# The Gospels of Jesus and Paul



## FritzMichaels (Oct 15, 2010)

why do they seem to differ so much? Jesus never mentioned the word 'grace'. Paul was all about 'grace'.
Jesus said 'keep my commands'. Paul said grace not law...
Lawlessness was condemned by Jesus yet Paul was always preaching 'grace'.

How do they mesh?


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## StriperAddict (Oct 15, 2010)

I see grace in everything Christ did or said, even without the 'word'.
Also... that 'lawlessness' was condemned... in His own body on the cross.  This is the life changing grace that is so profound.  Paul later embellished this in the epistles.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 15, 2010)

FritzMichaels said:


> why do they seem to differ so much? Jesus never mentioned the word 'grace'. Paul was all about 'grace'.
> Jesus said 'keep my commands'. Paul said grace not law...
> Lawlessness was condemned by Jesus yet Paul was always preaching 'grace'.
> 
> How do they mesh?



They mesh very well.
The gospel of Paul still expects obedience.  But the blood of Jesus is added to the equation.
His blood isn't an excuse to sin(contrary to what some would teach)
but nevertheless, the His blood is there as a gift from God.
Forgivness for our failings.


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## Lowjack (Oct 15, 2010)

Christ preach the Gospel of The kingdom to Jews
Paul Preach the Gospel of Salvation to Gentiles who never had the one true God to begin with.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 16, 2010)

Never said this before so you guys can tell me how it sounds.

Jesus taught that the first commandment is "love".  And if we love we will keep the Law.

Paul explained that if we "love" we do not need the Law as threat of condemnation; we need the law as a tool to guide us in the expression of our love.

Grace is the purely benevelant act of God in providing a means by which our love can be acknowledged by Him.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 16, 2010)

hummerpoo said:


> Never said this before so you guys can tell me how it sounds.
> 
> Jesus taught that the first commandment is "love".  And if we love we will keep the Law.
> 
> ...


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 17, 2010)

Jesus spoke mainly in parables about the Kingdom of God, Paul's letters were mainly in regard to questions that the churches had later after he had lived with them and then left to another place and was now responding back. Except Romans, And pastoral letters. I suspect that Paul in person spoke about the Kingdom of God


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## FritzMichaels (Oct 18, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> They mesh very well.
> The gospel of Paul still expects obedience.  .



I agree, I just see this grace gospel running rampant and obedience to Christ put on the backburner or even mocked. Its like the words of Paul were more important than the words of the Lord. That is bothersome to me when people reject the words of Jesus and cling to the words of Paul just because 'grace' is easy and obedience is hard. Anyway, i greatly appreciate yalls input.


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## Inthegarge (Oct 18, 2010)

I believe Jesus spent more time showing Grace than talking about it.. Think of all the miracles... Since Grace is unmerited favor some people mistake it for a license to sin.. So far from the Biblical picture of Grace.....


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## Ronnie T (Oct 18, 2010)

FritzMichaels said:


> I agree, I just see this grace gospel running rampant and obedience to Christ put on the backburner or even mocked. Its like the words of Paul were more important than the words of the Lord. That is bothersome to me when people reject the words of Jesus and cling to the words of Paul just because 'grace' is easy and obedience is hard. Anyway, i greatly appreciate yalls input.



I totally agree.
Jesus was filled with mercy and grace, but quite often after giving that gift to someone you would hear Jesus say, "Go and sin no more".

There was an expectation.

.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 18, 2010)

Inthegarge said:


> I believe Jesus spent more time showing Grace than talking about it.. Think of all the miracles... Since Grace is unmerited favor some people mistake it for a license to sin.. So far from the Biblical picture of Grace.....



Grace is forgiveness of "past" sins.


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## Jeff57 (Oct 19, 2010)

hummerpoo said:


> Grace is the purely benevelant act of God in providing a means by which our love can be acknowledged by Him.


