# I thought Catholics don't read the Bible?



## dawg2

Pope to lead marathon Bible reading on Italian TV  



  Pope Benedict XVI will kick off a week-long reading of the Bible on Italian television starting Sunday, with readers to include three former presidents and Oscar-winning actor Roberto Benigni. 
Some 2,000 people will take turns reading the Bible's 73 books, from the Old Testament's Genesis to the New Testament's Book of Revelations, at Rome's Holy Cross in Jerusalem basilica. 

The pope will record the first reading at the Vatican. 

Senator for life Giulio Andreotti, former presidents Francesco Cossiga, Oscar Luigi Scalfaro and Carlo Azeglio Ciampi as well as several ministers in the centre-right government of Silvio Berlusconi including his top aide Gianni Letta will be among the readers. 

From the world of entertainment, Benigni ("Life Is Beautiful") will be joined by filmmaker Michele Placido and blind tenor Andrea Bocelli. 

A number of Muslims and Jews will also take part, but Rome's grand rabbi Riccardo Di Segni declined an invitation, telling Italian media the event seemed "too Catholic" for him though he had total respect for the initiative. 

Di Segni will however become the first Jewish holy man to take part in a bishops' synod to open Sunday at the Vatican. 

The Jewish holy book the Torah comprises the first five books of the Old Testament, while the New Testament is exclusive to Christianity. 

Muslims consider the Bible as a precursor to their holy book, the Koran.


----------



## gordon 2

dawg2 said:


> Pope to lead marathon Bible reading on Italian TV
> 
> 
> 
> Pope Benedict XVI will kick off a week-long reading of the Bible on Italian television starting Sunday, with readers to include three former presidents and Oscar-winning actor Roberto Benigni.
> Some 2,000 people will take turns reading the Bible's 73 books, from the Old Testament's Genesis to the New Testament's Book of Revelations, at Rome's Holy Cross in Jerusalem basilica.
> 
> The pope will record the first reading at the Vatican.
> 
> Senator for life Giulio Andreotti, former presidents Francesco Cossiga, Oscar Luigi Scalfaro and Carlo Azeglio Ciampi as well as several ministers in the centre-right government of Silvio Berlusconi including his top aide Gianni Letta will be among the readers.
> 
> From the world of entertainment, Benigni ("Life Is Beautiful") will be joined by filmmaker Michele Placido and blind tenor Andrea Bocelli.
> 
> A number of Muslims and Jews will also take part, but Rome's grand rabbi Riccardo Di Segni declined an invitation, telling Italian media the event seemed "too Catholic" for him though he had total respect for the initiative.
> 
> Di Segni will however become the first Jewish holy man to take part in a bishops' synod to open Sunday at the Vatican.
> 
> The Jewish holy book the Torah comprises the first five books of the Old Testament, while the New Testament is exclusive to Christianity.
> 
> Muslims consider the Bible as a precursor to their holy book, the Koran.



Heard today that,it is a Rabbi from Jerusalem that will kick-off the whole bit by lectureing on how the Jews read the bible.


----------



## dawg2

gordon 2 said:


> Heard today that,it is a Rabbi from Jerusalem that will kick-off the whole bit by lectureing on how the Jews read the bible.



That will work!


----------



## gordon 2

I was not asked to comment at this conference but if I had been asked to participate I would  have lectured on Genesis and the part about where Eve said to Adam, "Adam, I don't like the neighbourhood, we have to move?"


My conference heading would be Scripture: Speculations and Spiritual Realestate


----------



## PWalls

Just to stir the pot a little. 

I was told by a Baptist preacher one day that ex-Catholics make the best Baptists.


----------



## PJason

PWalls said:


> Just to stir the pot a little.
> 
> I was told by a Baptist preacher one day that ex-Catholics make the best Baptists.




It's because they are confused and easily plied.


----------



## Mako22

If they really read the Bible then they would not be Catholics for long.


----------



## dawg2

PJason said:


> It's because they are confused and easily plied.





PWalls said:


> Just to stir the pot a little.
> 
> I was told by a Baptist preacher one day that ex-Catholics make the best Baptists.



ACTUALLY:  Ex-Baptists make the best Catholics.  I go to church more now than when my wife was a Baptist 



Woodsman69 said:


> If they really read the Bible then they would not be Catholics for long.



They wrote the Bible


----------



## Mako22

dawg2 said:


> They wrote the Bible



No they didn't!


----------



## dawg2

Woodsman69 said:


> No they didn't!



YES they did


----------



## farmasis

dawg2 said:


> YES they did


 
Some folks never heard of

Pope Moses I?

Arch Bishop Saul of Tarsus?

Bisop John of Patmos?


----------



## LKS2

histroically speaking they did 'put together' the New Testment or at least it was done under the supervision of 'the Roman theoligist'  of the day, which later evolved into the Roman Catholic Church.  I believe that was done under the Emporer Constantine.  Catholicism traces its roots back to Constantine.  Its been a few years but I did take world religions class that traced the roots of all the religions of the world.  A very interesting class.  Especially when you come up to the more 'modern' religions and thier roots.  And I did stay at Holiday Inn Express last night.


----------



## Banjo

> They wrote the Bible



Dawg..

What is the deal with the Roman Catholic's Ten Commandments.  Somebody told me yesterday at lunch that they are different than the Protestant's Ten Commandments...So...I looked them up today, and there is a difference.

Who decided to leave out the second one?

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them."


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> Dawg..
> 
> What is the deal with the Roman Catholic's Ten Commandments.  Somebody told me yesterday at lunch that they are different than the Protestant's Ten Commandments...So...I looked them up today, and there is a difference.
> 
> Who decided to leave out the second one?
> 
> "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them."






> Hiding the Second Commandment?
> 
> 
> 
> Another charge sometimes made by Protestants is that the Catholic Church "hides" the second commandment. This is because in Catholic catechisms, the first commandment is often listed as "You shall have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:3), and the second is listed as "You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain." (Ex. 20:7). From this, it is argued that Catholics have deleted the prohibition of idolatry to justify their use of religious statues. But this is false. Catholics simply group the commandments differently from most Protestants.
> 
> In Exodus 20:2–17, which gives the Ten Commandments, there are actually fourteen imperative statements. To arrive at Ten Commandments, some statements have to be grouped together, and there is more than one way of doing this. Since, in the ancient world, polytheism and idolatry were always united—idolatry being the outward expression of polytheism—the historic Jewish numbering of the Ten Commandments has always grouped together the imperatives "You shall have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:3) and "You shall not make for yourself a graven image" (Ex. 20:4). The historic Catholic numbering follows the Jewish numbering on this point, as does the historic Lutheran numbering. Martin Luther recognized that the imperatives against polytheism and idolatry are two parts of a single command.
> 
> Jews and Christians abbreviate the commandments so that they can be remembered using a summary, ten-point formula. For example, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants typically summarize the Sabbath commandment as, "Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy," though the commandment’s actual text takes four verses (Ex. 20:8–11).
> 
> When the prohibition of polytheism/idolatry is summarized, Jews, Catholics, and Lutherans abbreviate it as "You shall have no other gods before me." This is no attempt to "hide" the idolatry prohibition (Jews and Lutherans don’t even use statues of saints and angels). It is to make learning the Ten Commandments easier.
> 
> The Catholic Church is not dogmatic about how the Ten Commandments are to be numbered, however. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confession. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities" (CCC 2066).



http://www.catholic.com/library/do_catholics_worship_statues.asp


----------



## PJason

LKS2 said:


> histroically speaking they did 'put together' the New Testment or at least it was done under the supervision of 'the Roman theoligist'  of the day, which later evolved into the Roman Catholic Church.  I believe that was done under the Emporer Constantine.  Catholicism traces its roots back to Constantine.  Its been a few years but I did take world religions class that traced the roots of all the religions of the world.  A very interesting class.  Especially when you come up to the more 'modern' religions and thier roots.  And I did stay at Holiday Inn Express last night.



Constantine made Christianity the state religion...

True 

False


----------



## Banjo

> This is because in Catholic catechisms, the first commandment is often listed as "You shall have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:3), and the second is listed as "You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain." (Ex. 20:7). From this, it is argued that Catholics have deleted the prohibition of idolatry to justify their use of religious statues. But this is false. Catholics simply group the commandments differently from most Protestants.



So the second commandment is listed somewhere else?  It is there in the Hebrew...


----------



## Banjo

O.k....  I read the statue article from the RC website.  I was under the impression that the RC church consecrated images by priests blessing them.  Then they were placed in people's homes and RC churches.  I also thought incense was offered before these statues and that the people bowed in front of them, kissed them, and prayed to the "spirit represented by the statue."


----------



## PJason

It could also be asked why do the Protestants leave out the the commandment to not covet your nieghbors wife? Maybe they are trying to justify thier lust and divorce?


----------



## Banjo

> It could also be asked why do the Protestants leave out the the commandment to not covet your nieghbors wife? Maybe they are trying to justify thier lust and divorce?



Its not left out:

"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's."

We recite the Ten Commandments in their entirety on a regular basis.


----------



## dawg2

farmasis said:


> Some folks never heard of
> 
> Pope Moses I?
> 
> Arch Bishop Saul of Tarsus?
> 
> Bisop John of Patmos?



Sorry, I should have been more specific-------> New Testament


----------



## Banjo

> Constantine made Christianity the state religion...
> 
> True
> 
> False



True.  In the year 324, he made Christianity the official religion.  As a result of this, thousands of people (who were still pagans) came for entrance into the church; they wanted the special favors and the advantages that church membership afforded them.  More came than could ever be instructed.  In my opinion, this was extremely detrimental as pagan rituals and ideas began to be assimilated into the Church.


----------



## gordon 2

In the world of the canine, and the feline, both sexes can leave high marks in an effort to out-do each other.  The Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom tells me so.


----------



## Banjo

> In the world of the canine, and the feline, both sexes can leave high marks in an effort to out-do each other. The Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom tells me so.





This isn't about female vs. male...

This is more about defending what we believe.


----------



## Banjo

"Pope Benedict XVI, wearing an ermine-trimmed cape, blesses with incense the statue of the Virgin Mary, not seen, in Rome's Piazza di Spagna Square (Spanish Steps) on the occasion of the Immaculate Conception holiday, Friday, Dec. 8, 2006. Making a traditional visit to the Spanish Steps on a holiday dedicated to Mary, the pope prayed that Mary would inspire a respect for human dignity in the world and a repudiation of violence and exploitation."


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> "Pope Benedict XVI, wearing an ermine-trimmed cape, blesses with incense the statue of the Virgin Mary, not seen, in Rome's Piazza di Spagna Square (Spanish Steps) on the occasion of the Immaculate Conception holiday, Friday, Dec. 8, 2006. Making a traditional visit to the Spanish Steps on a holiday dedicated to Mary, the pope prayed that Mary would inspire a respect for human dignity in the world and a repudiation of violence and exploitation."



What of it?

Do you disagree that Mary is the model by which all mothers should live?

What other woman in the bible would you point to as an inspiration to your daughters?


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> Its not left out:
> 
> "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's."
> 
> We recite the Ten Commandments in their entirety on a regular basis.



The point is it is not the listing matters. When you read through Exodus 20:2-17 you could find more then Ten Commandments, the way the verses (which by the way chapters and verses did not enter into the bible until around the 11th century) are combined does not eliminate the meaning of any of them.


----------



## Banjo

> What of it?
> 
> Do you disagree that Mary is the model by which all mothers should live?
> 
> What other woman in the bible would you point to as an inspiration to your daughters?
> ________



Mary is one model, not the model.  I point my daughters to many faithful women:  Hannah, Proverbs 31, Elizabeth, Mary Magdalene, Anna, the Shunamite widow, the woman of Cannan, the poor widow, Lydia, Dorcas, Martha and Mary...

The Pope is blessing Mary's statue with incense.  People bow to, pray to and even kiss her statue.   The are expecting Mary to "inspire" them somehow, rather than Christ.  To a Protestant, that is blasphemous.


----------



## farmasis

dawg2 said:


> Sorry, I should have been more specific-------> New Testament


 
Paul was Catholic? John of Patmos? Timothy?

Did someone tell them?


----------



## Banjo

> The point is it is not the listing matters. When you read through Exodus 20:2-17 you could find more then Ten Commandments, the way the verses (which by the way chapters and verses did not enter into the bible until around the 11th century) are combined does not eliminate the meaning of any of them.



It matters if part of them is left out.  Is the second commandment (as the Hebrew texts dictate) listed in the RC catechism or not? 

Can you find these words in the RC catechism as part of the Ten Commandments:


"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them."

If those words are not present and taught within the RC church as part of the commandments (no matter how you number them), I am asking who decided to leave them out and why.


----------



## dawg2

gordon 2 said:


> In the world of the canine, and the feline, both sexes can leave high marks in an effort to out-do each other.  The Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom tells me so.


----------



## rjcruiser

Banjo said:


> In my opinion, this was extremely detrimental as pagan rituals and ideas began to be assimilated into the Church.



Hmmm...I think one of them was infant baptism


----------



## rjcruiser

Banjo said:


> Mary is one model, not the model.  I point my daughters to many faithful women:  Hannah, Proverbs 31, Elizabeth, Mary Magdalene, Anna, the Shunamite widow, the woman of Cannan, the poor widow, Lydia, Dorcas, Martha and Mary...
> 
> The Pope is blessing Mary's statue with incense.  People bow to, pray to and even kiss her statue.   The are expecting Mary to "inspire" them somehow, rather than Christ.  To a Protestant, that is blasphemous.



You left out a few others...Ruth & Esther....although I don't know if I'd tell my daughter to go sleep at the foot of some man's bed

You must remember though Banjo....Mary was a sinless example and therefore, she was the "perfect" example.  I guess that is yet another thing that Protestants and Catholics disagree on.


----------



## dawg2

rjcruiser said:


> Hmmm...I think one of them was infant baptism



Baptism in general


----------



## Banjo

> Hmmm...I think one of them was infant baptism



Come on now, rj....

The idea of Covenant baptism is as old as circumcision itself....


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> Mary is one model, not the model.  I point my daughters to many faithful women:  Hannah, Proverbs 31, Elizabeth, Mary Magdalene, Anna, the Shunamite widow, the woman of Cannan, the poor widow, Lydia, Dorcas, Martha and Mary...



What better model then Mary the mother of Our Lord? It was the angel of God that called her full of grace; her cousin Elizabeth who called her blessed among women, and it says that she will be called blessed for all time. Find a time when she sinned in the bible, you can not. She was the first Christian, the first to say yes. She always pointed to her son “do as he tells you”; she never abandoned her Son not even at death. 

There is no better example.



Banjo said:


> The Pope is blessing Mary's statue with incense.  People bow to, pray to and even kiss her statue.   The are expecting Mary to "inspire" them somehow, rather than Christ.  To a Protestant, that is blasphemous.



Maybe you should reread what you posted, “The Pope prayed that Mary would inspire”. The example of a person’s life can inspire others, St. Paul has inspired many people’s lives, Calvin and his faith is an inspiration to you, St. Dominic and his life, faith, and teaching is an inspiration to me, an example of a true Christian should always inspire us. It is not an either or proposition, the Pope does not say let Mary inspire you in lieu of Christ.


----------



## rjcruiser

PJason said:


> Find a time when she sinned in the bible, you can not.


Ahh..if we went be that example, I could find a lot of people named in the Bible that never sinned.  That isn't a very good theological belief system---if the Bible doesn't mention it....



			
				PJason said:
			
		

> Maybe you should reread what you posted, “The Pope prayed that Mary would inspire”. The example of a person’s life can inspire others, St. Paul has inspired many people’s lives, Calvin and his faith is an inspiration to you, St. Dominic and his life, faith, and teaching is an inspiration to me, an example of a true Christian should always inspire us. It is not an either or proposition, the Pope does not say let Mary inspire you in lieu of Christ.



Ahh...the great debate.  Praying to Mary isn't the same as worshiping her or having an idol.  I guess this is going to be another fundamental difference between Protestants and Catholics.  As a Protestant, sure we can draw inspiration from others...you mention Calvin...I'd continue on with the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11.  But I think that the huge difference is that even though we view these as inspirations we don't pray to them (I'd add that praying to something is a form of worship).  

Yes....we ask others to pray for us, but we don't pray to our friends that they'll intercede on behalf of us, we ask them to in humanly terms.  Some might not see a difference, but as you know, I do.


----------



## Banjo

> Find a time when she sinned in the bible, you can not.



The exaltation of Mary began with the Council of Ephesus in 430 A.D.  That is where the term "Mother of God" was coined...  I am not sure why this was even incorporated into the Church, unless it was the influence of Goddess worship...somehow... I just can't see where it came from, because it certainly wasn't promoted in the Bible.

Mary was a sinner who needed the blood of Christ to atone for her sins.  

Have you ever read Mary's Song?  If she was sinless she would not need a Savior, why then does her spirit rejoice over the fact that she has one?

Luke 1:46-47

"My soul magnifies the Lord, and MY SPIRIT HAS REJOICED IN GOD MY SAVIOR.  For He has regarded the LOWLY state of HIS MAIDSERVANT; for behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed...."




> The example of a person’s life can inspire others, St. Paul has inspired many people’s lives, Calvin and his faith is an inspiration to you, St. Dominic and his life, faith, and teaching is an inspiration to me, an example of a true Christian should always inspire us.



I think it is a little more than that.  I don't venerate Calvin, nor do I pray to him, bow down to or kiss any statues of him.


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> It matters if part of them is left out.  Is the second commandment (as the Hebrew texts dictate)  listed in the RC catechism or not?



You are mistaken here. The Hebrew text does not list the commandments in a numerical sequence. So the Hebrew text would not dictate how we separated or combined the commandments. It is only through tradition that we have a numerical sequence attributed to the commandments. 



Banjo said:


> Can you find these words in the RC catechism as part of the Ten Commandments:
> 
> 
> "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them."



Yes start at 2051



Banjo said:


> If those words are not present and taught within the RC church as part of the commandments (no matter how you number them), I am asking who decided to leave them out and why.



Irrelevant


----------



## PJason

rjcruiser said:


> Ahh...the great debate.  Praying to Mary isn't the same as worshiping her or having an idol.  I guess this is going to be another fundamental difference between Protestants and Catholics.  As a Protestant, sure we can draw inspiration from others...you mention Calvin...I'd continue on with the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11.  But I think that the huge difference is that even though we view these as inspirations we don't pray to them (I'd add that praying to something is a form of worship).
> 
> Yes....we ask others to pray for us, but we don't pray to our friends that they'll intercede on behalf of us, we ask them to in humanly terms.  Some might not see a difference, but as you know, I do.



You ever read Shakespeare, pray tell do you think it was Shakespeare’s intent was to have the characters worship each other. 

Asking someone to pray for you is asking for someone to intercede for you. They are acting on your behalf that is what it means to intercede. 



Banjo said:


> The exaltation of Mary began with the Council of Ephesus in 430 A.D.  That is where the term "Mother of God" was coined...  I am not sure why this was even incorporated into the Church, unless it was the influence of Goddess worship...somehow... I just can't see where it came from, because it certainly wasn't promoted in the Bible.



Really she was never called the Mother of God or the Mother of the Lord in the Bible?

Did she not give birth to Christ?
Is Christ not God?
Was He not God in her womb?
Was He not of her flesh?

Look up Nestorianism and maybe the Protoevangelium of James



Banjo said:


> Mary was a sinner who needed the blood of Christ to atone for her sins.
> 
> Have you ever read Mary's Song?  If she was sinless she would not need a Savior, why then does her spirit rejoice over the fact that she has one?
> 
> Luke 1:46-47
> 
> "My soul magnifies the Lord, and MY SPIRIT HAS REJOICED IN GOD MY SAVIOR.  For He has regarded the LOWLY state of HIS MAIDSERVANT; for behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed...."



You do not seem to call her blessed. 

Yes, a Savior 

I walk into my lab and find a man on the floor with a beaker of poison in his hand; I give him an antidote and save his life. I am his savior, I have saved his life. You walk in and reach for the same beaker; just before you drink it I stop you. Have I saved your life? Should I let you drink to poison first, and then given the antidote? Is that the only way I could have saved you?




Banjo said:


> I think it is a little more than that.  I don't venerate Calvin, nor do I pray to him, bow down to or kiss any statues of him.



Really you do not honor or respect Calvin. Well neither do I.


----------



## rjcruiser

PJason said:


> You ever read Shakespeare, pray tell do you think it was Shakespeare’s intent was to have the characters worship each other.


Not sure where you're going with this...can you expand on the whole Shakespeare thing?  (I guess with my 2nd grade education, I never got to Brit Lit in 10th grade)



			
				PJason said:
			
		

> Asking someone to pray for you is asking for someone to intercede for you. They are acting on your behalf that is what it means to intercede.


I guess the difference is that you are praying to Mary that she'll intercede.  I don't pray to DB BB that he'll intercede on my behalf.  If I prayed to DB, I'd consider that worship.



			
				PJason said:
			
		

> Really you do not honor or respect Calvin. Well neither do I.



Respect and honor are much much different than praying to someone or something.  Change that to Praying to Calvin and we'd have a mutual agreement.


----------



## Banjo

Yes, Mary was blessed.  All sinners are who have had their sins forgiven and the blessings of eternal life are.  I just don't count Mary more holy than any other human...and neither does God's Word....EVER.  There is no command in Scripture that venerates Mary...NONE.  

The Roman Catholic church has perverted Mary's role on this earth.

The have ascribed to her the place belonging to Christ.

According to "The Glories of Mary"

She is called a mediatress...even though the Bible plainly teaches there is only ONE mediator (I Tim. 2:5).

She is called the gate of heaven "because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her."  Yet the Bible says Christ is the door (John 10:1, 7,9).

All power has been given to Mary even though the Bible plainly teaches all authority has been given to Christ (Matt. 28:18).

Here is an example of a prayer found in the Raccolta.  It has been indulged by several popes and is accepted as authoritative:

Hail, Queen, Mother of Mercy, our Life.  Sweetness, and Hope, all Hail!  To thee we cry, banished sons of Eve; to thee we sigh, groaning and weeping in this vale of tears.  

We fly beneath thy shelter, O Mother of God, despise not our petitions in our necessity, and deliver us always from all perils, O glorious and Blessed Virgin.

Heart of Mary, Mother of God... Worthy of all the veneration of angels and men....In thee let the Holy Church find safe shelter; protect it and be its asylum, its tower, its strength.

Sweet heart of Mary, be my salvation.

Leave me not, My Mother, in my own hands, or I am lost; let me but cling to thee. Save me, my Hope; save me from he11.

When we have the assurance that Christ hears our prayers, why in the world wouldn't you go straight to Him?


----------



## PJason

rjcruiser said:


> Not sure where you're going with this...can you expand on the whole Shakespeare thing?  (I guess with my 2nd grade education, I never got to Brit Lit in 10th grade)



A good dictionary will help. Maybe do a word search in Shakespeare’s works, see how many times he used the word pray, and what the intent of the word was.




rjcruiser said:


> I guess the difference is that you are praying to Mary that she'll intercede.  I don't pray to DB BB that he'll intercede on my behalf.  If I prayed to DB, I'd consider that worship.



Really, because I think St. Paul makes mention of interceding, I think he even makes a request that others pray for him? A “humble request” that is.





rjcruiser said:


> Respect and honor are much much different than praying to someone or something.  Change that to Praying to Calvin and we'd have a mutual agreement.



Maybe I should put it this way I do not venerate Calvin either, same difference, different way of saying it.


----------



## Mako22

dawg2 said:


> YES they did



No they didn't!


----------



## gordon 2

Banjo said:


> This isn't about female vs. male...
> 
> This is more about defending what we believe.



Since when with Jesus are we defensive about His beliefs? I did not mean it as female vs. male...but about top dogs, and one eyeballed cats.


----------



## dawg2

Woodsman69 said:


> No they didn't!



YES they did


----------



## Mako22

dawg2 said:


> YES they did



No they didn't.


----------



## Branchminnow

PWalls said:


> Just to stir the pot a little.
> 
> I was told by a Baptist preacher one day that ex-Catholics make the best Baptists.



I VE ALWAYS SAID THAT


----------



## whitworth

*Heck, there was a Catholic Bible*

before there were any protestants.


----------



## rjcruiser

habersham hammer said:


> One more thing - Baptists are not Protestants





umm...again, with my 2nd grade education, I need some help on this one.


----------



## Mako22

habersham hammer said:


> One more thing - Baptists are not Protestants



I agree we are not protestants never have been and never will be.


----------



## Banjo

> I agree we are not protestants never have been and never will be.



What are they?


----------



## gordon 2

habersham hammer said:


> One more thing - Baptists are not Protestants



And the US is not a democracy...

No, but seriously Baptists on mainland Europe were "commune type christians" something akin to Menonite communities today, but were wiped out by persecution, war etc...

The Baptist that we know of today, who landed ashore way back when Georgia was a penal colony,  in North America are a latter English formation and do not have the same backgroung history as the former continental ones.

So hh, can I ask what accounts do you have that the "british" baptish were not protestants? Or perhaps I'm in way left field on this one???


If some find that this is off topic, I am not ashamed, this tread is an organic off topic one of this and thats to begin with.


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> She is called a mediatress...even though the Bible plainly teaches there is only ONE mediator (I Tim. 2:5).


The term is Mediatrix 




> PART ONE
> THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
> SECTION TWO
> THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
> CHAPTER THREE
> I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
> ARTICLE 9
> "I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"
> Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church
> 963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer.... She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."500 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."501
> I. MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH
> Wholly united with her Son . . .
> 964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";502 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:
> Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."503
> 965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."504 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."505
> . . . also in her Assumption
> 966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:
> In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.507
> . . . she is our Mother in the order of grace
> 967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)508 of the Church.
> 968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."509
> 969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510
> 970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."512
> II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN
> 971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515
> III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH
> 972 After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints,"516 the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.
> In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.517
> IN BRIEF
> 973 By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.
> 974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.
> 975 "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, CPG # 15).
> ________________________________________
> 500 LG 53; cf. St. Augustine, De virg. 6: PL 40,399.
> 501 Paul VI, Discourse, November 21,1964.
> 502 LG 57.
> 503 LG 58; cf. Jn 19:26-27.
> 504 LG 69.
> 505 LG 59.
> 506 LG 59; cf. Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus (1950): DS 3903; cf. Rev 19:16.
> 507 Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition, August 15th.
> 508 LG 53; 63.
> 509 LG 61.
> 510 LG 62.
> 511 LG 60.
> 512 LG 62.
> 513 Lk 1:48; Paul VI, MC 56.
> 514 LG 66.
> 515 Cf. Paul VI, MC 42; SC 103.
> 516 LG 69.
> 517 LG 68; Cf. 2 Pet 3 10.


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> Yes, Mary was blessed.  All sinners are who have had their sins forgiven and the blessings of eternal life are.  I just don't count Mary more holy than any other human...and neither does God's Word....EVER.  There is no command in Scripture that venerates Mary...NONE.



Hail Mary Full of Grace. Do we need a definition of the word full?





Banjo said:


> The Roman Catholic church has perverted Mary's role on this earth.



I thought you said the Catholic Church was started under Constantine in 434 AD? What about the evidence of Mary being venerated as early as the 1st century? 




Banjo said:


> The have ascribed to her the place belonging to Christ.



If you could please show anywhere in the Catechism where it says Mary takes the place of Jesus or is greater then Jesus?


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> Hail, Queen, Mother of Mercy, our Life.  Sweetness, and Hope, all Hail!  To thee we cry, banished sons of Eve; to thee we sigh, groaning and weeping in this vale of tears.
> 
> We fly beneath thy shelter, O Mother of God, despise not our petitions in our necessity, and deliver us always from all perils, O glorious and Blessed Virgin.
> 
> Heart of Mary, Mother of God... Worthy of all the veneration of angels and men....In thee let the Holy Church find safe shelter; protect it and be its asylum, its tower, its strength.
> 
> Sweet heart of Mary, be my salvation.
> 
> Leave me not, My Mother, in my own hands, or I am lost; let me but cling to thee. Save me, my Hope; save me from he11.



I am not sure if the EIPS wants you to believe this is all one prayer or not. If they do then they are wrong, it is a mishmash of five different prayers. Maybe next time you should leave the quotes around them. Anyway I see nothing wrong with in the proper context. If you like I can go through each and post the prayer along with a commit.


----------



## farmasis

rjcruiser said:


> umm...again, with my 2nd grade education, I need some help on this one.


 

me too......


----------



## dawg2

Woodsman69 said:


> No they didn't.



Yes they did


----------



## dawg2

habersham hammer said:


> One more thing - Baptists are not Protestants





Woodsman69 said:


> I agree we are not protestants never have been and never will be.





rjcruiser said:


> umm...again, with my 2nd grade education, I need some help on this one.





Banjo said:


> What are they?



PROTESTANTS


----------



## farmasis

dawg2 said:


> Yes they did


 
*He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved*; but he that believeth not shall be d a m n ed-. (Mark 16:15-16)<SUP><FOINT size="2" face="arial">2 </SUP>

…when they [3,000 Judahites] heard this [the gospel and the fact that they were responsible for the death of Yeshua], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, *Repent*,* and be baptized every one of you in the name of Yeshua *[the] *Christ for the remission of sins*,* and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost*.… *Then they that gladly received his word were baptized*: *and the same day there were added unto them *[the early church comprised of the apostles]* about three thousand souls*. (Acts 2:37-41) 
…now [Saul of Tarsus] why tarriest thou? *Arise*,* and be baptized*,* and wash away thy sins*,* calling on the name of the Lord*. (Acts 22:16) 
Know ye not [Christians of Rome], that *so many of us as were baptized into Yeshua* [the] *Christ were baptized into his death*? Therefore we are *buried with him by baptism* into death: that like as Christ was *raised up* from the dead by the glory of the Father, even *so we also should walk in newness of life*. (Romans 6:3-4) 
…*by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body* … *and have been all made to drink into one Spirit*. (1 Corinthians 12:13) 
…ye [Christians of Galatia] are all the children of God by faith in [the] Christ Yeshua. *For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ*. (Galatians 3:26-27) …God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein … eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even* baptism doth also now save us *(… *the answer of a good conscience toward God*,) by the resurrection of Yeshua [the] Christ. (1 Peter 3:20-21) 

The apostles were baptists, not Catholic.


----------



## dawg2

farmasis said:


> ...The apostles were baptists, not Catholic.



Quaker


----------



## Mako22

dawg2 said:


> Yes they did



No they didn't.


----------



## dawg2

Woodsman69 said:


> No they didn't.



Yes they did


----------



## Rich Kaminski

*Catholics don't have to read the bible*

They are Gods second chosen people (right behind the Jews). All these other religions that have cropped up over the years are nothing more than the extrapolation of the religions founding fathers ego.
Face it whoever founded one of these new religions was not a physically powerful man or he would have satisfied his ego with military might. But no, instead the person was an intellect, who decoded human nature and convinced weaker people (natural followers who are dull normals) by speaking with them (remember most of them do not have friends, just acquaintances). If you don't believe me, look up how religions were started. There is plenty of theory and some sound facts.
Now don't get me wrong, I do believe in God. And I believe that most religions all worship the same one God. They just worsip God in different ways. Remember the Old Testament depicted God as being mean and a punisher and the New Testament says he is a kind and forgiving God. Well which is it? And who said it was OK to change the word of the Bible??? Sounds more like politics than religion, right!
The truth is that Religion is Politics, its all just another attempt to control the masses.


----------



## dawg2

Rich Kaminski said:


> They are Gods second chosen people (right behind the Jews). All these other religions that have cropped up over the years are nothing more than the extrapolation of the religions founding fathers ego.
> Face it whoever founded one of these new religions was not a physically powerful man or he would have satisfied his ego with military might. But no, instead the person was an intellect, who decoded human nature and convinced weaker people (natural followers who are dull normals) by speaking with them (remember most of them do not have friends, just acquaintances). If you don't believe me, look up how religions were started. There is plenty of theory and some sound facts.
> Now don't get me wrong, I do believe in God. And I believe that most religions all worship the same one God. They just worsip God in different ways. Remember the Old Testament depicted God as being mean and a punisher and the New Testament says he is a kind and forgiving God. Well which is it? And who said it was OK to change the word of the Bible??? Sounds more like politics than religion, right!
> The truth is that Religion is Politics, its all just another attempt to control the masses.


op2:


----------



## farmasis

Rich Kaminski said:


> They are Gods second chosen people (right behind the Jews).


 
Not exclusive of Catholics, but all believers.



> Face it whoever founded one of these new religions was not a physically powerful man or he would have satisfied his ego with military might. But no, instead the person was an intellect, who decoded human nature and convinced weaker people (natural followers who are dull normals) by speaking with them


 
Sounds a lot like Christ.



> Remember the Old Testament depicted God as being mean and a punisher and the New Testament says he is a kind and forgiving God. Well which is it? And who said it was OK to change the word of the Bible??? Sounds more like politics than religion, right!


 
I don't remember God changing between the Old and New Testament. I don't think God is mean, but just. He still is, and he has much wrath that will be unleashed and it will be just. He didn't change. He has always made provision for man for forgiveness and punished those who do not.



> The truth is that Religion is Politics, its all just another attempt to control the masses.


 
I don't feel controlled, but free. And free indeed.


----------



## pfharris1965

*...*



dawg2 said:


> Yes they did


 
...sorry and I will say a thousand Hail Mary's for it too... 

Dawg2, dawg2, dawg2...son are ya ever gonna learn...?...Oh and BTW, ifn the way you "argue" a point here is any sign of things to come then stay out of my primary area at the club. 

You are in the South boy...they ain't but one way...repent ye heathen...

See ya next weekend.


----------



## Big7

Woodsman69 said:


> If they really read the Bible then they would not be Catholics for long.



Carters93 - If you would read the "Real" Bible, you
would not be whatever you are for very long 

Try the one with ALL 73 books - then you will be on the right track.


----------



## Big7

dawg2 said:


> Yes they did



Yes - We did. Rest of you, Keep on , I'll show you.


----------



## gordon 2

Rich Kaminski said:


> They are Gods second chosen people (right behind the Jews). All these other religions that have cropped up over the years are nothing more than the extrapolation of the religions founding fathers ego.
> Face it whoever founded one of these new religions was not a physically powerful man or he would have satisfied his ego with military might. But no, instead the person was an intellect, who decoded human nature and convinced weaker people (natural followers who are dull normals) by speaking with them (remember most of them do not have friends, just acquaintances). If you don't believe me, look up how religions were started. There is plenty of theory and some sound facts.
> Now don't get me wrong, I do believe in God. And I believe that most religions all worship the same one God. They just worsip God in different ways. Remember the Old Testament depicted God as being mean and a punisher and the New Testament says he is a kind and forgiving God. Well which is it? And who said it was OK to change the word of the Bible??? Sounds more like politics than religion, right!
> The truth is that Religion is Politics, its all just another attempt to control the masses.




There is a difference between religious denominations, (even the buddist have sects) and the run of the mill Communiste idiology.


Karl Marx, a brit, a brittish intectual, from England! when he said religion was the opium of the people was looking at the landscape  of umpteen different english christian sects intermeshed with the mall of british class history and the emergence of the capitialist economy and worker unions on a fuedal system. ( Not to mention that the physical landsape of a prestine winter snow slowly blackened, dulled by coal dust.)

He just continued the british way of religious protest into the political arena. In other words he was a corgy spiritually and a cow herder politically.

The treat of christian religion is not so much that it controls the masses, but that it gets the individual to think that he is "freed" from the control of the  opression of the many and therefore strikes out on his own politically, spiritually, intellectually, scientifically, etc....for his own happiness.

Now had Marx been a Tibetan Boudist.!


"All major religious traditions carry basically the same message, that is love, compassion and forgiveness ... the important thing is they should be part of our daily lives.” 
 Dalai Lama quote

In scandinavian countries, 19th century, for example, I believe that there is consensus that the immergence of differing christian denominations were a contributing factor in the developement of their democratic system, simply because of the differing tensions and interests of the people within. Religion was not politics per say, but its interests forced the political landscape to adapt to the new and differing interests of the people. The lands of Kings and clans because the great peace promoting, socialist nations we know today.


----------



## reylamb

PJason said:


> Find a time when she sinned in the bible, you can not.


For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.......
unless of course all does not mean all.......


----------



## dawg2

reylamb said:


> For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.......
> unless of course all does not mean all.......



So out of EVERY SINGLE HUMAN on the planet, why on earth was SHE chosen?  I am sure God didn't shake the magic 8 Ball and see whose name poppped up...makes ya wonder...why her? 

Why then?  Why not a year earlier, a year later, why HER?


----------



## PJason

reylamb said:


> For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.......
> unless of course all does not mean all.......



St. Paul also said the all men die.

I can think of at least one man from the Bible who did not die.


----------



## gtparts

dawg2 said:


> So out of EVERY SINGLE HUMAN on the planet, why on earth was SHE chosen?  I am sure God didn't shake the magic 8 Ball and see whose name poppped up...makes ya wonder...why her?
> 
> Why then?  Why not a year earlier, a year later, why HER?



Picked a name at random out of the virgin phonebook?


----------



## Double Barrel BB

Luke 1:

28. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
I think that settles it...

"blessed art thou among women" and "for thou hast found favour with God"

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB

PJason said:


> St. Paul also said the all men die.
> 
> I can think of at least one man from the Bible who did not die.


 
Elijah? Enoch?

DB BB


----------



## dawg2

gtparts said:


> Picked a name at random out of the virgin phonebook?



You ain't right boy


----------



## reylamb

dawg2 said:


> So out of EVERY SINGLE HUMAN on the planet, why on earth was SHE chosen?  I am sure God didn't shake the magic 8 Ball and see whose name poppped up...makes ya wonder...why her?
> 
> Why then?  Why not a year earlier, a year later, why HER?


I don't pretend to know the mind of God, nor his reasoning.  All is all though, fairly simple.


----------



## dawg2

Double Barrel BB said:


> Elijah? Enoch?
> 
> DB BB



Really?  I never met them


----------



## Double Barrel BB

dawg2 said:


> Really? I never met them


 

Those are the only 2 that I know of that did not die...

DB BB


----------



## gordon 2

Why her? Because she was a super charismatic and there is something Noahesque about her.

Someday, I'm gona get some quotes of a conversation that is attributed to her in scripture. And you will see she was no ordinary soccer mom.


----------



## justme

I will clear this up for you...

YES - Catholics do read the bible.


----------



## rjcruiser

gordon 2 said:


> And you will see she was no ordinary soccer mom.



Don't you mean Hockey mom


----------



## gordon 2

justme said:


> I will clear this up for you...
> 
> YES - Catholics do read the bible.



Cool! But I'm sure some meant do they read it "all" the time.

Justme, what is this? "PFHarris1965's wife"? Did PF trade up to a new model of Mrs. Harris?  Or was the 1965 model the last one he got?What?


----------



## gtparts

dawg2 said:


> You ain't right boy



Guess that makes me left or wrong, which reminds me of an ole saying.

"Two wrongs don't make a right, BUT three lefts do!"





Peace.


----------



## gordon 2

rjcruiser said:


> Don't you mean Hockey mom



No, cause I never seen a likeness of my Lord with half his teeth knocked out.


----------



## gtparts

gordon 2 said:


> Cool! But I'm sure some meant do they read it "all" the time.
> 
> Justme, what is this? "PFHarris1965's wife"? Did PF trade up to a new model of Mrs. Harris?  Or was the 1965 model the last one he got?What?



Gonna keep the '52' model I got. She's built for comfort.....,not for speed. 

Peace.


----------



## justme

gordon 2 said:


> Cool! But I'm sure some meant do they read it "all" the time.
> 
> Justme, what is this? "PFHarris1965's wife"? Did PF trade up to a new model of Mrs. Harris? Or was the 1965 model the last one he got?What?


 

The one and only.....That's Mrs. Harris to you...

PF is the 1965 model...


----------



## gordon 2

justme said:


> The one and only.....That's Mrs. Harris to you...
> 
> PF is the 1965 model...



Thank you Mrs Harris.


----------



## gtparts

Who is she, gordo? On 2nd thought, maybe trading in the ole '52' may not be a ........ Naw, forget it. Don't have the patience to train another one, not to mention the dental expenses.


----------



## Mako22

Big7 said:


> Carters93 - If you would read the "Real" Bible, you
> would not be whatever you are for very long
> 
> Try the one with ALL 73 books - then you will be on the right track.



Who is Carters93???


----------



## Mako22

dawg2 said:


> Yes they did



No they didn't!


----------



## reylamb

PJason said:


> St. Paul also said the all men die.
> 
> I can think of at least one man from the Bible who did not die.



