries flowing into the lake and wipe out native species. We know smallmouth bass in the TVA impoundments avoid competition with other native species by foraging in areas that have more current than largemouth and spotted bass (M. punctulatus) typically prefer. That’s not to say you won’t catch largemouth or spotted bass in areas with a lot of current but more often than not these areas are used by smallmouth bass. The same thing will happen at West Point and Logan Martin unfortunately these areas already contain highly specialized native species.



Old Dead River said:


> the redeye thing is more confusing because the riverine fish are small, yet there are some that inhabit reservoirs that have grown to sizes comparable to shoalies...



Most if not all of the Bartram’s “redeye” bass I’ve seen over 14 inches (including the current South Carolina and Georgia state records) appear to be Bartram’s x Alabama “spotted” bass hybrids. Also for anyone interested the IGFA no longer has a category for “redeye bass”. 

South Carolina state record from Lake Jocassee






Georgia state record from Lake Hartwell





Bartram’s “redeye” bass


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## thedudeabides (Jul 7, 2014)

Old Dead River said:


> I've shared this here before, but circa 2001 I used to live in an apt complex off roswell road that had a large pond and nature trail that backed up to the river just below morgan falls  dam. On a stormy day after the rain had passed I ventured back on the trail with rod and a bobber of some sorts, the creek from the pond ran into the river and in that pocket a large school of bass were using it as a current break. I knew how to bass fish at the time but had put the sport down some years back, I've never seen that many bass together in one space, there were fish from a pound to 7-8 pounds. at the time  I didn't know what a shoal bass was and could not discern the colors of the fish but could distinctly recognize the bass shaped silhouette that automatically gives you chill bumps when you see them mere inches below the surface. I will never forget it and really wish I had been better prepared that day.



I've seen that exact same thing. 5 Bass just chilling in that creek taking a break it seems like. Threw the whole tackle box at them and they didn't give anything a second thought though. Even caught a little brim and threw that and still nothing.


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## BR400 (Jul 7, 2014)

Steve William's Ga. record redeye from Hartwell was certified as a redeye bass and not a Bartam bass by UGA and Clemson biologists.

WOW...I can't believe it has been 10 years since I took that picture.


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## ShoalBandit (Jul 7, 2014)

Populations of “redeye bass” found in the Savannah River drainage represent an undescribed species informally known as Bartram’s bass.

BTW here's a link to a report that has a great pic showing what native Bartram's from Lake Hartwell should look like. This image also contains several Bartram's x Alabama hybrids so you can see what different levels of introgression look like.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=672314&highlight=

Bartram's bass


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## Randy (Jul 7, 2014)

Where have you been man?  You fell off the face of the earth!!


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## Nicodemus (Jul 7, 2014)

ShoalBandit said:


> Populations of “redeye bass” found in the Savannah River drainage represent an undescribed species informally known as Bartram’s bass.
> 
> BTW here's a link to a report that has a great pic showing what native Bartram's from Lake Hartwell should look like. This image also contains several Bartram's x Alabama hybrids so you can see what different levels of introgression look like.
> 
> ...





Those Bartram`s bass are a purty fish. I wonder how close they are to the Suwanee bass?


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## ShoalBandit (Jul 7, 2014)

randy said:


> where have you been man?  You fell off the face of the earth!!


lol



nicodemus said:


> those bartram`s bass are a purty fish. I wonder how close they are to the suwanee bass?


Yes they are—they're actually more closely related to shoal bass.


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## Cashvaluerecovery (Jul 7, 2014)

Nicodemus said:


> Those Bartram`s bass are a purty fish. I wonder how close they are to the Suwanee bass?



Ok lets get this right. In the left column fish 2 and fish 3 are spots if ever i saw one. In the right column the 4th fish down is a baby large mouth. And folks, the first fish in the left column is in fact a redneck bass even though it is mostly black. Im certain of this as I have eaten many of them.


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## Old Dead River (Jul 8, 2014)

ShoalBandit said:


> Yes unfortunately smallmouth bass (from Lake Blue Ridge) were introduced to the Chattahoochee River below Morgan Falls. I was told the individual responsible lived on or near the Chattahoochee (at the time) so he basically wanted smallmouth in ‘his’ backyard.  Nonnative smallmouth bass are also being introduced to West Point Lake and Logan Martin.
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=797826&highlight=shoal
> 
> ...



