# why not smokeless powder?



## GunnSmokeer (May 23, 2012)

Why can't somebody build a modern muzzle-loading firearm that uses smokeless powder?
Is there any scientific reason why muzzle-stuffers have to use that highly corrosive black powder, which is banned at all indoor ranges and even some outdoor shooting ranges, too?
I would think that with the right design, and quality modern materials, a gun could be made that would handle HANDFULS of even fast-burning pistol powder.


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## FERAL ONE (May 24, 2012)

there is already one on the market and has been for a good while. a savage i believe.  and i use black powder cause i like the puff and sparks and i like the smell !!!


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## NCHillbilly (May 24, 2012)

Savage makes one already, but what in the world is the point? Just shoot a modern gun if you want a modern gun. The smoke and smell and whole experience of connection to the past is what black powder shooting is about and is what makes it enjoyable to most folks. I have plenty of guns that run off smokeless, I wouldn't want my muzzleloaders to burn anything other than what they already do. I don't have a scope on my bow, either.


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## NCMTNHunter (May 24, 2012)

There is also a crowd called Bad Bull that makes custom smokeless muzzleloaders.  They push 275 grain around 3100fps.  They are built on Remington 700 or Ruger #1 actions and Shileen barrels and will set you back around $4,000.00.  Not too much primitive about it though.


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## Nicodemus (May 24, 2012)

It defeats the purpose, style, magic, and strong medicine that you can feel when you have a real muzzleloader in your hands. It can`t be explained with words. You have to experience yourself.


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## miles58 (May 24, 2012)

I for one own only modern n lines ML guns.   I have owned flinters and cap locks.  I have no "connection" with the romance or whatever you want to call it of the old guns.  I am strictly interested in them for the additonal hunting opportunities they afford me.  About half of Minnesota is a shotgun only zone.  You can use any ML gun or handgun n that zone.  We also have a 2 week ML season in December.

I use Barnes (copper) bullets in my ML guns, I use BH-209 for powder, and fiber optic sights.  Given the opportunity to have a ML gun with the power and accuracy of one of my real deer rifles where I could reach out 400 yards and kill cleanly I'd jump on it n a heartbeat.

I am not going to get quite that performance though.  Seating a 30 cal bullet bare in a 30 cal barrel s pretty tough.  Sabots have limits to the max pressure and velocity they can handle.  Things will improve over the next few years and we'll see more smokeless powder ML guns and better sabots.  Bore diameters will shrink, velocity will go up and effective range will increase.   There are bullets, rifles and loads available today that can handle 200 yards decently.  

Have a little patience and you'll see improvement.

Dave


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## Supercracker (May 24, 2012)

miles58 said:


> Given the opportunity to have a ML gun with the power and accuracy of one of my* real* deer rifles





Soooooooo. Muzzle loaders aren't "real" deer rifles?

There's a WHOLE bunch of deer, hogs, elk, bear and british guys that will be surprised to hear that.


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## NCHillbilly (May 24, 2012)

Supercracker said:


> Soooooooo. Muzzle loaders aren't "real" deer rifles?
> 
> There's a WHOLE bunch of deer, hogs, elk, bear and british guys that will be surprised to hear that.



Not to mention that bison and elk were completely eradicated and whitetail deer were pretty much extirpated from most of the eastern United States with flintlock rifles using round lead balls. They probably weren't good enough hunters to shoot them from 400 yards away, though.


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## killitgrillit (May 24, 2012)

They do make them and I also build them, now before I get flamed I also hunt with an underhammer.
This is a 100yd 3shot group from muzzleloader in pic, 200gr bullet 2700fps


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## Redleaf (May 24, 2012)

what kind of bullets do you shoot in that gizmo killitgrillit?  whats the bolt for?  Details?


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## miles58 (May 24, 2012)

ML rifles are not comparable to nor as capable as a modern center fire rifle.  Yes you can do OK out to 100 yards with a PRB and a bit more with saboted bullets, and most deer are shot within 100 yards, but they don't begin to compete with modern CF rifles.  Or, for that matter what used to pass for CF black powder rifles that are still in use today.