And?

So there are 2 specific examples of men that did not die.  There is only 1 specific example cited anywhere in the Bible of anyone being sinless, and it was not Mary.


----------



## PJason

reylamb said:


> And?
> 
> So there are 2 specific examples of men that did not die.  There is only 1 specific example cited anywhere in the Bible of anyone being sinless, and it was not Mary.



You asked if “all” meant “all”, based on the example I gave does “all” always mean “all”?


----------



## Banjo

It is difficult for Protestants to understand the deep love and reverence RC's have for Mary.  Here is a quote from "My Life in the Convent" written by Margaret Shepherd...

"No words can define to my readers the feeling of reverential love I had for the Virgin Mary.  As the humble suppliant kneels before her statue he thinks of her as the tender, compassionate mother of Jesus, the friend and mediatrix of sinners.  The thought of praying to Christ for any special grace without seeking the intercession of Mary never occurred to me."

Titles given to Mary by RC church:

Mother of God
Queen of the Apostles
Queen of Heaven
Queen of the Angels
The Door of Paradise
The Gate of Heaven
Our Life
Mother of Grace
Mother of Mercy

To a Protestant this is absurd...After all, where in the Bible is ANY of that taught?  However, to the average RC, Mary has the powers of a deity...how else could she attend to all those prayers offered up,  all the while attending her duties in heaven, conducting souls to heaven, and rescuing souls from purgatory...

This veneration of Mary should be enough to scandalize anyone who has ever read the Bible...

Pope Benedict IV (1914-1922) gave expression to the thought that Mary suffered with her suffering and dying Son, and that with Him she has redeemed the human race.  This pronouncement was also sanctioned by Pope Pius XI in 1923...


----------



## dawg2

Banjo said:


> ...To a Protestant this is absurd...



NO more absurd than creating a new church because someone doesn't like a what a preacher says.


----------



## reylamb

PJason said:


> You asked if “all” meant “all”, based on the example I gave does “all” always mean “all”?



Unless there is a specific example cited to the contrary, yes, all means all.  Since there is absolutely no evidence anywhere in the NT to the contrary, Mary is part of all.


----------



## Double Barrel BB

I saw this while I was down in Orlando earlier this year, and all this talk about Mary, made me recall the memory of seeing this...

http://www.maryqueenoftheuniverse.org/

DB BB


----------



## rjcruiser

Double Barrel BB said:


> I saw this while I was down in Orlando earlier this year, and all this talk about Mary, made me recall the memory of seeing this...
> 
> http://www.maryqueenoftheuniverse.org/
> 
> DB BB



Queen of the universe

And yet somehow, they still want someone to believe that praying to Mary is only asking her to intercede on one's behalf and not worship.

As wrong as it is, I might be able to be convinced that it started out as a simple prayer for intercession...but over the 1500 years of the Catholic church, it has definitely morphed into something more than just intercession.


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> It is difficult for Protestants to understand the deep love and reverence RC's have for Mary.  Here is a quote from "My Life in the Convent" written by Margaret Shepherd...
> 
> "No words can define to my readers the feeling of reverential love I had for the Virgin Mary.  As the humble suppliant kneels before her statue he thinks of her as the tender, compassionate mother of Jesus, the friend and mediatrix of sinners.  The thought of praying to Christ for any special grace without seeking the intercession of Mary never occurred to me."



So a quote from a ex-nun who was ill formed in her understanding of Church teachings is proof of what?



Banjo said:


> Titles given to Mary by RC church:
> 
> 
> Mother of God  (Christ is God, She is the Mother of Christ)
> Queen of the Apostles  (Christ is the King of the Apostles, Christ is a Davidic King, Mary would therefore be His Queen)
> Queen of Heaven  (Christ is the King of Heaven, Christ is a Davidic King, Mary would therefore be His Queen)
> Queen of the Angels  (Christ is the King of Angels, Christ is a Davidic King, Mary would therefore be His Queen)
> The Door of Paradise  (Christ passed through Mary to us)
> The Gate of Heaven  (Christ passed through Mary to us)
> Our Life  (Christ is Our Life, She is the Mother of Christ)
> Mother of Grace  (Christ is Grace, She is the Mother of Christ)
> Mother of Mercy  (Christ is Mercy, She is the Mother of Christ)





Banjo said:


> To a Protestant this is absurd...After all, where in the Bible is ANY of that taught?



No to you this is absurd. Remember Protestants are not united, so to presume to speak for them all is absurd.



Banjo said:


> However, to the average RC, Mary has the powers of a deity...how else could she attend to all those prayers offered up,  all the while attending her duties in heaven, conducting souls to heaven, and rescuing souls from purgatory...



What do you know of the average Catholic? Are you one?  Maybe you should say “I assume that the average Catholic believes this” but please do not pretend to know something you are ignorant of. 





Banjo said:


> This veneration of Mary should be enough to scandalize anyone who has ever read the Bible...



Why would giving honor scandalize anyone?




Banjo said:


> Pope Benedict IV (1914-1922) gave expression to the thought that Mary suffered with her suffering and dying Son, and that with Him she has redeemed the human race.  This pronouncement was also sanctioned by Pope Pius XI in 1923...



Does Mr. Boettner give a cross reference to this pronouncement?

If your child died hung on a cross would you not suffer with them, would a sword not pierce your heart.

Col1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church: 25 Whereof I am made a minister according to the dispensation of God, which is given me towards you, that I may fulfill the word of God: 

1 Corinthians 12:26 And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it; or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it.


Romans 8:17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.


----------



## rjcruiser

PJason said:


> So a quote from a ex-nun who was ill formed in her understanding of Church teachings is proof of what?
> 
> What do you know of the average Catholic? Are you one?  Maybe you should say “I assume that the average Catholic believes this” but please do not pretend to know something you are ignorant of.



I find it interesting that anyone who questions Catholicism or is critical of it is per PJason "ignorant" and "doesn't understand."

What part of "Queen of the Universe" is hard to understand?  Even a 2nd grader can understand what that is


----------



## PJason

rjcruiser said:


> I find it interesting that anyone who questions Catholicism or is critical of it is per PJason "ignorant" and "doesn't understand."



And I do not find it surprising at all that you would take my comments out of context.

I was commenting on Banjo’s ability to know how the “average Catholic” understands the Churches teaching on Mary. 

Can you show me anywhere in my comments where I have presumed to know how the “average Protestant” understands the Protestant doctrine Sola Scriptura, Sola Fida, OSAS, or any number of other Protestant doctrines? 




rjcruiser said:


> What part of "Queen of the Universe" is hard to understand?



I never said it was hard to understand 

Who is the King of the Universe?

Is Christ a Davidic King?

Who was the Queen to the Davidic Kings?

Who then would be the Queen of the Universe?


----------



## rjcruiser

PJason said:


> And I do not find it surprising at all that you would take my comments out of context.
> 
> I was commenting on Banjo’s ability to know how the “average Catholic” understands the Churches teaching on Mary.
> 
> Can you show me anywhere in my comments where I have presumed to know how the “average Protestant” understands the Protestant doctrine Sola Scriptura, Sola Fida, OSAS, or any number of other Protestant doctrines?


Well, I can't recall anything about "average Protestants," but I do remember you presuming that I have the education of a 2nd grader along with a few other choice descriptions.




			
				PJason said:
			
		

> I never said it was hard to understand
> 
> Who is the King of the Universe?
> 
> Is Christ a Davidic King?
> 
> Who was the Queen to the Davidic Kings?
> 
> Who then would be the Queen of the Universe?



Okay..Let's try this.

Jesus Christ is King of the Universe.

Yes, Christ is a Davidic King...as shown in Matthew 1.

Um, I don't think that Christ ever had a queen.  Usually the queen is the wife of the King.

So I would say, there is no queen of the universe...only a King of the Universe.

There is only one throne in Heaven...not two.  There is only one God...not two.  There is only One that we need to pray to, and it isn't Mary or any of the disciples or apostle.


----------



## PJason

rjcruiser said:


> Well, I can't recall anything about "average Protestants," but I do remember you presuming that I have the education of a 2nd grader along with a few other choice descriptions.



I am pretty sure I said 4th grade and that was my only choice description, but why split hairs.



You start very well…


rjcruiser said:


> Okay..Let's try this.
> 
> Jesus Christ is King of the Universe.
> 
> Yes, Christ is a Davidic King...as shown in Matthew 1.



You did well up to here…



rjcruiser said:


> Um, I don't think that Christ ever had a queen.



Are you sure about that…



rjcruiser said:


> Usually the queen is the wife of the King.



I would reread Kings



rjcruiser said:


> So I would say, there is no queen of the universe...only a King of the Universe.



But a Davidic King has a Queen



rjcruiser said:


> There is only one throne in Heaven...not two.



You sure…



rjcruiser said:


> There is only one God...not two.



Here we do agree…



rjcruiser said:


> There is only One that we need to pray to, and it isn't Mary or any of the disciples or apostle.



Again I would say it depends on how you understand pray.


----------



## redwards

PJason said:


> I am pretty sure I said 4th grade and that was my only choice description, but why split hairs.
> 
> 
> 
> You start very well…
> 
> 
> You did well up to here…
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure about that…
> 
> 
> 
> I would reread Kings
> 
> 
> 
> But a Davidic King has a Queen
> 
> 
> 
> You sure…
> 
> 
> 
> Here we do agree…
> 
> 
> 
> Again I would say it depends on how you understand pray.


PJason,
Since, according to you, one's understanding of prayer apparently differs from person to person, why not provide a sentence by sentence explanation of this decree I have quoted below? 
It might shed some light on the subject currently at hand in this thread (our understanding of prayer, that is). 

I know I've been waiting patiently quite a while now for an explanation , all to no avail it seems.

Excuse me dawg2, don't mean to derail the main topic of your thread!




> APOSTOLIC PENITENTIARY DECREE
> 
> according to which is granted a daily Plenary Indulgence
> on the 150th Anniversary of the Apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary at Lourdes
> 
> 
> On the occasion of the 150th Anniversary of the Apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the Grotto of Massabielle near Lourdes, a daily Plenary Indulgence is granted to the Christian faithful who, from 8 December 2007 until 8 December 2008, devoutly and in accordance with the established conditions, visit the Grotto of Massabielle, as well as those who, from 2-11 February 2008, visit a blessed image of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Lourdes solemnly displayed for public veneration in any church, oratory, grotto or suitable place.
> 
> God's omnipotence and infinite love have joined together in a marvellous bond the role of Mary, Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ and hence, Mother of his Mystical Body the Church, and the salvific work of the Church herself: Blessed Abbot Guerric thus connects the protection sought by the Christian faithful from Mother Mary with the Catholic Church's universal ministry of salvation: "The Blessed Mother of Christ, insofar as she sees herself the mother of Christians by way of mystery, also shows herself to be a mother by her solicitude and tender affection for them.... Consider if her children, prompted by a certain spontaneous sense of faith, do not also acknowledge her as mother as they find refuge, before all else, at the invocation of her name in every trial and danger just like children in the arms of their mother" (Sermo I, In Assumptione B. Mariae Virg.).
> 
> Similarly, the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium of the Second Vatican Council highlights what we might call the "joint" mission of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary and the Catholic Church: "For Mary, who since her entry into salvation history unites in herself and re-echoes the greatest teachings of the faith as she is proclaimed and venerated, calls the faithful to her Son and his sacrifice and to the love of the Father. Seeking after the glory of Christ, the Church becomes more like her exalted Type, and continually progresses in faith, hope and charity, seeking and doing the will of God in all things" (n. 65).
> 
> The history of the Church and the marvellous signs of Marian devotion continually and clearly confirm the ways of Divine Providence and foster devotion among the faithful.
> 
> A glance over the nearly 150 years since Mary Most Holy, revealing herself to little Bernadette Soubirous as the Immaculate Conception, wanted a shrine, a treasury of grace, to be built and maintained in the place called Massabielle, in the city of Lourdes, brings to mind the countless number of signs by which the supernatural life of souls and even the health of bodies have benefited much from the goodness of Almighty God. This plan of Divine Providence, accompanied by the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, clearly demonstrates that the integral end of man is the good of the whole human person, both here on earth and especially in eternal salvation.
> 
> Since the establishment of the Shrine at Lourdes, the Christian faithful have understood that there the Blessed Virgin Mary, through the ministry of the Catholic Church, desires to provide most lovingly for the complete health of men and women.
> 
> For as they venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary in the place "touched by her feet", they refresh themselves with the sacraments, make firm resolutions to lead more perfect Christian lives, perceive more clearly the meaning of the Church and experience the solid reasons for all these things: the very connection of these remarkable events over time has clearly attested to the joint action of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Church: indeed, the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was defined in 1854, and in 1858, Mary Most Holy appeared to the devout young girl Bernadette Soubirous with ineffable motherly sweetness, uttering the words of the dogmatic definition: "I am the Immaculate Conception".
> 
> In order to allow the fruits of renewed holiness to grow from this blessed commemoration, the Supreme Pontiff Benedict XVI has generously decreed that the gift of a Plenary Indulgence be granted according to the following conditions:
> 
> Each and every member of the Christian faithful who, truly repentant, is purified through sacramental confession, restored through the Most Holy Eucharist and offers prayers for the intentions of the Supreme Pontiff, will be able to gain a Plenary Indulgence daily, which may also be applied, by way of suffrage, to the souls of the faithful in Purgatory:
> 
> A) If, during the year running from 8 December 2007 until the end of 8 December 2008, they devoutly visit the following places, preferably in this order - 1) the parish baptismal font used for the Baptism of Bernadette; 2) the house of the Soubirous family called the "cachot"; 3) the Grotto of Massabielle; 4) the chapel of the hospice where Bernadette made her First Communion - and pause to reflect for an appropriate length of time at each of these Jubilee sites, concluding with the Lord's Prayer, some legitimate form of the Profession of Faith, and the Jubilee prayer or some other Marian invocation.
> 
> B) If, from the Feast of the Presentation of our Lord on 2 February 2008 until the end of the Memorial of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Lourdes on 11 February 2008, which is also the 150th Anniversary of the Apparition, they devoutly visit a blessed image of the Holy Virgin Mary of Lourdes in any church, chapel, grotto or other suitable place in which it is solemnly displayed, and in the presence of that image perform some pious act of Marian devotion, or at least pause to reflect for an appropriate length of time, concluding with the Lord's Prayer, some legitimate form of the Profession of Faith, and the Jubilee prayer or some other Marian invocation.
> 
> C) The elderly, sick, and all those unable to leave home for a just cause, if they consciously reject all sin and have the intention to fulfil the above-mentioned conditions as soon as possible, are likewise able to obtain - at home or wherever they may be - a Plenary Indulgence, if, between the days of 2 and 11 February 2008, they complete a "spiritual visit" (to the aforementioned places) in the desire of their heart, recite the prayers indicated above, and trustingly offer the pains and discomforts of their own lives to God through Mary.
> 
> In order that the Christian faithful may partake more readily of these heavenly gifts, priests who have received approval to hear confessions by the competent ecclesiastical authorities should welcome them with a willing and generous spirit and solemnly lead the recitation of public prayers to the Immaculate Virgin Mother of God.
> 
> Notwithstanding anything to the contrary.
> 
> Given in Rome, at the Offices of the Apostolic Penitentiary, 21 November 2007, on the Feast of the Presentation of the Blessed Virgin Mary
> 
> Cardinal James Francis Stafford
> Major Penitentiary
> 
> Gianfranco Girotti, O.F.M. Conv.
> Titular Bishop of Meta, Regent


----------



## PJason

redwards said:


> PJason, Since, according to you, one's understanding of prayer apparently differs from person to person,



I did not say it differs from person to person. The fact is the word pray has more then one meaning.




redwards said:


> why not provide a sentence by sentence explanation of this decree I have quoted below?



Because there is not one needed. 



redwards said:


> I know I've been waiting patiently quite a while now for an explanation , all to no avail it seems.



You know Ralph I thought I sent you that answer a while back. It turns out I forgot, you ever forget something, it happens to us all. If you look in your inbox you will find your PM answered, sorry for the dely.


----------



## Banjo

> I was commenting on Banjo’s ability to know how the “average Catholic” understands the Churches teaching on Mary.



I come from a long line of Catholics....

My mother still has her Grandmother's rosary beads in her jewelry drawer and has been known to "light a candle or two for her."

dawg and Big7....is this a shocker??


----------



## justme

Banjo said:


> I come from a long line of Catholics....
> 
> My mother still has her Grandmother's rosary beads in her jewelry drawer.


 
As I do also...  I have my grandmother's rosary beads on my nightstand... I carried them the day I was married ... and I say the rosary everynight....


----------



## Banjo

The only reference in the Bible to the "queen of heaven" is found in Jeremiah.  It references a pagan goddess of fertility.


----------



## Banjo

The Blessed Virgin Mary is to be called Queen not only on account of her divine motherhood but also because by the will of God she had a great part in the work of our salvation. . . . In this work of redemption the blessed Virgin Mary was closely associated with her Christ. . . . Just as Christ, because he redeemed us, is by a special title our King and Lord, so too is Blessed Mary, our Queen and our Mistress, because of the unique way in which she co-operated in our redemption. She provided her very substance for his body, she offered him willingly for us, and she took a unique part in our salvation by desiring it, praying for it, and so obtaining it. . . . - - Ad Coeli Reginam

She it was who, immune from all sin, personal or inherited, and ever more closely united with her Son, offered him on Golgotha to the Eternal Father together with the holocaust of her maternal rights and motherly love. . . . - - Mystici Corporis

Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind. - - Inter Sodalicia

. . . it was on Calvary that Mary's suffering, beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world. - - Salvifici Doloris


These teachings are not found in the Bible.  Christ offered HIMSELF up as a sacrifice.  Mary had nothing to do with that.  She was blessed because she was the vessel God used to bring Christ into the world.  This in no way makes her a mediator, co-redeemer, or Queen of the Universe.


----------



## dawg2

Banjo said:


> I come from a long line of Catholics....
> 
> My mother still has her Grandmother's rosary beads in her jewelry drawer and has been known to "light a candle or two for her."
> 
> dawg and Big7....is this a shocker??



Actually, No.  Most people that leave something like an ex-spouse or job, generally are not known to speak highly of what they leave


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> I come from a long line of Catholics....
> 
> My mother still has her Grandmother's rosary beads in her jewelry drawer and has been known to "light a candle or two for her."
> 
> dawg and Big7....is this a shocker??



I come from a long line of cobblers, I still have a couple of my Great Grandfather's tools, and I could not fix a shoe to save my life. 

It does not shock me at all.


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> The Blessed Virgin Mary is to be called Queen not only on account of her divine motherhood but also because by the will of God she had a great part in the work of our salvation
> . . . . In this work of redemption the blessed Virgin Mary was closely associated with her Christ. . . . Just as Christ, because he redeemed us, is by a special title our King and Lord, so too is Blessed Mary, our Queen and our Mistress, because of the unique way in which she co-operated in our redemption.  She provided her very substance for his body, she offered him willingly for us, and she took a unique part in our salvation by desiring it, praying for it, and so obtaining it. . . . - - Ad Coeli Reginam She it was who, immune from all sin , personal or inherited, and ever more closely united with her Son,
> offered him on Golgotha to the Eternal Father together with the holocaust of her maternal rights and motherly love. . . . - - Mystici Corporis Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind. - - Inter Sodalicia . . . it was on Calvary that Mary's suffering, beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world. - - Salvifici Doloris
> These teachings are not found in the Bible. Christ offered HIMSELF up as a sacrifice. Mary had nothing to do with that. She was blessed because she was the vessel God used to bring Christ into the world. This in no way makes her a mediator, co-redeemer, or Queen of the Universe.



She did have a part in our salvation she gave birth to Our Savior, being a mother I would think you would understand the importance of a mother in a child’s life. She co-operated by being the first to say, yes. She co-operated with the work of her Son. She prayed for all of our salvation, and through her Son obtained it. Christ heard His mother’s pleas and was obedient to her; she in turn was obedient to her Savoir by telling the servants to do whatever He tells you. Knowing that a sword would pierce her heart she followed her Son to Calvary and watched Him die. What mother could watch their child die not suffer with them? What is not found in the Bible? Are we not supposed to say yes to God call? Are we not to co-operate in God’s plan, even if it may mean suffering for us? What other disciple was more obedient to Christ then His own mother?


----------



## dawg2

PJason said:


> I come from a long line of cobblers, I still have a couple of my Great Grandfather's tools, and I could not fix a shoe to save my life.
> 
> It does not shock me at all.



What's a cobbler?


----------



## PJason

dawg2 said:


> What's a cobbler?



You know blueberry, blackberry, peach


a cobbler


----------



## PJason

PJason said:


> You know blueberry, blackberry, peach
> 
> 
> a cobbler



Not as good as pudding but we have seen enough of Barry and Levon. 



























OR HAVE WE??????????????????????????????????


----------



## dawg2

PJason said:


> Not as good as pudding but we have seen enough of Barry and Levon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OR HAVE WE??????????????????????????????????



No pudding!


----------



## PWalls

PJason said:


> You know blueberry, blackberry, peach
> 
> 
> a cobbler



I eat cobblers.


----------



## PJason

PWalls said:


> I eat cobblers.



Do they taste like feet or shoe leather?


----------



## Banjo

Explain these away:  

(Taken from The Glories of Mary, written by Bishop Aophonse de Liguori)

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/glories.htm

http://www.amazon.com/Glories-Mary-Liguori-Classic/dp/0764806645

About Mary.....

"And she is truly a mediatress of peace between sinners and God.  Sinners receive pardon by...Mary alone" (p. 82,83).  Mary is our life...Mary in obtaining this grace for sinners by her intercession, thus restores them to life (p.80).  He fails and is LOST who has not recourse to Mary."

"The Holy Church commands a WORSHIP peculiar to Mary (p. 130).  Many things...are asked from God, and are not granted; they are asked from MARY, and are obtained, for She...is even Queen of he11, and Sovereign Mistress of the Devils."

"Mary is called...the gate of heaven because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through HER (p. 160).  The Way of Salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary, and since Our salvation is in the hands of Mary...He who is protected by MARY will be saved, he who is not will be lost (pp. 169,170).

"All power is given to thee in Heaven and on earth, so that at the command of MARY all obey--even God...and thus...God has placed the whole Church...under the domination of MARY (pp. 180-181).  Mary is also "the Advocate of the whole human race...for she can do what she wills with God" (p. 193).

"Mary is the Peace-maker between sinners and God (p.197).  We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of MARY than by invoking that of Jesus.  She....is our salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help (pp. 254, 257).

"The whole Trinity, O MARY, gave thee a name...above every other name, that at Thy name, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, on earth, and under the earth"  (p. 260).


Pjason...is this what you believe?


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> Explain these away:
> 
> (Taken from The Glories of Mary, written by Bishop Aophonse de Liguori)
> 
> http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/glories.htm
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Glories-Mary-Liguori-Classic/dp/0764806645
> 
> About Mary.....
> 
> "And she is truly a mediatress of peace between sinners and God.  Sinners receive pardon by...Mary alone" (p. 82,83).  Mary is our life...Mary in obtaining this grace for sinners by her intercession, thus restores them to life (p.80).  He fails and is LOST who has not recourse to Mary."
> 
> "The Holy Church commands a WORSHIP peculiar to Mary (p. 130).  Many things...are asked from God, and are not granted; they are asked from MARY, and are obtained, for She...is even Queen of he11, and Sovereign Mistress of the Devils."
> 
> "Mary is called...the gate of heaven because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through HER (p. 160).  The Way of Salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary, and since Our salvation is in the hands of Mary...He who is protected by MARY will be saved, he who is not will be lost (pp. 169,170).
> 
> "All power is given to thee in Heaven and on earth, so that at the command of MARY all obey--even God...and thus...God has placed the whole Church...under the domination of MARY (pp. 180-181).  Mary is also "the Advocate of the whole human race...for she can do what she wills with God" (p. 193).
> 
> "Mary is the Peace-maker between sinners and God (p.197).  We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of MARY than by invoking that of Jesus.  She....is our salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help (pp. 254, 257).
> 
> "The whole Trinity, O MARY, gave thee a name...above every other name, that at Thy name, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, on earth, and under the earth"  (p. 260).
> 
> 
> Pjason...is this what you believe?




I have no problem with these quotes in context. However Mr. Paisley has chosen to break them up, and pull them out context. 


Here is an online copy of _The Glories of Mary_
http://books.google.com/books?id=tWcXAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Glories+of+Mary+intitle:The+intitle:Glories+intitlef+intitle:Mary&lr=&as_brr=1&ei=CeLtSIXkGZnqtgOpj5zRAw&client=safari#PPP2,M1

Since it is not the same addition that Mr. Paisley uses, which was the _The Glories of Mary.’ [1931 edition. Redemptorist Fathers, Brooklyn]_, the page numbers will not match, but you can do a phrase search, for your quotes. 

I would recommend reading it.


----------



## Banjo

> Mr. Paisley



Not sure who Mr. Paisley is...  

These quotes were taken from the 1931 edition.  I will go check out the online copy to see if there is any difference in wording.


----------



## Banjo

O.k....  I can't even get through the Introduction without taking issue...  I wish that I could copy and paste.  Here are some direct quotes:

"That everyone may be persuaded how important it is, both for his own good and that of others, to promote devotion towards Mary..."

"St. Bonaventure says, that those who make a point of announcing to others the glories of Mary are certain of heaven..."

"...he says the the whole of the sacred Scriptures speak in praise of Mary...  in order that we may be conducted by her into the kingdom of the blessed."

"St. Anselm says, that as the most sacred womb of Mary was the means of salvation for sinners, the hearing of her praises must necessarily convert them..."


"...it is a necessary consequence that the salvation of all depends upon preaching Mary, and exciting all to confidence in her intercession."

"O, blessed are they who bind themselves with love and confidence to these two anchors of salvation, Jesus and Mary."

These are just a few things I typed from the Introduction.

Pjason...do you count Mary as one of the anchors of salvation?  If RC's are resting in Mary as part of their salvation (which is a concept NEVER taught in the Scriptures), is that true salvation?


----------



## Banjo

I found Dr. Paisley...Ian Paisley.  I have heard of him, but had not read his articles on Mary.  I go there now to read.

http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=mary1

The Psalter of the Blessed Mary:

Psalm 16: ‘Preserve me, O Lady, I have hope in thee etc’

Psalm 19: ‘The heavens declare thy glory, O Virgin Mary, and the balm of they perfume is spread over all nations etc.’

Psalm 25: ‘Unto thee, O Lady, do I lift up my soul, etc.’

Psalm 27: ‘O Lady, may the glory of thy countenance be my light etc.’

Psalm 32: ‘Blessed are they who cherish thee in their hearts, O Virgin Mary; their sins will be mercifully effaced by thee.’

Psalm 34: ‘I will bless our Lady at all times, and never shall per praise depart from my mouth.’

Psalm 42: ‘As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thy love, blessed Virgin.’

Psalm 46: ‘O Lady, thou art my refuge in all our necessities etc.’

Psalm 68: ‘Let Mary arise, and let her enemies be scattered.’

Psalm 83: ‘How amiable are thy tabernacles, O Lady of Virtues, etc.’

Psalm 91: ‘He who dwells in the confidence of the mother shall abide under her protection, etc.’

Psalm 110: ‘The Lord has said to our Lady, my mother, sit thou on my right hand, etc.’

Psalm 150: ‘Praise our Lady in her holiness, praise her in her virtue and miracles.’


----------



## gordon 2

Banjo said:


> O.k....  I can't even get through the Introduction without taking issue...  I wish that I could copy and paste.  Here are some direct quotes:
> 
> "That everyone may be persuaded how important it is, both for his ownn good and that of others, to promote devotion towards Mary..."
> 
> "St. Bonaventure says, that those who make a point of announcing to others the glories of Mary are certain of heaven..."
> 
> "...he says the the whole of the sacred Scriptures speak in praise of Mary...  in order that we may be conducted by her into the kingdom of the blessed."
> 
> "St. Anselm says, that as the most sacred womb of Mary was the means of salvation for sinners, the hearing of her praises must necessarily convert them..."
> 
> 
> "...it is a necessary consequence that the salvation of all depends upon preaching Mary, and exciting all to confidence in her intercession."
> 
> "O, blessed are they who bind themselves with love and confidence to these two anchors of salvation, Jesus and Mary."
> 
> These are just a few things I typed from the Introduction.
> 
> Pjason...do you count Mary as one of the anchors of salvation?  If RC's are resting in Mary as part of their salvation (which is a concept NEVER taught in the Scriptures), is that true salvation?




Devotion to Mary and the Saints has long been a learning/teaching tradition in the RC chruch.

Also, the concepts of "heaven" within the RCs is linked to the intersession tradition. Briefly, I think that for RC the Saints, the "saved", just go on living after their physical deaths and are just as spiritually alive as  the humbugs kicking, sweating and spitting christian here with  the rest of us.

Perhaps protestants can better understand a RC's devotion to Mary by their devotion  or esteem to/for scripture. One can safely say that the sciptures are gates to Heaven because they lead us to the knowledged and redemption of Christ which is our Lord. Scripture can lead us to truth. The same thing happens if you get your heart and mind and your spirit focused on Mary, or some other esteemed Saint. The knowledge gained will lead to our Lord.

I know of no RCs who will say and mean that Mary is God, no more than Protestants say that Chapter and Verse is God.

Now I have read this tread and this is what I have heard: The average RC believes this or that, says this or says that. Perhaps, but how do you get to averages. I will venture to say something I can't prove: There are more protestants in the RC chruch in North America than there are average RCs as some of you say.

Although the litergy is the same everywhere for RCs, the cultures are not, the spiritual traditions are not. For example the english canadian RC's have very conservatives bishops and archbishops,( polish tradition). On the other hand french canadian bishops are far more liberal when it comes to the cult and are far more involved with social justice compared with the anglophone brothers.
On sunday both groups have few issues with each other. ( One thing I always note, "the english sing as a congragation and the french as a choir". Which means that the english say the word and the french listen to the word. LOL ...

There is no such thing as :" the average RC".


Through Mary the faithful will learn and perhaps be lead to tthe  salvation of our Lord. And it is the same, with the pilgrim who after reading Mathew, is directed to reading the Acts, and then on to Isaiah, and so forth.

I have six brothers and one sister. We all learn differently. We all have one Father and one Mother throught Jesus Christ. We can chose to make the mother of Jesus an object of male possesion or fully a great human being, and a saint.


----------



## Banjo

> I know of no RCs who will say and mean that Mary is God, no more than Protestants say that Chapter and Verse is God.



What do you think of Mary then... in your own words.  How do you think the "average Protestant"  would react to the above "Psalter of Mary."  Mary's name has replaced Jehovah God's.  How do you react to it?


----------



## gordon 2

Banjo said:


> What do you think of Mary then... in your own words.  How do you think the "average Protestant"  would react to the above "Psalter of Mary."  Mary's name has replaced Jehovah God's.  How do you react to it?



I know of Mary from two traditions. One is from the RC tradition. Which is not my perticular cup of tea, but  I have no problem with those who enjoy it.  And the other is from scipture. ( I always go to the Mary in scipture that is described before Jesus was born and account much to it for why to her Jesus was born.)

In short, the rosary is to long and grusome for my personality. Mary and the saints are Ok studies, and are for some worthy tour guides if you like to travel that way, but my Lord is no farther the in the concerns of the poor. They are all around me. I travel with them.

I suspect that the fright (fear) that protestant take of all the veneration for the Virgin Mary is in the end a fear for the cult that seems to be turning to magic and sorcery, pagan worship etc. The same can be said for RC who fear that Protestants make use of scipture as a pagan book of magic and ally for acts of evil. They are both justified as we have in our tradition the Hebrew who were not to marry into the Cananites (pagans) or else!

Irish history/english history is a great and relatively easy study of the conflict at issue here. Of course they got the issue to fever and to one of drawing blood. !!!


----------



## rjcruiser

gordon 2 said:


> I know of no RCs who will say and mean that Mary is God, no more than Protestants say that Chapter and Verse is God.



John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.


----------



## gordon 2

rjcruiser said:


> John 1:1
> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.



I have free advise for you. Study the etmology of the word, "word" in the context you state...or just Google it, or Wikipidia it and you will see that what we take as a given from our religious cultures is not always fit to take.

Or simply you are not makeing a tag along dog to the christian trinity? The language in the bible comes from the same language that the inspired prophet used to order his breakfast. The words in the bible have meaning beyond the framework of our immediate and present cares.

Your point, which I respect, is a great example of where RCs fear those who bank of chaper and verse fail.


----------



## dawg2

gordon 2 said:


> I have free advise for you. Study the etmology of the word, "word" in the context you state...or just Google it, or Wikipidia it and you will see that what we take as a given from our religious cultures is not always fit to take.
> 
> Or simply you are not makeing a tag along dog to the christian trinity? The language in the bible comes from the same language that the inspired prophet used to order his breakfast. The words in the bible have meaning beyond the framework of our immediate and present cares.
> 
> Your point, which I respect, is a great example of where RCs fear those who bank of chaper and verse fail.



Like this:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-r001.html


----------



## rjcruiser

gordon 2 said:


> I know of no RCs who will say and mean that Mary is God, no more than Protestants say that Chapter and Verse is God.





rjcruiser said:


> John 1:1
> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.





gordon 2 said:


> I have free advise for you. Study the etmology of the word, "word" in the context you state...or just Google it, or Wikipidia it and you will see that what we take as a given from our religious cultures is not always fit to take.
> 
> Or simply you are not makeing a tag along dog to the christian trinity? The language in the bible comes from the same language that the inspired prophet used to order his breakfast. The words in the bible have meaning beyond the framework of our immediate and present cares.
> 
> Your point, which I respect, is a great example of where RCs fear those who bank of chaper and verse fail.






dawg2 said:


> Like this:
> 
> http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-r001.html




No...Dawg2, I'm not JW.  I do believe in the Trinity and Gordon, I understand what that passage is saying/meaning.  I reference it though to show that the Bible is the written Word of God.  It is infallible and perfect because it comes directly from God (2 Tim 3:16).  

Again, all of these things come from the Bible.  So, Protestants view the Bible as the ultimate authority and perfect.  Catholics view Mary as perfect.  The issue is that the Bible only states that one of these two is actually true.  So which one is it?  I think 2 Tim 3:16 answers that.


----------



## Banjo

> The Psalter of the Blessed Mary:
> 
> Psalm 16: ‘Preserve me, O Lady, I have hope in thee etc’
> 
> Psalm 19: ‘The heavens declare thy glory, O Virgin Mary, and the balm of thy perfume is spread over all nations etc.’
> 
> Psalm 25: ‘Unto thee, O Lady, do I lift up my soul, etc.’
> 
> Psalm 27: ‘O Lady, may the glory of thy countenance be my light etc.’
> 
> Psalm 32: ‘Blessed are they who cherish thee in their hearts, O Virgin Mary; their sins will be mercifully effaced by thee.’
> 
> Psalm 34: ‘I will bless our Lady at all times, and never shall her praise depart from my mouth.’
> 
> Psalm 42: ‘As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thy love, blessed Virgin.’
> 
> Psalm 46: ‘O Lady, thou art my refuge in all our necessities etc.’
> 
> Psalm 68: ‘Let Mary arise, and let her enemies be scattered.’
> 
> Psalm 83: ‘How amiable are thy tabernacles, O Lady of Virtues, etc.’
> 
> Psalm 91: ‘He who dwells in the confidence of the mother shall abide under her protection, etc.’
> 
> Psalm 110: ‘The Lord has said to our Lady, my mother, sit thou on my right hand, etc.’
> 
> Psalm 150: ‘Praise our Lady in her holiness, praise her in her virtue and miracles.’



pjason, Gordon, dawg, and Big7:

On a personal level, would any of you have any problems with the above quotes from "The Psalter of Mary."  Have you ever seen this or used it in a service?  Is it standard amongst RC churches?


----------



## gordon 2

rjcruiser said:


> No...Dawg2, I'm not JW.  I do believe in the Trinity and Gordon, I understand what that passage is saying/meaning.  I reference it though to show that the Bible is the written Word of God.  It is infallible and perfect because it comes directly from God (2 Tim 3:16).
> 
> Again, all of these things come from the Bible.  So, Protestants view the Bible as the ultimate authority and perfect.  Catholics view Mary as perfect.  The issue is that the Bible only states that one of these two is actually true.  So which one is it?  I think 2 Tim 3:16 answers that.



You  realize your arguement is circular in that from the place you ask the question it is that place that answers back, but your question was to another place and  it is douthful the answer gets back to you in a manner you can consider it!

"In the beginning was the word", has a long history which dates way back from the place the apostles and evangelist stood.


----------



## gordon 2

Banjo said:


> pjason, Gordon, dawg, and Big7:
> 
> On a personal level, would any of you have any problems with the above quotes from "The Psalter of Mary."  Have you ever seen this or used it in a service?  Is it standard amongst RC churches?



This is mystical hodge podge as I see it. It is not used in worship as far as I know. Never heard of it in worship. However, I can see that some charismatics might make a prayer of it and as prayer or contemplation it is not unusual. Just look to what, for what and how people pray on Woody's. Is it to Jesus to God though His name they use? We all can fall prey to our cultures of prayer.

I don't see the above as  Mary being a substitute for the Lord. The spiritual level perhaps is less than a walk with God, or as children to a hero, and it does not pretent to be anything else, but in our prayer are we not all fighting for the increase and decrease of our ego, the purity of our souls? 

If some see in these a similarity in  the prayers they direct to God, then perhaps they need to reassess  many spiritual relationships?


----------



## dawg2

Banjo said:


> pjason, Gordon, dawg, and Big7:
> 
> On a personal level, would any of you have any problems with the above quotes from "The Psalter of Mary."  Have you ever seen this or used it in a service?  Is it standard amongst RC churches?



During mass, we have readings from the Bible, usually 3 readings.  I have not had any mass that centered solely around Mary.  Above the altar hangs a large crucifix, not a a statue of Mary.  She is neither worshipped, nor is she a God, simply the Mother of God.


----------



## Big7

Banjo said:


> pjason, Gordon, dawg, and Big7:
> 
> On a personal level, would any of you have any problems with the above quotes from "The Psalter of Mary."  Have you ever seen this or used it in a service?  Is it standard amongst RC churches?



This is not JUST for banjo. I only use this because "Big7" was in her quote.
Rest of you:

I done tole' yall' Catholics DO NOT WORSHIP MARY. PERIOD

Just because you keep saying something that you have been taught
by others that know nothing about the Catholic Church does not
or will it ever make it true. Just drop it.

Do we give Her the veneration she deserves - YES
More HERE: http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/Course/Book1B.htm#VENERATION

Do we ask Her to pray for us NOW and at the HOUR of our DEATH along with the other Saints - YES.
More HERE: http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/Course/Book2.htm#THE INVOCATION

Do we hold her as sinless and perfect - YES
More HERE:http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/Course/Book2.htm#THE PERPETUAL VIRGINITY

Do we believe she was bodily assumed (as in The Assumption) to Heaven - YES
More HERE: http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/Course/Book1B.htm#OUR LADY -

A lot more good stuff that will help you separate fact from fiction may be found HERE: http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/Course/Contents.htm
Read Up!


Time to get ready for deer season. 

I'll come back and heal you heathen in a few months.


----------



## Double Barrel BB

dawg2 said:


> During mass, we have readings from the Bible, usually 3 readings. I have not had any mass that centered solely around Mary. Above the altar hangs a large crucifix, not a a statue of Mary. She is neither worshipped, nor is she a God, simply the Mother of God.


 

Just a thought....

How can the Creator(God), have a co-creator(Mary)... I mean to be Mother of something, you have to have part in the creation of the child...

If Jesus is God and God is Jesus, then how could Mary have any part in creating God, when she herself wasn't created until long after God created the Universe?

Just a thought....

DB BB


----------



## dawg2

Double Barrel BB said:


> Just a thought....
> 
> How can the Creator(God), have a co-creator(Mary)... I mean to be Mother of something, you have to have part in the creation of the child...
> 
> If Jesus is God and God is Jesus, then how could Mary have any part in creating God, when she herself wasn't created until long after God created the Universe?
> 
> Just a thought....
> 
> DB BB


I believe she did have a part.  Did she not carry Him in her belly for 9 months?  Did she not go through labor and give birth?  Did she not nurse and feed Him?


----------



## Big7

DB BB  - Back up to #136
Check out the last link.
See ya'


----------



## Double Barrel BB

Double Barrel BB said:


> If Jesus is God and God is Jesus, then how could Mary have any part in creating God, when she herself wasn't created until long after God created the Universe?


 

Can anyone answer this one?