 We've caught smallmouth mixed in with white bass and largemouth on Pickwick Lake in both Mississippi and Alabama over the years. That's also a huge river that dwarfs these little Ga rivers a hundred times over. Plenty of room for everyone. We lost a tiny smallmouth and about a 3 lb largemouth on consecutive casts on the same main river corner on the edge of a pocket yesterday.

I wouldn't look for the smallmouth introductions in logan martin to gain much of a foothold, those are Alabama bass in there, correct?

I've heard it both ways as to whether spotted bass are indigenous to the hooch, si o no?


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## Randy (Jul 8, 2014)

Spots are not native to the Appalachicola river basin.


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## ShoalBandit (Jul 8, 2014)

Old Dead River said:


> I wouldn't look for the smallmouth introductions in logan martin to gain much of a foothold, those are Alabama bass in there, correct?


The biggest problem with nonnative introductions is introgressive hybridization with native species so they don’t really have to gain a ‘foothold’ to cause long-term or even permanent damage to a fishery. 



Old Dead River said:


> I've heard it both ways as to whether spotted bass are indigenous to the hooch, si o no?



Spotted bass (M. punctulatus) are not native to the ACF River Basin they were introduced below the Fall Line at some point before 1941—that’s when the first spotted bass recorded from the basin were found near the mouth of the Flint River. Spotted bass were not found above the Fall Line on the Chattahoochee side until 1968 so dams in the Columbus area (constructed 1834-1926) appear to have limited upstream movement of the population from below the Fall Line. Also on the Flint side spotted bass only made it above Chehaw (constructed 1920) and Blackshear in the last few decades. This evidence and the high-level of introgression with native shoal bass suggests spotted bass aren't native to the ACF Basin and were in fact introduced.

Alabama bass (M. henshalli) were introduced to Lake Lanier around 1970 and are wiping out native shoal bass and the recently described Chattahoochee bass through introgressive hybridization in the Chestatee and Chattahoochee rivers.


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## lampern (Jul 8, 2014)

So I take it the stockings of purebred shoal bass below Lanier are a failure basically because they are hybridizing with spotted bass?


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## Old Dead River (Jul 8, 2014)

ShoalBandit said:


> The biggest problem with nonnative introductions is introgressive hybridization with native species so they don’t really have to gain a ‘foothold’ to cause long-term or even permanent damage to a fishery.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



could you tell us more about the Chattahoochee bass? do you think if Alabama bass had not been introduced into Lanier, there would've been a shoal bass fishery in the lake. I know some are caught for time to time and there's plenty of rocks but perhaps not enough current.

also, is the Alabama bass the same thing as the larger/more aggressive coosa strain? is it really a separate species and not merely a subspecies and why?


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## ShoalBandit (Jul 9, 2014)

lampern said:


> So I take it the stockings of purebred shoal bass below Lanier are a failure basically because they are hybridizing with spotted bass?



It’s most likely a combination of several factors but just so everyone knows the shoal bass were stocked below Morgan Falls. The river immediately below Lanier is just too cold to support a warmwater fishery so no attempt has been made to restore the population there. 

The shoal bass ‘stock’ 

In a natural, free-flowing river (like the upper Flint) you have multiple subpopulations of shoal bass that spawn at different times and in distinctly different habitats. This is the quick version but some spawn in shoals along the mainstem of the river, some travel up large tributaries to spawn and others spawn (later) in slow-moderate flowing runs. Different populations of shoal bass in the same river have developed different strategies to cope with highly variable and unpredictable river flow patterns. If we get a lot of rain the tributaries will have a more productive spawn because they recover faster than the mainstem, during a drought year the runs will be more productive, and in an average year all areas will be productive. Having multiple strategies guarantees at least one population of shoal bass will be able to spawn. 

