# Who are the seed of Abraham?



## Artfuldodger

In Galatians we read that JESUS is the only seed of Abraham yet we also read in other scripture he had other seeds of the promises;

The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring I will give this land."

I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants

and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,

to Abraham and his descendants forever,

And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring

It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring

Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham's descendants? So am I.


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## Artfuldodger

Galatians 3:28-29
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Galatians 3:14
Through Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, so that we who are believers might receive the promised Holy Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Romans 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
15For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

That's a whole lot of seeds or did Abraham only have one seed?


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## Artfuldodger

Galatians 3:8-9
What's more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, "All nations will be blessed through you."

Genesis 18:18
Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.

and through your offspring

I will make your descendants

And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers.

Genesis 28:14
Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring.


remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

What's more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith.


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## Artfuldodger

Romans 4:16
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

But in Galatians Abraham has only one seed.


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## apoint

The Blessings of Abraham seed  is from the time the blessing was given to Abraham. In the new testament the Blessing was pass on thru Jesus to the grafted in new believers.


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## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> In Galatians we read that JESUS is the only seed of Abraham yet we also read in other scripture he had other seeds of the promises;
> 
> The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring I will give this land."
> 
> I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants
> 
> and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,
> 
> to Abraham and his descendants forever,
> 
> And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring
> 
> It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring
> 
> Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring
> 
> Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham's descendants? So am I.



Through the seed of Isaac.


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## RH Clark

If you be Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.


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## Artfuldodger

Then what does this mean?

Galatians 3:16
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.


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## apoint

Artfuldodger said:


> Then what does this mean?
> 
> Galatians 3:16
> The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.



I always took that verse as meaning all of Abraham's seed from Issac on down. God made a everlasting covenant and blessing to Abraham and it was passed down thru all his seed.
 Genesis 17,7 I will set up my covenant with you and your descendants.
 So in Galatians The blessing would be passed thru Christ to the Gentiles.


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## RH Clark

Artfuldodger said:


> Then what does this mean?
> 
> Galatians 3:16
> The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.



The entire covenant is through Christ. The only way to enter into the covenant is by becoming one with Christ. Salvation is more than just believing Jesus died for the sins of the world. Salvation is all about surrender. You must surrender your old life, consider your old man dead with Christ and be born again in a new life, in the image of Christ, one with him.

I'm not talking about doing good works to try to look like Christ either. It isn't about works or keeping the law. It's about allowing the Spirit of God to lead and guide you. You won't always get it right, that's ok.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Then what does this mean?
> 
> Galatians 3:16
> The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.



It's not often we have a verse that explains itself as clear as this one .


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> It's not often we have a verse that explains itself as clear as this one .



The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring I will give this land."

I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants

and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,

to Abraham and his descendants forever,

And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring

It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring

Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham's descendants? So am I.

In relation to Jesus being Abraham's only seed, why was God so concerned with genealogy? Why did he control so closely from Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and on to Jesus?
There is a lot of seeds between even Abraham and Jesus yet Galatians 3:16 says Jesus is Abraham's only seed.

Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.


I can understand that "through" Jesus we are all seeds of Abraham but I don't understand how Jesus is the only seed of Abraham. I think I'm still missing something that you see clear as a bell.


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## Artfuldodger

Genesis 15:4-5
4Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir." 5And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."

Many descendants yet Christ was his only seed?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I can understand that "through" Jesus we are all seeds of Abraham but I don't understand how Jesus is the only seed of Abraham. I think I'm still missing something that you see clear as a bell.




Abraham and his seed ( Jesus) received the promise. Abraham considered the Father of the Hebrews and the land of Israel. Christ is King of the Spiritual Israel, and King over the Spiritual Kingdom which knows no borders.

See: the physical land promise is fulfilled, through Christ, which also received the promise. Abraham and his seed ( Christ).