DB BB


----------



## dawg2

Double Barrel BB said:


> Can anyone answer this one?
> 
> DB BB



How many angels fit on the head of a pin?


----------



## Banjo

Hey Big7...I hope you are well.

I hear you keep saying no Mary worship is going on...but when the RC's put out stuff like that "Glories of Mary" and "The Mary Psalter" it sure is hard for me not to see it.  

How do any of you think Mary (or any of the saints for that matter) can hear millions of prayers being sent up from all over the world...Doesn't that somehow ascribe "supernatural" powers?  

Here is my two cents:

God is eternal, having no beginning or end.

Mary is not His mother.  It is interesting to me that Jesus never once in all of Holy Scriptures called Mary, "Mother."  I believe He called her "Woman," but would have to go back and double check.  Can you imagine Mary introducing Jesus to people by saying, "This is God, my son."

We have no examples in Scripture of anyone praying to Mary.  No special honor was shown her.  Peter, Paul, John, and James never even mentioned her name in the epistles they wrote to the church.

John took care of her until she died (remember what Jesus told him while He was on the cross), yet he does not mention her in any of his three epistles or in Revelation.  

I am afraid that Mary has been elevated to a position in the RC church that would horrify her if she were able to see it.


----------



## Double Barrel BB

dawg2 said:


> I believe she did have a part. Did she not carry Him in her belly for 9 months? Did she not go through labor and give birth? Did she not nurse and feed Him?


 
Yes she was the vessel, that gave birth to Jesus, but she could not have given birth to Jesus, without first being impregnated by God....

If Mary was without Original Sin, then that would mean she was Perfect... Just like Jesus... How is that possible?

Was Jesus not Flesh? How could He experience the temptation of sin, if he was not Flesh?

DB BB


----------



## dawg2

Banjo said:


> Hey Big7...I hope you are well.
> 
> I hear you keep saying no Mary worship is going on...but when the RC's put out stuff like that "Glories of Mary" and "The Mary Psalter" it sure is hard for me not to see it.
> 
> How do any of you think Mary (or any of the saints for that matter) can hear millions of prayers being sent up from all over the world...Doesn't that somehow ascribe "supernatural" powers?
> 
> Here is my two cents:
> 
> God is eternal, having no beginning or end.
> 
> Mary is not His mother.  It is interesting to me that Jesus never once in all of Holy Scriptures called Mary, "Mother."  I believe He called her "Woman," but would have to go back and double check.  Can you imagine Mary introducing Jesus to people by saying, "This is God, my son."
> 
> We have no examples in Scripture of anyone praying to Mary.  No special honor was shown her.  Peter, Paul, John, and James never even mentioned her name in the epistles they wrote to the church.
> 
> John took care of her until she died (remember what Jesus told him while He was on the cross), yet he does not mention her in any of his three epistles or in Revelation.
> 
> I am afraid that Mary has been elevated to a position in the RC church that would horrify her if she were able to see it.



She would be equally mortified in the splits from the church and changes in ideology, and removal of the deutercanonical books from the bible, etc., etc.,


----------



## Double Barrel BB

dawg2 said:


> How many angels fit on the head of a pin?


 

huh???

I don't have a clue, only God would know...

I am talking about time...

DB BB


----------



## Banjo

DB BB,

Dawg is messing with you.  I believe that is a useless question that was pondered often in the past by philosophers....


----------



## gordon 2

Double Barrel BB said:


> Just a thought....
> 
> How can the Creator(God), have a co-creator(Mary)... I mean to be Mother of something, you have to have part in the creation of the child...
> 
> If Jesus is God and God is Jesus, then how could Mary have any part in creating God, when she herself wasn't created until long after God created the Universe?
> 
> Just a thought....
> 
> DB BB



Ok here I go again.

Your thought is very beautiful. Stop.

I would in my view be worth studying for a lifetime.  Stop.

How could Mary have a part in creating God? Expecially that God existed prior to and created Mary? Stop


In my view that is a very beautiful question. Stop.

This is a hint/tip that might help you if you are willing to find the answer to your question. Stop.

Mary created God by makeing love. Stop.

Ok this part is perhaps difficult to grasp. Stop.

Is not God love? I think Timothy says God is a spirit? So if Mary made love as part of her genuine faith in the Lord was this not her part of God Amoung Us? Stop.

My point is that Mary was more than likely walking with God in her heart way before she gave birth to her boy. If you are into scripture, I think the very first parts of the Gospel which speaks of her indicate that she was innocent in her heart and a lover of God. Stop.

But there is more....at some point the question will be... today how is the Lord made present in people's lives. Stop.

Clear as mud? ....there is more.....go after it is my suggestion, it's your ideas or the one that "someone" planted in your heart. Stop.



Your thought is beautiful brother. You should devote the rest of your life to its contemplation!

Here's a tip: She created God by making love.


----------



## Double Barrel BB

Dawg....

Quit messing with me... My feeble brain can only take so much.... 

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB

gordon 2 said:


> Your thought is beautiful brother. You should devote the rest of your life to its contemplation!
> 
> Here's a tip: She created God by making love.


 

HUH??  Gordon... You are about the hardest person on here to understand... at least for me that is...

DB BB


----------



## dawg2

Banjo said:


> DB BB,
> 
> Dawg is messing with you.  I believe that is a useless question that was pondered often in the past by philosophers....



Yes & yes.



Double Barrel BB said:


> Dawg....
> 
> Quit messing with me... My feeble brain can only take so much....
> 
> DB BB




Sometimes I can not help myself...my apologies.


----------



## gordon 2

Double Barrel BB said:


> HUH??  Gordon... You are about the hardest person on here to understand... at least for me that is...
> 
> DB BB




See my original post. I added...to muddy it more, just for you...

No, really I added that you could undertand ...I hope it worked.

 Brother, I still say your thought is beautiful.


----------



## Double Barrel BB

gordon 2 said:


> Ok here I go again.
> 
> Your thought is very beautiful. Stop.
> 
> I would in my view be worth studying for a lifetime. Stop.
> 
> How could Mary have a part in creating God? Expecially that God existed prior to and created Mary? Stop
> 
> 
> In my view that is a very beautiful question. Stop.
> 
> This is a hint/tip that might help you if you are willing to find the answer to your question. Stop.
> 
> Mary created God by makeing love. Stop.
> 
> Ok this part is perhaps difficult to grasp. Stop.
> 
> Is not God love? I think Timothy says God is a spirit? So if Mary made love was this not her part of God Amoung Us?Stop.
> 
> My point is that Mary was more than likely walking with God in her heart way before she gave birth to her boy. If you are into scripture, I think the very first parts of the Gospel which speaks of her indicate that she was innocent in here heart and a lover of God. Stop.
> 
> But there is more....at some point the question will be... today how is the Lord made present in people's lives. Stop.
> 
> Clear as mud? ....there is more.....go after it is my suggestion, it's your ideas or the one that "someone" planted in your heart. Stop.
> 
> 
> 
> Your thought is beautiful brother. You should devote the rest of your life to its contemplation!
> 
> Here's a tip: She created God by making love.


 

So you are saying Mary created God, even after God was already created?? That doesn't make sense...

The only way that could be possible is that Mary has to be God...

DB BB


----------



## gordon 2

Double Barrel BB said:


> So you are saying Mary created God, even after God was already created?? That doesn't make sense...
> 
> The only way that could be possible is that Mary has to be God...
> 
> DB BB




Yes but some answers are not always 30 seconds of brain activity. That is why I said, it would make a great life time of study if you what you take your question seriously.

However, if that is the answer to your question, so be it. Mary had no part in creating God.But bros. I would bring it to the patent office and register it. Cause someday...you never know.


----------



## Double Barrel BB

gordon 2 said:


> Yes but some answers are not always 30 seconds of brain activity. That is why I said, it would make a great life time of study if you what you take your question seriously.
> 
> However, if that is the answer to your question, so be it. Mary had no part in creating God.But bros. I would bring it to the patent office and register it. Cause someday...you never know.


 

That took 56 secs of brain activity...

You just trying to keep me busy on thinking about it, to distract me from other more important things...

I am on to your game...

DB BB


----------



## gordon 2

*Intermission time.....*

Inter----mission time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIRIgjLHUIw


----------



## dawg2

gordon 2 said:


> Inter----mission time.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIRIgjLHUIw



I'm....speechless....


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> Not sure who Mr. Paisley is... These quotes were taken from the 1931 edition. I will go check out the online copy to see if there is any difference in wording.




 Odd you seem to quote from him verbatim. 

http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=mary1


http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=mary2



Banjo said:


> I found Dr. Paisley...Ian Paisley.



Oh that's right Dr. Ian Paisley. I am sure he and Dr. William Cosby, Dr. Robert Barker, Dr. Timothy Allen, Dr. Hugo Chavez, and Dr. Arnold Schwarzenegger all worked very hard for their degrees 

I wonder if he received an A- in kidnapping 101 or a B. I am sure he received an A++ in biology 101 since his vast knowledge in the subject lead him to the conclusion that Catholics "breed like 'rabbits' and multiply like 'vermin' "


http://www.geocities.com/athens/atrium/1678/ian.html


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> O.k.... I can't even get through the Introduction without taking issue... I wish that I could copy and paste.



You can cut and paste…

Just click on the plain text icon on the right.





Banjo said:


> Here are some direct quotes: "That everyone may be persuaded how important it is, both for his own good and that of others, to promote devotion towards Mary..." "St. Bonaventure says, that those who make a point of announcing to others the glories of Mary are certain of heaven..." "...he says the the whole of the sacred Scriptures speak in praise of Mary... in order that we may be conducted by her into the kingdom of the blessed." "St. Anselm says, that as the most sacred womb of Mary was the means of salvation for sinners, the hearing of her praises must necessarily convert them..." "...it is a necessary consequence that the salvation of all depends upon preaching Mary, and exciting all to confidence in her intercession." "O, blessed are they who bind themselves with love and confidence to these two anchors of salvation, Jesus and Mary." These are just a few things I typed from the Introduction.







Banjo said:


> Pjason...do you count Mary as one of the anchors of salvation?



Sure



Banjo said:


> If RC's are resting in Mary as part of their salvation (which is a concept NEVER taught in the Scriptures), is that true salvation?



Are we not to fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ?


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> pjason, Gordon, dawg, and Big7:
> 
> On a personal level, would any of you have any problems with the above quotes from "The Psalter of Mary."  Have you ever seen this or used it in a service?  Is it standard amongst RC churches?



Again these prayers in their proper context are perfectly acceptable.


This Psalter would not be used in a Catholic Mass. Psalters like the one I use along with the Liturgy of the Hours are used for either personal prayer or as in the case of a Monastery for group Morning and Evening prayer.


----------



## Banjo

Pjason..

The only thing I copied and pasted from Dr. Paisley's website was the Psalter bit...  I had never looked on there before then.  

I am still waiting on a yes or no answer concerning that though...

Is it o.k. to replace Jehovah's name with Mary's as if they are interchangeable?  

Would you pray those things found in that psalter?  Would you not have any problem with it were they read aloud by the priest?

This is honest curiousity here.

If Dr. Paisley said those rabbit things about Catholics, shame on him.  That was rude, and uncalled for...I know a lot of Protestant homeschoolers who could give the Catholics a good run for their money in the offspring department.


----------



## gordon 2

Banjo said:


> Pjason..
> 
> The only thing I copied and pasted from Dr. Paisley's website was the Psalter bit...  I had never looked on there before then.
> 
> I am still waiting on a yes or no answer concerning that though...
> 
> Is it o.k. to replace Jehovah's name with Mary's as if they are interchangeable?
> 
> Would you pray those things found in that psalter?  Would you not have any problem with it were they read aloud by the priest?
> 
> This is honest curiousity here.
> 
> If Dr. Paisley said those rabbit things about Catholics, shame on him.  That was rude, and uncalled for...I know a lot of Protestant homeschoolers who could give the Catholics a good run for their money in the offspring department.



Banjo! Did you get info from something Ian Paisley said about the Catholics! Man, I never thought he could be fresh bait.

Did you ever see and hear his famous never,never speech... It comes from the cellar of his heart, it is almost operatic. Here look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9uHhLe6WE0  and this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoCU6Clpkxk&feature=related

Who needs Saturday afternoon at the Met... after these bits.


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> Pjason..
> 
> The only thing I copied and pasted from Dr. Paisley's website was the Psalter bit...  I had never looked on there before then.



OK



Banjo said:


> I am still waiting on a yes or no answer concerning that though...
> 
> Is it o.k. to replace Jehovah's name with Mary's as if they are interchangeable?



That is not what is going on here. St. Bonaventure is not replacing God with Mary. Read the Psalter itself. 




Banjo said:


> Would you pray those things found in that psalter?



Would I say those prayers. 



Banjo said:


> Would you not have any problem with it were they read aloud by the priest?



I would not have a problem it at all.




Do you have a problem with this statement?




> Blessed the man, whose assistance is from Thee, he has arrainged ascensions in his own heart in the vale of tears, in the place, which he placed them. Since beatitude is nothing other, than the fruition of the Most High Good; and the Most High Good is above us: no one can become blessed, unless he ascends above his very self, not by an ascent with the body, but with the heart. But we are not able to be raised above ourselves unless by means of a superior virtue raising us. For however much as interior steps are arrainged, nothing is done, unless the Divine Assistance accompanies. However the Divine Assistance accompanies those who seek it from their heart humbly and devoutly; and this is to long for it in this vale of tears, which is done through fervent praying. Let us pray therefore and say to the Lord Our God: Lead me forth, Lord, in Thy way, and let me step in Thy truth; let my heart be glad, that it fears Thy Name.


----------



## dawg2

Banjo said:


> ....The only thing I copied and pasted from Dr. Paisley's website was the Psalter bit...  I had never looked on there before then....
> .



Wow.  I did not know you were pulling your comments from that piece of trash....I am very disappointed in you Banjo...Being Irish, we're not real "fond" of that particular individual....very disappointed....


----------



## Big7

dawg2 said:


> Wow.  I did not know you were pulling your comments from that piece of trash....I am very disappointed in you Banjo...Being Irish, we're not real "fond" of that particular individual....very disappointed....



ME TOO!!! 

Banjo - he is a nut-job. Won't do you any good to listen to that garbage.


----------



## Big7

OK folks - I don't know how this turned into the Mary thread but... Here goes. I still don't feel 100%
(thanks for asking banjo) so you will have to OPEN THE LINKS and READ. I'm not going to go through and dissect
every paragraph. Maybe later, if yall don't get it.

Dogmas are fundamental (official) teachings of The Catholic Church.

Dogmas of Our Lady
The four principal dogmas relating to the Blessed Virgin Mary are: HERE:
http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/4dgmMary.htm

EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT MARY related to THE CHURCH may be found HERE:
http://www.theworkofgod.org/OurLady.htm

Have fun and READ UP!


----------



## Banjo

> Wow. I did not know you were pulling your comments from that piece of trash....I am very disappointed in you Banjo...Being Irish, we're not real "fond" of that particular individual....very disappointed....
> __



You will have to blame Pjason...he sent me there.


----------



## Banjo

> That is not what is going on here. St. Bonaventure is not replacing God with Mary. Read the Psalter itself.



O.k., I agree not to go back to Dr. Paisley's site.  I will just use original RC documents when I can find them.  Again...I ONLY copied and pasted the Mary Psalter from there.

I did find the original Psalter online, but I can't read it without feeling sickened.  Why would any man feel he had the right to do that to Scripture?  

http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG0026.htm

Here is Psalm 1:

PSALM 1

Blessed is the man, O Virgin Mary, who loves thy name; thy grace will comfort his soul.

He will be refreshed as by fountains of water; thou wilt produce in him the fruit of justice.

Blessed art thou among women; by the faith of thy holy heart.

By the beauty of thy body thou surpassest all women; by the excellence of thy sanctity thou surpassest all angels and archangels

Thy mercy and thy grace are preached everywhere; God has blessed the works of thy hands.

Glory be to the Father, etc.

God is added on...kind of like an after thought.  I only went through four or five Psalms... I realized that the veneration of Mary occurred in the RC church.  I knew that I did not agree with it, but until these past few days, I did not realize to what extent.  

This is so wrong, but I don't know how to make you guys see it.  My heart is heavy...


----------



## Jeffriesw

Big7 said:


> ME TOO!!!
> 
> Banjo - he is a nut-job. Won't do you any good to listen to that garbage.




I couldn't believe that garbage that flows out of that mans mouth, He must get his drivel straight from Satan.
Kidnapping, Burning people out of there homes?
All in the name of God?

If what I just read about him is true, He needs to be shunned by every Christian.


----------



## dawg2

Swamp Runner said:


> I couldn't believe that garbage that flows out of that mans mouth, He must get his drivel straight from Satan.
> Kidnapping, Burning people out of there homes?
> All in the name of God?
> 
> If what I just read about him is true, He needs to be shunned by every Christian.



Unfortunately, it is true.


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> O.k., I agree not to go back to Dr. Paisley's site.  I will just use original RC documents when I can find them.  Again...I ONLY copied and pasted the Mary Psalter from there.



OK



Banjo said:


> I did find the original Psalter online, but I can't read it without feeling sickened.  Why would any man feel he had the right to do that to Scripture?
> 
> http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG0026.htm



Why would feel you have the right to judge his interpretation of scripture?  Maybe this is how the Holy Spirit guided him. Or is scripture only open to individual interpretation as guided by the Holy Spirit only as far as it agrees with Banjo and her understanding.




Banjo said:


> Here is Psalm 1:
> 
> PSALM 1
> 
> Blessed is the man, O Virgin Mary, who loves thy name; thy grace will comfort his soul.
> 
> He will be refreshed as by fountains of water; thou wilt produce in him the fruit of justice.
> 
> Blessed art thou among women; by the faith of thy holy heart.
> 
> By the beauty of thy body thou surpassest all women; by the excellence of thy sanctity thou surpassest all angels and archangels
> 
> Thy mercy and thy grace are preached everywhere; God has blessed the works of thy hands.
> 
> Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning is now, and ever shall be world without end.



I see nothing wrong here. I do love the name of Mary; she bore and reared Our Lord Jesus Christ. She is blessed among women the angel said so, her beauty is greater then all other women her beauty is in her devotion to the Lord. God has blessed her. 





Banjo said:


> God is added on...kind of like an after thought.



The Glory Be is not just some add on, it points back to God and gives glory Him now and forever.



Banjo said:


> I only went through four or five Psalms... I realized that the veneration of Mary occurred in the RC church.  I knew that I did not agree with it, but until these past few days, I did not realize to what extent.



So after maybe one or two minutes of reading you are prepared to judge us all. 



Banjo said:


> This is so wrong, but I don't know how to make you guys see it.  My heart is heavy...



See what? Let’s see 2 millennia of Catholic Church teaching verses six years of Zion Presbyterian Church. I think I will stick with experience over youth on this one.

Thanks for your time and input. I am going to make a suggestion that I have made before, you can take it for what you will.

Stop telling me what I believe and how I worship; I know how I believe and how I worship. I am more then happy when ask a question to answer it, but when I am asked a question and I answer it, do not tell me that the answer is not what I believe. 


Start telling me how you believe and how you worship, because that is something I do not know.


----------



## Banjo

All right...I am studying the Rosary now...

This from a Catholic website:

Our Lady has revealed to several people that each time they say a Hail Mary they are giving her a beautiful rose and that each complete Rosary makes her a crown of roses. 

To whom and how was it revealed?  I read somewhere here about an apparition.  That is scary.

The rose is the queen of flowers, and so the Rosary is the rose of all devotions and it is therefore the most important one. The Holy Rosary is considered a perfect prayer because within it lies the awesome story of our salvation. With the Rosary in fact we meditate the mysteries of joy, of sorrow and the glory of Jesus and Mary. It's a simple prayer, humble so much like Mary. It's a prayer we can all say together with Her, the Mother of God. 

I see Jesus mentioned once...but I am thinking the Rosary, "the perfect prayer" that has "the story of salvation" in it, is mostly about Mary.  


With the Hail Mary we invite Her to pray for us. Our Lady always grants our request. She joins Her prayer to ours. Therefore it becomes ever more useful, because what Mary asks She always receives, Jesus can never say no to whatever His Mother asks for. 

That is not what the Bible says.  I think it is backwards...Mary said of Jesus, "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it."   Jesus also rebuked Mary when He said, "Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? Whosoever shall do the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother."


In every apparition, the heavenly Mother has invited us to say the Rosary as a powerful weapon against evil, to bring us to true peace. With your prayer made together with Your heavenly Mother, you can obtain the great gift of bringing about a change of hearts and conversion. 

The Rosary (which is about Mary) together with Mary brings about a conversion????  Where is Jesus?


Each day, through prayer you can drive away from yourselves and from your homeland many dangers and many evils.

The 15 Promises of Mary 

Where did these come from?  

Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive powerful graces.

I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary.

The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against he11, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.

It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.

The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.

Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just, he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.

Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church.

Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise.

I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.

The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven.

You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary.

All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.

I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.

All who recite the Rosary are my children, and brothers and sisters of my only Son, Jesus Christ.

Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination.  


http://www.ourladyweb.com/mary-rosary-about.html


----------



## rjcruiser

PJason said:


> So after maybe one or two minutes of reading you are prepared to judge us all.


I didn't see anything judgemental in Banjo's post...just what she feels about it and questions about it.  You question Protestants as well as add personal attacks.  You should be willing to atleast take questions from others seeing what you dish out.  And, if you can't take it, don't dish it out.



			
				PJason said:
			
		

> See what? Let’s see 2 millennia of Catholic Church teaching verses six years of Zion Presbyterian Church. I think I will stick with experience over youth on this one.


This is the great lie that the Catholic church tries so hard to spread.  That the Catholic Church has been from the beginning, 2000 years old, while any form of Protestantism is only 400 years old and was merely the thoughts of a lunatic.  However, in past threads, I've posted quotes from the early church fathers to show their agreement on many "Protestant Only" positions.  



			
				PJason said:
			
		

> Thanks for your time and input. I am going to make a suggestion that I have made before, you can take it for what you will.
> 
> Stop telling me what I believe and how I worship; I know how I believe and how I worship. I am more then happy when ask a question to answer it, but when I am asked a question and I answer it, do not tell me that the answer is not what I believe.
> 
> Start telling me how you believe and how you worship, because that is something I do not know.



Funny how you answer questions and then when someone questions your belief and wants to debate a position, you come back with this.  You get so defensive of your position.  And then you explain something that you do, and then don't want others to call it as they see it.

It's like someone putting corn out under their treestand.  Then when the gamewarden comes around and says you are baiting, your reply is, No I'm not.  I'm merely planting some corn under my stand.

I guess this thread has further showed the distinct differences between the Protestant Church and the Catholic Church.  I, like Banjo, find it amazing that you can pray the rosary, say the Mary Psalter's and still come out saying that you aren't worshiping Mary.


----------



## PJason

Why are you leaving out the Mysteries? You know the focus of the Rosary, all of them taken from the Gospels. Do you leave those out because you did not know they were there or because they do not bolster your case?

Joyful Mysteries
1.	The Annunciation. Fruit of the Mystery: Humility 
2.	The Visitation. Fruit of the Mystery: Love of Neighbor 
3.	The Nativity. Fruit of the Mystery: Poverty (poor in spirit), Detachment from the things of the world, Contempt of Riches, Love of the Poor 
4.	The Presentation of Jesus at the Temple. Fruit of the Mystery: Purity 
5.	The Finding of the Child Jesus in the Temple. Fruit of the Mystery: True Wisdom and True Conversion. 
Sorrowful Mysteries
1.	The Agony in the Garden. Fruit of the Mystery: Sorrow for Sin, Uniformity with the will of God 
2.	The Scourging at the Pillar. Fruit of the Mystery: Mortification 
3.	The Crowning with Thorns. Fruit of the Mystery: Contempt of the world 
4.	The Carrying of the Cross. Fruit of the Mystery: Patience 
5.	The Crucifixion. Fruit of the Mystery: Salvation 
Glorious Mysteries
1.	The Resurrection. Fruit of the Mystery: Faith 
2.	The Ascension. Fruit of the Mystery: Hope and desire for Heaven 
3.	The Descent of the Holy Spirit. Fruit of the Mystery: Holy Wisdom to know the truth and share with everyone 
4.	The Assumption of Mary. Fruit of the Mystery: Grace of a Happy Death and True Devotion towards Mary 
5.	The Coronation of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Fruit of the Mystery: Perseverance and Crown of Glory 
Luminous Mysteries
1.	The Baptism of Jesus in the Jordan. Fruit of the Mystery: Openness to the Holy Spirit 
2.	The Wedding at Cana. Fruit of the Mystery: To Jesus through Mary 
3.	Jesus' Proclamation of the Kingdom of God. Fruit of the Mystery: Repentance and Trust in God 
4.	The Transfiguration. Fruit of the Mystery: Desire for Holiness 
5.	The Institution of the Eucharist. Fruit of the Mystery: Adoration


----------



## dawg2

PJason said:


> Why are you leaving out the Mysteries? You know the focus of the Rosary, all of them taken from the Gospels. Do you leave those out because you did not know they were there or because they do not bolster your case?
> 
> Joyful Mysteries
> 1.	The Annunciation. Fruit of the Mystery: Humility
> 2.	The Visitation. Fruit of the Mystery: Love of Neighbor
> 3.	The Nativity. Fruit of the Mystery: Poverty (poor in spirit), Detachment from the things of the world, Contempt of Riches, Love of the Poor
> 4.	The Presentation of Jesus at the Temple. Fruit of the Mystery: Purity
> 5.	The Finding of the Child Jesus in the Temple. Fruit of the Mystery: True Wisdom and True Conversion.
> Sorrowful Mysteries
> 1.	The Agony in the Garden. Fruit of the Mystery: Sorrow for Sin, Uniformity with the will of God
> 2.	The Scourging at the Pillar. Fruit of the Mystery: Mortification
> 3.	The Crowning with Thorns. Fruit of the Mystery: Contempt of the world
> 4.	The Carrying of the Cross. Fruit of the Mystery: Patience
> 5.	The Crucifixion. Fruit of the Mystery: Salvation
> Glorious Mysteries
> 1.	The Resurrection. Fruit of the Mystery: Faith
> 2.	The Ascension. Fruit of the Mystery: Hope and desire for Heaven
> 3.	The Descent of the Holy Spirit. Fruit of the Mystery: Holy Wisdom to know the truth and share with everyone
> 4.	The Assumption of Mary. Fruit of the Mystery: Grace of a Happy Death and True Devotion towards Mary
> 5.	The Coronation of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Fruit of the Mystery: Perseverance and Crown of Glory
> Luminous Mysteries
> 1.	The Baptism of Jesus in the Jordan. Fruit of the Mystery: Openness to the Holy Spirit
> 2.	The Wedding at Cana. Fruit of the Mystery: To Jesus through Mary
> 3.	Jesus' Proclamation of the Kingdom of God. Fruit of the Mystery: Repentance and Trust in God
> 4.	The Transfiguration. Fruit of the Mystery: Desire for Holiness
> 5.	The Institution of the Eucharist. Fruit of the Mystery: Adoration




I am thinking that it was left out because--->





PJason said:


> because they do not bolster your case?


----------



## Banjo

> Start telling me how you believe and how you worship, because that is something I do not know.



Pjason,  I will be glad to tell you anything you want to know about they way I worship.  All you have to do is ask, and I will gladly discuss it.  Will you agree, nope...and that is o.k.  I am in the minority on here even amongst the Protestants.  I don't take it personally when others don't agree.  I will listen to any objections you raise, and answer them from the Scriptures, as honestly as I can.



> Why would feel you have the right to judge his interpretation of scripture? Maybe this is how the Holy Spirit guided him. Or is scripture only open to individual interpretation as guided by the Holy Spirit only as far as it agrees with Banjo and her understanding.



Scripture should always be used to interpret Scripture.  Placing Mary's name in the place of Jehovah's is against everything the Bible teaches.  



> So after maybe one or two minutes of reading you are prepared to judge us all.



I told you that I was going to begin reading original Catholic documents, and I have.  I am nobody's "judge."  We will all give an account to the JUDGE one day.



> See what? Let’s see 2 millennia of Catholic Church teaching verses six years of Zion Presbyterian Church. I think I will stick with experience over youth on this one.



The doctrine taught at my church dates back to the apostles.  Ever since NT times, there have been people who accepted the basic principles that Protestantism espouses.  They weren't called Protestants or even Roman Catholics; they were simply called Christians.  Even after the Roman Catholic church became organized as such, small pockets of these people existed.  



> Stop telling me what I believe and how I worship; I know how I believe and how I worship. I am more then happy when ask a question to answer it, but when I am asked a question and I answer it, do not tell me that the answer is not what I believe.



Pjason, the problem I am having is that what you are saying seems different to me than what I have been reading concerning Mary.  It is hard for me to understand how you can say you don't 
"worship" her, yet you are praying to her as a "co-anchor of salvation," or as a "redemptress," or as to a "mediatress."

These are only things that the Bible says of Jesus Christ.  Can you honestly not see from where I am coming?


----------



## Banjo

> Why are you leaving out the Mysteries? You know the focus of the Rosary, all of them taken from the Gospels. Do you leave those out because you did not know they were there or because they do not bolster your case?



I will look back at the website where I got my information...

If you know of a good place that explains it, list it and I will look at it.


----------



## Banjo

Went back and looked... Here are the explanations (or prayers???)given for the Joyful Mysteries:

Oh Mary with Your "yes" You have opened heaven's ways, You have achieved the will of the Father. You will be blessed for ever: Your intercession is heard in Heaven, because You have accepted God's plan. Let us pray that we can say "yes" to the Father in every instance He ask it of us. Mary help us to be humble and obedient to God's will.

Mary goes to visit Elisabeth: She carries God to Her cousin, for the love of Her brothers and neighbors. Lord help us to carry Christ to others, like Mary did. Let us ask Mary the gift of burning charity.

 Infant Jesus in the manger. Mary, Joseph and the sheperds adore Him. Let us also adore Christ, the Son of God, in the silence of our soul and from the depth of our heart. Let us ask Mary to make us love Jesus more, and also the gift of poverty of spirit.

 We need to pay attention to the voice of God, to discern His call and accept the mission He gave us. After the Simeon prophecy, Mary takes into Her Heart the wound of sorrow, but in the silence She accepts the will of Her Father.

Let us think of how many times we have been far from Jesus; from that Jesus, who with so much love has died for us. Let us meditate that in the difficulties of life the only safety is finding Jesus and never again leaving his great love.

This is the first one...  I put Mary in Red and Jesus in Blue.

If I left any out is was not on purpose...


----------



## PJason

rjcruiser said:


> I didn't see anything judgemental in Banjo's post...just what she feels about it and questions about it.  You question Protestants as well as add personal attacks.  You should be willing to atleast take questions from others seeing what you dish out.  And, if you can't take it, don't dish it out.



Show one post where I have ever said that someone does not believe what they are saying. 




rjcruiser said:


> This is the great lie that the Catholic church tries so hard to spread.  That the Catholic Church has been from the beginning, 2000 years old, while any form of Protestantism is only 400 years old and was merely the thoughts of a lunatic.  However, in past threads, I've posted quotes from the early church fathers to show their agreement on many "Protestant Only" positions.



No you posted parts of quotes to make it seem like they did, however when confronted with whole text you have no answer. I never said they were lunatics, in fact I have said before the Luther had some good points and that the Church corrected the errors in disciple due to his objections. 




rjcruiser said:


> Funny how you answer questions and then when someone questions your belief and wants to debate a position, you come back with this.  You get so defensive of your position.  And then you explain something that you do, and then don't want others to call it as they see it.



I have no problem with anyone questioning my beliefs; trust me there is no shortage of people around here to do it. I answer questions all the time. What I get defensive about are people who tell me what I believe or do not believe. I have no problem questioning others I do it all the time, however I do not question a persons faith or belief in God. 



rjcruiser said:


> It's like someone putting corn out under their treestand.  Then when the gamewarden comes around and says you are baiting, your reply is, No I'm not.  I'm merely planting some corn under my stand.



What do I have to hide by not telling you or anyone else that I worship Mary or the Saints? 

If I did worship Mary and the Saints, would it not be blasphemous for me to deny it?

I think it has been well established that I am not embarrassed in the least to say the Rosary, or say intercessory prayers to the Saints, so why do you not believe me when I say I do not see these things as worship?



rjcruiser said:


> I guess this thread has further showed the distinct differences between the Protestant Church and the Catholic Church.  I, like Banjo, find it amazing that you can pray the rosary, say the Mary Psalter's and still come out saying that you aren't worshiping Mary.



I find it amazing that you are able to judge what I do or do not believe even when you have been told time and time again, by me, exactly what I believe.


----------



## Banjo

The Light Mysteries:

The Baptism in the Jordan is first of all a mystery of light. Here, as Christ descends into the waters, the innocent one who became “sin” for our sake (cf. 2Cor 5:21), the heavens open wide and the voice of the Father declares him the beloved Son (cf. Mt 3:17 and parallels), while the Spirit descends on him to invest him with the mission which he is to carry out.

Another mystery of light is the first of the signs, given at Cana (cf. Jn 2:1- 12), when Christ changes water into wine and opens the hearts of the disciples to faith, thanks to the intervention of Mary, the first among believers.

The preaching by which Jesus proclaims the coming of the Kingdom of God, calls to conversion (cf. Mk 1:15) and forgives the sins of all who draw near to him in humble trust (cf. Mk 2:3-13; Lk 7:47- 48): the inauguration of that ministry of mercy which he continues to exercise until the end of the world, particularly through the Sacrament of Reconciliation which he has entrusted to his Church (cf. Jn 20:22-23).

The mystery of light par excellence is the Transfiguration, traditionally believed to have taken place on Mount Tabor. The glory of the Godhead shines forth from the face of Christ as the Father commands the astonished Apostles to “listen to him” (cf. Lk 9:35 and parallels) and to prepare to experience with him the agony of the Passion, so as to come with him to the joy of the Resurrection and a life transfigured by the Holy Spirit.

A final mystery of light is the institution of the Eucharist, in which Christ offers his body and blood as food under the signs of bread and wine, and testifies “to the end” his love for humanity (Jn 13:1), for whose salvation he will offer himself in sacrifice.

This is more centered on Christ.


----------



## Double Barrel BB

Double Barrel BB said:


> Just a thought....
> 
> If Jesus is God and God is Jesus, then how could Mary have any part in creating God, when she herself wasn't created until long after God created the Universe?


 


Double Barrel BB said:


> If Mary was without Original Sin, then that would mean she was Perfect... Just like Jesus... How is that possible?
> 
> Was Jesus not Flesh? How could He experience the temptation of sin, if he was not Flesh?


 
Can anyone answer these questions?  If you can't just tell me you can't, I am not trying to paint you into a corner, I am just trying to understand your beliefs... and please do not paste some 3 for 4 page article, just your beliefs on the matter...

DB BB


----------



## Banjo

Sorrowful Mysteries:

In the forsaking prayer to the Father, Jesus found strength, trust, and an angel was sent to comfort Him. So Jesus will be our comforting angel. It's as He said to us: " Why do you worry in your difficulties? Be strong in me; look to your God in your most troubled hour, and you will be triumphant." Let us ask to forsake ourselves to God, to always do His will.

How many pains, how many torments, and how many wounds on the body of Jesus? How much blood falls to the ground, while His tormenters laugh, insult him, and gather their strength to hit the innocent body of Jesus again? Let us ask to accept every insult for the love of our Lord, and also a true regret for our sins.

Think of the indignity, outrage, pain, and humiliation that Jesus suffered. They striped Him of every dignity, He was treated as the guilt of our worst sins. He seems to say to us: " Why do you despair when you suffer? Is that the way you love me? Meditate about my passions and find in them great riches." Let us ask the gift of patience to accept all humiliations, thinking of how Jesus suffered for us.

Even if He had suffered just for you, Jesus would have accepted such pains, great is His love for you. Along the road to Calvary Jesus sees Mary, His Mother. Can we imagine the moment when Their eyes met? Oh how Her Heart must have ached. Let us pray to Mary for the grace to always accept our cross, so that Her and Jesus may bear it.

Jesus wishes to see us close to His Mother; He wishes that, like children, we keep our hand in the hand of Mary. That is what He wants. He asks us to look to the heavenly Mother, that is depend on Her. He asks that we accept Our Lady as our true Mother, who will ignite in us a fervent love of Her Son. Mary, we trust in You, take us and put us in the refuge of Your Immaculate Heart, heal with Your humility our pride, that so often takes us far from God.


----------



## Banjo

Glorious Mysteries:

The risen Jesus has proved that man, together with Him, can have power over sin and therefore death. Jesus, help raise us, deliver us from sin, from evil, give us Your light, give us Your joy. Rekindle inside us the love, the faith, the hopefulness, and the gift of prayer. Let us ask Mary for the gift of an unshakeable faith.

Jesus, You have not deserted Your apostles in anguish, but have given them the joy of knowing Jesus "glorified" over 40 days . After Your Ascension, You granted to all those who seek You the gift of recieving You in the Eucharist. Through Mary we trust in you. Mary, give us the gift of hope.

Jesus, inffuse us with the Comforter, the Holy Ghost, enlighten us with the light of Your Spirit, with His strength enter in the deepest parts of our hearts and heal us. Deliver us, fill up our hearts with Your love. Make us apostles of Yours, dear Lord. Let us ask Mary the gift of true love, the gift of prayer from the heart. 
"Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Your well-beloved Spouse."


Now that Mary is raised into heaven, She prays for Her sons and daughters, those sons and daughters Jesus left Her when He was on the cross. Mary, pray for us, You know our fears, take us into Your Heart, the Heart of a Mother. Help us now and in the time of our death to be with You in Heaven. We ask of you a devotion to Your Immaculate Heart, where we may take refuge in times of trouble.

Let us trust in Mary, Let us call to Her, let us love Her, let us confide in Her, because She gives Her all to us. We have a Mother in Heaven who is also a Queen; thus we need to turn to Her with full faith and hopefulness. If we ask for something while praying the Holy Rosary, it will be granted to us. Ask Her for the gift of prayer, a prayer of the heart, said only for love, a love for Her and Jesus. Let us also ask for a consistency of prayer, to always be joined to Her Heart, and therefore to the Heart of Jesus.

I think that is it on the Mysteries...right?


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> Pjason,  I will be glad to tell you anything you want to know about they way I worship.  All you have to do is ask, and I will gladly discuss it.



When I have a question I will ask



Banjo said:


> Will you agree, nope...and that is o.k.



Maybe you should wait for my answer first, before deciding how I will answer.



Banjo said:


> I am in the minority on here even amongst the Protestants.  I don't take it personally when others don't agree.  I will listen to any objections you raise, and answer them from the Scriptures, as honestly as I can.



I do not take it personally when I do not agree; I do take it personally when others tell me what I believe. There is a difference.



Banjo said:


> Scripture should always be used to interpret Scripture.  Placing Mary's name in the place of Jehovah's is against everything the Bible teaches.



I would say it comes down to how we understand the differences in Adoration, Veneration, Worship, and Prayer.



Banjo said:


> I told you that I was going to begin reading original Catholic documents, and I have.  I am nobody's "judge."  We will all give an account to the JUDGE one day.



 Great. I would start with the Bible and then move onto the Catechism. If you would like a copy of either I will send them your way. Also I would recommend Scott Hahn’s “Hail Holy Queen” for an explanation on the doctrines on Mary.




Banjo said:


> The doctrine taught at my church dates back to the apostles.  Ever since NT times, there have been people who accepted the basic principles that Protestantism espouses.  They weren't called Protestants or even Roman Catholics; they were simply called Christians.  Even after the Roman Catholic church became organized as such, small pockets of these people existed.



If you could name some of these groups.



Banjo said:


> Pjason, the problem I am having is that what you are saying seems different to me than what I have been reading concerning Mary.  It is hard for me to understand how you can say you don't "worship" her, yet you are praying to her as a "co-anchor of salvation," or as a "redemptress," or as to a "mediatress." These are only things that the Bible says of Jesus Christ.



Again I would say it comes down to how we understand the differences in Adoration, Veneration, Worship, and Prayer. 



Banjo said:


> Can you honestly not see from where I am coming?



I can see your side of the argument, even if I disagree with it. Can you see mine?


----------



## PWalls

PJason said:


> I can see your side of the argument, even if I disagree with it. Can you see mine?



Not without a better understanding of "Adoration, Veneration, Worship, and Prayer".


----------



## rjcruiser

PWalls said:


> Not without a better understanding of "Adoration, Veneration, Worship, and Prayer".



I think you hit the nail on the head.

Same words, but different meanings.