The Chattahoochee River

After you get a mile below Paces Ferry Rd. there really isn’t a lot of natural shoal habitat in the mainstem of the Chattahoochee until you get to Heard County. That’s because the Chattahoochee River flows along an ancient fault line called the Brevard Fault Zone. This fault line prevents the river channel from turning south like other Piedmont rivers have over time. Once you get to Heard County the river channel turns south and cuts directly across the structural trend in the bedrock forming large shoals similar to those found on the Flint and Ocmulgee rivers. 

Habitat loss

While there is shoal habitat on the mainstem from Paces Ferry to Morgan Falls Dam I think the water more often than not is too high and too cold for shoal bass to have consistently good spawns there. That’s why I think tributaries like Sweetwater Creek, Snake Creek, Dog River and even Bear Creek were historically very important to the shoal bass population in this part of the river. These tributaries provided natural spawning conditions and nursery habitat for young shoal bass to grow and mature before moving out to the main river. Unfortunately, reservoirs were constructed on Bear Creek (1980), Dog River (1992, expanded 2009), and Snake Creek (2001) and a few years ago another dam was constructed near the mouth of Sweetwater Creek (the largest and most important tributary) eliminating most if not all of this critical habitat.

Dam on Sweetwater Creek as seen on Bing Maps






Chattahoochee ‘stock’ shoal bass were used for this project but if the fingerlings were raised in a pond or some hatchery it probably doesn’t matter—shoal bass appear to have very specific life history strategies refined by natural selection over long periods of time. Will shoal bass taken from the Chattahoochee River near Columbus instinctively know how, where, and when to spawn below Morgan Falls or will they be ‘domesticated’ by the hatchery experience? 

Nonnative species

In addition to nonnative spotted bass (M. punctulatus) you also have nonnative Alabama bass (M. henshalli), nonnative smallmouth bass, and combinations of all three below Morgan Falls = doesn’t help.   

Striped bass

Gulf strain striped bass have been stocked in West Point since 2005. I’m not going to blame it all on the stripers but it can’t help. I don’t know if you can realistically have a great striper fishery and hope to restore the shoal bass population below Morgan Falls…guess we’ll find out.


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## ShoalBandit (Jul 9, 2014)

Old Dead River said:


> could you tell us more about the Chattahoochee bass?


The redeye bass was split into five species last year with each new species restricted to a single drainage—the Chattahoochee bass (M. chattahoochae) is restricted to the Chattahoochee River. Redeye bass (M. coosae) are restricted to the Coosa River and the Tallapoosa bass (M. tallapoosae) is restricted to the Tallapoosa River. In Alabama there’s a Cahaba bass (M. cahabae) restricted to the Cahaba River and the Warrior bass (M. warriorensis) restricted to the Warrior River. 

Chattahoochee bass





Redeye bass





Within these river systems all of these species are further restricted to streams above the Fall Line that retain free-flowing characteristics among several manmade impoundments so they have already been reduced to a limited number of fragmented populations. This is not unlike the situation with the shoal bass, which also persist as a limited, but somewhat smaller number of fragmented populations however all shoal bass populations are currently at risk of extirpation from one or more nonnative species.



Old Dead River said:


> do you think if Alabama bass had not been introduced into Lanier, there would've been a shoal bass fishery in the lake. I know some are caught for time to time and there's plenty of rocks but perhaps not enough current.


Highly unlikely (not enough current) but it would’ve been a great largemouth fishery similar to Hartwell or Russell back in the day (before Alabama bass).  



Old Dead River said:


> also, is the Alabama bass the same thing as the larger/more aggressive coosa strain? is it really a separate species and not merely a subspecies and why?


Yes they’re the same. The Alabama bass (M. henshalli) was elevated as a valid species in 2008 and is native to the Mobile River basin—the Coosa River being the largest subwatershed of that system. Alabama bass are more closely related to redeye bass (M. coosae) and the other recently described species native to the Mobile River basin. 

Spotted bass (M. punctulatus) are actually more closely related to smallmouth bass. Both species diverged relatively recently from a common ancestor and are native to the Mississippi River Basin.