Dave


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## Nicodemus (May 24, 2012)

miles58 said:


> ML rifles are not comparable to nor as capable as a modern center fire rifle.  Yes you can do OK out to 100 yards with a PRB and a bit more with saboted bullets, and most deer are shot within 100 yards, but they don't begin to compete with modern CF rifles.  Or, for that matter what used to pass for CF black powder rifles that are still in use today.
> 
> Dave



A blackpowder rifle might not kill as far as a centerfire rifle, but it will kill just as DEAD.


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## NCHillbilly (May 24, 2012)

miles58 said:


> ML rifles are not comparable to nor as capable as a modern center fire rifle.  Yes you can do OK out to 100 yards with a PRB and a bit more with saboted bullets, and most deer are shot within 100 yards, but they don't begin to compete with modern CF rifles.  Or, for that matter what used to pass for CF black powder rifles that are still in use today.
> 
> Dave



That's exactly another reason that I _like_ to hunt with them-the fact that it _is_ challenging and that you can't sit somewhere with one watching a field and kill deer 400 yards away. I have a good scoped .300 mag that will definitely reach way out there and touch them, and will shoot close to 1/2" groups at a hundred yards. But where's the fun in that after awhile? I have plenty of perfectly good modern guns that pretty much sit in the house most of hunting season.  I have more fun trying to get iron-sight flintlock or selfbow close to a deer and kill it myself. I don't want the easy way out most times. Everybody's different.


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## miles58 (May 24, 2012)

I understand the differences.  I do not appreciate them however.  I use ML guns for "other" very specific reasons.  I'd happily shoot deer at 300-400 yards if the gun was capable of handling the job as well as my CF rifles.  I like that other people are happier with more primitive rifles.


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## Supercracker (May 24, 2012)

ok, so the issue isn't one of the level of "deerness" of the rifle. As all will kill a deer dead within their respective limits. It seems to be an issue of the level of "hunt" in the hunter. 

FWIW, I dropped a big Indiana doe in her tracks last year with a .50 PRB out of a flintlock at a measured 78yds. At the range I see guys shooting "real" deer rifles with optics on them that I would be afraid to say could make a good shot at that distance. I also killed a small buck on the ground at "selfbow close" with the same .50 cal. 



Also, FWIW, there's TONS of traditional BP MLs that can get the job done at hundreds of yards. American rifleman were dropping British officers at a couple hundred yards in the revolution. By the time the "Civil" war came around a 400 yard shot was considered childs play with percussion guns shooting conical bullets. Mr Ribgys specialty was match percussion rifles for, IIRC, 1000yd matches. 

The difference is that you're not going to pick those guns up two weeks before opening, fire a few shots to check the sights and then go hunt. They will require lots of practice. So I guess in a way the modern CFs are "deer" rifles, but in that vein flintlocks are "hunting" rifles.


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## NCHillbilly (May 24, 2012)

I personally think that the reason and spirit that "primitive weapons" seasons were originally started was to allow people who wanted to use more challenging weapons a little time in the field without competition from modern hunters, I don't think it was intended to start an arms race to bring primitive weapons up to modern standards and thus re-invent the wheel. No way could the Game & Fish people who first instituted these things have imagined scoped crossbows, 200-yard scoped muzzleloaders shooting modern bullets, or 300fps compound bows with fiber optic sights. At some point, there's simply no difference any more and what's the point in having that muzzleloader season? Everybody who has hunted awhile and realizes that deer just aren't that hard to kill in most places nowadays finds some way to challenge themselves, whether it's only shooting big bucks, only using challenging weapons, hunting from the ground, or hunting in places where there aren't many deer. It's all good.