----------



## PJason

PWalls said:


> Not without a better understanding of "Adoration, Veneration, Worship, and Prayer".




Great so we have a place to start.


----------



## Banjo

Why don't we all put our understanding of the "terms" out on the table for discussion.  Here are the definitions from an online dictionary:

Adoration:  
1. The act of worship.

2. Profound love or regard.

Venerate: 

To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference.

Worship:  

1.
a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is          expressed.
2. Ardent devotion; adoration.

Prayer:  
1.
a. A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship.
b. The act of making a reverent petition to God, a god, or another object of worship.
2. An act of communion with God, a god, or another object of worship, such as in devotion, confession, praise, or thanksgiving: 
3. A specially worded form used to address God, a god, or another object of worship.


----------



## PWalls

PJason said:


> Great so we have a place to start.



How about starting a thread with the definition of those words. That would help.


----------



## Banjo

> How about starting a thread with the definition of those words. That would help.



Oops...I think we posted simultaneously.  I will be glad to move mine.


----------



## PWalls

Banjo said:


> Oops...I think we posted simultaneously.  I will be glad to move mine.



A better way to start would be to get the RCC definition in context. I assume PJason can do that easily and readily.


----------



## Banjo

> A better way to start would be to get the RCC definition in context. I assume PJason can do that easily and readily.



Roger That...


----------



## Big7

PWalls said:


> A better way to start would be to get the RCC definition in context. I assume PJason can do that easily and readily.



Definition of what?


----------



## Lil Sis

PJason said:


> If you could please show anywhere in the Catechism where it says Mary takes the place of Jesus or is greater then Jesus?



As you pointed out earlier, PJason, the Catechism does not say that Mary takes the place of Jesus, rather, it specifically denies that and clarifies the opposite:

"Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."512

People who purport that an equality of Mary and Jesus is a teaching of the Catholic church are either innocently misinformed or deliberately bearing false witness against the Church.  This is not our teaching.

Blessings to all!

Lil Sis


----------



## Lil Sis

PWalls said:


> How about starting a thread with the definition of those words. That would help.



You will also need a clear understanding of the word "intercessor."


Lil Sis


----------



## EMC-GUN

The Pope is blessing Mary's statue with incense. People bow to, pray to and even kiss her statue. The are expecting Mary to "inspire" them somehow, rather than Christ. To a Protestant, that is blasphemous.




Actually if you follow the bible as a Christian (follower of Christ) this act is blasphemous regardless of denominational affiliation.


----------



## EMC-GUN

Wow!!! This thread is a doozy! I commend you Banjo, you have definitely done your research, and some of the things you have quoted and/or copy and pasted truly frighten me! The bible is pretty clear about false idols and misdirected worship. I fear for some of the folks here. Truly I do..................Now for a little background if I may; I grew up in the north (yeah, yeah yankee I know) I was christened a catholic as an infant. A choice I had no say in, yet apparently it made everything alright with a few spoken Latin words and some dipping. As a youth I attended "Mass" pretty regularly, it then petered off to Christmas and Easter only (from what I saw in the local circle of catholics that were family friends this was a common thing). When I did attend regularly the only thing I could liken it to was a funeral. People with sour pusses and dressed in black. I never felt the love of Christ. Ever! The priest who was an Irish immigrant would drink his share of the communion wine before "mass" and would mumble in Latin in inaudible tones. I learned a lot about Mary. I learned to pray to her (Wow! I know the bible condemns this type of thing). I also learned to light candles. (I still don't understand this one). I really just wanted to play with the matches  Purgatory?!?!?! I have yet to find this in the bible. Sorry. In my life I have come full circle; in that I mean I was hopelessly lost until I was 23 years old. I am now saved by Grace (Not Mary) and serving God through Christ (not the Pope or Mary) I was baptized (by choice) as a demonstration of my commitment to the Kingdom of God. I have questioned many people on there faith and have found a good majority (about 9 out of 10) that claim to be atheists or agnostics have a history of catholicism in there lives. They like me had become disenfranchised at some point in there lives. I heard the true Gospel as a young man and I thought it was the makings of a cult. All I knew was Mary, Pope, Priest, Rosary, and "mass". I now know the truth, and the truth has set me free!!!! PRAISE GOD!!!!!!!!!! As a side note my grandfather strung Rosary beads, my grandmother washed the priest's vestments, and my father was an altar boy. I too have come from a long line of catholics.


----------



## Ronnie T

With all that Mary did as an obedient young lady and later on as the mother of Jesus, she was still only an unworthy person given an opportunity to serve God.  All God's children have that same opportunity today.
Learn and look to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Mary has nothing to offer, other than a good example.


----------



## dawg2

EMC-GUN said:


> Wow!!! This thread is a doozy! I commend you Banjo, you have definitely done your research, and some of the things you have quoted and/or copy and pasted truly frighten me! The bible is pretty clear about false idols and misdirected worship. I fear for some of the folks here. Truly I do..................Now for a little background if I may; I grew up in the north (yeah, yeah yankee I know) I was christened a catholic as an infant. A choice I had no say in, yet apparently it made everything alright with a few spoken Latin words and some dipping. As a youth I attended "Mass" pretty regularly, it then petered off to Christmas and Easter only (from what I saw in the local circle of catholics that were family friends this was a common thing). When I did attend regularly the only thing I could liken it to was a funeral. People with sour pusses and dressed in black. I never felt the love of Christ. Ever! The priest who was an Irish immigrant would drink his share of the communion wine before "mass" and would mumble in Latin in inaudible tones. I learned a lot about Mary. I learned to pray to her (Wow! I know the bible condemns this type of thing). I also learned to light candles. (I still don't understand this one). I really just wanted to play with the matches  Purgatory?!?!?! I have yet to find this in the bible. Sorry. In my life I have come full circle; in that I mean I was hopelessly lost until I was 23 years old. I am now saved by Grace (Not Mary) and serving God through Christ (not the Pope or Mary) I was baptized (by choice) as a demonstration of my commitment to the Kingdom of God. I have questioned many people on there faith and have found a good majority (about 9 out of 10) that claim to be atheists or agnostics have a history of catholicism in there lives. They like me had become disenfranchised at some point in there lives. I heard the true Gospel as a young man and I thought it was the makings of a cult. All I knew was Mary, Pope, Priest, Rosary, and "mass". I now know the truth, and the truth has set me free!!!! PRAISE GOD!!!!!!!!!! As a side note my grandfather strung Rosary beads, my grandmother washed the priest's vestments, and my father was an altar boy. I too have come from a long line of catholics.



...we need to have rules about PUI...


----------



## Banjo

EMC...

Welcome to the forum....


----------



## Big7

EMC-GUN said:


> The Pope is blessing Mary's statue with incense. People bow to, pray to and even kiss her statue. The are expecting Mary to "inspire" them somehow, rather than Christ. To a Protestant, that is blasphemous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually if you follow the bible as a Christian (follower of Christ) this act is blasphemous regardless of denominational affiliation.



oh goodie - we got ANOTHER Ptotestant that knows
all about Catholics.

*BACK UP AND READ. AND NOT JUST THIS THREAD!*


----------



## PJason

EMC-GUN said:


> The bible is pretty clear about false idols and misdirected worship.



It is clear which is the Church is clear about these things too…



EMC-GUN said:


> I fear for some of the folks here. Truly I do..................



So do I



EMC-GUN said:


> Now for a little background if I may; I grew up in the north (yeah, yeah yankee I know) I was christened a catholic as an infant. A choice I had no say in, yet apparently it made everything alright with a few spoken Latin words and some dipping.



Me too I was born into and baptized in the largest Catholic Church in Missouri.



EMC-GUN said:


> As a youth I attended "Mass" pretty regularly, it then petered off to Christmas and Easter only (from what I saw in the local circle of catholics that were family friends this was a common thing).



I attended Mass weekly and sometimes daily with my family. I still do. 



EMC-GUN said:


> When I did attend regularly the only thing I could liken it to was a funeral. People with sour pusses and dressed in black. I never felt the love of Christ. Ever!



When I attended as a child and young adult I found people being reverent and respectful, with an understanding of why they were there. I felt the love Christ in the adoration the people gave to Him.



EMC-GUN said:


> The priest who was an Irish immigrant would drink his share of the communion wine before "mass"



I know quite a few Priest some “immigrants” some Americans all have personality flaws of course if perfection was a requirement to spread the Word of God this board would be blank.



EMC-GUN said:


> and would mumble in Latin in inaudible tones.



Though I grew up with the Norvus Ordo, I have come to learn and a love the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, however that does not change the fact that both forms unite us in Christ. Those inaudible prayers were not for your benefit they were prayers to Lord and for His glory alone not for your entertainment



EMC-GUN said:


> I learned a lot about Mary. I learned to pray to her (Wow! I know the bible condemns this type of thing). I also learned to light candles. (I still don't understand this one). I really just wanted to play with the matches



I learned about Jesus about His death on the cross and His glorious resurrection for my sins, I learned to love Him, I learned about the Mary, the Saints, the Pope, Church history and how it all pointed to Christ saying as His mother did “do as he tells you”



EMC-GUN said:


> Purgatory?!?!?! I have yet to find this in the bible. Sorry.



Why apologize?  Get a bigger Bible and keep reading.



EMC-GUN said:


> I have questioned many people on there faith and have found a good majority (about 9 out of 10) that claim to be atheists or agnostics have a history of Catholicism in there lives. They like me had become disenfranchised at some point in there lives.



I have had my feelings hurt by people in the Church too. I have had priests who were rude and hateful to me, parishners who backstabbed and told lies about me. The difference I guess is I just remembered that there will always be weeds among the wheat, and unlike breakfast cereal there are no all wheat churches.




EMC-GUN said:


> I heard the true Gospel as a young man and I thought it was the makings of a cult. All I knew was Mary, Pope, Priest, Rosary, and "mass". I now know the truth, and the truth has set me free!!!! PRAISE GOD!!!!!!!!!!



I heard the true Gospel as a young man, I heard it as an alter boy, as student at in Catholic school, I heard it the day I was married, I heard it the day my wife joined the Church, I heard it the day my daughter was baptized, I heard the day both my niece and nephew were baptized, I hear as I study for the deaconate , I hear it as I study to enter into the Lay Dominicans, I hear it every time I enter the Church, attend Mass, go to Confession, kneel in Eucharistic Adoration, say the Liturgy of the Hours, or say the Rosary. The True Gospel of the Lord roars in my ears like a Lion, even when it spoken as softly as a Lamb. At home in the Catholic Church I hear the True Gospel, I always have I always will.


----------



## Lil Sis

Ronnie T said:


> With all that Mary did as an obedient young lady and later on as the mother of Jesus, she was still only an unworthy person given an opportunity to serve God.  All God's children have that same opportunity today.
> Learn and look to the Lord Jesus Christ.
> Mary has nothing to offer, other than a good example.



Ronnie T, I think you have hit the nail on the head!  I think that what you have said is at the essence of the disagreement between Protestants and Catholics about Mary.  And although I appreciate your perspective on this and your right to hold it, I'd like to offer you and the others reading here an explanation, so that even if you cannot agree with the Catholic point of view, you can at least understand it and know that it is not based in idolatry (which is a grievous sin and a violation of the Commandment to have no other gods). 

From what I read in your post, and what I have heard other Protestants say from time to time (and please correct me if I am wrong, because I do not assume to fully understand what you believe), Mary is like every other human, no better than you or me, sinner just the same, could have been any other housewife or even prostitute - she was just a "vessel."  If I've got that wrong, please let me know. 

Now, from the Catholic perspective, Mary is not like you and me.  That is NOT to say that she IS like Jesus, either, though.  Jesus is God.  Mary is NOT God.  Anyone who tells you that Catholics think she is God (even Catholics) just do not fully understand our teaching.  And, yes, it is possible for Catholics to practice things that are not part of our teaching, just as easily as it is for Protestants to read the Bible and then sin - they should know better, but they don't. 

So if Mary is NOT like Jesus, and she is NOT like you and me, then what's the deal?  Catholics believe that Mary is very special because she was chosen by God to bear his Son, the Messiah, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  We believe that God did not choose her at random, but created her specifically for this purpose.  Now, think about that.  Does it seem logical that God would send his Word Made Flesh, his Son, the Redeemer of the World, and --- think about this --- HIMSELF INCARNATE ---- in the belly of a SINNER?  If Jesus is completely pure and holy (which I hope we can at least agree on that), then would God have sent him here in a place that was less than immaculately pure?  If it doesn't matter how Jesus got here - if he could have come from any old vessel, then why didn't God hatch him out of an egg or drop him down in a paper bag?  That sounds horrible doesn't it?  But that's exactly how Catholics think the Protestant descriptions of Mary being a "vessel" sound.  Horrible.  Disrespectful.  And blasphemous - not of Mary, but of JESUS!

This is why we believe that Mary was conceived immaculately - without sin.  She was created for the purpose of bearing the Savior.  Now, when you look at it that way, the belief is not so much an inflation of the person of Mary as it is an acknowledgement of the greatness and absolute purity of JESUS.  THAT is the Catholic teaching on the Immaculate Conception of Mary - not all the rest of this hogwash you hear from people who hate the Catholic Church. 

When the Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary, he told her that she was "full of grace."  FULL of Grace.  Not an old bag.  Not a vessel.  FULL of Grace.   Some translations say "highly favored" and "the Lord is with you."

Now if Mary is "highly favored" by God, shouldn't she be "highly favored" by us?  It is right there in the KJV - highly favored.   Not an old bag.  Not a vessel. 

Is there a difference between "highly favored" and "worshipped"?  YES!  Catholics do not worship Mary.  We believe a lot of things that Protestants do not believe and we are happy to tell you what they are.  We believe in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist.  We believe that we are saved by unmerited grace and that faith without works is dead.  We believe that the Bible AND Sacred Tradition make up the fullness of truth (not Bible only.)  We believe in the baptism of whole households, even infants.  We do NOT believe in the worshipping of Mary.  If we did, we would tell you. 

We believe that as a person who is "highly favored" by God (and Jesus, who is God) Mary is a powerful intercessor.  And you say, "why do you need an intercessor?  Jesus is the only mediator to God."  YES!  We agree!  It is ONLY through Jesus that we are saved and only God can answer our prayers!!!  So what's the deal with Mary?  When people say that we "pray to Mary" they are either mischaracterizing what is actually happening or they just don't know what they are doing.  When I call on Mary, I close my eyes and fold my hands and whisper, much in the same way that I speak to Jesus, so this can easily be misunderstood as "praying to Mary."  But I know that Mary can't answer my prayers!  ONLY GOD CAN ANSWER PRAYERS!!  What I am asking Mary to do is to pray for me TO JESUS! - to join me in my prayers.  This is called interceding in my prayers.  And Protestants say, "Why?  Why do you need Mary to pray for you?"  The same reason you ask people at your church to pray for you when you are sick or when you are hoping something will happen.  Sure, you can pray directly to Jesus - you don't need them to mediate.  But, having people join in your prayers makes them stronger, right?  And who do you ask to pray for you?   People that you think "know Christ."  Why?  Because somehow, you think they are "favored," and their prayers are stronger.   Well, who "knows Christ" better than his own mother?  Who does the Bible say is "highly favored"?  It's Mary!  We ask her to join us in our prayers and we honor her because God honored her with the privilege of bearing His Son.  

Now, about the statues.  This gets pretty ridiculous.  Do you know that the cross is not God?  Do you know that the Bible is not God?   Do you worship these things?  Because it sometimes looks like you do.  You wear the cross around your neck.  You raise your hands up and sing in front of it.  You put your hand on top of the Bible and pray on it.  Sometimes you hug it.  WHAT???  Believe me, we know that the statues are just works of sculpture.  Now, there's a vessel.  Worthless, except in the way it REMINDS us of the greatness of God's holy people.  In the same way that we have HUGE marble buildings in Washington DC with statues larger than life of Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Jefferson - so we won't forget who they are and how important they were in our becoming who we are as a nation, we memorialize the saints, including Mary, with statues in our homes.  And in the same way that people line up and peer thoughtfully and reflectively at Tom and Abe, we look at the statues to remind us of the great examples of people who lived their lives for Christ.  We don't worship the statues. 

Now, here is the deal on Mary as the Mother of God.  It is NOT part of the Catholic teaching, that Mary existed before God or that she had any hand in creating God.  NOT our teaching.  Obviously, Mary could not have existed before God --- God is a diety and Mary is one of his creatures.  So Mary did not exist before God and did not create God.  But God CHOSE Mary to bear his Son, who is God.  Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, so Mary is the Mother of God.  To say that Mary is not the Mother of God is to deny the divinity of Jesus.  If Jesus and God are the same - if they are eternally one - and Mary is the Mother of Jesus (which no one denies - it is right there in the Bible) - then Mary became the Mother of God when he chose her.  Not in the beginning, but when God chose her to assist him in his Incarnation.    Does that in anyway imply that she "outranks" God?  NO!  Does the President's mother outrank him?

We can agree that this concept is hard to get your head around.  How can Mary be God's mother if she was not there before him?  Well, how can God be Jesus' father if he is Jesus?  How can Jesus be his own father?  He just IS!!  We don't have to understand it - we just believe it. 

Now, on the Rosary.  Mary appeared to three little shepherd children in Fatima, Portugal in 1917 and told them how to pray the Rosary and told them that she would help (by praying for them - that's all she can do) anyone who prays the Rosary.  You may not believe that Mary makes appearances, but I don't know why not - there are plenty of people who made appearances documented in the Bible - angels, prophets, etc.  No reason the one who is "highly favored" can't make an appearance.  I report, you decide.   You can read the stories of the many appearances of Mary here: http://www.apparitions.org/

The Rosary is a devotion to Mary - that is why she is the subject of it.  That's why she is named often in it.  There are lots of other devotions that have no mention of Mary at all, but this is her devotion.  Being devoted is NOT the same a worshipping.  I am devoted to my husband and my children.  To my mom and dad, brother and sister.  I am devoted to my work.  I am devoted to the Georgia Bulldogs.  I like to play a little golf and do a little fishing. They are all in their proper places, along with Mary, BEHIND GOD.  The Commandment is to have nothing else BEFORE GOD.  You can love and be devoted to other things as long as they are in their proper place.   I would be much more concerned about the way people in our society worship money and celebrity than I would be about the way Catholics are devoted to Mary. 

Thank you for taking the time to read this post.  I appreciate all of you who are asking honest questions and I hope my answer is helpful to you in understanding the Catholic teaching, whether you can agree with it or not. 

Blessings to all!

Lil Sis

P.S.  Catholics read the Bible.


----------



## Big7




----------



## Big7

EMC-GUN said:


> The Pope is blessing Mary's statue with incense. People bow to, pray to and even kiss her statue. The are expecting Mary to "inspire" them somehow, rather than Christ. To a Protestant, that is blasphemous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually if you follow the bible as a Christian (follower of Christ) this act is blasphemous regardless of denominational affiliation.



Actually if you follow the bible as a Christian you would find
blasphemous "that there be no schisms among you"

God, Who is absolute truth (Council of the Vatican). They represent the mind of Christ as St. Paul says: 

1 Cor. 2:16. But we have the mind of Christ. 
Hebrews 13:8. Jesus Christ yesterday, and today: and the same for ever. 

Since Our Catholic Faith comes from God, they are not open for debate, and they are not reversible. 

The Christian is called to adhere to Christ and His teaching integrally; the unity of faith is the dominant motif of divine revelation on which St. Paul insists energetically, when he writes: 

1 Cor. 1:10. I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you: but that you be perfect in mind and in the same judgement. 

There is, then, no place for "pick and choose" in the truths proposed to the Faith of Christians by the Infallible Teaching Church for they are bound in Heaven by God Himself. If something is decreed on earth and is also bound in Heaven, that thing must be the truth. Otherwise, God is no longer the Truth, which is contrary to the Gospel: 

Matthew 16:19. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in Heaven. 

Talk about blasphemous


----------



## PJason

EMC-GUN said:


> The Pope is blessing Mary's statue with incense. People bow to, pray to and even kiss her statue. The are expecting Mary to "inspire" them somehow, rather than Christ. To a Protestant, that is blasphemous.



Where does it say rather then Christ, anywhere?


----------



## PJason

PWalls said:


> Not without a better understanding of "Adoration, Veneration, Worship, and Prayer".




Adoration
The acknowledgement of God as God, Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists. Through worship and prayer, the Church and individual persons give to God the adoration which is the first act of the virtue of religion. The first commandment of the law obliges us to adore God. 


Veneration (of the Saints)
Showing devotion and respect to Mary, the Apostles, and the martyrs, who were viewed as faithful witnesses to faith in Jesus Christ. Later, veneration was given to those who led a life of prayer and self-denial in giving witness to Christ, whose virtues were recognized and publicly proclaimed in their canonization as saints. Such veneration is often extended to the relics or remains of those recognized as saints; indeed, to many sacred objects and images. Veneration must be clearly distinguished from adoration and worship which are due to God alone.

Worship
Adoration and honor given to God, which is the first act of virtue of religion. Public worship is given to God in the Church by the celebration of the Paschal Mystery of Christ in the liturgy.

Prayer
The elevation of the mind and heart to God in praise of his glory; a petition made to God for some desired good, or in thanksgiving for a good received, or in intercession for others before God. Through prayer the Christian experiences a communion with God through Christ in the Church.


And for Lil Sis

Intercession
A form of prayer of petition on behalf of others. The prayer of intercession leads us to pray as Christ, our unique Intercessor, prayed.


----------



## Jeffriesw

Lil Sis said:


> Ronnie T, I think you have hit the nail on the head!  I think that what you have said is at the essence of the disagreement between Protestants and Catholics about Mary.  And although I appreciate your perspective on this and your right to hold it, I'd like to offer you and the others reading here an explanation, so that even if you cannot agree with the Catholic point of view, you can at least understand it and know that it is not based in idolatry (which is a grievous sin and a violation of the Commandment to have no other gods).
> 
> From what I read in your post, and what I have heard other Protestants say from time to time (and please correct me if I am wrong, because I do not assume to fully understand what you believe), Mary is like every other human, no better than you or me, sinner just the same, could have been any other housewife or even prostitute - she was just a "vessel."  If I've got that wrong, please let me know.
> 
> Now, from the Catholic perspective, Mary is not like you and me.  That is NOT to say that she IS like Jesus, either, though.  Jesus is God.  Mary is NOT God.  Anyone who tells you that Catholics think she is God (even Catholics) just do not fully understand our teaching.  And, yes, it is possible for Catholics to practice things that are not part of our teaching, just as easily as it is for Protestants to read the Bible and then sin - they should know better, but they don't.
> 
> So if Mary is NOT like Jesus, and she is NOT like you and me, then what's the deal?  Catholics believe that Mary is very special because she was chosen by God to bear his Son, the Messiah, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  We believe that God did not choose her at random, but created her specifically for this purpose.  Now, think about that.  Does it seem logical that God would send his Word Made Flesh, his Son, the Redeemer of the World, and --- think about this --- HIMSELF INCARNATE ---- in the belly of a SINNER?  If Jesus is completely pure and holy (which I hope we can at least agree on that), then would God have sent him here in a place that was less than immaculately pure?  If it doesn't matter how Jesus got here - if he could have come from any old vessel, then why didn't God hatch him out of an egg or drop him down in a paper bag?  That sounds horrible doesn't it?  But that's exactly how Catholics think the Protestant descriptions of Mary being a "vessel" sound.  Horrible.  Disrespectful.  And blasphemous - not of Mary, but of JESUS!
> 
> This is why we believe that Mary was conceived immaculately - without sin.  She was created for the purpose of bearing the Savior.  Now, when you look at it that way, the belief is not so much an inflation of the person of Mary as it is an acknowledgement of the greatness and absolute purity of JESUS.  THAT is the Catholic teaching on the Immaculate Conception of Mary - not all the rest of this hogwash you hear from people who hate the Catholic Church.
> 
> When the Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary, he told her that she was "full of grace."  FULL of Grace.  Not an old bag.  Not a vessel.  FULL of Grace.   Some translations say "highly favored" and "the Lord is with you."
> 
> Now if Mary is "highly favored" by God, shouldn't she be "highly favored" by us?  It is right there in the KJV - highly favored.   Not an old bag.  Not a vessel.
> 
> Is there a difference between "highly favored" and "worshipped"?  YES!  Catholics do not worship Mary.  We believe a lot of things that Protestants do not believe and we are happy to tell you what they are.  We believe in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist.  We believe that we are saved by unmerited grace and that faith without works is dead.  We believe that the Bible AND Sacred Tradition make up the fullness of truth (not Bible only.)  We believe in the baptism of whole households, even infants.  We do NOT believe in the worshipping of Mary.  If we did, we would tell you.
> 
> We believe that as a person who is "highly favored" by God (and Jesus, who is God) Mary is a powerful intercessor.  And you say, "why do you need an intercessor?  Jesus is the only mediator to God."  YES!  We agree!  It is ONLY through Jesus that we are saved and only God can answer our prayers!!!  So what's the deal with Mary?  When people say that we "pray to Mary" they are either mischaracterizing what is actually happening or they just don't know what they are doing.  When I call on Mary, I close my eyes and fold my hands and whisper, much in the same way that I speak to Jesus, so this can easily be misunderstood as "praying to Mary."  But I know that Mary can't answer my prayers!  ONLY GOD CAN ANSWER PRAYERS!!  What I am asking Mary to do is to pray for me TO JESUS! - to join me in my prayers.  This is called interceding in my prayers.  And Protestants say, "Why?  Why do you need Mary to pray for you?"  The same reason you ask people at your church to pray for you when you are sick or when you are hoping something will happen.  Sure, you can pray directly to Jesus - you don't need them to mediate.  But, having people join in your prayers makes them stronger, right?  And who do you ask to pray for you?   People that you think "know Christ."  Why?  Because somehow, you think they are "favored," and their prayers are stronger.   Well, who "knows Christ" better than his own mother?  Who does the Bible say is "highly favored"?  It's Mary!  We ask her to join us in our prayers and we honor her because God honored her with the privilege of bearing His Son.
> 
> Now, about the statues.  This gets pretty ridiculous.  Do you know that the cross is not God?  Do you know that the Bible is not God?   Do you worship these things?  Because it sometimes looks like you do.  You wear the cross around your neck.  You raise your hands up and sing in front of it.  You put your hand on top of the Bible and pray on it.  Sometimes you hug it.  WHAT???  Believe me, we know that the statues are just works of sculpture.  Now, there's a vessel.  Worthless, except in the way it REMINDS us of the greatness of God's holy people.  In the same way that we have HUGE marble buildings in Washington DC with statues larger than life of Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Jefferson - so we won't forget who they are and how important they were in our becoming who we are as a nation, we memorialize the saints, including Mary, with statues in our homes.  And in the same way that people line up and peer thoughtfully and reflectively at Tom and Abe, we look at the statues to remind us of the great examples of people who lived their lives for Christ.  We don't worship the statues.
> 
> Now, here is the deal on Mary as the Mother of God.  It is NOT part of the Catholic teaching, that Mary existed before God or that she had any hand in creating God.  NOT our teaching.  Obviously, Mary could not have existed before God --- God is a diety and Mary is one of his creatures.  So Mary did not exist before God and did not create God.  But God CHOSE Mary to bear his Son, who is God.  Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, so Mary is the Mother of God.  To say that Mary is not the Mother of God is to deny the divinity of Jesus.  If Jesus and God are the same - if they are eternally one - and Mary is the Mother of Jesus (which no one denies - it is right there in the Bible) - then Mary became the Mother of God when he chose her.  Not in the beginning, but when God chose her to assist him in his Incarnation.    Does that in anyway imply that she "outranks" God?  NO!  Does the President's mother outrank him?
> 
> We can agree that this concept is hard to get your head around.  How can Mary be God's mother if she was not there before him?  Well, how can God be Jesus' father if he is Jesus?  How can Jesus be his own father?  He just IS!!  We don't have to understand it - we just believe it.
> 
> Now, on the Rosary.  Mary appeared to three little shepherd children in Fatima, Portugal in 1917 and told them how to pray the Rosary and told them that she would help (by praying for them - that's all she can do) anyone who prays the Rosary.  You may not believe that Mary makes appearances, but I don't know why not - there are plenty of people who made appearances documented in the Bible - angels, prophets, etc.  No reason the one who is "highly favored" can't make an appearance.  I report, you decide.   You can read the stories of the many appearances of Mary here: http://www.apparitions.org/
> 
> The Rosary is a devotion to Mary - that is why she is the subject of it.  That's why she is named often in it.  There are lots of other devotions that have no mention of Mary at all, but this is her devotion.  Being devoted is NOT the same a worshipping.  I am devoted to my husband and my children.  To my mom and dad, brother and sister.  I am devoted to my work.  I am devoted to the Georgia Bulldogs.  I like to play a little golf and do a little fishing. They are all in their proper places, along with Mary, BEHIND GOD.  The Commandment is to have nothing else BEFORE GOD.  You can love and be devoted to other things as long as they are in their proper place.   I would be much more concerned about the way people in our society worship money and celebrity than I would be about the way Catholics are devoted to Mary.
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to read this post.  I appreciate all of you who are asking honest questions and I hope my answer is helpful to you in understanding the Catholic teaching, whether you can agree with it or not.
> 
> Blessings to all!
> 
> Lil Sis
> 
> P.S.  Catholics read the Bible.






Great Explanation, Thanks!


----------



## Ronnie T

Lil Sis said:


> Ronnie T, I think you have hit the nail on the head!  I think that what you have said is at the essence of the disagreement between Protestants and Catholics about Mary.  And although I appreciate your perspective on this and your right to hold it, I'd like to offer you and the others reading here an explanation, so that even if you cannot agree with the Catholic point of view, you can at least understand it and know that it is not based in idolatry (which is a grievous sin and a violation of the Commandment to have no other gods).
> 
> From what I read in your post, and what I have heard other Protestants say from time to time (and please correct me if I am wrong, because I do not assume to fully understand what you believe), Mary is like every other human, no better than you or me, sinner just the same, could have been any other housewife or even prostitute - she was just a "vessel."  If I've got that wrong, please let me know.
> 
> Now, from the Catholic perspective, Mary is not like you and me.  That is NOT to say that she IS like Jesus, either, though.  Jesus is God.  Mary is NOT God.  Anyone who tells you that Catholics think she is God (even Catholics) just do not fully understand our teaching.  And, yes, it is possible for Catholics to practice things that are not part of our teaching, just as easily as it is for Protestants to read the Bible and then sin - they should know better, but they don't.
> 
> So if Mary is NOT like Jesus, and she is NOT like you and me, then what's the deal?  Catholics believe that Mary is very special because she was chosen by God to bear his Son, the Messiah, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  We believe that God did not choose her at random, but created her specifically for this purpose.  Now, think about that.  Does it seem logical that God would send his Word Made Flesh, his Son, the Redeemer of the World, and --- think about this --- HIMSELF INCARNATE ---- in the belly of a SINNER?  If Jesus is completely pure and holy (which I hope we can at least agree on that), then would God have sent him here in a place that was less than immaculately pure?  If it doesn't matter how Jesus got here - if he could have come from any old vessel, then why didn't God hatch him out of an egg or drop him down in a paper bag?  That sounds horrible doesn't it?  But that's exactly how Catholics think the Protestant descriptions of Mary being a "vessel" sound.  Horrible.  Disrespectful.  And blasphemous - not of Mary, but of JESUS!
> 
> This is why we believe that Mary was conceived immaculately - without sin.  She was created for the purpose of bearing the Savior.  Now, when you look at it that way, the belief is not so much an inflation of the person of Mary as it is an acknowledgement of the greatness and absolute purity of JESUS.  THAT is the Catholic teaching on the Immaculate Conception of Mary - not all the rest of this hogwash you hear from people who hate the Catholic Church.
> 
> When the Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary, he told her that she was "full of grace."  FULL of Grace.  Not an old bag.  Not a vessel.  FULL of Grace.   Some translations say "highly favored" and "the Lord is with you."
> 
> Now if Mary is "highly favored" by God, shouldn't she be "highly favored" by us?  It is right there in the KJV - highly favored.   Not an old bag.  Not a vessel.
> 
> Is there a difference between "highly favored" and "worshipped"?  YES!  Catholics do not worship Mary.  We believe a lot of things that Protestants do not believe and we are happy to tell you what they are.  We believe in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist.  We believe that we are saved by unmerited grace and that faith without works is dead.  We believe that the Bible AND Sacred Tradition make up the fullness of truth (not Bible only.)  We believe in the baptism of whole households, even infants.  We do NOT believe in the worshipping of Mary.  If we did, we would tell you.
> 
> We believe that as a person who is "highly favored" by God (and Jesus, who is God) Mary is a powerful intercessor.  And you say, "why do you need an intercessor?  Jesus is the only mediator to God."  YES!  We agree!  It is ONLY through Jesus that we are saved and only God can answer our prayers!!!  So what's the deal with Mary?  When people say that we "pray to Mary" they are either mischaracterizing what is actually happening or they just don't know what they are doing.  When I call on Mary, I close my eyes and fold my hands and whisper, much in the same way that I speak to Jesus, so this can easily be misunderstood as "praying to Mary."  But I know that Mary can't answer my prayers!  ONLY GOD CAN ANSWER PRAYERS!!  What I am asking Mary to do is to pray for me TO JESUS! - to join me in my prayers.  This is called interceding in my prayers.  And Protestants say, "Why?  Why do you need Mary to pray for you?"  The same reason you ask people at your church to pray for you when you are sick or when you are hoping something will happen.  Sure, you can pray directly to Jesus - you don't need them to mediate.  But, having people join in your prayers makes them stronger, right?  And who do you ask to pray for you?   People that you think "know Christ."  Why?  Because somehow, you think they are "favored," and their prayers are stronger.   Well, who "knows Christ" better than his own mother?  Who does the Bible say is "highly favored"?  It's Mary!  We ask her to join us in our prayers and we honor her because God honored her with the privilege of bearing His Son.
> 
> Now, about the statues.  This gets pretty ridiculous.  Do you know that the cross is not God?  Do you know that the Bible is not God?   Do you worship these things?  Because it sometimes looks like you do.  You wear the cross around your neck.  You raise your hands up and sing in front of it.  You put your hand on top of the Bible and pray on it.  Sometimes you hug it.  WHAT???  Believe me, we know that the statues are just works of sculpture.  Now, there's a vessel.  Worthless, except in the way it REMINDS us of the greatness of God's holy people.  In the same way that we have HUGE marble buildings in Washington DC with statues larger than life of Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Jefferson - so we won't forget who they are and how important they were in our becoming who we are as a nation, we memorialize the saints, including Mary, with statues in our homes.  And in the same way that people line up and peer thoughtfully and reflectively at Tom and Abe, we look at the statues to remind us of the great examples of people who lived their lives for Christ.  We don't worship the statues.
> 
> Now, here is the deal on Mary as the Mother of God.  It is NOT part of the Catholic teaching, that Mary existed before God or that she had any hand in creating God.  NOT our teaching.  Obviously, Mary could not have existed before God --- God is a diety and Mary is one of his creatures.  So Mary did not exist before God and did not create God.  But God CHOSE Mary to bear his Son, who is God.  Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, so Mary is the Mother of God.  To say that Mary is not the Mother of God is to deny the divinity of Jesus.  If Jesus and God are the same - if they are eternally one - and Mary is the Mother of Jesus (which no one denies - it is right there in the Bible) - then Mary became the Mother of God when he chose her.  Not in the beginning, but when God chose her to assist him in his Incarnation.    Does that in anyway imply that she "outranks" God?  NO!  Does the President's mother outrank him?
> 
> We can agree that this concept is hard to get your head around.  How can Mary be God's mother if she was not there before him?  Well, how can God be Jesus' father if he is Jesus?  How can Jesus be his own father?  He just IS!!  We don't have to understand it - we just believe it.
> 
> Now, on the Rosary.  Mary appeared to three little shepherd children in Fatima, Portugal in 1917 and told them how to pray the Rosary and told them that she would help (by praying for them - that's all she can do) anyone who prays the Rosary.  You may not believe that Mary makes appearances, but I don't know why not - there are plenty of people who made appearances documented in the Bible - angels, prophets, etc.  No reason the one who is "highly favored" can't make an appearance.  I report, you decide.   You can read the stories of the many appearances of Mary here: http://www.apparitions.org/
> 
> The Rosary is a devotion to Mary - that is why she is the subject of it.  That's why she is named often in it.  There are lots of other devotions that have no mention of Mary at all, but this is her devotion.  Being devoted is NOT the same a worshipping.  I am devoted to my husband and my children.  To my mom and dad, brother and sister.  I am devoted to my work.  I am devoted to the Georgia Bulldogs.  I like to play a little golf and do a little fishing. They are all in their proper places, along with Mary, BEHIND GOD.  The Commandment is to have nothing else BEFORE GOD.  You can love and be devoted to other things as long as they are in their proper place.   I would be much more concerned about the way people in our society worship money and celebrity than I would be about the way Catholics are devoted to Mary.
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to read this post.  I appreciate all of you who are asking honest questions and I hope my answer is helpful to you in understanding the Catholic teaching, whether you can agree with it or not.
> 
> Blessings to all!
> 
> Lil Sis
> 
> P.S.  Catholics read the Bible.





Lil Sis, I appreciate you spending the time to write all of the above.
You are right and I suspect we will never have agreement on these issues.  You obviously have your reasons for being convicted into placing great faith in each of them.  I on the other hand could never allow myself to believe something of that magnitude that is not specifically detailed in the Gospel of Jesus.
I place very little value, if any, in traditions.  For me, a tradition can only be considered inspired if I can find very clear evidence of it in the Gospel.  The apostle John, among others, warned that many false teaching would come to the church.  In 1John 4 John says there is a way to be safe in my beliefs.  In verse 6 John said those who know God listen to the apostles, those of the world do not.
Because of that verse and verses just like that, I will never be able to place much value in anything that leads me from those very early teachings that I know were inspired by God.
I don't believe the Gospel of Christ is complicated.  I don't believe anyone should have to turn a single verse upside down or inside out in order to agree with it.  I believe the Gospel for what it is and what it says and I believe I can serve and worship God with it alone.
You look at discipleship from a different point of view.
Many would say that I don't have the faith to "step-out" in my beliefs.
I say that my faith is strong enough that I don't need anything else.

When all is said and done, we must simply leave it to God.

Have a great Lord's day.


----------



## farmasis

I am unaware that saints can even hear our prayers. Where does this come from? Can we validate it with scripture?

I know Catholics use Revelation 5:8, but we do not know what those prayers are. Catholics assume that they are prayers that they recieved from mortals. Why can't it be their own prayers?

I cherish the cross, I cherish the Bible, but I do not pray through them. I appreciate the apostles, but send my petitions directly to Jesus.

Prayer of Hope
<SMALL><SMALL>by St. Alphonsus Liguori</SMALL></SMALL>

....I venerate thee, great Queen, and I thank thee for the many graces thou hast bestowed upon me even unto this day; in particular for having delivered me from the He l l 
..I promise to serve thee willingly for ever and to do what I can to make thee loved by others also. I place in thee all my hopes for salvation
...And since thou art so powerful with God, deliver me from all temptations, or at least obtain for me the strength to overcome them until death. 

Prayer of Confidence
<BIG><BIG><SMALL><SMALL>by St. Alphonsus Liguori
</SMALL></SMALL></BIG></BIG>...For the love of Jesus, take charge of my salvation. 
...But the merits of this blood will not be applied to me unless thou recommendest me to God. 
...Is it possible that thou wilt not hear me? No; for already thou hast granted my prayer, as I hope

Prayer of Refuge
<BIG><BIG><SMALL><SMALL>by St. Alphonsus Liguori
...Mary, behold at thy feet a miserable sinner, who asks thee for mercy.</SMALL></SMALL></BIG></BIG>
<BIG><BIG><SMALL><SMALL>...Thou art consequently my refuge; thou hast to save me. </SMALL></SMALL></BIG></BIG>
<BIG><BIG><SMALL><SMALL>...Console, then, thy compassionate heart, and console me this day; for now thou hast the opportunity of saving a poor creature condemned to He l l</SMALL></SMALL></BIG></BIG>
...Through thee do I hope for salvation.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/mary8.htm

This is what Protestants see when you exalt a human woman to the point that she is a refuge of sinners, a deliverer from He l l, a hope for salvation, someone in charge of salvation, a savior from he l l, a deliverer from temptations, a hope for salvation, and the source of strength to overcome such things.