In addition to the genetic data Alabama bass grow considerably larger than spotted bass most likely due to the northern range of the spotted bass which extends up the Ohio River drainage. Nonnative spotted bass in Georgia (West Point, Bartlett’s Ferry) rarely exceed 3 pounds while Native Alabama bass (Weiss, Carters, Allatoona) and nonnative Alabama bass (Lanier, Burton, Chatuge, Hartwell, etc…) commonly exceed 5 pounds. BTW all of the IGFA world records for spotted bass (California) are actually Alabama bass.


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## Randy (Jul 9, 2014)

Shoal bandit, you say the red eye was split into 5 separate species last year?  Aren't the really strains and not actual genetically different species? Like the Florida strain of largemouth is still a largemouth.?


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## Randy (Jul 9, 2014)

Ok I asked a biologist friend of mine about this and got his response:

the redeye bass has been proposed to be broken up into 5 species spanning from the Black Warrior River in western AL to the Hooch, one for each river basin.  That is the state of the science as of now, but I am told that there are major issues with the genetics and the taxonomy in that paper, and we expect challenges.  Personally, I have a hard time believing that the Warrior, Cahaba, Coosa, and Tallapoosa could present 4 distinct species when they all are part of the Mobile Drainage.......

So apparently this is why I have not read about it yet.  Seems it has been proposed but not done.  Not trying to call you out, I am just very interested in the bass (all black bass) and try and keep up with the species.  I thought I might have missed something.  Thanks for bringing this to my attention...


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## ShoalBandit (Jul 9, 2014)

All of those drainage connections in the Mobile basin are below the Fall Line so these fish haven’t been able to move between them for a really long time (if ever) due to strict habitat requirements and the fact that you do not have Chattahoochee bass in the Flint River drainage is compelling evidence they have never used drainage connections below the Fall Line. How long is long enough? I guess we'll find out if/when the genetic data is challenged. It may not be species-level variation but I support it because these fish really are different and I think other species like shoal bass will only benefit from any protection they receive.


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## ShoalBandit (Jul 9, 2014)

Red Sticks said:


> My understanding is that “dam” is where the city of East Point pulls their water from the creek. They own the land Sparks reservoir (the lake at Sweetwater Creek State Park) lies on, and they built the dam that created the reservoir to maintain a minimum flow in the creek as they pulled water from it downstream. They built the reservoir in 1963, so I would think that “dam” has been there a long time.
> 
> I’d love to get a closer look at it, but I’m pretty sure that area is fenced off and gated. I think that dam may be low enough that at times of high water levels or flooding, it could be totally underwater and allow fish to travel upstream, but I don’t know that for sure. I think it would be safe to say it was underwater during the flood of 2009 when the water was 30’ above normal, but I don’t know if it has been since then.
> 
> There were shoalies upstream a few years ago, I couldn’t swear to it now though. I believe it’s mostly spots now.


Thanks for the info I haven't been able to find much on that dam but the riprap and the color of the concrete on the intake structure and the dam itself suggest it may only be a few years old. Of course I could be wrong but that's my best guess at this point.


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## The Longhunter (Jul 9, 2014)

ShoalBandit said:


> All of those drainage connections in the Mobile basin are below the Fall Line so these fish haven't been able to move between them (due to strict habitat requirements) for a really long time. How long is long enough? I guess we'll find out when the genetic data is challenged. It may not be species-level variation but I support it because these fish really are different and I think other species like shoal bass will only benefit from any protection they receive.




So what happened to the Piedmont (redeye) Bass from the Broad River?


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## ShoalBandit (Jul 9, 2014)

The Longhunter said:


> So what happened to the Piedmont (redeye) Bass from the Broad River?


Hasn't been officially described but is recognized informally as 'Bartram's bass'.


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## ShoalBandit (Jul 9, 2014)

Red Sticks said:


> Your guess could be right. Maybe it was built after the drought years 2007-2008. I may ask one of the rangers down there if they know. If I find out anything, I'll post it here.


Thanks I'm going to check with the riverkeeper if I find out anything I'll do the same.


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## speechless33759 (Jul 9, 2014)

ShoalBandit said:


> Yes unfortunately smallmouth bass (from Lake Blue Ridge) were introduced to the Chattahoochee River below Morgan Falls. I was told the individual responsible lived on or near the Chattahoochee (at the time) so he basically wanted smallmouth in ‘his’ backyard.  Nonnative smallmouth bass are also being introduced to West Point Lake and Logan Martin.
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=797826&highlight=shoal
> 
> ...