Abraham's land promise shown fulfilled in Nehemiah 9:“You are the Lord God,
Who chose Abram
And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees,
And gave him the name Abraham.
8 “You found his heart faithful before You,
And made a covenant with him
To give him the land of the Canaanite,
Of the Hittite and the Amorite,
Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite—
To give it to his *descendants.
And You have fulfilled Your promise,
For You are righteous.*


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## Artfuldodger

In response to all of those examples of Abraham's descendants I gave in post #12, those are about land?
The Gentiles being grafted in to Abraham's seed is about land?
Paul's mystery of being heirs is about land?
The natural branches cut off and Gentiles grafted in is about land?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> In response to all of those examples of Abraham's descendants I gave in post #12, those are about land?
> The Gentiles being grafted in to Abraham's seed is about land?
> Paul's mystery of being heirs is about land?
> The natural branches cut off and Gentiles grafted in is about land?



 No, not entirely.


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## Artfuldodger

I'm trying to see this;
Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

With this;
Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Then those two with this;
Galatians 3:16
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.


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## Artfuldodger

Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 3:16
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.


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## Artfuldodger

Deuteronomy 14:2 
"For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Out of all the people of the earth God chose Christians as his children. Is that what this verse is telling us?

1 Kings 8:53 
"For You have separated them from all the peoples of the earth as Your inheritance, as You spoke through Moses Your servant, when You brought our fathers forth from Egypt, O Lord GOD." 

Their fathers were the Christians? Is that what this verse is telling us?

Psalm 135:4 
For the LORD has chosen Jacob for Himself, Israel for His own possession. 

This Israel is the Church?

Or did we as Gentile Christians get grafted into the Jewish lineage to become the seeds of Abraham by way of some of the natural branches being broken off?


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## RH Clark

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm trying to see this;
> Ephesians 2:12
> remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
> 
> With this;
> Galatians 3:29
> If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
> 
> Then those two with this;
> Galatians 3:16
> The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.



The covenant of God never has been by flesh and blood. A man doesn't inherit the kingdom because he is born into it. Paul says that a man isn't a Jew who is one outwardly but who is one inwardly. Circumcision is not of the flesh but of the heart. All has been given to Jesus. The only way to inherit anything from God is by and through Jesus Christ.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Galatians 3:29
> If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
> 
> Galatians 3:16
> The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.



1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Deuteronomy 14:2
> "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
> 
> Out of all the people of the earth God chose Christians as his children. Is that what this verse is telling us?
> 
> 1 Kings 8:53
> "For You have separated them from all the peoples of the earth as Your inheritance, as You spoke through Moses Your servant, when You brought our fathers forth from Egypt, O Lord GOD."
> 
> Their fathers were the Christians? Is that what this verse is telling us?
> 
> Psalm 135:4
> For the LORD has chosen Jacob for Himself, Israel for His own possession.
> 
> This Israel is the Church?
> 
> Or did we as Gentile Christians get grafted into the Jewish lineage to become the seeds of Abraham by way of some of the natural branches being broken off?



I think most of your questions are answered here:http://livingthequestion.org/did-paul-mean-all-israel-will-be-saved-rom/


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Galatians 3:29
> If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
> ↑↑↑ reverse order ↓↓↓
> Galatians 3:16
> The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.



Believers are Abraham's spiritual progeny and Abraham's spiritual progeny are believers; and heirs to the promise only through Christ who is "The" Seed of Abraham.

Failure to see this leads to incorrect recipients of the promise.  Witness the great confusion among "believers".


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## Artfuldodger

"The covenant of God never has been by flesh and blood."

See the thread "why did Jesus die physically?" post #39.
The old covenant was flesh and blood. That's why Jesus had to physically die. The new covenant is spiritual. We become heirs. (Abraham's spiritual progeny) and heirs to the promise only through Christ. I can't read Romans 11 and see a reverse order in when we become heirs.
Or this and see a revere order;
Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

I see all that but how does that explain Jesus being the "only" seed of Abraham? Do we become Jesus? Will we know this when we see him as he is?


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## Artfuldodger

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

Unity, that's what I'm talking about. Seeing Christ as he is and becoming like him.


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## hummerpoo

"reverse order" — 16 before 29 — Paul put Christ first, so must we.