----------



## Banjo

> Now, on the Rosary. Mary appeared to three little shepherd children in Fatima, Portugal in 1917 and told them how to pray the Rosary and told them that she would help (by praying for them - that's all she can do) anyone who prays the Rosary. You may not believe that Mary makes appearances, but I don't know why not - there are plenty of people who made appearances documented in the Bible - angels, prophets, etc. No reason the one who is "highly favored" can't make an appearance. I report, you decide. You can read the stories of the many appearances of Mary here: http://www.apparitions.org/



We should not expect new revelation.  The entire RC church is willing to pray the Rosary simply because three little shepherd children told them they talked to Mary???  

Deut. 4:2, "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

Deut. 12:32, "What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it."

Prov. 30:6, " Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."

Rev. 22:18-19, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."


----------



## Big7

Ronnie T said:


> With all that Mary did as an obedient young lady and later on as the mother of Jesus, she was still only an unworthy person given an opportunity to serve God.  All God's children have that same opportunity today.
> Learn and look to the Lord Jesus Christ.
> Mary has nothing to offer, other than a good example.



Ronny - Go back and read your post real.. s l o w l y

The only part you got right was the "a good example"
part - not to be confused with the "nothing to offer, other than a good example".

If you believe that you are waaayyyy out there.

Do you really believe Mary "only an unworthy person given an opportunity to serve God. "?
How about giving earthly birth to God! 

Yall crack me up. If it was not SO VERY SERIOUS -
it would be funny

Opportunity today: to give birth to God - the second part 
of the Trinity? You know - The Father, The Son and the Holy Sprit. Ok,. Holy Ghost!

Must be some real good grape juice 

Come on now!


----------



## Ronnie T

Big7 said:


> Ronny - Go back and read your post real.. s l o w l y
> 
> The only part you got right was the "a good example"
> part - not to be confused with the "nothing to offer, other than a good example".
> 
> If you believe that you are waaayyyy out there.
> 
> Do you really believe Mary "only an unworthy person given an opportunity to serve God. "?
> 
> *Yes I do, but I only base that believe on God's inspired word.  That doesn't mean she doesn't deserve my respect.  She is not an important part of my life now.  If she was to be, the apostles would have been inspired to inform me of her purpose in Christ's church.*
> 
> 
> How about giving earthly birth to God!
> 
> *Mary only did what God was able to accomplish thru her.*
> 
> Yall crack me up. If it was not SO VERY SERIOUS -
> it would be funny
> 
> *You're right, it isn't funny.*
> 
> *As I've said, I trust in the inspired Gospel, not inspired traditions.*
> 
> Opportunity today: to give birth to God - the second part
> of the Trinity? You know - The Father, The Son and the Holy Sprit. Ok,. Holy Ghost!
> 
> *Mary carried and gave birth to the infant, earth dwelling Jesus, not to the Almighty God.  Don't get carried away.*
> 
> Must be some real good grape juice
> 
> Come on now!



*Your sarcasm doesn't diminish the fact that you are basing an awful lot on traditions of men who had no direct inspiration from God.  That is, in my humble opinion.

How do my humble opinion and your audacious opinion compare?*

*Which of the apostles ever taught the importance of Mary to our Christian lives?  Which of Jesus' teachings  lead us to place any divine nature to Mary?
Satan would love for me to spend time thinking and praying to/thru Mary rather than Jesus Christ.  I'm not.  
You need to do what your conscience leads you to do.  You should place reverence where you wish to.  But don't speak down to me or anyone else because I trust, and depend, and pray thru/to Jesus Christ only and no one else.*

*Notice, no rolling eyes or anything.*


----------



## Lil Sis

Banjo said:


> We should not expect new revelation.  The entire RC church is willing to pray the Rosary simply because three little shepherd children told them they talked to Mary???
> 
> Deut. 4:2, "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."
> 
> Deut. 12:32, "What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it."
> 
> Prov. 30:6, " Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."
> 
> Rev. 22:18-19, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."



Banjo, I like your bird.  Very pretty picture. 

Look, I have no expectation at all that you will agree with anything that I have to offer.  It's OK.  You are free to believe whatever you want.  I'm just explaining what Catholics ACTUALLY believe instead of what some people on this forum THINK we believe.  

We do believe in numerouse apparitions of Mary, and Fatima is one of them.  There was another at Guadalupe, Lourdes, etc.  We also believe that Jesus has made a few appearances, starting with his revelation to Paul on the road to Damascus and more recently to a nun named Faustina in Poland.  

It's not just because a few shepherd children claim to have seen her.  The church does not accept every reported apparition (remember the lady in Conyers in the 90's?  Not accepted by the Church).  I'm not going to spend time explaining all the things that happened at Fatima that convinced the church that this appearance and some others are real.  You can look that up on line and read all about it. 

But I do have a question for you.  I will assume that you do believe that Jesus appeared to the Apostles after the Resurection and to Paul after his Ascencion into Heaven (it is the basis for Paul's knowledge that allowed him to write his letters with authority and to proclaim himself an apostle.)  I think we can agree that the Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and then to Joseph - we can read about that in Luke.  An angel came to the cell where Peter was imprisoned and freed him.  Moses and Elijah appeared to Peter, James and John at the Transfiguration in the Gospels of Matthew and Mark.  God appeared to Moses as the Burning Bush.  All of these things are in the Bible.

So, is the end of the Bible - an inspired narrative that was completed at least 1700 years ago - the end of the story of Jesus and the journey of his people through salvation history?  Are we in some kind of silent period where no one reveals anything else to us until Jesus comes again?    If so, then this is the longest period of time that God has been quiet.   Is it not possible that God is still sending his holy messengers into the world?

And here is another question.  You quote Deuteronomy and Proverbs - both from the Old Testament.  If we are not to add anything, then what is the New Testament?  Jesus had not been born until after Deuteronomy and Proverbs were written and adopted into the Jewish canon, so the New Testament was added later.  

You also quote Revelation, which was written by John.  If John says we are not to add anything to this particular book of his, then what about Matthew, Mark, Luke, John's own Gospel, Acts, all of Paul's letters, etc.?  

I think a better interpretation of what you are saying is that we are not to re-write what was written.  We are to pass it on verbatim, with nothing added or left out.  We are not to misquote it.    Just my opinion.

Even so, let's say you are correct in saying that nothing is to be added to or deleted from the Bible.  How do you justify the removal of the 7 books of the so-called Apocrypha that are included in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Jewish canon of Scripture used by Jesus and the Apostles?  If John, who was an Apostle and used the book himself, said not to remove anything, where did it go?

And regardless of all of that, the Rosary is not added to the Bible.  It is a series of prayers recalling the life of Jesus at the request of his highly favored mother - not part of the Bible.   If absolutely nothing else is ever to be written outside the Bible, then what about Guideposts and The Purpose Driven Life, The Prayer of Jabez, Chicken Soup for the Soul, etc.  Aren't these modern religious writings?    

Why is it so easy to accept a writing from a regular guy like Rick Warren, but to completely discount a devotion requested of us by Jesus' own mother, who is highly favored and blessed among women? 

I appreciate the chance to have this exchange with you.  It helps me think about things that I haven't thought of before.  I hope it is useful to you as well. 

Blessings!

Lil Sis


----------



## Lil Sis

Ronnie T said:


> * Which of Jesus' teachings  lead us to place any divine nature to Mary?
> Satan would love for me to spend time thinking and praying to/thru Mary rather than Jesus Christ.  I'm not.
> You need to do what your conscience leads you to do.  You should place reverence where you wish to.  But don't speak down to me or anyone else because I trust, and depend, and pray thru/to Jesus Christ only and no one else.*


*

Ronnie T, 

I can see you are very upset about this, and I would be, too, if the Catholic teaching on Mary were actually the way you think it is.  But it is not.  Please listen.  Please, please listen.  WE DO NOT PLACE A DIVINE NATURE ON MARY.    

Did you read my previous post?  I know it is long, but I took the time to write it because I want you to understand our teaching.  MARY IS NOT DIVINE.  She is a great and holy human woman who deserves our respect and admiration.  God highly favors her.  We should, too.  That's all. 

Are you saying that you have never prayed for anyone else and you have never asked anyone to pray for you?  If you are asking others to pray for you, then you are treating them EXACTLY the way we are treating Mary.  If you call that praying to/through them, then that is what you are doing.  We are asking Mary to pray with/for us, we are NOT praying through/to her. 

It is one thing for you to disagree with us on something we really do, and it is another thing for you to mischaracterize what we do and then say that Satan loves for us to do it.   

I will continue to patiently attempt to answer questions from anyone who wants to ask.  I appreciate that you think about these things and have these questions, but I do wish you would try a little harder to accept the answers, whether you agree with them or not. 

Blessings!

Lil Sis*


----------



## Ronnie T

Lil Sis said:


> Ronnie T,
> 
> I can see you are very upset about this, and I would be, too, if the Catholic teaching on Mary were actually the way you think it is.  But it is not.  Please listen.  Please, please listen.  WE DO NOT PLACE A DIVINE NATURE ON MARY.
> 
> Did you read my previous post?  I know it is long, but I took the time to write it because I want you to understand our teaching.  MARY IS NOT DIVINE.  She is a great and holy human woman who deserves our respect and admiration.  God highly favors her.  We should, too.  That's all.
> 
> Are you saying that you have never prayed for anyone else and you have never asked anyone to pray for you?  If you are asking others to pray for you, then you are treating them EXACTLY the way we are treating Mary.  If you call that praying to/through them, then that is what you are doing.  We are asking Mary to pray with/for us, we are NOT praying through/to her.
> 
> It is one thing for you to disagree with us on something we really do, and it is another thing for you to mischaracterize what we do and then say that Satan loves for us to do it.
> 
> I will continue to patiently attempt to answer questions from anyone who wants to ask.  I appreciate that you think about these things and have these questions, but I do wish you would try a little harder to accept the answers, whether you agree with them or not.
> 
> Blessings!
> 
> Lil Sis





Please don't think I'm upset with the discussion.  It's your big brother's crass writing style that kinda does me in.  To be honest with you, I pretty much ended my part of this discussion when I explained that I would never be able to accept church traditions as inspired unless they were set forth in the inspired Gospel of Jesus Christ.
And I would no more ask Mary to pray for me than I would ask Matthew to pray for me.  Neither Jesus nor the apostles taught us to do either.

To many of your beliefs and traditions simply are not biblical.  Therefore, I cannot accept them.  It would be better if we could confine this discussion to those things recorded in God's word.

God Bless
I gotta take these old bones to bed.


----------



## Lil Sis

Ronnie T said:


> Lil Sis, I appreciate you spending the time to write all of the above.
> You are right and I suspect we will never have agreement on these issues.  You obviously have your reasons for being convicted into placing great faith in each of them.  I on the other hand could never allow myself to believe something of that magnitude that is not specifically detailed in the Gospel of Jesus.
> I place very little value, if any, in traditions.  For me, a tradition can only be considered inspired if I can find very clear evidence of it in the Gospel.  The apostle John, among others, warned that many false teaching would come to the church.  In 1John 4 John says there is a way to be safe in my beliefs.  In verse 6 John said those who know God listen to the apostles, those of the world do not.
> Because of that verse and verses just like that, I will never be able to place much value in anything that leads me from those very early teachings that I know were inspired by God.
> I don't believe the Gospel of Christ is complicated.  I don't believe anyone should have to turn a single verse upside down or inside out in order to agree with it.  I believe the Gospel for what it is and what it says and I believe I can serve and worship God with it alone.
> You look at discipleship from a different point of view.
> Many would say that I don't have the faith to "step-out" in my beliefs.
> I say that my faith is strong enough that I don't need anything else.
> 
> When all is said and done, we must simply leave it to God.
> 
> Have a great Lord's day.



Please accept my apology, Ronnie T, I missed this before my last post.  I now see that you did read it and I thank you.  

So I have a question for you.  It is sort of like, which came first, the chicken or the egg?

You say that you trust entirely in the Bible.  I don't necessarily think that's bad, although I follow a different way of thinking.  The Bible is all good - we believe all of it, so it is a common ground for our discussion. 

But my question is this:  On what authority do you believe the Bible is true?  What I mean is, who told you it is true - who originally?  I know it is the inspired, inerrant, Word of God - I not suggesting that it isn't true.  I'm just asking you how you know that.  

Do you know it because of the Holy Spirit?  How do you know about the Holy Spirit - because it is in the Bible?  (chicken/egg) Do you know it because your pastor or your parents told you when you were little?  Who told them? 

At some point, someone took all the writings of the Apostles and St. Paul and everything else that was written about Jesus and said, "This one is true and this one isn't. "  We know there are writings that were not included in the Bible, such as the Gospel of Thomas and the other Gnostic works.  Why were they not included?  Who decided and how did they know?

I hope we can agree that the Bible, in the form we know it today, with the Old and New Testaments, has NOT existed from all eternity.  It did not come down from Heaven on a cloud or on the wings of a dove.  Someone made some decisions about it at some point. 

Whether you believe, as I do, that these decisions were made at the Council of Rome in the late 4th century and that this Council was a body of what is now known as The Roman Catholic Church, I hope you will agree that these decisions were made by someone based on something. 

So, just based on your own judgement, what was the decision based on?  It wasn't based on the Bible, because there was no Bible (chicken/egg).  It had to be based on some unwritten prior knowledge and belief about what was true.  In the Catholic Church, we call this Tradition.  

And so I would submit for you to consider, that the very Bible that you subscribe all authority to, only exists in light of Tradition.  And the Church had held this tradition and passed it down from the Apostles, to the bishops to new bishops and so on, for almost 400 years before anyone decided to make the Bible official.   

You said, "For me, a tradition can only be considered inspired if I can find very clear evidence of it in the Gospel."  But the historical reality is the opposite.  The people who gathered and authorized the Bible would more likely have said, "For me, a Gospel can only be considered inspired if I can find very clear evidence of it in the Tradition of the Church."

But don't take my word for it - I hope you will look it up and do some reading about the origin of the Bible on your own.  Let me know what you find. 

So where do we disagree?  Catholics just don't think that ALL of the tradition was written down.   And why?  Because many of these Traditions (such as our teachings on Mary) were fully accepted by all Christians at the time as Sacred Truth even before the Bible was officially adopted as a cannon.   And because the Bible itself denies it.  

So if we believed this about Mary already and we decided what went in the Bible, why didn't we just include something about Mary?  I really don't know - would have been a lot easier if they had done that, since the same authority (the Church) that teaches us to follow the Bible also teaches us to be devoted to Mary.  

If I had to guess, though, I would say it is because it just wasn't necessary.  In the same way that no one tells us that lunch time is noon, but we know it is, it should go without saying that the mother of the Savior is a person to be loved and respected.  The Ten Commandments say to honor your mother and father.  We know that Jesus honored her because he loved her - she was his mother, after all - and he would not have broken the Commandment.  And we know that God honored her by choosing her to bear his Son.  So why wouldn't we honor her?  It should go without saying. 

But here is something that we can agree on:  God loves us both as we struggle in our understanding of the truth and perservere in our faith as we know it.    It's not about you and me and whether we agree.  

Blessings to you, Ronnie T!

Lil Sis


----------



## Banjo

> Banjo, I like your bird. Very pretty picture.



Thanks!  



> (remember the lady in Conyers in the 90's? Not accepted by the Church)



I laughed when I saw this...Not only do I remember the lady in Conyers, but I used to get stuck in all the traffic.  I lived in between Conyers and Covington when all that hoopla was at its height.  You can't believe the number of people coming in on buses for that.



> So, is the end of the Bible - an inspired narrative that was completed at least 1700 years ago - the end of the story of Jesus and the journey of his people through salvation history? Are we in some kind of silent period where no one reveals anything else to us until Jesus comes again? If so, then this is the longest period of time that God has been quiet. Is it not possible that God is still sending his holy messengers into the world?



We now have God's complete, written revelation; it contains everything that the Lord wanted us to know for Godly living.  God is not sending his messengers into the world.  Just for your consideration, if God did in fact send a "holy messenger" today, would that "holy messenger" reveal things that were foreign to the Bible, or that contradicted it?  Praying to Mary (or any other dead saint) is never ONCE advocated in the Bible.  Why would you think it was God (through Mary) who told those children to pray the Rosary?  Can Satan not masquerade himself as an angel of light?  

Man can not add to God's Word, but surely you would agree that Christ can.  The Holy Spirit can as well, and did, when he inspired the writers of the New Testament to pen it.  The New Testament didn't exactly add to God's Word; it completed it.  For an understanding of why Protestants don't consider the Apocrypha part of the Bible, you can read here:

http://www.christiantruth.com/apocryphaintroduction.html

It is interesting that Jesus NEVER quoted from one Apocrypha book.  Had He even quoted from one, it would have validated it.



> Why is it so easy to accept a writing from a regular guy like Rick Warren, but to completely discount a devotion requested of us by Jesus' own mother, who is highly favored and blessed among women?



Trust me, I don't receive most of these modern writings, especially not Rick Warren or the like.  

You would have a hard time proving to me that "Mary" requested anything of those children.  Again, if it is in contradiction to the Bible, it is not from the Lord.  He doesn't change, and neither does His Word.


----------



## Banjo

Luke 11:27-28 

27While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed."

 28But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."

What do you think of verses like the above one straight from the mouth of our Lord?


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> Luke 11:27-28
> 
> 27While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed."
> 
> 28But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."
> 
> What do you think of verses like the above one straight from the mouth of our Lord?



I think it confirms exactly what we have been saying. Mary was not blessed simply because she gave birth to Jesus; she is called blessed because she hears the word of God and obeys it.


----------



## Banjo

> she is called blessed because she hears the word of God and obeys it.



O.k....so she is no more "blessed" than those (plural) who hear God's Word and obey....


----------



## rjcruiser

Lil Sis said:


> If absolutely nothing else is ever to be written outside the Bible, then what about Guideposts and The Purpose Driven Life, The Prayer of Jabez, Chicken Soup for the Soul, etc.  Aren't these modern religious writings?
> 
> Why is it so easy to accept a writing from a regular guy like Rick Warren, but to completely discount a devotion requested of us by Jesus' own mother, who is highly favored and blessed among women?





You've obviously not seen the posts on Rick Warren or some of the others.

But I'll add.  Sola Scriptura doesn't mean that you can't use books written today to suplement your Bible study.  However, what must occur is that those books do not add to scripture or try and give authority over scripture, but rather exalt scripture and point to it as the final authority.  If the book doesn't go hand in hand with what the scripture says, it isn't a book to be used.


----------



## Banjo

> However, what must occur is that those books do not add to scripture or try and give authority over scripture, but rather exalt scripture and point to it as the final authority. If the book doesn't go hand in hand with what the scripture says, it isn't a book to be used.



What he said....


----------



## Banjo

Galatians 1:6-12

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> Galatians 1:6-12
> 
> I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.



What says you are not the ones preaching another Gospel?

How are you to know what is a what is not authoritative?

How are you to know who is and who is not guided by the Holy Spirit?


----------



## farmasis

On the outside looking in, it sure does appear that Catholics attribute divine traits to Mary.

Can someone explain why man has given Mary those qualities (I say man, because I cannot back them up in my Bible.)?

Please see post #209.

Also would like to see scripture saying that past saints can hear our prayers.


----------



## crackerdave

I refuse to participate in any more threads that have the word "Catholic" in 'em --- whoops!


----------



## Lil Sis

Banjo said:


> What he said....





I get what you are saying, Banjo, and I understand why you are dedicated to it.  I also believe your dedication is admirable, given what I gather from your posts to be your understanding of the Church's teachings outside the Bible.  

If I thought any of the Church's teachings were COUNTER to the Bible, I would be the first to leave.  Catholics believe that Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are BOTH the inspired Word of God. Truth can't contradict Truth.  We now gain our modern understanding of Tradition based on reading the Bible.  And we gain our interpretation of the Bible based on the Sacred Tradition, which is the teachings from the Apostles that have been handed down through the Church.  They work in HARMONY - not in contradiction.  Just because something is not IN the Bible, does not mean that it is AGAINST the Bible.

For example, you won't find directly in the Bible, "Thou shalt be pleasant and civil on the Georgia Outdoor News Forum." in the Bible.  Yet, we can infer from other teachings that ARE in the Bible, such as "Love thy neighbor as thyself" that we are expected to be pleasant and civil in this forum (which I find you to be and hope you find the same in me) in order to present ourselves in a way that is pleasing the Christ.   If we don't believe that, then we would have to say the being pleasant and civil in this forum is unbiblical because it is NOT in the Bible.  

So, even though I don't see anywhere in the Bible, "Thou shalt be devoted to Mary (and the saints), follow her as an example of how to live your life in Christ and ask for her help in your prayers," I DO see in the Bible that she is "full of Grace," "blessed among women," "the mother of my Lord," "highly favored" and "the Lord is with [her]."  I do see that she told the people at the wedding at Cana, "Do as he (Jesus) commands." (This was Jesus' first public miracle - it look a lot of faith to believe he could turn the water to wine when she had never seen him perform a miracle before.  She was the one who encouraged others to have faith in him.).   I do see that she showed tremendous faith when she presented Jesus in the temple as an infant and when she found him preaching there as a boy.  I see that she mourned at the feet of Jesus at his crucifixion, by his side and faithful to him always, risking her own persecution by the Romans.  I see that she was with the Apostles (Acts 1:14) in the upper room at Pentecost when they were ALL (Acts 2:1)filled with the Holy Spirit, faithful to him even after he ascended into Heaven and was no longer with them physically.  No, the Bible is not silent on the goodness and holiness of Mary and her example to us in the ways to follow Christ.  In fact, unlike the other Apostles, Mary NEVER questioned or doubted Jesus.  She never betrayed him and was faithful to him ALWAYS.    

So our conclusion that she is great and holy and an example of faith in Christ to be held up and followed is not spelled out IN the Bible, but it is not COUNTER to the Bible.

Now, I have explained the Church's teaching on Mary before.  I'm not asking you to agree with our teaching, but I am asking you to understand what it really is and to let go of what you falsely believed it to be in the past.  The Church does NOT teach us to worship her, to place her equal to or above Christ, to seek our salvation through her, to expect her to answer our prayers.   These things are held exclusively to God.   Mary is not God and she does not share in God's divinity.  She is an extraordinarily good and holy person whose faith in Christ we should emulate.  This is the teaching of the Church. 

Do some people do the wrong things in spite of the Church's teachings?  Possibly - and if so, they are wrong.  But we don't know what is on people's hearts.  They can love, love, love Mary and be her biggest fans and we may think they take it too far, but it is not for us to judge (James 4:11-12).  Only God and they know what is in their hearts and where they place their love of Mary in relation to their love of Christ.  We can't see that, but we can make some common sense observations about it because the goodness of Mary ONLY comes FROM her role in the life of Christ.  By definition, she is secondary to Jesus.   The only reason to admire her is her faith in Christ and obedience to God.   If folks are following the teachings of the Church, then their love for Mary, no matter how ardent it may be, is second to their love for Christ.  God sees it and knows their hearts.

I'm going to take some time and give you some of the Biblical teaching on intercessory prayer (asking others to pray with/for us) and on whether those in heaven can hear our prayers and intercede for us.  I'll try to give you that a little later in the week, though, because I'm out of time right now. 

Thank you for your questions and for taking the time to read this post. 

Blessings to all!

Lil Sis


----------



## Lil Sis

farmasis said:


> On the outside looking in, it sure does appear that Catholics attribute divine traits to Mary.
> 
> Can someone explain why man has given Mary those qualities (I say man, because I cannot back them up in my Bible.)?
> 
> Please see post #209.
> 
> Also would like to see scripture saying that past saints can hear our prayers.




See post 227.


----------



## Banjo

> What says you are not the ones preaching another Gospel?
> 
> How are you to know what is a what is not authoritative?
> 
> How are you to know who is and who is not guided by the Holy Spirit?



You have to filter everything through the Bible.


----------



## Banjo

> If I thought any of the Church's teachings were COUNTER to the Bible, I would be the first to leave. Catholics believe that Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are BOTH the inspired Word of God. Truth can't contradict Truth. We now gain our modern understanding of Tradition based on reading the Bible. And we gain our interpretation of the Bible based on the Sacred Tradition, which is the teachings from the Apostles that have been handed down through the Church. They work in HARMONY - not in contradiction. Just because something is not IN the Bible, does not mean that it is AGAINST the Bible.



Lil Sis,

I enjoy dialoguing with you.  It is an example of how two people can disagree and yet still be entirely civil.  Thank you for that.  I am listing some of the teachings of the RC church with the dates they were instituted.  These, I can not substantiate through the Scriptures.  As a matter of fact, were I to put some effort into it, I think I could find Scripture contrary to these.  Yet, they are based on RC tradition....  For me, it is an easy choice, God's infallible Word vs. fallible men and their teaching...

I am sticking to God's infallible Word.  

Prayers for the dead.....300 A.D.
Making the sign of the cross....300 A.D.
Veneration of angels and dead saints, use of images....375 A.D.
Exaltation of Mary...."Mother of God".....431 A.D.
Purgatory....593 A.D.
Prayers directed to Mary, dead saints and angels...600 A.D.
Kissing the pope's foot....709 A.D.
Worship of the cross, images and relics....786 A.D.
Worship of St. Joseph....890 A.D.
Canonization of dead saints....995 A.D.
Celibacy of the priesthood....1079 A.D.
The Rosary....1090 A.D.  (The book I am referencing says this began with Peter the Hermit, not the children you mentioned...Not sure which one is correct.)
Sale of Indulgences....1190 A.D.
Transubstantiation...1215 A.D.
Auricular Confession of sins to a priest...1215 A.D.
Bible forbidden to laymen...1229 A.D.
Seven Sacraments...1439 A.D.
Ave Maria...1508 A.D.
Tradition declared of equal authority with the Bible...1545 A.D.
Apocryphal books added to Bible...1546 A.D.
Immaculate Conception of Mary...1854 A.D.
Infallibility of the Pope...1870 A.D.
Assumption of the Virgin Mary...1950 A.D.
Mary proclaimed "Mother of the Church"...1965


----------



## rjcruiser

Lil Sis said:


> In fact, unlike the other Apostles, Mary NEVER questioned or doubted Jesus.  She never betrayed him and was faithful to him ALWAYS.



How do you know this?  Because it never stated in the Bible that she questioned or doubted Jesus?

That is a dangerous mode of theology....to think that because something isn't said in the Bible, it is okay to infer it.  I don't think I've ever read in my Bible where people like Lydia or even Dorcas questioned God or betrayed Him, does that make them perfect as well?

Also, many things that the Catholic Church teaches about Mary are in direct conflict with the Bible.  Again, the fact that the Catholic church teaches she was without sin.  Impossible.  Rom 3:23 All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.  Look at the original text if you'd like.  All in this case means all mankind.  Everyone....including Mary.


This is what I love  The Catholic church specifically states that they do not worship Mary but only honor her with what honor is due her.  But then with the actions of the Church, they worship her.  Praying to...bowing down to...kissing pictures and statues of Mary is WORSHIP.


----------



## Banjo

"A whirlwind of memories came flooding through my mind when I saw the above illustration taken from My Catholic Faith. I was conditioned, at a very early age, to believe that I had to go through Mary to get to Jesus. I can remember kneeling and praying before her image, singing songs that praised Mary as "Queen of Heaven", and watching movies like "The Song of Bernadette" and "The Lady of Fatima".

This worship of Mary continued into my adulthood. I can remember when my first born son had a very high fever, I was so afraid he would die that I went begging Mary on hand and knee. I confessed she was the Mother of Jesus and, understanding what being a mother was all about, I cried, saying, "Please Mary, ask God to let my baby live". When my son lived, I truly worshipped Mary.

Yet for all these things, if a Christian confronts a Catholic on his/her worshipping of Mary, the reply is always the same: "We don't worship her! We just give her honor that is due her as the Mother of God." But is this true? I practiced Catholicism for 30 years and I can, from experience, tell you that we prayed to her, through her, by her and for her as taught by the Roman hierarchy.

Yet the Bible tells me:

that all things are "by him [Jesus], and for him" (Col.1:16), "...of him, and through him and to him" (Rom.11:36).
Acts 4:12 clearly states: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is NONE OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN GIVEN AMONG MEN, WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED." (Emphasis mine)
So why worship Mary? How did Jesus' offer to "Come to me..." (Jn.7:37) turn into "Go to Mary"? In the same book, "My Catholic Faith", on page 204 we read: "WHEN DOES A PERSON SIN BY SUPERSTITION? - A person sins by superstition when he attributes to a creature a power that belongs to God alone."

The rest of this article can be found at:

http://cuttingedge.org/articles/RC128.htm


----------



## farmasis

Lil Sis said:


> See post 227.


 
I am not trying to start a stink..and I know little about the Catholic faith and where some doctrines originate from. I still think of Catholics as brothers in Christ despite what differences I may have.

I don't know much about St. Ligouri except from what I googled, but it seems he is an important figure in 'Mariology' and has written significant prayers to Mary that is used by others for prayer. I am conserned about what he attributes as powers given to Mary such as the power to forgive sins, control of salvation, recommendation of salvation through her to God. It is hard to say that Mary is just thought of as a good example and not worshipped, when it is so easy to find prayers written that seem to exalt her to a godly status. Maybe these people have Catholicism wrong, but it seems that they are the ones teaching 'Mariology'.

Again, where do we find scripture that saints can even hear our prayers. To me that is the starting point.


----------



## Banjo

To a Protestant, this is worship.



> Are you saying that you have never prayed for anyone else and you have never asked anyone to pray for you? If you are asking others to pray for you, then you are treating them EXACTLY the way we are treating Mary. If you call that praying to/through them, then that is what you are doing. We are asking Mary to pray with/for us, we are NOT praying through/to her.



I have never bowed down to someone while asking them to pray for me.


----------



## Banjo

> I still think of Catholics as brothers in Christ despite what differences I may have.



If someone is trusting in Jesus and Mary (as co-redeemer or mediatrix) to save their soul, can they be saved?  If they pray to Mary for salvation, is this true salvation?

I don't know if all Catholics do this, but there seems to be a lot of evidence to at least suggest some do.

"For example, in 1985, in Guayaquil, Ecuador, the pope said: "Mary goes before us and accompanies us. The silent journey that begins with her Immaculate Conception and passes through the ‘yes’ of Nazareth, which makes her the Mother of God, finds on Calvary a particularly important moment. … In fact, at Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son that led to the foundation of the Church; her maternal heart shared to the very depths the will of Christ ‘to gather into one all the dispersed children of God’ (Jn. 11:52). Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity. … In fact Mary’s role as Coredemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son" (Inside the Vatican, July 1997, p. 23)."

In his general audience address of April 9, 1997, the pope said: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself [the crucifixion] and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and submission to Him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity… In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (Gen.3:15, Jn 2:4; 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs (Vatican Information Service).

"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix. (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 62, pp. 382-383).

    "Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Ireneus says, she being obedient. became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...’ death through Eve, life through Mary.’ This union of the Mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death" (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 56, pp. 380-381).


----------



## EMC-GUN

Banjo said:


> To a Protestant, this is worship.
> 
> 
> 
> I have never bowed down to someone while asking them to pray for me.





To a follower of Christ this is worship. Regardless of affiliation.


Banjo you seem to have an unlimited resource and I appreciate your sharing with the thread. I'm sure not everyone does, but I do.


----------



## Banjo

The Catholic Saint—
Liguori’s Prayer To Mary

O Most holy and Immaculate Virgin, my Mother; you are the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the world, the advocate, hope, the refuge of sinners, and I, the most miserable of those sinners, come to you today.

I venerate you, great Queen, and thank you for the many graces that you have bestowed upon me, and I especially want to thank you for having saved me many times from the punishment of God, a punishment which I deserved.

I love you, most lovable Lady, and by the love I have for you, I promise that I will always serve you and do as much as I can to make others love you. I put all of my hope and my entire salvation in you.

Receive me as your servant, O Mother of Mercy, and cover me with the mantle of your protection.

Since you are so powerful with God, free me from all temptations or, at least, obtain the graces for me to overcome them until death.

I ask of you a true love for Jesus Christ, and through you I hope to die a good death. My Mother, by the love you have for God, I beg you to always help me, especially at the last moment of my life.

Do not leave me until you see me safe in heaven.

I hope to thank and praise you there for ever. [pages 209, 210.]


----------



## EMC-GUN

Prayers for the dead.....300 A.D.
Making the sign of the cross....300 A.D.
Veneration of angels and dead saints, use of images....375 A.D.
Exaltation of Mary...."Mother of God".....431 A.D.
Purgatory....593 A.D.
Prayers directed to Mary, dead saints and angels...600 A.D.
Kissing the pope's foot....709 A.D.
Worship of the cross, images and relics....786 A.D.
Worship of St. Joseph....890 A.D.
Canonization of dead saints....995 A.D.
Celibacy of the priesthood....1079 A.D.
The Rosary....1090 A.D. (The book I am referencing says this began with Peter the Hermit, not the children you mentioned...Not sure which one is correct.)
Sale of Indulgences....1190 A.D.
Transubstantiation...1215 A.D.
Auricular Confession of sins to a priest...1215 A.D.
Bible forbidden to laymen...1229 A.D.
Seven Sacraments...1439 A.D.
Ave Maria...1508 A.D.
Tradition declared of equal authority with the Bible...1545 A.D.
Apocryphal books added to Bible...1546 A.D.
Immaculate Conception of Mary...1854 A.D.
Infallibility of the Pope...1870 A.D.
Assumption of the Virgin Mary...1950 A.D.
Mary proclaimed "Mother of the Church"...1965




This frightens me and makes me want to vomit. As I would believe it would make God want to vomit! Be ye hot or cold.......................


----------



## farmasis

Banjo said:


> If someone is trusting in Jesus and Mary (as co-redeemer or mediatrix) to save their soul, can they be saved? If they pray to Mary for salvation, is this true salvation?


 
I believe it is a done deal when you accept Christ as your savior. I think Jesus can save you despite Catholicism, or being Baptist in my case. If you put your trust in Mary, I don't think you are saved.


----------



## rjcruiser

farmasis said:


> I believe it is a done deal when you accept Christ as your savior. I think Jesus can save you despite Catholicism, or being Baptist in my case. If you put your trust in Mary, I don't think you are saved.



farmasis,
I believe that the biggest issue that I have with Catholics is that they believe in Justification by Faith plus works.  In other words, they don't put all of their trust in the work done on the cross, but some of it (what percentage, I don't know) in the works that they do.

Again, I don't put this on all Catholics, as stated before in the Catholics Christians thread, I put some are, some aren't.  But I do believe that if you put any trust of your salvation in yourself, it isn't true salvation as taught in the Bible.


----------



## farmasis

rjcruiser said:


> farmasis,
> I believe that the biggest issue that I have with Catholics is that they believe in Justification by Faith plus works. In other words, they don't put all of their trust in the work done on the cross, but some of it (what percentage, I don't know) in the works that they do.
> 
> Again, I don't put this on all Catholics, as stated before in the Catholics Christians thread, I put some are, some aren't. But I do believe that if you put any trust of your salvation in yourself, it isn't true salvation as taught in the Bible.


 
I have heard the arguments of that, but all I know is that works do not save and faith in Jesus does. I understand where that is coming from, however, Jesus said that if you believe in him you will not die. I have to trust that even if you add something to his requirements, it doesn't void the former. I cannot judge souls, nor do I want to so if someone says that they believe in salvation through Jesus, I believe them. It is a personal commitment that is only known to that person and God.


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> Prayers for the dead.....300 A.D.
> Making the sign of the cross....300 A.D.
> Veneration of angels and dead saints, use of images....375 A.D.
> Exaltation of Mary...."Mother of God".....431 A.D.
> Purgatory....593 A.D.
> Prayers directed to Mary, dead saints and angels...600 A.D.
> Kissing the pope's foot....709 A.D.
> Worship of the cross, images and relics....786 A.D.
> Worship of St. Joseph....890 A.D.
> Canonization of dead saints....995 A.D.
> Celibacy of the priesthood....1079 A.D.
> The Rosary....1090 A.D.  (The book I am referencing says this began with Peter the Hermit, not the children you mentioned...Not sure which one is correct.)
> Sale of Indulgences....1190 A.D.
> Transubstantiation...1215 A.D.
> Auricular Confession of sins to a priest...1215 A.D.
> Bible forbidden to laymen...1229 A.D.
> Seven Sacraments...1439 A.D.
> Ave Maria...1508 A.D.
> Tradition declared of equal authority with the Bible...1545 A.D.
> Apocryphal books added to Bible...1546 A.D.
> Immaculate Conception of Mary...1854 A.D.
> Infallibility of the Pope...1870 A.D.
> Assumption of the Virgin Mary...1950 A.D.
> Mary proclaimed "Mother of the Church"...1965



Do you know if Dr. Arnold has any footnotes or bibliographic references to support these dates?


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> Yet for all these things, if a Christian confronts a Catholic on his/her worshipping of Mary, the reply is always the same: "We don't worship her! We just give her honor that is due her as the Mother of God." But is this true? I practiced Catholicism for 30 years and I can, from experience, tell you that we prayed to her, through her, by her and for her as taught by the Roman hierarchy.



I am not real sure what if anything this proves. I can from experience of more then 30 years say that we do not.


----------



## PJason

farmasis said:


> I am not trying to start a stink..and I know little about the Catholic faith and where some doctrines originate from. I still think of Catholics as brothers in Christ despite what differences I may have.
> 
> I don't know much about St. Ligouri except from what I googled, but it seems he is an important figure in 'Mariology' and has written significant prayers to Mary that is used by others for prayer. I am conserned about what he attributes as powers given to Mary such as the power to forgive sins, control of salvation, recommendation of salvation through her to God. It is hard to say that Mary is just thought of as a good example and not worshipped, when it is so easy to find prayers written that seem to exalt her to a godly status. Maybe these people have Catholicism wrong, but it seems that they are the ones teaching 'Mariology'.
> 
> Again, where do we find scripture that saints can even hear our prayers. To me that is the starting point.




St. Liguori wrote over one hundred works in topics ranging from Jesus Christ to the Priesthood.  Find fault where you will but after reading His The Passion and Death of Jesus Christ and The Holy Eucharist, I would never doubt His love for Our Lord.
Below are a few of the titles…
The Glories of Mary
The Great Means of Salvation and of Perfection
The Incarnation, Birth and Infancy of Jesus Christ
The Passion and Death of Jesus Christ
Victories of the Martyrs
The Holy Eucharist
Preparation for Death
Way of Salvation and Perfection
The True Spouse of Jesus Christ
Dignity and Duties of the Priest or Selva


Here is one piece that I particularly love. 


Maxims for the Direction of a Soul that Desires to Obtain Perfection in the Love of Jesus Christ
by Saint Alphonsus Liguori
1. To desire ardently to increase in the love of Jesus Christ.
2. Often to make acts of love towards Jesus Christ. Immediately on waking, and before going to sleep, to make an act of love, seeking always to unite your own will to the will of Jesus Christ.
3. Often to meditate on his Passion.
4. Always to ask Jesus Christ for his love.
5. To communicate often, and many times in the day to make spiritual Communions.
6. Often to visit the Most Holy Sacrament.
7. Every morning to receive from the hands of Jesus Christ himself your own cross.
8. To desire Paradise and death, in order to be able to love Jesus Christ perfectly and for all eternity.
9. Often to speak of the love of Jesus Christ.
10. To accept contradictions for the sake of Jesus Christ.
11. To rejoice in the happiness of God.
12. To do that which is most pleasing to Jesus Christ, and not to refuse him anything that is agreeable to him.
13. To desire and to endeavor that all should love Jesus Christ.
14. To pray always for sinners and for the souls in purgatory.
15. To drive from your heart every affection that does not belong to Jesus Christ.
16. Always to have recourse to the most holy Mary, that she may obtain for us the love of Jesus Christ.
17. To honor Mary in order to please Jesus Christ.
18. To seek to please Jesus Christ in all your actions.
19. To offer yourself to Jesus Christ to suffer any pain for his love.
20 To be always determined to die rather than commit a willful venial sin.
21. To suffer crosses patiently, saying, "Thus it pleases Jesus Christ."
22. To renounce your own pleasures for the love of Jesus Christ.
23. To pray as much as possible.
24. To practice all the mortifications that obedience permits.
25. To do all your spiritual exercises as if it were for the last time.
26. To persevere in good works in the time of aridity.
27. Not to do nor yet to leave undone anything through human respect.
28. Not to complain in sickness.
29. To love solitude, to be able to converse alone with Jesus Christ.
30. To drive away melancholy.
37. Often to recommend yourself to those persons who love Jesus Christ.
32. In temptation, to have recourse to Jesus crucified, and to Mary in her sorrows.
33. To trust entirely in the Passion of Jesus Christ.
34. After committing a fault, not to be discouraged, but to repent and resolve to amend.
35. To do good to those who do evil.
36. To speak well of all, and to excuse the intention when you cannot defend the action.
37. To help your neighbor as much as you can.
38. Neither to say nor to do anything that might vex him. And if you have been wanting in charity, to ask his pardon and speak kindly to him.
39. Always to speak with mildness and in a low tone.
40. To offer to Jesus Christ all the contempt and persecution that you meet with.
41. To look upon [religious] Superiors as the representatives of Jesus Christ.
42. To obey without answering and without repugnance, and not to seek your own satisfaction in anything.
43. To like the lowest employments.
44. To like the poorest things.
45. Not to speak either good or evil of yourself.
46. To humble yourself even towards inferiors.
47. Not to excuse yourself when you are reproved.
48. Not to defend yourself when found fault with.
49. To be silent when you are disquieted.
50. Always to renew your determination of becoming a saint, saying, "My Jesus, I desire to be all Yours, and You must be all mine."
Source: The Incarnation, Birth, and Infancy of Jesus Christ 1927


----------



## Banjo

> Do you know if Dr. Arnold has any footnotes or bibliographic references to support these dates?