Amazing looking fish! Thanks for sharing the pictures.


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## Old Dead River (Jul 10, 2014)

one problem, I find it hard to believe the alabama bass is more closely related to the smallmouth rather than the Kentucky spotted bass. morphologically speaking the spotted bass and Alabama bass look very similar. if I'm following you, you're describing formerly the Kentucky and coosa strains. both the spotted and Alabama bass have a similar mouth size and body shape yet you propose that the Alabama is more closely related to the smallie... yet the Alabama looks virtually identical to the Kentucky spot? seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

and for the sake of clarity, when you say recently I'm sure you're talking millions upon millions of years?

there is an isolated population of shoalies between Buford dam and morgan falls, was it big creek or something, it was in a published paper - they are unfortunately very inbred.

and re: warm water ecosystem. if not for the Buford dam being erected that stretch of the river would be a warm water system teaming with shoal bass throughout.


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## ShoalBandit (Jul 10, 2014)

Red Sticks said:


> So, that thing is called a weir ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weir ), and according to the ranger, who has been there for like 30 years, off and on, the weir, or something like it, maybe just riprap, has been there since the beginning, in the 60's, but it may have been modified over the years. He says fish can pass over it, except in times of drought. I'm not sure how much of an authority he is on that point. He's not a biologist.


Well that's interesting thanks again for the info.


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## ShoalBandit (Jul 10, 2014)

Old Dead River said:


> one problem, I find it hard to believe the alabama bass is more closely related to the smallmouth rather than the Kentucky spotted bass. morphologically speaking the spotted bass and Alabama bass look very similar. if I'm following you, you're describing formerly the Kentucky and coosa strains. both the spotted and Alabama bass have a similar mouth size and body shape yet you propose that the Alabama is more closely related to the smallie... yet the Alabama looks virtually identical to the Kentucky spot? seems like a bit of a stretch to me.



I think you misread some of the information that was posted. Here's the original post...



ShoalBandit said:


> Spotted bass (M. punctulatus) are actually more closely related to smallmouth bass. Both species diverged relatively recently from a common ancestor and are native to the Mississippi River Basin.





Old Dead River said:


> and for the sake of clarity, when you say recently I'm sure you're talking millions upon millions of years?



I've attached a time-calibrated phylogram so the relationships can be seen more clearly. Unfortunately this one by Thomas Near is from 2003 so it doesn't have the Alabama bass (M. henshalli) described in 2008 or the undescribed Bartram's bass—but thanks to work done by Bud Freeman at UGA (and others) we know Alabama bass are most closely related to redeye bass (M. coosae) and the other recently described species from the Mobile basin, while Bartram's bass in the upper Altamaha and Savannah river basins are most closely related to shoal bass (M. cataractae).  








Old Dead River said:


> there is an isolated population of shoalies between Buford dam and morgan falls, was it big creek or something, it was in a published paper - they are unfortunately very inbred.



Yes there's a small, isolated population in Big Creek with limited genetic diversity however, Big Creek is a long way from Buford Dam. For those not familiar with Big Creek it enters Bull Sluice Lake next to Roswell Rd. This population was also found to be genetically distinct from the population below Morgan Falls—another reason shoal bass were not stocked above Morgan Falls Dam.  



Old Dead River said:


> and re: warm water ecosystem. if not for the Buford dam being erected that stretch of the river would be a warm water system teaming with shoal bass throughout.



Yes


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## mtr3333 (Jul 10, 2014)

ShoalBandit. Thanks for your detailed specifics.


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## Old Dead River (Jul 10, 2014)

now let's see a the photos again of what may've been the world record shoalie that you caught and released. I recognized your avatar and remember your posts. Great information. I had read sometime back about the potential elevation of the Alabama bass to a separate species but didn't know it happened. I have also read of proponents of elevating micropterus floridanus as a separate species.

can you discern the difference between a Kentucky spot and an Alabama bass by merely looking at them?