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## Lorren68 (May 24, 2012)

I belive as the newer muzzleloaders advance in effective range, those states that do NOT allow CF rifles will soon ban their use too.  The whole point to limiting hunters to ML, shotguns is to limit their range.  Due to population densities and such, as the effective range of modern ML increases, many states will either ban their use or limit the propelant/projectile that can be used.


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## miles58 (May 24, 2012)

Supercracker said:


> It seems to be an issue of the level of "hunt" in the hunter.



For me, there is no "hunt" in deer hunting.   I solve the problems, put up a stand and then when the time comes I wait for a tasty looking one to show up and I kill it.

Hunting deer for me has always been a matter of sitting in a tree and hoping Bambi comes by and commits suicide before I freeze to death.  Sometimes I get lucky and it's warm and I get a nap in the bargain.

I spend a lot of time in the woods deciding where to put up the stands.  I take all the variables I can out of the rifle.  Deer are dumb and predictable.  If I do it right up front, I get to pick and choose the tastiest looking one that shows up.  The big issue is am I going to freeze to death before it shows up.

Dave


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## Supercracker (May 24, 2012)

miles58 said:


> Hunting deer for me has always been a matter of sitting in a tree and hoping Bambi comes by and commits suicide before I freeze to death.



LOL.  Yeah, that's really not me. 98 degrees in the steaming hot swamp sneaking around looking for pigs....No problem, but when it gets below about 50 I'll be indoors. I HATE being cold. 

I also hate heights. So no tree stands.


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## killitgrillit (May 24, 2012)

Redleaf said:


> what kind of bullets do you shoot in that gizmo killitgrillit?  whats the bolt for?  Details?



This is a remington 700 I converted to muzzleloader, it uses a cut down .308 case to hold the primer, I use either hornady or barnes bullets.

 Again ya'll I pour my own roundballs, make my own patches and lube and punch my own felt wads so I understand, I love the smell of 3f in the morning.

 I built this to hog hunt on WMA's with.
So I understand if you dont like it but it is a free world.


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## SASS249 (May 24, 2012)

killitgrillit said:


> T
> So I understand if you dont like it but it is a free world.



That is the bottom line. 

I am as traditional a muzzleloader hunter as it gets.  I have no use for inlines (or even percussion guns) and strictly shoot flintlocks.

I almost always hunt on the ground, and if a deer is further than 75 yards or so I am not really interested in it.  I want the deer to have the chance to know I am there, ambushing one from 400 yards just does not appeal to me.

I was actually opposed to a special muzzle loading season  since I figured it would lead to exactly what it has, people who just see it as a way to extend the season.

All that being said, I have no problem with people using inlines or whose idea of deer hunting is sitting on a stand and shooting from a long distance, it just is not for me.

As someone said, deer are just not that hard to kill and there are plenty of them out there, so there is room for all of us.

I have no interest in trying to sell a dedicated in-line shooter on flintlocks, but it is their loss:


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## killitgrillit (May 24, 2012)

SASS249 said:


> That is the bottom line.
> 
> I am as traditional a muzzleloader hunter as it gets.  I have no use for inlines (or even percussion guns) and strictly shoot flintlocks.
> 
> ...



SASS, I have a flinter, sidelock cap and underhammer and benelli O/U 12gauge cap and inlines. I love them all.


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## Redleaf (May 24, 2012)

so, Is the barrel a .308?  what caliber bullets do you load in it?  You couldnt load a .308 bullet from the front end without a hydraulic ram and a bore sized bullet would be .300.  They aint none of them around that I know of.  Can you still shoot .308 cartridges in it? 



> traditional BP MLs that can get the job done at hundreds of yards


  correctimundo!   long range is NOT anything new and its not just smokeless scoped rifles that can do it.  Lots of talk here about the "challenge"  of muzzleloaders, but one man's challenge is like swatting flies to another.  Unfortunately, your average nimrod  is fairly challenged using a scoped centerfire.  And we can all hunt with any kind of muzzleloader we want so there really isnt an argument is there?