So far you are only one for three....That was when you spoke of Boettner.

What if the dates were off by a few years, it doesn't change the fact that these are all extrabiblical inventions.


----------



## dawg2

Banjo said:


> So far you are only one for three....That was when you spoke of Boettner.
> 
> What if the dates were off by a few years, it doesn't change the fact that these are all extrabiblical inventions.



Are you keeping score or something?  I didn't know it was a competition.  I guess it just helps you validate a twice removed religion.  Ridiculous...


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> So far you are only one for three....That was when you spoke of Boettner.
> 
> What if the dates were off by a few years, it doesn't change the fact that these are all extrabiblical inventions.



Fine then where is Ms. Boettner getting her dates from?


Does she have a list of her footnotes or bibliographical  reference?

It matters because you making claims of historical fact, those claims should be backed with sources. If not then I could make any sort of claim I wanted and call it fact.


----------



## Lil Sis

Goodness!  I leave you folks alone for just a few hours and look what happens!

PJason, Dawg2, Big 7 - we've got our work cut out for us!

Banjo, people have been writing about these things all the way back.  There is no way for me to fully explain them to you within the limits of time and my expertise.  But I will look at each of them and try to give you some answers over the next few days.  I hope the guys will try to find some links from sources that are RELIABLE sources of Catholic teaching to share with you also.  

Whether you are able to accept our answers is not for us to judge. 

Talk to you soon. 

Blessings!  


Lil Sis


----------



## PJason

Banjo said:


> So far you are only one for three....That was when you spoke of Boettner.



My apologizes this... 



Banjo said:


> Prayers for the dead.....300 A.D.
> Making the sign of the cross....300 A.D.
> Veneration of angels and dead saints, use of images....375 A.D. Exaltation of Mary...."Mother of God".....431 A.D. Purgatory....593 A.D.
> Prayers directed to Mary, dead saints and angels...600 A.D.
> Kissing the pope's foot....709 A.D.
> Worship of the cross, images and relics....786 A.D.
> Worship of St. Joseph....890 A.D.
> Canonization of dead saints....995 A.D.
> Celibacy of the priesthood....1079 A.D.
> The Rosary....1090 A.D. (The book I am referencing says this began with Peter the Hermit, not the children you mentioned...Not sure which one is correct.)
> Sale of Indulgences....1190 A.D.
> Transubstantiation...1215 A.D.
> Auricular Confession of sins to a priest...1215 A.D.
> Bible forbidden to laymen...1229 A.D.
> Seven Sacraments...1439 A.D.
> Ave Maria...1508 A.D.
> Tradition declared of equal authority with the Bible...1545 A.D. Apocryphal books added to Bible...1546 A.D.
> Immaculate Conception of Mary...1854 A.D.
> Infallibility of the Pope...1870 A.D.
> Assumption of the Virgin Mary...1950 A.D.
> Mary proclaimed "Mother of the Church"...1965



 Looked an awful lot like this... 

http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/jac_arnold/CH.Arnold.RMT.1.html


And this…



Banjo said:


> About Mary..... "And she is truly a mediatress of peace between sinners and God. Sinners receive pardon by...Mary alone" (p. 82,83).
> 
> Mary is our life...Mary in obtaining this grace for sinners by her intercession, thus restores them to life (p.80). He fails and is LOST who has not recourse to Mary."  "The Holy Church commands a WORSHIP peculiar to Mary (p. 130).
> Many things...are asked from God, and are not granted; they are asked from MARY, and are obtained, for She...is even Queen of he11, and Sovereign Mistress of the Devils." "Mary is called...the gate of heaven because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through HER (p. 160).
> 
> The Way of Salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary, and since Our salvation is in the hands of Mary...He who is protected by MARY will be saved, he who is not will be lost (pp. 169,170).
> 
> "All power is given to thee in Heaven and on earth, so that at the command of MARY all obey--even God...and thus...God has placed the whole Church...under the domination of MARY (pp. 180-181).
> 
> Mary is also "the Advocate of the whole human race...for she can do what she wills with God" (p. 193).
> 
> "Mary is the Peace-maker between sinners and God (p.197).
> 
> We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of MARY than by invoking that of Jesus. She....is our salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help (pp. 254, 257).
> 
> "The whole Trinity, O MARY, gave thee a name...above every other name, that at Thy name, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" (p. 260).



Seemed to have come from here…


http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=mary2


----------



## farmasis

I am removing myself from this discussion unless asked a direct question.

Let's just please, please be very cautious in our choice of words and the tone that we use in brotherly love when questioning someone else's beliefs.

Everyone here is deeply committed to their beliefs and I highly doubt anyone will or should renounce their faith. Let your motive for inquiring about someone's faith be to ask questions for your own understanding and not to condemn someone else for their belief system.

It only takes a small spark to ignite posts that erupt into the appearance of hatred by visitors here, and that will do no good to any cause.


----------



## Big7

rangerdave said:


> I refuse to participate in any more threads that have the word "Catholic" in 'em --- whoops!



Why


----------



## Banjo

> Are you keeping score or something? I didn't know it was a competition. I guess it just helps you validate a twice removed religion. Ridiculous...



No...PJason, always comes back with someone's name....  Even if this information is given from a third party source (just as most of our information is on here), it doesn't necessarily invalidate it.

I had a reason for listing those dates.  We are constantly told on here that the RC church is the oldest church, thus validating it.  My point is they are constantly "upgrading" or "adding" new doctrines/dogmas.  If they were infallible to begin with, why all the new decrees, even up until modern times?  Were they wrong until then?

Some of my information is coming from websites (not the ones listed, but when I use websites, I will provide links).  I am also reading Roman Catholicism by Mr. Lorraine Boettner.  This book was published in 1962.  Maybe these websites are getting their information from this book...

A friend of mine just gave me the "Catchism of the Catholic Church," "The Essential Catholic Handbook," and a bunch of Catholic pamphlets.  I have been reading these as well.


----------



## Banjo

> Banjo, people have been writing about these things all the way back. There is no way for me to fully explain them to you within the limits of time and my expertise. But I will look at each of them and try to give you some answers over the next few days. I hope the guys will try to find some links from sources that are RELIABLE sources of Catholic teaching to share with you also.



I look forward to it.  Thanks!


----------



## Jeffriesw

Has anyone convinced anyone else to change their mind yet?


----------



## Banjo

> Has anyone convinced anyone else to change their mind yet?



Probably not, but I have learned a lot by reading and studying.


----------



## gordon 2

Yes I have. I have changed my mind about the fall. The all in it does not mean all, all the time the same to everybody. I did not know that, and to what degree and so I have changed my mind about  it and the whole world that some say is depraved. It is a reality, my mind has changed. I have changed my mind, Calvin is very, very important. Thanks...

My great grand father a RC married a Presbytirian Scot lady. Thats the way love goes sometimes...and this I forget is a part of me.


----------



## gtparts

We did it guys!        

Gordy is officially "convertible". 

This calls for a group hug.


----------



## gordon 2

gtparts said:


> We did it guys!
> 
> Gordy is officially "convertible".
> 
> This calls for a group hug.



Don't be surprised if Gordy is a hardtop!  Though I know of a new reality, in Calvin's fall there is one  letter to this RC that stands in front of  what I think of it all.

I would rather be loved for being different than the same. Hugs are always good however...LOL

PS the lady in your picture with the scarlet rouge  would look a lot better we give her a  letter?  A scarlet double U, for witch! and all a stick to start a fire?


----------



## gtparts

BTW, I've changed my mind about changing my mind. 


In fact, I've done it so much that I am sure I've set a record for wearing out minds in a single life time.  

Somebody call Guinness.        Woooo Hooooo!!!!!!!!!

Peace unto you *ALL*.


----------



## gtparts

Uh oh. Time for an avatar change.  Like Arnold,"I'll be Bach".


----------



## dawg2

PJason said:


> http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/jac_arnold/CH.Arnold.RMT.1.html



Trash



PJason said:


> http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=mary2




Nice site...more trash...


----------



## dawg2

Banjo said:


> No...PJason, always comes back with someone's name....  Even if this information is given from a third party source (just as most of our information is on here), it doesn't necessarily invalidate it....



Well the homeless guy with grimy fingernails, greasy matted hair, and stained pants, on the corner saying, "The end is near!" isn't always the best source of intel, even if they have a website.


----------



## dawg2

Swamp Runner said:


> Has anyone convinced anyone else to change their mind yet?



Yep.  



























I have changed my mind about banjo picker.


----------



## gordon 2

I think that if we all had one day to live and had to clean house of all the inessential trash, that we would all be left with pretty well the same thing. Gordy.

Gtparts your Avatars are so Kafka,esque. The new big word for today is kafkaesque:

Main Entry: Kaf·ka·esque   
Pronunciation: \ËŒkäf-kÉ™-Ëˆesk, ËŒkaf-\ 
Function: adjective 
Date: 1946 
: of, relating to, or suggestive of Franz Kafka or his writings ; especially : having a nightmarishly complex, bizarre, or illogical quality <Kafkaesque bureaucratic delays

About my avatar, if you look closely, make of it a devotion or an icon every day, good fortune will  eventually accrue your way and much more besides. It is practically a fountain of youth, I tell you!


----------



## dawg2

gordon 2 said:


> I think that if we all had one day to live and had to clean house of all the inessential trash, that we would all be left with pretty well the same thing. Gordy.



True.


----------



## rjcruiser

farmasis said:


> I have heard the arguments of that, but all I know is that works do not save and faith in Jesus does. I understand where that is coming from, however, Jesus said that if you believe in him you will not die. I have to trust that even if you add something to his requirements, it doesn't void the former.



So where do you think it stops as far as adding to scripture or to the fact that it is Christ Alone/Faith Alone (gotta love the solas)?

Can I add another god to the mix?


----------



## dawg2

rjcruiser said:


> So where do you think it stops as far as adding to scripture or to the fact that it is Christ Alone/Faith Alone (gotta love the solas)?
> 
> Can I add another god to the mix?



I don't know where it stops.  Why don't you start another religion?  It seems to be in vogue, past and present.


----------



## Banjo

> I have changed my mind about banjo picker.


----------



## Banjo

> I don't know where it stops. Why don't you start another religion? It seems to be in vogue, past and present.



Ruh Roh.... Are you saying that Protestants are another religion?


----------



## dawg2

Banjo said:


> Ruh Roh.... Are you saying that Protestants are another religion?



Well they aren't Catholic.


----------



## gtparts

gordon 2 said:


> About my avatar, if you look closely, make of it a devotion or an icon every day, good fortune will  eventually accrue your way and much more besides. It is practically a fountain of youth, I tell you!




I've got my hand on the screen of my monitor and I'm praying.

Now all I need to know is where to send my generous donation and what kind of religious trinket I will be receiving. 

I await with burning curiosity.


----------



## Banjo

> Well they aren't Catholic.



So they are.....another "Christian" religion....

Or another apostate religion...

(Since you called me Banjo Picker...I figured I should live up to the name  )


----------



## dawg2

Banjo said:


> So they are.....another "Christian" religion....
> 
> Or another apostate religion...
> 
> (Since you called me Banjo Picker...I figured I should live up to the name  )



I never said, "apostate," I said, "religion."  You sure like the word "apostate."


----------



## gtparts

dawg2 said:


> Well the homeless guy with grimy fingernails, greasy matted hair, and stained pants, on the corner saying, "The end is near!" isn't always the best source of intel, even if they have a website.



You've seen my Dad? I've checked repeatedly with the "lady on the bus" , but when I got there , he was gone. Oh, joy!

And you say he has a web site?

Did he happen to mention "how near"? The "end", that is.


----------



## Banjo

> I never said, "apostate," I said, "religion." You sure like the word "apostate."



Methinks you are dodging the question....


----------



## dawg2

Banjo said:


> Methinks you are dodging the question....



What????

What question?


----------



## Banjo

> What question?



About Protestants...are they "another" Christian religion?  There are many "religions," but not all religions lead to heaven.  


Dawg...

We have been civil with one another, have we not?  Now, you call me "Banjo Picker" and say that your mind has been changed about me?  I am crushed...


----------



## dawg2

Banjo said:


> About Protestants...are they "another" Christian religion?  There are many "religions," but not all religions lead to heaven.
> 
> 
> Dawg...
> 
> We have been civil with one another, have we not?  Now, you call me "Banjo Picker" and say that your mind has been changed about me?  I am crushed...



Of course they are another religion, I already said that.  Not everyone in "their religion" (Catholics, Prebyterian, Baptist, etc.) is going to heaven either.  

Actually, no, you are not civil.  You act all coy and caring, but are clearly disingenuous.  You constantly attempt to "ask" questions" about religions and their beliefs (not just Catholic, but others as well) but your actual agenda is trying to put things out of context to further your agenda. You pull information from nefarious sites that are clearly slanted.  It is what most people refer to as a TROLL.  Someone simply around to foment.  The devil should be so proud.


----------



## dawg2

Banjo said:


> ... and say that your mind has been changed about me?  I am crushed...



Yes, I had a shadow of doubt about you, but that doubt has been vacated and replaced by certainty.


----------



## Banjo

> Actually, no, you are not civil. You act all coy and caring, but are clearly disingenuous. You constantly attempt to "ask" questions" about religions and their beliefs (not just Catholic, but others as well) but your actual agenda is trying to put things out of context to further your agenda. You pull information from nefarious sites that are clearly slanted. It is what most people refer to as a TROLL. Someone simply around to foment. The devil should be so proud.



Well, I am sorry you think so; I had no idea.  Perhaps you could elaborate on "MY agenda."  

You are wrong about the "coy and caring" part.  I am anything but coy, and I do care.  If I didn't, I certainly wouldn't be on this discussion's forum.  

Perhaps you are angry with me because you have no answer for the questions I posed concerning the RC faith.  You can't defend them Biblically, Dawg.  It is simply not there.  I can understand how that would upset you, but I cannot remain quiet about it.  To do so would be to assent to it, and my conscience will not allow it.  

I have been attempting to read original documents from the Roman Catholic websites.  I have read each one posted and cited here.  I have copied and pasted many of these....How can these sites be slanted?  They are RC.

In the end, I am sad.  I seriously had no idea that you held such animosity towards me.  I can assure you, the feeling has never been mutual.


----------



## dawg2

Banjo said:


> ...I can understand how that would upset you, but I cannot remain quiet about it.  To do so would be to assent to it, and my conscience will not allow it....



Wrong again.  I am not "upset" by that.  




Banjo said:


> .
> I have been attempting to read original documents from the Roman Catholic websites.  I have read each one posted and cited here.  I have copied and pasted many of these....How can these sites be slanted?  They are RC...



Actually, these sites below are not RC.


PJason said:


> My apologizes this...
> 
> 
> 
> Looked an awful lot like this...
> 
> http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/jac_arnold/CH.Arnold.RMT.1.html
> 
> 
> And this…
> 
> 
> 
> Seemed to have come from here…
> 
> 
> http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=mary2





Banjo said:


> Well, I am sorry you think so; I had no idea.  Perhaps you could elaborate on "MY agenda."
> 
> 
> In the end, I am sad.  I seriously had no idea that you held such animosity towards me.  I can assure you, the feeling has never been mutual.



Your agenda is MOST likely the same as reformed pastor since you two are buddies.  RP's agenda was quite clear.  It is not animosity I have, it is sympathy.


----------



## Banjo

Well... at least you got all of that off your chest.  Again, I have no hard feelings towards you, Big7, Pjason, or LilSis.  How could I; I don't even know any of you?  



> Your agenda is MOST likely the same as reformed pastor since you two are buddies. RP's agenda was quite clear. It is not animosity I have, it is sympathy.



I can live with your sympathy.  You have mine as well; I have been praying for you (and the others on here) ever since I began participating...not in a haughty way at all, just that the Lord's will be done in every individual's life represented on this forum.


----------



## dawg2

Banjo said:


> ...You can't defend them Biblically, Dawg.  ...



KJV
Luk 1:46  And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 

Luk 1:48  For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.


----------



## dawg2

Banjo said:


> ... I have been praying for you (and the others on here) ever since I began participating...not in a haughty way at all, just that the Lord's will be done in every individual's life represented on this forum.



Good.  Keep praying, because it is working.  My faith has grown stronger as a result of this forum.


----------



## rjcruiser

rjcruiser said:


> So where do you think it stops as far as adding to scripture or to the fact that it is Christ Alone/Faith Alone (gotta love the solas)?
> 
> Can I add another god to the mix?





dawg2 said:


> I don't know where it stops.  Why don't you start another religion?  It seems to be in vogue, past and present.



I think that the Pope has done that for everyone.  It is like the Jewish scribes and priests in Jesus' time.  They started with the law and the teaching directly from God handed down to Moses.

But over the decades and centuries, they slowly evolved and became legalistic in their views.  They added to the law and made it something much different from what they had started with.  Like steps going up a tower....one at a time and they don't seem like big differences, but by the time you get to the top, you're in a much different place then when you started out.

Oh, and Dawg, the websites you refered to were actually websites that PJason posted, not Banjo.  Please don't blame her for bringing up offensive websites when they were inferred and brought up by PJason.


----------



## Banjo

I think that I am going to take a break for a while...  

You all carry on...  It has been fun... most of the time!


----------



## dawg2

rjcruiser said:


> ...Oh, and Dawg, the websites you refered to were actually websites that PJason posted, not Banjo.  Please don't blame her for bringing up offensive websites when they were inferred and brought up by PJason.



Yes he did.  That is where her info came from BTW.  She just didn't post a link.  Not the first time.


----------



## Double Barrel BB

> If Jesus is God and God is Jesus, then how could Mary have any part in creating God, when she herself wasn't created until long after God created the Universe?
> 
> If Mary was without Original Sin, then that would mean she was Perfect... Just like Jesus... How is that possible?
> 
> Was Jesus not Flesh? How could He experience the temptation of sin, if he was not Flesh?


 
Can anyone answer these questions? If you can't just tell me you can't, I am not trying to paint you into a corner, I am just trying to understand your beliefs... and please do not paste some 3 for 4 page article, just your beliefs on the matter...

DB BB


Just reposting my last post, becuase I fear that it has gotten lost...

DB BB


----------



## rjcruiser

dawg2 said:


> Yes he did.  That is where her info came from BTW.  She just didn't post a link.  Not the first time.



Wow....judging a person's motives...that is interesting coming from someone who's adamant about saying they (Catholics) don't worship mary, but then they go out kissing the feet and bowing down to statues of her.


----------



## rjcruiser

Double Barrel BB said:


> Can anyone answer these questions? If you can't just tell me you can't, I am not trying to paint you into a corner, I am just trying to understand your beliefs... and please do not paste some 3 for 4 page article, just your beliefs on the matter...
> 
> DB BB
> 
> 
> Just reposting my last post, becuase I fear that it has gotten lost...
> 
> DB BB


----------



## dawg2

Double Barrel BB said:


> Can anyone answer these questions? If you can't just tell me you can't, I am not trying to paint you into a corner, I am just trying to understand your beliefs... and please do not paste some 3 for 4 page article, just your beliefs on the matter...
> 
> DB BB
> 
> 
> Just reposting my last post, becuase I fear that it has gotten lost...
> 
> DB BB



See if this helps:

http://www.scborromeo.org/glad/c8.htm
The Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament contained the word of God (the tablets containing the commandments). Likewise, Mary's womb was the Ark of the New Covenant which was used to hold the Incarnate Word of God. 

Now let's look at the issue of Mary's sinless nature. Consider that when the angel addresses Mary at the annunciation, the greeting is almost a name change: 


"Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women" (Luke 1:28, KJV).
Mary (Miriam in Hebrew) means "beloved." In biblical times a person's name reflected what they were. Name changes have great theological significance in the Bible and this is almost as if her name is being changed from "beloved" to "thou that art highly favored." Since this is before Jesus has been conceived, to what is the angel referring? No doubt to her singular devotion to God, forsaking all earthly distractions and desecrations, and the fact that she had been conceived without sin in preparation for this event. 

Being conceived without sin does not mean that Mary had no need of a redeemer. In fact, like every descendant of Adam, Mary had vital need of a redeemer. Mary's freedom from original sin was an unmerited gift of God in that she was redeemed by Christ at the moment of her conception. It is at the moment of conception that God creates the soul and hers was created in a state of sanctifying grace. If you had the opportunity to create your mother, wouldn't you make her perfect in every way? This is why there are the doctrines of the perpetual virginity and immaculate conception of Mary. 

Jesus refers to Mary's sinless nature when He addresses her as "woman" in John 2:4 and 19:26. Today, one looks at Him addressing her in this manner and thinks this is disrespectful or that He is admonishing her. In fact, Mary was not the first sinless woman, Adam's wife was also created sinless. When she was first created, Adam named her "woman" (Genesis 2:23). It was after the fall, when she was no longer sinless, that her name was changed to "Eve" (Genesis 3:20). By referring to Mary as "woman," Jesus is recognizing her sinless nature. Like I said earlier, name changes in Holy Scripture are important.


----------



## dawg2

rjcruiser said:


>



You're getting fat eating that junk.


----------



## Lil Sis

Banjo said:


> Probably not, but I have learned a lot by reading and studying.




Me, too.  And this should be our objective.  

Lil Sis


----------



## Lil Sis

farmasis said:


> I am removing myself from this discussion unless asked a direct question.
> 
> Let's just please, please be very cautious in our choice of words and the tone that we use in brotherly love when questioning someone else's beliefs.
> 
> Everyone here is deeply committed to their beliefs and I highly doubt anyone will or should renounce their faith. Let your motive for inquiring about someone's faith be to ask questions for your own understanding and not to condemn someone else for their belief system.
> 
> It only takes a small spark to ignite posts that erupt into the appearance of hatred by visitors here, and that will do no good to any cause.



Hey, look, Farmasis!  Something we COMPLETELY agree on.  I knew we would find it if we kept searching. 


Lil Sis


----------



## Lil Sis

gordon 2 said:


> Yes I have. I have changed my mind about the fall. The all in it does not mean all, all the time the same to everybody. I did not know that, and to what degree and so I have changed my mind about  it and the whole world that some say is depraved. It is a reality, my mind has changed. I have changed my mind, Calvin is very, very important. Thanks...
> 
> My great grand father a RC married a Presbytirian Scot lady. Thats the way love goes sometimes...and this I forget is a part of me.



gordon2, I think you're sort of crazy in a good way.  I enjoy the way your posts break things up when we get into a little stress.  


Lil Sis


----------



## rjcruiser

dawg2 said:


> You're getting fat eating that junk.



I wish, my wife keeps telling me that I need to put on some weight, but I'm just too cheap to want to go out and buy new camo.


----------



## Lil Sis

gtparts said:


> I've got my hand on the screen of my monitor and I'm praying.



You're not worshipping that monitor, now, are you?


----------



## rjcruiser

dawg2 said:


> See if this helps:
> 
> http://www.scborromeo.org/glad/c8.htm
> The Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament contained the word of God (the tablets containing the commandments). Likewise, Mary's womb was the Ark of the New Covenant which was used to hold the Incarnate Word of God.
> 
> Now let's look at the issue of Mary's sinless nature. Consider that when the angel addresses Mary at the annunciation, the greeting is almost a name change:
> 
> 
> "Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women" (Luke 1:28, KJV).
> Mary (Miriam in Hebrew) means "beloved." In biblical times a person's name reflected what they were. Name changes have great theological significance in the Bible and this is almost as if her name is being changed from "beloved" to "thou that art highly favored." Since this is before Jesus has been conceived, to what is the angel referring? No doubt to her singular devotion to God, forsaking all earthly distractions and desecrations, and the fact that she had been conceived without sin in preparation for this event.
> 
> Being conceived without sin does not mean that Mary had no need of a redeemer. In fact, like every descendant of Adam, Mary had vital need of a redeemer. Mary's freedom from original sin was an unmerited gift of God in that she was redeemed by Christ at the moment of her conception. It is at the moment of conception that God creates the soul and hers was created in a state of sanctifying grace. If you had the opportunity to create your mother, wouldn't you make her perfect in every way? This is why there are the doctrines of the perpetual virginity and immaculate conception of Mary.
> 
> Jesus refers to Mary's sinless nature when He addresses her as "woman" in John 2:4 and 19:26. Today, one looks at Him addressing her in this manner and thinks this is disrespectful or that He is admonishing her. In fact, Mary was not the first sinless woman, Adam's wife was also created sinless. When she was first created, Adam named her "woman" (Genesis 2:23). It was after the fall, when she was no longer sinless, that her name was changed to "Eve" (Genesis 3:20). By referring to Mary as "woman," Jesus is recognizing her sinless nature. Like I said earlier, name changes in Holy Scripture are important.



Catholics rest the entire bit of Mary being sinless on an "Almost" name change?

Then, if she is sinless, there would be no reason for her needing a savior.  We only need a savior from our/because of our sin.  

Also, Jesus calling her woman.  Woman means "out of man" and adam or man means "out of dust."  Woman doesn't mean sinless and this correlation is a huge huge stretch.


----------



## Double Barrel BB

rjcruiser said:


> Catholics rest the entire bit of Mary being sinless on an "Almost" name change?
> 
> Then, if she is sinless, there would be no reason for her needing a savior. We only need a savior from our/because of our sin.
> 
> Also, Jesus calling her woman. Woman means "out of man" and adam or man means "out of dust." Woman doesn't mean sinless and this correlation is a huge huge stretch.


 

Couldn't have said it better myself... Sometimes I think RJ, that you and me are on the same wavelength....

DB BB


----------



## Lil Sis

Double Barrel BB said:


> Can anyone answer these questions? If you can't just tell me you can't, I am not trying to paint you into a corner, I am just trying to understand your beliefs... and please do not paste some 3 for 4 page article, just your beliefs on the matter...
> 
> DB BB
> 
> 
> Just reposting my last post, becuase I fear that it has gotten lost...
> 
> DB BB



DBBB - I answered these in Post #202. 

Jesus is Flesh.  

Philippians 2:5  For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.  8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. 9 For which cause, God also hath exalted him and hath given him a name which is above all names: 10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: 11 And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

Jesus is the second person of the triune Godhead - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, ONE GOD in three divine persons.  Jesus has two natures - human and divine - which cannot be separated.  He is fully God and fully human.  

Blessings to all!

Lil Sis


----------



## Lil Sis

dawg2 said:


> Being conceived without sin does not mean that Mary had no need of a redeemer. In fact, like every descendant of Adam, Mary had vital need of a redeemer. Mary's freedom from original sin was an unmerited gift of God in that she was redeemed by Christ at the moment of her conception. It is at the moment of conception that God creates the soul and hers was created in a state of sanctifying grace. If you had the opportunity to create your mother, wouldn't you make her perfect in every way? This is why there are the doctrines of the perpetual virginity and immaculate conception of Mary.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep - you've got it, Dawg.  Also see my post 202.
Click to expand...


----------



## rjcruiser

Lil Sis said:


> dawg2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being conceived without sin does not mean that Mary had no need of a redeemer. In fact, like every descendant of Adam, Mary had vital need of a redeemer. Mary's freedom from original sin was an unmerited gift of God in that she was redeemed by Christ at the moment of her conception. It is at the moment of conception that God creates the soul and hers was created in a state of sanctifying grace. If you had the opportunity to create your mother, wouldn't you make her perfect in every way? This is why there are the doctrines of the perpetual virginity and immaculate conception of Mary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep - you've got it, Dawg.  Also see my post 202.
Click to expand...


What did she need to be redeemed of if she was sinless?


----------



## Double Barrel BB

Lil Sis said:


> DBBB - I answered these in Post #202.
> Blessings to all!
> 
> Lil Sis


 
So you are saying that Mary was perfect?

So she did not Sin her entire life?

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB

What about James, Jesus's brother...  How could Mary still be a virgin, if she gave birth to James, the Son of Joseph?

DB BB


----------



## gtparts

Lil Sis said:


> You're not worshipping that monitor, now, are you?



Absolutely not...... unless the trinket I receive exceeds the value of my generous donation to gordon 2's avatar, in which case I will keep sending generous checks until I alone possess ALL the trinkets. HA! HA! HA! (sinisterly rendered a la Snidely Whiplash)


Yes!!! That's right. TRINKET DOMINATION!!!!!

Pssssst.....btw, this is a secret between us, just the two, you and I. Not a syllable to any one OR (sound of butter knife spreading Shed's Spread)


----------



## Double Barrel BB

The Saint said:


> You are the only one here who could convert a soul back to Christ's Church.


 
Actually God is the only one that can ever convert anyone...

As for your "Christ's Church" comment... If you believe that the Catholic Church is the only "True" church then, I will be praying for you...

DB BB


----------



## gtparts

The Saint said:


> I have been a lurker on this thread since it began and it is the sole reason I have joined GON.
> 
> I have gotten kicks out of a lot of stuff people have posted on this forum.
> 
> lil sis...you are amazing. You could teach my apologetics class. I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts. You are the only one here who could convert a soul back to Christ's Church. All other Catholics here would have a hard time. Way too militant. Dawg is pretty funny, though. Lil sis, the way you communicate is amazing. Mother Teresa would be proud.
> 
> Keep posting, my fellow Catholics. Maybe you'll convert a few. I will be in the hunting section but I'll be watching. I just wanted to commend my Catholic sister on such a good job.
> 
> Hail Mary! Full of Grace! The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. AMEN!



What???    Now we gotta deal with a lurking saint????   What's next ??


knock...knock...knock....     Sorry folks, just my knees.

(Shhhhhhh. Quiet down there.)


----------



## rjcruiser

Double Barrel BB said:


> Actually God is the only one that can ever convert anyone...
> 
> As for your "Christ's Church" comment... If you believe that the Catholic Church is the only "True" church then, I will be praying for you...
> 
> DB BB





gtparts said:


> What???    Now we gotta deal with a lurking saint????   What's next ??
> 
> 
> knock...knock...knock....     Sorry folks, just my knees.
> 
> (Shhhhhhh. Quiet down there.)





Dawg, I'm trying


----------



## rjcruiser

Double Barrel BB said:


> Actually God is the only one that can ever convert anyone...



DB BB...

In my Catholic bible it states, I can do all things through Mary who strengthens me.


----------



## gtparts

rjcruiser said:


> DB BB...
> 
> In my Catholic bible it states, I can do all things through Mary who strengthens me.




Doesn't surprise me. Where I live, there is a Dave Thomas Chapel in most of the major commercial/retail areas where they worship Wendy and serve juicy burgers. Boy, are the Chik-fil-a cows ticked!


----------



## Double Barrel BB

gtparts said:


> Doesn't surprise me. Where I live, there is a Dave Thomas Chapel in most of the major commercial/retail areas where they worship Wendy and serve juicy burgers. Boy, are the Chik-fil-a cows ticked!


----------



## Double Barrel BB

The Saint said:


> I am honored to be from the city in which stands the oldest Church in the western hemisphere. The first person who can guess the city and the name of the church gets a prize!


 
Santo Domingo Church, Oaxaca, Mexico


----------



## Double Barrel BB

The Saint said:


> Oh...and the Church is absolutely Catholic!


 

Well I am not Catholic, and I can proudly proclaim that I am one of many that is in God's Church.

DB BB


----------



## dawg2

rjcruiser said:


> What did she need to be redeemed of if she was sinless?



She was still a daughter of Eve and therefore born into original sin.


----------



## gtparts

Catedral Santa Maria La Menor, also called Cathedral Basilica Menor de Santa Maria in
Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic
City founded 1496.
First church stone set in 1514... architect left... actual construction started in 1520.


----------



## dawg2

Double Barrel BB said:


> So you are saying that Mary was perfect?
> 
> So she did not Sin her entire life?
> 
> DB BB



I don't think my grandmother did either.  Right up to the day she died.


----------



## Ronnie T

dawg2 said:


> See if this helps:
> 
> http://www.scborromeo.org/glad/c8.htm
> The Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament contained the word of God (the tablets containing the commandments). Likewise, Mary's womb was the Ark of the New Covenant which was used to hold the Incarnate Word of God.
> 
> Now let's look at the issue of Mary's sinless nature. Consider that when the angel addresses Mary at the annunciation, the greeting is almost a name change:
> 
> 
> "Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women" (Luke 1:28, KJV).
> Mary (Miriam in Hebrew) means "beloved." In biblical times a person's name reflected what they were. Name changes have great theological significance in the Bible and this is almost as if her name is being changed from "beloved" to "thou that art highly favored." Since this is before Jesus has been conceived, to what is the angel referring? No doubt to her singular devotion to God, forsaking all earthly distractions and desecrations, and the fact that she had been conceived without sin in preparation for this event.
> 
> Being conceived without sin does not mean that Mary had no need of a redeemer. In fact, like every descendant of Adam, Mary had vital need of a redeemer. Mary's freedom from original sin was an unmerited gift of God in that she was redeemed by Christ at the moment of her conception. It is at the moment of conception that God creates the soul and hers was created in a state of sanctifying grace. If you had the opportunity to create your mother, wouldn't you make her perfect in every way? This is why there are the doctrines of the perpetual virginity and immaculate conception of Mary.
> 
> Jesus refers to Mary's sinless nature when He addresses her as "woman" in John 2:4 and 19:26. Today, one looks at Him addressing her in this manner and thinks this is disrespectful or that He is admonishing her. In fact, Mary was not the first sinless woman, Adam's wife was also created sinless. When she was first created, Adam named her "woman" (Genesis 2:23). It was after the fall, when she was no longer sinless, that her name was changed to "Eve" (Genesis 3:20). By referring to Mary as "woman," Jesus is recognizing her sinless nature. Like I said earlier, name changes in Holy Scripture are important.




Are you kidding me?  Is the above the official Catholic church position?


----------



## dawg2

rjcruiser said:


> Catholics rest the entire bit of Mary being sinless on an "Almost" name change?
> 
> Then, if she is sinless, there would be no reason for her needing a savior.  We only need a savior from our/because of our sin.
> 
> Also, Jesus calling her woman.  Woman means "out of man" and adam or man means "out of dust."  Woman doesn't mean sinless and this correlation is a huge huge stretch.





Double Barrel BB said:


> Couldn't have said it better myself... Sometimes I think RJ, that you and me are on the same wavelength....
> 
> DB BB



RJR and DBBB,
I provided both "milk" and "meat" and both of you went straight for the milk.  I have taken the milk away, see if you can handle the meat.  SHE is the "Ark of the New Covenant."  Go look up old the old Ark and see how it was handled.  

I hope that meat doesn't upset your tummies.



dawg2 said:


> See if this helps:
> 
> http://www.scborromeo.org/glad/c8.htm
> The Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament contained the word of God (the tablets containing the commandments). Likewise, Mary's womb was the Ark of the New Covenant which was used to hold the Incarnate Word of God...


----------



## Ronnie T

Roman Universal Church.

There's an awful lot of meaning in those three words.  History says that it was one of the smartest political moves Rome ever made.  It took the church from Christians and placed it into the hands and control of the Roman government.


----------



## dawg2

Ronnie T said:


> Roman Universal Church.
> 
> There's an awful lot of meaning in those three words.  History says that it was one of the smartest political moves Rome ever made.  It took the church from Christians and placed it into the hands and control of the Roman government.



That's funny  They should have taken over the stock market


----------



## Ronnie T

The Saint said:


> I would not argue that. But, I will point out, that you cannot experience the fullness of what Christ has given us by being protestant. If you do not attend Mass and partake of the Eucharist, you are not experiencing the fullness of Christ. And for that I blame the "fathers" of the reformation. I feel sorry for those who cannot go to His supper. I mourn for those who cannot "Take this body and eat it" and those who cannot "Take this cup and drink from it". My heart is truly heavy for those who cannot or will not partake. When I see someone go to Mass and they approach the Celebrant with crossed arms, I get choked up. Why? Because I see their faces! They want it so bad and they are so close! They are seeking what the Catholic Church offers and they are not able!
> 
> The beauty of the Mass is pure Heaven on earth! Only Christ could make something this beautiful. No jumbotrons showing the preacher bigger than life. No fake fainting or speaking in tongues to show how "holy" you are to those around you. No my friends, the Mass is a throwback because it isn't about the people in the pews. It is about the real presence on Christ!
> 
> You have to go to Mass. Now I want to go to Mass!
> 
> Dios te bendiga!




How did the apostle and early Christians worship immediately after the Acts 2 sermon by Peter?  Did they establish an order of mass?  No.  Your ceremonial mass is an invention of man.


----------



## Ronnie T

dawg2 said:


> That's funny  They should have taken over the stock market




I was actually thinking that their move might have been the first capitalist market take over.

They made a lot of money from it.


----------



## dawg2

Ronnie T said:


> How did the apostle and early Christians worship immediately after the Acts 2 sermon by Peter?  Did they establish an order of mass?  No.  Your ceremonial mass is an invention of man.



The same could be said of your religion.


----------



## Sterlo58

Every religion is an invention of man.


----------



## rjcruiser

The Saint said:


> I feel the same way about your Luther, Calvin, Spurgeon, etc. doing the same to the Church. Sure, the Church needed reform. As a matter of fact, it was going through a reform when the wayward psychotic priest posted his thesis (a tactic, by the way, that was pretty common in those times).
> 
> Oh...and the Church is absolutely Catholic!



O boy.....here we go again.  Another Luther was a psycho argument that added words to the bible

Please stick to the questions and comments at hand.  If you ask a question, again, us Protestants will answer it...I know that the Catholics on the board try their best to answer ours.  But please, enough of the "Luther was a psycho" and "your using hate websites as support" and "our church is older than your church"  arguements you use to try and show the Catholic superiority.  

Funny how you can't use the Bible to back up your belief system.  When that is the only common denominator in our belief systems.  However, while Protestants can stand solely on the Bible, Catholics have to use tradition and other man-made writings to support their positions.  Why, if you believe that the Bible is the infallible inerrant Word of God, can you not lean solely upon it?


----------



## rjcruiser

Sterlo58 said:


> Every religion is an invention of man.



I love these injections of our athiestic friends.  Kinda help in giving me a good chuckle in the midst of a heated debate.


----------



## rjcruiser

dawg2 said:


> RJR and DBBB,
> I provided both "milk" and "meat" and both of you went straight for the milk.  I have taken the milk away, see if you can handle the meat.  SHE is the "Ark of the New Covenant."  Go look up old the old Ark and see how it was handled.
> 
> I hope that meat doesn't upset your tummies.



If she was the new "Ark" why did she ride a mule all the way to Bethlehem?  People with a knowledge of the OT know what happened when the Ark of the OT was transported by mule/oxen.

Also, with that meat, their is no scriptural basis.  Again, your meat is without any substance....kinda like a veggieburger.


----------



## rjcruiser

dawg2 said:


> She was still a daughter of Eve and therefore born into original sin.



Okay...this I don't get.  One of you Catholics post that she is sinless....you all agree.  Then you post that she had original sin...not sinless.

So I'm confused.  Which is it, again, my 4th grade (I thought it was 2nd, but PJason corrected me) edumacated mind can't handle this.  Was she sinless or sinful?


----------



## Sterlo58

rjcruiser said:


> I love these injections of our athiestic friends.  Kinda help in giving me a good chuckle in the midst of a heated debate.



I am not an atheist. But the truth is all religions were created ( maybe invented was the wrong word) by men. There was divine intervention, but the formation and organization was done by men.

Don't go throwing labels around like stones  

There is no debate here. There is judgement, prejudice, self rightousness, all of the things that have soured me on formal religion. Your comment is proof positive. I am a Christian who over the years has grown weary of different Christian religions bashing each other over insignificant details of how they wish to worship. There have been more battles fought and more people have died in the name of religion than any other reason. I may be a lot of things, but an atheist is not one of them. I visit here for possible inspiration but usually leave frustrated by intolerance and rushed judgements.