I don't agree with your definition of grace.  Grace is God's unmerited favor.  It has everything to do with His love for us and nothing to do with our love for Him.  For while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.



Ronnie T said:


> Grace is forgiveness of "past" sins.


Past what?  The last time we prayed?  When we were saved?  If we are saved by grace and grace is only forgiveness of past sins then, by your definition, we're still under the law, right?


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## Ronnie T (Oct 19, 2010)

For Jeff.

Romans 6:
 1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
........
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?


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## StriperAddict (Oct 19, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Grace is forgiveness of "past" sins.


 

And also strength to handle the present... as in *Hebrews 4:16*:
_Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
_
"Grace to help in time of need" is for those times when no 'earthly' help will do.  
I've seen a few of those times  !


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## Gabassmaster (Oct 19, 2010)

The Bible is a hard thing to understand. Nice to know we do have some good people who want to know more about the gospel on here.


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## Jeff57 (Oct 19, 2010)

Thanks Ronnie but I think you missed my point.  You and I have had discussions on salvation before and we disagree on eternal security, OSAS or whatever you want to call it.  I don't know if we'll ever agree on it.  Here I'm just questioning the necessity to change the definition of words to better fit your position?  Nowhere in the bible or even in the dictionary can I find where grace only covers past sins.  I also don't see how grace can be defined by our love for God when it's wholly a manifestation of God's love.


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## StriperAddict (Oct 19, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> The Bible is a hard thing to understand. Nice to know we do have some good people who want to know more about the gospel on here.


 
I'd just offer one suggestion, pray before opening the scriptures and ask the Lord to speak.  I'd be specific about the prayer request also, especially if there's life issues to deal with.  He will answer and open up His word to any heart willing to hear.


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## FritzMichaels (Oct 19, 2010)

Jeff57 said:


> Thanks Ronnie but I think you missed my point.  You and I have had discussions on salvation before and we disagree on eternal security, OSAS or whatever you want to call it.  I don't know if we'll ever agree on it.  Here I'm just questioning the necessity to change the definition of words to better fit your position?  Nowhere in the bible or even in the dictionary can I find where grace only covers past sins.  I also don't see how grace can be defined by our love for God when it's wholly a manifestation of God's love.



Romans 3:25
Hebrews 10:26


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## Ronnie T (Oct 19, 2010)

Jeff57 said:


> Thanks Ronnie but I think you missed my point.  You and I have had discussions on salvation before and we disagree on eternal security, OSAS or whatever you want to call it.  I don't know if we'll ever agree on it.  Here I'm just questioning the necessity to change the definition of words to better fit your position?  Nowhere in the bible or even in the dictionary can I find where grace only covers past sins.  I also don't see how grace can be defined by our love for God when it's wholly a manifestation of God's love.



Okay, I agree with you.  But I have to add another verse of scripture to help explain how I agree with you.
Jesus' death on the cross became the "once for all" sacrifice for my sins.  But there are some minor stipulation on my life in Christ.

One of them, for me, is found in 1John 3:1 How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!"

My point in the above scripture is that in 1John, John is writing to children of God.
Now another verse from 1John.

1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
The blood of Jesus was shed for evil mankind, but only for those who would come to Christ as Lord and Savior.
And now, after receiving Jesus Christ as Lord, those who are continuing to walk with Christ are covered by His blood. Or said another way, God's grace.

That, as a person touched by the grace of God, if I indeed walk in the light Jesus continues to purify me.
John also speaks of my willingness to confess my sins.

Paul told me to stop thinking of God's grace as my life insurance plan that will protect me from punishment, but to think of it as the very power that allows me to seek Jesus Christ.

Don't get me wrong, I, as you, believe God's grace is of necessity during the remainder of my life.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 19, 2010)

Jeff57 said:


> I don't agree with your definition of grace.  Grace is God's unmerited favor.  It has everything to do with His love for us and nothing to do with our love for Him.  For while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.



I don't disagree with you but I see how you might disagree with me.  I need to try to explain.

