# 12GA FH- Hairy Shotgun/Rifle-



## hubel458

Just visiting here to tell about our 
12GA From ****videos on Youtube, and a 
little info about our ongoing work. If you 
have questions please ask. Here is pic of our 
12GA FH cartridge  on the right. 2nd picture
is the Savage 210, we shot it from. we put
on heavy barrel and weighted gun.Ed Hubel 

The videos are called-- 

Grandpa's First Shot
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Grandpa's Cannon
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## hubel458

The first 12GA FH was Robs on AR forum, my Savage was 2nd.
Here is closeup pic of Rob's 12GA FH, a Borchardt falling block 
action. Real nice. In picture is along brass 12ga case with one 
of Rob's 2000gr bore rider, solid, streamlined slugs. Ed


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## bighonkinjeep

I've got a couple of questions Ed,
 Do you have any idea in FT/LBS what the free recoil of that beast is?
What kind of velocitys are you getting with various weights of slugs? I'm especially curious about that 2000gr job

If bigger is better then thats gotta be one of the best


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## hubel458

Moderate Hunting speeds-That 2000gr Rob gets 14-1500.
In my Savage 600gr 2700, 870gr 2300. Hot loads are more.
Rob's gun is over 25 lbs so recoil isn't to bad. My savage
is 23 lbs. My Nef chambered for long case is 15 lbs.Ed


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## bighonkinjeep

A 600gr bullet at 2700 it looks like you found the solution to our energy problems.  2700x2700x600/450436=THUMP


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## hubel458

At least in one spot on whatever target.
This experimenting and testing is the greatest
hobby there ever was. Ed


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## hubel458

Here is picture of a neat scaled up Sharps replica
that would handle out 12GA FH and my 700HE.
That outside hammer looks great. From a magazine
article in Very High Power...Ed


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## boneboy96

that'll git-er done!


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## nhancedsvt

may i ask why???


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## hubel458

Fun- Some like hopped up cars, tractors, boats, horses....
We like hopped up guns.  The challenge of doing
the impossible, the experimenting, something special that
only 1 of million does. Ed


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## nhancedsvt

hubel458 said:


> Fun- Some like hopped up cars, tractors, boats, horses....
> We like hopped up guns.  The challenge of doing
> the impossible, the experimenting, something special that
> only 1 of million does. Ed



ohhhhh ok. didn't know if you were planning on hunting big foot or something?


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## GAX

Wow!!


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## 60Grit

That's a neat little squirrel gun you boys have put together. Very impressive.


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## hubel458

AS 'Big Mortie' says, "A perfect squill gun"..

" A charging squill is got trouble"....Ed


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## hubel458

Here are some of the variety of slugs pictured,
that we have tested in 12ga. Ed


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## discounthunter

been a follower of your work for some time. thank you for turning grown men back into kids hoping to get their first rimfire for x-mas.lol


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## hubel458

Glad to help get us all turned to childlike curiosity.
Here is picture of a dart type 12ga slug Rob made. Body
is aluminum, it has a heavy tungsten carbide insert in the
nose. The TC in the nose is about 5 times denser than AL.
Total length is 2.35 inches, weight about 950 gr. The .75" long
insert a real tight type fit. Heat AL, put in insert, cools, locks on.
It is fairly streamlined, yet has wide meplat for penetration
in game. Flat points penetrate straighter in game.
It is hollow inside in the back, behind insert which puts the
center of gravity way up front, it should fly straight even from
a smoothbore. They are fast to make and material
less expense than copper.In pic is a copper and a brass 600
cal slugs for comparison. Dart/slug on right has insert.Ed


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## hubel458

Here are more samples of nice 12ga slugs.....Here is pic of 
ones RG Henson sent. Jacketed 12ga. 715gr hollowpoints,
on the right and in front a jkt 675gr hollowbase.
RG's number 1-770-366-4846. These will be great for
shorter plastic and brass cases as well as long cases.
Other slugs in pic, in the back, left to right
Foster 436gr- Dixie 600gr- 750gr brass- my 750gr hollowbase
brass, and  a  hollowpoint I put a lightweight filler in the nose
for streamlining..Ed


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## bighonkinjeep

Hubel 458 I find your shotgun experimentation very interesting.I've been trying to figure out how to load sabot slugs using muzzleloader bullets for a rifled slug barrel. I cant find a source for the components used by the major ammo manufacturers. I did find an interesting article on duplex sabots a while back but there was no mention of components used.  Any Ideas or suggestions?


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## DURAMAXLT

I've only found one saboted slug that will group consistantly in my savage 210 and they are HIGH the Remington 385 gr. cheapest I can get them is $20 for 5 they group real well at 100 yards but drop over a foot at 200 yards start out at 1875 fps do your experiments group well?


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## hubel458

I was only able to get sabots by buying Federal sabot loads and
cutting them out of the cases. Just for testing in our
long brass case..Three shot group, about 50 yds, a 4"
group with bad eyes and peep sights.Running about 3300.
They were 300 gr I think. With a scope , good eyes, should get
4" at 100yds. But like you say they are pricy. Can do just as fast
and good with Brenekke KOs that are less than 3 bucks for
5, and I took them out of factory cases and loaded our plastic
cases, and got 2700 out of the 1887 with the long heavy
smooth barrel.  Also seem to shoot out of rifled NEF ok.Ed


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## hubel458

Here is picture of our case sectioned next to a
thin factory brass case to show the great strength.
And our case in pic was fired 35 times and shows
no stretching. Ed


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## bighonkinjeep

well if your cases aren't stretching I wouldn't cut up any more of em. maybe you just need a double charge of powder to stretch em a little . 
Just being a wise guy.Stay safe
BHJ


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## hubel458

Nice thing with long cases is big primer so we can ignite slow
rifle powders. With 90% min fill of those powders to develope 
loads you can't double charge. And with faster rifle powders
we take up the space with 12ga wads.And we even tested to 
develope plastic case slugs, 3 fast rifle powders that got us
400 fps  more  than factory magnum Buckhammer loads, at
the same or less  peak pressures.Lab tested and verified loads.
So much easier than trying to get little better velocites using
real fast shotgun powders...Ed


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## hubel458

Testing 715gr jacketed hollowpoint from RG Henson in Savage 210.
With 30 inch barrel, long brass 3.85" case, big primer.
Slightly hairy load 290gr RL22--2700 fps. Shot moderate load 
of 300gr W-860 -- 2400 fps for 3 shot group of 3" at 50
yards with my bad eyes and peep sights. They shoot nice, they go
into target straight.. Other nice thing the price from RG,
for customers getting in on his first run, $1.25 plus shipping.
That is less than half of what other big bore jkt bullets cost.
Call him for some great slugs. They are great like
the Dixie slugs. Ed


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## hubel458

Lookee what another santa sent me.
A regular BMG case on the left, and
a straight BMG case on the right, and it
CAME FROM THE MANUFACTURER THAT WAY.

It is primer cartridge for large guns and howitzers.
It is used in those guns/cannons that have powder in big bags.
It is filled with powder and inserted into cannon breach and
when fired sets off the larger charge. On some cannon breaches
they have an automatic feed for these with a huge 40 round
drum magazine.  This on is marked IVI 89  C67.  IVI is Canadian.
On these breaches it is held by collet fingers for head space
and for ejection.

Ok, there are many thousands more of these out there than the
PROP cases I showed before. We need to find few barrels of these
and have Rob, etal, put on rims.... no annealing.....no fireforming,
just slight resize to  12GA FH.  Please help if you know of any.
They would save so much work and time..And even though fired
the bases are perfectly straight, another plus.....Ed


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## hubel458

Here is a picture of RG's jacketed 715gr slugs in various 
loads.First are 2.75" and 3" factory foster slugs\ for
comparison. 3rd is jkt HP in 3.5" plastic case, 4th in a
3" brass RMC case. 5th in a 3.5" brass case with small 
primer, 6th in our long brass 3.85" case, big primer.
Top hairy load in  long case in Savage, 2900..Ed


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## hubel458

Please notice in the picture above, cases loaded with
the 715 gr jacketed slugs, the 3rd and 4th ones.
They both have same 90gr of 4227, same number of 
wads, shoot at 1700 in 24" NEF barrel. 3rd plastic is 
3.5" case, the 4th brass is a 3" RMC. Both have shotgun
primers.The 5th  longer case is a 3.5" strong
brass one I made from a PROP case, and when I put 
in primer bushing, I set it up for shotgun primer. I
will test it with 4227 powder, 600gr and 715 gr slugs.
Also in a couple months Rob, who's idea the 12GA FH 
was will be able to deliver the super strong 12GA FH
cases made from BMG brass. And the they will be
headstamped, all done by his CNC machine.Ed


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## hubel458

RIP on  AR Big bore forum is doing 835 Mossy and 1400gr Darwin slugs.
A 14.5 pound Ulti-Mag. The hollow part of the butt is filled with about 5.5 lbs of lead shot and epoxy. Has 4X Sightron in QRW rings. Do 3.5" plastic hulls with the Darwin in it first. It balances on the trigger. Loading the magazine with 4 and one up the spout will add about 1.25 pounds if the 5 rounds are "Darwins," and move the balance point to the front of the triggerguard. 
It is heavier rifled 24" chromoly alloy barrel.

Brett in MN has Mossy 835, only with smoothbore barrel and gets
1oz finned plastic tail Ballistic Products slug to 2300 fps,
using shotgun powder.Ed


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## hubel458

Still testing 8ga I have setup in the Enfield.
It has a long smooth barrel. Those 8ga
heavy plastic cases are great. Fire them 4 times with 
no resizing. Here is pic of slugs used in 8ga..
One and two are 1015gr hollowbase. Three and 4 are 
875gr hollowbase. On four the cushion base is cut off
so I can use card wad and have more room for
powder.Ed


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## bighonkinjeep

Darn Ed when do you put doors and windows on those slugs and try to launch a monkey into orbit?
BHJ


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## hubel458

We got our RMC  3.5"  brass 12ga cases. These are turned
cases using shotgun primer. They have nice thick base,
and a good radius in the corner. Got a Brenekke OK 437 gr 
slug to 2800 fps, a 540gr Hammerhead slug to 2450. got 600gr
Dixie to 2300, the 715gr RG jacketed to 2130, and a 1400gr
Darwin to 1400 plus. Tested in NEF. Shot one case 15 times
and still going strong, tight primer, with loads running about
20- 24,000 psi.I have pics of cases soon, and we also will
test these brass ones and 3.5" plastic in 12ga Encore 
Prohunter..Ed


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## hubel458

Here is picture of RMC 3.5" cases with variety of slugs,
locked on wad slugs and sabots. There are 3 of our long cases
in back for comparison. The RMC turned cases have shotgun
primer. Case # 4 has 437gr slug in BPI SABOT( finally hard sabots 
in 12ga for reloading), #5 437gr Brenekke KO slug, #6 540gr 
Hammerhead slug, #7 600gr Dixie hard slug, #8 RG's 715gr 
jacketed, #9 750gr solid brass. Ed


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## hubel458

Here is picture of a 12ga hard discarding sabot you can get
for reloading, the BPI.  From Ballistic products. In picture
is sabot with a 437gr Hornady Great Plains 50cal slug  I put
in it. Also the 410 gr and 385gr Great Plains work.
Finally able to load your own instead of paying 3-5 bucks
each for loaded rounds.You can use the 500 S&W bullets also
as well as shorter 50 cal blackpowder slugs... Ed


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## bighonkinjeep

Finally, I personally talked to every bullet manufacturer I could about making sabots for their muzzleloader bullets to adapt them for 12ga use.  BPI was the only company to show interest. I hope they make a fortune helping the shooting public out. I also found an interesting article on duplex sabots to adapt ML bullets but it didnt have enough details for me to duplicate the process.
Keep up the good work ED
BHJ


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## hubel458

Been testing the Encore with the Nef loads. Barrel breech is
one inch same as muzzle, where the NEF is 1.200".
 It has dovetails cut out in bottom of the barrel for
the nuts for the forearm screws. ... At the bottom of dove tail
there is only .060" thickness. Before reaming had back one fill
welded as it was where the taper for the forcing cone ended up
with 3.5" chamber. I load it with 10 gr less powder than the NEF
on all different slugs and weights. Like the BPI sabot in 3.5" 
plastic in NEF, 437 gr slug, 120gr 4227, 2400 fps, and in Encore
110gr 4227, 2270 fps. In 3.5" RMC brass case, same sabot/slug
in NEF 140gr 4227, 2600+ fps,Encore 130gr 4227, 2500.
The Encore is now 12 lbs, with hollow in butt and recesses in
forearm with lead shot.In pic you see NEF And Encore with RMC
brass cases started in chambers. Ed


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## hubel458

See what's possible, original Savage 210 action/stock
the one I have our long case in. You can lengthen
magazine in the plastic stock for up to 3.5" RMC brass
cases, also 3.5" plastic cases. And you can open up
bottom of the action to match, and the other things
I did on the port, bolt travel, etc to feed cases. 
I did mine with heavy wood stock in singleshot.
Using original plastic stock you weight the hollow butt.
Trigger assembly on these is back to leave space for this.
In picture you see stock original and stock mag longer.
Second picture is a 3.5" brass case and slug overall
length 3.7", in longer magazine. Brett in MN, who did this
first used the regular follower and mag spring ok,
it feeds ok for him. .. Ed


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## hubel458

Info to help loading BPI sabots in plastic,ok to use plastic
overwad over powder, but should use cardboard card and
nitro wads above that below the BPI sabot. Sabot doesn't
tear up and accuracy much better. Personally I use
cards over powder and nitro wads, And with used cases
roll crimping onto the thin edge of sabot is uneven, so with
my used cases I set the sabot and slug to right height and
just redo the 6 point star crimp real hard, and the middle of
all the crimp sectors set right on the flat nose of the slug
in the sabot. I also do the same with RG's 715gr hollowpoint
with the crimp sectors right on the hollowpoint in used cases.
Roll crimping holds RG's slug in ok but its taper of the ogive and
smoothness it doesn't open crimp all the way around when 
fired. The star crimp set slug at same height so you can get 
the same amount of powder. With RMC brass these are not 
problems but with brass to get good feeding from mag rounding
front edge of mouth helps. Sectioned picture of RMC on right 
next to our long original case to show how well it is built 
thick and strong. One of cases has 20 firings, still good..Ed


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## hubel458

What others  are doing hopping up loads and experimenting.
Brett in MN uses a Mossy 835 12ga smoothbore turkey gun, but
it is backbored 10ga size all the way out to end and has 10ga size
choke, and he uses 12ga AQ 441gr slug with locked on basewad, from
BPI. Using top rib  bead sight only he can hit a pail 5 times in a row at
70 yds.Amazing accuracy for overbored barrel. He uses BPI  X12X seal
plastic wad, two 1/4" white felt wads, thin card then the AQ slug,
with 65gr of Longshot getting  2200 fps. 3.5" new cases with
roll crimp.......I asked  him check it with a scope on it sometime.

NFG from Greybeard and Shotgunworld with pump Mossy and 18.5"
with slug barrel. He gets a 525gr Lyman over 1800 fps with
80gr of 4759/4227 powder. Hard alloy mix  Lyman and shot one through
17" of pine. Shown in the pic below it mushroomed to .800" and only
lost 8gr weight. It is a wasp waisted slug that is shot from a 12ga
regular WW12 shotcup. The skirt of the slug collapsed into the underside
of the nose. Many guys say that these are as accurate as most
other stuff  used. He used 3" plastic, PGS wad over powder and
WW12 wadcup with slug it. He cuts wadcup petals back to length
of the Lyman.In pic on left you see the Lymans with hollowbase up
and the shape of it when starting out.

Ok I am going to get Lymans to test and Longshot to test.
Got to see if the Longshot will get further up in velocity
than Blue Dot. Ed


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## hubel458

Here is a Savage 210 with bottom of action opened up
toward the back, to take cases with 3.5" overall length.
Slug Warrior on Shotgun World did it. Is similiar job the
Brett in MN did, but he made his opening 3.7". I measured
mine and they can be opened to 3.95". They also milled
the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer
cases. Ed


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## hubel458

Here is information and reason for keeping and milling
the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer
cases.Rim guides are angled in from the sides of the opening
toward back. As the bolt pushes top case in the mag forward the
back of case and rim comes to where the tapers widen out so
the case then slides up in front of the bolt.I'm fixing up my
2nd Savage I have set up for my second 700H 3.25" belted case.
Just to see how it will work and along with other guys
doing it, get the info out to people.
This work on the stock/action can be done in a vertical
mill or good drill press. To use 3.5" plastic the opening on 
the action and magazine needs 3.25", for 2.875"" brass long loaded
3.5", if 3.5" brass about 3.7", if 3.5" brass long loaded, 3.95".
By long loaded I mean a slug like the Dixie 600gr that protrudes
up to .4".The 730 gr flat wide nose slug protrudes 1/8".
You also have to widen and smooth the ramp going into the
front bridge so case lifts smoothly on the way into chamber.Ed


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## hubel458

We get asked about putting brakes on the NEF Ultra.
There is the concept called the internal brake that works
nearly as good as expansion brake, with less back noise.
Rob on AR did a couple with bunch of  holes in the barrel
in the end with the last 1.5" bored out .025" where holes
go. Also many want more velocity in NEf and I added on
a barrel section to mine. Combining Ideas we add  smooth
9" section of bore extension, that is same as groove diameter
and 1.5" end of that for internal brake. Eight  1/8" holes
top and same 45 degees to each side.And we have over
a 100 fps in velocity gain. And with card or wad behind load
it will seal pressure going from rifled section to smooth. 
And these types of holes won't bother wads or sabots.
My extension is a foot longer and gets 150 fps extra.
No need for brake in mine as the gun is 17 lbs with extra bbl.
Here is Rob's two he fixed up, and is shooting.He has
them reamed out longer for long 3.85" case, weight added.Ed


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## hubel458

Here is a picture of porting holes in a 10ga NEF
heavy long smooth barrel. Bbl 30" and 1.080" muzzle
diameter behind the screw in choke area. This come
with slightly extended screw in choke and is first
10ga with long barrel as heavy as my NEF 12ga FH
short barrel was.. OR the short NEF 10 gauges
with heavy barrel..It came with full and mod chokes.
The other 10ga I tested earlier, only .960" at muzzle.
I cut choke off and put it back in leaving the barrel
an open bore for slugs and leaving an area 1.2" long
for an internal brake to drill all the holes in like
Rob did with NEFs in his picture. Now the 1.2" long 
area where holes are is bigger than needed for 10 ga
so a reamer in the making will solve that and solve a 
major big bore project for me and others who asked
me about using the short NEF 10ga for upgrade, which
I didn't encourage putting all that work on a short 
barrel gun, with the amounts of powder that will be
burnt in....are you ready.......THE 8GA FH.......
I have 8ga FH loads tested in reworked Enfield.....Ed


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## hubel458

More info on the heavy barreled gun we plan on
making 8 gauge from. Nef SB2 103, 30" barrel, 
regular stock. 220 bucks.  100 bucks for shop to
ream out to 8 ga smoothbore.  Needs the 80 dollar
thumbhole stock. Nice deal for a modern 8ga, using
heavy duty plastic 3.3" long cases. I fired 6-8000
ft lb loads in one I made on Enfield, 4 times reloaded
without resizing cases.
Here is other project suggested by Boomie
on the AR big bore forum,  the 16GA FH.
Cases made by me from bmg brass. Took 5 swagings, and
two turnings on my case spinner lathe.Two Annealings
Got couple cases made, in picture our 3.5" case and factory
16ga plastic case slug load. I'm getting test gun working
now and as for a supply of cases you all will have to 
get with RMC if you want to rechamber a 16ga..Ed


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## hubel458

Here is picture of my NEF 12GA FH as it is now,
A while back I got tired of short barrel and
added a foot on to it. Used breech end of left over
Savage and a sleeve. Lined up rifling and it has 
same twist and number of rifling.  Hard way to do 
it. No need for rifling, or extra line up work.
Run many loads and it adds 150 fps with VV110,
4759, and 4227 powders. Adds about a 100 with
Blue Dot, and HS 7. 

Next one will be done different and easier.
Next one will be a smoothbore add on piece of
groove diameter, 10-12 inches long, make it one
piece, 1 or 1 1/16" threads,about 1.2" diameter.
Threaded 1.5" long on original barrel, and into
add on piece, and will look like a brake and you 
could put in internal brake in the end.Ed


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## hubel458

Here is picture Stevens Revelation 350 16ga
now a 16GA FH.  It got a 385 gr to 2000,
which is good for gun without a real heavy
barrel. I lengthened chamber for the
3.5" brass cases pictured that I made from
BMG brass. Anyone doing this can have cases
made by RMC. Gun is weighted to 11 lbs.
Action can handle more if barrel heavier. Ed


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## hubel458

Here is picture of the bolt for my big gun, the 700HE.
It is holding a 700HE long case. The caseholder extraction system
can headspace a BMG rimless case,no belt, so you could
put on a 12ga barrel, straighten case more, from .700 to .729"
and have the rimless 12ga. Could straighten case for a
.750" bore, even to 10ga(.775") with a little thinning of the
top one inch of the case. Experimenting is interesting
to say the least. 700 slugs in pic are 1000gr Woodleigh,
1000gr PA, 825gr Copperhead Custom(CC), 770gr FP CC, 
1000gr HP CC, 825gr HP CC..Ed


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## hubel458

There is a new heavy barreled rifled slug gun out,
the Rossi Model S12 1230S. It will handle our heavier
loads like the NEF. And it can have chamber lengthened
for 3.5" plastic and RMC brass 12ga cases. Ed


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## hubel458

The BPI sabot is tending toward small diameter.
With a .512" slug it measures . 727"---So I run slug
into die and reduced it .020". It is lead, swaged easy.
Shot a BPI sabot with 385gr Great plains slug in 700HE
great big gun pictured above. That Great plains slug
was reduced .020".  With 300gr of super fast ball
powder blend in 3.85" case got over 4500. 

Using slugs with locked on bases and RG's hollowbase
jacketed slug in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the 1887
Win  levergun. RG's 670 gr HB- 2500 . Brenekke KO
435gr- 2700, Lightfield 460 gr- 2600 . Even got
a 385gr in BPI sabot to target straight.Levergun has 
34" smooth barrel and with chamber for 3.5" long
cases it is run as singleshot. Barrel is a tight smoothbore
going from .726" to .722".  Took out lifter and other
stuff and put in a bottom style extractor I built that
is operated by the lever at bottom of opening
stroke. Then take cases out with fingers, thus able to
handle long cases in a short action.Makes a real old timey,
neat looking, single shot blaster. Also have testing all done
and loads set for 12ga Encore.  It is set up for 3.5" plastic
and brass cases for strong loads. I like to sell it to someone
who likes the style. If interested contact me.Ed


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## bighonkinjeep

I've been following your progress with great interest Ed keep it up.
Is that 4500 a typo? I kinda figured somthin' would melt or fly apart.
BHJ


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## hubel458

I glued slug in sabot to get a reading, and now slug
is inside big bundle slabwood. That's not a typo.That
gun and 700HE case can do 80,000 psi and extract fine.
Sabot probably atomised when hitting bundle.

Before I posted about testing a NEF in 10ga with
a medium heavy barrel. The newer one is better.
It is the one I showed  the ported barrel previously.
I did some  10ga FH testing in that newer, real
heavy barreled, NEF 10ga, that is going to soon be an
8GA FH, after reaming out. The internal brake set up
on the end as shown in picture above works great.
It stopped all of the muzzle rise and cut recoil 
Gun now is 14 lbs and has thumbhole stock.
Top load with 3.5" plastic case, 765gr slug,
135gr of 4227, 2200 fps, 8200 ft lbs.Ed


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## hubel458

28GA FH new slug.. The Lyman cast 20ga slug made to
fit in a 20ga shotcup for 20 ga slug hunters, works perfect
in the 28GA FH brass case.  It is a hollowbases hourglass
shaped 362 gr slug. No wadcups or wads needed, loaded
right on powder. It is the slug you buy the molds to cast
your own or you can buy them from guys who cast for
sale. I use slow rifle powders in  case so no air space,
they fill to the slugs. I got  2900 with moderate case
expansion and it hits target straight on, from a smooth
28ga heavy barrel on 695 Mossberg bolt action.

Other new info on primers. Some of the guns can't have the
firing pins or hammers beefed up easy like my Enfields
With some magnum primers with hard cups you get delayed
ignition if hammer doesn't have perfect hit and high strength.
One test with a small diameter case/bore that any primer will
ignite slow powders fine with good firing pin spring would 
show delayed ignition with shotgun battery cup style 209
CCI Mag and 209 Federal Mag primers, and when I tested them
in cases with just the primers, they only put in a small dent
when they fired, but WIN 209, REM 209, RWS 209(used in 
Brenekkes, Lightfields, Hastings), dented in much more when 
firing just the primer. And with the smaller bore you had fire out
the end of the barrel, so you could compare primer strength
visually. The REM 209 was as good or better than CCI and FED
209 Mag Primers. The WIN and RWS was close behind. We put
the REM in same case/gun where that  we had delayed ignition
and it fired instantly, no delay. The two mag primer brands have
the primer insert in cup rounded a lot and little harder metal,
and the other 3 metal cup insert is almost flat and slightly
softer. It is easier to get a better more solid strike and dent.
I always figured mag primers were best in our hopped
up shotgun loads but not anymore. It took a while but I finally got 
everything around for proper test. Hopped up loads(regular also)
we have talked about, use REM 209, where the firing pins
and hammers can't be strengthened. Even loads with Longshot,
Blue Dot, Steel, HS6-7, etc.
Hope this helps.....ED


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture my NEF, soon to be, 8ga gun.
It weighs 15 lbs. The hollow butt and hollows
in the forearm are weighted. It has a neat recoil
barrel ring I added so forearm stays put.
It has internal brake on barrel that I picture 
earlier in thread with the porting holes. 
 Second picture is a Lyman 520 gr slug on the right
that we are testing . They go in regular 12ga shotcups,
and many folks have good accuracy with them, even
in smooth bores. They are hollowbase nose-heavy 
design. These are the ones you cast your own.
And there are guys casting some for sale.
You see two in wadcups on the right.
On the left is my prototype of the Lyman
style, of 900gr for our 8GA FH. Going to get a
mold made. The base of it will fit the 8ga shotcup
used in the kiln gun loads, and the front will be our
smoothbore 8ga size, .832-835". I designed this
as the flat ended kiln slug without a hollow
base and heavy in the front, wasn't  designed
to give 100yd accuracy in a smoothbore. Ed


----------



## hubel458

The picture is some aluminum cored jacketed slugs

RG made, weighing 385 gr. Full .730" diameter, hollowpoint,

and one I filled nose with glue gun. Fairly streamlined. 3600 in

the Savage with our long case..Slug is nice and long, 

1.22" HP and 1.4" with plastic I put in the nose.