----------



## Double Barrel BB

The Saint said:


> Ahhh, my friend, but you would be wrong. I told you not to google!
> 
> Dios te bendiga!


 

Didn't Google it... just remembered reading about it in an article awhile back...

DB BB


----------



## rjcruiser

Sterlo58 said:


> But the truth is all religions were created ( maybe invented was the wrong word) by men. There was divine intervention, but the formation and organization was done by men.



Ahh...the truth according to Sterlo58. Glad to hear that you believe what you do.  Maybe you should start a new thread.

Interesting how quickly your original quote has changed from your second follow up.  Going from all religion is a man-made invention to religion was created by God, but the formation and organization was done by man.

But I do appreciate your posts here and there.  They really do give me a chuckle.


----------



## PJason

rjcruiser said:


> Why, if you believe that the Bible is the infallible inerrant Word of God, can you not lean solely upon it?



Because a stool with three legs, is stronger then five stools with one leg each.


----------



## Sterlo58

RJCRUISER
If you will read the rest of my post that I edited, you will see that I don't get a chuckle out of your closed minded comments. You are one of the most judgemental members to post here. I am not amused by your sarcasm. I feel sorry for you.


----------



## Double Barrel BB

The Saint said:


> I would not argue that. But, I will point out, that you cannot experience the fullness of what Christ has given us by being protestant. If you do not attend Mass and partake of the Eucharist, you are not experiencing the fullness of Christ. And for that I blame the "fathers" of the reformation. I feel sorry for those who cannot go to His supper. I mourn for those who cannot "Take this body and eat it" and those who cannot "Take this cup and drink from it". My heart is truly heavy for those who cannot or will not partake. When I see someone go to Mass and they approach the Celebrant with crossed arms, I get choked up. Why? Because I see their faces! They want it so bad and they are so close! They are seeking what the Catholic Church offers and they are not able!
> 
> The beauty of the Mass is pure Heaven on earth! Only Christ could make something this beautiful. No jumbotrons showing the preacher bigger than life. No fake fainting or speaking in tongues to show how "holy" you are to those around you. No my friends, the Mass is a throwback because it isn't about the people in the pews. It is about the real presence on Christ!
> 
> You have to go to Mass. Now I want to go to Mass!
> 
> Dios te bendiga!


 
I do partake in Communion, which while not literally the body and blood of Christ, it is symbolic of Him. Don't feel sorry for me, I am very happy and I enjoy the fullness of Christ every time I breathe.

As for all the, jumbotrons, fake fainting or speaking in tongues... We do not practice any of that at my church... In fact if anyone fainted or spoke in tongues they would be escorted out of the church and given medical attention, because either they need it physically or mentally...

Maybe you need to come to a church service at my church and then see if you can lump us into the catagory you just created....

DB BB


----------



## gordon 2

The Huron Carol ('Twas In The Moon of Winter Time) 

'Twas in the moon of wintertime when all the birds had fled
That mighty Gitchi Manitou sent angel choirs instead;
Before their light the stars grew dim and wondering hunters heard the hymn, 
Jesus your King is born, Jesus is born, in excelsis gloria.

Within a lodge of broken bark the tender babe was found;
A ragged robe of rabbit skin enwrapped his beauty round
But as the hunter braves drew nigh the angel song rang loud and high
Jesus your King is born, Jesus is born, in excelsis gloria.

The earliest moon of wintertime is not so round and fair
As was the ring of glory on the helpless infant there.
The chiefs from far before him knelt with gifts of fox and beaver pelt.
Jesus your King is born, Jesus is born, in excelsis gloria.

O children of the forest free, O seed of Manitou
The holy Child of earth and heaven is born today for you.
Come kneel before the radiant boy who brings you beauty peace and joy.
Jesus your King is born, Jesus is born, in excelsis gloria.

Words: Jean de Brebeuf, ca. 1643; trans by Jesse Edgar Middleton, 1926
Music: French Canadian melody (tune name: Jesous Ahatonhia)


May be we should accept that some are creative with scripture... and go site-in our rifles.....for a while....

I remember when this post was dead, dead, dead. It was barren for days, and days and days and then...from death it was raised to...(______________) fill in the blank,  in excelsis gloria.


----------



## Sterlo58

May be we should accept that some are creative with scipture... and go site our rifles.....for a while....


Excellent idea


----------



## gtparts

Sterlo58 said:


> I am not an atheist. But the truth is all religions were created ( maybe invented was the wrong word) by men. There was divine intervention, but the formation and organization was done by men.
> 
> Don't go throwing labels around like stones
> 
> There is no debate here. There is judgement, prejudice, self rightousness, all of the things that have soured me on formal religion. Your comment is proof positive. I am a Christian who over the years has grown weary of different Christian religions bashing each other over insignificant details of how they wish to worship. There have been more battles fought and more people have died in the name of religion than any other reason. I may be a lot of things, but an atheist is not one of them. I visit here for possible inspiration but usually leave frustrated by intolerance and rushed judgements.



This is decidedly untrue! Religion has been the "rallying point" for many atrocities because men of religious conviction are motivated to die if necessary for their faith regardless of which faith that is, but the root cause has always been economic greed pitted against those trying to maintain control of an strategic economic advantage.


----------



## rjcruiser

PJason said:


> Because a stool with three legs, is stronger then five stools with one leg each.



Five stools with one leg each?  Is that somehow to be a reference to the 5 solas or the 5 points of Calvinism.

I only know of one stool and it is the inerrant infallible Word of God.  I think that it is much stronger than any leg that is man-made.



			
				Gordon2 said:
			
		

> I remember when this post was dead, dead, dead. It was barren for days, and days and days and then...from death it was raised to...(______________) fill in the blank.



Like a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool to his folly.  Prov 26:11.

Gordo, maybe we are all fools returning to this post and thread like dogs to their vomit.

I'd like to think of it as more than that, having a purpose other than "I'm right and you're wrong," but maybe I've got my rose colored glasses on hoping that debate can lead to change.  Oh boy, now I'm sounding like Obama


----------



## rjcruiser

Sterlo58 said:


> RJCRUISER
> If you will read the rest of my post that I edited, you will see that I don't get a chuckle out of your closed minded comments. You are one of the most judgemental members to post here. I am not amused by your sarcasm. I feel sorry for you.



Don't feel sorry for me Sterlo58....well, feel sorry for me as I have yet to slay a deer this season and my bow is not appreciating the fact that it hasn't tasted blood.

I am not being sarcastic with you but rather brutally honest.  Again, if you have a problem with organized religion, start a post.  I think you'd get a lot of interesting replies and a lot of people on this forum would probably agree with you (sad but true).


----------



## rjcruiser

gordon 2 said:


> May be we should accept that some are creative with scripture... and go site-in our rifles.....for a while....



Now if I could figure out a way to do that at work, that would be a great idea.


----------



## Sterlo58

Thanks for the advice. It would make for an interesting post.
Feel sorry for me as well. My bow has not brought home any meat for the table either.
Take care


----------



## gordon 2

rjcruiser said:


> Five stools with one leg each?  Is that somehow to be a reference to the 5 solas or the 5 points of Calvinism.
> 
> I only know of one stool and it is the inerrant infallible Word of God.  I think that it is much stronger than any leg that is man-made.
> 
> 
> 
> Like a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool to his folly.  Prov 26:11.
> 
> Gordo, maybe we are all fools returning to this post and thread like dogs to their vomit.
> 
> I'd like to think of it as more than that, having a purpose other than "I'm right and you're wrong," but maybe I've got my rose colored glasses on hoping that debate can lead to change.  Oh boy, now I'm sounding like Obama




I think you are right. It has purpose other than "I'm right and you're wrong". My lesson is how easy it is to love those who are our same, yet to love outside our comfort zone,  is really a way to hope and I think perhaps the way to peace. 

I personally don't really care where folks build their houses, I care that others  when the come out, as I try, that they walk the Way... The world cries for justice and the christian is deaf...myself first.


----------



## Lil Sis

Double Barrel BB said:


> So you are saying that Mary was perfect?
> 
> So she did not Sin her entire life?
> 
> DB BB



I'm saying that Jesus saved her by protecting her from sin before she was born.  All of humanity is in need of salvation because of original sin and Mary is human - not divine.  She was conceived without this sin (by her two parents in the regular way, not the same way Jesus was conceived), because God preserved her from original sin so she would be a perfect handmaiden fit to carry Jesus in her womb.  God created her for this purpose and HE made her sinless.  If you are in a car accident and you swerve to miss a tree and the person riding with you narrowly misses death by not hitting the tree, then didn't you save the person by your excellent driving?  A person can be saved before he or she falls.  The Bible says that Mary is FULL of Grace - not almost full of grace.  Not 99% full with 1% sin.  FULL of grace. 

Mary is human.  All of her graces come from God.  She has no power of her own.   But, the Lord is with her and she is blessed among women (says so in the Bible) and so we believe she is a good person to pray for us - just like you might think your sister is a good person to pray for you, (for example - I don't know if you have a sister) if your sister is someone who follows the Lord. 

We believe she is a perfect example of faithfulness to Christ - one to be emulated. 

Folks just get so hung up on our high opinion of Mary that they can't see that this opinion comes from our love of Christ.  Think of it this way - and this is MY explanation, not the Church's: 
You wouldn't give your wife a diamond ring wrapped in a paper cup - you would give it to her in a velvet box.  In this analogy, Mary is like the velvet box, JESUS is like the DIAMOND and the rest of us are like paper cups.  Some of us paper cups are less crumpled than others, but none of us are velvet boxes.  There's nothing wrong with a paper cup, it's just not suitable for presenting a Diamond.  And a velvet box is worthless without the Diamond, but when we see the box, we know that something very precious is near.  Without the Diamond, it's just a box.  Mary is only special IN LIGHT OF her relationship to CHRIST.   

It's not all that complicated, and you are free to disagree.   If you think that God sent his Son,  - the Redeemer of the World, the Word Made Flesh, the Prince of Peace, the Messiah, our Lord and Savior - through the body of a person who was stained with sin, a random choice, could have been anybody, an ordinary person - that's your choice.  I'm not here to judge you.  I'm just here to explain what the Church teaches so you can think about it, instead of thinking about the mischaracterizations that are so prevalent in these kinds of discussions.  



Blessings to you!


Lil Sis


----------



## gtparts

PJason said:


> Because a stool with three legs, is stronger then five stools with one leg each.



So, the Word of God is a stool upon which you put your backside? Why not skip the metaphor and just say that the Word of God is too weak to stand on its own, in your opinion and according to what the RC has taught you.

( Your Name Here) states without reservation that the Holy Bible lacks in some measure the ability to communicate the whole truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It needs two additional "legs" to give it credibility and authority in matters of Christian theology and the salvation of souls. Additional revelation(s) will be incorporated  as necessary, when necessary.



Don't sugarcoat it. 
State what you believe to be the truth. 

If church dogma / doctrine, which did not surface until 200 or 300 A.D. and later, is as authoritative as the Holy Bible, just say it is at least equal to, if not greater than the original scriptures in the Bible, as it is all inspired by God. 

Obfuscation does not become you.


----------



## dawg2

rjcruiser said:


> If she was the new "Ark" why did she ride a mule all the way to Bethlehem?  People with a knowledge of the OT know what happened when the Ark of the OT was transported by mule/oxen.
> 
> Also, with that meat, their is no scriptural basis.  Again, your meat is without any substance....kinda like a veggieburger.



So then you are saying she was not Jesus's Mother?


----------



## rjcruiser

dawg2 said:


> So then you are saying she was not Jesus's Mother?



Nope....obviously she was Jesus' mother.  That is what it says in the Bible.

But the Bible never tells us she was the NT Ark of the Covenant.  Just not sure how you are pulling that out of the scriptures.  How do you get to that conclusion is what I'm wondering?


----------



## dawg2

rjcruiser said:


> Nope....obviously she was Jesus' mother.  That is what it says in the Bible.
> 
> But the Bible never tells us she was the NT Ark of the Covenant.  Just not sure how you are pulling that out of the scriptures.  How do you get to that conclusion is what I'm wondering?



Maybe because Christ is the New Covenant.

1+1=2


----------



## rjcruiser

dawg2 said:


> Maybe because Christ is the New Covenant.
> 
> 1+1=2



Oh...I see....I'm a 3rd grade CPA, I can do math too

So, if therefore, since Christ is perfect, Mary had to be perfect too. (2+2=4)

So since Christ was God as well, Mary must be God too. (4+4=8)


Where does this correlation end?


----------



## dawg2

rjcruiser said:


> Oh...I see....I'm a 3rd grade CPA, I can do math too
> 
> So, if therefore, since Christ is perfect, Mary had to be perfect too. (2+2=4)
> 
> So since Christ was God as well, Mary must be God too. (4+4=8)
> 
> 
> Where does this correlation end?



Mary is Human.
Jesus is God.
Mary is God's mother.
Therefore, Mary is not God.

Understand now?

Mary is not God, no one ever said that except you and a couple other non-Catholics.  You fail 3rd grade, you are moving back to second grade.


----------



## rjcruiser

dawg2 said:


> Mary is Human.
> Jesus is God.
> Mary is God's mother.
> Therefore, Mary is not God.
> 
> Understand now?
> 
> Mary is not God, no one ever said that except you and a couple other non-Catholics.  You fail 3rd grade, you are moving back to second grade.



Darn...I guess I'm no better than Billy Madison.


Okay, I'll go along with your post.

Mary is Human.  Agree
Jesus is God.  Agree
Mary is God's mother.  Agree
Therefore, Mary is not God.  Agree

but I'll add

Mary is Human.
Human's are sinful.
Mary is sinful.


----------



## dawg2

rjcruiser said:


> Darn...I guess I'm no better than Billy Madison.
> 
> 
> Okay, I'll go along with your post.
> 
> Mary is Human.  Agree
> Jesus is God.  Agree
> Mary is God's mother.  Agree
> Therefore, Mary is not God.  Agree
> 
> but I'll add
> 
> Mary is Human.
> Human's are sinful.
> Mary is sinful.




I'll ask when I get up there.


----------



## Double Barrel BB

Lil Sis said:


> I'm saying that Jesus saved her by protecting her from sin before she was born. All of humanity is in need of salvation because of original sin and Mary is human - not divine. She was conceived without this sin (by her two parents in the regular way, not the same way Jesus was conceived), because God preserved her from original sin so she would be a perfect handmaiden fit to carry Jesus in her womb. God created her for this purpose and HE made her sinless. If you are in a car accident and you swerve to miss a tree and the person riding with you narrowly misses death by not hitting the tree, then didn't you save the person by your excellent driving? A person can be saved before he or she falls. The Bible says that Mary is FULL of Grace - not almost full of grace. Not 99% full with 1% sin. FULL of grace.
> 
> Mary is human. All of her graces come from God. She has no power of her own. But, the Lord is with her and she is blessed among women (says so in the Bible) and so we believe she is a good person to pray for us - just like you might think your sister is a good person to pray for you, (for example - I don't know if you have a sister) if your sister is someone who follows the Lord.
> 
> We believe she is a perfect example of faithfulness to Christ - one to be emulated.
> 
> Blessings to you!
> 
> 
> Lil Sis


 
Lil Sis,

I can't find anywhere in the AV1611 KJV where it states that Mary was Full of Grace... Could you point me to that scripture...

How about this... Jesus got His Divinity from God, and got His Flesh from Mary?

If she was without Original Sin, then is it possible for others to be without Original Sin?

I still can't wrap my head around this one:

How can Mary retain her virginity, if she gave birth the Jesus's half brother James, the son of Joseph?

To answer your question about my "excellent driving", I would have to say that God is the one that allowed me to be an "excellent driver" and the Glory is still God's not mine...

I am not trying to be confrontational and I hope my post are not being taken that way, and I agree, we can agree to disagree, but understanding more and how Catholics believe will help educate me on how better to witness to them in the future...

I am enjoying our conversation,

DB BB


----------



## dawg2

Double Barrel BB said:


> ...
> I still can't wrap my head around this one:
> 
> How can Mary retain her virginity, if she gave birth the Jesus's half brother James, the son of Joseph?
> 
> 
> DB BB



The Bible does not say they are Mary's children.  No one knows exactly who they were.  There is diagreement over translations as to whether Jesus had blood siblings or not.


----------



## rjcruiser

Double Barrel BB said:


> but understanding more and how Catholics believe will help educate me on how better to witness to them in the future...
> 
> DB BB


----------



## gtparts

The Saint said:


> You are kidding, right? I guess all of those televangelists are in the poor house, huh?



That's a big brush, saint. Don't know that that shade of paint is right for all those televangelists.

And where's my prize?


> I am honored to be from the city in which stands the oldest Church in the western hemisphere. The first person who can guess the city and the name of the church gets a prize!


Check this thread about 1:37 PM today.


> Catedral Santa Maria La Menor, also called Cathedral Basilica Menor de Santa Maria in
> Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic
> City founded 1496.
> First church stone set in 1514... architect left... actual construction started in 1520.



Peace.


----------



## PJason

gtparts said:


> So, the Word of God is a stool upon which you put your backside? Why not skip the metaphor and just say that the Word of God is too weak to stand on its own, in your opinion and according to what the RC has taught you.
> 
> ( Your Name Here) states without reservation that the Holy Bible lacks in some measure the ability to communicate the whole truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It needs two additional "legs" to give it credibility and authority in matters of Christian theology and the salvation of souls. Additional revelation(s) will be incorporated  as necessary, when necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't sugarcoat it.
> State what you believe to be the truth.
> 
> If church dogma / doctrine, which did not surface until 200 or 300 A.D. and later, is as authoritative as the Holy Bible, just say it is at least equal to, if not greater than the original scriptures in the Bible, as it is all inspired by God.
> 
> Obfuscation does not become you.




Not sure what you think I am trying to cover up.


The three legged stool 

Sacred Scripture sacred Tradition and the Magisterium


From the Catechism

III. The Interpretation of the Heritage of Faith

The heritage of faith entrusted to the whole of the Church

84 The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the depositum fidei),45 contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practising and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."46

The Magisterium of the Church

85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",49 The faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

The dogmas of the faith

88 The Church's Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes in a definitive way truths having a necessary connection with them.

89 There is an organic connection between our spiritual life and the dogmas. Dogmas are lights along the path of faith; they illuminate it and make it secure. Conversely, if our life is upright, our intellect and heart will be open to welcome the light shed by the dogmas of faith.50

90 The mutual connections between dogmas, and their coherence, can be found in the whole of the Revelation of the mystery of Christ.51 "In Catholic doctrine there exists an order or hierarchy 234 of truths, since they vary in their relation to the foundation of the Christian faith."52

*The supernatural sense of faith*

91 All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them53 and guides them into all truth.54

92 "The whole body of the faithful. . . cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (sensus fidei) on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals."55

93 "By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium),. . . receives. . . the faith, once for all delivered to the saints. . . the People unfailingly adheres to this faith, penetrates it more deeply with right judgment, and applies it more fully in daily life."56

Growth in understanding the faith

94 Thanks to the assistance of the Holy Spirit, the understanding of both the realities and the words of the heritage of faith is able to grow in the life of the Church: 
- "through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts";57 it is in particular "theological research [which] deepens knowledge of revealed truth".58 
- "from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which [believers] experience",59 The sacred Scriptures "grow with the one who reads them."60 
- "from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth".61

95 "It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls."62




45 DV 10 # 1; cf.I Tim 6:20; 2 Tim 1:12-14(Vulg.).


46 DV 10 # 1; cf. Acts 2:42 (Greek); Pius XII, Apost. Const.
   Munificentissimus Deus, 1 November 1950: AAS 42 (1950), 756, taken along
   with the words of St. Cyprian, Epist. 66, 8: CSEL 3/2, 733: "The Church
   is the people united to its Priests, the flock adhering to its Shepherd."


47 DV 10 #  2.


48 DV 10 para 2.


49 ⇒ Lk 10:16; cf. LG 20.


50 Cf.⇒ Jn 8:31-32.


51 Cf. Vatican Council I: DS 3016: nexus mysteriorum; LC 25.


52 UR II.


53 Cf. ⇒ I Jn 2:20, ⇒ 27


54 Cf. . ⇒ Jn 16:13


55 LG 12; cf. St. Augustine, De praed. sanct. 14, 27: PL 44, 980.


56 LG 12; cf. Jude 3.


57 DV 8 #  2; cf. ⇒ Lk 2:19, ⇒ 51


58 GS 62 # 7; cf. GS 44 # 2; DV 23; 24; UR 4.


59 DV 8 # 2.


60 DV 8 # 2.


61 St. Gregory the Great, Hom. in ⇒ Ezek. 1, 7, 8: PL 76, 843D.


62 DV 10 # 3.


----------



## Big7

Double Barrel BB said:


> Couldn't have said it better myself... Sometimes I think RJ, that you and me are on the same wavelength....
> 
> DB BB



WHAT! You may want to tune in to another wavelength.


----------



## Big7

Double Barrel BB said:


> So you are saying that Mary was perfect?
> 
> So she did not Sin her entire life?
> 
> DB BB



You are catching on.
GOOD FOR YOU!


----------



## Big7

The Saint said:


> I would not argue that. But, I will point out, that you cannot experience the fullness of what Christ has given us by being protestant. If you do not attend Mass and partake of the Eucharist, you are not experiencing the fullness of Christ. And for that I blame the "fathers" of the reformation. I feel sorry for those who cannot go to His supper. I mourn for those who cannot "Take this body and eat it" and those who cannot "Take this cup and drink from it". My heart is truly heavy for those who cannot or will not partake. When I see someone go to Mass and they approach the Celebrant with crossed arms, I get choked up. Why? Because I see their faces! They want it so bad and they are so close! They are seeking what the Catholic Church offers and they are not able!
> 
> The beauty of the Mass is pure Heaven on earth! Only Christ could make something this beautiful. No jumbotrons showing the preacher bigger than life. No fake fainting or speaking in tongues to show how "holy" you are to those around you. No my friends, the Mass is a throwback because it isn't about the people in the pews. It is about the real presence on Christ!
> 
> You have to go to Mass. Now I want to go to Mass!
> 
> Dios te bendiga!



BINGO!  You get the prize!


----------



## Ronnie T

The Saint said:


> You are kidding, right? I guess all of those televangelists are in the poor house, huh?



No I'm not kidding.  The Roman government saw the usefulness of a new, fast growing religious sect so they took it over, claimed it for themselves and used it as a means to do two things.  (1)  Gain better control over people.  All people.  and (2)  As this new religious sect grew throughout the world Roman government authority would thus spread. 
They changed church leadership from what the apostles taught to what would be best for Roman control.  Rather than deacons and pastor's in each church congregation, they instituted city and regional leadership right up to the Pope and to the Roman government.
It was the perfect business setup.

But it was the great 'falling-away'.

And who should be surprised that it still flurrishes today?
Paul warned the leaders of the church in Ephesus that a great falling away was going to come.

Now the world has 100's of thousands of people who trust and believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior who've been convinced that they are part of the original church, when indeed they aren't.
I pray that God will accept them and all of us in all our ignorance.
I wish we spent as much time talking about the goodness of Jesus Christ as we do about our church.

I cannot say that the church I attend was the first, but I will say that there, we strive to be the church of the New Testament.  That is the true church.  The church of the New Testament.  The church that trusts in God.  The church that has Jesus as it's Savior.  The church that prays to God, and worships God thru Jesus Christ.  The church who felt comfortable meeting and worshiping any place and any time.  The church that didn't care much for ceremony, rather, they worshiped in spirit and in truth.  And they loved each other and the world admired them and the life they lived.
The New Testament church didn't get on the GON forum to argue.  They spent their internet time seeing how they could better serve their Savior.

Bla Bla Bla, Bla Bla Bla Bla.


----------



## PJason

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Institution%20of%20the%20Gebirah.htm


rjcruiser said:


> Usually the queen is the wife of the King.



g'birah


----------



## Lil Sis

Double Barrel BB said:


> What about James, Jesus's brother...  How could Mary still be a virgin, if she gave birth to James, the Son of Joseph?
> 
> DB BB



DB BB, this is simply a language and culture issue.  

Mary was a very common name in this place and time.  James was the son of Mary, the wife of Cleophas - a different Mary.  (Matt 27:56, John 19:25).

In the Hebrew and Aramaic languages spoken at the time of Christ, there was no word for cousin, uncle or other close relatives, so the equivalent of what we would call "brother" or "sister" was used.    Paul addressed his comments often to his "brethren" although we know he was speaking to a wider audience than his own siblings, and probably, not to his siblings at all, since his letters were to congregations in far-away towns - Rome, Corinth, Thessalonica, Philipi.  In some modern Christian churches, including the Catholic Church in certain instances, people still refer to each other as 'brother' even though they are not related.  

We should also note, that in the "finding in the temple" episode in Luke 2:41-51, there is no mention of other children.

We see in John 19, Jesus entrusted his mother to John, a man outside the family, though a close friend.  If Jesus had brothers, this arrangement would not have been acceptable in Jewish culture, or even necessary. 

Blessings to you!

Lil Sis


----------



## Lil Sis

The Saint said:


> I have been a lurker on this thread since it began and it is the sole reason I have joined GON.
> 
> I have gotten kicks out of a lot of stuff people have posted on this forum.
> 
> lil sis...you are amazing. You could teach my apologetics class. I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts. You are the only one here who could convert a soul back to Christ's Church. All other Catholics here would have a hard time. Way too militant. Dawg is pretty funny, though. Lil sis, the way you communicate is amazing. Mother Teresa would be proud.
> 
> Keep posting, my fellow Catholics. Maybe you'll convert a few. I will be in the hunting section but I'll be watching. I just wanted to commend my Catholic sister on such a good job.
> 
> Hail Mary! Full of Grace! The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. AMEN!



Aw shucks, Saint!    Thanks so much.  I actually DO teach an apologetics class at my church and this is rigorous exercise.  I am enjoying it and wish I had more time.  

Please come back and join us.  Dawg, PJason, Big7 and I could use some company.  

Blessings to you, Saint!

Lil Sis


----------



## Lil Sis

gtparts said:


> Absolutely not...... unless the trinket I receive exceeds the value of my generous donation to gordon 2's avatar, in which case I will keep sending generous checks until I alone possess ALL the trinkets. HA! HA! HA! (sinisterly rendered a la Snidely Whiplash)
> 
> 
> Yes!!! That's right. TRINKET DOMINATION!!!!!
> 
> Pssssst.....btw, this is a secret between us, just the two, you and I. Not a syllable to any one OR (sound of butter knife spreading Shed's Spread)



Just checking, because I know you meant to be worshipping Gordon, but the way you were sitting in front of the monitor with your hands up praying, it looked like you were worshipping the monitor.  

Your secret is safe with me.


----------



## PJason

The Saint said:


> Way too militant



That's Big7 and me the Ecclesia Militans


----------



## Lil Sis

Double Barrel BB said:


> Lil Sis,
> 
> I can't find anywhere in the AV1611 KJV where it states that Mary was Full of Grace... Could you point me to that scripture...
> 
> How about this... Jesus got His Divinity from God, and got His Flesh from Mary?
> 
> If she was without Original Sin, then is it possible for others to be without Original Sin?
> 
> I still can't wrap my head around this one:
> 
> How can Mary retain her virginity, if she gave birth the Jesus's half brother James, the son of Joseph?
> 
> To answer your question about my "excellent driving", I would have to say that God is the one that allowed me to be an "excellent driver" and the Glory is still God's not mine...
> 
> I am not trying to be confrontational and I hope my post are not being taken that way, and I agree, we can agree to disagree, but understanding more and how Catholics believe will help educate me on how better to witness to them in the future...
> 
> I am enjoying our conversation,
> 
> DB BB



Well, fiddle-faddle, DB BB.  I had almost finished answering this for you and I hit the wrong button and lost it!    Let me try again, this time in smaller posts.  

I do appreciate your patience in working through these questions.  This teaching is second-nature to Catholics, so we have a hard time understanding the Protestant objection.  You keep asking and I will keep clarifying.  My objective is NOT for us to agree, though.  You are entitled to your beliefs and I am to mine.  My objective is that if you continue to disagree, you do so with the REAL teaching of the Church - not all the anti-Catholic material you may have known before.  If we are going to disagree, let's disagree on what we REALLY believe in.  

Read on for my response to your first question.


----------



## Lil Sis

Double Barrel BB said:


> Lil Sis,
> 
> I can't find anywhere in the AV1611 KJV where it states that Mary was Full of Grace... Could you point me to that scripture...



DB BB, 

There are other translations of the Bible, although I know you like it best.    KJV is not the original English translation.  The first full translation to English was by John Wyclife, an early reformer, between 1380 and 1383.  He translates Luke 1:28 so: 

28 And the aungel entride to hir, and seide, Heil, ful of grace; the Lord be with thee; blessid be thou among wymmen.


Lil Sis


----------



## Lil Sis

Double Barrel BB said:


> How about this... Jesus got His Divinity from God, and got His Flesh from Mary?



DB BB, 

Are you asking me if I said this earlier?  It is a very interesting question, but it is not what I said and NOT what the Church teaches.  

The Church teaches that Jesus is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity - God the Son.  God is ONE GOD who exists in three divine persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  

Jesus is one divine person with two INSEPARABLE natures, fully human and fully divine.  He is completely God and completely man.  

So to say that he gets his human nature from his mother and his divine nature from God is to say that his natures can be separated, a heresy that was rejected by the Church at the Council of Chalcedon in the 5th century.

One of the clearest passages in Scripture concerning the two natures of Jesus comes from John 1  The Word (i.e. Jesus) "was with God, and the Word was God." Moreover, the Word took on human flesh (John 1:14). Luke's gospel also says that Jesus "increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man" (Luke 2:52). 

Blessings to you!

Lil Sis


----------



## Lil Sis

Double Barrel BB said:


> If she was without Original Sin, then is it possible for others to be without Original Sin?



Matthew 19:26...with God all things are possible.

God saves anyone he wants in whatever way he wants.  

But this teaching about Immaculate Conception is only known to apply to Mary.  The Church does not teach of anyone else being saved this way.  

The Incarnation of Jesus through virgin birth by the Holy Spirit is an unparalled event and God's creation of Mary by Immaculate Conception to make her fit to carry the Incarnate Word is part of it.  There is no reference to Immaculate Conception in the teachings of the Church before or since. 

And for clarification, Immaculate Conception refers to the way Mary was conceived - of two human parents in the ususal way, but without the stain of original sin, making her fit to carry the Lord in her womb.

Some people think it refers to the conception of Jesus by a virgin and the Holy Spirit, but this is known as Virgin Birth.   

Jesus and Mary were NOT conceived in the same way. 


Lil Sis


----------



## Lil Sis

Double Barrel BB said:


> I still can't wrap my head around this one:
> 
> How can Mary retain her virginity, if she gave birth the Jesus's half brother James, the son of Joseph?



DB BB, you'll have to help me with this one.  I can't find James, the son of Joseph in the Bible.   If you know the verse, please let me know. 

If you are referring to the Ossuary of James, the controversial burial box inscribed "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus,"  then this is my response: 

First, Biblical scholars and archaeologist do not agree that this is an authentic artifact.  But let's say for the sake of discussion, that it is. 

James, Joseph and Jesus were common names at the time.  This inscription could have referred to any James, any Joseph and any Jesus (not our Lord.)  That is like saying that James Smith, Son of Joseph Smith and brother of Jesus Smith is therefore the brother of Jesus the Messiah.  You just can't connect those dots without further scholarship. 

But for the sake of discussion, let's say that we are talking about our James, Joseph and Jesus.  If James is the son of Joseph and the half-brother of Jesus, then Mary is not his mother.  Half brothers do not have both parents in common.  And I know, Joseph is not Jesus' real father, God is.  But from the perception of the community at the time (who would have etched the box) Jesus, Mary and Joseph were a family.  In Luke 2:41, Jesus is found in the temple by both of his parents - Mary and Joseph.  In Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55, Jesus is referred to as the carpenter's son.  


Lil Sis


----------



## Lil Sis

Double Barrel BB said:


> To answer your question about my "excellent driving", I would have to say that God is the one that allowed me to be an "excellent driver" and the Glory is still God's not mine...



Yes, glory to God in all things. 

I may not have been clear in my analogy.  I'm comparing "you" or "a person" driving the car and saving someone by preventing an accident to God saving Mary by preventing the stain of original sin.  In this analogy the driver is God.  




Double Barrel BB said:


> I am not trying to be confrontational and I hope my post are not being taken that way, and I agree, we can agree to disagree, but understanding more and how Catholics believe will help educate me on how better to witness to them in the future...



I believe that if you take the time to study and understand the REAL teachings of the Catholic Church, you will find that there is more that unites us as Christians than divides us as Catholics and Protestants.  We all believe the most important thing - that we are redeemed by the Grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.  



Double Barrel BB said:


> I am enjoying our conversation,
> 
> DB BB



As am I.  Blessings to you DB BB!


Lil Sis


----------



## rjcruiser

rjcruiser said:


> What did she need to be redeemed of if she was sinless?





dawg2 said:


> She was still a daughter of Eve and therefore born into original sin.





rjcruiser said:


> Okay...this I don't get.  One of you Catholics post that she is sinless....you all agree.  Then you post that she had original sin...not sinless.
> 
> So I'm confused.  Which is it, again, my 4th grade (I thought it was 2nd, but PJason corrected me) edumacated mind can't handle this.  Was she sinless or sinful?





Lil Sis said:


> And for clarification, Immaculate Conception refers to the way Mary was conceived - of two human parents in the ususal way, but without the stain of original sin, making her fit to carry the Lord in her womb.




Okay...I'll re-ask the question.  

Dawg and Lil Sis, you both agree that Mary needed a savior.

Dawg says Mary needed a savior from her Original sin

Lil Sis says that Mary thru the immaculate conception didn't have original sin

Which one is it

And if Lil Sis is right, Mary was without original sin and she lived a perfect life, why did she need Jesus Christ as her Savior?


----------



## dawg2

rjcruiser said:


> Okay...I'll re-ask the question.
> 
> Dawg and Lil Sis, you both agree that Mary needed a savior.
> 
> Dawg says Mary needed a savior from her Original sin
> 
> Lil Sis says that Mary thru the immaculate conception didn't have original sin
> 
> Which one is it
> 
> And if Lil Sis is right, Mary was without original sin and she lived a perfect life, why did she need Jesus Christ as her Savior?



Well I guess I was wrong.  Even Martin Luther said she was sinless, even to Original sin.  Below are some excerpts from his writings:


"....so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin...............And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin." (Martin Luther's Works, vol 4, pg 694)

"God has formed the soul and body of the Virgin Mary full of the Holy Spirit, so that she is without all sins, " (ibid. vol 52, pg 39)

". . . she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her." (Ref: Luther's Works, American edition, vol. 43, p. 40, ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1968)


----------



## dawg2

Double Barrel BB said:


> What about James, Jesus's brother...  How could Mary still be a virgin, if she gave birth to James, the Son of Joseph?
> 
> DB BB



Ask Martin Luther or Pelikan...here is what he said about it

Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that. 
{Luther's Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) } 


Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. 
{Pelikan, ibid., v.22:214-15 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) } 

A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . . 
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) } 

When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.

{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) } 




Or, better yet, your friend Calvin


Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ's 'brothers' are sometimes mentioned. 
{Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin's Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55} 

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called 'first-born'; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. 
{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107} 


Under the word 'brethren' the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. 
{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) } 

OR, even John Wesley


The Blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as when she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin. 
{"Letter to a Roman Catholic" / In This Rock, Nov. 1990, p.25}


----------



## Double Barrel BB

Lil Sis said:


> The first full translation to English was by John Wyclife, an early reformer, between 1380 and 1383. He translates Luke 1:28 so:
> 
> 28 And the aungel entride to hir, and seide, Heil, ful of grace; the Lord be with thee; blessid be thou among wymmen.


 
That doesn't look like english to me...



Lil Sis said:


> Are you asking me if I said this earlier? It is a very interesting question, but it is not what I said and NOT what the Church teaches.
> 
> Jesus is one divine person with two INSEPARABLE natures, fully human and fully divine. He is completely God and completely man.
> 
> So to say that he gets his human nature from his mother and his divine nature from God is to say that his natures can be separated, a heresy that was rejected by the Church at the Council of Chalcedon in the 5th century.


 
I was more like proposing something rather than asking a question... but thanks for your response... 

God is a Being, we do not know what God actually looks like, we just know that we are made in His image, but that doesn't mean God looks like us... so... In order for Jesus to look like us (I should probably say a Jewish man) He needed to be born of a Jewish woman... So Jesus would inherit the genetic traits of His humanity from His mother, and His divinity from God, His Father... So He is Fully Human, but Yet Fully God... The male(God) part and the female(Mary) part of reproduction is needed to make another human, to me this doesn't seem too far fetched...



Lil Sis said:


> Matthew 19:26...with God all things are possible.
> 
> God saves anyone he wants in whatever way he wants.


 
*AMEN!!!!!!!!!!*




Lil Sis said:


> But this teaching about Immaculate Conception is only known to apply to Mary. The Church does not teach of anyone else being saved this way.
> 
> The Incarnation of Jesus through virgin birth by the Holy Spirit is an unparalled event and God's creation of Mary by Immaculate Conception
> 
> to make her fit to carry the Incarnate Word is part of it. There is no reference to Immaculate Conception in the teachings of the Church before or since.
> 
> And for clarification, Immaculate Conception refers to the way Mary was conceived - of two human parents in the ususal way, but without the stain of original sin, making her fit to carry the Lord in her womb.
> 
> Some people think it refers to the conception of Jesus by a virgin and the Holy Spirit, but this is known as Virgin Birth.


 
Thank you for clearing that up, I didn't know that Immaculate Conception referred to Mary, I always thought it referred to the conception of Jesus...



Lil Sis said:


> Jesus and Mary were NOT conceived in the same way.


 
I agree... Mary was the Daughter of a man and a woman, Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Mary...



Lil Sis said:


> DB BB, you'll have to help me with this one. I can't find James, the son of Joseph in the Bible. If you know the verse, please let me know.
> 
> But for the sake of discussion, let's say that we are talking about our James, Joseph and Jesus. If James is the son of Joseph and the half-brother of Jesus, then Mary is not his mother. Half brothers do not have both parents in common. And I know, Joseph is not Jesus' real father, God is. But from the perception of the community at the time (who would have etched the box) Jesus, Mary and Joseph were a family.
> 
> In Luke 2:41, Jesus is found in the temple by both of his parents - Mary and Joseph. In Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55, Jesus is referred to as the carpenter's son.


 
Actually, Matthew 13:55 is also the verse that points out that James, Joses, Simon, Jude, and 3 sisters, if I remember correctly, are the all the half siblings of Jesus, same Mother(Mary) different Father(Joseph)... You see God was Jesus's father...

How about these verses...

Matthew 1:24-25 KJV 
24.Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 
25.And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. 

Now we all know what is meant by the word "knew" in verse 25 refers to right?



Lil Sis said:


> Yes, glory to God in all things.
> I believe that if you take the time to study and understand the REAL teachings of the Catholic Church, you will find that there is more that unites us as Christians than divides us as Catholics and Protestants.


 
The same could be said about the REAL teachings of the Baptist Church...



Lil Sis said:


> We all believe the most important thing - that we are redeemed by the Grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
> Lil Sis


 
*AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## Huntinfool

For those of you who read the "Deer Hunting" forum.

This thread is ranking right up there with the "I'm mad" thread that will NEVER DIE!!!!


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


----------



## Big7

DB BB -

I thank you for not putting so many !!!!'s after AMEN
The thread will fit on my screen now. 

Now DB BB - go sign yourself up for RCIA.
They will get you all the info you need.

I know you are about ready to make the jump.
Go ahead and do it. GOOD FOR YOU! 

The RCIA is the process by which non baptized candidates are received into the Church. Baptized members of other Christian denominations who wish to join the Catholic Church are not baptized again, but are received into full communion with the Catholic Church through penance, profession of faith, confirmation, and the holy Eucharist. The stages of the RCIA may be adapted to meet their needs.
MORE HERE: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_Catholic_RCIA_classes

I don't use wika UNLESS I read through it!

So - you don't have to worry about another dunkin' down-stream
of the chicken house.

Check this out. This is a cut-n-paste of an e -mail or 
PM I sent to another forum member. If you need clarification,
hit me up with a PM. Read on.....