First I'm sure we meant the same thing when I said "purely benevolent" and you said "unmerited favor".  If that is correct, then we agree that the power to give is all on God's side of the equation.  The contrary statement might be, we have nothing to give that is of value to God.

When you say "nothing to do with our love for him" my thinking, perhaps, goes one step further.  Can a fallen sinful man rise to the level of love that is called for by the Great Commandment?  I think not.  Can a fallen sinful man muster up, from within himself, the understanding of a Holy God necessary to cry as Isaiah did "I am ruined"?  I think not.  From where then does the ability to take even the first step, a desire to approach the Throne of Grace, come.  It must come from the source of all that is good, all that is pure, all that is Holy; it must come from God Himself.

I'm drawing a blank on the reference I'm after but a similar one is Jn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him..."

So what I'm getting at is that when I wrote about God's recognition of our love, I was thinking that He provided us with the gift of that love, then (in effect) gives us credit for it.

I truely am not sure I explained myself well, if not, please accept my assurance that I was not lifting up man as deserving anything from the Almighty God.


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## Jeff57 (Oct 19, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Okay, I agree with you.  But I have to add another verse of scripture to help explain how I agree with you.
> Jesus' death on the cross became the "once for all" sacrifice for my sins.  But there are some minor stipulation on my life in Christ.
> 
> One of them, for me, is found in 1John 3:1 How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!"
> ...



Ronnie,  I think you and I probably agree on more than we think.  I, like you, believe that God requires our total obedience but we are incapable and in need of a savior.  At some point we depart when it comes to eternal security but that's for another thread.  Amen to your response brother.


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## Jeff57 (Oct 19, 2010)

hummerpoo said:


> I don't disagree with you but I see how you might disagree with me.  I need to try to explain.
> 
> First I'm sure we meant the same thing when I said "purely benevolent" and you said "unmerited favor".  If that is correct, then we agree that the power to give is all on God's side of the equation.  The contrary statement might be, we have nothing to give that is of value to God.
> 
> ...



You explained yourself very well brother.  I see where you're coming from now, it just didn't come across that way in your original post.  That probably has more to do with my perception.  He's still working on me.


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## Lowjack (Oct 19, 2010)

Did Someone say we are not Valuable to God ?
We are valuable because he loved us , enough to send his Begotten son to die for us.
Please never say that we are not valuable;
There is more evidence all through the Bible That we are valuable to Him, for example, Isaiah 43:3-4. Here God is talking to His people, trying to make them understand their relationship with Him, so that they will trust Him and faithfully follow Him. “3Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all you who remain of the house of Israel, you whom I have upheld since you were conceived, and have carried since your birth. 4Even to your old age and grey hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you.”

God used the personal pronoun I seven times: “I have upheld you…, and carried you… I am he who carries you even to your old age and grey hairs…  I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and [again] I will carry you… He said [again] I will sustain you… and rescue you....”

Not only the Old Testament, but also the New Testament has it written again and again:
•John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
•Ephesians 2: “4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.”
•2 Timothy 1: “8…God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time…”
•1John 4:10: “This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.”
Get the idea?

We know we are valuable to God because of two unchangeable things:
1.God made us.
2.Jesus died for us.
So why are we so hard on ourselves and why are we so difficult with each other?  Life will be better when we value ourselves and value our relationships with our brothers and sisters in Christ!

God doesn’t love us because we are valuable—we are valuable because God loves us! So we are free to love ourselves and love one another because “God don’t make no junk!”


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## SneekEE (Oct 19, 2010)

FritzMichaels said:


> I agree, I just see this grace gospel running rampant and obedience to Christ put on the backburner or even mocked. Its like the words of Paul were more important than the words of the Lord. That is bothersome to me when people reject the words of Jesus and cling to the words of Paul just because 'grace' is easy and obedience is hard. Anyway, i greatly appreciate yalls input.