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## Crappie Dude (Jul 11, 2014)

Now this has been a super cool thread.  Lot's of fish biology talk!


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## Old Dead River (Jul 11, 2014)

Crappie Dude said:


> Now this has been a super cool thread.  Lot's of fish biology talk!



heavy boy, been on hiatus. nice suwannee bass in your avatar.


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## fishmonger (Jul 11, 2014)

Great thread.

I caught this last weekend on the Hooch, and I think it is a smallmouth. Opinions?









FM


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## Crappie Dude (Jul 12, 2014)

ODR....The only thing heavy are the fish I catch! ha ha

Yes...caught that Suwannee Bass and several others on the Wacissa River (Florida) back in April.

Fishmonger-That fish looks like a smallmouth bass, but then again it does have vertical bars like a shoal bass..............As you have read earlier in the thread, both species reside in the hootch, so it could be hybrid...


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## ShoalBandit (Jul 12, 2014)

Old Dead River said:


> now let's see a the photos again of what may've been the world record shoalie that you caught and released. I recognized your avatar and remember your posts. Great information.


Thanks but just to be clear it was not THE world record shoal bass (8-12). It wasn’t even a state record (8-3). It was an IGFA line class record (8-2). 







BTW to surpass and replace (not tie) a Georgia state record your fish must exceed the record weight by at least one full ounce. The fish I caught was almost two ounces short of this requirement so I released it. The IGFA world record requirement (for fish under 25 pounds) is two full ounces—that means it will take an 8-14 shoal bass to replace the current all-tackle world record for shoal bass (8-12).



Old Dead River said:


> I had read sometime back about the potential elevation of the Alabama bass to a separate species but didn't know it happened. I have also read of proponents of elevating micropterus floridanus as a separate species.



The Alabama bass (M. henshalli) was elevated to species status in 2008 by the same group that just split the redeye bass. Yes the Florida bass (M. floridanus) was published and last time I checked the species designation was valid.



Old Dead River said:


> can you discern the difference between a Kentucky spot and an Alabama bass by merely looking at them?



Yes you can tell the difference but in areas where both species have been introduced (like below Morgan Falls and the Columbus area) it can be difficult, if not impossible due to the high level of introgression.

Spotted bass (M. punctulatus) aka Kentucky or northern spotted bass: The individual lateral markings or blotches, more often than not will be larger than those found on the Alabama bass (M. henshalli). Because of this, there will be fewer of them down the midline of the fish. These markings are also typically closer together with fewer spaces between them, especially along the tail where they almost always coalesce into a broad dark stripe. This can make the individual markings difficult to count (another sign it’s a spotted bass) but there’s almost always less than 15 total with most spotted bass having around 13. Also, the dorsolateral markings typically extend all the way ‘north’ to the base of the dorsal fin on a spotted bass.  






Alabama bass (M. henshalli) aka Alabama spotted bass or Coosa spotted bass: The individual lateral markings more often than not will be smaller than those found on spotted bass (M. punctulatus).  Because of this, there will be more of them down the midline of the fish. These markings also typically have more spaces between them and they almost never coalesce into a dark stripe along the tail. This makes the individual markings relatively easy to count. Alabama bass almost always have at least 15 (or more) of these individual lateral markings or blotches. Also, the dorsolateral markings typically DO NOT extend all the way to the base of the dorsal fin.






Exceptions: We’ve already mentioned the Bartram’s x Alabama hybrids in the upper Altamaha and Savannah river basins, but you also have shoal x Alabama hybrids above Lake Lanier and below Lake Jackson where Alabama bass have been introduced. 





Chattahoochee x Alabama hybrids are also common in the Chestatee and Chattahoochee rivers above Lake Lanier.





Alabama x redeye hybrids from the Mobile River basin where both species are native. These ‘natural’ hybrids are most likely sterile because introgression beyond the first (F1) generation is rare.


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## ShoalBandit (Jul 12, 2014)

fishmonger said:


> Great thread.
> 
> I caught this last weekend on the Hooch, and I think it is a smallmouth. Opinions?
> 
> ...