In Nef with RMC 3.5" brass case 2700, 3.5" plastic 2500. Ed


----------



## hubel458

RIP on AR forums been testing starter powders loads, with
shotgun primers,with Blue Dot starter and HBMG main load. And
I just tested some variety of ones myself.
Doing some testing with starter powder, 15gr Blue Dot, with
slower powders that fill the cases with minimum wads.
Tested in 3.5" RMC case in NEF with shotgun primer,
with 36" added to barrel.Remember I have extra foot of bbl.

These 4 top loads expanded case, where I check it, just above
thick base section to .811" from .807" resized.

1000gr jacketed, 230gr HBMG, 1800 fps, 7200 ft lbs,
with 1/8" card and 1/4" felt wad. 

715gr jkt, 270gr HBMG, 2200, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.

600gr Dixie, 250 gr Retumbo, 2400, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.

385gr jkt AL core, 250 gr RL25,2900, 7200 ft lbs.
This is faster than lighter loads in NEF, using 4227 powder.

Now the starter powder loads, which a few guys like, increase
powder speeds so that HBMG acts like RL25. In first example,
with 1000 gr in RMC case you couldn't use 230gr of RL25
as that would expand RMC brass too much and stick the case.
A few guys have found that slow powder, with starter
powder is easiest for 1000gr and heavier loads.

On another note, I've heard around the grapevine that if 
enough of us ask for NEF to make available a 12ga Ultra with
a 28" rifled bull barrel that they would do it.Start calling
folks, maybe do some good. Just tell them these new sabot
and fullbore slug loads need more barrel to get the velocity
out of them. 1-866-776-9292. Ed


----------



## bighonkinjeep

Thats what I like to hear, A manufacturer that will take on a wildcat project and run with it. Did they say how many orders they need for a production run?


----------



## hubel458

I have no idea how many requests they need.
And they won't tell  you either.
Here is picture of 28GA FH brass case with the 350gr
Lyman cast slug. It is the slug you cast to use 
originally in 20ga shot cups, for slug hunting. 
It is nose heavy and will work in smooth bores.
Brass 3.25" cases from Rocky Mtn Cartridge. It 
will work in NEF/H&R 28ga modern break action guns
that cost 150 bucks, 26" barrel, you lengthen chamber
for the brass case. Good hunting loads would 
be 2000 fps and the gun with a little weight added
and good pad would handle it fine. Had a few guys ask
about 28ga slug shooting, here is away..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is a double projectile load that would make a 
good defense load. Two Brenekkes doubled up in  RMC
case in the  NEF. 85 gr of 4227 pushing  2  one 
ounce KO slugs about 1600. Bottom slug has seal.

Also found a way to adapt extra slugs to 10ga. A
515 gr Lyman slug for use in 12ga wadcup, in my
10ga,  using thickwall 10ga BPI steel no slit wadcup
shortened and Lyman bottomed out in it, so it
is like a discard on impact sabot slug.  Like Lightfield
and Hastings. I shaved the bottom diameter of Lyman
so it would fit tight. Similar deal for 16ga using BPI 16ga
no slit heavy shot cup and 20ga Lyman. Now we have it
so that 2 Lymans can fit 10,12,16,20,28 ga....Ed






PS- I ask all of you for a favor. Would you please go
to the  thehighroad.us  forums, join in and support them.
The owner has had original Highroad domain stolen from
him and he is in court to get it back. He is in
the right and if you folks show up,good moral support.
And if you can stand it until court rules stay away from
the first highroad and ask your friends to do the same.


----------



## hubel458

Here is 12ga  prototype cushioned base sabot I put 
together to show how heavy of powder seal
and heavy cushion base that is needed. That
eliminates the blowouts and damage that was
happening to  sabots unless I put a  card 
under sabot. Just used a Brenekke seal/cushion
base, epoxied to bottom of sabot. Even fired one
and it got out the barrel and 437gr slug hit
 target straight. Ed


----------



## bighonkinjeep

So Ed I've got a couple of questions. Are you able to produce a sabot that functions as well as those from ballistic products?
 Are these simply for velocity/trajectory testing or have you been able to get some decent accuracy from them?
 thanks BHJ


----------



## hubel458

I can't produce them, in volumne or for sale.
I just wanted see if a better base ispossible
so  just put couple together for looks and to
test.  Now with the better base they should do better 
than the tore up bases  guys were experiencing, with
bad groups. It is bitter cold now but I will make
few more and check for
accuracy in spring .

Some 8ga experimenting and info. The 8ga chambers
I have are set up to fire the regular 8ga 
size cases, and also REM kiln cases with bases 
turned smaller, where the extra short basecup
is formed over the inside cup.Just reduce to the
diameter that it chambers ok and regular case 
doesn't expand very much fired in same chamber.
This idea came from UK 8ga hunters that found
it was easier to get kiln cases. Now the other 
case in 8ga available is the WIN kiln case and 
ones I've seen are only single thickness basecup,
 but they have the step formed in them to match
the kiln case belt size. Now you can't turn them
down any to fit my chamber,  BUT you can swage
them down .012" in a die with a lttle lube on the
basecup. Examining them they do expand much more
than the doubled up REMs.I fired REMs 4-5 times
with bases expanding .002", the WIN I did
expanded .005" in one shot.Easiest to use 
heavier built REMs as they are only  70cents
primed and good for 4-5 shots, 
no resizing, with semi-hairy 8,000 ft lb loads.Ed


----------



## hubel458

I glued up 3 of 12ga prototype sabots. At 25yds( the 50yd range
is in the water and snow) And the three with 437gr .512"
slugs I did one 2" group with peep sights and bad eyes.
Running about 2400 fps from RMC case in the NEF 12GA FH
Shot 3 of my 28ga FH with Lyman 360gr at 2100, from
the Enfield 28GA FH, and got same size group.Real windy
when testing . Going cold and ready to snow again.
Shot a 600 grain Dixie hardened heatreated slug, in Savage 
in our long case at 2900 though  two-- 1/4" steel plates with
2" of wood between them. Made big hole.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Before it got cold again got little more testing done.
I shot 8ga Lyman 900gr wasp-style slug out of
the Enfield at 2350. I made it from heat treated
lead REM kiln gun slugs, and  it went through 6 foot
of hardwood slabs in my backstop. Hit target square,
behind chrono, which is great from smoothbore.
It is hollowbase and seems very stable.And real hard.
I shot 3 shot group, with 12ga 525gr Lyman, in 87
smoothbore long barrel levergun, At 25 yards they 
all made  hole like cloverleaf. Used 3.5" RMC brass, with
Lyman in a WW12-114 shotcup, going 2100.Now my
87 smooth barrel is .722" at muzzle,  .726" at breech,
so it gives tight support to shotcup and Lyman slug,
for fairly accurate load.....Ed


----------



## tv_racin_fan

WOOT WOOT!!

So are we about ready to go dump truck hunting??? Sounds about like you are dealing with a 75cal anti tank weapon. I can't even begin....


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of one of  RIP's NEFs  12GA FH, with
a Vias brake installed. He had smith ream out a
50cal  one to let 12ga slugs pass through...Ed


----------



## Big7

What does FH mean?

I build some mean stuff too...
Just with rifle bullets though.


----------



## hubel458

FH means From  He!!. Rob on AR forums picked name.
The cartridge concept was his original idea.
I have my mean 700 belted case which is more power
than 12GA FH. Much more at 22,000 ft lbs top load.

The Vias brake bored out in above picture will help
RIP with recoil as he wants to shoot all heavy slugs
in the NEF Ultra. Guys like the Vias brakes.They
can be bored out and fitted to anything. 
I just like ported internal brakes and more gun weight.

Here are some results( had 1 nice day) with 8 gauge and 
10ga light slug  loads of my testing. I call them my real
big bore varmint loads. A 770 gr slug in 8ga fired in
Enfield at 2400 all 3 shots nearly touching at 20 yds.
A 515 gr Lyman, NEF 10ga at 2400, same tight group
at 20yds. Lyman is originally for 12ga, but is fit in 
10ga thickwall BPI shotcup cut off and slug glued in so
it is like a impact discarding sabot. Both smoothbores.

Smaller  varmint load. NEF rifled  12ga with RG's 385gr
aluminum cored jacketed HP slug at 2700, 2 overlapping
and one half inch away using RMC 3.5" case. Ed


----------



## hubel458

The three slug loads tested above are real
light recoiling, easy to shoot. I call 
them my big bore, varmint slugs as they are
light for the bore size. Here is picture of
the 3 slugs for comparison. 1st is 770gr in 8ga wadcup,
second is 515 Lyman in 10ga wadcup, third is the
12ga 385gr HP with aluminum core. The 8ga wadcup
loses its petals going out the barrel, but 
hollowbase 770gr slug stays straight.The 515gr Lyman
in the 10ga thickwall wadcup is also as a unit
nose heavy and runs straight. The Lyman is held in
cup with little plastic mender glue, so that it
acts like a Hammerhead and  Lightfield slugs.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is what a 600gr super hardened Dixie slug
at 29-3000 plus does to two mild steel plates with
2" wood between them. Fired from our long case
in the Savage.Two plates are soft mild steel.
In hole nice and round.  Out, in back plate jagged.
Anyone interested in  the 12ga Encore
with 3.5" chambers, that I tested loads in,
it is on Gunbroker..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Shot the NEF 8GA FH. That is the heavy barrel NEF 
that was a 10ga.. I bored it out to 8ga and chambered
it for the heavy duty 8ga case. 770gr at 2200 out of
29" barrel. End of barrel has internal brake with 24
porting holes and with weighted thumbhole stock,
it handles recoil easy.Will have picture soon.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is my 12GA FH Savage 210 with thumbhole
stock, I put on in place of first one that cracked.
Along with weight and heavy barrel handles recoil 
great. It is a Boyd and came inleted for Savage
112, and I re-did inleting to fit 210 and
heavy barrel,and got rid of  monte carlo 
outline.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of RIP's two 12GA FH NEFs.
Both are the 12ga Ultra Slug Guns.
One has Vias brake, other expansion chamber.
He calls it his golf ball launcher. Ed


----------



## hubel458

I found a shotgun primer that will ignite rifle powders,
like RL15-19, IMR 4064,4198, etc. With regular shotgun 
primers I had to use Blue Dot starter.
But not with these.....They are the industrial
shotgun primers used in the 8ga kiln gun cases. I use 
these cases with basecup reduced in my 8 gauges.
When I set up first 8ga I fired the primers only to test
firing function(cases came with primer), then I put
regular 209 primers in to test loads, with 4759 powder.
Found box of WIN paper case kiln 3oz loads and took one 
apart and noticed it had 94gr of some ball powder.
I wondered what powder is and how a regular shotgun primer
could ignite that, based on our need for starter powder
using regular rifle powders. So I fired that industrial 
primer and flame and sparks came out of 8ga NEF barrel
2-3 feet. Put a regular primer in same case and flame
just a few inches. So I took REM kiln case with original
REM industrial primer and 2-3 feet of flame,and put regular
primer in and just few inches of flame. If anyone got
info on th powder used and how to get these primers,
let us know.  I took some out of 8ga and put in 12ga plastic.
Using these hairy industrial primers today fired 180gr 
of RL-15, in 12GA FH NEF, in 3.5" plastic cases with
437gr Brenekke KO slug. Got perfect ignition, no starter.
140gr with 600gr dixie, perfect ignition.
Also I have the 12ga Encore that we tested loads
in, on Gunbroker, in shotgun singleshot section.Ed


----------



## hubel458

I always felt that if some company would make powders like 7383
available it would be great. 7383 ignites fine with regular 
shotgun primers in 12ga, but it is surplus and only a few of
us have it.It is a powder that has a lot of the deterrent inside
the of the material, not all near the outside like 99% of
all other powders whether spherical, tubular, or flake.
This allows easier ignition, but yet the deterrent still can
control the speed. Well the new RE-17 just out for 2 days
is setup like that. The surface of the RE-17 grains is
more porous than RE15, so that fact allows better ignition
even though a slower powder, and along with fact that company
got most deterent inside it still regulates speed.
Today I fired with regular REM and WIN primers in
plastic and RMC cases, a whole bunch of loads of RE-17,
with no hesitation or squibs or misfires. Loads ranged from
437 gr slugs to 750gr slugs today. All loads burnt clean
and I got in RMC case one of RG's 715gr jkt slugs to 2300
with 160 gr of RE-17. Using plastic you must have a strong
roll crimp with slug and wads tight.....Whoopee....Ed


----------



## hubel458

I shot couple loads with regular primer with RE-17
and 1040 gr slug in 12GA FH NEF, and it does great.
Tested loads that were cooled outside a while.Perfect ignition.
I fired loads RE-17 8ga plastic,in my 8GA FH on new NEF long 
heavy barrel that was a 10 ga and RE-17 is great. No hesitation,
it fires off as good in 8ga as the 4759. Remember 
I couldn't get good ignition in 8g with 4227, but so far
RE-17 is magic. In 8 ga all it would hold under the 8ga REM
wadcup with 770 gr slug is 200 gr of RE-!7, with the
wadcup pressed down, compressed real hard,good crimp,
and it really bellers.2400 plus.Going by case
expansion about 20k pressure. Which don't bother
those one piece compression molded super strong
8ga REM cases. You must have real tight proper
roll crimp in plastic cases and good tight 
taper crimp or rolled in crimp in groove
in the brass cases. In RMC brass I size it so slugs
have to be shoved in with press.In all of this
brass and plastic,  no airspace use wads when needed.

And this RE-17 doesn't break up the kernels when powder
gets to a certain point, like the 7383 does, causing burning
rate to speed up more than what it was designed for.
I tested 7383 in my 700HE, and when up to 35-40k it's
pressure went up fast, much more than linear progression.
I still like 7383 at shotgun pressures, but I really like 
RE-17.Just great fun to use slower powder, so that
we don't have to worry about fast, high peak pressures,
but yet get large volumne, pressure curve for good velocity.

Ok- for those who want to get into the 12GA FH and get
the long strong 3.85 inch cases Rob on AR got some made,
email him to deal to get some- garnickrob@aol.com
He can also tell you where to get reamer.Ed.


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of another fellas work on AR forum, 
of NEF 12GA FH, factory thumbhole stock
and a brake he built, with wide slots in top and round
ports on the sides. He is testing heavy slugs.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here's picture of solid turned 12ga slugs that Rob makes.
They are flat on one end and hollowpoint on other.
They can be shot either direction. Aluminum ones
are 346gr, brass 1080gr........If you need any
contact him. He, RIP, and others on AR are testing
them with different powders. I have gotten similiar brass
ones to 1900 in NEF with RMC case, with
140 gr the new RL-17. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Heavy brass slug testing-----
RIP'S components in first picture-
15gr Blue Dot starter, thin plastic separator,
230gr HBMG, thin plastic under slug,
and 1087gr brass slug; in a RMC 3.5"
brass case, fired in his great looking,
braked NEF 12ga FH Ultra, got him
1812 fps average. Barrel and brake 
are 27" total length. Great work. Ed


----------



## HydroAuto

That's the first time I've seen two different powder charges. Is the 15gr some sort of a booster charge?  Does the 230gr powder need help getting burnt faster?  Is there a hole in the plastic disk that allows the starter to ignite the main charge?


----------



## hubel458

The shotgun primer wll not ignite the real slow rifle powders
in cases of 12ga,10ga, bmg diameters.But it does ignite the
shotgun powder used as a starter powder, which them has enough
heat and blast to burn up the thin separater plast and ignite
the slow powder. This is nothing new, been used in many 
places where loads where hard starting all the way from
artillery to  600NE, 600Ne,etc.
One of our testers, Bret in MN, got the BPI Sabot with
500gr Hornady .500 slug up to the good speed listed
on BPI"s loading sheet, using shotgun powders. I could
get them there with my loads using much larger amounts
of rifle powders. He tested 3.5" Federal plastic cases in
his Savage 210 with 3.5" chamber and the 28" heavy barrel
he put on. With 50gr of Longshot(max load for all modern
guns) he got 2550 fps, with 500gr in sabot. He use two
BPGS gas seals fitted together over the powder, then
a FS12 Flexseal wad, then a 1/4" cork wad, then the sabot.

Then a good strong roll crimp with drill/drillpress crimper.
This load is at  mag shotgun pressures by case expansion
measurements and BPI's 46gr load tested at 12,500 psi.
He also did one with one BPGS and two Flexseals and had
200 fps less.He  had tried other combinations seals/wads
and with same amount of powder and got lower yet.
He also went up with the powder, with seal/wads that worked
the best and got about 3000 fps, but the plastic cases
stuck and wouldn't eject easy. I will be testing same 
seal and wad column in a few days, in my NEF with long
barrel to compare results.I thank Bret, he is a real
good experimenter and idea man. Everybody is trying
like crazy to get that 500gr saboted slug up to big
game gun velocities with shotgun powder and thanks to
BPI's supply of the right components it has happened.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Rob on AR is building a 12GA FH double on a Zabala Double 
10 gauge frame.  It has the Greener crossbolt. He cut off 
barrels to make a 4" long monoblock double to screw a
pair of heavy 12ga rifled Pacnor barrels into. He reamed out
monoblock section and threaded it. His barrels are
1.116" at the breach, .97" at muzzle and 22" total length.
Barrels threaded into monoblock with a 15/16" x 32 thread.
In the pics it is partly done and he will put in the ribs 
and integral sight rib and regulate for accuracy.
It will be about 14.5 lbs when done he says.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some more BPI seal and sabot testing.
First of all both Bret and I have heavy tight fit barrels
and his barrel on the Savage is faster twist so it took
him 50 gr of Longshot to get what BPI got with
looser barrels and slow twist at 46 gr of Longshot.
For non heavy barreled guns only go to 46 gr.
I did a bunch of tests in my NEF long barrel with long 
chamber. My store didn't have any 500gr .500" XTP slugs
so I used some 420gr .512" dia lead Great plains in the
BPI sabot. Using 2 BPGS powder seals, a BPI Flexseal, a 
cork wad in 3.5" new Federal cases, roll crimped, I got
2800 fps with 420gr slug. I tried 4 other powder seals,
2 cards, a Remington, a Win, and a odd one, all with the
Flexseal and lost velocity. I fixed up my crimper so it would
roll the plastic down and over inside edge of sabot, as before
it would turn plastiC in too sharp and get some of the crimp
outside the sabot top. If sabot was too low so that the plastic 
crimp went clear down to the slug I got high pressure signs.
I also did same loads in used 3.5" REM cases ok.
Now, I thought I should have more velocity, so I swaged the
.512" 420GR slug down to .500" like they say the sabot is for,
AND I GOT OVER A 120 FPS MORE. Everytime. I also used
Alliant Steel powder and got all the same results, using
60gr. It is easier on cases. I also substituted the doubled up
BPGS powder seals and the Flexseal with 520gr Lyman in 
place of the seal and cushion on the WW12 wadcup the Lyman
fits in, with some RL-17 loads, of 150gr, and got over 200fps more
that the original WW12 wadcup gave with the Lyman.

Velocity secret is to have the perfect sealing setup with
slug/sabot combo that is NOT too tight. Only tight enough
to get accuracy. The cork seems to protect the sabot
base ok on the shotgun powder loads, and not needed
on the RL-17 loads, which is a easier accelerating powder
and without cork helps make room for the RE-17. I think I
will get increases in the brass RMC cases, with RE-17, with
the BPGS doubled and a Flexseal in place of cards and wads.
We will know soon.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of the breach of 8ga FH NEF with
case in it, to show that the gun is strong enough
for 8ga. I was a 10ga NEF. Has 29" effective barrel
length, and the internal expansion step at muzzle 
for the ports that stops muzzle climb and reduces 
recoil. Which along with thick pad and thumbhole
stock makes for easy shooting.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of a 12ga size drawn brass case that was 
made back in the 80s. Case is for the CAWS weapon system.
Case is belted, and it and the gun operated at 25,000 psi.
Its bore size is between 12 and 10 ga size, but the od of
the drawn case would let it start in 12ga chambers, so
they added belt so it couldn't go all the way in
to regular shotguns. Notice the thick sides and corner
near the base.Heavy enough for 25,000 psi. They loaded
it with big buckshot and tested other projectiles also.
They had a plastic card over shot and filler and rolled 
over brass mouth for crimp. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of a NEF  breach barrel section that I threaded
monoblock style for a .585" cal barrel, to make a NEF 585HE.
It goes on a SB2 10-12ga alloy, super strong frame. Its
OD is 1.210" and the barrel that screws into it will be tapered
to match contour and it will be 1.00" at muzzle, at 32" long.
I know these are strong enough as my 8GA FH testing shows..
Later will do couple more with heavy barrels for 28GA FH, etc,
as all the break action 28 gauges I've looked at have too
thin of muzzles for our slower, powder loads.I'll have 3 of these
that fit one SB2 frame I have here.This makes switch barrels
big power fun.Ed.


----------



## hubel458

I fired mono-blocked NEF this week with a 585HE 32"  
barrel and the gun is weighted to 15 lbs. Thick pad.
I have cone breech as this case is belted with thick base.
I'll have a pic of gun later. Gun is still tight after testing.
I can take out cases with my fingers as they don't stick.
First 650gr, with no extractor. The HBMG, WC-860,AA8700,
Retumbo, Magpro, RE25, W-780 loads come out of the chamber,
with my fingers.If I tip gun up they fall out.
Top speed with RE25 and W-780 is over 2400. Now I knew what
to load them at because I have tested this case in 3 other guns.
I have all the different powders and bullets tested.
This is example of a case extracting  easy,
due to proper side taper that my 585 has....Ed


----------



## dadsbuckshot

hubel458 said:


> Just visiting here to tell about our
> 12GA From ****videos on Youtube, and a
> little info about our ongoing work. If you
> have questions please ask. Here is pic of our
> 12GA FH cartridge  on the right. 2nd picture
> is the Savage 210, we shot it from. we put
> on heavy barrel and weighted gun.Ed Hubel
> 
> The videos are called--
> 
> Grandpa's First Shot
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/c48zTpsgbuk&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/c48zTpsgbuk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
> Grandpa's Cannon
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rUNHszY4ACM&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rUNHszY4ACM&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>





Really now come on 

Every hunting forum that I am a member of and/or visit has been plastered with your engineering information from your 12 gauge FH. Personally to me it gets old following along with your pet project that apparently your trying to make a business.  Your beating a dead horse on every forum 

IF YOU HAVE SO MUCH MONEY TO PLAY THEN WHY DON'T YOU JUST GET A WEBSITE OF YOUR OWN 

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy your concept, but I don't need all the details about how it comes together. IF you wanting to go into business - then design, build and market your product and be done with it - don't keep updating the world via a free hunting web forum. Get your own website like real businesses do. If your doing this as a DIY project then by all means get you a DIY (do it yourself) website. 

IF you need a good website designer for your business/project then I will refer you to one - just PM me 

Just my little 2 cents worth....


----------



## hubel458

I'm not selling guns. It isn't only me, but a bunch
of other guys.We think it is interesting and
we pass it around as a help for folks.Like
another guys work shown here, with
 a picture of the Zabala that was a 10ga double,
 that Rob has monoblocked in heavy rifled barrels, showing
the quarter sight rib he has made, fitted to the gun.
He has it chambered for  12GA FH long case.
Really beautiful work and gun.Ed


----------



## hubel458

I found odd steel block with a square cornered
1.0" by 1.5" hole through it. It solves a big
machining problem for me in doing a 4bore.
And I happen to have some 1" by 1.5" steel.
The rest of machining I can do, and I have
the levers, hammer, trigger, etc. But the parts
and layout are not going to copy the Wickcliff.
To many problems with all the parts riding on the
breachblock and the crowded stubby extractor.
Will be my own design with hammer and
trigger behind breachblock. An extractor similiar
to Ruger and its shape a cross between WIN 1885 
and a Farquarson.In pic you can see drawn outline
on the block of the shape it will have.ED


----------



## hubel458

Here is the finished NEF mono-blocked gun with
the 585 barrel, 32" long, 1 to 22 twist.
Chambered for my 585HE belted case.
I used a SB2 10ga action which is same as the 12ga
Ultra actions.I cut it off to make a 4" long monoblock.
and threaded it 1 inch by 14tpi. I'm going to do extra 
ones 28GA FH,others.. My 585 is best 585,as the info will
show. I have a 45-70 extractor coming to rework for it.
I am firing first bunchs of test loads without
an extractor, and loads with 650 gr bullets at 2450 and 
750 gr bullets at 2250 didn't need the extractor. They 
come out with my fingers. Over 8000 ft lbs.I got thumbhole
stock now, because those with higher velocities of 2-400fps more, 
 were harder to hold on to grip. Trigger guard banged the fingers. 
And higher velocity cases come out with a pry from my thumbnail.
Here is picture of rear of gun and the fixins(bullets/cases).
You see a fired case in the chamber, and I have cone breach
setup so that case is in same relationship to chamber as it
is in my three 585HE  bolt guns. And is why I can get cases
out with my fingers.OR tip gun up. The hairier loads of
650 at 2650, 750 at 2450 is  10,000 ft lbs. Ed


----------



## tv_racin_fan

dads, some of us enjoy hearing about their little project.


----------



## hubel458

Here's pic of my to be 4bore falling block with
the block to be the  breech setting in the hole.
Breach needs trough on the top yet, but now
it is done for exact width and height and the
bottom recess and link hookup is done, since
the picture was taken..Ed


----------



## hubel458

The falling block is coming along. I'm not copying my
first models that were a scale up of the Wickcliff.
Complete new design, mainly in shape and type of stock
used, the bridge and reciever setup, and trigger/hammer
behind the block. Block will have no curved outside
shapes, front to back. Pics soon with the stock......