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## RH Clark

Artfuldodger said:


> "The covenant of God never has been by flesh and blood."
> 
> See the thread "why did Jesus die physically?" post #39.
> The old covenant was flesh and blood. That's why Jesus had to physically die. The new covenant is spiritual. We become heirs. (Abraham's spiritual progeny) and heirs to the promise only through Christ. I can't read Romans 11 and see a reverse order in when we become heirs.
> Or this and see a revere order;
> Ephesians 2:12
> remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
> 
> I see all that but how does that explain Jesus being the "only" seed of Abraham? Do we become Jesus? Will we know this when we see him as he is?



I don't agree that the old covenant is flesh and blood. The spiritual was represented by flesh and blood but take away Jesus and the old covenant would be powerless as well.  Everything in the old covenant was types and shadows of the new. It all pointed to Jesus.

I don't really understand what you mean by reverse order.


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## Artfuldodger

RH Clark said:


> I don't agree that the old covenant is flesh and blood. The spiritual was represented by flesh and blood but take away Jesus and the old covenant would be powerless as well.  Everything in the old covenant was types and shadows of the new. It all pointed to Jesus.
> 
> I don't really understand what you mean by reverse order.



A whole covenant/time period predestined if you will for the purpose of revealing Jesus. 


Reverse order was in reference to Hummerpoo concerning when we became seeds.
God said this first "The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed." 
Then he said this "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed."

Therefore many people have it backwards as to "Believers are Abraham's spiritual progeny and Abraham's spiritual progeny are believers."

Kinda like the chicken or egg thing, which came first.


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## RH Clark

Artfuldodger said:


> A whole covenant/time period predestined if you will for the purpose of revealing Jesus.
> 
> 
> Reverse order was in reference to Hummerpoo concerning when we became seeds.
> God said this first "The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed."
> Then he said this "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed."
> 
> Therefore many people have it backwards as to "Believers are Abraham's spiritual progeny and Abraham's spiritual progeny are believers."
> 
> Kinda like the chicken or egg thing, which came first.



Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see anything backwards with either statement.


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## hobbs27

Art, I hope you can watch this. William Bell covers so many of your questions lately in this short video.


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## Artfuldodger

RH Clark said:


> Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see anything backwards with either statement.



It has to do with Election. Abraham's seed(future believers) were already chosen when the promises were given to Abraham. The seed already belonged  to Christ before their effectual calling because the promises were given to Abraham and his seed.

I'm not saying I agree with it, just looking at it with my Election goggles on. If the promises were already given to Abraham and his seed, then random individuals can't just choose to become one.


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## RH Clark

Artfuldodger said:


> It has to do with Election. Abraham's seed(future believers) were already chosen when the promises were given to Abraham. The seed already belonged  to Christ before their effectual calling because the promises were given to Abraham and his seed.
> 
> I'm not saying I agree with it, just looking at it with my Election goggles on. If the promises were already given to Abraham and his seed, then random individuals can't just choose to become one.



You need to take your election goggles off for a bit. It has nothing at all to do with election. All the promises were to Christ, Abraham's seed, singular not plural. The scriptures actually says " He sayeth not to seeds, as of many, but as of one." Everything is given to Christ. Christ is the only elect. The only way any of us gain anything with God is by becoming one with Christ. When I am one with Christ, everything promised to him is also promised to me. In Christ, oneness with him, is the only way I have been righteous before God and also the only way I paid the price for my unrighteousness.


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## Artfuldodger

RH Clark said:


> You need to take your election goggles off for a bit. It has nothing at all to do with election. All the promises were to Christ, Abraham's seed, singular not plural. The scriptures actually says " He sayeth not to seeds, as of many, but as of one." Everything is given to Christ. Christ is the only elect. The only way any of us gain anything with God is by becoming one with Christ. When I am one with Christ, everything promised to him is also promised to me. In Christ, oneness with him, is the only way I have been righteous before God and also the only way I paid the price for my unrighteousness.



How would you tie that oneness in with this verse?

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Considering that there is only one seed. If we die physically before Christ appears where will we go or will we see Christ as he is at that point in time?