To me it seems people have a harder time with grace than obediance. I talk to alot of people who cant grasp that salvation is of the Lord, alone, and that it is by the grace of God we are saved. They want to add some type of work to what Christ did on the cross, as if that was not enough.I think, because they can not allow themself to believe that what Christ did on the cross, is all that is needed for thr remission of sins. Once a person is saved by the grace of God, then obediance becomes easy, it just flows from the heart. It is just as Christ said, if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. If you see people claiming to love Christ, yet are not obediant to Him, then you are looking at a false convert. Once a person has been born from above, God gives them a new heart, with new desires, to do His will, to love the things He loves, and to hate the things He hates.  Anyman who has tasted the grace of God, and recieved Christ by His grace, will be obediant. He may not be perfect, but his lifestyle will not be one of habitual sin, nor will it be without repentance. But his assurance or peace of mind will not come from his obediance, it will come from his faith in the saving power of Jesus Christ, and the obediance of Christ, to His Father. Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to the cross I cling, for our most rightous act is filthy as a rag to God. Thankfully it is by the rightousness of Christ, His shed blood, and the grace of God we are saved, and made rightous in Him.God bless you!


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## hummerpoo (Oct 19, 2010)

Jeff57 said:


> He's still working on me.



It appears to me that He is working through you, for which we can all be thankful.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 19, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Did Someone say we are not Valuable to God ?
> 
> Not really, but I'm glad it prompted your post.
> 
> God doesn’t love us because we are valuable—we are valuable because God loves us! So we are free to love ourselves and love one another because “God don’t make no junk!”



Great point, but I've got to think about the "love ourselves" a little.  Seems to need a little more detail.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 19, 2010)

Love your neighbor as yourself.

If I don't love myself I'm not going to love my neighbor very much.
Not in a self-centered kind of way.  It’s about acceptance, self-respect, loving what I am.

Someone said:  If you don’t have a good attitude towards yourself, your neighbor is in big trouble……
People who don't love and respect themselves can be dangerous and unpleasant.


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## Jeff57 (Oct 19, 2010)

hummerpoo said:


> It appears to me that He is working through you, for which we can all be thankful.



What a kind word,  I'm humbled.  I see the Lord gave you and extra dose of fruit #5.  All glory to Him.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 19, 2010)

SneekEE said:


> To me it seems people have a harder time with grace than obediance. I talk to alot of people who cant grasp that salvation is of the Lord, alone, and that it is by the grace of God we are saved. They want to add some type of work to what Christ did on the cross, as if that was not enough.I think, because they can not allow themself to believe that what Christ did on the cross, is all that is needed for thr remission of sins. Once a person is saved by the grace of God, then obediance becomes easy, it just flows from the heart. It is just as Christ said, if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. If you see people claiming to love Christ, yet are not obediant to Him, then you are looking at a false convert. Once a person has been born from above, God gives them a new heart, with new desires, to do His will, to love the things He loves, and to hate the things He hates.  Anyman who has tasted the grace of God, and recieved Christ by His grace, will be obediant. He may not be perfect, but his lifestyle will not be one of habitual sin, nor will it be without repentance. But his assurance or peace of mind will not come from his obediance, it will come from his faith in the saving power of Jesus Christ, and the obediance of Christ, to His Father. Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to the cross I cling, for our most rightous act is filthy as a rag to God. Thankfully it is by the rightousness of Christ, His shed blood, and the grace of God we are saved, and made rightous in Him.God bless you!



You're comments hit home with me.
I've known quite a number of people who, as young people, we taught salvation by works.
It's a continual reminder for them to come to terms with God's grace.  They often believe they'll get God's grace once they've been obedient enough.  

But you're correct.  Receive and welcome God's wonderful grace and it will change your life like nothing else ever has.
The obedience will come in response to happily receiving Jesus Christ.

The scripture:  "If you love Me you will keep My commandments" speaks to the relationship that comes from truly receiving God's grace of becoming one of His children.


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