Used wadcutter style 8ga slug made by cutting off part
of a long nosed one in picture, in my 8ga with RE-17 
powder.. Over 2300 fps. Slug is a zinc slug from kiln
gun factory load. With nose cut back and hollow I put 
in the base it was 800 gr. It had a .20" wadcutter nose 
on it.Good tribute to Elmer. The other ones in picture,
just with nose cut off and solid base and is 870 gr.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Another couple months maybe 4 bore/ga will fire.Just have a
chunk of shaft on front to simulate barrel to
get a stock fit. Got to profile barrel, thread barrel,
fit in hammer,trigger, couple bottom bolts into action,
design and mount extractor.. some springs, firing pin, etc.
May change/lengthen fulcrum on lever so it doesn't have to 
move so far. Lever is held closed by little feramic magnet
in grip. Checking on different shapes for lever. When breach is
lowered the lever stays open due to weight of breach
block. Block moves smooth, no rattling around.
Guys-,I need some Vulcan 50cal V-50 thumbhole laminated stocks.
If there are any used extra ones around let me know.
This way of doing a FB in one piece thumbhole stock will work
for 12GA FH with an action about a 1/4" narrower.ED


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of 4bore/ga action with lever open and 
breach down.You see bottom of breach block.The action 
and barrel will be held in stock with 2 bolts into bottom
of action one bolt in barrel ahead of action and a recoil
barrel ring in front end of stock. Didn't have to add
any recoil lugs, as the wide back of the action is
the recoil lug. This is now called the Hubel Falling
Block Action. Second picture is of the 4bore cases
and 2000gr slugs, with 20mm case I make 4bore/ga cases
from and the 30-06 for comparison.Ed


----------



## bighonkinjeep

Ed has anyone taken one of these on safari yet? I don't think anyone would have a problem with the .40 cal minimum imposed in some African countries. I would love to see some video of truly large game falling to one of these behemoths. 
BHJ


----------



## hubel458

Rob plans on taking 12GA FH double to Africa.
Here is picture of the 12ga wad column using two
BPI BPGS seals, Flexseal,cork, and sabot. Bret in
MN has, in a long heavy  rifled barreled Savage
like mine, gotten 28-3000 fps with a 500 gr XTP bullet
in the sabot with a 3.5" plastic case. And it extracts
ok with the Savage bolt action extractor. 
He is using slow shotgun powder, Alliant Steel.I can't
get that high in my NEF 12GA FH and make the
extractor work with the Alliant Steel powder loads.
The NEF handles pressures fine, just doesn't extract
like a bolt action Savage 210. Using RE17 without cork,
I  get 28-2900, with max of much slower RE17 with 420gr
slug in the sabot, in NEF The case shown was fired with the
RE17 load like that....Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of  NEF I've set up with my
700H 3.25" belted case to show the versatility
of NEFs and my 700. The 700 cal barrel monoblocked
like I did the 585HE. I put monblocked barrel on 
the same SB2 frame  that I have my 12GA FH on as
it has the beefed up firing pin for big primers
use in our 12GA FH case and in my 700H case.

Other projects coming.I found a heavy 16ga barrel
to monoblock in one to test the 16GA FH cartridge
I made. It is the 3.5" brass case mentioned 
earlier in the thread.

Also a bunch of us are going to take 500 S&W
NEFs and put my 499 HE case in them, with just a
chamber job. It is a case that will get the zip
in 500gr slugs. NEFs are great guns to experiment
with and along with reasonable costs, we don't
have to worry about case length. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of a falling block a guy on Weaponsforum
has picked up to finish. The fellow who started building
it laid it aside for awhile and the new guy is going to finish
in BMG. It has 50cal bbl on it. Looks easily big enough
for 12ga,10ga,8ga, my 700s. The lever on left is cocking
mechanism, The tube in back is a firing striker and spring
and it hits the hammer block you see in the back of the
breach block, which hits firing pin ahead of it in breach.
It is the the  only one like it. They've put a lot of work
into it, especially the hammer block striker setup.Ed


----------



## hubel458

In related big bore work we got a Montana Rifle
Co, PH action setup in my 700H 3.25" case. Fired
test load of 825gr at 3000 fps. This was just one
test load. Normal max loads are 825gr at 2850 and
1000gr at 2700.Hunting loads 24-2500, First PH fired
outside the factory.It is in first picture.
PH will work for any big case and my 585HE.And
if anyone looking at big actions for 12ga FH,
here is picture of MRC PH with a 3.5" 12ga case
partly into action. The PH cam be used for 12ga with
action and rails opened like I did my 700H in Enfield.
And a little changing on the bolt face and extractor
In 12 ga it still would have 60% of front lugs contacting 
and you'd add bearing lug surface to bolt handle base so
it would handle same pressures as Savage 210.
And 3.5" with average length 12ga slug would feed from the
magazine. Our longer case would work with port opened 
and some mag work. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Got single stack mag figured out for 12GA FH and
my 700H 3.25 in PH. I fit a bolt action 12ga
box mag and its follower and spring
inside the PH mag box. Easy to fit in metal box,
and permanently mounted to metal and floorplate.
Holds 2 down. That way feed lips  already a working
design. And opened back of 12ga box for longer case
like I  did with my 700 in Savage 210. Also work 
for anyone doing a PH in 12ga FH if they aren't
loaded too long or with 3.5" RMC cases. Using most 
cast 12ga  bullets like Dixies, the overall length with
3.5 brass is 3.9" and fits 4.05" box ok. Here is picture 
PH from  bottom showing its big size.You can see in pic
there still is room to make box longer yet.
And the feed port can be longer.Montana Rifle has 
great action here with lots off room and strength.Ed


----------



## hubel458

I got barrel on the 4ga/bore falling block gun.
Barrel 32" long, 1.87" breech, gun is 27 lbs.
Notice breech block is down and huge hole in barrel.
Maybe shoulder cannon is the right term for it.
It is all inleted into thumbhole laminated Vulcan
50 cal stock, of which I need more, if anyone
knows where there are any. 4 bore cases shown,
next to the gun, 2 with 2000gr slugs,
and I'll use a big ammomaster press for them..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is a picture of the front end of the 4bore,
showing a 2000gr slug protuding out. Simulating
stop action photo work, as if anyone wwould be brave
enough to put a camera out in front of it
when it fired. Will have it firing by fall.
I plan on using hollowbase lead slugs of
about 1600gr, as it is a smoothbore. Ed


----------



## hubel458

got 3" chambered 12ga set up to test loads with RE-17.
Many guys want loads for 3" chambered slug barrels as they
come from the factory., So I put extra 24" Savage barrel I had
on a Mauser GEHA bolt action. Rifled Savage barrel is modern
steel with  .93" muzzle diameter.  Original barrel on the GEHA
was only .82" at muzzle. I added an extra rear bolt locking lug
onto the Mauser bolt. Using up stuff to make test gun.

 Any modern steel slug barrel, whether on bolt, autoloading,
pump, or break action gun with same muzzle diameter will handle
these RE-17 loads. Max loads were all 115gr of RE-17 in plastic
3" cases, all with seals and cushion wads. Can't get no more under
the seals, cushions and slugs in 3".  Which is why I like 3.5"
chambers. With 437 gr Brenekkee and 420 gr in BPI sabot got
over 1900. With 520gr Lyman in shot cup 1850. With 600gr Dixie
got 1800. With 870 gr hard lead got 1600. This is 24" barrel,
so longer barrels will get more. In comparison to IMR4227 loads,
these are about the same speed as using 90gr of 4227. But this
powder is so much easier on cases and guns, with about .004"
less base cup  expansion. It works great in 3" and really gets the
speed in 3.5" cases, as in 3.5" cases,as  seal/wads about same,
extra length for powder. The 870gr  load is max peak pressure of
16,000 psi. Muzzle pressure is about 3500-4000 psi.
I'll have pic of the Mauser in few days.ED


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of my 695 Mossberg bolt action. 
It is 28ga FH, a 3.25" long brass case. Was a
12ga with light barrel. I also have a heavy 12ga 
barrel chambered for 3.5" cases and a .500" barrel
for my 499HE a real long brass case. Also I am
doing my 499HE in a NEF. You can get a NEF with
MMouse 500S&W and run my reamer in and get real 
power.The 395,495,595 actions will work also,
as they like the 695 have double bolt lugs
and a loading port that can be lengthened.
And they have a nice style...Ed


----------



## hubel458

We get asked about finned slugs for
12ga smooth bores and if they take high
speed. Well they'll do just as good at high
speed as the locked on wad stablized Brenekkee
OK slug I tested in my smoothbore 1887 with long 
barrel, in first pic. Second pic is a Corbin
finned slug I will get and test later. Third is
BPI AQ slug I will test, few weeks in the 87.
I'm going to test also in a regular smooth bore
12ga slug barrel of medium muzzle size,
about .92" diameter like the Savage 210 barrel.
One gun I found with decent size diameter are
some of Stevens smoothbores..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of the Mauser GEHA shotgun I
setup with an  Savage 210 rifled barrel. Used a Savage
plastic stock also. It is setup with the original 3"
chamber. I have many guys who want ideas and slug/load
combination's tested in regular rifled slug barrels, so
this is the one. Most testing will be 3" plastic cases.
Barrel 24" long, .93" regular slug size muzzle diameter.
The GEHA was originally converted from 98 Mausers in
Germany in the 20s, to 12ga  by reaming outl the front lug seats
and using the rear safety lug. I added a second rear
bearing lug and it handles 15,000 psi loads ok.
The cases come out with the weight of the bolt.
That will be max pressure used in it, with that slug gun
barrel thickness. Example load is 115gr of RE17 in 3"
plastic case, with 520 gr Lyman cast slug at 1850 plus fps.
This load expands the plastic case base cups about .005",
in comparison, a REM factory Buckhammer and other super
mag turkey and goose loads expands .010".
And we have over 300 fps more velocity.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Testing some .660" diameter 630 gr hard cast
slugs in the red WIN wadcup in 3.5" plastic
case. Tested in rifled long barrel in 12ga 
NEF about 2100 fps. Greg Sappington makes 
these. They are hollow point. 3" group at
50yds, peep sight, bad eyes. I also fired 
a couple to see if they'd work in my long
brass cased 16GA FH shown in the picture.
They work ok, so Greg has a double duty
slug.They'd work in 16ga plastic also.
The 16ga was held at 1500 as the barrel
isn't  heavy, on  Stevens/Revelation 16ga. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Comparing brass cases.I tell folks who are stepping
up in 12ga power from 3.5 plastic, you can get 3.5" brass cases 
from Rocky Mtn Cartridge. Here you can see how heavy
and nice they are compared to  regular brass cases.
They also make shorter 3" brass cases also.
They fit the chamber tight and are long enough to
get some serious thumping power.And they have a
super strong, thick , solid head, not a weak balloon head
like regular ones on the left in pic.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Tested my 499HE in a NEF. Loads I didn't have to
full length resize the case, only top 1/4 of case.
325gr at 2600, 500gr at 2150.
In NEF got both weight bullets 300 fps faster,
still extracted very easy.I got reamer. Just run it
in NEF 500 chamber and you got a blaster. And add
a little weight and thick pad to the gun.I have
a barrel ring to hold forearm along with original
bolt, as I added weight there as well as the butt.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Finally an 870 with longer  1" muzzle barrel. Barrel 
is heavier than most all add on pump gun barrels,
and it is 25.5" long, Something that would really get
it on with the slower powder loads we have.
Rifled barrel is solid mount  in receiver, scoperail solid mount.

It is the REM 870 Super Slug Gun.
Nice long heavy barrel, and thumbhole stock for
handling recoil better. Plastic case  3" slug loads of ours that
gets 600gr slugs to 1800-1900 fps, work great in this
Like the ones I load and roll crimp in second picture
that are setting behind the little vise, and the one in the
vise ready to be crimped...Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is a novel slug idea, hard plastic support ring on
the front, and a locked base ring/seal. Metal never 
touches the bores. Work in great rifled and good in
smooth barrels. These are steel, lead/copper would do
great also.Could be made heavier and different points.
Flat point shown would do great damage to game.  
On the net-  ammunitiontogo.com
This one is about 500 gr.

Second picture is the 499HE to use in redoing the 500S&W,
shown on the also, in single shots, etc,for those wanting 
much more power at 40-50% lower pressures.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some more testing with RE17 powder. I used it in 2.75",
3", 3.5" 12ga plastic, 3.5 and 3.85" brass. I like it the
best of all, as well as the real slow powders in our
long case with BMG primer. 
Following tested in Savage-max pressure 35k psi.
I took couple of our first made 3.85" BMG based 
long cases and bushed them back to use shotgun primers
to fire off the RE17. Works great, with 715gr jacketed slug
and 220 gr RE17 getting 2700 . With 420 gr slug in 
BPI sabot with 250 gr RE17 getting 3200 plus.
Following tested in NEF-max pressure 25k psi.
Using 3.5" MRC brass,  715gr jkt and 200gr RE17, got 2500.
420 gr in BPI sabot and 220 gr Re17, got  2900 fps.
And we get real good velocities in plastic with half the
basecup expansion of factory mag loads.So that solves
problem-IE, being able to use regular firing mechanisms and
shotgun primers, with large enough powder charges to
get hairy velocities at mag shotgun pressures in plastic
and  higher in brass cases with heavy barrels.A good powder
for plastic and brass loads.
I see now that Lightfield Co has the Commander 3.5" Plus
slug loads with 600gr at 1900, probably in a test barrel.
But that is great- nice, as it seems we're being copied!!!ED


----------



## hubel458

So many guys want 12ga sabot type slugs to reload their own.
Here is an interesting  combination slug available in Europe
and they are working to get distributors/stores  here.
Any interested stores and shops contact them. We need
many sources of saboted slugs for reloading. The sabot
petals discards completely as slug exits  muzzle and  locked
on base stays with slug, making it nose heavy so it will give
decent accuracy in smooth bores.Will work in rifled barrels
also. Slug is .629" diameter, comes in 570gr, 700gr, 970gr
weights. They're selling these reloader/other loaders only.
It is called the US-S slug, and their site is
europeancartridgeunlimited.com    ..Ed


----------



## hubel458

The company kindly gave me few US-S slugs to test at high speeds.
I had helped him test another slug  a while back.
He sent me some each  of the  US-S  570 gr, 700 gr, 970 gr.
I tested the 570 gr so far and in 3.5" plastic case in the 1887
smoothbore  35"  barrel and in the NEF rifled 36" barrel at
1900 fps.  I got that with 130gr of RE17 with one BPGS
seal under the sabot on the slug. The bottom of the sabot seal
is exactly like a BPGS, so a BPGS added gives double sealing.
Both smooth and rifled gave 3 shot 3" group each  at 50 yds with
peep sights and bad eyes. This slug does as good as advertized
in smooth barrels, and smooth accuracy is as good as rifled.
My smooth barrel is tight, measuring 723" at muzzle.
These should be a great deer and hog slug. Folks need to
ask their dealers to work to import these for them
to have what seems a good slug to reload...

On another note we may have found a guy who is gearing up
to make 10 ga rifled barrels. I'll know later this winter
If so I will put one on a bolt action and use the  4.1" long
10GA FH case I made or get some like it from RMC..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of the US-S slugs in a lineup
with other 12ga slugs I'm testing. Lefteris was
kind enough to send me a few of each weight
to test. They are the 3 in second row on the right.
They are 570gr, 700 gr, 970 gr. I tested 570gr in
3.5" plastic so far. At 1900 in the NEF rifled, and
in the 1887 smooth barrel, got 3" group on both.
With peep sights an bad eyes.So the US-S slug
is great in smoothbores, as good as rifled. My
smoothbore on the 1887 is .723" bore at muzzle,
a nice tight fit for smooth slugs. The smooth
bores Lefteris tested them with are .722" muzzle,
and they've already killed 5 wild boars, one shot
kills with the 570gr slug. Also if anyone wants a
heavy smoothbore new 12ga barrel, .722" muzzle,
1.375" outside diameter to make a great slug
gun with slugs like these, and others like the
Brenekkes, I have spare one. The US-S slugs
are smoothbore accurate in my 87 like the
Brenekke KOs.In the picture the left two cases
are 3.5" Fiocchi with the Fiocchi magnum primers.
I compared that primer to the REM 209 primer and
it has about the same strength.Next two are FED 3.5".
then 2 12GA FH 3.85" cases, then 3.5" RMC brass, then
3" RMC brass, the 2 WIN 3.5", then 2 REM 3.5".ED


----------



## hubel458

I got the 700H 3.25 case feeding from the magazine I set 
up on the Montana Rifle Co PH action. It is singlestack with
feed lips similiar to 12ga shotgun clip style magazines I 
had here. Works great, shown in first picture. Now it is longer
than regular 12ga mags, but same setup would do for feeding
long brass 12GA FH and long  MRC 12ga cases. The 
700H 3.25 is 3.9 inches overall loaded length. In picture
case is ready to clear the mag lips, then rim  pops up under 
extracter as bolt is moving forward. Second picture is
the box used that I made out of two PH boxes. That allowed
for extra height and fit for singlestack and riveted together.
Used a Savage 210 12ga follower and spring. ED


----------



## hubel458

The 700gr US-S slug in smoothbore, at 2000
in a 3.5" brass case, got a 2.5"  3 shot group
at 50 yds. Great slugs they have come up with
for smoothbores.
Some of us talking about getting 10 ga rifled
barrels made, here is a picture of my 4.1" long
brass 10ga I made from 50cal Russian by putting
on a rim like the 12GA FH is built.Just a prototype,
third in picture. Later I'll get RMC to make some,
as it is much easier way. First in picture is
16GA FH 3.5" long, 2nd 12GA FH 3.85" long,
3rd 10GA FH 3.1" long, 4th 8GA FH 4.3" long.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of the 12ga belted cases I made to
test a few loads in. I made it from 55cal belted
Boys case. I reduced belt diameter a little and left
the base the same, which is 12ga size.In picture
first is 55cal, second expanded to .620", third
expanded to .660"(16ga), then two 12 ga ones.
Next is our 12GA FH, and then a 12ga 3.5" 
plastic case.A little work in long 12ga FH chamber 
with a tool for belt step and it chambers. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is a picture of US-S brass slug after going through
3 foot of wood slabs in a bundle. It has shed its plastic 
base and it went through straight without tumbling.
This one is 570 gr fired at 2200 in RMC case, from NEF.
Also in picture is one with white sabot  petals off, as it
would be in flight, before hitting target.Ed


----------



## hubel458

4bore work. Working on design of firing pin,
and waiting for parts now.  Problem is getting
real small parts without CNC for bushed
firing pin with rebound spring. But it takes
time.

We will have swaged lead slugs
in a little while as my barrel is smooth. They
will be 1600gr hollowbase, when done, 
a hundred of them at least. 
Got wads and cards, shown in the picture with 4bore
cases and slugs. And my 2bore case for comparison
Also 12ga wads for comparison..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Our cartridge work and experimenting got a nice
write up in # 470  Nov/Dec  International Ammunition
Journal. Page 10-11 by Zach Weighman,  a 
 cartridge collector and gun nut friend.

Got a guy just figured out BMG case rim, and for a rim
puts on 12ga high base cup from a plastic case. He turns 
base/rim of bmg case about .008" and use JB Kwik to hold
it on. Pushes it on with press. He removes base cup with
heat gun from plastic cases,

He is using RE17, so shotgun primers will work, and he 
puts bushing in case for primer. Has bushing reamed so 
the primer pocket protrusion on the base cup goes up inside
tight, as he pushes on the base cup. It'll fire ok and to size it
do like I do, I push case into open top die, and push it
back out from the top with a rod and hammer. That
way the rim don't get bent up. He says it saves a lot of
time not having to make rim pieces.

We will have more info and pictures next few weeks.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is a picture of a BPI sabot with a BPI Flexseal I
use on to it in place of the original cushion seal.
I also cut shallow slots in the outside at the bottom
of the petals. Sabot opens much quicker and seems
 along with BPGS seals under it to work ok without 
damage, giving high velocities. In pic on left is regular
BPI sabot, behind is one I put a cushion on from a
Brenekke KO slug, and in front the one with Flexseal on.
The slug in it is one a guy casts at 440 gr and .504"
diameter, and works ok.

New info on my 499HE, from now on we will make cases
out of 450 #2 brass, as Jamisons has 3-4000 cases,
and it seems no one has the 475 #2 we used first.
Only slight case dimension change is the base .012"
smaller, all else is the same. I'm getting reamers redone
and will be able to use in couple weeks. Case will still have
plenty of taper to extract easy in singles, doubles, 
falling blocks.etc.

And speaking of falling blocks I found one, and put my 585HE
in it, and it is big enough and has enough clearance to be used
for a 577NE, 600NE, long 20ga, my long 16ga FH, 
the 700H, the 700HE. Cost no more than Ruger, with barrel
figured in. Will have pics
and info soon. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture, Falling Block I found that I put
my 585HE in. It didn't need any work on the
feed trough to feed. 585 case shown in it.
In fact the trough is big enough
and the action big enough for 600NE, 3.5" 20ga 
brass, 3.5" 16ga FH brass, my 700 HE long case.
I reworked a NEF stock to it, as I'm not
a stockmaker.Nice action.2nd picture is
of the 16GA FH in the feed trough.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of the FBW falling block with my
700HE long case in it.This falling block is 1.5"
wide, with a 1.125" wide breach block.
The sides are .187" thick next to breach block.
This compares to about .165" say for a Browning
B-87, Win copy. The feed trough would work with
12ga size rim if some work was done on the top
of the hammer. This has a barrel thread length of
1.005", thread diameter of 1.125" for good 
strength. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of the falling block with a
600NE in the feed trough. Work great
chambered as a 3.5" 20 gauge, for 
20 gauge 3.5" brass and plastic cases also.

Second picture is a 12GA FH case we made by
epoxying on a 12 ga base cup onto a bmg brass
case. Turned brass down .010" and pressed on base
with epoxy in it and when set base is on good.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Another way that I put a 12ga rim on
bmg case is to use the new Magtech brass
12ga cases made by CBC in Brazil.
BPI and others sell them for less than
a buck each. Being so short they aren't
in the 12ga FH category of generating power.
But you cut them off a quarter inch long, and
turn a BMG rim down to .715 diameter, push on the
Magtech base, with JB weld in the Magteck
base, and set up a squeeze collet to
crimp the Magtech base sides into the BMG
extractor groove. Crimp it in hard and tight.
And it uses large rifle primers.Fed Mag 215 best.
Other bmg case work needed is to put a chamfer
on the bmg primer pocket and drill out the
bmg primer pocket straight so that there is no
block to the primer gases coming out through the
Magtech flash hole. Chamfer back of rim a little.
These will handle
20,000 psi loads.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of Brett Ittel's Savage 210 he has setup.
It has a 3.5" 12ga chamber in a heavy 27"  Pacnor barrel,
that he put in place of original. He also put in a Knoxx 
spring/cam recoil absorbing butt plate in the hollow
Savage plastic stock. He replace the plastic parts of the
absorber with aluminum parts. It is shown without the boot
so you can see how it is in the butt.He also has an oversize
pad on it. He hasn't weighted the gun with anything else and
it shoots comfortable, even off the bench with loads that get
a 500gr slug in a BPI sabot over 3000 fps. He gets this speed
with BPI and 500 gr in 3.5" plastic cases. He also can use
3.5" RMC cases and our BMG based case, cut to 3.5"...Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some 8ga work.I found a way and made a die that
swages the 8ga kiln cases down to regular 8ga size.
It swages the belt down and a turning tool I made
removes the sharp edge on the belt after swaging,
to make a smooth transition to the right size.
It does it 4 times faster than previous process.
My chamber on the NEF is set up so regular sizes fit
and loaded kiln cases with the belt step won't go in.
It works with both the REM 8ga cases from BPI and the
WIN 8ga cases from Precision Reloading, and the
WIN cases are only 44 bucks a hundred, primed.
The WIN cases have the same extra powerful primer
just like the REM cases. The REM cases are black
and the WIN cases a see through plastic. Both same
thick sides.Anyone needing cases worked over 
contact me... Ed


----------



## hubel458

A switch barrel auto we are tested 3.5" 12ga
smoothbore USS-S slugs, with hopped up loads.
About as accurate as the other guns here. Also
I'm getting the auto set up in my 585 HE long 
case.585 HE long case shown in the port.
Switching barrels only takes minutes. This 12ga
barrel about  as heavy as the 210 Savage barrel.
It is originally a 3.5" 12ga autoloader I've reworked
the stroke and have a barrel extension coming to add 
585  28" barrel. Gun is weighted, thick double pad.
We are going to see how mild 585 HE loads of
9,000 ft lbs work in autoloader.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Guys have asked about a 10ga FH, and it is just
getting stuff to do cases with reasonable time and cost.
So a breakthrough with a 10ga FH, is putting 10 gauge
basecups from plastic cases onto 50cal Russian brass to
make a 4.05" long 10ga. I expand case using my shellholder
on original rim, put in bushing for shotgun primer, which
fires off RE17, the turn case and rim a little, and slip
on basecup with epoxy inside. Then take a 200 dollar heavy
barrel NEF 10ga, and deepen chamber like mine is.
Here is picture with one beside a 12ga FH. The 12ga FH holds
max load of about 330 gr ball powder below a slug,
and the 10ga FH holds 420gr. I'm getting things set
to get a bunch of cases to do this. Progress.
Now anyone wanting any of my cases for their collection
I have a package of them all. Contact me.. ...Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is a neat idea for a 5 shot 12ga,
a 12ga revolver. Nice looking gun.
Also I found a company that would rebore 10ga
NEF heavy barreled guns to 8ga, if they can
get 5-6 guys lined up to do it, so that they can 
make tooling and charge  less than
300 bucks to do it. Delta Reboring.
Let me know and we'll get arrangements made
if enough are interested.I have two now.ED


----------



## hubel458

The long brass 10GA FH case shown above has a Lyman
slug in a thickwall 10ga steel shotcup that BPI sells.
That's a 12ga 525gr Lyman.Makes nice  lighter slug for 10ga.
The slug has bottom chamfered to set in cup tight
and a little epoxy makes it one piece that makes it a discarding
sabot  style like a SPW. That makes it front heavy so that it
is as accurate as Brenekke KOs  in smoothbore. I'm
also working with a guys to cast long hollowbase 10ga slugs
like the ones Federal loads. We are figuring out molds now,
will probably make slugs about 850gr. Here is picture of
my 10GA FH NEF with long brass case started in the chamber.
Chamber is set for that 4.050" brass case and will shoot 3.5"
plastic cases also. I am going to put on a thumbhole Survivor
stock like I have on NEF 8ga we did.Ed


----------



## hubel458

We talk about liking the use of heavier slug barrels
in using our slow powder giving 1/3 faster loads
in plastic cases, and handling recoil better. It is
stiffer being heavy for an aid to accuracy.
Guy out west  has this heavy muzzled, Hastings, rifled
barrel, for his REM 870. In first pic is a comparison to the
original 870 barrel. It shows a muzzle as heavy as on 
a NEF Ultra Slug GUN. 2nd picture is the gun itself.
That makes a neat slug gun..Ed


----------



## hubel458

The heavy rifled barrel  in previous post was made by 
Hastings for the Remington 870. It is 26" long and a
muzzle diameter of over an inch. Hastings is gone now,
but we'd like to find some of these barrels. The Hastings
number of the barrel is  560H90.