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## Artfuldodger

RH Clark said:


> You need to take your election goggles off for a bit. It has nothing at all to do with election. All the promises were to Christ, Abraham's seed, singular not plural. The scriptures actually says " He sayeth not to seeds, as of many, but as of one." Everything is given to Christ. Christ is the only elect. The only way any of us gain anything with God is by becoming one with Christ. When I am one with Christ, everything promised to him is also promised to me. In Christ, oneness with him, is the only way I have been righteous before God and also the only way I paid the price for my unrighteousness.



I don't see how being one with Christ can take away from the individuals that join Christ as co-heirs and heirs of the promise.

Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Regardless of Christ being the singular seed, individuals who "belong" to Christ are Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise.
Gentiles were once strangers to the covenants of promise but are now grafted in.

It still boils down to individuals being Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise. I can assure you Jesus didn't need all of the promises that Abraham and his descendants needed.
Abraham's descendants were the individuals who exchanged the truth for a lie. They were broken off to allow Gentiles to be grafted in.
Making way for the true co-heirs of the promise. Making way for the true Abraham's seed. Co-heirs with Jesus of the Kingdom of God.

There is oneness and unity but still separation in the form of the bride. Unless we become Jesus which I don't believe is possible as we'll be co-heirs with Jesus. When we see him as he is, we will become like him.

Anyway since individuals who belong to Christ are Abraham's seed, it is possible for them to be the elected individuals concerning this;

God said this first "The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed."
Then he said this "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed."


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## Artfuldodger

We can see the plurality of Abraham's seed through Christ here;

Romans 9:7-8
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

What it boils down to is; who are the children of the promise?

Galatians 4:28-29
Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.

If it's the same now_____election? Like Isaac, children by promise.


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## Artfuldodger

Genesis 17:7
I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.

seeds?

Romans 11:12
God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel:

seeds?

Romans 11:5-7
5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.7What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

seeds?

Romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

more seeds

Romans 11:26
25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27"THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

a lot of seeds indeed!

Romans 11:30-32
30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

seeds.

Romans 11:33-34
33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?

Mystery? Unfathomable ways?


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## RH Clark

My brother dodger, you go so many different directions all at once, it is extremely difficult for me to keep on track .

There is still nothing in anything you pose that states that God picks some for salvation and some for CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredation. The scriptures certainly tells us that God has foreordained what he will do for those who are saved. I would also suggest that God knows who will be saved. It is still up to every person to either trust in God or to reject him.

The oneness I speak of is a spiritual oneness. It takes nothing at all away from Christ, for even though we have all in Christ, we are certainly nothing without him.


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## Artfuldodger

RH Clark said:


> My brother dodger, you go so many different directions all at once, it is extremely difficult for me to keep on track .
> 
> There is still nothing in anything you pose that states that God picks some for salvation and some for CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredation. The scriptures certainly tells us that God has foreordained what he will do for those who are saved. I would also suggest that God knows who will be saved. It is still up to every person to either trust in God or to reject him.
> 
> The oneness I speak of is a spiritual oneness. It takes nothing at all away from Christ, for even though we have all in Christ, we are certainly nothing without him.



Let's forget God picking some for salvation and some for He!!. Does God do any other picking? Did God pick Saul to become an apostle? What about events, did God pick when his Son would come to the earth? 
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Those shadows you mentioned, did God pick those events/times/people/nations or was it just coincidences that God was able to take advantage of to use as shadows?


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## Artfuldodger

RH Clark said:


> My brother dodger, you go so many different directions all at once, it is extremely difficult for me to keep on track .
> 
> There is still nothing in anything you pose that states that God picks some for salvation and some for CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredation. The scriptures certainly tells us that God has foreordained what he will do for those who are saved. I would also suggest that God knows who will be saved. It is still up to every person to either trust in God or to reject him.
> 
> The oneness I speak of is a spiritual oneness. It takes nothing at all away from Christ, for even though we have all in Christ, we are certainly nothing without him.