There is also an "introduction" to The Catholic Church which is essentially 
a series of classes for
the specific instruction of non-Catholics, interested in converting called 
The Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults,
or (R.C.I.A). Notice it says Christian - not Catholic. The reason for this 
is simple: The Catholic Church IS
The Christian Church in it's truest sense. BTW- catholic (small "c") simply 
means universal, as in the One
Universal Christian Church.
More on that HERE:
http://www.ecatholic2000.com/rcia/rcia.shtml


----------



## Lil Sis

dawg2 said:


> Ask Martin Luther or Pelikan...here is what he said about it
> 
> Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.
> {Luther's Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }
> 
> 
> Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.
> {Pelikan, ibid., v.22:214-15 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }
> 
> A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .
> {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }
> 
> When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.
> 
> {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or, better yet, your friend Calvin
> 
> 
> Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ's 'brothers' are sometimes mentioned.
> {Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin's Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}
> 
> [On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called 'first-born'; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.
> {Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107}
> 
> 
> Under the word 'brethren' the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.
> {Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }
> 
> OR, even John Wesley
> 
> 
> The Blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as when she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.
> {"Letter to a Roman Catholic" / In This Rock, Nov. 1990, p.25}



Nice job, Dawg!


----------



## Lil Sis

Double Barrel BB said:


> That doesn't look like english to me...


  Well, you know those 14th century Brits!  They talk funny. 





Double Barrel BB said:


> I was more like proposing something rather than asking a question... but thanks for your response...
> 
> God is a Being, we do not know what God actually looks like, we just know that we are made in His image, but that doesn't mean God looks like us... so... In order for Jesus to look like us (I should probably say a Jewish man) He needed to be born of a Jewish woman... So Jesus would inherit the genetic traits of His humanity from His mother, and His divinity from God, His Father... So He is Fully Human, but Yet Fully God... The male(God) part and the female(Mary) part of reproduction is needed to make another human, to me this doesn't seem too far fetched...



It is an interesting theory, and one that was hotly debated by the early Christians.  It was resolved by the Church and affirmed as doctrine in the 5th century.  The Church's authority to resolve issues is seen in Matthew 18:17.  If you want to know more, Google "Arianism" - an early schism from the Church rejected as heresy. 



Double Barrel BB said:


> Actually, Matthew 13:55 is also the verse that points out that James, Joses, Simon, Jude, and 3 sisters, if I remember correctly, are the all the half siblings of Jesus, same Mother(Mary) different Father(Joseph)... You see God was Jesus's father...
> 
> How about these verses...
> 
> Matthew 1:24-25 KJV
> 24.Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
> 25.And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
> 
> Now we all know what is meant by the word "knew" in verse 25 refers to right?...



I covered this in an earlier post #362.  The verses do not say they were his half-brothers and sisters, they say they were his "brothers and sisters."  Why then must we assume they were Mary's children and not Joseph's? Many Biblical scholars believe that Joseph was a widower and that he has children from a previous union.  Regardless, the Church's view on this is that "brothers" is a loose translation of "relatives."  

If you are not able to accept the Church's teaching on this, (which I am, but I know you are not - which is OK), then rather than debate translations and linguistics, let's just look at a common sense interpretation.  Do you really think that God went to the trouble to conceive his Son through a virgin only to have her have relations with her husband while she was pregnant - with the Lord still in her womb?    That doesn't make sense to me. 

And, if Jesus had real blood relatives - brothers and sisters - wouldn't people be claiming to be part of the family of Jesus?  We can trace the popes back to Peter - wouldn't people keep up with something as important as being a niece or nephew of Jesus?  I am related to Sequoyah and George Washington, and I tell people every chance I get!  (It's my only claim to fame). 

Dawg has already posted on the meaning of "until" in quoting the fathers of Protestantism in #374, but I'll give you a couple of other citations:

2 Peter 1:19 19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts....

SO are we NOT to take heed AFTER the dawn? 

Matthew 28:20  20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

What about after the end of the world?  Are we on our own?

I Corinthians 15:25 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Will He surrender AFTER he his conquered his enemies?

I Timothy 4:13  13Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

But afterwards, what?




Double Barrel BB said:


> The same could be said about the REAL teachings of the Baptist Church....


  We have some REAL differences and that's OK.  But let's discuss those, not the misconceptions and rhetoric.  Jesus loves us all. 


Lil Sis


----------



## Double Barrel BB

Big7 said:


> DB BB -
> 
> I thank you for not putting so many !!!!'s after AMEN
> The thread will fit on my screen now.
> 
> Now DB BB - go sign yourself up for RCIA.
> They will get you all the info you need.
> 
> I know you are about ready to make the jump.
> Go ahead and do it. GOOD FOR YOU!
> 
> The RCIA is the process by which non baptized candidates are received into the Church. Baptized members of other Christian denominations who wish to join the Catholic Church are not baptized again, but are received into full communion with the Catholic Church through penance, profession of faith, confirmation, and the holy Eucharist. The stages of the RCIA may be adapted to meet their needs.
> MORE HERE: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_Catholic_RCIA_classes
> 
> I don't use wika UNLESS I read through it!
> 
> So - you don't have to worry about another dunkin' down-stream
> of the chicken house.
> 
> Check this out. This is a cut-n-paste of an e -mail or
> PM I sent to another forum member. If you need clarification,
> hit me up with a PM. Read on.....
> 
> There is also an "introduction" to The Catholic Church which is essentially
> a series of classes for
> the specific instruction of non-Catholics, interested in converting called
> The Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults,
> or (R.C.I.A). Notice it says Christian - not Catholic. The reason for this
> is simple: The Catholic Church IS
> The Christian Church in it's truest sense. BTW- catholic (small "c") simply
> means universal, as in the One
> Universal Christian Church.
> More on that HERE:
> http://www.ecatholic2000.com/rcia/rcia.shtml


 

I lessened the !!! marks just for you Big7!

Again, I appreciate you wanting to convert me, but I will tell you, again, this option has never crossed my mind... You are always welcome to come to the Baptist side, who knows you might enjoy it more...

Thanks for the info though, can someone take the classes that knows they are not going to convert, but just for information?

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB

Lil Sis said:


> If you are not able to accept the Church's teaching on this, (which I am, but I know you are not - which is OK), then rather than debate translations and linguistics, let's just look at a common sense interpretation. Do you really think that God went to the trouble to conceive his Son through a virgin only to have her have relations with her husband while she was pregnant - with the Lord still in her womb? That doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> And, if Jesus had real blood relatives - brothers and sisters - wouldn't people be claiming to be part of the family of Jesus? We can trace the popes back to Peter - wouldn't people keep up with something as important as being a niece or nephew of Jesus? I am related to Sequoyah and George Washington, and I tell people every chance I get! (It's my only claim to fame).


 
It says that Joseph, didn't know her until after the Lord Jesus was born, not while He was in the womb... big difference...

Mary was his Wife, why wouldn't they have "relations"?

As for the half brothers and sisters thing... Maybe they feared persecution, maybe this is lost information, that nobody knows... I am not sure why there is no one claiming to be a decendent of Mary and Joseph... But I am not going to rule out the possiblity that they had Children after Jesus was born... Esspecially in the era in time in which they were husband and wife... When multiple children were pretty much the norm...

DB BB


----------



## Lil Sis

Double Barrel BB said:


> It says that Joseph, didn't know her until after the Lord Jesus was born, not while He was in the womb... big difference...



DB BB, go back and read the passage in context: 

18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 

 19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. 

 20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 

 21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 

 22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 

 23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 

24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 

 25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.


His action was the result of the angel's advice.  The angel was advising him ot not be afraid to marry her.  He woke up and took her to be his wife - it just means he married her.   If he woke up and had relations with her, then he had relations with her with Jesus in her womb. 



Double Barrel BB said:


> Mary was his Wife, why wouldn't they have "relations"? ...



Because the angel told him she was going to bear the Messiah.  If you were engaged to a virgin and an angel told you she was going to bear the Son of God, then when the baby was born, three kings showed up with gifts and a host of angels started singing, wouldn't you think that her virginity was something special and not to be spoiled?   Or would you just go on with business as usual?  Would you really enter the sacred place from which the Lord sprang forth?



Double Barrel BB said:


> As for the half brothers and sisters thing... Maybe they feared persecution, maybe this is lost information, that nobody knows... I am not sure why there is no one claiming to be a decendent of Mary and Joseph... But I am not going to rule out the possiblity that they had Children after Jesus was born... Esspecially in the era in time in which they were husband and wife... When multiple children were pretty much the norm...



Again, DB BB, go back and read the whole passage:

And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence. 

 54And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? 

 55Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 

 56And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? 

 57And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. 

 58And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

The people who were saying that he has brothers and sisters were DENYING that he was the MESSIAH.  They were saying "Look at him, he's nothing special.  His father is Joseph, and these are his brothers, he's a kid from around town."  They BELIEVED that Joseph was his father so they assumed that any children in the family were his brothers.  But we see in Matthew 27:56 and John 19:25 that at least two of these "brothers" - James and Joseph - were the sons of another woman named Mary and her husband Cleophas.  Simon and Judas were not his brothers, there were his disciples.  Even if there were other children who were in the family who had these same names, this passage does not say they were the children of Mary. 

Scholars and writers dating back to the early Christians wrote of Mary as a consecrated virgin - a servant of the Lord, and of Joseph's role as her husband to be more like that of a guardian.  If you want to know more about that, you can read it here: http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

Blessings to you, DB BB!

Lil Sis


----------



## Double Barrel BB

Lil Sis said:


> DB BB, go back and read the passage in context:
> 
> 18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
> 
> 19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
> 
> 20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
> 
> 21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
> 
> 22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
> 
> 23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
> 
> 24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
> 
> 25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
> 
> His action was the result of the angel's advice. The angel was advising him ot not be afraid to marry her. He woke up and took her to be his wife - it just means he married her. If he woke up and had relations with her, then he had relations with her with Jesus in her womb.
> 
> Because the angel told him she was going to bear the Messiah. If you were engaged to a virgin and an angel told you she was going to bear the Son of God, then when the baby was born, three kings showed up with gifts and a host of angels started singing, wouldn't you think that her virginity was something special and not to be spoiled? Or would you just go on with business as usual? Would you really enter the sacred place from which the Lord sprang forth?


 

I am not saying that he "knew" her while Jesus was in the womb...

"knew" meant having "relations"... Check it out in the old testament and how the word "knew" was used when concerning husband and wife....

We are not talking about me... I am not Joseph, if he was to be a gaurdian, then he did not have to marry her, he married her because the angel told him to.. God appointed this "just man" to be the husband of Mary... God knows what being a husband to a wife means, afterall He instituted Marriage... If Joseph was a "just man" and had to be favored of God also in order for God to entrust Mary to him, then why couldn't Joseph enter into the sacred place from where Jesus came?

DB BB


----------



## rjcruiser

Lil Sis said:


> 24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
> 
> 25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
> 
> 
> His action was the result of the angel's advice.  The angel was advising him ot not be afraid to marry her.  He woke up and took her to be his wife - it just means he married her.   If he woke up and had relations with her, then he had relations with her with Jesus in her womb.



25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

I don't see how you interpret that to mean that Joseph never had relations with Mary.  It plainly says, Joseph didn't have relations until she had "brought forth" or birthed her firstborn...Jesus.

If Joseph had never had relations with Mary, it would have said that He knew her not for the rest of their marriage.

Also, if she and Joseph didn't have future sons/daughters, why would this verse also point out that Jesus was her firstborn?  Wouldn't that be obvious if Jesus was her only child?  Again, if that was the case, the verse would've stated that Joseph didn't have relations with her until she had brought forth her only son.


----------



## gtparts

*What does Matthew tell us about Jesus' "siblings"?*

Matthew 13:

53 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence. 
54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? 
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? 
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. 
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

While I appreciate the interest in defending the position that Mary remained a virgin throughout her life, it is not a reasonable position to support on the basis of objective observation of scripture.

It is commonly held that Matthew, though positioned first in the New Testament, was probably penned towards the latter part of the 1st century and draws heavily from the Gospel of Mark. The Gospel of Matthew was clearly intended to present Jesus as the Jewish Messiah to the Hebrews (Jews). Also, as has been stated in other posts, the terms rendered as "brethren" and "sisters" in verses 55 and 56 are indeed applicable to true brothers and sisters, half brothers and half-sisters, and close kin, as cousins. It may also refer to some combination of these specific groups. All of this is widely accepted among unbiased biblical scholars as true.

The key is in verse 55 where Matthew lists the names of James, Joses, Simon, and Judas. If the event chronicled here was written immediately or shortly after it occurred, then one might reason that these were close male relatives but not necessarily half-brothers. But the further removed from the event, the less likely this becomes. After 30, 40, or 50 years, it becomes more and more probable that the names of "close kin" would not be remembered or included. As an example, I graduated from high school in 1968 along with a friend named Bob. We had been friends from 6th grade through 12th. We lived close, visited each others' house, spent the night at each others' house, played pick-up ball games at the park, were Boy Scouts together, etc. Now, 40 years later, I cannot remember the names of his two brothers.
 Matthew didn't hang out with these people for an extended period, so for Matthew to include their names, they must be important enough for the connection to be strong and memorable. To make the point of the close association as a former citizen, the reference to "carpenter's son" and "is not his mother called Mary" would be all that was needed. Furthermore, Jesus' words in verse 57 "A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. " indicate a level of disrespect or rejection by the townspeople, but also within his own house. While "his own house" might indicate his "clan", that would be understood by "his own country". Therefore, it would be only reasonable that "his own house" should refer to his immediate family.

It is a much longer and less likely stretch that James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas were just "cousins".

Also, as rjcruiser has already pointed out from Matthew 1:24-25  ,

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. ,

obviously, Mary does not have to conceive to lose her virginity. 

Beyond that, why would Matthew refer to Jesus as Mary's "firstborn" son, if in fact she bore no others?


Peace be unto you and yours.


----------



## Huntinfool

Lil Sis said:


> Would you really enter the sacred place from which the Lord sprang forth?



If she was my wife?????







You're dad gum right I would!  

Was Joseph exempt from the temtations of the world as well then?  How about not refraining from relations except on occasion and only for a little while and only to pray.

You think Joseph was exempt from that?

This is where my questions in the other thread come from.  There are tons of "wouldn't you" or "would you" statements attached to these beliefs about Mary's virginity and her exemption from sin, etc.


----------



## gtparts

Lil Sis said:


> The people who were saying that he has brothers and sisters were DENYING that he was the MESSIAH.  They were saying "Look at him, he's nothing special.  His father is Joseph, and these are his brothers, he's a kid from around town."  They BELIEVED that Joseph was his father so they assumed that any children in the family were his brothers.  But we see in Matthew 27:56 and John 19:25 that at least two of these "brothers" - James and Joseph - were the sons of another woman named Mary and her husband Cleophas.  Simon and Judas were not his brothers, there were his disciples.  Even if there were other children who were in the family who had these same names, this passage does not say they were the children of Mary.




Lil Sis, 

There is nothing in scripture to indicate that the men listed in your post are the same. All four names were quite common and it would be disingenuous to claim that they were the same, especially since the Matthew 13:55 passage indicates that those mentioned there were native to the town and known as kinsmen of Jesus with an extreme probability of them being half-brothers.

Peace.


----------



## Lil Sis

gtparts said:


> Lil Sis,
> 
> There is nothing in scripture to indicate that the men listed in your post are the same. All four names were quite common and it would be disingenuous to claim that they were the same, especially since the Matthew 13:55 passage indicates that those mentioned there were native to the town and known as kinsmen of Jesus with an extreme probability of them being half-brothers.
> 
> Peace.



gtparts, 

I'm not sure whether what you are saying supports my position or not.  I don't see anything about half-brothers and I maintain that if they were half-brothers, they were sons of Joseph.   My post acknowledged that these could be other people with the same names, but if they are they are the children of Joseph, not of Mary.    Read it again - the people who are saying these are Jesus's brothers are also saying that Joseph is his father.  They do not understand that God is Jesus's father.  The Bible does not say that Mary had other children. 

Blessings to you!

Lil Sis


----------



## Double Barrel BB

Lil Sis,

Didn't want you miss my reply... see post #383

DB BB


----------



## dawg2

Double Barrel BB said:


> Lil Sis,
> 
> Didn't want you miss my reply... see post #383
> 
> DB BB



I think you missed mine

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=2693541&postcount=374


----------



## Double Barrel BB

dawg2 said:


> I think you missed mine
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=2693541&postcount=374


 
Nope didn't miss it.. and I apologize for not replying to you sooner... I tend to concentrate on one person reply sometimes and loose the other posts from others...

Just because I believe in the 5 points of Calvinism, doesn't mean I believe everything about Calvin... I hope that makes sense...

DB BB


----------



## dawg2

Double Barrel BB said:


> Nope didn't miss it.. and I apologize for not replying to you sooner...
> 
> Just because I believe in the 5 points of Calvinism, doesn't mean I believe everything about Calvin... I hope that makes sense...
> 
> DB BB



Not really


----------



## Double Barrel BB

dawg2 said:


> Not really


 

Calvin didn't actually create the 5 points of Calvinism... They just bare his name because they lined up with his beliefs... did that clear it up?

DB BB


----------



## gtparts

> gtparts,
> 
> I'm not sure whether what you are saying supports my position or not. I don't see anything about half-brothers and I maintain that if they were half-brothers, they were sons of Joseph. My post acknowledged that these could be other people with the same names, but if they are they are the children of Joseph, not of Mary. Read it again - the people who are saying these are Jesus's brothers are also saying that Joseph is his father. They do not understand that God is Jesus's father. The Bible does not say that Mary had other children.
> 
> Blessings to you!
> 
> Lil Sis



Same mom, different dads. 
Jesus (God incarnate) fathered by God, the Father 

James, Joses, Simon, and Judas fathered by Joeseph

Therefore, half-brothers.


----------



## Lil Sis

Huntinfool said:


> If she was my wife?????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're dad gum right I would!
> 
> Was Joseph exempt from the temtations of the world as well then?  How about not refraining from relations except on occasion and only for a little while and only to pray.
> 
> You think Joseph was exempt from that?
> 
> This is where my questions in the other thread come from.  There are tons of "wouldn't you" or "would you" statements attached to these beliefs about Mary's virginity and her exemption from sin, etc.



Huntinfool, 

I appreciate your perspective on this.  I don't think that Joseph was exempt from his human urges.  I think it was a tremendous sacrifice he made out of his respect for the divinity of the Lord. 

The problem is, we (and I mean all Christians, not just Catholics vs. Protestants) don't agree on what the Bible says.  We are using different translations, even among those that are so-called Protestant Bibles.  The Wyclife Bible says, "full of grace" and the KJV says "highly favored" for just one example.  There are countless others. 

Even reading the same translation - I try to quote KJV for this forum, even though I use the NAB - some interpret it one way, and others interpret it another way. 

Catholics resolve this by following the teaching authority of the Church.  We have 2000 years of writing, scholarship and debate, and we consider most things resolved.  We resolve them in light of all the information we have - the Bible, the writings of the early Christians, the preaching of the Apostles, previous debates and declarations that were made in light of these things - all under the guidance of the Spirit.  When we resolve them, we issue a statement, which some on this forum consider to be "traditions of men" or a "made up religion."  We don't see it as being "made up" since the Lord promised that the Holy Spirit would remain with the Apostles and guide them into all truth and remain with them forever, and the leaders of our Church are the successors to the Apostles.  I have explained this on another thread. 

We didn't resolve all the issues at the same time.  We've been issuing statements all throughout the history of Christianity(including the 4th century statement that we had chosen books (under the guidance of the Holy Spirit) to be included in the Bible and proclaimed them as the inspired, inerrant Word of God - before that, there were just a bunch of separate books and no one knew which were true and which ones weren't).  The Pope issued one in the last few weeks that said we don't have to believe the earth is flat in order to uphold the truthfulness of the Bible (you can also see that whole discussion on another thread in this forum).  We've known the earth wasn't flat for a long time, but there are still people who point to passages in the Bible indicating that the whole world can be seen from a tall tree and arguing that since this is not true, the Bible is false.  So, the Pope issued a statement that the Bible is not intended to illuminate science and we can all rest easy that this argument proves nothing, the Bible is indeed TRUE.

So in this forum and elswhere, we can't agree on the Bible and Protestants don't accept the teachings of the Church which would settle these issues.  

So what's left?  

Common sense.  The instructor of the Bible series that we are studying in our Sunday School calls this "Winnie the Pooh Theology"...all you have to do is THINK, THINK, THINK. 

So when I ask "What would you do if you were in the situation?" I'm just breaking it down beyond whether we agree or disagree on what translation we are using and what that translation means to us as individuals.  I'm saying that we can also look at the situation and apply common sense.   

So after reading my posts exlaining "brothers" and "until" and the link that I posted explaining what the early Christians thought about it; and after reading Dawg's post #374 quoting what the fathers of the Protestant denominations thought about it; and seeing NO REFERENCE in the Bible to any other "son of Mary;" and considering how you personally would treat the mother of the Savior and how you would regard her sacred body (if the place where the Lord Our God was conceived by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit is not a sacred place, then I don't know what is, but I suppose some will argue that, too) - after all that - if you still believe that Mary and Joseph had a regular marital relationship and he "knew" her, then you are entitled to that belief and there is nothing further for us to debate.  

I'm not here to argue until one of us gives in because that is never going to happen.  I am here to explain the REAL teaching of the Church, so that if you continue to disagree, you disagree with real Catholic teaching - not all the hateful rhetoric.  I report, you decide.   All that is left now is "is not/is too" and I don't think any of us want to get into that.  God gives us a free will to think as we please and he loves us all. 

Gentlemen, I have enjoyed our discussion and I appreciate the chance to understand your beliefs and to share ours.   I'll see you on the next topic. 

Blessings to ALL!

Lil Sis


----------



## dawg2

Double Barrel BB said:


> Calvin didn't actually create the 5 points of Calvinism... They just bare his name because they lined up with his beliefs... did that clear it up?
> 
> DB BB



Not really...


----------



## Double Barrel BB

Double Barrel BB said:


> I am not saying that he "knew" her while Jesus was in the womb...
> 
> "knew" meant having "relations"... Check it out in the old testament and how the word "knew" was used when concerning husband and wife....
> 
> We are not talking about me... I am not Joseph, if he was to be a gaurdian, then he did not have to marry her, he married her because the angel told him to.. God appointed this "just man" to be the husband of Mary... God knows what being a husband to a wife means, afterall He instituted Marriage... If Joseph was a "just man" and had to be favored of God also in order for God to entrust Mary to him, then why couldn't Joseph enter into the sacred place from where Jesus came?
> 
> DB BB


 
I guess my post got missed.....

Lil Sis, I understand where you are coming from... Just seeing if you understand where I am coming from....

DB BB


----------



## Double Barrel BB

dawg2 said:


> Not really...


 

we will have to discuss this in another topic, if you want... I don't want to de-rail this thread....

DB BB


----------



## gtparts

Of course, the Bethlehemites assumed Joseph was the father of all in Joseph's household and that Mary was the mother of all in Joseph's household.

Peace.


----------



## rjcruiser

rjcruiser said:


> 25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
> 
> I don't see how you interpret that to mean that Joseph never had relations with Mary.  It plainly says, Joseph didn't have relations until she had "brought forth" or birthed her firstborn...Jesus.
> 
> If Joseph had never had relations with Mary, it would have said that He knew her not for the rest of their marriage.
> 
> Also, if she and Joseph didn't have future sons/daughters, why would this verse also point out that Jesus was her firstborn?  Wouldn't that be obvious if Jesus was her only child?  Again, if that was the case, the verse would've stated that Joseph didn't have relations with her until she had brought forth her only son.



I'll hop in line behind DB BB, but I don't want Lil Sis to miss mine either.


----------



## rjcruiser

rjcruiser said:


> Okay...I'll re-ask the question.
> 
> Dawg and Lil Sis, you both agree that Mary needed a savior.
> 
> Dawg says Mary needed a savior from her Original sin
> 
> Lil Sis says that Mary thru the immaculate conception didn't have original sin
> 
> Which one is it
> 
> And if Lil Sis is right, Mary was without original sin and she lived a perfect life, why did she need Jesus Christ as her Savior?



Okay...this one too.  Dawg admits he was wrong...Mary was without original sin as well.  So then, why did Mary need a savior?  What did she need to be saved from?


----------



## dawg2

Double Barrel BB said:


> we will have to discuss this in another topic, if you want... I don't want to de-rail this thread....
> 
> DB BB



Please, I would like to learn more about a schism from a schism.....


----------



## dawg2

rjcruiser said:


> Okay...this one too.  Dawg admits he was wrong...Mary was without original sin as well.  So then, why did Mary need a savior?  What did she need to be saved from?



The potential.


----------



## gordon 2

rjcruiser said:


> Okay...this one too.  Dawg admits he was wrong...Mary was without original sin as well.  So then, why did Mary need a savior?  What did she need to be saved from?




Maybe she did not need a saviour cause maybe she was already saved? Was aready in the way, she was a males were  circumcized in their hearts, a virgin in her heart, she practiced justice, she was as precious and pure as Noah, she already walked in the way of grace...etc...as  today millions of non-christians do? Perhaps. This is part of the what I go on, when I think of Mary as an extraordinary lady.


Luke 1:47

And mary said, My soul magnifies and extols the lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in god my Savior,

48 For He has looked upon the low station and humiliation of His handmaiden. For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed and declare me happy and to be envied! 

49 For He who is almighty had done great things for me and holy is His name!

50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him with goldly reverence, from generation to generation and age to age.


******Besides these words which to me are indicative of Mary perhaps already being saved and in the way, I find the conversion between her and Elizabeth remarkable. I find it interesting that Mary stayed three months with Elizabeth I find it interesting that Mary was visited by an angel who told her of God's plan for her. I find it remarkable that Elizabeth's husband was  an important rabbi  and was told by an angel about the unexpected  and important birth of their son etc.

I find it interesting that the baby in Elizabeth's womb jumps for joy when Mary first sees Elizabeth!

In other words these jews were not the snakes that Jesus would later have problem with, but just the opposite. Whatever sect of jews they belonged to, they did not wear their faith on their sleeves. Their faith was intimate and intense. I get the feeling that just as nothing will get in the way of a women wanting to be pregnant, nothing stood in these ladies ways that their pregnancies would be intimate with God, as well. These girls had their eggs in a row. Or something like that.


----------



## rjcruiser

Lil Sis said:


> dawg2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being conceived without sin does not mean that Mary had no need of a redeemer. In fact, like every descendant of Adam, Mary had vital need of a redeemer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep - you've got it, Dawg.  Also see my post 202.
Click to expand...




gordon 2 said:


> Maybe she did not need a saviour cause maybe she was already saved?



Okay...still got my question.  Gordon, I understood what you said, but per Lil Sis and Dawg, Mary wasn't already saved, but needed a redeemer.  

So again, why, if she never sinned, did she need a redeemer?


----------



## farmasis

Thought I would chime in a bit....

Mary seemed to think she needed a savior.

46 And Mary said: 
      “ My soul magnifies the Lord, 
       47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. (Luke 1)

Even if we do not have a record of Mary having sin, the Bible is clear who sins, and who does not.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1)

 For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3)

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned (Romans 5)


----------



## Rich Kaminski

*This sounds lije guilt through osmosis*

And I don't buy that theory!
It fails the logic test.


----------



## dawg2

farmasis said:


> 46 And Mary said:
> “ My soul magnifies the Lord,



Why did she say "My soul MAGNIFIES" the Lord?  Think about that verse.  It means more than you give it credit...vey important...even the early Protestant Reformers agreed on that point.


----------



## Banjo

> "My soul MAGNIFIES" the Lord?



Can a created being "magnify" the Lord?  Can we make God more glorious than what he is?

We can't, and Mary certainly didn't either...

We can "glorify" the Lord through obedience...which is what Mary did, but she certainly couldn't "magnify" Him in the sense that she made Him more magnificent....


----------



## Banjo

“And Mary said: My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has looked on the humble estate of His servant. for behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed.”  

EVEN Mary realizes her own condition and place when she admits her humble human estate.  

John Calvin paraphrases her meaning:  “I was unknown and despised, but that did not prevent God from deigning to cast his eyes upon me.”


----------



## gordon 2

Banjo said:


> “And Mary said: My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has looked on the humble estate of His servant. for behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed.”
> 
> EVEN Mary realizes her own condition and place when she admits her humble human estate.
> 
> John Calvin paraphrases her meaning:  “I was unknown and despised, but that did not prevent God from deigning to cast his eyes upon me.”



I think I look at this oposite you, but for perhaps the same reasons. Do you recall in the beatitudes or new attitudes as some call them, their is a mention about the weak or poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


I think that there are two meaning or two states for people where this could be true. One case could be made that the weak as the novice or the supplicant, or the person who doesn't know the Lord and His way but asks in good faith, theirs is the kingdom of heaven about to unfold!
The second case I would say is very different and what is attributed that Mary said of herself, in the words, "the humble estate of his servant".

In one case, the first, the person is not a servant yet, but in Mary's case she is already a servant. I ask then, is it not in the tradition that all be as Jesus, humbled by service or being servants to the will of God. 

What I get from Mary's words is not that she is depraved, or with original sin, or anything like that, but that she knew God intimately, and this was her estate. It was a place of high spiritual maturity, a girl that was "full of grace" which is a humbling estate. That is what grace is about!

If God, throught Jesus could humble himself to the point of being spit on, bullied, abused in everway, for doing good, for the service of others, from a place where grace is the only way, then I think this is what Mary means by her estate. 

Young Mary was 3000yrs ahead of the game. God looked on her, her estate as being akin to His and like the Noah of the flood, through her, through her Son, the world could be born again.

Now this is just my two bits, I might be in the wrong. Mary was not a novice, but a mother superior. My paraphrase would be "I am known and not without love, my Lord is ever with me." Which would ecko Jesus when He says the Father is in me.

Sister let us not pick at his dead bones, to blurr our way, but what ever good is attributed to his name, Calvin saw mostly the lemons in the lemonaids.


----------



## Sally

> Catholics resolve this by following the teaching authority of the Church.



This is the key to the whole issue Protestants have with Roman Catholics.  The "church" can't have the same authority as God.


----------



## gordon 2

Sally said:


> This is the key to the whole issue Protestants have with Roman Catholics.  The "church" can't have the same authority as God.




Yes but the New Testament is just one instrument of the church... It is the chruch that put the Good News, as you know it, together. It is by the authority that God gave the church that the text even exists! And therefore, having to chose how to fashion it, don't you think that it has authority above it? Or with it?


----------



## farmasis

Banjo said:


> Can a created being "magnify" the Lord? Can we make God more glorious than what he is?
> 
> We can't, and Mary certainly didn't either...
> 
> We can "glorify" the Lord through obedience...which is what Mary did, but she certainly couldn't "magnify" Him in the sense that she made Him more magnificent....


 
We do not make God more godly than he is, but because we serve him we magnify the glory of him.


----------



## Banjo

> We do not make God more godly than he is, but because we serve him we magnify the glory of him.



I agree with this....

Do you think Mary "magnified" God any more than any other person who is obedient to God's commands?


----------



## gtparts

gordon 2 said:


> Yes but the New Testament is just one instrument of the church... It is the chruch that put the Good News, as you know it, together. It is by the authority (Shouldn't this be "responsibility"?) that God gave the church that the text even exists! And therefore, having to chose how to fashion it, don't you think that it has authority above it? Or with it?



Is the created greater than the creator? 

Does the RC take credit for the authorship of the Bible or just the assembly thereof? 

Once assembled, do they correctly assume custodial rights?

Would that necessarily give them authority OVER the Word of God? Such a reversal of standing should be repugnant to all Christians. God's Word holds authority over all mankind, whether they acknowledge it or not.

Horse, then cart! Not cart, then horse!

Peace to you and yours.


----------



## Sally

> don't you think that it has authority above it? Or with it?



Absolutely NOT!  God, in His wisdom, chose to use humans to assemble the Bible; just as He chose Mary to be the vessel to deliver Jesus here on earth.  But in NO way does this mean people (which is what the church is) have authority over God's word just as Mary certainly doesn't have authority over God.


----------



## Sally

gtparts,

Didn't see your response until after I had posted mine.  Yours was much more aptly put.
Thanks,
Sally


----------



## Banjo

> Absolutely NOT! God, in His wisdom, chose to use humans to assemble the Bible; just as He chose Mary to be the vessel to deliver Jesus here on earth. But in NO way does this mean people (which is what the church is) have authority over God's word just as Mary certainly doesn't have authority over God.



What she said....

FALLIBLE people....

Fallen man has a way of really messing things up.


----------



## farmasis

Banjo said:


> I agree with this....
> 
> Do you think Mary "magnified" God any more than any other person who is obedient to God's commands?


 
I am not sure.
I know God is not a respector of persons, but throughout history some has found favor in him when others did not, such as Noah and Lot.
I am just glad he loves me. If he loves someone else more than me, that is OK by me. The love he has for me and His grace is sufficent for me.


----------



## Big7

Sally said:


> This is the key to the whole issue Protestants have with Roman Catholics.  The "church" can't have the same authority as God.



Your post and not (JUST) yours indicates that you have 
no knowledge of the teachings of The Catholic Church.

We like to point out historical fact. Something a lot 
of Protestants (not all) fail to even consider. 
Anything over and beond what THEY THINK THEY KNOW - about
the teachings of The Catholic Church -  which BTW -
is NOTHING or at best VERY LITTLE.

In a PM to me and a few others, so you will not find it in a post:
We even had a mod on here a while back admit that he did
 not know some of the pejorative lingo used on here was offensive, 
such as (from your post) The "church" .
I will make it a point from now on to type "p"rotestant
instead of "Protestant" as I have made habit
 NOT to minimize someone's belief which I do not agree with.

Rangerdave had a very good idea a while back for
"newbies" GO BACK AND READ THROUGH SOME THREADS.
Chances are the information from BOTH sides has likely been covered.


----------



## Sally

Wow, I would have expected the fellows on here to be a bit more kind to a "newbie".  I didn't purposefully not capitalize church as a slight to your faith.  I hate that you took it that way.  If you'll notice some of my other posts I have capitalized Roman Catholic... 

I have been reading the posts on here for a while and thought this was a good venue for some discussion, but according to your post it sounds like everything has already been covered and you don't have time to go over it again...


----------



## Big7

Double Barrel BB said:


> I lessened the !!! marks just for you Big7!
> 
> Again, I appreciate you wanting to convert me, but I will tell you, again, this option has never crossed my mind... You are always welcome to come to the Baptist side, who knows you might enjoy it more...
> 
> Thanks for the info though, can someone take the classes that knows they are not going to convert, but just for information?
> 
> DB BB



In order Buddy.

Thank You for the !!!'s 

I don't necessarily want to "convert" you.
That is God doing that.
I would like you to look at the facts so you can decide.
I do think you would benefit from the fullness of the truth,
 there is only one place to get that. You KNOW where that is.
I go to a Baptist Church - Black Church at that so I do get some
 "Baptist" fire and brimstone truth from time to time when I'm at hunting camp. 
The closest Catholic Church is about 45 min. away.

Yes - you can take the class even if you don't intend to convert. 
This will do at least two things:
1) You will get the true teachings of The Catholic Church.
2) Give you more information and clarify false teachings by
 other denominations about The Church  - about what people THINK they know
 about The Church,  separating the facts from the fiction.

You will be well received not talked down to or be degraded in any way.


----------



## Big7

Sally said:


> Wow, I would have expected the fellows on here to be a bit more kind to a "newbie".  I didn't purposefully not capitalize church as a slight to your faith.  I hate that you took it that way.  If you'll notice some of my other posts I have capitalized Roman Catholic...
> 
> I have been reading the posts on here for a while and thought this was a good venue for some discussion, but according to your post it sounds like everything has already been covered and you don't have time to go over it again...



I have time. Just so you know that was not directed at JUST you. I thought I made that clear. My bad.
Welcome aboard!


----------



## Double Barrel BB

Big7 said:


> In order Buddy.
> 
> Thank You for the !!!'s
> 
> I don't necessarily want to "convert" you.
> That is God doing that.
> I would like you to look at the facts so you can decide.
> I do think you would benefit from the fullness of the truth,
> there is only one place to get that. You KNOW where that is.
> I go to a Baptist Church - Black Church at that so I do get some
> "Baptist" fire and brimstone truth from time to time when I'm at hunting camp.
> The closest Catholic Church is about 45 min. away.
> 
> Yes - you can take the class even if you don't intent to convert.
> This will do at least two things:
> 1) You will get the true teachings of The Catholic Church.
> 2) Give you more information and clarify false teachings by
> other denominations about The Church - about what people THINK they know
> about The Church, separating the facts from the fiction.
> 
> You will be well received not talked down to or be degraded in any way.


 
Just curious, how welcome do you think some of my questions that I have posted on this board would be welcomed in the class?

DB BB


----------



## Jeffriesw

Big7 said:


> In order Buddy.
> 
> Thank You for the !!!'s
> 
> I don't necessarily want to "convert" you.
> That is God doing that.
> I would like you to look at the facts so you can decide.
> I do think you would benefit from the fullness of the truth,
> there is only one place to get that. You KNOW where that is.
> I go to a Baptist Church - Black Church at that so I do get some
> "Baptist" fire and brimstone truth from time to time when I'm at hunting camp.
> The closest Catholic Church is about 45 min. away.
> 
> Yes - you can take the class even if you don't intent to convert.
> This will do at least two things:
> 1) You will get the true teachings of The Catholic Church.
> 2) Give you more information and clarify false teachings by
> other denominations about The Church  - about what people THINK they know
> about The Church,  separating the facts from the fiction.
> 
> You will be well received not talked down to or be degraded in any way.





Soild truth right there, I am one of those people who are ignorant of the Catholic Church myself and I wanted to learn the facts for myself, So what I have done is ask several of our Cathloic Brothers and Sisters questions via private E-Mail to answer the questions I have, I have recieved nothing but very gracious and polite responses to my questions and an invitation to ask all I want.
My wife and I were discussing this by phone the other day at lunch time and her boss (Doctor) overheard her and then called me himself. I have known him casually for several years and knew he was Catholic, but never thought to ask him anything before. He has invited me to Mass and also to the classes the have at his Church anytime I would like to go.


----------



## Jeffriesw

By the way, Welcome to Sally, 
Hope we have not scared you off yet!


----------



## Double Barrel BB

Christian Brothers and Sisters,

Just because we do not agree on what each others belief is, doesn't mean that we are not Christians... The most important thing to believe is this... Jesus Christ is the Only Son of God, and He died for our Sins, so that we would have everlasting life... As long as you believe that, I have no problem with you... I may not agree with minor stuff that you believe in, just like you may not believe in minor stuff that I believe in... I have learned a lot on this forum, and it has forced me to understand even more why I believe the way I believe...

God Bless,
DB BB


----------



## PJason

Double Barrel BB said:


> Just curious, how welcome do you think some of my questions that I have posted on this board would be welcomed in the class?
> 
> DB BB




Very welcome

As long as the questions are polite and asked in a respectful way.

I have recommended before that folks listen to a show called Catholic Answers Live. You can listen live from 6pm-8pm Monday thru Friday. They have some days when they only let non-Catholics call in to ask questions. Other days they have different topics or open forum. Anyone can call Catholic or Non-Catholic.

If you would like a link PM me.


----------



## rjcruiser

catholics, baptists, protestants  they are all man-made religions that don't make any sense to nobody






Everybody stay safe in the woods this weekend and may the deer gods shine down on us all


----------



## Sally

> [/By the way, Welcome to Sally,
> Hope we have not scared you off yet!
> QUOTE]Thanks, Swamp Runner.  I haven't been scared off just yet...


----------



## Big7

Double Barrel BB said:


> Just curious, how welcome do you think some of my questions that I have posted on this board would be welcomed in the class?
> 
> DB BB



Very welcome.

You will be very informed. There will be no "off limit"
questions.

That is whole purpose of the class.
To get you the truth about teachings of The Catholic Church. A lot of times - I would say "most" of the stuff
perpetuated by others is simply because of what they have been taught through sources other than Catholic.
That is a direct cause of the dissention and rhetoric.
You will NOT find ONE mean word about any other denomination in those classes.
It is ALL based on historical fact and scripture to back it up.

If you do decide to go - PLEASE let me know if ANYTHING
I told you about RCIA - is incorrect??? Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults - basically what it comes down to is Adult Confirmation. 

Protestants shouldn't have a problem with this because you are beyond the "age of reason or accountability".
Something we often hear regarding baptism and other
differences of opinion (often confused with the facts) among Christians.

This is a chance, as an adult, to get the facts straight.
Not a challenge - Just facts.
They won't let you get baptized again. The first one is THE ONLY one that counts, if the intent was there - doesn't even
matter the state of grace of the baptizer. True 

We could go down the road of " getting baptized every time you join a new Church" but we don't need to go there now.


----------