In the meantime Remington has come out with their
SPS Super Magnum Slug Gun with 25.5" rifled barrel and
a 1" diameter muzzle, with more solid barrel, and extra
pins in mounting barrel, so a scope can be put on action. Ed


----------



## hubel458

I am now putting a 3.5" 20ga on the FBW action.
We are having RMC make 3.5" brass 20ga cases. I also
bought a huge box of 3.5" plastic case  Hastings 
hot rod sabot slugs at their out of business auction.
Picture is of FBW with brass case in the feed trough.
Any wanting to do  20 ga brass cases, at same time,
contact RMC, they'd like to make a big batch this spring..
I also got few of the cases to make the 10ga FH
brass 4.050" long case. Anyone wanting one. I'll part
with them, but I'll only will have a few. The brass is hard  
to find and costly.. Ed


----------



## hubel458

I get asked about presses used for big cases.
Here is a picture of my 2 big presses on
the heavy bench, with the case spinner/lathe
on the back of the bench. Blue one is a Walnut
Hill and the green is beefed up Ammomaster.
Both are braced so I can lean on them.Bench is
braced to wall supports and benches behind.

You can see the expanders laid out on the press 
brace arms, and a whole bunch of shorty dies laid
out, that fit everything from 10ga down to
my 700HE. And variety of large cases and real large
4ga-8ga dies,  parts I work with. On the right is a
stack of my 585HE dies in the die boxes.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Now might get real exciting load developement wise,
If we could make brass cases as long as the paper
one on the right. In picture is 3.5" 10ga plastic 
case, our 10GA FH brass 4.05" case I made by putting
a 10ga basecup on 50cal Russian brass, and third
a 6" long 10ga bomb disposal case used to shoot
liquid/gel in to bomb packages, I think.
Anyone knows for sure let me know.ED


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture showing surplus 50 Russian case before
and the 10ga brass case we make using it with
10ga bases pressed and epoxied on and expanding
case out straight, making the 4.050" long
10ga case.Makes a great 10ga FH.
And the case isn't weakened any, by the
process of putting on the rim.It will
stand any pressures any gun could...ED


----------



## hubel458

We have put 4 different cartridges in the Savage 210
bolt gun. We added various 12ga and .700" 
heavy thick barrels.
The first was our 12ga FH long case.
The second was my 700H 3.25" belted case.
Third was the 3.5" 12ga that Bret did, and
fourth is the 700NE that we wanted to see
how it works. It shoots fine, has weighted stock,
and a 27 inch barrel.Has a double thick pad.
I even have cast slugs for 700.
 Cases are expensive, ones in picture are 
20 bucks each...Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of my Mossy 695 that has heavy barrel for
the our long 12ga cases, in fact it chambers the 12ga
belted shown in picture ok that I use for testing.
I set chamber to do belted as well as rimmed.

Second picture is some of my 585 Short HE cases, that work 
great in regular length actions.We have these in Ruger,
Enfields, Mausers already. I have available  supply of
brass for these of about 8-9000. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Getting to some more 4ga/bore work.With barrel and
falling block action locked down fired off some blank
type loads to test the breach and firing pin I set up.
I fired it by hitting the back of firing pin with a rod, 
as I now have get hammer and trigger setup. Firing pin
dents primers ok, breach works and headspace is ok.

For loads I have wads to take up space above powder.
Others with same 4ga case in doubles fill case about
1/6 full of Blue Dot (110gr), with 2000gr slug.

I'll use 1600 gr hollowbase slugs, with about 1/3 of a case
of IMR 4759 or 1/2 to 5/8 case of  RE17, rest filled
with fiber wads.These are shotgun primer loads and I will be
using THE  STRONGER PRIMERS OF KILN CASES at about same
price as BMG primers. And I have BMG primer cases also
that I will test also, once gun is finished in a few weeks.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Fired 4bore with 760 gr light round ball with
fiber wads under it, using 150gr Blue Dot
and shotgun primer case. Just starting loads
for testing operation. Hardly no recoil,
like a heavy, beefed up blank load,
could go much higher with that light 
of round ball. Will have pics of the muzzle
blast and the gun shooting from the side,
using heavier slugs in a week or so.
In Owen's 4bore double,that uses same case
size they use max of 110gr of Blue Dot 
with 2000 gr slug. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Fired the 4bore with the 760 gr round ball,
which is a hard rubber coated steel ball,
thus the light weight compared to lead,
using 100gr of Blue Dot under 300gr RE17,
total 400gr. Hairy load, with 3500 fps, and
20,000 ft lbs. Used the turned 4bore cases,
with shotgun primers, and with that light
projectile case doesn't need sizing. This is
good beginning bullet weight for early testing. 
I am gonna do 1200gr and 1600gr holding the
speeds to give about same energy.
I won't load heavier until I get another
stock like one I have  that is full width.
Also those who want 3.5" 20ga brass cases,
Rocky Mtn Cartridge is making them now.ED


----------



## hubel458

Tested 4bore with a double ball load of 1250 grains weight,
Used 100gr Blue Dot under 250gr of RE17, with card and
one fiber wad. 2600 fps. Recoil not bad, just brisk.
Used turned brass cases with shotgun primer, and cases
still didn't expand base. just size top.. 
Running about 23-25,000 psi.
The light ball load in above post
about 16,000 psi.. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some interesting shooting with 4bore.

Double 760gr ball load of  1520 gr total, at 2300 fps.

A buck and ball load, 6 45cal lead balls, 133gr each,
and a 760 gr ball on top, 1560 gr total, at  2300 fps.

Both loads 100gr BlueDot under 225gr Re17, In the 
turned brass cases, with shotgun primer.Recoil
manageable, and like a big push. The sound isn't
a boom like regular shotguns, but cracks loud
like big bore rifles,at least twice as as loud.Ed


----------



## hubel458

I got my 20ga FH 3.5" brass cases from RMC.
The case capacity in water is 234 gr.
It holds 215 gr of dense ball powder to the
base of 490gr 20ga hard lead slugs I have.
These cases use a 209Mag shotgun primer, and 
I have mouth ID set up for .620 slugs as the slugs
and sabots I have are that size. These cases will 
work good out to 35,000 psi, without extreme
expansion or resizing problems. Load of slow powder
will get 490 gr to 2500 plus at 25-27,000 psi,
6800 ft lbs, using the 30" barrel I'm getting to
put on the FBW Model L falling block.
! also have a case of the 3.5" factory Hastings
SPW, locked on sabot, loaded rounds to use.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is pic of the RMC brass  20ga 3.5" with 
Hastings 3.5" factory plastic case loads,
and 20ga Hollywood dies. Also slugs, Dixie 490 gr,
Hastings SPW and 900gr jacketed in the one case.

Second pic is  the FBW Model L setup that will have
20ga 3.5" chambered barrel in a second one. This 1st
one is in my 585HE.It is falling block in one piece
thumbhole stock, an idea I come up with on my
4bore falling block. Second Model L  will be built same
in 3.5" 20ga. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Transition, biggest to a smaller, in
putting falling block actions in one piece stocks.
First one was the 4bore, the big one in
picture and after it was done I got a FBW falling block
and soon figured out I could do the same with it.
It is chambered in my 585HE cartridge. 
And it is pictured above with the cases.
I built the 4bore, from blocks of steel.
The FBW is the Model L, and I'm doing second one
in 3.5" 20ga, to use brass and plastic cases.
And maybe later on when I find extra 700 barrel
we'll do my long 700HE in FBW....Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of FBW Model L in one piece stock,
compared to a FBW Model S in 2 piece stock.
Both are chambered in my 585HE.
These two plus the Wickcliff 76 and Ruger #1
will easily handle my 585HE with proper
weight and thick pads. These guns have
rimless extractors and my 585HE goes in and
out with least amount of metal removal from 
the feed trough, with much more power.
The Model L will have a 3.5" chambered 20ga
barrel to use 3.5" MRC brass cases and
Hastings factory or reloaded plastic cases.Also
I'm working to put a Wickcliff in 1 piece stock.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of a bolt action a fella on Practical
Machinist built for an 8ga. 4 rear bolt lugs.Singleshot.
He used section of 20mm barrel for barrel.. Real nice.
Idea would do for 10 and 12ga also I think.
Has an aimpoint sight. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of the fella firing his bolt
action 8ga that he made. He uses the
super strong, heavy duty, plastic cases
like we are using in the ones we made by
boring out NEFs to 8ga.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some have asked if the guy who made above
bolt action 8ga does them for others, no he only
did one for himself, and isn't a manufacturer.

Here is picture of a  cast .504" slug BPI 12ga sabot
a guy made a few for me and it has good accuracy with
our slower powder loads, with the sabot working ok.
Slug is 440 gr and hard alloy cast with decent
meplat for good penetration.But it isn't too blunt
so it has good longer range capabilities when you
get the speed behind it. Soon be the deer season and
guys are still hunting for their ideal 12ga sabot/slug
setup for loading their own.BPI is supposed to have
a new sabot this year..Ed


----------



## hubel458

The .504" lead slug I show for using in 12ga sabots is
one cast for using in .500" cases like my 499HE, by
sizing it after casting. Tried it at the .504" diameter and
it works in the sabot also. So it does double duty,
unsized  12ga sabot, sized and lubed in .500" use.

Some like short cases in big calibers, and have put up
various ideas. First picture is 12ga brass cases, two
2" long and other 2.25". Cases made by shortening
our cases we made by putting rims on bmg brass.
These can be used in Savage 210 and feed from mag
 box. Can use 2.5" Magtech brass shortened so  case
and protruding slug will be  2.7" overall and feed from
magazines of Savage & Mossy bolt guns. With 2.25" case
you can get 600gr to 1800  at least.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Have had a bunch of different guys shooting
the 4bore with light 11,000 ft lb loads.
All say it is a tremendous thrill.
Simply the greatest shooting ever.

So many have opinions on what is a real big bore.
I think really big starts at .585........
So in that vein I have made the 585 Hubel
Super Magnum, 585 HSE, giving a nod to necked
cases.Also can make the 620 HSE for 600 guys.
This is my only wildcat base case with a neck. 
Base and rim are .750", shoulder is .720".
and case is 3.7" long. Power in the range of
14,000 to 17,000 ft lbs. Can be used single shot
in the PH, the Savage 210, the Enfield. Not for
mass production by me, cases too hard to make.
An experiment with necked cases.
Picture of the case later.Ed


----------



## hubel458

20 gauge-- Fired factory 3.5"  plastic cased Hastings 395 gr
locked on sabot slug in 20ga with 30 inch barrel and
got 1900 plus fps. Same sabot slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, got 2500 fps. Case bases didn't
expand. Load of 150gr RE17 slow enough getting to
peak pressures is easy on cases. Dies work with
both case types.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some more 20ga- 490gr slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, got 2400+ fps. Cases very slight
base expansion.  About .001" above base.
Load of 180gr RE17, shotgun primer.Ed

Got asked about the Taylor KO factor, some of our 
cases.Max loads for my guns/cases combos.Ed

4bore in my falling block-- 1600gr at 2500 - 571 KO
700HE in my bolt gun----- 1000gr at 3200- 457 KO
12GA FH in my Savage----1000gr at 2500- 357 KO 
585HE in my bolt gun------750gr at 2800-- 300 KO
577 trex comparison-------750gr at 2600--278 KO
700NE comparison --------1000gr at 2000- 295 KO


----------



## hubel458

20ga testing- 600gr slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, 2300 fps. Very slight
case expansion above base.
Another load style- 12 number 1 buckshot,
about 510 gr worth, 2000. Glued a 20ga
card in the brass case over the shot.
Few more guys coming,  having fun
shooting the 4bore this summer. Ed


----------



## hubel458

There are fellas  who have and are planning on
doing hopped up loads and cases in the Greener GP,
Martini type action. Here is picture of one done couple
years ago by Aussie guy on NitroExpress forums. They
need heavy barrel in place of original. It has a rifled
Pacnor barrel and weighs about 9 lbs. In my measuring an
action here, they will feed a 3" brass case with a protruding
slug, like the cast Dixie or the Henson jkt slugs.
I like the looks of these old classic guns. And they are
strong enough with 3" RMC brass to get 730gr slug to
2000 fps...Ed


----------



## hubel458

A fella cast me some 10 and 8ga hard alloy lead slugs.
10 ga 1050 gr, 8ga 1320gr, fullbore, have large concave
in the base. Should need little more hollow in the base
for longer range accuracy. Just hard alloy, not heat
treated. Nice design, one wide groove, for lube if needed.
Fired one in NEF 8ga below, with heavy 3.3" plastic kiln case,
1700 fps, 9000 ft lbs energy. Entered backstop straight
at  40 ft.Have pics of the new slugs soon.
The new blue BPI 12ga sabots are out now.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Comparison of slug type and speed for accuracy.
Comparing better 12ga slugs for rifled and smooth.

The US-S 570gr slug,  with
locked on base does 2-3" groups at 50 yds
and  about 9" at 100yds in heavy barrel.
At 2000 fps in smooth bore.

Now a Dixie 600gr slug in rifled barrel  at 1300,
2-3" at 50yds- about 9" at 100yds;
BUT Dixie at 2000 2-3" at 50 yds and  6" at 100 yds.
It seems that slower slugs in rifled barrels losing velocity
gets below the speed of sound at 100 yds which
affects accuracy. Of course super heavy bullets, like
12-1500gr, make it harder to start out fast
enough to be supsonic at longer ranges.


This accounts for the guys info I posted earlier about his
high speed in  rifled 20ga killing deer at 160 yds.
And holding tighter groups at longer ranges.
He kept velocity above the speed of sound......Ed


----------



## Major Wader

Cool stuff!


----------



## hubel458

About slugs going from supersonic to subsonic.I understand
it is that blunt bullets that are in most shotgun slug/sabot loads,
do not maintain best accuracy when passing back under the speed
of sound like spire point bullets do.Speed of sound about 1150 fps.

Now on, FED 239 primer  in 8bore and the 4bore cases I have
with shotgun primers. They almost as strong, from my primer tests
as the kiln primers from WIN and REM.And they seem to dent easier
in my 8ga testing than FED209 or the REM kiln ones. I get them from
the 3.5" 10 and 12ga Fed primed magnum cases. Makes ignition surer.

Lotta guys want to try Magtech 2.5" 12ga cases. Well they are
stronger built than any of the old time brass cases I have seen.
About dollar each, go in same chamber as plastic, same strength.
The rifle looking cartridge in a slug gun is what some like..
If you have break action load them with protruding slugs any length.
If  auto or pump in 3.5" chamber load them up to 3.1" overall
with protruding slug and you can feed from magazine.
RCBS has sizing dies. Loaded that length about the same power
as a 3.5" plastic case roll crimped on same slug, magnum load.
Don't leave  air space in Magtech, but use wads and seals
like in plastic cases..Ed


----------



## hubel458

I found some 4bore plastic cases, 4 inches long, red
colored, looking like an oversize 12ga Activ case, They are all
plastic without a steel insert in the base like Activ cases
have. No markings. I understand they are Fiocchi.
They are the size for the 4bores that are about
.950 inch bore. They are suitable for shot loads of moderate
pressures. Guys loading them say they stretch out after
a few loads. And they use about 3 oz shot. 
I will test them with a light buckshot loads
of nine 45cal buckshot, 140 grains each.
Total 1260gr, a little less than three ounces.
In picture are plastic cases with brass ones 
and 3.3" 8ga.Ed


----------



## hubel458

When I made the 16ga FH, shown earlier in this thread,
I had couple bmg cases that were partly worked down, and not
yet expanded to 16ga mouth size. With a rim on it bigger than the
base which was .770". Well, I've had guys ask if I would ever
have bottlenecked cartridge. This led me to a way to do one.
I made rim .770, left shoulder diameter, swage case sides straight,
and expanded neck for 585" size. Cut the case to 3.7" length, and
we have  585 Hubel Super Magnum, HSM. This will be my only
bottle necked wildcat. I can make the mag box on the MRC PH
long to feed case..Good for over 16,000 ft lbs, Regular 14,000 ft lbs.
Will that put trex in small letters.....Pictured with 505 Gibbs to which
it has nearly identical larger shape and good side taper for easy
extraction, with heavy loads.And I can make cases like I do with
my 700HE.Case hold 250gr ball powder under bullet.
It'll work in FBW Model L..ED


----------



## hubel458

Shot 4 ga plastic case with 7- 140 gr balls, 980gr total
1800 fps. Used duplex load- Blue Dot 100gr, - Re17 150gr.
A card and couple nitro wads under load and card over, glue gunned
the card in. Shot loadedin two rows of  3 and 7th on bottom
in recess in the middle of top wad. Red plastic case ok some
expansion. Just about the limit for an all plastic case.

Here is picture 0f 585HSM and some other cases.
Gonna test  a few in trusty ole Enfield  I shot
the 700H 3.25 in with extra rear lugs. Change barrel
lengthen port.It won't do maximum real hotrod 
loads like when I put it in PH later, but it'll
outrun trex.2nd pic... ED


----------



## hubel458

In the 4ga plastic case a 760 gr ball at 2000 fps
extracted ok.  3oz #2 shot load at 1500 ok.
More 8ga stuff, fired a 2 ball, 820gr load at 1600
with all the RE17 it had room for. We fired 1300
gr cast full bore 8ga hard slug at 1700. Found a
guy who can do them. Here is picture of his 10
and 8ga cast fullbore hard slugs. 2nd picture is the
585 HSM case sectioned with a competition case
showing how strong brass is.Ed


----------



## hubel458

We found some 585 hardcast, sized and lubed bullets.
Works ok in my 585s at high speed. Shown in picture.

We showed 10ga slugs above, Another easy to do 
10ga slug load is the 10ga wadcups for lead BPI has,
with a 69cal swaged lead bullet in it that Dixie sells.
It is hollowbased and 750gr.You can also cast .69-.70
lead slugs for wadcup use. Also use the same wadcup
for buckshot. Some are showing interest in 10ga
due to NEF making them with heavy bull barrels.
Another experimenter has got a bunch
of RMC 3.5" brass 10ga cases, and will load and test
the fullbore 10ga slugs shown above. RMC can do
them about any time you want.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of the 3.5" 20ga brass case in
FBW falling block. Nice cases by RMC.Shotgun primer.
Using 395 gr sabot get over 2700 fps. 600gr
over 2200. Cases take many reloads with 
minimum sizing. One fired 8 times, still good
and the slower powders get the velocity
without the hard shock to cases, compared to
fast shotgun powders. And the hotrod Hastings
factory loads work in the gun also.

Guy got new design 8 and 10 ga slugs with
bigger hollow in the base. 1100gr for 8 and
900gr  for 10. More accurate in smooth bores.
Will let everyone know when he is ready to
make a few for shooters.Ed


----------



## hubel458

I like singleshot break actions. I found another brand that will work
to make heavy barrel 12 and 20 ga FH. By monoblocking in heavy
barrels. It is the CBC Model SB. It has stock mounted like more
expensive doubles and O/U. And nice shaped pistol grip stock.
They have the nice stylish look like the Win 37 and Stevens 94.
But they are heavier built, just need heavy barrel.
I going to do a couple by monoblocking in heavy barrels, one 20ga
and one my 585 HE like I did in the NEF.And they are 50 to 100 bucks.

That action is a 1/8 inch wider than NEF, has big breach diameter
like NEF 10/12 gauges. The bearing surfaces on the pivot is .300"
wider, and pivot block is 1/4" wider. Pivot pin is 1/10" bigger.
The action is a 1/2 inch taller, and extra diameter at breach end.
In fact you could build a real hairy 8ga on its wider action, with
a heavy barrel and a new pivot block welded on.Ed


----------



## hubel458

More info on doing 20ga 3.5" in break actions.  Nice
to do them in falling blocks, but they aren't available
for decent price. One choice, heavy barrel NEF 20ga,
lengthen chamber, but barrels are too short for proper
burning of large loads. Longer barrel better and helps
with recoil. And in a break action looks better to me.
Brass cases from RMC 7 bucks, decent price compared to
600NE brass at twice that. Many guys want 20s  along with 
the bigger. So you put a heavy barrel in a gun like the CBC
which is low cost and put extra toward the barrel.
Which is why I started research after getting a CBC,
as it is about perfect for the 20ga added heavy barrel.
Or in NEF, a little more. Or other singles, if heavy enough.
And you still fire factory 3-3.5" slug loads. And 3.5" brass
20ga will do same as 600NE factory loads, in a gun at
1/20 the price. That is reason we are looking at monoblocking
20ga barrels to make heavy strong guns, that can 
get great velocities, less cost.. Like 600gr to 2200 or more.
Added heavy barrels in right actions will hold all the
pressure the RMC brass operates at. And remember one
experimenter has 20ga kills at 160 and 230 yds on deer.ED


----------



## hubel458

More info on 10 and 8 gauge slugs. The guy got some
made with deep hollowbase, 10ga 900gr, 8ga 1100gr.
He will make them for a buck each. 
Bob Bigando in AZ. (bobiano at yahoo.com)
Good price as they are nice hard shiny slugs.
For seals for 10 and 8 gauge you can get regular 
card seals and nitro fiber wads, but plastic seals
will do better, about a 100 fps in the faster loads.
Plastic seals for 10 ga are at BPI, called - X10X.
For 8ga I cut bottom seal part off of the 8ga wadcup
that BPI has. For extended accuracy in smooth bores
you can screw the seals on to the slugs and that
will make the overall projectile more front heavy.
Or better yet screw nitro fiber wads to the slug,
like the Brenekkes are. Good smoothbore accuracy
Use slugs with seals on, with slower RE17 that fills
case so no fiber wads are need.Just seal and slug.ED


----------



## hubel458

I talked about these 12ga jacketed full bore slugs earlier, 
shown below. Well now BPI has something similiar in
their new catalog. We have tested some and one guy
got a 3 shot group that is nearly touching at 50 yds
in a scoped NEF Ultra slug gun. They can go real fast in
our 3.5 RMC or our real long case.They are hollowpoint
and fairly streamlined.I fill them with plastic glue for
better streamlining.Fullbore and no sabots needed.
Relatively light weight, to lessen recoil.Ed


----------



## hubel458

The 12ga Brenekke slugs with locked on base and the USS-S
slugs I test have led to other combinations that I've put
together using different slugs and wads. The object is 
60 yd accurate, economical slugs for reloading smoothbores
that in the reloading process we can get more power also. 
Like the Lyman cast slugs in thickwall 10ga steel wads,
with the slug glued in and wad cut off even with top of slug.
Then with wad cut even, you load and can rollcrimp perfect.
It makes a real nose heavy combination that is as accurate
in smoothbores, as the expensive 10ga foster style slugs.
Another one is the hollowbase 577 soft lead slugs that Dixie
 sells, I put in a thickwall 16ga wad that BPI has. I glue it in
using Goop, a thick glue that hardwares sell. Epoxy works.
Another one is 20ga ga thickwall wad with 54 cal hollowbase
soft lead slugs. All these and others can be loaded for a fifth of
factory for smoothbores, and be as accurate as foster slugs.
And our slow powder loads seal good with wadcups.
Representative one in middlle, 10ga.Slug glued in tight.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some wonder if only trying for foster slug accuracy at 200 feet
or 60-70 yds wasn't the best goal in a smooth bore, But if you get it
at 20% of the cost you've made a big gain. And most deer here are
killed at 30 yards. And putting slugs inside of thickwall wadcups,
with corresponding nitro wads under slug to get slug to the front
of cup, slug glued in, makes them long and a little more accurate than
foster slugs. Reason is the forcing cone in smoothbores. With the
long nose, heavy combination of wadcup/slug, the back of the
wadcup is in case yet while the front gets into the bore, past the
forcing cone, for a straight start. Little better accuracy. Like the
accurate US-S smoothbore locked on base slug, that is long.
The longer the nose heavy slug/sabot combo is, the truer it flies.
And most of these combinations work in brass cases with
thick walls like RMC cases. They fit real tight for my cases. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Penetration with slugs-Had a bunch of
wood blocks up to 12" through.

20ga load is a 54 cal 410 gr slug glued in wadcup.
Gives the same effect as Brenekke with locked on base..
Good in smoothbore at 50 yds.Goes through 
6" block of wood easy/

Buckshot load in 4bore, 9 140gr  45cal balls at  1800,
all zip through  3/4" OSB and keep going.
In 4bore 760gr steel ball zips through 12" block of wood.
going over 3200 fps. Wood is dried hard poplar.

In 10ga 3.5" plastic case, a 900gr hardcast slug at 1800
fps, through same kind of block easy. This slug I put
on a screwed on base with plastic seal and  wad.
I've also put plastic seals and fiber wads on 8ga 
slugs to test later..

12ga 600gr hard slug at 2100 zips through 12" 
wood block like it was putty.In a 3.5" RMC
case in NEF.