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## killitgrillit (May 24, 2012)

Redleaf said:


> so, Is the barrel a .308?  what caliber bullets do you load in it?  You couldnt load a .308 bullet from the front end without a hydraulic ram and a bore sized bullet would be .300.  They aint none of them around that I know of.  Can you still shoot .308 cartridges in it?
> 
> correctimundo!   long range is NOT anything new and its not just smokeless scoped rifles that can do it.  Lots of talk here about the "challenge"  of muzzleloaders, but one man's challenge is like swatting flies to another.  Unfortunately, your average nimrod  is fairly challenged using a scoped centerfire.  And we can all hunt with any kind of muzzleloader we want so there really isnt an argument is there?



It is a 45cal barrel and you shoot with sabots or sabotless.
I just use the 308 case to hold the primer, this is a cut away to show plug and nipple


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## Redleaf (May 25, 2012)

Ok,  I see now.  I've seen some inlines breeched to take 25 or 32acp cases for primers.   Does it seal up completely or do you get some blowback around that sawed off .308 case?   Sort of an expensive way to build a muzzleloader,  but I guess it does what you want it to do.  I guess it will eject the spent primer/case?  What kind of barrel is that?  twist rate?   Snazzy looking outfit.


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## killitgrillit (May 25, 2012)

Redleaf said:


> Ok,  I see now.  I've seen some inlines breeched to take 25 or 32acp cases for primers.   Does it seal up completely or do you get some blowback around that sawed off .308 case?   Sort of an expensive way to build a muzzleloader,  but I guess it does what you want it to do.  I guess it will eject the spent primer/case?  What kind of barrel is that?  twist rate?   Snazzy looking outfit.


Red, no blow back, it is one of a kind will shoot sub moa and has a good effective range, spent case comes right out and it is a pacnor barrel 1-22 twist


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## Redleaf (May 25, 2012)

Very interesting rifle.  Do you get moa at extended ranges (200+yds)  with that bullet at 2700fps?  what kind of sabot are you using and what powder charge?


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## GunnSmokeer (May 27, 2012)

*thanks, and 1 more*

thanks for the many replies above.

One more question. Is it possible to have a tight bullet to bore fit in a modern muzzle loader--  some new design of one that is make for very high chamber pressures possibly even using smokeless poweder?

I would think that with the right kind of tip on your ramrod, designed to fit the tip of the bullet you are loading, you could muzzle-load a boat-tail copper jacketed rifle bullet.
Sure, you'd probably have to use a mallet to drive it down. Just pushing on the rod with your hands wouldn't do it.
But couldn't you smack that rod down a few inches at a time until the bullet is both seated over the powder charge and fully engraved  by the rifling?


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## Redleaf (Jun 26, 2012)

The  hardness of a jacketed bullet is about 200bhn.  Let me know how you come out loading one from the muzzle.


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## rockman7 (Jun 28, 2012)

Redleaf said:


> The  hardness of a jacketed bullet is about 200bhn.  Let me know how you come out loading one from the muzzle.



after 15 minutes of beating and a possible "pre expanded" bullet sittin in front of a load of powder? might let my mutter in law shoot it but........naaaaaaaa!


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## killitgrillit (Jun 28, 2012)

Redleaf said:


> Very interesting rifle.  Do you get moa at extended ranges (200+yds)  with that bullet at 2700fps?  what kind of sabot are you using and what powder charge?



Redleaf, sorry just saw your post, yes you get moa at extended ranges, using harvester light blue sabots and 63grs h4198


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## Swampfoxoutdoors (Sep 7, 2012)

*reply*



nicodemus said:


> it defeats the purpose, style, magic, and strong medicine that you can feel when you have a real muzzleloader in your hands. It can`t be explained with words. You have to experience yourself.



+1000000


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## stevetarget (Sep 8, 2012)

I have a savage ml 11 that shoots very well with smokeless, its easy to load. I don't have it screaming fast(2350 fps with 250 sst) but it is easily a 200 yard gun. The best part is its not high maintenance.