This looks like some of the hybrids I've seen below Morgan Falls. Hard to tell from a photo but the coloration on the head of this fish (particularly the maxillary) in the second image makes it resemble a smallmouth. This fish also has really dark pelvic fins like ALL smallmouth while the pelvic fins on most shoal bass have a white translucent appearance. Even on a really dark shoal bass the entire pelvic fin is rarely dark.

Smallmouth bass






















Shoal bass


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## Tmpr111 (Jul 12, 2014)

Crappie Dude said:


> ODR....The only thing heavy are the fish I catch! ha ha
> 
> Yes...caught that Suwannee Bass and several others on the Wacissa River (Florida) back in April.
> 
> Fishmonger-That fish looks like a smallmouth bass, but then again it does have vertical bars like a shoal bass..............As you have read earlier in the thread, both species reside in the hootch, so it could be hybrid...



Sweet, I was born and raised in Jefferson County, the Wacissa and Aucilla River are my home rivers.  Beautiful places!  Full of redeye and LM bass!  Gators too


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## Old Dead River (Jul 12, 2014)

Crappie Dude said:


> ODR....The only thing heavy are the fish I catch! ha ha
> 
> Yes...caught that Suwannee Bass and several others on the Wacissa River (Florida) back in April.
> 
> Fishmonger-That fish looks like a smallmouth bass, but then again it does have vertical bars like a shoal bass..............As you have read earlier in the thread, both species reside in the hootch, so it could be hybrid...



Both have vertical bars granted a snallies.look a bit different


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## Old Dead River (Jul 12, 2014)

Very nice info i vaguely remember the thread. why not post a pic
of you holding it so we can get.an appreciation for how big an 8 lb shoalie is. do you believe the record size is the critical mass of the species or coukd there be 10 lb shoalies?


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## patcavscout (Jul 13, 2014)

Randy said:


> And yes the DNR has been stocking shoalies in that area.  Catch and release is the way to grow larger fish.



And grow the population. Oddly enough down here in most of the lower 48 we can only harvest fish if they are over a certain size. But up in Alaska once some fish reach a certain size you have to release them. The logic is because larger fish produce more roe they want to keep them in the waters so that they can yield more offspring. Interesting concept for sure.


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## Old Dead River (Jul 13, 2014)

patcavscout said:


> And grow the population. Oddly enough down here in most of the lower 48 we can only harvest fish if they are over a certain size. But up in Alaska once some fish reach a certain size you have to release them. The logic is because larger fish produce more roe they want to keep them in the waters so that they can yield more offspring. Interesting concept for sure.



with largemouth bass there is some research that suggests that their peak reproductive fitness is between four and eight pounds. thereafter their spawns will not be as productive. having said that, to my mind, if that fish is still in circulation whatever it yields via the spawn will sew those genes. I think you have to put back the 10 lber because it will become a 12 lber and so on. So I see multiple reasons for releasing big fish.

I am exclusively catch and release on shoal bass, I have considered keeping specimens to have cast as replicas to boost conservation and inhibit people from skinmounting them but have only had a few specimens in hand that may've been worthy and I couldn't do it. With the invasive nature of spotted bass, the fishing pressure from less enlightened anglers, and the limited habitat I think you just about have to release shoal bass if you enjoy fishing for them.


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## Crappie Dude (Jul 13, 2014)

Shoal bandit:That's a great point about the pelvic fins being almost translucent or clear on a shoal bass but yet dark on a smallmouth.


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## Old Dead River (Jul 13, 2014)

Crappie Dude said:


> Shoal bandit:That's a great point about the pelvic fins being almost translucent or clear on a shoal bass but yet dark on a smallmouth.



it is, with the exception of distinguishing these hybrids, the shoal bass really looks radically different than the smallmouth to me. for the most part the body is substantially shaped different, smally having a squattier more rotundly fat body esp. in the shoulders, and of course the size of the mouth. the coloration as well. it's unfortunate that a small system like the hooch has so many black bass species smelting together...


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## Old Dead River (Jul 14, 2014)

I spoke to a well known guide on Lanier, he said the spotted bass in Lanier are not Alabama bass rather that they are Kentucky spotted bass. I'm not trying to start an argument here, but could someone point me to some data evidence that confirms of denies the different assertions as to the genetics of lake lanier spotted bass?