Anyone wanting one of my loaded 585HSMs to
collect or look at, let me know.  750gr
slug in this at 2800 in Enfield test gun.
Soon have barrel in PH and put the real
speed to it. About 33-3400.

Will soon have the heavy 20 ga barrel mono-blocked
into the 12ga barrel setup on the CBC break action.
Make a nice looking gun. Also going to put the 8ga heavy
barrel I had in Enfield for testing into falling block
built like the 4 bore one.Maybe done by summer.
Will be in one piece stock like 4bore.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Finding real slow powders that works with shotgun primers,
without starter powder. We found RE-17 and surplus 7383.
To recap faster rifle powders we use -VV110,IMR 4759,4227..

On the thread we've written about real slow powders like
H-BMG we've used with a starter powder, IE 15gr of Blue dot,
and H-BMG in amounts from 150 gr to 230gr in 3.5 and 3.85
inch brass cases. And 3.5 " plastic cases. 860-1040 gr slugs.
Tested in NEF with long heavy barrel.

We finally got some RE-50,a really slow powder like H-BMG.
It works with a real  magnum shotgun primer with heavy slugs,
860 gr on up, in 3.5" RMC brass, 3.5" plastic and our long
brass case. I used  239 Fed primers. Lighter  slugs
only give squib loads.RE-50  Is a powder made like RE-17
with the deterrant all through the grain of the powder,
rather than all on the surface of the grains, so it will ignite
easier, to get the initial combustion started.

 In brass case used 240gr with 860gr slug, 1950 fps
 and 220gr with 1040gr slug, 1750.
In 3.5" plastic 860gr slug with 180gr RE-50, 1500 plus.
Now these velocities aren't earth shattering as powder is real
slow, but cases don't expand, not even plastic case base cup.
And no starter powder. Nice thing is just fill cases
leaving room for slug and seal and no worries about
to high of peak pressures with heavy slugs
or cases expanding to stick.

Now to get 239 primers get Fed 12ga long red
3.5" primed cases from BPI. I used Fed cases,and took out
primers and used in other plastic and the brass cases.
Some guys trying to free up 239 primers for us reloaders.
Federal puts them in 3.5" mag 12ga loads and 10ga cases.

Elsewhere  it was reported someone may do a 16ga sabot.
Also a guy got huge antlered buck with hotrod 20ga. Ed


----------



## hubel458

I have a way to compare primers without powder and slugs,
for a lot of my experimenting. I use a short 24"barrel 10ga.
The barrel being shorter I can see the sparks and flame.
I fire off the primers in case with no powder/slugs.

I have just tested to see if magnum FED Fusion and Triple 7
inline muzzleloading primers were as strong as FED 239.
Just the two brands to test in the 10ga to compare flame,
sparks and bang, and they were not as good as the 209
Remington STS ones I like. They only put a few sparks out
of the barrel.The REM 209 STS and Fed 209 M had 3" fire out the
barrel and the Fed 239 had about 5-6" out the barrel. And 8ga
Rem and Win kiln case hotrod primers 8" plus....

Previous post I mention trying to start H-BMG slow powder with
8ga kiln primers without success. Which is why we figured out
using a starter powder like 15gr Blue Dot. Then it works great
with any shotgun primer. Guys here when they see misfires with
shotgun primers and H-BMG only, and the see starter powder loads
go off in our big 12ga case like a tank cannon, they are
flabbergasted at the difference.ED


----------



## hubel458

I mentioned in the threads earlier a 16GA FH case
I made from bmg brass. Then I put it in a 16ga
Stevens 94 break action by lengthening chamber
for the 3.5" case. I kept speed and pressures down
as the regular barrel on the gun had a thin muzzle.
Now I found a thick heavy 16ga 32" alloy tube and
I had extra Enfield test action, with the port
opened for longer cases. I turned it 1.1" at the
muzzle. Nice and heavy. It does a 630gr 16ga  
'Greg S' slug 2400 and 385 gr Lightfield 16ga slug
to 3000, without the bottom 2/3 of the case
having to be resized. With RE-17. I have these cases
setup for shotgun primers.The Lightfield has it own 
seal on the locked on base and for the 630 gr use
a BPGS and Flexseal over powder.. Ed


----------



## hubel458

More info about the seal and cushion for 16ga
630 gr slug. Plastic seal works best.
It is a BPGS type seal, IE, a one way seal,
and a flex type cushion. The seal/cushion,
is the bottom part from a 16ga wad cup.
Like bottom of trap commander wad.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture the CBC 20ga FH setup
by mono-blocking a heavy 20 ga barrel
into a CBC 12ga breech section.The 20 heavy
barrel is threaded into the mono-block made
by cutting off 12ga barrel. These CBC actions
are taller and wider than other break actions
and the locking lug block works better and
nicer than other break actions.Also shown
is 20ga 3.5" plastic and brass cases.
Second picture is PH action with port lengthened
for 585HSM, shown in action. I also have second
change barrel for 700HE long case for this action.
Imagine over 20,000 ft lbs in a PH, for 700HE.
Also shown behind is a PH with 700H 3.25"..Ed


----------



## Nastytater

Wow...Now thats a Rabbit Shooter...


----------



## hubel458

Here are some  20ga slugs/sabots we rigged up.
I traded for whole box(hundreds) of 20ga Hammerhead
slugs, in the picture. They had pulled slugs
out of the locked on plastic base, so I glue them
back in so base stays for fair smoothbore accuracy.
And I also glued in various 458 bullets, as shown,
which fit tight in cup, up to 500gr. They discard
on impact. Fair accuracy at 50-70 yds. Less expensive
shooting as I have pile of hard lead 458 slugs.

Idea on 8ga FH. Looked at a TCR87 break action 10ga
and the breach mono-block can take a little bigger
barrel.If I find one I can afford(pricey) I'll do 8ga.
These are very strong actions, a little smaller version
of the action setup Colin put the 2bore in.
Just put in straight 8ga bull barrel like NEF Ultra.ED


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of the 4bore in a more finished look.
Second picture is closeup of cases and 1520 gr
hollowbase hard slugs. The 4bore is smooth bore so 
hollowbase slugs are used. I set up gun with
smoothbore as that saved large amount of time and
money on the barrel. Ed


----------



## hubel458

I found 3 long brass 8ga cases to go with
the 3.3" plastic ones. They are an inch longer
and made by RMC. The 8ga barrel I'm putting
on a falling block will have the chamber long
so I can use both lengths of cases.
The plastic ones are from 8ga kiln cases with base
swaged a little and has shotgun primers, The 
long brass has shotgun primers. 
I use Fed 239 shotgun primers.Ed


----------



## hubel458

New super strong 12ga bolt gun just out, Savage 212, taking
over for the 210. You know I did my first 12ga FH in a 210 and
have posted that sometime I'd like to get a thicker walled
reciever built to have more strength and safety.
Well Savage helped us out.

Its reciever is 1.5" diameter, where the 210 was 1.36" dia.
I has a large .900" diameter bolt, where the 210 had regular
110 bolt inside bolt carrier. It has a fitted bolt head like 210
and other Savage 110-116 rifles. Only its bolt head has two  lugs
where the 210 had 3 lugs. Its two lugs about 90% strength as
the 210s 3 lugs.Its about 12% stronger lugs than Enfield and 
Rugers. Also it appears the bolt raceways are not through the
barrel thread area so about 50% stronger barrel connection.

Price not too bad 500-550. I'll try to find one later to do some
hairy cartridges in. It has a 3" 12ga chamber from factory and
detachable magazine. Probably can have mag and port lengthened
and feed ok, with 3.5" 12ga and the 700H 3.25". More info 
as I find out stuff.Picture from auction-e.Thanks to
Bob in OR for info.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some more info on the Savage 212. I looked at one,
got more measurements. The port is 3.812" long.
Can be made longer. Bolt travel is 4.625" and can be .50"
longer. And with full diameter bolt can have extra
lugs in back. The Mag box has room for extra length in
front of it and behind it. It could work for 12ga FH
and 700HE long case.

A fellow on Gunsmithing forum found a way to make
jacketed slugs using copper tubing caps, the solder ones,
by putting them in a die and using a shaped punch to form
a round nose copper jacket, that can be filled with lead.
He made .700 cal ones, different dies/punchs  could
be made .729, 12ga size. I got a few here and going to see
what is possible. I got bigger caps also to see about 4ga
and 8ga ones. Here is picture of the CBC break action with
the 20ga heavy barrel mono-blocked in, with action open.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Would have posted back quicker but computer 
hookup down for afew days..
Here is picture of 16GA FH I mentioned earlier doing in
an Enfield.  Got 630gr slug  2400, compared to
the first 16GA FH in thin barrel break action at 1600.
I use 630 gr full bore slugs and the 385gr SPW
saboted with locked on bases.

Opened port and changed bolt stop. Reamed
front so case fit through action into barrel and added extra
rear lugs. Same process that is used to do Enfield
 in my 700H 3.25. 
I got some of the work done on 8ga in my falling
block design, like the 4ga I've done pictured earlier.
Will get pictures posted later..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Experimenting for fellows trying to get speed with heavier sabot slugs than
the lightweight saboted 4-500 gr kind of slugs, in 2 5/8" length brass
cases for where length is limited..

Using 770 gr sabot slugs with locked on base, by US-S.
These are long sabot slugs due being brass and locked on base.
Real hard to do with these due to lack of powder space for the RE17
and IMR 4759-4227 that I like to use. With 770 gr and 60gr 4759 got 1450 fps.
With 75gr Re17 about 1350 fps. Both of these all case will hold under sabot.

For contrast using full bore 730 gr Dixie with just seals under it, much more
powder room, with 95gr 4759 getting 1800 plus and 130 gr RE17 1700 fps.
I went to faster powder, my slowest shotgun powder, Alliant steel, to try to get
speed like full bore slugs get.

These listed are max loads before brass cases expanded to much and started
sticking, due to sharp expansion step, where the base goes to the side with a
real small inside radius on this particular RMC brass case.
47gr Steel,and 770 gr slug 1400 fps.

So I tried the 570 gr US-S with 53gr Steel,and got 1700 fps. Same slug with
65gr 4759 got 1650. You can put in more Steel but cases stick more.They won't
blow up, just stick. And cases expanded that way are hard to resize.

The first 3" brass I got years ago, same problem with
a sharp step expanding above the base. So when I had 3.5" brass made
I had them do a long inside radius from base to the sides. These with extra
room for powder and cushion are much less problem. I think where you have
to use shorter cases, you can use plastic, as a 3" plastic is 2 5/8"
when crimped and will do the same and only be 20 cents or so new.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of a big bolt action a fellow on Homegunsmith
built to put big cases in, for his own use. It is of better looks,
quality than most other single shot actions, of that style being
built by others for sale. And that is absolute
sexiest bolt handle.
Also the fellow made a recess type of die and shaped punch
to make large caliber, copper bullet jackets, from plumbing
copper caps, and then put melted lead into them from 
the back. He uses a big hammer, works great.
I got a few different sizes of caps and they are
perfect for bullet jackets. Right from hardware or plumber
supply places. ED


----------



## hubel458

Answering questions;  bullet jackets from copper tubing
caps. This process makes  jacketed slug with covered
nose. With heavy soft jacket as opposed to a
solid turned slug from solid rod or soft lead slug.

1/2" caps can make .700 and 12ga size jackets.
5/8" caps can do 8ga and maybe 10ga jkts.
And 3/4" caps can make 4ga. These cups are
malleable enough to shape into jackets,
without a 20 ton stamping press.

Interesting info about our posting of this subject on
about 5 dozen forums. One big general forum thread,
that we posted some info, has about 5 million views.It is
Mil Photo Forum a big world wide forum..  
The top forum of the bunch, with whole thread on it
about 120,000 views, 2nd about 110,000 views, 3rd one
about 104,000 views, 4th one about 102,00 views.
We greatly appreciate all the interest from all
the forums, of all sizes. And all the help
and ideas too...Ed


----------



## hubel458

You know of the 4 bore we did on falling block, 
with its 1 inch bore.Using turned cases and cases
made from 20mm brass. Our cases have a rim and
straight sides. A smith in the EU made a 1 inch bore
gun on a bolt action, using 20mm brass expanded
to take 1 inch bullets. His case has a shoulder to
head space on. It is called the Inch Gun by some.
It is a really nice looking gun, with great 
craftsmanship.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of the 8ga falling block we are working
on, partly done. It is built like the 4bore one in a
one piece stock. IT is built .150" narrower than 4bore.
We used the heavy 8ga barrel that I first
put in the Enfield bolt gun for a 8ga testing. The breech
block, linkage, lever, pivot is done, as you can see
in picture with lever open and breech down.
I have got to chamber, put in firing pin, do
hammer and trigger. 8ga gun  in 1st picture.

Hammer and trigger setup is now mounted and moves
on the back of the breech block on an extension.
I also made this change first on  4bore, 2nd pic.
It uses NEF hammer and spring and Stevens trigger.
Breech block set up same as 4bore just narrower.
Later hope to do a 2 bore and same setup only
breech and action a little wider.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here picture of the 8ga from back. This action will also
do 12ga FH, 10ga, 700HE, 600NE,50BMG,etc. The breech 
block in this and the 4bore are 1 inch thick front to back,
 with the width different. The bottom of block is same on all
and uses same linkage and lever; same hammer and trigger.
The 4bore one will do 20mm, as that is what I make
the 4bore brass from. When I do 2bore, breech block will use 
same design, but just be wider on the top of the block.
The recoil pads are over 2" thick. I made the stock
from a 2.5" thick blank......mostly by hand.

This action will hold much more pressure that the heavy
built plastic 8ga cases can take , and they are good
to over 20,000 psi. Like a 1000gr at 2500.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Guys wanted more particulars of Hubel FB..
Here is picture, empty falling block receiver
from the top...2nd  a side view of the breech
block with back extensions, with hammer and
trigger. Hammer has safety cocking notch.
The lever, not shown, connects to linkage up
inside the two bottom extensions.Ed


----------



## hubel458

A fellow in Texas picked up a Tula-Toz  4bore
pump gun like Big Al has. He is getting some 
of the 3 inch brass 4ga cases from RMC.
RMC still has them if anyone needs them.
That gun takes a short 4ga case, either brass
or plastic if you can find them.This 4 gauge
is a .938 inch bore, smaller than our 1 inch one.
Pic is Al's gun.Bolt has 4 locking lugs...ED


----------



## hubel458

Here are pictures of the Falling Block breech block.
Front and side rear view....Notice the integral bottom
extensions are narrower than the top. These are
what the linkage is inside of and when breech is
levered down these fit though the slot in the stock.
And being narrower the slot isn't too wide so the
stock has enough strength. Bottom extensions same
width for all action sizes.Just top different
for the size of action needed for big cartridges.
This breech is little rough as it has had a dozen
changes to it. But it holds a load in 4 bore
of 1500gr over 2600.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some more slug ideas--First picture of 10ga 830gr
hollow base slug in 8ga wad cup,  And  690gr  hollowbase
69 caliber Dixie Gunworks slug that I swaged down a
little, in a 12ga wad cup. 
2nd picture is  the a new offering from the EU,a
new 300gr US-S slug with locked on base, discarding
petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate in smooth bores. 
In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun
powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders
I could get over 2800. Ed


----------



## hubel458

That US-S pointed slug with discarding petals,
and locked on base, shown above is called the
Swift 12. And correction on the weight, it is 320 gr.
And they plan on testing and maybe supplying 3.5"
versions, planning on getting around 2500 fps with
shotgun powders. I know in our  3.85" case in the long
barrel Savage, I could get over 3000 with big amounts
of our slower powders we load with.

Bought some tubing caps And here is picture
of those copper tubing caps, you can make bullet 
jackets out of, and fill with lead. In picture you see
a rough one I formed with punch, and with a die they be
perfectly formed. And with right die they could be
formed with round nose with edge  step for perfect roll
crimping in plastic. And on the right  see big caps that
would do 4 bore.There are caps between the two sizes
that would do 8ga...Ed


----------



## hubel458

That US-S pointed slug with discarding petals,
and locked on base, shown above is called the
Swift 12. And correction on the weight, it is 320 gr.
And they plan on testing and maybe supplying 3.5"
versions, planning on getting around 2500 fps with
shotgun powders. I know in our  3.85" case in the long
barrel Savage, I could get over 3000 with big amounts
of our slower powders we load with.

Bought some tubing caps And here is picture
of those copper tubing caps, you can make bullet 
jackets out of, and fill with lead. In picture you see
a rough one I formed with punch, and with a die they be
perfectly formed. And with right die they could be
formed with round nose with edge  step for perfect roll
crimping in plastic. And on the right  see big caps that
would do 4 bore.There are caps between the two sizes
that would do 8ga...Ed


----------



## hubel458

More 12gs slug/sabot info-- About discarding sabots.
Most factories making sabot slugs make them relatively light,
300 to 350 grains, and that is why they are on average 
more accurate than what guys try to reload with heavier 
slugs in the sabots. Reason is light slugs don't damage
the sabot, while they are trying for high velocity.
Example is picture of Hornady SST sabot and it only has
a one way plastic  seal over powder, and a hard
rubber cushion inside the sabot under the 300gr jkt
spitzer style slug. Many 12ga hunters say these are 
the most accurate.

Another slug idea is a blunt nose jacketed slug of
675gr I made from one of RG's hollow point jkt slugs.
I cut part of jacket off of the front and swaged
it over  to make blunt nose. These are for the guys
trying to make short loaded brass case rounds
in 2.5" brass and 2.62" brass to be no more than
2.75" overall to work in certain guns. it is
on left, 2nd pic. And gets good velocity with just
good BPGS seals under it and slower powder.
On right is US-S sabot with discarding petals, locked
on base we tried in short brass case, and can't, due
to length of sabot get in enough powder to get
the higher velocity with heavy 700gr US-S slug, the 
guys want to get.....ED


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of my big 585 cases.
30-06 for size comparison.
3rd is 585HE - I have it in bolt, falling block, 
break, etc, actions.

1st is 585 Hubel Super Magnum - Designed
for strong bolt guns. Have in a MRC PH.
Can get 20,000 ft lbs.

2nd 585 Rimmed Hubel Magnum and I have it
now as a single shot in an 1887 Win. 
The 87 has a 30" heavy barrel. Case is
designed to use in break actions and run about
25,000 psi, but due to the size of the case
has enough powder so can get 15,000 ft lbs.
It is 4" long, and could be called 24ga FH.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some 10ga experimenting with slug loads.
In NEF with 32" factory, long bull barrel.
It is smooth so we use hollowbase slugs

Cases  FED 3.5" plastic cases, roll crimped.
900gr full bore slugs -180 gr RE17- 1800 plus.
Use plastic powder seal and fiber wads.
Slug hollowbase and hard cast.

740gr 69cal hollowbase soft lead slug, in VP100
10 ga wadcup. Deep hollowbase slug ..Wadcup has  own seal 
and cushion. 180 gr RE17 -- 2000+ fps.

Here are pictures of a couple other different guns in
my long 585HE cartridge.. 1st is Olympic Arms
BBK bolt gun, in a target style stock with palm
swell pistol grip...2nd is the one I made on a CBC
single shot by mono-blocking in a heavy 585 cal 
barrel. Barrels- CBC breach  1.18"-- BBK breach 1.32"
 1.070 muzzles.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some 28ga FH info and ideas.
Brenneke now has 28ga slugs, with good speed,
decent smooth bore accuracy. About 260 grain
slugs. SAme style as their 12ga ones with locked
on base.Work in 28ga NEFs of course and
28ga O/Us.Some real good 28ga O/Us out there.
28ga is a .550 Inch bore.

But now Rossi has out, a revolving 28ga shotgun
with about a 19 inch barrel. Should work ok with
those slugs. You could also get RMC 28ga brass cases
about 2 3/4" long, maybe 3", depending on chamber,
a shorter version of our 28GA FH 3.25" case.

Maybe I get one in the future, and put on a longer
heavier 585 cal barrel and set it up for my
585 Short HE. Have a switch barrel 28ga/585.
Neat gun.Called Circuit Judge....Ed


----------



## hubel458

I found a picture of 28ga Rossi Circuit Judge. Barrel is
smooth bore , could be little heavier barrel, but it will do 
ok with the new plastic case Brenneke slugs,
260 gr at 1450 fps..Could do  2000 in a little  longer
brass case from RMC.

28ga is a 550" bore in a rifled bore.
24ga is about .585 same bore as my 585, and 
most all 577/585 stuff. The 28ga chamber with minimum work
would fire my shorter 585 with a switch barrel 585 bore.
And still work with 28ga with 28ga barrel put on.
Difference is the case thickness with the 28ga case
being nearly the same OD as my 585 drawn, stronger
brass cases.

The Brenneke slug has a long locked on base and seal,
connected by long post, that you can see inside 
the case in picture and pictured on the box
Quite a long tail so to speak for
good smooth bore work.This is a great step forward
for 28ga slugs, as most reloading slug stuff was only
100 grain balls or other super  light slug designs...ED


----------



## hubel458

Some have a need for supply of full bore 12ga hard alloy
slugs about 620-650gr. So a couple guys are opening up
their Lee Key Slug molds to full bore  .729"  It will still
have the partly hollow base and key. I will do the 
short brass cases with the first ones I get, to get loads
developed. The slugs are about same length as 
the 730 gr Dixies.They have blunt round nose and
can be roll crimped in plastic cases ok. Load of 90gr
of IMR4759 in the short brass or 3" plastic cases
will get 1800 plus in 24" barrels.
I'll Have pictures later to post.

Also here is picture of my 585HE in a Khan
shotgun action. Operates as a straight bolt,
straight pull action for now. Barrel is heavy,
30" long, the butt is weighted. thick pads,
it fits nice, looks great. Ed


----------



## hubel458

10ga FH ideas..Ok I think the most stylish guns in the world
are nicely built over/unders. And there is a heavy duty
10ga over under made by Armi San Marco, imported by
Cape Outfitters. That is one brand I've lately
seen some sold on GB. Others just as strong are Armsport 
shown in the picture below, also
American Arms, and Richland Arms.
And probably a few more.

I'll be trying to get one I can afford, I could  
ream one chamber for 4.05 brass case
for slugs, and leave other for 3.5" magnum shot and slug 
loads in plastic cases. But if we left both 3.5" you'd
still have a hairy gun. You can buy 3.5" new plastic cases,
with hot Fed 239 primers for 22 cents each.
Make a real great combo gun.For slugs with 
the right weight slugs.Don't go real heavy.

For slugs use the hollow base hard cast lead
900gr in brass case, at 1900 fps,that the 
guy in AZ makes.In plastic about 1750.
Those are not a full bore loads,needing real thick
barrel, but that heavy O/U has barrels ok for that,
keeping pressures at mag shotshell levels.14,000 psi.

These modern O/U actions can take pressures like the
heavy duty NEF SB2 10-12ga frame, if barrels were thick
enough.20,000 in 10ga. IE the actions are real strong.
Ruger has made O/U rifles on their O/U frames,
and others have made big bore rifles
using modern over/unders. I like idea of O/U
double ten slug gun knowing the speed we have
gotten with our slow powder slug loads....Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke,
a locked on base ounce slug in sabot at factory speed of 
16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.

Second is Federal Deep Penetrator, 1 oz, copper plated
and a harder lead alloy, than Federals regular slugs. 

Third is  Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,
penetrates very well. About 1  1/8 oz.

Seeing the slug base attached deal from Brenneke, 
in a sabot I figured out the following.
The idea is the new BPI blue sabot, being undersize for
12ga, is a perfect fit in a 10ga bpi wadcup, The blue has no
cushion on it so it sits in cup ok and a roll crimp works.
Just shaved bottom edge corner and fits bottom ok.
In 32" heavy barrel NEF 10ga, and 10ga 3.5" plastic case,
gets over 2300 at less than mag shotgun pressures
with 440gr slug in blue sabot.

If I can find thin wall 10ga wadcup the 12ga bpi AQ slug
would work even better, as it is for smooth bores....Ed

More pictures of the Brenneke and Fed slugs-


----------



## hubel458

Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
I had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
it out to cast a .729" full bore slug. In picture
is a regular soft lead Foster style to compare with.
Slugs are hard alloy and can be speeded up ok.
In 2nd picture is two MRC 2  5/8" brass cases with
slugs in them. These slugs with those brass cases are
being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN.
The slugs have real good shoulder to
roll crimp against when used in plastic cases.
These first ones are 500 gr. We are going to
work on another die to get the weight about 600gr,
that the brass case guys want to use.
Lee molds are not real high price so it isn't
a bad deal to get them and change them.Ed.


----------



## hubel458

The first full bore Lee Key slugs were 490 gr,
 that we had made. Good for 2300 in  3.5" plastic
and 27-2800 in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the 
long barrel NEF.

For the 8ga Hubel Falling Block pictured
above; For now using 3.3" swaged kiln cases. We swage
them to fit the 8ga chamber in falling block.
The barrel is real thick so we can run 50-60,000 psi
if we want in that action. The heavy duty 8ga plastic will
take about 23000 psi. A MRC turned brass would do
35,000 psi. But the plastic does so great,for now I'm
staying with 70 cent 3.3" plastic, primed with 239 primers,
good for 4 shots or more.

And I have the REM wadcup, on left in picture, with
its own seal, that they use for the kiln slug, which works
for various other slugs and shot loads.

In the 8ga HFB - 3.3" plastic cases- 
1020gr 2000 -- 900gr to 2200  ----   770gr to 2400---
and triple ought buckshot load--- 
9 - 70 gr  000 buckshot, in wadcup. 630 gr total-- 2600.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Remember Swift 12, from above-Well 2nd picture is penetration tests with 
them. Over 2000 for 320 gr weight in plastic cases..
3rd picture is an all aluminum version without brass center
from penetration tests. 198gr at  about 2500 in plastic cases.
Now the locked on bases are not burnt and the reason I understand
is they use a thin card between seal and powder, up inside the
seal cup.This info and testing by US-S group in the EU.
The plastic cup seal out there might benefit from that, like
card disc inside the cup of the BPGS and similiar seals.Ed


----------



## hubel458

In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
than we have today, so our work is a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.