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## pacecars (Sep 12, 2012)

One of the things I don't understand is why everyone thinks BP is so hard to clean. To be honest I have never had a problem with cleaning black powder whether it was fired in a Lyman Great Plains rifle, a White Super 98, a Shiloh Sharps .45-70 or another one in .40-70 BN, a .50-70 Rolling Block, 1851 Navy, Ruger Old Army or a 12 ga Rossi loaded in brass shells. I use one part Windex with vinegar (NOT AMMONIA!) and one part water and the bore is clean in a few wipes.


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## jackherber (Sep 15, 2012)

Sorry, I am one of those that actually thinks about pulling the trigger on B/P because of the hour I will spend cleaning the dang thing. I completely disassemble it, from the breach plug forward. This involves scrubbing the old anti-sieze of the plug and cleaning the threads. Anyone that says "a few wipes" isn't taking the gun apart.
   All that said, I bought a Savage M/L shortly after they came out. Praise de lor', I don't worry about that commitment when I drop the hammer any more.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 15, 2012)

jackherber said:


> Sorry, I am one of those that actually thinks about pulling the trigger on B/P because of the hour I will spend cleaning the dang thing. I completely disassemble it, from the breach plug forward. This involves scrubbing the old anti-sieze of the plug and cleaning the threads. Anyone that says "a few wipes" isn't taking the gun apart.
> All that said, I bought a Savage M/L shortly after they came out. Praise de lor', I don't worry about that commitment when I drop the hammer any more.



Nope, you're doing something wrong and overthinking it if it takes you an hour to clean a muzzleloader. It's a lot easier and quicker  to me than cleaning copper fouling out of a breechloader. And yes, I take it apart as far as you need to. The breech plug don't come out of a percussion or flintlock, no need to take it out and you're not supposed to. I take the barrel off, scrub it our with hot soapy water letting it go through the touch hole or bolster and nipple, let it dry, grease it up, and that's that. Takes a few minutes. Do you think all the old hunters who lived by their guns spent hours every day cleaning their rifles? Nope, they hit 'em with some water and a wad of tow through the barrel.


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## Supercracker (Sep 15, 2012)

NCHillbilly said:


> Nope, you're doing something wrong and overthinking it if it takes you an hour to clean a muzzleloader. .



definitely. 

I carry cleaning patches with me and wipe really good between shots, so the gun isn't that gunky. Then when I get home plug the TH with a toothpick and fill the barrel with a simple green/water mix and let it sit for a couple of hours while I either eat, bone out meat or bemoan my dismal shooting skills. After that the fouling wipes right out. If it's really bad for some reason I run a brush through the bore a couple of times while it's still filled with solution (messy) and let it sit some more. Swab with alcohol to get out any residual water and either grease it down for storage or reload if I'm going to go right back out in the next day or so. 15 minutes total, tops. Assuming you premix up a batch of whatever you're cleaning and lubing with and have all your cleaning gear handy. I also usually take the lock off and wipe out the pan, but that only takes a minute or two total. 

Lately I've also started giving the bore a good, sloppy wipedown with WD40 patches to help displace any water in the tiny nooks and crannys that the alcohol didn't get. I still get a little bit of residual rust sometimes, but it seems to be a lot less than it used to when I used just water. 

If it's getting stored and not reloaded I liberally use a fairly goopy beeswax/paraffin/lard mix to protect the bore.

99.9999% of my hunting is done with either a flintlock rifle or an 1880s shotgun (will be an original Belgian percussion 12ga also this year). I shoot black powder in both. So I had to figure a way to not spend a lot of time cleaning.  I do pretty much the same thing with the shotgun also, except I have some of those big fluffy  wooly wiping rods (they're way cheaper to make than buy) and soak them with the cleaning solution and leave them in the bore for a while to soak.


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## NOYDB (Sep 15, 2012)

There isn't anything so complicated about guns that somebody can't make it more so.

"Perfection is the enemy of good enough"

If anything you are doing takes away from time in the woods, you are wasting time.


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