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## redneck_billcollector (Jul 16, 2014)

ShoalBandit said:


> All of those drainage connections in the Mobile basin are below the Fall Line so these fish haven’t been able to move between them for a really long time (if ever) due to strict habitat requirements and the fact that you do not have Chattahoochee bass in the Flint River drainage is compelling evidence they have never used drainage connections below the Fall Line. How long is long enough? I guess we'll find out if/when the genetic data is challenged. It may not be species-level variation but I support it because these fish really are different and I think other species like shoal bass will only benefit from any protection they receive.



I might be missing something, and I am sure that I am, what are you calling a Chattahoochee bass?  Is it a form of shoal bass?  Spotted bass? Redeye bass?  Cause I catch more shoal bass in the Flint below the fall line, and nice sized ones at that, than I do above the fall line.  Mitchell Co. Baker Co. (pretty much the same stretch as Mitchell Co.) and on down to Decatur Co.  I have also caught them on the Apalachicola river not far below the dam.  Been catching them for almost 40 years off and on.  Caught one last weekend below Albany......Never really fished for them on the Chattahoochee but the shoal bass I have known for most all my life thrives below the fall line. I have seen one caught by an individual back in the 90s that was headed and gutted and it was over 8lbs... (Mitchell Co.) Deep bodied and tiger stripped to beat all.  I have caught numerous Largemouths over 10lbs (went through a two decade phase of fishing wild shinners exclusively for largemouths) and this fish would have been as big as any of those bass.

I apologize if I misunderstood what you were saying...


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## ShoalBandit (Jul 17, 2014)

redneck_billcollector said:


> I might be missing something, and I am sure that I am, what are you calling a Chattahoochee bass?  Is it a form of shoal bass?  Spotted bass? Redeye bass?...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A species description to distinguish the Chattahoochee bass (and three additional forms) as separate species was submitted last year. As it stands now, this work is still under review so they’re officially described as redeye bass (for now) but informally recognized as ‘Chattahoochee bass’.

Chattahoochee bass (M. chattahoochae) at one time likely inhabited the mainstem Chattahoochee and its tributaries all the way to the Columbus area but today distribution is restricted (for the most part) to northern Lumpkin, White, and Habersham Co.


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## Old Dead River (Jul 17, 2014)

I spoke to a biologist that worked for the state and he said there are Alabama bass in Lanier but he's given me a couple of other suggestions for people to contact that will have better information on the genetics in Lanier. From what I understand the results of fin clippings may not be back yet.


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## Old Dead River (Jul 17, 2014)

ShoalBandit said:


> A species description to distinguish the Chattahoochee bass (and three additional forms) as separate species was submitted last year. As it stands now, this work is still under review so they’re officially described as redeye bass (for now) but informally recognized as ‘Chattahoochee bass’.
> 
> Chattahoochee bass (M. chattahoochae) at one time likely inhabited the mainstem Chattahoochee and its tributaries all the way to the Columbus area but today distribution is restricted (for the most part) to northern Lumpkin, White, and Habersham Co.



are all these different types of redeyes truly different species genetically?

sometimes I wonder if this all isn't taxonomy for the sake of taxonomy- more for geography. I had a good discussion with the biologist about all these subdivisions of the black bass and he mentioned how it conflicted with basic biology - the very essence of a species.

"Species -Biology . the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species.

all of these different species can successfully interbreed. I get it that the florida bass and northern bass are different genetically but they look reasonably similar, both have adapted to suit their environment. Intergrades that are ideally adapted for their respective geography and climates have emerged over millions of years as a result , especially in our state where the only pure salmoides or floridanus are in stocked ponds. Our state fish is an intergrade, a natural intergrade that is millions of years removed from being a filial 1 hybrid that some of us have been lucky enough to wrestle with in scarce, designer lakes and ponds across the state. Our state fish is a mut - the Montgomery strain.

Kind of funny, the latin name of the Alabama bass was named after a guy that espoused the view that there were essentially two bass, a largemouth and a smallmouth haha. talk about irony. some legacy huh?


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