Explain this direction I've been prone to take lately;

Romans 11. Please explain how the Gentiles who were without God and strangers to the covenants of promise were grafted in by the branches removed, Jews who were given a spirit of stupor from God. How the branches were broken off so that the Gentiles could share in the nourishing sap. How when they were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel. Without hope and without God in the world.

The secret revealed from Paul that Israel experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. How the one who rescues will come from Jerusalem and all Israel will be saved.

Why did God say;
this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. 

After Paul revealed the above from God, what did Paul mean when he said;
Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?"
For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.

What are people doubting that Paul has to remind us as to why we can't fathom God ways and judgment?


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## Artfuldodger

this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. 

Psalm 89:29
His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. "If his sons forsake my law and do not follow my statutes, if they violate my decrees and fail to keep my commands,
I will punish their sin with the rod, their iniquity with flogging; 
but I will not take my love from him, nor will I ever betray my faithfulness. I will not violate my covenant or alter what my lips have uttered. Once for all, I have sworn by my holiness-- and I will not lie to David--that his line will continue forever and his throne endure before me like the sun; it will be established forever like the moon, the faithful witness in the sky."


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## RH Clark

Artfuldodger said:


> Explain this direction I've been prone to take lately;
> 
> Romans 11. Please explain how the Gentiles who were without God and strangers to the covenants of promise were grafted in by the branches removed, Jews who were given a spirit of stupor from God. How the branches were broken off so that the Gentiles could share in the nourishing sap. How when they were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel. Without hope and without God in the world.
> 
> The secret revealed from Paul that Israel experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. How the one who rescues will come from Jerusalem and all Israel will be saved.
> 
> Why did God say;
> this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
> As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.
> For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
> 
> After Paul revealed the above from God, what did Paul mean when he said;
> Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?"
> For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.
> 
> What are people doubting that Paul has to remind us as to why we can't fathom God ways and judgment?



Paul is marveling at the mercy of God and how that mercy is not understandable in human terms. Paul did not mean and did not intend that anyone take his words to the maximum extreme of possible meaning as you are doing. His words are not intended to contradict scripture to say that God is responsible for everything that happens both good and evil. God subordinates evil and sin to his purpose but it is not a subordinate element in his purpose.

1 John 1:5King James Version (KJV)
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

James 1:13King James Version (KJV)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Psalm 92:15King James Version (KJV)
15 To shew that the Lord is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

2 Corinthians 6:14King James Version (KJV)
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


I know that there are scriptures in the KJV that seem to say evil comes from God also but it is more a confusion of translation than anything. All scriptures must agree and if they don't agree then one or the other has been interpreted wrongly. 

Take a close look at the Gospels. Jesus went about doing good and destroying the works of the devil (Acts 10:38, I John 3:8). The sicknesses Jesus healed and the devils he cast out were not sent by God. If that were true then Jesus would be working to destroy the works of God and Jesus plainly said that a house divided against itself cannot stand. Jesus said that those who had seen him had seen the Father. You won't ever find a scripture that says how Jesus gave someone a sickness to teach them or draw them closer to God. All that is just religious ignorance.

Look at the scriptures as a whole and see the big picture. Don't try to take a scripture and then try to build a doctrine by twisting the meaning of other scriptures to fit. When people do that they start saying that evil is really good when looked at correctly. The scriptures even tell us to guard against such.


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## Artfuldodger

I wasn't asking about predestination in Romans 11. I was wondering what your take was on the Gentiles being without the covenant of promises, without hope, and without God.
Until? Until some of the natural branches were broken off to allow the Gentiles to be grafted in. Until the full number of Gentiles comes in? How the one who rescues will come from Jerusalem and all Israel will be saved?

After Paul revealed that he said; Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?"
For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.

How do we view Romans 11 as it coincides with the Gentiles elected before the grafting? What does Paul mean when he says "all of Israel will be saved? Why after this does Paul mention the Gentile's disobedience, Israel's disobedience, and that Israel will now receive mercy? That if you don't understand that, it's because we can't truly understand God's judgments and paths?

"For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen."

Well I do see a tiny little bit of predestination it this.


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## Artfuldodger

Have you ever been God's counselor?

Why did God say;
This is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.


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