And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed


----------



## gstanfield

Good to see you still going forward with these projects Hubel. I haven't been on handloads.com lately to see your posts. Keep up the good work


----------



## hubel458

Thankyou- All of the guys doing stuff likes appreciation.

Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures,
above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting.

Many have success with all  kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems 
as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s  are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH ....
Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl  on Nitroexpress.

2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain,
next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only
sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with
if ever available..

3rd picture is from my Greener book, of  double 8ga elephant guns.Ed
















 .


----------



## hubel458

You can see various operating 4bore.etc shooting
on you-tube. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores
called the Field I think. Looks like some other
side levers, looks like  lever works forward.

And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the
start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
bores only wider.

I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed 
out to the two bore size. 
And a square hole for breach block done 
in that hunk of  4130 steel.

Other experimenting, a while back, when I made
 my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a
620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design,
IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor.
Using 600NE   .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case.
Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one.
Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight
only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the
585 Short HE had  .027" total taper both sides. And any
Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed


----------



## hubel458

First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
speed in older doubles, with just short rifling section at muzzle, 
that didn't have real heavy barrels. Second picture from Greener
book here, is  of older 4 and 8 gauges.

Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore, 
from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.

Testing factory 20ga Hastings sabot slug 3.5" hotrod loads, and
reloaded with 20ga SPW identical slugs, 390gr, goes about 2200
from 30" heavy  barrel. Load was 75gr of 4759. 
Factory is about 1900. For regular modern barrels you could
do with 65 gr and get about 2000.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some info about our slower powder reloads in plastic and 
brass cases with shotgun primers for modern 12ga guns. 
I now prefer the IMR 4759 over 4227 as we have had
some delayed firing problems when the loaded cases get
real cold with 4227..And with slower powder loads use
magnum primers. 

A side note,in same vein, you know I now use FED239
mag primers in my 8ga and 4ga, but we find they they really
solve the real cold gun, ignition problems, in muzzle loaders
using black powder substitutes, with shotgun primer
inline guns. We tested 50cal  and a primer sold especially
for ML when fired,no powder, only saw a tip of the flame
out the barrel, a FED209 mag about 4" flame, buta Fed 239
Mag primer about a foot of flame.

Some more info from the old days, here is picture of
a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.Ed


----------



## hubel458

A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
Base for rifled barrel,  little smaller diameter than the front. 
Looks like the roll crimp locks against
the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
flat meplat slug on the  front of the base like 
the US-S brass slugs fron Greece are on the 
plastic bases that I have here. They must use a crimping
die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
in middle to load longer nose  slugs further out so as to
have more room for our slower powders.ED


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of 4 long cases of
RIP's on the AR forum.
Top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge 
3.5" turned brass 20ga. In 20ga 
getting these and lengthening chambers
allows use of the 3.5" 20ga plastic also.
Some factory guns are 3.5"

Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga.
Chambered for these you can use 
3.5" 12ga plastic also.Some guns are
3.5" from the factory.

3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass. 
Bottom a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case.







Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs
into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove
which made it possible to crimp that way.You can
see one of those slugs in the picture.







Testing 490gr 12ga full bore Lee style slugs in 3.5" 
plastic at 2200. Works in the long barrel rifled NEF  and 
the Khan 12ga 3.5" auto smooth bore. 

In same guns the 570gr US-S brass slug with
locked on base at 1900 in 3.5" plastic worked also.
It is great to see a smoothbore slug like the US-S
that is as accurate as fullbore slugs from 
rifled barrels.Maybe they will be imported soon
from European Cartridge.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here are couple more pictures of longer bullets
in sabots, loaded in plastic cases, with the
roll crimp down against the sabot. Both are
ideas tested by European Cartridge in Greece,
who make the US-S slugs. Both longer bullets 
pictured have the locked on base that their
other US-S slugs have, for smooth bore accuracy.
2nd picture shows a deep hollow roll crimper
for doing slugs like these.Ed


----------



## hubel458

This picture of an RC4 brand slug I see is available
down under. It has locked base like Brenekke.
And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S.

And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs 
by fellow on NitroExpress forums from
double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds.
This shows the posibilities of smoothbores,
rather than not trying to perfect them.

3rd picture is a discarding sabot base, and with
four discarding sabot carriers, with centered 
penetrating solid bullet, from France.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.

First is a long pointed slug with locked on base,
It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore.






Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.






Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can
get for reloading, and we're finding that these
locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are 
giving good accuracy in smooth barrels which can
save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in
grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts.

First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug,
with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube
groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't
quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown
in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight.






Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take
57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM
Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the
REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also  is sabot 
with 20ga cast Lyman. On right sabot with hardcast 585 cal
640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat
case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit.
Also the .575 cal Dixie Gunworks lead slugs will do.

Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one,
fairly tight fit.We  cut back .3" of bullet off so it 
fit for length in sabot and is 750gr.






Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and
the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we
and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high
speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too
much plastic. IE, sabots too thick on the sides if doing
50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs 
at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at
the greater pressures and violence of high speeds.
Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug
better to impart spin in rifled  use. Example in
smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug
is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to
be very accurate. And with both reasonable priced sabot
offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy
problems, etc,  maybe time to try something else.

Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured
12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others,
and maybe we can  find where these are made. As I have
huge numbers of the 585 slugs, which by the way I think
is best hunting combination, without extremely heavy slugs
which suffer for the speeds needed for longer range use. 
It is hard lead, good for big game.And my guy can make many, 
many more if needed whether for 585HE rifles
or in sabots if we can find some.ED


----------



## hubel458

Some more sabot and slug ideas, discarding types
and locked on base types.

First picture of 20ga Buckhamer pulled apart. The bunch
I have were pulled apart, the slug won't lock back in
tight, into the base.






Second is various 20ga sabot/slug ideas some using
buckhammer sabot bases that a bunch of 458 cal lead
slugs and jackted slugs I have, lock into real tight.
The 458 lead ones are 400gr, jkt are 350gr.

And I got some empty SPW 20 gauge sabots, and 20ga 
Buckhammer slugs lock into them real tight.I have 
many of these slugs. These slugs are 440gr.

Also is 3" 20ga FED factory sabot shell and one of
discarding  sabots out of the case. Also a 3.5" 20ga 
Hastings 3.5" load with black locked on base sabot,
and sabots out of the case and couple 20 brass 
3.5" RMC cases.






Next is variety of 12ga sabots with 50cal slugs
in them.2 white and the pink sabot are FED, The black
is Hornady, With a 50cal long bullet . 
The grey, is a BPI with .504" cast 440gr slug.
I wish the BPI was full size like the others
and fit rifled barrels tight for accuracy.........






Last 12ga SPWs from Slug-R-US(30 cents ea) with various
50 cal slugs locked in tight, and shown with one out of
a factory load, the dark colored one. 50cal 385gr
Great Plains ML slugs lock in perfect for a lighter
loading. Other ML slugs  will do and a few of
the Dixie Gunworks 50cal slugs lock in also...Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some more slug setups and ideas.

First is USS brand sabot that European cartridge has, without 
locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug.
It is as accurate in rifled barrel as its locked on base
counterpart, in smooth barrels. Up to 750 gr brass slug
I tested. 3 shots in an inch, 30yds.
Shown with BPI powder cup seals.








2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison.
With corresponding length cases they were designed for.








3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and
1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr.
A guy in Southern  MI made a few for me to check out. Now these
too hard to fire fullbore, damage rifling, must be in plastic.  
These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like.








4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style 
58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy.


----------



## hubel458

Here is some more older cartridges and ideas.
First is a fellows collection of older brass cases.
They look like Berdan primed. Run from
36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge.






Second is a paper case clad with
thin  brass nearly to the top.






Third is picture of paper case crimped into
the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one
pictured above with a Dixie slug.






Some experimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea
that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above. 
A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal
slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed. 

For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones
that have been available, for reloading guys. That
the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy 
at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in
most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much
more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have 
had to work with. 

I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase
Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from
heavy long  barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at
30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200.
Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic.
Can be loaded faster. 

No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder
than witches ---, and no time.
I am trying to find who makes these.There are
about 2000 injection mold companies in US


----------



## hubel458

Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,
with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot
section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the
slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower 
powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier
so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs
isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore
accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels.
This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original
setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried
it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup 
seal, and forced it on for a locked fit..
Slug is .629" diameter.






Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with
the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving
nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.






Here is old time picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores.
Man what nice old guns.






Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work  for
close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which
might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of
sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are
like ones we want to get made for reloading.
They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug. 
I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled
barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.
Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.
The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow
base isn't as deep say  as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they
have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should 
make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.






Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two
different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart
I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.
All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always
near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal 
cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore
test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and
the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect
system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show 
and magnify difference between the two wad setups..

What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent 
weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that
sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.
That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.
Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger 
percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no
cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion
disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.
The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot
both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.






Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up
with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.






Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)
around the net. We are very happy with the response and help
we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help
to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into
the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,
reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.
All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.
And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being
being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go
over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,
third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate
Reloading  112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED


----------



## hubel458

Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that
can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.
If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as
high as others who have to set up complete machines.
We  are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones 
made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to
have similiar design as the ones pictured below
but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots
with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show
what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.
With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal
Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.
We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5
58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,
as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for
58cal cast slugs, by different companies.
The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs
and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.
40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.






Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr
Remington plastic  nose bullets. I used some in my
585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how
fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in
my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.
They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.
Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.






Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style
break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style
break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on
actions like this and great value for no more
than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.
We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can
use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are 
working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield
type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier
smooth barrels.






Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,
a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.
2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express
on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job
on nice looking slug gun.Ed


----------



## hubel458

The sabots we are working with, take about 15 different
58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of
sabot at.733" with all of them in. There are 4 Dixie 
Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of.
Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading
slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses.

Examples-58cal (.575"- .578")
Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs
Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights.
Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc.
And they are all good slugs at a saving especially
when folks cast their own.

I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading
suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a
quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with.






From the research on sabot patents and testing by various
of our readers, the sabots can't be undersize, or accuracy
at high speeds isn't possible.  I get questions about how
to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases
for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need
to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not
fullbore cast....Why; they want lighter for less recoil in 
regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper,
they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't 
have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs
for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover
a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing
their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive
 factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much
more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second,
one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from
a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas.






Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action
we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like
the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup,
an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it,
to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have
setup on NEFs, and CBCs.






Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock,
and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid. 
Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like
all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels
and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the
extra weight.


----------



## hubel458

Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well
and even these sabots we want to get made, open up. 
The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.
The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.
We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these
style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the 
aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some
due the economy.











Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.
Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.
And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we
want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.






4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot
gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.
It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern
20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.
In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder 
and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad  pressed flat. It is 
shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed
you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important
wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as
straight as possible for accuracy.

Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best 
velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift
which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the
slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom
of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed
sideway some of the time.  That is why we are trying to get tight
fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals
with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.













Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore
with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.






Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch round called  the 
"Lethal"  and the  "destructor".







Fifth picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.
Nice beautifal old gun.Ed


----------



## hubel458

I think we found good overall sabot design that will
be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals
and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.
It is same simple design as the ones pictured above
but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact
for more room for our slow powder loads, and when
using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning
which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges
of slower powder, better velocity with less case
expansion, and more reloads possible.

We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots
for penetration until now.. They did very well,
two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried
timber, pushing out some wood on the back.
Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great
for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.
Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is 
nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked
that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.
Slugs can be  loaded faster, cast heavier,
and cast harder for any need.And compared to other
way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once
we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing
bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel
leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs
compared to short fullbore ones....


Here are pictures of  molds that can make cast 
58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working
on.There are many makers and brands and styles
of molds and weights available.












Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase
lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore
I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base
bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.
The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from  Lymam mold
like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has.  I bumped up the
diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.







Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.
Great looking gun..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want
to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,
with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.
In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead
alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on
exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through
a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be 
gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.
They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.
I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in
2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range
from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them
down to 350 gr and less.











Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out
of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with, 
and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on 
to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how
it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have
here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.






In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style
gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most
all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with  bull barrel.
Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom 
lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.
Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one
in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put
on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..






Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula
for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,

You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by 

the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.

Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"-- 
all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.
The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal. 
The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.

The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.
The 585HE  Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.
The 3.5  12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.

The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.
Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder

But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder
it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.

AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,
heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder
at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure. 
Possibilities are really great fun. Ed


----------



## Swampfoxoutdoors

OK please excuse my ignorance but can someone PM me and tell me How this conversion is performed on a NEF 12 ga. and info on where and how to form brass or where to buy it and lastly where to get projectiles. And loading also.


----------



## MaBel

Swampfoxoutdoors said:


> OK please excuse my ignorance but can someone PM me and tell me How this conversion is performed on a NEF 12 ga. and info on where and how to form brass or where to buy it and lastly where to get projectiles. And loading also.




Are you looking for details? I can't imagine where you'd find any sort of details regarding this topic.


----------



## hubel458

You just ream Nef chamber out to 3.5" and get 3.5"
brass cases from RMC. And you can still use 3.5 plastic and
BPI has cases cheap. Gunsmiths have reamers.
All the info in the thread in different places.
Bpi has different slugs. You can cast slugs.
And if you cast 58cal slugs there will soon be sabots
for them. If new to shotgun get a Lyman Shotgun
reloading manual.

Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two
in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding
58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform
to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help
for better accuracy. Hope they  get built for us this summer.
We are working on it.







Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a
thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first
load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows
great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better
in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP
guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.







Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way
they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many
others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist
and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting
the accuracy.







On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long
case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea
I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.


----------



## hubel458

Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer.

Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads.
The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in
36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like
butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little.

Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip
in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds.
This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug
More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels.
For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with
deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end
heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore.. 
Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also.

I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush
down off center, or it might affect accuracy.  Here is picture of
the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads.
Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would
allow it to tip or go off center.






Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded  69cal minie and 
700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to
50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.






Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the
stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed


----------



## hubel458

With an other scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch
barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie
in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate
5 for 5. Going  2000fps.

Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks,
10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types.
A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with
58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at..
And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made.
Bertram getting ready to make the last die;
done later this month and will be doing cases then. 
Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included.
He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as
I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship 
by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had
a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a
real good deal..

He will ship whole bulk order to me.
I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run.
I'll will get a bunch also, to load for others,
to fill orders, and collectors. Get 50 for 150 bucks,get
 100 for 300 bucks, 167 cases for 500 bucks.
I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets
and get it to me and I send them on to him.
I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to
the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge.
Want to make the run as big as possible. Got
money ready to go for over 700. 
Like to get 3-4 times as many made if possible.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Sorry, late in posting, bad weather, computer lines zapped again.

Some more experimenting with the Accutip sabots, Designed a 
two ball load using  .577" cast lead balls. Bottom ball flattened a
little in vise with the flats up and down in sabot.
Used a fold crimp,  3.5" once fired REM case in NEF, long rifled 
barrel.....Fold crimp goes down on the top ball...Round
balls  285gr each, going about 190 hit within 2 inches at 30 yds.

Those 58 cal inside  Accutip sabots are really versatile.
Tested 3 shots with 58cal Buffalo hollowpoint, hollowbase,  lead, 
muzzleloading slugs,  2" at  30yds. All loads with plastic x12x
seal and white felt cushion under sabot.

Experimenting with an Enfield, had one set up with my 700HE 3.25,
and just did one in my longer 700HE.  Did little longer port and
added little more weight.First picture. 2nd picture is a neat 3 barrel
16ga, which if I had it,deepen chamber, I'd  have a neat 16ga FH....Ed












PS---We are gaining on getting the big run of brass made for our 585HE.
He is finishing the tooling and soon be producing. We want make the run
as big as possible so everyone is welcome to help. You in US get in on
first order, cases are $3 each.Those in the US he'll send whole order to
me bulk freight, a big savings, and I'll get them to the parties involved,
no charge for helping out on first run.The $3 cost is a great  bargain
compared to other big bore cases and if you buy 150 or so you've saved
enough, over the cost of others to buy a barrel to make 585HE gun with.
My contact---   gunowner at journey.com

For those in Australia,Canada,South Africa,UK, and other countries
send pmt to Bertram and he'll send cases to you individually when done.
 Right now can't afford  export costs to send cases back out of  US...


.


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of the two ball sabot load, using two 
58cal balls in a 12ga Accutip style sabot.






Hoping we will have sabot like above for reloading soon,
in volumn so we can load and test a bunch of these 58cal
bullets and slugs. There are soft cast, hard cast, and
the heavier jacketed. These all work in my 585HE also.
The 440gr hollowbase ones loose in the big box on left
measure in at .585" and work great in my 585HE cases.






 Part of my 585HEs are smooth barrels guns
just for testing the different style guns, and different loads.
In the one smooth barreled one I have on BBK action, shooting
my 585HE with 440 gr hollowbased Minie slug, we were hitting
8 inch paper plate with them going about 2700 at 30yds.
Hollowbased they act like shotgun slug at short ranges.

Will be neat deal to shoot them in 12ga accutip style sabots in
rifled 12 gauges and the smoothbore 585HEs with $30 barrels.
Here is picture of Pedretti(Beretta style) that came as 10ga. I 
have monoblocked in  585 barrel. In picture there is 585HE case 
partly out of chamber. I have extra fairly heavy 10ga barrel
 also and changes in 2 minutes. And that monoblock break
action locks up like a bank vault.Real strong.








And an ultimate big bore from history.ED


----------



## hubel458

We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots
soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers.. 
We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run
for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch
this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info
if your interested contact me.

 We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums 
and Shotgun World are experimenting with  58cal Minie slugs and
 58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug 
 load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and
also  shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of
commander and use  felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575"
470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel.
That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put  in CBC below.

Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth
super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases.
Works  great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.






Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with  my 585HE in it. I put in a 
heavy barrel and different kind of extractor  Barrel is 28"..
I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just
to show all the uses the case has.






I found supply of super  long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases.
It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus.
I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done  in
a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed


----------



## hubel458

I found pictures of a factory 12ga over under that 
has bottom barrel rifled, top one smooth with screw
in chokes. Will have pics few days. Don't know
how heavy barrel is yet.

Also will have pictures and test of brass 585HE sent
here. They are 585HE case samples from the first big
run of my 585HE cases, Bertram is doing.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar
It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,
with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.






Good news, I got few samples of first production run of  my 585HE
cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.
They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace.
He made part of the run, a 1000, without headstamp..And over 3000
with headstamp. Cases only 3 bucks each  if you get in on the first 
shipment right away..Ship by mail to US cost too much, $1.50 each,
so we will have a bulk freight shipment to US as big as possible.
Folks in other countries order direct from Bertram.

This case can be used in different style guns.,
Bolt, Falling blocks, Break actions, Etc. I have reamers, and dies.
Manson Reamer can make more reamers,CH4D has dies also.
Earlier in thread I've shown various 585HE guns we have set up. Here 
is a break action, with 585 barrel monoblocked in, one my favorites, 
we just got done.







 I tested 585HE  moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti, 
etc, break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3.  Real
tough built cases. Cases, are real uniform. For high test loads we
 fired couple with 650gr at 3000 in Enfield bolt action, and it extracted
ok, and resized ok back to specs. About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.

First picture, shown is some he made without headstamp that I stamped,
and some with stamp and ones I made on the right..
Also they can be used for wildcats, shorter cases, etc, and folks can stamp
what they want. 2nd picture you see them in a regular # 31 shellholder,
they don't need a special holder.

In 3rd picture of sectioned cases, you can see how strong the cases are
in base and corners, strong like the ones I made, on the left in picture,
which were  real strong cases, that worked great with max loads..
The new 585 from Bertram on the right in picture.Nice strong base/corners.  
He supplies same base cases for 408  Cheytac, used with hot sniper loads
that run real high average pressures..He will be manufacturing
these Cheytac runs regular, so we can get ours made anytime 
we get money built up for an order..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has 
one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
Nice looking gun.











Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander 
shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
And one 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220 
20ga,  with 20ga Commander  wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets 
measured about 2 inches. Four shots in two inches.Ed


----------



## hubel458

First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.






Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
12ga barrel for it..






Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting
with putting on a thumbhole stock.






Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to
make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of
five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links, 
if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed


----------



## hubel458

In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load 
various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've
seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we
are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.
You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.
And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.
CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo 
that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal 
muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the 
volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.
And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.
. It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not
needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.
It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length.
 Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.
There is .548" Sharps style 2nd  in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is
54cal Great Plains in picture on left,  Far right in picture is 550 Magnum
jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety
of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but enough
to find good simple combo.  Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in
CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. 380gr going over  2000 fps.
Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.
Fits  in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..











Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong
singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta, 
and the Magtech 199 shown above.






Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.
We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with
the 58cal  .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads
with a interchangeable chokes. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW
wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.
We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just 
shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.
Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..
 We also shrunk the skirt  of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it
in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman
12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a
SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make
 bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.






I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE
case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one
on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed
the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the
unneeded front of the sear and the action metal above, giving
room to the back for cases that are 3.9" overall loaded  length.  






Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs  in singleshots are going
to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets  and use black powder 
and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,
Used 54cal,  60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,
and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.
As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga
card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.
There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can
stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that 
was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World set this one up






Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.
It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers
like slow RE-17 . It is made the same way as RE-17  as far as how  the 
deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter 
cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super 
heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging
peak pressurs down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in
BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE33 the basecup only expanded .002".
And the Fiocchis are the softest bases around.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to 
be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller 
45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.
This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

More info on the SPW sabots with  520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into 
them. With  3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500
they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same
combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on 
right is factory SPW.






Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590"  in this
12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of
Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.
That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of  epoxy holds the Minie slug
in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly
short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.
Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.








Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585
barrel.  This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the
back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed







As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up
24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use
reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load
say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card
and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about
airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you
can put in a card over the powder and about  3/4 oz of shot and have a real
speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put  card over the shot and glue it in.Ed


----------



## NCummins

Wish I could buy one. And the shells too.


----------



## hubel458

I can get you cartridges, if you 're collecting.

First picture is of a nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up
and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.






Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead
roundball with section  copper tube,  wads compressed inside, BPGS seal on 
bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with
screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube 
with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.






Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases,  showing how 3/4
ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore  as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.
Just glue top card in. Some of our 585s are smoothbore  and the HB Minie
slugs work at  short range and the shot will do at short range also going
about 2000 fps. Could use 24ga  shotcup.






Next, Mossy 390 bolt action, with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,
and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as
the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed


----------



## kmaxwell3

Cool video!!


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in
the 1887 WIN shown above. They are  2  5/8" long cases and we 
get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed
these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length
as 3' plastic crimped little long.






Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall
10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit
VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga.






Next; further idea with Longbow's tube/roundball  slug shown above.
Use  tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in
a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used
in wads as opposed to fullbore.






Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE
cases. Got the idea  from Bret In Minn that  could setup 585HE 
guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to
make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire
in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about
4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have.
And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed
for 6000 ft lbs.  And one that long would have proportions like the
newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts,  that it could be
possibly be done,  using long 2400gr in smooth barrel. 
Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads.






Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock  and light
barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs.
Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels.  650gr at 2500 is max of 
what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load
.Little info about my 585 loads, like in the break actions and the 
Mossy in post above. I load about 85% max velocities, but to get
 85% we only need  2/3 the peak pressure, like 40,000 psi 
instead of  65,000...Ed


----------



## hubel458

We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs.






The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier  this week. And we got a bunch 
of testing already for opening and sealing,  and some accuracy testing .440gr 
Minie bullet, measuring .575";  with OD of sabot with slug in it of  .737"  It is 
perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all 
stayed  on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower
 powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case.
Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with  slower powders expanded
only a little, and those cases are soft ones.
We have big bunch of the sabots here now.







All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up.
With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting. 
Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling.  Most of the rifling grip is on the
bottom half of sabot, which is why these and  Accutips are best as the bottom
is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many
other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean..






The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did  not cut into the inside of the 
sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness.
Good Accuracy - In the cold and  very windy day,  hit milk jugs at 30 yds.
Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under
slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the
curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit...

You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots.
It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying  to get twice as many 
shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups, 
miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

Interested in sabots --   gunowner at journey.com   Ph-   1-989-644-5228
THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included,  or $20 for 50 postage included,
with a bonus  WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order,  5 with 50 order.
to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of a bunch of the sabots  with different slugs and bullets.
Back Row- Two roundball load, balls 285gr each-- pointed long  700 gr -- a blunt
solid 700gr-- tungsten slug 1000gr --- jacketed bullet -- 600gr.
2nd row-611 Lyman 530gr Minie- 500gr flat base- Lee 500gr hard--Lee 500gr soft
1st Row- Lyman 440gr old style minie-- Lyman 510 gr new style-- 440gr from Dixie
Gunworks--  400gr Lee target style. I like 440gr old style and 440 gr Dixie. For sale
on Gunbroker is all sizes and weights.. Or cast your own. Lots of moulds around.
Lee moulds only 20 bucks. Best diameters to use are .574    " to .577" Minies.
If you have ones bigger and they are not hardened you can roll them betweem two
hard surfaces and they will get little smaller. I have some that are .585"  440gr
and work in my 585HE and they can be rolled smaller.






Here are sabots with variety of seals/wads, and the shortest one in picture  with
white felt wad just fits  in 3" case with 80gr 4759, and still leaves room to roll crimp.
I compress it in hard. Now only faster powder than 4759  I'd use is Alliant Steel in 
smaller amounts,   50gr Steel, in 3", and  thicker wads and cushions like shown. 
To roll crimp over the top edge of sabot we had .220" of case before crimping.
You only have to crimp top edge of sabot real good.







After crimping the slugs are tight and don't move around. The circular rib inside the
sabot holds slugs  tight back into the base. Speeds over  2000 fps
will  be  gotten using 3.5" plastic cases, with our slower powder loads. .
More testing for accuracy yesterday, a warmer, calmer day, with steel sights. 
Hit. paper plate at 50 yds.

As said above, best to use right powders. Right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
that get to peak pressure slower, thus can  use larger amounts, can get to higher
 velocities, and you won't tear up the sabots and won't expand cases as much. 

 For most of you in 2.75" and  3" cases Alliant Steel is best.
FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75"  start at  40gr and go up to about 50. 
For 3" start at 45gr  go up to about 55. I like 3.5" best as you can load  much easier
for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62.
Case brands act different, but using the slower powders minimizes the differences
and keeps us away from surprizing pressure problems. 

In 3" plastic,most 4759 I can get in and still have 1/4"cushion is 80gr.... In the 3.5"
I can get in 105 gr with this sabot and get over 2000 fps, In these loads if using
480-500gr cut back 3 gr. These 58cal slugs can be cast or they are at Dixie Gunworks
and 4 guys on Gunbroker got them.  Get ones .574" to  .577"


Interested in sabots---      gunowner at journey.com         Ph-   1-989-644-5228
THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
Ours are 33 bucks per 100  postage included.
Or $20 for 50 postage included..
.Or 150 for $45 postage included----- ALL with a bonus  
WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order,  5 with 50 order. 15 with 150 order.
to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr......Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of 45-50yd target, used a scoped  NEF Ultra, the sabot load of a 440gr 
58cal slug in it at 1800... Measures 2.5" on outside for 3 shots.






Here is pic of almost 2100 of them. More coming. Time to
get them and get loads working. 






And A little funnin humor for us big bore nuts..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some more info about our sabots and various slug weights......
First and most important is our sabots fitting  real tight like the Accutip
Sabots, they will not get the same speed at the same pressures as
the undersize grey and blue ones, But they do leave the barrel
headed straighter and without damage, even with hollowbase 58cal 
slugs in them as the pics above show. No cards under slugs in sabots.,
But with good powder seals, using Alliant Steel, and good 1/4" minimum
cushion wads.

The 440gr Minie slug of .575"  in the 3" cases is the one I used as a
base loading, to work each way by weight to find what loads of
Alliant Steel work and extract in my NEF.  Using  3" soft base cases.
Here is pic of before/after of Fiocchi cases, on right unfired and left 
fired, 55gr Steel with 440 gr slug.






For 440gr max of  55gr Steel
For 400gr max of  57gr  Steel
For 360gr max of  59gr  Steel

For 490gr max of 52gr  Steel.
For 510gr max of 49gr  Steel
For 540gr max of  47gr  Steel.

I tested all these weights for extraction. It is real nice to reach into a 
bucket, grap a sabot that fits right, and go to loading and shooting.
Many of you need to get in on the fun.
Here is picture of Fiocchi with sabot, roll crimped. The top of sabot is 
perfect for roll crimping...It is setting under crimp tool in drill press.






Earler I showed the  585HE  Falling block with pistol grip and the light
barrel. Here it is with Knoxx Compstock buttstock. We added  2 extra 
springs inside for relatively hard recoiling gun, as stock originally made
for a REM 870 Pump. Works great and looks nice; will putting one on
the Magtech 585HE singleshot break action and got one in rifle stock
for Ruger 77 in 585HE.






And many guys want wildcats with shoulders, with big neck down, so
in developing the ultimate 700 blaster, here is the 700HSM. Shown next
to Gibbs 650gr ball powder..1000gr at 3800...How about that.
Will be one of only  2 guns I plan on being over 30 lbs, other is 2bore..
Whoppee.....Ed


----------



## hubel458

The sabots aren't moving and I got to get funds out of
them asap, emergency bill coming... And seeing as how
we're low on slugs to send with the sabots, in big numbers,
and no one has yet to buy out our stash of sabots and
set up so they can be selling the sabots, we will try selling
them fast in next few weeks . So to get these moving
out fast and getting tested, and we pay our bills,we will
be having sale on just  the sabots, in larger amounts only.
We will send one each of 440gr and 500gr slug so
the guys can see what we have found that works.

Because of the shipping costs and boxes that  2, 3, or 4 bags
of sabots fit in, that has an affordable postage cost to pay,
we have to sell these in 200, 300, and 400 size orders..
So,  200 sabots $47 Shipping included,  
300 sabots $65 Shipping included...400 for $83 shipping incl. 

Now 200 of the other brand X of undersize ones cost $68
plus shipping. There was dozens of guys the last few
years all over the internet that bought undersize junk, 
that wanted good sabots and complained that the ones
they bought elsewhere didn't work...... I haven't heard
from most of them, So  guys see if you got time, please 
help us out here..MO, Check, Paypal..Ed


----------



## hubel458

The sabots work in brass cases .First is sabot in a Magtech brass case,
next to 3" plastic.. In shorter brass it would hold about as much powder 
as in longer plastic if loaded like in the picture.. 
Sabots are about .734-735" with slugs in them, and
the Magtech brass with its thin sides still is slightly small OD at the
top compared to plastic, with sabot wedged in.






Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases
at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case
mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling
impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel
straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that
we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case.






Here is picture of a barrel and barrel on a gun from 20 gauge singlshots  that
 will have the heavy 20ga rifled barrel in picture, mono-blocked into them.


----------



## hubel458

What causes sabot problems/inaccuracy. Some pictures will help.
First 2 shows a skinny post that pushes on a cushion or sabot
bottom and it can bend or deflect which if that way when exiting
barrel can start sabot or slug crooked.












And more important item that can cause  lack of accuracy is if 
base of discarding sabot tapers or steps down so that it isn't real
tight as it leaves bore, which can allow it to be cocked.
On the left is our sabot which has base right and other brand
which tapers a bit. Easy to see.






Next is a ball and slug load in 2 of our sabots. A 285gr .575" ball 
flattened, put in the bottom and  400gr Minie above, two different
styles of Minies.






Here is couple 16ga discarding sabots I made from the undersize
12ga grey ones. Didn't have to take off much. Much better use
for them. I made them, after Paul in Alaska asked about 
where to find 16ga ones, to see what they looked like.
They still use 50cal slug.. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs..
20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison.






Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support.






Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr, 
but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs.






Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our
sabot. It has  five  flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing 
145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like
having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super big.






Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the
puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots.
Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now.






Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread,
to get over half million  thread  views.The HighRoad  second. 
TheFiringLine  third. AR fourth...Ed


----------



## hubel458

We have moved few thousand sabots.More here.
Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made.






A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US
and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet
of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585
with the solid turned  CEB bullets in them.






Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy
of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed.
Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list
and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed

Speed..Multiplier
1500------5
1600------5.7
1700------6.42
1800------7.2
1900------8
2000------9
2100------9.8
2200------10.75
2300------11.75
2400------12.8
2500------13.9
2600------15
2700------16.2
2800------17.4
2900------18.7
3000------20


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that
you can get molds for from Lyman,
Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter,
the best size for the 12ga sabots.







A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed






Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded, 
650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure 
Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left 
straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of  thousands Cheytac steady all 
the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed


----------



## hubel458

One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, Abolt, with wide lands in 
the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel 
and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759.
 It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy.

 My guns  have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759. 
Petals open  perfect. The Abolt barrel is about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and 
the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves.
Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here.

 He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using 
IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him 
go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of 
EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns, 
and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in 
sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using
Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if
problems occur go to 4759.

What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and 
wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide lands were not cutting into the  base of
sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface 
of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The 
4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed 
with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of 
way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into
the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..I showed pics above of the
good rifling marks impressed into our sabots.

I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems
across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just
the differences in factory slugs and/or reloading components.

Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for
wildcatting.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun
building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon
a barrel; and shipping,  for 750...Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with
black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is
an  Abolt barrel.  And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks
impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt
he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like
the faster powder did for him.





..
Next  is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you  roll crimp down over
 the inside of it a little .  We have lots of them yet.
The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp 
180 degree crimp down on top of it. 






We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting.  Mainly shotgun only, but 
they also  allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case 
1.8" or  shorter,  usually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The  I  is for Indiana.
Here is picture of it next to the kinda  little 500 S&W.  585 HI holds over 80 gr powder.

Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps.
The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs
We got  other guns with it going into;  bolt guns, like in the last picture,
 single shots and checking couple lever actions.
Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed


----------



## hubel458

In above post we compare the top thickness of sabots
.Here is comparison of the thickness of the sides of two types of
brass 12ga cases, the RMC turned case and the thinner
Magtech drawn case. Easy to see you can't size with same dies
and sometimes you have to use different wads..






In posts earler in the thread you saw variety of wad columns with
12ga sabots and here is picture of my favorite wads to go between 
seal and sabot. The white felt ones from BPI. They compress down
evenly on firing, easy to load, decent price,






You've seen the work on our 585HE posted. Folks ask what case
I made first ones from and how. Here is a sketch showing the steps
I used to make the first 585HE from long basic straight Nyati brass.
The start of the belt step I put on the case where it is thick I do it 
in my case spinner lathe I made. Then case is lubed and run into
couple swaging/sizing dies and comes out formed into our belted, 
straight sided, 585HE case...... It is really faster getting a big
run of cases made in a factory.







Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi
in 3" case, Going about 1700... ..   4" group 3 shots at 30 yds.
Gun works fine, shoots nice. Got extra weight in the butt.
The Minie I used is a semi-round nose. If I had the ones of same length
with blunt nose, slightly heavier the group size would be smaller as 
they'd be more nose heavy, be like Foster slugs..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of the group improvement a guy had shooting our 
sabots in a real tight barrel. Actually an undersize barrel compared
to Savage and Nef barrels. Had a wide open group with shotgun
powder but  made it much smaller using much more 
of the slower 4759.






There is a guy now in Canada with our sabots for guys there and
other countries, and as well, he can ship back to here. He plans
on supplying the .58cal slugs also for the sabots if guys can't get
them or don't cast their own.......
Contact is-   jeff.a.white at gmail.com
If things work out for him he plans on getting a bunch
 our 585 cases  imported for sales there

I got some factory 8ga kiln loads, 3 oz lead at 1800 in the long
barrel falling block. Got box of 25 to see how they compared to
the loads we set up.Our favorite is 900gr at 2300. in plastic case.






Here is picture of  section 585HE case showing 4 pyrodex 54cal,
60gr equivalent pellets, with a 440 gr Minie bullet. 
Actual powder wt  is about 185gr....Goes about 2600.
Nice cloud of smoke and really bellers out of the slow twist barrel
barrel we set up for minies.....Top pellet tapered a little and fit
inside thr hollwbase of the bullet....Ed


----------



## hubel458

Another use for 58cal Minie Bullets would be to setup a 24ga FH.
Minie bullets cheap to cast and buy. We use the .575-.577" in our
12ga sabot, and the .585-.587 in my 585HE. And you could use
577 NE bullets also.

For those in shotgun only areas there is a way. You can get 2.5" 
Magtech brass cases, but also you can set up a 3" chamber and use
577NE 3" brass. Grafs shows some under 4 bucks each. Cheaper 
than getting them made. And if you set up chamber with shotgun style
forcing cone you could shoot shorter Magtech as well as plastic cases.
Reason to use 577 cases, they are stronger solid head, last forever,
and can be run higher pressures and still last forever.
You can get barrels, 58cal at Green Mtn I think. .We got some also.

AND the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here,  more  
will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14 
that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks,  
1 to 20 twist.  And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly 
Minie bullet guns, and  bunch smoothbore blanks...Pictures soon.

Here are couple  pictures of a 585HE gun a guy is doing with nice 
walnut stock. Gun has extra bedding lug and accra-glassed.
It is an  Enfield and has single stack magazine.


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a
Mossy 390 frame,  .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size.
Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone,
so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass
cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE
3" brass.  Really make a hairy  24ga using the 440gr to
540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet
mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that
would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and
turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE.
And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep 
saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and
slug choices in the .585 size, easy  to find,  than any other 
caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and
cheaper if you cast your own.







Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks...
In back some of the cases and die sets.






Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with
the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels, 
1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper 
to .980 inch at the muzzle. Guys are doing more Enfields
and other actions through the winter. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases
but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than
plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers.
And case expand a lot and are harder to resize,
But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits 
those cases and still chambers ok. Not a sloppy fit.

So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length 
backbore job,  of .850" bore or bigger you could use
the Magtech brass and ,850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs.
Now these .850" slugs won't go in a 12ga plastic case
and chamber in regular 12ga chamber.

Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length
backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads
under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit.
The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr, 
and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum 
pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short
case can hold. 

It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions.
These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than
others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns
to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual
12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to 
minimum specs so cases don't over expand. 
In the picture are 2 10ga slugs on right, like in the case,
and 2 12ga jacketed slugs and one 12ga lead slug left.ED









Here is the ytube URL again for our guy
shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a
pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc


----------



## hubel458

Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop
the skirts from deforming, I found that dense dow foam works
 good, I was using glue gun but dow foam is easier, Just cut
plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make a tight
fit, use spot of glue inside,  glue that is for foam....
Trim off the  foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug.






How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on 
top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga
and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI
24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great
in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and
wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed.
The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with
the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases,
drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made.
And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single
shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage, 
even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII,  bolt action JC Higgins. .






Here is picture  Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH,  it is 3.5"
model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it
feeds/ejects through lengthened port  3" brass 24ga cases we
made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the  bolt  for 
slightly longer stroke.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals.
Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5".  Brass  3" can be loaded
to match 577NE power.






Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels
as our 585HE, This  one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys
have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels.






Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.
It is owned by the poster,  'tankhunter'  on the AR forums.
Built by his smith who has a reamer.
Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three
reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels,
Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed


----------



## hubel458

Finally got back to forums.Been busy with 24ga FH and  585HE
and getting 585 cases made, as many as possible...

We are now working  a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture
of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same
bore barrels. Main use difference,  24ga FH  easy setup in break 
actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.






Picture of  non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds 
458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
was pulled out and they wouldn't stay in tight. Sabot was a loose fit 
in 20ga, made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib, 
fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. Fits real tight to give
good resistance for good ignition.






Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452"   45cal pistol
 bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal ML. With  250 gr bullet in 585
will go about mach 4.






Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use  rubber
coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being  
too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and
we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed


----------



## hubel458

First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1.

If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed







I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise,  figuring out an
extractor is a  problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of 585HE 100 cases  loaded, CEB solid nose bullets
and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat
or wide hollowpoint. .






Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs,
and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve
sealing under what are heavier loads.  The balls are .600" and
315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells.






I need a bunch of empty  3.5" 20ga plastic cases.


Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
Express rimmed case,  that many big game hunters like, usually
set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati  with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid
shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil,
 to our 585HE the strongest yet.

The 577NE is an offshoot of  24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went
eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short 
cases and black powder,  cases built like shotgun cases, called the 
577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder, 
then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"
and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet
of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns
and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed
and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider 
was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a
24ga FH, a  slight regression to earlier times, by  taking 577NE brass, and
reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
stamp the caseheads 24 ga. 

For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing 
the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions,  and finding
reasonable price  rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.
The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are 
about a third the cost of  600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.
We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,
with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

Info about the power in  types of guns  normally set up with 24ga FH,
break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug 
goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
Now  using the better, heavier 3"  brass we got, we can increase speed
to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles 
energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
gun, gets us  near  2  1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the
actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
So makes  relatively smaller bore  shotgun, 24ga,  with  458WIN power.
.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed


----------



## hubel458

Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super
sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple
middle bands on the CEB  and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot,
which uses .575"  slugs.  Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the
sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a 
special made hollowed out long roll crimper.






Getting some more interest in our 585HE.
An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm 
PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places  14.5
cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases 
being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes
like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.

And  a PTRD with almost a  5 foot long barrel could  get 650gr
spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using
3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps.  Or get a 900gr at 2800.
Great possibilities for fun shooting. For  tactical use in a place
where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where
steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads.






I  like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the
actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. .
Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by
cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on 
inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like 
Ruger 77 handle, the one on  the right . Something even a novice
like me can do.....






A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr
ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint  can range in weight 450gr 
to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back.. 
The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE,
for  shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber,
and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed


----------



## hubel458

For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH
here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds  .451/.452" light 
bullets 225 to 300 gr.  A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil
but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about 
mach 4 with a top load..






Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long. 
It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow 
sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of  .980". we   got a
bunch of them and so does McGowen. 







Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.
It is .585" diameter and  650 gr and these particular ones are a
hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as
hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would
work in our 12ga sabot..






But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they
can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture
of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE. 
Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out. 






Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a
way to keep them together group wise.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the 
recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght,






Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in the 12ga  dangerous
game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells that DG slug.

.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




There is  couple 585 videos  on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;
Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1,  that was done in Australia.It was  set up
for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the
first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can
go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..

https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos


Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the
style of a CZ stock and metal will be  finished with a Gun Kote finish.








Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a
singleshot test gun.  We used a composite stock we
adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.
 Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.






And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is
just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.And the 24hr Campfire
forum has over a million views of this thread, ..ED


----------



## hubel458

The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by
target rounds like the  necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game,
necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but  the following one was way
 before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets.

One of  first  modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2,  the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum,
was first mentioned in the fifties,  It was made from BMG brass shortened  to 2.70" long 
and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked
down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder. 

They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe  fit 98 Mauser bolt.
Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as  
shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under 
a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case,  where our 585HE holds 
180gr under a 750gr'.

We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base 
and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter, 
and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did  
big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but
maybe  back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case,  by shortening the neck,
if they could have found  couple barrels full.

But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies,
multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,
which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular,  long bolt action, or 
falling blocks, break actions, etc, a  585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,
and moderate loads, last forever.. 

For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,
(not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite 
gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough. 
 To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G,
wildcatted  to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys
with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help. 

Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed


----------



## hubel458

Probably  first 375 caliber cartridge made from  585HE necked down,  the 375 Warlord.

Guy did a real nice job, with what looks similiar to a Weatherby style shoulder.

Kinda outdoes Weatherby & Cheytac. We have cases with no headstamps for wildcatters.

First notice of the case  sent to me  today off of a guys facebook. 









Another fellow is planning on shortening the 585HE  to maybe 2.4",  for use Marlins and Henrys,

and other leverguns, redoing their 45-70s. With the belt they will have good headspace control.

Without a rim that takes up space in a levergun action, say like our rimmed 24ga FH, a 585 bore, 

but which is perfect with that rim for break actions like our 24ga FH in a Magtech...Ed


----------



## hubel458

Sorry to be away so long, health, getting old, and interruptions.
Here is picture of a lightweight Barnes bullet in 24ga FH.
Guys cut the back off of  750gr bullet off to get 500gr weight.






Here is picture 58 cal Minie slug that's little long on the side  for our 12ga 
sabot, with the front of the slug above the grooves swaged to fit in
sabot. The swaged front third of the slug fits next to the internal ridge in
 sabot and the sabot doesn't bulge out.Just run front into a die
and punch it back out.






And some info about 12ga FH and other hopped up shotgun slug loads,
You know we  use couple of the  rifle powders, slower than shotgun powders, . 
We like to use IMR 4759 for some loads and slower RE17 for others where
we have room for larger charges. Those two powders are ignited ok in large
diameter cases like 12ga, 10ga, 16ga, etc, without needing BMG primers.
But we have always been looking for easy to ignite powders of the RE17
type, in all temps, that has a speed between the IMR  4759 and the RE17.  
RE17 uses different mfg process to put the deterrents in the powder kernel to
control speeds, which allows much easier ignition, because the deterrent is
not all on the outside of the kernel.   RE17 ignites easier compared to 98% 
majority of rifle powders with all the deterrent on the outside.

But there are some out there  made by Nitrochemie Switzerland, who makes
RE17, RE26, RE33, etc,  for Alliant. It's the ' RELOAD SWISS'  brand available
for those folks in UK and Europe, They are called-   RS 40, about same speed
as RE12,  RS 50 & 52,  about same speed as RE15,  RE60 & 62 same as RE17.
Also one ' Vihta Vouri ' powder  called  TR140 available  over there,
that Nitrochemie made..

Many guys can't get IMR 4759 anymore, some can't get RE17.
Be nice to get some of  RS 40-50-52 powders or  the V V  TR140 shipped, if ever
possible, into the states, would really be great help for hairy slug load work.
But the guys in UK/EU now can load some real hairy, slow powder, slug loads,
we experimented with, even though not having IMR 4759....Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of  375 Warlord next to our 585 case he made it from.
He is going to make couple later  necked down to 416, and 458.
There is another guy working on doing one necked down to 357 wildcat.






Here is a picture of our poster  Biebs on AR,  585 HE,  in a MPI stock.
He used a big Enfield action, with a  fancy jeweled bolt.






We found couple other big actions for our 585, that can even feed really
long overall length loaded cases,  like 4.5" long or more, if you are
using long pointed bullets for real long range target and hunting work.
One is Lawton 8000 Cheytac action, and the other is  Stiller Cheytac actions
made similar, just a  newer version. Both actions come in  1.45" diameter
 and a 1.60" diameter receivers.  

And Vestals Gunsmithing in Virginia does great work, decent prices, has  
these actions and will build you fancy 585 HEs. .. He has, working with 
another guys mag box setup, setup an extra long, good working, single 
stack, center feed, magazine..He has one of  our 585 HE reamers on hand, 
we have barrels, cases, and reloading dies..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here we kill two birds with one stone so to speak,

Best case sizer is the MEC Collet Super Sizer and it can double
as a case holder when we roll crimp. Much better hold than
the ones made to hold cases for crimping, that cost a lot.
Save cost of a holder, plus have best sizer around






Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE
in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First  laminated  thumbhole stock.
Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail
like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.
The scope rail is a piccatiny type.











The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil
block ahead of recoil inleting  for the longer action, drill new screw hole
Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.

About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the
sporterizing, welding  bottom metal straight. Many think straightening
is a huge job needing special jigs. Easier just use one being added on for a jig
with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old
extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.
When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind
the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.
The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!
Just keep on building...Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is a fancy stocked 24ga FH built on a NEF, built by
a guy in Canada.  Its straight back,  high comb
stock, handles recoil great.Neat looking work... Ed







About our 2.17"  585 BB  case for lever guns, pistols, etc,.
It is made from our 585 case cut back to 2.17" long.
With loaded length of about 2.8" work in lever guns, etc.
Work in 71s, later 1886s, Henry steel frames made for 45-70.
One guy is putting one in single shot action set up with
Contender style pistol grip for testing in long rifle barrel,
to simulate pistol  recoil..Be very brisk recoil in a case
that holds 110 gr powder under a light Minie bullet. 
Maybe work in a Rossi Judge with heavy barrel.
Or rolling block rifles and  pistols...Gonna try one  in 1887.
Got first one in one of our guys Greener GP for testing..

In some ways big bore shotguns and rifles are sexy.
By looking at the shape of the fire and smoke cloud....
Thanks for picture, to the great NitroExpress Forums site. 







Here is picture of another neat sporterizing deal for Enfields.
On those without rear bridge pocket welded up, we just mill down
and shape it so  debth of the pocket matches bottom section of
weaver rail and screw or epoxy it in. Shape to drive in hole tight.
Can use as a rear scope ring mount or mount for peep sight
like a compact UTG sight...Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is a picture from the back,  of a big Lawton action that
our 585HE fits in nice. Scope rail on there is tapered
for long range shooting.






Here is what our wildcatter buddy is making from our 
585HE brass to see how they look and experiment with.
He is getting reamers, dies, and gun setup first for the 375.


----------



## hubel458

A poster reading our threads said '' I'm slowly becoming a recoilapheliac''..
That is neat term , and very glad  that folks are catching the big bore fever.

Here is a simple, yet neat peep sight we can use on the rear sporterized
bridges of Enfields, works on other rear bridges also.Including shotguns.
 I like peep sights the best for most shooting. They also come with flat 
bottoms also for bridges and receivers that are flat on top.








Here is another pic of our guys 24ga FH in the NEF







On straight sided cases  like our 585 HE the die set has a mouth expander
die to make it easy to insert bullets. The die flares the mouth, but I always
felt that doing what is really a relative relatively sharp flare, and then the slight
roll crimping the same area of the case into a groove on the
bullet or slug, shortens case life.

So I just use expander plug out of the die, by hand, using just the bottom of
of the expander plug and just push it in a little, wobble it around a small 
amount, bullet goes in ok, case mouths last longer, good for dozens of loads, 
with moderate hunting and target loads.Only takes a few seconds and less
work that has to be done in the press ... Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of a hard plastic molded shotgun cases, holding
a slug, without crimping, a company is experimenting with.
These with light brass slugs supposed to do over 2000 fps.







Here is  video by Corlanes Sporting,  Dawson Creek, BC, CAN. 
Known as  Rocky Mtn Rifle.  Video is on Youtube of  testing our
585 HE in a barreled action, they are building for a guy. They are
shooting it into their big bullet trap with test load..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vzQjRGfT1A

 Allan and Grant Swan in Australia are building 585HE for a guy,
the second one they built. First one killed the buff pictured earlier .
AHR and Vestals will make folks here in US a 585 HE.
Here is another view of a Lawton action big enough for  585HE.. 






Picture of Rossi singleshot with 585 barrel mono-blocked  into it,
chambered for our 585 BB  2.17" case, for testing in a light rifle
with just pistol grip to simulate the case in pistols. Others going to
put case in leverguns,  autoloaders. We got lots  of cases. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of a great old time 8bore double.
I like those old outside hammer, big bore guns.






The style of most break actions singles aren't the greatest,  that we
we used for 12ga FH, 10ga FH, other caliber barrels we mono-blocked
in them like .585" bore for 585HE  and  24ga FH.. One that is close
that we have, is the Magtech.

 Well the guys have  found one that is super strong lockup and  looks 
real nice. And has the good quality look. It comes 12ga light shot barrel, 
soon  be monoblocked to rifled 24ga FH,  the little brother of the 585HE.

Told company if they did them NEFUltra style, rifled, heavy 12ga slug barrel,
for shotgun caliber only hunters, they couldn't make them fast enough.







Here is picture of 585HE, In an Enfield that  Bret and Darrel in Minn
set up with great camo finish, with nice brake job. It is in a Hogue, recoil
reducing, rubber coated, Compstock.Great job they did.. Ed






Here is picture from the rear of the Enfield we mounted the short Weaver
rail piece on. It is mounted in the sight pocket that the actions have;
Can hold scope ring or a rear peep sight like UTG makes.. Ed


----------



## hubel458

We will have arrived when we have this big bore in our back yard,
Kind of a neat suppressor, 







Here is folder shotgun, the  guys set up as 24ga FH.
Shoots nice, looks nice, it a more expensive break action,
compared to many others.







Here is another  view of what we feel is a nearly perfect 
break action. Guy is making a strong 24ga FH with it.







Here is picture of a  585HE  MRC PH a guy set up..







Here is picture of our shorter 585 BB for leverguns, etc, with
 variety of bullets..Can get energy like regular elephant guns..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is a Midland break action a guy is doing in 24ga FH.






Here is old  catalog picture of different stuff used in old days
for shotgun loads. Some would be hairy in brass cases






Here is picture of a MN  a guy is  doing 585HE in..
It is singleshot. Redid  bolt handle, mounted it on the bolt 
further back, so the port could be lengthened  for our long case.
Also puts handle back where it is easier to grab.
Needs, more shaping,  polishing, blueing, scope rail added.


----------



## hubel458

There are guys on Castboolits forum experimenting with
locking on plastic bases securely on slugs.
Making their own front heavy ones for smoothbores.

Here is picture of our 585BB case next to long 585HE.


----------



## hubel458

Here is a helix driver seal we made by cutting base from helix driver

wadcup, good for fullbore roundballs that are too big to go in cup.

Best one to cut off is shortest `12ga  one BPI has.









Here is picture of a 585HE made on a Stiller bolt action for guy in Canada.

It was made for the poster Spooksar on Africa Hunting and Accuratereloading, 

by Corlanes/Rocky Mountain rifles, in Dawson Creek BC Canada, with a 

Stiller action, Timney trigger. the stock is a blue/grey laminate. He imported 

the barrel, cases, dies, etc.. from us,  through Prophet River in Lloydminster AB. 









That action similar to  Lawton we had and neighbor got,  that won the King Of The

2 Mile shoot at Whittington,  with the 375 Lethal cartridge the neighbor made,

 from our 585 brass. Made it full length case,.. It is big one on the right. 

He made an 18 lb gun with McMillan target stock, a huge scope, tripod..

Nice thing is we don't need BMG action.ED


----------



## hubel458

Fellow big bore nut, Nathan Vale in AUS, has worked with

Bertram and got the  run of  full length  12ga From CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored cases done.

 Drawn 12ga long cases as strong as BMG brass with unbreakable rims. 

Any wanting to get some, contact Bertram at the email -----   

b.bertram1@bigpond.com    ...... 





Some more on wildcat 375 Lethal Cartridge and Mitchell Fitzpatrick's win.......

 .375 Lethal Precision Arms LLC rifle shooting prototype solid 400gr Berger bullets. 

Mitchell built this rifle himself using a McMillan A5 Super Mag stock, Rock Creek barrel,

 Nightforce ATACR MOA scope, Phoenix Precision Bipod, and a Lethal Precision Arms

 muzzle brake. Lawton  Action. Lethal Precision  his own  gunsmith  shop,  will make

these target rifles for anyone into target shooting and long range hunting..


Remarkably, Mitchell nailed first- and second- shot hits at the 2477-yard target, 

a full 1.4 miles away. It is windy out there, makes shooting hard with a time limit.

The prototype 400 grain Berger Bullets solid performed great, (G7 BC of 0.56 at 3000 fps). 









Here is  585 HE in an Enfield, in a Choate Heavy  Varmint Stock. These are super strong.

The  butts of these can easily be weighted.  Couple guys doing them.......  Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is a picture of the 12ga FH brass case that Nathan 

Vale had Bertrams make. Next to short plastic case.







Here is a picture of our 585BB headstamp. Perfect lettering

for our case as it came from production line,.







 I like Hogue stocks,  but they aren't made for singleshots.

We use singleshots for our 12ga FH and  585HE.

Here is picture of a NEF we set up for 24ga FH and we adapted

a Hogue  1300 Winchester Hogue to it. Looks a lot better, and 

handles recoil easier than factory, Butt hollow, easy to add weight,







Ed


----------



## hubel458

Our friend Brian from the far north went to Africa with his 24ga FH he did in
a NEF break action and got 3 nice buffs with it. Good job.


Our 585HE, 700HE and the great 12ga FH are now in the new COTW book
published  in Oct, now out for sale,







We now have our target 375 HE cartridge, made  by necking down our 585 HE.
The others couldn't make enough 375s, so we started our own. It has different 
shoulder taper, length, neck length, improved over the other one...Got a bunch
guys doing it, most into the 2 mile shooting venues, We're making cases,
testing, reamer prints at reamer guys, we are getting guys going. King of 2 mile
shoot last year really got the interest booming for  375 necked from our case,

Here's how we size and seat 375 HE, a simple die, a 1" die, no huge dies needed 
A die we can make with resize reamer from reamer guy, a regular die body,then
 pass on to the next guy, one reamer can make whole bunch of dies for folks.

I do primer work separate, not in the press.That way I can clean pocket, check
flash hole,....... SO First with lock ring set, I size cases.

When coming back out of dies with case, we notice the case still well centered,
 held straight, when it is down as far as the length of the 375 HE neck... IE
the sides and shoulder corner still supported tight.  About  .35" down.

So we put washer or another lock ring on, same thickness as neck length,
below original lock ring, screw down tight tight in press,

Dies had a 5/8 x 24 thread in top, had powder fill bushing and other stuff  same thread,
 reamed out from bottom to set bullet height, with ram, case,and bullet up,

After priming, loading in the powder charge, we  carefully start(boat tail makes it easy) 
 bullet in case by hand, slide up in die, into holder, raise ram to to top, bullet seated
 perfect. Die can have different thread in top as long as big enough to hold seating 
bushing of some kind , that can be made from many items.

These target bullets held in by strong neck tension, no crimping needed, and notice 
bullet point will get no marks or dents, fast, easy, no 380-500 buck special  dies. 
Bushing centering bullet on ogive is very accurate.

OVER 900 375HE  cases piled behind presses getting done. About 600 on another 
 bench nearly ready. Small batches in shelves.And we will do more. 

All 375 info, prints, specs, pictures, load data, etc, is public domain, worldwide,
for any target, hunting, etc, use..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of  one of 3 buffs our guy from Canada got in

Africa with  our 24ga FH he did on a NEF,  in 2nd picture














Here is the neck die setup, with insert stems/plugs for the top that

are set in .020" steps to make our 375 HEs shown behind

from our 585HE cases. 900 cases behind and 600  on

another bench, mostly done, and 600 started elsewhere, 

We  also made a hydraulic form die, 375 HE test gun, starting with

lighter bullets, for example got 340 gr to 3700, 

Will test up to 400gr We will find top speeds and powders needed

to get that, and have info where to get powders.  Reamer prints are

at reamer guys, all prints and info is public domain... Ed


----------



## tv_racin_fan

Now I see what you guys are hunting with those rifles. 

Awesome!


----------



## hubel458

Picture of fellows at Vestals Gunsmithing test firing  585 HE

they built for a guy. They got 750 gr to almost 2800 from

ultra short barrel, not a full load . A regular barrel  would be

 over  2900,  14000 ft lbs with full load..








Picture of our 375 HE cases, with little 378 WEA on left.

Middle case is with 330 gr, right case is  400gr bullet.







Here is picture of out 375HE testgun, in heavy t-hole stock.

So far 340 gr to 3700 and 360gr 3600.







Next 416 HE target case, these run through the hydro-die, 

test gun done,will complete testing soon, to confirm specs. 

When specs set, info will be sent to reamer guys

Soon will have  408 HE with specs set up also, for guys,

Smaller case 416s and 408s can be reamed out for

our  bigger case .Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of a brake on 12ga FH with real hot loaded
hollowbase lead slug, brake needed more clearance
for  the expanding slug.







Here is the  before and after of  375 HE cases,    
 2 on left necked,  2 on right formed in hydro die after necking..






Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are experimenting
with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR case.
Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured.
Holds over  280 gr ball powder under bullet. In the picture,
1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 HE, 4th 378 WEA.

416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG action,
470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target, singleshot 416..
Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough barrel
to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and srtill  be under 50 lbs.
A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit. 






Here is picture of  the 416 HSM fireformed once, 
next to bmg case we make it from and as we 
improve wildcatting process next few weeks 
some specs may make small changes, now from 
base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..








Manson has 416 HE and 408 HE prints, as well as 375 HE
He can also make you a resize die reamer from that info.
We got 700 cases in 416 and one more pass if 408s wanted, , 
Going to do lot more cases for these 2 sizes also,
Questions, PM or email. ph 989-644-5228.. 

Here are final specs for 416 HE.
Length 3.32",  belt diameter  ,655",  base dia  .635" , 
length base to to shoulder 2.860" , 30 deg shoulder.Ed


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## Dub

For some reason most of the pics are just showing as "x" throughout the thread.


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## hubel458

Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for  28ga and
410 ga and  32ga with brass cases and higher pressures than plastic cases.
They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with
our 585 case in the action.Guys can get  Magtech brass cases or have
 RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE,
410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc..







Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to original
BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still have
enough thickness in the sides to handle  high pressure,
in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the wildcatting 
work set up so we can do at least hundred a month.
We have lots of 585s,  375HEs,  416 HEs,  408 HEs.....
And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers.






Here's comparison of  416 target cases, 1st  416 HE,  have whole bunch. 
Second is model of what I'd have made  on  medium machine, if I could,  
the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of  230gr.. 
Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by wildcatting bmg
cases, And if  had run long cases, make longer 375 HE necking down 416 .. 







Bryan Litz just recently shot 3 shot group at 2 miles using Paul
 Phillips heavy barreled, target rifle built by Lethal Precision in  
375 Lethal Mag(585HE necked down, very  similiar to 375HE )...
 It grouped 17.5 inches tall by 22 inches wide. 

Applied Ballistics shooter Mitch Fitzpatrick just hit 3 of 5 at 3520 yards,
 weekend 10-13th  at Valdina Ranch , west of San Antonio.
Also used the 375 LM case similar to our 375 HE
Great shooting at the 2017 World's Longest Shot Challenge. Ed


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## hubel458

The 12ga FH case  now is in the new COTW book on
last  page in the wildcat section, I think page 324.
They gave good credit to Rob for the idea of that   case....


The model 416 HE long case in middle, hydro formed one,

has case capacity of 240 gr, and the 416 HSM in picture,

on the right, we fired a case twice, capacity is 320gr.. Ed..







More info out now;  short, fat cases sticking, pockets not lasting as expected.
Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures are bad case
 proportions, too sharp of shoulders, too fast of powders...........
 and  debth of  the bullet into the powder space, as shown in the picture  below..
My 375, 416, etc testing, bullets loaded like bottom one, in longer freebore....Ed.


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## hubel458

Here is case measurements for our 416 HE target case
made from our 585 HE big belted case. Ed







Here is picture of 375 HE left,  416 HE next,  416 HSM right..







Here, tentative specs,  416 HSM case we are doing from bmg brass,








A  375  HE,  with Lawton action, few are being done with those .....


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## hubel458

A 585 HE ...shot  with moderate heavy load......

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t50.2886-16/20404363_470558053312276_3772630570509533184_n.mp4


Here is a 375 HE target gun  set up, by Asteroid Precision...







Here is video of it being tested... And with a 350gr bullet about 3450-3475,

bolt opened easily with one finger...And he's  just getting started

and is checking on  better powder, Ed..



https://www.facebook.com/AsteroidPr...fref=gs&dti=321360231548869&hc_location=group


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## hubel458

Here is recap simple setup  to get faster loads with 12ga sabots

& slugs, Example using break actions...., reaming  chamber

 in a 12ga break action to 3.5" with a 3.5"  12ga reamer, that isn't

 something needing special order, and use 3.5" plastic cases , or

get 3.5"  brass cases made. With mag shotgun primers and

our slower powder loads you can get a  quarter more speed,

which gives 50% more energy...


585 Hubel Express  video, 190ft/lbs recoil, heavy  load,  gun little light.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyS9zZ8ElJA


Another view of  Asteroid Precision's.... 375 HE target gun,







Here is our  416 HSM we are developing next to 416 Barrett, Ed


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## hubel458

Here in picture of the cases, are shown the steps in making

our 416 HSM case, from BMG brass,, Ed







We might have a company that is doing a bolt gun with an action

between BMG size and longer rifle actions used for 375 HE, 

375 Lethal, and Cheytacs.. To use for our  416 HSM without

having to do extreme rebating of the rim.


Here is picture of 620   416 hsm cases half done. Done on cnc ,

that slimmed them down, cut new rim and extractor groove. 

There are over 500 more at cnc getting done now, plus we  have

1000s more bmg cases we make them from, when needed..

This case is public domain and if anyone wants to make

them we can give the steps involved...Ed.


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## hubel458

For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416  easier to get powders to work with,  less problems ..
Maybe building a target gun,don't have  375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....

We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...
CEB and others will have bullets...CEB  will be doing .416 in  450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr

Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as  585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer, 
 did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper,  .021" per 
side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k.. 

I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is 
no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30. 

And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or 
more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually 
hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking.. 

And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have 
15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..


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## hubel458

Here is a drawing depicting the layout of  thick and thin sided cases,
like my 585/375/416 HE thin sided ones and the thick one in picture.

And my 585 case is not perfect,  as where it transitions from the
heavier corner to the side it isn't gradual, so case separates there
shortening  case life. There are others made that way including brand X.
The dotted line is what it should be............






Others have sent cases to section and look at, that are built thick sided and they 
stick also for the folks, If a longer case with about 5 sq in of side surface sticks and 
don't spring back, the coefficient of friction is about .01 then the pull needed to move
 it is 2500-3500 lbs..That is for big cases with normal amount of slant to the sides.

Here is picture of  six nyati and gibbs size cases sectioned.. the5th one is present 585 HE
and 6th is thick sided version. 1st  600  OK which essentially nyati basic case left straight, belt added






In the picture the nyati gma is one we built most of our first 585s on. Before we had factory run. 
Reworking made it in size that is my 585 HE,  but that brass had the sides of perfect thickness, 
not too thick, but thin without sharp transition my new factory 585s had, they  last forever as 585s......

 Fourth one is an older nyati case I used to make about 10 of my 585s from,had thin sides, heavy corner 
and sharp transition from the corner, tested  20 years ago, and they would separate after 4-6 hot loads
as 585s, my factory 585 with right powders, as a 585 will get  10 hot loads, and necked down to
416/375  4- 6 hot loads, right powders used, Moderate 577 equivalent,  factory 585 at least 20 loads..Ed.


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## hubel458

Guy sent thick sided 375 case, next size base  diameter up from Nyati.He said,
'Yes I ran them in a ___________ rifle built by ____, the best I 
could get was 44000 psi, any more and they were stuck''

Big bore guys. other forums over the years related that trex/african case in 585
size, thick sided cases, stuck when they loaded them over 45k psi. 

Another just sent us,  thick sided 375, long case, same base OD as our 585 HE,
416 HE, 375 HE, and Mitch's  375 Lethal, and the thick ones stuck  over 45k psi.

Now you can fill those cases up, with ultra slow enough powder so they won't
stick, but powder is too slow for max speed. Might get a little more 
speed, with thick sides case, but case got to be  4- 4.5  inches long..

. Anyone needing a sectioned case of the ones I made the first of my 585s from,
 contact me, if they want to get a general idea of what case side thickness should
 be, in Gibbs size cases on up to about trex and 375 VM size case diameter. 

Here is pic of our 585 based case next to brand X and thick ones, both have 
same sharp, thinner, corner, where transition from heavy angled corner, to the
 side, the carbide draw rod could easily be reshaped with diamond wheel,
 just by grinding off sharp transition corner.  Then sides would be perfect.., .







Here is picture of 416 HE in a Choate target/varmint stock guy is doing,
using long action BSA U9 action.Setting in stock ready to do bedding..Ed


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## hubel458

Here is picture of  thick 375 case sent to me, with thick sided trex  case, and our HE case,
The thick 375 case is .050" bigger OD base, but inside is no bigger than HE cases..
These thick sided 375s stuck for the guy using them, when loaded over 44,000 psi....






Got guys asking and doing it,  to do 416 HSM  case for BMG actions, so  leaving rim same,
as  the original bmg rim, so  will neck them,  fire form to the longer shoulder, like the others.  
Base a little bigger, Shoulder  same diameter,  same 30 degree slant, neck will be same..

Inside of case still has close to same shape, volumne within 3 % as ones we slimmed down more.
Some want to use bmg actions and can't wait for intermediate actions, or already have bmg action.
And they are really getting interested in the complete line of 416 CEB bullets now being done
clear up to 550 gr...

So there will be 3 versions, one for actions  .750" bolt, one for  .800-.850" bolt,  
And one for bigger bmg bolts. The ones for BMG called 416 HSM2 ..

Here is   416 HSM  guy working in a Montana PH, in a heavy thumbhole target stock. Ed


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## hubel458

Here is sectioned 585  HE case in the middle, we first  made from

another case, years ago  before we had factory run of brass and

 it had perfect thickness on the sides and inside corrner.

We could fire them many times without sides thinning..

First case is  factory run of  our 585 HE,  3rd  is case that is too 

thick of  sides and sticks at high pressures..






Pic of  our factory run cases necked down to 375 and fired 4 times

at high pressure on the right,  with unfired case on the left. 

Our case is not perfect but does work...Ed


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## hubel458

About 416 cal bullets............

The heaviest 550 gr for Extreme ELR probably  be best 8 to 1  twist , in 416 caliber bullet,
and 520 gr 9.5 to 1, and 470gr 10 to one, Some barrels I picked up are  10 to 1.......

Now a novel idea is to lighten rear of bullet with small shallow hole drilled in base, might do better
long range.which would allow 10 to one barrel stabilize the heavier 550 gr bullets for ELR.
Making bullet nose heavier makes it more stable in flight, needing less spin,
like our hollow base 585 cal minie bullets only need 48 to 1 twist, or less
while out regular 585 bullets need about 24 to 1 to stabilise them..............

The winner of the King Of 2 Mile shoot last week was using 416 Barrett with a 1 to 10
twist, with a 500 gr CEB Lazer bullet, ...Robert Brantley, with Manners Stocks....

Paul Philips was third with a 416...

GOOD NEWS-- There is now an importer and seller of our 585 HE brass getting set up here,
 in US, hopefully will be in stock, few weeks........   http://bertrambrass.com  .. .. Caleb Hallet..

Have got another  intermediate size action besides the Montana PH our guys working on,
to do speed testingwith. It is  big long REM style action that can take our 416 HSM, ED


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## hubel458

Experimental intermediate size action with  the Montana PH, for comparison.

It is an experimental action for our 416 HSM, to do our speed testing with

and get a better action than Cheytac size actions, for bigger case ELR use,

without going all way up to more expensive, huge actions.

 It is  big long round style action that can take our 416 HSM, almost

 1.6" diameter action and .800" bolt, with locking lugs nearly as big as most

BMG actions.... ED


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## hubel458

Here is picture of the bolt from the experimental action,

with our 416 HSM case in it. Note the amount of the

base size of locking lugs, the amount of  area on the bolt..








Here is link to guy doing special 585 HE in the EU, 

Good pictures............www.585he.cz

We tested intermediate action with a 700HE  barrel we had here.

Just temporary to test strength. 1000 gr over 3100..

 Action worked fine.. Ed.


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## hubel458

Here is video of early water barrel test of the 

12ga From ****, from years ago.







Here is picture from that video..








Here is the intermediate size action for 416 HSM with test barrel, .Ed


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## hubel458

In 416 HSM  got a 415 gr long target bullet 3800,

with plain barrel, no brake, on intermediate action,

Our 416 HE gets same 415gr bullet to 3300.Ed


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## hubel458

Here is picture of our 416HSM cases with screw in shellholders, 

for Ammomaster, etc, and slip in shellholders for regular presses

Also have some for big LEE Classic and Smart Reloader presses..

A 378 WEA MAG in picture for comparison...


Second is stacks of  416 HSM, about a third fireformed

and the rest  to be fireformed... So far total about 1700, Ed


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## hubel458

Bob Snapp, 90, the great Gun Craftsman, of 

Clare, Michigan, passed away Jan 28th....

He was an esteemed member of the

American Custom Gunmakers Guild,

Being its president in 1992..He liked

working with Martini Cadet singleshot rifles

.Worked with guys testing armor long time ago.

Maybe the 1st to do 20mm necked down to 50cal

We lost a great friend,,,Ed


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## hubel458

.....


It is possible  rig up holders for many types setups., 

About shellholder supply for big cases,

RCBS and others make slip in holders for shotgun cases

that can work or reworked for big rimmed rifle cases...

Here are various sizes.......

16ga-- .810" rim,........  20ga--  .760" rim,....   

24ga--  .725" rim,.......   28ga  .680" rim....

Ch4d and Buffalo Arms also have these larger shellholders...


We fireform the 416 HSM  with 65 gr of medium speed 

surplus powder, with rest of case filled with farina

and grits mix, with a play dough plug in the neck. 

It is  loud, so we shoot it into big container through a barrel size

size hole, so the sound is muffled, so it doesn't deafen us.. 


It is great getting more companies making  416 caliber bullets, 

long target and bore rider bullets. Ed..



....


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## hubel458

Wonder if a PTRD with 5 ft long  barrel is stable enough 

for  ELR ,  rebarrel to 416 and use our 416 HSM, 500 gr bullet ....

.Here is up north guy using 585 HE in a PTRD with inserts,

Light load.....Inserts are in the shape of the 14.5mm  case....








HERE ia video, 585 Hubel Express and water jugs - slow motion

750 gr with 155gr  RE17,  just a moderate load.....Ed


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## hubel458

20mm Vulcan is a big case that works ok, without having 

the sides made too thick...They have  thinner sides

than smaller  cases guys are getting  that have the sides

 made too thick and won't extract easy or work with high pressures.


Here   Barnard P Cheytac bolt that would do for our 416 HSM..Ed......


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## hubel458

Got guys doing  various 416 HEs..

One just  built a 416 HE,  just been  testing it a few days..

And using  168gr of HBMG 475 gr CEB,  tested it, in good 

conditions, 2 shots at 1800 yards and  was within 

a 1/4 of minute accuracy...A few shots at shorter ranges

had same accuracy. Ed..


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## hubel458

More about our 416 HSM  from BMG brass,  and
our  416 HE  &  460 HE  from our 585 HE cases
Got reamers for 375 HE, 416 HE  and 416 HSM,....

 460 HE & 460 HSM are all spec'd, got  HE reamer
soon have HSM reamer...Our HSMs have a Wea type
radius on the shoulder..

The fellow that set up our 416 HE in an ELR rifle
and got  1/4 min accuracy,
They got some game out west over 1400 yds..
.Here is the gun they set up.
Using a  K&P 34" barrel on a BAT action.....Ed


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## hubel458

And have got  460 HSM specs setup,  the impetus for that is some
 asking about one and new great line of  458 bullets CEB now has.

It will hold more powder than the 416 HSM and will get
a 572 gr as fast as 416 HSM gets a 475gr.....Ed..


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## hubel458

The guys that did the super accurate 416 HE did another
416 HE that has an 8" longer 42 inch K&P barrel..

Used a Stiller action and same load with 475 gr bullet, as in
first gun and and gained about 200 fps with good accuracy.
3065 fps. Tested 2 groups of 3 and less than 1/2 min moa.

And loads they used are not the highest speed loads
the cartridge is capable of....Here is  print with specs for
the 416 HE reamer chamber ....Ed....


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## hubel458

More about he guys that did the  accurate 416 HE, they  did a
416 HE that has an 8" longer 42 inch K&P barrel..

Used longer barrel and the same load with 475 gr bullet, as used
in the first gun and and gained about 200 fps with good accuracy,.
3065 fps. Tested 2 groups of 3 and less than 1/2 min moa.

And loads they used are not the highest speed loads
the cartridge is capable of....Here is picture.......Ed....


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## hubel458

Away for a time, sickness..
Here is print with chamber reamer specs for the
 416 HSM  chamber..There are 3 base sizes we have,
depending on actions used. Got reamers for all 3..
Got cases for all of them..
Our cases are public domain, so that is why I post
info and specs.  To help guys do their own setups.
Manson makes reamers I use,,, Ed.


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## hubel458

Here is reamer  print with chamber reamer specs for
the 460 HSM chamber .Couple guys getting set
to do 38-40 inch heavy 458 target barrels...Ed....


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## hubel458

With 40 inch barrel 416 HSM ,475 gr, get  3650,  over 13,000 ft lbs muzzle energy.
Got guys getting set to have 38-40 inch 458 barrels made for 460 HSM.Ed..


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## hubel458

More info on this gun, we did it  for testing 416 HSM  with a rebated rim, 
to check in intermediate size actions, with the longer, stronger,  bolt lugs, Ed..


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## hubel458

Here is experimental action for 416 HSM in a heavy
 stock....We lengthened port a little, set bolt stop back ,
  opened bolt face fit the 416 HSM    rebated rim.  Ed. 




Here is comparison of Montana PH to Pierce action we 
modified to use for rebated rim 416 HSM testing..Ed.


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## hubel458

416 & 460 HE AND 416 & 460 HSM .LONG RANGE AND HUNTING
Can be set up in  Pierce  X10  ACTION for the 416 & 460 HE  
AND X20 action for the 416 & 460 HSM , Can get those
if guys need one...Ed


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## hubel458

Here is picture of my 416 HSM test gun,... It is a big falling block we had 
as a 8 bore years ago. Has a 34 inch , 1 5/8 "diameter, 1 to 10 twist barrel. .. Ed. 


http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmfb.jpg


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## hubel458

WE also setup test barrels for 460HSM and 585, to use in the FB...Ed


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## Ward12constable

Just hear me out. I have a Husqvarna model 51 12 gauge 2 9/16th chambers side by side, that the barrels separated on. The gun is sound. I was going to make a “poor man’s paradox on. I will regulate the barrels with shim and and jack screws at the muzzle similar to the Baikal double rifles. I was thinking of using flush mount rifled chokes with a Fosbery or Minie style conical projectile. Now I don’t want to blow up, but I want as potent a round as I can get for it, and Ed Hubel is the man to ask about this. Any advice is welcomed. I want to keep the barrels at 29 inches. Thanks in advance.


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